# What's the Best Ph Up and Down to Use?



## green as grass (Sep 17, 2010)

I currently run Mad Farmer up and down with the whole line of H&G aqua flakes.
Whats the BEST?


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## bowlfullofbliss (Sep 17, 2010)

I personally use General Hydroponics brand. Plants have no issue with it at all. I have very hard water, and use a lot of it, no problem.


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## StonedBlownSkiller (Sep 17, 2010)

bowlfullofbliss said:


> I personally use General Hydroponics brand. Plants have no issue with it at all. I have very hard water, and use a lot of it, no problem.


 I agree,,,GH is good,,,trusted for years.


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## green as grass (Sep 17, 2010)

Thats what i was using and then of course the swifty lil hydro store guy talked me into no dyes and shit blah blah blah. cool just wanted feed back. 
Also is it ok to use in soil? I have another test run with H&G soil line up with all suppliments


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## StonedBlownSkiller (Sep 17, 2010)

Fuck that...General Hydroponics is a great product. Cheap and has excellent results. The guys trying to sell new products...Works fine in soil. GH comes with directions for soil and hydro on every package.


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## green as grass (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks bro. I'm sick of these fuckers lying and trying to pump out products that aren't compatible like chem nutes and great white. Like really bud... 
sell sell sell!!!!!!!!


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## GreenThumbSucker (Sep 18, 2010)

green as grass said:


> I currently run Mad Farmer up and down with the whole line of H&G aqua flakes.
> Whats the BEST?


GH PH DOWN is made from phosphoric acid, which makes your reservoir pump and hoses slimy, especially during flowering. When the phosphoric acid hits the P saturated solution, a plume of phosphorus hits the water and the solution cant hold it all, some of it changes form to a solid and it becomes slime that sticks to everything it touches. I use sulfuric acid and I get no slime at all, all I have to do is rinse out my system once a week, almost no scrubbing at all.

You can get sulfuric acid at any auto parts store, just ask for battery acid. Cost is anywhere from $3.99 - $5.99 per liter, very cheap. You have to ask for it, they keep it behind the counter. Wear rubber gloves and goggles while handling it. For weaker strength, use 1/3 of a cup per gallon. For normal strength use about a half cup per gallon. Make sure you use RO water or distilled water. You dont want the chlorine from your tap water interacting with the sulfuric acid. A $3.99 container of battery acid will make about 8 or 10 gallons of PH Down.

For PH UP use 100% pure lye. One level tablespoon makes a gallon, which lasts years. Lifetime supply for under 5$.

Read the ingredients on the lye to make sure it is PURE sodium hydroxide or pure Lye in crystal form. To make the PH UP, fill a gallon container 3/4 with RO or distilled water and drop one tablespoon of lye crystals in, then top off with the rest of the water. Wear rubber gloves and goggles. I will never ever have to pay 25$ per gallon for UP or DOWN again!!!

Get it online cheap:

http://www.amazon.com/Sodium-Hydroxide-Caustic-Cleaner-Making/dp/B0032LVYXQ/ref=pd_sxp_grid_i_1_0

or get it at the hardware store:



Just make sure it is pure lye or pure sodium hydroxide
Hope this helps.


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## gudkarma (Sep 18, 2010)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> GH PH DOWN is made from phosphoric acid, which makes your reservoir pump and hoses slimy, especially during flowering. When the phosphoric acid hits the P saturated solution, a plume of phosphorus hits the water and the solution cant hold it all, some of it changes form to a solid and it becomes slime that sticks to everything it touches. I use sulfuric acid and I get no slime at all, all I have to do is rinse out my system once a week, almost no scrubbing at all.
> 
> You can get sulfuric acid at any auto parts store, just ask for battery acid. Cost is anywhere from $3.99 - $5.99 per liter, very cheap. You have to ask for it, they keep it behind the counter. Wear rubber gloves and goggles while handling it. For weaker strength, use 1/3 of a cup per gallon. For normal strength use about a half cup per gallon. Make sure you use RO water or distilled water. You dont want the chlorine from your tap water interacting with the sulfuric acid. A $3.99 container of battery acid will make about 8 or 10 gallons of PH Down.
> 
> ...


 
school is in session.

dont know about most of you, but i'll be taking the big bus.
short one is for the herbal 'tards.

i hope ya'll just learned somthing... i know i did.


