# Gavita's are they really worth the price ??



## Thc247 (Oct 8, 2015)

sorry this may of been asked before but i really cant find anythin usefull i currently run 5 600 w hps in flower i have digital ballasts and the old type my extraction is fine my temps are fine i been thinking about gavitas for some time now i just want to know between a 600 hps and a 1000 gavita does the gavita run hotter than the hps or if so does the 600 gavitas run cooler than hps i like the idea of gavitas but just not sure i dont like the ballasts hanging in the tent if they generate heat


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## Carolina Dream'n (Oct 8, 2015)

A 1000w gavita is easily 3 times as hot as a 600w.


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## Dubstin (Oct 8, 2015)

Check out the yield lab double ended, ive seen a side by side that honestly made it look superior to the gavita and over a hundred bucks cheaper.


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## adower (Oct 9, 2015)

Thc247 said:


> sorry this may of been asked before but i really cant find anythin usefull i currently run 5 600 w hps in flower i have digital ballasts and the old type my extraction is fine my temps are fine i been thinking about gavitas for some time now i just want to know between a 600 hps and a 1000 gavita does the gavita run hotter than the hps or if so does the 600 gavitas run cooler than hps i like the idea of gavitas but just not sure i dont like the ballasts hanging in the tent if they generate heat


Gravitas run super hot on the 1k setting. You need at least 6k btu per 1000 watt to cool them. I would still get the gavita and run it on the 600 setting and see if you can cool it


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## Thc247 (Oct 9, 2015)

so is the gavitas hotter than the hps or about the same mate wouldnt it be better if i got the 1000 and ran em on 600 heats not a problem at minute its just the hotter it gets the louder my extractors get dont wanna spend that much if they going to make my space louder than it is now


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## Thc247 (Oct 9, 2015)

im going out to spend today lol wanna get summat that will give me a hard on lol thinkin gavitas but i wud need 5 all together also been looking at a system alien wilma or auto pot cant decide and all the grow shops wanna do is sell me stuff so everything they sell is the best when they dont know fuckall apart from how much it will cost me i cant remember who said they runnin an alien sytem but are the alien systems ok with soil cocoa and clay pebbles cum on guys help me get summat lol


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## justugh (Oct 9, 2015)

Thc247 said:


> sorry this may of been asked before but i really cant find anythin usefull i currently run 5 600 w hps in flower i have digital ballasts and the old type my extraction is fine my temps are fine i been thinking about gavitas for some time now i just want to know between a 600 hps and a 1000 gavita does the gavita run hotter than the hps or if so does the 600 gavitas run cooler than hps i like the idea of gavitas but just not sure i dont like the ballasts hanging in the tent if they generate heat


what makes them worth it is the fact they are double ended .....they were one of the first if not the first (first i heard of ) to go double ended

the rest of the market is getting caught up i seen new ballast on the market that do both single and double ended bulbs .........if u get one of those it is just down to hood type


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## Thc247 (Oct 9, 2015)

so there are cheaper alternatives with same output i always liked look of the parabolic reflectors but cant use double ended bulbs in them whats the best hood u reckon then ?


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## justugh (Oct 9, 2015)

Thc247 said:


> so there are cheaper alternatives with same output i always liked look of the parabolic reflectors but cant use double ended bulbs in them whats the best hood u reckon then ?


well the ballast 
http://www.solis-tek.com/digital-ballasts/matrix-1000-digital-ballast.html
that is the make the price u see is what they should sell it for ......u can find better deals just make sure it matches that info 

hood 
as DE are newis the number of reflectors are limited ........u always want to get a cooltube/air cooled hood 
something like this 
http://www.greners.com/i/grow-lights/hoods-reflectors/hoods-reflectors/acde-8-double-ended-air-cooled-reflector.html


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 9, 2015)

these are kicking Gavitas ass 

http://nanoluxtech.com/products/de-fixture-series/


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## mr sunshine (Oct 9, 2015)

Thc247 said:


> sorry this may of been asked before but i really cant find anythin usefull i currently run 5 600 w hps in flower i have digital ballasts and the old type my extraction is fine my temps are fine i been thinking about gavitas for some time now i just want to know between a 600 hps and a 1000 gavita does the gavita run hotter than the hps or if so does the 600 gavitas run cooler than hps i like the idea of gavitas but just not sure i dont like the ballasts hanging in the tent if they generate heat


Go with the nanolux they got more power the ballasts are mounted horizontally so you get more head room. Not to mention they cost less.


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## patrickkawi37 (Oct 9, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> these are kicking Gavitas ass
> 
> http://nanoluxtech.com/products/de-fixture-series/


I ran both side by side. I used the Philips green power bulb in the nanolux . Did better under the gavita and I found the nanolux was warmer , more hot spots . They are both bright but to the naked eye the gavita is quite a bit more bright than the nanolux . Idk the par reads but I wouldnt say it kicks the gavitas ass. The price is good though. Pretty sure you can get a nanolux de setup cheaper then you can a top of the line single ended setup


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## Thc247 (Oct 9, 2015)

nice one lads


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## dbkick (Oct 9, 2015)

Many many choices over gavita anymore,


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## Aeroknow (Oct 10, 2015)

I'm still buying phantom de setups when I need to. I grow in trays. These hoods are perfect for a 4'x6' area:

i am very happy with these setups. I also have a few of their fixtures that look like gavitas, but I don't like the more square footprint from them(5'x5') Again, I'm totally happy with the one above that I keep buying more and more of them, even though people are saying certain DE setups are "blowing away" other setups.
If nanolux is way better than gavita brand. And gavitas are way better than phantom, well: i would be the best indoor grower on this planet if I was to rock nanolux i guess 
What, are we supposed to be getting 4lbs per light now? Jesus lol


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## ttystikk (Oct 10, 2015)

Thc247 said:


> sorry this may of been asked before but i really cant find anythin usefull i currently run 5 600 w hps in flower i have digital ballasts and the old type my extraction is fine my temps are fine i been thinking about gavitas for some time now i just want to know between a 600 hps and a 1000 gavita does the gavita run hotter than the hps or if so does the 600 gavitas run cooler than hps i like the idea of gavitas but just not sure i dont like the ballasts hanging in the tent if they generate heat


Don't run any HID lighting under 100%; you'll prematurely age the bulb while getting less lumens per watt and a decade spectrum output.

I think DE lamps and CDM/CMH lights are the only HID lamps worth buying now. In five years everyone who can afford it will be running COB LED, so plan your purchase with that in mind.


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## Thc247 (Oct 10, 2015)

already seen sumthin mate but 1200 pound per light but it sounds the bollox im not risking 6000 on lights lmao


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## patrickkawi37 (Oct 11, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Don't run any HID lighting under 100%; you'll prematurely age the bulb while getting less lumens per watt and a decade spectrum output.
> 
> I think DE lamps and CDM/CMH lights are the only HID lamps worth buying now. In five years everyone who can afford it will be running COB LED, so plan your purchase with that in mind.


lol


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## ttystikk (Oct 11, 2015)

patrickkawi37 said:


> lol


In 2020, I expect wholesale weed to be selling for under $500 a pound, so cost saving measures will be front and center.

That means lots of mechanized, automated, labor saving and cost saving approaches will radically transform the current paradigm of simply miniaturizing outdoor farming techniques for use indoors.

Commercial growers will embrace COB LED because it will be cheaper, better and more efficient. How do I know this? Because it already IS cheaper, better and more efficient... and it's only getting more so.

So how's your 2020 vision coming along?


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## patrickkawi37 (Oct 11, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> In 2020, I expect wholesale weed to be selling for under $500 a pound, so cost saving measures will be front and center.
> 
> That means lots of mechanized, automated, labor saving and cost saving approaches will radically transform the current paradigm of simply miniaturizing outdoor farming techniques for use indoors.
> 
> ...


I agree that you will be able to get pounds for 500 bucks in 5 years ... But you won't be getting my weed for that. I don't grow garbage . It would be impossible to turn a profit at that price. So this is where you say yes but if you growing with leds your run cost is lower.. So what your saying is people are going to drop 100k+ for lighting setups ... Where they are going to profit a couple thousand dollars a batch... And it's going to take them 20 years to get there investment back. What you are saying makes sense to you.. But it's not reality . You cannot compare a successful small tent grow and think that it's going to be as successful on a large scale. Growers are getting upwards of 5 pounds per thousand watt lamp. I got 3.25 per light my last run and I am a noob... 

Electricity costs are not strictly lighting ..the bigger the room, more fans more dehus more everything your going to need.. Lights are not where the power is being used.. So saving a little on light and compromising your yield..... Per fixture and sqft.. Is a god damn joke. And I know I can argue this til I'm blue in the face with you. But your not a commercial grower .. And if you ever are.. Your opinion on this is going to change.. Or it will be the beginning of one hell of a failure for you. Find me a fixture that you can pull over 3 pounds from 1 fixture.. Out of a 5x5 space . Hps is the ONLY way to go. And double ended is dope and all... But I'm doing just as good under my single ended fixtures . If you don't have 10 foot + roof space I think gavitas do more harm than good .


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## a mongo frog (Oct 11, 2015)

How can you guys say that when prices are the highest they been in 2 years right now.


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## ttystikk (Oct 11, 2015)

patrickkawi37 said:


> I agree that you will be able to get pounds for 500 bucks in 5 years ... But you won't be getting my weed for that. I don't grow garbage . It would be impossible to turn a profit at that price. So this is where you say yes but if you growing with leds your run cost is lower.. So what your saying is people are going to drop 100k+ for lighting setups ... Where they are going to profit a couple thousand dollars a batch... And it's going to take them 20 years to get there investment back. What you are saying makes sense to you.. But it's not reality . You cannot compare a successful small tent grow and think that it's going to be as successful on a large scale. Growers are getting upwards of 5 pounds per thousand watt lamp. I got 3.25 per light my last run and I am a noob...
> 
> Electricity costs are not strictly lighting ..the bigger the room, more fans more dehus more everything your going to need.. Lights are not where the power is being used.. So saving a little on light and compromising your yield..... Per fixture and sqft.. Is a god damn joke. And I know I can argue this til I'm blue in the face with you. But your not a commercial grower .. And if you ever are.. Your opinion on this is going to change.. Or it will be the beginning of one hell of a failure for you. Find me a fixture that you can pull over 3 pounds from 1 fixture.. Out of a 5x5 space . Hps is the ONLY way to go. And double ended is dope and all... But I'm doing just as good under my single ended fixtures . If you don't have 10 foot + roof space I think gavitas do more harm than good .


You've made many assumptions I believe are incorrect here, so our conclusions differ.

Guess we'll find out who's right in five years! Cheers, and may we both pop the corks on many New Year's champagne bottles to come!


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## ttystikk (Oct 11, 2015)

a mongo frog said:


> How can you guys say that when prices are the highest they been in 2 years right now.


The long term trend is already downward, and as more legal capacity comes on line, there will be more and more product. The market is not infinite, eventually it will be satisfied and prices will fall to approach the cost of production... which then drives cost reductions in production. The first way this happens is consolidation, when high cost producers get bought out or bankrupted.

Remember how the first personal computers were not very powerful and were very expensive? Market forces driving better performance for ever lower cost eventually made them cheap, powerful- and ubiquitous.

Cannabis production is absolutely no different. Those who can grow it better for less cost than the competition will have more profits in their pockets and will always be more competitive. This goes for volume producers and boutique production alike.

I'm not worried about whether it's going to happen, because it already is happening. I'm here to develop and provide the techniques and technology to reduce those costs- and maybe make a living doing it.


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## patrickkawi37 (Oct 11, 2015)

a mongo frog said:


> How can you guys say that when prices are the highest they been in 2 years right now.


you are right. 3k for some perfect og is happening, even at dispensaries right now. But when the legalization thing happens theres going to be boo boo pounds everywhere . I think tickets for indoor quality will stay the same . 22-3k


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## a mongo frog (Oct 11, 2015)

patrickkawi37 said:


> you are right. 3k for some perfect og is happening, even at dispensaries right now. But when the legalization thing happens theres going to be boo boo pounds everywhere . I think tickets for indoor quality will stay the same . 22-3k


Did everyone switch to the glue or some shit? Ive haven't seen anything like this in some time.


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## patrickkawi37 (Oct 11, 2015)

a mongo frog said:


> Did everyone switch to the glue or some shit? Ive haven't seen anything like this in some time.


It's weird it's been like this for a couple months now. Top shelf Ogs are hard to find. From what I've heard that glue is a finicky fucker like the cookies.


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## Aeroknow (Oct 11, 2015)

a mongo frog said:


> Did everyone switch to the glue or some shit? Ive haven't seen anything like this in some time.


Reminds me of blackberrykush, bluedream before that, but X's 10. I just know my days with the glue are numbered but the clubs that are getting my glue, say it's better then the others soooo


patrickkawi37 said:


> It's weird it's been like this for a couple months now. Top shelf Ogs are hard to find. From what I've heard that glue is a finicky fucker like the cookies.


Nah, it's a very easy to grow strain IMO


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## a mongo frog (Oct 11, 2015)

Not to mention this is how everyones thinking around these parts!!!!!!!


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## Aeroknow (Oct 11, 2015)

a mongo frog said:


> Not to mention this is how everyones thinking around these parts!!!!!!!View attachment 3519488


Shit dude, with ab266 and the other two being signed into law, I wouldn't want to start up a dispensary until the future is a little bit clearer.
Pretty soon we'll have to off our shit through a distributor? Clubs won't even be able to grow their own? Fucking Lame Man!
It's looking more and more like it's going to be back to the black market for most of us!


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## a mongo frog (Oct 11, 2015)

Aeroknow said:


> Shit dude, with ab266 and the other two being signed into law, I wouldn't want to start up a dispensary until the future is a little bit clearer.
> Pretty soon we'll have to off our shit through a distributor? Clubs won't even be able to grow their own? It's looking allot more like it's going to be back to the black market for most!


I was joking. I don't see how anything is going to change. I believe California is setting this up for big corp. to come in and grow shit cannabis. Aint going to change a thing. Have you seen the legal smoke in washington state? You'd be shocked. California patients rant fucking around when it comes to medicine. Those are my thoughts.


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## Aeroknow (Oct 11, 2015)

a mongo frog said:


> I was joking. I don't see how anything is going to change. I believe California is setting this up for big corp. to come in and grow shit cannabis. Aint going to change a thing. Have you seen the legal smoke in washington state? You'd be shocked. California patients rant fucking around when it comes to medicine. Those are my thoughts.


I don't know man.
The liscensing shit is the main thing that worries me. You WILL need to be liscensed to sell your legal medicine(only to a distributor though). The fucked up counties like the one I live in now, can still deny that liscense. I could go on and on with the bullshit I'm worried about.
The best grower I know from here in NorCal, is now one of the biggest liscensed growers in Wash. The dude grows fire. Not doubting that most of the other big dogs are probably growing boo-boo though.
I guess only time will tell all.


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## MistaRasta (Oct 12, 2015)

..500 a pound..


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## a mongo frog (Oct 12, 2015)

MistaRasta said:


> ..500 a pound..


Think they were joking.


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## oilfield bud (Oct 12, 2015)

patrickkawi37 said:


> I agree that you will be able to get pounds for 500 bucks in 5 years ... But you won't be getting my weed for that. I don't grow garbage . It would be impossible to turn a profit at that price. So this is where you say yes but if you growing with leds your run cost is lower.. So what your saying is people are going to drop 100k+ for lighting setups ... Where they are going to profit a couple thousand dollars a batch... And it's going to take them 20 years to get there investment back. What you are saying makes sense to you.. But it's not reality . You cannot compare a successful small tent grow and think that it's going to be as successful on a large scale. Growers are getting upwards of 5 pounds per thousand watt lamp. I got 3.25 per light my last run and I am a noob...
> 
> Electricity costs are not strictly lighting ..the bigger the room, more fans more dehus more everything your going to need.. Lights are not where the power is being used.. So saving a little on light and compromising your yield..... Per fixture and sqft.. Is a god damn joke. And I know I can argue this til I'm blue in the face with you. But your not a commercial grower .. And if you ever are.. Your opinion on this is going to change.. Or it will be the beginning of one hell of a failure for you. Find me a fixture that you can pull over 3 pounds from 1 fixture.. Out of a 5x5 space . Hps is the ONLY way to go. And double ended is dope and all... But I'm doing just as good under my single ended fixtures . If you don't have 10 foot + roof space I think gavitas do more harm than good .



Who the fuck is getting 5 lbs per 1000w light. I mean I understand if you vegg forever youll get more but 5 lbs for a 1000w light. Comon bro...


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## a mongo frog (Oct 12, 2015)

oilfield bud said:


> Who the fuck is getting 5 lbs per 1000w light. I mean I understand if you vegg forever youll get more but 5 lbs for a 1000w light. Comon bro...


No one is bro. Keep farming the top shelf and you'll be more then fine. Quantity is great , but once you start flirting with quantity only your fucked. You'll get both if all you care about is healthy plants and a good clean run.


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## oilfield bud (Oct 12, 2015)

Thats what I figured man, im extremely proud of my product. I resurch resurch resurch and resurch some more bc I enjoy learning about how to make the best product posible. I gave some dumbass cover story about where my bud came from and every1 said what they got from me...from my first grow I might add. Was way better then the $20 a gram bud thats going around here. But my bud was definitely made with love lol. I watched each and every girl like a hawk and it came out AMAZING. but from all the reading I've done I had to call bullshit on 5 lbs


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## MrStickyScissors (Oct 12, 2015)

lets see them legalize coke. Drop the price of my weed and ill flip that


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## MrStickyScissors (Oct 12, 2015)

and there is beef for 3 bucks a pound then you got coby beef for like 200 a pound or some shit. My weed is coby weed


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## patrickkawi37 (Oct 12, 2015)

oilfield bud said:


> Who the fuck is getting 5 lbs per 1000w light. I mean I understand if you vegg forever youll get more but 5 lbs for a 1000w light. Comon bro...


IG theethoscollective. They have multiple growers in Colorado getting between 3.5 and 5 per light every time. I pulled 30.5 ps off of 9k watts and I am not a very good grower.. It is very doable and people are doing it .


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## oilfield bud (Oct 12, 2015)

Buuuuuullllllssssshhhhiiiiiittttt


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## since1991 (Oct 12, 2015)

Alot of people are going to be in for.a big suprise in about 5 years . You all crack me up. Iam telling all of you to start saving your bucks now and find other ways. Oregon just made 11 million in rec sales first week. Cmon. This little ride is going bye bye for 99% of us real soon. And your delusional if you dont think the big billion dollar corps arent frothing at the mouth and cant grow "top shelf artisan quAlity buds". Lol. There ready. There putting forth lobbyists as we speak. The days of indoor under expensive equipment are drawing to an end. The future is outdoor and greenhouses. And BIG ONES. 500$ a lb? Try 250$. Very cheap and heavily regulated. Ad it will be easy to purchase. Its coming alot faster than you all realize. The hobby hydroponic industry will be just about finished. Larry Brooke....the president and former ceo of General Hydroponics saw it very clearly recently. He was a very early pioneer in this industry. Built GH from his garage in the late 70's. Anyways he just sold out to Scotts/Miracle Gro in the high millions. And literally flew off into the sunset on a private jet with his family. Smart man. We need to be smart too!!!


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## a mongo frog (Oct 12, 2015)

since1991 said:


> Alot of people are going to be in for.a big suprise in about 5 years . You all crack me up. Iam telling all of you to start saving your bucks now and find other ways. Oregon just made 11 million in rec sales first week. Cmon. This little ride is going bye bye for 99% of us real soon. And your delusional if you dont think the big billion dollar corps arent frothing at the mouth and cant grow "top shelf artisan quAlity buds". Lol. There ready. There putting forth lobbyists as we speak. The days of indoor under expensive equipment are drawing to an end. The future is outdoor and greenhouses. And BIG ONES. 500$ a lb? Try 250$. Very cheap and heavily regulated. Ad it will be easy to purchase. Its coming alot faster than you all realize. The hobby hydroponic industry will be just about finished. Larry Brooke....the president and former ceo of General Hydroponics saw it very clearly recently. He was a very early pioneer in this industry. Built GH from his garage in the late 70's. Anyways he just sold out to Scotts/Miracle Gro in the high millions. And literally flew off into the sunset on a private jet with his family. Smart man. We need to be smart too!!!


Can you show us your 250.00 per unit bud pics?


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## since1991 (Oct 12, 2015)

Wow. Youre really stuck there. Did you read my post?


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## a mongo frog (Oct 12, 2015)

since1991 said:


> Wow. Youre really stuck there. Did you read my post?


Im just stuck bro. Sorry about that. Maybe i should of read your sad worried post a little better.


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## since1991 (Oct 12, 2015)

Ok cool man. The only thing iam not sure of is when legalization on a national level is going to happen. You think this little thing of ours is going to last forever? Theres too much money on the line. Billions. There will be very good pot out there. It will be extremely cheap to purchase, easy to obtain. And you , i and everyone else on this forum will not be the ones making money on it. That i can guarantee you. At best a few plants in the yard for personal. It will be so cheap it will not be worth it. Especially under lights. And its going to happen alot sooner than you think. Everyday it multiplies. Full on legalization will be heavily debated maybe not in this upcoming election but the next one for sure. Just prepare is all iam saying. Branch out. Make as much cash as yoh can and do something with it.


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## MrStickyScissors (Oct 12, 2015)

there will be good outdoor sure and lots of it but still they will have to process it in a machine to trim it. I don't see any outdoor beating the quality of my indoor. and if they run green house they will most likly need some lighting. duhumidifiers, climate controls. its not going to be cheap. mean while back at the lab. mrstickyscissors has some home grown purp that is purple thru the middle and frostier than frosty. hand trimmed to perfection?


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## TheChemist77 (Oct 12, 2015)

1k gavita de, beat out watt per watt by a 315 watt ceramic discharge lamp..high times august issue, best indoor lighting.. im currently running tests. so far the 315watt cmh have produced over a gpw, tighter,more crystalized buds than ive ever had under hps..
the cmh bulbs run super cool, no cool tube needed, open hoods,great par, and coverage 2ft from bulb.. i was running 2 600 watt hids's, 1 600 mh, 1 600 hps or 2 600 hps's in cool tubes with 6 inch inline exaughsting.since switching to the 315 watt cmh bulbs my exaughst fan has not kicked on yet and no more 6 inch inline either...my room has better temp than ever with just an intake and 2 oscilating fans, 1 at plant height, 1 at reflector height.. i had my exaughst on a temp control to kick on if temps jump over 75f, it never kicked on,,,so i now have it on a timer to exaughst room air 3 times a day for 15 minutes each time..my electric bill is less than half what it was, and product is better than ever..

please look at the high times august issue, on best indoor grow lamps.. i was so impressesd,,yet very scepticle.. ive used hps/mh for 20 + years...figured id try the 315 watt cdl by boulder lamps,, im very happy with them, im curently running a 3 run test pinning them against a 1k hps,,only difference is lighting...please check it out before buying gavita!!!

https://www.rollitup.org/t/chemist77-315-watt-cdl-grow.880895/page-1


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## since1991 (Oct 12, 2015)

Grower ego...i got one too. Lol. I think my shit is the fu##### shit. Thats not going to mean shit when the whip comes down bro. Just start saving your cash is my advice. Dont live like this is here forever. I lived in Lake County and Hopland ....several years. Alot of people in that area living with alot of regret. Trust me


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## a mongo frog (Oct 12, 2015)

since1991 said:


> Ok cool man. The only thing iam not sure of is when legalization on a national level is going to happen. You think this little thing of ours is going to last forever? Theres too much money on the line. Billions. There will be very good pot out there. It will be extremely cheap to purchase, easy to obtain. And you , i and everyone else on this forum will not be the ones making money on it. That i can guarantee you. At best a few plants in the yard for personal. It will be so cheap it will not be worth it. Especially under lights. And its going to happen alot sooner than you think. Everyday it multiplies. Full on legalization will be heavily debated maybe not in this upcoming election but the next one for sure. Just prepare is all iam saying. Branch out. Make as much cash as yoh can and do something with it.


