# Why is defoliation so controversial?



## TerrapinBlazin (Aug 22, 2020)

Things got a little heated in another thread when I and another poster put up some pics of our defoliation. He “schwazzed” the plant and I did something much less extreme. This caused one of the main forum admins to come in and speak out against defoliation, with no small amount of derision towards me and the other poster, I might add.

I didn’t think this was controversial. I thought it was settled science that judicious defoliation virtually eliminates larf. Sure I understand urging some caution, and I personally do it incrementally like the guide in the link describes, except this it was a local friend that showed me how to do this.

I’ll admit I was skeptical but he challenged me to try it and I’m always up for a challenge. I got much less larf and now I swear by it. I know that lots of people are bound to fuck up their plants doing this, but I don’t think that means it should be categorically discouraged. There’s no one right way to do things after all.

I like to grow a lot of indica dominant plants with tight nodes. I get fan leaves laying on each other and restricted airflow if I don’t take fan leaves off. This technique is used in commercial agriculture too. I just don’t understand all the hate. I get almost no larf and it’s never even slowed my plants down.

I’d just like to hear some of your thoughts and see if a consensus can be reached. I agree with this article 100% and think it’s great advice. Here’s some pics of my plants in different stages of flowering, all defoliated almost identically to the method described in the article below. 









Cannabis Defoliation Tutorial To Increase Yields | Grow Weed Easy


Controversial defoliation can increase your yields dramatically indoors... but removing leaves is for advanced growers only! When done wrong, defoliation can kill your plants!




www.growweedeasy.com


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## Spazz24 (Aug 22, 2020)

my last run I defoliated like you did there, for the hell of it. I wasn’t impressed. Bud stayed on the smaller side. All of it. I follow another guy who did a side by side comparison and he had a better outcome just lollipopping and a light inner defol.


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## lime73 (Aug 22, 2020)

defol works best in moderation.

Some just go to the extreme, which is Not the proper "Defoliation technique".

Defoliating is where you selectively trim leaves and branches to form your tops...over a certain period of time, only removing upto 20% @ a time, over the course of a few weeks to a month. Shaping plant as needed...but always leaving most of plant material on the plant.

"Leafing" is term used for removing all the leaves, basically stripping it naked...which is Not defoliating.


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## JoeBlow5823 (Aug 22, 2020)

I defoliate based on what the plant is telling me. If she has waaay to may leaves, some must be removed. Most the time the bottom leaves need to be cleared out but other than that, they can be left alone. And then as they go through flower, they kill off the biggest, oldest leaves first and as those die, I remove them when they look like most their nutes have been sucked out.


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## GBAUTO (Aug 22, 2020)

My experience is that it's best to let the plant tell me what it wants/needs.
If she is sativa leaning pheno that's lanky and minimal foliage I usually won't do anything.
On hash plants and pheno's that have tight node spacing, I strip heavily after stretch.
Some will hiccup a few days and others don't even slow down.,


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## NukaKola (Aug 22, 2020)

I think people take the term defoliation too literally and get the term confused with lollipopping. Some strip the plant completely naked which is not gonna benefit the plant at all. It's like covering half the solar panels on your roof and expecting to produce more energy.

Lollipopping on the other hand is extremely beneficial. Completely strip the bottom 1/3 of the plant. This will get better airflow through the bottom of the canopy and root zone and focus energy into the main buds.

If your plants have tons of large fan leaves that are so close in proximity that they are bunched up causing poor airflow and transpiration buildup then it is wise to do occasional defoliation throughout the canopy as that can promote PM and rot.


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## Trippyness (Aug 22, 2020)

From experience there is a correct time and an incorrect time for defoliation. I use defoliation and have had some bad results with timing. Knowing when to defoliate and when not too for me is what’s controversial. Its also that many believe “ natural” is best when in fact there are unnatural ways of growing for better product.


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## JoeBlow5823 (Aug 22, 2020)

Trippyness said:


> From experience there is a correct time and an incorrect time for defoliation. I use defoliation and have had some bad results with timing. Knowing when to defoliate and when not too for me is what’s controversial. Its also that many believe “ natural” is best when in fact there are unnatural ways of growing for better product.


Mmmm..... Better yield... maybe.... but quality.... ALL natural baby.


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## Oakiey (Aug 23, 2020)

When you grow a giant melon do you strip all the leaves off

Defoliation is just stupid.


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## TerrapinBlazin (Aug 23, 2020)

lime73 said:


> defol works best in moderation.
> 
> Some just go to the extreme, which is Not the proper "Defoliation technique".
> 
> ...


This is my attitude/philosophy. Everything in moderation. One thing I like to do in any hobby is bring up controversial/misunderstood techniques and try to clear up misconceptions. Your post is a great example of that.


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## TerrapinBlazin (Aug 23, 2020)

Trippyness said:


> From experience there is a correct time and an incorrect time for defoliation. I use defoliation and have had some bad results with timing. Knowing when to defoliate and when not too for me is what’s controversial. Its also that many believe “ natural” is best when in fact there are unnatural ways of growing for better product.


I agree with that as well. Some plants have an open enough structure that they just don’t need it. I just tend to prefer bushy indica dominant phenos and they’ll just run riot if you don’t take leaves. To me it’s like pruning any other plant to have better control of its structure. It’s definitely not something that should be categorically discouraged because of old school grower dogma.


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## Hobbes (Aug 23, 2020)

.

I practice extreme defoliation at days 1 and 21 of flower, recently doing a 1 and day 16 of flower with good results.

I copied the method from Black Dog, who get great results - 1.4 grams per watt.

The leaves grow back, except not shading at the nodes like a giant fan leaf - they grow back around the bud sites.

.



.



.

The argument that the plants wouldn't grow the leaves if it didn't need them fails because we're putting the plants in an environment that they didn't evolve in - constant light and nutrients.

Defoliating is no more unnatural than topping, using root pruning pots, Lsting.

. 

.


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## Oakiey (Aug 23, 2020)

Oh my God your plans are naked....

Now your plants got to grow more leaves instead of buds


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## DankMoss (Aug 23, 2020)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> I practice extreme defoliation at days 1 and 21 of flower, recently doing a 1 and day 16 of flower with good results.
> 
> ...


thats hella risky man


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## Oakiey (Aug 23, 2020)

How much photosynthesizing you recon them creamy white hairs do.


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## Hobbes (Aug 23, 2020)

.

We may argue about defoliation but there's one thing we can all agree on - Brawndo's got what plants crave!

.

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.


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## Boatguy (Aug 23, 2020)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> I practice extreme defoliation at days 1 and 21 of flower, recently doing a 1 and day 16 of flower with good results.
> 
> ...


If you dont realize that that amount of stripping is not helpful to your plants, there is no hope for you.


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## lime73 (Aug 23, 2020)

Id still want to see a side by side comparison , with actual controls ...so we can see the results in real time...side by side. Doing whole crop shows nothing but plants recovering. IMO


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## NukaKola (Aug 23, 2020)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> I practice extreme defoliation at days 1 and 21 of flower, recently doing a 1 and day 16 of flower with good results.
> 
> ...


You are stripping your plants of its solar panels which are necessary for photosynthesis at the most crucial times during flowering. The first 3 weeks of flower is when the most stretch happens and your plants are going to be busy replacing all the leaves you chopped. I'm sorry but that is not beneficial, it goes against basic science and biology.

It looks like you are trying to reveg post harvest.


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## PissingNutes (Aug 23, 2020)

The controversy is so many variables and people talking about different strains, grow mediums and styles. I think tent or smaller environment growers also have to consider the effect on humidity in the grow defoliation has.


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## Boatguy (Aug 23, 2020)

TerrapinBlazin said:


> I thought it was settled science that judicious defoliation virtually eliminates larf.


Instead of removing the leaves to get more light to the lowers. One could argue that simply removing those lower budsites/larf would direct more energy to the tops. Kinda like a scrog, or sog, where you are only worried about the tops.


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## MickFoster (Aug 23, 2020)

Before defoliation.

After defoliation.

5 days after defoliation.


These plants produced 24 oz. dried.


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## lime73 (Aug 23, 2020)

depends on the " why " you are doing it.

@Hobbes is doing it to control stretch during flowering. Plus Pm issues During flower. 

If done moderately can benefit. But some go to the extreme Not understanding there are other proven ways to accomplish what your actually "trying" to do.


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## lime73 (Aug 23, 2020)

MickFoster said:


> Before defoliation.
> View attachment 4662518
> After defoliation.
> View attachment 4662519
> ...


I see no difference in before and after, so what is reasoning behind this? 

looks like you just lost a week of growing? They look the same...?


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## TerrapinBlazin (Aug 23, 2020)

Boatguy said:


> Instead of removing the leaves to get more light to the lowers. One could argue that simply removing those lower budsites/larf would direct more energy to the tops. Kinda like a scrog, or sog, where you are only worried about the tops.


True, and I combine leaf removal with scrogging to keep larf to a minimum. I also cut off some lower branches if they don’t stretch. It’s a combination of things IMO. There’s no one magic bullet for getting a huge yield of dense buds and no larf. I feel like defoliation allows me to leave more lower branches on that might just otherwise turn into larf.


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## Apalchen (Aug 23, 2020)

I defoliate my garden hard, and have for years. I don't really feel like arguing about it but I will say if you fill your canopy up the way it should be defoliation is about the only way not to have a larf factory and get air flow inside the canopy. 

I've grown both ways and you need to space your plants out more if you don't defoliate.


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## Boatguy (Aug 23, 2020)

TerrapinBlazin said:


> True, and I combine leaf removal with scrogging to keep larf to a minimum. I also cut off some lower branches if they don’t stretch. It’s a combination of things IMO. There’s no one magic bullet for getting a huge yield of dense buds and no larf. I feel like defoliation allows me to leave more lower branches on that might just otherwise turn into larf.


If i wasnt lazy i would scrog every grow while completely defoliating everything below the canopy. The only scrog i have done yielded more good solid nugs than any other way i have tried. Getting under that screen on my hands and knees to trim and water for months is not something i want to do anytime soon


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## J232 (Aug 23, 2020)

lime73 said:


> I see no difference in before and after, so what is reasoning behind this?
> 
> looks like you just lost a week of growing? They look the same...?


Looks like mainline, he would of removed lower growth tips and fans I’m guessing.


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## Boatguy (Aug 23, 2020)

MickFoster said:


> Before defoliation.
> View attachment 4662518
> After defoliation.
> View attachment 4662519
> ...


Defoliating in veg while in hydro isnt the same as a full leaf strip at week 1 and 3 of flower in soil.


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## MickFoster (Aug 23, 2020)

lime73 said:


> I see no difference in before and after, so what is reasoning behind this?
> 
> looks like you just lost a week of growing? They look the same...?


I was mainlining.
Here they are a week or so later.


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## MickFoster (Aug 23, 2020)

Boatguy said:


> Defoliating in veg while in hydro isnt the same as a full leaf strip at week 1 and 3 of flower in soil.


I don't know why there would be a difference between coco and soil regarding defoliation, but I agree with the rest of your statement.


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## Boatguy (Aug 23, 2020)

MickFoster said:


> I don't know why there would be a difference between coco and soil regarding defoliation, but I agree with the rest of your statement.


You dont think coco or hydro benefits from faster growth?


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## MickFoster (Aug 23, 2020)

Boatguy said:


> You dont think coco or hydro benefits from faster growth?


Yes. But I still don't understand why you mentioned the hydro/soil thing?
We were talking about defoliation.

