# Taking the plunge: HP Aero Drain to Waste



## GreenThumbSucker (Dec 30, 2012)

I have decided to convert one of my rooms to Drain to Waste High Pressure Aeroponics. I am doing this for several reasons.

1. Almost zero chance of getting root rot
2. PH does not change
3. PPM does not change
4. Plants always receive pristine, fresh nutrients
5. Cheaper, don't dump 50 gallons of nutrient solution every week
6. Highest growth rates in hydroponics

When dialed in, you only lose 15% - 20% to waste so it is very cheap. The sprayers spray very little puffs of spray every minute or so. 

Of course there are downfalls too, a power outage can wreck your whole crop. I'm willing to take that chance.

I will be running 80 psi - 95 psi using four totes with one sprayer each. The droplet size is 50 - 80 micron, perfect for pristine oxygen delivery. This will be interesting.

*I have some questions:*
My cuttings are just pushing out roots from the rockwool cubes. *What is a good starting setting for my timer?* The timer can be set as low as one second intervals.

*What is a good NPK ratio for Vegetative in HP Aero?
*
I will haves some pictures later!

GTS


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 1, 2013)

I bought the parts for the drain system. Each tote has a drain hole on the bottom center that is connected by poly hose to a 1 inch PVC pipe that runs the length of the room. The totes are staggered so the drain pipe runs through every other tote. Here are some pictures:




The upper totes are 20 inches high and the lower tote (base) is 12 inches high. These 12 inches allow me to have the drain pipe running downhill from one end of the room to the other.

The end of the PVC pipe has a 3/4 inch nipple that will attach to a hose that will run out the corner of the door, hidden by weeds. It is a very obscure entrance to my basement thus perfect for draining stealthily. 

Tomorrow I will install the misting pump and system and start it running.

Questions? Comments? Advise? Surely someone on this board runs High Pressure Aeroponics????


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 2, 2013)

Finished the drain to waste system and tested it, works flawlessly. I will pour bleached water down it once a week to keep funk out. Now to put together the HP aero and fire it up. Will take some pics when I am done.


I could really use some help on what PPMs to run.

GTS


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## oxanaca (Jan 3, 2013)

ive only grown basil in my system so far, but ive heard alot of people say they start at around 400ppm and work there way up based on the strain they are working with. one menber on here recently told me they were reaching 1000ppm at the end of flowering. i guess you kind of have to just tweak it until things are optimal. 

i was at 500ppm with my basil and they looked great, before the power went out and my plants died. 

im really into this whole hp aero thing myself. im thinking the only way this things gonna work out for me though is if i can learn to machine my own 0.025" and 0.016" stainless steel impingement nozzles


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## tallen (Jan 3, 2013)

Hit up SuperStoner1 or check out his "my three stages of flower" thread and he might be able to help you out. I believe he's running low pressure aero (an updated Stinkbud system) but the ppm's should be pretty close to the same-enough for you to be able to dial it in from there anyway.

Just wanted to say it looks pretty good. Wanted to do aero from the start, but went DWC/RDWC to learn what the hell I'm doing 1st. Never though of drain to waist style though, I might incorporate that when I do try aero (low pressure to start with anyway). Tired of my RDWC buckets and getting some flood tables. Already thinking of ways to turn them into aero tables 

Anyway, lookin good man, hope you've got some head room and a trellis handy for cuz with them totes you're gunna have some monsters on your hands!


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## ilikecheetoes (Jan 3, 2013)

what pump and misters are you using? accumulator?


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 3, 2013)

ilikecheetoes said:


> what pump and misters are you using? accumulator?


Im running an aquatec 6800 and I don't know what the misters are called, but I got them from multiponics. I'm just running from pump to misters, no pressure valves or accumulators. At least not yet. This run is to get my feet wet. The system is running at 85 - 90 psi. Very fine almost fog like mist.

The misters are exactly like the one seen in this video:

[video=youtube_share;9EOr_gH51gA]http://youtu.be/9EOr_gH51gA[/video]

I got the misters and HP water line at multiponics.com and everything else either at H2O depot or on Ebay. Everything works fine. I am watching and waiting for them to kick out some roots so I can start bringing up the PPM and lowering the lights. Just not sure what to bring the PPM up to. I am thinking of running my pump off a deep cell boat battery hooked up to a trickle charger. THat way they will keep spraying for a few days if the power goes out.

Thanks for your reply.

GTS


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 3, 2013)

tallen said:


> Hit up SuperStoner1 or check out his "my three stages of flower" thread and he might be able to help you out. I believe he's running low pressure aero (an updated Stinkbud system) but the ppm's should be pretty close to the same-enough for you to be able to dial it in from there anyway.
> 
> Just wanted to say it looks pretty good. Wanted to do aero from the start, but went DWC/RDWC to learn what the hell I'm doing 1st. Never though of drain to waist style though, I might incorporate that when I do try aero (low pressure to start with anyway). Tired of my RDWC buckets and getting some flood tables. Already thinking of ways to turn them into aero tables
> 
> Anyway, lookin good man, hope you've got some head room and a trellis handy for cuz with them totes you're gunna have some monsters on your hands!


Low pressure aero is a completely different animal. I have read that HP aero runs even lower PPMs than LP aero. Don't think you would want to go drain to waste with low pressure. You would be throwing out a gallon of solution every time your timer kicked in. Would empty your reservoir in a few hours. The pump I am running pushes out about 7 GPH and only runs about 10 seconds every few minutes. Very low water usage. Once I have lots of roots I should be wasting very little solution to waste. Just need to get the timing down on the spray intervals and duration. I'm stoked.


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## tallen (Jan 3, 2013)

Ok, thanks for the info, saved me a bunch of research time. Glad you knew better than to take my misguided advice too, sorry


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 3, 2013)

tallen said:


> Ok, thanks for the info, saved me a bunch of research time. Glad you knew better than to take my misguided advice too, sorry


We're all learnin'


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 4, 2013)

Roots are popping! Yay! They are the tiniest, finest little hair like roots I have ever seen. Amazing! Can already see the little feeder hairs on them. They are very short now, but once they grow a little I will take some pics and post them.

I notice it is very warm inside the totes, probably 85 degrees. I believe this is because I painted the lids of the totes black. Tomorrow I will put some silver bubble wrap insulation on the tops of the totes to reflect the light off them. this should cool them down.

I am spraying them for about 1.5 seconds every 2.5 minutes. This should be fine until the roots get a bit bigger.