Im not making money on nothing. I give my medicine away to patients. Legal smoke is no where near what California and now Michigan are producing. And the patients are not stupid bro. The patients in these 2 states are experts at judging medicine.


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## since1991 (Oct 12, 2015)

Sorry way off topic. I will shut up. You all are rite. Iam wrong. Full of shit. I will never do it again. Forgive me lord. I dont have a flippin clue what iam talking about.


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## a mongo frog (Oct 12, 2015)

since1991 said:


> Sorry way off topic. I will shut up. You all are rite. Iam wrong. Full of shit. I will never do it again. Forgive me lord. I dont have a flippin clue what iam talking about.


Don't sweat it bro. You seem like a real cool guy.


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## since1991 (Oct 12, 2015)

What does patients and.medical marijuana got to do with anything? Thats all just a dog and pony show and we all know it. A stepping stone at best. Sure iam a caregiver and i.have patients. Only so i hope to not go to jail doing what ive been doing for 20+ years.


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## oilfield bud (Oct 12, 2015)

Im not gonna lie im starting to see the $$$ potential down south


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## Aeroknow (Oct 12, 2015)

I'm not so optimistic about the future either. It was fun while it lasted! Only got popped once. It was a good run. A couple more years would still be nice though


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## a mongo frog (Oct 12, 2015)

since1991 said:


> What does patients and.medical marijuana got to do with anything? Thats all just a dog and pony show and we all know it. A stepping stone at best. Sure iam a caregiver and i.have patients. Only so i hope to not go to jail doing what ive been doing for 20+ years.


You really don't know do you?


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## since1991 (Oct 12, 2015)

Yeah iam afraid i do know. When everything goes recreational whats the point of even having "patients", "caregivers" and medical mj "laws"???? Pretty pointless. But it sure was a stepping stone to get to where we are heading. If you think there is a distinct line between recreational and medical grades of cannabis then yes your rite i really dont know. Lol


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## a mongo frog (Oct 12, 2015)

since1991 said:


> Yeah iam afraid i do know. When everything goes recreational whats the point of even having "patients", "caregivers" and medical mj "laws"???? Pretty pointless. But it sure was a stepping stone to get to where we are heading.


Really whats the point? So you don't have any Aids patients counting on you? You don't have a truck driver who rolled her truck on a long haul and is so fucked up that what ever she does she's in pain? My list could go on, but you don't even know what fucking day it is. You really think they'd buy rec weed. Do you have to step your game up?


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## abe supercro (Oct 12, 2015)

It's not his fault our market is going to shit by being flooded with product.


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## abe supercro (Oct 12, 2015)

oilfield bud said:


> Im not gonna lie im starting to see the - - - potential down south


Well winters sure are more appealing down south.


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## fandango (Oct 12, 2015)

Thc247 said:


> sorry this may of been asked before but i really cant find anythin usefull i currently run 5 600 w hps in flower i have digital ballasts and the old type my extraction is fine my temps are fine i been thinking about gavitas for some time now i just want to know between a 600 hps and a 1000 gavita does the gavita run hotter than the hps or if so does the 600 gavitas run cooler than hps i like the idea of gavitas but just not sure i dont like the ballasts hanging in the tent if they generate heat


the new deal is the double ended light...gavitas not so much...a/c cost is sky high


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## ttystikk (Oct 12, 2015)

fandango said:


> the new deal is the double ended light...gavitas not so much...a/c cost is sky high


This is already obsolete... in large part because of AC cost.


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## MrStickyScissors (Oct 12, 2015)

so why switch to DE when you can keep SE air cooled and get 1.5 pounds per 4x4 and way less ac costs?


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## ttystikk (Oct 12, 2015)

since1991 said:


> And you , i and everyone else on this forum will not be the ones making money on it. That i can guarantee you.


Speak for yourself.


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## ttystikk (Oct 12, 2015)

MrStickyScissors said:


> so why switch to DE when you can keep SE air cooled and get 1.5 pounds per 4x4 and way less ac costs?


Because right now the extra half pound pays the power bill.


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 12, 2015)

prices go down when market is flooded sept to oct no other way around it as dec comes people are screaming for weed as there hardly fuck all around same thing applies in spring 

cmh hid WTF ever coblins are shit compared to the SUN nothng man made comes close to the energy 
Whats happening is this NO MATTER WHAT WE BREED WE ARE MADE OF GREED 
only people that are going to hang them selfs is your selfs 
meaning in colorado for instance your allowed to grow 10 plants you will grow 30 how many raids are taking place i just finished reading 10,000 plant grown on government land WTF peeps 
its shit like this abuse of the system just like in canada where med patients growing there weed got greedy started growing more selling it ilegally and pow shit hit the fan 
and shit storm that followed .
just because they made it legal do not think they can not make it ilegal
its all really still being monitored studied and what ever 
But keep fucking up and who knows in 5 years it may just be that ilegal to grow weed cause of cock suckers being greedy and not playing by the RULES


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## MrStickyScissors (Oct 12, 2015)

I allmost like the Idea of running 4 raptor hoods with hortilux bulbs air cooled and just running my central air. I can pull 5 pounds off that and spend wayy less on electrical


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## MrStickyScissors (Oct 12, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Because right now the extra half pound pays the power bill.


not really. an extra 1,000 bucks a light. its going to just pay the electrical and maybe a little left over.


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 12, 2015)

YUP it is being seen that people can;t fight the urge to play by the rules lol and then people will be screaming when big corp come in and take it all over cause of your stupidity greed ..
but hey blame big corp typical ..
least they will play by the book easier or government to monitor there operations etc its a win win all way around 
and like that little kid in the park that couldn;t play nice sitting in the corner now with no friends lol


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## MrStickyScissors (Oct 12, 2015)

thats an extra pound and a half a room in my house. so 3 pounds, so 6,000 bucks extra. and if I have to run my central air and mini splits that are 1500 watts a piece the ac will run me about 700 a month alone then the 6,000 watts will be another 700 pluse fans and exhausts so like 1500 a month thats like 4k a crop. kinda seems like a head ache for a extra 2 k


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## ttystikk (Oct 12, 2015)

MrStickyScissors said:


> not really. an extra 1,000 bucks a light. its going to just pay the electrical and maybe a little left over.


Not sure where you're getting your numbers but it isn't going to cost any fuckin' grand a light to power and cool Gavita DE.


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## ttystikk (Oct 12, 2015)

MrStickyScissors said:


> thats an extra pound and a half a room in my house. so 3 pounds, so 6,000 bucks extra. and if I have to run my central air and mini splits that are 1500 watts a piece the ac will run me about 700 a month alone then the 6,000 watts will be another 700 pluse fans and exhausts so like 1500 a month thats like 4k a crop. kinda seems like a head ache for a extra 2 k


But you're making money. In a commercial setting, that's money in the bank.


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## MrStickyScissors (Oct 12, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Not sure where you're getting your numbers but it isn't going to cost any fuckin' grand a light to power and cool Gavita DE.


no, I mean thats what I would profit per gavita over my SE


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## MrStickyScissors (Oct 12, 2015)

it would cost me it would cost me around 7 to 800 to cool the gavitas alone. at what everyone is recommending for the mini splits. unless Im calculating wrong and the mini split wont be running all day. my central heat and air in the summer is running all day and my bill is 350 a month


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## ttystikk (Oct 12, 2015)

MrStickyScissors said:


> no, I mean thats what I would profit per gavita over my SE


Okay, I misunderstood, sorry. But yeah- that extra grand is indeed why they do it, power bill be damned.


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## ttystikk (Oct 12, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> prices go down when market is flooded sept to oct no other way around it as dec comes people are screaming for weed as there hardly fuck all around same thing applies in spring
> 
> cmh hid WTF ever coblins are shit compared to the SUN nothng man made comes close to the energy
> Whats happening is this NO MATTER WHAT WE BREED WE ARE MADE OF GREED
> ...


Whoa dude- put down the crack pipe and back away long enough for a nap or something... there's so much wrong with this I'm just going to ask you to take a deep breath and try again. Geez.


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## Aeroknow (Oct 12, 2015)

MrStickyScissors said:


> it would cost me it would cost me around 7 to 800 to cool the gavitas alone. at what everyone is recommending for the mini splits. unless Im calculating wrong and the mini split wont be running all day. my central heat and air in the summer is running all day and my bill is 350 a month


I'm in Norcal also dude. 34 cents a kwh. Bullshit hah!
See, this is what I did when I replaced all my air-cooled single endeds(still have some):
Each air-cooled light covered a 4'x4' area(trays). 4000 btu of ac per light.
I'm rockin those DE's i keep showing over 4'x6' areas now. 6000 btu of ac per fixture(at 1150 watts)
So, almost 1/3 less lighting, but the same amount of AC as before.
Just about the same power costs(less actually) but more yield


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 12, 2015)

http://kdvr.com/2015/10/08/32-arrested-in-6-recent-illegal-marijuana-grow-raids-in-colorado/


DENVER -- 20,000 marijuana plants, 700 pounds of dried weed and more than 30 guns, all found right out in the open.

“You see a group of people who are actually actively engaged, farming the marijuana. So that means there are tents, cookhouses. There are irrigation systems in place. There’s a lot of pesticides,” said United States Attorney for the District of Colorado John Walsh.

The busts started Aug. 19 and spanned the state of Colorado as listed below. Six of them took place through Thursday.

*Pike National Forest, Aug. 19 in the Green Mountain Area in Jefferson County. Investigation is ongoing.*
Law Enforcement Officers from the U.S. Forest Service, Department of Homeland Security Investigations (HSI), Jefferson County Sheriff’s Office and the Colorado National Guard Joint Counter Drug Task Force joined together to complete an eradication of an illegal marijuana grow site in the Pike National Forest. The eradication team collected more than 3,900 plants and over 3,000 pounds of irrigation pipe, pesticides, flammable liquids, camping gear and trash.


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 12, 2015)

Yup all good in colorada lol


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## patrickkawi37 (Oct 12, 2015)

oilfield bud said:


> Buuuuuullllllssssshhhhiiiiiittttt


I appreciate the compliment .


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## TheChemist77 (Oct 13, 2015)

cops are so full of shit,, they can pull a plant in veg,,,no buds on it and say it has a street value of 3 grand..lol...pull a plant out the ground, root ball n dirt, weigh it n say this is a 10 pound plant..lol.. its a fuggin joke.. i went legal simply because i enjoy growing, and didnt want my family endangered.. but growing illegally is were the money is at!!! legally there is little to no profit,, just a sence of well being giving people with REAL pain a better life..im not helping people with acid reflux,, my medicine has to be great quality as most my patients are terminal.. it becomes sad, you build relationships with these people,, not like a dr. just prescribing,, you sit and talk,listen, and you lose a part of yourself with each passing.. i love helping,, but selling weed illegally was much easier, and way more profitable. loss becomes a big part of a care givers life,, if you have a soul, if you truly care about others,,being a care giver is NOT AN EASY JOB!!


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## TheChemist77 (Oct 13, 2015)

at times, doing what you love, GROWING. becomes a curse, i think about giving up what i love simply because of the stress,, i never thought growing legally would have caused more stress than illegally.. i swear with each funeral i attend,,i get closer to quitting this truly painfull journey..


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## Thc247 (Oct 13, 2015)

nice one all for contributing i was going to buy gavitas but from every comment im still stuck i currently have 5 600 w hps lights open bulbs running and heat is not a prob temp is dialled in at what i want i have super extraction and my temps are 25 -28 so im not in need of help cooling my setup i was just hoping that my new lights could or would run a bit cooler so i dont have to have air conditioner and extraction working so hard what ballasts and bulbs do u all have and whats your results gram per wat bassis im stuck in the stone ages thou tbh the old sunmaster ballasts ive always had more than average results or to put it better ive always out performed my expectations so never really thought about changing before also i got like 40-50 of these ballasts i got a couple of digital ballasts that do run cooler than my old type so after my friiends talking about how good gavitas are i decided i should upgrade my lighting


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## patrickkawi37 (Oct 13, 2015)

Thc247 said:


> nice one all for contributing i was going to buy gavitas but from every comment im still stuck i currently have 5 600 w hps lights open bulbs running and heat is not a prob temp is dialled in at what i want i have super extraction and my temps are 25 -28 so im not in need of help cooling my setup i was just hoping that my new lights could or would run a bit cooler so i dont have to have air conditioner and extraction working so hard what ballasts and bulbs do u all have and whats your results gram per wat bassis im stuck in the stone ages thou tbh the old sunmaster ballasts ive always had more than average results or to put it better ive always out performed my expectations so never really thought about changing before also i got like 40-50 of these ballasts i got a couple of digital ballasts that do run cooler than my old type so after my friiends talking about how good gavitas are i decided i should upgrade my lighting


If you are pulling a gram per watt and your room and conditions are absolutely perfect...and you have a 10 feet or higher roof.. Than absolutely switching to gavitas will better your yield. If you say no to any of those factors I would work on that instead of your lighting setups .


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## patrickkawi37 (Oct 13, 2015)

Thc247 said:


> nice one all for contributing i was going to buy gavitas but from every comment im still stuck i currently have 5 600 w hps lights open bulbs running and heat is not a prob temp is dialled in at what i want i have super extraction and my temps are 25 -28 so im not in need of help cooling my setup i was just hoping that my new lights could or would run a bit cooler so i dont have to have air conditioner and extraction working so hard what ballasts and bulbs do u all have and whats your results gram per wat bassis im stuck in the stone ages thou tbh the old sunmaster ballasts ive always had more than average results or to put it better ive always out performed my expectations so never really thought about changing before also i got like 40-50 of these ballasts i got a couple of digital ballasts that do run cooler than my old type so after my friiends talking about how good gavitas are i decided i should upgrade my lighting


Also gavita has the DE 600/750 ballasts. They run pretty warm but I have. 4 lighter with 2 1k single ended and 2 600/750 de gavitas and the yield looks like it's going to be the same .


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## Thc247 (Oct 13, 2015)

18-20 oz off 600 watt i get at moment not always but 15 litre pots 3-4 week veg with net topped i have 4 under each light and get min 4 oz per plant i have 2m height to start as in a tent so gavitas prob not best then if i got 2m before i even add pot and plant il have to work out if thats a gram per watt i get....


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## patrickkawi37 (Oct 13, 2015)

Thc247 said:


> 18-20 oz off 600 watt i get at moment not always but 15 litre pots 3-4 week veg with net topped i have 4 under each light and get min 4 oz per plant i have 2m height to start as in a tent so gavitas prob not best then if i got 2m before i even add pot and plant il have to work out if thats a gram per watt i get....


Yeah no gavitas with 2m roof. Sounds like your doing well


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## TheChemist77 (Oct 13, 2015)

Thc247 said:


> 18-20 oz off 600 watt i get at moment not always but 15 litre pots 3-4 week veg with net topped i have 4 under each light and get min 4 oz per plant i have 2m height to start as in a tent so gavitas prob not best then if i got 2m before i even add pot and plant il have to work out if thats a gram per watt i get....


im telling you, instead of gavitas look into ceramic lamps.. i have the 315 watt cdl from boulderlamp.com, 3 315 watt cdl's at 945 watts will produce better than 2 600 watt hps or way better than a 1k gavita or even a gavita de, less heat, open hoods, and will easily cover a 6ft area.. 2 315 watt cdls at a total of 630 watts easily produce 800 grams, and could get up to 1.000 grams if you know what your doing.... just be sure to veg a little longer as plants dont stretch nearly as much as plants under hps or mh bulbs..pluss 1 bulb lasts 20,000 hours, no bulb changes any more!!! i just did my first run under 2 315 watt ceramic lamps yielded 800 grams thats 1.26gpw had i vegged longer id had easily pulled 1.5-1.75gpw,, i am very happy with them, my next run will be under 3 315 watt ceramic lamps.. please check out my journal, im doing a 3 run comparison with cmh lamps, only diference is the lighting..

https://www.rollitup.org/t/chemist77-315-watt-cdl-grow.880895/page-1


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## MrStickyScissors (Oct 13, 2015)

I have 6, 600s hps going right now I'm aiming for 5 pounds. 27 plants in 7 gallon pots. heres a pic of some of the table couldnt fit the hole table in the pic.. thats 31 days into flower. do you think i could hit 5? or do you think 4?


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## MrStickyScissors (Oct 13, 2015)

theres about another 5x4 space that isnt in the pic same size buds


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## adower (Oct 14, 2015)

MrStickyScissors said:


> I have 6, 600s hps going right now I'm aiming for 5 pounds. 27 plants in 7 gallon pots. heres a pic of some of the table couldnt fit the hole table in the pic.. thats 31 days into flower. do you think i could hit 5? or do you think 4?View attachment 3520960


There is people hitting 1.5 lb per 600watt. So 6 lb is definitely do able with the lights you have.


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## skyman5000 (Aug 23, 2016)

User " Since 1991" is correct. Prices will continue to fall very hard and fast over the next 5 years. By 2020 Indoor growers in Legal States like Cali and Wash will be out or on very small margins, unless you are a large commercial grow with electrical cost at 3 cents a Kw. Pounds will probably be $1,000 or less but only for the best indoor. I could also see $500 a pound like he suggested but for outdoor. Indoor might take a few more years for that. IMO

As far as DE lights I use Phantom " Made in America" great lights love them. They do yield more WAY more light, also better hard buds, more like the sun. They also do make more heat. A/C cost are crazy high compared to older single HPS. I turn mine down now to 750 to keep things cool. I have been in the grow game since 2005. I have seen prices in Cali get cut in half or more. Back when I started there was no BHO only brick hash. Outdoor was 3k to 4k all day. Top indoor was 4k to 5,00k for the best frosty. Bad crap indoor was easy to sell for 3k all day. No you can not even sell outdoor for more then 1700 and indoor must be perfect. BHO is all over and it is pure and clear. This will only increase. Prices will probably be cut in half again within the next 2 years after legalization in cali. Colorado is already falling very hard and no end in sight yet. 

Hobby hydro under $400 grow lights and $500 or $2,000 electric bills will be a thing of the past as will the small home indoor grower. Unless it is in the back yard with a few personal plants. We can all talk about they day when...LOL.....anyway good luck everyone and good growing.


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## skyman5000 (Aug 23, 2016)

The yield on my Phantom DE 1k HPS is about 2 pounds per 5x5 or 5x6 depending on a few things. with regular lights the best I ever did was 1.75 with a 5x5. So it is at least a 20% increase. But heat seems like double. Must keep room cool and lights no closer then 30 inches. I try for 35 inches with fans.


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## since1991 (Aug 23, 2016)

Aeroknow said:


> I'm in Norcal also dude. 34 cents a kwh. Bullshit hah!
> See, this is what I did when I replaced all my air-cooled single endeds(still have some):
> Each air-cooled light covered a 4'x4' area(trays). 4000 btu of ac per light.
> I'm rockin those DE's i keep showing over 4'x6' areas now. 6000 btu of ac per fixture(at 1150 watts)
> ...


THIS^^^ is why. I know exactly what yer saying. I use to run 8 1000 watters air cooled AND mini split ac (you still need ac after so many watts no matter what you doing with a fan) and depending on strain i averages 1.5 to 1.75 a lamp. It was tough hitting 2 plus with single ended air cooled and glass. I replaced with 8 Gavita 6/750's...kept room...ac...and dehuey size all the same...I can hit 2 pounds all day per lamp and using 2000 watts less to get there. Like i said...iam squeezing every last bit of this before it gets so cheap it wont be worth it for just about any total indoor grower to start a frikin seed much less flower out a room with electricity. I will prolly start looking at COBs very soon. Its all about efficiency....changing with the times and latest technology. But soon we are all going to be backed into a corner....its inevitable.


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## tjjohnson (Aug 23, 2016)

Since1991, would you mind elaborating on the room you have set up? I plan on building a room with 6 of the gavita flexs and am curious to see how others are running them but i cant find a whole lot. What size ac do you have for your 8? And are you in a sealed or unsealed room?


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

I run 8 total.Gavita flex 6/750's .....4 to a side spaced 4.5 feet on centers with an "alley way" down the middle. Corrugated plastic darins into rain gutters.Simple drip manifold from 4 30 gallon trash can reservoirs outside both rooms with 1000.gph pumps. Net trellis (double tier). Mitsubishi mini split ac at i believe 32,000 btu. Sante fe Classic dehuey. Big 10 inch blower with carbon filter for a scrubber. Bottled co2 with ppm sensor. All sealed up. I do have a vent with louvers that only blows in freezing cold winter air in those months hooked to a thermostat. I use that in like late November through mid march. Save bucks by turning off mini split. I thought it ass backwards to use ac in winter when its freezing out. Saves money. I also have a more traditional vemted room witj 4 aircooled 1000 watters bit i do not run this all year. But when i do i like to stagger 4.5 to 5 weeks harveys from each. My veg is a big 7×7 tent with 3 6 bulb t5's. I also have a 3x3 tester tent with a 400 watt and an old.ass American Hydro 3x3 table
I run all clones amd seeds i get off the street in here at least once so i dont fuck up production rooms with bugs...spot mildew...and hermies.


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## Shugglet (Aug 24, 2016)

The only way weed prices are going to fall as hard and fast as you crazies seem to think is if America decides to quit pussyfooting around and jump into the deep end of legalizing recreational across the board (Feds change their tune). And that is not happening in the next 5 years, sorry. Just have to get your supply to where the demand is...


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

Its certainly not going to be sudden. Like overnight. But once it goes full rec legal federally. It already has lowered in price drastically in the last 5 to 10 years or so. I have to do everything i can with indoor to stay super efficient short of ramping up scale. Bottom line is...growers that do this for a living have to make changes and continue to do so. Grow more as cheaply as possible to make the same or less money than a decade ago. This green rush cash cow is nothing like it was back in the eighties or nineties. I have adapted. But soon enough...we are all going to back into a corner where the big players will have huge gree house and ag operations where they can sell pounds for less than 300 bucks. And believe me...it will be quAlity. It has to be. Its inevitable. This whole industry that WE who've been here since the early days created is going bye bye soon. You can bank on that.


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## adower (Aug 24, 2016)

Once price drops low if it ever does is when you invest in solar.