Edit: Nevermind......I know what you were getting at now.


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## Apalchen (Aug 23, 2020)

Doing a side by side of defoliation against plants that aren't would require seperate tents or tables. Doing one plant beside another in a tent that is half full isn't gonna do anything. 

Defoliation let's you grow plants more crowded together. If you don't have a canopy from wall to wall and you have space between your plants extreme defoliation isn't necessary. If you want to squeeze the most from your grow area a crowded canopy is the way to do it unless your running side lighting. But if you grow a crowded canopy and don't take off enough leaf or have enough light then you end up with a lot of larf, not to mention the problems of not having enough air flow. 

I could give someone the same plant at the end of veg and they might end up with more weed from that one plant than me if they only have a few per light and the plant has plenty of space. But I would still yield more per sq ft of grow space because I can fit 1.5 or 2 plants in the same space that one plant took up. 

To do that without getting a lot of larf I strip the plants hard around day 21, and sometimes again at day 42. 

If you have IG look up the hash tag #mangotech should be lots of pictures demonstrating what I'm trying to explain.


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## Boatguy (Aug 23, 2020)

Apalchen said:


> Doing a side by side of defoliation against plants that aren't would require seperate tents or tables. Doing one plant beside another in a tent that is half full isn't gonna do anything.
> 
> Defoliation let's you grow plants more crowded together. If you don't have a canopy from wall to wall and you have space between your plants extreme defoliation isn't necessary. If you want to squeeze the most from your grow area a crowded canopy is the way to do it unless your running side lighting. But if you grow a crowded canopy and don't take off enough leaf or have enough light then you end up with a lot of larf, not to mention the problems of not having enough air flow.
> 
> ...


Klx on here does a similiar thing. Many plants, closely spaced in a hydro flood and drain. It works for him


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## Apalchen (Aug 23, 2020)

MickFoster said:


> Yes. But I still don't understand why you mentioned the hydro/soil thing?
> We were talking about defoliation.
> 
> Edit: Nevermind......I know what you were getting at now.


I don't grow in soil but I would be worried about stunting by defoliating as hard as I do in soil. I feel like if your plants aren't healthy and growing fast it could def set you behind.

A few days after defol


Halfway done with defol 


Before defol


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## lime73 (Aug 23, 2020)

Defol in veg all you want.
Even some in flower.

Its the " Extreme Stripping " off All of the leaves in Flower, is what I have a problem inderstanding, as we know severe stress can cause issues and possibly affect our final outcome.


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## Boatguy (Aug 23, 2020)

lime73 said:


> as we know severe stress can cause issues and possibly affect our final outcome.


That is where the argument lies. If your grow isnt dialed in, any problems while without leaves would be a killer. Not to mention, most of us amateurs, use leaves to detect deficiencies and other problems. No leaves, no symptoms..... no problem?


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## NukaKola (Aug 23, 2020)

Experienced growers and multi-million dollar cannabis facilities that have decades of combined experience and tons of money and resources into research don't use extreme defoliation for a reason. If it was proven to be beneficial I am sure they would and at this point in time would be a mainstream thing.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.


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## CannaOnerStar (Aug 23, 2020)

Its controversial because people tend to have a black & white view on things and the truth about it is in shades of grey.

There are leafs that might be good idea to remove, rarely is a heavy defoliation a good idea imo, but sometimes it might be. There are various reasons to remove a leaf, but more reasons not to remove one. If you dont know if a leaf is ok to be removed or not, then you should not be randomly removing leafs.

Some of the principles in removing leafs is that if you remove it, the light it would catch ABSOLUTELY MUST be catched by another leaf close to it. If you remove a leaf, the budsite growing from it must be big enough to be able to take care of itself and get enough light to grow. If a leaf is not getting any light and is just in a bottom of a bushy plant preventing air circulation, then its a good idea to defoliate a bit from down stairs, and also remove any budsites from them, because they wouldnt grow big either due to lack of light down the plant. If you can tuck a leaf to stop it from shading, its much better, especially in vegging. During flowering tucking tons of leafs might cause it to be too humid and cause bud rot. blablabla

TLDR; if you dont know what you are doing, dont do it!


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## Hobbes (Aug 23, 2020)

NukaKola said:


> You are stripping your plants of its solar panels which are necessary for photosynthesis at the most crucial times during flowering. The first 3 weeks of flower is when the most stretch happens and your plants are going to be busy replacing all the leaves you chopped.


.

This was exactly my point in another thread - that I could reduce the plants' stretch by defoliating on day 1 of flower (like I normally do), but move my second defoliation to day 10.

The whole idea was to reduce stretch and it did, I only had stretch of 1.5" in the first 2.5 weeks of flower.

.


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## Apalchen (Aug 23, 2020)

lime73 said:


> Defol in veg all you want.
> Even some in flower.
> 
> Its the " Extreme Stripping " off All of the leaves in Flower, is what I have a problem inderstanding, as we know severe stress can cause issues and possibly affect our final outcome.


My plants are so full and growing so fast at day 21 that I couldn't imagine how much larf I would get if I didn't defoliate. Only the top few inches of canopy would get good light. 

When I didn't defoliate as hard I ran a lot less plants in a given area. It works good too, but it's easier to pull better numbers overall with more plants. You still need to remove some inside leaves imo to avoid larf.


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## Apalchen (Aug 23, 2020)

NukaKola said:


> Experienced growers and multi-million dollar cannabis facilities that have decades of combined experience and tons of money and resources into research don't use extreme defoliation for a reason. If it was proven to be beneficial I am sure they would and at this point in time would be a mainstream thing.
> 
> If it ain't broke don't fix it.


But they do, almost all the large commerical grows I know of defoliate. I'm confused where you are getting this info.


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## Boatguy (Aug 23, 2020)

Apalchen said:


> But they do, almost all the large commerical grows I know of defoliate. I'm confused where you are getting this info.


I have not seen a single commercial grow that leaf strips. Please show me a pic of one


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## Wizzlebiz (Aug 23, 2020)

lime73 said:


> Id still want to see a side by side comparison , with actual controls ...so we can see the results in real time...side by side. Doing whole crop shows nothing but plants recovering. IMO


I'm doing a side by side by side right now. 

1 defoliated day 1 and will do again day 21 of flower
2 lollypopped nothing more
3 not doing shit to it. 

All the same strain from the same mother. 

However not clones. Its from seed so it will be up to perception.

Either the training technique works or its a pheno thing. 

So I guess my point is dont mind me over here in my little corner lmao


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## sureshot138 (Aug 23, 2020)

Boatguy said:


> If you dont realize that that amount of stripping is not helpful to your plants, there is no hope for you.


if hes getting better results verse not doing it, how is that not helpful ?


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## NukaKola (Aug 23, 2020)

Apalchen said:


> But they do, almost all the large commerical grows I know of defoliate. I'm confused where you are getting this info.


"Extreme defoliation"

Lollipopping and minor defoliation is common practice. Stripping your plants so naked that they look like they were attacked by an animal is not.


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## lime73 (Aug 23, 2020)

Apalchen said:


> My plants are so full and growing so fast at day 21 that I couldn't imagine how much larf I would get if I didn't defoliate. Only the top few inches of canopy would get good light.
> 
> When I didn't defoliate as hard I ran a lot less plants in a given area. It works good too, but it's easier to pull better numbers overall with more plants. You still need to remove some inside leaves imo to avoid larf.


Agree . That's proper defol technique. 

But I wouldn't take all leaves off.


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## Apalchen (Aug 23, 2020)

Boatguy said:


> I have not seen a single commercial grow that leaf strips. Please show me a pic of one


I posted pictures above of my grow, I'm not posting pics of other people's grows but I learned the technique watching commercial growers on IG about 3-4 years ago. Miami Mango used to post a lot about it. A lot of guys up here in Mi are doing it as well. Some more extreme than others.


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## Metro_Detroit (Aug 25, 2020)

I’ve heard defoliation should be done periodically to make it easier to spray fungicides and pest controllers and decrease the possibility of plants spreading pests and molds. Any validity to that?


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## .Smoke (Aug 25, 2020)

Metro_Detroit said:


> I’ve heard defoliation should be done periodically to make it easier to spray fungicides and pest controllers and decrease the possibility of plants spreading pests and molds. Any validity to that?


That makes sense.
But if I was having to spray my cannabis with pesticides, well..


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## cobshopgrow (Aug 25, 2020)

in organic wine production defolitaion is used to avoid pest by having a better airflow, its quite effective..


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## eyderbuddy (Aug 25, 2020)

only defoliation i've ever done is getting rid of:

leaves on top of each other
leaves shading bud sites
leaves getting almost/no light
leaves blocking airflow
.. combined with SCROG and LST has propelled me to 1.7 gpw (LED) without CO2. But i've no idea if the defoliation has got anything to do with it...


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## BobCajun (Aug 28, 2020)

I just take the really big ones off that are shading buds below them. Ones near the tops that are shading buds I just cut the ends of the leaves off to expose the shaded buds to light, like about the outer half of the leaflets usually. Better to leave half of a leaf than to take the whole thing off if it's near the top. The ones in the middle or bottom pretty much have to go completely because they're not getting enough light anyway and usually start dying off before long so might as well speed it up a little and reduce water usage.

Near ripening time I do take most leaves off so all the buds get good light, just leaving the smaller leaves near the tips, or else the lower buds won't thicken up enough. It also makes harvesting easier because you already got rid of a bunch of the worthless leaf already so you don't have a big pile of it all at once. I try not to take much leaf off until buds are well developed though, not in early flowering. You need a good amount of leaf for solid buds to set up. I found that if you take a bunch of leaf off in early flowering the plant will just replace them by making the leaves at the base of the buds get bigger than usual, so you're really just slowing them down because they have to put energy into growing those bud leaves big to replace the fan leaves you removed. In late flowering they don't bother growing the bud leaves big to make up because the big leaves start dying by themselves anyway so they apparently don't even need them anymore.


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## lime73 (Aug 28, 2020)

BobCajun said:


> I just take the really big ones off that are shading buds below them. Ones near the tops that are shading buds I just cut the ends of the leaves off to expose the shaded buds to light, like about the outer half of the leaflets usually. Better to leave half of a leaf than to take the whole thing off if it's near the top. The ones in the middle or bottom pretty much have to go completely because they're not getting enough light anyway and usually start dying off before long so might as well speed it up a little and reduce water usage.
> 
> Near ripening time I do take most leaves off so all the buds get good light, just leaving the smaller leaves near the tips, or else the lower buds won't thicken up enough. It also makes harvesting easier because you already got rid of a bunch of the worthless leaf already so you don't have a big pile of it all at once. I try not to take much leaf off until buds are well developed though, not in early flowering. You need a good amount of leaf for solid buds to set up. I found that if you take a bunch of leaf off in early flowering the plant will just replace them by making the leaves at the base of the buds get bigger than usual, so you're really just slowing them down because they have to put energy into growing those bud leaves big to replace the fan leaves you removed. In late flowering they don't bother growing the bud leaves big to make up because the big leaves start dying by themselves anyway so they apparently don't even need them anymore.


That's just pruning, not defol lol


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## lime73 (Aug 28, 2020)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> This was exactly my point in another thread - that I could reduce the plants' stretch by defoliating on day 1 of flower (like I normally do), but move my second defoliation to day 10.
> 
> ...


Don't let plants stretch so much before flip and you wouldn't have to Swazz to minimize stretch??

You can train your plants man ....simple.


