# Vegan Organics Aka Veganics With Matt Rize



## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

Welcome fellow (and future) vegan organic gardeners. I'll begin by saying I've been working on a revolutionary growing system with ganja guru Kyle Kushman. He calls it Kushman's Veganics and it includes all aspects of gardening.

And secondly, I am not a vegan, nor do I promote a vegan diet for humans. I get my meat from the farmer's market, and it is spectacular, support local ranches and eff fast food. Sorry, I digress.

It's all about the medicine. We are literally making medicine for sick people, often people with severely compromised immune systems. So getting rid of the animal sources removes the risk of any weird animal pathogens being consumed. Remember my beautiful canna-friends, sick people often consume the medicine raw as juice.

It is also about reproducing nature. In the wild plants feed off of the soil. Soil is mostly broken down plants and some rocks. Very little of soil is of animal origin. So are you starting to see the idea? Broken down plants=good, rocks=okay in small amounts, animal origin=okay in very small amounts, chemical=no way!


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## moash (Sep 7, 2010)

lets hear what u gotta say professor


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## upthearsenal (Sep 7, 2010)

are worm castings vegan?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

With the theory out there, let's go to practice. Vegan is showing up on all sorts of labels these days, but the word itself means little. Most chemy nutes are vegan. What I am talking about when I say veganics is plant-based nutes. 

That brings us to the best nute company in the world, CANNA. Who else has the balls to directly label the product this way? I've never tested their chemy lines but have read great reviews. The BioCanna line is the backbone of veganics, and on a level all its own in the nute world. Don't you just love the smell of Vega and Flores? Yum, like molasses and soy sauce. If you are on a budget the BioBoost can be foliar fed, but both is better . One thing to note is that advanced gardeners will have to feed heavy and possibly supplement N in veg and P/K in flower for optimal results. The BioCanna website has lots of great info about the special process of plant fermentation and extraction used to make this unique line of nutes. They are sourcing from all over the world to make the best vegan organic plant-extract nutes.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

I won't give it all away right now, but for supplementation: natures nectars, soluble seaweed, humic/fulvic, teas, mayan microzyme, other-zymes, molasses

there are a few good options out there, and i'm still testing the different vegan options. 

i'd love an opinion on humboldt nutrients "natural bloom" 0-10-0...anyone?

and how do my canna friends feel about the cannazym change? different NPK, different color...?

don't be fooled by products labeled as vegan, but intended for hydro. read the labels and look for: plant extracts, kelp, molasses, soft rock phosphate, humic via leonardite, seaweed.

and smell the nutes, give them a look over. these companies change the formulas without changing the labels (AN).


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## stonedmetalhead1 (Sep 7, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> Welcome fellow (and future) vegan organic gardeners. I'll begin by saying I've been working on a revolutionary growing system with ganja guru Kyle Kushman. He calls it Kushman's Veganics and it includes all aspect of gardening, look for a high times article in the 420th issue, followed by a book and movie about VEGANICS!
> 
> And secondly, I am not a vegan, nor do I promote a vegan diet for humans. I get my meat from the farmer's market, and it is spectacular, support local ranches and eff fast food. Sorry, I digress.
> 
> ...


Are you saying your trying to get away from manure's and guano's? Animals are naturally responsible for fertilizing land and I don't see how it could be a bad thing.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

Then there is the media situation. I want to talk about Bio Terra Plus, BUT it's not available in the US (cali for sure) right now. ARGH! The Bio terra plus is on a level all its own right now in the media world. The price reflects that too...but it is amazing. I've read on here someone said to break it up, NO WAY, you are paying for the chunks. Research soil aggregate structure sometime. The diversity in the soil leads to microclimates. Microclimates lead to diverse microbe and beneficial fungi populations. Diverse populations lead to pH buffering, nitrogen fixation, root symbiosis, and overall pathogen resistance.

I want to big up Dr. VD before I go farther. I just found your thread yesterday. Like minds my friend.

Now I have to address perlite. Yes, the terra plus hold a lot of water. I can see how feeding more often in a lighter mix might make it easier to push nutes. I made the decision to go all natural, and perlite is not part of that. My grandmother taught me how to water soil that holds too much water. We'll get to water later.

To explain more: perlite is dead space in the microbial world. For me, it is not about feeding more, or more often. It is about maintaining a healthy root zone, and feeding both the roots and the microbes. The microbes in turn eat and their "poo" feeds the plants while I'm waiting to water again. By the time full roots have developed I'm watering my medium sized plants (in 4 gallon pots filled with terra plus straight outta the bag) about every-other day, just right IMHO.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

Some tips i've learned along the way (3 vegan runs complete):
- feed heavy, supplementation will be needed for advanced gardeners
- brew microbe teas, low NPK so no worries
- feed microbes, in the brewer and in the soil.
- IMHO and according to the microscope, BioBoost cuts flower time 3 to 10 days depending of course.
- feed all mixed nutes asap and flush your res/hoses/wand or whatever you top feed with
- oh yeah, top feed the bio canna line. too thick to drip or flood/drain.
- don't flush until the last week or two. no residues from veganics.
- no worries with a vegan garden. don't have to wash hands after, non-toxic nutes!
- also, if in the budget, the BioBoost can be used in small amounts at any time after flipping.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

stonedmetalhead1 said:


> Are you saying your trying to get away from manure's and guano's? Animals are naturally responsible for fertilizing land and I don't see how it could be a bad thing.


In nature, plants don't feed on poop primarily. Of course animals live/poop/die in the woods, but the soil is still made mostly of decayed plant matter. I'm talking about a purist/elitist (i guess, because BioCanna is kinda pricey) form of horticulture intended for people with compromised immune systems.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

moash said:


> sounds like advertisement to me...


i'm here to contribute and learn to/from the overall knowledge base of the community, don't hate.

i want to start a discussion about moving beyond organics for the sake of pure medicine. i don't mean to offend anyone. 

some veganic bubble tested at 57% THC, 4th highest ever at this particular lab. the bubble came from a first time grower who tried the veganic system.

i live organics, i smoke veganics


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> are worm castings vegan?


You know, that is the debate. I say don't worry about it if you trust the source. My garden is not 100% vegan, I believe the bio terra plus is not vegan as well.


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## upthearsenal (Sep 7, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> Then there is the media situation. I want to talk about Bio Terra Plus, BUT it's not available in the US right now. ARGH! The Bio terra plus is on a level all its own right now in the media world. The price reflects that too...but it is amazing. I've read on here someone said to break it up, NO WAY, you are paying for the chunks. Research soil aggregate structure sometime. The diversity in the soil leads to microclimates. Microclimates lead to diverse microbe and beneficial fungi populations. Diverse populations lead to pH buffering, nitrogen fixation, root symbiosis, and overall pathogen resistance.


bio terra is found in the US for sure


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## stonedmetalhead1 (Sep 7, 2010)

Over 50% of the Bio Flores is derived from Vinasse which is a by-product of sugar industry and rock phosphate. It's not a bad thing but $115 for 5 liters is ridiculous not to mention for a flowering nute it contains more nitrogen than phosphorus. I could just leave out the hops (I'm guessing it produces a large portion of the nitrogen) and use vinasse and rock phosphate for a fraction of that. 

Why wouldn't you just push making your own soil mix using plant and rock based material rather than pushing commercial products? This would save people a lot of money and still accomplish your objective.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

stonedmetalhead1 said:


> Over 50% of the Bio Flores is derived from Vinasse which is a by-product of sugar industry and rock phosphate. It's not a bad thing but $115 for 5 liters is ridiculous not to mention for a flowering nute it contains more nitrogen than phosphorus. I could just leave out the hops (I'm guessing it produces a large portion of the nitrogen) and use vinasse and rock phosphate for a fraction of that.
> 
> Why wouldn't you just push making your own soil mix using plant and rock based material rather than pushing commercial products? This would save people a lot of money and still accomplish your objective.


It is expensive, but I don't put a price on purity. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. 

HOPS is so closely related that it can be grafted to our plants and vice-versa. I think it is genius to break hops down and feed to back to the plants. The only thing better would be using hemp instead of hops.

I have nothing to sell. I want to tell the world that there is a level beyond organics and the nute industry is obviously responding to the popularity of vegan gardening. Hate if you must, but an evolution in organics is happening. I expect there to be haters, but Dr. VD knows what I'm talking about . So does general organics, and biocanna, and many other nute companies are developing vegan lines. Try it before you knock it. I too was extremely skeptical.

I would love some suggestions for a home-made mix that rivals the bio terra plus in pH buffering capacity and is natural. Or are you just talking sh*t? Do you have a white peat source that I don't know about? Have you put away your pH pen? 

For the advanced organic growers out there who love to hate: time will tell, we can agree to disagree. keep it positive friends.

and bio canna nutes are amazing, if you have a home-made mix that rivals that i would love to hear about it.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm testing CocoNot right now. It is a local by-product from our huge forestry industry here. It is cheap, and very simple, just redwood bark and a pH buffer. A "greener" choice than the bio terra plus.


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## stonedmetalhead1 (Sep 7, 2010)

No hate here I'm just curious because there are so many ways to go about this without using high dollar commercial fertilizers.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

But for newbs!!!!! Try the biocanna line!!! Don't listen to the haters. Your first time grow can be of the highest medicinal quality with no stress and no worries. Just follow the label and go!

And for pros: If you don't grow for money, go vegan and you will taste flavors never tasted before, and feel a perfect clear head high.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

stonedmetalhead1 said:


> No hate here I'm just curious because there are so many ways to go about this without using high dollar commercial fertilizers.


I smoke a lot. You guys understand. Paradoxically, I prefer the pain killing affect of kushes, while needing the uplift of sativas. And at the same time I have a lot of sh*t to do in my life. I try to stay as clear and as alert as possible, especially when i go rock climbing for fear of death by falling then smashing.

Organics has always been cleaner and more clear than the chem (again IMO). But when the affects wore off it often left me feeling groggy. With veganics I've found that goes away. The affects wear off and I don't get the yawns anymore. In addition I can medicate much more chill because the smoke is significantly smoother. I DON'T COUGH SINCE I SWITCHED TO VEGANICS!


i'm constantly trying to stand out from the crowd, this has made it so easy.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

moash said:


> typical advertisement
> canna everything,check out there website,nothing better
> whatever dude
> and im sure dr vd does know what ur talkin about cuz ur him.....and prob woomeister
> too many trolls here


REALLY? someone is a little paranoid...i blame the animal residues you are smoking...hehe jk. but not really!

Big up Dr. VonDank for getting this info out way before me!

what is a troll? and i don't know who or what woomeister is. i just joined yesterday because i wanted to share and get some feedback from other veganic gardeners. Is the organic forum not the place for that? I'll move this if there is somewhere better. Spread ideas not hate!


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## stonedmetalhead1 (Sep 7, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> I smoke a lot. You guys understand. Paradoxically, I prefer the pain killing affect of kushes, while needing the uplift of sativas. And at the same time I have a lot of sh*t to do in my life. I try to stay as clear and as alert as possible, especially when i go rock climbing for fear of death by falling then smashing.
> 
> Organics has always been cleaner and more clear than the chem (again IMO). But when the affects wore off it often left me feeling groggy. With veganics I've found that goes away. The affects wear off and I don't get the yawns anymore. In addition I can medicate much more chill because the smoke is significantly smoother. I DON'T COUGH SINCE I SWITCHED TO VEGANICS!
> 
> ...


There are plenty of ways to get smooth smoke from regular organics and if there is enough hash content it doesn't matter how smooth it is, you're going to cough.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> bio terra is found in the US for sure


OMG! Really? The Bio Terra Plus? Can I ask...in Cali? I heard it was coming back, but nothing definitive.


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## 420God (Sep 7, 2010)

I want to see some pics of these "Veganic" grows or I'm calling bullshit advertisement. Besides, everyone knows nothing beats real organics.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

stonedmetalhead1 said:


> There are plenty of ways to get smooth smoke from regular organics and if there is enough hash content it doesn't matter how smooth it is, you're going to cough.


Yes organics can be way smooth, but flushing is a serious issues as poo leaves residues. 

I don't really think that is true about resin content. I smoke PLENTY of full melt amazing bubble, and the organics makes me cough, while the veganic does not. again. i had to experience it to believe it.

and what is a troll?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

420God said:


> I want to see some pics of these "Veganic" grows or I'm calling bullshit advertisement. Besides, everyone knows nothing beats real organics.


you can go to kushmans's website if you want, he has picts and a trailer to his movie. but IM NOT an advertisement for him. i'll post some veganic blackberry kush nugs, but my camera is my phone..yuh know.

AND VEGANICS INCLUDES ORGANICS! all organic and vegan

I'll also say this. I've never had such high production of secondary pigments in many years of organics. The fan leaves went through a series of color changes as the fruit matured: green, light green, little red and orange, then lots of purple, then purple fades to yellow from the outside in. Simply beautiful re-creation of nature indoors!

I don't know how to post pics yet...guess I'm still learning to roll...


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## stonedmetalhead1 (Sep 7, 2010)

I've smoked plenty of weed that I couldn't even feel in my lungs, it felt like I was smoking air, only to cough my ass off after I completely blew my hit out. This is the response of lungs trying to expel unwanted irritants which hash is, know matter how pure. It also depends on the health of you lungs and the amount inhaled. I can take small hits off of anything and not cough but there is always a limit.

I'm not saying in any way what you're talking about is a bad thing I just think there are cheaper and easier ways to go about it and I've never heard of anyone having problems with pathogens from weed grown with manures or guano's.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

patlpp said:


> OK , you made your point. we got it.


thanks. if i had something to sell don't you think i would have pitched it. give veganics a try and you will never go back. i make no money from telling you how i grow, if anything i'm sharing my unique niche.

ps moash, i call myself professor because i teach at a university...no joke there.


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## upthearsenal (Sep 7, 2010)

coughing is because smoke is an irritant you are inhaling, smoke that is hot... either way, it's not logical to say smoke doesn't make you cough, kind of a paradox. 

idk if you were being sarcastic but yes you can find that stuff around if you look


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

stonedmetalhead1 said:


> I've smoked plenty of weed that I couldn't even feel in my lungs, it felt like I was smoking air, only to cough my ass off after I completely blew my hit out. This is the response of lungs trying to expel unwanted irritants which hash is, know matter how pure. It also depends on the health of you lungs and the amount inhaled. I can take small hits off of anything and not cough but there is always a limit.
> 
> I'm not saying in any way what you're talking about is a bad thing I just think there are cheaper and easier ways to go about it and I've never heard of anyone having problems with pathogens from weed grown with manures or guano's.



I agree wholeheartedly with you...much cheaper ways to do veganics, but for newbs and people who are super busy...excellent choice. Except on the hash thing I kinda disagree. There are two kinds of coughs: the "my lungs are glued together" cough, and the "irritants cough". Do you know what I'm talking about? 

I have heard of people getting sick from animal ferts (I'm one of them, and this is why I'm so into veganics).


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## 420God (Sep 7, 2010)

Coughing is normal even when I use my vape. Don't be retarded and say you can grow cough proof weed, that's just dumb.


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## stonedmetalhead1 (Sep 7, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> I have heard of people getting sick from animal ferts (I'm one of them, and this is why I'm so into veganics).


What kind of illness did it cause and how did you know what caused it.


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## 420God (Sep 7, 2010)

Bet it was "Mad cow disease". Oh wait, if you use bat guano you'll turn into a vampire.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> coughing is because smoke is an irritant you are inhaling, smoke that is hot... either way, it's not logical to say smoke doesn't make you cough, kind of a paradox.
> 
> idk if you were being sarcastic but yes you can find that stuff around if you look


Not sure I agree, and that is the beauty of paradoxes. Smoke is generally an irritant. But come take a huge chalice rip of some veganics with me and you will experience what I can only begin to describe. I call it the "delayed one cough or no cough" reaction, more of a gasp than cough. The left over veganic resin is different from organics as well, visibly more oily. 

A) smoke can be cooled to "not hot" temps really easily these days; diffusion stems, cooling coils, ect. Coughing is then a response to oxygen deprivation or particulate matter. i forget that people don't all filter their smoke. d'oh.
B) pure hash is more of an oil than plant matter. the particulates are so tiny from vaporized oils that coughing is from heat. try a completely cooled hash rip of veganics and you will see why I started this thread.


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## patlpp (Sep 7, 2010)

What is your take on General hydro's Vegan line, biothrive??


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

stonedmetalhead1 said:


> What kind of illness did it cause and how did you know what caused it.


i got a bacterial infection from some chicken poo. i collected it on an organic farm with some really awesome hippies. i sourced it myself and it was truly beautiful poo. we were so comfortable with it because it was freshly made by free roaming chickens. but im a nail bitter, and i got something nasty, my friend got it too. a couple weeks of confusion later and some antibiotics cleared it right up. rare worst case scenario right? but damn it got me thinkng...

and no one can say for sure it was the poo. an unknown bacterial infection for both myself and buddy same time right after harvesting the poo. who knows really with the chickens and the goats.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

patlpp said:


> What is your take on General hydro's Vegan line?


Meh, I talked to the guy who runs GH (it is a local company for me and he is a really nice nerdy guy). He didn't give me confidence in it or his organic line. I've been enjoying the diamond black humic. But I haven't tried his other stuff so won't "poo-poo" it .


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## upthearsenal (Sep 7, 2010)

don't get me wrong, i'm very interested in it. i'm a vegetarian myself and fucking hate a lot of products out there. but then again, buying things that are really expensive is something i also hate, i'm sure you could mix your own soil, controlling it's contents, and achieve soil that is just as good for a lot less expensive.


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## stonedmetalhead1 (Sep 7, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> i got a bacterial infection from some chicken poo. i collected it on an organic farm with some really awesome hippies. i sourced it myself and it was truly beautiful poo. we were so comfortable with it because it was freshly made by free roaming chickens. but im a nail bitter, and i got something nasty, my friend got it too. a couple weeks of confusion later and some antibiotics cleared it right up. rare worst case scenario right? but damn it got me thinkng...
> 
> and no one can say for sure it was the poo. an unknown bacterial infection for both myself and buddy same time right after harvesting the poo. who knows really with the chickens and the goats.


That sounds more like human error which could have been prevented and the end product grown with manures wouldn't be contaminated so you wouldn't be putting patients at risk with the herb you are supplying them. If you take proper safety and sanitation precautions when dealing with manures you shouldn't have any problems not to mention you can get a bacterial infection from any type of organic matter.


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## DownOnWax (Sep 7, 2010)

moash said:


> sounds like advertisement to me...


Yepers  

Vegan is the new "Buzz Word" now huh?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

DownOnWax said:


> Yepers
> Vegan is the new "Buzz Word" now huh?


 ----just the opening. i had to big up the person who opened my mind to this idea.

----for sure, but it should be "plant based" instead of vegan.

Vegan doesn't mean much in a world that includes rocks, minerals, and chem.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> don't get me wrong, i'm very interested in it. i'm a vegetarian myself and fucking hate a lot of products out there. but then again, buying things that are really expensive is something i also hate, i'm sure you could mix your own soil, controlling it's contents, and achieve soil that is just as good for a lot less expensive.


Yeah man, two years since I've been in a Safeway. Ten years without fast food. I don't remember what high-fructose corn syrup tastes like. Two farmer's markets a week here, all year fresh local food is plentiful. I love Cali!

I was on the home-made pure organics tip for a long time, this just makes my life easier. Switching to imported nutes and soil was a serious issue for me. But my first run with it was better to smoke than my best organic run ever. Not a bigger yield, not stinkier, not more resinous, just a better smoke, 100% white ash.

I'm looking for a Cali sourced soil mix (or anything comparable) that can compete with the terra plus. Anyone try rice hulls? Or know of a white/gold peat source in the US?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

BIO TERRA PLUS UNAVAILABLE? Anyone know something definitive? It disappeared without warning from shelves here in Cali, for fungus gnat issues (possibly other insects as well which isn't surprising because of the sticks and barks). On the shelves anywhere in the US?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

From one of you heros out there.

"Don't believe anything you hear from me.
Don't believe everything you read.
Don't believe in the man made Gods.
Do your own research it will set you free"


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> don't get me wrong, i'm very interested in it. i'm a vegetarian myself and fucking hate a lot of products out there. but then again, buying things that are really expensive is something i also hate, i'm sure you could mix your own soil, controlling it's contents, and achieve soil that is just as good for a lot less expensive.


well...options include: peat, coco, rice hulls, redwood bark, other barks, lots of pH stabilizer options, expanded clay, perlite (argh), rock minerals, organic wetting agent like cocowet...i'm missing the vegan meals right? cottonseed, kelp, neem seed, flax, soybean, sunflower...what else?

things i would like to exclude: animal meals & poops, chem, rockwool, other hydro media

and the terra plus has these big chunks of gold peat that I've never seen anywhere else. sustainable product...not likely.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2010)

title says it all. repost of veganic blackberry kush. so tasty, no cough...no sh*t! 

this round was super under fed...my dog died during the second week of flower. i fell apart and almost killed everything, thought i lost the whole round. thank the powers for mobile elements...but still. i dropped the ball this round and still made out well on veganics.

oh, and i should add, no horticultural oils, sulfur, azamax, serenade, or any of that was ever sprayed on these flowers, yet my room is far from sealed and i live in PM country.


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## upthearsenal (Sep 7, 2010)

well, i can give you the benefit of the doubt, that bud looks good man. i guess the only way to really believe is to grow it yourself, but really, i've always felt that elements are elements and as long as your plant has what it wants it will grow wonderful buds. you can deplete a plant of all chemicals/fertilizers well before harvest with a good flush, leading the plant to only use it's natural self-made sugars towards the end of it's lifecycle


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## Matt Rize (Sep 8, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> well, i can give you the benefit of the doubt, that bud looks good man.


thanks man, i love that we can have different opinions yet keep it positive and respectful (mado-d'oh). i was a huge skeptic to the veganic system that i'm on, but the proof is in the smoke, even more so than this pretty nug.

this prob isn't the spot for this but has anyone ever tried using SUCANANT for feeding microbes and as a finisher? I've been hearing about it a lot at the trim tables but love my molasses so much.

and any opinions on HYDROLYZED SOY protein, the plant derived N source in 5-0-0 nutes?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 8, 2010)

420God said:


> Besides, everyone knows nothing beats real organics.


and everyone knew that the world was flat until some people found out otherwise. same with the earth being the center of the universe. "facts" change with time.

my point is: don't knock it until you try it. nothing about vegan organics is not "real organics".


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## stonedmetalhead1 (Sep 8, 2010)

I was just wondering what type of a professor you are? What field?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 8, 2010)

stonedmetalhead1 said:


> I was just wondering what type of a professor you are? What field?


First: What? No comment on my pict. That is the first forum pict for me since overgrizle, my " 2nd cherry".

What field do you think? CANNABIS! 

I teach for a certain (in)famous oakland based "university". I've taught hundreds of students and they beg for post-class consultations. I've taught indoor, outdoor, hash, and cooking classes. Maybe I should call myself "paid guest lecturer" or "medical cannabis instructor" or something silly like that, but prof is more fun.

PLEASE, lets not make this thread about that school, and especially not about prop 19. I'm not here to advertise, but I am a public Cannabis activist. This is my life, and I go way beyond average to spread the knowledge that I've gained over the years. 

I spoke as the key-note speaker at the recent Central Coast Cannabis Symposium. I talked about veganics and high-yield techniques. That was fun. Should I go on?

Back to PLANT DERIVED EXTRACTS!


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## upthearsenal (Sep 8, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> I spoke as the key-note speaker at the recent Central Coast Cannabis Symposium. I talked about veganics and high-yield techniques. That was fun. Should I go on?


yes go on.. let's hear about these techniques


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## patlpp (Sep 8, 2010)

When ever someone proclaims him or herself as a "Professor" in these type forums , it means from the School of Hard Knocks, for fucks sake. It's not literal.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 8, 2010)

patlpp said:


> When ever someone proclaims him or herself as a "Professor" in these type forums , it means from the School of Hard Knocks, for fucks sake. It's not literal.


Thank you patpp. Some people just have to hate.

I don't know what to call someone who gets paid to teach adults in a classroom setting, maybe i'm just a teacher, but enough with semantics. And enough with the attacks, we are on the same team friend. 

and again, back to PLANT BASED NUTRITION...


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## Matt Rize (Sep 8, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> yes go on.. let's hear about these techniques


Hey, great. This I love this site! I think I should start a separate thread about HYT because the etiquette police have been all over my sack on this thread already. You know all this stuff already, nothing revolutionary like PLANT BASED NUTRITION!

I'll outline what I usually "present" in "lecture" (is that better semantically?  really?) 
This is separate from plant based fertilizers, which is really what this thread is about...
A) roots=fruits (IMHO) 
B) an early FIM (depends, but for me right now. yes)
C) breaking the inner hurd techniques (many, and they are hard to describe in words, more to come)
D) horizontal training
E) working with local regula...
F) foliar feeding flowers (great for plant based nutes!)
G) anything that speeds the life cycle, which i count as a HYT. like balancing MH & HPS at different times, light cycle triggers, metabolism boosts, the debate on intentional stress...
E) CO2...i could go on, new thread time.


BACK TO PLANT BASED NUTRIENTS...


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## Matt Rize (Sep 8, 2010)

stonedmetalhead1 said:


> blurry pic of some herb
> Where's the proof teach?


I do need a better camera than my crappy phone. Whatever though.

What can I say, professor is a half-joke because this an effing forum and I want to have fun. I do in fact get paid $200/hour to teach intelligent adults about cannabis, with powerpoint presentations, hands on participation, Q&A, all that good stuff. I enjoy teaching. Jealous is not a good look sir. 

Also, how do I prove that I finally don't cough anymore since i stepped it up from organic to vegan&organic? IDK Come hang out...other than that I'm attempting to flesh out this vegan organic trend and was hoping to join forces with others in perfecting this system. I have not perfected it to say the least...three runs is not enough for perfection.

I should have known that some canna-nerd hater would freak out about it (my name is made up too, surprised?) and miss the whole point. This is not about money or yield or even how high it gets you. Plant based, aka vegan, nutrients are becoming popular and it is about time somebody talks about it. If you don't want to know about plant based nutes, then piss off. 

If you've been reading all along...I've done three vegan plant based nutrient runs so far, after many organic. The feedback has been off-the-charts by the patients, and the microscope and quality of bubble tell the same story. Pictures can't explain everything that I've noticed different since I switched to plant based nutes. It has changed my quality of life...no more yawns. no more harsh throat. How can I prove quality of life to you?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 8, 2010)

AND BACK TO THIS THREAD: 

I've noticed some differences between organic and vegan organic gardening (for those who would like to know, otherwise eff off).

I'll start at the smell of the actual products. Not stinky like the fish products and the poo products for obvious reasons. I think vega and flores smell literally delicious. And they are incredibly viscous. More so than I'm used to with organics, which makes sense being a fermented plant extract. 

The safety factor. I always seem to be dipping my hand in my res, or getting splashed in the eye, or dripped on, or foliar feeding like a maniac, or something that involves either me getting covered in nute spray or potting mix. Now that there is no poop (IMO) I am not being exposed to any sh*t. Literally. 

Have you seen Humboldt Nutes new potting mix. It is certified FECAL COLIFORM FREE...very interesting (IMO)

Vegan nutes do have relatively short shelf lives (1-2 years usually). This is because they are a fresh plant product. Most of my food goes bad too.

I've seen 500+ gram plants on vegan organics, but that doesn't matter to me.

Has anyone heard of Bioaccumulation and Biomagnification? 

http://www.marietta.edu/~biol/102/2bioma95.html

For those who didn't follow the link: biomagnification refers to the accumulation of heavy metals as you move up the food chain. This obviously, relates back to PLANT BASED NUTRIENTS. "I am so smart, s-m-r-t D'OH" h simpson


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## Matt Rize (Sep 8, 2010)

Now I'll paint a picture...

Imagine yourself in Jamaica. Yeah mon, right down by da beach bwoi! You are chilling have a great time, rum punch in hand, in the shade, by the waves. Alright then, paradise. Yes-I. Now you see a seagull fly by and think 'hope it don't sh*t on me'. Back to paradise.

Then you go home and feed that shit to your plants, yuck. That bird went straight to the closest dump to feed. It ate human excrement, medical waste, dead people, who knows what! Then someone collected its poo, called it Jamaican seabird guano, and sells it in the stores. No thanks man, that sh*t ain't ital.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 8, 2010)

Now, with this great vegan organic energy going I want to touch on kelp and seaweed versus fish products.

One word. Biomagnification. Big fish are the most toxic food around!


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## patlpp (Sep 8, 2010)

I'm surprised you opt for pre-mix. I would think you would lean toward mixing your own. Heres what I'm going to try: Mushroom compost, CoCo, with perlite (why is perlite discouraged?) and GH Biothrive line. http://www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/biothrive.html?PHPSESSID=698e2b821c50e5b3d9c5e083652a14a1 Just grow/bloom and carbonate cal/mag

Thoughts?

EDIT: I'm getting second thoughts on the shroom compost, some has manure. The bag I got says it has none but it does have a butt-load of chlorine.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 8, 2010)

patlpp said:


> I'm surprised you opt for pre-mix. I would think you would lean toward mixing your own. Heres what I'm going to try: Mushroom compost, CoCo, with perlite (why is perlite discouraged?) and GH Biothrive line. http://www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/biothrive.html?PHPSESSID=698e2b821c50e5b3d9c5e083652a14a1 Just grow/bloom and carbonate cal/mag
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> EDIT: I'm getting second thoughts on the shroom compost, some has manure. The bag I got says it has none but it does have a butt-load of chlorine.


Yeah, I was mixing my own long-time until I gave the Bio Terra Plus a try, it is amazing. But it may not be the most sustainable natural product out there so the search continues. Shroom compost, now that's what I'm talking about! Plant based nutrition includes fungi!

I'm not a big fan of perlite for a few reasons, but I always seems to use a little.
First is that it is not natural.
Second is the irritant factor. The dust from that stuff is wicked to mucus membranes, and sick old people's skin can't deal with it. No debate there (i hope, ugh).
Third: you know you've been trimming and seen a piece of perlite on a bud once and a while. i don't like that. there could be perlite inside the flowers.
Fourth is the idea that perlite is a neutral media in terms of beneficials. Microbes don't thrive on perlite surfaces.

I would love to hear about result: GH Biothrive and coco. 

What do you mean "has a buttload of chlorine"? in the compost?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 8, 2010)

weak link, repost. just trying to say that there is a lot of immunocomprimised people doing indoor gardening these days. and who really knows what is in those bags of powder-poo? what makes you think a rotting pile of poo is better than organic fermented plant extracts? the microbes that thrive in mammalian digestive tracts may not be the best microbes for soil/soilless media. while the microbes that thrive on hops must be beneficial for its closest relative...in a plant CANNAbalism sense.

"The patient in this case presented with primary cutaneous nocardiosis secondary to gardening, resulting in the direct inoculation of the organism.7"

"Clinicians should note that cure rates for nocardiosis involving the skin and soft tissue are almost 100%; nevertheless, the outcome of treatment for this infection depends on the health of the host (particularly on whether the patient is immunocompromised), the extent of disease, and the site of infection"

http://www.jaapa.com/the-history-holds-the-key-in-this-gardener-with-a-skin-infection/article/124047/

"Their presence on fresh produce is not uncommon. Salmonella, E. coli O157:H7, Campylobacter jejuni, Vibrio cholerae, parasites and viruses can contaminate produce through raw or improperly composted manure,..."

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09369.html

Histoplasmosis:
"The fungus can be found naturally in soil but is more abundant in areas that are rich in bird and bat guano (Aufderheide 199 such as around farms, chicken coops, and in caves."

"Warm blooded flying mammals such as bats, however, can carry the disease (although further research documenting the manifestation of symptoms in bats could not be found) and excrete the organism in GUANO"

"Birds can spread the fungus directly by carrying it on their wings, feet and beak, and provide fertilizer for the growth of the fungus through their excrement. Because of this nutrient rich fertilizer, areas with strong bird populations are more likely to harbor actively growing H. capsulatum. Bats are unique carriers of histoplasmosis because they can carry it in their mammalian systems and excrete it in their guano. Bat guano is an ideal medium for the growth of histoplasmosis spores,..."

http://www.squidoo.com/Histo


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## upthearsenal (Sep 8, 2010)

most fecal matter sucks (imo of course), guano and worm castings are an exception. i don't agree that every animal is fed toxic shit so therefore their poop is toxic. the diet of most bats hasn't changed, there will always be bugs. 

and to be fair, that link to the article is reasonably irrelevant. there's not one mention of gardens, or fertilizers. only about shit that is years old and grows fungi. 

i too don't like perlite because it's dusty, but that's interesting to hear that microbes don't grow on it...


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## Matt Rize (Sep 8, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> i too don't like perlite because it's dusty, but that's interesting to hear that microbes don't grow on it...


So to follow that thought, a mix with 30% perlite has 30% less microbial life. Right?

On a tangent, and in response to some other post: It is not directly about the microbial count (IMO) when it comes to our systems and products(full of inoculants). It is about the microbial diversity, combined with what is able to survive in your mix, through many wet/dry cycles. By microbial I mean all beneficial microflora: endo/ectofungi, bacteria both free living and symbiotic.

Dumping microbes on all the time alone is not enough (IMO). Say the media is straight coco/perlite. Okay, that is literally one mill of coco, and perlite ranging in size but really all about the same. And if perlite is dead zone for microbes, assuming you always have enough air in your mix otherwise, then the perlite doesn't add to the rhizosphere microclimates. smoke break...

I would type a little "cough", but I don't anymore.  alright. So that mix is not diverse structurally. As nature has shown, diversity in structure equals diversity of organisms. Boo for someone who nurtures as much as he can out of the soil-food web using expensive fermented plant extracts. Let the tools do the work has always been my saying. In this case the microbes are our tools to produce flowers that are very close to flowers grown in top soil at natural rates (sub-atomically and in color), but at ACCELERATED RATES & INDOORS!

So no perlite means 100% natural. For the haters: My "one day you will me mine" potting mix, ala wayne's world: local, sustainable, extremely diverse in structure, as pH balanced and fluffy as the bio terra plus, and HOME-MADE. 

I also really enjoy the low charge the terra plus comes with. The bark is one microclimate, the multiple mills of peat are a few more, the coco, then the gold peat is something else altogether, and sticks. I believe it has a little guano in it...which is great. I'm not opposed to a little animal based organics, especially early. The terra plus is just so nice, and since the laws here are about compensation for expenses...


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## Matt Rize (Sep 8, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> and to be fair, that link to the article is reasonably irrelevant...


tried again. sorry, first time sucked.

440+ views in 36ish hours! First thread here! PLANT BASED NUTRIENTS, no sh*t 

i guess i learned to roll a joint sometime today! thanks friends!


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## Matt Rize (Sep 9, 2010)

My take on earth worm castings simplified: good if the worms were not fed sh*t

Earth worms inhabit the soil. The microbe populations in their guts breakdown soil and in turn feed the worms. This is kinda like the microbes in our soil feeding our plants. Very cool. Phylum Annelida rules!

The microbes in mammalian digestive tracts, especially omnivores like birds, are WAY different that the microbes in castings. Earth worm gut colonies are similar to normal soil colonies.

Are worm casting less of a "poo" than mammal leavings, I argue "yes". The same way omnivore poo is more "poopy" than herbivore poo.

Worm casting are in fact a broken down version of top soil. Soil can harbor the same pathogens as poos, but not nearly in the same concentrations. In addition, the biomagnification that can occur with mammalian diets does not apply to castings, which is basically just dirt that has been blindly passed through a simple gut.

For these reasons I say castings are "on" (IMO). If you trust the source, and what they have fed the worms used to produce the castings, then go for it. Earth worm casting can be an amazing natural product that work synergistically with PLANT BASED NUTRITION!


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## upthearsenal (Sep 9, 2010)

i cultivate my own worm castings, mainly because it's fun. i feed them mostly veg and fruit skins and they love it. idk, about it being less poo than mammals in general, it definitely is less toxic than most. at least the ones who don't have an all organic vegetarian diet. 

BUT, let's discuss plant based foliar feeding... you state foliar feeding flowers? now, to me that is counter-intuitive, but i guess if the solutions are not toxic, then you aren't spraying toxic material that will be later smoked... but it will be later smoked, would i want these foliar feeds on my flowers?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 9, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> but it will be later smoked, would i want these foliar feeds on my flowers?


not all vegan organic grows are the same, and i do not set the standards as it is just a school of thought in action.

i've thought about that as well, and prefer (IMHO) to do a plain water rinse after* foliar feedings. i mostly foliar the bioboost, which has little npk. i suppose i don't mind smoking a little plant derived hormone. it is a compromise for yield.

*not an exact science, just a rinse off

and sometimes, when difficulties arise (ie early yellowing due to underfeeding or whatevs), it is nice to have the option to foliar for corrections.

i argue with other vegan/organic growers about foliar feeding...old habits die hard


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## Matt Rize (Sep 9, 2010)

Title says it all, sorry my camera sucks. It was 108 outside the week this finished, so no temp tricks. Yet, there is very little chlorophyll, much secondary pigmentation, and NO COUGH!

Natural lighting and a cell phone. D'oh.

PLANT BASED HORTICULTURE!


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## upthearsenal (Sep 9, 2010)

haha, how about you make a vid, sit back out of frame, take a huge rip, release and prove there is no cough? 

i believe you can grow amazing buds like above with plant based nutrition, of course you can as long as you give them what they want/need. yet it's hard not to be skeptical when you say smoking this doesn't make you cough


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## Matt Rize (Sep 9, 2010)

another couple picts of the blackberry kush grown on plant based nutrients


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## Matt Rize (Sep 9, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> haha, how about you make a vid, sit back out of frame, take a huge rip, release and prove there is no cough?


filming this week..."no cough" example to come, no need to hide my face...this is what i do.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 9, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> yet it's hard not to be skeptical when you say smoking this doesn't make you cough


i appreciate the skepticism, in a beautiful scientific method sense. the lab (steep hill) is working on testing for heavy metal content, and I hypothesize lower levels in plant based flowers and concentrates. give thanks for research.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 9, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> don't get me wrong, i'm very interested in it. i'm a vegetarian myself and fucking hate a lot of products out there. but then again, buying things that are really expensive is something i also hate, i'm sure you could mix your own soil, controlling it's contents, and achieve soil that is just as good for a lot less expensive.


Wouldn't it be nice if the result of this thread is: a local/sustainable plant-based (99%) potting mix that kicks-ass, on the throw your pens away and feed hella hard level, that anyone can make at home while rivaling the bioterraplus. AND the development of a kick-ass plant based nute system that rivals the biocanna and supplements, that anyone could make from bulk products that are easy and not sketchy to obtain...I could die a happy man.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 9, 2010)

just a couple random buds. put up for whoever that was.


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## Nullis (Sep 10, 2010)

I have personally seen trichoderma on perlite (green perlite). Granted it isn't being broken down, but that is not its purpose. It is only there because it is porous and holds water. It is also perfectly natural, as far as I am concerned. Really it is just natural glass that has been further heated to more extreme temperatures so that it expands.

As far as your fecal ramblings go... No manures sourced from any omnivore would be organic anyways. Only from strict herbivores. Animals such as cows for instance, or chickens; they have plant based diets, is their manure not itself plant based? Beyond that manures are typically composted specially, or pasteurized which would kill any pathogens.
Ultimately, the majority of most natural (organic, vegan, whatever) fertilizer ends up being the result of another organisms excrement. Bat guano from bats, vermicompost/worm castings from earthworms (which have gizzards), kitchen compost from a great plethora of insect, bacterial, fungal, etc decomposers.

I mean the whole process of digestion is largely the result of a symbioses between other micro-organisms (flora) that are alive in each and every animals gut; helping break down the plant matter they have directly consumed. Thus chicken and cow manure is indirectly a result of _those_ microbes breaking that plant material down.

All this really sounds like is a rehash _of_ organics, only more finicky and minus any manures or excrement from any organism larger than an earthworm.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> haha, how about you make a vid, sit back out of frame, take a huge rip, release and prove there is no cough?
> 
> i believe you can grow amazing buds like above with plant based nutrition, of course you can as long as you give them what they want/need. yet it's hard not to be skeptical when you say smoking this doesn't make you cough


Upthearsenal, this one is for you. Way to keep an open mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C8-tMEk6T4

Other guy, this sounds like organics because it is. Just minus the poo, as you stated. Yes, I do draw lines between mammal poo and excrement from less complicated forms of life, very different microbes and risks associated (no one wants to take on biomagnification?). I don't consider home-made worm castings to be off limits. And the true benefit of plant nutrition is the way it smokes. More videos to come I'm sure because no matter what someone has to hate. Keep it coming friends, I got so much more...whatever it takes for you skeptics. Do I need to do a smoking then laughing (no cough!) series with different glass?

Again, I don't even believe me sometimes, try it for yourself and do it right, then talk sh*t.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

and I had to do another one incase the first one was too small or whatever, just trying to spark a POSITIVE conversation about PLANT BASED NUTRITION.

http://www.youtube.com/user/mattrize1?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/gjTUdOf4IK0


Edit post: that clever piece of glass (really three pieces of glass) is what I call my chalice. an entirely separate thread will be posted asap documenting the evolution of this form of smoking: ancient times, to jamaica, to east coast, to west coast. documenting InI collection of chalice's from around the world. im such a nerd. please keep this thread on PLANT BASED NUTRIENTS!


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## upthearsenal (Sep 10, 2010)

right on. i'm sure if you post one, then maybe discuss some of the products you use, idk. get rid of them confounding variables.

i'm starting a grow soon, and i'm going to create a mix according to this discussion, i doubt it'll be vegan, but i'm hoping to comprise it mostly of pbn.

what micro nutes do you use? i heard that using canna is good, but it lacks in trace minerals and you still get certain deficiencies when using their entire line...


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> .what micro nutes do you use? i heard that using canna is good, but it lacks in trace minerals and you still get certain deficiencies when using their entire line...


I've been using mineral matrix. its vegan and organic and all that. really low dosages too, just..you know...as needed. BOOM!

Mayan microzyme...I believe, is really good at freeing up micronutes in the rhizosphere. It's what I call a 'next generation product', but I'm sure I'll be hated on for that too.


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## Spanishfly (Sep 10, 2010)

I think I have some vegan credentials. I reprocess my rootballs - remaining soil with roots is chopped up and goes into my composter with green and brown materials as they become available- after a year a rich humus comes out of the bottom, which is refortified with horse manure and wormcasts and organic lime.

My composter - we call it the Dalek.



And my Russian comfrey fert is totally vegan.


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## upthearsenal (Sep 10, 2010)

mayan microzyme, $20 for 4oz? i'm not hating but i don't love it...


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> mayan microzyme, $20 for 4oz? i'm not hating but i don't love it...


that is why i mentioned the matrix first. i've only been working with the mayan for two rounds. i've found nothing else like it though; encapsulated and shelf stable microbe starter. it is not a nutrient that you just add to your res.

and this is where having a community helps, we get the bigger bottle and split it three ways.

one tsp/gallon goes a long way with this stuff. i don't use the listed strength (tbsp/gal) because i'm on a budget, i make sure to let it brew really well and feed it gradually to compensate.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

Spanishfly said:


> And my Russian comfrey fert is totally vegan.


Awesome DIY nute! PLANT BASED NUTRITION!


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

Looking for feedback about my picts and video uploads...c'mon friends. How's the blackberry kush look? No comments on the "NO COUGH" videos?


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## homebrewer (Sep 10, 2010)

Matt - can you explain to me how N, P and K and the other 14 essential macro and micro nutrients are different to a plant when they're coming from the your vegan source as apposed to being mined from the earth an put into a synthetic form?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

420God said:


> Blah blah blah. Lot of talk and that's it. Put up or shut up.


Well? Pictures posted, more theory, videos posted of the "no-cough" vegan smoke. And you can go to kushman's facebook page (not an ad, just a suggestion for eye candy) if you want to see what it looks like in vegan-organic kushland.


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## upthearsenal (Sep 10, 2010)

again, this is all hoopla until it's proven, and really you have to try it for yourself. for me, it's too expensive, bottom line, unless you work really hard at going about it cheaply. i have my proven methods and products, i can maybe add and or replace a few based on this thread. 

it's like vegan living, it's all good, but fucking expensive at times.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

homebrewer said:


> Matt - can you explain to me how N, P and K and the other 14 essential macro and micro nutrients are different to a plant when they're coming from the your vegan source as apposed to being mined from the earth an put into a synthetic form?


Well, it's a good thing I double majored in Chem and Bio. Life is about more than just elements...

Yes, I can explain on a molecular level why vegan organics is superior to traditional organics (edit:whoops you asked about chem), but it gets pretty crazy and theoretical (sub-atomic particle and electron spinning...) so that will have to wait for a full answer. 

The short answer is that you are missing the point altogether, which is: I'm concerned about way more than the basics elements. I'm thinking about environmental issues with animal products, heavy metal accumulation from higher trophic level's wastes, herb grown for anyone (including those who choose to be vegetarian or vegan in their lives), creating an advanced form of indoor gardening specifically for the medical dispenaries here.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> again, this is all hoopla until it's proven, and really you have to try it for yourself. for me, it's too expensive, bottom line, unless you work really hard at going about it cheaply. i have my proven methods and products, i can maybe add and or replace a few based on this thread.
> 
> it's like vegan living, it's all good, but fucking expensive at times.


I tried vegan living, it didn't feel right so I stopped.
I tried vegan horticulture, it felt better than ever before (and I worked at a top dispensary here in Cali and tried EVERYTHING).

BEST THREAD CONTRIBUTER EVER! Thanks man.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

homebrewer said:


> Matt - can you explain to me how N, P and K and the other 14 essential macro and micro nutrients are different to a plant when they're coming from the your vegan source as apposed to being mined from the earth an put into a synthetic form?


Really, synthetics versus organics? in the organics forum? by someone called "homebrewer"...maybe he brews beer ...google it friend.


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## homebrewer (Sep 10, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> Yes, I can explain on a molecular level why vegan organics is superior to traditional organics, but it gets pretty crazy and theoretical (sub-atomic particle and electron spinning...) so that will have to wait for a full answer.


Great, I'm looking forward to that answer. Should I check back in a few hours?


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## upthearsenal (Sep 10, 2010)

get into it as deep as possible, i want all the theoretical babel.

btw, synthetics destroy microbes, they may be the right elements, but they have added effects. with that in mind, maybe reducing the amount of damage, and increasing the life is the way to go; with the obvious, accurate amount of natural NPK


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## Nullis (Sep 10, 2010)

I use Mayan Microzyme (have to start aerating some today, in fact) but it is not actually a plant food. It is a bacterial-enzymatic complex, containing non-pathogenic aerobic and anaerobic bacteria that assist in biological nitrogen fixation, nutrient mineralization, breakdown of salts, increase in soil organic matter, enhanced nutrient uptake, produces hydrogen to regulate pH, etc. So it will allow for reduced fertilizer applications (especially those containing nitrogen), but you still must supply some kind of micro-nutrient formulation or ensure sufficient materials are worked into the soil which are capable of providing those nutrients.

First of all, you should maybe consider not being so defensive (and erratic). Not everybody here is 'hating', especially not myself. What I am saying is that much of what you are saying is something of a ridiculously extremist approach to organic gardening. It can be as simple or as complicated as one wants to make it. I feel that 'beginners' may glean more by educating themselves as best they can over a period of time; throughout which they could be using commonly available, less expensive and still fully organic materials including things like feather meal, poultry manure, guanos, and even blood, bone and fish meals. As the depth of knowledge increases, so can their customization of the components they use.
To exclude animal (herbivore) derived nutrients seems a lot like a rash over-reaction to me. Cannabis grown with such fertilizers, if grown properly _should_ smoke just as clean and smoothly, and taste just as good. If it does not, one reason could be because you've convinced yourself something alone the lines: "oh no! this bud wasn't grown _veganically_ *cough* *cough*".

Biomagnification is a problem that we humans introduced to the environment in the first place. Even so, it hardly applies to such things as poultry manure and bat guano. The most affected animals are the predators at the _top_ of the food chain, not the primary consumers of the second trophic level. The problem is that substances that would biomagnify, such as chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides like DDT, have long elimination half-lives and high lipid solubility (as well as being sparingly/not soluble in water). Thus, a compound like DDT can enter an organism from its environment, even if levels are low. The compound is not eliminated from the organism, and it is eaten by a predator. Except the predator will eat several of these organisms, not just one or two. Whatever DDT was in those organisms is now inside of the predator, where it will be transferred and stay trapped in adipose (fat) tissues. This predator also happens to be prey for another carnivore, that will again eat several of such animals. Whatever DDT had accumulated in the fatty tissue of the original predators (turned prey) now ends up being transferred and trapped in the fat tissue of whatever is higher in the food chain; so on and so fourth and DDT levels skyrocket many times over as we move up the food chain.
This is practically a non-issue for primary consumers (chickens, cows, bats, horses), which are almost at the bottom of the food chain and _only_ eat plant matter having virtually zero fat content.


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## upthearsenal (Sep 10, 2010)

do you use gravity or bushmaster? anything like that...

i've heard fucked up things about bushmaster, but i kind of want to try gravity


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

Nullis said:


> ridiculously extremist approach to organic gardening. It can be as simple or as complicated as one wants to make it. I feel that 'beginners' may glean more by educating themselves as best they can over a period of time;


Each newb gets to travel their own path to enlightenment...as it should be. But yeah, experience helps. Vegan organic hort is not complex at all. I would argue that it is more simple. No pHing, No ppm, healthier plants are easier to care for. Plus, no washing up after...and more and more vegan lines are becoming available.

I do not exclude herbivore excrement indiscriminately. My point is: think about your sourcing! Home-made castings; awesome! Horse crap from organically fed horses; sounds great! But birds are generally not discriminate eaters, and tropical islands can also be giant refuse sites.

My other point is: in nature; plants are fed mostly by microbial life in the rhizosphere. Again, the majority of plant nutrition comes from symbiotic (and free living) bacteria/fungi in the soil. The beautiful part of this relationship that no one talks about is what the microbes get from the plants. It is a give/take relationship, that makes both microbes and plant more resistant to pathogens. these bacteria and fungi feed primarily off of broken down plant matter. YES, there is animal matter (of all sorts) in nature, and rock minerals too! but soil is more plant than poop. 

simplified: poop minus nutrient content equals residue (we'll call is poop-shell for fun). fermented plant extracts minus nutrient content equals nothing.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> do you use gravity or bushmaster? anything like that...
> 
> i've heard fucked up things about bushmaster, but i kind of want to try gravity


Have not tried either of those. I just use bioboost, and nature's nectar for P, and technaflora seaweed for K. YES, nature's nectars P is not plant based. SEE, I'm not a strictly vegan gardener.

I don't have to explain to that one guy the difference between chem and organics do I? I'm sure it has been examined at length on here somewhere...back to PLANT BASED ORGANIC HORTICULTURE!


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> get into it as deep as possible, i want all the theoretical babel.
> 
> btw, synthetics destroy microbes, they may be the right elements, but they have added effects. with that in mind, maybe reducing the amount of damage, and increasing the life is the way to go; with the obvious, accurate amount of natural NPK


YEAH! Someone who, obviously, cares more about highest quality and natural systems, than how many grams per watt per day. More life! Good vibes!
I assumed this was the place to talk about expensive new products and new schools of thought in the canna-hort world. The angry home-made energy took me by surprise, but I should relax. 
HB- I don't want to get into synthetics in the organics forum...BOOO HISS

Plant based theoretical babble to come.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

So a little babble about feeding your microbes molasses (or whatever you use), which I know I'm going to get called out for. Just part of what I'm into, not technically a vegan thing.

The relationship between plants and microbes are symbiotic. The microbes do all sorts of things in the rhizosphere, we don't have to cover all that. Simplified: the microbes/fungi feed the roots and, in a way, expand the root surface area exponentially. The plants in turn feed the fungi/mirobes with photosynthetic products, that is the other side to this symbiotic relationship. 

Normally, in nature, that is beautiful: ying-yang, give-take, natural cycle of things. But in our indoor container environments, I will argue (technical for IMO), that feeding the microbes directly allows the plant to keep more of its photosynthetic products for itself. This allows the plant to benefit from the symbiotic relationship without forcing it to give back it's fair share. Discuss


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## upthearsenal (Sep 10, 2010)

as a side note, you should start a grow journal for your next grow, that would be a great contribution


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

funny line i use every public speaking occasion: "you want to know the truth, try it yourself. if you put five growers in one room and ask them how to grow weed you will get ten answers."

PLANT BASED ORGANICS!


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## upthearsenal (Sep 10, 2010)

right, feeding your microbes directly, you argue that they get less in return from the plant in an indoor environment, but HOW do you argue this? to me, even if you have more microbes the plant will still give back accordingly.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> right, feeding your microbes directly, you argue that they get less in return from the plant in an indoor environment, but HOW do you argue this? to me, even if you have more microbes the plant will still give back accordingly.


misunderstanding here possibly. my theory is: we (all organics) are growing based on the health and metabolic products of microbial life. and that a HYT for all organics is to feed the microbes at key times in the life cycle so the plant does not have to. this also has to do with compensating for the terra plus, which is actually soil-less, and helping the microbes thrive.


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## upthearsenal (Sep 10, 2010)

right on, so do you have a time-line for this? maybe considering something besides terra plus


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

BACK TO PLANT BASED ORGANICS

The practical reality of plant based organics is that there are no residues left over from feeding in the media, unlike animal organics. Everything that is fed is consumed/assimilated/brokendown/ect after every feeding, by the roots/microbes/fungi. There are no residuals, or left overs which include heavy metal accumulations. The practical soil level difference between animal organics and plant organics in a nut shell. 

The terra plus also comes with very little charge, which is why common issues are deficiencies. But not having a charge lets me decide where 99%* of the food comes from for both the veg and flower cycles.

This means you get to control your NPK as precisely as you desire (for the control freaks out there).

*number I pulled out of my butt.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> right on, so do you have a time-line for this? maybe considering something besides terra plus


By time line, I think you mean: what specific parts of the life cycle? right?

This gets totally unprovable, and everything I do is based off of theory and feedback from patients.

DISCLAIMER: I am only suggesting that plant based organics has benefits over animal based (depending on morals and priorities of course). Help me test that theory by giving it a try. Animal organics has been tested...to the Moon and beyond!

I like to feed microbes molasses all the way through, I step it up and down (concentration wise) as I raise and then lower the food (concentration).


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

I would also like to address the fact that extremely sick people (AIDS, cancer, ect) are juicing fresh raw cannabis, not just the flowers. This obviously leads us to concern about what is in the garden environment, and what the plants have been exposed to. I'll take my fresh canna-juice "poop-free" please.


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## Nullis (Sep 10, 2010)

How can you say that there are any 'residues' (things that would otherwise not be present) left over from using herbivore animal excrement as fertilizer in soil? Going back to a point I was trying to make in a previous post: where do you think such excrement (we're talking herbivores here) was actually derived from? That's right...PLANTS! The animal (might) masticate it, stomach acids may initiate the break down; enzymes and microbes are ultimately what turns it into 'poop'. After that whole process the plant-based-poop is further decomposed by more microbes in the outdoor environment, while it is composted and then probably pasteurized before it ever becomes fertilizer.
As far as heavy metals go; some 'botanically derived' fertilizers might actually end up containing _more_ of some heavy metals than their animal-derived counterpart. As a random example, take this brand of alfalfa meal and compare it to the liquid Earth Juice Grow that I use (the Bloom has even less).

Now you're referring to this predicament as "animal organics" versus "plant organics" when in reality organic gardening incorporates the use of both plant _and_ animal excrement derived nutrition (as it has for thousands of years). All it boils down to is that all of this really isn't as novel as you try to make it out to be. The way things currently stand: I use organic fertilizers like the Earth Juice which includes guano, blood/bone meal and other products that contain feather meal, alfalfa meal, poultry manure, fish emulsion, molasses and a plethora of other sources. I have beneficial bacteria, mycorrhizae and other symbiotic fungi, along with assorted microlife living in my soil; I do not concern myself with pH nor do I own a 'pen'.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

Nully- I love that you group biocanna with a product like a meal, different universe entirely. 

We cannot simply say organics is based on vegetarian fed animal poop and plant products, because it is generally not. I'm talking about all organics, as it applies to the whole of it.
I do heavily prefer vegetarian fed animal products over omnivorous animal poop. Very different microbes and associated risks. You can't just say, "my poop is all from vegetarian sources so you (me) are on some bs." c'mon really? we are doing the same thing, but I'm taking it farther. cutting out the "middle man" if you will.

The reason you prefer veggie poop over omnivore poop is...?

Earth Juice, m'eh. Next.


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## Nullis (Sep 10, 2010)

I said absolutely nothing about 'biocanna', and you're missing the point entirely. (what a surprise) Just because a plant food is botanically derived does not equal no heavy metals. In fact, the liquid plant foods I am currently using are quite low in heavy metals.

Manures from omnivores (which would also be eating meat, and which I never mentioned in the first place) obviously wouldn't be organic. Then you would have a diet consisting at least partially of animal tissues; fats, proteins, etc. and there is where heavy metal accumulation might become a concern (as it is with night soil).

Now that it is clear that you are not actually reading and/or fully comprehending what is being said here (and because you're all over the freaking place), I digress and wish you good luck with the conversation you are having with yourself. May I just advise that in the future, when you went to introduce some concept that you feel is novel and exciting; you might want to get all of your ducks in a row and something like a solid description that includes practical information and references from the outset.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

Nullis said:


> Manures from omnivores (which would also be eating meat, and which I never mentioned in the first place) obviously wouldn't be organic.


Well, manures from omnivores is really what this thread is about (the negative part at least). 

Is that true? Peruvian Seabird guano is OMRI. I count that as a guano from an omnivore. Just saying, I'm a crazy hippy purist who is not satisfied with using poop* to make medicine. 

*poop, a word which has many levels of gross, is basically all i'm suggesting.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

Nullis said:


> ...(and because you're all over the freaking place), I digress and wish you good luck with the conversation you are having with yourself.


A) super high on some veganic blackberry kush.
B) treating this more as a blog than a lesson plan. sorry, i do talk to myself...maybe i'm crazy from all the reefers 
C) and yes, barely reading your posts.
D) uptheA has been a shining light on this thread, span fly too. there are others. time will tell.
E) this thread was completely unplanned and spur of the moment
F) i have barely begun talking about the details. busy replying to attacks.

over 700 views in two days! the world wants to know about plant based nutrition!


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

"What is the biggest negative consequence of collecting guano?

Loss of biodiversity. In bat caves in particular a large variety of invertebrates and fungi live on the guano and it is reduced in population as a result of collection. Bats also do not like to be disturbed and it does reduce their population as the collectors interfere with their breeding cycle. It is almost impossible to collect guano commercially without disturbing the host species."

http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/Bird-droppings-and-guano-309829.html

I love bat guano, prefer it way over bird or fish. Just pointing out that animal products can have positive and negative sides.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

Hey! From one of us!

http://www.growkind.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30861

"Don't Buy Jamaican Bat Guano
I have bought a bag of Jamican Bat Guano. Now I know better. I felt I had to spread the word since alot of us have or may eventually use it. 

Check out the link, this is the summary:

"Removal of Jamaican Bat Guano damages Jamaican Caves; Jamaican Bat Guano should never be used for commercial purposes; Jamaican Bat Guano is sold as an organic fertilizer by unscrupulous retailers, that will be used in growing Ganja; Jamaican Bat Guano should never be bought or sold; Jamaican Bat Guano contains paleoclimatic records; Jamaican Bat Guano contains fossils; removing Jamaican Bat Guano will result in the elimination of the Jamaican bats that produced the deposits; Jamaican Bat Guano can carry histoplasmosis and can be hazardous to your health. To summarize, if you buy Jamaican Bat Guano you are helping to destroy the bat caves of Jamaica."
http://www.jamaicancaves.org/jamaican_bat_guano.htm

and 

"Bat guano, often used as an organic fertilizer in the production of marijuana, is usually mined in caves, and is associated with a corresponding loss of troglobytic biota and diminishing of biodiversity. Guano deposits support a great variety of cave-adapted invertebrate species, which rely on bat feces as their sole nutrient input. In addition to the biological component, deep guano deposits contain local paleoclimatic records in strata that have built up over thousand of years, which are unrecoverable once disturbed.

The greatest damage caused by mining to caves with extant guano deposits is to the bat colonies themselves...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guano

Edit: There are guano escavators that actually help protect and preserve bats and caves such as done with Puruvian Seabird Guano."
__________________


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

Or this one here: which explains how important your sourcing be for guanos. can be good, can be bad.

http://planet.earthclinic.com/garden/organic-fertilizer.html

BAT GUANO

07/21/2010: ECP Staff writes: "To be certain that your bat guano is organic, safe, and is collected through bat-friendly harvesting practices (particularly important now, as white-nose syndrome sweeps across US bat populations), you can look for a few indicators. Unfortunately, the word "organic" in this case is very unreliable. However, the Organic Materials Review Institute (OMRI) certifies organic fertilizers, including guano. Likewise, any company that sustainably harvest bat guano fertilizer is likely to make a BIG DEAL ABOUT IT ON THE PACKAGING <."

07/20/2010: ECP writes: "Guano was more or less the first large-scale commercial fertilizer, before the chemical fertilizers hit the market. It was also something of an environmental hazard itself, as whole islands were stripped mined for guano and ecologically insensitive guano collection methods still harass bats to death in their own caves. However, properly sourced bat guano is aged for antiseptic safety and collected sustainably from bat caves when bats are away from the cave on seasonal migration. A variety of bat guano fertilizers exist with different NPK ratios, but guano is generally high in nitrogen and often high in phosphorus as well. "


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

"Fish hydrolysate is the best option really. Emulsion's are usually full off heavy metals and other nasty shit."

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/188909-fish-fertilizer-fish-emulsion.html

LOL! From within!


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

"The definition of organic as written in the proposed national organic standards lacks the holistic approach central to organic practices. The proposed rules take a reductionist approach to organic food production that eliminates key concepts such as the health of the agro-ecosystem and biodiversity on the farm."

This guy makes a point, organic doesn't mean enough...sh*t lost the link. Next.

"Seabirds in the Arctic act as &#8220;funnels,&#8221; concentrating toxic chemical compounds collected from elsewhere and carried in their excretions into &#8220;hot spots&#8221; in terrestrial Arctic ecosystems, on land and in freshwater lakes"

http://www.geotimes.org/sept05/NN_birdpoop.html


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

Word of the day: BIOVECTOR! 

I'm not the only one thinking about trophic levels and bioaccumulation of metals. This is not a study as to whether marine birds are biovectors (they are), this is a look at potency related to diet. http://www.pnas.org/content/107/23/10543.abstract

"We investigated whether seabirds that feed at different trophic levels vary in their potency as biovectors of metals, which can bioaccumulate through the marine foodweb....We show that the seabirds carry species-specific mixtures of metals that are ultimately shunted to their nesting sites. For example, sediments from the tern-affected pond recorded the highest levels of &#948;15N and the greatest concentrations of metals that are known to bioaccumulate, including Hg and Cd. In contrast, the core from the eider-affected site registered lower &#948;15N values, but higher concentrations of Pb, Al, and Mn."


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

"The birds, it seems, are eating carrion, squid, and other marine animals from POP-contaminated seas. The flyers then return to their coastal home and deposit their contaminated prey&#8212;in the form of excrement&#8212;in local ponds, which see their POP levels skyrocket as a result."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0714_050714_arctic.html


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## Matt Rize (Sep 10, 2010)

and back to PLANT BASED ORGANICS

Lost along the way:
Opinion's on humboldt nutes natural flower 0-10-0? plant based organics i believe...
Anyone here friends with Dr. VonDank? Tell him; we need him.
Vegan line from GH? Anyone test it yet?
Feeding microbes in the soil with molasses (or whatevs); anyone got a take on that theory?
Who wants to tackle the posts about seabirds as biovectors, or guano harvests destroying biodiversity, or fish emulsion being gross?

And the benefits of nutes from farmed hops and beet by-product, plants that got fed (traditional) organics .
Versus the environmental impacts of wild harvested products...? Overfishing, global insect and bat population decreases...

By using bio canna plant based organics you are supporting organic farming instead of wild harvesting...if you gotta buy something premade.
So your plants are 100% great to ferment/extract and feed to my plants, jk


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## Matt Rize (Sep 11, 2010)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/30/world/americas/30peru.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&ei=5070&en=634f690609629f06&ex=1212811200&emc=eta1

On exploitation of natural resources:

We are recovering some of the last guano remaining in Peru,

"There might be 10 years of supplies left, or perhaps 20, and then it will be completely exhausted, said Mr. Ropón, referring to fears that the seabird population could be poised to fall sharply in the years ahead. It is a minor miracle that any guano at all is available here today,..."

In reference to harvesting methods and safety in Peru:

"Many go barefoot, their feet and lower legs coated with guano by the time their shifts end in the early afternoon. Some wear handkerchiefs over their mouths and nostrils to avoid breathing in guano dust, which, fortunately, is almost odorless aside from a faint smell of ammonia."

About the possibility of running out of peruvian seabird poop:

"Uriel de la Torre, a biologist who specializes in conserving the guanay cormorant and other seabirds, said that unless some measure emerged to prevent overfishing, both the anchovetas and the seabirds here could die off by 2030"


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## kingofqueen (Sep 11, 2010)

Just caught your thread here man .

Doesn't vegan = organic ?


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## kingofqueen (Sep 11, 2010)

Lol mabey I,m a vegan . I hate relying on fast food and supermarket products that can be prepared at home . I hate corporations hence why I don,t buy in to all the "Cannanutes" .

Thats awesome you have been so long without fast food and the grocery store . I bet it feels good knowing all your money is'nt going to corporate america or overseas ! Good job man !

If society as a whole lived this way we would't have near the problems we do today in society . Nobody knows how to earn they just look for the easy out !


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## quietguy420 (Sep 11, 2010)

Your nuggets look delicious sir!


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## kingofqueen (Sep 11, 2010)

Who's nuggets?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 11, 2010)

kingofqueen said:


> Who's nuggets?


my nuggets! a few pages back.

vegan & organic blackberry kush in bio terra plus. flowered 8 weeks.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

Just some random shots of random nugs...blackberry kush grown using plant derived nutrition and life, aka vegan organics, aka veganics.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

kingofqueen said:


> Just caught your thread here man .
> 
> Doesn't vegan = organic ?


Yes, that is why I called this thread vegan organics. I wanted to stress that everything I'm using is certified organic. 

In the world I live in it is all about making medicine that is safe for the most ill of patients to consume, often raw as juice. I am going beyond organics, cutting out the animal products that I don't trust for a few reasons: environmental issues, human rights issues, health issues, and best of all...BETTER HIGH AND BETTER SMOKE!


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

If you don't believe me, here is another thread from Dr. VonDank about vegan organics.

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/248826-veganics-dr-vondank.html


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

And for those who want more eye candy...

You can check out many more vegan organic cannabis hi-def pictures and videos at kushmanveganics.com or his fbook page.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> "The birds, it seems, are eating carrion, squid, and other marine animals from POP-contaminated seas. The flyers then return to their coastal home and deposit their contaminated prey&#8212;in the form of excrement&#8212;in local ponds, which see their POP levels skyrocket as a result."
> 
> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0714_050714_arctic.html


Carrion? Marine animals? Hardly the bottom of the food chain...POP=persistent organic pollutants


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

kingofqueen said:


> Thats awesome you have been so long without fast food and the grocery store . I bet it feels good knowing all your money is'nt going to corporate america or overseas ! Good job man!


Hey thanks. I also host a CSA, community supported agriculture, for a small organic ranch. Once a week people come by and pick up fresh food from my porch, no store, no market, no tax. Support your local organic farmers!


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## upthearsenal (Sep 12, 2010)

+ rep for the LOF ^ 

i've been looking into the vegan GH line for my hydroponics, it seems pretty decent but in the end i don't think you can use the lucus formula with them, so i decided against it.


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## upthearsenal (Sep 12, 2010)

so as discussed earlier, when do you feed your microbes molasses? are there certain indications when you know the ideal feeding time?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> so as discussed earlier, when do you feed your microbes molasses? are there certain indications when you know the ideal feeding time?


My water prep includes a few steps before I add my nutes. I use a prefilter, and a tall boy. No RO for me, just my personal choice living in an area where water restrictions are common. I let the pulled water sit and bubble for a day.

This brings us to chloramines in city water, which I haven't looked at in depth. I've recently been getting asked about added chloramines that don't "bubble" off like traditional chlorine. Still need to look into that...always something to research.

After filtering and bubbling, but before adding nutes, I add soluble myco/bacteria and molasses, all the way through pretty much. I also add teas to the res before adding nutes. 

When growing more indica/kushy strains I've found flowering comes in bursts. As opposed to sativas which flower more gradually (IMO). So, when I anticipate this burst in flower growth I step up the food and the molasses, to let the plant add as much biomass as possible during these key times in flower mass development.


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## kingofqueen (Sep 12, 2010)

Are you gonna post a grow ? Or just constantly push Veganics . would be interesting to see You with a grow in progress otherwise this seems to be blah blah blah just another twist on organics . No offense just being honest . I support organics totally .


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

kingofqueen said:


> Are you gonna post a grow ? Or just constantly push Veganics . would be interesting to see You with a grow in progress otherwise this seems to be blah blah blah just another twist on organics . No offense just being honest . I support organics totally .


This thread was totally unplanned, made obvious by my cannabinoid saturated ramblings. This is a twist on organics, of sorts.

Next round currently rooting at a buddies. Life without plants feels weird, but time off for traveling is nice if you can afford it.

Grow journal to begin shortly. Thanks for calling me out on my lacking; unplanned thread. I did not expect this many view so quickly (1000+ in four days!). I've been needing to do a properly documented grow journal forever, at least I finally made it to California and have become a public Cannabis activist/educator. Last round was overshadowed by the death of my best friend, to go back to those pictures I have to go through all the pics of her dying...too much right now.

Next round will be even better! And documented! But, not in my media of preference, Bio Terra Plus. So it will be hard to compare as that is a huge factor.

High def 'plant based organics' grow posts on kushmanveganics.com and his fbook page if you want to check out more images...not an ad, he just has pro photographers. We don't run the exact same system. Intentionally not posting links.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

From: http://www.goveganic.net/spip.php?article53

"Animal-based fertilizers, like manure and blood meal, often come from animals that were not raised organically. They may have been exposed to chemicals, GMO feed, hormones, and antibiotics. Veganic growers can maintain fertility on their own holding using completely organic plant-based techniques, ensuring that the entire cycle of agriculture is 100% organic.

There are growing concerns about chemicals used in food production and contaminants found in the food supply. Choosing to grow food organically is a step in the right direction, because substances like pesticides, herbicides, and GMO&#8217;s are not intentionally added to the farmland. Unfortunately, these substances can still make their way to organic fields. While organic farmers are permitted to use animal-based fertilizers like manure, blood meal, and bone meal, these fertilizers may be contaminated with substances that are CONTRARY to the aims of organic agriculture.

For example, when farm animals are fed pesticide-tainted food, certain pesticides BIOACCUMULATE in the bodies of the animals, resulting in animal-based fertilizers that still contain pesticides. Bone meal has been implicated in the spread of mad cow disease, causing some people to become wary of bone meal used in vegetable agriculture. Antibiotics that are given to farm animals can be found in the animals&#8217; manure, and certain antibiotics are actually absorbed by vegetables, causing concern about antibiotic resistance (see the University of Minnesota studies, published 2005 and 2007).

For farmers and gardeners who would like to grow cleanly-sourced organic food, the fertility in veganic agriculture is maintained using plant-based techniques, with minimal use of off-farm inputs. This can be cheaper and less energy intensive than importing organic animal products from neighbouring farms, and by producing your own sources of fertility, you can ensure that the production cycle remains COMPLETELY organic."


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## kingofqueen (Sep 12, 2010)

Right on ! He does have some great pictures I checked him out and the mission statement there is clear and concise as to explaining what vegan organics actually is . Pretty interesting over all I think . But I also think it,s kinda of an advanced technique . I,m just do " Simple "
organics I like to call it . Organic based soil with kelp based organic fertilizer . I,m still learning but having some good sucess to this point with my current grow. There are some many how ,why ,this and that diff ways people push trying to grow , so I,m keeping it simple and learing to read my plants . Less is more ! and less varibles to try to control .


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

Also from same site, but from the consumer's perspective.

"Eating 100% organic food
Organic food is frequently grown using animal waste, but these animals have often been exposed to pesticides, chemicals, antibiotics, and hormones (except for a small number of farmers who source their manure from organically-raised animals or raise animals on their own farm). In veganic agriculture, because the food is grown using organic plant-based techniques, it&#8217;s possible for the farmers to keep the cycle of agriculture 100% organic.

There are growing concerns about chemicals used in food production and contaminants found in the food supply. Choosing organic food is a step in the right direction, because the farmer is not intentionally adding substances like pesticides, herbicides, and GMO&#8217;s to the farmland. Unfortunately, however, these substances can still make their way to organic fields.

Organic farmers are permitted to use animal-based fertilizers like manure, blood meal, and bone meal, but these are not necessarily sourced from organically-raised animals. Many organic farms, especially large-scale operations, amend their fields with animal by-products from conventional factory farms and slaughterhouses.

The by-products of these animals can be contaminated with substances that are contrary to the aims of organic agriculture. For example, when farm animals are fed pesticide-tainted food, certain pesticides bioaccumulate in the bodies of the animals, resulting in animal-based fertilizers that still contain pesticides. Bone meal has been implicated in the spread of mad cow disease, causing some people to become wary of bone meal used in vegetable agriculture. Antibiotics that are given to farm animals can be found in the animals&#8217; manure, and certain antibiotics are actually absorbed by vegetables, causing concern about antibiotic resistance (see the University of Minnesota studies, published 2005 and 2007).

For consumers who would like to eat cleanly-sourced food, talk to local organic farmers about how they fertilize their fields, or phone the companies whose exports you purchase. Some small farmers do make the effort to get animal products from organically-raised animals, but you&#8217;ll find that many farms are fertilizing their fields from contaminated sources.

In veganic agriculture, farmers use plant-based techniques, and are encouraged to produce as much fertility as possible on their own land, which minimizes the chance of contamination. We recommend that concerned consumers get involved and actively engage with local farmers, to promote these techniques for creating a clean food supply."


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

kingofqueen said:


> Right on ! He does have some great pictures I checked him out and the mission statement there is clear and concise as to explaining what vegan organics actually is . Pretty interesting over all I think . But I also think it,s kinda of an advanced technique .


Thanks man! High def cameras do justice, relative to using the 4x feature on my droid camera. I promise you all to document my next round.

Simplicity is key to life. I view this as simple in terms of nutrition and natural pathways. One day, when I have land and don't live in a concrete jungle, I won't buy a damn thing.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

Or this page is interesting: http://www.friendsofanimals.org/actionline/fall-2004/veganics.html

"There&#8217;s nothing new about embracing biodiversity and using decomposing plant matter to grow plants. It&#8217;s the very basis of natural growth. The best example is the forest, whose fertility comes from the accumulation of plants on the surface, without anyone working the soil and without artificial additions of animal manure"


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

All sorts of vegan-organic organization exist worldwide. It is also known as stock free organic farming, and "green" organics.

http://www.veganorganic.net/links.htm


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

Here goes a discussion that I had no part in about the smoking quality of some vegan organic flowers. To quote the person who actually tried it and isn't just hating: "...i mean i actually smoked some of the stuff grown with it and its substantially smoother and a cleaner high." BOOM

Of course there are opinions on both sides, but the guy who actually tried it liked it. I can't make this sh*t up.

https://tokecity.com/forums/archive/index.php4/t-37978.html


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

And another review of some vegan organic herb: "Their herb was hands down the smoothest, best tasting herb I've ever had..."

http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f6/kyle-kushman-veganic-project-23109/


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## homebrewer (Sep 12, 2010)

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

Here goes more on vegan organic gardening. Something about horse manure, which I was asked about earlier.

http://www.flyingbeet.com/veganic.html

"In 2007 The University of Minnesota completed an empirical study of our "crazy" Veganic claims (see below), and guess what? We were proven RIGHT!

Organic crops grown using factory farmed manures and offal are now PROVEN to take up the toxic products used in those factory farms! People buying USDA Certified Organic products and thinking they are avoiding the chemicals that poured onto factory farms (and into confinement factory-raised animals) are being horribly fooled....And if USDA Organic isn't that choice, then what is?

"Research by the University of Washington last year gives more credibility to our nutty purist ideals. Broad-Leaf weed herbicide was applied during reconditioning of a hay pasture. The hay grew over months, and the roots soaked up the herbicide (just like non-organic carrots were found last year to soak up other broad-spectrum herbicides even two years after application). Months of rain and baking sun didn't break the herbicide down... the hay was harvested, sat in a barn, was slowly fed to horses... where the herbicide BIO-ACCUMULATED in their bodies and was then passed in their manure."


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

http://www.vegforlife.org/health_veganic_farming.html

"Although organic farmers avoid pesticides, synthetic fertilizers and genetically modified crops, many still use animal manures and slaughterhouse byproducts like bone, blood and fish meal. Animal agriculture byproducts can be contaminated with toxic chemicals, antibiotics and disease-causing bacteria, spoiling the whole point of organic agriculture. However, a growing trend in organic farming, called &#8220;veganic farming,&#8221; is bringing about some big changes in the way food is grown. Combining organic farming methods with vegan philosophy, veganic farmers are cultivating a better way to grow safe, healthy and animal-friendly food."


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## Nullis (Sep 12, 2010)

You're once again talking about issues that humans brought to the environment in the first place. What if that contaminated hay was fermented and sold at top dollar as "Vegan" fertilizer? 100% PLANT BASED!

I don't know of any OMRI arctic seabird guano (and I actually looked that one up). These seabirds being at higher trophic levels makes them the exception rather than the rule, as far as organics is concerned. Not to mention that the majority of bat/seabird guano in organic fertilizers is from deposits that are at least several hundreds of years old (no POPs), which have decomposed and fossilized. Many are considered to be mined minerals as opposed to animal wastes. Also, these certified guanos are harvested in an ecological and sustainable manner, supporting families and communities where the harvesting takes place.

None of this means that animal by-product derived fertilizers in and of themselves are harmful, it means that farmers everywhere need to get their shit together and watch what they feed their animals and apply to their crops. Just because people have introduced pollutants to the environment it means that any and all animal waste derived fertilizers automatically, irrefutably negative, or even dangerous?
Such things are affecting the environment as a whole, not just animals in it. Just as you said, plants can uptake pollutants also. And you go raving about "bioaccumulation" - a term which I doubt you fully understand - but even so, pollutants may 'bioaccumulate' or 'biomagnify' in organisms (primarily those at the top of the food chain) but we introduced them to the environment in the first place.

If NOP regulations can be assessed and changed to better conform to the definition of organic production and the situation improved, that is wonderful. In other words, if something is broken it should be fixed; but I am not about to go spend ridiculous sums of money on "VEGAN NUTES" because of it.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

Nullis said:


> You're once again talking about issues that humans brought to the environment in the first place...
> 
> ...If NOP regulations can be assessed and changed to better conform to the definition of organic production and the situation improved, that is wonderful. In other words, if something is broken it should be fixed; but I am not about to go spend ridiculous sums of money on "VEGAN NUTES" because of it.


Yes, we did introduce the problem of POPs, agreed. Bio Canna is not made from questionable sources. They have a reputation to uphold and these metals can be tested for. Like all organics, plant sourcing is crucial too. Good point.

From my research the guanos are from fresh sources. The hundred+ year old deposits you speak of have been long depleted, as animal based organics have played a huge role in the growth of humanity over the past thousand years. The seabird guano being collected is from fiercely guarded islands that are turned into guano production facilities. The islands are harvested every few years and all sorts of un-natural retaining walls are built to catch the guano. Also, environmental/human rights records for harvesting guanos are mixed, as with any wild harvested product, as some of my links support.

Agreed, organic animal products are not automatically "bad" or "inferior" to plant based in any way. But many people are using commercial organic products from questionable sources. I would love to see more strict organic certifications. Organic farmers do need to get it together, until then...veganics for me, as expense is not really an issue in a prop215/sb420 world.

And then there are the people who just choose to not use animal products in their lives. Respect for all.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

Nullis said:


> You're once again talking about issues that humans brought to the environment in the first place. What if that contaminated hay was fermented and sold at top dollar as "Vegan" fertilizer? 100% PLANT BASED!


What!? That is far fetched. The plant based nutes I'm talking about are not made from hay, that's CRAZY! Hay is grown very differently than this stuff. My nutes are mostly made from:
A) Kelp and seaweeds (primary as it gets for a food source)
B) Fermented/Extracted Hops (IMO genius, only thing better would be to use hemp...one day. And what makes BioCanna so expensive)
C) Vinasse (inexpensive carb source)
D) other stuff depending on which supplement. but certainly not fermented/extracted animal poop.

A product, like the one you've imagined, wouldn't make it long on the market and I wouldn't use it. Gotta do the research with whatever you use...if you have to buy something.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

Another group for plant based nutrition: http://www.vegansociety.com/lifestyle/home-and-garden/vegan-organic-gardening.aspx

"All life ultimately depends on plants, and the plants do not have to be wastefully passed through an animal in order to work. Those who say that animals are an essential part of agriculture have been conclusively proved wrong by the commercial growers who use animal free techniques and by government sponsored research into the subject. Animal based agriculture is in fact harming the world's environment."


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

There is a bat guano derived product that I've been using, because I am a realist and for now I want to have a stand alone P. Bat guano is filling in the hole in my system, the P. I've been using Nature's nectar N (soy derived), Technaflora soluble seaweed for K, and Nature's nectar P (bat guano derived).

Nature's nectar P is clear and odorless, really very different than a typical poop tea. I only use a little, as needed to supplement my plant based nutrient system. But I wanted to point out that I am not 'poo-pooing' a little poop.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> Here goes a discussion that I had no part in about the smoking quality of some vegan organic flowers. To quote the person who actually tried it and isn't just hating: "...i mean i actually smoked some of the stuff grown with it and its substantially smoother and a cleaner high." BOOM
> 
> Of course there are opinions on both sides, but the guy who actually tried it liked it. I can't make this sh*t up.
> 
> https://tokecity.com/forums/archive/index.php4/t-37978.html





Matt Rize said:


> And another review of some vegan organic herb: "Their herb was hands down the smoothest, best tasting herb I've ever had..."
> 
> http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f6/kyle-kushman-veganic-project-23109/





kingofqueen said:


> Right on ! He does have some great pictures I checked him out and the mission statement there is clear and concise as to explaining what vegan organics actually is . Pretty interesting over all I think . But I also think it,s kinda of an advanced technique . I,m just do " Simple "
> organics I like to call it . Organic based soil with kelp based organic fertilizer . I,m still learning but having some good sucess to this point with my current grow. There are some many how ,why ,this and that diff ways people push trying to grow , so I,m keeping it simple and learing to read my plants . Less is more ! and less varibles to try to control .


Less is more in life. Agreed friend. 
I've been learning to read plants on soil/organics since creation, and it is no longer challenging, mom and grandma brought me up that way. Time to go beyond that. I am a public Cannabis figure who went to an organic farm school to study Cannabis as much as I could. My freedoms here have driven me to return to challenging myself again. Time to work on perfecting something else, you know what I mean? Plus, I need something new to talk about on public/private speaking occasions


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## Nullis (Sep 13, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> Yes, we did introduce the problem of POPs, agreed. Bio Canna is not made from questionable sources. They have a reputation to uphold and these metals can be tested for. Like all organics, plant sourcing is crucial too. Good point.
> 
> From my research the guanos are from fresh sources. The hundred+ year old deposits you speak of have been long depleted, as animal based organics have played a huge role in the growth of humanity over the past thousand years. The seabird guano being collected is from fiercely guarded islands that are turned into guano production facilities. The islands are harvested every few years and all sorts of un-natural retaining walls are built to catch the guano. Also, environmental/human rights records for harvesting guanos are mixed, as with any wild harvested product, as some of my links support.
> 
> ...


Traditional organics is not just 'animal-based', once again, and fossilized guano/seabird deposits (hundreds/thousands of years old) are still plentiful enough- perhaps even largely undiscovered, in caves that have collapsed long ago. Fresher (months old) guano deposits are also harvested ecologically and sustainably in active caves during periods when the bats are not present. It is apparently also rich in bioremediation microbes that stave off fungus and diseases and enhance the decomposition of organic matter. Sunleaves guanos are OMRI, supposedly mined from centuries old deposits in an environmentally friendly manner. Still, bat/seabird guano is a relatively small piece of the puzzle.
http://www.organicguano.com/og_faqs_f.htm
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/bats-archives.html?task=viewArticle&magArticleID=746
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/all-about-bats/111-intro-to-bats/18-benefits-of-bats.html
http://www.archipelagobatguano.com/4.shtml

Expensive nutrients may very well not be a problem for you. It just seems odd for a person seemingly concerned with the sustainability and 'cleanliness' of fertilizer sources, including issues related to how the employees on the ground are treated, that you don't consider how all that extra money you're spending could have went to feed, clothe and educate poor children around the globe.

Metals content of all fertilizers are regulated and tested for. Even so, "Federal, state and industry sponsored risk-based assessments1 have been completed and the results demonstrate that metals in fertilizer generally do not pose harm to human health or the environment." - http://www.aapfco.org/aapfcorules.html

I was always under the impression that a product such as a certified organic bone meal had to come from certified organic cows that ate a certified organic diet; derived from certified organic crops, grown with certified organic fertilizers.

In any case, I feel that it is more respectful to use every part of an animal and not let things go to waste. If nutrients can be recovered from 'wastes' and 'by-products'; returned to the environment and utilized, with minimal negative impact then it is a good thing. Whether it is kitchen waste or animal excrement, it is all part of an organic cycle of life - grow - death -decomposition. Certainly this is better than using synthetic fertilizers, which do absolutely nothing to build or nurture the soil or it's micro-life and further hinder soil fertility in the long run.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 13, 2010)

Nullis said:


> ... Certainly this is better than using synthetic fertilizers, which do absolutely nothing to build or nurture the soil or it's micro-life and further hinder soil fertility in the long run.


Great info Nul, thanks for contributing 

And YES, eff synthetics!


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## Matt Rize (Sep 13, 2010)

I also want to re-iterate my love for traditional organics. Everything I eat is organic, or biodynamic, or uncertified but from friends. I am choosing, for several personal (aka IMHO) reasons, to pursue the idea that vegan organic Cannabis may have benefits over plant/animal based organics. I have posted links to many organizations that feel the same way about food products, but I do not go that far personally. I support my local organic farmers! But in this 215/420 world: we don't sell food as 'medicine', although I'll bet I can find many who believe food can be medicine. But we do sell Cannabis as medicine, so why not pursue the possibility of finding the most pure path? You will never know if that path exists without trying. I've been trying, and IMHO, it is a cleaner smoke.

This whole issue arose for me because of the issues concerning indoor organic gardens that are on heavy feeding situations in containers. Many of my issues are negated by growing outdoors in the ground.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 13, 2010)

http://www.organicguano.com/og_faqs_f.html SELLS GUANO: FAIL

http://www.batcon.org/index.php/medi...gArticleID=746 FURTHER CONVINCED ME THAT ANY HIDDEN LARGE DEPOSITS ARE LONG GONE. THE MAJORITY OF DEPOSITS THAT ARE REMOTELY ACCESSIBLE HAVE BEEN HARVESTED, AND ARE BEING CONTINUALLY HARVESTED AS COST/DEMAND ALLOWS.

http://www.batcon.org/index.php/all-...s-of-bats.html DOESN'T SAY MUCH ABOUT THIS ISSUE

http://www.archipelagobatguano.com/4.shtml ALSO SELLS GUANO: FAIL


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## upthearsenal (Sep 13, 2010)

maybe it's me, but the above links didn't work


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## Matt Rize (Sep 13, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> maybe it's me, but the above links didn't work


Sorry, you have to go to the original posting a few posts back. It did not copy correctly.


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## Nullis (Sep 13, 2010)

Fail because a company that harvests and distributes guano answers questions about where their product comes from and how it is harvested? Archipelago harvests and distributes OMRI-certified _fossilized_ guano, thoroughly describing their harvesting practices and even having the guano analyzed for pathogens as well as nutrient content. You obviously didn't give _any_ of the information there a look, because there is plenty of stuff about the toxicity of other fertilizers for you to take out of context.

Point is that there are conservation-oriented organizations and [much of] the guano industry _supports_ them. If not due to the various good things that bats do for the environment (as outlined in the articles), then for the simple reason that no bats = no guano = no guano to sell.

But again, this is doting on a minor piece of the puzzle here.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 13, 2010)

Sorry for the harshness, I just do not trust the info from people who have something to sell, much like the skeptics that confronted me instantly for sounding too much like an ad.

And, as I posted before, I do use a bat guano derived product for supplementation. The world is not black and white, and we can find links all day to back-up basically anything that we want. I'm not grouping all animal derived organic products together under some "inferior" label, just attempting to share and explore what I've been into lately.

The fact that there are so many vegan organic organizations worldwide is evidence that I am not alone.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 13, 2010)

Nullis said:


> I was always under the impression that a product such as a certified organic bone meal had to come from certified organic cows that ate a certified organic diet; derived from certified organic crops, grown with certified organic fertilizers.


BIG ASSUMPTION>many holes in that system


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## Matt Rize (Sep 13, 2010)

Nullis said:


> Expensive nutrients may very well not be a problem for you. It just seems odd for a person seemingly concerned with the sustainability and 'cleanliness' of fertilizer sources...


The number one goal of this thread is the development of a home-made recipe that rivals what bio canna is doing with the terra plus and the fermented plant extracts.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 13, 2010)

patlpp said:


> When ever someone proclaims him or herself as a "Professor" in these type forums , it means from the School of Hard Knocks, for fucks sake. It's not literal.


I know, filling up my thread with bs. If you looked at my profile, I refer to myself as an instructor. Big bossman calls us professors, but sha! Who cares? That guy wants to play games on my thread like some lonely grower with nothing better to do...?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professor

C: one that teaches or professes special knowledge of an art, sport, or occupation requiring skill

NUFF SAID: back to veganics


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## Matt Rize (Sep 13, 2010)

Okay, here goes some vegan organic Blackberry Kush bubble hash. When you break the chunks up I can only describe it as: soft white/reddish waxy crumbly sticky.
This bubble was not heated or pressed or any of that. Just washed, collected, broke into smaller pieces, slowly dried. That's it folks. It's all about the quality of the trichomes.


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## threefiftyse7en (Sep 14, 2010)

I had the pleasure of smoking some veganic Adonai Kush not too long ago. It was hands down the smoothest and BEST tasting ganja I've ever smoked. I wish I could get my hands on that again.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 14, 2010)

threefiftyse7en said:


> I had the pleasure of smoking some veganic Adonai Kush not too long ago. It was hands down the smoothest and BEST tasting ganja I've ever smoked. I wish I could get my hands on that again.


Yet another testimonial about the qualitative superiority of plant based organics.
The Adonai Kush will soon be widely available soon in seed form, and as flowers in select dispensaries. Big up Shiloh Massive.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 14, 2010)

Feedback on: Pictures of the vegan organic Blackberry Kush, Videos of the 'no cough' that I claim veganics to be responsible for, pictures of my bubble...anyone...feedback?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 14, 2010)

Time to catch up those who have just joined this discussion. This thread is about vegan organics, aka plant based organics, aka veganics.

Veganics is a growing trend in the organic gardening field. Evidence by the many international non-profit organization that I've posted who support vegan organic practices. There is even a "Stockfree Organic" certification in Europe.

Many people feel, for various reasons that have not been quantitatively* proved, that veganics is superior to traditional organics. Traditional organics is both plant and animal based organic products, while veganics is only plant based organic products. Issues with animal organics vary from personal lifestyle choice, to animal rights, to concerns over heavy metal accumulations and other risks associated with poop.

The feedback, qualitative so far (lab results are $120, but I'm scheduled for GC/MS this week!), has been off the charts. I've also posted some unbiased reviews from independent sources.

The system of indoor container growing that I am describing can be done by anyone/anywhere who has access to Canna products. Including those who live in apartments or other concrete jungles. The system I describe is based on Bio Canna products (Terra Plus, Vega, Flores, BioBoost), with supplementation by teas, microbes, molasses, humic/fulvic, seaweed, enzymes, and other some other stuff that includes a little bat guano (because I am not a purist to that degree).

Heavy metal and terpene testing in our flowers is the next step, and the lab is almost ready for public analysis, although I have the feeling price will be an issue because GC/MS ain't cheap. I am not here to prove that my herb has more THC or CBD. I am no longer looking for stronger flowers or higher yields. I am looking for quality based on purity, taste, smoothness, and overall affect. Science can quantify some of that, only the collective community can qualify the rest.


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## upthearsenal (Sep 14, 2010)

okay, so i've been getting everything ready for my end of the year/winter grow. it won't be strictly vegan but it will be a huge step in that direction. 
i have a cousin who lives in cali and recently called him for some grow advice. he said he had never tried anything that was called _vegan_, but he himself grows very "clean organic weed with as little fertilizers and additives as possible". he recommended the bio canna products, and said that the flores and the bioboost were great. over the last few months i've grow a huge dislike to earth juice, i only use their microblast at this point. FF is okay with me but i'm willing to replace it for now.

although i don't have a good grow shop near me, by that i mean i have to drive 500miles to the nearest one. (ridiculous, i know)
so when it comes to soil, driving is cheaper than shipping. 

i recently lost a whole crop to some shitty soil (i still have no idea exactly what it was, improper pH, too hot, who knows) called Vortex by lady bug. if you read what the description is it sounds pretty decent, but it was just a bad experience (source your shit!!).

so, with that in mind i want to stick with OF only because i know it will give me good results. i might try a different soil later, but until then it's going to be fox farm ocean forest.

so this might just be a slight rant, either way i'll be thumbing through the past posts on this thread for any info i missed.


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## blower (Sep 14, 2010)

are you going to grow anything?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 14, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> he recommended the bio canna products, and said that the flores and the bioboost were great.
> 
> so this might just be a slight rant, either way i'll be thumbing through the past posts on this thread for any info i missed.


Rants welcome. 

I mentioned Humboldt Nutrients new mix, which is fecal coliform free. Not sure about how easy that is to find. But the fact they put that on the label is just another indicator of how many people are thinking like we are.

I've always liked the Ocean Forest, and still use it for my non-vegan grows. I am more concerned with the food that we are adding in heavy amounts than the low level of organic precharge in the soil. Most of what is in the mix is used up by the time you are flowering. Vegan organics in fox farm ocean forest!? sounds great.


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## threefiftyse7en (Sep 14, 2010)

Adonai seeds  I CAN'T WAIT!! Words can't explain how seriously smooth, TASTY, and absolutely CHRRRONIC veganically grown nugs are. I've also tried some venganic Grape Ape and Blue Dream that just phukken killer too! 
On my way now to grab some BioTerraPlus Soil and BioVega/Flores and a few other goodies to try out. 
Thanks so much for starting up a thread on veganics. Been around the forum a while now, but nothing has really interested me as much as this subject. Good work bro!
btw... the blackberry nuggets looked pretty damn tasty too! I've a few BBK's going now too. love that strain!


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## Nullis (Sep 14, 2010)

"...with supplementation by teas, microbes, molasses, humic/fulvic, seaweed, enzymes, and other some other stuff that includes a little bat guano (because I am not a purist to that degree)."

And there is nothing new or revolutionary about this. It would be nice if more people grew like this commercially, sure, but the whole notion of 'plant-based' organics seems pretty subjective to me. Whilst going on about the so-called risks associated with some animal by-product derived fertilizers (still largely unsubstantiated), the big picture here has yet to be ascertained. Animal by-products and wastes are an important part of the soil-food web in the natural world, and plenty of waste-derived fertilizers stimulate and feed soil microbes indoors and out. 

Plenty of soil components are not derived from animals _or_ plants; such as greensand, gypsum, rock phosphates, and epsom salts. Some are more indirectly a result of plants/animals from hundreds of years ago, substantially decomposed and fossilized (such as certain guanos). 


Still there is the issue that in nature decomposition itself is either a direct or indirect result of - *animals!* Animals contribute to the decomposition of organic matter in various ways. Some just by helping to break up dead organic (plant/animal) matter to be further decomposed; perhaps by other animals, or passed on to the fungi and prokaryotic organisms that finish the process. 

These animals: the detritivores, are a significant help to the other micro-organisms that contribute to decomposition. The best known example of a detritivore would be worms, such as earthworms. Others include nematodes, springtails, mites, millipedes, centipedes, beetles, slugs and snails. All or some of these critters can be found in your outdoor compost pile; even if you put nothing but plant materials in your compost. All of those animals, and eventually their excrement and carcasses are nurturing the other detrivores and micro-organisms as the cycle continues. Ultimately, the soil food web is just too complex to say that what is in there could be 99% plant based. I would go so far as to say that attempting to force it be that way is bordering on unnatural.


As an aside, are you aware how cows digest their food? They cannot directly break down cellulose in the plants that they eat. Cows are ruminant herbivores, they have a four-chambered stomach and the first stomach is the rumen. Inside the rumen is where the masticated plant material becomes further broken down and exposed to bacteria primarily. It is joined by the reticulum; containing bacteria, fungi, protozoa and other microbes. Collectively referred to as the reticulorumen, inside this organ is where the process of _microbial fermentation_ is carried out resulting in carbohydrates and volatile fatty acids. 

After passing through the omasum, the materials and the microbes flow into the abomasum (true stomach) which is a much more acidic environment than the reticulorumen. Due to the pH change the microbes are killed and themselves digested, providing the cow with the majority of its nutrition. Whatever plant matter residues remain undigested after passing through the intestines are obviously excreted. After that, and possibly mixing with other materials, the aforementioned detritivores go to work and help other organisms continue the cycle; putting the nutrients back into the soil and turning that crap into humus.


But if all plant based components is what you desire, it wouldn't be very difficult to take a gander at one of the various lists of organic materials used for feeding plants. Asses the N-P-K, see what secondary and trace nutrients are present, how available they are and what they do for microbial populations. Put a list together and then decide whether you want to 'spoil' it all by adding worm castings (animal poo), kitchen compost (plethora of miniature animal poos and carcasses) or fossilized guano (mineralized poo).


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## Matt Rize (Sep 14, 2010)

threefiftyse7en said:


> Adonai seeds  I CAN'T WAIT!! Words can't explain how seriously smooth, TASTY, and absolutely CHRRRONIC veganically grown nugs are. I've also tried some venganic Grape Ape and Blue Dream that just phukken killer too!
> On my way now to grab some BioTerraPlus Soil and BioVega/Flores and a few other goodies to try out.
> Thanks so much for starting up a thread on veganics. Been around the forum a while now, but nothing has really interested me as much as this subject. Good work bro!
> btw... the blackberry nuggets looked pretty damn tasty too! I've a few BBK's going now too. love that strain!


YES! Thanks so much. Sometimes the qualitative evidence is ahead of the quantitative. I know of all those batches of veganic goodness of which you speak. The Blue Dream was a first timer's run! AND it took 5th place in this years SF Canna-Cup, lol. Thanks for the BBK big ups. Posts like yours are giving me the confidence to get into the "out-there" theories I have about why the qualities you describe are true for vegan organics.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 14, 2010)

Nullis said:


> "And there is nothing new or revolutionary about this."


Yeah, I know. Thanks. I admittedly pulled 99% out of my butt. And specifically studied this stuff in college, super specifically I studied the defensive toxic secretions of a Diplopoda sp. that lives in the woods on campus. And I've already covered repeatedly that this is not about going 100% vegan organic, but more about leaning hard in that direction. And vegan is merely a matter of perspective, as I covered from the start. And cows? Uhh...what? Who mentioned cows? You use cow dung? 

The independent reviews have all been the same: "best, cleanest, smoothest...ever!"


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## Nullis (Sep 14, 2010)

Well this is Vegan Organics with Professor Matt "Veganics" Rize, isn't it? Just how 'vegan' does my grow have to be in order to qualify?
Can I get away with it being 72% vegan? Perhaps 66% vegan is adequate? The definition of your proposed concept is too blurred to mean anything. 

If it is a mere matter of perception, then why label or sensationalize it as anything else? I would have to think that could tend to turn a lot of people away from your 'message'. If all you were advocating was awareness for and minimization of fertilizer risk/impact and for individuals to be more aware of/closer to the sources of their fertilizer/soil components (organic and otherwise), this thread would certainly have taken an entirely different direction.
So here I am uncertain as ever exactly what the heck you're talking about.

As for the independent "cleanest, smoooothest ever!" reviews: 
I have this theory: considering that plant-based fertilizers would tend to be less potent than those derived from animal excreta, maybe the real problem is that people just like to over-feed for as long as they possibly can, thus their plants do not sufficiently exhaust nutrients prior to the harvest. Being less potent, one can feed copiously as usual but impact on flavor is lessened.


Cow would be an example of a ruminant herbivore; others include deer, llamas, goats, sheep, camels. Again missing the much bigger picture here, but I don't care if you ever get it. I only hope I have existed to contribute something of a saner more pragmatic nature for anyone else reading.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 14, 2010)

Nullis said:


> Well this is Vegan Organics with Professor Matt "Veganics" Rize, isn't it? Just how 'vegan' does my grow have to be in order to qualify?
> Can I get away with it being 72% vegan? Perhaps 66% vegan is adequate? The definition of your proposed concept is too blurred to mean anything.
> 
> As for the independent "cleanest, smoooothest ever!" reviews:
> I have this theory: considering that plant-based fertilizers would tend to be less potent than those derived from animal excreta, maybe the real problem is that people just like to over-feed for as long as they possibly can, thus their plants do not sufficiently exhaust nutrients prior to the harvest. Being less potent, one can feed copiously as usual but impact on flavor is lessened.


Purity should be thought of as levels, shades of grey my friend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_certification

"In the US, federal organic legislation defines three levels of organics. Products made entirely with certified organic ingredients and methods can be labeled "100% organic". Products with at least 95% organic ingredients can use the word "organic". Both of these categories may also display the USDA organic seal. A third category, containing a minimum of 70% organic ingredients, can be labeled "made with organic ingredients". In addition, products may also display the logo of the certification body that approved them. Products made with less than 70% organic ingredients can not advertise this information to consumers and can only mention this fact in the product's ingredient statement. Similar percentages and labels apply in the EU.

And I totally agree with you about overfeeding with animal based organics, resulting in an under flush. Plus I see an issue with residues from animal products, that doesn't exist in plant organics.

If you want a number from me I'll pull 95% out of my butt because of how statistics views that number.


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## threefiftyse7en (Sep 14, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> YES! Thanks so much. Sometimes the qualitative evidence is ahead of the quantitative. I know of all those batches of veganic goodness of which you speak. The Blue Dream was a first timer's run! AND it took 5th place in this years SF Canna-Cup, lol. Thanks for the BBK big ups. Posts like yours are giving me the confidence to get into the "out-there" theories I have about why the qualities you describe are true for vegan organics.


No problem bro. Thanks again for putting this out there. regardless of what any of the skeptics or haters say, you are clearly doing something right man. keep that shit up. 

hey by chance do ya know where I could score those beans when they are released? Peace in Medicine maybe?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 14, 2010)

threefiftyse7en said:


> No problem bro. Thanks again for putting this out there. regardless of what any of the skeptics or haters say, you are clearly doing something right man. keep that shit up.
> 
> hey by chance do ya know where I could score those beans when they are released? Peace in Medicine maybe?


I will let you know as soon as possible. My guess is either peace, harborside, or buds n roses. But I really have no idea.


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## threefiftyse7en (Sep 14, 2010)

sweet! I'll be anxiously waiting for that release. now - time for some bong hits of some NONveganic blue dream  haha

Take care man


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## Matt Rize (Sep 14, 2010)

For 357:

I was asked for tips with using the Bio Canna line: terra plus, vega/flores, bioboost.

Specific tips for Bio Canna products include:
-Make sure to feed from the get go with the terra plus, it has almost zero charge.
-Some add perlite for extra air/drainage. But I choose not to. I'm testing CocoNot instead. Terra plus straight out the bag has worked well.
-Have extra supplements around, something with extra N, and something with extra P/K. Nature's nectars make a vegan N, a quality organic P, and technaflora soluble seaweed has lots of K.
-No mid-cycle flushing with veganics. And don't start flushing until 10-7 days before the end. Nothing to flush.
-Bio Canna products work best with a thriving microbial community (like all organics). Microbe teas, soluble microbes, anything that will constantly inoculate can only help. Bountea, HN soluble microbes, Mayan microzyme, humic/fulvic, lots of molasses, multiple enzyme products too. No need to pH, or ppm. Just do all the proper things to your water: triple carbon filter, let it bubble, and correct temp.
-Feed by the directions. If there is a range start on the low end and plan on going to full strength plus 25%. And then, if you run CO2 or lots of light or are just good, plan on supplementing with the other stuff during the heaviest feeding parts of the life cycle (full-veg and mid-flower).
-No worries other than underfeeding really, and it's totally safe. I've drank my full formula (minus enzymes and microbes).
-Top feed, for sure. So thick. And shake the bottles often and hard, check for sludge because you will be missing out.
-Flush your feeding line/res, after every feed. This stuff is like half digested food, it goes bad quickly when mixed with the whole formula.
-Check each pot individually when you water. A proper wet/dry cycle is CRUCIAL (again, this is mostly simple organics)


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## upthearsenal (Sep 14, 2010)

eh, the nit picking... 
i don't know, nullis, what you're really trying to prove, or rather, contribute. but anyone who reads this and has the slightest interest of what matt is on about, would appreciate this thread.

for me, the term veganism is too extreme, in any scenario really, maybe achievable in diet, perhaps...PERHAPS, but not in lifestyle. 

either way, why would you have to sacrifice purity for potency, whether you supplement the plant with animal based fertilizers, or plant based fertilizers what does it matter? you give the plant what it wants/needs! 

and okay, maybe you're right about everything you said about ABF and how that is nature's way, but since when has indoor growing been nature's way?


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## odbsmydog (Sep 14, 2010)

pura vida by technofloura is an excellent product! all vegan and organic. works sooo good! I had a bunch I got for free when I worked at the hydro shop. used it on my indoor and outdoor last year! loved it. especially good for indoor cause it isnt stinky at all.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 14, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> i don't know, nullis, what you're really trying to prove, or rather, contribute. but anyone who reads this and has the slightest interest of what matt is on about, would appreciate this thread...
> and okay, maybe you're right about everything you said about ABF and how that is nature's way, but since when has indoor growing been nature's way?


UptheA with the mature post again. Thanks. The un-natural indoor environment is exactly what pushed this idea forward. These indoor heavy feeding scenarios are when problems, like poop-residue building up in the media, arise.


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## threefiftyse7en (Sep 14, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> For 357:
> 
> I was asked for tips with using the Bio Canna line: terra plus, vega/flores, bioboost.
> 
> ...


wow! you're the man brother!! Thank you much for the tips.


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## threefiftyse7en (Sep 14, 2010)

hey just out curiosity have you grown with or tried and nugs grown with the subcool super soil mix and if so how did it compare?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 14, 2010)

threefiftyse7en said:


> hey just out curiosity have you grown with or tried and nugs grown with the subcool super soil mix and if so how did it compare?


No, I just joined this forum a week ago. I've read the formula, great mix.

Of note: I try all sorts of different genetics, all organic, grown by many different quality growers. I get the inside tip from dispensaries on what to try. Some of the organics I try are way more potent, but not as clear, more harsh, and the after affects are way different.


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## threefiftyse7en (Sep 14, 2010)

gotcha... I will definitely agree with ya there my friend.


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## Nullis (Sep 14, 2010)

But poop residues do not simply "build up" in soils (what are you crapaphobic?); they are continually processed and decomposed by detritivores and microbes. These organisms themselves leave behind excreta, then they die and/or are consumed and excreted; that excreta and those carcasses go back up for more decomposition... by future generations of detritivores and microbes... which excrete, and/or are consumed and excreted... to feed more detritivores and microbes... which excrete, and/or are consumed and excreted... feeding the detritivores and microbes again... more excreta and miniature animal carcasses... more detritivores and microbes... excreta, carcasses, excreta... detritivores, microbes... carcasses, excreta... microbes... see where this is going? Well it doesn't stop; it happens forever. 

Indoors or outdoors: if your soil is alive as it should be then this is exactly what is happening within it. In fact, I would say that the only poop there that has the potential to build up would be that of... detritivores and microbes! And that is going to happen whether you supply 'plant-based' nutrients or not.
Besides the great, bright artificial sun that I have hanging in my little artificial sky; I would say that mimicking the natural environment is exactly what I am trying to accomplish. Even that artificial sun is there to replicate what the real sun does.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 14, 2010)

> wow! you're the man brother!! Thank you much for the tips.


your welcome. also, forgot to say that a little plant based organic surfactant (saponins and yucca extract usually) will help.

let the haters hate. no one can stand in my limelight, while hiding in the shadows 

1600+ views in a week is that good?


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## threefiftyse7en (Sep 15, 2010)

so something along the lines of Roots Trinity would be cool as the surfactant? Or am I mixed up?

Also, what's your take on foliar feeding with the boost? if you do choose to foliar would you say it has an adverse effect on the taste?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 15, 2010)

threefiftyse7en said:


> so something along the lines of Roots Trinity would be cool as the surfactant? Or am I mixed up?
> 
> Also, what's your take on foliar feeding with the boost? if you do choose to foliar would you say it has an adverse effect on the taste?


I'm pretty sure Trinity is a rhizosphere catalyst. Common surfactants include: organic coco wet, organic wet betty from AN, even dr. bronners baby soap.

I'm big on foliar feeding the bioboost. I'm big on foliar feeding in general with veganics. No, I have not found any residual taste from the bioboost. I always alternate between a good foliar soak and plain water. Also, I'm not really feeding NPK via foliar unless I have to. I like to foliar with the bioboost, a little fulvic, microbes, and a little organic surfactant.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 16, 2010)

My local grow store is still without the bio terra plus. Has anyone seen it here in the US?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 17, 2010)

There is a rumor going around that BioCanna products are being pulled in the US. I had to make a couple phone calls, but have found this out:

The BioCanna nutes are not going anywhere, YES! But the Bio Terra Plus is not likely to return to the US.

The Bio terra plus has an ingredient that is technically classified as "biological" and the US doesn't accept that. The reality comes down to Canna not needing money. They would rather keep their current mix "as-is" than change it to be acceptable for the US market regulations. It must be nice leading the canna-world, and not needing american money to push profits up.

The guy at the store said Roots Organics soil is the closest, but I've used it and the two simply do not compare. Plus, the reviews of RO soil are mixed at best.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 18, 2010)

Well, next round has begun. I'm doing the Blackberry Kush again. These babies are the real deal, autoflowering like they should. Already resinous, even though they are just babies. And I have one blue cheese going that I need a home for.

The media this round is something new for me. I've had to come up with something because the Bio Terra Plus is not coming back and all I can do for now is try to recreate it.

My mix is 95% natural, and 99% vegan nutrition. I used: CocoNot, Sunshine #4, Bio Terra Plus, and Just Right Xtra. The Just Right is something new made with GH products. The overall mix is a combination of bark, coco, peat, and a little bit of perlite. The non-vegan ingredient is a bone product in the Xtra.

Pictures to follow. 

Big up the ganja geeks! Great week of shooting film up in Kushland.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 18, 2010)

Here is an interesting perspective on the history of the Blackberry Kush

"Master breeder, Nebu derivative from NorCal bagseeds but still unknown genetics tho I told my friends that if you crossed flo with a pre-98 bubba you would get this. Oregon purple thai in it imho. Frosty and staunch with deep flavors. A fine example of the Blackberry phonotype. Earthy undertones with a dark berry burst highlight this magnificent strain that is at times rather crappy at many coops. Hard to grow and somewhat unstable Im told. But if you cant find dakind then youre in biznatch. Very effective pain relief as well as some euphoria that creeps into "stoned" bakeyness aswell. A sweet change of pace curveball to mix up that og routine many of us socallers fall into. but what an og hole to fall for. gem found at hr."

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cannababble/3199237649/

OR this guy: 

"What are the genetics behind bbk? I have heard its just a straight up Blackbbery x OG but I have also heard Blackberry x Bubba x White Rhino and Blackberry x White Rhino x OG so I just wanted to know what the official genetics are."

http://forum.grasscity.com/indoor-growing/529260-blackberry-kush.html

OR maybe this guy is right:

"Lineage: Afghani Mother x DJ Shorts Blue Berry
Pheno type: Chronic
Family: 80% Indica 20% Sativa"

http://www.strainreviews.net/indica-strains/blackberry-kush-strain-review-dangreen/


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## trogdor408 (Sep 19, 2010)

Ive just started researching about veganics since hearing Kyle Kushman talk about. I am very interested in trying it out. It totally makes sense. Ive been looking up the different nutes that i have found kyle to use and i am gonna be doing some testing of some recipes. Can you talk more on what you use? Also i really want to attent the seminar at oaksterdam with Kyle but ive never attended any class there. Can i still sign up for that seminar without going to any other class there? Thanks and i support what you are talking about. Let haters be haters.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks for the support. You should contact OU about Kyle's class. I'm teaching Outdoor at the basic seminar coming up here at the North Bay campus, open to all, even the haters.

More on what I use...

Media: 
We used to rely on the amazing properties of Bio Terra Plus, but that is gone and we need to keep going. Kushman is using HN's new potting mix. It is certified fecal coliform free (aka poop), but is 30% perlite and I won't use it. I'm in a mix that I described a page back. It consists of coco, bark, and peat with less than 5% of perlite. This is essentially a soil-less mix, made from: CocoNot, Sunshine #4, Bio Terra Plus, and Just Right Xtra. The Xtra adds some "soil", earthworm castings (which I choose to count as vegan), DE, microbes, and a little animal organics.

The overall plant based organic nutrient system that I am using is unique to me. The media is unique in addition to the total nutrients used. We all grow our own ways...that is the natural path. My media is over 95% natural and my food is 99% vegan organic.

This way of growing is new school; soil-less vegan organic (plant based organic) indoor container gardens in high yield situations. This is entirely different than old school organics, which is based on soil, slow release poops/meals, and microbes. We are using soil-less media, instantly available plant extracts, and microbes (notice the reliance on microbes like all organics).

By not having a bunch of slow release food mixed in we are able to do a true end-flush. In traditional organics (slow release food) you cannot do a complete flush. By adding water at the end, in a traditional organic flush, you are adding more food. The food is part of the soil and doesn't disappear by magic at 6 weeks. My dissatisfaction with slow release organic flushing has naturally led me to use more soluble organic foods, in a more soil-less media. Which leads straight into vegan organic soil-less gardening.

What I mean by a true flush will become apparent as soon as you smoke your first breath of veganics. The independent reviews all agree. Unlike traditional organics, which benefits from extra flushing, 7 to 10 days of flushing is all that veganic plants can handle, and all that is necessary. In veganics, the first flush brings immediate chlorosis, following the path of nature and revealing secondary pigmentation. Two weeks of flushing is too much for soil-less vegan organic gardens. Now that I am used to veganics, traditional organics looks, tastes, and feels less pure.

Next up: FOOD


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## odbsmydog (Sep 20, 2010)

sounds fun


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## Matt Rize (Sep 21, 2010)

I want to take an interlude and say I completely respect old school organics. 

I live in a concrete jungle, I grow indoors for medicine not money. After many years I've learned that indoor traditional organics can be improved upon, if your main priority is quality (not ease, cheapness, or anything else). In traditional organics extra flushing (three weeks plus) can usually improve flavor and smoke quality, but you end up shorting yourself in yield. In indoor vegan organic gardening you get to feed almost to the end, making sure the buds get to develop fully, without compromise in taste and smoke quality.

The quality of flower and hash smoke is the true test in my world, and science is slowly beginning to get there. For now, the independent qualitative reviews will have to suffice. 

If I had the space I would grow in the ground, in this amazing California climate, with vegan meals AND soluble food. But for now...
Next up: more on VEGAN ORGANIC NUTRITION


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## Matt Rize (Sep 22, 2010)

Another guess at Blackberry's Kush's lineage:

Blackberry Kush (Indica) (New!)
Genetics: Black Domina x Rasberry Cough
Taste/Smell: Strong fuel flavor with a hint of berry aftertaste.
Medicinal Value: Great for relaxing, this strain is smooth and will leave you with couch lock!
Grade: A+
Pictures: Coming Soon!

http://www.weedtracker.com/forums/2235-2273-cannabis-clubs-collectives-and-dispensaries/2282-california-ca/23-sacramento/2235-1-solution-1s/228662-menu-5-15-10-our.html


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## Matt Rize (Sep 24, 2010)

Soil pH is a measure of soil acidity or soil alkalinity. In our world pH measures hydronium ions (H3O+) in solution. Solution = the soil or soil-less mixes that are used for organics, water and media. Each nutrient has it's own range of acceptable pH for uptake, but fine tuning pH can lead to larger yields and more efficient uptake.

"The pH scale is logarithmic and as a result, each whole pH value below 7 is ten times more acidic than the next higher value. For example, pH 4 is ten times more acidic than pH 5 and 100 times (10 times 10) more acidic than pH 6. The same holds true for pH values above 7, each of which is ten times more alkaline (another way to say basic) than the next lower whole value. For example, pH 10 is ten times more alkaline than pH 9 and 100 times (10 times 10) more alkaline than pH 8." http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/184ph.html

This means that the difference between 6.2 and 6.8 is in reality a big difference.

Standard old school organics is very different than what I am talking about here. Old school organics don't feed like we do, and their media is soil instead of peat/coco/bark based. What I am talking about is a combination of hydro techniques (soil-less media and soluble foods) WITH organic practices and products, to make the purest tasting/smoking ganja possible. I can grow all natural vegan organic, AND I can do a super flush to remove as much chlorophyll as possible pre-harvest. No poop, no leftover food from slow releases, no residue from chem.

With soil and the ground, pH is not a big factor, as long as you are organic. When you start to do soil-less organics pH has a huge role, not as big as chem, but still very important for health and vigor. (maddy-that was for you, open your eyes to the other world of organics. we both have the right to exist.)

Each soil-less media has specific pH values and buffering capacities. Peat is famously acidic, but many products come pre-balanced. Lime can also be added for cheap. This is why the Bio Terra Plus was so great, perfect pH all the way through. Just Right Xtra is actually balanced to 7.4, but the bag says 7.01. 

Organic nutrients and supplements all affect pH differently. Hygrozyme for example is super low pH. I've found that the higher quality products, like Bio Canna, are perfect pH if you mix according to the label.

6.4 pH every time I mix my Bio Canna nutes, my supplements sometimes drop that down to 5.8, but my water comes out of the tap around 8.0 so a little extra acid helps. With vegan organics pH matters, but not like chem.


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## Jack*Herrer420 (Sep 24, 2010)

Cool thread, but if wanting to grow organically, why go out and purchase name brand ferts? I give my plants everything they need with meals, rock phosphates, kelps, ewc, molasses. There is no need to pay big money on the super ultra mega bottled organic fert. Just my opinion.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 24, 2010)

Jack*Herrer420 said:


> Cool thread, but if wanting to grow organically, why go out and purchase name brand ferts? I give my plants everything they need with meals, rock phosphates, kelps, ewc, molasses. There is no need to pay big money on the super ultra mega bottled organic fert. Just my opinion.


No argument about not paying big money to give them everything they need. But I am making the cleanest medicine possible (more than just giving them what they need). Even traditional soluble organics is cheaper than vegan organics. I used to grow with meals, rock, kelp, molasses ect. but tried this Bio Canna based vegan organic system and the smoke quality is obviously better. 

The soil-less nature of my media gives me a real flush cycle, where I can pull out most of the chlorophyll pre-harvest, can't do that with too many meals or other slow release in the mix. But the soil-less nature of my mix also means I have to feed constantly. Following this path, I worked through every organic soil-less combo and Bio Canna is just a whole other world from most of the nutes out there. The fermented plant extracts they make are simply something I can't make at home, especially where I live. So I buy them, sb 420 allows me to recover those costs so it all works out financially and my smoke is better. Win-Win. And the vegetarian/vegan patients appreciate vegan organics to the highest level.

I can't smoke chem anymore, and organics (indoors) usually tastes underflushed. It is all about the outdoor organics and indoor veganics. BOOM!


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## Matt Rize (Sep 25, 2010)

This is the vegan organics network's standards for veganics. BOOM!
http://www.veganorganic.net/images/standards_jan2007.pdf

"5. Supplementary nutrients 

5.1 Permitted soluble fertilisers and alginates for supplementary purposes only 
(a) Supplementary tonics created on the holding e.g. Comfrey tonics, nettle tonics and 
herb tonics e.g. camomile and tansy 
(b) Compost teas created on the holding 
(c) Dried seaweed meal 
(d) Liquid seaweed and other commercially available foliar feeds suitable for organic 
systems that are free from animal inputs 
(e) Commercially available compound fertilisers and liquid feeds suitable for organic 
systems that are free from animal inputs 

5.2 Permitted fertilisers for supplementary purposes only 
(a) Phosphate sources (Cadmium content less than or equal to 90mg/kg of P205); 
 Natural rock phosphate (e.g. Tunisian rock phosphate); 
 Calcined aluminium phosphate rock (e.g. Redzlaag) where soil pH > 7.5. 
(b) Potassium (potash) sources: 
 Wood-ash (from wood not chemically treated after felling) from the registered 
holding 
(c) Calcium-magnesium sources: 
 Dolomitic limestone 
 Gypsum - calcium sulphate 
 Ground chalk & limestone 
 Epsom salts (for acute magnesium deficiency) 
 Magnesium rock (including Kierite) 
(d) Clays (e.g. perlite and vermiculite). 

5.3 Mineral must only be used in cases of acute shortage because the products are 
quarried from non-renewable resources and are transported over long distances. 

5.4 Restricted fertilisers 
(a) Sulphate of potash - only where exchangeable K levels are below index 2 (100mg/litre) 
and clay content is less than 20%, following soil analysis 
(b) Sulphur 
(c) Calcium chloride - for bitter pit in apples 
(d) Industrial lime from sugar production 
(e) Natural rock potash - providing it has a relatively low immediate solubility in water and 
low chlorine content 
(f) Trace elements 
 Stone meal (ground basalt) 
 Boron, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, cobalt, selenium, zinc. 

5.5 Prohibited fertilisers 
(a) Any animal by-product of livestock or fish origin 
(b) All synthetic fertilisers including: nitrochalk, Chilliean nitrate, urea, muriate of potash, 
potassium chloride, superphosphates, kanite and fibrophos 
(c) Slaked lime, quicklime 
(d) Lithothamnium coralloides and phymatolithon calcareum forms of calcified seaweed"


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## Matt Rize (Sep 25, 2010)

"...the primary source of nutrients on many organic farms in the country comes from manure from confined animal operations, or what he calls &#8220;factory farms.&#8221; 

&#8220;You think you are getting these clean happy vegetables, but more often than not they&#8217;re grown in waste from factory farms,&#8221; he said. &#8220;The animals &#8230; were fed non-organic feed laced with hormones and antibiotics. Those products bio-accumulate in the animals and it&#8217;s present in their waste as well.&#8221;

http://fooddemocracy.wordpress.com/2008/07/13/salt-of-the-earth-don-bustos-ron-khosla-farm-stock-free-vegan-organic-or-veganic/


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## Matt Rize (Sep 25, 2010)

"There&#8217;s nothing new about embracing biodiversity and using decomposing plant matter to grow plants. It&#8217;s the very basis of natural growth. The best example is the forest, whose fertility comes from the accumulation of plants on the surface, without anyone working the soil and without artificial additions of animal manure.

Early farmers acknowledged this. There was a time when nearly all farming was done without animal manure or animal derivatives. As Ron Khosla points out, &#8220;the Romans and the Chinese used &#8216;green manures.'"...

http://www.friendsofanimals.org/actionline/fall-2004/veganics.html


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## Dr. O (Sep 25, 2010)

interesting thread
i have been looking into fermented plant juices,so i will contribute something to this thread
http://nfe.localgarden.us/index.php?title=Fermented_Plant_Juices


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## Dr. O (Sep 25, 2010)

do u think fermented plant extract will work in rockwool or hydroton?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 25, 2010)

Dr. O said:


> do u think fermented plant extract will work in rockwool or hydroton?


Doubt it, sorry. Organics is based on rhizosphere health and microbial communities. I'm not convinced that organics can be done in a pure hydro media. The Bio Canna nutes that I'm using are for top feeding/drain to waste only. I could see a Bio Canna drain to waste hydro set up getting super expensive and hard to maintain. This stuff is too thick/sticky for drip, and has to be fed as soon as it is mixed.


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## Jack*Herrer420 (Sep 25, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> No argument about not paying big money to give them everything they need. But I am making the cleanest medicine possible (more than just giving them what they need). Even traditional soluble organics is cheaper than vegan organics. I used to grow with meals, rock, kelp, molasses ect. but tried this Bio Canna based vegan organic system and the smoke quality is obviously better.
> 
> The soil-less nature of my media gives me a real flush cycle, where I can pull out most of the chlorophyll pre-harvest, can't do that with too many meals or other slow release in the mix. But the soil-less nature of my mix also means I have to feed constantly. Following this path, I worked through every organic soil-less combo and Bio Canna is just a whole other world from most of the nutes out there. The fermented plant extracts they make are simply something I can't make at home, especially where I live. So I buy them, sb 420 allows me to recover those costs so it all works out financially and my smoke is better. Win-Win. And the vegetarian/vegan patients appreciate vegan organics to the highest level.
> 
> I can't smoke chem anymore, and organics (indoors) usually tastes underflushed. It is all about the outdoor organics and indoor veganics. BOOM!


Alright, sounds good. Like I've heard you say, there's as many methods of organic growing as there are organic growers. Nothing wrong with doing things your own way. Glad your having such good results. Keep it organic brother.


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## Grower Z (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Matt,

I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but wanted to point something out.

Bio Terra Plus is not a Vegan product.

http://bio.canna-uk.com/bio/products_btp_1.php

_Bio Terra Plus has been pre-fertilized with certified, organic ingredients such as bone meal, bat guano..._


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## Matt Rize (Sep 25, 2010)

Grower Z said:


> Hi Matt,
> 
> I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but wanted to point something out.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I know. Thanks. I am not 100% vegan by any means, but I do lean heavily in that direction. My soil-less mix I am using now (because Bio Terra Plus is gone here) is mostly vegan, but still not completely because I mixed in some Just Right Xtra. I go over specifics throughout the thread, sorry for all the BS posts that made this so long, but I had to defend myself from the close minded old schoolers and haters.

For the Bio Terra Plus, the amount of animal organics used is tiny, and accounts for less than 1% of the nutrition your plants will receive. It is still the best organic & 100% natural soil-less media (without perlite!). Wish I had some Bio Terra Plus in my life.


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## plaguedog (Sep 26, 2010)

Well at least the Canna lines are registered in Oregon, that's a start. All the other bottled organic "vegan" products have been pulled from the shelf as they are mislabeled or unregistered.


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## plaguedog (Sep 26, 2010)

LOL at this thread......

Some good info, and some real bad.

Using guanos doesn't make your pot harsh or taste like shit...what a farce.


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## Grower Z (Sep 26, 2010)

plaguedog said:


> Well at least the Canna lines are registered in Oregon, that's a start. All the other bottled organic "vegan" products have been pulled from the shelf as they are mislabeled or unregistered.


General Organics included?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 26, 2010)

plaguedog said:


> LOL at this thread......
> 
> Some good info, and some real bad.
> 
> Using guanos doesn't make your pot harsh or taste like shit...what a farce.


Hey, If you read carefully it is not the guano itself that I am against. It is the over application of animal poops for making medicine. Check out the independent reviews of Vegan Organics, they all say the same thing: smoothest, cleanest smoke ever. I can't make that non-sh*t up. (non-sh*t because no poop!)

I never claimed that you can taste the poop literally, that would be silly, like saying I can taste the hops in my herb. The point is that plant based organics has less residue than poops, coming from less complex sources (plants not poops). So when I flush, I get a really good flush. I can pull out the chlorophyll preharvest, which leads to a smoother smoke.

The fact that my plant based food needs to be fed instantly when mixed with water shows how simple and available the nutes are. My plant food comes mostly digested already, broken down plants, like a compost tea of sorts. Very different than a poop/water combo.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 26, 2010)

Grower Z said:


> General Organics included?


No, I think GO is okay in OR. They are a nor cal company and would surely want some of that Oregon money. Most of my buddies are running GO, good results, but not like the Bio Canna. And we need to consider the ingredients when using terms like vegan organic. I prefer PLANT BASED ORGANIC because it is a more accurate description of what I am promoting. Rock and chem are technically vegan, it is the fermented plant extracts that make Bio Canna nutes stand out from the crowd.


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## GayRioThug (Sep 26, 2010)

Gotta catch up on the thread. I'm not a fan of bottled organic nutes, but interested in results from all methods of growing. Wishing you the best and hope to see some dank!


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## Matt Rize (Sep 26, 2010)

GayRioThug said:


> Gotta catch up on the thread. I'm not a fan of bottled organic nutes, but interested in results from all methods of growing. Wishing you the best and hope to see some dank!


Thanks, ignore the haters and the retaliation, there are some good posts by myself and the community, not everything is bottled for everyone


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## GayRioThug (Sep 26, 2010)

Looking real good dude. Give me a day or so to catch up, I'm sure I'll have some questions. Peace.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 26, 2010)

kingofqueen said:


> Right on ! He does have some great pictures I checked him out and the mission statement there is clear and concise as to explaining what vegan organics actually is . Pretty interesting over all I think . But I also think it,s kinda of an advanced technique . I,m just do " Simple "
> organics I like to call it . Organic based soil with kelp based organic fertilizer . I,m still learning but having some good sucess to this point with my current grow. There are some many how ,why ,this and that diff ways people push trying to grow , so I,m keeping it simple and learing to read my plants . Less is more ! and less varibles to try to control .


Or you can check out kushmanveganics.com, he has some hi-def images and video going on. Similar system, but a few big differences.


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## moash (Sep 27, 2010)

well it seems the other thread got closed,
so i will ask a question here if u dont mind...
how do u thin out ur hash?do u do it while its still wet?
i also like the idea of the "fruit roll up" storage


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## Matt Rize (Sep 27, 2010)

moash said:


> well it seems the other thread got closed,
> so i will ask a question here if u dont mind...
> how do u thin out ur hash?do u do it while its still wet?
> i also like the idea of the "fruit roll up" storage


YES, sorry about the other thread closing, we had some good stuff going on there, but some stoners are really sensitive. I heard marijuana can cause delayed emotional maturity...lol...

There are two ways I do the fruit roll up thing. Preferably, I lay it out thin like that when it is wet. If I want to make a fruit roll up after the fact I will have to use a rolling pin and a little heat. More to follow on fruit roll up hash, if it I won't get locked for talking about hash in the organic forum...


Let's move the hash techniques to my new school thread, and keep this one about PLANT BASED NUTRITION.
https://www.rollitup.org/organics/370730-new-school-organics-professor-matt.html

ps. hey moash, i truly appreciate how we can argue one day and share techniques the next. You continually show what it means to "be the bigger man", and IMO you should be one of the mods. Peas.


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## karri0n (Sep 27, 2010)

EDIT: OK I read more of this thread and now see you are talking about indoor growing. I agree with you in that I don't think it's really possible to truly grow organically indoors, and I appreciate what you are doing here. However, It still sounds like you're on This Bio Canna company's payroll. Also it looks like this thread doesn't have much to do with that other one, so my comments on energy work and plants don't really fit here. I guess I'll retract this whole post, but I'll leave the original text up for any that want to read it. I said it and it was wrong but I'll stand by it because I don't believe in just covering up my mistakes.



I didn't read this whole thread, but to be honest it sounds like you are pushing a particular line of nutrients... Commercially produced using electricity, placed into plastic bottles, shipped using fossil fuels... This is not vegan. I can get on board with the no animal products thing, but the very most important thing you could be doing rather than pouring something out of a bottle is producing your own living compost or vermicompost. You will not get better results out of anything. All of the organic nutrients that you can buy are simply quick and dirty ways to get something resembling what a good, healthy compost pile will produce.

I'm sorry, but I'm not trying to flame or troll.

On another note, I did see the other thread that listed a whole bunch of different "new school organics" things, and saw that you had things such as talking to the plants, music, crystals, etc. I'm personally trained in energy work for healing and therapy on human and animal systems, and, while I couldnt' give you scientific results, I will say my plants have definitely responded very well when I do energy work on them. I have not, however, tried anything along the lines of cleansing and charging a giant hunk of quartz crystal and putting it next to them, but that would be an interesting experiment and I thank you for the idea.


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## plaguedog (Sep 27, 2010)

Actually you are wrong. The whole GO line was pulled. Mislabeling the product..... They have the magical "vegan" word on them too......

This doesn't mean these product will not work, it just means they aren't telling you what is actually in the product. I'm sure people have had good results, I tried some samples and didn't see any problems. Just trying to give people a heads up.

Organics and bottles....meh.......No thanks.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 27, 2010)

plaguedog said:


> Actually you are wrong. The whole GO line was pulled. Mislabeling the product..... They have the magical "vegan" word on them too......
> 
> This doesn't mean these product will not work, it just means they aren't telling you what is actually in the product. I'm sure people have had good results, I tried some samples and didn't see any problems. Just trying to give people a heads up.
> 
> Organics and bottles....meh.......No thanks.


Thanks for the correct p-dog. GO needs to get on top of that, sha! And I totally hear what you mean about bottled organics.


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## plaguedog (Sep 27, 2010)

Yeah some of them are just unregistered is all. I am sure they are working on it. Here is the link:

http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/PEST/stopsales.shtml


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## Matt Rize (Sep 27, 2010)

plaguedog said:


> Yeah some of them are just unregistered is all. I am sure they are working on it. Here is the link:
> 
> http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/PEST/stopsales.shtml


Thanks, seen this link on a few threads here. At least Bio Canna isn't on the list, not that this list is the end all/be all in ferts. In fact, nothing I've been promoting on here is on that list. (AND IM NOT PAID BY ANY OF THESE COMPANIES, maybe I should be  )

So...why are so many companies not registered in Oregon?


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## plaguedog (Sep 27, 2010)

Because the standard in Oregon is about the highest you can get in growing. Look at all the AN rip off products........


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## Matt Rize (Sep 27, 2010)

plaguedog said:


> Because the standard in Oregon is about the highest you can get in growing. Look at all the AN rip off products........


I despise AN, for their unannounced formula changes (bud candy sucks now) and their demeaning images. Promote positive canna-culture. Go Oregon.


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## karri0n (Sep 27, 2010)

What is AN? what do you mean by demeaning images?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 27, 2010)

karri0n said:


> What is AN? what do you mean by demeaning images?


AN stands for Advanced Nutrients, sorry thread slang. Demeaning images...google wet betty. It was okay until one of the students totally called me out for having a bottle of it on display. If the adult women students have a problem with it, then it is gone. Raspect


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## karri0n (Sep 27, 2010)

Oh jeece... that aint that bad.

Also I like how it says "Plant Penetrator" right underneath her


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## Matt Rize (Sep 27, 2010)

karri0n said:


> Oh jeece... that aint that bad.
> 
> Also I like how it says "Plant Penetrator" right underneath her


I kinda thought it was funny, but the older women were not down. I like Humboldt Nutes images better, but image is just extra cost.


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## upthearsenal (Sep 27, 2010)

will i kill off beneficial bacteria if i use a bit of H2O2 in my waterings?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 27, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> will i kill off beneficial bacteria if i use a bit of H2O2 in my waterings?


Gosh, that is a great question. I wish I had some facts to back up a reply. H2O2 is deadly to micro-organisms, as a general rule. "A bit" is where I can't say for sure, it's not like you are flushing your hydro with straight H2O2 or any of that. I stopped using it when I started using all of the soluble microbes. But, when I clone I like to soak my cuts in a water/peroxide mix (old school!).

Can I ask why you like to add H2O2 to your res? For the oxygen boost to the rhizosphere?


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## upthearsenal (Sep 27, 2010)

okay, so if you say res i think hydroponic res. i add it to my hydro res for many reasons, i also add it to my tap water to get rid of the chlorine quickly. i just became a habit, and then it hit me... 

i've also been having pH problems, and i think it's because of this.

also, what about adding apple cider vinegar to your water to drop pH?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 27, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> okay, so if you say res i think hydroponic res. i add it to my hydro res for many reasons, i also add it to my tap water to get rid of the chlorine quickly. i just became a habit, and then it hit me...
> 
> i've also been having pH problems, and i think it's because of this.
> 
> also, what about adding apple cider vinegar to your water to drop pH?


Sorry, res is an old habit. I meant the container from which you water your plants. Wait...we are talking about feeding pots full of dirt or hydro?

pH problems...i could see that being linked to H2O2, and the peroxide interacting with hydronium ions in solution.

apple cider vinegar (my favorite vinegar bc its local here) will work to lower your pH. But I've found that it will not keep the pH adjusted, and the pH will slowly return to tap pH. HAS ANYONE ELSE FOUND THIS TO BE TRUE?

Not a fan of citric acid to adjust pH? 

Peroxide to get rid of chlorine, that is genius. Never thought of that. But I do try to have my water drawn a day before feeding with it. I can't imagine that a mL or two of peroxide is going to wipe out the microbes.


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## upthearsenal (Sep 27, 2010)

i'm referring to my soil. i've added dolomite lime recently, and i figure the ACV will drop the pH, and the dolomite will stabilize it. i've never had pH problems and this is really lame.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 27, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> i'm referring to my soil. i've added dolomite lime recently, and i figure the ACV will drop the pH, and the dolomite will stabilize it. i've never had pH problems and this is really lame.


pH issues are the worst, and why i originally turned to the Bio Terra Plus.

To correct I generally overcorrect my a pH by a magnitude of 3. meaning, if your soil is at 6.8, and you want to get it to 6.5, then pH your water to 5.9 (the difference times 3)

of course, you can only take that so far without injuring your roots system.


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## upthearsenal (Sep 28, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> pH issues are the worst, and why i originally turned to the Bio Terra Plus.
> 
> To correct I generally overcorrect my a pH by a magnitude of 3. meaning, if your soil is at 6.8, and you want to get it to 6.5, then pH your water to 5.9 (the difference times 3)
> 
> of course, you can only take that so far without injuring your roots system.


what exactly do you correct it with?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 28, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> what exactly do you correct it with?


I've been adjusting my nutrients to have whatever pH I want without using UP/DOWN. Good nutes should bring the pH to 6.4 if you mix to label and use a double filter. Bio Canna does that and I've noticed some other high quality products do that too. Some supplements, like hygrozyme, can really drop your pH if you mix to label. I'm not sure what you are using but if you do a test you can compare how each product affects pH compared to your plain water. And if you let them sit for a few hours you can see if the pH goes back to tap pH, or whatever is going in solution over time.

You know, a little extra humic acid, or fulvic, or whatever you got that will drop the pH while keeping it organy.


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## upthearsenal (Sep 28, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> I've been adjusting my nutrients to have whatever pH I want without using UP/DOWN. Good nutes should bring the pH to 6.4 if you mix to label and use a double filter. Bio Canna does that and I've noticed some other high quality products do that too. Some supplements, like hygrozyme, can really drop your pH if you mix to label. I'm not sure what you are using but if you do a test you can compare how each product affects pH compared to your plain water. And if you let them sit for a few hours you can see if the pH goes back to tap pH, or whatever is going in solution over time.
> 
> You know, a little extra humic acid, or fulvic, or whatever you got that will drop the pH while keeping it organy.


muchas gracias, i can't wait to get my stuff for a new soil mix. this Pure Earth i'm using is almost decent, holds a bit too much water for being called an "aeration formula"


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## upthearsenal (Sep 28, 2010)

anyone work with Earth Juice natural up & down? or any other natural product like that


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## Matt Rize (Sep 28, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> anyone work with Earth Juice natural up & down? or any other natural product like that


Used the earth juice crystal down forever, then tried GH liquid down. Both worked well.


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## upthearsenal (Sep 28, 2010)

have you seen the super soil recipe on here? remove/replace a couple ingredients...


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## Matt Rize (Sep 28, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> have you seen the super soil recipe on here? remove/replace a couple ingredients...


Yeah, of course. I've been on here forever, just joined recently. Sub is the man, I convinced the dispensary to start carrying his beans.

Post edit: For those that don't know about the super soil:
"8 large bags of high quality organic potting soil with coco and Mycorrhizae
25-50 lbs. of organic worm castings
5 lbs. of Blood meal 12-0-0
5 lbs. Bat guano 0-5-0
5 lbs. Fish Bone Meal 3-16-0
¾ cup Epsom salt
1 cup Sweet lime (Dolomite)
½ cup Azomite ( Trace element) 
2 Tbs. powdered Humic acid 
*** If using an RO system add in 1/2 cup powdered Cal/mag " from his thread two clicks away.

I would like to point out that he is not using bulk peat/perlite/bark products from the nursery, but IN FACT using store bought pre-made potting soils that are a blend of soil and soil-less media that has been designed for organic Cannabis, just like me. But his has perlite... Of course, the major difference is that he adds his food from the start, I add mine as needed in solution.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 29, 2010)

FROM GFOYLE: "feeding regimen
Hey man, Could you help me with my proposed regimen for my next grow?

Whether you are familiar with the ingredients or not, any input is valued.
I hope to plant in biobizz all mix with some perlite/worm castings/dolomite and myco mixed in
I would like to try some vegan nutes, but I don't feel comfortable ordering canna. I can buy Pura vida, do you have any experience with that? I was hoping to use the grow/bloom with liquid karma and molasses. 

I also really hope to have a set up that I don't need to alter the ph of the water. I understand organic nutes lower the ph of the water naturally (after some mol+LK mine is around 7) and having humates in the soil keeps it from rising after watering. Any other tips?

Thank you!" 

anyone got some input? I haven't used the pura vida.

Your soil mix sounds ready to rock. A little more diversity being added to the structure/nutrient value with perlite/casting/myco is good.

I have recently heard good things about the pura vida, but have not tried it. Do a test with it by mixing some in water and seeing how it affects pH over the course of 24 hours. This will help you understand what is going on with your nute solution and pH. Molasses will feed the microbes and supply micronutrients, can't hurt.

If you are on the east coast, 7 pH might work out due to the acidic nature of the water. But if you are on the west coast, or anywhere else with alkaline water, 7 pH will prove to be too high over time.


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## Fluxcap (Sep 29, 2010)

Hey Matt, you seam to know your stuff. Let me tell you what I'm working and get your input.

First my soil

I mixed a bag each of Ocean forest, light warrior, and Happy Frog, with 15Lbs of earth worm casting, 3 cups of lime, 6-7 oz of Humboldt's Myco Madness, one cup Peace of mind tomato & vegetable 7-4-5 and few handfuls of perlite. 

I'm hoping this soil will carry me through veg and most of flower, do you think this is the case? I ask because I'm bad at noticing deficiencies until they are about to spread to the whole plant.

I also have a box of the entire General Organics line. I know how to use the Grow and bloom nutes as well as the Calmag but I'm not sure about all of the other bottles.

One bottle, diamond black is supposedly a soil conditioner containing Leonardite, Then there's a bottle of Bio-Weed which is made from sea weed and supposedly helps plants recover from stress, there are also few more bottles made from other things like squid and rock phosphate. One is to help the mycorhazie. 


Do I really need any of these products? I don't want to risk burning my plants but is seams like all of the bottles work together so I don't want to leave out a key part. 

I tried to build a soil that would nourish the endomycorrhazie, but if I can help them even more with all of the extra bottles I'll give it a try, whats your opinion? 

Thanks for your help.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 30, 2010)

Fluxcap said:


> Hey Matt, you seam to know your stuff. Let me tell you what I'm working and get your input.
> 
> First my soil
> 
> ...


Well, the good thing is that organics are harder to burn with, and you ARE good at seeing deficiencies already but just need the confidence.
Your soil mix sounds good for minimal feeding. Why would you mix so many media? I personally like to do that to, just curious.

The Diamond Black is actually something I use a lot of. I consider it a liquid version of awesome soil, that I add to my mostly soil-less media (your media is a mix of soil-less and soil base). You can use that (0-0-1) without burning, and you don't have to feed full strength on any of these products unless they need the food. 

And I've been a huge fan of seaweed products for a long time, they are a major portion of the PLANT BASED ORGANIC INDOOR SOIL-LESS system that I'm working on. (.2-0-.3) is also a rating that practically cannot burn.

The root boost is something that also, cannot hurt. I use lots of that kind of product early, and then just a little throughout. (1-1-1) can't really burn.

Don't be shy with the flower booster, (.5-.1-1) is also something that can't really burn if used on top of slow release. Just make sure to do a real flush (2 weeks plus) to get rid of all the food and get some good chlorosis (yellowing).

Deficient herb tastes the best...what can I say...my whole set up is based around being able to cut the food out at the end and forcing the plants to live off of their stores of chlorophyll. 

+ rep me if you like the answer, hope I helped. peas.

You should be good on food through veg and early flower. And if you use a tea now and then to refresh your microbes, should be gravy if your water is quality. Don't be shy with the flower food, your slow release is mostly Nitrogen. Deficiencies start either at the top or bottom, if anything doesn't look quite right, then it is not. Watch your pH both water and soil.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 30, 2010)

Yes, I have finally got both my flowers and bubble hash submitted for analysis. While submitting my samples I got to check out some of subcool's ganja. By which I mean GROWN BY THE SUB AND MZ JILL THEMSELVES! Greenhouse style! Very interesting assortment of flavors, I can't remember which one smelled like cream soda, but that was really cool. Uh...still my indoor veganic Blackberry Kush looks and smells better, but I may be biased  and I spent way more to grow way less. Update on the results asap. Peas.


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## JRTokin (Sep 30, 2010)

Hi matt, hows it going? Just wanted to ask if you could recommend me a good organic soil line and nutrients for my next grow.

I dont want anything too rich, just a good quality organic compost with a view to making teas etc. Im new to the organics world but having tried (and failed) a soiless grow in canna coco would like to attempt this in soil with some nice home brewed teas.

Ive heard good things about the canna organics line, is it possible to use canna terra bio plus with teas etc and get good results or would you recommend sticking with the canna line of bio nutes for ease? Also was looking to add some organisms to the soil, could you recommend any?

Thanks

JR


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## cerberus (Sep 30, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> You should be good on food through veg and early flower. And if you use a tea now and then to refresh your microbes, should be gravy if your water is quality. Don't be shy with the flower food, your slow release is mostly Nitrogen. Deficiencies start either at the top or bottom, if anything doesn't look quite right, then it is not. Watch your pH both water and soil.


how do you make such an assumption and not even have a veg time? if he isvegging for three months will it be the same? how big are his buckets? what kind of light is he using? (more power = more metabolism for the plant = more food consuption) 
sorry man, I like to read your stuff. but unless you have previuous knowledge about his grow alot of that info is off the cuff with little to shore it up.. how often does he water, does he water untill water drips out the bottom or just a taste? does he do flushing? is he going to flush?

way more questions could have been asked before a definitive answer would be appropriate..

again man, I don't mean to dog on ya, but I see horrible info passed on to people all the time and it gets quelched by responsible and knowledgable people (like yourself) setting the example..


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## Matt Rize (Sep 30, 2010)

cerberus said:


> again man, I don't mean to dog on ya, but I see horrible info passed on to people all the time and it gets quelched by responsible and knowledgable people (like yourself) setting the example..


Well cerb, I used the word "should" from the start because I don't know a damn thing about his grow other than what he gave me. You could help the guy out, instead of pointing out my lacking... nothing in my response was horrible... not like I told him to grow chemy hydro. 

Please do go back and notice the "should"s and "if"s that are peppered throughout my response. 

This thread is supposed to be about VEGAN ORGANICS anyways, lol. Keep the questions coming guys, I will do all I can to help get you started on the organics path.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 30, 2010)

JRTokin said:


> Hi matt, hows it going? Just wanted to ask if you could recommend me a good organic soil line and nutrients for my next grow.
> 
> I dont want anything too rich, just a good quality organic compost with a view to making teas etc. Im new to the organics world but having tried (and failed) a soiless grow in canna coco would like to attempt this in soil with some nice home brewed teas.
> 
> ...



The Bio Terra Plus is actually a soil-less media, with zero pre-charge and slow release food. Adding teas to the BTPlus without adding food won't do much unless you've mixed in slow release food. But, this media works beautifully with the Bio Canna nutes. Like, WOW quality. In BTPLUS you will have to give food with every watering, and teas will help your rhizosphere.

If you are new to organics, I would suggest one of two routes:
A) grow in subcools super soil, or some version of that. the issue with super soil is that it takes time to "cook" before it is ready to be used. this will allow you to just add teas.

B) go Bio Canna all the way: BioTerra Plus, Flores, Vega, BioBoost. Plus, get a cal/mag supplement, either way you go. You will have to feed a lot, but the quality will blow your mind, and the ability to flush will be like none other.


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## JRTokin (Sep 30, 2010)

Thanks for the heads up,
Im thinking of going down the supersoil line with teas. Will the subcools be ok to plant seedlings in or is it too rich? Also when do you start giving teas etc? Or is it just a case of watering through veg?


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## Fluxcap (Sep 30, 2010)

Well if it clears it up, I'm vegging clones in 6 inch pots, untill they are ready to transplant( I go by the roots, not the size of the foliage) Then I'm repotting in to 2.75 gallon pots giving the plants a few days to recover and switching to 12/12. I should have pointed out I'm trying to give the roots plenty of soil so I don't have to fertilize as much. 

Your original post helped me, sorry if this is the wrong thread for my questions.

Also I mixed all of the soils because they all brought some thing different. The happy frog and light warrior both have mycorrhiza, while the ocean forest has some good food. Once I mixed them the texture was pretty nice as apposed to any one bag on its own, and just needed a little perlite.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 30, 2010)

JRTokin said:


> Thanks for the heads up,
> Im thinking of going down the supersoil line with teas. Will the subcools be ok to plant seedlings in or is it too rich? Also when do you start giving teas etc? Or is it just a case of watering through veg?


Check out sub's thread, on the first post he says that his mix is not for direct planting of clones/seeds. And that it is more of a soil conditioner to be mixed and transplanted into with established plants. I've never used his recipe.

I give teas from start to finish. In the Bountea system you give the plants an inoculant (called Root Web) early, then more teas with food as needed.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 30, 2010)

Fluxcap said:


> Well if it clears it up, I'm vegging clones in 6 inch pots, untill they are ready to transplant( I go by the roots, not the size of the foliage) Then I'm repotting in to 2.75 gallon pots giving the plants a few days to recover and switching to 12/12. I should have pointed out I'm trying to give the roots plenty of soil so I don't have to fertilize as much.
> 
> Your original post helped me, sorry if this is the wrong thread for my questions.
> 
> Also I mixed all of the soils because they all brought some thing different. The happy frog and light warrior both have mycorrhiza, while the ocean forest has some good food. Once I mixed them the texture was pretty nice as apposed to any one bag on its own, and just needed a little perlite.


I assumed something of this manner... cerb: three month veg? really? come on now.
Hey, no worries about where you posted, glad to help.

Mixing medias: agreed for all the reasons you have listed.


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## upthearsenal (Sep 30, 2010)

okay, so if things go well i'm off to get soil tomorrow, would a FFOF, btp, maybe some light warrior and coco mix be good in your opinion? with added dry fertz, ie. kelp meal, worm castings. i won't be getting any pricey soultions, so i'm going to have to focus on making a great initial mixture instead. by the time flowering comes i should have more dinero for flowering nutes, so i won't worry about that now. i hope that mix will take me through a six week veg, with some supplementation as needed through foliar feeding.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 30, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> okay, so if things go well i'm off to get soil tomorrow, would a FFOF, btp, maybe some light warrior and coco mix be good in your opinion? with added dry fertz, ie. kelp meal, worm castings. i won't be getting any pricey soultions, so i'm going to have to focus on making a great initial mixture instead. by the time flowering comes i should have more dinero for flowering nutes, so i won't worry about that now. i hope that mix will take me through a six week veg, with some supplementation as needed through foliar feeding.


I like that mix plan, the light warrior will lighten up the FFOF and BTP, so will the coco. The kelp/casting will add more slow release (because the BTP has none, and the FFOF only has a little). 

You are doing some tea too?


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## kingofqueen (Sep 30, 2010)

Hey Matt what do u use for PH down? My best research tells me Apple cider vinegar or Lemon juice , which is more effective of the two ?


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## upthearsenal (Sep 30, 2010)

yeah, teas fosho. i'll also add this soil activator that helps promote indigenous microbes, and if i have any $$$ left over i might get some great white or something of the sort.

how's the pH of the btp if used by itself?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 30, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> how's the pH of the btp if used by itself?


perfect pH for the bio terra plus, that is the whole point. 6.5 ish. I still like to watch my pH, even if I'm not adjusting, just an old habit.


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## cerberus (Sep 30, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> Well cerb, I used the word "should" from the start because I don't know a damn thing about his grow other than what he gave me. You could help the guy out, instead of pointing out my lacking... nothing in my response was horrible... not like I told him to grow chemy hydro.
> 
> Please do go back and notice the "should"s and "if"s that are peppered throughout my response.
> 
> This thread is supposed to be about VEGAN ORGANICS anyways, lol. Keep the questions coming guys, I will do all I can to help get you started on the organics path.


your 100% totaly corrrect. I caught the thread at that point and I jumped on ya hard. my bad


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## Fluxcap (Sep 30, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> yeah, teas fosho. i'll also add this soil activator that helps promote indigenous microbes, and if i have any $$$ left over i might get some great white or something of the sort.
> 
> how's the pH of the btp if used by itself?


I just picked up some white Vinegar, 2ML dropped my 8.5 Tap water down to 6.7 
I'm pretty sure it wont affect the mycorrhiza, but I'm not 100%.


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## kingofqueen (Sep 30, 2010)

kingofqueen said:


> Hey Matt what do u use for PH down? My best research tells me Apple cider vinegar or Lemon juice , which is more effective of the two ?


Forget it ! got it taken care of !


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## upthearsenal (Sep 30, 2010)

Fluxcap said:


> I just picked up some white Vinegar, 2ML dropped my 8.5 Tap water down to 6.7
> I'm pretty sure it wont affect the mycorrhiza, but I'm not 100%.


right on, i've been using apple cider vinegar yet that takes about 30ml to drop the pH from 8.5 to 6.5. kinda sucks, i let it sit for several hrs before applying it, i've noticed that the pH is much more accurate if you let it sit


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## Matt Rize (Oct 1, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> right on, i've been using apple cider vinegar yet that takes about 30ml to drop the pH from 8.5 to 6.5. kinda sucks, i let it sit for several hrs before applying it, i've noticed that the pH is much more accurate if you let it sit


Are you adding vinegar to plain water? I've noticed this pH shifting over time, of which you speak. I've searched around about that and the opinions vary. I like to test all of my products' affect on pH over 24 hours. Of course, once the solution is added to the soil it becomes part of a larger pH equation.

I just watered, and all I used this feeding was some Bountea with root web, and the bio canna vega. I checked pH just for fun, and it was somewhere between 6.3 and 6.4. My filtered water pH is 8.0 plain. GO FERMENTED PLANT EXTRACTS and FRUIT ACIDS.


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## kingofqueen (Oct 1, 2010)

Is that you missed my question or what I would think that you have alot of experiance in this area and could provide an honest answer . 


So go back and look and see what you think I,d ask again but I feel offended .
(


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## Matt Rize (Oct 1, 2010)

kingofqueen said:


> Is that you missed my question or what I would think that you have alot of experiance in this area and could provide an honest answer .
> 
> 
> So go back and look and see what you think I,d ask again but I feel offended .
> (


wrote a super long reply, but i wasn't logged in and lost it....argh. rewriting reply, thanks for patience.


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## upthearsenal (Oct 1, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> Are you adding vinegar to plain water? I've noticed this pH shifting over time, of which you speak. I've searched around about that and the opinions vary. I like to test all of my products' affect on pH over 24 hours. Of course, once the solution is added to the soil it becomes part of a larger pH equation.
> 
> I just watered, and all I used this feeding was some Bountea with root web, and the bio canna vega. I checked pH just for fun, and it was somewhere between 6.3 and 6.4. My filtered water pH is 8.0 plain. GO FERMENTED PLANT EXTRACTS and FRUIT ACIDS.


yeah, apple cider vinegar in tap water, i think the pH just settles due to something on a molecular level, i can't remember for shit what it was but i'm sure it's googlable.

do you know of any plants/fruits one can ferment themselves? 

okay, well i'm taking that 50000000 mile trip to the hydro store today, i might have enough to get one solution, haha. should i go for the bioboost? 
what _exactly_ does it do for _you_? is it even used/helpful in veg or should i just wait till i get near flowering? idk! i'm just confusing myself now.


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## Matt Rize (Oct 1, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> yeah, apple cider vinegar in tap water, i think the pH just settles due to something on a molecular level, i can't remember for shit what it was but i'm sure it's googlable.
> 
> do you know of any plants/fruits one can ferment themselves?
> 
> ...


Yeah, the pH rising rising over time when using ph down affect...I'm sure I've read about it on one of these forums. I'll look into it later... chopping down the OD purple kush today.

I've recently seen a thread on here about using bananas in tea, that is a fruit acid extraction method, I think.

The bioboost has serious affects on flower production, and metabolism in general. But it is super pricey. I use a little in mid veg, to get things amped before flipping. Then I use it as directed (1-3 weeks flowering). You can foliar feed it, with a little surfactant, to seriously cut down on the use. Think about it: the bioboost is okay to foliar because it is just plant hormones (no poo, no food, just a 'tea' of sorts). You will only need a pint or two of solution, which is very little actual boost and it will go a long way. I do both foliar and feeding the roots.

Post edit: another possible affect of the boost is a shortened life cycle. I feel like my plants flip faster, set bud faster, and ripen faster with this stuff. I've cut 5 days out of an already short life cycle.


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## upthearsenal (Oct 1, 2010)

hmmm, interesting. that sounds pretty sweet. i guess i should just wait, i probably wouldn't use it for about another month. 

bananas- good source of K? i'm assuming.

get some pics of you harvest up mang!


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## GENERALIVXX (Oct 1, 2010)

ok i stopped reading after the 7th page, all I have to say is that i used motherfuckin bananas blended up in a blender with water as my source of potassium for my first grow with my two plants that magically sprouted up in my front and side yard, random genetics mediocre genetics, yet i still harvested a QP from 2 plants that werent even close to being finished, they still needed about 3 more weeks but needed to be cut down due to problems with my housing.. So you people that say that the MJ plants have been bred to take chemical ferts can suck a dick, ORGANIC PLANT BASED IS THE WAY TO GO the bud is of a much higher quality in flavor, smooth inhale, and high.. you dont get the nasty left over tastes from nasty chemicals, and you arent smoking something you possibly shouldn't be


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## upthearsenal (Oct 1, 2010)

GENERALIVXX said:


> ok i stopped reading after the 7th page, all I have to say is that i used motherfuckin bananas blended up in a blender with water as my source of potassium for my first grow with my two plants that magically sprouted up in my front and side yard, random genetics mediocre genetics, yet i still harvested a QP from 2 plants that werent even close to being finished, they still needed about 3 more weeks but needed to be cut down due to problems with my housing.. So you people that say that the MJ plants have been bred to take chemical ferts can suck a dick, ORGANIC PLANT BASED IS THE WAY TO GO the bud is of a much higher quality in flavor, smooth inhale, and high.. you dont get the nasty left over tastes from nasty chemicals, and you arent smoking something you possibly shouldn't be


really it's that simple? do you have any specific banana-water ratio you used?


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## moash (Oct 1, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> really it's that simple? do you have any specific banana-water ratio you used?


it really is simple...google it
it should be fermented for about a month
any kind of vegetation can be used
comfrey is a good one that alot of people use
legumes is another one


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## Matt Rize (Oct 3, 2010)

Here goes a funny link of me smoking some flowers and bubble from my last round to demonstrate the "no cough" claim I have made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C8-tMEk6T4

And some pictures in case you just joined the conversation.

The taste has been described as "a mouthful of flowers and blackberries"

And the affect has been described as "the first blackberry that got me really high".

The affect is soft and potent at the same time, which is a huge change of pace for those of us accustomed to smoking OG and Diesel all the time.


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## upthearsenal (Oct 4, 2010)

so i got some btp, and OF, but instead of light warrior i got promix. i might just grow in different mixes to find out which i would like. got any suggestions on a mix i could use? 
i want to run a grow straight on btp, but since i only have on bag i think i'd have to dedicate the whole bag to a plant.


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## upthearsenal (Oct 4, 2010)

the dude at the shop also mentioned the btp will be back at the start of the new year.


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## Matt Rize (Oct 4, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> so i got some btp, and OF, but instead of light warrior i got promix. i might just grow in different mixes to find out which i would like. got any suggestions on a mix i could use?
> i want to run a grow straight on btp, but since i only have on bag i think i'd have to dedicate the whole bag to a plant.


I used to mix two bags of happy frog with one ocean forest, plus 5 gallons of perlite and EWC and granular myco. For years that kept me without any serious problems, then I moved to Cali to be free and the water where I am sucks (varies greatly depending on source). 

Do you plan on mixing the ocean forest with promix to lighten it? And i know you have some ewc in the mix somewhere... right? How do you feel about additional perlite (say you were testing ocean forsest vs btp)?

Also. thx for the heads up of the BTP. I thought Canna would figure something out, we got the biggest effing Cannabis market in the world.


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## upthearsenal (Oct 4, 2010)

yeah, i need to harvest my vermi poop. i let it build up for a couple extra weeks so i should have about a pound of fresh ewc. idk if i want to add more perlite, but i do want to have a mix that's maybe 70% promix, 30% OF and then maybe, for comparison, an OF-heavy mix. and i'll add coco for more volume

i've also been looking into my guano source:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The bats don&#8217;t give us very much time to do the harvesting. Some years they don&#8217;t leave for their winter home until a really cold spell sends them on their way. Which is usually November or later. Then we have to wait another ten days to two weeks for the guano beetles to finish their job of digesting the guano and any dead bats into a fine, better smelling product. Actually the product we harvest is more beetle poop than bat poop".[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The shaft in the back of the cave, and the harvesting, has made the cave a better habitat for the bats. To show their appreciation the bats swirl up, each night, in enormous columns with a spectacular show. And when they are away on vacation they allow us to take from their summer home tons of the very finest plant food". [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-Malcolm Beck

[/FONT]more beetle poop than bat poop?! is that normal?


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## Matt Rize (Oct 4, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> i've also been looking into my guano source:
> [/FONT]more beetle poop than bat poop?! is that normal?


Yes, I believe that is normal. BUT... Did you notice he said the dead bats were part of the guano mix (wonder why they died...). In that guano mix is also anything else that died in that cave. And the he has confused "appreciation" with disturbance. This must also mean that they are entering the cave while bats are present, which is bad from an environmental stand point. And the part about the bats benefiting from them "widening" the cave is bs, let nature be. With a widened cave, who knows what can get trapped and die down there.


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## upthearsenal (Oct 4, 2010)

the cave they are talking about is owned by Bat Conservation International so i don't think they go inside when the bats are present. i still don't like it though, i just can't seem to find a good one, even if it is ormi


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## Matt Rize (Oct 4, 2010)

At least you aren't using dog poop like that one id posted the other week. I hope no one really tried that.

Natural phos sources that I know about are really just bat guano and soft rock phosphate. Last round I used a highly refined bat guano source (Nature's Nectar), but this round I am testing HN's natural flower. It is not certified organic, but consists of soft rock phosphate and kelp, with a 2% yucca extract. I want to see if I can tell the difference between phos sources: bat guano and soft rock.

post edit, the HN bloom natural also has 10% calcium, thats unusually high... right?


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## upthearsenal (Oct 8, 2010)

what's your opinion on human pee as a fertilizer?


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## Matt Rize (Oct 8, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> what's your opinion on human pee as a fertilizer?


Oh man. I've been discussing humanure over on icmag. I am against it personally. I consider human excrement to be a super last resort old school technique. That being said, I've been trimming some really great outdoor grown with humanure. And it is selling just fine. 

One thing to consider is that your urine concentration can vary greatly depending. I wouldn't piss on the indoor just because of the smell...


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## DudeLebbowski (Oct 9, 2010)

Very interesting information. What tea would you suggest as the best supplement?


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## Matt Rize (Oct 9, 2010)

DudeLebbowski said:


> Very interesting information. What tea would you suggest as the best supplement?


Alright, we gotta take it back cause I'm not sure how to answer

A 'tea' in our world refers to either an AACT or ACT. AACT= Actively Aerated Compost Tea. A brew of sorts from compost that has a high microbe count. These are used to refresh soil life and release food from the soil-food-web.

Check this out: http://www.gardenrant.com/my_weblog/2007/06/jeff_lowenfels_.html

A 'supplement' (IMO) refers to a product available in stores, that usually has a specific purpose. A common example is a Cal/Mag supplement.

With that in mind, I have to ask what you mean by best? Best for what? And did you mean tea or supplement? Thanks


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## moash (Oct 9, 2010)

i think he means "what fermented plant extract would u suggest?"
as in which plants to use
thats more or less what this thread is about, right?


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## DudeLebbowski (Oct 9, 2010)

My bad. 
I just misunderstood, I was really stoned.
I thought you meant tea like green tea or something


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## Matt Rize (Oct 9, 2010)

moash said:


> i think he means "what fermented plant extract would u suggest?"
> as in which plants to use
> thats more or less what this thread is about, right?





DudeLebbowski said:


> My bad.
> I just misunderstood, I was really stoned.
> I thought you meant tea like green tea or something


Dude: sall good brah
Madodah: come on now, that was a fair question I asked, my stoner radar was firing. and I used YOUR link! we are on the same team.


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## Matt Rize (Oct 9, 2010)

Now we can go back to new school teas. Traditionally teas have been brewed from compost and soil. This brewing includes a food source that the microbes feed on to reproduce and thrive. There are many quality examples of home-made brew kits and recipes available on rollitup.

The point of brewing these AACT concoctions is to increase life. This tea is usually filtered and the goodies (water + microbes + plant/microbe food*) are added to dirt to unlock the soil-food-web.

Products such as Mayan Microzyme are what I call "new school tea" products, in that they represent the other side of the tea coin. Mayan is a liquid microbe starter that we have covered in this thread, but is something that you can pick up from the store and use a tablespoon as needed to inoculate your brew. It is brewed just like an AACT, but the only ingredients you need are mayan and molasses.

When I'm not using an actual AACT, or Mayan, I like to use soluble microbes. Examples are great white, myco madness, and white widow. 

MORE LIFE!

* optional, depends on soil amendments and plant needs.


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## upthearsenal (Oct 10, 2010)

so then you see no issues using outdoor compost to make teas for your indoor containers?


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## Matt Rize (Oct 10, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> so then you see no issues using outdoor compost to make teas for your indoor containers?


Not really, what would the issue be? And my compost tea is coming from a closed circuit organic farm. They have chickens, but not in the compost. This compost is from: garden scraps, old bread, Cannabis stems, and hashed trim.


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## upthearsenal (Oct 10, 2010)

more of a clarification if anything, when i was younger i use outdoor compost to top-dress my plants and i had some horrible pest issues. that's an obvious mistake, but i'm sure if everything is filtered well and properly there really should be no issue. 

my compost isn't vegan, we throw a lot of egg shells in it. i still don't know if i'd use it though, i'm just weary of using anything from the outdoors indoors, i guess i'd have to take a good look at it when i finish the brew


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## Matt Rize (Oct 11, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> more of a clarification if anything, when i was younger i use outdoor compost to top-dress my plants and i had some horrible pest issues. that's an obvious mistake, but i'm sure if everything is filtered well and properly there really should be no issue.
> 
> my compost isn't vegan, we throw a lot of egg shells in it. i still don't know if i'd use it though, i'm just weary of using anything from the outdoors indoors, i guess i'd have to take a good look at it when i finish the brew


I brew in a mesh bag and only use the liquid. The spent brew ingredients get put back in the compost. That's the thing about using outside stuff inside, all sorts of risks. But I am trying to compromise and bring more sustainability inside. Can't keep buying tea starters forever. You can heat the tea, but not too hot. Maybe one of these guys knows how hot is okay. I think I read 100 degrees.


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## moash (Oct 11, 2010)

damn
a professor should know this


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## Matt Rize (Oct 11, 2010)

moash said:


> damn
> a professor should know this


mo - that was a set-up under-hand pitch to you... and you hit a line drive at the pitcher.


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## Matt Rize (Oct 12, 2010)

Taken from a wise old man who goes by CT Guy
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=110620&highlight=AACT

"It's Tea Time!

Compost tea has become increasingly popular in the last few years as part of a grower's program. In fact, current world record holder was grown using this technology. I'd like to take this opportunity to discuss different types of compost teas and share some of the knowledge we've gained in the industry over the past 5 years.
Let's start by looking at some of the different types of teas you can make for your plants:

Plant Tea - This is where plants are soaked directly in water for an extended period of time. Compost is not involved, and any bacteria or fungi on the surface of the plant will be extracted. May contain some soluble nutrients.

Manure Tea - Typically manure is placed in a permeable bag (burlap) into a bucket or barrel and left to soak for an (# of days) extended period of time. Compost is not involved, and will be dominated by anaerobic organisms (bacteria and ciliates). Pathogens will be present in most instances, and may burn the leaf surfaces of plants. These teas will contain some soluble nutrients, but may also contain antibiotics and growth hormones such as tetracycline, that are not broken down during the composting process.

"Put To Sleep" Tea - These teas are typically advertised as "instant" compost teas. Specific organisms are cultured or extracted from compost and then put into a dormant state. Even with hundreds of different species, it won't contain even 1% of the diversity or quantities you would find in properly made aerated compost tea. These teas may be helpful in certain instances when you wish to combat certain diseases and know the proper microbe that has been documented to prevent or suppress it (eg. trichoderma).

Compost Leachate - These teas is sometimes referred as "worm tea" as it is the liquid that leaches out of the base of worm bins or compost piles during the composting process. Leachates will consist primarily of soluble nutrients, but will contain some small amount of biology. This can serve as a good food substrate for the biology in your soil.

Compost Extract - Compost extract is where the microorganisms are stripped from the soil aggregates using water and extracted into a liquid form. This process will contain good biology for soil drenches, and can be made very quickly, as it does not require a brewing process. It does however require a large amount of compost relative to the final liquid product, and is primarily used in large commercial productions.

Non-Aerated Compost Tea - This is where compost is put into a container with water and foods are added for the microbes. The tea is then stirred occasionally or left to sit for a period of time. *These teas may or may not produce beneficial results and could potentially harm your plants depending on the anaerobic organisms in your starting compost.*

Aerated Compost Tea (AACT or ACT) - Similar to the tea above, this process involves adding oxygen to the tea and a food source for the biology in the compost. By creating optimal conditions for aerobic microbes, AACT allows you to multiply the biology in the starting compost by over 10,000 times. *Many plant pathogens are anaerobic and prefer low to no oxygen conditions. By making sure the tea and the compost itself are well oxygenated and highly aerobic, you can potentially eliminate 75 percent of the potential plant-disease-causing bacteria and plant-toxic products.*
For the past 5 years, AACT has become the standard within the organic industry in regards to compost teas. It's currently being used by golf courses, vineyards, farmers, and homeowners as a means of growing healthier plants. Here's a list of some of the benefits:

Compost tea has been shown to help in disease-suppression (pythium, phytopthera, powdery mildew, fusarium, etc.) when applied as a foliar spray and soil drench. 

Helps extend root systems 

Increases water and nutrient retention 

Is 100% safe and natural

Creates healthier plants

Helps breakdown of toxins in the soil and on the plants 

Enhances the taste of fruits and vegetables 

Reduces or eliminates the need for chemical pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers 

Occupies the space around the infection sites so disease-causing organisms cannot penetrate into the tissues of the plant 

Cannot be over-applied because it is completely natural and organic

These benefits are all attributed to well-made AACT. If the tea is not made properly, you will not see all of the benefits listed above. Let's take a closer look at what goes into making quality aerated compost tea.

1. Good compost is very important! Without good biology in the compost, you really have no chance of getting high-quality tea. You can only multiply what you put into your brewer, therefore good compost that has been tested to have high numbers and a diversity of beneficial organisms is essential. A lot of science goes into making good compost, and unless you test your compost you really have no idea if what you are putting into your brewer is truly beneficial. By adjusting the type of compost you put in the brewer you can control whether your tea is going to be bacterial or fungal dominated. We use a mix of 3 different composts (Alaska humus, vermicompost, and a fungal compost comprised of woody materials) to increase the biological diversity in our teas.

2. Food is critical for the microorganisms so that they can reproduce and grow in numbers. *The goal is to maximize your output of beneficial biology without giving the bacteria and fungi too much food that they over-replicate and cause the tea to go anaerobic*. It's important that dissolved oxygen levels stay above 6 mg/l during the entire brewing cycle. There are many different recipes out there, each of which will give you different biology in the end and some are much better than others. It is important to see the lab results of the recipe you use to make sure that you are indeed maximizing your final product.

3. Oxygen! All living organisms need oxygen to survive, and your tea is no exception. *If you're not getting enough oxygen in your brew, then your tea will go anaerobic and you will start brewing the "bad" organisms (pathogens such as e.coli or root feeding nematodes) that may have existed in your original compost.* If your tea has enough oxygen and stays aerobic for the entire brew cycle, what you'll have at the end will be the good biology that you want for your plants.

In addition to these variables, other things to consider are elevation, temperature, brewing time, and water quality. All of these variables can have a significant impact on your final tea. With significant elevation, you may need to increase the brewing time, due to the lower oxygen content in the air. *With high temperatures, where the water temps are 90 degrees or above, you'll want to shorten the brewing cycle and possibly cut back on the foods you're using. In cold temps., you'll want to increase the brewing cycle to give the organisms time to reproduce.* In regards to water quality, different sources will have different mineral or chemical content, which will affect your final tea. In the case of chlorine or chloramines, these chemicals will need to be removed prior to adding the compost to the brewer.

In next month's article, I'll be discussing application rates, recipes, basic pointers, and common mistakes people make when building a brewer or in making AACT. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to email me at [email protected]."


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## Matt Rize (Oct 12, 2010)

"Tea Article part 2
In the last newsletter we discussed the many different types of teas that farmers and gardeners use in their garden. We then focused on AACT or Actively Aerated Compost Tea, which is an aerobic water solution that has extracted the microbe population from compost along with the nutrients. In simple terms, it is a concentrated liquid created by a process to increase the numbers of beneficial organisms as an organic approach to plant/soil care.
When building your own brewer, here are a few pointers:

1. You can't have too much air! Most homemade brewers aren't pushing enough oxygen to maintain good levels during the brewing process. One or even two aquarium pumps, typically isn't sufficient. Our extended life motor pushes 51 liters/min at 1.5 psi. I would consider this a minimum for the inputs that we use, as our original system provides even more aeration (though the motor has a shorter life span and is also noisier). If you decide to use aquarium pumps, I would send one or two directly into the bottom of the bucket, using glass bonded air stones or a coil system. Then, another aquarium pump should be pushing air directly into the mesh bag containing the compost. 

2. According to Dr. Ingham, nylon stockings don't allow for all the fungi and protozoa to escape into the brewer, or may become trapped in the stocking if used for filtering. If it is possible to avoid filtering, you're less likely to damage or be removing any organisms, though sometimes clogging can be a problem. We've discovered through testing, the optimum size for filtering compost tea is 400 microns. This will trap a majority of the particulate, while still allowing the microbes to escape.

3. Make sure there's no dead spots in your bucket. You'll want to avoid a square bucket for this very reason, unless you design an apparatus that will fit in to all 4 corners of your brewer. We use a coil method in our brewer, where the coil fits snugly in the bottom of the bucket and then spirals around towards the center of the bucket, with holes every 1.5" to aerate the entire bucket evenly.

4. Avoid using small parts or pieces that will be difficult to clean. Airstones can be problematic for this reason, and you will need to be diligent in cleaning them if you use them in your brewer. Cheap airstones are very difficult to keep clean, and you will find the quality of your tea decline rapidly with each brew as bio-film builds up on the inside of the air stone. If you do decide you use air stones, invest in some higher quality glass bonded ones, and be sure to soak and clean them after brewing. 

5. Always clean your brewer right away. If you wait to clean it, it will grow anaerobic bacteria and begin to stink. I had a brew going in my garage, and ended up hurting my knee so I was unable to clean it out after stopping the motor. When I got back to it in a few weeks, I had to throw the whole thing away because it had so much bio-film built up that I could barely get within a few feet of it due to the odor! You can use hydrogen peroxide, bleach, or any other anti-microbial cleaner. 

Recipes:

There are many recipes available for making AACT. All involve the use of high quality compost. I'll focus on the 5 gallon size, though recipes are available in larger quantities. However, ingredients do not increase in direct proportion to the size of the tank, so please contact me directly if interested in recipes for larger brewers. Recipes are directly related to the amounts of dissolved oxygen in your brewer. As you add more food sources for the microbes, you need to add more air to ensure the tea stays aerobic (above 6 mg/liter dissolved oxygen).

Here's a recipe from Dr. Ingham of Soil Food Web Labs (www.soilfoodweb.com):

5 gal brewer
1 lb. compost
½ cup of humic acid
1 to 3 T. of kelp
1 tsp. of non-sulfured, blackstrap molasses

In our brewer, we use:

1 heaping cup of compost (approx. 1 ¼ cups)

½ cup of our foods (proprietary blend comprised of sulfate of potashmagnesia, feather meal, soymeal, cottonseed meal, mycorrhizal, kelp, and alfalfa meal)

1 T. of Tera Vita SP-85 Humic acid (optional for increased fungal growth)

We use volume instead of weight as a measure for our compost, as weights will fluctuate based on moisture content of the compost. We also don't use molasses because it is difficult to package and ship and also creates bacterial blooms, rather than slow growth of organisms, which may rapidly lower the dissolved oxygen levels in your brewer. However, it is a perfectly acceptable food substrate that tends to feed the bacteria in your tea. With all these ingredients, it is much better to start using less foods rather than more. If not looking at your tea through a microscope, I would use a recipe that has been tested and err on the side of too little foods, rather than too much.

Another thing to consider is that you want to maximize your biological diversity in your finished compost tea. We use 3 types of compost in our food kits: 

Alaska Humus (brought down from Alaska, contains excellent biological activity and diversity, see www.alaskahumus.com or www.alaskamagic.com for more information)

Vermicompost (Woody materials, vegetable food scraps, cardboard, and newspaper that has been composted by worms.) I recommend this material over thermal compost for people who like to make their own compost, as vermicompost tends to be the most consistent material since the worms take care of the composting process for you)

Fungal compost that is mostly comprised of woody materials. We add food resources for the fungi and strive for the highest active and total fungal content we can achieve.

*Brewing Temperatures:*
*There are a couple of schools of thought regarding brewing temperatures. One is that since the microbes in the tea will grow and reproduce most efficiently at 68-70&#730;F., this is the temperature at which you should brew your tea, regardless of the current soil or air temperature where you&#8217;ll be applying the tea. The theory is that since you are using the shotgun approach to growing microbes, whatever microbes are unable to adapt to the conditions will either die or go dormant, becoming food resources for the other microbes in the soil. Since soil and air temperatures will change throughout the seasons and even from day to night, these organisms are highly adaptable and you will get your best results with this approach.

Another theory, and one that Dr. Ingham subscribes to, is that you want to brew at the ambient temperature you will be applying the tea. Therefore, if you are applying your tea as a soil drench on 60 degree soil, you&#8217;ll want to brew at 60 degrees. You may need to extend your brewing cycle a bit for the colder temperatures, but this method will select for the organisms that will be most successful at the current temperatures in your soil and you won&#8217;t suffer as much organism loss.

I believe we need much more research to determine the most effective brewing temperatures for AACT. However, since I haven&#8217;t seen conclusive data either way, I tend to lean towards brewing at ambient temperatures, though this requires a bit more knowledge about your brewer and brewing cycle, as you will need to adjust your brewing time based on the temperature.
*
Application:

AACT can be applied in a variety of ways. One benefit of AACT is that it can't be over-applied, as it is comprised of beneficial biology and any biology that cannot survive will just go dormant or die and become food for other microbes. 

Typical application rates are 20 gallons/acre for soil drenches and 5 gallons/acre for foliar applications up to 5 feet in height. Water is merely a carrier, so the tea can be mixed at ratios up to 5:1, water to tea, in order to get an even application across your property. 

Depending on the size of the area you're spraying, you can use anything from a watering can to a backpack sprayer or larger. Make sure to avoid any pumps with an impellor or pump where the tea is being sent through something that could shred the fungi. Many people use the handheld pump sprayers or a pump backpack sprayer. These have been tested to not damage the biology, provided you don't over pump and hold the nozzle too close to the surface of the plant. 

Make sure there is not a 90 degree angle in your nozzle tip. You can only use a hose-end sprayer if you don&#8217;t have chlorine in your water supply. Think about the passage that the organisms will take from the brewer to the leaf surface of your plant and be as gentle as possible.

Other resources for information on compost tea are:

Keep It Simple, Inc. &#8211; My company which produces compost tea brewers, composts, and other biological amendments (humic acids, seaweed, etc..) www.simplici-tea.com

Soil Food Web, Inc. &#8211; Soil Testing labs established by Dr. Elaine Ingham. Check out the &#8220;About Us&#8221; section and click on &#8220;Sustainable Approach&#8221; for more information on compost teas and the soil food web. You can also purchase &#8220;The Compost Tea Brewing Manual&#8221; by Dr. Ingham through this site. www.soilfoodweb.com 

Microbe Organics &#8211; Tim Wilson in Canada has a site that is more focused on the microscopic aspects of compost teas. You can view his microscope work and also purchase his DVD if you plan on looking at your tea under a microscope. www.microbeorganics.com 

Teaming with Microbes &#8211; Excellent book by Jeff Lowenfels on organic gardening using beneficial microbes. I highly recommend this book to everyone, you won&#8217;t be disappointed! We have it available at a very competitive price on our website, when ordering other products.

Since this is a relatively new technology, there is a constant stream of new research and information relating to aerated compost teas and biological gardening practices. It&#8217;s also important to test your soil and evaluate your garden or pumpkin patch to determine what deficiencies may exist. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to email me at [email protected]."

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=110620&highlight=AACT


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## upthearsenal (Oct 12, 2010)

okay, so i have a few questions about the bio terra plus:

do you reuse it? and if i want to, what should i do? flush, and amend?

what kind of amendments do you suggest? (promix, castings, kelp meal, dolomite lime?)

am i looking to keep my water/solutions at hydroponic pH levels?

can i simply grow organic in this stuff?


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## Matt Rize (Oct 13, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> okay, so i have a few questions about the bio terra plus:
> 
> do you reuse it? and if i want to, what should i do? flush, and amend?
> 
> ...


I do re-use the BTPlus, but I like to rotate and let it sit for a round. I use a little hygrozyme to help the roots breakdown, but who knows what in that stuff. It also seems like the roots eat half of the BTPlus by the end of each round.

I could see no reason this soil-less potting mix could not be turned into a "real" organic soil with amending and cooking, just like Sub's recipe. 

I do not flush, as by the end there is nothing left anyways. The BTPlus is built to not hold too much charge.

I am looking at trying pumice instead of perlite.

For amendments: you know the usual players. I like EWC and Soft rock phosphate. But I'll get you a bigger list tomorrow. Late here. peace.


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## moash (Oct 13, 2010)

> I do not flush, as by the end there is nothing left anyways.


earlier in the thread u were saying that u did flush...
that was one of ur arguments(a better flush),besides the poo
whats that about?
i have also heard(and plan to experiment) that its not necessary to flush...
whats ur thoughts on that?


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## Matt Rize (Oct 13, 2010)

moash said:


> earlier in the thread u were saying that u did flush...
> that was one of ur arguments(a better flush),besides the poo
> whats that about?
> i have also heard(and plan to experiment) that its not necessary to flush...
> whats ur thoughts on that?


By that I meant I do not try to flush with extra plain water after harvest when reconditioning the soil. This statement was a little out of context.

Flush traditionally meant adding so much water that 10% plus runs through. I do not do this. 

Views on adding plain water vary. Some think molasses during the last two week is good (to sweeten). Some do not (arguing that molasses is only about 65% carbs and lots of micronutrients that could affect how it burns). Much more on senescence and chlorosis tomorrow. Thanks.


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## moash (Oct 13, 2010)

10-4
cambio y fuera


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## Matt Rize (Oct 13, 2010)

http://www.socrtwo.info/senescence.htm

Here goes as interesting article on annual plants and natural senescence.


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## Matt Rize (Oct 13, 2010)

Taken from some jerk on ICmag:

"We know the plant is scavenging chlorophyll. What is chlorophyll - chlorophyll a is the universal primary photosynthetic pigment, it is:

C55H72O5N4Mg

Other forms of chlorophyll have differing carbon, hydrogen and oxygen numbers, but unless they have weaker structures it doesn't matter. The N and Mg are the same.

We can discount the carbon, hydrogen and oxygen as being of any real nutritional worth for scavenging leaves. Why? Leaves are responsible for producing sugars made of these elements. You wouldn't bust up the sugar factory to get more sugar. We'll revisit these soon.

That leaves nitrogen at 6.31% of the mass of chlorophyll a, and magnesium at 2.72% of the mass of chlorophyll a.

So this sounds good right? There's N and Mg for the taking. True. But it's not easy to get at. Surrounded by a network of bonds, the magnesium and nitrogen are at the centre of unsaturated ring structures with lots of double bonds. Double bonds will typically undergo addition reactions (taking new molecules on) rather than elimination (losing bits and thus degrading a bit).

Take a look at the molecules scroll down to half page here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorophyll

It's clear the N is no easy target. 

Now take a look at nitrate and the surrounding reactive (charged) oxygen atoms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrate

And ammonia (left hand side at top)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia

And arginine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arginine

Chlorophyll seems to be a very expensive source of N when looking at molecules it could be sourced from and the loss of a plants photosynthetic ability (and source of energy) that accompanies using it."


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## Matt Rize (Oct 14, 2010)

*blackberry kush flower %15.44 THC %0.23CBD %0.05CBN

blackberry kush full melt%52.64THC %01.27CBD %0.33CBN*


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## Matt Rize (Oct 14, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> *blackberry kush flower %15.44 THC %0.23CBD %0.05CBN
> 
> blackberry kush full melt%52.64THC %01.27CBD %0.33CBN*





STEEP HILL LAB said:


> Your results say alot. Bbkush does not ever test over 16 far as i know. So ur at the top of the pile as far samples we have seen. And ur melt tested super high too. 52 is f'ing strong hash. Thats stronger than some oil.


YES! VEGANICS IS AWESOME!


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## Matt Rize (Oct 14, 2010)

http://www.frenchgardening.com/tech.html?pid=3164873867231346

"Plants to the rescue of plants

Maybe it's because of their wine-making heritage, but the French are obsessed with fermenting various plants into special insecticidal, bactericidal, and fungicidal brews to use on...other plants. Remember the article on brewing an extract of stinging nettles in this column? 

Well, the nettle is the undisputed queen of the French gardener's vegetal fermentations. But at least a score of other plants are used as well, each for a very specific purpose which apparently has been evolved by experience. Some of them--such as pyrethrum (Tanacetum cinerariifolium, main photo above) you may have used for some time without realizing it. This plant would go unrecognized by most gardeners, yet it is the source of commercial organic pyrethrum, a well-known insecticide.

The exciting thing is that now, scientists in France are beginning to evaluate these concoctions in a serious way, and to standardize the best practices for producing and using them. Some plants, such as garlic, are not fermented but rather used in decoction (analogous to making tea) or maceration (in oil or water).

The basic method of fermentation is simple enough, which is not to say anything goes. First you need a container made of a nonreactive material. A 50-gallon plastic garbage can works fine. You need to cover your container during fermentation, but not tightly, or it might explode! Either punch some holes in your garbage can lid or cover the can with a piece of burlap or other cloth. While you can use smaller containers, 50 gallons is an optimal homeowner-scale size that is big enough to help moderate temperature extremes during fermentation.

An unheated garage or outbuilding is a good place to conduct the fermentation, the speed of which is temperature dependent. The higher the temperature--up to a point--the faster the fermentation.

The water you use is very important. The ideal source of water is rain, being free of calcareous minerals or additives such as chlorine which can retard or stop fermentation. If you must use hard well water, add a bit of vinegar to it to lower the pH. City water should be allowed to stand several days to allow the chlorine to evaporate before you use it for your extracts.

The duration of fermentation can range from a few days to a couple of weeks. When the mixture stops bubbling when you stir or otherwise move the contents, fermentation is complete. Check your brew daily.

It is imperative that you filter your extract. Doing so stops the fermentation from going too far, and also prevents globs of stuff from plugging up your sprayer or watering can when you apply the brew. Use a very fine strainer lined with cheesecloth, an old clean teeshirt, anything short of a coffee filter or other filter paper, which filters out too much.

Store your extract in stainless steel or plastic containers in a cool place, around 40-50 degrees F being ideal. French folks like to use 5-gallon plastic wine containers, appropriately enough. While a wine cellar is also an excellent place to store your extracts, make sure to label carefully!

Once you have your made your extract or infusion, you of course need to apply it. Most often, you spray it on, just as you would a conventional pesticide or foliar fertilizer, taking care to cover the undersides of leaves. But some remedies are applied as a soil drench. This is best accomplished with a good old-fashioned watering can.

Okay, now that you know the basics, here is the roster of beneficial plants and how to use them.

Wormwood (Artemisia absinthium) Perennial plant with silvery, aromatic foliage.
Action. Repellent, especially against cabbage butterflies and codling moth on apples during period of egg-laying. Fungicidal against rust on currants.
Fermented extract (2 lbs. of fresh plant material to 2.5 gallons water) Undiluted for rust on currants. Undiluted sprayed on soil to repel slugs. Diluted to 10% against codling moth and cabbage worm. Note: Do not throw detritus of fermentation on compost, as it will slow its breakdown.

Fernleaf yarrow (Achillea millefolium)
Perennial plant with ferny, silvery, aromatic foliage and white flowers.
Active ingredients: pro-azulene, a volatile oil; isovalerianic and salicylic acids (salicylic acid is aspirin, which is why a tea of this plant reduces pain and fever in humans.)
Action. Promotes compost breakdown; potentiates fungicides.
Cold maceration. 1 oz. of dried flowers in 1 quart of water; macerate 24 hours. Add to fungicide treatment, such as horsetail or tansy.

Garlic (Allium sativum)
Needs no explanation, except to say that garlic is perennial if left in place.
Active ingredients. Sulfur-containing compounds.
Action. Insecticide and fungicide.
Preparation. In decoction: chop 4 oz. peeled cloves and add to 1 quart water. Bring to boil, cover and remove from heat, infuse for one hour. Strain and use without diluting. Used as a soil drench, excellent to prevent damping off of seedlings. In oil maceration: Place 4 oz. of peeled cloves and 2 T. linseed oil in a mixer or blender and pulverize. Filter, washing the filtrate (and mixing in) 1 qt. rainwater. Store one week before using. Adding a bit of soap as a surfactant before spraying is useful. Effective against aphids and mites.
Note: This is a great use for spare garlic at the end of the winter storage season, which is beginning to sprout and taste unpalatable.

Cocklebur (Arctium lappa). Infamous biennial weed.
Active ingredients. Tanins, mucilage, resins, sulfate and potassium phosphate, calcium, and magnesium.
Action. Fungicide effective against mildew on potatoes.
Preparation. Use the whole plant before flowering. The root has the most active ingredients. In fermented extract, use 2 lbs. fresh plant to 2.5 gal. of water. Attention: strong odor! Filter and dilute to 5% before spraying on potato foliage. Also, just pick the leaves and use them as a mulch on your potatoes.

Nasturtium (Trapaeolum majus). Flowering annual.
Active ingredients. Sulfur-containing compounds.
Action. Fungicidal against canker on tree fruits. Insectifuge against white fly (repellent).
Preparation. In infusion, 2 lbs. fresh leaves in 5 quarts of water. Boil water, add leaves, infuse like tea one hour. Use undiluted on fruit trees. Dilute to 30% to spray tomatos against mildew.



Comfreys (Symphytum officinalis, S. x uplandicum). Flowering perennial.
Active ingredients. Allantoin, which stimulates cell multiplication. This is why allantoin is such an excellent ingredient for skin creams, especially for chapped skin.
Action.Comfrey is a powerful stimulator of all cell multiplication, e.g. growth. It stimulates microbial growth in the soil, and in compost, thus acting as an 'activator'. Comfrey stimulates seedling development as well as foliar growth.
Preparation. In fermented extract, use 2 lbs. of fresh leaves in 2.5 gal. of water. As a soil drench, dilute to 20%; as a foliar fertilizer and seedling fertilizer, dilute to 5%.

Spurge (Euphorbia lathyris). Hardy perennial.
Active ingredient. Euphorbone.
Action. Repels moles and voles, but must be prepared and sprayed to be effective. Having the plant on your property does not suffice.
Preparation. In fermented extract, harvest the stems and leaves; the terminals have the most active ingredient, from April to October. Caution! The milky sap of this plant causes skin irritations! Wear long-cuffed gloves to protect your hands and arms. Use 2 lbs. fresh plant material per 2.5 gals. of water. Spray around cultivated areas.

Bracken fern and male fern. (Pteridium aquilinum, Dryopteris felix-mas). Perennial plant.
Action. Insecticide and insectifuge.
Active ingredients. Gallic and acetic acids; tannin; cyanogenic heterosides; potassium; aldehydes transformed to methaldehydes after fermentation.
Preparation. In fermented extract, 2 lbs of fresh leaves to 2.5 gal. of water. May be fermented simultaneously with nettle or horsetail. Dilute to 10% before spraying. Effective against some pests of potato and grape, very effective against wooly aphid. Note: bracken fern is indigenous in many areas, especially in well-drained acid soils, and is often considered invasive, as it is rhizomatous.

Lavender (Lavandula angustifolia). Flowering perennial. 
Active ingredients. Over 250 different compounds!
Action. Insectifuge, insecticide.
Preparation. In fermented extract, 2 lbs. of fresh plant material per 2.5 gal. of water, dilute to 10% before using. For dried material, use 7 oz. 
In simple infusion, use 4 oz. of fresh plant material in 1 qt. of water, or 2/3 oz. of dried plant material per quart.
Note: If you live in a cool climate, your lavender will be less potent than that grown in a hot climate. Double the quantities or use dried plant material from a southern source.

English ivy (Hedera helix). Perennial vine.
Active ingredient. Heteroside which is liberated during fermentation.
Action. Insectifuge and insecticide against white fly, spider mites, and aphids.
Preparation. In fermented extract, use 2 lbs. chopped leaves in 2.5 gal. of water. In observing fermentation, don't confuse the foam caused by the saponins in the leaves with the gas bubbles of fermentation. Dilute to 5% before spraying. Beekeepers in the 18th century rubbed their hands with ivy to protect themselves from bee stings. Caution! The extract is toxic and must be kept out of the reach of children. Also, many people are allergic to the sap of ivy and/or to the fine hairs on the reverse of the leaves. Wear gloves to protect yourself.

Lemon balm. (Melissa officinalis). Perennial aromatic culinary and medicinal herb.
Active ingredient. Many aromatic compounds.
Action. Insectifuge against aphids, mosquitos, white fly, and ants.
Preparation. In infusion, 2 oz. of fresh plant in 1 qt. of water. Allow to cool, filter, and spray without diluting. Note: Do not use on seedling beds as it can prevent germination of seedlings.



Peppermint. (Mentha piperita) Perennial aromatic culinary and medicinal herb.
Active ingredients. Many aromatic compounds.
Action. Insectifuge and insecticide against aphids.
Preparation. In infusion, 4 oz. of fresh plant in 1 qt. of water. Allow to cool, filter, and spray undiluted.
In fermented extract, 2 lbs. of fresh plant to 2.5 gal. of water. Ferments extremely fast. Dilute to 10% before using. Note: Impedes germination so don't use on seedling beds.