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## ounevinsmoke (Jan 4, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> Roots are popping! Yay! They are the tiniest, finest little hair like roots I have ever seen. Amazing! Can already see the little feeder hairs on them. They are very short now, but once they grow a little I will take some pics and post them.
> 
> I notice it is very warm inside the totes, probably 85 degrees. I believe this is because I painted the lids of the totes black. Tomorrow I will put some silver bubble wrap insulation on the tops of the totes to reflect the light off them. this should cool them down.
> 
> I am spraying them for about 1.5 seconds every 2.5 minutes. This should be fine until the roots get a bit bigger.


Pics... Bottom and top


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## takeiteazy (Jan 5, 2013)

Where are you getting your nute mixture from ? Surely a large 200l drum or whatever you use would be prone to bateria/warmth/pythium etc


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## PetFlora (Jan 5, 2013)

I have been experimenting with hpa sans accum/solenoids for several years. Experienced growers told me I need an accum, but I was stubborn. 

A 6800 is probably not strong enough to handle the constant 1 min start ups, but will work fine once you incorporate an accum & solenoid. I use 8800s

The basic obstacle (sans accum) is the amount of start up pressure when the pump comes on (Without being udner pressure, it falls below ideal). I tried to compensate by having the pump and rez higher than the misters, but still had to up _on_ times to 3 seconds with my Sentinel digital timer. According to Sentinel, it is not accurate at one second. Anyway you really want < 1 sec on times, or you will have too much nutrient mist per cycle, which will become waste.

Also you probably need a manifold with delivery lines as short as possible, as well as the same length

Over my last 2 grows I began experimenting with DWC while developing *My DIY 21st Century F & D*. Without an accum my hpa result was no better than the others, and actually used a lot more nutrient. Plus root chamber temps and RH are critical to maintain- hard to do in warm climates

Be interesting to see whether you overcome the known obstacles. My next grow will be 100% *My DIY 21st Century F & D, *but all you need is an appropriately sized pressure tank to meet all the pods

Nute strength no more than ~ 600ppms for full grown plants. Keep in mind hpa is constantly feeding, so no need for higher ppms
Check out my RIU journal, link in my sig


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## hammer21 (Jan 5, 2013)

You will need to get a chiller for any type of hydro grow keeping root zone temps at 65-68 degrees is critical to prevent root rot and disease. Spraying short burst will have no cooling effect threw a complete spray cycle. Just starting out I would serious consider going with super stoner or stick bud system.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 5, 2013)

takeiteazy said:


> Where are you getting your nute mixture from ? Surely a large 200l drum or whatever you use would be prone to bateria/warmth/pythium etc


I'm using the old 50 gallon reservoir from my Ebb and Gro. Because the solution does not recirculate, it stays nice and fresh. That is one of the good things about drain to waste, almost no chance at getting root rot. I am adding a little hydrogen peroxide every day. A Couple tablespoons. Just enough to keep it sterile.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 5, 2013)

PetFlora said:


> I have been experimenting with hpa sans accum/solenoids for several years. Experienced growers told me I need an accum, but I was stubborn.
> 
> A 6800 is probably not strong enough to handle the constant 1 min start ups, but will work fine once you incorporate an accum & solenoid. I use 8800s
> 
> ...


Yeah, I read that one minute start-ups are hard on the pump. The 6800 pump is built to run constantly. I am not sure what the role of the accumulator is, except to maintain pressure somewhere, somehow. That is why I started this thread, to learn stuff like that.

I was thinking about running two solenoids. One default open and one default closed. I would put a T on the line coming out of the pump. One line on the T would run back to the reservoir. This line would be default open. The other line that goes to the sprayers would be default closed. That way the pump could run continually and the solution would just go back into the reservoir. When the timer came on, the line going to the reservoir would close, and the line going to the sprayers would open, thus diverting the solution to the sprayers. When the timer went off, the line going to the sprayers would close, and the line going to the reservoir would open. This would allow me to have the pump running continually.

What do you think of this idea? I think I read it on a fatman thread a while back.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 5, 2013)

hammer21 said:


> You will need to get a chiller for any type of hydro grow keeping root zone temps at 65-68 degrees is critical to prevent root rot and disease. Spraying short burst will have no cooling effect threw a complete spray cycle. Just starting out I would serious consider going with super stoner or stick bud system.


I already have a chiller. Right now, the reservoir is in a separate room. Solution temperature is about 59 degrees. When summer comes I will fire the chiller back up.

I bought an "up to 50 gallons" aquarium heater for the reservoir, I will warm it up to 68 - 70 degrees. I might run it warmer eventually. I need to build a 'raft' to hold my continuous read meters and heater. If the PH probe dries out it is ruined and if the heater probe dries out it will explode. Because the solution level in the barrel will drop a few feet between refills, they need to float on the solution. I will figure this out.

I'm going to go with HP aero no matter what. I will figure it all out.


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## PetFlora (Jan 5, 2013)

Accumulators keep liquids under pressure. To be sized according to the number and volume of pods you will grow in.

Google (or search RIU) this stuff as do/did this, I didn't. So I won't quote numbers but consider a 20G Accum holding say 5G under pressure. The solenoid is on a timer and releases atomized nutrients- assuming you nozzles are capable. The ones you have, not so much, but go with what ya got, and upgrade later

Then you need to work out how many heads and set time accordingly. Do and monitor one, then multiply by number of heads. That's a super simplified explanation, but it can get a lot more complex fast..

I am so over HPA, but learned a ton from trying to make it work


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## hammer21 (Jan 5, 2013)

I hear ya pet I to gave up on the fuzzy root theory long ago also. Hey green best advice is do not waste your time or money do dirt or dwc or ebb flo or stink bud-super stoner system use that 6800 to run a reverse osmosis.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 5, 2013)

hammer21 said:


> I hear ya pet I to gave up on the fuzzy root theory long ago also. Hey green best advice is do not waste your time or money do dirt or dwc or ebb flo or stink bud-super stoner system use that 6800 to run a reverse osmosis.


Ive done all that. Did dirt for years. I'm doing DWC now. I've done ebb and flow and drip. I have experience with my co-op partner (in his setup) doing low pressure aero. Now I am doing this. I am going to keep it as simple as possible, but thanks for the warnings


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## PetFlora (Jan 5, 2013)

Well, I feel as though I was taken a bit out of context. If you're going to do HPA, do it right. Short of that then I really like my DIY 21st Century F & D, but DWC with tons of bubbles is good too.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 5, 2013)

PetFlora said:


> Well, I feel as though I was taken a bit out of context. If you're going to do HPA, do it right. Short of that then I really like my DIY 21st Century F & D, bt DWC with tons of bubbles is good too.