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## DaFreak (Aug 28, 2020)

Hobbes said:


> The argument that the plants wouldn't grow the leaves if it didn't need them fails because we're putting the plants in an environment that they didn't evolve in - constant light and nutrients.


If plants don't need leafs then do a cycle and remove the leafs throughout the grow and prove the argument wrong. You wouldn't do that would you? Because you accept that they do in fact need leafs. So no, your above statement is not well worded or thought out.


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## JoeBlow5823 (Aug 28, 2020)

DaFreak said:


> If plants don't need leafs then do a cycle and remove the leafs throughout the grow and prove the argument wrong. You wouldn't do that would you? Because you accept that they do in fact need leafs. So no, your above statement is not well worded or thought out.


Not to mention that weed has evolved in an environment of constant light and nutrients for the last 30-40 years. Especially the last 10-20 years.


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## DaFreak (Aug 29, 2020)

Not much evolution happens in 40 years though. Leafs are not gallbladders. The other thread that got silly I did learn one thing though, that plants are designed with redundancy because of natural damage and have approximately 20% more fan leafs then they need. I had never read that and I am curious how close to 20% all these people who claim success are.


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## Boatguy (Aug 29, 2020)

DaFreak said:


> Not much evolution happens in 40 years though.


With indoor growing conditions 40yrs is more like 120, assuming 3 cycles. Still not very long


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## DaFreak (Aug 29, 2020)

We’re talking dog years?


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## Boatguy (Aug 29, 2020)

DaFreak said:


> We’re talking dog years?


? 
Indoors you can veg and flower 3 times in a year. Outdoors, naturally would have 1 cycle


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## JoeBlow5823 (Aug 29, 2020)

DaFreak said:


> Not much evolution happens in 40 years though.


Please.... tell me more about how little marijuana evolved from 1977 to 2017.

High times. 1977.


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## DaFreak (Aug 29, 2020)

Joe can't tell if you are joking because net doesn't do sarcasm, but growing knowledge has evolved for sure. Take any of the strains and grow them with the knowledge we have today and they wouldn't look like that....plus its high times.


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## JoeBlow5823 (Aug 29, 2020)

DaFreak said:


> Joe can't tell if you are joking because net doesn't do sarcasm, but growing knowledge has evolved for sure. Take any of the strains and grow them with the knowledge we have today and they wouldn't look like that....plus its high times.


Putting a seed in some good soil in California hasn't changed much in the last 40 years.


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## DaFreak (Aug 29, 2020)

So have you breed a marijuana plant to no longer need leafs? Is that what you are saying?


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## JoeBlow5823 (Aug 29, 2020)

DaFreak said:


> So have you breed a marijuana plant to no longer need leafs? Is that what you are saying?


What?


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## Boatguy (Aug 29, 2020)

Assuming it is directed at me. I posted nothing that had anything to do with leaf removal.
I think @DaFreak is just looking to argue.


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## .Smoke (Aug 29, 2020)

Simple answer OP?
Because most people f%ck it up.


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## BobCajun (Aug 29, 2020)

lime73 said:


> That's just pruning, not defol lol


Oh yeah, valid point. Okay, my advice is to trim rather than defol, because all it does is set the plant back about a week while it refols.


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## BobCajun (Aug 29, 2020)

JoeBlow5823 said:


> Please.... tell me more about how little marijuana evolved from 1977 to 2017.
> 
> High times. 1977.
> 
> View attachment 4668010


Yeah those buds were crappy as hell, it's mostly leaf. That Guerrero Gold is the worst bud I've ever seen. Who bought that crud huh? I can see why they called it "grass" in those days. Thank goodness for Indica hybrids. Not pure Indica, because the smell was not good and the buds too leafy and woody, but hybrids. Not leafy like Guerrero, but leafy as in large bud leaves instead of little ones.


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## Apalchen (Aug 29, 2020)

DaFreak said:


> Not much evolution happens in 40 years though. Leafs are not gallbladders. The other thread that got silly I did learn one thing though, that plants are designed with redundancy because of natural damage and have approximately 20% more fan leafs then they need. I had never read that and I am curious how close to 20% all these people who claim success are.


I'm way over 20% and claiming success. I doubt I even leave 20%. Like I explained before taking so much off is a different gardening style that only benefits a really full canopy. Otherwise I'd have nice top buds and a garden full of larf.


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 29, 2020)

Apalchen said:


> I'm way over 20% and claiming success. I doubt I even leave 20%. Like I explained before taking so much off is a different gardening style that only benefits a really full canopy. Otherwise I'd have nice top buds and a garden full of larf.


It was this or bud rot, mildew and cotton balls. I'll take the hand grenades across the board.


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## mordynyc (Aug 29, 2020)

I use a fan. 
I only take off large top mid fan leaves blocking light. 
I sort of shwazzed an auto once due to feeding it too much n i took off all fan leaves but the auxiliary branches had smaller buds. 
Why take down solar panels when u don't need to?


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## DaFreak (Aug 30, 2020)

Boatguy said:


> Assuming it is directed at me. I posted nothing that had anything to do with leaf removal.
> I think @DaFreak is just looking to argue.


Didn't even read your post or knew you were in this thread. Have we spoke before? I have to admit, if you don't have a catchy name or avatar I most likely don't remember you. But no, nothing was directed at you.


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## DaFreak (Aug 30, 2020)

Apalchen said:


> I'm way over 20% and claiming success. I doubt I even leave 20%. Like I explained before taking so much off is a different gardening style that only benefits a really full canopy. Otherwise I'd have nice top buds and a garden full of larf.


Have you tried lollitopping and getting rid of buds that would become larf before flipping? So many growers who don't get larf and don't defoliate.


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## DaFreak (Aug 30, 2020)

JoeBlow5823 said:


> What?


Well I am saying that plants have evolved over millennium to use photosynthesis and you point to a high times fold out page. So my question to you when you seem to be saying they have evolved so much in 40 years is have you breed a plant to not need photosynthesis?


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## Apalchen (Aug 30, 2020)

DaFreak said:


> Have you tried lollitopping and getting rid of buds that would become larf before flipping? So many growers who don't get larf and don't defoliate.


I do lollipop but I grow my canopy super full on purpose. I tried to get some pictures to show what I mean. The video I screen shot was from last night which was day 13 of flower, so they still have another 8 days of filling in and stretching even more. With a garden this full it would be a mess if you didn't defoliate. The bottom18 inches or so of my plants have been stripped bare, and I'll take the rest of the branches that aren't gonna do anything on day 21 when I do the leaf strip.


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## Apalchen (Aug 30, 2020)

DaFreak said:


> Well I am saying that plants have evolved over millennium to use photosynthesis and you point to a high times fold out page. So my question to you when you seem to be saying they have evolved so much in 40 years is have you breed a plant to not need photosynthesis?


In my experience the remaining leaves that are left at the bud sites take over fairly quick but the stems don't grow as long on those leaves so they aren't all out in the way shading everything. Within a few days plants are back to drinking the same amount of water. But as you can see from my pictures there are plenty of bud sites and the plants have grown enough by day 21 that slowing down growth for a couple days doesn't hurt anything and by allowing light to be able to get to middle and lower part of the canopy it makes for better overall buds and yield.


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 30, 2020)

Apalchen said:


> In my experience the remaining leaves that are left at the bud sites take over fairly quick but the stems don't grow as long on those leaves so they aren't all out in the way shading everything. Within a few days plants are back to drinking the same amount of water. But as you can see from my pictures there are plenty of bud sites and the plants have grown enough by day 21 that slowing down growth for a couple days doesn't hurt anything and by allowing light to be able to get to middle and lower part of the canopy it makes for better overall buds and yield.


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## JoeBlow5823 (Aug 30, 2020)

DaFreak said:


> Well I am saying that plants have evolved over millennium to use photosynthesis and you point to a high times fold out page. So my question to you when you seem to be saying they have evolved so much in 40 years is have you breed a plant to not need photosynthesis?


I dont know why you think I'm saying weed has been breed to not need photosynthesis.


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## Jeffislovinlife (Aug 30, 2020)

The two on the out side about 4 1/2 weeks the one in the middle is a week Into flower


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## DaFreak (Aug 30, 2020)

That’s not nearly lollitopping in those pics. I would cut off all nodes below the net and train till first buds.


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 30, 2020)

DaFreak said:


> That’s not nearly lollitopping in those pics. I would cut off all nodes below the net and train till first buds.


Lollipops are treats on the end of a stick. Doesn't matter if it is above or below the net. Just light availability. But I thank you for sharing.


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## rkymtnman (Aug 30, 2020)

Jeffislovinlife said:


> The two on the out side about 4 1/2 weeks the one in the middle is a week Into flowerView attachment 4669251


do all outdoors growers defol too? seems like a waste of time. the sun moves throughtout the sky during the day and seems like it would hit all parts of the plant. or is that not true??

i don't defol at all. top buds get vaped, larfy buds get made into water hash.


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## Jeffislovinlife (Aug 30, 2020)

Well my lady's are indoor and outdoor I'm of the opinion of letting the ladies do what they do but I got mites and I took there happy home and they seem to be loving it


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 30, 2020)

rkymtnman said:


> do all outdoors growers defol too? seems like a waste of time. the sun moves throughtout the sky during the day and seems like it would hit all parts of the plant. or is that not true??
> 
> i don't defol at all. top buds get vaped, larfy buds get made into water hash.


Only when they get to dense or you are forced to grow too many in a small space. And I believe all mature shade leaves from the bottom to about two thirds the plants height should be removed by week three or flower with photos. Improves health and development in my opinion.


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## rkymtnman (Aug 30, 2020)

MICHI-CAN said:


> Doesn't matter if it is above or below the net. Just light availability


i agree. instead of cutting every thing off below or above some imaginary line, run some strips as side light and get full coverage.


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## rkymtnman (Aug 30, 2020)

MICHI-CAN said:


> Only when they get to dense or you are forced to grow too many in a small space. And I believe all mature shade leaves from the bottom to about two thirds the plants height should be removed by week three or flower with photos. Improves health and development in my opinion.


iv'e never done an outdoor plant so i was just curious why defol would be done. indoors i get the concept but don't follow it.


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 30, 2020)

rkymtnman said:


> iv'e never done an outdoor plant so i was just curious why defol would be done. indoors i get the concept but don't follow it.


To each their own. Just has seriously increased my trimming times. Veg. and harvest. But the consistency of palm size nuggets is worth it. Try it out and see if you can improve your yield. Just a suggestion. Peace.


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## Jeffislovinlife (Aug 30, 2020)

I was trying to find out to sorry I'll keep quiet and try and learn something as always thank you for your time and help


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 30, 2020)

Jeffislovinlife said:


> I was trying to find out to sorry I'll keep quiet and try and learn something as always thank you for your time and help


Ask. How can we, the community help?


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## rkymtnman (Aug 30, 2020)

Jeffislovinlife said:


> I was trying to find out to sorry I'll keep quiet and try and learn something as always thank you for your time and help


i wasn't trying to muzzle you but here's a question for all outdoor growers and defol:

let's assume that you have all your plants in a row and the majority of the sun they get is from due South. are the buds on the North side of the plant tiny and airy? from all the pics i've seen, the buds are pretty uniform the whole 360 deg of the plant. 

another reason i don't defol indoors is that im at 8800 ft and things just grow slower up here. and IMO, defol is stress that the plants don't need when they are doing their best just to thrive.