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

adower said:


> Once price drops low if it ever does is when you invest in solar.


Huh? Yeah rite...invest in expensive solar panels to grow weed inddors under energy wasting expensive lamps and controls to mimic outdoors. Why not just skip all the madness (which made sense in the dark days when it all moved indoors to not get caught) and grow in a highly efficient greenhouse with all the fixins? Or well grown organic outside? The whole reason and indoor growing paradigm is changing and slowly fading away in direct proportion to the state of acceptance amd legalization.


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## ttystikk (Aug 24, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Think they were joking.


No I wasn't. Not even a tiny little bit.


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## adower (Aug 24, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Huh? Yeah rite...invest in expensive solar panels to grow weed inddors under energy hogging grow lamps...yeah rite. Why not just skip all the madness (which made sense in the dark days when it all moved indoors to not get caught) and grow in a highly efficient greenhouse with all the fixins? The whole reason and indoor growing paradigm is changing and slowly fading away in direct proportion to the state of acceptance amd legalization.


Because if you live in an residential area a green house looks out of place. The solar panels will offset some of the cost of electricity. Indoor isn't going to go anywhere. Look at all the fat warehouse grows in Colorado. In my opinion you get a cleaner product with Indoor


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

adower said:


> Once price drops low if it ever does is when you invest in solar.


Thats like in a three stooges episode where they are trying to get in a locked house and moe tells curly to climb through the window unlock the door. So he does but climbs back out the window so they all walk in. Lol


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## ttystikk (Aug 24, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> at times, doing what you love, GROWING. becomes a curse, i think about giving up what i love simply because of the stress,, i never thought growing legally would have caused more stress than illegally.. i swear with each funeral i attend,,i get closer to quitting this truly painfull journey..


But those still with us still need our help. 

I do hope you didn't disappear, drop me a note or pm sometime?


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

adower said:


> Because if you live in an residential area a green house looks out of place. The solar panels will offset some of the cost of electricity. Indoor isn't going to go anywhere. Look at all the fat warehouse grows in Colorado. In my opinion you get a cleaner product with Indoor


The only reason those "fat warehouses" are popping up is because of the semi and quasi legality....thus still high priced...of cannabis. Those warehouses wont be growing shit when eventually pot drops so low in price. When big ag takes over. ....100 dollars a poind is a HUGE profit margin...moreso than any ag crop on the planet. You cant see the forest for the trees bro. There are ways to grow pot in huge amounts as cheaply as possible...but cheaply as possible isnt that important...yet.


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

You have to understand....what iam talking about is still a ways away...but i believe not as long as some might think.


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## ttystikk (Aug 24, 2016)

Shugglet said:


> The only way weed prices are going to fall as hard and fast as you crazies seem to think is if America decides to quit pussyfooting around and jump into the deep end of legalizing recreational across the board (Feds change their tune). And that is not happening in the next 5 years, sorry. Just have to get your supply to where the demand is...


It's a weed that grows well outdoors. The idea that is going to take a long time to figure this out is kinda funny, every time I look at a cornfield. 

The trend in Colorado hydro stores now is more and more farm boys applying mass production techniques to cannabis, both indoors and out. 

$500 pounds for outdoor is a number I've already heard and it's still August.


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## adower (Aug 24, 2016)

since1991 said:


> The only reason those "fat warehouses" are popping up is because of the semi and quasi legality....thus still high priced...of cannabis. Those warehouses wont be growing shit when eventually pot drops so low in price. When big ag takes over. ....100 dollars a poind is a HUGE profit margin...moreso than any ag crop on the planet. You cant see the forest for the trees bro. There are ways to grow pot in huge amounts as cheaply as possible...but cheaply as possible isnt that important...yet.


How long have people been talking about big ag taking over or it going legal federally? That not happening anytime soon.


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> It's a weed that grows well outdoors. The idea that is going to take a long time to figure this out is kinda funny, every time I look at a cornfield.
> 
> The trend in Colorado hydro stores now is more and more farm boys applying mass production techniques to cannabis, both indoors and out.
> 
> $500 pounds for outdoor is a number I've already heard and it's still August.


And who (most growers) can make a profit off of 500 or less per.pound running normal hid type setups? The smaller house type setups will be the first to call it quits. And actually...i know of several growers that already have. Or scaled.down drastically because of electric bills and focused more.on outdoor or greenhouse.


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## adower (Aug 24, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> It's a weed that grows well outdoors. The idea that is going to take a long time to figure this out is kinda funny, every time I look at a cornfield.
> 
> The trend in Colorado hydro stores now is more and more farm boys applying mass production techniques to cannabis, both indoors and out.
> 
> $500 pounds for outdoor is a number I've already heard and it's still August.


There is more too it than that. There are groups of people with tons of money that will fight it.


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## Shugglet (Aug 24, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> It's a weed that grows well outdoors. The idea that is going to take a long time to figure this out is kinda funny, every time I look at a cornfield.
> 
> The trend in Colorado hydro stores now is more and more farm boys applying mass production techniques to cannabis, both indoors and out.
> 
> $500 pounds for outdoor is a number I've already heard and it's still August.


Yep, it grows well everywhere. Yet as long as there's places where youll end up in prison for years for cultivating it, it will be more than $500/lb. 

Go to a state where it is not rec legal and see how much an LB goes for. Like I said, its a big market, and legal spots arent the rule for pricing, theyre the exception to the rule. 

Which goes back to my original argument. Prices wont be like that until a majority of the states legalize it for recreational.


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## Shugglet (Aug 24, 2016)

People in recreation legal states need to remember that they literally are in their own little world.


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## adower (Aug 24, 2016)

since1991 said:


> And who (most growers) can make a profit off of 500 or less per.pound running normal hid type setups? The smaller house type setups will be the first to call it quits. And actually...i know of several growers that already have. Or scaled.down drastically because of electric bills and focused more.on outdoor or greenhouse.


Sounds like people need to make better business connections. There is no way that an electric bill should make you cut out growing if you know what you're doing.


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

adower said:


> How long have people been talking about big ag taking over or it going legal federally? That not happening anytime soon.


Actually not that long and i think it will happen sooner than you think. It all depends on what feds do. The recent dea decision to keep cannabis on the schedule where its at is prolonging the current state...but that will change. There is no way this can continue like it has. Popular attitude towards cannabis is drastically different than say...just a few years ago. To stick your head in the sand and say "it will never happen" is just dumb.


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

adower said:


> Sounds like people need to make better business connections. There is no way that an electric bill should make you cut out growing if you know what you're doing.


Wow. Just wow.


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Wow. Just wow.


There will come a time when that electric bill totally indoors will absolutely outweigh the cost of a pound of pot. How long have you been at this bro...if you dont mind me asking?


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## Shugglet (Aug 24, 2016)

since1991 said:


> The only reason those "fat warehouses" are popping up is because of the semi and quasi legality....thus still high priced...of cannabis. Those warehouses wont be growing shit when eventually pot drops so low in price. When big ag takes over. ....100 dollars a poind is a HUGE profit margin...moreso than any ag crop on the planet. You cant see the forest for the trees bro. There are ways to grow pot in huge amounts as cheaply as possible...but cheaply as possible isnt that important...yet.


Big AG wont touch it with a 10ft pole until the Feds deregulate. You think that is going to happen soon? Any logic behind how that would happen in the next 5 years? Youre so focused on the forest that cant see we havent even reached the woods yet.


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## adower (Aug 24, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Actually not that long and i think it will happen sooner than you think. It all depends on what feds do. The recent dea decision to keep cannabis on the schedule where its at is prolonging the current state...but that will change. There is no way this can continue like it has. Popular attitude towards cannabis is drastically different than say...just a few years ago. To stick your head in the sand and say "it will never happen" is just dumb.


Its not going to happen anytime soon.


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## Shugglet (Aug 24, 2016)

Also, you dont think lighting costs are going to come down in the next 5-10 years with the advancements taking place in LED tech???

You guys are all making crazy assumptions.


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## adower (Aug 24, 2016)

since1991 said:


> There will come a time when that electric bill totally indoors will absolutely outweigh the cost of a pound of pot. How long have you been at this bro...if you dont mind me asking?


9 years. I've seen the prices drop over 2k a unit from when I started. Even so it is still not even nearly close to being unprofitable at this point.


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## Shugglet (Aug 24, 2016)

adower said:


> Its not going to happen anytime soon.


Right, anyone saying its "never going to happen" is burying their head in the sand, I agree. 

That said, thinking its going to happen in the very near future is probably also an argument towards having ones head buried in sand. 
Thinking politically, Id say it has next to no chance in Hillary's first term. MAYBE her second, but thats a huge maybe. There are way bigger forces involved than simply public opinion.


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

Shugglet said:


> Yep, it grows well everywhere. Yet as long as there's places where youll end up in prison for years for cultivating it, it will be more than $500/lb.
> 
> Go to a state where it is not rec legal and see how much an LB goes for. Like I said, its a big market, and legal spots arent the rule for pricing, theyre the exception to the rule.
> 
> Which goes back to my original argument. Prices wont be like that until a majority of the states legalize it for recreational.


Like i said...theres still some time left...but the clock is ticking. I heard N. Dakota is a growers market. Still can get them old timey prices. Iam not about to pull some crazy shit. Iam cool rigjt here in Michigan. But mark my words....eventually states like North Dakota will fall like a domino too.


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

adower said:


> Its not going to happen anytime soon.


Thats the big million dollar question isnt it? When? We can all rack our brains with that one. Until then...its all just conjecture. Good arguments and discussion here though. Way off op original topic thread but this is good stuff.


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## Shugglet (Aug 24, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Like i said...theres still some time left...but the clock is ticking. I heard N. Dakota is a growers market. Still can get them old timey prices. Iam not about to pull some crazy shit. Iam cool rigjt here in Michigan. But mark my words....eventually states like North Dakota will fall like a domino too.


Eventually is pretty broad term, wouldnt you say? 

Lets put it this way, any investment anyone makes into growing MJ in any market outside of legal for rec states at this time will remain profitable long after it has paid itself off and wasnt that the whole argument about "start saving your money now"...?


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## adower (Aug 24, 2016)

Shugglet said:


> Right, anyone saying its "never going to happen" is burying their head in the sand, I agree.
> 
> That said, thinking its going to happen in the very near future is probably also an argument towards having ones head buried in sand.
> Thinking politically, Id say it has next to no chance in Hillary's first term. MAYBE her second, but thats a huge maybe. There are way bigger forces involved than simply public opinion.


i agree. I mean eventually if this earth lasts that long at some point they will probably charge for air or something. my point was that it's not right around the corner. In addition, technology changes. Lights will be better and more efficient. If you live in a good area you can run lights at night and not need AC at all (Bay Area).


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## Shugglet (Aug 24, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Thats the big million dollar question isnt it? When? We can all rack our brains with that one. Until then...its all just conjecture. Good arguments and discussion here though. Way off op original topic thread but this is good stuff.


IMO opinion this will be a state led charge. A majority of states will have to force the governments hand, and even then it will be a hard sell. Too many conflicts of interest.


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## adower (Aug 24, 2016)

Shugglet said:


> IMO opinion this will be a state led charge. A majority of states will have to force the governments hand, and even then it will be a hard sell. Too many conflicts of interest.


To expand on this. Look at the states that were suing Colorado for legalization due to persons buying there and bringing it over state lines.


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## ttystikk (Aug 24, 2016)

adower said:


> There is more too it than that. There are groups of people with tons of money that will fight it.


They'll eventually lose.


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## ttystikk (Aug 24, 2016)

Shugglet said:


> People in recreation legal states need to remember that they literally are in their own little world.


No, Sir. The world comes to US.


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## a mongo frog (Aug 24, 2016)

adower said:


> (Bay Area)


I love the Bay Area!!!!!! Has to be one of the best places on this planet!!!!!


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> They'll eventually lose.


Its inevitable. The cats already out the bag. Once Cali did the Medical thing back in tje day...the clock started ticking. And the lab rat Colorado...with the huge amounts of cash generated without the negative scenarios playing out was the icing on the cake.


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

Alot.of state government officials and politicians were looking at how Colorado would play out very very closely. She...by some wierd default setting...became the test state. And its thumbs up and game on now. Especially for cash strapped states that were and are much less off than Colorado. I mean...lets be real here...Colorado wasnt exactly piss poor broke before rec legalization.


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> I love the Bay Area!!!!!! Has to be one of the best places on this planet!!!!!


I do too...bigtime. My gal and I lived in Hopland just outside Ukiah back in the day. We would go down to Frisco every now akd again and party down. Fun city for sure. Dont know if any of yall are into the band Black Keys...but we were early fans and saw them at the Fillmore. Wow...what a show that was. There new stuff is ok but they was real greasy back then. Also saw John Hammond at the Biscuits and Blues in Berkeley back then. For like 15 bucks. Real low key. Met him and his manager wife after the show. I will never forget it. San Fran and the surrounding area has always treated me righteous.


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## adower (Aug 24, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> They'll eventually lose.


They may. Billions of dollars at stake. It's going to be held back anyway it can.


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## a mongo frog (Aug 24, 2016)

since1991 said:


> I do too...bigtime. My gal and I lived in Hopland just outside Ukiah back in the day. We would go down to Frisco every now akd again and party down. Fun city for sure. Dont know if any of yall are into the band Black Keys...but we were early fans and saw them at the Fillmore. Wow...what a show that was. There new stuff is ok but they was real greasy back then. Also saw John Hammond at the Biscuits and Blues in Berkeley back then. For like 15 bucks. Real low key. Met him and his manager wife after the show. I will never forget it. San Fran and the surrounding area has always treated me righteous.


Fuck your so right!!!! So you don't live around here anymore? Dude the taco truck in hopland is fucking epic!!!! The one before the casino. What years were you around these parts?


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Fuck your so right!!!! So you don't live around here anymore? Dude the taco truck in hopland is fucking epic!!!! The one before the casino. What years were you around these parts?


Oh shit. ..about 2005 to 2008 i believe. How about driving that Hopland Grade to get to Clearlake huh? What a fuker that was!!! Lol


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Fuck your so right!!!! So you don't live around here anymore? Dude the taco truck in hopland is fucking epic!!!! The one before the casino. What years were you around these parts?


Naw...my wife and i moved back to Michigan about early '09 i think. She has family in Lower Lake that almost lost thier house in tje recent fire.


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## Michael Huntherz (Aug 24, 2016)

patrickkawi37 said:


> I agree that you will be able to get pounds for 500 bucks in 5 years ... But you won't be getting my weed for that. I don't grow garbage . It would be impossible to turn a profit at that price. So this is where you say yes but if you growing with leds your run cost is lower.. So what your saying is people are going to drop 100k+ for lighting setups ... Where they are going to profit a couple thousand dollars a batch... And it's going to take them 20 years to get there investment back. What you are saying makes sense to you.. But it's not reality . You cannot compare a successful small tent grow and think that it's going to be as successful on a large scale. Growers are getting upwards of 5 pounds per thousand watt lamp. I got 3.25 per light my last run and I am a noob...
> 
> Electricity costs are not strictly lighting ..the bigger the room, more fans more dehus more everything your going to need.. Lights are not where the power is being used.. So saving a little on light and compromising your yield..... Per fixture and sqft.. Is a god damn joke. And I know I can argue this til I'm blue in the face with you. But your not a commercial grower .. And if you ever are.. Your opinion on this is going to change.. Or it will be the beginning of one hell of a failure for you. Find me a fixture that you can pull over 3 pounds from 1 fixture.. Out of a 5x5 space . Hps is the ONLY way to go. And double ended is dope and all... But I'm doing just as good under my single ended fixtures . If you don't have 10 foot + roof space I think gavitas do more harm than good .


Mmhmmmm go on.


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

Michael Huntherz said:


> Mmhmmmm go on.


Mmm...me too. Puhlease go on. Listen noob...its all newish and fresh to ya isnt it? Lemme tell ya sumthin and get this straight. ..what yer doing and where yer at is not new. Maybe to u and yers but believe me when i say...its not.


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## Michael Huntherz (Aug 24, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Mmm...me too. Puhlease go on. Listen noob...its all newish and fresh to ya isnt it? Lemme tell ya sumthin and get this straight. ..what yer doing and where yer at is not new. Maybe to u and yers but believe me when i say...its not.


You are talking to @patrickkawi37 right? To clarify, I was calling shenanigans on his post. I think we are on the same page.


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

yes i was. Here on riu....is rife with noobs and third year pros that think they just hit the jackpot or whatever. I dont mean to be a debbie downer or what have you...but iam here to tell them...i been where yer at rite now. Its all good. But ground yerself in reality fer a sec. Theres a reason you "discovered" how easy it can be to grow fire ass cannabis indoors under lights. And its not anything revolutionary or ah hah light bulbish moment. And dont put all yer eggs in one basket. I welcome the new ness and intrigue and questions...but ...


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## Michael Huntherz (Aug 24, 2016)

since1991 said:


> yes i was. Here on riu....is rife with noobs and third year pros that think they just hit the jackpot or whatever. I dont mean to be a debbie downer or what have you...but iam here to tell them...i been where yer at rite now. Its all good. But ground yerself in reality fer a sec. Theres a reason you "discovered" how easy it can be to grow fire ass cannabis indoors under lights. And its not anything revolutionary or ah hah light bulbish moment. And dont put all yer eggs in one basket. I welcome the new ness and intrigue and questions...but ...


I haven't been growing long, but I have been around long enough to know I am not a special snowflake, haha. There is a lot of immature behavior out there, and it does get tiring even for a newb like me. I just love growing this plant a lot, and I have been an every day burner for over a quarter of a century, I guess. That's where I am coming from. I sometimes see a thoughtful person take up growing, use their head and be humble about it. They usually do great. But for every one of them there are a thousand loudmouths who think they are going to change the world before their second harvest.


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

Michael Huntherz said:


> I haven't been growing long, but I have been around long enough to know I am not a special snowflake, haha. There is a lot of immature behavior out there, and it does get tiring even for a newb like me. I just love growing this plant a lot, and I have been an every day burner for over a quarter of a century, I guess. That's where I am coming from. I sometimes see a thoughtful person take up growing, use their head and be humble about it. They usually do great. But for every one of them there are a thousand loudmouths who think they are going to change the world before their second harvest.


You said the KEY WORD to me. Humility!!! I can already tell yer approaching this with the right head. I will be honest and say....back in the early nineties i thought i was the cock of the walk. Complete ego douche bag. I had no clue. It was so underground back then. I thought i was king and had the best...how wrong i was. Took le years to really learn how to grow. And man up and realize. ..i didntmm.and still dont know jack shit.


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## since1991 (Aug 24, 2016)

We should start a new thread titled "you thought you knew it all but..." The first thing i would reply is breeding ...tissue culture...and COB lighting


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## Michael Huntherz (Aug 24, 2016)

since1991 said:


> You said the KEY WORD to me. Humility!!! I can already tell yer approaching this with the right head. I will be honest and say....back in the early nineties i thought i was the cock of the walk. Complete ego douche bag. I had no clue. It was so underground back then. I thought i was king and had the best...how wrong i was. Took le years to really learn how to grow. And man up and realize. ..i didntmm.and still dont know jack shit.


If I have learned anything about how to learn anything it is that the first step is to accept that I am an idiot who knows almost nothing. There's some science behind that, and in the real world I learn stuff for a living, I should honestly be better at it. I know you are a hell of a grower at this point, I have seen that.

It all goes back to the learning process, read this if you feel like getting nerdy with that sort of thing:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_model_of_skill_acquisition
Or how to hunt bears:
http://www.wayland-informatics.com/The Seven Stages of Expertise in Software.htm


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## ttystikk (Aug 24, 2016)

Michael Huntherz said:


> If I have learned anything about how to learn anything it is that the first step is to accept that I am an idiot who knows almost nothing. There's some science behind that, and in the real world I learn stuff for a living, I should honestly be better at it. I know you are a hell of a grower at this point, I have seen that.
> 
> It all goes back to the learning process, read this if you feel like getting nerdy with that sort of thing:
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_model_of_skill_acquisition
> ...


Good links, bro.


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## Agcat (Aug 27, 2016)

Look up cherry tomatoes grown in AZ . 640 ACRE greenhouse .By the way, I Iive in Anchorage ,Alaska ,where warehouse space is at a premium ,investors just waiting for the state to start licensing . Ever hear of a gold rush , better to be a purveyor of shovels , than a prospector for gold .


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## since1991 (Aug 27, 2016)

Companys in the greenhouse equipment business are just starting to make alot of money. And will make a shitload in the near future. Ive even heard of huge offers being made for huge already existing hot house tomato complexes in the Southwest....to buy them up completely and make them ready for cannabis farming. Soon these ag complexes will be cranking out cannabis by the tonnage. Price sets are so up in the air...and will be for a minute until the dust settles and the legalization "model" is set. Nows the time for the cowboys with lots of cash to buy up amd invest. Going off of existing (coming fresh out of prohibition) price models....ALOT of monies to he made very quickly.


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## kelly1376 (Aug 28, 2016)

Agcat said:


> Look up cherry tomatoes grown in AZ . 640 ACRE greenhouse .By the way, I Iive in Anchorage ,Alaska ,where warehouse space is at a premium ,investors just waiting for the state to start licensing . Ever hear of a gold rush , better to be a purveyor of shovels , than a prospector for gold .


I've done quite a bit of research into the tomato model and figure the ultimate wholesale price of cannabis could fall as low as the ~$50/lb area. Tomatoes sell for ~$1/lb wholesale, and their are farmers making money at that price. Tomato plants grown in greenhouse or outdoor produce ~20-30 lbs per plant. Figure cannabis greenhouse or outdoor averages ~1 lb per plant. So 20-30:1. A tomato farmer could switch to growing cannabis and wholesale it at $50 per pound and still make more than he is selling tomatoes at $1 per pound. Now how about $100-$500 pound wholesale? Think of all the true ag farmers ready to sign up for a shot at those numbers. 

Now I know the argument that quality cannabis is much more difficult to grow and produce than tomatoes. I believe that's mostly a myth. Part of the problem is the industry is very insular and canna growers normally don't have formal agricultural training and get all their growing info from industry targeted hydroponic companies. The cost of fertilizers, amendments etc is very cheap for real farmers who deal with agriculture suppliers.


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## a mongo frog (Aug 28, 2016)

kelly1376 said:


> I've done quite a bit of research into the tomato model and figure the ultimate wholesale price of cannabis could fall as low as the ~$50/lb area. Tomatoes sell for ~$1/lb wholesale, and their are farmers making money at that price. Tomato plants grown in greenhouse or outdoor produce ~20-30 lbs per plant. Figure cannabis greenhouse or outdoor averages ~1 lb per plant. So 20-30:1. A tomato farmer could switch to growing cannabis and wholesale it at $50 per pound and still make more than he is selling tomatoes at $1 per pound. Now how about $100-$500 pound wholesale? Think of all the true ag farmers ready to sign up for a shot at those numbers.
> 
> Now I know the argument that quality cannabis is much more difficult to grow and produce than tomatoes. I believe that's mostly a myth. Part of the problem is the industry is very insular and canna growers normally don't have formal agricultural training and get all their growing info from industry targeted hydroponic companies. The cost of fertilizers, amendments etc is very cheap for real farmers who deal with agriculture suppliers.