After this crop I will decide where I am going to go with it. Right now I'm keeping it as simple as possible. My tubs were warm inside because I painted the tops black, so I put some silver insulation on the lids, cooled them way down. They must be in the low 70s now. Were at least 85 degrees in the root zone before that. I will try to leap each hurdle as I come to it. Just want to survive this one.

I still have two rooms that are running DWC. I use flat 10 inch disc airstones running at high pressure. Two per 27 gallon tub. Hyper aeration. Still lose a plant here and there to the rot.

Here are some pics from the Aero room. Running cool tubes. Tiny fragile HP aero roots.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 6, 2013)

PetFlora said:


> Well, I feel as though I was taken a bit out of context. If you're going to do HPA, do it right. Short of that then I really like my DIY 21st Century F & D, but DWC with tons of bubbles is good too.


What specific problems did you have that turned you off with High Pressure Aero? How important is it to run it 'flawlessly'? If I have a system that is pushing out the droplets the right size and the temps, ph, ppm and timing is right, do I really need perfection? I really want to keep this as simple as possible. If I can get it down to something that is relatively simple that works, I will be happy.


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## PetFlora (Jan 6, 2013)

The goal with HPA is to have root hairs which are the most efficient eaters. The problem is the roots must neither be too wet nor too dry- keep the roots hungry, but never starving. 

High RH/temps inside the pod is a root hair killer. My grow room is not climate controlled and the room has open beam ceilings. This week temps will be 80+ all week. That's ok for ambient temps during veg, but it drives high humidity/heat inside the pod. Also the pod lid needs to be covered with reflective material or the heat from the grow lights will cause high heat/humidity inside the pod, again killing the root hairs.

Good to have leds with HPA in warmer climates. I use HOT5s, which don't throw a lot of downward temps, but the smaller the plant the closer to the lights and, well, 80*s inside the root pod and root hairs will die, or not develop. 

Clearly, if you live in more moderate temps, the issues are minimized, but too cold is similarly bad for root hairs. 

And so on with the potential obstacles

hth

Don't really want to get any more involved in this within my thread


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## hammer21 (Jan 6, 2013)

Green do not try and perfect Pom Pom roots the only way to get them is to starve the plant you will see very little growth. Bottom line if you want killer results spray the crap out of them with highly oxygenated spray at 65-68 degree. Do not do a drain to waste unless you plan on starving your plant. or do not care how much nutes you will be wasting. just change your reservoir weekly. And you will grow fast and monsters. I spray every 4 minutes for 15 seconds with fish bone roots and great results. Good luck


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 6, 2013)

hammer21 said:


> Green do not try and perfect Pom Pom roots the only way to get them is to starve the plant you will see very little growth. Bottom line if you want killer results spray the crap out of them with highly oxygenated spray at 65-68 degree. Do not do a drain to waste unless you plan on starving your plant. or do not care how much nutes you will be wasting. just change your reservoir weekly. And you will grow fast and monsters. I spray every 4 minutes for 15 seconds with fish bone roots and great results. Good luck


Yeah, I read that some people end up with dwarf plants. Im more interested in the high levels of oxygenation. I'm with you on drenching them.

I have all the chemicals needed to make my own fertilizer. Only costs about $5 per gallon to make. I'm going to mix up a batch of the Fatmans drain to waste aero formula and run that. Right now I'm running his DUI lucas formula, and it kicks ass, but for something like this I have to deliver exactly what they use and no more or less.


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## PetFlora (Jan 7, 2013)

DRENCHING is not the answer either. You wind up with roots that look like over cooked spaghetti. Having experienced all the problems first hand, I developed *My DIY 21st Century 'Flood' & Drain*. Link was going to wrong thread, asked Mods for help


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 7, 2013)

The more I read and watch youtube videos, the more I am convinced that drenching is the way to go. Seems people have this thing about pushing their plants to near death in search of elusive root hair perfection. I don't need perfection, just a better way to oxygenate, which the mist accomplishes nicely. Too many horror stories from people seeking the perfect roots and having to toss out half their plants because they killed them.

K.I.S.S. is the route I am going to stick with.

One thing I have learned is that you need to drop roots BEFORE you put them in your aero system. Mine started dropping roots but they are too tiny, I need a good tap root so I slapped together a quick tote DWC with a little water heater and a few airstones. Once they drop some nice tap roots, I will move them back into the aeroponics system.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 9, 2013)

Where can I get solenoid valves? I need one 
Normally open and one normally closed.

Thanks...

GTS


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 9, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> Yeah, I read that one minute start-ups are hard on the pump. The 6800 pump is built to run constantly. I am not sure what the role of the accumulator is, except to maintain pressure somewhere, somehow. That is why I started this thread, to learn stuff like that.
> 
> I was thinking about running two solenoids. One default open and one default closed. I would put a T on the line coming out of the pump. One line on the T would run back to the reservoir. This line would be default open. The other line that goes to the sprayers would be default closed. That way the pump could run continually and the solution would just go back into the reservoir. When the timer came on, the line going to the reservoir would close, and the line going to the sprayers would open, thus diverting the solution to the sprayers. When the timer went off, the line going to the sprayers would close, and the line going to the reservoir would open. This would allow me to have the pump running continually.
> 
> What do you think of this idea? I think I read it on a fatman thread a while back.


These HP pumps are not made for continous duty and would burn out, not to mention the noise, electrical waste and heat they would make. You cannot run without an accumulator and get any better results than normal hydro, sorry...

Also, you will have pressure drops feeding more than a couple nozzles due to the low flow rate of the pump, giving you larger droplets- you need the accumulator!


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 9, 2013)

hammer21 said:


> Green do not try and perfect Pom Pom roots the only way to get them is to starve the plant you will see very little growth. Bottom line if you want killer results spray the crap out of them with highly oxygenated spray at 65-68 degree. Do not do a drain to waste unless you plan on starving your plant. or do not care how much nutes you will be wasting. just change your reservoir weekly. And you will grow fast and monsters. I spray every 4 minutes for 15 seconds with fish bone roots and great results. Good luck


I love you Hammer, but I fully disagree. The plants do not starve, they flourish and become very efficient eaters. But you have to do it right in the first place, with an accumulator, and the correct mist nozzles...


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 9, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> I'm using the old 50 gallon reservoir from my Ebb and Gro. Because the solution does not recirculate, it stays nice and fresh. That is one of the good things about drain to waste, almost no chance at getting root rot. I am adding a little hydrogen peroxide every day. A Couple tablespoons. Just enough to keep it sterile.


