# Trichs Never Turn Amber



## Huel Perkins (Aug 25, 2012)

I been growing the same cut AK-47 pheno for 4 or maybe even 5 years now. I love everything about the plant, structure, yield, aroma, potency but i have never been able to judge the trichomes to determine when it's perfectly ready for harvest.

It seems that the common forum belief here is that when the majority of the trichomes turn from clear to milky and when 20%-50% (depending of preference) turn from milky to amber it is ready for harvest. With this strain the breeder suggests a harvest after 7-8 weeks of flowering yet at 7-8 weeks my plant's trichomes are almost all still clear. I've actually let this strain go as long as 14 weeks and the trichs still never really achieve the 20%+ amber level. Another interesting trait is that the buds never really stop growing...

Weeks 2-4 are the standard pistil explosion of growth shooting from every flowering site on the plant. Weeks 3-4 are steadily adding mass to all the flowering sites. Weeks 5-6 is when the fur-ball looking masses of pistils actually start to appear full bud structure and dense with noticeable calyx development. Weeks 7-8 nothing much seems to happen, there is still some growth but the vigor in prior weeks seems to be put on pause yet the vast majority of the pistils (95%+) are still white and full of life. During week 9 is when the calyxes really swell up and the buds truly appear full, dense and beautiful. Although the bud looks full and ready for harvest, 90% of the pistils and still white and at least 75% of the trichomes are still clear. After 9 weeks the buds begin to get crazy fox tail formations and i tend to start loosing leaves as well as a great deal of yellowing and purple leaves. Weeks 10-14 continue on in the same fashion that week 9 ended, lots of color change in my leaves (losing the green) and lots of fox tailing in bud growth but still never achieving many amber trichs and still at least 50%+ clear trichs. 

I've grown plenty of other strains that seem to follow the typical standards peak maturity in the last couple weeks (calyxes swell, pistils start dying off and trichs turn from clear-cloudy-amber) but this strain which happens to be my all time favorite just doesn't seem to follow the rules....

Has anyone gown a strain like this or just want to share their thoughts on it????


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## brotherjericho (Aug 25, 2012)

What type of lighting do you use?


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## hotrodharley (Aug 25, 2012)

And what schedule, adding to the first responders question?


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## Huel Perkins (Aug 25, 2012)

brotherjericho said:


> What type of lighting do you use?


1000w HPS for flowering.


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## Flaming Pie (Aug 25, 2012)

amber trichs are CBN. CBN is not good. Why wait until your THC has degraded?


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## Huel Perkins (Aug 25, 2012)

hotrodharley said:


> And what schedule, adding to the first responders question?


What schedule, are you referring to the photoperiod? If so it 18/6 veg with a 1000w MH and flowering is 12/12 1000w HPS


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## OldGrowAddict (Aug 26, 2012)

@Perkins:
"
There are phenos that simply do not get real amber, I know that for sure.
And it's not only a few strains, if anything it seems to get more common today (hybrids without real amber thricomes).
You could wait and get darker brown/yellow thrics, but what you see is overripe bud - not the amber you want.
"
This is the gist of the replies I've gotten when I ask your question (similar ones).
I used to grow outdoors when younger, and relatively recently started growing modern hybrids indoors.

I have the same "problem" myself at the moment, and I'm not sure it only genetics - the environment is usually a big factor in everything.
With "problem" I mean no amber, a lot of clear, but still great potency after harvest!

Maybe the plant never get enough clues that it's all over (winter is coming), I wish I knew.

But since you've grown the same strain for several years, and loving the result, the question becomes why is the potency so good, when it still has so many clear thricomes?

I would like to know this, because when this happens you can't help but feel like there had to be more potential in the plant!

But the fact is, I love the potency of my latest harvest - which means all the clear thricomes are irrelevant (no amber, and about 60% milky - the rest was clear at harvest!).

I would love to get real information about this topic.

BTW: After a month of curing, you'll notice yellow/amberish thrics anyway, but that's another topic.


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## k0ijn (Aug 26, 2012)

As Flamin Pie said, why would you want a less potent product?

Amber trichomes contain CBN which is the product of degraded THC and it represents a 90% loss of potency.

You should be happy that you have a strain which has evolved into producing nearly no amber trichomes, thereby retaining it's potency perfectly.
That is a gift if I ever saw one.


If you have any more questions regarding trichomes:

https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/516184-trichomes-harvesting.html



@OldGrowAddict

There are a few strains which do not really turn amber in the general sense.
The fact that the plant can produce a good enough potency just on 60% cloudy is just a testament to how strong the genetics are.
If you let that plant get near 90-100% cloudy, potency would be noticeably increased though.


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## Huel Perkins (Aug 26, 2012)

I guess i should have added a few more facts to my original post but i was highly medicated and already felt like i was was just rambling on... lol! Although i have let this strain go 14 weeks, it was a one time experiment and i generally harvest around 10 weeks. I know about CBN and have even lab tested this strain 3 times looking for answers. The highest CBN it tested at was .31% which was a sample that was harvested at 9 weeks, the lowest CBN it tested at was .24% which was a sample that was harvested at 11 weeks. I'm not out to harvest my plants loaded with amber trichs and CBN but i do like to experiment and question the common forum beliefs that the majority of people seem to follow. That is why i made this thread, to get people thinking...


