# Led will eliminate both sided lighting of hps



## mastaautoflowerer (Apr 11, 2021)

I always thought being able to use each side of a bulb(no reflector) was a large part of verts efficiency. If one were to go to led this wouldnt be the case and twice the lights would be necessary. Would this actually be more efficient? Seems like this is a unique scenario where hid might be better.
What are u guys thoughts on this?


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## Johiem (Apr 11, 2021)

The same. That is unless you diy'd up an led tube. Been considering this kind of setup, just don't know crap about drivers.


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## a mongo frog (Apr 11, 2021)

mastaautoflowerer said:


> hid might be better.


Yea HID is better. Happy gardening!!!!


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## Rocket Soul (Apr 11, 2021)

There are some double-sided led lights but they aren't really made for grow. But you can fairly easily diy it if you like, you'd still get close to twice the light per watt.


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## bk78 (Apr 11, 2021)

a mongo frog said:


> Yea HID is better. Happy gardening!!!!


You’re wrong


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## a mongo frog (Apr 11, 2021)

bk78 said:


> You’re wrong


Oh shit my bad. Thanks for the correction!! You know these internets, a lot of bad info going around.


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## bk78 (Apr 11, 2021)

a mongo frog said:


> Oh shit my bad. Thanks for the correction!! You know these internets, a lot of bad info going around.


At least you admit your wrong doing.
+rep


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## cobshopgrow (Apr 11, 2021)

mastaautoflowerer said:


> Would this actually be more efficient?


nope, there is no free light.
basically led have the vertical advantage vertical as horizontal as no light have to go through the reflector, where as HPS have this benefit only in a vertical setup.
you need more led lights in vertical, thats right, while as rocket said, its easy to do.


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## m4s73r (Apr 11, 2021)

IF your gonna run HPS then Vertical is the way to do it. And if your going to do LED vertical you wouldnt do it in a circular configuration. You would do as rows or as most of the commercial grows i have seen, they do then in racks.


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## Gemtree (Apr 11, 2021)

I always thought making a led triangle would be cool for vertical just mount the drivers separate. 3 240s would be like a 1k hps


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## Budzbuddha (Apr 11, 2021)

@Hot Diggity Sog me thinks needs to chime in ..... he fabbed up a vertical “ chamber “ of HLG Quantums- good stuff.


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## ttystikk (Apr 12, 2021)

Kids, kids, kids...

Vertical or flatlander style, it's all about PAR Watts per square foot and that doesn't change.

Therefore, you generally need 60-65% of the Watts for vertical LED as you do using HID lights. 

@m4s73r above was right that round vertical only makes sense for HID, because those lamps are omnidirectional. Since LED lights are directional, flat walls are much better. They fit in square rooms better and are much more accessible for working on plants, too.

Something a vertical setup can do that a flatlander approach can't is grow on both sides of a vertical panel. This means you've got double the canopy space! Yes, you'll need double the light. You're still way further ahead of the game with LED than HID.

The only kind of vertical I haven't done is stacked trays and they're only good if you're running a zillion babies Sea of Green style. Or lettuce.

Hope that clears things up a bit.


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## RomanFilipowicz (Oct 7, 2021)

Johiem said:


> The same. That is unless you diy'd up an led tube. Been considering this kind of setup, just don't know crap about drivers.


Great idea! Make sure the bulbs are enough warm.


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 7, 2021)

mastaautoflowerer said:


> use each side of a bulb(no reflector) was a large part of verts efficiency


Does not help that much....
The reflectors like AAW have a special 98% reflective high durable coating....


http://www.svetlosasa.cz/svetlosasa/upload/alanod-miro_silver_pd_final_d_e_11_14.pdf



The efficiency is only 1.7µmol per Watts.

You profit from HPS if you need the excess heat of it to infrared heat your growing space efficiently. If your climate without any additional heating cost is good, LEDs are far more efficient, no matter if vertical or not, because the reflectors dont reduce the efficiency of the bulbs significantly. Using them without a reflector maybe it's a gain of 3%.... so the HPS in vertical grow might improve from 1.7 to 1,75, thats negligle to what an improvement LED can offer.