That's a huge rez, my 8 site chamber only used 5-10 gallons per week.


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 9, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> The more I read and watch youtube videos, the more I am convinced that drenching is the way to go. Seems people have this thing about pushing their plants to near death in search of elusive root hair perfection. I don't need perfection, just a better way to oxygenate, which the mist accomplishes nicely. Too many horror stories from people seeking the perfect roots and having to toss out half their plants because they killed them.
> 
> K.I.S.S. is the route I am going to stick with.
> 
> One thing I have learned is that you need to drop roots BEFORE you put them in your aero system. Mine started dropping roots but they are too tiny, I need a good tap root so I slapped together a quick tote DWC with a little water heater and a few airstones. Once they drop some nice tap roots, I will move them back into the aeroponics system.


When you drench, you are covering the roots in liquid, which somwhat starves them for oxygen and is about the same as hydroponics. HP aero is an all or nothing thing, and it seems you are not interested in doing it. The reason people have trouble is because they try to shortcut or simplify, so Then the aeroflo or stinkbud system is probably better for you... You really need to read and research before wasting money... HP aero done properly with an accumulator is foolproof in terms of reliability, even in a power outage the tank keeps the nutes spraying for possibly days without the need to recharge- you only need a 12v marine battery to keep the solenoid and timers going... There is a bit or work in building a system, but after that, it is very simple to run- almost fully automated other than reading your plants and adjusting the mist and ppm according to stages of growth and ambient conditions...


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 10, 2013)

Trichy Bastard said:


> These HP pumps are not made for continous duty and would burn out, not to mention the noise, electrical waste and heat they would make. You cannot run without an accumulator and get any better results than normal hydro, sorry...
> 
> Also, you will have pressure drops feeding more than a couple nozzles due to the low flow rate of the pump, giving you larger droplets- you need the accumulator!


The aquatec 6800 is a continuous duty pump according to the manufacturer. It is also uses very little power. This pump is dead silent. All I can hear when it runs are the misters spraying. 

It will last longer a lot longer if I use a couple solenoids and just run it continually and divert it back into the reservoir when the timer is in the off state. I will get a couple deep cell marine batteries. I can trickle charge from a solar panel, which would allow it to run for eternity with the power off, or trickle charge them from the house current with a boat charger. With at two deep cell batteries I would get at least three or four days off a single charge. The deep cell batteries in my sailboat last a week running a cooler, boat lights, VH radio and sound system.

The pump is running at just over 90 psi right now. I can adjust it if needed. With the nozzles I am using I can run 6 before any pressure drop. I will never need to run more than four pods at once in this room, 1 plant per pod.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 10, 2013)

Trichy Bastard said:


> When you drench, you are covering the roots in liquid, which somwhat starves them for oxygen and is about the same as hydroponics. HP aero is an all or nothing thing, and it seems you are not interested in doing it. The reason people have trouble is because they try to shortcut or simplify, so Then the aeroflo or stinkbud system is probably better for you... You really need to read and research before wasting money... HP aero done properly with an accumulator is foolproof in terms of reliability, even in a power outage the tank keeps the nutes spraying for possibly days without the need to recharge- you only need a 12v marine battery to keep the solenoid and timers going... There is a bit or work in building a system, but after that, it is very simple to run- almost fully automated other than reading your plants and adjusting the mist and ppm according to stages of growth and ambient conditions...


I don't think it *has to be* all or nothing. Especially when I am just beginning to get my feet wet. Perhaps in the future I will want to step it up a level, but for now I am going to keep it as safe and simple as possible and see what comes of it. Time will tell where I go with it. Simple is good for me at this time.

I have no interest in running a low pressure sprinkler system.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 10, 2013)

Trichy Bastard said:


> That's a huge rez, my 8 site chamber only used 5-10 gallons per week.


In my DWC tree system four plants drink 15-20 gallons a day in full bloom. That is the measure I go by. I also go on 2-3 day ski or sailing trips. I have someone babysit, but I like to be able to walk for a few days without them having to touch the system. I have had babysitters fuck my plants up in the past. Automation is a beautiful thing.

I am going to be doing drain to waste, I suspect I will use about 75-100 gallons a week with this system, if they drink what my DWC plants do. The beauty of drain to waste is the PPM or PH never move. Everytime the plants drink, it's fresh pristine solution. It's a beautiful thing.

Really what I need to work out are the PPMs. With my DWC setups, I run about 550 ppm for veg and 650 - 900 PPM for flowering - toward the higher end after the third week when they start using more magnesium. I have seen multiponics videos successfully run 1300 - 1500 PPM during flowering on a recirculating HP Aero system, which I would never consider. I have read of people flowering with 500 - 600 ppm with HP aero. I may stick to the middle of levels used in my DWC systems, right aroung 700 - 800 ppm. We shall see where it goes.

I appreciate the replies and advise, gives me a lot to think about.

GTS


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 10, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> In my DWC tree system four plants drink 15-20 gallons a day in full bloom. That is the measure I go by. I also go on 2-3 day ski or sailing trips. I have someone babysit, but I like to be able to walk for a few days without them having to touch the system. I have had babysitters fuck my plants up in the past. Automation is a beautiful thing.
> 
> I am going to be doing drain to waste, I suspect I will use about 75-100 gallons a week with this system, if they drink what my DWC plants do. The beauty of drain to waste is the PPM or PH never move. Everytime the plants drink, it's fresh pristine solution. It's a beautiful thing.
> 
> ...


Feed the same as your DWC... You might not have aero roots and therefore won't need to change your regimen as it will be similar from the plant's perspective. You'll be tossing out alot of water and spending alot of extra time and trouble on a system that won't likely produce much better than your DWC- but perhaps you'll make it work, and if it doesn't make you happy you only have to add a little more to go all the way. You won't need a heater with the heat the pump likely creates running constantly. 

Give it a shot and we'll see how it works- and work on it if it needs any help


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 10, 2013)

Trichy Bastard said:


> Feed the same as your DWC... You might not have aero roots and therefore won't need to change your regimen as it will be similar from the plant's perspective. You'll be tossing out alot of water and spending alot of extra time and trouble on a system that won't likely produce much better than your DWC- but perhaps you'll make it work, and if it doesn't make you happy you only have to add a little more to go all the way. You won't need a heater with the heat the pump likely creates running constantly.
> 
> Give it a shot and we'll see how it works- and work on it if it needs any help


I will keep it updated as this crop progresses, thanks again and I will probably be asking more questions down the road.