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## atidd11 (Aug 26, 2012)

I know this will sound crazy but i only did it once. To half of one plant. When youre ready to harvest. Break the branches and skin em like really fuck em up and the next day the buds on that side will look much more done than the others. Its like the plant just finishes them. If u did it to a branch or two u might like the buds you get? Give it a try


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## medical/420 (Aug 26, 2012)

my buddys AK-47 does the same thing, but it seems after 11 weeks the quilty goes down.


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## iNFID3L (Aug 26, 2012)

is it because its auto flower ? 

just guessing....


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## IGTHY (Aug 26, 2012)

Huel Perkins said:


> I been growing the same cut AK-47 pheno for 4 or maybe even 5 years now. I love everything about the plant, structure, yield, aroma, potency but i have never been able to judge the trichomes to determine when it's perfectly ready for harvest.
> 
> It seems that the common forum belief here is that when the majority of the trichomes turn from clear to milky and when 20%-50% (depending of preference) turn from milky to amber it is ready for harvest. With this strain the breeder suggests a harvest after 7-8 weeks of flowering yet at 7-8 weeks my plant's trichomes are almost all still clear. I've actually let this strain go as long as 14 weeks and the trichs still never really achieve the 20%+ amber level. Another interesting trait is that the buds never really stop growing...
> 
> ...


Hey what's up Huel Perkins? Well the Ak-47 is what I call a "white strain" ;meaning that it's genetics are highly influenced with Sativa lineage. From my experience growing those "white strains" the resin heads never go Amber. The amber colors are found more in my Indicas. I will tell you this after about two months of flowering your plant is going to be harvest ready.


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## Huel Perkins (Aug 26, 2012)

medical/420 said:


> my buddys AK-47 does the same thing, but it seems after 11 weeks the quilty goes down.


That sounds about right. The best overall cannabinoid percentage and highest THC levels in the testing i've had done are from 9 and 10 week harvests.



iNFID3L said:


> is it because its auto flower ?
> 
> just guessing....


Defiantly not an auto, especially since i've had the same plant in veg for 5 years...



IGTHY said:


> Hey what's up Huel Perkins? Well the Ak-47 is what I call a "white strain" ;meaning that it's genetics are highly influenced with Sativa lineage. From my experience growing those "white strains" the resin heads never go Amber. The amber colors are found more in my Indicas. I will tell you this after about two months of flowering your plant is going to be harvest ready.


Its defiantly a sativa dominant strain, no question on that. I've never heard that reading trichomes to determine harvest time was an indica only thing but that would make sense, at least for this situation.

I will probably always continue to judge my plants by multiple things to determine when they are ready for harvest just as i've been doing. I will probably also continue to experiment and try new things rather than following others, there is so much more you can learn that way.


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## OldGrowAddict (Aug 26, 2012)

Qoute:
"Amber trichomes contain CBN which is the product of degraded THC and it represents a 90% loss of potency."
Source pleace, I'm sick and tired of forum-myths.

What's wrong with saying "I believe" before passing on info with no source. Not that you have to be wrong, it's not about that at all.

I know that CBN is formed by air/light over time, so it IS a degraded product, you are correct. But that is not all, really.
Cannabinoids *interact*, that is why they are so powerful. THC-only is not heaven.

I know CB*N* is "only" mildly phycoactive on it's OWN, but nobody knows the complex interactions.

Notice how everybody hypes CB*D* (which is not psychoactive)? Interactions are key.
It seems, non-phsycoactive CBD prolongs the high! So who knows what phsycoactive CBN does. There are at least 85 known cannabinoids interacting.

Rember THC-A (which fresh plants are fulll of)? 
The THC-A which will eventually get formed into regular THC automatically over time (or using ligher in a bong (heat)).

BUT, THC-A will ALSO form CB*N*! (and everybody seem to hate CB*N*).
What makes some THC-A to turn into THC, and some of it to CB*N* I do not understand.



Forming CB*D* is a separte pathway, and I belive genetics are imporant for CB*D*.

My point, this is all guessing. Nobody really knows. So experience is the only way.

BTW: 
But I do know this WAS the pathway science: CBG -> CBD -> THC. But this only happend in fiber-strains, which has a lot of CBD to work with.
Today the science is: CBG directly to THC (at least for drug-strains (too low in CBD)).



Edit: my main point was simply that more research and facts are needed, which are only beginning to appear. Today experience (different harvest times, to sample) are the way to go, IMHO.


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## k0ijn (Aug 27, 2012)

OldGrowAddict said:


> Qoute:
> "Amber trichomes contain CBN which is the product of degraded THC and it represents a 90% loss of potency."
> Source pleace, I'm sick and tired of forum-myths.
> 
> ...



It's quite funny that you say I pass information without souces when I'm one of the only guys on this forum who actually quotes references and places source links in my posts.
If you cared to read the link I posted or search my nick on the forum you would see I post references to sources..
I have posted my sources which includes research papers, biotech companies, books written by acclaimed scientists.

I don't have to say 'I believe' because it's not a matter of belief.
It's a matter of scientifically backed evidence & research.


It seems CBD prolongs the high? Where is your source for that statement?

CBD is hyped because of the many medical benifits.
Again, if you care to read the link I posted you would see my sources on this.

Do I remember THC-A? What kind of question is that.
No THC-A is not 'turned' into CBN. I don't know where you got this from but some THC-A (which is a pre-cursor acid) does not turn into THC and some into CBN.

THC-A is simply the precursor acid of THC.

