# Vertical setup possible issue



## George2324 (Jan 1, 2019)

I’ve just finished building a vertical system using 6 inch pvc pipe. A sort of NFT system with plants stacked on top of each other.

I was expecting the plants to grow at around a 45 degree angle towards the vertical lights..

However it looks to me like the clones I placed in the netpots have suddenly turned directly upwards and are growing into each other.

How do people avoid this?


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## Hot Diggity Sog (Jan 1, 2019)

You just have to push them a little inward. Pics please.


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## ttystikk (Jan 4, 2019)

What is your light source?

If you want more phototropic response, you'll need lighting with more blue. HPS won't cut it.


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## George2324 (Jan 6, 2019)

Sorry for delay here’s a photo 

Par meter has me at average 700ppfd 60cm from my lights it’s a custom cob rig I made. 

They seem to be turning directly up in the direction of gravity. 

How can I get them to face the lights?


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## George2324 (Jan 6, 2019)

Found this online very similar to mine.

But mine for some reason are growing up


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## George2324 (Jan 7, 2019)

Yeah this is definitely gonna cause me some
Problems they are growing directly up for some reason. 

Anyone got any ideas about this?


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## bygmyke (Jan 7, 2019)

Sorry I dont have any advice to help you out...I was just curious as to see what the rest of your set up looks like? Your hydro system in particular


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## gr865 (Jan 7, 2019)

ttystikk said:


> What is your light source?
> 
> If you want more phototropic response, you'll need lighting with more blue. HPS won't cut it.


Wow, hi Stikk, hows tricks? Hope all is super with you. Haven't seen you in a bit.


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## George2324 (Jan 8, 2019)

bygmyke said:


> Sorry I dont have any advice to help you out...I was just curious as to see what the rest of your set up looks like? Your hydro system in particular


The photo I’ve shown is my hydro system not much more to see really.
Just more and more stacks of pipe like that. I have rainbird sprinklers at the top of the pipes spraying oxygenated Water down the pipes and it falls back into the water res underneath

I’m quite screwed atm though as they are starting to enter faster veg growth and nothing I do will stop them growing against gravity.

It’s like plants are programmed to grow against gravity and not towards light which we know is not true...


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## George2324 (Jan 8, 2019)

Hot Diggity Sog said:


> You just have to push them a little inward. Pics please.


Do you have any ideas about this? I’ve pushed them down as far as I can but the tips still seem to then turn upwards


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## gr865 (Jan 8, 2019)

Your lights must not be powerful enough to cause positive phototropism. Here is a pic of one of my older grows showing that response, but they are still growing upwards. My plants are tied back to a screen, they still lean toward the light.


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## bygmyke (Jan 8, 2019)

Do you think it's too late into flower to try and get em bent like you would if you was super cropping?


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## rob333 (Jan 8, 2019)

George2324 said:


> Found this online very similar to mine.
> 
> But mine for some reason are growing up


how many leds do u want ? add a few more lol


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## George2324 (Jan 9, 2019)

rob333 said:


> how many leds do u want ? add a few more lol


My lights are 30w per sq ft with 50% efficiency par meter puts 700ppfd at the canopy.
Nodes are so tight. I think it could be because I designed my system so that I could have the lights far away from the “pots” 

Currently the lights are 90cm from the canopy but still produce 700ppfd that far away. 

I will veg my clones longer in a veg room next time to make them taller and that may help. It’s the only thing I can think of


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## George2324 (Jan 23, 2019)

Anyone got any idea on how I can train these plants to increase yield?

They are getting 800ppfd at the canopy but are only very very slightly leaning towards the light

They are growing very slightly on an angle but nowhere near as much as I’d like them to be.


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## In.Home.Rhizome (Jan 26, 2019)

George2324 said:


> Anyone got any idea on how I can train these plants to increase yield?
> 
> They are getting 800ppfd at the canopy but are only very very slightly leaning towards the light
> 
> They are growing very slightly on an angle but nowhere near as much as I’d like them to be.