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## hammer21 (Jan 10, 2013)

Here is some root shots 6"X6" square tubing using 0.28 stainless nozzles spraying for 15 seconds every 4 minutes. growing very good.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 10, 2013)

hammer21 said:


> Here is some root shots 6"X6" square tubing using 0.28 stainless nozzles spraying for 15 seconds every 4 minutes. growing very good.View attachment 2475269View attachment 2475272


How do they look upstairs? Amazing how fine the roots are with HP aero. Cant wait.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 10, 2013)

I insulated my aero totes while the youngsters are dropping roots over in the DWC tote. 

Here is some "Insulation porn":



Bubble wrap insulation.... nectar of the Gods!

They are nice and tightly wrapped. Between the insulation and the chiller I should be able to keep temps inside the totes nice and cool.


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## squarepush3r (Jan 10, 2013)

veg NPK would be about 5-1.5-4 nice ballpark ratio. For solenoids, I got mine from ebay and paid very cheap, there are so many but you can get them for like $10 I recall? Or maybe use sprinkler ones?


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 11, 2013)

squarepush3r said:


> veg NPK would be about 5-1.5-4 nice ballpark ratio. For solenoids, I got mine from ebay and paid very cheap, there are so many but you can get them for like $10 I recall? Or maybe use sprinkler ones?


I'm going to run fatmans drain to waste bloom, if I recall the numbers are around 4-1.3-5. Hard to look it up on this phone  He based his formula off tissue samples he had tested running his medium pressure Aero system. I found some solenoids on a water purification site. Would have to adapt them to 1/4 inch john guest fittings. Will keep looking on eBay though, the ones I found were a little pricey. 


Good to see your still around, did you ever use any of fatmans fert recipes?


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## PetFlora (Jan 11, 2013)

My last 2 hpa grows were by far my best in an 18G tote- almost comparable to My DIY 21st Century F & D, but no where near as efficient- too much waste runoff without proper timing, as can only be gotten with an accumulator

I used 2 heads in early veg, 4 heads until finished.

3 seconds wet, and 3-4 minutes dry. One week here can be 60* the next week 80*s +, the back to 60s, which is not conducive to hpa. It requires (demands?) stable ambient temps/RH

I determined cycles by placing the back of my hand lightly against the root mass. 

Never 'starved' them, an uneducated notion.

I also tried 23 seconds on, which is the lowest setting on my analog timer. It essentially _soaked_ them. The reason why DWC CAN work is only when the user has boat loads of bubbles in the nutes, otherwise the roots look like overcooked spaghetti. There are plenty of riu photos showing them

Here is my last hpa roots. Grate added to keep roots off bottom. They also can be trimmed without harm. The true hpa growers can tell you, they're pretty close


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## oxanaca (Jan 11, 2013)

if you have to much trouble finding it let met know i have it written down, im having trouble finding it as well.

. im actually talking to him at the moment on another site.i just pmed him what his current formula is so if he tells me ill tell you.

it sounds to me like unless your running co2 dehumidification and high temps, and mad light, like you can cut the potassium down,
as transpiration wont be at the level where that kind of potassium is needed

his numbers for that formula were (ppm)

N 400
P 100
K 449
mg 50
ca125
S 66
FE 10.0
mn 5.0
B 5.0
ZN 5.0
Cu 1.0
moly 0.09


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## oxanaca (Jan 11, 2013)

heres a deal for you. 1/4 inch solenoids with the john guest built in. $8.50 shipped
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4-110-120VAC-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-Push-In-Connectors-N-C-120-Volt-/300838861802?_trksid=p5197.m1992&_trkparms=aid=111000&algo=REC.CURRENT&ao=1&asc=14&meid=4802660163036559958&pid=100015&prg=1006&rk=1&sd=300838861802&

you can get it in 120-Volt AC 12VDC, 24VAC, 24VDC

i chose 120ac as i hate ac adapters


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 11, 2013)

PetFlora said:


> My last 2 hpa grows were by far my best in an 18G tote- almost comparable to My DIY 21st Century F & D, but no where near as efficient- too much waste runoff without proper timing, as can only be gotten with an accumulator
> 
> I used 2 heads in early veg, 4 heads until finished.
> 
> ...



Awesome info! Love the grate idea, pun intended. Fortunately where I live it rarely frosts and rarely gets over 75 degrees in the summer. My basement is unheated so it hovers between 60 in the winter and 70 in the summer. That shouldn't be a problem. The timer I am using has on settings between .5 seconds to over a minute. Should be good for my experiment. 

I'm thinking 6 - 8 seconds on, and a couple minutes off. I will adjust as needed. I will err on the side of caution this time around. Who knows what the future holds


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 11, 2013)

oxanaca said:


> if you have to much trouble finding it let met know i have it written down, im having trouble finding it as well.
> 
> . im actually talking to him at the moment on another site.i just pmed him what his current formula is so if he tells me ill tell you.
> 
> ...


What I would like to know is does his formula take into account the increased need for mg after the stretch period is over. 

I have his original drain to waste aero formula bookmarked somewhere, will find and post it later.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 11, 2013)

oxanaca said:


> heres a deal for you. 1/4 inch solenoids with the john guest built in. $8.50 shipped
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4-110-120VAC-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-Push-In-Connectors-N-C-120-Volt-/300838861802?_trksid=p5197.m1992&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D14%26meid%3D4802660163036559958%26pid%3D100015%26prg%3D1006%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D300838861802%26
> 
> you can get it in 120-Volt AC 12VDC, 24VAC, 24VDC
> ...


Epic! Thanks

GTS


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## hammer21 (Jan 11, 2013)

Like to set the record right I am in no Means a expert never claimed to be. I just know what I have tried and what has failed any info I give is from my own experience. I can honestly say I have {One} of the best aero rigs on this forum it may even rate the top five who knows or cares. I have struggled and failed many times in all the experiments. If I did know everything I sure would not need to pick many brains on the forums. Good luck to all of you I really mean this. Without all of use trying to improve growing technics we would be dirt baggers.


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 11, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> How do they look upstairs? Amazing how fine the roots are with HP aero. Cant wait.


They fall short of true hp aero roots, but nice fishboning, which is better than spaghetti. Haha, look... I'm a root-snob...