Stinging nettle (Urtica dioica). Perennial weed.
Active ingredients. A cocktail of ingredients still poorly analyzed but including formic acid, as well as iron, nitrogen, and many trace minerals. Acts as an immunostimulant for plants. 
Action. Strongly stimulant to both microbial and plant growth, thus a compost activator as well as fertiliser. Insectifuge and sometimes insecticide against aphids, mites, and other pests.
Preparation. Use of the whole plant before flowering. Studies have shown that including the roots adds a fungicidal action to the extract. In fermented extract (the famous purin d'ortie), 2 lbs. of fresh plant in 2.5 gal. of water, fermented for a few days only. Dilute to 20% before using as soil drench or foliar feed. Use full strength as a natural herbicide (it kills with 'fertilizer burn' because it is so rich). Soak bareroot plants for 30 minutes in the pure extract or for 12 hours in a 20% dilution before planting to stimulate rapid establishment and vigor. 

The nettle reigns supreme among plants for fermentation in France. The fermented extract is sold commercially in garden centers, and clubs and associations of nettle fanatics exist throughout France. Needless to say perhaps, but wear gloves when handling nettles. It's not for nothing they're called 'stinging.'

Horsetail. (Equisetum arvense). Perennial plant and medicinal herb.
Active ingredients. Diverse alkaloids, nicotinic acid, silica.
Action. Insectifuge, preventive fungicide, plant tonic and growth stimulant.
Preparation. In decoction, boil 1 lb. of fresh plant with 5 qts. of water for 1 hour, allow to infuse 12 hours, filter and dilute to 20%. 
In fermented extract, 1/2 lb. of dried plant in 2.5 gal. of water. Dilute to 5% before using.
Horsetail, along with nettle and fern, form the Big Three among medicinal plants for plants, according to the French. I remember my Swiss grandmother gathering horsetail and drying it in pillowcases for use in astringent poultices.

Pyrethrum (Tanacetum cinerariifolium, main photo above). Perennial.
Active ingredient. Pyrethrins.
Action. Insecticide against aphids, cabbage fly, whitefly, carrot fly, and others. Does not hurt bees.
Preparation. Harvest the flowers when open, and dry them. In infusion, use 1 oz. in 2 qts. of water. Filter when cool and spray undiluted. In fermented extract, use 3 oz. in 2.5 gal. of water. Dilute to 20%. Spray after sundown or in very early morning.

Horseradish (Armoracia rusticana)
Perennial culinary herb.
Active ingredients. Sulfuric heteroside, glucosinolate.
Action. Fungicide against blackspot on cherries.
Preparation. In infusion, 12 oz. of fresh plant material (leaves and roots chopped) in 2 1/2 gal. of water. Filter when cool and spray undiluted. In fermented extract, 4 oz. of chopped root in 2.5 gal. of water. Use full strength on seedlings for damping off.

Rhubarb (Rheum rhaponticum).
Perennial potager plant.
Active ingredients. Oxalic acid as salt of calcium.
Action. Insectifuge against aphids, caterpillars, and other larvae. Repulsive to herbivores.
Preparation. In cold maceration, use 1 lb. of chopped leaves in 3 quarts of water; allow to soak 24 hours before filtering. Use full strength. This is a great way to use rhubarb leaves as you eat the stalks.

Rue (Ruta graveolens). Perennial herb.
Active ingredients. Tannins, heterosides, malic acid, glucosides, and others.
Action. Insecticide and repulsive.
Preparation. Harvest fresh leaves and stems before flowering. In fermented extract, 2 lbs. of fresh plant material in 2.5 gal. of water fermented for 10 days. Dilute to 20%. Repels mice, chipmunks, and other chewers. Spray against aphids.

Dockweed (Rumex obtusifolius). Perennial weed.
Active ingredients. Have not been studied.
Action. Fungicide against canker on apples and pears.
Preparation. In infusion, 2 lbs. fresh leaves in 5 qts. boiling water. Filter when cool, spray full strength on cankers. Treat young trees preventatively. Spring is best time.

Soapwort Saponaria officinalis). Flowering perennial.
Active ingredients. Saponins.
Action. Insecticide, insectifuge.
Preparation. In infusion, 4 oz. fresh material in 1 qt. boiling water. Filter when cool and spray undiluted. In fermented extract, 2 lbs. fresh plant material in 2.5 gal. of water. Dilute to 10% before using.

Sage. (Salvia officinalis). Perennial herb.
Active ingredients. Monoterpenones, including thujone, camphor, and others, aldehydes, coumarin.
Action. Insectifuge, fungicide.
Preparation. In infusion for insectifuge, 4 oz. of fresh plant material in 1 qt. boiling water. Filter when cool and use full strength. In fermented extract, 2 lbs. of fresh leaves and terminals in 2.5 gal. of water, diluted to 10%, against mildew on potatoes.

Common elderberry (Sambucus nigra). Large shrub to small tree. 
Active ingredients. Sambucine.
Action. Powerful repellant; fungicide.
Preparation. In decoction, 2 lbs. of leaves soaked for 24 hours in 2.5 gal. of water, then boiled for 30 minutes. Spray undiluted against aphids, beetles, caterpillars. In fermented extract, use 2 lbs. fresh leaves in 2.5 gal. of water. Use undiluted against shelf fungus infections on trees.

Tansy (Tanacetum vulgare). Perennial plant (invasive in sandy soils).
Active ingredients. Not studied.
Action. Insectifuge, insecticide, fungicide against rust and mildew.
Preparation. In fermented extract, 2 lbs. of fresh plant material in 2.5 gal. of water. Use nondiluted against cabbage fly. In infusion, 1 oz. of flowers in 1 qt. of boiling water. Filter when cool and spray undiluted against aphids, mildew, and rust. Caution: don't throw residues on compost as tansy inhibits its breakdown.

This season, why not experiment with this new (old) dimension of organic treatments? It's not only we humans who stand to benefit from medicinal herbs. The power of plants can come to the rescue of fellow plants as well!


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## Matt Rize (Oct 14, 2010)

"How to make EM-FPE (Fermented Plant Extract)
For centuries extracts have been used as elixirs for all sorts of ailments. Individuals would seek out certain plant materials that were known for their beneficial properties and ferment them to extract the desired benefits. This same technology can be used to extract properties from plants such as geranium to make a citronella extra for keeping away mosquitoes. Hot peppers and garlic are also known for their pest-deterring properties. If you incorporate companion planting (basil with tomato), you may find a winning combination to give the effect you want.

Weeds and other green material can be recycled into an organic foliar spray and insect repellent. During fermentation EM-1 is able to ferment weeds and extract organic acids, bio-active substances, minerals, and other useful organic compounds from these materials which are able to promote plant growth and repel diseases or insects.

What you will need:

A clean airtight plastic container, bucket or large tank with lid* 
EM-1 
Sugar Cane Molasses 
Water (use good water, preferably activated with EM-X ceramics) 
Chopped, fresh weeds & herbs 
Gauze or cloth for filtering 
A measuring cup and large spoon for stirring 
pH paper to check pH 
Fermentation aids include a non-metallic heating rod and a airlock.

*Please wash container thoroughly and do not use a glass container to avoid rupturing the container caused by gas production during the fermentation process.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recipe:

5 % EM-1
5 % Sugar cane molasses
45 % Fresh, chopped plant material like weeds & herbs
45 % Water


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Example to make a 20 litre bucket of EM-FPE:

1 l EM-1 (you must use EM-1, don't use EM-A!)
1 l Sugar cane molasses
9 l Water (use good water, preferably activated with EM-X ceramics)
9 l (1-2kg) Fresh, chopped plant material like weeds & herbs**


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you need different amounts of EM-FPE, use our EM-FPE Calculator


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Instructions:

Cut fresh weeds and chop up well (2-5 cm pieces) 
Put chopped weeds into bucket 
Fill the molasses with some hot water (approx. 60-80°C) and the remaining water (total approx. 40°C) into the plastic bucket 
Add the EM-1 to the mix 
Cover the top of bucket with black plastic bag and press down the lid on it 
Put weight on the lid. Take care to push out extra air from the bucket 
Store bucket in a warm place (20-35 °C), away from direct Sunlight 
Fermentation begins, gas is generated within 2-5 days, depending on temp 
Stir the weeds in the bucket regularly to release the gas 
The EM-FPE is ready for use when pH of solution is below 3.5 (this should take between 7-10 days). Put EM-FPE into plastic bottles after removing weeds by filtration with gauze or cloth 
EM-FPE should be stored in a dark, cool place at uniform temperature, but not in a refrigerator or in bright sunlight 
Use EM-FPE within 3 months 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spray on plants at 1:500 to 1:1000 
Spray on soil (to suppress disease) at 1:100 to 1:500 
** use plants and herbs like: mugwort, artemisia, clover, nettle, camomile, borage, dandelion, vervain, sage, thyme, rose-leafs - you could also add a few garlic cloves and chili pods."


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## Matt Rize (Oct 14, 2010)

http://www.permaculture.org/nm/images/uploads/Indigenous_Microorganisms.pdf

"Lacto Bacilli 

One of the major workhorse beneficial indigenous microorganism used in natural farming is lacto bacilli. This particular beneficial microorganism is popularly used in composting that specifically arrest foul odors associated with anaerobic decomposition. Lactic acid bacteria thrive and feed on the ammonia released in the decomposition normally associated with foul odors. So if you need to decompose or ferment wastes less foul odors, lactic acid bacteria is the specific bacteria to use. Its application in organic farming is enormous. In aquaculture, one of the problem is related to water quality. Poor water quality stresses the fish which in turn stunts their growth and affects their health. This is very evident specially on high density and tank aquaculture. The ammonia produced through fish excretions pollute the water and stress the fish. With regular addition of this beneficial microorganisms to the water, this ammonia problem is minimized, if not fully arrested. It helps hasten or complete the denitrification or converting wastes into forms not harmful to fish. 

Spraying diluted solution of lactic acid bacteria serum to the plant and soil helps plant growth and makes them more healthy. As it is applied to the soil or the leaves, these beneficial bacteria aid in the decomposition process, thus allowing more food to be available and assimilated by the plant. 

Lactic acid bacteria is also known to produce enzymes and natural antibiotics aiding effective digestion and has antibacterial properties, including control of salmonella and e. coli. To farmers, what are observed are the general health of the plants and animals, better nutrient assimilation, feed conversion and certain toxins eliminations. 

Here&#8217;s a simple method of collecting this type of microorganism. Lactic acid bacteria can be collected from the air. Pour rice wash (solution generated when you wash the rice with water) on a container like plastic pot with lid. Allow air gap at least 50-75% of the container. The key here is the air space. Cover the (not vacuum tight, allowing air still to move into the container) container with lid loosely. Put the container in a quiet area with no direct sunlight. Allow the rice was to ferment for at least 5-7 days. Lactic acid bacteria will gather in 5-7 days when temperature is 20-25 degrees C. Rice bran will be separated and float in the liquid, like a thin film, smelling sour. Strain and simply get the liquid. Put this liquid in a bigger container and pour ten parts milk. The original liquid has been infected with different type of microbes including lacto bacilli. And in order to get the pure lacto bacilli, saturation of milk will eliminate the other microorganisms and the pure lacto bacilli will be left. You may use skim or powdered milk, although fresh milk is best. In 5-7 days, carbohydrate, protein and fat will float leaving yellow liquid (serum), which contain the lactic acid bacteria. You can dispose the coagulated carbohydrate, protein and fat, add them to your compost pile or feed them to your animals. The pure lactic acid bacteria serum can be stored in the refrigerator or simply add equal amount of crude sugar (dilute with 1/3 water) or molasses. Do not use refined sugar as they are chemically bleached and may affect the lactic acid bacteria. The sugar or molasses will keep the lactic acid bacteria alive at room temperature. One to one ratio is suggested although sugar, regardless of quantity is meant simply, serving as food for the bacteria to keep them alive. Now, these lactic acid bacteria serum with sugar or molasses will be your pure culture. To use, you can dilute this pure culture with 20 parts water. Make sure water is not chemically treated with, like chlorine. Remember, we are dealing with live microorganisms and chlorine can kill them. This diluted form 1:20 ratio will be your basic lactic acid bacteria concoction. Two to four tablespoons added to water of one gallon can be used as your basic spray and can be added to water and feeds of animals. For bigger animals, the 2-4 tablespoons of this diluted lactic acid bacteria serum should be used without diluting it further with water. Lactic acid bacteria serum can be applied to plant leaves to fortify phyllosphere microbes, to soil and compost. Of course, it will help improve digestion and nutrient assimilation for animals and other applications mentioned before. For any kind of imbalance, be it in the soil or digestive system, lacto bacilli can be of help. 

One of the popular beneficial microorganism innoculant sfrom Japan (EM) contains lactic acid bacteria as its major component, including photosynthetic bacteria, yeasts, actinomycetes and fermenting fungi. These are pure culture imported from Japan and can be subcultured through the use of sugar or molasses. These other microbes can be cultured in several ways by farmers themselves. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Forest Beneficial Microorganisms 

One technique in culturing other beneficial microorganism is getting them fro your local aged forest. One way is finding a healthy old robust tree in your local forest. Check the humus litter around the tree. The tree should have accumulated real deep humus, litter, compost of at least 2 feet to 1 yard deep. In this area through observation, we can deduce that soil fertility and microbial biodiversity are high. Our goal is to trap and culture these diversed, aged beneficial indigenous microorganisms. The technique that we use in trapping these microorganisms is the use of carbohydrate like cooked rice. Microorganisms will be attracted to food. So generally, what we do is to put the cooked rice on a flatter container with lid. For example, you can use a plastic lunch box and add about an inch of cooked rice allowing air space in the container. What is important here is a larger area to trap those microorganisms. It is suggested that you cover this container with metal netting or equivalent protecting it from animals like rats that may undig your container once you bury it in the litter, humus of your local forest. In 2-10 days (relative to temperature), you may undig your container and will notice contamination of microorganisms like white and other color molds on the cooked rice. The cooked rice has been infected now with microorganisms of your local forest. The next step is to add 1/3 amount of crude sugar or molasses to the infected cooked rice. After a week, the concoction will look like sticky, liquidy rice. You may then add equal amount of crude sugar or molasses to keep it for storage, arresting microbial activities, in a cooler area. To use, you may dilute this serum with 20 parts water. This diluted form shall then serve as your basic forest microorganisms. You may strain it and put in a container. 

Another version of trapping similar forest microorganisms is simply getting the litter, humus and spreading them sparingly to the top your cooked rice. Forest leaf molds can also be used. The same procedure will be followed as described in the culture of local forest microorganisms. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Bamboo Microorganisms 

Another method of gathering microorganism is through burying your container with cooked rice on bamboo plants litter. Apparently, bamboo through observation and experience in the East, attracts powerful beneficial microorganisms as the roots of the bamboo exude sugary substances that attract beneficial microorganisms. The same procedure is followed as described before in its culture. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Plant Specific Microorganisms 

An equal specific method is trapping beneficial microorganisms of specific plants you want to grow or growing. For example, if you want to trap and culture beneficial microorganisms from rice, you should then select healthy, vigorous rice plant, cut them and put inverted cooked rice container over the cut rice plant. Again, beneficial microorganisms specific to rice will be attracted to the cooked rice. You can use this technique to any other plant of choice and the same procedure of culture will be used as previously described. 

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Rhizobium Nitrogen-Fixing Bacteria 

One of the most popular nitrogen-fixing bacteria is rhizobium. It is amazing that when we coat our legumes with these specific bacteria, legumes grow well and more nitrogen is fixed on the soil. Amazingly enough, basic culture of these beneficial bacteria is simple. Once we have seen those nodules created by the bacteria fixing nitrogen on the roots of the legumes, we can assume that there are lots of these rhizobia and nitrogen fixed. Just pull out the legumes plants on a very specific stage, especially towards their flowering/fruiting stage. A simple method of culture is simply get the soil with these leguminous bacteria and mix with crude sugar with equal ratio of crude sugar. Rhizobium bacteria will proliferate feeding on the sugar and thus can be mixed with your next batch of legume seeds for inoculation. Our concoction or recipe of beneficial indigenous microorganism (BIM) is 50% lactic acid bacteria and the rest is 50% of the other microorganisms cultured. So you may use 1part forest microorganism, 1 part bamboo microorganism and 1 part specific plant microorganism mixed with 3 parts or 50% lacto bacilli. The more diversed microbes, the better. However, we will still use 50% of the total beneficial indigenous microorganisms to be lactic acid bacteria. The rest you can experiment and make your own observations and formulations. I cannot really tell you specifically what microbes we get from the different sources we have mentioned. As a rule, I only use the above BIM for plants. For animals, I use just pure lacto bacilli for we have isolated this as described. We have used the bamboo microorganisms for fermenting feeds to be fed to animals. 

Different type of microorganisms thrive on different type of foods. As you can see, we use principally carbohydrates and sugars. But it will be equally important that we provide these beneficial indigenous microorganisms with other nutrients. In fact, we mix or add fermented plant extracts (fermented plant and fruit juices), ginger-garlic nutrients, brown rice vinegar and fish amino acid. That&#8217;s why in most instances, we mix these beneficial indigenous microorganisms with bionutrients to make it more effective. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Bionutrients 

In the creation of biological nutrients, bionutrients, the basic process is the traditional fermentation. Fermentation process is a better system than simple extraction like boiling the plant materials, through infusion like making tea. In the United States, where compost tea is getting popular in organic agriculture, compost is made into tea, sugar or molasses are added, fermented to increase microbial population. A simple general formula or recipe in fermentation can be done for plants. For example, seaweeds. If you simply infuse seaweeds (which are quite difficult to breakdown, therefore hard to extract active ingredients), you may not get a more potent extracted active ingredients. If you ferment the same materials by adding sugar or molasses, it is easily broken down (biologically) by microorganisms and thus making nutrient more available. Microorganisms get their energy from sugar in fermenting the materials. Most healthy foods are fermented foods. Through fermentation, food are easily broken down, enzymes created, nutrition improved. That&#8217;s the reason why fermented foods like yogurt or kimchi (Korean pickles) are more nutritious than plain milk or vegetables. 

In making bionutrients, the simple formula is to add 1/3 crude sugar or molasses and mixed with materials to be fermented and extracted. For example, let&#8217;s take papaya fruit fermented extract. We chop as thinly as possible ripe papaya, unwashed and unpeeled. We then add 1/3 crude sugar or molasses to the total weight or approximate volume of the papaya materials. Put the materials with at least 50-75% air gap and cover loosely with a lid and let it ferment for at least a week. After a week, you will notice some molds and microbial infections and will start smelling sweet, sour and alcoholic. The materials are then strained and liquid generated will be your pure fruit papaya extract. You can dilute this with 20 parts water. This diluted form can be used as bionutrient, using 2-4 tablespoons per gallon of water. Again, this extract can be added to animal drinking water and feeds, to compost pile or sprayed/watered to plants leaves and roots. This will be a good source of nutrient for plants or animals, and also for our beneficial indigenous microorganisms. Papaya extract is good source of enzyme pappain, beta-carotene and Vitamin C for example. So extract any plant material and just try to find out what kind of nutrients they have you can use for animal and plant nutrition. Should the materials you intend to use for extraction do not have much moisture (as compared to our papaya fruit example), you may add water enough to the level that will moisten all the materials. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Specific bionutrients, fermented plant and other material extracts we have used to a great success and you can adopt for their specific use: 


Kangkong (water spinach) Fermented Extract 

This is essentially used as growth promotant. Kangkong is sometimes called water spinach. It is a kind of vegetable that typically grows in fresh water. It can also grow in highly moist soil. It s basic characteristic is it grows very fast, similar to the rapid growth of kelp in the seas. To the natural farmers, this kind of plant or similar plant for that matter have natural growth promotant. In the scientific agricultural parlance, we speak of natural growth hormones like gibberellins, auxins and cytokinins. Plants that grow fast will have a better concentrations of these natural growth hormones. By observation, kangkong or kelp or even mugwort will fall on this category. Thus, axillary buds of kangkong, plants like cucumber, squash and watermelon will be good materials to ferment for this purpose. Once these are fermented, active ingredients extracted, you may use this to spray and/or water your plants. You will notice a great improvement in the growth of your plants. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Banana-Squash-Papaya (BSP) Fermented Extract 

One of the major fermented extract we use for plant flowering and fruiting, specially for vegetables, are extracts from banana, squash and papaya. Apparently, these materials have high level of potassium especially banana, and beta carotene. Although I have not tried a similar recipe using materials readily available here in the US, I will presume that materials substitute can be used. For your own experimentation, you can possibly use comfrey, squash and carrot. Le me know if they will work. In the Philippines, when we induce flowering of mangoes, conventional agriculture use potassium nitrate. We have tried with success natural materials high in nitrogen and potassium. Interesting enough, our local organic farmers have experimented using seaweed extract in inducing flowering of mangoes. Isn&#8217;t it seaweed extract have lots of natural growth hormones and trace elements, and good source of nitrogen and potassium? Check out the kinds of materials you can ferment and use to induce growth, flowering and fruiting. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Fish Amino Acid 

As a general rule, the higher the protein of the materials, when composted or fermented, the higher the nitrogen. We use a lot of fish scraps to generate high nitrogen on our fish extracts. Here in the US, fish emulsion is pretty popular. Again, on basic fermentation of this material, we use crude sugar or molasses, third ratio of the fish scraps. I personally like using molasses than crude sugar not just for cost considerations, but molasses minimizes those fishy odors. I have added lactic acid bacteria in fermenting these fish scraps that arrest the foul odors very evident of fish emulsion foliar fertilizers. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Calcium Phosphate 

A lot of agriculture advisers have used calcium phosphate for better plant growth, health, pest and disease controls. Natural farmers use this bionutrient very specific. Under the theory of Nutrioperiodism developed by a Japanese horticulturist, Yasushi Inoue in the 1930&#8217;s, plants and animals need a very specific nutrient relative to the stage of their development. In the plant, there is the essential vegetative growth , changeover and the reproductive periods. In animals, like humans, there is the infantile, juvenile and adulthood. It is not only critical to provide the right nutrient at the right stage of the development, but also critical to use or apply specific nutrient of calcium phosphate in the juvenile or changeover period. For the plant, for example, we know that nitrogen is critical on the vegetative stage as potassium is critical in the flowering and fruiting stages. It is however, the changeover period that is most critical that will determine the quality of the final reproductive stage. At this stage, an additional nutrient is badly needed by the plant. And this is calcium phosphate. Calcium phosphate is good for plants&#8217; &#8220;morning sickness&#8221;. It is the stage that additional baby needs to be fed or the process where flower/fruit is about to come. Ash made from soybean stems are excellent for this purpose. 

Here is a simple, natural method of generating calcium phosphate. Get eggshells and roast them enough to generate some good ashes. Afterwhich, dip these roasted eggshells on about equal visual volume of vinegar. Allow it to sit for a couple of weeks until eggshells are practically broken down by the vinegar acids. You may use this diluted 20 parts water and can be sprayed or watered to the plants during the changeover period. 

When this is applied to that changeover period, it will improve plant health and productivity. The use of calcium phosphate is important to natural farmers. This however, does not mean that we shall forget the nutrient timing application of other critical nutrients for plant growth both macro and micro nutrients, given at the right stages and combinations. 

We consider this very important bionutrient needed by the plants used by natural farmers. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Ginger-Garlic Extract 

The original recipe of the natural farmers of Korea use not only the ginger and garlic materials, but also Chinese herbs like Angelica acutiloba, Glycurrhiza uralensis and Cinnamomum loureirii. These Chinese herbs have one basic common denominator, they are good for digestion. We have used simply equal amount of ginger and garlic, less these Chinese herbs. This is our natural antibiotics we use for plants and animals. 

Remember the high level of sulfur on garlic? It is a good fungicide. The ginger-garlic extract is quite different from the plant extracts we have discussed. We soak the chopped up ginger and garlic in beer or wine overnight or 12 hours. Then we add 1/3 crude sugar and let it ferment for a couple of days like 5-7 days. They we add alcohol which stabilizes and arrests fermentation. The alcohol should be at least 40% proof. The active ingredients of the ginger and garlic is extracted in finale with the use of alcohol similar to herbal tincture we are familiar with in homeopathy. Remember that ginger and garlic are highly medicinal and highly nutritious. We have used them as natural antibiotics and in preventive medicine. We have used this concoction on chicks and chickens and have made them healthy throughout. Of course, we also use them when we see animal weakening and when they are sick. We have used them on fungal problems of plants. We have used them for rheumatism. The uses are enormous both for plants and animals. The potency of your plant extracts are relative to active ingredients that are available from the plants you are extracting. Most importantly, the part of the plants. For example, the energy on the plant part is most concentrated on the seed, fruit, leaf and other parts of the plants, to that general order. Seed is where the plant procreate itself. By simply adding moisture and heat, seed will germinate and will derive its nutrient for growth from its own seed. What natural farmers are saying is that the energy or nutrition is more potent on the seed, fruit will be second and on the leaf third. That&#8217;s the reason why when we ferment seeds like grain, our dilution for use is 1:1000 instead of 1:500. This is just a guideline. 

Sometimes, you can use more diluted form but with more frequent applications. There is really no clear cut rule. Things have to be based on experimentations, experiences and observations. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Designer Compost 

Improved, more potent, otherwise know as bokashi in Japan is essentially naturally fortified with macro and micro nutrients, or bionutrients and biodiversed beneficial indigenous microorganisms. 

Here is a typical recipe we use in the Philippines: 
- Rice Bran 10 kilos 
- Copra Meal 20 kilos 
- Coco Peat 20 kilos 
- Chicken Manure 30 kilos 
- Charcoal Dust 20 kilos 
- BIM* 1 liter 
- Molasses 1 kilo 
- Bionutrient 1 liter 
&#8226; Beneficial Indigenous Microorganism 

Similar recipe can be adopted here in the US, replacing or substituting similar materials above. A basic formulation that I use is very similar to the general formulation I use for animal feeds. Basic formulation consists of 80% carbohydrate, 17% protein and 3% Vitamin/Mineral. When we apply this formulation to our designer compost, we likewise find 80% carbon source, 17% nitrogen and 3% trace elements, as a matter of rule. 

For the rice bran, you can substitute wheat or any inexpensive grain bran. Our copra meal or the materials residue after extracting oil from coconut can be substituted with corn meal or inexpensive meal that has ample amount of protein. Soybean is a good substitute or any other legumes. Coco peat can be substituted with peat moss. I will probably use sawdust or any materials high in carbon and lignin. Any kind of grain hay can also be used. Any kind of animal manure can likewise be used. It is however ideal to use chicken manure because of its more potent ingredients as far as macro nutrients like nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium and calcium, not to mention its good source of micro nutrients. Charcoal dust is used for it is a basic carbon which natural farmers find a good media or substrate for proliferation of beneficial microorganisms. And of course, the use of molasses (as sugar source) that really improve the population of microorganisms since it is a basic food source for them. Bionutrient will be a concoction of high level of macro and micro nutrients. Depending on your goal, like higher level of potassium for example, we kind of emphasize our bionutrient with fermented extract high in potassium. Likewise, if your intention is to have a more potent level of nitrogen, our bionutrient shall emphasize high level of nitrogen source like fish emulsion or plant leguminous extract. You can likewise add and ferment rock dusts. The general key however, in this designer compost formulation or bokashi is potent biodiversed beneficial indigenous microorganisms and bionutrients. You may adjust this basic recipe relative to your requirements and observations. When you try to analyze our Philippine basic recipe, you will notice that it is pretty much satisfying the general formulation I have mentioned as to carbohydrate-carbon, protein-nitrogen and vitamin / mineral - micronutrients ratios. The real key to this recipe is providing a greater population of biodiversed beneficial indigenous microorganisms and bionutrients, with lots of carbon and organic matter. I bet you, it will make also good compost tea. 

I have deliberately included this bokashi in this presentation to show that we natural farmers consider beneficial indigenous microorganisms and bionutrients of great importance for soil fertility and animal health. As we establish a healthy fertile soil, we observe healthy plants, animals, community and planet. Living soil is dependent on biodiversed microbial populations and nutrients that create a stable, balance and harmonious soil that determines healthy plants and animals. As we &#8220;farm with air, water and sunlight&#8221;, and nutrient, we likewise farm with microorganisms vital to soil fertility. 

As sustainable agriculture is based on soil fertility to perpetually sustain production, so is soil fertility is determined by diversity and balance of microbial ecologies."


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## Matt Rize (Oct 15, 2010)

Kphlash said:


> Ya Prof Rize, been following you on here a bit, just never really started posting till i got real high the other day and couldnt stfu at work. so i figured id jump into some conversations here. Ya my problem with veganics is the soil construction. I am working on just watering the plants and letting them grow, but i havent found or made a soil where i havent had to add nutes to the water. any ideas, or we stuck with making teas and all that fun stuff


Teas, my friend, are always going to be helpful. The teas are how we control the release of food from the soil-food web. Without these teas you will be limiting yourself. But the "all that" bottled food is not neccesarily needed, especially if growing outside in a properly amended soil. BUT I grow indoors in a soil-less potting media that relies on the "all that" bottled food sources.


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## Matt Rize (Oct 16, 2010)

HELP PLEASE! said:


> DUDE IM GOING CRAZY HERE WITH MY CLONES I PUT THEM IN 8 DAYS AGO SOME OF THE LOOK LIKE OLD LETTUCE ( LOL) I THINK I GOT TO MUCH WATER IN THE INCUBATOR . I WOULD MAKE MORE BUT MY BUDDY BURNED UP THE MOM . NOBODY KNOW WAT CAN OF PLANT IT IS ! SHE'S A GIVER AND REALY NICE SOLD BUD .I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE HER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Can you post pictures? That would help.

It sounds like they have rotted from too much water/not enough air. What do you mean by incubator? Are you using a tray/dome combo? Or using a rooting machine?

If the trays are soaking wet, then let them dry out. Pour any loose water off, and take off the domes.

If you are using an aeroponic rooting machine, make sure the clones are not in the water, they should be getting a fine mist.

I would buy high quality spring water for the rooting machine if you are having problems and can't figure out why.

DETAILS PLEASE???


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## Matt Rize (Oct 19, 2010)

What does Organic Soil-less Mean? And Why Do We Use Molasses? Part 1

Molasses is commonly used by medical Cannabis gardeners, indoors and outside. The use of molasses is highly controversial on the ganja forums. We all agree that molasses is great for brewing ACTs and AACTs (Active Aerated Compost Teas). Molasses use, beyond food source for microbes in teas, is still a debate. 

Old school outdoor organic folks grow in the ground, or in an aged and conditioned True Soil. These folk are wise, but often limited in regards to advanced indoor soil-less cultivation. The old school growers claim "molasses has no affect at all on yield or flavor". They may be correct with regard to their style of growing. We'll get to that soon.

Most of us, the medical Cannabis cultivators, cultivate our medicine indoors for various reasons. We use something that is called an "organic soil-less" media in our pots (containers).
To understand how molasses is used indoors we must understand a few things.

1) What is a "soil-less" media?
2) Why is everyone using soil-less instead of soil?
3) And how does soil-less media affect beneficial soil life and the soil-food-web (organics)?
then...
4) What is molasses?
5) What are root exudates?
6) What does molasses do in a soil-less media?
7) Possible downside to using molasses...?
8 ) Do you use molasses during the flush?

1) What is an Organic Soil-less media:


Growing plants in containers without soil can be split into two categories. 

A) True Hydroponics, aka liquid culture: A nutrient solution is recirculated with food (usually synthetic) and this feeds the roots to make our precious flowers.
B) True Soil-less, aka aggregate culture : A nutrient solution is supplied to plants by watering through the media, and either drained-to-waste, or reused. 


Soil-less grow media has often been called hydroponics. But that is not exactly correct. Nutri-culture has been suggested to be a more accurate term for various forms of soil-less growing. And soil-less growing itself is separated into: Inorganic Media and Organic Media. Inorganic Media is also farther separated into Natural Media and Synthetic Media.


THE MEDIAS EXPLAINED:


True Hydroponics: circulating solutions, aeroponics, static solutions


Aggregate System -> Inorganic Media (Hydroponics) -> Natural Media: sand, gravel, rockwool, perlite, vermiculite, pumice, expanded clay.

Aggregate System -> Inorganic Media (Hydroponics) -> Synthetic Media: oasis, hydrogel, foam mats (PET) and (PUR)

Aggregate System -> Organic Media: Peat, Sawdust, Bark, Cocofiber (the non-soil dirts).

So I am growing in an Organic Media (BioTerra Plus), mostly peat, coco, and bark. But the majority of indoor growers are using perlite, which would technically make that media a combination of soil-less organic media and soil-less inorganic natural media. BOOM.

Next up: Why are the majority of indoor growers using soil-less organic media?

source -> http://ressources.ciheam.org/om/pdf/c31/CI020854.pdf


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## upthearsenal (Oct 20, 2010)

let's see your garden mr. rize


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## Matt Rize (Oct 20, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> let's see your garden mr. rize


ARGH. My Blackberry Kush autoflowered and I had to let her go. I cut the light from 24 to 22 and they just went to flower, should've known. But I had to do some spraying because my babies had mites, and didn't want to spray in the light. EFF.

This is one if the lower nodes, a few weeks into VEG. There are not SUPPOSED to be flowers here for anyone that doesn't know.






This is one of the fan leaves. There was 5 leaflets per leaf, then three, then two, then one, then tossed. This was all in veg under 24 then 22 then 24 hours of light.






This was last round, and how the fan leaves are supposed to look:






Super lame loosing my start, but that is what I get for messing around and letting other people do my cuts. Chocolate chunk plants will be brought home Friday, so picts of them soon come. They are already pretty big, in 3 gallon pots. And I've never done the Chunk before, but it is a fast finisher so hopefully I can find some stable Blackberry Kush for next round.


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## upthearsenal (Oct 20, 2010)

hmmm, you're slightly confusing me. by autoflower do you mean X strain crossed with ruderalis? an auto will flower independently, regardless of the photoperiod


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## Matt Rize (Oct 20, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> hmmm, you're slightly confusing me. by autoflower do you mean X strain crossed with ruderalis? an auto will flower independently, regardless of the photoperiod


The Blackberry Kush is of unknown genetics, but I do not think it has ruderalis in it. I think it is just a freak (genetically) and flowers at the slightest stress. This last batch of BBK autoflowered on the clone guy as well, and he let the mom go, so it may have just been it's time.

I need to go back to keeping my own mother plants, argh, seems silly when I know all the clone providers for dispensaries.


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## upthearsenal (Oct 20, 2010)

i see, that's pretty weird. i would have kept it around, unless it hermed uncontrollably.

i've got a blackberry sativa, i think it's black domino X raspberry cough... i've read this thing herms indoors so i might veg it quickly


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## Matt Rize (Oct 20, 2010)

I wrote an angry email about the synthetic micronutrients used in the BioCanna nutes, and I received this in return:

"Hello,

No animals were killed or harmed in the making of the product. No animal by-products are used in the nutrient. It is therefor Vegan by the definition of the Vegan.org website and every other web site I could find. Micronutrients are allowed under the guidelines of the USDA's National Organic Program under certain conditions which we meet. It has nothing to do with Vegan but does have to do with Organic. It is, therefor, Organic. Sorry, we feel we meet both definitions.

BTP was pulled from the market for quality issues that were appearing in random bags. Until the product and process are stabilized, it will be delayed in returning to the market with no identified date given as of yet. All that is up to our research department. We apologize for any inconvience this may have caused but are working very hard on getting it back soonest.

Hope this answers your questions.

Cheers
Ralph B.

--------------------------------------------------------
CANNA Research North America
It is not possible to reply to this email directly, please use the contact form on the website if you have more questions."


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## Matt Rize (Oct 20, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> i see, that's pretty weird. i would have kept it around, unless it hermed uncontrollably.
> 
> i've got a blackberry sativa, i think it's black domino X raspberry cough... i've read this thing herms indoors so i might veg it quickly


I kept one, and am removing any nodes that are way still flowering. It seems the bottom nodes are stuck in flower, while the upper are slowly vegging. Not worth growing to full flower, but maybe under 24 hours with lots of love it will make me a good mommy.


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## upthearsenal (Oct 20, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> I wrote an angry email about the synthetic micronutrients used in the BioCanna nutes, and I received this in return:
> 
> "Hello,
> 
> ...


you should attach your initial e-mail as well as the response.


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## Matt Rize (Oct 21, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> you should attach your initial e-mail as well as the response.


I emailed them via their website, so my original was not saved. I honestly did not expect a response. I pretty much said "listen you jerks, WTF is going on with your BTPlus media, AND WTF is up with the synthetic micronutrients in vega/flores? I told them they need to research what vegan means to vegans. I sent them the link to this and my other threads and told them I expect a response OR ELSE.


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## upthearsenal (Oct 21, 2010)

that's strange. so they have synthetic micronutrients in their biocanna veg&flores and are telling you that they are organic; that's what i'm getting from this...

edit: counldn't find a comprehensive list of the ingredients, but that sounds shady.


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## Matt Rize (Oct 21, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> that's strange. so they have synthetic micronutrients in their biocanna veg&flores and are telling you that they are organic; that's what i'm getting from this...
> 
> edit: counldn't find a comprehensive list of the ingredients, but that sounds shady.


Yeah, I had to contact OMRI, and they have revealed:

From OMRI: Re: Bio Vega and Bio Flores
"Restriction: 
May be used only in cases where soil or plant nutrient deficiency for the synthetic micronutrients being applied is documented by soil or tissue testing."


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## upthearsenal (Oct 21, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> Yeah, I had to contact OMRI, and they have revealed:
> 
> From OMRI: Re: Bio Vega and Bio Flores
> "Restriction:
> May be used only in cases where soil or plant nutrient deficiency for the synthetic micronutrients being applied is documented by soil or tissue testing."


whhaaaat?! fuck canna.
i was collecting my pennies to get a biocanna combo package, that had the veg,flores, and the bioboost, but what now? maybe this sounds crazy coming from a veggie, but i would rather use organic bone meal than something that contains synthetic micronutes..

_"Canna proudly presents the revolutionary and newly developed organic product line: "BIOCANNA". 
BIOCANNA products are *100% natural* and meet all the requirements for organic farming. 
This means they are legally checked and guaranteed ORGANIC! 

The Bio-Canna Range is tailor made for fast growing plants. This range contains essential organic minerals, fruit acids and oils that are beneficial to your plants and *ultimatelly to your health*"_


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## Matt Rize (Oct 21, 2010)

Right, eff Canna. Jerks. The Bio Canna line is practically the only "vegan" line that made it through Oregon's restrictions, so I am assuming (not for sure) that the other "vegan" lines are the same or worse when it comes to 100% natural/organic. EFF. Agreed on rather using something else to keep the synthetics out. Back to the drawing board.


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## upthearsenal (Oct 21, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> Right, eff Canna. Jerks. The Bio Canna line is practically the only "vegan" line that made it through Oregon's restrictions, so I am assuming (not for sure) that the other "vegan" lines are the same or worse when it comes to 100% natural/organic. EFF. Agreed on rather using something else to keep the synthetics out. Back to the drawing board.


yeah, thanks for the significant heads up. i guess i'm sticking with soft rock phosphate for now, yet i feel like i need something more.. i was looking forward to using the flores for supplementation but fuck it i guess.. do you have any idea why the GH vegan line didn't make it through oregon's restrictions? 

...opinions on technaflora?


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## Matt Rize (Oct 21, 2010)

Yeah... sigh. I still love everything about what they are doing with the vega/flores/bioboost. They are a step ahead when it comes to fermented plant extracts available in bottles. And the results have stepped my game up. BUT "synthetics = no way!" so it is onward and forward. 

Meanwhile my blog a compilation of my other threads here and on ICmag. Some really good stuff on here:
http://mattrize.blogspot.com/


A friend of mine swears by the technaflora plus, but I think it has even more synthetics. 

GO is pretty new and they are still dialing in the formulas. They didn't submit because they are a chem company too, and probably have more synthetics than biocanna. I'll contact OMRI and get back at you with what I can find.

For flower you can use the soft rock phosphate and seaweed to get a good PK boost. 

I still can neither confirm nor deny the presence of synthetics in the bioboost. I think OMRI would have mentioned that with the vega/flores.


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## Matt Rize (Oct 23, 2010)

First Part Here: http://mattrize.blogspot.com/2010/10/what-does-organic-soil-less-mean-and.html

*Part 2: Why use soil-less?*

The short answer is simple preference. The long answer is much more controversial. Here we go.

IMO soil-less organic media with soil-less inorganic natural media are ideal for advanced indoor gardens.

Here are my reasons:

a. Water Retention: Soil-less literally/practically means lower water retention in comparison to true soil. By having lower water retention we can feed more often, which is important when relying primarily on liquid/powdered plant food. Faster wet/dry cycles may speed up the overall life-cycle, a common claim of hydro growers.

b. Perlite: This goes back to water retention. The soil-less community loves perlite, although personally I am attempting to give it up completely for reason's related to my grow ideals. My mom and grandma explained to me the importance of perlite for container plants. Some plants need it, some don't, ganja LOVES it. In containers perlite helps fight soil compaction... but watering gently and slowly does as well.

c. Coco/Peat/Bark: These are the popular soil-less organic choices, although I'm not sure as to the proper label for the amendments. ie rice hulls, small sticks, EWC, and compost. These natural and organic products are great for growing Cannabis. pH seems to be the major issue in these products, as their buffering capacity is generally less than true soil.

Coco/Peat/Bark are extremely common for growing Cannabis. In fact, around here the majority of indoor gardens are soil-less organics. The common Cannabis designed potting mixes that most indoor folks use: Ocean Forest, Happy Frog, Promix, Sunshine, Roots Organics, Light Warrior, Bio Terra Plus, Humboldt Nutrients mix... these are all technically a combination of soil-less organics (peat or coco plus other stuff) and soil-less inorganic natural media (perlite). Of exception is the Bio Terra Plus which is actually just soil-less organic as it contains no perlite.

d. Control: By not having food in slow release form you are in control over what the plant gets. It is then your job to "read and feed" your plants. This really gives you the opportunity to learn what your plants uses (food) and when they use it (stage of life cycle). This also lets you push your plants to the max while keeping it organic.

e. Chlorosis: Advanced chlorosis at harvest may lead to smoother smoking flowers. Soil-less media has no slow release food, so Nitrogen must be provided or the plants instantly yellow. This is true until two weeks from harvest for all soil-less organics. Once the N is cut the green is literally sucked from the plant, by design for soil-less organics. This means the freshly dried herb will have a jump start on the curing process. The chlorophyll is consumed by the plant. This reveals the secondary pigments already present in the leaves and flowers but buried in a sea of cholorphyll. Secondary pigments (not green) include: purple, blue, lime green, red, orange, gold, and other light green colors.

Here goes the numbers for Bio Terra Plus. This is a super heavy (high water retention) soil-less media because it has no perlite.

Organic matter min 75% of gross product
Electrical Conductivity: 1.1-1.3mS/cm
pH (H2O): 5.5-6.5
Water Retention: 7.1 (gms per gm of organic matter)


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## plaguedog (Oct 25, 2010)

OMRI.... LOL

Give me a fucking break, pay them and get listed.

Keep on pushing bottles.


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## Matt Rize (Oct 25, 2010)

*blackberry kush flower %15.44 THC %0.23CBD %0.05CBN

blackberry kush full melt%52.64THC %01.27CBD %0.33CBN*

Matt Rize Blackberry Kush analysis by Steep Hill Lab


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## jemstone (Oct 26, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> Hey dog, why don't you get some rep, contribute, or GTFO. Seems you have been a member for a year and still have no rep. Maybe try contributing instead of just talking shit like a lil beeyatch.


C'mon now don't be a h8r if you cant handle the truth. 

Biogrow and biobloom would be brand names that come to my mind as vegan. One is derived from molasses and rock phosphate. The other is just derived from molasses. I also think that Humboldt Nutrients Organic line is pretty close to vegan. The only exception is the grow formula (*edit fish emulsion) that smells like shit and IMHO is not enough N for the 0-10-0 Bloom. 

Then again with all the pollution in the air, chem-trails, plastic trash islands in the ocean, radio waves and unknown government experements; why give a fuck about vegan plant food? 

Also cannabis is a heavy metal up-taker so IMHO organic smoked buds may have higher percent of heavy metals and carcinogens then properly grown hydro/chemical fertilizers.


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## Matt Rize (Oct 30, 2010)

I found this on another forum. This is a great review of Bio Canna products

"Test 7 - BioCanna = Bio Vega - Bio Flores - Rhizotonic - Cannazym - BioBoost 

BioCanna is a vegetable based line of nutrients. No animal waste products are used. Many people shy away from products produced with animal residues to avoid any possible disease contamination. Things like possible mad cow for example in Livestock based blood meal. This is a legitimate concern but rarely occurs with quality nutrients. In any case, this is very effective formula. They are composed of unique ingredients and rapidly build a microbial environment healthy for root development and stress resistance. This microbial world is rich in primarily acid loving fungal life and beneficial bacteria. 
Bio Vega supplies nitrogen in the form of " Betaine Nitrogen". This nitrogen is specifically designed to interact with sulfer loving fungus and bacteria. These organisms bind with the nutrients through enzyme decomposition and then "trade" these items with root systems within the rhizophere. The important feature to this is that the plant essentially chooses to absorb the nutrient or not. This results in very steady and predictable growth. Plants were not as large as other tests but maintained slow and steady progress throughout. 
Bio Flores is the major blooming component. It is also a high quality item and continues in the same theme of rich microbial environments. The stand out here is the addition of a number of Hops extracts. These items are known to enhance flavor and scent among resin producing plants. It is an ingenious addition in my opinion, created from the Cannabiscea family. These extracts are lupulin, lupulon, lupurol and humulon and they seem very effective. Nutrients here again are supplied through the microbial exchange of nutrients by promoting healthy root zones. The plants continued very steady, even growth into blooming and bud development was incredible. Plants were extremely resinous, and almost more putrid in smell than other schedules. 
All nutrients here also have large amounts of fruit based acids. Ascorbic and Salicylic acids for example that improve countless bio-chemical interactions within the plant and improve resistance to vascular disease. BioCanna prides themselves on plant health and general resistance to disease. They claim higher scent and flavour related oils over competition and the final product was potent and extremely stinky. Brix numbers are extremely high generally with Bio-Canna only rivaled only by Earthjuice. 
Rhizotonic is an algae based formula. This very similar to a sea-weed or kelp based solution. It's basically their all in one additive. It has an immense amount of vitamins and minerals feeding the microbial life steady through the schedule. The company claims the included "Oligossaccharides" are an important feature. It is a fruit based combination of simple sugars (fructose) and easily available to the microbial life. This result is a healthy rhizophere. A healthy rhizophere is rich in microbial life. Remember that the more microbial life present, the more likely they will out compete unwanted pathogens. With this in mind these plants are extremely vigorous and resistant. This is an important and extremely effective addition to this schedule. It is yet another solution that asists in a higher Brix. 
BioBoost is designed to promote phosphorus and potassium uptake. Both crucial nutrients in later flowering. BioCanna again uses incredibly unique ingredients here - tropical rain-forest plant extracts. These extracts promote fungal growth. This fungus is specifically efficient at transporting phosphorus and trades this nutrient for plant exudate's. Exudate's are incredibly important to fungal growth hence a "symbiotic" relationship occurs. Again, root zone health is the primary priority here. In organic situations that is of great importance. This solution works. 
Cannazyme is another enzyme based nutrient designed specifically to help break down organic material in the substrate. Although there is a dense microbial world already in process with this nutrient schedule adding enzymes assist in making nutrients available at a faster rate. Many times relying on only microbial nutrient availability in indoor, organic situations we don't necessary provide the plants with the total potential of residual nutrients available. These enzymes help decompose larger, anaerobic material like dead roots and organic material suspended in the medium. I find enzymes are an important addition to any indoor, organic environment. They keep the medium clean, maintain healthy microbial life and help plants absorb the full potential of available nutrients. Many of these added enzymes are created using bacteria. Bacteria typically thrives in higher concentrations when pH is 7.0 and above. Therefore many of these enzymes are generally unavailable because of the acid loving environment cannabis thrives in. Adding them can therefore be highly beneficial. 
This schedule produced wonderful herb and is easy to apply. Specifically because of the clever bottle design. The buds were full, incredibly resinous and smelled wonderful. The results were very similar to General Organic in fact although actual growth was in my opinion more predictable and steady. In applying nutrients I find steady and predictable growth through-out is significant. Surges in growth, as experienced with Marine based products for example, results in extended inter-node length and can lead to deficiencies because of sudden nutrient demands. I strive to achieve steady growth on all my schedules, and Bio Canna is in-line with that theory. I also noticed improved color using Bio Canna. Skywalker is 1/2 Dutch Passion's Blueberry and frequently shows blue and purple hues. This schedule showed more color than most second to only Earth Juice. Application was most efficient brewing an air infused tea as with Earth juice and General Organics. I find the Cannazyme should not be added until right before giving the nutrient tea to your plants. Enzymes work quickly and fungal microbial life takes some time to develop. I was impressed over-all and I think further studies with these truly unique line is important. It is expensive but you do get what you pay for. I used the manufacturers provided schedule. "


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## JRTokin (Nov 4, 2010)

Sorry to bug you again but i just wanted to ask if you know if its possible to do coco grows with organic teas? Currently growing in coco using A&B etc, but wanted to try a fully organic grow next time round. Ive heard that organics is not so great in coco due to the poor microherd. I would try with the canna line of bio canna soil but ultimatly this is similar to soil and you dont really have much control over the medium, as with hydro. It would be great to do organics in coco

Oh forgot to mention, i started on my current grow with biobizz but had to abandon this, it just wasnt helping my plants at all.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 4, 2010)

JRTokin said:


> Sorry to bug you again but i just wanted to ask if you know if its possible to do coco grows with organic teas? Currently growing in coco using A&B etc, but wanted to try a fully organic grow next time round. Ive heard that organics is not so great in coco due to the poor microherd. I would try with the canna line of bio canna soil but ultimatly this is similar to soil and you dont really have much control over the medium, as with hydro. It would be great to do organics in coco
> 
> Oh forgot to mention, i started on my current grow with biobizz but had to abandon this, it just wasnt helping my plants at all.


Organic teas can mean many things. They may or may not contain any food. Pre-brewed AACT teas like the ones bubbling at grow stores are microbes (and a rip off IMO). They add life to the media but not food. Peat and other organic matter gets broken down by these microbes, and this releases some nutrition. But coco isn't like normal soil-less organic media (peat/perlite/EWC).

If by teas you mean an AACT (life) with added foods (ie fermented plant extracts, soft rock phosphate, bat guano, chicken shit ect.), then you should be able to pull this off in coco. You will surely have to monitor pH as coco isn't a buffer like soil. I suspect coco houses a less diversity of microbes relative to peat/coco/bark, and this in turn decreases the overall pH buffering capacity of coco relative to peat/coco/bark.

Can I ask... why coco if you want to do organic/tea nutrition? 

I think better (environmental and fiscal) than coco is to re-use and condition a peat/coco/bark based media, which won't work for straight coco.


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## JRTokin (Nov 5, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> Can I ask... why coco if you want to do organic/tea nutrition?
> 
> I think better (environmental and fiscal) than coco is to re-use and condition a peat/coco/bark based media, which won't work for straight coco.


Thanks matt,
Theres a couple of things i like a bout the coco, firstly, when you screw up with over/under feeding this can be quickly resolved and it really gives you some control of what is in the medium. I just test run off and can see exactly what the plants need. In soil this isnt always possible and if you mess up it can take a long time to correct this. Its also difficult to see what the plant is getting at different stages of growth. The plants just seem to love the coco.

The aact with added food is definatly what i was looking for. This would be great if i could pull it off. I definatly want to go organic. Is it possible to just do a basic tea with molasses and chicken shit for vegging? What about adding calcium in an organic grow?


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## Matt Rize (Nov 5, 2010)

JRTokin said:


> Thanks matt,
> Theres a couple of things i like a bout the coco, firstly, when you screw up with over/under feeding this can be quickly resolved and it really gives you some control of what is in the medium. I just test run off and can see exactly what the plants need. In soil this isnt always possible and if you mess up it can take a long time to correct this. Its also difficult to see what the plant is getting at different stages of growth. The plants just seem to love the coco.
> 
> The aact with added food is definatly what i was looking for. This would be great if i could pull it off. I definatly want to go organic. Is it possible to just do a basic tea with molasses and chicken shit for vegging? What about adding calcium in an organic grow?



Nice, I use BioTerra Plus which is peat/coco/bark. I just started using this and have been mostly peat/perlite until recently. I have to run up to Kushland, The Discovery Channel is filming us today for something called Character in Cannabis, not quite sure about that. All I know is it's time to show the world how to smoke full melt clear dome bubble hash.

Yes, use calcium. Cannabis needs Ca almost as much as NPK, and at some points more so than P/K. There are some really good organic natural Ca sources, ie eggshells. I'll post more later but gotta clean up for the camera LOL. Peace


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## upthearsenal (Nov 9, 2010)

The Discovery Channel? I want to see it...

hah either way.. I've made a soft rock phosphate tea, but it never dissolved... should I crush this stuff, or is the stuff you use water soluble and mine isn't?


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## Matt Rize (Nov 9, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> The Discovery Channel? I want to see it...
> 
> hah either way.. I've made a soft rock phosphate tea, but it never dissolved... should I crush this stuff, or is the stuff you use water soluble and mine isn't?


And the next day two other guys from the east coast were filming us because they want to do a documentary on the MMj scene, they were talking about Sundance channel. crazy

Yeah man, grind it up. I've used it to mix in and top dress mostly. Maybe dissolve it in some pH down? then add it separate from the tea?


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## upthearsenal (Nov 9, 2010)

The Sundance channel, haha that is crazy. 

dissolving it in pH down sounds kind of fucked up... I guess I mainly wanted to make a tea so that I can just add everything together and also use the tea as a foliar feed. Can I ask why specifically pH down?


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## Matt Rize (Nov 9, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> The Sundance channel, haha that is crazy.
> 
> dissolving it in pH down sounds kind of fucked up... I guess I mainly wanted to make a tea so that I can just add everything together and also use the tea as a foliar feed. Can I ask why specifically pH down?


The acid will breakdown the rock, chemically, and make the P more available. I just said pH down because I assumed you had some. A mortar/pestle will help the process too. Maybe come citrus juice or vinegar instead of pH down on the already ground up rock to help dissolve it into the tea. Just BSing here, never tried that. Maybe try cooking it a little, separate from the tea of course, to use heat to break the rocks down.


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## upthearsenal (Nov 9, 2010)

right on, I do have that pH down stuff, but I don't like for soil, you know... 

I just mixed some SRP with apple cider vinegar and it worked to dissolve it pretty well.

thanks for the advice mang


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## Matt Rize (Nov 9, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> right on, I do have that pH down stuff, but I don't like for soil, you know...
> 
> I just mixed some SRP with apple cider vinegar and it worked to dissolve it pretty well.
> 
> thanks for the advice mang


Apple cider vinegar! Of course! So glad you are on RIU! Glad that worked. A little natural acetic acid to get the job done and done. I take shots of ACV, sometimes, I hear it's good for you. Sure enough wakes me up. 

I did some research on citric acid, aka citrate. It is a chem product, but it also has an important part in the Krebs cycle (aka citric acid cycle). I hear you on not wanting to use the chem products, that's for sure. That post is here:
https://www.rollitup.org/organics/378568-citric-acid-cannabis-horticulture-professor.html


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## Matt Rize (Nov 21, 2010)

Break it down: Matt Rize Veganics (very different than kushman)
BT Plus media. I'm using some grade 3 perlite at 20% on the first two transplants. then doing straight BT Plus. This helps the pot dry evenly.
Food/inoculants:
Alaskan Humisoil - tea starter in late veg to mid flower
mayan microzyme - tea starter in late veg
myco madness soluble and granular - most of the time
white widow for transplants - and early veg
biovega/flores and bioboost - pretty much by the chart
hygrozyme - replaces cannazym and you use way less. plus its organic cannazym is not
HN roots excel - meh, whatever right, they are kinda all the same.
natures nectar N - soy, the only vegan N product I know of, used as needed.
HN natural bloom - Soft rock phos and kelp, used as needed. high Ca content. 
Technaflora soluble seaweed powder K - used as needed. 
mineral matrix - general supplement, used in tiny amounts throughout.
cal-mag - i mix small boy water and RO water, so I need some extra Cal-Mag, plus its needed to supplement biocanna
humic acid - pretty much all the time, also with foliar
fulvex - Mg and fulvic for foliar
wet betty - surfactant , as needed, depends on how long I have to water and how dry the pots are
oh yeah, how could i forget, molasses. all the time, except the end. 

make sure to dechlorinate your water. let it bubble for 24 AND carbon filter it. this is for your micro-organisms, and your plants.

water pH has much meaning, but so does your water alkalinity, which is generally how much carbonates (CaCO3) there are in your water. Carbonates are good because they stabalize pH, but too much effs everything up. These can be tested for, and pet stores have these cheap test strips for aquariums. Don't think your plants are better than those fish! If alkalinity is important for them it is important for your plants.


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## upthearsenal (Nov 21, 2010)

Awesome man. That's a pretty comprehensive list, you must have everything dialed-in to keep things running smoothly.

Speaking of having your system dialed-in... I have a few containers where I've been mixing soil and the one where I removed the guano from the recipe and replaced it with SR phosphate is seriously lacking P, are there any other non soluble fertz that you would suggest? I was thinking maybe greensand, but I know it isn't too strong.. I don't want to try any "vegan" soluble fertz just yet, I'd like to see if can achieve great results with this system I have, I don't have anything in flower yet so I still have time to adjust. and there's always seedlings coming from the t5 area to the veg cab, so I can always evaluate any changes I've made in the soil. 

either way, I have a couple sativas that are eating up everything and show signs of deficiencies (even after I feed them with soluble nutrients via folia feedings), and I also have some some bag seed indicas sitting in the same soil, looking green and beautiful... so I know I can't make it perfect and some stains are just finicky but I do know this mix won't make it through even three weeks of flowering.. 

I might start up a journal but I figure if I'm too lazy to start it, then I'll be too lazy to keep up with it


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## jesus of Cannabis (Nov 21, 2010)

word for word what High Times had in their mag. this month, well January, but its interesting. Would love to get away from the whole chemicals and get back to o'natural, but not likely.


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## YungMoolaBaby (Nov 21, 2010)

It sounds like a lot of work, but the pics and vids tell me it pays off.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 21, 2010)

jesus of Cannabis said:


> word for word what High Times had in their mag. this month, well January, but its interesting. Would love to get away from the whole chemicals and get back to o'natural, but not likely.


yeah man, my twin sister wrote that article "ava rize" for kushman, and I contributed in big ways.

Kushman, and veganics is something I've been working with four cycles now. I'll post pics of my jack H that is going on now.


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## Rayne (Nov 21, 2010)

Did BioCanna change the Bio Terra Plus mix? I just read on their web site that it has been pre-fertilized with certified, organic ingredients such as bone meal and bat guano.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 22, 2010)

got2loveit said:


> i checked out ur blog!! i liked it alot but it only addressees experienced growers and mostly deals with making hash. i found useful some of the tips on the bubble hash but i would like if it were more like articles making an encyclopedia for growing our love through your experiences.
> ive been reading abit about the vegganics but u need the lovely freedom to grow, in order to do this. ive noticed lets say in stealth grows that being organic and using soil produces quite alot of unwanted waste. so i have been trying to figure out how to make a medium that will be reusable, organic above all, for continuous grows. and i would like to discuss this with u...
> otherwise i would love to see you experiment in a number of ways through your blogs.
> ive seen your open to discussion so my opinion is take some time to elaborate in a multitude.. i mean write for the new write for those who have started to experience and then for those who have experience... so u dont miss out on readers...


thanks for the feedback. you are so right. as for experimentation... i am working on perfecting the veganics, then back to true experiments. i pretty much consider dropping the poo to be an experiment of sorts. 

As for waste... you can re-use your media, but this changes the properties every cycle. And any pests will be perpetuated via this re-use. Indoors, I prefer to start with a clean slate for my media. I plan on changing this in the future but first things first. UptheA said I need to cut out the confounding variables, and he is right. 

I'm compiling an actual scientific grow journal right now. Posting it is too much work, so I'm waiting til the end. I'll give you the general layout for one days data, I guessed about the exact numbers because its dark and my journal is in the garden.

11/12/2010
8am: 74 F, 65% RH
12am: 67 F, 45% RH (lights off from 10 am to 4 pm)
6pm: 72 F 65% RH
11:00pm: water. canopy temp actually 79 F. vertical growth = 18 cm, ***FIM-ed
5 gal RO/5 gal small boy -> 7.8 pH, 98 ppm, 63 F
2 tbs molasses -> 6.7 pH, 120 ppm
1 tbs widow -> 6.6 pH 140 ppm
4mL/gal vega -> 6.4 pH 280 ppm
1 mL/gal Ca/Mag -> 6.5 pH 300 ppm
1 mL/gal HN roots -> 6.6 pH 320 ppm
2ml pH down -> 6.4 pH 340 ppm

Bubbled for 25 minutes (because Venture Bros finale came on)
10 gal = Plenty of water, almost time to transplant again. 1 gal mesh bottom -> 2gal mesh bottom. need to turn on 1 more light. possibly hook up air cooled action & switch from 8" to 6" fan. snow on the hills.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 22, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> Awesome man. That's a pretty comprehensive list, you must have everything dialed-in to keep things running smoothly.
> 
> Speaking of having your system dialed-in... I have a few containers where I've been mixing soil and the one where I removed the guano from the recipe and replaced it with SR phosphate is seriously lacking P, are there any other non soluble fertz that you would suggest? I was thinking maybe greensand, but I know it isn't too strong.. I don't want to try any "vegan" soluble fertz just yet, I'd like to see if can achieve great results with this system I have, I don't have anything in flower yet so I still have time to adjust. and there's always seedlings coming from the t5 area to the veg cab, so I can always evaluate any changes I've made in the soil.
> 
> ...


Thanks bro. Phos... you know about the slow release aka non-soluble sources. Soft rock phosphate (SRP) being the best IMO. Greensand is good for phos and drainage. But I have the feeling you are in a high yield situation using perlite. I also think the roots can't exude enough weak acids to keep up with the demand. Your girls are needy to say the least (high yield situations). They run at super high levels of respiration and metabolism (i think of them separately). The need bioavailable Phos so they can uptake, but this phos also has to be soluble as part of the soil solution. The weak acid root exudates that the plant is pumping into your media during the dark cycle to make phos available may not be keeping up with your high yield needs. This could be because there is not enough source in the media, or the phos sources in your media are just too slow of a release. 

What did you mix in to the media for phos? What media? How long have you been root bound? aka When was the last transplant? peace


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## Matt Rize (Nov 22, 2010)

Amendments and rating: 
I had to leave out the poops, which are most of the phos sources. Maybe try some EWC/comfrey/alfalfa tea?

Greensand 0 1.5 7 Mined from old ocean deposits; used as soil conditioner; it holds water and is high in iron, magnesium, and silica - 32 trace minerals in all.
Eggshells 1.2 0.4 0.1 Contais calcium plus trace minerals. Dry first, then grind to powder.
Limestone (dolomitic) 0 0 0 Raises pH, 51% calcium and 40% magnesium.
Limestone (calcitic) 0 0 0 Raises pH, 65-80% calcium, 3-15% magnesium.
Crustacean Shells 4.6 3.52 0 Contain large amounts of lime. Should be ground as finely as possible for best results.
Wood Ashes 0 1.5 7 Very fast acting and highly alkaline (usually used to raise pH). Contains many micronutrients.
Crushed Granite 0 0 5 Contains 67% silicas and 19 trace minerals. Slow release over a long period of time.
Rock Phosphate 0 3 0 Contains 11 trace minerals. Slow release over a long period of time.
Epsom Salts 0 0 0 Provides Mg and acts as a balancer.

Herbal Tea Plant Food

1 t Comfrey leaves
1 t Alfalfa leaves
1 t Nettle leaves
1 Qt boiling water

Steep for 10 min. and let cool until luke warm. Drain the leaves out and add the luke warm tea to your plants to keep them healthy and vibrant!

The reason for adding slightly warm tea (or water) to your plants is that they will be able to absorb the needed nutrients more easily by keeping the root pores open verses cold tea (or water) will have a tendency to restrict the pores, meaning a much slower process of absorption.

Comfrey is called knitbone or healing herb. It is high in calcium, potassium and phosphorus, and also rich in vitamins A and C. The nutrients present in comfrey actually assist in the healing process since it contains allantoin.
Alfalfa is one of the most powerful nitrogen - fixers of all the legumes. It is strong in iron and is a good source of phosphorus, potassium, magnesium and trace minerals.
Nettles are helpful to stimulate fermentation in compost or manure piles and this helps to break down other organic materials in your planting soil. The plant is said to contain carbonic acid and ammonia which may be the fermentation factor. Nettles are rich in iron and have as much protein as cottonseed meal.


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## upthearsenal (Nov 22, 2010)

I'm sure it's just that I don't have enough available... I added only SRP and alfala meal for P.

I used a mixture of 3 parts promix with 1 part FFOF. also added 1 part EWC. Plus kelp meal, alfalfa meal, and SRP at 1 cup per gal. coco and dolomite lime were added, and I used a soil activator as well. I'd say the last transplant was around 10/27 from a party cup to a 4 liter container. A transplant would help but I need the space right now, and this girl would explode is she was moved to a bigger container.

Maybe I should just move up to using fermented plant extracts as supplementation... 

I've thought about using wood ash but my main concern is the alkalinity. What about a soft wood ash, gypsum mixture?


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## Matt Rize (Nov 22, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> I'm sure it's just that I don't have enough available... I added only SRP and alfala meal for P.
> 
> I used a mixture of 3 parts promix with 1 part FFOF. also added 1 part EWC. Plus kelp meal, alfalfa meal, and SRP at 1 cup per gal. coco and dolomite lime were added, and I used a soil activator as well. I'd say the last transplant was around 10/27 from a party cup to a 4 liter container. A transplant would help but I need the space right now, and this girl would explode is she was moved to a bigger container.
> 
> ...


I've never used wood ash. hoping nullis or or someone can help out here.

I'm thinking you may want to do multiple transplants next time. cup -> 1gallon -> 2gallon -> 3gallon. This way you can keep adding more amendments as the nutritional needs phase over to mostly PK from mostly NK. HN natural bloom is 0-10-0 and thats about as much bang for the buck as you can get for a liquid SRP based formula. I know... its in a bottle and not certified organic. but the ingredients are: SRP and kelp, with 2% yucca extract. It has 10% Ca too, so I also use it as a Ca supplement because I haven't found any straight Ca amendment that I like.


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## upthearsenal (Nov 22, 2010)

I guess what I wanted to achieve was my recipe turned vegan, it hasn't worked just yet, but there should be some way to figure it out. 

By no means am I an anti-bottle kind of guy, and my foliar feed recipe isn't cert. organic... I'll look into getting something, I know that what I have now with a bit more supplementation would be working pretty well.

good advice as always, muchas gracias.


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## RPsmoke420 (Nov 22, 2010)

Hey Matt

Had a couple questions I thought I'd throw your way. I attended one of Kyle's classes and it got me interested in trying this out. Awesome thread. 

Can you mix hygrozyme or cannazyme in the same reservoir with your beneficials/microherd? And allow them to sit/aerate? Should I be feeding with them every watering? 

How much molasses do you generally use? 

I remember Kyle Kushman talking about using both Hygrozyme AND sensizyme or Cannazyme. Do you know anything more about using both enzyme products? 

Opinions on SM-90? I think I saw you use wet betty, but I just read front to back... so I could be wrong. 

Do you use Nectar's Nature Nitrogen for every feeding in veg? What about their P ? And you do not use their K at all? Only use the Soluble Seaweed? 

Thanks


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## Matt Rize (Nov 22, 2010)

RPsmoke420 said:


> Hey Matt
> 
> Had a couple questions I thought I'd throw your way. I attended one of Kyle's classes and it got me interested in trying this out. Awesome thread.
> 
> ...


Alright I'll start by saying that Kyle and I don't grow exactly the same. I'm still using up the last of my cannazyme, and the usual hygrozyme. I use a different carb sources, and some other stuff.

Yes, you can mix the -zymes, BUT don't add them until the second before you start watering. They do not and should not be bubbled with your beneficial organisms. 

I'm not sold on the bubbling your beneficial organisms to make them grow, endomyco only grows in the presence of roots. I am only assuming that by bubbling the powder inoculants you are promoting the bacteria over the endomyco, which is self defeating as the endomyco will provide the precious PK for flowers. Kushman and I agree to disagree over many things and truth is the facts are just being revealed about Cannabis specific products like myco madness and great white.

Molasses: depends on the stage of life cycle. Right now, early veg for me, I'm using 3mL/gal. Kushman doesn't use molasses, he uses HN honey es. I'll go up to a tsp/gal (5mL) then to tbsp/gallon for a little in crucial flower formation time (weeks 3-6 flower).

SM:90 - boo. more and more I'm thinking aloe vera juice is the way to go for saponins. after my wet betty is gone (which will take forever because i use very little) i will be using something that I can buy bulk for cheap, like aloe vera juice from trader joes. or some bulk yucca powder.

Natures Nectar N : used as needed, gotta read your plants. yellow lower leaves means you need more N. you can step up the vega or go with NN-nitrogen if that is all they really need. 

Natures Nectar P/K: dropped from the system, not vegan. Humboldt Nutes natural bloom 0-10-0 and the technaflora is all you need. Use as needed. I don't start using the supplements until late veg or flower usually. Then as needed. The demands will vary by strain and environment.


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## moash (Nov 23, 2010)

would u consider eggshells vegan?
they r pretty much made of calcium...


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## sully (Nov 23, 2010)

Was wondering if anybody has seen products offered from a company called Emerald Isle Solutions. They make fertilizers and bio-stimulants, many containing sea plant extracts (some also contain fish extracts though). They are readily available to me in my industry and easy for me to buy. I'm a noob and am very intrigued by growing using this method and thought some of the products would be an option.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 23, 2010)

moash said:


> would u consider eggshells vegan?
> they r pretty much made of calcium...


Technically I would not consider egg shells vegan. BUT if you or your friends own those chickens I would not really worry about using a non-vegan Ca source. I'm no vegan nazi, local is always good.


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## RPsmoke420 (Nov 23, 2010)

> Matt Rize - Alright I'll start by saying that Kyle and I don't grow exactly the same. I'm still using up the last of my cannazyme, and the usual hygrozyme. I use a different carb sources, and some other stuff.


Right on. I am not set on "Kushman's" way. I am open. Just trying to learn what I can about the ideas behind "Veganics". 

So you are not planning on replacing the cannazyme? Continue to use Hygrozyme? 



> Yes, you can mix the -zymes, BUT don't add them until the second before you start watering. They do not and should not be bubbled with your beneficial organisms.


Got it. Makes sense



> I'm not sold on the bubbling your beneficial organisms to make them grow, endomyco only grows in the presence of roots. I am only assuming that by bubbling the powder inoculants you are promoting the bacteria over the endomyco, which is self defeating as the endomyco will provide the precious PK for flowers. Kushman and I agree to disagree over many things and truth is the facts are just being revealed about Cannabis specific products like myco madness and great white.


My understanding was that by bubbling the inoculates... you were "bringing them to life" so to speak. Making them more active. Allowing them to "hit the ground running" when introduced to your media. Just thinking out loud man. 



> Molasses: depends on the stage of life cycle. Right now, early veg for me, I'm using 3mL/gal. Kushman doesn't use molasses, he uses HN honey es. I'll go up to a tsp/gal (5mL) then to tbsp/gallon for a little in crucial flower formation time (weeks 3-6 flower).


Great info. 



> SM:90 - boo. more and more I'm thinking aloe vera juice is the way to go for saponins. after my wet betty is gone (which will take forever because i use very little) i will be using something that I can buy bulk for cheap, like aloe vera juice from trader joes. or some bulk yucca powder.


Very cool. Would be interested to see which route you go and how you like it. Would love an alternative to the pricey counter stuff. Have been told about Aloe, just haven't tried it. Also was told Soapwort (I assume the essential oils... but I am not about to make room to grow Soapwort to extract the oils. haha) The Yucca powder acts as a foaming agent, right? Wonder how that would work. Just about out of my SM-90 so up to try something. 



> Natures Nectar N : used as needed, gotta read your plants. yellow lower leaves means you need more N. you can step up the vega or go with NN-nitrogen if that is all they really need.


Good deal. Was just curious. Seemed like a lot of N at first. Makes sense. 



> Natures Nectar P/K: dropped from the system, not vegan. Humboldt Nutes natural bloom 0-10-0 and the technaflora is all you need. Use as needed. I don't start using the supplements until late veg or flower usually. Then as needed. The demands will vary by strain and environment.


Thanks for all the info

So... Just some random stoned questions: do you give your plants a heavy "boost" as they transition into flowering? Do you keep feeding N into flowering?


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## Matt Rize (Nov 23, 2010)

RPsmoke420 said:


> So you are not planning on replacing the cannazyme? Continue to use Hygrozyme?
> 
> My understanding was that by bubbling the inoculates... you were "bringing them to life" so to speak. Making them more active. Allowing them to "hit the ground running" when introduced to your media. Just thinking out loud man.
> 
> So... Just some random stoned questions: do you give your plants a heavy "boost" as they transition into flowering? Do you keep feeding N into flowering?


Yeah, I'm not sold this this, "buy every vegan product you can to get bigger yields" style that Kushman is into. I'm into quality and simplicity. For now, I think hygrozyme alone will suffice as the other products are just damn expensive. I need to do a test, half the garden with one -zyme, the other half with two... I need a commercial testing facility, but 19 failed so that's out of the question. Oh well. Probably for the best that monsanto isn't growing herb.

Bringing inoculants to life can apply to free living bacteria and fungi, but endomyco spores do not activate until they contact a root. so I can't pretend that bubbling endomyco does anything other than mix the spores well. Products like alaskan humisoil teas are bubbled to separate the microbes from the dirt, as much as they are to propagate the contained microbes. 

Yes, I keep feeding N into flower, weeks in all honesty with the Biocanna line. I use bioboost as the transition signal, and it works wonders. I do not boost ppm, I think that was your question. I actually am over the "spike" theory, that you can boost ppm to force the plants to respond. I keep ppm increases very gradual, and in fact feed about half as strong as kushman through the entire cycle. I also grow under 600 watt lights instead of 1000. And I prefer underfed to overfed herbs any day. 

My ganja smokes way better than kushmans. His ganja is way stronger.


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## RPsmoke420 (Nov 23, 2010)

haha well I like simple! Actually I just picked up some Cannazyme the other day. Haven't used it before. Figure I'd give it a shot along with the hygrozyme. See what happens I guess. 

I haven't played with any "spike" in PPM since leaving the chemical ferts. Learning as I go. Was just curious. I think it may allow more bud sites early on, but have never done a side by side. Like you, I use 600w and always choose to underfeed. I grow medicine, and quality is priority. 

So are you sticking with the Biocanna line? Even with the synthetics? I have tried the new GO line of "vegan" nutes. Was happy with it outdoors, but worry about the source. I also feel you need to up your micronute additive when using it but haven't used it enough to say for sure. An article you posted awhile back on the review of the Biocanna line said Earthjuice was a close second as far as flavor and such? hmmm


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## akgrown (Nov 23, 2010)

I have a truly vegan recipe,

I get seaweed and kelp that washes up on the beach and compost it with organic fruits, then make tea from it. It is great stuff, no animal waste and, you dont have to buy anything except fruit to eat and compost.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 23, 2010)

RPsmoke420 said:


> haha well I like simple! Actually I just picked up some Cannazyme the other day. Haven't used it before. Figure I'd give it a shot along with the hygrozyme. See what happens I guess.
> 
> I haven't played with any "spike" in PPM since leaving the chemical ferts. Learning as I go. Was just curious. I think it may allow more bud sites early on, but have never done a side by side. Like you, I use 600w and always choose to underfeed. I grow medicine, and quality is priority.
> 
> So are you sticking with the Biocanna line? Even with the synthetics? I have tried the new GO line of "vegan" nutes. Was happy with it outdoors, but worry about the source. I also feel you need to up your micronute additive when using it but haven't used it enough to say for sure. An article you posted awhile back on the review of the Biocanna line said Earthjuice was a close second as far as flavor and such? hmmm


Yes, I am sticking with Biocanna. The results have been mind blowing. I can deal with small amount of synthetic micronutes. Earth juice is great, but far from vegan. GO: i heard straight from the mouth of the owner that GO needs time to perfect. And it is even less organic than biocanna. As far as I've seen Canna makes the best nutes on the earth, both synthetic and vegan organic. Biocanna is the only vegan organic formula to be approved in Oregon.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 23, 2010)

akgrown said:


> I have a truly vegan recipe,
> 
> I get seaweed and kelp that washes up on the beach and compost it with organic fruits, then make tea from it. It is great stuff, no animal waste and, you dont have to buy anything except fruit to eat and compost.


SICK! I've been investigating kelp harvesting, and heard that I shouldn't use the stuff washed up, but harvest the live kelp from the water. Can you post your kelp preparation techniques? Thanks!


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## akgrown (Nov 23, 2010)

I do use the stuff that washes up but if it looks like its been there awhile i pass, I then soak it in fresh water to remove the salt buildups, then I throw it into the compost pile. Pretty simple, avoid kelp that is covered in flies as it probably has something dead inside, also use only the leafy parts, i dont take the bulbs or the stalks home. Get an airtight container though, it will stink your car up in a hurry.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 23, 2010)

akgrown said:


> I do use the stuff that washes up but if it looks like its been there awhile i pass, I then soak it in fresh water to remove the salt buildups, then I throw it into the compost pile. Pretty simple, avoid kelp that is covered in flies as it probably has something dead inside, also use only the leafy parts, i dont take the bulbs or the stalks home. Get an airtight container though, it will stink your car up in a hurry.


great advice here. I've heard from several sources to use the leafy parts and not the giant tubes that wash up on the shore. Good tips about flies too, that is why I was told to harvest it myself living.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 23, 2010)

Not bubble related but I wanted to give a link to this CBD thread I started.

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/386957-cbd-truth-told.html

Here is the intro:
"Today I want to to post about CBD. First is the basics to explain what CBD is and why it is important. Then some really killer insight from Sam the Skunkman about smoking pure THC and other pure compounds. After that we look at high CBD strains in a peer reviewed article about the effectiveness of CBD from the Society of Cannabis Clinicians."

Peace all


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## ebflow (Nov 24, 2010)

Awesome thread! Been following it, and fits hand in hand with bio-dynamic vegetable farming techniques we practice...except stuffing cow horns with manure but i bet you could do it with plants/vegan food waste and fermenting them in barrels in the ground brewing microbes etc....A whole new world has opened up to veganics! would like to know how they brew all these kelp extracts and beet sugars etc and plant proteins like the Natures Nectar nitrogen.....so we can start experimenting at home...thats the real future, using plants found in nature locally....


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## summitoker (Nov 30, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> My ganja smokes way better than kushmans. His ganja is way stronger.


When you say stronger, do you mean potency, or thickness of smoke, or flavor, or?

This is a great thread. Im getting ready to give your style a shot. All the ingrediants are gathered just waiting for some bubba cuts to pop roots!


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## Matt Rize (Nov 30, 2010)

summitoker said:


> When you say stronger, do you mean potency, or thickness of smoke, or flavor, or?
> 
> This is a great thread. Im getting ready to give your style a shot. All the ingrediants are gathered just waiting for some bubba cuts to pop roots!


My most recent crop, the Blackberry Kush, is ultra smooth/tasty, but peaks out around 16% THC. Blackberry is not a potent THC strain. I feed light and start flushing super early. Kushman on the other hand has been growing Stardawg, a chem dawg back cross that peaks around 23% THC. As you are aware, Chem dawg can take tons of fertz, just about any fertz of any quality, and do well. But the smoke is harsh, and the high is unfocused. He is very aware of yield, I could give a damn about yield, as taste of smoke is my no. 1 priority. 

When kushman told me my blackberry kush is better than his blackberry kush, I figured out it was because I feed about half as strong as he does. Then I watched him garden and found out he was cheating his ass off (animal products and synthetic flower boosts), while calling his flowers vegan, there were in fact not. So he tried my herb, asked why it was so much better than his, and I told him I wasn't following his system, but doing my own truly vegan system, now he grows truly vegan in a manner similar to myself. He understands that using any animal or synthetics is not allowed, but we both had the issue of using up our old nutes... 

We argue over the system constantly, and each do our own thing. I like to use bulk organic food ingredients like molasses and sucanat, while he likes to use HN Honey ES. I like to foliar feed, he doesn't. I intentionally only grow three lbs at a time... he on the other hand lol. I like to use a fulvic acid, he doesn't. I use white widow and great white and myco madness, he uses myco madness and azospirillium. He uses Biolink for vegan N source, I use Natures Nectar N, also vegan. He uses cocowet, I use wet betty. I use hygrozme and cannazyme, he uses hygrozyme and one of the other zymes.


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## RPsmoke420 (Nov 30, 2010)

Any thoughts on Bio-Genesis? They make Mineral Matrix. They have a couple other products available as well. 

Do you use a micronutrient supplement?

*edit*-Bio-Genesis is made by Green Air Products I believe.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 30, 2010)

RPsmoke420 said:


> Any thoughts on Bio-Genesis? They make Mineral Matrix. They have a couple other products available as well.
> 
> Do you use a micronutrient supplement?
> 
> *edit*-Bio-Genesis is made by Green Air Products I believe.


We both use the mineral matrix. its is one of the best vegan products available. It gets used in small amounts, literally a few drops per gallon, throughout the cycle for advanced growth. I also use for foliar feeding if I have micronute issues. The big thing to know is that the matrix has no Ca. I also use cal/mag, pretty much all the time, because I mix RO and small boy water. In the winter I need the extra Ca/Mg, in the summer our water gets so shitty that I don't have to use any Ca/Mg, and I use less small boy and more RO. I try to keep my starting water at around 100 ppm. I found that trying to adjust your nutes to seasonal water changes is way harder than standardizing your water pH and ppm.


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## upthearsenal (Nov 30, 2010)

Harvesting my little plant that has only been given vegan additives/supplements tomorrow!


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## Matt Rize (Nov 30, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> Harvesting my little plant that has only been given vegan additives/supplements tomorrow!
> 
> View attachment 1297338


Dude, that looks ultra tasty. Just for the newbs I would like to point out the difference between his plants and other organic plants.
If you look closely you will see a few things that are important. First, the advanced cholorosis (yellowing) is not just yellowing, but the green fades to reveal many secondary pigments, and up's plant looks beautiful.

Second is the lack of "greenhouse" burn, or burnt tips of the fan leaves, that many have thought is a goal of growing. He obviously did not overfeed, and his plants will smoke great because of that.

Third: is the part we can't see, the taste and affect, which we will wait for upthea's report


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## upthearsenal (Nov 30, 2010)

Yeah man, thanks. I really like how this girl turned out. Besides the nutrition in the soil, I only fed twice with a SRP and kelp meal tea, with an added microbe inoculate.

I've had a few samples and it's very tasty but obviously I have to wait till it's properly cut and cured... thanks again, Matt, for bringing your philosophies and techniques to light! 

My system gone vegan was very simple, yet still needs some tweaking. 

...up the vegan organics!!!


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## RPsmoke420 (Nov 30, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> We both use the mineral matrix. its is one of the best vegan products available. It gets used in small amounts, literally a few drops per gallon, throughout the cycle for advanced growth. I also use for foliar feeding if I have micronute issues. The big thing to know is that the matrix has no Ca. I also use cal/mag, pretty much all the time, because I mix RO and small boy water. In the winter I need the extra Ca/Mg, in the summer our water gets so shitty that I don't have to use any Ca/Mg, and I use less small boy and more RO. I try to keep my starting water at around 100 ppm. I found that trying to adjust your nutes to seasonal water changes is way harder than standardizing your water pH and ppm.


Man, that's good to know. Was hoping the Mineral Matrix would have me covered. Too bad. I'll make sure to keep some CaMg around too.


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## summitoker (Dec 2, 2010)

Any thoughts on this stuff? its 2 differant bottles that are used together.....
http://www.soilsecrets.com/nectar.htm
http://www.soilsecrets.com/ambrosia.htm


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## ebflow (Dec 5, 2010)

Does anyone know why Natures Nectar Nitrogen says not to use air pumps and stones? was wondering if i should add after brewing up some microbe teas? any ideas, notice it foams pretty crazy with the air stone. Been doing some research on Humbolt's natural bloom... and contacted them for the spec sheets on it...it is plant(kelp) and rock(rock phoshate) based...nothing else. 0-10-0 and 10% calcium!...you can't beat that..using that for bloom...what does everybody else use for vegan phosphorous supplement? also what CaMG product should i use?(mostly for Mg)...blackberry kush sounds delicious.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 5, 2010)

summitoker said:


> Any thoughts on this stuff? its 2 differant bottles that are used together.....
> http://www.soilsecrets.com/nectar.htm
> http://www.soilsecrets.com/ambrosia.htm


very interesting products. they use some terms that may be BS



> Not a compost tea or an extract of compost. Nectar is a concentrated broth of Enzymes, Naturally occurring bacteria in stasis, Mycorrhizal spores and vegetative root tissues and a high level of Total Dissolved Solids derived from the digestion of three types of composts including Worm castings, bacterially dominated and fungally dominated, into a liquid. Much like how your digestive system will turn solid food stuff into a liquid that can pass across the membrane of the small intestine, we digest compost into a liquid that is the foundation of this product. No animal manures, city biosolids or yard wastes are used. All composts ingredients are tightly controlled for quality and specificity. Better then any compost tea, Nectar can be placed into a sealed bottle without losing significant diversity for many months, plus it&#8217;s a source of microbiology that&#8217;s impossible for Compost tea to achieve and yet stay stable. Using Michael&#8217;s exclusive Bacterial stasis and oxygen donor technology to keep this product fresh in the bottle, Nectar is the cutting edge liquid inoculant.





> Ambrosia TM: is my answer to the high salt and high pH liquid Humic acid products that are very popular in the industry. A natural source of Humus in a liquid that was not made using chemical base extraction, so it&#8217;s not toxic to the soils microbiology and will not harm the microbes in the product itself. Liquid materials move into the soil faster then the dry humus products such as Humates, Cultured humus in TerraPro etc. Liquids can also be used in spray equipment, injectors or hydroseeders.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 5, 2010)

ebflow said:


> Does anyone know why Natures Nectar Nitrogen says not to use air pumps and stones? was wondering if i should add after brewing up some microbe teas? any ideas, notice it foams pretty crazy with the air stone. Been doing some research on Humbolt's natural bloom... and contacted them for the spec sheets on it...it is plant(kelp) and rock(rock phoshate) based...nothing else. 0-10-0 and 10% calcium!...you can't beat that..using that for bloom...what does everybody else use for vegan phosphorous supplement? also what CaMG product should i use?(mostly for Mg)...blackberry kush sounds delicious.


If you want to add food to your tea, do it after brewing, right before feeding. Nature's nectar products do not need to bubble. Foam is not a bad thing. The calcium in HN 0-10-0 is from the rock phosphate. That is what I use, on top of Biocanna flores. I use calmag. I also would not be against some epsom salt for extra Mg.


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## YungMoolaBaby (Dec 8, 2010)

Are earthworm castings considered vegan? It just seems as though earthworm castings do exactly what they're supposed to do. *IE* earthworms are in soil to keep it healthy and full of usable nutrients.


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## upthearsenal (Dec 8, 2010)

YungMoolaBaby said:


> Are earthworm castings considered vegan? It just seems as though earthworm castings do exactly what they're supposed to do. *IE* earthworms are in soil to keep it healthy and full of usable nutrients.


Matt probably has a better answer, but if you know the source then they should be good. I feed my worms an all vegan diet, and personally, I would never deprive my soil of ewc!


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## Matt Rize (Dec 8, 2010)

YungMoolaBaby said:


> Are earthworm castings considered vegan? It just seems as though earthworm castings do exactly what they're supposed to do. *IE* earthworms are in soil to keep it healthy and full of usable nutrients.





upthearsenal said:


> Matt probably has a better answer, but if you know the source then they should be good. I feed my worms an all vegan diet, and personally, I would never deprive my soil of ewc!


I do not have the most strict definition of vegan. To me the way vegan applies to organic gardening means no products from chordates, or specifically the vertebrates, animals with backbones. That includes fish, bats, birds, & stock animals. Worms do not have backbones. If those worms were fed animal by-products I would pass, but finding all veggie EWC is easy. EWC is a great soil conditioner, don't forget it will make your soil a little heavier and should be balanced with perlite or another soil lightener.

So here is the thing. I'm not a vegan, BUT I smoke a ton of herb and hash, way more than the number of times I eat each day. So I like to take it to that level with my smoke. I noticed five years ago that my best herb in terms of overall affect and smoothness was grown using just kelp and molasses. So I've been slowly taking the guano out for years (everything else is easy to cut, but the guanos are the main phos (P) source for indoor organic gardeners). Others appear to be noticing the difference with vegan organics, over outdoor and indoor traditional organics.


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## ebflow (Dec 13, 2010)

Might be a little off the topic of the thread but... Do you use any super cropping /topping or FIM techniques with your grows? figured i would ask seeing that it is a very efficient technique that seems to be emphasized with veganics. also when brewing up microbe teas is all you brew. is a molasses myco and enzymes? and do you feed every time or just feed when needed? 
Earth worm casting are the way to go. I am vegan and only feed the worms scraps of what i eat.. and they provide me average of 40 pounds of casting in a month! But definitely don't wont to get to heavy on the mix(not much more than 20%). i add old used soil mixed in with the worms and food then they process through it, so it blends pretty well. not to mention the natural break down of the food is much like the way they get plants extracts, so the casting contain a very high concentrate of the fermenting plant mass and beneficial bacteria. a great source of all the minerals. Not to mention the worm tea also!

I think i gonna have to step it up a notch with veganics and go LED....I'am doing a pretty technical review for www.BlackdogLED.com LED's. could use some input. so check it out! 

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/392313-blackdog-led-review.html


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## Matt Rize (Dec 13, 2010)

ebflow said:


> Might be a little off the topic of the thread but... Do you use any super cropping /topping or FIM techniques with your grows? figured i would ask seeing that it is a very efficient technique that seems to be emphasized with veganics. also when brewing up microbe teas is all you brew. is a molasses myco and enzymes? and do you feed every time or just feed when needed?
> Earth worm casting are the way to go. I am vegan and only feed the worms scraps of what i eat.. and they provide me average of 40 pounds of casting in a month! But definitely don't wont to get to heavy on the mix(not much more than 20%). i add old used soil mixed in with the worms and food then they process through it, so it blends pretty well. not to mention the natural break down of the food is much like the way they get plants extracts, so the casting contain a very high concentrate of the fermenting plant mass and beneficial bacteria. a great source of all the minerals. Not to mention the worm tea also!
> 
> I think i gonna have to step it up a notch with veganics and go LED....I'am doing a pretty technical review for www.BlackdogLED.com LED's. could use some input. so check it out!
> ...


YES! I fim. I also supercrop and I lollipop as well. Training techniques like these depend on the variety you grow. Sativas get more work than indicas. I'll post more later today.


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## LANDRACELOVER (Dec 14, 2010)

Nice job Matt. I have used sacanant(SP) along with molasses. nice frost seems to have come out of it. understanding its just a different take on growing is something everyone should remember and this is your view point and experience with a product and all need to remember this also. I as an educator in a northern midwest state like hearing different experience's as we all learn different things and there is no way to test every new product that hits the shelves. I really am enjoying this thread and more than likely will do a run with biocanna now. I like learning and open minds solve things close minds will never advance beyond an x point. The one point I would like to add though is the genetic factor of the seeds grown. It all starts there period. Same name seeds DO NOT MEAN SAME GREAT GENETICS (sorry my own rant LOL) anyway will be following this thread and enjoying it


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## Matt Rize (Dec 14, 2010)

LANDRACELOVER said:


> Nice job Matt. I have used sacanant(SP) along with molasses. nice frost seems to have come out of it. understanding its just a different take on growing is something everyone should remember and this is your view point and experience with a product and all need to remember this also. I as an educator in a northern midwest state like hearing different experience's as we all learn different things and there is no way to test every new product that hits the shelves. I really am enjoying this thread and more than likely will do a run with biocanna now. I like learning and open minds solve things close minds will never advance beyond an x point. The one point I would like to add though is the genetic factor of the seeds grown. It all starts there period. Same name seeds DO NOT MEAN SAME GREAT GENETICS (sorry my own rant LOL) anyway will be following this thread and enjoying it


hey thanks for stopping by  Most of us out here in the western states grow from clones. BUT everything you said about seeds is true... It's all about the phenotype. Educator...? for OU?


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## LANDRACELOVER (Dec 14, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> hey thanks for stopping by  Most of us out here in the western states grow from clones. BUT everything you said about seeds is true... It's all about the phenotype. Educator...? for OU?


 Hey Matt, No an independent Educator in MI. I almost flew out there with a friend to go to OU the first year they opened lol. long story short thousands of hours of reading and raising little ones and I became knowledgeable enough to pass on and help others with there Meds. Almost all mine now are clones but started from seed two as far back as seven years. Just cant let go of a good thing sour diesel has lost nothing over the years. Again thanks for the read love learning new stuff


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## Matt Rize (Dec 15, 2010)

ebflow said:


> Might be a little off the topic of the thread but... Do you use any super cropping /topping or FIM techniques with your grows? figured i would ask seeing that it is a very efficient technique that seems to be emphasized with veganics.


Yes. Training techniques depend on variety. Sativas I like to FIM late, around 16 inches. Them train those branches out and around the tomato cages. Indica/kush get early FIM, if they can take the top without stunting, some indica varieties don't like topping. 

I give the main stem chiropractic treatments, meaning I twist between nodes until the inner hurd "pops". I do this more on sativa than indica. Indica/kush get it to, but less. It's really important IMO to have the knuckled main stems. Like when a bone breaks and heals, it's twice as strong after.

I lollipop big time. All varieties. I'm into easy trimming, and wet trimming, and not paying people to help me trim. I also like big buds grown close to the light source.



ebflow said:


> also when brewing up microbe teas is all you brew. is a molasses myco and enzymes? and do you feed every time or just feed when needed?


No. I use a food source (molasses) with a little humic acid, and yucca extract. Then I add the life source, right now I'm using Alaskan humisoil or Mayan microzyme.



ebflow said:


> Earth worm casting are the way to go. I am vegan and only feed the worms scraps of what i eat.. and they provide me average of 40 pounds of casting in a month! But definitely don't wont to get to heavy on the mix(not much more than 20%). i add old used soil mixed in with the worms and food then they process through it, so it blends pretty well. not to mention the natural break down of the food is much like the way they get plants extracts, so the casting contain a very high concentrate of the fermenting plant mass and beneficial bacteria. a great source of all the minerals. Not to mention the worm tea also!


Great stuff on worms. It's about time I start a bin. +rep


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## ebflow (Dec 15, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> Yes. Training techniques depend on variety. Sativas I like to FIM late, around 16 inches. Them train those branches out and around the tomato cages. Indica/kush get early FIM, if they can take the top without stunting, some indica varieties don't like topping.
> 
> Tomato cages! Nice, does that control the height or the sativa's?
> 
> ...


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## Matt Rize (Dec 15, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> Yes. Training techniques depend on variety. Sativas I like to FIM late, around 16 inches. Them train those branches out and around the tomato cages. Indica/kush get early FIM, if they can take the top without stunting, some indica varieties don't like topping.





ebflow said:


> Tomato cages! Nice, does that control the height or the sativa's?
> 
> I lollipop big time. All varieties. I'm into easy trimming, and wet trimming, and not paying people to help me trim. I also like big buds grown close to the light source.
> 
> Never heard of Lollipoping, Could you explain a bit more on it?


I like the tom cages for a couple reasons. 1) reuse-able (versus net screen) 2) bleach-able (bambu stakes don't like bleaching) 3) does not provide shelter for pests (like bambu). 

I find the 42" cages to be the perfect height for sativa. The size down is better for indica/afganica (real kushes = afganica). I try to spread out the budding sites, using twist-ties and the cage frame. You know that game. Horizontal training techniques for all nice buds, no suckers. 

Lollipopping: is when you remove the lower flower sites (nodes) but leave the leaves. There are many names for this. This focuses the energy on the upper budding sites. This is also known as culling the suckers.


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## Rayne (Dec 15, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> I do not have the most strict definition of vegan. To me the way vegan applies to organic gardening means no products from chordates, or specifically the vertebrates, animals with backbones. That includes fish, bats, birds, & stock animals. Worms do not have backbones. If those worms were fed animal by-products I would pass, but finding all veggie EWC is easy. EWC is a great soil conditioner, don't forget it will make your soil a little heavier and should be balanced with perlite or another soil lightener.
> 
> So here is the thing. I'm not a vegan, BUT I smoke a ton of herb and hash, way more than the number of times I eat each day. So I like to take it to that level with my smoke. I noticed five years ago that my best herb in terms of overall affect and smoothness was grown using just kelp and molasses. So I've been slowly taking the guano out for years (everything else is easy to cut, but the guanos are the main phos (P) source for indoor organic gardeners). Others appear to be noticing the difference with vegan organics, over outdoor and indoor traditional organics.


Wikipedia: Veganism
Wikipedia: Vegan Organic "Veganic" Gardening


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## Matt Rize (Dec 15, 2010)

Rayne said:


> Wikipedia: Veganism
> Wikipedia: Vegan Organic "Veganic" Gardening


lol rayne, you caught me. i put that part about the MMj community preferring veganics in the wiki definition.


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## Rayne (Dec 15, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> lol rayne, you caught me. i put that part about the MMj community preferring veganics in the wiki definition.


lol

Your statement has been edited.


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## Klo$etBreeder (Dec 19, 2010)

Matt thx for getting back to me. I had read your while thread that day being it's really the only thing I've found on veganics. This is something I'm really interested in. Tho I'm smaller scale now I plan to be running a good size op in the next few years. There's so little good info in regards to cannabis and veganics it's hard for someone in my shoes who's never even grown organically to just jump right in. 

Now the cal/mag supplement what do you recommend? 

Also I'm a beginner veganic grower but knowledgable chem grower and have been growing indoors and out for a few years. So based on this what would you suggest for a nute line up. Money aside. Running 600 watters and soon to be Co2


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## Matt Rize (Dec 19, 2010)

Klo$etBreeder said:


> Matt thx for getting back to me. I had read your while thread that day being it's really the only thing I've found on veganics. This is something I'm really interested in. Tho I'm smaller scale now I plan to be running a good size op in the next few years. There's so little good info in regards to cannabis and veganics it's hard for someone in my shoes who's never even grown organically to just jump right in.
> 
> Now the cal/mag supplement what do you recommend?
> 
> Also I'm a beginner veganic grower but knowledgable chem grower and have been growing indoors and out for a few years. So based on this what would you suggest for a nute line up. Money aside. Running 600 watters and soon to be Co2


Hey 600 watters and CO2, now that's my style, lol. 

I fully recommend Biocanna products. Their veg/flower formulas are the best "bottled" nutrients around, and far superior to the other vegan organic lines (general organics and biobizz). The bioboost is amazing too. 

Cal/Mag: I'm currently using separate Ca and Mg, products from cutting edge solutions (a crappy hydro company with a couple organic products). Cal/Mag products together are good too, but if they have Fe chelated with EDTA I say no way (ie CalMag+). The "+" stands for EDTA chelation. This is entirely counterproductive for organics, as there are many natural chealtes (citric acid, humic acid, ect).


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## Klo$etBreeder (Dec 20, 2010)

Ok cool I'll be sticking around this thred for sure. Tons of info in here I'll need along with the help lol it's back to the beginning almost. I get to learn to grow all over agian which I'm super excited for! I still have a small amount of advanced nutes left and they'll get me thru the next 2 months but I'm pop'n some sour kush as we speak and I want them to be veganic. So I have about a month to get the new line up. 

I'll deff be going with the biocanna line vega Flores boost, along with zyme and rhyzotonic. 

Now will the tarantula and piranha from advanced be ok? Should be organic I assume

Also I've read that perlite isn't the best for the food web will it make a huge difference I just bought a few bales of pro-mix and still have half of it. 

Thx for all the help I really appreciate it


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## Matt Rize (Dec 20, 2010)

Klo$etBreeder said:


> Ok cool I'll be sticking around this thred for sure. Tons of info in here I'll need along with the help lol it's back to the beginning almost. I get to learn to grow all over agian which I'm super excited for! I still have a small amount of advanced nutes left and they'll get me thru the next 2 months but I'm pop'n some sour kush as we speak and I want them to be veganic. So I have about a month to get the new line up.
> 
> I'll deff be going with the biocanna line vega Flores boost, along with zyme and rhyzotonic.
> 
> ...


Tarantula and Piranah are inoculants, and very similar to great white when combined. Overpriced (because of AN) but good stuff none the less. Consider a compost tea brew set up for the vegan run. That can replace expensive inoculants. 

Please ask away, veganics should be shared 

Opinions on perlite are mixed. I'm currently running BioTerra Plus with 10% grade 3 perlite. I like watering more often... and the perlite is a back-up plan to make sure you don't overwater. I suggest using higher grade perlite, bigger chunks and less dust. Its the dust that is bad to breathe and affects soil pH.


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## Klo$etBreeder (Dec 21, 2010)

Ok yea I got a ton of tarantula and piranha left, probably close to 200g of both I got a ton of it free with all my orders to advanced over the years and you don't use much at all. 

I have Xmas to take care if still and then the money i still have left after paying rent will go to buying the new line.

Now the teas do you have a good recipe? I've never made one a day in my life lol. This is all 100% new to me. I've done some research but like I said it's hard to find good info on veganics related to cannabis. 

So in my mind you have your base nutes like chem. Then your teas introduce your inoculants and are like boosters for the soil life. Really I can run the nutes just like the bottle says until I get the hang of everything right? Cuz I noticed you guys talking about adding specific NPK at certain times


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## Matt Rize (Dec 21, 2010)

Klo$etBreeder said:


> Ok yea I got a ton of tarantula and piranha left, probably close to 200g of both I got a ton of it free with all my orders to advanced over the years and you don't use much at all.
> 
> I have Xmas to take care if still and then the money i still have left after paying rent will go to buying the new line.
> 
> ...


Teas: the recipe depends on your goal. I aim to make inoculant teas, aka AACT active aeration compost tea. These do not contain plant food so the recipe is super simple. Water, compost, molasses, humic acid, then aerate for 12 to 24 hours, strain, dilute, feed. Some folks like to brew tea with plant food in it. I do not. We can get into if there is interest. I suspect the plant food may do harm to the overall tea biodiversity. 

The whole adding N or P or K thing is for advanced indoor gardens, which sounds like your style. The plants will tell you if they need more. I am trying to do this whole run with minimal supplements. 

I'm using Biocanna Vega/Flores/Bioboost with Canna cannazym and rhizotonic. Also using Thrive Alive organic version, wet betty, a few inoculant products (widow, myco, great white), humic acid, fulvic acid, and molasses.

I would follow the directions on the bottles. They are a good place to start. Remember that the dosages listed are always for reverse osmosis water so are generally a little high.


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## upthearsenal (Dec 24, 2010)

Hey Matt! What are you thoughts on hygrozyme, and when do you prefer to use it?

Is it basically just for healthier roots? I know it's full of enzymes, but I don't know much... if anyone else knows anything they can chime in as well..


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## Matt Rize (Dec 24, 2010)

upthearsenal said:


> Hey Matt! What are you thoughts on hygrozyme, and when do you prefer to use it?
> 
> Is it basically just for healthier roots? I know it's full of enzymes, but I don't know much... if anyone else knows anything they can chime in as well..


I like hygrozyme because it carries multiple certifications. But I do not like the labeling and secret formula. Hygrozyme is an enzyme, meaning it is not living. It is similar to draino... lol... but for organic gardeners. What hygrozyme does is dissolve any dead or mushy roots, lazy man's root prune but better. All of the -zyme products are similar in that they are bottled enzymes designed to clean roots. I've been hearing good things about multizyme, something similar to hygrozyme but more a little cheaper to use.

I think these products are mostly cellulase.


> Cellulase is an enzyme which breaks down cellulose to beta-glucose. It is produced mainly by symbiotic bacteria in the ruminating chambers of herbivores. At least two steps in cellulose degradation by microorganisms begin with the preparatory prehydrolytic first step involving an enzyme (C1) which swells and/or hydrates anhydroglucose chains. The second step uses hydrolytic enzymes (Cx) and beta glucosidase (cellobiase). Trichoderma reesei has an extensively studied cellulase enzyme complex. This complex converts crystalline, amorphous, and chemically derived celluloses quantitatively to glucose. Cellulase derived from Trichoderma longbrachiatum is comprised of an enzyme complex consisting of cellulase, a glucosidase, cellobiohydrolase and a glucanase. This complex converts cellulose to beta-dextrins and ultimately to D-glucose. Cellulase is used as a digestive aid, particularly in animals, and for the management of flatulence.


http://www.greatvistachemicals.com/biochemicals/cellulase.html


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## upthearsenal (Dec 24, 2010)

Haha yeah, when I searched the thread for hygrozyme as the keyword, I got you saying both that it was organic and "who knows what's in it", so I thought it might be kind of sketchy... I have no experience with any "-zyme" products, so maybe I'll give this a go.


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## elduece (Dec 25, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> ............
> Cal/Mag: I'm currently using separate Ca and Mg, products from cutting edge solutions (a crappy hydro company with a couple organic products). Cal/Mag products together are good too, but if they have Fe chelated with...........The "+" stands for EDTA chelation. This is entirely counterproductive for organics, as there are many natural chealtes (citric acid, humic acid, ect).


GO CaMg has a "+" on its label hence General Organics CaMg+. I thought the "+" means cation and calcium and magnesium are indeed cations, right? There's no mention of EDTA or chelation on its label.


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## Top5 (Dec 25, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> I agree wholeheartedly with you...much cheaper ways to do veganics, but for newbs and people who are super busy...excellent choice. Except on the hash thing I kinda disagree. There are two kinds of coughs: the "my lungs are glued together" cough, and the "irritants cough". Do you know what I'm talking about?
> 
> I have heard of people getting sick from animal ferts (I'm one of them, and this is why I'm so into veganics).


i agree my first grow is going to be veganics...i want the pure high instead of the chemicals, i too have gotten sick from poor weed.


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## Top5 (Dec 25, 2010)

but ive been in and out this forum and im looking for a guide/techniques of growing veganics like a full tutorial or list of things to do when to do it....any suggestions?


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## Matt Rize (Dec 26, 2010)

elduece said:


> GO CaMg has a "+" on its label hence General Organics CaMg+. I thought the "+" means cation and calcium and magnesium are indeed cations, right? There's no mention of EDTA or chelation on its label.


The plus does not refer to the cation status as far as I know. Botanicare cal/mag+: the plus is chelated Fe (EDTA).


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## Matt Rize (Dec 26, 2010)

Top5 said:


> but ive been in and out this forum and im looking for a guide/techniques of growing veganics like a full tutorial or list of things to do when to do it....any suggestions?


Kushman and my sister Ava Rize and writing that book. He's just put together his feed chart. But honestly we do not grow the same. We are both still fine tuning our systems. In my not so very humble opinion, I'm always a few steps ahead 

I'm convinced this is the only purchased inoculant that is needed:
http://www.bioag.com/images/VAM_Tech_LR.pdf 
or to order: http://www.bioag.com/oregonorderpage.html


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## Top5 (Dec 26, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> Kushman and my sister Ava Rize and writing that book. He's just put together his feed chart. But honestly we do not grow the same. We are both still fine tuning our systems. In my not so very humble opinion, I'm always a few steps ahead
> 
> I'm convinced this is the only purchased inoculant that is needed:
> http://www.bioag.com/images/VAM_Tech_LR.pdf
> or to order: http://www.bioag.com/oregonorderpage.html


anyway you could come up with a nice video tutorial or your special techniques, id love to see the whole snapping of the stem thing done right. i dont want to mess up anything.


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## collective gardener (Dec 26, 2010)

Matt,

We've spoken before regarding our dealings with Cali collectives, in particular prices paid by collectives for various medication. Have you found the collectives receptive to veganic medicine? Have they seen the advantage and been willing to compensate for the extra production costs of this type of growing?


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## Matt Rize (Dec 26, 2010)

Top5 said:


> anyway you could come up with a nice video tutorial or your special techniques, id love to see the whole snapping of the stem thing done right. i dont want to mess up anything.


oh man, we put a lot of time into documenting that properly for the movie. I'll make a home video this week of "kushman chiropracty".


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## Matt Rize (Dec 26, 2010)

collective gardener said:


> Matt,
> 
> We've spoken before regarding our dealings with Cali collectives, in particular prices paid by collectives for various medication. Have you found the collectives receptive to veganic medicine? Have they seen the advantage and been willing to compensate for the extra production costs of this type of growing?


Yes, and yes. BUT since that veganic medicine comes with kushman's name on it... makes it easier to get compensated. I can't say anything for certain about vending to dispensaries. Many of them are sketchy and unscrupulous. Its all about the relationship with the dispensary. I for one know that Organicann is out to make money, and don't care about things like organic and veganic. It really depends on the store and their market.


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## collective gardener (Dec 26, 2010)

Matt,

I really like the direction you're going. It will be interesting to see how many growers actually end up pure vegan. I have always believed that in this culture there is a niche for just about everything. I would like to know if you could quantify the quality increase going from traditional organic (guano and such) to veganic. Is it as drastic as going from chemical to organic? Based on your thread here, we will surely be running some test plants using your veganic techniques. It has taken us a long time to perfect our orgainic sources of micros and secondary nutrients. Typically we use Earthjuice Microblast for the micros, Botanicare Ca for calcium, and Botanicare Sweet Raw for magnesium and sulfur. What veganic techniques would you suggest to provide these nutrients? I can figure out the N-P-K easy enough.

Thank you very much for all your informative threads. And thank you to the forum for keeping the hate to a minimum.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 26, 2010)

collective gardener said:


> Matt,
> 
> I really like the direction you're going. It will be interesting to see how many growers actually end up pure vegan. I have always believed that in this culture there is a niche for just about everything. I would like to know if you could quantify the quality increase going from traditional organic (guano and such) to veganic. Is it as drastic as going from chemical to organic? Based on your thread here, we will surely be running some test plants using your veganic techniques. It has taken us a long time to perfect our orgainic sources of micros and secondary nutrients. Typically we use Earthjuice Microblast for the micros, Botanicare Ca for calcium, and Botanicare Sweet Raw for magnesium and sulfur. What veganic techniques would you suggest to provide these nutrients? I can figure out the N-P-K easy enough.
> 
> Thank you very much for all your informative threads. And thank you to the forum for keeping the hate to a minimum.


Hey thanks. There are many vegan organic growers already, but they think of it as fermented plant extracts. Jaykush over on ic organic soil forum has been doing this for years outside. WARNING! some of the mods are complete assholes on IC and ban you for daring to disagree, or calling them out for being money grubbing schemers who smoke 'tane. The entire site is designed to sell seeds and make money for gypsy nirvana. If you talk about kyle kushman, high times, california, oaksterdam, reeferman, or any other breeder (or entity) who doesn't pay gypsy then you will be banned. I digress...

I've been liking mineral maxtrix as a very low dose micro supplement, mostly for iron. Earth juice is one of the best overall nute companies IMHO, and their microblast is great. I think I'll be testing that soon with the vegan line. Ca and Mg are hardly micronutrients in ganja growing, and at times are needed in higher concentrations than Phos. Phos is historically misunderstood IMHO due to the likes of Ed, Jorge, and Mel.

I'll check out botanicare sweet raw ingredients, and get back to you on that. Stand alone Ca and Mg are nice IMO because they are needed in such high amounts. lol and I used epsom salts for about a decade with no issues


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## Top5 (Dec 26, 2010)

matt where is this movie ganna be sold at? or is it done yet?


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## Matt Rize (Dec 26, 2010)

Top5 said:


> matt where is this movie ganna be sold at? or is it done yet?


kushman is going to NY to finish the movie next month. should be released by summer.


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## Top5 (Dec 26, 2010)

Matt Rize said:


> kushman is going to NY to finish the movie next month. should be released by summer.


oh sweet! i cant wait! and im going to subscribe to your channel on YT so ill be looking forward to some of your videos


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## baldhead (Jan 2, 2011)

Correct me if I am wrong but aren't omri listed cottonseed meal, blood meal and bone meal sourced from conventional farms? What about omri alfalfa meal?

What synthetic minerals are Canna adding to BioCanna?

In my research I have found boron, manganese, zinc, copper and iron to be lacking in most off the shelf veganic fertilizer sources.


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## bobbypyn (Jan 2, 2011)

Howdy. I've read the HT article your buddy wrote about 50 times & I have questions... this system prides itself on it's uber-organic standards but it seems as though this level of exclusion in a rhizosphere would be detrimental to the stated goal of realizing genetic potential. animal waste is an intrinsic part of a supernaturally charged root zone. Properly composted manures harvested from renewable sources are indispensable to organic growing and represent a negligible threat from pathogens to those with compromised immunity. You'd be just as likely to contract some weird ass fungal infection from your mycorrhizae innoculants as from any responsibly sourced bat guano. Bacteria are also a crucial part of the soil-food web, so to act like veganics is a sterile condition is absurd. Hell, Kyle's Cherry Lopez shot is packed with fungus gnats! how Vegan is that? LOL! I'm not hatin', real talk; it's just that this whole thing smacks of sponsor propaganda. Bottom line: you can't improve on nature.

I have fungus gnats too, but i also have a pair of tweezers... especially for hi-rez photo shoots for international publication.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 2, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> I have fungus gnats too, but i also have a pair of tweezers... especially for hi-rez photo shoots for international publication.


lol at that picture. i would've not let that go through.


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## baldhead (Jan 2, 2011)

What about properly composted cow or horse manure that has been converted into worm castings, would that be kosher?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 2, 2011)

baldhead said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but aren't omri listed cottonseed meal, blood meal and bone meal sourced from conventional farms? What about omri alfalfa meal?


Not sure. 


baldhead said:


> What synthetic minerals are Canna adding to BioCanna?


OMRI didn't say, and Canna will not respond. 



baldhead said:


> In my research I have found boron, manganese, zinc, copper and iron to be lacking in most off the shelf veganic fertilizer sources.


That is very believable. It really depends on your media as well. Soil or soil-less ect.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 2, 2011)

baldhead said:


> What about properly composted cow or horse manure that has been converted into worm castings, would that be kosher?


not in my book. you do what you feel is okay. I stay clear from all poops... with the established idea that I do not think EWC is poop. I'm not saying poop doesn't work to grow bud. But I am saying since going all vegan my buds has never smoked better. And now traditional organics tastes harsh in comparison. And I just can't smoke chem.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 2, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> Howdy. I've read the HT article your buddy wrote about 50 times & I have questions... this system prides itself on it's uber-organic standards but it seems as though this level of exclusion in a rhizosphere would be detrimental to the stated goal of realizing genetic potential.


Greetings, I hope I can answer some questions, and we can have an intelligent and civil discussion. There are many natural ecosystems that lack chordate (backbone) mammals and their associated excrement. The exception is the grasslands, otherwise animals are a lesser part of the food web. Think about the woods. Each 10 acres has: one bear, two deer, 20ish squirrels, hundreds of trees, thousands of underbrush plants, millions of insects and worms (part veganics), and billions of microbes. I'm not saying the woods represent indoor growing, and remember this is officially "Kushman Indoor Veganics", outdoor... imvho traditional organics, or bio-dynamics is best. I know vegans who do it right, and they are the healthiest people I know. I am not a vegan another fyi. I am a fanatic local/organic consumer.



bobbypyn said:


> animal waste is an intrinsic part of a supernaturally charged root zone.


lol, supernatural root zone, I call it "the ghost weed". 



bobbypyn said:


> Properly composted manures harvested from renewable sources are indispensable to organic growing and represent a negligible threat from pathogens to those with compromised immunity. You'd be just as likely to contract some weird ass fungal infection from your mycorrhizae innoculants as from any responsibly sourced bat guano.


There are other environmental issues with bat guano. Properly composted is key, and there are thousands of noobs out there trying to do organics.



bobbypyn said:


> Bacteria are also a crucial part of the soil-food web, so to act like veganics is a sterile condition is absurd.


Bro, he adds so much friggin bacteria and tricho. it's no joke. Sterile and fecal coliform are two different issues, let's not confuse beneficial myco/bacteria/tricho with the organisms in poop.



bobbypyn said:


> Hell, Kyle's Cherry Lopez shot is packed with fungus gnats! how Vegan is that? LOL! I'm not hatin', real talk; it's just that this whole thing smacks of sponsor propaganda. Bottom line: you can't improve on nature.


lol at kyle with all of you. BUT all-plant composting and gardening is an ANCIENT practice dating back thousands of years in Asia. Them asian are pretty smart...



bobbypyn said:


> I have fungus gnats too, but i also have a pair of tweezers... especially for hi-rez photo shoots for international publication.


still lmao.


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## baldhead (Jan 3, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> not in my book. you do what you feel is okay. I stay clear from all poops... with the established idea that I do not think EWC is poop. I'm not saying poop doesn't work to grow bud. But I am saying since going all vegan my buds has never smoked better. And now traditional organics tastes harsh in comparison. And I just can't smoke chem.


I am composting the cow manure first then feeding it to worm bins. The end product is earth worm castings not cow manure.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 3, 2011)

baldhead said:


> I am composting the cow manure first then feeding it to worm bins. The end product is earth worm castings not cow manure.


sounds like splitting hairs to me. but i digress. Why not just feed your worms vegetable scraps? Anyone who regularly cooks should have enough veggie scraps to sustain vermicomposting. And then you can cut out the pre-composting step. Your worms would like it .


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## baldhead (Jan 3, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> sounds like splitting hairs to me. but i digress. Why not just feed your worms vegetable scraps? Anyone who regularly cooks should have enough veggie scraps to sustain vermicomposting. And then you can cut out the pre-composting step. Your worms would like it .


Do you make enough worm castings in-house to supply your grow and if you don't where do you get your castings from?


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## RPsmoke420 (Jan 3, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Kushman and my sister Ava Rize and writing that book. He's just put together his feed chart. But honestly we do not grow the same. We are both still fine tuning our systems. In my not so very humble opinion, I'm always a few steps ahead
> 
> I'm convinced this is the only purchased inoculant that is needed:
> http://www.bioag.com/images/VAM_Tech_LR.pdf
> or to order: http://www.bioag.com/oregonorderpage.html


So, your opinion is that the fungi is what's important? What about benficial bacteria? 

Nice find though, saving that and might look more into it. 



Matt Rize said:


> Hey thanks. There are many vegan organic growers already, but they think of it as fermented plant extracts. Jaykush over on ic organic soil forum has been doing this for years outside. WARNING! some of the mods are complete assholes on IC and ban you for daring to disagree, or calling them out for being money grubbing schemers who smoke 'tane. The entire site is designed to sell seeds and make money for gypsy nirvana. If you talk about kyle kushman, high times, california, oaksterdam, reeferman, or any other breeder (or entity) who doesn't pay gypsy then you will be banned. I digress...
> 
> I've been liking mineral maxtrix as a very low dose micro supplement, mostly for iron. Earth juice is one of the best overall nute companies IMHO, and their microblast is great. I think I'll be testing that soon with the vegan line. Ca and Mg are hardly micronutrients in ganja growing, and at times are needed in higher concentrations than Phos. Phos is historically misunderstood IMHO due to the likes of Ed, Jorge, and Mel.
> 
> I'll check out botanicare sweet raw ingredients, and get back to you on that. Stand alone Ca and Mg are nice IMO because they are needed in such high amounts. lol and I used epsom salts for about a decade with no issues


Mineral Matrix is no longer being sold here in CA. Not that you can't find it... just saying. 

I recently switched over to Earth Juice's microblast. No complaints. 
Some Nature's Nectar Cal and Mag would be great! Have said that to myself a couple times. Maybe some home brew for extra Ca? The epsom salt would up your Mg input. 



Matt Rize said:


> kushman is going to NY to finish the movie next month. should be released by summer.


Pretty stoked to see how it turns out



Matt Rize said:


> lol at that picture. i would've not let that go through.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 3, 2011)

baldhead said:


> Do you make enough worm castings in-house to supply your grow and if you don't where do you get your castings from?


making castings is so easy. i find i have to give some castings away cause my garden is smaller, and the worms don't stop. before i started I sourced from friends... the good thing about medical states is we get to share. you can literally dig up some worms, build a bin, add dirt, add veggies, and it will be all good. its not like brewing tea where you should follow directions and use it in a timely manner.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 3, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> So, your opinion is that the fungi is what's important? What about benficial bacteria? Nice find though, saving that and might look more into it.


Not exactly. Adding beneficial bacteria is what compost tea does. Myco fungi spores in tea DO NOT grow, they get eaten by the bacteria. Fungi spores need to contact roots to live/grow. So I suggest starting with myco*, then adding tea once roots (and the endomyco relationships) are established to increase the non-fungal soil life.


This last round I started with white widow (endo myco only). They loved it. This current round I used root web (endo/ecto/tricho like most inoculants). Im just trying to use up what I have so I can switch to bioag VAM (Vesicular Arbuscular Mycorrhizae).



RPsmoke420 said:


> Mineral Matrix is no longer being sold here in CA. Not that you can't find it... just saying.


Thanks, but is that OMRI or any other organic certification? I like earthjuice... and hear are the only line that when used will yield higher brix levels than biocanna.



RPsmoke420 said:


> Some Nature's Nectar Cal and Mag would be great! Have said that to myself a couple times. Maybe some home brew for extra Ca? The epsom salt would up your Mg input.


Epsom salt my old friend, has come back into the garden after a short experiment without. Matrix is okay... I burnt the shit out of my plants with it by trying to use it even though it has a lower Mg content. It's really good for iron and other micros that are needed in lower levels. I'm over the natures nectar... all they got is a Nitrogen formula for us. But I do use that, always needing more N in my organics.


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## RPsmoke420 (Jan 3, 2011)

> Matt Rize-]Not exactly. Adding beneficial bacteria is what compost tea does. Myco fungi spores in tea DO NOT grow, they get eaten by the bacteria. Fungi spores need to contact roots to live/grow. So I suggest starting with myco*, then adding tea once roots (and the endomyco relationships) are established to increase the non-fungal soil life.
> 
> This last round I started with white widow (endo myco only). They loved it. This current round I used root web (endo/ecto/tricho like most inoculants). Im just trying to use up what I have so I can switch to bioag VAM (Vesicular Arbuscular Mycorrhizae).


Makes sense. I guess I just worry about "getting enough" so I have usually wanted to "feed" the plants benficial bacteria at times without brewing a tea. 

Will try doing the fungi first, and holding off on the bacterias. 

And I was under the impression VAM is a type of endomycorrhizae ?? 

I have read some debating facts on Ecto's and their usefulness with cannabis. Any opinion there? Kinda like the fungal inoculate used on legumes, it will work on any legume (beans) to aid in the uptake of nitrogen, but will not work on other types of plants... ???

Sure would be nice to have Universities doing large scale studies on cannabis like they do on other crops:
http://pubsadmin.caes.uga.edu/files/pdf/C 990_1.PDF

Figure you might find that interesting. 




> Thanks, but is that OMRI or any other organic certification? I like earthjuice... and hear are the only line that when used will yield higher brix levels than biocanna.


I think it was a link you may have posted (?) that talked compared Earth Juice with Canna nutes. Was a great read, I'll see if I can find it. Anyway, it helped convince me to give it a try. But no, no organic certifications that I know of for Microblast. I believe their grow and bloom are both OMRI listed. Not sure. 

But how realistic, or reliable would you consider those certificates to be? Plenty of certification programs are less then honorable. Most are simply for profit businesses. I look at most "certificates" as a stamp saying you paid "someone". 



> Epsom salt my old friend, has come back into the garden after a short experiment without. Matrix is okay... I burnt the shit out of my plants with it by trying to use it even though it has a lower Mg content. It's really good for iron and other micros that are needed in lower levels. I'm over the natures nectar... all they got is a Nitrogen formula for us. But I do use that, always needing more N in my organics.


Right on man. Throw some on your roses, or peppers, or tomoatoes. Can work some wonders. I had a Mg deficiency I fought a few grows back. Read about people using it on peppers and roses. Have been doing it ever since. Got some of the bigger Bells I've ever grown.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 3, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> But how realistic, or reliable would you consider those certificates to be? Plenty of certification programs are less then honorable. Most are simply for profit businesses. I look at most "certificates" as a stamp saying you paid "someone".


I'll put it this way. When I buy products from stores I demand certifications... these effing nute companies are raking in the cash. Don't pretend earth juice corp is struggling, lol, they got money for tests. OMRI tests for synthetics, and without tests it is matter of taking the corporation's word... which isn't worth shit IMO. 

The certifications only go so far in terms of what organic means, but OMRI has more info on their site... which is how I found out that Biocanna is a bunch of damn liars. And they use small amounts of synthetic micros... but as RP is pointing out... so does earth juice because it makes life easier for the gardener. Does the Earth Juice micro list the chelating agent? citric acid possibly?

Now if I were buying my gardening products from some local farmers, who can't afford a certification, like most of the food at the farmer's markets... then I say forget certifications.


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## RPsmoke420 (Jan 3, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Now if I were buying my gardening products from some local farmers, who can't afford a certification, like most of the food at the farmer's markets... then I say forget certifications.


Good deal

Sometimes I forget these _are_ big ass companies. lol

As far as chelating agent goes... all I can find is this:


> Microblast contains naturally chelated liquid micronutrients which are more readily available and safer for plant uptake. These micronutrients are buffered in a blend of phyto acids, sugars & chelating agents. Contains magnesium, boron, cobalt, iron, manganese, molybdenum, zinc,and copper in an organic base.


and 



> Earth Juice Microblast
> kelp meal
> magnesium sulfate
> borax
> ...


^ quote pulled from article done by the 3 little birds on Earth Juice feeding. 

Due to the minerals... safe to say it is not organic and could not be OMRI listed. 

One website claimed "100% natural chelating agents" 

also just read... that Earth Juice Grow, Bloom, and Catalyst were OMRI listed. Then looks like they might of been removed. But every website still advertises all of their products OMRI. I think it's safe to say Microblast is not organic.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 4, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> also just read... that Earth Juice Grow, Bloom, and Catalyst were OMRI listed. Then looks like they might of been removed. But every website still advertises all of their products OMRI. I think it's safe to say Microblast is not organic.


natural chelating agents most likely humic, fulvic, and citric acids. but until they tell us, we do not know. I like the matrix for its listed chelating agents and OMRI listing. But I am thinking of switching to the EJ because its not banned in CA.


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## bobbypyn (Jan 4, 2011)

Hey Matt, thanks for addressing my points. In all fairness, those stalks are impressive as all hell & if this method produces superior results consistently, I'm all for it! Another question, if I may; you keep using a healthy forest floor as your baseline for optimum soil conditions, but I think we can aspire to way better conditions than that. That's what I mean by "supernatural" in reference to growing conditions. Ya'll are already boosting with myco & bacteria to achieve levels exceeding those commonly found in nature so it would stand to reason that by providing high nitrogen & phosphorus guanos, you're essentially doing the same thing. Not changing nature, just enhancing it so much as that is possible. We stoners didn't discover the benefits of guanos in horticulture; farmers have utilized bat shit in their fields since the advent of farming damn near. And honestly, I just don't like the idea of being dependent on corporate products to be able to produce top-shelf meds. I guess so long as all those companies are in business you're ok, but I don't know if that's always gonna be the case. Personally, I'd cry if they stopped making Hygrozyme... or I'd just use kikoman soy sauce, which is what that shit smells like.

yeah yeah, I know; kikoman is a corporation too... I 'm just sayin.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 4, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> Hey Matt, thanks for addressing my points. In all fairness, those stalks are impressive as all hell & if this method produces superior results consistently, I'm all for it! Another question, if I may; you keep using a healthy forest floor as your baseline for optimum soil conditions, but I think we can aspire to way better conditions than that. That's what I mean by "supernatural" in reference to growing conditions. Ya'll are already boosting with myco & bacteria to achieve levels exceeding those commonly found in nature so it would stand to reason that by providing high nitrogen & phosphorus guanos, you're essentially doing the same thing. Not changing nature, just enhancing it so much as that is possible. We stoners didn't discover the benefits of guanos in horticulture; farmers have utilized bat shit in their fields since the advent of farming damn near. And honestly, I just don't like the idea of being dependent on corporate products to be able to produce top-shelf meds. I guess so long as all those companies are in business you're ok, but I don't know if that's always gonna be the case. Personally, I'd cry if they stopped making Hygrozyme... or I'd just use kikoman soy sauce, which is what that shit smells like.


Lol bobbypyn, soy sauce. But serious for a second. I like using bottled nutes for my indoor. I can only promote using the Biocanna because the results, FOR ME, have been higher THC, better look, better smell, and much better smoke. That about seals the deal for me, from someone doing organics with guanos for a decade.


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## ebflow (Jan 4, 2011)

I wanna see some tech'd out watering techniques...., hows everyone doing it, top feed, bottom, flood? How much & when etc.... just another aspect of soil & veganics....also another things about the worm bins.....guess where all the under brush goes!!! Right inside for the worms...and back into the cycle...


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## Matt Rize (Jan 4, 2011)

ebflow said:


> I wanna see some tech'd out watering techniques...., hows everyone doing it, top feed, bottom, flood? How much & when etc.... just another aspect of soil & veganics....also another things about the worm bins.....guess where all the under brush goes!!! Right inside for the worms...and back into the cycle...


I feed pretty simple. I have a 30 gallon res, I let the water sit out 24 hours after going through a small boy. I give about 15 gallons to 24 3-gallon pots, every three days. I top feed with a sump pump/hose/wand combo. I start about 300 ppm, and work up to 700, then back down.

The worms love ganja scraps.


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## summitoker (Jan 5, 2011)

I am about ready to start a veganic grow but getting everything rounded up sure is tough, and expensive. 
I have the following stuff rounded up and would appreciate knowing what is missing, and if any of them should be cut from the program. I am also interested to know which ones go in the bubbler with the humus.

canna bio veg&flower
canna rhizotonic
canna cannazyme
canna bioboost
thrive alive
earth ambrosia/nectar
mycomaddness
ancient forest humus
Hum-boldt humic acid
mineral matrix
general organics cal/mag
and a bottle of organic blackstrap molasses
they are growing in sunshine pro mix#4 (the new mix with myco in it)

I still need to order some natures nectar N and also some kind of fulvic.... anything else?


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## ebflow (Jan 5, 2011)

I would recommend Bio ag Ful-Power, that stuff kicks ass, i am even considering getting their Food grade fulvic for human consumption, plants get better nutrition than us!! LOL... are the canna rhizotonic &
canna cannazyme organic based? I would recommend mixing down the sunshine pro #4 with peat of coco, has way to much tiny bits of perlite....was not to impressed...but it works.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 6, 2011)

summitoker said:


> I am about ready to start a veganic grow but getting everything rounded up sure is tough, and expensive.
> I have the following stuff rounded up and would appreciate knowing what is missing, and if any of them should be cut from the program. I am also interested to know which ones go in the bubbler with the humus.
> 
> canna bio veg&flower
> ...


That's about all I could imagine. Remember to start easy, and supplements won't really be needed until after 12/12.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 6, 2011)

ebflow said:


> I would recommend Bio ag Ful-Power, that stuff kicks ass, i am even considering getting their Food grade fulvic for human consumption, plants get better nutrition than us!! LOL... are the canna rhizotonic &
> canna cannazyme organic based? I would recommend mixing down the sunshine pro #4 with peat of coco, has way to much tiny bits of perlite....was not to impressed...but it works.


The rhizo and cannazym are not organic, but they are plant derived. The organic versions do not make it to the US yet, but are available in Europe.


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## RPsmoke420 (Jan 6, 2011)

How about Botanicare's huvega for Mg and and Calplex for Ca? OMRI listed I believe. Just a thought. Calplex uses mined Gypsum (permitted by OMRI) and huvega uses Magnesium Sulfate (synthetic Epsom Salts and also OMRI listed). I believe huvega would also privide a some fulvic acids too. 

Better then CalMg+.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 6, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> How about Botanicare's huvega for Mg and and Calplex for Ca? OMRI listed I believe. Just a thought. Calplex uses mined Gypsum (permitted by OMRI) and huvega uses Magnesium Sulfate (synthetic Epsom Salts and also OMRI listed). I believe huvega would also privide a some fulvic acids too.
> 
> Better then CalMg+.


Hey, that is what I am currently using. I really like the magnesium sulfate in liquid form... and huvega used to have fulvic acid on the label (until that became illegal in CA), it's made for foliaring but is also great in the res.


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## ebflow (Jan 7, 2011)

(some other topics to dive into..)
How about Veg Time, duration, Size-(indica, sativas)before switch to 12/12... 4weeks+,-? and is 3 gallon pots the biggest you use? what shape are we looking at before flower, Christmas tree, Four main stalks and topped & fimmed, or 4-8+ colas on a even level, stripping under brush ect. I think maybe we should elaborate a little more on the structure and size and shape of plants for optimal nutrient and light intake also in-depth training techniques (kushman chiropracty, when to fim, when to top etc. What is you personnel opinion on the average yield per plant with Veganic techniques(depends on stain but lets say average)? (under a 600w). Because all this has to do with how well our medicine turns out, it is a key variable in quality and yield of veganics.


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## baldhead (Jan 7, 2011)

I'd guess 1/2 - 1 ounce per gallon of soil-less media.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 7, 2011)

ebflow said:


> (some other topics to dive into..)
> How about Veg Time, duration, Size-(indica, sativas)before switch to 12/12... 4weeks+,-? and is 3 gallon pots the biggest you use? what shape are we looking at before flower, Christmas tree, Four main stalks and topped & fimmed, or 4-8+ colas on a even level, stripping under brush ect. I think maybe we should elaborate a little more on the structure and size and shape of plants for optimal nutrient and light intake also in-depth training techniques (kushman chiropracty, when to fim, when to top etc. What is you personnel opinion on the average yield per plant with Veganic techniques(depends on stain but lets say average)? (under a 600w). Because all this has to do with how well our medicine turns out, it is a key variable in quality and yield of veganics.


There is so much to say about training. And there are so many factors that will affect what you can/should do. When I grow Kushes and Indicas I do much less training than when I run sativa. 

My garden is 600's with a low ceiling, I run 3 and 5 gallon pots max. Kushman runs 1000s and uses 10 to 15 gallon pots. He grows giant bushes, about 12 stems per plant. I grow smaller bushes about 8 stems per plant. We both remove the lower nodes (lollipop). We both FIM, usually early. 

It's really hard to talk about yield per plant. Kushman has pulled 500g plants in 25 gallon pots, remember this is all indoors. He gets about 1.5/thouy. I get about 1.5 per 1200, and use less CO2 and way less food. Veganics isn't about yield. We have both seen yields decrease and quality increase since going vegan organic.


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## ebflow (Jan 8, 2011)

Awesome thanks for the reply! How long do you veg? to about what height, before switching them over? Would imagine it takes a little longer from the LST techniques. Definitely agree with you, Veganics is not about yield its about quality...but if you think about it that is still alot of medicine per plant for personnel use.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 8, 2011)

ebflow said:


> Awesome thanks for the reply! How long do you veg? to about what height, before switching them over? Would imagine it takes a little longer from the LST techniques. Definitely agree with you, Veganics is not about yield its about quality...but if you think about it that is still alot of medicine per plant for personnel use.


Veg depends on variety. A few weeks usually. Sativas stretch after flowering is initiated, 12/12. Indica and ksuh do not. The lst does set back veg a few days, but I do that chiro three times usually. Sorry for short reply, net is down, effing cell phone buttons.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 9, 2011)

whats up professor,

i was going to buy some of that D.E. you suggested for gnats. But i also saw that neem oil will also work. Now the reason i bring up neem is because it kills off other bugs, just like DE, but prevents mold and mildew. I have also read on RIU somewhere that neem oil is systemic and if i apply it to the soil, i wont have to spray it. My question to you is, Can something i feed into the soil really combat an enviormental problem such as high humidity, which cause mold/mildew?? 
and btw, i dont have mildew or mold either... just wondering as a preventative measure


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## woodsmaneh! (Jan 9, 2011)

Love NEEM


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## Matt Rize (Jan 9, 2011)

Neem is my favorite of all hort oils. I spray neem weekly in veg and about two weeks into flower


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## sharpshoota (Jan 9, 2011)

so applying it in the soil will build the plants immunity to the mildew, mold, and pest attacks over time, since its systematic?? kind of like mediciene for plants? or is spraying neem the more effective way to use it?

no wonder why i have always heard neem, neem, neem, neem, lol


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## Matt Rize (Jan 10, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> so applying it in the soil will build the plants immunity to the mildew, mold, and pest attacks over time, since its systematic?? kind of like mediciene for plants? or is spraying neem the more effective way to use it?
> 
> no wonder why i have always heard neem, neem, neem, neem, lol


I have not used neem meal, but ideally yes, the plant wpuld uptake the neem, making it systemic. For me, spraying on the tops and bottoms of the leafs is important for powdery mildew.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 10, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> so applying it in the soil will build the plants immunity to the mildew, mold, and pest attacks over time, since its systematic?? kind of like mediciene for plants? or is spraying neem the more effective way to use it?


Neem is also medicinal for people, and if you go to the beauty section in hippy grocery stores you will find neem in toothpaste and skin beauty products. I use cold pressed neem, it is very raw. Azamax is a derivative of neem that is supposedly better, but I don't like it. It is not medicinal for people, but actually a nerve toxin that can be absorbed through the skin (also eyes & mucus membranes). My older veteran consults told me it gives them numbness in their extremities, and anywhere the azadirachtin directly contacted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azadirachtin

I can't tell you what is more effective (spray versus meal), but a combination of the two would be best in theory.


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## woodsmaneh! (Jan 10, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> so applying it in the soil will build the plants immunity to the mildew, mold, and pest attacks over time, since its systematic?? kind of like mediciene for plants? or is spraying neem the more effective way to use it?
> 
> no wonder why i have always heard neem, neem, neem, neem, lol


I have used neem for 15 years and have found it very effective at discouraging bad bugs. Most bugs would rather die than eat neem. Neem is used heavily in Inda for just about everything. Neem is systemic and is absorbed by the plant cells when sprayed on the leaves. This will protect for about 3 weeks. You can use neem oil as a soil drench to help prevent bugs.

Neem Oil is not is a knock down killer, neem oil acts on the reproductive organs and they can't breed. My friend wrote this last month and it is very informative. He turned me on to neem 15 years ago.

Hope you don't mind me posting this here Matt.

*[FONT=&quot]http://urbangardenmagazine.com/2010/11/neem-oil/[/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]Natures Plant Protector[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]Bill Sutherland from [/FONT]**[FONT=&quot]Growing Edge Technologies[/FONT]**[FONT=&quot] discusses neem oil and how it can form an important part of your indoor garden pest control program.[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]WHAT IS NEEM OIL?[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]




[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Neem oil is a natural product derived from the seeds of the neem tree (_Azadirachta indica). _The neem tree is native to tropical and semi-tropical regions of South Asia but also grows in the Middle East and some parts of Africa. Most of the widespread cultivation and use of neem is in India, where it has been used for over two thousand years as a medicinal treatment for a plethora of ailments and disorders. The neem tree is an evergreen, which grows to around 60 ft (18 m) and produces white aromatic flowers followed by a small fruit that looks much like a large olive. Inside the fruit lies the payload; one large seed from which the oil is extracted by either cold pressing or solvent extraction. A by-product of neem oil extraction is a solid dried product called neem cake, which can be used as an organic fertilizer as well as a good method of controlling soil-dwelling pests. Here we will focus on the properties, uses and advantages of neem oil when used as a natural pest control agent for your homegrown fruits and flowers.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please note: Neem oil products are not currently registered for use as a pesticide in Canada.[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]What does neem oil do?[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]This may sound disappointing, but it needs to be said: neem is not an insecticide that kills on contact, and it has a low instant knock down effect. However, it is still very effective! Unlike other chemical insecticides, neem oil gets into an insects body after the ingestion of neem coated plant material and gets to work within a few hours. The predominant active component in neem oil is called azadirachtin, and once in a pests body it directly affects the hormonal system, more so than the digestive or nervous system. The way in which azadirachtin targets the hormonal system means that insects are far less likely to develop resistance in future generations. As well as azadirachtin, other liminoid compounds present in natural neem oil (nimbin, salanin, gedunin, azadirone, melandriol and more) play a significant collaborative role in deterring feeding and reducing pest populations.[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]Biological Effects of Neem Oil on Insects[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]Historical use and recent research studies show that a broad range of phytophagous (plant eating) pest insects are affected and can be controlled by neem oil, these include:[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Orthoptera: grasshoppers, katydids, crickets etc.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Coleoptera: wide range of beetles/weevils[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hemiptera: leafhoppers, aphids, psyllids & some scale insects[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Lepidoptera: cutworms, borers & caterpillars[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thysanoptera: thrips[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Diptera: Sciarid fly, fruit fly, buffalo/blow & march fly[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Heteroptera: sucking bugs  Green veggie bug, spotted fruit bug etc.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Others: nematodes, snails, and also some fungi and pathogenic viruses[/FONT]
 *[FONT=&quot]1. Insect Growth Regulation[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]Neem oil is unique in nature since it works on juvenile hormones. The insect larva feeds and when it grows, it sheds its old skin and continues growing. This molting phenomenon, also know as _ecdysis,_ is predominantly governed by the enzyme _ecdysone. _When the ingested neem, or more specifically azadirachtin, enters into the body of larva, the activity of ecdysone is suppressed. This causes molting failure and results in the larva not developing to the next life stage, and ultimately dying. If only a small amount of neem-coated foliage is ingested, and the concentration of azadirachtin is insufficient to cause molting failure, the larva will manage to enter a short-lived prepupal stage where it will die. In some instances, where the concentration of azadirachtin is still less, the adult emerging from the pupa will be malformed and sterile, without any capacity for reproduction.[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]2. Feeding Deterrent[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]One of most important properties of neem oil is feeding deterrence. Most insects are permanently hungry during their larval stages, particularly when they are mobile on the leaf surface. An insects maxillary gland is responsible for initiating feeding. When these glands give a signal, peristalsis in the alimentary canal is increased, which makes the larva feel hungry, and makes it start eating. When a leaf is treated with neem oil, the presence of the liminoids azadirachtin, salanin and melandriol produces an anti-peristaltic wave in an insects alimentary canal, producing something similar to a vomiting sensation combined with a reduced ability to swallow. Because of this sensation, an insect will avoid feeding on neem-treated leaf surfaces.[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]3. Oviposition Deterrent[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]Another way in which neem oil reduces pests is by not allowing the females to deposit eggs. This property is known as oviposition deterrence, and quickly thwarts the pest population growth. Interestingly, studies by Knapp & Kashenge (Insect Sci. Applic.2003) on spider mites, and Singh & Singh (Phytoparasitica, 199 on fruit flies have shown that natural neem oil formulations are more effective as oviposition deterrents and insect mortality than azadirachtin concentrates alone. Results from Knapps & Kashenges study showed that azadirachtin does not seem to play a major role in the control of spider mites. Although, azadirachtin is an important component of neem oil, the other less studied ingredients seem to have a positive synergistic effect when it comes to effecting the behavior, effectiveness and mortality of plant pests.[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]Neem Oils Effect on Non-Target Species and Beneficial Insects[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]One of the problems with the use of chemical pesticides has been their impact on non-target species, particularly when used outdoors. Often they have proved harmful to other beneficial species present in the ecosystem. Neem oil products have proved to be remarkably benign to insects such as adult bees and butterflies that pollinate crops and trees, ladybugs that consume aphids, and wasps that act as parasites on various crop pests. As mentioned above, neem oil has to be ingested to be effective. Those insects that feed on plant tissues, therefore, easily succumb. However natural enemies that feed only on other insects, and bees and butterflies that feed on nectar rarely come in contact with significant concentrations of neem oil to cause themselves harm.[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]Neem Oils Other Benefits as a Foliar Spray[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]Beside its insecticidal and nematicidal properties, neem oil is also a promising agent for the control of viral and fungal plant diseases. Neem oil in combination with paraffin oil has been shown to greatly reduce disease incidences of the yellow vein mosaic virus of okra and legumes, and leaf curl of chili, all of which can cause enormous losses. Neem oil has also been shown to reduce transmission of the tobacco mosaic virus in greenhouse vegetable crops of pepper, cucumber and tomato.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Neem oil has been demonstrated to suppress fungal activity. Fungi are constantly evolving enemies of growers and some can reach epidemic proportions. Neem oil has been shown to protect seeds against fungal diseases while in storage, and be beneficial as a preventative spray for fungal leaf diseases such as powdery and downy mildew.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Neem oil also contains some key nutrients that make it a good foliar fertilizer. A typical good quality neem oil product found in your local grow store will contain the following plant nutrients:[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Total Nitrogen 1.20% by mass[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Phosphorus as P 0.07% by mass[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Potassium as K 0.01% by mass[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Magnesium as Mg 0.03% by mass[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Copper as Cu 10 ppm[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Magnesium, as Mn 0.40 ppm[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Zinc as Zn 20.00 ppm[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Iron content 14.00 ppm[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]So, not only will regular spraying of neem oil onto your plant foliage control pests, it will also help prevent diseases and act as a foliage fertilizer! Amazing stuff.[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]How to Use Natural Cold-Pressed Neem Oil:[/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]Foliar Spraying[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]Like most of the vegetable oils, natural cold-pressed Neem oil is non-soluble in water and has to be made soluble with suitable emulsifiers before spraying. Some commonly available emulsifiers that can be used are liquid soaps, eco-friendly detergents, surfactants, wetting agents, soap nut powder, and many other organic emulsifiers.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Collect together your equipment.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To make 10 liters of spray-able neem, pour 1 liter of water into a container, add 1015 ml of liquid soap, or a suitable emulsifier, and agitate well until the soap/emulsifiers completely dissolve.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To this solution add 50 ml of neem oil and agitate well until a pale yellowish white emulsion is formed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Add this prepared emulsion to 9 liters of water in a bucket and stir thoroughly. The neem solution is now ready for spraying.[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Spraying should be done within 8 hours of mixing, using a suitable sprayer. This solution can be used as a foliar spray on crops, and also can be sprayed on the surface of growing media for effective action against root pests.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is recommended to repeat the spraying 5 times at intervals of 7 to 10 days. Spraying should be undertaken during periods of low light intensity; outdoors or in greenhouses this should be in the early morning or late in the evening. If you grow under lights, raise them high and consider turning a few off to reduce light intensity before spraying.[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]Soil Drench[/FONT]*


[FONT=&quot]To make 10 liters of drench-able neem. Add 1 liter of water to a container. Add 2030 ml of liquid soap, or suitable emulsifier, and agitate well until the soap/emulsifiers completely dissolve.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To this solution add 250350 ml of neem oil and agitate well until a pale yellowish white emulsion is formed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Add this prepared emulsion to 9 liters of water in a bucket and stir thoroughly. The neem solution is now ready to pour onto the growing medium. Apply enough for a small amount of run-off to occur.[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Please Note: Drenching potting soil with neem will adversely affect the beneficial biology of the rhizosphere. If you need to drench the root zone with neem, a follow up application with a good quality actively aerated compost tea will help to re-inoculate the beneficial bacteria, fungi and protozoa.[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]Neem Oils Effect on Plants[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]Neem oil not only coats the plant foliage after spraying, it is actually absorbed into the leaf material and can be transported around the plant systemically. Neems liminoid compounds (mainly azadirachtin) can be taken up by the roots after root zone applications, thereby reaching leaf and stem material throughout the whole plant. This reinforces the anti-feeding deterrent properties or neem oil, which makes the whole plant rather unappealing to invading pests.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Due to this persistence in the plant, neem oil products should not be used on plants that are approaching maturity. As a general rule, avoid spraying or soil drenching neem oil on plants that have five weeks left before harvest. As mentioned above, neem products have been used topically and ingested for medicinal use by humans for thousands of years and are completely non-toxic. However, neem has a very bitter taste that can, if used too late in a plants life cycle, be passed into the developing consumable produce.[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]Summary of the Advantages of Neem Oil[/FONT]*


[FONT=&quot]Broad spectrum of activity[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No known insecticide resistance mechanisms[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Compatible with many other insecticides and fungicides[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]New mode of action with possible multiple sites of attack[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Low use rates[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Compatible with other biological control agents for Integrated Pest Management programs.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Not persistent in the environment[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Minimal impact on non-target organisms[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Formulation flexibility[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Application flexibility  can be sprayed or drenched[/FONT]


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## woodsmaneh! (Jan 10, 2011)

Here's the scoop on Azamax also good stuff made from neem oil.

AzaMax&#8482;
*Botanical Insecticide, Miticide, and Nematicide*

AzaMax is a natural product with a broad spectrum of pest control and broad plant applications. AzaMax is made from special Azadirachtin Technical extracted using patented extraction technology from Neem, a tree known for it&#8217;s innumerable benefits. AzaMax contains Azadirachtin A&B as active ingredients and more than 100 limonoids from it&#8217;s special technology. The special feature of AzaMax is that it does not use hard chemical solvents and uses food grade formulation ingredients. AzaMax is licensed in all 50 states.
AzaMax is an antifeedant and insect growth regulator and controls pests through starvation and growth disruption. AzaMax effectively controls spider mites, thrips, fungus gnats, aphids, whiteflies, leaf miners, worms, beetles, leafhoppers, scales, mealy bugs, nematodes and other soil borne pests. Best of all, AzaMax can be applied up to the time or day of harvest. The product is exempted from residue tolerance, thus there is no harmful residue on veggies, fruits, herbs and flowers etc. Truly, AzaMax is a product of Nature in tune with Technology.

It's OMRI Listed.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 10, 2011)

i saw the azamax but i went with the dynagro 100% neem oil. ill be applying it both foliar and thru the soil.

I was telling you about ph issues earlier, NO MAS. 
that BioTerraPlus is good stuff.

Also i have one nutrient solution mix sitting in a 5 gal bucket with an airstone. It sat out for a couple days. it has the great white, some rhizo, bioveg, molasses. Is this considered a AACT tea now, since its aerated? or whats a good veganic AACT reciepe?


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## sharpshoota (Jan 10, 2011)

i remeber hearing no just any liquid soap will do, what kind of liquid soap should i use with the neem?

and thanks for all the info on neem. prevention is the key!!


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## woodsmaneh! (Jan 10, 2011)

The soap is used as a dispersant so make sure it's *dish soap*, a good one you can see through. Just a few drops is fine. To truly get the power of neem you need to do all your plants. If you clone, try to spray 1 or 2 days ahead of time, this protects the clones in two ways, bug deterrent and covers the leaf with a thin coating that helps keep in moisture. It is also good for your plants health.

My humble apologies Matt for jacking this part of your thread.


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## BCcannabis (Jan 10, 2011)

Hey Matt,
Thanks for the write you have lots of good information, i am about halfway thorugh the thread. On my last grow i used general organics with very tastey results, how do you feel about this product line?
For my next grow i might try some different nutes and make some teas as well.
+rep


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## Matt Rize (Jan 10, 2011)

woodsmaneh! said:


> The soap is used as a dispersant so make sure it's *dish soap*, a good one you can see through. Just a few drops is fine. To truly get the power of neem you need to do all your plants. If you clone, try to spray 1 or 2 days ahead of time, this protects the clones in two ways, bug deterrent and covers the leaf with a thin coating that helps keep in moisture. It is also good for your plants health.
> 
> My humble apologies Matt for jacking this part of your thread.


Hey sall good man. I don't like to use soap and prefer actual horticulture surfactants. ie cocowet, wet betty, or just yucca juice from the health store.


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## Jharris (Jan 10, 2011)

What medium are you using for your veganic grow since BTP is no longer carried in the US?


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## sharpshoota (Jan 10, 2011)

is earth juice catalyst a good surfactant to use for neem oil application, and would i use this with my seaplex foliar feeding as well??


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## Matt Rize (Jan 10, 2011)

Jharris said:


> What medium are you using for your veganic grow since BTP is no longer carried in the US?


I ordered a palette of bioterra plus. I'm planing on reusing it, and amending it until the aggregates structure breaks down. Here is an example of a huge peat aggregate:











But that isn't a fair answer. Kushman is planning on using coconot. I'm not going to suggest that product as I found it sucks pH wise, structurally, CEC ect. 

I used to mix 1 part FoxFarm Ocean Forest with 3 parts Happy Frog and a scoop of perlite. That worked forever. Then I switched to Bioterra Plus, which is a different world. After I run out of Bioterra plus I'll be going back that direction. Possibly without the perlite and with some coco. But right now I am using BioTerra Plus with a little grade 3 perlite.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 10, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> is earth juice catalyst a good surfactant to use for neem oil application, and would i use this with my seaplex foliar feeding as well??


Earth Juice Catalyst is not a surfactant. It is a metabolism aid (catalyst), and helps plants grow fast. 
I like to spray either neem or nutrients (the seaplex in your case). Sprayed neem today, the one of the babies had a little PM spot.


> Earth Juice Catalyst is a premium organic nutrient additive that encourages compact branching, stimulates optimal fruiting sites, and triggers early yields. Contains enzymes, hormones, vitamins, amino acids, nutrients and surfactants to complete your fertilization program. Catalyst conditions soils and hydroponic solutions for better nutrient availability. Best to use in conjunction with other NPK fertilizers. Mix 3 tbsp. per gallon of water. OMRI Listed for use in organic production.
> 
> Ingredients: Oat bran, kelp, wheat malt, molasses, and yeast.


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## upthearsenal (Jan 11, 2011)

So the btp still isn't found in the US? I htought it was gonna be available this month


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## Matt Rize (Jan 11, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> So the btp still isn't found in the US? I htought it was gonna be available this month


That's how it's looking. Locally still unavailable. ANYONE OUT THERE FINDING BioTerra Plus?


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## sharpshoota (Jan 11, 2011)

im in texas, they have pallets of BTP here. go to texashydroponics.com


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## sharpshoota (Jan 11, 2011)

hey matt whats a good veganic compost tea receipe. one that doesnt have guano, or worm castings. I searched on google but all that came up was this G.H florablend



> FloraBlend Vegan Compost Tea
> 
> Vegan Formula - 100% plant and mineral based. FloraBlend is a compost tea that is fermented from a select blend of plant materials plus seaweed and rock powders. This highly soluble organic solution increases and promotes healthy root structures, builds the plants immune system and provides carbon building blocks for plant processes responsible for color and flavor of fruits and vegetables. FloraBlend contains no animal derived ingredients.
> 
> ...


EDIT: Ingredients: Alfalfa meal, brewers yeast, cottonseed meal, potassium sulfate, rock phosphate, sea kelp, soybean meal.


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## Jharris (Jan 11, 2011)

Is it better to transfer multiple times depending on the size of the plant? Cups,4*4, then 3 gallons? Is it better for watering/feeding. I thought less transfers the better! If you have deficiencies but it's not time to water do you foliar feed? Is the bio vega a weak nutrient should there be a supplement?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 11, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> hey matt whats a good veganic compost tea receipe. one that doesnt have guano, or worm castings. I searched on google but all that came up was this G.H florablend
> EDIT: Ingredients: Alfalfa meal, brewers yeast, cottonseed meal, potassium sulfate, rock phosphate, sea kelp, soybean meal.


Hey, thanks for that post about texashydroponics.com and bioterra plus

I like to use my own compost, from vegetables. It's really easy to make, just some old potting soil and veggie scraps. Vermicompost is good if the worms were fed vegetables, and can easily be made at home. Mayan microzyme from Humboldt Nutes is interesting, a couple species of bacteria that are not normally found in mixed inoculants. 

I have to point out that when I brew tea all I use is compost, molasses, and yucca extract. I do not add meals and rocks. I use bottled nutes (biocanna mostly) for nutrition, and teas for inoculations. They do not get mixed, but fed separately. 

If you are going to be brewing your own nutes, then that is something different than brewing AACT or ACT (acitve aeration compost tea). FPE (fermented plant extracts) is the side of brewing that releases nutrients from plants fermenting, aka making your own nutes. Spanishfly (here on RIU) has a good thread on DIY fermented plant extracts using Russian comfrey.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 11, 2011)

Jharris said:


> Is it better to transfer multiple times depending on the size of the plant? Cups,4*4, then 3 gallons? Is it better for watering/feeding. I thought less transfers the better! If you have deficiencies but it's not time to water do you foliar feed? Is the bio vega a weak nutrient should there be a supplement?


I prefer more transplants. I know how and when to do it without damage, or even stunting of any kind. Auto-flower varieties obviously are easier to run with less transplants.

Foliar feeding for deficiencies is crucial, especially the immobile elements. I foliar feed whenever I have time, up to 4 weeks into flower (depending on length of flower).

biovega is good, may need more N, but shouldn't. This of course depends on your media, and how root bound you run.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 11, 2011)

alright so i think i am on the right track, just not sure which bucket some supplements and zymes would go in...

So right now have the aereated bucket with nutrition (all bio series from canna) and supplemental nutes in one , and another aerated bucket in the other stuff like great white, molasses, humega (humic acid), 

i have hygrozyme, seaplex, cannazyme, rhizo. as well, which bucket would they go?? 

also which bucket would be best for humbolt honey es? Im not using it yet, unless its not a bad idea, just curious.

damn i ask so many questions i might as well have you come over and grow my bud haha


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## Matt Rize (Jan 11, 2011)

Please keep the questions coming.

Bottles nutrients do not need bubbling. Biovega goes bad quickly and should be fed right after adding to water.
Seaplex is a bottled nute, does not need bubbling. Just mix and feed (fertigate).
Rhizo as well, ready to use.
The bucket with nutes is just for mixing with water, feed all vegan organic nutes right away after mixing. They rot quickly.

-zymes do not get bubbled ever, they are not nutrients or living. "Enzymes are catalysts. Most are proteins." http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/E/Enzymes.html

I have some humboldt honey, but am just testing it. I prefer to use organic molasses, from the bulk section at the market. 

Compost teas is just that. Compost + water +sugar (molasses, or humboldt honey). This gets bubbled to dislodge the microbes living on the compost, not to grow them so much. . 

Mixing great white/molasses/humic (or myco madness and molasses because myco mad has humic in it):
This is just a theory. I am not sure it does anything beneficial. I add these for about 5 minutes before adding nutes, then water.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 11, 2011)

oooo. well glad i asked cause i was about to let those zymes sit and aerate for a day or so thanks!!

I dont have a compost pile going soo  i guess i can still do water and molasses without the compost haha
and i forgot to mention, the biovega smells so good, just like chocolate!! haha seriously though

You should get your own book out on veganics, i have read 3 books (cervantes,rosenthal,green) twice each,, but i still ask you questions and your still answering em, cant thank you enough appreciate it bro!!


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## sharpshoota (Jan 11, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Mayan microzyme from Humboldt Nutes is interesting, a couple species of bacteria that are not normally found in mixed inoculants.


i have cannzyme, hygrozyme, and great white right now, will the mayan zyme really bring something more to the table?

EDIT: just relaying what my hydro shop says online about mayan zyme: they say to aerate it for a few days???



> STEP 1: FERMENTATION
> Dilute 2 fluid ounces of Mayan MicroZyme CONCENTRATE per gallon of NON-CHLORINATED water. Add 5 Tablespoons of molasses, sugar or complex carbohydrates to mixture for every 2 ounces of concentrate. Aerate/agitate for 3 to 7 days in a bucket, compost tea brewer, or reservoir. For shorter activation time, maintain water temperature at 80 degrees.


also i thought water holds more oxygen at lower temps, and 80 degress isnt very low at all, i thought a higher DO meant more life in the water?? also i thought thats a temperature that bad water pathogens start to build up. i remeber having these types of issues in dwc setup a while back.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 11, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> I dont have a compost pile going soo  i guess i can still do water and molasses without the compost haha
> and i forgot to mention, the biovega smells so good, just like chocolate!! haha seriously though
> 
> You should get your own book out on veganics, i have read 3 books (cervantes,rosenthal,green) twice each,, but i still ask you questions and your still answering em, cant thank you enough appreciate it bro!!


agreed, biocanna smells sexy. I am working on my book right now. The working title is *Advanced Hash Techniques and the Cannassuer Lifestyle*, a two parter if you will. A few chapters from it have been pre-published on my blog and elsewhere. 
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/393435-trichome-matt-rize.html
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/386957-cbd-truth-told.html
https://www.rollitup.org/organics/378460-soil-less-organics-professor-matt.html
https://www.rollitup.org/organics/378568-citric-acid-cannabis-horticulture-professor.html
Kyle Kushman and my twin sister Ava Rize, who wrote that 420 HT article about veganics, are writing the Indoor Veganics book right now. I have my own section, and am editing the entire thing.

Thank you for the kind words.


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## Jharris (Jan 12, 2011)

Do you foliar feed early on (seedling stage) 4 weeks out? I'm assuming u read the plant and feed it what it needs, but that early on what's usually a good foliar recipe? The bio boost is later on right? Thanks for ur replies.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 12, 2011)

I foliar spray with cold processed seaweed and kelp. it is 100% organic, and 100% veganic as well (correct me if im wrong matt)
It also helps during transplants, when your plant's roots are stressed, as well as heat stress from lighting, and it is loaded with vitamins, minerals, and growth hormones. it also helps plants absorb nutrients more effectively when applied through soil as well.

there are tons of seaweed products out there, all are great too.
just my .2 cents


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## Jharris (Jan 12, 2011)

Thanks will mist it with thrive alive!


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## Matt Rize (Jan 12, 2011)

Jharris said:


> Do you foliar feed early on (seedling stage) 4 weeks out? I'm assuming u read the plant and feed it what it needs, but that early on what's usually a good foliar recipe? The bio boost is later on right? Thanks for ur replies.


great advice from sharpshoota. I also foliar with thrive alive, sparingly as it contains Fe. Bioboost is so damn expensive that I only use it for weeks 1 to 4 of flower.


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## bobbypyn (Jan 12, 2011)

lol... yeah, TexasHydroponics is the shit. their showroom is a Toys R Us!! the actual name of the store is Texas Hydroponics & Organics cuz they're hip to it. Just don't go in there actin foolish; talkin bout this shit; Tom WILL throw your ass outta there. Seen it happen. Yes; it's funny.


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## summitoker (Jan 13, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> I dont have a compost pile going soo  i guess i can still do water and molasses without the compost haha


No the compost is the key element. Thats where the life comes from. You can buy something like alaska forest humus or compost in a bag.


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## summitoker (Jan 13, 2011)

I have always used a silicon supplement in the medium and as a foliar cause it seems to keep the ladies happy and tough. Is this still acceptable or needed with veganics?


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## sharpshoota (Jan 13, 2011)

summitoker said:


> No the compost is the key element. Thats where the life comes from. You can buy something like alaska forest humus or compost in a bag.


Yeah i wasnt gonna actually do that, the molasses and water are what feed the life. Thanks for posting that tho, buying a compost was completely out of my mind for some reason, heres a good mix i found.



> Vermicrop Organics VermiBlend Premium Soil Amendment was created for the organic gardener. VermiBlend Premium Soil Amendment has a unique blend of earthworm castings, compost, fossilized kelp, humus, rock minerals, and mycorrhizae to provide ample amounts of micro nutrients, trace minerals, and beneficial microbes


How do i get everything going?, I have never made my own compost tea...


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## Matt Rize (Jan 13, 2011)

summitoker said:


> I have always used a silicon supplement in the medium and as a foliar cause it seems to keep the ladies happy and tough. Is this still acceptable or needed with veganics?


Tell you what, kushman still uses a silica supplement. I'm not so sure about it.... probably not OMRI.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 13, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> Yeah i wasnt gonna actually do that, the molasses and water are what feed the life. Thanks for posting that tho, buying a compost was completely out of my mind for some reason, heres a good mix i found.
> How do i get everything going?, I have never made my own compost tea...


Check out this simple step=by=step for compost tea
http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/airwaste/wm/recycle/tea/tea1.htm


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## sharpshoota (Jan 13, 2011)

what about Diatomaceous Earth for silicon?? it is derived from silica rock... and its OMRI certified i believe.

and thanks for the link


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## klassifyme (Jan 13, 2011)

hey matt i recently made a batch of super soil and was wondering if you think im missing something
soil;composted forest products,canadian peat moss, composted chicken manure, rice hulls, horticultural sand, perlite, bat guano, kelp meal, worm castings
i added lime, perlite, bone meal,feather meal,alfalfameal,humic and fulvic, epsom salt
ben microbes and 444 micorrhizal blend


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## Matt Rize (Jan 13, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> what about Diatomaceous Earth for silicon?? it is derived from silica rock... and its OMRI certified i believe.
> 
> and thanks for the link


I'm all about the DE, writing an article about it right now. I like to mix some in, and alsoi use it on top as part of the IPPM (integrated pest/pathogen management). RIZE UP!


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## Matt Rize (Jan 13, 2011)

klassifyme said:


> hey matt i recently made a batch of super soil and was wondering if you think im missing something
> soil;composted forest products,canadian peat moss, composted chicken manure, rice hulls, horticultural sand, perlite, bat guano, kelp meal, worm castings
> i added lime, perlite, bone meal,feather meal,alfalfameal,humic and fulvic, epsom salt
> ben microbes and 444 micorrhizal blend


Looks great. Only thing I can pickout is the ricehulls possibly rotting and/or sprouting because they were not carbonized (charred). 
Is it for indoor? If so, make sure there is enough perlite (or pumice) to balance the heavyier manure.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 13, 2011)

Hey great post Jay Roller. 

I work with Steep Hill Lab here in California. Blackberry Kush was the 10th most frequently tested variety this year. My vegan organic Blackberry Kush was tops for THC. Results are results, everything else is theory.

Then there is JayKush on ICshwag... you know about him? He is killing it with FPE (fermented plant extracts). 

We can argue about the purpose of trichomes elsewhere...

Don't get me started on folks selling "clone only" varieties as seeds... you better be using males 

POST EDIT: THIS WAS In RESPONSE TO HIS ANTI-VEGANIC POST, WHICH HE VOLUNTARILY REMOVED... probably because I asked if he was breeding with males or herm...


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## sharpshoota (Jan 13, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I'm all about the DE, writing an article about it right now. I like to mix some in, and alsoi use it on top as part of the IPPM (integrated pest/pathogen management). RIZE UP!


you gonna post that article on DE in your blog, im kind of curious to see if it actually provides the same benefits as a silicon supplement


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## Matt Rize (Jan 13, 2011)

It does not provide the same benefits of a silicon supplement. DE breaks down pretty slow. But over time it provides a little. DE is really to stop soil borne pests.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 13, 2011)

Alphakronik said:


> I'm not here to argue. Unless you post Gas Chemography results, the point is null and void. Science uses numbers and repeatable results, neither of which Kushman or yourself have put up for proof that his ideas or theories on veganics are of sound scientific fact. If you want to talk science, that is fine, but we need to prove ourselves by showing our research and facts, not estimations and generalized possibilities.


Bro, my numbers have been posted on the thread already. Here we go again.
This was my second attempt at veganics and first Blackberry Kush. I tested in the top 5 of all Blackberry samples (including chem and organics), and Blackberry Kush was the tenth most tested variety by this lab. The hash was 45 to 160 microns, aka everything, and isn't comparable due to low sample size. But here's the data anyways.

Blackberry Kush has never tested over 16% at this lab. Just to set the scene.
*blackberry kush flower %15.44 THC %0.23CBD %0.05CBN
blackberry kush full melt%52.64THC %01.27CBD %0.33CBN*

And beginning your post with "kushman is wrong" is argumentative. Don't act surprised when you come on my thread and start with that kind of post title.

Plus you didn't answer: are you breeding with males?

We are working with Grinspoon and Steep Hill to prove our buds have higher THC. We entered some Blue Dream in last years medical cup. It was grown by a first timer following kushman veganics. It tested at 24% THC, four highest of ALL cup samples. Pictured below is my VEGAN ORGANIC blackberry kush.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 13, 2011)

oh ok, it was just an idea. and yeah i originally got it because you suggested it for pest control. it seems like the safest way to control pests in the soil...


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## Matt Rize (Jan 13, 2011)

From Kushman to Alfa:


> Plants are plants, and animals are animals. Neither can be both. Regardless of their origins of evolution. To the matter of nutrition, plants also cannot distinguish between organic or chemical. I'm not saying the use of one or the other won't have an effect on the outcome. None the less, neither plant nor animal biology can tell the difference between a vitamin, mineral, or nutrient that is organic, or chemically derived. How is it that people grow hydroponically without any trace of animal products? It's because their nutritional requirements are being met chemically. And everything is built from chemicals, or the elements their derived from.
> 
> Therefore if you provide the proper amounts and ratios of nutrients to the plant, it doesn't matter one bit to the physical system processing them.
> 
> ...


POST EDIT: wtf alfakronik? I even got you a response from Kushman, and you pull your posts? Is this because I asked about your herm genetics?


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## klassifyme (Jan 13, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Looks great. Only thing I can pickout is the ricehulls possibly rotting and/or sprouting because they were not carbonized (charred).
> Is it for indoor? If so, make sure there is enough perlite (or pumice) to balance the heavyier manure.


thanx for the help ,my first indoor crop, organic soils vs hydro


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## sharpshoota (Jan 13, 2011)

Cant get any more pure than veganics!! thanks for all the good work guys, keep it coming!!


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## Matt Rize (Jan 14, 2011)

Alphakronik said:


> I'm not here to argue.


Well then let's talk about your genetics. The White in particular. You seem to be breeding with local genetics, and using Subcool's and Godfather Dawg's genetics (you know who I am talking about?). Do tell about the white please. Kushman also works with the real The White and The Black.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 14, 2011)

Alphakronik said:


> Wow. You are really reaching there. Firstly, if you did any sort of search, you'd know that Subby was the person who got me into breeding, that our male came from F1 seeds we popped (he gave them to us to continue a Spacequeen project (probably because he moved onto querkle). As for the white, I havent a clue whos it is. Came to me from the east coast, and per request, we are making seeds with it. Its funny to me when people think they have rights to a cutting actually. All the more reason to make it available to the public.


Firstly, I did 2 seconds of research on you, and have no idea who you or your bank or school are. I worked for Peace in Medicine. Now Oaksterdam... ever heard of them? lol. Just messing with ya. I have no idea about "the white" and no one ever claimed any rights to anything. I truly am curious. iirc: It came from Chemdawg father. Along with "the black". They are chemdawg phenos I believe. Was looking for confirmation, but got defensive BS... whatever. I don't really give two shits about hybrid seeds. I used to grow DJ Short Blueberry and it's hybrids from seed. BUT NOW world class clone-only cuts of every kind are plentiful. Sour D, Jack H, Headband, Chemdawg(s), Green Crack, Blackberry Kush, OG kush(s), Romulan, Grape Ape, Strawberry Cough ect ect, the list goes on.

AND UNLESS YOU ARE BREEDING WITH MALES I HAVE ZERO INTEREST IN YOUR WORK... so please do tell, male pollen or herm?


POST EDIT: THANKS TO ALL FOR POSTING, THIS THREAD HAS TAKEN A GREAT DIRECTION. 

UNFORTUNATELY THIS ALFACRONIC GUY TRIED TO STEP TO THE RIZE AND GOT SQUASHED. THANK YOU ALL AGAIN FOR THE SUPPORT. KEEP THE ?S COMING!


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## klassifyme (Jan 14, 2011)

^^^^ i don't understand why people are fucking up the genepool with hermanized excuse me , "feminised", seeds.
Matt , thanx for all; the good info and no bullshit. peace


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## Matt Rize (Jan 14, 2011)

klassifyme said:


> ^^^^ i don't understand why people are fucking up the genepool with hermanized excuse me , "feminised", seeds.
> Matt , thanx for all; the good info and no bullshit. peace


I will tell you why. Folks are fake ass breeders. They want to make money off of the hard work of others real breeding. Wanna-be breeders take the best clone only cuts they can find and herm them out hence seeds... that's not breeding. FAIL, just like Soma and Arjan and the other herm breeders. That is why I only grew real genetics when I was doing seeds, mostly DJ Short Blueberry. Right now I have some TGA seeds because Subcool is a real breeder.


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## Alphakronik (Jan 14, 2011)

I have never made a herm, fem, or reversed seed in my life. Sir, I deleted my postings from your thread due to the fact that you cannot hold an intelligent conversation pertaining to your post to save your life. You obviously do not care about the science of cannabis growing, and therefor I will not waste my time going tit-for-tat with you.

All of our gear is open air pollenation using males. It's unfortunate that you allow assumption to make an ass out of you.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 14, 2011)

Alphakronik said:


> All of our gear is open air pollenation using males. It's unfortunate that you allow assumption to make an ass out of you.


Hey good to know, wish you would've said so from the get-go...
It's funny you rag on me for not sticking to my own thread (kinda my MO just fyi, have you seen my IC posts as Thomkal Vwalaa?).
It's even funnier that you rag on me for my lack of science... have you read any of my other threads or visited my blog, lol, it's about as nerdy as it gets. I even re-posted some LAB DATA for you, but that must have not counted. You talk a good game, but hard science (beyond theory, raw data) it seems is proving that VEGAN ORGANICS is the way to go.


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## klassifyme (Jan 14, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I will tell you why. Folks are fake ass breeders. They want to make money off of the hard work of others real breeding. Wanna-be breeders take the best clone only cuts they can find and herm them out hence seeds... that's not breeding. FAIL, just like Soma and Arjan and the other herm breeders. That is why I only grew real genetics when I was doing seeds, mostly DJ Short Blueberry. Right now I have some TGA seeds because Subcool is a real breeder.


thats funny i plan on getting some subcool gear when i get my tax return, hopfefully theviod, vortex,pandoras box, and maybe querkle, what subcool strains are you working with?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 14, 2011)

klassifyme said:


> thats funny i plan on getting some subcool gear when i get my tax return, hopfefully theviod, vortex,pandoras box, and maybe querkle, what subcool strains are you working with?


 I like the description on the jillybean. Who doesn't need some uplift?


> JILLYBEAN
> Orange Velvet X Romulan X Cindy99
> 
>  Sativa/Indica 60/40
> ...


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## sharpshoota (Jan 14, 2011)

Alphakronik said:


> I have never made a herm, fem, or reversed seed in my life. Sir, I deleted my postings from your thread due to the fact that you cannot hold an intelligent conversation pertaining to your post to save your life. You obviously do not care about the science of cannabis growing, and therefor I will not waste my time going tit-for-tat with you.
> 
> All of our gear is open air pollenation using males. It's unfortunate that you allow assumption to make an ass out of you.


wow. this guy is really full of himself. some people just cant admit when their wrong.


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## klassifyme (Jan 14, 2011)

nice, i wish they haad a package deal with all the subcool strains, i look at the descriptions and cant really decide they all sound great


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## RPsmoke420 (Jan 14, 2011)

Damn, missed some fun looks like. 

Agree 100%. I am not all too stoked on fem seeds. Beyond the hermie traits... I think the male plays a crucial role in the genetics. "selfing" is not complete, IMO. Maybe you could make that a blog entry? Would be a good read I think. I can think of plenty of people that could benefit from reading something like that lol

And TGA genetics are top man. Love it. Working with Chernobyl right now. But I digress...

happy Friday!


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## woodsmaneh! (Jan 14, 2011)

I tried DJ Shorts New True Blue Berry 2 1/2 years ago and found 4 different phenol's and they were all very low yield, very disappointing. So I moved to Dr Atomic and now with Sannies. Which BB would you recommend?

I think the whole Dutch Seed thing is just a big cash grab and people like Melia and JC (the book guy) are all about the money now, they have lost their way.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 14, 2011)

woodsmaneh! said:


> I tried DJ Shorts New True Blue Berry 2 1/2 years ago and found 4 different phenol's and they were all very low yield, very disappointing. So I moved to Dr Atomic and now with Sannies. Which BB would you recommend?
> 
> I think the whole Dutch Seed thing is just a big cash grab and people like Melia and JC (the book guy) are all about the money now, they have lost their way.


I grew DJ's blueberry for many years, it was always amazing. Emery hooked it up back in the day if you went to the store in vancouver and dropped some loot. I looked for the more indica phenos, the stankiest. I tried the True Blueberry as well, and found a bunch of low yielding phenos. One was incredibly psychoactive, and was the only pheno I've ever smoked that made me unable to work... way too trippy. It yielded almost nothing, and the calyxes were crazy looking blue/sparse. 

The big blue from BCSC was quality, and yields sick. Grown from seed it made dripping nugs. One huge crown and a kick ass second tier crown. 6 ounces off of a 250 watt MH my first real indoor grow  way back when. 

Dr. Atomic's blueberryxNL was way more NL than blueberry IMO (at the time). From seed it was solid. From cuts it was slow to veg, and slow to root. But was the most frosty herb I've ever seen or grown. I may have picked a mutant because it never stopped flowering... always frosty calyxes no matter how big the plants or light cycle. 

Grape Krush was weak, low germination pisses me off.

What are your goals?
Headstash or Money? 
Is stank a problem? (I moved to CA with my cuts. I tried to do a round of Blueberry and the smell was out of control. Bike cops smelled the garden and I had a brief freak out. No more making cuts for the dispensary... lol sorry but gotta watch the plant count.)
What's your style? Indica vs hybrd vs Sativa?


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## upthearsenal (Jan 14, 2011)

Alphakronik said:


> I have never made a herm, fem, or reversed seed in my life. Sir, I deleted my postings from your thread due to the fact that you cannot hold an intelligent conversation pertaining to your post to save your life. You obviously do not care about the science of cannabis growing, and therefor I will not waste my time going tit-for-tat with you.
> 
> All of our gear is open air pollenation using males. It's unfortunate that you allow assumption to make an ass out of you.


The joys of seeing an ass make an ass of himself. If you're going to use the presumption that Matt can't hold an intelligent conversation, than you are just embarrassing yourself. Throughout this whole thread people have come in to bash Matt and veganics, yet he always stays diplomatic and always keeps the discussion civil, and intelligent. 

It's also funny that this lame-o had nothing to say about the numbers you posted.. but I digress, it's quite apparent what happened. 

Let me also add that several pages back I posted my girl which I grew veganically, she was the third seed I had popped from the pack, and was easily the most stinky, and best tasting out off all the other ones I grew. That is obviously empirical, but I feel like the odor/taste increased greatly when I removed the poop.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 14, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> I feel like the odor/taste increased greatly when I removed the poop.


it seems so simple doesnt it haha

veganics all the way, no turning back!!!


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## woodsmaneh! (Jan 14, 2011)

*
What are your goals? I'm a med grower and am looking of good CBD.
Headstash or Money? Not money
Is stank a problem? (I moved to CA with my cuts. I tried to do a round of Blueberry and the smell was out of control. Bike cops smelled the garden and I had a brief freak out. No more making cuts for the dispensary... lol sorry but gotta watch the plant count.) Not an issue.
What's your style? Indica vs hybrd vs Sativa?Indica, indica/sativa no more than 60/40

I grow for some med clients and myself a card holder. I don't get paid for it, not a big deal or cost to me.
*


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## Matt Rize (Jan 14, 2011)

woodsmaneh! said:


> *
> What are your goals? I'm a med grower and am looking of good CBD.
> Headstash or Money? Not money
> Is stank a problem? (I moved to CA with my cuts. I tried to do a round of Blueberry and the smell was out of control. Bike cops smelled the garden and I had a brief freak out. No more making cuts for the dispensary... lol sorry but gotta watch the plant count.) Not an issue.
> ...


Thanks for the reply. Blueberry from DJ is one of the more medicinal varieties I've tried. The high is balanced, leaning towards indica, and lasts noticeably longer than other herb.

The BBxNL hybrids make fantastic hash, and are sedative, but also not as tasty as the blueberry.


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## BCcannabis (Jan 14, 2011)

Hey Matt,
Have you heard of subculture b and m from GH. I bought them today and plan on using them in a tea, what do you think?

http://www.genhydro.com/genhydro_US/subculture.html


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## Matt Rize (Jan 14, 2011)

BCcannabis said:


> Hey Matt,
> Have you heard of subculture b and m from GH. I bought them today and plan on using them in a tea, what do you think?
> 
> http://www.genhydro.com/genhydro_US/subculture.html


 Yes, I have heard of subculture. GH is a local company for me and I've talked with the owner about the organic line.

IMO start with the M, then switch to M/B when you have a good root system established.


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## BCcannabis (Jan 14, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Yes, I have heard of subculture. GH is a local company for me and I've talked with the owner about the organic line.
> 
> IMO start with the M, then switch to M/B when you have a good root system established.


Thanks, ill just use the M for my first batch of tea then. I am using the organic lineup as well, also supposed to be veganic but im sure you know. I have had good results with that lineup and am a firm beliver in putting in good quality organic nutrients to get out good quality organic buds.


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## upthearsenal (Jan 15, 2011)

So, bioboost from 1 to 4 weeks via foliar feed (searched the thread and that's what i got)? I'm ten days in, so a bit late, what do you think would be the latest time to use it as a foliar feed? Mold issues aside.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 15, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> So, bioboost from 1 to 4 weeks via foliar feed (searched the thread and that's what i got)? I'm ten days in, so a bit late, what do you think would be the latest time to use it as a foliar feed? Mold issues aside.


It can't hurt, at any point in the life cycle. Kushman has been using the bioboost in small amounts in veg too. I stick to one good fertigation with it, and heavy foliar.


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## upthearsenal (Jan 15, 2011)

Right on, do you ever mix either the vega and flores in the same solution as the boost? I'm sure it's not an issue, but would I be killing two birds with one application? The cold temps here are causing my soil to take a while to dry, so I want to foliar feed with vega & boost and catch up with these plant's needs.

I'm also thinking of using the boost on some clones, and leaving out on others just to get an idea of what the differences are... and if I can tell a difference.


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## baldhead (Jan 15, 2011)

Bacteria multiplies in compost tea.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 15, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Right on, do you ever mix either the vega and flores in the same solution as the boost? I'm sure it's not an issue, but would I be killing two birds with one application? The cold temps here are causing my soil to take a while to dry, so I want to foliar feed with vega & boost and catch up with these plant's needs.
> 
> I'm also thinking of using the boost on some clones, and leaving out on others just to get an idea of what the differences are... and if I can tell a difference.


Yes, I mix vega and flores in with the bioboost, especially when feeding the soil. I'll give a little extra K with the seaweed. And a little extra P/Ca with the HN 0-10. But beware, that vegan plant food is perfect for mold and mildew to grow on if they stay wet too long. I like to spray when the lights first turn on, and make sure to have the de-hue running.

Side by side on cuttings? ... you won't notice much with the eye is my guess, but keep track for the entire life and see if there is any qualitative difference. I need to run some side by side action myself. Think of testing when to switch to HPS from MH, or maybe if switching back to MH at the end makes a difference.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 15, 2011)

baldhead said:


> Bacteria multiplies in compost tea.


yes, that is very important and often misunderstood. Many think that compost tea is brewing endomycorrhizal fungi, but in fact that is not that case. Endomycorrhizal fungi inoculants are introduced via spores. These spores do not "sprout" unless in contact with a root. There are no roots in compost tea. Bacteria will most likely eat the endomycorrhizal spores. Aerated Compost Teas are valuable for the life they contain. That is why I use endomycorrhizal inoculants, and then compost tea.


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## upthearsenal (Jan 15, 2011)

Muchas gracias para la informacion.

Whoops didn't specify about the cuttings... yes, in partcular qualitative difference, and taste in the final product.


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## RPsmoke420 (Jan 17, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Yes, I mix vega and flores in with the bioboost, especially when feeding the soil. I'll give a little extra K with the seaweed. And a little extra P/Ca with the HN 0-10. But beware, that vegan plant food is perfect for mold and mildew to grow on if they stay wet too long. I like to spray when the lights first turn on, and make sure to have the de-hue running.
> 
> Side by side on cuttings? ... you won't notice much with the eye is my guess, but keep track for the entire life and see if there is any qualitative difference. I need to run some side by side action myself. Think of testing when to switch to HPS from MH, or maybe if switching back to MH at the end makes a difference.


I'd like to see a controlled test... switrching back to MH the last two weeks, with no glass (just bulb). Allow the extra UV. Up the trichome production. Just a thought. If I had the room, I'd rock it now. 

Matt - do you feed N in flowering? Do you switch to bloom nutes right when you switch 12/12? Do you do a transition batch of food? Anything special? Do you cut N out completely ever? Just curious man


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## Matt Rize (Jan 17, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> I'd like to see a controlled test... switrching back to MH the last two weeks, with no glass (just bulb). Allow the extra UV. Up the trichome production. Just a thought. If I had the room, I'd rock it now.
> 
> Matt - do you feed N in flowering? Do you switch to bloom nutes right when you switch 12/12? Do you do a transition batch of food? Anything special? Do you cut N out completely ever? Just curious man


I slowly transition from Vega to Flores about two weeks in to flower... that's what the feed chart says to do


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## durbanmistyman (Jan 17, 2011)

matt i think i have a calcium def. i am using the GO organics line. i have feed with calmag twice and haven't seen any improvement. by the way i have been feeding2-2.5 tsp per gal of veg nuts and the recommended light feeding for the other supplements (not using diamond or marine)


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## Matt Rize (Jan 17, 2011)

durbanmistyman said:


> matt i think i have a calcium def. i am using the GO organics line. i have feed with calmag twice and haven't seen any improvement. by the way i have been feeding2-2.5 tsp per gal of veg nuts and the recommended light feeding for the other supplements (not using diamond or marine)


 Can we get a picture? I wouldn't doubt a cal or mg deficiency, they are common. Have you tried a foliar spray with some Calcium?


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## RPsmoke420 (Jan 17, 2011)

durbanmistyman said:


> matt i think i have a calcium def. i am using the GO organics line. i have feed with calmag twice and haven't seen any improvement. by the way i have been feeding2-2.5 tsp per gal of veg nuts and the recommended light feeding for the other supplements (not using diamond or marine)


I am using up the last of my GO bottles myself. I gave it a run on my outdoor this season, have some left overs. 

Anyway, I always found that I needed to add the max amount of Ca recommended. I also would add Epsom salt. 1/2 tsp per qt of water. I fought some deficiencies myself. 

From what I understand, General Hydro teamed up with BioBizz to make some bottled nutes (GH-BB). They had a falling out. General Hydro then released General Organics. Basically, the same line as BioBizz with a couple differences. Biobizz was well known for having a Mag deficiency, especially in flower. Started making the connection after I fought through it myself.


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## durbanmistyman (Jan 17, 2011)

these rate 2 diff ww they are the worst of my 8 plants. but all the plants seem 2 be showing similar signs.View attachment 1388049View attachment 1388040View attachment 1388041View attachment 1388042View attachment 1388043View attachment 1388044View attachment 1388045View attachment 1388046View attachment 1388047View attachment 1388048


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## durbanmistyman (Jan 17, 2011)

thinking i should maybe flush my 3 gal pots with 5 gals of calmag water?


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## RPsmoke420 (Jan 19, 2011)

Hey durban.... looks like you are fighting some deficiencies there. First guess is nitrogen. 

You could always apply a light foliar feeding. Will help get the needed nutrients directly into the plant. Sometimes helps to green them up soon. Are you in 12/12? checking pH? 

This guy took the time to scan some decent pages onto a thread. Check it out:
http://www.gardenscure.com/420/plant-nursery/89016-nutrient-deficiency-toxicity-salt-buildup-hormone.html

good luck


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## durbanmistyman (Jan 19, 2011)

thanks RP, i think im going to do a light flush and foliar feed with general organics bioweed(a seaweed extract). i havnt checked ph of soil only the water i have been using with drop tester measure around 6 ph


RPsmoke420 said:


> Hey durban.... looks like you are fighting some deficiencies there. First guess is nitrogen.
> 
> You could always apply a light foliar feeding. Will help get the needed nutrients directly into the plant. Sometimes helps to green them up soon. Are you in 12/12? checking pH?
> 
> ...


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## baldhead (Jan 25, 2011)

Looks to be deficient in N K and possibly P and Ca (feed me seymour).


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## RPsmoke420 (Jan 25, 2011)

how are they looking durban?


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## beeznutz (Jan 25, 2011)

hey y'all.....jus wanna jump in this thread and say hello.
vegan is my lifestyle and when i started growing again last yr i decided to work my way to a 100% vegan/organic crop.
i do it for myself but also for xtra cash but i figured if i'm gonna grow, might as well grow something i would smoke.
my personal flavor is sativa - i'm a chill dude as is so anything with more then 30% indica makes me into a couch potato.
been growing super haze since the summer, with the third crop on the way [in fact, jus switched to 12/12 3 days ago] and
i also got some purple kush going right now, just about a month old.

back to veganics... when i started i decided to use General Organics as it seemed like the best option available and so far it's been 
pretty good. did a few crops in soil and now i'm doing hempy buckets to see how it comes out. i have jus bout everything in 
their line: Grow, CaMg, BioWeed, Root, Bloom,DiamondBlack, and BioBud.
didn't have all their products for the first 2 crops so this is the first using everything.....

Matt, u saying how GO is local and you've in contact with them, jus wondering what's ur opinion about their products and why
uv decided not to use them......thx.

here's a few shots of the haze:


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## RPsmoke420 (Jan 25, 2011)

already stated my opinion on GO, but just had to say... damn beez, got yourself a beautiful looking canopy in that first pic.


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## beeznutz (Jan 25, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> already stated my opinion on GO, but just had to say... damn beez, got yourself a beautiful looking canopy in that first pic.


isn't that sweet looking?colors were just insane looking!! did the same strain before that crop but used differrent nutes and didn't come out as colorful so i dunno.....is it the organics or what??

i'll check ur take on the GO line RPsmoke, read about half this thread so far....


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## RPsmoke420 (Jan 25, 2011)

definitely nice man! Not sure if the organics brought the colors out, that's a trip. Maybe the temps? I don't know man. Looks real nice though. 

Basically:


> I am using up the last of my GO bottles myself. I gave it a run on my outdoor this season, have some left overs.
> 
> Anyway, I always found that I needed to add the max amount of Ca recommended. I also would add Epsom salt. 1/2 tsp per qt of water. I fought some deficiencies myself.
> 
> From what I understand, General Hydro teamed up with BioBizz to make some bottled nutes (GH-BB). They had a falling out. General Hydro then released General Organics. Basically, the same line as BioBizz with a couple differences. Biobizz was well known for having a Mag deficiency, especially in flower. Started making the connection after I fought through it myself.


Maybe a couple other posts here and there. Wasn't too thrilled, but you obviously are having great results.


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## beeznutz (Jan 25, 2011)

whatya using now? and how do u compare it to the GO line?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 25, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> whatya using now? and how do u compare it to the GO line?


hey beez, big up! great haze... mmm. in my experience veganics does help with color. 

I talked with Larry about GO, this was over a year ago. He was touring the dispensary I used to work at. He expressed unbalanced flower formula issues. That may have been corrected by now.


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## RPsmoke420 (Jan 25, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> whatya using now? and how do u compare it to the GO line?


Switched over to Canna's Bio vega and Bio Flores. I also use Nature's Nectar N. Humboldt Nutrient Natural bloom (0-10-0) and Technaflora Soluble Seaweed (1-1-16) work as bloom boosters. Also run Canna's Bio Boost along with some other misc. additives here and there. 

Can't give an honest feedback on results, as I haven't got a harvest on plants grown only with the canna nutes. The ones I have now were all GO. The next batch is mixed and not quite ready. Will be a little while before I can give an honest report.


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## beeznutz (Jan 25, 2011)

hmm, so u guys dig on that canna stuff- I'm gonna have to give it a try for sure. right now have plenty of GO left but I'll look into it next crop. i am running low in CaMg and I have to admit it, I too feel like its not enough for what it should be- u guys recommend something else? and what about the canna bioboost, is that something I could use with the current line of GO for flowering?
I'm def interested in Natures Nectar and probably get it soon and also that Technaflora Soluble Seaweed- RP, u think it's better then BioWeed?


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## beeznutz (Jan 25, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> hey beez, big up! great haze... mmm. in my experience veganics does help with color.
> 
> I talked with Larry about GO, this was over a year ago. He was touring the dispensary I used to work at. He expressed unbalanced flower formula issues. That may have been corrected by now.


when I was researching for options on organic nutes I waxnt even thinking of vegan so when I went to the local shop and saw "Vegan" written on the front of GO Grow bottle I almost wet my pants  that was it, I asked the guy at the shop who's a respectable grower and adviser about it and said def go for it do I did. in fact, I don't remember gettin any info on the Canna line while I was researching for nutes and asking on forums.....
anyhow, I was jus wondering why u choose canna over go, being a local company and all.....


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## sharpshoota (Jan 25, 2011)

General Organics is a great line, you cant go wrong with them... i have some of their floranecter (its the only questionable veganic product i own) ... they also have a great bio-organic line up.

Canna is great, G.O., Natures Necter, technaflora, humboldlt, Organicare. Everyone has their own reason on which brand is superior, just pay attention to what your plant needs and youll be fine...


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## Matt Rize (Jan 26, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> when I was researching for options on organic nutes I waxnt even thinking of vegan so when I went to the local shop and saw "Vegan" written on the front of GO Grow bottle I almost wet my pants  that was it, I asked the guy at the shop who's a respectable grower and adviser about it and said def go for it do I did. in fact, I don't remember gettin any info on the Canna line while I was researching for nutes and asking on forums.....
> anyhow, I was jus wondering why u choose canna over go, being a local company and all.....


BioCanna is certified OMRI, and Larry (owner of GH and GO) doesn't believe in certifications. Considering GH's dominance in the industry, you would think Larry could spend the bucks to get certified. The issue, as I see it, is that GO may not be organic enough to pass OMRI, and that is why he doesn't want inspections.

BioCanna is the tops vegan organic bottled food. The Bioboost can be used with any line, it's just hormones and plant regulators.

I agree that using a local company is ideal, but until the local companies catch up with Canna (and therefore BioCanna), they will get left behind. Canna fyi is the biggest chem company in the cannabis world. Across the pond they dominate the chem industry, and their BioCanna line is relatively new.

Canna also has jerk distributing rules. Only one store per region can carry their products, and they have to carry them all.


----------



## RPsmoke420 (Jan 26, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> hmm, so u guys dig on that canna stuff- I'm gonna have to give it a try for sure. right now have plenty of GO left but I'll look into it next crop. i am running low in CaMg and I have to admit it, I too feel like its not enough for what it should be- u guys recommend something else? and what about the canna bioboost, is that something I could use with the current line of GO for flowering?
> I'm def interested in Natures Nectar and probably get it soon and also that Technaflora Soluble Seaweed- RP, u think it's better then BioWeed?


*Right on Beez. Been a fan of Canna even before trying the Veganics. Loved their Bio Terra Plus dirt. Used their regular nutes for awhile with great results. Look forward to seeing what the Bio-line up does. And ya man, definitely use up what you got. Nothing wrong with that! I mean, you already got it, so rock it. 

For CaMg, I am going to try Botanicare's huvega for Mg and and Calplex for Ca. OMRI listed I believe. Calplex uses mined Gypsum (permitted by OMRI) and huvega uses Magnesium Sulfate (synthetic Epsom Salts and also OMRI listed). I believe huvega would also privide a some fulvic acids too. Pretty sure Matt here has some feedback on these. It would be new to me, when I make the switch. Still plenty of CaMg here. Nothing wrong with the traditional CaMg though, I'm just always down to try something new. * *

Bioboost works fine with other nutes. You could use it. I've read mixed results. I used it with my indoor GO lineup this last run. Not sure if it did anything though. It's also a bit pricey. Up to you man. You'd be fine without it too I'm sure. * *

I am sure that Technaflora's soluble Seaweed and Bioweed are pretty similar products. I do not know much about BioWeed, but I would bet both are from Norwegian Kelp. I think the Soluble seaweed would be more concentrated, and last longer, but not sure. With BioWeed, you are paying for some of the water included in the bottle. Also the soluble Seaweed can stay on the shelf forever. Not sure on shelf life of BioWeed. Just a thought. Sharpshoota has a great point here.*


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## Matt Rize (Jan 26, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> For CaMg, I am going to try Botanicare's huvega for Mg and and Calplex for Ca. OMRI listed I believe. Calplex uses mined Gypsum (permitted by OMRI) and huvega uses Magnesium Sulfate (synthetic Epsom Salts and also OMRI listed). I believe huvega would also privide a some fulvic acids too. Pretty sure Matt here has some feedback on these. It would be new to me, when I make the switch. Still plenty of CaMg here. Nothing wrong with the traditional CaMg though, I'm just always down to try something new.