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## Dirty Harry (Sep 18, 2010)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> ... I use sulfuric acid and I get no slime at all, all I have to do is rinse out my system once a week, almost no scrubbing at all.
> 
> You can get sulfuric acid at any auto parts store, just ask for battery acid. Cost is anywhere from $3.99 - $5.99 per liter, very cheap.


I have been using sulfuric acid for PH down for my last two grows. After spending $10 on a small bottle of fish PH down I see it contained sulfuric acid. Didn't take much for me to figure out the cheap way was the auto shop.


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## gudkarma (Sep 18, 2010)

adding to this...

i just checked ebay &, if you can't get the sulfuric or lye in your area, you can buy it online.

i bought a soluable powdered humic acid from a guy on ebay after seeing AN grandma enngy (whatever its called) is nothing but.
i have a lifetime supply of liquid concentrate for $15. AN sells one quart for x2 as much.


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## DragonKlutch (Sep 18, 2010)

I have a question in regards to using vinegar, I started to use it and it seems to stabilize my PH for a much longer time frame then what I was using. I use a sodium based crystal, for pools and spas, the only two ingredients are sodium sulphate and sodium bisulphate. We have a pool so I just use it to lower my PH; just ½ tsp per 5 gallons brings my water right to 6. You can purchase a 4 lb jar of it for 4 bucks at this time of the year. 

So what about vinegar good or bad to use?


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## 420n00b (Sep 18, 2010)

I was wondering why I had that bit of slime while using the GH PH Down. Think I'll go with the lye and battery acid next time. Always nice to learn something.


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## green as grass (Sep 18, 2010)

man battery acid! holy smokes. you dont have any issues with it? im so down to try.


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## kevin (Sep 18, 2010)

green as grass said:


> I currently run Mad Farmer up and down with the whole line of H&G aqua flakes.
> Whats the BEST?


i can't tell you what's the best, but i can tell you that i have used general hydroponics for the last 3 years without a problem.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Sep 19, 2010)

green as grass said:


> man battery acid! holy smokes. you dont have any issues with it? im so down to try.


No issues at all. Battery acid is pure sulfuric acid mixed with a little pure water. Just be very careful handling it. It is best to use it up all at once and make several gallons then toss the container that it came in.

Vinegar also works well, but I have always found that it wears off quick.

With the lye make sure that Lye is the only ingredient (100% lye, 99.9% lye, or 100% sodium hydroxide) and that it is in crystal form.


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## Dirty Harry (Sep 19, 2010)

green as grass said:


> man battery acid! holy smokes. you dont have any issues with it? im so down to try.


Well, people use it in their fresh and salt water fish tanks. In salt water tanks the coral, fish, and other animals are NOT CHEAP.
When used correctly, all that lives in the water adjusted with it just fine.
I figure if it is safe for expensive fish, it should be safe for plants...when used correctly.


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## UrbanAerO (Sep 19, 2010)

green as grass said:


> I currently run Mad Farmer up and down with the whole line of H&G aqua flakes.
> Whats the BEST?


 This is what I use also, but its best not to add any PH. After I mix everything and PH is say 4.5 close to my target 5.8, I will add some more protekt silica and PH with that, but if I have to add too much( more than 2.5ml/gal) silica I will use the mad farmers PH(great product)


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## dudeoflife (Sep 20, 2010)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> GH PH DOWN is made from phosphoric acid, which makes your reservoir pump and hoses slimy, especially during flowering. When the phosphoric acid hits the P saturated solution, a plume of phosphorus hits the water and the solution cant hold it all, some of it changes form to a solid and it becomes slime that sticks to everything it touches. I use sulfuric acid and I get no slime at all, all I have to do is rinse out my system once a week, almost no scrubbing at all.
> 
> You can get sulfuric acid at any auto parts store, just ask for battery acid. Cost is anywhere from $3.99 - $5.99 per liter, very cheap. You have to ask for it, they keep it behind the counter. Wear rubber gloves and goggles while handling it. For weaker strength, use 1/3 of a cup per gallon. For normal strength use about a half cup per gallon. Make sure you use RO water or distilled water. You dont want the chlorine from your tap water interacting with the sulfuric acid. A $3.99 container of battery acid will make about 8 or 10 gallons of PH Down.
> 
> ...