THC can degrade into CBN, THC-A can't.


There is no need for guessing.
We do know a lot more about cannabinoids now than we did 5 years ago.

But you seem to have thoroughly misunderstood how cannabinoids are formed and which substances they are formed by and degrade into.

And you are stating your own beliefs and opinions as fact, which is alarming.
Because that is exactly what you are saying that I'm doing, without checking all the info I posted or the sources I refer to.


CBG does not form CBD which then forms THC.
That is completely false information. And what does fibre strains have to do with that?

Every cannabinoid is formed by it's particular precursor acid state.

CBD-A to CBD. 
THC-A to THC etc.

No, the science is not CBG to THC today, I have no idea where you have gotten that information from.


Please read all the information before you start to write off what I post as myths..


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## iNFID3L (Aug 27, 2012)

its a lot like a steak.

how do you like it !


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## Huel Perkins (Aug 27, 2012)

http://www.ironlabsllc.co/mobile/learn.php


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## k0ijn (Aug 27, 2012)

iNFID3L said:


> its a lot like a steak.
> 
> how do you like it !



The science speaks for itself.
Personal opinion and belief doesn't matter.




Huel Perkins said:


> http://www.ironlabsllc.co/mobile/learn.php



Hadn't seen that website before Huel but I skimmed it and it looks very nice and presentable.

They have the same information as the biotech company I link to (montana biotech).

CBN represents a 90% loss of potency (psycho activity) compared to THC.


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## Sencha (Aug 27, 2012)

Some plants won't finish unless you change the light cycle a tad. My source is Ed Rosenthal's Marijuana Grower's Handbook.


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## Capt. Stickyfingers (Aug 27, 2012)

Sencha said:


> Some plants won't finish unless you change the light cycle a tad. My source is Ed Rosenthal's Marijuana Grower's Handbook.


That would apply to some super long flowering sativas.
But speaking of trichs, I've had plants that went from clear to amber, no cloudy in-between.


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## zubey91 (Aug 27, 2012)

Huel Perkins said:


> I been growing the same cut AK-47 pheno for 4 or maybe even 5 years now. I love everything about the plant, structure, yield, aroma, potency but i have never been able to judge the trichomes to determine when it's perfectly ready for harvest.
> 
> It seems that the common forum belief here is that when the majority of the trichomes turn from clear to milky and when 20%-50% (depending of preference) turn from milky to amber it is ready for harvest. With this strain the breeder suggests a harvest after 7-8 weeks of flowering yet at 7-8 weeks my plant's trichomes are almost all still clear. I've actually let this strain go as long as 14 weeks and the trichs still never really achieve the 20%+ amber level. Another interesting trait is that the buds never really stop growing...
> 
> ...




i'm growing Nebula and its prety much doing the same thing... the trichs are all white and milky but hardly any are amber.. all fan leaves are turning bright yellow.. even the leafs coming out of he buds (sugar leaves) are turiing yellow.... 

its week 9 for me and all the buds have major fox tails and are still shooting out white pistals. i was gonna chop but it seems like each time new white hair growith comes in.. the pod its coming out of swells lke crazy once they recede and the bud gets bigger


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## Huel Perkins (Aug 27, 2012)

Sounds like harvest time to me.


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## zubey91 (Aug 27, 2012)

Huel Perkins said:


> Sounds like harvest time to me.




yeah i'm thinking the same thing man


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## iNFID3L (Aug 28, 2012)

k0ijn said:


> Personal opinion and belief doesn't matter.


my opinion only matters to me  

so ill keep it to myself


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## OldGrowAddict (Aug 30, 2012)

@k0ijn:

"THC can degrade into CBN, THC-A can't."

True, but you knew what I meant:
Some THC-A will become THC, which is a well known fact. Therefore some of the THC-A ends up as CBN, during drying & curing.

I never accused *YOU* for lack of sources in your posts on rollitup forums.
I don't know you, so I didn't know if you simply repeated forum-noise or not, which the majority do.

So I simply asked for the source of a SINGLE statement you wrote, I never even claimed it was wrong:
"Amber trichomes contain CBN which is the product of degraded THC and it represents a 90% loss of potency."

I never got the source from you.



I also wrote:
"
I know CBN is "only" mildly phycoactive on it's OWN, but nobody knows the complex interactions.

Notice how everybody hypes CBD (which is not psychoactive)? Interactions are key.
It seems, non-phsycoactive CBD prolongs the high! So who knows what phsycoactive CBN does. There are at least 85 known cannabinoids interacting.
"

I don't know why you reacted so strongly to this statement. I didn't try to discredit CBD. I wish my english was better. Maybe "high" and "hype" was the wrong words.

I never said it made the potency stronger, but I can see how my wording made you think that. I should have used "prolonged effect".

In fact, from memory: A study of MJ potency related to THC:CBD ratio. A high THC content only means a good high if accompanied by a low CBD content. As the CBD content increases relative to that of THC the high will be weakened and delayed.

So YES, I do know that CBD can act as an antagonist to THC (which means it "act against" the effect of THC).
But the world is not black and white, and interactions are hard for even scientists to understand. Really.