So when will the ag farmers break out the lights for this project? Or will the sun shine on them and their out door every day of the year?


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## kelly1376 (Aug 28, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> So when will the ag farmers break out the lights for this project? Or will the sun shine on them and their out door every day of the year?


Ag doesn't just mean pure outdoor. Greenhouses with supplemental lighting are already used for every crop imaginable, their technology is rapidly improving, and it takes a lot less supplemental light one might initially think to grow in most places. 

https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ho/ho-238-w.pdf

The chart on page 2 is very informative. A daily light integral of 10 (about the lowest outside lighting ever gets anywhere in the U.S. in the winter) is comparable to growing under t5s indoors. A DLI of 15 is about equivalent to 400 HPS and 20 is comparable to 600 HPS indoors. Natural sunlight works in most places the majority of the year already, but with a market like cannabis there's plenty of profit potential (even at what some might consider low prices) to install good supplemental lighting. A 2000 square foot greenhouse in a cold climate could install 20 gavitas (1 per 100 square foot) and probably boost DLI by 10 points. The pure indoor grower would use those same gavitas in only a 250 square foot area.


----------



## Yodaweed (Aug 28, 2016)

kelly1376 said:


> I've done quite a bit of research into the tomato model and figure the ultimate wholesale price of cannabis could fall as low as the ~$50/lb area. Tomatoes sell for ~$1/lb wholesale, and their are farmers making money at that price. Tomato plants grown in greenhouse or outdoor produce ~20-30 lbs per plant. Figure cannabis greenhouse or outdoor averages ~1 lb per plant. So 20-30:1. A tomato farmer could switch to growing cannabis and wholesale it at $50 per pound and still make more than he is selling tomatoes at $1 per pound. Now how about $100-$500 pound wholesale? Think of all the true ag farmers ready to sign up for a shot at those numbers.
> 
> Now I know the argument that quality cannabis is much more difficult to grow and produce than tomatoes. I believe that's mostly a myth. Part of the problem is the industry is very insular and canna growers normally don't have formal agricultural training and get all their growing info from industry targeted hydroponic companies. The cost of fertilizers, amendments etc is very cheap for real farmers who deal with agriculture suppliers.


You are so right about fertilizers, so many still using bottled nutrients.


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## a mongo frog (Aug 28, 2016)

kelly1376 said:


> price of cannabis could fall as low as the ~$50/lb area. Tomatoes sell for ~$1/lb wholesale, and their are farmers making money at that price.


I Wonder why cannabis didn't fall to 50 dollars per pound in Colorado or Washington State? Cannabis is selling for more then it has in years right now. Wonder whats happening.......


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## kelly1376 (Aug 28, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> I Wonder why cannabis didn't fall to 50 dollars per pound in Colorado or Washington State? Cannabis is selling for more then it has in years right now. Wonder whats happening.......


It will take some time. Legal production is still in it's early infancy and both those states put severe limitations on production licenses. Oregon will be a better representation of what cannabis will look like in a full legal environment because they have more of a free market policy for producers. Give Oregon a few years and you'll have a better idea what cannabis will look like nationwide in a fully legal environment. 

In Colorado the move towards lowering production costs is just getting started. The trend has been huge warehouse grows but people are starting to move towards huge greenhouse grows because they see they will need to lower production costs over time.


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## Shugglet (Aug 29, 2016)

kelly1376 said:


> It will take some time. Legal production is still in it's early infancy and both those states put severe limitations on production licenses. Oregon will be a better representation of what cannabis will look like in a full legal environment because they have more of a free market policy for producers. Give Oregon a few years and you'll have a better idea what cannabis will look like nationwide in a fully legal environment.
> 
> In Colorado the move towards lowering production costs is just getting started. The trend has been huge warehouse grows but people are starting to move towards huge greenhouse grows because they see they will need to lower production costs over time.


Better hurry boys, in 20-30 years weed "could" be at $50/lb. I just wonder if weed will hit your price target before or after Tesla is the #1 auto producer in the US. 

On the bright side, at those prices weed should literally be dirt cheap right? Also, in this scenario it doesnt sound like there will be much stopping anyone from growing plants anywhere outside, so...

Out of curiosity, what are prices like in places over in europe where it isnt illegal?


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## Yodaweed (Aug 29, 2016)

Shugglet said:


> Better hurry boys, in 20-30 years weed "could" be at $50/lb. I just wonder if weed will hit your price target before or after Tesla is the #1 auto producer in the US.
> 
> On the bright side, at those prices weed should literally be dirt cheap right? Also, in this scenario it doesnt sound like there will be much stopping anyone from growing plants anywhere outside, so...
> 
> Out of curiosity, what are prices like in places over in europe where it isnt illegal?


At those prices we would be buying weed from Walmart.


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## since1991 (Aug 29, 2016)

kelly1376 said:


> I've done quite a bit of research into the tomato model and figure the ultimate wholesale price of cannabis could fall as low as the ~$50/lb area. Tomatoes sell for ~$1/lb wholesale, and their are farmers making money at that price. Tomato plants grown in greenhouse or outdoor produce ~20-30 lbs per plant. Figure cannabis greenhouse or outdoor averages ~1 lb per plant. So 20-30:1. A tomato farmer could switch to growing cannabis and wholesale it at $50 per pound and still make more than he is selling tomatoes at $1 per pound. Now how about $100-$500 pound wholesale? Think of all the true ag farmers ready to sign up for a shot at those numbers.
> 
> Now I know the argument that quality cannabis is much more difficult to grow and produce than tomatoes. I believe that's mostly a myth. Part of the problem is the industry is very insular and canna growers normally don't have formal agricultural training and get all their growing info from industry targeted hydroponic companies. The cost of fertilizers, amendments etc is very cheap for real farmers who deal with agriculture suppliers.


Well said. Growers who think big ag and corporation's cannot grow true high quality are delusional in my opinion.


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## since1991 (Aug 29, 2016)

Shugglet said:


> Better hurry boys, in 20-30 years weed "could" be at $50/lb. I just wonder if weed will hit your price target before or after Tesla is the #1 auto producer in the US.
> 
> On the bright side, at those prices weed should literally be dirt cheap right? Also, in this scenario it doesnt sound like there will be much stopping anyone from growing plants anywhere outside, so...
> 
> Out of curiosity, what are prices like in places over in europe where it isnt illegal?


Be ALOT sooner than that i would think. Soon as the feds reschedule cannabis (they will eventually) and Washington hammers out a legalization strategy as more states come on board. Its coming is all iam saying. Theres no way pound prices are staying in the low 4 digits as legalization progresses. Even high 3 digits. Just cannot.


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## since1991 (Aug 29, 2016)

kelly1376 said:


> Ag doesn't just mean pure outdoor. Greenhouses with supplemental lighting are already used for every crop imaginable, their technology is rapidly improving, and it takes a lot less supplemental light one might initially think to grow in most places.
> 
> https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ho/ho-238-w.pdf
> 
> The chart on page 2 is very informative. A daily light integral of 10 (about the lowest outside lighting ever gets anywhere in the U.S. in the winter) is comparable to growing under t5s indoors. A DLI of 15 is about equivalent to 400 HPS and 20 is comparable to 600 HPS indoors. Natural sunlight works in most places the majority of the year already, but with a market like cannabis there's plenty of profit potential (even at what some might consider low prices) to install good supplemental lighting. A 2000 square foot greenhouse in a cold climate could install 20 gavitas (1 per 100 square foot) and probably boost DLI by 10 points. The pure indoor grower would use those same gavitas in only a 250 square foot area.


You have done your homework thats for sure.


----------



## since1991 (Aug 29, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> I Wonder why cannabis didn't fall to 50 dollars per pound in Colorado or Washington State? Cannabis is selling for more then it has in years right now. Wonder whats happening.......


Because its fairly new and based off of variations of the old blackmarket model still. Give it time....more states going recreational (especially California and New York and the setups they choose) and Washington passing legalization laws....it wont be overnight. Its actually happening as we speak....prices falling in increments. Ive already heard prices of outdoor in Colorado being ridiculously low coming up. I dont know. Iam here in Michigan. Prices lower and lower. Iam not the sharpest knife in the drawer bit i damn sure fit in the drawer. We got some time left but.....


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## Shugglet (Aug 29, 2016)

You guys dont think taxes will inflate the costs associated with it? Not to mention for it to be sold publicly it needs to be lab tested, does it not? 

History has taught us, and is teaching us, this will be a loooong drawn out process. As long as the Feds refuse to play ball prices wont fall like described.


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## kelly1376 (Aug 29, 2016)

Shugglet said:


> You guys dont think taxes will inflate the costs associated with it? Not to mention for it to be sold publicly it needs to be lab tested, does it not?
> 
> History has taught us, and is teaching us, this will be a loooong drawn out process. As long as the Feds refuse to play ball prices wont fall like described.


Taxes will help keep prices higher but not sure how long those super high taxes will last as things become fully legal federally. Marijuana is a potentially big industry the main problem is it's really not THAT big as far as how much growing it takes to meet demand and once you have a market in oversupply price can drop to any ridiculous number. Farmers have bills to pay and if you have no money coming in you gotta take what you can get. I mentioned Oregon earier because Oregon has said they aren't going to set a limit on producer licenses and based on some quick analysis they're looking at a massive oversupply situation starting probably around November of 2017.

Consider this:

Here is a very relevant paper on a study the University of Washington did:

http://www.cannalawblog.com/washington-state-cannabis-report/

Washington currently has 10 million "potential" square feet of total producer canopy space allocated for all cannabis markets. I say potential because they've set caps and haven't allocated all of that.

Based off that report at the link above the total canopy needed for current WA med cannabis market is 2 million square feet. The total market is estimated at 1/3 medical, 1/3 recreational, and 1/3 illicit, which would require 6 million square feet of total combined indoor/outdoor intra-state canopy square footage to service. 6 million square feet is roughly ~137 acres. As far as farming goes thats not jack! I grew up with at least 20 various ag crop fields bigger than that within 5 minutes of me. And that's 137 acres of combined indoor/outdoor weed needed for the entire state!

Next, relating this to the OR market. Oregon says there are no limits to how many producers can obtain licenses. If you go to the following link you can see there are currently 829 Oregon producers who have submitted applications:

http://www.oregon.gov/olcc/marijuana/Documents/mj_app_stats_by_county.pdf

If 1/2 of these are tier 1 (20 thousand square feet maximum) and half are tier 2 (40 thousand square feet maximum) that's already ~24.9 million square feet of total canopy space, or ~571 total acres. That's more than triple the canopy space needed to service the WA markets and likely over the next year there will be a lot more producers applying as they secure funding.

Washington - 6.9 million population
Oregon - 4.1 million population

That also doesn't factor in the more lax individual non-producer laws in OR. Any individual who wants can grow 4 plants.

It'll take a couple years for all those producers to get licensed and built out and rolling, but unfortunately I feel there are gonna be a ton of unhappy OR producers in the next couple of years as the OR market appears to be headed towards massive oversupply. Also consider Oregon producers were already struggling before all these producers started applying for licenses and doing massive buildouts.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/even-with-legalization--making-money-from-marijuana-in-oregon-could-be-tough-190159408.html

The place to be IMO is in the service industries: packaging, edibles, concentrates etc. and various other service industries. Someone mentioned earlier the place to be during the gold rush was the guy selling shovels lol IMO the producers that thrive are gonna be the ones that can keep their costs down and cash flow at low prices while still producing high quality product.


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## a mongo frog (Aug 29, 2016)

Shugglet said:


> You guys dont think taxes will inflate the costs associated with it? Not to mention for it to be sold publicly it needs to be lab tested, does it not?
> 
> History has taught us, and is teaching us, this will be a loooong drawn out process. As long as the Feds refuse to play ball prices wont fall like described.


This is what i thought as well.


kelly1376 said:


> Taxes will help keep prices higher but not sure how long those super high taxes will last as things become fully legal federally. Marijuana is a potentially big industry the main problem is it's really not THAT big as far as how much growing it takes to meet demand and once you have a market in oversupply price can drop to any ridiculous number. Farmers have bills to pay and if you have no money coming in you gotta take what you can get. I mentioned Oregon earier because Oregon has said they aren't going to set a limit on producer licenses and based on some quick analysis they're looking at a massive oversupply situation starting probably around November of 2017.


So your saying that Oregon and California residents are going to be the number one consumers of the rec cannabis once one of them starts their program and the other gets voted in? Thats the part where i get confused a little. where i live every 4th house has a home garden and they're patients and help other patients. So basically everyone already has cannabis . And if you have overages you can vend to a dispensary or do patient to patient moves to get others medication. Honestly I only see what your taking about if the Ag startups get jellious that their shit aint moving, because Billy down the road there grows an og that would blow your fucking socks off and that lady Sara 7 blocks away grows a dank ass Orange that you have to try. So then Tillray drops their millions and pays off bitches to look at our electric bills and they start invading our privacy and try to stop medical gardening. So @kelly1376 you want that type of government run shit in your country? Where they tell you what your going to consume and what your not. Even though Sara's cannabis is 100 times better then yours and Tillrays? Tell us your thoughts.


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## since1991 (Aug 29, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> This is what i thought as well.
> 
> So your saying that Oregon and California residents are going to be the number one consumers of the rec cannabis once one of them starts their program and the other gets voted in? Thats the part where i get confused a little. where i live every 4th house has a home garden and they're patients and help other patients. So basically everyone already has cannabis . And if you have overages you can vend to a dispensary or do patient to patient moves to get others medication. Honestly I only see what your taking about if the Ag startups get jellious that their shit aint moving, because Billy down the road there grows an og that would blow your fucking socks off and that lady Sara 7 blocks away grows a dank ass Orange that you have to try. So then Tillray drops their millions and pays off bitches to look at our electric bills and they start invading our privacy and try to stop medical gardening. So @kelly1376 you want that type of government run shit in your country? Where they tell you what your going to consume and what your not. Even though Sara's cannabis is 100 times better then yours and Tillrays? Tell us your thoughts.


Lady Sara 7 Orange....good name for a strain bro. I like it.


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## kelly1376 (Aug 29, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> This is what i thought as well.
> 
> So your saying that Oregon and California residents are going to be the number one consumers of the rec cannabis once one of them starts their program and the other gets voted in? Thats the part where i get confused a little. where i live every 4th house has a home garden and they're patients and help other patients. So basically everyone already has cannabis . And if you have overages you can vend to a dispensary or do patient to patient moves to get others medication. Honestly I only see what your taking about if the Ag startups get jellious that their shit aint moving, because Billy down the road there grows an og that would blow your fucking socks off and that lady Sara 7 blocks away grows a dank ass Orange that you have to try. So then Tillray drops their millions and pays off bitches to look at our electric bills and they start invading our privacy and try to stop medical gardening. So @kelly1376 you want that type of government run shit in your country? Where they tell you what your going to consume and what your not. Even though Sara's cannabis is 100 times better then yours and Tillrays? Tell us your thoughts.


I'm not talking about any government intervention. I dont really know too much about the gaffe between medical and recreational in california - have heard a little but haven't looked into it much. All I'm saying is if the dispensaries you sell to have 100 other Saras and 100 other Billys bringing them stuff the premium likely will no longer exist. And that likely will happen as laws are relaxed. It's like any other commodity. Not everybody is a good grower but they aren't so rare that they can't be found. Even people going into the business blind can pay for good genetics and hire good growers and learn the ropes.


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## a mongo frog (Aug 29, 2016)

kelly1376 said:


> I'm not talking about any government intervention


You mean everything you've been saying about big Ag is not government intervention?


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## kelly1376 (Aug 29, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> You mean everything you've been saying about big Ag is not government intervention?


I dont see how making things more legal is more government intervention than keeping things illegal. What I've been referring to isn't big Ag at all but small ag. All those oregon licenses going in are all considered small mom and pop operations because they're restricted to no more than an acre of total production. It's the same in washington state. In agriculture an acre for a given crop is typically considered tiny. 

Honestly I'm not sure the market is really big enough for truly big ag (monsanto, J.R. Reynolds etc) to ever get involved on the production end. Especially if there's any lean towards keeping operations relatively small. 

Running some numbers. 

The U.S. has a population of 318.9 million

If 15% of the population uses weed thats 47.8 million users

Based on this report the "average" user consumes 100 grams per year:

http://business.time.com/2013/05/20/how-much-will-a-legal-marijuana-habit-cost-you/

So 100 grams per person & 47.8 million users thats 10.5 million pounds total

Lets say on average 1 acre of production (combined indoor, outdoor, greenhouse) produces an average of 3000 pounds per year

That's 3000 pounds per acre 

So 3,500 acres of total production

Or 3,500 one acre producers. Or average of a paltry 67 one acre producers per state. Obviously some states will have more and some less. 

Now that 10.5 million pounds sounds huge when you put a price tag on it at todays current prices (30 to 50 billion a year). But it doesn't sound so big when you break it down like I did. The numbers tend to indicate the entire market can be serviced by a relatively few mom and pop 1 acre outfits.


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## Shugglet (Aug 30, 2016)

So basically, big agriculture will be priced out of it before it can even enter the market. The only thing is, the big players could get into the genetics side of things, but I would question whether or not the financial incentives are there for them to bother entering the market.


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## J-Icky (Aug 30, 2016)

I read a good amount of this thread. Ok so for all those that say their stuff is so good and no big company could ever compare, well, CONCENTRATES. They can grow 1000 acres of seeded low grade bud, sell the seeds to the food industry, sell the fiber to the textile industry and run the leaf and bud through whatever processes and come out with concentrates that can beat anything you could grow. I'm sure they will be able to get 99.9% thc, 99.9% cbd, 99.9% every other cannabinoid and 99.9% every terpene imaginable and make whatever combination imaginable to help your patients better than anything you could ever grow and make EXACTLY what helps the patient the best, not just what does better than the other one.

Big companies WILL take over a HUGE chunk of the market once federally legal and they will do it by making the most money on the food and textile portions because the concentrates will be so overly abundant that there won't be a huge profit to be made on them unless you're doing them on their scale.


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## a mongo frog (Aug 30, 2016)

J-Icky said:


> I read a good amount of this thread. Ok so for all those that say their stuff is so good and no big company could ever compare, well, CONCENTRATES. They can grow 1000 acres of seeded low grade bud, sell the seeds to the food industry, sell the fiber to the textile industry and run the leaf and bud through whatever processes and come out with concentrates that can beat anything you could grow. I'm sure they will be able to get 99.9% thc, 99.9% cbd, 99.9% every other cannabinoid and 99.9% every terpene imaginable and make whatever combination imaginable to help your patients better than anything you could ever grow and make EXACTLY what helps the patient the best, not just what does better than the other one.
> 
> Big companies WILL take over a HUGE chunk of the market once federally legal and they will do it by making the most money on the food and textile portions because the concentrates will be so overly abundant that there won't be a huge profit to be made on them unless you're doing them on their scale.


What the fuck are you on? We're talking about gavita lamps and how well they perform and if there worth the price. I think they are. How good does your garden grow with DE technology? Tell us about your pro's and cons. A few pice would be sweet. Thanks.


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## redi jedi (Aug 30, 2016)

You'll all be smoking Canadian weed in a year or two..muahaha!!


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## a mongo frog (Aug 30, 2016)

redi jedi said:


> You'll all be smoking Canadian weed in a year or two..muahaha!!


Your right too. Tillrays fucking about ready to set up shop in my neighborhood.


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## J-Icky (Aug 31, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> What the fuck are you on? We're talking about gavita lamps and how well they perform and if there worth the price. I think they are. How good does your garden grow with DE technology? Tell us about your pro's and cons. A few pice would be sweet. Thanks.


LOL you've been talking about legalizing and rec weed and big ag and suddenly i make a comment and you jump on the OP like thats whats been talked about. So please tell me all about gavitas and how well they do or don't do and if they're worth it and ignore the fact that most of this thread is really about people trying to say that legalization won't make the price plummet and how their small grow will produce the best and still get $3000 a lb when you will be able to get mass grown greenhouse sensi thats maybe slightly less potent and resiny for like $300 a lb or concentrates with unlimited cannabinoid and terpene combinations for a few dollars agram.

Sorry everyone that loves the $2-3000 a lb price. Prices will plummet and already are dropping with limited legalization. Once fully federal legalization hits supply will crush demand and taxes will be the only thing keeping it from being worth more than $10-20 a lb


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## Shugglet (Aug 31, 2016)

J-Icky said:


> LOL you've been talking about legalizing and rec weed and big ag and suddenly i make a comment and you jump on the OP like thats whats been talked about. So please tell me all about gavitas and how well they do or don't do and if they're worth it and ignore the fact that most of this thread is really about people trying to say that legalization won't make the price plummet and how their small grow will produce the best and still get $3000 a lb when you will be able to get mass grown greenhouse sensi thats maybe slightly less potent and resiny for like $300 a lb or concentrates with unlimited cannabinoid and terpene combinations for a few dollars agram.
> 
> Sorry everyone that loves the $2-3000 a lb price. Prices will plummet and already are dropping with limited legalization. Once fully federal legalization hits supply will crush demand and taxes will be the only thing keeping it from being worth more than $10-20 a lb


And to bring it back on topic, it will be probably ~10-20yrs easy before your price points see the light of day, so youll easily be able to pay off that shiny new Gavita long before weed prices bottom out.


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## J-Icky (Aug 31, 2016)

Shugglet said:


> And to bring it back on topic, it will be probably ~10-20yrs easy before your price points see the light of day, so youll easily be able to pay off that shiny new Gavita long before weed prices bottom out.


To be completely honest, with todays market, you could pay that light off within the first grow.

Now as for if its worth it, in my opinion, that depends on your growing style. If you're growing your plants to be bigger than 3' at harvest then I would def get a de or lec lamp. Now if you're planning on running a SOG style grow then I would honestly go with a good COB led. The COBs will give you good spectrum and coverage with multiple points of light with good efficiency but won't penetrate a deep canopy. The DE and LECs will give just as good of a spectrum with a single, but powerful and penetrating point of light but won't be as efficient 
You could get some of those high power COBs to get more penetration but to me that removes one of the best parts of cobs, the spread of light. They may end up saving you some money on a/c but honestly until there is more real world results with them I wouldn't trust that they will run cooler and keep the room cooler. with them being a tad more costly upfront it would suck to pay that much and still have to run a bunch of fans and a/c to keep the room cool when you could've saved upfront with an lec or de and still had similar operating costs.