I am using those two for Ca/Mg/S. They are both OMRI and with a tiny bit of Mineral Matrix (as needed) covers the bases well. The huvega is not really for soil feeding, but will be good when mixed with the humic acid in calplex. Fulvic acid... well it's not on the label due to CA law, but I'm pretty sure it's in the huvega.

I like CalMag products in general they are needed. But finding something that has passed OMRI inspection part of what we are doing.

2011 IS THE YEAR TO GET YOUR MMJ GARDEN CERTIFIED ORGANIC! This means anything from a bottle must be OMRI. 



RPsmoke420 said:


> Bioboost works fine with other nutes. You could use it. I've read mixed results. I used it with my indoor GO lineup this last run. Not sure if it did anything though. It's also a bit pricey. Up to you man. You'd be fine without it too I'm sure.


Bioboost doesnt do much alone. It is plant hormones. BioBoost allows your plants to do more, but the plants need to have the "building blocks" to make these complex terpenoids, that the bioboost encourages.


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## beeznutz (Jan 26, 2011)

jus checked with local shop and I guess biocanna is not certified in Ohio but they're opening a shop in Michigan and they're gonna cary it there so suppusely Ohio might b next, maybe later this yr...
iv check some online shops and looks like biocanna is almost twice as much in price compared with GO - I wonder how much more/less would u use compared with the GO line...
RP, uv switched from GO to biocanna, how do you feel about that?
personally, I don't get too concerned with prices...when I look at it, the goodness ur getting as a final product plus making xtra cash from selling, It more, lots more then justifies it .....
jus asking outta curiosity


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## sharpshoota (Jan 26, 2011)

i use canna bio line plus organicare's huvega/humega/calplex/seaplex as supplements, couldnt be any happier with the results thus far. Canna's nutirents smell damn good!!


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## upthearsenal (Jan 26, 2011)

I love the smell of biocanna teriyaki 

Anyways, what's everyone's favorite chelating agent?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 26, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> I love the smell of biocanna teriyaki
> 
> Anyways, what's everyone's favorite chelating agent?


Humic and fulvic are chelating agents, and most of these OMRI formulas are chelating using those two and/or citric acid. 
Agreed on the teriyaki. I'm about to do a video where I drink a cup of my solution to show how great vegan organics is.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 26, 2011)

BioBoost MSDS
http://www.igrowhydro.com/canna/BioBoost-MSDS.pdf


> Page 1 / 2 MSDS: BIOCANNa BIOBOOST
> 1. IDENTIFICATION OF THE SUBSTANCE / PREPARATION AND
> COMPANY / UNDERTAKING
> Product name: BIOCANNA BIOBOOST
> ...


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 26, 2011)

BioCanna Vega




> Page 1 / 2 MSDS: BIOCANNa BIOVEGA
> 1. IDENTIFICATION OF THE SUBSTANCE / PREPARATION AND
> COMPANY / UNDERTAKING
> Product name: BIOCANNA BIOVEGA
> ...


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## virgrow (Jan 26, 2011)

how many ml. per gallon do you use. I've found that the web site and the feeding chart card I got with my nutes differ quite a bit. I am new to biocanna. I was at the harvest dance and heard you and kushman talking veganics and was very intrigued. So now I am the proud owner of the biocanna line. I have a closed system and the plants are in botanicare ready gro moisture mix. I feed every other day. any pointers on strength.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 26, 2011)

virgrow said:


> how many ml. per gallon do you use. I've found that the web site and the feeding chart card I got with my nutes differ quite a bit. I am new to biocanna. I was at the harvest dance and heard you and kushman talking veganics and was very intrigued. So now I am the proud owner of the biocanna line. I have a closed system and the plants are in botanicare ready gro moisture mix. I feed every other day. any pointers on strength.


Check my grow journal out, the link is in my signature at the bottom of my posts. I have some numbers listed for my veg cycle regime. I should also say that how I grow is different than Kushman. We both use the Biocanna, but there are many differences. 

Thanks for listening at the harvest dance. Kushman wouldn't stfu as usual... I had a whole demonstration on brewing teas planned. That guy.


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## Digispliff (Jan 27, 2011)

Just started my first grow, veganically (some of the starter fertilizers in Sunshine Mix #4 Advanced might not be, but other than that). Not because I think animal-based fertilizers don't grow excellent cannabis (they do), or because I think feeding plants poop is gross (I don't), but rather because I know that using plant-based nutrition is much better for the environment. We're about to run out of seabird guano, harvesting bat guano does huge damage to the environment, and bone and blood meal are generally stockyard products. Yuck. However, I'm not sure how I feel about using Soy as a nitrogen base a la Nature's Nectar, eitherchances are that's Monstanto GE soy, which does arguably as much damage as guano harvesting. 

At any rate, check out the grow here and let me know if you have any suggestions.


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## ebflow (Jan 27, 2011)

It should be Organic Soybeans, which i believe can't be GMO technically. http://www.omri.org/suppliers/GMO


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## TheOrganic (Jan 27, 2011)

Can't get biocanna online that sucks HUMBOLDT it is!
Isn't vegan organic I am lost on all the bullshit on this. I guess I should wiki vegan. Sounds like I would kick your ass as a alpha male cause your weak from not being a omnivore cause thats what we are. Weed out the weak 2012.


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## upthearsenal (Jan 28, 2011)

Aren't there tons of places online to get it?


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## Digispliff (Jan 28, 2011)

ebflow said:


> It should be Organic Soybeans, which i believe can't be GMO technically. http://www.omri.org/suppliers/GMO


That is assuming this part doesn't apply to GMO soybeans. Oh, OMRI: 

When specific criteria are met, a GE material is reviewed as non-GE material and may be allowed for use in OMRI Listed products.

And they don't tell you what those criteria are unless you apply to be certified. 

And yes, there are plenty of places online to get BioCanna. Try here: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=buy+biocanna+vega


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## beeznutz (Jan 28, 2011)

what are our option for mycorrhizal fungi?


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## NightbirdX (Jan 28, 2011)

Hey guys, I had a few questions as I've had a few problems over the last couple months. First off, I am a new grower, but have some experience using the Fox Farms line of Nutrients and we have that pretty dialed in, we were looking to move to the BioCanna line. I decided to be the guinea pig and went off and got set up. I had some problems right off. I was using Canna Coco with my BioVega, Cannazyme, and Rhizotonic. The plants yellowed over the next week. I got in touch with Canna and they told me that I needed to go with a peat based fertilized soil, so I went back and picked up some Happy Frog Organic Soil. For the next week, I gave the plants water, Rhizotonic, and Cannazyme. They turned green again and started to grow. The following week, I added 4ml of BioVega to the mix, and the following week I went to 8ml. I started having problems and signs of Nutrient Burn were popping up so I went back to just water and Rhizo/'Zyme. They are doing well again, and at the beginning of next week will be going into bloom. 

My questions are about the Happy Frog Soil. I used it because we I couldn't find any BioTerra Plus as it is now not allowed to be imported due to sterilization issues. I was told Happy Frog was comparable and that I should use a ferilized soil, so I went with that. I don't even think that you need nutes if you are using the fertilized soil. I am pretty sure that if I just added water to them when they were dry, they would do their thing. Thus negating the need for the nutrients, lol. The other problem is that the water retention is terrible. On my newest set going into veg and from here on out, I believe, I cut the soil with Pro-Mix in a 1:1 ratio. The water retention is much better, but now I will have to retweak my nutrient mix. 

So basically ya that is it, any ideas? I am thinking that when I go into bloom with these I will have leeched enough of the nutrients in the soil to safely use the BioFlores without burning them again. When I start veg with my 1:1 ratio plants, should I let them use the nutes in the soil for a week and then add my BioVega in after that? Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 28, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> what are our option for mycorrhizal fungi?


http://www.bioag.com/oregonorderpage.html


> VAM- Endo MixTM: A superior mycorrhizal fungi product made by top US researchers with over twenty years applied experience. VAM-Endo mix contains 7 different strains and 158 propagules per gram. Shop and compare! Improves transplant success, increases absorption of water and nutrients and enhances plant growth. Use in a variety of applications including dry broadcast for turf and farms or add to liquid for hydroponic, irrigation, and hand-watering applications. Use for seed treatments, clones/cuttings, and fortification after making compost tea.
> 
> For prices and sizes click the Buy Now link and you will be redirected to the order cart.


From my sources this is the best myco product. And the other myco products are re-labeled and more expensive versions of this product.


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## RPsmoke420 (Jan 28, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Bioboost doesnt do much alone. It is plant hormones. BioBoost allows your plants to do more, but the plants need to have the "building blocks" to make these complex terpenoids, that the bioboost encourages.


Exactly. It's an elicitor of sorts. I would think it would still be beneficial to use with other nutrients though, and not only Canna specific. 



> Boosters comprise a large family of products and they come in various types: growth boosters, flowering boosters, rooting boosters and so on. The technical term is actually elicitors, and most of the time they are natural extracts from plants. A large number of plants synthesize molecules that are not directly linked to their metabolism. Some of these molecules are useful for plant survivalfor instance, they can give the plant a bitter taste, making them less palatable for grazing animals, or they can help the plant survive temperature fluctuations. They are also the chemical weapons used by plants in their never-ending fight for space, light and food. Although the benefit for the plant is clear in the case of many of these booster molecules, the reason why the plant spends energy to manufacture some of themreferred to under the generic name of secondary metabolitesis actually far from obvious. These include essential oils, tannins, alkaloids, latex, glycosides, terpens and many others. These secondary metabolites provide us with a number of medicines, essential oils and resins, as well as tannins for leather, natural insecticides, spices and flavors for the kitchen and much more. Nature provides us with thousands of these compounds and a single plant species can produce a large variety of them. It is among the secondary metabolites that we find the building blocks for the boosters, which are extracted from one plant or another according to the desired effect. Here is a simple example that anybody can try: willow contains molecules that will help a cutting during the rooting stage. Cut some young twigs of willow about four inches long and soak them in water for a few days. You can then use that water as a root booster by watering your cuttings with it or by soaking the stem of cuttings in that water before putting them in place. You will be amazed how efficient the maceration can be! According to the plant that you choose for extraction as well as the process used, you can achieve a large spectrum of effects. Generally speaking, not only do boosters increase a plant's intake capacity for nutritional elements but can also help to move them inside the plant. Boosters can also promote the growth of a vigorous root system, improving the general health of the plant as well as its capacity to fight harmful fungi and pathogens. On top of this internal effect, boosters also play a part in the surroundings of the plant, tending to favor the development of beneficial micro-organisms in the root zone. Elicitors are still a novelty in the agricultural world, however. At first, they were used primarily by greenhouse growers, nurseries and plant collectors on plants, which generated a large added value, but they are now slowly starting to gain ground in field agriculture. Although they can be expensive, in many cases the economic benefits of using elicitors largely offsets their cost, and it is regulations rather than price that are slowing down research progress. At the same time, it is a sad truth that lobbies from large chemical groups are not keen to see natural elicitors coming on the market and displacing some of their own products.


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## beeznutz (Jan 28, 2011)

thx Matt....
iv checked the site and it seems that it's not OMRI, also not much info as to where the ingredients are from so do you have any info on that? I also sent them an email inquring about OMRI and whether it is vegan based so will see what they have to say about it.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 28, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> Exactly. It's an elicitor of sorts. I would think it would still be beneficial to use with other nutrients though, and not only Canna specific.


For sure. I use the technaflora 1-1-16 and HN 0-10-0 with the bioboost. On top of the flores.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 28, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> thx Matt....
> iv checked the site and it seems that it's not OMRI, also not much info as to where the ingredients are from so do you have any info on that? I also sent them an email inquring about OMRI and whether it is vegan based so will see what they have to say about it.


not sure any of the myco-inoculants are OMRI. 
This product came highly recommended by a couple professionals in the compost tea industry.


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## RPsmoke420 (Jan 28, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> For sure. I use the technaflora 1-1-16 and HN 0-10-0 with the bioboost. On top of the flores.


*Right on man. Just started rocking the HN bloom myself. Love the soluble seaweed!

*


Matt Rize said:


> not sure any of the myco-inoculants are OMRI.
> This product came highly recommended by a couple professionals in the compost tea industry.


http://www.bio-organics.com/Mycorrhizae_Products.html

http://www.fedcoseeds.com/ogs/certifiedproducts.htm


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## sharpshoota (Jan 28, 2011)

hey matt,
i just picked up a bottle of mayan mycrozyme. i got the biggest one they had and its still the smallest bottle ive seen, lol. 

How should i feed this? it must be super concentrated... and i remember you told me it wasnt much of a zyme so if you could go into some more detail that would be great, and im sure HN would love you for whatever u post lol


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## Matt Rize (Jan 28, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> *Right on man. Just started rocking the HN bloom myself. Love the soluble seaweed!*
> http://www.bio-organics.com/Mycorrhizae_Products.html
> http://www.fedcoseeds.com/ogs/certifiedproducts.htm


Great links bro! There are a couple great endo-myco inoculants that are OMRI. Most of them are coming from the OR/CA border area because this is where they all mined.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 28, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> hey matt,
> i just picked up a bottle of mayan mycrozyme. i got the biggest one they had and its still the smallest bottle ive seen, lol.
> 
> How should i feed this? it must be super concentrated... and i remember you told me it wasnt much of a zyme so if you could go into some more detail that would be great, and im sure HN would love you for whatever u post lol


Follow the directions, they are printed tiny on the back. They can also be looked up online. Even within RIU you can search around and find some great info on Mayan Microzyme. It is a capsulated microbe, a Nitrogen bacteria fixing specie, actually two species. I use it in late veg.

You dilute the mayan and add molasses, then bubble for one to three days. Then dilute again and feed.

Humboldt Nutrients makes some good stuff, they make some crap too. If they don't start paying OMRI then they are getting left behind. I am about to get my garden certified organic, and they don't cut it.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 28, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Follow the directions, they are printed tiny on the back. They can also be looked up online. Even within RIU you can search around and find some great info on Mayan Microzyme. It is a capsulated microbe, a Nitrogen bacteria fixing specie, actually two species. I use it in late veg.
> 
> You dilute the mayan and add molasses, then bubble for one to three days. Then dilute again and feed.
> 
> Humboldt Nutrients makes some good stuff, they make some crap too. If they don't start paying OMRI then they are getting left behind. I am about to get my garden certified organic, and they don't cut it.


well if my bottle had the dilution ratio on it... you reccommended it so i just wanted to check back with you (takin the easy road lol). sorry for the stupid question though
when you say dilute again, if i did 5ml/ per gallon, bubble it for a couple days, then add another 5ml/ per gallon. so basically i would be adding 10ml/ per gallon but just doing it over time, in order to build some microbial life... sorry again bro i know it must be hard, ill leave ya alone tho man lol
and the bottle i got is listed as OMRI but it may be old...


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 28, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Hey guys, I had a few questions as I've had a few problems over the last couple months. First off, I am a new grower, but have some experience using the Fox Farms line of Nutrients and we have that pretty dialed in, we were looking to move to the BioCanna line. I decided to be the guinea pig and went off and got set up. I had some problems right off. I was using Canna Coco with my BioVega, Cannazyme, and Rhizotonic.


Coco is close to hydro. Canna makes different nutes for coco. The Biocanna line is made to be used with soil, or the Bioterra Plus. BT Plus is an peat/bark/coco mix with very high end peat



NightbirdX said:


> The plants yellowed over the next week. I got in touch with Canna and they told me that I needed to go with a peat based fertilized soil, so I went back and picked up some Happy Frog Organic Soil. For the next week, I gave the plants water, Rhizotonic, and Cannazyme. They turned green again and started to grow. The following week, I added 4ml of BioVega to the mix, and the following week I went to 8ml. I started having problems and signs of Nutrient Burn were popping up so I went back to just water and Rhizo/'Zyme. They are doing well again, and at the beginning of next week will be going into bloom.


8mL/gal is a big jump from 4 over that time period. Check my journal in my sig, I have some numbers listed. Try going more gradual. Get a plastic syringe from the pharmacy to measure your nutes for accuracy. And forget the coco unless it is small part of the mix. Coco is in BioTerra Plus, but in lesser amounts relative to the peat. It's all about the peat!



NightbirdX said:


> My questions are about the Happy Frog Soil. I used it because we I couldn't find any BioTerra Plus as it is now not allowed to be imported due to sterilization issues. I was told Happy Frog was comparable and that I should use a ferilized soil, so I went with that. I don't even think that you need nutes if you are using the fertilized soil.


Happy frog has enough food for a few weeks, that is all, and is by design. But if you are using a true soil (check my "what is soil-less organic" thread) then you need little or no extra nutes. 



NightbirdX said:


> I am pretty sure that if I just added water to them when they were dry, they would do their thing. Thus negating the need for the nutrients, lol. The other problem is that the water retention is terrible. On my newest set going into veg and from here on out, I believe, I cut the soil with Pro-Mix in a 1:1 ratio. The water retention is much better, but now I will have to retweak my nutrient mix.


Water retention is terrible how? Stays wet too long?
When I used Happy Frog I cut in a little perlite.



NightbirdX said:


> So basically ya that is it, any ideas? I am thinking that when I go into bloom with these I will have leeched enough of the nutrients in the soil to safely use the BioFlores without burning them again. When I start veg with my 1:1 ratio plants, should I let them use the nutes in the soil for a week and then add my BioVega in after that? Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.


1:1 ratio plants: I can't tell you for certain. I do not run that system. It should not be that different. You are mostly changing the perlite content by using pro mix. I would just add some grade 3 perlite to the happy frog and 8/6 the perlite. Let them use the available food, this is when you add inoculants and teas, both, separately.
If you have not been using any nutrients, then introduce them gradually. If you have signs of overfeeding, or imbalance, then back off. After I transplant I do not feed for a couple waterings. Then I slowly start using the bottled nutes as needed. Do not start using the Flores until two or three weeks into flower.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 28, 2011)

Here's my girls, from my journal, found in my signature.
Green Crack aka Cush


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 28, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> well if my bottle had the dilution ratio on it... you reccommended it so i just wanted to check back with you (takin the easy road lol). sorry for the stupid question though
> when you say dilute again, if i did 5ml/ per gallon, bubble it for a couple days, then add another 5ml/ per gallon. so basically i would be adding 10ml/ per gallon but just doing it over time, in order to build some microbial life... sorry again bro i know it must be hard, ill leave ya alone tho man lol
> and the bottle i got is listed as OMRI but it may be old...


It's all good mang. I have no secret for the Mayan Microzyme. I use it once per cycle, and again if I let the media get too dry at any point.
The idea is you add the 5mL to a gallon of water with a good tbs of molasses. Then bubble it and let the organisms wake up, the encapsulation dissolves, and, maybe even the microbes grow in solution. Then you take this relatively strong solution and dilute it again. Any tea you brew (this isn't really tea but is similar) will need to be diluted at least 1:20, probably 1:30.

Hey, sorry if I come across abrupt, been having wrist issues, lol, effing laptop keyboard.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 28, 2011)

GC is looking mighty fine there!!


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## virgrow (Jan 29, 2011)

checked out your journal, looks good. do you use anything other than the vega and rizo in the veg cycle? and when do you add the extra P and K, as soon as you start the flores or later in flowering? also do you use tea with every feeding? thanks.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 29, 2011)

virgrow said:


> checked out your journal, looks good. do you use anything other than the vega and rizo in the veg cycle? and when do you add the extra P and K, as soon as you start the flores or later in flowering? also do you use tea with every feeding? thanks.


 Im also using Calplex and Huvega, a tiny bit of mineral matrix, some wet betty, white widow, and molasses.

Teas (just EWC and molasses usually) are for microbes and I do that once or twice in mid and late beg. Its about tea time for me. I'll post some pics of the process, I brew tiny batches. It's really simple.


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## beeznutz (Jan 29, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> *Right on man. Just started rocking the HN bloom myself. Love the soluble seaweed!
> 
> *
> 
> ...



nice RP 
i remember checking that site about a yr ago, totally forgot about it....

checked the bio-organics but wasn't too keen on their presentation, left me wonder, i don't know why...

mycorrhizae.com looks pretty good and they have a few options to choose from but their MycoEndo products are nowhere to be found, only thing available is Great White and Plant Succes here: http://mycorrhizalonline.com/default.aspx

this is from their site:

MycoApply® Endo

Granular
4 species Endomycorrhizae
60,000 Propagules per lb.
MycoApply® Ultrafine Endo

Powder (can pass # 70 screen)
4 species Endomycorrhizae
130,000 Propagules per pound
MycoApply® Liquid Endo

Liquid suspension (can pass # 70 screen)
Now with 4 species Endomycorrhizae
3.6 Million Endo Propagules per Gallon
MycoApply® Soluble Endo

Powder (can pass # 70 screen)
4 species Endomycorrhizae (40,000 Propagules/lb.)
High Quality Soluble Organic Fertilizer 5-0-2
MycoApply® Soluble MAXX

Powder (can pass # 70 screen)
9 species Endo & 11 species Ectomycorrhizae
31,200 Endo & 1.5 billion Ecto Propagules per lb.
15 species Bacteria, 2 species Trichoderma and specially formulated amendments.


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## beeznutz (Jan 29, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Here's my girls, from my journal, found in my signature.
> Green Crack aka Cush


oh yeah, looking NICE! green&healthy, me likes.....

what do u use for mollases? anything in particular?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 29, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> oh yeah, looking NICE! green&healthy, me likes.....
> 
> what do u use for mollases? anything in particular?


 Wholesome sweeteners organic blackstrap. Best tasting to me, best to the girls... in theory


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## beeznutz (Jan 29, 2011)

it's official:

VAM- Endo MixTM

Yes the product is organic. All components are naturally occurring and all 
species of mycorrhizae are not genetically modified in any way. There are no 
animal or animal byproducts, so yes it is vegan. Thanks for taking the time to 
contact us with your questions.


Best Regards,

Ryan Zadow
R&D/Technical Sales Support
BioAg Inc.
land 503-838-2467


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## Matt Rize (Jan 29, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> it's official:
> 
> VAM- Endo MixTM
> 
> ...


Wonderful. He says it is organic, but no mention of certification. Regardless, that is the best product according to the pros, in terms of price vs efficacy.


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## NightbirdX (Jan 30, 2011)

I'm going to try to get my hands on some BTP, but I think for now I'll just be doing the Happy Frog with the Pro Mix in it. I have a lot of Pro Mix at hand and am trying to be frugal where I can.  I've been thinking about how i'm going to do it, and I think on the first 2 weeks in veg it will be getting Rhizo and Zyme and like you said I will gradually add in nutes after that. The first run is always the most stressful when tweaking your recipe and learning new strains. 

When do you think I should be adding in Bio Boost? It says to when flowering is initiated, but it also says that with the Flores, and you suggest waiting 2-3 weeks into flowering. I'm still learning, so thank you for your patience and advice.

Edit: Oh and about the water retention. The Happy Frog barely soaks anything up and a lot of the water is running to the pan in the bottom. I have slowed watering basically down to a quarter gallon over a couple minutes and move to a different plant until I've given it what it needs, but a lot of the water still makes it to the bottom of the bucket in the pan.


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## Digispliff (Jan 30, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> When do you think I should be adding in Bio Boost? It says to when flowering is initiated, but it also says that with the Flores, and you suggest waiting 2-3 weeks into flowering. I'm still learning, so thank you for your patience and advice.


According to the Canna feed chart which Matt says he follows, you should start using it "when small fruits develop" about 1-3 weeks into flower (like the Flores) and keep using it through the end (not like the Flores). I believe he's following the "light" feeding schedule, more or less. The BioCanna schedule can be found here: http://www.cannagardening.com/growguide


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## NightbirdX (Jan 30, 2011)

Thank you Digispliff, that is what I had planned, but wasn't really sure. I had heard several different things in regards to this and it is nice to hear something along the lines of what I was reading and thinking. 

Is there a section or any information that I can be pointed to about teas and inoculants?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 30, 2011)

Digispliff said:


> According to the Canna feed chart which Matt says he follows, you should start using it "when small fruits develop" about 1-3 weeks into flower (like the Flores) and keep using it through the end (not like the Flores). I believe he's following the "light" feeding schedule, more or less. The BioCanna schedule can be found here: http://www.cannagardening.com/growguide


Yes, but I foliar the boost to save money, and cut it out last two weeks. Im using some cal/mag on top of the light feeding schedule, basically. more tomrrow, hash pills making it hard to type. Finally finished bubbling and made about 40 more grams of jack bubble tonight. zzzz


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## beeznutz (Jan 30, 2011)

hey Matt, i think im going with the VAM Endo but i can't decide which size to order- whattya suggest? 100g or 300g?
if you can give me an idea about your method of application [how much do you use and at what stages of growth for
how many plants] that would be helpful.

thx......


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## Matt Rize (Jan 30, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> hey Matt, i think im going with the VAM Endo but i can't decide which size to order- whattya suggest? 100g or 300g?
> if you can give me an idea about your method of application [how much do you use and at what stages of growth for
> how many plants] that would be helpful.
> 
> thx......


 It depends on your garden size and if you can split it with friends. I would buy the smaller size. I do not use large amounts of inoculants, just need them early to get established.


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## beeznutz (Jan 30, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> It depends on your garden size and if you can split it with friends. I would buy the smaller size. I do not use large amounts of inoculants, just need them early to get established.


gotcha...
I have 10 cuttings about a month old and getting ready to transplant this week into bigger pots and put them under T5-
would u still recommend it at this stage?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 30, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> gotcha...
> I have 10 cuttings about a month old and getting ready to transplant this week into bigger pots and put them under T5-
> would u still recommend it at this stage?


Perfect time to inoculate is while transplanting. You can sprinkle some in under your root ball, and water some in. Kushman constantly re-inoculates, something I am sure has any affect.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 30, 2011)

should I add humic acid every feeding??

edit: I have humega but I was interested in getting rare earth by GH because of its silicates, on top of the humates and minerals.. whats your thoughts on the product?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 30, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> should I add humic acid every feeding??
> 
> edit: I have humega but I was interested in getting rare earth by GH because of its silicates, on top of the humates and minerals.. whats your thoughts on the product?


I have not used the rare earth, but I like the description. Although Larry, GH, is anti certification which means he is never going to make the final cut.
Many of our products have humic acid in them already. Myco madness is an example. And yes, a little every feeding to help build your media and to chelate.


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## NightbirdX (Jan 31, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> jus checked with local shop and I guess biocanna is not certified in Ohio but they're opening a shop in Michigan and they're gonna cary it there so suppusely Ohio might b next, maybe later this yr...


Where in Michigan are they opening up a shop if you don't mind? I live in Michigan and would love to have a chat/visit with them, lol.


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## NightbirdX (Jan 31, 2011)

I see you guys talking about innoculants and teas. Could someone give some clarification as to what this entails and which products I might consider?


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## sharpshoota (Jan 31, 2011)

inncoluants and teas basically build the beneficial bacteria in your medium so your roots can absorb whats readily available more effiecently.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 31, 2011)

General hydropnics subculture is a good incoulant. 

as far as teas, most organic growers use guano for teas, however, the basis of veganics is loose the shit. so we wont teach that here.

i use (Vermicrop Organics VermiBlend Premium Soil Amendment was created for the organic gardener. VermiBlend Premium Soil Amendment has a unique blend of earthworm castings, compost, fossilized kelp, humus, rock minerals, and mycorrhizae to provide ample amounts of micro nutrients, trace minerals, and beneficial microbes) 

^^^the only questionable thing in it is the earthworm castings which is a still a debate i believe depending on the acutal earthworms and where they are from, hopefully not shit. lol. but since i dont have my own compost this is what i use.

then you have to aerate this. as well as feed molasses to the microbes and bacteria in the tea so they will multiply into a diverse population.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 31, 2011)

roots organic makes a product called "oregonism xl" it has a good amount of endo/ecto mycorrhize and trichoderma


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## NightbirdX (Jan 31, 2011)

I have a Mycorhizzae powder I top feed every couple of weeks and after transplanting.

I also have been using Peppermint Jim Soil rejuvenator which is an 100% Organic Mint compost which is made locally in St. John's, Michigan. It was recommended by a friend at the grow shop when I was having trouble with yellowing during the veg and worked great, the roots really love it, so I have added it to the mix during transplanting and i'll sprinkle some on every couple of weeks.

Does it sound like I am heading in the right direction?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 31, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> I have a Mycorhizzae powder I top feed every couple of weeks and during transplanting, does that count?


Exactly. That's the idea. With a does of compost tea, or two, that's the life aka microbes.


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## NightbirdX (Jan 31, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Exactly. That's the idea. With a does of compost tea, or two, that's the life aka microbes.


It sounds like my research and the advice given on the organic approach was spot on. I have been going in the right direction and didn't even know it, lol.


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## fourtwentyish (Jan 31, 2011)

I am glad I came across this thread. I practice a vegan lifestyle and had a bit of difficulty planning out my first grow because of lack of info available. I just hit up a bunch of local places that sell nutes and found the ones that didn't have animal by products in them. My first grow attempt with bag seed didn't make it. I added nutes to the soil before planting the seedlings, won't repeat that mistake. Got some feminized white widow seeds germinating now and picked up some seedling friendly soil to start with as well. I am very happy to see "plant based organic horticulture" as a rising trend. Keep up the good work fellas.


btw, I have been lurking here for quite some time but never posted. Thanks for giving me a reason to pop my cherry


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## NightbirdX (Jan 31, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> ...as far as teas, most organic growers use guano for teas, however, the basis of veganics is loose the shit. so we wont teach that here.


So I have been using this Peppermint Jim's Soil Rejuvenator as a source of Nitrogen. You were talking about the guanos for tea. Are you using it for Nitrogen and general plant health? Would my soil rejuvenator be a good replacement for guano? 

This is the site where it explains what it is made of and what it does. It is 100% organic and veganic, made from Mint compost. Any thoughts anyone?


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## sharpshoota (Jan 31, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> So I have been using this Peppermint Jim's Soil Rejuvenator as a source of Nitrogen. You were talking about the guanos for tea. Are you using it for Nitrogen and general plant health? Would my soil rejuvenator be a good replacement for guano?
> 
> This is the site where it explains what it is made of and what it does. It is 100% organic and veganic, made from Mint compost. Any thoughts anyone?


it is a very interesting find you have there, i personally have never heard of it... from what i found its just broken down plant matter, which is what veganics is all about. 

Yes the idea with adding the guanos is to add nitrogen or phosphurs depending on which you buy... but again i am not reccommending guano as this is a veganics and we are here to promote alternative methods of growing, cause really who likes getting there hands full of shit lol but basically your compost is providing the beneficial aerobic organisms, in a compost tea. you can add nutriends but thats not really the idea, its to build the microbial life, correct me if im wrong matt...


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## NightbirdX (Jan 31, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> it is a very interesting find you have there, i personally have never heard of it... from what i found its just broken down plant matter, which is what veganics is all about.
> 
> Yes the idea with adding the guanos is to add nitrogen or phosphurs depending on which you buy... but again i am not reccommending guano as this is a veganics and we are here to promote alternative methods of growing, cause really who likes getting there hands full of shit lol but basically your compost is providing the beneficial aerobic organisms, in a compost tea. you can add nutriends but thats not really the idea, its to build the microbial life, correct me if im wrong matt...


Ya, I had never heard of it nor did I know anyone that used it until I talked to a friend about the problems I was having and he recommended it. I was using it to help sooth some stressed malnutritioned plants, but reading up on it, it seemed like a 2 for 1 kind of a thing. 

The more I was reading about the teas, the more I thought it was appropriate for this grow method adding the microbial life. I just wanted to check with the experts.  I have been using it at about week 2 of Veg, top feeding it and watering it in. We were having some problems with some mothers and I sprinkled it on top of it and it worked great to liven the plants back up, even though we later had to scrap the mothers. 

I have been adding Plant Succes Organic Soluble Miycorrhizae also at about 4 weeks of veg top sprinkled on top and watered in. 

When is the suggested time to use innoculants and teas?


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## sharpshoota (Feb 1, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Ya, I had never heard of it nor did I know anyone that used it until I talked to a friend about the problems I was having and he recommended it. I was using it to help sooth some stressed malnutritioned plants, but reading up on it, it seemed like a 2 for 1 kind of a thing.
> 
> The more I was reading about the teas, the more I thought it was appropriate for this grow method adding the microbial life. I just wanted to check with the experts.  I have been using it at about week 2 of Veg, top feeding it and watering it in. We were having some problems with some mothers and I sprinkled it on top of it and it worked great to liven the plants back up, even though we later had to scrap the mothers.
> 
> ...


Matt is the real expert here but i like to help out where i can... you should read up on his threads, hes got some good info here as well...

u want to use teas all through the life cycle because it helps the microbial life in the soil thrive, the mycorrhiaze you dont need to use all the time. maybe twice. during veg. im sure others have some input on this...


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## RPsmoke420 (Feb 1, 2011)

Hey Matt... how about pest control? I will admit, i am guilty of using Hot Shot No Pest Strips. They contain dichlorvos as I'm sure ya know. Heard some complain of rashes from this. I remember we talked breifly about some issues with neem "super concentrates" such as Azamax. I think it was something with old people skin? 

http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/FactSheet/Pesticide/fs20.dichlorvos.cfmhttp://envirocancer.cornell.edu/FactSheet/Pesticide/fs20.dichlorvos.cfm


OSHA recommend limited exposure:
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/dichlorvos/recognition.html

So what are some great "Veganic" pest solutions? How about preventatives? Things like sand for Gnats and what not. It'd be great. Thanks man. 

Would also be cool to see what plants would help outdoors. I know certain plants chase of specific pests (sometimes). Would be another cool read. 

Toking and typing


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## NightbirdX (Feb 1, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> Hey Matt... how about pest control? I will admit, i am guilty of using Hot Shot No Pest Strips. They contain dichlorvos as I'm sure ya know. Heard some complain of rashes from this. I remember we talked breifly about some issues with neem "super concentrates" such as Azamax. I think it was something with old people skin?
> 
> So what are some great "Veganic" pest solutions? How about preventatives? Things like sand for Gnats and what not. It'd be great. Thanks man.


I was wondering that also. I apply neem 2-3 times prior to flowering to help with PM and mites, and so far it has worked wonders. But in our flower room we had an outbreak of spidermites about halfway through flowering and we aren't sure what to do about it, so far I've just been trying to take them off of the plant when I see build up. Any advice?


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## coolupdscene (Feb 1, 2011)

dude, canna will make amazing plants but it is still bottled...and mined...so its not really part of the holy grail of TRUE organics. Most ppl wanna think that just cause it has the carbon lifeforms present that that is what makes organic...it does "scientifically" but not REALLY. Im not trying to bash ur style bro but I preach TRUE organics with compost teas and composted soil using sustainable nutrients and compost matter and NEVER bottled thus the plant is truly ur own brand, not the government brand, figuratively speaking. I personally dont care about "Vegan" organics cause all the best life comes from death neways. We need to start worrying about sustainability rather than the next non-"meat" product we can buy...its about the planet we breathe rather than trying to create our own little bubble of "health" even though the bubble still harms the environment so it wont make u live longer neway...


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## coolupdscene (Feb 1, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> With the theory out there, let's go to practice. Vegan is showing up on all sorts of labels these days, but the word itself means little. Most chemy nutes are vegan. What I am talking about when I say veganics is plant-based nutes.
> 
> That brings us to the best nute company in the world, CANNA. Who else has the balls to directly label the product this way? I've never tested their chemy lines but have read great reviews. The BioCanna line is the backbone of veganics, and on a level all its own in the nute world. Don't you just love the smell of Vega and Flores? Yum, like molasses and soy sauce. If you are on a budget the BioBoost can be foliar fed, but both is better . One thing to note is that advanced gardeners will have to feed heavy and possibly supplement N in veg and P/K in flower for optimal results. The BioCanna website has lots of great info about the special process of plant fermentation and extraction used to make this unique line of nutes. They are sourcing from all over the world to make the best vegan organic plant-extract nutes.[dude, canna will make amazing plants but it is still bottled...and mined...so its not really part of the holy grail of TRUE organics. Most ppl wanna think that just cause it has the carbon lifeforms present that that is what makes organic...it does "scientifically" but not REALLY. Im not trying to bash ur style bro but I preach TRUE organics with compost teas and composted soil using sustainable nutrients and compost matter and NEVER bottled thus the plant is truly ur own brand, not the government brand, figuratively speaking. I personally dont care about "Vegan" organics cause all the best life comes from death neways. We need to start worrying about sustainability rather than the next non-"meat" product we can buy...its about the planet we breathe rather than trying to create our own little bubble of "health" even though the bubble still harms the environment so it wont make u live longer neway...​
> ]


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## sharpshoota (Feb 2, 2011)

coolupdscene said:


> dude, canna will make amazing plants but it is still bottled...and mined...so its not really part of the holy grail of TRUE organics. Most ppl wanna think that just cause it has the carbon lifeforms present that that is what makes organic...it does "scientifically" but not REALLY Im not trying to bash ur style bro but.


dude, science is backed by real facts, but REALLY we should listen to you. ok. Nobody is bashing organics yet you come here in defense and bash veganics. Go on the hydro threads and bash them too why dont you. I practice veganic growing. Not veganic lifestyle. I eat chicken, steak, burgers, i just dont play with shit. We have heard you and many others come here and express their opinion and thats all it is, an opinion. Just because a nutrient in a bottle means, oh its not organic then tell me, How do these companies pass OMRI regulations if its not TRUE organics?? or is TRUE organics something regulated by YOU....


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## Matt Rize (Feb 2, 2011)

coolupdscene said:


> dude, canna will make amazing plants but it is still bottled...and mined...so its not really part of the holy grail of TRUE organics. Most ppl wanna think that just cause it has the carbon lifeforms present that that is what makes organic...it does "scientifically" but not REALLY. Im not trying to bash ur style bro but I preach TRUE organics with compost teas and composted soil using sustainable nutrients and compost matter and NEVER bottled thus the plant is truly ur own brand, not the government brand, figuratively speaking. I personally dont care about "Vegan" organics cause all the best life comes from death neways. We need to start worrying about sustainability rather than the next non-"meat" product we can buy...its about the planet we breathe rather than trying to create our own little bubble of "health" even though the bubble still harms the environment so it wont make u live longer neway...


True organics... this guy needs to be schooled very quickly. Organic means many things. The way I use it refers to OMRI and other organic certifications, which has less to do with carbon than it has to do with lack of synthetics. True soil gardening, what you are actually referencing, is great, but is lacking for the accelerated indoor environment. My intention is to create a simple "store bought" system that is safe for all patients, and is easily certifiable organic. Not everyone wants to, or has the ability, to mix soils and wait for them to "cook". Your attitude will fall on deaf ears here.

As for health, you couldn't be more wrong. Focusing on the environment is key, but that goes with health, not one or the other. If you actually read the thread you would see that I support a hybrid system of growing in a peat based media using compost teas and bottled nutes.

If you think Cannabis is not a neuroprotectant and an antioxidant and much more in terms of relief and healing... you are mistaken. This is about health and growing the best medicine possible. Vegan organics is a huge trend among growers, not because it's cool, but because the results are better.


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## baldhead (Feb 2, 2011)

True organics = do no harm, build humus, use omri listed amendments. 
Basically organics is a stepping stone from chemical ag into something less benign. Using OMRI and certified organic ingredients will address the physical nutrition of the soil but nature has many more secrets. It is easy to go beyond organic and way beyond organic but that involves lots of digging (for the truth) and a major shift in our understanding of how nature truly works.


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## Matt Rize (Feb 2, 2011)

baldhead said:


> True organics = do no harm, build humus, use omri listed amendments.
> Basically organics is a stepping stone from chemical ag into something less benign. Using OMRI and certified organic ingredients will address the physical nutrition of the soil but nature has many more secrets. It is easy to go beyond organic and way beyond organic but that involves lots of digging (for the truth) and a major shift in our understanding of how nature truly works.


You are preaching to the pastor. The secrets of nature and history reveal that "green manure" is superior to animal poop in terms of sustainability and building a long lasting society. The Incas built a society and guano, and are long gone. The Chinese have been using green manure for thousands of years, many do to this day. This isn't a direct correlation, but you know what I am saying. Passing vegetable matter through the gut of mammals is not efficient. You can ferment common wild or farmed plants and feed them directly to your plants. 

Indoor growing is not the same as outdoor. For starters, we pay more to grow, and have to maximize our space. So we start using soilless organic media (peats, coco, and barks). This lets us take advantage of the accelerated wet/dry cycles of soilless organic media, which lets us push CO2, temps, and light levels. We leave true soil behind, and begin hybrid growing, a combo of soilless and soil techniques. This is usually peat or coco based media (fox farm, happy frog, roots ect). Peat is extremely good for hosting microbes, and contains nutrients. We also add nutrients via fertigation solutions. 

Your attempt to define "organic" as "true soil organic" is more appropriate for subcool's subforum. Check him out, he is more your speed. Peace.


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## beeznutz (Feb 3, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Where in Michigan are they opening up a shop if you don't mind? I live in Michigan and would love to have a chat/visit with them, lol.


got to talk with the shop guys today, I guess they opened the shop about a month ago in Monroe - that up uf alley ? it's a Hydrofarm shop, btw...


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## baldhead (Feb 4, 2011)

Peat can be high in protozoa.


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## durbanmistyman (Feb 5, 2011)

hey matt, i know you like the GO line ok, thats what im currently running. my question is the GO CaMg+ is calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate it should raise my ph correct? do i need to put some dolomite lime on the surface of my soil of is it not needed as i think i have lockout due to an acid medium. i have been using lots of beneficial microbes via roots oregonism xl and bmo sped. im is roots organic potting mix. i have mag, cal and nit defs due to lockout i believe


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## Matt Rize (Feb 5, 2011)

durbanmistyman said:


> hey matt, i know you like the GO line ok, thats what im currently running. my question is the GO CaMg+ is calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate it should raise my ph correct? do i need to put some dolomite lime on the surface of my soil of is it not needed as i think i have lockout due to an acid medium. i have been using lots of beneficial microbes via roots oregonism xl and bmo sped. im is roots organic potting mix. i have mag, cal and nit defs due to lockout i believe


those three, N/Ca/Mg are all related to pH, and each other. Kushman uses the GO calmag+, but I use calplex and huvega. If you think you have trouble with too low soil pH, adjust with higher pH solution. 3x what you need to correct for, for at least two waterings. Have you checked the soil pH? If you have distilled water and a pH pen it is fairly easy.


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## coolupdscene (Feb 5, 2011)

ill let morality,the soul of the plant and yield speak for themselves i guess...if u use something that someone else made to care for a life then then u can never really be procreative but just a deficiencey to the earth cause theres no real connection the life doesnt come from your own flesh and bones u just grow "the government brand" which supports all man santos, gmo's hybridization based on cheap productions with as little sustenance as possible aka "laziness" theu not a productive living person thus inneficient


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## coolupdscene (Feb 5, 2011)

SUSTAINABILITY MON! life or death..feed the liquid soluble hydro bottled craze and u feed sickness and death


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## ebflow (Feb 5, 2011)

Looks like we got a bad apple in the bunch....


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## sharpshoota (Feb 5, 2011)

some people just wont give up


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## NightbirdX (Feb 5, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> got to talk with the shop guys today, I guess they opened the shop about a month ago in Monroe - that up uf alley ? it's a Hydrofarm shop, btw...


Ahh ok, I thought it might be an actual Canna shop so that I can go yell at them some of them, actually I should probably go yell at Happy Frog and their soil that makes my life hell...


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## durbanmistyman (Feb 8, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> those three, N/Ca/Mg are all related to pH, and each other. Kushman uses the GO calmag+, but I use calplex and huvega. If you think you have trouble with too low soil pH, adjust with higher pH solution. 3x what you need to correct for, for at least two waterings. Have you checked the soil pH? If you have distilled water and a pH pen it is fairly easy.


got ph pen coming whats a safe organic way to raise solution ph without killing any microbes.


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## RPsmoke420 (Feb 9, 2011)

durbanmistyman said:


> got ph pen coming whats a safe organic way to raise solution ph without killing any microbes.


Earth Juice makes a "natural" pH up and down. 

Safer makes a pH down that is OMRI listed. 

Dolomite lime works as a great pH buffer in the soil. Will try and maintain a 7.0 pH. Could also be used to raise pH if it starts dropping below 7 too far. 

Citric acid can help lower pH. Apple Cider or vinegar would also work.


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## durbanmistyman (Feb 9, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> Earth Juice makes a "natural" pH up and down.
> 
> Safer makes a pH down that is OMRI listed.
> 
> ...


 would it be a wise idea to top dress my plants with crushed dolomite lime? and how much if so?


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## RPsmoke420 (Feb 10, 2011)

durbanmistyman said:


> would it be a wise idea to top dress my plants with crushed dolomite lime? and how much if so?


I have found the best method is to remove the first inch or so of soil, taking care not to damage any roots. Then sprinkle the lime into the pot, nice and evenly at a rate of 1 teaspoon (5 ml) of lime per gallon of soil. Then replace the soil you removed earlier, and saturate the soil good to wash in the lime.

They also make a quick release dolomite lime. This might work better for a top dress. Otherwise I'd think it's better to mix it in some. Also adds some Ca and Mg.


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## XDGreenson80 (Feb 13, 2011)

Matt, awesome thread man. Read, the whole thing and can't understand these haters. This is one mans take on a cleaner, healthier, and better tasting cannabis. I have to admit, the first few pages seemed sketchy, but you actually inspired me to try some of these practices this year. I am sub'd bro!!


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## Matt Rize (Feb 13, 2011)

XDGreenson80 said:


> Matt, awesome thread man. Read, the whole thing and can't understand these haters. This is one mans take on a cleaner, healthier, and better tasting cannabis. I have to admit, the first few pages seemed sketchy, but you actually inspired me to try some of these practices this year. I am sub'd bro!!


Thanks man, I started this thread as soon as I started vegan organic gardening, and was not ready for all the haters. 

I'll try to update this thread more often, but am super busy because I have been hired by medicalmarijuana.com to move my operations there. 

Peace to all.


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## Matt Rize (Feb 13, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> I have found the best method is to remove the first inch or so of soil, taking care not to damage any roots. Then sprinkle the lime into the pot, nice and evenly at a rate of 1 teaspoon (5 ml) of lime per gallon of soil. Then replace the soil you removed earlier, and saturate the soil good to wash in the lime.
> 
> They also make a quick release dolomite lime. This might work better for a top dress. Otherwise I'd think it's better to mix it in some. Also adds some Ca and Mg.


Thanks RP! Spot on!


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## summitoker (Feb 13, 2011)

My ladies have been on a veganic diet for a while now and they are so happy and healthy! I have been way to busy to brew any teas so i have been using the earth nectar/ambrosia combo and the ladies love it. Best of all i have not touched my ph meter in a couple weeks. Ill start getting pics up when 12/12 starts!


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## NightbirdX (Feb 13, 2011)

Happy for the update Matt and good luck in your endeavors, it sounds like you are busy, but it also sounds like fun. 

My grow is also going much better once I cut the soil in half with a soilless medium. Straight Happy Frog was just too much for them. I still am having issues with my plants in flowering, but the plants in veg are getting ridiculous. My 2 Apollo 13 and White Rhino are about the size of the plants I just sent into flowering and are only 2 weeks into veg. I am still tinkering with my dosage levels on my BioCanna line, but I am not burning anymore plants, lol.


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## upthearsenal (Feb 13, 2011)

What breeder is your White Rhine, NightbirdX? or is a clone only...


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## NightbirdX (Feb 13, 2011)

A friend gave us a mother plant that he couldn't keep anymore, and I took cuts from it. I don't know where it came from originally though. He didn't remember as the mother had also been passed to him. He brought some of the final product in a few weeks back and if it wasn't White Rhino, it was from the White line. I would say it is real deal though.


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## upthearsenal (Feb 13, 2011)

Nice, I want to try Medicine Man which is essentially White Rhino.

Anyways, my Cough yellowed up like crazy mid flower, and I think I'm going to continue using a mixture of Flores and Vega, I was reading one of Uncle Bens threads and he talked about using N till the end, at least for some strains that need it


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## NightbirdX (Feb 13, 2011)

They are supposed to be starting to yellow up during the second half right? lol. I am going to be doing a gradual introduction of Flores. Basically this is the first week of flower and I am going 4ml of Vega, next week will be 3 vega/1 flores, then 2 vega/2 flores, 1 vega/3 flores, then into 4+ml and up of the flores and then introducing the BioBoost. 

My White Rhinos are kinda puzzling me. I read somewhere that they like a heavy feeding regimen and mine were quite limp and the stems were deep purple, so I doubled the feeding from 4ml Vega to 8ml of Vega and went with 4ml Cannazyme and 4 of Rhizotonic. The purple stems are going away, but they are still looking limp, but took the nutrient boost really well. But they are still going limp in the evenings. Not sure what is up with that. It grows real big, but can be really fickle some times.


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## Matt Rize (Feb 13, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> They are supposed to be starting to yellow up during the second half right? lol. I am going to be doing a gradual introduction of Flores. Basically this is the first week of flower and I am going 4ml of Vega, next week will be 3 vega/1 flores, then 2 vega/2 flores, 1 vega/3 flores, then into 4+ml and up of the flores and then introducing the BioBoost.
> 
> My White Rhinos are kinda puzzling me. I read somewhere that they like a heavy feeding regimen and mine were quite limp and the stems were deep purple, so I doubled the feeding from 4ml Vega to 8ml of Vega and went with 4ml Cannazyme and 4 of Rhizotonic. The purple stems are going away, but they are still looking limp, but took the nutrient boost really well. But they are still going limp in the evenings. Not sure what is up with that. It grows real big, but can be really fickle some times.


Sounds like low pH in your soil. Peat + biocanna (any organic) nutes = acidic. Try watering with a 7.0 pH and the purple should go away.


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## Matt Rize (Feb 13, 2011)

Simple Tea from MM:



> 1 gallon = 16 cups = 256 tablespoons
> 
> 2.38% by volume compost or vermicompost (EWC) per gallon = .38 cups or around half a cup max or about 2 cups in 5 gallons max.
> 
> ...


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## upthearsenal (Feb 13, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> They are supposed to be starting to yellow up during the second half right? lol. I am going to be doing a gradual introduction of Flores. Basically this is the first week of flower and I am going 4ml of Vega, next week will be 3 vega/1 flores, then 2 vega/2 flores, 1 vega/3 flores, then into 4+ml and up of the flores and then introducing the BioBoost.
> 
> My White Rhinos are kinda puzzling me. I read somewhere that they like a heavy feeding regimen and mine were quite limp and the stems were deep purple, so I doubled the feeding from 4ml Vega to 8ml of Vega and went with 4ml Cannazyme and 4 of Rhizotonic. The purple stems are going away, but they are still looking limp, but took the nutrient boost really well. But they are still going limp in the evenings. Not sure what is up with that. It grows real big, but can be really fickle some times.


 Maybe towards the end of the second half, but not five weeks in, at least IMO. I'd recommend checking out Uncle Ben's threads, you can find them in the Advanced Cultivation section. Here's a little excerpt from one of the threads: "*Foliage production - Grow for the most amount of foliage you can going into the flowering response. Maintain those leaves in a green and healthy condition up until harvest, even if it means switching fertilizer to a high N value, like a 9-3-6. "*

I don't plan on keepin' em green UNTIL harvest, but at least till the last couple weeks, maybe the last ten days. I lost a lot of leafs due to N def, and I can clearly see how this is going to affect my yield. I've never ever followed any kind of feeding schedule, and now that I am I feel like it isn't working for me (or at least a couple of my strains), and I should just stick to reading what my plants need to keep them green.

My Cat. Kush used to go limp in the evenings, and I figured it might have been because of the temp flux from day to night... However I'm not sure, it was weird though.


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## NightbirdX (Feb 13, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Sounds like low pH in your soil. Peat + biocanna (any organic) nutes = acidic. Try watering with a 7.0 pH and the purple should go away.


I will keep that in mind Matt. I heard that White Rhino is a heavy eater and have upped my dosages in my feeding schedule. The purpling has lessened quite a bit in one day and I will be sure to check that again tomorrow. 

I was under the assumption that you do not have to pH your water when using the BioCanna line. Should I not believe that? I have checked it a few times and it has been in the pH 6 range after nutrients are added. It is just the White Rhino's also. The other plants are doing alright on the same dosages. I'll just have to tinker with it. Would an off pH cause the plants to wilt in the evening and look good in the mornings?


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## NightbirdX (Feb 13, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Maybe towards the end of the second half, but not five weeks in, at least IMO. I'd recommend checking out Uncle Ben's threads, you can find them in the Advanced Cultivation section. Here's a little excerpt from one of the threads: "*Foliage production - Grow for the most amount of foliage you can going into the flowering response. Maintain those leaves in a green and healthy condition up until harvest, even if it means switching fertilizer to a high N value, like a 9-3-6. "*
> 
> I don't plan on keepin' em green UNTIL harvest, but at least till the last couple weeks, maybe the last ten days. I lost a lot of leafs due to N def, and I can clearly see how this is going to affect my yield. I've never ever followed any kind of feeding schedule, and now that I am I feel like it isn't working for me (or at least a couple of my strains), and I should just stick to reading what my plants need to keep them green.
> 
> My Cat. Kush used to go limp in the evenings, and I figured it might have been because of the temp flux from day to night... However I'm not sure, it was weird though.


Ya I must have misread that. I thought you meant that you were later into the harvest. Our plants that we are using Fox Farms on are just getting their flush and are starting to yellow up and some of them are even purpling and turning red. It's pretty cool. 

I don't really go by the schedule either. I am slowly increasing so that I will be going by the schedule, but after my burn issues, I am very skittish. My plants are now taking 8ml Vega, 5ml Cannazyme and 5ml Rhizotonic. I am trying to be brave and raise it and watch how my plants respond and they are doing so beautifully. 

I'm just nervous about adding in full doses of Rhizotonic and Cannazym. Someone suggested that since the only constant that hasn't changed in my other plants was the Cannazym and Rhizo dosage levels and I was still getting burn, the problem may stem from the Rhizo and 'zym. I cut back to 1/3- 1/2 dosage on those and they are doing great. I figured that the Rhizo and 'zym were important, but feeding the plants was more important so I cut back the supplements and upped the Vega. The plants are doing fine except for the limpness in the evening. Things thus far are going much better than the first grow though with the BioCanna line.


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## coolupdscene (Feb 14, 2011)

about that tea matt...there are differrent kinds of molasses and we want to make sure we are using UNSULPHURED molasses...also blackstrap is the best for nutrient quantity i use 1tbsp per gallon in my flowering but also brehr rabbit is lower in nutrient qality so its good for veg cause u still get the same amt. of carbohydrates(sugars) as blackstrap but u dont have to lower your dosage (still 1tbsp pergallon) for smaller plants while ur still providing carbs for the microherd but not too much nutes for the plant...I mean i use a lower NPK ratio for veg 8-4-1(grows like some jack and the beanstalk shit, super thick and fat,growing so fast it almost scares me) dry soil mix in the soil so the lower amt. of potassium in brehr molasses is a better balance to this while in flowering i switch to having the nutes in the tea so blackstrap is a better NPK balance for this. Ive generally figured that based on waht the bottles say Blackstrap is about 3-4% potassium while Brehr is 1-2% potassium.


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## RPsmoke420 (Feb 16, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Maybe towards the end of the second half, but not five weeks in, at least IMO. I'd recommend checking out Uncle Ben's threads, you can find them in the Advanced Cultivation section. Here's a little excerpt from one of the threads: "*Foliage production - Grow for the most amount of foliage you can going into the flowering response. Maintain those leaves in a green and healthy condition up until harvest, even if it means switching fertilizer to a high N value, like a 9-3-6. "*
> 
> I don't plan on keepin' em green UNTIL harvest, but at least till the last couple weeks, maybe the last ten days. I lost a lot of leafs due to N def, and I can clearly see how this is going to affect my yield. I've never ever followed any kind of feeding schedule, and now that I am I feel like it isn't working for me (or at least a couple of my strains), and I should just stick to reading what my plants need to keep them green.
> 
> My Cat. Kush used to go limp in the evenings, and I figured it might have been because of the temp flux from day to night... However I'm not sure, it was weird though.


Great point, and Uncle Ben knows his stuff. 

However, I disagree with how "green" you want your plant. IMO, it is better to have the plant go through her "fall colors" near harvest. I prefer the smoke at least. I have also read some interesting studies on high N fertilizer in flower, and low THC content (hemp production). In Hemp, that would be a good thing. I'll see if I can pull up the pdf. I know I have it somewhere. 

So, I think it is a delicate balance between too much, and too little. Like you said, I have cut back too soon, and felt I lost some yield. 

I wonder if a silicate additive would help with the limp plants? Not sure... but it'd be fun to play with. Suppose to "strengthen the cell walls". 



NightbirdX said:


> I will keep that in mind Matt. I heard that White Rhino is a heavy eater and have upped my dosages in my feeding schedule. The purpling has lessened quite a bit in one day and I will be sure to check that again tomorrow.
> 
> I was under the assumption that you do not have to pH your water when using the BioCanna line. Should I not believe that? I have checked it a few times and it has been in the pH 6 range after nutrients are added. It is just the White Rhino's also. The other plants are doing alright on the same dosages. I'll just have to tinker with it. Would an off pH cause the plants to wilt in the evening and look good in the mornings?


generally, after mixing everything my pH is about perfect and I don't have to adjust. But I would still recommend checking it. Just to know. 



coolupdscene said:


> about that tea matt...there are differrent kinds of molasses and we want to make sure we are using UNSULPHURED molasses...also blackstrap is the best for nutrient quantity i use 1tbsp per gallon in my flowering but also brehr rabbit is lower in nutrient qality so its good for veg cause u still get the same amt. of carbohydrates(sugars) as blackstrap but u dont have to lower your dosage (still 1tbsp pergallon) for smaller plants while ur still providing carbs for the microherd but not too much nutes for the plant...I mean i use a lower NPK ratio for veg 8-4-1(grows like some jack and the beanstalk shit, super thick and fat,growing so fast it almost scares me) dry soil mix in the soil so the lower amt. of potassium in brehr molasses is a better balance to this while in flowering i switch to having the nutes in the tea so blackstrap is a better NPK balance for this. Ive generally figured that based on waht the bottles say Blackstrap is about 3-4% potassium while Brehr is 1-2% potassium.


Interesting info. I've always just rocked the unsulphered black strap. I've also used Grandma's Original unsulphered in the past. Also helps to neutralize chlorine and cholromines in the water.


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## beeznutz (Feb 16, 2011)

I'm having a yellowing and burn of leaves right now and I'm just about a month in flowering.... I think there are a few things going on, probably nute burn being one of them- just flushed em last night, when should I give them food again? ppm was at 800 for about a week then gave them 900 4 days ago *after* doing a flush thinking they are N deficient, dunno if that was the right thing to do cause leaves are turning yellow from outside tips and edges inward and I'm also getting the tips/edges turning brown, everything is freaking me out but the weird thing the buds r getting huge and smell good and all the leaves r pointing (not curling ) up so no drooping....
Never checked ph anymore. in fact I broke my meter so never got anotha.... but my understanding is that with organics (I'm using General Organics) u don't need as nutes are available at a wider range of ph, no?
...interesting point about Uncle Ben talking about using more N even in flowering, maybe I just need to cut on other supplements and find some way to jus add more N? BioThrive Bloom has a ratio of 2-4-4.....
btw, I'm growing in hempy buckets with neutral ph perlite....


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## Matt Rize (Feb 16, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> I'm having a yellowing and burn of leaves right now and I'm just about a month in flowering.... I think there are a few things going on, probably nute burn being one of them- just flushed em last night, when should I give them food again? ppm was at 800 for about a week then gave them 900 4 days ago *after* doing a flush thinking they are N deficient, dunno if that was the right thing to do cause leaves are turning yellow from outside tips and edges inward and I'm also getting the tips/edges turning brown, everything is freaking me out but the weird thing the buds r getting huge and smell good and all the leaves r pointing (not curling ) up so no drooping....
> Never checked ph anymore. in fact I broke my meter so never got anotha.... but my understanding is that with organics (I'm using General Organics) u don't need as nutes are available at a wider range of ph, no?
> ...interesting point about Uncle Ben talking about using more N even in flowering, maybe I just need to cut on other supplements and find some way to jus add more N? BioThrive Bloom has a ratio of 2-4-4.....
> btw, I'm growing in hempy buckets with neutral ph perlite....


900ppm is very high. I usually stay between 400 and 700, but I grow in a peat media called bioterra plus, and as the media breaks down it releases nutrients. They sound overwatered and overfed, search for affects of overwatering and you will see yellowing on the leaf margins.


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## beeznutz (Feb 16, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> 900ppm is very high. I usually stay between 400 and 700, but I grow in a peat media called bioterra plus, and as the media breaks down it releases nutrients. They sound overwatered and overfed, search for affects of overwatering and you will see yellowing on the leaf margins.


its what i figured jus....a bit late 
damn it, lost my notes for the last crop although that was in soil, i wonder how much difference that makes.
so you keep it that low, a month in flowering? how hi do u take it? what was ur ppm before u switched to 12/12
and do u drop it after switching then bring it back up?
looked up biocanna but couldn't find ANY info on their site, no nute ratio or ingredients- what's up with that? 
GO is the same.....why can't we have the info available on first sight? that seems so basic, OMRI or not....


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## beeznutz (Feb 16, 2011)

anotha thing Matt, do u share the same feelings as far as the 'no ph adjustment' goes?


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## Matt Rize (Feb 16, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> its what i figured jus....a bit late
> damn it, lost my notes for the last crop although that was in soil, i wonder how much difference that makes.
> so you keep it that low, a month in flowering? how hi do u take it? what was ur ppm before u switched to 12/12
> and do u drop it after switching then bring it back up?
> ...


These nute companies are scoundrels. If their damn stuff didn't work so well I sure wouldn't use it. I top out ppm around 700. Then start going back down about 4 weeks into flower, growing for quality not yield. Also in organics not everything is going to register on your ppm pen, only a percent, like 80% but that just a guess and depends on your nutes. There is very little "green" left in my leaves at harvest. The last couple weeks are just sucanant and seaweed.

I pH everything all the time, especially my foliar solutions. pH is really important (so is water alkalinity, especially for hydro), and even if you are not adjusting your pH, watching it give you valuable info. The pH scale is exponential, meaning the different between 6.0 and 6.1 is small, but the difference between 6.0 and 6.5 is huge. Say the difference between 6.0 and 6.1 is "x". The difference between 6.0 and 6.5 is "x" to the fifth power.

I apologize for the short answers, I'm trying to build some threads over at medicalmarijuana.com. They gave me my own sub forum and made me mod 

post edit: using peat and organic nutes will mean your soil pH drops over time. I adjust my nute solution pH up in flower to combat this. Up to 7.0 sometimes. This keeps the stems green.


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## beeznutz (Feb 16, 2011)

no prb Matt- apreciate ur input no matter how short....
can't wait to c whatcha got goin on over @medicalmarijuana...


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## first be (Feb 17, 2011)

IMO, it is better to have the plant go through her "fall colors" near harvest. I prefer the smoke at least. I have also read some interesting studies on high N fertilizer in flower, and low THC content (hemp production). In Hemp, that would be a good thing.


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## RPsmoke420 (Feb 17, 2011)

first be said:


> IMO, it is better to have the plant go through her "fall colors" near harvest. I prefer the smoke at least. I have also read some interesting studies on high N fertilizer in flower, and low THC content (hemp production). In Hemp, that would be a good thing.


Sorry... was only able to dig up one bookmarked article on the subject though. Couldn't find the pdf file on it. Maybe on another computer, not sure. Anyway, check it out. 



> These experiments show that the THC content of leaves decreases with increasing N doses. This phenomenon is favorable for agricultural production, because nitrogen fertilization will increase stem yield and simultaneously decrease THC content of the plant significantly. Additional studies are necessary to determine optimal N dose/ha, time of application, fertilizer type and the lowest THC content achievable under field conditions.


http://druglibrary.net/olsen/HEMP/IHA/jiha4207.html


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## summitoker (Feb 22, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I pH everything all the time, especially my foliar solutions. pH is really important (so is water alkalinity, especially for hydro), and even if you are not adjusting your pH, watching it give you valuable info. The pH scale is exponential, meaning the different between 6.0 and 6.1 is small, but the difference between 6.0 and 6.5 is huge. Say the difference between 6.0 and 6.1 is "x". The difference between 6.0 and 6.5 is "x" to the fifth power.


So what PH do you mix your nutes to?


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## Matt Rize (Feb 22, 2011)

summitoker said:


> So what PH do you mix your nutes to?


start out lower, 6.3, move up to 6.5 by late veg, sometimes up over that in flower. the nute availability changes with pH, and the plants nute requirements change with life cycle.

the roots are exuding weak organic acids, all my nutes are organic acids, and my water is high pH. but i still find using target pH (especially with molasses) is a lil too low for the whole cycle. When the stems start going purple I let the pH rize up a little. 

that molasses, i tell you what, is very acidic and stable. it also neutralizes the chloramines and chlorine, good stuff. i use about 5mL per reservoir and let it bubble for 5 minutes before adding my nutes supplements.

What I am using right now:
BioCanna Vega, 
Canna: rhizo, zyme
Bioag humic, fulvic
Organicare calplex and huvega (Ca and Mg)
Mineral Matrix for other micros (couple drops per res, literally)
Technaflora seaweed

All at about 1/4 strength, with teas every fourth watering instead of food 

Tea is alaskan 1/2cup humisoil, 1/2 cup homemade compost, 2 tbs molasses, 1 tsp yucca extract per gallon: bubble 24 hours, dilute 1:20. foliar and top feed

Foliar is Ful-power from bio-ag with calplex and huvega and wet betty

Ill be using the bioboost and flores soon come.

oh yeah, mucho NEEM, rotate eisnstien, dynagro and azamax, not effing around anymore!


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## Wolverine97 (Feb 23, 2011)

No point to my post, just didn't like seeing 666 replies.


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## beeznutz (Feb 23, 2011)

anybody knows anything about these guys?

http://www.westbridge.com/products-organic.html

looks kosher, omri, and a large selection of micro and supps......


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## Matt Rize (Feb 23, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> anybody knows anything about these guys?
> 
> http://www.westbridge.com/products-organic.html
> 
> looks kosher, omri, and a large selection of micro and supps......


kushman was using the Nitrogen formula from them. I never have. They do look interesting.


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## Matt Rize (Feb 23, 2011)

Matt Rize is singing "so much drama(trouble) in the world":

So... discovery channel is filming for some kind of norcal medical marijuana reality type show, I don't really know much. They came up to film kk and he brought the cameraman down to my house. Well, we were hanging out and kk had to say something that pissed me off, and I completely broke him down on camera. kk and I have since had a falling out and I had to step back and let him go his way, although we are still working on a book with my sister. 

Now the tv show folks contacted me about going back on camera to explain what happened. They said I come off as the good guy, but ya know. Not trying to feed the drama or have a camera man follow me around.

That means they want to use the argument on TV, and get cartoonishly animated when I'm bugging out. LOL

Should I go back on to explain what happened that day... and possible since?


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## upthearsenal (Feb 23, 2011)

Why leave it up to them/anyone else to explain what happened


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## Matt Rize (Feb 23, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Why leave it up to them/anyone else to explain what happened


true that. the catch is that we have to work on the book this week with my twin ava rize. wonder twin powers activate! form of...


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## Wolverine97 (Feb 24, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Matt Rize is singing "so much drama(trouble) in the world":
> 
> So... discovery channel is filming for some kind of norcal medical marijuana reality type show, I don't really know much. They came up to film kk and he brought the cameraman down to my house. Well, we were hanging out and kk had to say something that pissed me off, and I completely broke him down on camera. kk and I have since had a falling out and I had to step back and let him go his way, although we are still working on a book with my sister.
> 
> ...


IDK, man. I wouldn't let a TV crew incite something that could come back to bite you in the form of a ruined friendship that can come from publicly bruising someones ego. I'd talk to Kushman in private, and work out a way that you guys can both save face, and explain your views from both sides. I say that without knowing the nature of what was said, I guess I'll find out soon enough though...


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## beeznutz (Feb 24, 2011)

i usually let things cool off, let time heal things ya know? but man, if it's on tape i'd go talk to kushman asap and come down to an agreement and then hit the tv crew with some sort of explanation. seriously, both of you guys are public figures and trying to spread something good on this crazy place.......


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## upthearsenal (Feb 24, 2011)

Well, just stay diplomatic. I would talk to him and let him know how I feel, without letting him know any of my intentions (that's if you don't trust him), and tell him that he won't be able to walk all over me. If he really is the way he is, then just drop him man, seems like a total a-hole. Either way, I don't see how this guy can continue to bullshit something like how much yield a client will get per light without being found out eventually. With that in mind, just stay honest, and the truth should come out.


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## Wolverine97 (Feb 24, 2011)

Good Luck bro


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## sharpshoota (Feb 24, 2011)

damn matt, some pretty harsh words for KK, but if thats how you feel, do what you gotta do. If somebody is biting the hand that feeds them (figure of speech) then F*CK em!!!!!
sometimes people need to go their seperate ways b4 things get even worse....


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## Matt Rize (Feb 24, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> damn matt, some pretty harsh words for KK, but if thats how you feel, do what you gotta do. If somebody is biting the hand that feeds them (figure of speech) then F*CK em!!!!!
> sometimes people need to go their seperate ways b4 things get even worse....


more great advice. thanks all.


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## Stoner.Barbie (Feb 27, 2011)

well you know karma, what comes around goes around. don't worry, he'll get his. mad respect for ya matt.


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## fadahigh (Mar 5, 2011)

Hey, anyone have any experience using fermented fruit extracts in through flower or during the flush phase. Currently getting some mangoes and papaya to juice


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## upthearsenal (Mar 5, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Some tips i've learned along the way (3 vegan runs complete):
> - feed heavy, supplementation will be needed for advanced gardeners
> - brew microbe teas, low NPK so no worries
> - feed microbes, in the brewer and in the soil.
> ...


Are you thoughts still that bb cuts flowering time? I really don't know, or can't tell, what the bb has done...


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## Matt Rize (Mar 5, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Are you thoughts still that bb cuts flowering time? I really don't know, or can't tell, what the bb has done...


from my research, the Bioboost is ooligosacharride based, and this triggers stress signals in the plant without actually stressing them. The stress is supposed to increase resin production. I think I was growing a jack hybrid that flowered faster than I had anticipated...


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## Matt Rize (Mar 5, 2011)

fadahigh said:


> Hey, anyone have any experience using fermented fruit extracts in through flower or during the flush phase. Currently getting some mangoes and papaya to juice


I have not. I would use only water at the end, you might end up with a harsher smoke than intended.


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## upthearsenal (Mar 6, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> from my research, the Bioboost is ooligosacharride based, and this triggers stress signals in the plant without actually stressing them. The stress is supposed to increase resin production. I think I was growing a jack hybrid that flowered faster than I had anticipated...


Interesting... I guess I need to do some more research on ooligosachqyerinvxde.


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## Matt Rize (Mar 6, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Interesting... I guess I need to do some more research on ooligosachqyerinvxde.


HA! I'm getting lazy... where's spell check when ya need it?


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## ebflow (Mar 6, 2011)

Hey had a question about how much is recommended per gallon with the Technaflora Soluble seaweed? also the feed schedule for it. Anyone had any issues with the the high PK?


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## Stoner.Barbie (Mar 7, 2011)

fadahigh said:


> Hey, anyone have any experience using fermented fruit extracts in through flower or during the flush phase. Currently getting some mangoes and papaya to juice


you can add some sugar (1 1/2 cup) and some yeast (1 packet dry active yeast), put it all in a gallon milk jug fill up with warm water 1/2 way and put the lid on it. (poke small hole in lid) make wine and give your plants co2 at the same time.


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## RPsmoke420 (Mar 7, 2011)

ebflow said:


> Hey had a question about how much is recommended per gallon with the Technaflora Soluble seaweed? also the feed schedule for it. Anyone had any issues with the the high PK?


I normally use 1/8 - 1/4 tsp per TWO gallons. A tiny amount, stuff lasts forever. 

The more I think about it, the more I believe the seaweed extract is really more about providing more micro-nutrients that many bottled, cannabis-marketed type fertilizers lack. I think may be why kelp foliar sprays seem to work so well, and have such an "instant" response from the plant. I think the kelp is providing essential micro's that are sometimes overlooked.


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## Matt Rize (Mar 7, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> I normally use 1/8 - 1/4 tsp per TWO gallons. A tiny amount, stuff lasts forever.
> 
> The more I think about it, the more I believe the seaweed extract is really more about providing more micro-nutrients that many bottled, cannabis-marketed type fertilizers lack. I think may be why kelp foliar sprays seem to work so well, and have such an "instant" response from the plant. I think the kelp is providing essential micro's that are sometimes overlooked.


K+++ RP! Agreed


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 8, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> I normally use 1/8 - 1/4 tsp per TWO gallons. A tiny amount, stuff lasts forever.
> 
> The more I think about it, the more I believe the seaweed extract is really more about providing more micro-nutrients that many bottled, cannabis-marketed type fertilizers lack. I think may be why kelp foliar sprays seem to work so well, and have such an "instant" response from the plant. I think the kelp is providing essential micro's that are sometimes overlooked.


Not just micro's, but hormones are the real benefit to kelp/seaweed concentrates.


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## RPsmoke420 (Mar 8, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Not just micro's, but hormones are the real benefit to kelp/seaweed concentrates.


Great point. I kinda skipped over that, figuring it would start a "prove it" BS thread. Not here to argue, just share what I understand. 

I would say the biggest benefits are:

prevents common micronutrient deficiencies

Good quality kelp extracts are full of bioactive growth co-factors and often contain significant levels of potassium and a full spectrum of micronutrients including zinc and iron. In natural conditions the growth rate of kelp is prolific, so a lot of the good stuff that helps grow so quickly and vigorously can be made available to your favorite plants.

A lot of the vitamins, amino acids, nutrients and hormones that naturally occur are in a soluble and plant available form in premium quality kelp extracts. Even lesser quality kelp extracts will contain some 
levels of these. However, a lot of the difference between premium quality and lesser quality kelp extracts is in what you are not getting

^^ written by Erik Biska, and a note I had bookmarked. 

He then later notes:
"Plants that have received kelp in their diets also tend to show better colorations; purple basil is an excellent example of this."

Found that part interesting. 

I try and use cold water extracted vs. chemically extracted. Also, some "cheaper" kelp product can be high in sodium...


----------



## Wolverine97 (Mar 8, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> Great point. I kinda skipped over that, figuring it would start a "prove it" BS thread. Not here to argue, just share what I understand.
> 
> I would say the biggest benefits are:
> 
> ...


Yeppers, and I only use cold processed.


----------



## summitoker (Mar 14, 2011)

6k watts 42 ladies 100% Vegan, all for a local dispencary. About to add 4k more watts.......


----------



## zels420 (Mar 18, 2011)

Just to let you know Matt I will be giving up on A N and try n a full 100% vegan run. Thanks for all the info Matt your the man!!


----------



## zels420 (Mar 25, 2011)

So were can you buy Bio Terra Professional Plus @


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 25, 2011)

zels420 said:


> So were can you buy Bio Terra Professional Plus @


The Netherlands.


----------



## zels420 (Mar 25, 2011)

That sucks


----------



## dooley1 (Mar 25, 2011)

you can order bio terra plus too...usually has a shit load of gnats in it though...


----------



## Wolverine97 (Mar 25, 2011)

dooley1 said:


> you can order bio terra plus too...usually has a shit load of gnats in it though...


Not in the US you can't. They won't let it through customs.


----------



## Wolverine97 (Mar 25, 2011)

tank enterprises said:


> check out the LED's at aliengrow.com -- pretty sick


Those are only 1watt diodes.


----------



## Wolverine97 (Mar 25, 2011)

tank enterprises said:


> whats wrong with that? 1W diodes are much more efficient that 2W/3W diodes-- so you actually get the wattage you pay for.
> 
> 2W diodes only emit about 1.8W / 3W only about 2.5
> 
> If your worried about penetration-- don't you can keep the LED's much closer to your plants than traditional lighting


Yeah, if you're growing popsicle sticks.


----------



## Matt Rize (Mar 25, 2011)

zels420 said:


> So were can you buy Bio Terra Professional Plus @


try texashydroponics.com


----------



## Wolverine97 (Mar 26, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> try texashydroponics.com


Good find Matt, I've been told repeatedly by several local hydro shops that you cannot get this stuff over here. Glad to be proven wrong.


----------



## Matt Rize (Mar 26, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Good find Matt, I've been told repeatedly by several local hydro shops that you cannot get this stuff over here. Glad to be proven wrong.


Hey, thank the RIU community, because one of you guys told me about it! I don't know how they get it, but they had it last time I checked.


----------



## Wolverine97 (Mar 26, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Hey, thank the RIU community, because one of you guys told me about it! I don't know how they get it, but they had it last time I checked.


If the shipping wasn't more than the damn soil I'd try some...


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## Matt Rize (Mar 26, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> If the shipping wasn't more than the damn soil I'd try some...


I bit that bullet and paid to ship a palette. F*ck that was expensive. I should've just stuck with FFOF and Happy Frog...


----------



## upthearsenal (Mar 26, 2011)

At txh they told me they would send me 6 bags or more on a palette for $10 a bag for shipping, is that what you got? Seems almost reasonable to me if you really want the particular soil.


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## Matt Rize (Mar 26, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> At txh they told me they would send me 6 bags or more on a palette for $10 a bag for shipping, is that what you got? Seems almost reasonable to me if you really want the particular soil.


Yeah, that was what they charged. But in my case that only sent it to the closest spot for them in the state, I had to rent a truck and go get my dirt from the south bay. Pain in the butt. But now I got it... it's great except the damn gnats.

Here is my lineup as of recent:
BioTerra Plus, grade 3 perlite (big size), compost (vegan made by me), VAM (Bioag inoculant)

BioCanna: Vega, Flores, BioBoost
Canna: Cannazym
Hygrozyme
Bioag: Humic, Seaweed w micros and humic, Humic TM7, Ful-Power (fulvic foliar)
Molasses (K, Ca, Fe, Sugars)
Aloe Vera Juice (Ca, Mg, Sugars, Saponins)
Humboldt Nutes 0-10-0
Organicare Calplex (Ca) for soil, and Huvega (Mg) for foliar.
Technaflora seaweed, man this jar is going to last forever, especially because I switch between this and BioAg's seaweed.
Yup... I'm using some chemyzyme, I mean cannazyme, gotta use it cause I bought it... I plan on using some ProTek potassium silicate (not organic) in veg in the future as well, with my foliar. I think this will help with PM, always an issue here in grape country.

Also: neem and sulfur. Now I'm three weeks in to flower and if I have to I'll use serenade as spot treatment. No more oils or sulfur.


----------



## Wolverine97 (Mar 26, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I bit that bullet and paid to ship a palette. F*ck that was expensive. I should've just stuck with FFOF and Happy Frog...


Yeah man, for sure. Currently I'm trying Roots Organic mixed 50/50 with Ocean Forest, then I amend that with extra perlite, Ancient Forest, castings, guano, lime, azomite, and some bennies. Put it all in five gallon Smart Pots, *BAM*, the future of rock & roll. I'm also playing around with Xtreme Gardening Azos this time around, we'll see how that fares.


----------



## dooley1 (Mar 26, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Not in the US you can't. They won't let it through customs.


 yes you can..there are places in the usa that have them.. ive seen people get them delivered with my own eyes 

http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/itemdesc.asp?ic=GMCABTPB5&eq=&Tp=

http://waytogrow.net/store/product/2666/Bio-Terra-Professional-50-Liters/

im tellin you though..both times my friends got them.. they were loaded with gnats..incredible amounts..he just ended up throwing that shit away..sucks in myopinion..i love the nutrients from bio canna though


----------



## Wolverine97 (Mar 26, 2011)

dooley1 said:


> yes you can..there are places in the usa that have them.. ive seen people get them delivered with my own eyes


This has already been established, but thanks though.


----------



## Matt Rize (Mar 26, 2011)

dooley1 said:


> yes you can..there are places in the usa that have them.. ive seen people get them delivered with my own eyes
> 
> http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/itemdesc.asp?ic=GMCABTPB5&eq=&Tp=
> 
> ...


I'm thinking of using my freezer to "sterilize" that bags I have.


----------



## Matt Rize (Mar 26, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Yeah man, for sure. Currently I'm trying Roots Organic mixed 50/50 with Ocean Forest, then I amend that with extra perlite, Ancient Forest, castings, guano, lime, azomite, and some bennies. Put it all in five gallon Smart Pots, *BAM*, the future of rock & roll. I'm also playing around with Xtreme Gardening Azos this time around, we'll see how that fares.


Xtreme gardening products are all the rage here. I don't like the single specie approach, but then again, more diversity of microbes is good so if you aren't getting that specie elsewhere, I could see the benefit. Kushman and Shiloh were testing the Azos last year and didn't find it beneficial.


----------



## Wolverine97 (Mar 27, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I'm thinking of using my freezer to "sterilize" that bags I have.


Will that actually work? My thought was that the fuckers survive the winter somehow in nature, so do they just go dormant? I ask because I'm trying to freeze sterilize my groups' trimmer right now as one person in our group has a spider mite infestation (ugh... this is why I don't like to share) and I'm uber paranoid about the fucking 'borg, man. DO NOT WANT. 

I'd love to find a way to ensure there are no nasties hiding in there before I bring it into my basement.


----------



## Wolverine97 (Mar 27, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Xtreme gardening products are all the rage here. I don't like the single specie approach, but then again, more diversity of microbes is good so if you aren't getting that specie elsewhere, I could see the benefit. Kushman and Shiloh were testing the Azos last year and didn't find it beneficial.


The big benefit that I see with the Xtreme line (I was gifted the entire lineup to test them out) is that they use actual spores, whereas most companies use propagules. My understanding is that spores are far superior when building a colony, as they multiply much faster than the propagules can.


----------



## Apache (Mar 27, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> The big benefit that I see with the Xtreme line (I was gifted the entire lineup to test them out) is that they use actual spores, whereas most companies use propagules. My understanding is that spores are far superior when building a colony, as they multiply much faster than the propagules can.


If you guys are looking for the best Mycorrhizal IMO is MycoGrow&#8482; by Paul Stamets who is a very accomplished mycologist. His MycoGrow is pretty cheap too.


----------



## Digispliff (Mar 28, 2011)

Some Veganic Chem 4. I'm also cheating with the Cannazyme, though.


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## Matt Rize (Mar 28, 2011)

Digispliff said:


> Some Veganic Chem 4. I'm also cheating with the Cannazyme, though.
> 
> View attachment 1518785


 beauty. thanks for posting. any other details you are willing to part with?


----------



## Stoner.Barbie (Mar 28, 2011)

hey guys, whats up? i love the way that this thread reads. its all very informative and would eventually like to go veganic. for now i am organic and i must say the bud is mighty smooth, tasty, and knocks me on my butt. also, i am in a contest at the moment and would apprieciate your votes. if you could click the link below and vote for me that would be souper! many thanks guys.
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/419988-auto-flowers-mortal-combat-competition-2.html


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## zels420 (Mar 28, 2011)

I did they are sold out, so is way to grow



Matt Rize said:


> try texashydroponics.com


----------



## zels420 (Mar 28, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I'm thinking of using my freezer to "sterilize" that bags I have.


Can't you bake in the oven ?


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## Matt Rize (Mar 28, 2011)

zels420 said:


> Can't you bake in the oven ?


yeah, that too. I think cold is safer than fire. I'm not sure this will work, the freezer to kill gnat eggs that is.


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## coonword (Mar 28, 2011)

sounds like a good idea with the freezer i mite have to give it a try! +rep


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## Digispliff (Mar 28, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> beauty. thanks for posting. any other details you are willing to part with?


I'm using a similar recipe to yours. Biocanna Flores, Bio Boost, Rhizotonic, Cannazyme, Huvega, Calplex, Humboldt Honey ES, Great White, and Earthjuice Microblast, in 3 gallons of Sunshine #4 Advanced (Peat, Perlite, and 10% coco) each. All under a single 1000w in a DR150. Here's a canopy pic.



It's actually my first indoor growit's all been outdoor up till now.


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## Matt Rize (Mar 28, 2011)

Digispliff said:


> I'm using a similar recipe to yours. Biocanna Flores, Bio Boost, Rhizotonic, Cannazyme, Huvega, Calplex, Humboldt Honey ES, Great White, and Earthjuice Microblast, in 3 gallons of Sunshine #4 Advanced (Peat, Perlite, and 10% coco) each. All under a single 1000w in a DR150. Here's a canopy pic.


LOL, Killer pic bro! Looks better than mine.


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## Digispliff (Mar 29, 2011)

Yeah, I've had some problems with magnesium deficiency but other than that I'm pretty happy with how they've come along. I'm thinking the magnesium deficiency came from too much K? I lowered the amount of Flores I was using, cut out the Diamond Black and cut back on the molasses and they seem to be happier.


----------



## Matt Rize (Mar 29, 2011)

Digispliff said:


> Yeah, I've had some problems with magnesium deficiency but other than that I'm pretty happy with how they've come along. I'm thinking the magnesium deficiency came from too much K? I lowered the amount of Flores I was using, cut out the Diamond Black and cut back on the molasses and they seem to be happier.


word, great to know. I still run pretty low on nutes. Basically low end of canna charts, no more cannazyme or rhizo now that buds are forming. I'm using the bioboost, with some 0-10-0 from HN and Kelp/humic/micronutes from bioag. Then calplex and huvega at half the low end of suggested. I've having N deficiency on some plants, two and a half weeks from harvest... I ran out of vega and used all flores for a couple waterings, d'oh.


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## Digispliff (Mar 29, 2011)

Should I be mixing my Vega and Flores? I just did as Canna's chart suggested and used Vega for the first two weeks of flower, then switched to Flores. I'm four weeks from finishing and have yet to see a nitrogen deficiency. I was under the impression that, by harvest, you should see a full fledged nitrogen deficiency? Or is this only true outdoors?

I have a bottle of 0-10-0 sitting around from last season's outdoor. Does it go bad quickly? I haven't used it indoors yet, I haven't really seen a need. That Bioag stuff looks like a much more elegant solution than Microblast. I'll have to get some when my bottle of runs out.


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## NightbirdX (Mar 29, 2011)

My first batch of Plants with BioCanna is just finishing up. Mine started showing Nit Def at about day 50 and has been steadily working up my plants. I'm not sure what everyone elses plants are doing, but that's what mine are doing. 

About mixing. I do all Vega in week one, 50/50 mix of Vega and Flores in week 2 and in week 3 of flowering, go to Flores and BioBoost


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## Matt Rize (Mar 29, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> My first batch of Plants with BioCanna is just finishing up. Mine started showing Nit Def at about day 50 and has been steadily working up my plants. I'm not sure what everyone elses plants are doing, but that's what mine are doing.
> 
> About mixing. I do all Vega in week one, 50/50 mix of Vega and Flores in week 2 and in week 3 of flowering, go to Flores and BioBoost


Same here, very close at least. If the yellowing goes too fast I'll use a little more vega and less flores. Are you using any calmag?


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## Matt Rize (Mar 30, 2011)

Hey, Big up RIUers. I went on the radio, Cannabis Cuts with Deejay Wiid. I come on about 1 hour 28 minutes in. 

We talk about: veganics, hash, the forums, and deejay wiid getting in trouble for cheating on his girl. 

I shout out this thread 

You can check it on Deejay Wiid's facebook page, open to the public. 
http://www.facebook.com/people/DeeJay-Wiid/100000839022441

Here's the podcast link:
http://podcasts.piratecatradiocafe.org/CannabisCuts/CannabisCuts-20110329.mp3


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## Stoner.Barbie (Mar 30, 2011)

rock on! i will most def check it out!


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## slink456 (Mar 31, 2011)

ive been reading alot and following you and kushman, i started my own vegan grow and it is not looking as healthy as the one i saw in kushmans video. Ive copied most of your nutes like,mineral matrix, thrivealive b1 green ofcourse, biothrive bloom from GH, cannazyme, canna boost, natures nectar, and i transplanted with the rhizatonic, also have hygrozym which is great stuff. ive brewed a couple of teas during veg stage with some worm castings and seaweed, but since i switched to 12/12 i stopped because im not sure if its okay to mix all these together. so ive just been using natures nectar, mineral matrix, biothrive bloom complimented with calmg, cannazyme everyother watering and hygrozyme once a week, and now since im 3 to 4 weeks into flower im using canna boost. i have kings kush an platinum og an out of 15 plants only half look healthy. my room is perfect temp 75 -78 humidity at 50% an fresh c02 around 1200 every 15 minutes an then exhausted. any suggestions prof? maybe on how to brew my teas ?


----------



## Matt Rize (Mar 31, 2011)

slink456 said:


> ive been reading alot and following you and kushman, i started my own vegan grow and it is not looking as healthy as the one i saw in kushmans video. Ive copied most of your nutes like,mineral matrix, thrivealive b1 green ofcourse, biothrive bloom from GH, cannazyme, canna boost, natures nectar, and i transplanted with the rhizatonic, also have hygrozym which is great stuff. ive brewed a couple of teas during veg stage with some worm castings and seaweed, but since i switched to 12/12 i stopped because im not sure if its okay to mix all these together. so ive just been using natures nectar, mineral matrix, biothrive bloom complimented with calmg, cannazyme everyother watering and hygrozyme once a week, and now since im 3 to 4 weeks into flower im using canna boost. i have kings kush an platinum og an out of 15 plants only half look healthy. my room is perfect temp 75 -78 humidity at 50% an fresh c02 around 1200 every 15 minutes an then exhausted. any suggestions prof? maybe on how to brew my teas ?


I'm not using a lot of that stuff. What do you mean by not looking good? Any pics? Or a description?

Teas are simple. gallon of RO water, scoop of compost (or soil, or vermicompost), tablespoon molasses, teaspoon yucca juice. Bubble vigorously for 18 to 24 hours. Dilute 1:20 with water (bubbled 24+ hours). Every other feeding, tea then food, never together or you may kill the tea.


----------



## slink456 (Mar 31, 2011)

i saw that stuff on kushmans video with the first time grow.ill get some pics up tomorrow but where the flowers are the leaves are curling down and looking quite yellow which im sure is nitrogen, but do you have any suggestions on a good tea mix? can i mix up wormcastings, humic an fulvic acid an seaweed all together ?


----------



## Matt Rize (Mar 31, 2011)

slink456 said:


> i saw that stuff on kushmans video with the first time grow.ill get some pics up tomorrow but where the flowers are the leaves are curling down and looking quite yellow which im sure is nitrogen, but do you have any suggestions on a good tea mix? can i mix up wormcastings, humic an fulvic acid an seaweed all together ?


Gotta make sure you understand what a tea is referring to. An ACT is Active Compost Tea. It's not just some stuff mixed up in water, you must aerate. 


> credit: ctguy, then microbeorganics.com
> It's Tea Time!
> 
> Compost tea has become increasingly popular in the last few years as part of a grower's program. In fact, current world record holder was grown using this technology. I'd like to take this opportunity to discuss different types of compost teas and share some of the knowledge we've gained in the industry over the past 5 years.
> ...


----------



## NightbirdX (Apr 1, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Same here, very close at least. If the yellowing goes too fast I'll use a little more vega and less flores. Are you using any calmag?


I actually added GO CaMg+ to my lineup in veg and it started to burn my plants. I was on the really low end of everything too. 5ml Vega, 2.5ml Cannazym, 2.5ml Rhizo, 2.5 ml Hi Brix Molasses, and 2.5 ml of CaMg. I added pH'd water after 3 days and they started to clear up. I think I am just going to dose them with CaMg before they go into Flowering and am going to alternate every other watering with Cannazyme/Rhizotonic and a lower dose of Vega. Not really sold on those 2. My roots are vigorous and clean though. I think the Cannazyme is the only thing not Veganic about my grow. I heard the CaMg isn't also, but it specifically says on there that it is veganic. I think all the additives I have been putting in are causing all my problems, which is why I am going to just focus on the vega and add in the supplementals at a specific time. 

Something like: 

Veg:
Week 1: 5ml Vega
Week 2: 5ml Vega, 2.5 Cannazyme, 2.5 Rhizo 
Week 3: 7.5ml Vega
Week 4: 5ml Vega, 5ml Molasses, 2.5ml CaMg

Flower:
Week 5: 10 ml Vega
Week 6: 2.5ml Vega, 2.5ml Flores, 5ml Cannazyme, 5ml Rhizotonic
Week 7: 10 ml Flores, 5ml BioBoost
Week 8: 5 ml Flores, 5ml Bio Boost, 5ml CaMg, 5ml Molasses
Week 9-11: 10ml Flores, 10ml BioBoost, 5ml Molasses
Week 12: Continue with Feed or Begin Flush
Week 13: Begin Flush if not started

This is just a rough approximation of what I will do. This is my starting place. I plan on only growing Sour OG in one spot and Jack Herer in another so I will be able to fine tune the feeding on these and see how they react. I also plan on just doing 1 plant according to what the BioCanna feeding chart tells me, to see if things will go down like last time, and I burn the piss out of my plants. Any recommendations anyone?


----------



## NLNo5 (Apr 1, 2011)

Dude, recommend washing your hands after handling plants and soil regardless of the vegan bs.



Matt Rize said:


> Some tips i've learned along the way (3 vegan runs complete):
> - feed heavy, supplementation will be needed for advanced gardeners
> - brew microbe teas, low NPK so no worries
> - feed microbes, in the brewer and in the soil.
> ...


----------



## dwrd (Apr 1, 2011)

Hey Matt, all the information you provided about "veganics" convinced me so I decided to make the switch to veganics for the next round! I have everything I need but soil. Your instructions say to try and use Bt plus soil but I was considering using OMRI certified Black Gold Potting Soil (0.05-0.0-0.0). Do you think this could substitute the BT soil?


----------



## ebflow (Apr 1, 2011)

Black Gold is Great stuff IMO... pretty close to BT really nice an fluffy and works great!!!!


----------



## Matt Rize (Apr 1, 2011)

dwrd said:


> Hey Matt, all the information you provided about "veganics" convinced me so I decided to make the switch to veganics for the next round! I have everything I need but soil. Your instructions say to try and use Bt plus soil but I was considering using OMRI certified Black Gold Potting Soil (0.05-0.0-0.0). Do you think this could substitute the BT soil?


Yes. A true soil, like the black gold should work great. You will want to mix it with something airy, like light warrior, or even just some perlite.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 1, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> I actually added GO CaMg+ to my lineup in veg and it started to burn my plants. I was on the really low end of everything too. 5ml Vega, 2.5ml Cannazym, 2.5ml Rhizo, 2.5 ml Hi Brix Molasses, and 2.5 ml of CaMg. I added pH'd water after 3 days and they started to clear up. I think I am just going to dose them with CaMg before they go into Flowering and am going to alternate every other watering with Cannazyme/Rhizotonic and a lower dose of Vega. Not really sold on those 2. My roots are vigorous and clean though. I think the Cannazyme is the only thing not Veganic about my grow. I heard the CaMg isn't also, but it specifically says on there that it is veganic. I think all the additives I have been putting in are causing all my problems, which is why I am going to just focus on the vega and add in the supplementals at a specific time.
> 
> Something like:
> 
> ...


Hey, great post. I'm actually ditching the cannazyme and rhizo. Neither are organic, although the rhizo isn't too bad. Still usign the hygrozyme. The feed charts are way heavy in my experience. Also, Ive been using Vega way into flower, and adding PK via 0-10-0 (soft rock phos) and kelp. 

Are you doing teas? I've been doing a feed-tea-feed-tea-feed-tea ect thing to help digest all the nutes I pour on.

You may have been overdoing the CalMag. That has chelated Iron, which can burn easily. And you are also providing Cal/Mag via the molasses.


----------



## NightbirdX (Apr 1, 2011)

Thanks for the reply man. I tell you what, I have been eying that Rhizo and Cannazyme. Prob not going to buy it again. I was thinking about going to hygrozyme also. I also supplement some Nitrozyme in a foliar feed. 

I am still working on the teas. That is my next step. I have been having to add just pH water every other week recently to deal with the burn issues. So doing a tea every other week actually sounds like something I might implement on the feedings when I need to back off of the nutes. 

I was going to ween them off the vega at week 4, but I still have a bit of green left in the leaves, so I'm going with cutting it out at week 7. I am going to only be growing Jack Herer and Sour OG exclusively for the time being, so I will really be able to fine tune the feedings for the plants. 

Thanks for the tip about the Molasses and CaMg, you prob saved me a bunch of time trouble shooting.


----------



## dwrd (Apr 1, 2011)

Ok Thanks. Sorry man but I have another question. I'm using a compost tea or (ACT) and it calls for 1/2 quart of compost and a 1/4 cup of activator per gallon of water! In your ACT example you said to use a scoop of compost, a tablespoon of molasses, a teaspoon of yucca. Also in the "It's Tea Time" article it said 2 cups of compost max for five gallons. So my question is do you think I'm adding to much compost and activator to my brewer?


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## Matt Rize (Apr 1, 2011)

dwrd said:


> Ok Thanks. Sorry man but I have another question. I'm using a compost tea or (ACT) and it calls for 1/2 quart of compost and a 1/4 cup of activator per gallon of water! In your ACT example you said to use a scoop of compost, a tablespoon of molasses, a teaspoon of yucca. Also in the "It's Tea Time" article it said 2 cups of compost max for five gallons. So my question is do you think I'm adding to much compost and activator to my brewer?


That sounds like too much ingredients to me. I'm not really the pro on this topic (no microscope). But the recipe I listed is from a pro. 
www.microbeorganics.com. This guy, Mr. Tim Wilson, knows his compost teas and then some. He actually has a patent on his methods.


post edit: warning, the trolls may be headed this way. just another day in the life of matt rize. RIZE UP RIU!!!

and welcome to CT Guy if he is reading this. He should be able to tell you way more than I about teas.


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## 711grower (Apr 4, 2011)

i love love love teas. i have converted to nothing but teas after using 800 worth of a AN nutes. i use a complex blend of bacterias and fungi. aqua shield by botinicare, mykos wp by rti, hygozyme, quantum light, roots oregonsim, and a product called biota max that has alot of trichoderma, nitrogen fixing bacteria, and pro biotics. i have also just started innoculating my teas with another product called genesis compound by progress earth. its some type of super humus. i find that each of these things has something more dominant then the other. i add worm castings, alaska humus, liquid sea weed, and some guano from time to time. mostly corn syrup to feed the benis. it seems like alot but i am spending far less then using some cannabis specific line up. this is my first grow with all teas and so far i am more then impressed. im only in to week 1 of flowing but my ladys look gracious. i am no expert by any means. i know this thread is about vegan growing and i do use some poops but i wanted to share my experience thus far with teas. love them....


----------



## Matt Rize (Apr 4, 2011)

711grower said:


> i love love love teas. i have converted to nothing but teas after using 800 worth of a AN nutes. i use a complex blend of bacterias and fungi. aqua shield by botinicare, mykos wp by rti, hygozyme, quantum light, roots oregonsim, and a product called biota max that has alot of trichoderma, nitrogen fixing bacteria, and pro biotics. i have also just started innoculating my teas with another product called genesis compound by progress earth. its some type of super humus. i find that each of these things has something more dominant then the other. i add worm castings, alaska humus, liquid sea weed, and some guano from time to time. mostly corn syrup to feed the benis. it seems like alot but i am spending far less then using some cannabis specific line up. this is my first grow with all teas and so far i am more then impressed. im only in to week 1 of flowing but my ladys look gracious. i am no expert by any means. i know this thread is about vegan growing and i do use some poops but i wanted to share my experience thus far with teas. love them....


great post! there is a bunch of stuff in there that I have to google. Corn syrup? I have to look that one up too! And to be honest, my potting mix has some poo in it, I'm no purist, nor a real vegan. I just noticed the less poo I use, the more I like to smoke my herb. This is something I've been experimenting with for over a decade, starting with just kelps and sea animals, then no sea animals. I still use a little animal because it's in all the potting mixes.


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## 711grower (Apr 4, 2011)

yes corn syrup. its a fairly simple sugar to feed the micros. i am feeding light teas with every water. i have found that to much mollasses can actualy stunt growth thus i only use it once a week. mollases has alot of nutrients in it. corn syrup is just a carbohydrate source for the benis. i was using honey but it was starting to cost a fortune and i noticed no difference when switching to corn syrup. i am way to early into flower to see if this regimine is working but so far everything is super healthy. the medium i am using is 3 parts hp pro mix, 1 part roots organic soil, 1.5 parts perlite, a splash of lime and a few cups of earth worm castings. i recently got some clones that went into shock real bad and i honestly believe the teas saved there lives. heres a pick of the recent start of flowering
View attachment 2011-04-04 23.19.05.jpg


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## S.V.T. (Apr 4, 2011)

here's what I run. I use a diluted mix of the following and I feed almost every time. 
This formula is mostly vegan, i think. I use a small boy water filter and I never ph.

veg: camg+, hygrozyme, b1 green, aquashield, mineral matrix, bio vega

bloom 1-2: camg+, hygrozyme, aquashield, b1 green, mineral matrix, bio vega
bloom 3: bio boost, camg+, hygrozyme, aquashield, b1 green, mineral matrix, bio vega, synergy
bloom 4-8: bio boost, camg+, hygrozyme, aquashield, b1 green, guano 0-2-0, soluble seaweed, mineral matrix, bio flores, synergy
bloom 9: one day flush with bio boost, molasses


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## Digispliff (Apr 5, 2011)

Here's some more veganic Chem 4, now on day 50. It's getting Flores, Bio Boost, molasses, Huvega, Calplex, Earthjuice Microblast, and occasional Great White. 

S.V.T., you run B-1 through the entire cycle? I've only ever used it for new transplants. Do you think it makes a difference in flowering? I've got some I could use...


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## S.V.T. (Apr 5, 2011)

Digispliff
Yes, I use b-1 through the entire cycle. 

veg: 1-mL/gal

bloom:
week 1-3: 1-mL/gal
week 4-7: 3-mL/gal
week 8: 1-mL/gal

I think it makes a difference. I use B1, organa guano 0-2-0 at 5-mL/gal, and technaflora soluble seaweed at 4-grams/gal in weeks 4-7 as a boost. It works very well. I only use the seaweed a couple times. I noticed it complements the bio-boost nicely.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 5, 2011)

SVT if you could tell me how much you are using with each watering, I would appreciate it. I have been trying to balance out all the stuff I use and have been having a hard time. 

How often are you guys watering and feeding your plants?

On another note, I have begun my first Veganic (mostly) indoor harvest. I would like to thank many of you who have helped me through it and coached and encouraged me. Matt Rize, Upthearsenal, and Wolverine97, many others also, but those were the ones that popped into my head. I harvested 2 AK-47 plants on Saturday. I am hoping to get around 5oz or so. My yield is going to be down a bit because of the problems in the beginning, but the quality is looking to be amazing. I gave my trim and small buds to my buddies to process into Hash Oil and they said that it was the purest and cleanest plant that they have processed into oil and the quality is amazing. I smoke a little bit of the small buds that have been drying for about 3 days and the flavor and smell are completely amazing. Much better than anything else I've grown on other nutrients. I still have a Great White Shark and Headband flushing and finishing for the next week. I can't wait for it to completely dry and to start curing. The GWS and Headband are looking to be even better than the AK. 

Growing Veganically has been a journey and not the easiest at times, but the quality is unsurpassed as far as I'm concerned.


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## S.V.T. (Apr 5, 2011)

How often are you guys watering and feeding your plants?

watering...
I water like this. I hand water with a wand that has a head that air-rates the water. very slowly, never letting water pool. I like to see lots of bubbles on top of the soil. I'll spray each pot with a little water and repeat this until all of the soil is soaked. I do a few rounds on all the plants that are thirsty then let them soak for 15 or 20 then give them some more...etc. After they're soaked I'll let the pot almost completely dry out before watering again. I'll let the soil get pretty dry and water just before the leaves start to suffer. that's how i do it.

I feed depending on the strain. Indicas i tend to feed more often. Usually every watering with the schedule I've been using. Sativas I usually feed every other or every third. It really depends on the strain.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 5, 2011)

S.V.T. said:


> How often are you guys watering and feeding your plants?
> 
> I feed depending on the strain. Indicas i tend to feed more often. Usually every watering with the schedule I've been using. Sativas I usually feed every other or every third. It really depends on the strain.


What are you looking for in your plants to tell you they are ready? Are you looking for yellowing of the leaves or lack of growth?


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## S.V.T. (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm looking at the color of the stems/branches, and the undersides of the leaves. If there's any purple streaking I'm probably going to feed them every time, or two out of three. note-I dilute almost everything I use a lot. If the stems and undersides of leaves are lime green I'll probably be in the feed/water/feed...etc. I tend to feed 70+ day strains every other time.


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## S.V.T. (Apr 5, 2011)

yellowing leads me to believe something's off in my nutrient dosage/schedule.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 5, 2011)

SVT: fuck yeah! thanks for posting up all that great info.


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## S.V.T. (Apr 5, 2011)

Yeah man, I'm glad to. Great thread!


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## NightbirdX (Apr 5, 2011)

So I have been doing some research on mixing my own veganic supersoil and catch a hit off of google and who do I find talking about in on the MedicalMJ forums, but Matt Rize himself, lol. How is that research coming along? Have you guys figured out the alternatives to the Guano, Blood Meal, Fish Meal, and Worm Castings (maybe)?


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## upthearsenal (Apr 5, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Amendments and rating:
> I had to leave out the poops, which are most of the phos sources. Maybe try some EWC/comfrey/alfalfa tea?
> 
> Greensand 0 1.5 7 Mined from old ocean deposits; used as soil conditioner; it holds water and is high in iron, magnesium, and silica - 32 trace minerals in all.
> ...


Good stuff here, don't know about the shells though, I guess it doesn't matter if you're not being picky.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 5, 2011)

S.V.T. said:


> yellowing leads me to believe something's off in my nutrient dosage/schedule.


Generally that's an indication that they aren't processing calcium and iron fast enough to keep up with the rate of growth. It also tends to happen more when the plant is still growing its root system. Once the roots are well established it's less of an issue. I find this problem pops up more often when I've mixed a fresh batch of soil without letting it "cook" for a while. This is especially important when growing biologically, since it takes some time for the nutrients to be processed by the microherd.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 5, 2011)

To any of you guys using alfalfa in your teas: You may want to do some more reading into its use late into flowering. The hormones contained in alfalfa and kelp can have an antagonistic effect on flowering plants, resulting in delayed flowering. You should also keep in mind that many of the new bio bloom boosters contain their own hormone formulations, which can also become antagonistic when unknowingly mixed with others.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 5, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> To any of you guys using alfalfa in your teas: You may want to do some more reading into its use late into flowering. The hormones contained in alfalfa and kelp can have an antagonistic effect on flowering plants, resulting in delayed flowering. You should also keep in mind that many of the new bio bloom boosters contain their own hormone formulations, which can also become antagonistic when unknowingly mixed with others.


Very good point. "Triacontanol is a naturally occurring plant hormone that acts as a growth promoter. Triacontanol raises plant yield by improving photosynthesis and cell division." This has shown to increase trichome density, buy also to slow growth and maturity. Folks are using this on their gardens, I'll track down alfalfa meal teas for this thread. Triacontanol has to be used in very small amounts.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 5, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> So I have been doing some research on mixing my own veganic supersoil and catch a hit off of google and who do I find talking about in on the MedicalMJ forums, but Matt Rize himself, lol. How is that research coming along? Have you guys figured out the alternatives to the Guano, Blood Meal, Fish Meal, and Worm Castings (maybe)?


lol I've been looking into quality organic replacements. Cottonseed meal (7-2-2) was interesting at first, but the way cotton is grown is generally disgusting, and finding a good organic source of the meal is difficult. Kelp meal is another good meal (1-0-2). Soft rock phosphate is a good P source, but slow to break down. Alfalfa meal, the triacontanol source, is 3-1-2, not too shabby but you have to use this sparingly. 

Corn Gluten meal is something I'm looking at right now (9-0-0), but it comes with warning that it will inhibit root growth on seedlings so I have to look way more into it. 

Dry molasses is great for building soil 1-0-5, but low in N.


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## beeznutz (Apr 6, 2011)

i need some good enzymes for m'ladies- what do u guys use?
i know about sensizym and hydrozyme, anything else worth looking at?


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## Stoner.Barbie (Apr 6, 2011)

i like the hygrozyme.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 6, 2011)

Stoner.Barbie said:


> i like the hygrozyme.


how late into flower do you use it? I'm not sure, and they won't tell us what's in it.


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## upthearsenal (Apr 6, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> how late into flower do you use it? I'm not sure, and they won't tell us what's in it.


Seriously man, I've always thought that was odd. Is it like a "secret formula" that they don't want to get ripped off or something..?

I mean, if it's "organic" then there should be no shame disclosing the ingredients.


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## S.V.T. (Apr 6, 2011)

Here's how I use the stuff but I think you have to adjust the application rates based on substrate, nutrients, and strain.
veg.
week 1 (rooted clone stage) 2-ml
week 2 2-ml
week 3+ 5-ml

bloom
week 1-2 5-ml
week 3-6 7-10-ml depending on root ball size
week 7-9 I use little to none

I think that using too much hygrozyme late in bloom makes residual nitrogen available and can extend finishing time.

I have no idea what's in it but it is listed as og...


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## upthearsenal (Apr 6, 2011)

I looked it up a little while ago, they seem to love slapping the word secret all over the bottle... It says it's been proven and the description on the site I'm looking at that sells it says it was field tested and such in Cali co-ops, and also by the Pacific Agricultural Research Center and B.C. Research Council chemists.

I might be unsure but it seems like an interesting product, I'd give it a go... even though I find some of their marketing practices slightly humorous. I'd still like to do more research on it though....


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## Stoner.Barbie (Apr 6, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> how late into flower do you use it? I'm not sure, and they won't tell us what's in it.


i use very little with my feedings. backing ofofit now that i amalmost done. just enzymes is my guess.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 6, 2011)

I use it all the way through, tapering off towards the end. I can see no ill effects, my buds are dank as fuck and I yield well.

Through most of the grow I alternate between Cannazyme and Hygrozyme, using both at around 5-7ml/gallon.


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## zels420 (Apr 6, 2011)

Any one try agave nectar in place of molasses


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## beeznutz (Apr 7, 2011)

ended up getting Hygrozyme, it was either that or Sensizym which i really didn't wanna give my money to, that's all they had at the local shop. was not cheap either but the guy recomended to me and in spite of the 'secret formula' which i think it's just a marketing strategy, it seem to be kosher, it is OMRI so.......why not give it a try.
do you guys think it's ok to use it with a water feed or does it have to be added to the nutes?


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## RPsmoke420 (Apr 7, 2011)

I believe Hygrozyme is somewhat of a mix of chitinases, proteases, hydrolases glucanases and cellulase, mostly cellulase. Kinda what I understood anyway.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 7, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> ended up getting Hygrozyme, it was either that or Sensizym which i really didn't wanna give my money to, that's all they had at the local shop. was not cheap either but the guy recomended to me and in spite of the 'secret formula' which i think it's just a marketing strategy, it seem to be kosher, it is OMRI so.......why not give it a try.
> do you guys think it's ok to use it with a water feed or does it have to be added to the nutes?


Water feed? Taf?


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## upthearsenal (Apr 7, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Water feed? Taf?


I know what you are referring to and beeznutz is cool, no tafmangs in here.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 7, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> I know what you are referring to and beeznutz is cool, no tafmangs in here.


I was totally joking.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 7, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> I know what you are referring to and beeznutz is cool, no tafmangs in here.


clue brother in! wha gwan?

Wolv- Saw you over in icschwag. That one guy you were reading (cc) is one of the four or five people on that site that are very informed, he is probably #1. Beware that site, they moderate strictly for financial reasons, so unless you are talking about something they sell, you had better just not bring it up. I was Matt Rize there, then Thomkal Vwalaa, now I'm decarb


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## upthearsenal (Apr 7, 2011)

lol, no es nada/nadie importante...


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## Matt Rize (Apr 8, 2011)

Thought I'd post this for fun. Chem Dawg Family Tree:


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 8, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> clue brother in! wha gwan?
> 
> Wolv- Saw you over in icschwag. That one guy you were reading (cc) is one of the four or five people on that site that are very informed, he is probably #1. Beware that site, they moderate strictly for financial reasons, so unless you are talking about something they sell, you had better just not bring it up. I was Matt Rize there, then Thomkal Vwalaa, now I'm decarb


Yeah, I meander over there from time to time. There does seem to be some pretty comprehensive info in certain sections, which is why I go. One can really fall down the rabbit hole on certain topics over there, that's for sure. They're my generally my backup when RIU goes down for repairs...

That Chemdog chart is crazy btw.


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## R3DROCk9 (Apr 8, 2011)

i started reading and got to page 11 of this crackpot's ramblings and still havent noticed much about veganic ways..i, too, am running biocanna and am having some defiiency problems....wanted to see sumone's own run with their line, bu all that shows up on here is a a huge runaround....can sum1 plz direct mHe to post numbers or page numbers thatget down to the nitty?? i dont care about the veganic debate...i jus want sum facts like what to run and what to supplement.....and what works for tem.....wutever....not this poo talk back andforth....shyt gets old after a while....jus fuHkin say wut your doin, wut your experienceing, and what to expect WTF


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## Matt Rize (Apr 8, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> i started reading and got to page 11 of this crackpot's ramblings and still havent noticed much about veganic ways..i, too, am running biocanna and am having some defiiency problems....wanted to see sumone's own run with their line, bu all that shows up on here is a a huge runaround....can sum1 plz direct mHe to post numbers or page numbers thatget down to the nitty?? i dont care about the veganic debate...i jus want sum facts like what to run and what to supplement.....and what works for tem.....wutever....not this poo talk back andforth....shyt gets old after a while....jus fuHkin say wut your doin, wut your experienceing, and what to expect WTF


LOL, nice post bredren 

This thread sure started rough, but what can I say... it's my first thread ever. 
Scattered through there are lots of tips. You can also check my journal to avoid the bs.

I'd give you some post links but you already are calling names so I'm not sure about you yet. PEACE


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## upthearsenal (Apr 8, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> i started reading and got to page 11 of this crackpot's ramblings and still havent noticed much about veganic ways..i, too, am running biocanna and am having some defiiency problems....wanted to see sumone's own run with their line, bu all that shows up on here is a a huge runaround....can sum1 plz direct mHe to post numbers or page numbers thatget down to the nitty?? i dont care about the veganic debate...i jus want sum facts like what to run and what to supplement.....and what works for tem.....wutever....not this poo talk back andforth....shyt gets old after a while....jus fuHkin say wut your doin, wut your experienceing, and what to expect WTF


Deficiency problems? Is that a grammar deficiency or are you just politeness deficient?

If you would have been chill about it you could have gotten more info, personally I don't mind searching through this thread for info that someone wants but can't find, even if they can use the *search option* themselves....

Take a chill pill (smoke a bowl), tone down the demands, and you will find everything you need here.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 9, 2011)

Found this really cool link. Info on commercial ferts.
http://agr.wa.gov/Pestfert/Fertilizers/FertDB/Product1.aspx

Bio Vega data link:
http://agr.wa.gov/Pestfert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=4893

Calplex looks to have high levels of metals.
http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=4439

Huvega too:
http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=4439

Here is BioAgs Humic acid with micronutes. The TM-7
http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=5497


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## beeznutz (Apr 9, 2011)

> Originally Posted by Wolverine97
> Water feed? Taf?
> I know what you are referring to and beeznutz is cool, no tafmangs in here.


mahn, dunno what u guys been smokin but........pass it on 
but seriously, is there a difference if i give water+hygrozym without nutes?
jus wondering since the label says to do it along ur regular feeding schedule

i'm growing in hempy buckets and with organics it's a bit tricky it seems, after a while
i get smelly odor from the bottom of the buckets and have to do a flush, i'd say every 2 weeks. i'm hoping this hygrozyme will work its magic on that bacteria.


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## R3DROCk9 (Apr 9, 2011)

fanks matt...i aprreciate da links..long time mi a try fi deal wit da problems dem....i ramped up my nutes, as biocanna seems a liddle weak...girls are feeling better now...shyt eerytime i go in there dey signalin TOUCHDOWN like its still football season LOL


will continue to follow these posts ....wish you the best

in case yaw r wondering i am now listening to Slew Dem by Capleton......


....and to upyourarsenal....listening to Sizzla 'nah apologize' for you hahahah

yuh dun kno 



oh p.s. i started using coconot by vermicrop (luvs it) and about to keep brewing vermitea at home as well....anyone with experience with these products....good or bad???

my links-----> myspace.com/oh_no__dare_he_go


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## NightbirdX (Apr 10, 2011)

So I was at the grow shop. I'm still trying to tweak my watering schedule and was talking with a friend who works there and uses Canna. He got me pointed in t he right direction I think. I need to stop smoking weed when I'm trying to figure shit out because I had about 8 ideas I was working with trying to piece together. After talking to him and looking at everything I've talked with you guys about again, I think I'm getting closer. He uses Canna on a feed water, feed water schedule. I've been trying to feed, feed, feed, like I do with my Fox Farm nutes. Obviously the BioCanna nutes run hot. 

The problem I have is this. My friend says he normally will do a 2 gallon feed in 7 gallon buckets once a week. He also gives a 2 gallon watering/supplement 3 days after he feeds. In my grow, my plants normally only take 2 gallons per 10 gallon buckets, one time a week. I guess I am going to just go something like this: On another note, I am only using the Cannazym and Rhizotonic until my bottles are empty and then I will be switching to Hygrozyme for Cannazym and Rhizo. 

*Veg:*
Week 1: 5ml Vega, 5ml Hygro
Week 2: 5ml Nitrozyme, 5ml CaMg+
Week 3: 5ml Vega, 5ml Hygro
Week 4: Tea: Mint Compost, Molasses, and soluble MycoRhizzae sprinkled on top.

*Flower:*
Week 5: 7.5ml Vega, 7.5ml Hygrozyme
Week 6: 5ml Nitrozyme, 5ml CaMg+
Week 7: 7.5ml Vega, 7.5ml Flores
Week 8: Tea: Mint Compost, Molasses, and soluble MycoRhizzae sprinkled on top.
Week 9: 15ml Flores, 10ml BioBoost
Week 10: 5ml CaMg+, 5ml Hygrozyme, 10ml BioBoost
Week 11: 20ml Flores, 10ml BioBoost
Week 12: 5ml Flores, 10ml BioBoost
Week 13: pH water, 10ml Molasses
Week 14: pH water, 10ml Molasses

This is the schedule as of right now. I started 6 Sour OG clones that are Gen 1 clones from my CC Sour OG. I am going to be experimenting with this and hopefully starting a journal and force myself to track the data. If I can't figure out BioCanna in this next run I'll be done with it for now. The quality I have been getting is incredible, but the yield has been pretty low. 

Does this look fairly decent? Is there anything that you guys think I am missing? Are my nutrient levels looking acceptable? I have been having problems with plants yellowing early like was mentioned by many of you. That is why I am implementing the Nitrozyme and carrying the Vega so far in. Not sure about Week 7 and 12. I guess I'll just have to see how that plants are reacting and adjust accordingly. Thus why I am going to be making a journal to keep me honest. 

Thanks for the help.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 10, 2011)

I would think about sticking with the vega longer, I've been yellowing as soon as I switch, and don't like that to start until later. I've been slowly phasing over to flores about 4 weeks in, still using some vega until the flush. 

I also don't think you need to add molasses at the end. It has lots of nutrients, if you are thinking about the microherd or sweetening your buds, use something sweet like raw sugar or even sucanant. Molasses isn't really sweet. 

ps. week 11: I never feed that hard, but I am a habitual under feeder.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 10, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I would think about sticking with the vega longer, I've been yellowing as soon as I switch, and don't like that to start until later. I've been slowly phasing over to flores about 4 weeks in, still using some vega until the flush.
> 
> I also don't think you need to add molasses at the end. It has lots of nutrients, if you are thinking about the microherd or sweetening your buds, use something sweet like raw sugar or even sucanant. Molasses isn't really sweet.
> 
> ps. week 11: I never feed that hard, but I am a habitual under feeder.


Thanks for the help Matt. I will make some changes. I'll keep adding a touch of Vega to the mix. I'm just trying to establish a base to start at. I honestly don't see myself pushing too much 10ml of any nutrient. I will just be watching for signs of deficiency mostly. I think I'll maybe try 10ml Flores 5ml Vega at the feeding peak. 

And thanks for the input about the molasses at the end. I was thinking of using it for sweet factor. I was thinking of Sugar, but I already have ants around. I haven't really looked into any organic sucanat. I'll check it out, and will just use straight water during flush until I find my organic sweetner.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 10, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Thanks for the help Matt. I will make some changes. I'll keep adding a touch of Vega to the mix. I'm just trying to establish a base to start at. I honestly don't see myself pushing too much 10ml of any nutrient. I will just be watching for signs of deficiency mostly. I think I'll maybe try 10ml Flores 5ml Vega at the feeding peak.
> 
> And thanks for the input about the molasses at the end. I was thinking of using it for sweet factor. I was thinking of Sugar, but I already have ants around. I haven't really looked into any organic sucanat. I'll check it out, and will just use straight water during flush until I find my organic sweetner.


im doing just water last 10. this green crack already smells like candy


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## NightbirdX (Apr 10, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> im doing just water last 10. this green crack already smells like candy


I'd really like to get a cut of GC. I hear a lot of things about it from my friends out west, but I haven't seen it in Michigan yet.


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## R3DROCk9 (Apr 10, 2011)

wut size lights you runnin nightbird?? i wuz feedig my girls from the same nutrient mix and the bitches under t5s were fine, bu the ones under 1k were becoming deficient...more light requires more nutes frm my experiences....i would ramp it up....yellowing is caused by one of three things 1) nute burn 2) ph lockout or 3) deficiency .....i dont think your burning them bc your nute strength is low (too low, in fact), ph is fine bc your using veganics (broad ph range between 5.5-7.0 will work with veganics).....so i would say by order of deductive reasoning that they are deficient..soooo, turn it up mann....get dem bitches dancin!!!


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## R3DROCk9 (Apr 10, 2011)

<---running GReen Crack, UK cheese, Nebula, and Krpytonite righ nitty


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## NightbirdX (Apr 11, 2011)

I run 1k lights. But my problem has been too many nutes. I just had to seperate things into a feed week and watering week. Hopefully things will level out soon. 

For my own plants I am finishing up my first set of plants in my rotation. I took down 2 AK-47 last week and just took down a Headband tonight. My last plant of the set is a Great White Shark and comes down this next week. My next set is 2 Apollo 13, and 2 Butterscotch Hawaiian x G-13, which come down in 4-5 weeks. After that I am only growing my Sour OG and Jack Herer which I started from seed. I ordered some Deadhead OG, Chem Valley Kush, and Plushberry also which I will be adding to my set. 

I just found a bigger spot to do my thang at today. It has a small room attached which used to be used for a small grow op. I plan on using this as a breeding chamber for some dankness. I was gifted a Strawberry Cough male from a friend who says it comes from good stock. I planned on doing a small scale breeding operation. I am going to cross it with my Jack Herer, Sour OG, White Rhino, and a Blueberry. I am pretty excited about it. 

Question. I have a Grand Daddy Purps that is starting to lighten up a bit. It is almost an olive drab color compared to its sisters next to it. It is 3 weeks into flowering. I have been giving it a mix of Vega and Flores, but I guess it isn't enough Nitrogen. Do I do a watering this week with Nitrozyme and a low dose of vega? Or do you think I should just do the Vega and Flores again?


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## Matt Rize (Apr 11, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Question. I have a Grand Daddy Purps that is starting to lighten up a bit. It is almost an olive drab color compared to its sisters next to it. It is 3 weeks into flowering. I have been giving it a mix of Vega and Flores, but I guess it isn't enough Nitrogen. Do I do a watering this week with Nitrozyme and a low dose of vega? Or do you think I should just do the Vega and Flores again?


I don't have any experience with nitrozyme, but if the vega/flores isn't working, then you can always use more vega and less flores. Mine went light green like that early too.


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## R3DROCk9 (Apr 11, 2011)

STILL sounds like you need more nutes nightbird...try it on one plant if you dont think im correct....but i know that veganic nutes are traditionally weaker than chemical nutrients..sum ppl run 125% the recommended dosage with biocanna. nute burn, ph lockout, and deficiency all pretty much look the same.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 11, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I don't have any experience with nitrozyme, but if the vega/flores isn't working, then you can always use more vega and less flores. Mine went light green like that early too.


Thanks for the tip Matt.

Redrock, I have been running on the low end of nutes lately because I had burn issues prior. It seems like when I put more than 10ml a gallon they start burning. I know it is not pH issues, because I had pH lockout on one plant and have been pHing my water ever since with Earth Juice Organic pH up. I'm just trying to tweak my levels I guess.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 11, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Thanks for the tip Matt.
> 
> Redrock, I have been running on the low end of nutes lately because I had burn issues prior. It seems like when I put more than 10ml a gallon they start burning. I know it is not pH issues, because I had pH lockout on one plant and have been pHing my water ever since with Earth Juice Organic pH up. I'm just trying to tweak my levels I guess.


I've used Nitrozyme pretty extensively, though I don't use it anymore (only because I'm testing different products). It is a great overall product when used during vegetative and the first week of flowering. It really helps increase the number and quality of bud sites. It's heavy in cytokinins, which is why you don't want to continue using through flower. I'd recommend it as a supplement to what you're currently using, I don't see any potential antagonism.


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## R3DROCk9 (Apr 11, 2011)

thanks for the clarification nightbird  ......jus curious, tho, is this your first time running biocanna? or have you had many runs before?? the reason i ask is bc it is VERY VERY hard to burn plants with veganics.......if you have experience then i say you are in a better position to diagnose your problem than mHe bc you are ACTUALLY there.....if not, everything else you have stated STILL sounds like it is from under nuting your gurls...my canna feeding schedule says 12-15 of flores per gallon (not 10)...bein that your runnin 1Ks means...more light power requires more nutes....i was using the same solution mix on my gurls under my 1K and then would feed the same batch to my gurls under my T5s......T5 gurls were nice and dark green....bu under 1K, the nutes werent enough

nightbird plz believe: YOUR PLANTS ARE DEFICIENT

...you could also let your solution sit for an hour or two after you mix and before you feed bc the PH does fluctuate for a while....bu honestly thats not your problem jus try more nutes on one plant bc your hesitant about wut im sayin.....then you will see and you can thank me later


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 11, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> thanks for the clarification nightbird  ......jus curious, tho, is this your first time running biocanna? or have you had many runs before?? the reason i ask is bc it is VERY VERY hard to burn plants with veganics.......if you have experience then i say you are in a better position to diagnose your problem than mHe bc you are ACTUALLY there.....if not, everything else you have stated STILL sounds like it is from under nuting your gurls...my canna feeding schedule says 12-15 of flores per gallon (not 10)...bein that your runnin 1Ks means...more light power requires more nutes....i was using the same solution mix on my gurls under my 1K and then would feed the same batch to my gurls under my T5s......T5 gurls were nice and dark green....bu under 1K, the nutes werent enough
> 
> nightbird plz believe: YOUR PLANTS ARE DEFICIENT
> 
> ...you could also let your solution sit for an hour or two after you mix and before you feed bc the PH does fluctuate for a while....bu honestly thats not your problem jus try more nutes on one plant bc your hesitant about wut im sayin.....then you will see and you can thank me later


I'm going to agree with this assessment. I'm pretty sure I commented in an earlier thread that you look to be a bit on the light side with your feedings. Deficiency and burn can look virtually identical with only a few small nuances being the visible difference. I went through this years ago using Fox Farm nutrients, and I was perpetually terrified to overfeed my plants and in the process caused myself many unnecessary headaches and shitty yields. I actually quit growing for a few years because I just didn't think I'd figure it out, then I decided I wasn't really risking much by experimenting and I haven't looked back since.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 11, 2011)

Ya, I am finishing up my first run with BioCanna. Just starting to get the feel for it. It is completely different than my Fox Farms run. I know that I am undernuting according to the chart, but like I said earlier I was trying to feed, feed, feed. Now I am doing feed, water, feed, water to let the plant digest the nutes better. I think once that is back on track, I'll be able to run the higher levels that they recommend. Thank you for the advice though man. How often do you water and feed?


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 11, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Ya, I am finishing up my first run with BioCanna. Just starting to get the feel for it. It is completely different than my Fox Farms run. I know that I am undernuting according to the chart, but like I said earlier I was trying to feed, feed, feed. Now I am doing feed, water, feed, water to let the plant digest the nutes better. I think once that is back on track, I'll be able to run the higher levels that they recommend. Thank you for the advice though man. How often do you water and feed?


For me it's about every third, or every other day when they're really going. That's in five gallon containers. It just depends on the strain and time of year. One thing I noticed was that you said you only water about once a week; make sure to always thoroughly saturate the pots. I notice that if I don't water, wait, water until runoff it actually takes the pots longer to dry than if I do completely saturate them. My educated guess is that it has to do with cation exchange, and the physical location of the feeder roots in the containers. If most of the moisture is concentrated in the center of the container and the rest of it doesn't get regularly flushed out/saturated then the medium and rootmass do not function harmoniously. If that made any sense whatsoever, when I'm high I have trouble writing my thoughts coherently.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 11, 2011)

So will deficiency show us as small rust hole burning through your plant and start going away when you flush and give lower dosages? lol How much are you watering Wolverine? I was thinking of cutting back to 1/2 gallon per 5 gallon bucket twice a week. As of now I'm giving them 1 gallon once a week roughly. Trust me bro, i've tried upping it. I went from 5ml to 7.5ml to 10ml and once I hit 10ml Flores, 10ml BioBoost, my plants burned. Not a little, but a lot. Still trying to fix them. 

I know you told me that I was on the lower side of nutrient dosages and I fully get that, trust me I do. I use 3 times the amount of nutes in my Fox Farm line with no problems at all. 
I use a 2 gallon watering can with a spout that limits how much will come out. I water all over the top of the plant only being sure to get into every corner of the 10 gallon totes and I try to be sure to leave no dry soil on the top of the plants. That does make sense what you are saying though. I will try to focus on the outside of the plants mostly because the water does tend to run into the middle of the put.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 11, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> So will deficiency show us as small rust hole burning through your plant and start going away when you flush and give lower dosages? lol How much are you watering Wolverine? I was thinking of cutting back to 1/2 gallon per 5 gallon bucket twice a week. As of now I'm giving them 1 gallon once a week roughly. Trust me bro, i've tried upping it. I went from 5ml to 7.5ml to 10ml and once I hit 10ml Flores, 10ml BioBoost, my plants burned. Not a little, but a lot. Still trying to fix them.
> 
> I know you told me that I was on the lower side of nutrient dosages and I fully get that, trust me I do. I use 3 times the amount of nutes in my Fox Farm line with no problems at all.
> I use a 2 gallon watering can with a spout that limits how much will come out. I water all over the top of the plant only being sure to get into every corner of the 10 gallon totes and I try to be sure to leave no dry soil on the top of the plants. That does make sense what you are saying though. I will try to focus on the outside of the plants mostly because the water does tend to run into the middle of the put.


Deficiencies can be very tough to pin down. It could be a lockout issue that the flushing is temporarily fixing. Without going back to re-read; are you using beneficial organisms? You could be having pH swings in your medium, that a good microherd will stabilize. I'm just troubleshooting here...

I give my plants about a gallon of water food (thanks taf) per 5gal container on average twice a week, and on watering day they're on the dry side. I first give them about a liter, then wait ten minutes and give the rest to ensure even saturation. They'll dry out a good two days faster this way than if I go light on the water.


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## R3DROCk9 (Apr 11, 2011)

Damn you nightbird lol

plant based organic nutrients are known to be weaker nutrients as a whole, and biocanna is known to be a weak nute line..like i said before, sum ppl run 125% biocanna nutes under 1k lights bc it is a weak nutrient solution..you are giving your plants 10 out 15ml of nutrient solution, or roughly 67% of the recommended dosage..and you are doing this under the strongest commercial light made.

lemme put this in terms i can overstand:

its like your plants have the energy (from lights) to run a marathon, bu you are only giving them a snack to carry them through..

While i dont know how far along you are in your grow, i can almost bet that your fan leaves are small too..as far as your spots on leaves, you are probably are running into a whole gambit of deficiencies, as well....leaves yellowing from the outside edge inward...also yellowing from the top of the leaf down to the base, plant as a whole turning light green, and so forth..

i know you have at least been on this thread for a week (bc i have), so therefore i know you got at least another week in you........soO, jus do wut im sayin on one plant (run your nutrients @FULL STRENGTH) and you'll seee a difference before the next weekend is over........you'll actually notice a difference in about 4 days (give or take half a day)...


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## R3DROCk9 (Apr 11, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> I went from 5ml to 7.5ml to 10ml and once I hit 10ml Flores, 10ml BioBoost, my plants burned.


your plants didnt burn, they became deficient bc you started your nutes at 1/3 the recommended dose and 'upped' it to 2/3....your gurls took a while to show signs of deficiency and now are liddle somalians wanting A LOT of mineral water to satisfy their parched throats.........


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## R3DROCk9 (Apr 12, 2011)

p.s. and you should also be at 15ml bioboost NiteBurd.....


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## NightbirdX (Apr 12, 2011)

Redrock, you kill me man, lol. I don't know what to make of you. But you made me smile on a shitty shitty day. I will run the recommended dosage like you said on the next feeding. But if it burns, I hate to tell you I told you so.... 

This is my newest set that I am running. You tell me how to make them happy and I will. I have 6 Sour OG in 1/2 gallon bags right now. First run of clones from a mother chosen from seeds that came from Cali Connection. Whether or not you like the company, they are legit regular seeds ordered from a company. Better than 95% of the clones around here. The ladies are in 1/2 gal bags. All the gallons I tell you will be split between these 6 plants until I otherwise say so. After transplanting into bags, they got 5ml Vega, 2.5 ml Rhizo, 2.5 Rhizo. 2 gallons split between 6 plants (week one.) IMO I overwatered them a bit after a transplant, and it took a couple of days for them to start doing their thing. I should have probably given them 1 gallon split between 6, but they started to perk up a bit towards the end of week 1. Today, week 2 (Day 8 from transplant,) they got 1tsp Nitrozyme and 1tsp CaMg+ per gal, split between 6 plants. Pop quiz hotshot! What is the next move, lol.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 12, 2011)

And I know I should be at 15ml Bio Boost, I'm just scared shitless, lol.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 12, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> And I know I should be at 15ml Bio Boost, I'm just scared shitless, lol.


Don't fear the reaper.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 12, 2011)

I got a fever, and the only perscription... is more BioBoost.


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## upthearsenal (Apr 12, 2011)

15ml bioboost...? no thanks, stuffs too expensive and I'm too poor. I'll stick with my 6ml/gal 

Anyways.. Hey Matt are you still using Mayan Madness? I'm looking into getting mycomaximum, I can't seem to find the Madness where I shop online, is it worth looking for elsewhere? I guess since mayan microz and mycromax. are made by the same people they might be the same thing?


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 12, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> I got a fever, and the only perscription... is more BioBoost.


I really think you should do a test plant using General Organics Bio Bud in place of the Canna Boost. I'm thinking it's the same basic thing, and the dose rates are much lower for the Bio Bud. I'm really liking it, and their whole lineup really. It's cheaper than Canna, and it works very well. I really need to get some Canna and run some experiments...


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## upthearsenal (Apr 12, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I really think you should do a test plant using General Organics Bio Bud in place of the Canna Boost. I'm thinking it's the same basic thing, and the dose rates are much lower for the Bio Bud. I'm really liking it, and their whole lineup really. It's cheaper than Canna, and it works very well. I really need to get some Canna and run some experiments...


Canna Boost and Bioboost are two different things.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 12, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Canna Boost and Bioboost are two different things.


I understand that, was just lazy and didn't feel like typing the Bio in there. That worked out well...

Edit: to clarify, obviously since I believe them to be the same thing I'm comparing their "bio" lines.


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## upthearsenal (Apr 12, 2011)

True, laziness pays off, aye 
Since we're on the topic, I searched the stuff quickly and it looks pretty cool." Ingredients: Plant protein hydrolysate, rock phosphate and sea kelp" Sounds good to me, but I'm fairly certain the ingredients on the bioboost are different, although I've never been able to find a list of the bioboost ingredients (Rize alert). The price is good, Bioboost is $76 for 1L and the GH stuff is around $25 for a qt. Yet, the Bioboost has that oh so special OMRI listing... which jacks the price considerably.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 12, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> True, laziness pays off, aye
> Since we're on the topic, I searched the stuff quickly and it looks pretty cool." Ingredients: Plant protein hydrolysate, rock phosphate and sea kelp" Sounds good to me, but I'm fairly certain the ingredients on the bioboost are different, although I've never been able to find a list of the bioboost ingredients (Rize alert). The price is good, Bioboost is $76 for 1L and the GH stuff is around $25 for a qt. Yet, the Bioboost has that oh so special OMRI listing... which jacks the price considerably.


The GO Bio Budt is $37/qt retail, not to nitpick...


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## upthearsenal (Apr 12, 2011)

Lol, like I said, I searched it quickly, saw it for $24 + 5 for shipping through google..............


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## NightbirdX (Apr 12, 2011)

Canoeing in leaves is from heat right?


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 12, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Canoeing in leaves is from heat right?


Or magnesium. If it's heat you'll usually see the individual serrations all curling and pointing up badly, usually, but not always.


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## R3DROCk9 (Apr 12, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> This is my newest set that I am running. You tell me how to make them happy and I will. I have 6 Sour OG in 1/2 gallon bags right now.


NB - i need a few answers already if you can..i havent read all the posts in this thread and maybe you can direct mHe to the following answers below if you have already posted them  anyways:

1. What's your medium?
2. What size light are they under?
3. How old (wut week-veg, right?) and tall (inches) are yo gurls?


1/2 gallon bags?...i use 3 gallon 'rose buckets' they are called..you can ask for them at your hydro store..about 8" wide & they are square ..these buckets will give your gurls more room for their roots than a 1/2 gallon (i'm unfamiliar w/ these 1/2 bags you speak of...they sound like outdoor guerilla style gardening)....anyways....

more roots=more fruits

u might wanna put them in bigger containers..

bu, first, regardless, i need to know the answers above before i can help further....okay


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## Matt Rize (Apr 13, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> 15ml bioboost...? no thanks, stuffs too expensive and I'm too poor. I'll stick with my 6ml/gal
> 
> Anyways.. Hey Matt are you still using Mayan Madness? I'm looking into getting mycomaximum, I can't seem to find the Madness where I shop online, is it worth looking for elsewhere? I guess since mayan microz and mycromax. are made by the same people they might be the same thing?


HN and their confusing product names....

Mayan microzyme is the concentrated liquid inoculant. It has two species of bacteria. I am still using this, once in mid veg. Until it's gone, then it's out. Myco Madness is the mixed species inoculant, with cheap humic acid. It's designed for commercial nursery and greenhouse use, many of the species in it (like great white) do not associate with Cannabis (but they do work with conifers).

I'd suggest using the VAM from BioAg http://www.bioag.com/allotherstates.html, and using that with their Humic. The price is the least expensive ($50/lb) for the VAM (endo-myco). And the humic, which is separate, is the best source I've found.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 13, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I understand that, was just lazy and didn't feel like typing the Bio in there. That worked out well...
> 
> Edit: to clarify, obviously since I believe them to be the same thing I'm comparing their "bio" lines.


biobizz and go are the same. biocanna has different ingredients ie vinasse and hops


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## Matt Rize (Apr 13, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> True, laziness pays off, aye
> Since we're on the topic, I searched the stuff quickly and it looks pretty cool." Ingredients: Plant protein hydrolysate, rock phosphate and sea kelp" Sounds good to me, but I'm fairly certain the ingredients on the bioboost are different, although I've never been able to find a list of the bioboost ingredients (Rize alert). The price is good, Bioboost is $76 for 1L and the GH stuff is around $25 for a qt. Yet, the Bioboost has that oh so special OMRI listing... which jacks the price considerably.


Yeah, OMRI really is BS racket to make money and pose as a non-profit. But Bioboost is made of plant hormones and sugar mostly. They are using certain oligosaccharides possibly from cane sugar. The idea is that the hormones trigger a low stress response, without any physical stress (Low Stress Training for flowering).

http://www.igrowhydro.com/canna/BioBoost-MSDS.pdf
MSDS ->>>> NON TOXIC

Check this .pdf out. The second page or so is an article about boosters.


> CannaResearch, CANNA&#8217;s research and development wing has developed two booster products, &#8220;BioBoost&#8221; and &#8220;CANNABOOST Accelerator&#8221;. These products are almost identical; BioBoost is organic with nothing inorganic added and CANNABOOST has an added component that is inorganic but pure. The use of this component in the Boost kicks it into high gear so that the results are rapid and big. BioBoost manifests itself in a slower manner, but it is the perfect answer for those wanting to stay 100% organic and compliments BIOCANNA&#8217;s BioVega, BioFlores
> nutrients. BioBoost will work in all systems in the same way as CANNABOOST. Both products affect the plant's energy systems as described, and the organic component gives the part that would be nice.
> 
> A significant part of both products is the oligosaccharines that result from the breakdown of the bio components. These are basically small protein chains and cell wall chains that mimic enzymes, hormones and growth regulators. They stimulate key aspects in a plant such as its immune system (which turns on and acts as a preventer), alkaloid and essential oil production. They also influence protein synthesis allowing the cells to become denser, and strongly trigger the &#8216;organic&#8217; taste in consumed plant components.


http://cannatalk.com/downloads/files/01_CannaTalk.pdf



> any carbohydrate of from three to six units of simple sugars (monosaccharides). A large number of oligosaccharides have been prepared by partially breaking down more complex carbohydrates (polysaccharides). Most of the few naturally occurring oligosaccharides are found in plants. Raffinose, a trisaccharide found in many plants, consists of melibiose (galactose and glucose) and fructose. Another plant trisaccharide is gentianose. Maltotriose, a trisaccharide of glucose, occurs in some plants and in the blood of certain arthropods.


britannica



> Fructo-oligosaccharides (FOS), which are found in many vegetables, consist of short chains of fructose molecules....
> Not all natural oligosaccharides occur as components of glycoproteins or glycolipids. Some, such as the raffinose series, occur as storage or transport carbohydrates in plants. Others, such as maltodextrins or cellodextrins, result from the microbial breakdown of larger polysaccharides such as starch or cellulose.


wiki



> BioBOOST is a yield increasing agent for all cultivation systems and can be applied in combination with all CANNA's nutritional lines and additives. BioBOOST is not a nutrient but a natural fermented plant extract with bloom stimulating characteristics that are also responsible for a more round flavor. BioBOOST was developed by Canna Research from plant extracts from tropical rainforests and is a true boost for plants. The bioactive substances result in a heightened metabolism that is exactly what the plant needs during the blooming period. The plants produce more fructose, become healthier and stronger and are less vulnerable to diseases and plagues.


sales pitch everywhere



> After years of field studies in the primary rainforests of South Asia, Africa and Middle America, among other places, and research in CannaResearch's laboratories, CANNA is very proud to introduce BioBOOST!
> BioBOOST is a yield-increasing agent for all cultivation systems and can be applied in combination with all of CANNA's nutritional lines and additives. BioBOOST is not a nutrient, but a natural fermented plant extract with bloom-stimulating characteristics that are also responsible for a fuller flavor.


from biocanna site.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 13, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> NB - i need a few answers already if you can..i havent read all the posts in this thread and maybe you can direct mHe to the following answers below if you have already posted them  anyways:
> 
> 1. What's your medium? Pro Mix
> 2. What size light are they under? 400w MH at the moment
> ...


Sorry, I guess I should have clarified. They are in week 2 right now, day 9. I put my plants into a folded down 1 gallon plastic potting bag. I fold it down to give it a little more sturdiness when I pick it up. I normally start my plants under a 400w MH for 2 weeks and then throw them under a 1000w MH until time to flower then put them under 1000w HPS. I have them in bags just to start and will transplant to the finishing container, probably a 10gallon bucket in a couple days, let them recover from the shock and the throw them under the 1000's.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 13, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> NB - i need a few answers already if you can..i havent read all the posts in this thread and maybe you can direct mHe to the following answers below if you have already posted them  anyways:
> 
> 1. What's your medium?
> 2. What size light are they under?
> ...


Did you attend kk's class?


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 13, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> biobizz and go are the same. biocanna has different ingredients ie vinasse and hops


I've heard that about Bio Bizz before, but I've never been able to find an actual ingredient list for the Canna Bio Boost.


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## beeznutz (Apr 13, 2011)

lemme ask u guys something, and pls do point me in the right direction for more indepth info......
jus wondering about nutes dosages, supps, micros, and ppm.....
for example, if ur nute says to feed at 10ml per gl and u also have to add things
like calcium, mg, etc., which adds ppm to ur mix, do u worry about the overall ppm being too high? or do u cut down on the main nutes [e.g., GO Grow] to make room for the rest of supps and micros [e.g., CaMg, Humic ...] to keep the ppm at a certain value ?
my shelf its getting full of nute+supps and not use to handle so many different kinds so i'm trying to get the basics down.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 13, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> lemme ask u guys something, and pls do point me in the right direction for more indepth info......
> jus wondering about nutes dosages, supps, micros, and ppm.....
> for example, if ur nute says to feed at 10ml per gl and u also have to add things
> like calcium, mg, etc., which adds ppm to ur mix, do u worry about the overall ppm being too high? or do u cut down on the main nutes [e.g., GO Grow] to make room for the rest of supps and micros [e.g., CaMg, Humic ...] to keep the ppm at a certain value ?
> my shelf its getting full of nute+supps and not use to handle so many different kinds so i'm trying to get the basics down.


This aint the thread for basics.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 14, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> lemme ask u guys something, and pls do point me in the right direction for more indepth info......
> jus wondering about nutes dosages, supps, micros, and ppm.....
> for example, if ur nute says to feed at 10ml per gl and u also have to add things
> like calcium, mg, etc., which adds ppm to ur mix, do u worry about the overall ppm being too high? or do u cut down on the main nutes [e.g., GO Grow] to make room for the rest of supps and micros [e.g., CaMg, Humic ...] to keep the ppm at a certain value ?
> my shelf its getting full of nute+supps and not use to handle so many different kinds so i'm trying to get the basics down.


The supplements do add to the overall PPM reading of the nutrient solution I water. But vegan organic nutes are pretty mild, so I don't mind the higher ppms. Canna in general is known to need extra calcium and magnesium. Some of the supplements barely affect PPM, examples are the BioBoost, Humic, hygrozyme, fulvic acids. Some supplements that do up the ppm are the calcium and magnesium. I'll try to lay out what ppm I run for the whole cycle. I've been keeping track.

You need to remember that your potting mix is most likely running out of substantial food sources by flower and the ppms will need to raise with that, then taper back down at the end.


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## beeznutz (Apr 14, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> This aint the thread for basics.


no need to be rude- if u have something to say try to make it positive, ehh?
reason i ask on here it's because i'm doing veganics, which is what this thread is about....


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## beeznutz (Apr 14, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> The supplements do add to the overall PPM reading of the nutrient solution I water. But vegan organic nutes are pretty mild, so I don't mind the higher ppms. Canna in general is known to need extra calcium and magnesium. Some of the supplements barely affect PPM, examples are the BioBoost, Humic, hygrozyme, fulvic acids. Some supplements that do up the ppm are the calcium and magnesium. I'll try to lay out what ppm I run for the whole cycle. I've been keeping track.
> 
> You need to remember that your potting mix is most likely running out of substantial food sources by flower and the ppms will need to raise with that, then taper back down at the end.


thx matt.....i believe i ran my nutes on low because of all the supps- basically i was trying to keep the ppm at a certain value but i needed to add supps like Ca and Mg [i'm using Botanicare Calplex&Huvega and they really add some substantial ppms] and ended up
low on the macros....and ofcourse, what i've thought to be nute burn ended up being nute defficiency 

matt, pls do add ur ppm chart if u get a chance, it's always nice to see other ppls flow.
i'm still running the GO line but when i run out i'll be switching to biocanna.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 14, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> no need to be rude- if u have something to say try to make it positive, ehh?
> reason i ask on here it's because i'm doing veganics, which is what this thread is about....


Ok. You're right, I get snippy at times.


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## R3DROCk9 (Apr 15, 2011)

hey guys..apologies for not being on for the past few days..personal life is kinda demanding righ now..

anyways, i will still try to help you as best i can nightbird...hopefully with all of us contributing we can help you succeed......bu i am still wondering HOW TALL ARE YOUR PLANTS (inches)? after they are about 8 inches tall i would start them on 8ml of vega, 8 ml of rhizotonic, and 10ml of cannazym..jus be sure not to put them under 1k for awhile, as this can burn their tender roots.




Matt Rize said:


> Did you attend kk's class?


 no i dont kno anything about KK other than that HT article...also, i didnt know he was running CocoNot too...do you kno if he teaches on the weekends? if so, how much is one of his classes? i am in SoCal right now, bu would travel up north to attend...



p.s. also, i dont mix my CocoNot with anything...vermicrop suggests vermiblend with it, bu i opted not...i thought i remember sumthing in it being unveganic...didnt want to ruin the whole plant based organics with sum animal poo


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## R3DROCk9 (Apr 15, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I'd suggest using the VAM from BioAg http://www.bioag.com/allotherstates.html, and using that with their Humic. The price is the least expensive ($50/lb) for the VAM (endo-myco).



i'd have to disagree with this matt..i found the company that started the whole mycorrhizae phenomena...they went down to the rainforest in 1993, and have been trying to replant thousands of trees ever since...they are the ones that studied plants' rhizosphere and beneficials, and are the leaders in this field.. their website is reforest.com ...plus, they have started a gardening section at xtreme-gardening.com where you can buy 1 kilo (2.2 lbs) of mycorrhizae for $55...Great White buys from them, then redistributes to consumers at an inflated price. ..after Great white buys from them, they charge $40 for 4 ounces....xtreme gardening is known to pumpkin growers as the end all, be all (basically)...and they also have other products to help utilize the CO2 (cal-carb) and nitrogen (azos) in the air..


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## Matt Rize (Apr 15, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> i'd have to disagree with this matt..i found the company that started the whole mycorrhizae phenomena...they went down to the rainforest in 1993, and have been trying to replant thousands of trees ever since...they are the ones that studied plants' rhizosphere and beneficials, and are the leaders in this field.. their website is reforest.com ...plus, they have started a gardening section at xtreme-gardening.com where you can buy 1 kilo (2.2 lbs) of mycorrhizae for $55...Great White buys from them, then redistributes to consumers at an inflated price. ..after Great white buys from them, they charge $40 for 4 ounces....xtreme gardening is known to pumpkin growers as the end all, be all (basically)...and they also have other products to help utilize the CO2 (cal-carb) and nitrogen (azos) in the air..


That's a fair argument. Bioag has the best customer service of any company I've ever worked with. That goes a long way with me.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 15, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> That's a fair argument. Bioag has the best customer service of any company I've ever worked with. That goes a long way with me.


I will say that I'm seriously impressed with the results I'm seeing so far using the Xtreme Gardening Mykos and Azos. The growth rates that I'm getting now are scary good, I've got the thickest stems I've ever had and they're flowering like they're possessed. Very happy with them so far, and I've played around with a lot of different bennies in my day.


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## upthearsenal (Apr 15, 2011)

Well, you three are making this purchase of mine more difficult... lol... So Matt, are you using the VAM-Endo? What size did you get, how big is it? I'm just wondering what 100g of this stuff would look like..

The extreme-gardening stuff looks great, props to both of you I had never heard of this stuff, but I'm confused, if I get only ONE which should it be? The cal-carb and azos look really cool, but should I just go with the Mykos WP?


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## Matt Rize (Apr 15, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Well, you three are making this purchase of mine more difficult... lol... So Matt, are you using the VAM-Endo? What size did you get, how big is it? I'm just wondering what 100g of this stuff would look like..
> 
> The extreme-gardening stuff looks great, props to both of you I had never heard of this stuff, but I'm confused, if I get only ONE which should it be? The cal-carb and azos look really cool, but should I just go with the Mykos WP?


As far as I can tell, you start with the Mykos, then use the cal-carb and azos in mid veg. 

I use the VAM, it's something that I mix in with my potting soil. Right now I'm about to transplant into:
Bioterra Plus
Big N Chunky Perlite
Local compost with rice hulls
Alaskan Humisoil
Epsom Salt
Dolomite Lime
BioAg VAM

My other inoculants are teas. This is the smallest size bag of inoculant they sell. And it's lasting forever because it's not designed to be added to your fertigation solution.


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## S.V.T. (Apr 15, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Well, you three are making this purchase of mine more difficult... lol... So Matt, are you using the VAM-Endo? What size did you get, how big is it? I'm just wondering what 100g of this stuff would look like..
> 
> The extreme-gardening stuff looks great, props to both of you I had never heard of this stuff, but I'm confused, if I get only ONE which should it be? The cal-carb and azos look really cool, but should I just go with the Mykos WP?


Man, I've been using the Mykos for the last 6 month's an the results are AWESOME. I mix it in with my soil along with some stuff from vital earth called glacial rock. The glacial rock adds great trace elements and feeds the soil/mykos. I top dress every 4 weeks with the glacial rock. Man, this is the ticket. check out the plants in my journal. I use this combo with them and they are ripping. feed the soil.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 15, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> As far as I can tell, you start with the Mykos, then use the cal-carb and azos in mid veg.
> 
> I use the VAM, it's something that I mix in with my potting soil. Right now I'm about to transplant into:
> Bioterra Plus
> ...


I've been using the Azos as an initial innoculant in my soil when I transplant, and I really like the stuff. The Mykos is freaking great, so far I like it much better than Great White or Myco Madness even though it's only one species. I still add some Myco Madness for the trichoderma it contains, but I'm a fan of Xtreme for sure. I haven't tried the CalCarb yet, even though I've got a pound of it. I just don't need it, and they were all free testers from my local hydro guy. Love that guy.


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## upthearsenal (Apr 15, 2011)

Thanks a lot for the info guys! I've been looking into this stuff for not only my indoor garden, but I also have around an acre of land that I want to farm some veggies and such on, but the dirt is really bad. Hard clay and totally depleted, nasty stuff. I think I might get both to use for my indoor garden and the veggie plot. I guess we'll see how these preform on a larger scale outdoors.

edit: by 'both' I mean the VAM and the Azos.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 15, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Thanks a lot for the info guys! I've been looking into this stuff for not only my indoor garden, but I also have around an acre of land that I want to farm some veggies and such on, but the dirt is really bad. Hard clay and totally depleted, nasty stuff. I think I might get both to use for my indoor garden and the veggie plot. I guess we'll see how these preform on a larger scale outdoors.
> 
> edit: by 'both' I mean the VAM and the Azos.


You'll have a lot of work ahead of you making that clay soil suitable for gardening. It can be done for sure, but it takes a lot of amending (A LOT) and the time for the amendments to work. It will take a couple of years to get it where you want and need it to be. You can grow in it right away after you break it up and mix everything in but it won't be ideal for some time.


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## upthearsenal (Apr 15, 2011)

Oh yeah man, I know. I like the challenge though, I feel this time next year it'll be getting near ideal. I plan on growing things this year that will improve the soil, I first plan on planting alfalfa after the soil is well amended and these bennies will help drastically with making it all bio-available, either way, this should be fun.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 15, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Oh yeah man, I know. I like the challenge though, I feel this time next year it'll be getting near ideal. I plan on growing things this year that will improve the soil, I first plan on planting alfalfa after the soil is well amended and these bennies will help drastically with making it all bio-available, either way, this should be fun.


I had to do the same thing for our veggy garden, our soil is mostly clay and it took about three years with lots of compost, peat, sand and all of my spent indoor soil. It's pretty good now but still needs some work.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 16, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Oh yeah man, I know. I like the challenge though, I feel this time next year it'll be getting near ideal. I plan on growing things this year that will improve the soil, I first plan on planting alfalfa after the soil is well amended and these bennies will help drastically with making it all bio-available, either way, this should be fun.


Lots of compost, and mulch. Maybe even a little horticultural charcoal. Pumice too if you have flood issues.


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## upthearsenal (Apr 16, 2011)

Flood issues, yes. Would have never thought about that... I'm getting compost from a company here, they have different varieties and list the contents explicitly, which is really cool. Thanks for the suggestions.

Wolverine, three years? that sounds crazy, I had to do the same with my yard and it took about a year and half, obviously different soils and other variables but three years is a lot for me. 

Anyone have any opinions on this stuff:
http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/itemMatrix.asp?GroupCode=NEGAAZHO00&MatrixType=1

it's cheap, and so am I  (plus the description sounds good as well).


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## Matt Rize (Apr 17, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Flood issues, yes. Would have never thought about that... I'm getting compost from a company here, they have different varieties and list the contents explicitly, which is really cool. Thanks for the suggestions.
> 
> Wolverine, three years? that sounds crazy, I had to do the same with my yard and it took about a year and half, obviously different soils and other variables but three years is a lot for me.
> 
> ...


I'm sure the ZHO is a decent product. But it's $100/lb. The BioAg is half that price.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 17, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Flood issues, yes. Would have never thought about that... I'm getting compost from a company here, they have different varieties and list the contents explicitly, which is really cool. Thanks for the suggestions.
> 
> Wolverine, three years? that sounds crazy, I had to do the same with my yard and it took about a year and half, obviously different soils and other variables but three years is a lot for me.
> 
> ...


Well, three years is to get it to an ideal consistency. It take time to break up clay soil.


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## 711grower (Apr 17, 2011)

i have been using the mykos wp along with a product called biota max. the results have been nothing less then gorgeous. the mykos wp has the mykos while the biota has the beneficial bacteria and lots of trichoderma. its a happy marriage


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## NightbirdX (Apr 18, 2011)

So... ya.... I did what you guys told me and upped the nutrients.... Everything is fixing itself.... Go ahead, you can do it, go ahead and say I told you so... lol. In my last feeding I gave my ailing Grand Daddy Purps 5ml Vega, 5ml Flores, 5ml CaMg+ and 15ml BioBoost. I also had a spider infestation trying to take over and after dealing with that and upping my nutrients. The plant is responding well and starting to turn much greener. The leaves coloring is filling back in and it is starting to turn purple like crazy. Crisis averted.... for now.... Thank you guys for helping me out and getting me back on track.


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## upthearsenal (Apr 18, 2011)

Right on Nightbird, what stage is that gdp in?


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 19, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> So... ya.... I did what you guys told me and upped the nutrients.... Everything is fixing itself.... Go ahead, you can do it, go ahead and say I told you so... lol. In my last feeding I gave my ailing Grand Daddy Purps 5ml Vega, 5ml Flores, 5ml CaMg+ and 15ml BioBoost. I also had a spider infestation trying to take over and after dealing with that and upping my nutrients. The plant is responding well and starting to turn much greener. The leaves coloring is filling back in and it is starting to turn purple like crazy. Crisis averted.... for now.... Thank you guys for helping me out and getting me back on track.


*clears throat* ... "Told you so"...


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## NightbirdX (Apr 19, 2011)

Its on its 4th week of Flowering. I had a side by side comparison going with my Fox Farms line. The Fox Farms is a bit bigger right now and has been doing well, no problems with it. I think the deficiencies had a lot to do with the problems I have had in the last week or two. My BioCanna GDP is a bit smaller, but has a lot more purple and smells a lot better. Regardless if the BioCanna GDP would be 20% smaller than the Fox Farms, I think that will be compounded in the end from the problems I had. The quality is looking nice though. It is crazy how a plant can do that purple to dark green illusion thing depending on how the light is hitting it. If the pistils start to redden up early in flower, is that a sign of borderline high nutrient levels? When I dosed them the other day, the color and vigor picked up, but the pistils started turning reddish brown and curling in a bit. 

I gave my Sour OG's another dose of 5ml Vega, 2.5ml Rhizo, 2.5ml Cannazyme. There is some purpling on the stems and they seem stressed. I don't know why, they are sitting under a light in a perfect temp room. They are growing faster and faster though. They are about 6" tall at about 2 weeks. I gave them Nitrozyme and CaMg last week. They didn't seem to like it much. There was leaf canoeing and that is when the purpling started. This is pretty much the reason I'm doing the Nitrozyme as a foliar. Not sure if they just didn't get enough food or what, but after I fed them the other day, they seemed to perk up a bit and start growing better. 

I think I was just trying to focus too much on supplemental nutrients and not giving them enough food. Even if you eat all of the vitamins in the world, they aren't going to do you good at all unless you have a good diet. I'm just going to add supplements when I see that they need it, and do Nitrozyme as a foliar opposite of my Neem oil schedule. 

Nitrozyme apparently is good for killing bugs too. My buddy had a bug problem and was doing different foliar rotations to keep a hostile environment. He would do Nitrozyme, water, and then Neem Oil in rotation about every 2 days. He saw a few mites when spraying with Nitrozyme and sprayed them. When he was done, he looked at the spot he saw them at, and they were curled up and dead. This is probably not an effective pest control solution, but definitely good for making life tough for the free loaders.


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## summitoker (May 4, 2011)

Just a few things i have learned so far.....running 2 vegan grows one personal and one at the dispencary where i work....
GO cal/mg is weak....some strains happily eat 3tsp per gallon, headband, deathstar and la kush cant seem to get enough.
Adjusting PH, i dont bother for my personal grow(ro water) but at the dispencary we have really hard water and it is mandatory.
Local hydro shop brews compost tea twice a week....makes it simple
Soil Secrets makes a soil innoculant, 900000 spores per pound of Glomus intraradices (not propagules), and the owner of the company was stoked to hear his product is being used to grow medical cannabis!
BioBoost at 16ml per gallon really wakes up the ladies.....
here are a few pics from my headstash grow day 29

headband and katsu bubba kush





ecsd, sweet afghani, ghost OG etc...





ecsd





chemdog 91 S1





sweet afghani (colorado cut)


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## Matt Rize (May 4, 2011)

EFF YEAH SUMMITOKER!!!!

Check out this weeks Cannabis Cuts with Deejay Wiid. They smoke my herb and hash on the show and get all high...
http://podcasts.piratecatradiocafe.org/CannabisCuts/CannabisCuts-20110503.mp3


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## beeznutz (May 4, 2011)

summitoker said:


> Just a few things i have learned so far.....running 2 vegan grows one personal and one at the dispencary where i work....
> GO cal/mg is weak....some strains happily eat 3tsp per gallon, headband, deathstar and la kush cant seem to get enough.
> Adjusting PH, i dont bother for my personal grow(ro water) but at the dispencary we have really hard water and it is mandatory.
> Local hydro shop brews compost tea twice a week....makes it simple
> ...


 glad i'm not the only one thinking CaMg was a bit weak.....switched to Botanicare Calplex+Huvega and so far so good but it seems like
i will be going thru those bottles pretty quick.

how often and how much of CaMg were you using summitoker?


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## NightbirdX (May 5, 2011)

Should I worry about the GO CaMg+ raising my ppm a whole lot? I've been adding in 1-2 tsp/gal every other feeding and was thinking that they need more.


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## summitoker (May 5, 2011)

Hey nightbirdx i have been reading a lot of your posts. The best advice i can give is take your ppm meter and smash it with a hammer. Its hard to forget all the hydro nonsense when we have been conditioned over all these years to think growing plants is some exact science. It sounds to me like your ladies are heavy nitrogen feeders. Try and get a bottle of natures nectar nitrogen if not give a full strength vega feeding. Ppm meters wont pick up a real number with what we are doing. I feed 2 tsp a gallon of cal mag all the time some like 3. Around week 4 some ladies want extra nitrogen they get 10 ml flower and 6 ml veg per gallon. Throw out the books and give the ladies what they want not some prefabbed schedule.


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## upthearsenal (May 6, 2011)

View attachment 1587006
Strawberry Cough in a vegan-only amended soil mix (promix base), not quite "water only" yet. Although I'm getting close, this time it was just one feeding at 10 days of 12/12 and another at 5wks. 

View attachment 1587007
some vegan RP Headband.


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## beeznutz (May 6, 2011)

summitoker said:


> Hey nightbirdx i have been reading a lot of your posts. The best advice i can give is take your ppm meter and smash it with a hammer. Its hard to forget all the hydro nonsense when we have been conditioned over all these years to think growing plants is some exact science. It sounds to me like your ladies are heavy nitrogen feeders. Try and get a bottle of natures nectar nitrogen if not give a full strength vega feeding. Ppm meters wont pick up a real number with what we are doing. I feed 2 tsp a gallon of cal mag all the time some like 3. Around week 4 some ladies want extra nitrogen they get 10 ml flower and 6 ml veg per gallon. Throw out the books and give the ladies what they want not some prefabbed schedule.



\ keep running into ppl saying the same when doing organics- so what rules do you follow if any?
i'm ready to ditch my meter, got rid of ph one already, just not quite understanding how to go about feeding schedule.....
like, if i follow the manufacturer's instructions say GO, and it says 10ml per gl then should i ever go more than that?if so when?
and then if you take into account the other supps, micros, etc which add up the ppms then should i worry about being too much?
should i alternate between feed with basic macros and other micros+supps?

i'm still locked to the ppm meter and not sure what to do....


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## coonword (May 6, 2011)

beez i feel ya the ppm and ph meter can really piss ppl off...im doing a aero setup got my ppm at the desired level my ph meter gave me a false reading i thought it was at 5.8 tunrns out it was really lik 4.9-5.0 almost lost everything got the ph back to 5.8 and things are picking up(a week later) and im still gunna have to get rid of a few due to too much stress...if you find some good info or ne thing pm i always like to learn new stuff and the best of luck to you on the subject


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## Wolverine97 (May 6, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> \ keep running into ppl saying the same when doing organics- so what rules do you follow if any?
> i'm ready to ditch my meter, got rid of ph one already, just not quite understanding how to go about feeding schedule.....
> like, if i follow the manufacturer's instructions say GO, and it says 10ml per gl then should i ever go more than that?if so when?
> and then if you take into account the other supps, micros, etc which add up the ppms then should i worry about being too much?
> ...


Three words: read your plants.


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## NightbirdX (May 6, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Three words: read your plants.


Ya this definitely the case, but learning what your plant is telling you is the hard part. You may see that something is going on but at first it can be hard to diagnose. The more experience you get with a strain or nutrients, the easier it becomes. I don't really come from a hydro background, but I've had problems with burn and deficiency in the past, so when I start to push the bounds of recommended dosages, I like to get some input. I'm all about giving the plant what it wants. Like was said earlier, learning to not worry about your PPM and schedules is the hard part. Once you can start winging it and reading your plant better things really start to come together. I have come up with a rough schedule to follow and adjust accordingly depending on what I see that the plant needs. I just have never used any of the other stuff like Bio Weed, Bio Bud, or Diamond Black, and am trying to circumvent any problems by understanding it better before I introduce it into my regimen. 

I know it sounds like I have a lot of problems, but I mostly just throw out ideas to you guys to get some info from the sounding board. I may have an idea or be thinking something and like to pick your brains to see if I'm on the right track. My stuff has actually been coming out fantastic. Each month my yields get higher and higher. The quality has been incredible the whole time. I think I'm finally getting it more dialed in. 

I am a very unsatisfied grower, and I find that to be a good thing. There is always room for improvement, so I like to bounce ideas off you guys to see what you think. 

I must admit, since I started frequenting these forums my knowledge has increased incredibly. I remember reading the 420 article that Kushman wrote in High Times, and I really had no idea what he was talking about. I took what I could from the article and have been building on that since then with the assistance of you guys. I started with some BioCanna and some soil, and from then to now, my grow style has changed completely, lol.


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## Wolverine97 (May 6, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Ya this definitely the case, but learning what your plant is telling you is the hard part. You may see that something is going on but at first it can be hard to diagnose. The more experience you get with a strain or nutrients, the easier it becomes. I don't really come from a hydro background, but I've had problems with burn and deficiency in the past, so when I start to push the bounds of recommended dosages, I like to get some input. I'm all about giving the plant what it wants. Like was said earlier, learning to not worry about your PPM and schedules is the hard part. Once you can start winging it and reading your plant better things really start to come together. I have come up with a rough schedule to follow and adjust accordingly depending on what I see that the plant needs. I just have never used any of the other stuff like Bio Weed, Bio Bud, or Diamond Black, and am trying to circumvent any problems by understanding it better before I introduce it into my regimen.
> 
> I know it sounds like I have a lot of problems, but I mostly just throw out ideas to you guys to get some info from the sounding board. I may have an idea or be thinking something and like to pick your brains to see if I'm on the right track. My stuff has actually been coming out fantastic. Each month my yields get higher and higher. The quality has been incredible the whole time. I think I'm finally getting it more dialed in.
> 
> ...


Wassup Nightbird. You're on the right track there, keep soaking it in and you'll be an old hand before you know it.


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## NightbirdX (May 6, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Wassup Nightbird. You're on the right track there, keep soaking it in and you'll be an old hand before you know it.


Ya I know, patience is a virtue, lol.


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## Matt Rize (May 6, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Should I worry about the GO CaMg+ raising my ppm a whole lot? I've been adding in 1-2 tsp/gal every other feeding and was thinking that they need more.


dont worry about it. Biocanna is way lacking in CalMag. if your plants are burning thats one thing. if not, no worries. I just switched to GO's CalMag from the Calplex Huvega combo. My calplex keep separating. 

I'll give yall my current line up.

Soil mix: Bioterra plus, organic vegan mix, charcoal, neem cake, dolomite lime, VAM from BioAg
Nutes: Main lineup - Vega/Flores/BioBoost, Hygrozyme, TM-7 from BioAg, CalMag, Molasses, proTekt.
Supplements - Aloe Vera juice, Yucca juice, NN Nitrogen, HN 0-10-0, Soluble seaweeds from BioAg and Technaflora. Ful-Power, 50% humic from Bioag.


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## Matt Rize (May 6, 2011)

Check out this Vegan Organic Green Crack hash


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## spivak420 (May 9, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> dont worry about it. Biocanna is way lacking in CalMag. if your plants are burning thats one thing. if not, no worries. I just switched to GO's CalMag from the Calplex Huvega combo. My calplex keep separating.
> 
> I'll give yall my current line up.
> 
> ...


Mr. Rize sir, I'd like to first say that I greatly admire the work you are doing and the wisdom you spread through avenues like this. 
I was hoping you answer a couple questions I have about your nutrient/supplement regimen...
Regarding the BioCanna line: do u follow BioCannas feeding schedule exactly, or do u modify to fit your needs?

Which brings me to my next question: Do u have a set schedule/program for supplements you utilize?
The way I understand it BioCanna (and Hygrozyme) is a complete nutrient regimen, lacking only cal/mag. 
If u could explain in what order you use the supplements you list at the various stages of growth. 
And do u follow each separate supp. manufacturers directions for use exactly, and if not, what is your schedule for supp. use?

Thank you in advance for having patience with my noob questions.

D


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## Matt Rize (May 9, 2011)

spivak420 said:


> Mr. Rize sir, I'd like to first say that I greatly admire the work you are doing and the wisdom you spread through avenues like this.
> I was hoping you answer a couple questions I have about your nutrient/supplement regimen...
> Regarding the BioCanna line: do u follow BioCannas feeding schedule exactly, or do u modify to fit your needs?
> 
> ...


I use the Biocanna feeding schedule, loosely, and generally on the lower end because I run 600s and lower CO2 levels. The last 10 days I feed nothing but plain water. I transition slowly from the vega to the flores starting about 2 weeks into flower. This transition occurs over about 3 weeks. This transition should vary depending on how long it takes for your plants to flower. 

I use BioAg TM-7 (micronutes and humic) once a week with my feedings. If I'm not using the TM-7, then I'm using BioAg Humic (50%) with my feedings. Also the aloe vera juice once a week.

I use CalMag basically every feeding until plain water time, although truth be told, I drop it earlier than the biocanna for better tasting smoke. I also use ProTekt almost every feeding, low levels.

I use hygrozyme once a week, but not until after my final transplant because it's not needed or doing anything until your roots get old.

In flower, I drop the 50% Humic, and replace that with BioAg's seaweed/humic/micronute product, then a little HN 0-10-0. That's my PK boost. 

I limit myself to one bottle of Bioboost per cycle, and use that from 12/12 until it's gone. You can't really overdo it, but for $100/bottle its just not worth using that much. 

The NN Nitrogen gets used as needed, depends on if/when the plants asks for it.

Prevention foliar is a combo from www.neemresource.com. I use their neem oil and karanja oil, emulsified with pro tekt, then in RO water, then add Yucca extract. 

For foliar feeding its mostly just Fulvic acid and micronutes.


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## upthearsenal (May 9, 2011)

Hey Matt, how important do you think the exp. date on the BioBoost is? I mean, obviously it's there for a reason but I think I might have some left after the date, should I toss it, would I be good for a couple weeks? Maybe I should keep it in the fridge? I've never had fertilizers with an exp. date before.............


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## Wetdog (May 9, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> dont worry about it. Biocanna is way lacking in CalMag. if your plants are burning thats one thing. if not, no worries. I just switched to GO's CalMag from the Calplex Huvega combo. My calplex keep separating.
> 
> I'll give yall my current line up.
> 
> ...


Matt

Reading this makes me smile, we've both sorta grown (pun intended), with our mixes. I was the 'old school' blood, bone, kelp, amended mix and you were the 'new school' bottled vegan stuff only (for the most part).

Now, I see you're doing many more soil amendments, towards my OS style, and for my part, I've lost the blood in favor of vegan N sources, mainly alfalfa meal and I'm starting a Comfrey bed. I have the bed, the Comfrey roots should be here this week. I still have to use some bone meal, because I cannot source soft rock phosphate locally. I do use the granulated Rock phosphate, mostly, but it is soooo slow to break down, I still need some bone meal, which isn't that fast either. No fish bone meal either here. Bummer !!

Still don't mess with bottled nutes, too pricey, but am working towards just vegan soil amendments.

Getting there.

Wet


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## spivak420 (May 9, 2011)

Thank you so much, I have been brought out of the dark and into the light. 

You mentioned that you use less than Cannas recommended amounts, because you run 600w and CO2....
If you were using 1000w instead of 600w, would the amounts of nutrients used be increased significantly?
Am I reading correctly, that using CO2 allows for lower levels of nutrients required?

What size pots do you use for the final transplant, and what type of pot do you prefer?

I have read that there are customs issues perventing the sale of BioTerra soil in the US, is this correct?
And if so what soil do you use in place of 'Terra? What is your opinon on Pro Mix #4, and is it an adequate substitute for 'Terra?

many thanks and much respect

D


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## Matt Rize (May 9, 2011)

Wetdog said:


> Matt
> 
> Reading this makes me smile, we've both sorta grown (pun intended), with our mixes. I was the 'old school' blood, bone, kelp, amended mix and you were the 'new school' bottled vegan stuff only (for the most part).
> 
> ...


Wetdog, 

You know I love the way you grow! The BioTerra Plus I use has bonemeal in it as well. I can't seem to get enough P/Ca without. I'm cutting back on the costs, especially in veg. I've been talking to lots of old school growers and they've convinced me to go more middle of the road with my grow style. UptheA has helped too, he's working on a vegan soil mix that needs little to no supplementation. Rize UP!


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## Matt Rize (May 9, 2011)

spivak420 said:


> Thank you so much, I have been brought out of the dark and into the light.
> 
> You mentioned that you use less than Cannas recommended amounts, because you run 600w and CO2....
> If you were using 1000w instead of 600w, would the amounts of nutrients used be increased significantly?
> ...


Misunderstanding, What I meant to convey is that I keep my CO2 levels lower than most CO2 growers, Between 600 and 800ppm instead of the usual 1000+ppm. So I use lets nutes than a super high CO2 growers. And yes, I find that plants under 1000s watters need more food and grow bigger/faster than plants under 600s. I think over growing the plants leads to bad tasting herb so I slow it down a little on purpose.

I'm finishing in 5 gallon post now. My veg pots are mesh bottom, but I can't afford the 5 gallon mesh bottom pots so I'm using the standard with extra holes drilled.

The Bioterra Plus has those issues. No worries, the other precharged medias are comparable. Sunshine #4 is precharged (a little) so should work. I've been amending my mix now with more food and other stuff listed a few posts back.


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## Wetdog (May 9, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Wetdog,
> 
> You know I love the way you grow! The BioTerra Plus I use has bonemeal in it as well. I can't seem to get enough P/Ca without. I'm cutting back on the costs, especially in veg. I've been talking to lots of old school growers and they've convinced me to go more middle of the road with my grow style. UptheA has helped too, he's working on a vegan soil mix that needs little to no supplementation. Rize UP!


We all get to the same barn eventually. LOL

Always evolving.

Wet


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## beeznutz (May 10, 2011)

wolverine, i hear ya man, def spending my time learning the plants and one thing i've learned is that i'm gonna ditch this super haze i've been growing, it always gave me troubles although it does produce quality and quantity [first crop i had almost 8oz from one plant]. also, my i think my situation is a bit complicated as i'm trying to find ways to recycle media and minimize waste which is why i'm doing the hempy buckets as opposed to everybody doing soil which is great if u can reuse it [i can't].

i'm right there with nightbird, just bouncing questions around this thread for feedback and excellent insight from pro growers....
you dont even know how excited i was to find this thread about growing vegan/organic [nobody does it around where i'm at] and to see how many ppl are interested in participating. i have to give it up to the professor for not only starting this thread and sharing his knowledge with the rest of us on this virtual community but also for being so active in the real community and teaching ppl about the importance of organics so.... HEAR, HEAR !

matt, thx for posting ur list [been waiting for that], it came right on time too because i was looking for a good source of P and i see u have listed Bloom Natural 0-10-0 in there so i will be getting that asap. also, i see ur switching from Calplx to Ca/Mg - what exactly was the issue? separating as in when u mix ur batch? other than that how did u like it? because i'm the opposite, i've switched from Ca/Mg to Calpx/Huvega.....


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## Matt Rize (May 10, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> wolverine, i hear ya man, def spending my time learning the plants and one thing i've learned is that i'm gonna ditch this super haze i've been growing, it always gave me troubles although it does produce quality and quantity [first crop i had almost 8oz from one plant]. also, my i think my situation is a bit complicated as i'm trying to find ways to recycle media and minimize waste which is why i'm doing the hempy buckets as opposed to everybody doing soil which is great if u can reuse it [i can't].
> 
> i'm right there with nightbird, just bouncing questions around this thread for feedback and excellent insight from pro growers....
> you dont even know how excited i was to find this thread about growing vegan/organic [nobody does it around where i'm at] and to see how many ppl are interested in participating. i have to give it up to the professor for not only starting this thread and sharing his knowledge with the rest of us on this virtual community but also for being so active in the real community and teaching ppl about the importance of organics so.... HEAR, HEAR !
> ...


Thanks for the kind words. I'm not a real accredited professor, but ya know, I teach.

My Calplex was separating. The Ca formed clay like aggregates and was a b*tch to keep breaking up, making it hard to believe it's in solution. Maybe it was an old batch of calplex.


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## NightbirdX (May 11, 2011)

I picked up some Diamond Black, BioBud, and Thrive Alive B1 to add into the mix. The Diamond Black says to add a TBS/gal to the mix, but not how often. I have seen at other places that it should only be used once a month. Whats the general consensus? 

I also need to go pick up some more mycorrhizae. I have been using Plant Success soluble mycorrhizae and was thinking of getting something more comprehensive. Something that give the microbes, but also gives other added benefits. I was thinking of checking out either Mykos 30, Subculture M and B, or Great White Mycorhizzae. I was also thinking of some Earth Juice Microblast. Any thoughts on any of these? 

And that Hash looked insane Matt, lol.


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## Digispliff (May 11, 2011)

NightbirdX: I've used Earth Juice Microblast before, and always been happy with my results. Ditto with Great White, but I've heard lots of good things about Mykos&#8212;I was thinking about giving it a try soon.


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## upthearsenal (May 11, 2011)

I use microblast, it is what it is. (little bottle has lasted me forever)


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## Wolverine97 (May 11, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> I picked up some Diamond Black, BioBud, and Thrive Alive B1 to add into the mix. The Diamond Black says to add a TBS/gal to the mix, but not how often. I have seen at other places that it should only be used once a month. Whats the general consensus?
> 
> I also need to go pick up some more mycorrhizae. I have been using Plant Success soluble mycorrhizae and was thinking of getting something more comprehensive. Something that give the microbes, but also gives other added benefits. I was thinking of checking out either Mykos 30, Subculture M and B, or Great White Mycorhizzae. I was also thinking of some Earth Juice Microblast. Any thoughts on any of these?
> 
> And that Hash looked insane Matt, lol.


I use the Diamond Black about once a week, sometimes every other week. The Bio Bud is great, but I wouldn't combine with the Bio Boost at the same time. I love Microblast, it's a great all around micronutrient, I use it once every three weeks or so.

On the mycorhizzae and other bennies; Great White is ok, but for mic's I greatly prefer Mykos from Xtreme Gardening, though I do use other innoculants to get a good trichoderma population as well.


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## NightbirdX (May 11, 2011)

Thanks for the great info. I'll probably go with the Microblast and Mykos. What is wrong with the BioBud and the BioBoost? I was told that the BioBud and the Thrive Alive basically make a sort of Organic Hardener for the buds, and a PK boost in early Bud, which was kinda what I was looking for.


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## Wolverine97 (May 11, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Thanks for the great info. I'll probably go with the Microblast and Mykos. What is wrong with the BioBud and the BioBoost? I was told that the BioBud and the Thrive Alive basically make a sort of Organic Hardener for the buds, and a PK boost in early Bud, which was kinda what I was looking for.


Nothing wrong with them, I just wouldn't mix the two since they both accomplish the same thing and there could be potential antagonism between them.


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## NightbirdX (May 11, 2011)

Hmm okay. So I guess I'll use the BioBud for early bloom until I start integrating the BioBoost into the mix at week 2-3?


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## beeznutz (May 11, 2011)

speaking of PK boost, is that something u guys use throughout flowering or just in the beginning ?


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## S.V.T. (May 11, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> I picked up some Diamond Black, BioBud, and Thrive Alive B1 to add into the mix. The Diamond Black says to add a TBS/gal to the mix, but not how often. I have seen at other places that it should only be used once a month. Whats the general consensus?
> 
> I also need to go pick up some more mycorrhizae. I have been using Plant Success soluble mycorrhizae and was thinking of getting something more comprehensive. Something that give the microbes, but also gives other added benefits. I was thinking of checking out either Mykos 30, Subculture M and B, or Great White Mycorhizzae. I was also thinking of some Earth Juice Microblast. Any thoughts on any of these?
> 
> And that Hash looked insane Matt, lol.


I use a couple of the products you mention above. The thrive alive b-1 I use 1ml/gallon every watering that I feed through veg and until the second or third week of flowering. After that I ramp it up to 3ml/gallon for the fruiting stage and cut it out at week 7/8. It's worked great. I also soak my rooting cubes in it for a day or so before taking cuttings.

I've been using the Mykos (not the mykos 30) and it's worked wonders in my garden. In addition to the mykos I use vital earth's glacier rock dust (trace elements) and have found this combination to be amazing.


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## Wolverine97 (May 11, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Hmm okay. So I guess I'll use the BioBud for early bloom until I start integrating the BioBoost into the mix at week 2-3?


I guess that might work, but I'm honestly not 100% sure. They both do the same thing (stimulate flowering response and supposedly allow for more efficient use of nutrients), so I'd be inclined to go with one or the other. Myself, I use Bio Bud and love it, especially for less than half the price of Bio Boost.


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## beeznutz (May 11, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I guess that might work, but I'm honestly not 100% sure. They both do the same thing (stimulate flowering response and supposedly allow for more efficient use of nutrients), so I'd be inclined to go with one or the other. Myself, I use Bio Bud and love it, especially for less than half the price of Bio Boost.


you know, i would love to get the bioboost but at almost $100 for 1L for a sugary product that i don't even know what's inside [i have yet to find a list of the ingredients]....don't know man, i think i'll stick with the biobud.


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## Wolverine97 (May 11, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> you know, i would love to get the bioboost but at almost $100 for 1L for a sugary product that i don't even know what's inside [i have yet to find a list of the ingredients]....don't know man, i think i'll stick with the biobud.


I agree, that's what I was trying to say.


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## beeznutz (May 12, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I agree, that's what I was trying to say.


hey what's ur take on the BioBud? do u use it throughout flowering and how much of it? 
i'm 1 month flowering and pushing it at 5ml/gl......i'm thinking going even more soon....


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## Wolverine97 (May 12, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> hey what's ur take on the BioBud? do u use it throughout flowering and how much of it?
> i'm 1 month flowering and pushing it at 5ml/gl......i'm thinking going even more soon....


Is this a serious question? I like it, a lot. I run it at 5ml/gal and that seems to do very well in my setup.

Edit: not trying to sound like a dick (which I do sometimes), but I've been pimping that shit all through this thread. I love the stuff, and the whole GO lineup.


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## beeznutz (May 12, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Is this a serious question? I like it, a lot. I run it at 5ml/gal and that seems to do very well in my setup.
> 
> Edit: not trying to sound like a dick (which I do sometimes), but I've been pimping that shit all through this thread. I love the stuff, and the whole GO lineup.


k, cool..... yeah, I guess you have been pimping it a bit


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## Matt Rize (May 13, 2011)

jack h, 45 to 120. ice water extract aka solvent-less wax  Rize up RIU!


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## Matt Rize (May 13, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Hey Matt, how important do you think the exp. date on the BioBoost is? I mean, obviously it's there for a reason but I think I might have some left after the date, should I toss it, would I be good for a couple weeks? Maybe I should keep it in the fridge? I've never had fertilizers with an exp. date before.............


 My rep contacted Canna, they claim the Bio line is good for a year after expiration :/


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## Matt Rize (May 13, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> you know, i would love to get the bioboost but at almost $100 for 1L for a sugary product that i don't even know what's inside [i have yet to find a list of the ingredients]....don't know man, i think i'll stick with the biobud.


yeah, it's a big leap of faith. 

Y'all were talking about inoculants. I'm using www.BioAg.com myco. It's whole spores instead of fragments and has twice the shelf life. It's also just species that work with Cannabis spp. (whereas Great White works with a broad range of plants ie conifer trees). Dr Faust and Dr Zadow (who own and run BioAg) will answer questions right away, and they are open about helping indoor medical marijuana gardens. Whereas Canna will only respond to me directly when I threaten them using the power of this thread  and you can't mention cannabis


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## Wolverine97 (May 13, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> yeah, it's a big leap of faith.
> 
> Y'all were talking about inoculants. I'm using www.BioAg.com myco. It's whole spores instead of fragments and has twice the shelf life. It's also just species that work with Cannabis spp. (whereas Great White works with a broad range of plants ie conifer trees). Dr Faust and Dr Zadow (who own and run BioAg) will answer questions right away, and they are open about helping indoor medical marijuana gardens. Whereas Canna will only respond to me directly when I threaten them using the power of this thread  and you can't mention cannabis


BioAg makes good stuff for sure. Xtreme Gardening also uses whole spores, not propagules in their Mykos which is much better overall. Even with only one species in there I'm getting much better results from their Mykos than I ever got using Great White.


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## jethead (May 14, 2011)

Hey Matt and eveyone, I just bought Gen. Org. Go Box and will be using it for 4 clones I got on May 11 which I planted right away. I watered only and today I fed with 1/2 strength of what the feed chart says. I was wondering if and when I go up to full strength , do I continue to use the chart all the way through the grow ? Thans very much for the support. This is my first organic grow and I am looking forward to see how it turns out some tastey strains I'm growing. ( Afwreck, Purple TrainWreck, Purple OG Kush and Sour Diesel. Thanks again.
Peace, jethead


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## Matt Rize (May 17, 2011)

http://podcasts.pcrcollective.org/CannabisCuts/CannabisCuts-20110517.mp3
Check out today's Cannabis Cuts with Deejay Wiid. Sarah Russo of ProjectCBD brings some knowledge, and I scored a Harlequin cutting.

I do a brief appearance 1 hour and 49 minutes into the show.


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## beeznutz (May 18, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> http://podcasts.pcrcollective.org/CannabisCuts/CannabisCuts-20110517.mp3
> Check out today's Cannabis Cuts with Deejay Wiid. Sarah Russo of ProjectCBD brings some knowledge, and I scored a Harlequin cutting.
> 
> I do a brief appearance 1 hour and 49 minutes into the show.


 ohh mahn.....send some of that my way !!


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## Matt Rize (May 20, 2011)

I <3 hash... jack h this time


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## NightbirdX (May 20, 2011)

Looks great man, I have 4 jacks coming down this next week. They didn't produce well, but damn they look amazing. I'll keep it around for some personal.  I also had a pretty interesting discussion with my grow store buddy about Canna and BioCanna. The Canna rep was in and my buddy had asked him some questions that I had bombarded him with, basically asking why customers (*read me) are having so many problems with early nitrogen deficiency in early flowering, and basically what the guy said was that the BioVega is having problems and they actually recommend that people use Terra Vega for the Veg and then go to Bio Flores for the Flowering cycle because the Vega is highly lacking in Nitrogen and you have deficiency problems because the plant does not have enough Nitrogen to store, so when you flip it to flowering, an already deficient plant is looking for Nitrogen that isn't there. I found this interesting and a lot of things became clearer after I talked to my buddy. I am going in tomorrow to see if I can catch the guy while he is there again to talk to him personally about the BioCanna line. 

I have tried to get in contact with Canna about the BioCanna line and the last time I checked they were not accepting questions... If my end product hadn't turned out good, I probably would have dropped Canna based on Customer service alone. The answers I have gotten from them in the past have been vague and not generally useful. 

I guess I'll be adding some Nature's Nectar Nitrogen to my veg line up. It was pretty interesting because lately I have been having 2 problems. My plants were Nitrogen deficient, but they looked on the verge of nutrient burn also. I upped my Vega to counteract the Nitrogen deficiency, but started to push the levels of my Potassium and Phosphorus which cause the mottled spots on the leaves that looked like they were about to burn. It was pretty interesting to hear that stuff today though. Hopefully I'll be able to catch this so called "Canna Rep." I thought that this elusive species was all but extinct. I was beginning to think that Ralph B. was the only person that worked at Canna, lol.


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## RPsmoke420 (May 20, 2011)

Some solid info there. I remember hearing that the BioCanna line is intentionally low on specific nutrients that are supposed to be found in their BioTerra Plus soil. But because that soil is not available for the most part.... you are left with deficiencies. I also have to run different amounts of nitrogen from Nature's Nectar. The more I think about it, the more I just want to go back to making simple soils, and watering with compost teas and such. Kinda over these "organic" bottled nutes... maybe going back to something more simple... just toking and typing


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## NightbirdX (May 20, 2011)

I feel you man, I think about just going to Super Soil all the time, lol. I do like being able to tweak my nutrients and add what I want, its just a matter of figuring out how much to use and when, I'll get there. lol


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## Matt Rize (May 20, 2011)

Or use an OMRI Nitrogen supplement with the Biocanna Vega... that's what we have been doing all along. Canna Terra... while that will work incredibly well, is far from vegan or organic. Ive also been upping slow release Nitrogen in the form of Neem Cake and a mixed vegan meal.


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## Matt Rize (May 20, 2011)

a little bird told me kushman's veganic veg forumla is going to be ready for testing this week.

KK's movie is almost ready, and the book is in editing stages. this week Ava Rize is coming out to read thru with us.

And I'm teaching at organicann this saturday 11-1 if anyone is around. Rize up!


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## Da Almighty Jew (May 20, 2011)

Matt Rize, what about growing cannabis strictly with cannabis???


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## Matt Rize (May 20, 2011)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> Matt Rize, what about growing cannabis strictly with cannabis???


you mean fermenting cannabis and feeding it your plants. and/or a compost made of solely cannabis? pretty wild


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## beeznutz (May 20, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Looks great man, I have 4 jacks coming down this next week. They didn't produce well, but damn they look amazing. I'll keep it around for some personal.  I also had a pretty interesting discussion with my grow store buddy about Canna and BioCanna. The Canna rep was in and my buddy had asked him some questions that I had bombarded him with, basically asking why customers (*read me) are having so many problems with early nitrogen deficiency in early flowering, and basically what the guy said was that the BioVega is having problems and they actually recommend that people use Terra Vega for the Veg and then go to Bio Flores for the Flowering cycle because the Vega is highly lacking in Nitrogen and you have deficiency problems because the plant does not have enough Nitrogen to store, so when you flip it to flowering, an already deficient plant is looking for Nitrogen that isn't there. I found this interesting and a lot of things became clearer after I talked to my buddy. I am going in tomorrow to see if I can catch the guy while he is there again to talk to him personally about the BioCanna line.
> 
> I have tried to get in contact with Canna about the BioCanna line and the last time I checked they were not accepting questions... If my end product hadn't turned out good, I probably would have dropped Canna based on Customer service alone. The answers I have gotten from them in the past have been vague and not generally useful.
> 
> I guess I'll be adding some Nature's Nectar Nitrogen to my veg line up. It was pretty interesting because lately I have been having 2 problems. My plants were Nitrogen deficient, but they looked on the verge of nutrient burn also. I upped my Vega to counteract the Nitrogen deficiency, but started to push the levels of my Potassium and Phosphorus which cause the mottled spots on the leaves that looked like they were about to burn. It was pretty interesting to hear that stuff today though. Hopefully I'll be able to catch this so called "Canna Rep." I thought that this elusive species was all but extinct. I was beginning to think that Ralph B. was the only person that worked at Canna, lol.



ur not alone.... i had the same problem with GO GROW and ended up adding NN Nitrogen- did the trick. 
don really have a prob with nutes being on the low end of food because u can always add some extra, 
depending on ur set up and strain. ideally we all b buying a product that has the perfect ratio but let's face it,
everybody has his/her own way of growing not to mention the explosion of strains which requires careful attention
if you want to nail it down. 
im running out of nutes and ill b ordering Bio Canna line of food, wanna give it a try and see how it does in my set up.
bout a month away from finishing this crop, super haze+mr. nice [not the seed co, some private strain i got my hands on].


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## beeznutz (May 20, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> a little bird told me kushman's veganic veg forumla is going to be ready for testing this week.
> 
> KK's movie is almost ready, and the book is in editing stages.


ohh shite! is he going the full 9yds? commercially available? that'll b interesting....any inside u wanna spill??


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## SlightlyVaped (May 20, 2011)

Any thoughts on Vermicrop's Coconot instead of Bio Terra Plus?

As that seems to be available at my local shop and looks like a good substitute but no one I know has any experience with it.


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## Wolverine97 (May 20, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> I feel you man, I think about just going to Super Soil all the time, lol. I do like being able to tweak my nutrients and add what I want, its just a matter of figuring out how much to use and when, I'll get there. lol


Meet in the middle. That's what I'm doing now, running about a 30% strength super soil (my own recipe) and feeding with General Organics full line (excluding the fish) at close to full strength along with a few other additives. It's great. I give straight water once a week, and for the final week, it's going beautifully. The colors and flavors I get in that last week are really amazing. I am having a few issues with my Super Silver Haze (Neville's Haze pheno), but this is my first run with it so it's somewhat to be expected. The biggest advantage for me is that I don't have to feed during veg at all, just innoculants and some kelp.


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## Matt Rize (May 20, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> ohh shite! is he going the full 9yds? commercially available? that'll b interesting....any inside u wanna spill??


He's going for a stronger version of the current line up for veganic nutes (bio bizz, general organics, biocanna). As we have seen, they are lacking in either N, or P or Ca, or whatever. I don't know much really, I'm not involved by choice. I'm going the opposite direction with more: compost, worm castings, and plant meals/cakes. More DIY fermented plant extracts, ie making my own nutes from scratch.


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## Matt Rize (May 20, 2011)

SlightlyVaped said:


> Any thoughts on Vermicrop's Coconot instead of Bio Terra Plus?
> 
> As that seems to be available at my local shop and looks like a good substitute but no one I know has any experience with it.


I tried it, hated it. KK likes it, I'm not sure how that works but whatever.


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## SlightlyVaped (May 20, 2011)

Wow hate, that's a strong word. 

I guess I won't be giving it a try...


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## NightbirdX (May 21, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Meet in the middle. That's what I'm doing now, running about a 30% strength super soil (my own recipe) and feeding with General Organics full line (excluding the fish) at close to full strength along with a few other additives. It's great. I give straight water once a week, and for the final week, it's going beautifully. The colors and flavors I get in that last week are really amazing. I am having a few issues with my Super Silver Haze (Neville's Haze pheno), but this is my first run with it so it's somewhat to be expected. The biggest advantage for me is that I don't have to feed during veg at all, just innoculants and some kelp.