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## Jeffislovinlife (Aug 30, 2020)

Just thought I should listen a little more but don't you think that all of them little bud take away from the main bud site's


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## rkymtnman (Aug 30, 2020)

Jeffislovinlife said:


> Just thought I should listen a little more but don't you think that all of them little bud take away from the main bud site's


i'm in the camp that thinks that if you have enough leaves and enough light, that even the lower buds should be pretty good and solid. 
i'm not sure there is a "right" answer because it depends on mnay variables


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## Jeffislovinlife (Aug 30, 2020)

Algood my ladies seems to get new bud site's the hole time if I let them they block my 2000 watt's philzon light


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## Dilago (Aug 30, 2020)

I defoliated my plants this current round and it looks promising!


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## Silky T (Aug 30, 2020)

TerrapinBlazin said:


> Things got a little heated in another thread when I and another poster put up some pics of our defoliation. He “schwazzed” the plant and I did something much less extreme. This caused one of the main forum admins to come in and speak out against defoliation, with no small amount of derision towards me and the other poster, I might add.
> 
> I didn’t think this was controversial. I thought it was settled science that judicious defoliation virtually eliminates larf. Sure I understand urging some caution, and I personally do it incrementally like the guide in the link describes, except this it was a local friend that showed me how to do this.
> 
> ...


Wow, did you catch the plant he defoliated? It's just ONE plant! In that tiny medium. He's been growing weed for AWHILE! I'm attaching his photo.


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 30, 2020)

Silky T said:


> Wow, did you catch the plant he defoliated? It's just ONE plant! In that tiny medium. He's been growing weed for AWHILE! I'm attaching his photo.


Nice plant. Took some knowledge. Props to that. But a 29 gallon tote is not tiny. You can raise a few Tilapia in there for munchies. Love it.


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## Horselover fat (Aug 30, 2020)

I'm trying new (new to me) things.

22nd august


23rd


30th


During the eight days I removed a lot of leafs and tens of growth tips.

Edit: first 12 hour night was 28th/29th


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## DaFreak (Aug 30, 2020)

Lollitopping is a common training term. Remove all but the top few nodes to resemble a lollipop. Michican you know this, why even pretend you don't? I've found it very helpful growing in closets/tents where there is one light and no side lighting. But again, it's done before the flip. Seems crazy to me to leave all those sites below and try to get light to them that will be a lot weaker than the light above because of physics. Almost useless light on the bottom.


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## mackdx (Aug 30, 2020)

NukaKola said:


> Lollipopping and minor defoliation is common practice. Stripping your plants so naked that they look like they were attacked by an animal is not.


But you can buy a $500 book that will show you to do it.....


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 30, 2020)

I know my methods are controversial. But effective. Beyond that I know nothing.


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## Apalchen (Aug 30, 2020)

DaFreak said:


> Lollitopping is a common training term. Remove all but the top few nodes to resemble a lollipop. Michican you know this, why even pretend you don't? I've found it very helpful growing in closets/tents where there is one light and no side lighting. But again, it's done before the flip. Seems crazy to me to leave all those sites below and try to get light to them that will be a lot weaker than the light above because of physics. Almost useless light on the bottom.


I've done this a bit too but the stronger the lights I use are the less I take off on the bottom. And also sometimes it's strain dependant, my current grow is all one strain and it always produces fat dense lowers so I leave a bit more on.

With a 600 watt hps or a 315 cmh I strip all but the very few top nodes because other wise the penetration just isn't there to grow nice buds down lower after the stretch.

With the 1000 watt de I can get a bit more penetration. So I leave more on. I know you can't tell because of how thick the trellis is but there isn't much under that first level of trellis I do leave a bit more on the isle as they will get good light from being on the isle. I'll come back and post some pics after the leaf strip in a week. At that point you can better see what is going on with the plants as of now all the leaves make it hard to see.

I'm shooting for a 5x18ish canopy that is roughly 3 ft deep on each side of the room. We shall see this is my first time trellising this strain I usually stake them.

EDIT: all that being said the bottom 16-18 inches of my plants are stripped.


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## Apalchen (Aug 30, 2020)

Sorry for the glare but I tried to get a pic where you could clearly see how much I took off underneath. Like I said this is my first time running this strain in the new room and with trellis. But I've run it a good bit and it always chunks up on the bottom. Depending how this run goes I can always adjust for more or less on the bottom next time.

Also when I defoliate in a week I'll take any branches that I can tell won't amount to anything.


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 30, 2020)




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## Theman5 (Aug 31, 2020)

Trippyness said:


> From experience there is a correct time and an incorrect time for defoliation. I use defoliation and have had some bad results with timing. Knowing when to defoliate and when not too for me is what’s controversial. Its also that many believe “ natural” is best when in fact there are unnatural ways of growing for better product.


Agreed. All about the yield my man


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 31, 2020)

Theman5 said:


> Agreed. All about the yield my man


My routine is 1 week prior to flip. Then right up until week 5. But progressively lighter after week 3. The plant and instincts will tell you when and what if you take the time to learn. Haven't seen a "set it and forget" system yet.


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## Theman5 (Aug 31, 2020)

Theman5 said:


> Agreed. All about the yield my man





MICHI-CAN said:


> My routine is 1 week prior to flip. Then right up until week 5. But progressively lighter after week 3. The plant and instincts will tell you when and what if you take the time to learn. Haven't seen a "set it and forget" system yet.


In terms of percentage. How much would u say your taking off 1 week before flipping?


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 31, 2020)

Theman5 said:


> In terms of percentage. How much would u say your taking off 1 week before flipping?


I have would say 60% indoors and 35-40% out doors. But that has variables. Node spacing, density, growth patterns and shading. It is an acquired skill. Most people lack the actual time and effort it takes to truly be comfortable with it. Most people stumble and curse it. I got up repeatedly lost yield to learn. Now have better yields than ever for plant maturity. Have no step by step. Just a vague time frame and logic for it. Apologies.


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## Theman5 (Aug 31, 2020)

MICHI-CAN said:


> I have would say 60% indoors and 35-40% out doors. But that has variables. Node spacing, density, growth patterns and shading. It is an acquired skill. Most people lack the actual time and effort it takes to truly be comfortable with it. Most people stumble and curse it. I got up repeatedly lost yield to learn. Now have better yields than ever for plant maturity. Have no step by step. Just a vague time frame and logic for it. Apologies.





MICHI-CAN said:


> I have would say 60% indoors and 35-40% out doors. But that has variables. Node spacing, density, growth patterns and shading. It is an acquired skill. Most people lack the actual time and effort it takes to truly be comfortable with it. Most people stumble and curse it. I got up repeatedly lost yield to learn. Now have better yields than ever for plant maturity. Have no step by step. Just a vague time frame and logic for it. Apologies.


I plan on doing this on my first grow. Probably go 40-50% until i get more comfortable.


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 31, 2020)

MICHI-CAN said:


> I have would say 60% indoors and 35-40% out doors. But that has variables. Node spacing, density, growth patterns and shading. It is an acquired skill. Most people lack the actual time and effort it takes to truly be comfortable with it. Most people stumble and curse it. I got up repeatedly lost yield to learn. Now have better yields than ever for plant maturity. Have no step by step. Just a vague time frame and logic for it. Apologies.


I'm a little too comfortable with it. LMAO!


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## Theman5 (Aug 31, 2020)

Lol. Shit man thats hardcore.


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 31, 2020)

Theman5 said:


> I plan on doing this on my first grow. Probably go 40-50% until i get more comfortable.


Only concrete rule is nothing above the 5th node from the top indoors. And nothing above 3/4 the height of an outdoor plant. Mature shade leaves below that are fair game.


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## Theman5 (Aug 31, 2020)

MICHI-CAN said:


> Only concrete rule is nothing above the 5th node from the top indoors. And nothing above 3/4 the height of an outdoor plant. Mature shade leaves below that are fair game.


K im going indoor. Any tip for this noob will be most appreciated. Plan on using led with veg flower switch. 1000w led BestVA probably 8 lights for 10-15 plants


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 31, 2020)

Theman5 said:


> Lol. Shit man thats hardcore.


Just another day in my jungle. They are weeds. Not Swiss time pieces. Simple Natural laws. Take the science and "look at me" out. Anyone can do it if committed to the basics.


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## Boatguy (Aug 31, 2020)

C


MICHI-CAN said:


> Just another day in my jungle. They are weeds. Not Swiss time pieces. Simple Natural laws. Take the science and "look at me" out. Anyone can do it if committed to the basics.


Curious.. Are your outdoor plants flowering? Im at latitude 47 in the northeast, and mine are not


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 31, 2020)

Boatguy said:


> C
> 
> Curious.. Are your outdoor plants flowering? Im at latitude 47 in the northeast, and mine are not


S.W. MI. About 4 weeks in. But I only get maybe 80% light the last 3-4 hrs a day. I dont know latitude and to lazy to google.


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 31, 2020)

Theman5 said:


> K im going indoor. Any tip for this noob will be most appreciated. Plan on using led with veg flower switch. 1000w led BestVA probably 8 lights for 10-15 plants


How big is the space? What are the lights?Message me. I have stole the post long enough. Sincerest gratitude and apologies to the OP. Hope I gave you something worthwhile.


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## Theman5 (Aug 31, 2020)

I dont no how to private message. Im new, maybe it hasnt been unlocked?


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 31, 2020)

Boatguy said:


> C
> 
> Curious.. Are your outdoor plants flowering? Im at latitude 47 in the northeast, and mine are not


I'm giving you Northern states outdoor grow secret here. Plant on the East side of a building within 20 feet. Will help to early flower and possibly actually finish without help. Not hemp friendly in the north. Gives you a 2 week head start and some protection from the winds.


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## Gorillabilly (Aug 31, 2020)

I defol. Lollipop and then trim for adequate light penitratuon


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 31, 2020)

Gorillabilly said:


> I defol. Lollipop and then trim for adequate light penitratuon


That's my goal. Light equals energy. And I believe mature lower shade leaves take more than they give. Just can't recall the thesis paper and study I read.


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## Gorillabilly (Aug 31, 2020)

MICHI-CAN said:


> That's my goal. Light equals energy. And I believe mature lower shade leaves take more than they give. Just can't recall the thesis paper and study I read.


Yea, I think some of the controversy around defoliation comes from light type. LED doesn't penitrate as well as hps so weed under an LED benifits from some trimming where its not needed as much with hps.


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 31, 2020)

Gorillabilly said:


> Yea, I think some of the controversy around defoliation comes from light type. LED doesn't penitrate as well as hps so weed under an LED benifits from some trimming where its not needed as much with hps.


Having come from a time before HID I don't agree. Example being: What happens when you top? You get double the growth. Same principles apply to "defoliating". We called it defensive growth when I worked in a commercial greenhouse 35 years ago. It's a natural defense response to natural predation. How else would the plant survive in the wild? A lot of really high level growers are clueless. Yet they all promote topping??????


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 31, 2020)

MICHI-CAN said:


> Having come from a time before HID I don't agree. Example being: What happens when you top? You get double the growth. Same principles apply to "defoliating". We called it defensive growth when I worked in a commercial greenhouse 35 years ago. It's a natural defense response to natural predation. How else would the plant survive in the wild? A lot of really high level growers are clueless. Yet they all promote topping??????


I forgot to ask if HPS don't cast shadows. Sorry.


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## Boatguy (Aug 31, 2020)

MICHI-CAN said:


> I'm giving you Northern states outdoor grow secret here. Plant on the East side of a building within 20 feet. Will help to early flower and possibly actually finish without help. Not hemp friendly in the north. Gives you a 2 week head start and some protection from the winds.