Personally, I belive CBD is acting as partial agonists too. The reason is sources like this:

"
From a general therapeutic perspective THC and CBD have important effects on one another when ingested together. When present along with THC, CBD prolongs the effects of THC-therapy by inhibiting the breakdown process of THC in our liver. If the THC breakdown is inhibited, its effects persist longer. When appreciable amounts of CBD (>4% CBD by weight for flowers) are ingested along with THC, the CBD may reduce the psychoactivity many patients would normally experience from the THC present. Exciting studies that are currently being conducted at California Pacific Medical Center in San Francisco are demonstrating that specific amounts of THC and CBD injected into breast and brain tumors can eliminate those tumors completely, in 30 days.
"


And I wrote that the pathways (the forming of THC etc) are not know for certain yet, there are currently at least two widely accepted views.

Wikipedia:
"
Cannabinoid production starts when an enzyme causes geranyl pyrophosphate and olivetolic acid to combine and form CBG.
Next, CBG is independently converted to either CBD or CBC by two separate synthase enzymes. CBD is then enzymatically cyclized to THC. For the propyl homologues (THCV, CBDV and CBNV), there is a similar pathway that is based on CBGV. (recent studies show that THC is not cyclized from CBD but rather directly from CBG. no experiment thus far has turned up an enzyme that converts CBD into THC although it is still hypothesized.)
"

Like I said, there are conflicting info out there even among scholars - science still has a lot to figure out.


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## k0ijn (Aug 30, 2012)

OldGrowAddict said:


> @k0ijn:
> 
> "THC can degrade into CBN, THC-A can't."
> 
> ...



The fact that THC-A becomes THC and that the THC can degrade into CBN does not relate to THC-A becoming CBN directly.
You can't just say that because CBN is the degradation product of THC then the precursor to THC, THC-A, ends up as CBN during drying & curing.

CBN is not just formed during drying & curing.
CBN can be formed due to bad conditions, light exposure and it's also formed continuously during the plants life by regular 'ageing' of trichomes, if you will.

It seems to me that you think fresh plants contain only THC-A and CBN is only formed during drying & curing.
I don't know why you have come to that conclusion but it's not correct.

This is a quote from you:

"*Rember THC-A (which fresh plants are fulll of)? 
The THC-A which will eventually get formed into regular THC automatically over time (or using ligher in a bong (heat)).

BUT, THC-A will ALSO form CBN! (and everybody seem to hate CBN)."*

Those statements are so misleading and show a lot of misunderstanding of which substances are formed when and how the degrade / reform into other substances.

I know you wanted that and my response will be exactly the same as it was before;
If you look through my posts on this subject you will see me referencing sources, including books, biotech companies, theses & research.

Instead of saying I talk bullshit straight away why didn't you just do a simple search and look at the sources presented?
Why do I have to source every repeat statement I make when I have already sourced the original argument in previous posts, readily available?

These are some of the sources I have mentioned numerous times in many different posts, most recently the trichome post:

Cannabinoid synthesis, pharmacology etc:

Books:

Cannabid and Cannabinoids:
Pharmacology, Toxicology, and Therapeutic Potential

Marijuana Chemistry:
Genetics, Processing And Potency

​montanabiotech.com





OldGrowAddict said:


> And I wrote that the pathways (the forming of THC etc) are not know for certain yet, there are currently at least two widely accepted views.
> 
> Wikipedia:
> "
> ...


Science has a lot to figure out but it also knows a lot about cannabinoids already, which is generally viewed as fact.

The science behind the synthesis of cannabinoids has been known for a while and is agreed upon.
There might be some uncertaincies with regards to the relationship of the -A & -V cannabinoids but the syntheses of the seperate THC - CBD - CBC etc are quite well known.
I'm not sure why you quote a section of wikipedia (and a section which has no references or sources) as a credible source but that is your call.

In fact I can point out a very obvious mistake in the wikipedia quote you made;

"...geranyl pyrophosphate and olivetolic acid combine and form CBG."

That's not the case. Geranyl pyrophosphate & Olivetolic acid combine to form CBG-A (the precursor acid which forms CBG).

And the crux of the point in:

"*(recent studies show that THC is not cyclized from CBD but rather directly from CBG. no experiment thus far has turned up an enzyme that converts CBD into THC although it is still hypothesized.)*"

is rather lost due to the fact that the wrong cannabinoids are mentioned.
The wikipedia section you quoted has skipped a lot of steps (or more likely; the person who wrote it on wikipedia does not really have a firm grasp of the processes).
THC is in _some_ way formed by CBG but not directly, not at all.
THC-A is derived from CBG-A, and THC is in turn derived from THC-A. Thus they are connected in a pathway if you will, but saying:

"*THC... (is formed)...directly from CBG.*"

Is just false and misleading.
I hope you can see the point I'm trying to make.
A lot of steps have been skipped, and it could well be the confusion.


If you look in my post on trichomes: https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/516184-trichomes-harvesting.html
You will find an image which explains rather well how different cannabinoids form and which paths they take.
That image is taken from a Biotech company who focus all their research on cannabis and cannabinoids in particular.

And in any case, I'll trust scientific research done by professionals over a wikipedia notation without references or sources.



And anyway you are now shifting the arguments over to something different.
The reason why I haven't responded to the stuff you wrote about CBD & THC interaction is that;

The relationship between CBD & THC was not questioned by me or anyone else.
The information you posted regarding how THC & CBD interacts has already been posted numerous times on these forums and most serious growers know of it.
There is nothing to have a discussion about there, you're simply stating facts which no one has argued against.

I agree with you on the interaction of cannabinoids but that was not a point of the original discussion and it's irrelevant.


