# Mandala Seeds Kalichakra and Satori



## babygro (May 14, 2007)

Mandala Seeds Kalichakra and Satori

Just about to start my next grow and thought I'd share this one with Rollitup.

My last grow, some Sensi Star clones, which I've just jarred up went fairly smoothly mainly because I built on the experience from my previous grow of a Sensi Star from seed. I had an annoying Magnesium deficiency plague that grow mostly due to my hard tap water not working particularly well with Biobizz's Allmix soil. I still used Allmix for the clones but added a little dolomite lime that helped to buffer the soil ph and add some Mg in at the same time. I also foliar fed and root fed fairly regular doseages of epsom salts through the clone grow to help keep that Mg def problem in check. If anything I slightly overfed them despite using well below recommended doseages of nutrients.

I'm not using Allmix for this grow as I still don't think it's worth the high price and I've heard of others suffering from similar Mg deficiency problems and the solution for those problems makes Allmix not worth paying for or bothering with if there are equally bad or better alternatives at a 1/4 of the price available locally. I still think that Allmix 'could' be a good soil for other people in different water areas growing not quite so nutrient fickle a plant as Sensi Star.

So this grow I'm switching from Allmix to one of the Westland Multi-Purpose composts with added dolomite lime and probably calcified seaweed and some rockdust if I can get hold of some at a reasonable price. The next grow after this one I'd like to experiment with some of my own home made compost mixtures but at the moment don't feel experienced enough to do so and also because I'm curious to see what was causing the Mg problem - my tap water or the Allmix soil. If I get the same kind of problems with this next grow, I may invest in a small RO water purifier to help take out some of the hard water dissolved solids.

I'm using up the last of the Allmix mixed up with some standard John Innes no2 at a ratio of 40:40 with 10% Perlite and 10% Vermiculite to get the new seeds germinated and under way in 1L pots. I used a slightly different germination method this time, last time I soaked for 24 hours in tepid water then used the tissue and tupperware container method to produce a taproot which I then transferred into pots. Last time I got 100% germination and 100% survival rate using this method. This time I decided to germinate the seeds in the soil rather than germinating first then planting. 

So far 4/4 Kalichakra have surfaced and 3/4 Satori, with one Satori being a little reluctant to come out and play. In the photo's the Kalichakra are all on the back row and all the Satori on the front row. They're about 4 or 5 days from breaking the soil surface in these pictures.


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## babygro (May 14, 2007)

A few more pictures..


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## babygro (May 14, 2007)

Finally the fourth Satori popped the soil surface on the 13th. 

The other plants are now about 7 days from popping and are just starting their second set of true leaves. 

A few more pics showing the fourth Satori...


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## nongreenthumb (May 14, 2007)

Did you know that if you cut all the leaves off and the top now, like 20 will totally grow back in its place dude.

I saw this page earlier and went to something else, then i couldnt find it again so i searched under threads started by you, this has got to be a first. It is a first


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## nongreenthumb (May 14, 2007)

Nice strains tho, i've got a few kerala krush seedlings going at the moment, its got similar sativa effects, maybe have to do a lil swap of some sort


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## babygro (May 14, 2007)

nongreenthumb said:


> I saw this page earlier and went to something else, then i couldnt find it again so i searched under threads started by you, this has got to be a first. It is a first


Heya NGT, thanks for stopping by dude. It's a first for me to put up a grow diary on Rollitup, for sure, thought it was about time I did one though.

I'm really looking forward to growing out these genetics, they're a lot closer to landrace than most of the current dutch genetics and I want to experiment with the use of some HPS and MH lights in flowering this time, probably HPS for the first 4 weeks of flowering and MH for the final 4 weeks or so.


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## skunkushybrid (May 14, 2007)

I've never heard of these strains before can't wait to find out more about them.


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## babygro (May 15, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> I've never heard of these strains before can't wait to find out more about them.


Heya Skunky, thanks for dropping in.

I'm trying to move away from the 'sanitised' over-bred Dutch genetics that all have far too much Indica bred into them to stabilise and bulk up their yield for growing under artificial lights. Kalichakra and Satori are bred by Mike from Mandala seeds who grows them all outdoors in spain and sources his genetics from landrace varieties. 

Kalichakra has genetics from South India, SE Asia - it's a cross between Sativas from Kerala in South India, a Sativa Thai from Asia and I also believe it has some Columbian and Mexican in it as well as the obligatory touch of Indica for yield. Satori is based on several Sativa strains from Nepal as well as a touch of Indica.

Here's the breeder descriptions of them -

Satori 

Type: sativa-indica
Contains land race genetics from: Nepal
Cultivation: indoor/outdoor
Flowering time: 65-70 days/October
Yield: 550-600 gr/m2 (dry weight)
High: a clear, cerebral high and strong potency sets in quickly; it supports concentration & creativity; very inspiring and stimulating. Ideal for writers, artists, musicians, or other creative people.
Aroma: fruity-citrus, pungent.
Medical Use: Satori shows her therapeutic potential in relieving depression and anxiety; this strain can ease sleep disorders from auto-immune diseases and Restless Legs Syndrome (RLS).

This season we are introducing our new Satori. We have refined this strain genetically to produce an even more reliable and powerful cross that will delight your connoisseur heart. Satori is an exceptionally easy to grow sativa. She has shown impressive hardiness against spider mites and other pests, and she possesses a good measure of mold resistance. her slim appearance makes it possible to plant in narrow rows, or in SOG, to maximize her typical record yields even more. The firm side shoots provide highest quality cuttings. As with all our sativas she is heat resistant - an added bonus for small indoor environments and hot summer grows. The mainly sweet & fruity-spicy aroma is a real treat for the senses. Satori grows a long head bud with chunky flowers and does not require much feeding on soil; you can almost do without feeding provided you use quality soil and sufficient pot size (approx. 2 gallon pots for adult plants under 250-600W lamps). Keep EC levels low in hydroponics for best results. All Mandala strains are extremely efficient in nutrient uptake due to their hybrid vigor and require only low EC levels/feeding to develop huge leaf, stem and bud structure. Satori is a high yielding, powerful plant with an exceptional sativa high. The heavy buds are easy to manicure, and from the resinous bud leaves you can produce finest grade hash, comparable in quality to the famous Nepalese temple balls.

Kalichakra

Type: sativa-indica
Contains land race genetics from: South India / S.E.Asia
Cultivation: indoor/outdoor
Light: 400 W/m2
Flowering time: 63-68 days/October
Yield: 500-550 gr/m2 (dry weight)
High: a potent, sativa high with an energizing body effect; sensual and stimulating. Good for active recreation, but heavy indulgance can lead to a temporary state of being blissed-out; excellent potency despite long-term regular use.
Aroma (dry): fruity-floral; earthy; incense 
Medical Use: Kalichakra shows her therapeutic potential in pain relief and helping against depression.

Kalichakra is named after the Indian goddess Kali (a consort of the ganja smoking Lord Shiva) to symbolize the power of this hardy, potent, high-yielding sativa. Unlike typical sativas she develops extremely well indoor with vigorous growth and sturdy stems. This hybrid vigor, and the unique land race traits, make her surprisingly adaptable and easy to grow, and a good choice for novice gardeners. mother plants provide clones easily and quickly. The cuttings can be placed into flowering early for cultivating shorter plants in trays, grow boxes, etc., or to shorten flowering time. We recommend this strain for SOG as well. In hydroponics rapid growth can be expected. She responds well to being tied down and grows an impressively large main cola from the even light distribution. The high calyx-to-leaf ratio and frosty coating of trichomes contribute to the exceptional quality of the ripe flowers. The plants possess on average a good mold and pest resistance thanks to our dedicated breeding goals in minimizing undesirable genetic traits. Up to the 45° latitude Kalichakra delivers bumper yields outdoor and is one of the best strains available for hot/southern climates. In northern climates she has also performed well but results depend on plant care, local weather, and phenotype. 

I won't post pics as they're not mine to post, but you can see pics of the strains on the mandalaseeds.com website.


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## nongreenthumb (May 15, 2007)

babygro said:


> Heya Skunky, thanks for dropping in.
> 
> I'm trying to move away from the 'sanitised' over-bred Dutch genetics that all have far too much Indica bred into them to stabilise and bulk up their yield for growing under artificial lights. Kalichakra and Satori are bred by Mike from Mandala seeds who grows them all outdoors in spain and sources his genetics from landrace varieties.
> 
> Kalichakra has genetics from South India, SE Asia - it's a cross between Sativas from Kerala in South India, a Sativa Thai from Asia and I also believe it has some Columbian and Mexican in it as well as the obligatory touch of Indica for yield. Satori is based on several Sativa strains from Nepal as well as a touch of Indica.


Sounds like you would also like seeds from the flying dutchman seedbank, the guy behind the flying dutchman is a purist and likes to prevent strains from being over crossed most of his are eithe pure sativa or sativa dominant.

The FlyingDutchmen

He also believes that seedbanks such as sensi and dutch passion charge too much for their strains and that a strain should not be above a certain cost, i cant remember what that figure now.

Goto seeds, order seeds, i have some kerala krush in veg at the moment.


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## skunkushybrid (May 15, 2007)

Anything about height babygro, is this a consideration?

My grapefruit mother is really short, all her clones have never reached above 5ft... shame to see her go really. 

Anyway, looking forward to some pic's.


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## babygro (May 15, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Anything about height babygro, is this a consideration?


Skunky

Well it is of course a consideration, and this is from Mandala's website, so I guess they're basically just recommending flowering at lower heights to keep overall height down. That's fine with me as I'm considering going with SOG with these but that depends on how many females I end up with.

Did you notice the suggested yield rates of both of these? Pretty darned high for Sativa doms !


When should I switch to a 12/12 light cycle (flowering) for indoor plant height of 60-100cm/2-3.5 feet?

From seed in soil: 20-25 cm/8-10 inches

Cuttings in soil: 30 cm/12 inches

From seed in hydro

Sadhu, Hashberry, Speed Queen: 20 cm/8 inches

Kalichakra, Satori, White Satin: 15-20 cm/6-8 inches

Cuttings in hydro

Sadhu, Hashberry, Speed Queen: 25-30 cm/10+ inches

Kalichakra, Satori, White Satin: 20 cm/8 inches


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## babygro (May 15, 2007)

nongreenthumb said:


> Sounds like you would also like seeds from the flying dutchman seedbank, the guy behind the flying dutchman is a purist and likes to prevent strains from being over crossed most of his are eithe pure sativa or sativa dominant.
> 
> The FlyingDutchmen


NGT

Thanks very much for the heads up on The Flying Dutchman, I'll certainly check out his offerings. The beauty of Mandala Seeds is that not only are they very good genetics bred by someone who really knows what he's doing, they're also very reasonably priced - these two cost me 15 quid each for 10 seeds! Which I consider a pretty reasonably priced for some landrace derived decent genetics.


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## babygro (May 15, 2007)

nongreenthumb said:


> Nice strains tho, i've got a few kerala krush seedlings going at the moment, its got similar sativa effects, maybe have to do a lil swap of some sort


Wouldn't mind some cuts of your Jack Herer NGT, been interested in growing that out but have always been put off by the rediculous price of the seeds!


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## nongreenthumb (May 15, 2007)

When I get a decent mother, I'll be happy to sort you out some clones buddy.


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## skunkushybrid (May 16, 2007)

I haven't been growing long enough to know about force flowering. I do know that a plant will triple in height or thereabouts during flower. It also depends much on your pot size. My grapefruit which are (i think) 100% sativa are growing (dwc) in 6litres of root space each plant. They are at the 6 week mark and I'm growing them in the loft, they are barely reaching 4ft. No more than 4.5 ft by the end of flowering.

From seed, I always advise a decent veg', allowing the plants enough time to mature. I have found this to pay dividends when I instigate flower. The plants are ready and explode with pistils from day one of 12/12. Although as you are only looking for mothers, once these have been found the other plants are of little importance. It's my experience though that you still need to wait for the plants to mature properly (around 6-8 weeks), as even though you might be sure of your mother, you cannot really be sure until she shows sex, which is usually around the 6-8 week mark of veg'.


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## SnowWhite (May 16, 2007)

Hey babygro, looking forward to following this one. Hope all goes well for you mate!


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## babygro (May 16, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> I haven't been growing long enough to know about force flowering. I do know that a plant will triple in height or thereabouts during flower. It also depends much on your pot size. My grapefruit which are (i think) 100% sativa are growing (dwc) in 6litres of root space each plant. They are at the 6 week mark and I'm growing them in the loft, they are barely reaching 4ft. No more than 4.5 ft by the end of flowering.


Yeah there are quite a few factors that influence final plant size, obviously starting size and genetics will play a big part as will environment, particularly vegging light colour and min/max temperatures and even nutrient strengths. 

On the whole I think genetics plays the biggest part and Indica and Indica doms tend to double in size, Sativa and Sativa doms tend to triple and sometimes quadruple in size with Indica/Sativa hybrids sitting somewhere between the two.



skunkushybrid said:


> From seed, I always advise a decent veg', allowing the plants enough time to mature. I have found this to pay dividends when I instigate flower. The plants are ready and explode with pistils from day one of 12/12. Although as you are only looking for mothers, once these have been found the other plants are of little importance. It's my experience though that you still need to wait for the plants to mature properly (around 6-8 weeks), as even though you might be sure of your mother, you cannot really be sure until she shows sex, which is usually around the 6-8 week mark of veg'.


Yeah I'm a big fan of longer veg times particularly with Indica and Indica doms due to the fact that on average they only tend to double in size and so therefore the longer vegging time helps with yield as well as reaching sexual maturity which helps with potency.

My Sensi Star from seed was vegged for just under 7 weeks and still only reached about 28-30 inches tall, but benefitted from that extra veg time in the bushiness of it. The clones were vegged for slightly less time about 6 weeks and still only reached about 18 inches tall - mind you there were pretty tiny clones to begin with!

However, with very Sativa dominant plants this time round, particularly ones with the hybrid vigour that these Mandala genetics have I'm extremely wary of vegging them too long knowing how in flowering their height is going to literally explode. 

I'm not a big fan of SCRoG's but I'm very interested in Sog growing. So as you suggest I may well simply find two outstanding mothers out of both strains and keep them as mothers and grow out any other females that I might be lucky enough to get. I think both these strains I'm growing are well suited to Sog style growing and put out plenty of clone material.

I do think that with my setup these plants would be best grown out Sog style, so I'll just have to see how many females I get!


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## skunkushybrid (May 16, 2007)

Good luck. Although how are you going to find your mothers. early clone and force flower of such?

My master kush all germinated fine and went into the medium this morning. Hopefully they'll poke out their heads soon.


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## babygro (May 16, 2007)

SnowWhite said:


> Hey babygro, looking forward to following this one. Hope all goes well for you mate!


Thanks Snow White!

I'm really looking forward to this grow as I learnt so much doing my previous grows I'm keen to put it into practice! This is the first grow I'm going into pretty confident of knowing what I'm doing and what I'm trying to acheive. I'm also hoping to do a little experimentation this grow with lights and different feeding schedules and strengths.

So stick around it might get interesting


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## nongreenthumb (May 16, 2007)

I flowered some original haze at 4 weeks veg from seeds in hydro, my grow space just couldnt handle it, i vowed never a sativa again, but guess what i'm growing some.

With the jack and kerala krush im only going to germinate for a mother so that i can clone and keep the sexual maturity and hopefully flower them as soon as i see roots just to keep it managable.


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## skunkushybrid (May 16, 2007)

Yeah, sativas can rip. the only reason my grapefruit are so short is becuse they all came from an excellent mother, picked because of her stockier build.


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## babygro (May 17, 2007)

Few more pics taken today. Day 9 for 7 of them and day 5 for the one in the bottom right hand corner in the pics. The Kalichakra are all along the back row and the Satori all along the front row.


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## skunkushybrid (May 17, 2007)

Day 9 from veg'? Or day 9 from seed?


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## babygro (May 17, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Day 9 from veg'? Or day 9 from seed?


Hey Skunky !

Sorry I didn't make it clear - they're currently 9 days from breaking the soil surface and 5 days for the smaller one - for some reason that one took a lot longer than the others!


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## mattso101 (May 17, 2007)

Nice! I am going to go with a Mandala strain next grow. Thinking about Hashberry. I will be following this closley


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## nongreenthumb (May 17, 2007)

I'm quite intrigued by this strain

speed queen


*Type:* mostly indica*Contains land race genetics from: *Himachal Pradesh,North India*Cultivation:* indoor/outdoor (up to 48&#176; latitude, balcony, greenhouse)*Light:* 400 W/m2*Flowering time:* 55 days/September (south); mid October (north)*Yield:* 400-450 gr/m2 (dry weight)*High:* the &#8220;surfers&#8221; choice - a stimulating, and balanced indica buzz that does not put you to sleep. Pleasantly relaxing yet leaves plenty of energy for social activities and is a great daytime grass.*Medical potential: *this strain shows potential against anxiety and depression.

it the potential against anxiety and depression that interests me

sorry to spam your grow babygro


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## ljjr (May 17, 2007)

growing sq clone right now, likes loww nutes, i have mandala's hashberry as well very relaxed smoke, BG ur gonna love kali, and the trippy satori high. gl in your grow! your babies look healthy!

LJ

GROW ON!!


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## babygro (May 18, 2007)

mattso101 said:


> Nice! I am going to go with a Mandala strain next grow. Thinking about Hashberry. I will be following this closley


Hiya Matt

I've read quite a bit about Hashberry from Mandala. Apparently it was voted in the top 10 strains of 2006 by High Times Magazine, which is some achievement from a small breeder like Mandala., just goes to show hoe seriously he takes his genetics.

Hashberry is Indica dominant I beleive and this time around I was particularly looking for Sativa dominant strains otherwise I may have tried it myself. White Satin is supposedly their 'low light' level strain and low odour I beleive - perfect for stealth grows.

Good luck with your Hashberry if you decide to go with it. I'm really looking forward to growing these out and they require very little feed by the sounds of it.


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## babygro (May 18, 2007)

nongreenthumb said:


> it the potential against anxiety and depression that interests me
> 
> sorry to spam your grow babygro


No worries NGT, the more the merrier really.