My yard faces east to west. veggie garden is out of hand.
Just curious if your outdoor plants are flowering. Are you in michigan?


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## MICHI-CAN (Aug 31, 2020)

Boatguy said:


> My yard faces east to west. veggie garden is out of hand.
> Just curious if your outdoor plants are flowering. Are you in michigan?


Yes. Flowering? Yes. Everything but my fall blooming decorative flowers.


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## Apalchen (Sep 7, 2020)

Well the net makes it way harder to reach stuff since I don't have rolling tables it's hard to get as much leaf as when I just had stakes. I got a 1/4 of the room done last night. I'll try to finish as much as possible tonight but it will likely take me 3 days to get it all done. I'll try to get some pics while under the canopy tonight to show how full and shaded it is underneath. I noticed a few of the leaves seemed rather wet down inside the canopy so again I do this mostly for light penetration but believe I would have mold issues as well if left so thick. 
Side not done yet

Already defoliated side

Very front of the trellis not as full as it should be but I got a little overzealous when building trellis and it's a foot longer than it really should be it thickens up as it gets closer to the light.


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## Rob Roy (Sep 8, 2020)

JoeBlow5823 said:


> Please.... tell me more about how little marijuana evolved from 1977 to 2017.
> 
> High times. 1977.
> 
> View attachment 4668010


Thanks for the memories. Makes me want to put on my bell bottoms and get out the black light!


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## MICHI-CAN (Sep 9, 2020)

Michiman420 said:


> Question. How do I feed noutes if it's been rainy out. Just wait?


I catch a break in the rain and feed. Never had a problem. That's average rain. Not storming downpours.


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## MICHI-CAN (Sep 9, 2020)

Michiman420 said:


> Ok I was just worrying about keeping my soil oversaturated. But I guess if it's just light rain off and on might as well give em food


Mine made it through the deluge and long standing ponds last year. My raised bed was a fish pond for a week.


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## Yamweedy (Sep 11, 2020)

“Near ripening time I do take most leaves off so all the buds get good light, just leaving the smaller leaves near the tips, or else the lower buds won't thicken up enough.”

How many days into flower are we talking bad about?


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## Humboldtcalikidd (Jan 26, 2021)

Never take off more than 50% at anytime. Keep it simple and you are always rewarded!


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## Huktonponics (Jan 26, 2021)

It was my understanding that newer, younger leaves photosynthesise better than the big fuck off satellite leaves. 

I do it situational. Depending on your ambient climate and humidity, strain,lights and enviroment do as you see fit. 

I also do it all the way through to reduce popcorn, increase air flow, reduce humidity and to generally get light down into the plants, but nothing extreme.

The debate on defoliating is like Covid, it will never end. But I don't bash people for doing or not doing it.

If I monster cropped some cuttings, yep, them fuckers are getting brutalised cos they go ape shit and need controlling.


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## Southside112 (Jan 27, 2021)

What so many people fail to understand is that bud sites don't need direct light. Leave the leaves alone. If the plant didn't need that many leaves why would they make them? 
Now a small lollipop of the extreme lowers makes sense to direct energy towards the big tops.


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## JonCreighton (Jan 27, 2021)

how does a plant distribute the light it recieves? do the fan leaves at the sites of colas only direct the energy they receive to the bud sites they are adjacent to. or is the light recieved by fan leaves distributed throughtou the whole plant? 

from a photon capture perspective..... if the former is true it would make sence to defoliate... if the latter is true i dont see the point...


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## Southside112 (Jan 27, 2021)

JonCreighton said:


> how does a plant distribute the light it recieves? do the fan leaves at the sites of colas only direct the energy they receive to the bud sites they are adjacent to. or is the light recieved by fan leaves distributed throughtou the whole plant?
> 
> from a photon capture perspective..... if the former is true it would make sence to defoliate... if the latter is true i dont see the point...


Pretty sure it's the latter. Look at an orange tree. Huge ripe fruit on the tree that get no direct light. Leaves are also an insurance policy for the plant in case of deficiency or pest.


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## MICHI-CAN (Jan 27, 2021)

I can't believe I'm here again. Times are tough.LOL. 

Do it, don't. Your call. My grows and learning indicate it is beneficial if done correctly. Detrimental otherwise. 

If you have a solid soil or base under good conditions with healthy plants you can increase production. It is called dead heading in my other pursuits. A responsive reaction to plant damage stimulating increased growth and vigor. 

I wish more people listened to "Mother Nature". And less to people trying to claim omnipotence over her. Foolish endeavors.


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## maranibbana (Jan 27, 2021)

Moderate Defoil 14-21 days after flip. Let the stretch stop.


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## Humboldtcalikidd (Jan 27, 2021)

You wouldn’t cut a branch off an apple tree because a couple apples were not in direct sunlight! So why do it to your ladies?


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## MICHI-CAN (Jan 27, 2021)

Humboldtcalikidd said:


> You wouldn’t cut a branch off an apple tree because a couple apples were not in direct sunlight! So why do it to your ladies?


Not talking apples. And yes. I would take any branches of apples denying the better quality growth of fruit. Cali telling MI about apples? I'm confused. 

Peace.


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## Harvest76 (Jan 27, 2021)

A good rule of thumb, is to not worry about what others think of your horticultural style.


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## Cabrone (Jan 28, 2021)

If plants absorbed light energy and dispersed it evenly throughout the plant I dont think you would get popcorn on the bottom of your plant?


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## Harvest76 (Jan 28, 2021)

Cabrone said:


> If plants absorbed light energy and dispersed it evenly throughout the plant I dont think you would get popcorn on the bottom of your plant?


Nodes are fed most efficiently by the leaves directly attached to the node. If those leaves and nodes are shaded, you get larf, if you remove the leaves but leave the bud sites you get larf. Therefore, logic says remove the shaded bud sites and leaves to avoid larf. The upside is, all plant root energy is directed towards the bud sites with remaining leaves. I would cite my source, but I can't remember where I got it. It was an instructional video on mainlining I believe.


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## tstick (Jan 28, 2021)

It's all about photosynthesis. The more "solar collecting panels" (AKA leaves) you have, the more photosynthesis. It's not about redirecting root energy to the bud sites. It's just that, IF you remove the leaves, then the only material left to collect light are the rather small sugar leaves. Extreme defoliation lessens the plants ability to photosynthesize and slows all plant processes. The roots don't have any bonus material that will go directly to the buds if the leaves are removed. It's like removing the large gears in a watch to try and get time to speed up. It just doesn't work that way.

The better thing to do, is to spread open the plant's branches (via scrog net or mainlining or super cropping or something like that) where the plant can get as much exposure to the light as possible without needing to remove any otherwise-healthy leaves.


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## Boatguy (Jan 28, 2021)

tstick said:


> The more "solar collecting panels" (AKA leaves) you have, the more photosynthesis.


That is the route i have followed. Lowers get trimmed, some fans if things get to thick for airflow. Good results for me... 
Dont grow enough plants to say whether trimming more is beneficial. Perfectly happy with over a gpw without stressing too much over things


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## welshsmoker (Jan 28, 2021)

Just take the pale ones off, looking at two rooms at the mo. One raped them, the other didn't bother , the last bastards winning bye far.


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## maranibbana (Jan 28, 2021)

Just to stir the pot, but fan leaves also take energy to maintain...


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 28, 2021)

Humboldtcalikidd said:


> You wouldn’t cut a branch off an apple tree because a couple apples were not in direct sunlight! So why do it to your ladies?


I wonder why defoliation is a standard practice in the cotton industry (hint, it creates higher quality cotton flowers; fact).


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## Harvest76 (Jan 28, 2021)

Humboldtcalikidd said:


> You wouldn’t cut a branch off an apple tree because a couple apples were not in direct sunlight! So why do it to your ladies?


But you would cut branches and blooms and leaves from rose bushes. It makes for better roses.


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## maranibbana (Jan 28, 2021)

Like most things in life, proper defoliation takes wisdom and balance ;P haha

DONT
Strip all your leaves from your plant the day you flip and again 14-21 days after

DO
remove excessive fan leaves, open up the air flow and light penetration within and under the canopy, and help direct the plants energy resources to the maximum benefit growth phase depending


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## Thundercat (Jan 28, 2021)

The problem is that people have tried to change the definition over the years. 

10 years ago when people talked about defoliation it referred to removing all or most of the fan leaves. 

In order to justify the practice it seems like people have tried to be more broad with the definition and less intense with the practices to make them more main stream. 

Yet there is already a term for removing sucker branches and selective growth from a plant. That term is “PRUNING”!!

Pruning gets used on roses, and tomatoes, and fruit trees and many other plants to alter and control growth. 

Pruning lower bud sites and damaged leaves or large leaves to encourage air flow and focused growth at the remaining growth tips is a common horticultural practice.


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## Bookush34 (Jan 29, 2021)

These threads are funny.
why is defoliation so controversial?
Because opinions are like assholes ..................

my take on it is indoor it has its place. But trying to explain that to someone that takes off about solar panels is impossible.

also trying to explain that 50 panels in different sun are more efficient then 100 panels in blocked sun. Another bang your head moment.

then taking the defensive route of “it’s not natural” is fucking horse shit. I am inside playing god and Mother Nature. Manipulating plants to get all horned up to reproduce seeds. Then deprive them of that, then roll and smoke that unfertilized Child.

Not to mention the horrors of clones

Outdoor plants also benefit form strategic defoliation. As these plants are being grown in different outdoor climates then where found naturally. 

Next. Why do Sativa plants have less fan leaves then indica plant. Sativas tend to come from sunnier climates right. Maybe they dont need all those extra leaves?

well theirs my asshole. Now you know.


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Jan 30, 2021)

Lol defoliation 
You guys will lose your minds seeing "shwazzing" haha
I gave it a shot this grow on my plants, so far so good.
I plan to take clones and do 2 plants swazzed, and two with typical thinning and lollipop my next RDWC run. I want to see results for myself
Especially because for some reason, I cannot find any solid side by side tests.
here are my girls the day I flipped to 1212 after I de-leafed

Here is exactly 60 hours later


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## Psyphish (Jan 31, 2021)

I've been removing leaves for a decade, works well in my tiny ass setups. I had a fuck up recently where some untested plants stretched into my LEDs, I had to cut off the tops because there was no room for scropping. I decided against removing the buds from the bottom of the plants that would normally stay as larf/popcorn and added more light under the plants, well those bottom buds turned out pretty good. If I have to choose between illuminating leaves or budsites, I'll take the budsites every time.


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## westcoast420 (Jan 31, 2021)

Like others have said, theres more than 1 way to grow cannabis, and tons of different techniques to increase branches, budsites, yields etc. All the hippy science about solar panels and satellites are pure nonsense. You are supplying everything the plant needs. All the stuff about hurting your plants and stunting them again pure nonsense. If you are on a solid feed program and plants are thriving they will bounce back in 24hrs from a full leaf strip if done at the right time. Remember, we are growing BUDS, not leaves here. The more you open up your plant to allow more direct light to budsites the more higher quality bud you will get. Try covering up a top or bud site but have the fans in direct light. What happens? The bud is dwarfed by other branches and will be less quality, mature later and grow less. Now remove the fans and expose the top or budsite to direct light. What happens? The plant regrows those leaves all while you have added more direct light to more budsites and that top still thrives. There is a reason most top commercial cannabis growers that do scrog style do multiple leaf strips and lollypoping. Ive never seen a decent sized operation doing scrog and not done multiple leaf strips. You want as many budsites to get direct light as possible in your top 1.5-2 feet of canopy.