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## k0ijn (Aug 30, 2012)

Oh, and it amuses me that Rumple will 'like' anything as long as it disagrees with what I've posted, no matter how devoid of facts, sources & references it is.

I find that people who smoke really good weed don't have to resort to this passive aggressive childish behaviour to please their emotions.


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## TheMan13 (Aug 30, 2012)

I've had a sativa dominate Cheese cut for years now that acts just like your AK-47 Huel. It has never ambered no matter how long I've let it go and it never really stops growing. That said, I have had great luck harvesting the tops and giving the bottoms a week or so longer to finish. The flush can be tough doing this, but when done right it's worth it.


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## Huel Perkins (Aug 30, 2012)

TheMan13 said:


> I've had a sativa dominate Cheese cut for years now that acts just like your AK-47 Huel. It has never ambered no matter how long I've let it go and it never really stops growing. That said, I have had great luck harvesting the tops and giving the bottoms a week or so longer to finish. The flush can be tough doing this, but when done right it's worth it.


I don't flush and my garden takes over a week for me to harvest. I'm not so worried about my harvest time, I just started this thread to spark conversation and hear others thoughts.


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## TheMan13 (Aug 30, 2012)

I hear ya Huel. IMHO you just have to judge the finish by the smell and fatness of the budz


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## HotShot7414 (Aug 30, 2012)

IGTHY said:


> Hey what's up Huel Perkins? Well the Ak-47 is what I call a "white strain" ;meaning that it's genetics are highly influenced with Sativa lineage. From my experience growing those "white strains" the resin heads never go Amber. The amber colors are found more in my Indicas. I will tell you this after about two months of flowering your plant is going to be harvest ready.


This is true sativas tend to just get cloudy and not amber and also takes long but it has a longer window of harvest.This is why when i grow a sativa dominant plant i watch for pistils mostly.


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## althor (Aug 30, 2012)

Ok here is my take on the amber/cloudy/clear issue. Not saying its right, but just what I get out of the back and forth conversations with "facts" to back up their side of the debate....

Cloudy trichs have the best thc. So I want to get the most cloudy heads I can possibly get from that plant for its peak.
Going on the basis of my past experiences...
Around 3 weeks into flowering I start seeing light crystal production.
Around 6 weeks I am seeing the heaviest crystal production.

I want the crystals formed at 6 weeks to turn cloudy, that will be my highest concentration of cloudy crystals.
That means that the crystals at 3 weeks in, are going to be past ripe, they will be turning amber. But, because that was my lowest trich production, it will be a low percentage of the total crystals.

I have crystals still forming at cut, so there will be a percentage of clear crystals as well. I want the balance of as few clear, as few amber, and as many cloudies as I can get.


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## mipainpatient (Aug 31, 2012)

bros. remember the terpenoids. I've harvested @ 80% clear and had pleasant results: super dreamy yet inspiring and motivational---did a myrcene friendly cure (low temps, 6-9 day dry then jar burp etc) if this concept is foreign you need to find the peer-reviewed MJ curing study (academic paper search for terms "brown bag cannabis terpenoids air" should pull it up-----chart of major terpenoid degradation at 4 intervals was a goldmine) same strain, heavy indica, was a sleeper at 10% amber
Also this whole thread about trichs turning and no mention of lighting type. As if we all grew under the same spectrum and said spectrum had 0 effect on the outcomes. Find the New Zealand police-funded peer-reviewed study of SCROG technique (apparently they kept busting grows with this new method that also look more pro) they observed as large as a 22% difference in THC content between nugs on the same plant/same grow (i believe they did three hydro runs) just saying light source/distance/and apical dominance should be affecting everything too. HP do you top that AK or is it central leader style (untopped, apical meristem is dominant)?
mpp out


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## Dice Clay (Aug 31, 2012)

Huel Perkins said:


> What does it matter if a bud only contains THCA, when you smoke, vape or cook it the decarboxylation process instantly transforms THCA to THC. Unless you're planning to just eat you buds raw, what does it matter?



this is why I love your posts... based in scientific fact aptly utilized in a coherent and logical thought. Too many people here think that cutting and pasting a paragraph from wiki is the end all ....


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## mr. green thumb 01 (Aug 31, 2012)

Huel Perkins said:


> I been growing the same cut AK-47 pheno for 4 or maybe even 5 years now. I love everything about the plant, structure, yield, aroma, potency but i have never been able to judge the trichomes to determine when it's perfectly ready for harvest.
> 
> It seems that the common forum belief here is that when the majority of the trichomes turn from clear to milky and when 20%-50% (depending of preference) turn from milky to amber it is ready for harvest. With this strain the breeder suggests a harvest after 7-8 weeks of flowering yet at 7-8 weeks my plant's trichomes are almost all still clear. I've actually let this strain go as long as 14 weeks and the trichs still never really achieve the 20%+ amber level. Another interesting trait is that the buds never really stop growing...
> 
> ...



wow, this thread has turned into a clear cloudy amber argument lol. If I had a nickle for all of these lmao!! None really even relevant to the OP. 