Modern LED-modules (LM301H) with Redboost 660nm.... can easily reach 3.5 µmol per Watts (PPE). Thats DOUBLE the efficiency to get the same PAR light. Commercial LED lamps beat at least 2,7 PPE

So like I said, when your ambient/LST is already in good range... a good LED-system are always best and more efficient than any bulb can be! You have more flexibility arrangin LEDs for vert.


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## Rocket Soul (Oct 7, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Does not help that much....
> The reflectors like AAW have a special 98% reflective high durable coating....
> 
> 
> ...


For on point led vertical growing have a look at @captainmorgan s grows, he has some really good shots for ideas


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## Lockedin (Oct 9, 2021)

mastaautoflowerer said:


> I always thought being able to use each side of a bulb(no reflector) was a large part of verts efficiency. If one were to go to led this wouldnt be the case and twice the lights would be necessary. Would this actually be more efficient? Seems like this is a unique scenario where hid might be better.
> What are u guys thoughts on this?


Corn-cob style arrays - but I've only seen them in 5000k with Edison plugs.

I'm considering re-tooling my strip racks and making an aluminum frame into an octagonal column.
Drivers would go in the center of the column - 3-6 18" strips mounted vertically around the perimeter (or other as I cobble this together)
A circulation fan on top of the column will pull cool air through the bottom and out the top.

It's a bit down the road before I try this though - I'm in the last stages of getting my perpetual up and running (I hope)
2x4 veg tent feeding a 4x6-ish flower space.

edit link:





120 Watt LED Corn Bulb - Aries III Series - 16,760 Lumens - 5000K - E39 Large Mogul Base - Built-in 6KV Surge - Dimmable - DLC 5.1







www.ledlightexpert.com


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## medicaloutlaw (Oct 10, 2021)

How about a foldable LED light right down the center of two rows


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## Southernontariogrower (Nov 15, 2021)

4 x 4ft fixtures and one on top of one plant, could be 5x5x5 or bigger depending on lights and raise a few feet, wonder what weight it could pull? Had my fantasy thanks.


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## Lenin1917 (Nov 16, 2021)

Vertical growing with the hid bulbs and wall scrogs has always impressed the shit out of me, it’s such a neat workaround of floor space limitations. Half ass wonder if it be possible to diy a big led cylinder for a similar effect.


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## ttystikk (Nov 25, 2021)

Lenin1917 said:


> Vertical growing with the hid bulbs and wall scrogs has always impressed the shit out of me, it’s such a neat workaround of floor space limitations. Half ass wonder if it be possible to diy a big led cylinder for a similar effect.


Why try to cram a square peg into a round hole? Vertical trellis panels don't need to be round.


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## resinhead (Jan 7, 2022)

One panel in each corner of a 5x5 room.
One plant.
Panel on top too. 
Let’s see it.


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## resinhead (Jan 7, 2022)

You could rock a bare bulb or a triangle of boards in the middle and run 4 plants.


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## resinhead (Jan 7, 2022)

It’s a flawless plan! Here is the blueprint
You’re welcome


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## tuksu6000 (Jan 7, 2022)

Do it


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## ttystikk (Jan 11, 2022)

resinhead said:


> It’s a flawless plan! Here is the blueprintView attachment 5062184
> You’re welcome


In a 5x5?

Bro. It's 2022. It's okay to come out of the closet...


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## OneHitDone (Feb 7, 2022)

CheGueVapo said:


> Does not help that much....
> The reflectors like AAW have a special 98% reflective high durable coating....
> 
> 
> ...


Can you please define "par"
Do plants benefit from wavelengths outside of the "par" region?


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## Kind Sir (Feb 10, 2022)

I have an HLG Scorpion R Spec I’m trying to use for my first vertical grow, literally want the LED to be perpendicular with the ground to save space. 