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## tstick (Feb 1, 2021)

In retrospect, I can see that some plants/grows might benefit from removing leaves to expose bud site -like if it's a really leafy strain or when the lighting isn't sufficient. But in my small grows, it's never been necessary because I don't have a crowd of plants and I can provide all the light necessary without ever having to remove the leaves. I just grow for myself and not trying to flex my muscles against any big time commercial ops or use their growing techniques. I don't think my goals in growing marijuana are the same as theirs, tbh. I'm never on a time constraint and I don't need to meet any deadlines or fill any quotas, so if it takes longer for me to get my flowers ripe, then it's just fine. In my experience the leaves will remove themselves when they stop making food and they will just fall off all on their own. That's when the buds will get more exposure to the light at that time, anyway. But, I normally just adjust the exposure to the bud sights via LST or HST. I've never done it, but side-lighting or vertical growing achieves the same thing. _Put the light where the leaves can't shade the buds_ seems to make more sense than removing the leaves. But to each his own. *shrugs*


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## Rurumo (Feb 1, 2021)

Defoliation is one method of inducing systemic resistance. Ever notice that after defoliation, your plant bounces back and is healthier and faster growing than ever? Defoliation not only opens up bud sites to more light, it makes the plants stronger and healthier and might even increase quality of the final product. There are hundreds of studies dating back over 40 years on the effects of insect damage and other means of defoliation on plant health, this isn't some brand new controversial topic. The question is how much and how often for best results....no one can answer that, so I would just look at the grow journals of trusted top growers who defoliate and see what they do and what they end up with.


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## tstick (Feb 1, 2021)

I've got a Gorilla Glue #4 plant (from a bag seed) that is in week 7 of flower and it's pretty much all bud and hardly any leaves. It just grew that way. It would be silly to defoliate it. The other plant I'm growing is a Sativa-heavy hybrid and so the leaves are thinner and the colas are longer -less chunky plant. In either case, defoliation would be unwarranted. I guess when the day comes that I end up with a super leafy strain, I'll try to remember what was said in this thread! Until then....


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## maranibbana (Feb 1, 2021)

tstick said:


> I've got a Gorilla Glue #4 plant (from a bag seed) that is in week 7 of flower and it's pretty much all bud and hardly any leaves. It just grew that way. It would be silly to defoliate it. The other plant I'm growing is a Sativa-heavy hybrid and so the leaves are thinner and the colas are longer -less chunky plant. In either case, defoliation would be unwarranted. I guess when the day comes that I end up with a super leafy strain, I'll try to remember what was said in this thread! Until then....


You must not grow very often or do much breeding if you’ve never, ever, run into a leafy strain...


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## p0opstlnksal0t (Feb 1, 2021)

Harvest76 said:


> Therefore, logic says remove the shaded bud sites and leaves to avoid larf. The upside is, all plant root energy is directed towards the bud sites with remaining leaves.


This is the trick based on my personal experimentation.


Also I'm not sure why people keep comparing growing fruits, apples melons etc to growing cannabis flowers. We are not growing fruit or melons. Growing a fruit is a different animal and hacking the plant for manipulating flower production and quality. its a different animal than growing an apple or a melon. We aren't growing tobacco leaves either so tobacco techniques don't necessary help either. Usually we are growing indoors with a fixed light source. There are definitely defoliation, pruning and leafing techniques to maximize flower yield and quality.


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## Rob Roy (Feb 1, 2021)

Oakiey said:


> When you grow a giant melon do you strip all the leaves off
> 
> Defoliation is just stupid.


When trying to grow a giant melon or pumpkin, people often clip most of the "excess fruit" to help the intended giant fruit gain size. While not defoliation it is a form of plant manipulation to gain a certain outcome. 

I'm guessing based on your comment, that defoliating isn't for you. I defoliate regularly and get about 10 pounds a light in plants grown in beer cups. Been meaning to right a book about it and charge $1,000 per copy.


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## euphoria526 (Feb 1, 2021)

Rob Roy said:


> When trying to grow a giant melon or pumpkin, people often clip most of the "excess fruit" to help the intended giant fruit gain size. While not defoliation it is a form of plant manipulation to gain a certain outcome.
> 
> I'm guessing based on your comment, that defoliating isn't for you. I defoliate regularly and get about 10 pounds a light in plants grown in beer cups. Been meaning to right a book about it and charge $1,000 per copy.


cmon man, rule of 9's
$999.99
that way it seems cheaper than a thousand bucks lol


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## TintEastwood (Feb 1, 2021)

Nothing wrong with trying different techniques.


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## Severed Tongue (Feb 1, 2021)

So how come the guys like Jeorge Cervantes, say it's bad and don't do it as its a source of food?

Y'all saying he's wrong???? Lol


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## MisterKister (Feb 1, 2021)

Swazzing works for me


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 1, 2021)

Severed Tongue said:


> So how come the guys like Jeorge Cervantes, say it's bad and don't do it as its a source of food?
> 
> Y'all saying he's wrong???? Lol


Jorge Cervantes (aka George Van Patten) is just a grower who wrote some books. He certainly has been wrong about things in the past.


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## westcoast420 (Feb 1, 2021)

Severed Tongue said:


> So how come the guys like Jeorge Cervantes, say it's bad and don't do it as its a source of food?
> 
> Y'all saying he's wrong???? Lol


Old hippy grower from a time past, things have changed alot in indoor cultivation from his days.


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## PadawanWarrior (Feb 1, 2021)

It works great if you flush for 2 weeks first.


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## Rob Roy (Feb 2, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> How do you expect to write a book, when you can't even spell "write" right?


Rite on !


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## Horselover fat (Feb 2, 2021)

I bend my plants a lot so it is absolutely mandatory to remove A LOT of leaf. Otherwise you would just have a huge damp mess. 

Anyway you can't absorb more than 100% of the light, so I do think it's in our best interest to select where the light is absorbed.


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## Hollatchaboy (Feb 2, 2021)

Why not just harvest in stages? Take the tops first, clears the way for lower buds to get more light, wait another week or so, harvest lower buds.


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## Rob Roy (Feb 2, 2021)

Hollatchaboy said:


> Why not just harvest in stages? Take the tops first, clears the way for lower buds to get more light, wait another week or so, harvest lower buds.


That's a great idea with some plants. Years ago I ran a clone of blue widow that I regularly harvested in stages. The bottom flowers would nug up if you gave them two more weeks after the original tops were cut.


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Feb 2, 2021)

Hollatchaboy said:


> Why not just harvest in stages? Take the tops first, clears the way for lower buds to get more light, wait another week or so, harvest lower buds.


I scrog avoid needing this
I defoliate because otherwise the canopy would be way too thick


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Feb 2, 2021)

I cant WAIT for my next run. I'm sick of everyone's opinions on this.
I'm going to do light defoliation/lollipop on two clones in my next scrog vs Swazzing 2 clones
In the RDWC it should be a pretty fair comparison


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## Hollatchaboy (Feb 2, 2021)

ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ said:


> I cant WAIT for my next run. I'm sick of everyone's opinions on this.
> I'm going to do light defoliation/lollipop on two clones in my next scrog vs Swazzing 2 clones
> In the RDWC it should be a pretty fair comparison


I agree, it should be, and I'm interested in the results. I scrog as well, anything under the netting gets removed. Usually anything under the netting doesn't really do much for me. Maybe some people don't mind larf, but I do. As far as if it adds any more bulk up top, I cannot say, but the science behind it sounds logical to me.


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Feb 2, 2021)

Hollatchaboy said:


> I agree, it should be, and I'm interested in the results. I scrog as well, anything under the netting gets removed. Usually anything under the netting doesn't really do much for me. Maybe some people don't mind larf, but I do. As far as if it adds any more bulk up top, I cannot say, but the science behind it sounds logical to me.


I can't believe there isn't hundreds of grow journals out there with good comparisons on this.
Seems obvious it needs to be
Even if not in RDWC, some clones in soil would even be a pretty good test.


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## Hollatchaboy (Feb 2, 2021)

ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ said:


> I can't believe there isn't hundreds of grow journals out there with good comparisons on this.
> Seems obvious it needs to be
> Even if not in RDWC, some clones in soil would even be a pretty good test.


Again, agreed. How has nobody run tests on this subject. It's like(dare I mention it), flushing. Just recently I've seen a video where they did a test on flushing. Why did it take so long? Lol


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## Horselover fat (Feb 2, 2021)

It really isn't that easy to make a proper side by side experiment that actually proves something.


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## Hollatchaboy (Feb 2, 2021)

Horselover fat said:


> It really isn't that easy to make a proper side by side experiment that actually proves something.


Yea but you should be able to get it close enough to make a comparison.


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Feb 2, 2021)

Hollatchaboy said:


> Again, agreed. How has nobody run tests on this subject. It's like(dare I mention it), flushing. Just recently I've seen a video where they did a test on flushing. Why did it take so long? Lol


Flushing is a bit more understandable because that really requires some lab testing to get accurate results
Defloiation on the other hand, just run it, and weigh it lol


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Feb 2, 2021)

Horselover fat said:


> It really isn't that easy to make a proper side by side experiment that actually proves something.


In this case maybe it is
If I have a 4x4 with 4 clones in RDWC so they all have the same genetics, environment, lighting, and nutrients.
2 i will shwazz, two I will do my typical light defoliation here and there and a lollipop under my scrog net.
Very, very different extents of defoliation, very constant and even environment for both sides of the test.
Not sure what other variables I would need to worry about


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## Horselover fat (Feb 2, 2021)

^ sure it's easy to compare two grows like that, but I'm not sure you will get results that can really be applied elsewhere. If you repeat your experiment a few times you will get results that apply to your grow. Some one else growing in a different style might have a different experience. We can't know without testing different ways.

I'm pretty sure defoliating a lot or even "all" leaf from the plant is indeed beneficial for some grow styles. I don't think it's true for all grow styles.


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Feb 2, 2021)

Horselover fat said:


> ^ sure it's easy to compare two grows like that, but I'm not sure you will get results that can really be applied elsewhere. If you repeat your experiment a few times you will get results that apply to your grow. Some one else growing in a different style might have a different experience. We can't know without testing different ways.
> 
> I'm pretty sure defoliating a lot or even "all" leaf from the plant is indeed beneficial for some grow styles. I don't think it's true for all grow styles.


Well It would damn sure be a fair Guage. If I'm pulling 25% more over several grows on one method over another, I will feel very confident those results can be taken elsewhere
Sure isn't a true scientific test, but 10x better than most "tests" in the cannabis world lol


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## Hollatchaboy (Feb 2, 2021)

If nothing else, it's a start. Have to start somewhere.


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## Horselover fat (Feb 2, 2021)

ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ said:


> Well It would damn sure be a fair Guage. If I'm pulling 25% more over several grows on one method over another, I will feel very confident those results can be taken elsewhere
> Sure isn't a true scientific test, but 10x better than most "tests" in the cannabis world lol


And it will certainly be accurate for your situation, so it should be valuable information for you. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. I just commented on why there are so few tests around: It's a lot of work to get it right.