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 11, 2013)

Here is the formula that I will be using for the bloom. Fatmans drain to waste bloom formula

NPK 4-1-4.5

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/334895-nutrient-recipes.html


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## hammer21 (Jan 11, 2013)

Thank you TB and Pet you two have influenced my projects bad news is my wife hates you two LOL


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## oxanaca (Jan 11, 2013)

the one problem with fats recipe is it uses ammonium nitrate. which im not sure how to get ahold of thanks to terrorists.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 12, 2013)

You can get it on ebay. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50lb-Ammonium-Nitrate-Technical-Grade-/130825613549?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e75d070ed

It is the potassium nitrate that they made a lot harder to get. You can get it at cropking but they charge extra and limit the amounts you can buy at one time. That's what the hydro guy by my house told me, he makes his own formulations.

http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicSupplies/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=264_268&products_id=346


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 12, 2013)

You can get it on ebay. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50lb-Ammonium-Nitrate-Technical-Grade-/130825613549?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e75d070ed

It is the potassium nitrate that they made a lot harder to get. You can get it at cropking but they charge extra and limit the amounts you can buy at one time. Still only comes to a few bucks a gallon to make it.

http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicSupplies/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=264_268&products_id=346


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## PetFlora (Jan 12, 2013)

hammer21 said:


> Thank you TB and Pet you two have influenced my projects bad news is my wife hates you two LOL


Don't blame it on me. I was trying to talk you out of it 

Although, if my environment was similar to yours, I may have conquered the demons  even without an accumulator set up, which is no guarantee either as soleniods are defective, or low tolerances, bladders in accumulators go flat and crack over time, etc


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## oxanaca (Jan 12, 2013)

interesting just bought a variety pack of 6 different chemicals, two weeks ago. and thats where my experience begun. 
i made A+B of this guys recipe and its doing well in my coir

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/120-60-300-120-60-177-2-nutrient-tutorial-or-my-thread-can-beat-up-your-thread.45906/

my plants look really good, for what theyve been thru ive had to move them 3 times.

any idea where


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 12, 2013)

oxanaca said:


> interesting just bought a variety pack of 6 different chemicals, two weeks ago. and thats where my experience begun.
> i made A+B of this guys recipe and its doing well in my coir
> 
> https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/120-60-300-120-60-177-2-nutrient-tutorial-or-my-thread-can-beat-up-your-thread.45906/
> ...


Making the fertilizer is easy. The trick is mixing the chemicals in the right order. Once you have that part down your fertilizer bill drops by 80% and you are able to use formulas specific to what you are doing. It's a beautiful thing.


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## Mike Young (Jan 12, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> Making the fertilizer is easy. The trick is mixing the chemicals in the right order. Once you have that part down your fertilizer bill drops by 80% and you are able to use formulas specific to what you are doing. It's a beautiful thing.


80% seriously? I had no idea the savings were so significant. Is there a good thread that could get me familiar with the basics? I am certainly capable of searching for myself, but sometimes it's good to cross promote.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 13, 2013)

Mike Young said:


> 80% seriously? I had no idea the savings were so significant. Is there a good thread that could get me familiar with the basics? I am certainly capable of searching for myself, but sometimes it's good to cross promote.


Back in the day over at Cannabis Culture there was a medical MJ research scientist on the Hydro forums named Fatman7574 who talked a lot about how fertilizer companies were ripping us off and that we could easily mix our own. We talked him into posting a two part formula for making Lucas formula from raw salts. We started pushing him and picking his brain for commercial recipes, but he was hesitant because he didn't know how the Fertilizer companies would react. Finally he cut loose and started posting all kinds of recipes. It became a mission for him, teaching us how to make our own fertilizers for 1/6 the cost.

He got banned from a lot of forums. Partly because he didn't get along well with certain people, but also because he was posting commercial fertilizer recipes. I believe Big Mike was paying forums to ban him. He started getting banned for really stupid things, like posting growing methods that 'might confuse beginners', stuff like that. In the end, he accomplished what he set out to do. He posted a lot of threads here on roll it up too.

I don't think I would be doing drain to waste with my aero setup if I had to pay $30 per gallon for my fertilizer. At $5 - $7 per gallon it's still hella cheap. 

I will post some of his threads.

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/268790-lucas-formula-recipe-scratch-really.html

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/fatmans-diy-nutrient-mixing-guide.20899/

https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/528660-mixing-your-own-nutrient-solutions.html

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/fatmans-diy-nutrient-mixing-guide.20899/

Anyhow, you can google fatman and nutrients and find his recipes. He posted a lot of recipes for Advanced Nutrients, General Hydroponics and Botanicare products.

He also gave recipes for things like calmag and excellent guides for things like killing root rot and building aeroponic systems. Most of his recipes are posted in ounces, so they have to be converted to grams. The only tricky part is mixing the salts in the right order. If you need help with that part just ask.

Most of the salts can be bought cheaply here:
http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicSupplies/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=264_268&zenid=7253d71451c34f67da70b9c7fceb4867

and here: 
http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicSupplies/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=264_269

Any salts that you can't find there can be found on ebay.

GTS


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 13, 2013)

I just thought his last name was "Banned" since it was written after his name everywhere...


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## oxanaca (Jan 13, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> Making the fertilizer is easy. The trick is mixing the chemicals in the right order. Once you have that part down your fertilizer bill drops by 80% and you are able to use formulas specific to what you are doing. It's a beautiful thing.


it is a beautiful thing

the first time i tryed i added potassium silicate after other ingrediants what a mess.
now my a+bs are perfectly clear . with just a few little particles in a little microscopic pile spinning around in my 5 liter Erlenmeyer flask


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 14, 2013)

oxanaca said:


> it is a beautiful thing
> 
> the first time i tryed i added potassium silicate after other ingrediants what a mess.
> now my a+bs are perfectly clear . with just a few little particles in a little microscopic pile spinning around in my 5 liter Erlenmeyer flask


First batch of Lucas I made I added the Magnesium first (it's supposed to go last) and ended up with a layer on the bottom that looked like ice. When I hit the point where the plants stopped stretching and needed more mag, instant mag deficiency. The magnesium fell out of the solution.

Live and learn.

I get the iddy biddy spinning micro-pile too when doing the micro nutrients. I have read that if you dissolve them each separately then add them slowly one by one, you dont see much of that. Either way it is pretty dang simple and it works. Amazing how little of some elements you use. Like the molybdenum. For a 6 gallon batch you just use the tiniest possible speck of molybdenum.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 14, 2013)

How much tap root should I see before I put them back onto the Aero pods? They are just starting to drop roots in my Dwc tote. 

Is taking a few days more than I anticipated. My basement is about 55 degrees cuz of a cold spell. I put a tote upside down over the clones to trap heat from the flora lamp I have them under. Makes a nice little greenhouse.