So anyway Im not sure what your grow style in hydro dirt nft or whatever but when I get strains that like to do this...mostly sativas or sativa dominant hybrids I like to bump up mu (k) late in flower to try to harden the flowers. High (p) late in flower goes also seems to cause re-growth. When a strain does not like to finish or keeps growing new buds on top of buds, fox tailing or whatever you can WATER LESS OFTEN or if its dwc significantly drop the level of your water maybe say half or even 3/4 byebye, theyll live just fine like this especially later in flower. But the thing is when you do this your giving the plant the optical illusion the end is coming or WINTER. Normally plants are use to less and less water as the fall approaches. Also when trying this do this once and see how you like it. Once close to harvest or 75%red pistals, or when trichs are nice and cloudy (or wherever you like to harvest) slowly decrease the watering and then bam just stop watering all together and watch her go into survival mode hairs rapidly recede and fox tailing or re-budding stops. You'll be surprised just how long she will survive with no water. Also there is additives to help push plants through what I like to refer to as the still time in flower right before ripen. Oh and one more thing I just thought of make sure your not banging her out with high ppm's late in flower because this seems to do it also. Rainbow your ppm's and your waterings as you feel the plants life cycle speeds and slows. If possible they love a rainbow of temp too. Nice and cold late in flower or a good bit colder then optimum grow temp. All these are signals to help the plant realize the end is coming and seems to speed up harvest and even quality! Good luck!

My source is me


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## Huel Perkins (Aug 31, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> bros. remember the terpenoids. I've harvested @ 80% clear and had pleasant results: super dreamy yet inspiring and motivational---did a myrcene friendly cure (low temps, 6-9 day dry then jar burp etc) if this concept is foreign you need to find the peer-reviewed MJ curing study (academic paper search for terms "brown bag cannabis terpenoids air" should pull it up-----chart of major terpenoid degradation at 4 intervals was a goldmine) same strain, heavy indica, was a sleeper at 10% amber
> Also this whole thread about trichs turning and no mention of lighting type. As if we all grew under the same spectrum and said spectrum had 0 effect on the outcomes. Find the New Zealand police-funded peer-reviewed study of SCROG technique (apparently they kept busting grows with this new method that also look more pro) they observed as large as a 22% difference in THC content between nugs on the same plant/same grow (i believe they did three hydro runs) just saying light source/distance/and apical dominance should be affecting everything too. HP do you top that AK or is it central leader style (untopped, apical meristem is dominant)?
> mpp out


No big central main cola, No topping or training needed, this plant grows wider than it does tall with a nice even canopy of 10+ colas after a 3 week veg.




Dice Clay said:


> this is why I love your posts... based in scientific fact aptly utilized in a coherent and logical thought. Too many people here think that cutting and pasting a paragraph from wiki is the end all ....


Thanks!



mr. green thumb 01 said:


> wow, this thread has turned into a clear cloudy amber argument lol. If I had a nickle for all of these lmao!! None really even relevant to the OP.
> 
> So anyway Im not sure what your grow style in hydro dirt nft or whatever but when I get strains that like to do this...mostly sativas or sativa dominant hybrids I like to bump up mu (k) late in flower to try to harden the flowers. High (p) late in flower goes also seems to cause re-growth. When a strain does not like to finish or keeps growing new buds on top of buds, fox tailing or whatever you can WATER LESS OFTEN or if its dwc significantly drop the level of your water maybe say half or even 3/4 byebye, theyll live just fine like this especially later in flower. But the thing is when you do this your giving the plant the optical illusion the end is coming or WINTER. Normally plants are use to less and less water as the fall approaches. Also when trying this do this once and see how you like it. Once close to harvest or 75%red pistals, or when trichs are nice and cloudy (or wherever you like to harvest) slowly decrease the watering and then bam just stop watering all together and watch her go into survival mode hairs rapidly recede and fox tailing or re-budding stops. You'll be surprised just how long she will survive with no water. Also there is additives to help push plants through what I like to refer to as the still time in flower right before ripen. Oh and one more thing I just thought of make sure your not banging her out with high ppm's late in flower because this seems to do it also. Rainbow your ppm's and your waterings as you feel the plants life cycle speeds and slows. If possible they love a rainbow of temp too. Nice and cold late in flower or a good bit colder then optimum grow temp. All these are signals to help the plant realize the end is coming and seems to speed up harvest and even quality! Good luck!
> 
> My source is me


I've always grown this strain in hydro (dwc). As long as i've been going this strain i've tested 4 different nutrient lines and all sorts of additives, i've done grows with heavy feedings, light feedings, low rez levels, high rez levels, you name it, beneficials, H2O2, ect. Now i just focus on keeping the plants as healthy as i can using cheap nutes and very few additives.


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## Wilksey (Aug 31, 2012)

Bought a vape here recently and decided to futz around with it using some lower micro-buds growing on the bottom of my plants. They were in week 6 of flower, white "pistols" to the max, with a few here and there starting to darken, and a bunch of clear trichs.

"What the hell?"

Thought I....

I didn't expect much since they were incomplete, and figured I'd at least get some lovely flavor at the minimum. However, like the Death Star in Return of the Jedi, those little buds may not have been totally finished, but they were fully operational. Granted, my tolerance was literally zero since I hadn't used cannabis since Moses was a private, but the tiny amount I vaped, pretty much kicked my ass, and the plants aren't even done.

I don't know the chemistry, however, the tiny buds I vaped certainly were effective despite the fact they were covered with clear trichs. I've got 2 AK's that just hit week 7, and I'll be looking for the milky trichs as a harvest sign. We'll see how that goes. 

Interesting thread.

Thanks for the references, and happy growing.