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## a mongo frog (Aug 31, 2016)

J-Icky said:


> LOL you've been talking about legalizing and rec weed and big ag and suddenly i make a comment and you jump on the OP like thats whats been talked about. So please tell me all about gavitas and how well they do or don't do and if they're worth it and ignore the fact that most of this thread is really about people trying to say that legalization won't make the price plummet and how their small grow will produce the best and still get $3000 a lb when you will be able to get mass grown greenhouse sensi thats maybe slightly less potent and resiny for like $300 a lb or concentrates with unlimited cannabinoid and terpene combinations for a few dollars agram.
> 
> Sorry everyone that loves the $2-3000 a lb price. Prices will plummet and already are dropping with limited legalization. Once fully federal legalization hits supply will crush demand and taxes will be the only thing keeping it from being worth more than $10-20 a lb


Bro i was just stating my view. Why try to jump all over me and try to get all sexual and shit? Maybe I'm wrong about my views, who cares? I don't think your right is all, you don't think I'm right. No biggie. Honestly i don't even think California is going to get rec cannabis even passed in november. I think its going to be the same vote as last time. Barley loosing. If you seriously want to talk DE we can. I've got DE pics, lab results, tons of shit all over this site. What do you want to know? They are awesome, they run hot, foot prints are massive at 1000 watts, its over 2 pounds a light with the smallest yielding strains. Did i mention they were hot?


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## kelly1376 (Aug 31, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Bro i was just stating my view. Why try to jump all over me and try to get all sexual and shit? Maybe I'm wrong about my views, who cares? I don't think your right is all, you don't think I'm right. No biggie. Honestly i don't even think California is going to get rec cannabis even passed in november. I think its going to be the same vote as last time. Barley loosing. If you seriously want to talk DE we can. I've got DE pics, lab results, tons of shit all over this site. What do you want to know? They are awesome, they run hot, foot prints are massive at 1000 watts, its over 2 pounds a light with the smallest yielding strains. Did i mention they were hot?


I think there's a bit of misconception between gavitas and heat. Yes they do run hot but they run hot because they're putting out a TON of light, not because they're creating a ton of wasted heat. A gavita DE puts out 1.82 umols per watt that's amazing efficiency. It's about double the efficiency of any non COB blurple LED. To equal the photon output of a gavita 1000 would take 1600 watts worth of regular 400 HPS. The efficiency is nearly as good as some of the higher end Cobs and does it in a 1000 watt fixture. 800-1000 watts of COB per 5 x 5 would run hot as hell too but nobody runs that many cob watts. For what they give for ~$400 yeah I think they're definitely worth it


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## a mongo frog (Aug 31, 2016)

kelly1376 said:


> I think there's a bit of misconception between gavitas and heat.


Id have to respectfully disagree there. Hot as fuck is what i think DE's run. Plants seem to love them though. And again id have to disagree on your 25 square feet at 800-1000 with the cobs. Couple guys on here have rocked over 2 pounds with those wattages in that foot print on this site. Their veg time was super long but wheat ever. Im sure you've seen the grows. Im not qualified to talk on the cob lighting i have 750 watts of it, but i haven't ran it yet. Im going to test vs the DE though.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Aug 31, 2016)

kelly1376 said:


> I think there's a bit of misconception between gavitas and heat. Yes they do run hot but they run hot because they're putting out a TON of light, not because they're creating a ton of wasted heat. A gavita DE puts out 1.82 umols per watt that's amazing efficiency. It's about double the efficiency of any non COB blurple LED. To equal the photon output of a gavita 1000 would take 1600 watts worth of regular 400 HPS. The efficiency is nearly as good as some of the higher end Cobs and does it in a 1000 watt fixture. 800-1000 watts of COB per 5 x 5 would run hot as hell too but nobody runs that many cob watts. For what they give for ~$400 yeah I think they're definitely worth it



Yeah thats not exactly accurate. While the Gavita is a great light, that doesnt take PPFD into account which is really the only thing that matters. I run one and the heat that comes out brings the room up to 105 without AC. While the LEDs keep it at just the right spot.

For instance my 800W Cree cob puts out *4.53 umol/s/W* with losses included. And puts out 830 PPFD over the WHOLE 5x5 area. Heres the whole calculation so you have all the details.

CXB3590DB36V4000K 16 COBS @1.4A ON 1.813 PROFILE HEATSINK
25 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @10 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 831.91
Cobs power watts: 782
Total voltage forward: 558
Total lumens: 154163
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 430
Total PPF: 1947.9
PPFD based on canopy area: 838.68
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 17.2
Cob efficiency: 61.03%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 31.28
Voltage forward per cob: 34.89
Lumens per watt: 197.14
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.3in/6/0.95in
Heatsink area per inch: 100.94 cm^2
 Total heat watts: 305
umol/s/W / CRI: 4.53 / 80CRI
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $1.87
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $30.45
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $45.42
Cost per cob: $50.17
Total cobs cost: $803

So that would be twice as good as a Gavita in output and without a hotspot in the center.

Not to mention I can run it at the optimum 86 Degrees F without ever worrying about it being too hot. (thats the best growth temp for my specific PPFD, no you do not need extra CO2 for this temp) 

The different numbers are degrees in Celsius the more heat the higher the growth rate. Where the dip is at the far right is where you need CO2.


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Sep 1, 2016)

Well damn ...... Men lie women lie but numbers don't.


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## sixstring2112 (Sep 1, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Id have to respectfully disagree there. Hot as fuck is what i think DE's run. Plants seem to love them though. And again id have to disagree on your 25 square feet at 800-1000 with the cobs. Couple guys on here have rocked over 2 pounds with those wattages in that foot print on this site. Their veg time was super long but wheat ever. Im sure you've seen the grows. Im not qualified to talk on the cob lighting i have 750 watts of it, but i haven't ran it yet. Im going to test vs the DE though.


mongo your limited build pics look good and im def gunna go see if i can find some flat aluminum now lol.also if you plan to run 750w of cob next to a gavita 750 your going to be amazed at the cobs lol.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 1, 2016)

sixstring2112 said:


> mongo your limited build pics look good and im def gunna go see if i can find some flat aluminum now lol.also if you plan to run 750w of cob next to a gavita 750 your going to be amazed at the cobs lol.


Right? Im with you on that. Looks smooth and alot less drilling lol



coughphee.connoiseur said:


> Well damn ...... Men lie women lie but numbers don't.


Exactly. Thats the only reason I got into COBS... The numbers dont lie. Run them at half wattage and make them last longer... they already last at least 50,000 hours so potentially double.


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## kelly1376 (Sep 1, 2016)

> For instance my 800W Cree cob puts out *4.53 umol/s/W* with losses included.


Oh wow you're right I do stand corrected. That is an awesome light! I had no idea the Cobs efficiency had gone up that much already. I was mainly using info off this post by greengenes from last year:

Gavita double ended...

Still gavita is pretty darn efficient compared to most lights.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 1, 2016)

kelly1376 said:


> Oh wow you're right I do stand corrected. That is an awesome light! I had no idea the Cobs efficiency had gone up that much already. I was mainly using info off this post by greengenes from last year:
> 
> Gavita double ended...
> 
> Still gavita is pretty darn efficient compared to most lights.


It happens, and they are still getting more efficient still! The Gavita is only about 10% more PAR output than a normal HPS. 

Thats straight from their website. 

"*What are the benefits of Double Ended bulbs?* 

1. Double Ended HPS bulbs degrade slower than traditional single ended HPS bulbs. In fact, after 10,000 hours double ended lamps will still output approximately 90% of their original intensity. 

2. Double Ended HPS bulbs are more stable than traditional single ended HPS bulbs, and this allows them to have a *10% increase in light intensity and PAR output over traditional single ended* HPS bulbs.

3. Double Ended HPS bulbs emit more UV and IR light than traditional single ended HPS bulbs, increasing the potency and essential oils of oil producing plants."

While Im over here considering a Citi LED 058 that produces *60% More PAR Watts *at the same wattage than my current setup... 

Im Just not impressed with it.


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## kelly1376 (Sep 1, 2016)

> Heres the whole calculation so you have all the details.
> 
> CXB3590DB36V4000K 16 COBS @1.4A ON 1.813 PROFILE HEATSINK
> 25 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @10 CENTS PER KWH
> ...


After looking at that chart I'm a bit confused. Isn't total Umol is the same as PPF? So PPF/total watts = efficiency? Based on that I'm getting 2.34 umol/watt for that CXB setup.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 1, 2016)

kelly1376 said:


> After looking at that chart I'm a bit confused. Isn't total Umol is the same as PPF? So PPF/total watts = efficiency? Based on that I'm getting 2.34 umol/watt for that CXB setup.


You have to account for COB efficiency as they are more efficient while being under driven.

To my knowledge the math works out, or its a bug in the program. But this is how you get the numbers. keep in mind that this is a 5x5 area


Step 2. Next calculate (or measure) the area you wish to illuminate in square meters.

Example: For a 12 meter x 6 meter area, this = 72 sq. meters.

Step 3. Area x required PAR watts per square meter = total PAR watts required

Total PAR watts required = 85 PAR watts/sq. meter x 72 sq. meters = 6120 PAR watts

Step 4. Estimate PAR watts required at source (typically 50% higher than in step 3)

If half the light is lost in the fixture, walls, etc. twice as many PAR watts are needed from the source. If 1/3rd of the light is lost (a reasonable estimate for most cases), then 50% more PAR watts are needed from the sources (lamps) than the figure calculated in step (3).

Therefore (1.5) x 6120 =9180 PAR watts.

Step 5. Select a lamp of appropriate wattage (e.g. 400 watt, 1000 watt, etc) and calculate its PAR watt rating.

A 400 watt lamp may have 140 PAR watts, a 1000 watt lamp may have 380 (or 420) PAR watts. Higher wattages mean fewer fixtures and are therefore more economical; however they lead to greater variations in light level. Be alert for the phenomenon of photomapping where plants in areas of higher illumination grow taller than those in darker areas, essentially mapping out the irradiance contour for the area! For purposes of this example, we will select a 1000 watt lamp with 400 PAR watts.

Remember that these lamp ratings refer to initial light values, and all light sources depreciate over the life of the lamp. If you are designing to average or maintained light levels, start at 20% to 30% higher. Be sure to relamp before the depreciation reaches an unacceptable light level.


Also side note, PPF is pointless as stated before... You need to know PPFD to make sure you have an efficient spread of light... hot spots are for the weak. PPF is the same as the hot spot in the middle light trails off much faster and is this way makes the PPFD reduce as well.


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## since1991 (Sep 1, 2016)

Shugglet said:


> And to bring it back on topic, it will be probably ~10-20yrs easy before your price points see the light of day, so youll easily be able to pay off that shiny new Gavita long before weed prices bottom out.


10 to 20 years after federal legalization to hit low 3 digit pound prices???


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## Shugglet (Sep 1, 2016)

since1991 said:


> 10 to 20 years after federal legalization to hit low 3 digit pound prices???


10-20 years until fed legalization Im saying.


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## since1991 (Sep 3, 2016)

I dont think it will take 20 years from now. Hope not. And less than 10 i believe. Hell..theres no telling. Paying attention to what the mpp is doing state by state is key.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> It happens, and they are still getting more efficient still! The Gavita is only about 10% more PAR output than a normal HPS.
> 
> Thats straight from their website.
> 
> ...


LEDs have less intensity than HID lights because they have multiple sources of light instead of a single point, this is due to the inverse square law. Basically LEDs have to be hung closer to the plants which makes them have a smaller footprint. One 1000w gavita can cover a 6x4 and be hung much higher than an LED can. Not to mention COB's lack spectrum, hardly any far red and no inferred and no uv.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 3, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> LEDs have less intensity than HID lights because they have multiple sources of light instead of a single point, this is due to the inverse square law. Basically LEDs have to be hung closer to the plants which makes them have a smaller footprint. One 1000w gavita can cover a 6x4 and be hung much higher than an LED can. Not to mention COB's lack spectrum, hardly any far red and no inferred and no uv.


Once I get my par meter Ill prove that wrong. I know what Im getting in lumens between the DE I have and the COBS and the DE is lacking. Keep in minds thats 1000W compared to 800 COB. The penetration is much better on the COBs but since I scrog that doesnt really matter anyways. Name one light that can cover a 5x5 with 830PPFD at 24in at 800W and ill buy it... But you cant because there isnt one besides a DIY cobs setup.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Once I get my par meter Ill prove that wrong. I know what Im getting in lumens between the DE I have and the COBS and the DE is lacking. Keep in minds thats 1000W compared to 800 COB. The penetration is much better on the COBs but since I scrog that doesnt really matter anyways. Name one light that can cover a 5x5 with 830PPFD at 24in at 800W and ill buy it... But you cant because there isnt one besides a DIY cobs setup.


ummm 1000w hps will do higher than that not even a DE one is needed a normal 1000w hps does 940 par at 27 inches height, that's not even a DE bulb/fixture.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 3, 2016)

read this, I think it will help you a lot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law

that's shows that the stronger light source will be able to be hung higher because it has a higher initial value.
read this data sheet

http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED Components and Modules/XLamp/Data and Binning/ds CXB3590.pdf

shows a single cxb has a max lumen output of 15k lumens, a single 1000 w hps bulb has a lumen output of 155k lumens (10x more) so you can hang the single source higher since its initial value is 10 times more.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 3, 2016)

Anything past 1500 is waste(unless youre running CO2 and over 87F in the room). When you average those numbers you get 665 PPFD @27" and 1026PPFD at 15" and thats 1000 Watts. Im getting 830PPFD at 24" so.... Unless youre claiming that those extra 3in make up the difference then that means youre paying more for less light... And those look to be a 3x3 not numbers for a 5x5... thats a big difference.


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## a mongo frog (Sep 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Anything past 1500 is waste(unless youre running CO2 and over 87F in the room). When you average those numbers you get 665 PPFD @27" and 1026PPFD at 15" and thats 1000 Watts. Im getting 830PPFD at 24" so.... Unless youre claiming that those extra 3in make up the difference then that means youre paying more for less light... And those look to be a 3x3 not numbers for a 5x5... thats a big difference.


Any pics of of your side by sides you have going on?


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 3, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Any pics of of your side by sides you have going on?


Not yet, Im just vegging out some girls currently under the 4000Ks and once I have some good clones made Ill start running it. Im also waiting for my PAR meter to get here... They sent it on the back of a snail I swear...


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## sixstring2112 (Sep 3, 2016)

Hey megakillerman,what meter did you end up with? Im seriously looking at the apogee meters,just not sure which one to get.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 3, 2016)

sixstring2112 said:


> Hey megakillerman,what meter did you end up with? Im seriously looking at the apogee meters,just not sure which one to get.


Shoot I really dont see a huge difference in them performance wise. The video here makes them look like they read the same way give or take how much side light they take in.





Then theres this video... Where a guy uses the sensor of a good one with the display of a multi-meter... and it works just as good for like less than $100


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## Yodaweed (Sep 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Anything past 1500 is waste(unless youre running CO2 and over 87F in the room). When you average those numbers you get 665 PPFD @27" and 1026PPFD at 15" and thats 1000 Watts. Im getting 830PPFD at 24" so.... Unless youre claiming that those extra 3in make up the difference then that means youre paying more for less light... And those look to be a 3x3 not numbers for a 5x5... thats a big difference.


That's for a 5x5 and that's full spectrum with IR , and lots of FAR RED, something COBs lack not to mention that's a SINGLE ENDED 1000w HPS , DE lights are even higher PAR numbers.


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## sixstring2112 (Sep 3, 2016)

Shit even a gavita 750 has like 1600 oo ooooooomoles


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## sixstring2112 (Sep 3, 2016)

@MeGaKiLlErMaN I'll have to watch the video later,im on my phone in the middle of nowhere lol


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 3, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> That's for a 5x5 and that's full spectrum with IR , and lots of FAR RED, something COBs lack not to mention that's a SINGLE ENDED 1000w HPS , DE lights are even higher PAR numbers.



Alright I really not sure where you're getting these "facts" from.... But the standard of measurement is 4x4 and 3x3... Mostly 4x4.

During an unbiased test of all the different High end DE HPS systems they used a *4x4 standard*. And according to that the Gavida Pro 
1000W DE system puts out a solid...

*620 PPFD at 24" in a 4x4*

Growers House source:
http://growershouse.com/images/DE_TEST_INFOGRAPHIC.pdf

The sites themselves only ever advertise a 10% increase in PAR from single ended on their site.

You can add far red but its really not that important as many growers have demonstrated. However a red signal does help start flowering sooner. It is true that they do not have IR but when you're pulling 1.2G/W-1.9G/W then who cares? IR does help produce THC since the crystals that they make are like a sun screen for the plant and it does adjust as the IR does... but it produces it naturally anyways making that argument mute.

Again Ill back it up even more once I have my PAR meter.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Alright I really not sure where you're getting these "facts" from.... But the standard of measurement is 4x4 and 3x3... Mostly 4x4.
> 
> During an unbiased test of all the different High end DE HPS systems they used a *4x4 standard*. And according to that the Gavida Pro
> 1000W DE system puts out a solid...
> ...


Duel Ended Gavitas cover a 6x4, so you cut off a good 8 squared feet of coverage :\


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## a mongo frog (Sep 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> During an unbiased test of all the different High end DE HPS systems they used a *4x4 standard*. And according to that the Gavida Pro
> 1000W DE system puts out a solid...
> 
> *620 PPFD at 24" in a 4x4*


Thats crazy right? Cuz no one is going to hold their DE at 24 inches. I never understood these ppfd numbers. I mean who tell who whats enough ppfd to grow dank shit and who determines dank shit out side of lab results. Ill get some bull shit but i prefer lumens for humans!!!!!


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 3, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> Duel Ended Gavitas cover a 6x4, so you cut off a good 8 squared feet of coverage :\


If the coverage is less than 400 PPF at those edges its better to have it in a 4x4... When you look at the spread and when its at higher heights it trails off even more.



a mongo frog said:


> Thats crazy right? Cuz no one is going to hold there DE at 24 inches. I never understood these ppfd numbers. I mean who tell who whats enough ppfd to grow dank shit and who determines dank shit out side of lab results. Ill get some bull shit but i prefer lumens for humans!!!!!


Yeah its not bad... but for the wattage and price point its not good. I run mine at 3 ft because it works for me. but I also have panda film everywhere so only minor losses... To PPFD is average PPF in what ever area youre running ans is the most important think to know for light output levels (Not PPF) When you know your PPFD you know exactly how efficient your plants are photosynthesizing which can help you lock in everything.

My Point Im saying that 800Watts puts out 838PPFD (in a 5x5)with diyleds.

[Which really isnt fair because If I ran this in a 4x4 I would have (1310.44PPFD double for less watts)]

and 1000W puts out 640PPFD ( in a 4x4) in less area.

Seems like a no brainier to me. Not even LECs are as efficient.


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## a mongo frog (Sep 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> 1000W puts out 640PPFD ( in a 4x4)


At what height though? Like most of us run our SE's at 20 inches or less.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 3, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> At what height though? Like most of us run our SE's at 20 inches or less.


at 24" as stated above.


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## a mongo frog (Sep 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> If the coverage is less than 400 PPF at those edges its better to have it in a 4x4... When you look at the spread and when its at higher heights it trails off even more.


Wait, whats your foot print then with DE?


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 3, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Wait, whats your foot print then with DE?


My original was 3 ft above and I got .8G/ room W. I'll be adjusting once I get my par meter most likely.


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## sixstring2112 (Sep 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> My original was 3 ft above and I got .8G/ room W. I'll be adjusting once I get my par meter most likely.


So i dont think you ever said which meter you are getting


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 3, 2016)

sixstring2112 said:


> So i dont think you ever said which meter you are getting


The cheapest one I could. It's the hydrofarms one with the wide sensor. It works for what I need. And it's margin of error isn't that big


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## Yodaweed (Sep 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> If the coverage is less than 400 PPF at those edges its better to have it in a 4x4... When you look at the spread and when its at higher heights it trails off even more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I been planning to do a DIY Citizen COB rig , if you got some info on good building techniques that would be cool I was thinking 4 of the clu048-1818 with one MeanWell HLG-185H-48A Driver
https://cobkits.com/product/meanwell-hlg-185h-48a-driver/
but honestly I have some area 51 leds and a nice all red with cob led and until they die I'm gonna run with them, they are about the equiv of a 600w hps but honestly I like my 600w hps better I been running two right now in a 5x10 but I usually run 3 600w in my 5x10 during winter, I get a good haul from the leds but honestly I think the hps is better. I really need to do a DIY cob light and a legit comparison to my 600w hps grow.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 3, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> I been planning to do a DIY Citizen COB rig , if you got some info on good building techniques that would be cool I was thinking 4 of the clu048-1818 with one MeanWell HLG-185H-48A Driver
> https://cobkits.com/product/meanwell-hlg-185h-48a-driver/
> but honestly I have some area 51 leds and a nice all red with cob led and until they die I'm gonna run with them, they are about the equiv of a 600w hps but honestly I like my 600w hps better I been running two right now in a 5x10 but I usually run 3 600w in my 5x10 during winter, I get a good haul from the leds but honestly I think the hps is better. I really need to do a DIY cob light and a legit comparison to my 600w hps grow.


My only suggestion is to go passive on the cooling for them, northerngrowlights has some good prices and setups. But I would stay away from the active stuff. To get you better help on the subject I would suggest typing out all your requirements over in the LED section so you have all the people that know more than me helping!


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## kelly1376 (Sep 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> The cheapest one I could. It's the hydrofarms one with the wide sensor. It works for what I need. And it's margin of error isn't that big


I have that same unit. It seems to do the job well enough


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## Yodaweed (Sep 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> My only suggestion is to go passive on the cooling for them, northerngrowlights has some good prices and setups. But I would stay away from the active stuff. To get you better help on the subject I would suggest typing out all your requirements over in the LED section so you have all the people that know more than me helping!


I like the pin heat sinks pretty cool feature, I like these ones https://cobkits.com/product/mechatronics-111mm-pin-fin-heat-sink-for-cree-citizen-vero/ for the citizens .


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## kelly1376 (Sep 3, 2016)

Curious if any of you'll have used the gavita small room reflector? It's supposedly a lot better for even PPFD in small areas. Their regular reflector is made for hanging at high heights in big rooms with lots of overlap with other lights. Here are a couple of profiles they have for their small room reflector for use in conjunction with their mammoth G-1 tent with the DE 1000 and 750. The tent is 3'9 x 5'10 x 7'11 tall


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## Uberknot (Sep 3, 2016)

I am going to say a 4 cob light is better.

For sure 8 of them 

I think that is way to much money for a light bulb that is going to lose its ability much sooner.


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## a mongo frog (Sep 3, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> I am going to say a 4 cob light is better.
> 
> For sure 8 of them
> 
> I think that is way to much money for a light bulb that is going to lose its ability much sooner.


When you say better, what does that mean? A 4 or an 8 cob light is better then a DE light? Whats better about it?


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## Uberknot (Sep 3, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> When you say better, what does that mean? A 4 or an 8 cob light is better then a DE light? Whats better about it?



I cannot see buying something that is going to decrease at a rapid rate in quality when I use it.

Pretty much everything If you pump the same watts through cobs you will blow that lamp out of the water.

ON top of that they will last much much longer and be more efficient.

We won't even get into heat and wasted light...lol.


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## a mongo frog (Sep 4, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> Pretty much everything If you pump the same watts through cobs you will blow that lamp out of the water.


You mean your going to produce better buds? Thats not even true bro. And in the very end thats why we garden. Your not aloud to have a 4 chip fixture and a couple 3 week old plants and talk about how your going to blow a DE out of the water.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> When you say better, what does that mean? A 4 or an 8 cob light is better then a DE light? Whats better about it?