Really like the system! 
Do you plan to scrog these? That's the route I'd go! 
If you had the downpipe running at a 45° instead of vertically and angled ur light the same in a tiered style u would get an increase in canopy size and the plants wldnt grow into each other....
I'd think about wrapping the pipework in something white as well cld help!


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## George2324 (Jan 26, 2019)

In.Home.Rhizome said:


> Really like the system!
> Do you plan to scrog these? That's the route I'd go!
> If you had the downpipe running at a 45° instead of vertically and angled ur light the same in a tiered style u would get an increase in canopy size and the plants wldnt grow into each other....
> I'd think about wrapping the pipework in something white as well cld help!


I didn’t plan to Scrog I was hoping to sog them but with them not growing outwards towards the light I’ve just ended up with a mass of huge fan leaves I’ve just trimmed thousands of fan leaves and all the bud sites are bright yellow from not getting light. 

I hope they recover. 

Im thinking if i switch my strain to a single cola strain like chronic or maybe blue dream and flower after 2 week veg and let them stretch in my normal horizontal veg room. I’ll move them to this flower room after stretch and hopefully they will already be facing forward toward the light and won’t change direction


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## Sparky123 (Jan 26, 2019)

Rent pics ?


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## George2324 (Jan 26, 2019)

Sparky123 said:


> Rent pics ?


Rent? Eh?


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## Sparky123 (Jan 26, 2019)

Sorry that was supposed to write recent


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## Stealthstyle (Jan 26, 2019)

With vertical SOG's they often grow up until the buds get heavy enough to head sideways towards the light. 1 week veg is recomended and 8 inches between clones in all directions,- up above, below and side by side.


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## Thundercat (Jan 26, 2019)

Sounds like you should get your lights closer if you want them to react more. I keep my 1k hps 12-14 inches from my canopy and get no light burn. Lots of experienced LeD growers know you can keep LEDs the same distance some times even closer. 

I don't understand this new generation of growers that think it's ok to keep lights so far away from plants. You all need to read up on the inverse square law. 

I dig the vertical nft btw. I thought about doing something similar a few years ago. I would suggest mounting some support lines/net in front of your pipes. That will give you something you train the plants "down" to and help encourage them to grow outwards instead of up.


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## George2324 (Jan 26, 2019)

Thundercat said:


> Sounds like you should get your lights closer if you want them to react more. I keep my 1k hps 12-14 inches from my canopy and get no light burn. Lots of experienced LeD growers know you can keep LEDs the same distance some times even closer.
> 
> I don't understand this new generation of growers that think it's ok to keep lights so far away from plants. You all need to read up on the inverse square law.
> 
> I dig the vertical nft btw. I thought about doing something similar a few years ago. I would suggest mounting some support lines/net in front of your pipes. That will give you something you train the plants "down" to and help encourage them to grow outwards instead of up.


I have a par meter. The canopy is currently 75cm from the lights and getting 800ppfd I don’t see how moving lights closer would make a difference unless plants actually know how far away lights are even though they are getting insane amounts of light


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## Thundercat (Jan 26, 2019)

800ppfd really isn't insane though. I'd have to look for them, but I've read several studies over the years that closer to 1500ppfd is ideal for cannabis. Do you understand the inverse square law, the farther away you have your plants from your lights causes exponentially less light is getting to them? At 75cm you quite literally are getting 1/9th of the light that your cobs are producing. 







It would seem that the sun produces well over 1500 and much closer to 2000 ppfd, so your 800 really isn't high at all.





*Photosynthetic photon flux density (PPFD) measured in full sunlight (FS), under wooden slat (SL), shade cloth (CL) and trees (T) under typical clear sunny (a–c) or overcast (d–f) sky conditions in mid-summer (6–10th January 2000) in Canterbury, New Zealand*

I didn't see what kind of wattage your running, but if you want a stronger phototropic response get more light on them. The other option if your afraid to get them closer, is to turn them up. Running your lights at 50% might be good for your electric bill, but its no good for growing weed.