Excellent Post!

I would also like to add a few things about the GH Down-

I am looking at the ingredients of the Dry Concentrate, which are:

Ammonium Sulfate, Citric Acid, and Urea Phosphate.

The slime you can get in your rez from the concentrate could be from the urea contained in that product. 

Urea does basically nothing in hydro. The nitrification process, the process of turning urea into a usable source of N requires, ideally, soil and nickel (N). It just sits and sometimes flocculates in hydro.

So the slime can be attributed to the source of the phosphorus, rather than the phosphorus. The urea. 

Which is yucky to add into any medium to begin with. 

As far as using sulphuric acid--

100%. MJ plants, most plants, have a high tolerance to S, 150-200ish ppm, and most plants use very little of it. So it'll hang around for a while and keep the ph steady. It is an excellent micro to boost, and an excellent placeholder element-- meaning a good & cheap way to boost your ppm if needed, with no ill effects. edit-- IN HYDRO ONLY!!!


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## dudeoflife (Sep 20, 2010)

Also -- in defense of GH Down, dry formula, 

On the flipside, the urea in said product seems to agree with hard water. Still have to research that one. Notice how on the GH Flora Hardwater Micro bottle, that it also contains urea as a source of N. Go figure. Coincidence?

So maybe the GH Down doesn't agree with R.O. water. A possibility...


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## green as grass (Sep 21, 2010)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> No issues at all. Battery acid is pure sulfuric acid mixed with a little pure water. Just be very careful handling it. It is best to use it up all at once and make several gallons then toss the container that it came in.
> 
> Vinegar also works well, but I have always found that it wears off quick.
> 
> With the lye make sure that Lye is the only ingredient (100% lye, 99.9% lye, or 100% sodium hydroxide) and that it is in crystal form.


wow! thanks for the new found knowledge i jus gained.


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## green as grass (Sep 21, 2010)

Dirty Harry said:


> Well, people use it in their fresh and salt water fish tanks. In salt water tanks the coral, fish, and other animals are NOT CHEAP.
> When used correctly, all that lives in the water adjusted with it just fine.
> I figure if it is safe for expensive fish, it should be safe for plants...when used correctly.


never knew that either.. crazy the shit i learn on here. i love it


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## green as grass (Sep 21, 2010)

UrbanAerO said:


> This is what I use also, but its best not to add any PH. After I mix everything and PH is say 4.5 close to my target 5.8, I will add some more protekt silica and PH with that, but if I have to add too much( more than 2.5ml/gal) silica I will use the mad farmers PH(great product)


good to know thank you. i figured i could use silica to raise ph as long as i dont over do recommended dosage


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## dudeoflife (Sep 25, 2010)

Here's another one: Citric Acid Powder. Another excellent and inexpensive solution for lowering your ph, and probably the safest.


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## Johan (Sep 27, 2010)

dont go digital, stick the basic powder, the color doesnt lie to you, but if your digital meter fucks up some how, now what? always go with powder ph testers.


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## UrbanAerO (Sep 27, 2010)

green as grass said:


> good to know thank you. i figured i could use silica to raise ph as long as i dont over do recommended dosage


I stopped using PH all together and just ph up with silica, I sometimes add twice the recomended silica in my schedule with no ill side effects. When the ph reaches 7.0(around 2 days) I just changed the nutrients all together, because at this point its almost empty. also note I use 10gallons of nutes for 40 plants. The phosphorus was most of the gunk buildup in my system.