Same quality but they are denser and weigh more. You grow more I've not seen less than 1.2 per watt



kelly1376 said:


> Curious if any of you'll have used the gavita small room reflector? It's supposedly a lot better for even PPFD in small areas. Their regular reflector is made for hanging at high heights in big rooms with lots of overlap with other lights. Here are a couple of profiles they have for their small room reflector for use in conjunction with their mammoth G-1 tent with the DE 1000 and 750. The tent is 3'9 x 5'10 x 7'11 tall
> 
> View attachment 3772542 View attachment 3772543


So you would still be happy paying more for less? 1000W for 808PPFD. That's 30 less than an LED setup running at 800W. If you enjoy paying for electricity bills Go for it. Also the reflectors were mentioned in the pdf of par output.. You get PPFD by adding up all the PPF marks and then dividing by that number.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> I am going to say a 4 cob light is better.
> 
> For sure 8 of them
> 
> I think that is way to much money for a light bulb that is going to lose its ability much sooner.


An 8 cob could... Put out more light in a 4x4 than a Gavida and be more efficient, but you would have to drive them pretty hard. That would lead to hot spots. You could even water cool them! but if you want to see that look in the LED section

To use the Calculators you need to have Java installed on your computer and extract both

*CXB3590DB36V4000K 8 COBS @2.1A *ON 1.813 PROFILE HEATSINK
* 16 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER* @13 CENTS PER KWH
* Total power watts at the wall: 642.55*
Cobs power watts: 604
Total voltage forward: 288
Total lumens: 105066
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 293
Total PPF: 1327.29
*PPFD based on canopy area: 892.93*
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 18.31
Cob efficiency: *53.85%*
Power watts per sq.ft.: 37.75
Voltage forward per cob: 35.97
Lumens per watt: 173.95
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.3in/6/0.95in
Heatsink area per inch: 100.94 cm^2
Total heat watts: 279
umol/s/W / CRI: 4.53 / 70CRI
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 332 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 111 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $1.37
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $30.57
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $45.61
Cost per cob: $50.17
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $0.66
Total cobs cost: $401

Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $219
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $73


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## kelly1376 (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Same quality but they are denser and weigh more. You grow more I've not seen less than 1.2 per watt
> 
> 
> 
> So you would still be happy paying more for less? 1000W for 808PPFD. That's 30 less than an LED setup running at 800W. If you enjoy paying for electricity bills Go for it. Also the reflectors were mentioned in the pdf of par output.. You get PPFD by adding up all the PPF marks and then dividing by that number.


I can see advantages of both. For growing bigger plants if you can get an even distribution over your area with a point source light from 3 feet away it might be worth the 200 extra watts due to better penetration. However, I think even distribution in most cases is severely under-rated. Ive seen a couple of grow logs people getting 3 pounds per light from Fluence spydrx plus. The Spydr is the ultimate in even distribution. ~900 even PPFD over a 4 x 4 area - but only 6-8 inches away from the canopy. One guy ran one head to head against a gavita growing trees. The Spydr was ahead early on but as the plants got bigger the gavitas better penetration showed up big time.

So if growing trees I'd go with the gavita. In most cases though I think more light sources are better. The way people are putting cobs together running 1 cob per 1 or 2 square feet I think if you put any light type together like that you're gonna get awesome results because the distribution is so much better than traditional lighting. I know some of these big warehouses are switching out 1000 HPS with 3 x 315 CMH. They're getting better results but I have to wonder how much of that is due to better distribution of light (from more light sources over a given area) and not necessarily better light source.


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## Uberknot (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> An 8 cob could... Put out more light in a 4x4 than a Gavida and be more efficient, but you would have to drive them pretty hard. That would lead to hot spots. You could even water cool them! but if you want to see that look in the LED section
> 
> To use the Calculators you need to have Java installed on your computer and extract both
> 
> ...


I wonder how 4 of the new 200 watt cree's will do?  was that calculation with any lenses or reflectors?
And I believe Cob prices are dropping pretty fast atm. See them selling for less than $50 easy.


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## a mongo frog (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> An 8 cob could... Put out more light in a 4x4 than a Gavida and be more efficient, but you would have to drive them pretty hard. That would lead to hot spots. You could even water cool them! but if you want to see that look in the LED section
> 
> To use the Calculators you need to have Java installed on your computer and extract both
> 
> ...


Not sure what your getting at, but no one is running their DE's in a 4x4 foot print. I mean all your calculations i guess to most look real good and their are a few guys running those numbers here on this site. I don't think their hitting the yields your talking about. Their bad ass gardeners but their not all paper work and math. They know "hey i got a garden on my hands, how am i going to get there?" So much you left out that would get any lamp to do what your suggesting. Those are just my thoughts I dig the conversation you doing in here, thanks.


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## genuity (Sep 4, 2016)

kelly1376 said:


> I can see advantages of both. For growing bigger plants if you can get an even distribution over your area with a point source light from 3 feet away it might be worth the 200 extra watts due to better penetration. However, I think even distribution in most cases is severely under-rated. Ive seen a couple of grow logs people getting 3 pounds per light from Fluence spydrx plus. The Spydr is the ultimate in even distribution. ~900 even PPFD over a 4 x 4 area - but only 6-8 inches away from the canopy. One guy ran one head to head against a gavita growing trees. The Spydr was ahead early on but as the plants got bigger the gavitas better penetration showed up big time.
> 
> So if growing trees I'd go with the gavita. In most cases though I think more light sources are better. The way people are putting cobs together running 1 cob per 1 or 2 square feet I think if you put any light type together like that you're gonna get awesome results because the distribution is so much better than traditional lighting. I know some of these big warehouses are switching out 1000 HPS with 3 x 315 CMH. They're getting better results but I have to wonder how much of that is due to better distribution of light (from more light sources over a given area) and not necessarily better light source.


They are a better light source + the distribution...315lec 
 
1 hood has DE 630 lec & the other has 1000 DE dimmed to 600...
Both cover a 5x6 or 4x6 perfect...


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Yeah but


genuity said:


> They are a better light source + the distribution...315lec
> View attachment 3772736
> 1 hood has DE 630 lec & the other has 1000 DE dimmed to 600...
> Both cover a 5x6 or 4x6 perfect...


it takes so many to cover an area but they do put out good par about the same as cobs... But only for a 2.5x2.5ft area. Not a good usage of money seeing how much they are.



a mongo frog said:


> Not sure what your getting at, but no one is running their DE's in a 4x4 foot print. I mean all your calculations i guess to most look real good and their are a few guys running those numbers here on this site. I don't think their hitting the yields your talking about. Their bad ass gardeners but their not all paper work and math. They know "hey i got a garden on my hands, how am i going to get there?" So much you left out that would get any lamp to do what your suggesting. Those are just my thoughts I dig the conversation you doing in here, thanks.


Agreed, but it's also about how much you want to pay for it per month, if someone can afford a Gaveda they can afford a DIY cob. And it will cost less monthly by a good deal including cooling.IMO I think the penetration mindsets goes away when people remove the leaves at the bottom because 
Cobs can penetrate... Monos not so much.


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## kelly1376 (Sep 4, 2016)

genuity said:


> They are a better light source + the distribution...315lec
> View attachment 3772736
> 1 hood has DE 630 lec & the other has 1000 DE dimmed to 600...
> Both cover a 5x6 or 4x6 perfect...


Nice setup! Do you notice better results with the plants under the 630? This guy over on IC did some tests on the phantom and cycloptics CMH hoods and they look pretty impressive in a 3 x 3 for 315 watts: 

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=327419

Also are you using the gavita 600/750 DE ballast? I hear that 630 can be used with gavita 600 but growers house says it's incompatible.


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## genuity (Sep 4, 2016)

2 315 lec over a 7x3.5.....I was going to add another one in the middle, but they look to be doing ok..

& them new 630 DE will run just fine on galaxy ballast & the galaxy grow amp..
I'm definitely flipping my lights out...badass bulbs,very well built.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Yeah but


genuity said:


> They are a better light source + the distribution...315lec
> View attachment 3772736
> 1 hood has DE 630 lec & the other has 1000 DE dimmed to 600...
> Both cover a 5x6 or 4x6 perfect...


it takes so many to cover an area but they do put out good par about the same as cobs...

But only for a 2.5x2.5ft area per 315LEC

Not a good usage of money seeing how much they are.



a mongo frog said:


> Not sure what your getting at, but no one is running their DE's in a 4x4 foot print. I mean all your calculations i guess to most look real good and their are a few guys running those numbers here on this site. I don't think their hitting the yields your talking about. Their bad ass gardeners but their not all paper work and math. They know "hey i got a garden on my hands, how am i going to get there?" So much you left out that would get any lamp to do what your suggesting. Those are just my thoughts I dig the conversation you doing in here, thanks.


Agreed, but it's also about how much you want to pay for it per month, if someone can afford a Gaveda they can afford a DIY cob. And it will cost less monthly by a good deal including cooling.IMO I think the penetration mindsets goes away when people remove the leaves at the bottom because 
Cobs can penetrate... Monos not so much.


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## genuity (Sep 4, 2016)

kelly1376 said:


> Nice setup! Do you notice better results with the plants under the 630? This guy over on IC did some tests on the phantom and cycloptics CMH hoods and they look pretty impressive in a 3 x 3 for 315 watts:
> 
> https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=327419
> 
> Also are you using the gavita 600/750 DE ballast? I hear that 630 can be used with gavita 600 but growers house says it's incompatible.


First run with the 630,but been running the 315's for a bit..

With the 315lec, I was able to see more colors come out in the plants...+1
With the 315lec,I was able to get a more robust smelling plants...+1
With multiple 315lec,the coverage expansion was great (obviously)..+1

I can only imagine the 600 DE lec will do the same...


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## a mongo frog (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> IMO I think the penetration mindsets goes away when people remove the leaves at the bottom because
> Cobs can penetrate...


From the looks of the journals I agree, I mean look at what the sixstrings is fucking doing!!!! Dudes growing what looks to be fucking monsters under cobs.


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## Uberknot (Sep 4, 2016)

Anyhow what I see here mostly is more power consumption for less light..if that floats yer boat more " power " to ya!


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## sixstring2112 (Sep 4, 2016)

I think the whole penetration argument is a wash because gavitas need to be hung high and cobs can be very close to the canopy. I can say in my garden im seeing much more light on the floor under the cob plants then i see under my other plants.i thought it might be from the whiter color but i think after taking some readings with my lux meter its just brighter because theres more points of light


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## Uberknot (Sep 4, 2016)

sixstring2112 said:


> I think the whole penetration argument is a wash because gavitas need to be hung high and cobs can be very close to the canopy. I can say in my garden im seeing much more light on the floor under the cob plants then i see under my other plants.i thought it might be from the whiter color but i think after taking some readings with my lux meter its just brighter because theres more points of light



I know I get about 78,000 lux at 1750 mA (210w) 24 inches with my 4 cob light....that's pretty good I think.

of course I don't run it that high in such a small space.

at 875 mA it's around 38,000 lux (105w)


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## a mongo frog (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> but it's also about how much you want to pay for it per month, if someone can afford a Gaveda they can afford a DIY cob.


Pay for what per month? I just don't get the your better then me talk because one pay less electricity, hahaha........ I never understood, especially when at any given moment any lamp can out yield any lamp. Who knows what the fuck happens during someones grow.


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## a mongo frog (Sep 4, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> Anyhow what I see here mostly is more power consumption for less light..if that floats yer boat more " power " to ya!


Like this ^^^^^^. This guys better then everyone else and is willing to say like some would say smart ass "more power to ya" Like were a bunch of idiot fucks who run tons of DE's and SE's and soon to be cob kits cuz we are broke dumb fucks...... I just never understood that kind of better then you type thinking.


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## Uberknot (Sep 4, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Like this ^^^^^^. This guys better then everyone else and is willing to say like some would say smart ass "more power to ya" Like were a bunch of idiot fucks who run tons of DE's and SE's and soon to be cob kits cuz we are broke dumb fucks...... I just never understood that kind of better then you type thinking.


In the end COB's will take over....they are just that good.in many ways.

Less power for more is better anyways you look at it.


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## sixstring2112 (Sep 4, 2016)

Just when everyone thought the hps bulb could not be any better gavita came along with de tech (or phillips)
Im betting since they have unlimited research money now we will see another jump in tech with de lamps very soon


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## genuity (Sep 4, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> In the end COB's will take over....they are just that good.in many ways.
> 
> Less power for more is better anyways you look at it.


Well I do not plan to be growing that long-term.....so before the end (whatever that is)


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Pay for what per month? I just don't get the your better then me talk because one pay less electricity, hahaha........ I never understood, especially when at any given moment any lamp can out yield any lamp. Who knows what the fuck happens during someones grow.


Well it's all about how much you want to pay for the same output bro. I don't think I'm better I think I'm giving proper information layer out as plainly as possible. Take AC and the lack of efficiency and there's wasted money per month.


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## a mongo frog (Sep 4, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> In the end COB's will take over....they are just that good.in many ways.
> 
> Less power for more is better anyways you look at it.


Take over what?


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Pay for what per month? I just don't get the your better then me talk because one pay less electricity, hahaha........ I never understood, especially when at any given moment any lamp can out yield any lamp. Who knows what the fuck happens during someones grow.


Well it's all about how much you want to pay for the same output bro. I don't think I'm better I think I'm giving proper information layer out as plainly as possible. Take AC and the lack of efficiency and there's wasted money per month.


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## genuity (Sep 4, 2016)

sixstring2112 said:


> Just when everyone thought the hps bulb could not be any better gavita came along with de tech (or phillips)
> Im betting since they have unlimited research money now we will see another jump in tech with de lamps very soon


All I need is a pre-made COB drone,to fit over my AC/DE hoods (that cost around $250-300)


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## Uberknot (Sep 4, 2016)

This shows it's pretty good stuff those COB's from @Growmau5

I am sure as people dail them in more and more it will be even better.


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## Uberknot (Sep 4, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Take over what?



Growing plants from the biggest industry to the small home grower.

From all I have studied over the last 5 months there is no question in my mind.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> This shows it's pretty good stuff those COB's from @Growmau5
> 
> I am sure as people dail them in more and more it will be even better.


Solid video only issue I have is he kinda grew some crappy weed, he even says in it mid shelf quality  I think its due to the lack of spectrum in the lights he used, it made buds but not really good quality ones.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

genuity said:


> View attachment 3772752
> 2 315 lec over a 7x3.5.....I was going to add another one in the middle, but they look to be doing ok..
> 
> & them new 630 DE will run just fine on galaxy ballast & the galaxy grow amp..
> I'm definitely flipping my lights out...badass bulbs,very well built.


wait what? I can run a DE light in my galaxy grow amp 600w ballast?


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## sixstring2112 (Sep 4, 2016)

If cobs weren't so damn expensive everyone would already be using them.its the price that sways most people towards hid lighting


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## genuity (Sep 4, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> wait what? I can run a DE light in my galaxy grow amp 600w ballast?


Ushio hilux gro bulb(@1000 setting down to 600) & gavita pro(only turbo charge setting)

Not sure about any other bulbs.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

genuity said:


> Ushio hilux gro bulb(@1000 setting down to 600) & gavita pro(only turbo charge setting)
> 
> Not sure about any other bulbs.


http://hydrobuilder.com/solis-tek-high-pressure-sodium-de-lamp-600w.html
would this work?


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## kelly1376 (Sep 4, 2016)

sixstring2112 said:


> Just when everyone thought the hps bulb could not be any better gavita came along with de tech (or phillips)
> Im betting since they have unlimited research money now we will see another jump in tech with de lamps very soon


I think likely we'll see them be distributed more to major big box outlets and the price come down substantially. Gavitas for ~$250 at home depot...that sorta thing. Generally when a small niche company gets taken over by a bigger broader company the quality doesn't improve but the distribution base gets wider and price comes down. Who knows though it would be nice if they continued advancing their tech in the process. Another problem I see with cobs is all the builders and users are most interested in chasing new tech than improving price points on existing modules. I believe the Cree that came out before the 3590 (CXB 3070?) or Vero 29 can be put together quite cheap and would still work great but everyone wants the new latest and greatest. Now everyone is about to move on from the 3590s and start chasing the Citizen 1825s. Give it a year and 3590s will be dirt cheap but nobody will want them and few will be building them.


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## sixstring2112 (Sep 4, 2016)

Im hopeful gavita will make a 750w de fixture with 4 or 6 high power cobs on the perimeter for some kind of crazy 1250w hybrid fixture.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

Anyone know about the solis tek 600w DE bulbs in a 600w galaxy grow amp ballast?


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## Uberknot (Sep 4, 2016)

sixstring2112 said:


> If cobs weren't so damn expensive everyone would already be using them.its the price that sways most people towards hid lighting



It's coming down and they are getting better tech as well.  the savings in electric and the longevity are worth it imho.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> Solid video only issue I have is he kinda grew some crappy weed, he even says in it mid shelf quality  I think its due to the lack of spectrum in the lights he used, it made buds but not really good quality ones.


Upper mid shelf isn't crap that's at least 18%thc content which just means it's standard stuff. The spectrum has already been proven. IR and UV have minimal effects.. But if you insist on having it there are bulbs that specifically put out both.. But I just haven't seen anything that points to that driving quality.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Upper mid shelf isn't crap that's at least 18%thc content which just means it's standard stuff. The spectrum has already been proven. IR and UV have minimal effects.. But if you insist on having it there are bulbs that specifically put out both.. But I just haven't seen anything that points to that driving quality.


18% is almost half the THC I am looking for, i'm trying to hit 30% every run, gotta have the genetics , lights and environment to do that and if you think UV-B light hasn't been proven you need to just go away because you don't know what you are talking about it can be as much as a 10% increase in tric production. IR definitely has a big effect on bud weight and leaf temperature, I feel like I am speaking to someone who doesn't know anything about growing and is just trying to rationalize using lower quality lights to grow lower quality weed.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> It's coming down and they are getting better tech as well.  the savings in electric and the longevity are worth it imho.


True that. When you have good quality that's rated for 10,000 Hours at 95% output that's good. But the real good stuff is when you run at 50% you should be running well over 60,000 hours before any degradation.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> 18% is almost half the THC I am looking for, i'm trying to hit 30% every run, gotta have the genetics , lights and environment to do that and if you think UV-B light hasn't been proven you need to just go away because you don't know what you are talking about it can be as much as a 10% increase in tric production. IR definitely has a big effect on bud weight and leaf temperature, I feel like I am speaking to someone who doesn't know anything about growing and is just trying to rationalize using lower quality lights to grow lower quality weed.


What strain is pushing 30%? I have one that will get me 28% and I thought that was high. Like I said mid isn't crap it's just not for you. Some people prefer other things than just the effect. I'm saying that the results might not be as big of a real as you think, like you said light is light it comes down to how good you can grow. I'll just use a rosin press if I want something more.

To me a 10% increase for a 40% increase in needed Ac isn't worth it.


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## augusto1 (Sep 4, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> Solid video only issue I have is he kinda grew some crappy weed, he even says in it mid shelf quality  I think its due to the lack of spectrum in the lights he used, it made buds but not really good quality ones.


I would like to see pictures of the weed you have grown, any link available? Thanks In Avance.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> What strain is pushing 30%? I have one that will get me 28% and I thought that was high. Like I said mid isn't crap it's just not for you. Some people prefer other things than just the effect. I'm saying that the results might not be as big of a real as you think, like you said light is light it comes down to how good you can grow.
> 
> To me a 10% increase for a 40% increase in needed Ac isn't worth it.


There's a lot of strains that can hit 30% or come very close (high 20%'s ) my golden goat got tested at 32% at the dispensary I bought it from. My tangie cut is actually frostier than my golden goat and I ran gorilla glue 4 last year that definitely was around 30% it was super frosty.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

augusto1 said:


> I would like to see pictures of the weed you have grown, any link available? Thanks In Avance.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> There's a lot of strains that can hit 30% or come very close (high 20%'s ) my golden goat got tested at 32% at the dispensary I bought it from. My tangie cut is actually frostier than my golden goat and I ran gorilla glue 4 last year that definitely was around 30% it was super frosty.


Thanks for the info any chance you're around Michigan? I wouldn't mind some cuts of the goat or the tangie... I'll trade with some 28% yielding Pineapple Express and Girl Scout cookies.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Thanks for the info any chance you're around Michigan? I wouldn't mind some cuts of the goat or the tangie... I'll trade with some 28% yielding Pineapple Express and Girl Scout cookies.


I live in Colorado  , that pineapple express is a huge yielder I know someone that been running it a while.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> I live in Colorado  , that pineapple express is a huge yielder I know someone that been running it a while.


Yeah that's what the guy told me, I plan on taking cuts and getting the best possible from each (and gg#4) for my side by side by side.(HPSvsDEHPSvsCOBs) might just make it all in a 4x4 to make it equal but idk since I have the cobs in a 5x5 currently


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Yeah that's what the guy told me, I plan on taking cuts and getting the best possible from each (and gg#4) for my side by side by side.(HPSvsDEHPSvsCOBs) might just make it all in a 4x4 to make it equal but idk since I have the cobs in a 5x5 currently


I been trying to do a side by side forever but I never get around to it.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> I been trying to do a side by side forever but I never get around to it.


Shoot I'm set up and ready to go on it lol just need some solid cuts all the way around to make it fair. I have 3/4 currently


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Shoot I'm set up and ready to go on it lol just need some solid cuts all the way around to make it fair. I have 3/4 currently


Very nice grow room bro, super clean, the only thing I can see is theres no way you can do a side by side there, way too much light spillage. You need barriers between lights to make it a good comparison.


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## a mongo frog (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> I have one that will get me 28%


Can you show us a pic of that bud. I got one thats almost 28% But not quite. What was your 28% grown under?


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Can you show us a pic of that bud. I got one thats almost 28% But not quite. What was your 28% grown under?


I had test results shown to me by the guy who I got the clone from... Quite a legit guy. He's working on some solid purples for me currently.



Yodaweed said:


> Very nice grow room bro, super clean, the only thing I can see is theres no way you can do a side by side there, way too much light spillage. You need barriers between lights to make it a good comparison.


I know I only have the DE there for now I have a special spot for it to maximize wall reflections. And I'll have some more panda film for box them in but let air flow


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> I had test results shown to me by the guy who I got the clone from... Quite a legit guy. He's working on some solid purples for me currently.
> 
> 
> 
> I know I only have the DE there for now I have a special spot for it to maximize wall reflections. And I'll have some more panda film for box them in but let air flow


I know one place that got a cut that pretty much always is in the low 30% range, cut is mob boss , this is the dispensary https://weedmaps.com/dispensaries/the-healing-canna#/menu

Unfortunately they only sell clones of their bottom shelf, I grew a few and they were all decent but not worth running again.


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## doniawon (Sep 4, 2016)

Yoda is that first pic mob boss? Ur pictured buds look like high 20 to 30 percent range easy.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> Very nice grow room bro, super clean, the only thing I can see is theres no way you can do a side by side there, way too much light spillage. You need barriers between lights to make it a good comparison.