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## George2324 (Jan 28, 2019)

Your analysis of that data is flawed though. Max ppfd of around 2000 was only at peak noon for an hour. The average ppfd would be more like 800-1000.

If I moved my cobs closer and gave them 1600 ppfd that would be 1600ppfd for 12 hours straight which would be nearly double the amount of light output by the sun over the course of the day, which would almost cirtainly cause light bleaching

And inverse square law doesn’t really apply to multiple light sources hence how I have 800 ppfd at nearly a meter away from the cobs. I’m using 60w per square foot with 50% efficiency


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## Thundercat (Jan 28, 2019)

George2324 said:


> Your analysis of that data is flawed though. Max ppfd of around 2000 was only at peak noon for an hour. The average ppfd would be more like 800-1000.
> 
> If I moved my cobs closer and gave them 1600 ppfd that would be 1600ppfd for 12 hours straight which would be nearly double the amount of light output by the sun over the course of the day, which would almost cirtainly cause light bleaching
> 
> And inverse square law doesn’t really apply to multiple light sources hence how I have 800 ppfd at nearly a meter away from the cobs. I’m using 60w per square foot with 50% efficiency


Actually I didn't analyze it wrong the data shows a peak of roughly 2k. With 6 full hours over 1500 and only 2-2.5 hours in the morning or night under 1k. With a rough calculation of the average of those charts, your looking at 1600 ppfd from the sun . Obviously without having precise hourly numbers I can't be exact, but I simply isolated the 12hours in the middle and carefully used a straight edge to try to estimate the correct values. Even if I was off a little the average is still WAAAY over 1000 ppfd. 

Inverse square law still applies sorry you can't change basic science. You can treat each diode alone or together as a single light source and the rules still apply. 

I don't care what the OP or anyone does. I'm literally just sharing some lighting laws. The OP wanted more phototropic response from his plants. I offered the advice to try to mimic the sun better then you are.....


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## TheHarvester (Feb 6, 2019)

Thundercat said:


> Actually I didn't analyze it wrong the data shows a peak of roughly 2k. With 6 full hours over 1500 and only 2-2.5 hours in the morning or night under 1k. With a rough calculation of the average of those charts, your looking at 1600 ppfd from the sun . Obviously without having precise hourly numbers I can't be exact, but I simply isolated the 12hours in the middle and carefully used a straight edge to try to estimate the correct values. Even if I was off a little the average is still WAAAY over 1000 ppfd.
> 
> Inverse square law still applies sorry you can't change basic science. You can treat each diode alone or together as a single light source and the rules still apply.
> 
> I don't care what the OP or anyone does. I'm literally just sharing some lighting laws. The OP wanted more phototropic response from his plants. I offered the advice to try to mimic the sun better then you are.....



The man speaks the truth. I think the actual physics speak for it self. Your plants aren't reacting to the light, hence it isn't intense enough.
That would be the first indicator.

I have a vertical 1000 HPS and the plants angle and grow towards it. Up still, but they angle towards the light and the leaves almost for sideways.


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## Norwegian Fisherman (Feb 26, 2019)

Cool! I built the same system, but had too chop the plants few days in to 12/12 as my girlfriend put her foot down.
Would love to see an update on how you are doing!


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## Thundercat (Feb 26, 2019)

Norwegian Fisherman said:


> Cool! I built the same system, but had too chop the plants few days in to 12/12 as my girlfriend put her foot down.
> Would love to see an update on how you are doing!


WTF kind of excuse is that? I'm not trying to be mean I promise, but how do you get plants all the way to 12/12 in a vert system, and THEN your gf puts her foot down? Either she should have been on board from the beginning or you should have told her to suck it when you were trying to flower your plants you spent time growing.


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## Norwegian Fisherman (Feb 26, 2019)

Thundercat said:


> WTF kind of excuse is that? I'm not trying to be mean I promise, but how do you get plants all the way to 12/12 in a vert system, and THEN your gf puts her foot down? Either she should have been on board from the beginning or you should have told her to suck it when you were trying to flower your plants you spent time growing.