All of Mandala's strains sound interesting, partially because they include such good information with their strains - far more than most seed breeders in my opinion. It is quite difficult to decide which one to go for they all sound good and all have certain advantages. I was mostly interested in their Sativa and Sativa dominant genetics as I grew out a mostly Indica plant in my last grow and wanted to try a Sativa from a good breeder that didn't get out of control in terms of height and gave decent yields.

If you look at the yields of both Kalichakra and Satori you'll see they're both pretty high yielders, which surprised me somewhat coming from an Sativa dominant plant. What I think they've done is taken advantage of the small amounts of Indica they've crossed these pure Sativas with and thats where the yield is coming from. Even the leaves look very Indica like at the moment - very broad leaved. So they've managed to breed in some of the stronger better Indica traits into a plant that's primarily Sativa and gives a Sativa high.

The next grow after this one I'm seriously thinking about taking on a pure Sativa, perhaps one of the Hazes.


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## babygro (May 18, 2007)

ljjr said:


> growing sq clone right now, likes loww nutes, i have mandala's hashberry as well very relaxed smoke, BG ur gonna love kali, and the trippy satori high. gl in your grow! your babies look healthy!


Thanks for stopping by LJ and for the heads up on Kali and Satori's high - I've heard the Satori is a bit trippy and psychedelic!

Strangely the Kalichakra's seem a lot more vigorous than the Satori's at the moment - all the Kali's are buzzing along merrily, the Satori's all seem a few days behind and the 4th one way behind due to it popping the soil surface 4 days after the others!


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## skunkushybrid (May 18, 2007)

babygro said:


> Thanks for stopping by LJ and for the heads up on Kali and Satori's high - I've heard the Satori is a bit trippy and psychedelic!
> 
> Strangely the Kalichakra's seem a lot more vigorous than the Satori's at the moment - all the Kali's are buzzing along merrily, the Satori's all seem a few days behind and the 4th one way behind due to it popping the soil surface 4 days after the others!


 
That is strange. 

It can only be that the satori's are not as fresh... just needed that bit more water in them to grow. Only thing that makes sense really.


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## Bigbud (May 18, 2007)

Looking good babygro

I see you changed soil and hope you find out by the end of this grow if its the water or nutes causeing the Mg deficiency, though from what I have read im going with the nutes

Never heard of these strains before, they sound very nice do you have any pics of what your buds will turn out like ?


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## babygro (May 18, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> That is strange.
> 
> It can only be that the satori's are not as fresh... just needed that bit more water in them to grow. Only thing that makes sense really.


Heya Skunky

I just put it down to it being a different strain and therefore possessing a different hybrid vigour. Could be freshness of seeds as well of course.

I tried a different germination method this time as well. I know people develop their own ways of germinating seeds and tend to stick to them but I do beleive some methods carry less risk than others.

The first time round I used the 'soak in water for 24 hours' method and then between two moist paper towels in a tupperware container. All 3 seeds cracked and produced a taproot and want on to become mature plants - 100% germination. However, since then I've learnt that that process carries certain risks - picking up the seed and planting the taproot in the seedling soil being one of them, the risk of the soaking water penetrating the seed hull and rotting the embrionic seedling being another. I think the pre-soak, between tissue method is best for older seeds where germination problems are expected.

This time I simply mixed up the soil mixture, planted the seed and watered. Placed the pots in a warm, dark place and within about 3 days 7/8 seeds had popped the surface, it was only about 4 days later that the final one popped the soil surface. So 100% germination again and using a safer germination method.

I think I'll be sticking to this process from now on, unless dealing with very old seeds.


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## babygro (May 18, 2007)

Bigbud said:


> Looking good babygro
> 
> I see you changed soil and hope you find out by the end of this grow if its the water or nutes causeing the Mg deficiency, though from what I have read im going with the nutes
> 
> Never heard of these strains before, they sound very nice do you have any pics of what your buds will turn out like ?


Hiya Bigbud, thanks for dropping in.

Well I'm just using up the last of the Allmix now by mixing it in with some JI No 2 and adding some perlite and vermiculite simply because I feel that mixture even mixed 40:40 would have been too hot for little seedlings if not mixed in with perlite and vermiculite. I shant be using much perlite and vermiculite in the potting up mixes because modern composts already drain well and by leaving them out you include more nutrients for the plant.

I shan't be using Allmix again, I'll be going with some Westlands Multi Purpose Compost with added John Innes with about 5% vermiculite, 5% perlite, dolomite lime, calcified seaweed and some rock dust.

If Allmix was a good compost and produced good results I'd use it, the price isn't the issue, but I'm not paying top price for a compost when it doesn't do what it's supposed to - I may as well use compost 1/4 the price.

Mandala strains aren't what I'd call 'mainstream' strains, in fact I'd say they're the opposite to all these strains being mixed and hybridised in Holland at the moment. These strains originate from landrace genetics, ie genetics that are grown and cultivated outdoors where they still retain (hopefully) the genes responsibile for fuller THC realisation from UVB exposure due to their being grown and bred outdoors rather than under lights as in Holland. 

By careful crossing, selection and breeding Mike from Mandala seeds has succeeded in producing F1's with excellent hybrid vigour and homogenous growth pattens whilst maintaining the carefully selected characteristics of the parents.

For 15 quid for 10 seeds, how can you afford not to give them a go?

I can't post pictures here that aren't my copyright, so take a look at the website Mandala Seeds for plenty of pictures of all their strains.


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## babygro (May 21, 2007)

Quick update on the Satori's and Kalichakra's.

It's now nearly 14 days since popping the surface and all 8 seems to be doing reasonably well. They're still only being fed plain water about every 4 days at the moment. The Kalichakra's still seem to be growing at a faster rate than the Satori's as can be seen by the pictures. I've rotated the pot positions as well so whilst they were shown in 1, 2, 3, 4 format, they're now reversed and shown as 4,3,2,1. The Kali's are still at the back and the Satori's still at the front.

I'm starting to get my supplies and materials ready now for the next pot up, which should happen within the next couple of weeks.

Hope you enjoy the pics.


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## nongreenthumb (May 21, 2007)

Those are some nice wide indica leaves you got going on there


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## babygro (May 21, 2007)

nongreenthumb said:


> Those are some nice wide indica leaves you got going on there


It's odd isn't it, they're both supposed to be very Sativa dominant and give a Sativa up high, yet the leaf formations look very Indica. I can only assume that the breeder crossed the Sativas with an Indica to improve yield, yet kept in the Indica leaf traits and perhaps other Indica growth characteristics.


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## nongreenthumb (May 21, 2007)

babygro said:


> It's odd isn't it, they're both supposed to be very Sativa dominant and give a Sativa up high, yet the leaf formations look very Indica. I can only assume that the breeder crossed the Sativas with an Indica to improve yield, yet kept in the Indica leaf traits and perhaps other Indica growth characteristics.


Lets hope that carries through to the yield hey


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## skunkushybrid (May 21, 2007)

The one bottom left looks like it could be a runt... or was this the last seed to germ'? Still though, this could still mean it'll be a runt.

I'm sure the leaves will lengthen out as the plant grows.


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## babygro (May 22, 2007)

nongreenthumb said:


> Lets hope that carries through to the yield hey


Yeah, fingers crossed. The breeders estimates of indoor yields are pretty good though so lets hope they're right !


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## babygro (May 22, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> The one bottom left looks like it could be a runt... or was this the last seed to germ'? Still though, this could still mean it'll be a runt.
> 
> I'm sure the leaves will lengthen out as the plant grows.


Yeah that's the one that germed after all the others. It may well become a 'runt' but the Sensi Star grow I did from seed I had one out of three that was slower than all the rest and it turned out to be the only female I got, so I may well let this one continue and see what it does.


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## skunkushybrid (May 22, 2007)

babygro said:


> Yeah that's the one that germed after all the others. It may well become a 'runt' but the Sensi Star grow I did from seed I had one out of three that was slower than all the rest and it turned out to be the only female I got, so I may well let this one continue and see what it does.


I hear that. Exactly the same thing just happened to me on the la conf' x mystery haxe. I had what I thought were 2 runts. One was really a runt and the other turned out to be a very small female, I'm guessing following in the bloodline of the LA Conf'.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting you should pull it... i just like to see into the future, if I can.


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## babygro (May 22, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> I hear that. Exactly the same thing just happened to me on the la conf' x mystery haxe. I had what I thought were 2 runts. One was really a runt and the other turned out to be a very small female, I'm guessing following in the bloodline of the LA Conf'.
> 
> Oh, I wasn't suggesting you should pull it... i just like to see into the future, if I can.


Well I have to confess a certain element of impatience with that seed, as after 4-5 days nothing had happened I decided to dig it up to see what's what, because if nothing had happened a new one was going in. I did so very carefully so as not to cause any damage and there was a taproot of about an inch long, so I decided to very carefully put it back into the soil and see what happened. After a couple of days of nothing happening I decided to pull it out and plant a new seed so after having scooped out the first soil I noticed two cotyledons just below the surface so decided to give it another day or so and covered it over with soil again. Next day it popped the surface and the rest is history so to speak.

So, I don't know what damage I may have caused by digging it up, but I don't think that's the cause of it being a runt - I just think it's a weak seed.

Nevertheless I'll be interested in seeing how it develops.


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## recvryjst42day (May 22, 2007)

Sweet man, cant wait to see some more pics!! Good luck!


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## SnowWhite (May 25, 2007)

Hey man....how's it's going? Plants were looking great in the last pic update. Hope all is well.

I really like the look of these Mandala seeds dude, and the price, great find! The breeder info on the seeds is very informative as well! I see you are following their recommendations, smart move!

I've just ordered myself 10 x Satori and 10 x Hashberry for my next indoor grow. Which I will get started as soon as I receive my seeds!

I'll be starting another journal when the time comes!

How long did your seeds take to arrive btw??


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## babygro (May 26, 2007)

SnowWhite said:


> How long did your seeds take to arrive btw??


Heya SW

Thanks for your kind words. I ordered from Dr Chronic on a Thursday and they'd arrived on the Saturday - so pretty quck really!

I think Mandala use some pretty interesting genetics in their crosses and it's a refreshing change from the usual suspects you find in Dutch breeding.

I'm sure you'll be pleased with your Mandala seed purchases


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## babygro (May 28, 2007)

So 6 days after the last update, it's now day 25 from planting the seeds and about 20 days for 7 of them from popping the soil surface.

As can be seen from the pics they've all had a bit of a growth spurt in the last 6 days or so and are going nicely. 

They're all still in their original pots, all I've given them is simple plain tap water warmed up with a little boiled water to tepid temperature - nothing else, no nutrients, no feeds, no foliar sprays. Just light, warmth and water. Temperatures are stable at 20-30 depending on the day, RH is still fine about 30 RH lights on and about 50 lights off.

They look nice and healthy to me and the next stage will be to pot up to some 3L pots or thereabouts, although I'm still waiting for some supplies to come in for that so hoping they'll arrive before the end of the week which is probably about the time I'll need to pot them up.

Positions have all moved again because I moved a couple of them for light purposes (I tend to move them every time I water, which is about every 4 days at the moment) but the Kalichakra are now all at the front and Satori all at the back.

Pleased with progress so far, looking forward to potting them up now.

The 'runt' is back right in all these pics.


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## babygro (May 28, 2007)

Couple more pics..


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## skunkushybrid (May 28, 2007)

Looking good babygro... noticed that the leaves still have a very indica appearance.


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## babygro (May 28, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Looking good babygro... noticed that the leaves still have a very indica appearance.


Cheers Skunky

I'm really pleased with their progress so far, I've already avoided the mistake I made the first time round growing from seed - potted them up far too quickly - I can see from my notes, I potted them up on day 9 of having broken the soil surface last time!

Yeah, the Indica leaves aren't going to change now - it's a genetic trait I think and the breeder has clearly allowed the broad Indica leaves to become dominant. It doesn't really matter does it as long as the high is Sativa 

I've also noticed that the 'runt' is a slightly lighter green than all the other plants and I'm wondering if this is a different pheno to the others in which case it's retarded early development may well have been genetic. Either that or it's the same pheno as the others and the colour change is due to it's late development, but that makes less sense than the former reason.

All good and interesting stuff, I'm going to hang by your MK diary now to see how your little baby MK sprouts are doing.


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## recvryjst42day (Jun 2, 2007)

Looking real good! Keep it up.


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## babygro (Jun 4, 2007)

recvryjst42day said:


> Looking real good! Keep it up.


Thanks recvryjst42day, I have high hopes for this grow


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## babygro (Jun 4, 2007)

Okay update time. Quite a lot has happened since the last update.

So its day 27 from popping the soil surface for Satori 2,3,4 and Kalichakra 1,2,3,4 and 22 days from popping the soil surface for Satori 1.

I got everything I needed assembled for this repot, which I was going to do on Fri/Sat and did repot Satori no1 on Friday using Westland Multi-Purpose Compost with added JI, it was only then that I started noticing a number of comments on another site about how people were having problems with the current bags of this compost - apparently the formulation had changed. 

I went ahead and repotted Satori #1 on Friday, because I wanted to see how the compost would perform. The mix I made up comprised 7 parts Westlands, 2 parts Biobizz Allmix (just using it up and taking advantage of the higher N content of Allmix) plus 1/2 part perlite, 1/2 part vermiculite. soil amendments were a 1 tsp of calcified seaweed and 1 tsp of dolomite lime, the lime to help with the ph buffering and the seaweed to add trace elements and magnesium. I also added a tsp of Rootgrow to each repot to add Micorrhizal funghi.

The Westlands broke up okay, but it was very fine and I suspected it has too much clay in it, which is why it compacts down quite hard. I wasn't happy with the Westlands and decided to source an alternative. After much deliberation I decided to go for something from a company in NI called Growmoor and they did a Multi-Purpose compost with added John Innes which was supposed to be a direct replacement for the Westlands MP. So I decided to use this for the rest of the repot. I altered the ratio's a little taking into consideration the 'better' soil texture and less 'fineness' and clay of the Growmoor. 

I spent a long time sieving and working the compost to reconstitute it and take out any large stones, pieces of uncomposted bark etc and then mixed it up as follows - 7.5 parts compost, 2 parts Allmix, 0.25 parts Vermiculute and 0.25 parts Perlite, same Calcified seaweed, Lime and Rootgrow as before. I reduced down the soil drainage amendments because this compost looked a lot more 'bulky' and possessed more 'body' than the Westlands did.

I supposed I could be accused of being a bit anal about my compost mixture, in a way I am, because the quality of your compost will have a direct influence on how healthily your plants grow and how quickly they start showing signs of deficiencies - not all composts are the same, drain as well as each other and contain varying amounts of nutrients.

Suffice to say all the plants are now potted up into the new compost mixture and apart from a bit of drooping which was expected from the stress and lack of oxygen to the root zone, are now all doing very nicely. There are a few odd spots on the leaves where I was careless in the repotting and managed to get something on the leaves - may have been water or damp soil.


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## babygro (Jun 4, 2007)

The first picture shows the difference in colours between the later starting Satori #1 and Satori #2, it's clearly a lighter green and is more pronounced in real life. There's supposed to be two different pheno's of Satori, one more Sativa like and taller than the other and this was has a better yield potential, now I don't know whether it has a different colour as well. The lighter plant certainly seems to have much larger fan leaves than the others.

The second picture shows the internode spacing. They're up to about node 7 or 8 at the moment and I'm happy with the current internode spacing, it's about 3/4 of an inch per node and for a Sativa dominant plants, that's acceptable. I've been paying particular attention to the temperatures and enlarged the passive air intake to a larger size to allow a slower 'velocity' of air to enter the chamber, this has allowed me to lower the fan speed to a more optimal one in terms of noise and importantly, kept the min and max temperatures to within 5 degrees of each other - they're now about 20 -26 min/max at the moment. RH has risen slightly to 40-60 min/max which is pretty much optimal.

The third picture shows them all from above and as you can see they're all nice and healthy apart from one or two water spots to the leaves. There's no signs at all of over/underwatering or nutrient burn. There's a very faint fading and lightening of the leaves on some of the lower leaves, which suggests two things 1) they were simply ready for some more nutrient rich soil, having depleted the old soil reserves and were ready for their repot, which suggests doing it on Saturday may have been a day or so later than it should have been, or 2) they're getting an N or Mg deficiency despite the new soil and may need a weak 'top up' feeding of either N (Biobizz Grow) or Epsom salts, I'll have to watch them over the next few days and see if the lightening worsens, stops or greens up. I may even consider giving them a Maxicrop seaweed foliar spray or get some Biobizz Fishmix and foliar feed them some of that just to green them up a little.

Just one other oddity I noticed whilst inspecting the plants - one of them has 4 leaflets! The fourth leaflet is clearly defined but the one on the other side is completely missing. As you probably know Cannabis leaves go 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 leaflets, it's odd to find one with 4.

Watering tip for anyone interested.
As some of you may know I also border on being anal about watering as well as compost. That's probably because after compost, watering is the next more important thing to get right. Worse damage can be caused by over and under watering than nutrient over-fertilisation and pretty much anything else you can think of, want an easy way to kill you plant or stunt it's growth permanently? Don't water it properly.

Anyway on with the tip. It's a simple and useful little tip that many people simply ignore or aren't aware of, but can play a very important role. When watering on soil, use a little watering can with a little sprinkle rose attached to it. I have one that holds about a pint of water at a time. Use the sprinkling action from the watering can rose to simulate rain falling on the soil surface - this helps to aerate and add oxygen to the soil as it enters. The little droplets of water enter the soil with oxygen and aerate the soil structure. It takes a little longer watering with a sprinkler as less water comes out, but still follow the standard 'wet/dry' watering procedures. 

Another tip (I don't do this) is to use an airstone in your irrigation water for a couple of hours before you water your plants. This also aerates and pushes oxygen into the water and when given to the plants carries that oxygen down to the root zone where it's used.


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## SnowWhite (Jun 4, 2007)

Looking good mate......excellent job so far! 