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## k0ijn (Sep 1, 2012)

Wilksey said:


> Bought a vape here recently and decided to futz around with it using some lower micro-buds growing on the bottom of my plants. They were in week 6 of flower, white "pistols" to the max, with a few here and there starting to darken, and a bunch of clear trichs.
> 
> "What the hell?"
> 
> ...



A lot of variables need to be taken into account.
Strain is probably the most important since a 6 week plant can be near completion if it's a fast growing Indica and it can be only half way done if it's a Sativa with a long flowering period.
Therefore it's hard to say exactly how well matured your plant was, and how many cloudy / amber trichs were present with at least some psychoactive effect. 

I've sampled Indicas & hybrids in the 6th-7th week of flowering which have knocked me on my arse, even uncured.
And some of them clearly weren't done and did indeed improve tenfold on the already noticeable high after a full flowering period and a proper dry & cure.


But the point I'm trying to make is that there is a huge difference between smoking underdeveloped weed (trichomes) and fully developed weed.
And depending on many variables it can take anywhere from 5 weeks to 10 weeks before a reasonable potency is reached (not peak potency, but the imaginary line where clear trichomes are outnumbered (or close to being outnumbered) by cloudy & amber trichomes).

I get that the example you used has meaning to you but without more information it's hard for me to use it to make any conclusion.
Since you could well have had a strain with a shorter than average flowering period which might have had quite a few cloudy trichomes and some amber, which explains the effect you got from it.
But if you had a strain with a 8-10 week flowering period you only got a taste of the high, it would not have been "fully operational" yet but only give you a hint of what the high can be from that particular strain. It might feel to you like it was on full blast but that could be down to you not having smoked in a while.


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## HTP (Sep 1, 2012)

I have a head ache now ... Thanks.


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## k0ijn (Sep 1, 2012)

HTP said:


> I have a head ache now ... Thanks.


I apologize, I'll send some SSH with a high CBD percentage right over.
Should clear up the headache quickly.


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## Nizza (Sep 1, 2012)

i heard once that too much N will make it flower badly and not ripen right


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## k0ijn (Sep 1, 2012)

Nizza said:


> i heard once that too much N will make it flower badly and not ripen right


Wrong ratios of nutrients compared to the other nutrients in any solution, for any nutrient, can harm the plant.


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## Huel Perkins (Sep 1, 2012)

This is the AK-47 at 12 weeks.



Huel Perkins said:


> The other strain was AK-47
> 
> 9-THC = 12.54%
> 8-THC = .5%
> ...


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## Huel Perkins (Sep 1, 2012)

This is at 9 weeks...



Huel Perkins said:


> *
> AK-47
> *9-THC - 15.04%
> 8-THC - 0.04%
> ...


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## HotShot7414 (Sep 1, 2012)

Ak-47 is sativa dominant the trichs could possibly not turn amber or very little,believe it or not a lot of sativa or sativa dominant plants does this that's why it is recommended to harvest when trichs are cloudy opposed to indica which is harvest when amber.This has even happened in some indica grows but usually the cause is human error with indica.


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## Huel Perkins (Sep 1, 2012)

While we're at it here is another strain i grow, while although the numbers sound like its a more potent strain it doesn't wreck me as bad as the AK does...



Huel Perkins said:


> *The Jeffrey*
> 9-THC - 19.42%
> 8-THC - 0.02%
> CBC - 0.02%
> ...


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## haight (Sep 1, 2012)

Huel Perkins said:


> This is at 9 weeks...


Looks good to go to me


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## BA142 (Sep 1, 2012)

k0ijn said:


> I find that people who smoke really good weed don't have to resort to this passive aggressive childish behaviour to please their emotions.


I find that people who smoke really good weed don't have abide by 1 set of rules to grow potent sensi...just sayin


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## atidd11 (Sep 2, 2012)

Huel Perkins said:


> While we're at it here is another strain i grow, while although the numbers sound like its a more potent strain it doesn't wreck me as bad as the AK does...
> 
> Id loveeee to smoke that shit


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## bazoomer (Sep 2, 2012)

just smoke the bstard stuff !


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## Dice Clay (Sep 2, 2012)

I just saw the bud pictures... that last one made me cum in my pants........


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## k0ijn (Sep 2, 2012)

BA142 said:


> I find that people who smoke really good weed don't have abide by 1 set of rules to grow potent sensi...just sayin


How is abiding by scientific research, studies and evidence equivalent to '1 set of rules'? 

It's the exact opposite, nothing is factual until it's been rigorously proven by 'countless' seperate tests.

This is after all a plant, and a very sturdy genus at that.
You can basically toss the seeds on some moist soil and you will see growth.

Doesn't mean there aren't ways of maximising potency, yield, look, taste etc.


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## rocpilefsj (Sep 2, 2012)

My head hurts... 

Great info from all sides guys!


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## Dice Clay (Sep 2, 2012)

I should have said what is psycho active instead of "what gets you high"


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## Coho (Sep 2, 2012)

That was a fun read. How many have seen white pistils with all cloudy trichs and some amber.? ( yes tiny clear ones). Cut or wait..opinions please. Will the buds swell more but degrade? I have one strain that does this. Hawaiian Rush..I cut. Put me on my ass. Thinking of this next run.