I just realized that the photo I posted only had 2 of the 4 sets of cobs on... so 400W! good stuff.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

doniawon said:


> Yoda is that first pic mob boss? Ur pictured buds look like high 20 to 30 percent range easy.


That's Delicious Seeds Critical Sensi Star, it was amazing flavor wise and yield but I had to retire because it liked to hermie.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Something else to consider.. A DE HPS total output of UVA and UVB is less than .5% of its output according to the spectrum graph. So you get 5W total... so 2.5W roughly of UVB which is the important one.

Im only bringing this up because even if you ran a Gavita you should still supplement with something like this.
http://www.htgsupply.com/products/agromax-pure-uv-t5-bulb-4-foot

Just something that popped into my head.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Something else to consider.. A DE HPS total output of UVA and UVB is less than .5% of its output according to the spectrum graph. So you get 5W total... so 2.5W roughly of UVB which is the important one.
> 
> Im only bringing this up because even if you ran a Gavita you should still supplement with something like this.
> http://www.htgsupply.com/products/agromax-pure-uv-t5-bulb-4-foot
> ...


I don't agree, gavitas don't need supplementation if you put those T5's in your grow room its just gonna block the light from the gavitas since T5s are low intensity and need to be close to the plants, only alterative is to run them as a side light which wont help a canopy in the least bit. Really they are a waste of electricity and space.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> I don't agree, gavitas don't need supplementation if you put those T5's in your grow room its just gonna block the light from the gavitas since T5s are low intensity and need to be close to the plants, only alterative is to run them as a side light which wont help a canopy in the least bit. Really they are a waste of electricity and space.


I would agree but since all the light that comes out of that is PURE UV it must me further away and cant be treated as a standard light. This light would give you a sunburn in less than 10 mins of direct contact. That said I cant imagine that 2.5W can be considered using any at all over a and given grow space 4x4-6x5.

5W just wont make any difference.
54W Just might make one.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> I would agree but since all the light that comes out of that is PURE UV it must me further away and cant be treated as a standard light. This light would give you a sunburn in less than 10 mins of direct contact. That said I cant imagine that 2.5W can be considered using any at all over a and given grow space 4x4-6x5.
> 
> 5W just wont make any difference.
> 54W Just might make one.


Yea I just don't like T5's as supplemental lights, I feel they work better as a stand alone light during veg but honestly not a very good flowering light.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> Yea I just don't like T5's as supplemental lights, I feel they work better as a stand alone light during veg but honestly not a very good flowering light.


I would never use one for either.. but like I said its not the same light... Its UV ONLY so thats why its able to be so far away. The only reason anyone would use this light is for a flowering situation because UVB is no good in veg only flowering. Check out the specs.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> I would never use one for either.. but like I said its not the same light... Its UV ONLY so thats why its able to be so far away. The only reason anyone would use this light is for a flowering situation because UVB is no good in veg only flowering. Check out the specs.


Oh I know about those lights I have used them, just not a fan of T5's for supplemental lights. They work great for veg lights tho, produce very green plants I used to use one until the ballast fried from over use. They are great lights for cloning plants too probably the best of all the lights I ever used to clone, hps probably is the worst I ever used with success.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> Oh I know about those lights I have used them, just not a fan of T5's for supplemental lights. They work great for veg lights tho, produce very green plants I used to use one until the ballast fried from over use. They are great lights for cloning plants too probably the best of all the lights I ever used to clone, hps probably is the worst I ever used with success.


This isnt a normal t5... Im pretty sure youre trolling me now since I found you on the OP that I found this.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> This isnt a normal t5... Im pretty sure youre trolling me now since I found you on the OP that I found this.


I'm not trolling , I have used T5's a lot , there's other ways to get UV light than one of those . My LED room uses one of these. And these in my HID room http://www.eyehortilux.com/products/specific/600w-Hortilux-Blue


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> I'm not trolling , I have used T5's a lot , there's other ways to get UV light than one of those . My LED room uses one of these. And these in my HID room http://www.eyehortilux.com/products/specific/600w-Hortilux-Blue


Ok I was thinking that you were thinking that they were normal T5s so thats cleared up. But after looking at the spectra graph for HPS they put out a bit more but 430nm and 450nm is what you want and it seems to skimp on those compared to the rest of the graph. 430 (UVA) gets alot where as the UVB not so much. 

MH is better than HPS by a bit but still more output from a single T5 according to GE. I would say maybe 8% output of the light at best. So a 1000W MH puts out 5W of UVA and 3W of UVB.
http://www.gelighting.com/LightingWeb/br/images/Metal_Halide_Multi_Vapor_Lamps_Data_sheet_EN_tcm388-12802.pdf


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Ok I was thinking that you were thinking that they were normal T5s so thats cleared up. But after looking at the spectra graph for HPS they put out a bit more but 430nm and 450nm is what you want and it seems to skimp on those compared to the rest of the graph. 430 (UVA) gets alot where as the UVB not so much.
> 
> MH is better than HPS by a bit but still more output from a single T5 according to GE. I would say maybe 8% output of the light at best. So a 1000W MH puts out 5W of UVA and 3W of UVB.
> http://www.gelighting.com/LightingWeb/br/images/Metal_Halide_Multi_Vapor_Lamps_Data_sheet_EN_tcm388-12802.pdf


Yeah you really don't want as much UV light as those T5's make, they should only be ran 15 minutes at a time, last 6 hours of the day only. When I started using that 18% UV light I scorched my plants with too much UV, makes all your trics burst and you get a ton of early ambers and couch lock city.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> Yeah you really don't want as much UV light as those T5's make, they should only be ran 15 minutes at a time, last 6 hours of the day only. When I started using that 18% UV light I scorched my plants with too much UV, makes all your trics burst and you get a ton of early ambers and couch lock city.


My point was that either way you need to supplement to get the best resin its all about pushing as much as you can for max trike production. even on and off every 10 mins would kill it. Since the plants produce THC crystals as a sunblock it would make sense to slowly add more to make the development go crazy.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> My point was that either way you need to supplement to get the best resin its all about pushing as much as you can for max trike production. even on and off every 10 mins would kill it. Since the plants produce THC crystals as a sunblock it would make sense to slowly add more to make the development go crazy.


If you running COB's i'd suggest supplementing more red (particularly far red) in the spectrum as well as it is highly lacking in that area.


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## a mongo frog (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> My point was that either way you need to supplement to get the best resin its all about pushing as much as you can for max trike production. even on and off every 10 mins would kill it. Since the plants produce THC crystals as a sunblock it would make sense to slowly add more to make the development go crazy.


Is this for cobs or all lamps?


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> If you running COB's i'd suggest supplementing more red (particularly far red) in the spectrum as well as it is highly lacking in that area.


I would agree. I plan to run one in between the cob bars when its needed.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 4, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Is this for cobs or all lamps?


All lights.. because even MH has a negligible amount of both UVs.


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## Yodaweed (Sep 4, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> My point was that either way you need to supplement to get the best resin its all about pushing as much as you can for max trike production. even on and off every 10 mins would kill it. Since the plants produce THC crystals as a sunblock it would make sense to slowly add more to make the development go crazy.


That's not really how it works, when you use UV light it has a point where you don't want any more . UV light makes your plant grow smaller because it spends more energy protecting itself(growing trics) , and if you put the UV light on too much(or too close) it will burn your plant and scorch your trics and reduce your yield. You are basically giving your plants a mild sunburn. Also when working with UV lights try to wear UV protected sun glasses and limit skin exposure, it can cause skin cancer and damage your eyes.


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## since1991 (Sep 5, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> There's a lot of strains that can hit 30% or come very close (high 20%'s ) my golden goat got tested at 32% at the dispensary I bought it from. My tangie cut is actually frostier than my golden goat and I ran gorilla glue 4 last year that definitely was around 30% it was super frosty.


I personally.do not put too much stock into the testing lab results stuff. Ive seen and have had different labs produce different percentages from lab to lab....different sections of the same plant and whatnot. Its all ballpark at best. Ive seen variances as much as 7% from different labs. Same chunks of buds from the same tops...lowers...secondary buds...etc.


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## since1991 (Sep 5, 2016)

I pretty much do not get into the "this bud tests over 20%"....or 25+....whatever. Ive had straight floor me cannabis that tested 15%. Ive had 26% The White strain not even give me a head rush. Thc % doesnt mean a hell of alot to me personally. Just ballpark...money thing..and bragging rights.


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## since1991 (Sep 5, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> I live in Colorado  , that pineapple express is a huge yielder I know someone that been running it a while.


I know a good outdoor grower here in Michigan that used to run P Express and it was a very big yielder outside and very top quality. Tasted like rotten pineapple and sprite soda.


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## CobKits (Sep 9, 2016)

sixstring2112 said:


> Just when everyone thought the hps bulb could not be any better gavita came along with de tech (or phillips)
> Im betting since they have unlimited research money now we will see another jump in tech with de lamps very soon


yeah i dunno. that was 5 years ago and were still working with decades-old arc-tube technology which is at its limit. vs solid state lighting which has the advantage of more efficient cheaper semiconductors evolving constantly. HPS may evolve a little bit but LED is pulling away in every respect including rate of unit cost reduction which will make it a level playing field in the next 18-24 mos. i mean shit 2 years ago crees were over $60 for 10000 lumens. now you can buy 40000 lumens for $40 and that will cost less than half of that two years from now


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## since1991 (Sep 9, 2016)

CobKits said:


> yeah i dunno. that was 5 years ago and were still working with decades-old arc-tube technology which is at its limit. vs solid state lighting which has the advantage of more efficient cheaper semiconductors evolving constantly. HPS may evolve a little bit but LED is pulling away in every respect including rate of unit cost reduction which will make it a level playing field in the next 18-24 mos. i mean shit 2 years ago crees were over $60 for 10000 lumens. now you can buy 40000 lumens for $40 and that will cost less than half of that two years from now


THIS^^^^ is why led cobs will soon be IT. I run 8 Gavita 6/750 flex's now. Have been for a couple years. Didnt know ANYTHING about COB technology at the time. But ive been paying attention lately. And its getting better and better. And lightning speed too. The advancements and tech/efficiency is moving so damn fast. Literally...like as I type...these words on my phone and forum fast. No shit.


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## CobKits (Sep 9, 2016)

its damn near the point that instead of investing $100 in your next hps bulb you invest the same $100 in 1000W of chips that last over a decade at better efficiency


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## bryangtho (Sep 10, 2016)

since1991 said:


> THIS^^^^ is why led cobs will soon be IT. I run 8 Gavita 6/750 flex's now. Have been for a couple years. Didnt know ANYTHING about COB technology at the time. But ive been paying attention lately. And its getting better and better. And lightning speed too. The advancements and tech/efficiency is moving so damn fast. Literally...like as I type...these words on my phone and forum fast. No shit.


Hi since1991 would like to no what lights you are using for your veg. As I just ordered 6 of the 1000e gavitas with the controller.
And if you use gavitas what are they like for veg


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## since1991 (Sep 10, 2016)

bryangtho said:


> Hi since1991 would like to no what lights you are using for your veg. As I just ordered 6 of the 1000e gavitas with the controller.
> And if you use gavitas what are they like for veg


I got a 7x7 tent with 2 8 bulb t5's and a 400 watt old school ballast metal halide in it. I got a very old school co2 tank,regulator,and timer too. Vegges them real nice and bushy. Then i put them in the flower rooms. I got 2 rooms actually. The other one is 4 air cooled 1000 watters. But this room doesnt have the mini split ac and i shut it down during summer months. With double ended lamps...you need a.c. Its pretty much mandatory when running more than one.


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## bryangtho (Sep 10, 2016)

since1991 said:


> I got a 7x7 tent with 2 8 bulb t5's and a 400 watt old school ballast metal halide in it. I got a very old school co2 tank,regulator,and timer too. Vegges them real nice and bushy. Then i put them in the flower rooms. I got 2 rooms actually. The other one is 4 air cooled 1000 watters. But this room doesnt have the mini split ac and i shut it down during summer months. With double ended lamps...you need a.c. Its pretty much mandatory when running more than one.


Ok thank for that, I do run a few rooms my self and all of them run 600 hps, Next week will start on building a 20x8x9 room. My main grow room now has 9x600hps in it I cool it with 4 big fans most of the time only needed 2. So I was hoping to do the same with even bigger fans I seen ones the over day 2600cfm. Can you use the gravitas for veg or have you ever heard of anyone using them


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## Shugglet (Sep 13, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> All lights.. because even MH has a negligible amount of both UVs.


Interesting because if MH has a "negligible" amount than that would mean that sunlight also has a "negligible" amount of UVs...

(using your 5w out of 1000w as a base)

Realistically if youre going to claim the "need" for supplemental UV you must also proclaim the "need" for CO2 levels to be ~1500ppm.


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## since1991 (Sep 13, 2016)

bryangtho said:


> Ok thank for that, I do run a few rooms my self and all of them run 600 hps, Next week will start on building a 20x8x9 room. My main grow room now has 9x600hps in it I cool it with 4 big fans most of the time only needed 2. So I was hoping to do the same with even bigger fans I seen ones the over day 2600cfm. Can you use the gravitas for veg or have you ever heard of anyone using them


How in hell are you cooling a 5400 watt room using just fans? Summer months? Wtf???


----------



## since1991 (Sep 13, 2016)

Oh btw....not to be a grammar nazi but they are called Gavita. Seen a few people call them gravitas. No biggie but just like phenos....next thing you know we are saying phenols. Lol. Or strains. ...strands. Phenols of certain strands under gravitas. Smh.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 13, 2016)

Shugglet said:


> Interesting because if MH has a "negligible" amount than that would mean that sunlight also has a "negligible" amount of UVs...
> 
> (using your 5w out of 1000w as a base)
> 
> Realistically if youre going to claim the "need" for supplemental UV you must also proclaim the "need" for CO2 levels to be ~1500ppm.


Comparing 5W of UV (A and B combined) to the sun is odd. You do NOT need 1500PPM of CO2 till youre at 86F and pushing past 1500PPFD in lighting ( and trust me not many people are). After that its needed, till then its all based off of having the normal amount of CO2 and that temperature for max output... Of course it does help in a sealed room because that way you maximize the CO2 usage...But its only so you dont have to use a carbon filter really.

Thems the numbers, you just dont get a good use of the CO2 without the higher heat and light output. Which you wont be getting from a gavida unless you have alot of them running close.

I have the graph that shows this in my signature.


----------



## bryangtho (Sep 13, 2016)

since1991 said:


> How in hell are you cooling a 5400 watt room using just fans? Summer months? Wtf???


Yes easy I have 4 large fan all together about 5300cfm and draw the cool air from under the house. Not mush I can do on very hot days I just turn the digital ballasts down but that are days over 40. Most of the time over summer the room wont go over 32. Over here where I live no one uses ac they all use large fans to cool the room and it work fine


----------



## since1991 (Sep 13, 2016)

bryangtho said:


> Yes easy I have 4 large fan all together about 5300cfm and draw the cool air from under the house. Not mush I can do on very hot days I just turn the digital ballasts down but that are days over 40. Most of the time over summer the room wont go over 32. Over here where I live no one uses ac they all use large fans to cool the room and it work fine


Wish i could get away with a 5000 or 6000 watt room without air conditioning. Here in the Mindwest U.s.a. there is just no way around it except the middle of winter.


----------



## a mongo frog (Sep 13, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Comparing 5W of UV (A and B combined) to the sun is odd. You do NOT need 1500PPM of CO2 till youre at 86F and pushing past 1500PPFD in lighting ( and trust me not many people are). After that its needed, till then its all based off of having the normal amount of CO2 and that temperature for max output... Of course it does help in a sealed room because that way you maximize the CO2 usage...But its only so you dont have to use a carbon filter really.
> 
> Thems the numbers, you just dont get a good use of the CO2 without the higher heat and light output. Which you wont be getting from a gavida unless you have alot of them running close.
> 
> I have the graph that shows this in my signature.


Nice charts man. That SE hps looks like one of the best options there at 2 foot, being some are dropping lower then that.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 13, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Nice charts man. That SE hps looks like one of the best options there at 2 foot, being some are dropping lower then that.


Ill stick with the cobs all day, but the side by side will be the determining factor after I get them tested. Should be the end all when it comes to yield/TCH/quality/CBD/GtoW ratio and everything else.


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## CobKits (Sep 13, 2016)

Shugglet said:


> Interesting because if MH has a "negligible" amount than that would mean that sunlight also has a "negligible" amount of UVs...
> .


remember MH UV is absorbed by the glass in many fixtures


----------



## a mongo frog (Sep 13, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Ill stick with the cobs all day, but the side by side will be the determining factor after I get them tested. Should be the end all when it comes to yield/TCH/quality/CBD/GtoW ratio and everything else.


Have you ever had bud tested?


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Sep 13, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Have you ever had bud tested?


No but I was out of product my first run before I could test! Which is a good thing lol. So I would guess it was mid at best like around 20% or so nothing crazy. I will have everything tested in Ann Arbor or through a connection that owns a dispensary. But I did have the test results from one plant in my garden when I got the clones that was 28% which I would be happy with.

It was tested from the plant that the cut was taken from so should be close.


----------



## Qjay420 (Oct 1, 2016)

kelly1376 said:


> I think likely we'll see them be distributed more to major big box outlets and the price come down substantially. Gavitas for ~$250 at home depot...that sorta thing. Generally when a small niche company gets taken over by a bigger broader company the quality doesn't improve but the distribution base gets wider and price comes down. Who knows though it would be nice if they continued advancing their tech in the process. Another problem I see with cobs is all the builders and users are most interested in chasing new tech than improving price points on existing modules. I believe the Cree that came out before the 3590 (CXB 3070?) or Vero 29 can be put together quite cheap and would still work great but everyone wants the new latest and greatest. Now everyone is about to move on from the 3590s and start chasing the Citizen 1825s. Give it a year and 3590s will be dirt cheap but nobody will want them and few will be building them.


on the contrary I'll be building them, sorry but you are missed informed . the 3590 is almost 40% more efficient than the old chips. and when you invest in a bunch you do pay short money for the chips. and best of all all you need to do is pop out the old chip and pop in the new chip . two minutes and done with the new technology. led is the best lighting period when it everything so why wouldn't they be the best to grow with .simple logic. gravita DE Is already old technology. thanks for listening


----------



## bryangtho (Oct 1, 2016)

Just got 6 e series Gavita with the Gavita controller going to give them a try


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## bottletoke (Oct 1, 2016)

Nice, I just bought another 6 and another el2 too! Your gonna luv them!


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## bryangtho (Oct 1, 2016)

bottletoke said:


> Nice, I just bought another 6 and another el2 too! Your gonna luv them!


Yes I hope so I have to get 2 more


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## bottletoke (Oct 1, 2016)

Hoagtech in Washington sells them for $420 each.


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## a mongo frog (Oct 1, 2016)

bryangtho said:


> Just got 6 e series Gavita with the Gavita controller going to give them a try View attachment 3794887


Holy shit!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## bryangtho (Oct 1, 2016)

bottletoke said:


> Hoagtech in Washington sells them for $420 each.


Yes not over here I payed $820 each and $800 for the controller


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## a mongo frog (Oct 1, 2016)

bryangtho said:


> Yes not over here I payed $820 each and $800 for the controller


No you did not..............


----------



## bryangtho (Oct 1, 2016)

bottletoke said:


> Hoagtech in Washington sells them for $420 each.


Just had a look at Hoagtech and the ones I have are $649.99 not $420


----------



## bryangtho (Oct 1, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> No you did not..............


Fuck I did lol the dearest ones I find was $1100 over here


----------



## bottletoke (Oct 1, 2016)

bryangtho said:


> Just had a look at Hoagtech and the ones I have are $649.99 not $420


You have to phone in and say you saw the ad on craigslist. The ad was placed in June and they're still honoring the price.


----------



## a mongo frog (Oct 1, 2016)

bryangtho said:


> Fuck I did lol the dearest ones I find was $1100 over here


Well at least you have........ 6 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fuck dude 6 DE's !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! fucking exciting!!!!!!!! 3 tons? Co2? Fresh air? So many questions.......


----------



## bottletoke (Oct 1, 2016)

bryangtho said:


> Fuck I did lol the dearest ones I find was $1100 over here


Where's over here?


----------



## bryangtho (Oct 1, 2016)

Yes it would be great to live over there just for the great prices you can get shit for


----------



## bryangtho (Oct 1, 2016)

I'm in Australia because of the US dollar we have to pay 25% more


----------



## Freddie Millergogo (Oct 1, 2016)

For less than $1100 you could get a GrowMau5 Canopy 10


----------



## Uberknot (Oct 1, 2016)

Whats the cost of a replacement bulb and how long does its effectiveness last before having to replace the bulb?


----------



## bryangtho (Oct 1, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Well at least you have........ 6 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fuck dude 6 DE's !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! fucking exciting!!!!!!!! 3 tons? Co2? Fresh air? So many questions.......


Yes there will be 8 in total I have to get 2 more. Yes it be all fresh air as that all I no there will be 4 huge fans. My mate that runs the hydro shop is showing me some new fans that are out now. They are more powerful then my 12 inch whisperer and they are only 10 inch and quitter


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## bottletoke (Oct 1, 2016)

Gonna start saving up for a big cob retrofit unfortunately its just not in the cards right now. since I have everything dialed with the gavitas and environment I don't really want to start by slowly bringing in 1 or 2 fixtures at a time.


----------



## bryangtho (Oct 1, 2016)

Freddie Millergogo said:


> For less than $1100 you could get a GrowMau5 Canopy 10


Nothing finish off quite like a hps week 6.2


----------



## a mongo frog (Oct 1, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> Whats the cost of a replacement bulb and how long does its effectiveness last before having to replace the bulb?


at 2.5 minimum units out of 24-25 square feet and the dude has 8 fixtures, why would that even matter? Not trying to be rude but your talking 50 salami suckers every 9 weeks on the right strain. Some on this site claiming more.


----------



## bryangtho (Oct 1, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> Whats the cost of a replacement bulb and how long does its effectiveness last before having to replace the bulb?


I have read it somewhere I think it was lose of 5 or 10% after 1 year and I think about $120 for a replacement


----------



## bryangtho (Oct 1, 2016)

bryangtho said:


> I have read it somewhere I think it was lose of 5 or 10% after 1 year and I think about $120 for a replacement


I just had a quick look for a new replacement $194 I no I will get a lot cheaper then that


----------



## Uberknot (Oct 1, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> at 2.5 minimum units out of 24-25 square feet and the dude has 8 fixtures, why would that even matter? Not trying to be rude but your talking 50 salami suckers every 9 weeks on the right strain. Some on this site claiming more.



That's nice, but some people are not growing pounds of it to sell.....the cost effectiveness matters over time.

If they could get that bulb cost down a bit that might help some.

What's the minimum height you need to use one of these?


----------



## a mongo frog (Oct 1, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> That's nice, but some people are not growing pounds of it to sell.....the cost effectiveness matters over time.
> 
> If they could get that bulb cost down a bit that might help some.
> 
> What's the minimum height you need to use one of these?