Not even gonna dignify that with an answer.
I was asking how the project was going, not asking for someone to tell me anything about me chopping my plants and quit growing.


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## Thundercat (Feb 26, 2019)

Norwegian Fisherman said:


> Not even gonna dignify that with an answer.
> I was asking how the project was going, not asking for someone to tell me anything about me chopping my plants and quit growing.


Dude don't get your panties in a bunch, I really wasn't trying to be a jerk. If you had a legit reason to quit growing I get that, I've been in tough spots. I'm saying don't blame it on your GF, unless I guess she is a shitty gf and was threatening to report you or something in which case fuck her. Otherwise she knew you were growing I assume and you let her shut you down which is sad. I'm sorry it happened to you. 

Also for the record I'd love to hear from the OP what happened with his plants. But if you post on any of these forums, don't get mad when people comment to you or on your posts, its part of being on a forum....


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## George2324 (Feb 26, 2019)

Thundercat said:


> Dude don't get your panties in a bunch, I really wasn't trying to be a jerk. If you had a legit reason to quit growing I get that, I've been in tough spots. I'm saying don't blame it on your GF, unless I guess she is a shitty gf and was threatening to report you or something in which case fuck her. Otherwise she knew you were growing I assume and you let her shut you down which is sad. I'm sorry it happened to you.
> 
> Also for the record I'd love to hear from the OP what happened with his plants. But if you post on any of these forums, don't get mad when people comment to you or on your posts, its part of being on a forum....


They are starting week 6 now getting good amount of growth on them.
They ended up growing into each other so I’ve just done massive defoliation like 4 times during 12/12 so far.

For someone to say 800ppfd isn’t enough
Though.. needs to check the ppfd values of 99% of growers on here who used hps.

The tops are closer to lights now and are getting 1050ppfd At the tops.

This picture was taking last week at start of week 5


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## George2324 (Feb 26, 2019)

I’ve got seedlings started in a veg room atm for the next round. 

I’m gonna flower them between 6-8 inches and go for a single cola style and see what I can get.

I’ll leave them for first 3 weeks in my veg room in a normal horizontal grow and then move them to the vert room and see if that prevents them growing into each other


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## Thundercat (Feb 26, 2019)

George2324 said:


> They are starting week 6 now getting good amount of growth on them.
> They ended up growing into each other so I’ve just done massive defoliation like 4 times during 12/12 so far.
> 
> For someone to say 800ppfd isn’t enough
> ...


I wasn't trying to criticize man, just offer a reason the plants weren't reacting how you wanted or expected. Sorry if I came off rudely, I try not to but it happens online some times. It seems like they have done a good amount of growing "towards" the lights at this point. They look nice and healthy glad to see things are going well now. I definitely think with this style grow the single cola plants might suit you better so that should be cool to see.


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## George2324 (Feb 26, 2019)

Thundercat said:


> I wasn't trying to criticize man, just offer a reason the plants weren't reacting how you wanted or expected. Sorry if I came off rudely, I try not to but it happens online some times. It seems like they have done a good amount of growing "towards" the lights at this point. They look nice and healthy glad to see things are going well now. I definitely think with this style grow the single cola plants might suit you better so that should be cool to see.


No worries. I didn’t think you were doing anything bad pal. I just disagreed with some points you made about the 800 ppfd not being much. 90% of growers on here won’t hit 800 ppfd.

The inverse square law I can guarantee you though does apply however in my application it’s very minimal.

Inverse square law doesn’t say light is half the amount at double the distance. It’s the same amount of light just spread out from the light source.

Now if you take my setup where I have 360 cobs. Each one spreads out into each other. So my edges may lose some light due to reflection but other than that any inverse square “losses” are regained by the next plant


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## Thundercat (Feb 26, 2019)

Just to be clear I didn't say "800 is not much light", I said it wasn't insanely high. Hopefully you end(ed) up getting what you want from the grow.


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