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## Rurumo (Feb 2, 2021)

Someone did a side by side defoliation grow here last year-his defoliated plant ended up with the highest yield. It wasn't done to any great scientific standard, but it did show that pretty heavy defoliation didn't hurt yields, and very likely increased them. The people who are totally against defoliation mostly seem to have never tried it for themselves-the same people seem to be against most forms of high stress training, topping, mainlining, supercropping, etc. That's fine too, you can grow great crops without doing any of this stuff-defoliation and high stress (and LST) are simply extra things you can do to maximize your grow, which is probably a limited space with limited plants. These techniques are very important for those of us in legal or medical states who want to follow the letter of the law, which usually means flowering around 4 plants at a time. Heck, if I could fill my backyard with plants, I'd let those babies grow free! BUT, in a 4x4 space, with the electricity I'm burning and the money I've spent on everything else, I want to squeeze my plants for every bud they're worth.


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## Horselover fat (Feb 2, 2021)

^ yeah that. My grow is limited by space. I can give more light than the plants can take - that's easy. I can learn how to feed them like a master, but my 2x4 is 2x4 and learning how to make that space produce the most is what I care about. I've now produced one pound in a go and I'm certain that quite a bit more is possible with the right kind of training and pruning.


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## getogrow (Feb 2, 2021)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> I practice extreme defoliation at days 1 and 21 of flower, recently doing a 1 and day 16 of flower with good results.
> 
> ...


Thats the second dumbest thing i have ever seen on this forum and ive seen some SHIT on riu. There is NO WAY you can explain how thats going to help in the end. 
I dont mind removing a leaf or two but this is why i dont recommend it EVER. If you did that after the flip , you lost at least 1/3 of your total weight.


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## tstick (Feb 2, 2021)

maranibbana said:


> You must not grow very often or do much breeding if you’ve never, ever, run into a leafy strain...


This is correct. I have never done any of that. I have seen really leafy strains but I guess I just never thought anything special about them as they never applied to me. As I recall, most of those really leafy ones were auto flowering strains and I am not interested in those because there is a flavor in autos that I don't care for. But now that I think about it, yeah...some defoliation would make sense for some strains. I'll try to remember this thread if I ever end up with a really leafy strain someday.


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Feb 2, 2021)

getogrow said:


> Thats the second dumbest thing i have ever seen on this forum and ive seen some SHIT on riu. There is NO WAY you can explain how thats going to help in the end.
> I dont mind removing a leaf or two but this is why i dont recommend it EVER. If you did that after the flip , you lost at least 1/3 of your total weight.


Dude chill.
This is actually done by a lot of growers with great results. Proof is in the pudding. It's called shwazzing.
Read just a few comments above you and we are taking about how I plan on running a few side by sides with clones on that method.


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## getogrow (Feb 2, 2021)

ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ said:


> Dude chill.
> This is actually done by a lot of growers with great results. Proof is in the pudding. It's called shwazzing.
> Read just a few comments above you and we are taking about how I plan on running a few side by sides with clones on that method.


id rather watch your side by side then even think about googling shwazzing. im all for proof. im the first one to admit when im wrong.


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Feb 2, 2021)

getogrow said:


> id rather watch your side by side then even think about googling shwazzing. im all for proof. im the first one to admit when im wrong.


There is litteraly a book that coined the term shwazzing in 2015
I have yet to find anyone that preformed this HST technique on healthy plants and destroyed their crop. 
You can youtube time-lapses of shwazzing, they are quite impressive.
Here is my current grow, day 1 of 1212 after shwazzing. 

Here is 4 days later


I would have done a side by side this grow but it would have been pointless since these are not clones.


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## getogrow (Feb 2, 2021)

Well at least you left the tops on. You raped um pretty good but it looks like you knew why you were doing it.


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Feb 2, 2021)

getogrow said:


> Well at least you left the tops on. You raped um pretty good but it looks like you knew why you were doing it.


Using this technique you are supposed to pull off every single fan leaf big enough to have a stem except 2-4 of the top ones on every node


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## getogrow (Feb 2, 2021)

ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ said:


> Using this technique you are supposed to pull off every single fan leaf big enough to have a stem except 2-4 of the top ones on every node


And what is this supposed to achieve ? looks like lolipopping to me.


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Feb 2, 2021)

getogrow said:


> And what is this supposed to achieve ? looks like lolipopping to me.


It is different than lollipopping in that you cut off absolutely no growth sites
And lollipopping is usually only the bottom 1/3 or less of the plant.
Shwazzing defoliates all the way up only leaving a few leafs at the top
There are acouple ideas of why this is helpful and shows good results for many.
It is supposed to open up the light to the lower canopy, giving "larf" branches prime light
It creates a type of shock response similar to other HST that drives the plant to grow more aggressively
The plant focus more energy on bud site growth, especially with higher ppfd hitting the sugar leafs, rather than sustaining inefficient large fan leafs.

Like I said, if you check out some examples on youtube and other place, some people are pulling giant colas
The book that coined this term claims this is the "secret sauce" to getting "3 a light" (3 pounds per light)


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## Humboldtcalikidd (Feb 2, 2021)

Having a thread about defoliating and getting everyone’s opinions and looking at all the debates back and forth it’s almost as bad as mentioning politics! Scary! It’s only weed guys chill!


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Feb 2, 2021)

Humboldtcalikidd said:


> Having a thread about defoliating and getting everyone’s opinions and looking at all the debates back and forth it’s almost as bad as mentioning politics! Scary! It’s only weed guys chill!


Lol thats the problem though, its all opinions and hearsay. I plan on running several tests on this and recording everything on a thread down the line to try to be as constant, and accurate as possible.


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## tstick (Feb 2, 2021)

Has anyone ever grown a strain that produces very few fan leaves and almost all buds?


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## PadawanWarrior (Feb 2, 2021)

tstick said:


> Has anyone ever grown a strain that produces very few fan leaves and almost all buds?


Ya. High calyx to leaf ratio.


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## Boru420 (Feb 2, 2021)

i defoliated the fuck out of my plants, ye ha it dropped the humidity if nothing else.


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## PadawanWarrior (Feb 2, 2021)

Boru420 said:


> i defoliated the fuck out of my plants, ye ha it dropped the humidity if nothing else.


Ya, and my temp rises a tiny bit.


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## LordEnki (Feb 2, 2021)

i am under the impression that once in flower the plant wont grow back anything removed from it.


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## getogrow (Feb 2, 2021)

LordEnki said:


> i am under the impression that once in flower the plant wont grow back anything removed from it.


it wont ever grow back anything but it will shoot new growth in veg or flower. Or these guys that believe in this method believe that the plant will focus more on the new growth vs the leaves they take off.


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## LordEnki (Feb 2, 2021)

getogrow said:


> it wont ever grow back anything but it will shoot new growth in veg or flower. Or these guys that believe in this method believe that the plant will focus more on the new growth vs the leaves they take off.


 thats exactly what ive read most places. extreme defoliation just before flower and then a month in and the plants "focus" on flower growth and not regrowing lost foliage.


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## Boru420 (Feb 2, 2021)

LordEnki said:


> thats exactly what ive read most places. extreme defoliation just before flower and then a month in and the plants "focus" on flower growth and not regrowing lost foliage.


thats what i heard and im sticking to it.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 2, 2021)

Hollatchaboy said:


> Why not just harvest in stages? Take the tops first, clears the way for lower buds to get more light, wait another week or so, harvest lower buds.





ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ said:


> I scrog avoid needing this
> I defoliate because otherwise the canopy would be way too thick


I do a modified scrog, and did a multi-stage harvest last run, which seemed to work well. I do get more than a couple feet of vertical growth above my lowest net


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## Hollatchaboy (Feb 2, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> I do a modified scrog, and did a multi-stage harvest last run, which seemed to work well. I do get more than a couple feet of vertical growth above my lowest net


I did a multi stage harvest with a scrog. Prolly much different than your setup and the lower growth ripened up much better but it obviously wasn't as potent.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 2, 2021)

Hollatchaboy said:


> I did a multi stage harvest with a scrog. Prolly much different than your setup and the lower growth ripened up much better but it obviously wasn't as potent.


TBH, I felt like the lowers that I harvested a week later were more potent, but the terps were different (less preferable with late harvest).


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## Hollatchaboy (Feb 2, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> TBH, I felt like the lowers that I harvested a week later were more potent, but the terps were different (less preferable with late harvest).


I wish mine would have. They did get darker and more ripe, but potency just wasn't there for me, at least not like the tops. Lol


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## p0opstlnksal0t (Feb 2, 2021)

Severed Tongue said:


> So how come the guys like Jeorge Cervantes, say it's bad and don't do it as its a source of food?
> 
> Y'all saying he's wrong???? Lol


I've seen another video.of his where he described pruning techniques and cleaning up leaves to "hack" the plant for indoor growing styles to yield more


----------



## Severed Tongue (Feb 2, 2021)

Just checking reviews for his book, and others like The Grow Bible, seems like it's all outdated, mostly talks about history of the plant and lots of pictures, barely anything on LED.

So I guess I have to really be careful as a new to this indoor home grower, as even just watching YouTube videos... one guy will support xyz, the next guy says that same xyz is bioscience, yet both guys are having very successful results.

No wonder so many people get frustrated.


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## bernie344 (Feb 2, 2021)

TerrapinBlazin said:


> Things got a little heated in another thread when I and another poster put up some pics of our defoliation. He “schwazzed” the plant and I did something much less extreme. This caused one of the main forum admins to come in and speak out against defoliation, with no small amount of derision towards me and the other poster, I might add.
> 
> I didn’t think this was controversial. I thought it was settled science that judicious defoliation virtually eliminates larf. Sure I understand urging some caution, and I personally do it incrementally like the guide in the link describes, except this it was a local friend that showed me how to do this.
> 
> ...


Its a touchy subject due to the defoliation riots back in 2009.
Don't quote me on that.


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## Beehive (Feb 2, 2021)

If you're worried about 'larf'. Then mainline or manifold. Where the entire plant produces top shelf bud throughout.

Growing bushy. Everything above the canopy is top shelf. The rest are levels of quality. If you think I'm grinding up rock colas to go into cookies. Negatory.

There's producing stuff you smoke and stuff you use in other things.

It all gets you high.


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## NanoGadget (Feb 2, 2021)

I almost never do much defoliation, but I think I probably need to modify my methods for this run. Shit got really crowded. Did a light trim at flip and its already a shit show again 2 weeks later..


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## bernie344 (Feb 2, 2021)

NanoGadget said:


> I almost never do much defoliation, but I think I probably need to modify my methods for this run. Shit got really crowded.View attachment 4814506 Did a light trim at flip and its already a shit show again 2 weeks later..


Yeah....if only leaves were a good smoke it would be so easy.


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## NanoGadget (Feb 2, 2021)

bernie344 said:


> Yeah....if only leaves were a good smoke it would be so easy.


I eat em!


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## bernie344 (Feb 2, 2021)

NanoGadget said:


> I eat em!


Are you human?


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## NanoGadget (Feb 2, 2021)

bernie344 said:


> Are you human?


Heck yes! Cannabis leaves are super nutritious! I juice them, add them to mixed green salads, I've even sautéed them with garlic and butter. Good stuff.


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## bernie344 (Feb 2, 2021)

NanoGadget said:


> Heck yes! Cannabis leaves are super nutritious! I juice them, add them to mixed green salads, I've even sautéed them with garlic and butter. Good stuff.


Ok cool.


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## MisterKister (Feb 3, 2021)

This is an example of defoliated bud notice how small and underdeveloped it is...lmao


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## bernie344 (Feb 3, 2021)

MisterKister said:


> This is an example of defoliated bud notice how small and underdeveloped it is...lmaoView attachment 4815451


How much did that weigh?