Your so pissed off. Nice try of trolling. Can we just grow without you getting all involved? Im going to use a bit of cal mag tonight ok. Is that alright? Or should i just go to rite aid and get some Epson? Just kidding I love you!!!!!! If i wasn't married i would to you!!!!!!


----------



## bryangtho (Oct 1, 2016)

They say a minimum of 3 feet from the top of the canopy


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## a mongo frog (Oct 1, 2016)

bryangtho said:


> They say a minimum of 3 feet from the top of the canopy


Ive taken my DE a bit closer. No issues at all but 3 feet looks like best


----------



## Uberknot (Oct 1, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Your so pissed off. Nice try of trolling. Can we just grow without you getting all involved? Im going to use a bit of cal mag tonight ok. Is that alright? Or should i just go to rite aid and get some Epson? Just kidding I love you!!!!!! If i wasn't married i would to you!!!!!!


Ignored dude have a nice life I wish you the best I have no time for you.


----------



## a mongo frog (Oct 1, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> Ignored dude have a nice life I wish you the best I have no time for you.


Dude no!!!!!!!! I meant if i wasn't married id let you to me........I just worded it wrong sorry.........


----------



## Uberknot (Oct 1, 2016)

bryangtho said:


> They say a minimum of 3 feet from the top of the canopy



Thanks.


----------



## bryangtho (Oct 1, 2016)

I hope you understand it was done very quick. but this will be the new room I think it will work well what I've been reading


----------



## bottletoke (Oct 1, 2016)

Email gavita support with your info and they'll setup a lighting plan for you. After 2 grows I thought I had everything setup properly aND I was pretty happy then I emailed support after seeing a buddies layout and the plan they sent me brought me huge improvements, made me really see the magic these things bring out.
It's free so it's worth it just to see what they say.


----------



## bryangtho (Oct 1, 2016)

bottletoke said:


> Email gavita support with your info and they'll setup a lighting plan for you. After 2 grows I thought I had everything setup properly aND I was pretty happy then I emailed support after seeing a buddies layout and the plan they sent me brought me huge improvements, made me really see the magic these things bring out.
> It's free so it's worth it just to see what they say.


Yes thanks for that I will do that


----------



## Olive Drab Green (Oct 1, 2016)

Should probably just DIY COB. Or Tasty if you're lazy and want a kickass build. That's what I did.


----------



## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Oct 2, 2016)

Yeah just to echo a few people Cobs put out more light for less watts, Gavitas are a sick light... but damn... have fun with the AC costs. that matrix should be around 700-1000PPFD all over for around 6250W I hope you have used DE before because its about to be 150F in that room in like 30 mins. If its not too late to return them I would. Oh there is a 10K bulb thats DE that a guy I know uses for the whole grow, he swears by it its MH. Just as a fact to throw out there you could have had this for around the same price. This isnt even getting into the most efficient setup.

CXB3590DD36V5000K 50 COBS @2.4A ON 5.88 PROFILE HEATSINK
_*100 SQ.FT*_. CANOPY 92% EFFICIENT DRIVER @15 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: *4758.7*
Cobs power watts: 4378
Total voltage forward: 1824
Total lumens: 762035
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 2117
Total PPF: 9462.99
PPFD based on canopy area: *1018.59*
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 21.17
Cob efficiency:* 53.72%*
Power watts per sq.ft.: 43.78
Voltage forward per cob: 36.48
Lumens per watt: 174.06
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.27in/14/1.0in
Heatsink area per inch: 260.01 cm^2
Total heat watts: 2026
umol/s/W / CRI: 4.47 / 70CRI
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 935 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 312 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $1.1
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $257.47
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $385.95
Cost per cob: $46.5
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $1.74
Total cobs cost: $2325
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $1627
Total heatsink active cooling cost: *$542

Heres the bulb

http://growershouse.com/solis-tek-double-ended-1000-mh-10k*


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## bottletoke (Oct 2, 2016)

When I priced out diy cobs 4-6 weeks ago I wasnt getting anything close to what I would be getting with a $420usd 1000w de gavita? Ive been running them for a little bit now and my heatpump isn't costing me that much......besides the startup which is 4-5 times an hour for a couple seconds.
Totally agree cobs are the way to go but for funds upfront where else can u get 5x5(5x6) coverage with those par values for under $500?


----------



## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Oct 2, 2016)

bottletoke said:


> When I priced out diy cobs 4-6 weeks ago I wasnt getting anything close to what I would be getting with a $420usd 1000w de gavita? Ive been running them for a little bit now and my heatpump isn't costing me that much......besides the startup which is 4-5 times an hour for a couple seconds.
> Totally agree cobs are the way to go but for funds upfront where else can u get 5x5(5x6) coverage with those par values for under $500?


Easy 5000k cxb3590 8 driven at 2.4A should be around the same price and put out more than a Gavita all day. You prob weren't lookin at top bins in that color range


----------



## bottletoke (Oct 2, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Easy 5000k cxb3590 8 driven at 2.4A should be around the same price and put out more than a Gavita all day. You prob weren't lookin at top bins in that color range


Including power supply/drivers, heat sinks and everything required to make an equivalent fixture is going to be around the same price as a $420 1000w de gavita?


----------



## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Oct 2, 2016)

Closer to $ 600 but yes and it would almost be 2 times the PPFD. Not hard to work out... and to give you something that is cheaper.... look lower.


CXB3590DD36V5000K 8 COBS @2.4A ON 5.88 PROFILE HEATSINK
16 SQ.FT. CANOPY 92% EFFICIENT DRIVER @15 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall:* 760.87*
Cobs power watts: 700
Total voltage forward: 292
Total lumens: 121842
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 338
Total PPF: 1510.86
* PPFD based on canopy area: 1016.42*
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 21.13
Cob efficiency: 53.72%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 43.75
Voltage forward per cob: 36.48
Lumens per watt: 174.06
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.27in/14/1.0in
Heatsink area per inch: 260.01 cm^2
Total heat watts: 324
umol/s/W / CRI: 4.47 / 70CRI
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 150 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 50 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $1.1
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $41.59
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $62.13
Cost per cob: $46.5
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $1.74
Total cobs cost:* $372*
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $261
Total heatsink active cooling cost:* $87*



The same as a gavita PPFD wise. $469 about.


CXB3590DD36V5000K 4 COBS @3.6A ON 5.88 PROFILE HEATSINK
16 SQ.FT. CANOPY 92% EFFICIENT DRIVER @15 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: *597.83*
Cobs power watts: 550
Total voltage forward: 153
Total lumens: 77402
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 215
Total PPF: 961.05
PPFD based on canopy area:* 646.54*
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 13.44
Cob efficiency: 43.44%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 34.38
Voltage forward per cob: 38.22
Lumens per watt: 140.73
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.27in/14/1.0in
Heatsink area per inch: 260.01 cm^2
Total heat watts: 311
umol/s/W / CRI: 4.47 / 70CRI
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 144 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 48 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $0.87
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $32.78
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $48.92
Cost per cob: $46.5
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $1.74
Total cobs cost: *$186*
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $251
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $*83*


----------



## bottletoke (Oct 2, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Closer to $ 600 but yes and it would almost be 2 times the PPFD. Not hard to work out... and to give you something that is cheaper.... look lower.
> 
> 
> CXB3590DD36V5000K 8 COBS @2.4A ON 5.88 PROFILE HEATSINK
> ...


So where would one source all these goods? I'm guessing it would be through several suppliers instead of everything coming from one purchase??


----------



## a mongo frog (Oct 2, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Closer to $ 600 but yes and it would almost be 2 times the PPFD. Not hard to work out... and to give you something that is cheaper.... look lower.
> 
> 
> CXB3590DD36V5000K 8 COBS @2.4A ON 5.88 PROFILE HEATSINK
> ...


So your going to beat a 1000 watt DE with your cobs in a 4x4 area?


----------



## bottletoke (Oct 2, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> So your going to beat a 1000 watt DE with your cobs in a 4x4 area?


I know it's easily possible with cobs, it's the price that has me on the fence.the cheapest diy cob that is equal to a gavita's par value was around $1300......


----------



## Uberknot (Oct 3, 2016)

bottletoke said:


> I know it's easily possible with cobs, it's the price that has me on the fence.the cheapest diy cob that is equal to a gavita's par value was around $1300......



You sure about those numbers? I'd say a lot less than that. unless you are talking about buying one of the dudes DIY kits...now that you can find all over the place with pricing, butt with cob prices coming down they should drop a little.

_*"The same as a gavita PPFD wise. $469 about.


CXB3590DD36V5000K 4 COBS @3.6A ON 5.88 PROFILE HEATSINK
16 SQ.FT. CANOPY 92% EFFICIENT DRIVER @15 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 597.83
Cobs power watts: 550
Total voltage forward: 153
Total lumens: 77402
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 215
Total PPF: 961.05
PPFD based on canopy area: 646.54
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 13.44
Cob efficiency: 43.44%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 34.38
Voltage forward per cob: 38.22
Lumens per watt: 140.73
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.27in/14/1.0in
Heatsink area per inch: 260.01 cm^2
Total heat watts: 311
umol/s/W / CRI: 4.47 / 70CRI
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 144 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 48 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $0.87
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $32.78
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $48.92
Cost per cob: $46.5
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $1.74
Total cobs cost: $186
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $251
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $83"*_


----------



## bottletoke (Oct 3, 2016)

I keep thinking there's a catch lol, so with this setup I'll be able to flower 6' plants and have penetration equal penetration as a Gavita? Also this setup is shy of a gavita's 25sqft footprint.....


----------



## bryangtho (Oct 3, 2016)

The thing is over here as long as you don't go over 10 plant. Its just a slap on the wrist and a small fine. That's why I grow my plants so big and I feel that 8 gavita's under 10 plants is the way to go. And besides I make all my pot up all my feeder rings and build the room I don't want to build the lights. Its a lot of work with 4 room on the go its way to mush work


----------



## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Oct 3, 2016)

bottletoke said:


> I keep thinking there's a catch lol, so with this setup I'll be able to flower 6' plants and have penetration equal penetration as a Gavita? Also this setup is shy of a gavita's 25sqft footprint.....


That footprint is only if you use multiple lights if you use one you will have reading lower than 400PPFD which is only good for veg... There is a catch the efficiency... It's garbage compared to lower driven leds.


a mongo frog said:


> So your going to beat a 1000 watt DE with your cobs in a 4x4 area?


I know I am but the results will be shown, still making clones currently.


bottletoke said:


> I know it's easily possible with cobs, it's the price that has me on the fence.the cheapest diy cob that is equal to a gavita's par value was around $1300......


That would be a good setup, but I can make one that would be around $850 and have the the most even spread ever and be cool to the touch.. Kits can be over priced since they save you the time figuring out what to get


----------



## bottletoke (Oct 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> That footprint is only if you use multiple lights if you use one you will have reading lower than 400PPFD which is only good for veg... There is a catch the efficiency... It's garbage compared to lower driven leds.
> 
> 
> I know I am but the results will be shown, still making clones currently.
> ...


Can it grow big plants? 5-6' and penetrate the canopy?


----------



## bottletoke (Oct 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> That footprint is only if you use multiple lights t


Yup, got a few gavita's going.


----------



## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Oct 3, 2016)

bottletoke said:


> Can it grow big plants? 5-6' and penetrate the canopy?


Yes it can but it has to be highly driven with reflectors.. But that's not the point of cobs, if you Scrog out the same area you will get very good results to growing a plant big. So less time in veg and more in flower.. Saving you time and money while getting in more cycles per year.



bottletoke said:


> Yup, got a few gavita's going.


Hope you like them, after this side by side I'll be selling mine for cheap to get more LEDs. Haters gonna hate lol


----------



## Uberknot (Oct 3, 2016)

Like I said if they did not lose efficiency so fast and the cost was lower for a bulb and the heat output was less and....yeah there's that height above canopy thing as well....It might be worth it...

The costs in electric, cooling, and replacing favor Cobs by a long way and newer Cob tech is already on the way.

If you have lots of headroom and $ to spend and want something you can just slap up and grow, regular light bulbs would be an option.


----------



## bryangtho (Oct 3, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> Like I said if they did not lose efficiency so fast and the cost was lower for a bulb and the heat output was less and....yeah there's that height above canopy thing as well....It might be worth it...
> 
> The costs in electric, cooling, and replacing favor Cobs by a long way and newer Cob tech is already on the way.
> 
> If you have lots of headroom and $ to spend and want something you can just slap up and grow, regular light bulbs would be an option.


They are still at 95% with 5000 hours


----------



## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Oct 3, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> Like I said if they did not lose efficiency so fast and the cost was lower for a bulb and the heat output was less and....yeah there's that height above canopy thing as well....It might be worth it...
> 
> The costs in electric, cooling, and replacing favor Cobs by a long way and newer Cob tech is already on the way.
> 
> If you have lots of headroom and $ to spend and want something you can just slap up and grow, regular light bulbs would be an option.


Run them less than 50% it should last somewhere between 50,000-120,000 hours so I'm not sure where that idea came from


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Oct 3, 2016)

bryangtho said:


> They are still at 95% with 5000 hours


You missed a zero


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## bryangtho (Oct 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> You missed a zero


I read it 50000 hours somewhere on the box its saying 5000 at 95 %


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Oct 3, 2016)

bryangtho said:


> I read it 50000 hours somewhere on the box its saying 5000 at 95 %


Maybe at 100% output. Look at the cree charts they show that they can last the time I stated. 50000 is at their recomended current rate and idk what that is specifically


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## bryangtho (Oct 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Maybe at 100% output. Look at the cree charts they show that they can last the time I stated. 50000 is at their recomended current rate and idk what that is specifically


Maybe I was trying to find some prices of the cod set up over here can not find a thing


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## Uberknot (Oct 3, 2016)

MeGaKiLlErMaN said:


> Run them less than 50% it should last somewhere between 50,000-120,000 hours so I'm not sure where that idea came from



what are you talking about?

And everyone knows light bulbs stay working what the box says?

Anyways they do lose their ability to grow much faster.

And If we are going to run them at 50%?

Hell then COBS are even better.


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## MeGaKiLlErMaN (Oct 3, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> what are you talking about?
> 
> And everyone knows light bulbs stay working what the box says?
> 
> ...


Run them at 70% and it will last 50,000 hours. I run them at 50% roughly. So about 100,000 hours but I also have a lot of cooling on it. It's on page 6.

http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED Components and Modules/XLamp/XLamp Application Notes/XLamp_lumen_maintenance.pdf


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## Qjay420 (Oct 7, 2016)

Thc247 said:


> sorry this may of been asked before but i really cant find anythin usefull i currently run 5 600 w hps in flower i have digital ballasts and the old type my extraction is fine my temps are fine i been thinking about gavitas for some time now i just want to know between a 600 hps and a 1000 gavita does the gavita run hotter than the hps or if so does the 600 gavitas run cooler than hps i like the idea of gavitas but just not sure i dont like the ballasts hanging in the tent if they generate heat


Hey man hope you are well, I just wanted to let you know that I have two 1000watt and a 400 watt Quantum ballasts. they prorbobly have about 4 grows each on them. 150.00 each for the 1000watt and 100 for the 400 or you can take them all for 270.00 .


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## since1991 (Jul 12, 2017)

Shugglet said:


> The only way weed prices are going to fall as hard and fast as you crazies seem to think is if America decides to quit pussyfooting around and jump into the deep end of legalizing recreational across the board (Feds change their tune). And that is not happening in the next 5 years, sorry. Just have to get your supply to where the demand is...


No its happening even quicker. Cali prices are dropping rite now. By next year..watch out. You people have your head in the sand. Ounces of Colorado FIRE for 80 bucks or less. Cmon.


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## since1991 (Jul 12, 2017)

adower said:


> How long have people been talking about big ag taking over or it going legal federally? That not happening anytime soon.


Its only been a year since these posts. How much is quality bud going for in the western med states now?


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## adower (Jul 12, 2017)

since1991 said:


> Its only been a year since these posts. How much is quality bud going for in the western med states now?


I know people getting 2300-2500 at harborside for indoor still.


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## since1991 (Jul 13, 2017)

adower said:


> I know people getting 2300-2500 at harborside for indoor still.


Really? Thats top dollar for units these days. 1500 to 2000 a unit here. More like 17 or 18


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## adower (Jul 13, 2017)

since1991 said:


> Really? Thats top dollar for units these days. 1500 to 2000 a unit here. More like 17 or 18


Yep. However they will only buy indoor now and are pretty picky. Anything under 2k and I feel like you're getting ripped off if it's quality product .


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## Carolina Dream'n (Jul 13, 2017)

since1991 said:


> Its only been a year since these posts. How much is quality bud going for in the western med states now?


16-18 for light deps. 20-22 for indoor. PNW.


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## TheChemist77 (Jul 13, 2017)

since1991 said:


> Its only been a year since these posts. How much is quality bud going for in the western med states now?


 in mi and il,, you can get $2,500.00 a lb,,,, for great quality hydro.. if there is a single seed nobody will buy it.. i used to get $400.00 an oz in il in 2001-2003,, i cant believe how the prices dropped...


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## since1991 (Jul 13, 2017)

TheChemist77 said:


> in mi and il,, you can get $2,500.00 a lb,,,, for great quality hydro.. if there is a single seed nobody will buy it.. i used to get $400.00 an oz in il in 2001-2003,, i cant believe how the prices dropped...


Yes they have dropped bigtime. I know a few growers that will dump 3 or more at 1700 to 1800 a piece. Gotta buy all 3 though. Very high quality as well. Dried..month or longer cure..and trimmed very tight. Pounds with nothing but frosty tight golfballs.


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## since1991 (Jul 13, 2017)

So its safe to say..with high quality indoor..1800 to 2400 a unit is in your neck of the woods?


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## since1991 (Jul 13, 2017)

TheChemist77 said:


> in mi and il,, you can get $2,500.00 a lb,,,, for great quality hydro.. if there is a single seed nobody will buy it.. i used to get $400.00 an oz in il in 2001-2003,, i cant believe how the prices dropped...


Back in the 90's and early 2000's...good indoor fetched some coin. All you needed was a few lamps to get paid. In those days people paid for one what damn near 3 are going for today.


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## jarvild (Jul 13, 2017)

Northern Indiana here and I'm still able to get $ 3,200 for my quality indoors.


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## Enigma (Jul 13, 2017)

Steer clear of Gavita.


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## since1991 (Jul 13, 2017)

jarvild said:


> Northern Indiana here and I'm still able to get $ 3,200 for my quality indoors.


Indy is still a non med state right?


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## since1991 (Jul 13, 2017)

Enigma said:


> Steer clear of Gavita.


My plants love em. They are attracted to Gavitas like a moth to a flame. Lol.


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## Enigma (Jul 13, 2017)

since1991 said:


> My plants love em. They are attracted to Gavitas like a moth to a flame. Lol.


Gavita is owned by Monsanto.



I'll give my money to someone else.


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## since1991 (Jul 13, 2017)

Enigma said:


> Gavita is owned by Monsanto.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll give my money to someone else.


Arw they? Really? You sure?


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## Enigma (Jul 13, 2017)

since1991 said:


> Arw they? Really? You sure?


General Hydroponics, Botanicare and Gavita.



http://www.defenddemocracy.press/all-signs-point-to-a-corporate-takeover-of-the-marijuana-industry-by-bayer-monsanto/

Just one of many articles on the subject.

I will no longer purchase products from those companies.

Besides, there is a plethora of options available that are less costly.


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## jarvild (Jul 13, 2017)

since1991 said:


> Indy is still a non med state right?


yes


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## since1991 (Jul 13, 2017)

Enigma said:


> General Hydroponics, Botanicare and Gavita.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought they were owned by a small offshoot side company of a bigger company that has had business deals with monsanto. Not monsanto themselves.


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## since1991 (Jul 13, 2017)

Enigma said:


> General Hydroponics, Botanicare and Gavita.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do i get a free pass for equipment purchased before Gavita got bought by Hawthorne? Lol


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## Enigma (Jul 13, 2017)

I still have a full line up of General Hydroponics bag dry nutrients, and some liquid from Botanicare.

I'm looking into other options, such as Roots Organic and Fox Farm now. 

There will be a learning curve.


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## TheChemist77 (Jul 14, 2017)

i know i hate giving money to companies like scotts,, however ive been using general hydro maxi series for years w/ great results...im going to stick w/ it unless somthing changes...sorry


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## Enigma (Jul 14, 2017)

You're giving money (power) to people that are using it to put you in prison.

Look at Colorado, they are hunting small time growers.

Just a heads up.


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## TheChemist77 (Jul 15, 2017)

Enigma said:


> You're giving money (power) to people that are using it to put you in prison.
> 
> Look at Colorado, they are hunting small time growers.
> 
> Just a heads up.


 as i said i hate giving them money,,,im sorry but i like maxi


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 15, 2017)

Enigma said:


> You're giving money (power) to people that are using it to put you in prison.
> 
> Look at Colorado, they are hunting small time growers.
> 
> Just a heads up.


Monsanto is in the business of "hunting small time growers"???
Got any links? 

Those small time growers probably buy a lot of GH products. Why would GH spend money to put their own customers in prison? 
It would be a bad business decision.


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## Mr Lizard (Mar 31, 2020)

Thc247 said:


> so is the gavitas hotter than the hps or about the same mate wouldnt it be better if i got the 1000 and ran em on 600 heats not a problem at minute its just the hotter it gets the louder my extractors get dont wanna spend that much if they going to make my space louder than it is now


I know what you mean mate. I have 4 whirlygigs on our garage roof and 4x 8" (2 intake and 2 suctions). With the sound of all of it running along with 4 fan cooled ballasts. On a mousefart quiet night I'm glad we have a "nod and a wink" understanding neighbor


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## DoubleAtotheRON (Apr 1, 2020)

patrickkawi37 said:


> I agree that you will be able to get pounds for 500 bucks in 5 years ... But you won't be getting my weed for that. I don't grow garbage . It would be impossible to turn a profit at that price. So this is where you say yes but if you growing with leds your run cost is lower.. So what your saying is people are going to drop 100k+ for lighting setups ... Where they are going to profit a couple thousand dollars a batch... And it's going to take them 20 years to get there investment back. What you are saying makes sense to you.. But it's not reality . You cannot compare a successful small tent grow and think that it's going to be as successful on a large scale. Growers are getting upwards of 5 pounds per thousand watt lamp. I got 3.25 per light my last run and I am a noob...
> 
> Electricity costs are not strictly lighting ..the bigger the room, more fans more dehus more everything your going to need.. Lights are not where the power is being used.. So saving a little on light and compromising your yield..... Per fixture and sqft.. Is a god damn joke. And I know I can argue this til I'm blue in the face with you. But your not a commercial grower .. And if you ever are.. Your opinion on this is going to change.. Or it will be the beginning of one hell of a failure for you. Find me a fixture that you can pull over 3 pounds from 1 fixture.. Out of a 5x5 space . Hps is the ONLY way to go. And double ended is dope and all... But I'm doing just as good under my single ended fixtures . If you don't have 10 foot + roof space I think gavitas do more harm than good .


Time flies!...


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