# How to find the best phenotype



## Trevor (Sep 7, 2009)

Hello all,
I recently ordered 2 10 packs of seeds (deep purple and space queen) from Subcool through bidzbay and I was wondering if anyone had any advice on the best way to grow them out to look for males/desirable females.

Would it be better to start a few and work with them or just germ/veg/clone/flower all 10 of one strain and go from there? Room won't be an issue if I do a full pack. Any advice or input would be great. Thanks.


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## Brick Top (Sep 7, 2009)

The more beans you pop and grow out the more likely it will be that you will find more different phenotypes than if you pop and grow just a few at a time. If you do it a few at a time you may see something you think is great and then in the next batch you may find something much better and you lost the time between the two attempts just to find the one in the second attempt that may be the one that is the best. 
&#12288;
I have never bothered to try doing what you are talking about but if it were me and I had the space I would pop them all and let them all veg a while and then take clones and mark them, parent plants and clones, so you know what plants the clones came from and then flower the clones and see what is what and what does what and then go back to the plants you kept in veg, the parent plants, and cull those you are not impressed with and keep those you are and use them to make clones to grow. 
&#12288;
Someone who does that sort of thing would be best to listen to but that is what I would likely do unless I first researched it and found I would be doing it wrong.


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## somebody041 (Sep 8, 2009)

i don't know the answer but i'm curious as well. i recently popped 20 cherry pez seeds and have NO idea what to look for. some are growing more vigorous than others but does this mean they'll be more resinous?


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## Trevor (Sep 8, 2009)

Brick Top said:


> The more beans you pop and grow out the more likely it will be that you will find more different phenotypes than if you pop and grow just a few at a time. If you do it a few at a time you may see something you think is great and then in the next batch you may find something much better and you lost the time between the two attempts just to find the one in the second attempt that may be the one that is the best.
> &#12288;
> I have never bothered to try doing what you are talking about but if it were me and I had the space I would pop them all and let them all veg a while and then take clones and mark them, parent plants and clones, so you know what plants the clones came from and then flower the clones and see what is what and what does what and then go back to the plants you kept in veg, the parent plants, and cull those you are not impressed with and keep those you are and use them to make clones to grow.
> &#12288;
> Someone who does that sort of thing would be best to listen to but that is what I would likely do unless I first researched it and found I would be doing it wrong.


Yeah, that's the rationale I'm thinking would work best as well. I also want to try to get into breeding (if I get any males) and so I would have to take that into account. Not any real hardcore breeding mind you, just more for shits and giggles and to see what I can come up with. I'll keep looking around though and see if anyone has any firsthand experience.


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## newb19547 (Sep 8, 2009)

Basically the "best" phenotype is whatever you are looking for. You may like one thats short and bushy but somebody else may want a tall skinny one. It's all preference


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## regal8r (Sep 8, 2009)

look for tight internodal spacing, early resin production, more indica or sativa dominant depending on your liking if the strain is a hybrid, also look for 'rings' around where secondary growth meets the main stalk, see pic. credit for this pic goes to fdd2blk and his seed production thread


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## Green Cross (Sep 8, 2009)

Trevor said:


> Hello all,
> I recently ordered 2 10 packs of seeds (deep purple and space queen) from Subcool through bidzbay and I was wondering if anyone had any advice on the best way to grow them out to look for males/desirable females.
> 
> Would it be better to start a few and work with them or just germ/veg/clone/flower all 10 of one strain and go from there? Room won't be an issue if I do a full pack. Any advice or input would be great. Thanks.


If you're looking for a mother plant, or the best out of 10 you should plant all 10 at the same time. Weed out the tallest plants with the least foliage (most likel males). 

Then look for whatever plants standout above the rest. Some stable hybrids may not show much variation, but here are some of the traits I like to look for when choosing a mother. 

Resin production

Root growth

stockiness

node length

stem thickness

Ability to clone

Lush fast growth

early flower

Branching

Color 

Smell

Bud formation

There are many books on the subject, just google


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## Brick Top (Sep 8, 2009)

newb19547 said:


> Basically the "best" phenotype is whatever you are looking for. You may like one thats short and bushy but somebody else may want a tall skinny one. It's all preference


 
That is correct. What is "best" is what has the traits you most want or like. 
&#12288;
The same goes with breeding, but it does get more complicated in knowing or making enough crosses to discover which plants, as in male or female, will best pass on the traits you most desire. In the case of Shantibabas origninal White Widow, renamed Black Widow, he says picking a good male to use for crosses is better than picking a good female. Evidently the male, at least in that case, passes on more of the original traits than a female would.
&#12288;
An example of picking traits for breeding purposes to eventually end up with what you want most can be seen in the history of Romulan.
&#12288;
*History*

"Roumours and guesses on the parentage of Romulan abound. Claims that the Romulan is a pure Indica (Afgani/Kush) are mistaken. While there may be some genetics from Indica (Afgani) varieties, anyone who has tryed the Romulan knows that the mind warping effect is that of plant with strong sativa traits. `Romulan Joe` and I have had many conversations on the origin of this strain. According to him the original breeders started growing in there backyard and greenhouse in the 50`s, after being introduced to cannabis in the Korean war and bringing home seeds to Victoria. They struggled to grow and acclimatise these seeds selecting the faster flowering shorter plants from the tall lanky Korean strain. When the late sixties, early seventies rolled around they began trying Columbian and Mexician seeds and hybredized varieties from these. In the mid 80`s when the Afgani strains sweept into North America they breifly tried hybredizing with these but eventually when back to selecting the traits they liked in there old genetics. They worked mainly with Sativa genetics but always selected shorter squatter phenotypes which has made many people think that it is purely Indica strain. But whatever its true geniology is, I`m sure we can all agree on its great taste and high.