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Feb 3, 2021)

MisterKister said:


> This is an example of defoliated bud notice how small and underdeveloped it is...lmaoView attachment 4815451


Check out this timelapse of extream defoliating called shwazzing. These are some giant colas


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## MisterKister (Feb 4, 2021)

bernie344 said:


> How much did that weigh?


Don't know i just cut it down


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## Rob Roy (Feb 4, 2021)

LordEnki said:


> i am under the impression that once in flower the plant wont grow back anything removed from it.


Early in flower and some plants will grow leaves back. 

It's like the hairclub for weed though, some plants will experience more growth than others.


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## MisterKister (Feb 5, 2021)

bernie344 said:


> How much did that weigh?


40 grams was the total smokable product from that nug


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Feb 5, 2021)

MisterKister said:


> 40 grams was the total smokable product from that nug


Wowza, nice man


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## MisterKister (Feb 5, 2021)

ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ said:


> Wowza, nice man


Thank you sir!


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## bernie344 (Feb 5, 2021)

MisterKister said:


> 40 grams was the total smokable product from that nug


Nice one


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## westcoast420 (Feb 5, 2021)

MisterKister said:


> 40 grams was the total smokable product from that nug


pfft, would have been a pound if you didnt kill it by pulling leaves


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## maranibbana (Feb 6, 2021)

I still hate this thread. not that you care.


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Feb 6, 2021)

maranibbana said:


> I still hate this thread. not that you care.


Why do you hate it? I care, I will send virtual hugs


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## makina (Feb 6, 2021)

Boatguy said:


> Not to mention, most of us amateurs, use leaves to detect deficiencies and other problems.


Not just amateurs, professionals do it to


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## nz_420 (Feb 8, 2021)

I've been playing around with defol for a little now. Strain dependant on what and how they like it. I have one cultivar that does loose a little weight, but it gets alot more frostier. I can see the difference in the nugs when I have them in my hand. I choose to defol her as it mean more hash


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## MisterKister (Feb 8, 2021)

Another reason I choose to defoliate is it makes trimming a breeze


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## F32 (Feb 18, 2021)

I dont believe everything I read. I dont believe everything that I am told. However I do believe in experience, and experimenting, figuring things out on your own. Personally for me, there is no way I would not defoliate. Ive been defoilating before that famous term shazzing was coined and in my gardens that technique will not stop. To each their own.


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## Frost Spectre (Feb 18, 2021)

F32 said:


> I dont believe everything I read. I dont believe everything that I am told. However I do believe in experience, and experimenting, figuring things out on your own. Personally for me, there is no way I would not defoliate. Ive been defoilating before that famous term shazzing was coined and in my gardens that technique will not stop. To each their own.View attachment 4829586


I 100% agree. I've been growing at home and for commercial operations long enough to know that defoliation increases yield.


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## tstick (Feb 18, 2021)

I'm convinced that there is a part of ripening that the plant goes through which involves the leaves. I don't have the scientific studies to back me up, but there must be a functional design to the question of why a plant exhausts the chlorophyll in the leaves before it drops them. I don't believe that nature designs its systems to work the way they do, without a good reason. Why don't the plants naturally drop their leaves when they are still green and full of chlorophyll if it would benefit the flowers? There must be value in that chlorophyll, right? It must be doing something for the plants to use it up.

What if there was some kind of flavonoid/terpene development that was related to the leaves? Again..."What if?" Would an increase in yield be preferable to a loss in flavor? I would guess that if you were a large, commercial grow op, then yield would be more important. But a small batch, personal-use grower doesn't necessarily have that same goal. All anyone needs to do is to start scoping the buds on the commercial market. The trichomes are clear and the flavor is lacking. Coincidence? I don't think so. The buds look good from a distance. They are big and dense for sure. But I have to almost climb into the jars ti get any smell from them! I think it's a matter of the industry needing to meet a quota by harvesting plants before they go through a proper ripening stage. 

People might be able to "prove" that defoliation increases yield, but I don't think yield should be the goal for most of us. I hear a lot of complaints from us older guys that the new weed just isn't as tasty as the older strains were. (I completely agree, btw!) I wonder if that might have something to do with the new standard that we have been introduced to via the industry. 

Maybe we can improve upon flavors and terpenes by simply by applying small-batch grow standards and allowing the plants to do their thing in their own time...? I dunno...but that's what I'm going to focus on for awhile.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 18, 2021)

tstick said:


> I'm convinced that there is a part of ripening that the plant goes through which involves the leaves. I don't have the scientific studies to back me up, but there must be a functional design to the question of why a plant exhausts the chlorophyll in the leaves before it drops them. I don't believe that nature designs its systems to work the way they do, without a good reason. Why don't the plants naturally drop their leaves when they are still green and full of chlorophyll if it would benefit the flowers? There must be value in that chlorophyll, right? It must be doing something for the plants to use it up.
> 
> What if there was some kind of flavonoid/terpene development that was related to the leaves? Again..."What if?" Would an increase in yield be preferable to a loss in flavor? I would guess that if you were a large, commercial grow op, then yield would be more important. But a small batch, personal-use grower doesn't necessarily have that same goal. All anyone needs to do is to start scoping the buds on the commercial market. The trichomes are clear and the flavor is lacking. Coincidence? I don't think so. The buds look good from a distance. They are big and dense for sure. But I have to almost climb into the jars ti get any smell from them! I think it's a matter of the industry needing to meet a quota by harvesting plants before they go through a proper ripening stage.
> 
> ...


I have a counter "what if" to your what if..

What if what you said is true, and what if the reason that leaves fade and drop at the end of flower is because the plants are ridding themselves of chlorophyll to more to the end ripening stage when they don't need the chlorophyll. What if leaves fading and dropping over weeks is as quick as the plants can naturally manipulate this process, ad they can not physically do it overnight. So, what if by defoliating the plants, we are assisting the plant in speeding up this natural process of self leaf removal? What if because we are assisting in this way, the plants ripen better with more flavor and potency?

This is a lot of what if's, but not too far out there either IMO.

Just remember that defoliation is huge in the cotton industry in terms of producing quality flowers. It's a standard practice. Just sayin.


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## Frost Spectre (Feb 18, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> I have a counter "what if" to your what if..
> 
> What if what you said is true, and what if the reason that leaves fade and drop at the end of flower is because the plants are ridding themselves of chlorophyll to more to the end ripening stage when they don't need the chlorophyll. What if leaves fading and dropping over weeks is as quick as the plants can naturally manipulate this process, ad they can not physically do it overnight. So, what if by defoliating the plants, we are assisting the plant in speeding up this natural process of self leaf removal? What if because we are assisting in this way, the plants ripen better with more flavor and potency?
> 
> ...


That's an interesting point.

Defoliation has more practical functions other than increasing yield. In larger commercial operations defoliation is essential as a preventative to mitigate powdery mildew and other fungal infections. I've grown cannabis for a few years on a commerical level and can tell you that there are certain cultivars that don't react well to heavy defoliation. To solve this problem we were very selective in what we chose to run in our facility. We focused on plants that can handle high amounts of stress and have a higher caylx to bud ratio. Below I posted a picture of what can happen when you choose the wrong cultivar to heavily defoliate.


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## Rdubz (Feb 18, 2021)

Frost Spectre said:


> That's an interesting point.
> 
> Defoliation has more practical functions other than increasing yield. In larger commercial operations defoliation is essential as a preventative to mitigate powdery mildew and other fungal infections. I've grown cannabis for a few years on a commerical level and can tell you that there are certain cultivars that don't react well to heavy defoliation. To solve this problem we were very selective in what we chose to run in our facility. We focused on plants that can handle high amounts of stress and have a higher caylx to bud ratio. Below I posted a picture of what can happen when you choose the wrong cultivar to heavily defoliate.View attachment 4830039


Them nanners man gotta love em ! What are the genetics if I don’t mind me asking and have u found indica dom strains to be more resistant to defoliation , ....very good points on knowing how far u can go with a strain!


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## Frost Spectre (Feb 18, 2021)

tstick said:


> I'm convinced that there is a part of ripening that the plant goes through which involves the leaves. I don't have the scientific studies to back me up, but there must be a functional design to the question of why a plant exhausts the chlorophyll in the leaves before it drops them. I don't believe that nature designs its systems to work the way they do, without a good reason. Why don't the plants naturally drop their leaves when they are still green and full of chlorophyll if it would benefit the flowers? There must be value in that chlorophyll, right? It must be doing something for the plants to use it up.
> 
> What if there was some kind of flavonoid/terpene development that was related to the leaves? Again..."What if?" Would an increase in yield be preferable to a loss in flavor? I would guess that if you were a large, commercial grow op, then yield would be more important. But a small batch, personal-use grower doesn't necessarily have that same goal. All anyone needs to do is to start scoping the buds on the commercial market. The trichomes are clear and the flavor is lacking. Coincidence? I don't think so. The buds look good from a distance. They are big and dense for sure. But I have to almost climb into the jars ti get any smell from them! I think it's a matter of the industry needing to meet a quota by harvesting plants before they go through a proper ripening stage.
> 
> ...


I can assure you that leaving leaves on doesn't improve terpene production. I've seen these tests done through R&D. I'm a firm believer in the proper curing technique to preserve terpenes.

You would be surprised at how many of us came from small batch home grow backgrounds. I 100% took my knowledge of growing small batch cannabis and applied it to the commercial operation.

These practices aren't necessarily a new standard. Legitimate Licensed Producers that care about over all bud quality, know that big buds are not the number one factor in quality cannabis. If you want to produce unique tepene profiles adding the sun to the equation is a game changer.


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## Frost Spectre (Feb 18, 2021)

Rdubz said:


> Them nanners man gotta love em ! What are the genetics if I don’t mind me asking and have u found indica dom strains to be more resistant to defoliation , ....very good points on knowing how far u can go with a strain!


When they are in a few thousand plants it gets pretty ugly lol. The only thing I can tell you is that this was IBL landrace cross. It's a shame because the terpene profile was really unique on this one. She had absolutely massive leaves that were overlapping so we didn't have a choice... We had to defoliate her hard.


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## F32 (Feb 18, 2021)

I agree with Frost 100%. I pick all my strains carefully. Some beans/strains don't make it to production and the ones that do make it go thru a lengthy pheno hunt. Like a <1% keeper ratio 1/100. Must find the correct strain and pheno that works with how I grow. Defoliating is part of my process so the plants must work with it or its gone. And yes high calxes to leaf ratio strains work best for me. Totally agree


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## Frost Spectre (Feb 18, 2021)

F32 said:


> I agree with Frost 100%. I pick all my strains carefully. Some beans/strains don't make it to production and the ones that do make it go thru a lengthy pheno hunt. Like a <1% keeper ratio 1/100. Must find the correct strain and pheno that works with how I grow. Defoliating is part of my process so the plants must work with it or its gone. And yes high calxes to leaf ratio strains work best for me. Totally agree


Sounds like you know what you're doing. I know some guys that pop 500 plus beans when hunting for something unique in a F2 line. Usually they select one or two keepers.... 

I'm a firm believer in the local clone trade community to aquire high quality cuts. Some people don't have the space or money to do large pheno hunts. Working together is essential at finding those kick ass cuts. Splitting large seed orders with friends is a good way at finding something legitimate too.


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## Redrum42 (Feb 28, 2021)

Tuck and train with minor trimming > everything else.


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