Ya this is what I am working towards, I find the more time I spend with my set up, the more holes I see in my grow, which I then move to fill. Gaining valuable experience in organic farming. It is a pain to learn the hard way, but all things worth knowing take time.  Lesson 1.) Calcium, adding lime to soil now. Lesson 2.) Nitrogen, I'll start adding some Cottonseed Meal or Worm Castings to the mix. What kind of amendment dosage would you recommend to start? I typically start plants in 1gal pots and then transfer into 7-20 Gallon pots.


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## NightbirdX (May 21, 2011)

There was something else that I have been kicking around. I know that I am not the sharpest tool in the box, I am quite blunt, lol. So bear with me if this seems elementary to you. I have had a few issues I have been addressing, the first of which was the Nitrogen, but my plants that I just flipped to flowering are showing Phosphorus deficiency also. I am thinking that this is because the plant is craving a lot more P and K going into flowering and I'm not really adding any Flores until week 2-3. My only source of P/K would be Bio Bud until Flores is introduced, and BioBud doesn't have a lot of P in it anyways. Looking at the chart and after talking with my buddy about what the Canna guy said, I have been thinking that as soon as I flip, I should just switch to Flores and keep supplementing with NN Nitrogen until around week 4 of flowering, to address the Nitrogen issues, but to also eliminate the P def. Does this sound like I am on the right track?


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## Wolverine97 (May 21, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> There was something else that I have been kicking around. I know that I am not the sharpest tool in the box, I am quite blunt, lol. So bear with me if this seems elementary to you. I have had a few issues I have been addressing, the first of which was the Nitrogen, but my plants that I just flipped to flowering are showing Phosphorus deficiency also. I am thinking that this is because the plant is craving a lot more P and K going into flowering and I'm not really adding any Flores until week 2-3. My only source of P/K would be Bio Bud until Flores is introduced, and BioBud doesn't have a lot of P in it anyways. Looking at the chart and after talking with my buddy about what the Canna guy said, I have been thinking that as soon as I flip, I should just switch to Flores and keep supplementing with NN Nitrogen until around week 4 of flowering, to address the Nitrogen issues, but to also eliminate the P def. Does this sound like I am on the right track?


I'd say yes, you're on the right track, but I don't rely on the Bio Bud to provide any actual nutrient value. I start with bloom food as soon as I switch to 12/12, but I also give them a little extra nitrogen during the first three weeks of flowering. Sounds like you're getting there...


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## Da Almighty Jew (May 21, 2011)

Hey Matt, yea i have a few test plants that i would like to make some fermented plant extracts with.
How would i go about doing that?
Do you think i should put it in my aerated compost tea.
IMO i think that the leaves should have an adequate supply of npk and all other micro and trace


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## SlightlyVaped (May 21, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> I just saw this short article on Transition Stage Feeding by KK that might help:
> 
> http://medicalmarijuana.com/experts/expert/title.cfm?artID=61
> 
> Also, for veganic P/K boosters I believe Matt has mentioned Humboldt Nutrients Natural Bloom (0-10-0) and Technaflora Soluble Seaweed (1-1-16).


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## Matt Rize (May 22, 2011)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> Hey Matt, yea i have a few test plants that i would like to make some fermented plant extracts with.
> How would i go about doing that?
> Do you think i should put it in my aerated compost tea.
> IMO i think that the leaves should have an adequate supply of npk and all other micro and trace


I'm not the fermenting expert. I do know that FPEs are not added to teas usually. And what plants, and which parts of those certain plants is very important. I'll try to find some good info. There is a thread here on russian comfrey FPR by spanish fly. that would be a good place to start.


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## NightbirdX (May 23, 2011)

So.... I GOT A CAMERA! Lol, I'll be starting up some stuff soon for you guys to see what I've been up to and bugging you all with questions,  I have had a busy busy week. Girl drama, a wedding in which I went to alone because of the girl drama, a fun filled night of drunken revelry and memory rehash with a bunch of Marine buddies. I did convince my buddies to chop 3 of my plants while I was gone, and I finished the night tonight by taking down a Free Leonard (Butterscotch Hawaiian x G13,) and the first batch of Jack Herer I started from seed. Everything looked really really good. Trim is loaded up for hash and buds are on the racks. Back to another fun filled week.  

I must again say thank you to all of you guys who have helped me and let me bounce ideas off of you. My quality and yields are constantly improving. My first batch was averaging 1.875 oz, my second set of plants averaged 2oz a plant, and I'm looking to hopefully get 3oz/plant from the Jacks and GDP. I may even get 4 from my Free Leonards. It is great to see that all the hard work, studying, reading, and early onset of gray hair is finally paying off. 

I will have to take a picture of my drying rack to show you guys my comparison. I had 2 GDP one I grew with Fox Farm, and the other I used my BioCanna lineup. Both turned out good, but the BioCanna is hands down higher yielding, more resinous, stinkier, and a LOT more purple. The Fox Farm plant was a very very dark purple almost looking green, but the BioCanna plant is almost magenta, looking a lot like classic pics of Purple Haze. Needless to say I convince the person that I answer to that we need to be running my lineup over what he wanted me to use. After tonight and trimming up my plants, seeing the difference, he asked me why I didn't do it months ago, lol.


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## beeznutz (May 23, 2011)

just wanna post this out ...... at some point i was doing a search for pk boost and stumbled on this forum
where somebody was saying how enzyme products like Hygrozyme are made out of chicken poop so i contacted Hygrozyme, just in case,
and they did reassure me their product it is indeed 100% vegan.


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## Matt Rize (May 26, 2011)

Here's what I've been up to. My articles are being published now. My most recent:
http://medicalmarijuana.com/experts/expert/title.cfm?artID=109


Redefining the Root-Soil Food Web for Indoors
Published by Matt Rize for medicalmarijuana.com
Redefining the Soil Food Web for Indoors by Matt Rize

The complex relationship between plants and soil is called the soil food web. This describes the connection between roots, soil, and soil organisms. In the past 15 years this topic has been the center of attention for organic gardeners, thanks in large part to Teaming With Microbes by Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis.

Plants produce sugars (carbohydrates) and proteins via photosynthesis, a well known process. Lesser known is that these photosynthetic products are then exuded into the soil, via the root system, to encourage beneficial bacteria and/or fungi. The bacteria and fungi feed larger soil organisms. It is the poop from these larger organisms that feed our plants. This is organic soil gardening at is core.

Soil organisms include (from tiny to small): bacteria, fungi, algae, slime molds, protozoa, nematodes, arthropods, gastropods, worms, and insects. These, and many unlisted organisms, are partially responsible for decomposition/aeration of soil. Decomposed soil releases nutrients, which are then used by plant's roots for nutrition. Aeration of soil is a major issue, and has led to many growing with soil-less organic media. Peat/coco/bark, the organic soil-less grow medias, are much more airy than traditional soil.

But soil organisms are not the only ones decomposition and improving soil structure. Plants decompose soil chemically by exuding organic acids, ie citric acid, via their roots system. This is how plants actively take nutrition from soil. Plants also alter soil pH to their liking with these same exudates. Plants, like soil organisms, aerate soil via growing and moving root systems. Plants do exert a level of control over the rhizosphere.

Taken indoors the root soil food web is different. Indoor container growing is done without the larger soil decomposers, worms and insects. Bagged potting mixes may be void of other crucial soil organisms due to processing and/or sterilization. This means indoor potting soil won't be continuously aerated by worm and insect tunneling. This lack of large decomposers has led to indoor growing being based on mostly lighter (more air) and less nutritionally balanced soil-less organic media instead of actual soil. Familiar examples of soil-less organic media again are: peat, coco, and bark.

Soil-less organic potting mixes made from peat/coco/bark need food supplementation, as these mixes do not provide complete plant nutrition, especially in high yield environments. Normally, in the outdoor soil food web, worms help to feed the plants. But indoors we have to do the worm's job, so we add bottled and dry nutrients to our indoor food web. Indoors we use a root-soil-nutrient food web instead of a root-soil food web.

The constant addition of vermi-compost (EWC) by worms does not apply indoors, and this plant nutrient source must be replaced for high yield indoor organics. The bottled and dry nutrients replace the worm's decomposition of soil. The switch from soil to soil-less organic (peat, coco, bark), due to soil-less' airy structure, means most of the nutrients that plants use must be added by the gardener. The dry and bottled nutes that we water in are eaten by the bacteria and fungi, which are eaten by nematodes and protozoa, who poop plant food. The root-soil-nutrient food web. Rize UP!


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## SlightlyVaped (May 26, 2011)

For those looking for a Bio Terra Plus replacement, below is a reply I received from the Canna support team (my original question was regarding mixing Canna Coco and FF Happy Frog):

"We are steadily working to get the BTP back into the market here.

Meanwhile, you can mix the two, but I would mix it no more than 30% coco. Also, you will have to pay attention to 3 issues over time.

The first is the pH control. While it will work out initially, it will play into lower values. It would be good to keep the pH of the solution (yes you can adjust Bio pH) somewhere around 6.0 and allow the medium to play it.

Next will be overall Nitrogen. I do not think this will be a concern with the Happy Frog, but the pH balance will decide this question.

The last issue you might face is Calcium. Happy Frog has less long term lime than Ocean Forest, which has too much. It is also a pH question but you can use a Cal Mag to overcome since it is really hard to get it right from the beginning without a lab.

I think you have a good a chance with this mix as others. I have done research with good results blending Ocean Forest with Pro Mix BX at 50/50. Happy Frog was not as successful."


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## R3DROCk9 (May 28, 2011)

hey all....im bacc....nightburd owes mHe a smokeout for helpin him and his deficiencies....and, honestly, i dont kno how the hell he gotta collective not knowing how to grow....bu its all gravy....GO NIGHTBURD!!!!!!!!!! i'm the man.


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## Matt Rize (May 28, 2011)




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## Matt Rize (May 28, 2011)




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## R3DROCk9 (May 28, 2011)

quit showin off matty..... lol


8^{P


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## ClamDigger (May 29, 2011)

Now that's educational!


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## Matt Rize (May 29, 2011)

ClamDigger said:


> Now that's educational!


My flower room journal for today, about 2 weeks into flower:
H2O start: 160 ppm 8.6 pH. 
10 mL/gallon Vega
2mL/gallon Flores
15 mL/gallon BioBoost
5 mL/gallon Cal Mag (GO)
1ml/gallon Pro TeKt silica
3mL/gallon Hygrozyme
tbsp of BioAg Seaweed w. micros
couple mL of yucca juice
----> 886 ppm 6.5 pH


What about that article I posted? feedback! RP smoke where you at? The root-soil-nutrient food web? aka microbial nutrient cycling.

Next watering:

My flower room journal for today, about 3 weeks into flower:
H2O start: 160 ppm 8.6 pH. 
18 mL/gallon Vega
6mL/gallon Flores
10 mL/gallon BioBoost
5 mL/gallon Cal Mag (GO)
1ml/gallon Pro TeKt silica
3mL/gallon Hygrozyme
tbsp of BioAg Seaweed w. micros
couple mL of yucca juice
30 mL ful-power
----> 890ppm 6.5 pH


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## Da Almighty Jew (May 29, 2011)

The constant addition of vermi-compost (EWC) by worms does not apply indoors, and this plant nutrient source must be replaced for high yield indoor organics. The bottled and dry nutrients replace the worm's decomposition of soil. The switch from soil to soil-less organic (peat, coco, bark), due to soil-less' airy structure, means most of the nutrients that plants use must be added by the gardener. The dry and bottled nutes that we water in are eaten by the bacteria and fungi, which are eaten by nematodes and protozoa, who poop plant food. The root-soil-nutrient food web. Rize UP! 

I am confused.. I use EWC indoors. Anyway since We dont have worms and stuff indoors, then wouldnt the addition of compost tea help to bring out bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and nematods?


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## Matt Rize (May 29, 2011)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> The constant addition of vermi-compost (EWC) by worms does not apply indoors, and this plant nutrient source must be replaced for high yield indoor organics. The bottled and dry nutrients replace the worm's decomposition of soil. The switch from soil to soil-less organic (peat, coco, bark), due to soil-less' airy structure, means most of the nutrients that plants use must be added by the gardener. The dry and bottled nutes that we water in are eaten by the bacteria and fungi, which are eaten by nematodes and protozoa, who poop plant food. The root-soil-nutrient food web. Rize UP!
> 
> I am confused.. I use EWC indoors. Anyway since We dont have worms and stuff indoors, then wouldnt the addition of compost tea help to bring out bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and nematods?


I'm trying to say that without worms actively decomposing we are missing out. Adding EWC is to compensate, but I feel the benefits run out before harvest.


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## Da Almighty Jew (May 29, 2011)

What about the benefits of using a compost tea with organic/veganic soil? doesn't that kinda create the same decomposing similarites of earth worms?

Specific compost, being actively aerated should bring out all types of good nematods, protozoa, bacteria, fungi.

Then we go back to the foodweb Bacteria, Fungi - Protozoa - nematods - microarthropods - arthropods -worms - other predators

So wouldn't compost tea somewhat duplicate the worms(which are actively decomposing)?


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## 0011StealTH (May 29, 2011)

moash said:


> sounds like advertisement to me...


 yeah canna is arm and a leg just like advance


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## Matt Rize (May 29, 2011)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> What about the benefits of using a compost tea with organic/veganic soil? doesn't that kinda create the same decomposing similarites of earth worms?
> 
> Specific compost, being actively aerated should bring out all types of good nematods, protozoa, bacteria, fungi.
> 
> ...


According to one of my gurus, Tim Wilson of www.microbeorganics.com, the short answer is no. The microbial life (no matter how thriving) will not compensate for the nutrients released by the larger decomposers (this includes insects). Roots decompose soil with exudates, smaller microbe do as well. But large decomposers (it's in their name) do the majority of decomposition, which leads to bioavailable nutes.


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## Wolverine97 (May 30, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> According to one of my gurus, Tim Wilson of www.microbeorganics.com, the short answer is no. The microbial life (no matter how thriving) will not compensate for the nutrients released by the larger decomposers (this includes insects). Roots decompose soil with exudates, smaller microbe do as well. But large decomposers (it's in their name) do the majority of decomposition, which leads to bioavailable nutes.


But if you're using castings as one of your base ingredients of your tea, why would that not provide the same benefit (short of actual aeration of the soil)?


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## R3DROCk9 (May 30, 2011)

matt...wut r your thoughts on vermitea? good/no good


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## NightbirdX (May 30, 2011)

So ya, I just took out some Jack Herer that I cut 2 weeks ago and has been in a jar curing for a week. 

I had cleaned my old faithful bong, my version of Matt's "Chalice" except this one started life as a fifth of Jack Daniels Single Barrel Select and the bottle was recycled by some friends who turn interesting liquor bottles into table top bongs. It has been refitted and renovated a couple of times. I just had a neck extension put in since it is a short bottle and got a bigger bowl and a fluted stem for maximum smoke to bubbles ratio, lol

The results are in... I love it. 2 rips off the bong and i'm damn near hallucinating. No burn or cough. Just a little after the second rip, but I damn near snapped the bowl and it was just a little small *cough *cough. I'm a choker. I'll hack for 30 mins if I take a monster rip. No burn at all. I am amazed. 

I'll quit rambling on in my semi lucid highness. Just thought I would share. -Bird


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## NightbirdX (May 31, 2011)

Damn, the munchies are a bitch though. I haven't had munchies this bad since back in the day, yo! lol


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## upthearsenal (May 31, 2011)

Right on bird!!


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## Matt Rize (May 31, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> But if you're using castings as one of your base ingredients of your tea, why would that not provide the same benefit (short of actual aeration of the soil)?


basic ACTs, when made with compost or worm castings, are not a real nutrient source. ACTs are more for life, and are applied usually every other week. This, imo, does not compensate for a thriving community of soil decomposers, like you would find in an outdoor garden .



R3DROCk9 said:


> matt...wut r your thoughts on vermitea? good/no good


good, of course. I make my own worm castings. 

Aerated Compost Tea (AACT or ACT) 

A process involving adding oxygen to: 
1) Water 
2) Compost (in a large 'tea' bag) 
3) Food source for the biology in the compost 

By creating optimal conditions for aerobic microbes, ACT allows you to multiply the biology in the starting compost exponentially. Many plant pathogens are anaerobic and prefer low to no oxygen conditions. By making sure the tea and the compost itself are well oxygenated and highly aerobic, you can potentially eliminate 75 percent of the potential plant-disease-causing bacteria and plant-toxic products. 

Compost Tea Recipe: ½ cup compost (worm castings), 1½ tbsp organic molasses, 1tsp yucca juice, ½ tsp fish hydrolysate, ½ tsp kelp meal. Per gallon. 

Directions: Use chlorine-free water, the best local compost you can find, aerate vigorously 18 to 24 hours. Strain. Dilute 1:20 or more. Spray on your plants and water into the soil during low light conditions every two weeks until you see flowers.
Source: What is Compost Tea? By Tim Wilson www.microbeorganics.com

&#8220;Compost Tea is a water-based environment wherein beneficial microorganisms are extracted from compost or vermicompost (worm compost) and multiplied by the millions and billions. Some form of agitation breaks the microbes free from the compost and they multiply because food, like black strap molasses, fish hydrolysate, kelp meal, humic acid, etc. has been added to the water, which at least one type of microbe digests. 

When one or more type of microbe begins to multiply in response to the food, other microbes respond to this growth and begin to consume these initial microbes and multiply in turn and so on and so on. For example the initial microbes are usually bacteria which are food for protozoa so the protozoa multiply in response to the bacteria. The end result is a functional feeding cycle or microbial nutrient cycle. I refer to this as a functional microbial consortia. This tea develops over a period of 12 to 72 hours or more and is then applied to the soil and plants. 

In the soil there are a number of organisms which function in basically the same nutrient cycle and zone. Once again, simply stated, there are substances released from the roots of plants which feed bacteria (& archaea). Again, the bacteria/archaea become prey to the protozoa and the protozoa excrete substances which are available to the roots as nutrients (e.g. nitrogen) thus creating a feeding cycle. 

Other compost/soil microorganisms of great importance are fungi. Fungal hyphae, are long branching strands which grow through the soil and serve to; bind soil aggregates together, help retain moisture, store certain nutrients, provide a source of food to certain other microbes, provide pathways for nutrient and moisture delivery, decompose organic material and displace disease causing fungi. 

There are also other types of fungi which do not grow (to my knowledge) in compost or Compost Tea which form a direct symbiotic nutrient exchange relationship with roots. This sort of fungi is called mycorrhizal fungi and there are many different species. 

The major microorganisms at work in Compost Tea are bacteria, protozoa (flagellates, ciliates and amoebae) and fungal hyphae if present in your compost. It is best to have a wide diversity of each of these microbes present. There are higher order organisms like nematodes found in compost and soil and occasionally these are extracted into Compost Tea but they do not grow nor multiply in the tea. Of course in the soil there are many other contributors to the nutrient cycle, like insects, earthworms and other animals. In its totality this is often referred to as the soil food web.&#8221;


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## Matt Rize (May 31, 2011)

ps. wating for my troll, von forne the ICschwag moderator, to show up. Rize UP RIU!


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## klassifyme (Jun 1, 2011)

what do you think of earthworrms in indoor containers, i've had good results on test plant in supersoil w/earthworms indoors


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## Matt Rize (Jun 1, 2011)

klassifyme said:


> what do you think of earthworrms in indoor containers, i've had good results on test plant in supersoil w/earthworms indoors


I've heard it works well, but have not tried. Larger, deeper pots or beds will be better for worms.


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## klassifyme (Jun 1, 2011)

the test plant had good nutrient uptake and needed less additional nutrients as i am trying to mix a only water and tea fed supersoil.btw it was in a seven gallon pot


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## Da Almighty Jew (Jun 1, 2011)

I think earthworms in containers is a great idea. I'm wondering if that would compare to the outside soil food-web. Or do we need to put other things in soil indoors such as arthropods and other insects along with eathworms to make it equal to an outdoor soil food web? Also what are these insects, arthropods that we have to put in, to make it equal?


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 2, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> ps. wating for my troll, von forne the ICschwag moderator, to show up. Rize UP RIU!


Why do you say that?


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## RPsmoke420 (Jun 2, 2011)

Worms definitely wouldn't hurt. They'd help aerate the soil and they would add a ton of beneficial bacteria. I know I am happy to see tons of worms in my outdoor raised beds. The more and more I think about it, the more it makes sense to simply bring my outdoor soil practice indoors. Maybe do something for more aeration, but I'd be set. And no bottled nutes. 

Anyway, maybe Matt can chime in... but I was reading about compost teas recently, and the idea of a more bacteria based tea vs. fungi based tea. For short cycle Cannabis, the bacteria would be more beneficial vs. fungi tea. And so EWC compost tea would be a bacteria based tea, and therefore might be better suited to Cannabis, or at least allow you to realize the benefits. Pretty sure it was an online article I was reading, but I can't find it now to get more of the details. Just a thought.


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## Matt Rize (Jun 3, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Why do you say that?


he's following me around the forums trolling me. I called him out and he was banned on the farm. It looks really bad when IC mods go to other forums and get banned for trolling. Super unprofessional.


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## Matt Rize (Jun 3, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> Worms definitely wouldn't hurt. They'd help aerate the soil and they would add a ton of beneficial bacteria. I know I am happy to see tons of worms in my outdoor raised beds. The more and more I think about it, the more it makes sense to simply bring my outdoor soil practice indoors. Maybe do something for more aeration, but I'd be set. And no bottled nutes.
> 
> Anyway, maybe Matt can chime in... but I was reading about compost teas recently, and the idea of a more bacteria based tea vs. fungi based tea. For short cycle Cannabis, the bacteria would be more beneficial vs. fungi tea. And so EWC compost tea would be a bacteria based tea, and therefore might be better suited to Cannabis, or at least allow you to realize the benefits. Pretty sure it was an online article I was reading, but I can't find it now to get more of the details. Just a thought.


 RP you ready for the cup? I got my ticket, but plan on crashing the party without paying for VIP.


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## RPsmoke420 (Jun 3, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> RP you ready for the cup? I got my ticket, but plan on crashing the party without paying for VIP.


Things are coming together for sure. More then ready. Will be some good times. And looks like I might have the hook up to a few little shin-digs going on... no worries!


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## Matt Rize (Jun 3, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> Things are coming together for sure. More then ready. Will be some good times. And looks like I might have the hook up to a few little shin-digs going on... no worries!


did I tell you I gave danko a tip of the month... for free. I'm too nice  RIZE UP RIU!


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## beeznutz (Jun 3, 2011)

how do u guys store ur nutes?fridge or no?


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## RPsmoke420 (Jun 3, 2011)

Probably should... might make it last longer. Canna says "most" of their nutrient line is made for a 2 year shelf life, unless otherwise stated. Also, if stored in the fridge, you would want to make sure the nutrient/water mix comes to room (root zone) temperature before watering. Using fresh fridge temps might be a bit too much. 

I simply don't have space in my fridge. I store all mine in a large cabinet. It's dark and cool. Gotta make sure to throw out old bottles and clean up the cabinet from time to time, no worries.


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## RPsmoke420 (Jun 3, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> did I tell you I gave danko a tip of the month... for free. I'm too nice  RIZE UP RIU!


^^^ this guy! Dropping knowledge on everyone! Yeah buddy!


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## Matt Rize (Jun 3, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> Probably should... might make it last longer. Canna says "most" of their nutrient line is made for a 2 year shelf life, unless otherwise stated. Also, if stored in the fridge, you would want to make sure the nutrient/water mix comes to room (root zone) temperature before watering. Using fresh fridge temps might be a bit too much.
> 
> I simply don't have space in my fridge. I store all mine in a large cabinet. It's dark and cool. Gotta make sure to throw out old bottles and clean up the cabinet from time to time, no worries.


yeah, the biocanna line, maybe a few of the others with high levels of fermented plant extracts, may benefit from the fridge, especially over the summer when household temps rise. do not freeze, I don't think that would work out well.


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## beeznutz (Jun 3, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> Probably should... might make it last longer. Canna says "most" of their nutrient line is made for a 2 year shelf life, unless otherwise stated. Also, if stored in the fridge, you would want to make sure the nutrient/water mix comes to room (root zone) temperature before watering. Using fresh fridge temps might be a bit too much.
> 
> I simply don't have space in my fridge. I store all mine in a large cabinet. It's dark and cool. Gotta make sure to throw out old bottles and clean up the cabinet from time to time, no worries.


i always get confused about manufacturer's recommendation.... is that 2 yrs if it hasn't been opened? and if it is open bottle then how long and what temp? i dunno, i think the last bottles i had lasted me longer because i didn't have many plants but now i have more so it'll probably get used faster. it's also summer and my basement gets a little muggy, i'm thinking of getting a mini fridge and set it on low.....
im also switching from GO to Canna so i'm not familiar with the nutes....


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## Matt Rize (Jun 3, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> ^^^ this guy! Dropping knowledge on everyone! Yeah buddy!


i cut this neem article, by the breeder of "The One", down to 86 words. Neem and Karanja Oils


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## beeznutz (Jun 3, 2011)

on anotha note, i'm getting close to chopping time and i fed the ladies for the last time, would it be beneficial to feed water with just hygrozyme? or just water+mollasses for example? i'm about a week maybe 2 from chopping....


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## NightbirdX (Jun 3, 2011)

I cut Hygrozyme 3 weeks before harvest and just give plain water in the last 7-10 days. Molasses is more for the microorganisms in your soil, if you are wanting a sweetner add sucanat as an organic option. I still just give plain pH balance water in the last 7-10 though because I have been hammering them in the last couple weeks lately.


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## SlightlyVaped (Jun 4, 2011)

Was checking out that T and J website and noticed the Pre Brewed Microbe Tea.

Any thoughts on that for adding some microbes for stealth/apartment gardeners that can't brew their own?


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## Matt Rize (Jun 4, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> on anotha note, i'm getting close to chopping time and i fed the ladies for the last time, would it be beneficial to feed water with just hygrozyme? or just water+mollasses for example? i'm about a week maybe 2 from chopping....


just pH adjusted water bredren. from 10 days til the end. you can use half strength leading up to the plain water


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## beeznutz (Jun 4, 2011)

thx guys, water it is then.....
i was just wondering if hygrozyme would help "clean" up anything from the roots right before harvest..... and maybe mollasses for sweeting the buds?? jus rambling...


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## Matt Rize (Jun 4, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> thx guys, water it is then.....
> i was just wondering if hygrozyme would help "clean" up anything from the roots right before harvest..... and maybe mollasses for sweeting the buds?? jus rambling...


molasses isn't that sweet, compared to say apple juice. but beyond that, I'm not sure adding sweet products really sweetens buds. Or if increasing sweetness is even a good thing. Many varieties are not sweet at all, ie diesel. if anything, molasses is packed with micronutes that you most def do not to be smoking.


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## Da Almighty Jew (Jun 6, 2011)

Jorge Cervantes says adding sugar during the last 2 weeks augmented the harvest weight of the bud on the right by 20%


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## Matt Rize (Jun 6, 2011)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> Jorge Cervantes says adding sugar during the last 2 weeks augmented the harvest weight of the bud on the right by 20%


I wouldn't take grow tips from someone who built a career wearing fake dreds and sunglasses... If he could explain that with science, which he can't, I would be open to the idea. But everything I've read says this is bullshit. Flowers are not made of sugars, neither are cannabinoids. Mass is not added the last 10 days generally. I do use a sugar product, bioboost, but that's when the buds are growing 1 to 6 weeks of flower.


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 6, 2011)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> Jorge Cervantes says adding sugar during the last 2 weeks augmented the harvest weight of the bud on the right by 20%


Jorge is an idiot, I'm sorry, but he is.


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## Da Almighty Jew (Jun 6, 2011)

lol at fake dreads and sunglasses


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## Matt Rize (Jun 7, 2011)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> lol at fake dreads and sunglasses


I'm just saying... ed, mel, jorge, soma, ect. All these grow books, with the exception of garden saver, are crap for high yield indoor organics. We don't need a bible. Just give a 150 page readable entertaining book on indoor organics, not some BS bed growing like soma's book... so kushman and I are just wrapping up his indoor veganics book. I'm stoked to get this info out there. but the info on this thread is as deep and advanced as it gets. way beyond a book. you guys have brought it all together. I think about where I was when this thread started, man... thanks to all the cannabinoid filled minds out there. You guys will recognize entire parts of the book from my blog posts and this thread. Once this book is done I'll be back to my original pursuit. The Pursuit of the Pure. And I'll be putting out more hash blogs. rize up RIU! I've had all my stuff on the back burner trying to explain veganics and high yield indoor growing to kyle    zing! jk kyle if you're out there! Supercropping chapter is revolutionary. Much of the book is. Kyle wrote the majority, we did some together, and I have a couple chapters at the end.


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## NightbirdX (Jun 7, 2011)

I feel you man. The way i grow is completely different than the way I started. I tweak my regimen more and more as I learn more and more. I'd say I have about 3/4 of it down, and just have to figure out the finish.  I really am glad that I started those Sour Kush and Jack Herer Seeds back in January. The plants are truly amazing and about as far apart growth wise as 2 plants could be. I have had an incredible journey with these plants that continues day in and out as I find out what the plant likes more and more and couple that with the suggestions and information that I glean from you guys on here. 

My journey has been long and at times very frusterating, but in the end more rewarding than just about anything else I've done. I think that the most important thing i've learned is that the months of experience is priceless. As shitty as it is to go through issues, pests, mildew, burn, deficiencies, etc., the knowledge gained from dealing with all of those problems is what makes a grower become good at what he does. The shitty growers are the ones who get into it for the short term quick buck, fail at growing and sell their shit on ebay to get back out of it again. The growers who do the best are the ones who learn that the word "fist" can be a verb, roll with the punches, make adjustments and move on. If it were easy to do, a lot more people would be doing it.


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## upthearsenal (Jun 7, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> My journey has been long and at times very frusterating, but in the end more rewarding than just about anything else I've done. I think that the most important thing i've learned is that the months of experience is priceless. As shitty as it is to go through issues, pests, mildew, burn, deficiencies, etc., the knowledge gained from dealing with all of those problems is what makes a grower become good at what he does. The shitty growers are the ones who get into it for the short term quick buck, fail at growing and sell their shit on ebay to get back out of it again. The growers who do the best are the ones who learn that the word "fist" can be a verb, roll with the punches, make adjustments and move on. If it were easy to do, a lot more people would be doing it.


Well said man, working hard for what's right. I actually re-read this whole thread a couple weeks ago, it was a pretty interesting, and funny at the same time. Personally I've evolved with this thread as has my garden, to be honest I don't know where I'd be without all this awesome info.

Hey Matt do you still foliar feed bioboost? lol...


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## upthearsenal (Jun 7, 2011)

oh yeah, and on the topic on books, I agree most of those books suck, I thought somas was going to be good a couple years ago when I got it, but I never did like it. Although, to this day I still re-read DJ Short's book, that's a good one.


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## sharpshoota (Jun 7, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I'm just saying... ed, mel, jorge, soma, ect. All these grow books, with the exception of garden saver, are crap for high yield indoor organics. We don't need a bible. Just give a 150 page readable entertaining book on indoor organics, not some BS bed growing like soma's book... so kushman and I are just wrapping up his indoor veganics book. I'm stoked to get this info out there. but the info on this thread is as deep and advanced as it gets. way beyond a book. you guys have brought it all together. I think about where I was when this thread started, man... thanks to all the cannabinoid filled minds out there. You guys will recognize entire parts of the book from my blog posts and this thread. Once this book is done I'll be back to my original pursuit. The Pursuit of the Pure. And I'll be putting out more hash blogs. rize up RIU! I've had all my stuff on the back burner trying to explain veganics and high yield indoor growing to kyle    zing! jk kyle if you're out there! Supercropping chapter is revolutionary. Much of the book is. Kyle wrote the majority, we did some together, and I have a couple chapters at the end.


whats up matt, when will the book be ready and how can i get my hands on a copy?, im interested to see how and what you've guys put together with all of yall's experience and knowledge.
I will say that ed,jorge,and mel's books are good for beginners with no prior knowledge and a good way to learn the basics, they got my foot in the door so no harm and they make good reading material in the bathroom haha 
However like nightbirdx said, it takes experience, through trial and error to really understand what it takes, and when you do, its a completly new and different mindset and ballgame...


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## Matt Rize (Jun 7, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> I feel you man. The way i grow is completely different than the way I started. ... The growers who do the best are the ones who learn that the word "fist" can be a verb, roll with the punches, make adjustments and move on. If it were easy to do, a lot more people would be doing it.


FOR REAL MAN!



upthearsenal said:


> Well said man, working hard for what's right. I actually re-read this whole thread a couple weeks ago, it was a pretty interesting, and funny at the same time. Personally I've evolved with this thread as has my garden, to be honest I don't know where I'd be without all this awesome info.... Although, to this day I still re-read DJ Short's book, that's a good one.
> Hey Matt do you still foliar feed bioboost? lol...


LMAO... not really. Maybe this summer when PM isn't always a threat. I do like DJ's book, it's not a grow book and doesn't pretend to be. I grew blueberry for a decade... before realizing that it's a pain in the ass to grow. 



sharpshoota said:


> whats up matt, when will the book be ready and how can i get my hands on a copy?, im interested to see how and what you've guys put together with all of yall's experience and knowledge.
> I will say that ed,jorge,and mel's books are good for beginners with no prior knowledge and a good way to learn the basics, they got my foot in the door so no harm and they make good reading material in the bathroom haha
> However like nightbirdx said, it takes experience, through trial and error to really understand what it takes, and when you do, its a completly new and different mindset and ballgame...


True I learned from those books a decade ago, and they do make good reading while on the throne, and at the very least, a back up if you ever run out of TP...


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## NightbirdX (Jun 7, 2011)

Jorge's book was my intro and it was a great guide that you could follow along with as you grow. I still use it for reference and occassionally read it as bathroom fodder. It is a place to start for those with no knowledge of growing or no one to really talk to.


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## sharpshoota (Jun 7, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> True I learned from those books a decade ago, and they do make good reading while on the throne, and at the very least, a back up if you ever run out of TP...


haha thats great


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## jloudermilk (Jun 7, 2011)

dam 100 pages, can someone point me the recipe?


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## NightbirdX (Jun 7, 2011)

The recipe is the journey my friend. Start with the BioCanna line and some hygrozyme.


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## Matt Rize (Jun 8, 2011)

jloudermilk said:


> dam 100 pages, can someone point me the recipe?


yeah man. mix some dolomite lime and earth worm castings into whatever bagged soil you're thinking about using. maybe a little perlite to balance that. 

then what nightbird said. I'd supplement that with a myco inoculant (like the one found here www.bioag.com ) and compost tea. Compost tea every two weeks, inoculant at transplant. 

You'll probably need a CalMag too.

Start light, and go up to full strength, maybe by 4 weeks in. Follow directions on supplement, starting at half strength and going up with your nutes. Some good organic unsulfured molasses will be needed for tea, and some good local compost.


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## NightbirdX (Jun 8, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> yeah man. mix some dolomite lime and earth worm castings into whatever bagged soil you're thinking about using. maybe a little perlite to balance that.


I've been wanting to amend my soil more. I wanna add some Cottonseed Meal and Earthworm Castings. I already add the lime at 2 TBS per gallon of container that the plants go in. How much Cottonseed Meal and EWC would you recommend adding to my Pro-Mix as a start?


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## Matt Rize (Jun 8, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> I've been wanting to amend my soil more. I wanna add some Cottonseed Meal and Earthworm Castings. I already add the lime at 2 TBS per gallon of container that the plants go in. How much Cottonseed Meal and EWC would you recommend adding to my Pro-Mix as a start?


I'm doing around 1:10 EWC:soilless mix, then adding some grade4 perlite to balance because the bioterra plus has no perlite or pumice. About a 1/2 cup meal per bag, same lime as you. I like to let it "cook" in my heat exchange room.


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## NightbirdX (Jun 8, 2011)

1/2 cup/bag on the meal? How bigga bag? lol


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## Vapor Nation (Jun 8, 2011)

Can't wait for the book! Strictly plant and mineral based nutrients for me.


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## upthearsenal (Jun 8, 2011)

for me nothing beats alfalfa, soybean meal, kelp, EWC, lime (and a few other things) for veg, and for flowering kelp, EWC, soft rock, lime (and a few other things, lol) and we're good to go! 

Just take the time to cook your mix, and you'll notice how far the P source will go, because really, in all the work I've done trying to get a sufficient mix for my needs with as little additives as possible (not small amounts of given fertz, just not many that aren't totally needed, minimalism is a big deal for me and the need to outsource has kind of forced my hand as such), the only problem I've ever run into was availability of P, and that was only at the beginning when my mix wasn't cooked, I now cook my old root balls with soft rock and I pull out media that is super rich and very easy to work with, mix that with your veg mix (minus the alfalfa meal, you could also feasibly remove the SB meal with no real issues, given other variables are taken care of properly).

Don't worry about making your mix too hot, becuase it won't ALL be available right away, and I've also noticed that it's the guano that can make a mix REALLY hot, to the point where it'll be detrimental to your plants. I have yet to burn my plants with kelp and such, and I add quite a bit. I could list amounts in cups and stuff, but to be honest I just 'feel' for it, I add however much I feel like and it always works, but this could be because I've been mixing organic soils for years and have since phased out measuring tools - this is just me, and if needed I can throw out some numbers, measurements per bag (1.5 cuft/10(ish) gallons) and such.

I've even added a pretty heavy amount of vegan fertz in FFOF and it wasn't too hot and my plants LOVED it.

amended mixes with little to no supplementation is the way to go IMHHO.

Also keep in mind that was a quite rudimentary mix, and you can add things that make nutrient availability much higher; humics, bennies, teas....

haha this was meant to be a short post, but I guess I went off....


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## Matt Rize (Jun 9, 2011)

^^^^^^^^ vnice UPtheA!!!



NightbirdX said:


> 1/2 cup/bag on the meal? How bigga bag? lol


uh... I standard bag, same size as roots and happy frog.


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## SlightlyVaped (Jun 9, 2011)

I was talking with a friend in Japan today regarding gardening and he was mentioning his mom makes a bacteria out of rice and milk for her little garden.

Anyone heard of this?

While waiting for more details, I did some research and this is what I was able to find:

*EM/BAM* (_*lactobacillus culture*_):

1/4 cup rice 
1quart Mason Jar
1 cup water
1 fine mesh strainer
80 oz milk depends on how much one is making
1 gallon container or jar
1 tsp. black-strap molasses

*Procedure:*

1. Place rice and cup of water in mason jar and shake vigorously until water is cloudy white, strain off rice kernels and discard into your compost bin or cook for dinner. I have heard of the Japanese adding a dash of nato to help ferment but not needed.
2. place cap on loosely and store in a cabinet or cool dark place for 5-7 days.
3. Sift off top layer and strain liquid (serum)
4. measure your rice liquid and now add a ratio of 1 part fermented rice to 10 parts milk, I would culture in a 1 gallon jar. let sit for 5-7 days.
5. sift off curd settlement and add to your soil or feed your animals it is good for their digestion, then there should be a light yellow serum left this is your EM serum.
6. Add 1 tsp molasses to feed and keep your bacteria alive and refrigerate. should have a shelf life of 6-12 months.
7. to activate EM activities add to room temperature non-chlorinated water at a ratio of 1 part Serum to 20 parts water.
8. feed to plants either straight into soil or follicular feeding.


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## Wetdog (Jun 9, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Jorge is an idiot, I'm sorry, but he is.


Hey now! I have a signed copy of something of his from the early 90's. LOL Didn't tell me anything I hadn't learned by killing plants, in the previous 20 years.

Wonder if the signature is fake????

@Matt, +1 on the garden saver. That and "Marijuana Botany" are my 2 go to books.

Wet


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## NightbirdX (Jun 9, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> uh... I standard bag, same size as roots and happy frog.


Oh ok, I wasn't sure if you meant grow bags or something else, lol. 

Bear with me. Damn it Jim I'm a writer not a science man! I have been looking for what I should be putting the conversions into, but I couldnt really find anything. So on a full bale of Pro-Mix I should add about 1.25 cups or the Cottonseed meal, I'll add 2 TBS/gallon on the lime, and with the EWC, 1:10 with the Pro-Mix, so .38 ft3/bale? If anyone could iron out my EWC measurements I really would appreciate it, lol. I write real well, but the measurements and conversions is where I fail, lol.

P.S. PAGE 100 FIRST POST WOOHOO! lol what do I win?


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 9, 2011)

Wetdog said:


> Hey now! I have a signed copy of something of his from the early 90's. LOL Didn't tell me anything I hadn't learned by killing plants, in the previous 20 years.
> 
> Wonder if the signature is fake????
> 
> ...


I started with Jorge like most people here, and I learned the basics from him but also a lot of conflicting bullshit that hung me up with issues forever. If I had started somewhere like Mel Thomas I could have saved myself some aggravation.


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## upthearsenal (Jun 9, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Oh ok, I wasn't sure if you meant grow bags or something else, lol.
> 
> Bear with me. Damn it Jim I'm a writer not a science man! I have been looking for what I should be putting the conversions into, but I couldnt really find anything. So on a full bale of Pro-Mix I should add about 1.25 cups or the Cottonseed meal, I'll add 2 TBS/gallon on the lime, and with the EWC, 1:10 with the Pro-Mix, so .38 ft3/bale? If anyone could iron out my EWC measurements I really would appreciate it, lol. I write real well, but the measurements and conversions is where I fail, lol.
> 
> P.S. PAGE 100 FIRST POST WOOHOO! lol what do I win?


I'd use 2-3 cups of ewc per gal, you could go up to 30% (and I've heard of people going to 44% in soil-less) but it makes the media quite heavy.... or least my ewc are super heavy..

I always use 2 cups kelp per gal and half that of lime, so I use one cup lime per gal... 2tbsp/gal sounds kind of wimpy...


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## NightbirdX (Jun 10, 2011)

Some pics of my bud porn. I haven't posted any yet, mostly cause I just figured out how to use my Digicam and the cam on my phone. Enjoy

Butterscotch Hawaiian x G-13 (Free Leonard)


More Free Leonard
View attachment 1641690

One of my Jack Herer. Little Bastards still gave me 2 zones per plant


Some plants in Bloom


Grand Daddy Purps


More GDP


Another of the Jack


The wall of Good...


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## Wetdog (Jun 10, 2011)

@NBX

You might want to rethink that cottonseed meal. One, I have seen that it is not indicated for container growing, Two, it is very acidic, and Three, cotton is usually heavily treated with pesticides, herbicides and all sorts of stuff. One of the heaviest treated crops around.

Alfalfa and Soybean meal would be much better for N sources.

*I* use 1cup of lime/CuFt (7.5 gallons). I cup/gallon?!? As much as I love lime, that's a bit over the top. LOL Also, 1cup of kelp meal/CuFt. Adding more does not increase benefit.

Too much of anything can create lockout's elsewhere.

Wet


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## upthearsenal (Jun 10, 2011)

Great pics NB!! That GDP looks delisiouso, good work man.

I used to use .5 cup per gal then I doubled it, I had noticed some pH issues and a cal def. Lime is my main source of calcium, and I've used 1cup for two harvests with no problems; can't knock it till you try it.




This one had a bit under 5 cups, and this was certainly my best mix with the best end result. (not the best bud, but the best looking plant considering how LITTLE I had to supplement the plant)


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## Wetdog (Jun 10, 2011)

Not knocking it, I've grown (not mj), in pure crushed limestone before.

But, like with anything, start slow and work your way up to whatever works best for you and your situation.

Wet


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## upthearsenal (Jun 10, 2011)

Although to be honest wet, I remember thinking "shit I guess I'll find if this was too much after the plants get burnt or something", it is a heavy amount of lime, and the stuff goes faster now. At least, I'd recommend .5 cup, some of my smaller plants liked this. Even though I use more, I think most would be fine with 5-6 cups per bag of media (1.5cuft or so).

If you only use a few tbsp per gal and notice anything you can always top dress, so I do agree, more isn't always better. I'm just relaying my experience.


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## upthearsenal (Jun 10, 2011)

Wetdog said:


> Not knocking it, I've grown (not mj), in pure crushed limestone before.
> 
> But, like with anything, start slow and work your way up to whatever works best for you and your situation.
> 
> Wet


Correctamundo.


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## beeznutz (Jun 10, 2011)

Wetdog said:


> @NBX
> 
> You might want to rethink that cottonseed meal. One, I have seen that it is not indicated for container growing, Two, it is very acidic, and Three, cotton is usually heavily treated with pesticides, herbicides and all sorts of stuff. One of the heaviest treated crops around.
> 
> ...


I second that. in fact , if you can I'd stay away from soybeans as well since it's becoming over produced (what was it that I got cut down to grow giant soybeans crops? a rainforest or something?)


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## upthearsenal (Jun 10, 2011)

A friend of mine who is very big on the sustainable products school of thought, and has warned me about soybeans. 

beeznuts do you have any links? or other info?

I remember reading that growing soy can damage the ground and make it difficult to regain it's composition.... although there could have been other factors involoved, ie. chem fertz and such.


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## Da Almighty Jew (Jun 10, 2011)

Wetdog said:


> @NBX
> 
> You might want to rethink that cottonseed meal. One, I have seen that it is not indicated for container growing, Two, it is very acidic, and Three, cotton is usually heavily treated with pesticides, herbicides and all sorts of stuff. One of the heaviest treated crops around.
> 
> ...


I noticed my plants were heavy eaters so i also use a ton of lime, if it does burn at first then you need to let the soil cook for a week or so.


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## beeznutz (Jun 10, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> A friend of mine who is very big on the sustainable products school of thought, and has warned me about soybeans.
> 
> beeznuts do you have any links? or other info?
> 
> I remember reading that growing soy can damage the ground and make it difficult to regain it's composition.... although there could have been other factors involoved, ie. chem fertz and such.


nah man, I don't. I just remember having a conversation with some friends about a yr ago and somebody brought up the subject of soybeans being over produced. and it's true, if u pay attention you'll notice how many products these days, edible or not, have soy ingredients. I don't even drink soymilk anymore, switched to almond and coconut after relizing that I, too have too many soy ingredients in my diet ( it's easy to do when ur vegan). 
as a general rule too much of anything's no good, that's all....


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## Matt Rize (Jun 11, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> nah man, I don't. I just remember having a conversation with some friends about a yr ago and somebody brought up the subject of soybeans being over produced. and it's true, if u pay attention you'll notice how many products these days, edible or not, have soy ingredients. I don't even drink soymilk anymore, switched to almond and coconut after relizing that I, too have too many soy ingredients in my diet ( it's easy to do when ur vegan).
> as a general rule too much of anything's no good, that's all....


http://starboard.flowtheory.net/blog/2010/05/23/why-soy-sucks/



> Two more points about use of soy should be stressed:
> 
> Do not ever feed raw soybeans to any sort of livestock! Raw soybeans contain growth inhibitors which can seriously compromise normal growth, among other problems. Roasting or otherwise heat-treating the beans will largely (though some would argue, not entirely) neutralize the growth-inhibiting compounds.
> 
> Soybean meal, a common ingredient in commercial feeds, is sometimes available at one&#8217;s local feed supply. Be aware that such meal is almost certain to be a byproduct of the extraction of soybean oil. If the oil was extracted using high-pressure expeller presses, it is more acceptable as a feed. More commonly, however, the oil has been extracted using hexane as a solvent; and the resulting meal is likely contaminated with residues of hexane. Unless you know the meal offered was expeller pressed rather than solvent extracted, soybean meal is best avoided.


http://www.themodernhomestead.us/article/Soy-Alternatives.html



> The most commonly available plant-based fertilizers include the following:
> Alfalfa meal: Derived from alfalfa plants and pressed into a pellet form, alfalfa meal is beneficial for adding nitrogen and potassium (about 2 percent each), as well as trace minerals and growth stimulants. Roses, in particular, seem to like this fertilizer and benefit from up to 5 cups of alfalfa meal per plant every ten weeks, worked into the soil. Add it to your compost pile to speed up the process.
> 
> Compost: Compost is mostly beneficial for adding organic matter to the soil. It doesn't add much in the way of fertilizer nutrients itself, but it does enhance and help make available any nutrients in the soil.
> ...


Read more: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/fertilizing-your-organic-garden.html#ixzz1Owv0vhhw


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## cannawizard (Jun 11, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Jorge is an idiot, I'm sorry, but he is.


*may i add "dusche-bag" to his accolades? hehe ... those dreds are the only thing "dank" around him )


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## upthearsenal (Jun 11, 2011)

Awesome soybean post Matt, looks like I've got some reading to do.


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## R3DROCk9 (Jun 11, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> matt...wut r your thoughts on vermitea? good/no good




mentor matty......wut say you??


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## R3DROCk9 (Jun 11, 2011)

oh also...any1 might want to read up on aspirin mixed with water to activate a plant's natural defenses...i been following up on it and wondered if anyone has experience....it sounds kinda weird, bu trials have shown to be promising....


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## upthearsenal (Jun 11, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> oh also...any1 might want to read up on aspirin mixed with water to activate a plant's natural defenses...i been following up on it and wondered if anyone has experience....it sounds kinda weird, bu trials have shown to be promising....


hook it up with some liiiinnnnkkkssss


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## Wetdog (Jun 11, 2011)

Checked with the feed maker about the soybean meal, no hexane involved. Most of their feed is for local dairy's and that would show up in the milk.

Wet


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## Matt Rize (Jun 11, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> mentor matty......wut say you??


If "vermitea" refers to a name brand... then it gets a big "m'eh" from me. If you mean worm casting tea, then a big "HECK YEAH". I use both compost and EWC for my ACT. And I mix both into my "soil-less" media.


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## R3DROCk9 (Jun 11, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> hook it up with some liiiinnnnkkkssss


here ya go:

http://www.plantea.com/plant-aspirin.htm


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 11, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> here ya go:
> 
> http://www.plantea.com/plant-aspirin.htm


Find a willow tree and cut yourself some 1/2" round fresh branches and soak in water. Makes for a great cloning solution, it has natural rooting hormes in it that makes it very beneficial,a s well as the other benefits as stated in your link.

To keep it veganic, go this route instead of using Aspirin.


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## upthearsenal (Jun 11, 2011)

Both are interesting. The aspirin seems like it does crazy things, I might have to try this with some rose cuts.

Ive been wanting to soak my cuts in a seaweed solution for a while now, just haven't got to it. Anyone have any experience with this? I'll probably give it a go, I have a dozen or so blue widow clones I need to take so maybe I'll try it on half.


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 11, 2011)

I know the willow water works, and I do believe that the kelp or seaweed works also. My kelp proeducts have instructions also for cloning and seedlings, haven't gone that route yet myself but I will, and I would also add a dash of a mycrohizzae/bacterial/trichoderma powder product (kinda like a dip but just sprinkle on the cadmium), a little dash goes a long long ways.


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## R3DROCk9 (Jun 11, 2011)

yeah i started using the aspirin before.....bu my plants werent really needing it, so i dont kno if it really helped

as for the vermitea, here is their website's description....i was jus wondering if this stuff is above and beyond other methods and recipes....some ppl i kno have sworn by it:


Vermi T Solution
4.3/5 rating (41 votes)
Description
Vermi T&#8482; Solution is a highly concentrated liquid form of beneficial biology that increases nutrient efficiency, root mass and yield.* It contains approximately 35,000 diverse organisms that are recognized as probiotics for your plants. Introducing a consistent and balanced plethora of beneficial bacteria, fungi, protozoa and nematodes - key members of the soil food web- allows for better digestion of nutrients as well as stimulates immune system function.

The core humic matter used to create Vermi T&#8482; is unparalleled in the fresh tea market:

-Alaskan Humus is known as the &#8220;life force&#8221; of soil; it alone is world renowned for its microbiological diversity.

-VermiGreen organic compost is all green waste, no manures, and treated with Vermi T&#8482; to increase biodiversity and cut the degradation process in half.

-VermiWorm earthworm castings are procured from private worm farms and fed a proprietary diet of vegetative matter.

These diverse humic substrates are then fortified with high calcium fossilized kelp containing 72 trace elements and inoculated with endo/ecto mycorrhizae. The diversity of aerobic biology is brought to its highest total biomass by the consumption of six of the most premium fungal/bacteria food sources available. These food sources consist of a proprietary blend of specific simple and complex carbohydrates particular to the needs of the organisms, and are measured to within 0.01 gram to ensure consistent biological culturing.

The integrity of our ingredients combined at specific, scientifically tested ratios, allows Vermi T&#8482; to reach the highest levels of biomass and achieve a biodiversity which is unsurpassed on the market. Vermi T&#8482; was developed to create simplicity in brewing a consistent, premium, microbial tea solution.

Directions for use

Soil: Add VermiT at a 50:1 dilution ratio. This equates to 5tbsp or 75ml or 1/3 cup of VermiT per gallon of water. Apply directly to medium. For optimal results reintroduce VermiT to your garden every 7-10 days.

Soilless/Hydroponics: Add to your reservoir with nutrients at at 50:1 dilution ratio (if you have a drain to waste system simply dilute and top water). This will help digest the nutrients making the readily available for root uptake. Works great breaking down nutrient lock-out of salt-based synthetic fertilizers and thrives with organic fertilizers. Make sure to change your reservoir every 7-10 days. Completely non-sedimental! Won't clog your filters, emitters or pumps!

Foliar: Add VermiT at a rate of (10tbsp) 150 ml per gallon of water. Apply at a minimum of 70% coverage to foliage, stem and stalk. For optimal results reintroduce VermiT to your garden every 7-10 days.

Note: VermiT must be diluted, applied or refrigerated immediately after extraction. This will prolong shelf life from 24 hours to 7-10 days. DO NOT use after expiration or with foul odor.


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## SlightlyVaped (Jun 12, 2011)

My local shop gave me a half gallon of Vermi T last week and my plants loved it.

I just can't justify purchasing a half gallon every couple weeks since I only use a gallon or two of water every feeding and ended up throwing out way more than I used.

Right now I am using Mayan Microzyme and adding a few things like Bioag's TM-7 and Soluble Seaweed.

Is it possible to make a small batches of worm casting tea (I only need to dilute it into a gallon or two of water) without having to buy big bags of organic materials?


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## SMOKEnCHOKE (Jun 12, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I'm just saying... ed, mel, jorge, soma, ect. All these grow books, with the exception of garden saver, are crap for high yield indoor organics. We don't need a bible. Just give a 150 page readable entertaining book on indoor organics, not some BS bed growing like soma's book... so kushman and I are just wrapping up his indoor veganics book. I'm stoked to get this info out there. but the info on this thread is as deep and advanced as it gets. way beyond a book. you guys have brought it all together. I think about where I was when this thread started, man... thanks to all the cannabinoid filled minds out there. You guys will recognize entire parts of the book from my blog posts and this thread. Once this book is done I'll be back to my original pursuit. The Pursuit of the Pure. And I'll be putting out more hash blogs. rize up RIU! I've had all my stuff on the back burner trying to explain veganics and high yield indoor growing to kyle    zing! jk kyle if you're out there! Supercropping chapter is revolutionary. Much of the book is. Kyle wrote the majority, we did some together, and I have a couple chapters at the end.


When and where is the book available?


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## Matt Rize (Jun 12, 2011)

SMOKEnCHOKE said:


> When and where is the book available?


soon and don't know yet. sorry I'll tell you more when I know


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## digimidgi (Jun 12, 2011)

Have you ever thought about mixing Cacao beans of goji berries into the soil? Cacao has 1 of the the highest nutritional elements of all superfoods.
What about adding spirulina in the mix? Would this algae be of benefit?


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## Matt Rize (Jun 13, 2011)

digimidgi said:


> Have you ever thought about mixing Cacao beans of goji berries into the soil? Cacao has 1 of the the highest nutritional elements of all superfoods.
> What about adding spirulina in the mix? Would this algae be of benefit?


 I'm afraid that is a little beyond me right now. I think Cacao and goji are both pretty expensive, same with spirulina.


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## AcidWitch420 (Jun 13, 2011)

Actually soil is a mixture of minerals, organic matter, air, water, and both living and non living organisms. There are 12 types of soil, gelisols, histosols, spodosols, andisols, oxisols, vertisols, aridisols, ultisols, mollisols, alfisols, inceptisols, and entisols. Soil is also home to thousands of insects and other organisms like worms. Worms play a huge role in healthy soil, they help increase the amount of air and water that gets down into the soil, they break down organic matter, and they leave behind castings which are a good and very rich source of fertilizer. Having worms in your soil is a sign that you have healthy soil. Soils also have diffrent characteristics and textures like sand, silt, clay, or loam. This can play a vital role in how the soil holds water, air, drainage, and nutrients. Also the smell and color of your soil can tell you a lot about it, dark= high in organic matter=good, uniform= well mixed= good, striped or spotted= not well mixed=bad, blue-gray=standing water= bad and red= high in iron. For smell earthy =life in soil=good, like low tide or bad fish= anaeboric decomposition=standing water=bad, no smell at all =dead. Remember this also there are millions of living things in 1 teaspoon of healthy soil that need water, air, and food to live.


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## Da Almighty Jew (Jun 13, 2011)

Professor Matt i have a question. I want to try to use compost tea to root my clones in rockwool. Then transplant in soil with the rest. When i bubble it for a few days it goes to neutral. Would that be safe to use?? Because i know hydro they recommend 5.8-6.0 ph. But in my compost tea i include humic acids( chelate) lemon juice(chelate) molasses(chelate). So im thinking my ph wouldnt matter too much for rockwool. What do ya think?


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## Matt Rize (Jun 14, 2011)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> Professor Matt i have a question. I want to try to use compost tea to root my clones in rockwool. Then transplant in soil with the rest. When i bubble it for a few days it goes to neutral. Would that be safe to use?? Because i know hydro they recommend 5.8-6.0 ph. But in my compost tea i include humic acids( chelate) lemon juice(chelate) molasses(chelate). So im thinking my ph wouldnt matter too much for rockwool. What do ya think?


I have very little experience with rockwool, it's my least favorite media these days because it's an irritant and is not really compost material. I would do a small test run on a couple plants to see what happens.


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## sharpshoota (Jun 14, 2011)

hey matt,
ok I started supercropping a little over week ago for the first time, and loving the results. I have a few questions for ya tho.

My babies are are 3 ft right now still vegging and i have some of the lowest branching that isnt quite coming up like i would like, they are about a foot maybe and i want them to be 3 ft. Im thinking if supercropped at a lower point on the main stalk, it would help out, but the stalk is to thick the bend now... maybe i started supercropping a little late but what should i do?

Also when i bent the main stem on a couple of them, it never came back up, it just stayed at the bent 90 degree angle and the new growth started shooting up at the end of the tip, as well as other points. But do i need to put a stake in and force it back upright??


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## NightbirdX (Jun 14, 2011)

I break tops and leave them bent at 90 degrees if they grow too high. They always finish fine.


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## sharpshoota (Jun 14, 2011)

well their outdoors, so hieght isnt an issue... 
i was just trying to get more tops of coarse, and the 90 degree angle just seemed strange to me. just not what i was expecting...
the main stalk goes up 3 ft, 90 degree angle for about 6-7 inches, then back up, just looks funny 2 me


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## NightbirdX (Jun 14, 2011)

Ya they do that. I have had some stand right back up no matter how much I bent them, but still caused the bottoms to catch up. I had a top that got broken and was lying down and it basically just grew a knot and stayed where it was. The bud was still nice and big it just never stood back up or even looked like it wanted to.


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## sharpshoota (Jun 14, 2011)

yeah cause some of them came back up, but others layed flat... its still growing fine and the lower growth has responded quickly im still happy. 
just not sure if the bent ones would affect anything or become bothersome when im trying to supercrop multiple times.


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## Matt Rize (Jun 14, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> hey matt,
> ok I started supercropping a little over week ago for the first time, and loving the results. I have a few questions for ya tho.
> 
> My babies are are 3 ft right now still vegging and i have some of the lowest branching that isnt quite coming up like i would like, they are about a foot maybe and i want them to be 3 ft. Im thinking if supercropped at a lower point on the main stalk, it would help out, but the stalk is to thick the bend now... maybe i started supercropping a little late but what should i do?
> ...


Horizontal training is great, that's what you are doing with the bending. No need to force it back up, about half of my tops are bent over, that's how I create an even canopy for flowering.


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## sharpshoota (Jun 14, 2011)

ok so its basically another way of LST training, when i say bend i mean snapping the stem to a bend


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## Matt Rize (Jun 14, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> ok so its basically another way of LST training, when i say bend i mean snapping the stem to a bend


U mean "popping" the inner hurd, not actually snapping the stem right?


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## Matt Rize (Jun 14, 2011)

I'm about to go on the radio, with Selecta Nikka T. 4-6 west coast time. Cannabis Cuts with DeeJay Wiid. http://pcrcollective.org/


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## sharpshoota (Jun 14, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> U mean "popping" the inner hurd, not actually snapping the stem right?


yeah sorry lol although i have accidently snapped a branch


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## NightbirdX (Jun 14, 2011)

tried to listen in, couldn't get it to work. I actually had made a sort of lazy mistake that really benefited me in the end. I ended up having a hellacious week and forgot to rotate my plants one week after I had transplanted them into 5 gallons. One side was markedly taller than the other. I transplanted them into 10 gal buckets before I sent them into flowering. I don't normally stake the plants until the second week of flowering to let the plant develop as it wants and then open it up. With these that had grown "lopsided, I pulled the longer tops to one side and the shorter to the other and it really created this interesting canopy in a "V" shape. On each side of the lights, the plants are sloping up with the lowest under the light and the tallest furthest away. It is actually pretty cool and has made it really convenient in spreading out and making an even canopy, looking down the row of lights kinda looks like looking down the length of a half pipe. The lights in the middle and the plants are the pipe. Gonna try to recreate this. The light dispersion is amazing and it really gives an equal amount of light to all the buds. All the buds are pretty uniform and swelling and the tops in the back are starting to connect and swell quite a bit, but don't compete with the smaller plants for light. I'll try to get some pics up of it later.


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## upthearsenal (Jun 14, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I'm about to go on the radio, with Selecta Nikka T. 4-6 west coast time. Cannabis Cuts with DeeJay Wiid. http://pcrcollective.org/


I guess it's not working cause it hasn't stated yet, right? lol...

I'll be tuned in in a couple hrs


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## sharpshoota (Jun 14, 2011)

ive become addicted to supercropping 3rd time in about 2 weeks lol there is no stress and the response is quick.

nightbird that sounds interesting, a half pipe lol im picturing it now. that sounds like a very effective use of lighting ndoors tho


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 14, 2011)

Listening Live, Hope it goes well brother.


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## Matt Rize (Jun 14, 2011)

Oh man, here goes the podcast. Selecta Nikka T is really the guest of honor, I'm just hanging out talking sh*t... 
http://podcasts.pcrcollective.org/CannabisCuts/CannabisCuts-20110614.mp3


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 15, 2011)

The link appears to be broken...


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 15, 2011)

Completely controlled environment to make Selecta's solventless earwax, There is so much truth to the fact that your humidity should as well be maintained for the process and procedure. Great insight. Nice to hear your voice Matt, eventhough your voice wasn't mic'd like the the earwax guru.

I was reading through this journal yesterday while you guys were live and I was going through the pages where you listed the fermenting process of different herbs and natural/local plant species. It kinda made me stop and wonder about how some of the best herb I have ever smoked here on the Southern Oregon Coast was by farmers, who make their own soil, and I do not believe that they add any manures to their soil mix. They basically take 10 years to make a batch of soil. Over the course of the years they scrap fine layers of humus and dead plant material off of hillsides near or on their farms, add all the vegetable waste and scraps from their farms and continue to turn throughout the years with their tractors. They simply do not buy any products, I've asked and just give plain water all the way through the grow. 400 watt used for veg. and 600 watt for bloom. their plants are trained to be no more than 22" tall with a total of 8" of growth and skinny legs all below that (14" to the soil). They use SCROG method with a netiting that has 2" squares that is 18" x 18" and fill completely before turning to 12/12. Min. 6oz. Avg. 8oz. of the best tasting/burning/potent herb I have had.

The strains grown this way that I have experienced. Dynamite, Shiskaberry, Trainwreck, God Bud.

I almost guarantee that they grow veganic, but will ask to verify when I see them again. Probably next month though.

It looks like I will be going to the beach and doing some hiking in my backyard this summer to start to find and make all these fermented extracts to add to specialized compost piles (fungal dominant, bacterial, dominant, and balanced), and with these I can make my specialized teas, giving a fungal dominant when needed and so forth.

Yet there are a few more books that I would like to add to my arsenal, and they are the ones that have also been listed on this thread. I've read "Teaming with Microbes" great book, and would love to add the others. 

Hope you had a great evening in the Bay Area.


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## R3DROCk9 (Jun 15, 2011)

slightly vaped..


im in the process of dividing my vermitea block up into pieces...i figure if i can get 5 equal parts from the 250 gallon block, thats 50 gallons at a time (90$ for the block)...dilute 25 of that for now and refridgerate the other 25 gallons (will be good in fridge for another week or two)....they say wen you make the tea you have it stay good in concentrated form for the week or two...once you add more water to it...you have about another two weeks after that to use it before it smells like a sewer.....we'll see
also....matty .....any experience with insect frass??? i dont really wanna add kaakaa to my garden, bu heard the natural chemical in the frass makes the plant think it getting attacked so it produces more trichromes......maybe we could isolate the chem without the shit???? 

anyways, i jus been looking into how to increase essential oils, if anyone has sum good ideas, i would love to hear them...

also been thinking abiut adding a sunpulse uva light (10k infared or violet) during the last week or two of flower to help with trich production....any thoughts???....pce


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 15, 2011)

It is the UVB spectrum that you are after. Reptile lights marked with a 10.0 or something like that is what you want to shop for. If I had the room in my closet, don't laugh, I definately would add a few UVB light that would increase the trichome production. And yes, those bulbs do also have UVA in them, but look for the ones with High UVB. You'll see what I mean when you shop around.

Here is a site that has various styles and bulbs. http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/cat/info/23276/category.web


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## R3DROCk9 (Jun 15, 2011)

PH...

yeah i kno wut you mean..i been looked...the psorisis treatment lights are the strongest....800watts of uvB, if i recall correctly

anyways google those sunpulse bulbs and lemme kno wut you think bc i looked at the box and it said uvA.....bu they make grow lights....so it could be jus marketing...i dunno 

also, i heard about 10% of the total light output should be uvB (1000watt flower bulb, so 100watt uvB)....i was thinking maybe the more the better, tho ...so i dunno bout dat either


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## Matt Rize (Jun 15, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> also....matty .....any experience with insect frass??? i dont really wanna add kaakaa to my garden, bu heard the natural chemical in the frass makes the plant think it getting attacked so it produces more trichromes......maybe we could isolate the chem without the shit????
> 
> anyways, i jus been looking into how to increase essential oils, if anyone has sum good ideas, i would love to hear them...


GROW vegan organic and you will increase terpenoids 

I've seen that insect frass, interesting. I'm still using EWC and compost.


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## Matt Rize (Jun 15, 2011)

sorry about the bad link. here goes the Cannabis Cuts with Selecta Nikka T and myself.
http://podcasts.pcrcollective.org/CannabisCuts/CannabisCuts-20110614.mp3


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## beeznutz (Jun 16, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> PH...
> 
> yeah i kno wut you mean..i been looked...the psorisis treatment lights are the strongest....800watts of uvB, if i recall correctly
> 
> ...


i'm interested in this as well....here's a discussion on the topic:

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/392897-10k-sunpulse-uva-vs-exo.html


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## beeznutz (Jun 16, 2011)

and on that note, whattya guys prefer for lights?digi, magnet?
i keep getting controversial facts about either one of them...do digis last longer or no?


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## beeznutz (Jun 16, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> tried to listen in, couldn't get it to work. I actually had made a sort of lazy mistake that really benefited me in the end. I ended up having a hellacious week and forgot to rotate my plants one week after I had transplanted them into 5 gallons. One side was markedly taller than the other. I transplanted them into 10 gal buckets before I sent them into flowering. I don't normally stake the plants until the second week of flowering to let the plant develop as it wants and then open it up. With these that had grown "lopsided, I pulled the longer tops to one side and the shorter to the other and it really created this interesting canopy in a "V" shape. On each side of the lights, the plants are sloping up with the lowest under the light and the tallest furthest away. It is actually pretty cool and has made it really convenient in spreading out and making an even canopy, looking down the row of lights kinda looks like looking down the length of a half pipe. The lights in the middle and the plants are the pipe. Gonna try to recreate this. The light dispersion is amazing and it really gives an equal amount of light to all the buds. All the buds are pretty uniform and swelling and the tops in the back are starting to connect and swell quite a bit, but don't compete with the smaller plants for light. I'll try to get some pics up of it later.


haha....that's what iv been doing too.
i'm terrible at dealing with cuttings and i always end up with some odd shaped plants so i do training and topping quite early.
i luv how after you pull the main branches to the side the middle shoots just go straight up to the sky!


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## Matt Rize (Jun 16, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> and on that note, whattya guys prefer for lights?digi, magnet?
> i keep getting controversial facts about either one of them...do digis last longer or no?


not sure if they last longer, but they work more efficiently for sure. Are smaller, run cooler, and you can use both MH and HPS lights in them


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## SlightlyVaped (Jun 16, 2011)

Thanks R3drock9. I'd be interested to hear if you can actually preserve it for 3-4 weeks.

If you are using that much tea, have you tried making it yourself? If so, do you find the Vermi T better?

Before I moved into an apartment I was looking into getting a worm bin to make my own. If you look into it many cities will subsidize the cost of a worm bin as it cuts down on garbage.

The city I live in offers these for $50 (I've seen some cities offer them for less with worms):

http://www.allthingsorganic.com/Waste_Programs/wriggly-wranch.asp

One of our local worm sellers in my area offer a bag version which seems pretty interesting:

http://theworminn.com/

I'd probably set one up if I had a patio or something as it seems like a great way to save some cash on nutrients as well as reduce the amount of waste that goes to the dump.


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## R3DROCk9 (Jun 16, 2011)

your welcome vape ....yeah the tea is good for 10-14days once you brew it, and another 10-14days after you dilute it. in other words, you brew it and split it in two..since its concentrated at that point, you put one of the concentrations in the fridge and leave it be.... then you dilute the other half of the brew with water....use the diluted one for the first two weeks (refridgerate in between uses tho), and then after the 10-14 days wen you use that up, you dilute the other half and its good for another 10-14days from that point. SOo....

10-14 days for concentrated brew & another 10-14days after you dilute the tea....itll go to smelling like a sewer wen its bad, so youll kno.


Also vape....the worm bins your referring to use red wiggler earthworms, which are NOT the same ones used for worm castings from wut ive gathered..i, too, looked into that awhile back 

and........ i also thought to put them in the soil to aerate it, bu i heard that unless i feed them food scraps, theyll end up eating my roots...lol ..again, this is all info i have gathered about the worms, bu it was awhile ago, so plz lemme kno if you hear of anything different...

p.s. i think they use nightcrawlers or sumthin for the castings....im not sure tho....maybe it was the nightcrawlers that were going to ravish my roots...i cant recall right now

because its 8:40 babEEE

twice as nice as 4:20....and at a better time..after dinner, before TV ...get like mHe

we in da millenium...42:0 is sum seventies stuff...good for its time, bu definitely outdated for NOW pce


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## SlightlyVaped (Jun 16, 2011)

That's not bad if it lasts up to 20-28 days, I might have to pick up a half gallon and try that out (use it for 10 days then add water and see how much longer it goes).

I am a very small gardener so I won't be needing a brewer anytime soon, but my local shop a few miles away brews it a couple times a week.

From what I have read red wiggler worms are a composting worm and many are using their castings for compost and tea. If it's the best species of worm for this purpose I don't know.

I'll have to do some research and see if any casting makers are listing what type of worms they are using to create their product. As these bins should be able to raise most types of worms and we can regulate their diets for our use.

Any thoughts on this Matt?


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## R3DROCk9 (Jun 16, 2011)

yeah matty..any thoughts??...answer the man's question already......you damn slacker


lol jus playin mentor matt. plz dont ravish my rootz like a compost worm

X^{D


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## Matt Rize (Jun 16, 2011)

SlightlyVaped said:


> That's not bad if it lasts up to 20-28 days, I might have to pick up a half gallon and try that out (use it for 10 days then add water and see how much longer it goes).
> 
> I am a very small gardener so I won't be needing a brewer anytime soon, but my local shop a few miles away brews it a couple times a week.
> 
> ...





> C.	WORMS
> 
> The two types of earthworm best suited to worm composting are the redworms: Eisenia foetida (commonly known as red wiggler, brandling, or manure worm) and Lumbricus rubellus They are often found in aged manure and compost heaps. Please do not use dew-worms (large size worms found in soil and compost) as they are not likely to survive.


http://www.cityfarmer.org/wormcomp61.html


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## SlightlyVaped (Jun 17, 2011)

There you go, now we can RIZE up against expensive vermicompost manufacturers, make our own with a $10 bucket, some worms, produce scraps and unpaid bills.

Might need to set up a small one under the sink for my small batches of tea.


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## sharpshoota (Jun 18, 2011)

Worms wont eat live plant roots. they dont have teeth... they suck in microbes and decaying (dead) food particles. 

Night crawlers or Super reds are larger and breed quicker than red wigglers, are used for composting as well as fishing. these are the burrowing kind.

red wigglers are mainly used for composting. are not the burrowing kind.

both breeds are completley different and do not cross breed either...


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## Matt Rize (Jun 19, 2011)

http://www.goveganic.net/spip.php?article33

Victoria Farm
GENEVA, FLORIDA
Victoria Farm is an expanding family farm. It is run by Kip and Emily in Geneva, Florida. In 2008, Victoria Farm became the first farm in North America to be Certified Stockfree-Organic through the U.K.&#8217;s standards for veganic farms. Their certification was awarded through joint efforts between the Vegan Organic Network in the U.K. and Quality Certification Services, a 3rd party certifier.

Victoria Farm has about 60 fruit and nut trees, which will act as a canopy for a future forest garden. Details of their forest garden establishment can be read online. Currently, the farmers consume most of the produce themselves, occasionally donating the surplus, and plan to sell future surpluses in their local area.

Using plant-based techniques, they seek to maximize their on-farm fertility, to increase overall energy efficiency, and to farm without the exploitation of animals. The farm&#8217;s fertility is maintained through green manure, compost, no-till and forest gardening practices.

They make their own compost, combining bahia grass and clover with chipped branch wood. Coastal hay and chipped branch wood are used to mulch the vegetable beds. To further enhance the nutrient cycle, they have begun brewing actively aerated compost tea (AACT), and micronutrient deficiencies are addressed with soluble kelp meal and alfalfa meal.

The farmers use vegan growing techniques because they do not want blood, bone, or products from confined animal feeding operations in their soils and in their food. They also have a small sanctuary of rescued chickens, pigs, and turkeys who they care for on the farm: the animals&#8217; bedding and manure are composted for landscaping use, but only plant-based composts are used for food production.

If you would like to contact Victoria Farm, you can send an email through this form and we will happily forward your message to the farmers. Please mention that your message is for Victoria Farm...


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## Matt Rize (Jun 20, 2011)

seed plant, tga plushberry purp pheno, vegan organic. 6.5 weeks, already flushed cause i'm smoking this whole plant.


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## Matt Rize (Jun 20, 2011)

Chernobyl, not the best pic. I'll take more with my real camera. These are all cell phone


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 20, 2011)

"already flushed cause i'm smoking this whole plant." LMFAO

I would, too!!! That looks sooooooooo tasty!!!!!!!


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## upthearsenal (Jun 21, 2011)

Nice! I wanted to ask you how your tga girls came out... I recently started 2 Qleaner, 2 Vortex, one Dairy Queen and a Chernobyl. Really looking forward to how these turn out if they are anything like yours, the Cher. looks awesome  are they both 6.5 wks in?

I should also be crossing a querkle with a space bomb male I have, should be fun.


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## R3DROCk9 (Jun 21, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> Worms wont eat live plant roots. they dont have teeth... they suck in microbes and decaying (dead) food particles.
> 
> Night crawlers or Super reds are larger and breed quicker than red wigglers, are used for composting as well as fishing. these are the burrowing kind.
> 
> ...



THANX GUYS!!!!

i think i was misled wen i inquired about worm castings before..hmm, i may start my own worm bin soon  

anywyas, so wut type of worm is best for making worm castings again??

im still a liddle confused....


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## Matt Rize (Jun 22, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Nice! I wanted to ask you how your tga girls came out... I recently started 2 Qleaner, 2 Vortex, one Dairy Queen and a Chernobyl. Really looking forward to how these turn out if they are anything like yours, the Cher. looks awesome  are they both 6.5 wks in?
> 
> I should also be crossing a querkle with a space bomb male I have, should be fun.


 yeah, those pics are 6.5 weeks. I'll have more soon. the Chernobyl, Vortex are both frosty, great smelling, and low yielding. the plush is high yield and color. the qleaner is boring next to the other three.,


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## NightbirdX (Jun 22, 2011)

How's everyone doing?  Been away awhile, a lot to catch up on I see. The Plushberry looks amazing, Matt. I am starting mine tonight actually. You motivated me into poppin seeds, lol. I'll be starting TGA Plushberry, Cali Connection Deadhead OG, Original Sour Diesel, ChemValley Kush, a Dinafem Moby Dick (would like either this or the Dinafem Blue Widow that I gave to a friend to be a male so I can cross the 2.) I'll be rounding that out with some AKG Jackpot Royale. I'm sure to find some dank... lol

The growing is going well. My 4 Blueberry plants are starting to be a pain in the arse. Very picky strain. My other plants love the regimen, these 4 do not. The nugs are very frosty but I have had a creeping discoloration which looked like Nuteburn, then Potassium Deficiency, on and on. Fan leaves are nuking a bit, still trying to get this squared away, but it is only on those 4 for right now, so I just accept that the strain might not like my grow style. 

Here is a pic of the Blueberry at 6 weeks. You can see the bottom fan leaf and what I was talking about. 


I did a little backtracking and found out that the Sour OG seeds from Cali Connection that I ordered were actually Sour Kush from Reserva Privada, and feminised at that. Ahh the things I was thinking of when I started all of this. I actually couldn't be happier with the Sour Kush though. It is one of the best plants I have seen and grown. Easy to maintain, bug and mold resistant, lots of bud sites, very frosty, and starting to stink to the high heavens. It really makes everything else in my room look stupid. Not mad at it at all. It grows so uniform and basically takes care of itself. I just put nutes and water on her and spray them weekly and they love me back. 4-5 weeks until they are done and I can't wait. 

Sour Kush @ Week 5.5



This Grand Daddy Purps is my other pride and joy. It is another amazing plant. It is very mold resistant, but the bugs do love it. It has huge fan leafs so you have to be sure to pay special attention to the bottoms when spraying. Grape Cherry Diesel smell, COVERED in trichs, big dense buds. What's not to love?  It is hard to see, but it is just starting to push the lavendar colour which darkens to a dark purple nug of goodness. Easier to see in the pictures I posted of my last harvest of it. 

GDP: Week 6



Enjoy the bud pr0n.


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## Matt Rize (Jun 22, 2011)

Todays Cannabis Cuts with Deejay Wiid. Subcool goes on, Dannky Danko, Nico Esconido, Selecta Nikka T and many more guests. 
http://podcasts.pcrcollective.org/CannabisCuts/CannabisCuts-20110621.mp3
Sub and I talk about the Plushberry briefly about 36 minutes in.


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## NightbirdX (Jun 22, 2011)

Sounded good Matt. Sounds like you are living the life.


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## Matt Rize (Jun 22, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Sounded good Matt. Sounds like you are living the life.


lol. The second part with Danko will be posted asap. The Blueberry is just like that brah. I grew that for almost a decade. Had to give her up but her medicine is unique, long lasting, and relaxing.


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## Matt Rize (Jun 22, 2011)

Plushberry not-purp pheno


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## NightbirdX (Jun 22, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> lol. The second part with Danko will be posted asap. The Blueberry is just like that brah. I grew that for almost a decade. Had to give her up but her medicine is unique, long lasting, and relaxing.




Ya I started talking to other friends who grow Blueberry and they said that they have the same problem. Be it organic or hydro it has the same problems, lol. I am thinking it just needs Nitrogen through about week 4-5 of flowering. I put 8ml/g Nature's Nectar Nitrogen into my mix last time and that seems to be stopping it. I just start to get freaked out and remember that it normally takes about a week before the plant starts to show marked improvement. It is definitely frosty and smells like blueberry muffins. I hope that it is as dank as it looks.  It just isn't going to yield as much as my White Rhino, Blue Cheese, and GDP will. Good for the experience though. It definitely kept me on my toes and I started having problems in week 4 of veg, lol. On to bigger and better things.

I am starting to think that genetics are half of the problem that we've been having. As we've grown and picked plants to keep growing, The weaker genetics give us fits and the stronger genetics are a dream. I kinda see it as an evolution. At first you grow bag seed because that's what you got. Then when you get into it, you get some nice cuts and grow those. After awhile, dealing with weak or hermie clones, you get so tired of it, you evolve to the next step and start a selection from seed so that you know what you are growing is legit and you get what you want. Then comes the time when other peoples work isn't enough and you evolve into a breeder, crossing and selecting, looking for that perfect strain for you and then you grow that. Then you just start producing seeds.


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## beeznutz (Jun 23, 2011)

do you guys use anything when taking cuttings? i'm a bit late and have to do it asap, my guy from the hydro store forgot to order rootstock for me and i dunno if i want to wait another week... im sure some of you use teas and such right? is there anything else that would help with rooting? i'm using rapid rooters plugs and have some additives that maybe are useful like hygrozyme, seaweed, myco madness..... 
i know i should be able to do it without any hormones but i'm taking a chance right now since i'm taking the cuttings right before i switch to 12/12 [i normally do it 2 weeks before, in case something goes wrong i can take more] and want to make sure the little ones make it...

goji berry juice maybe


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## upthearsenal (Jun 23, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> yeah, those pics are 6.5 weeks. I'll have more soon. the Chernobyl, Vortex are both frosty, great smelling, and low yielding. the plush is high yield and color. the qleaner is boring next to the other three.,


hmmm, any particualr reason you say that about the Qleaner? or is it just personal preference? My Cher. popped and looked great, but it isn't standing upright and hasn't for two days. I've seen this before and last time the seedling just died after a few days, hopefully this doesn't happen I was super stoked to grow this one out....


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## Matt Rize (Jun 23, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> hmmm, any particualr reason you say that about the Qleaner? or is it just personal preference? My Cher. popped and looked great, but it isn't standing upright and hasn't for two days. I've seen this before and last time the seedling just died after a few days, hopefully this doesn't happen I was super stoked to grow this one out....


 Yeah, the Qleaner was from an older batch of seeds, even came in different packaging. The plants were just less vigorous, nothing outstanding visually or by smell. Hope the Cher makes it. Is your light too far? Seedlings stretching?


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## Matt Rize (Jun 23, 2011)

Collab project with Selecta Nikka T. OG Kush "Solventless Wax"
rize up!


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 23, 2011)

He should start calling that Nikka T CAVIAR


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## upthearsenal (Jun 24, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Yeah, the Qleaner was from an older batch of seeds, even came in different packaging. The plants were just less vigorous, nothing outstanding visually or by smell. Hope the Cher makes it. Is your light too far? Seedlings stretching?


ha no, no stretching. It jsut refused to erect itself after a few days, its slowly making it's way upright though... I guess it's an odd to thing to describe without a picture.

Anyways, that OG wax looks crazy, I bet it's delicious.


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## NightbirdX (Jun 24, 2011)

Started my seed cracking yesterday. Starting a journal also. You guys inspired me and I think I've ironed out enough of my issues to post something you guys can watch. lol. 

So last night I started selection and started my Cali Connection Original Sour Diesel, Chem Valley Kush, and Deadhead OG; TGA Plushberry; Dinafem Moby Dick; and Alphakronik Jackpot Royale.

Will be doing a grow from seed through flowering and taking cuts before flowering for a pheno hunt. Looking for the sick pink Plushberry, the Red Jackpot, and the Cali Connection gear I'm looking for solid mom's for myself and a friend as keepers. I also will be doing a breeding project as I now have more space to play with.


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## Matt Rize (Jun 24, 2011)

[video=youtube;rsytP7k8aAo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsytP7k8aAo[/video]
I'm in a couple scenes of KK's movie trailer.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 24, 2011)

Looks wonderful. Whats the process in making "Solventless Wax"? 


Matt Rize said:


> Collab project with Selecta Nikka T. OG Kush "Solventless Wax"
> rize up!


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## Matt Rize (Jun 25, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Looks wonderful. Whats the process in making "Solventless Wax"?


Solventless Wax is Nikka's term for the best ice water extract. Nothing special, although we go to extreme measures to control all variables from start to finish.


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 25, 2011)

Hey Matt I know this is off topic, but do your plants show pre-flowers while in veg. before switching to 12/12 if vegged long enough???


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 25, 2011)

OIC. I went searching for a way to making a nice ear wax with out the use of harsh butane. I did find a nice glass BHO extractor that will hold 40 grams, that and Colibri Premium Butane. But then I found on youtube ~ a dry ice method . I am stoked and after harvest I will try the dry ice method to gather my trichs.


Matt Rize said:


> Solventless Wax is Nikka's term for the best ice water extract. Nothing special, although we go to extreme measures to control all variables from start to finish.


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## beeznutz (Jun 26, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> OIC. I went searching for a way to making a nice ear wax with out the use of harsh butane. I did find a nice glass BHO extractor that will hold 40 grams, that and Colibri Premium Butane. But then I found on youtube ~ a dry ice method . I am stoked and after harvest I will try the dry ice method to gather my trichs.


u have a link to that golden? i'm harvesting right now, it'll come in handy...
so how does everybody feel about butane extractors?i personally don't like the idea that much but a buddy of mine was out in colorado trying to setup shop there and brought back one...he was showing to me to it works etc., wasn't really my thing....
any reason why one would be concerned, health and environmentally speaking?


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 26, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dry+ice+hash&aq=6&oq=dry+ice <~~~There u go.


beeznutz said:


> u have a link to that golden? i'm harvesting right now, it'll come in handy...
> so how does everybody feel about butane extractors?i personally don't like the idea that much but a buddy of mine was out in colorado trying to setup shop there and brought back one...he was showing to me to it works etc., wasn't really my thing....
> any reason why one would be concerned, health and environmentally speaking?


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## SensiSoulJah (Jun 27, 2011)

Hello Matt, and thanks for taking the time to share all of this useful information with us! I have a question that just crossed my mind, and if it's already been asked somewhere in this post, forgive me, I've only read the first 10 pages so far... So I got to thinking, so technically when you grow something organically, you can use things such as bone and blood meal, fish products, manure, guano, etc... Now I totally agree with your logic in that a plant growing in nature is growing in a soil made mostly of decomposed plant matter, not so much animal waste or decomposing animal bodies... and now that I think about it, how weird it is to use these things for organic growing.

Now here's the question I was getting to: let's say you're a vegan or vegetarian (I try to be vegan, but that damn cheese always gets me!) and you're going to an organic co-op or grocery store to buy organic vegetables. Seeing as these plants were most likely grown with animal byproducts and/or waste, couldn't you argue that the plants themselves have animal in them? Perhaps I'm thinking about this wrong; do the animal by products get broken down in the soil, and the beneficial nutrients and minerals (N, P, K, etc) are taken up? So you technically argue that animal particles then do not make their way into the plants, rather the nutrients from the chemical process of the animal products being broken down... but still if you're a vegetarian/vegan for the reason that you do not want to consume animals, or further you're against any form of animal cruelty - aren't the animals used to make bone meal and blood meal being slaughtered in an unnatural fashion? Further, do the animals used to make bone meal and blood meal live on free range farms where they get to graze grass, and aren't feed corn and whatnot that was covered in pesticides? Is the meat that comes from the cows used to make blood/bone meal sold at organic markets? 

It seems that veganics will have to become the future of organic, as people are being more and more concerned with being all natural vegans - the way we were intended to be... I suppose that's opinion, but when you look at the facts, such as we don't have the teeth of a carnivore (everyone's always like "oh but the canine tooth"... in reality that tooth isn't that sharp when compared to that of a TRUE carnivore), our digestive track is longer like herbivores - not like the short digestive track of carnivores. The reasoning behind this is meat rots in the belly if the digestive track is too long... the only reason humans can consume meat on a regular basis is because they cook it... Not to mention the misinformation campaigns that took place back in the day, that told you your children would grow slowly, and would be inferior, protein deprived individuals... most americans have an overabundance of protein, and there is plenty of protein in nuts, seeds, legumes (beans) etc... These are all VERY logical reasons as to why we shouldn't eat meat... Sure there's some great tasting meals (steaks, burgers, hotdogs etc) that have unfortunately become tradition in many cultures, but I think people are beginning to realize the truth; that we've been lied to about meat our whole lives (I'm referencing the mass amount of americans that consume meat, not those of you who have been fortunate enough to be lifelong vegetarians/vegans). 

And if you start to look into how these animals are "grown" and "harvested" much like plants, and the whole unnatural process of their lives, from feeding them pesticide-covered corn when they should be eating grass - to the fact that the number one pork provider for the US is located in Mexico (where there are less health codes), whose products are sold at places such as McDonald's and Subway, raise pigs indoors, in a 100% unnatural life, from it's artificial insemination to it's slaughter in the cage it was raised, these pigs never even see the light of day. And the toxic chemical build-up you acquire by eating these products... Oh and let's not forget facts like it takes 8 lbs of grain to produce 1 lb of pork... yet 35,000 children die everyday of starvation? But I digress... I've only been vegetarian for a half a year, so I know what it's like being on the other side, and thinking about how impossible it would be to become a vegetarian... and now I'm left wishing I had done it WAYYY sooner. I'm sure now a good portion of this community says "Okay, this peace-loving-hippie-son-of-a-bitch is going off on ridiculous tangents" but all of these things are tied together... and if you REALLY consider some of these facts, could you honestly say this is really a world you want to live in? Just imagine for a second in the randomness of you being born, you happened to born on the other side of the planet in Africa, and couldn't go get a double cheese burger for a dollar and didn't have the luxury of talking about a plant that you most likely consume for fun on the internet...

All this being said, I've purchased some Sour Diesel claimed to be grown with Kushman Veganics and it truly is some of the most phenomenal smoke I've ever experienced, and I like to consider myself a connoisseur... I've been to 15-20 dispensaries in the NorCal area and the first thing I always say when I walk in is "I need the best of the best, I have a very high tolerance"  Thanks for the inspiration Matt, I've been reading a lot of your work on the internet... good stuff. I'm definitely going to go veganic my next grow, I'll let you know how it goes!

Sensi


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## Matt Rize (Jun 27, 2011)

PakaloloHui said:


> Hey Matt I know this is off topic, but do your plants show pre-flowers while in veg. before switching to 12/12 if vegged long enough???


Yes, most Cannabis plants grown from seed will show sex as "pre-flowers", usually a month+ into veg. Check out this old thread: https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/5446-preflowers.html


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## Matt Rize (Jun 27, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> u have a link to that golden? i'm harvesting right now, it'll come in handy...
> so how does everybody feel about butane extractors?i personally don't like the idea that much but a buddy of mine was out in colorado trying to setup shop there and brought back one...he was showing to me to it works etc., wasn't really my thing....
> any reason why one would be concerned, health and environmentally speaking?


I wrote an article on BHO (butane honey oil). Check it out, very informative. http://medicalmarijuana.com/experts/expert/title.cfm?artID=70


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 27, 2011)

Oh nice~ I have been looking into BHO for 2 years now. I have yet to try it. But last week a friend gave me some ear wax and it was like "AWWWWW".


Matt Rize said:


> I wrote an article on BHO (butane honey oil). Check it out, very informative. http://medicalmarijuana.com/experts/expert/title.cfm?artID=70


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## Matt Rize (Jun 27, 2011)

I got to session with Subcool, here's King TGA dabbing my OG Kush ice water extract. Big up to Selecta Nikka T (guy with wrapped up dreds on the right) for making his "Solventless Wax" with me. And big ups to my homie Organamike also pictured. Whoever's hairy arm that is... thanks for being in the way lol ALSO BIG UP STEEP HILL LAB for hosting!


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## NightbirdX (Jun 27, 2011)

Awesome man! Wish I coulda been out there. Maybe next year. They need to do something out here in the Midwest.


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## RPsmoke420 (Jun 27, 2011)

ha! good times Rize. Thanks for coming by the booth! Had an awesome weekend. Biggest ups! 

and looks like my big ole arm in the way... haha. My bad! But I got you a decent video of Sub dabing that hash.


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## Matt Rize (Jun 27, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> ha! good times Rize. Thanks for coming by the booth! Had an awesome weekend. Biggest ups!
> 
> and looks like my big ole arm in the way... haha. My bad! But I got you a decent video of Sub dabing that hash.


haha, well in that case you were in the perfect spot. big ups to RP for hosting the dab party. I want to see that video brah!


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## RPsmoke420 (Jun 27, 2011)

You see Rize in the background, and Selecta Nikka T providing the proper dab of the solvent-less wax for Subcool.


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## NightbirdX (Jun 27, 2011)

Right about now I really miss my native Cali. How was the event?


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## RPsmoke420 (Jun 27, 2011)

Was great! A much nicer venue then last. Makes me excited to see how it keeps getting better. But I really had a blast this weekend.


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## NightbirdX (Jun 27, 2011)

Ya, I really need to make it out there. Do they accept cross state Medicinal Cards? That would just be awesome, lol.


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## RPsmoke420 (Jun 27, 2011)

Gotta have a State card (something Ca is slacking on. I know other states recognize out of state patients). But I met quite a few out of state guys... so you can make it happen.


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## Matt Rize (Jun 27, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Ya, I really need to make it out there. Do they accept cross state Medicinal Cards? That would just be awesome, lol.


I accept cross state cards, also those with no cards, lol. dabbing out anyone who came thru


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## NightbirdX (Jun 28, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I accept cross state cards, also those with no cards, lol. dabbing out anyone who came thru


Lol, I'll be sure to find your booth then when I make my way out there.


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## SensiSoulJah (Jun 28, 2011)

Hey Matt - I posted on page 109 and was wondering if you had any answers/feedback for me? Sorry for the long windedness in advance.... Great post by the way


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## RPsmoke420 (Jun 28, 2011)

SensiSoulJah said:


> Hey Matt - I posted on page 109 and was wondering if you had any answers/feedback for me? Sorry for the long windedness in advance.... Great post by the way


Of course you could argue your point.

One would argue, that by providing animal products to the soil, you are not feeding the plants, but feeding the soil. As the soil food web progresses, those inputs are the cause of plant growth, but it is not the direct uptake of animal 'products' that create the plant. 

Also, most soil amendment products are by-products of the Animal farming industry, and is not it's own cause for slaughter. 

As the questions on quality of your 'meal', this has to do with the producer. I know I can get locally made Fish Bone meal. I can also source local bone meal. However, if you must buy commercial, do your research (goes for local too. Local doesn't = quality). Blood meal is generally a by-product of a bovine slaughter house, and not that cows are being slaughtered just for their blood. It's making use of a waste product. 

Hope that helps to answer some of those questions. You didn't make it easy to find 'em! lol


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## dsmoke1 (Jun 28, 2011)

Wish I would have known who was who at the cup! It was jam-packed anyhow  Great stuff going on here. Love the "veganics" theory. I have been having great success with a watered down system within your guidelines by creating my own organic concentrate that keeps my plants healthy and smelling sweeter than ever. I use it standalone in my own soil for the first few weeks of flower, and then water thereafter. In hydro, I run as a bloom enhancer alongside my general nutrient regimen. If you're interested, here's a detailed write up: https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/429193-indoor-dwc-2x600w-jack-ripper-16.html#post5874371

You're completely right though. I may not have seen it all, but I've seen enough to understand that there is a science behind creating chemical and biological reactions within your entire grow operation. Organic or "Sythenic" or "Chemical", it's all the same. You're providing energy to the plant through various chemical reactions. The great thing about organics, or "veganics", is that you, the grower, are in control of much less. In this aspect, that's a good thing. Mother nature is way better at growing plants than you and I ever will be, period. I'm cool with that, and in being so, I'll definitely let her handle most of the guess work. See what I mean? I know you do  Healthier plants, healthier smoke, heavier wallet, and less headaches- I love a good Hydro/DWC project just like any other grow-nerd, but the proof is in the pudding. Thanks for the good work, and that purple Plush Berry looks beyond tasty. Great job!


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## R3DROCk9 (Jun 28, 2011)

_"I'm in a couple scenes of KK's movie trailer."_

are you the dude with the hat, sunglasses, and mustache or the the skinny fellow with the mustache and beard towards the end??.....jus curious

ima introduce myself next time...


oh and p.s. matty....jus started workin at a reggae restaurant down here in san diego....if you ever make it down, lemme kno....i get you sum food wen yuh dayuh......pce


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## Matt Rize (Jun 28, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> _"I'm in a couple scenes of KK's movie trailer."_
> 
> are you the dude with the hat, sunglasses, and mustache or the the skinny fellow with the mustache and beard towards the end??.....jus curious
> 
> ...


the guy with the hat and sunglasses it SUBCOOL of TGA, he has his own subforum here. That is his sh*t-talking hat iirc. I'm the skinny dude with the beard, come on now. Between the garden, hashing, and the net... I barely eat. I run on cannabinoids.


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## NightbirdX (Jun 28, 2011)

You know whats funny is that I have actually lost about 70lbs in the last 8 months due to lack of sleep, over working, and stress. Lol running a dispensary and growing and managing, yada yada... Turnin my hair white. lol


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## Matt Rize (Jun 29, 2011)

Check out Subcool and MzJill's video tour of the SF medicup. I'm all over it!
[video=youtube;LUfy9lycNMw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUfy9lycNMw[/video]


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## NightbirdX (Jun 29, 2011)

You were lookin good in there man. Big praise coming from a big veteran. It looked like it was a lot of fun. I gotta get out there next year.


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## beeznutz (Jun 29, 2011)

man...i'm having some issues with my ladies and it's been happening around the time i've switched to Bio Canna line of nutes- can it be related? i was using GO till about mid veg then switched to bio vega...here's what's going on:







the brown spots are dry and crunchy, they'll just crush if u touch them.
i'm about to switch to 12/12 tonite and did a water flush last nite.....
plants are tall [about 2ft] and bushy, running about 600ppm with BioVega+CalMg+B1+Hygrozime+GO Bio Weed. didn't have any issues with new growth, seems to be growing but these spots are worying because iv noticed they are spreading.
whatya guys think?


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## Matt Rize (Jun 29, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> man...i'm having some issues with my ladies and it's been happening around the time i've switched to Bio Canna line of nutes- can it be related? i was using GO till about mid veg then switched to bio vega...here's what's going on:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like your pH is off. Do you know what pH you've been using? Also, check the expiration date for the BioCanna.


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## RPsmoke420 (Jun 29, 2011)

My first guess would be a Phosphorus def. Maybe a couple things going on? I don't know. Are these the middle leaves? Upper? Lower? 

Maybe a nice foliar feed of a soluble seaweed? Lots of micro's and tends to green up plants. 

Soil overly soggy? Acidic or alkaline? Might be able to work in some fine bat guano. Or use a complete fertilizer with some phosphorus.


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## upthearsenal (Jun 29, 2011)

"ssome stupid fucken bubble", lol I guess that's the Subcool seal of approval. Cool vid man, shows me what I'm missing


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## beeznutz (Jun 29, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Looks like your pH is off. Do you know what pH you've been using? Also, check the expiration date for the BioCanna.


k, I'll check the date tonite and do a ph test- broke my last pen and didn't get one for a while but got a new one now, jus need to cslibrate it.

thx Matt....


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## beeznutz (Jun 29, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> My first guess would be a Phosphorus def. Maybe a couple things going on? I don't know. Are these the middle leaves? Upper? Lower?
> 
> Maybe a nice foliar feed of a soluble seaweed? Lots of micro's and tends to green up plants.
> 
> Soil overly soggy? Acidic or alkaline? Might be able to work in some fine bat guano. Or use a complete fertilizer with some phosphorus.


started on the bottom then moved up. when I first noticed it I started foliar with B1+GO Bio Weed twice a week.
I have humboldt Natural Bloom which is 0-10-0 which is my phosphate add....
also, I'm doing hydro in hempy buckets and been veging fir about 65 days..

thx RP....


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## RPsmoke420 (Jun 29, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> started on the bottom then moved up. when I first noticed it I started foliar with B1+GO Bio Weed twice a week.
> I have humboldt Natural Bloom which is 0-10-0 which is my phosphate add....
> also, I'm doing hydro in hempy buckets and been veging fir about 65 days..
> 
> thx RP....


You are very welcome Beeznuts. 

Soil ph can often lock out phosphorus, so you may have a one-two punch going on. High levels of Iron and Zinc can also make phosphorus bound, and unavailable to plants. I would water with some plain water lightly. Check pH of soil or runoff. Adjust water pH and water again with adjusted pH'd water. On the next feeding day, maybe add some Humboldt Bloom at ~ 5ml/gallon. Some people report really low pH numbers after adding hygrozyme... just a thought.


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 29, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> man...i'm having some issues with my ladies and it's been happening around the time i've switched to Bio Canna line of nutes- can it be related? i was using GO till about mid veg then switched to bio vega...here's what's going on:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Definitely phosphorus, not a doubt in my mind. That's the textbook expression of P def, especially with the damaged areas being very brittle. Phosphorus is best applied at the root, but a foliar feed will help somewhat. Depending on what stage of growth you're at, this could be an instance where a chemical fertilizer is warranted (only to correct the issue and get things back on track). Organic/veganic will take a few days longer to correct it.


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## Da Almighty Jew (Jun 30, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> man...i'm having some issues with my ladies and it's been happening around the time i've switched to Bio Canna line of nutes- can it be related? i was using GO till about mid veg then switched to bio vega...here's what's going on:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like there is some type of lock out. Could be from a few things, not enough light, incorrect npk proportions, ph. I would suggest use water only for the next few days and see if it clears up.


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 30, 2011)

I agree with Wolverine, it is a P def in the veg. state of growth.


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## beeznutz (Jun 30, 2011)

thx guys, it looks like P def then.... fed them lightly last nite with 5ml/gl as per RP's advice, we'll se what happens...
gotta say that that Natural Bloom is some heavy thick shite- took me a bit of effort to get it mixed, dunno if i'm gonna b using it
again not that there's anything bad about it just dont think it works with my setup, have to find a different source of P thats thinner..
i had to take cuttings so i did some trimming as well getting rid of sick leaves as well as bottom leaves so hopefully that will help.

@Matt... checked the date on Vega, it's 7/12 so should be good on that end. also checked the ph on the runoff and the one that has
the problem which is in 100% perlite came out a bit stinky and the ph was 6.5...then i checked anotha plant which is in a mix of perlite
and grow rocks and the runoff came out the same color, barely any smell, and ph at 8.0. now, this runoff water is from 2 days ago when i did a flush on all the plants [RO water but not ph'd cause didn't have the pen] that was left on the botom of the bucket, if that matters....

so far iv been feeding with nutes for about 2-3 weeks straight then do a flush and repeat the process but i'm starting to think i should change it, maybe feed-feed-water or something like that....dunno , we'll see.
at any rate, thx to all for the input, i'll let u kno how it goes.


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## Matt Rize (Jun 30, 2011)

*Check this out! Kush Magazine published an article by Steep Hill Lab and myself on Ice Water Hash. page 46!!!*
STEEP HILL LAB: EXPERT HASH MAKER WORKS WITH STEEP HILL LAB TO LEARN MORE ABOUT EXTRACTION


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## R3DROCk9 (Jul 1, 2011)

beez, also up your PPM....plant based nutes are traditionally weak......around 2/3 the strength of their chemically synthesized counterparts.


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## Matt Rize (Jul 2, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> beez, also up your PPM....plant based nutes are traditionally weak......around 2/3 the strength of their chemically synthesized counterparts.


I think that 1/3 of the nutrition has to be processed via microbial nutrient cycling and therefore PBNutes appear to be weaker. But yeah, they are way thicker than chem nutes.


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## SensiSoulJah (Jul 2, 2011)

Hey Matt - so I found one website selling Bio Terra Plus, however, unfortunately it cost more to ship the soil then the soil costs itself... What would you recommend I use instead? My first guess would be Roots? Gonna give the veganics thing a try... I've gotten some really good veganic grown buds from a local shop and I'm looking to grow the best medicine possible. Here's a list of stuff I got today - Kelp, dolomite lime, azomite, greensand, alaska humus, epsom salts, molasses, cal mag, hygrozyme, alfalfa meal, cotton seed meal, b1, marine mineral magic micro nutrient (I'm not sure if this has any animal products, I'll have to get back to you on that), Bountea. The majority were OMRI certified. As far as you know, if I used these supplements would I be growing veganics? Is there anything I should cut out? And most importantly, what base soil should I use? Any input is greatly appreciated, thanks for your time.


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## SlightlyVaped (Jul 2, 2011)

Nice article Matt.

Is it possible for you to do the same test with a couple different strains?

My current set up is the 220, 190, 160, 45 and 25 as I found the same as you that a majority of good hash comes between the 160 and 45 screens. However, I have kept the 25 since I noticed when running all 8 bags that some strains (or maybe grower) would produce some extremely oily/melty hash.

Chem4 seems to be one of those strains that I find some good stuff in the lower bag, however I have also run different strains where the 25 was throw away or cooking grade (last run like this I think was PK but it was a little drier as well so that probably had something to do with it).

I would be curious to see if maybe a more indica dominant strain would produce different results across the different bags.


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## beeznutz (Jul 2, 2011)

SensiSoulJah said:


> Hey Matt - so I found one website selling Bio Terra Plus, however, unfortunately it cost more to ship the soil then the soil costs itself... What would you recommend I use instead? My first guess would be Roots? Gonna give the veganics thing a try... I've gotten some really good veganic grown buds from a local shop and I'm looking to grow the best medicine possible. Here's a list of stuff I got today - Kelp, dolomite lime, azomite, greensand, alaska humus, epsom salts, molasses, cal mag, hygrozyme, alfalfa meal, cotton seed meal, b1, marine mineral magic micro nutrient (I'm not sure if this has any animal products, I'll have to get back to you on that), Bountea. The majority were OMRI certified. As far as you know, if I used these supplements would I be growing veganics? Is there anything I should cut out? And most importantly, what base soil should I use? Any input is greatly appreciated, thanks for your time.


was loking at ordering it myself, found a place to order it can't think of the name of it but they said they had 16 bags left, didn't check the shipping but I'm sure itll b outrageous...
Humboldt Mix was recommended by Kushman, FYI... I
thinking of getting it since my local guy can get it in the store - you might wanna look into that...


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## Matt Rize (Jul 2, 2011)

SensiSoulJah said:


> Hey Matt - so I found one website selling Bio Terra Plus, however, unfortunately it cost more to ship the soil then the soil costs itself... What would you recommend I use instead? My first guess would be Roots? Gonna give the veganics thing a try... I've gotten some really good veganic grown buds from a local shop and I'm looking to grow the best medicine possible. Here's a list of stuff I got today - Kelp, dolomite lime, azomite, greensand, alaska humus, epsom salts, molasses, cal mag, hygrozyme, alfalfa meal, cotton seed meal, b1, marine mineral magic micro nutrient (I'm not sure if this has any animal products, I'll have to get back to you on that), Bountea. The majority were OMRI certified. As far as you know, if I used these supplements would I be growing veganics? Is there anything I should cut out? And most importantly, what base soil should I use? Any input is greatly appreciated, thanks for your time.


Yeah, forget the BTPlus, it's gone forever. Use whatever is available, the bag mixes are not that different. I used to mix Happy Frog and Ocean Forest, then amend that with meals, lime, compost, and perlite. Roots is good, lots of folks use that.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 2, 2011)

SlightlyVaped said:


> Nice article Matt.
> 
> Is it possible for you to do the same test with a couple different strains?
> 
> ...


Thanks, cost me a whole batch of hash, lol. So I ran a smaller load 
You are 100% correct about variety changing the hash quality, especially the 25 and 120 bags. We have more tests on the way.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 2, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> was loking at ordering it myself, found a place to order it can't think of the name of it but they said they had 16 bags left, didn't check the shipping but I'm sure itll b outrageous...
> Humboldt Mix was recommended by Kushman, FYI... I
> thinking of getting it since my local guy can get it in the store - you might wanna look into that...


I havn't seen the humboldt mix anywhere. Let me know if you find it and how it works for you. I'm still using, and reusing, my BTPlus. But the point is to mix quality peat (ie most potting mixes) and quality coco (ie canna) to get the right blend without needing too much perlite. That's what Roots is, iirc, peat and coco with a lil perlite. Add some worm casting, or compost, as both peat and coco lack humus.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 2, 2011)

What have I been up to?
Sour D ice extracted wax:





Plushberry from Subcool:















Chernobyl:


----------



## upthearsenal (Jul 2, 2011)

So I was searching 'glomus intraradices' and found this amongst the other results: http://medicalmarijuana.com/experts/expert/title.cfm?artID=2; pretty sweet article man.

Is the bit at the bottom written by someone from bioag? 

Dank ass pictures btw


----------



## SlightlyVaped (Jul 3, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Yeah, forget the BTPlus, it's gone forever. Use whatever is available, the bag mixes are not that different. I used to mix Happy Frog and Ocean Forest, then amend that with meals, lime, compost, and perlite. Roots is good, lots of folks use that.


I'm having good results with my vegan organic grow doing a 70/30 mix of Happy Frog & Canna Coco (more happy frog), not quite veganic but I don't think BTPlus is either.

Ken's GDP Flower Day 20


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 3, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> So I was searching 'glomus intraradices' and found this amongst the other results: http://medicalmarijuana.com/experts/expert/title.cfm?artID=2; pretty sweet article man.
> 
> Is the bit at the bottom written by someone from bioag?
> 
> Dank ass pictures btw


Thanks UptheA, I got a new camera  . I've been working on putting some good info together over there. 
Yes, the info at the bottom of the Inoculants article is from Dr. Ryan Zadow of BioAg. Good call.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 3, 2011)

SlightlyVaped said:


> I'm having good results with my vegan organic grow doing a 70/30 mix of Happy Frog & Canna Coco (more happy frog), not quite veganic but I don't think BTPlus is either.
> 
> Ken's GDP Flower Day 20
> 
> View attachment 1673898


Exactly, thanks for the feedback. Nice GDP.


----------



## hazorazo (Jul 3, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Collab project with Selecta Nikka T. OG Kush "Solventless Wax"
> rize up!


Wow, Matt! I need to keep up with you more often! Your plushberry pics are fantastic. I am sure Subcool appreciates having folks like you around to flaunt his great stuff! Good work, man! Are there any events in Oregon that you get to? Hope all is well. It sure looks like it from the pics....haha.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 5, 2011)

hazorazo said:


> Wow, Matt! I need to keep up with you more often! Your plushberry pics are fantastic. I am sure Subcool appreciates having folks like you around to flaunt his great stuff! Good work, man! Are there any events in Oregon that you get to? Hope all is well. It sure looks like it from the pics....haha.


Hey thanks man. All is well. If I'm up in OR I'll post it here. 

Plushberry, pink pheno.


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## Matt Rize (Jul 5, 2011)

plushberry purp pheno


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## NightbirdX (Jul 5, 2011)

Looking good man. I got my 10 plushberries goin now, they are lookin great. Can't wait to flower them.


----------



## RPsmoke420 (Jul 5, 2011)

SlightlyVaped said:


> Nice article Matt.
> 
> Is it possible for you to do the same test with a couple different strains?
> 
> ...


Steep Hill Lab works directly with the growers and hash (edible/tincture/etc) producers. If you are a CA patient, hit them up and see about some lab testing. Who knows, maybe it'll help with the vending. 



Matt Rize said:


> I havn't seen the humboldt mix anywhere. Let me know if you find it and how it works for you. I'm still using, and reusing, my BTPlus. But the point is to mix quality peat (ie most potting mixes) and quality coco (ie canna) to get the right blend without needing too much perlite. That's what Roots is, iirc, peat and coco with a lil perlite. Add some worm casting, or compost, as both peat and coco lack humus.


From what I understand, Humboldt Mix is pretty much Sunshine #4 or Pro-Mix. Not bad. 

Roots is great, but you get the Gnats. Not a big deal, and seems more and more soils come with the little guys. I like the 707 myself.


----------



## beeznutz (Jul 5, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> Steep Hill Lab works directly with the growers and hash (edible/tincture/etc) producers. If you are a CA patient, hit them up and see about some lab testing. Who knows, maybe it'll help with the vending.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


haha, Roots comes with little friends inside each bag, huh? what do u think makes the gnats like Roots mix?
i'm also looking at the Sunshine Organic mixes which seem to be basic and are OMRI. is it a big deal not using any bat guano or worm castings in the mix? i found this http://www.vitallandscaping.com/index.php/soil-a-amendments/soil-amendments/vital-earthsr-organic-compost-omri-
for adding compost, seems kosher.....


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 5, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> Roots is great, but you get the Gnats. Not a big deal, and seems more and more soils come with the little guys. I like the 707 myself.


I heard the gnats are coming from the middle man, not from roots directly, and the gnats are affecting all the potting mixes from this middleman. ??


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## PakaloloHui (Jul 5, 2011)

He's probably paid to let it get infected by people that make the products to get rid of the problem.

You never know...


----------



## SlightlyVaped (Jul 5, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> Steep Hill Lab works directly with the growers and hash (edible/tincture/etc) producers. If you are a CA patient, hit them up and see about some lab testing. Who knows, maybe it'll help with the vending.


Thanks RP.

I am a patient and familiar with Steep Hill Labs (a few collectives in my area use them), however I am not a vendor and only make it for my own use. 

Plus I'm sure they would want more material than I can pull out of my one gallon kit.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 5, 2011)

they only need a gram or two to get you solid test results.


----------



## Vindicated (Jul 5, 2011)

Matt when are you coming out with another article already, lol.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 6, 2011)

Vindicated said:


> Matt when are you coming out with another article already, lol.


Check this one out. Kushman and veganics is on the news with www.uf4a.org Go Mieko!
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Why_a_Mother_Uses_Pot_to_Treat_Her_Autistic_Son_Bay_Area-125062389.html

And here is my post on juicing, with my video.
Juicing with rize

Here is my newest grow info:
Vegan Organics with rize


----------



## RPsmoke420 (Jul 6, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> haha, Roots comes with little friends inside each bag, huh? what do u think makes the gnats like Roots mix?
> i'm also looking at the Sunshine Organic mixes which seem to be basic and are OMRI. is it a big deal not using any bat guano or worm castings in the mix? i found this http://www.vitallandscaping.com/index.php/soil-a-amendments/soil-amendments/vital-earthsr-organic-compost-omri-
> for adding compost, seems kosher.....





Matt Rize said:


> I heard the gnats are coming from the middle man, not from roots directly, and the gnats are affecting all the potting mixes from this middleman. ??


You got it. Word is, it's the shipping company, and effect much more then just Roots. They said the shipping company stores the bags outside, before shipping. Apparently this is a fungus gnat heaven. During transport, the adults usually are blow out, but the eggs are left behind. You start watering, and bam... gnats. I think FF soils are also having this issue, as well as some small companies using the same shipping. 




PakaloloHui said:


> He's probably paid to let it get infected by people that make the products to get rid of the problem.
> 
> You never know...


Contact roots. They've been hooking their customers up with free nematodes (natural predator of the eggs/larva). Helps. I get my own at a local shop

I store my soils with a sponge soaked in a nematode solution. Water it once in awhile. spray with neem. I mix a 'super soil' so I do this while it cooks, and gets ready. Usually don't have any issues. 



SlightlyVaped said:


> Thanks RP.
> 
> I am a patient and familiar with Steep Hill Labs (a few collectives in my area use them), however I am not a vendor and only make it for my own use.
> 
> Plus I'm sure they would want more material than I can pull out of my one gallon kit.


Good to hear man. 

Matt nailed it. They need about 1 gram of concentrate to get you your results. 

If you ever decide you want to start producing more, or want to start vending to collectives, email: [email protected] 



Vindicated said:


> Matt when are you coming out with another article already, lol.


Ya Matt!


----------



## PakaloloHui (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks RP, I have only scene a few gnats and I easily got rid of them with a neem drench and a layer of Diatomaetious Earth on top of the soil, a sticky trap around the stalk and problem solved.

Still use my roots and got plenty of supersoil


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## RPsmoke420 (Jul 6, 2011)

PakaloloHui said:


> Thanks RP, I have only scene a few gnats and I easily got rid of them with a neem drench and a layer of Diatomaetious Earth on top of the soil, a sticky trap around the stalk and problem solved.
> 
> Still use my roots and got plenty of supersoil


You bet brother! No worries. 

I also rock the neem to cut down those adults. A little neem, a little pro-tekt spray and the nematodes as a soil drench

Another idea, when storing your super soil... you can throw one of those nematode sponges on the soil. Then water in some nematodes from time to time. Seems to work for my soil bins.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 6, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> You bet brother! No worries.
> 
> I also rock the neem to cut down those adults. A little neem, a little pro-tekt spray and the nematodes as a soil drench
> 
> Another idea, when storing your super soil... you can throw one of those nematode sponges on the soil. Then water in some nematodes from time to time. Seems to work for my soil bins.


I'm using granulated BTi (like mosquito dunks but slower release and higher quality) and neem cake in my media. gnats are 99% gone with that combo.


----------



## beeznutz (Jul 6, 2011)

do you guys spray anything for prevention? iv been using pest-out and it works allright, u kinda have to keep doing it weekly- is neem oil from dyna better? pest out has the neem plus a few other things in it.....
this is when is gonna get super hot and humid and i kno these little bastards r gonna attack my ladies, already starting to...


----------



## PakaloloHui (Jul 6, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I'm using granulated BTi (like mosquito dunks but slower release and higher quality) and neem cake in my media. gnats are 99% gone with that combo.


Hey matt,

I got that same BTi Mosquito stuff for my koi pond, how do you apply it to your soil. ie. my supersoil bin.


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## RPsmoke420 (Jul 6, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I'm using granulated BTi (like mosquito dunks but slower release and higher quality) and neem cake in my media. gnats are 99% gone with that combo.


Good deal. Would definitely work indoors. 

Make sure to use BTi, and not just BT. BT stands for *bacillus thuringiensis. *This is more effective with Caterpillars (moth and butterfly). Where BTi is *bacillus thuringiensis israelensis *and will work to control fungus gnats in an indoor situation. Outdoors, it doesn't seem to be as effective. 



beeznutz said:


> do you guys spray anything for prevention? iv been using pest-out and it works allright, u kinda have to keep doing it weekly- is neem oil from dyna better? pest out has the neem plus a few other things in it.....
> this is when is gonna get super hot and humid and i kno these little bastards r gonna attack my ladies, already starting to...


What are the "few other things"?

Some places will mix small amounts of chemical pesticides to make their product more effective. I am not someone who is 100% against all synthetic products, but I simply like to know what I am using. 

I use Dyna-Gro cold pressed neem right now. I am not brand loyal... simply look for a 100% cold pressed neem product. I mix mine with Pro-tekt. 

I use neem as my prevention. I spray early, and fairly often in veg (every 7-10 days). Outdoors I also work in some Compost Tea sprays, as well as BT sprays (battle those damn caterpillars). I work to keep my grow clean. I do not wear my daily clothes into the grow rooms. No animals (ok.... the dog sneaks in from time to time, but I'm getting better at that. lol). etc. Outside is always a battle. 



PakaloloHui said:


> Hey matt,
> 
> I got that same BTi Mosquito stuff for my koi pond, how do you apply it to your soil. ie. my supersoil bin.


I'd bet Matt is rocking the granulated version of the BTi dunks. Comes in little cruched up chunks. I would work them directly into the soil. Water them in, and allow the super soil to cook like normal. Work in some neem cake along with your next super soil run. Adds some NPK and neem oil.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 6, 2011)

RP for the win! Thanks mayn


----------



## Wolverine97 (Jul 6, 2011)

I read that if your medium is composed of more than 1% neem cake it could stunt young plants and/or prevent seed germination...
Are you noticing any reduced vigor after transplant? Anything that would lend credence to this? I read it on a suppliers' website (linked below), and it doesn't seem like they would want to discourage it's use whatsoever.

http://www.neemresource.com/NeemCake.html


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## Matt Rize (Jul 6, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I read that if your medium is composed of more than 1% neem cake it could stunt young plants and/or prevent seed germination...
> Are you noticing any reduced vigor after transplant? Anything that would lend credence to this? I read it on a suppliers' website (linked below), and it doesn't seem like they would want to discourage it's use whatsoever.
> 
> http://www.neemresource.com/NeemCake.html


a little goes a long way with neem cake. a couple tbs makes 40 gallons potting mix smell like neem.


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## Wolverine97 (Jul 6, 2011)

I take it you haven't noticed any ill effects...


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 7, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I take it you haven't noticed any ill effects...


just a lack of gnats.


----------



## beeznutz (Jul 7, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> What are the "few other things"?
> 
> Some places will mix small amounts of chemical pesticides to make their product more effective. I am not someone who is 100% against all synthetic products, but I simply like to know what I am using.
> 
> ...


this stuff is omri which is why i got it, that and it got a lot of good reviews....however, after checking the ingredients again i now realize it doesn't have any neem 
i'll be damned if it doesn't smell just like it though.....it's clove, garlic, and cottonseed:
http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/itemdesc.asp?ic=PCGCM16&eq=&Tp=

so ur spraying 7-10 days, that's pretty much what i have to do, it just never really
seems like i get any extended of time without seeing some little dude flying around..


----------



## RPsmoke420 (Jul 7, 2011)

Here is another option I have read, never tried:


> Start by mixing equal parts of Crustation meal (crab, lobster), and Neem seed meal.
> 
> Apply as a lite top dressing after a soil drench. A fungas developes that the creepy crawleys don't like, and can't reproduce in. The fungas looks like a little tuffs of mold here or there. I use 1/2 -1 tbsp for a 5 gallon pot.


I would probably also try the masquito dunks. Either buy the big ones, crush them up, and soak in water, or buy the granulated. Started applying the BTi to get them under control. 

Sticky traps!

Make sure when you spray, you SOAK the plant. It should look like it came outta the pool. Dripping. Soak the soil. I come back a little later, and spray the soil again. The little bastards fly around when you start spraying, so making sure to hit them again, maybe helps? 

I get outbreaks from time to time. Right now I am putting up a fight. That time of year I suppose.


----------



## mrbong73 (Jul 7, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> just a lack of gnats.


I've experienced this as well. 
Since adding neem seed meal and crab meal to my homemade soil mix I have noticed the absence of those pesky critters. 
I've also noticed that top dressing neem meal and/or the application of a neem tea will clear up a gnat problem as well.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 8, 2011)

Check this crazy shit out. Go TGA Subcool genetics! rize up!


----------



## TheOrganic (Jul 8, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> haha, Roots comes with little friends inside each bag, huh? what do u think makes the gnats like Roots mix?
> i'm also looking at the Sunshine Organic mixes which seem to be basic and are OMRI. is it a big deal not using any bat guano or worm castings in the mix? i found this http://www.vitallandscaping.com/index.php/soil-a-amendments/soil-amendments/vital-earthsr-organic-compost-omri-
> for adding compost, seems kosher.....


I'm currently growing a OG kush in....well started in Sunshine organic mix and the whole grow in veg was lacking nutrients had to supplement like crazy finally got her rite and top dressed with some FFOF/LW and added about a gal of it below under smart pot.....It helped out. So I would amend soil for sure. And there is alot of perlite in Sunshine organic also so beware.

Matt NICE BUDS she is foxtailing. never had any grow like that for me yet how is it? And that Seems alot of Sub's strains bud on fan leaves thats sweet!


----------



## farmer2424 (Jul 8, 2011)

Hey Matt, just read through the first 40 pages and last 15 of this thread. After doing so, my brain has swelled from all the information, and i have to stop reading at this point to let it all soak in haha. That steep Hill Lab article on the Jack Herer Ice extract was awesome. My mouth is literally watering from all the pics of fine bubble in this thread. Just wanted to thank you for all the great info and techniques, i'm definitely going to grow more veganic if not completely at some point. Much Respect.  farmer


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## Matt Rize (Jul 10, 2011)

My ice water extract is now available at www.southbayCRC.org. in very limited quantities. Sour Diesel, Casey Jones, and OG Kush pictured below.


----------



## SlightlyVaped (Jul 10, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> My ice water extract is now available at www.southbayCRC.org. in very limited quantities. Sour Diesel, Casey Jones, and OG Kush pictured below.


I won't be making it that far south in San Jose for a while, but nice to see your concentrates hitting the South Bay. 

Now if we can only get some quality clones down this way...


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 11, 2011)

SlightlyVaped said:


> I won't be making it that far south in San Jose for a while, but nice to see your concentrates hitting the South Bay.
> 
> Now if we can only get some quality clones down this way...


haha, thanks. they had some nice Raskal OG cuts at SouthbayCRC. Here is some of my Sour Diesel ice wax available there.


----------



## SlightlyVaped (Jul 11, 2011)

Very nice, Sour D always seems to make some nice melt.

How are you preparing the plant for your hash?

I've heard of so many different ways, so just wondering if you are using fresh from the plant trim or are you drying/curing it before running?


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 11, 2011)

SlightlyVaped said:


> Very nice, Sour D always seems to make some nice melt.
> 
> How are you preparing the plant for your hash?
> 
> I've heard of so many different ways, so just wondering if you are using fresh from the plant trim or are you drying/curing it before running?


I do both. The OG is from dry, the Sour is from wet and dry.


----------



## NightbirdX (Jul 11, 2011)

You still using the same method as in your Youtube vid? I'm looking to start making some bubble and want mine to look like that, lol.


----------



## beeznutz (Jul 12, 2011)

hey ya'll..... jus wanna give u guys an update on my deficiency scenario i was dealing a while back....i gave the ladies some extra love with some phosphorus sprinkled on top and they are getting better, the new growth on top does not show any signs of deficiency so i think it'll b allrite 
i did pull some of the leaves that were affected but i'm concerned about pulling all of them, my understanding is that we need the leaves for photosynthesis and they also hold nutrients which the plant feeds off of but at the same time a buddy of mine always says to pull the sick leaves because the plant is using energy to repair them.
what exactly is a safe way of doing it? do i need to worry about pulling too many leaves? or jus say f uk it and get rid of all that looks bad and hope for more to grow?
i'm in almost two weeks of flower, btw.

anotha thing i wanted to point out is that i believe i made a mistake when i've switched [midway vegging] from GO to BioCanna of not supplying the plant micros.
GO macros have micros in them as well but Canna does not- would that be the right assumption??


----------



## PakaloloHui (Jul 12, 2011)

??? 06:13 into the video ???

[video=youtube;gnp4Ywjz-po]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnp4Ywjz-po[/video]


----------



## RPsmoke420 (Jul 12, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> hey ya'll..... jus wanna give u guys an update on my deficiency scenario i was dealing a while back....i gave the ladies some extra love with some phosphorus sprinkled on top and they are getting better, the new growth on top does not show any signs of deficiency so i think it'll b allrite
> i did pull some of the leaves that were affected but i'm concerned about pulling all of them, my understanding is that we need the leaves for photosynthesis and they also hold nutrients which the plant feeds off of but at the same time a buddy of mine always says to pull the sick leaves because the plant is using energy to repair them.
> what exactly is a safe way of doing it? do i need to worry about pulling too many leaves? or jus say f uk it and get rid of all that looks bad and hope for more to grow?
> i'm in almost two weeks of flower, btw.
> ...


Good to hear! General rule of thumb is to remove leaves once they reach the 50% damage mark. 

Your assumption could have something to do with it. It could also be, that while the plant was growing, it was finding enough Phosphorus. As time went on, it's needs changed, and required more. It couldn't find what it needed, so deficiency began to show, as the plant tried to keep up. Being at two weeks into flower, perhaps the plant began needing more as flowering set in. Hard to say. pH can play a role on availablilty, as well as other nutrients. I know some micro-nutrients work as antagonists to each other. Such as too much iron may produce manganese and zinc deficiencies, while high levels of manganese may result in iron and zinc deficiencies. 

I am stoned, and over thinking this though! lol


----------



## NightbirdX (Jul 12, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> hey ya'll..... jus wanna give u guys an update on my deficiency scenario i was dealing a while back....i gave the ladies some extra love with some phosphorus sprinkled on top and they are getting better, the new growth on top does not show any signs of deficiency so i think it'll b allrite
> i did pull some of the leaves that were affected but i'm concerned about pulling all of them, my understanding is that we need the leaves for photosynthesis and they also hold nutrients which the plant feeds off of but at the same time a buddy of mine always says to pull the sick leaves because the plant is using energy to repair them.
> what exactly is a safe way of doing it? do i need to worry about pulling too many leaves? or jus say f uk it and get rid of all that looks bad and hope for more to grow?
> i'm in almost two weeks of flower, btw.
> ...


Like RP said, I take my leaves off once they are 50% damaged. 

As for your micro's, I mix in dolomite lime into the soil to provide more Calcium and Magnesium and help buffer the pH in case there are any "issues." I feel like it gives me a little wiggle room. I will also use a product called Earth Tonic every now and again to add more micros. Earth Tonic is basically sea water. It's ingredients include, "*Gulf Stream ocean water, Himalayan crystal salt, colloidal clay, nettle's tea, and the biodynamic preperations BD500-508."* Sea water will have everything you need when it comes to micros and is beneficial in small amounts. I use 1 ml/gal every few weeks. There are other products out there to get your micros, if you are worried about it, find the one that works for you and follow the directions. EJ makes a good micronutrient supplement from what I hear. I chose Earth Tonic because it's made by crazy hippies who are way out there, but know what they are talking about. 

Here's the intro from their web page: http://www.progressearth.com/index.php/products/detail/4/tonic

"Earth Tonic is a biodynamically enhanced sea mineral concentrate containing literally all Earth-bound elements. This results in over 90 elements for your plants to choose from rather than the 17 elements in most hydroponic nutrients.
Think of *Earth Tonic *as biological minerals, like a tool kit for life. The ingredients include Gulf Stream ocean water, Himalayan crystal salt, colloidal clay, nettle's tea, and the biodynamic preperations BD500-508. The ingredients are prepared and potentized in proprietary ways. The result of this alchemical summit isover 90 naturally occuring elements, humic acids, naturally occuring vitamins, and primary metabolic compounds unique to the properties of the specific plants and herbs contained within.
By providing these tools to plants and the microbes that help them, we are harnessing the full potential of life by increasing the nutrient density of our food and catalyzing the nutrient cycling capabilities of microbes.
The magic of soil is the living microbes. There's another universe down there, up to 500,000 bacteria can fit in the exclamation point at the end of this sentence! Plants use most of them, but microbes use every single element on the periodic table to create the compounds that allow them to do their work and that result in the materials that form plant food. What if you hired someone to build a house and only provided them half of the tools?
For instance, a hydroponic tomato can be grown using only 17 elements, but it ends up with more than 17 elements in its tissue...what are we missing?"


----------



## beeznutz (Jul 12, 2011)

RPsmoke420 said:


> Good to hear! General rule of thumb is to remove leaves once they reach the 50% damage mark.
> 
> Your assumption could have something to do with it. It could also be, that while the plant was growing, it was finding enough Phosphorus. As time went on, it's needs changed, and required more. It couldn't find what it needed, so deficiency began to show, as the plant tried to keep up. Being at two weeks into flower, perhaps the plant began needing more as flowering set in. Hard to say. pH can play a role on availablilty, as well as other nutrients. I know some micro-nutrients work as antagonists to each other. Such as too much iron may produce manganese and zinc deficiencies, while high levels of manganese may result in iron and zinc deficiencies.
> 
> I am stoned, and over thinking this though! lol


cool cool, that's a good rule of thumb and i'll b following it from now on- thx  part of me not wanting to rip everything off was because some of the leaves had spots on them but weren't as bad so I figured not to do it.
I know what ur saying about the mcros acting against, I was actually thinking about that not too long ago, how in some of these bottles you find a small percentage of CA or MG or whT not and let's say ur main nute has a small percentage of MG and maybe something else has a small amount of MG then on top of that u add something like CaMg from GO who has somewhat balanced amount of both but in the end u end up with more MG then needed and that could lock up something else, right? I'm starting to keep an eye for that now and kinda moving towards simpler macro/micro mixes.....


----------



## beeznutz (Jul 12, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Like RP said, I take my leaves off once they are 50% damaged.
> 
> As for your micro's, I mix in dolomite lime into the soil to provide more Calcium and Magnesium and help buffer the pH in case there are any "issues." I feel like it gives me a little wiggle room. I will also use a product called Earth Tonic every now and again to add more micros. Earth Tonic is basically sea water. It's ingredients include, "*Gulf Stream ocean water, Himalayan crystal salt, colloidal clay, nettle's tea, and the biodynamic preperations BD500-508."* Sea water will have everything you need when it comes to micros and is beneficial in small amounts. I use 1 ml/gal every few weeks. There are other products out there to get your micros, if you are worried about it, find the one that works for you and follow the directions. EJ makes a good micronutrient supplement from what I hear. I chose Earth Tonic because it's made by crazy hippies who are way out there, but know what they are talking about.
> 
> ...


hey neighbor!! I'm just a stone throw away in OH  
that tonic stuff looks interesting- have u contacted them at all ? their literature reads intense, too much for my brain, and didn't see anything about being organic although it does says natural..... it's probably kosher though.
maybe Matt could jump in here and state his opinion, it seems to be his lingo...

I'm doing 'hempy buckets' which is a method of hydro and i don't think lime would work but next crop I'll have half of it in soil so I will b able to use it.
back to micros, ur saying only use it now and then not with regular feed schedule?
r u using tap, RO, filtered watered? I'm doing RO so I feel like I should sup the micros more often......


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 13, 2011)

hey yall. been hashin it up. this is some Sour Diesel. exclusively available at www.southbayCRC.org 

I've been testing the plushberry and the pink pheno is the winner for sure. rize up


----------



## NightbirdX (Jul 13, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> hey neighbor!! I'm just a stone throw away in OH
> that tonic stuff looks interesting- have u contacted them at all ? their literature reads intense, too much for my brain, and didn't see anything about being organic although it does says natural..... it's probably kosher though.
> maybe Matt could jump in here and state his opinion, it seems to be his lingo...
> 
> ...


Like I said, they are crazy hippies, but it works, lol.


----------



## R3DROCk9 (Jul 13, 2011)

aye any of yaw kno wut dis might be?? i get it every once in a while....i have a few ideas as to wut it may be, bu at this point i dont want to influence any new opinions that yaw may have....thanx


btw: cocoNot substrate, biocanna nutes, yip, yip ,yay yay, yuuuuuu


----------



## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 13, 2011)

Well i searched out all of Eugene and Springfield Or. looking for Canna. Finally found it at Greener Side of Life . I bought what i needed to get started being i am using fresh clones from mommies that are headed for flowering. The mommies will continue using the Humboldts Naturals line up. The clones will be using the full Canna line up. I purchased Terra Vegga, CANNA RHIZOTONIC and Cannazyme. I will be going back for the rest of the line before i flower. I did not see Canna start ? i wonder if i over looked it?


----------



## SlightlyVaped (Jul 13, 2011)

I just got back from my local grow shop which had a little vendor day and a Canna rep was present.

I asked about BTPlus and short answer is it will be back, although not any time soon (maybe this time next year). The reason it was pulled from the shelves is that the Department of Agriculture was not allowing a few of the ingredients to get imported, so they have had to find a soil maker in North America to create their product.

Obviously a few ingredients are going to be different such as Canadian Peat vs. European peat but the good news for us vegan farmers is they believe they have found a manufacturer to create a plant based nutrient charge vs. the animal by-product nutrient charge.

This is currently being tested in the labs at their main headquarters and with the time frame being so far off things can definitely change but that's the latest from the Canna rep's mouth.


----------



## SlightlyVaped (Jul 13, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Well i searched out all of Eugene and Springfield Or. looking for Canna. Finally found it at Greener Side of Life . I bought what i needed to get started being i am using fresh clones from mommies that are headed for flowering. The mommies will continue using the Humboldts Naturals line up. The clones will be using the full Canna line up. I purchased Terra Vegga, CANNA RHIZOTONIC and Cannazyme. I will be going back for the rest of the line before i flower. I did not see Canna start ? i wonder if i over looked it?


Not sure if you were looking to go the veganic route, but those nutrients are not organic let alone veganic. For veganic gardening you want the Bio Vega and I'd swap out the Cannazyme for Hygrozyme to be certified organic.


----------



## R3DROCk9 (Jul 13, 2011)

aye matt...check upon yuh hate thread...jus hit it up today....got the followers following once again...zeen

:^)


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## Matt Rize (Jul 13, 2011)

more hashin' going to www.southbayCRC.org


----------



## upthearsenal (Jul 13, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Well i searched out all of Eugene and Springfield Or. looking for Canna. Finally found it at Greener Side of Life . I bought what i needed to get started being i am using fresh clones from mommies that are headed for flowering. The mommies will continue using the Humboldts Naturals line up. The clones will be using the full Canna line up. I purchased Terra Vegga, CANNA RHIZOTONIC and Cannazyme. I will be going back for the rest of the line before i flower. I did not see Canna start ? i wonder if i over looked it?


This is the stuff is the stuff you wanna get: http://www.bghydro.com/search/?q=biocanna&ie=&site=BGH_store&output=xml_no_dtd&client=BGH_store&lr=&proxystylesheet=BGH_store&oe=UTF-8&getfields=productimage.productname.description&filter=0


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## RPsmoke420 (Jul 14, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Well i searched out all of Eugene and Springfield Or. looking for Canna. Finally found it at Greener Side of Life . I bought what i needed to get started being i am using fresh clones from mommies that are headed for flowering. The mommies will continue using the Humboldts Naturals line up. The clones will be using the full Canna line up. I purchased Terra Vegga, CANNA RHIZOTONIC and Cannazyme. I will be going back for the rest of the line before i flower. I did not see Canna start ? i wonder if i over looked it?


Might of grabbed the wrong Canna product. They make so many, it's easy to do. Generally looking for Bio-Canna, but some people are starting to get away from bottle nutes all together. 

Canna start is a new product I believe, I just saw it recently. I do not use it.

What's your goal? Vegan Organic? Organic? Simply want something 'clean'. Wanting to stick with bottle nutes? 

Here is an old, dated list from Matt, but might help point ya in the right direction:



> biovega/flores and bioboost - pretty much by the chart
> hygrozyme - replaces cannazym and you use way less. plus its organic cannazym is not (using up the last of my Cannazyme along with hygrozyme)
> HN roots excel - meh, whatever right, they are kinda all the same.
> natures nectar N - soy, the only vegan N product I know of, used as needed.
> ...


Again, much of this has changed, but I had this list saved, so it was easy.


----------



## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 14, 2011)

Good list. i have been using hygrozime, love the stuff. but adding 3 more ml of cannazym to give the line up a fair run is what it is. I grabbed the bio vega so im good there lol. My aim is to stay organic and walk away from poo. Canna is " Natural and Organic" . Canna being derived from plant matter makes it vegan. My hopes are a cleaner herb, if achievable? My organics burn clean, and wonderful flavors/extended highs. A goal in switching to plant based instead of poo is flavor and smell. My ladies are wonderful, but i believe you can always try to come up one.
Going to make 2 runs of 8, 7 strains. That would be a fair trial in my garden. 


RPsmoke420 said:


> Might of grabbed the wrong Canna product. They make so many, it's easy to do. Generally looking for Bio-Canna, but some people are starting to get away from bottle nutes all together.
> 
> Canna start is a new product I believe, I just saw it recently. I do not use it.
> 
> ...


----------



## NightbirdX (Jul 14, 2011)

Canna Start is a new product and hasn't hit the majority of the market yet, trying to get my grow store to get it.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 15, 2011)

yo, check out this video of me making hash oil:
[video=youtube;gzUd8KICcrk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzUd8KICcrk[/video]
haha...
rize up


----------



## hazorazo (Jul 15, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> yo, check out this video of me making hash oil:
> [video=youtube;gzUd8KICcrk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzUd8KICcrk[/video]
> haha...
> rize up


Holy shit! This had me laughing and cringing at the same time. Holy shit.


----------



## farmer2424 (Jul 15, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> yo, check out this video of me making hash oil:
> [video=youtube;gzUd8KICcrk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzUd8KICcrk[/video]
> haha...
> rize up


 HAHAHa so thats how you do it professor. niggas don't know about this shit dawg hahah


----------



## R3DROCk9 (Jul 15, 2011)

*I HATE THINGS THAT TASTE LIKE CRAZY RAINBOW PIG*:
[video=youtube;eah23WvLYsQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eah23WvLYsQ[/video]


----------



## R3DROCk9 (Jul 15, 2011)

oops..wrong thread


----------



## hazorazo (Jul 16, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> more hashin' going to www.southbayCRC.org


Hey Matt! I was wondering, when you make your ice water extract, how do YOU go about drying yours......do you chop it up or put it through a strainer? You have that grainy look, like crystally brown sugar. I usually chop mine, but I may just be an ignorant newbie? If I missed a thread you have on this, my bad, but I did not see one in your started threads? Thanks a ton for the help.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 16, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> oops..wrong thread


fitting for the vegan organic thread i think, lmao. "I OWN THIS SUPERMARKET." "SPICY... IF YOU'RE A LITTLE BITCH"


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 16, 2011)

hazorazo said:


> Hey Matt! I was wondering, when you make your ice water extract, how do YOU go about drying yours......do you chop it up or put it through a strainer? You have that grainy look, like crystally brown sugar. I usually chop mine, but I may just be an ignorant newbie? If I missed a thread you have on this, my bad, but I did not see one in your started threads? Thanks a ton for the help.


Wild horses couldn't drag that one out. Sorry. I've been sanctioned by Reverend Selecta Nikka T to combine my methods with some of his, and I am now forced to keep that stage confidential. I do have a huge hash thread here somewhere, explaining the whole process as I did it last year. I'm pretty sure. Let me find that link

ps, found it.

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/367111-bubble-hash-tips-good-times-22.html


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## SaulSpliff (Jul 16, 2011)

around a week ago i recieved an clone of an unknow strain from a friend. he said it might be silver haze, but isn't positive. she was on her 3rd set of leaves. she had bugs, damaged leaves(holes, tears, yellowed, dried pieces). i found out that the bugs were thrips, and treated them with organic neem oil. they seem to no longer be a problem and along with 2 small aplications of compost teas from a friend, and watering, she seems to be doing better. she is now on her 4th set of leaves. the top leaves are a bit droopy and still damaged, the new leaves on the bottom look fresh and healthy. she is starting to flower very small pystls( i needed a magnifying glass just to notice them, but now i see them on all the nodes). this is an outdoor grow, on a balcony in southern california. she is still in the pot i got her in and has not yet rooted it. not sure of the soil type, i just know it's organic. i do no know PH. i water her once a day, usually around 5 PM.
I'm looking for some organic and vegan help, feedback or advice. this is my first grow.
does she look ok? what am i doing right or wrong? what else should i do to aid the grow?
thankyou!!
photos taken today


----------



## hazorazo (Jul 16, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Wild horses couldn't drag that one out. Sorry. I've been sanctioned by Reverend Selecta Nikka T to combine my methods with some of his, and I am now forced to keep that stage confidential. I do have a huge hash thread here somewhere, explaining the whole process as I did it last year. I'm pretty sure. Let me find that link
> 
> ps, found it.
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/organics/367111-bubble-hash-tips-good-times-22.html


Thanks, Matt. Just admiring the quality of the hash you keep making....haha. I looked at your started threads, but this one must have been way back there, sorry to have wasted your time, man. I will check out the link.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jul 16, 2011)

SaulSpliff said:


> around a week ago i recieved an clone of an unknow strain from a friend. he said it might be silver haze, but isn't positive. she was on her 3rd set of leaves. she had bugs, damaged leaves(holes, tears, yellowed, dried pieces). i found out that the bugs were thrips, and treated them with organic neem oil. they seem to no longer be a problem and along with 2 small aplications of compost teas from a friend, and watering, she seems to be doing better. she is now on her 4th set of leaves. the top leaves are a bit droopy and still damaged, the new leaves on the bottom look fresh and healthy. she is starting to flower very small pystls( i needed a magnifying glass just to notice them, but now i see them on all the nodes). this is an outdoor grow, on a balcony in southern california. she is still in the pot i got her in and has not yet rooted it. not sure of the soil type, i just know it's organic. i do no know PH. i water her once a day, usually around 5 PM.
> I'm looking for some organic and vegan help, feedback or advice. this is my first grow.
> does she look ok? what am i doing right or wrong? what else should i do to aid the grow?
> thankyou!!
> ...


----------



## SaulSpliff (Jul 16, 2011)

alright, thank you so much! i'm going to start a new grow i think, either clone or seeds.. and i might start dabbling with indoor as well. I'm a bit stubborn and might just keep it to see if there's a way, just out of curiosity. should i cut that top that's all messed up? or? thankyou again! good luck with your probably AMAZING grows!


----------



## Wolverine97 (Jul 16, 2011)

SaulSpliff said:


> around a week ago i recieved an clone of an unknow strain from a friend. he said it might be silver haze, but isn't positive. she was on her 3rd set of leaves. she had bugs, damaged leaves(holes, tears, yellowed, dried pieces). i found out that the bugs were thrips, and treated them with organic neem oil. they seem to no longer be a problem and along with 2 small aplications of compost teas from a friend, and watering, she seems to be doing better. she is now on her 4th set of leaves. the top leaves are a bit droopy and still damaged, the new leaves on the bottom look fresh and healthy. she is starting to flower very small pystls( i needed a magnifying glass just to notice them, but now i see them on all the nodes). this is an outdoor grow, on a balcony in southern california. she is still in the pot i got her in and has not yet rooted it. not sure of the soil type, i just know it's organic. i do no know PH. i water her once a day, usually around 5 PM.
> I'm looking for some organic and vegan help, feedback or advice. this is my first grow.
> does she look ok? what am i doing right or wrong? what else should i do to aid the grow?
> thankyou!!


 Directions for newb
Phase one: buy Bio Canna (or General Organic) nutrient line
Phase two: ???
Phase three: profit


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## SaulSpliff (Jul 16, 2011)

can you elaborate a bit? what do you mean by phase two? thanks!


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## Wolverine97 (Jul 16, 2011)

Hey guys, what's phase two???


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## SlightlyVaped (Jul 16, 2011)

^^^ I dunno it's your list.

If your main goal is profit I would find another method, there are certainly much cheaper methods out there. However, if your main goal is clean high quality medication I would give this method a try as it is certainly capable of doing just that.

SaulSpliff - If you are planning on starting a new grow I would get rid of that plant asap as you do not want any pests/diseases to make their way to your new plants (indoor or out).


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## NightbirdX (Jul 19, 2011)

Is phase 2 bud pr0n? 

Veganic Blue Cheese. In flush right now, coming down this weekend. 
View attachment 1696765

Veganic Grand Daddy Purps. I love this plant. 
View attachment 1696766View attachment 1696767

Veganic RP Sour Kush, week 9. 2 weeks til chop:
View attachment 1696768


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## beeznutz (Jul 19, 2011)

can u believe this shite?

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/09/local/la-me-marijuana-20110709


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## Matt Rize (Jul 19, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> can u believe this shite?
> 
> http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/09/local/la-me-marijuana-20110709


 yeah, that's obviously a crock of shite. thats why we all just gotta keep overgrowing.

On the plush side of things. Check out my veganic Plushberry ice water extracted wax.


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## PakaloloHui (Jul 19, 2011)

I said it once and I'll say it again. We should start calling "Ice water extracted wax" ..... "CAVIAR"

Looks good Matt


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## Matt Rize (Jul 20, 2011)

plushberry ice wax


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## Matt Rize (Jul 20, 2011)

I'm raising funds and awareness for www.uf4a.org using my vegan organic ice water extract. $5 from each gram of hash from my garden will be donated to the Unconventional Foundation for Autism. Available only at www.southbayCRC.org

[video=youtube;DC8li-atTBw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC8li-atTBw[/video]

Vegan Organic Vortex






rize up!


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## sharpshoota (Jul 24, 2011)

hey matt can u go into some detail on your flushing/drying/curing techniques.. I read you arguing or silencing somebody else about flushing on another thread, you also mentioned not "burping" jars... 
Just curious how and why the professor does what he does when it comes to flushing/harvesting/drying/curing


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## Matt Rize (Jul 24, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> hey matt can u go into some detail on your flushing/drying/curing techniques.. I read you arguing or silencing somebody else about flushing on another thread, you also mentioned not "burping" jars...
> Just curious how and why the professor does what he does when it comes to flushing/harvesting/drying/curing


I wet trim, dry on stem hanging. jar still slightly soft and let slowly finish drying in open jars. then when dry enough I seal the jars. this becomes an anaerobic cure after a few weeks.

flushing is a chem technique. I just add plain water for the last 2ish weeks. I don't run massive amounts of water through the media.


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## Matt Rize (Jul 28, 2011)

Veganics and UF4A mentioned in this article.
medical-cannabis-for-autism-the-story-of-mieko-and-joey-perez/


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## Bird Gymnastics (Aug 1, 2011)

I've noticed that Canna and General Organics both have the Vganic approved label on the bottles. What is your opinion on General Organics? Never really seen them around too much. I am a ALL organic grower but am super interested in this Veganic line.


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## Matt Rize (Aug 1, 2011)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> I've noticed that Canna and General Organics both have the Vganic approved label on the bottles. What is your opinion on General Organics? Never really seen them around too much. I am a ALL organic grower but am super interested in this Veganic line.


"VGANIC" is a branding thing for General Organics, and their line is pretty good. I use their CalMag+
Biocanna (made by Canna) claims vegan organic as well, and is in my opinion better than the GO but barely worth the double cost.


----------



## PakaloloHui (Aug 2, 2011)

Here is a link to a killer time lapse video.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=529_1312062599


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## Matt Rize (Aug 11, 2011)

took a couple weeks off, my caretaker did a decent job. he did put the veg tent on 12/12 for a couple days before telling me... yikes. but im back home and making more ice wax. just dropped this mendo lav ice wax at southbayCRC.


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## cannawizard (Aug 11, 2011)

* thats just dreamy right there.. haha.. MmmM


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## Matt Rize (Aug 12, 2011)

Vegan Organic Chernobyl ice wax (ice water extract)











... rize up


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## beeznutz (Aug 16, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I wet trim, dry on stem hanging. jar still slightly soft and let slowly finish drying in open jars. then when dry enough I seal the jars. this becomes an anaerobic cure after a few weeks.


hey matt......jus wondering about ur technique- when u think buds are dry enough to take off the stem and jar do you seal the jar for any amount of time or jus put them in and keep it opened till you think they're dry enough to seal??

thx.....getting ready for harvest


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## Matt Rize (Aug 16, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> hey matt......jus wondering about ur technique- when u think buds are dry enough to take off the stem and jar do you seal the jar for any amount of time or jus put them in and keep it opened till you think they're dry enough to seal??
> 
> thx.....getting ready for harvest


buds are dry enough to take off the stems when they snap off after three or less attempts (an attempt is a gentle bending of the bud at the stem to see if it breaks). I know i can seal by smoking the bud as a test. if I see white ash its good to seal.

I'm doing another donation to www.uf4a.org with this veganic Chernobyl ice wax from my garden. Available only at www.southbayCRC.org. I dropped right before they closed so first thing tomorrow they will have a killer selection 
Chernobyl... thanks TGA!











rize up


----------



## beeznutz (Aug 17, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> buds are dry enough to take off the stems when they snap off after three or less attempts (an attempt is a gentle bending of the bud at the stem to see if it breaks). I know i can seal by smoking the bud as a test. if I see white ash its good to seal.


thx mahn.....
all these ice wax pix make me wanna try doing it myself. i might look into getting the necesary tools for the job 
that bubble machine is a must, right?


----------



## Bird Gymnastics (Aug 17, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> "VGANIC" is a branding thing for General Organics, and their line is pretty good. I use their CalMag+
> Biocanna (made by Canna) claims vegan organic as well, and is in my opinion better than the GO but barely worth the double cost.


Thanks for the advice man. I wasn't sold on seeing just a label so I said screw it and went with quality. So do younuse the whole lime of Canna nutrients? Also why can't I find bioncanna anywhere? If you already answered these questions in an earlier post then I apologize for being repetitive.


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## R3DROCk9 (Aug 17, 2011)

matt..wut bout jus pressing dry sift together? like from a tumbler, after you get the keif (pollen)...

wouldn't that make a lesser processed, stronger end product??...i imagine that SUM oils still get washed away in the water bath agitation machine.


----------



## Matt Rize (Aug 17, 2011)

beeznutz said:


> thx mahn.....
> all these ice wax pix make me wanna try doing it myself. i might look into getting the necesary tools for the job
> that bubble machine is a must, right?


yeah imvho (haha), but not that brand, they are all similar. check my hash thread here if you have not yet. its in the organic forum (lol at that one too)


----------



## baldhead (Aug 18, 2011)

Phase Two: feed plants


----------



## beeznutz (Aug 18, 2011)

i know most of ya'll getting cuttings from ur area but anybody knows where to get quality seeds? does anybody even have organic ones?
time to change the flava


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## Matt Rize (Aug 19, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> matt..wut bout jus pressing dry sift together? like from a tumbler, after you get the keif (pollen)...
> 
> wouldn't that make a lesser processed, stronger end product??...i imagine that SUM oils still get washed away in the water bath agitation machine.


if you are making kif, take the time to resift the powder after separation and collection. this simple step will increase the quality and doesnt take too long. i would not press anything ever, unless you are smuggling. 

most of the oils you refer to are inside the trichome heads, and not washed away during the ice water hash process. my ice wax smells amazing. ice water hash generally tests higher than kif for THC potency, but pure kif is attainable and as good or better than ice water when made correctly.


----------



## TheOrganic (Aug 20, 2011)

That makes sense cause Ive yet to find any concentrate better than my triple screen grinder....its pure butter looking kif when done but I need better smoking tools for it.....Instead of loading a half bowl of bud and topping off with kif.


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## Matt Rize (Aug 20, 2011)

TheOrganic said:


> That makes sense cause Ive yet to find any concentrate better than my triple screen grinder....its pure butter looking kif when done but I need better smoking tools for it.....Instead of loading a half bowl of bud and topping off with kif.


 I use Titanium plate/bell combo for melty concentrates. I don't like the Ti "nails" because they are hard to wipe clean.

my buddy sam skunkman believes that the best dry screen is the ultimate smoke. the idea is that the water environment removes the terpenes on the outside of the trichomes. resifted dry screen, using sonic vibrations, at cooled temps, is where the natural extracts are headed. you can quote me on that last part.


----------



## Wolverine97 (Aug 20, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I use Titanium plate/bell combo for melty concentrates. I don't like the Ti "nails" because they are hard to wipe clean.
> 
> my buddy sam skunkman believes that the best dry screen is the ultimate smoke. the idea is that the water environment removes the terpenes on the outside of the trichomes. resifted dry screen, using sonic vibrations, at cooled temps, is where the natural extracts are headed. you can quote me on that last part.


Swy me no make water hash... Kief, or bho, but kief mostly.


----------



## Matt Rize (Aug 21, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Swy me no make water hash... Kief, or bho, but kief mostly.


pretty simple concepts although i am yet to try. make kif new school way. in a cold room, using sonic vibes (ill dig up the device i've seen) to do the agitation hands-free. resifting for higher quality. using multiple screens just like making ice water hash, to separate the microns. ill dig that up after i pull these bags and dry this wata wax.


----------



## arokace (Aug 21, 2011)

Hi, my friend and I were gonna give this a try for our next grow. And I was wondering if there is cheaper soil that is still suitable to use that is not as expensive as TerraPlus?


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## Matt Rize (Aug 21, 2011)

arokace said:


> Hi, my friend and I were gonna give this a try for our next grow. And I was wondering if there is cheaper soil that is still suitable to use that is not as expensive as TerraPlus?


Yeah, any organic potting mix is good. You will have to adjust pH (depending on your water, I have to). I'm reusing my old potting soil, and amending it with some fresh potting soil, compost, earthworm castings, vegan meal, neem cake, dolomite lime, biochar, grade 4 perlite, and inoculant.


----------



## Wetdog (Aug 21, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Yeah, any organic potting mix is good. You will have to adjust pH (depending on your water, I have to). I'm reusing my old potting soil, and amending it with some fresh potting soil, compost, earthworm castings, vegan meal, neem cake, dolomite lime, biochar, grade 4 perlite, and inoculant.


Thank you Matt!!!! For the EWC.

I was very recently told, in this forum, not this thread, that I didn't know what I was talking about and needed to do more 'research' when I made a comment about EWC. Rather, the lack of EWC in this guys vegan dogma.

Typical noob that has all the answers without ever actually growing anything.

Wet


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## Matt Rize (Aug 21, 2011)

Wetdog said:


> Thank you Matt!!!! For the EWC.
> 
> I was very recently told, in this forum, not this thread, that I didn't know what I was talking about and needed to do more 'research' when I made a comment about EWC. Rather, the lack of EWC in this guys vegan dogma.
> 
> ...


vegan organic simply means stock-free, the vegan organic network established that long ago. vegan is not to be taken strictly. red wigglers ftw! thanks for holding it down Wetdog. seems like everyone (me especially) can turn into a jerk real quick online. we need a sarcastic text button.


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## Matt Rize (Aug 21, 2011)

NEW GROW!!!!

Chernobyl and Vortex are flowering, looking pretty good. Plushberry is bushing out as moms. Harlequin in growing pretty slow. It's time for something new. 

I'm starting some indica seeds. 10 Flav from our organic section superhero Subcool TGA. And 15 Sugar Plum Kush (Blackberry Kush x Bubbleberry). This one came from the farmers market where I teach. Story is that she (farmer) yoinked them from her boyfriend in a nasty breakup. This was his only pack and for future breeding purposes. So that mean his loss is going to be my head smoke. We'll see if anything is worth keeping. If you have not noticed, I prefer to smoke sativa ice water hash and grow colorful frosty indicas.


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## farmer2424 (Aug 22, 2011)

Damn matt, that sugar plum kush should be interesting, hopefully u find a keeper. Can't wait to see what you find in that pack of the flav.


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## Rayne (Aug 27, 2011)

Vegan Organics (aka: Stock Free) the basic principles


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## Matt Rize (Aug 29, 2011)

Nice find Rayne.

Some GDP ice wax, dried two ways. On the left if my style. On the right is my attempt to make "solventless wax" like Selecta Nikka T
yall know what ive been up to, lol.
about to pull down some chernobyl and vortex... for di hashing. 
Sugar Plum Kush all sprouted, babies. 
Kosher Kush is rooting, hope that goes through.
Harlequin mom is chilling. Plushberry moms (pink, and purp phenos) are chilling.
The kosher is typical OG. Lopsided, scraggly, should be bomb


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## Shaggy873 (Aug 30, 2011)

hey im really new so this is probably going to sound stupid but are you saying that you can grow without lights and all the complicated bullshit?


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## Wolverine97 (Aug 30, 2011)

Shaggy873 said:


> hey im really new so this is probably going to sound stupid but are you saying that you can grow without lights and all the complicated bullshit?


What? No. What would make you think that?


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## Matt Rize (Aug 30, 2011)

Shaggy873 said:


> hey im really new so this is probably going to sound stupid but are you saying that you can grow without lights and all the complicated bullshit?


I'm saying you can grow without chemicals and poop.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 2, 2011)

"not without a warrant man..." YES!
[video=youtube;x7Kw9-vTJYs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7Kw9-vTJYs&sns[/video]

okay, maybe this is fake. but how funny.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 2, 2011)

congrats to all the new mods. i've been blessed over in the outdoor section with mod access so holler at your boy if you need help over there. rize up!

who's going to INTCHE this weekend?


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## wheezer (Sep 3, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> congrats to all the new mods. i've been blessed over in the outdoor section with mod access so holler at you boy if you need help over there. rize up!
> 
> who's going to INTCHE this weekend?


 I must be too busy, or stuck in my cave too much.....what is this intche?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 3, 2011)

wheezer said:


> I must be too busy, or stuck in my cave too much.....what is this intche?


 International Hemp Convention in Oakland.


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## cannawizard (Sep 4, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> congrats to all the new mods. i've been blessed over in the outdoor section with mod access so holler at you boy if you need help over there. rize up!
> 
> who's going to INTCHE this weekend?


* most def Sir, ..Rize Up!!!


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## KocfOwned (Sep 5, 2011)

Hey matt I've been reading up on what you and kyle have been doing as far as promoting clean medicine..And i totally adopted Vganics ..I was using Bio bizz which im sure was already Vegan but decided to move towards a different Line because their new shipment didn't contain the Certified Organic label any more...So after some diggen around i found General organics bought their entire in the form of a starter box for $30 they claim to be 100% Organic and Vegan..


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 5, 2011)

KocfOwned said:


> Hey matt I've been reading up on what you and kyle have been doing as far as promoting clean medicine..And i totally adopted Vganics ..I was using Bio bizz which im sure was already Vegan but decided to move towards a different Line because their new shipment didn't contain the Certified Organic label any more...So after some diggen around i found General organics bought their entire in the form of a starter box for $30 they claim to be 100% Organic and Vegan..


GO is what I use, but it's not certified organic either. That doesn't matter though. People should be less concerned with OMRI or other certifications and just make sure the source is natural, as that's all that really matters. If you're walking by a river and find a piece of iron ore, is that organic? No it is not, but if a bear eats that iron ore and shits it out it has become "organic" even though it's the exact same piece of iron.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 5, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> GO is what I use, but it's not certified organic either. That doesn't matter though. People should be less concerned with OMRI or other certifications and just make sure the source is natural, as that's all that really matters. If you're walking by a river and find a piece of iron ore, is that organic? No it is not, but if a bear eats that iron ore and shits it out it has become "organic" even though it's the exact same piece of iron.


Agreed and agreed. At one point BioBizz and GO were the same thing. I prefer GO over BioBizz because it's local and not shipped over seas. I use their CalMag. But I replaced their seaweed with technaflora dry seaweed. I replaced their humic with humic and fulvic from www.BioAg.com. I use the Biocanna veg/flower/bioboost instead of the GO veg/flower/boost.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 5, 2011)

beginners-guide-to-veganic-gardening/



> Vegan-organic gardening avoids not only the use of toxic sprays and chemicals, but also manures and animal remains. Just as vegans avoid animal products in the rest of our lives, we also avoid using animal products in the garden, as fertilizers such as blood and bone meal, slaughterhouse sludge, fish emulsion, and manures are sourced from industries that exploit and enslave sentient beings. As these products may carry dangerous diseases that breed in intensive animal production operations, vegan-organic gardening is also a safer, healthier way to grow our food.
> 
> In veganic growing situations, soil fertility is maintained using vegetable compost, green manures, crop rotation, mulching, and other sustainable, ecological methods. Occasional use of lime, gypsum, rock phosphorus, dolomite, rock dusts and rock potash can be helpful, but we try not to depend on these fertilizers as they are non-renewable resources.
> 
> ...


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## Matt Rize (Sep 5, 2011)

http://www.goveganic.org/spip.php?article206

Different ways to garden veganically
Table of contents 
Container gardening
Ruth Stout technique - (...)
Biointensive
Lasagna gardening / Sheet (...)
Forest gardening
Permaculture
Self-fertilizing gardens
Japanese natural agriculture
Square foot gardening
"Standard" gardening
There is no single way to "do" veganic gardening. It is not a specific technique, but rather a set of ideals and guidelines that shape the way we garden. Veganic means that a gardening system is plant-based (free from animal products and chemical fertilizers). Beyond that, veganic also means that the gardening techniques are respectful of free-living animals, encourage natural biodiversity, and aim for ecological sustainability.

There are many different ways that these ideals can be applied in your backyard, or even on rooftops and balconies. This article presents some of the key approaches that work well for a home-scale veganic garden: container gardening, Ruth Stout technique, biointensive, lasagna gardening / sheet composting, forest gardening, permaculture, self-fertilizing gardens, Japanese natural agriculture, square foot gardening, as well as "standard" gardening as we typically know it. Many of these techniques aren&#8217;t inherently veganic, though they can easily be applied in a veganic way. Perhaps one approach will best suit your bioregion, personal situation or available resources, or perhaps you can combine more than one approach to meet your needs.

To learn more general tips about preparing the ground for planting, and the difference between till, no-till, and raised beds, click here.

Container gardening
Container gardening offers a versatile option for people living in city environments, and can be done veganically by using vegetable compost. Container gardens can be grown on balconies, rooftops, patios, concrete surfaces, contaminated lots, staircases, and suspended from fences, railings and ceilings. Fruit-bearing plants, like tomatoes, cucumbers and eggplant, do especially well in container gardens with ample sunlight. Learn about making your own self-watering container garden from re-used food-grade buckets and styrofoam coolers, as well as tips for a successful season of container gardening.


Ruth Stout technique - Permanent mulch
Ruth Stout was a self-proclaimed &#8220;lazy gardener,&#8221; and she gardened well into her 90&#8217;s. She developed a gardening system that is based exclusively on mulching with a thick layer of vegetable matter (at least 8 inches thick). The soil is never tilled or dug, so the soil ecosystem is undisturbed. As the mulch decomposes over the course of the season, it feeds the soil food web and keeps the soil fertile. The mulch conserves moisture and really cuts down on weeds, so with the exception of perennial weeding there is very little maintenance needed. At the Veganic Agriculture Network, this is the technique we choose for our garden in the countryside, mulching twice a year with hay as the only source of fertility.


Biointensive
Gardener and researcher John Jeavons asked the question, &#8220;What is the optimum way to grow enough food for one person on the smallest amount of land possible in a way that is self-fertile and ecologically sustainable in the long term?&#8221; After decades of research and testing, he developed the biointensive approach. Biointensive is essentially veganic by default, as raising animals takes up too much space and resources. The garden soil is loosened with double-digging, so root systems can go deeper instead of competing for space near the surface. Plants are grown densely, and plants are chosen that will meet our year-round nutritional needs. Learn more about the biointensive approach from the non-profit organization Ecology Action (growbiointensive.org), from their free online self-teaching handbooks and videos, and from Jeavon&#8217;s instructive gardening books, including How to Grow More Vegetables than you Ever Thought Possible on Less Land than you Can Imagine.


Lasagna gardening / Sheet composting
In lasagna gardening, also know as sheet composting, layers of organic matter are piled on the surface of the ground. The soil isn&#8217;t dug or tilled, so it&#8217;s an especially good method to keep the soil in good health and avoid physical strain for the gardener. Several layers of cardboard are placed directly on the lawn. Layers of organic matter are added on top, alternating between layers of "browns" (leaves, small twigs, newspaper, cardboard), and layers of "greens" (fruit and veggie scraps, grass clippings, weeds that haven&#8217;t gone to seed). Initially stacked two feet high, the materials decompose in place, shrinking down and creating a fertile medium for gardening. If you have enough organic matter available, this is even an option for gardening on concrete surfaces. Learn more here.


Forest gardening
Forest gardening, also known as food forests and three dimensional gardening, takes an ecosystem approach to gardening. It makes ample use of vertical space by growing multiple layers of plants in the same area: a canopy of fruit or nut trees can have understories of edible shrubs, herbs, vegetables, berries, roots and fungi, and as well as supporting fertility plants. Requiring an initial investment of time and energy, forest gardening is a long term, sustainable and low maintenance system that is well suited to those who have access to an area of land over a long period of time. Learn more here.


Click to zoom
Permaculture
Permaculture is based on sustainability, and designing gardens, farms and settlements to meet the needs of the earth and humans in the long term. In permaculture, we imitate natural ecosystems by carefully observing the world around us and applying ecological principles to our garden designs. Neither permaculture nor veganic is a specific &#8220;technique&#8221;: both are based on ethics and principles, and veganic permaculture involves the merging of these two sets of ethics. Permaculture principles help us design veganic gardens from a deep ecological perspective. Learn more about veganic permaculture here.


Self-fertilizing gardens
Les jardins auto-fertiles (self-fertilizing gardens) is an approach to gardening based on permaculture principles. It was developed by Emilia Hazelip from France, and further developed by Rejean Roy of Quebec. It involves permanent raised-beds, permanent ground cover, surface composting, a diversity of plants in each bed, the presence of living roots at all times (i.e. perennial plants or successive crops), and using the vertical plane with climbing plants. Biomass from leaves and stalks are left directly on the surface to decompose, and roots are left to decompose naturally underground. The three principle elements of self-fertilizing gardens are raised beds, water points, and trees, and the interconnection between these elements is highly valued. The aim is to create a dynamic ecosystem that self-fertilizes.


Japanese natural agriculture
Japanese natural agriculture was developed in Japan independently from North America&#8217;s organic agriculture movement, and most practioners use entirely plant-based techniques. Spiritual leader Mokichi Okada came up with a "no-fertilizer" technique in the 1930&#8217;s, which he later named nature farming. It differs from typical organic agriculture in two main ways: the crops are not rotated, and it is considered part of a spiritual pursuit for beauty and peace (see Shumei). A separate branch of Japanese natural farming was developed by farmer and philosopher Masanobu Fukuoka, author of The One Straw Revolution, He was a proponent of no-till methods for growing grains and vegetables. With resemblances to permaculture philosophy, he encouraged careful observation of local ecosystems and collaborating with natural cycles. Learn more here and here.


Square foot gardening
Square-foot gardening involves an open-bottomed box, divided into a grid, that is filled with a mix of light soil and compost. Each section in the grid is one square foot. Each square foot contains the optimum number of plants, depending on the space that the plant takes up (i.e. one brocolli, or four lettuces, or sixteen carrots) and companion plants are often planted in the same square. Once planted, there is less weeding and watering than with typical gardens. This technique is especially well suited to people who prefer linear methodology and a scientific approach to gardening. It&#8217;s also well adapted to urban settings and areas with contaminated soils, since the dirt is bought in. Square foot gardening is also an option for people with reduced mobility, as it can be built on a tabletop. Learn more here and here.


"Standard" gardening
You know what we&#8217;re talking about... the typical home garden where the soil is dug up and plants are grown in rows. Most books and websites about gardening will describe this technique. This is a perfectly fine way to grow a veganic garden: just make sure that your fertilizers and amendments are from plant or mineral sources, like compost, alfalfa meal and seaweed (learn more here). We hope, though, that this article has piqued your interest about the lesser-known approaches that can be taken to home gardening.


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## Rayne (Sep 6, 2011)

Although I disagree with the thickness of mulch she used. I like the Roth Stout "method" I don't have to water as much as I used to. Plus the soil microbes compost the fruit and vegetable scraps I put under the mulch.


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## KocfOwned (Sep 6, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> GO is what I use, but it's not certified organic either. That doesn't matter though. People should be less concerned with OMRI or other certifications and just make sure the source is natural, as that's all that really matters. If you're walking by a river and find a piece of iron ore, is that organic? No it is not, but if a bear eats that iron ore and shits it out it has become "organic" even though it's the exact same piece of iron.



Hmmm i know they mentioned it on their webpage about being 100% organic but i could be mistaken ....I agree to about making sure its a natural source ...and isn't anything containing a carbon Molecule organic?????


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## KocfOwned (Sep 6, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Agreed and agreed. At one point BioBizz and GO were the same thing. I prefer GO over BioBizz because it's local and not shipped over seas. I use their CalMag. But I replaced their seaweed with technaflora dry seaweed. I replaced their humic with humic and fulvic from www.BioAg.com. I use the Biocanna veg/flower/bioboost instead of the GO veg/flower/boost.


 yea i was going to go with biocanna but it was to expensive for me ATM...also i went to bioag's webpage and saw the Ful-Power but its description only seemed to talk about it containing Humic acid..does it also contain Fulvic acid?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 6, 2011)

KocfOwned said:


> yea i was going to go with biocanna but it was to expensive for me ATM...also i went to bioag's webpage and saw the Ful-Power but its description only seemed to talk about it containing Humic acid..does it also contain Fulvic acid?


yes, it is almost pure fulvic but due to labeling laws its called humic in CA and OR.


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## IVIars (Sep 7, 2011)

I was using the GO line, but i didnt like the fact i had to add 90ml per feeding (1 3/4 gal 1000ppm). I was wondering what the application rates were with the Biocanna line to achieve around the same ppm?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2011)

IVIars said:


> I was using the GO line, but i didnt like the fact i had to add 90ml per feeding (1 3/4 gal 1000ppm). I was wondering what the application rates were with the Biocanna line to achieve around the same ppm?


yeah, that's about normal for vegan organic nutes. I'm up around 1000 as well for full feedings. 
Application rates for Biocanna are between 5 and 15mL/gallon for the base and boost.


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## Afka (Sep 7, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> At the Veganic Agriculture Network, this is the technique we choose for our garden in the countryside, mulching twice a year with hay as the only source of fertility.


The problem I see with adding only carbon rich straw is that you'll eschew the soil C:N balance, all the N being cycled into decomposing the carbon and being immediately consumed upon mineralization to further the composting process. Eventually, the plants will be deprived of adequate Nitrogen. If you're bringing in outside material to a closed cycle, you're debalancing it. You need to bring in further sources of N to retain your balance.

If you bring in C, you have to bring in N even if you compost all of your plant matter directly on the mulch (Which remedies extraction of N from the desired closed loop environment.)


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2011)

Great post Afka. That quote was from the veganic ag network, I just put that up for informational purposes. Most of us are indoor growers. 

I also thought I'd post this... friend me on fbook!
https://www.facebook.com/mattrize1

Or check out my photography:
http://s1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa378/MattRize/


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## KocfOwned (Sep 7, 2011)

Hey guys i got a couple of questions not pertaining to GO and for this i apologize..I would like to brew a Microbial tea for my plants as a soil drench to ensure my soil has the required activity to properly break down all the nice organic nutrients im going to be giving them...Does anyone have a basic/efficient recipe that would give results like the vermi-T people boast.Having over 35,000 Microbes? And how often could/should i use the Tea.Also will i have to brew a different kind of tea once the plants are in flower?


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 7, 2011)

Use the search function. There are many tea threads containing that which you seek.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 7, 2011)

KocfOwned said:


> Hey guys i got a couple of questions not pertaining to GO and for this i apologize..I would like to brew a Microbial tea for my plants as a soil drench to ensure my soil has the required activity to properly break down all the nice organic nutrients im going to be giving them...Does anyone have a basic/efficient recipe that would give results like the vermi-T people boast.Having over 35,000 Microbes? And how often could/should i use the Tea.Also will i have to brew a different kind of tea once the plants are in flower?


Alright, you already know the people at Vermi-T are lying, because they are boasting. This whole industry is full of crap in all honesty, the marketing is 95% lies. In short: Aerated Compost Tea is (vermi)compost and molasses bubbled for a day then diluted and watered in. Here is the basic recipe from a guy who really knows his tea. For more info on teas this article I put up is very comprehensive: It's Tea Time & What is Compost Tea by Tim Wilson

TEA RECIPE from Tim Wilson of www.microbeorganics.com

1 gallon = 16 cups = 256 tablespoons

2.38% by volume compost or vermicompost (EWC) per gallon = .38 cups or around half a cup max or about 2 cups in 5 gallons max.

0.5 to 0.75% molasses by volume per gallon = 1.28 to 1.92 tablespoons per gallon. 0.75% is the maximum I use. It is a good bacterial and fungal food.

0.063% fish hydrolysate by volume per gallon = 0.16 tablespoon = 0.479 teaspoons or half a teaspoon

0.25% (max) kelpmeal by volume per gallon = 0.64 tablespoon or half a tablespoon"


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## KocfOwned (Sep 8, 2011)

I think i found a nice Fish H. product http://www.amazon.com/Neptunes-Harvest-Hydrolized-Fish-Qt/dp/B0012Q2TFA

Other than that i have everything els needed on that list...cant wait to brew up some Tea for my plants..also can i brew it indoors? or does it need fresh air


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## Matt Rize (Sep 8, 2011)

KocfOwned said:


> I think i found a nice Fish H. product http://www.amazon.com/Neptunes-Harvest-Hydrolized-Fish-Qt/dp/B0012Q2TFA
> 
> Other than that i have everything els needed on that list...cant wait to brew up some Tea for my plants..also can i brew it indoors? or does it need fresh air


indoors is okay. the temperature at which you bubble affects the length of time. I just do it at room temp for 24 hours because without a microscope it's really just a guessing game.


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## romulan23 (Sep 8, 2011)

veganic grow here and i want to make hash with the bottom buds. would that be the same process as in your video or do the buds ned to be cut up?

If you dont mind a hash question?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 9, 2011)

romulan23 said:


> veganic grow here and i want to make hash with the bottom buds. would that be the same process as in your video or do the buds ned to be cut up?
> 
> If you dont mind a hash question?


cut them up fresh, not too much, just to break the buds up.


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## snew (Sep 9, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> http://www.goveganic.org/spip.php?article206
> 
> Different ways to garden veganically
> Table of contents
> ...


This had some great info matt thanks


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## malignant (Sep 9, 2011)

im a fan of gen organic seaweed and fish fertilizer makes a lovely tea.


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## Rayne (Sep 11, 2011)

For the sake of getting this information out on the board again.

In regards to the use of earthworm castings in an indoor or outdoor vegan organic grow. Unless anyone wants to hold themselves to the strictest standards of vegan organic growing using earthworm castings is a matter of personal choice.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 11, 2011)

Current Lineups...

Soilless Mix: (all rooms)
Bioterra Plus (new and reused), compost (all veg), EWC (all veg fed), neem cake (neemresource.com), kelp and alfalfa meal, dolomite lime, VAM (BioAg), #5 perlite.


Veg Tent: Measurements in per gallon, all water is treated with molasses to dechlorinate before I add nutes.
5 mL Vega
5 mL CalMag (GO)
5 mL BioRoot (GO)
1 mL Silica (Protek)
Pinch Humic (BioAg)
Pinch TM-7 (BioAg, once a week instead of Humic)
5 to 10 mL Fulpower (BioAg)
Tea (see below)
pH -> 6.3ish @ 500+ ppm 

Flower room: (at peak)
10 to 15 mL Vega/Flores
5 mL CalMag
10 mL BioBoost
Humic/Fulvic same as veg
1 mL Silica
3 mL zymes
Kelp (BioAg and/or Techanflora) 
Tea - local compost + molasses, 24 hr brew at 68ish degrees.
-> 6.1ish pH 900 to 1000 ppm


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## Bird Gymnastics (Sep 11, 2011)

Do you prefer to use unsulfured molasses or just any brand of molasses out there? Just curious because unsulfured is from mature sugar cane when regular is from pre mature and has to have sulphur added for sanitation purposes. Would like to hear your two sense about it.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 11, 2011)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> Do you prefer to use unsulfured molasses or just any brand of molasses out there? Just curious because unsulfured is from mature sugar cane when regular is from pre mature and has to have sulphur added for sanitation purposes. Would like to hear your two sense about it.


Only use unsulfured. I use Wholesome Sweeteners organic unsulfured. You don't need added sulfur.


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## ganjamystic (Sep 12, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if the result of this thread is: a local/sustainable plant-based (99%) potting mix that kicks-ass, on the throw your pens away and feed hella hard level, that anyone can make at home while rivaling the bioterraplus. AND the development of a kick-ass plant based nute system that rivals the biocanna and supplements, that anyone could make from bulk products that are easy and not sketchy to obtain...I could die a happy man.


Ganja Mystic's Local/Sustainable Plant-Based Potting Mix + Nutrients

Potting Mix: Aged pine bark, composted forest humus, worm castings, rice hulls, alfalfa meal, dehydrated banana peel, dehydrated potato skin, kelp meal, dolomite lime

Veg Nutrients: Mountain spring water, raw honey, molasses, epsom salt, extracts of: worm castings, alfalfa, soy, kelp, yucca, aloe, comfrey, nettle & yarrow

Bloom Nutrients: Mountain spring water, raw honey, molasses, epsom salt, extracts of: worm castings, alfalfa, banana peel, potato skin, yucca, aloe, comfrey, nettle & yarrow

Catalyst: Mountain spring water, raw honey, molasses, yeast, extracts of: wheat bran, oat bran & kelp


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2011)

That is awesome. Thanks! First post... do I know you? AND WELCOME!!!


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## ganjamystic (Sep 12, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> That is awesome. Thanks! First post... do I know you? AND WELCOME!!!


Thanks! Yep, first post. You don't know me yet, but we definitely share a similar interest in growing the absolute purest, best quality organic medicine possible! 

I would call mine a _mostly_ vegan/vegetarian approach, though, as I always use worm castings, and sometimes use hydrolyzed fish (from local, organic, farm-raised trout) for an N-P boost, bat guano (from fossilized deposits from collapsed caves only, so it's not even technically poop anymore) for a P boost, and crushed/powdered eggshells (from local, organic, free-range eggs) for a Cal boost... But, I feel like we're definitely on the same page 

Oh and I forgot to mention I sometimes add a little (1/4 tsp per gal) Pink Himalayan Salt, Celtic Sea Salt, or Dead Sea Salt to the nutrient mixtures for trace elements and minerals...

Oh and the best stuff to feed your worms to make super dank worm castings are coffee grounds, crushed egg shells, fruit and vegetable scraps (skins and peels especially) and _most importantly_ cannabis scraps (fan leaves, stalks, roots, etc.)! Think about it: what other plant scrap could have a more perfect nutrient content for cannabis than cannabis itself?? Recycle your cannabis waste!! 

Which makes me realize, I also forgot to mention cannabis scrap extract as another major ingredient in the nutrient mixtures...

Oh and also, plant extracts should be made in two ways: 
1) steeping dried, chopped plant matter in hot water like tea (for extracting compounds)
2) fermenting fresh plant matter with lactobacillus (for extracting elements)

Okay, what else did I forget?...


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2011)

ganjamystic said:


> Okay, what else did I forget?...


The FPEs (fermented plant extracts) like mango/papaya for enzymes


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## ganjamystic (Sep 12, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> The FPEs (fermented plant extracts) like mango/papaya for enzymes


Well I don't use mango or papaya, since I don't typically buy/eat them, and therefore don't have scraps to ferment, but enzymes are definitely important! I use Hygrozyme, which very well could be made from fermented mango/papaya, but it's a "secret enzyme formula" so who knows... 

But yeah, FPEs are exactly what I was talkin bout here:



ganjamystic said:


> Oh and also, plant extracts should be made in two ways:
> 1) steeping dried, chopped plant matter in hot water like tea (for extracting compounds)
> 2) *fermenting fresh plant matter with lactobacillus* (for extracting elements)


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## ganjamystic (Sep 12, 2011)

I do want to throw something out on the table for all of us who are interested in "Veganics" to think about... I mentioned this to Kyle Kushman on his page on medicalmarijuana.com a while back, so I'm just going to repost it here (please note, my opinion has changed somewhat since originally posting this, which I will explain below...)



GanjaMystic said:


> Hi Kyle! Awesome page, awesome vibe! I also am constantly striving to bring my gardening techniques into greater harmony with Mother Nature and do everything in my power to be environmentally and ecologically conscious--everything I can to live a sustainable, organic lifestyle and leave a light footprint on the Earth. I have the utmost respect and compassion for our cohabitants of this planet and want to see all... industries become ethical and humane in their treatment of animals and conscious of their impact on ecosystems and species.
> 
> That being said, I have to ask if you are aware of the facts regarding the source of P in the nutrients you are recommending (canna bio, go biothrive, etc.)--the vegan alternative to phosphorous-rich, non-vegan sources like bone meal, bat and seabird guano, hydrolyzed fish, chicken manure, etc--rock phosphate. Unfortunately, the mining of hard and soft rock phosphate from the Earth for fertilizer, much like the practice of drilling for oil, has been a completely unsustainable practice--one that has now almost completely eliminated the planet's phosphate mineral reserves. In other words, we have reached peak phosphorus. This means essentially all of the phosphorus that used to be in mineral deposits within the Earth (well, all that hasn't already ended up as pollution in rivers, lakes, streams, ponds, groundwater, etc. because of the widespread use of chemical nutrients containing water-soluble forms of P) is now in the plants we have grown with it, in the bodies of the animals who have eaten these plants, and in the waste of these animals (including humanure)...
> 
> ...


Okay, first, I must stand by my statement that the use of rock phosphate has to be phased out. There's no way around that. (I'm talkin to _you_, Canna & General Organics!)

However, I do know now that it's possible to grow vegan cannabis using fermented plant extracts and plant-based compost, BUT, it's also important to realize that the plants that can be used to make a decently P-rich FPE (banana, potato, cucumber, squash, etc.) are not grown "veganically" themselves. They are either grown with chemical ferts (in the case of non-organic) or with blood meal, bone meal, guano, fish hydrosylate, manure, etc. (in the case of organic)... 

So... Although one can avoid using animal by-products and waste products _directly_ to grow cannabis. _Indirectly_, the nutrients from these products still eventually end up in the herb.

That being said, there are ways (composting & fermentation) to completely convert guano and manure to a "non-poop" state before use as fertilizer, thus eliminating odors and the potential for pathogens...

So, if one wanted to grow cannabis using only plant-based compost and fermented plant extracts, and also wanted to be sure that no products of animal farming (blood meal, bone meal, etc.) were used, even indirectly, that no animal habitats were disturbed or destroyed, and that no raw poop was used, one would pretty much need to grow the plants for the FPEs themselves using guano collected under bat boxes that had been totally composted and/or fermented (bokashi-style) prior to use...


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## ganjamystic (Sep 12, 2011)

ganjamystic said:


> Okay, first, I must stand by my statement that the use of rock phosphate has to be phased out. There's no way around that. (I'm talkin to you, Canna & General Organics!)


I forgot to mention, there _does_ appear to be a brand of organic nutrients on the market that doesn't contain rock phosphate OR animal products: Pura Vida Organics by Technaflora...

Haven't tried these yet, but I'm definitely intrigued! Apparently, they can even be used in hydroponic or drip systems without clogging lines!

Check it out!



> OMRI Listed for use in organic production. Pura Vida Organics Grow (6-4-3) is a unique fertilizer that specifically targets the vegetative growth phase. Creates lush green foliage while providing plants with both a balanced and available nutrient supply.
> 
> Ideal for use in hydroponic, soil and soilless based gardening mediums. Will NOT clog irrigation lines and does NOT have the nasty smells associated with other organic brands.
> 
> ...





> Pura Vida Grow & Bloom are unique blends of fertilizers that provide plants with both a balanced and available nutrient supply in a natural form. Suitable for use in hydroponic, soil and soilless based gardening mediums, both Pura Vida  Grow and Bloom can be applied without the fear of irrigation line clogging and without the nasty smells associated with other organic brands.
> 
> Formulated from various plant materials and subjected to a fermentation process, Pura Vida Grow & Bloom contain sufficient nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P) and potassium (K) along with essential micro nutrients to sustain rapid, aggressive growth during the vegetative stage and to produce abundant fragrant flowers and mature fruits during the flowering/fruiting stages.
> 
> ...


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## Matt Rize (Sep 12, 2011)

ganjamystic said:


> I forgot to mention, there _does_ appear to be a brand of organic nutrients on the market that doesn't contain rock phosphate OR animal products: Pura Vida Organics by Technaflora...
> 
> Haven't tried these yet, but I'm definitely intrigued! Apparently, they can even be used in hydroponic or drip systems without clogging lines!
> 
> Check it out!


All my friends use pure vida. The results are very commercial. They recently lost their organic listing, but thats not really a big deal to me. Great posts. 

In reference to FPEs, I've been told to not use Lacto b, and that the indigenous microflora is sufficient to perform the fermentation. I'm no expert here, my comfrey is almost big enough to start taking leaves off.


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## KocfOwned (Sep 12, 2011)

hey matt quick question for you,I need to know how to PH up my Organic nutrient solution..I know lime does the trick But im running Roots Organics soil and im sure theres already a decent amount in there and dont want to go adding more than i need...I'm Running the G.O line and they say not to PH adjust but i hear otherwise from people...saying is best to bring it to 5.5 and then feed as apposed to leaving it in the low range of 4.5-4.7..Any thoughts on the subject

Thanks in advance


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## ganjamystic (Sep 12, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> All my friends use pure vida. The results are very commercial. They recently lost their organic listing, but thats not really a big deal to me. Great posts.


Thanks! By the results being commercial, do you mean good yields but lacking in the flavors, aromas, and colors you said the biocanna line brings out? If so, I'm thinking that could probably be fixed with some tropical plant extracts (banana, papaya, mango, pineapple, etc.). I haven't yet really started experimenting with plant extracts for flavor specifically, but have definitely noticed improved aesthetic qualities since switching to primarily plant-based nutrients. I was reading the other day about a product called Banana Manna, which is said to really bring out the natural flavor and aroma potential of plants:



> It is a nutrient supplement and can be used in conjunction with a regular fertilizing program. It can be used as foliar feed or root feed. This formulation contains concentrated organic extract of banana, mango, guava and other exotic tropical plants rich in hormones and vitamins known to increase essential oil production in plants. It is known to enhance flavor of fruits...
> 
> ~ Stimulates the production of essential oils, which gives plants better flavor. Strawberries are sweeter, peppers are hotter, and basil is more "basily."...
> 
> ...