I'm just researching my soil for my Satori and Hashberry grow actually, which I'll be starting in the next week or so. I'm thinking of going for the westland Organic multi purpose potting mix. Like you, I find the BioBizz and Canna soils (which I used for my first grow) a little pricey. The westland stuff is a third of the price.

The airstone idea is one I've been considering too. Just not sure how noisey it is having an air stone bubbling away in some water. Noise is a big consideration for me as my grow is in my shed which is not far enough from the neighbours. I'm going to setup a pump free irrigation system for my next grow as well. Just to be used if I have to go away for more than 3 days. Maybe I'll add an airstone as well to see how noisey it is.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 5, 2007)

My larger grow is in a high rise block of flats, and we had complaints when we first set up the bubblers. The guy downstairs couldn't sleep for the noise. We had to raise everything up on pads to stop the vibrations.

Good to see that your grow is stiil going strong babygro.

Another good way to add oxygen to your feed is to add liquid oxygen.


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## SnowWhite (Jun 5, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> My larger grow is in a high rise block of flats, and we had complaints when we first set up the bubblers. The guy downstairs couldn't sleep for the noise. We had to raise everything up on pads to stop the vibrations.


Yeah shit...I thought they'd be noisey! I worry (only a bit) about the slight humming I get from my fans, and I mounted my 5" extractor on rubber to reduce the vibrations, don't think I could get away with a bubbler as well!


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 5, 2007)

Yeah, if you use an air disk at the bottom of the pot these make a lot of noise when the pot is sitting on the floor. Also the pumps themselves need muffling. It can be done. The noise is more the kind that you feel rather than actually hear, it has to be vibrating against something.


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## babygro (Jun 5, 2007)

SnowWhite said:


> I'm just researching my soil for my Satori and Hashberry grow actually, which I'll be starting in the next week or so. I'm thinking of going for the westland Organic multi purpose potting mix. Like you, I find the BioBizz and Canna soils (which I used for my first grow) a little pricey. The westland stuff is a third of the price.


Thanks! I'm pleased with progress so far. I'd get faster growth with more light, such as a 250w MH, but the progress under my 200w blue Enviro is reasonable. I'd be better off in my grow space to use 2 x 125w blue Enviro's though.

Be wary of 'organic composts' from Westlands or anywhere else. They don't grow healthy plants all of the time. In all the Which trial compost tests the organics always perform worse than the Multi-Purpose and peat based composts. One can only assume this is because the organic composts do not use peat like the Multi-purpose ones do. Peat is not considered a 'renewable source' and therefore has not been approved for organic use by the soil association. Organic by definition means having been sourced from a 'living tissue' ie animal and plant sources. Peat is dead and decomposed plant matter and therefore very much 'organic' by definition.

This is the reason for much of the confusion over organic and non-organic derived composts - just because you're using a soil with peat in it does not mean it is not organic, it just doesn't meet the soil associations guidelines on what THEY consider to be organic. It's a 'definition' thing. So stay clear of these supposed approved 'organic' composts, peat based ones will always outperform them. Unless of course it's a 'moral' thing for you in which case get the one with the added John Innes, so you get at least some nutrients in there!



SnowWhite said:


> The airstone idea is one I've been considering too. Just not sure how noisey it is having an air stone bubbling away in some water.


It's quite a big consideration for me as well, but it depends on just how noisey it gets.


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## babygro (Jun 5, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> My larger grow is in a high rise block of flats, and we had complaints when we first set up the bubblers. The guy downstairs couldn't sleep for the noise. We had to raise everything up on pads to stop the vibrations.


Thanks for the heads up on the noise of the bubblers. I suspected they may be a little noisey, but for the price, they're quite cheap, it's worth trying one out I think. Instead of perhaps having one going for a full hour, you set it on a timer to run for 15 minutes every hour for 4 hours or something. OR dangle it in the water so it doesn't vibrate.



skunkushybrid said:


> Good to see that your grow is stiil going strong babygro.


Thanks, I'm pleased with the progress. This ones going a lot more smoothly that the ones before. I've noticed one thing however which I've found a little odd in this grow. Now, it may be me, it might be coincidence, I'm not quite sure yet but I've noticed that the temperatures rise quite considerably when the oscillating fan is operating and drop back down when it stops. Anyone else noticed this? I'm just wondering if the oscillating fan is interfering with the efficiency of the negative pressure ventilation system and not allowing as much fresh cooler air in. Because it's in such a small area the little 6 inch oscillating fan is too powerful even on its lowest setting, it needs another setting down really.  Wonder if a fan speed controller wired into the oscillating fan would help lower its speed? Its not a major deal really as I can control the temperatures easily with the oscilatting fan off and I don't really need it on at the moment there's enough air movement with the intake system.



skunkushybrid said:


> Another good way to add oxygen to your feed is to add liquid oxygen.


Yeah, I prefer cheap or no-cost solutions though


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## SnowWhite (Jun 5, 2007)

Yeah, I used 2 x 125W blue envirolites for vegging in my cupboard and I will be using them again. Worked good for me. Can you stretch to second 200W??....that would work VERY nicely in a double reflector!!

I'll check out the Which articles, hadn't thought of looking there actually, thanks.....then I'm going to Blooms and am going to read the back of all their soil bags to see what I like the look of. I can't buy any yet though as I'm skint!  But I should be able to get my Satori and Hashberry started next week when I have some money to get the soil.

Peat is an organic material, its just not so eco friendly to remove it from marshes etc, so I guess that's what why the soil association don't approve its use in soil mixes. I wouldn't think twice about planting a hanging basket up using a peat based mix, so there's certainly no moral reason why I shouldn't use it for my ganga! I'd use the canna soil again with a few tweaks if it wasn't 15 quid a bag!!


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## babygro (Jun 5, 2007)

SnowWhite said:


> Yeah, I used 2 x 125W blue envirolites for vegging in my cupboard and I will be using them again. Worked good for me. Can you stretch to second 200W??....that would work VERY nicely in a double reflector!!


Sure, I could put another 200w in there, but I just don't think you need 400w of enviro's to veg 8 plants - it's more the light spread I'm interested in, which 2 x 125w's would do a better job.



SnowWhite said:


> I'll check out the Which articles, hadn't thought of looking there actually, thanks.....then I'm going to Blooms and am going to read the back of all their soil bags to see what I like the look of. I can't buy any yet though as I'm skint!  But I should be able to get my Satori and Hashberry started next week when I have some money to get the soil.


It's hard to advise you on which one to get as I'm as confused as the next person - the compost companies keep changing their formulations without telling anyone. J A Bowers Multipurpose compost (not the one with added John Innes) I beleive is a good one, but only that one. Also B&Q Multi-purpose compost is supposed to be good as well. To be honest, from what I've been reading, I'd stay clear of the Westland products with the Advanced West+ in them as a lot of the problems people have been having is stemming from the time that was introduced. Might be a coincidence or not, but people have been having problems growing Canna in Westland products since the formulation change.



SnowWhite said:


> Peat is an organic material, its just not so eco friendly to remove it from marshes etc, so I guess that's what why the soil association don't approve its use in soil mixes. I wouldn't think twice about planting a hanging basket up using a peat based mix, so there's certainly no moral reason why I shouldn't use it for my ganga! I'd use the canna soil again with a few tweaks if it wasn't 15 quid a bag!!


Of course peats organic and yes, that's pretty much why the Soil Association have decided it isn't organic or at least doesn't fit in with their 'organic principles'.

The Canna and Allmix soils are both great composts, that's not in doubt really although I've never tried the Canna, I've heard its similar to the Biobizz one. As you say though, at the prices being charged for them and the hassle and cost of having to collect the stuff means (in my mind at least) they'd have to be worth that in terms of performance and for me the Allmix certainly wasn't. That may not all be down to Allmix, my water is medium hard and for some reason Allmix doesn't seem to like hard water, now that might be because the Allmix starting EC is already at 2.4 which is pretty high already, now add in 0.8+ EC of hard tap water and you start getting an EC of 3.2, when you should only be feeding at something like 0.8-1.0 EC.

I'd love to try Allmix with RO water, as I think you'd really see Allmix at its best then would be interesting to do a test grow between Allmix and RO water and say one of the better peforming common composts like J A Bowers MP and see if the Allmix performs 2-3 times as well!

What's interesting is that both the Canna and Allmix soils are listed as being organic yet have peat in them. So technically they're not organic by the Soil Association parameters and therefore do not have organic status in this country. However, they do conform to the EC and European Organic certification bodies, as they clearly do not have a moral problem with the way peat is sourced.


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## Wavels (Jun 5, 2007)

Excellent journal babygro....
I am quite intrigued with Mandalas genetics...I checked on seed boutique and they are all under $30 US for the packs...some are only $17!
I think I am going to indulge myself with a few of Mandalas strains!
Thanks for the heads up!
Good luck on the completion of your grow!


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## SnowWhite (Jun 6, 2007)

babygro said:


> Sure, I could put another 200w in there, but I just don't think you need 400w of enviro's to veg 8 plants - it's more the light spread I'm interested in, which 2 x 125w's would do a better job.


Fair enough....like I say, 2 x 125W worked well for me. It was perfect for vegging my 6 plants.




babygro said:


> It's hard to advise you on which one to get as I'm as confused as the next person - the compost companies keep changing their formulations without telling anyone. J A Bowers Multipurpose compost (not the one with added John Innes) I beleive is a good one, but only that one. Also B&Q Multi-purpose compost is supposed to be good as well.


Yep, I've been looking at the J Arhtur Bowers range too. I bet the B&Q stuff is good value as well, thanks, I'll check it out.



babygro said:


> What's interesting is that both the Canna and Allmix soils are listed as being organic yet have peat in them. So technically they're not organic by the Soil Association parameters and therefore do not have organic status in this country. However, they do conform to the EC and European Organic certification bodies, as they clearly do not have a moral problem with the way peat is sourced.


Yeah man...and I bet it's not 15 quid a bag in The Netherlands either! My plants did love the Canna stuff though. With the exception of the freak one which had some MG and P problems I now believe, but I don't think that was the fault of the soil, this plant just was a little bit more hungry than all my others and I did not respond to it when needed. I've got myself an EC truncheon off eBay (from China, very cheap!) so I'll be monitoring these levels for my next grow when watering and feeding.


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## babygro (Jun 6, 2007)

Wavels said:


> Excellent journal babygro....
> I am quite intrigued with Mandalas genetics...I checked on seed boutique and they are all under $30 US for the packs...some are only $17!
> I think I am going to indulge myself with a few of Mandalas strains!
> Thanks for the heads up!
> Good luck on the completion of your grow!


Thanks Wavels.

I don't think you'll be disapointed with Mandala's genetics - they're a fresh change from the indoor over-bred Dutch genetics which are just based around a dozen or so tried and tested strains. Mandalas are fresh genetics collected from all over the world and grown outside and bred in Spain. Don't be fooled by the cheap price, these aren't cheap and nasty seeds and plants, these are properly bred and developed genetics with dominant growth and nutrient uptake traits deliberately bred into the lines. Take a browse through their website and take a look at some of their strains - there's not a huge variety to choose from, but each one has been individually bred for specific traits and they all share common characteristics eg vigourous growth patterns, large leaves, efficient nutrient uptake, low feeding requirements and resistance to mould and heat stress. Because of this they're relatively easy to grow.

Mandala Seeds beleives strongly in allowing everyone, no matter who they may be access to quality Canna genetics at a price everyone can afford. Profits are not their primary concern, customer delight and strong healthy plants is. They make a fresh change from the increasingly greedy profiteering Dutch breeders.

I've been very pleased with the progress of my Mandala strains, given optimal growing conditions and care I beleive these plants are capable of outstanding results and aren't that hard to grow.

Ace seeds (AceSeeds) also do some interesting strains too, very much along the lines of Mandala and I beleive they grow outside in Spain as well. Ace are more expensive than Mandala and their prices have increased recently. I still think the Ace strains represent good value for money in terms of the strains they offer but are less attractive now since they increased their prices.


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## babygro (Jun 11, 2007)

Okay update time. 

So its day 35 from popping the soil surface for Satori 2,3,4 and Kalichakra 1,2,3,4 and 30 days from popping the soil surface for Satori 1.

Not much has happened really apart from a growth spurt after their repotting which wasn't too much of a surprise. I've given them one plain watering each since their repotting and no nutrients. They'll need watering again in the next couple of days.

Whilst most look perfectly happy and healthy there's a couple of the taller growers (which may well be males) with a small amount of yellowing and browning on the tips of the first single pair of leaves, no other leaves are affected. I suspect this may just be a fungus due to the leaf being so close to the soil and getting wet most waterings but I think they could all do with a little greening up and small amount of nutrient boost through perhaps a fishmix foliar spray. I also need to get some new pots so I may get them and some fishmix at the same time this week.

The couple of pics show how much they've grown and all the Kalichakra are at the back and Satori at the front. From height and lower growth I'd say 3 of the 4 Satori's look female, of the Kalichakras it's hard to say because they're all tall, but some seem to be getting taller than others and based on that and under growth I'd say at the moment there's 2/2 female to male. Hard to tell at the moment, but it's worth noting things down and comparing to when you know their sexes.


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## KushMaster85 (Jun 11, 2007)

WOW Finaly a grow journal from you! Everything looks good. I found a little reading on your strains you have there:
Satori and Kalichakra have a taller pheno which expresses the most sativa qualities. These plants tend to stretch more and flower longer which in turn leads to higher yields. The effect also differs from the shorter pheno. If you are aiming for maximum yield you will find that the taller pheno in these strains has the greatest potential. Aroma, taste, and effect are a matter of personal preference among growers. You would have to sample your plants to find out which is your favourite. 
Great grow and please keep us posted! 
 Roll One Up For You.


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## babygro (Jun 15, 2007)

KushMaster85 said:


> WOW Finaly a grow journal from you! Everything looks good.


Hiya KushMaster

Thanks for your kind words. This is the first grow I've done that could be followed from the start since joining the site, hence why you've not seen any journals from me before now.



KushMaster85 said:


> Great grow and please keep us posted!


Thanks for the info on the different phenotypes. Do you have an information on the lighter green pheno? IS this the taller one they refer to?

Thanks again and I'll certainly keep this one going to the end hopefully.


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## babygro (Jun 15, 2007)

Day 39, start of the 7th week from popping the soil surface.

The slight leaf yellowing I mentioned earlier turned out to be Mg deficiency as I was expecting. It only affected the very lowest leaves on most of the plants and these have now come off. I watered them all today with 1 tablespoon of epsom salts per 4 litres of water and 0.5 mil Biobizz grow per Litre of water, just to give them an N pep.

So that confirms it pretty much in my mind - the Mg deficiency problems I had on the last grow and now starting on this one is down to my tap water and not the Biobizz Allmix soil I used last time as I used two different composts this time. Dissapointly enough, that was also what i was expecting as I already knew my tap water was hard and obviously has quite a lot of disolved Calcium Carbonate salts in it and this is what's causing the problem. An excess of Calcium can lockout other nutrients and this is exactly what it's doing to the Mg, as Canna uses quite large quantities of Mg which is usually available in the soil (particularly as I added Dolomite Lime this time as well) but unavailable to the plant due to an excess of Calcium.

The only alternative I have now to fix this, is to use, at least in the short term, 50/50 tap water and bottled mineral water and continue with the epsom salts and in the longer term to get an RO machine.

Other than that, they're coming on well and growing so fast and tall that I'm going to have to repot them into larger pots ready for flowering. Because of the limited space I have (I can't flower 8 plants in my space) I have to repot them into 3.5L pots to fit 8 plants in that space and then once I've sexed them (hopefully within the first 2-3 weeks of 12/12) I can repot the females into the 6.5L pots and discard the males. It's not ideal to repot in flowering and I certainly don't recommend others do it, but due to my space restrictions I have no alternative. I'll use some Superthrive and Seaweed extract when watering after the repot to help releive transplant stress. If it's done within the first 2-3 weeks of flowering there's usually minimal harm done.

I've been looking at the plants quite carefully for signs of sex and so far there are no pre-flowers on any of the plants. My only guide is height, amiount of growth and side branching developing at the bottom of the plant and general leaf size and span. From those three criteria my estimation is 3/4 Satori and 2/4 Kalichakra females. The Kalichakra's are particularly difficuly to distinguish in terms of height as they're all pretty much the same height, but the undergrowth and leaf patterns are more of an indication. I find height as an indicator a bit confusing, as in my first Sensi Star grow I had 2 out of 3 males and whilst one was certainly taller than the other two, one was the same height as the female.

I'll need to start taking some clones next week with a view to putting them into flower at the end of the week.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 15, 2007)

They should start showing soon... good to see everything is fine. And this is a reminder to me that I need to update my own journals. Just had a lot going on lately. Sorry if I seem a bit off.


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## recvryjst42day (Jun 16, 2007)

Very nice! Keep it up man!


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## KushMaster85 (Jun 18, 2007)

Everything is looking good. No sorry I did not find nething about the light green verses darker. It could be that one of the phenos may require more of some nutrient hence causing the lighter color or just part of the pheno. Please keep us posted.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 19, 2007)

Yes Kush. When you grow from seed it stands to reason that each plant will need to be treated differently. Personally, I don't bother... if the plant aint strong enough then it don't deserve to live anyway.


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## jimbo_jim (Jun 19, 2007)

Skunk, u sound such a heartless bastard!!! j/k


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## GoodFriend (Jun 19, 2007)

great grow baby!

actually, it was this journal that made me look into and eventually decide on the mandala seeds as the ones for me next grow... (satori and hashberry for me)

can't wait to see the girls in flowering action, and see the end result (especially of the satori for obvious reasons)

i was wondering... have you ever grown the mandala stuff before? so far its looking like quite the gem, especially for the price (off their site nothing is more than 20bucks US i think!)

best of luck buddy!!!


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## nongreenthumb (Jun 19, 2007)

I think I may well pick up the sadhu, that looks quite nice to me.


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## GoodFriend (Jun 19, 2007)

ngt, check out their mandala #1 strain... it looks scrumptious


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## babygro (Jun 19, 2007)

KushMaster85 said:


> Everything is looking good. No sorry I did not find nething about the light green verses darker. It could be that one of the phenos may require more of some nutrient hence causing the lighter color or just part of the pheno. Please keep us posted.