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## green as grass (Oct 4, 2010)

UrbanAerO said:


> I stopped using PH all together and just ph up with silica, I sometimes add twice the recomended silica in my schedule with no ill side effects. When the ph reaches 7.0(around 2 days) I just changed the nutrients all together, because at this point its almost empty. also note I use 10gallons of nutes for 40 plants. The phosphorus was most of the gunk buildup in my system.


holy smokes 10 gallons of nutrients wheeeew! you know what i noticed the other day when i mixed up some nutrients with the silicate.
i always add my silicate first per hydro store guy, then H&G A wait ten minutes, then added B then mixed, as i mixed the solution went from clear to cloudy.
Now i knew this was bad and when chemicals start precipitating, so i threw out n started over.

i also did something new and that was filling up rez 2/3rd's full and did A&B nutrients like the chart says for H&G except for this time i think the pro tekt silicate raised the water to high of ph and chemically the A&B didn't mix properly in smaller amount of water.
When i did my next batch the exact same way except this time adding to a full rez instead of 2/3rd full. Didn't get any cloudy reaction this time. so had to be too high of ph that did it.


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## wiseguy316 (Oct 4, 2010)

One thing that has not been touched on yet. Sulfuric Acid from the auto parts store is not of food grade quaility. Yes it will work. I would not make hash or anything edible with it. And would only use it if I was selling it all and not smoking any of it.


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## green as grass (Oct 4, 2010)

wiseguy316 said:


> One thing that has not been touched on yet. Sulfuric Acid from the auto parts store is not of food grade quaility. Yes it will work. I would not make hash or anything edible with it. And would only use it if I was selling it all and not smoking any of it.


that is what i was thinking also. acid from a battery couldnt be good..


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## wiseguy316 (Oct 4, 2010)

Lot's of things work, however GH and most ph products state they are of food grade quality. PH down is cheap last gal I bought was 20 bucks from dchydro, and I still have 3/4 of it left from 2 yrs ago. Baking soda works for ph up, but i just add water if i need up. My water is about 8. Add's water back in for what they have used.


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## 420forme (Oct 4, 2010)

Yeah, don't tell your patients that you use lye and battery acid to grow their meds. It just doesn't sound good.


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## masonite420 (Jan 25, 2011)

green as grass said:


> I currently run Mad Farmer up and down with the whole line of H&G aqua flakes.
> Whats the BEST?


 Mad Farmers up and down are $3 cheaper than GHs and contain no dyes. Dyes are harmful to rootsSounds like the guy at the shop was trying to help you out and save you some money. If you wanna go naturaluse silica blast for up and Mad Farmer N.U.T.S., which is a fulvic acid, for down. 
Peace and good luck


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 25, 2011)

I use advanced nute line of up and down never had a problem in soil or hydro


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## masonite420 (Jan 25, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> I use advanced nute line of up and down never had a problem in soil or hydro


 Advanced up and down are very concentrated which is actually not good....this can kill a lot of your biological nutes...such as nirvana or Roots Excelurator.....Peace and good luck


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## Sr. Greensea (Jan 25, 2011)

taking notes on the big bus
no short bus sugar carb herbal tard for me


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## masonite420 (Feb 1, 2011)

Sr. Greensea said:


> taking notes on the big bus
> no short bus sugar carb herbal tard for me


 House & Garden doesn't have any products which are sugar or carb based...which bus are you on?


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## choempi (Mar 29, 2011)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> GH PH DOWN is made from phosphoric acid, which makes your reservoir pump and hoses slimy, especially during flowering. When the phosphoric acid hits the P saturated solution, a plume of phosphorus hits the water and the solution cant hold it all, some of it changes form to a solid and it becomes slime that sticks to everything it touches. I use sulfuric acid and I get no slime at all, all I have to do is rinse out my system once a week, almost no scrubbing at all.
> 
> You can get sulfuric acid at any auto parts store, just ask for battery acid. Cost is anywhere from $3.99 - $5.99 per liter, very cheap. You have to ask for it, they keep it behind the counter. Wear rubber gloves and goggles while handling it. For weaker strength, use 1/3 of a cup per gallon. For normal strength use about a half cup per gallon. Make sure you use RO water or distilled water._* You dont want the chlorine from your tap water interacting with the sulfuric acid*_. A $3.99 container of battery acid will make about 8 or 10 gallons of PH Down.
> 
> ...