I made a thread about it and some may have seen me asking how to do this. Any suggestions? Truly could use it, going from using a 4x4 bed to having limited space has been difficult!!


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## Milky Weed (Feb 10, 2022)

Kind Sir said:


> I have an HLG Scorpion R Spec I’m trying to use for my first vertical grow, literally want the LED to be perpendicular with the ground to save space.
> 
> I made a thread about it and some may have seen me asking how to do this. Any suggestions? Truly could use it, going from using a 4x4 bed to having limited space has been difficult!!


Maybe hang the light on a wall, and make a crowd of plants around it? Then throw a cage up in the shape of a C around the light and weave it through that. 

I dont vert grow so maybe its flawed.


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## Crow River (Jul 16, 2022)

I'm going to be doing a vertical ScrOG grow later this year, once my current "flatlander" ScrOG grows are finished. I'll line three walls of a small tent with mesh, and train a single plant to the screen.

I have various blurples, quantum boards and domestic ceiling/wall light fittings that I use, but these are not really suitable for a vertical grow as they're designed to hang horizontally. I could maybe use one as a top-up light from above. 

I've been looking into LED bulbs. Higher powered corn cob bulbs, but also foldable "garage lights", grow bulbs, and PAR30 commercial lighting bulbs. The corn bulbs can act as a straight replacement for MIH or HPS bulbs, suspended or floor mounted in the centre. Just change the colour temperature of the bulb when switching to flower. Foldable LED bulbs can work in a similar way, except the lighting angle can be changed and they are more directional. Smaller grow bulbs or PAR30 bulbs can be used conventionally suspense directly above when the plant is very young to save energy, or with angled/flexible light fittings at various stages as supplemental lighting.

I'm seeing this first vertical grow as an experiment, once I've dialled in a system that works I may use this technique as a mainstay.


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## ttystikk (Jul 19, 2022)

Crow River said:


> I'm going to be doing a vertical ScrOG grow later this year, once my current "flatlander" ScrOG grows are finished. I'll line three walls of a small tent with mesh, and train a single plant to the screen.
> 
> I have various blurples, quantum boards and domestic ceiling/wall light fittings that I use, but these are not really suitable for a vertical grow as they're designed to hang horizontally. I could maybe use one as a top-up light from above.
> 
> ...


Keep us posted!


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## Crow River (Jul 19, 2022)

ttystikk said:


> Keep us posted!


Will do! It's a while of yet, but once I get started I'll update here.


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## Crow River (Aug 21, 2022)

I’ve started germinating a seed for a single plant test grow. The strain is White Widow.

Space is a small tent. 50 x 50 x 100cm.
Lighting will be 2 x 54w LED corn bulbs - 6500k for veg, 3000k for flower. Supplemented with a 10w UV (395-400nm) LED tube light, and additional grow bulbs as required. Also will be using a Far Red (730nm) LED strip for a few minutes at the start of lights out once flip to 12/12 begins.
Final pot will be a 24 litre fabric planter.
ScrOG nets will be 3 x 50 x 60cm, so 150 x 60cm in total if laid end to end.

Grow medium for both will be compost, mixed with perlite and vermiculite. Nutrients will be Miracle Gro for veg, and tomato feed for flower. Plus occasional doses of liquid seaweed. Watering will be semi-automatic, using "Classic" Blumats, plus hand watering of nutrients as and when required.

I will do early veg and potting up for both plants in a separate space alongside a plant for another grow. I will be using the Gas Lantern Routine throughout veg. That is, a lighting regime with 12hr on, 5.5hr off, 1hr on, 5.5hr off. I’ll be topping, pruning and supercropping to get the plant nice and bushy. Then once ready the White Widow will move into Space 2 for late veg and she will be put in her final pot and trained to the screen.


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## Crow River (Sep 1, 2022)

I've started a journal of this grow, in case anyone is interested.

GLR ScrOG


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