Thanks KushMaster

Whilst I certainly agree with both yourself and Skunky regarding individual plants needing to be treated as individuals, rather than all the same, I very much doubt that's the cause of the lighter green pheno. It's far more likely to be the genetics of the hybrid, the darker green and wider leaf colour is clearly coming from the Indica in the hybrid which is the dominant leaf trait.

Even with F1 hybrids there's still a fair amount of variety in the phenos and in my opinion the lighter green leaf colour is coming from the Sativa in the hybrid, which is why I'm curious about it.

I'm still awaiting a reply to a mail I sent to Mike at Mandala about it.

Thanks for your input.


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## babygro (Jun 19, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Yes Kush. When you grow from seed it stands to reason that each plant will need to be treated differently. Personally, I don't bother... if the plant aint strong enough then it don't deserve to live anyway.


Skunky

The point you make is a good one. However, many people are extremely reluctant to chuck out slower growing plants when they're paying upwards of 50-60 quid for 10 seeds, particularly when you consider the female to male ratios. It's understandable people are reluctant to do this, however with the Mandala lower prices, it makes it easier to do that and be more ruthless when you consider the lower cost of the seeds.

There's a lot to be said for shunning the over-priced, over-bred and over-hyped genetics pouring out of Holland for honest and straight forward genetics derived from land race strains, grown outdoors in Spain marketed at prices that everyone can afford.

The chances of finding a 'keeper' out of 20 cheap seeds is far greater than one from 10 expensive ones.

Regarding the 'lighter' green Satori pheno, that germinated behind all the others, I'm hoping it's female because if it is, it would make a great mother plant. That lighter green pheno is out-growing all the other plants despite starting behind them all, it's this that makes me wonder if it may be male, it will be a shame if it is because it's so vigourous and fast growing.

It also had by far the best developed rootball of all the plants when I repotted them, no wonder it's growing so quickly.


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## babygro (Jun 19, 2007)

lumberjack_ian said:


> great grow baby!
> 
> actually, it was this journal that made me look into and eventually decide on the mandala seeds as the ones for me next grow... (satori and hashberry for me)
> 
> ...


Cheers L-ian !

Glad to see you decided to try some Mandala genetics, from my own experience of them (not smoked any yet though) they're pretty vigourous growers and seem pretty easy to grow - I don't see any real problems for people growing them.

I think you'll be pleased with the Satori - I've read nothing but goof reports about Satori as a plant and as a smoke. Hashberry I know less about but, I do know that it was listed in the top 10 Strains of 2006 by High Times Magazine I think it was - so it comes with a pretty good pedigree.

The problem with the Mandala Strains is that they all sound so good - it's tough choosing which ones to grow out! It was a little easier for me because I was looking for a Sativa high primarily but in an 'easy to grow' strain and both Satori and Kalichakra both fit that bill. Depending on what they yield and smoke like, I may try a couple of the other Mandala strains in the next grow.

This is my first time growing Mandala Strains, but I've read nothing but good things about both the genetics, the smoke and the breeder - so I'm looking forward to this one.


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## babygro (Jun 19, 2007)

lumberjack_ian said:


> ngt, check out their mandala #1 strain... it looks scrumptious


I have to say I was tempted by Mandala #1, but wanted to grow out the two Sativa 'high' plants first.

That's the good thing about Mandala genetics - there's something for everyone, and all are relatively easy and stress free to grow.

Mandala #1, looks really nice, Sativa up high with Indica yield and growth, very suitable to growing outdoors as it is indoors and can produce lovely purple flowers mid way through flowering coming from the New Zealand Purple Indica.

I don't think you'd be disappointed with that strain!


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## Vr6T (Jun 19, 2007)

Mandala does have a good variety of strains. I'm 2 weeks into my whte satin grow and this low light plant is doing great under my cfl setup


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## babygro (Jun 19, 2007)

Okay update time. Day 43 for most of them popping the soil surface, near the end of the seventh week of vegetative growth.

Repotted all the Satori and Kalichakra into 3 Litre pots today into a mix of 5 parts Moorland MP and 5 parts Westlands MP + JI and 1 part perlite. All soil sieved through a 1/4 inch screen and reconstituted and fluffed up from it's compressed form. I added a teaspoon of Dolomite lime to buffer ph and a teaspoon of calcified seaweed per litre of soil. Watered with 1 drop superthrive per 4L of water and 1.5mil Maxicrop Seaweed extract per 4L of water

No rootgrow this time, that only needs to be applied once and that was done last repot.

So far in terms of nutrient feeding all I've given them is 0.5mil Biobizz grow per L of water a couple of waterings ago and a teasp of epsom salts per L of water.

Due to my space restrictions in my 'grow-room' this is the final repot before I switch to 12/12 in about a weeks time or as soon as they've rooted out these new pots, which I expect will take no more than 4 or 5 days, as soon as that happens I'll switch to 12/12. 

Accepted, 3L pots are a little too small to flower in ideally, but with 8 plants that's all I can fit them into at the moment, and still get them all in the grow room. This is why I'm so 'anal' for want of a better expression about making sure the rootball is correctly developed by starting them out in 1L pots, potting up to 2L pots and then 3L pots - each pot up develops and enlarges the rootball - so important if you're restricted in pot size.

Many of the growers on here who don't have the limited room I have and can pot up into large pots for flowering, have an ideal opportunity to get that rootball correctly developed in the pot ups to that final pot size, but so few of them really bother to do it. 

They go from a tiny 4" 1L pot almost straight into their final flowering pot size of 2-3 gallons, where the tap root will simply grow straight down and out round the bottom, missing out on all that soil, which is wasted.

The plan, is to put them into flowering in their 3L pots and as soon as I know what sex they are (hopefully within 2 weeks) I'll repot the females into 6.5L pots and chuck the males.

The reason you let the plants 'root out' their final pots before switching to 12/12 is because root growth slows considerably in flowering and so you want the most root growth whilst the plant is in veg.

Health wise they're coming nicely, still got the Mg deficiency problems (thanks to my tap water) but I'm keeping that under control. The tallest is now about 11 or 12 inches high so I really need to switch to 12/12 asap really.

As I repotted them and watered them today, they're still looking a little droopy and sorry for themselves, as soon as they've perked up I'll post some pics of them.


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## babygro (Jun 19, 2007)

Vr6T said:


> Mandala does have a good variety of strains. I'm 2 weeks into my whte satin grow and this low light plant is doing great under my cfl setup


hiya Vr6T

Glad to hear you're pleased with your White Satin grow, I'll have to swing by your grow diary if you've got one.


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## SnowWhite (Jun 20, 2007)

Any pics mate?

Sounding good man, it's great you've identified/confirmed your Mg problems....shame you have to re-pot during flower though. But I totally understand your limitations. As I had feminised seeds for my first grow, I did not have to worry about the males and waste good flowering space to indentify them, so my final pots were 15L. Nice! I'm not going to have this luxury on my next grow though as I'll need to root out the males, so I'm actually only going to start with 4 this time. 2 hasberry and 2 Satori. Hoping for 1-3 girls.

As I have my 400W HPS and 2 x 125W red spec enviro's for flowering, I'm going to get excellent light to my plants and hope to achieve much higher yields from each plant individually.

When I harvested my snow white's, I could see that they had so much more potential, If only the lower branches could of had better light. I'm thinking of trying some training next time too. I'm so busy at the moment that I've not had chance to start my Mandala's off yet, but I'm hoping to get them started this weekend. I will be conducting a little soil experiment as well!

Good luck with the rest of your grow dude, may you have lots of girls!! Can't wait to see the progress.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 20, 2007)

Everything sounds as though it is going smoothly at the moment babygro.


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## Bigbud (Jun 20, 2007)

Sup babygrow,

Plants looking great.. I did back track but I didnt see it...what type of light/s are you useing for flowering

What you going to do if by chance if you get more females then you can fit in your space ? do you have a back up


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## babygro (Jun 20, 2007)

SnowWhite said:


> Sounding good man, it's great you've identified/confirmed your Mg problems....shame you have to re-pot during flower though. But I totally understand your limitations. As I had feminised seeds for my first grow, I did not have to worry about the males and waste good flowering space to indentify them, so my final pots were 15L. Nice! I'm not going to have this luxury on my next grow though as I'll need to root out the males, so I'm actually only going to start with 4 this time. 2 hasberry and 2 Satori. Hoping for 1-3 girls.


Cheers SnowWhite

Pics coming up shortly, took some this afternoon - my my they enjoyed their repot and are going crazy now, the tallest are closing in on 12 inches now so I'm going to have to put them in flowering fairly shortly if I don't want their height to get out of hand.

It doesn't really concern me repotting in flowering, if you do it within the first 2-3 weeks you minimise the amount of disruption to the plant and only delay it slightly in its flowering phase.

To be honest with you, I'd start out with more than two of each - your setting yourself up for disappointment only growing out two of each. The more you grow, the more likely you'll get a favourable female/male ratio because that's the way averages work. Sure you could end up with 4 females, you're also just as likely to get 4 males - that's the problem.

I was a bit like you when I first started and only grew out 3 Sensi Stars, I was sweating on getting a female from three and was lucky I did. Grow out as many in veg as your space and resources will handle with the view to getting a 50&#37; female ratio - the more you grow, the more chances of getting females. 

I'm hoping for 4 females out of 8 - my space will handle 4 plants nicely, any more and it's a squeeze, if I get less than 4 I'll be disappointed.


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## babygro (Jun 20, 2007)

OKay some pictures as promised, taken this afternoon.

I think they're doing okay, considering they will be 7 weeks old tommorow and the only nutrients they've so far received apart from the odd dose of epsoms is 0.5 mil per Litre of Biobizz grow at the watering before last.

The 'light green' pheno had developed a huge rootball and is by far the healthiest and vigourous of all the plants - it's rooted out it's pot already!

I've been watching temperatures and humidity carefully and noting it - here's some readings from the past week -

Temperature high/low 
27.5/26 | 26.8/23.6 | 27.4/24.5 | 26.1/23.4 | 25.8/23.4 | 25.1/22.7 | 24.2/22.1

Highest 27.5, lowest 22.1, average high is 26.1, low 23.7 averaging a 2.4 degree difference between lights on and lights off.

RH high/low
69/51 | 55/47 | 57/45 | 61/46 | 62/49 | 66/44 | 61/51

Highest 69, lowest 44, average high 61.57, low 47.5


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## babygro (Jun 20, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Everything sounds as though it is going smoothly at the moment babygro.


Cheers Skunky and I was sorry to hear about your recent misfortune, I hope you get things back on track as soon as.


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## babygro (Jun 20, 2007)

Bigbud said:


> [Plants looking great.. I did back track but I didnt see it...what type of light/s are you useing for flowering


Thanks Bb, I think they're doing okay, just wish I had more space really.

They're currently under a 200w blue Enviro, and last time I flowered under 2 x 200w red enviro's but this time I was hoping to use a 250w Lumatek, but I haven't got it yet so I'll probably switch to flowering with 1 x 200w blue and 1 x 200w red enviro for the first couple of weeks.



Bigbud said:


> What you going to do if by chance if you get more females then you can fit in your space ? do you have a back up


Good question! I guess I'll worry about that when the time comes, but I guess probably keep the ones I can't fit into flowering in Veg in another area and top/fim them to keep the height down until they're ready to go in.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 20, 2007)

babygro said:


> Cheers Skunky and I was sorry to hear about your recent misfortune, I hope you get things back on track as soon as.


Cheers mate. I'm bouncing back already.


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## recvryjst42day (Jun 20, 2007)

really nice BabyGro! They are beaut's!


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## babygro (Jun 22, 2007)

recvryjst42day said:


> really nice BabyGro! They are beaut's!


Thanks recvryjst42day, I'm pleased with how they're progressing, but annoyed about the Mg deficiency my tap water causes.

I'm going to have to invest in an RO machine I think.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 22, 2007)

Any ideas when you're going to start flowering? Have you got your eye on a suitable lady for a mother?

Great pic's by the way. Can't wait to see them in bloom.


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## babygro (Jun 22, 2007)

Update on what's been happening recently. Day 46 from popping and the start of the 8th week of vegetative growth.

They're all happy in their new pots and continuing upward growth nicely. They're getting a little bit too big for my liking now and tommorow I shall take what clones I can (some don't have any meristem lateral side branching so I can't take clones from those) from those with lateral side branching, before I switch them to 12/12.

Yesterday I misted the bottom half of all plants with 0.5mil Seaweed extract and a heaped tsp of epsoms per L of water. I only did the bottom half as they needed to go back under the lights for another couple of hours and I didn't want any direct light on any misted 'top leaves'. I'll mist them all again in another couple of days to try and get this mg def under control.

Foliar feeding epsoms is a faster way of getting Magnesium into the plant than root feeding.

I also put in the second 200w Enviro this evening in readiness to switch to 12/12. At the moment they have 1 x 200w Enviro 6,400k and 1 x 200w 2,700k Enviro. I was hoping to have the 250w Lumatek digital ballast by now, but I haven't, so until I get it I'll continue with the enviro's.

The Satori #1, the plant that started 5 days after all the others (and the lighter leaf pheno) is turning out to be a simply stunning and outstanding plant. It's already outstripping all the others in its growth in terms of height, branching and leaves and the strength and vigor of this plant is amazing. I'm really praying this turns out female, because that one is a keeper mum for sure. This plant is by far the healthiest and vigorous plant I've grown so far. 

In the pics, the Satori #1 is front right in pic 32. Pic 33 shows the Mg def on one of the lower leaves on Satori #1, the other pic shows the other plants on the other side.


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## bulldog (Jun 22, 2007)

Hello Babygro,
Just read through your journal. Nice work so far! You have gone out of your way to document everything and keep us informed. Keep up the good work. I look forward to seeing how your flowering turns out.
Cheers!!!!


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## sk3tch3 (Jun 22, 2007)

babygro said:


> ..... I had an annoying Magnesium deficiency plague that grow mostly due to my hard tap water not working particularly well with Biobizz's Allmix soil.


once i switched to distilled and ro water my sensi star took really well. my well water sucks really bad. iron and maganese. any way those mandala strains are the exact same as my buddy chose for the heat and low smell factors. so i well make sure he pays attention to this grow. thanks for the thread and happy growing


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## babygro (Jun 24, 2007)

Good news for a change!

Been away this weekend and got back to check on the plants to see some are showing sex, some still aren't differentiating though and from what I can see I'd say at least one of the undifferentiated plants is a male from looking at the pre-flowers. Ironically, it's a bit of a relief to see they're not all females - because I started 8 plants in this grow in the hope to get 4 females - I can't really flower many more than 4 or 5 plants at a time in my space.

So, here are the sex determinations and the females are all confimed females with a least one set of pistils currently showing -

Satori No's 1, 3 and 4 are all confirmed females.
Kalichakra No's 1 and 3 are confimed females.

Satori No 2 I'm pretty sure is a male, Kalichakra's No's 2 and 4 are both undifferentiated at this time, ie I can't tell.

The one I'm really pleased about is Satori No1 as I beleive that plant will make an outstanding mother plant.

If they stay as they are I'll be very pleased, I can just about cope with 5 plants in my flowering room.


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## babygro (Jun 24, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Any ideas when you're going to start flowering? Have you got your eye on a suitable lady for a mother?
> 
> Great pic's by the way. Can't wait to see them in bloom.


Cheers Skunky!

When are they going into flowering? They should have gone into flowering about a week ago! I delayed it because I wanted to take clones, which I'll probably do tonight and then get them straight into flowering. The tallest is now about 18 inches tall, so I'm getting a bit 'twitchy' about what height they'll end up as.

Oh yeah, I've been watching Satori #1 now as a possible mother and as you'll see from my previous post, Satori #1 has revealed herself as a female!  So I'm well chuffed about that.

Sorry to see things aren't quite going as planned in your own grow, I'll drop by later.


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## babygro (Jun 24, 2007)

bulldog said:


> Hello Babygro,
> Just read through your journal. Nice work so far! You have gone out of your way to document everything and keep us informed. Keep up the good work. I look forward to seeing how your flowering turns out.
> Cheers!!!!


Thanks Bulldog !

Glad you're enjoying the journal and I'm also looking forward to seeing what they're like in flowering


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## babygro (Jun 24, 2007)

sk3tch3 said:


> once i switched to distilled and ro water my sensi star took really well. my well water sucks really bad. iron and maganese. any way those mandala strains are the exact same as my buddy chose for the heat and low smell factors. so i well make sure he pays attention to this grow. thanks for the thread and happy growing


Cheers sk3tch3, thanks for dropping by.

As you've probably realised, I'm a big fan of Mandala genetics, the breeder has put a lot of work into producing seeds that are not only uniform and homogenous, but ideally suited to clandestine closet grows as all the plants tend to share an ease of growing, high nutrient uptake, hybrid vigour, low smell and high heat and humidity tolerance. Their White Satin also adds in low light requirements as well. 

In my opinion, why do people mess about with expensive dutch genetics that can be tricky and difficult to grow when a newbie or inexperienced grower can probably get far better results from a variety like White Satin that costs probably no more than 20 bucks for 10 seeds? Seems a bit of a no brainer to me.

Regarding RO water, I think I'm going to have to go down that route. I was going to buy a ph and ec truncheon, but I think I'll save my money and get an RO machine and perhaps just a cheapo EC meter instead.


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## GoodFriend (Jun 24, 2007)

plus when you tell someone you just got some kalichakra to smoke you can blow 'em away with something that they haven't heard of prolly (too much white widow, purps, and blueberry going around, it's hard to find other stuff)

baby, do you know if mandala ships to the states?


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## sk3tch3 (Jun 25, 2007)

babygro said:


> Regarding RO water, I think I'm going to have to go down that route. I was going to buy a ph and ec truncheon, but I think I'll save my money and get an RO machine and perhaps just a cheapo EC meter instead.


and thats exactly what i did! 

you are absolutly right on about the mandala, i double checked with my friend and it is the white satin he wants. it is his second indoor and im trying to help him as much as possible. that is why i was so happy to find your thread. everything is coming along nice!