 
I know this an old thread but if someone can explain what the interaction between the chlorine and the sulfuric acid is exactly. I use bleach in my hydro and want to use this as a ph down.


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 29, 2011)

masonite420 said:


> Advanced up and down are very concentrated which is actually not good....this can kill a lot of your biological nutes...such as nirvana or Roots Excelurator.....Peace and good luck


thats why to dalute it  and 25 buck in up will last me over a year!!


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## Truth B Known (Mar 29, 2011)

i use gen hydro ph down.. a lot of people do, but def interested in earth juice.. there are people that use vinegar and citric acid as well.. haven't done enough trial and error to tell you what is best exactly, but i'm curious!


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## choempi (Mar 29, 2011)

ok, how bout the sulfuric acid and the bleach?


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## Ferredoxin (Mar 30, 2011)

Sulfuric acid is dangerous. If you add water to it, instead of adding it to water, it can potentially explode. Fortunately, battery acid is only about 26% H2SO4. I used to work with reagent grade H2SO4, and I had to use a special vented hood with water filters to remove all the toxic fumes.

As far as the interaction with bleach (sodium hypochlorite)........it will produce chlorine gas in acid solutions, which is very toxic. 30 ppm causes coughing and vomiting, 60 ppm will damage your lungs, and 1000 ppm is fatal. Make sure you have no bleach in your rez when you add it!


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## choempi (Mar 30, 2011)

Ferredoxin said:


> Sulfuric acid is dangerous. If you add water to it, instead of adding it to water, it can potentially explode. Fortunately, battery acid is only about 26% H2SO4. I used to work with reagent grade H2SO4, and I had to use a special vented hood with water filters to remove all the toxic fumes.
> 
> As far as the interaction with bleach (sodium hypochlorite)........it will produce chlorine gas in acid solutions, which is very toxic. 30 ppm causes coughing and vomiting, 60 ppm will damage your lungs, and 1000 ppm is fatal. Make sure you have no bleach in your rez when you add it!


I know how to add it to the distilled, but good point.

My res is only about 12 gal and I run about 3ppm bleach. Surely that will not interact in a dangerous way by your #s?


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## Redoctober (Mar 30, 2011)

> GH PH DOWN is made from phosphoric acid, which makes your reservoir pump and hoses slimy, especially during flowering. When the phosphoric acid hits the P saturated solution, a plume of phosphorus hits the water and the solution cant hold it all, some of it changes form to a solid and it becomes slime that sticks to everything it touches. I use sulfuric acid and I get no slime at all, all I have to do is rinse out my system once a week, almost no scrubbing at all.
> 
> You can get sulfuric acid at any auto parts store, just ask for battery acid. Cost is anywhere from $3.99 - $5.99 per liter, very cheap. You have to ask for it, they keep it behind the counter. Wear rubber gloves and goggles while handling it. For weaker strength, use 1/3 of a cup per gallon. For normal strength use about a half cup per gallon. Make sure you use RO water or distilled water. You dont want the chlorine from your tap water interacting with the sulfuric acid. A $3.99 container of battery acid will make about 8 or 10 gallons of PH Down.


Interesting! I found that my rez and tubes had a bit of a slimy feel to them and thought it might be some kind of fungal infiltration or bacteria, but I guess it's just the pH down. I recently asked for battery acid in Auto Zone and boy did I get an evil stare. So some have mentioned that using sulfuric acid could pose a potential health hazard from smoking or ingesting buds grown in water adjusted with H2SO4; I'm not sure why this would be the case? Does anyone have any good scientific evidence one way or the other? 