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 15, 2013)

oxanaca said:


> it is a beautiful thing
> 
> the first time i tryed i added potassium silicate after other ingrediants what a mess.
> now my a+bs are perfectly clear . with just a few little particles in a little microscopic pile spinning around in my 5 liter Erlenmeyer flask


lol, no idea why, but if not added first, silica causes some major precipitation... I am sure someone could give the scientific reason why, but it's beyond me...


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 15, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> First batch of Lucas I made I added the Magnesium first (it's supposed to go last) and ended up with a layer on the bottom that looked like ice. When I hit the point where the plants stopped stretching and needed more mag, instant mag deficiency. The magnesium fell out of the solution.
> 
> Live and learn.
> 
> I get the iddy biddy spinning micro-pile too when doing the micro nutrients. I have read that if you dissolve them each separately then add them slowly one by one, you dont see much of that. Either way it is pretty dang simple and it works. Amazing how little of some elements you use. Like the molybdenum. For a 6 gallon batch you just use the tiniest possible speck of molybdenum.


Wouldn't it be nice to have one of those lab mixers with the magnetic spinner that goes inside your pyrex?


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 15, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> How much tap root should I see before I put them back onto the Aero pods? They are just starting to drop roots in my Dwc tote.
> 
> Is taking a few days more than I anticipated. My basement is about 55 degrees cuz of a cold spell. I put a tote upside down over the clones to trap heat from the flora lamp I have them under. Makes a nice little greenhouse.


Best bet is to try to grow them in aero from the start so they don't have to suffer the transition. The method Atomizer told me of using shredded rockwool in the netcup and hand watering lightly until the roots emerge works great...


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 16, 2013)

Trichy Bastard said:


> Best bet is to try to grow them in aero from the start so they don't have to suffer the transition. The method Atomizer told me of using shredded rockwool in the netcup and hand watering lightly until the roots emerge works great...


They are at the point now where the netpots are infested with roots and they are starting to poke out here and there. Maybe I will put them back in the system tomorrow and be on with it.


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 16, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> They are at the point now where the netpots are infested with roots and they are starting to poke out here and there. Maybe I will put them back in the system tomorrow and be on with it.


good, the sooner the better imo... next time try the handwatering option in the aero, it's the best method I've used so far...


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 16, 2013)

Trichy Bastard said:


> good, the sooner the better imo... next time try the handwatering option in the aero, it's the best method I've used so far...


Yep will do. Here is what the four or five days in the DWC did. 

 

I just popped them back into the aero system. It's on!


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## PetFlora (Jan 17, 2013)

I would cover the RW cube 

I am replacing hydroton (messy) with decoration stones that I buy at Dollar Stores. Larger stones on bottom, small for the cap


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 17, 2013)

PetFlora said:


> I would cover the RW cube
> 
> I am replacing hydroton (messy) with decoration stones that I buy at Dollar Stores. Larger stones on bottom, small for the cap


I hear that. I keep using smaller and smaller netpots so I have to deal with it less and less. The shit gets everywhere. I will cover the RW cubes today.

GTS


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 19, 2013)

chemistry ma friend lol i would imagine adding the ingredients very slowly with a little heat and a mixer bar would do wonders, have any of you ever heard of plant tissue culture and how to make the nutrient solution for it, i imagine it shares a lot of the same aspects
i hope to soon be able to buy the components needed for plant tissue culture it is really cool you can keep strains of your favorite plants for extremely long periods of time in little jars and clone from them and make lots of healthy clones from species banks ultra cheaper than seeds i long run you define female plants with your desired characteristics and clone them at will to make crops of your species bank, only drawbacks are a big learning curve and costs of equipment and learning how to apply sterile aseptic technique lots of good videos on youtube , in the long run you save on buying seeds by only buying them once and keeping your best to add to species bank. i was amazed to learn this beautiful method for preserving great strains that need to be kept for the greater good for all of us, just beautiful. i love science!


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 19, 2013)

i always prefer smaller net pots and silica grow rocks "the rock that doesn't roll" it has awesome amount of surface area for beneficial bacteria and endo and ecto Mycorrhizae i think ths is crucial to any system involving a reservoir why leave the water full of food and then kill all microbial life? never made sense to me, i feel it is just fighting the natural order of things too much trying to grow sterile leaves you open for random bugs and bacteria to vector in pathogens, how is it not better to inoculate your res with the good guys first let them establish and they should be in a sense like a shield for pathogens, when it's sterile it's just that no room for error, that means following clean and sterile aseptic technique. or be victim to whatever works its way in there, lol i use synthetic botanicaire two part nutes with cal mag and great white my rez smells good barely an odor and clear as could be after two weeks with two 10 inch airstones and my plants sure as hell aren't complaining, lol


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 19, 2013)

I can appreciate your logic, however bio-film can be a pain especially in aero with clogging issues, etc. A sterile environment is easily kept with a few drops of bleach per gallon, and the microbes are not needed to do any nutrient conversions since we are already using chemical base nutrients. I am all for inoculating my gut however- but that's a whole different matter alltogether...


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 19, 2013)

Trichy Bastard said:


> I can appreciate your logic, however bio-film can be a pain especially in aero with clogging issues, etc. A sterile environment is easily kept with a few drops of bleach per gallon, and the microbes are not needed to do any nutrient conversions since we are already using chemical base nutrients. I am all for inoculating my gut however- but that's a whole different matter alltogether...


i have yet to have biofilm being a problem or even any of it really 2 weeks res is crystal clear since first change and little to no odor, and my plants are rocking out hard they look as happy as a plant could be lol i had one mister clog up and it was from a small piece of plastic i neglected to remove from the tubing when i cut it i sure found it in the mister head it fell out when i took it apart i put it back together and still have no clogging, riddle me that one batman im sure it might be more of an issue down the road going on week 5, i am willing to bet good money most issues are from light getting in your reservoir leading to excess growth of something maybe, i would love to do some experimentation with that theory when i can afford it. 
i wonder why i don't have biofilm or slime issues and i been letting my res go for longer than others have and it seems great, and i have no algae growth whatsoever, i took great care to ensure everything below the stalk is dark as could be, i would love to hear some feedback from anyone that has some experience with the biofilm and clogging and what type of filtration you use


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 19, 2013)

and remember that's nothing but nutes and bennies, no bleach or peroxide which is known to have toxic substances for stabilizing it for shelf life. hopefully i will go full term and not have issues but nothing is perfect. and from what i understand about microbiology is that a healthy population of good bacteria and fungi are essential to overpopulating the bad ones i fail to see how what i am doing isn't going to work because it sure is and and has been lol have you seen transplanting good fecal bacteria into the colon of an unhealthy population has been the most effective treatment to date to stop bad pathogens from taking over your colon and c diff kills 14,500 people a year. i don't think my proposal sounds too far fetched.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 20, 2013)

AeroPonicsWizaRd said:


> and remember that's nothing but nutes and bennies, no bleach or peroxide which is known to have toxic substances for stabilizing it for shelf life. hopefully i will go full term and not have issues but nothing is perfect. and from what i understand about microbiology is that a healthy population of good bacteria and fungi are essential to overpopulating the bad ones i fail to see how what i am doing isn't going to work because it sure is and and has been lol have you seen transplanting good fecal bacteria into the colon of an unhealthy population has been the most effective treatment to date to stop bad pathogens from taking over your colon and c diff kills 14,500 people a year. i don't think my proposal sounds too far fetched.