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## newbud (Jun 25, 2007)

Hi there babygro, my first type and want to congrat on your grow. plants look great and never heard of that strain before either! keep up the good work. havent tried ordering seeds but look s like good idea. cheers!!


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## babygro (Jun 29, 2007)

sk3tch3 said:


> and thats exactly what i did!
> 
> you are absolutly right on about the mandala, i double checked with my friend and it is the white satin he wants. it is his second indoor and im trying to help him as much as possible. that is why i was so happy to find your thread. everything is coming along nice!


Hiya sk3tch3

Sorry for the delay replying, been a bit distracted recently.

I think Mandala's White Satin is an excellent choice for a new grower to grow, I wish I'd known about it before I did my first grow.

I've been really impressed with the F1 vigour of these plants although less so about the F1 homogeneity! The height sizes of them go up and down like a fiddlers elbow, my tallest Satori is about a foot taller than my smallest Satori!

I also remember reading somewhere (on Mandala's site) that many people compare the 'taste and stone' of Mandala's genetics to the 'old school' 70's weed taste and high. If that's true, these plants are going to be something quite special I think.

The smell from them is quite lovely, they're in flowering now and the smell still isn't really that strong (it's pretty mild really to be honest) but the wonderful subtle spicey sweet floral musky smells that greet me when I open the door is quite something. The Kalichakra smells slightly different to the Satori and even the different pheno's in the same strain smell slightly different to each other. I have to rub the leaf gently between finger and thumb to get an idea of the smell and they're all subtley different to each other.

I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to smoking these babies!

I've kept clones of all the females, so I can decide after harvesting and smoking which ones I want to turn into mother plants.


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## babygro (Jun 29, 2007)

newbud said:


> Hi there babygro, my first type and want to congrat on your grow. plants look great and never heard of that strain before either! keep up the good work. havent tried ordering seeds but look s like good idea. cheers!!


hiya Newbud

Thanks for stopping by and I'm pleased you're enjoying the journal.

I'd not heard of them before either, but to be honest I'm a little tired of the dutch genetics and fancied trying something a bit different and the Mandala website has excellent information on it.

I have to confess I was seriously considering a strain from an Australian breeder called Wally Duck, which was a Panama Red x Cinderella99 cross, which sounds fabulous. I've only ever heard stories of the legendary Panama Red from friends around at the time it was available and I'd love to try something even nearly close to it.

I was a little put off though by two things - firstly it was fairly expensive about 50 GBP for 10 seeds and that ideally, for best results it should be grown outside which simply isn't possible in my situation. I think you can grow it inside but I don't think it performs terribly well. I'm not adverse to trying a pure Sativa in the future though and I have my eye on some quite special multiple Haze crosses. Haze isn't an easy plant to grow at any time and inside it's simply made more difficult, but I think with the right techniques however even Haze's can be grown inside fairly effectively.

Pure Sativas originate primarily from the tropics and subtropics which had pretty high light levels and this is the reason for the fairly slender Sativa leaf fingers - it doesn't need the big fat wide leaf fingers of the Indica's of India and Pakaistan with their lower light levels.

Inside lower light levels is the first problem to growing pure Sativas, add in their tendency to grow tall very quickly and you get light depth penetration problems. Their fairly long flowering times and low yields also tends to put people off.

Just shove it outside in a nice sunny hot climate and forget it and you're laughing!


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## babygro (Jun 29, 2007)

Day 54 from popping, 6th day from switching to 12/12.

The clones I took on day 49 all seem to be doing well although no roots showing yet. They got their first little feed yesterday, as whilst the Root Riot cubes have some nutrients built in they won't last very long. They got 1 mil Formulex per L and 0.5 mil Seaweed extract per Litre of water. The recommended dosage for Formulex is 5 mil per L! I've also been misting them a couple of times a day.

All the plants had a watering on Day 51 with plain water + 1 tsp Epsom salts per L of water. The Mg problem is continuing but not worsening.

I'm pretty sure now that 3 are definitely males, but I'm just leaving them another couple of days to be 100% sure. I also had to move the light up today which is only the second time I've had to move it so far. The plants are just exploding in growth everyday and the tallest is now over 2 foot and still going, I fully expect some of them to be 3-4 feet in finished size. Hopefully my chamber height can deal with it but the light is already 1/2 way up the chamber!

I'll be happier once the males are out which will give the others a bit more room as it's beginning to get very cramped in there.

Temps are still 20-27 and humidity 40-60.

They're just under 2 weeks now in those size pots and in about a weeks time I'll have to start thinking about potting up to the 6L pots. The next watering I think they may need a little grow and bloom but I'll have to see how they look.


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## sk3tch3 (Jun 30, 2007)

hey there babygrow, i forwardedid your post about the mandala to my buddy and was very happy to read it and told me to tell you thankyou, i know you are using a seaweed feed on your clones but i wanted to suggest nitrozyme, i used it last clonning and was extremley impressed. on day 11 most of the clones had root "systems" entagled in itself. stuff is miracle juice when used as a folier feed. just a suggestion, peace and happy growing.


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## Bigbud (Jun 30, 2007)

Sounding good babygro.. but where are the pics.. ?


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## babygro (Jun 30, 2007)

sk3tch3 said:


> hey there babygrow, i forwardedid your post about the mandala to my buddy and was very happy to read it and told me to tell you thankyou, i know you are using a seaweed feed on your clones but i wanted to suggest nitrozyme, i used it last clonning and was extremley impressed. on day 11 most of the clones had root "systems" entagled in itself. stuff is miracle juice when used as a folier feed. just a suggestion, peace and happy growing.


Cheers sk3tch3, I think your mate is going to be very impressed with his White Satin!

Thanks for the tip on Nitrozyme - I have heard of people getting great results with it, which is why I use Seaweed Extract  As far as I'm concerned the two products are not only doing the same thing, they are the same thing - From Growth Technology -

Nitrozyme, a highly concentrated extract from sea plants, contains a vast array of natural growth enhancers. Nitrozyme has been tested on many commercial crops and has shown outstanding yield increases. 

Nitrozyme contains powerful natural growth enhancers, exotic micro-nutrients and bio-stimulants. The high concentration of these biological agents will potentiate the growth process of the plant, with specific advantage to its current stage of growth. 

If you notice on the bottle it says 100% Organic, which basically means they haven't added any nasty chemical or man made additives to it, which also effectively means it's all sourced from, drum roll.... Seaweed! As far as I'm aware, Seaweed Extract only comes from 1 particular type of seaweed, and I can't really see how Nitrozyme would be any different.

The main difference between what you use - Nitrozyme (£45.00 a litre only available at local Hydro store) and what I use - Maxicrop's Seaweed Extract (£8.00 a Litre from any good Garden Centre) is 37 quid basically !

This is the problem with the current specialist hydro stores, the big Dutch and multi-national nutrient conglomerates like Canna, Biobizz, Advanced Nutrients and Bcuzz and Growth Technology are in business to make money. They've spotted an untapped market for thier products in the 'underground' Canna growing movement and they're looking to exploit it and if that means re-packaging traditionally used organic products such as Seaweed Extract and Molasses into products like Fish Stew and Carbo load and charging 5 times the price for them and get away with it they will.

The fundamental principles of growing fruit and vegetables hasn't really changed since the last war, so why do we suddenly need all these wonderful new fangled products these companies are trying to sell us?

Try Seaweed Extract instead of Nitrozyme and see if you get the same performance, and if you do, you might save yourself some money


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## sk3tch3 (Jun 30, 2007)

babygro said:


> This is the problem with the current specialist hydro stores, the big Dutch and multi-national nutrient conglomerates like Canna, Biobizz, Advanced Nutrients and Bcuzz and Growth Technology are in business to make money. They've spotted an untapped market for thier products in the 'underground' Canna growing movement and they're looking to exploit it and if that means re-packaging traditionally used organic products such as Seaweed Extract and Molasses into products like Fish Stew and Carbo load and charging 5 times the price for them and get away with it they will.
> 
> The fundamental principles of growing fruit and vegetables hasn't really changed since the last war, so why do we suddenly need all these wonderful new fangled products these companies are trying to sell us?
> 
> Try Seaweed Extract instead of Nitrozyme and see if you get the same performance, and if you do, you might save yourself some money


you are absolutly right in all respects.... it took the "hydro man" selling me the product and a great indepth detaild explanation and over view of the active ingredients from you to enlighten me. the grow craze is pretty out of control and hopefully will quiet down soon. 

and i will be saving me some money next time!


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## babygro (Jun 30, 2007)

sk3tch3 said:


> and i will be saving me some money next time!


Give it a go and see how you like it, you've got nothing to lose really!


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## babygro (Jun 30, 2007)

Bigbud said:


> Sounding good babygro.. but where are the pics.. ?


You want some pics Bb, here you go! The 5 day old clones.

To be honest, the big plants aren't really doing anything interesting at the moment apart from going upwards rapidly, in a week or so when the buds start to form I'll do a few more pics, hopefully the males will be gone by then too.


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## bulldog (Jun 30, 2007)

Hello Babygro,
The seaweed extract sounds interesting. Would it beneficial for flowering plants?
Thanks for the info,
Bulldog


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## nongreenthumb (Jun 30, 2007)

Wow those clones are a bit large


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## babygro (Jun 30, 2007)

nongreenthumb said:


> Wow those clones are a bit large


How do you mean NGT ?


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## sk3tch3 (Jun 30, 2007)

i just transplanted these yesterday,... itake the cuttings at the same place


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## babygro (Jun 30, 2007)

sk3tch3 said:


> i just transplanted these yesterday,... itake the cuttings at the same place


Looking good - what strain?


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## nongreenthumb (Jun 30, 2007)

Just compared to how i take them.

I leave the top and one fan leaf only per plant. I was told that this is the way to go as they take quicker because you have less plant matter to try and keep alive until the roots have formed. I plant them upto the fan leaf.


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## sk3tch3 (Jun 30, 2007)

those are all sensi star @ 14 days exactly. 

you got ngt that is the best way, but when i take 50 clones at a time by meyself, at 2.00 in the morning, i get lazy. i cut and put in a bowel of room temp water and superthrive. when the bowel is full. about 10 cuttings, i have two shot glasses of root hormone, dip n grow. place the 10 or so cuttings in the two glasses and take my next cuts. when those are in the bath, i put the cuttings from the root hormone to the plug. easy process just super time consuming. 

luckily sensi star is an easy strain to clone for the most part. i think my hassan (afghan) will give me troubles.


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## babygro (Jun 30, 2007)

nongreenthumb said:


> Just compared to how i take them.
> 
> I leave the top and one fan leaf only per plant. I was told that this is the way to go as they take quicker because you have less plant matter to try and keep alive until the roots have formed. I plant them upto the fan leaf.


Ahh okay I'm with you. Yeah I agree you should take off as much foliage as you can get away with. I like to leave a couple of sets of leaves and the growing shoot, as I think they grow best that way for when they do finally root. But I agree, if the plant struggles with all the foliage I'll take off another set of leaves, but I prefer to leave them on if I can. I also don't mind the long bit of stem as when I repot I pot most of that stem up to the soil and about an inch from the first set of leaves.


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## sk3tch3 (Jun 30, 2007)

i get impatient, i have a tendency to "pull up" cuttings to check on the progression. i started leaving the leaves intact, when they fade yellow or brownish i know my roots are setting and they are wanting food, and not just water.


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## babygro (Jun 30, 2007)

sk3tch3 said:


> those are all sensi star @ 14 days exactly.


Sensi Stars, cool! That was what I grew out last time. Stinks to high heaven even in Veg, these Mandala's don't stink anything like as bad as SS did even in flowering!

How do you like the SS stone? I've been smoking it for a few months now and it might be that I'm just tired of it or a bit toleranced to it, but I don't find it mashes me as much as it did in the early days. What I do find about it though is that it's a big 'creeper', it almost has a 1/2 hour delayed reaction, and you're happily puffing away on your third joint and WHAM! The first one you had catches up with you!

Also, people go on about SS being almost a one hit wonder, I don't find that at all and whilst it can easily put you to sleep after a while I don't find it all that strong. It's just a bit too heavy in the Indica for me.


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## babygro (Jun 30, 2007)

sk3tch3 said:


> i get impatient, i have a tendency to "pull up" cuttings to check on the progression. i started leaving the leaves intact, when they fade yellow or brownish i know my roots are setting and they are wanting food, and not just water.


Not everyones churning out as many clones as you are though! So, some of your 'short cuts' are fine really considering the quantity you're cloning. When you're doing fewer clones and only one of each female like I am, you want to make sure each clones survives, so you're a little more careful I guess.

You sogging the SS?


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## MajoR_TokE (Jun 30, 2007)

Nice journal babygro! Thanx for sharing, i can't wait to see some bud shots.


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## sk3tch3 (Jun 30, 2007)

yeah i am going SOG again... next time around will have mr nice and the perps in my journal, also hassan. im not sure on the growing style of these plants so it will be somewhat of an expirement to see which two strains will best be grown together for a more uniform canopy. 

your right on about the high from SS. its really really nice.... at first. the last time i harvested it i waited a few days ithink 67 days but im not sure exactly, and that helped, the problem i think is, is the tolerence issue. i smoke a lot and SS doesnt hold up against my tolerence like say, romulan, or master kush. it literaly takes a few days before i have to switch up strains so im not wasting weed. .5 grams to my head in one session is more then enough. when i get to the point where i need more i switch it up. also too indica foro me as well. i like the taste and smell though, not citrusy but lemon tones, i used a lot of molasses so the nugz are super sticky and sweet. really sweet. the only thing i dont like about the SS is the tolerence issue, and is a whimp when it comes to nutes, which saves money in the long run. but for a first time indoor grower, it was deff a great strain to learn with. so much was learned through this strain alone i cant begain to tell you/.


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## nongreenthumb (Jun 30, 2007)

It always good to grow more than one variety at once, have a stock of them all 

I want all the strains and varieties sitting in mason jars. I'd love a wine cellar for weed. Oh yes old bean whats the vintage on this one. Oh its a white rhino circa 2006, oh yes that was a good year for it if i do say so or what about the jack the ripper circa 2009. Yes that was pretty special wasnt it. Why dont we just crack open a few and have weed tasting afternoon. Yes jeeves that sounds good.

Sorry for the rant lol


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## sk3tch3 (Jun 30, 2007)

no not a bother a-tall,i rather enjoyed it ol boy!


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## sk3tch3 (Jun 30, 2007)

i know what you mean though and i dream about it.


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## nongreenthumb (Jun 30, 2007)

I think since i started growing it, i have become increasingly obsessed with it. Always reading and learning.


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## MRbudsmoker (Jun 30, 2007)

nice one babygrow. One of the best threads/ journals i've seen!!! can't wait till you get some bud shots!! how tall you think they will end up being and the time span roughly from start to finish???


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## sk3tch3 (Jun 30, 2007)

nongreenthumb said:


> I think since i started growing it, i have become increasingly obsessed with it. Always reading and learning.


obsession doesnt quite cover it. its beyond an obsession. i dont know what it is about this damn plant


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## babygro (Jul 1, 2007)

MajoR_TokE said:


> Nice journal babygro! Thanx for sharing, i can't wait to see some bud shots.


Cheers tokey

Thanks for stopping by, I'm looking forward to seeing the bud shots too !


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## GoodFriend (Jul 1, 2007)

what kinda yeild you hoping for each? what it says on the site they got (they test yeild in a 1 square meter flower room SOG style with a 400w HPS)

the satori is a huge yielder at 550-600 grams dried (in that m^2 setup)

with the kalichakra at 500- 550 grams

and like you guys, i' m excited to see it flower!!!

good luck bg


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## babygro (Jul 1, 2007)

sk3tch3 said:


> yeah i am going SOG again... next time around will have mr nice and the perps in my journal, also hassan. im not sure on the growing style of these plants so it will be somewhat of an expirement to see which two strains will best be grown together for a more uniform canopy.


I think SS is well suited to SOG, it grows quite a big main cola, doesn't get too tall and not too many side branches. I think I've got a great Satori Mother, ideally suited to SOG and I may well end up doing a SOG grow next time round.

Your experiences with the SS high are similar to my own. It is a very tasty weed, It's difficult to describe the taste of it but it's just kind of nice! The high is as you said. I think one of the problems with it (and typical of dominant Indicas) is that it has a ceiling on the high, which effectively means once you reach that ceiling you won't go any higher no matter how much more you smoke.

It was good to grow the Sensi Star and I learnt a lot from doing it but it's not a strain I'm in any hurry to grow out again. I will do though, because I think it takes several grows to really understand how a plant grows and what it's nutrient requirements are and I'm not sure you always do a new strain justice in only growing it once. I'm happy at the moment though to experiment a little with the Satori's and Kalichakras I'm currently growing particularly considering the nice variety of phenos I've got from them. 

The Satori phenos are all quite different and vary considerably in height. The smallest (12-14 inches tall) clearly expresses the Indica squat bushy fat fingered leaf characteristics. The one in the middle (the potential mother plant and last Satori to pop) at about 16-18 inches tall sits between the smallest and tallest, and expresses a mixture of Indica and Sativa traits. The two biggest things going for this one is the sheer vigor and fast growth potential as well as it's very strong and quick growing side shoots for clones. The tallest is classical Sativa, tall slim and slender narrow fingered leaves, currently standing at about 2 feet tall.

I'll obviously smoke test the three of them, but fully expect the first to express the most Indica, the tallest the most Sativa and the one in the middle hopefully the best of both worlds.

Regarding the flowering times of my Sensi Stars, I can tell you exactly what day I chopped the seed plant and the two clones -

The recommended flowering time for SS is 56-63 days. I chopped the seed plant at day 62. The clones at day 59.

So I chopped the clones 3 days earlier than the seed plants and that was to try and get more of an 'up' high from it, I think I allowed too many cloudy trichs to turn amber on both of them.