This got me thinking that this must be why the buds are tasting so much better now that I'm using fermented banana peel in my bloom nute mixture... Rather than buy Banana Manna or a similar product for $50 a gallon, it could easily be brewed at home for much less!

~~~~~~~



Matt Rize said:


> In reference to FPEs, I've been told to not use Lacto b, and that the indigenous microflora is sufficient to perform the fermentation. I'm no expert here, my comfrey is almost big enough to start taking leaves off.


Good to know! Are you talking about doing something like this?



> Forest Beneficial Microorganisms
> 
> One technique in culturing other beneficial microorganism is getting them fro your local aged forest. One way is finding a healthy old robust tree in your local forest. Check the humus litter around the tree. The tree should have accumulated real deep humus, litter, compost of at least 2 feet to 1 yard deep. In this area through observation, we can deduce that soil fertility and microbial biodiversity are high. Our goal is to trap and culture these diversed, aged beneficial indigenous microorganisms. The technique that we use in trapping these microorganisms is the use of carbohydrate like cooked rice. Microorganisms will be attracted to food. So generally, what we do is to put the cooked rice on a flatter container with lid. For example, you can use a plastic lunch box and add about an inch of cooked rice allowing air space in the container. What is important here is a larger area to trap those microorganisms. It is suggested that you cover this container with metal netting or equivalent protecting it from animals like rats that may undig your container once you bury it in the litter, humus of your local forest. In 2-10 days (relative to temperature), you may undig your container and will notice contamination of microorganisms like white and other color molds on the cooked rice. The cooked rice has been infected now with microorganisms of your local forest. The next step is to add 1/3 amount of crude sugar or molasses to the infected cooked rice. After a week, the concoction will look like sticky, liquidy rice. You may then add equal amount of crude sugar or molasses to keep it for storage, arresting microbial activities, in a cooler area. To use, you may dilute this serum with 20 parts water. This diluted form shall then serve as your basic forest microorganisms. You may strain it and put in a container.
> 
> ...


Thanks again for the replies, Matt. It's really great to converse with somebody who's as into all this as I am!


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## ganjamystic (Sep 12, 2011)

KocfOwned said:


> hey matt quick question for you,I need to know how to PH up my Organic nutrient solution..I know lime does the trick But im running Roots Organics soil and im sure theres already a decent amount in there and dont want to go adding more than i need...I'm Running the G.O line and they say not to PH adjust but i hear otherwise from people...saying is best to bring it to 5.5 and then feed as apposed to leaving it in the low range of 4.5-4.7..Any thoughts on the subject
> 
> Thanks in advance


Earth Juice makes a natural PH up called, you guessed it, Natural Up! (haha creative name right?) Sorry, I know your question wasn't addressed to me, but I figured since I was here...


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## KocfOwned (Sep 12, 2011)

ganjamystic said:


> Earth Juice makes a natural PH up called, you guessed it, Natural Up! (haha creative name right?) Sorry, I know your question wasn't addressed to me, but I figured since I was here...


LOL thanks for the Fast response broesf ^_^...and the Natural up wont kill my bennies??


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## ganjamystic (Sep 12, 2011)

KocfOwned said:


> LOL thanks for the Fast response broesf ^_^


No problem



KocfOwned said:


> ...and the Natural up wont kill my bennies??


Nope, shouldn't as long as you use as directed and just bring the ph up to 5.5 - 6.5 (the less adjustment, the better.. so 5.5 is probably good). It's meant to be used with Earth Juice's whole line of natural/organic ferts, which are dependent upon beneficial microbes to break everything down into usable form for the plant, so your bennies should be totally fine...

BUT, I should add that you should check the pH of your runoff before adjusting. That is a better indicator of whether or not you need to adjust. The lime in your soil should already be acting as a buffer and keeping your pH in a decent range. Try feeding really really slowly to make sure you don't let any nutes run straight through. Then, when your soil is saturated, let it chill for a few minutes until some nutrient solution drains out of the bottom. Test the pH of that to see if it's in optimal range first. You may not need to adjust as much as you think


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## ganjamystic (Sep 12, 2011)

Oh and just so you know, KofcOwned, I ran the GO line several times with no pH adjustment (I don't even own a pH meter) and had good results. The buds never got quite as big as I hoped, but I don't know if that was a pH issue or the nutes overall or simply the strain (Space Jill by TGA Subcool) because I started a new strain and a new nutrient line at the same time. The plants looked totally healthy throughout the grows and didn't appear to have any lockout issues, so I assumed it was either not quite enough P during flower or just the strain itself... Perhaps the plants could have thrived more if I'd have adjusted the pH, or maybe not... I really have no idea... I've always believed there wasn't much need to adjust pH with organics as long as you have a good buffer like dolomite in your soil, but I've never done a side-by-side test with pH-adjusted nutes and non-adjusted ones. I have had lots and lots of grows with awesome results over the last 8 years with different strains and different lines of organic nutrients and no pH adjustment though, so it definitely isn't an absolute necessity, unless of course you're seeing signs of nutrient lockout...

Matt, what's your opinion on pH and organics/veganics? Raise it or no?


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## Samwell Seed Well (Sep 12, 2011)

wow their is alot of info here its gonna take me along to to read through it, but im new to organics ill be running the beneficial biologists primordial solutions, rootamentary, root bloom with Mycorrhizae, sea green and true bloom line amended with budswell and also ill be ruining the whole bio bizz line amended with sea green and budswell

quick question im gonna use the 707 line i believe or just Roots Organic pro mix? not sure yet but im only using,


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## ganjamystic (Sep 13, 2011)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> ill be running the beneficial biologists primordial solutions, rootamentary, root bloom with Mycorrhizae, sea green and true bloom line


Wow thank you so much for sharing this! I'd never heard of Beneficial Biologics before; this stuff sounds amazing!


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## Afka (Sep 13, 2011)

Man you guys are silly falling for all these gimmicks.

The more ground your lime is, the faster it starts working. ... Natural pH up/down... lol 18$ a quart right?


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## ganjamystic (Sep 13, 2011)

Afka said:


> Man you guys are silly falling for all these gimmicks.
> 
> The more ground your lime is, the faster it starts working. ... Natural pH up/down... lol 18$ a quart right?


Read KofcOwned's question again: 


KofcOwned said:


> hey matt quick question for you,*I need to know how to PH up my Organic nutrient solution..I know lime does the trick But im running Roots Organics soil and im sure theres already a decent amount in there and dont want to go adding more than i need*...


He was already aware of lime's ability to raise pH; However, since lime, which is straight Calcium and Magnesium, was already present in his soil, he thought it would be a bad idea to simply use more lime to adjust the pH of his nutrient solution. 

Since EJ's Natural up is potassium bicarbonate, rather than calcium magnesium bicarbonate, it's a good choice for KofcOwned to raise the pH of his nutrients without upsetting the balance of Ca/Mg in his soil, and at 2 lbs. for $17.50, it's actually a great price; I don't think you can buy potassium carbonate, even in bulk, for much cheaper. 

I will go ahead and state right now that the importance of the Ca:Mg ratio in soil is debated, and that Ca and Mg toxicities are rare; however, if KofcOwned wants to play it safe and not add more lime if there's another option, that seems wise to me.

As I said, I don't even own a pH meter, and have rarely (if ever) experienced pH problems, so all of this pH adjusting business seems a bit unnecessary to me, but who am I to call another man "silly"?


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 13, 2011)

KocfOwned said:


> hey matt quick question for you,I need to know how to PH up my Organic nutrient solution..I know lime does the trick But im running Roots Organics soil and im sure theres already a decent amount in there and dont want to go adding more than i need...I'm Running the G.O line and they say not to PH adjust but i hear otherwise from people...saying is best to bring it to 5.5 and then feed as apposed to leaving it in the low range of 4.5-4.7..Any thoughts on the subject
> 
> Thanks in advance


Silica, man, that's your best bet. Either Dynagro Protekt, or Botanicare Silica Blast. Both work extremely well as pH up, and provide a vital boost of silica to the plant cells which help them resist pests, molds, etc... You really can't lose.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 13, 2011)

Afka said:


> Man you guys are silly falling for all these gimmicks.
> 
> The more ground your lime is, the faster it starts working. ... Natural pH up/down... lol 18$ a quart right?


Pretty much only "up", since the minimum pH of lime is like 7...


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## ganjamystic (Sep 13, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Silica, man, that's your best bet. Either Dynagro Protekt, or Botanicare Silica Blast. Both work extremely well as pH up, and provide a vital boost of silica to the plant cells which help them resist pests, molds, etc... You really can't lose.


Been growing for 8 years and am just now starting to hear about silica... Glad to learn this! Thanks!


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## Matt Rize (Sep 13, 2011)

ganjamystic said:


> Thanks! By the results being commercial, do you mean good yields but lacking in the flavors, aromas, and colors you said the biocanna line brings out? If so, I'm thinking that could probably be fixed with some tropical plant extracts (banana, papaya, mango, pineapple, etc.). I haven't yet really started experimenting with plant extracts for flavor specifically, but have definitely noticed improved aesthetic qualities since switching to primarily plant-based nutrients. I was reading the other day about a product called Banana Manna, which is said to really bring out the natural flavor and aroma potential of plants:
> 
> This got me thinking that this must be why the buds are tasting so much better now that I'm using fermented banana peel in my bloom nute mixture... Rather than buy Banana Manna or a similar product for $50 a gallon, it could easily be brewed at home for much less!
> 
> ...


yeah by commercial from pure vida I mean low resin/flavor with big buds. The biocanna is the opposite, low yield with extra resin/flavor. 
I had some samples of that bannamanna and it looked/smelled kinda crazy. I'm not sure about how safe that product is. It reminded me of something I would find in the chem lab. 

I think DIY fruit ferments is where this is all headed. A friend of mine is working on making comfrey syrup for gardeners.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 13, 2011)

ganjamystic said:


> Oh and just so you know, KofcOwned, I ran the GO line several times with no pH adjustment (I don't even own a pH meter) and had good results. The buds never got quite as big as I hoped, but I don't know if that was a pH issue or the nutes overall or simply the strain (Space Jill by TGA Subcool) because I started a new strain and a new nutrient line at the same time. The plants looked totally healthy throughout the grows and didn't appear to have any lockout issues, so I assumed it was either not quite enough P during flower or just the strain itself... Perhaps the plants could have thrived more if I'd have adjusted the pH, or maybe not... I really have no idea... I've always believed there wasn't much need to adjust pH with organics as long as you have a good buffer like dolomite in your soil, but I've never done a side-by-side test with pH-adjusted nutes and non-adjusted ones. I have had lots and lots of grows with awesome results over the last 8 years with different strains and different lines of organic nutrients and no pH adjustment though, so it definitely isn't an absolute necessity, unless of course you're seeing signs of nutrient lockout...
> 
> Matt, what's your opinion on pH and organics/veganics? Raise it or no?


I watch my pH closely because it changes seasonally, and adjust it if it is way off after mixing nutes. When I'm at full strength feeding the nutes adjust the pH perfectly for me, but early and late I usually drop my pH to 6.3ish.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 13, 2011)

Afka said:


> Man you guys are silly falling for all these gimmicks.
> 
> The more ground your lime is, the faster it starts working. ... Natural pH up/down... lol 18$ a quart right?


Actually lime will pull your soil pH to around 7.0 and cannabis plants prefer an acidic environment around 6.3 for soil and lower for soil-less/hydro. Peat is acidic (4.5ish) just fyi, also a great grow media for cannabis. I use lime in my potting mix, but too much will bring my soil pH up to 7.0, too high.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 13, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Silica, man, that's your best bet. Either Dynagro Protekt, or Botanicare Silica Blast. Both work extremely well as pH up, and provide a vital boost of silica to the plant cells which help them resist pests, molds, etc... You really can't lose.


IMO botanicare is a rip off compared to the dyna gro proteKt. 1/4 the strength at a similar price. I use 1 mL/gallon silica from start to the couple weeks. Crucial, no PM issues for me recently.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 13, 2011)

Romulan ice wax (ice water extract) heading to www.southbayCRC.org in a week or so.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 13, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> IMO botanicare is a rip off compared to the dyna gro proteKt. 1/4 the strength at a similar price. I use 1 mL/gallon silica from start to the couple weeks. Crucial, no PM issues for me recently.


Word. This year almost all of my friends had PM or botrytis issues, and I had trouble keeping my humidity in check throughout flowering. Zero Pm, zero botrytis, just fat juicy, sticky nugs of dankness. And yeah, I'm probably going to switch to Protekt but I still have a bottle and a half of Silica Blast to use up first. I don't use a lot, so it goes slowly, plus I bought an extra bottle last time (I like to have extra everything).


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## KocfOwned (Sep 13, 2011)

ganjamystic said:


> Read KofcOwned's question again:
> 
> 
> He was already aware of lime's ability to raise pH; However, since lime, which is straight Calcium and Magnesium, was already present in his soil, he thought it would be a bad idea to simply use more lime to adjust the pH of his nutrient solution.
> ...


Dammit it wont let me REP you again LOL Dude your VAT of useful knowledge bro ^_^....How some other questions for ya..you mentioned earlier not to poor to quickly as the nutrients will come out the bottom..aside from wasting good nutes lol is this bad? Prolly has to do with making sure there are no dry pockets of soil huh? and you ran the entire G.O line how often did you use the Bio marine? as im using it with every feeding as suggested


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## ganjamystic (Sep 14, 2011)

KocfOwned said:


> Dammit it wont let me REP you again LOL Dude your VAT of useful knowledge bro ^_^....How some other questions for ya..you mentioned earlier not to poor to quickly as the nutrients will come out the bottom..aside from wasting good nutes lol is this bad? Prolly has to do with making sure there are no dry pockets of soil huh? and you ran the entire G.O line how often did you use the Bio marine? as im using it with every feeding as suggested


Glad to help! That's the great thing about these forums. It's so nice to share info with other growers! I been growing forever now but have already learned some great new stuff since joining this site just a few days ago 

But, to answer your questions, yes, you're right on. Watering too quickly can cause your nutrient solution to run straight through without being absorbed by the growing medium, thus wasting nutes and leaving dry pockets in your mix, which of course the roots don't like... For big containers, watering wands or old school watering cans with a shower-type head work great. For smaller grows, you can use a half-gallon juice bottle or something and drill a small hole in the lid, which will give you total control of how fast or slow the nutes squirt out based on how much you squeeze the bottle or not... I like to water just a little bit at first, just to get the soil moist, then I come back a little bit later and do the real watering. Once the soil's already a little bit moist, it soaks up nutes like a sponge! 

And to tell you the truth, I skipped the BioMarine just cuz I was doing a totally "veganic" grow, but hydrolyzed fish is great stuff! Not only can you use it with every watering, but you can technically grow whole crops from start to finish with nothing else! I'm not suggesting you do this, just sayin, it's possible!


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## ganjamystic (Sep 14, 2011)

That hash looks awesome, by the way, Matt!


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## KocfOwned (Sep 14, 2011)

ganjamystic said:


> That hash looks awesome, by the way, Matt!


 Agreed  thanks again GanjaMystic


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## Matt Rize (Sep 14, 2011)

ganjamystic said:


> That hash looks awesome, by the way, Matt!


 I accidentally took pics of the 2nd wash, lol, my 1st is even cleaner. Thanks for joining and posting.


KocfOwned said:


> Agreed  thanks again GanjaMystic


 Thanks as well.


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## KocfOwned (Sep 14, 2011)

Matt that is the purest LOOKING bubble I've ever seen dude...and I've seen my fair share of bubble, how did you get it so pure??????


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## Matt Rize (Sep 14, 2011)

KocfOwned said:


> Matt that is the purest LOOKING bubble I've ever seen dude...and I've seen my fair share of bubble, how did you get it so pure??????


Making pure ice water extract is what I do man. These days the gardens take second fiddle. Combo of fresh/frozen trim, RO water and ice, gentle agitation, and proper drying techniques.


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## farmer2424 (Sep 14, 2011)

Hey Matt, liked your Grow Tip on emulsification in this months High Times. gonna have to give that a try. Good Work!


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## KocfOwned (Sep 14, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Making pure ice water extract is what I do man. These days the gardens take second fiddle. Combo of fresh/frozen trim, RO water and ice, gentle agitation, and proper drying techniques.


teach me sifu matt ^_^ im tired of making inferior hash brother...I only use the best trim when i make hash btw.. it doesn't come out bad..BUT nothing like what you posted


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## Samwell Seed Well (Sep 14, 2011)

ganjamystic said:


> Wow thank you so much for sharing this! I'd never heard of Beneficial Biologics before; this stuff sounds amazing!


sea green is a salt destroyer and turns tsalt into benificail mirco for your plant water every day without fear of salt biuld up or lock out


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## Matt Rize (Sep 14, 2011)

farmer2424 said:


> Hey Matt, liked your Grow Tip on emulsification in this months High Times. gonna have to give that a try. Good Work!


What? Really? Oh snap. I gotta go check that. What month/page? I just picked up the Sept issue and didn't see anything.


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## cannawizard (Sep 14, 2011)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> wow their is alot of info here its gonna take me along to to read through it, but im new to organics ill be running the beneficial biologists primordial solutions, rootamentary, root bloom with Mycorrhizae, sea green and true bloom line amended with budswell and also ill be ruining the whole bio bizz line amended with sea green and budswell
> 
> quick question im gonna use the 707 line i believe or just Roots Organic pro mix? not sure yet but im only using,


*rootamentary and sea green are the "shizznits"--- glad someone else is using their full line  ..cannabis approved


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## farmer2424 (Sep 14, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> What? Really? Oh snap. I gotta go check that. What month/page? I just picked up the Sept issue and didn't see anything.


november issue, page 48._ 21 Grow room Tricks and Tips From The Pros_


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## Matt Rize (Sep 15, 2011)

farmer2424 said:


> november issue, page 48._ 21 Grow room Tricks and Tips From The Pros_


Thanks, my local pipe store said they get that issue later today. And Danko is going to hook me up with a couple free issues 

Did you see in the September issue that GO was ranked top organic line, and Biocanna was the top veganic line?


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## farmer2424 (Sep 15, 2011)

haha nice man thats sweet. must be sick to have ins with them. And yeah, thats sick they got top spots, has got to be the best way to go. I'm running the general organics line in my indoor this winter. Some of the best organic buds on RUI that i've seen grown in soil are fed general organics or biocanna. i'm not ready to go totally veganic yet, but what would u recommend are the necessities to get out of the general organics line? I've heard the biothrive isn't the greatest bloom nute for the money. Do you like bio root?


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## Matt Rize (Sep 15, 2011)

farmer2424 said:


> haha nice man thats sweet. must be sick to have ins with them. And yeah, thats sick they got top spots, has got to be the best way to go. I'm running the general organics line in my indoor this winter. Some of the best organic buds on RUI that i've seen grown in soil are fed general organics or biocanna. i'm not ready to go totally veganic yet, but what would u recommend are the necessities to get out of the general organics line? I've heard the biothrive isn't the greatest bloom nute for the money. Do you like bio root?


I just started using bio root, so no opinion on it yet. I've seen great results with the GO line, but feed heavy, that's the thing about vegan organic bottled nutes.


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## cannawizard (Sep 16, 2011)

--forgot your headband, kept it safe for ya


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## Matt Rize (Sep 17, 2011)

Maybe it's because of their wine-making heritage, but the French are obsessed with fermenting various plants into special insecticidal, bactericidal, and fungicidal brews to use on...other plants. Remember the article on brewing an extract of stinging nettles in this column? 



Well, the nettle is the undisputed queen of the French gardener's vegetal fermentations. But at least a score of other plants are used as well, each for a very specific purpose which apparently has been evolved by experience. Some of them--such as pyrethrum (Tanacetum cinerariifolium, main photo above) you may have used for some time without realizing it. This plant would go unrecognized by most gardeners, yet it is the source of commercial organic pyrethrum, a well-known insecticide.

The exciting thing is that now, scientists in France are beginning to evaluate these concoctions in a serious way, and to standardize the best practices for producing and using them. Some plants, such as garlic, are not fermented but rather used in decoction (analogous to making tea) or maceration (in oil or water).

The basic method of fermentation is simple enough, which is not to say anything goes. First you need a container made of a nonreactive material. A 50-gallon plastic garbage can works fine. You need to cover your container during fermentation, but not tightly, or it might explode! Either punch some holes in your garbage can lid or cover the can with a piece of burlap or other cloth. While you can use smaller containers, 50 gallons is an optimal homeowner-scale size that is big enough to help moderate temperature extremes during fermentation.

An unheated garage or outbuilding is a good place to conduct the fermentation, the speed of which is temperature dependent. The higher the temperature--up to a point--the faster the fermentation.

The water you use is very important. The ideal source of water is rain, being free of calcareous minerals or additives such as chlorine which can retard or stop fermentation. If you must use hard well water, add a bit of vinegar to it to lower the pH. City water should be allowed to stand several days to allow the chlorine to evaporate before you use it for your extracts.

The duration of fermentation can range from a few days to a couple of weeks. When the mixture stops bubbling when you stir or otherwise move the contents, fermentation is complete. Check your brew daily.

It is imperative that you filter your extract. Doing so stops the fermentation from going too far, and also prevents globs of stuff from plugging up your sprayer or watering can when you apply the brew. Use a very fine strainer lined with cheesecloth, an old clean teeshirt, anything short of a coffee filter or other filter paper, which filters out too much.

Store your extract in stainless steel or plastic containers in a cool place, around 40-50 degrees F being ideal. French folks like to use 5-gallon plastic wine containers, appropriately enough. While a wine cellar is also an excellent place to store your extracts, make sure to label carefully!

Once you have your made your extract or infusion, you of course need to apply it. Most often, you spray it on, just as you would a conventional pesticide or foliar fertilizer, taking care to cover the undersides of leaves. But some remedies are applied as a soil drench. This is best accomplished with a good old-fashioned watering can.

Okay, now that you know the basics, here is the roster of beneficial plants and how to use them.



Wormwood (Artemisia absinthium) Perennial plant with silvery, aromatic foliage.
Action. Repellent, especially against cabbage butterflies and codling moth on apples during period of egg-laying. Fungicidal against rust on currants.
Fermented extract (2 lbs. of fresh plant material to 2.5 gallons water) Undiluted for rust on currants. Undiluted sprayed on soil to repel slugs. Diluted to 10% against codling moth and cabbage worm. Note: Do not throw detritus of fermentation on compost, as it will slow its breakdown.

Fernleaf yarrow (Achillea millefolium)
Perennial plant with ferny, silvery, aromatic foliage and white flowers.
Active ingredients: pro-azulene, a volatile oil; isovalerianic and salicylic acids (salicylic acid is aspirin, which is why a tea of this plant reduces pain and fever in humans.)
Action. Promotes compost breakdown; potentiates fungicides.
Cold maceration. 1 oz. of dried flowers in 1 quart of water; macerate 24 hours. Add to fungicide treatment, such as horsetail or tansy.

Garlic (Allium sativum)
Needs no explanation, except to say that garlic is perennial if left in place.
Active ingredients. Sulfur-containing compounds.
Action. Insecticide and fungicide.
Preparation. In decoction: chop 4 oz. peeled cloves and add to 1 quart water. Bring to boil, cover and remove from heat, infuse for one hour. Strain and use without diluting. Used as a soil drench, excellent to prevent damping off of seedlings. In oil maceration: Place 4 oz. of peeled cloves and 2 T. linseed oil in a mixer or blender and pulverize. Filter, washing the filtrate (and mixing in) 1 qt. rainwater. Store one week before using. Adding a bit of soap as a surfactant before spraying is useful. Effective against aphids and mites.
Note: This is a great use for spare garlic at the end of the winter storage season, which is beginning to sprout and taste unpalatable.



Cocklebur (Arctium lappa). Infamous biennial weed.
Active ingredients. Tanins, mucilage, resins, sulfate and potassium phosphate, calcium, and magnesium.
Action. Fungicide effective against mildew on potatoes.
Preparation. Use the whole plant before flowering. The root has the most active ingredients. In fermented extract, use 2 lbs. fresh plant to 2.5 gal. of water. Attention: strong odor! Filter and dilute to 5% before spraying on potato foliage. Also, just pick the leaves and use them as a mulch on your potatoes.

Nasturtium (Trapaeolum majus). Flowering annual.
Active ingredients. Sulfur-containing compounds.
Action. Fungicidal against canker on tree fruits. Insectifuge against white fly (repellent).
Preparation. In infusion, 2 lbs. fresh leaves in 5 quarts of water. Boil water, add leaves, infuse like tea one hour. Use undiluted on fruit trees. Dilute to 30% to spray tomatos against mildew.



Comfreys (Symphytum officinalis, S. x uplandicum). Flowering perennial.
Active ingredients. Allantoin, which stimulates cell multiplication. This is why allantoin is such an excellent ingredient for skin creams, especially for chapped skin.
Action.Comfrey is a powerful stimulator of all cell multiplication, e.g. growth. It stimulates microbial growth in the soil, and in compost, thus acting as an 'activator'. Comfrey stimulates seedling development as well as foliar growth.
Preparation. In fermented extract, use 2 lbs. of fresh leaves in 2.5 gal. of water. As a soil drench, dilute to 20%; as a foliar fertilizer and seedling fertilizer, dilute to 5%.

Spurge (Euphorbia lathyris). Hardy perennial.
Active ingredient. Euphorbone.
Action. Repels moles and voles, but must be prepared and sprayed to be effective. Having the plant on your property does not suffice.
Preparation. In fermented extract, harvest the stems and leaves; the terminals have the most active ingredient, from April to October. Caution! The milky sap of this plant causes skin irritations! Wear long-cuffed gloves to protect your hands and arms. Use 2 lbs. fresh plant material per 2.5 gals. of water. Spray around cultivated areas.

Bracken fern and male fern. (Pteridium aquilinum, Dryopteris felix-mas). Perennial plant.
Action. Insecticide and insectifuge.
Active ingredients. Gallic and acetic acids; tannin; cyanogenic heterosides; potassium; aldehydes transformed to methaldehydes after fermentation.
Preparation. In fermented extract, 2 lbs of fresh leaves to 2.5 gal. of water. May be fermented simultaneously with nettle or horsetail. Dilute to 10% before spraying. Effective against some pests of potato and grape, very effective against wooly aphid. Note: bracken fern is indigenous in many areas, especially in well-drained acid soils, and is often considered invasive, as it is rhizomatous.



Lavender (Lavandula angustifolia). Flowering perennial. 
Active ingredients. Over 250 different compounds!
Action. Insectifuge, insecticide.
Preparation. In fermented extract, 2 lbs. of fresh plant material per 2.5 gal. of water, dilute to 10% before using. For dried material, use 7 oz. 
In simple infusion, use 4 oz. of fresh plant material in 1 qt. of water, or 2/3 oz. of dried plant material per quart.
Note: If you live in a cool climate, your lavender will be less potent than that grown in a hot climate. Double the quantities or use dried plant material from a southern source.



English ivy (Hedera helix). Perennial vine.
Active ingredient. Heteroside which is liberated during fermentation.
Action. Insectifuge and insecticide against white fly, spider mites, and aphids.
Preparation. In fermented extract, use 2 lbs. chopped leaves in 2.5 gal. of water. In observing fermentation, don't confuse the foam caused by the saponins in the leaves with the gas bubbles of fermentation. Dilute to 5% before spraying. Beekeepers in the 18th century rubbed their hands with ivy to protect themselves from bee stings. Caution! The extract is toxic and must be kept out of the reach of children. Also, many people are allergic to the sap of ivy and/or to the fine hairs on the reverse of the leaves. Wear gloves to protect yourself.

Lemon balm. (Melissa officinalis). Perennial aromatic culinary and medicinal herb.
Active ingredient. Many aromatic compounds.
Action. Insectifuge against aphids, mosquitos, white fly, and ants.
Preparation. In infusion, 2 oz. of fresh plant in 1 qt. of water. Allow to cool, filter, and spray without diluting. Note: Do not use on seedling beds as it can prevent germination of seedlings.



Peppermint. (Mentha piperita) Perennial aromatic culinary and medicinal herb.
Active ingredients. Many aromatic compounds.
Action. Insectifuge and insecticide against aphids.
Preparation. In infusion, 4 oz. of fresh plant in 1 qt. of water. Allow to cool, filter, and spray undiluted.
In fermented extract, 2 lbs. of fresh plant to 2.5 gal. of water. Ferments extremely fast. Dilute to 10% before using. Note: Impedes germination so don't use on seedling beds.

Stinging nettle (Urtica dioica). Perennial weed.
Active ingredients. A cocktail of ingredients still poorly analyzed but including formic acid, as well as iron, nitrogen, and many trace minerals. Acts as an immunostimulant for plants. 
Action. Strongly stimulant to both microbial and plant growth, thus a compost activator as well as fertiliser. Insectifuge and sometimes insecticide against aphids, mites, and other pests.
Preparation. Use of the whole plant before flowering. Studies have shown that including the roots adds a fungicidal action to the extract. In fermented extract (the famous purin d'ortie), 2 lbs. of fresh plant in 2.5 gal. of water, fermented for a few days only. Dilute to 20% before using as soil drench or foliar feed. Use full strength as a natural herbicide (it kills with 'fertilizer burn' because it is so rich). Soak bareroot plants for 30 minutes in the pure extract or for 12 hours in a 20% dilution before planting to stimulate rapid establishment and vigor. 

The nettle reigns supreme among plants for fermentation in France. The fermented extract is sold commercially in garden centers, and clubs and associations of nettle fanatics exist throughout France. Needless to say perhaps, but wear gloves when handling nettles. It's not for nothing they're called 'stinging.'

Horsetail. (Equisetum arvense). Perennial plant and medicinal herb.
Active ingredients. Diverse alkaloids, nicotinic acid, silica.
Action. Insectifuge, preventive fungicide, plant tonic and growth stimulant.
Preparation. In decoction, boil 1 lb. of fresh plant with 5 qts. of water for 1 hour, allow to infuse 12 hours, filter and dilute to 20%. 
In fermented extract, 1/2 lb. of dried plant in 2.5 gal. of water. Dilute to 5% before using.
Horsetail, along with nettle and fern, form the Big Three among medicinal plants for plants, according to the French. I remember my Swiss grandmother gathering horsetail and drying it in pillowcases for use in astringent poultices.

Pyrethrum (Tanacetum cinerariifolium, main photo above). Perennial.
Active ingredient. Pyrethrins.
Action. Insecticide against aphids, cabbage fly, whitefly, carrot fly, and others. Does not hurt bees.
Preparation. Harvest the flowers when open, and dry them. In infusion, use 1 oz. in 2 qts. of water. Filter when cool and spray undiluted. In fermented extract, use 3 oz. in 2.5 gal. of water. Dilute to 20%. Spray after sundown or in very early morning.



Horseradish (Armoracia rusticana)
Perennial culinary herb.
Active ingredients. Sulfuric heteroside, glucosinolate.
Action. Fungicide against blackspot on cherries.
Preparation. In infusion, 12 oz. of fresh plant material (leaves and roots chopped) in 2 1/2 gal. of water. Filter when cool and spray undiluted. In fermented extract, 4 oz. of chopped root in 2.5 gal. of water. Use full strength on seedlings for damping off.






Rhubarb (Rheum rhaponticum).
Perennial potager plant.
Active ingredients. Oxalic acid as salt of calcium.
Action. Insectifuge against aphids, caterpillars, and other larvae. Repulsive to herbivores.
Preparation. In cold maceration, use 1 lb. of chopped leaves in 3 quarts of water; allow to soak 24 hours before filtering. Use full strength. This is a great way to use rhubarb leaves as you eat the stalks.




Rue (Ruta graveolens). Perennial herb.
Active ingredients. Tannins, heterosides, malic acid, glucosides, and others.
Action. Insecticide and repulsive.
Preparation. Harvest fresh leaves and stems before flowering. In fermented extract, 2 lbs. of fresh plant material in 2.5 gal. of water fermented for 10 days. Dilute to 20%. Repels mice, chipmunks, and other chewers. Spray against aphids.

Dockweed (Rumex obtusifolius). Perennial weed.
Active ingredients. Have not been studied.
Action. Fungicide against canker on apples and pears.
Preparation. In infusion, 2 lbs. fresh leaves in 5 qts. boiling water. Filter when cool, spray full strength on cankers. Treat young trees preventatively. Spring is best time.



Soapwort Saponaria officinalis). Flowering perennial.
Active ingredients. Saponins.
Action. Insecticide, insectifuge.
Preparation. In infusion, 4 oz. fresh material in 1 qt. boiling water. Filter when cool and spray undiluted. In fermented extract, 2 lbs. fresh plant material in 2.5 gal. of water. Dilute to 10% before using.






Sage. (Salvia officinalis). Perennial herb.
Active ingredients. Monoterpenones, including thujone, camphor, and others, aldehydes, coumarin.
Action. Insectifuge, fungicide.
Preparation. In infusion for insectifuge, 4 oz. of fresh plant material in 1 qt. boiling water. Filter when cool and use full strength. In fermented extract, 2 lbs. of fresh leaves and terminals in 2.5 gal. of water, diluted to 10%, against mildew on potatoes.

Common elderberry (Sambucus nigra). Large shrub to small tree. 
Active ingredients. Sambucine.
Action. Powerful repellant; fungicide.
Preparation. In decoction, 2 lbs. of leaves soaked for 24 hours in 2.5 gal. of water, then boiled for 30 minutes. Spray undiluted against aphids, beetles, caterpillars. In fermented extract, use 2 lbs. fresh leaves in 2.5 gal. of water. Use undiluted against shelf fungus infections on trees.



Tansy (Tanacetum vulgare). Perennial plant (invasive in sandy soils).
Active ingredients. Not studied.
Action. Insectifuge, insecticide, fungicide against rust and mildew.
Preparation. In fermented extract, 2 lbs. of fresh plant material in 2.5 gal. of water. Use nondiluted against cabbage fly. In infusion, 1 oz. of flowers in 1 qt. of boiling water. Filter when cool and spray undiluted against aphids, mildew, and rust. Caution: don't throw residues on compost as tansy inhibits its breakdown.

This season, why not experiment with this new (old) dimension of organic treatments? It's not only we humans who stand to benefit from medicinal herbs. The power of plants can come to the rescue of fellow plants as well!

plants to the rescue of plants


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## Da Almighty Jew (Sep 19, 2011)

hey matt, this pics are from one of my girls in the 4th week flower, any idea what is wrong with them?


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 19, 2011)

Phosphorus and magnesium is what I'm seeing. Mostly Mg, and be careful with the P because the plant will take that up in lieu of Mg.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 19, 2011)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> View attachment 1794771View attachment 1794770hey matt, this pics are from one of my girls in the 4th week flower, any idea what is wrong with them?


yeah, I agree with wolverine. Mg def is super common. Can I ask what you are feeding? Any calmag in there?


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## Da Almighty Jew (Sep 19, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> yeah, I agree with wolverine. Mg def is super common. Can I ask what you are feeding? Any calmag in there?


I use ro water with botanicare cal mag
floranova bloom
floralicious,
florablend, 
pro-tekt silicon
earth juice hi brix molasses. 
diamond nectar (humic acids)
epsom salts
ginormous
big up powder
snowstorm.
(not using any enzymes right now.)

definetly not all at the same time.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 21, 2011)

Chernobyl - vegan organic


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## cannawizard (Sep 21, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Chernobyl - vegan organic


*i hate you..


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## Da Almighty Jew (Sep 26, 2011)

Hey Matt, seen your tip in high times this month, big ups big ups  I got a quick question about enzymes. How long do you use them for? I use multi-zen.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 27, 2011)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> Hey Matt, seen your tip in high times this month, big ups big ups  I got a quick question about enzymes. How long do you use them for? I use multi-zen.


Hey thanks. I'm just using hygrozyme, and using it from a few weeks after rooting until the last two weeks (or so). I also add some to my reused soil mix, as it sits.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Sep 27, 2011)

Congrats on the quote you got in high times!  As far as zymes go, have you ever had experience using mayan microzyme? I just recently received a sample from a local grow shop and was curious as what you had to say. Since you are the Zyme Professor


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## Matt Rize (Sep 27, 2011)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> Congrats on the quote you got in high times!  As far as zymes go, have you ever had experience using mayan microzyme? I just recently received a sample from a local grow shop and was curious as what you had to say. Since you are the Zyme Professor


I've been using mayan for a long time. Its an inoculant that gets brewed like compost tea, not a -zyme, friggin mislabeling in this industry is a joke. Use it early, once or twice.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Sep 28, 2011)

Okay thanks man! Since it is an inaculant rather then enzymes, I don't have to worry about a negative combination of using hygrozyme with Mayan? I'm starting to google now but it's easier hearing it from the "professor."


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## Matt Rize (Sep 28, 2011)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> Okay thanks man! Since it is an inaculant rather then enzymes, I don't have to worry about a negative combination of using hygrozyme with Mayan? I'm starting to google now but it's easier hearing it from the "professor."


They mayan is a brewed inoculant tea. Do not mix anything into this tea or you risk killing off the life you've just brewed. Hygrozyme goes with your other nutes. Mayan is watered in alone, like any compost tea.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Sep 28, 2011)

That is what i have been doing. Thanks for the clarification. The only thing I add to the tea before I start the brewing process is some molasses. From my understanding the Mayan feeds on the molasses. Thanks again man.


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## Matt Rize (Sep 30, 2011)

vegan organic Vortex


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## hazorazo (Sep 30, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> vegan organic Vortex


You sick fuck! LOL! Nice fucking pics! I am running a batch of hash here in a couple weeks, that I hope will at least resemble yours.....haha! Wish me luck! Thanks for all the glorious hash and nug porn you provide!


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## Matt Rize (Oct 4, 2011)

Went on Cannabis Cuts with Deejay Wiid. Mutiny Radio. We talk politics, hash, trimming, and outdoor harvest season. 

My best quote from the show:
"whoa she's naked..... and sticky"
http://podcasts.pcrcollective.org/CannabisCuts/CannabisCuts-20111004.mp3

I come on about 17:30 minutes into the show.


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## Samwell Seed Well (Oct 4, 2011)

A few quick questions guys

Also I hear HPK from Roots organics is alot better then the pk13/14 i use now from Canna can anyone confirm these results

Anyone used nitrozeme 
*the pure organic growth enhancer?*

http://www.growthtechnology.com/nitrozyme.asp

or ecklonia kelp
http://www.4hydro.com/nutrients/eckloniaKelpStim.asp

or Humagic
http://www.hendrikusorganics.com/soilamendments.php


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## NightbirdX (Oct 5, 2011)

Shit looks good Matt. Keep it up. 

@Samwell: I use HPK in my grow. I sub'd it for my Budswell at week 5. I am also using it again at week 6.5 in a small feed (1/2-1gal depending on pot size,) to give the plants an extra boost as they finish. I flush after this. 

HPK is organic. pk13/14 is chemical. Be sure you are sure what you are mixing and switching before you botch your grow. 

Nitrozyme is "mostly" organic. I used it for a while. I wasn't really impressed with it. I switched to Biothrive Green. I like its results better.


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## NightbirdX (Oct 5, 2011)

Question about Plushberry, Matt. I am running it right now. I started 10, 6 made it. All of them are female. 3 to a friend 3 to me. I ended up getting a pretty wide variety out of my 3. One squat indica, one hybrid, one taller Sativa. How long did it take to finish for you? Anything to look for specifically? Keeper or no? I am pretty impressed so far. They have been very vigorous, but also producing very stout firm branches. I am about a week from flipping them. I can't wait to see how they flower and hope to get some nice colors, but wouldn't mind getting a chron green variation either. >


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## Matt Rize (Oct 5, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Question about Plushberry, Matt. I am running it right now. I started 10, 6 made it. All of them are female. 3 to a friend 3 to me. I ended up getting a pretty wide variety out of my 3. One squat indica, one hybrid, one taller Sativa. How long did it take to finish for you? Anything to look for specifically? Keeper or no? I am pretty impressed so far. They have been very vigorous, but also producing very stout firm branches. I am about a week from flipping them. I can't wait to see how they flower and hope to get some nice colors, but wouldn't mind getting a chron green variation either. >


I would let them flower at least 8 weeks. I look for non-herm, that's number one. After that, I kept two phenos, a pink and a purple. I'm running them side by side right now.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Oct 5, 2011)

The link on Cannabis Cuts won't load. You have another link?


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## Samwell Seed Well (Oct 5, 2011)

thank you nightbird1 i will look at biothrive and will try my best to maintain the organic standard

also i will throw some pics up here and there to show an update

ill be using primarily primordial solutions and bio bizz line . .. . .


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## Matt Rize (Oct 5, 2011)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> The link on Cannabis Cuts won't load. You have another link?


links works for me. here it is in full url: http://podcasts.pcrcollective.org/CannabisCuts/CannabisCuts-20111004.mp3


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## NightbirdX (Oct 6, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I would let them flower at least 8 weeks. I look for non-herm, that's number one. After that, I kept two phenos, a pink and a purple. I'm running them side by side right now.


I have a pretty standard 60 day regimen that produces some amazing organic NYC and Bubba Kush. I'm gonna start on that regimen and tweak. Non herm is for sure number 1. No trannies in my harem, lol. Thanks for the tips.


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## veen (Oct 7, 2011)

Hey Matt

I was wondering about your thoughts on using a veganic nute line such as 'general organics' with straight coco coir? Would treating it like hydro by handwatering to runoff daily work the same as a soilless media mix that is handwatered periodically? I have grown in straight coco for 4 years now with synthetic/mineral nutrients. This is all new to me but am extremely interested. 
Any links, info or answers to my specific question would be AWESOME.
PEace


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## Matt Rize (Oct 8, 2011)

veen said:


> Hey Matt
> 
> I was wondering about your thoughts on using a veganic nute line such as 'general organics' with straight coco coir? Would treating it like hydro by handwatering to runoff daily work the same as a soilless media mix that is handwatered periodically? I have grown in straight coco for 4 years now with synthetic/mineral nutrients. This is all new to me but am extremely interested.
> Any links, info or answers to my specific question would be AWESOME.
> PEace


I would advise against running any organic line in straight coco. I've heard of issues, but have not tried this. My mix has coco in it, but also lots of other stuff. If you want to run coco as your grow media there are nute lines designed for that, but they are not organic. Veganics has worked best for me in a diverse potting mix with a good amount of amending and supplementation.


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## NightbirdX (Oct 8, 2011)

I personally had terrible results in coco and ended up retransplanting into organic soil. I wrote canna about this and they said that their bio line was absolutely not compatible with coco and if you wanted to use coco, then just use the coco a + b nutrient line.


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## Matt Rize (Oct 16, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> I personally had terrible results in coco and ended up retransplanting into organic soil. I wrote canna about this and they said that their bio line was absolutely not compatible with coco and if you wanted to use coco, then just use the coco a + b nutrient line.


Thats whats up. Same fail for me when trying coconot (redwood bark). Organic soil all the way. I find my biocanna works better with extra micros and calmag in the mix, in the form of earth worm castings and dolomite lime.


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## veen (Oct 16, 2011)

Thanks guys, I think I might wait a round until I start up in soil for the first time. Matt- what do you think of Subcools super soil, I was thinking of starting a batch up to 'cook' for a few days as said in directions for the mix. Or do you have some recipes that might work better?


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## Matt Rize (Oct 16, 2011)

veen said:


> Thanks guys, I think I might wait a round until I start up in soil for the first time. Matt- what do you think of Subcools super soil, I was thinking of starting a batch up to 'cook' for a few days as said in directions for the mix. Or do you have some recipes that might work better?


The recipe depends on how you want to grow. Sub's super is a good way to go. I use a less amended mix and some bottled nutes. Many folks just use a bagged potting mix and feed with bottled nutes full time. What do you want to do?


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## Pendragon (Oct 19, 2011)

veen said:


> Hey Matt
> 
> I was wondering about your thoughts on using a veganic nute line such as 'general organics' with straight coco coir? Would treating it like hydro by handwatering to runoff daily work the same as a soilless media mix that is handwatered periodically? I have grown in straight coco for 4 years now with synthetic/mineral nutrients. This is all new to me but am extremely interested.
> Any links, info or answers to my specific question would be AWESOME.
> PEace


First run with GO 80/20 coco /perlite (well flushed perlite). So far it is looking like the best grow yet, plants are not stretching and they are super stinky, this Agent Orange smells like cream soda and jack daniels. 30 ish days.

Sorry piss poor photo


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## Matt Rize (Oct 19, 2011)

testing...

did the video embed?

guess not... dabs anyone?


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## UFEELIT? (Oct 19, 2011)

Hey has anyone tried these bio thrive grow/bloom nutrients and how are they??? feed back would be great =D?


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 19, 2011)

UFEELIT? said:


> Hey has anyone tried these bio thrive grow/bloom nutrients and how are they??? feed back would be great =D?


If you read this here thread, you'll find much info on that very nutrient line. Also, if you use the search function there are several other threads dedicated to that line. I use it, it's great stuff. You don't have to pH anything, just give it and go...


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## mcone (Oct 20, 2011)

Alright, so after 2 weeks of reading I reached the end.
I am growing in super soil, using ACT, Hygrozyme, and Fulvic acid.

In the past I fed hygrozyme with plain water, fed the MadFarmer NUTS with my nutrients, then mixed a tea, and started over with plain water and hygrozyme. 
Should I be mixing the hygrozyme with my fulvic, with my macros and micros in my nutrient solution ?

I do Feed, Tea, Water, so if I can add the hygrozyme or fulvic in with the tea or water feeding it would help spread out the things I am giving to my girls..


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## Matt Rize (Oct 20, 2011)

mcone said:


> Alright, so after 2 weeks of reading I reached the end.
> I am growing in super soil, using ACT, Hygrozyme, and Fulvic acid.
> 
> In the past I fed hygrozyme with plain water, fed the MadFarmer NUTS with my nutrients, then mixed a tea, and started over with plain water and hygrozyme.
> ...


I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. I think you can just alternate between teas with fulvic, and hygrozyme.


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## Matt Rize (Oct 20, 2011)

Kathy Curtis said:


> Is its good for immunodeficient individuals?


Is what good for immunodeficient people?... marijuana? I would say yes. In general cannabinoids, the biologically active stuff in marijuana, are good for everyone, but please be more specific. 

First off I just want to say welome to rollitup.org. My name is matt rize, I work and teach in the medical cannabis field in california. I'm no legal scholar or doctor, but I'll do my best to answer any questions you have. Feel free to send my a private message once you have enough posts.


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## mcone (Oct 20, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. I think you can just alternate between teas with fulvic, and hygrozyme.


Ok let me try and re-ask the question more coherently since InI havnt been smoking bubble in the last 20 minutes this time around, hehe

InI have started using hygrozyme and fulvic acid in my organic grow.

InI am worried about burning or stunting my plants by adding both of these products when InI apply my full strength feeding with nutrients.

SO here is my question, profess_and _matt;

To achieve the maximum benefit from these products is it nessecary to add both these items (fulvic and hygrozyme) with the nutrient application or can InI 
A) Add them with the plain watering 
B) Add them with the Bountea feeding
C) maybe its better to use a little hygrozyme in every mix, or maybe that is how I should apply the fulvic..

InI have no idea what the best way to integrate them into my schedule is and if they should even be used in the same application. The madfarmer NUTS says use with every watering, bout that seems sketchy. Please advise bredren.
Thanks 
Peace


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## mcone (Oct 20, 2011)

As far as the broad spectrum immunodeficient question at hand,
I propose that because of the believed lower heavy metal (not music) content (matt might have facts here) that veganics would certainly be much better for someone who's immune system is already down and out than cannabis that has been pumped with chemicals because those chem residues are just more the body has to deal with, either smoked or ingested.

Peace


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## Matt Rize (Oct 20, 2011)

mcone said:


> Ok let me try and re-ask the question more coherently since InI havnt been smoking bubble in the last 20 minutes this time around, hehe
> 
> InI have started using hygrozyme and fulvic acid in my organic grow.
> 
> ...


I would feel good adding some fulvic to your teas, at the end of brewing, but not hygrozyme. I would add the -zymes separately from the teas, with your plain waterings. You really can use lots of the fulvics and humics without any side affects.


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## Matt Rize (Oct 20, 2011)

mcone said:


> As far as the broad spectrum immunodeficient question at hand,
> I propose that because of the believed lower heavy metal (not music) content (matt might have facts here) that veganics would certainly be much better for someone who's immune system is already down and out than cannabis that has been pumped with chemicals because those chem residues are just more the body has to deal with, either smoked or ingested.
> 
> Peace


Yes, if the question is about organic/veganic marijuana versus chemically grown marijuana, I would say the organic is much better for us, especially for immunocompromised people.


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## NightbirdX (Oct 20, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> I would feel good adding some fulvic to your teas, at the end of brewing, but not hygrozyme. I would add the -zymes separately from the teas, with your plain waterings. You really can use lots of the fulvics and humics without any side affects.


So I have been adding Humega in on my "flush" weeks. Basically, I feed for 2-3weeks and then do a light flush and reinocculation. Should I maybe add Humega in during my feed cycles to help break down what is being fed, or use it on a flush cycle to eat what is left over?


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## Matt Rize (Oct 21, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> So I have been adding Humega in on my "flush" weeks. Basically, I feed for 2-3weeks and then do a light flush and reinocculation. Should I maybe add Humega in during my feed cycles to help break down what is being fed, or use it on a flush cycle to eat what is left over?


The humega helps make what is already in your nutes more available to the plants. I use humic/fulvic all the time.


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## NightbirdX (Oct 21, 2011)

Good to know. I was thinking of just amending my soil with some Ancient Forest. I try to amend everything but nutes in my soilless run. Do you think a healthy dose of Ancient Forest would give enough humic to take it out of my feeding regimen?


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## Matt Rize (Oct 21, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Good to know. I was thinking of just amending my soil with some Ancient Forest. I try to amend everything but nutes in my soilless run. Do you think a healthy dose of Ancient Forest would give enough humic to take it out of my feeding regimen?


 Possibly, Im not sure how high the humic levels are in the Ancient Forest. It wont hurt thats for sure


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## malignant (Oct 21, 2011)

i learned the hard way about humic acid...


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## NightbirdX (Oct 21, 2011)

Which was?


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## Afka (Oct 21, 2011)

Only use very minute doses of humic acid. You will burn the shit out of your plants as it's a very powerful chelator amongst its other functions.


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## UFEELIT? (Oct 21, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> If you read this here thread, you'll find much info on that very nutrient line. Also, if you use the search function there are several other threads dedicated to that line. I use it, it's great stuff. You don't have to pH anything, just give it and go...


Thank you very much this is my second grow, and the first time I had regular seeds that did not go female unfortunatly 10/10 were males and after arguing with the seed company for about 3 days they finally gave me credit towards a new purchase... they wouldnt even send me replacements so never the less they wont ever get my money again thats for sure... attitude is faster, cheaper, more discreet, and actually sells seeds that work...

p.s. dont order seeds from KIND SEED CO.


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## Matt Rize (Oct 21, 2011)

If you've been following, something effed up happens to my garden every time I leave town. If its not over watering its under. And why would he touch my timers!?!?!? 

Here's my leaving town game plan...
1) shut down the veg room and put my moms in the big room with my veg plants. One room, KISS.
2) transplanted from 1 to 5 gallon pots and watered them in. 
3) sprayed emulsified neem oil
4) turned the temps down and moved the lights up.
5) watered moms to saturation. 

I should have it so my caretaker doesn't even have to water  
Now I have to convince him to not touch anything lol


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## Bird Gymnastics (Oct 21, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> If you've been following, something effed up happens to my garden every time I leave town. If its not over watering its under. And why would he touch my timers!?!?!?
> 
> Here's my leaving town game plan...
> 1) shut down the veg room and put my moms in the big room with my veg plants. One room, KISS.
> ...


You should consider yourself lucky enough to trust someone with yoUr babies. It seems to me every time I have left a friend to take care of my garden I come back to something...good luck my friend and keep on growing!


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## hazorazo (Oct 23, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> If you've been following, something effed up happens to my garden every time I leave town. If its not over watering its under. And why would he touch my timers!?!?!?
> 
> Here's my leaving town game plan...
> 1) shut down the veg room and put my moms in the big room with my veg plants. One room, KISS.
> ...


I came back from DMB Caravan, and my veg lights were all fucked up........sometimes I think the guests "take a tour" and look at what you have programmed, and then fuck it up somehow.......one of my timers can be fucked up very easily if you do not pay attention.....I just never touch it after it is set! haha......No one will ever make your ladies feel like you do!


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## malignant (Oct 23, 2011)

Matt would you grow in the same dug hole outdoor for back to back years?


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## Matt Rize (Oct 24, 2011)

malignant said:


> Matt would you grow in the same dug hole outdoor for back to back years?


Yes, and I would heavily amend the soil to replenish the nutrients used the year before. You can top dress, but its best to dig out and mix the amendments, then backfill.


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## malignant (Oct 24, 2011)

Cool thanks!


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## baldhead (Oct 26, 2011)

Pretty sure I read Hygrozyme is made by a select strain of Aspergillus Niger, grown on Barley.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 10, 2011)

My vegan Vortex ice water extract tested 60% THC, my highest to date and extremely high for any ice water extract. Veganics FTW! I'm sticking with the vegan organic indoor for sure, things are dialed in now. I'll post up some garden pics later.

Vortex vegan organic by Matt Rize, on Flickr


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## Matt Rize (Nov 11, 2011)

10/28 Plushberry

plushberry 10/28 by Matt Rize


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## Matt Rize (Nov 11, 2011)

11/11 Plushberry




[/url]
plushberry 11/11 by Matt Rize, on Flickr[/IMG]


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## farmer2424 (Nov 11, 2011)

lookin good matt. u runnin 600's in there? is that a flood table they're on?


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## Matt Rize (Nov 11, 2011)

farmer2424 said:


> lookin good matt. u runnin 600's in there? is that a flood table they're on?


yeah, 3 600s, or 1800 watts. With my veg tent added I'm under the 2000 watts, my lawyer has advised me to not go above that number considering what I do for a living (ice water extraction).

Also, yes, I grow on top of hydrotables, it just makes life so much easier. I like to rinse down the trays after watering. The grow trays are on custom built frames with oversized wheels so I can move them easily.


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## MTmed (Nov 11, 2011)

Matt, what ratio of neem cake do you use in your mix? Great thread...best on the webs. thanks


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## Matt Rize (Nov 11, 2011)

MTmed said:


> Matt, what ratio of neem cake do you use in your mix? Great thread...best on the webs. thanks


About a tablespoon per pot. I'm pretty loose with measurements. Maybe a cup for 30 gallons of potting soil mix.


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## SketchyGrower (Nov 14, 2011)

Just reading threw this thread and wanted to chim in... Iv used the biocanna as a stand alone. Probably not the best harvest weight of all time and had it fairshare of deff. but, the taste.... OMG the taste! I stop using it for the fact I was cash cropping at the time but, now that's over iv found my self craving that ridicules tasting smoke again.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 14, 2011)

SketchyGrower said:


> Just reading threw this thread and wanted to chim in... Iv used the biocanna as a stand alone. Probably not the best harvest weight of all time and had it fairshare of deff. but, the taste.... OMG the taste! I stop using it for the fact I was cash cropping at the time but, now that's over iv found my self craving that ridicules tasting smoke again.


Thanks for the input. That sounds similar to everyone's experience. I've found that I can get decent yields with heavy supplementation to the biocanna line, but that supplementation changes the way the flowers smoke. It would only make sense that quantity and quality are not one in the same. You can have less flowers with more resin, or more flowers with less resin. But you can't have both. The ice water extract I make from my vegan garden are also on another level compared to synthetic or even organic extracts.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 14, 2011)

MTmed said:


> Matt, what ratio of neem cake do you use in your mix? Great thread...best on the webs. thanks


Neem cake is from http://www.neemresource.com
I aslo use their neem oil and karanja oil, just sprayed emulsified oils today in fact, and took some picts to help show how I emulsify. I'll upload those in a few.


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## Samwell Seed Well (Nov 14, 2011)

heres a update of my organics they are in the front, with the canna coco line in back, the four on the outside in the front are fueled with these





I know this isnt vegan organic, lol, maybe i should remove my post, but the organics im using are doing way better then my coco and canna plants so im pretty happy


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## Matt Rize (Nov 15, 2011)

No worries. I hear good things about the BioBizz line. It used to be partnered with General Organics. What else are you using?


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## Samwell Seed Well (Nov 15, 2011)

Some, well most of the Primordial line which is a fert and a salt mitigater(sea green) or decomposer can remember exactly how it works , and a root stabilizer and then a bloom additive and the other products im using or humagic from hendrix and ecklonia kelp and Sugar peaks veg formula, i know this seem like a lot of products for organic grow, but im running 3 different solutions with a different mix but i assure you my PPMS are low on all mix's except the bio bizz line and seem to be liking the ferts a lot

here are some links, i think some of these might not meet the organic specification like the nitrozeme i spray twice a week . . . . . .IDK, but i think you will be impressed with the Primordial solutions line*

http://www.hendrikusorganics.com/soilamendments.php

http://www.beneficialbiologics.com/

http://www.4hydro.com/nutrients/eckloniaKelpStim.asp

http://www.biobizz.nl/*


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## SketchyGrower (Nov 15, 2011)

Any thoughts on these products?
Cutting edge sugaree (omri listed)
Tropical organics banana mana( not sure on it's certifications)

I get what your brewing with the extracts  I'm more a joint smoker.... Not that I don't enjoy a good extraction from time to time. I think if I could roll a hash joint properly I'd have more interest in hash making..haha.I'm only on like page 40 something so far. Hope to find some interesting stuff hidden within.


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## moash (Nov 15, 2011)

I've never heard anybody say that would rather smoke a joint than hash.....
Can you get hash???


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## Matt Rize (Nov 15, 2011)

SketchyGrower said:


> Any thoughts on these products?
> Cutting edge sugaree (omri listed)
> Tropical organics banana mana( not sure on it's certifications)
> 
> I get what your brewing with the extracts  I'm more a joint smoker.... Not that I don't enjoy a good extraction from time to time. I think if I could roll a hash joint properly I'd have more interest in hash making..haha.I'm only on like page 40 something so far. Hope to find some interesting stuff hidden within.


Cutting Edge is a local company for me, they are garbage in imo. Bannana manna in not organic, its a strange product that I would not use. Ganja plants have their own natural smells, and they don't need help producing terpenes.


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## SketchyGrower (Nov 15, 2011)

Get, no... make yes... And it's not that I don't enjoy hash, just like the art of rolling... Lol. if I could roll those hash joint/papers I see on YouTube... Just can never get it all to stay together with out cracking as I start rolling it.


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## SketchyGrower (Nov 15, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Cutting Edge is a local company for me, they are garbage in imo. Bannana manna in not organic, its a strange product that I would not use. Ganja plants have their own natural smells, and they don't need help producing terpenes.


thanks for the info Matt! I just got the cutting edge and banana from a friend that passed away and his wife let me have the remains of his nutrients these were among the left overs... Probably just store them with my (not in use product shelf) keep up the awesome thread Matt.


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## 'ome Grown (Nov 15, 2011)

I'm sorry if this has been posted before in the 140 pages of this thread. I have searched for an answer here and through Google and I have found conflicting answers - which to me means it really comes down to morals.

Are earth worm castings a part of vegan organics? Does Kyle Kushman consider them a part of vegan organics.

Personally as a vegan I do not have an issue with using worm castings. However, I wouldn't use worm castings that I knew were made from animal products (i.e. waste products from farms and slaughterhouses, i.e. manure and blood & bone).

What do you guys think?

Cheers


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## upthearsenal (Nov 15, 2011)

'ome Grown said:


> I'm sorry if this has been posted before in the 140 pages of this thread. I have searched for an answer here and through Google and I have found conflicting answers - which to me means it really comes down to morals.
> 
> Are earth worm castings a part of vegan organics? Does Kyle Kushman consider them a part of vegan organics.
> 
> ...


I think if you are cultivating your own you have nothing to worry about. I don't deal with bagged castings but I have in the past and they were okay. It was a local company that printed the contents that were fed to the worms, don't know if that's the standard but for any bagged castings I'd do some research before using them if it bothers you.


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## ataxia (Nov 15, 2011)

'ome Grown said:


> I'm sorry if this has been posted before in the 140 pages of this thread. I have searched for an answer here and through Google and I have found conflicting answers - which to me means it really comes down to morals.
> 
> Are earth worm castings a part of vegan organics? Does Kyle Kushman consider them a part of vegan organics.
> 
> ...


Matt would know the answer better than me, but, from what i've read and watched.. he claimed (if i'm not mistaken) that castings are part of veganics. Kushman that is...


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## Matt Rize (Nov 15, 2011)

ataxia said:


> Matt would know the answer better than me, but, from what i've read and watched.. he claimed (if i'm not mistaken) that castings are part of veganics. Kushman that is...


I'm not sure where Kushman stands on earth worm castings. I'm totally down with them if they were fed an all vegetable diet (the good castings are). My potting mix right now is about 10 to 15% EWC. Its the good poop lol, because its not poop at all. Worms don't have stomachs, let alone 8 stomachs like a cow. Its really up to personal choice.


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## ataxia (Nov 16, 2011)

was trying to post the video of the interview with Jorge and KK ... according to Kushman he claims (in the interview) "the only thing that qualifies as veganics <as far as animal products> are worm castings that have to be sourced" ...in any case ...just wanted to clarify the ? from 'ome grown.
unfortunately i'm not using organics or veganics at the moment but i'm doing my home work.
i was loving your thread on soiless organics matt until dude fucked up that whole party.


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## Perish21 (Nov 21, 2011)

Thanks for all the good info so far but i had a couple questions of my own. I've been using flora nova, flora nectar, floralicious plus, dynagro protek, and botainicare cal mag. I was wondering what you thought of using this microbe tea mixture every other feeding. I was thinking of using earth worm castings as well but i wanted to hear some suggestions. 
4tbs-Earth juice hi-brix molasses
1tbs-general organics bio weed
1tbs-Mykos
2tbs-ful power fulvic acid


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## Matt Rize (Nov 21, 2011)

Perish21 said:


> Thanks for all the good info so far but i had a couple questions of my own. I've been using flora nova, flora nectar, floralicious plus, dynagro protek, and botainicare cal mag. I was wondering what you thought of using this microbe tea mixture every other feeding. I was thinking of using earth worm castings as well but i wanted to hear some suggestions.
> 4tbs-Earth juice hi-brix molasses
> 1tbs-general organics bio weed
> 1tbs-Mykos
> 2tbs-ful power fulvic acid


That recipe is too high in molasses (assuming that is per gallon). 
Earthworm castings are my jam. About 10% of my potting mix is EWC.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 21, 2011)

ataxia said:


> was trying to post the video of the interview with Jorge and KK ... according to Kushman he claims (in the interview) "the only thing that qualifies as veganics <as far as animal products> are worm castings that have to be sourced" ...in any case ...just wanted to clarify the ? from 'ome grown.
> unfortunately i'm not using organics or veganics at the moment but i'm doing my home work.
> i was loving your thread on soiless organics matt until dude fucked up that whole party.


haha, thank, haters gonna hate right. I havnt checked that thread out for a long time. 
What Kushman claims is straight from me. Just sayin'


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## Perish21 (Nov 21, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> That recipe is too high in molasses (assuming that is per gallon).
> Earthworm castings are my jam. About 10% of my potting mix is EWC.


Yes it is per gallon and thanks for the feedback but what would you suggest? If it's to high in molasses should i cut it down to 2 tbs?


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## Matt Rize (Nov 21, 2011)

Perish21 said:


> Yes it is per gallon and thanks for the feedback but what would you suggest? If it's to high in molasses should i cut it down to 2 tbs?


What is Compost Tea? by Tim Wilson of http://www.microbeorganics.com

Very simply stated Compost Tea is a water-based environment wherein beneficial microorganisms are extracted from compost or vermicompost (worm compost) and multiplied by the millions and billions. Some form of agitation breaks the microbes free from the compost and they multiply because food, like black strap molasses, fish hydrolysate, kelp meal, humic acid, etc. has been added to the water, which at least one type of microbe digests. When one or more type of microbe begins to multiply in response to the food, other microbes respond to this growth and begin to consume these initial microbes and multiply in turn and so on and so on. For example the initial microbes are usually bacteria which are food for protozoa so the protozoa multiply in response to the bacteria. The end result is a functional feeding cycle or microbial nutrient cycle. I refer to this as a functional microbial consortia. This develops over a period of 12 to 72 hours or more and is then applied to the soil and plants. In the soil there are a number of organisms which function in basically the same nutrient cycle and zone. Once again, simply stated, there are substances released from the roots of plants which feed bacteria (& archaea), again the bacteria/archaea become prey to the protozoa and the protozoa excrete substances which are available to the roots as nutrients (e.g. nitrogen) thus creating a feeding cycle. Other compost/soil microorganisms of great importance are fungi. Fungal hyphae, are long branching strands which grow through the soil and serve to; bind soil aggregates together, help retain moisture, store certain nutrients, provide a source of food to certain other microbes, provide pathways for nutrient and moisture delivery, decompose organic material and displace disease causing fungi. There are also other types of fungi which do not grow (to my knowledge) in compost or Compost Tea which form a direct symbiotic nutrient exchange relationship with roots. This sort of fungi is called mycorrhizal fungi and there are many different species. The major microorganisms at work in Compost Tea are bacteria, protozoa (flagellates, ciliates and amoebae) and fungal hyphae if present in your compost. It is best to have a wide diversity of each of these microbes present. There are higher order organisms like nematodes found in compost and soil and occasionally these are extracted into Compost Tea but they do not grow nor multiply in the tea. Of course in the soil there are many other contributors to the nutrient cycle, like insects, earthworms and other animals. In its totality this is often referred to as the soil food web.
He continues:
All life is in a symbiotic nutrient cycle even down to the microorganisms contained in our gut that assist us to digest certain foods. Life, consumption, excrement, death, decomposition, life. You are what you eat and the same applies to plants.

It has been discovered that aerated Compost Tea helps to ensure the multiplication of mostly aerobic microbes which are more desirable in this application. Plus the aeration provides the agitation necessary to dislodge the microbes from the compost. Therefore most Compost Tea machines or brewers, as they are commonly known, involve the introduction of air into the water and compost.

Many Compost Tea users and producers have begun examining their brews with microscopes to see the microbes present. This ensures that they have the desired microbes in the right numbers and diversity prior to applying the tea to soil and plants. I am fairly hopeful if not certain that in the future when someone purchases a Compost Tea brewer that the kit will include a microscope. It is the identification of what is going on in this tiny universe where I find my calling.
There is much more, but here is the end:
Using Compost Tea

The use of compost tea (CT) is one of the best ways to inoculate your soil with the beneficial microbes you wish to have for optimum health of your plants. It is also good if your supply of compost or vermicompost is limited, as it multiplies those microbes, we have been discussing, by the millions. Remember the protozoa I mentioned earlier? Well you can brew an aerated compost tea specifically to have a large population of protozoa, usually mostly flagellates. If you have a good quality compost or vermicompost, protozoa will already be present, often in a resting cyst. If you have an efficient aerated brewer you can pretty much count on having a high flagellate (protozoa) population combined with bacteria/archaea and fungal hyphae (not mycorrhizal) at 36 to 44 hours brew time (65 to 72 degrees F). If you have a microscope you can examine the CT periodically to be sure that the microbial population is optimum. The use of aerated compost tea also provides the opportunity to manipulate microbial populations for specific purposes by using various recipes and brew times. You may wish to have high bacterial or fungal numbers for pathogen/disease control or have soil or plants that require a higher population of a microbial type. I have a lot to learn yet of fungal species which can grow in compost tea so until I have learned to identify the species occurring I&#8217;m cautious about some of the tricks employed to stimulate fungal hyphae growth in compost. Better to count on good quality compost and vermicompost with natural occurring quantities and species of fungi and use known mycorrhizal and mushroom spores in the soil.

TEA RECIPE from Tim Wilson of www.microbeorganics.com

1 gallon = 16 cups = 256 tablespoons

2.38% by volume compost or vermicompost (EWC) per gallon = .38 cups or around half a cup max or about 2 cups in 5 gallons max.

0.5 to 0.75% molasses by volume per gallon = 1.28 to 1.92 tablespoons per gallon. 0.75% is the maximum I use. It is a good bacterial and fungal food.

0.063% fish hydrolysate by volume per gallon = 0.16 tablespoon = 0.479 teaspoons or half a teaspoon

0.25% (max) kelpmeal by volume per gallon = 0.64 tablespoon or half a tablespoon


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## Matt Rize (Nov 21, 2011)

The above information is from a well known organic guru. He uses a slightly different recipe than you, but you can see the amount of molasses is 1 to 2 tablespoons per gallon. 

He uses compost instead of packed inoculants, I suggest you do the same, or at least use some compost in addition to the mykos.


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## Perish21 (Nov 21, 2011)

Well this would be my first attempt at making the tea i posted above. Just getting into the whole world of tea making so that's why i'm trying to start off fairly simple. I have access to some organic earth worm castings so that's what i'll use in conjunction with the mykos.


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## CollieMan1 (Nov 21, 2011)

Matt..what bulb spectrums (mh/hps) do you use in flowering and at what points do you transition your light spectrum?


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## Wolverine97 (Nov 21, 2011)

Perish21 said:


> Thanks for all the good info so far but i had a couple questions of my own. I've been using flora nova, flora nectar, floralicious plus, dynagro protek, and botainicare cal mag. I was wondering what you thought of using this microbe tea mixture every other feeding. I was thinking of using earth worm castings as well but i wanted to hear some suggestions.
> 4tbs-Earth juice hi-brix molasses
> 1tbs-general organics bio weed
> 1tbs-Mykos
> 2tbs-ful power fulvic acid


Also probably too much fulvic, depending on what you're using as your source.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 21, 2011)

CollieMan1 said:


> Matt..what bulb spectrums (mh/hps) do you use in flowering and at what points do you transition your light spectrum?


Yo big up di CollieMan1! One love idren.

I use a 400 and 600 MH to veg, then switch to two 600 MHs and a 600 HPS at 12/12. Then 2 HPS and 1 MH two weeks later. All HPS by 4-6 weeks into flower depending on the length of the cycle.


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## Sunbiz1 (Nov 21, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> The above information is from a well known organic guru. He uses a slightly different recipe than you, but you can see the amount of molasses is 1 to 2 tablespoons per gallon.
> 
> He uses compost instead of packed inoculants, I suggest you do the same, or at least use some compost in addition to the mykos.


I agree, learned the hard way on molasses last Summer on an in-ground. Although I was not using all of the components you are, I overdosed 2 plants with straight molasses tea which caused a N lockout. I lost about 40% of the fan leaves back in August before I could correct it. The threshold I found to be is about 1/4 cup per gal. Now I use your posted amount and only every other watering.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 21, 2011)

These girls need water!


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## CollieMan1 (Nov 21, 2011)

thanks bro!! this thread is killer too... SO much real information. im on my 4th vegan organic run now and id have to say its the only way to grow. my friends are starting to wonder why i wont smoke their buds any more....then they come over and dab my bubba and chem91 full melt and know why! you have no idea how dank and clean your information has made my buds!


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## Matt Rize (Nov 21, 2011)

CollieMan1 said:


> thanks bro!! this thread is killer too... SO much real information. im on my 4th vegan organic run now and id have to say its the only way to grow. my friends are starting to wonder why i wont smoke their buds any more....then they come over and dab my bubba and chem91 full melt and know why! you have no idea how dank and clean your information has made my buds!


Give thanks! Thats what I'm talking about. We here on this thread have created the newest breed of stoners. THE VEGAN SNOBS!


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## SFguy (Nov 21, 2011)

lmao mine is better cuz its veganig too..lol im usin gh veganic.. and they are soo stanky and frosty...


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## CollieMan1 (Nov 22, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Give thanks! Thats what I'm talking about. We here on this thread have created the newest breed of stoners. THE VEGAN SNOBS!


I think every stoner would be a vegan snob if they were smoking what we are smoking!


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## CollieMan1 (Nov 23, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Give thanks! Thats what I'm talking about. We here on this thread have created the newest breed of stoners. THE VEGAN SNOBS!


Ha I see you quoted me over on grasscity. Those guys don't seem to get it do they?


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## Matt Rize (Nov 23, 2011)

CollieMan1 said:


> Ha I see you quoted me over on grasscity. Those guys don't seem to get it do they?


LOL, yeah, haters gonna hate. Thats why I don't even try to post anything relevant over there. Big ups!


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## Bird Gymnastics (Nov 23, 2011)

So can I be considered a snob even though I'm not 100% veganic?? I am currently using roots organic soil with canna nute line. Have been seeing amazing results but still can't get that taste like I had with bioterra plus. Any news on when they should be back in stock?


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## Matt Rize (Nov 23, 2011)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> So can I be considered a snob even though I'm not 100% veganic?? I am currently using roots organic soil with canna nute line. Have been seeing amazing results but still can't get that taste like I had with bioterra plus. Any news on when they should be back in stock?


From what I can tell, its not coming back. I finally ran out from that palette I ordered. Do you mean Biocanna or Canna?


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## whitey78 (Nov 23, 2011)

I've finally made the decision to give veganics a try and started ordering the needed supplies a little at a time seeing I'm in the middle of one grow and and getting ready to start another where I wont be able to convert yet so I'm going to take my time and stock up on everything first. 

I have been reading about veganics here and there since it was featured in high times, when I read that I had just started growing using techniflora's RFS. So I understand the concept, but as far as me being able to properly source everything plant based on my own would be kinda tough, and as informative as that article was, I aint gonna lie...it was hard to understand, it seemed like they intentionally made it hard to understand, bio-films and all that shit, LOL...however the pics of kushmans buds made it a little easier to try and understand.

With the recent death of 2 people close to me under 50 from cancer this past week a day apart, it only makes sense to pay the extra $ to have the cleanest burning, best tasting smoke possible to me. One of those people that died I had worked with for 4-5 years and was pretty good friends with, I had started giving edibles to him from my first grow which I ran out of over a month ago, I only was able to hook him up twice before I ran out. He was not a "weed" person to begin with but it sucks he died waiting for my next batch. I gave the guy a half a sheet of super potent brownies (42 grams of mids from my first grow went into 2 boxes of brownies), the whole time I'm handing him the tray he was trying to tell me he wouldnt eat them and he doesnt like pot and all that shit...LOL A week later the dude was hooked on edibles, calling me like a crack fiend, but the best part is the dude was hungry and wanted to eat, that was a good feeling, at least I could give him that. The thing that scares me is I am living my life basically the same way this dude lived his but I'm 15 years younger....so I think its time I changed some things....starting with veganics is the start for me, the rest is going to take some work, LOL.... But in respect to those 2 people, I wish I had more bud on hand, veganic or not, who knows how much more it could have helped them, its sad how much of a wonder drug weed is, its a shame how the government makes us out to be criminals. However, I'll take that stamp in exchange for making others feel better, no problem. 

But aside from the announcement of trying it and the above ramble, my biggest problem is medium. So I decided to go with just straight coir and some rice hulls if I can find them, EWC's are a fairy tail in my area and I dont have the room where I live to make my own as I live in a city-ish area and I'm not going to save compost in my apartment or have a worm farm in my apartment (it stinks no?)....so I want to use basically just coco and the rice hulls, perlite if I cant get those but very little. But will that work ok with the canna bio and the rest of the stuff needed? 

Which leads me into my next Q?

Is my list alright? 

Canna bio line
cannazyme (do I need this as well as the other 2 zymes?)
hygrozyme (already have the pleasure of having my pockets fleeced for this)
Gen organics camg+ (already using this)
Techniflora's soluble seaweed (we got dat)
Techniflora thrive alive green 
humbolt bloom
humbolt mayan microzyme

Is there anything else I should be getting? Also, when do you incorporate the thrive alive, veg or bloom? or both? I used to use the TA red, but since have started using liquid karma, however I think once this bottle is empty, I'll move on to something different, if the TA green replaces the liquid karma I'll switch over to that.

As far as myco's, I picked up some humbolt myco madness or myco maximum, I cant remember which one I purchased recently as I've only used it on my last transplant which was awhile ago. I was wondering what kind of recommendations you guys have as far as that. I'm a new grower running botanicare pure blend pro as far as nutes, at the moment I use quantum1 for humic acid once a week (I stopped this past week, week 6-7 of bloom) kanga-roots and microbe brew from bushmaster, aka fox farms for added microbial life on top of the myco max at transplant. I was figuring theres definitely something better out there and you all would know what. I know its a loosing battle adding those to my chem nutes but I figure adding microbial life and enzymes has to be better than not adding it, no? But I was looking to make the jump to being 100% organic and decided veganics may be one step better..... either way.. I want to taste some veganic bud and the only way thats going to happen is by me growing it.

Anyhow, I appreciate letting me ramble as well as thank you for any input.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 23, 2011)

I'm going to take this one part at a time. Thanks for posting and welcome to RIU. 


whitey78 said:


> I've finally made the decision to give veganics a try and started ordering the needed supplies a little at a time seeing I'm in the middle of one grow and and getting ready to start another where I wont be able to convert yet so I'm going to take my time and stock up on everything first.
> 
> I have been reading about veganics here and there since it was featured in high times, when I read that I had just started growing using techniflora's RFS. So I understand the concept, but as far as me being able to properly source everything plant based on my own would be kinda tough, and as informative as that article was, I aint gonna lie...it was hard to understand, it seemed like they intentionally made it hard to understand, bio-films and all that shit, LOL...however the pics of kushmans buds made it a little easier to try and understand.


Yeah, I that was not my article. My sister Ava Rize wrote that with Kushman, but much of that article, ie Bio-Film, is concepts that I recently introduced Kushman to. If you would like explanations I can do that no worries. 



whitey78 said:


> With the recent death of 2 people close to me under 50 from cancer this past week a day apart, it only makes sense to pay the extra $ to have the cleanest burning, best tasting smoke possible to me. One of those people that died I had worked with for 4-5 years and was pretty good friends with, I had started giving edibles to him from my first grow which I ran out of over a month ago, I only was able to hook him up twice before I ran out. He was not a "weed" person to begin with but it sucks he died waiting for my next batch. I gave the guy a half a sheet of super potent brownies (42 grams of mids from my first grow went into 2 boxes of brownies), the whole time I'm handing him the tray he was trying to tell me he wouldnt eat them and he doesnt like pot and all that shit...LOL A week later the dude was hooked on edibles, calling me like a crack fiend, but the best part is the dude was hungry and wanted to eat, that was a good feeling, at least I could give him that. The thing that scares me is I am living my life basically the same way this dude lived his but I'm 15 years younger....so I think its time I changed some things....starting with veganics is the start for me, the rest is going to take some work, LOL.... But in respect to those 2 people, I wish I had more bud on hand, veganic or not, who knows how much more it could have helped them, its sad how much of a wonder drug weed is, its a shame how the government makes us out to be criminals. However, I'll take that stamp in exchange for making others feel better, no problem.


Yeah, cancer is a bitch. Its taken most of my family already. I was introduced to cannabis when my grandfather was going thru chemo. 



whitey78 said:


> But aside from the announcement of trying it and the above ramble, my biggest problem is medium. So I decided to go with just straight coir and some rice hulls if I can find them, EWC's are a fairy tail in my area and I dont have the room where I live to make my own as I live in a city-ish area and I'm not going to save compost in my apartment or have a worm farm in my apartment (it stinks no?)....so I want to use basically just coco and the rice hulls, perlite if I cant get those but very little. But will that work ok with the canna bio and the rest of the stuff needed?


I highly suggest not going with coco. A peat based, or better peat and coco based, organic potting mix is really what works best for bottle organics. Perlite is okay, I use it to make my mix lighter. The earth worm castings seem to really help me with micronutrient issues and can be replaced with compost. I've been mixing dolomite lime and some plant meals into my soil to pick up the slack in the biocanna line.



whitey78 said:


> Which leads me into my next Q?
> 
> Is my list alright?
> 
> ...


Looks all good to me. I also use a silica supplement called Pro-TeKt from Dyna Gro. I stopped using cannazym, they changed the formula and it has chem phosphates in it now. Liquid Karma won't hurt, good stuff. I use inoculants from www.BioAg.com

You sound like you got it all ready. I highly advise using humic and fulvic from BioAg, its quality. Another tip is mixing some neem cake into your potting soil. I get that at www.neemresource.com Don't forget the neem oil while you are at it. 



whitey78 said:


> As far as myco's, I picked up some humbolt myco madness or myco maximum, I cant remember which one I purchased recently as I've only used it on my last transplant which was awhile ago. I was wondering what kind of recommendations you guys have as far as that. I'm a new grower running botanicare pure blend pro as far as nutes, at the moment I use quantum1 for humic acid once a week (I stopped this past week, week 6-7 of bloom) kanga-roots and microbe brew from bushmaster, aka fox farms for added microbial life on top of the myco max at transplant. I was figuring theres definitely something better out there and you all would know what. I know its a loosing battle adding those to my chem nutes but I figure adding microbial life and enzymes has to be better than not adding it, no? But I was looking to make the jump to being 100% organic and decided veganics may be one step better..... either way.. I want to taste some veganic bud and the only way thats going to happen is by me growing it.
> 
> Anyhow, I appreciate letting me ramble as well as thank you for any input.


I'm sure the fellers will have some other input for you. rizeup!


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## Bird Gymnastics (Nov 23, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> From what I can tell, its not coming back. I finally ran out from that palette I ordered. Do you mean Biocanna or Canna?


Ha ha a little high  Biocanna is what I meant to say. Right now I am just running bio vega, bio Flores, bio boost. GO cal/mag, Mayan micro, hygrozyme, b52, Fulpower humic and technaflora kelp. Anything else that you would recommend or stir me away from please do so. Ha ha it has been working well but damn I wish I had sme more biocanna Bioterra plus! If you are interested in sharing the wealth, I am game to pay you close to double for it  I know how good that stuff really works because of you


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## 'ome Grown (Nov 23, 2011)

Are there any vegan growers/smokers out there? Seems that people are really finding out that by making your plant vegan they are healthier and make better product in many ways. Yet even those that are veganic growers still feed themselves nutrients that are not in the healthiest form...we all know that someone on a well planned omnivorous, vegetarian or vegan diet can be healthy, meaning all the nutrients needed by the body are obtainable on all diets...

What I am trying to find an answer to is if you follow veganics because it produces a better end product why don't you do the same with YOUR diet? This thought of mine was sparked by Whitey78's comment.



> With the recent death of 2 people close to me under 50 from cancer this past week a day apart, it only makes sense to pay the extra $ to have the cleanest burning, best tasting smoke possible to me.


If two people close to me died from cancer I would try and be as healthy as possible. Both my mother and uncle have been diagnosed with MS. 2 close family friends have been diagnosed with it recently as well. Some say it is heretic others say environmental. I believe that nothing is certain so I am trying to be as healthy as possible. I have stopped drinking as much alcohol and basically only have a glass of red wine with dinner. I read that consuming milk has been linked to MS so I researched the milk industry as well as what nutritional benefit milk gives the body - found out that it does have nutritional value that we need, however it also has hormones, scores of allergens, fats and cholesterol that aren't present in the other forms of the nutrition found in milk (brocolli has calcium in it - who would have thought?). Then I found out about the dairy industry and bobby cows and basically went vegan shortly after that.

I then researched what sort of treatment is available for MS at the moment. My mother takes a beta interferon injection every second day...and having seen her at her worst I wouldn't put even my enemies through something like that. Marijuana had been reported to help with the symptoms of MS and then I downloaded several documentaries on marijuana. That is when all the myths that I was led to believe got debunked. WOW are we lied to something shockingly! It is an embarrassment. Especially to think that there are sick people out there that don't take this medicine because of the preconceptions that they have...

So I am a vegan as a preventative matter and am learning as much as I can about how to grow medicinal marijuana just in case...

And to tell you the truth, the hardest thing to give up was the habitual side of eating meat etc. Not eating meat or dairy/eggs doesn't make my life an less enjoyable. To be honest, I am happier and healthier being vegan...

Just look at your plants...

PS: sorry if through text if that came out rude or provocative...not my intention...happy to discuss veganics beyond growing with anyone.

Cheers


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## whitey78 (Nov 24, 2011)

Thanks for the response. As far as not understanding that article, I meant at the time I had next to zero growing experience, I think I had my first batch of seedlings planted and not a whole lot else so I didnt know shit other than what my ed rosenthal grow book said so I may as well have been reading an article on nuclear physics at that point in time, what a difference a year or how ever long its been makes...

I just picked up a gallon of protekt a few weeks ago, I think everyone across every grow type uses the dyna-gro product now. However it sucks to hear about coco not being as good as I was hoping it to be for veganix. That is the one thing I can get from the one and only grow shop in town and I can walk out with it in bags somewhat discreetly. The only potting mixes I can get are fox farms happy frog, light warrior and ocean forest all @ the low low price of $25 a bag, other than that roots basic mix is available once in a while but I've never used it as the grow shop always talks me out of it. Its in the camo looking bags I think? I've been using a mix of all 3 of the FF mixes with added coco to cut down the strength of the ocean forest, its been ok so far I just wish the mixes were a little more......mixed I want to say. I usually do the FF's mixes bag/bag/bag and a brick of botanicare coco, then I'll throw in some perlite. What I wanted to do was stop using a bagged mix altogether, when I was mixing the bags of FF soil up, I kept finding pieces of hydroton in the soil. I had no idea FF sold recycled mix, not that I object to recycling soil, but I cant see paying $25 a bag to take a chance on getting some kind of insect larva or some roots from someone elses grow so I wanted to start using straight coco and then let that roll into me making my own mix, sounds like I got a start going though. 

If I'm not mistaken the FF mixes (except light warrior) all have guano in it right? So a peat/coco mix is the way to go huh?....alrighty then......either I'll work out what I need by ordering it online a little at a time or I'll wait until spring time and go to the burbs and see what kind of mixes the nursery's and non-home depot/lowes garden centers have. The only reason its tough for me to order large things online is because I have to have all my shit sent to a PO box in a mailboxes etc... place and in a non-legal state people look at you funny when you get a package that says XXXX's indoor weed gardening.com or I-grow-hydro.com, LOL. I finally found greners.com and it only says shipping department on the box so I've been building them a new wing on their building 1 order at a time. 

I've also been using a product called quantum1 for humic, but $30 for less than a quart gets old real quick...as far as fulvic, not there yet but on the list as of now. I have some peletized garden lime??? its made from dolomite lime, is this ok? I figure it is but may as well ask while I'm at it and I do have a bag of it so I may as well get rid of it if I can. 

So cannazyme is out aye? I already use hygrozyme, but I know its recommended to use 2 enzymes. What other would you recommend? The mayan microzyme?


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## Matt Rize (Nov 24, 2011)

whitey78 said:


> Thanks for the response. As far as not understanding that article, I meant at the time I had next to zero growing experience, I think I had my first batch of seedlings planted and not a whole lot else so I didnt know shit other than what my ed rosenthal grow book said so I may as well have been reading an article on nuclear physics at that point in time, what a difference a year or how ever long its been makes...
> 
> I just picked up a gallon of protekt a few weeks ago, I think everyone across every grow type uses the dyna-gro product now. However it sucks to hear about coco not being as good as I was hoping it to be for veganix. That is the one thing I can get from the one and only grow shop in town and I can walk out with it in bags somewhat discreetly. The only potting mixes I can get are fox farms happy frog, light warrior and ocean forest all @ the low low price of $25 a bag, other than that roots basic mix is available once in a while but I've never used it as the grow shop always talks me out of it. Its in the camo looking bags I think? I've been using a mix of all 3 of the FF mixes with added coco to cut down the strength of the ocean forest, its been ok so far I just wish the mixes were a little more......mixed I want to say. I usually do the FF's mixes bag/bag/bag and a brick of botanicare coco, then I'll throw in some perlite. What I wanted to do was stop using a bagged mix altogether, when I was mixing the bags of FF soil up, I kept finding pieces of hydroton in the soil. I had no idea FF sold recycled mix, not that I object to recycling soil, but I cant see paying $25 a bag to take a chance on getting some kind of insect larva or some roots from someone elses grow so I wanted to start using straight coco and then let that roll into me making my own mix, sounds like I got a start going though.
> 
> ...


Yeah, a little pelletized lime will help keep the pH in check thru flowering. I like the Happy Frog and Ocean Forest mixes, I've been using them forever. I usually mix about 2 parts Happy Frog with 1 part Ocean Forest. These potting mixes are not veganic, but none of the good ones are so don't worry about it. Good soil is really key to having an easy and fruitful grow. Im only using one -zyme right now, the hygrozyme. Mayan microzyme is not a -zyme at all, but is an inoculant like Myco Madness or Great White.


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## baldhead (Nov 25, 2011)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> So can I be considered a snob even though I'm not 100% veganic??


yes, indubitably


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## HigherGround (Nov 27, 2011)

Hey Matt! First off good info.! Hope this thread continues since I'm new to the thread. I'm very interested in trying a plant based nuitrent blend. I also found that a lot organic nutrients start with plants. Right? 

That hash you got going, DAME MAN! I'm sorry to say I have never came close to smoking anything that pure looking! I could only imagine smoking that and then going back to what I usually have. Everything would taste like hay. Lol. BIG UP!


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## Matt Rize (Nov 29, 2011)

Plushberry is starting to put on flowers, the purp pheno is pretty already


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## Samwell Seed Well (Nov 29, 2011)

you can barely tell but the coco plants are starting to catch up in growth and size
flipping in two weeks + and will be transplanting to 7 gallons soon

organics in front coco mainly, one in the middle of the first five but thats a different plant


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## SlightlyVaped (Nov 29, 2011)

Hey Matt, if I am vegging from clone for 1-2 weeks then switching to 8-9 weeks of flower do you think I can get away with using a 2 gallon smart pot? Or should I just stick to the 3 gallon regular pots I am using?


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## Matt Rize (Nov 29, 2011)

SlightlyVaped said:


> Hey Matt, if I am vegging from clone for 1-2 weeks then switching to 8-9 weeks of flower do you think I can get away with using a 2 gallon smart pot? Or should I just stick to the 3 gallon regular pots I am using?


I prefer bigger pots because they mean less waterings so less work. What strain are you doing? How big do you expect the plants to be?


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## SlightlyVaped (Nov 29, 2011)

For this round I am going to be running Ken's Kush to see if she is a keeper, next run I'll be looking for a legit Harlequin cut or some other high CBD strain (I need some high CBD ice wax!). 

I'd like to keep them under 3 feet from the top of the pot to the top of the cola but that's not always possible (no matter how many times I supper cropped it didn't phase my tahoe last run).

btw I believe I read somewhere you are working with harlequin, so if a cut ever ends up at southbaycrc let me know!


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## Matt Rize (Nov 29, 2011)

SlightlyVaped said:


> For this round I am going to be running Ken's Kush to see if she is a keeper, next run I'll be looking for a legit Harlequin cut or some other high CBD strain (I need some high CBD ice wax!).
> 
> I'd like to keep them under 3 feet from the top of the pot to the top of the cola but that's not always possible (no matter how many times I supper cropped it didn't phase my tahoe last run).


That might like a bigger pot. Like you said, topping will keep the plant shorter, but that won't decrease pot size requirements. Growing with a slightly oversized pot is easier than nursing root-bound plants thru until harvest. The harlequin is going around, Im about to flower a few. CBD ice wax is in the works...


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## SlightlyVaped (Nov 29, 2011)

Nice looks like I'll stick with what works, was just hoping to get a little more head room in the tent.

Cheers!


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## venenodalata (Dec 1, 2011)

Hey Matt, how do u use HUMBOLDT 0-10-0 or Nature`s Nectar P, as it`s in the bottle or less than that? I`m using the Canna BioFlora 16ml/gallon and 2-4ml gallon of Nature`s Nectar P, but i don`t know if it`s enough or not! Thanks man!!!


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## Matt Rize (Dec 2, 2011)

venenodalata said:


> Hey Matt, how do u use HUMBOLDT 0-10-0 or Nature`s Nectar P, as it`s in the bottle or less than that? I`m using the Canna BioFlora 16ml/gallon and 2-4ml gallon of Nature`s Nectar P, but i don`t know if it`s enough or not! Thanks man!!!


I don't use either of those anymore. I can't tell you if its enough either. Its should be. Can you post a picture?


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## Matt Rize (Dec 2, 2011)

Kushman moved to my town and we've been hanging out dabbing. 
His nute line is almost ready, I should be testing my next grow with it. 
Here's a pic of us at some expo in SF. Big up RPsmoke!


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## moash (Dec 2, 2011)

What will be the name of this nutrient line...
Is it Veganic?


Matt Rize said:


> Kushman moved to my town and we've been hanging out dabbing.
> His nute line is almost ready, I should be testing my next grow with it.
> Here's a pic of us at some expo in SF. Big up RPsmoke!


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## sharpshoota (Dec 2, 2011)

what new matt
been a while since ive been on riu, been hiding the last few months haha. Kushman has his own nute line!!?? you get that book out yet? any big changes with veganics, still having good success??


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## Matt Rize (Dec 2, 2011)

sharpshoota said:


> what new matt
> been a while since ive been on riu, been hiding the last few months haha. Kushman has his own nute line!!?? you get that book out yet? any big changes with veganics, still having good success??


Kushman's nute line is almost done with development and testing. We are smoking flowers grown with it already. But the line is still being perfected. 

The book is almost done. Its in the works I promise that.

Big changes with veganics? Not really? My line up for soil mix and nutes are listed a couple pages back. 

Haha, nice avatar  granny with a silenced gun.


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## moash (Dec 2, 2011)

Matt:
Post#1435???
Also,will it be only locally available?


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## sharpshoota (Dec 3, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Kushman's nute line is almost done with development and testing. We are smoking flowers grown with it already. But the line is still being perfected.
> 
> Haha, nice avatar  granny with a silenced gun.


yeah my granny is crazy, too bad shes getting arthritis in her trigger finger haha

just curious... has kushmans line been in a side by side controlled experiment yet??


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## Matt Rize (Dec 3, 2011)

moash said:


> Matt:
> Post#1435???
> Also,will it be only locally available?


Probably not, he is teamed up with a big company that you all know. Should be available nation wide.
Its is veganic. 
And for sharpshoota. I'm going to do a side by side with biocanna.


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## CaliWorthington (Dec 11, 2011)

I should probably read through the entire thread before posting, but 144 pages is a lot. I will read it all though.

I had the same basic idea for Veganics back around 1995. I began to compile a list of plant based ingredients which contain the nutrients we use in organic gardening. I moved several times though, and never followed up on it. I'm sure lots of people have had this idea over the years. Glad to see you guys really doing something with it! Now I can jump in with the benefit of your research and experience.

I was looking for Neem Cake, and found what appears to be another good source. They have 10 lbs. for $25, or 20 lbs. for $35, with shipping included. It's organically grown, but not certified because they dislike paperwork. (I have no affiliation with this company, just trying to help fellow gardeners). They're located in Florida.

http://neemtreefarms.com/neem-cake-p-368.html

For my first attempt, I'm thinking of trying the following mix:

Canna Coco
Sunshine Mix #1 or Biobizz Light-Mix 
Vermiblend (until I can make my own vegan compost next time)
Neem Cake
Alfalfa Meal
Forxfarm Big Chunk Perlite

How long do you let your mix mature before using it, 30 days? Also, do you think a little Greensand would be good? Thanks man!


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## GrowJahsGift (Dec 12, 2011)

Holy shit man just read thru the thread all 145 pages. Took me like 5 days gettin at it when I could. Just wanted to say thanks for your ongoin commitment to deal with the hate and to try and simplify the whole Veganic process been running the GO line for the last couple runs and I'm liking it so far but I'm started to see what was said about the CalMag+ being weak my girls can't get enough of that shit. And the feed heavy I also realized along the way damn P defs! Anyway I came into this Knowing very little about Veganics other than my bottles said "Veganic" on them. I knew that would be the best way to grow but didn't know why. I'm about to pull some plush, Ktrain and a Darkstar off and it is easily the best buds ive ever grown especially the plush that fucking smell man! Anyway big ups for this whole thread and leaving me with a better understanding of what I need to work towards before I can pull off some full melt like you've been rubbin in our faces lol. Anyway keep it up for the cause man I'll be following your advice for as long as you wanna give it.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 12, 2011)

CaliWorthington said:


> I should probably read through the entire thread before posting, but 144 pages is a lot. I will read it all though.
> 
> I had the same basic idea for Veganics back around 1995. I began to compile a list of plant based ingredients which contain the nutrients we use in organic gardening. I moved several times though, and never followed up on it. I'm sure lots of people have had this idea over the years. Glad to see you guys really doing something with it! Now I can jump in with the benefit of your research and experience.
> 
> ...


Hey, welcome to RIU and thanks for posting all that. 

30 days is good for letting the soil mix age, longer is better but you know how it goes.
Greensand, yes, good stuff, don't use too much. 
I would not use coco as the base, but instead a peat or peat/coco blend.


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## CaliWorthington (Dec 12, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Hey, welcome to RIU and thanks for posting all that.
> 
> 30 days is good for letting the soil mix age, longer is better but you know how it goes.
> Greensand, yes, good stuff, don't use too much.
> I would not use coco as the base, but instead a peat or peat/coco blend.


Hi Matt. Thanks for the welcome, and the info. The Sunshine or Biobizz mix are peat-based. I was planning to mix equal parts of peat/coco for the base.
I figured 60-90 days would probably be ideal. In that case, I'll start my mix now, and wait for the next run to go fully Veganic.


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 12, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Hey, welcome to RIU and thanks for posting all that.
> 
> 30 days is good for letting the soil mix age, longer is better but you know how it goes.
> Greensand, yes, good stuff, don't use too much.
> I would not use coco as the base, but instead a peat or peat/coco blend.


Lately I'm mixing 40/40/10/10 coco/peat/castings/humus as my base and amend from there. But then I immediately cut that by 25% with #4 perlite.

edit: corrected spelling lest anyone think I meant _pumice_...


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## CaliWorthington (Dec 13, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Lately I'm mixing 40/40/10/10 coco/peat/castings/humice as my base and amend from there. But then I immediately cut that by 25% with #4 perlite.


Thanks for that valuable info, Wolverine97. Your mix is very close to what I had been planning on. I might try something like 40% coco/40% peat/10% Vermiblend/10% neem cake. Then I'll add some alfalfa meal and a little greensand, and _then _I'll cut it with big chunk perlite. Maybe I'll go 15% Vermiblend and 5% neem cake. What do you think Matt?

Vermiblend contains compost, earthworm castings, humus, kelp and mycorrhizal fungi. I figure it will bring down the cost, and simplify my first run with Veganics.


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 13, 2011)

CaliWorthington said:


> Thanks for that valuable info, Wolverine97. Your mix is very close to what I had been planning on. I might try something like 40% coco/40% peat/10% Vermiblend/10% neem cake. Then I'll add some alfalfa meal and a little greensand, and _then _I'll cut it with big chunk perlite. Maybe I'll go 15% Vermiblend and 5% neem cake. What do you think Matt?
> 
> Vermiblend contains compost, earthworm castings, humus, kelp and mycorrhizal fungi. I figure it will bring down the cost, and simplify my first run with Veganics.


That's probably too much neem cake, but Matt would know better than I would about that item in particular.


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## CaliWorthington (Dec 13, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> That's probably too much neem cake, but Matt would know better than I would about that item in particular.


Sorry I keep editing my posts. Vermiblend is supposed to be used at 15%, so yeah, I think I'll go with 5% neem cake, unless Matt says otherwise. Thanks again.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 13, 2011)

CaliWorthington said:


> Sorry I keep editing my posts. Vermiblend is supposed to be used at 15%, so yeah, I think I'll go with 5% neem cake, unless Matt says otherwise. Thanks again.


5% is better than 15. I dont have a percent numbers, but I do add about a tablespoon per gallon.


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## CaliWorthington (Dec 13, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> 5% is better than 15. I dont have a percent numbers, but I do add about a tablespoon per gallon.


OK, if you're only using a tbsp/gal, I think I'll tweak my mix to 45/40/15 peat/coco/vermiblend, and throw the neem cake in with the alfalfa meal and other amendments.


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## cultivator707 (Dec 13, 2011)

matt,
First of all i would like to commend u for the info on all sites.I have grown herb for quite some time and stood behind kushman the whole time,I have never grown any other style.Anyways i have a garden right now, you may have seen me on mmj.com I actually couldnt find any info on the latest info on his worrk for a long time but ran in to kushman at the med cup concert i almost shit for a lack of better wordsthats how found mmj.com.i was the one with the handcuffs.. i have a 15 lighter with about 10-12 strains big plants but i had another problem on timer was swithed to on instead of auto so for 2 maybe three days the 600 on that timer was left on I am actually devastated cuz of the size of it and its all veganic . i noticed the flowering process slowed for bout 4 days or so after this incident , they have resumed with good growth now at day 32 what can i expect ... potency lost and hella seeds probably? along with yield?

thanks cultivator


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## Matt Rize (Dec 13, 2011)

cultivator707 said:


> matt,
> First of all i would like to commend u for the info on all sites.I have grown herb for quite some time and stood behind kushman the whole time,I have never grown any other style.Anyways i have a garden right now, you may have seen me on mmj.com I actually couldnt find any info on the latest info on his worrk for a long time but ran in to kushman at the med cup concert i almost shit for a lack of better wordsthats how found mmj.com.i was the one with the handcuffs.. i have a 15 lighter with about 10-12 strains big plants but i had another problem on timer was swithed to on instead of auto so for 2 maybe three days the 600 on that timer was left on I am actually devastated cuz of the size of it and its all veganic . i noticed the flowering process slowed for bout 4 days or so after this incident , they have resumed with good growth now at day 32 what can i expect ... potency lost and hella seeds probably? along with yield?
> 
> thanks cultivator


The light cycle issue might cause hermaphrodism, which can l lead to immature seeds. Keep a good eye on it. 

Thanks for the feedback. 

rize up!


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## Snafu1236 (Dec 13, 2011)

Nice job on the thread, Matt!


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## CaliWorthington (Dec 14, 2011)

I've read reports of plant deficiencies when using the Vermisoil, so now instead of Vermiblend, I think I'll just use separate ingredients for the compost, castings, kelp, etc...

Hey Matt, how much Bio-Ag VAM do you use in the potting mix? I'm guessing about 1 tbsp/gal, or less. Trying to decide how much to order, 100 grams or 300 grams. Thanks!


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## GrowJahsGift (Dec 14, 2011)

Got my first aact bubbling right now. I used EWC, blackstrap, GO bioWeed, and GO bioMarine for the kelp and fish hydrolysate. Still gotta pickup kelp and h.lysate. Is that ok for now?


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## Matt Rize (Dec 14, 2011)

CaliWorthington said:


> I've read reports of plant deficiencies when using the Vermisoil, so now instead of Vermiblend, I think I'll just use separate ingredients for the compost, castings, kelp, etc...
> 
> Hey Matt, how much Bio-Ag VAM do you use in the potting mix? I'm guessing about 1 tbsp/gal, or less. Trying to decide how much to order, 100 grams or 300 grams. Thanks!


BioAg VAM, I use about a tablespoon per 5 gallons. You will save by ordering more. The BioAg is whole spores instead of micronized fragments like most inoculants. This means the shelf life is doubled. 



GrowJahsGift said:


> Got my first aact bubbling right now. I used EWC, blackstrap, GO bioWeed, and GO bioMarine for the kelp and fish hydrolysate. Still gotta pickup kelp and h.lysate. Is that ok for now?


You dont even need the bioweed or biomarine. I just do EWC and molasses.


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## GrowJahsGift (Dec 14, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> BioAg VAM, I use about a tablespoon per 5 gallons. You will save by ordering more. The BioAg is whole spores instead of micronized fragments like most inoculants. This means the shelf life is doubled.
> 
> 
> You dont even need the bioweed or biomarine. I just do EWC and molasses.


Thx that's good to know man thanks for the advice my Plush are so close to coming off and my bubblebags are in the mail. And you've given me lots of hashporn to judge my product to. Neways now that I added the kelp and fish I was thinking on letting it go in my brewer for another day to give the bacteria enough time to consume the food and the Protozoa enough time to eat those motherfuckers. Will it make a difference or can I go ahead now and dilute and drench? Peace for now thanks in advance man


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## Matt Rize (Dec 14, 2011)

GrowJahsGift said:


> Thx that's good to know man thanks for the advice my Plush are so close to coming off and my bubblebags are in the mail. And you've given me lots of hashporn to judge my product to. Neways now that I added the kelp and fish I was thinking on letting it go in my brewer for another day to give the bacteria enough time to consume the food and the Protozoa enough time to eat those motherfuckers. Will it make a difference or can I go ahead now and dilute and drench? Peace for now thanks in advance man


I would go ahead and drench. Without a real microscope you have no way of knowing what is really going on that second day, could be good could be bad. What is your tea temperature?


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## GrowJahsGift (Dec 14, 2011)

Water temp bounce between 65-70°F I know thats a little low. It's also part of my reasoning for the extended brew time all my "tea knowledge" has come from you and Tim Wilson at this point so I figured you'd be the man for the job lol.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 14, 2011)

GrowJahsGift said:


> Water temp bounce between 65-70°F I know thats a little low. It's also part of my reasoning for the extended brew time all my "tea knowledge" has come from you and Tim Wilson at this point so I figured you'd be the man for the job lol.


Yeah, and most of what I know if from Tim as well...
65 to 70 is what I do, for about 24 hours. I figure better too soon than too late. I should get a real scope one of these days. Tim sells them on his site.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 14, 2011)

Plushberry round 2 is looking right...


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## romulan23 (Dec 14, 2011)

I got my plushberry seeds a couple weeks ago. Excited!!


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## romulan23 (Dec 14, 2011)

Is Plushberry better topped or left with main cola?


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## Matt Rize (Dec 14, 2011)

romulan23 said:


> Is Plushberry better topped or left with main cola?


everything is better topped at least once. early.


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## GrowJahsGift (Dec 14, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Yeah, and most of what I know if from Tim as well...
> 65 to 70 is what I do, for about 24 hours. I figure better too soon than too late. I should get a real scope one of these days. Tim sells them on his site.


I'll have to go get that tea outta the tub the fridge is ok I Think read on one of the 146 pages that it's good for about 10 days and then 10 days after dilution? Right? Sorry man newb teamaker


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## Matt Rize (Dec 14, 2011)

GrowJahsGift said:


> I'll have to go get that tea outta the tub the fridge is ok I Think read on one of the 146 pages that it's good for about 10 days and then 10 days after dilution? Right? Sorry man newb teamaker


its not really good for that long. use it right away.


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## GrowJahsGift (Dec 15, 2011)

agmo79 said:


> whats all this talk about adding neem and neem cake to the soil will this not be counter productive considering neem is a natural fungicide and antimicrobial that would kill all ur microlife(myco fungi, protozoa etc.) in ayurvedic medicine they use it as a remedy for a lot of things like athletes foot fungus, and ringworm, if it could kill this what would it do for your good fungi? Most neem based foliar sprays tell you to re-inoculate even if using as foliar, so what would happen if u added it directly to soil? Especially since these sprays are diluted, wouldnt pure concentrated neem be bad? If I was a growing and using organics I would only use neem on a as needed bases not as a preventive measure, only use it if u have a problem, not before the problem.


Used google found this

The studies on the effect of both type of neem cakes (n-hexane extracted & expeller extracted) on symbiotic and non-symbiotic nitrogen fixing bacteria have revealed that it had n-adverse effect on its growth with the exception that n-hexan extracted neem cake stimulated the growth of certain species of Rhizobium-in vitro
http://eprints.hec.gov.pk/1221/1/941.html.htm


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## Matt Rize (Dec 15, 2011)

agmo79 said:


> whats all this talk about adding neem and neem cake to the soil will this not be counter productive considering neem is a natural fungicide and antimicrobial that would kill all ur microlife(myco fungi, protozoa etc.) in ayurvedic medicine they use it as a remedy for a lot of things like athletes foot fungus, and ringworm, if it could kill this what would it do for your good fungi? Most neem based foliar sprays tell you to re-inoculate even if using as foliar, so what would happen if u added it directly to soil? Especially since these sprays are diluted, wouldnt pure concentrated neem be bad? If I was a growing and using organics I would only use neem on a as needed bases not as a preventive measure, only use it if u have a problem, not before the problem.


I think you seriously misunderstand what neem cake is. Neem cake is a plant meal left over after the cold pressing, very different than cold pressed neem oil which contains high levels of azadirachtin. Neem cake is slow release like any meal/cake. Neem cake is a preventative, not a cure for anything. It also feeds to soil food web. Without high levels of azadirachtin, the cake is beneficial to the soil life. 



> *Ahimsa Organics Neem Cake - OMRI Listed
> *Slow Release Nitrogen, Aerates, Nourishes, Promotes Plant Growth & Resistance, Improves Soil Quality. *Excellent for Vegan Organic Gardening*.
> Neem Cake is the residue obtained from neem seed kernels which have been crushed to extract the oil. Rich in N-P-K, it is an excellent organic fertilizer. Neem cake has been known to enrich the soil and protect the plant. Earthworm populations have been known to increase where neem cake has been applied.
> 
> ...


*
*


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## NightbirdX (Dec 15, 2011)

What up, Matt! Things are looking good brother. Your PB looks dank! I wish I had gotten some more color out of mine, but damn they sure are crazy dank. I don't mind crazy green phenos though.  Did the pic of mine with the 3 colas look Space Queen dom to you? I was looking at pics of SQ, but it doesn't really look like her either. Either way, I'm very happy for sure.


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## CaliWorthington (Dec 15, 2011)

I was the one who mentioned putting 5-10% Neem Cake in the mix, so that misunderstanding was probably my fault. I actually _had _read the post Matt quoted above, where it says "*Exercise caution while using in potting mixes. Using more than 1% could cause a lack of seed germination or stunt young plants.*" I guess I missed that part the first time.

I just ordered some VAM-Endo Mix, Ful-Humix, TM7 and Ful-Power from Bio-Ag. They told me the VAM-Endo Mix needs to come in direct contact with the roots. So you want to dust the roots with it when you transplant, that's the best way to use it. I'm planning to alternate between TM7 and Ful-Humix powders with each watering. The Ful-Power liquid humic is best used for foilar spraying, but can also be used for watering.

Still gathering the rest of the ingredients for my veganic soil mix.


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## upthearsenal (Dec 15, 2011)

Anyone here use the GO line?

Thoughts? Suggestions?

I'm thinking of trying it out, maybe even doing a GO/Biocanna side-by-side in straight pro-mix... 

The starter box thing has a lot of bottles though, I guess I'd have to see exactly what each is for.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 15, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Anyone here use the GO line?
> 
> Thoughts? Suggestions?
> 
> ...


I'm still using the biocanna, but im using GO calmag and bioroot with the vega/flores/bioboost. GO calmag has been working very well. Root... I can never tell with those kinds of products. Ive seen some nice gardens with the whole line but never ran it myself.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 15, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> What up, Matt! Things are looking good brother. Your PB looks dank! I wish I had gotten some more color out of mine, but damn they sure are crazy dank. I don't mind crazy green phenos though.  Did the pic of mine with the 3 colas look Space Queen dom to you? I was looking at pics of SQ, but it doesn't really look like her either. Either way, I'm very happy for sure.


I think the pink pheno is the space queen dom pheno. Right?
And my room has been on the cold side... not the worst when ur bumpin' plushberry.


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## GrowJahsGift (Dec 15, 2011)

My plushberry are blowing Me away with trich coverage and density on the GO line with no soil amendments other than dolomite I'm at day 45 of flowering and their my two best plants hands down I will try and post pics soon so you can see what the GO line is all about.


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## NightbirdX (Dec 16, 2011)

My SQ dom is starting to pinken up a bit as she finishes it seems. just like the BCS dom is starting to purple more. How long do you run yours for? i was going to go for 8.5-9. Congrats on the sticky. When did that happen? I miss these things on occassion.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 16, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> My SQ dom is starting to pinken up a bit as she finishes it seems. just like the BCS dom is starting to purple more. How long do you run yours for? i was going to go for 8.5-9. Congrats on the sticky. When did that happen? I miss these things on occassion.


8.5 to 9 is what I do as well. Your SQ does look like the Pink pheno of Plushberry. 
Thanks on the sticky, I just got one here and one in the concentrates forum for my hash thread


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## upthearsenal (Dec 16, 2011)

It's a sticky!!! Whoo..

I love going back and reading the first few pages, people were so skeptical, lol... now where are we?


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## GrowJahsGift (Dec 16, 2011)

Growing the frostiest stinkiest trichome laden buds the world has ever seen!! Lol


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## upthearsenal (Dec 16, 2011)

^lmao...

I didn't even see those Plushberries till now, wow they look great Matt, brilliant as always.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 16, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> ^lmao...
> 
> I didn't even see those Plushberries till now, wow they look great Matt, brilliant as always.


Thanks UTA. I little trick I use is flowering one light under MH. Its keeps the whole room healthier, altho that light yields less. Also, the buds flowered under MH always have the most color... makes good pics. 

My veganic haters are still many, they just don't even try posting here anymore. I can't believe it, but I think I outlasted my trolls


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## upthearsenal (Dec 16, 2011)

So you have your whole garden in rotation, rotating from the hps to mh? Or are they all fixed? I've seen people finish off their plants under mh, which is something I'd like to try if I ever run two HIDs.

Do you just go run by run, or do you do a perpetual?

I think you starved the trolls, that's really the only way to get rid of them


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## upthearsenal (Dec 16, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Yo big up di CollieMan1! One love idren.
> 
> I use a 400 and 600 MH to veg, then switch to two 600 MHs and a 600 HPS at 12/12. Then 2 HPS and 1 MH two weeks later. All HPS by 4-6 weeks into flower depending on the length of the cycle.


Whoops, here's my answer I guess. Found it by accident thumbing through the pages


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## CollieMan1 (Dec 16, 2011)

agreed on a MH making the whole garden healthier. i run 2 MH 1000w in each of my 6k watt rooms. makes for excellent spectrum coverage. the buds under my MH are always a bit smaller, but the colors are amazing and they always seem to smell fruitier than the buds under my HPS bulbs. the hortilux eye blue MH is an epic bulb!


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## CollieMan1 (Dec 16, 2011)

this thread is finally a sticky! its about damn time.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 16, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Whoops, here's my answer I guess. Found it by accident thumbing through the pages



haha, thats too funny. no worries UTA. Every time I answer ?s the reply is slightly different anyways. 



CollieMan1 said:


> this thread is finally a sticky! its about damn time.


haha woot!


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 16, 2011)

upthearsenal said:


> Anyone here use the GO line?
> 
> Thoughts? Suggestions?
> 
> ...



I do. I like it for the most part, though you have to feed heavy if you don't amend your soil. That would be especially true in straight ProMix. I don't pH it ever, just mix and feed, no issues. I don't use all of the bottles either, just the Bio Bloom, Bio Bud, and CalMag but I also use a silica product and a few other additives here and there. It produces killer meds, and I'm pulling great yields with it.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 16, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I do. I like it for the most part, though you have to feed heavy if you don't amend your soil. That would be especially true in straight ProMix. I don't pH it ever, just mix and feed, no issues. I don't use all of the bottles either, just the Bio Bloom, Bio Bud, and CalMag but I also use a silica product and a few other additives here and there. It produces killer meds, and I'm pulling great yields with it.


What kind of water you using? Starting pH and ppm?


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 16, 2011)

I use RO water cut 80/20 with well water. The well water ppm is between 250-350ppm depending on seasonal conditions, the RO comes out around 6-8ppm generally. The well water pH is usually around 8, the RO around 6 but I've never even checked it once I mix the two. Don't need to...


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## Matt Rize (Dec 16, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I use RO water cut 80/20 with well water. The well water ppm is between 250-350ppm depending on seasonal conditions, the RO comes out around 6-8ppm generally. The well water pH is usually around 8, the RO around 6 but I've never even checked it once I mix the two. Don't need to...


are you watching me garden or something? because thats what I do, with my city water... lol


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 16, 2011)

matt rize said:


> are you watching me garden or something? Because thats what i do, with my city water... Lol


Great minds...


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## NightbirdX (Dec 16, 2011)

I can vouch for wolv, killer chron. I went back and looked at the pb description at the the tude. I got one of each of the two phenos he described. I couldnt believe it when I read it. The two phenos to a T. At least I know it was well tested, lol..


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 16, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> I can vouch for wolv, killer chron. I went back and looked at the pb description at the the tude. I got one of each of the two phenos he described. I couldnt believe it when I read it. The two phenos to a T. At least I know it was well tested, lol..


Thanks Birdman, your stuff aint too shabby either. That NYC looked incredible. I think we're all moving in the right general direction with our grows, and it can always be a little better. That keeps me motivated to listen to others, and constantly try to tweak things for the better. You really need to check out this latest harvest man... whoa.


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## NightbirdX (Dec 16, 2011)

For sure man, we'll have a pow wow after xmas and do some smoke reports.  

Ya, I am forever tweaking my grow. But it has come a long way and things are going great. I used to hate my own medicine, but now I hardly can't stand smoking anyone elses. And god forbid someone tricks me into smoking mids again, lol. After being here for awhile, you can start to filter out who doesn't really know things and who does. I always throw questions out there if I am not sure about something or if I want to get some feed back about some things I am tweaking.

How often are you watering your little ones, Wolv? I think a big problem that I had was that I may have been under watering them. I have started spreading things out a little more, less quantity during feedings, but giving them something every couple of days. Whereas with my pro-mix they get fed around once every 5 days and are good to go. God forbid I let them dry out too much, it is such a pain to get them rehydrated. I think regardless of the outcome, I am going to at put one bag of Pro-Mix into the Roots to help with a little more absorption.


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 16, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> For sure man, we'll have a pow wow after xmas and do some smoke reports.
> 
> Ya, I am forever tweaking my grow. But it has come a long way and things are going great. I used to hate my own medicine, but now I hardly can't stand smoking anyone elses. And god forbid someone tricks me into smoking mids again, lol. After being here for awhile, you can start to filter out who doesn't really know things and who does. I always throw questions out there if I am not sure about something or if I want to get some feed back about some things I am tweaking.
> 
> How often are you watering your little ones, Wolv? I think a big problem that I had was that I may have been under watering them. I have started spreading things out a little more, less quantity during feedings, but giving them something every couple of days. Whereas with my pro-mix they get fed around once every 5 days and are good to go. God forbid I let them dry out too much, it is such a pain to get them rehydrated. I think regardless of the outcome, I am going to at put one bag of Pro-Mix into the Roots to help with a little more absorption.


I think the way in which you water is pretty important. Depending on growth stage, it varies between daily and every other day. During peak bloom it's daily, running in five gallon containers. I always water until I get runoff, I water a little bit and let it soak in for ten minutes or so, then come back and give the rest. That way I ensure that the entire container (smart pots) is saturated. I actually find that they dry out significantly quicker when I water this way, than if I just give a little bit occasionally. This is a good thing though, it means the plant is operating at peak potential. 

The few plants that I just kinda throw in the corner usually get a lazy watering routine, and they tend to stay on the moist side because of it. I'm not entirely sure why this is, but I think it's just because this plant like a complete wet/dry cycle and doing it this way keeps the roots at peak performance.

That's the reason I really prefer the roots (mixing from scratch now), it holds water perfectly for me.


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## hazorazo (Dec 17, 2011)

Matt Rize, I expect to see you at the Oregon Medical Cannabis Awards next year if they add the hash/concentrates category! Love the thread! My Ice Anomaly just tested at 20.75 percent, and I will test the hash over the next couple months. I can only hope for your level of quality. But, rest assured, my friend.....your message is getting out there to anyone that will listen. You and I know there are plenty of hash makers in denial......lol. Hope all is well for everyone. Happy Holidays!


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## upthearsenal (Dec 17, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I do. I like it for the most part, though you have to feed heavy if you don't amend your soil. That would be especially true in straight ProMix. I don't pH it ever, just mix and feed, no issues. I don't use all of the bottles either, just the Bio Bloom, Bio Bud, and CalMag but I also use a silica product and a few other additives here and there. It produces killer meds, and I'm pulling great yields with it.


Thanks Wolverine! I'm used to feeding heavy, so that won't be a problem. I also don't worry about pH, there's no need.

I guess I'll be doing the research in order to find out what I'd use, both through reading and trying out myself. Naturally, I omit bottles that I feel are not needed, so it might be interesting to start with that starter box thing, and see what I end up using towards the end.



Wolverine97 said:


> I think the way in which you water is pretty important. Depending on growth stage, it varies between daily and every other day. During peak bloom it's daily, running in five gallon containers. I always water until I get runoff, I water a little bit and let it soak in for ten minutes or so, then come back and give the rest. That way I ensure that the entire container (smart pots) is saturated. I actually find that they dry out significantly quicker when I water this way, than if I just give a little bit occasionally. This is a good thing though, it means the plant is operating at peak potential.


This. 

I'm the same way man, water until run-off, and water in intervals, pour a little, let it soak and after maybe two or three of these the pots are nice, heavy, and saturated. I've also noticed that they drink up more this way.


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## upthearsenal (Dec 17, 2011)

Thought I'd throw this up for fun...

One of my girls that's just about finishing up, I've been running a SOG the past few runs with Querkle and this time I wanted to see what my Blue Widow would do in a small(er) pot, straight pro-mix, and Biocanna (I also used the VAM-endo mix; the tea was only molasses and the endo-fungi).







Did pretty well in my opinion, well enough for me to decide that it is perfect for my next SOG...


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 17, 2011)

Looks delicious.


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## whitey78 (Dec 19, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Looks delicious.


That it does, I have 2 cuts of querkle that I started growing my last grow and this run I switched to the GO, I was going canna but switched it up last minute. My querkle from seed plants were a bit leafy, but the cuttings I took from them produced much denser buds and also had some better coloring. I am running those 2 pheno's again this time around to see how good I can get it to grow. Its nice to know that Q works well in a SOG style, I ran 2 of them LST'd into a bunch of tops, and the 2 clones I ran straight up un-topped/cut/nothing... those came out good but one was still a little leafy but I think I need practice rather than new genetics so I'm running them again as I said. 

I gotta go "dirt shopping" today as I like to say. Hopefully they have worm castings for me as they are as elusive as big foot around here, as far as soil I'm going to take rize's advice with happy frog/ocean forest mix even though I wont be running canna. I'll see what other amendments I can get from there, they have mostly fox farms stuff as far as amendments, hopefully they have some decent non-guano "shit" for me to buy. 

I was wondering what kind of run off are you guys looking for with the GO stuff? With chem nutes I was going for like 30%+ but that much isnt needed with the go products I imagine. I have some seedlings that are probably going to be fed for the first time today as well as some cuttings that I am just working up to full strength feedings that I want to transplant later on when I get back with the "dirt". 

What have you guys dropped out of the GO line just out of curiosity? I ordered quarts of everything except the marine and the bio-thrive grow which I ordered gallons of figuring I'd use the marine for both veg and bloom as well as it seems that I am always using more grow than bloom nutes. I picked up the diamond black but right after I ordered it I see its the first thing people are dropping so maybe I'll do a pepsi/coke challenge and see if I can see any difference on a couple of plants or 1 or 2 of each strain that I grow this time. Other than that I am using (havent started it yet) hygrozyme, protekt silica, and humbolt honey es, I bought a bottle of blackstrap molasses in the grocery store the other day to try but the HH es probably has some better shit in it than just un-sulphered molasses, but I'm gonna try it see how it goes.


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 19, 2011)

I just make sure that there is _some_ runoff, and that's only to ensure even saturation. You don't have to be concerned with salt buildup like you would with a chem nutrient line.


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## CaliWorthington (Dec 19, 2011)

whitey78 said:


> Hopefully they have worm castings for me as they are as elusive as big foot around here


Don't know where you're located, but I got some absolutely beautiful, clean, dark, moist, loamy earthworm castings at my hydro store the other day. It's the Nature's Solution brand. These castings look so good, they're probably worth paying the shipping if you can't get any locally. OMRI certified and vegetable sources only. Again, no affiliation with either of these companies, just trying to help.

http://www.discount-hydro.com/products/Nature's-Solution-Worm-Castings.html


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## jray2469 (Dec 19, 2011)

Great thread interested to see where this goes, Well here is an interesting way to control height and increase a pine cone style bud in bloom. A Koranic feller told me that if i were to brew a co2 mixture of 1/2 tsp. dry yeast to some Black Strap molasses(1/2 cup), and 3 tbsp. Mexican guano. and last but not least 1 cup brown sugar preferred, but can be subbed with white. brew for a day with free co2 for grow room for a day with a milk jug and a 1/4 in. line out the top. shaking now and then to create pressure. Once brewed, there will be a layer of goo at the top, extract with a baster from the center leaving the top and bottom layers undisturbed.Re-jar and feed at a 1/4 to 1/2 cup per gallon of water. I added one banana skin chopped up to the mix. smoking the bang bud now and its great and one hit [email protected] Spreading the brew, whats yours?


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## jray2469 (Dec 19, 2011)

its the low levels of alcohol brewed gets them addicted and then it seems they become dependent on the juice. it lasts for 2 weeks in a dark cool p[ace, however it is a alcohol brew so do not forget to allow room for the pressure expansion in the jar, allow at least 3" of space or this crap will explode like a shakin soda!


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## NightbirdX (Dec 20, 2011)

Matt, I know you are a big on the BioAg products. I am basically looking for a Humic Fulvic to add to my soil mix. I was thinking of mixing in some TM-7. Would this allow me to take out the Humega I am using currently? I know you also use the Vam Endo, but are there any of the others you would recommend using? I've looked over about 75% of this thread and am sure I missed it somewhere, cause i've seen it in here a million times, I just am getting tired and figured I would ask you.


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## GrowJahsGift (Dec 20, 2011)

4 day difference between photos 2nd day in of that 4 days they got a Compost Tea look at the difference between day 38 and day 42!!!!!! Go Microbeasties 
1st pic is the day 42 second is day 38
This is the full GO line Plushberry under a 1000W HPS


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## Matt Rize (Dec 20, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Matt, I know you are a big on the BioAg products. I am basically looking for a Humic Fulvic to add to my soil mix. I was thinking of mixing in some TM-7. Would this allow me to take out the Humega I am using currently? I know you also use the Vam Endo, but are there any of the others you would recommend using? I've looked over about 75% of this thread and am sure I missed it somewhere, cause i've seen it in here a million times, I just am getting tired and figured I would ask you.


The humic and fulvic from BioAg are added to my water, not mixed in to my soil. The fulvic specifically is a golden liquid. The Humega is humic and can be replaced with BioAg's. The fulvic is a whole other level. I use the TM7 about every other week. I use their kelp in flower. 

Happy Holidabs!


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## NightbirdX (Dec 21, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> The humic and fulvic from BioAg are added to my water, not mixed in to my soil. The fulvic specifically is a golden liquid. The Humega is humic and can be replaced with BioAg's. The fulvic is a whole other level. I use the TM7 about every other week. I use their kelp in flower.
> 
> Happy Holidabs!


You just add the TM-7 in with a feeding? And then the cyto during flowering?


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## NightbirdX (Dec 21, 2011)

Just ordered the TM-7 and Cytoplus. Thanks for the info.


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## CaliWorthington (Dec 21, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> Just ordered the TM-7 and Cytoplus. Thanks for the info.


I was gonna order some of the Cyto, but I think it's basically TM7 cut with kelp powder, so I'll just use separate kelp for now. The TM7 and Ful-Humix look really fine though, so next time I'll probably order the Cyto too.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Dec 21, 2011)

I have ful-power, but why does mine say .015% humic? I thought I was using fulvic


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## Matt Rize (Dec 21, 2011)

NightbirdX said:


> You just add the TM-7 in with a feeding? And then the cyto during flowering?


Yes, but not every watering. More like every other week, or as needed.


CaliWorthington said:


> I was gonna order some of the Cyto, but I think it's basically TM7 cut with kelp powder, so I'll just use separate kelp for now. The TM7 and Ful-Humix look really fine though, so next time I'll probably order the Cyto too.


Yup. It seems to me that TM-7 plus kelp powder = Cytoplus. Sometimes, when I don't want the added micros, I'll use the kelp with fulvic. 


Bird Gymnastics said:


> I have ful-power, but why does mine say .015% humic? I thought I was using fulvic


Thats some chemical thing. Its fulvic. The labeling is funny because of fulvic laws.


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## baldhead (Dec 22, 2011)

Neem seedcake according to the source I read is 4-3-2 NPK and .77 Ca, .75 Mg, 1.2 S and .28 Na
It seems pretty high on the S and P, so use accordingly depending on what else is in your mix.


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## CaliWorthington (Dec 22, 2011)

baldhead said:


> Neem seedcake according to the source I read is 4-3-2 NPK and .77 Ca, .75 Mg, 1.2 S and .28 Na
> It seems pretty high on the S and P, so use accordingly depending on what else is in your mix.


Rize on man.  At a rate of only 1 tbsp/gal of potting mix, I doubt it matters too much what you mix it with. Plus it's slow release as I understand. Then again, you make a good point. No need to mix in additional sources of phosphorus or sulfur when using the cake. Thanks for posting those numbers.

Also the BioCanna liquid fertilizer is pretty low in phosphorus going by the numbers, so neem cake is a perfect amendment to beef up (pun intended) the P a bit.

As for the BioAg powders, here's a quick breakdown:

Ful-Humix - straight fulvic/humic powder (use every watering)

TM7 - Ful-Humix with Micronutrients (weekly or as needed)

Cyto-Plus - TM7 with Kelp (weekly or as needed)

My guess is that it's perfectly fine to give your plants TM7 or Cyto-Plus every watering if you want to. Matt would know for sure.


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## whitey78 (Dec 23, 2011)

I wanted to ask what you guys thought of the soil I put together for my rooted clones to be put in (a few are already in). 

I was able to get 2 30 or 40 pound bags of "wiggle worm" worm castings (I'm pretty sure the bags said organic so I hope they were, only choice), 2 bags of happy frog, 3 bags of ocean forest, I had lime and granular mycos on hand. I also bought a bag of bone meal only because I mixed up the name label and the N-P-K label of another fox farms amendment and didnt catch it until after I opened and sprinkled a little in the fist batch I mixed but whatever, I dont think I'll be using it anymore, definitely not what I want in there if its not fish bone meal which I dont think it is but even then..whatever...

Anyhow I mixed basically the happy frog and ocean forest 60/40 (HF/OF), mixing up like 20 gal. of soil which I added a good 10-12+ heavy cups of EWC's and a little over a half cup of lime, and then some myco's were mixed in when I transplanted, hit them with some water to get the new soil wet, and then I had mixed up some of the GO products as well as some myco's in a bucket with some molasses for 24 hours prior to all this and I topped off the new potted plants with a few cups around the center of the pot of the aerated go/myco/molasses brew. The first 3 I did last night seem to be good and not suffering to much stress but they are looking a little light yellowish similar to lacking N on the newest growth, the top site and all the small node sites down the main stem are yellow on 1 or 2 of the clones I think. I just put them in the potting mix that contains some NPK so I hope by the time they need watering I'll know but I dont plan on doing anything at least until then, but I figured I'd ask. I just didnt have access to any good amendments but I plan to do some looking around online over the next few weeks hopefully before I need more dirt, so if theres any other amendments you guys care to post for the 50th time go for it please. I smoked querkle, jilly bean, the void, and chernobyl today starting before 10am (I'll try for earlier tom.) so the #1 excuse said on this site is mine tonight..... "I'm high". 

My next question is for rize or anyone who's keen on tea's and when I should apply them in veg? (also howz about the explanation on that bio film comment I made awhile back, how and when should it be used/applied? and what are they made of? I owe you for that one dude, whenever you can post it). Also, I read a few pages back you recommended just ewc's and molasses for tea's so I think I'm going to go with that once my newly planted clones get established a little before being flipped just not sure when I should, thats what I planned to do anyhow. 

But is there anything else you guys throw into your teas besides ewc's and at what points does everyone apply the teas? and do I remember it being posted I'm supposed to put the contents of the tea into an old sock and then toss it into a bucket with some bubbles...right?

Thanks all, this thread and a lot of you non haters have helped me out a lot, I'm still a newb and bust out with the long dumb questions sometimes as well as being a slight twinge of neurotic so its all good LOL....


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 23, 2011)

You might consider adding a bit more lime next time, assuming it's dolomite that you're using...


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## whitey78 (Dec 23, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> You might consider adding a bit more lime next time, assuming it's dolomite that you're using...



More lime....check..... and it is dolomite or derived from I believe, its just the home depot or plant tone brand or whatever.

Its funny, I searched and was thinking about asking how much I should put in and thought I'd get the "do you not know what the search feature is" response so I guesstimated on the low side. But it always seems like when you need that little snippet of information that you've seen 9 million times when I had no use for it, it becomes un-find-able when I do need it.

But thanks W, I've read some people throw a cup or 2 of lime in per bag of soil and a few other amounts that werent set in stone, but I really wasnt sure in my situation but I knew I needed some. Just out of curiosity, how much would you recommend? What I put in there was only for 4 - 5 gallon buckets of soil that I mixed up with those ingredients, think a cup would be enough? 

Now let me ask the more important question, the lime I'm putting in is going to control PH somewhat, but is the lime more for helping the soil decompose or is it more for PH? I havent concerned myself one bit with PH since I started using the GO stuff and I will admit I've never been happier to not have to sit there and play with ph especially when you go through meters like I do. 

But does the PH of the medium have any kind of (??) bearing or importance in this style of growing? Just tryin to learn a bit more info that isnt bullshit and can help me understand this style of growing a little better. Sorry if I come off as an all over the place nut.....lol


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 23, 2011)

whitey78 said:


> More lime....check..... and it is dolomite or derived from I believe, its just the home depot or plant tone brand or whatever.
> 
> Its funny, I searched and was thinking about asking how much I should put in and thought I'd get the "do you not know what the search feature is" response so I guesstimated on the low side. But it always seems like when you need that little snippet of information that you've seen 9 million times when I had no use for it, it becomes un-find-able when I do need it.
> 
> ...


I do 1 cup/cubic ft of soil, but if mixing from scratch with sphagnum etc then I'd do more. It serves several purposes, first is pH control, but it is also a good source of calcium and magnesium (ratios depend on the source). The pH matters, but the key is just getting your starting mix right and the soil life and plant itself will take care of the rest. I don't have a problem answering questions, as long as I have the time and it doesn't get too tedious. Peace.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 23, 2011)

HAPPY HOLIDABS!!!







rize up RIU!


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 23, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> HAPPY HOLIDABS!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Merry Christmas Matt.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Dec 23, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Yes, but not every watering. More like every other week, or as needed.
> 
> Yup. It seems to me that TM-7 plus kelp powder = Cytoplus. Sometimes, when I don't want the added micros, I'll use the kelp with fulvic.
> 
> Thats some chemical thing. Its fulvic. The labeling is funny because of fulvic laws.


Ha ha that 
is what i figured about the fulvic...damn labeling laws! Also, my girlfriend wants to know where she can obtain her own "rize up" shirt? She said ever since I started listening to you the taste of my bud is now PERFECT! Lol happy holidabs and merry Christmas!


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## MalcolmMustang (Dec 23, 2011)

On my first Veganic Grow right now. 
running Bio Canna Kyle Kushman style.
This thread is full of great info. Thank you for all your contributions Matt Rize. Are you still using BioCanna? Is a flush needed or should I just discontinue nutes for the last couple weeks?


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## whitey78 (Dec 24, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I do 1 cup/cubic ft of soil, but if mixing from scratch with sphagnum etc then I'd do more. It serves several purposes, first is pH control, but it is also a good source of calcium and magnesium (ratios depend on the source). The pH matters, but the key is just getting your starting mix right and the soil life and plant itself will take care of the rest. I don't have a problem answering questions, as long as I have the time and it doesn't get too tedious. Peace.



Thanks dude, its definitely appreciated. 

Dont get me wrong, I understand the overall basis of veganics but I'm just completely new to organics in general and whats going on in the soil and how to keep it going on in the right ways without pissing any of the crow-bies off, having them go on strike on me or something. 

The 3 ladies I mentioned in one of my posts that I put in the soil I mixed up are all coming to life nicely so far. They are in 5 gallon smart pots which I think I went a little too big on for clones based on how long I'm going to veg them for but whatever, next time I'll put them in 3's I think, I'll have to see how this first batch works out, as soon as I can take a few cuts I'm gonna flower them out. 

The kind of important question I have is when should I be applying tea's? So far I'm gonna go with just the EWC's and some humbolt honey es I think as I've seen mr. rize say he uses (with molasses), but I'm gonna wait until I get at least one watering in with straight water i think. I think thats what I should do but I'll have to wait and see what the plants say when its watering time. 

What does everyone do for foliar feeding? I've been only hitting them with water here and there, I was doing a foliar of liquid karma when they were put in small pots to establish roots but other than the water, I havent been doing much. 

Thanks again and happy holidays everyone.


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## CaliWorthington (Dec 24, 2011)

Yesterday I scored an 80 gallon compost tumbler, brand new in the box, for $80. It's the Lifetime tumbler that retails for $140. With temperatures of 34 degrees at night, I figure I'll need to keep my veganic soil mix indoors for it to season. A tumbler seemed like the best solution for both mixing and storage.

Oh yeah, Merry Christmas everyone!

And Happy Chronica!


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## Matt Rize (Dec 24, 2011)

MalcolmMustang said:


> On my first Veganic Grow right now.
> running Bio Canna Kyle Kushman style.
> This thread is full of great info. Thank you for all your contributions Matt Rize. Are you still using BioCanna? Is a flush needed or should I just discontinue nutes for the last couple weeks?


Yep, still using the BioCanna. I'm about to be testing Kushman's new line of nutes. Thanks for the feedback.
I do not add nutrients for the last two weeks, but I do give the plants a little natural sweetener (agave syrup, unrefined sugar, or brown sugar)


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## CaliWorthington (Dec 26, 2011)

I was just reading about sprouting beans, grain seeds, etc... and I came across this.



> "You can use the sprout runoff water, it has nutrients."


I wonder if this could be a source of live enzymes or other nutrients for plants... or not. I think I'll test the ppm and pH of some sprout runoff water, and if it seems OK, water with it. Might not do anything, but who knows?


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## 'ome Grown (Dec 26, 2011)

Try the water from some alfalfa sprouts. I know that as a green manure they produce a hormone that assists with root development. Could be active in the run off water as well.

Cheers


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## MalcolmMustang (Dec 26, 2011)

Do you guys feed on every watering? Right now I am on week 2 giving my plants 7ml Vega 8ml Flores 2ml Flavorful 5ml Humboldt Honey and White widow with Hygrozyme. Adding Humboldt Bloom next week. I also have some Structural Integrity from Humboldt nutrients which is a silica. Should I use the silica in my newly formed veganic garden? I used to use chem ferts and I used the Silica with them but I don't know whether or not it will hurt my benefecial microbes now that Im organic. What is the benefits of using the silica? I heard it protects against root disease but I have never had a problem with that, anyone seen better results through using silica? I have not noticed a difference with it so I have not been using it so far.


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## jray2469 (Dec 27, 2011)

Sorry not trying to jack this tread but why not make your own instead?

Humic substances are formed by the microbial degradation of dead plant matter, such as lignin. They are very resistant to further biodegradation. The precise properties and structure of a given sample depend on the water or soil source and the specific conditions of extraction. Nevertheless, the average properties of humic substances from different sources are remarkably similar.Humic substances in soils and sediments can be divided into three main fractions: humic acids, fulvic acids, and humin. The humic and fulvic acids are extracted as a colloidal sol from soil and other solid phase sources into a strongly basic aqueous solution of sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide. Humic acids are precipitated from this solution by adjusting the pH to 1 with hydrochloric acid, leaving the fulvic acids in solution. This is the operational distinction between humic and fulvic acids. Humin is insoluble in dilute alkali. The alcohol-soluble portion of the humic fraction is, in general, named _ulmic acid_. Gray humic acids (GHA) are soluble in low-ionic-strength alkaline media; brown humic acids (BHA) are soluble in alkaline conditions independent of ionic strength; and fulvic acids (FA) are soluble independent of pH and I.[SUP][2][/SUP]
Chromatography and liquid-liquid extraction can be used to separate the components that make up a humic substance. Substances identified include mono-, di-, and tri-hydroxy acids, fatty acids,dicarboxylic acids, linear alcohols, phenolic acids, and terpenoids
Wouldn't it make sense to add Flavored jello to the tea above and get flavor and vigor dense buds? Adding the fattie <jello> part would help heal the root tips burnt off by the low dose of alcohol, which acts as a distressing agent for the plant and secondarily, promote root tips splitting off and strengthening the bulb? I have used this for many grows and gotta say it works. Just around the edge of the bucket RIGHT. trying not to get it on the main root bulb, like 24 oz to a five gallon bucket? pics are proof and how much do you spend on their nutes per year? sorry


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## jray2469 (Dec 27, 2011)

jray2469 said:


> Sorry not trying to jack this tread but why not make your own instead?
> 
> Humic substances are formed by the microbial degradation of dead plant matter, such as lignin. They are very resistant to further biodegradation. The precise properties and structure of a given sample depend on the water or soil source and the specific conditions of extraction. Nevertheless, the average properties of humic substances from different sources are remarkably similar.Humic substances in soils and sediments can be divided into three main fractions: humic acids, fulvic acids, and humin. The humic and fulvic acids are extracted as a colloidal sol from soil and other solid phase sources into a strongly basic aqueous solution of sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide. Humic acids are precipitated from this solution by adjusting the pH to 1 with hydrochloric acid, leaving the fulvic acids in solution. This is the operational distinction between humic and fulvic acids. Humin is insoluble in dilute alkali. The alcohol-soluble portion of the humic fraction is, in general, named _ulmic acid_. Gray humic acids (GHA) are soluble in low-ionic-strength alkaline media; brown humic acids (BHA) are soluble in alkaline conditions independent of ionic strength; and fulvic acids (FA) are soluble independent of pH and I.[SUP][2][/SUP]
> Chromatography and liquid-liquid extraction can be used to separate the components that make up a humic substance. Substances identified include mono-, di-, and tri-hydroxy acids, fatty acids,dicarboxylic acids, linear alcohols, phenolic acids, and terpenoids
> Wouldn't it make sense to add Flavored jello to the tea above and get flavor and vigor dense buds? Adding the fattie <jello> part would help heal the root tips burnt off by the low dose of alcohol, which acts as a distressing agent for the plant and secondarily, promote root tips splitting off and strengthening the bulb? I have used this for many grows and gotta say it works. Just around the edge of the bucket RIGHT. trying not to get it on the main root bulb, like 24 oz to a five gallon bucket? pics are proof of some 5 footers, due to space issues, time stamped as well,how much do you spend on their nutes per year? I even reuse my foxfarm soil by adding vermiculite to it and flashing the soil with hot water> shocker huh! Ended up with a sweet tooth bush bigger than a 55 gal drum. lucky? naaa just common sense and years of fVCkln up.lol


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## MalcolmMustang (Dec 27, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Yep, still using the BioCanna. I'm about to be testing Kushman's new line of nutes. Thanks for the feedback.
> I do not add nutrients for the last two weeks, but I do give the plants a little natural sweetener (agave syrup, unrefined sugar, or brown sugar)


Sup Matt I have another question for ya. I just purchased some Humboldt Nutrients Bloom 0-10-0 and it seems to have a slight smell to it. Almost like the rotten peach smell of Prozyme or Hygrozyme. Also, there are little white specks floating on the surface of the nutes. Im about to feed with this stuff tomorrow. 

Tried calling Humboldt to ask them and I got no reply so I figured I would ask you. Is the smell normal, are the white specks normal? There is no expiration date on the bottle.

Will adding Silicon hurt my mycorrhizae and organics? I have some structural integrity from HN that I don't know if I should use or not.

Your help is 100% appreciated and I value your opinion a lot. Your are one of the few people that I trust taking advice from.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 27, 2011)

MalcolmMustang said:


> Sup Matt I have another question for ya. I just purchased some Humboldt Nutrients Bloom 0-10-0 and it seems to have a slight smell to it. Almost like the rotten peach smell of Prozyme or Hygrozyme. Also, there are little white specks floating on the surface of the nutes. Im about to feed with this stuff tomorrow.
> 
> Tried calling Humboldt to ask them and I got no reply so I figured I would ask you. Is the smell normal, are the white specks normal? There is no expiration date on the bottle.
> 
> ...


Im not sure about the white specks, but that is probably the Calcium (10% in the formula). 

Silica is all good, and won't hurt your plants. All nutes have Silica already as its a crucial element for plants. But imo Biocanna needs more.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Dec 27, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Im not sure about the white specks, but that is probably the Calcium (10% in the formula).
> 
> Silica is all good, and won't hurt your plants. All nutes have Silica already as its a crucial element for plants. But imo Biocanna needs more.


What silica have you found to work best in conjunction with biocanna? I currently have samples of silica blast so I was gonna probably give that a go.


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## Matt Rize (Dec 27, 2011)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> What silica have you found to work best in conjunction with biocanna? I currently have samples of silica blast so I was gonna probably give that a go.


all i have used it pro tekt


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## StickEnugzz (Dec 27, 2011)

Hello Matt, along those same lines...I add Aloe(3oz/gl) when I make my Alfalfa Teas. Do you feel this is a good source of Silica? If not would you point me towards something that is. The Aloe I use is a pure leaf extract from the health food store.








Saw above post after posting...thx


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## Matt Rize (Dec 27, 2011)

StickEnugzz said:


> Hello Matt, along those same lines...I add Aloe(3oz/gl) when I make my Alfalfa Teas. Do you feel this is a good source of Silica? If not would you point me towards something that is. The Aloe I use is a pure leaf extract from the health food store.
> Saw above post after posting...thx


Aloe, good stuff man. If you search this thread for aloe there is for sure some good info on it.


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## StickEnugzz (Dec 27, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> Aloe, good stuff man. If you search this thread for aloe there is for sure some good info on it.


Sounds great will do. Excellent Thread !


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## Bird Gymnastics (Dec 27, 2011)

Matt Rize said:


> all i have used it pro tekt


Pro tekt is some good stuff. Haven't used it with the bio canna but you're the veganic man! Ha ha i will have to grab some of that and hand off the samples of this stuff to some patients. Thanks again man for your knowledge


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## MalcolmMustang (Dec 28, 2011)

Thanks I appreciate the help. A couple of my plants were showing beginning signs of phos def. So I fed them with the HN Bloom tonight. I went with 2ml/gl on top of the Biocanna 3/4 strength. My last biocanna feeding was full strength and they seemed to love it but I didnt want to risk burning them. I have been feeding every watering at 14ml/gallon. Anyone else feeding every watering? I am not used to that, Im used to chem ferts.

My question is. How much of the HN Bloom do you recommend adding at the beginning of week three? Should I throw it in every time?


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## Matt Rize (Dec 29, 2011)

bout to pull this round down. rize up!
Plushberry purple pheno


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## Matt Rize (Dec 29, 2011)

MalcolmMustang said:


> Thanks I appreciate the help. A couple of my plants were showing beginning signs of phos def. So I fed them with the HN Bloom tonight. I went with 2ml/gl on top of the Biocanna 3/4 strength. My last biocanna feeding was full strength and they seemed to love it but I didnt want to risk burning them. I have been feeding every watering at 14ml/gallon. Anyone else feeding every watering? I am not used to that, Im used to chem ferts.
> 
> My question is. How much of the HN Bloom do you recommend adding at the beginning of week three? Should I throw it in every time?


dont worry about burning, the biocanna is weak. go hard with it. I am also feeding every watering.


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## MalcolmMustang (Dec 29, 2011)

Ok thanks. How much lime are you adding to your FF/happy frog soil? what other amendments are you using besides the neemcake and EWC?


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## Matt Rize (Dec 29, 2011)

MalcolmMustang said:


> Ok thanks. How much lime are you adding to your FF/happy frog soil? what other amendments are you using besides the neemcake and EWC?


uhhh. how did you know that I just switched to FF/happy frog? Did I write that here? Are you the guy from the grow store? 

But seriously, I just ran out of the soil mix I've been using for over a year so I have to make a new blend. My former mix is posted many times on this thread. When I make my new mix (probably today) I'll post what I decided to use. Mostly: kelp meal, alfalfa meal, neem cake, EWC, dolomite lime, horticultural charcoal and grade 4 perlite.


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## MalcolmMustang (Dec 29, 2011)

U mentioned it a few pages back. Is your ph staying in check with your FF/Happy frog mix or are you adding lime? I have had problems with it dropping towards the end of flower. ( too much humic?)


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## moash (Dec 29, 2011)

This makes me excited about my plushberry....
I also got Dr.Grinspoon...Have you ever tried that Matt????




Matt Rize said:


> bout to pull this round down. rize up!
> Plushberry purple pheno


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## Matt Rize (Dec 29, 2011)

MalcolmMustang said:


> U mentioned it a few pages back. Is your ph staying in check with your FF/Happy frog mix or are you adding lime? I have had problems with it dropping towards the end of flower. ( too much humic?)


I always add extra lime.


moash said:


> This makes me excited about my plushberry....
> I also got Dr.Grinspoon...Have you ever tried that Matt????


thanks moash. i have not tried the dr g.


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## NightbirdX (Dec 30, 2011)

2 TBS/gal of lime is what I go with. It works great. I mix it in at the beginning and start adding cal/mag at about week 4 of flowering. I like the lime for the beginning because it does keep you pH really well adjusted at the beginning, before you have a really established microbe colony to do it for you, but depending on how much you use, it will run out. I don't know when that is, but I started adding Cal/Mag at 5ml/gal the rest of the grow and the plants aren't dead, and are quite lovely, lol. 

On another note, It is day 60 on the PB's, Matt. Soon I will have my own purple buds and pink ladies to sample.  The pink lady is really finicky and started to flower when I took it from the cloner and transplanted it to its 1gal pot. I just uppotted them, and it is still having a hard time, but she is starting to grow 5 bladed leaves again. I don't know if I want to flower these out. I was thinking of just taking cuts from it when it had a bunch of dense normal growth and trying over. What do you think, Matt? Have you had this problem?


----------



## MalcolmMustang (Dec 30, 2011)

2 tbsp a gallon. that seems like a lot though. Are you using a mix of Ocean Forest and Happy frog? Happy frog already has lime and the Ocean forest has crushed oystershell. I was thinking of adding 1 tbsp a gallon but if you are getting good results with 2 and its in soil that already has lime let me know. I appreciate the input. Your plants look great.

Here is my next soil mix

Happy frog/ FFOF 50/50 mix
3 cups ancient forest humus
2 cups worm castings
2 tbsp Oregonism Mycorrhizae
1/2 cup Neem cake
extra perlite

all measurements are per bag of soil. what do u guys think. anything to add or take out? 

On another topic can anyone tell me if an RO system is a good investment when running veganics or do the plants prefer the ppms that unfiltered water provides? Maybe a carbon filter for removing chlorine?


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 1, 2012)

Im just starting out in my indoor garden I have bioterra plus which I ordered from canada ( 200.00$) for 2 bags but w.e im dying to try the veganics! I have the full line of biocanna and natures nectar. Im just starting to read this thread but if anyone can refer certain pages for feeding schedules and other nutes I can add Id apprecciate it. I also have HP aero and just ordered some air pots it will be interesting to compare them. thank you for all the great advice here!


----------



## Wolverine97 (Jan 2, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> Im just starting out in my indoor garden I have bioterra plus which I ordered from canada ( 200.00$) for 2 bags but w.e im dying to try the veganics! I have the full line of biocanna and natures nectar. Im just starting to read this thread but if anyone can refer certain pages for feeding schedules and other nutes I can add Id apprecciate it. I also have HP aero and just ordered some air pots it will be interesting to compare them. thank you for all the great advice here!


Wow. I could never, ever, ever justify spending that much on soil. Hope it goes well for you...


----------



## GoblinFarmer (Jan 2, 2012)

moash said:


> This makes me excited about my plushberry....
> I also got Dr.Grinspoon...Have you ever tried that Matt????


beautifull!


----------



## upthearsenal (Jan 2, 2012)

Lol, BTP is good, I used a few times, but doesn't it have bone meal? Or blood meal or something like that? I could be wrong but I feel I read that on the bag....

Good 'ol promix and kelp meal for me please.


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 2, 2012)

whats a good submersible pump for my tea mixture. I was thinking I want one with a flow control on it any suggestions?


----------



## upthearsenal (Jan 2, 2012)

One that produces large(ish) bubbles, as tiny bubbles break up fungal hyphae.

http://www.soilfoodweb.com/sfi_approach3.html


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## konagirl420 (Jan 3, 2012)

GoblinFarmer said:


> beautifull!


Heheheh still going north to get that Plushberry I was telling you about  some things just got messed up, but not that


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## konagirl420 (Jan 3, 2012)

Wow Matt really reeally Niceee I didn't even know you had plushberry too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahahaha that's real reason I was ever going up north hahahaha!!!!!


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## konagirl420 (Jan 3, 2012)

yay love the purple pheno and I am subbed now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## NightbirdX (Jan 3, 2012)

Just harvested my plushberry at day 63. (>.<)b

3 plants, 3 different phenos. So far, I think the purple pheno is my fave. Big gooey purple nugs. The pink pheno is a lot airier thank I expected, but stillvlooks great. The yields on both are looking really solid. And the smell and resin production are off the chart. We'll see after smoke report.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 3, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> 2 TBS/gal of lime is what I go with. It works great. I mix it in at the beginning and start adding cal/mag at about week 4 of flowering. I like the lime for the beginning because it does keep you pH really well adjusted at the beginning, before you have a really established microbe colony to do it for you, but depending on how much you use, it will run out. I don't know when that is, but I started adding Cal/Mag at 5ml/gal the rest of the grow and the plants aren't dead, and are quite lovely, lol.
> 
> On another note, It is day 60 on the PB's, Matt. Soon I will have my own purple buds and pink ladies to sample.  The pink lady is really finicky and started to flower when I took it from the cloner and transplanted it to its 1gal pot. I just uppotted them, and it is still having a hard time, but she is starting to grow 5 bladed leaves again. I don't know if I want to flower these out. I was thinking of just taking cuts from it when it had a bunch of dense normal growth and trying over. What do you think, Matt? Have you had this problem?


Never had that problem with the Plush. Odd. 



MalcolmMustang said:


> 2 tbsp a gallon. that seems like a lot though. Are you using a mix of Ocean Forest and Happy frog? Happy frog already has lime and the Ocean forest has crushed oystershell. I was thinking of adding 1 tbsp a gallon but if you are getting good results with 2 and its in soil that already has lime let me know. I appreciate the input. Your plants look great.
> 
> Here is my next soil mix
> 
> ...


1 tbsp/gallon of lime if good too. Im not using your blend so I cant say for sure. But I do know that dolomite lime is slow release so its hard to over do.
Neem Cake should be used in small amounts, about the same as the lime. 1/2 cup seems like a lot to me.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 3, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> Just harvested my plushberry at day 63. (>.<)b
> 
> 3 plants, 3 different phenos. So far, I think the purple pheno is my fave. Big gooey purple nugs. The pink pheno is a lot airier thank I expected, but stillvlooks great. The yields on both are looking really solid. And the smell and resin production are off the chart. We'll see after smoke report.


hmmm. i have the reverse, my pinks are dense and my purp are fluffy. goes to show what it means to grow from seeds. variety is the spice of life.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 3, 2012)

Plushberry purp pheno












rize up!


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## farmer2424 (Jan 3, 2012)

damn, i wish i could smell that through the computer. looks fine matt. + Rep. I must say, I learn more in this thread than the majority of the other threads on RUI combined. Always droppin knowledge. Keep it green boys and girls 

Saw this Pie Graph a while back on a NORML Life, thought i'd share it if you haven't already seen it View attachment 1971341


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## konagirl420 (Jan 3, 2012)

Oh Purples are my favorites!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Looks sooo wonderful and yummy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MalcolmMustang (Jan 3, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> 1 tbsp/gallon of lime if good too. Im not using your blend so I cant say for sure. But I do know that dolomite lime is slow release so its hard to over do.
> Neem Cake should be used in small amounts, about the same as the lime. 1/2 cup seems like a lot to me.


About the neemcake.. so there are about 15 gallons in a bag of soil. We are talking 1tbsp/gallon of lime added so 15 tbsp in one bag = .9375 cups. [FONT=arial, sans-serif][/FONT]So that would mean the lime would 

be added roughly 1 cup per bag of soil and if the neem cake is around the same then why would 1/2 cup per bag seem like a lot. I am just wondering, I appreciate the help because I 

have never amended my soil with neem cake before. The last thing I would want to do is put too much nitrogen in my flowering soil.


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## NightbirdX (Jan 3, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> hmmm. i have the reverse, my pinks are dense and my purp are fluffy. goes to show what it means to grow from seeds. variety is the spice of life.


Lol thats funny. The tops of the pinks are really hard and dense, but when you get about 6-8 inches down the cola, they start to get really airy, and loose. I still had some 19 inch colas though. The Purp pheno had a whole bunch of real big chunky nugs all over. I broke the tops because they started to stretch a lot so the nugs just stood up. The top I didn't break, made a decent size cola, but nothing too crazy, except for the big, gooey, dense nugs. I thought my fave was gonna be the pink pheno, but the purple one is the stand out so far. I mostly grew the Plushberry for the experience and I always like to look for new additions to the harem, I have my NYC which is the my best strain, but I like to grow some other flavors for personal stash.


----------



## konagirl420 (Jan 3, 2012)

I am sure I will like the pink ones too!!!!!


----------



## NightbirdX (Jan 3, 2012)

I mean, lets not get crazy, I'm not getting rid of it or anything.  I like to run something at least twice before I make a decision. The first time to get the feel of it, and the second time to fine tune it. If I don't like it after that, I will get phase it out. And if the high is the most amazing that I have ever had, airy or not, it isnt going anywhere. 



konagirl420 said:


> I am sure I will like the pink ones too!!!!!


You starting a set of PB's, Kona?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 4, 2012)

Plushberry pink pheno


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 4, 2012)

one more ...


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## NightbirdX (Jan 4, 2012)

Beautiful man. Looks so much like mine its hard to tell the difference.


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## konagirl420 (Jan 4, 2012)

Yes, I have been meaning to pick the cut up for a lil min now, but yes I have a friend up north with a cut of the plushberry for me...not sure of pheno...don't care really hahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can always order the seeds and select my own if I want!!!!!!!!


----------



## konagirl420 (Jan 4, 2012)

Awwwwww pink is my favorite color hahahahahaha so they both look sooooo good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## konagirl420 (Jan 4, 2012)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Matt Rize again.


----------



## NightbirdX (Jan 4, 2012)

Honestly, if you get a good representation of either pheno, you'll be happy with it. The hybrids I got were actually very small in yield, but the bud is super stinky and frosty. I am sure it will smoke great too, it just yielded low. Each of the plants are special in their own ways and will appeal to a wide variety of people. I smoked New Years Eve J of my buddies Plush and a quarter joint blew us out. We caught a cab and had a great night.


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## farmer2424 (Jan 4, 2012)

is that a bannana hiding under there in the last shot?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 4, 2012)

farmer2424 said:


> is that a bannana hiding under there in the last shot?


yeah, its the only one I found in the whole garden, had to be the bud I picked to shoot lol.


----------



## Wolverine97 (Jan 4, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> one more ...


Is that a nanner I see?
edit: should've read through before commenting... carry on


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 4, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Is that a nanner I see?
> edit: should've read through before commenting... carry on


now all i have to do is chuck that herm pollen on some OG, and I'll have a new seed company to sell my "fem" seeds... heh


----------



## NightbirdX (Jan 4, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> now all i have to do is chuck that herm pollen on some OG, and I'll have a new seed company to sell my "fem" seeds... heh


Tada!!!!!!


----------



## sharpshoota (Jan 4, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> now all i have to do is chuck that herm pollen on some OG, and I'll have a new seed company to sell my "fem" seeds... heh


haha might as well, theres a seed company popn up everyday now


----------



## Wolverine97 (Jan 4, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> now all i have to do is chuck that herm pollen on some OG, and I'll have a new seed company to sell my "fem" seeds... heh


Shit man, you may as well. That's all that most of the newer "Cali" breeders are doing anyway...


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 4, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Shit man, you may as well. That's all that most of the newer "Cali" breeders are doing anyway...


hahaha.... Matt Rize and Shiloh Massive are teaming up to introduce "Human Beans" to the market. He is an old school breeder from Mendo, using males and females, no shitting... he is also the third brain behind veganics 


Check out the stacking on my new Revere Glass "all in one" piece. Its a double gridded double shower head, so BO$$
[video=youtube;kZlHv2sXXNA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZlHv2sXXNA[/video]







rize up!


----------



## upthearsenal (Jan 4, 2012)

LOL, brains behind veganics.... are you guys trying to take over the world or something, growing without animal by-products isn't too hard, especially when it's already bottled


----------



## whitey78 (Jan 4, 2012)

Happy new year fellas. I'm wishing plush berry was one of the strains I chose but I did just start a small run of chernobyl from TGA, as well as just finished another all tga grow, wasnt lucky enough to get colors like that nor did I pick any for keepers either though. Hopefully I'll get something with some color as well as a keeper from the 6 chernobyl I cracked.

I wanted to ask how often are you guys applying the worm tea? As a drench as well as bio film/foliar? I just transplanted all of mine into their final pots and just waiting for them to get rooted up and established and then I was going to flip them but I wanted to get the soil brewing nice before doing so probably looking at least 2 more weeks of veg max I'm thinking.


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 4, 2012)

on the canna pk 13/14 when i use that do I add it to full strength canna boost and canna flores? and when should i use it and how long?


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 4, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> on the canna pk 13/14 when i use that do I add it to full strength canna boost and canna flores? and when should i use it and how long?


I have to say, I use the BioCanna line which is very different than the Canna. Maybe someone else here can answer this one. I have no experience with it.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 4, 2012)

upthearsenal said:


> LOL, brains behind veganics.... are you guys trying to take over the world or something, growing without animal by-products isn't too hard, especially when it's already bottled


this guy hatin'  lol
I think its funny you assume I meant growing when I said veganics. C'mon now...

Same video (i think), but on 4 different links.
[video=youtube;uSlaGXiZ5DQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSlaGXiZ5DQ[/video]
[video=vimeo;12689196]http://vimeo.com/12689196[/video]
[video=youtube;a_yCyK6Qt-0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_yCyK6Qt-0[/video]
[video=vimeo;12677347]http://vimeo.com/12677347[/video]


----------



## upthearsenal (Jan 5, 2012)

Friendly banter! 

You know I love what you guys do!


----------



## upthearsenal (Jan 5, 2012)

So I was reading how if you foliar feed with teas, you can actually use the leafs of freshly harvested plants to in fact make teas considering they would be full of beneficials. 

Something I should try, at least to use the tea of harvested leafs for my outdoor veggie garden, if not my entire garden.


----------



## NightbirdX (Jan 5, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> on the canna pk 13/14 when i use that do I add it to full strength canna boost and canna flores? and when should i use it and how long?


I have used Canna in the past, and yes, you stack PK 13/14 on top of full strength doses.


----------



## Guerillia Farmer (Jan 5, 2012)

moash said:


> sounds like advertisement to me...


too me aswell mate


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 5, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> I have used Canna in the past, and yes, you stack PK 13/14 on top of full strength doses.


Ok thank you
i spoke with the store rep where I bought it and he says to use it for 3-5 waterings.


----------



## NightbirdX (Jan 5, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> Ok thank you
> i spoke with the store rep where I bought it and he says to use it for 3-5 waterings.


I just used it as recommended. Be careful of build up. I used a medium to heavy feeding regimen and had a lot of salt build up when I broke the root ball apart. I also watered every other feeding. I would probably just stick with a medium schedule the whole time if I were to run their nutrient system again.


----------



## konagirl420 (Jan 5, 2012)

Hehehehhe ya I never go too heavy either!!!!


----------



## MalcolmMustang (Jan 6, 2012)

Honey Es works great instead of BioBoost.


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 6, 2012)

What's honey Es?


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 6, 2012)

MalcolmMustang said:


> Honey Es works great instead of BioBoost.


Hmmm. I'm fairly certain they have different ingredients. The BioBoost specifically is loaded with PGRs (plant growth regulators), and lacks any plant nutrition. While the Humboldt Honey ES is more of a complex carbohydrate with other plant nutrition. 


dickkhead said:


> What's honey Es?


http://www.humboldtnutrients.com/products/humboldt-honey-es/
*Product Information*

*0.45-0.25-1.8*

*Retail Prices*
*$13.40 &#8211; 16 oz.
$23.40 &#8211; 32 oz.
$73.72 &#8211; 1 gal.
$168.48 &#8211; 2.5 gal.
$301.86 &#8211; 5 gal.*
Humboldt Nutrients Humboldt Honey ES is a premium blend of cane molasses, yucca, kelp and ocean fish. This sweetener is as unique as it is strong. It increases Brix levels by providing sugars to beneficial bacteria, fungi, and your plants.
Just as the human body hosts beneficial bacteria in the digestive system, plants must host microbial life in their root zone to ensure proper digestion, growth and health. Plants feed mycorrhizal and bacterial organisms near their root zone with sugars. This is the symbiotic relationship between plants and micro organisms.
When a plant goes into a fruiting cycle they immediately divert sugars from their root zone to their fruiting bodies. It is at this time that using Humboldt Honey ES becomes most crucial. As the plant naturally channels sugars to new flowers, buds, and fruits, the microbial life in the root zone suffers and starves.
By using our thick premium Humboldt Honey ES in conjunction with our nutrient feeding schedules you not only enhance the quality, flavor and quantity of your crop, but you maintain the sugar levels in the root zone necessary for microbial life to thrive in the root zone and surrounding soil.
*Guaranteed Analysis*

Total Nitrogen (N)&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.0.45%
0.07% Ammoniacal Nitrogen
0.23% Water Soluble Nitrogen
0.15% Water Insoluble Nitrogen
Available Phosphate (P2O5)&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.&#8230;&#8230;.0.25%
Soluble Potash (K20)&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;1.80%
Derived from: Pure Cane Molasses, Volcanic Ash, Yucca extract, Seaplant Extract, _Quillaja saponaria_, and Montmorillonite.
*Directions:*

General Application: Use 1-2 tsp per gallon of water every 1-2 weeks.
Foliar Application: Use 1 (5ml) tsp per gallon of finished spray solution.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 6, 2012)

upthearsenal said:


> So I was reading how if you foliar feed with teas, you can actually use the leafs of freshly harvested plants to in fact make teas considering they would be full of beneficials.
> 
> Something I should try, at least to use the tea of harvested leafs for my outdoor veggie garden, if not my entire garden.


Very cool idea, and worth testing out. I want to know what an FPE of cannabis is like. Will that feed my plants everything they need?


----------



## Shrubs First (Jan 6, 2012)

The beautiful part of Boost and BioBoost is the Vinasse which contains high percentages of Fulvic Acids which increase
cellular permeability. Such an incredible bonus. I have used HUmboldt Honey ES for years and love it though, no complaints.

Especially with that price tag.


----------



## NightbirdX (Jan 6, 2012)

I use the humboldt honey organic and love it. Its like a super molasses. The plants love it and microbes love it, kinda a two for one.


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 6, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> I use the humboldt honey organic and love it. Its like a super molasses. The plants love it and microbes love it, kinda a two for one.


So if using the humboldt honey, do I use it alone or replace it with the molasses I was going to use with my myan micro. And do I have to bubble it with the myan stuff?


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 6, 2012)

With neem oil how often do u apply it and do u apply it in flowering? Do u dilute it with liquid dish soap? If so how much soap per liter of water?


----------



## Wolverine97 (Jan 6, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> So if using the humboldt honey, do I use it alone or replace it with the molasses I was going to use with my myan micro. And do I have to bubble it with the myan stuff?


Instead of.


----------



## Sr. Verde (Jan 6, 2012)

subbed... going to dig through this after i'm properly medicated..


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 6, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Instead of.


ok and bubble them right. also i noticed matt does feed,tea,feed,tea. if my plants need watering every day or every other would i be over feeding them if i foolow that or should some days be straight water?


----------



## NightbirdX (Jan 6, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> ok and bubble them right. also i noticed matt does feed,tea,feed,tea. if my plants need watering every day or every other would i be over feeding them if i foolow that or should some days be straight water?


I use BioCanna, Humboldt honey, and Roots excelurator every feeding. Every 3 weeks, I reinoculate by top dressing some mycorhizzae and mix a batch of humboldt honey (2 tsp/gal) and filtered water, I just started using BioAg in my inoculations also. I never bubble though. If the plants look like they need it, I put some BioCanna in. If they are doing well and I have been feeding heavy, I just use the Honey and Bio Ag


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 7, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> With neem oil how often do u apply it and do u apply it in flowering? Do u dilute it with liquid dish soap? If so how much soap per liter of water?


You can always use the search this thread feature to find this info, Im sure its on here somewhere. I'll repost just cause its doens't matter at this point. 

*Neem Oil + Karanja Oil*

*Published by Matt Rize*


From a good friend who I'll just call Professor CC
"Dyna-Gro Neem Seed Oil is a very fine product and is easily sourced around the country. Unfortunately when discussing neem oils the discussion almost always revolves around a single compound in this oil - Azadirachtin
This is pretty stupid since Azadirachtin is only 1 of 320 compounds found in neem and karanja seed oils. Specifically this compound is a terpenoid - fair enough.
Having said that, Azadirachtin is only one of 20 terpenoids found in neem and karanja trees. It would be like discussing the benefit of eating citrus fruits and simply focusing on Vitamin C - pretty stupid.
The Dyna-Gro Neem Seed Oil is a very fine product and one that I've used for several years. The level of Azadirachtin specifically is 1500 ppm as per the Dyna-Gro company. And it's a cold-pressed oil which retains much of the beneficial compounds vs. the chemical extraction process used on garbage like Azatrol and Azamax.
The neem tree products from The Ahimsa Foundation (NeemResource.com) is organic. The product comes out of Southeast India in the ancient neem groves going back to the 16th Century. The Azadirachtin levels in this specific product is 4500 ppm - i.e. 3x the levels in the Dyna-Gro Neem Seed Oil
It's human food-grade, fair trade and cheap, cheap, cheap. If you hit their web site look at the horizontal menu bar across the page and hit 'Sample Packs' of which there are 3 deals available. All of them a killer pricing.
Here's the mix that I use with their products to completely, totally, absolutely prevent mites, PM, thrips, etc.
1/2 tablespoon of organic neem oil
1/2 tablespoon of organic karanja oil
1 tablespoon of Dyna-Gro Pro-TeKt (liquid silica and is the perfect emulsifier for these oils)
Mix in a 'rock glass' until you get an even solution. Add this in small amounts to 1 gallon of TEPID water (i.e. 65F - 75F) and slowly. Higher temps diminish the effectiveness of these oils. Once you get that done you now need to add a surfactant to make this mix 'stick' to the leaves and branches.
I recommend using liquid yucca extract (again you want to get organic human food-grade meaning no preservatives) - this is available at T & J Enterprises in Spokane, Washington.
Once you have the oils and liquid silica in the spray tank add 1 oz. (2 tablespoons) of the yucca extract. Close the tank and shake as hard as you can to activate the saponins in the yucca extract.
Hit each and every leaf on the top and bottom (especially) until it looks like you haven't watered your plants for a couple of weeks, i.e. leaves hanging down and generally looking pretty sh*tty. Shut down the lights and let them sit in the dark until the next 'on cycle'
Repeat every 4 or 5 days for at least 3 applications. This will break the adult-egg-larva cycle much like dealing with fleas on you dogs and cats perhaps.
If you want you can also use organic aloe vera juice and I add 1.5 ounces (3 tablespoons) to each gallon of the neem/karanja and water mix. George's is a good product and certainly inexpensive enough. It's organic and has NO preservatives. 90% of aloe vera products do use one of the following or all of them: sodium benzoate, citric acid and potassium sorbate. Cute, eh?
Both of these neem and karanja oils are the finest that I have been able to find. If there's anything better I would be happy to check it out, i.e. I'm not closed-minded on this deal.
I can't recommend these products enough and at the price in their sample packs vs. Dyna-Gro and ESPECIALLY the sh*t from a company called 'Einstein Oil' this product provides bottom-basement pricing. Einstein Oil is $65.00 for 1 pint or $520.00 per gallon.
The organic neem oil from The Ahimsa Foundation is around $75.00 per gallon. Heh......... CC"
http://www.neemresource.com/
http://www.tandjenterprises.com/CCPRO/ecom-prodshow/yuccaextractpintwop.html


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## EirikN (Jan 7, 2012)

Seems like all of you expers like Matt Rize, subcool and such use organics, is it just because they are familiar with this method and know it or because it actually produces a better tasting product then hydro grown buds? ive heard that a good hydro grower can get the same results as a good organics grower, sorry i didnt mean to hijack the thread with hydro vs. organics discussion but im just curious!


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 7, 2012)

when do you stop applying the neem


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 7, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> Yep, still using the BioCanna. I'm about to be testing Kushman's new line of nutes. Thanks for the feedback.
> I do not add nutrients for the last two weeks, but I do give the plants a little natural sweetener (agave syrup, unrefined sugar, or brown sugar)


how much natural sweetener do you add per gallon? you run it to the finish line?



Matt Rize said:


> I always add extra lime.
> 
> Im also using farfand mix its pretty much peat and perlite, I havnt added any lime cause kyle was saying veganics has such a high ph range my plants seem to be thriving in it but how much lime would you recc i add to this? thanks dude


----------



## NightbirdX (Jan 8, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> when do you stop applying the neem


you dont wanna use neem w/in 3 weeks of harvest


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## NightbirdX (Jan 8, 2012)

Lime is a natural source of cal mag and it keeps your pH balanced. I use it at 2 tbs/gal or 1 cup/cu.ft. I find biocanna to be lacking in calmag, and unless you have a very active microbe colony the lime will help keep your pH balanced.


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## dickkhead (Jan 8, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> Lime is a natural source of cal mag and it keeps your pH balanced. I use it at 2 tbs/gal or 1 cup/cu.ft. I find biocanna to be lacking in calmag, and unless you have a very active microbe colony the lime will help keep your pH balanced.




ok i will mix at that ratio, but what if i already have plants in the farfand mix? I have the pelletized dolomite organic lime from home depot and on 2 of my plants i used the farfand mix which is peat and perlite. im thinking this needs a heavy dose of lime. should i disolve 2 tbls of the lime into a gallon of water and water with it? or would you sprinkle the pellets ontop of the soiless mix?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 8, 2012)

EirikN said:


> Seems like all of you expers like Matt Rize, subcool and such use organics, is it just because they are familiar with this method and know it or because it actually produces a better tasting product then hydro grown buds? ive heard that a good hydro grower can get the same results as a good organics grower, sorry i didnt mean to hijack the thread with hydro vs. organics discussion but im just curious!


Well, 15 years of smoking herb and I've never found a chemically grown flower that I liked. I can tell the difference in the smoke, its harsh. 



dickkhead said:


> when do you stop applying the neem


4 weeks from harvest is my general rule


NightbirdX said:


> you dont wanna use neem w/in 3 weeks of harvest


3 weeks is good too. Thanks NightbirdX


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## dickkhead (Jan 8, 2012)

thanks matt what about the lime?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 8, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> thanks matt what about the lime?


I mix it in, about a TBSP per gallon of soil. 

From guru CC

*CC on Liming Amendments*

*Published by Matt Rize*


Rize up CC. Thanks for the knowledge.
"Liming Amendments...
Here's the deal on liming agents.
Calcium Carbonate Amendments
These are the 3 major forms of Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3)
Limestone - (this is what chemical reps refer to as Agricultural Lime) and will usually have a Calcium Carbonate level between 83 - 95% depending on which specific mine the product is coming out of. Limestone (Agricultural Lime) will also have a small amount of Magnesium (Mg) - about 3 - 5% depending again on which mine is the source
Calcitic Lime - this is pure Calcium Carbonate - usually around 95% and contains no traceable amount of Magnesium
Oyster Shell Powder - another pure form of Calcium Carbonate. This product is NOT from oyster shells from Happy Hour at Red Lobster. This is a specific product that is mined in the San Francisco Bay and has been since the 1920's. This is the product most often used by poultry producers, worm operations, etc. It carries a label showing 96% Calcium Carbonate
When figuring the amount of actual Calcium (Ca) when using the carbonate limes, take the total amount and multiply by 38.5% and that will (approximately) give you the actual Calcium levels.
Dolomite Lime - Calcium Magnesium Carbonate contains elemental Calcium (not Calcium Carbonate) so the numbers on the product will reflect the actual Calcium levels. The Magnesium Carbonate component is tightly bound to the elemental Calcium resulting in a much longer time period required for the Calcium to become available.
Gypsum - Calcium Sulfate Dihydrate contains both Sulfur Oxide and elemental Calcium. When broken down by microbes the sulfur releases Hydrogen (H) which will lower the pH (if necessary) and also contains Calcium which can raise the pH (again if necessary) - see Base Saturation and CeC
A typical liming agent used by organic farmers is something like this:
2x Calcium Carbonate
1x Dolomite Lime
1x Gypsum
Mix and add at the same rate if you were using a single agent.
At HomeDepot last night I looked at their products in the nursery section.
Soil Sweet - Dolomite Lime and it was less than $6.00 for 25 lbs.
Super Sweet - Limestone at around the same price
Gypsum - $8.95 for 50 lbs.
Choose your poison.
Prilled vs. Pelletized
Prilled soil amendments are coming and will eventually replace the powdered versions due to a finding by the Labor Department as it relates to worker safety. It will come to the retail market soon enough.
Prilled (as Dignan pointed out) is simply any agent that is coated with a clay thereby reducing the dust issue(s) which makes it far easier to apply to several hundred/thousand acres. The clay used for prilling processes is easily removed by water.
Pelletized is the same thing but the coating is applied thicker and a different clay is used which gives the farmer a longer source as it takes a couple of years to breakdown to the point where the actual amendment is NOW available to the soil biology to breakdown and use. You will never find this at a retail nursery.
CC"


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## konagirl420 (Jan 9, 2012)

Looks nice all around!!!!!! !!!!!


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## konagirl420 (Jan 9, 2012)

I just can't rep anyone  You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.


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## dirrtyd (Jan 9, 2012)

CC would that be clackamas coot? on IC I read alot of his posts very informative. keepem green dirrtyd


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## Matt Rize (Jan 9, 2012)

dirrtyd said:


> CC would that be clackamas coot? on IC I read alot of his posts very informative. keepem green dirrtyd


He goes by many names on many sites. And yes, Clack is the man, although he is my personal troll when I leave RIU


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## malignant (Jan 9, 2012)

isnt canna chem?


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## Wolverine97 (Jan 9, 2012)

malignant said:


> isnt canna chem?


Not Bio Canna...


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## Matt Rize (Jan 9, 2012)

not sure where the liquid silica falls but im all about it. everything else, organic.


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## Sr. Verde (Jan 9, 2012)

My plants always need cal mag.. I add it to the water every time though and it keeps them fed.


Next time I might just add some lime along with perlite into my soil.. See if it gives me some better fed plants


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## konagirl420 (Jan 9, 2012)

Sr. Verde said:


> My plants always need cal mag.. I add it to the water every time though and it keeps them fed.
> 
> 
> Next time I might just add some lime along with perlite into my soil.. See if it gives me some better fed plants


Hahahahaha Love your avatar and your sig!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## NightbirdX (Jan 9, 2012)

Yes, Canna is chem.


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## MalcolmMustang (Jan 11, 2012)

Whats up guys, everythings goin real smooth with the Biocanna. For those of you using soft rock phosphate like HN Bloom, along with the biocanna. What week do you stop using the soft rock, hygrozyme and silica for best flavor?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 11, 2012)

and this is what I do when I should be in the garden.... procrastidabbing

[video=youtube;qHuMJ59u9r8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHuMJ59u9r8[/video]


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## whitey78 (Jan 11, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> and this is what I do when I should be in the garden.... procrastidabbing
> 
> [video=youtube;qHuMJ59u9r8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHuMJ59u9r8[/video]


I was waiting for one those blackout plow into the camera head first sessions when you hoped off, LOL... I wasnt hoping for that but I was imaging how I'd feel after that...


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## dickkhead (Jan 11, 2012)

I ve been searching this thread and dont see the mix directions for the myan michronize and humboldt honey someone help me with mixing and feeding schedules with that and the biocanna thanks


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## Matt Rize (Jan 11, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> I ve been searching this thread and dont see the mix directions for the myan michronize and humboldt honey someone help me with mixing and feeding schedules with that and the biocanna thanks


just follow the directions on the bottle. the mayan is an inoculant, i use it once late in veg. the honey is just a complex sugar/food source and can be used throughout growth


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## dickkhead (Jan 11, 2012)

ok when i bubble the myan and the honey like it says on the bottle do i water with that straight or should i dilute it? and is tap water ok to use? and if im using the humboldt what else should i bubble it with in place of the mayan? thanks dude


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## Matt Rize (Jan 11, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> ok when i bubble the myan and the honey like it says on the bottle do i water with that straight or should i dilute it? and is tap water ok to use? and if im using the humboldt what else should i bubble it with in place of the mayan? thanks dude


its says on the bottle what to do, and how to dilute it. i think its 1:10 or something but have not looked in a while. 
I would not use tap water, I would use RO water or store bought purified water.

not sure what you are asking in the last part so Im going to spell it out really clear again.

Mayan is a living inoculant NOT A NUTRIENT. You use this as an inoculant, and really its a giant waste of money, just like the humboldt honey. You brew it like tea, all the direction are on the bottle, dont be lazy read that shit, they put it there for a reason. Google it, its online too. 

Then fast forward to real organics, get rid of everything from Humboldt nutrients, and make real compost teas using compost and molasses. You are paying for fancy labels.


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## dickkhead (Jan 11, 2012)

thanks for answering im new to this shit. no need to be lippy!


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## Matt Rize (Jan 11, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> thanks for answering im new to this shit. no need to be lippy!


sorry... i could have sworn we've been over mayan like 100 times already. could be my mistake.


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## dickkhead (Jan 11, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> sorry... i could have sworn we've been over mayan like 100 times already. could be my mistake.


 no problem sorry for the stupid questions im new and want to get it right from the get go. I searched myan on here and it wouldnt pop up. but im gna use up the humboldt nutes while i look into how to brew the compost and molasses teas. any idea when kyles book is coming out? or his dvd?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 11, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> no problem sorry for the stupid questions im new and want to get it right from the get go. I searched myan on here and it wouldnt pop up. but im gna use up the humboldt nutes while i look into how to brew the compost and molasses teas. any idea when kyles book is coming out? or his dvd?


ugh....
the book, which I wrote a 1/3 of, is not done, the publisher wants more basic info, and we went all advanced.

the movie is also having some issues being completed. i have nothing to do with the movie just fyi, i hate the camera. 

sorry for taking so long... but the info in this thread is more than we could fit into any book or movie.

ps Kushman's line of nutes is almost done with testing.


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## dickkhead (Jan 11, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> ugh....
> the book, which I wrote a 1/3 of, is not done, the publisher wants more basic info, and we went all advanced.
> 
> the movie is also having some issues being completed. i have nothing to do with the movie just fyi, i hate the camera.
> ...


no doubt! looking forward to trying his line will it be cheaper then biocanna and as comparable?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 11, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> no doubt! looking forward to trying his line will it be cheaper then biocanna and as comparable?


i really have no stake or part in this. i don't know numbers, but assume it will be cheaper because biocanna is ridiculously expensive. 

comparable, that is his claim so far. ill score a nug and make a video review of it next time we kick it.


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## dickkhead (Jan 11, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> i really have no stake or part in this. i don't know numbers, but assume it will be cheaper because biocanna is ridiculously expensive.
> 
> comparable, that is his claim so far. ill score a nug and make a video review of it next time we kick it.


sounds good keep us posted!


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## apollo4 (Jan 11, 2012)

thanks Matt,keep up the work.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 11, 2012)

apollo4 said:


> thanks Matt,keep up the work.


thanks for the feedback. rize up! (hoody)


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## MalcolmMustang (Jan 12, 2012)

Phosphorus solubilizing microbes are being decreased by the use of neemcake so use sparingly. Apparently it is good for harboring fungi and ammonifying bacteria. Here is a good article. Just ordered some cake from the Neemresource so im studying.


*Microbiological changes during decomposition of wheat straw and neem cake in soil. *
Das, AC | Mukherjee, D
*Environment and Ecology. Vol. 8, no. 3, pp. 1012-1015. 1990. *

Wheat straw and neem cake were applied to soil at the rate of 1.0, 0.5, 0.25% respectively, on soil weight basis to investigate their effect on the proliferation of total bacteria, non-symbiotic nitrogen fixing bacteria, fungi, actinomycetes, phosphorus solubilizing microorganisms and ammonifying bacteria in alluvial soil. Different groups of microorganisms responded differently to the addition of wheat straw and neem cake in soil. Total and non-symbiotic nitrogen fixing bacterial population increased by the application of wheat straw in soil. The said organisms progressively increased with higher rates of application. Neem cake reduced the population of above mentioned organisms. Neem cake harbored more fungi and ammonifying bacteria while wheat straw supported more actinomycetes. Phosphorus solubilizing microbial population progressively increased with higher and lower levels of wheat straw and neem cake, respectively.

*Descriptors:* *Article Subject Terms* agricultural wastes | decomposition | nitrogen-fixing bacteria | soil amendment | soil microorganisms | *Article Taxonomic Terms* Azadirachta indica | *Article Geographic Terms* India


Another good read

*STUDIES ON NEEM CAKE AS SOURCE OF NITROGEN ITS EFFECT ON SOIL, MICROBES AND AS AN INHIBITOR OF PESTICIDES DEGRADATION*




Akhtar, Shahida (1994) _STUDIES ON NEEM CAKE AS SOURCE OF NITROGEN ITS EFFECT ON SOIL, MICROBES AND AS AN INHIBITOR OF PESTICIDES DEGRADATION._ PhD thesis, University of Karachi, Karachi.​
HTML
14Kb
*Abstract*

Poor management of eco-system in Pakistan is the main source of environmental degradation, the major being soil and water. Massive use of agro-chemicals involves the risk of interfering with the quality of eco-system, dangerous from fertility and pollution point of view To cope with the situation, and to overcome environmental harzards within our own resources, the research on neem cake ( a product left-after oil extraction from neem seeds) was initiated to find its property as a fertilizer. General observation revealed that neem cake is a good nitrogen source; when experiments were conducted in-vitro. Paddy soil supplemented with neem cake (n-hexane extracted) at the rate of 1% and 5% (W/W) produced two and four times higher ammonia nitrogen than un-supplemented soil, respectively after 10 days of application._ However nitrogen release was delayed if the soil was supplemented with the ground neem cake._ The expeller extracted neem cake gave a slight and slow formation of ammonia nitrogen after 10 days with 5% & 10% amendment, neem seed powder after 15 days & the water extracted neem cake after 30 days, whereas no response of ammonia nitrogen production was observed with neem oil, amendment The studies on the effect of both type of neem cakes (n-hexane extracted & expeller extracted) on symbiotic and non-symbiotic nitrogen fixing bacteria have revealed that it had n-adverse effect on its growth with the exception that n-hexan extracted neem cake stimulated the growth of certain species of Rhizobium-in vitro Investigations regarding the effect on the inhibition degradation of insecticides (Carbofuran 3G, Thiodan 35EC and Basudin 10G) revealed that neem cake amendment alongwith insecticide fortification increased the persistence of all the three insecticides from their normal are responsible for the degradation of these insecticides. The natural balance of some micro-organisms is disturbed by the addition of neem cake which helps in avoiding degradation of these insecticides, ultimate the persistent percentage increases Keeping in view of the various aspects studies in vitro, neem cake if used in field will not have any adverse effect in the environment. The utilization of this product must be made aware to the farmers as neem tree is a native of Indo-Pak Sub-Continent. Use of neem products in agriculture will be a step toweads self-help and minimize environmental pollution due to the indiscriminate use of chemical fertilizers. It is better to switch over to organic matter as fertilizer which is over to organic matter as fertilizer which is the basis of green revolution​
Item Type:Thesis (PhD)Uncontrolled Keywords:neem cake, nitrogen, microbes, pesticides, neem seeds, fertilizer, insecticides, soil microbial biomass, carbofuran residu, endosulfan, diazinon residueSubjects:Biological & Medical Sciences (c) > Biological Sciences(c1) > Microbiology(c1.ID Code:1221Deposited By:Mr. Muhammad AsifDeposited On:04 Jan 2007Last Modified:04 Oct 2007 21:05



Also interesting how neemcake will supply nitrogen to the soil but the release is delayed if the neem cake is ground up. Usually its the other way around with more surface area exposed.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Jan 12, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> thanks for the feedback. rize up! (hoody)


Better not be posting these unless you have them available  ha ha write me down for one of these too.


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## Da Almighty Jew (Jan 16, 2012)

Hey Matt i have a question about organics and ph and i thought you would proably know this. I have a organic soil garden and i was wondering will using general hydroponics ph up and down powder cause salt build up in my soil from it? will the gen hydro ph powder do anything bad to my soil? what organic ph adjustments do you recommend? thanks


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## Ponicengineer (Jan 16, 2012)

Matt, 

Is there any possibility of publishing the advanced version of your book on amazon for kindle download / purchase ? I'd really love to see a heightened view of veganics and soil culture in general. 

Thank You,
-PE


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## blueJ (Jan 17, 2012)

Holy Crap!!! two weeks or so later and WAY too much time at my day job spent on this thread, but i finished it!

Gotta go home now to my 2nd job (and my true love), so after a veganic bowl or two i will be back.

Matt, nightbird, wolverine, uptheA, i feel like i know you all! LOL i've been posting over on IC most recently, then found this, i'll have some pics and my experiences up later. Just excited to have learned so much already on this thread and ready to contribute (i forced myself to finish before i posted!)


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## Wolverine97 (Jan 17, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Holy Crap!!! two weeks or so later and WAY too much time at my day job spent on this thread, but i finished it!
> 
> Gotta go home now to my 2nd job (and my true love), so after a veganic bowl or two i will be back.
> 
> Matt, nightbird, wolverine, uptheA, i feel like i know you all! LOL i've been posting over on IC most recently, then found this, i'll have some pics and my experiences up later. Just excited to have learned so much already on this thread and ready to contribute (i forced myself to finish before i posted!)


Glad you took the time to read it, there's a lot of good discussion on this thread without much bullshit and trolling.


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## blueJ (Jan 17, 2012)

Yeah for anyone needing current info on indoor vegan organic / plant based growing man i think this is the place! But for real, do a quick search if you need some info, the last 20 to 30 pages here have gotten too muddied with redundancy in the questions and what not, this place might lose it's steam, as far as being like an easily maneuverable catalog of info on the the options out for the nutes/supps/media etc., but whatever. 

I'm in my 2nd & 3rd run with this style of growing and it's had it's learning curves and shit i'm still learning and need to get the ladies dialed in all the way through, but regardless, i have grown the best damn flowers, of my life, and look forward to it only getting better!

Sour BMR aka Blush aka Blue Kush (Bogs Sour Bubble X Blue Moon Rocks), my sour blueberry lady =), in love, i fuckin' swear, best smelling best tasting potent clear dynamic, man damnit, i swear i'm never going back, haha!


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## blueJ (Jan 18, 2012)

This first one is my Sour Blueberry lady - fresh blueberry smell & taste. The 2nd two are Sour Bubble purple pheno. 


These are from my first run in pure Coconot with cannabio vega/flores/boost, soluble seaweed, HN 0-10-0 & molasses oh and hygrozyme & calmag+ using RO water. These are my two keepers from these strains, there is one more blush i am keeping, for the time being, as it is the most potent cannabis i have ever smoked (i really want to get it tested), but it's veg time needed is ridiculously long. The other phenos all showed real bad deficiencies which i now attribute to very low PH in my bloom feedings (low 4.0's). I figured maybe the coconot lost its gusto once it got a few weeks into flower and without adjusting the PH it just went downhill from there. (thoughts? if you're so inclined, check out my "mid-flower issues" thread in the cannabis infirmary on icmag, i am BlueJayWay over there) seemed like all or most of the feedback i got over there was from chem and/or hydro growers so yeah, not a lot of help....

My 2nd run i mixed 50/50 coconot and happy frog, cut it with 20% chunky perlite, added dolomite lime, vermiblend compost, alfalfa meal. Using Mykos in transplants, teas with EWC or the compost & molasses. Foliar with cold pressed seaweed extract, alternating neem oil. Switched to GO calmag to avoid the EDTA Iron & to keep it more organic, added rhizotonic, want to pick up some protekt. Oh yeah, i ordered the fullpower, TM7 and the vam-endo from bioag, looking forward to gettin' those in the mix! I don't like using so much shit, honesty, but in the right amounts & at the right time i think it's beneficial to give your garden a good variety, even of the same nutes but from difference sources, ya feel me?

A couple more runs and i feel like i'll get shit dialed in....

Here's my knock you on your arse Blush, that musky kush/earthy flavor is so strong it makes me sneeze with big bong rips, that happen to you? LOL


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## upthearsenal (Jan 18, 2012)

Hey blueJ! Those are some absolutely beautiful looking buds! 

You're doing really well and it's awesome to have you here on the thread, and big props for taking the time to read the whole thing, not many do


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## NightbirdX (Jan 18, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Holy Crap!!! two weeks or so later and WAY too much time at my day job spent on this thread, but i finished it!
> 
> Gotta go home now to my 2nd job (and my true love), so after a veganic bowl or two i will be back.
> 
> Matt, nightbird, wolverine, uptheA, i feel like i know you all! LOL i've been posting over on IC most recently, then found this, i'll have some pics and my experiences up later. Just excited to have learned so much already on this thread and ready to contribute (i forced myself to finish before i posted!)


It most assuredly has been a journey. Its funny to look back now and see what I was whinimg about.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 19, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> sorry... i could have sworn we've been over mayan like 100 times already. could be my mistake.


yeah this thread is getting pretty redundant, no offense
same questions same answers lol
but man is it LOADED with FREE info. 

people take time and read it!!! and read rize's blog!!


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## Matt Rize (Jan 20, 2012)

I just got back from Canadia. Will reply to these posts later. Nice looking buds blueJ


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## Digispliff (Jan 23, 2012)

sharpshoota said:


> yeah this thread is getting pretty redundant, no offense
> same questions same answers lol
> but man is it LOADED with FREE info.
> 
> people take time and read it!!! and read rize's blog!!


Maybe we could take the first post in this thread and use it to compile the collective knowledge that this thread has unearthed? Even if it just included a list of usual veganic nutrients/additives, feeding strengths, and soil mixes (including info on neem cakes and such), etc, we'd be dealing with a lot fewer repetitive questions. I've been following this thread since day 1, but we can't expect everyone who has a short question about veganics to slog through 166 pages. 

Just a thought. I know it makes more work for people who aren't me, but it would definitely cut down on the number of redundant questions.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 24, 2012)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> Hey Matt i have a question about organics and ph and i thought you would proably know this. I have a organic soil garden and i was wondering will using general hydroponics ph up and down powder cause salt build up in my soil from it? will the gen hydro ph powder do anything bad to my soil? what organic ph adjustments do you recommend? thanks


I don't think using small amounts of pH adjusters have a negative impact on your garden. I use earth juice's pH down, and I never need pH up. 
Lately my pH has been around 5.9 using RO water and my nutes.


Ponicengineer said:


> Matt,
> 
> Is there any possibility of publishing the advanced version of your book on amazon for kindle download / purchase ? I'd really love to see a heightened view of veganics and soil culture in general.
> 
> ...


Sorry brah. Its Kushman's book, and High Times wants a few more chapters before they publish it. On top of that, I'm just too damn busy making ice water extracts to volunteer time right now. Unfortunately the book and movie are still in the works. 



blueJ said:


> Holy Crap!!! two weeks or so later and WAY too much time at my day job spent on this thread, but i finished it!
> 
> Gotta go home now to my 2nd job (and my true love), so after a veganic bowl or two i will be back.
> 
> Matt, nightbird, wolverine, uptheA, i feel like i know you all! LOL i've been posting over on IC most recently, then found this, i'll have some pics and my experiences up later. Just excited to have learned so much already on this thread and ready to contribute (i forced myself to finish before i posted!)


Fark ic... welcome to RIU, where you can post whatever you want without being modded. 



blueJ said:


> Yeah for anyone needing current info on indoor vegan organic / plant based growing man i think this is the place! But for real, do a quick search if you need some info, the last 20 to 30 pages here have gotten too muddied with redundancy in the questions and what not, this place might lose it's steam, as far as being like an easily maneuverable catalog of info on the the options out for the nutes/supps/media etc., but whatever.
> 
> I'm in my 2nd & 3rd run with this style of growing and it's had it's learning curves and shit i'm still learning and need to get the ladies dialed in all the way through, but regardless, i have grown the best damn flowers, of my life, and look forward to it only getting better!
> 
> ...


Welcome to the thread... sick pics!



sharpshoota said:


> yeah this thread is getting pretty redundant, no offense
> same questions same answers lol
> but man is it LOADED with FREE info.
> 
> people take time and read it!!! and read rize's blog!!


LOL thanks brah. No worries, when I got the sticky I assumed we would pick up some new veganic farmers.


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## dickkhead (Jan 24, 2012)

Im not seeing anything regarding soy protein when i search here is it beneficial to use? seems as though the plants like carbs! what about protein or fat sources, like oils??


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## cory flagg (Jan 24, 2012)

great thread bro, just moved to vegan.


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## Matt Rize (Jan 25, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> Im not seeing anything regarding soy protein when i search here is it beneficial to use? seems as though the plants like carbs! what about protein or fat sources, like oils??


Soy is what Natures Nectar uses for their Nitrogen formula. Also BioLink. I have some issues in general with the way soy is farmed (not as bad as cottonseed, but not as good as kelp or alfalfa meals), but it is a solid vegan N source.


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## blueJ (Jan 26, 2012)

I was at the big health food store yesterday, Clarks, which is also a big organic mega-vitamin/supplement store, and i was surprised how much stuff there is for "us humans" that we also feed to our gardens.

CalMag+ in every form, i don't think it would be any better, looks to be the same shit just more expensive.

What would be better if using yucca, the 100% pure yucca "juice" or the "gel"

All kinds of agave syrups, organic molasses'

and check out this http://www.healthforce.com/shop?page=shop.product_details&flypage=garden_flypage.tpl&product_id=6&category_id=1

they have a product called vitamineral green, look at the ingredients, so many that we feed (or can feed) to the garden, wonder if the plants would like this as much as it says we would?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 26, 2012)

blueJ said:


> I was at the big health food store yesterday, Clarks, which is also a big organic mega-vitamin/supplement store, and i was surprised how much stuff there is for "us humans" that we also feed to our gardens.
> 