My chemistry may be a bit rusty but I believe it would dissociate into a sulfate ion HSO4- and a hydronium ion H3O+. Hydronium ions are extremely reactive and will protonate most things they come into contact with. H+ ions are wht make solutions acidic, so a hydronium ion can easily release a proton into most solutions which will raise its acidity. This is basically the same mechanism of action as most acids. This leaves the HSO4- anion. Whether or not this would have any affect on health I don't know. The acid is being used in such minute quantities to adjust the pH of the water, and who knows whether it it is even being taken up by the plant's root system. I doubt that it would really have a deleterious affect on plants or human health at these levels, but I may be wrong. We need a real chemist to step in here. I could potentially see something like hydrochloric acid not being the greatest thing for your plants due to its dissociation into Chlorine anions (similar to bleach); chlorine is not the greatest for plants and roots.


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## Murfy (May 3, 2011)

ok-

so what is the difference with phosphoric acid?


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## Canna Khaleesi (Jul 12, 2012)

Mad Farmer Get Up & Get Down (pH Up & Down) are some of the best (& cheapest) pH up and down products available. I have been using them for years... WHY?
1. There are 3 pH buffers in each - In the pH down there is citric acid, phosphoric acid, and ammonium sulfate. In the pH up there is potassium carbonate, potassium silicate, and potassium hydroxide. Many pH adjusters only contain 1-2 buffers, which leads to crazy fluctuation of the nutrient solution. The 3 buffers make the Mad Farmer pH up and down very stable and I don't see much fluctuation in levels. 
2. There are no dyes of food colorings in the Mad Farmer pH up & down! This is actually important to me, as I don't like putting food coloring in my food, why put it in my plants?! GH adds orange and blue dye to their up and down. The dye doesn't add any benefits, its just to differentiate which one is which! I figure, if you can read a label, you don't need the dyes!!
3. MF is super concentrated! I usually only have to use a couple drops or so in a 60 gal res., so it lasts forever!
4. Its cheap! 

All the Mad Farmer products are super clean and work really well. Has any one tried any of their other products? They are one of my favorite lines of supplements. 
http://madfarmerproducts.com/


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## BUdbuddysmile (Jul 14, 2012)

I have used GH and Advanced Nutrients Ph up and Down. I recommend using GH if you have a small res.. like 10 gallons or under. Advanced is super concentrated and thats why its more expensive. It can be hard to use because a very small amount goes a long way. Its awesome for 20+ gal res. In 5 gallons, litterally a drop of AN will change your pH by .1 Its at least 10x more concentrated that GH. However, in my easy cloner, GH can be easy to manage because its more diluted.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jul 14, 2012)

Update: For PH UP I now use food grade POTASSIUM hydroxide which is potassium based lye. Potassium hydroxide is also a hydroponic fertilizer and it is an excellent blossom booster.

You can get it here CHEAP!! http://www.essentialdepot.com/servlet/the-Potassium-dsh-Hydroxide-dsh-KOH-dsh-Potash/Categories

I bought 4 pounds of it for 12$ and it should last me at least a few years. A tablespoon makes a gallon. A bit more if you have a large reservoir, a bit less if you have a small reservoir.

As far as people being intimidated by battery acid, it is what they use in commercial hydroponic greenhouses for PH down in food production. Phosphoric acid will not work as an electrolyte if it contains impurities. Battery acid is RO water with 100% pure phosphoric acid.


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## Clown Baby (Jul 14, 2012)

They all do pretty much the same thing: adjust pH.

If you want to get fancy, use nitric acid based adjusters in veg, and phosphorus based pH adjusters in flower.


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## SamsonsRiddle (Oct 27, 2015)

sorry to revive old thread - but be careful buying lye. It's used to make biker crank and many stores are aware and will report anyone who buys it. You may not be making crank, but you may get an unwanted eye.


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## Dumme (Oct 27, 2015)

bowlfullofbliss said:


> I personally use General Hydroponics brand. Plants have no issue with it at all. I have very hard water, and use a lot of it, no problem.


I heard "Scotts" bought out GH. So, ....It's gonna be a Lowes product soon?!? If so, I wouldn't use them on principal.


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## churchhaze (Oct 27, 2015)

10% nitric acid and potassium hydroxide flakes.


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