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## sk3tch3 (Jul 2, 2007)

this time around it will be 55 days. im going to cram as many out of 34 that i can i my 5 by 8 grow room. 2 gallon pots with soil on saucers, i will hand water so i will need to leave room to walk around, i stuck them under my 400watt MH today. im doing a lil expirement for fun. half i am bottem watering and the other half through the top, folier feeding with nitrozyme on bothsee which take faster, im thinking the bootem feed.what do you think?. i want to try to get them set before they go under the thousie. prolly a few days then i will veg for another few days under the thousie. then i will have my other thousie and ventilation installed and will transplant out of those keg cups and into their 2 gallon pots and veg for one more day, i will be folier feeding with nitrozyme through that time, then 12/12 for 55 days, im trying to get 2lbs this go around. going with mostly fox farm, . i will include that grow in my journal so you can check it out if you want. i will take pics tomorrow of the out door SS i have flowering right now. i fed yesterday with open seasme, grow big (needed some nitrogen) and molasses. they are looking awesome. 

SS is not my first choice in strains but it was readily availibel at the time and i needed something to get started. i would suggest it to anyone growing their first time, but i think most coneseuers would like maybe a SS x WW. i wanted to cross it with my mr nice but she is a she. i thought my buddy would get a male since he has 11 and he got all females. so not im waiting to see if one of my perps is a male but so far out of 5 i know 3 are female ??? go figure. good news is i got my mothers finest seed to crack yesterday. im super stoked. if it is a make i will cross it with SS and do a journal...

i guess what im saying is i like the SS but would prolly appreciate it more if there was another strain to compliment her.

maybe you should grew out another one and do a cross with one of your mandala strains. that would be nice!


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## loveisallyouneed (Jul 2, 2007)

Nice work babygro, great journal. Bookmarking this baby for sure.


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## skunkushybrid (Jul 2, 2007)

sk3tch3 said:


> this time around it will be 55 days. im going to cram as many out of 34 that i can i my 5 by 8 grow room. 2 gallon pots with soil on saucers, i will hand water so i will need to leave room to walk around, i stuck them under my 400watt MH today. im doing a lil expirement for fun. half i am bottem watering and the other half through the top, folier feeding with nitrozyme on bothsee which take faster, im thinking the bootem feed.what do you think?. i want to try to get them set before they go under the thousie. prolly a few days then i will veg for another few days under the thousie. then i will have my other thousie and ventilation installed and will transplant out of those keg cups and into their 2 gallon pots and veg for one more day, i will be folier feeding with nitrozyme through that time, then 12/12 for 55 days, im trying to get 2lbs this go around. going with mostly fox farm, . i will include that grow in my journal so you can check it out if you want. i will take pics tomorrow of the out door SS i have flowering right now. i fed yesterday with open seasme, grow big (needed some nitrogen) and molasses. they are looking awesome.
> 
> SS is not my first choice in strains but it was readily availibel at the time and i needed something to get started. i would suggest it to anyone growing their first time, but i think most coneseuers would like maybe a SS x WW. i wanted to cross it with my mr nice but she is a she. i thought my buddy would get a male since he has 11 and he got all females. so not im waiting to see if one of my perps is a male but so far out of 5 i know 3 are female ??? go figure. good news is i got my mothers finest seed to crack yesterday. im super stoked. if it is a make i will cross it with SS and do a journal...
> 
> ...


Hey, when you get it up and running. Please be kind enough to pm me a link. I would be interested to look into one of your grows.


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## babygro (Jul 2, 2007)

Quck update on the clones really. Day 8 from taking clones. It's actually day 7, but the clocks just turned over so it's day 8 

I watered all the clones on day 4 from taking them with 1mil Formulex, (recommended 5.0 mil per L, and Formulex is specially developed for clones and seedlings) 0.5mil Seaweed Extract per Litre of water. Continued to mist them and keep the humidity dome on.

On day 6, I noticed the first of the roots beginning to form outside the Root Riot cube. The pictures of the roots are shown and those pics were taken today. The humidity dome is still on and they'll be due another watering tommorow.

I'd like to think it was my wonderful cloning technique and feeding that's produced the roots so quickly, but I rather suspect it's much more to do with the vigor of the genetics. The Sensi Star clones I took, took exactly 14 days to show roots according to my Grow Diary - these did it in 6. 

I'm sure the Seaweed Exract also helped Sk3tch3 

If there's any interest in a detailed account of my cloning technique, I'd be more than happy to share it.

Enjoy the pics and I'll try and answer any unanswered posts in here tommorow.


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## JonnyBlunt88 (Jul 2, 2007)

I just took BB clones and they look good so far, but you can never tell until they die.  It was my first time so ill just tell you what I did. First I soaked 1" rockwool cubes in distilled water for about 5 hours. drained the cubes and preped my humidity dome and heatpad. I cut the cubes in half so they stay warm. I took 2 cuttings each from the bottom internodes of my 3 best girls. I had to cut them at the base because they were not that long. Once I cut them, I gave them an extra 1/4 inch slit for better rooting, dipped them, then stuck em in the rockwool. Its been 2 days so hopefully they 

There is a fuzzy pic of them in my journal here. Is there any flaws in my method that you might see. Im sure you have done this a few more times than me.


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## sk3tch3 (Jul 3, 2007)

babygro said:


> .....with 1mil Formulex, (recommended 5.0 mil per L, and Formulex is specially developed for clones and seedlings) ........roots beginning to form outside the Root Riot cube. ...


do you have info on the formulex you can share wtih us? please?



babygro said:


> .....I'd like to think it was my wonderful cloning technique and feeding that's produced the roots so quickly, but I rather suspect it's much more to do with the vigor of the genetics. The Sensi Star clones I took, took exactly 14 days to show roots according to my Grow Diary - these did it in 6. ...


no babygro it is was you and your undeniable love for these plants!


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## nongreenthumb (Jul 3, 2007)

Formulex is a lighter balanced one part nutrient, its chemical based and is good for a mist mix or for a straight feed for young plants, it is ph buffered and lowers the ph of the water really well, I only add a small amount and it drops the ph from 7.5 to about 6/6.2


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## sk3tch3 (Jul 3, 2007)

see why i like this site!


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## skunkushybrid (Jul 3, 2007)

nongreenthumb said:


> Formulex is a lighter balanced one part nutrient, its chemical based and is good for a mist mix or for a straight feed for young plants, it is ph buffered and lowers the ph of the water really well, I only add a small amount and it drops the ph from 7.5 to about 6/6.2


 
Ah, something new for me to buy.

Babygro, did you do anything differently at all? Are these just showing a tiny root?


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## nongreenthumb (Jul 3, 2007)

I picked up a 1 litre bottle of the stuff not too long ago, 6 quid for a litre and you dont need to put that much in, at first i was expecting it to be watered down grow nutes, but i guess its all in the formulation and you dont need to put that much in. I'm using it as feed on the super skunk seedlings at a rate of 5ml per litre. They seem to be loving it and are all a beautiful colour.


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## skunkushybrid (Jul 3, 2007)

It sounds a little like superthrive.


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## nongreenthumb (Jul 3, 2007)

Formulex is more of a stand alone nutrient though, you could use only formulex on them as a nutrient and they would be really healthy.

Growth technology who make formulex also have a product called super drive which is more like super thrive.


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## skunkushybrid (Jul 3, 2007)

Ah, I have used an advanced nutrients product very similar, back when i first started cloning... which is why I can't remember the name of it now. I just remember that it smelt quite bad. Definitely helps clones root quicker.

Now i don't use any kind of rooting hormone. I suppose i could be losing a day or two on time, but who's counting?


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## babygro (Jul 3, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Ah, I have used an advanced nutrients product very similar, back when i first started cloning... which is why I can't remember the name of it now. I just remember that it smelt quite bad. Definitely helps clones root quicker.


Hiya Skunky

Thanks to NGT, he's pretty much filled you in on Formulex. Just to add a few comments, it's basically as he said - a chemical based weak full nutrient formulation. It's quite versatile too, as I have it for feeding clones, you can also use it on seedlings and as part of a weak nutrient flush for soil too.

As it's chemical based it's immediately available for plant uptake. It's the only time I use a chemical nutrient as I prefer to grow organically or as close to organic as I can. But for clones it's ideal for just giving them enough nutrients at the first water as the nutrients in the Root Riot cubes begin to be used up. I only start using it at 20% recommended dose, if I see any fading or yellowing I increase it.

Growth Technology make Formulex and in my opinion are a pretty decent company who make cost competitive products at the lower end of the market. I personally wouldn't use their nutrients for mature plants as I use the Biobizz range of organic nutrients, but for beginners who want to simplify things and not get involved in soil microbiology and organic processes, their range of chemical based nutrients are decent quality at a decent price. They come in hard and soft water versions as well, presumably the hard water version being weaker than the other. They'll never be as good as good organics, but for people on a budget they offer good value. They also make Clonex rooting gel that I use and also the Nitrozyme that Sk3th3 uses.

As NGT pointed out, Formulex is pretty cheap too, hard to go wrong with a bottle of that to be honest it has so many useful uses.


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## babygro (Jul 3, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Babygro, did you do anything differently at all? Are these just showing a tiny root?


The only thing I did differently this time was to use the Seaweed Extract! I'd been using it at potting on, as an ocassional root and foliar feed as well, but not on the clones. It's only really recently that I've come to realise and understaand all of the benefits of Seaweed Exctract. I was aware of some of them, like it's stress relieving properties at potting on, but I never thought to use it on clones.

Interestingly, recently I was watching a cookery program and they were talking about seaweed, but I was only half listening. My attention popped up when they mentioned that seaweed contains powerful growth hormones and as an example he mentioned that seaweed grows at about a foot a day! Apparently adapting this fast growth via evolution in order to hang on to rocks and float on the sea surface.

It was then that I realised how useful it would be for clones - if it contains growth hormones then perhaps it might speed up rooting as well. Plus seaweed extract has loads of nice minerals, vitamins and trace elements as well as quite small quantities of NPK as well.


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## skunkushybrid (Jul 3, 2007)

babygro said:


> The only thing I did differently this time was to use the Seaweed Extract! I'd been using it at potting on, as an ocassional root and foliar feed as well, but not on the clones. It's only really recently that I've come to realise and understaand all of the benefits of Seaweed Exctract. I was aware of some of them, like it's stress relieving properties at potting on, but I never thought to use it on clones.
> 
> Interestingly, recently I was watching a cookery program and they were talking about seaweed, but I was only half listening. My attention popped up when they mentioned that seaweed contains powerful growth hormones and as an example he mentioned that seaweed grows at about a foot a day! Apparently adapting this fast growth via evolution in order to hang on to rocks and float on the sea surface.
> 
> It was then that I realised how useful it would be for clones - if it contains growth hormones then perhaps it might speed up rooting as well. Plus seaweed extract has loads of nice minerals, vitamins and trace elements as well as quite small quantities of NPK as well.


Cheers mate. informative as usual. I'm going to buy some tomorrow as i have to pick up some cubes.


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## nongreenthumb (Jul 3, 2007)

I bet you got more nute bottles than plants now mr kush hybrid


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## skunkushybrid (Jul 3, 2007)

nongreenthumb said:


> I bet you got more nute bottles than plants now mr kush hybrid


This is the only hobby I've ever had. Definitely worth spending my money on. My nute selection is still growing, although i have taken 16 clones recently so the plants just have the edge.


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## nongreenthumb (Jul 3, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> This is the only hobby I've ever had. Definitely worth spending my money on. My nute selection is still growing, although i have taken 16 clones recently so the plants just have the edge.


Is that hobby or obsession. Everytime i go to a hydro shop i always come out with twice as much as i went in for. My trainers I wear now are currently falling apart, the mrs says to me, you need some more go and buy some, I say no i cant afford to spend money on trainers, these are still ok, but its quite acceptable to look for things to spend on with hydro. I went out to get some rockwool propagation cubes today, cubes cost 5 quid but still spend 40. The cubes were all i really needed.


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## skunkushybrid (Jul 3, 2007)

Yeah, fuck, you hearing that? We have an angry storm brewing here.


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## nongreenthumb (Jul 3, 2007)

Hasnt reached us down here yet. Sun is still out here but i have felt the odd drop of rain earlier.


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## babygro (Jul 3, 2007)

MRbudsmoker said:


> nice one babygrow. One of the best threads/ journals i've seen!!! can't wait till you get some bud shots!! how tall you think they will end up being and the time span roughly from start to finish???


Thanks MRbudsmoker glad you like it.

Tall, well the tallest at the moment is about 2.5-2.75 foot, the smallest I guess is about 18 inches tall. It's only just at the beginning of the second week of flowering too, so they've still got another 1-2 weeks to continue stretching - I hope they don't get much taller! I'm going to have to move the lights at some point today. 

Time span, I can tell you almost exactly how long they'll be. At the moment they're all about 57 days from popping the soil surface and day 8 of flowering. So that basically means I vegged them for 49 days. I'm expecting the Satori to take between days 65-70 of flowering or days 115 - 120 total. The Kalichakra much the same except it finishes a couple of days earlier.

So about 120 days from popping the soil surface to harvest, so that's about 4 months basically, so you could say I'm pretty much half way there now.


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## babygro (Jul 3, 2007)

lumberjack_ian said:


> what kinda yeild you hoping for each? what it says on the site they got (they test yeild in a 1 square meter flower room SOG style with a 400w HPS)
> 
> the satori is a huge yielder at 550-600 grams dried (in that m^2 setup)
> 
> ...



Hiya Ian

To be honest I never start a grow out with a final yield harvest amount in mind that I want to achieve. I simply try and grow the plants to the best of my ability and as long as they stay healthy and I don't make any major mistakes (which I haven't yet) they'll yield whatever they yield. If I achieve 2 ounces dried or more from each plant I shall be very pleased. I fully expect them to yield more, but if you're getting 2 ozs per plant in my mind you're doing pretty well.

That's what I achieved from my previous seed plant, but that was Indica dominant and didn't get much over 18 inches to 2 feet tall. The two clones I flowered after it, yielded about an oz each, I never weighed it, it's judgement only it looked about the same as the previous one 2 clones at 1oz each.

Satori and Kalichakra are rated as quite high yielders, but whilst that's obviously an advantage it wasn't the primary reason for growing them out. In my mind, strains should be selected on a variety and range of characteristics of which yield is only one factor.

I do intend to grow them in the style best designed for high yield - SOG next time around so it will be interesting to see the total and final yield numbers for both the seed plants and the clone SOG plants.

The main difference between growing from seed and growing from clone SOG style is mainly that growing from seed you need to veg them for a lot longer to get the yields up to where they should be. Also, seed plants ideally should be vegged for at least 6-8 weeks or until they reach sexual maturity before putting them into flowering. This is the most natural process for the plant - it shows preflowers pretty much when its ready to flower and that happens at sexual maturity. 

It's no accident or coincidence that I vegged my plants for about 8 weeks or until they started showing preflowers - it was consiously done.

The other point to bear in mind is that clones take on the biological age of the mother. So if the mother plant is 8 weeks old, the clone taken from it also becomes 8 weeks old, so that clone is effectively already at sexual maturity - and the need to veg it for longer now no longer exists except for yield purposes. The importance of this isn't just because it's the most 'natural' time for the plant to be flowered, or for yield, but because the plant produces more Cannabinoids the older it becomes. ie a 3 month old plant will contain and produce more Cannabinoids than a 1 month or 2 month old plant.

So with clones the two main problems associated with seed plants are avoided - they're already at sexual maturity and therefore already ready to be flowered pretty much as soon as they've rooted out. However, flowering clones with little or no veg time is going to substantially reduce their size, height and root mass and thus also their final yield in comparison to seed plants vegged for up to 8 weeks.

To get around this the SOG style was developed. Sea of Green effectively means flowering lots of small plants (12-24 inches) rather than less bigger seed plants. Because you're flowering lots of little plants - they can take up the same space as fewer bigger plants - yet still produce a comparable yield per m2 as bigger seed plants. 

It works on the principle that the top half of the plant produces the most buds and if you keep the height of the plant small, you can get more effective light penetration for the top 1/2 - 3/4 of the plant than you can with a tall seed plant where most of the bottom half of the plant receives so little light it only produces popcorn buds.

As you can see, clones are ideally suited to SOG growing and for many is the most cost effective method for producing good quality bud at decent yields but without the added veg time seed plants require to yield the same.


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## babygro (Jul 3, 2007)

Okay very quick update.

I actually took some pics today but didn't get round to getting them out of the camera, I'll try and post them tommorow. Had to raise the lights again today, tallest is about 2.5 foot now I guess, I hope they stop soon!

Clones needed another watering today and I noticed one of the leaf tips just beginning to yellow so I upped the Formulex dose by 0.5ml, to 1.5ml per L, but I'm not sure it'll be enough. They also got another 0.5ml of seaweed per L as well. Roots are starting to go crazy now, going to have to pot them up in a day or so I think.

Males are gone now - all 3 were confirmed as males and I took them out of the grow room a couple of days ago but didn't get round to getting rid of them till tonight. I wanted to free up space for the other plants asap really. From memory they were Kalichakra 2 and 4 and Satori 2.


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## sk3tch3 (Jul 7, 2007)

hey there babygro how be it. you must not be a yankee cause i have looked everywhere for formulex and cant find a retailer in my area. will a company in uk ship it to me? im in killa cali. 

how is foumulex compared to luquid karma (formula, uses). i went with that cause i couldnt find it. 

stop by my journal and say hi! i have pics of my outdoor SS. about 30days left i think


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## babygro (Jul 7, 2007)

Hiya Sk3tch3!

I'm getting behind on my updates really particularly the pics. I've still got pics to upload from the previous update.

Formulex is made by Growth Technology (Growth Technology) and I believe they have an American distributor, check them out. Any product that virtually does the same thing would be fine - a weak full chemical nutrient solution.

Pleased to report that all 3 Satori's and all 2 Kali's have started flowering. The Kalichakra's and 1 Satori haven't stopped stretching and at about a metre tall, I've only got about 18 inches or so of height left to play with!

Repotted the clones a day or so ago and they're doing fine too.