> CalMag+ in every form, i don't think it would be any better, looks to be the same shit just more expensive.
> 
> ...


The CalMag for humans is probably higher quality than the plant CalMag. 
Pure yucca juice is better than the gel. Look for a yucca without preservative. T&J Enterprises makes the best one, order it online.
I've been using the agave syrup in my garden recently. With or in place of molasses. 

I'll have to check out the mineralgreen.


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## farmer2424 (Jan 26, 2012)

glad to hear your a organics Mod now. saw it in WN episode 27. when u guys getting together to do an episode?


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## Matt Rize (Jan 26, 2012)

farmer2424 said:


> glad to hear your a organics Mod now. saw it in WN episode 27. when u guys getting together to do an episode?


shh! LOL 

Not soon enough, Sub is the man and I look forward to our next meeting.
My Flav plants (from seed) are about 3 weeks into flower, I'll try to put some pics up tonight.

Weed Nerd Episode #27. Breeding and Males:
[video=youtube;WIxx0LrmgwA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIxx0LrmgwA[/video]


----------



## Dank Raptor (Jan 26, 2012)

95% Veganic grower here. Anyone else out there bubbling your Biocanna overnight before feeding? I have found that it helps the ph to raise a bit and gives the benis a jump start on breaking it down.


----------



## NightbirdX (Jan 27, 2012)

Dank Raptor said:


> 95% Veganic grower here. Anyone else out there bubbling your Biocanna overnight before feeding? I have found that it helps the ph to raise a bit and gives the benis a jump start on breaking it down.


I bubble it for about 10 mins to let it mix well. I have never let it go overnight though. I thought about addingn some powdered myco and letting it sit overnight, just never done it.


----------



## Buddy Hemphill (Jan 27, 2012)

dont flame me.

I am trying to find substitutes for the AN products I am still using.

This may sound silly but my plants love B52. We are hooked on it.

What do you guys use for B vits and amino's?


----------



## NightbirdX (Jan 27, 2012)

Thrive alive green?


----------



## sharpshoota (Jan 27, 2012)

braggs liquid amino acids in your health food store for the aminos


----------



## Da Almighty Jew (Jan 28, 2012)

Hey matt what up bro. im hoping you might know what def this is. or maybe somebody else could help me. thanks!
Its on a 4 week old nlx skunk (attitude freebe, anybody remember who breeder was?).
none of my other strains are showing anything wrong with them (querkle, sweeth tooth, indica viper)
under 400 watt hps
roots organic wth dolomite and azomite.
i have used about a half tablespoon total of epsom salts with other waterings

last feed was with maxicrop liquid fish 5ml per gal
indonesian bat guano 0.2, 13, 0.3 half tablespoon per 3 gallons
natures nectar potassium half tablspoon per 3gal
botanicare cal mag teaspoon per gal ( prior waterings i used like 2ml per gal) - maybe cal/mag def?
diamon nectar teaspoon per gal
pro tekt silicon 2ml per gal
florablend teaspoon per gal
floralicious 1 ml per gal
roots excellerator 1 ml per gal
molasses hi brix half tablespoon per 3 gal
super thrive drop per gal
hygrozyme 5 ml per gal


----------



## Dank Raptor (Jan 28, 2012)

Looks like they need a little more phosphorus. Too much Iron and zinc is what can cause defenciencies but I would hardly call it that. Your plant is just telling you it needs stronger feedings.


----------



## Da Almighty Jew (Jan 28, 2012)

Dank Raptor said:


> Looks like they need a little more phosphorus. Too much Iron and zinc is what can cause defenciencies but I would hardly call it that. Your plant is just telling you it needs stronger feedings.


really? P def? im scared to use too much of the indonesian bat guano 0.2 13 0.1(it burns easy) but i think i will up it to at least teaspoon per gal


----------



## summitoker (Jan 30, 2012)

So between the disp.grow and my personal grow i have been doing a lot of testing with biocanna and feeding schedules. To sum it up,
Transition feeding- switching to full strength flores around day 7-10 gives superior budset and yield. Supplement with natures nectar N for the heavy nitrogen feeders. Feeding biovega for to long, like kushman says into the 20's, results in leafy buds and less yield. The plants being fed flores have heavier budset at day 16 than the plants on vega have at day 21.


----------



## blueJ (Jan 30, 2012)

HHHmmmmm, yeah i'm having trouble losing N too soon in flower, way too soon, so I was going to transition to flores later in flower, or slower at least. I like that idea though and i do have a bottle of nectar N that could serve that purpose. In the past i have always switched to bloom feeding immediately when switching to 12/12 and on top of that gave a bloom "boost", essentially just a real heavy feeding to kickstart budset. 

I


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 30, 2012)

I used bio vega and NN till day 14. 1 is in a soil mix from farfand that is still green at day 30!. the other is a peat perlite mix from farand that is showing some yellowing so maybe i should fead a lil longer with that one?


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 30, 2012)

Does anyone have any idea when bioterra plus will be available? Or where I can get it? Has anyone tried the canna cocoa medium and nutes if so do u reccomend?


----------



## NightbirdX (Jan 31, 2012)

I"ve been hammering week 1 and 2 with Vega, Budswel Yellow and innoculation during week 3, and then Start Flores at week 3.5-4. I take week 3 off of Bio Canna to reinnoculate and bump Phos levels. Budswell is pretty thin so it is nice to eat up the build up during week 3.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 31, 2012)

blueJ said:


> HHHmmmmm, yeah i'm having trouble losing N too soon in flower, way too soon, so I was going to transition to flores later in flower, or slower at least. I like that idea though and i do have a bottle of nectar N that could serve that purpose. In the past i have always switched to bloom feeding immediately when switching to 12/12 and on top of that gave a bloom "boost", essentially just a real heavy feeding to kickstart budset.
> 
> I


typical for following the biocanna feed chart. I transition over to flower during weeks one and two of flower.


----------



## farmer2424 (Jan 31, 2012)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> really? P def? im scared to use too much of the indonesian bat guano 0.2 13 0.1(it burns easy) but i think i will up it to at least teaspoon per gal


I wouldn't be too worried about burning, i topdressed outdoors with it and amended my indoor with it ( just eyed it out application), but gave them quite a bit and My jack herer which was a bit nute sensitive didn't even burn. try topdressing each plant and incorporating it into the first inch or soil so it doesn't just wash into a pocket. I layer most of my amendment in the bottom half of my pots like Subcool does his supersoil. that way they get the nutes when they're ready and they don't prematurely use them up.


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 31, 2012)

if I ordered the boi ag vam would it hurt to add the extreme gardening azos? and if I ordered the mykos from extreme is it the reg mykos or mykos 30?


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 31, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> if I ordered the boi ag vam would it hurt to add the extreme gardening azos? and if I ordered the mykos from extreme is it the reg mykos or mykos 30?


Very interesting question. I would assume that mixing inoculants is all good.


----------



## Wolverine97 (Jan 31, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> if I ordered the boi ag vam would it hurt to add the extreme gardening azos? and if I ordered the mykos from extreme is it the reg mykos or mykos 30?


My only comment is that you want the straight Mykos, not Mykos 30 (contains fertilizer also).


----------



## NightbirdX (Jan 31, 2012)

I am using the Azos and Mykos. Nothing like it on the market that I have tried. I haven't tried the vam, but i have never seen roots go so crazy. I sprinkle the Azos on a wetted rootball during a transplant and within a few days I see thick white roots coming through the drainage holes of the next size pot. Way crazy. I use the Mykos granular to mix into my soil as it cooks. 10TBS/cu ft. Everything runs much smother using these products and I owe a big thanks to Wolverine for showing me these.


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 31, 2012)

And I'm sorry but what does EWC stand for that you guys are bubbling with molasses?


----------



## Wolverine97 (Jan 31, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> I am using the Azos and Mykos. Nothing like it on the market that I have tried. I haven't tried the vam, but i have never seen roots go so crazy. I sprinkle the Azos on a wetted rootball during a transplant and within a few days I see thick white roots coming through the drainage holes of the next size pot. Way crazy. I use the Mykos granular to mix into my soil as it cooks. 10TBS/cu ft. Everything runs much smother using these products and I owe a big thanks to Wolverine for showing me these.


I'm glad they're working out for you man. We should hook up before I leave for JA...


----------



## Wolverine97 (Jan 31, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> And I'm sorry but what does EWC stand for that you guys are bubbling with molasses?


All you have to do is read...


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 31, 2012)

I'm psyched to try these out and yes I owe a big thanks to all you guys on this thread it's so informative!!


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 31, 2012)

thanks for answering now that i had to keep reading EARTH WORM CASTINGS


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 31, 2012)

Btw Bioterra plus was cleared by to enter back in us 
and should be available by late march from what I've heard!


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 31, 2012)

how much karanja cake per gallon are u using?


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 31, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> how much karanja cake per gallon are u using?


I actually have not used the karanja cake. But I am using the neem cake, about a tsp per gallon... or not much.


----------



## SlightlyVaped (Jan 31, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> Btw Bioterra plus was cleared by to enter back in us
> and should be available by late march from what I've heard!


Is this the old recipe or a new one? 

Last time I talked with a Canna Rep I was told the US would not allow a few of their ingredients to be imported (European peat I believe was one) and they were working on creating a new version for the US market with an initial vegan charge instead of the animal byproduct they were using. 

This was last summer sometime so things could of changed, but he did give a early-mid 2012 time frame.


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 31, 2012)

good question. I called a local canna dealer in my area and they said that it was cleared by the fda to enter the us. and they plan on stocking it in march


----------



## dickkhead (Jan 31, 2012)

for a tea does this sound ok? add what u think is missing

1tbl/gal bioag vam mykos
2tbl/gal blackstrap organic molasses
2 cups ewc/ 5 gallons of watter

should I add fish hydrosolate and kelp meal?


----------



## sharpshoota (Jan 31, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> for a tea does this sound ok? add what u think is missing
> 
> 1tbl/gal bioag vam mykos
> 2tbl/gal blackstrap organic molasses
> ...


yes and yes. heres a good link 

http://medicalmarijuana.com/experts/expert/title.cfm?artID=64

also adding different organic material will create either fungal or bacterial dominate teas, get your google on and educate yourself, its the best way.. no offense


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 31, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> good question. I called a local canna dealer in my area and they said that it was cleared by the fda to enter the us. and they plan on stocking it in march


For farks sake I just ran out of my BTP stash, and I switched it up to some foxfarms, the plants are not loving it thats for sure. If the BioTerra Plus comes back that will be some great news.


----------



## SlightlyVaped (Jan 31, 2012)

Which fox farm soil?

I have been using a 70/30 mix of Happy Frog/Canna Coco for over a year now with no issues.


----------



## Matt Rize (Jan 31, 2012)

SlightlyVaped said:


> Which fox farm soil?
> 
> I have been using a 70/30 mix of Happy Frog/Canna Coco for over a year now with no issues.


I mixed happy frog with ocean forest, neither of which are vegan. Those two, mostly happy frog, mixed with grade 4 perlite, EWC, compost, neem cake, dolomite lime, vegan meal (cottonseed, alfalfa, kelp), inoculant, biochar, i forget what else...


----------



## SlightlyVaped (Jan 31, 2012)

Oh I know it's not vegan, but nothing is so what are you going to do...

From my understanding the Ocean Forest is hotter than the Happy Frog, have you tried cutting out the Ocean Forest in your mix?

How much of a nutrient charge is in BTP? I am assuming we are trying to come as close as we can to that mix to compliment the BioCanna nutrient feedings.


----------



## Matt Rize (Feb 1, 2012)

SlightlyVaped said:


> Oh I know it's not vegan, but nothing is so what are you going to do...
> 
> From my understanding the Ocean Forest is hotter than the Happy Frog, have you tried cutting out the Ocean Forest in your mix?
> 
> How much of a nutrient charge is in BTP? I am assuming we are trying to come as close as we can to that mix to compliment the BioCanna nutrient feedings.


I should have mixed some coco in to the Fox Farm, thats what is really missing. The Ocean Forest is hottter than the BTP, which is pretty weak nutritionally. I used about 1 part ocean forest to 3 parts happy frog.


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## Sr. Verde (Feb 1, 2012)

I'm a fox farms soil whore.. you like the bioterra plus better?

FFOF just keeps my plants stable and the soil seems healthy... I thought my only options were FFOF, miracle grow.. or mixing/composting my own (the best, but most difficult and time consuming)..

Ill look into the BTP!


----------



## silverpanic99 (Feb 1, 2012)

Kyle Kushman says that worm castings are vegan but it really depends on your definition of vegan amendments. Stay Lifted!


----------



## blueJ (Feb 1, 2012)

Am i the only one using Coco_NOT_ (i hate that they called it that!) in my mixes?

I know Kushman recommended it on his site/forum as an all vegan alternative to BTP (not sure if he still does) but didn't you use it once Matt and end up not liking it? I think cuz it's PH issues?

I had VERY good success with it but in VEG only, and it was straight out of the bag, no amendments. By the time you get to flowering i think it loses its ability to buffer PH, and with my bloom nutes in the 4.0's it all went to shit (i think that's why).

So back to the point, i have been getting good results with:

1 bag coconot
1 bag Ednas organic potting mix (Armstrong garden center), previously happy frog but i didn't like it (next time it will be vermicrop's bagged soil)
1/2 bag vermiblend compost
maybe 10% perlite (less because the coconot is VERY airy)
EWC
dolomite lime
alfalfa meal
epsom salt

next mix i will also throw in some kelp meal

Now, vermicrop organics also recommends a mix of 1 bag coconot to 1 bag vermiblend compost (2cubic feet to 1cubic feet) i will do a side by side with my full mix and just this sometime soon. I hope this mix kicks ass as it would be VEGAN, there is no bone/blood/feather/guano in the vermiblend compost!! 

Actually i need to verify that with vermicrop, there ingredients lists "compost" so i guess who really knows what the compost is made of?
"Derived from: Compost, Earthworm castings, Humus, Kelp and Mycorrhizal Fungi."


----------



## Matt Rize (Feb 1, 2012)

silverpanic99 said:


> Kyle Kushman says that worm castings are vegan but it really depends on your definition of vegan amendments. Stay Lifted!


That is how I explained it to him. 


blueJ said:


> Am i the only one using Coco_NOT_ (i hate that they called it that!) in my mixes?


Yes, I think you are alone. 



blueJ said:


> I know Kushman recommended it on his site/forum as an all vegan alternative to BTP (not sure if he still does) but didn't you use it once Matt and end up not liking it? I think cuz it's PH issues?


Yeah, not a big fan of the coconot. I'd rather use a coco and peat mix.



blueJ said:


> I had VERY good success with it but in VEG only, and it was straight out of the bag, no amendments. By the time you get to flowering i think it loses its ability to buffer PH, and with my bloom nutes in the 4.0's it all went to shit (i think that's why).


Yes, I think that is why as well. 



blueJ said:


> So back to the point, i have been getting good results with:
> 
> 1 bag coconot
> 1 bag Ednas organic potting mix (Armstrong garden center), previously happy frog but i didn't like it (next time it will be vermicrop's bagged soil)
> ...


Nice mix.


----------



## Dank Raptor (Feb 1, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Am i the only one using Coco_NOT_ (i hate that they called it that!) in my mixes?


I use something similiar. It is a composted redwood, firbark and peat base. With mushroom compost, Volcanic pumice, EWC, Perlite, washed sand, Kelp meal, Yucca and soluble mycorrhizae. Balanced with oystershell and dolomite.

Top shelf all day.


----------



## Da Almighty Jew (Feb 2, 2012)

Dank Raptor said:


> I use something similiar. It is a composted redwood, firbark and peat base. With mushroom compost, Volcanic pumice, EWC, Perlite, washed sand, Kelp meal, Yucca and soluble mycorrhizae. Balanced with oystershell and dolomite.
> 
> Top shelf all day.


I didn't know oyster shell balanced ph, i thought it was just for Calcium.


----------



## Matt Rize (Feb 2, 2012)

dabercise time....
[video=youtube;uR9d85iLRq0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR9d85iLRq0[/video]


----------



## bigcarty24 (Feb 2, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> dabercise time....
> [video=youtube;uR9d85iLRq0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR9d85iLRq0[/video]


I didnt think u were going to make it back up on your feet...lol Must of been one hell of a head rush..


----------



## Matt Rize (Feb 2, 2012)

Check this out. Kushman is starting to teach outside of CA, first up is Arizona. I might be joining him to teach ice wax classes, if this goes well. 
http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Kyle-Kushman-Master-Grower-Seminar---Grow-Like-a-Pro-.html?soid=1104796466228&aid=2qa-3Vc2yiQ&fb_source=message




 






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*The day long seminar will be held on April 1, 2012. 
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Course Discription
*Gro Like a Pro




*


Learn Veganic Cultivation Techniques to Grow the Healthiest Medical Grade Medicine possible.
Earth Friendly Cannaculture? has the Lowest Impact on the Environment of all Cultivation Methods
Learn how to Utilize Beneficial Bacteria, Enzymes, Microbes, and Fungi to create a living Root-Soil Foodweb. Allowing you to grow bigger, healthier, more disease-resistant plants
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*_&#65279;_​​_Morning Session: Beginning / Intermediate Grow
_​_7:30 - 8:30 Registration and Check In
_​_7:30 - 9:00 Continental Breakfast Served_​_
9:00 - 9:15 Introductions_​​_9:15 - 9:45 _Michael Walz, Attorney- MMJ Laws and Q & A  ​_9:45 - 10:15 _Jason Reis, AZ_MMCC Medical Director - Certifications and Q & A_​
_10:30 -12:30 Kyle Kushman, Beginning Grow and Q & A _​​_12:30 -1:30 Break for Lunch_​​​_Afternoon Session: Advanced Grow_​​_ 1:30 - 4:00 Kyle Kushman, Advanced Yields and Supercropping _​​_ 4:00 - 5:00 Meet and Greet with Kyle _​​​_Register for the Beginner/ Intermediate Class Now! _​​_Register for the Advanced Class Now! _​​_Register for the Morning & Afternoon Class Here!_​​_*Early Bird Special if you register before Feburary 28*_​
















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*"Grow Like A Pro" with Kyle Kushman*
* Sunday April 1, 2012*

*Registration begins at - 7:30am*
*Beginners/Intermediate - 9:00am
Advanced Class - 1:30pm*


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----------



## Bird Gymnastics (Feb 2, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> Check this out. Kushman is starting to teach outside of CA, first up is Arizona. I might be joining him to teach ice wax classes, if this goes well.
> http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Kyle-Kushman-Master-Grower-Seminar---Grow-Like-a-Pro-.html?soid=1104796466228&aid=2qa-3Vc2yiQ&fb_source=message
> 
> 
> ...


Was definitely thinking of attending this...with you tagging along it would make it that much better. How much can you actually learn in half a day though? Ha ha


----------



## Da Almighty Jew (Feb 2, 2012)

dabercize...lol Matt, that's funny as fuck!


----------



## really comfy slippers (Feb 2, 2012)

Im going to be getting veganics chart.. recipes for your soil for different needs, getting it through a college professor... pm if you want one


----------



## Matt Rize (Feb 2, 2012)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> Was definitely thinking of attending this...with you tagging along it would make it that much better. How much can you actually learn in half a day though? Ha ha


I am not part of this, I just wanted to let everyone know that Kushman is taking his veganic gospel on the road.


----------



## Bird Gymnastics (Feb 2, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> I am not part of this, I just wanted to let everyone know that Kushman is taking his veganic gospel on the road.


What a shame. YoUd guys do damage as I believe both your techniques are of the future. Much respect regardless but I still might be attending this if you aren't going to be there anyhow. Seems interesting


----------



## Matt Rize (Feb 2, 2012)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> What a shame. YoUd guys do damage as I believe both your techniques are of the future. Much respect regardless but I still might be attending this if you aren't going to be there anyhow. Seems interesting


Yeah for sure, if it goes well for him I might do an ice water extraction class as part of his advanced classes.


----------



## jane's phasm (Feb 5, 2012)

I'm glad to see this kind of quality education becoming more of a reality. With all of the misinformation out there it's very important that recognized subject matter experts be able to share their knowledge and experience with the rest of us. I know there's a lot of good books out there but not everyone is a book learner. I've actually given a lot of thought to the subject of cannabis education, probably because I'm trying to teach myself how to grow, and there's a lot left desired from scouring the internet for the right information. I think an online training program coupled with seminars like this one, or Subcool's School of Dank, would ultimately provide the best value and educational experience. In the training industry we refer to that as "Blended Learning". The concept is to provide a virtual learning environment, usually an online Learning Management System, where students can do research, take self-paced lessons, interact with each other, participate in webinars, attempt knowledge assessments, etc., etc., so that when the time comes for the ILT (Instructor-Led Training) portion everyone is hopefully at the same level of knowledge and no time is wasted trying to get everyone to that point to where the instructor can be most effective. Anyway, just throwing that out there and agreeing with Bird Gymnastics on the question of, "How much are you going to get out of one day?" More often than not, it won't be as much as one hopes.


----------



## Matt Rize (Feb 5, 2012)

jane's phasm said:


> I'm glad to see this kind of quality education becoming more of a reality. With all of the misinformation out there it's very important that recognized subject matter experts be able to share their knowledge and experience with the rest of us. I know there's a lot of good books out there but not everyone is a book learner. I've actually given a lot of thought to the subject of cannabis education, probably because I'm trying to teach myself how to grow, and there's a lot left desired from scouring the internet for the right information. I think an online training program coupled with seminars like this one, or Subcool's School of Dank, would ultimately provide the best value and educational experience. In the training industry we refer to that as "Blended Learning". The concept is to provide a virtual learning environment, usually an online Learning Management System, where students can do research, take self-paced lessons, interact with each other, participate in webinars, attempt knowledge assessments, etc., etc., so that when the time comes for the ILT (Instructor-Led Training) portion everyone is hopefully at the same level of knowledge and no time is wasted trying to get everyone to that point to where the instructor can be most effective. Anyway, just throwing that out there and agreeing with Bird Gymnastics on the question of, "How much are you going to get out of one day?" More often than not, it won't be as much as one hopes.


I met Kyle at Oaksterdam. I was teaching several classes and he had the advanced class. His classes now are very different than when we first met, filled with book knowledge that he learned from me  

I've been thru at least 6 of his lectures and I have to say, he does a good job. I just hope he brings some veganic flowers out there to spread around


----------



## jane's phasm (Feb 5, 2012)

i've picked up quite a bit of that knowledge myself going through this thread, so thank you very much

At Oaksterdam are courses more lecture or "lab" oriented?


----------



## Bird Gymnastics (Feb 5, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> I met Kyle at Oaksterdam. I was teaching several classes and he had the advanced class. His classes now are very different than when we first met, filled with book knowledge that he learned from me
> 
> I've been thru at least 6 of his lectures and I have to say, he does a good job. I just hope he brings some veganic flowers out there to spread around


His veganics are truly great. I hope he brings some as well to show how veganics truly is the healthiest, cleanest tasting bud out there!


----------



## Matt Rize (Feb 5, 2012)

jane's phasm said:


> i've picked up quite a bit of that knowledge myself going through this thread, so thank you very much
> 
> At Oaksterdam are courses more lecture or "lab" oriented?


When I taught I made up my own classes, I didn't like to follow the slides or any of that. I'm not sure what its like now, and I don't teach for Oaksterdam anymore. I teach at the cannabis farmers market every month, classes are free and the topic changes based on the season.


----------



## jane's phasm (Feb 6, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> When I taught I made up my own classes, I didn't like to follow the slides or any of that. I'm not sure what its like now, and I don't teach for Oaksterdam anymore. I teach at the cannabis farmers market every month, classes are free and the topic changes based on the season.


That's fucking great man. The fact you guys have such a thing makes me feel like I live in a police state. No shit, I actually have to watch where I shop for soil because the Sheriff's Dept sets up cameras to record tag #s of every vehicle that pulls in the parking lot.. it's a freakin' garden shop assholes.. complete insanity!

Anyway, keep up the good work Matt!


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## Ponicengineer (Feb 6, 2012)

This is a great thread but the knowledge is a bit tiresome to track down over 170 pages. Is there any news of the book or some sort of compendium per say of veganic cultivation ?


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## trichmasta (Feb 7, 2012)

Teaming with Microbes is a informative, excellent read!! Not exactly about veganics, but all about the soil food web; a must for all serious gardeners!!


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## romulan23 (Feb 7, 2012)

Is there anyway that those Farmers market lectures could be video taped, and added to you you tube page or somewhere that the rest could view them as well. i would be willing to donate funds to make this happen. I'm pretty sure that others would do the same. 
By the way i have made the best hash around my area using the 20gallon machine 5 gallon bags so thanks. My friends thank you too


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## Matt Rize (Feb 7, 2012)

jane's phasm said:


> That's fucking great man. The fact you guys have such a thing makes me feel like I live in a police state. No shit, I actually have to watch where I shop for soil because the Sheriff's Dept sets up cameras to record tag #s of every vehicle that pulls in the parking lot.. it's a freakin' garden shop assholes.. complete insanity!
> 
> Anyway, keep up the good work Matt!


Thanks for the feedback. Sucks about the police state we live in, but the war on cannabis is very real. Thats why I moved to CA, but still, federally, everything we do is illegal.



Ponicengineer said:


> This is a great thread but the knowledge is a bit tiresome to track down over 170 pages. Is there any news of the book or some sort of compendium per say of veganic cultivation ?


unfortunately no. The book is held up. And this thread is quite long. I would change your setting to view more posts per page. For me, this thread is only 47 pages long due to this change. 



trichmasta said:


> Teaming with Microbes is a informative, excellent read!! Not exactly about veganics, but all about the soil food web; a must for all serious gardeners!!


Thanks. Great book. 


romulan23 said:


> Is there anyway that those Farmers market lectures could be video taped, and added to you you tube page or somewhere that the rest could view them as well. i would be willing to donate funds to make this happen. I'm pretty sure that others would do the same.
> By the way i have made the best hash around my area using the 20gallon machine 5 gallon bags so thanks. My friends thank you too


For sure no, my classes take place inside medical cannabis dispensaries for my safety as well as the students. There are no cameras allowed in dispensaries, and the students most likely would not be down. Considering I give all my students free medicine, and we medicate during class, both of which are illegal and/or against the rules, putting it all on camera is probably not the best idea. 

I'll work on getting a lecture up online, but honestly I hate being on camera so it might not happen.


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## ganjames (Feb 7, 2012)

or maybe it's this one.

you're a popular guy matt rize.


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## dickkhead (Feb 7, 2012)

What do u guys dilute your teas at what ratio? And does the formula stay the same throughout veg and flower? I've read feeding just tea the last week to enhance sugar production do you guys cut it out at any point?


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## Matt Rize (Feb 7, 2012)

ganjames said:


> or maybe it's this one.
> 
> you're a popular guy matt rize.


heh... or something like that. work hard, dab harder.

party on wayne!

[video=youtube;sI9--tytdOc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI9--tytdOc[/video]


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## Dank Raptor (Feb 8, 2012)

full melt you can dab. doesnt get much better then that. Nice gauntlet.


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## blueJ (Feb 8, 2012)

1st run was @ 56 days i think, she looks riper i guess here @ 61 days
Bogs Sour Bubble, this girl is the clone from the girl pictured in previous posts and again outperformed other cuts!


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## Ku$hking3883 (Feb 9, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> I want to big up ----->Dr. VD<----- before I go farther. I just found your thread yesterday. Like minds my friend.


link to his thread please?


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## Matt Rize (Feb 9, 2012)

Ku$hking3883 said:


> link to his thread please?


use the search function. its here somewhere.


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## dickkhead (Feb 9, 2012)

What do you guys think of sledge hammer from ff?


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## whitey78 (Feb 9, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> What do you guys think of sledge hammer from ff?



If you are growing organics of any kind you shouldn't need that stuff. If you are using the rest of the fox farms nutes you'll need it though, theres really no reason for anything more than plain water, no flushing or drowning necessary. However if you are using synthetic nutes it works pretty good, I've used it in the past.


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## dickkhead (Feb 9, 2012)

whitey78 said:


> If you are growing organics of any kind you shouldn't need that stuff. If you are using the rest of the fox farms nutes you'll need it though, theres really no reason for anything more than plain water, no flushing or drowning necessary. However if you are using synthetic nutes it works pretty good, I've used it in the past.


Iam using there organic line on some plants and was going to get the ffof and happy frog and do a mix for those plants. I wasn't sure if there was an alternative to the sledge hammer it says the main ingrediant is yucca extract which I have butbim sure there's other stuff in there to. Did you supplement anything with the ff nute line? Thank you for your response !!


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## whitey78 (Feb 10, 2012)

What products are you using? I'm not 100% sure this belongs here but whatever.... 

If you are using the tiger bloom and grow big or whatever it is, not organic, 100% synthetic as well as the cha ching, open sesame, and beastie blooms. The bagged stuff is ok, I'm not really sure about most of it as I have not used anything other than their soil which I still use, and the synthetic line. I used all of the bush master products, microbe brew, kanga-roots and the sledge hammer. I cant say I'd ever buy any of it ever again, but I have used it before and it served its purpose. 

As far as the soil, I use ocean forest and happy frog potting soil bag for bag, 6 cups of EWC's per bag of soil as well as 6 cups of ancient forest alaskan humus per bag of soil (anyone else have any input on my amounts please post). I add @ 1 tbs per gal of soil (this is a new mix, and I just put some plants in it so.....) of cotton seed meal, alfalfa meal, soft rock phosphate, garden lime, then I add 1 tsp of neem cake per gal of soil, 1/4 tsp per gal of soil TM7 from bioag. Aside from that I added about 10% perlite, maybe a little more and I used vam-endo mix also from bioag.com at transplant. All of those meal products are either espoma or Dr. earth, all cheap stuff like $6 for a 3lb box and is what I make my act teas with as well. Which I was alternating with my GO line of nutes but I've started to mix them right before I pour it in. I mix up my GO nutes seperately as normal, except I add enough GO to make up the amount of tea I mix in. This is only with my current batch of plants in 12/12 though, I had no perlite when I mixed that batch of soil so those can go 5-6 days without a watering (too much IMO) so I cant really alternate between nutes and teas all while keeping them happy, with my current batch of vegging plants that I added the 10% of perlite to, I should able to add my teas separately and plan to do so. 

Next time I'll probably add some green sand, thats the only thing I can think of that I know I missed for sure but I have to do a run or 2 or 6 to see what else is missing, I'm sure its missing something. But so far the plants seem to be liking it. 

On top of that I've been using the general organics nutrient line with a bunch of other bullshit bottles that I've been slowly cutting out of the picture by using teas, the only thing I plan to keep using is the protekt @ 1ml per gal and hygrozyme, I'd like to eliminate all the other stuff but thats not gonna be for awhile. At the moment I'm using the bio marine, bloom, and ca/mg for bloom. In veg I'm using the bio weed and root, bio thrive grow, bio marine.

Its still too much, my goal is to cut out the bottled shit the best I can.


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## Wolverine97 (Feb 10, 2012)

whitey78 said:


> What products are you using? I'm not 100% sure this belongs here but whatever....
> 
> If you are using the tiger bloom and grow big or whatever it is, not organic, 100% synthetic as well as the cha ching, open sesame, and beastie blooms. The bagged stuff is ok, I'm not really sure about most of it as I have not used anything other than their soil which I still use, and the synthetic line. I used all of the bush master products, microbe brew, kanga-roots and the sledge hammer. I cant say I'd ever buy any of it ever again, but I have used it before and it served its purpose.
> 
> ...


Thanks, saved me some typing.


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## dickkhead (Feb 10, 2012)

whitey78 said:


> What products are you using? I'm not 100% sure this belongs here but whatever....
> 
> If you are using the tiger bloom and grow big or whatever it is, not organic, 100% synthetic as well as the cha ching, open sesame, and beastie blooms. The bagged stuff is ok, I'm not really sure about most of it as I have not used anything other than their soil which I still use, and the synthetic line. I used all of the bush master products, microbe brew, kanga-roots and the sledge hammer. I cant say I'd ever buy any of it ever again, but I have used it before and it served its purpose.
> 
> ...



Im using the full line of organic ff nutes ill add the sledge hammer to it thanks for your input!


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## whitey78 (Feb 11, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> Im using the full line of organic ff nutes ill add the sledge hammer to it thanks for your input!



Just so I understand, which line or products are you using? As well as if this conversation is going to beyond your reply PM me or lets start a new thread, this is the veganics thread and has been polluted enough. Not sure why were are talking about flushing agents, they really have no place in vegan growing or organic growing at all (not that I'm not willing to answer you, more than happy to discuss it) 

If its the full organic line you do *NOT* need sledge hammer. I just dont want you to waste your time or take anything away from your plants that shouldnt be taken away, flushing agents basically sterilize your soil (not really, but its not going to discriminate weather it be salt build up or nicely working organic soil food web, its going to strip bad as well as good things out of your soil), not exactly what organics is all about.


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## poisonedpeople (Feb 11, 2012)

I largely agree with the above opinions. We've been hijacked in terms of animal products which should be extremely beneficial on all levels in terms of their contribution to our ecosphere. Today, however, there is so much chaos being engineered through our suffocation by toxic chemicals that what should be appropriate (and natural, and sustainable) is becoming not so.

Synthesized chemical compounds are toxic and are bringing about the complete destabilization of an entire blue planet.

See: http://poisonedpeople.com & http://poisoningandlegalaction.com.au.


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## poisonedpeople (Feb 11, 2012)

Flushing agents sound really bad for the soil and your crops. Roundup (the world's most popular herbicide) is something of a flushing agent because it has chelating properties. It destroys the natural soil properties by flushing out minerals and nutrients, as well as imposing toxic metabolite residues that arise out of the glyphosate itself.

I also would like to steer clear of any aggressive approach to treating soil, ESPECIALLY any use of any chemical agents.

See: http://poisonedpeople.com & http://poisoningandlegalaction.com.au.


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## Dank Raptor (Feb 11, 2012)

I understand your concern but most flushing agents like clearex or royal flush are sucrose and glucose which is basically sugar. I no longer use any flushing agents I just dissolve Turbinado sugar into pure water for the last 10-14 days. Works great and I recommend it to anyone. 

Some say that plants can't absorb sugar but is only created by the plant in the Krebs cycle. I agree with that but am also a firm believer that sugar does more then just feed your microherd. Marijuana is a strong plant that can absorb all types of stuff including heavy metals and radiation. Also take into account the plant has evolved over time, often fed molasses and other sugary products by its grower. (like me)


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## dickkhead (Feb 13, 2012)

whitey78 said:


> Just so I understand, which line or products are you using? As well as if this conversation is going to beyond your reply PM me or lets start a new thread, this is the veganics thread and has been polluted enough. Not sure why were are talking about flushing agents, they really have no place in vegan growing or organic growing at all (not that I'm not willing to answer you, more than happy to discuss it)
> 
> If its the full organic line you do *NOT* need sledge hammer. I just dont want you to waste your time or take anything away from your plants that shouldnt be taken away, flushing agents basically sterilize your soil (not really, but its not going to discriminate weather it be salt build up or nicely working organic soil food web, its going to strip bad as well as good things out of your soil), not exactly what organics is all about.


Im using the full line of ff nutes like grow big, tiger bloom, open sesame, big bud, cha ching, beastie bloom etc.. so maybe the sledge is nessacary cause i dont see the omri rating



Dank Raptor said:


> I understand your concern but most flushing agents like clearex or royal flush are sucrose and glucose which is basically sugar. I no longer use any flushing agents I just dissolve Turbinado sugar into pure water for the last 10-14 days. Works great and I recommend it to anyone.
> 
> Some say that plants can't absorb sugar but is only created by the plant in the Krebs cycle. I agree with that but am also a firm believer that sugar does more then just feed your microherd. Marijuana is a strong plant that can absorb all types of stuff including heavy metals and radiation. Also take into account the plant has evolved over time, often fed molasses and other sugary products by its grower. (like me)


thanks for the tip maybe ill just do this instead


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## dickkhead (Feb 13, 2012)

sorry for thread jacking but wanted to ask people who know what their doing


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## Matt Rize (Feb 13, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> sorry for thread jacking but wanted to ask people who know what their doing


no worries. this is the place to find the right answers.


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## GreenChile (Feb 14, 2012)

What about dropping the PH, I heard through the grapevine that flushing with sugar and raw fresh lemon juice dilluted in water worked well for flushing. Ive never done it personally but it seemed to make since in theory. The sugar helps flush the soil while the low ph from the lemon juice create a nutrient lockout?


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## Buddy Hemphill (Feb 14, 2012)

GreenChile said:


> What about dropping the PH, I heard through the grapevine that flushing with sugar and raw fresh lemon juice dilluted in water worked well for flushing. Ive never done it personally but it seemed to make since in theory. The sugar helps flush the soil while the low ph from the lemon juice create a nutrient lockout?


How the hell ddoes sugar flush soil?

Wht would you want to flush soil at harvest? The point is flushing your plants.....

which brings up....how the hell can you flush your plants if they wont uptake anything due to lock out?


Thats crazy and incorrect.


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## Matt Rize (Feb 14, 2012)

GreenChile said:


> What about dropping the PH, I heard through the grapevine that flushing with sugar and raw fresh lemon juice dilluted in water worked well for flushing. Ive never done it personally but it seemed to make since in theory. The sugar helps flush the soil while the low ph from the lemon juice create a nutrient lockout?


If you are not loading your plants with chemical fertilizers, then flushing isnt really something to think about. And on top of that, anyone who thinks you can remove bad stuff from plants, by feeding them sugar, needs to go to school. Flushing is a joke. Just give your plants plain pH adjusted water at the end. Sometimes I give them a little sugar, just because I use RO water and it has nothing at all in it. 


Buddy Hemphill said:


> How the hell ddoes sugar flush soil?
> Wht would you want to flush soil at harvest? The point is flushing your plants.....
> which brings up....how the hell can you flush your plants if they wont uptake anything due to lock out?
> Thats crazy and incorrect.


Yeah, low pH flush, I have not heard of that. I say keep it simple. Water at the end, maybe a little agave syrup or evaporated sugar.


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## Buddy Hemphill (Feb 14, 2012)

word.

I continue feeding the herd until the end...molasses is what I have now.

I want to try organic corn syrup next.


Is agave better than organic corn...syrup, that is?


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## Matt Rize (Feb 14, 2012)

Buddy Hemphill said:


> word.
> 
> I continue feeding the herd until the end...molasses is what I have now.
> 
> ...


another advanced veganic question that I simply do not know the answer to.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 14, 2012)

I would say, go with what is available locally, the difference in results is negligible compared to the difference in the way all these products are manufactured.

For example where I live, the locally available sources of "sugar" are maple syrup, maple sugar and honey.

I personally use local, organic, raw honey, because its alive with enzymes and trace minerals, and I get it from the farmer who makes it.

Good for people, good for plants, good for the planet.

Peace.


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## silverpanic99 (Feb 14, 2012)

this may have been mentioned before and if it has I apologize....but what is a good way to adjust pH down in a vegan/organic manner?


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## Rising Moon (Feb 14, 2012)

There are a couple of great Veganic information resources out there, mostly applied to vegetable production, but Cannabis is a vegetable, it was just taken away from farmers many years ago...

One of them is a book called: Growing Green (Animal-Free Organic Techniques) by Jenny Hall and Iain Tolhurst

I own this book, and have read it front to back many times, and flip through it regularly, it has tons of info and acts as a guidebook for Veganic farms in Europe and beyond...

Another good resource is the Vegan Organic Network (veganorganic.net) they have pdf files you can download with info about making fertilizers, composting etc...

Anyways, happy growing, thanks for sharing valuable info!

Silverpanic99: PH down= Raw Apple Cider Viniger


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## silverpanic99 (Feb 14, 2012)

raw? is this a common product as in the bottle I have in the cabinet or do I need to get something a bit more specific...


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## dickkhead (Feb 14, 2012)

Rising Moon said:


> There are a couple of great Veganic information resources out there, mostly applied to vegetable production, but Cannabis is a vegetable, it was just taken away from farmers many years ago...
> 
> One of them is a book called: Growing Green (Animal-Free Organic Techniques) by Jenny Hall and Iain Tolhurst
> 
> ...


from what ive been told cannibus is a fruit not a vegetable! just sayin


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## dickkhead (Feb 14, 2012)

matt how much agave syrup or cane sugar do you use per gallon at the end? and when do you cut out tea?


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## upthearsenal (Feb 14, 2012)

silverpanic99 said:


> raw? is this a common product as in the bottle I have in the cabinet or do I need to get something a bit more specific...


Just make sure on the bottle you have it says 'all natural' and that there is nothing fishy in the ingredients.


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## GreenChile (Feb 14, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> If you are not loading your plants with chemical fertilizers, then flushing isnt really something to think about. And on top of that, anyone who thinks you can remove bad stuff from plants, by feeding them sugar, needs to go to school. Flushing is a joke. Just give your plants plain pH adjusted water at the end. Sometimes I give them a little sugar, just because I use RO water and it has nothing at all in it.


Well I wasnt implying that I could remove "bad stuff" using sugar, I actually do go to school (grad school) and I was under the assumption that the sugar was a supplemental carbohydrate source for the plant since nutrient levels are low during flushing. I also believed the sugar helped feed soil microbes, but then again im not a biology student...  
I grow using a personally revised Subcool Super Soil recipe while I supplement with lots of enzymes and beneficial microbes. 
Obviously youre not going to believe me but when I used alot of animal based nitrogen products like blood meal and bat poo, I have absolutely noticed a more undesirable bitter taste to the finished product. So I would flush with tap water, then RO water a day or two before harvest hoping that it would help "flush" out some of the poop that seems to be adding the bitter taste. As of recently though, I have switched to using just worm castings and nitrogen fixing bacteria for a nitrogen source. Ive also added a secret plant based compost I make which has replaced the bitter taste with a subtle sweet/cleaner taste. 
I still "flush" before harvest but only because I havent yet grown a control group of flushed vs. Unflushed to see if there is a difference, like there was when I used guano and blood meal.

The lowering of PH using lemon extract in theory slowly lowers the PH over a period of time tell lockout occurs which stops nutrients from being taken into the plant as a theorized method for removing nutrients from the plant before harvest without having to resort to dumping tons of water over the roots, which drowns them of oxygen causing nutrients to, in theory, trap undesired nutrients in the plant, which can contradict the sole purpose of flushing. I dont know if it works or not but will experiment as soon as I can get a control group growing.

But I do think theres alot of unnecessary rumors floating around when it comes to growing in soil. Aslong as the macronutrients are there, the plant will feed at will and youll get pretty stellar plants. Too many people obsess and add a bunch of crap that actually contributes to an unhealthy plant, when all they gotta do is monitor PH and make sure the soil remains slightly moist while keeping the surrounding environment stable. ​


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## SlightlyVaped (Feb 14, 2012)

Matt - made a bonehead mistake today. Was cleaning up and somehow hit my timer switch from timer to ON while the girls should of been in a dark period. I didn't notice until after an hour later when I felt hot air coming out of the ducts and quickly turned the lights off, now what to do...

So do I give them 12 straight hours of darkness/4 hours on then 12 off to get back to schedule or leave them off over 24 hours until the next light schedule?

They are in their last week of flower (5 or 6 more days), so should I just chop and make hash haha.


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## GreenChile (Feb 14, 2012)

Im not Matt, but 1 hour of light 6 days before harvest isnt bad. Just pretend like it didnt happen. Your plant is so close to being mature that its not going to make a difference. 
....right, Matt?


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## blueJ (Feb 15, 2012)

Yeah don't even trip slightlyVaped, just keep the lights back to it's regular schedule and no harm done. Once i didn't know the timer had broken (years ago and a cheap walmart $5 time) so when it "clicked" off it didn't actually cut the electricity (24 hour light). I never visited the grow unless the lights were on, so a few weeks went by and oh fuck no further flowering, like they were stunted, then these strange little mutated leafy stems started shooting out of the buds and i was screwed, 20 plants under 2200w, fucked over from that! So yeah, a day of screwy lights, no worries  

And about the flushing, in pure organics, flushing shouldn't even be a part of the vocabulary. By design you are feeding less or not at all in the last two weeks of flower anyways since the plant has pretty much done it's thing, so it's a type of flush without really actively flushing, ya know? I finish in 5 or 7 or sometimes 10 gallon buckets, no drainage, an inch or two of perlite on the bottom to buffer any overwaterings, when it's cut the perlite is just teaming solid with roots and oddly enough i notice having to water more often then when i use bags or pots with drainage.


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## silverpanic99 (Feb 15, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Yeah don't even trip slightlyVaped, just keep the lights back to it's regular schedule and no harm done. Once i didn't know the timer had broken (years ago and a cheap walmart $5 time) so when it "clicked" off it didn't actually cut the electricity (24 hour light). I never visited the grow unless the lights were on, so a few weeks went by and oh fuck no further flowering, like they were stunted, then these strange little mutated leafy stems started shooting out of the buds and i was screwed, 20 plants under 2200w, fucked over from that! So yeah, a day of screwy lights, no worries
> 
> And about the flushing, in pure organics, flushing shouldn't even be a part of the vocabulary. By design you are feeding less or not at all in the last two weeks of flower anyways since the plant has pretty much done it's thing, so it's a type of flush without really actively flushing, ya know? I finish in 5 or 7 or sometimes 10 gallon buckets, no drainage, an inch or two of perlite on the bottom to buffer any overwaterings, when it's cut the perlite is just teaming solid with roots and oddly enough i notice having to water more often then when i use bags or pots with drainage.


interesting information there.


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## SketchyGrower (Feb 16, 2012)

Hey Matt, just got my line of biocanna back running. Using it on a batch of three plants till I get the swing of things again.. I'm using

Floras 
Vega
Boost
Hygrozyme

Also have the cannazyme and rhizotonic* just not in use as of right now. If it's not to much trouble would you be able to tell me if I should pick up anything more? Such as cal/mag.. Trying to go organic... If this is a fail I may just try my hands at super soil..

Last time I ran the biocanna I only used boost and Flores and had tremendous problems with diff problems.. Best tasting smoke to date for me still tho...


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## Matt Rize (Feb 16, 2012)

SketchyGrower said:


> Hey Matt, just got my line of biocanna back running. Using it on a batch of three plants till I get the swing of things again.. I'm using
> 
> Floras
> Vega
> ...


Consider adding a CalMag supplement. I use the one from General Organics.


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## NightbirdX (Feb 16, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> Consider adding a CalMag supplement. I use the one from General Organics.


I'd add a micronutirent supplement in there as well. I use EJ's,microblast once every 2 weeks


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## Matt Rize (Feb 16, 2012)

okay okay. I swear, I'm still growing. Just been busy hashing it up. 

The Flav from seed. This round didn't get any love but its aight.


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## Matt Rize (Feb 16, 2012)

more The Flav


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## SketchyGrower (Feb 16, 2012)

I just got that and dairy queen.. Can't wait to pop one or the other...err both lol


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## silverpanic99 (Feb 16, 2012)

I just got chernobyl!


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## jane's phasm (Feb 16, 2012)

I should have gotten more TGA last time


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## SketchyGrower (Feb 16, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


>


Is that a bud growing off that leaf!?..(bottom center)..


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## blueJ (Feb 16, 2012)

Good shit Matt! 

Ya know, it must be in the soil mix, i still can't get over this early yellowing in flower and signs of phos deficiency. My flowers, as you can see in the pictures i've put up, look bitchen and taste good, potent etc etc etc, but i feel if it stayed greener etc just a couple more weeks i could pull more weight, and there's no reason for the curling crispy leaves (phos def.) to ever occur!

What are you all using currently to supplement, for example, the low phos in bioflores? I've been using humboldts 0-10-0, but i don't think i like it, i hate the high phos @ 10! But the ingredients are simple and look like good stuff, kelp & soft rock phosphate..........

Also, i want to keep saying its a PH thing with low 5's upper 4's PH with bloom mixture, but shit it's all organic and soil full of microbes/fungi, it shouldn't matter so why/how could it even be a PH thing?


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## Matt Rize (Feb 16, 2012)

SketchyGrower said:


> Is that a bud growing off that leaf!?..(bottom center)..


Yeah, I didn't see that until I posted the picture here. Pretty cool huh? That happens in my gardens somewhat frequently.


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## SketchyGrower (Feb 16, 2012)

That's pretty dope!


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## Matt Rize (Feb 16, 2012)

SketchyGrower said:


> That's pretty dope!


Yeah, for a no attention round, they look aight. Im going to hash the whole then anyways!!!


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## SketchyGrower (Feb 16, 2012)

Speaking of hash I just was reading the January issue of skunk... Theres a section on steam distillation hashish alchemy.. I have been looking for a "glass on glass steam distiller" so I can try and make the organic honey oil... Have you tried this out? If so, can I ask where a good place to buy a apparatus at... Really want to try my hand a making dab-able hash like your vids show off  looks fucking tasty


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## Matt Rize (Feb 17, 2012)

SketchyGrower said:


> Speaking of hash I just was reading the January issue of skunk... Theres a section on steam distillation hashish alchemy.. I have been looking for a "glass on glass steam distiller" so I can try and make the organic honey oil... Have you tried this out? If so, can I ask where a good place to buy a apparatus at... Really want to try my hand a making dab-able hash like your vids show off  looks fucking tasty


Steam distilling is more for essential oil extraction, not cannabinoids.


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## SketchyGrower (Feb 17, 2012)

so, your method on youtube is how to get your water hash able to be dab'able..? thanks for the info btw!!

this is it right 
Skip to the end for him calling for his mom...LOL!!
[video=youtube_share;cvYIFNX_n7U]http://youtu.be/cvYIFNX_n7U[/video]


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## Matt Rize (Feb 17, 2012)

heh, my moms was pissed about that one


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## blacktourmaline (Feb 17, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Good shit Matt!
> 
> Ya know, it must be in the soil mix, i still can't get over this early yellowing in flower and signs of phos deficiency. My flowers, as you can see in the pictures i've put up, look bitchen and taste good, potent etc etc etc, but i feel if it stayed greener etc just a couple more weeks i could pull more weight, and there's no reason for the curling crispy leaves (phos def.) to ever occur!
> 
> ...


I agree, whats everyone using for phosphorous boost?, or i've been using just bio flores and had to cut the humboldt bloom down because of the ten percent calcium which was causing problems, (water is already too hard) and now i need to find a substitute, but the flores seems to be doing great with the boost, but sure would be nice to have a higher phosphorous thats vegan, any ideas anyone? Thought that this was a very valid question for veganics, Thanks blue J


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## woodsmaneh! (Feb 17, 2012)

AS I was watching this I was saying to myself how fucking stupid people can be, did you see he had a smoke in his hand also..


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## Matt Rize (Feb 17, 2012)

blacktourmaline said:


> I agree, whats everyone using for phosphorous boost?, or i've been using just bio flores and had to cut the humboldt bloom down because of the ten percent calcium which was causing problems, (water is already too hard) and now i need to find a substitute, but the flores seems to be doing great with the boost, but sure would be nice to have a higher phosphorous thats vegan, any ideas anyone? Thought that this was a very valid question for veganics, Thanks blue J


I'm not using any Phosphorus supplement. Just feeding hard with the Flores. Using lots of CalMag, micronutes, silica, and fulvic.


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## blueJ (Feb 17, 2012)

I'd like to try a banana peel tea for bloom! Do you have any high P amendments in your soil Matt?

Ya know, i was thinking last night. Veg tent everything is lush, green, grows quick (considering average temp right now is 68F in there), eats up everything i give it like a real champ! Same soil mix is used regardless of my transplant time. 

So i look at what is different in the bloom tent, first to mind is the change in nutrient solution/teas, okay then i think over feeding or underfeeding, maybe, then i think PH, maybe. I've upped the PH, i've used more nutes, i've used less nutes, etc etc. no matter what i do results seem to be the same = early yellowing, crispy curlying leaves (a la phos def.) and occasional "spotting" (think K def. or cal def.), and smaller leaves and curly slow growing tips (new growth). So that just leaves me confused, no matter what i've changed and monitored each change at seperate times, i'm getting the same result.

So, took a step back and thought, shit what else could it be? It HAS to be something different in the bloom tent...then a light bulb went on, literally! Maybe my HPS lights are shitty? They sure do love it under the halides, then no matter what i do in bloom they, basically, die off to soon.

Veg = eye hortilux 400w MH (X2)
flower = GE lucalox 600w HPS (X2)

I"m thinking my girls don't like this bulb!! Sorry i know, not technically a veganic issue, but hey it's a veganic grow and it's an issue! 

I'm going to buy a good full spectrum MH and see how they react after a few days, leaving one HPS in there. What bulb ya think? Also, am i crazy for thinking it's the lights? I thought i upgraded my bulbs, but maybe these lucalux are shitty bulbs?


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## PakaloloHui (Feb 17, 2012)

blueJ said:


> I'd like to try a banana peel tea for bloom! Do you have any high P amendments in your soil Matt?
> 
> Ya know, i was thinking last night. Veg tent everything is lush, green, grows quick (considering average temp right now is 68F in there), eats up everything i give it like a real champ! Same soil mix is used regardless of my transplant time.
> 
> ...


Thought I would chime in here.

Don't fortget that High P levels are toxic to your microherd in the soil!!!

Build the herd and they will provide the P for the plants through normal feedings.


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## silverpanic99 (Feb 17, 2012)

PakaloloHui said:


> Thought I would chime in here.
> 
> Don't fortget that High P levels are toxic to your microherd in the soil!!!
> 
> Build the herd and they will provide the P for the plants through normal feedings.


is that the same for N?


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## blacktourmaline (Feb 17, 2012)

blueJ said:


> I'd like to try a banana peel tea for bloom! Do you have any high P amendments in your soil Matt?
> 
> Ya know, i was thinking last night. Veg tent everything is lush, green, grows quick (considering average temp right now is 68F in there), eats up everything i give it like a real champ! Same soil mix is used regardless of my transplant time.
> 
> ...



I've had similar happen before with the veganics, but I believe Magnesium, Fulvic Acid and Hygrozyme has solved my issues...what are you using for mg? Makes sense, because they help with nutrient/chlorophyll uptake.


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## PakaloloHui (Feb 17, 2012)

silverpanic99 said:


> is that the same for N?



No. They love Nitrogen and will make it available to the plants.

*For early yellowing issues:


*I'm not 100% veganic, but this is what I do when a strain that I don't have dialed in yet yellows early. I will either top-off my pots with some more Subcool Supersoil which I use now in the bottom of my pots. Or I will make a bloom based organic tea and add a bit of alfalfa meal for the nitrogen to help me get through untill the end.

On my next grow I would either add a bit more supersoil, or I would keep adding a bit of Nitrogen a little longer during the transition phase from veg to bloom to help make it further.

and get or read the book taht everyone talks about on this journal "Teaming with Microbes" excellent must have!!!


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## dickkhead (Feb 17, 2012)

blacktourmaline said:


> I've had similar happen before with the veganics, but I believe Magnesium, Fulvic Acid and Hygrozyme has solved my issues...what are you using for mg? Makes sense, because they help with nutrient/chlorophyll uptake.


Im also having yellowong issues and Im on day 1 of bloom with heavy duty fruity in bioterra plus, i had the same issue with a peat perlite blend with this strain. I have a pinnapple express in farfand soil that is said to feed for 6 months, and not 1 yellow leaf on this plant there all still green and show no signs of defficiancys im also running biocanna and nn in that pot i dont know if its the strain or medium? but i also fed a tea late in flower with kelp meal and she loved it


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## dickkhead (Feb 17, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> I'm not using any Phosphorus supplement. Just feeding hard with the Flores. Using lots of CalMag, micronutes, silica, and fulvic.


how much fulvic in bloom and do you use thrive alive?


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## dickkhead (Feb 17, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> I'd add a micronutirent supplement in there as well. I use EJ's,microblast once every 2 weeks


every 2 weeks including in flowering? when do you cut it out?


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## silverpanic99 (Feb 18, 2012)

I have to order teaming with microbes it is a necessity at this point. Might try the library first though.


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## woodsmaneh! (Feb 18, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> Im also having yellowong issues and Im on day 1 of bloom with heavy duty fruity in bioterra plus, i had the same issue with a peat perlite blend with this strain. I have a pinnapple express in farfand soil that is said to feed for 6 months, and not 1 yellow leaf on this plant there all still green and show no signs of defficiancys im also running biocanna and nn in that pot i dont know if its the strain or medium? but i also fed a tea late in flower with kelp meal and she loved it



Read a few posts like this and wanted to make a comment: are you sure it's N your missing?

Nitrogen and Iron deficiency have very similar symptoms! The main cause of an N dif is high pH. (keep it no higher than 6.8 imho)

If your yellowing is in younger leaves than it is Iron, older leaves it's N, but check pH before adding more.


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## woodsmaneh! (Feb 18, 2012)

silverpanic99 said:


> I have to order teaming with microbes it is a necessity at this point. Might try the library first though.


It's a great place to start and learn. I found a few chapters kind of dry but full of great info. Get the revised edition. Elaine Ingrham has a new book out, well came out last year on tea's, this is quite a ground breaking book from what I have read.

http://www.amazon.com/Compost-Tea-Brewing-Manual/dp/B0006S6JVK

Nice day to be outside Matt, stop making hash, smoke a big one and go outside take some pixs. Peace


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## Matt Rize (Feb 18, 2012)

woodsmaneh! said:


> It's a great place to start and learn. I found a few chapters kind of dry but full of great info. Get the revised edition. Elaine Ingrham has a new book out, well came out last year on tea's, this is quite a ground breaking book from what I have read.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Compost-Tea-Brewing-Manual/dp/B0006S6JVK
> 
> Nice day to be outside Matt, stop making hash, smoke a big one and go outside take some pixs. Peace


I'm teaching at the cannabis farmers market today. 11 to 1, topic is getting ready for the spring. I'll be making some fresh cannabis juice, using my The Flav flowers, and showing the students how to cut clones.


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## arik maso (Feb 18, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> I'm teaching at the cannabis farmers market today. 11 to 1, topic is getting ready for the spring. I'll be making some fresh cannabis juice, using my The Flav flowers, and showing the students how to cut clones.


if you don't mind me asking, is the cannabis farmers market anywhere close to San Jose? i was also wondering, who is able to attend?


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## Matt Rize (Feb 18, 2012)

arik maso said:


> if you don't mind me asking, is the cannabis farmers market anywhere close to San Jose? i was also wondering, who is able to attend?


the market is inside organicann, a large dispensary in santa rosa. only 215 patients can come, and classes are always free. every student goes home with samples.


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## arik maso (Feb 18, 2012)

great thanks!


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## Sr. Verde (Feb 18, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> I'm not using any Phosphorus supplement. Just feeding hard with the Flores. Using lots of CalMag, micronutes, silica, and fulvic.


So your down with the sillica?

I usually like to keep my plants as natural as I can just so I know I'm medicating with naturally grown... 

I know silica is naturally occurring in the plant but you don't feel like adding sillica from the bottle is un natural? This is the same reason I don't use 'sugar' products that are supposed to increase resin for this reason.. Only molasses which I seldom use.

What product do you use? Great to hear silica in a veganic discussion, i usually always heard about it reading hydro grows..


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## PakaloloHui (Feb 18, 2012)

If you guys are into mining your own silica, look up Rainbow Rock on the Southern Oregon Coast, it is made of SILICA. I read this in a roadside geology book that gives information of the general geology make-up of the surrounding earth and soils.

Book name:
ROADSIDE GEOLOGY OF OREGON

Authors:
David D. Alt
Donald W. Hyndman

Book Quote 
page 36.

"Rainbow Rock, just south of Boardman State Park, is composed mostly of intricately folded thin beds of colorful chert, a very hard sedimentary rock composed almost entirely of silica. There are quite a few such bedded cherts in this part of the Coast Range but Rainbow Rock is one of the few places where it is easy to get a good look at them."


Location:
Est. 20 min. North of the Cali Border.


Shhh, don't tell the Nutrient companies about my source of silica!!!!


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## silverpanic99 (Feb 18, 2012)

PakaloloHui said:


> If you guys are into mining your own silica, look up Rainbow Rock on the Southern Oregon Coast, it is made of SILICA. I read this in a roadside geology book that gives information of the general geology make-up of the surrounding earth and soils.
> 
> Book name:
> ROADSIDE GEOLOGY OF OREGON
> ...


I love geology! Went to school for environmental geology. the downside with mining your own silica is that it would take a while to break down to become available to the plants. Outdoor garden this method would work. Indoor would possibly work if you "activate your soil." I think greensand has silica in it too. But it too will take a while to break down.

I often question the silica from a bottle and organic/veganics. If it is chemically derived then I have some issues. I need to do some research on that.


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## PakaloloHui (Feb 18, 2012)

I do lots of composting and take my time doing so. I get kelp from the beach, oyster shells by the bucket fulls (with already crushed shells as well) from near by oyster farms, the silica and many other ingredients from the forest, food scraps and many other plant materials and add it to multiple small piles of compost. I'm in no hurry to use this, but just keep ammending it with anything and everything possible. I'll give my piles several years before using.
I hope it all works out, I really don't see why not, read some good books and keep getting great info on the web from sites like RIU, and from people like Matt and their helpful posts and info.
My soils are very Bio-active.


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## Matt Rize (Feb 19, 2012)

Originally Posted by* yg*
_Pyrophyllite clay is mostly silica and approximately 50% of that is amorphic and that's the form you want from a natural source like this. Get the granular as it's slow release and a lot less expensive than the powder. This clay contains other goodies such as Rare Earth Elements. 50 lbs for $25. Buy from the source!

http://www.vitalityherbsandclay.com/...-products.html_


Quote:

Originally Posted by *bf*
_http://www.genhydro.com/genhydro_US/msds/RareEarth.pdf


Ingredients: Rare Earth TM is a mixture of *50%* pyrophylitic silicate clay and *18%* humic acids
derived from leonardite.

RARE EARTH&#8482;
Dry Premium Blend Organic Minerals & Humates 

Rare Earth is derived from ancient seabed deposits of pyrophylitic clay that are blended with fulvate ore. By slowly releasing silicon, humates, and organic rare earth minerals, Rare Earth allows a crystal matrix to develop within growing plant tissue that protects the plant from heat stress and nutrient extremes by generating a protective silicon shield. This also deters fungal disease and reduces susceptibility to insect damage by "hardening" the plant. Use Rare Earth by blending it with rooting media, and either top-dressing around the plant stem or adding it directly to nutrient solutions.

*General Hydroponics Rare Earth 4lb*
Price:$19.99 
http://www.amazon.com/General-Hydrop...1225833&sr=1-1_


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## blueJ (Feb 19, 2012)

PakaloloHui said:


> Don't fortget that High P levels are toxic to your microherd in the soil!!!
> 
> Build the herd and they will provide the P for the plants through normal feedings.


Thanks for reminding me Pakalolo! I picked up Teaming with Microbes and caught my attention when reading about this the other day:

"Phosphourus-solubilizing bacteria and fungi...produce organic acids capable of converting insoluble phosphorus into a form that can be taken up by plants. There seems to be a relationship between endomycorrhizal fungi and phosphorus-solubilizing bacteria. The phosphorus freed up by soil bacteria must be quickly absorbed lest it convert back to an insoluble form. If endomycorrhizal fungi are nearby, some of this free phosphorus is absorbed and delivered to host plants. The bacteria may travel with the hyphae in search of phosphates. It is even possible that the endomycorrhizal fungi stimulate the plant to make more exudates to attract more solubilizing bacteria."

It continues to describe a case study where a crop was inoculated with this specific "phosphorus-solubilizing" bacteria which _increased_ yields while using* less* fertilizer, and also stating that "products on the fringes of the home horticultural market make use of them..." Which to me means the indoor cannabis growing market  

So, if we're inoculating with one or more product that contains these phosphorus-solubilizing bacteria (it doesn't give their species name, and with some of the products we use have dozens of different species names, i'm playing the assumption most of us are getting these one way or another, even if it's naturally occuring in homemade compost teas), thus making more phosphorus available to the plant and when one continues to "boost" levels of P out of a bottled nute, we're essentially dosing with toxic levels of P causing nute lockout, and/or killing off the microherd, as mentioned, leading to further problems on top of P lockout.

I'm reading this book slow, trying to absorb and retain a lot of valuble info, not to mention it's a real game changer for many that are discovering the soil food web for the first time! 

"Feed the soil not the plant!"



blacktourmaline said:


> I've had similar happen before with the veganics, but I believe Magnesium, Fulvic Acid and Hygrozyme has solved my issues...what are you using for mg? Makes sense, because they help with nutrient/chlorophyll uptake.


I use hygrozyme, fulvic acid via BIOAG's fullpower (lovin' it!) and magnesium i think mainly from GO's calmag (use all RO water) oh and epsom salt in the soil mix.

Makes sense to me too, i haven't beening using the fullpower for too long, and my soil mixes are changing and, i feel, improving with each new batch, so i'll take note and comment as my early yellowing issues improve (or not!), try to possibly pinpoint something specific to document and help other's with same issue.



woodsmaneh! said:


> Read a few posts like this and wanted to make a comment: are you sure it's N your missing?
> 
> Nitrogen and Iron deficiency have very similar symptoms! The main cause of an N dif is high pH. (keep it no higher than 6.8 imho)
> 
> If your yellowing is in younger leaves than it is Iron, older leaves it's N, but check pH before adding more.


For me, I have low PH mixes in bloom and yellowing is bottom to top, last crop i top-dressed with alfalfa meal and went back to biovega (like 50/50 with flores) for a couple feedings. I noticed the perimeter of the leaf greened up for a little, the center remained yellow, it was probably to far into flower so the plant didn't really give a shit anymore about the leaves, but i felt it did help "pause" the situation allowing the plant to pull a bit more from the leaves...


Silica!! I started using that too in very small amounts, i think by dynagro, it says "beyond organic" on the bottle, whatever that's supposed to mean lol.

Matt you're always coming up with these links to bitchin' lookin products, i have to thank you for the BIOAG products, props brotha! And now I want to check out these vitality herbs and clay products!


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## blueJ (Feb 19, 2012)

Also, I wanted to point out.I used to run a pretty simple, industry standard, type of regimine.FFOF soil or even home depot supersoil (whatever soil) ammended with bone/blood meal and dolomite lime, cut with perlite.Fed the ladies with PureBlend Pro GROW and in bloom switched to PureBlend Pro BLOOM, an early boost of FF big bloom, then finished off with EJ Bloom. Also fed 1TBS molasses/gal pretty much beginning to end, every watering (used tap water, let it sit out)With the above I always had perfect to near perfect results for years and years.

I grabbed one of my leftover bottles and looked at the ingredients, they put it all in there man! Silica, calmag, micronutes etc etc etc. So without knowing it I was giving the plants a full spectrum of what it needed. 

Seems like with my new plant-based grows I am hand selecting everything the plant needs from many different sources which leaves it open for one to be either severely underfeeding a certain element or overfeeding. Also, i noticed on the bottle of CannaBIO it has a line that says it is designed to be used with "compost and mineral based soils," obviously telling us that it is lacking in certain things (micronutes at least) that we should be getting out of our soil mix, or other source. And a big "duh" moment here... which is why when used in combo with bioterra plus people are getting amazing results, they go hand in hand and CANNA knows this! Bring back bioterra plus!


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## Matt Rize (Feb 19, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Silica!! I started using that too in very small amounts, i think by dynagro, it says "beyond organic" on the bottle, whatever that's supposed to mean lol.
> 
> Matt you're always coming up with these links to bitchin' lookin products, i have to thank you for the BIOAG products, props brotha! And now I want to check out these vitality herbs and clay products!


Obviously the General Organic's cost the same for 4lbs as it does for 50lbs from the real gardening supply company. 

Sr V - Im not sure where liquid silica falls in the organic game, but I love using it. I add small amounts of supplementary Si throughout the grow, and I use it to emulsify neem oil.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 19, 2012)

In Bio-Dynamic farming they use a preparation (number 501), that is made from powdered quartz crystals(silica).

The idea is that the powdered and screened quartz crystals are mixed with water, and sprayed on plants early in the morning, the microscopic crystals land on the leaf surface and break up the suns rays into its individual UV spectrums, (think crystals making rainbows) The plants are supposed to be able to photosynthesize more efficiently, therefore growing stronger faster and better.

The wild and brilliant ideas of Rudolf Steiner...
[h=1][/h]


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## silverpanic99 (Feb 19, 2012)

Rising Moon said:


> In Bio-Dynamic farming they use a preparation (number 501), that is made from powdered quartz crystals(silica).
> 
> The idea is that the powdered and screened quartz crystals are mixed with water, and sprayed on plants early in the morning, the microscopic crystals land on the leaf surface and break up the suns rays into its individual UV spectrums, (think crystals making rainbows) The plants are supposed to be able to photosynthesize more efficiently, therefore growing stronger faster and better.
> 
> The wild and brilliant ideas of Rudolf Steiner...


Sounds interesting but I don't think you would want to smoke that herb. Inhaling rock dust is not preferable, same situation with perlite and inhaling dust from it...


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## dickkhead (Feb 19, 2012)

woodsmaneh! said:


> Read a few posts like this and wanted to make a comment: are you sure it's N your missing?
> 
> Nitrogen and Iron deficiency have very similar symptoms! The main cause of an N dif is high pH. (keep it no higher than 6.8 imho)
> 
> If your yellowing is in younger leaves than it is Iron, older leaves it's N, but check pH before adding more.


well my ph is 7 on the bioterra plus and its on the lower leaves of the plant so im guessing its a iron deff cause its not on the older leaves yet?


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## Matt Rize (Feb 19, 2012)

been working...
[video=youtube;7jFbol5CGOQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jFbol5CGOQ[/video]


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## blueJ (Mar 16, 2012)

sucks that we lost 20 pages


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## Matt Rize (Mar 16, 2012)

blueJ said:


> sucks that we lost 20 pages


ugh.... thats a month of posts lost. Well, I encourage you all to help me get this thread back on track. 
Buddy, we for sure lost your posts. 
Thanks to everyone for posting here and helping establish vegan organic horticulture with me.


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## Buddy Hemphill (Mar 16, 2012)

Just becuse I did it from sheer laziness and I am trying to back into how it might be working.

I know I really need a scope. One day..

Short version..in beermaking the last part of the vat is left with beer in it. If starts the fermentation process of the next batch of beer.

They do that a few times and then run off the bottom also, the Bock, and sell it as such.

Then they start with a fresh batch after a good cleaning.

Has any body ever kept a batch of ACT going and added sugars, kelp, and more compost and let 'er keep churning for a few days?

LOL...till it starts stinkin?

I know the smells from healhty tea...and I could be mistaken, but it smells good for a couple of days like that...pulling off a gallon or two per day.


Disclaimer: I know this is probly just dead tea....but maybe somebody with a scope has played with this idea?

Just wanted to bounce it out there. See what you guys thought....

I like to have tea around 24/7 and its a bitch to clean everything and start over every day or two.

Bwahhh wahhh wahhh....I know..

Always looking for a shortcut...stoner me...lol


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## Da Almighty Jew (Mar 16, 2012)

Buddy Hemphill said:


> Just becuse I did it from sheer laziness and I am trying to back into how it might be working.
> 
> I know I really need a scope. One day..
> 
> ...


according to a recent article i just read http://www.soilfoodweb.com/sfi_approach3.html

Long-Brewing Compost Tea or LBCT for short; what this does is create a type of monoculture. Basically there is not that much diversity in this tea because towards the end only a certain type of bacteria/fungi thrive/


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## Da Almighty Jew (Mar 16, 2012)

this is weed leaf copost tea from flowering plants. What i did was put a couple handfuls of leaves in a couple gallons of water and bubbled for 24 hours. It started foaming really good. But the smell wasn't bad but not as pleasent as i would like. so i added a half tbls to it and kept bubbling and it smells better. i can't wait tp see if this is beneficial.


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## Buddy Hemphill (Mar 16, 2012)

what did you add?


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## Da Almighty Jew (Mar 16, 2012)

i added nothing.. just bubbled leaves for 24 hours, then added 1/2 tbls molasses and it's still bubbling.


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## Matt Rize (Mar 17, 2012)

REPOST TIME

The Flav, vegan organic, from seed.


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## LILBSDAD (Mar 17, 2012)

http://www.jahtruth.com/


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## LILBSDAD (Mar 17, 2012)

Too soon????


----------



## Matt Rize (Mar 17, 2012)

THE FLAV MACRO


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## Matt Rize (Mar 17, 2012)

The Flav: Living


----------



## Matt Rize (Mar 17, 2012)

The Flav: Flower from Fan Leaf


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## Matt Rize (Mar 17, 2012)

Backwards in time. The Flav


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## Matt Rize (Mar 17, 2012)

Plushberry, Two Phenos, Vegan Organic Indoor
For 215 Patients at Collective Conscious Apothecary in Hopland California


----------



## Da Almighty Jew (Mar 17, 2012)

damn it, im trying to like stuff but it won't let me.


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## trichmasta (Mar 17, 2012)

Blaze up da chalice!! Irie shots Matt!!


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## farmer2424 (Mar 18, 2012)

Second that Matt. diggity dank


----------



## blueJ (Mar 20, 2012)

Thought i might share my experience dialing in my vegan organic methods, heavily adapted from and innitially inspired by kushman and rize & their techniques, so a big thank you to the fellas for stickin' with it and being public about it, even if it means getting bashed occasionally for it (ok a lot, i witnessed the whole icmag fiasco, and the first 20 pages here  ). 

A quick personal note, and an explanation i guess for why i left my perfectly good, very easy, very successful method of organic growing that included bone/blood/guano etc. I believe it is very important that, as a society, even as a species, we begin to rely less and less on animal food/products/byproducts as i just don't think it's very sustainable in the long run especially, and specifically, because of our population and its scarry fast increase, and not to mention the ethical/moral side when you (I) think about what is involved in trying to feed that many people and on a global scale, tysons chicken farms/slaughterhouses don't make me feel very good about them tasty lil chicken nuggets on my daughters plate, ya feel me? 

In the first picture you see the difference between a not so well ammended mix (middle) showing the "mid-flower issues" that I, and i believe others, were having when feeding biocanna and _not_ in bioterra+ soil and probably _not _feeding enough/correctly (i.e. needs N longer into flower) and for me specifically, probably not having enough K, Mg and Ca (use RO water that pumps out @ ~2ppm) and on the sides are the lush looking ladies in a well ammended/balanced mix. For the most part everything else used is the same, allbeit the greener (younger) ones have had neem foliars 3x, and obviously the middle girls are @ about 6 weeks the other two just flipped a few days ago. The next two are sisters to the first green ladies but were put into flower two weeks earlier. We'll see how they look in a few more weeks, but I feel much better about this run & they are so much better developed @ this point and lush looking than the others ever were. 

I'll be glad to update as they get closer, to confirm my current observations/assumptions, as obviously they are 4 weeks behind.

Interestingly enough, yields obviously suffer (those will be 2+ oz's each), but quality of the flower itself and it's potency, smells etc etc do not suffer at all, if anything they seem enhanced! I know, lol probably just me trying to make the best out of seeing lesser yields, but doesn't it make sense that a plant will produce more trichs when stressed and trying to do its best to "attract" pollen and achieve its goal of reproducing? Has it ever been thought/discussed that potency/aroma levels & types may be related to attracting insects.... i know i'm rambling, its kickin' in now lol 

First one down below is when it was younger a few weeks ago, bogbubble lady, 2nd pic shows a starving sour bubble FEED ME SEYMORE! but damn the smoke is top top TOP shelf and behind it are younger Blue Kush's, a nice big fan leaf yea and then the happy little group of virgins snug in their tent, God Buds in the back and Bogbubble in the front/right......Well allright, that was a long one i'm doooooone for now  peace


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## NightbirdX (Mar 21, 2012)

good info here man. I am trying a new amended mix right now HF/OF based. It is keeping up nicely with my soilless run right now with a low regimen of BioCanna (5-10ml's.) No deficiency issues yet, about a week til flowering. But ya, I deal with the same yellowing issues, very frusterating, but I've been working it out slowly. It isn't tooo bad, but it still pisses me off. I am looking forward to doing some teas here soon. Gonna top dress something onto my Bubba Kush to see how it likes it and then I'm going to give a low dose BioCanna regimen on a heavy feeding SQ dominant Jackpot Royale that I have. The next batch are all going into the organic soil mix, which is cooking, so we'll see. I am excited about it.


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## Dank Raptor (Mar 21, 2012)

Nightbird I like to supplement with Natures nectar nitrogen whenever I see the slightest bit of yellowing happening with the Biocanna. It keeps them green all the way through, prevents leaf loss and encourages growth.


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## Da Almighty Jew (Mar 21, 2012)

Nature's nectar(n) seems to be the same as maxicrop liquid fish except it costs more??


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## NightbirdX (Mar 21, 2012)

What dosages do you use it at? I've tried it before, but it didn't work too well. Do you guys stack it on top of BioCanna or give it on a watering day? Some instruction would be appreciated. I have a bottle ready to use, I just haven't used it since I bought it because it didn't work all that well, which may be because I wasn't using it right.


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## blacktourmaline (Mar 22, 2012)

I find Natures Nectar Works Very well on the low range 5-8ml gallon, fed by itself in between biocanna etc., around two weeks before switch over or when leaves start to fade barely. Its works very well for keeping them green, but you don't want to use it in flower the first two weeks, i use biovega first two weeks of switch half strength with flora. then transition to full flora, and boost.


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## Dank Raptor (Mar 22, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> What dosages do you use it at? I've tried it before, but it didn't work too well. Do you guys stack it on top of BioCanna or give it on a watering day? Some instruction would be appreciated. I have a bottle ready to use, I just haven't used it since I bought it because it didn't work all that well, which may be because I wasn't using it right.


I usually stack in on top of the Biocanna because I feed with Biocanna every watering. I have found that if I miss a feeding to do an AACT all by itself then my plants end up being hungry half a week later. So even when I brew I add biocanna and the N.N.N. if it is needed. I usually feed at 3.5ml/GL with the NNN.

Someone asked if it is like liquid fish. No. It is protein hydrolysate with amino acids, completely solubulized and instantly available. Its like a veganic protein shake for your plants.


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## Da Almighty Jew (Mar 22, 2012)

Dank Raptor said:


> I usually stack in on top of the Biocanna because I feed with Biocanna every watering. I have found that if I miss a feeding to do an AACT all by itself then my plants end up being hungry half a week later. So even when I brew I add biocanna and the N.N.N. if it is needed. I usually feed at 3.5ml/GL with the NNN.
> 
> Someone asked if it is like liquid fish. No. It is protein hydrolysate with amino acids, completely solubulized and instantly available. Its like a veganic protein shake for your plants.


mmmm sounds delicious


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## NightbirdX (Mar 22, 2012)

what are you guys feeding at ml wise? in my soilless run, I bumped up to 30ml once per week, with a watering in between, it was just enough to start to burn my bubbas, the lightest feeder. I think im gonna cap at 25ml and give anything more on the watering days.


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## blueJ (Mar 22, 2012)

Natures Nectar N is soy based, i have a bottle, used it once as foliar, didn't help me lol. With my fairly heavily amended mix i don't think i'll ever use it, if i get early yellowing, within a week of flipping, i'll try it thought for sure. In veg i hardly fed biocanna and never more than 10ml/gal, been increasing my frequency of aact's though. 

For these first couple weeks in flower, for the good lookin' ladies i have pictured, i've gone kinda heavy, especially at the slightest sign of yellowing down below. i even messed up this last watering, i had two buckets bubbling, one was a base compost tea, and the other a bloom tea ready to go with 10ml veg, 15ml flores, 10ml boost and my usual fulpower, protekt, hygrozyme, calmag, molasses. Well i forgot i already fully mixed the bloom and added another 10ml/gal vega before i realized i already did, i said oh weill fuck it and fed the hungry bitches with it and they took it all like a champ, even probably benefiting more. So for me, this tells me that even with a well amended mix you can go heavy with biocanna w/out fears of burning. I had 45ml/gal total vega/flores/boost and they loved that shit, on top of 10ml molasses (honey ES actually for this particular watering), 5ml enzymes, 1ml protekt, 5ml fulpower, 5ml calmag

Question, are you guys using the bioboost @ every watering in bloom, or only combined with flores?

Has anyone switched away from perlite? I hate the dust so damn much, i'm gonna buy some big bags of rice hulls and try that out.


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## Dank Raptor (Mar 22, 2012)

I usually keep it between 10-15 ml/gal with the Biocanna in my amended soilless mix depending if I am adding other things or not.
As far as the boost. I use Honey ES instead.


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## Da Almighty Jew (Mar 22, 2012)

hey if anybody knows about this please help me out. Will bubbling maxicrop and natures nectar (K) potassium with a 1/2 tbls molasses will that make them more available. also will it make beneficials grow and multiply?


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## blueJ (Mar 23, 2012)

yeah bubble that shit up for a bit, but you need a scoop of compost or EWC to introduce the microbes otherwise i don't think there's microbes in NN-K or maxicrop to get the orgy started


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## blueJ (Mar 23, 2012)

This place has some vegan dry ferts
http://sweetcornorganicnursery.com/store/categories/Soil-Amendments-&-Fertilizers/Vegan-Soil-Amendments-&-Fertilizers/

Some good stuff here too
http://www.arbico-organics.com/category/organic-gardening-farming

This gal did her reasearch: the YumYum mix looks tasty, anyone seen that around?
http://gentleworld.org/easy-guide-to-vegan-organic-fertilizers/

Comfrey and Nettle i see ALL the time recomended on a lot of these vegan/vegetarian gardening sites. Anyone make teas or FPE's with 'em? Seen them commercially available? I'm gonna start some comfrey after snow melt but not sure about growing stinging nettle in the garden


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## Matt Rize (Mar 23, 2012)

i cant even keep up with yall! nice work everyone.

[video=youtube;ZxGHtVUgfYo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxGHtVUgfYo[/video]


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## PakaloloHui (Mar 23, 2012)

blueJ said:


> I'm gonna start some comfrey after snow melt but not sure about growing stinging nettle in the garden


You start the Comfrey I'll gather the stinging nettles, they grow mad wild where I'm @.

Great resources.


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## Matt Rize (Mar 23, 2012)

PakaloloHui said:


> You start the Comfrey I'll gather the stinging nettles, they grow mad wild where I'm @.
> 
> Great resources.


yo man, whats up with the youtube animosity? i just do the best i can do.
if you cant tell by now i hate being on camera. 
and if you read my message over there, promoting veganics is for sure not my priority right now. 
isn't this thread good enough? I feel like I've given everything I can here already.


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## Kalyx (Mar 23, 2012)

> _Question, are you guys using the bioboost @ every watering in bloom, or only combined with flores?
> 
> Has anyone switched away from perlite? I hate the dust so damn much, i'm gonna buy some big bags of rice hulls and try that out._


1. I have been trying to eliminate perlite from my mix too. Matt made a very valuable point early on in this thread, perlite is DEAD SPACE from a microbial perspective as its not a natural media. Danks! for sharing that, it gave me a whole new viewpoint on my mix. So basically; less perlite = more microbes = more mineralized (plant available) nutrition. HUGE in container organics and mama nature as we all know.
I still use some sort of aggregate (mostly dynarok medium size for a natural silica source) but have introduced 20% cocoNOT from vermicrop organics (replacing the usual 20% chunky perlite) and also use smartpots to aid in oxygen availabiity/ root health and get a wetter mix to dry out faster. Rize and this thread turned me onto CocoNOT and one guy claims nice results with it alone as soilless (matt felt differently when he used it alone.) It is redwood bark and kapok nuts, seems very fungus friendly and is REAL hydrophobic out of the bag. I wet it down with coco-wet prior to mixing it in a batch of soil (it is a bit dusty so hold on to your perlite mask). We lost a few good mix posts (and my first one too) in the 20 page void. Please re-post! I can post my mix if anyone is interesed, its based on whats already this thread.

2. I use BOOST every watering and every foliar, but I am willing to pay for UTMOST quality. To me it smells kinda like human babies, new in a non-plastic, non-industrial way! My plants (OGs) seem to love it. I agree with Matt its worth the premium, just dont get carried away (15ml per gal during initiation then 10 ml per gal, Foliar @ 15ml per gal too)

3. Put a hold on, haters! Keep life positive! Big-ups to Rize for raising the bar, and sharing the love/knowledge you have for our herb! 
"If you ain't gettin' hated on you ain't doing sh*t". Peace, if not, medicate until peaceful!


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## dickkhead (Mar 23, 2012)

I bubbled mico madness from extreme gardening and honey es with alaskan hummus and then added 10ml/gal BO calmag, NN 10 ml potasium/G, NN 10 ml phosphurus, 25ml bio flores, 5 ml bs molasses, 5 ml humic acid, 5 ml b-12 thrive alove, EJ mineral matrix, 15 ml boost, and 3 ml pk/13-14! ec was 2000 ppm I watered this am and when i came back and looked tonight the leaves were pointing sky high!! i thought the ppm were alot but as matt says feed heavy and my last round the buds seemed fluffy so im feeding heavy to the end this round!!


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## PakaloloHui (Mar 23, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> yo man, whats up with the youtube animosity? i just do the best i can do.
> if you cant tell by now i hate being on camera.
> and if you read my message over there, promoting veganics is for sure not my priority right now.
> isn't this thread good enough? I feel like I've given everything I can here already.


No Animosity, just trying to get you to switch it up a bit. Trying to push you to do it, was hoping for "o.k. guys you asked for it."
You know I bet you can't, then you show us kinda thing. Trust me I'm very interested and I'm sure others are, too.
Don't have to be on camera just a little narrative with some weekly updates.
It may not be your priority, but give it some thought.
Reply "Maybe in the future or something" IDK???? or delete it it's cool

But hey, keep whatcha doing it's PRIMO!!!

Rize Up! 

No Ka 'Oi


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## Da Almighty Jew (Mar 24, 2012)

hmm... how long before your post is deleted?


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## Da Almighty Jew (Mar 24, 2012)

bonkleesha get lost, you dont have any knowledge to input and we dont wanna read your dumb posts


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## malignant (Mar 24, 2012)

wow matt, you had a shitty night! trolls... hopefully he'll get banned, and none of us will ever have to suffer his pointlessness.

wow i just went back and read all the deleted crap,try not to get mad at the poor fool. seriously think about what kind of person you would have to be and how empty, lonely, and meaningless your life would have to be to exist in that low level of consciousness. i feel sorry for bonkleesha, his life must be pathetic, and his life must be meaningless to be that miserable of a soul.


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## Buddy Hemphill (Mar 25, 2012)

teeheehee....


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## trichmasta (Mar 25, 2012)

I've been running the NN line with great success!! I followed the feed chart during early veg(n-8ml, p-12ml,k-12ml) and have had amazing vegative growth, greener leaves, no deficiencies, burn, nada!! I also added the Organa Add as a micro. 

In transition, i raised the N to around 10 ml/gal and gonna see if i can get to 16/gal....


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## blueJ (Mar 25, 2012)

hehe guess i missed all the fun.... #confused


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## blueJ (Mar 25, 2012)

Hey Kalyx, excellent first post, as it appears to be, & welcome!  Besides mention from Rize that kushman was using coconot for a minute, it's probably all my posts you are refering too, i don't think anyone else uses or recommends it quite like me LOL. COCONOT (i hate the name, cheesy & missleading) is really an excellent addition to my mix, my first vegan grow was in 100% coconot and in VEG i never had better results! As mentioned in previous posts, it is a tricky medium to flower in, and probably shouldn't use biocanna with it. Since that grow nearly a year ago i have been amending and amending and i currently have a bitchen mix that includes it:

first i mix 50/50 reused soil and the below "fresh mix" but my measurements have become less and less exact lol

1 bag coconot
1 bag organic soil(less) mix, right now i'm using Ednas organic, i plan on trying roots organic next, i think cocoir would be a great addition
1 bag vermicrop organics VermiBlend (it's VEGAN!)
1 bag EWC (big bag, 20lbs or something? 

so that base mix is 2:2:1:1 coconot/soil/compost/EWC

cut with some perlite, so that would probably make it 2:2:1:1:1 will use rice hulls next instead of perlite

then i add:
1 cup dolomite lime
1 cup alfalfa meal
1 cup kelp meal
1 cup neem sead meal
1 cup vegan mix by down to earth
1/2 cup epsom salt, i've used 1 cup with no notable difference


i think that's it, i plan on adding to the next mix

1 cup insect frass
1 cup azomite
1 cup soft rock phosphate, maybe

For fresh clones i get a few with some distorted growth for about a week, then they take off, others eat it up like nothin', so now for clones/seedlings i layer an inch or so of this "hot" mix on the bottom and then fill it up with light warrior or whatever

Soon i will do a side by side with a 100% vegan mix (our set back right now is the guanos/bone/feather whatever meals in the bags of soil we use)

Here it is:

1st the base mix as recomended by vermicrop organics
1 bag coconot
1 bag vermiblend

then amend with the above amendments, feed with my current supps/nutes and i'll have a 100% vegan grow that i believe will be successful! 

Perlite may be "dead space" as it is just puffed glass, completely innert, but in my experiences the added pockets of air is more valuable than _not _having
any.



Kalyx said:


> 1. I have been trying to eliminate perlite from my mix too. Matt made a very valuable point early on in this thread, perlite is DEAD SPACE from a microbial perspective as its not a natural media. Danks! for sharing that, it gave me a whole new viewpoint on my mix. So basically; less perlite = more microbes = more mineralized (plant available) nutrition. HUGE in container organics and mama nature as we all know.
> I still use some sort of aggregate (mostly dynarok medium size for a natural silica source) but have introduced 20% cocoNOT from vermicrop organics (replacing the usual 20% chunky perlite) and also use smartpots to aid in oxygen availabiity/ root health and get a wetter mix to dry out faster. Rize and this thread turned me onto CocoNOT and one guy claims nice results with it alone as soilless (matt felt differently when he used it alone.) It is redwood bark and kapok nuts, seems very fungus friendly and is REAL hydrophobic out of the bag. I wet it down with coco-wet prior to mixing it in a batch of soil (it is a bit dusty so hold on to your perlite mask). We lost a few good mix posts (and my first one too) in the 20 page void. Please re-post! I can post my mix if anyone is interesed, its based on whats already this thread.
> 
> 2. I use BOOST every watering and every foliar, but I am willing to pay for UTMOST quality. To me it smells kinda like human babies, new in a non-plastic, non-industrial way! My plants (OGs) seem to love it. I agree with Matt its worth the premium, just dont get carried away (15ml per gal during initiation then 10 ml per gal, Foliar @ 15ml per gal too)
> ...


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## Kalyx (Mar 25, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Hey Kalyx, excellent first post, as it appears to be, & welcome!
> Perlite may be "dead space" as it is just puffed glass, completely innert, but in my experiences the added pockets of air is more valuable than _not _having
> any.


Thanks for the welcome BlueJ, and the info on coconot! I like it although am new to it (3 weeks into bloom on my OGs) but so far so good. Yes, I am a RIU rookie my first post disappeared with the last 20 pages??? I signed up to RIZE UP! to the next level in my personal medical garden (pain patient). Quality is THE goal in this garden.

I have never grown a plant without (preferably chunky) perlite. Usually 20+%. Oxygen availability in a living organic rhizosphere is SOOO important. Smart/root/fabric pots changed heavy perlite use for me! They save labor for noobs, no more mixing in more perlite to dry out fast. For more advanced growers we are usually mixing anyway so not as big a deal. But now I run a heavier mix in large (10 gallon w/handle) fabric pots. Im currently giving each plant 1.5 gallons every four days. I alternate biocanna plus supplements, and vegan compost tea every other watering and water in slow (another benefit of fabric pots; they make you!) My feeding and mix are wholly based on this thread! DANKS ALOT to everyone who has contributed! Even if you are MR. ORGANIC make the time to READ IT ALL and you'll learn A LOT, I sure did. I've been growing organic a long time, but am very excited to go HIGHER on the quest for QUALITY meds. Danks again Matt and everyone else at RIU.


Kalyx's NOT VEGAN SOIL MIX for Rize up! Veganic Gardening

From what I've read (CANNA also confirms) FFHF and other less hot peat mixes tend to fall short for BIO CANNA based veganics so I based my mix on FFOF. Also, with (Rize up!) veganic gardening techniques (super-alive mostly vegan amended soilless) perlite has been referred to as a lifeless void in the rhizosphere. Thus, I have tried to keep (chunky... always chunky) perlite use to a minimum. It only shows up in the FFOF and my (re-used) mostly dyna rok (with some chunky perlite) aggregate. I also use RO water. (All the talk about purity, I sure don't trust the tap in my area!)

THE BASE:

1.5 cu ft FFOF (about 10 gal, 50%)
Coconut Coir (2 gal, 10%)
"Aggregate" --Mine is Mostly Dyna Rok Silica Stone with some chunky perlite, all re-used (2 gal, 10%)
COCONOT (2 gal, 10%)
EWC (2 gal, 10%)
Ancient Forest Alaska Humus (2 gal, 10%)

*if you cant get COCONOT, and dyna-rok you _could_ easily substitute chunky perlite (4 gal, 20%) instead of the harder to find two as the "Aggregate" in this mix. You just lose the non-synth silica  from dyna-rok and the increased volume for your microbes that the COCONOT offers opposed to perlite. If you cant find Ancient Forest you _could_ substitute any high quality compost with high microbe diversity. Or you could just up it to 20% EWC (no fungi in EWC though).
*I may try roots organic potting soil instead of FFOF, based on what sub has to say and I just hate supporting the big guy (sorry willy)

AMENDMENTS (can go this high but I didn't):

2 cups Dolomite Lime (1 cup/ ft3)
2 cups Baseline Granular Concentrate Peat Humus (1 cup/ ft3)
2 cups Powdered Glacial Rock (1 cup/ ft3)
2 cups Alfalfa Meal (1 cup/ ft3)
1 cup Kelp Meal (.5 cup/ ft3)
1 cup Azomite (.5 cup/ ft3)
.25 cup Epsom Salts
Complete Inoculant (Bacteria and Fungi and Myco; whole SPORES are better than propagules!) like GreenGro Granular Plus Mycorrhizae

I mix everything thoroughly and water in about 2 gallons of RO with liquid kelp and micros. Ideally I let it sit for at least two weeks stirring every five days. However, I usually transplant into it in a few days with one stir before transplant and the plants all LOVE it cured or not.

I use this mix straight for the last veg transplant (5 gal fabric pot in my garden) and the final (bloom) transplant (10 gallon fabric pot for me). For the first veg transplant (1 gallon fabric pot) I cut this mix 50/50: NotVmix/(equal parts coconot, coco coir, aggregate).

Post up those mixes we lost in the 20 page void everybody. And Buddy please repost all that non-bottle veganic input knowledge please! Sidenote: that is my goal too, grow top quality crops with all locally sourced wholesome, hand-made with love inputs in a sustainable, or at least low impact garden/farm. No bottles, just the Earth and its 'crobes! (sorry canna)


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## Daemonn789 (Mar 25, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> Thanks for the welcome BlueJ, and the info on coconot! I like it although am new to it (3 weeks into bloom on my OGs) but so far so good. Yes, I am a RIU rookie my first post disappeared with the last 20 pages??? I signed up to RIZE UP! to the next level in my personal medical garden (pain patient). Quality is THE goal in this garden.
> 
> I have never grown a plant without (preferably chunky) perlite. Usually 20+%. Oxygen availability in a living organic rhizosphere is SOOO important. Smart/root/fabric pots changed heavy perlite use for me! They save labor for noobs, no more mixing in more perlite to dry out fast. For more advanced growers we are usually mixing anyway so not as big a deal. But now I run a heavier mix in large (10 gallon w/handle) fabric pots. Im currently giving each plant 1.5 gallons every four days. I alternate biocanna plus supplements, and vegan compost tea every other watering and water in slow (another benefit of fabric pots; they make you!) My feeding and mix are wholly based on this thread! DANKS ALOT to everyone who has contributed! Even if you are MR. ORGANIC make the time to READ IT ALL and you'll learn A LOT, I sure did. I've been growing organic a long time, but am very excited to go HIGHER on the quest for QUALITY meds. Danks again Matt and everyone else at RIU.
> 
> ...


+++ Rep! Too much good info in your post. I am currently on my 2nd grow, originally I purchased the full line of Humboldt Organic Nutrients, FFOF, FFHF, and FFLW. Figured I'd give "bottled" organics a try because I was in the process of just moving to California and also relocating from house to house after arriving. I've been in this wonderful place for about 8 months and have started my whole set up from scratch so I am just getting everything going here.

My first grow ever blew some people away, that convinced me organics was wayyyy better than chem growing. Taste, flavor, colors, everything!! Now, as people are exploring the next level of quality, I too must get aboard this train! I have finally settled into my permanent home and have begun my backyard garden and soil mix. I plan on a mix nearly identical to this and this helps quite a lot... Thanks again for the great post. I hope to have a fully veganic indoor garden up and running in about a month or two... RIZE UP!


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## 1337hacker (Mar 25, 2012)

So I'm really confused... all I am reading here is people are mixing Biocanna with their own ACTs of random nature.... why?

Are the fpe's that come in biocanna not already powerful enough to handle the microherd / feeding that is already going on? The basis of most things I have read about veganics is letting your products ferment, not oxidizing them.

Edit: Also isn't adding in the microorganisms that aren't already established via the fermented product just going to counter act what is already going on?


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## Daemonn789 (Mar 26, 2012)

1337hacker said:


> So I'm really confused... all I am reading here is people are mixing Biocanna with their own ACTs of random nature.... why?
> 
> Are the fpe's that come in biocanna not already powerful enough to handle the microherd / feeding that is already going on? The basis of most things I have read about veganics is letting your products ferment, not oxidizing them.
> 
> Edit: Also isn't adding in the microorganisms that aren't already established via the fermented product just going to counter act what is already going on?



If that's all you're reading... you need to reread the thread.

EDIT: There's many pages... but lots of info. People are doing many things relating to organics and also vegan growing. Some people combine bottled products with home made soils/teas and others go all home made. This is a thread where people are sharing their experience and exploring different possibilities. 

And also I don't think I read many posts where people are talking about biocanna tea mixes as a main topic... simply using the biocanna line along with other products and in conjunction with teas.


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## Dank Raptor (Mar 26, 2012)

1337hacker said:


> So I'm really confused... all I am reading here is people are mixing Biocanna with their own ACTs of random nature.... why?
> 
> Are the fpe's that come in biocanna not already powerful enough to handle the microherd / feeding that is already going on? The basis of most things I have read about veganics is letting your products ferment, not oxidizing them.
> 
> Edit: Also isn't adding in the microorganisms that aren't already established via the fermented product just going to counter act what is already going on?


Yes Biocannas plenty powerful enough to feed the microherd but we push our plants for maximum yield. Letting products ferment is the whole reason why I buy Biocanna. It is a fermented plant extract. I could make it myself but I don't wanna deal with the smelly mess.

Microorganisms dont counteract. They work together. Aerobic bacteria consumes anaerobic bacteria and makes it good again. It is a process used in wastewater treatment where bacteria is used to eliminate the bad stuff. Its also used in our garden but the bacteria feed our plants. If some type of microorganism is not liked by the microherd it will become food.


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## blueJ (Mar 26, 2012)

BC God Bud, somewhere between 3 & 4 weeks, a short 'n fat pheno, never topped, birthday was in the 1st week of jan. i think (from seed) startin to smell like one mean girl, more spicy than sweet.

It's a little enhanced from the light, but in regards to the yellowing on the lower fans in the last pic - would you say 
1. perfectly normal for this age 
2. oldest leaves from main stem, normal aging/dying of old leaves
3. keep feeding her, first signs that she's gettin' hungry!


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## blueJ (Mar 27, 2012)

This is the more sativa leaning pheno - God Bud, and it's all sweet 'n fruity smellin', no spice and extra frosty for this age , a four footer, quite the stretcher after flipped


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## blueJ (Mar 27, 2012)

http://www.agroecology.org/Case Studies/rice_hull.html

Good info supporting what i want to do with rice hulls in place of perlite, notably:

_Using rice hulls and rice hull/manure composts and vermicomposts improves soil fertility, soil organic matter, soil physical properties, and soil structure over the long-term. Rice hull compost is especially useful in boosting the humus content of soil organic matter, providing a long-term source of nutrients that will gradually become available. 

_A 50lb bag seems to run about $30 online and expands to 7CuF or something like that, will see if my local shop will let me deliver to them, or maybe start carrying it themselves. Maybe add new rice hulls to the mix every 3 runs or so as it starts to decompose and add to the goodness of the soil, rather than perlite which......turns to inert mush over time?

http://www.groworganic.com/rice-hulls-50-lb-bag.html


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## farmer2424 (Mar 27, 2012)

Hey Matt, didn't know where to post this so i figured u'd be around here. just wanted to show off some kandy kush bubble i pulled the other day. I use the 1 gal kit, and run the 160,120,90,73,45, and 25 at the end. I use subs methods for the most part except for a more controlled 30 minute stir, and i layer my material more. After watching your hash making video i've incorporated your spraying techniques to push the plant material thorough more and it yields a really clean end product. using the sprayer makes scraping the bags so much easier, your techniques have really help my friend and I step our hash game up. i also find that letting the trim reduce for 24 hours before freezing really helps reduce the plant matter in the bags, especially with the longer stir. i pulled this 9 gram run off of a third of a freezer bag of outdoor kandy kush trim. The 90 and 73 are full melt clear dome, and the 120 is almost full melt. the 90 chunk weighed 3.8g. 
Without your techniques and videos, we wouldn't be pulling near this quality. Rize up! first two screen pics are 120,90, then with the 73 chunk. individual pics are 120µi, next 3 pics are the 90µi, the 73µi, then the 45µi in the tin. 
View attachment 2092755View attachment 2092758View attachment 2092754View attachment 2092757View attachment 2092756View attachment 2092753


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## malignant (Mar 27, 2012)

that would go here, i cant move it into the correct place because that would be under matt's jurisdiction. 
https://www.rollitup.org/concentrates-extracts/367111-bubble-hash-aka-ice-wax.html if you havent checked out this thread, do! its awesome.


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## farmer2424 (Mar 27, 2012)

malignant said:


> that would go here, i cant move it into the correct place because that would be under matt's jurisdiction.
> https://www.rollitup.org/concentrates-extracts/367111-bubble-hash-aka-ice-wax.html if you havent checked out this thread, do! its awesome.


thank you very much!!


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## romulan23 (Mar 27, 2012)

Is Bio Canna Done in the USA. I heard it is no longer going to be available: 9this is what i read- Due to changes in Organic certification Canna Bio products will not be available for sale in the US. Please contact us for suitable alternatives. Supply is limited!

What are you going to switch too?


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## romulan23 (Mar 27, 2012)

Matt
How do feel about using 3 five gallon bags in the machine istead of the 20 gallon bag...


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## blueJ (Mar 29, 2012)

Man these girls are too hungry! I thought i'd be able to (i wanted to) fit in a plain water or plain compost tea in between feedings, but this is the 4th heavy feeding in a row and they're looking great, but the yellowing is becoming more pronounced than i would want at this point on the lower fans, given i haven't trimmed the lower leaves at all, i usually keep it real clean down below, but i didn't do any trimming down below, hehe. Not an unhealthy dying crispy yellowing, more of a fading, leaves down there still perky and healthy looking, I just think it's too soon at about 4 weeks for "fall colors." When do you all like to see any color change? I also noticed when i used the humboldt nutes 0-10-0 it yellowed more lol, the less i use it the better my plants respond, so i'm gonna drop it all together, and i'm hardly using the technaflora 1-1-16, i don't think high percentages of NPK (over 10 or so) is beneficial or needed in a plant based organic system, with emphasis on microbes. Being well infected with AM fungi requires less P, in rereading parts of Teaming with Microbes it stresses that high P feedings will overdose your fungi, so that makes sense i guess.

I think i will topdress with some amendments (compost/kelp/azomite/green sand/ewc maybe) a week before flipping to 12/12 to help out and here's what they've been getting each watering and only showing signs that she wants more N, at least.

10ml vega
15ml flores
15ml boost
10ml molasses/honey es
5ml fulpower
5ml go calmag
3ml hygrozyme
1ml protekt


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## Kb's seeds (Mar 29, 2012)

veganics huh? i remeber when kushman first started writing about this style of growing and i must admit im am alittle confused on how it repilcates nature better than organics. yea the earths soil does have alota composted plant matter in them but i dont think people are realizing how much animals effect our growing enivorment. our earths natural soil has alota fresh manure being delivered constantly, also buried down are bones of animals even dinsaurs amd still fleshy dead animals being decomposed, there are also a wide variety of insects that die seasonally and get broken into the soil, flies are a great example of bugs tha are constantly in the outdoor enivomrent that die and get broken into the soil, worm castings are not veganic, worms eat and shit they are living creatures not living plants so using worm casting is not all veganic in my book, also considering microbes floursih in guano or casting based teas u might have a hard time brewing a all vegainc tea, even kushman uses a small amount of liquid bone meal (tho i dont agree with the brand, alota liquid nutes will have bad effect on microbes regardless of what company says) you can only go so far with rock phosphate for your phosphorous boost u need that bone meal or fruit bat guano to get good yields, all in all i think veganics is jus a snappy name for a style of liquid organic feeding, choosing more plant based products over animal products, but i dont think a 100% veganic feeding style would be more benificial than one tha incorperate animaly by products, nature has been using animal by products to ferterlize herself long before humans new how to grow any plants, why should we think that we know better than nature


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## Kb's seeds (Mar 29, 2012)

but hey if veganics is working for you keep at it! the more u learn about a certain style of feeding the better and better ur gona get!


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## dickkhead (Mar 29, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Man these girls are too hungry! I thought i'd be able to (i wanted to) fit in a plain water or plain compost tea in between feedings, but this is the 4th heavy feeding in a row and they're looking great, but the yellowing is becoming more pronounced than i would want at this point on the lower fans, given i haven't trimmed the lower leaves at all, i usually keep it real clean down below, but i didn't do any trimming down below, hehe. Not an unhealthy dying crispy yellowing, more of a fading, leaves down there still perky and healthy looking, I just think it's too soon at about 4 weeks for "fall colors." When do you all like to see any color change? I also noticed when i used the humboldt nutes 0-10-0 it yellowed more lol, the less i use it the better my plants respond, so i'm gonna drop it all together, and i'm hardly using the technaflora 1-1-16, i don't think high percentages of NPK (over 10 or so) is beneficial or needed in a plant based organic system, with emphasis on microbes. Being well infected with AM fungi requires less P, in rereading parts of Teaming with Microbes it stresses that high P feedings will overdose your fungi, so that makes sense i guess.
> 
> I think i will topdress with some amendments (compost/kelp/azomite/green sand/ewc maybe) a week before flipping to 12/12 to help out and here's what they've been getting each watering and only showing signs that she wants more N, at least.
> 
> ...


I was thinking about adding the full owner till I saw the price! Is it worth it? My first 2 girls pineapple express and heavy duty fruity aare all jarred up first veganic grow and people are realy liking it so far! Just germed 3 space dawgs,acid, and og. I'm excited to see how they come out with veganics


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## blueJ (Mar 29, 2012)

I hear ya KB's and I don't disagree - but nature didn't intend to be indoor under lights & fans though  so i will go a few more runs leaning strongly towards 100% plant based, if i get there then awesome, if i'm not going to get the yields i want then I wouldn't be opposed to a guano tea or two in midflower. I have a recipe for a 100% plant based soil mix & 100% plant based nutrient schedule - i will have some room on my next run and will do 4 plants or so like this and see what happens.... i haven't seen what kyle's been up to, where are you getting your info, i.e. him using liquid bone meal, his medicalmarijuana.com site isn't updated much anymore....

dickhead, i like the fulpower! i pay $50/gallon and that will last a long time, the smaller bottle lasted me a few months, so cost isn't so much an issue like the bioboost is lol, the gals are happy so i think it's doing its part to aid in nutrient uptake, and when i make a fungal dominant tea i add the fulpower & liquid kelp.


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## Matt Rize (Mar 29, 2012)

Kb's seeds said:


> veganics huh? i remeber when kushman first started writing about this style of growing and i must admit im am alittle confused on how it repilcates nature better than organics. yea the earths soil does have alota composted plant matter in them but i dont think people are realizing how much animals effect our growing enivorment. our earths natural soil has alota fresh manure being delivered constantly, also buried down are bones of animals even dinsaurs amd still fleshy dead animals being decomposed, there are also a wide variety of insects that die seasonally and get broken into the soil, flies are a great example of bugs tha are constantly in the outdoor enivomrent that die and get broken into the soil, worm castings are not veganic, worms eat and shit they are living creatures not living plants so using worm casting is not all veganic in my book, also considering microbes floursih in guano or casting based teas u might have a hard time brewing a all vegainc tea, even kushman uses a small amount of liquid bone meal (tho i dont agree with the brand, alota liquid nutes will have bad effect on microbes regardless of what company says) you can only go so far with rock phosphate for your phosphorous boost u need that bone meal or fruit bat guano to get good yields, all in all i think veganics is jus a snappy name for a style of liquid organic feeding, choosing more plant based products over animal products, but i dont think a 100% veganic feeding style would be more benificial than one tha incorperate animaly by products, nature has been using animal by products to ferterlize herself long before humans new how to grow any plants, why should we think that we know better than nature


hey thanks for posting. in reference to vegan organic horticulture, its been around for a long long time, long before kushman was a speck in his fathers eye. ancient asian culture has shown the efficacy and usefulness of vegan organic horticulture. the argument that animal products are need to produce full flavor or full resin is long dead, I slew them personally. 

and I have to say, I thought Kushman was full of shit until I dialed in my vegan garden (way beyond his idea of veganics). Now the results speak for themselves, both high ranking THC%s and superb flavor. Low yields tho...

Why should we think we know better than nature? That is not really the issue at all. Nature doesn't grow plants with the intention of smoking them. That is uniquely human, and only our experiences can tell us what affects the smoke quality of a plant.


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## dickkhead (Mar 29, 2012)

Thanks blue j I'll prob add it to the 101000200101 bottles I already have lol. Kinda getting sick of all these bottles I think I might try subs super soil next. Mix the soil and hook the girls up with some Blu mats or self feed watering system and you have a fully automated system!!


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## Dank Raptor (Mar 29, 2012)

blueJ said:


> I also noticed when i used the humboldt nutes 0-10-0 it yellowed more lol, the less i use it the better my plants respond, so i'm gonna drop it all together, and i'm hardly using the technaflora 1-1-16,



Sup BlueJ one thing I noticed.. Too much sugars, example: using too much molasses or Honey ES will raise the amount of carbon in your soil and will drop the nitrogen levels in your plant according to another user on RIU. I noticed this seems to be true. I fed with less honey es this round and my plants are a lot greener. Then again, I have also used more N. this time also.


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## blueJ (Mar 29, 2012)

HHhhmmm, i'll think on that a bit, the honey ES i only use once a week (if i remember) in flower, in lieu of molasses or i do 50/50 type of thing. And molasses goes in every watering or tea but lately only @ 30ml/5 gal - how much do you all use?

Thanks for bringing this up though, as i was trying to think "what else could cause early yellowing/fading (from bottom up) _besides_ a lack of N? Trying to brainstorm 'n make sure i covered all the bases ya know - it's lookin like a fat harvest this time around though, so it's def. improving, HUGE improvement over last round, i should post a side by side lol


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## PakaloloHui (Mar 29, 2012)

In response to


Matt Rize said:


> I dialed in my vegan garden (way beyond his idea of veganics). QUOTE]
> 
> Not trying to be a dick Matt, but would you please do a journal of your next grow and post all feedings and such. It might help to keep the HATERS at bay. Like you said Veganics is not high yielding so be sure to emphasize that. Your flowers are beautiful from beginning to end, your products are TOP SHELF, you have the expertise and the camera gear to take some nice shots, or vidz. to put together a great thread or journal a grow for us.
> 
> ...


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## blueJ (Mar 29, 2012)

...and coming from someone that is _almost_ dialed in, i second that!


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## Jharris (Mar 29, 2012)

Yes would be nice to see the dial'd regiment!


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## dickkhead (Mar 29, 2012)

yes I agree thatd be awesome!!


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## dickkhead (Mar 29, 2012)

blue j I also just fead with honey es and molasses and my plant has been green its whole life (5months old) until i used it. now I know why its yellowing thanks guys!!


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## cannawizard (Mar 30, 2012)

*this (and some other threads) on RIU are the only ones i check on these days; big ups to mr Rize for the 'vegan organic' info updates~

keep up the good work bruh


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## NightbirdX (Mar 30, 2012)

Man, you know what? I don't know what you guys are talking about with this whole low yield thing. I have friends that run technaflora, and Dynagro in hydro, and fox farm, aoo, canna, and GO in soil, and I rank up there with best higest yields. Even my "bad" shit is keeping my patients incredibly happy, and me too and I'm just a pot snob, lol. Granted, I have a rotation and typically I veg for 6-8 weeks, but I still get 3 oz avg on a bad run. I've had 5 oz avg on good runs, all using BioCanna in an amended soilless mix.


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## blueJ (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm not gona pull 10 oz's from a 5 gal lol but i know i can now get 4 to 5 average, the group shot below, i think they're about 40 days into flower (don't like that much yellow quite yet), the other two are closer up of the same girls, the veg pic is a sour bubble just going into flower today, we'll see if some top dressing and even more N a little longer will keep the yellowing at bay another week or so into flower, although it might not be such a bad thing, they're in the home stretch now & fattening up very nicely!


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## Kb's seeds (Mar 30, 2012)

blueJ said:


> I hear ya KB's and I don't disagree - but nature didn't intend to be indoor under lights & fans though  so i will go a few more runs leaning strongly towards 100% plant based, if i get there then awesome, if i'm not going to get the yields i want then I wouldn't be opposed to a guano tea or two in midflower. I have a recipe for a 100% plant based soil mix & 100% plant based nutrient schedule - i will have some room on my next run and will do 4 plants or so like this and see what happens.... i haven't seen what kyle's been up to, where are you getting your info, i.e. him using liquid bone meal, his medicalmarijuana.com site isn't updated much anymore....
> 
> dickhead, i like the fulpower! i pay $50/gallon and that will last a long time, the smaller bottle lasted me a few months, so cost isn't so much an issue like the bioboost is lol, the gals are happy so i think it's doing its part to aid in nutrient uptake, and when i make a fungal dominant tea i add the fulpower & liquid kelp.




the reason u havent seen wha ive been up to is tha i just joined this website two days ago havent had time to post all my pics but if u look at my page u will find a few, tho one thing i do find lame about this site is everyone questions everyone else i.e. i havent seen what kyles up to, this website is suppose to be about sharing and theorizing on different grow styles and pros and cons of those grow style, as far as where i got my info, read in the hightimes 420th issue about kyle kushmans veganics he clearly states in that articule (he wrote it) that he uses highly refined bone meal that has been proccessed to be colorless and ordorless, considering kushman wrote the articule himself i consider that a pretty valid piece of info, and ur right nature never itended to be indoors, but nature never intended us to try and grow plants differently than nature does, its called human intervention, i have seen alota veganic soil mix recipe and nute schedules but none that i would switch too, i use to use the humboldt nutrients organic line until this based year i have switched to a more different style i use more solid nutes and just teas, i have found mix happy frog potting soil with garden & bloome harvest supreme u will get a great soil mix full of nutrients, add in sum humisoil and sum fresh worm casting and blam! great organic soil mix also gives u room to add alittle extra food in, i like to mix in sum all purpose 5-5-5 with my soil for alittle extra punch of nutes, all in all there are quite a few ways to grow cannabis and none may be the best way, also whyd u call me kyle? im pretty sure tha name isnt on my profile anywhere/


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## Kb's seeds (Mar 30, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> hey thanks for posting. in reference to vegan organic horticulture, its been around for a long long time, long before kushman was a speck in his fathers eye. ancient asian culture has shown the efficacy and usefulness of vegan organic horticulture. the argument that animal products are need to produce full flavor or full resin is long dead, I slew them personally.
> 
> and I have to say, I thought Kushman was full of shit until I dialed in my vegan garden (way beyond his idea of veganics). Now the results speak for themselves, both high ranking THC%s and superb flavor. Low yields tho...
> 
> Why should we think we know better than nature? That is not really the issue at all. Nature doesn't grow plants with the intention of smoking them. That is uniquely human, and only our experiences can tell us what affects the smoke quality of a plant.



hey matt if u slew those arugments personally how come iver never heard of u? u would think that if someone could compeletly win the argument of veganics vs organics u would be mentioned somewhere or there would be sum pics of ur work somewhere, and if veganics is superior to organics how come i get great yields of superb tasting flowers that rank pretty high in thc (a few co ops have had my meds tested so i know where my thc percents are) when u say veganic is low yielding? and no shit nature doesnt grow plant with the intention of smoking them, also the co-op natures nexus has a wide variety of all veganic meds so ive tried quite a few all veganic versions of tahoe og, grape ape x blue hawiaan, chem#3 to name a few and it wasnt in any way superb to any organic cannabis


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 30, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> Man, you know what? I don't know what you guys are talking about with this whole low yield thing. I have friends that run technaflora, and Dynagro in hydro, and fox farm, aoo, canna, and GO in soil, and I rank up there with best higest yields. Even my "bad" shit is keeping my patients incredibly happy, and me too and I'm just a pot snob, lol. Granted, I have a rotation and typically I veg for 6-8 weeks, but I still get 3 oz avg on a bad run. I've had 5 oz avg on good runs, all using BioCanna in an amended soilless mix.


Yeah, I was gonna chime in with the same comment. I don't do Bio Canna, I use General Organics (which is also veganic) and I generally pull monster yields (my last crop averaged just under 8oz per). Quality is outstanding (and has gotten better than what you've sampled with me). I don't think veganic has to mean low yields at all.


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## Matt Rize (Mar 30, 2012)

Kb's seeds said:


> the reason u havent seen wha ive been up to is tha i just joined this website two days ago havent had time to post all my pics but if u look at my page u will find a few, tho one thing i do find lame about this site is everyone questions everyone else i.e. i havent seen what kyles up to, this website is suppose to be about sharing and theorizing on different grow styles and pros and cons of those grow style, as far as where i got my info, read in the hightimes 420th issue about kyle kushmans veganics he clearly states in that articule (he wrote it) that he uses highly refined bone meal that has been proccessed to be colorless and ordorless, considering kushman wrote the articule himself i consider that a pretty valid piece of info, and ur right nature never itended to be indoors, but nature never intended us to try and grow plants differently than nature does, its called human intervention, i have seen alota veganic soil mix recipe and nute schedules but none that i would switch too, i use to use the humboldt nutrients organic line until this based year i have switched to a more different style i use more solid nutes and just teas, i have found mix happy frog potting soil with garden & bloome harvest supreme u will get a great soil mix full of nutrients, add in sum humisoil and sum fresh worm casting and blam! great organic soil mix also gives u room to add alittle extra food in, i like to mix in sum all purpose 5-5-5 with my soil for alittle extra punch of nutes, all in all there are quite a few ways to grow cannabis and none may be the best way, also whyd u call me kyle? im pretty sure tha name isnt on my profile anywhere/


If you go back and reread that 420 issue article, its penned by "Ava Rize". Thats my sister. And that article is garbage, I came in after that and retaught Kushman what vegan organic means. Dude was using Pure Flowers and Rhino Skin, and calling it veganics.




Kb's seeds said:


> hey matt if u slew those arugments personally how come iver never heard of u? u would think that if someone could compeletly win the argument of veganics vs organics u would be mentioned somewhere or there would be sum pics of ur work somewhere, and if veganics is superior to organics how come i get great yields of superb tasting flowers that rank pretty high in thc (a few co ops have had my meds tested so i know where my thc percents are) when u say veganic is low yielding? and no shit nature doesnt grow plant with the intention of smoking them, also the co-op natures nexus has a wide variety of all veganic meds so ive tried quite a few all veganic versions of tahoe og, grape ape x blue hawiaan, chem#3 to name a few and it wasnt in any way superb to any organic cannabis


Well your question seems somewhat sarcastic, but in an effort to move this forward and not blow you off...
Why have you not heard of me? I don't know, and I don't really care. I make hash 70 hours a week. 
How come you get great yields? How the eff am I supposed to know the answers to these questions? Really? 
The "veganic" meds you tried were probably not actually vegan organic. Your arguments fail really hard. 

Haters gonna hate ey KB?


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## Matt Rize (Mar 30, 2012)

PakaloloHui said:


> In response to
> 
> 
> Matt Rize said:
> ...


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## blueJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Huh? I never called you Kyle & i wasn't asking about what you've been up to either 

you mentioned Kyle as if you knew him or i thought maybe you seen something recent, you didn't say it was from an old high times article, if it's the article i'm thinking of....

And yes, since the first time a human planted a seed and agriculture was born, it has been non-stop human intervention, no doubt about that.

Like you said, there's a million ways to grow and a thousand ways to grow successfully. I'm here to figure out the best way to grow my herb, my veggies my flowerbeds without using anything from animals. Plain and simple  Quality of flowers is superb and I only receive compliments - potent, smooth, tasty 




Kb's seeds said:


> the reason u havent seen wha ive been up to is tha i just joined this website two days ago havent had time to post all my pics but if u look at my page u will find a few, tho one thing i do find lame about this site is everyone questions everyone else i.e. i havent seen what kyles up to, this website is suppose to be about sharing and theorizing on different grow styles and pros and cons of those grow style, as far as where i got my info, read in the hightimes 420th issue about kyle kushmans veganics he clearly states in that articule (he wrote it) that he uses highly refined bone meal that has been proccessed to be colorless and ordorless, considering kushman wrote the articule himself i consider that a pretty valid piece of info, and ur right nature never itended to be indoors, but nature never intended us to try and grow plants differently than nature does, its called human intervention, i have seen alota veganic soil mix recipe and nute schedules but none that i would switch too, i use to use the humboldt nutrients organic line until this based year i have switched to a more different style i use more solid nutes and just teas, i have found mix happy frog potting soil with garden & bloome harvest supreme u will get a great soil mix full of nutrients, add in sum humisoil and sum fresh worm casting and blam! great organic soil mix also gives u room to add alittle extra food in, i like to mix in sum all purpose 5-5-5 with my soil for alittle extra punch of nutes, all in all there are quite a few ways to grow cannabis and none may be the best way, also whyd u call me kyle? im pretty sure tha name isnt on my profile anywhere/


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## blueJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> PakaloloHui said:
> 
> 
> > In response to
> ...


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## Matt Rize (Mar 30, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Having a rough time over their Matt?


Bro, when I get the same requests, from the same people, its frustrating. Fuck a grow journal. I have no secrets. I barely grow these days. Veganics is just another form of higher organics, its an idea, not a specific way to grow using specific products.


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## NightbirdX (Mar 30, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Yeah, I was gonna chime in with the same comment. I don't do Bio Canna, I use General Organics (which is also veganic) and I generally pull monster yields (my last crop averaged just under 8oz per). Quality is outstanding (and has gotten better than what you've sampled with me). I don't think veganic has to mean low yields at all.


We need to get together man. Let me know when you get some time. I'd love to catch up with you.


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## Kb's seeds (Mar 30, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Huh? I never called you Kyle & i wasn't asking about what you've been up to either
> 
> you mentioned Kyle as if you knew him or i thought maybe you seen something recent, you didn't say it was from an old high times article, if it's the article i'm thinking of....
> 
> ...


fasure, and like i said if its working for ya keep at it, ive seen sum of the pics the plants look pretty dank! sorry i guess i read it wrong thought u called me kyle lol whas like wtf wher'd u get that lol but ive only met kushman once back in 06 when he brought sum grape ape and stawberry cough clones to a buddy in norcal, i was lucky enough to be hanging out with my buddy when he dropped by but i dont know him personally


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## Kb's seeds (Mar 30, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> If you go back and reread that 420 issue article, its penned by "Ava Rize". Thats my sister. And that article is garbage, I came in after that and retaught Kushman what vegan organic means. Dude was using Pure Flowers and Rhino Skin, and calling it veganics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


was never tryin to hate mate my bad if u took it that way, jus askin question on a forum where questions are supposed to be asked, as far as the articule i never saw any mention of him using any advanced nute products, and i wasnt really askin u questions they were sarcastic to point out that veganics is not superior in any way, and the veganic meds i tried could have been true veganics could have not been idk, and as far as my arguement failing really hard i dont see any answers provided by u on how veganics is superior but hey haters gona hate ey matt? im not here to hate im here to disscuss aspects of growing the lovely plant known as cannabis so if u take my challenge for more knowledge possibly knowledge i can benifit from as hating on u idk what to tell u, but prove me wrong explain to me why veganics is superior im open to being proved wrong its one of the best ways to learn


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## blueJ (Mar 30, 2012)

it's all good KB  we're all here, at least initially, because we  so puff puff pass to ya'll!

Matt: "Veganics is just another form of higher organics, its an idea, not a specific way to grow using specific products." Exactly bro, that's why i post the shit i post, hoping someone might say "yeah bro that worked good" or "nah bro that shit sux" etc etc...

but whatevs, i'll just keep mixing my soils and feeding my fungi and stay in my basement.....


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## Jharris (Mar 30, 2012)

I'd love for you to come grow my garden  but since that's not realistic was jus wanting the next best thing! A beginners wish for a seasoned bredren to pave the way! Just enlightened by ur work and dedication to the herb. Keep Rize'n the bar mang!


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## NightbirdX (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm the perspective guy, and I can see both sides of the field. The info is really all here, you just have to do some reading. And just like Matt said, my regimen changes every run, depending on issues I may have had, or new things I want to add to my soil, etc. I mean don't get me wrong, Matt was a little rugged, but seriously for the last year I have been reading this forum, people just come in and ask questions and don't do the research. (If the shoe fits wear it, if not it does not apply to you.) I can see how frusterating it can be. I'm not saying I know everything, but you really do see repeat questions every day. And no matter what anyone has ever advised me to do or whatever, in the end, I do what I want and gain the experience if it works or does not work. The basics for everything you need to know about veganic growing is in here, you just have to filter through it, come to your own conclusions and start somewhere, and from there, you tweak until it works for you. I use some of this advice from so and so, some of this from so and so. I have someone to thank for all of the different things that i use in my soil amendment, and someone to thank for all of the bottled supplements that I use also. I've been filtering through so many kinds over the last couple years, and have finally got to a point where I think I have what I like. Find the stuff that will compliment your grow, use it, if it doesn't work, get rid of it and find something else. We can all only give advice on what we know and use or have used. It may not work for other people in similar situations with different strains. I can already see that my regimen works great for some, not so well for others. Certain strains I ran in my system did crap for me, but I gave my moms to a good buddy, and they did great in his Fox Farms run. Find the strains you like that do well in YOUR system, get rid of the ones that don't or figure out how to tweak it so that it does. Best of luck to all.


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## Jharris (Mar 30, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> I'm the perspective guy, and I can see both sides of the field. The info is really all here, you just have to do some reading. And just like Matt said, my regimen changes every run, depending on issues I may have had, or new things I want to add to my soil, etc. I mean don't get me wrong, Matt was a little rugged, but seriously for the last year I have been reading this forum, people just come in and ask questions and don't do the research. (If the shoe fits wear it, if not it does not apply to you.) I can see how frusterating it can be. I'm not saying I know everything, but you really do see repeat questions every day. And no matter what anyone has ever advised me to do or whatever, in the end, I do what I want and gain the experience if it works or does not work. The basics for everything you need to know about veganic growing is in here, you just have to filter through it, come to your own conclusions and start somewhere, and from there, you tweak until it works for you. I use some of this advice from so and so, some of this from so and so. I have someone to thank for all of the different things that i use in my soil amendment, and someone to thank for all of the bottled supplements that I use also. I've been filtering through so many kinds over the last couple years, and have finally got to a point where I think I have what I like. Find the stuff that will compliment your grow, use it, if it doesn't work, get rid of it and find something else. We can all only give advice on what we know and use or have used. It may not work for other people in similar situations with different strains. I can already see that my regimen works great for some, not so well for others. Certain strains I ran in my system did crap for me, but I gave my moms to a good buddy, and they did great in his Fox Farms run. Find the strains you like that do well in YOUR system, get rid of the ones that don't or figure out how to tweak it so that it does. Best of luck to all.


Completely understandable when repeated ?'s get frustrating but what separates the best is the ones that can put up with the worse! 
They need a search button designated to the individual threads! Nobody starts a PRO! Beginners can be annoying but remember you were once there! One love everyone!


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## Da Almighty Jew (Mar 31, 2012)

i remember matt talking about how he smoked a bud of some organic and it was better than his vegan. so maybe he ran with that. if thats the case i wanna learn what sustainable organics is..


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## Matt Rize (Mar 31, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> I'm the perspective guy, and I can see both sides of the field. The info is really all here, you just have to do some reading. And just like Matt said, my regimen changes every run, depending on issues I may have had, or new things I want to add to my soil, etc. I mean don't get me wrong, Matt was a little rugged, but seriously for the last year I have been reading this forum, people just come in and ask questions and don't do the research. (If the shoe fits wear it, if not it does not apply to you.) I can see how frusterating it can be. I'm not saying I know everything, but you really do see repeat questions every day. And no matter what anyone has ever advised me to do or whatever, in the end, I do what I want and gain the experience if it works or does not work. The basics for everything you need to know about veganic growing is in here, you just have to filter through it, come to your own conclusions and start somewhere, and from there, you tweak until it works for you. I use some of this advice from so and so, some of this from so and so. I have someone to thank for all of the different things that i use in my soil amendment, and someone to thank for all of the bottled supplements that I use also. I've been filtering through so many kinds over the last couple years, and have finally got to a point where I think I have what I like. Find the stuff that will compliment your grow, use it, if it doesn't work, get rid of it and find something else. We can all only give advice on what we know and use or have used. It may not work for other people in similar situations with different strains. I can already see that my regimen works great for some, not so well for others. Certain strains I ran in my system did crap for me, but I gave my moms to a good buddy, and they did great in his Fox Farms run. Find the strains you like that do well in YOUR system, get rid of the ones that don't or figure out how to tweak it so that it does. Best of luck to all.


thank you kindly. put very well. 
if you others would go READ thru the thread you will see that nightbird is a vegan organic guru. its all here, there is very little left to be said on the basics.

*

, but prove me wrong explain to me why veganics is superior im open to being proved wrong its one of the best ways to learn​
​

*Bro, that is failing so hard I don't even have a joke for it. Really? Do you honestly think we have not gone over this ad nausea? The first pages are filled with background info from every vegan organic organization on the planet. read read read, then keep reading.
"prove me wrong" such a troll statement. Please, this isn't my first day like when I started this thread. Ask me an intelligent advanced vegan organic question that we have not covered and I will do my very best to get you any info, with sources, to help answer your question. 

Try it or don't. It does not affect me.

Come back with advanced vegan organic questions and this conversation will instantly change for the better. realize that this back and forth is just filling pages with garbage for others like you in the future to read thru.


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## NightbirdX (Mar 31, 2012)

PakaloloHui said:


> Here is a e-mail I got from Rize on the tube
> ...
> 
> Come to find out he is "not growing Veganic anymore, it's sustainable organics now" for the Rize.
> ...


I mean most of what he said is true. I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to blow him or anything, but all the info is there. Everything that he has said in the last few days is true. There is no right way, find the way that works for you, and that doesn't come from someone on the other side of your comp screen tells you. For all you know what they are telling you is complete bullshit. It comes from the experience of doing it and getting your hands dirty. 

As for guidelines, you just have to take what Canna gives you, which is very little, figure out how your plants work in their watering cycles and adapt to how your grow goes. BioCanna recommends to water 3 times per week at 8ml/gal in veg. My plants don't need watering 3 times a week. Maybe when they are due to be uppotted, but 90% of the time they get fed 2x per week. So I had issues trying to follow what they say. So I took their regimen and mixed it with mine. In Veg, like was said, Canna recommends feeding 8ml 3x/week. 8x3=24ml. I water 2x a week. 24/2= 12ml. In veg I start with 10ml/gal and then bump up to 12.5ml 2x a week. When they start looking a bit deficient like it isn't doing enough, I bump it up to 25ml 1x per week with a watering in between. When I go into flowering I start @ 25ml/gal Vega in week 1, in week 2 I bump up to 30ml/gal, in week 3, bump up to 25ml Flores in first watering an 10ml in second, if yellowing ensues, (normally at this time it does, I add in NN Nitrogen.) 25ml is the highest my lightest feeder (Bubba Kush) likes. So then I just start adding anything over the first 25ml to the second watering. Week 4-6 go the same except I will bump it up to 25ml first, 15ml second on weeks 5 or 6 if the plant will take it. If not I stay at about 30-35. Week 7 is 25ml, week 8 is 15ml, day 53 I start my flush. That is basically it for my soilless run. The organic soil run is much simpler. relying on about 15ml of the previous regimen coming from the soil, so it starts at about 10ml/gal in veg, and up to 15ml/gal each feeding in flowering. Use lots of innoculants, humic acid, some honey ES or Molasses is nice, though I think it is somewhat redundant to be honest as BioCanna is very molasses like. I find myself running less and less of it. 

There are plenty of us who have learned from him and are more than willing to share our info. So if he wants to pass the torch, so be it, but most of the people who started a while back learned through experience or "the hard way," that the BioCanna line is very incomplete. It is missing trace, low on P, low on N, no Cal Mag, no humics, and is pretty raw. We've each tweaked the basics to make up for that and adapt it to our grow. 

After 2 years of trying to do it my way, I've come to the conclusion that my way, though good, is not the proper way to use BioCanna. You need to use a good base soil with amendments to make up for the deficiencies of BioCanna. So if you are a newcomer to Veganics, TAKE THIS ADVICE, start with a good fertilized mix, (not Roots Organic, that shit is weak yo,) If you want to run a soilless mix and not have issues, go with GO. If you want to do it the hard way and run BioCanna in Soilless, you will probably come to the conclusion that Matt, myself, and many others came to and start with either BTP or a good fertilized mix. I use OF and HF, prob just gonna go with OF next run. I run 1ml Roots, 2.5ml Honey ES, and 10ml Vega in Veg and it works like a charm. If anyone wants to know what I'm starting with and how I run it, I've always been open, and I know many others, not gonna drop a dime on them but if they choose to chime in, feel free.

If you try to go the Soilless route, you end up amending your soilless medium so much that it resembles a soil mix with everything except nutritive value. In my Soilless run I use EWC, Kelp Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Dolomite lime, Insect Frass, Azomite, Mint Compost, Azos and Mykos, and TM-7 and Cytoplus Humic fulvic. I added the same amendment to a Happy Frog and Ocean Forest base, and it works like a charm. I'm actually going to add more amendments to the mix because I feel like my plants need more. The bitch of BioCanna is that I use so fucking much of it every time I use it. When you are dropping 25ml/gal in a 5 gal bucket= 125ml/5gal, multiply that by 6 equals 3/4 a bottle gone once a week. I started buying the shit by the gallon and it really doesnt last that much longer. The way I feel about it is that I mix the soil anyways, might as well try to get some nutrition out of it rather than relying on my incomplete nutrient line.

That being said, BioCanna does work great and if I didn't do well i wouldn't be using it. I do phenomenally with it. Great end product. Very smell, very potent, very flavorful. I just hate coughing up the money for it. Unless you are some science wiz, or like doing shit the hard way like me, don't use it in a soilless. Start right from the beginning and amend a soil mix properly and SUPPLEMENT with BioCanna, don't rely on it. The soil will give you what the BioCanna lacks. 

I understand how Matt feels, even though he may have been brash about it. Everyone wants to learn from the master, but the master has other shit to do than check our petty daily concerns. He obviously has moved on from it, and just kind of updates every now and again on his hash making. Don't hate on him, everyone moves on or finds other things to occupy their time. Just find some other sources of info and other people to ask for advice. I'm fairly certain there are more than a plethora of them around willing to chirp and chime in about their experiences.


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## Matt Rize (Mar 31, 2012)

Thanks again Nightbird. U da man.

Keep in mind that the difference between super light feeders and heavy feeders is about 1/2 strength to about triple (according to the bottle recipe). Most varieties are on the heavy end.
Heavily Amended/Aged/Living Soils need less supplementation than store bought bagged potting mixes.
OG is a bitch to grow. Thats about it


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## dickkhead (Mar 31, 2012)

Thanks for all that night bird!! I started in pro mix and amended with pretty much what u listed. The girls thrive in it! Matt what is sustainable organics are u going to start a thread?


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## Kb's seeds (Mar 31, 2012)

blueJ said:


> it's all good KB  we're all here, at least initially, because we  so puff puff pass to ya'll!
> 
> Matt: "Veganics is just another form of higher organics, its an idea, not a specific way to grow using specific products." Exactly bro, that's why i post the shit i post, hoping someone might say "yeah bro that worked good" or "nah bro that shit sux" etc etc...
> 
> but whatevs, i'll just keep mixing my soils and feeding my fungi and stay in my basement.....


lol hella brother! what soil mix are u using? are u running a peat based soilless mix like the mix from humboldt nutrients? i used to use the humboldt pre mix when i was a liquid bottle feeder, great mix! currently im tryin a few soil mixes, basic 3 or 4 part soil mixes, my newest mix is 1 part happy frog potting soil 1 part harvest supreme from garden & bloome 1 part fresh worm castings from earthworm soil factory and 1 part humisoil from bountea organics mix those together and cut a 1/3 with perlite and wala an nice organic mix that u just need to feed teas and molasses too


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## Kb's seeds (Mar 31, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> thank you kindly. put very well.
> if you others would go READ thru the thread you will see that nightbird is a vegan organic guru. its all here, there is very little left to be said on the basics.
> 
> *
> ...



bro regardless of what u think i have read alot of info on veganics, ive been doing this for almost a decade started with synthetic then had organics drilled in my head like a marine from sum old timers in the hills, and reading info only gets u so far as im sure u know, so intelligent question ......ok riddle me this for sources of nitrogen in veganics what are the best additives, i feed my worms in my worm bin bomb veggies so i know u can add potato skins to ur compost pile to get broken down into potassium i know u can add all types of veggies and fruits like cannalope rinds etc etc to get nutrient sources so i can see if u have a compost pile over a few years that u add veggies and fruits too u can get a great soucre of nutrition outa that compost from all that broken down plant matter, but what about nitrogen i know coffee beans raise nitrogen and i know tha worms love coffee beans so i kno thas one way of getting good nitrogen thru a plant or bean, whateva u call it, product, and i know rock phosphate adds calcium and phosphours but i really cant find any good nitrogen sources that compost quickly and add good nutrient source like coffee beans, are there any plants tha can compost quickly and add a source of nitrogen to the mix? i always compost my fan leaves and roots so i know the benifits of adding alota plant matter to my compost but any advice on the nitrogen would be appriciated


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 31, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> I mean most of what he said is true. I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to blow him or anything, but all the info is there. Everything that he has said in the last few days is true. There is no right way, find the way that works for you, and that doesn't come from someone on the other side of your comp screen tells you. For all you know what they are telling you is complete bullshit. It comes from the experience of doing it and getting your hands dirty.
> 
> As for guidelines, you just have to take what Canna gives you, which is very little, figure out how your plants work in their watering cycles and adapt to how your grow goes. BioCanna recommends to water 3 times per week at 8ml/gal in veg. My plants don't need watering 3 times a week. Maybe when they are due to be uppotted, but 90% of the time they get fed 2x per week. So I had issues trying to follow what they say. So I took their regimen and mixed it with mine. In Veg, like was said, Canna recommends feeding 8ml 3x/week. 8x3=24ml. I water 2x a week. 24/2= 12ml. In veg I start with 10ml/gal and then bump up to 12.5ml 2x a week. When they start looking a bit deficient like it isn't doing enough, I bump it up to 25ml 1x per week with a watering in between. When I go into flowering I start @ 25ml/gal Vega in week 1, in week 2 I bump up to 30ml/gal, in week 3, bump up to 25ml Flores in first watering an 10ml in second, if yellowing ensues, (normally at this time it does, I add in NN Nitrogen.) 25ml is the highest my lightest feeder (Bubba Kush) likes. So then I just start adding anything over the first 25ml to the second watering. Week 4-6 go the same except I will bump it up to 25ml first, 15ml second on weeks 5 or 6 if the plant will take it. If not I stay at about 30-35. Week 7 is 25ml, week 8 is 15ml, day 53 I start my flush. That is basically it for my soilless run. The organic soil run is much simpler. relying on about 15ml of the previous regimen coming from the soil, so it starts at about 10ml/gal in veg, and up to 15ml/gal each feeding in flowering. Use lots of innoculants, humic acid, some honey ES or Molasses is nice, though I think it is somewhat redundant to be honest as BioCanna is very molasses like. I find myself running less and less of it.
> 
> ...


Word, man. You have greater patience than I. I find I have a hard time giving the effort to help much anymore, nobody seems to appreciate it, just want to question everything...


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## NightbirdX (Mar 31, 2012)

Kb's seeds said:


> bro regardless of what u think i have read alot of info on veganics, ive been doing this for almost a decade started with synthetic then had organics drilled in my head like a marine from sum old timers in the hills, and reading info only gets u so far as im sure u know, so intelligent question ......ok riddle me this for sources of nitrogen in veganics what are the best additives, i feed my worms in my worm bin bomb veggies so i know u can add potato skins to ur compost pile to get broken down into potassium i know u can add all types of veggies and fruits like cannalope rinds etc etc to get nutrient sources so i can see if u have a compost pile over a few years that u add veggies and fruits too u can get a great soucre of nutrition outa that compost from all that broken down plant matter, but what about nitrogen i know coffee beans raise nitrogen and i know tha worms love coffee beans so i kno thas one way of getting good nitrogen thru a plant or bean, whateva u call it, product, and i know rock phosphate adds calcium and phosphours but i really cant find any good nitrogen sources that compost quickly and add good nutrient source like coffee beans, are there any plants tha can compost quickly and add a source of nitrogen to the mix? i always compost my fan leaves and roots so i know the benifits of adding alota plant matter to my compost but any advice on the nitrogen would be appriciated


For sources of N, I add alfalfa meal and kelp meal. They are low, but they are sources.



Wolverine97 said:


> Word, man. You have greater patience than I. I find I have a hard time giving the effort to help much anymore, nobody seems to appreciate it, just want to question everything...


I was one of those guys once, and I remember when Matt, Wolv, and UTA helped a struggling little whiner by the name of bird.  I have to pay it back where I can. It's just in my nature.


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## PakaloloHui (Mar 31, 2012)

Thanks Bird,

I would suggest moving your detailed post to the beggining of this thread. This thread was started some time ago, the reasons I have asked about updated grows and journals is because of the fact, that the info that was given at first has somewhat surely changed, through trial and error, so stated by yourself. It is always good to learn from our own mistakes, but I also find it is good to learn from others also, especially if you are going to invest in costly solutions.
I thought it would be nice to see this from the Rize, but so be it.

Remember Matt, you were rude to me and got all bent out of shape WAY before I got a little responsive.

All I did was ask for Info., and with all the B.S. you typed back, you could of done what the Noble Nightbird has done.
It takes alot to piss me off, I find this all funny really.

Thanks again bird, for posting your recent experience, feedback, and self conclussions. I'm sure others will also find this very useful if switching or are having current issues.

P.S. If anybody has any questions about what I have said, re-read the thread I've said it before it is all here!!! LOL sorry brah! had to make a funny like you.


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## malignant (Mar 31, 2012)

Matt, as far as reading through this thread for info there are 191 pages. Im going to make a sticky and close it that has the formulas and pertinent info for vegan growing. Im tired of the trolling and back and forth bs every time i need to look something up, and i doubt im the only one, and this thread has so much info, and id like to make a veganics reference page similar to the one I made from the organic tea thread from the outdoor section. just like a reference sheet. without the trolling or unnecessary chatter.


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## whitey78 (Mar 31, 2012)

Couldnt have said it any better NBX, its funny how people think matt is contractually obligated to teach them shit, and I'll be the first to admit I've asked plenty of Q?'s that would only require a 1 minute search but never did I EXPECT someone to post some kind of response or bust out a tutorial because I was too lazy to do one myself.... if someone threw a response out.... great.... if not, it taught my lazy ass to go looking for it rather than try to take the easy route and wait to have someone else figure it out or do the work for me... as well as I'm also guilty of trying to help people beyond my means as well.... and guess what...I probably dont have 1/10th of the shit any of the well known growers around here do for that matter, its insane what some people expect out of these guys who are only here to spread the word of the plant and how they go about growing it etc.....free of charge might I add so give the dude a break, think about what you have going during the course of your day, add a bunch of shit, or bad day with your wife or girlfriend then be trying to chill out with a bowl of something nice in front of the computer after said shitty day and then come on here and read posts by some whiney ass troll bitches that have demands.... Theres a thread going on in the subcool forum titled vortex sucks or something, same thing though someone comes on and posts how his whole vortex crop hermied.....which of course is 100% genetic, not the grower....same thing basically...someone wants subcool himself to deliver seeds himself personally and then grow them while hes there also......

As far as growers were all on our own path maybe if we're lucky enough we'll get to see what matt does next with whatever he does, its called evolution and the dudes style of growing is evolving, I really thought thats what being a grower was about, continually changing and trying to make a better end result. I thought for a hot second that I would just copy someone elses style of growing....bang...instant dank right....then I started asking dumb questions and finally got the point that I needed to go looking for the answers myself and once I did I figured out that I definitely didnt want anyone elses style of growing or whatever this is, I want to figure out my own ways of doing things, just as nightbird said, I take a little from this one, a little from that one and by the time it comes together its going to be good, but it will be my own and thats the important part, however matt, nightbirdX, wolverine?? (forgot the #'s), subcool and a million other people from these forums are teaching me how to grow by the shit thats already been written and posted a million times over, all anyone has to do is read whats already here and start trying things with a 1/2oz. of common sense will bring some amazing meds. Rome was not built in a day. 

Matt was the gasoline on the vegan organic fire, everyone else has to pitch in some wood and keep it burning......


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## Matt Rize (Mar 31, 2012)

whitey78 said:


> Couldnt have said it any better NBX, its funny how people think matt is contractually obligated to teach them shit...


LOL epic post 

you want to ask me grow questions and demand an answer? come to one of my free grow classes. try getting sarcastic in real life, see where that takes you. 

on here, I do what I want. And teaching sarcastic folks ain't happening.
Kb, you are done to me, dont expect responses. 
Paka, same. You think its cute to post private messages? Unsub, and have a nice life. 
Good thing the other vegan organic gurus are not as burnt out as I am.


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## malignant (Mar 31, 2012)

wow just finished reading the entire thread, cut and pasted 30 pages of good info to word, going to format it nicely and post a vegan cheat sheet for those who need to reference things. so epic, matt your plushberry are inspirational, im growing plushberry, dairy queen, and the lucky 13 freebies from that attitudes sale a few months back, using guano tea and soil secrets earth ambrosia/earth nectar, and tthier soil amenments line, auto hobbit is getting close and looks amazing, we want to do a run of vegan, but holding out for kushmans line of nutes, any word on that as of yet?


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## Matt Rize (Mar 31, 2012)

I had to delete another rude post, please let it go, its over. 

cottonseed meal has been covered here already, its probably the worst source of N due to cotton farming practices, search the thread and read all about it. this has been covered several times, and guru nightbird has already re-answered the question. I'll quote it below, this must be the 10th time now. 




NightbirdX said:


> For sources of N, I add alfalfa meal and kelp meal. They are low, but they are sources.
> 
> I was one of those guys once, and I remember when Matt, Wolv, and UTA helped a struggling little whiner by the name of bird.  I have to pay it back where I can. It's just in my nature.


Bro, you were nothing like that. And thanks again for handling the ?s


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## Matt Rize (Mar 31, 2012)

malignant said:


> wow just finished reading the entire thread, cut and pasted 30 pages of good info to word, going to format it nicely and post a vegan cheat sheet for those who need to reference things. so epic, matt your plushberry are inspirational, im growing plushberry, dairy queen, and the lucky 13 freebies from that attitudes sale a few months back, using guano tea and soil secrets earth ambrosia/earth nectar, and tthier soil amenments line, auto hobbit is getting close and looks amazing, we want to do a run of vegan, but holding out for kushmans line of nutes, any word on that as of yet?


I don't know man, he is doing his thing and I'm not trying to be a part of it. I think he is testing his line now. Thanks for going thru, its only 48 pages for me, and most of that is my giant pics. LOL

*

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to malignant again.





*


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## Bird Gymnastics (Mar 31, 2012)

Where can we find the cheat sheet? Ha ha I've read all the pages but hell reading all these noob trolls talk about how veganics is wack is tiredsome. I'm just glad I made the switch. Becoming a Jedi in this industry is what it's all about, right? Jk but for real, where is that cheat sheet? 

P.s. keep trucking Matt. Nobody knows how good veganics is until they try it themselves.  mmmmmm nice, clean smoke


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## malignant (Mar 31, 2012)

im making it now, its a ton of info. its a bit daunting of a task to comb through 191 pages to find specific details. its long overdue.


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## NightbirdX (Mar 31, 2012)

For sure, if you need help with anything Malignant, let me know. I'll come up with any info I can.


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## Matt Rize (Mar 31, 2012)

thank you both kindly. you know what i'm up to... riding that ice water horse.


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## Sr. Verde (Apr 1, 2012)

ice water horse...... I had to think about that... for a second....


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## Matt Rize (Apr 1, 2012)

Sr. Verde said:


> ice water horse...... I had to think about that... for a second....


awesome Sr V!!! Cause I'm the ice water jockey


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## malignant (Apr 1, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> For sure, if you need help with anything Malignant, let me know. I'll come up with any info I can.


all i've really got left to do is intro paragraph and faq's, should be up sometime tomorrow, i took a break to put all my 3 ft tomatoes, green chile, and bhut jolokias into raised beds. needed to look at something green and outside, 80s in the day and 60s at night, frost cover on standby if we have a random winter storm being its still fall. this is the mile high desert, you can pretty much grow year-round with a roll of frost king heavy row cover, and a little shade cloth for your greens. i've got some autoflowering plants in a mini hoop house that's ventilated and equipped with a heat lamp. just a few weeks away, 5 vertigo's, and the autos from the lucky 13 special that attitude was running. they'll be done in a month and then i'm going to stick 3 plushberries and 3 dairy queens. ill post pics and start a thread for it. everything is organic, parents neighbors cows poop, sister horses poop, coco coir, omri peat, soil secrets compost, earth magic, ffof, happy frog, and fox farm soil conditioner. its going to be insane, watering with a dramm wand pimped out w/400 pore breaker head, and siphonject feed tube, inline rv de-chlorinator, feeding compost tea to the whole garden every time i water.

sorry that got away from me, smoked a j of blue dream with a smear of solvent free soft-serve across the paper.


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## whitey78 (Apr 1, 2012)

Damn.....I didnt know we were so against cotton seed meal....in that case I'd like to take back everything I said last night, and matt I now need a new soil mix....can you whip something up for me, I live about 3 hours from NYC, how long will it take you to get here and mix it for me, bring your CC's so you can purchase it for me too cuz I'm broke.....j/k and thats the last of it you'll hear from me I swear...

But a question I do have to ask all of you more experienced guys that I cant remember coming across in the 2 or 3 times I've read this thread, how far into bloom are you guys going with compost teas? This past time I went right up to about week 7 of all 8-9 week strains but I was wondering if anyone has going any further than that and/or if you guys think I was going to long? 

Matt, if and when your ready to enlighten us with the ideals of beyond organics or whatever you should choose to delve into, I'm all ears if you feel like sharing... Until then I have your bubble making tips to keep me busy, I just started making bubble and I gotta say its not something I was born good at thats for sure, but I will not be wasting much more time with the flaming POS bags I bought other than what I have to do to keep a small stash until I save up to get one of those bubble now machines and a proper bag setup. I started reading your thread and didnt make it too far, I said F-this I'll save my material up in the freezer until I can grab one of the bubblenows.


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## blueJ (Apr 2, 2012)

Nice - a condensed version, so to speak, is what this thread needs 

"what soil mix are u using? are u running a peat based soilless mix like the mix from humboldt nutrients?"

KB, it's a work in progress and will continue to change, if not only to introduce further variety into the mix, but excellent results, as pictured previously, & vigorous growth are coming from this general mix:

2:2:1:1:1 ratio of coco_not_, any premium organic soil(less) mix (ednas organic right now), Vermiblend (compost) & EWC & perlite (rice hulls instead of perlite coming soon)

Mix 50/50 with previously used soil of the same mix, more or less.

then amended with Down to Earth: Vegan Mix, kelp meal, alfalfa meal, neem sead meal, dolomite lime, azomite, green sand, humic acid, epsom salt & mycorrizhae

Fed with bioCANNA line base nutes + protekt, fulpower, rhizotonic, hygrozyme, molasses or honey ES....think that's it lol

ACT's with Vermiblend or EWC (fungal or bacterial) & molasses with occasional additives (liquid or powder kelp, alfalfa, etc..)

And there ya go, that's what i'm workin with right now!

Sour Bubble fresh into flower, God Bud & Bugbubble


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## 1Shot1Kill (Apr 3, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Nice - a condensed version, so to speak, is what this thread needs
> 
> "what soil mix are u using? are u running a peat based soilless mix like the mix from humboldt nutrients?"
> 
> ...


Thats sweet man! The girls look great!


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## dickkhead (Apr 3, 2012)

whitey78 said:


> Damn.....I didnt know we were so against cotton seed meal....in that case I'd like to take back everything I said last night, and matt I now need a new soil mix....can you whip something up for me, I live about 3 hours from NYC, how long will it take you to get here and mix it for me, bring your CC's so you can purchase it for me too cuz I'm broke.....j/k and thats the last of it you'll hear from me I swear...
> 
> But a question I do have to ask all of you more experienced guys that I cant remember coming across in the 2 or 3 times I've read this thread, how far into bloom are you guys going with compost teas? This past time I went right up to about week 7 of all 8-9 week strains but I was wondering if anyone has going any further than that and/or if you guys think I was going to long?
> 
> Matt, if and when your ready to enlighten us with the ideals of beyond organics or whatever you should choose to delve into, I'm all ears if you feel like sharing... Until then I have your bubble making tips to keep me busy, I just started making bubble and I gotta say its not something I was born good at thats for sure, but I will not be wasting much more time with the flaming POS bags I bought other than what I have to do to keep a small stash until I save up to get one of those bubble now machines and a proper bag setup. I started reading your thread and didnt make it too far, I said F-this I'll save my material up in the freezer until I can grab one of the bubblenows.


well im not experienced with veganics at all im on my 2nd harvest and decided to run tea and nutes to the end. so far so good. my mother plant has cloudy trichs a couple ambers and i just fed her:
1/2 gallon of tea with mykos in it 
1/2 tsp molasses
1/2 tsp thrive alive
1/2 tsp humic
2 tsp cal mag
15 ml boost
20 ml flores
1/4 tsp of ej mineral matrix
and her leaves are pointing sky high and she smells amazing!! im doing this batch to see if theres a diff so far so good!!


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## dickkhead (Apr 4, 2012)

matt sorry to hear the feds raided the oaksterdam university even though you said you dont teach their any more it still must be piss you off!! hopefully this doesnt continue


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## whitey78 (Apr 4, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> well im not experienced with veganics at all im on my 2nd harvest and decided to run tea and nutes to the end. so far so good. my mother plant has cloudy trichs a couple ambers and i just fed her:
> 1/2 gallon of tea with mykos in it
> 1/2 tsp molasses
> 1/2 tsp thrive alive
> ...



I agree dude the compost teas make it, my last grow I had 2 of the same cutting plant one was bigger in a 5 gal smart pot, the other in a 3 gal smarty but the same cut. The smaller one got more compost teas and the other got more regular feedings. Obviously the bigger one yielded more, even if it was the same size it would have yielded more but the smaller one was way more colorful. Now I just have to figure out how to make them all yield like the bigger one and color up or whatever like the smaller one and I'll be good. Thanks for the response, I was just curious how long others were running them into bloom.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Apr 4, 2012)

whitey78 said:


> I agree dude the compost teas make it, my last grow I had 2 of the same cutting plant one was bigger in a 5 gal smart pot, the other in a 3 gal smarty but the same cut. The smaller one got more compost teas and the other got more regular feedings. Obviously the bigger one yielded more, even if it was the same size it would have yielded more but the smaller one was way more colorful. Now I just have to figure out how to make them all yield like the bigger one and color up or whatever like the smaller one and I'll be good. Thanks for the response, I was just curious how long others were running them into bloom.


I usually cut out my teas after their peak in flower. So usually around week 5 or approximately 40 days into flower is when I stop using my tea. It consists of black strap, EWC, b1 green, and a few others I can't think of right now. I've noticed they actually bulk up after this last feeding. Finishing with that nice, clean taste that lingers in your mouth


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## dickkhead (Apr 4, 2012)

whitey78 said:


> I agree dude the compost teas make it, my last grow I had 2 of the same cutting plant one was bigger in a 5 gal smart pot, the other in a 3 gal smarty but the same cut. The smaller one got more compost teas and the other got more regular feedings. Obviously the bigger one yielded more, even if it was the same size it would have yielded more but the smaller one was way more colorful. Now I just have to figure out how to make them all yield like the bigger one and color up or whatever like the smaller one and I'll be good. Thanks for the response, I was just curious how long others were running them into bloom.


 Word yea she seems happy so far


Bird Gymnastics said:


> I usually cut out my teas after their peak in flower. So usually around week 5 or approximately 40 days into flower is when I stop using my tea. It consists of black strap, EWC, b1 green, and a few others I can't think of right now. I've noticed they actually bulk up after this last feeding. Finishing with that nice, clean taste that lingers in your mouth


im noticing the buds still need to fatten up the triches ate getting cloudy but my buds still look like they need to fatten and still has some white hairs. Do you think the tea is holding them back from fattening up?


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## Bird Gymnastics (Apr 4, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> Word yea she seems happy so farim noticing the buds still need to fatten up the triches ate getting cloudy but my buds still look like they need to fatten and still has some white hairs. Do you think the tea is holding them back from fattening up?


Honestly, it's hard to say. Their are a lot of things that can come into play with gaining weight. I will definitely say that a little tea can't hurt if you are still a few weeks out from the end of flower. I know a lot of people feed teas all the way till harvest, but I use my teas a little different. I use them as a "booster" tea...to give my plants a little "extra" at their peak. Sadly though man, it's all trial and error. I can only attest to what I knoW works for me


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## Matt Rize (Apr 4, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> matt sorry to hear the feds raided the oaksterdam university even though you said you dont teach their any more it still must be piss you off!! hopefully this doesnt continue


Thanks man. I know Richard personally. I taught 5 different topics while working for OU. This goes to show that its all about the big names and money. They are going after Harborside and OU's money. Anyone else who is known well will be subject to the same raids. 

Please take a minute to sign the change.org petition to stop raids on mmj.
https://www.rollitup.org/california-patients/518101-change-org-petition-stop-raids.html


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## malignant (Apr 4, 2012)

cheat sheets up, sticky'd in the organic section, sorry to hear the tragic news about oaksterdam, what happened to Richard? or Ed?


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## Matt Rize (Apr 4, 2012)

malignant said:


> cheat sheets up, sticky'd in the organic section, sorry to hear the tragic news about oaksterdam, what happened to Richard? or Ed?


They took Richard down, ran up on him in bed I think. Ed is only there for special occasions. 



















( Noah Berger / Associated Press ) - U.S. marshals stand at the entrance of Oaksterdam University in Oakland, Calif., on Monday, April 2, 2012. The federal agents raided the medical marijuana training school at the heart of California&#8217;s pot legalization movement.
​




Agents carted trash bags of unknown materials out of the school as protesters gathered to condemn the action. A museum connected to the school and a nearby medical marijuana dispensary operated by Oaksterdam founder Richard Lee also were raided.
Demonstrators outside the multistory building, some openly smoking marijuana, held signs demanding an end to federal crackdowns on marijuana, which remains illegal under federal law.
Ryan Hooper, 26, of Oakland, wearing an Oaksterdam hat and sweat shirt, said he had finished taking courses at the school in February.
&#8220;This is not in the best interest of the city,&#8221; Hooper said. &#8220;If they close the dispensaries, all of this stuff is going to go back underground.&#8221;
Oaksterdam University was founded by Lee, who spent more than $1 million as the main backer of a California ballot measure defeated in 2010 that would have legalized marijuana in the state for recreational use. Lee did not immediately return a message seeking comment.
The school offers classes to would-be medical marijuana providers in fields ranging from horticulture to business to the legal ins-and-outs of running a dispensary. It does not distribute marijuana.
Arlette Lee, an IRS spokeswoman and no relation to Richard Lee, told reporters that agents were serving a federal search warrant but said she could not otherwise comment on the purpose of the raid.
&#8220;What we are doing here today is under seal,&#8221; Lee said.
Agents also raided Richard Lee&#8217;s home and briefly detained him during their search but did not arrest him, said Dale Sky Jones, Oaksterdam&#8217;s executive chancellor.
&#8220;Clearly, they&#8217;re trying to knock down one of the leaders in the cannabis reform movement,&#8221; Jones said.
No other arrests were reported, and it was unclear if the raid was prompted by a civil or criminal complaint. Jack Gillund, a spokesman for the U.S. attorney&#8217;s office, also declined comment.
The raid was the latest move by the federal government to crack down on California&#8217;s thriving medical marijuana industry. Federal prosecutors across the state joined late last year to shut down dozens of dispensaries by threatening to seize landlords&#8217; property if they did not evict marijuana retailers.
The government&#8217;s action came as a surprise to medical marijuana advocates because the city of Oakland has been somewhat of a safe haven for pot clinics. The city has long allowed four medical marijuana dispensaries to legally operate under city ordinances and recently awarded permits that would allow four more to open.
&#8220;Oakland has one of the most highly regulated systems for distributing medical marijuana in the state,&#8221; said Stephen Gutwillig, California&#8217;s director for the Drug Policy Alliance. &#8220;We think this is a campaign by the U.S. attorneys not just to limit but to kill access to medical marijuana in California.&#8221;
Others countered that pot advocates are mistaken if they believe the Obama administration wouldn&#8217;t take action.
&#8220;This is a warning signal to any city including Oakland that they should tread very carefully when sanctioning an illegal activity,&#8221; said Kevin Sabet, a former senior adviser to the president&#8217;s drug czar and an assistant professor at the University of Florida. &#8220;The brazenness of Oakland and other cities like this has actually made them a target.&#8221;
Some observers said the federal government&#8217;s decision to go after Oaksterdam shows it&#8217;s not going to back down.
&#8220;It doesn&#8217;t get much more confrontational than that,&#8221; said Alex Kreit, a law professor at the Thomas Jefferson School of Law in San Diego.








Posted at 01:23 PM ET, 04/03/2012*Oaksterdam University raided as part of DEA criminal investigation*

_By Elizabeth Flock_

Federal agents raided Oakland&#8217;s &#8220;pot university&#8221; Tuesday, as part of an ongoing investigation into the school, the Associated Press reports.






Joe Tremolada smokes marijuana as U.S. marshals raid Oaksterdam University on Monday. (Noah Berger - AP)
Local news reports suggested that the raid could be part of an ongoing federal crackdown on California&#8217;s highly profitable medical marijuana industry. (Medical marijuana was legalized in the state in 1996.)
But the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), which participated in the raid, told BlogPost that the raid was part of a criminal investigation into Oaksterdam University.
As agents from the Internal Revenue Service, the U.S. Marshals Service and DEA carried out the raid Tuesday, Oaksterdam students openly smoked marijuana, tried to block law enforcements vehicles, and greeted agents with shouts of &#8220;Shame!&#8221; and &#8220;DEA go away!&#8221; the Sacramento Bee reports.
Founded in November 2007 by medical marijuana activist Richard Lee, Oaksterdam is the most high-profile &#8212; if the not the only &#8212; university that teaches people how to grow marijuana.
Some call the school the &#8220;Harvard of Hemp&#8221; or &#8220;Princeton of Pot,&#8221; according to the Sacramento Bee.
The school&#8217;s stated mission is to &#8220;legitimize the business and work to change the law to make cannabis legal.&#8221; Lee explained his reasons for founding the school to the San Francisco Chronicle in 2008:&#8220;I've seen in California that there are not enough good people who want to work in the cannabis industry in a professional way, who want to pay taxes and obey regulations and help improve their community.&#8221;​Lee said the university would operate legally.
The DEA said Monday&#8217;s raid was part of a criminal investigation into activities on the campus. San Francisco DEA spokeswoman Joycelyn Barnes told BlogPost the raid &#8220;is par for the course of what we do.&#8221; 
Barnes said Oaksterdam could stay open, depending on how it operates going forward. She would not give specifics about what activities the school would need to change.
&#8220;Marijuana continues to be a federally controlled substance, despite the fact that California voted to make medical marijuana legal,&#8221; Barnes said. &#8220;Anything involved the criminal aspects of cultivating and distributing marijuana, we will investigate that.&#8221;

By Elizabeth Flock | 01:23 PM ET, 04/03/2012 ​


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## NightbirdX (Apr 5, 2012)

sad to hear. dont they have better things to be doing?


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## Digispliff (Apr 5, 2012)

Yes, they do. There was a school shooting about a mile or two away while the raid was happening. 7 college students dead. All while 30-40 federal agents sacked Oaksterdam. 

At least I got to scream at them how fucked up it all was. If you've never told a DEA agent exactly how you feel about them, I suggest trying it sometime. It's a liberating experience.


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## dickkhead (Apr 5, 2012)

Thanks for that BG like you said it is all trial an error hopefully she'll plump up for me.

Yea Matt the whole incident makes you realize how crooked they realy are. They dont like people making money that's what its all about!!!! Does anyone know where this is headed? Do you think mass will get through I have family there and wouldn't mind moving back east


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## whitey78 (Apr 6, 2012)

I heard about the oaksterdam but not the shooting, either way its just sad they are wasting our dollars on this bullshit. To bad we the people really dont have a say anymore....


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## HazeOneHealer (Apr 6, 2012)

Thanks for all the time you put into helping us all out here matt! So thankful! 1LUV Rize.


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## whitey78 (Apr 7, 2012)

+ rep for malignant for doing an awesome job on the cheat sheet


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 8, 2012)

Overall the raid was estimated to cost over $250k....

Hi everyone, I've been following this thread since last September..and I honestly feel like it has had a part in saving my life. I found this thread because I had just started using BioCanna, switching over from AN, and was looking for info on how to use it properly. While switching over to 100% organic plant-bases techniques in a soil-less mix I became fascinated with the process of growing these plants by being able to give it what it needed right when it needed it. This was an amazing concept for me. For the first 27 years of my life I ate like absolute garbage. I grew up on pizza, fast food, and soda pot..turning to prescription drugs as an adult for all the problems my diet had created. Thinking these pills would be a quick fix I used them for years, further destroying my stomach. Last year I lost over 60 lbs from appetite problems and even with smoking and vaping ALL DAY I couldn't eat enough to keep on wait. That's when I decided to start growing myself like my plants, by feeding myself just plants!! And only in a few short months I already feel like I'm flowering lol. My skin feels better, I smell better, I think better, I eat better....just like my plants do on PLANT-BASED ORGANICS!! 

Sorry, just wanted to give my own little testimonial since this page has inevitably just run into more hate. Matt, RESPECT MAN. I make one batch of hash every two weeks and I don't touch a computer or a camera for days lol, that shit is HARD WORK!!!!!! And btw, I would imagine the last thing a public cannabis figure in Cali should be doing is starting a journal right now anyways...fulfilling the needs of your patients is much more important work, glad that you see that even if not everyone can.

And thanks to everybody else on here that has contributed as well. Nightbird, you're a great guy. I'm glad there is a cheat sheet than I can go back through now though, lol. Thanks Malignant.

I would like to finally contribute some information to all you guys for helping me out so much over the last few months. I've been working on my own soil mix for about 6 months now and I have a really good vegan mix that I can share. I'm still always working on it, but I think it's "there" enough to share. I've never used the BTP, but I've used most of the Roots mixes, FF mixes, etc....and what I'm making myself costs less and works much better.

Soilless Mix= aprox. 30 gallons

Dolomite lime &#8211;1 1/2 cups
Neem cake &#8211; 2 cups
Karanja cake &#8211; 2 cups
Mykos 30 &#8211; 2 cups
Coffee/tea grounds &#8211; 2 cups
Epsom salt &#8211; ½ cup
Greensand &#8211; 2 cups
Banana Bark &#8211; 2 cups (at least)

¼ bale of compressed coco chips
2 bales compressed coco fibers
2 gallons peat
3 gallons EWC
2 gallons worm compost

You could replace the coco chips with perlite, if you like perlite....but I don't. The banana chips are just cooked banana peels broken up into small pieces to slow release potassium (or at least that's the idea, I haven't had to add any since I started doing this) 

And here is a link to a site that has NPK values for all kinds of stuff to make your own fertilizers  Scroll down to the bottom of the page.
http://www.thechileman.org/guide_fertilizer.php


But now I actually have a question for one of you guys that I've been wanting to ask for awhile: I'm big into worm composting now...couldn't I just keep two separate worm bins and put high P and K waste in one bin and use the other bin for high N waste...and just use the high PK compost during flowering instead of Soft Rock Phosphate? It makes sense in my head....but it seems like if it was that easy everyone would be doing it...


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## 'ome Grown (Apr 9, 2012)

+rep for going plant based for your health and your plants 

I felt really energised and full of life when I made the switch...so good on ya.

I just bought some bio vega from the LHS, using it in soil at the moment as I don't have any soil mixed up for my babies.

Your soil-less mix looks tempting...I feel like going down the hydro path now (using veganics of course).

Cheers


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 11, 2012)

'ome Grown said:


> +rep for going plant based for your health and your plants


Hey, thanks man.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 13, 2012)

OMG

I killed all my plants. 

Broke the veg tent down.

Wrote the land lord with my notice.

Because I just scored an old barn/house with a huge organic food production garden, chicken coops, and a pig run. Two creeks converge at my back deck. 

I'm taking some time off gardening to go thru to hoops of moving out. 

But I will be back... no more indoor, well maybe a mom tent, heh. Its greenhouse and outdoor time.

rize


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## dickkhead (Apr 13, 2012)

Nice keep us updated

I have a sativa in flower ( sour candy) and ever sense a few weeks ago when u fed her humboldt honey all her leaves yellowed on me I remember u guys saying its because that stuff cause nitrogen to get locked out. Should I feed her some nn nitrogen or vega she's prob 4 weeks away from finishing.


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## Dank Raptor (Apr 13, 2012)

4 weeks away you should still give her Nitrogen as needed. Alfalfa and fish hydrolysate are also good nitrogen sources.

I just found a source of info to back up the idea that too much carbon (sugar/molasses) does indeed cause nitrogen defencies. This is because microbes will draw nitrogen from the soil in order to make use of the extra carbon. This has to do with the carbon/nitrogen ratios that are involved in composting.

source:http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/fundamentals/needs_carbon_nitrogen.htm

In the soil, using organic matter with excess carbon can create problems. To complete the nitrogen cycle and continue decomposition, the microbial cells will draw any available soil nitrogen in the proper proportion to make use of available carbon. This is known as "robbing" the soil of nitrogen, and delays availability of nitrogen as a fertilizer for growing plants until some later season when it is no longer being used in the life-cycles of soil bacteria.


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## trichmasta (Apr 13, 2012)

I always use carbs(Honey ES) like an enzyme...giving the highest numbers with heaviest feedings/inoculations; so basically during transition and peak bloom! No yellowing in my ladies!!


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## dickkhead (Apr 13, 2012)

Dank Raptor said:


> 4 weeks away you should still give her Nitrogen as needed. Alfalfa and fish hydrolysate are also good nitrogen sources.
> 
> I just found a source of info to back up the idea that too much carbon (sugar/molasses) does indeed cause nitrogen defencies. This is because microbes will draw nitrogen from the soil in order to make use of the extra carbon. This has to do with the carbon/nitrogen ratios that are involved in composting.
> 
> ...



thanks for that man! I think it is do to the fact of using to much molasses should I go full strength with the nn Nitrogen or how much fish hydro would you feed her? i have a bottle or I could top dress neem cake?....


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## 'ome Grown (Apr 13, 2012)

I'm sure some alfalfa tea should suffice for your nitrogen woes...id stay away from the fish stuff as I grow veganically.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 13, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> I have a sativa in flower ( sour candy) and ever sense a few weeks ago when u fed her humboldt honey all her leaves yellowed on me I remember u guys saying its because that stuff cause nitrogen to get locked out. Should I feed her some nn nitrogen or vega she's prob 4 weeks away from finishing.


If you think your nitrogen might be locked out, adding more isn't the answer. Have you checked your PH? I would check your PH and make sure it's at least in the ball park first...if it is then you can add nitrogen, but whatever source you choose to use, just make sure you don't add too much that late into flower. Neem cake is a slow release, so I don't think it would work well that late in flower, but if you have a product like Nature's Nectar Nitrogen I would recommend using that at 1/4 strength or less.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 13, 2012)

'ome Grown said:


> I'm sure some alfalfa tea should suffice for your nitrogen woes...id stay away from the fish stuff as I grow veganically.


Just saw this, +rep much better idea...unless you already have NN Nitrogen, then use it up!


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## Dank Raptor (Apr 13, 2012)

I would probably go 4ml/gl on the NN. Depends on how big your plants are though. I like to make sure there is plenty of phosphorus and potassium so the plant doesnt get confused with a nitrogen dominant feeding.


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## blacktourmaline (Apr 13, 2012)

hells yeh MATT! thats what im talking about, good moves all around. time for some greenhouse VEGANIC STYLEY. By the way this track by MIDNITE is one of my favorites defiantly bump this to your outdoor. 

[video=youtube;p0cJaD75KYo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&amp;v=p0cJaD75KYo[/video]


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## blueJ (Apr 14, 2012)

Dickhead - I've gone through the ringer with yellowing plants by midflower, giving higher N right now will only slow the yellowing down, but it won't green up the plant, but definitely give it a shot of NN-N or vega or whatever. Key, for me, is to go heavy with N @ transition and the first couple weeks into flower, i give a shot of NN-N @ transition and they darken the fuck right up. I've also been lowering the amount of molasses, but still use it every feeding and in flower i use honey ES once a week instead of molasses. I still give vega up till like week 5 along with full flower nutes. Alfalfa will do nothing for you by mid flower, too slow to absorb, i guess a strong tea of it will make it more immediately available though. I've realized now I need to go heavy with the biocanna, every feeding all the way through flower, even in fairly heavily amended soilless mix, at least my bitches are all super hungry all the time!


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 14, 2012)

I use NN Nitrogen when I flip, usually at half strength with Indica-dom strains because I use other slow release nitrogen sources in my mix. I go full strength for Sativas because they stretch so much more for. I use Vega into the 3rd week, but I also introduce Flores the third week. I don't think I've ever used Vega after the 3rd week though. I use 2ml of Dark Agave or Molasses every feeding, and AACTs every other feeding. I add a couple tablespoons of Alfalfa to the AACT during flowering as well, and don't get any early yellowing. 

I was feeding very heavy with BioCanna last year on my White Widows, and cut back to basically just a little bit over what they recommend on the bottle for the last run...yields were lower, so I'm feeding heavy again as well. 

I just bought some of that ES honey, I've never used it before...Cosco sells 2 packs of Organic Agave for super fucking cheap so I've been using that.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 14, 2012)

blueJ said:


> View attachment 2121248View attachment 2121249View attachment 2121250


Beautiful pics man +rep. What are we looking at?


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## dickkhead (Apr 14, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> I use NN Nitrogen when I flip, usually at half strength with Indica-dom strains because I use other slow release nitrogen sources in my mix. I go full strength for Sativas because they stretch so much more for. I use Vega into the 3rd week, but I also introduce Flores the third week. I don't think I've ever used Vega after the 3rd week though. I use 2ml of Dark Agave or Molasses every feeding, and AACTs every other feeding. I add a couple tablespoons of Alfalfa to the AACT during flowering as well, and don't get any early yellowing.
> 
> I was feeding very heavy with BioCanna last year on my White Widows, and cut back to basically just a little bit over what they recommend on the bottle for the last run...yields were lower, so I'm feeding heavy again as well.
> 
> I just bought some of that ES honey, I've never used it before...Cosco sells 2 packs of Organic Agave for super fucking cheap so I've been using that.


Word! I made the mistake of transitioning to early ESP For a sativa!


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## blueJ (Apr 14, 2012)

BOG's original bubblegum strain - Bogbubble!  thanks bro, it's been a year long vegan organic adventure, and i believe i'm dialed in with what i use  , more or less, and i couldn't be happier with the results. 

She smells like grape bubblegum, love it.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Apr 14, 2012)

Here is some of my veganic flowers that im about to chop in a couple weeks...here is some "orange" crush I have been working on...let me know what you think  It's because of you man that my veganics have become so solid. Thank you for all the info



















ill try and get some better pictures. I couldn't find my camera so had to use the camera phone. Not too bad for a small cam lol


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 14, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> And here is a link to a site that has NPK values for all kinds of stuff to make your own fertilizers  Scroll down to the bottom of the page.
> http://www.thechileman.org/guide_fertilizer.php
> 
> 
> But now I actually have a question for one of you guys that I've been wanting to ask for awhile: I'm big into worm composting now...couldn't I just keep two separate worm bins and put high P and K waste in one bin and use the other bin for high N waste...and just use the high PK compost during flowering instead of Soft Rock Phosphate? It makes sense in my head....but it seems like if it was that easy everyone would be doing it...


Can anybody answer this question?...or open it up for discussion with their opinions on the idea? If nobody really knows I'm just going to set up another worm bin and use all the high PK food waste and scraps from my juicer in that bin...


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## NightbirdX (Apr 15, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> I use NN Nitrogen when I flip, usually at half strength with Indica-dom strains because I use other slow release nitrogen sources in my mix. I go full strength for Sativas because they stretch so much more for. I use Vega into the 3rd week, but I also introduce Flores the third week. I don't think I've ever used Vega after the 3rd week though. I use 2ml of Dark Agave or Molasses every feeding, and AACTs every other feeding. I add a couple tablespoons of Alfalfa to the AACT during flowering as well, and don't get any early yellowing.
> 
> I was feeding very heavy with BioCanna last year on my White Widows, and cut back to basically just a little bit over what they recommend on the bottle for the last run...yields were lower, so I'm feeding heavy again as well.
> 
> I just bought some of that ES honey, I've never used it before...Cosco sells 2 packs of Organic Agave for super fucking cheap so I've been using that.


you are just about doing the same thing that I do. I am up to a weekly feeding of 30ml of BioFlores, and a 15ml feeding of BioFlores with 5ml's of NN Nitro. At the start of week 3 I hit them with 25ml Vega, and then on the next watering, I give them 10ml of Flores. I am going to start using the NN Nitro on this light feeding also because I still have Nitrogen issues, just not as bad. I have had issues with Bubba not liking 30ml's/gal so if you are gonna try to do a high yield situation using BioCanna, be sure your strains respond well to it. My Bubba is just a slow steady feeder. It doesn't like being pushed, it just does great things on lower nute doses, and I have to water it less because it takes up less, if I water it heavy it will be soggy forever. Small consistent feedings twice a week, letting it dry thoroughly. If you bomb it and soak it, it will lock up in a heart beat, lol. My Plushberry Purp pheno, I think could probably take 50ml's/gal for the week, lol. Don't be afraid to use higher levels of nutrients. Just be smart doing it.

I have found that as I have built my soil, the nutrient levels I feed at are also on the rise. I started with straight pro-mix and was feeding at 15ml/gal 2x a week. Now I amend my soilless medium with EWC, Lime, Azomite, etc, and my nutrient levels are just about double. As long as there is a readily available buffet of micro nutrients with a light macro charge, you can use BioCanna as a soilless, even though it isn't recommended. You just have to amend the piss out of it to make up for what the BioCanna lacks. But if you have everything readily available that is lacking, and keep a good balance, your nutrient consumption will go through the roof. One 1 liter bottle doesn't last long.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 15, 2012)

demolition of the sealed room. drill + sawzall + crow bar


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## Bird Gymnastics (Apr 15, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> demolition of the sealed room. drill + sawzall + crow bar


It definitely sucks demolishing your old room. So many good memories  also you forgot... Drill + sawzall + crowbar = FUN! Can't wait to see what you do with your new room


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 15, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> I have found that as I have built my soil, the nutrient levels I feed at are also on the rise. I started with straight pro-mix and was feeding at 15ml/gal 2x a week. Now I amend my soilless medium with EWC, Lime, Azomite, etc, and my nutrient levels are just about double. As long as there is a readily available buffet of micro nutrients with a light macro charge, you can use BioCanna as a soilless, even though it isn't recommended. You just have to amend the piss out of it to make up for what the BioCanna lacks. But if you have everything readily available that is lacking, and keep a good balance, your nutrient consumption will go through the roof. One 1 liter bottle doesn't last long.


I was using 70/30 Promix/FFHF with light amendments and guanos last year when I started using plant-based nutrients. I was trying to use up the seabird guano I had left...and burnt some plants up and decided to go 100% organic plant-based. I switched over to 50/50 Roots cocomix/FFHF with vegan amendments for a couple runs and had some issues with leaf tips curling and some other things that I couldn't dial in. Now I'm using my own soilless mix and having great results with every strain I'm growing. 

*

Soilless Mix= aprox. 30 gallons

Dolomite lime &#8211;1 1/2 cups
Neem cake &#8211; 2 cups
Karanja cake &#8211; 2 cups
Mykos 30 &#8211; 2 cups
Coffee/tea grounds &#8211; 2 cups
Epsom salt &#8211; ½ cup
Greensand &#8211; 2 cups
Banana Bark &#8211; 2 cups (at least)

¼ bale of compressed coco chips
2 bales compressed coco fibers
2 gallons peat
3 gallons EWC
2 gallons worm compost

I have also found that as I built my soil my nutrient levels have been able to go up. I'm also using two types of fungi, Xtreme Mykos in the mix, and Roots Oregonism on the roots when I transplant...not sure if that's any more beneficial than using just one or the other, but I'm definitely not going to stop doing it until I find out otherwise lol.​
​

*


----------



## Wolverine97 (Apr 15, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> I was using 70/30 Promix/FFHF with light amendments and guanos last year when I started using plant-based nutrients. I was trying to use up the seabird guano I had left...and burnt some plants up and decided to go 100% organic plant-based. I switched over to 50/50 Roots cocomix/FFHF with vegan amendments for a couple runs and had some issues with leaf tips curling and some other things that I couldn't dial in. Now I'm using my own soilless mix and having great results with every strain I'm growing.
> 
> *
> 
> ...


That seems like a metric fuckton of neem cake, and karaja cake too. I'd consider backing off on those a lot, but if it aint broke...


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## dickkhead (Apr 15, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> demolition of the sealed room. drill + sawzall + crow bar


this is DRUG ABUSE! lol jk hope your outdoors/ greenhouse do as well as this room!


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## Matt Rize (Apr 15, 2012)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> It definitely sucks demolishing your old room. So many good memories  also you forgot... Drill + sawzall + crowbar = FUN! Can't wait to see what you do with your new room


I'm thinking I'll put the tents up for moms under T5, and build a giant light dep greenhouse.  some of the gear will come in handy.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 15, 2012)

So no more indoor for Matt? I wish I could just build greenhouses. Would be so much easier, lol. Ahh to wish.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 15, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> That seems like a metric fuckton of neem cake, and karaja cake too. I'd consider backing off on those a lot, but if it aint broke...


Actually I fix stuff that's not broken all the time, lol. And thanks for the input, I actually copy/pasted that from when I had typed it out for a double batch, and forgot to divide those amounts in half. I'm making a batch tomorrow and to be honest I probably would have made it just like that if you wouldn't have pointed it out to me. Which makes me an asshole for posting it twice on this site in a week....lol. So it's actually..

Soilless Mix= aprox. 30 gallons

Dolomite lime &#8211;1 cups
Neem cake &#8211; 1 cups
Karanja cake &#8211; 1 cups
Mykos &#8211; 1 cups
Coffee/tea grounds &#8211; 1 cups
Epsom salt &#8211; ¼ up
Greensand &#8211; 1 cups
Banana Bark &#8211; 2 cups (at least)

¼ bale of compressed coco chips
2 bales compressed coco fibers
2 gallons peat
3 gallons EWC
2 gallons worm compost

...any ideas about my question about the high PK worm compost man? I was hoping someone would at least have some thoughts on it before I invest..


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## 'ome Grown (Apr 15, 2012)

give it a go and let us know.

My gut feeling was that EWC and worm compost would be very similar...but if the worm compost has a high PK, then might as well give it a roll.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Apr 15, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> I'm thinking I'll put the tents up for moms under T5, and build a giant light dep greenhouse.  some of the gear will come in handy.


Sounds like a good plan to me. T5 FTW, at least for mothers  the greenhouse will be awesome. Time to step the wax game up lol


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 15, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> Actually I fix stuff that's not broken all the time, lol. And thanks for the input, I actually copy/pasted that from when I had typed it out for a double batch, and forgot to divide those amounts in half. I'm making a batch tomorrow and to be honest I probably would have made it just like that if you wouldn't have pointed it out to me. Which makes me an asshole for posting it twice on this site in a week....lol. So it's actually..
> 
> Soilless Mix= aprox. 30 gallons
> 
> ...


Sorry, I'm not too sure on high p/k castings other than adjusting the worms diet. I wouldn't worry about that, if you have a healthy soil and sufficient quantities of everything needed the microbes and root exudates will handle the rest.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 16, 2012)

My soil blend is coming along nicely Wolverine. I think I got it down to just about everything except nutrients, and I have an organic soil mix that I have been working on for veg is just about right, now I need to decide which one I want to run with, lol. Both are very nice and have their perks, just waiting to do some test results from finished product.


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## Da Almighty Jew (Apr 16, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> OMG
> 
> I killed all my plants.
> 
> ...


Will you be able to make your outdoor as good as your indoor?

I think its a myth that outdoor cant be as good as indoor, what do you think?


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## dickkhead (Apr 16, 2012)

I'm wondering the same thing? Nothing like the hps in the sky! But also nothing like an inside controlled environment!


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 16, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> My soil blend is coming along nicely Wolverine. I think I got it down to just about everything except nutrients, and I have an organic soil mix that I have been working on for veg is just about right, now I need to decide which one I want to run with, lol. Both are very nice and have their perks, just waiting to do some test results from finished product.


Are you still using pro-mix as your base? I'm real curious to know what all you're using now, as I'm still not 100% satisfied with mine. I've adjusted what I'm using quite a bit since we last talked, but the consistency isn't quite where I want it. I still get issues with gnats riding in on bags of soil too, so I'm really considering switching my base back to pro-mix.

That plushberry you posted in the other thread is pretty fucking epic looking btw... still haven't cracked mine.


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## dickkhead (Apr 16, 2012)

Fox farm is full of gnats! Just sayin....


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 16, 2012)

I know. I don't use FF unless I'm in a major pinch.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 16, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Are you still using pro-mix as your base? I'm real curious to know what all you're using now, as I'm still not 100% satisfied with mine. I've adjusted what I'm using quite a bit since we last talked, but the consistency isn't quite where I want it. I still get issues with gnats riding in on bags of soil too, so I'm really considering switching my base back to pro-mix.
> 
> That plushberry you posted in the other thread is pretty fucking epic looking btw... still haven't cracked mine.


I have a soilless which I will be using Pro-Mix as my base again. I used Humboldt Mix, and you want to talk about gnats... They brought a regiment hidden in the dirt. I won't be using any other soilless besides Pro-Mix from now on. I never had gnats with Pro-Mix. 

My Organic soil mix is HF/OF based, though I think I will be only using OF from now on. My soil mix is basically the same. I still need to go pick up some stuff, might do it tomorrow. The amendments don't change between the mixes, just the base. The HF OF blend, i can run about half my nutrient load on and they still do great. It isn't quite water only yet. But I will be adding some other amendments to it make it so to try again. I'm currently testing the Organic mix vs the soilless mix to see about the quality and yield, and how comparable. Then if I can iron out the nutrient load, I'll veg in that, flower in super soil and do a comparison to see how well they do. The testing never ends... lol. It is just hard to walk away from my soilless mix because it just keeps getting better and better. If it isn't broke, dont fix it. All I have to add is BioCanna to it and it is good. I add some Roots excelurator, humboldt honey, biobud, and bio boost, as additives. But as for adding cal mag, micro, etc. My soil has been doing really well in providing all of that. I just top dress with lime and innoculate each month and its good. 

Ya that Plushberry is really nice. I'll see about bringing a sample.  I did a test smoke on it yesterday and it was POTENT. The flavor isn't quite as good, but man, letting it go that extra week, really made it stoney. A half a j, put me in a chair for an hour. Very creative and thought stimulating, but I didn't want to move, lol. I will prob only take it to 60-63 days from here on out though as I love the smell and flavor of it, and want to preserve that a bit more.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 16, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> I have a soilless which I will be using Pro-Mix as my base again. I used Humboldt Mix, and you want to talk about gnats... They brought a regiment hidden in the dirt. I won't be using any other soilless besides Pro-Mix from now on. I never had gnats with Pro-Mix.
> 
> My Organic soil mix is HF/OF based, though I think I will be only using OF from now on. My soil mix is basically the same. I still need to go pick up some stuff, might do it tomorrow. The amendments don't change between the mixes, just the base. The HF OF blend, i can run about half my nutrient load on and they still do great. It isn't quite water only yet. But I will be adding some other amendments to it make it so to try again. I'm currently testing the Organic mix vs the soilless mix to see about the quality and yield, and how comparable. Then if I can iron out the nutrient load, I'll veg in that, flower in super soil and do a comparison to see how well they do. The testing never ends... lol. It is just hard to walk away from my soilless mix because it just keeps getting better and better. If it isn't broke, dont fix it. All I have to add is BioCanna to it and it is good. I add some Roots excelurator, humboldt honey, biobud, and bio boost, as additives. But as for adding cal mag, micro, etc. My soil has been doing really well in providing all of that. I just top dress with lime and innoculate each month and its good.
> 
> Ya that Plushberry is really nice. I'll see about bringing a sample.  I did a test smoke on it yesterday and it was POTENT. The flavor isn't quite as good, but man, letting it go that extra week, really made it stoney. A half a j, put me in a chair for an hour. Very creative and thought stimulating, but I didn't want to move, lol. I will prob only take it to 60-63 days from here on out though as I love the smell and flavor of it, and want to preserve that a bit more.


Looking forward to it birdman...


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 16, 2012)

View attachment 2755.jpgHere's a pic of my Vegan White Widows about 3 weeks into flower. Finally finished the tents so I can start paying more attention to the plants again...can't believe how much brighter it is over the plants in there now though! Reflecting all that light back makes a HUGE difference.

How long do you guys that are using Humboldt Natural Bloom for P use it in flower for?? I've been using it for about 4 weeks, I just wanted to make sure it wouldn't be beneficial for me to use it longer.


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## trichmasta (Apr 16, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> View attachment 2125107Here's a pic of my Vegan White Widows about 3 weeks into flower. Finally finished the tents so I can start paying more attention to the plants again...can't believe how much brighter it is over the plants in there now though! Reflecting all that light back makes a HUGE difference.
> 
> How long do you guys that are using Humboldt Natural Bloom for P use it in flower for?? I've been using it for about 4 weeks, I just wanted to make sure it wouldn't be beneficial for me to use it longer.


Looking good witch doctor! I use and love the Humboldt bloom as a flower boost teamed with Technaflora Soluble Seaweed. I start raising P and K above normal regimen week 4. I start with 5 ml/gal, increasing to 10. I like to keep that up till week 6. Sativa's a week longer

So yes keep rocking it!


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 16, 2012)

Thanks! I start with HN Bloom at the end of my second week and then usually till the end of the fourth...maybe I'll try going an extra week and see how they like it. I start off at 5 and work up to 10-15 as well. I used to use the Technaflora Soluble Seaweed, but now my cooked/ground banana peels cover me there. I've been using what I have up on transplants though.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 16, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Sorry, I'm not too sure on high p/k castings other than adjusting the worms diet. I wouldn't worry about that, if you have a healthy soil and sufficient quantities of everything needed the microbes and root exudates will handle the rest.


Well what I'm talking about trying to do is use the compost as my PK source during flowering so that I can stop or use significantly less Rock Phosphate. I've got a list of NPK values for hundreds of different fruit and vegetable peel ashes, so I'm hoping that if I use only food waste that has high PK values in the worm compost, that after they break it down it will still retain those high values and can just be used in the soil, or even used as a tea. Since nobody seems to have any idea and I can't find any actual information on doing this, I'm going to give it a shot now I guess. It'll be fun.



'ome Grown said:


> give it a go and let us know.
> 
> My gut feeling was that EWC and worm compost would be very similar...but if the worm compost has a high PK, then might as well give it a roll.


Thanks man, I'm gonna do it. I'll order another worm setup and a couple lbs of worms tomorrow. As soon as it comes I'll get a batch of compost working and start a journal with some fresh cuttings. As long as I can finish the Blue Dreams I've got going right now without getting mites (which I've been repeatedly warned about with this strain) I'm gonna do those again I think, so by the time they are ready to flower the compost will be ready to use and I'll do a side by side.


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## blueJ (Apr 17, 2012)

would love to see that side by side witchdoctor - makes sense in theory, but like you said no backup info to be found!

What are you guys averaging with veganics? I had issues and was real sad to see just 1oz to 2oz in 5gal buckets, now i got some weight with some real happy ladies and pullin down the first bogbubbles this week, lookin' to be about 3oz each for sure, i'd be real happy with 4oz, ripe @ 46 days, and a couple of God buds that pushed 6feet tall i think will do 5oz easy, they'll go another couple weeks to like 65 days i'm sure.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 17, 2012)

blueJ said:


> would love to see that side by side witchdoctor - makes sense in theory, but like you said no backup info to be found!
> 
> What are you guys averaging with veganics? I had issues and was real sad to see just 1oz to 2oz in 5gal buckets, now i got some weight with some real happy ladies and pullin down the first bogbubbles this week, lookin' to be about 3oz each for sure, i'd be real happy with 4oz, ripe @ 46 days, and a couple of God buds that pushed 6feet tall i think will do 5oz easy, they'll go another couple weeks to like 65 days i'm sure.


Yea I promise I'll do a side by side, I do at least one side by side every couple months just for fun, or to try to learn or disprove something anyways. I did a side by side in January with Bio Canna against General Organics...but the bottom leaves got some mites on the GO's so I didn't think the variable would be fair. I'm gonna that one again too, just not until I finish these tents, it's hard to pay attention to the plants right now.

I just got 34 oz on my White Widows and Maui with 2400 watts. I'm hoping to sneak out a few more oz this time since I built a tent around them to keep more light in. I'm gonna take 600 watts out next time though and add a light mover. It get's up to 82 in there midday now that it's hotter outside, and I think I can still pull about the same weight with one less light.


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## blueJ (Apr 17, 2012)

That's one i'm interested in GO vs. bioCanna, now that i'm feeding super heavy, lol, with the biocanna a liter sure does go fast. I run the same witchdoctor, 4X600w for flower but two are in a tent and the other two in the open, I need to hang my white-poly walls as I can see how much brighter it is in the tent then the ones in the open with light just getting wasted lol.

Oh, i know I've mentioned APTUS before, i now use the Fasilitator @ 3ml/5gal instead of protekt @ 5ml/5gal, it's the same silica supplement but with molybdenum & i think another micronute added in. Good shit, they also have a "humiblast" product coming out that i got a 60ml sample of, it's super black liquid and a single drop changes the color of fresh water quite a bit, i've been using @ 3ml/5gal instead of fulpower @ 15ml/5gal - actually i like to switch it up and go back and forth especially since i just got a gallon of fulpower!


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 17, 2012)

I need to re-read my posts before I reply lol, I always check for spelling, but not for math! I meant to say 1800 watts. I run 3 600 watt lights over 12 plants. I grow them about 3 ft tall and lollypop. I use 18 inch tomato cages around them, not the metal kind but the thinner flexible green ones, can't remember the brand name. 

Dang, I just bought a new gallon of Protekt Silica yesterday. That's shit'll last me a year though.

The one thing I noticed with Bio Canna vs GO right away was that it wasn't more expensive to use Bio Vega during veg, as I didn't have to use quite as much as the GO grow. And I was using the same amount of Flores and GO bloom during flowering and buds were all about the same size on all plants in the 5th week on Chemdawgs, although after the 5th week I just continued using Flores on all of them after I took care of the few mites. Next time I run to the hydro store for anything I'll grab some GO bloom and get ready to start another one, but not with the veg nutes, just Flores and GO bloom. I'll still use Bio Canna anyways, I don't mind paying a little more. Especially for the certification, I like them, I don't care what anybody says lol.


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## blueJ (Apr 17, 2012)

Oh okay, good shit, yeah that's a better ratio 34oz to 1800w instead of 2400w  , still room for growth though, that's why we're here! My first goal is 20oz from each 600w, i can get 12 to 15 now, i think with the right genetics, i'm not necessarily working with huge yielders, but my sour bubble is right up there with the best, AAA.

Okay i'm kind of rambling today, but speaking of lollipopping, have you or anyone noticed bananas popping up where you lollipopped? Ever since i started pulling all the lower growth shoots, but leaving the main fan leaves, i get random male flowers popping out way down there where a new growth shoot used to be, bugs the hell out of me. I use to hardly trim anything and never got this....

My vega does always last longer. If the flores lasts one grow, the vega probably goes 1.5 grows.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 17, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Okay i'm kind of rambling today, but speaking of lollipopping, have you or anyone noticed bananas popping up where you lollipopped? Ever since i started pulling all the lower growth shoots, but leaving the main fan leaves, i get random male flowers popping out way down there where a new growth shoot used to be, bugs the hell out of me. I use to hardly trim anything and never got this....


That's never happened to me, but I did have a new situation with some strawberry cough and OG kush cuttings my buddy got me from someone I didn't know. He swore they weren't from feminized seed when I got them...but his story changed after I told him that that Strawberry Coughs started flowering when my veg light went off for 15 minutes, and the OGs had little white pistils coming out wherever I topped them (in veg). I just flipped them last week so I'll check the spots where I lollipopped in a few days to make sure I don't have any male flowers down there. 

Is it possible that yours are feminized as well, or did you grow from regular seeds? I know a lot of people feel that plants from feminized seeds don't stress any easier than regular seeds, but I'm not one of those people, lol. And now I guess I have a reason as well..

Also, I take the bottom fan leaves too, any that are close enough to get bumped by my watering wand that is. And I use a scalpel and cut close. I leave as many fan leaves as I can, but I figure if I'm gonna bump anything when I'm watering over a 8-10 week period, it's better for the plant to just cut it off early. Plus my bottom fan leaves always got a lot of the overspray.


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## blueJ (Apr 17, 2012)

Regular seeds for sure, and i'm the same way, no fem seeds for me either. It's certainly not a buku amount of nanners, just a few here and there and they don't seem to come back, but i do notice some way down low buds gets clusters of seeds here and there, hash buds anyways so no biggy, certainly annoying though.

Here's my fatty indica God Bud, short n stout n solid bud and actually the 1st pic is the sativa God Bud, long fat buds and extra frosty


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 17, 2012)

Pics look beautiful. I can't wait to have to see some new strains flowering. I've been looking at the same strains since last year, finally just flipped a few new ones and took a bunch of cuttings from them.


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## dickkhead (Apr 18, 2012)

why would feminised seeds be prone to hermie over reg seeds?


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## dickkhead (Apr 18, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> That's never happened to me, but I did have a new situation with some strawberry cough and OG kush cuttings my buddy got me from someone I didn't know. He swore they weren't from feminized seed when I got them...but his story changed after I told him that that Strawberry Coughs started flowering when my veg light went off for 15 minutes, and the OGs had little white pistils coming out wherever I topped them (in veg). I just flipped them last week so I'll check the spots where I lollipopped in a few days to make sure I don't have any male flowers down there.