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## Sir.Ganga (Sep 3, 2012)

Why do you people think different strains have different buzzes? Its because of the different mixes of cannabinoids! You people get so involved in prooving your point you forget the questions. Amber trichs may be classed a degrading but that is what makes a couch lock is the ambers mixing and changing the affects. It comes down to what you what from a strain, a young strain will give you a more alert high and older strain more of a couch lock and more medicinal.

It was mentioned that some people do not flush, flushing with water only, will hurry the girls along and should show amber thrichs a little quicker, if that is your goal.


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## k0ijn (Sep 3, 2012)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Why do you people think different strains have different buzzes? Its because of the different mixes of cannabinoids! You people get so involved in prooving your point you forget the questions. Amber trichs may be classed a degrading but that is what makes a couch lock is the ambers mixing and changing the affects. It comes down to what you what from a strain, a young strain will give you a more alert high and older strain more of a couch lock and more medicinal.
> 
> It was mentioned that some people do not flush, flushing with water only, will hurry the girls along and should show amber thrichs a little quicker, if that is your goal.


It's down to the genetics of the plant.
But the couch-lock effect does not stem from CBN.

Whether a strain delivers a couch-lock effect or an energetic effect is down to the phenotype.
A Sativa strain will deliver an energetic high.
An Indica strain will deliver a couch-lock high.
Hybrids can bring the best of both phenotypes (or worst if the genetics are bad).

Saying that a 'young' strain (whatever you mean by that I don't know) delivers an alert high and that an older strain delivers a couch-lock high is not factually accurate.

Your flushing argument seems like a regular pre-harvest flushing argument a la pushing out trichomes faster, removing chem taste.
Which have no supporting evidence and are therefore easily disproven.


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## RexRacer420 (Sep 3, 2012)

Are you using Serious Seeds AK-47?

My latest AK-47 grow (on which you posted a response - thank you) went by the book - or reasonably so - I had about 20% amber trichomes on day 61 - at which point I harvested - and early smoke reports are really good.

But I used a Digital USB microscope to view the trichomes - I can't hold a jeweler's loupe steady enough to do any good.

That was only my second grow, so I can't post advice as an expert. But things went really well from planting to harvest...good luck


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## mr. green thumb 01 (Sep 3, 2012)

was following thread.. you guys back & forth...Making my head spin.

Need to-
Talk short. Make sense. Less reading for me to do. No need to recite the whole thread. No need to try to sound like a weed professor.
lol
lol


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## Huel Perkins (Sep 4, 2012)

RexRacer420 said:


> Are you using Serious Seeds AK-47?
> 
> My latest AK-47 grow (on which you posted a response - thank you) went by the book - or reasonably so - I had about 20% amber trichomes on day 61 - at which point I harvested - and early smoke reports are really good.
> 
> ...


Yup, AK-47 from Serious Seeds. I use a cheap 100x scope I bought off ebay a few years ago.


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## Wilksey (Sep 25, 2012)

My AK's pretty much did the same thing.

Serious seeds (supposedly, they didn't come in the original packaging) under a 600W HPS.

I vegged em' for about 7 weeks, which was long enough to see pre-flowering and confirm sex before I flipped them. I've seen other AK grows harvest around 63 days, but my trics were cloudy / clear at that time.

Chopped em' day 70, and they're still drying.


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## bleuballz (Nov 15, 2012)

Oh man, I had that problem with my last outdoor plant.
unknown strain. Went way too long for me. 
Like 14 1/2 weeks! And still barely any amber.
had to chop because bud worms were after her bad!
But unlike you, I'm not happy with the final product.


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## dwight smokum (Nov 30, 2012)

thanks for the read guys.


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## BigBuddahCheese (Dec 1, 2012)

HotShot7414 said:


> This is true sativas tend to just get cloudy and not amber and also takes long but it has a longer window of harvest.This is why when i grow a sativa dominant plant i watch for pistils mostly.



Well my last super lemon haze was as sativa as you can get and it turned amber.. Almost too much but devastating smoke.

I think it's more about giving the plants what they need to finish... I used to have issues with amber now almost every strain turns since my nutrients are tweaked when needed.


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## Jogro (Dec 2, 2012)

Just came across this thread

Interesting, I had the same experience with (don't mock) a schwagg plant I recently grew (see my sig below for the full grow report). 

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/584136-mexican-brick-bagseed-growing-out-2.html#post8269002

I don't really know the genetics of this plant for sure, but I think its a safe bet that its from commercially grown Mexican circa '99 or 2000. Buds were purchased as schwagg (not by me) in NY area around that time. 

Trichomes never turned brown/amber. . ever. Eventually chopped it at about 12 weeks flower. By the time I did, it was foxtailing and still putting out new buds. I didn't mention in the thread, but by this point most of the fan-leaves had yellowed, and were removed. 

My take on this is that after the calyxes swell, and the pistils mostly go brown, and the fan leaves are yellow, you're done, regardless of the trichrome color. Amber trichromes are just one sign of maturity, and not every strain shows it.


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## 12731273a (Feb 11, 2021)

yes i have grown strains like that let me add in what i also had happen to my plants the heads of the tricones fall off if i wait for the amber tricones


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## Anonymouskilla13 (Mar 9, 2021)

Sencha said:


> Some plants won't finish unless you change the light cycle a tad. My source is Ed Rosenthal's Marijuana Grower's Handbook.


I also add more darkness time in the last 2 weeks and also I use slightly colder water also,it seems that also helps,has anyone tried this and also what adjustments to your light schedule do you make?


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