I've been doing a bit of 'Sherlock Holmesing' in the last couple of days as I was browsing down a genetics list and a strain/hybrid very much caught my eye. Senor Garcia from Reeferman Seeds is a hybrid I'm seriously thinking of growing out next. I've been interested in Panama Red for a long time and as it's not available as a 'true breeding line' the next best thing is a hybrid with some of it in. Enter Senor Garcia, a hybrid of Panama Red and Oregon Purple Thai! This has to be some knockout smoke, but it was the origins of the Oregon Purple Thai I was interested in, as I've already done plenty of research on Panama Red.

It turns out the Oregon Purple Thai is a DJ Shorts hybrid made from a Lowland/Highland Oaxacan and a Chocolate Thai - the Chocolate Thai giving it it's odd occasional mutant/growth disorder but keeping the stone and high. It comes as no surprise to me at all that the Oregon Purple Thai was bred originally by DJ Shorts and I also beleive Blueberry has a fair amount of Oregon Purple Thai in it as well, hence the odd growth behavior of some of the original 'Blueberry'.

Reeferman has some really interesting strain/hybrid/genetics on his list and it's not really a seed breeder I've paid much attention to, but if some of its parental stock comes directly from DJ Shorts - it can't be all that bad.

A couple of small budding shots to keep everyone happy !


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## sk3tch3 (Jul 7, 2007)

i say go for it. i love all those strains mentioned and the PRxOPT sounds unbettable. my buddy who runs my local shop said it was not in his distributors catalouge and, not that i didnt believe him but i looked for myself. the only way i can get it is if someone ships it to me. he cant buy it from his supplier for some stupid reason. but if the chemistry of it is similar to a full bodied nute, just weaker then i will go with that. im using liquid karma, how do they compare, is there something in the formulex that is not in liquid karma? are they completly different, am i just way off track? i feel that way sometimes. what would be something i can get if the liquid karma is missing something or completly different all together, that will compare to formulex? 

for the past SOG grows i have relied on "size" of the plant. im learning more and more its all about under the soil line. i got microbe colinizing fungi ima use before they get xplanted. i really want the week inbetween rooting and flower to be all about the roots and colinization. next time im going to skip the keg cups alltogether and go straight to the flower container from rooting. i couldnt do it this time cause i only have one light and all those plants wont fit under one light unless they were in keg cups.


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## babygro (Jul 13, 2007)

Found this on another site and it amused me somewhat -

I've recently harvested my first mandala plant. A kalichakra, and now i have a perma-grin!
Kalichakra is awasome weed!!
5 days ago i chopped it down. I know that that is nowhere enough time to dry let alone cure, but i wanted it and that was that. I tried a few early buds and knew what to expect. A happy upbeat high that make you wanna do stuff. Anyway i let the plant finish properly and i could only wait 5 days. I rolled one.
Loved it. smiled. I was stoned. I was "soaring happy" for quite some time. Now this is new to me. I've been doing bho and bubble hash exclusively for the last few months,, in excess. My tollerance is extremely high. So when i say stoned i'm suprised.
So i broke down and rolled two more. Usually after getting high for the first time each day the rest (5-6 times) aren't realy anything to look foward to. So I smoked one and about 3/4 of the way i was stoned again! Omg! I went to put it down but i couldn't i wanted to see how stoned i could get so i finished it and sparked another.
To make a long story short. I spent the last 20 min stumbling my fingers accross this keyboared. My face hurts from smiling and laughing. I cant remember being this "blissed out" ever.
This is my first long winded, rambling post i have ever ever made. I blame it on the best dope i have smoked in a long time. All I wanted to do was thank mike for the great genetics at incredible prices.


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## skunkushybrid (Jul 14, 2007)

babygro said:


> Found this on another site and it amused me somewhat -
> 
> I've recently harvested my first mandala plant. A kalichakra, and now i have a perma-grin!
> Kalichakra is awasome weed!!
> ...


 
Go hit those boards in the spirituality forums babygro, or toke n talk. I've never seen you in there, at least I can't remember it. Good to see you back again babygro, I was starting to wonder where you'd got to.


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## sk3tch3 (Jul 14, 2007)

i had a smile on face the hole time just reading that post


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## babygro (Jul 15, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Go hit those boards in the spirituality forums babygro, or toke n talk. I've never seen you in there, at least I can't remember it. Good to see you back again babygro, I was starting to wonder where you'd got to.


Heya Skunky

I'm still around mate, but been really busy with real life recently and any spare time I have had has gone into the plants, the updates of which are now very overdue.

The clones are coming on nicely but easily outgrowing their little temporary home so I'm going to have to move them shortly. I'm planning on turning them into 'bonsai mums' which I'll document on here which should be interesting.

The main plants are going great, not at the end of the third week of flowering yet and they're already starting to spew out resin on the surrounding leaves  man these plants are vigorous! I think they're pretty much at the end of their stretch now, just as well really as I only have another foot of headroom left!

I've also got the RO machine now, so looking forward to hooking that up sometime next week and banishing that dreaded Mg problem I've been plagued with for good.

To be honest with you, I'm way too busy now with the Rollipedia copy writing and occasionally helping people out with their problems to spend much time in Toke N Talk or Spirituality, although I am looking to reduce down my 'problem solving' posts because I feel I'm basically wasting my time. People don't listen, nor do they value the information I give them, best to let the 'know it all's of the board hand out their wrong advice, because I'm now really weary of the constant battle I have to get simple points across. 

I'm also tired of all the poor advice I see people hand out, but it doesn't seem to stop - so best to let people get on with it I'm afraid. Sadly its the users who'll suffer the most, but hey, not my problem.

That's the problem when you hand out FREE advice to someone - they simply don't value it and opinions I'm afraid are like assholes - unfortunately - everyone has one, but most newbies here struggle to differentiate between good advice and poor.

Hope to get more pics and more updates and answer a few outstanding posts in this thread sometime next week.


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## skunkushybrid (Jul 15, 2007)

Looking forward to the bonsai moms that will be very interesting.

There are always plenty of people willing to help out the newb's. I pop in myself from time to time but the repetitiveness does get tiring.

Good to see things running smoothly.


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## SnowWhite (Jul 16, 2007)

Hey BG, I'm looking forward to the pics of your girls 3 weeks into flowering mate!

I know what you mean about being busy with real life, it really takes over sometimes eh!? 

Love the idea of your bonsai Mum btw, I hadn't even thought about that to be honest. My veg cupboard is really too small to maintain a decent Mum......I was thinking of how I could create a bigger space, but maybe Bonsai Weed is the way to go .....Can't wait to see how this works for you. Good luck!


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## morp (Jul 16, 2007)

seen a few bonsai mums on another forum, looks like an interesting twist to growing. i hear theyre relatively hard to maintain due to the roots being bound in small pots, making watering and feeding a delicate matter. however you clearly have good, adaptable knowledge of the plants requirements and i wage that youll pull it off.

good luck with the restof this grow and i look forward to hearing about your bonsai...


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## jimbo_jim (Jul 16, 2007)

i've heard bonsai mums arent too hard to maintain. They need to be trimmed regularly but if you're taking clones, job done.
The roots only need to be trimmed bout 2 times a year taking around 1.5 inches of the sides and bottom abd then re-plant but bury the stalk more, and give them water as normal and only nutes once a month


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## babygro (Jul 16, 2007)

Finally got the RO machine up and running and gave the first plants a watering with 50/50 RO water and tap water + 2 mil Seaweed extract per 5 litres. Looking forward to seeing how they respond to that. I may have to alter the ratio a little.

Update on the clones - they're still in the 3" pots I transplanted them into and moved them all into a new location under a 200w blue Enviro. I switched the second red Enviro into the main plant flowering area this afternoon.

Here's a few pics of the clones before they all lose their heads


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## babygro (Jul 16, 2007)

Couple more clone pics.


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## beenthere donethat (Jul 28, 2007)

Can you post more bud shots of these? Should be 30 days in or so now of 12/12...if not more...and I'm sure a buncha folks who use hps that you've put down along the way would like to see how this is all done properly. 

Those buds must be the size of Chernobyl watermelons by now under all that CFL/true to PAR lighting...

so let's see 'em....first grow and all...c'mon man...you talk, talk, talk...now let's see that walk, walk, walk. It's only fair.


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## frankiejay (Jul 28, 2007)

Wonderful grow journal babygro. I forgot to thank you for helping me out a little over a week ago with my plants, so thank you.


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## babygro (Jul 29, 2007)

beenthere donethat said:


> Can you post more bud shots of these? Should be 30 days in or so now of 12/12...if not more...and I'm sure a buncha folks who use hps that you've put down along the way would like to see how this is all done properly.


All in good time.

Day 34 of flowering today.



beenthere donethat said:


> Those buds must be the size of Chernobyl watermelons by now under all that CFL/true to PAR lighting...


I'm not using Purple bulbs for flowering, I'm using standard warm red 2,700k, which puts out the same spectrum as a HPS 2,700k bulb.

When I'm ready to do so, I shall put out a challenge to anyone on here to out-yield my fluorescents with their HIDS. You're free to take me on if you like, but you'll have to do a lot better than 0.4g per watt of electricity used if you hope to beat me, because I'm achieving more than that with my existing fluorescents.



beenthere donethat said:


> so let's see 'em....first grow and all...c'mon man...you talk, talk, talk...now let's see that walk, walk, walk. It's only fair.


First grow? Wrong. First grow documented on here, yes.

Neither do I have anything to prove to you or anyone else on here with what I do in my own grow. I'll post pictures when I'm ready to post pictures - not when you demand to see them.

If you'd like to follow the progress of my grow - please feel free to do so.

If you're only posting in my grow journal to cause trouble - fuck off and annoy someone else.


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## babygro (Jul 29, 2007)

frankiejay said:


> Wonderful grow journal babygro. I forgot to thank you for helping me out a little over a week ago with my plants, so thank you.


You're welcome Frankiejay, glad to be of assistance and thanks for stopping by my journal.


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## MajoR_TokE (Aug 2, 2007)

Babygro how's it going?


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## babygro (Aug 2, 2007)

MajoR_TokE said:


> Babygro how's it going?


It's going well, they're not all dead as some on here might suggest  It's about time I updated this anyway.

It's day 87, 38 flowering. So they're just starting their 6th week of flowering.

The Kalichakra are 63-68 days and Satori 65-70. So another 3-4 weeks flowering to go and I wish they'd get a hurry up!

Been watering them with about 80/20 RO/Tap water which sorted the Mg problems I've been having, but some of the ones in smaller pots starting showing N def's but the ones in the bigger pots have been fine. 

Feed has been about 2 mil per litre Biobizz Grow and 1 mil per litre of Biobizz bloom. Why more Grow than bloom? Two reasons really, firstly, to keep the N problems in check and secondly because of the molasses content of Grow. 

People wonder why I don't use molasses - that's why - Biobizz Grow is based on Sugar Beet byproducts and that's effectively where molasses comes from. Grow already has a lot of molasses content in it.

And people say I can't comment on molasses because I've never used it - Wan***s.

FlowerSat4 is the plant that doesn't seem to want to stop going upwards - at 6 weeks it's still going! Still putting out new growth and still going upwards. I'll have to bend it if it goes up much more.

FlowerSat5 I think is a Kalichakra, but I can't remember now.

FlowerSat2, 6 is the other Indica dominant Satori, similar to the Sat4, although slightly smaller - it' s packing on the buds nicely, all the way up the main stem, so much so that it leans to one side! I may have to tie this one up to stop it falling over as the bud weight goes on.

This is probably the plant I'm going to take clones from (from the mothers I made) to grow out SOG style next grow, depending on how it smokes of course. It has the characteristics I'm looking for - nice medium height, nice bud weight, no def's on this one so far at all - it'll work well in a SOG.


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## babygro (Aug 2, 2007)

Last picture.


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## SnowWhite (Aug 2, 2007)

Nice....looking good there man....I can't wait until my Satori's are like yours. Mine will be 3 weeks in soil tomorrow. How are they smelling btw??


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## babygro (Aug 2, 2007)

SnowWhite said:


> Nice....looking good there man....I can't wait until my Satori's are like yours. Mine will be 3 weeks in soil tomorrow. How are they smelling btw??


Hey SW thanks for stopping by. I'll have to have a look at your Satori, Hashberry grow, how are you liking their growth so far?

The smell is umm hard to describe! It's nothing like the Sensi Stars I grew before - they really were pungent. This is more sweet, spicey, floral, incensy, not unpleasant at all. They're pretty low odour really even in flowering.

They've got that typical 'Marijuana' smell, but it's not pungent or heavy - it's light and sweet.

Rub the stem of one of your Satori's and smell it - it's that but a bit more intense.


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## MRbudsmoker (Aug 2, 2007)

ah babygrow hello. very very nica lookin cola there.looks like u can clone easy unlike me ;-(


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## BloodShotI'z (Aug 2, 2007)

I finally get to see what the Mandala strains look like IRL. Nice. I hope they get a bit more chunky for you before its all over with. But I'd still take it as I see it now. Nice work.

I'll be checking Mandala out soon.


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## babygro (Aug 2, 2007)

MRbudsmoker said:


> ah babygrow hello. very very nica lookin cola there.looks like u can clone easy unlike me ;-(


Keep perservering MrBud, if you need any help or advice on cloning feel free to ask.


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## skunkushybrid (Aug 2, 2007)

Looking good, the fattening has yet to come. I try to have a decent sized cola at 4 weeks, you can sort of judge the yield (barring slip-ups of course, lol) around this period.

Do you know the flowering time? Being dominant sativa, i expect they'll go for around 10 weeks? Are you going to let some plants go longer than others, or chop bits from each one as the time draws near?

I can't help myself but snip off little tasters, by the time harvest day comes all that's left is the main cola.


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## SnowWhite (Aug 2, 2007)

babygro said:


> Hey SW thanks for stopping by. I'll have to have a look at your Satori, Hashberry grow, how are you liking their growth so far?


There's not much to look at at the moment I'm afraid. I'll get some pics up later today when I'm back home though. But I'm very pleased with the progress so far at 3 weeks, espeically as I nearly killed them all!! It's only a Satori grow at the moment as well, due to space considerations and male/female ratios I only started 6 Satoris. Once I've got these in my flowering space, I'll start off the hasberries and take some clones off the Satoris as well.

I know what you mean about the smell, I can smell it in my Satori's already. Very sweet!!

Your clones look very healthy too btw....I hope I can get mine to take as well, I've never taken cuttings before though, so it will be a first for me!!


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## babygro (Aug 2, 2007)

BloodShotI'z said:


> I finally get to see what the Mandala strains look like IRL. Nice. I hope they get a bit more chunky for you before its all over with. But I'd still take it as I see it now. Nice work.
> 
> I'll be checking Mandala out soon.


Thanks BloodShot, glad you like them. You need to bear in mind these have a 9-10 week flowering time, and they're only just starting their 6th week, so they've still got at least 4 weeks to go. 

Also being Sativa dominants (although leaf traits can be quite Indica looking, due to that trait being bred in) they will tend to grow and fatten in spurts. ie they'll fatten up some buds, then grow more, then fatten up more buds and so on. 

What I am pleased with, with the Satoris is the amount of resin on the fan leaves and bud shade leaves - should have plenty to make hash with - the land race genetics coming from Nepal, should make some excellent Nepalese temple ball hash. 

Whichever Mandala strain you go with - I'm sure you'll be pleased.


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## BloodShotI'z (Aug 2, 2007)

babygro said:


> Whichever Mandala strain you go with - I'm sure you'll be pleased.


All sounds good. Ill be going with everything except the Safari Mix and the Krystalaca (sp).

Its hard to find dominant Sativa genes. As far as Ive seen Mandala has the best. I wont be growing any of them. But its nice to see what they look like when grown out.

I'll just save all seeds for that rainy day.


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## babygro (Aug 2, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Looking good, the fattening has yet to come. I try to have a decent sized cola at 4 weeks, you can sort of judge the yield (barring slip-ups of course, lol) around this period.


Hey Skunky, I agree 100%.

It's around about the start of the 6th week that the fattening and swelling starts, although on the tallest Satori it's still putting out growth! I just don't know what to make of this plant at all. There's two Satori's that look like they'll yield the most - the tall one and the shorter one. It's the shorter one I showed the pics off and has the nice cola forming. On the other - the top cola is still quite bare as it's still putting out growth and going upwards - god knows when it'll start fattening up - I might have to intervene and try and force it to get it's act together.

The lower areas are dense with buds - it's just the top that looks bare. I'll attach a pic of it. This one will yield the most in my mind, followed by the similar smaller one. I'm reckoning on perhaps 3-4 oz's dry each from these. The other Satori is tall and lanky as are the two Kali's and yield will be down because of it - 1-2 oz's max off those I think. Still if I pull 10 oz's dry from 5 plants I'll be pleased. They're only in 2.5 x 1.5 ft space after all! 

It's not all about yield for me - quality plays an important part too and so the final decisions as to which to clone and SOG will be made once I've had a chance to smoke them.

There's no doubt at all in my mind that these plants were made for SOG and that's where the best yields will come from.



skunkushybrid said:


> Do you know the flowering time? Being dominant sativa, i expect they'll go for around 10 weeks? Are you going to let some plants go longer than others, or chop bits from each one as the time draws near?


Give that man a prize! 9-10 week flowering on both of them. I think I'll probably part harvest all of them - take off the top half and then let the lower half flower for another week or so - depends on how quickly the clones I take from my mothers are ready for flowering really.



skunkushybrid said:


> I can't help myself but snip off little tasters, by the time harvest day comes all that's left is the main cola.


Don't tempt me! I'll certainly take a few small samples in 2 or 3 weeks time and I'm really looking for a 50/50 cloudy clear on the trich's - I don't want any going amber on me.

I'm pretty much out of my Sensi Star now, just as well really I was beginning to get a bit tired of it - it's too couchlocky for my tastes, so I'm really looking forward to some Sativa buzz


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## babygro (Aug 2, 2007)

SnowWhite said:


> Your clones look very healthy too btw....I hope I can get mine to take as well, I've never taken cuttings before though, so it will be a first for me!!


I'm sure you'll be fine Sw. I've not had a single clone die on me yet 100% success. As long as you follow the basic procedure you should be fine.