> 
> Is it possible that yours are feminized as well, or did you grow from regular seeds? I know a lot of people feel that plants from feminized seeds don't stress any easier than regular seeds, but I'm not one of those people, lol. And now I guess I have a reason as well..
> 
> Also, I take the bottom fan leaves too, any that are close enough to get bumped by my watering wand that is. And I use a scalpel and cut close. I leave as many fan leaves as I can, but I figure if I'm gonna bump anything when I'm watering over a 8-10 week period, it's better for the plant to just cut it off early. Plus my bottom fan leaves always got a lot of the overspray.


if there shooting out white hairs doesnt it mean its female. my 2nd generation clones of female moms and originaly from femenised seeds are all doing the same thing.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 18, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> why would feminised seeds be prone to hermie over reg seeds?


Because of the very nature of how they're made. You have to induce a female plant to sprout male flowers, so naturally those which are the easiest to coax into going herm will pass on that trait far more often than is usual.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 18, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> why would feminised seeds be prone to hermie over reg seeds?





dickkhead said:


> if there shooting out white hairs doesnt it mean its female. my 2nd generation clones of female moms and originaly from femenised seeds are all doing the same thing.


Yea if they are shooting out white pistils it means that they are female, however it shouldn't happen in veg.

Feminized seeds are produced by turning a female plant into a hermaphrodite. The resulting seeds are almost always female. Supposedly the process they use to do this doesn't weaken the strain, but by definition these seeds are kind of a freak of nature. There's pros and cons I guess. The way I look at it is if the plant has already been used as a medicine for at least 6000 years, just think about what the next 20 years of breeding with feminized seeds could do to strains long term. So I just don't mess with them. 

Seems pointless to clone from feminized anyways, all the seeds are female. I'd rather just just pop regular seeds and pull out the males. I don't even keep mother plants, I just keep the nicest cuttings out of every batch and veg it for 6 weeks and do it all over again. Beats waiting for seeds in the mail all the time in my opinion.


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## dickkhead (Apr 19, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Because of the very nature of how they're made. You have to induce a female plant to sprout male flowers, so naturally those which are the easiest to coax into going herm will pass on that trait far more often than is usual.


O that's good to know glad I have some of subs gear going! 


+ WitchDoctor + said:


> Yea if they are shooting out white pistils it means that they are female, however it shouldn't happen in veg.
> 
> Feminized seeds are produced by turning a female plant into a hermaphrodite. The resulting seeds are almost always female. Supposedly the process they use to do this doesn't weaken the strain, but by definition these seeds are kind of a freak of nature. There's pros and cons I guess. The way I look at it is if the plant has already been used as a medicine for at least 6000 years, just think about what the next 20 years of breeding with feminized seeds could do to strains long term. So I just don't mess with them.
> 
> Seems pointless to clone from feminized anyways, all the seeds are female. I'd rather just just pop regular seeds and pull out the males. I don't even keep mother plants, I just keep the nicest cuttings out of every batch and veg it for 6 weeks and do it all over again. Beats waiting for seeds in the mail all the time in my opinion.


I clone to keep the female going so I don't have to order more seeds. But I think I'm Gna order reg from now on select the phenos and clone off of them!


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 19, 2012)

That's what's up. Yea I just got 3 different phenos from 3 out of 5 Wonder Womans that I popped that were female. I really like that I can not only decide on the strains that I like, but sometimes even decide on the phenos. I don't have that option if I don't grow from seed myself, that's the biggest reason for me. The only way I ever take a clone from someone to start a mother with is if I really need the strain and I haven't been able to order the seeds, or don't have time to wait from seed.


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## dickkhead (Apr 19, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> That's what's up. Yea I just got 3 different phenos from 3 out of 5 Wonder Womans that I popped that were female. I really like that I can not only decide on the strains that I like, but sometimes even decide on the phenos. I don't have that option if I don't grow from seed myself, that's the biggest reason for me. The only way I ever take a clone from someone to start a mother with is if I really need the strain and I haven't been able to order the seeds, or don't have time to wait from seed.


Yea I do the same but only one person ik grows so my strains are limited I just took cheese off of him and also just ordered sour deisel feminised from reserv should have ordered regulars DOH!


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## dickkhead (Apr 19, 2012)

I noticed a banana on a Pinapple express ( feminised seeds) its between 8-10 weeks old. Is that a sign it's been flowering to long? I'm waiting for the trichs to go opaque or a few ambers.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 19, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> I noticed a banana on a Pinapple express ( feminised seeds) its between 8-10 weeks old. Is that a sign it's been flowering to long? I'm waiting for the trichs to go opaque or a few ambers.


It's a sign that the genetics are suspect.


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## whitey78 (Apr 19, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> I noticed a banana on a Pinapple express ( feminised seeds) its between 8-10 weeks old. Is that a sign it's been flowering to long? I'm waiting for the trichs to go opaque or a few ambers.



You are in the "zone" or nearing the end of it I imagine.


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## dickkhead (Apr 19, 2012)

whitey78 said:


> You are in the "zone" or nearing the end of it I imagine.


The zone meaning when there at there peak to harvest! And will start degrading? When do you guys pull em when they show a few ambers or several?


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## whitey78 (Apr 19, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> It's a sign that the genetics are suspect.



That late into bloom?


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## whitey78 (Apr 19, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> The zone meaning when there at there peak to harvest! And will start degrading? When do you guys pull em when they show a few ambers or several?



Exactly, just watch closely thats all. I let myself get tricked every time I harvest by random ambers here and there, just be sure the trichs are full is the important thing, but if you're getting end of life nanners I'd be really close and ready with the scissors. I've been trying to catch them when they are going from clear to cloudy with some just turning amber, I have yet to achieve this perfectly but thats what I'm trying for myself.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 19, 2012)

I just had some sent to a lab and their comments were: Some white and mostly cloudy, even less amber... She said that's what they are looking for. I've been using a crappy little hand held microscope for like 12 bucks at the hydro store, it works good enough. But I'm gonna buy the USB one soon, and just have my laptop next to the plants.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 19, 2012)

whitey78 said:


> That late into bloom?


In my opinion, yes, but that's just like, my opinion, man.


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## ozric420 (Apr 19, 2012)

cool info, thanks


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## dickkhead (Apr 19, 2012)

whitey78 said:


> Exactly, just watch closely thats all. I let myself get tricked every time I harvest by random ambers here and there, just be sure the trichs are full is the important thing, but if you're getting end of life nanners I'd be really close and ready with the scissors. I've been trying to catch them when they are going from clear to cloudy with some just turning amber, I have yet to achieve this perfectly but thats what I'm trying for myself.


this is my first round! And from my research white r cloudy is when thc is at it peak and as it ambers it's converting the thc to cbd making it more of a body stone then a head high. By trichs being full you mean they have heads right? Some people just go by the hairs an say when there brown cut them down. Thank you for all your input!!


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 19, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> this is my first round! And from my research white r cloudy is when thc is at it peak and as it ambers it's converting the thc to cbd making it more of a body stone then a head high.


Close..but the THC actually degrades into CNB, not CBD. 
If it degraded into CBD we'd probably be flowering our plants for much MUCH longer...and I'm pretty sure we would live forever from smoking them. 




dickkhead said:


> Some people just go by the hairs an say when there brown cut them down. Thank you for all your input!!


I guess that works if your strain has brown hairs and they happen to all turn brown at the same time your trichomes have turned from white to cloudy..but I'd stick with a cheap microscope instead.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 19, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> So no more indoor for Matt? I wish I could just build greenhouses. Would be so much easier, lol. Ahh to wish.


thats the plan. except moms and maybe babies inside.


Da Almighty Jew said:


> Will you be able to make your outdoor as good as your indoor?
> 
> I think its a myth that outdoor cant be as good as indoor, what do you think?


hope so. i see some outdoor from good organic growers here that rivals or beats any indoor. 
the outdoor extracts are also phenomenal.


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## dickkhead (Apr 19, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> Close..but the THC actually degrades into CNB, not CBD.
> If it degraded into CBD we'd probably be flowering our plants for much MUCH longer...and I'm pretty sure we would live forever from smoking them.
> 
> 
> ...


Yea in def sticking to the Microscope and will be chopping soon!


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## dickkhead (Apr 19, 2012)

You guys might know this I started a thread but no responses! 
Im mixing up subs super soil and ordered tm7 Humic acid and realized its only 52% which is still high compared to humboldts .2% garbage! But how much should I add to the 6 bags of roots 2 bags of bio bizz light, 50 lb of wc and all the other goodys...


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 19, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> You guys might know this I started a thread but no responses!
> Im mixing up subs super soil and ordered tm7 Humic acid and realized its only 52% which is still high compared to humboldts .2% garbage! But how much should I add to the 6 bags of roots 2 bags of bio bizz light, 50 lb of wc and all the other goodys...


I thought the amount to use was listed in his recipe? Either way, I wouldn't put it in the soil mix. You totally can if you want to, but wouldn't you rather know when you plants are getting it, and how much they're getting? If you mix it into the soil, the best you can do is come up with an educated guess as to how much to use, rather than have the ability to read your plants to know when to use it. Unless I'm wrong, it's not actually any more beneficial to mix it into the soil first, so I add it to the reservoir with the rest of my nutrients.

What roots soil are you using, and do you like it? I tried using 50/50 roots coco mix and happy frog for a few runs and was dissapointed...leaf tips were always curled...but the artwork on the bags has been looking much flashier...


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## NightbirdX (Apr 20, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> You guys might know this I started a thread but no responses!
> Im mixing up subs super soil and ordered tm7 Humic acid and realized its only 52% which is still high compared to humboldts .2% garbage! But how much should I add to the 6 bags of roots 2 bags of bio bizz light, 50 lb of wc and all the other goodys...


Mix it into water and add in. It is still a bit grainy, so make sure you are keeping it in suspension when pouring it. I do 1/2tsp/gal of h2o. I add that, 5ml Honey ES, and h2o when I let my soil cook. I wasn't sure what to add when it came to mixing soil because it is kinda cloudy. So i ended up just doing it like i did when I added it to my plants. 



+ WitchDoctor + said:


> I thought the amount to use was listed in his recipe? Either way, I wouldn't put it in the soil mix. You totally can if you want to, but wouldn't you rather know when you plants are getting it, and how much they're getting? If you mix it into the soil, the best you can do is come up with an educated guess as to how much to use, rather than have the ability to read your plants to know when to use it. Unless I'm wrong, it's not actually any more beneficial to mix it into the soil first, so I add it to the reservoir with the rest of my nutrients.
> 
> What roots soil are you using, and do you like it? I tried using 50/50 roots coco mix and happy frog for a few runs and was dissapointed...leaf tips were always curled...but the artwork on the bags has been looking much flashier...


I have heard that it is beneficial to use at all stages. The plants like the humic, and it acts like a compost activator when letting soil cook

And unfortunately, flashy bags don't really grow nice plants, lol. I use HF and OF mix with several amendments. If you are looking to do a water only mix, you will have to add some amendments to it still. Be sure to add lime, oyster shell, or gypsum to the mix to keep pH in check and add a cal source, cal and mag with the lime. I hear the pH on HF can be wonky at times. The lime will help smooth this out.


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## Kalyx (Apr 20, 2012)

In winter I grew all my meds in 15 gallon root pots with Roots 707 mix. The 707 was great, all strains yielded well and had great flavor profiles. Nutes I used this round were Roots Organics full line pretty much as directed on the feeding schedules. The 707 mix is for larger containers; less aggregrate = more goodies and less watering chore for me. I watered every 4-5 days alternating nute and plain water. The plant on the left is OG kush the right is 'cherry'. Detail is the OG which I LOVED. .

Next round also in Roots 707 watered every 4-5 days. Both plants are Subs Agent Orange. Left plant was fed GO full line and yielded 130 grams of high quality. Right plant was fed ONLY (~24 hour brewed) compost Tea's based on Vital Earth's chart every other watering(just not using all THEIR products)(yes, i did use that much guano and it did not burn my plant, it loved it actually, I know its not vegan but it was a big learning experience on the power of AACTs for me) and she yielded 138 grams of higher quality, much more complex flavor profile and denser, stickier nugs! AACT for the win!!! The AACT plant didn't look bigger at all but weighed in more, and sure was prettier!

Agent Pics: 1)Both plants under 1000w 2)Detail comparison (GO left, AACT right) 3)GO detail 4)AACT detail 5)AACT detail @8wks 6)AACT detail on trim table

DAMN pics took awhile to load. Thanks Matt for teaching me about dabbing to fill those little wait times in life/growing/hashing! Kudos and as smooth a move to you as possible. If I was in CA id show up in my truck to help the one who's helped us all! 
PS I grew these babies before I found your knowledge and its helped me realize how much more there is to learn no matter where I think I'm at

PSS here is a mix that should work great WitchDoctor. Its similar to what your used to and actually what I vegged the plants in the pics in before the final transplant into Roots 707.

10 scoop mix (any volume):

5 scoops FFHF (happy frog)
2 scoops chunky perlite
2 scoops coco coir
1 scoop EWC

BAM. simple. easily obtained. this is my fall back mix! Happy spring planting everyone...


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## dickkhead (Apr 20, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> I thought the amount to use was listed in his recipe? Either way, I wouldn't put it in the soil mix. You totally can if you want to, but wouldn't you rather know when you plants are getting it, and how much they're getting? If you mix it into the soil, the best you can do is come up with an educated guess as to how much to use, rather than have the ability to read your plants to know when to use it. Unless I'm wrong, it's not actually any more beneficial to mix it into the soil first, so I add it to the reservoir with the rest of my nutrients.
> 
> What roots soil are you using, and do you like it? I tried using 50/50 roots coco mix and happy frog for a few runs and was dissapointed...leaf tips were always curled...but the artwork on the bags has been looking much flashier...


He says 2 TBL to a full batch of ss the reg roots not the 707. Have you tries his ss recipe and let it sit for 30 days the buds look amazing and everyone I ask favors this method so I'm Gna give it a go


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## dickkhead (Apr 20, 2012)

Thanks night bird I think I'm Gna try n sprinkle it but my only concern was the fact it's only 52%


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 20, 2012)

dickkhead said:


> Thanks night bird I think I'm Gna try n sprinkle it but my only concern was the fact it's only 52%


I'd stick with watering it in, man. You'll have a hard time getting even distribution through the medium mixing in a tiny quantity of powder like that...


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## dickkhead (Apr 20, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> I'd stick with watering it in, man. You'll have a hard time getting even distribution through the medium mixing in a tiny quantity of powder like that...


Ik after reading the idea I thought about that the fact it would distribute better! So that's what I'm Gna do 

Happy 420 folks


----------



## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 20, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> I have heard that it is beneficial to use at all stages. The plants like the humic, and it acts like a compost activator when letting soil cook
> 
> And unfortunately, flashy bags don't really grow nice plants, lol. I use HF and OF mix with several amendments. If you are looking to do a water only mix, you will have to add some amendments to it still. Be sure to add lime, oyster shell, or gypsum to the mix to keep pH in check and add a cal source, cal and mag with the lime. I hear the pH on HF can be wonky at times. The lime will help smooth this out.


Thanks man. I use it in all stages, I've just never heard anything beneficial about mixing it into the soil but the what thing I CAN prove is that there is no way to guarantee that it's evenly distributed in the soil...not that anything else in my mix is guaranteed to be evenly distributed, but something that small....not me. Back when I used to use sea bird guana I burned the hell outta a couple plants that way. 

But I do let my soil cook, so I'll look into adding some...maybe Bioag's liquid formula to the water before I break up my coco bales and soak them.

I actually have a really good soil mix now and I don't buy any of the bagged stuff any more, not even good ol' happy frog with it's wonky pH lol. Unless I need something quick to plant some clones in and don't have anything mixed up, which is why I was wondering about the Roots. I guess I just didn't have any luck with the Coco mix, but all of those mixes have stuff in them I don't want in my mix anyways....



Kalyx said:


> PSS here is a mix that should work great WitchDoctor. Its similar to what your used to and actually what I vegged the plants in the pics in before the final transplant into Roots 707.
> 
> 10 scoop mix (any volume):
> 
> ...


Thanks Kalyx, and those pictures look wonderful thanks for posting them! Now I'm hungry, you're certainly doing that 707 mix justice!

Your fallback mix is similar to mine except I don't like perlite...I've been using about 5% coco chips instead though in my mixes and it seems to be doing the job.



dickkhead said:


> Ik after reading the idea I thought about that the fact it would distribute better! So that's what I'm Gna do
> 
> Happy 420 folks


Glad you got it figured out man. Happy 420!


----------



## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 20, 2012)

Ahhh 420...I missed the fuckin Hash Bash!


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## dickkhead (Apr 20, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> In winter I grew all my meds in 15 gallon root pots with Roots 707 mix. The 707 was great, all strains yielded well and had great flavor profiles. Nutes I used this round were Roots Organics full line pretty much as directed on the feeding schedules. The 707 mix is for larger containers; less aggregrate = more goodies and less watering chore for me. I watered every 4-5 days alternating nute and plain water. The plant on the left is OG kush the right is 'cherry'. Detail is the OG which I LOVED. .View attachment 2129886View attachment 2129892View attachment 2129893
> 
> Next round also in Roots 707 watered every 4-5 days. Both plants are Subs Agent Orange. Left plant was fed GO full line and yielded 130 grams of high quality. Right plant was fed ONLY (~24 hour brewed) compost Tea's based on Vital Earth's chart every other watering(just not using all THEIR products)(yes, i did use that much guano and it did not burn my plant, it loved it actually, I know its not vegan but it was a big learning experience on the power of AACTs for me) and she yielded 138 grams of higher quality, much more complex flavor profile and denser, stickier nugs! AACT for the win!!! The AACT plant didn't look bigger at all but weighed in more, and sure was prettier!
> View attachment 2129918View attachment 2129920View attachment 2129922View attachment 2129923View attachment 2129924View attachment 2129925
> ...


those plants look awesome!! and your veg mix is similiar to what i ran on asingle clone cutting and threw right into flower in a 1 gallon pot it was 
ff hf 1/2 container
1 cup ewc
tbl neem cake
rest of container pro mix 
and the single cola is as fat as my high pressure aero girls! 

and I fed her acct teas along with bio canna


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## drinfern (Apr 22, 2012)

Has anyone attempted to make a veganic super soil? would this be feasable?


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 22, 2012)

drinfern said:


> Has anyone attempted to make a veganic super soil? would this be feasable?


Yes! Completely possible. Easier for outdoor than indoor though. I'm working towards one, as well as others on here. We all take different directions though it seems. I'm working on a high PK compost so that hopefully I don't have to use liquid rock phosphate any more for P. I get all my K and most of my N in my mix right now, although I still supplement with a liquid N product when I need it. Other people are using slow release rock phosphate as well. 

I'll probably still use small amounts of Bio Canna or another base nutrient either way, but right now I'm doing teas every other feeding.


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## dickkhead (Apr 22, 2012)

drinfern said:


> Has anyone attempted to make a veganic super soil? would this be feasable?


yea a side by side would be interesting. sub is going to be selling his soon. Matt should throw a bag of veganic SS on the market. all though seems as if hes over it and onto other things.....


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 22, 2012)

Sub's gonna be selling his soil?? Good for him, that's awesome.


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## durbanmistyman (Apr 22, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> Sub's gonna be selling his soil?? Good for him, that's awesome.


Where did you hear this? I haven't heard about it on the weed nerd.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 23, 2012)

Check his section its in testing now it seems.


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## dickkhead (Apr 23, 2012)

durbanmistyman said:


> Where did you hear this? I haven't heard about it on the weed nerd.


yea its in his section like NB said


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## blueJ (Apr 23, 2012)

In my (re)search for a vegan "super soil" i'm just finding how hungry these bitches can really be! I get funky growth if i put seedlings or not too well rooted clones into the mix too soon so i know it's pretty well amended, but i find i start feeding regularly/heavy pretty quick in veg even. Everything i feed is in the form of an act now, even between biocanna feedings they get a light compost tea at least and in flower it's a heavy ewc/bio canna tea EVERY feeding all the way through! Happy as fuck plants though, never had such consistent lush bushes with their fingers pointing strong to the sky until TEAS became the regular thing.


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## blueJ (Apr 23, 2012)

Also i'm starting to use a lot less molasses because i feel the biocanna being in the teas serves the same purpose? So i'm maxing out at 5ml/gal or even less, and i'll be alternating each feeding molasses then agave then molasses etc etc


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## NightbirdX (Apr 23, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Also i'm starting to use a lot less molasses because i feel the biocanna being in the teas serves the same purpose? So i'm maxing out at 5ml/gal or even less, and i'll be alternating each feeding molasses then agave then molasses etc etc


This is how I feel. I normally give 2.5ml 2x a week. 5ml on inoculation days. 

I am finding that my amended soil really helps ramp up the nutrient intake. I have been giving 25-30ml/gal once a week, and then as flowering ramps up I give another 10-20ml on the next day during weeks 3-6. It still isn't enough IMO, lol I just keep going up and up and they keep wanting more and more. They look great. Don't be afraid to bump up the nutrient intake. The only strain that doesn't like 30ml/gal is my Bubba strain. 30mls is right at the point where it starts to burn the tips a bit. Everything else loves it. As long as you have a balanced diet for it to pull all the micros and such, it will suck it all up.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 23, 2012)

I give 2.5 ml per gallon as well, every water. And I switch between Agave, Molasses, and Humboldt Honey....just because I have all three and I figured I'd try it. 

I think I need to up my nutrients as well.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 24, 2012)

Its taking all the nutes, and still is fading a bit earlier that I prefer, lol. I am going to be upping the NN Nitrogen to 7.5ml/gal in my next runs if it keeps trying to persist. I think I am going to try the Roots Organic Nitrogen supplement next time see if that gives me what I need. NN Nitro really doesn't seem to do that well. 

I have been trying to stay away from any non veganic sources in my current set up. I have used Budswell in the past. But I just don't know if I am going to be able to do it any longer. I am slamming them with BioFlores from weeks 3-6, and they still look like they want more. I keep getting these funky dark dark green leaves, a bit like the beginnings of phos def. And they are starting to show the slightest sign of burning. I gave them 30ml/gal Flores on the first watering and on the next they got 10ml flores, 5ml NN nitro. It isn't as if they look bad, they actually look great. I just think they need a bit more phos in their diet. I am thinking of either adding Budswel at 5ml of the light feed days, from weeks 4-6, but the thing that gets me is that I am already adding NN Nitro which is 5-0-0, then I am going to add in some Budswel yellow which is 0-7-0, and still give it 10-20ml of Flores. Maybe I just need to do a 25-30ml feeding and follow it with a 25ml feeding during the bulking period. Either that or maybe just top dress with some dry Budswel at the onset of flowering and then again a month in. 

I have heard of people using Humboldt Natural Bloom as a bloom booster. Anyone have any experience with this? I was thinking maybe of adding some of this on the watering day earlier in the bloom phase until I reach full swing with Flores. How is this used? Would 5ml/gal 1x a week and adjust from there, be about right?


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## Dank Raptor (Apr 24, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> I have heard of people using Humboldt Natural Bloom as a bloom booster. Anyone have any experience with this? I was thinking maybe of adding some of this on the watering day earlier in the bloom phase until I reach full swing with Flores. How is this used? Would 5ml/gal 1x a week and adjust from there, be about right?


Good to get the Bloom into your soil fairly soon. I usually do it after the first week of flower because soft rock phosphate takes a while to be broken down by microbes. I start out with 5 ml a gallon and increase it each week until its at full dose. Just under at 9 ml/gl. Its best to brew it before you feed.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 24, 2012)

Good to know. How long are you supposed to brew? I typically aerate my nutrients for a good bit to mix them, but nothing like hours or anything. Best to let it sit out all night?


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 24, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> Good to know. How long are you supposed to brew? I typically aerate my nutrients for a good bit to mix them, but nothing like hours or anything. Best to let it sit out all night?


I don't mix the Natural Bloom in with my nutrients because it's SUPER thick and likes to just settle down on the sides and bottom of my res. I measure it out and pour it into a cup, then fill the cup up with my sprayer and then pour it over the soil. Then I water a little bit and then come back and water again. 

I use it weekly, starting as soon as I see flowers. I start at 5ml the first week and get up to 15ml the fourth week. Then I stop, as I also feel that even though it's a liquid it doesn't all get absorbed right away...

What have you been using for P so far?


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## blueJ (Apr 24, 2012)

i've been bubbling everything at least 12hrs, 24 to 36hrs if i have the foresight to start a batch early  sometimes i'm out of town and have to water right away, but i still give it a couple hours at least. 

I have just harvested a couple ladies, and have a few different batches in flower ranging from a few days to several weeks and it appears i've conquered my early yellowing issues. I suppose i attribute it to:

1. heavy amended soilless mix with large variety & at last 50/50 reused soil (kelp, alfalfa, neem, "vegan mix", azomite, greensand, granular humic, dolomite lime, epsom)
2. Natures Nectar Nitrogen (NNN) added on top of everything else @ 5ml/gal for first feeding in flower, 2nd feeding also if plant doesn't darken up enough.
3. heavy feedings of biocanna with Aptus Fasilitor
4. everything fed is an act, full feedings nearly every time with a handfull of compost or ewc tossed in to bubble with it

Now i haven't been using the Humboldt bloom at all, it left a bad taste in my mouth because it was always after my first feeding with that in it that everything started yellowing up and gettin' crispy. I was also not bubbling things much either then and i felt like i was just mish-mashing things together. Now that everything fits in a bit better i may start adding it into a few teas @ 5ml/gal in flower to see how it does, at least to get rid of it anyways, i don't like that it's 0-10-0, i'd like it at no more than 7.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 24, 2012)

grab budswell yellow if you want a 0-7-0, it is guano based though :/


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## blueJ (Apr 24, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> grab budswell yellow if you want a 0-7-0, it is guano based though :/


To be honest... i did lol! I don't think i mind a _little_ bird/bat shit and i'm seeing how a few do and of course they're coming out great, i don't think i'll ever go back to using bone/blood meal though. I'm doing a single tea application with 1TBSP/gal of the budswel @ first onset of flower and again @ peak blooming. Seems like calyxes are swelling up fatter on these ones? I don't know what it is but i guess the microbes go ape shit over the bird shit.

I like the budswel vs. a pure bag of guano, it smells sweet and earthy and has the consistency of EWC, not sure of the ratios but budswel is EWC, seabird guano and bat guano, not sure how they get it to be 0-7-0, i think 1-7-.5 makes more sense with the EWC being in there.

My setup is turning into a nonstop perpetual harvest so i'm able to try different things, seems like i'm harvesting a few every week.


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## blueJ (Apr 24, 2012)

I've been thinking in terms of your weekly nute amounts nightbird, and just to compare here's what i'm feeding @ max feedings, a couple weeks into flower when i'm doing full vega and full flores.

These are for_* one feeding applied twice*_ in one week, no other waterings in between. So double for total nutes given in one week.

Per gallon in order of adding to water:
0.7ml aptus fasilitor (or 1ml protekt)
0.7ml aptus humiblast (or 3ml fulpower)
3 - 5ml molasses (or honey ES or agave)
10ml vega
15ml flores
10ml bioboost
pinch of technaflora soluble seaweed
1TBSP EWC or compost

bubble for 12 to 24hrs

then add:
3ml hygrozyme
3ml GO calmag

feed immediately

Bitches love it!


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## Dank Raptor (Apr 24, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> Good to know. How long are you supposed to brew? I typically aerate my nutrients for a good bit to mix them, but nothing like hours or anything. Best to let it sit out all night?


ya I like to brew the Bloom for 24 hours. I have found that the soft rock phosphate is good food for a fungal dominant brew so I have been using it as a food source in fungal tea. I believe this helps break it down for the girls. Keep in mind the stuff is very light and hard to burn your plants with.


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## Matt Rize (Apr 24, 2012)

thanks to all for posting here.

check out my new garden 
[video=youtube;SVCPLFzgMKg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVCPLFzgMKg[/video]


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## trichmasta (Apr 24, 2012)

How bout this...

http://vitallandscaping.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&layout=item&id=37&Itemid=22

This is the newest addition to my tea's at 2 tbsp/gal


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## blueJ (Apr 24, 2012)

Some God Bud goin' in the dark for 48, some curing Bogbubble MMmmm


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## NightbirdX (Apr 25, 2012)

looking good matt. I think Cali may be calling her long lost son home if these dipshits that run things in the midwest keep it up. I miss the Sierra Nevadas a lot anyways. It isnt something you get outta your system easily, kinda like a trailer park. 

and bluej- I am cutting out vega at around day 7-10. in week 1 they get 25ml vega, then water. in week 2 they get the same, but I think im gonna add 10ml budswell here as a phos boost, the next 4 weeks get 30ml flores at start of week, and on waterings they get 5ml flores bumped up to 20 mls as needed through week 6 and then I taper off to finish. 1 week flush, anymore is kinda a waste of yield.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 25, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> looking good matt. I think Cali may be calling her long lost son home if these dipshits that run things in the midwest keep it up. I miss the Sierra Nevadas a lot anyways. It isnt something you get outta your system easily, kinda like a trailer park.
> 
> and bluej- I am cutting out vega at around day 7-10. in week 1 they get 25ml vega, then water. in week 2 they get the same, but I think im gonna add 10ml budswell here as a phos boost, the next 4 weeks get 30ml flores at start of week, and on waterings they get 5ml flores bumped up to 20 mls as needed through week 6 and then I taper off to finish. 1 week flush, anymore is kinda a waste of yield.


Hahaha, kinda like a trailer park... good stuff man. I've always thought you seemed like a cali kinda guy, but you can't leave the mitt broham, sorry. Back on topic.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 25, 2012)

Lol at the trailer park joke, my mom had a midlife crisis and moved back into one haha. 

Southern Oregon seems like a better option lately than Cali, at least lately.... if we leave MI that's probably where we're headed. Might even be able to grow hemp for bricks or fuel! 


New place looks awesome Matt, looks like lots and lots of work too! See ya in a few MONTHS lol.


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## Kalyx (Apr 25, 2012)

> NightbirdX*
> 
> I have heard of people using Humboldt Natural Bloom as a bloom booster. Anyone have any experience with this? I was thinking maybe of adding some of this on the watering day earlier in the bloom phase until I reach full swing with Flores. How is this used? Would 5ml/gal 1x a week and adjust from there, be about right?​​
> 
> ...


5ml/ gallon is exactly what I tried on my current run with OGs. Its the first time I've used the Natural BLOOM as part of my KP boost. It seems to have done the job as I see only a few leaves doing the P curl, mostly older lower ones. Biocanna def needs some P help IMO tho. My KP boost is: 1/8tsp Techniflora Seaweed 1-1-16, 5ml Natural BLOOM 0-10-0, and 5-7ml organic Blackstrap Molasses ~0-0-4 per Gallon. Totaling to around 1-11-20 (KP boost = twice the K as P) I ran my KP boost starting at week 3 thru week 5. I alternate food and tea and only add KP boost to my nute waterings. The yield seems down compared to my last OG plants but I can't tell what variable its from. (New mix, vegan nutes, different pruning mostly for solventless hash making 8P, got hot quick here this spring so went from 1000 to 600 midway thru) Have some pics just no time to get em off my camera today.



> Dank Raptor
> ya I like to brew the Bloom for 24 hours. I have found that the soft rock phosphate is good food for a fungal dominant brew so I have been using it as a food source in fungal tea. I believe this helps break it down for the girls. Keep in mind the stuff is very light and hard to burn your plants with.


Dank Raptor I learned (I think from this thread/ Teaming with Microbes) that high P environments can actually hinder certain forms of fungal development. Other than more time for breakdown, facilitated microbial breakdown, why do you feel that this high P product is GOOD for fungal tea?



> trichmastaHow bout this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I use the Glacial Rock and Baseline Humic in my mix. I do put some Baseline in my teas but stopped using the glacial in them (was doing TBL/gal). I like the glacial rock in my mix tho. Great for micros and some also say that it puts our containered plants back in touch with the earth's magnetic fields and hippy whatnots, which I am also into.
In my teas for micros I use kelp (of course), a product called FULVEX by botanicare (omri listed fulvic/micros) which I LOVE (two bottles in one) and have used progress earths TONIC product which is $$$pricey but also contains all the biodynamic preps in addition to two salt sources of natural micros and trace elements.

Love and Light. Hope everyone had a good 420 and didn't do too much impulse buying at all the industry sales pushes! LOL

Matt, if the farm move isn't too much maybe you can shed some light on the P vs. fungal growth thing for us. NICE spread we are all jealous! 'cept the moving part, my back hurts enough just lifting out my 5 gallon bags! It will be worth all the work for high end outdoor tho! cant wait to hear about it on the HUGE VEGANIC PLANTS thread. The SUN for the win!


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## CaliWorthington (Apr 25, 2012)

Congrats on the new ranch Matt. Looks perfect there. I can see why you tore down your sh!t in the city.

I haven't gotten around to setting up that compost tumbler to make a proper veganic mix yet, so I just did a run in some crappy soil (happy frog/roots organic mix). Teaming with gnats, but they're mostly dead now. Been feeding with the Bio Canna/Boost, adding in Maxicrop, Ful Humix, Hygrozyme, etc... Now I'm starting to make vermi-tea too.

I just got a few bags of this http://www.ncwgs.com/just_right_xtra.php soil, which would be veganic except for the very last ingredient, Bone Char. It also has Maidenwell Diatomaceous Silica Stone, which supposedly slow releases Silica into the soil. At first I thought there were rocks in the bag, until I Googled it. Some people use that Silica Stone as their entire hydro substrate, instead of Hydroton.

Anyway, I thought you might be interested in the Silica Stone. Or was it already mentioned before I joined the thread?

Fire OG
View attachment 2138409View attachment 2138410


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 25, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> I use the Glacial Rock and Baseline Humic in my mix. I do put some Baseline in my teas but stopped using the glacial in them (was doing TBL/gal). I like the glacial rock in my mix tho. Great for micros and some also say that it puts our containered plants back in touch with the earth's magnetic fields and hippy whatnots, which I am also into.
> In my teas for micros I use kelp (of course), a product called FULVEX by botanicare (omri listed fulvic/micros) which I LOVE (two bottles in one) and have used progress earths TONIC product which is $$$pricey but also contains all the biodynamic preps in addition to two salt sources of natural micros and trace elements.
> 
> Love and Light. Hope everyone had a good 420 and didn't do too much impulse buying at all the industry sales pushes! LOL
> ...


Speaking of hippy dippy and whatnot, do you plant by the lunar cycle Kalyx? I just had a conversation with someone that has me thinking I want to try it lol.

And actually, along with P vs. fungal growth, I'd like to see if Matt or anyone else has some insight to share on why so many people lately have been trying to convince me that Cannabis plants prefer a bacterial environment rather than a fungal one. Wouldn't the soil being more bacterial raise the pH? Just doesn't seem right to me.


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## NightbirdX (Apr 25, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Hahaha, kinda like a trailer park... good stuff man. I've always thought you seemed like a cali kinda guy, but you can't leave the mitt broham, sorry. Back on topic.


Ya I like it here, but the people that run it are idiots. But I really at least to take a nice long vacay to cali to recharge my batteries. I need to hit up the mountains, SF area, and so cal. Then I will be good for a bit longer.


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## Dank Raptor (Apr 25, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> Dank Raptor I learned (I think from this thread/ Teaming with Microbes) that high P environments can actually hinder certain forms of fungal development. Other than more time for breakdown, facilitated microbial breakdown, why do you feel that this high P product is GOOD for fungal tea?


Kalyx, I am more then happy to explain. Teaming with microbes is a great book and I am gonna type whats written on the bottom of page 154 and the top of page 155 in the book. 

Molasses (nonsulfured, so as not to kill the microbes) in powdered or liquid form, cane syrup, maple syrup, fruit juices all feed bacteria in tea and increase their populations. Two tablespoons of any of those simple sugars in four of five gallons of water will help bacteria multiply and establish dominance. If you make a bigger brew, add more nutrients in the same proportion: the amount of all added nutrients will vary linearly as you increase the size of your brew. More complex sugars and fish emulsion are also good bacterial food, though both will also support some fungal growth.
To encourage fungal growth in compost teas, add kelp, humic and fulvic acids, and phosphate rock dusts, which not only provide the fungi with nutrient value but also give them surfaces to attach on while they grow.

So there you go. Straight from the book, the soft rock phosphate. (which is what HN BLoom is) is indeed fungal food... and shelter.


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## NnthStTrls (Apr 25, 2012)

I started this thread. I was interested because I have seen video of a veganics garden and it was fantastic. Then, while reading this Matt guy's writing, the writing took on a voice. This voice was very similar in type to a televangelist or some dude on a cheesy infomercial. 

Just thought that was funny.


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## Kalyx (Apr 25, 2012)

> WitchDoctor
> Speaking of hippy dippy and whatnot, do you plant by the lunar cycle Kalyx? I just had a conversation with someone that has me thinking I want to try it lol.


No I haven't come that far on the journey yet... But I'd bet anybody a gram of veganic OG wax that moon cycle awareness and the dedication to learn about and time plant cycles with nature's cycles will make our favorite crop DANKER at harvest, everything else done correctly and consciously as well. I am a firm believer that even indoor crops are more in touch with higher cycles than modern humans pay attention to. I've grown Four o'clocks indoors under lights and no matter what the light cycle/time of year they opened their flowers at Four DAILY, awesome. 

Here's some bookmarks I have on it tho

Lunar Cannabis Article CC
medicinalherbs by the moon
Roots & Harmony (this one is a commercial site but they used to make the weed/moon 18 month calendar to help out timing the cycles)

Lets do it on our outdoor this year!




> Dank Raptor
> Kalyx, I am more then happy to explain. Teaming with microbes is a great book and I am gonna type whats written on the bottom of page 154 and the top of page 155 in the book.


Thanks DR. (I loathe searching resources and I was a bit lazy on that last post, but it is SUPER important to not be considered 'hot air' online!)
Here I've done a quick search and this is what I am referring to by "certain forms" in my last post my stoner brain meant Mycorrhizae!

http://mining.state.co.us/TechnicalBulletins/MycorrhizaAndSoilPhosphorusLevels.pdf 

CO State is HIGHLY trustworthy and they took care of my sick puppy and charged me $0 when I lived up in my favorite state! Anyway heres the gist of it: I highlighted the important stuff *with bold and underline (3 sections) couldnt figure out how to do font color changes

*But anyways DR, apart from citations for one another; what improved about your fungal Tea with more rock phosphate in there? Also do you think there is a better form of it (i.e. straight powder vs. chelated with kelp plus calcium from Humboldt nutes) for boosting the fungal Tea? I understand there are MANY more types of fungi involved in our containers than just Mycorrhizae and want to learn to boost ALL of the bennies! 

Sorry if the huge article quote is too verbose for some... just RIZE UP! and add in some real science (the new religion) to your knowledge base!



> Mycorrhiza and soil phosphorus levels
> Curtis E. Swift, Ph.D.
> Area Extension Agent (Horticulture)
> Colorado State University Cooperative Extension
> ...


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## Dank Raptor (Apr 25, 2012)

In the first paragraph the article states that Mycorrhizae are responsible for a big portion of a plants phosphorus uptake. We all agree with that. However, the article says nothing about soft rock phosphate. Instead it talks about mono calcium phosphate. Which is phosphate rock that is treated with phosphoric or sulfuric acid. (chemical fertilizer)

Later it states that mycorrhizae levels are decreased with the addition of phosphate fertilizer. This is because the symbiotic relationship the fungus has with the plant and the naturally occuring phosphorus is destroyed. The plant needs less and less mycorrhizae for uptake because the relationship is being interfered with chemicals.
*

Mycorrhizal infection virtually disappeared with the addition of 1.5 grams or
more of mono calcium phosphate per kilogram of soil (Mosse 1973). With small
additions of phosphorus fertilizer, entry points and fungal growth on the root surface
remained normal but arbuscles were small and fewer in number reducing the
effectiveness of the fungus/plant relationship. Other researchers have reported
mycorrhizal infections tend to die out in soils containing or given much phosphorus
(Baylis, 1967; Mosse, 1967). The development of mycorrhizal relationships were
found to be the greatest when soil phosphorus levels were at 50 mg kg -1 (50 ppm)



​
​

*In summary, soft rock phosphate is an organic form of phosphorus that is not instanly available to your plants. It promotes fungal growth because it is necessary for your plants to break it down. On the other hand, phosphorus fertilizer bypasses the relationship required by the fungi in order for your plants to receive it. Therefore mycorrhizae population is decreased with chemical phosphate but increased with soft rock phosphate.


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## blacktourmaline (Apr 26, 2012)

Nightbird- QUOTE"I have heard of people using Humboldt Natural Bloom as a bloom booster. Anyone have any experience with this? I was thinking maybe of adding some of this on the watering day earlier in the bloom phase until I reach full swing with Flores. How is this used? Would 5ml/gal 1x a week and adjust from there, be about right?[/QUOTE]

Natural Bloom has always worked great for me(alone 10ml-15ml gal ) and even ontop of flores(5-10ml gal), Lots of calcium so depending on your water source you have to be careful. Mag, is very crucial too with veganics.


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## Kalyx (Apr 26, 2012)

DR thanks for more info on P vs myco. 
I think of it a bit differently I guess. This may be drastic oversimplification but here goes. Its like predator/prey population graphs in biology. As the prey curve goes up so does the predator curve just slightly delayed on the time axis. Once there are a threshold number of predators the prey graph tops out and the curve goes back down, mirrored later in time by the predator population curve going back down.
I think that this too is the case with P (P is P the Rgroups really dont matter, especially if we are all gardening organically and no mono calcium P will be applied) and myco. In the paragraph above my last bold and underline, the article I posted stated that even foliar P application caused less myco activity on the roots, why? Keep in mind myco is a symbiont with our plant. If the plant already has enough P uptake without them it will not nourish the myco it doesn't need as much because its P appetite is being fulfilled. So if the plant is getting adequate P, IMO it won't nurture its myco bennies and "waste" energy there. In the above analogy the myco is the predators and they will dwindle as the prey (root exudates for myco) stop being produced by a host plant which has all the P (no matter what form its in) it needs. Make sense? 

Another tangential and separate point: There is a substantial difference in soft rock phosphate compared to Humboldt's Natural BLOOM. Which I think is what I got caught up on in your tea comments, so I started asking my questions... (about which I'm still wondering, I'll explain)



> But anyways DR, apart from citations for one another; what improved about your fungal Tea with more rock phosphate in there? Also do you think there is a better form of it (i.e. straight powder vs. chelated with kelp plus calcium from Humboldt nutes) for boosting the fungal Tea? I understand there are MANY more types of fungi involved in our containers than just Mycorrhizae and want to learn to boost ALL of the bennies!


So I get it that the rock dust known as 'soft rock phosphate' will present for mineralization P, many micros, usually Ca, and possibly more depending on its source, as well as provide a physical medium for them to occupy. This makes sense to me to boost up a fungal tea. (What we learned from your teaming with crobes quotes, thanks for digging em up)

What I wanna know from your real world experience is why Natural BLOOM is good for the fungal tea? Whether in your opinion it is better for fungus in the tea. IMO its not because of what the fungi do compared to what the Humboldt Nute factory processes do. In my understanding (can't grab my bottle now bc my daughter is asleep in my lap) the nute company starts with soft rock phosphate but THEY do the processing that you infer is the job of our myco in our amended living organic soils. The COMPANY breaks down the rock and chelates the P with kelp, yucca?, and probably nitric acid, etc.



> Dank Raptor
> This is because the symbiotic relationship the fungus has with the plant and the naturally occuring phosphorus is destroyed. The plant needs less and less mycorrhizae for uptake because the relationship is being interfered with chemicals.
> 
> In summary, soft rock phosphate is an organic form of phosphorus that is not instanly available to your plants. It promotes fungal growth because it is necessary for your plants to break it down. On the other hand, phosphorus fertilizer bypasses the relationship required by the fungi in order for your plants to receive it. Therefore mycorrhizae population is decreased with chemical phosphate but increased with soft rock phosphate.


So now I've distilled my questions better. I think I already have your answer but ill ask again. 

1. Do you consider the Natural BLOOM a P fertilizer, or a liquid soft rock phosphate?

My thoughts are since its chelated it will act more as P fertilizer from the article as far as root availability and then MAY convince the plant to nurture its myco bennies less, or not very well at all if its getting all its P from a chelated liquid source which IS readily available.

2. Do we care about this issue, or is myco dieoff a sacrifice you are willing to make to present more (overrated) P to the plant?

That is why I only topped out at 5ml/gallon Natural BLOOM and ran my KP boost only weeks 3-5, and reinnoculate with whole spore mycos after my last KP boost watering, so my mycos would be present and strong thru the final important weeks of resin production. This issue also makes me happy to not be adding high P guanos to my mix if they were working to stunt one of my most important bennies from reaching its potential to make my roots healthier and max out resin quality. This is also part of why I do a KP boost (2xK as P) for my bloom boost as well, P is overrated, what they really need is high K indoors, we are not in the ground where P leaches away so fast, our roots reach the bottom of our containers so we dont need to load up P like the outdoor growers do. I believe that sometimes less is more, especially with organics and utmost quality as THE goal.


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## Dank Raptor (Apr 26, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> What I wanna know from your real world experience is why Natural BLOOM is good for the fungal tea?
> 
> I like it because it is real simple. SRP,Kelp and calcium. My hydro store does not sell any other form of soft rock phosphate thats not in a bottle so I dont have anything else to compare it to.
> 
> ...


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## Kalyx (Apr 27, 2012)

> Dank Raptor
> I like it because it is real simple. SRP,Kelp and calcium. My hydro store does not sell any other form of soft rock phosphate thats not in a bottle so I dont have anything else to compare it to. ​


Soft Rock Phosphate should be available at any nursery etc. Its getting more expensive because all the easy to mine reserves are gone and now the rock is sourced mostly in countries that don't like USA extracting all their wealth. I can't believe your grow shop doesn't carry it with their other granular amendments, their loss if you have to buy at a nursery. Which is what I'd do if you care to do a side by side vs. Natural BLOOM, I think its like $25ish a bag where I've bought in the past. Here is a link with tons of details about peak Phosphorus: 

http://www.soilassociation.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=eeGPQJORrkw=

So based on the info in above link it is important to me to learn to grow nice plants without this industrial (mining) input. Hence veganics and getting our P from plants that are good at concentrating it in their biochemistry. I think a lot have mentioned comfrey for this. 

Now to the meat of your P questions this article sums it up good:

http://staging.maximumyield.com/article_sh_db.php?articleID=464&yearVar=2009&issueVar=August

First some qualifying info on Erik. The guy is very knowledgable and educated and from reading his stuff I believe he knows whats up as far as why Max Yield and the whole industry exists - to grow cannabis. That said he has also worked for Advanced Nutrients (AN) as a pitch guy, so take what he says with healthy skepticism as well, he may just be pushing Hammerhead bloom booster lol. However, the science that he and AN mention goes beyond their marketing machine I'm pretty sure.

To sum it up they are questioning the old advice (Jorge, Ed, Mel, etc) to hit em P with no mercy. This matters in 2 respects: 1.) Our plants will be healthier given better nutrition, more balanced to their needs. 2.) We can avoid our wallets hurting from buying all these high P products whose price will continue to rise given the global P scenario.

To sum up a conversation I had with my GH rep a while back. We were talking about organics vs. synthetics age old yield controversy. He mentioned that its harder to get crazy high P concentrations with organic products (GO, etc). He told me that they did tests in Cali on P and basically they concluded that P is a stressor, and that is why cannabis responds favorably to high dose applications; cause its a weed and a little positive stress just kicks it into high gear! So if anyone using GO was complaining about lower yields and didn't mind a little synth in there heres what their tests revealed. The best synth boost (and conveniently a GH product) to use on top of GO based on their Cali test was liquid Kool Bloom 0-10-10. Interestingly tho he said for the best yield increase in the test the 0-10-10 was applied only twice; once in week 3 and once in week 5. Doing this grew plants that were outyielding ones that had been given the 0-10-10 all the way thru. The reason they hypothesized was that the 2 applications were positive stressors which the plant pushed through with zest, instead of being constantly stressed throughout all of bloom (did their myco stress too much?). He reported the plants given 0-10-10 twice yielded 10-15% more dry weight at the end of the test compared to the straight GO line without the 0-10-10.

So getting back to nutrient ratios for indoor cannabis check this out:

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=181405

Look at the total above ground part of the second graph down. I don't think this counts the roots but its interesting info anyways. There is less P than Ca and even Mg!
I'm pretty sure that this 'new' info has just come out based on better tech to analyze the samples. I think they just burn the plant material and analyze the ashes (volunteers for the first part anyone? hehe). So nowadays with medical cannabis researchers can finally do this with our favorite plant and maybe even different varieties will yield different results and allow those in the know to REALLY dial in their feedings.

Getting back to our conversation:



> Do we care about this issue, or is myco dieoff a sacrifice you are willing to make to present more (overrated) P to the plant?
> 
> I would never knowingly feed my plant anything that promoted any type of damage to myco. The kelp may help break down the soft rock phosphate. If I knew of them using any type of chemicals to do the job I would find another source of phosphorus.


What I'm saying is that maybe just P itself (organic or synth based) if over-applied could lessen the plants interest in its myco colony, so I reinnoculate after I'm done lightly stressing them with extra P application in weeks 3-5. Even if there is ZERO synth P applied, IMO just the presence of root absorbable P (I assume this is what the rock phosphate in Natural BLOOM has been processed into) could harm the myco.



> I have heard what you say about P leaching from soil when growing outdoors. That goes to say that less should be used indoors than outdoors, but doesnt necessarily mean that P is overrated and less should be used. I am fully aware of how much my plants can take. Indicas love phosphorus, it helps give hard buds.


There is a lot of data on the differences in indoor vs outdoor from a rhizo-perspective. The article says it well. I dunno about the wording 'should', I guess I'm just saying less 'can' be used without losses in yield/quality. And yes I have been testing this theory on my last few grows (see KP boost lower down) Maybe indica is just more stress resistant as these varieties evolved in more of a mountainous desert compared to the paradise the sativas evolved in? So indica kinda likes more stressors to bring about a full genetic response to the environment? Dunno



> Are you saying you use a PK booster, or just stating the fact that you feed twice as much potassium as phosphorus when boosting your crop? What do you use for potassium and phosphorus?


PK booster = flashy label, overmarketed, "miracle juice" that usually costs a LOT (especially ANs BS knockoffs of everyone else's good sellers)

I used these products in the past before I learned that this plant will grow great without the industry or the constant hype and BS around 'just add this' products. The one I have most experience with years ago is Botanicare's Hydroplex. So basically all these products offer high dose (especially the synth ones) P and K, and the good (expensive) ones usually offer other fancy snack molecules for bloom. Traditionally the P is double the K or more (0-52-32, 0-10-6, etc) I think there may be a place for these type products, just NOT in my garden and NOT hitting the rootzone with this stressor all the time they are in bloom.

What I do after learning all this in the last year is a KP boost: (thats just the way I phrase adding in extra KP on top of my Biocanna+)

(KP boost = twice the K as P)
My KP boost is: 1/8tsp Techniflora Seaweed 1-1-16, 5ml Natural BLOOM 0-10-0, and 5-7ml organic Blackstrap Molasses ~0-0-4 per Gallon. Totaling to around 1-11-20 I run my KP boost starting at week 3 thru week 5. I alternate food and tea and only add KP boost to my nute waterings. This OG round is the first time I've used the Natural BLOOM as part of my KP boost. It seems to have done the job as I see only a few leaves doing the P curl, mostly older lower ones. Biocanna def needs some P help IMO tho. As I said above I only run this boost until week 5 and then reinnoculate the myco to make it a maxed-out network again for the final resin push.

So like I said earlier I have been recently doing the KP thing for my bloom boost. On the first round I tried it I got a record yield for me of high quality LSD buds, can't really say how much as I am a med patient. Lets just say if had done four of these I would have had more than four times our allowed weight  Here she is right before chop time 1plant vegged long on 400, bloomed 1000w filled 4x4 tent!

The OGs I did more of a 'hash' prune and I doubt they'll be a record yielder, but man that grease is sooooo flavorful on the sniff test! But I think they had enough P just yielded less cause I left like a hundred too many flower sites on them.

Interestingly, Matt no longer uses the Natural BLOOM and from his pics I'd say his ladies are doing great and not getting P loaded into their roots? Why did you discontinue this product Matt? Was it because you just didn't need any extra P on top of your full regimen?

Thanks for staying with me Dank Raptor. It alarms me how some of these forum interactions get so tiffy like 'Your wrong, I'm right' when really if we all conversed respectfully with each other for a few more lines then everybody gets to learn, digest, and discuss further until we are on the journey together and stronger for it. Kinda like the plants in our organic gardens with full myco compared to ones that the synth (or P loading?) has caused the plants to not care about their natural friends, the symbionts have it right; they work well with others!


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## Kalyx (May 2, 2012)

> *
> 
> Dank Raptor
> Just mixed up a Fungal dominant brew.
> ...


DR I found your Fungi Dominant Brew recipe in the AACT thread. I believe where our conversation started was my wondering what you do (other than utilize Natural BLOOM in it) to make general tea into a specifically fungal dominate one. From this post I see you do multiple things. So basically I'm gonna answer my below question for myself (based on this here) cause I don't want to stall out this rad thread. My ?:



> Kalyx
> *
> 
> what improved about your fungal Tea with more rock phosphate in there? Also do you think there is a better form of it (i.e. straight powder vs. chelated with kelp plus calcium from Humboldt nutes) for boosting the fungal Tea? I understand there are MANY more types of fungi involved in our containers than just Mycorrhizae and want to learn to boost ALL of the bennies!​
> ...


So now that I found this older post I have the answer to my question. I am answering my own ? more for clarification for others b/c I get that you (DR and most other organic long-timers) understand these points as you do these practices in YOUR fungal dominant tea.

1) Make a 'santas beard' using oat bran as a food source to replicate the fungi (fungi only grow longer hyphae in AACT, these pre-steps allow them to increase in number as well, to give them a better starting point when competing for resources with fast dividing bacteria)

2) Soft Rock Phosphate (the rock powder form of it) adds physical shelter and some micros and slow release P food source per Teaming with Microbes (I don't know if Natural Bloom acts more like the rock powder cause its organic or if the processing makes it more of an immediatly available P source)

3) Fish hydrolysate provides an all important protein food source (plus oils and other consumables).




NEW ? FOR EVERYONE: COMMENTS ON THE KP boost and the OVERUSE of P for container gardens? Myth or new info? Anyone else tested this theory yet? 


Greenchile is adjusting his supersoil mix based on the premise of more K to balance out the HUGE P load from the bone meal AND high P guano:



> Greenchile
> *
> 
> Ive grown with Subs supersoil multiple times and have mixed it up in different base soils.
> ...


I think this discussion is pretty important for the (mostly)vegan growing style as it is tough to find vegan P sources that are potent like the animal derived ones. However it seems that K is abundantly available in the plant kingdom (probably because it is actually more utilized in the cellular composition of most plants, also the case in cannabis) So do we need to spend the money on all the P amending? What do you think?


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## Dank Raptor (May 2, 2012)

*



what improved about your fungal Tea with more rock phosphate in there? Also do you think there is a better form of it (i.e. straight powder vs. chelated with kelp plus calcium from Humboldt nutes) for boosting the fungal Tea? I understand there are MANY more types of fungi involved in our containers than just Mycorrhizae and want to learn to boost ALL of the bennies!​​


​
​

*Not sure if there is a better form of soft rock phosphate. I know that there is a raw form but I dont want to switch because I have been pulling some massive harvests recently. The only other ingredients HN Bloom lists is kelp and Yucca, the calcium is naturally in rock phosphate. I don't believe that HN Bloom Natural is chelated, like you mentioned earlier. There are two versions of HN Bloom. The natural "organic" version 0-10-0 and there is another regular HN Bloom 0-6-5 that is chem. Confusing huh?

My teas have definately improved since using the soft rock. I have noticed a difference in the overall soil texture of my plants. There is a systemic fungi throughout the medium that gives the soil a soft spongy feel. 

The three points you made about my tea recipe I could not have said better myself. Especially how the bacteria are fast dividing and I also believe that "giving fungi a head start" (from the book teaming with microbes) is important. Wish I could +rep you again Kalyx.


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## + WitchDoctor + (May 3, 2012)

This was a great discussion, I wasn't expecting to learn so MUCH! 

Bio Rhizotonic is for sale in the US now if anyone doesn't know yet. I just bought some here in Michigan at a local hydro store. Can't wait to try it out! I believe they can get Bio Terra Plus now as well, and I think it's vegan now.


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## Kalyx (May 3, 2012)

My local supplier just had a visit from the CANNA rep. A few things of note for us veganic users. Yes Bio Rhizotonic and Bio Cannazyme are supposedly coming here, (been available in Europe) not on the shelves from this dealer yet. I got no word on the BTplus they werent informed on that. The wierd thing they told me is that nothing has changed in these formulations only the labeling. So I asked if the products will be listed with OMRI as well, the shop did not ask this detailed of questions (wish I had a chance to talk to the rep myself). I always wonder though if they are just doing a label switch for marketing to sell more or actually making these products hold up to a higher organics standards for users who DO care.

Also one more interesting thing (heresay now I guess, because I got the info second hand) the CANNA rep said was about CANNAZYME. He of course was plugging it, but by comparing it to Hygrozyme which is one product I have used since the beginning which remains an enigma to me due to the 'top secret' formula and marketing. I do understand them not wanting to be reverse engineered by all the knockoff specialists (AN and many others). Anyway he said something akin to:

"buy cannazyme because it is a good all around (all types of x-ases to break up everything that plants want further broken down in our organic container mixes) enzyme product. It differs from Hygrozyme in that Hygrozyme contains many other booster molecules in addition to enzymes. So ours is more affordable cause it is purely a (I think set of 12) enzymes product without other expensive ingredients.

Theirs is cheaper than the OMRI listed Hygrozyme. I use Hygrozyme and love it but wonder what these other compounds besides enzymes are included for etc? And what is up with the alcoholic smell, is it just left over from fermenting bacteria to extract out the enzymes from?
I don't think alcohol is good in the rootzone but KNOW hygrozyme is so I wonder online for help....




> + WitchDoctor +Bio Rhizotonic is for sale in the US now if anyone doesn't know yet. I just bought some here in Michigan at a local hydro store. Can't wait to try it out! I believe they can get Bio Terra Plus now as well, and I think it's vegan now.​


Please keep us updated on the BT Plus availability and any formula changes (to vegan?) that you hear about. Danks for the bio-update share!


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## Wolverine97 (May 3, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> My local supplier just had a visit from the CANNA rep. A few things of note for us veganic users. Yes Bio Rhizotonic and Bio Cannazyme are supposedly coming here, (been available in Europe) not on the shelves from this dealer yet. I got no word on the BTplus they werent informed on that. The wierd thing they told me is that nothing has changed in these formulations only the labeling. So I asked if the products will be listed with OMRI as well, the shop did not ask this detailed of questions (wish I had a chance to talk to the rep myself). I always wonder though if they are just doing a label switch for marketing to sell more or actually making these products hold up to a higher organics standards for users who DO care.
> 
> Also one more interesting thing (heresay now I guess, because I got the info second hand) the CANNA rep said was about CANNAZYME. He of course was plugging it, but by comparing it to Hygrozyme which is one product I have used since the beginning which remains an enigma to me due to the 'top secret' formula and marketing. I do understand them not wanting to be reverse engineered by all the knockoff specialists (AN and many others). Anyway he said something akin to:
> 
> ...


That first paragraph is a little confusing to me. I'm very curious to know more about the actual formulation, and whether a label change alone is enough to squeak them by. It seems like if it was merely a label change, that they could have done that long ago. I'll stay tuned, though the only thing I'm really interested in is the BT Plus so it doesn't affect me much...


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## + WitchDoctor + (May 4, 2012)

Here's the front and back of the rhizotonic. And yes Kalyx, I was told the same as well, that just the labeling changed. The BTP will be different however.


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## NightbirdX (May 8, 2012)

Wolverine, I still wanna talk to you about your GO regimen. Still not 100% completely satisfied with BioCanna. Might make the switch to GO. Tired of pissin in the wind I guess, lol. Good results, but they could be better. I just keep adding different supplements. Nature's Nectar Nitrogen, budswell for phos. And they just keep wanting more and more, lol. I think I've reached the peak of what I can do with BioCanna in my soil and need to get a more well rounded nutrient base. GO Bloom has twice the Phos of BioFlores, so right there, I can't see that being bad at all. 

I guess if BTP is released, that will change things. I would hope that it is balanced well enough to run their own nutrients. Because as much as they tell me that you need to run a base soil like Ocean Forest, I am running an amended OF Based blend, and am still dealing with deficiencies, and end up feeding it just about as much as my soilless regimen. I started juicing up to higher levels of BioFlores and have been using Budswell since my phos def began. So if I am using BioCanna as a base and still adding in 10 mls of Budswell per week, and 8-10ml of NN Nitrogen per week, why am I not looking for a more well rounded nutrient regimen. And if BioCanna does not want to make their soil available and don't want to give any solid advice, or make supplements to deal with what is wrong with their product, then I don't know if I want to spend an absurd amount of money on their bullshit. 

This is my week 5-6 regimen per gallon. 1st Feeding: 2ml HoneyES, 5ml NN Nitro, 5-10ml Budswell, 15ml BioBoost, 30ml BioFlores. 2nd Feeding: 2ml HoneyES, 5-8ml NN Nitrogen, 10ml Budswell, 20ml Flores. I feed about 2.5 quarts about every 3 days. I'm thinking of just bumping my second feeding up to 30mls/gal also. I've had problems in the past with running BioCanna at 30mls. I burned 3 plants last run when I tried to do it, and slowly worked into it this run. It worked a lot better. It just is right at the maximum amount for my Bubba Kush. So the Bubba Kush looks great. Better than it ever has. But it is my lightest feeder. So all my high octane strains are a bit on the def side. Still look nice and frosty, but all my fan leaves on the bottom are starting to get used up. 

Also thinking of topdressing with dry ferts Organicare or Rainbow mix and still running my regimen like it is... Might have to dial it back a bit... but all they keep telling me is more more more, lol. 

Ahh well rant over.


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## Wolverine97 (May 8, 2012)

Yeah man, I hear ya. I'm honestly not totally satisfied with the GO line either, but it does work pretty well. For the price difference between them, I just can't see paying for the Canna line (everyone I know that's used it has had some issues). I kinda feel like I'd just be paying for the name. I'm pretty convinced that they're almost the same nutrient line (they're made similarly) but they do have different ratio's of macronutrients. Anyhow, hit me up man, I'm around...


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## NightbirdX (May 8, 2012)

Ya I keep forgetting to when I see you. Maybe we eat and talk before we smoke next time, lol.


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## Matt Rize (May 9, 2012)

checking in.
[video=youtube;ATooVfLd6rg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATooVfLd6rg[/video]


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## 'ome Grown (May 9, 2012)

That creek is nice man....real soothing.

Would be nice to chill there for sure.


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## Da Almighty Jew (May 9, 2012)

He matt nice bro, how much does a place like that cost to rent out there in cali???


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## Wolverine97 (May 10, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> Ya I keep forgetting to when I see you. Maybe we eat and talk before we smoke next time, lol.


Blasphemy...


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## Bird Gymnastics (May 10, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> checking in.
> [video=youtube;ATooVfLd6rg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATooVfLd6rg[/video]


Loving the creek! Next time I'm in hopland, I'll have to stop by and show you some of my veganic white fire grease


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## NightbirdX (May 11, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Blasphemy...


I know, I know, lol.


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## Dank Raptor (May 11, 2012)

whats up veganic homies. I have a question for anyone using natures nectar nitrogen. I bought a bottle that smells like toenail funk. I would return it but I bought it online. Does your natures nectar nitrogen have a smell to it? I dont remember it smelling this bad.


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## Matt Rize (May 11, 2012)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> He matt nice bro, how much does a place like that cost to rent out there in cali???


not too much over a grand. im renting from a friend who owes me so its hard to give a number.


Bird Gymnastics said:


> Loving the creek! Next time I'm in hopland, I'll have to stop by and show you some of my veganic white fire grease


yee! please do. leave me a sample dab if im not there


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## blueJ (May 11, 2012)

Dank Raptor said:


> I bought a bottle that smells like toenail funk.... Does your natures nectar nitrogen have a smell to it? I dont remember it smelling this bad.


HAHAHA, yea that might be a good way to describe the smell! I noticed a funky bitter "sharp" not so pleasant smell to mine as well, i literally only use it once in the life cycle (so the smell isn't on my mind that often) and it serves its purpose for sure...


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## Hasbroh (May 11, 2012)

NightbirdX said:


> Wolverine, I still wanna talk to you about your GO regimen. Still not 100% completely satisfied with BioCanna. Might make the switch to GO. Tired of pissin in the wind I guess, lol. Good results, but they could be better. I just keep adding different supplements. Nature's Nectar Nitrogen, budswell for phos. And they just keep wanting more and more, lol. I think I've reached the peak of what I can do with BioCanna in my soil and need to get a more well rounded nutrient base. GO Bloom has twice the Phos of BioFlores, so right there, I can't see that being bad at all.
> 
> I guess if BTP is released, that will change things. I would hope that it is balanced well enough to run their own nutrients. Because as much as they tell me that you need to run a base soil like Ocean Forest, I am running an amended OF Based blend, and am still dealing with deficiencies, and end up feeding it just about as much as my soilless regimen. I started juicing up to higher levels of BioFlores and have been using Budswell since my phos def began. So if I am using BioCanna as a base and still adding in 10 mls of Budswell per week, and 8-10ml of NN Nitrogen per week, why am I not looking for a more well rounded nutrient regimen. And if BioCanna does not want to make their soil available and don't want to give any solid advice, or make supplements to deal with what is wrong with their product, then I don't know if I want to spend an absurd amount of money on their bullshit.
> 
> ...


Curious, what size pots are they in?


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## NightbirdX (May 12, 2012)

5 gal gardening pots. Actually 3 gals, I believe.


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## blueJ (May 25, 2012)

My regular shop's been out of the biocanna for their relabeling they're doing, SO, i've picked up some GO biothrive grow/bloom/boost and will see how it stacks up to the biocanna i've gotten accustomed to. The price puts a smile on my face and i think i like the NPK's better, 4-3-3 & 3-4-4 & biocanna is 3-1-5 & 2-2-5 respectively....i think 

I also went through my first "believer pack" freebie from Aptus, fasilitor & start/growth boost, and quite honestly it's made me a believer, i used fasilitor in place of protekt.... i've added their mass boost & finale boost as well, unfortuntely their "N" source is the only thing not "vegan" in their full lineup, but most of their products you use @ less than 1ml/gal

My first full grow with these aptus boosts are @ 3 weeks and the buds are the size of the same clones next to them which are finishing up @ 7 weeks, LOL, but i digress, aptus is not a topic i guess i should be elaborating on in this thread, but it sure as shit is working for me 

Anyone care to share their thoughts that have used both GO line and bioCanna?


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## blueJ (May 25, 2012)

This batch of clones look nothing like the previous batch of clones from the same BLUSH (sour bubble x blue moon rocks) mother. This batch got a strong shot of natures nectar N @ start of bloom and bio vega fed a little stronger and longer into like the 3rd/4th week, otherwise same soil mix/teas/nutes lights/temps etc. Within a day of the initial NN-N feed it went a darker green and stayed like that until it purpled up starting @ maybe 4 weeks and the buds are much smaller, denser, much larger calyxes, and went friggen purple!


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## malignant (May 25, 2012)

must be doing something right! taking clones this week, finally finished mother selection from 5 dairy queens and 5 plushberries. going biocanna in a waterfarm, any one have exp with different mediums?


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## + WitchDoctor + (May 26, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Anyone care to share their thoughts that have used both GO line and bioCanna?


I didn't get much of a difference in yield or quality to be honest. I thought the Bio Canna harvest tasted a little better, but I was biased I suppose because I kind of expected the Bio Canna to taste better.

I had to use a little less Bio Vega during veg than the GO grow, so the fact that it costs more probably balanced out. But flowering with the GO bloom and Bio Bud cut what I pay for Bio Flores and Bio Boost in half easily. I think you'll be happy with the GO line. I just talked to someone at the store the other day who's using Pura Vida with supposedly great results as well.


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## blueJ (May 27, 2012)

I was paying seventy some dollars for a litre of the bioboost and it was gone in less than one run, the biobud or whatever GO's is called was like twenty something dollars and will probably last twice as long, we'll see how this run with all GO products goes though...


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## + WitchDoctor + (May 27, 2012)

Yea I only use the Bio Boost weeks 2-4 because it's so expensive.


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## Kalyx (May 27, 2012)

> Originally Posted by *blueJ*
> Anyone care to share their thoughts that have used both GO line and bioCanna?


I've used pura vida samples in the past. Luckily, I got many of them and it worked well, just not too concentrated so pricey.


I have run through 2 full line samples of 1 quart GO in organic soil. IMO the line is very easy to use and nicely streamlined, just follow the chart and double the chart is OK for most hybrids. Quality was great and the meds were VERY potent, yield was nice too. I use RO and the GO cal mag did the job for me. I did pH up it as it went down to 4.2-4.4 with RO. AACT helps it but is not necessary.


I have done one Rize style veganic round with OG, an old cut which is tricky to grow. The quality claims on RIU are what tempted me to shell out for the BioCannas and BioBOOST. I stuck to the program recommended in the thread and luckily already had some of the many supplements on the list... The OG came out wonderful but I must admit it was not a flawless run. I had high temps early then the pH drifted a bit high when I wasn't paying attention too well at the end. The prune was also a bit sloppy as I was drooling to make IWE out of veganic OG. I'll post some pics when our data storage issues resolve...



> blueJI was paying seventy some dollars for a litre of the bioboost and it was gone in less than one run, the biobud or whatever GO's is called was like twenty something dollars and will probably last twice as long, we'll see how this run with all GO products goes though...​


Are those prices actually at a shop? Sounds closer to cost on the GO and steep discount on the BioBOOST. One shop here has both and charges straight MSRP and I think the BioBOOST is $111/Liter (15ml/gallon, 66.66 gallons feed) and the BioBud is $40/Quart (5ml/gallon, 192 gallons feed). So we would be charged $333 by canna VS. $40 by GO for the bloom booster to juice just under 200 gallons of feed! Now thats calculated I feel like a sucker. If they have even close to similiar performance the decision is obvious right? Well the GO rep says that the GO is vegan not 100% organic so that may complicate things for some of us.

Sounds like its time for a side by side. I think I have some Biobud left. It would be rize veganics with BioBOOST vs rize veganics with BioBud. I have multiple new strains to look at so it may be awhile before they are going in groups of the same variety again.



> + WitchDoctor +
> I didn't get much of a difference in yield or quality to be honest. I thought the Bio Canna harvest tasted a little better, but I was biased I suppose because I kind of expected the Bio Canna to taste better.


Did you feel the increased cost of the nutes for the run justifies said quality increase? Your yields were similar on the same strain? 
I grew this OG once before with Roots Organics full line and pruned much better and the Roots yield crushed the BioCanna yield even corrected for the lame prune job. Interestingly, the Roots OG nugs were much more oily and way denser, but the BioCanna OG nugs still taste just as strong.


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## + WitchDoctor + (May 27, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> Are those prices actually at a shop? Sounds closer to cost on the GO and steep discount on the BioBOOST. One shop here has both and charges straight MSRP and I think the BioBOOST is $111/Liter (15ml/gallon, 66.66 gallons feed) and the BioBud is $43/Quart (5ml/gallon, 192 gallons feed). So we would be charged $333 by canna VS. $43 by GO for the bloom booster to juice just under 200 gallons of feed! Now thats calculated I feel like a sucker. If they have even close to similiar performance the decision is obvious right? Well the GO rep says that the GO is vegan not 100% organic so that may complicate things for some of us.
> 
> Sounds like its time for a side by side. I think I have some Biobud left. It would be rize veganics with BioBOOST vs rize veganics with BioBud. I have multiple new strains to look at so it may be awhile before they are going in groups of the same variety again.
> 
> ...


That's about what I'm paying for nutes as well. http://growgreenmi.com/biothrive-bloom-gal

I tried doing a side by side with bio canna and GO, but one side got mites so I finished them all with the GO line and didn't get pics or anything...

A side by side bio bud vs bio boost would be awesome, but are we just assuming that these products are designed to do the same thing? I know the bio boost has something to do with plant hormones if I remember correctly...is bio bud the same kind of product?

And no, I don't think that the increased cost of nutes justifies the quality increase, at least not for most people. I actually recommend GO to people over Bio Canna because the GO line is easier to use and requires less supplements, and like you said it's just streamlined nice for people. But like you said, GO isn't 100% organic, or even 95% for that matter, which is why I use Bio Canna. I hate paying more, but I don't like nute companies keeping "secrets" from me lol. 

I also just noticed last week that there's GMO soybean meal in the Bio Root, and call me an elitist, but if it starts with GMOs, it doesn't end with anything I want to grow my plants with lol. So I'm gonna use it up and replace it with something OMRI, or even better yet try to get by without it or less of something else.


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## Kalyx (May 27, 2012)

Cool.



> + WitchDoctor +
> A side by side bio bud vs bio boost would be awesome, but are we just assuming that these products are designed to do the same thing? I know the bio boost has something to do with plant hormones if I remember correctly...is bio bud the same kind of product?


From what I've learned in this thread plus my talk with the GH rep that day it seems they are pretty similar. They are both organic, non-pk blast, bloom enhancers whose specific "magic" effects are due to a cocktail of plant based extracts.



> + WitchDoctor +
> GO isn't 100% organic, or even 95% for that matter, which is why I use Bio Canna. I hate paying more, but I don't like nute companies keeping "secrets" from me lol.


Agreed. I'm starting to wonder if all OMRI is a better shopping goal (knowing ALL inputs are scrutinized) in addition to veganic (bioaccumulation, ethical harvesting/production processes). My BioBoost label has no OMRI icon either. Can't say I want to pay THAT price again!


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## Wolverine97 (May 27, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> That's about what I'm paying for nutes as well. http://growgreenmi.com/biothrive-bloom-gal
> 
> I tried doing a side by side with bio canna and GO, but one side got mites so I finished them all with the GO line and didn't get pics or anything...
> 
> ...


The Bio Bud is - from what I'm told - essentially the same product as Bio Boost, just more concentrated. I did confirm a while back that it is hormone based, so GO doesn't recommend exceeding label dosages for that particular product. I don't use the Bio Root, I use Rapid Start instead. Happy growing everyone.


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## + WitchDoctor + (May 27, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> The Bio Bud is - from what I'm told - essentially the same product as Bio Boost, just more concentrated. I did confirm a while back that it is hormone based, so GO doesn't recommend exceeding label dosages for that particular product. I don't use the Bio Root, I use Rapid Start instead. Happy growing everyone.


Hell yea, and it turns out the Bio Bud is organic, and they don't have a problem saying it's organic either, unlike the grow and bloom. What a great fucking day this turned out to be. I can actually get a gallon of Bio Bud for less than I'm getting a liter of Bio Boost. And I only have to use 1/3 of the amount. Looks like I'm gonna side by side it too then, since I have half a liter of Bio Boost left. I can get a quart of Bio Bud for $25 so I'll pick it up tomorrow.


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## Wolverine97 (May 28, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> Hell yea, and it turns out the Bio Bud is organic, and they don't have a problem saying it's organic either, unlike the grow and bloom. What a great fucking day this turned out to be. I can actually get a gallon of Bio Bud for less than I'm getting a liter of Bio Boost. And I only have to use 1/3 of the amount. Looks like I'm gonna side by side it too then, since I have half a liter of Bio Boost left. I can get a quart of Bio Bud for $25 so I'll pick it up tomorrow.


I really like the stuff. I routinely out-yield my "hydro-is-the-way" buddies in a hand watered soil garden.


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## trichmasta (May 29, 2012)

Price was definitely a concern for me on my first veganic run, so i went with the Natures Nectar line(N<P<K). Cost were fair, with a gal running $40 with discount! My results have been amazing with just 1 week of flush remaining. Flowers are solid, super resinous, and pungent smelling  yield looks like it's gonna be amazing as well!! One thing i will add is that i will ph throughout next run; had some mg defienciences...no bigs.


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## + WitchDoctor + (May 29, 2012)

trichmasta said:


> Price was definitely a concern for me on my first veganic run, so i went with the Natures Nectar line(N<P<K). Cost were fair, with a gal running $40 with discount! My results have been amazing with just 1 week of flush remaining. Flowers are solid, super resinous, and pungent smelling  yield looks like it's gonna be amazing as well!! One thing i will add is that i will ph throughout next run; had some mg defienciences...no bigs.


Sounds good man, $40 dollars a gallon isn't bad. You know the Nature's Nectar P isn't vegan though right? It's poop-based. But the NN N and the NN K are both vegan. I use the N, it's great stuff.


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## + WitchDoctor + (May 29, 2012)

Oh by the way guys, I just noticed for the first time today the General Hydroponics logo on my AzaMax...I never realized that GH made it...and it's OMRI. So that probably puts the whole "we don't believe in certifications argument to rest huh? Although they did raise concern about their secret formulas...but I'd think they'd have had the same concerns for AzaMax.


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## Wolverine97 (May 29, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> Oh by the way guys, I just noticed for the first time today the General Hydroponics logo on my AzaMax...I never realized that GH made it...and it's OMRI. So that probably puts the whole "we don't believe in certifications argument to rest huh? Although they did raise concern about their secret formulas...but I'd think they'd have had the same concerns for AzaMax.


I'm pretty sure they just buy that product from another source in bulk and re-label it. There is at least one other "Aza" product out there (Azatrol) that's in the exact same bottle and all. Same formula, dosage, etc...


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## + WitchDoctor + (May 30, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> I'm pretty sure they just buy that product from another source in bulk and re-label it. There is at least one other "Aza" product out there (Azatrol) that's in the exact same bottle and all. Same formula, dosage, etc...


Oh ok. I had never noticed the GH logo on it either.


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## trichmasta (May 30, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> Sounds good man, $40 dollars a gallon isn't bad. You know the Nature's Nectar P isn't vegan though right? It's poop-based. But the NN N and the NN K are both vegan. I use the N, it's great stuff.


Yeah but it's clear, odorless, and contaminant free, so i gave them all a go...the P is more similar to a rock phosphate than a guano in the state and availability it's in; from my understanding  Either way the i've heard it produces super clean medicine. which is always my focus. A little early to tell, but it looks like 1.5-3 oz/plant, so yield was decent too.

next run will be a side by side comparison; 6 in supersoil, 6 plant based


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## blueJ (May 31, 2012)

Anything new and fantastic happening in the veganics world?? Anyone trying out new products/techniques?

Isn't floralicious a vegan organic bottled nute? i think that's what i see at the shop, but i never hear anyone using it, maybe i'm wrong...

WitchDoctor, you're always having bright fucking ideas on these boards, what strains are you smokin/growin?  I really like that one with expanding your coco brick with tea, fuckin' brilliant! haha, why hasn't anyone else mentioned to do that, and weren't you the one with the N worms and a seperate bin for the PK? Any update on that?


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## + WitchDoctor + (May 31, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Anything new and fantastic happening in the veganics world?? Anyone trying out new products/techniques?
> 
> Isn't floralicious a vegan organic bottled nute? i think that's what i see at the shop, but i never hear anyone using it, maybe i'm wrong...
> 
> WitchDoctor, you're always having bright fucking ideas on these boards, what strains are you smokin/growin?  I really like that one with expanding your coco brick with tea, fuckin' brilliant! haha, why hasn't anyone else mentioned to do that, and weren't you the one with the N worms and a seperate bin for the PK? Any update on that?


Ahh thanks Blue! I started a journal, but I've gotta get some pics tomorrow before I publish it, and repotted the some OG Kush and some White Rhinos. Right after I dumped 5 gallons of compost tea and 5 gallons of RO water over 2 bales to start my mix haha.  And I know, I think I've been smoking myself SMARTER lately lol.

I'm gonna flip them in a week. I'm going to do a side-by-side with 2 OG Kush getting 5 ml of Humboldt Natural Bloom as my P boost getting 5 ml for week 2-3 after flip and 7.5 ml weeks 4-5, and 2 OG Kush getting just compost tea with the high PK compost my little guys have been working on for me for the P boost. I don't know if it's going to be enough, but I still don't have enough compost to actually mix it into the soil mix yet, as I've only had this bin going for like 5 or 6 weeks. I'm just super excited to try "something" lol.

But I mean shit, I know for a fact I'm getting N in my teas from using alfalfa, and we know using guanos in teas is more effective than mixing it or top dressing....so I feel like even if I don't get as good of a yield with the 2 getting tea I'll at least have a starting point for how much compost I think should be mixed into the soil for next time. 

And then I guess I'll do a side-by-side with the Rhinos as well, but I'll give two of them the Natty Bloom and two of them a tea with just straight up high PK ashes, instead of compost. If the worm-compost idea doesn't work the way I think it will, hopefully this will.

But yea, I should be able to catch up and get that journal posted tomorrow...just don't wanna half ass it since I've been talking about it so much lol.


Oh, and yea floralicious is vegan, and I think it's just about as organic as most of the GO line. I've never used it.

Have any of you guys tried your hand at grafting two strains together? I watched a video on it the other day, looks really easy surprisingly. I've never kept mother plants because it's so inconvenient, I just take some cuttings before I flip. But I'm thinking about making a mother with 4 or 5 different strains on her and keeping CFLs on her to keep her from growing fast.

Any thoughts anybody? BlueJ? I know this isn't the advanced technique forum or whatever, but we're bored right? Lol.


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## Dank Raptor (Jun 1, 2012)

Biocanna is no longer available in California. I have called everywhere online selling it and they all tell me they are out and won't be getting anymore in. Anyone know where I can get a 5 liter jug of Flores?


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 1, 2012)

Michigan...


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## blueJ (Jun 1, 2012)

dank raptor - not true - biocanna has only been pulled from shelves for relabeling........unless they've all been lying to me lol, wouldn't surprise me ha! 

In socal i go to green coast hydro, they had a few on the shelves and they said the rep wasn't back with the bulk of their products relabled, one on the shelf happened to be the big brown jug of flores...


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## blueJ (Jun 1, 2012)

lookin' forward to seeing some of your side by sides witchdoctor! Soon i will be able to dedicate more time to actually documenting and experimenting etc.. I've been running a sour bubble clone for a year now, on mom # 2, i can't seem to bonsai them for ages like others, so i will be able to see what a crop on GO biothrive produces vs. all my prior biocanna runs.

I've seen and read up on the grafting and know of others doing it successfully with 3 or four strains on the same mom, again, something i would love to try myself down the road. Just don't forget to carefully label which one is which! I mixed up two phenos recently and have a whole crop that suprised the hell out of me  been keeping a mom of the wrong one this whole time ha!


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## Daemonn789 (Jun 1, 2012)

Wonder about genetic stability over time from the grafting... I don't know enough to comment!


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## blueJ (Jun 1, 2012)

Don't know if anyone's had grafted cannabis long enough to factually comment on that! Theoretically it shouldn't be any different than keeping regular moms once established.....

WitchDR, i meant to ask, what OGK are you running, seed or clone, & are you happy with it? I've been meaning to add an OG to my lineup, patients always request, but i refuse to buy clones as i don't know anyone/place that i trust, and at the same time i don't know what seeds are reputable. i was thinking of trying one of the reserva privada OG18? Or this one on seedbay called Flamethrower OG (white fire x fire OG.... i think))


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jun 1, 2012)

blueJ said:


> lookin' forward to seeing some of your side by sides witchdoctor! Soon i will be able to dedicate more time to actually documenting and experimenting etc.. I've been running a sour bubble clone for a year now, on mom # 2, i can't seem to bonsai them for ages like others, so i will be able to see what a crop on GO biothrive produces vs. all my prior biocanna runs.
> 
> I've seen and read up on the grafting and know of others doing it successfully with 3 or four strains on the same mom, again, something i would love to try myself down the road. Just don't forget to carefully label which one is which! I mixed up two phenos recently and have a whole crop that suprised the hell out of me  been keeping a mom of the wrong one this whole time ha!


I just did that with wonder woman lol. I had 3 phenos and two were awesome and I accidentally only saved clones from the one I didn't like lol.



blueJ said:


> Don't know if anyone's had grafted cannabis long enough to factually comment on that! Theoretically it shouldn't be any different than keeping regular moms once established.....
> 
> WitchDR, i meant to ask, what OGK are you running, seed or clone, & are you happy with it? I've been meaning to add an OG to my lineup, patients always request, but i refuse to buy clones as i don't know anyone/place that i trust, and at the same time i don't know what seeds are reputable. i was thinking of trying one of the reserva privada OG18? Or this one on seedbay called Flamethrower OG (white fire x fire OG.... i think))


I got a OG Kush, Blue Dream, and Strawberry Cough clone right before they outlawed dispensaries in MI. I'm pretty sure they were all from feminized seed, because they Strawberry cough keeps showing pistils in veg, without any stress or light change....so I'm not breeding with them...

But the OG and the Blue Dream clones have performed spectacular for me. I'm very happy with both. And I just started smoking the Blue Dream, it is SOOOO appropriately named, I love it. I'm gonna harvest the OG next week, it'll be the first ones, they look pretty good, I'll post some pics. The buds aren't huge but I hear they aren't supposed to be. I've hardly been using any phosphates, more out of laziness than anything lol, that 0 10 0 is annoying to work with.

I heard it was a really sensitive strain and gave growers problems, but I fed double strength with teas just like the rest of them, and I didn't do any special research or anything, so I think it's just a plant that doesn't wanna be grown with chemicals and likes to put up a fight


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 1, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> I just did that with wonder woman lol. I had 3 phenos and two were awesome and I accidentally only saved clones from the one I didn't like lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure what part of the state you're in, but there are still dispensaries around.


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## Dank Raptor (Jun 1, 2012)

blueJ said:


> dank raptor - not true - biocanna has only been pulled from shelves for relabeling........unless they've all been lying to me lol, wouldn't surprise me ha!
> 
> In socal i go to green coast hydro, they had a few on the shelves and they said the rep wasn't back with the bulk of their products relabled, one on the shelf happened to be the big brown jug of flores...


 I hope that is true. What I was told by a sales rep was that California demanded info about the ingredients from BioCanna. BioCanna refused to give them the recipe because it is a trade secret. I was told that California will no longer stock them and possibly the whole US is next. If you got to their website and try to find a retailer it lists every state except California now. This leads me to believe that what I was told was true.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jun 1, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Not sure what part of the state you're in, but there are still dispensaries around.


I don't mind going to a few in Ann Arbor, but it's harder to get clones now...probably less people willing to donate I guess. But I have one of them on my facebook, and every time I see them post that they have some that I'd want, they're gone already by the time I see it. And I'm on my computer half the day lol.

I offered 24 ever 2 weeks to one, and they don't even said they don't even wanna mess with clones anymore.

But I kinda like growing from seed now. I like the idea that my Jilly Bean seeds I just germinated a few weeks ago came from an organic breeder, and will always be organic when I get them...but that's probably obsessive.

I'm sure they're gonna get enough signatures to get it on the ballot in November though...let's just hope enough people are tired of watching their kids get locked up for smoking a plant.


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 1, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> I don't mind going to a few in Ann Arbor, but it's harder to get clones now...probably less people willing to donate I guess. But I have one of them on my facebook, and every time I see them post that they have some that I'd want, they're gone already by the time I see it. And I'm on my computer half the day lol.
> 
> I offered 24 ever 2 weeks to one, and they don't even said they don't even wanna mess with clones anymore.
> 
> ...


Yeah, clone availability is spotty at most places and honestly there are very few that I'd trust anyhow. Starting from seed is always nice when possible, that way you can pick the mother _you_ want and keep that around. 

On the ballot initiative, I really don't know what I'm going to do. Without careful foresight something like that can have a lot of unintended consequences, I'd hate to see big ag type companies come in and push price over quality. I could see large companies with massive resources pushing a lot of small time people out of business, narrowing the gene pool available, and using unsustainable agricultural methods to produce the cannabis. 

For myself I think that de-criminalizing is the way to go that gives everyone easy access but avoids a lot of the pitfalls that a shortsighted legalization measure could come with. I always try to keep in mind the old adage; _be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. _


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jun 2, 2012)

To be honest, I can't even imagine how the FED is going to take it if more than one state goes for it. I mean, they could just police the shit out of one state if they wanted to, but 3 or 4 or 5 states would probably be a bit of a pickle for them. 

But yea, I actually have fun finding out what phenotypes I like, I had no idea before that it was common to get 2 or 3 phenos out of 5 seeds.


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 2, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> To be honest, I can't even imagine how the FED is going to take it if more than one state goes for it. I mean, they could just police the shit out of one state if they wanted to, but 3 or 4 or 5 states would probably be a bit of a pickle for them.
> 
> But yea, I actually have fun finding out what phenotypes I like, I had no idea before that it was common to get 2 or 3 phenos out of 5 seeds.


I think the reason you see so much variation in phenotype these days is because the bulk of the "breeders" out there are nothing more than pollen chuckers, using little if any selection methods, and the same goes for testing. It's all about a quick buck these days.


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## Dank Raptor (Jun 2, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> For myself I think that de-criminalizing is the way to go that gives everyone easy access but avoids a lot of the pitfalls that a shortsighted legalization measure could come with. I always try to keep in mind the old adage; _be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. _


Finally someone with some sense. Decriminalize don't legalize. If u think you can compete with corporate America your a joke. The price per pound won't even cover your electricity costs if marijuana is legalized.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jun 2, 2012)

Dank Raptor said:


> Finally someone with some sense. Decriminalize don't legalize. If u think you can compete with corporate America your a joke. The price per pound won't even cover your electricity costs if marijuana is legalized.


Oh, I'm not growing for any kind of profit, but yea I guess I could see how that would hurt people who are. I forget sometimes that there's a big difference between legalization and decriminalization. I guess my mind just tells me that it's not possible to be a criminal for 12 years and then just suddenly not be a criminal anymore...I mean, do I get an apology letter from the courts? Lol.

I definitely don't want big business to be able to profit off of Cannabis though, they absolutely don't deserve to. So I guess I'm for decriminalization as well.


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## dickkhead (Jun 2, 2012)

Yea there's no competing if it does get legalized! Philip Morris bought a 100 acres in California in the anticipation of the legalization of grass


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## NightbirdX (Jun 3, 2012)

Good to see some buzz on here from my time away. About the biocanna dilemma, i am already looking for a suitable replacement for it. It is too inconsistent and soft even in an organic soil run. The only thing I find it good for is the Potassium. I supplement for everything else or add it to my soil. Thinking about tryin GO, botanicare, or The NN line. I also have. Batch of supersoil ready to go that I may throw in there. 


In the end, BioCanna is a good idea, but very incomPlete. I end up using more NN nitrogen, and Budswell than flores, so why use it isn't all I guess. And their customer service is on par with Hell's. I think they outsource it to India, Lol


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## Dank Raptor (Jun 3, 2012)

I decided to switch them over to Earth juice. I also am tired of Bio Cannas incompleteness. Also, they are taxin a little too much for those jugs. Anyone here grown with Earth juice?


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm stickin with the Flores, it's not as bad if I buy 5 liters...but I'm floored about how much I'm going to save using the Bio Bud instead of the Bio Boost.

Lol about their customer service. I always send emails, I get anxiety trying to talk to people in India.

If tried GO, but if anyone finds a vegan nute to replace vega and flores that's also OMRI and has good results, I'm open to trying it for sure.


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## Kalyx (Jun 3, 2012)

> Dank RaptorI decided to switch them over to Earth juice. I also am tired of Bio Cannas incompleteness. Also, they are taxin a little too much for those jugs. Anyone here grown with Earth juice?​


Good call DR. Especially if you take this guys word (and both qualitative and quantitative data) for it. This detailed! Nutrient Report comparison (and of course this thread) is what convinced me to take the plunge into the expensive BioCanna line. Awesome reference and good additive discussion IMO. Earth juice holds its own tho and is the only one that yields a higher brix reading than BioCanna. I personally haven't tried it YET. Also lots of info regarding GO vs. all the rest too. Great reading @

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/finding-my-nutes-nutrient-report.14969/


Danks SO MUCH to BayArea for 1) PAYING ATTENTION TO DETAILS 2)KEEPING TRACK OF THEM 3)POSTING this kind of detailed side by side testing for all of us to learn from! TONS of +++REP! It motivates me to document and share more effectively!

I already have the Biomin Ca and Mg(plus Fulvic) additives ordered up and my shop is now stocking them because they are affordable and OMRI. Plus we wont have to use any NN or other N boosters (I've been running Nitrex and it works well) as the Biomins contain nitrogen as well. NICE!

Do you think we can yield well doing organic vegan or what? I've seen it done by Matt although he states he's a quality over quantity grower like myself.


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## Dank Raptor (Jun 3, 2012)

Kalyx that article is great. Written by someone who is truly on top of their game.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jun 3, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> Do you think we can yield well doing organic vegan or what? I've seen it done by Matt although he states he's a quality over quantity grower like myself.


I'm not there yet. I've been averaging 400 grams under 600 watts with no light mover...and I use to average around 450...and my techniques are better now. But I'm hardly using phosphates to be honest.

By the way...my pot has been tasting more like candy lately. I started using 75% coco in my mix in the winter, but I also started using homemade compost sources in my teas around the same time, and they smell very very sweet usually. I've heard that growing in coco can make it taste like coco, but I assume that only applies to plants touching the coco. Anybody have thoughts? Maybe from using less rock phosphate?


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 4, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> Do you think we can yield well doing organic vegan or what? I've seen it done by Matt although he states he's a quality over quantity grower like myself.


Personally, I generally do pretty well in the yield dept using the GO lineup with a few other additives. This latest crop excluded (I had a lazy spell) I average between 1-1.25 gpw. Quality is pretty much second to none. It can be done.


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## trichmasta (Jun 4, 2012)

I'm gonna do a side by side comparison with what i ran this time and supersoil, 6 ladies in each  No complaints with any aspect, just wanna compare growth, costs, resin glands, etc, to bring my patients the best quality medicine possible!! 

VEG-NN line(N,P,K) Organa ADD, Hygrozyme, a.c.t, 
Flower-All the above +CaMg, Soluble Seaweed, and Humboldt Bloom 0-10-0


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jun 4, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Personally, I generally do pretty well in the yield dept using the GO lineup with a few other additives. This latest crop excluded (I had a lazy spell) I average between 1-1.25 gpw. Quality is pretty much second to none. It can be done.


Jeez, I've gotta try harder, that's awesome. To be honest I didn't even think we could break 1 gpw without a better P source or guanos.


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 4, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> Jeez, I've gotta try harder, that's awesome. To be honest I didn't even think we could break 1 gpw without a better P source or guanos.


Sure you can. I start with a fairly well amended soil mix and use the GO as a supplement when the plants start telling me they need it. Canopy control is vital to good wpf numbers though, along with a good environment.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jun 4, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Sure you can. I start with a fairly well amended soil mix and use the GO as a supplement when the plants start telling me they need it. Canopy control is vital to good wpf numbers though, along with a good environment.


Yea, you know I got so into my soil and making compost and shit the last few months I haven't even concerned myself with canopy a whole lot. And I haven't been pruning as good as I can either. Still though, you're the man for pulling that much per watt. That'll be my goal for the next round of Blue Dreams and Strawberry Coughs I've got vegging, 1gpw.

Are you using light movers? I just (almost) finished my two side by side rooms...so that I can do all my side by sides in controlled environments. They're both 7'x4'x7. I'm gonna get run 12 plants in each (Mr. Schuette will be so pleased) as soon as I can get the light movers with 600 in one room and 1000 in the other and see if 600 gets the job done. Here's a few pics almost finished. I'm happy so far. 
View attachment 2199424View attachment 2199425View attachment 2199426View attachment 2199427View attachment 2199428


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 5, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> Yea, you know I got so into my soil and making compost and shit the last few months I haven't even concerned myself with canopy a whole lot. And I haven't been pruning as good as I can either. Still though, you're the man for pulling that much per watt. That'll be my goal for the next round of Blue Dreams and Strawberry Coughs I've got vegging, 1gpw.
> 
> Are you using light movers? I just (almost) finished my two side by side rooms...so that I can do all my side by sides in controlled environments. They're both 7'x4'x7. I'm gonna get run 12 plants in each (Mr. Schuette will be so pleased) as soon as I can get the light movers with 600 in one room and 1000 in the other and see if 600 gets the job done. Here's a few pics almost finished. I'm happy so far.
> View attachment 2199424View attachment 2199425View attachment 2199426View attachment 2199427View attachment 2199428


Yeah, last time around I got lazy with pruning/shaping and my yield suffered greatly. I guess it's easy to get comfortable when you think things are going well. Usually the only time I get to 1.25gpw or over is when I SCROG, which I honestly may not do anymore. I recently added onto my space, and don't know yet if the extra yield is worth the headache. We'll see how it goes. 

I don't use movers, but I probably should. I've thought about it, and even bought one but never installed the thing just because of the PITA of having to redo ventilation. And as for our friendly neighborhood AG, he can go die in a fire for all I care. I hate him so much... "pot profiteers", "they've hijacked this system", blah blah blah, fuck him and his trampling on our liberty. Fuck Shuette.

Your setup looks good though. Good luck.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jun 5, 2012)

A fire would be too good for him.

And thanks. I ordered some magnet snaps I'm gonna throw in every 12 inches on the bottom and tape them in with hvac tape..to hopefully keep mites out better and run my co2 more efficiently. That's another issue is I haven't been using co2 for 2 months while working on tents, so I probably haven't been getting enough fresh air to them lately.

However, my OGs and White Rhinos got a little over 18" in veg and I needed to flip them today, so I tried a little LST kinda deal by tying down some of the longer branches to the bottom ring of the tomato cage and I put them under 12/12. I'm hoping I'll be able to fill out the middle of each cage with flowers, instead of just having like 8-10 colas in it. We'll see.


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## Kalyx (Jun 5, 2012)

> + WitchDoctor +
> Are you using light movers? I just (almost) finished my two side by side rooms...so that I can do all my side by sides in controlled environments. They're both 7'x4'x7. I'm gonna get run 12 plants in each (Mr. Schuette will be so pleased) as soon as I can get the light movers with 600 in one room and 1000 in the other and see if 600 gets the job done. Here's a few pics almost finished. I'm happy so far.​


Thanks for helping motivate me witchD. I have a new bloom room to build and it will be 7'x4'x9+'. I can't wait to have more headroom than a tent! I have been loathe to get started but now my Island Sweet Skunks are blasting off in veg and need to be flipped. Your side by side setup looks ideal, nice work! How much light for each? Just one lamp on a mover in each one? My plan is three 600s on a light rail down the middle. I will probably run 2 when its hot and 3 when I can get better temps. I dream of having a real side by side grow like you built, weed nerds need good data!


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jun 5, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> Thanks for helping motivate me witchD. I have a new bloom room to build and it will be 7'x4'x9+'. I can't wait to have more headroom than a tent! I have been loathe to get started but now my Island Sweet Skunks are blasting off in veg and need to be flipped. Your side by side setup looks ideal, nice work! How much light for each? Just one lamp on a mover in each one? My plan is three 600s on a light rail down the middle. I will probably run 2 when its hot and 3 when I can get better temps. I dream of having a real side by side grow like you built, weed nerds need good data!


Yea I kinda motivated myself as well lol. I was slumpin around for a couple weeks and now I've been up to all kinds of shit the last few days...maybe it's Blue Dream 

I've got 1 600 in each room for right now, haven't gotten the movers yet, probably not till next month. I'm covering a 4'x4' area with it for now. I just put 9 plants in there, the OGs and the Rhinos I'm using for my side by sides. I'll have to wait a couple months to actually use the rooms to do the side by sides, timing and all. I was actually kinda inspired by Wolverine's yields on veganics and I'm gonna try and push myself a little now. I'm gonna hook the co2 back up this weekend, and today instead of letting the 6-8 taller branches grow up and be colas, I kinda LSTed them to the lower ring of the tomato cage and flipped them like that. I'm gonna leave them like that for at least a week and hopefull get some more vertical growth out of them. 
View attachment 2200820View attachment 2200821View attachment 2200822

I'll start a journal tomorrow for the high P tea thing I'm trying out. It looks like the compost might just BARELY be ready in time...

And yes, weed nerds definitely need good data. I need to find a rich weed nerd with money to pay for me to get my nerd weed tested all the time lol. 

I have 3 600s in the other bloom room, which is now the room we use to stretch out the plants we juice, It's 10x3, and it's been more than enough, so I would say for a 7'x4'x9' room you'd have more than enough coverage with 600s covering the 7' and the light mover traveling the 4'. In fact...maybe when I get another 1000w system I'll try out the 1000w on one side and two 600s on the other, both with movers...

I need to make a house payment soon, before they take away all my fun...

EDIT: https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/534217-first-shot-using-teas-worm.html


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## Kalyx (Jun 6, 2012)

> + WitchDoctor +
> I'll start a journal tomorrow for the high P tea thing I'm trying out. It looks like the compost might just BARELY be ready in time...​




I checked it out. Plants look healthy and I can't wait to hear how it goes.



> And yes, weed nerds definitely need good data. I need to find a rich weed nerd with money to pay for me to get my nerd weed tested all the time lol.


Do you have a refroactometer? Brix readings are a good (and easy enough to take, especially if you already JUICE) indicator of overall plant health. It would be a sweet addition to any side by side data. They are very commonly used in the wine, fruit, greenhouse, etc. industry. I got mine recently on the CHEAP at the local shop because they have had 3 for YEARS with zero interest. They still have one plus the demo... a decades supply in this town!​


> I have 3 600s in the other bloom room, which is now the room we use to stretch out the plants we juice, It's 10x3, and it's been more than enough, so I would say for a 7'x4'x9' room you'd have more than enough coverage with 600s covering the 7' and the light mover traveling the 4'. In fact...maybe when I get another 1000w system I'll try out the 1000w on one side and two 600s on the other, both with movers...​


I know those 2 6s would slay a single thouie! Especially on movers, NO need to run that comparison. Clarification; you would move the lamps along the 4'run instead of the 7'run? Ideally id like to purchase another hood and run 4X600 with two parallel light rails moving along the 7' run, a pair of 6s on each rail moving in a checkerboard style array. (not right next to each other but staggered) Better get going on this...


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jun 6, 2012)

Yea, I figure the two 600s would cover the 7' length nicely, especially with the lights being in a series. So the mover could just travel a foot in the other direction to cover the 4' better. That's exactly what I'll do when I get another 1000w for the other room. Oh, and a clarification on my end as well, I've never used light movers. Lol. But I can't see how they wouldn't help in a situation where I'm not going to add more watts either way.

I'll look into getting a refroactometer. Sounds neat.


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## 'ome Grown (Jun 7, 2012)

IMO, the refractometer seems like a bit of a waste of time. I use one regularly as I brew beer, it is used to measure how much sugar is in a given liquid....well, it really measure how much the light bends in the liquid, which is an indication of how much sugar is in a given liquid - however, there are many variables, temperature being one of them. Vineyards use them to measure ripeness of fruit...so I just can't seem to think of a good enough reason to use this when trichome colour is already a good enough way to measure ripeness...

Cheers


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jun 7, 2012)

'ome Grown said:


> IMO, the refractometer seems like a bit of a waste of time. I use one regularly as I brew beer, it is used to measure how much sugar is in a given liquid....well, it really measure how much the light bends in the liquid, which is an indication of how much sugar is in a given liquid - however, there are many variables, temperature being one of them. Vineyards use them to measure ripeness of fruit...so I just can't seem to think of a good enough reason to use this when trichome colour is already a good enough way to measure ripeness...
> 
> Cheers


I don't know much about them, but I just found this  

"For medical marijuana, the goal is to maintain a Brix level of 10% or higher. A plant with readings below 10% is not performing up to its ability and is more prone to pests and disease. Plants with a 10% brix reading or higher will have natural immunities to stress, pests and disease. A noticed drop in Brix could mean a stress or problem is about to occur and can give the gardener a heads up allowing them to prevent problems. Milwaukee&#8217;s MR32 Sugar Refractometer is an easy to use and relatively inexpensive device that will help you in monitoring your plant&#8217;s overall health."
​So it looks like it's more of a tool for telling when my plant isn't being the kind of producer she could be, before she's done producing even. This seems like it could be a beneficial tool to have if I can get one cheap like Kalyx mentioned. I could take off a fan leaf 4 weeks into flower and possible find out things like if I can feed harder, or give more P, and so on.

I need to get a better microscope for sure first though, instead of the active air garbage lol. I want one of those USB ones that will just magnify right to my laptop screen.


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## Kalyx (Jun 7, 2012)

> 'ome GrownIMO, the refractometer seems like a bit of a waste of time. I use one regularly as I brew beer, it is used to measure how much sugar is in a given liquid....well, it really measure how much the light bends in the liquid, which is an indication of how much sugar is in a given liquid - however, there are many variables, temperature being one of them. Vineyards use them to measure ripeness of fruit...so I just can't seem to think of a good enough reason to use this when trichome colour is already a good enough way to measure ripeness...​


Interesting post, let me clarify for you how the refractometer is used in gardening. After all we are not brewing ale here. In brewing the refractometer tells you when your yeasts have consumed the sugars present in the mash, ie to tell you when the brew is complete.

The refractometer has a very useful place in a data driven garden. It does NOT tell us when our plants are ripe, instead like witchdoctor pointed out, the brix levels are used as an indicator of overall plant health. It can also be used to compare fruit sugar content in industries where this is sought. (personally I think sweetness is overated in bud, I prefer other flavor combos) I was just telling another weed nerd that I thought brix data would be useful for generating quantitative comparisons during side by side testing. The real nice thing about brix data is that you can compare plant health as the plants grow not just by killing and smoking them to compare. We are a little beyond the "when to harvest" discussion in this thread, it seems like most here are competent in all the basics and working on dialing in the details.

Also another interesting reason to pay attention to / up your brix numbers is to ward off pests. (mites perhaps witchdoctor?). Basically all plant pests lack the digestive components required to completely break down and digest sugars (analogous to the human liver.) It is IMPOSSIBLE for pests to get going on tissues with high enough brix levels. They can eat, but cannot process the sugar-rich fluids so they basically gorge themselves to death and gain no nutrition from all the effort. I like doing this to avoid pests, healthy plants basically defend themselves. Its always the lame plant in the back of the canopy that they get a foothold on...If they are all thriving then no worries, even outdoors!


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 7, 2012)

Nice post Kalyx, well said.


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## 'ome Grown (Jun 7, 2012)

Yo kaylx, thanks for the response.

Firstly, alcohol skews the reading of a refractometer, so isn't used after yeast is present...only before. Sort of checking up to see what efficiency your mash is running at. My viticulture friends use them to test the level of ripeness in their berries so they know the best time to harvest.

Secondly, I've used 4 refractometers to take one reading and gotten slightly different results. If you do have a refrac, take a reading of something 3 times 10 mins apart...for proper readings of sugar levels that I've found to be accurate is a hydrometer.

I have sprayed my plants in the past with a molasses spray purely to increase the brix's level so that they are 'dressed' as healthy plants (and then not sort out by predators).

If it does have use for you guys, then great. Having quantitative data could support current observations... 

Maybe it could be used to see if one plant is taking up more nutrients than another plant in a hydro set up or something...


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jun 7, 2012)

Yea, I think Kalyx is actually a weed genius posing as a weed nerd. 

I actually just read the other day too that using worm castings/compost in teas and in the soil mix increases production of an enzyme or something that makes the plants less susceptible to mite or other pest attacks, so I could probably learn more about that and grab one of those bad boys to start testing it. 

All of the stuff I just harvested tastes much sweeter than usual. Even the OG Kush, while kind of fuely, still has a sweetness to it. It's gotta be from the teas...And this was also my first harvest in over a year where I didn't get at least a few spider mites by the end.


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## Kalyx (Jun 8, 2012)

My all AACT agent orange plants WAY outflavored GO fed ones last winter (and yielded higher too.) There are pics in a previous post in this thread. The overall bouquet was enhanced in 2 major ways 1. More flavors came out of the genetics and were an amazing mix for the senses. In this particular strain I got serious enhancement of the sour end of the flavor spectrum. (non lemon-lime sweet orangey citrus on top, creamy funk, and then mouth watering sour tones to finish) 2. The intensity of each flavor was also increased, as well as much more resin production overall. The AACT flowers were slightly smaller but weighed in more due to the extra layer of resin.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jun 8, 2012)

That's good to hear. I'm going to order some Agent Orange seeds. Last time I tried to order them they were out. I've got some feminized Cannatonic (they were out of regular) and some Jilly Bean seedlings that I just put under the metal halide. And some free Lemonese seedlings as well, I'm sure I'll like anything with Lemon in the name.

I can't wait to try the Jilly Bean. And I'm expecting the Cannatonic to be life-changing, so it fucking better be.


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## malignant (Jun 9, 2012)

refractometers are great if your growing cuttings from the same plant run after run. that way you always know where the peak should be.


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## trichmasta (Jun 17, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> My all AACT agent orange plants WAY outflavored GO fed ones last winter (and yielded higher too.) There are pics in a previous post in this thread. The overall bouquet was enhanced in 2 major ways 1. More flavors came out of the genetics and were an amazing mix for the senses. In this particular strain I got serious enhancement of the sour end of the flavor spectrum. (non lemon-lime sweet orangey citrus on top, creamy funk, and then mouth watering sour tones to finish) 2. The intensity of each flavor was also increased, as well as much more resin production overall. The AACT flowers were slightly smaller but weighed in more due to the extra layer of resin.


I noticed the same...i just finished my first run in years and it was completely plant based regimen with AACT's!!! Resin and brix levels are thru the roof!!! Now back to trimming...


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## Satanicbongripper (Jun 18, 2012)

Thanks for the information.


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## Kalyx (Jun 22, 2012)

So someone asked in another thread for another term for dabbing: I figured I would post it here too cause this is where I learned to DAB. Danks, Matt. RIZE UP!

We say torching as a synonym for dabbing at my house.

Bubbler, Joint or Torch (my JBD turned into my dabbing rig)? Is the usual question.

Our Bubbler lives in the fridge(by coloraddicts), Joints are rolled with club glueless papes, and the dabs are only IWE round these parts. Yes, I am a weed nerd/snob.

I always answer torch EVERY time!  Unfortunately I do more asking than choosing. 

Oh yeah its all VEGANIC cannabis resins now since I found this thread and a local shop got CANNA. Yields a bit down but I am HIGHER than ever. Quality Control!


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## Matt Rize (Jul 4, 2012)

im not dead or locked up! just without internet at the ranch...
[video=youtube;GTz17WKLZuI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTz17WKLZuI[/video]


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## iamAK47 (Jul 5, 2012)

Someone mentioned before earlier in the thread that they were gonna sum up the thread or atleast all the importent posts into a doc or pdf. Was wondering if it has been done bcuz my internet here were am at right now is realy slow so cant browse all the pages. Would appreciatet it

Much love


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jul 5, 2012)

iamAK47 said:


> Someone mentioned before earlier in the thread that they were gonna sum up the thread or atleast all the importent posts into a doc or pdf. Was wondering if it has been done bcuz my internet here were am at right now is realy slow so cant browse all the pages. Would appreciatet it
> 
> Much love


Yes, it's a sticky as well in the organic section. At the bottom of the stickys I believe, below this one.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Jul 7, 2012)

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## Wolverine97 (Jul 7, 2012)

Looking good man.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jul 7, 2012)

Yes, beautiful.


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## trichmasta (Jul 11, 2012)

Hey riu veganic heads!! What the consensus on ph ing? Last run i didn't and had a slight mg deficiency in flower due to low ph...it was only in 1 strain, but still.

So should i constanly ph, ph starting mid veg-late veg, or add a camg throughout??


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## Kalyx (Jul 11, 2012)

I have done 2 complete rize up veganic grows. The one I pHed (I use ro so nutes took it below 5 and I used ej natural up) eventually got above 7 runoff at the end. The second one I didn't pH at all and it ran off at 6.1-6.3 no matter what the input pH (nute waterings were very low and my AACT tends to come out higher pH due to bacteria I think). It was easier and better pH wise on my second run. I still think its a good idea to test runoff pH just to make sure the bennies have it where cannabis wants it.

Edit: I run GO camg at 2.5ml/gal in veg and up it to 5ml/gal in bloom. I also add lime to my mix. (RO water) i taper of the camg in late bloom


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## smang (Jul 12, 2012)

Alright so i'm looking for a vegan soil mix, bagged or not.
I want to do a side by side grow with Supersoil and then a vegan mix.
Anyone have any soil mixes they care to share?


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## boarderofsnow (Jul 12, 2012)

smang said:


> Alright so i'm looking for a vegan soil mix, bagged or not.
> I want to do a side by side grow with Supersoil and then a vegan mix.
> Anyone have any soil mixes they care to share?


I've been using Bio Canna for a while now and I've had the best success with a humus rich bagged soil such as Happy Frog or Ocean Forest. I amend with Dolomite Lime and a great local compost mix. I also use GO CaMg+


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## Bird Gymnastics (Jul 12, 2012)

I use promix BX...add a little perlite, kelp meal, EWC and neem cake. Seems to work wonders with my biocanna line


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## boarderofsnow (Jul 14, 2012)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> I use promix BX...add a little perlite, kelp meal, EWC and neem cake. Seems to work wonders with my biocanna line


Huh, I'm surprised it works with promix. I tried it on sunshine #4 advanced with is similar to promix and it didn't work well.

Talked with Canna and the said that the Substra line was for that style soil and biocanna was intended for a humus rich, well composted soil.
After switching it made a HUGE difference. So much more nutrient friendly and much better yield.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Jul 14, 2012)

boarderofsnow said:


> Huh, I'm surprised it works with promix. I tried it on sunshine #4 advanced with is similar to promix and it didn't work well.
> 
> Talked with Canna and the said that the Substra line was for that style soil and biocanna was intended for a humus rich, well composted soil.
> After switching it made a HUGE difference. So much more nutrient friendly and much better yield.


I guess I cheat. I use compost teas in first week and 3-4th week of flower. Never used humus in my soil but I can imagine how much better it will make. What type of yields are you looking at? I average 6-750grams per light (1k watt HPS) with my "low yielding" strains like white fire, SFV OG and la confidential.

My reason behind not using happy frog or ocean forest is I am not 100% vegan organic. If I'm gonna drop the dollar on canna I want to get my monies worth  you just have to supplement it right or amend your soil properly. But I will post pictures once I harvest...expecting 50 zips for 2k watts.


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## Kalyx (Jul 14, 2012)

> smangAlright so i'm looking for a vegan soil mix, bagged or not.
> I want to do a side by side grow with Supersoil and then a vegan mix.
> Anyone have any soil mixes they care to share?​


My mix that I use with veganic growing is not itself vegan. BlueJ has a post your soil(less) mix thread in organics and he does list his vegan soil mix.



> Bird GymnasticsI use promix BX...add a little perlite, kelp meal, EWC and neem cake. Seems to work wonders with my biocanna line ​


Bird G your garden looks great. What size containers do you run and how hard/often are you feeding the biocanna to get them to thrive like that? It looks like your yield will be stellar which has not been my experience on my first two biocanna runs.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Jul 14, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> My mix that I use with veganic growing is not itself vegan. BlueJ has a post your soil(less) mix thread in organics and he does list his vegan soil mix.
> 
> 
> 
> Bird G your garden looks great. What size containers do you run and how hard/often are you feeding the biocanna to get them to thrive like that? It looks like your yield will be stellar which has not been my experience on my first two biocanna runs.



I have 2different containers in there. I have a 3x3 table which I run 9.5" square pots (approximately 3 gallons) under one light (left light) and 6 5 gallon containers under the other light. I water about every other day to every 3 days (at least twice a week). I try to feed once a week but sometimes I end up feeding twice. But, in between feedings I always make sure to give them some sort of AACT or only water mixed in with hygrozyme/Cannazyme. 

This is how my basic schedule goes: (strain specific)

W1- 10ml vega, 2-5 ml Flores, 2 ml hygrozyme, 5 ml 
AACT (vegan compost, EWC, soluable seaweed, Mayan, fermented sugar cane or molasses, hygrozyme)
w2- 8ml vega, 5-8 ml Flores, 2 ml hygrozyme, 10 ml fulpower
W3- 2-5 ml vega, 8-12ml Flores, 2 ml hygrozyme, 10 ml fFulpower
AACT
W4- 10-15ml Flores, 2ml hygrozyme, 2-5ml boost
W5- 10-15 ml Flores, 2ml hygrozyme, 5 ml Fulpower, 5-10 ml boost
W6- 10-15 ml Flores, 2 ml hygrozyme, 10ml boost
W7- 5-12 ml Flores, 2 ml hygrozyme, 5-10ml boost
W8-W10- 5-10 ml boost, 2ml hygrozyme

I don't flush but I might just give it RO AND HYGROZYMe depending on how the plant is turning out.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jul 15, 2012)

smang said:


> Alright so i'm looking for a vegan soil mix, bagged or not.
> I want to do a side by side grow with Supersoil and then a vegan mix.
> Anyone have any soil mixes they care to share?


Here's what I'm using:

Dolomite lime 1 cup (I use Epsoma)
Neem cake  1 cup (http://www.neemresource.com)
Karanja cake  1 cup (http://www.neemresource.com)
Mykos  1 cup (I use Xtreme Gardening Mykos, awesome and cheap. I also reapply with their Mykos WP early flower the feeding after a good P dose. I also use Roots Oregonism on rooted cuttings.)
Coffee/tea grounds  2 cup
Greensand  1 cup

2 gallons coco chips (Im trying out coco croutons)
2 bales compressed coco coir fibers (GO Coco Tek OMRI coir)
3 gallons EWC
3 gallons worm compost

Makes about 35-40 gallons of soil. I soak the coco bales in AACT instead of plain water.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Jul 15, 2012)

smang said:


> Alright so i'm looking for a vegan soil mix, bagged or not.
> I want to do a side by side grow with Supersoil and then a vegan mix.
> Anyone have any soil mixes they care to share?


I used to start with pure coco coir and peat moss as my base but I have found almost identical results just using Promix BX. I mix my soil in percentages rather then cups. For example, if I'm filling one of my 50 gallon containers with soil, I will use 1 gallon containers as my "cup" and mix accordingly. I like to do about 20-25% EWC, so for every 4 "cups" of soil I will mix in 1 "cup" of EWC. Make sense? Lol 
So this is my mix: (w/ ProMix)
- 25% EWC
- 10% Kelp Meal
- 10% Perlite
- 5% Neem Cake

I mix approximately 1/2-1 cup great white, water it in and let it sit for about 2-4 weeks. 

My Actual mix:
- 40% Pure Coco Coir (Canna)
- 10% Peat Moss
- 20% EWC
- 15% Perlite
- 10% kelp meal
- 5% neem cake

This also gets the great white as well as a cup full of dolomite lime.


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## blueJ (Jul 22, 2012)

I didn't think they were, but most (or all) large vermicomposting companies use chicken/horse manures etc. to feed their worms (as well as green manure/compost). I had no idea until i started researching the worm business. All the more reason to have your own worm bin/farm at home so you know exactly what's in it, otherwise i wouldn't use commercial worm castings that aren't disclaiming what they feed their worms and i don't think you could call it vegan gardening or plant based when the EWC's are just vermicomposted animal shit.

I know Wiggle Worm EWC is the main brand sold in hydro/grow shops & considered excellent EWC but UNCO industries i don't think will divulge what is in their "unique" blend they feed their worms.

Anyone know of a commercially available "green compost" only worm casting?

I only bring this up because it's news to me, and when i was growing strictly plant based i made the assumption my worm castings were plant fed and I was okay with that, now that I know the BLACK GOLD brand that I was specifically using was vermicomposted chicken/horse shit I'm not so okay with that. Maybe i'm less informed than most in this department but i figured someone else might be in the same boat


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## Matt Rize (Jul 22, 2012)

This thread is kicking ass!


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## Kalyx (Jul 22, 2012)

> blueJ
> I didn't think they were, but most (or all) large vermicomposting companies use chicken/horse manures etc. to feed their worms (as well as green manure/compost). I had no idea until i started researching the worm business. All the more reason to have your own worm bin/farm at home so you know exactly what's in it, otherwise i wouldn't use commercial worm castings that aren't disclaiming what they feed their worms and i don't think you could call it vegan gardening or plant based when the EWC's are just vermicomposted animal shit.
> 
> I only bring this up because it's news to me, and when i was growing strictly plant based i made the assumption my worm castings were plant fed and I was okay with that, now that I know the BLACK GOLD brand that I was specifically using was vermicomposted chicken/horse shit I'm not so okay with that. Maybe i'm less informed than most in this department but i figured someone else might be in the same boat ​


Way to look deeper into your inputs man. Thanks for sharing what you found. 




> Matt Rize
> This thread is kicking ass!​


Looks like you have been getting that place weeded out and ready for THE weed. Will you be sticking to veganics or giving the higher organics techniques you mentioned produced better flowers than your old garden a go? Sorry cant help myself, do you top all your outdoor ladies? I didn't and they are getting near the top of the greenhouse. Caylx seems to love the new setup, doggie and dabber paradise eh!


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## Matt Rize (Jul 23, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> Way to look deeper into your inputs man. Thanks for sharing what you found.
> 
> Looks like you have been getting that place weeded out and ready for THE weed. Will you be sticking to veganics or giving the higher organics techniques you mentioned produced better flowers than your old garden a go? Sorry cant help myself, do you top all your outdoor ladies? I didn't and they are getting near the top of the greenhouse. Caylx seems to love the new setup, doggie and dabber paradise eh!


Yeah, Im doing a small potted garden this year, a bunch of Chernobyl backcrosses that we made last year... its all destined to be concentrate. The plants are guarded by the land owner's crazy ass pitbull so... no worries this year haha. But I can't garden without the land owner around cause that dog is big and crazy, already bit someone this month. So we are hiding him from the animal control people. RANCH LIFE!

The one plant in the ground, that I'm using for pics, is way smaller than the potted plants, but way healthier and easier to take care of. We are doing organic soil with vegan organic supplementation, basically my indoor system taken outdoors. Next year I'm planning on doing less plants, but putting them in 500 gallon smart pots with the bottom cut out, right into my giant organic garden that is not being used currently.


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## Dank Raptor (Jul 23, 2012)

Thats cool your growing Chernobyl backcrosses. I just got the first couple seeds off of a Chernobyl plant that I pollinated with Northern lights pollen. Im hoping to bring a bigger yield to her. The pollen is from Nirvana northern lights which is the most vigorous highest yielding plant I have ever grown.


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## Rising Moon (Jul 26, 2012)

I think the EWC debate is really interesting...

I am an avid reader/researcher on all things organic agriculture, and from everything I have read about Veganics, the "Vegan Organic Network", which certifies farms as "stock free" have a ban on using worm castings. They even have some restrictions on using plant based teas for fertilizer. It seems they want the majority of the fertility to come from the use of legume based cover crops, as well as farm produced vegetable compost.

I would love to use all these techniques on my own land, but the trouble is, I have a couple chickens and a worm bin, and I am not about to stop using/composting these wonderful, free, home produced amendments in order to fit into some label. But the underlying principal, being, that you get the majority of your fertility through cover crops and rotations, is very cool indeed.

The medical cannabis community has allot of work to do in these areas...There are literally hundreds of potential cover crop plants/compost plants to experiment with.

Lately I have been thinking about experimenting with Yellow Sweet Clover in raised beds for the outdoor crops, used in rotation, it grows for 1 1/2 seasons, gets HUGE and you can cut it multiple times a season for composting, and it also has a huge nitrogen fixing root system. After the plant dies back, the roots and all the nitrogen it fixed, will slowly rot back into the soil, creating tons of "humus pathways" for our medical plants to feed off the following season.

I am also really interested in trying a technique called undersowing. Basically that is, using small growing clovers (white dutch for instance) to create a "carpet" under the larger crops. The benefits being nitrogen fixation, and moisture conservation.

Any ever tried something like this?


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## + WitchDoctor + (Jul 27, 2012)

Anyone notice a difference in the Humboldt Natural Bloom 0-10-0 this year? The one I got last winter was gray, thick, and heavy. The one I just bought is thinner and maybe browner? Has anyone else noticed a change? I can't find anything, but I can call them on Monday if I have to.


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## Mel Senshir113 (Aug 4, 2012)

Blood meal? Bone meal? Fish emulsion? The list is long actually. Most of these products are derived from the MEAT INDUSTRY. I bury fish in my compost pile. If my daughter's cat leaves a chipmonk on the front porch as a gift...into the compost! I'm a total vegan except for the part about abstaining from dead animal matter. I eat every sort of dead animal matter there is........ from the air, the ground and the sea. There is nothing unnatural about fertalizer coming from animal sources. Manuer? Weird animal pathogens? "Cracker Please!" ~~ Mike Berbiglia!!
Mel


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## boarderofsnow (Aug 4, 2012)

Now that I've gotten used to them I love the BioCanna line. The product is consistently the best tasting and best smoking medicine I can find. This is a shot of a Jack's Cleaner II at 4.5 weeks.


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## Matt Rize (Aug 5, 2012)

Bro you are like 2100 posts behind the times. Take it somewhere else.


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## Matt Rize (Aug 6, 2012)

So nice I had to post it in here too. 
[video=youtube;-xGG-UCO0GI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xGG-UCO0GI[/video]


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## darkcloud (Aug 7, 2012)

Not sure if you're a fan of Insect Frass or not and if not how come? Seems like its something that would go well along with EWC, ect.
http://www.onfrass.com/what.html
Have you personally ever tried it?


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## darkcloud (Aug 8, 2012)

And just so you know I am not trying to be rude. You have inspired me to try a Veganic grow actually. I currently am all Organic with teas and light amount of excrement from Chicken and Seabird only, of course along with the all-natural fed EWC and now trying out Insect Frass. Would be very simple to cut out the Chicken and Seabird. Already have plenty of ideas of plant derived high Nitrogen stuff for teas. What do you recommend all naturally for Flower though? Would prefer not to use store bought. So would love it if you could enlighten me because very interested in giving this a go.
I know you do not like Perlite, same as I, so why not use Diatomite?


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## Kalyx (Aug 12, 2012)

Whattup Matt and the rest of team Veganic. 

I am super amped right now! I got to spend 6+ hours learning from Kyle Kushman at a Medical Cannabis conference called Know-Can in Albuquerque. We got his full shabang in a veganics basics and advanced techniques two part lecture. Danks a lot Kyle!

I gave him some of my veganic blackberry kush and he was surprised to see some veganic flowers in NM. I was very honored when the next day he gave me props and commented that he could tell it was veganic by both the quality and smoothness. He even reassured me that he 'wasn't blowing smoke up my a**' and that he usually takes samples and passes them on because organic is even tasting a bit harsh to him now. He lit up that big Kushman smile after sampling some 70 micron ice wax on top of a bowl of the same flowers. I felt like young annakin blazing up with yoda.

So his method is now VERY similar to Rize Up veganics with some differences. He plugged biocanna and basically using it HEAVY on top of Manna Mix plus the usual products listed earlier in this thread for NPK supplementation (NN Nitrogen, Technaflora soluble seaweed, and Humbolt Natural bloom). He recommended using tea (carbs plus soluble innoculants in pure water, he uses myco madness and OG tea) and enzymes as a base for every feeding and feeding every watering. His nutes are still in the works, his photos of plants grown on the test formula looked great. He is very positive, knowledgeable, and all about dedication of ones whole being to nurturing our gardens. Thanks for all the tips and sharing the detailed knowledge.


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## bigbang313 (Aug 14, 2012)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> I used to start with pure coco coir and peat moss as my base but I have found almost identical results just using Promix BX. I mix my soil in percentages rather then cups. For example, if I'm filling one of my 50 gallon containers with soil, I will use 1 gallon containers as my "cup" and mix accordingly. I like to do about 20-25% EWC, so for every 4 "cups" of soil I will mix in 1 "cup" of EWC. Make sense? Lol
> So this is my mix: (w/ ProMix)
> - 25% EWC
> - 10% Kelp Meal
> ...


 Im new to vegan. Do you use a vegan tea with this mix if so whats the recipe


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## stealthweed (Aug 14, 2012)

HAs anyone tried the soil?BioCanna Terra if I am not wrong, any reviews?


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## Kalyx (Aug 16, 2012)

Its awesome, just very hard to get in the USA.


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## stealthweed (Aug 17, 2012)

I know a site where I can purchase it so no problem^^I'm in Europe..I just need some reviews pls and feedback maybe some infos on the nutes how are they?Would you recommend them?Hows the taste?Do I need flush?


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## Kalyx (Aug 18, 2012)

Obviously you did not read the thread. ?'s are cool if you are willing to get caught up and not make everyone repeat themselves. Look earlier on in the thread when Matt was using and reusing the Bio Terra Plus and all your questions will be answered. This whole thread is about the answers to those questions. In short:

The nutes are high quality, based on fermented plant extracts and can be a bit weak in the micros and overall in 'pushed' garden scenarios. They need a very fortified mix and BTPlus is just that, the best thing that Matt could find with the BioCanna line. Kushman uses Manna Mix by Vital Earth's, dunno if thats in Europe yet.

Most of us use and recommend these nutes, even though they are pricey and need supplementation of micros, and NPK in high yield scenarios. The main reason is quality of finished product. The taste will be more complex, stronger and smoother than the same strain grown with pooganics. The main difference I note is the smoothness and utmost resin production. Personally I have not gotten pooganics yields with my 3 complete veganics runs.

Do you need to flush? I'll let you figure that one out for yourself, based on your definition of what a flush is and the lack of poo and synth in the veganic rootzone.


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## sippinslurpies (Aug 25, 2012)

Educate me if you will but wouldn't standard Hydro Nutes be Vegan approved? They're all chemical salts, no animal products at all.


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## blueJ (Aug 25, 2012)

"yes," but then I ask you, what "vegan" makes a habit out of consuming/using products that are chemical/synthetic?

The key terminology here is "veganics" which = vegan organics, so in that sense, no, chemical nutes are not organic therefore not veganic.


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## sippinslurpies (Aug 25, 2012)

Ive never understood "Organics" because again the chemicals that go into making Hydro nutes are "Organic Chemicals".


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## + WitchDoctor + (Aug 29, 2012)

sippinslurpies said:


> Ive never understood "Organics" because again the chemicals that go into making Hydro nutes are "Organic Chemicals".


Organic Chemical? What happens to these organic chemicals exactly? I mean, are these organic chemicals mined and put into a bottle, or is there a "chemical" or "organic chemical" process in to which they are made?

If you go by the chemical definition of the word organic then sure, hydro nutes can be considered organic because they contain carbon. But unless you can collect these mineral salts on your own and process them into fertilizer on your own without the use of additional chemicals and chemical processes, then you can't really consider it organic. I grow with compost and fermented plant extracts as my main source of nutrients. Pretty easy to see why we'd call that organic and say that hydro nutes aren't.

But if you'd really like to find out the difference, read through this thread and grab some info. And give plant-based organics a shot on a couple of your plants, once you've tasted the difference you won't be likely to go back.


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## TheOrganic (Aug 30, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> im not dead or locked up! just without internet at the ranch...
> [video=youtube;GTz17WKLZuI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTz17WKLZuI[/video]


Now my shit isn't unique its a damn copy cat cause I live nowhere close to you bro and I know were mine was made.
I'm not a big glass guy and don't know shit about it I just got this piece for oil rig mostly but damn design is the same. O'well what do ya do. It is a nice bong though with cool metalic in colors. And def thick cause I tipped a couple times falling on a slate floor...ouch but nothin. First worked piece Ive had. Ash catcher was supposed to be a parallel to piece but blower didn't custom shit just sent the same catcher I saw at store......lazy fuck.
Sry for the dirty bong pics Im outta alcohol. Peace Veganers
Also on the head of the mushroom in middle is like a red vein lines(can't see drty) and is sick hopefully there isn't a ton of those out there.


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## trichmasta (Aug 31, 2012)

Whats everyone's thoughts on humic acids? Are you using them in your current veganic regimen?


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## + WitchDoctor + (Aug 31, 2012)

trichmasta said:


> Whats everyone's thoughts on humic acids? Are you using them in your current veganic regimen?


I'm using the Bioag Fulpower. I just bought a 5 gal container of it.


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## Kalyx (Aug 31, 2012)

Humic Fulvic are great IMO. Fulvic acid is smaller molecules with more oxygen than humic acid so it really aids with nutrient uptake through cell membranes. These acids increase the uptake and 'presentation' of our liquid nutes to the microbes in the rhizosphere and the roots. I really like fulvic for foliar sprays as well. I currently run Fulvex (OMRI listed fulvic acid and micros) as my main fulvic product. 

I also recently switched from GO Cal mag to two products by SaferGro; Calcium (5%Ca) and Fulmag (0.5%Mg). The second also contains fulvic acid. I read on the web that these blew the GO stuff away at just 1/4 tsp/gallon each in a very thorough side by side. I am running the calcium closer to 2ml/gal and the fulmag at 4ml/gal and so far so good, but its really too early to tell. Its nice to have more precise control if you don't mind _another_ bottle.

Kushman recomended shooting for 3-6% Ca and 2-3%Mg depending on variety of course. This is why I decided on going a little harder than 1/4 tsp/gal on Safergro's stuff.


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## trichmasta (Sep 1, 2012)

Thanks kalyx!! Yeah I wanna take advantage of all my veganic goodness in the rhizo and provide perfect bioavailability for all my ladies to enjoy, so I thought a humic was a great soulution!! Great to here others success and products/s of choice. I've got my micros dialed with my organa add, so I'm leaning towards ful power by bio ag and hum-bolt by humboldt nutetrients. I'm a little turned off by the 20/30ml/g recommended with the ful power...that would be near 240 ml per use


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## blueJ (Sep 1, 2012)

bioAg is an excellent company with high-quality products, you don't need to use anywhere near their recommended amounts, I do 20ml/gal every other week or so, but my regular application is 3ml to 5ml/gal every other watering maybe, fulpower puts hum-bolt to shame lol, try their TM7 also for micros


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## trichmasta (Sep 1, 2012)

Good tips thanks bluej!! Gonna give the ful power a go for sure!! I use organa add as my micro, but the tm7 looks like another quality product. Also gonna add some insect frass to my brews and during transplant. Looks like a great veganic addition


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## + WitchDoctor + (Sep 5, 2012)

I use the tm-7 in my mix and Fulpower in my teas as well.


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## trichmasta (Sep 9, 2012)

Been running Natures Nectars full line with great success, but I'm almost out and considering GO?? Same price range, still vegan, ?? Considering the biothrive grow, bloom, and the biobud. 

Irievibes all!!


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## + WitchDoctor + (Sep 11, 2012)

trichmasta said:


> Been running Natures Nectars full line with great success, but I'm almost out and considering GO?? Same price range, still vegan, ?? Considering the biothrive grow, bloom, and the biobud.
> 
> Irievibes all!!


Technically the GO line would be more vegan . I recommend some of the GO line, but to be honest, I use the Bio Vega and Bio Flores because it comes out to around the same cost, maybe a little more for the Flores, and the Bio Canna just produces a better taste in the end. But I stopped using the Bio Boost because it's a ripoff and it seems like the GO Bio Bud is supposed to do the same thing for 4,000 times cheaper. I'm not using the Bio Root anymore in flower because of GMO ingredients though, just a personal concern. But I'm still using it in veg and liking it. And the CalMag is great when I don't feel like carrying in rainwater.


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## trichmasta (Sep 11, 2012)

Yeah it's for sure more vegan, and is more balanced/potent, and just a bit cheaper. Like I said, I've had success with NN, but I'm intrigued by something more complete and clean! The bio canna is just way too pricey for my budget and still needs way too much amending for me...

Edit-think I can get away with using the Humboldt bloom 0-10-0 and Soluble Seaweed instead of Biobud?? Seems like this duo would kick ass all over the biobud, plus I already have them


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## + WitchDoctor + (Sep 12, 2012)

trichmasta said:


> Yeah it's for sure more vegan, and is more balanced/potent, and just a bit cheaper. Like I said, I've had success with NN, but I'm intrigued by something more complete and clean! The bio canna is just way too pricey for my budget and still needs way too much amending for me...
> 
> Edit-think I can get away with using the Humboldt bloom 0-10-0 and Soluble Seaweed instead of Biobud?? Seems like this duo would kick ass all over the biobud, plus I already have them


Like I said, the Bio Canna is only more pricey if you use the whole line, if you just use the vega and flores it's really not. And you should be using all three of those unless you're using another kelp product or something else for potassium. You can just cook banana peels into ashes and use those for potassium, it's free.  And the Bio Bud is cheap, don't be fooled by the price. You only use 2 or 3 ml per gallon. If you can't afford the bio bud right now it's not gonna make or break your harvest I'm sure. It's just one of those little kick products and it's all organic. Your pot will grow either way, or you can just pick it up later. The 0-10-0 is hard to use as well if you haven't tried it yet. It's very thick and chalky. I actually just fill up empty water bottles with the squirt cap and squirt the amount I want over the soil on each plant before I water. It just sits there waiting for the water to dissolve it. But if I try to mix it in my sprayer, it just stays at the bottom no matter how much I shake it.


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## NightbirdX (Sep 25, 2012)

I use Budswell 0-7-0. It is really thin and mixes in really nicely, though it is made from guano. It is some great stuff though. Best organic phos source I've used.


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## blueJ (Sep 25, 2012)

Crab shell meal, 2-4-0 or something like that, plus it's loaded with calcium carbonate and chitin, and its not poop . Screw the poo.


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## Kalyx (Sep 26, 2012)

Screw the pooganics! (Until soil building time and my Vital Earth's guanos come) 

Heck with fishganics! 

VEGANICS for the win, for quality and medicinal value.


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## stonerwithacold (Sep 27, 2012)

Im probly a day late and a dollar shor but ima add my 2 cents... Gotta say matt you've inspired me to switch from hydro/orgainc in coco to straight v-ganics in a peat based mix... Not only did you take organics to the next level you also grow my alltime favorite strain.... ever.. VORTEX... Only sativa dom hybrid than can knock a kush smokers [email protected]#$ in the dirt!! My new hero reppin my old idol.. CRAZY... Still suprised sooooo many peolpe dont know about tga, subcool or his gear... feirce... Plus was reasearching a pink pheno strain hours before i read this thread when low and behold i kept reading and bammmm.. PLUSHBERRY!!! Like no freakin way!! if this isnt fate i dont know is.. lol..  ... Anyways was reading somewhere on the net that "cilantro" has the ability to detoxify and extract heavy metals out of the body via the urine... So im thinking if i make a FPE (fermented plant extract) with it and feed it to a plant that has had synthetics could this possibly flush them out?... just a thot... Also I noticed you live in cali and are using RO water... If so, you proly know there is sodium flouride, (which is toxic and deadly when consumed) (also in decon/riddex rat poison) and also sodium bromate (banned 5+years in the uk for causing cancer and birth defects) and god knows what other chemicals in the water and if you know basic chemistry, then you know they bond with the oxygen and hydrogen molecules, and therefore are bonded for life... same reason BHO is no good.. butane binds with the plant resins!!! No ammount of heating or purging will remove this!!! Reverse Osmosis only takes out the tds (total disolved solids for you newbs) boron, copper, calcium, magnesium, extc..leaving behind the toxic flouride and bromate still in the water!!  ... NOT ORGANIC!!! Just an FYI!!! I recently found this out and am switching to distilled spring water!! More expensive, but the only true organic way to go!!! Just thot id share my 2 cents... Keep it organic/veganic and RIZE UP.... stonerwithacold... .....


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## NightbirdX (Oct 1, 2012)

There are some things you just wont get from Veganics. I tried for a long while to make it happen, but I eventually just gave in an started using the Budswell again. It is super refined and thin. You have to find what works for you in your grow. If you are happy with your vegan run more power to you. I wasn't happy with it. It gave good results, but not great results. So I added back in the Budswell to help with density and it adds some really nice aromas and flavors. To each his own though. A wise grower always told me, grow your grow as you grow. Find what works for you and run with it.  Is Matt even still doing Veganics? lol


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## blueJ (Oct 1, 2012)

Right there with ya night bird, but I'm tellin ya, add some crab meal to your soil mix, you'll like it a lot better than budswel!

i went on a binge after straight plant based runs and added fish meal and fish bone meal and crab meal, going forward I will only re-amend with the crab meal, besides that all my other inputs are plant and mineral based. Living organic recycled soil AND no till is where it's at . Compost compost compost!


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## Kalyx (Oct 1, 2012)

I agree that it is tougher to get pooganic yields with veganics, and that gardening is personal preferences first. 

Budswel is a superb product and it really does add tons of flavor and the liquid works well in any method. It is twice as concentrated as ff big bloom and retails cheaper, it has very similar ingredients. 

I probably would have jumped ship on veganics by now also if not for 4 things:

1. I grow primarily for quality. Quality of the resin is more important than the flower quality and quantity. Veganics is utmost quality and smoothness.
2. I bought the 5L jugs of biocanna when I had a chance at wholesale cost. I have a lot of vega left but flores and boost are getting down there.
3. I recently attended Kushman's veganic talks and got to meet and blaze my veganics with him. He motivated me to stay with it and feed harder to make it happen.
4. Amazing full melt Ice Wax.........................................RIZE UP!

Whats next? All AACT nourished crops, large bed growing and water only mixes seem to be the most interesting. Living soil all the way tho. Maybe even poo!?


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## blueJ (Oct 1, 2012)

Way back in this thread, I griped about trying to get dialed in with bio canna, yadda yadda, a year later and I'm not using any bottled nutes, none, and seeing the best yields and best quality in years. It's all in the soil, and its fun being a soil farmer and composter rather than juggling a dozen bottles. Thousands of dollars in bottles I went through, I've probably spent a couple hundred on soil amendments over several months, and reusing the soil, I won't spend much at all for months to come  

Work the soil and let the soil grow your plants, and it can be done plant based also...


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Oct 4, 2012)

Hey everybody! I finally finished reading through this remarkable compendium of knowledge. PROPS on this amazing thread Matt seriously, thank you so much for opening up my eyes to this revolutionary way of growing. too bad you don't like the camera cus' I think that you could just about blow any current public marijuana figure out of the water just in terms of knowledge and expertise alone. (Kyle included)... lol. Anyway I'm a new grower, however with all of the information that I've learned from this thread and the few other veganic information sources, I wholeheartedly believe that I'll be able to achieve good results on my first run. so, I have a couple of pretty basic questions that I dont think that anyone has covered yet. im going to be making my own mix and my goal is to replicate the Bio Terra Plus as closely as possible. so anyway, Bio Terra Plus is peat based and we all know that the Bio Canna line works best in a peat based medium...... so my question is this...... are Sphagnum Peat Moss and regular Peat the same thing? If not, which one should I be using in my mix? Should it be a combination of both? and on a little more complicated note.... does anyone happen to know, or think that they may have some idea, of what the ingredient ratio is for the BTP? in other words, about what percentage of the peat/coco/bark, or possibly, peat/peat moss/coco/bark, should I be mixing? As of right now I'm thinking about going with this:

25% Peat
20% Sphagnum Peat Moss (assuming theres a difference, if not Ill just go with 45% of the right one)
25% Coco Coir (Canna)
15% EWC (vegan sourced)
10% Perlite (grade 4)
5% tree bark chips (mold resistant)

I'll then be adding 1% neem cake and 1 cup of Dolomite with some kelp meal (dont know how much yet, I was hoping someone could chime in), along with the Bountea and Extreme Gardening Mycos and Azos.

My final question is in regards to the nessessary PK boost in flowering. I believe it was Bluejay who said that crab meal was an excellent source of PK to use during the flowering period. my question is, if I do add some crab meal to my final transplant mix, will it affect the taste of the finished product in the same way that pooganics does? Thanks for bearing with me through all that. Matt I'd really love to hear your thoughts . same to anyone else out there who would be willing to chime in and share your expertise. Thanks Guys!


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## blueJ (Oct 4, 2012)

for me, Crab is chitin, calcium and phosphorus source, kelp is the K source, crab shell meal is something like 93% calcium carbonate, not much different than adding limestone other than the added benefit of chitin and a healthy dose of P without overdoing it like with guanos, so NO you won't get pooganics LOL. 

Sphagnum Peat moss is what you want, straight from the source via Alaksa peat inc. or premier peat (sold @ home depots/lowes for cheap) if it doesn't say sphagnum then it has been more processed i.e. chopped up and you lose the benefit of it being peat, other than a nearly innert growing medium.

Not sure on the ratios in terra plus, but make sure you mineralize your soil mix, i.e. limestone, gypsum, rock dusts, dol. lime etc. consider 1:1:1 sphagnum peat: aeration amendment: ewc/compost and throw in some of your bark chips or leaf mold, preferably half way broken down by fungi (from sitting out in the elements and remaining moist).

Per CuF of that mix you can add 1 cup of neem cake, 1 cup of kelp meal, 1 cup of dol. lime and i'd throw in 1 cup of mixture of limestone/gypsum and even another cup or two of glacial rock dust / granite dust. I add 1 cup of crab as well, for truly plant based (except the EWC, because worms are animals - sorry but it's true  ) you could sub. rock phosphate as your P source. I've added 1 cup of alfalfa but i don't anymore because i make a lot of alfalfa teas and i find it better that way than in the soil. I've also used azomite cotton seed meal and slue of others with success, but i've backed down on the number of inputs, KISS 

Use the Mycos @ transplants and i don't use Azos anymore, but i would throw it in the tea from time to time or it does make excellent cloning solution.

You don't need HEAVY PK boosters as is the hydro myth, a little goes a long way in a living soil mix, which is what you're making.


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Oct 4, 2012)

Cool, thanks for all the great info blueJ, much appreciated. I may have read this wrong or missed out on some stuff when all those pages got erased but I thought that the general consensus between Matt and the others was that EWC are not technically poop because worms dont have stomaches, therefore the material passes through them undigested, leaving it biologically unrendered. or something to that effect, lol im no scientist myself. anyway, do you think it would be more productive to use compost inplace of the EWC or with them? at least I think thats something along the lines of what you were suggesting right? and im sure im totally wrong about this but arent rock dusts and rock phosphate chemically treated? lol im sure that cant be right or you guys wouldnt be using the stuff. anyway thanks again bro, if anyone else has any input on the mix I'd love to hear it.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 7, 2012)

I'm curious how folks here think about the soil im using currently, and have done with amazing results since 2010. I was told by a friend he only uses sterilized potting soil but ive found that the "friendly" healthy soil is a living soil to let microrganisms help out the root structure. I go only to these guys religiously. www.intervalecompost.net/ good fun those products can be when i can locally source some of the products ive seen such as neem cake and the like. Organics rock!


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## blueJ (Oct 7, 2012)

SeniorFrostyKush said:


> Cool, thanks for all the great info blueJ, much appreciated. I may have read this wrong or missed out on some stuff when all those pages got erased but I thought that the general consensus between Matt and the others was that EWC are not technically poop because worms dont have stomaches, therefore the material passes through them undigested, leaving it biologically unrendered. or something to that effect, lol im no scientist myself. anyway, do you think it would be more productive to use compost inplace of the EWC or with them? at least I think thats something along the lines of what you were suggesting right? and im sure im totally wrong about this but arent rock dusts and rock phosphate chemically treated? lol im sure that cant be right or you guys wouldnt be using the stuff. anyway thanks again bro, if anyone else has any input on the mix I'd love to hear it.


A worm, by definition, is an animal - food goes in one end, and what's leftover comes out the other end - so _technically _you can call it whatever you want, :d I'll leave it at that, not my thread.

good quality compost or ewc can be used interchangeably, if its an option the best bet is to take homemade compost beefed up with alfalfa hay kelp meal rock dusts, comfrey, nettles etc and feed that through the worm bin for highest quality vermicompost.

rock dusts are just that, completely natural very fine rock/mineral, usually byproduct of rock landscaping companies, you can get it free or very very cheap. I like agrowins granite rock dust and gaia green glacial rock dust.

rock phosphate is a mined product from sedimentary deposits, usually phosphorite I believe, and I think there are concerns with it having high qty of heavy metal / aluminum content or something, so some steer clear of it for that reason.

I believe on the label bio canna states to use only with a well mineralized soil.


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Oct 7, 2012)

Thanks again for the info blueJ. that compost to EWC conversion is an awesome tip. i'll be building my worm bin this weekend.

anyway, my local hydro store is an authorized Canna distributor. the manager there told me that Canna has finally started manufacturing the Bio Terra Plus in the US, and its currently in the process of being tested right now. he said that it should "hopefully" be in stores by the end of the year.


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## trichmasta (Oct 9, 2012)

Veganic Qrazy Train!! 56 days of phunk!!


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Oct 15, 2012)

Has anyone tried Bio Bizz's All Mix? this stuff looks like a really good medium and its the only product that I've seen other than the Bio Terra Plus that contains garden peat. from what I understand garden peat is chunks of white or brown peat mixed with regular blonde sphagnum peat moss. I'm thinking about going with this stuff and adding some amendments instead of making my own mix, but I don't know yet.


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## blueJ (Oct 15, 2012)

Make your own mix, that way you know the ratio and quality of amendments, sphagnum peat is the only peat you need to know. From what I saw "garden peat" is peat moss with a little lime and all purpose fert mixed in.


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Oct 16, 2012)

I think that might have just been the website that you were on. it might have been this site called kekkila or something like that. it was the first site I found on google that said anything about garden peat but they just add all that stuff to their product. from what I read, garden peat is sphagnum peat moss, but basically the premiere horticultural grade peat and its pretty much the reason why BTP is so much better than most mediums. its also the reason why BTP and Bio Bizz can buffer Ph while the others cant. I really dont know much about the Bio Bizz though. I looked back in the thread and saw Matt saying that he had heard good things about it in use with regular organics, but Im still hoping someone can tell me if it works well with Bio Canna. I'm pretty sure there are a couple of Canadian peat moss distributors selling garden peat, they just dont call it that. I think Sunshine's grower grade Blue is one of them but I could be wrong. If it doesnt say garden or block peat, or white or brown peat, then it should say something like, "extra course" or "chunky peat".


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## Endur0xX (Oct 17, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Way back in this thread, I griped about trying to get dialed in with bio canna, yadda yadda, a year later and I'm not using any bottled nutes, none, and seeing the best yields and best quality in years. It's all in the soil, and its fun being a soil farmer and composter rather than juggling a dozen bottles. Thousands of dollars in bottles I went through, I've probably spent a couple hundred on soil amendments over several months, and reusing the soil, I won't spend much at all for months to come
> 
> Work the soil and let the soil grow your plants, and it can be done plant based also...


Hey I was just reading through this thread (I dont grow veganic, I try to eat this way though!!) But I see you are re-using your soil or plan on doing so. are you doing it with the Bokashi composting method? if so I would like to keep in touch with you and see what seems to work best, I am just starting to experiment with it and one small batch at a time makes it hard to really know how much to use and all. It would be nice to compare results in the future. Cheers.


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## blueJ (Oct 17, 2012)

What's up Endur0xX - haven't messed around with Bokashi at all bro, heard nothing but good things about it that's for sure - I'm not veganic either anymore, I use Crab Shell Meal LOL, doesn't seem to really be anyone growing 100% veganic, I was going to stop posting here since i'm not veganic, but no one really is lol and there's a good group of people posting here and great info, so i guess i stick around until i get kicked out hehe.

I'm starting to prefer recycling my soil in the sense of going NO-TILL, which = NO FUSS and increased yields and vigour run after run with only simple top dresses. I still do plenty of recycling for the 5 gal buckets though, i break the root ball up and everything and usually i find that i need to add more aeartion amendments, not always the same amount, depends on how much the soil broke down over each cycle ya know what i mean? And i add compost or EWC each time, and minimal amendments such as the crab and kelp and neem and rock dusts, and let it sit for at least a week, i try to do this all way ahead of time so it sits for a month or more. And from time to time it gets watered with compost or botanical teas as the surface dries.

Been reusing the fuck out of my soil for over a year now, better and better my friend


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## Endur0xX (Oct 17, 2012)

Awesome, I will use less bokashi I think, I barely have any roots in my used soil from doing 12/12 from seed in 7 gallons hehe. 

Nice to see other people using neem cake, it has been in my SS recipe from day 1 and I believe it helps with the taste of my flowers, weird maybe I just always felt it does something that I love, and its good for bugs too!! In my room I know there are a few containers with my Recycled SS (which I thought would be way to hot because I fucked up when re-amending it) and I didnt identify them and now I lost track of which is which, so I guess my Recycled SS is working anyway!!

Something I started doing recently too is when I am done with a plant, I put the top half of the container in a seperate garbage bin that the bottom half hoping that at some point after a little while composting with bokashi I can use the weak bins for my seedlings and to transplant.

Nice results btw!!


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## tumorhead (Oct 17, 2012)

So with compost teas do you think of feeding the plants in similar terms to feeding yourself? Like if I want calcium, since I don't consume animal products, I go for some bok choy, cabbage or leafy greens. Would juicing that and feeding it to your plant give them calcium and the other micronutrients it's rich in? Maybe let it sit for a couple weeks stirring to give it time to break down or grow bacteria?

Looking at tea recipes I was surprised how many of the ingredients were just "whole", natural, plant-based ingredients, alfalfa for example, banana peel, etc.


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## blueJ (Oct 17, 2012)

^^^ That's where these expensive secret ingredients and PGR's come from and they don't tell you on the bottle - alfalfa - kelp are the big ones, take the raw plant "meal" or what have you and bubble it for a day, you have a badass botanical tea with all the goodies plus a shit ton more that doesn't make it through the manufacturing process and into the bottle. Liquid seaweed products have become a joke since i started making kelp meal tea.

let it sit for a couple weeks and you'll have a fermented plant extract and you'll want to dilute at least a cup to a gallon, the short brew "tea" can be used at full strength, i don't like to go over a cup of dried material per 5gallon and can usually be used full strength.

alfalfa - kelp - comfrey - nettle - yarrow to name a few.

If a plant is rich in something, i.e. calcium as you suggested, then absolutely it will benefit your plants. - edit - ****homemade compost from kitchen, yard and garden scraps @ it's finest!****


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## Bird Gymnastics (Oct 17, 2012)

blueJ said:


> What's up Endur0xX - haven't messed around with Bokashi at all bro, heard nothing but good things about it that's for sure - I'm not veganic either anymore, I use Crab Shell Meal LOL, doesn't seem to really be anyone growing 100% veganic, I was going to stop posting here since i'm not veganic, but no one really is lol and there's a good group of people posting here and great info, so i guess i stick around until i get kicked out hehe.
> 
> I'm starting to prefer recycling my soil in the sense of going NO-TILL, which = NO FUSS and increased yields and vigour run after
> run with only simple top dresses. I still do plenty of recycling for the 5 gal buckets though, i break the root ball up and everything
> ...


I noticed in your third picture you have something sprouting in there as well. What is that? And does that help when yoU compost that fresh veggie material?


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## blueJ (Oct 17, 2012)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> I noticed in your third picture you have something sprouting in there as well. What is that? And does that help when yoU compost that fresh veggie material?


It's red clover. Nitrogen fixer, helps keep topsoil moist and aerated with an active network of roots and yes with higher microbial activity towards the surface it will enhance decompostion of any mulch material layed down.


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Oct 17, 2012)

that pic is dope bro. looks like some bomb ass bud growing on another planet or something lol. ya im blazed.


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## Pablito113 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ok newbie confession time. My tea pail has a 6" thick head on it and smells like beer.......compost heap, or cannabis pails? I must have overdosed the molasses.


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## trichmasta (Oct 19, 2012)

blueJ said:


> It's red clover. Nitrogen fixer, helps keep topsoil moist and aerated with an active network of roots and yes with higher microbial activity towards the surface it will enhance decompostion of any mulch material layed down.
> 
> View attachment 2376575


digging the clover cover crops blue j! What is your favorite mulch? How much clover to you apply to get started?


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## Endur0xX (Oct 19, 2012)

are you serious I can grow clover with my buds!!


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## Matt Rize (Oct 20, 2012)

just checking in...


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## Da Almighty Jew (Oct 21, 2012)

Matt, ever dry your crops whole before cutting up? I like it. but both ways are good. Lookin good dude.


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## col.forbin (Oct 31, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> just checking in...


WOW....excuse me for my laziness,but i went back 5 pages or more and didnt see any specific stuff used for this grow....i know you are all about veganics(biocanna from what i remember)..im interested in starting veganic growing(over advanced nutrients-too much salt buildup)and have been reading kushmans stuff....so if you mind me asking, what all nutrients did you use? Also,what watt light? Those are some headies for veganic,nice job bro


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## Pimpski (Oct 31, 2012)

Hello... I am not new to this site even tho my title seems that way. Everytime time I make a account the site has been hacked and I lose everything. Anyways I just have a quick question. I have been a caregiver in Michgian for about two years now. I started off using the GO line and was happy with my quality but not with my yields. So then I started doing some compost teas along with it and also feeding at a higher dosage of the nutrients. I started working for a Hydro shop a few weeks ago and we have been picked to carry the Canna lines. Have been looking over a lot of stuff on here and have decided to give it a try. Easy for me to say cause I get it at cost. But my question is.... Is there a movie out there that explains vegan/organics? Compost tea's? All that good kind of stuff?
i know there are a ton of reading materials. But I have problem comprehending what I read. I can read a whole chapter out loud and not remember one thing I read. Its very hard for me to Learn that way. I am a hands on type of person. No one at the shop does organics/vegan but me. So I have no help there. Just trying to find something that can help me. Figure out when I should be adding the right things to my teas during the correct stages of the plants life. I am really happy with the GO lines quality. Taste and smell is as good as it gets. But just never could pull big yields. 
Thanks for your time!


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## + WitchDoctor + (Oct 31, 2012)

Pimpski said:


> Hello... I am not new to this site even tho my title seems that way. Everytime time I make a account the site has been hacked and I lose everything. Anyways I just have a quick question. I have been a caregiver in Michgian for about two years now. I started off using the GO line and was happy with my quality but not with my yields. So then I started doing some compost teas along with it and also feeding at a higher dosage of the nutrients. I started working for a Hydro shop a few weeks ago and we have been picked to carry the Canna lines. Have been looking over a lot of stuff on here and have decided to give it a try. Easy for me to say cause I get it at cost. But my question is.... Is there a movie out there that explains vegan/organics? Compost tea's? All that good kind of stuff?
> i know there are a ton of reading materials. But I have problem comprehending what I read. I can read a whole chapter out loud and not remember one thing I read. Its very hard for me to Learn that way. I am a hands on type of person. No one at the shop does organics/vegan but me. So I have no help there. Just trying to find something that can help me. Figure out when I should be adding the right things to my teas during the correct stages of the plants life. I am really happy with the GO lines quality. Taste and smell is as good as it gets. But just never could pull big yields.
> Thanks for your time!


I used to have the same problem with not being able to absorb the information I was reading, until I started using cannabis concentrates. Now I've learned more about...everything...in the last 2 years than I have the rest of my life combined. Have you experimented with learning on different forms of cannabis? There are a lot of good studies coming out now about certain personality types experiencing better brain functioning on cannabis, certain strains obviously.

There isn't any video that I know of teaching veganics, only classes if you can get to one. But you don't really need a video teaching veganics, you just need to watch a video teaching organic gardening and a video teaching the soil food web and so on. That should be easier for you to find.

I also have not been able to get comparable yields with only plant-based methods, at least not yet. I took a page from some of my friends here in this thread and started using a liquid guano based product for the first 4 weeks of flower along with my normal nutrient schedule and added about .25 grams per watt to my yield on my blue dream. And guess what? It tasted just as sweet as the blue dream I grew without guano. The fact that I'm only using it the first half of flower may play into that, but I think a lot of us also started using teas and perfecting recipes around the time we started growing veganically and may have become a little biased to the methods. I think growing without poop and without animal products is really important, especially for the future, and I'll continue using plant based methods on most of my plants with the goal of getting matching yields to organic grows....but I've gotta admit it was nice to see a couple of branches the size of my forearm again, and still have the same great taste I'm used to. I'll be harvesting some Jilly Bean that also got guano for the first half of flower this weekend...I can't imagine it's not going to taste like candy lol.


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## Endur0xX (Nov 1, 2012)

Poo is truly everywhere in nature, only in much smaller amount... perhaps there might be a happy balance. Doesnt Poo have great beneficial microbes from being digested that you can't get through composted plant matter?


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## Rising Moon (Nov 1, 2012)

blueJ said:


> It's red clover. Nitrogen fixer, helps keep topsoil moist and aerated with an active network of roots and yes with higher microbial activity towards the surface it will enhance decompostion of any mulch material layed down.
> 
> View attachment 2376575



Cool to see others undersowing legumes as well!!!

I do this with all my bigger veggie plants outside, and it keeps the weeds down as well as everything else mentioned.

Red clover is great, but, you should look into dutch white clover, it grows lower, faster and lives longer, "often planted in lawns because it tolerates regular mowing and shade, and requires summer irrigation. Recommended by M. Fukuoka (The One Straw Revolution) for use in permanent vegetable and row crop plantings."


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## blueJ (Nov 1, 2012)

Endur0xX said:


> Poo is truly everywhere in nature, only in much smaller amount... perhaps there might be a happy balance. Doesnt Poo have great beneficial microbes from being digested that you can't get through composted plant matter?


Earth ahem worm castings!


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## blueJ (Nov 1, 2012)

Rising Moon said:


> Cool to see others undersowing legumes as well!!!
> 
> I do this with all my bigger veggie plants outside, and it keeps the weeds down as well as everything else mentioned.
> 
> Red clover is great, but, you should look into dutch white clover, it grows lower, faster and lives longer, "often planted in lawns because it tolerates regular mowing and shade, and requires summer irrigation. Recommended by M. Fukuoka (The One Straw Revolution) for use in permanent vegetable and row crop plantings."


Thanks, yea I need to look that variety up, I'll have to turn to ordering online, I had just been grabbing what was avail. local and of course not much variety in the clover dept! 

Its cool though, in some 2nd run no tills the clover is alive and kicking and new shoots chopping up thru the ewc topdress


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## Endur0xX (Nov 2, 2012)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> I used to have the same problem with not being able to absorb the information I was reading, until I started using cannabis concentrates. Now I've learned more about...everything...in the last 2 years than I have the rest of my life combined. Have you experimented with learning on different forms of cannabis? There are a lot of good studies coming out now about certain personality types experiencing better brain functioning on cannabis, certain strains obviously.
> 
> There isn't any video that I know of teaching veganics, only classes if you can get to one. But you don't really need a video teaching veganics, you just need to watch a video teaching organic gardening and a video teaching the soil food web and so on. That should be easier for you to find.
> 
> I also have not been able to get comparable yields with only plant-based methods, at least not yet. I took a page from some of my friends here in this thread and started using a liquid guano based product for the first 4 weeks of flower along with my normal nutrient schedule and added about .25 grams per watt to my yield on my blue dream. And guess what? It tasted just as sweet as the blue dream I grew without guano. The fact that I'm only using it the first half of flower may play into that, but I think a lot of us also started using teas and perfecting recipes around the time we started growing veganically and may have become a little biased to the methods. I think growing without poop and without animal products is really important, especially for the future, and I'll continue using plant based methods on most of my plants with the goal of getting matching yields to organic grows....but I've gotta admit it was nice to see a couple of branches the size of my forearm again, and still have the same great taste I'm used to. I'll be harvesting some Jilly Bean that also got guano for the first half of flower this weekend...I can't imagine it's not going to taste like candy lol.



when you say you get a smaller yield veganic, is it without worm castings as well?

and say that my weed taste so good it`s some of the best I have ever smoked, would trying to grow veganic really improve the taste another step above?

I am not sold on smaller yield, please try to convert me or help me understand the veganic thing, I am very open minded and my diet is moslty raw vegan...

For my plant though I will always use EWC that is for sure.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 2, 2012)

mushroom hunting... for that good good dirt.


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## Matt Rize (Nov 2, 2012)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> Matt, ever dry your crops whole before cutting up? I like it. but both ways are good. Lookin good dude.


I have allergies so I wet trim as much as possible. and thanks


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## Endur0xX (Nov 3, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> mushroom hunting... for that good good dirt.


can you expand? Are you saying you go in the bush and bring back some goodies for your supersoil? (or base-soil whatever you do) if so, how do you go about it and what is it that you are looking for? THANKS!


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## trichmasta (Nov 3, 2012)

I'm rocking the bio marine from GO this run, so not full veganic for me this time. I'm interested to see the difference in the Natures Nectar and the GO line...taste, flavor, resin, etc... Stay irie all!


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## Sr. Verde (Nov 4, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> I have allergies so I wet trim as much as possible. and thanks


it's just easier too..

Good to see the flowers are still going .


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## William"Fucking"Wonder (Nov 5, 2012)

sharpshoota said:


> alright so i think i am on the right track, just not sure which bucket some supplements and zymes would go in...
> 
> So right now have the aereated bucket with nutrition (all bio series from canna) and supplemental nutes in one , and another aerated bucket in the other stuff like great white, molasses, humega (humic acid),
> 
> ...


Cannazyme and Hygrozyme although slight different, are essentially the same thing. Could save you money to chose your prefered. Hygrozyme + Orchid CHampion(same companies) is the best enzyme / cleaning setup persoanlly.Rhizo is a great product, but without Bio-boost, ur missing part of your myco's. Plant Success "Soluble" NOT granuler Mycorrhizae is the best and is typically in Every myco you use already as they sell nutrients to big companies. Big companies add 1 or 2 useless strains of bacteria or fungis which are not full tested for marijuana or plant crops, some have and are added anyways. OMRI Veganic No Meals, Pure Extracts, 2week Flush. The way it was ment to be.

William"Fucking"Wonder
Pacific North West. The land of Trees


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## Kalyx (Nov 6, 2012)

Pimpski - Kyle Kushman is offering up veganic seminars which would probably get you everything you need in a non-reading format. I just hope you have a serious memory because he dropped so much knowledge during 6 hours that all these NM growers heads were _hurtin_ I could tell! I just attended one back in august and it elevated my grow skill much higher and confirmed what I was doing right already.

Witch - sup man. I am also bringing in guano again to help my yields. My plan is to reintroduce it in my mix and AACTs. I hear you about wanting some better nuggage again. I do not run co2 and am also upping the light intensity which should help too. My other non veganic stuff will be crab meal and fishbone meal also in the mix for Ca and P upgrades.

Endur0xX- dont say you are not sold on lower yields until you have sampled some amazing veganic resin. Dont take our word that it will take your meds a step or MORE higher, TRY IT; this thread is the guide. Some growers are pulling nice yield and density on here. I think Matt is implying that going out into the bush and finding natures energy in special spots and bringing those microbes back into our gardening systems. Use nature to help you out!


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## Endur0xX (Nov 7, 2012)

Ok, I want to try it! but I am confused because even you as a veganic guru, you are still using poop to help your yield and you tell me I shouldnt use any!! hehe

I am willing to try it, only if I can do it with a supersoil style, dont want to buy veganic bottled nutrients... I would like to try 1 or 2 containers to start with, if someone wants to post a recipe that I could use for my first try I will do it. 


Do you keep buying nutrients for your AACTs or you can re-compost and re-use them ? Of course the overall food content would be diminished but we are just trying to grow a population of microbes right?


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## Rising Moon (Nov 7, 2012)

This thread is so focused on bottled crap. I cant believe you guys think this is where quality comes from....

Imagine how incredible your meds would be with true Veganic techniques, like the Stock Free certified vegetable farmers in Europe...

I know we all don't have the outdoor space needed to make our own compost and leaf mold, but come on, the real quality is in the simplicity of it all.

The key to the whole thing being high quality vegetable based COMPOST! 

If we could just focus our intention on making the highest quality compost, all these bottles of "veganic" this and that go out the window.

Real deal, consciously made compost has everything necessary to grow quality medicine. Its just a matter of commitment, time and space.


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## Endur0xX (Nov 7, 2012)

All my compost went into my garlic beds and now I have no compost for my teas so I will buy some amendments. 

So do you grow veganic rising moon?


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## Rising Moon (Nov 7, 2012)

For the most part, I do grow veganic.

I make my own compost, leaf mold and plant extracts (I also grow the herbs for my extracts). 

But, I have 3 chickens so there poop goes in the compost, and a worm bin for castings, so not technically 100% veganic. 

Also, my current soil mix has some Indonesian guano in it, but I am mixing up a new batch soon with no animal products (except castings)


The latest technique I added that I think will really step up my game is, feeding my worms various selected tea herbs(comfrey,nettle,chamomile,yarrow,alfalfa,red clover) kelp and rock dusts.

In my logic, the worms should make all the goodness these plants and rocks contain, into soluble nutrients easy absorbed by plants.

But, I do plan to run straight leaf mold/coco, and only my homemade plant/mineral extracts (i.e. 100% vegan) so I can get an idea of how strong they are, and how they preform by themselves.

I have tons of fun thinking of all the ways I can make my compost better! Next summer, I am going to grow some HUGE outdoor beds of different legumes specifically to harvest and compost, as well as smaller beds of comfrey and dandelion leaves (silica!)

Peace.


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## ZeION1 (Nov 28, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> ...and what is a troll?


Lolling at Rize before he knew about troll. Heee!
Seriously reading this and ICE WAX at the same time.
NOMMM


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## Endur0xX (Nov 30, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> Hey, great. This I love this site! I think I should start a separate thread about HYT because the etiquette police have been all over my sack on this thread already. You know all this stuff already, nothing revolutionary like PLANT BASED NUTRITION!
> 
> I'll outline what I usually "present" in "lecture" (is that better semantically?  really?)
> This is separate from plant based fertilizers, which is really what this thread is about...
> ...


Horizontal training hey ... that is what I am just starting to experiment with, I found that the buds are growing away from the stems which makes them less prone to bud rot ... and I like the shape of the buds this way. 

You say foliar feeding flowers, that is new to me, what would you foliar feed them and how far from harvest is your last feeding?


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## Matt Rize (Dec 1, 2012)

ZeION1 said:


> Lolling at Rize before he knew about troll. Heee!
> Seriously reading this and ICE WAX at the same time.
> NOMMM


That was part of a much greater troll. heh


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## Matt Rize (Dec 1, 2012)

Rising Moon said:


> Real deal, consciously made compost has everything necessary to grow quality medicine. Its just a matter of commitment, time and space.


The reasons you listed are exactly why most people use some sort of bottled supplement: commitment, time and space. Many of us have very little time and space to commit, especially the city folk trying to make pounds. Thanks for spelling it out so clearly.


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## azores (Dec 6, 2012)

I'd love to try to go 100% vegan. I have a quick question that may have been covered already. If so apologies. I'm wondering if the biocanna vega/bloom will clog my red aero misters that run 1min on 4 mins off? The bottled I recently picked up say that they are suitable for hydro...

if it's a no go, anyone know of a vegan lineup that will work in lp aero setup?


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## Kalyx (Dec 6, 2012)

ha ha all synth nutes are technically vegan! No animals were harmed in the making of these synthetic mineral salts, except maybe the microbes they will kill on contact. Biocanna is not for recirculating, or any hydro according to manufacturer. They say something like for use with a mineral soil ie a real soil grow. The only "organic" hydro (really organic based) I ever did was ebb and flow with about 75% feed chart recommended nutes by botanicare. PBP feed chart, plus Budswel and hygrozyme it worked well but it wasn't aero at all, it was ALIVE and foamy and goopy, clog city for sure with anything small.


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## Sr. Verde (Dec 7, 2012)

Hey mattrize thanks for the suggestion on sillica.. I've included it in my line up and the plants seem to like it so far.


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## azores (Dec 7, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> ha ha all synth nutes are technically vegan! No animals were harmed in the making of these synthetic mineral salts, except maybe the microbes they will kill on contact. Biocanna is not for recirculating, or any hydro according to manufacturer. They say something like for use with a mineral soil ie a real soil grow. The only "organic" hydro (really organic based) I ever did was ebb and flow with about 75% feed chart recommended nutes by botanicare. PBP feed chart, plus Budswel and hygrozyme it worked well but it wasn't aero at all, it was ALIVE and foamy and goopy, clog city for sure with anything small.


It says hydroponic right on the front of the bottles... And then on the back it says for use with mineral soil and potting mixes and recommends top feeding. A little misleading if you ask me.


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## Kalyx (Dec 10, 2012)

I think the word hydro on the front middle of the label is a mistranslation or something. It's a Dutch company so uk is only one language they print in. I think they understood the true meaning but put the h-word on there on purpose for marketing to the cannabis niche


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## Cpt. Plant it (Dec 10, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> I think the word hydro on the front middle of the label is a mistranslation or something. It's a Dutch company so uk is only one language they print in. I think they understood the true meaning but put the h-word on there on purpose for marketing to the cannabis niche


Growing hydroponically means delivering nutrients/plant food to plants grown in an inert medium. So all bottled nutrients are hydroponic.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Dec 11, 2012)

Just stumbled across this thread because I've been thinking about switching to a vegan diet. Got through the first fifteen pages and all I can say is "WOW", which is a summary of many words. Amazes me how narrow minded people can be, but not really. I'm just going to put it this way; which is maybe relevant or may not be, it all depends on your view in life. Basically, disease is at an all time peak in America, same goes for our "animal" product consumption. Disease goes up, as plant based consumption goes down. When plant consumption is increased, disease decreases. That's the facts. Now you want to feed animal based "organic" nutes to your plants? And then smoke them for medical use? Lol... Thanks for opening some eyes around here, happy growing!


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## toddzilla (Dec 12, 2012)

blueJ said:


> This first one is my Sour Blueberry lady - fresh blueberry smell & taste. The 2nd two are Sour Bubble purple pheno.
> 
> View attachment 2004731View attachment 2004732View attachment 2004733
> These are from my first run in pure Coconot with cannabio vega/flores/boost, soluble seaweed, HN 0-10-0 & molasses oh and hygrozyme & calmag+ using RO water. These are my two keepers from these strains, there is one more blush i am keeping, for the time being, as it is the most potent cannabis i have ever smoked (i really want to get it tested), but it's veg time needed is ridiculously long. The other phenos all showed real bad deficiencies which i now attribute to very low PH in my bloom feedings (low 4.0's). I figured maybe the coconot lost its gusto once it got a few weeks into flower and without adjusting the PH it just went downhill from there. (thoughts? if you're so inclined, check out my "mid-flower issues" thread in the cannabis infirmary on icmag, i am BlueJayWay over there) seemed like all or most of the feedback i got over there was from chem and/or hydro growers so yeah, not a lot of help....
> ...


Just looking at this veganics thread and I must say, even though it was posted 11 months ago, your blush1.jpg shot has to be the prettiest flowering cannabis plant I have ever seen! That photo definately gets my curiosity going, as far as veganics is concerned.


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## Cpt. Plant it (Dec 13, 2012)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> Just stumbled across this thread because I've been thinking about switching to a vegan diet. Got through the first fifteen pages and all I can say is "WOW", which is a summary of many words. Amazes me how narrow minded people can be, but not really. I'm just going to put it this way; which is maybe relevant or may not be, it all depends on your view in life. Basically, disease is at an all time peak in America, same goes for our "animal" product consumption. Disease goes up, as plant based consumption goes down. When plant consumption is increased, disease decreases. That's the facts. Now you want to feed animal based "organic" nutes to your plants? And then smoke them for medical use? Lol... Thanks for opening some eyes around here, happy growing!


You should check out a movie called Forks Over knives if you haven't already, it's all about plant based diet. Very informative!


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## Dank Raptor (Dec 13, 2012)

[video=youtube;7m0VnzPFxew]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m0VnzPFxew[/video]


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## + WitchDoctor + (Dec 17, 2012)

Yea, I watched Forks Over Knives last year in October, fucking great film. That's what got me to switch over to a whole foods plant based diet in January and it's the best thing I ever did for myself.....aside from learning how to turn my pot into kief to cut down on smoking 

That's also how I came upon this thread, was looking for vegan organic growing methods. This thread changed my life in so many good ways. I even grow my own food in doors now without any poop, just started some pumpkin seedlings I'm gonna fit in with the girls.  I have however temporarily abandoned the concept of growing 100% organically. I was losing yield and it was getting me behind. Now I use a sweet smelling organic liquid guano product up until week 4 of flower and then it's just teas.


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## Dank Raptor (Dec 18, 2012)

If your not using Guano then your losing flavor and yield. If you have a problem with poop then maybe you should try toilet paper.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Dec 19, 2012)

Dank Raptor said:


> If your not using Guano then your losing flavor and yield. If you have a problem with poop then maybe you should try toilet paper.


Hey maybe if you ain't got nothing nice to say don't say anything! Learn some respect! or you ain't going to last here on RIU, unless that's what your trying to accomplish. Go back under your bridge troll.


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## Kalyx (Dec 19, 2012)

I think Dank was joking yo! If you read back a ways you will find that some of us are tossing the guanos, and some other animal products back in and really enjoying the results. Myself included. Guano and fishbone meal are back in my mix and guano and AACT really go well together for cannabis flavor maximization IME.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Dec 19, 2012)

Awesome! I totally understand that, but that was a smart ass comment that came outta nowhere. Enough said, Peace!


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## WyoGrow (Dec 22, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> To explain more: perlite is dead space in the microbial world.


I am sick of hearing this because it is complete BS. Perlite may not be biologically active when you add it to your mix. But it the instant it touches anything with microbial life it becomes fair game for colonization. These puffy little rocks don't remain dead spaces devoid of all life in your media. Perlite has an insane surface area.... perfect for nitrifying bacteria. I am tired of people pumping this bad info out. Perlite may not add life to your soil.... but it damned sure adds more possible spaces for beneficial critters to call home then damned near any other substrate additive.


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## WyoGrow (Dec 22, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> In nature, plants don't feed on poop primarily. Of course animals live/poop/die in the woods, but the soil is still made mostly of decayed plant matter. I'm talking about a purist/elitist (i guess, because BioCanna is kinda pricey) form of horticulture intended for people with compromised immune systems.


Bacteria & various other micro/macro fauna (animals) are generally the prime movers in what performs the decomposition (decay) process. What is left over is their "poop". I see no difference between worm castings and my own poo.... they are both waste products of an animal carrying on about it's necessary biological process. The fact is, soil is what it is because it's made up of the waste products of other organisms.


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## WyoGrow (Dec 23, 2012)

Matt Rize said:


> i got a bacterial infection from some chicken poo. i collected it on an organic farm with some really awesome hippies. i sourced it myself and it was truly beautiful poo. we were so comfortable with it because it was freshly made by free roaming chickens. but im a nail bitter, and i got something nasty, my friend got it too. a couple weeks of confusion later and some antibiotics cleared it right up. rare worst case scenario right? but damn it got me thinkng...
> 
> and no one can say for sure it was the poo. an unknown bacterial infection for both myself and buddy same time right after harvesting the poo. who knows really with the chickens and the goats.


So you are taking your bad hygiene habits and the illness they cause and using it to vilify and condemn "inferior and UNHEALTHY organic growing" and to promote "superior veganic growing". If I ran around licking doorknobs in a hospital and wound up with the flu I wouldn't blame the damn hospital....

I read this entire damned thread in hopes of gleaning more organic growing tricks. Be it vegan, hippie, alien... whatever. All I read was a sales pitch for high priced bottled nutes and a very high and mighty personally opinionated "I grow better than you" comments. IMO all this "veganics" business is just an extension of the superior attitude that many "organic" growers seem to need to have over hydro & chem fert growers. But now it being 100% organic isn't the gold standard any more.... not to really think your shit doesn't stink you gotta grow vegan.


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## Shaanjii Dhansaki (Dec 23, 2012)

Hey everyone! I've been reading through this thread for a while now and I can't believe how many people actually spend the effort to post on here just to be negative! Why trash something that doesn't interest you?

Weird.

Anyway, I've been growing outside for the past 8 years but have suffered pretty badly at times due to weather, disease (a little mold) and most sadly - thieves. I find it tragic that someone would actually steal another mans crop, all the effort and love... gone. I digress, now I have the opportunity to grow inside and have complete control in a solo project. I am very excited about trying out a vegan diet for my new plants which will be started in the new year, I just have a couple of questions (if they have been recently answered I'm sorry);

A) Can anyone make some suggestions on really flavourful (anything novel, unusual, exotic etc.) varieties (available by seed) with heavy resin production for concentrates?
B) Are people using homemade potting mixes and, if so, what are they? I would rather make my own than buy something in.

Oh and uhh... C) What sort of yield drop has anyone noticed when switching to solely plant based nutes?

Thanks in advance for any answers either given or directed towards!


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## Cannabinoids (Jan 1, 2013)

WyoGrow said:


> So you are taking your bad hygiene habits and the illness they cause and using it to vilify and condemn "inferior and UNHEALTHY organic growing" and to promote "superior veganic growing". If I ran around licking doorknobs in a hospital and wound up with the flu I wouldn't blame the damn hospital....
> 
> I read this entire damned thread in hopes of gleaning more organic growing tricks. Be it vegan, hippie, alien... whatever. All I read was a sales pitch for high priced bottled nutes and a very high and mighty personally opinionated "I grow better than you" comments. IMO all this "veganics" business is just an extension of the superior attitude that many "organic" growers seem to need to have over hydro & chem fert growers. But now it being 100% organic isn't the gold standard any more.... not to really think your shit doesn't stink you gotta grow vegan.



^^^^^^^^^^^Look a angry pothead...they do exist!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Did you really just come here to bitch and criticize the man for share his method of growin? there are 1000s of ways to grow this plant. but I guess from seeing your mental meltdown that you MUST have THEE best and only CORRECT way to grow cannabis....

Please start a thread and teach us your ''never seen before'' growing techniques that separates you from matt

Either your off your pills or all 356 of your post must be dedicated to face kicking people in there ways of growing.

Matt Rizes name is know pretty much around the world for his veganics and hash....wtf are you know for exactly? 

I sure hope you ave a LONG thread complaining about the prices of Advance nutrients. Actually I don't. 

Please stop being a troll


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 1, 2013)

WyoGrow said:


> So you are taking your bad hygiene habits and the illness they cause and using it to vilify and condemn "inferior and UNHEALTHY organic growing"


I agree with Canna, chill dude I swear I remember you doing a "organic" grow using only urine and EWC, how'd did that ever turn out?  Sorry but I thought that was too funny.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 1, 2013)

FYI For those who didn't know the nitrogen found in urine is "sodium nitrate" which means your feeding salts to your soil, which the reason(s) I started steering away from using chemical nutes in the first place; Salt build ups kill my soil, if it kills my soil, it kills my plants, if it kills my plants then it must not be good; for me or my plants. Not only that its' pee! "If your main base nutrient is body waste or concentrated with salt"... it's probably not veganic. Peace.


_Spliff_


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## Cann (Jan 1, 2013)

I agree with ya Spliff, Wyo needs to chill a bit, but at the same time I think he has the right to call out this whole "veganics" thing...it does seem a bit high and mighty to me. Then again I think the same thing about vegans so to each his own...I'm still an earth lovin hippy I just think animals exist to be used! Their feces and carcasses are a massive waste problem, so why not turn it into food for plants? Seems logical to me....

Anyway, the reason I was compelled to post is this http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/09/090918-urine-ash-fertilizer.html, a National Geo article about using a combination of diluted urine and ash as a complete fertilizer...read the study and then tell me that it can't be done....


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 1, 2013)

Didn't say it couldn't be done, didn't say anything about diluting; of course if you dillute it it'll work as an "okay" at best fertilizer for cannabis. Have you ever used urine at a nutrient? Piss straight in your pot though and then tell me tell me it can be done....Go ahead, see what happens. Your plant will die because that pee is concentrated sodium. The miracle grow of organics lmao.


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## Shaanjii Dhansaki (Jan 2, 2013)

Okkkkkay, well happy new year first up!

Then...


From lack of input I have started some seeds I had floating around that are a mixture of crosses between a Himalayan Blue Diesel (f) and: an Assassin (m), a Russian Rocket Fuel (m) and another HBD (m). Does anyone have any idea what these might be like? I basically pollinated the female just because I could and wasn't really that interested in Auto's, but I'm intrigued now as I soaked 70 of them and 68 have germinated! They are about 3 years old and were in a baggy in the bottom of a cupboard, crazy how so many were still viable!


I have also found some seeds I secreted away even longer ago: firstly a hybrid Cheese seed from an older and much worshipped grower friend, not sure of the male but the female was the clone only South West Destroyer cut which was sadly allowed to go extinct 6 weeks ago when the owner of the mother went to Nepal on a spiritual journey (fuck that 'exodus cut' in seed form, nothing like the true UK cheese...! ). 2 landrace Thai seeds (which were brought back for me by another friend), a seed from a purple pheno White Rhino which was uncharacteristically strong and a couple of novel crosses between NLx5 and something I don't recognise by smell, taste, high or sight. Promises to be interesting if nothing else, difference in flowering times might make a simultaneous grow somewhat irksome but I might try them anyway as can't be bothered to look for new strains when I have these on my desk. Although they are probably void now, youngest one in there must be 4 years old...


Will let you know how they take? (Everything but the auto's will be veganic).


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## Cann (Jan 2, 2013)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> Didn't say it couldn't be done, didn't say anything about diluting; of course if you dillute it it'll work as an "okay" at best fertilizer for cannabis. Have you ever used urine at a nutrient? Piss straight in your pot though and then tell me tell me it can be done....Go ahead, see what happens. Your plant will die because that pee is concentrated sodium. The miracle grow of organics lmao.


Never used it as a nutrient before, but if I were to use it I would NEVER piss straight into my pot...thats just dumb as fuck lol. IMO its a waste of time to use, but I think the proper mixture of urine, ash, and other nutrients could actually create a pretty good fertilizer, better than "okay" at best, and definitely better than no fertilizer for those who are on a tiny budget. It's feasible, it just isn't really worth the effort for the results unless you are suuuuper desperate


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## boofhacks (Jan 3, 2013)

sweet post nut wherez the actual veganics info. how bout a kushman feeding schedule? or even some insight into the combination of ingredients n brands he uses!


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## WyoGrow (Jan 7, 2013)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> I agree with Canna, chill dude I swear I remember you doing a "organic" grow using only urine and EWC, how'd did that ever turn out?  Sorry but I thought that was too funny.


Just urine and wood ash in DWC. Tomatoes are growing like champs. Still waiting on the outcome of the superbowl to pick who eats the wizz-maters.


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## WyoGrow (Jan 7, 2013)

Cannabinoids said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^Look a angry pothead...they do exist!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Did you really just come here to bitch and criticize the man for share his method of growin? there are 1000s of ways to grow this plant. but I guess from seeing your mental meltdown that you MUST have THEE best and only CORRECT way to grow cannabis....
> 
> ...



Not angry at all. Might be eventually devling into the realm of mildly irritated. I could care less how "famous" Matt is in any community he chooses to be a part of, regardless of how good his "shit" is. What I don't dig is people using flat out personal opinion stated as fact as a way to hype up whatever bandwagon they happen to be a party to at this particular point in time.

I am known for my sweet muffin ass and big kitten eyes....


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## Dank Raptor (Jan 11, 2013)

muffin ass and kitten eyes... hmmm can I see them?


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## couchloc (Jan 13, 2013)

Great thread, thanks. I'm always glad to see plant-based nutrition discussed in any context. I've read the first 100 pages, so please forgive me if my questions have already been answered and point me to the correct pages. In mid-2011, the conversation was getting very complicated with dozens of media, supplements and fertilizers being discussed. There was also occasional mention of creating a vegan soil mix, which might simplify things for those of who don't need optimal results but still want to try vegan for their own reasons. I'd like to get an opinion on a couple of products I've come across - a bagged vegan potting soil and a vegan fertilizer - that look interesting to me. Is a working recipe for a vegan soil mix available? What do you think of using the above products with minimal additions - perlite, lime, minerals and Mycorrhizae? Am I missing any essentials? How much of each would you use? What else (also, how much of it and when) would you use to boost flower production? Finally, is the book mentioned elsewhere that promises step-by-step tutorials of the more complicated methods discussed in this thread (or a similar resource) available? Thanks, again!


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## tekdc911 (Jan 14, 2013)

any suggestions for a gravity fed system maybe a auto pot for a autoflower grow i guess im asking if theres any turn key vegan ferts i could use


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## tekdc911 (Jan 14, 2013)

Shaanjii Dhansaki said:


> Okkkkkay, well happy new year first up!
> 
> Then...
> 
> ...


the assassin and hbd hmm i would like to see the out come as for the rocket fuel and hbd theres not much difference other then the blue trait that i could tell maybe youll get lucky and they'll all be the monster pheno good luck love to see some pics


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Jan 24, 2013)

hey matt we need you dog. the trolls are startin to take over!!!


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## jammin screw (Jan 28, 2013)

out of all the dirts to use what would be best suitable for veganics..... would light warrior be good?


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## RedMan420 (Jan 29, 2013)

WyoGrow said:


> Bacteria & various other micro/macro fauna (animals) are generally the prime movers in what performs the decomposition (decay) process. What is left over is their "poop". I see no difference between worm castings and my own poo.... they are both waste products of an animal carrying on about it's necessary biological process. The fact is, soil is what it is because it's made up of the waste products of other organisms.


LOL, theres huge deference in ewc and any other "poop" , ewc contain some of the worms digestive enzymes in its poop, that's what makes it so good and important for soil!! And if you didn't know that you have no place in takin bout veganics or organics for that matter.


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## sunni (Jan 30, 2013)

you guys need to chill


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## Cannabinoids (Jan 30, 2013)

So what is the offical list of nutrients one is needing to purchase to go veganic and what about the schedule?


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## Wolverine97 (Jan 31, 2013)

Cannabinoids said:


> So what is the offical list of nutrients one is needing to purchase to go veganic and what about the schedule?


Read the first half of this thread and you'll have your answers. There isn't one magic list that'll work for all.


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## Rising Moon (Jan 31, 2013)

Cannabinoids said:


> So what is the offical list of nutrients one is needing to purchase to go veganic and what about the schedule?


This is exactly whats crazy about all these trade names and methods and hydro stores pumping people full of bottles and schedules. 

Learn how to garden, learn how to cultivate the earth, turn in green manure/cover crops. This is the "official" veganic way. Period end of thread.


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## Cannabinoids (Feb 1, 2013)

Bio vega
Bio Flora
Humboldt Bloom (0-10-0)
Soluble seaweed (Technafloras) ~
General Organic CaMag
Bio Boost
enzymatic
mineral matirx micros ~

MICRO
Humboldt Nutrients Myco Madness SOLUBLE
Granular endo & Ecto mycorrhizae (Plant Success, Down To Earth) organicxxl
Humboldt Mayan Microzyme


read these from an article from kyle kushman


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Feb 2, 2013)

So, as far as quality goes, whats the consensus on the grow media? Is making your own mix the smarter and more optimal way to go? Or is buying a bagged soilles mix the way to go? There hasn't been any detailed talk on this subject for a really, really long time now, and theres been quite a few new soiless mixes that have sprung up since and a few others that have gone unmentioned. Im finally about to kick start my first veganic grow and this is the part im stuck on. I was praying that the new Bio Terra Plus would be out by now but oh well, such is life. I know it would be really helpful to me and alot of others I'm sure, if some of you veterans out there could shed some light on a bagged soiless that you've found that can stack up to the BTP, or an equally effective mix that you've made, with an idea on the ingredients and ratios that your using. Thanks guys, and fuck these trolls, lets keep this shit alive!


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## ndm1952 (Feb 14, 2013)

I too am switching to Vegan from Organic.. I am starting with 15 bags of Organic Manna.. My question is do I need to add anything to the "soil" before I transplant into this medium, or do I just transplant and start the nutrient regime.. Thanks


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## Cann (Feb 14, 2013)

Cannabinoids said:


> Bio vega
> Bio Flora
> Humboldt Bloom (0-10-0)
> Soluble seaweed (Technafloras) ~
> ...



LOL rising moon I liked your idea but Cannabinoids hit the nail on the head. bout to head off to the hydro store and drop my entire paycheck, wish me luck!!!

what kind of results can I expect to see with this _professional_ nutrient regime??? if kyle kushman does it, it must be amazing right? I mean, _kush _is his last name...how can you go wrong???

done with this thread, lmao. rising moons post should've ended it once and for all. 

GET OUT OF THE MYTHICAL WORLD OF STONER SCIENCE AND ENTER THE WORLD OF HORTICULTURE. you will not be disappointed. remove from your brain everything that has been pounded into you by hydro store employees, matt rize, kyle kushman, etc. There is no reason to treat cannabis different than any other vegetable. Figure out what the organic vegetable farmers in your area are doing, and emulate this. Quality handbuilt soil, time, pure water, and sunlight. Boom, you got yourself some dank, and saved loads of time, money, and embarrassment.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Feb 15, 2013)

I would like to add, growing TLO is definitely the way to go, but it certain situations it isn't possible for some people. I've grown in DWC, Ebb and Flow, Coco, Soil w/ synthetics (bottles), soil (TLO Style) and soil (canna bio line). With the best result, in regards to flavor, smell and overall high, the TLO style was definitely the best in cost effective compared to quality. But and this is a big but, if you have the capital and are able to use the biocanna line in a strong composted soil/TLO without shit (bat guano, seabird, etc.) I would highly recommend it. I will post pictures of both once I finish my new room of White Fire. There is my a slightly difference in looks, but in smell, taste and overall high you can truly tell the difference. There is something more clean about adding the biocanna to your living soil in small, supplementing amounts. As much as I hate using certain products, I could never achieve the results I get by growing 100% TLO. As far as cost goes, if I didn't have a good amount of capital, I would stick to TLO, but if you have a few bucks to spend I inky recommend 3 products. Bio Flores, Bio Boost and cannazyme and/or hygrozyme. T each their own and I'm not trying to start any arguments. Just simply sharing with what I have noticed.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 15, 2013)

Forget T L O and the Rev. 

Its all about *True Living Soil!*


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## Bird Gymnastics (Feb 15, 2013)

TLO and true living soil is the same thing hahaha


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## Cann (Feb 15, 2013)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> TLO and true living soil is the same thing hahaha


LOL...you sir need to do some research. I'll leave it at that.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Feb 15, 2013)

Hahahaa I love people who deflect. If it is different please explain how so? Can't wait to hear this...


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## Gaia's.Grower (Feb 16, 2013)

Veganics are amazing. I think this is a phenomenal forum and after 2 years people are still interested. I saw a few recent post about soiless mixes for veganics, from personal experience I can definitely say that promix HP and BioBizz coco are great vegan soiless mixes that should go very well with any quality fertilizer schedule, But especially well with any molasses based organic nutrient such as bioCanna or BioBizz. I have personally used bioCanna but prefer the BioBizz line. One way to amend the promix that I've found to work incredibly well is with two bags of BioBizz light mix for every large bale of promix. (the light mix might contain earthworm castings - Im not 100% sure.) The Light mix is soiless for the most part and it provides an amazing organic backbone and some additional stability (great for people who are still trying to dial in their method) in your media, but it is not necessary. 

However in defense of worm castings in veganics, it has been suggested that earthworms evolved around the same time as flowering plants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annelid under evolutionary history. This seems to hint that the two may have co evolved (in order for plants to produce their maximum each year they need a way to break down discarded produce and vegetable matter quickly, in comes earthworms to maintain a good thermal dynamic, collect remote water, aerate any compacted soil, leave their waste in an ideal form for the plant, etc.. This leads to better preforming plants, which will produce more vegetable matter providing more food for worms who are able to provide more nutrients to the land each year and provide a better substrate for stronger preforming more nutrient demanding plants to succeed). Since we are dealing with flowering plants I don't think the possibility of this relationship should be ignored. Also, Biobizz feeds a mineral/plant diet to their worms, has great control over consistency in their input/output, and earthworms are a great way to transform mineral content in the soil into organic material containing high nutrient content. As far as BioBizz's organic standards, I think the website speaks for itself....http://www.biobizz.com/us/company/certifications.