Over the last few years NGSC has grown several seed varieties from Columbia and has reported on one the was remarkably simular in flavour and affect as the romulan, but grows tall like a sativa. It was a Columbian Red variety that is now the basis for the new seeds A.D.D. from thier Gold Seal Collection, very heady strain. This has brought more circumstantial evidence that leads us to believe that the Romulan has a strong Columbian influence."
 

For growing just to smoke or for breeding purposes what is "best" can at least to some degree, a larger one in the case of just for purposes of smoking, only be found in the mind of the grower/breeder.


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## iivan740 (Sep 8, 2009)

If room is not a problem grow as many as you can from seed, clone a couple of each parent, flower the clones, and pick the pheno that suits you. 
I'm not sure but subcool or mz jill may already have the best phenotypes identified, and described in their forums. If they do you can use their descriptions as a starting point for finding the phenotype you want.
If you know the pheno you are looking for then you can cut down on the time factor. i.e. DJ blueberry auto double top.
Be careful and don't destroy a plant just because it appears not to be the one, because sometimes you get a stunted clone or something else happens that will not allow you to see the full potential of a plant. This is why I would do at least 3 clones for each parent, and if I had the space I would do 6 for each parent.
Definitly keep some sort of record so that you don't forget important details along the way. Like cloning viability (cut to roots in a week vs cut to roots in three weeks), indica dom vs sativa dom, stretch, bushy or tall or tall and bushy, etc. etc.. etc.... The notes may help you remember what you liked or disliked about a phenotype.


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## RickWhite (Sep 8, 2009)

That's the problem when growing from seed. But I agree with what is posted above. Another method is to clone all the plants just as they enter flowering, marking them of course, then finish your grow and you will have clones from which ever you like best. Just don't let the moms get too far into flowering - reversion is not good IMO. Anyway, that's how I would do it.


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## Trevor (Sep 8, 2009)

First off, thanks for all the great info/responses. While I am a fairly experienced grower, this is the first time I haven't ordered straight feminized seeds and will be required to "weed" some out so I just wanted to make sure I am not letting anything great slip away.



RickWhite said:


> That's the problem when growing from seed. But I agree with what is posted above. Another method is to clone all the plants just as they enter flowering, marking them of course, then finish your grow and you will have clones from which ever you like best. Just don't let the moms get too far into flowering - reversion is not good IMO. Anyway, that's how I would do it.


I think that will be my plan of attack. I will obviously take very extensive notes which means I will probably post a journal since I will already be examining them very in depth. Do I necessarily need to clone them just as they enter flower? I usually clone during veg. Is there a reason that would be different in this case?



iivan740 said:


> If room is not a problem grow as many as you can from seed, clone a couple of each parent, flower the clones, and pick the pheno that suits you.
> I'm not sure but subcool or mz jill may already have the best phenotypes identified, and described in their forums. If they do you can use their descriptions as a starting point for finding the phenotype you want.
> If you know the pheno you are looking for then you can cut down on the time factor. i.e. DJ blueberry auto double top.
> Be careful and don't destroy a plant just because it appears not to be the one, because sometimes you get a stunted clone or something else happens that will not allow you to see the full potential of a plant. This is why I would do at least 3 clones for each parent, and if I had the space I would do 6 for each parent.
> Definitly keep some sort of record so that you don't forget important details along the way. Like cloning viability (cut to roots in a week vs cut to roots in three weeks), indica dom vs sativa dom, stretch, bushy or tall or tall and bushy, etc. etc.. etc.... The notes may help you remember what you liked or disliked about a phenotype.


Sub does have some guidelines as to what he would advise looking for and, of course, I trust that heavily. I also would like to cater to my specific tastes though and hopefully get the perfect mother of some pure dank I can smoke again and again. I usually run 3 clones as well if it is a strain I know clones well but in this case I may try more just in case some don't take.


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## RickWhite (Sep 8, 2009)

You can clone any time. I'm just overly space conscious - don't want the ones you don't want taking up space just to kill half your clones. Might also be interesting to see how many of what phenotypes you get. This will tell you something about what is dominant or recessive (maybe).


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## iivan740 (Sep 8, 2009)

Good Luck with the hunt. keep us posted.


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## Trevor (Sep 8, 2009)

RickWhite said:


> You can clone any time. I'm just overly space conscious - don't want the ones you don't want taking up space just to kill half your clones. Might also be interesting to see how many of what phenotypes you get. This will tell you something about what is dominant or recessive (maybe).


I understand that man. I had a bad habit of that when I first started. I was always asses to elbows in my room because I never timed things right.



iivan740 said:


> Good Luck with the hunt. keep us posted.


Thanks. Will do. Like I said, I plan on starting an extensive journal once I get the seeds. Bidzbay changed my order to paid, I can't wait til they get here.


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## naboo (Sep 10, 2009)

Thanks guys. I lerned alot from this thread.


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## satch (Sep 10, 2009)

IMO I'd keep a Sativa dom pheno and an Indica dom. 

As for the person who was saying the male might pass on more traits; I don't think that's true, most people just skimp on the male and his half of the traits passed are weak ones. I've only ever had one male that was good enough to have me fooled on him being a male before balls showed. Be it that the only seedbank seeds I've ever sprouted were fems, so I'm not exactly sure how a seedbank male would turn out.


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## Trevor (Sep 11, 2009)

I don't know if I'd consider TGA a seed bank. No offense to Subcool or TGA, just saying. But nonetheless, I will check any male genetics I get.


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