In my opinion, the part where people go wrong is taking the humidity dome off too early and before the clone has developed it's roots. It's important to keep the dome on - but you must let them breathe for 15 mins os so a day without it. The process of misting them every day (twice in the early stages) is sufficient ventilation.

That an a little bit of light not too much, I use a 20w 2,700k energy saver CFL about 3 or 4 inches above the propagator and a little bit of warmth - mid 70's is ideal.

Create the right environment for them and care for them - you won't go wrong.

I've had a lot of success with Root Riot cubes - I wouldn't touch rockwool with a bargepole for cloning but that's just me.

Next time round I'm going to do it differently. I'm going to get some seedling trays with the little inserts - fill it with seedling compost and do it without the Root Riot cubes to see how I fare - I don't mind if they all die - I still have my mums. This will be a cheaper method than Root Riot cubes - but I do recommened them if you've not cloned before.

I've attached some pics of how my clones are doing - litte beggars are growing TOO quickly - they've outgrown my temporary home for them - I'll have to move them soon.

You can see the growth where I topped them - I've marked it in red - should have topped them earlier really. Oh yeah and the little bit of N def I got on lower leaves because I left them in their 3 inch pots too long - oops! Luckilly it's the leaves the clone had originally - it's not new growth.

Sorry about the poor pics - lights too close really.


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## sk3tch3 (Aug 2, 2007)

beAUtiful....


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## daddychrisg (Aug 2, 2007)

Healthy looking little ladies! I am working on creating such fine starters...In time, in time..


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## SnowWhite (Aug 3, 2007)

babygro said:


> I'm sure you'll be fine Sw. I've not had a single clone die on me yet 100% success. As long as you follow the basic procedure you should be fine.


Man, they look fucking great, really bushing out now too. I'm really excited about cloning on this grow actually. I can't wait to give it a go. I was going to just use a light soil mix to be honest, but I think I'll try these root riot cubes if you think they'll make my life a little easier the first time. Do you use any additional rooting hormone or anything aside from the micro nutes/fungi in the cubes? I was thinking of using my BioBizz root juice as I already have some of this....what do ya reckon? Thanks.


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## morp (Aug 3, 2007)

delete some pms baby! not pms, PM's


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## daddychrisg (Aug 4, 2007)

Hey BG, I am using a EZ Cloner right now, do you have any experience with this type of cloning machine? I am trippin on how hot it keeps the water, due to the pump heating up. The main reason I ask this is because you mentioned to keep the humidity tent on while the clones are developing there roots...Well this system has no humidity tent! I used to spray the hell out of them with plain water PH 5.8, and now I do nothing but toss fresh water in the tank every third day or so.. The Humidity of the room is 50-60%, and I am having about 90% turn out! So if I made a humidity tent, do you think I would have happier, less stressed little ladies?


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## babygro (Aug 8, 2007)

Couple of pics of the skinny Sativa dominant Satori. Coming along nicely!


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## babygro (Aug 8, 2007)

Hiya Chris

I have no experience at all of EZ cloner. Is it a kind of hydro setup?

The point of keeping the humidity dome on until the clones have formed their roots is a relatively simple one. In soil or Root Riot cubes, it's important to keep the clone in a humid environment to slow down the water loss from leaves, so the plant can retain water for longer without having to draw it from its non-existent roots.

That's why when people take the dome off too early the clones wilt and droop and lose turgidity in the cells - they're losing water faster than they can replace it - because their root system isn't developed or can't draw up enough water in ratio to the rate they're losing it at.

The only safe time in my opinion to take off the humidity dome is once the clones have formed a root system - that can take anything between 7-21 days depending on strain and environment.


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## babygro (Aug 8, 2007)

SnowWhite said:


> Man, they look fucking great, really bushing out now too. I'm really excited about cloning on this grow actually. I can't wait to give it a go. I was going to just use a light soil mix to be honest, but I think I'll try these root riot cubes if you think they'll make my life a little easier the first time. Do you use any additional rooting hormone or anything aside from the micro nutes/fungi in the cubes? I was thinking of using my BioBizz root juice as I already have some of this....what do ya reckon? Thanks.


Thanks SW, they're still doing great - just a bit bigger 

I use Clonex, which I've found to work really well. However, once the Clonex is gone, I'll try a regular rooting hormone powder from a garden centre. I used Root Riot cubes and Clonex because I wanted to give myself the best chance of success, because once the clones had been taken, there was no going back, because the plants were already in flower.

Now I've got some mums with plenty of shoots, I can experiment to my hearts content and find what works best at the most economic price. Not that Clonex and RR cubes are expensive, but it's a tenner or so, but why pay it if you can get just as good results from seedling soil and rooting hormone? Rooting hormone is a quid from a garden centre and I recently picked up some 30 litres of peat free (it came highly recommended so I wanted to try it) seedling/clone potting mix for 2 quid. That should last me ages.

People see me refer to economies all the time and poo poo it as being irrelevant. That's their choice of course, but I don't see why I should have to pay more for something that costs half the price and does just as good a job. 

At the end of the day Canna is just another plant, same as all the other garden plants people have cultivated for years without all the expensive stuff bought from the increasing proliferation of specialist hydro shops.

Sure, try the Root Juice, but I have no experience of it. I've given my clones nothing more than Seaweed extract, few doses of Formulex early on and recently Fish Mix (holds nose).


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## morp (Aug 8, 2007)

hey baby, nice looking ladies youre harbouring there. quick question, what lamps and wattages are you using? i recently picked up a 250w cfl for £30. if youre interested ill ship you the purveyors info..


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## babygro (Aug 8, 2007)

morp said:


> hey baby, nice looking ladies youre harbouring there. quick question, what lamps and wattages are you using? i recently picked up a 250w cfl for £30. if youre interested ill ship you the purveyors info..


Cheers Morp, they're coming on nicely now - fattening up and spewing out resin  The ones I'm most dissapointed with are the Kalichakras, but as I understand it, these guys put on a big spurt late on so I'll wait for that to happen. All 3 of the Satori's are going great guns, the two Indica looking ones are going to be a bumper harvest, the skinner Sativa dominant one (the pics I posted above) is also doing well, but won't produce half the yield of the other two Satoris. It's hard to take pics of the other two - the buds are so thick and dense on the main stem its hard to see anything in there. The colas are about two feet long!

To be honest, I'm moving away from Enviro's and large wattage cfls - I'm not convinced they're the most effective fluorescent lighting source. I'm more interested in T5's and T8's particularly for flowering clones.


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## bobburn (Aug 8, 2007)

come on! Give us a couple pics of those colas--I'm drooling just thinking about those monsters


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## daddychrisg (Aug 8, 2007)

I want to see these two foot colas! Nice work BG, your grow really helps out with my choice in Mandala seeds...Thanks for the thread..


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## babygro (Aug 8, 2007)

daddychrisg said:


> I want to see these two foot colas!


Bobburn, Chris

Here's a full size pic of the smaller of the two, the larger is about a foot taller than this one! This the smaller of the two Indica looking ones.

Sorry for pic quality - it's really hard to take decent pics of these they're so tall.




daddychrisg said:


> Nice work BG, your grow really helps out with my choice in Mandala seeds...Thanks for the thread..


Great to hear it Chris - going for Satori?


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## bobburn (Aug 8, 2007)

Nice work! Keep the good, efficient grows coming!


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## GoodFriend (Aug 8, 2007)

looking good BG!!!

now thats what i call a spear....


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## mattso101 (Aug 8, 2007)

I have been following this and I will for sure go with mandala strain next time. Your plant will soon resemble the pics on mandals web site!!

Are you growing with a 400watt HID??


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## babygro (Aug 8, 2007)

lumberjack_ian said:


> looking good BG!!!
> 
> now thats what i call a spear....


Cheers bobburn and Ian, I'm pleased with progress so far. Can't wait to smoke these babies!


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## babygro (Aug 8, 2007)

mattso101 said:


> I have been following this and I will for sure go with mandala strain next time. Your plant will soon resemble the pics on mandals web site!!
> 
> Are you growing with a 400watt HID??


Thanks Matt, thanks for stopping by. I'm pretty sure you'll be delighted with any Mandala seed purchase you make. The guy who produces these seeds is serious about what he does and wants to put quality genetics into the hands of everyone - not just those that can afford 100+ bucks for 10 seeds.

I'll probably end up growing out all his strains, but for the moment I'm interested in understanding how to get the best out of these which will probably take me a few grows to achieve. That's the lovely thing about these plants - they're all different, even different pheno's in the same strain are different and require different feeding levels etc.

I'm hoping to get a Macro lens for my digital Canon D30 - should get some great bud shots with that 

The lights are 400w (2 x 200w) of Envirolite CFL's 2,700k. Used the 2700k and the 6,500k one for the first 2-3 weeks of veg then switched to the two 2,700 k ones.


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## skunkushybrid (Aug 9, 2007)

Great looking cola there, mate. You've done a really nice job, I think I'm going to have to get some type of side-lighting installed myself after seeing your pic'.

Very well grown.


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## mattso101 (Aug 9, 2007)

All flourecent!! I like it baby grow!! I read an artical in high time about mandala and thier strain ever since then I have wanted to go with thier genetics. and after seeing you grow them I am even more excited. I like the strain that mandala produce low light strains and can tolerate high heat.


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## babygro (Aug 10, 2007)

Couple of Mom pics


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## SmokerE (Aug 10, 2007)

babygro said:


> The guy who produces these seeds is serious about what he does and wants to put quality genetics into the hands of everyone - not just those that can afford 100+ bucks for 10 seeds.





babygro said:


> *That's the lovely thing about these plants - they're all different, even different pheno's in the same strain are different and require different feeding levels etc.*


 
Is that really a lovely thing? To have a room full of un-uniform plants. Seems like that causes problems with lighting adjustments and the determination of how much nutrients to add to any one particular plant. The money saved on not growing out multiple plants to find that one pheno you want, buying the f1's you've let the breeder do the work under ideal conditions and you haven't wasted grow space for inferior pheno's. I guess if you want a challenge, this is the way to go. BTW, looking good babygro...


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## babygro (Aug 11, 2007)

SmokerE said:


> Is that really a lovely thing? To have a room full of un-uniform plants. Seems like that causes problems with lighting adjustments and the determination of how much nutrients to add to any one particular plant.


It's all part of the deal of growing out F1's from seed - you never really know what you're going to get. F1's will always display a fair variety of pheno's - regardless of what seeds they are.

It's all part of the growing process isn't it? Understanding each plant pheno and its needs and each one will probably smoke slightly differently as well. That way you can select which pheno you like the most and keep a mother of it. All the subsequent clones should grow and smoke in exactly the same way. 

Getting slightly different phenos from the same strain is one of the best and exciting things about growing out from seed, without that they'd all be the same.


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## JonnyBlunt88 (Aug 11, 2007)

Interesting debate you got going here...
I hate to interupt, but I just gotta subscribe to 
this one, so gotta say something.
Nice plants, fucking perfect if you ask me...


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## skunkushybrid (Aug 12, 2007)

babygro said:


> Getting slightly different phenos from the same strain is one of the best and exciting things about growing out from seed, without that they'd all be the same.


Sometimes you don't even find one. My la mom at the moment is not really an ideal mom. The smoke is excellent. It's just that the original mother died, or rather I killed her after a slip with some nutes. She was never really strong, and one in four of her clones either wilt or grow stunted. I've finally found an excellent mom in my chronic plants. Clones take straight away to any medium and grow vibrant and strong from the out-set. suffice to say, I am now outgrowing the la strain. And you saw what happened to my kush.


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## nongreenthumb (Aug 12, 2007)

Good quality f1 genes should be more consistent.

You can't compare la confidential as this is an unstable strain, they tell you as much on there site. The kush from nirvana will also be unstable because its nirvana. Try some flying dutchman seeds.


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## skunkushybrid (Aug 12, 2007)

My confidential are x'd with a mystery haze. Silver, I'd guess by the colour of the bud, as the plant itself is very indica, at least 80-90%.


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## skunkushybrid (Aug 12, 2007)

I can't agree on the kush, as the three males were absolutely beautiful, and all 3 would have made excellent moms. The genetics IMO were amazing, I honestly feel I just got unlucky with the strain. My big mouth as well, pointing out the fem's and males almost as soon as they popped. LOL.

Seriously though, I was amazed at how quickly the seeds germinated and popped through the medium. All 5 in under 48 hours.


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## nongreenthumb (Aug 12, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> I can't agree on the kush, as the three males were absolutely beautiful, and all 3 would have made excellent moms. The genetics IMO were amazing, I honestly feel I just got unlucky with the strain. My big mouth as well, pointing out the fem's and males almost as soon as they popped. LOL.
> 
> Seriously though, I was amazed at how quickly the seeds germinated and popped through the medium. All 5 in under 48 hours.


All I am saying though is that an f1 with good genetics should be consistent otherwise the strain wouldn't be considered to be very stable.


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## skunkushybrid (Aug 12, 2007)

nongreenthumb said:


> All I am saying though is that an f1 with good genetics should be consistent otherwise the strain wouldn't be considered to be very stable.


I think this is where the 'F1' moniker comes in, in regards to the plant's stability. My confidential were a straight cross, a mongrel. This is why the plants were weak. But every strain I've grown has had variances in it's females, some may have a little more of this than that, if you see what i mean. Hybrids will always display differing characteristics. Each seed is an individual.


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## nongreenthumb (Aug 12, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> I think this is where the 'F1' moniker comes in, in regards to the plant's stability. My confidential were a straight cross, a mongrel. This is why the plants were weak. But every strain I've grown has had variances in it's females, some may have a little more of this than that, if you see what i mean. Hybrids will always display differing characteristics. Each seed is an individual.


I'm not saying that an f1 would be completely one pheno it should be around 60-80% that match the breeders description but the way babygro made the above statement it comes across as being unstable.


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## skunkushybrid (Aug 12, 2007)

I see what you mean, although I've interpreted it differently. 

You've gone through a fair few strains yourself, many of them F1's. I'm sure you'd have noted that some will need more nutes than others, despite you (like myself) continuing with the same feeding schedules for all the plants, due to ease. F1's are much more stable in regards to achieving uniformity, yet the seed will still contain a mixture of genes that have come together in the seed while it was still attached to mommy. Maybe two seeds from right next to each other could display exact characteristics as they have come from something approximating the same environment. i.e. that part of the plant may have had access to more lumens, less insect damage etc.

I'm not pretending I understand exactly what happens inside a seed, I'm just guessing based on my experience with growing different strains, so far.


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## SnowWhite (Aug 15, 2007)

babygro said:


> Couple of Mom pics


Good work mate....they look very healthy! How big you going to let them get? I guess you'll be taking lots of cuttings soon, so that will keep the size down. What size pots you keeping them in long term?


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## mattso101 (Aug 24, 2007)

hey Babygrow, Lets see some pics of those "spears" now they must be looking great!


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## SmokerE (Sep 2, 2007)

yeah baby, where's the gro?


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## SnowWhite (Sep 10, 2007)

How's it going dude? Hope all is well. 

Come on man......Don't keep us all in suspense.....you must of harvested some fat buds by now?? Pics??? I want to see what I'm going to be enjoying myself in a couple of months time!

I'm just going into week 2 flowering on my Satori's with 3 confirmed females!


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## TheJollyBrother (Nov 22, 2007)

Hey Baby-Gro obviously wanted to say first how gr8 your grow is, i just read the entire Thread up to here, having not been on Rollitup of a while, loving it!

So on week 7, how tall have those plants got?? and did you use 2 125w Enviro's for that? because im wanting to use envirolites but not sure how good they would be .
And what sort of light are you considering for flowering?
and what sort of size space have you got for those 8 plants, coincidently thats how many i want to grow too.
thanks a lot  gr8 grow.


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## GoodFriend (Nov 22, 2007)

TheJollyBrother said:


> Hey Baby-Gro obviously wanted to say first how gr8 your grow is, i just read the entire Thread up to here, having not been on Rollitup of a while, loving it!
> 
> So on week 7, how tall have those plants got?? and did you use 2 125w Enviro's for that? because im wanting to use envirolites but not sure how good they would be .
> And what sort of light are you considering for flowering?
> ...


 
sorry friend
i very much doubt you'll get a response from baby these days

he up and left a while back...


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## TheJollyBrother (Nov 22, 2007)

Darn............


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## 421 (Feb 1, 2008)

Man, what a sad ending to such a great thread. I signed up here because of Baby.


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## OB Cron Kenobi (Jun 19, 2008)

A year later and i still want answers! and pics!


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## Ligerius (Apr 27, 2009)

ah damn i just finished reading the whole thread word for word in suspense for that final pic before harvest, to get some idea of what my satoris which just popped will be like, and now i find out i will never know....


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## Babs34 (Apr 30, 2009)

Ligerius said:


> ah damn i just finished reading the whole thread word for word in suspense for that final pic before harvest, to get some idea of what my satoris which just popped will be like, and now i find out i will never know....


 LOL, so many gripe when you skip throuh pages. Me? I went from page one right to the end.....I don't have time to waste.


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## LogHead (Nov 3, 2009)

babygro said:


> Couple of pics of the skinny Sativa dominant Satori. Coming along nicely!





babygro said:


> Bobburn, Chris
> 
> Here's a full size pic of the smaller of the two, the larger is about a foot taller than this one! This the smaller of the two Indica looking ones.
> 
> ...


very very nice satori's.


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## LogHead (Nov 7, 2009)

whoops necros this one a little sorry forgive me!


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## nog (May 10, 2010)

skunkushybrid said:


> Sometimes you don't even find one. My la mom at the moment is not really an ideal mom. The smoke is excellent. It's just that the original mother died, or rather I killed her after a slip with some nutes. She was never really strong, and one in four of her clones either wilt or grow stunted. I've finally found an excellent mom in my chronic plants. Clones take straight away to any medium and grow vibrant and strong from the out-set. suffice to say, I am now outgrowing the la strain. And you saw what happened to my kush.


i never could clone chronic, everything else ok, maybe the phenos i had were different, have you noticed any difficulties with any chronic phens?


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