There probably are ways to use peat humus in place of the castings if you wanted to try some personalized mixes, but I don't think you will be able to get the same kind of mineral nutrients into the peat humus without significant fermentation time. Another important distinction between earthworm castings and other animal manures is the type of microbes in your grow media that each encourages. Earthworms have incredible bacteria inside their digestive tract, and since they scour through tons of dirt to collect their food these bacteria are very good at removing almost all nutrition from the soil and leaving behind minerals stored in an organic form that is perfect for beneficial fungi to uptake. Larger animals and birds excrete waste that still contains large amounts of organic material that bacteria can feed on. The biggest indication of this difference is normally seen in the Nitrogen level of each product. Castings have little to no Nitrogen, and guano and manures often times must be well composted to prevent burn (usually from excessive nitrogen) and even after composting still contain high nitrogen. 

So, earthworm castings can lead to a more fungal dominated soil system and higher animal's waste can initially contribute to a more bacterially dominated soil. Now, bacteria play a significant role in nutrient acquisition for plants but are limited by soil moisture levels and physical distance in their mobility. This in turn limits the volume of organic material that bacteria can digest. Mycorrhizal fungi grow hyphae that can extend throughout the substrate and cover significantly more surface area than would be possible for bacteria to feed on, especially once predatory protozoa begin to feed on larger bacteria populations. In addition to the larger surface area for nutrient uptake myc also provides an incredible increase in mineral uptake, especially minerals that may be in organic or various precipitated forms in the media.

Possibly the most significant role of mycorrhizae in mineral uptake is the increased uptake of Phosphorous in organic form. If ionic Phos is available in the media the plant will not make the appropriate interface for myc symbiosis. Once Ionic phos is gone from the media certain enzymes activate and new gene expressions turn on allowing the myc to infect the root. The main reason for only allowing the interface once ionic P is depleted is that the plant will exude carbohydrates in exchange for minerals (i.e. it will trade sugars made during photosynthesis for minerals the myc has mined from the media). If the plant can aquire "free" (ionic) P then it will not sacrifice hard earned sugars for no reason. However, there is a much higher rate of phosphorous uptake from the media once symbiosis has occurred even if ionic Phos is introduced. Also, ionic phos (and other elements) will oxidize into phosphates (in the case of phosphorus) as the media dries and these are more difficult for the plant to access alone.

Fungal dominance in organic soil leads to a higher rate of mineral acquisition and healthier plants. It is easier with veganics in general to create an environment that is much more suitable for fungal dominance due to the method's dependence on minerals and plant based food sources that are, in nature, less nutritionally dense than animal derived products and certainly less concentrated and/or available than chemical based fertilizers. In general, Earthworm castings help to establish fungal dominance and animal waste/animal products help to establish bacterial dominance. So castings aren't necessary in veganics, but they also don't seem to violate the veganic growing principles.


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## Gaia's.Grower (Feb 16, 2013)

These were all done veganic in pro mix hp with BioBizz nutes (Bio grow + Bio heaven veg; Bio grow + Bio bloom + Alg-A-Mic + Bio heaven - for bloom)


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## Cann (Feb 17, 2013)

so...are you advocating the use of earthworm castings in _veganics?


_confused by that massive c/p...


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## Rising Moon (Feb 17, 2013)

"Under Stockfree-Organic Standard 3.5 the following sources of fertility are *prohibited* from stockfree-organic systems:

(a) Products of animal or fish origin
(b) manures, slurry or urine 
(c) Worm compost

For those who don't know, stockfree-organic standards were set by the Vegan Organic Network, a certifying body in Europe, inspecting and certifying veganic farms.

So, NO,EWC is not allowed in veganic growing, and it for sure violates the growing principal.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Feb 17, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> "Under Stockfree-Organic Standard 3.5 the following sources of fertility are *prohibited* from stockfree-organic systems:
> 
> (a) Products of animal or fish origin
> (b) manures, slurry or urine
> ...


Worm compost is not worm castings. According to the International Symposium on Growing Media and Hydroponics, depending on where your casting are derived from determines the type of beneficial organic compounds within the mixture. So ACTUALLY, if you feed your worms straight vegan food, technically the castings produced are vegan as well. As long as you don't compromise their diet with something derived from animals you are golden.

So what's the difference between TLO and "true living soil?" or are you going to deflect that as well lol


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## Cann (Feb 17, 2013)

_"So, NO,EWC is not allowed in veganic growing, and it for sure violates the growing principal."_​


yup...got the same response from kyle kushman and his henchmen at the cannabis cup yesterday...couldn't believe it. I asked how they manage to grow _veganically_ outdoors without earthworms penetrating the growing media..."we grow in large pots"

no response on my question about the tiny critters in the soil food web which are still very much "animals" in the literal sense...nematodes, protozoa, micro and macroarthropods, etc. - no real way to avoid these...so all _"veganic" _grows are still being aided by the waste product and activity of countless tiny soil animals. that is what gets me about the whole ordeal....

BUT i did get a free sample packet of Kyle's _"Veganic Special Sauce"_ (this is the actual name...I kid you not) Old School Growers OG Tea (cause if it's got OG in the name it _has_ to be good, right?). The magical formula includes Soft Rock Phosphate, Humic Shale, Molasses, and Kelp..and of course your garden variety of bacteria and fungi. Straight into the worm bin where it might get turned into something decent LOL


EDIT: bird - are you saying worms aren't animals....or am i misunderstanding the first rule?

_"Products of *animal* or fish origin"_


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## Rising Moon (Feb 17, 2013)

What an arrogant ass!

"we grow in large pots"

Possibly the most ignorant thing I have read in this forum, coming straight from the guru himself...

If he knew ANYTHING about growing veganic, he would know that cultivation of all levels of indigenous life (WORMS, frogs and other critters) is one of the MOST important aspects of vegan growing!!!

It is prohibited to use worm castings made by worms that are kept like pets, out of the natural environment, NOT excluding them from the EARTH you are growing out of.... Jesus H Christ!

Wow, just wow. Dude has no fucking clue/background to call himself veganic anything. Especially a consultant. LOL!!!!

I bet he hasn't even read any of the veganic literature, none the less browsed their websites.


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## HiloReign (Feb 17, 2013)

So from what I can gather, veganics is as much a sales pitch as TLO?


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## Rising Moon (Feb 17, 2013)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> Worm compost is not worm castings. According to the International Symposium on Growing Media and Hydroponics, depending on where your casting are derived from determines the type of beneficial organic compounds within the mixture. So ACTUALLY, if you feed your worms straight vegan food, technically the castings produced are vegan as well. As long as you don't compromise their diet with something derived from animals you are golden.
> 
> So what's the difference between TLO and "true living soil?" or are you going to deflect that as well lol




NOPE!

Wrong bro, just wrong. 

READ THE STANDARDS.

VEGANIC IS AN ACTUAL WAY OF GROWING, NOT SOME BROAD BASED PHILOSOPHY TO BE INTERPRETED HOW YOU SEE FIT.

FARMS CAN BECOME CERTIFIED VEGANIC AND CANNOT USE ANY ANIMAL BASED PRODUCTS. WORMS ARE CONSIDERED ANIMALS.

HUMAN POOP IS ALSO PROHIBITED REGARDLESS OF A VEGAN DIET.

BASED ON YOUR ARGUMENT, GRASS FED COW POOP SHOULD BE OKAY TO USE FOR VEGANIC GARDENS, BECAUSE THEY ATE GRASS, RIGHT?......WRONG.


Living Soil is something that comes from turning under green manures, cover crops and crop residue, it is built slowly, with compost, rock minerals, and crop rotation.

NOT SOMETHING FROM A STONER BOOK, THAT INCLUDES "SPIKES" AND TOP DRESSING BAT GUANO!!!


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## + WitchDoctor + (Feb 17, 2013)

I thought the argument was about what the definition of "true living soil" was, and whether or not it was the same thing as "true living organics", not what the definition of "living soil" is. Maybe that's the confusion over the definition, that you accidentally threw the word "true" in one true many times? 

I agree that the reason the Vegan Organic Network states that Worm Compost is prohibited "as a main source of fertility" may be because worms would be kept as pets, but they don't state that it can't be used as a supplemental fertilizer anywhere that I can see. You can point out if I'm wrong. But I don't see anywhere in their standards something stating that worm castings or worm compost cannot be used at all. 

Also, they state "(j) compost that has been shown to encourage beneficial antagonistic organisms and have an inoculating effect on disease". While I'm sure there are plenty of ways to make regular compost that will attract these organisms...Worm compost does that job. 

So if the Vegan Organic Network is going to be the decide-all for veganics as you say, they should speak a little more clearly on the topic of EWC. 

I emailed them for clarification. I'd actually like to know once and for all whether EWC are being considered vegan by people who actually care about what being vegan means. Kyle Kushman may not be one of those people lol...but I definitely am. I haven't seen anything wrong with keeping worms and feeding them compost because I don't see them as animals or prisoners...but to be honest they're in a plastic thing in my basement haha. But if I kept my worms composting outside, they'd have the option to free themselves at any time either way. Hopefully I get a good response from them...


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## Rising Moon (Feb 17, 2013)

Curious what the email reply says, keep us posted. 

I own the book of standards for veganic growing. As far as I know worm compost/castings of any kind are prohibited. 

worms that find their way into your outdoor compost pile, or garden all by them selfs are obviously ok, and encouraged.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 17, 2013)

The main source of fertility on Veganic farms:

2 years of a legume (red clover) mowed and tilled under during flower,


And, Plant based compost made on the registered holding.


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## Gaia's.Grower (Feb 17, 2013)

http://medicalmarijuana.com/experts/expert/title.cfm?ARTID=458&MEMID=73&pageNum=2 here is kyle kushman on a veganic page advocating a mix that contains EWC.

if you 100% treat your outdoor garden veganic you will have earthworm castings. There is no way around it.

I do believe there are ways to container garden without EWC.


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## Gaia's.Grower (Feb 17, 2013)

"worms that find their way into your outdoor compost pile, or garden all by them selfs are obviously ok, and encouraged" -rising moon

So is it the method by which the castings are obtained? The worms diet I believe should be under serious scrutiny. As should the living conditions of the worms. Are your saying that castings are okay as long as someone doesn't physically touch the castings and move them or cognitively decide and dictate the mixing ratios/methods? If we leave those choices to the worms then its okay?


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## Bird Gymnastics (Feb 17, 2013)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> I thought the argument was about what the definition of "true living soil" was, and whether or not it was the same thing as "true living organics", not what the definition of "living soil" is. Maybe that's the confusion over the definition, that you accidentally threw the word "true" in one true many times?
> 
> I agree that the reason the Vegan Organic Network states that Worm Compost is prohibited "as a main source of fertility" may be because worms would be kept as pets, but they don't state that it can't be used as a supplemental fertilizer anywhere that I can see. You can point out if I'm wrong. But I don't see anywhere in their standards something stating that worm castings or worm compost cannot be used at all.
> 
> ...


You are right, this has gotten derailed from what I originally asked. What is the difference between TLO and True living soil? That is it. Whether or not EWC are "truly" veganic or not.

And to answer your question, since worms technically don't have a stomach, if a cow WITHOUT a stomach could eat grass and shit, then yes I would use that manure in my garden. Worm castings is not considered poop with the basic knowledge of knowing worms don't contain a stomach to digest and breakdown elements like ANIMALs would. So technically, Worm castings is like magical "poop" lol


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## Gaia's.Grower (Feb 17, 2013)

bravo bird.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 17, 2013)

You guys seem a little thick headed, and also are over anayizing everything!

Like I said. True living soil is made with compost, minerals, rotation of crops, green manure use and home made teas, castings, ferments ext. 

NOT store bought, bottles, bags, plastics, "organic" fertilizers. 

Im talking raw sourced materials. Growing my own comfrey, clover, alfalfa for teas and compost and worm food. 

I build my soil with clover and buckwheat. I have chickens graze on my beds that are in cover crops. 

I make biochar, biodynamic preparations, fermented plant extracts, compost, leaf mold, EWC and haul my ass out to organic farms and shovel TONS of grass fed manure in to the back of my truck. 

In other words. Real deal organic growing. My focus is on my soil and the earth. 

Shitting on Rev, Kushman Veganics and TLO ALL DAY LONG.

Im out!

Time for you guys to hit the hydro shop isn't it?


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## Cann (Feb 18, 2013)

_*"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rising Moon again."*_


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## Bird Gymnastics (Feb 18, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> You guys seem a little thick headed, and also are over anayizing everything!
> 
> Like I said. True living soil is made with compost, minerals, rotation of crops, green manure use and home made teas, castings, ferments ext.
> 
> ...


Okay. So back to my first question, how is TLO different from True living soil? Because the basic rundown of what you do is almost identical to TLO style growing. I too do all of that as well, only thing that differs is I dnt use green manure and/or any shit for that matter. Chicken shit might be high in nitrogen, but it will never see my garden. I use a few bottled nutrients but only because some products just can't be mimicked. I use hygrozyme and canna bio boost. Regardless of how much I do and how many teas I make, you will never achieve the results I do without using those two products. Be ignorant if you want but I have tested all these different styles for a couple years now and each have their own benefits for sure, but overall trichrome production as well as flavor, really stands out by just using bio boost(fermented sugar cane)

I just think you are trying to be different by adding a different name. You do exactly what any TLO gardener does besides growing your OWN alfalfa and other beneficials and/or amendments. The more simple my soil mix and teas are the better my garden is, hands down. Keep using buckwheat and things of sort, because you my friend are going over and beyond in a negative way.

Im out!


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## Rising Moon (Feb 18, 2013)

LOL using buckwheat is over and beyond....

Try telling that to ANYONE who knows ANYTHING about organic farming.

Cover crops like buckwheat and clover are VERY basic, Like Organic Farming 101...

Cornell University (Ivy League AG school) now even recommends using buckwheat as the basic building block for soil on organic farms for a number of reasons...

It is cheap, grows prolifically, easily, resists drought, is pest/disease free, builds organic matter, fixes calcium, provides forage for beneficial insects, can be grown multiple times per season and is easy to save your own seed for after buying and growing it ONCE. 

Why is this over and beyond "in a negative way"? 

Oh yeah, because you know nothing about it.

http://www.hort.cornell.edu/bjorkman/lab/covercrops/buckwheat.php

If those expensive bottles you cling to were so good, why dont I read about them in books about agriculture/farming/gardening...?

Must be that those *PROFESSIONAL* farmers are missing out on something right...? Like your hygrozyme and canna bio boost....

Yeah right!

Glorified sugar is what I call bio canna, and it doesn't even come from *organic* cane sugar LOL.

Meanwhile the *real farmers are GROWING the fertility required by their plants*,

and *you are BUYING them.*

True Living Soil in a nutshell.



So, tell me ALL about the BIODYNAMIC preps you make? 

What are they again...?


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## Cann (Feb 18, 2013)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> I use a few bottled nutrients but only because some products just can't be mimicked. I use hygrozyme and canna bio boost. Regardless of how much I do and how many teas I make, you will never achieve the results I do without using those two products._ Be ignorant if you want_ but I have tested all these different styles for a couple years now and each have their own benefits for sure, but overall trichrome production as well as flavor, really stands out by just using bio boost(fermented sugar cane)


dude...hate to break it to you but you have been brainwashed to death by the hydro store employees and marketing department at High Times magazine...why would you pay $100 for 1/2 gallon of fermented sugar cane??? LOL. Mix yourself a FPE with dandelion, comfrey, horsetail, etc. and then add molasses after a few days. boom, bio-boost for 1/100th the price - plus you get all of the enzymes etc that you wouldn't get from bio-boost (sitting in a bottle for months is not conducive to enzyme health)

hygrozyme can easily be mimicked with a sprouted seed enzyme tea. * zyme *is the key here...enzymes are much easier to get from fresh plants than from something out of a bottle (not to mention the $$$). if you need something out of a bottle, a dilution of 1:15 young coconut water and h20 will give you better results than you have ever seen - i guarantee it. doubt me? try it out...

Do a side by side and compare - you'll see. Every product on the market can be mimicked at home...despite what you might think. Canna does not posses any "secret" knowledge that we don't have access too...they just convince you they do and then put an awesome fancy label and high price tag on their products (cause if its expensive, its got to be good right?). 


On the subject of TLO vs. "living soil"...there are most definitely a few fundamental differences that you aren't grasping. 

1. TLO advocates the use of bottled products such as cal/mg, etc. "living soil" does not support this AT ALL. 
2. TLO encourages the use of "spikes and layers" - something that is inherently ridiculous. "living soil" utilizes a thoroughly mixed medium
3. TLO is trying to SELL YOU SOMETHING - "living soil" is about bonding with your soil, loving it, and understanding it in order to support your plants
4. TLO advocates the use of bagged products like "gardner and bloome" EWC, bagged potting soils, etc. "living soil" is about constructing your own soil from scratch so that you know exactly what goes into your product. With "living soil" one spends much more time sourcing their ingredients because they realize that high quality ingredients make a high quality end product. Foraging for local plants/leaf litter and using these in the soil/teas is something that is not advocated in TLO (probably because they won't be seeing any $$$ from it...)
5. TLO still follows the modern cannabis paradigm of "feed the plant" whereas "living soil" follows the old proverb "feed the soil, not the plant". 
6. TLO does not suggest the use of a cover crop/companion plants, whereas "living soil" is all about synergy within the rhizosphere
7. TLO considers many insects to be pests, whereas "living soil" welcomes things like soil mites, springtails, rove beetles, etc. 

TLO is the lazy mans version of "living soil"...I could keep going forever on this if you really want...just give it up dude. TLO is a marketing situation, "living soil" is horticulture. I will agree that in the spectrum of cannabis growing they are very close (both on the far end of organic practices) but they are NOT THE SAME THING. ever notice that there isn't anyone selling "living soil" books, etc. in the cannabis market? it's cause there is NO MONEY TO BE MADE from this...the folks selling stuff to hydro stores are raking in the cash from all of the brainwashed growers out there. these products are not sold to real horticulturists - they know better than to buy the snake oil. Look through the Rev's book and see how many subtle ads there are...talk about backend revenue. The simple fact that he is selling something should immediately raise red flags (even if it is just a "style" of growing - hell, _veganics_ is a "style" of growing and we all know how that goes..). Stop pretending that you know everything and we are being "ignorant", do some reading, and throw away those bottles of trash. Listen to Rising Moon, he knows what he is talking about. Keep being a dick and we will stop giving you help....lol.

EDIT: rising moon, LOL - "above and beyond" totally means he doesn't understand and doesn't want to spend the time to understand...but we're the ones who are "ignorant" in his words...

he'll take the time, do the reading, and get there one day. it'll just take a few failed crops from hygrozyme and bio boost haha


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## Cann (Feb 18, 2013)

oh yeah and I got a clarification from the master cultivator (LOL) himself - Kyle Kushman - yesterday at the cannabis cup. He says that earthworms are allowed in his version of veganic cultivation only if they are fed a strict vegan diet. As he put it, the worms don't have true stomachs and instead act as a medium for bacteria to breakdown organic material, and since bacteria are not "animals" it is not an animal byproduct in the conventional sense of the word. Basically, a stomach has to be involved for it to be true "poop". On the subject of nematodes and protozoa, etc, he said that they were welcomed in veganic growing (because theyre basically impossible to avoid) and that their inputs are not large enough to affect the "_veganic integrity_" of the soil. He did agree that nematodes and protozoa can be considered animals in the traditional sense...although I had to explain to him the definition of "animal" and eukaryotes vs prokaryotes etc. He said that he did not have the vocabulary to explain why earthworms and nematodes etc are allowed, but that they comply with the veganic definitions..he then ushered me over to his kylekushman.com sign up sheet.....

LOL so despite the insane misinformation that he produced (master cultivator eh?) he also agreed that there are hundreds of thousands of animals in every batch of veganic soil which are constantly shitting on your wonderful "veganic" heaven...I would consider this non-veganic of course, but he says it's good to go. i guess it depends on the definition of "vegan" which I have never taken the time or energy to look up...

animals are part of this planet....why would we want to exclude them? especially from something as raw and primal as soil...that shit needs its animals to be alive! I guess that's where veganics and "living soil" differ...one of the million ways. 

so there you have it....who the f*** knows what _veganic_ means


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## Bird Gymnastics (Feb 18, 2013)

Cann said:


> dude...hate to break it to you but you have been brainwashed to death by the hydro store employees and marketing department at High Times magazine...why would you pay $100 for 1/2 gallon of fermented sugar cane??? LOL. Mix yourself a FPE with dandelion, comfrey, horsetail, etc. and then add molasses after a few days. boom, bio-boost for 1/100th the price - plus you get all of the enzymes etc that you wouldn't get from bio-boost (sitting in a bottle for months is not conducive to enzyme health)
> 
> hygrozyme can easily be mimicked with a sprouted seed enzyme tea. * zyme *is the key here...enzymes are much easier to get from fresh plants than from something out of a bottle (not to mention the $$$). if you need something out of a bottle, a dilution of 1:15 young coconut water and h20 will give you better results than you have ever seen - i guarantee it. doubt me? try it out...
> 
> ...


Wasn't being a dick at all I was just wondering why you couldn't give me a straight answer. Now that you have, thank you. I don't go to grow stores and haven't learned anything from these sits except from people's failures. I have done many FPE and never had results like bio boost delivers. Even had a horticulturist try the same thing and he couldnt achieve results like canna does. There is a reason certain products are expensive and this is why.

What I mean about over and beyond is the fact you are working to hard to achieve the results you obtain. Keeping it simple, with your basic regiments of preparing soil, brewing teas etc. you guys seem like those over analytic type people who find 15 different ways to tighten a screw when my mentality is, "righty tighty, lefty loosey" haha. Never meant to spin out of control I just wanted to see your guys explanation of TLO compared to true living soil. I'm sorry if you guys misconstrued how I was coming off, I am super medicated when on this site. So no hard feelings, I don't like having enemies but many friends


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## HiloReign (Feb 18, 2013)

Someone had to serve up the humble pie. Thanks a lot, my friends whom bake.

While I have to admit, I bought the book and read it (TLO), I found some of his writings humorous. I am entirely new to organic growing (the right way) and even that much was apparent. To quote the Rev:

"One of my all-time favorite bulbs for full term, sprout to harvest TLO growing is the Eye Blue Metal halide (MH). My least favorite is the High Pressure Sodium (HPS) bulb. HPS bulbs do not seem to allow the plant to absorb and/ or process nutrients as well as the MH bulbs, unless you are growing with a synthetic set up or a &#8220;Soup-Style&#8221; organic set up, which I will discuss later in this book.

Rev, The (2012-10-01). True Living Organics: The Ultimate Guide to Growing All-Natural Marijuana Indoors (Kindle Locations 244-247). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition. 

He goes on to offer nothing in support of why MH is better than HPS. There's obviously much more to poke at in the book, but what do I know...


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## Bird Gymnastics (Feb 18, 2013)

Cann said:


> oh yeah and I got a clarification from the master cultivator (LOL) himself - Kyle Kushman - yesterday at the cannabis cup. He says that earthworms are allowed in his version of veganic cultivation only if they are fed a strict vegan diet. As he put it, the worms don't have true stomachs and instead act as a medium for bacteria to breakdown organic material, and since bacteria are not "animals" it is not an animal byproduct in the conventional sense of the word. Basically, a stomach has to be involved for it to be true "poop". On the subject of nematodes and protozoa, etc, he said that they were welcomed in veganic growing (because theyre basically impossible to avoid) and that their inputs are not large enough to affect the "_veganic integrity_" of the soil. He did agree that nematodes and protozoa can be considered animals in the traditional sense...although I had to explain to him the definition of "animal" and eukaryotes vs prokaryotes etc. He said that he did not have the vocabulary to explain why earthworms and nematodes etc are allowed, but that they comply with the veganic definitions..he then ushered me over to his kylekushman.com sign up sheet.....
> 
> LOL so despite the insane misinformation that he produced (master cultivator eh?) he also agreed that there are hundreds of thousands of animals in every batch of veganic soil which are constantly shitting on your wonderful "veganic" heaven...I would consider this non-veganic of course, but he says it's good to go. i guess it depends on the definition of "vegan" which I have never taken the time or energy to look up...
> 
> ...


.

This is exactly what I was saying, as long as your worms are "vegan" technically so is their castings. All veganic growing means is your supplements and/or soil come from a majority of different plant extracts. I agree that it is very controversial and really is based n how you interpret it. I don't have any animal anything, besides EWC, in my plants. Resulting in some of the cleanest smelling, cleanest tasting medicine I have ever had an opportunity to try.


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 18, 2013)

Whats the point behind veganics anyway? Unless you are a hardcore vegan who only eats vegetables then whats the point? I would think vegan pot heads only make up like 1% of the MMJ community. I really cant tell a difference as I have smoked Birds veganic flowers, and I smoked my buddies and my own organic flowers ( which we use a lot of the same stuff / techniques that Rrog, Cann and Rising moon are always preaching about) and I really cant tell a difference at all. Not knocking veganic growing just curious because I cant tell a difference in the end product.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Feb 18, 2013)

BeaverHuntr said:


> Rrog, Cann and Rising moon are always preaching about.


Preaching, so that's what they call it?

kiss-ass


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## RedMan420 (Feb 18, 2013)

BeaverHuntr said:


> Whats the point behind veganics anyway? Unless you are a hardcore vegan who only eats vegetables then whats the point? I would think vegan pot heads only make up like 1% of the MMJ community. I really cant tell a difference as I have smoked Birds veganic flowers, and I smoked my buddies and my own organic flowers ( which we use a lot of the same stuff / techniques that Rrog, Cann and Rising moon are always preaching about) and I really cant tell a difference at all. Not knocking veganic growing just curious because I cant tell a difference in the end product.


I have switched from organic to veganic this round and my plants are lovin it, no nute burn like I would sometimes get in organic , seems like the plants are metabolizing the food better . And also the smell of veganics is so much better, I was using AN iguana juice and it smelled so bad , now I'm using bio canna and it smells like sugar. So yes I highly recommend switching from organics to veganics


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## Cann (Feb 19, 2013)

lol yeah I choose all my products based on smell...

ever smelled a 3 day old barley enzyme tea??? LOL most people would chuck that immediately...I chuck it into some h20 and then feed my ladies  Smell is not everything...


_*"Preaching, so that's what they call it?"*_


[video=dailymotion;x675g6]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x675g6_dusty-springfield-son-of-a-preacher_music#.USPBQIlevjM[/video]


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## HiloReign (Feb 19, 2013)

Cann said:


> lol yeah I choose all my products based on smell...
> 
> ever smelled a 3 day old barley enzyme tea??? LOL most people would chuck that immediately...I chuck it into some h20 and then feed my ladies  Smell is not everything...
> 
> ...


Lol. Comfrey makes one stink ass FPE.


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## RedMan420 (Feb 19, 2013)

Cann said:


> lol yeah I choose all my products based on smell...
> 
> ever smelled a 3 day old barley enzyme tea??? LOL most people would chuck that immediately...I chuck it into some h20 and then feed my ladies  Smell is not everything...
> 
> ...


Yeah well an iguana juice smells like rotten fish and I water by hand and my hands and arms would stink , I had to always take a shower after feed my plants and it would make my grow room smell like a dirty fish tank after feedings, now with use bio canna + compost tea, no more fish smell , I'm lovin it!!


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## Cann (Feb 19, 2013)

keep spendin that $$$ at the dro store...


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## RedMan420 (Feb 19, 2013)

Cann said:


> keep spendin that $$$ at the dro store...


Haha I can't tell if your jokin or just trying to be a dick, but my plants make me $$ so I spend a little on them to keep them happy....and I do make my own compost tea so idk really what your referring to??


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Feb 19, 2013)

RedMan420 said:


> Haha I can't tell if your jokin or just trying to be a dick, but my plants make me $$ so I spend a little on them to keep them happy....and I do make my own compost tea so idk really what your referring to??


He's trying to help, but he is a dick a about it. Hydro store or a farm supply store; whatever floats your boat.


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## headtreep (Feb 19, 2013)

I source materials wherever I can personally but my local grow stores don't stock dry soil amendments only bottled nutes. Funny thing is the owner only grows organic lol. I seem to save good ordering from organic coops. Farm supply stores are great too and I even use hardware stores like Ace. I did the bottled thing and meh I now spend fraction of what I did when I switch to all dry amendments. I spend about 300 or less a year to grow what used to cost me about 1500. I get better results with less money. If people want to use bottles more power to them as long as they get the same results. I know better.....


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Feb 19, 2013)

has anyone tried using bio canna nutes with the humboldt mix from humboldt nutrients? im a first time grower and im stuck dead in my tracks on what grow media to use. ive gone back and forth in my head for months between making my own peat/coir mix, or just running a bagged soiless or combining a few different bagged soiles mixes. im thinking about trying either the humboldt mix or promix hp and adding some coir, EWC, and a little bit of ancient forest, with ammendments. i've asked a few times on here already and got some pretty good advise, but does anyone have any suggestions on a media/s (bagged, combined, or made from scratch) that can produce the same or similar results to the bio terra plus, when used with bio canna's nutes? i probably should have been a little more specific on my last post.


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## Gaia's.Grower (Feb 22, 2013)

Biobizz light mix will let you have more control over feeding Biobizz allmix will have more amendments in it. Either way these soils were made to run with molasses base nutrients and as long as you're okay with EWC they will work in veganics.

I've found it doesn't hurt to cut with ss#4 organic and a little extra perlite, especially for seedlings and freshly rooted cut.


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## Shwagbag (Feb 22, 2013)

Awesome thread, I have some major reading to do. Does anyone have any information to offer on a product called ecoscraps? Either their compost mix, liquid compost or their potting mix? It caught my attention while searching for mushroom compost on the web.


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## sal3 (Feb 23, 2013)

the reason i like the no animial is because of all things mad cow and ecolli. mad cow would be in the bone and ecoilli in shit. also i seen what bio vega etc at work and I like it. if that is done with plants only . I happy. and if I can make it my self I even more happy. wehi use to make compost tea with shit and the worst it smelled the better. I learn that was all wrong and now the sweeter the tea smelles the better. I like the way this is going. when even the tea you use can be tested for life and the kind of life needed for what I grow . :>


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## + WitchDoctor + (Feb 24, 2013)

I'm glad we can ALL finally agree that EWC is a controversial issue in veganic growing. Only 5 pages later . Lol.

I still haven't had a reply back from the vegan organic network, maybe someone else can email them as well. I'm assuming they don't have any motivation to answer the email so they haven't...

Some of us have the time, the means, and the attitude to go through what the average person feels is too much trouble to grow. I personally have gotten into outdoor composting without worms since the Fall when I realized I would need much more compost for my outdoor edible garden this year. But for people that are growing in containers indoors, and not doing any major outdoor gardening or living on or close to a farm...it's just a lot easier to buy a few bottled or bagged products that are good for our plants...and to recycle or reuse those bags and containers. And I don't mean easier in the sense of cutting corners. I mean easier in the sense that not everyone can dedicate so much time to growing in the most organic matter possible. Not everyone can be an elitist with this stuff, some of us have to settle for almost perfect. 

The reason a lot of people are choosing "veganic" as a way of growing their medicine in containers indoors is because the taste and quality are superior to flowers grown with poop. It's that simple. It's not a huge difference, but I'm sure any of you guys that are following tradition and using the ultimate in veganic methods already know that. Well the people growing indoors with bottles and bags have noticed the difference too, and they're not trying to save the world with the way they grow pot, they're trying to save themselves more than likely. 

So if you guys, Cann and Rising Moon, could figure out a way to guide growers that are still ignorant to the fact that they are not growing in a truly veganic manner without talking down to them or alienating yourselves from others by being smarter than everyone else and absolutely smug about it...you could be very valuable to people, instead of just raising conflicts left and right. That's what this site is for after all isn't it?  I'd certainly like to get some of that good info from you guys soon when it starts to warm up enough for me to work on the yard outside in a couple weeks! I'd like to start growing better stuff specifically for my worms to eat as well. 

By the way, I collected a lot of mulched leaves this fall to make leaf mold with. Does anybody know how long it typically takes before it's usable without it being turned??


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## hyroot (Mar 4, 2013)

Shwagbag said:


> Awesome thread, I have some major reading to do. Does anyone have any information to offer on a product called ecoscraps? Either their compost mix, liquid compost or their potting mix? It caught my attention while searching for mushroom compost on the web.


I've benn using their compost for long time. I love it. I have wondered about their soil .Their site doesn"t give much info other than its made from 25 fruits and veggies, coco coir, and perlite. I'm not sure how much to amend. I just started to use pro mix hp. I just got my first bale. I make my super soil (adjusted) and use that as a base.... I switched from roots organic.


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## Shwagbag (Mar 5, 2013)

hyroot said:


> I've benn using their compost for long time. I love it. I have wondered about their soil .Their site doesn"t give much info other than its made from 25 fruits and veggies, coco coir, and perlite. I'm not sure how much to amend. I just started to use pro mix hp. I just got my first bale. I make my super soil (adjusted) and use that as a base.... I switched from roots organic.


Thanks hyroot! I'm going to get some of the compost to add to my soil mix. I also am switching from roots to pro-mix BX. My plants are really taking to the lighter mix. We are thinking alike! And nice picture of the Asshole in your avatar! lol

Shwag


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## personal lux (Mar 7, 2013)

i have been using the general organics line with great result until week 3 flower. started getting leaf curl and calcium def. not sure why exactly. i use hygrozyme and both subcultures. is there anything better i could be using? also what about the diamond black and biomarine those are the only ones im not using.


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Mar 11, 2013)

Ok I'm finally getting started on my first vegan organic run. Im a noob to growing but I think I finally got most of this stuff worked out in my head.... fingers crossed. So anyway heres my new revised list of materials, suppliments, and amendments. Pics coming soon.

My Mix:
60% Sunshine #4 Advanced
20% Ancient Forest Humisoil
15% EWC (Natures Solution) 
5% Fir Bark
Cut with #3 large and chunky Perlite bringing the total perlite content to around 30%

Nutrients and Suppliments:
Bio Vega
Bio Flores
Bio Rhizotonic
Bio Boost
Cannazyme
Hygrozyme
GO CaMg+
Technaflora Soluble Seaweed
Humboldt Natural Bloom
Natures Nectar Nitrogen
BioAg's Ful-Power, Humisolve, and TM7
Mineral Matrix
Mayan Mycrozyme
Rare Earth Organic Silicate
Pro-Tek Silica
Xtreme Gardening Mykos and Mykos WP
Neem Oil
Unsulfured Blackstrap Molassas
Yucca Juice

Amendments: (could use some help on this one!!!)

Dolomite Lime
Kelp Meal
Alfalfa Meal
Soybean Meal
Vegan Mix
Sparetime Supply's Glacial Rock Dust
Greensand
Azomite
Neem Cake

I'm kinda confused about the amendments, particularly the Vegan Mix. Its a mixture of all of the amendments listed above, minus the glacial rock dust, dolomite lime, and neem cake. Anyway, my question to you guys is.... Do the individual components of the vegan mix put out the same charge as when added in on their own. Im wondering if I should just return the kelp meal, soybean meal, alfalfa meal, greensand, and azomite to the hydro store and just go with the vegan mix like Matt does. And if I do just go with the 1 mix, should I multiply the recommended application of the vegan mix by 5x? That would be 1x for every item in the mix. Or should I just go with all of them, using the vegan mix at the recommended application and decreasing the recommended applications of each individual components by a certain % to compensate for the Vegan Mix? Im kinda concerned that adding too many individual amendments will create something kinda like a vegan super soil cutting out my need for the biocanna nutes, and I really dont want to go that route.(not sure if thats a valid concern or not lol). I didn't realize how confusing this amendment business can be. Then again I might just be overthinking things. Anyhow, I could really use some help on this one, I really dont want to fuck up my first grow by not understanding the amendments I plan on using. That would definately be a noob move lol.


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## sunni (Mar 11, 2013)

just curious how many of the veganic growers are vegan themselves...


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## trichmasta (Mar 12, 2013)

I think what it comes down to, is the cleanliness and bio availability the a plant based regimen offers...do all organic growers only shop at Whole Foods or Trader Joes...? I doubt it...lol!


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## sunni (Mar 12, 2013)

trichmasta said:


> I think what it comes down to, is the cleanliness and bio availability the a plant based regimen offers...do all organic growers only shop at Whole Foods or Trader Joes...? I doubt it...lol!


it was just a question dude


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## trichmasta (Mar 12, 2013)

sunni said:


> it was just a question dude


its all good Sunni...just sharing thoughts...sorry if it came off harsh....

Plant based gardening has changed my patients and my life forever!!


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## Kalyx (Mar 12, 2013)

We grow veganic because it produces healthy plants with utmost resin quality. I myself am not vegan but if it yielded improved human quality then we should all go vegan. Holistic organic is good enough for me, I eat high quality foods just like my plants, and I do shop at TJs and the food whole. But animals are still on both our lists. The source and methods of production of the animal inputs are highly scrutinized to minimize low quality/ factory farm stuff from getting in, although I do believe microbes are a pretty strong bio filter they can't get rid of modern industrial tainting. I think it's kinda ironic when I meet an organic farmer who eats crap food. They feed their plants better than themselves.


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## sunni (Mar 12, 2013)

mmhm just curious whos all vegan and uses veganic growing, so i can find myself a base of people to share things with. I understand why non -vegans choose a veganic way of growing.


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## + WitchDoctor + (Mar 17, 2013)

sunni said:


> mmhm just curious whos all vegan and uses veganic growing, so i can find myself a base of people to share things with. I understand why non -vegans choose a veganic way of growing.


I'm vegan Sunni. Or more specifically I have a whole foods plant-based diet. So considering I've been sneaking in a liquid guano product all winter I may be the only person on this thread trying to feed myself better than I'm feeding my plants! Lol.

So growing using plant-based methods has been important to me for quite awhile now because of the way I eat and how I feed my children. I consider cannabis a food. And I use plant-based methods to grow food as well, even indoors a bit in the winter in open grow room spaces.  

Are you vegan as well?


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## + WitchDoctor + (Mar 17, 2013)

I finally got a response back through the Vegan Organic Network about using worm castings in a vegan grow. Some of you might not like the answer. Some of you might not care. Some of you, as I'm going to do, may opt for trying outdoor worm-composters this year to ensure that the worms are free to come and go if they don't like the compost.  I personally have ordered a package of 10,000 red worms where EVERY SINGLE ONE of them died from heat during the shipping process, it was horrific. And sometimes they just don't like the compost and want out.

*Subject:* Re: question about earthworm castings and worm compost


I think that as the worms that are producing the casts are captive it is a form of unnecessary exploitation. Allowing worms into an open compost is a different matter as they come or go as they please. I understand the conditions in wormeries can be hard to maintain and as a result the worms can suffer or die. I also have heard that there are direct links to the worms being used as fishing bait and have reservations about them being delivered in the post. My greatest objection however is against the purposeful breeding of the worms for our own desired outcomes.



Take Care


Rob


To avoid any arguments rising up about this again though, let's re-instate that in Kyle Kushman Veganics, he allows worm castings to be used. But the Vegan Organic Network does not. Either way it's a better bet than manure, and more ecologically responsible than harvesting guano. 

Have a great week everyone!


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## Kalyx (Mar 18, 2013)

Choice witch! 

How big does a living thing need to be a 'captive'? If you follow the network's logic is living soil container gardening all together not vegan? Since microbes and other microbeasties "cannot come and go as they please", are we "unnecessarily exploiting" them, and even causing whole communities of them to "suffer and go dormant", and basically "be purposefully bred for our own desired outcomes" of growing super delicious medical cannabis and vegis. If yes, is there a mini scale factory farm in each of our contained rootballs? Is the contained part the issue? Equal rights for all!

I am obviously playing devils advocate here. I myself try not to support factory farming (although i do eat out in USA) and love animals of all sizes. However I would like to hear from some folks on where/why we are drawing the "veganic" line in the living organic sand? Is it captivity or poopiness that need be avoided? What is the core issue to you?


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## foreverflyhi (Mar 20, 2013)

Hey not looking for arguments here, looking for articles from which these animal products are coming from? Example feather meal? Bome meal etc etc?


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## headtreep (Mar 21, 2013)

Come visit us here and get rid of those bottle over price nutes!

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols.html


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## Kalyx (Mar 22, 2013)

That's the way my gardens are going. "Simple" living microbial soils and sustainable cyclic practices for the win! Still got the bottles but they get replaced less and less as they run out. I'd rather buy organic inputs and make my own "juice" to feed microbial helpers and plants in the living mix.


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## trichmasta (Mar 23, 2013)

Only thing I'm using out of the bottle ATM is hi brix molasses...still looking for better food sources...

today shopping list: glacial rock dust and crab meal!!


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## personal lux (Apr 1, 2013)

for my veganic grow ive been using canna vega,rhizotonic,hygrozyme, cannazyme, technaflora soluable seaweed 1-1-16, humboldt bloom 0-10-0, bioflores, mineral matrix,ancient earth humic/fulvic, and GO calmag with OGtea for my vegan grow.


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## Kalyx (Apr 2, 2013)

Harvest yet? Liking it so far? Think it's worth the coin to purchase the whole shebang? Mix?


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 3, 2013)

Kalyx said:


> Choice witch!
> 
> How big does a living thing need to be a 'captive'? If you follow the network's logic is living soil container gardening all together not vegan? Since microbes and other microbeasties "cannot come and go as they please", are we "unnecessarily exploiting" them, and even causing whole communities of them to "suffer and go dormant", and basically "be purposefully bred for our own desired outcomes" of growing super delicious medical cannabis and vegis. If yes, is there a mini scale factory farm in each of our contained rootballs? Is the contained part the issue? Equal rights for all!
> 
> I am obviously playing devils advocate here. I myself try not to support factory farming (although i do eat out in USA) and love animals of all sizes. However I would like to hear from some folks on where/why we are drawing the "veganic" line in the living organic sand? Is it captivity or poopiness that need be avoided? What is the core issue to you?


Hey Kalyx, it's been awhile. My simple answer would be that worms are animals and most of the other beneficials in the soil aren't. Micro-organisms aren't animals. 

If I was going to answer on the level that all soil life is equal...or almost equal...then my argument would be that they are not kept prisoner in the container at all. They are free to leave at any point and try to make it on their own. The issue with keeping worms in a bin indoors would be that the bins are designed to make it almost impossible to escape if they so choose to. 

Also, I would say that with living soil container gardening, the microbes are doing what they're meant to do, they are helping a root system to grow a plant. Worms in a bin are only helping us get free nutrients for our plants. 

Now...worms in the container would be vegan. And I seem to have a worm in almost every pot lol. I even let my soil sit in a 30 gal barrel with the lid cracked for a month before reusing just to make sure the worms don't cook if they make it. Lol.

As far as poopiness...I'm cool with worm castings and I don't think of it as poop anyways. And if using worm castings grossed me out I'd have to close my eyes when hot composting too. I'd still never grow anything with manure if I can help it.

That's my two cents. I hadn't looked at the whole worm slavery aspect until this debate came up and I got the response...but it's inspired me to build some huge 3x3 outdoor worm composters next to the raised beds and I'm gonna try to keep them outside all year. They'll be able to come and go, but I'll feed them good enough to keep them around. And I'm gonna start doing some different types of cold composting for the first time this year.


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## Kalyx (Apr 4, 2013)

Worms seem to be the one thing that MOST organic growers agree help or are MANDATORY for good living soil. Thanks for keeping it vegan on here witch!


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## jstone1633 (Apr 27, 2013)

Can someone recommend a good vegan tea? One for veg and one for bloom? I grow in a mixture of sunshine advanced mix #4, ewc, and perlite so there't not much nutrients in what I start with and Id like to feed with something every watering if possible. I have a hydro store close by that carries just about anything you could recommend. All types of rock powders and meals in 2 to 5 lb jars. They also carry maxi crop. I also use the Roots organic line of nutes but would rather switch to mainly teas. I just recently got a good compost source that I plan on using every 3-4 waterings. Looking forward to feedback.


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## TrichomeBob (Apr 27, 2013)

Haven't really read much, upto the point where you said your using canna products, may be different as I've heard some companies have different formulas for each continent.

I started growing on Cannas organic line, with bio boost, gave that shit up after the bottles ran out for plant magics old timer line, no boosters (a bottle of mollases is cheaper and practically the same) and had much better results, but then, none have been better than making my own soil & teas now.

In Europe Cannas organic range is thought of as shite by most UK growers, their chemical line is good but its chemicals!

Cannas organic range, veganic if u want to call it, is overpriced bollox. 

Ive never gotten vegans personally, or even vegetarians, I know this is medicine, but I bet the majority of the people that smoke/ingest marihuana probably eat meat or animal products in some form, so why restrict from feeding them to ur plants, when for 100s if not 1000s of years theyve been fed to plants (I don't know for fact this, but its logical, horse manure, chicken shit will have some type of animal matter in them and people have fed this for years.
i can understand not wanting products with something gm in them, but in this day and age most things can be sourced, I know you can get blood meal and bone meal, thatis organic and gm free.

honestly I can understand organics, I grow organically, but vegan, come on. Next they'll be people saying, wait , don't cut the plant down, it has feelings too!


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## st0wandgrow (Apr 27, 2013)

jstone1633,

Are you looking to make an aerated compost tea (ACT)?

I hope you don't mind me interrupting your soap box speech TrichomeBob.....


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## jstone1633 (Apr 27, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> jstone1633,
> 
> Are you looking to make an aerated compost tea (ACT)?
> 
> I hope you don't mind me interrupting your soap box speech TrichomeBob.....


Well, I was going to keep my compost tea by itself and do a more of a fertilizer tea with the following watering.


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## TrichomeBob (Apr 27, 2013)

Hehe, no probs matey, it was just my daily rant, I've stopped blasting at the neighbours and do it online now, lol. Makes for a better home!


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## Bird Gymnastics (Apr 28, 2013)

Look at the first ever cannabis cup in America. Also look at all the past medicinal cups in the U.S. I am not saying hightimes is the greatest but thousands of people cant be wrong. Veganic is on a whole different spectrum when it comes to growing organically. If you don't believe so try it out. I've grown many different ways and myself, along with my patients can vouch, saying veganic medicine is just more pure. Plain and simple.

Dont hate me I am just giving my 2 cents about all of this.


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## headtreep (Apr 28, 2013)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> Look at the first ever cannabis cup in America. Also look at all the past medicinal cups in the U.S. I am not saying hightimes is the greatest but thousands of people cant be wrong. Veganic is on a whole different spectrum when it comes to growing organically. If you don't believe so try it out. I've grown many different ways and myself, along with my patients can vouch, saying veganic medicine is just more pure. Plain and simple.
> 
> Dont hate me I am just giving my 2 cents about all of this.


Hey Bird you should come and join us over at the ROLS and No Till thread homie. You can free yourself from all those bottles.


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## jstone1633 (Apr 29, 2013)

jstone1633 said:


> Well, I was going to keep my compost tea by itself and do a more of a fertilizer tea with the following watering.


Anyone want to share their tea?


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## headtreep (Apr 29, 2013)

jstone1633 said:


> Anyone want to share their tea?


There are plenty of tea recipes on the ROLS and No Till thread if your interested in checking there.


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## sunni (Apr 29, 2013)

TrichomeBob said:


> Could be the fact that its the new thing! First organics, now veganics, next we will all be sticking the colas up our asses so we dont have to chop them from the plant.
> 
> but even then you'll get the people saying that's suffocating and torturin the plant......what I'd say to them is this, how the hell you know what the plant thinks, it may like S&M!
> 
> ...


you have got to be kidding me....just another person who believes all the myths and lies about vegans. is it not possible you just knew UNHEALTHY PEOPLE and not unhealthy vegans, meat eaters can be unhealthy, but they can also be healthy people too no different than vegans
if you just eat fries and chips all the time youre not going to be a healthy vegan now are you?
same if you just eat mcdonalds on the time you wont be a healthy person. that doesnt mean all vegans are unhealthy , and ive never taken 1 supplement and im really healthy.


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## sullivan666 (May 30, 2013)

sunni said:


> you have got to be kidding me....just another person who believes all the myths and lies about vegans. is it not possible you just knew UNHEALTHY PEOPLE and not unhealthy vegans, meat eaters can be unhealthy, but they can also be healthy people too no different than vegans
> if you just eat fries and chips all the time youre not going to be a healthy vegan now are you?
> same if you just eat mcdonalds on the time you wont be a healthy person. that doesnt mean all vegans are unhealthy , and ive never taken 1 supplement and im really healthy.


I completely agree. You can be vegan and healthy, just as you can eat meat and be healthy. From my experience it is harder and more costly to be a healthy vegan, but it is certainly possible. After 5 years of veganism I decided to incorporate small amounts of certain animal products back into my diet. I do feel healthier now, no doubt, but I don't attribute it solely to seafood/meat, I acknowledge there were a lot of vegan foods I could have incorporated into my diet that may have given me similar results.

As far as the whole 'Veganics' growing method, I don't know much about it and I probably won't dive too much further into it. I've been using the methods outline in the ROLS thread and am being blown away by the results, not too mention the simplicity. And what's even more amazing is that ROLS applies to everything, not just one species. And for all those vegans out there who want not only the best quality smoke, but the best quality produce...


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## sunni (May 30, 2013)

i live off of like 90$ a month, i dont find it expensive, but it depends on the area. ect and if you eat a lot of things like "faux meat" or other wise


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## sullivan666 (May 30, 2013)

sunni said:


> i live off of like 90$ a month, i dont find it expensive, but it depends on the area. ect and if you eat a lot of things like "faux meat" or other wise


Damn, $90/month...do you grow most of your food?


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## sunni (May 30, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> Damn, $90/month...do you grow most of your food?


nah just herbs in summer at harvest i spend only 60$ a month, i just refrain from buying shit like faux meat and stuff those things get pricy


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## sullivan666 (May 30, 2013)

Expensive and loaded with unnecessary shit. For the first couple years I consumed a lot of the faux stuff, but then realized eating is similar to eating any other processed food product.

Do you mainly buy bulk grains/nuts/beans? If it's not too much trouble, could you summarize your staple foods? I'm curious because I may implement some of it in my diet as well.


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## sunni (May 30, 2013)

yeah ill pm you in a few , i dont wanna clutter up the thread.


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## Matt Rize (Jun 1, 2013)

sunni said:


> yeah ill pm you in a few , i dont wanna clutter up the thread.


haha all good, at least you are positive. 

former vegetarian. current localvore. kinda like my garden...!!! haha!

will post pics of the ranch plants soon. we have a dozen+ 150 gallon smartpots with the bottoms cut out, ready for the TGA ladies. the seeds went from a tent to the greenhouse... and proceeded to go into flower cycle. d'oh! its been a long month of coming back to veg but we are back in veg full time. and the males are culled. 

if anyone missed it... I gave up vegan organic gardening, to grow outdoors in local soil. I heard BioCanna is illegal in California now, that doesn't help. 
Hope you are all doing well. rize up


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## headtreep (Jun 1, 2013)

Matt Rize said:


> if anyone missed it... I gave up vegan organic gardening, to grow outdoors in local soil. I heard BioCanna is illegal in California now, that doesn't help.
> Hope you are all doing well. rize up


I heard the same thing but I'm not the one to speak for people. Cool for you Matt. I miss Cali. Good luck on your harvests!


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## HÃ¿dra (Jun 3, 2013)

Matt Rize said:


> haha all good, at least you are positive.
> 
> former vegetarian. current localvore. kinda like my garden...!!! haha!
> 
> ...


May i ask why Matt???
Is there some issue you found with Veganics?? or just a change from indoor to outdoor?? Just curious as to why you would champion something so hard for a few years than stop.


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## headtreep (Jun 3, 2013)

Hÿdra;9164918 said:


> May i ask why Matt???
> Is there some issue you found with Veganics?? or just a change from indoor to outdoor?? Just curious as to why you would champion something so hard for a few years than stop.


Hydra my interruption is that Matt has found a more natural way to do his growing. I think that is a great idea and as I remember reading a post or something one day stating that he doesn't like people that don't except change or trying things (something to that effect). You got to applaud the dude for wanting to advance. If he can use those bottles he is gonna do even better in the natural setting.

Hydra come check out this thread buddy: https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols.html


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## HÃ¿dra (Jun 3, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Hydra my interruption is that Matt has found a more natural way to do his growing. I think that is a great idea and as I remember reading a post or something one day stating that he doesn't like people that don't except change or trying things (something to that effect). You got to applaud the dude for wanting to advance. If he can use those bottles he is gonna do even better in the natural setting.
> 
> Hydra come check out this thread buddy: https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols.html


On page 4 , reading every word of it!!! Sounds great! i love the "Macguyver" aspect to it!


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## BrotherEsau (Jun 11, 2013)

Matt Rize said:


> if anyone missed it... I gave up vegan organic gardening, to grow outdoors in local soil. I heard BioCanna is illegal in California now, that doesn't help.
> Hope you are all doing well. rize up


What exactly do you mean native soil? Are you just planting in the ground without any amendments?

sorry if I missed something this thread is long


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## GANJGUY420 (Jun 12, 2013)

Alotta of effort in these articles man not going unnoticed! Keep up the hard work dude! Rep+++

Ganj


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## Shwagbag (Jun 12, 2013)

BrotherEsau said:


> What exactly do you mean native soil? Are you just planting in the ground without any amendments?
> 
> sorry if I missed something this thread is long


My guess is locally manufactured soil mixes. We have a great facility in northern Michigan that makes a huge variety of mixes. I watched the morning news today and the field reporter ate an egg cooked in a plastic back that was cooked inside the compost pile. LOL


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## BrotherEsau (Jun 12, 2013)

I'm just confused as to why he wouldn't apply veganics to his outdoor. seems pretty obvious.

then again guano is the *shit*


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## BrotherEsau (Jun 14, 2013)

GANJGUY420 said:


> Your might just be more dumb than you think obviously. Not getting the point much here are ya? The man is expressing how clean the meds are due to animal derivitives being replaced by plant derived material. Plain n simple. If you don't get that then you don't know shit about cultivating this wonderful herb and you should go do your homework before you down someone else. 420GOD..... Get that shit outta here too! Much love get your shit together peace
> 
> 
> Ganj



I've been vegan since 1996 so I'm pretty sure I am familiar with what he means. I'm just wondering he is not using this system of growing with outdoor. he said he has abandoned veganics for native soil...my question is what exactly he meant by native soil

you can totally use all vegan amendments in an outdoor environment.

and why all the hostility? did you not understand what I meant by my original post?

you need to relax brother


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## headtreep (Jun 14, 2013)

You guys ready to quit playin with those bottles? Farming that make sense? Check this out https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols.html

This thread is pretty much done with imo. I'm sure the OP would agree.


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## snap1234 (Jun 17, 2013)

headtreep said:


> You guys ready to quit playin with those bottles? Farming that make sense? Check this out https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols.html
> 
> This thread is pretty much done with imo. I'm sure the OP would agree.


And here is a link for a condensed version, http://forum.seeddepot.nl/showthread.php?4100-Recycled-Organic-Living-Soil-(ROLS)-and-No-Till-Thread, but do yourself a favor and read the original thread at ICMag if you got the time...

microbes for the win!


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Jun 24, 2013)

ya we get it bro.... "check out the ROLS and No Tills thread".... "quit playing with those bottles".... for christ sake headtreep, you just said the same thing for like 5 consecutive posts. and lol, just because your into another style of growing, doesn't mean this thread is dead. get over yourself homie.


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## Kalyx (Jun 29, 2013)

I think what HT is trying to get across is there are many ways to grow. Of course he is bias toward the method he currently uses. He is trying to share info on how to do indoor without paying for overpriced inputs and media at a grow shop. He is trying to help you. When I started veganics I worked at a shop and the products (at cost!) still seemed priciey. ROLS method works well, is cheaper and the plants are happier now that my biocanna jugs remain closed. Our understanding is now of indoor container based agriculture, not just industry driven hype about growing weed. 
Matt has moved on from Veganics because we are all on the same journey and all learning to grow danker together; for less money and less damage to the earth from capitalist extraction (ie greed). All the plants in the woods do not need a grow shop (or even a farmer for that matter) and neither does cannabis. If veganics is working well for you and you can afford it (don't mind sharing a chunk of your hard earned income with dudes at grow shop) then go on with it. We quit the veganics because we found something that makes more sense to OUR gardens and OUR needs!

Matts real contribution here and to the community at large is ICE WAX and high end IWE tech. Plus shatter bros if you dab the dark side.
This thread is essentially dead because Matt is less present as he is so busy working and learning in his Living Soil Organic outdoor greenhouse IWE grows! RIZE UP! (Meaning Rize is always stepping up his game when he learns more/better/cheaper ways to cultivate.


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Jul 1, 2013)

I've read through the ROLS thread and I have absolutely nothing against it, nor do I have anything against furthering one's knowledge of organic gardening. And I definitely agree that we are all on the same journey for all the same reasons. I just don't understand why everyone is so quick to abandon the concept of veganics. I feel like, as soon as Matt posted that he had moved onto greenhouse organics, everyone started to feel like veganics was dead and no longer cutting edge or interesting. I have no doubt that the ROLS method produces amazing quality plants, and costs a hell of a lot less money. I've actually learned quite a bit from reading it. Having said that, I really don't believe that the results are better, or that they are in any way more astonishing then that of veganics. Also, I'd be willing to bet that the end product doesn't taste as good or burn as clean, however that's just my unfounded opinion. I'm still fairly new to growing but my plants are as healthy and as pretty to look at as anything I've seen anywhere. It's very possible that one day in the future, when I fully understand all the concepts of true, do-it-all-yourself organics, and have the necessary time and energy that is takes to make it work, I may well change things up. However, when that day comes, I definitely wont be using any animal based or synthetics products of any sort. I think that a lot of people have forgotten the beauty and purity of veganics whether bottled or not. When I first stumbled upon this thread, I felt that I found something special and revolutionary to the world of cannabis. The ROLS and Veganics thread CAN coexist in their own right. Even though Matt has moved on to other things, I don't understand why anyone would want to deem this thread as dead, thus ending the discussion and any further knowledge that could be obtained here. I have a feeling that Matt isn't forever done with veganics. He may just be focusing on a growing method that's better suited for greenhouse growing. He himself said that veganics is a higher form of INDOOR organic gardening. Im sure that the cost of feeding 10 foot plants in 150 gallons smart pots would be totally impractical using expensive products like Bio Canna. I could be very wrong about this, but I feel that if Matt ever made the decision to start gardening indoors again, he may very well end up switching back to some form of plant based nutrition. That's just an opinion, and I have no idea if there's any truth to it or not. However, based on Matt's initial passion for veganics, I don't think that it's something that he's just going to permanently discard. Just my opinion though.


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 1, 2013)

SeniorFrostyKush said:


> I've read through the ROLS thread and I have nothing against it, nor do I have anything against furthering one's knowledge of organic gardening. And I definitely agree that we are all on the same journey for all the same reasons. I just don't understand why everyone is so quick to abandon the concept of veganics. I feel like, as soon as Matt posted that he had moved onto greenhouse organics, everyone felt as if the concept of veganics was dead, and no longer cutting edge or interesting. I have no doubt that the ROLS method produces amazing quality plants, and costs a hell of a lot less money. I've actually learned quite a bit from reading it. Having said that, I really don't believe that the results are better, or that they are in any way more astonishing then that of veganics. Also, I'd be willing to bet the end product doesn't taste as good or burn as clean, however that is just my unfounded opinion. I'm still fairly new to growing but my plants are as healthy and pretty to look at as anything I've seen anywhere. It's very possible that one day in the future, when I fully understand all the concepts of true, do-it-all-yourself organics, I may well change things up.* However, when that day comes, I definitely wont be using any animal based or synthetics products of any sort.* I think that a lot of people have forgotten the beauty and purity of veganics whether bottled or not. When I first stumbled upon this thread, I felt that I found something special and revolutionary to the world of cannabis. The ROLS and veganic threads CAN coexist in their own right. Even though Matt has moved on to other things, I don't know why anyone would want to deem this thread as dead, thus ending the discussion and any further knowledge that could be obtained here. I have a feeling that Matt isn't forever done with veganics. He might just be focusing on growing greenhouse bud ATM. He himself said that veganics is a higher form of INDOOR organic gardening. Im sure that the cost of feeding 10 foot plants in 150 gallons smart pots would be totally impractical using expensive products like Bio Canna. I could be very wrong about this, but I have a feeling that if Matt decides to start gardening indoors again, he may very well switch back to some form of plant based nutrition. That's just an opinion, and I have no idea there's any truth to it or not. However, based on Matt's initial passion for veganics, I don't think that it's something that he's just going to permanently discard. Just my opinion though.


You don't have to use any animal based or synthetic products to grow in a living organic soil. In fact, most proponents of ROLS discourage the use of animal based products such as blood meal and bone meal. Inputs such as alfalfa meal, kelp meal, rock dusts, etc will be the foundation of your soil.

Using expensive bottled products of any kind is not necessary to achieve great results.


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Jul 4, 2013)

I'm not sure if anyone posted this link or not yet. Tim Wilson, the compost tea guru, has a current and newly revised list of information detailing his AACT making methods. He hasn't changed a whole lot. Just a few small revisions in his recipe and few things that he no longer advises using in your brew. Scroll down the page to an article called, "More On Compost Tea (2013)". http://www.microbeorganics.com/#What_is_Compost_Tea Here's Tim's Slightly Revised Recipe (5 Gallon Brew): EWC= 1.904 Cups ( .38 of a cup per gallon). Blackstrap Molasses= 6.4 TBSP (1.28 TBSP per gallon). That's all that he recommends using. No more kelp meal. No humic or fulvic, and he also only recommends using fish hydrolysate if your looking to make a fungal dominate brew. I never read his book, but the thing I'm having trouble understanding is the fact that he advises to NOT dilute the tea after brewing and to ONLY follow up with water "if necessary". Whatever that means. I've seen Matt post more than a few times, to dilute the brew by 20-30x before watering, so I'm a little stumped on how to go about things now. I sure as hell don't want have to buy more air pumps and stones, and have to brew 3 times as much tea just to feed my plants. Sounds weird to me.


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## Rising Moon (Jul 5, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> You don't have to use any animal based or synthetic products to grow in a living organic soil. In fact, most proponents of ROLS discourage the use of animal based products such as blood meal and bone meal. Inputs such as alfalfa meal, kelp meal, rock dusts, etc will be the foundation of your soil.
> 
> Using expensive bottled products of any kind is not necessary to achieve great results.


For reals...

Quality compost being the heart of the system. That being said, the best compost I have ever seen/used/made was entirely from grass clippings, wildflowers, clover and alfalfa. It was a 2 year process, but the end result was incredible.

Add some kelp, neem, karanja, nettle meal, rock dust and volcanic rock, and you have yourself a tote ideal for a ROLS system...

No animal based manures required, NO BOTTLES and entirely vegan.


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 5, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> For reals...
> 
> *Quality compost being the heart of the system*. That being said, the best compost I have ever seen/used/made was entirely from grass clippings, wildflowers, clover and alfalfa. It was a 2 year process, but the end result was incredible.
> 
> ...


Absolutely! I consider it a given, but I suppose it's worth repeating.


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## Kalyx (Jul 7, 2013)

SFK - go with MMs recommendations. Tim knows way more about tea than most of us ever will. Matt uses his scope to look at trics, Tim's is focused on microbe populations and he understands that a good tea is alive and in balance, not made of inoculant products etc.

IMO the main reason this thread is dead is that the OP has moved on down the path on the journey of growing. From my perspective, Matt is not into veganics due to marketing reasons. He was in it for quality plants, now because of General Hydroponics and Kyle Kushman marketing their products based on being veganic, why should Matt advertise for them? (GO and kyles OG tea, lol) He was a big part of helping kyle dial it in, and the main difference between the two guys was/is SCIENCE. Kyle knows from experience using bottled products and runs with the grow shop dogmas for the main part. Matt was responsible for teaching kyle early on about the science behind using microbes to grow better indoor cannabis. 

Science is what also sets living organic soils like ROLS apart. These "higher organic" styles are based in traditions that have existed long before the grow shop PK booster crazes, and long before modern science. Simply, these styles connect with human agricultural history, and cannabis has long played a part in many of these practices. Real agricultural knowhow and an understanding of how plants thrive in nature have been the basis, and modern science a powerful tool in creating real horticultural knowledge and creating plants out of what grows and is harvested all around us, no matter where we live or if we garden outdoor, greenhouse, or under thouies! Knowledge is power... thanks RIU and to the whole online garden community. Cannabis is just a vegetable and IME most modern gardens would benefit a TON from listening to our grannies about how they know how to grow vegis, in the ground without bottles, bubblers, etc. Mine sure has! Oh and its much cheaper and easier as well. Danks Matt for enlightening others with your threads, and showing us that good gardeners change what they do as they learn more about what they are doing and the natural processes of our home.


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## hyroot (Jul 7, 2013)

Ive tried to go vegan in my grow but its hard to find a good source of Phos. Even with soft rock phosphate and cotton seed meal i would still get deficiencies. I do not use bottled nutes either. The only animal product I use is crab / shrimp meal and sometimes fish meal. No blood meal, no bone meal, and definitely no guano or manure. I have a friend that after 20 something years of organic growing, he developed a severe allergy to guano. He can't smoke anything grown with guano. That made me stop using guano / manure.. I also do rols method too. Its all about the bennies and enzymes... some good vermicompost and teas and you are good.


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## Cann (Jul 7, 2013)

hyroot - try comfrey or kelp for your phos....1/2 cup per cuft of each. i'd be surprised if you are still having issues after that.....a good topdress of comfrey should do the trick if you are mid-cycle and don't have time to reamend your soil. 

IMO another reason this thread is dead is because bio-canna is illegal now in a bunch of states....lmao

mods...can we make this un-sticky? seems appropriate at this point, especially now that matt has renounced veganics....

how many folks out there are still using bio-canna and following kyles advice? hopefully not too many...


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## hyroot (Jul 7, 2013)

Cann said:


> hyroot - try comfrey or kelp for your phos....1/2 cup per cuft of each. i'd be surprised if you are still having issues after that.....a good topdress of comfrey should do the trick if you are mid-cycle and don't have time to reamend your soil.
> 
> IMO another reason this thread is dead is because bio-canna is illegal now in a bunch of states....lmao
> 
> ...



I think you misread that. I was saying phos is hard to find not potassium. Every kelp I have ever gotten or seen does not have any phos in it. Kelp does have a lot of potassium and iron and other trace minerals. Some have a little nitrogen.


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## Cann (Jul 7, 2013)

i think you are getting a bit caught up in the whole N-P-K dogma....with enough humic content and a few amendments you should be fine. i don't have anything in my soil for phosphorous specifically...just kelp, neem, comfrey, rock dusts, vermicompost, and crab meal (the only thing thats not "vegan") and my plants are jammin. so unless the crab is supplying all my phosphorous then I don't see how "vegan" soil can be lacking...maybe i'm missing something though. 

what kind of humus are you using?

what are the signs of "phosphorous deficiency" that you are seeing?

building a very high quality soil without animal additions (except worms and tiny creatures) shouldn't be difficult..you definitely shouldn't be seeing any deficiencies


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## hyroot (Jul 7, 2013)

crab meal has phos and nitrogen. same with shrimp meal ( can't find that locally anymore) rock dust does too.

I know plants don't need that much npk. But they need some. Npk rating is still a representation of what is in or not in nutrients. Kelp has zero phos. Comfrey is like vermicompost. What you feed it is whats in there.

i use eco scraps compost ( better and different mix if you saw my other post in rols) plus my own vermicompost (not much ) for humic. I feed them kelp all kinds of veggies, crab meal, and afalfa meal and tea bags. i dumped the last little bit of dr earth tomato & vegtable in there too. and use the eco scraps for bedding. The end result of composting is humus / humic.

I don't see deficiencies on all strains, just the northern lights and hindu skunk, the chees berry and new phenos of northern lights is fine. its yellowing and browning starting from the tips and moving inward. then the tips turn crunchy and taco downward if it gets that far.


lower right corner in first pic and fan leaves in other pic


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## sunni (Jul 7, 2013)

Cann said:


> hyroot - try comfrey or kelp for your phos....1/2 cup per cuft of each. i'd be surprised if you are still having issues after that.....a good topdress of comfrey should do the trick if you are mid-cycle and don't have time to reamend your soil.
> 
> IMO another reason this thread is dead is because bio-canna is illegal now in a bunch of states....lmao
> 
> ...


no. just because matt isn't using veganics doesn't mean others aren't, we are supposed to give information for everyone, this will continue to be stickied because it has good information, just because someone stops doing something doesn't mean we unsticky it. ive been very fair in this forum and sticked something at users requests I will keep this up as not everyone does the same thing in organics and we can for sure have this stickied if we can have others.


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## Rayne (Jul 13, 2013)

sunni said:


> mmhm just curious whos all vegan and uses veganic growing, so i can find myself a base of people to share things with. I understand why non -vegans choose a veganic way of growing.


Old post to reply to, but I don't care.

I am vegan and have been for a few years now.


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 13, 2013)

sunni said:


> just curious how many of the veganic growers are vegan themselves...


I'm trying to be (can't give up the damn cheese)! 

My last couple batches of soil are completely vegan ... if you don't consider worm poop an animal source. The plants seem to be loving the vegan lifestyle!


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## sunni (Jul 13, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm trying to be (can't give up the damn cheese)!
> 
> My last couple batches of soil are completely vegan ... if you don't consider worm poop an animal source. The plants seem to be loving the vegan lifestyle!


They say cheese is the,hardest try daiya shreds


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## GreenSanta (Jul 14, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm trying to be (can't give up the damn cheese)!
> 
> My last couple batches of soil are completely vegan ... if you don't consider worm poop an animal source. The plants seem to be loving the vegan lifestyle!


read china study if you havent read it. I do eat cheese but not on a daily basis ! But when you read this book it makes it easy to go without it for at least a month!! until you forget lol


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 14, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> read china study if you havent read it. I do eat cheese but not on a daily basis ! But when you read this book it makes it easy to go without it for at least a month!! until you forget lol


I did read that! I'm banking on being one of the rats that only gets 5% of my diet from animal based protein .... if memory serves me correct I think those rats avoided the cancerous tumors.


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## hyroot (Jul 15, 2013)

Im half way there. I stopped eating red meat about 15 years ago. Stopped eating processed food about 4 years ago. I still eat birds and fish though. Everything is cooked fresh. I grow all my own fruits and veggies. Except watermelon and bananas and corn. I get those from the farmers market.


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## GreenDyl (Jul 17, 2013)

Hey Matt, haven't tried veganics and I actually don't even smoke but mainly just grow hydro with heavy 16 looking to try going veganic on a small scale for new patients with compromised immune systems. Definitely goi g to read through this entire thread before going out and buying anything and I'm only on page 11.

One thing I did want to offer another theory or perspective on is your issue with perlite and how you say it's dead space for microbial life. While this might be true, is the majority of the microbial life that is helping your plant with nute uptake, defense from pathogens, and increased resistance to toxicity is actually taking place directly on the roots? And we know roots thrive in spaces where there is more oxygen. So therefore more perlite=more oxygen=more roots=more space for mycos to attach.

Again before anyone starts to hate, this is just an idea of mine not backed up by any scientific finding. The one thing I can say to back this up is that these bacteria and fungi found on the roots of our plants have a mutualistic relationship meaning one will not do as well without both of them being there. So if you just have mycos off in a chunk of soil with no roots in it what good is it doing anyway?

just wondering what you and everyone thinks of this idea.


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## GreenDyl (Jul 17, 2013)

I know there are a lot of other bacteria and fungi that break down the soil aka why we let our soil cook, but if your adding water soluble nutrients you aren't really relying on those bacteria that break down the soil without the roots being there. Seems like you would have more to benefit from the bacteria and fungi that were directly on the roots.


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## BayBudsTheFinest (Jul 25, 2013)

Where should a noob start? Help me out please!


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Jul 26, 2013)

start with a peat based medium. go get either Bio Canna, or General Organics veganic nutrients. Bio Canna is better by far. get some all vegan compost and earthworm castings. just make sure the worms weren't fed any animal products. theres a brand called Natures Solution that makes some awesome vegan earth worm castings. start making compost teas and feed your plants with them at least once a week instead of nutes. and most importantly.... read the thread. you'll learn everything you could ever want to know about veganics by reading through to the end.


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Aug 1, 2013)

you could also go the ROLS No Till route if your not into bottled nutes. it does however require some experience and agricultural know-how.


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## 'ome Grown (Aug 2, 2013)

I'm a veganic grower (my whole garden is veganic - fruit trees, veggies and flowers) BECAUSE I am vegan...

Cheese wasn't that hard for me to give up, but apparently it is quite common for people to find it hard to give up.


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## Rrog (Aug 6, 2013)

What troubles me about the China Study is how does one get along without much protein? My sister is a Registered Dietician and I'm a Bio / Chem major and I don't get it. 

I eat a higher protein diet primarily of raw egg whites and milk. I've lost a lot of weight while maintaining muscle mass. In a Kefir shake that I make daily.


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## sunni (Aug 6, 2013)

Rrog said:


> What troubles me about the China Study is how does one get along without much protein? My sister is a Registered Dietician and I'm a Bio / Chem major and I don't get it.
> 
> I eat a higher protein diet primarily of raw egg whites and milk. I've lost a lot of weight while maintaining muscle mass. In a Kefir shake that I make daily.


the trouble is people over eat protein, so if youre just a regular guy/gal not doing an extensive work out routine , you only need 56-70 grams of protein per day.
We have been told over the years we need protein, protein, protein, to eat more meat cause thats the ONLY place you get protein from
when in reality its not true, excessive amounts of protein like anything else is bad for you, and you can get MORE protein less calories,fat,saturated fat, more vitamins from beans, & legumes than you can from a steak which has MORE calories,fat,sat fat,chlorestorel , and less vitamins 

People are disgustingly obsessed with protein for some reason


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## Rrog (Aug 6, 2013)

That's more protein than one might think. 20 egg whites, for example. I would agree that meat is not all it's cracked up to be, being feeling creatures as well as pumped with man-made problems, stress, etc. Really not cool. Contrarily, veggies rock. I'm just not seeing a problem with responsibly cared for chickens or pork or even beef on occasion.

I tend to take a moderate approach. Some balance and variety.


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## sunni (Aug 6, 2013)

Rrog said:


> That's more protein than one might think. 20 egg whites, for example. I would agree that meat is not all it's cracked up to be, being feeling creatures as well as pumped with man-made problems, stress, etc. Really not cool. Contrarily, veggies rock. I'm just not seeing a problem with responsibly cared for chickens or pork or even beef on occasion.
> 
> I tend to take a moderate approach. Some balance and variety.


no i dont see a problem with hunting and eating personally its better for the human and the whole animal is put to use , the animal also lived a wonderful healthy life
personally i choose not to eat animals because now in this time and day of life and civilization i am not starving i have a brain and i dont wear a loincloth and carve out arrowheads, lol i have a choice i choose not too

but the factory farming needs to go


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## Rrog (Aug 6, 2013)

I think there could be a real problem eating stressed animals. Cortisol. Pigs are fed anxiety-inducing hormones so they stay in their pens and vibrate fat off. You support that when you eat a chop, and you may well eat hormones as well. 

As you said, not as much the animal as the humans that raise them


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 6, 2013)

Rrog said:


> That's more protein than one might think. 20 egg whites, for example. I would agree that meat is not all it's cracked up to be, being feeling creatures as well as pumped with man-made problems, stress, etc. Really not cool. Contrarily, veggies rock. I'm just not seeing a problem with responsibly cared for chickens or pork or even beef on occasion.
> 
> I tend to take a moderate approach. Some balance and variety.



As with most things moderation is key. I take the same approach to soy-based products. It's one of the worst GMO offenders, so I really try to limit it in my diet. There is a ton of protein in nuts, beans, legumes, eggs, yogurt, etc so I have peace of mind in not eating meat, and really not eating much soy either.


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## Rrog (Aug 6, 2013)

I eat a lot of nuts, cultured milk (kefir) and egg whites. Less meat than previously. Now I may have a plate of veggies with some meat on the side or mixed.


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## snowboarder396 (Aug 6, 2013)

I'll agree that factory farmed and caged animals are not good to eat. I know protein can be found high in beans and legumes, however I buy all ny chicken at the farmers market where the vendor I buy from has free range chickens, no antibiotics or any other injections of any kind. I also hunt and fish, grow what I can of my own food. However I will never ever give up meat! Not because I possibly couldn't but because I won't... I love meat to much and it is tasty. Doesn't mean I'm out shape either I stay away from fast food as much possible and as I said I choose my sources of all things ingested and when I do buy I tend by from farmers and ranchers of what I don't grow myself.


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## Rrog (Aug 6, 2013)

I buy the least stressed critters I can to eat. Same as what you do. I agree. Moderation is all.


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 6, 2013)

snowboarder396 said:


> I'll agree that factory farmed and caged animals are not good to eat. I know protein can be found high in beans and legumes, however I buy all ny chicken at the farmers market where the vendor I buy from has free range chickens, no antibiotics or any other injections of any kind. I also hunt and fish, grow what I can of my own food. *However I will never ever give up meat! Not because I possibly couldn't but because I won't... I love meat to much and it is tasty.* Doesn't mean I'm out shape either I stay away from fast food as much possible and as I said I choose my sources of all things ingested and when I do buy I tend by from farmers and ranchers of what I don't grow myself.


I said the exact same thing at one point in my life. Your views may still evolve from where you're at ... or not.

Having kids changed my perspective a bit. I worry about the world we're leaving for them. Eating meat, no matter it's source, is supporting an unsustainable industry imo. The worlds population is exploding, and meat is going to become a VERY expensive delicacy in our lifetime. The oceans are being over-fished, and livestock consume too much grain for their return of meat. 

Health and ethical reasons aside, I don't feel that meat consumption is a good thing for our planet.


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## Rrog (Aug 6, 2013)

I suspect it's the most profitable. So we're marketed to and told to eat big steak. Same thing DeBeers did with diamonds. As a species, we are very easily led. Sad to say. 

But I would like to dry age a bone-in prime rib for 30 days and cook only to rare over a charcoal fire at 600F before I die.


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## snowboarder396 (Aug 6, 2013)

I don't over eat meat and I certainly wouldn't take more then NEC. That's why I hunt/ fish my own or get it from a good source. The big fish industry and cattle ranchers of course are bad.. then again look at big ag. Or big pharma. 

Imagine if people raised there own chicjens, rabbits, hell even small tilapia pond for fish.. how much more sustainable life would be and cutting back and the big industries that are depleting everything.. the food source isn't the problem.... It's people, and people that live in cities expecting everything to be handed to them. Including cheap supermarkets that are selling them meat or fish from these big companies... Asian countries like chins and Japan are illegally fishing and over fishing... Killing whales and sharks by the thousands on purpose or in their 30-60 mile drag nets that make it to late. And everything's pulled up via conveyor belt.. 

It's all about sustainability and lifestyle. I just don't live outside my means while most others these days especially in the cities big cities just don't care and live a more robotic lifestyle so to speak, don't care where there stuff comes from or how as long as they get it they don't wanna know, and that is the problem..


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## 'ome Grown (Aug 14, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> As with most things moderation is key. I take the same approach to soy-based products. It's one of the worst GMO offenders, so I really try to limit it in my diet. There is a ton of protein in nuts, beans, legumes, eggs, yogurt, etc so I have peace of mind in not eating meat, and really not eating much soy either.


Just don't buy the GMO soy products...to be honest, I haven't seen any of them where I shop - they are all organic (and that is just the normal supermarkets). From what I understand, the GMO soy is animal fodder...and they need a lot of it which is why the Amazon is being cut down - for soy bean farms...

One thing that hits a nerve with me is gym junkies that tell me that I need meat if I want to be big. Oh really? Stop drinking your high protein shakes and see how much meat helps you.

As a rule, I try and trace back whatever I am eating to the soil. I recommend that everyone does this as well. It is easier for vegetables and fruit than for meat. Try and stay away from the carbon-less fertilizer filled farms producing mono-cultures of grain to be fed to animals in captivity that require antibiotics to live in such toxic conditions. If you eat wild animals or animals that have eaten well, that is by far a healthier option than eating the 'grain fed beef' that is basically everywhere.

Then limit it to what is within 100 kilometres of your city.

Then only consume what you would happily harvest (i.e. picking fruit, digging up potatoes and slaughtering pigs etc).

IMO one must know the whole process (starting from the soil - as everything we eat relies on it) of where our food is coming from and made.


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## 'ome Grown (Aug 14, 2013)

snowboarder396 said:


> However I will never ever give up meat! Not because I possibly couldn't but because I won't... I love meat to much and it is tasty.


Sounds just like me when I was younger. I thought I would never give up meat, it just tasted so good. Why would I want to deprive myself of something that brought me so much joy (even though I knew that other beings had to suffer). Other animals get to kill and eat, why can't I. Isn't it a bit like a priest swearing to never have sex? Why would one do that, deprive themselves of something on this earth that is just so damn good.

[video=youtube;jX2btaDOBK8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX2btaDOBK8[/video]

Please have a watch of that vid.


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 14, 2013)

'ome Grown said:


> Sounds just like me when I was younger. I thought I would never give up meat, it just tasted so good. Why would I want to deprive myself of something that brought me so much joy (even though I knew that other beings had to suffer). Other animals get to kill and eat, why can't I. Isn't it a bit like a priest swearing to never have sex? Why would one do that, deprive themselves of something on this earth that is just so damn good.
> 
> [video=youtube;jX2btaDOBK8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX2btaDOBK8[/video]
> 
> Please have a watch of that vid.



Interesting video. I really related to what he was saying about training yourself to enjoy healthy food. Years ago I would have never considered kale, or broccoli delicious. Now I find myself craving, and really enjoying those foods. It's amazing how our brains work.


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## Rrog (Aug 14, 2013)

You're exactly right Stowe. Further, I think you lose the Twinkie craving once your brain has shifted gears.


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 15, 2013)

Rrog said:


> You're exactly right Stowe. Further, I think you lose the Twinkie craving once your brain has shifted gears.


I never got the twinkie craving thankfully!


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## snowboarder396 (Aug 16, 2013)

'ome Grown said:


> Sounds just like me when I was younger. I thought I would never give up meat, it just tasted so good. Why would I want to deprive myself of something that brought me so much joy (even though I knew that other beings had to suffer). Other animals get to kill and eat, why can't I. Isn't it a bit like a priest swearing to never have sex? Why would one do that, deprive themselves of something on this earth that is just so damn good.
> 
> [video=youtube;jX2btaDOBK8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX2btaDOBK8[/video]
> 
> Please have a watch of that vid.


It's not that I couldn't go without meat.. it's I choose not to.. as I said before I eat all organic grass fed, no antibiotics.. as well as wild game such as deer and elk. I'd like to also point out meat is not bad what do ever! As long you eat a good source of it such as I've stated it's not bad. I grow my own veggies and buy from farmers market where I know the vendors I use don't use chemicals, pesticides, gmos etc. And just to point out gmo doesn't have to do with the soil it's genetically engineered and lab created seeds/plants that are spliced with other plant DNA or even animal DNA. I would never eat anything that contains gmos or associated with the Monsanto corporation.. I think meat gets a bad rep. Most vegetarians or vegans don't even know how to eat properly not saying that's any of you here but that's the facts. Yes certain veggies have more protein then meat. But I like chicken and fish and even red meat. I eventtually will raise my own chickens , rabbits, and hunt for the rest I also plan start bee keeping more of having a little homestead only buying in town what I can't do myself being more self sufficient .


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## Rrog (Aug 16, 2013)

Meat from an animal that had a natural and/or wild diet, living without stress, able to run around is not the same as what I buy in the store. 

My primary protein is egg white, and I'll have my own chickens soon to gather eggs.


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 16, 2013)

snowboarder: I think you're doing it the right way. I've never taken issue with someone that hunts or supports local farms for their meat .... where you can actually see with your own eyeballs how the animals are kept. As far as meat being good for you, that remains to be proven. We know it's not a *necessary* part of our diet, but there are many that feel that meat (of any quality) is actually detrimental to your health. I'm not an expert on the topic, so I'll keep my 2 cents in my pocket.

But what you have to realize is that the VAST majority of meat eaters aren't doing things like you are. They're either ignorant, apathetic, or it just isn't practical for them to drive down the road to the local farm. People in cities rely on restaurants and grocery stores to provide their meat. Most of that is factory farm stuff.


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## 'ome Grown (Aug 17, 2013)

snowboarder396 said:


> And just to point out gmo doesn't have to do with the soil it's genetically engineered and lab created seeds/plants that are spliced with other plant DNA or even animal DNA.


It most certainly does have repercussions on the soil. There are no GMO seeds used in organic farming or polycultures. They are there to battle against nature, allow farmers to use pesticides and herbicides that do not effect those GMO seeds. GMO seeds are grown in monocultures using fertilizers that are inorganic, that do not allow the soil to thrive but rather just feed that specific plant. 

So yes, GMO is mucking around with the DNA of the plants, not the soil. But if one is growing GMO seeds, then they are not looking after the soil and making it fertile rather caught up in the business of agriculture and trying to balance their inputs and outputs to make that small profit (and farmers really do get peanuts).


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## 'ome Grown (Aug 17, 2013)

Agreed. Snowboarder, if I were to eat meat again, then I would be following your route. Eating grass fed, organic meat from farmers markets, hunting for your own or raising your own.

Personally I can't do it on a spiritual level. But I respect the right for someone to make an educated decision on what is going into their body. I think we can agree that the far majority of omnivores are just following the dopamine high illustrated in that video.


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## Dank Raptor (Aug 21, 2013)

well this thread has changed. I eat meat because im hungry. (and Im a Raptor)


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Oct 10, 2013)

anyone got some pics of their vegan garden or nugshots?


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## Got4m2e0 (Oct 18, 2013)

R3DROCk9 said:


> aye any of yaw kno wut dis might be?? i get it every once in a while....i have a few ideas as to wut it may be, bu at this point i dont want to influence any new opinions that yaw may have....thanx
> 
> 
> btw: cocoNot substrate, biocanna nutes, yip, yip ,yay yay, yuuuuuuView attachment 1689010View attachment 1689011



looks ok so like light bleaching. If under HID you may want to raise the light a little. Remember that every inch makes a big difference with HID


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 18, 2013)

Got4m2e0 said:


> looks ok so like light bleaching. If under HID you may want to raise the light a little. *Remember that every inch makes a big difference* with HID


That's what she said


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## doogleef (Oct 23, 2013)

[video=youtube;Di7V9sAc_vY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di7V9sAc_vY[/video]

Hey Guys,

Here is my garden at day 15 bloom using the special sauce from ogtea.com. I'm really impressed with the results so far. I'm running a video journal over in the Colorado patients forum if you want to drop in... .

https://www.rollitup.org/colorado-patients/742014-feelgoodfarms-video-journal-veganic-grow.html


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## DEM 840 (Oct 26, 2013)

Hi y'all. I have been running veganics since we moved to a far from anything Homestead (1995), and nothing else compares! Our strains are rejuvenated every time they are cloned. I do think it is necessary to include raw material (examples: Sun leaves, Nettles, Comfrey, grass clippings, alfalfa, etc...) in your tea blend. This is to cut down costs, gives your plants living chlorophyll filled nutrients and add living beneficial bacterias into your tea blends that you might not find in dried and mass produced facilities.AND, important to be careful not to be swayed by the word veganics and just think that the company is conscious and concerned about residues. Plant based materials,( not rock phosphates) are what the microbes need in order to thrive. Look for amendments that are herb based. It is a paradigm shift...Feed your microbes and let your microbes feed your plants. ANYTHING that directly "feeds" your plants is bypassing the organic process of living teas and soils. Bypassing the natural process of the plant's uptake will result in strain die off and decreased health of the plant and your soils.We get all of our N-P-K from herb roots, leaves and seeds. Plants do feed plants, that is the natural process. Rock phosphates are a dangerous industry and do contain many residues. If you are looking for pure medicine, might want to cut any phosphates. Your potassium and phosphorus can be supplemented generously with herbs. We use herbology for healing our bodies and the same can be said for plants. They react almost identically to herb medicines as we do, they just need it to be broken down by microbes first (which is what our digestive tract does for us). I am not into Veganics because I am a Vegan, I am into Veganics because plants are programmed to eat the waste from the bacterias which are feeding off of plant matter. The whole "grow" scene is just that, a scene without proper education. What did old world Farmer's use? They had no access to packaged amendments. They used compost piles of raw plant material and manure (which is also plant based). We need to learn from the past and not try to reinvent organics from getting our smarts from grow stores which get their smarts from distributors (bad idea!).


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 27, 2013)

DEM 840 said:


> Hi y'all. I have been running veganics since we moved to a far from anything Homestead (1995), and nothing else compares! Our strains are rejuvenated every time they are cloned. I do think it is necessary to include raw material (examples: Sun leaves, Nettles, Comfrey, grass clippings, alfalfa, etc...) in your tea blend. This is to cut down costs, gives your plants living chlorophyll filled nutrients and add living beneficial bacterias into your tea blends that you might not find in dried and mass produced facilities.AND, important to be careful not to be swayed by the word veganics and just think that the company is conscious and concerned about residues. Plant based materials,( not rock phosphates) are what the microbes need in order to thrive. Look for amendments that are herb based. It is a paradigm shift...Feed your microbes and let your microbes feed your plants. ANYTHING that directly "feeds" your plants is bypassing the organic process of living teas and soils. Bypassing the natural process of the plant's uptake will result in strain die off and decreased health of the plant and your soils.We get all of our N-P-K from herb roots, leaves and seeds. Plants do feed plants, that is the natural process. Rock phosphates are a dangerous industry and do contain many residues. If you are looking for pure medicine, might want to cut any phosphates. Your potassium and phosphorus can be supplemented generously with herbs. We use herbology for healing our bodies and the same can be said for plants. They react almost identically to herb medicines as we do, they just need it to be broken down by microbes first (which is what our digestive tract does for us). I am not into Veganics because I am a Vegan, I am into Veganics because plants are programmed to eat the waste from the bacterias which are feeding off of plant matter. The whole "grow" scene is just that, a scene without proper education. What did old world Farmer's use? They had no access to packaged amendments. They used compost piles of raw plant material and manure (which is also plant based). We need to learn from the past and not try to reinvent organics from getting our smarts from grow stores which get their smarts from distributors (bad idea!).



Great post!


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## BubbaGum (Nov 15, 2013)

SeniorFrostyKush said:


> anyone got some pics of their vegan garden or nugshots?


My grow was done using a list of stuff kyle recommended on his forum until Vegamatrix was released. First medical grow and using LED's so really only captured about 60-70 percent of the taste but they looked and smelled absolutely incredible. WHICH BTW I saw the Vegamatrix bottles today and great flaming Apollo if I saw them all, and read ingredients correctly THERE'S ONLY THREE DIFFERENT BOTTLES TO BUY! 

Junior bacon cheeseburger from Wendy's for life.


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## sunni (Dec 15, 2013)

View attachment 2930154 another veganic line


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## hyroot (Dec 15, 2013)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ nope didn't you hear they got in trouble too. not organic and not vegan. the only way to be true organic is source your own or grow your own nutes


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## sunni (Dec 15, 2013)

hyroot said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ nope didn't you hear they got in trouble too. not organic and not vegan. the only way to be true organic is source your own or grow your own nutes


link to confirmation of this claim please ive checked the ingredient list its vegan. they do have 1 line that is not vegan and contains fish


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## hyroot (Dec 16, 2013)

^^^^^^^^^ check the department of agriculture for california and oregon. Nutrient companies do not list all their ingredients on the label. You would be surprised at all the heavy metals and chemicals that are in so called organic nutrients. Maxi crop kelp has some of the same chems found in Drano and liquid plumber. Toss those bottled nutes and use dry nutes that you can source locally with out walking into a hydro shop.


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## sunni (Dec 16, 2013)

hyroot said:


> ^^^^^^^^^ check the department of agriculture for california and oregon. Nutrient companies do not list all their ingredients on the label. You would be surprised at all the heavy metals and chemicals that are in so called organic nutrients. Maxi crop kelp has some of the same chems found in Drano and liquid plumber. Toss those bottled nutes and use dry nutes that you can source locally with out walking into a hydro shop.


im more worried about the veganic aspect than organic


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## hyroot (Dec 16, 2013)

sunni said:


> im more worried about the veganic aspect than organic


chems are worst than any animal products. Mine are almost vegan. I just use crab meal as the only animal product. I have used fish meal a few times. I do not use guano, manure, bone meal , and blood meal. my nute regiment is crab meal, neem meal, kelp meal, basalt or glacial rock dust or soft rock phosphate

Chems in nutrients and pesticedes stay in the plant even after flushing and are absorbed into your body when smoked and can lead to cancer and upper respiratory problems.


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## sunni (Dec 16, 2013)

hyroot said:


> chems are worst than any animal products. Mine are almost vegan. I just use crab meal as the only animal product. I have used fish meal a few times. I do not use guano, manure, bone meal , and blood meal. my nute regiment is crab meal, neem meal, kelp meal, basalt or glacial rock dust or soft rock phosphate
> 
> Chems in nutrients and pesticedes stay in the plant even after flushing and are absorbed into your body when smoked and can lead to cancer and upper respiratory problems.


welli emailed the company ill see what they say


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## hyroot (Dec 17, 2013)

http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/pest/Pages/stopsales.aspx


http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/hitlist.lasso


http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=16787


bio thrive bloom has Indole3 Butyric Acid, Naphthaleneacetic Acid, Phosphorous Acid, Arsenic, Cadmium, Mercury, Lead, Nickel. All very bad chems and some poisons.... 


nutrient companies have to register and disclose all ingredients to each state so they can legally sell in each state. They are not required to disclose info on the label. If they lie in marketing I'm sure they will lie in the email.


Come join us over in these threada

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols.html

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/676040-total-noob-using-teas-i.html

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/753111-correct-way-make-actively-aerated.html


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## sunni (Dec 17, 2013)

yet you still have no information containing to it being vegan.
i told you i dont care about the organics part i care about vegan part. i think youre thick headed, i appreciate the comments but actually listen to what im saying not what you want to hear

i never claimined it to be organic i claimed it to be VEGAN.

secondly organic imho is the biggest piece of bullshit marketing ever

and third just because its labelled that way in your country doesnt mean its labelled the same in mine.


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## hyroot (Dec 17, 2013)

^^^^^^^^ ummm well this thread is called vegan organics..... in the organic section....


http://www.times-standard.com/localnews/ci_24628828/what-are-you-smoking-study-finds-pesticides-transfer

http://www.mendocinobeacon.com/ci_24629067/what-are-you-smoking-study-finds-pesticides-transfer

http://www.mendocinobeacon.com/regionalnews/ci_24660524/buyers-beware-study-finds-that-pesticides-transfer-marijuana


withe pure organics. all the food is readily available for the plant to take when it needs it. The plant is able to grow to its full potential of its genetics. With chems you have to give precisely what the plants needs and when it needss. Chems cut corners sort of speak to manipulate growth and the plant is unable to grow to it's full potential. Plus the chems stay absorbed in the plant even after flushing.

cannabis is amagnet for attraction of toxins. Phytoremediation is the process. Cannabis is used to clean up metals, pesticides, crude oilsolvents,polyaromatic hydrocarbons, and toxins leaching from landfills.


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## sunni (Dec 17, 2013)

hyroot said:


> ^^^^^^^^ well this thread is called vegan organics.....
> 
> 
> http://www.times-standard.com/localnews/ci_24628828/what-are-you-smoking-study-finds-pesticides-transfer
> ...


im done arguing you only hear what you want to hear


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## Shwagbag (Dec 20, 2013)

Hey Sunni, have you grown Cheese Quake or any other TGA strains? I've done Querkle and Queen of Hearts (Vortex x Ace of Spades) so far and I liked them both. The Querkle had a bit more of a stretch than I like so I retired her, but great smoke. I'm currently flowering a mainlined Vortex and she's a beaut! Good luck with the TGA gear, so far everything I've ran has been top notch!


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 20, 2013)

sunni said:


> yet you still have no information containing to it being vegan.
> i told you i dont care about the organics part i care about vegan part. i think youre thick headed, i appreciate the comments but actually listen to what im saying not what you want to hear
> 
> i never claimined it to be organic i claimed it to be VEGAN.
> ...


So you don't care what shit you dump on your plant as long as it's "vegan"??

This is the vegan ORGANIC thread. And while the word organic may not mean much when it comes to the food we eat, it means a lot when talking about this plant. Battery acid is vegan. Are you OK with feeding your plants that?


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## sunni (Dec 20, 2013)

Holy shit chill out buddy relax lol. for your information there
i had bought it that day, it simply only had the ingredient list. i knew nothing of the product previously 

you dont need to attack me with a fucking bag of bricks for buying something on impulse.


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## hyroot (Dec 20, 2013)

i don't use bricks, I throw rotten vegetables . Nah those vegetables go in my worm bin...


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## foreverflyhi (Dec 21, 2013)

Is poop vegan.. U kno the kind that comes out of animals butt holes..


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## boblawblah421 (Dec 21, 2013)

foreverflyhi said:


> Is poop vegan.. U kno the kind that comes out of animals butt holes..


I've been wondering the same thing myself actually. I use chicken, horse, steer, rabbit, and goat shit. Mix it with some leaf mold and some alfalfa hay and let it bake for a year or more... Man that's some good shit, vegan or not.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 21, 2013)

sunni said:


> Holy shit chill out buddy relax lol. for your information there
> i had bought it that day, it simply only had the ingredient list. i knew nothing of the product previously
> 
> you dont need to attack me with a fucking bag of bricks for buying something on impulse.


I didn't attack you, and it had nothing to do with your purchase. Buy whatever you want, but when you ask a question in the organics section about a nutrient line you shouldn't be shocked when the conversation heads that direction.

While you're busy calling others "thick headed" ...... you're being thick headed yourself. You don't care if something is organic, only if it's vegan. That makes no sense. Every synthetic nutrient on the market is "vegan" by definition, but is about the furthest thing from organic that you could find. Miracle Grow is vegan, and is very inexpensive. Maybe that would work for you.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Dec 21, 2013)

Damn sunni for having 13,000 post u sure dont choose ur words wisely

Im not saying i dont agree with u, however i do disagree on most of what u said regaurding vegan and organics.

btw not that it matters to you, but maybe u are right about that line of nutrients being "vegan" but have u ever stop to think about what that bottle is made from? Or hows its made? Not very vegan/sustainable or organic is it?


----------



## Abiqua (Dec 21, 2013)

Soaking some organic quinoa seed. 

I have soaked them for a couple of days and thought about using the water in my waterings? 

Not trying to shortcut barley soaking, but could this be an alternative, thoughts?


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## hyroot (Dec 22, 2013)

Abiqua said:


> Soaking some organic quinoa seed.
> 
> I have soaked them for a couple of days and thought about using the water in my waterings?
> 
> Not trying to shortcut barley soaking, but could this be an alternative, thoughts?


the water that seeds soak in. That inhibits growth. Its all explained early in the rols thread. You want to rinse off all that water. Hence the resting and rinsing and soaking twice


https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols-104.html


[url]https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols-52.html
[/URL]


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## sunni (Dec 22, 2013)

yes you guys very much did attack me.

perhaps i worded it wrong, ive only ever made my own nutes and soils ive never bought a bottle before in my life.

*yes im concerned first and foremost that something is vegan before its organic*, because i wont buy consume or use animal products. thats the way i live. that doesnt mean ill use a product and that doesnt mean the product is horrible.
IE: ive bought pasta that was vegan but not organic

and i wont believe everything i read on the internet for every 1 post of hyroot i have 2 people message me in inbox saying he was full of shit.

so ive decided to email the company and we will see. and ill make my own decision from after a little more research 

Just because YOU GUYS think that it wasnt attacking because you two were on THAT side doesnt mean to the other user it wasnt.


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## Nullis (Dec 22, 2013)

hyroot said:


> http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/pest/Pages/stopsales.aspx
> 
> 
> http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/hitlist.lasso
> ...


*You are misinterpreting those web pages. I have tried to tell you this in the past, because I remember you have posted similar things in the past.

First of all, all fertilizers contain some trace amount of heavy metals like those you mention (greensand, rock phosphate, kelp meal, etc. too). That is in parts per million, and values of < (less than) 10, <5, <0.2, 5, <5 aren't really significant... compare them to others. Random example Maxicrop Soluble Seaweed power - http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_met...oduct_id=16782 with 36 ppm Arsenic, this Espoma rock phosphate - http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_met...oduct_id=21812 with 42 ppm Cadmium and 70 ppm Nickel! 

Also you are reading the Non Plant Food Ingredients table incorrectly. The fields that you reference, Indole3 Butyric Acid, Phosphorous Acid, Naphthaleneacetic Acid, etc. are EMPTY... there is no value there because those substances are not in the product (you will notice that table displayed on many of the liquid products). What is in the product for NPF-ingredients, according to the table is 0.2% Humic acid, 2% Kelp and for Other Ingredients 1.5% Cane Sugar and 0.5% Glacial Rock Powder.

*And for someone to say something like "every synthetic nutrient on the market is vegan by definition", is more than a stretch. If you want to get down to it most of the synthetics are petrochemicals- obtained from fossil fuels.

Products like the General Organics line are plant based (alfalfa, kelp, plant protein hydrolysate) with mined minerals.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 22, 2013)

Nullis said:


> *You are misinterpreting those web pages. I have tried to tell you this in the past, because I remember you have posted similar things in the past.
> 
> First of all, all fertilizers contain some trace amount of heavy metals like those you mention (greensand, rock phosphate, kelp meal, etc. too). That is in parts per million, and values of < (less than) 10, <5, <0.2, 5, <5 aren't really significant... compare them to others. Random example Maxicrop Soluble Seaweed power - http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_met...oduct_id=16782 with 36 ppm Arsenic, this Espoma rock phosphate - http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_met...oduct_id=21812 with 42 ppm Cadmium and 70 ppm Nickel!
> 
> ...


Oh please. You're going to trace the product back millions of years to connect your dots?? Using that logic sunni wouldn't be able to drive a car, ride a bike, or wear a pair of shoes because they're all bi-products of dinosaurs (not vegan). Smh


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## sunni (Dec 22, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Oh please. You're going to trace the product back millions of years to connect your dots?? Using that logic sunni wouldn't be able to drive a car, ride a bike, or wear a pair of shoes because they're all bi-products of dinosaurs (not vegan). Smh



i dont drive actually. and i wear certified vegan shoes


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## nevyn (Dec 22, 2013)

sunni said:


> i dont drive actually. and *i wear certified vegan shoes*


Sorry this caught my eye. You get vegan shoe's? WTF?? Really? If this was joke and I missed it then apologies, but we live in a strange world, so anything is possible. Not trying offend Sunni if you really do get vegan shoes.


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## sunni (Dec 22, 2013)

nevyn said:


> Sorry this caught my eye. You get vegan shoe's? WTF?? Really? If this was joke and I missed it then apologies, but we live in a strange world, so anything is possible. Not trying offend Sunni if you really do get vegan shoes.


yes i get vegan shoes because i am vegan. i dont wear anything from an animal product or by product i also dont buy anything made in sweatshops or try not to at least anymore. i dont shop at walmart or any other big named store. 
i make my own laundry soap, tooth paste, deodorant, soaps, ect

vegan shoes dont really look any different heres my combat boots i bought for like 40$


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## nevyn (Dec 22, 2013)

sunni said:


> yes i get vegan shoes because i am vegan. i dont wear anything from an animal product or by product i also dont buy anything made in sweatshops or try not to at least anymore. i dont shop at walmart or any other big named store.
> i make my own laundry soap, tooth paste, deodorant, soaps, ect
> 
> vegan shoes dont really look any different heres my combat boots i bought for like 40$ View attachment 2937806


Wow, I really never knew that, that is freaky, nice one Sunni. Not a vegan myself but I also only use a homoeopathic (can't think of a better way to put it) toothpaste. But shoes wow, wow. A close friend of mine is the same as you, she also makes her own stuff, like soap and whatnot. She will be very interested in these shoes I can tell you that. Can't wait to tell her, for once I will know something she doesn't, lol.


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## sunni (Dec 22, 2013)

nevyn said:


> Wow, I really never knew that, that is freaky, nice one Sunni. Not a vegan myself but I also only use a homoeopathic (can't think of a better way to put it) toothpaste. But shoes wow, wow. A close friend of mine is the same as you, she also makes her own stuff, like soap and whatnot. She will be very interested in these shoes I can tell you that. Can't wait to tell her, for once I will know something she doesn't, lol.


haha most shoes are pretty vegan friendly now as synthetic materials are cheaper to produce than leather fur ect.


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## Nullis (Dec 22, 2013)

It doesn't matter how I want to trace it back, different strokes for different folks.

If someone doesn't want to buy synthetic nutrients because they don't want to support that aspect of the petrochemical/fertilizer industry, why should anyone have a problem with that? Furthermore you should know better than to say that such fertilizers are "practically vegan". They do absolutely nothing for the soil food web and you know that. - Obviously they didn't come from plants.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 22, 2013)

sunni said:


> haha most shoes are pretty vegan friendly now as synthetic materials are cheaper to produce than leather fur ect.


What about the soles of the shoes though?

Rubber=dinosaurs=not vegan (nullis logic).


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## Nullis (Dec 22, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> So you don't care what shit you dump on your plant as long as it's "vegan"??
> 
> This is the vegan ORGANIC thread. And while the word organic may not mean much when it comes to the food we eat, it means a lot when talking about this plant. Battery acid is vegan. Are you OK with feeding your plants that?


st0wandgrow logic.

No ya know what I don't care right now. You're a moron. You jump to conclusions when that wasn't my 'logic' at all.


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## sunni (Dec 22, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> What about the soles of the shoes though?
> 
> Rubber=dinosaurs=not vegan (nullis logic).


says its made from a mix of wood and airseal which i suppose is rubber


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 22, 2013)

Nullis said:


> It doesn't matter how I want to trace it back, different strokes for different folks.
> 
> If someone doesn't want to buy synthetic nutrients because they don't want to support that aspect of the petrochemical/fertilizer industry, why should anyone have a problem with that? Furthermore you should know better than to say that such fertilizers are "practically vegan". *They do absolutely nothing for the soil food web and you know that.* - Obviously they didn't come from plants.


Where did I say that? I didn't. She said that she didn't care if it was organic, to which I responded that she may as well buy synthetics then.

Give your head a shake you know it all.


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## sunni (Dec 22, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Where did I say that? I didn't. She said that she didn't care if it was organic, to which I responded that she may as well buy synthetics then.
> 
> Give your head a shake you know it all.


its not that i dont care if its organic but my priority list is
vegan
organic

so vegan would be first priority over organic


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## foreverflyhi (Dec 22, 2013)

I see alot of words like vegan and organics, what anout sustainabity? 
They are all connected in their true meaning.
SUSTAINABILITY is VEGAN and SUSTAINABILITY is ORGANICS

Imo yall are getting off track with yall non sense


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## Nullis (Dec 22, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Where did I say that? I didn't. She said that she didn't care if it was organic, to which I responded that she may as well buy synthetics then.
> 
> Give your head a shake you know it all.


Oh, I am the know it all? I suppose I do try. But...

Knock knock, at the door. Who's it for? There's nobody in here. *Look in the mirror my friend.*


I am just a bit sick of folks around here jumping on others posts with such vehemence, pretty must just over their choice of words. I mean, if my logic is so screwed up but your battery acid = veganic logic isn't... well fuck me. Granted that perhaps this is all just a matter of perspective anyways. "Vegan" sort of implies organic if you ask me.

However, hyroot going around repeatedly slandering certain products he probably hasn't even used over information he is quite clearly misconstruing is another matter. I have absolutely no problem being corrected when there is clear, concise, credible information presented to me or somebody explains to me convincingly enough why I am wrong. 


I don't understand at best. I cannot speak for all the rest.
Morning's rise a lifetime's past me by.


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## hyroot (Dec 22, 2013)

Nullis said:


> Oh, I am the know it all? I suppose I do try. But...
> 
> Knock knock, at the door. Who's it for? There's nobody in here. *Look in the mirror my friend.*
> 
> ...



you have to argue every little thing then quote the first thing you find in a google search without doing any real research or trial and error

vegan is anything not from an animal. veganic is organic vegan. so all chems are vegan


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## Nullis (Dec 22, 2013)

Again that's a matter of perspective. The way I see it "vegan" in terms of growing plants, etc. = vegetatively derived. Therefore no refined substance is "vegan", unless it was refined from a vegetable source. Example: Vegetable derived gel caps.

And BTW the more I think about it, what I said before really isn't so illogical. Fossil fuels are pretty well directly derived from animals, irrespective of the amount of time it took to convert from "animal" to fossil fuel. Still, they are called fossil fuels for a reason.

This is why it is a matter of perspective, and I never said it was necessarily _my_ perspective but it is one nonetheless.



hyroot said:


> you have to argue every little thing then quote the first thing you find in a google search without doing any real research or trial and error


 Now is that really what I do?
And, if so, is this worse than slandering products because I misinterpreted the info in the State of Oregon's fertilizer registration database and thought it included all of the ingredients in the product?


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## hyroot (Dec 22, 2013)

its not slander when its fact. all bottled nutes are bad and contain shit in there thats not on the label. Ive used the ancient forest before and after i stopped using it I learned the truth. Go ahead and continue to be brain washed by the hydro shop /nutrient company mentality. 



*Source your own!!!*


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## Abiqua (Dec 22, 2013)

hyroot said:


> *Source your own!!!*


x2...........


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## Abiqua (Dec 22, 2013)

..vegan is pretty much accepted nomenclature based on phsicality of something not animal derived, 

...while vegetarian is often the most popular noun for a vegetable based anything even beyond food. 

but it's really tit for tat....learning whats going on at the molecular level is more important and often overlooked.


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## Abiqua (Dec 22, 2013)

hyroot said:


> the water that seeds soak in. That inhibits growth. Its all explained early in the rols thread. You want to rinse off all that water. Hence the resting and rinsing and soaking twice
> 
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols-104.html
> ...


thanks ...I was hoping you would catch this. 

I was aware of initially soaking them before cooking or for making sprouts, but wasn't aware that the 1st soak was growth inhibiting? Wonder what it work's on. 

Need to read that whole ROLS thread I guess, damn......Gina....got some popcorn and green butter, so it's cool.


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## Nullis (Dec 22, 2013)

hyroot said:


> its not slander when its fact. all bottled nutes are bad and contain shit in there thats not on the label. Ive used the ancient forest before and after i stopped using it I learned the truth. Go ahead and continue to be brain washed by the hydro shop /nutrient company mentality.
> 
> 
> 
> *Source your own!!!*


Except that it isn't. Sorry you have such an extreme mentality, but just because something comes in a bottle doesn't automatically mean it "contains shit there thats not on the label". If you still can't except that you didn't know what you were reading on the State of Oregon, Dept. of Agriculture fertilizer product registration database, that is your problem. You post about the heavy metal content in those products, as if those are not insignificant TRACE AMOUNTS, as if every product doesn't have some amount of heavy metals, as if they were put there on purpose. And you go on saying there is Indole3 Buyric acid, Naphthaleneacetic Acid, Polyacrylamide, etc. in the products (in particular General Organics Bio-Thrive)... and this database is the basis for your claim, that they all "contain shit that's not on the label", correct?

Because for the last time, those are default fields of the "Non Plant Food Ingredients" table; which is displayed by default for most of the [liquid] products which contain any single one of those ingredients, as those are apparently common non plant food ingredients. If those ingredients WERE present, then you would see an indication of that, as in a percentage, as it does here for Humic acid and Kelp. See the "Other Ingredients" portion... along with what those ingredients are and in what %? 

Some also list microbials, if present. Check out the listing for Bio-Tone Starter Plus: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=11206
You're telling me there is potting mix and polyacrylamide (SoilMoist) in Bio-Tone?

If not then what is the basis for your claims? (Other than that I have been "brainwashed", and isn't that convenient.)


And no, after you stopped using it you read something about a brand of Humus called "Alaska Magic" and mistook that for "Ancient Forest", and assumed it was all the same when it wasn't... and you're too damned stubborn to step back and realize this.


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## hyroot (Dec 22, 2013)

*no each nutrient had a different table therefore....

arsenic is a man made poison yet its in most of those bottles an not naturaly there. 1 example




for the last time GO buys from afaik and so does denali


its funny how 6 months ago when cann was saying what i say now and i replied to him the same way you reply to me. you were one of the people that jumped on me for saying the same thing you are now saying. which is the opposite. 


cann proved me wrong about ancient forest. you sided with him and now say the opposite. he showed plenty of proof in the rols thread so go find it.
since you are so determined to be right even though you are wrong.


im done 
*


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 23, 2013)

sunni said:


> its not that i dont care if its organic but my priority list is
> vegan
> organic
> 
> so vegan would be first priority over organic


Sunni, sorry for jumping on you. That wasn't my intention.

If you're interested in organics, and you want to stay away from animal-derived amendments you have some options other than bottled nutrients such as General Organics. It's not that bottled organic nutrients are necessarily bad, but imo building your own soil is better. As far as the General Organics lineup goes, you can bump up the biothrive grow and bloom to twice what the feeding chart says. I believe they call for 5ml per gallon of each, and I used 10ml per gallon of each with better results.

Down to Earth makes a "Vegan Mix" which is an assortment of plant and mineral based dry amendments. When building a soil you could start there and add a few other items like kelp meal, alfalfa meal, neem seed cake, and a solid mineral mix which would include rock dusts, calcium carbonate, gypsum, and maybe a couple other things. If you're interested in this, and are not grossed out by worm castings (or other compost), you could build a terrific soil that can be recycled and end of saving you a bunch of money. I know you're in to eating healthy ..... and this same concept can be employed in a veggie garden as well if you have one. If you do go this route, a worm bin is a great thing. Not only will you reap the benefits of the best source of humus you can find (for practically free) you can also recycle every shred of scrap food from your table right in to the worm bin and let them turn what would have otherwise been tossed in to black gold for your plants.


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## Rising Moon (Dec 23, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> For reals...
> 
> Quality compost being the heart of the system. That being said, the best compost I have ever seen/used/made was entirely from grass clippings, wildflowers, clover and alfalfa. It was a 2 year process, but the end result was incredible.
> 
> ...


Bump...

Amazes me after being gone from this forum for more than 6 months, this thread still argues about the same old shit....

Build your soil with herbs, flowers and plant meals, leave the bottles for the kids. Time to move into real farming folks...


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## sunni (Dec 23, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Sunni, sorry for jumping on you. That wasn't my intention.
> 
> If you're interested in organics, and you want to stay away from animal-derived amendments you have some options other than bottled nutrients such as General Organics. It's not that bottled organic nutrients are necessarily bad, but imo building your own soil is better. As far as the General Organics lineup goes, you can bump up the biothrive grow and bloom to twice what the feeding chart says. I believe they call for 5ml per gallon of each, and I used 10ml per gallon of each with better results.
> 
> Down to Earth makes a "Vegan Mix" which is an assortment of plant and mineral based dry amendments. When building a soil you could start there and add a few other items like kelp meal, alfalfa meal, neem seed cake, and a solid mineral mix which would include rock dusts, calcium carbonate, gypsum, and maybe a couple other things. If you're interested in this, and are not grossed out by worm castings (or other compost), you could build a terrific soil that can be recycled and end of saving you a bunch of money. I know you're in to eating healthy ..... and this same concept can be employed in a veggie garden as well if you have one. If you do go this route, a worm bin is a great thing. Not only will you reap the benefits of the best source of humus you can find (for practically free) you can also recycle every shred of scrap food from your table right in to the worm bin and let them turn what would have otherwise been tossed in to black gold for your plants.




i have always grown organic and vegan i have always made my own mixes. i have always done my own
. but my list of priorities are 
vegan
than
organic.

i bought the bottle on an impluse buy ive emailed the company i hear both side of the story i may decide to use it or not depending on what research i find


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## Nullis (Dec 23, 2013)

hyroot said:


> *no each nutrient had a different table therefore....
> 
> arsenic is a man made poison yet its in most of those bottles an not naturaly there. 1 example
> 
> ...


Why don't you e-mail the Oregon Dept. of Agriculture and ask them yourself?

What is this "AFAIK" that you speak of?? I jumped on you for saying what, when? Which is the opposite of what I am saying now? Huh? Care to link me to the thread/posts in question? Otherwise I am sorry to say I don't recall such an instance... I am not going to go find anything, I have shit to do besides read through 100s upon 100s of posts.

The primary point I am trying to make is that you totally don't know what you're looking at on those web pages. To be honest with you, I am trying to make this clear for the benefit of anybody else who doesn't understand because this misinformation is not helpful to anyone. Obviously you're a lost cause and unfortunately you want to hang on to your misconceptions as tightly as possible... (or am I talking about myself?)

Another thing you fail to understand... Arsenic *is not man made*. Arsenic is a naturally occurring element, a metalloid, found naturally in the Earth's crust just like other minerals. Arsenic is naturally present in soil, food, and water. 


> Arsenic makes up about 1.5 ppm (0.00015%) of the Earth's crust, making it the 53rd most abundant element. Soil contains 110 ppm of arsenic. Seawater has only 1.6 ppb arsenic.[SUP][22][/SUP]


Some heavy metals are required as trace elements, most commonly copper, zinc, cobalt, nickel etc. but also others depending on the organism... potentially including arsenic. Of course, too much of any of these is also toxic to most organisms. Arsenic interferes with the Kreb's cycle, competing with phosphorous and inhibiting pyruvate dehydrogenase, thereby halting the production of ATP. However, there is organic arsenic and inorganic arsenic. The toxic forms of arsenic are the inorganic forms, while organic arsenic is relatively harmless. This is in contrast to mercury, in the case of which all forms possess some toxicity but the organic form (methylmercury) is the most toxic. When you see a listing of a heavy metal content (e.g. for arsenic), that is the maximum total content without distinguishing between organic/inorganic forms. 

I sort of have a thing for chemistry and biology, of the real factual sort. If that makes me a know it all so be it.

So for the benefit of anybody else who actually would like to use the Oregon Dept. of Agriculture product registration database for a practical purpose, understand what they are looking it, and obtain accurate information from it, please follow along. What the database will tell you mainly is the maximum content of 5 heavy metals (in ppm), the guaranteed analysis, and what if any ingredients are considered "Non Plant Food Ingredients" (such as humic acid and kelp).

They all start off and look something like this, here is a good example: 

 *Product Name:* 7-28-4 Enhance +plus foliar fertilizer 
  *OMRI Listed:* No 
 *WSDA Organic Program Listed:* No  *CDFA Listed OIM:* No 
 
 Product Status 
 Brand Name  Waste Derived  Pesticide   Registered  Ag Concepts  No  No  
 
 *Registrant:* AG CONCEPTS CORP - CLOVIS, CA (559) 297-9322 


Then the maximum heavy metals content (remember there is some amount of heavy metals in all soil/fertilizer). It always lists values for Arsenic, Cadmium, Mercury, Lead and Nickel in parts per million.


 Heavy Metals (in Parts Per Million) 
   *Arsenic:* < 10.0 
 *Cadmium: * 38.4  *Mercury:* < 0.05  *Lead: * < 5.0  *Nickel:* < 1.0 

Next up the guaranteed analysis. Pretty straight forward.

 Guaranteed Analysis 
   *Total Nitrogen: * 7% 
 *Avail. Phosphate: * 28%  *Sol. Potash:* 4%  *Calcium: * 
 *Magnesium: *  *Sulfur: *  *Boron:*  *Chlorine:*  *Cobalt: *  *Copper:* 0.05%  *Iron:* 0.15% 
 *Manganese:* 0.1%  *Molybdenum: *  *Sodium:*  *Zinc:* 0.1% 

And finally, should the product contain "Non Plant Food Ingredients", this table will be displayed *with an indicator or value next to the ingredient if present.*

Non Plant Food Ingredients 
  Humic Acid  Indole3 Butyric Acid  Naphthaleneacetic Acid 
 Phosphorous Acid  0.35%     Kelp  Vitamin B1  Polyacrylamide  Potting Mix   0.275%  0.0003%    Other Ingredients 
 0.0000% Bromelain, 0.000085% Papain, 0.00025% Riboflavin, 0.00060% Carrageenan, 0.27% Sucrose
Also includes 0.0000051 units/ml citrate synthase, 0.000595 unit/ml malate dehydrogenase  
 
Notice how there is no value beneath Indole3 Butyric Acid, Naphthaleneacetic acid, Phosphorous acid, Polyacrylamide or Potting Mix since these don't apply to this particular product.

All of these products with any non plant food ingredients display the same table. The table is not displayed if there aren't any Non Plant Food Ingredients listed.
http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=16644
http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=18208
http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=15835
http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=26500
http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=13998 - Soil Moist product with Polyacrylamide polymer.
http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=26699
http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=12357


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## Nullis (Dec 24, 2013)

^ Apparently not, when you try to make something clear as day for somebody and they just want go on as if you're the thick headed one. If I was hyroot and had any respect for facts or my intelligence I'd have admitted I was wrong already, whoops, my mistake, thanks for correcting me. Arsenic man made- lol. 

Then he wants to tell me Ancient Forest humus is "fake" because "it all comes from the same place" (because of a particular defunct brand with a similar name) and that it is "just sphagnum peat moss"... when I've used enough compost and sphagnum in my day to know the difference. Not to mention I've bought bags of AF that had live worms still wiggling around in it- and not red worms, or nightcrawlers but a much smaller variety of worm I had never even seen prior to that.

I don't know what is more frustrating... Knowing you are right and being right, or knowing you are right and being wrong.

Also, I too grow in soil that I mix myself (based on SAM#4\OF) and recycled living soil, and I use AACT whenever possible. The thing is, I don't consider myself above or beyond using liquid organic products be they fertilizer or supplements- I just use them sparingly when I feel it is necessary (if I feel it is necessary). That fact that the product came in a bag or a box or a bottle, to me, in and of itself makes no difference. 

I also use alfalfa meal, kelp meal, rock dusts, earthworm castings etc. as well, except I don't post around here like my shit don't stink on account of it. I realize that not everybody has the time/space/effort to acquire all the ingredients in order to mix their own soils, wait for them to sit, brew compost teas, keep or tend to a worm bin, etc.

On a lighter note, I too am smoking Lemon Skunk, lovely strain.


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## Nullis (Dec 24, 2013)

Oh I was? Where was I for that?

Trying to help somebody make sense of something isn't "talking shit"... Your post right there would be, though.

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols-28.html#post9189680
^So what is that like unequivocal "proof", that post, right there? It isn't at all possible that Cann shared a similar misconception as yourself?


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## boblawblah421 (Dec 24, 2013)

You two quite arguing or you will go to bed without any dessert tonight.


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## Nullis (Dec 25, 2013)

How would a raw single-ingredient product have a recipe (a single-ingredient recipe)? How could a raw product be patented? Are apples patented? Is soil itself patented?

You can't even admit you were wrong about Arsenic being "man made"... please dude, just, please.

Admit you're wrong about something for once, and maybe I'll be able to "let it go". Until then, yes you are misleading people. That says little of you're ability to help people as a whole, and even less about you as a grower, necessarily... but it still makes you wrong.

PS: The website I linked to tells you the first known date the TM was used/registered, etc. A trademark applies to a name, no shit, it IS a name. The registration date implies around when the product started being sold. 

Why would they sell the same product under three different brand names (by three totally separate companies) starting in different years, and ultimately all competing with each other? As I mentioned, Alaska Magic is defunct (bankrupt) probably because they sold a shitty product. If they really wanted to screw people don't you think they would have exhausted one brand _before _starting another? And the AF issue is actually the least of my problems with your misinformation. Whatever it is, though, it isn't sphagnum peat moss, it is quite decomposed and has debris you wouldn't typically find in a bale of sphagnum.


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## boblawblah421 (Dec 25, 2013)

Would one of ya'll please be the bigger man and drop it already. 

I'm an opinionated, argumentative ass-hole, but I'd like to think I know when to just shut the fuck up.


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## foreverflyhi (Dec 25, 2013)

^^^^^^^^!!!!!!!^^^^^^^^^


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## Nullis (Dec 26, 2013)

This was not about opinion's. The point is, I don't want to see him posting the misinfo (not an opinion) anymore. If he didn't- I wouldn't try so hard to correct him, if I knew I wouldn't have to do it again.

And instead of sitting on the side lines why doesn't anybody else stand up for the sake of reliable information, and say he doesn't know what he is talking about (in this instance)?

*** I had no issue with hyroot prior to this; I hope not to in the future. Pretty sure we've even "Liked" each others posts plenty of times in the past. I realize it now looks like I've been talking to myself for the past 6 posts.


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## hyroot (Dec 26, 2013)

^^^^ there threads / sticky's dedicated to not using those snake oils. They must have you in their pocket. or you work for them but. regardless of arsenic origin. there are man made compounds of arsenic too. Anyway arsenic is toxic and used in rat poison so why would anyone want to feed it to their plants. If the snake oil nutrient companies put that on their label they would go out of business. its a fact that most bottled nutrient companies lie to the public about what they have in their bottles and they manipulate the public into buying products they don't need and that don't do anything like pk boosters. npk numbers are irrelevant. Just like lighting. Its about the balance and having nutrient accumulators like kelp meal and rockdust will be more effective than any pk booster and not cause any phos abuse / stunting growth like all the high phos nutrients. less is more and more effective....... either way _*GO is not organic*_ and that was my original point.. but


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## Nullis (Dec 27, 2013)

No actually your "point" wasn't limited to that (which is all a matter of perspective, since GO does have all natural ingredients of vegetative origin and mined minerals). What you used to substantiate your claim was misrepresented. Regardless of whether I use the products or not, or to what extent I use them, you're misrepresenting information therefore it is still misinformation. I don't use any "PK booster".

I already said I mix my own soil, use raw ingredients, recycle soil and brew AACT. Still you fail to realize that not everybody has the time, effort or resources available to them to do this. Just because something comes in a bottle as opposed to a bag or a box doesn't *necessarily *mean it is "bad", that's kind of an asinine assertion. 

You say "Arsenic is man made poison"... I say "uhm, no, actually Arsenic is a naturally occurring element, like zinc or iron"... so then you say "well there are man made compounds of arsenic".  Indeed, there *are* man made compounds of arsenic...  no shit. There are man made compounds of carbon and most elements. There are metals and heavy metals absolutely required for life (zinc, iron, copper, molybdenum) and too much of those are also very toxic. Still arsenic itself (and other heavy metals) are naturally occurring. The amounts which are present in bottled (and dry boxed/bagged!) nutrients WERE NOT ADDED INTENTIONALLY BY MAN. Those are heavy metals existing in their natural states, more or less at their natural concentrations. We're talking double digit parts per million or less.

*Arsenic is in kelp meal. *

Age old: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=25552 - *26.9 ppm*

Down to Earth: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=576 - *25.8 ppm*

EB Stone: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=635 - *26 ppm*

Humboldt Solutions Soluble Seaweed extract: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=26464 - *12.10 ppm*

Nature's Solution Sea Kelp: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=17997 - *21.3 ppm*

Kellogg Gardener and Bloome Kelp: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=16522 - *23.1 ppm*

Whitney Farms Kelp Meal: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=20030 - *23.3 ppm*
*
Arsenic is in rock dust. *
Dr. Earth Soft Rock Phosphate: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=604 - *12 ppm *(Arsenic)* 
Cadmium: 41.91 Mercury: 0.44 Lead: 7.7 Nickel: 7.1 *

Gaia Green Glacial Rock Dust: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=11302 - *10 ppm* (Arsenic)
*Cadmium: < 0.50 Mercury: < 0.05 Lead: < 5.0 Nickel: 16.9 *

Kellogg Gardener & Bloome Soft Rock Phosphate: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=16523 - *2.14 ppm* (Arsenic)
*Cadmium: 1.28 Mercury: 0.06452 Lead: 5.77 Nickel: 12.0 *

St. Paul Rock Phosphate: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=5589 - *13.3 ppm* (Arsenic)
*Cadmium: 63.6 Mercury: 0.334 Lead: 31.5 Nickel: 139 *

Espoma Rock Phosphate: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=21812 - *11 ppm* (Arsenic)
*Cadmium: 42.0 Mercury: 1.2 Lead: 8 Nickel: 70 *

Excelerite Remineralize: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=20363 - *18 ppm* (Arsenic)
*Cadmium: 1.7 Mercury: 0.67 Lead: 8.1 Nickel: 5.6 

Earthworm Castings too.*
Roots Big Worm: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=16790 - *8.8 ppm* (Arsenic)
*Cadmium: < 0.1 Mercury: 0.13 Lead: 75.7 Nickel: 44.3 *

VermiWorm: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=26149 - *2.9 ppm* (Arsenic)
*Cadmium: 0.55 Mercury: 0.12 Lead: 19 Nickel: 20 *

Worm-Gro Earthworm castings: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=10110 - *2.46 ppm* (Arsenic)
*Cadmium: 0.311 Mercury: 0.130 Lead: 19.6 Nickel: 16.6 *

Do you use Roots Oregonism XL? Even that has *3.7 ppm* Arsenic and *24 ppm Nickel*! http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=6487 

And do you know what else is used as rat poison, more commonly these days? Cholecalciferol and ergocalciferol. Know what that is? Vitamin D.


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## boblawblah421 (Dec 27, 2013)

There comes a point in a debate when an agreement to just disagree needs to occur.

Communities like this one are here for a reason. That reason is to combine as much information in one easily accessible location, so people can pick and choose what information they would like to run with.

Who here has not ever made a huge mistake by putting too much faith into what one single source of information told them? I know I have.

No one situation is exactly the same as the next.

Furthermore... We cannot control everything, or everyone. Even if we know for a fact that we are right, and someone else is wrong, sometimes you need to just let people make their own mistakes. 

Nullis and hyroot... Are you guys married? Father and son? Husband and wife? Lesbian lovers? 

No?

Then why do you give such a shit what the other thinks? 

Nobody else is even fucking with this thread anymore because it has just turned into a cat fight.


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## sunni (Dec 27, 2013)

bitching about other people bitching kinda doesnt work in favor of your point.


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## boblawblah421 (Dec 28, 2013)

sunni said:


> bitching about other people bitching kinda doesnt work in favor of your point.


I certainly didn't feel like I was bitching, but hey, I do kind of feel like I am talking to children now so... 

Maybe I am just bitching.

Oh well.

I didn't really check out this thread to join arguments about bottled garbage and vegan pussy shoes.


This thread is dead.


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## sunni (Dec 28, 2013)

vegan pussy shoes thats a new one


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## Olears (Feb 20, 2014)

Nullis said:


> No actually your "point" wasn't limited to that (which is all a matter of perspective, since GO does have all natural ingredients of vegetative origin and mined minerals). What you used to substantiate your claim was misrepresented. Regardless of whether I use the products or not, or to what extent I use them, you're misrepresenting information therefore it is still misinformation. I don't use any "PK booster".
> 
> I already said I mix my own soil, use raw ingredients, recycle soil and brew AACT. Still you fail to realize that not everybody has the time, effort or resources available to them to do this. Just because something comes in a bottle as opposed to a bag or a box doesn't *necessarily *mean it is "bad", that's kind of an asinine assertion.
> 
> ...


You sir are an inspiration in good post writing


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 24, 2014)

Just reading through stuff here as it seems to have mostly been entertaining due to all of the arguing.. Don't care to get involved. Sunni I saw your vegan shoes post and thought that was pretty interesting and neat, however notice you called them combat boots. Not wanting to start an argument but I can say those are not combat boots. I can say this because I've served and have had a vast amount of them. Dunno if you stated that just because they are over the calf boots or etc? anyways just thought id say that and keep on keeping on.


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 24, 2014)

Hyroot I'm gonna have to disagree with you on a few things as far as you pointed out what came in the bottled nutes you mentioned that, *Polyacrylamide, **1-Naphthaleneacetic acid, **Indole-3-butyric acid *were in the product but if you actually look into the information you posted it shows that they are not.

Indole-3-butyric acid btw is an IBA, which means its a growth hormone. It is a alkaloid and an auxin. alkaloids are naturally found plant products. many plants produce this. It is used as a rooting hormone. it helps form a callus to root formation and is called indirect organogenesis whereas if roots are formed from the explant directly it is called direct organogenesis. The chemical makeup regarding this and why its called what it is is due to a carboxylic acid group, along with an NO2 group. If you see any alkaloids or auxins with an NO2 group it usually always means they are plant derived. think of cocaine.. this IBA is also found in Aloe Vera along with Gibberellin 

Now 1-Naphthaleneacetic acid is also an Auxin and another growth hormone. However this one is not an alkaloid or plant derived it is synthetically made. But it is used for rooting and propagation. This has been widely used in the agricultural industry for propagation of apples, olives, oranges and other citrus fruits, and even potatoes. this compound helps not only with rooting and growth but grafting. it helps stop thinning and fruit drop. it is considered slightly toxic and toxic to animals if consumed in a high amount. By high amount I mean via oral ingestion at 1000-5900 mg/kg. This means you would have to consume that many mgs per kg of body weight. you would be literally taking truckloads to reach this amount. but nevertheless that is why it is registered under (FIFRA) Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Redenticide Act under the EPA. 

Now as far as the third and last one polyarcylamide, this is not toxic however if unpolymerized it can be a neurotoxin. this is an amide and is used in a variety of things. have you ever worn contact lenses? well this is used in making soft contact lenses , its also been used in cosmetic surgery of the face. did you ever play with those eggs when you were younger when placed in water they swelled? well that would be due to this compound because it is water soluble and acts as a soft gel. some other uses...

Papermaking, is used in water treatment and even in construction or areas that are very prone to erosion. Why? to help protect rivers and other bodies of water from the effects that erosion can have, which can be pretty severe. oh it is used in hort/ag as a soil conditioner as well..

How do I know all of this? well due to taking Chemistry, horticulture, agricultural classes and IPM which I have had very knowledgeable professor who has done work with toxins, pesticides, etc since the 60s who is involved with testing them, researching the effects they may have, and helping the state prosecute those who may miss use anything under FIFRA. Great guy and extremely knowledgeable in his field.

so what was the point of this post? Not to put you on blast but to point out some of your misinformation. I did not know alot of this myself long ago, but having been back in school you learn alot. Please do more research before posting things that maybe misleading. and no I do not use bottled nutes and I do in fact make up my own soil etc. I do also follow the ROLS thread. Just don't be so fast to jump on someone else before knowing the proper information yourself. Back to growing


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## sunni (Feb 24, 2014)

snowboarder396 said:


> Just reading through stuff here as it seems to have mostly been entertaining due to all of the arguing.. Don't care to get involved. Sunni I saw your vegan shoes post and thought that was pretty interesting and neat, however notice you called them combat boots. Not wanting to start an argument but I can say those are not combat boots. I can say this because I've served and have had a vast amount of them. Dunno if you stated that just because they are over the calf boots or etc? anyways just thought id say that and keep on keeping on.


in fashion they are called combat boots because of the style is similar to true combat boots,


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 25, 2014)

I see where your coming from, I'm used to them being called over the calf boots, there's also another name but im forgetting it right now. but I haven't heard those styles called combat boots. Again that's just me and how I view it from a combat boot standpoint.

You said that you don't drive either and I believe you mentioned something about not being in the states. If you don't mind me asking where you from?


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## sunni (Feb 25, 2014)

Yes I get your point you'll have to argue it out with the fashion world than on that one  lol I'm Canadian


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 25, 2014)

Gotcha, so do you not drive because you just take public transportation or? Also what is your personal reason for being vegan if you don't mind. I personally couldnt be myself I love meat to much.


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## May11th (Feb 25, 2014)

Vegan pussy shoes lol I'm laughing so hard for no reason i just don't agree with vegans. I like meat in my mouth and want a woman the same lol sounds horrible but steak is my favorite food . Organic beer raised cows, yum.


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## sunni (Feb 25, 2014)

snowboarder396 said:


> Gotcha, so do you not drive because you just take public transportation or? Also what is your personal reason for being vegan if you don't mind. I personally couldnt be myself I love meat to much.


i have my license and i drive an electric scooter to get around. as its better for the enviroment, and its fun! 
for being vegan plenty of reasons i did it as a 22 day test just for fun some like a challenge than i started researching
heres a couple of videos to watch if youd like

Vegucated - Netflix
Earthlings Documentary - found on youtube for free

Those videos can explain better than i ever could.


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## hyroot (Feb 25, 2014)

May11th said:


> Vegan pussy shoes lol I'm laughing so hard for no reason i just don't agree with vegans. I like meat in my mouth and want a woman the same lol sounds horrible but steak is my favorite food . Organic beer raised cows, yum.


there so many dirty jokes in that hahahahahahaha








ii eat birds and fish, i stopped eating red meat and pork 15 years ago. our bodies are not designed to process and fully digest red meat. plus the nitrates will give you diverticulosis.5 years ago i was tricked into eating a ham sandwich. i took 2 bites and new it wasn't turkey. it killed my stomach


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## Olears (Feb 26, 2014)

snowboarder396 said:


> Gotcha, so do you not drive because you just take public transportation or? Also what is your personal reason for being vegan if you don't mind. I personally couldnt be myself I love meat to much.


we dont have public transit in canada. We just hook our igloos up to sled dogs and away we go ooooo!


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 26, 2014)

Lol you mean ride polar bears? My gf is Canadian and one day with her family we were joking about the different stereotypes on both sides and how some people even believe some of them.


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## keysareme (Feb 28, 2014)

I ate vegetarian for three months, and then added in dairy again (mainly cheese and eggs).

For two full years I was eating Organic Vegan, and just recently I worked for a start-up that does Organic Dairy Ice Cream, what attracted me was the job involved working at farmers markets. Soon though, I was eating their organic ice cream sandwiches, and that was the first large portion of dairy I had consumed in 2 years. 

Until then, I had been really good about not accepting any food from any source unless I knew for sure it was sourced non-gmo, organic and vegan. I had only consumed non-organic foods at most three times, and possibly a gmo as I had a few edibles that were gifts for joining local collectives and making a donation. These were edibles I had vowed never to eat, and had set aside in a dark drawer, only to one day, amidst my own created mess, decided to consume both of them, and could taste all that crap right away, and could feel it immensely the next day. 

My current job, or one of them, is about 80% organic, a few of the vegetables, and spices are not organic, but I am most certain they are non-gmo. I have also consumed more cheese in the past two months than I had over the entire two years of eating organic vegan, as she makes tamales and the cheese chili, smoked cheddar and goat cheese, taste great, are overall pretty healthy, cause of how and where she sources her ingredients, and her masa is non-gmo %100 organic, and so is some of the cheese, but it's still dairy, and I know for sure, for me dairy is not valuable. 

I can, and do, and enjoy more to obtain my calcium from an abundance of fruits and vegetables, and find that eating this way, with lots of beans and legumes, garbanzo, lentils, quinoa are my mains, to be what helps me to feel best. There are a whole bunch more benefits I could list that I have experienced from eating organic vegan. 

My garden medical, is not yet vegan. It is organic. As for my fruit and vegetables, I will run an organic grow, and also a vegan organic grow, same fruits and vegetables, just two sets of pots, planters and medium.


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## hyroot (Feb 28, 2014)

Hey Sunni I've been using the down to earth vegan mix topdressed along with kelp meal, neem meal and rock dust. All veganic. Best regiment I've ever used so far. I have a couple friends who swear by the same vegan mix. You might like those. Everyone who uses it seems to be killing it with big yields and great quality.


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## DonPetro (Feb 28, 2014)

hyroot said:


> Hey Sunni I've been using the down to earth vegan mix topdressed along with kelp meal, neem meal and rock dust. All veganic. Best regiment I've ever used so far. I have a couple friends who swear by the same vegan mix. You might like those. Everyone who uses it seems to be killing it with big yields and great quality.


Thats good to know. I want to go veganic for my herb. Not sure how yields would be affected. This what i was gonna go with:


Base Mix:
3 gal humus-based soil/compost
2 gal perlite
2 gal coconut coir
2 gal worm castings

Amendments:
2 cups dolomite lime
1 cup greensand
2 cups alfalfa meal
1 cup kelp meal
1/4 cup soft rock phosphate
1/4 cup rock phosphate(granular)
1 cup brown rice
1/2 cup neem meal
1/2 cup glacial rock dust


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## sunni (Feb 28, 2014)

keysareme said:


> I ate vegetarian for three months, and then added in dairy again (mainly cheese and eggs).
> 
> For two full years I was eating Organic Vegan, and just recently I worked for a start-up that does Organic Dairy Ice Cream, what attracted me was the job involved working at farmers markets. Soon though, I was eating their organic ice cream sandwiches, and that was the first large portion of dairy I had consumed in 2 years.
> 
> ...


uhm vegetarians eat dairy and cheese and eggs. vegans dont. lol



hyroot said:


> Hey Sunni I've been using the down to earth vegan mix topdressed along with kelp meal, neem meal and rock dust. All veganic. Best regiment I've ever used so far. I have a couple friends who swear by the same vegan mix. You might like those. Everyone who uses it seems to be killing it with big yields and great quality.


i already have all their products


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## keysareme (Feb 28, 2014)

sunni said:


> uhm vegetarians eat dairy and cheese and eggs. vegans dont. lol


oh well, ok.


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## sunni (Feb 28, 2014)

keysareme said:


> oh well, ok.


if you ate vegetarian for three months than added egg milk and cheese you would still be vegetarian LOL I believe youre confused. or i read your posts wrong.

Kinda like how some "vegan" lady came into my work requested vegan food than decided she was "flexible" and had a steak



*Semi-vegetarian:* Someone who&#8217;s cutting back on his or her intake of meat, in general. A pollo vegetarian avoids red meat and fish but eats chicken. A pesco pollo vegetarian avoids red meat but eats chicken and fish.
These terms stretch the true definition of a vegetarian, and only the term semi-vegetarian is actually used with much frequency.

*Lacto ovo vegetarian:* A lacto ovo vegetarian diet excludes meat, fish, and poultry but includes dairy products and eggs. Most vegetarians in the U.S., Canada, and Western Europe fall into this category. Lacto ovo vegetarians eat such foods as cheese, ice cream, yogurt, milk, and eggs, as well as foods made with these ingredients.

*Lacto vegetarian:* A lacto vegetarian diet excludes meat, fish, and poultry, as well as eggs and any foods containing eggs. A lacto vegetarian would, however, eat dairy products such as milk, yogurt, and cheese.

*Vegan:* Technically, the term vegan refers to more than just the diet alone. A vegan is a vegetarian who avoids eating or using all animal products, including meat, fish, poultry, eggs, dairy products, any foods containing by-products of these ingredients, wool, silk, leather, and any nonfood items made with animal byproducts. Some vegans avoid honey.


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## mckenzie41 (Apr 23, 2014)

Is this thread dead are you still around matt you might be interested in my vegganic grow lol, im using the full canna bio line in hydro although my soil contained blood meal and bone meal i didn't realize otherwise i would have bought canna terra pro + as it contains no nutes.


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## NyQuilkush318 (Jun 5, 2014)

[QUOyou use blueberries/water as a flush through the hole flowering stageTE="Matt Rize, post: 4611583, member: 285126"]Then there is the media situation. I want to talk about Bio Terra Plus, BUT it's not available in the US (cali for sure) right now. ARGH! The Bio terra plus is on a level all its own right now in the media world. The price reflects that too...but it is amazing. I've read on here someone said to break it up, NO WAY, you are paying for the chunks. Research soil aggregate structure sometime. The diversity in the soil leads to microclimates. Microclimates lead to diverse microbe and beneficial fungi populations. Diverse populations lead to pH buffering, nitrogen fixation, root symbiosis, and overall pathogen resistance.

I want to big up Dr. VD before I go farther. I just found your thread yesterday. Like minds my friend.

Now I have to address perlite. Yes, the terra plus hold a lot of water. I can see how feeding more often in a lighter mix might make it easier to push nutes. I made the decision to go all natural, and perlite is not part of that. My grandmother taught me how to water soil that holds too much water. We'll get to water later.

To explain more: perlite is dead space in the microbial world. For me, it is not about feeding more, or more often. It is about maintaining a healthy root zone, and feeding both the roots and the microbes. The microbes in turn eat and their "poo" feeds the plants while I'm waiting to water again. By the time full roots have developed I'm watering my medium sized plants (in 4 gallon pots filled with terra plus straight outta the bag) about every-other day, just right IMHO.[/QUOTE]
Can


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## Fast50 (Jun 15, 2014)

Anyone care to share some results using the canna bio line or gh organics lol and supplements they used. Would be hella appreciated.I need a sweet nutrient regime.


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## High_Haze (Jul 22, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> I see alot of words like vegan and organics, what anout sustainabity?
> They are all connected in their true meaning.
> SUSTAINABILITY is VEGAN and SUSTAINABILITY is ORGANICS
> 
> Imo yall are getting off track with yall non sense


+for truth



sunni said:


> its not that i dont care if its organic but my priority list is
> vegan
> organic
> 
> so vegan would be first priority over organic


Sunni,

Im glad to see someone around here who knows their stuff. Big ups for doing your own research and seeking the truth. Small minds cant comprehend big spirits. To be great, you have to be willing to be mocked, hated, and misunderstood. Stay strong.


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## Pattahabi (Jul 22, 2014)

Sorry, no EWC with Veganics! Worms are animals!

*Veganism* /ˈviːɡənɪzəm/ is the *practice of abstaining from the use of animal products*, particularly in diet, as well as following an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of sentient animals. A follower of veganism is known as a *vegan*.

Kingdom: Animalia 
Phylum: Annelida 
Class: Oligochaeta 
Subclass: Haplotaxida 
Order: Megadrilacea 
Suborder: Lumbricina + Moniligastrida


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## sunni (Jul 22, 2014)

Yup I am vegan you are right !


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## DonTesla (Nov 29, 2014)

Are eggshells considered bones?
P?


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## greasemonkeymann (Dec 1, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> Are eggshells considered bones?
> P?


good question, but does it matter? I thought anything animal oriented was a no-no for veganics.. right?
so it's an animal product either way, right?
going from memory I think they are close, but not the same.
eggs are mostly calcium carbonate, and bones are mostly calcium phosphate (why bone meal has K in it)
so I would say that no, they are different.
Does that help?


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## DonPetro (Dec 1, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> good question, but does it matter? I thought anything animal oriented was a no-no for veganics.. right?
> so it's an animal product either way, right?
> going from memory I think they are close, but not the same.
> eggs are mostly calcium carbonate, and bones are mostly calcium phosphate (why bone meal has K in it)
> ...


Isn't "K" potassium? But yea, wouldn't classify as veganic. Plant and mineral based amendments only i believe.


----------



## sunni (Dec 1, 2014)

eggshells not vegan. 

ya heard it here first folks from a vegan!


----------



## DonTesla (Dec 1, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> good question, but does it matter? I thought anything animal oriented was a no-no for veganics.. right?
> so it's an animal product either way, right?
> going from memory I think they are close, but not the same.
> eggs are mostly calcium carbonate, and bones are mostly calcium phosphate (why bone meal has K in it)
> ...


yea, thanks..
I was thinking could it be considered vegetarian not necessarily vegan, cause ya vegans are strict some don't even eat honey


----------



## sunni (Dec 1, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> yea, thanks..
> I was thinking could it be considered vegetarian not necessarily vegan, cause ya vegans are strict some don't even eat honey


lol were not strict so much

think of it this way
if its_ from_ or_ comes_ _from_ an animal we dont use/eat it ect.


----------



## DonTesla (Dec 1, 2014)

sunni said:


> lol were not strict so much
> 
> think of it this way
> if its_ from_ or_ comes_ _from_ an animal we dont use/eat it ect.


I should have said very conscientious and wisely aware, not strict.. I was a vegetarian once, I really love the idea.

Longest week of my life.

lol

I really need a girlfriend who cooks well with spices, maybe even grows organic vegetables.
How am i ever going to transition with chinese food in every city. lol


----------



## st0wandgrow (Dec 2, 2014)

sunni said:


> eggshells not vegan.
> 
> ya heard it here first folks from a vegan!


Eggs and cheese are the two reasons why I can't go vegan. I'd be lost at breakfast. 




DonTesla said:


> I should have said very conscientious and wisely aware, not strict.. I was a vegetarian once, I really love the idea.
> 
> Longest week of my life.
> 
> ...


LOL DT!! 

My wife is vegetarian so it was real easy for me to make the switch. Honestly the thought of eating meat at this point kinda gags me. Fish might be the only exception to that, but red meat or pork.... no way!


----------



## sunni (Dec 2, 2014)

its pretty easy you just dont put it in your mouth.
i dunno why everyone thinks its so hard ive never fallen off the wagon so to speak, its been about 3ish years now..i dont find it an inconvenience i dont find it hard it is only mildly annoying when:

-you have to find brands that are vegan at first so reading ingredient labels for hidden words.
-going OUT to eat a restaurant (gotta call ahead)
-christmas/thanksgiving...and the never ending questions about why youre not eating turkey even though they know why , but they think its a diet and you should cheat


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Dec 2, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Isn't "K" potassium? But yea, wouldn't classify as veganic. Plant and mineral based amendments only i believe.


yes indeedy, somehow I always confuse the two, and yet I can still list off mostly all the organic nutrients NPKs by memory.... dumbass


----------



## DonPetro (Dec 2, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> yes indeedy, somehow I always confuse the two, and yet I can still list off mostly all the organic nutrients NPKs by memory.... dumbass


Don't sweat it. I was just busting your balls. I used to confuse the two all the time.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Dec 2, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Don't sweat it. I was just busting your balls. I used to confuse the two all the time.


ahh man, and my girl did that all last weekend too, I think I have busted ball fragments in my pants...
like fifteen or twenty little baby-nuts rolling around in there


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Dec 2, 2014)

sunni said:


> its pretty easy you just dont put it in your mouth.
> i dunno why everyone thinks its so hard ive never fallen off the wagon so to speak, its been about 3ish years now..i dont find it an inconvenience i dont find it hard it is only mildly annoying when:
> 
> -you have to find brands that are vegan at first so reading ingredient labels for hidden words.
> ...


It can be very hard when you look at the costs. Even going organic is expensive. Here in the Midwest I physically cannot afford to live and eat Vegan.


----------



## sunni (Dec 2, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> It can be very hard when you look at the costs. Even going organic is expensive. Here in the Midwest I physically cannot afford to live and eat Vegan.


Beans chickpeas lentils 1$ max


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Dec 2, 2014)

sunni said:


> Beans chickpeas lentils 1$ max


I eat more than 3 things man lol


----------



## st0wandgrow (Dec 2, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I think I have busted ball fragments in my pants...
> like fifteen or twenty little baby-nuts rolling around in there


Free aeration bits?

Sorry, my mind is always on this shit.




Midwest Weedist said:


> It can be very hard when you look at the costs. Even going organic is expensive. Here in the Midwest I physically cannot afford to live and eat Vegan.


That's not true, especially considering you can grow a good portion of the food
yourself.


----------



## sunni (Dec 2, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I eat more than 3 things man lol


my wifi got caught off, sorry lol , let me repost.

if youre going to buy into the prepackaged vegan foods, yes it can be expensive, if you eat out 4 times a week yes it can be expensive.

if you eat regular already vegan food it is cheap. Rough average of cost 
Pantry foods/Items :

beans, (black, white kidney ect) (canned more expensive at 67 cents per can, dry more of a pain in the ass to do but are cheaper at 1$ but more aount)
TVP - 3$
Bulgar, 2$
Quinoa 3$
Couscous 2$
flour 3$
Chia seeds 2$
Flax seeds 2$
Lentils, legumes, ect 1$ (bags dried)
Baking soda 1$
baking powder 2$
Pasta 1$
Rice noodles 2$
Rice paper 2$
Rice 4$
Spices while generally expensive last long average amount of spices is roughly 10$

Vegetables (obviously youre not going to buy ALL of these at one go)
Carrots 2$
onions 2$
lettuce (depending on season ) 3$
bell peppers 2$
cucumbers 80 cents
tomatoes 1$
eggplant 2$
Spinach 1$
Garlic fresh 80 cents pack of 5
zucchini 2$
Cabbage 2$
bok choy 1$
radishes 1$
raddico 2$
artichoke 4/5$
corn 5/2$
squashes usually 70 cents per lbs
sprouts 2$
potatoes 3$
sweet potatoes 3$

Frozen foods:
Brussels sprouts 2$
frozen veggies 1-2$
juice 70 cents

Fruit:
bananas 70 cent
berries usually 3/5$
avocados 5/4$
pears 1$
apples 2$ (bag)
Frozen fruit for smoothies 4$

Additional vegan foods/condiments:
Tofu 1$
bbq sauce 1$
ketchup 2$
mustard 1$
salad dressings 1-2$
evoo 5$
almond milk 1$
oats 2$
sugAR 2$

balsamic vinny 3$

It is entirely cheap to be vegan thats 120$ worth of food roughly, most of the pantry staples will last longer than the month, veggies obviously will be bought every 1 -2 weeks depending how much you personally eat.
I am sure i have missed some food items, but it is not expensive to eat vegan thats a huge common misconception


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Dec 2, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Free aeration bits?
> 
> Sorry, my mind is always on this shit.
> 
> ...


hahahha, ahh man, that's a good one, it'd be a one of a kind grow for sure, and hell, maybe i'm being arrogant, but i'd like to believe i'd have enough testosterone in those baby-nuts to cause a hermaphrodite or two...


----------



## DonTesla (Dec 2, 2014)

I want to eat my own organic fruits! Oranges, Pears, Apples, Grapes, Raspberries, Strawberries, Peaches! MO!! Can i Move in!? lol


----------



## st0wandgrow (Dec 2, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> hahahha, ahh man, that's a good one, it'd be a one of a kind grow for sure, and hell, maybe i'm being arrogant, but i'd like to believe i'd have enough testosterone in those baby-nuts to cause a hermaphrodite or two...


Haha! I'm 100% positive you'd have (at least) a nanner or two in the mix




DonTesla said:


> I want to eat my own organic fruits! Oranges, Pears, Apples, Grapes, Raspberries, Strawberries, Peaches! MO!! Can i Move in!? lol


Move to BC! I spent a good part of my childhood in the Okanagan Valley and I had 2 apple trees, 2 peach trees, 3 cherry trees, and a plum tree all in my back yard. It was fan-friggin-tastic except for the summer that my mom decided to rent a juicer and make apple juice. I had apple juice in my lunch every single day for two years straight. 

Scarred for life


----------



## DonPetro (Dec 2, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Haha! I'm 100% positive you'd have (at least) a nanner or two in the mix
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats where i wanna be...the Valley.


----------



## DonTesla (Dec 2, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Haha! I'm 100% positive you'd have (at least) a nanner or two in the mix


ALWAYS!!! Pineapple too if i could.. Pina Coloda's with cocOil at my place, EVERYDAY!


----------



## DonPetro (Dec 2, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> ALWAYS!!! Pineapple too if i could.. Pina Coloda's with cocOil at my place, EVERYDAY!


Make mine a tall!


----------



## desertdog (Dec 15, 2014)

Can you guys suggest a book or two for me? I am liking teaming with microbes because I found the recipes to be effective so far. I got some of them in the organic section here. Thanks for all of your posts this stuff is amazing to say the least. I am growing an organic Black Afgan in a drip bucket I made and it grows over an inch per day with three feedings of teas per week in Organic soil coco mix I make. I am very happy and know I have safe clean meds. Now I know I can use Lavender oil and soap and my bugs are just gone after killing most of plants and starting over from seed stock. Organic and vegan works when all else failed to kill the fucking spider mites from hell. The cunts came back after all the shit I used, but they are done with Lavender oil and soap. Go figure mother nature did it millions of years ago and to this day. Thanks again you guys I am lovin this stuff and so are all of vegetables and my sweet girls of paradise, lol.


Matt Rize said:


> Welcome fellow (and future) vegan organic gardeners. I'll begin by saying I've been working on a revolutionary growing system with ganja guru Kyle Kushman. He calls it Kushman's Veganics and it includes all aspects of gardening.
> 
> And secondly, I am not a vegan, nor do I promote a vegan diet for humans. I get my meat from the farmer's market, and it is spectacular, support local ranches and eff fast food. Sorry, I digress.
> 
> ...


uf


----------



## desertdog (Dec 15, 2014)

stonedmetalhead1 said:


> There are plenty of ways to get smooth smoke from regular organics and if there is enough hash content it doesn't matter how smooth it is, you're going to cough.


That is interesting, I am gonna have to try complete veganic to see if I get the same effect. That is cool.


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 11, 2015)

Yeah man, I'm trying it, but instead of spending a fortune on Canna Bio, I'll be using my Nettle and Comfrey tea!!! BUT still spending a smaller fortune on enzymes, fulvic n humic . . . .



desertdog said:


> That is interesting, I am gonna have to try complete veganic to see if I get the same effect. That is cool.


0


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jul 5, 2015)

Gluetrap chopped at day 63 grown all organically and veganically! Whoever says you need bottles and animal byproducts to pack on weight is wroooong (=


----------



## cannakis (Jul 14, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Eggs and cheese are the two reasons why I can't go vegan. I'd be lost at breakfast.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is No way I Am giving up my GOD Blessed Pork! Or Beef, or Chicken! 

Fire, Salt, Apple Cider Vinegar, Pork... Best thing on earth.! Pepper too..

Every Single vegan and vegetarian ones that Truly adhere to it are some of the Most Sickly people I've seen, pale, dark eyes, scrawny...

Meat is good for.
Vegetables are for the Livestock.


----------



## cannakis (Jul 14, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> It can be very hard when you look at the costs. Even going organic is expensive. Here in the Midwest I physically cannot afford to live and eat Vegan.


Who the fuck would want to!?!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jul 14, 2015)

cannakis said:


> There is No way I Am giving up my GOD Blessed Pork! Or Beef, or Chicken!
> 
> Fire, Salt, Apple Cider Vinegar, Pork... Best thing on earth.! Pepper too..
> 
> ...


Huh. I played in the NHL and am in great shape. 6'3" 225lbs. I don't think you'd consider me sickly or scrawny if you saw me. That's just a silly notion that all people that don't eat meat are unhealthy.


----------



## sunni (Jul 14, 2015)

cannakis said:


> There is No way I Am giving up my GOD Blessed Pork! Or Beef, or Chicken!
> 
> Fire, Salt, Apple Cider Vinegar, Pork... Best thing on earth.! Pepper too..
> 
> ...



vegan 5 years and strong, ya real sickly scrawny and pale


if youre against veganisim , than why come to a thread just to stir up and put down opinions that are not necessary and unwanted?


----------



## unwine99 (Jul 14, 2015)

sunni said:


> vegan 5 years and strong, ya real sickly scrawny and pale
> 
> 
> if youre against veganisim , than why come to a thread just to stir up and put down opinions that are not necessary and unwanted?


Wow, very beautiful!!!


----------



## sunni (Jul 14, 2015)

unwine99 said:


> Wow, very beautiful!!!


Thank you


----------



## DonPetro (Jul 14, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Huh. I played in the NHL and am in great shape. 6'3" 225lbs. I don't think you'd consider me sickly or scrawny if you saw me. That's just a silly notion that all people that don't eat meat are unhealthy.


I had a feeling you had an athletic background st0w.

@sunni your eyes are magic...i had no idea you were so lovely.


----------



## sunni (Jul 14, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> I had a feeling you had an athletic background st0w.
> 
> @sunni your eyes are magic...i had no idea you were so lovely.


Thanks


----------



## Mohican (Jul 14, 2015)

I thought you were an anime character!


----------



## sunni (Jul 14, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I thought you were an anime character!


Well a live one


----------



## cannakis (Jul 15, 2015)

sunni said:


> vegan 5 years and strong, ya real sickly scrawny and pale
> 
> 
> if youre against veganisim , than why come to a thread just to stir up and put down opinions that are not necessary and unwanted?


Haha well hey there pretty lady... I'm not saying I Am against "veganism" you can do whatever you want I Am just saying I disagree whole heartedly about it and I believe well Raised and Fed animals actually Is Beneficial and Healthy, for both Humans and Animals. 

But Veganics is an Extraordinary idea... Specifically providing Cannabis for Individuals who Truly Are sick and ail in health, because you are providing a GOD Blessed Herb without Any toxins whatsoever to the very Food of the plant... Which in Turn provides even Truer Virtues for the individual.

Just like animals are healthy and beneficial for humans If their Food and environment is Healthy.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jul 15, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> I had a feeling you had an athletic background st0w.
> 
> @sunni your eyes are magic...i had no idea you were so lovely.


neither did I, which would explain @yessica fondness of her...
Very pretty


----------



## sunni (Jul 15, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> neither did I, which would explain @yessica fondness of her...
> Very pretty


i havent been very picture posty in the last little bit to be honest, im a married woman now


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jul 15, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Huh. I played in the NHL and am in great shape. 6'3" 225lbs. I don't think you'd consider me sickly or scrawny if you saw me. That's just a silly notion that all people that don't eat meat are unhealthy.


Damn, now that's a big monkey!
From your pic you look a lil shorter and somewhat hairy.. 
Got me beat, i'm 6'4" but a scrawny 200lbs.
Actually my "fightin" weight is 190
Hmm, this thread is totally off topic, after slumbering for months.
Here lets try to get back on track.


Midwest Weedist said:


> Gluetrap chopped at day 63 grown all organically and veganically! Whoever says you need bottles and animal byproducts to pack on weight is wroooong (=


Dude that's a beautiful set of flowers, GREAT job, i'm dying to know what you used for phosphorus.
I just can't stop using my fish bone meal...


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jul 15, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> Damn, now that's a big monkey!
> From your pic you look a lil shorter and somewhat hairy..
> Got me beat, i'm 6'4" but a scrawny 200lbs.
> Actually my "fightin" weight is 190
> ...


Jeez you guys make me feel like a freaking twig, AND I EAT MEAT! I'm 6'3" and 140lbs with clothes, on a good day.
Thank you! My soil mix is pretty simple: Basemix - Cococoir, rice hulls / black lava rock, screened castings, screened compost. After that it's just Kelp meal, alfalfa meal, azomite, karanja/neem meal, screened rotten wood chunks from a local protected wooded area, and some native soil heavy in clay. I don't even mix my amendments in very heavily either. 
I water with feeder fish pond water and once a month-ish I add some unsulphured bsm. My key ingredient, imo, is kelp tea. I use coots rehydrated method so I always have some ready in my fridge to mix up whenever I need it. I've pretty much cut out everything of my watering schedule but kelp, bsm, young coconut water, and casting tea. Though I'm going to try implementing sunflower sprouts into my recipe to see if I can knock some overhead off and use ssts more again. Even aloe I only foliar with unless Im transplanting. I made some pretty heavy aacts a few times this last grow to compensate for some negligence, but other than that I've been stripping stuff away to keep it simple and cheap.


----------



## cannakis (Jul 15, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Jeez you guys make me feel like a freaking twig, AND I EAT MEAT! I'm 6'3" and 140lbs with clothes, on a good day.
> Thank you! My soil mix is pretty simple: Basemix - Cococoir, rice hulls / black lava rock, screened castings, screened compost. After that it's just Kelp meal, alfalfa meal, azomite, karanja/neem meal, screened rotten wood chunks from a local protected wooded area, and some native soil heavy in clay. I don't even mix my amendments in very heavily either.
> I water with feeder fish pond water and once a month-ish I add some unsulphured bsm. My key ingredient, imo, is kelp tea. I use coots rehydrated method so I always have some ready in my fridge to mix up whenever I need it. I've pretty much cut out everything of my watering schedule but kelp, bsm, young coconut water, and casting tea. Though I'm going to try implementing sunflower sprouts into my recipe to see if I can knock some overhead off and use ssts more again. Even aloe I only foliar with unless Im transplanting. I made some pretty heavy aacts a few times this last grow to compensate for some negligence, but other than that I've been stripping stuff away to keep it simple and cheap.


Hahaha I stand corrected... @stowandgrow i didn't know you played in nhl!?! That's pretty awesome... What team?


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jul 15, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Jeez you guys make me feel like a freaking twig, AND I EAT MEAT! I'm 6'3" and 140lbs with clothes, on a good day.
> Thank you! My soil mix is pretty simple: Basemix - Cococoir, rice hulls / black lava rock, screened castings, screened compost. After that it's just Kelp meal, alfalfa meal, azomite, karanja/neem meal, screened rotten wood chunks from a local protected wooded area, and some native soil heavy in clay. I don't even mix my amendments in very heavily either.
> I water with feeder fish pond water and once a month-ish I add some unsulphured bsm. My key ingredient, imo, is kelp tea. I use coots rehydrated method so I always have some ready in my fridge to mix up whenever I need it. I've pretty much cut out everything of my watering schedule but kelp, bsm, young coconut water, and casting tea. Though I'm going to try implementing sunflower sprouts into my recipe to see if I can knock some overhead off and use ssts more again. Even aloe I only foliar with unless Im transplanting. I made some pretty heavy aacts a few times this last grow to compensate for some negligence, but other than that I've been stripping stuff away to keep it simple and cheap.


I sure as hell can't knock anything you are doing, but maybe try to cultivate some comfrey and nettles, I bet they'd be helpful in that regard.
I have been contemplating a grow using just my compost, aeration and comfrey.
But even that isn't vegan, not even close..
got crab and shrimp meal, insect mashings, fish bone meal, fish meal...
Ummm I uh.. even threw four very dead mice that I got in there...
Stupid little fuckers kept messing with my food, and shitting on my eating utensils, I tried the non-lethal traps but these redwood mice are too damn big, plus they keep coming back..
I live in a lil cabin type thing and those bastard-mice crawl up the outside walls of my house and eat holes through my screen to steal my food!
And my 50 lb pitbull does nothing but THIS. (see pics)


----------



## Mohican (Jul 15, 2015)

I think wood ash is a good source of phos. I also use phosphoric acid to lower the pH of my tap water. It also turns out that avocadoes require periodic phosphoric acid waterings to deter bad root issues!


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jul 15, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I sure as hell can't knock anything you are doing, but maybe try to cultivate some comfrey and nettles, I bet they'd be helpful in that regard.
> I have been contemplating a grow using just my compost, aeration and comfrey.
> But even that isn't vegan, not even close..
> got crab and shrimp meal, insect mashings, fish bone meal, fish meal...
> ...


Already on it! I've got some comfrey propagating as well as a couple of cover crops that would probably considered dynamic accumulators. As soon as my veggies in one of my beds are done I'll transplant my accumulators into it so I have a plethora to harvest next year for a massive soil mix I plan on mixing up.
If it's been composted, is it still considered an animal byproduct? I've always been unclear on the specific definitions of such things.
Sounds like you've got your hands full with those little bastards, never been a fan of mice. You should invest in a cat, they're usually great at killing anything smaller than themselves.
I'd bet that if you had enough soil mass you could get a good harvest from that mix. I've kept plants alive in vermicompost / screened wood compost for almost two months with just water and aloe. (Vermi)Compost is king! If the stuff wasn't so clumpy and hydrophobic when dry I'd use it, my amendments, and just enough aeration to prevent compaction.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jul 15, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I think wood ash is a good source of phos. I also use phosphoric acid to lower the pH of my tap water. It also turns out that avocadoes require periodic phosphoric acid waterings to deter bad root issues!


I use the ash from my spent bud from my pieces in my garden, it's never very much but I imagine it's still a great source.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jul 15, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I use the ash from my spent bud from my pieces in my garden, it's never very much but I imagine it's still a great source.


you know that's ironic, I was pondering that same thing when I dumped my ashtray out yesterday.
I knoe technically it's the "hardwood" ash you want, but I can'i imagine cannabis ashes hurting anything.
Weird though, I've been growing for yrs and yrs and NEVER crossed my mind to use cannabis ashes in my soil.
Until yesterday
oh and I hear ya on the cat...
but we have owls, bobcats, cougars (not the sexy older MILF type either), and an un-fixed german shepard that is near my cabin...
soooo.. yea... a kitty will be merely food.
And keeping it inside is just cruel considering...
annnnnnd I hate litterboxes.....


----------



## Mohican (Jul 15, 2015)

I put it all in my compost and the worms seem to be very happy and reproductive 

@sunni - He is a lucky man!


----------



## Mohican (Jul 15, 2015)

Hash pictures (Matt made this possible):















Holy Smoke Mulanje Gold Landrace Sativa - best hash I have ever enjoyed 


Cheers,
Mo


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jul 15, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Already on it! I've got some comfrey propagating as well as a couple of cover crops that would probably considered dynamic accumulators. As soon as my veggies in one of my beds are done I'll transplant my accumulators into it so I have a plethora to harvest next year for a massive soil mix I plan on mixing up.
> If it's been composted, is it still considered an animal byproduct? I've always been unclear on the specific definitions of such things.
> Sounds like you've got your hands full with those little bastards, never been a fan of mice. You should invest in a cat, they're usually great at killing anything smaller than themselves.
> I'd bet that if you had enough soil mass you could get a good harvest from that mix. I've kept plants alive in vermicompost / screened wood compost for almost two months with just water and aloe. (Vermi)Compost is king! If the stuff wasn't so clumpy and hydrophobic when dry I'd use it, my amendments, and just enough aeration to prevent compaction.


hell I germinate my seeds in pure compost.
Only reason I did that is because I kept seeing avocado seeds germinate in my compost pile, and I swear I have a hard-ass time to germinate avocados for some reason.
Finally got one to actually take and now I have an 18inch avocado tree.. errrr plant.
All my Bodhi seeds I popped in pure compost, and then stuck em in party cups with just compost and volcanic rock. They shot off way faster than a seed-starter mix


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jul 15, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I put it all in my compost and the worms seem to be very happy and reproductive
> 
> @sunni - He is a lucky man!


so true man, I really think my compost pile has more reds in it than my wormbin.
Course it's a big-ass pile, but still.
I scrape away a quarter inch off the top of the compost pile and there are redworms EVERYWHERE.
I don't feed them either, they just eat rootballs and the leaves/amendments I have in there.
off topic, those hash pics are cool looking, i'm just trippin on the cool effect of the water coming out, nice camera.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jul 15, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Hash pictures (Matt made this possible):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that a Matt Ryze method? Btw, FUCK that looks like good hash. 



greasemonkeymann said:


> you know that's ironic, I was pondering that same thing when I dumped my ashtray out yesterday.
> I knoe technically it's the "hardwood" ash you want, but I can'i imagine cannabis ashes hurting anything.
> Weird though, I've been growing for yrs and yrs and NEVER crossed my mind to use cannabis ashes in my soil.
> Until yesterday
> ...


My thought was that if anything at least it would give it some carbon.
hahaha yeah definitely not a cat friendly home. Not in the slightest. I really hate the litter box situation but it's less of a hassle than letting a dog or dogs out multiple times a day, imo. I like that my cats pretty much take care of themselves.


----------



## cannakis (Jul 17, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Hash pictures (Matt made this possible):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful brother! You have any pictures of the bud itself or is it not bag worthy? That's some beautiful hash I Am dying to taste and ride it!


----------



## Mohican (Jul 17, 2015)

Cheers,
Mo


----------



## ShLUbY (Aug 25, 2015)

Looking sweet Mo!


----------



## GrowJahsGift (Aug 25, 2015)

Wow they look like they finished up just right man good job!


----------



## ShLUbY (Sep 16, 2015)

Well, I have purchased the vegamatrix products to use on the next few runs of plants i have until my switch to ROLS no till is in full swing; which seems to take a while lol! Looking forward to trying out the stuff. friend of mine has great results with vegamatrix line. The only bottle i didnt buy was the zyme. i should read more about it but i figured i could supply enzymes with coconut water, SSTs, and what not.


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## ShLUbY (Oct 6, 2015)

Here's the run of plants I'll be using the vegamatrix on. Black Domina, Dr. Who, 9lb Hammer, Jack's Cleaner 2, Confidential Cheese. So far I'm loving the vegamatrix products. have seen no sensitivity to the nutes whatsoever. Everything so happy! I'll be flipping a few of these soon.


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## Mr.Sprout (Oct 14, 2015)

upthearsenal said:


> are worm castings vegan?





Matt Rize said:


> With the theory out there, let's go to practice. Vegan is showing up on all sorts of labels these days, but the word itself means little. Most chemy nutes are vegan. What I am talking about when I say veganics is plant-based nutes.
> 
> That brings us to the best nute company in the world, CANNA. Who else has the balls to directly label the product this way? I've never tested their chemy lines but have read great reviews. The BioCanna line is the backbone of veganics, and on a level all its own in the nute world. Don't you just love the smell of Vega and Flores? Yum, like molasses and soy sauce. If you are on a budget the BioBoost can be foliar fed, but both is better . One thing to note is that advanced gardeners will have to feed heavy and possibly supplement N in veg and P/K in flower for optimal results. The BioCanna website has lots of great info about the special process of plant fermentation and extraction used to make this unique line of nutes. They are sourcing from all over the world to make the best vegan organic plant-extract nutes.


yea use CANNABIO too,but i also use some organics hydrponics ,they have veganic product too http://generalhydroponics.com/site/index.php/products/general_organics/


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## Mohican (Oct 14, 2015)

GH was recently bought by Miracle Grow. I wonder if they will continue to have top quality products?


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## Mr.CrumWell (Oct 14, 2015)

decided to go veganics after i had a tote of noots left out whole season. the only noots that didn't rot and smell just rank were the plant based ones. 500$+ of animal shit ruined. then i though hmmm if you promote similar conditions in the soil it will rot in there too. 

so after looking at vegan noots i decided on down to earth. most of there products are omri listed and a million dollars cheaper then things marketed as veganic like dragon fly.

so now what i use is

down to earth pro mix soil (SOIL)

down to earth vegan mix (based mix for soil)

then i brew teas using these ingredients depending on veg or bloom

agmino powder (nitrogen)

liquid calcium 

azomite 

*langbeinite 

humic acid

root zone

and a few other things if i have the $

BUT i have yet to find a good organic & veganic source of phosphorus

any one have an affordable option i could check out?

I'm the type of grower that factors every dollar spent into cost per gram to produce so dragon fly earth medicine and some of the other trendy vegan lines were a bit pricy for me. 
*


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## ShLUbY (Oct 14, 2015)

Mr.CrumWell said:


> *BUT i have yet to find a good organic & veganic source of phosphorus
> 
> any one have an affordable option i could check out?*


Dr. Earth Soft Rock Phosphate


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## Mr.CrumWell (Oct 14, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> Dr. Earth Soft Rock Phosphate



bawwwws

thank you


----------



## vitamin_green_inc (Oct 18, 2015)

I have read soft rock phosphate is no Bueno for indoors cannabis, metals-heavy heavy metals leaching into buds?


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## ShLUbY (Oct 18, 2015)

vitamin_green_inc said:


> I have read soft rock phosphate is no Bueno for indoors cannabis, metals-heavy heavy metals leaching into buds?


oh that would be no bueno cause i just mixed up 40 gal of soil with soft rock phosphate in it. that would be a bummer. but all the rock dusts have heavy metals too... don't they?


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## Mohican (Oct 18, 2015)

The leaves pull in the toxins to protect the vital organs.


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## ShLUbY (Oct 23, 2015)

Mohican said:


> The leaves pull in the toxins to protect the vital organs.


i just read that biochar, and other materials that make a high CEC soil, bind up toxins that can be present in soils. can't wait until my char and charless 20 gals are done cooking! can't wait to see the difference, i'm thinking by the 3rd run the biochar will be dialed in... and at first i may not see much difference.


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## mid-western outdoor (Oct 28, 2015)

So when using the bio canna do you not need to use a P/K? Do they make a bio P/K? I love canna everyone claims its way over priced but I always feed at the lowest ppm recommended and my plants love it and I'm vegan as well and been wanting to step away from synthetic nutes VEGANICS IS THE TRUTH!!! I got buddies doing indoor no till and their buds are the tastiest and smoothest smoke iv ever consumed


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## ShLUbY (Oct 28, 2015)

so i'm running some plants with vegamatrix and i'm looking at the feeding schedule on the site, and it says enzymes weekly, is that one addition per week? i'm just using coconut water for enzymes. Also, i remember seeing somewhere that Matt Rize uses BSM every watering... is this still true? if so, what rate do you guys include the BSM/gal? looking forward to the seeing some good results. so far the con cheese are looking great!


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## oldbikepunk (Nov 19, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Hash pictures (Matt made this possible):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's fucking amazing.


----------



## oldbikepunk (Nov 19, 2015)

oldbikepunk said:


> That's fucking amazing.


I'm going to be on that later when i have materials again. I actually rototilled and BBQ'd a lot of weed i had to play with after a police visit two years ago. I was over the grow limit here, but nothing happened at all. Saw it, saw my papers, and said they'd deal with it later..so i garbaged down to legal limits and a good neighbor dried a pound for me to be safe. It's the SF Bay Area, but still. You never know. I'm making hash later. I've been reading the information here for a year. It's really great.


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## oldbikepunk (Nov 19, 2015)

sunni said:


> my wifi got caught off, sorry lol , let me repost.
> 
> if youre going to buy into the prepackaged vegan foods, yes it can be expensive, if you eat out 4 times a week yes it can be expensive.
> 
> ...


One of my three kids, an 18 year old twin girl and horse trainer has gone vegan. We love animals but I'm not vegan. This stuff on RIU is both interesting and hilarious at times.


----------



## oldbikepunk (Nov 19, 2015)

sunni said:


> vegan 5 years and strong, ya real sickly scrawny and pale
> 
> 
> if youre against veganisim , than why come to a thread just to stir up and put down opinions that are not necessary and unwanted?


True that.


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## oldbikepunk (Nov 19, 2015)

oldbikepunk said:


> True that.


I'd be more concerned with China's excessive use of antibiotics which has led to the evolution of an antibiotic-proof bug. For the production of meats. I'm not veg or vegan, but the criticism of veganism is like some old lady nagging. Let's take cod-liver oil too. And spank kids. sorry..lmao..off track indeed. Sorry! my lights on. L-R: Blue Dream; Platinum GSC; Sherbet (pink Panther); and 3 little ones-Alien OG; THC Bomb; Key Lime Pie clones. And two males just til flowering is induced and I'll remove them. The attention to soil here is intense. I've had 4' x 10' x 2' out door compost with chickens and rabbits and hay. I just use Frog Farm Frog dirt. It burns plants if i even add a little fertilizer at the bottom so it's best alone with extra perlite. These are almost all Dark Heart Nursery clones. Only THC Bomb is someone else. It's the Bay's premier clone provider essentially. I cross clones up with TGA-strain males. Sherbet smells like a stinky foot or something and it's only 3 weeks in. Dank odor of kush.


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## TenEmies (Nov 21, 2015)

Ugg Matt rise


----------



## anzohaze (Nov 21, 2015)

Mr.CrumWell said:


> bawwwws
> 
> thank you


Look at a local gardening store they will have everything you need not taking Walmart etc. A store that's for plants only


----------



## New_Caprica (Jan 29, 2016)

Matt Rize said:


> I smoke a lot. You guys understand. Paradoxically, I prefer the pain killing affect of kushes, while needing the uplift of sativas. And at the same time I have a lot of sh*t to do in my life. I try to stay as clear and as alert as possible, especially when i go rock climbing for fear of death by falling then smashing.
> 
> Organics has always been cleaner and more clear than the chem (again IMO). But when the affects wore off it often left me feeling groggy. With veganics I've found that goes away. The affects wear off and I don't get the yawns anymore. In addition I can medicate much more chill because the smoke is significantly smoother. I DON'T COUGH SINCE I SWITCHED TO VEGANICS!
> 
> ...



Do you think I can bug you, possibly a lot when we get our growing going? We are waiting for the MM license to get processed but we are Vegan so this really did interest me. Also, I am a fan of as natural as possible.


----------



## sunni (Jan 29, 2016)

New_Caprica said:


> Do you think I can bug you, possibly a lot when we get our growing going? We are waiting for the MM license to get processed but we are Vegan so this really did interest me. Also, I am a fan of as natural as possible.


matt rize no longer posts on here but he does have an instragram, however if you are an ethical vegan i highly suggest read all of matt rizes information
along with kyle kushmans information and website
http://kylekushman.com/

dont expect people to spoon feed you information here, you will have to do almost all the research yourself. but luckily our website has been around since 2006 so there is an extensive amount of research and information poured onto here
at the top right theres a search bar, use it it will be your best friend


----------



## New_Caprica (Jan 29, 2016)

sunni said:


> matt rize no longer posts on here but he does have an instragram, however if you are an ethical vegan i highly suggest read all of matt rizes information
> along with kyle kushmans information and website
> http://kylekushman.com/
> 
> ...



Oh trust me, all i have been reading about lately is nothing but information. I haven't known anyone to grow truly vegan so it was my first time hearing about it.


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## Keighan (Mar 18, 2016)

Matt Rize said:


> In nature, plants don't feed on poop primarily. Of course animals live/poop/die in the woods, but the soil is still made mostly of decayed plant matter. I'm talking about a purist/elitist (i guess, because BioCanna is kinda pricey) form of horticulture intended for people with compromised immune systems.


Couldnt I accomplish that in correctly proportionate compost, and cover crops, and save money by paying for trash bags along with no bill for my fertz?..i mean..#fnature


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## JoeJrDied (Jun 24, 2016)

Do you guys have any book recommendations for beginners in this subject? Ideally one that isnt too heavy in the sciences because I just garden as a hobby. I am really interested in growing this way as I currently do all organic, but hey it would be fantastic to be more than just organic


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## Rrog (Jun 24, 2016)

sunni said:


> matt rize no longer posts on here


Thank god


----------



## Olive Drab Green (Jul 18, 2016)

The Earth demands blood. Shrooms told me so.


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## Olive Drab Green (Jul 18, 2016)

JoeJrDied said:


> Do you guys have any book recommendations for beginners in this subject? Ideally one that isnt too heavy in the sciences because I just garden as a hobby. I am really interested in growing this way as I currently do all organic, but hey it would be fantastic to be more than just organic


Go organic, but use blood, bone, and meat meal and bat guano like you're supposed to. That's how nature intended. You are a sack of rotting meat when you die for a reason. Do the Earth a favor and ditch veganics.

Just kidding. That's just my opinion, do what you want.


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## Jared Cox (Aug 3, 2016)

Any discussion with the word 'vegan' seems to follow a certain argument....


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## Matt Rize (Aug 15, 2016)

JoeJrDied said:


> Do you guys have any book recommendations for beginners in this subject? Ideally one that isnt too heavy in the sciences because I just garden as a hobby. I am really interested in growing this way as I currently do all organic, but hey it would be fantastic to be more than just organic


Start with "teaming with microbes" then "teaming with nutrients" good reads and generally approved of by the organic gestapo.


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## Matt Rize (Aug 15, 2016)

Thanks to everyone for answering questions, I'm learning so much from you all. Since the start of this thread I've switched from vegan indoor, to organic outdoor and greenhouse gardens.

We reuse the soil, amending and aging it between rounds. Then we grow a cover crop on the soil, and plant into the cover. We mix old soil with new bagged soils and dry amendments like neem cake and kelp. This round we are testing Sensi SCI soil.

Honest review time:
Sensi SCI : I ordered one palette, twice. Both came quickly and professional. But both were obviously under aged. The company said one was aged 45 days and the other 60 if I recall. The smell of the soil was nauseating. The plants had a hard time transplanting into a 50/50 Sensi SCI / Old soil mix at first.

But... Once the soil aged and the girls recovered from transplant shock they exploded. Then into aged soil mix beds and smart pots They are bigger, greener, and more lush than usual. So I would use it again. But next time have my priorities right and order way ahead of time. That's on me.

Pictures is a little cover cropped seed plant Starburst OG X Orange Chem we call Orange Starburst. In a 150 gallon lol

And the 20:1 CBD plants ACDC under a shade cloth.


----------



## GreenSanta (Aug 15, 2016)

how about worm shit? best fertilizer known to man kind? what if they crawl into your pure veganic compost, can you still call it veganic?

I don't grow veganically, just trying to understand where to draw the line. I might actually grow a few plants veganically for fun but I am not sure it's possible to keep poop out all together. What about insects poop? That's the direction my gardening is heading to, insect shit and worm shit... is it veganic? 

What about birds flying and pooping in your pots coze they like to hang on the bamboo stick, are you then no longer veganic.... how about really old manure, that has been digested by billions of insects, microbes and bacteria, has it become veganic? Food for thoughts... I know I will never grow without the worms, they are my best friends now.


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## GreenSanta (Aug 15, 2016)

one more question, how about you grow a forest of maple trees heavily mulch with horse manure or all kind of other manure, are you allowed to rake them leaves to use all mulch? they might have manure on them!


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## Rrog (Aug 16, 2016)

It's nuts


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## greasemonkeymann (Aug 24, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> how about worm shit? best fertilizer known to man kind? what if they crawl into your pure veganic compost, can you still call it veganic?
> 
> I don't grow veganically, just trying to understand where to draw the line. I might actually grow a few plants veganically for fun but I am not sure it's possible to keep poop out all together. What about insects poop? That's the direction my gardening is heading to, insect shit and worm shit... is it veganic?
> 
> What about birds flying and pooping in your pots coze they like to hang on the bamboo stick, are you then no longer veganic.... how about really old manure, that has been digested by billions of insects, microbes and bacteria, has it become veganic? Food for thoughts... I know I will never grow without the worms, they are my best friends now.


I think he said he switched to conventional organic growing.
the first line, he says he "switched from vegan indoor, to organic outdoor and greenhouse gardens"

i'm not the person to ask, in my opinion the whole concept of it is borderline asinine..
I mean microbes ARE animals..
because we can't SEE them makes it ok?
just reminds me of the hippy vegan girl with leather shoes and purse...sipping on her starbucks mocha-chai


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## GreenSanta (Aug 24, 2016)

there might actually be a market for veganic, I mean I sure can grow veganic if someone is willing to pay more for it, so far I can hardly get people to pay more for true organic weed... ! Again not wanting to repeat myself but even in Kyle Kushman's veganic line, I am sure lots of ingredients were grown on fields that were pooped on.


----------



## Rayne (Aug 24, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> one more question, how about you grow a forest of maple trees heavily mulch with horse manure or all kind of other manure, are you allowed to rake them leaves to use all mulch? they might have manure on them!


Veganics Defined


> Organics: are grown without the use of chemicals, an organic certification does allow farmers to use animal waste, including blood meal and bone meal, to fertilize fields. Some organic farms purchase these animal by-products from slaughterhouses and other non-organic sources. The animals have been given antibiotics and hormones throughout their lives, and exposed to pesticides and other chemicals.
> 
> Veganics: use only plant-based fertilizers, together with smart growing techniques such as alternating crops over time to build nutrients in the soil.


Seriously, the core difference between the two is the fertilizers a farmer chooses to use. If the birds and other animal wild life already living in the fields leave droppings the farmers aren't going to complain, because other beneficial insects break down the animal droppings in the fields.

Veganics as it applies to an indoor grow operation... No guano, chicken/horse/cow/lamb manure, blood meal, bone meal, feather meal, fish emulsion.

Earthworm castings are fine because most do not mistreat or slaughter earthworms. Most people just feed the worms and leave them alone to do what they do. Earthworm castings are generally in the soil already and earthworms are part of the soil food web.

BioCanna is veganic.


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## Rrog (Aug 25, 2016)

Veganics is unnatural and sucks. There


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## Og Kushman (Sep 7, 2016)

Matt Rize said:


> Some tips i've learned along the way (3 vegan runs complete):
> - feed heavy, supplementation will be needed for advanced gardeners
> - brew microbe teas, low NPK so no worries
> - feed microbes, in the brewer and in the soil.
> ...


Hell yea you have to wash you hands the stuff smells


----------



## Og Kushman (Sep 7, 2016)

stonedmetalhead1 said:


> That sounds more like human error which could have been prevented and the end product grown with manures wouldn't be contaminated so you wouldn't be putting patients at risk with the herb you are supplying them. If you take proper safety and sanitation precautions when dealing with manures you shouldn't have any problems not to mention you can get a bacterial infection from any type of organic matter.


The whole story sounds suspect to me


----------



## Og Kushman (Sep 7, 2016)

upthearsenal said:


> haha, how about you make a vid, sit back out of frame, take a huge rip, release and prove there is no cough?
> 
> i believe you can grow amazing buds like above with plant based nutrition, of course you can as long as you give them what they want/need. yet it's hard not to be skeptical when you say smoking this doesn't make you cough


I have some white widow that wont make you cough


New_Caprica said:


> Do you think I can bug you, possibly a lot when we get our growing going? We are waiting for the MM license to get processed but we are Vegan so this really did interest me. Also, I am a fan of as natural as possible.


IF you want a product that works that is vegan General Hydroponics Biothrive works great.


----------



## subcoolgrower (Sep 18, 2016)

Over 100,00 people use this recipe including many soil companies it works simple we pull 2 pounds a light for the last 15 year but it certainly isn't the only way to grow dank.

Sub

PS think I'd break my back if it didn;t work


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## GroDank101 (Apr 18, 2017)

greetings, i have put together my own soil mix for the first time using 60% peat moss, 25% worm castings, 15% coco coir base soil, with neem seed, kelp, alfalfa meal, azomite, garden lime, and 6 Down To Earth all natural amendments: vegan mix, acid mix, all-purpose mix, bio-live, bio-fish, and soybean meal but i was wanting to get some suggestions on how i could modify my mix to be improved, if anyone can make any suggestions how i can improve please give me some truth. i've been reading @subcoolgrower all your stuff and even been watching the Round Table on youtube, and i love the community its just that im new to growing. im just a beginner but hey we all gotta start somewhere. Attached is a Dinafem Cheese cbd that is in this soil i mixed to give an idea how it is performing so far: slight nute burn on some tips but not too bad, so am I on the right track?


----------



## DonTesla (Apr 19, 2017)

GroDank101 said:


> greetings, i have put together my own soil mix for the first time using 60% peat moss, 25% worm castings, 15% coco coir base soil, with neem seed, kelp, alfalfa meal, azomite, garden lime, and 6 Down To Earth all natural amendments: vegan mix, acid mix, all-purpose mix, bio-live, bio-fish, and soybean meal but i was wanting to get some suggestions on how i could modify my mix to be improved, if anyone can make any suggestions how i can improve please give me some truth. i've been reading @subcoolgrower all your stuff and even been watching the Round Table on youtube, and i love the community its just that im new to growing. im just a beginner but hey we all gotta start somewhere. Attached is a Dinafem Cheese cbd that is in this soil i mixed to give an idea how it is performing so far: slight nute burn on some tips but not too bad, so am I on the right track?


Definitely on the right track @GroDank101.. First off, congrats just for being in the right jungle! 

How you geared in terms of aeration?
What percentage would you _consider_ aeration?

A volcanic element would be nice but not many are running so clean so quick so pat yourself on the back..

If you don't mind vacuuming a bit of soil here and there, i'd make your own compost pile outside if you can? and worm bin under a sink, without delay.. Easy peasy my friend.. feed them a hi quality vegetarian diet. With high quality artisan crafted castings you could cut it down to as low as 15% from 25 / 33 and see improvement in all areas.. and not need the acid mix or soybean meal, or any mixes from DTE. . .all while boosting _microbial_ and worm populations, and therefore soil aeration and texture 

That said, Leaf mould and or a nice thermophillic woodchip compost would bump yields and _fungal_ populations.. Or rotting wood chunks as they're called would be great if can find an old tree. To round out that beautiful beneficial bacterial web
(Simple brewed teas with some oat fed soil will suffice til then..)

Of course as you may know, myco fungi at transplants for yield yet and to witness a symbiotic relationship where the plant trades 5% sugars from photosynthesis for a 45% increase in water and nutrient supply due to extend reach .. Essentially limiting droughts, equating to a nice little yield % bump too, but you're prob on that..

I could go on about peak performance / high brix / mineral ratios or foliars for different effects or enviro and bio controls.. but this is the foundation to making great soil.. Which can account for a massive amount of gene expression and therefore is the foundation to making great herb as well


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## DonTesla (Apr 21, 2017)

Rrog said:


> Veganics is unnatural and sucks. There


It "sucks" @Rrog ? Can you expand or elaborate please?


----------



## Roger A. Shrubber (Apr 21, 2017)

i didn't know this thread existed till a few minutes ago. 
i used veganics for 2 years. the only real complaint i have about it is the price. i got good results with it, but it costs me about 300 a year for my small set up, flowering 4 plants at a time.
i've since switched to Jack's, 20-20-20 during veg and 10-30-20 blossom booster during flower. that, along with a bag of epsom salt and a bag of calcium nitrate, cost me less than 100 a year, i get the same results, and have less stuff to mix.


----------



## DonTesla (Apr 22, 2017)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> i didn't know this thread existed till a few minutes ago.
> i used veganics for 2 years. the only real complaint i have about it is the price. i got good results with it, but it costs me about 300 a year for my small set up, flowering 4 plants at a time.
> i've since switched to Jack's, 20-20-20 during veg and 10-30-20 blossom booster during flower. that, along with a bag of epsom salt and a bag of calcium nitrate, cost me less than 100 a year, i get the same results, and have less stuff to mix.


$25 a month was too much to produce your own top shelf, seems like a great price! What produce/products did you use. How was the quality, not higher?


----------



## Roger A. Shrubber (Apr 23, 2017)

i bought a bag of southern ag calcium nitrate, some Jacks 20-20-20 classic for veg, Jack's bloom booster for flower, some epsom salts, and a bag of sul-po-mag (pretty much epsom salts with added K) mondays veg plants get calcium nitrate and a little jacks 20-20-20, thursdays they get a little epsom salts and a little jacks's. flower is jack's BB with a little sul-po-mag every other time. i haven't had a big problem with cal def, but if i do i have a foliar product i use on my tomatoes that works just as good on weed.
i won't say its any better than it was using veganics, but its certainly not any worse, at 1/3 the price. and not like it was a huge chore, but measuring shit out of 7 bottles every other day is kind of a pain in the ass, now its a scoop of this, a scoop of that, and i'm done


----------



## Roger A. Shrubber (Apr 23, 2017)

you know, that reminded me, the actual biggest pain in the ass about veganics is their bottle design, i would end up with shit everywhere, and if you shake the stuff up with the cap on, then pour it and replace the cap, it'll ooze out and run down the side of the bottle. the cabinet where i kept it is stained all to hell. and they're too deep to get at the shit in the bottom without just pouring it out, none of my droppers or syringes i use for measuring will reach after they're half empty
 see whut i mean, Vern?


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## DonTesla (Apr 26, 2017)

I'm gonna be doing a bottle free veganic run, I was never impressed with the facade of messy bottles either.  there's definetly a better way


----------



## Rrog (Apr 26, 2017)

Pretty bottles. Looks very natural


----------



## Roger A. Shrubber (Apr 26, 2017)

i like the design on the label...


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## Rrog (Apr 26, 2017)

Good point. Maybe bottles are great and we should all abandon soil. 

I love the commercialization of things that really require no commercialization.


----------



## Roger A. Shrubber (Apr 26, 2017)

did you read back a few posts? you seems to be giving me shit for the wrong thing.....


----------



## dankesthours182 (May 25, 2017)

Rising Moon said:


> Bump...
> 
> Amazes me after being gone from this forum for more than 6 months, this thread still argues about the same old shit....
> 
> Build your soil with herbs, flowers and plant meals, leave the bottles for the kids. Time to move into real farming folks...


I agree but I'm having trouble finding recipes, everyone says a little of this a little of that, but it seems far less common to post a recipe. 

Instead of a five year thread arguing about two or three large companies' questionable nutrient systems, why not talk about personalizing and mix/matching existing nutrient and soil builds, and hydro nutrient teas and etc. I personally am dying to do an organic dwc


----------



## dankesthours182 (May 25, 2017)

Matt Rize said:


> and back to PLANT BASED ORGANICS
> 
> Lost along the way:
> Opinion's on humboldt nutes natural flower 0-10-0? plant based organics i believe...
> ...


I think I'm gonna go with bio canna for my dwc, will it be able to be brewed out and bubbled?


----------



## sunni (May 25, 2017)

dankesthours182 said:


> I agree but I'm having trouble finding recipes, everyone says a little of this a little of that, but it seems far less common to post a recipe.
> 
> Instead of a five year thread arguing about two or three large companies' questionable nutrient systems, why not talk about personalizing and mix/matching existing nutrient and soil builds, and hydro nutrient teas and etc. I personally am dying to do an organic dwc


Use the search. Button your last post is a completely disrespectful and rude including rule breaking


----------



## dankesthours182 (May 26, 2017)

i apologize, i thought i had a valid point my bad, i'm trying to delete this post, having trouble, will get it, thanks, again,,

apologies


----------



## sunni (May 26, 2017)

dankesthours182 said:


> i apologize, i thought i had a valid point my bad, i'm trying to delete this post, having trouble, will get it, thanks, again,,
> 
> apologies


No problem


----------



## dankesthours182 (May 26, 2017)

sunni said:


> No problem


'preciate it, still csant edit, but i think i see you did, thanks again.

dank


----------



## Obepawn (Aug 17, 2019)

Nullis said:


> I have personally seen trichoderma on perlite (green perlite). Granted it isn't being broken down, but that is not its purpose. It is only there because it is porous and holds water. It is also perfectly natural, as far as I am concerned. Really it is just natural glass that has been further heated to more extreme temperatures so that it expands.
> 
> As far as your fecal ramblings go... No manures sourced from any omnivore would be organic anyways. Only from strict herbivores. Animals such as cows for instance, or chickens; they have plant based diets, is their manure not itself plant based? Beyond that manures are typically composted specially, or pasteurized which would kill any pathogens.
> Ultimately, the majority of most natural (organic, vegan, whatever) fertilizer ends up being the result of another organisms excrement. Bat guano from bats, vermicompost/worm castings from earthworms (which have gizzards), kitchen compost from a great plethora of insect, bacterial, fungal, etc decomposers.
> ...


Chickens are not straight herbivores. They eat a shit tone of insects and anything small enough to unfortunately crawl into their space. I’ve seen it a thousand times with my Grandmother’s chickens.


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## Fakir710 (Nov 10, 2020)

Hey RIU, whats up? This is the result after 14 weeks on a Western Winds x Queen Mother using Bio Canna, Hummus, Compost and Humic acid, no pHd and no PPMd. 80litre pot outdoors! Plant had a lot of stress, but anyway the result looks pretty decent!


Edit* Sorry i didnt noticed that the thread was dead, i bumped it. :/


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## Wolverine97 (Nov 10, 2020)

That's gonna be one gnarly mother fucker to trim, but looks like some flighty sativa. Not familiar with the strains.
Looks like the borg got ya there at the end, eh?


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## maranibbana (Nov 10, 2020)

I mean... keep it bumped lets see if Matt comes around  hahah


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