I normally use H2O2, but will be using bleach for my aero. Hydrogen peroxide is a strong oxydizer and a little too much can burn roots. My drip and ebb and flow setups were in strait up hydroton so they could handle quite a bit of H202. DWC has the water for a buffer. Aero has no buffer, just air and mist. Not taking a chance on burning them. 

Bleach is a weak oxidizer, so it is a lot more forgiving, but very good for absolute sterilization. Just added a bit today. 1/2 tsp for about 35 gallons. 1 tsp per 50 gallons of 7% chlorine bleach = 1 ppm chlorine, which is what most municipal systems use. You can give them that much every other day. I will add it once a week midweek. I also cover my reservoir so floaties from the air don't get in the solution and im using a 150 micron filter pre pump. I think I will get another 150 micron filter just for good measure.

So far everything is going good. They are dropping roots quickly now. Turned up the PPM tonight to right around 500. They had been sitting at about 300 ppm for the last three days. I will wait til they take off full blast then perhaps bump it up a little more, but maybe not.

Added a second halide to the room. They are now 2000 watts. Have them 3 feet over the plants for now, will drop them a bit in a few days.



Once the roots drop down a ways, I will switch from angled to strait misters. Right now I'm drenching a bit. Giving them 6 seconds every two minutes. I am going to wait and see how warm it gets in the totes before I adjust. They are pretty cool thus far. I have them very well insulated and my solution is sitting at 52 degrees.

Im stoked....


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## clydefrog (Jan 20, 2013)

Mike Young said:


> 80% seriously? I had no idea the savings were so significant. Is there a good thread that could get me familiar with the basics? I am certainly capable of searching for myself, but sometimes it's good to cross promote.


jacks peat lite 20-10-20 always gave me good results, a $40 bag will last years, and it went through my hp nozzles without a hitch. unless you actually get your feeding system to the point you are running 70-100 psi with optimal burst times and no runoff whatsoever, nutrient formulation is a waste of time imo. if you have water dripping off your roots the the plants have more food than they actually need at any one point and will just absorb what they want.


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## clydefrog (Jan 20, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> I hear that. I keep using smaller and smaller netpots so I have to deal with it less and less. The shit gets everywhere. I will cover the RW cubes today.
> 
> GTS


go to your local home depot-ish place and buy a neoprene floormat. i used a holesaw to punch out circles the size of my netpots. cut a slit in them and they will support your little guys. its a little work but when you run lots and lots of little plants its worth the effort.


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 20, 2013)

AeroPonicsWizaRd said:


> i have yet to have biofilm being a problem or even any of it really 2 weeks res is crystal clear since first change and little to no odor, and my plants are rocking out hard they look as happy as a plant could be lol i had one mister clog up and it was from a small piece of plastic i neglected to remove from the tubing when i cut it i sure found it in the mister head it fell out when i took it apart i put it back together and still have no clogging, riddle me that one batman im sure it might be more of an issue down the road going on week 5, i am willing to bet good money most issues are from light getting in your reservoir leading to excess growth of something maybe, i would love to do some experimentation with that theory when i can afford it.
> i wonder why i don't have biofilm or slime issues and i been letting my res go for longer than others have and it seems great, and i have no algae growth whatsoever, i took great care to ensure everything below the stalk is dark as could be, i would love to hear some feedback from anyone that has some experience with the biofilm and clogging and what type of filtration you use


I got outright root rot without an oxidizer, even with peroxide I did due to it needing to be topped up so often. I use R.O. water however- and use 6 drops of bleach to get it back to municiple chlorine levels now. If you are already using tapwater (not recommended) then that may be why. Also ambient temps have alot to do with it I am sure- my temps are tropical warm year round..

I use a 1 micron filter myself... Post pump, pre accumulator... Also used food grade 35% peroxide which is shelf stable and uses no preservatives- the bleach at 6 drops/gallon doesn't worry me much, but I am sure you can make a pure version with some pool sodium hypochlorite granules diluted down... Atomizer once mentioned using a bleach made for sterilizing baby's bottles with no additives if I remember correctly...


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 20, 2013)

AeroPonicsWizaRd said:


> and remember that's nothing but nutes and bennies, no bleach or peroxide which is known to have toxic substances for stabilizing it for shelf life. hopefully i will go full term and not have issues but nothing is perfect. and from what i understand about microbiology is that a healthy population of good bacteria and fungi are essential to overpopulating the bad ones i fail to see how what i am doing isn't going to work because it sure is and and has been lol have you seen transplanting good fecal bacteria into the colon of an unhealthy population has been the most effective treatment to date to stop bad pathogens from taking over your colon and c diff kills 14,500 people a year. i don't think my proposal sounds too far fetched.


yup, I am a huge proponent of keeping good intestinal microbes.. I make my own kefir from the ancient kefir grains... Contains 40 strains and 1/4 cup contains over 1 trillion cells- more living microbes than a whole bottle of the best commercial probiotic products... Also pickle my own veggies/saurkraut with sea salt water cultured...  
I take a differentapproach with my res- I am minimalist, and run completely sterile- no good guys, or bad guys...


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 20, 2013)

clydefrog said:


> go to your local home depot-ish place and buy a neoprene floormat. i used a holesaw to punch out circles the size of my netpots. cut a slit in them and they will support your little guys. its a little work but when you run lots and lots of little plants its worth the effort.


In order to stay legal I have to stay under a number of plants. Right now I can grow 45 plants total. That includes rooted cuttings.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 20, 2013)

Trichy Bastard said:


> I got outright root rot without an oxidizer, even with peroxide I did due to it needing to be topped up so often. I use R.O. water however- and use 6 drops of bleach to get it back to municiple chlorine levels now. If you are already using tapwater (not recommended) then that may be why. Also ambient temps have alot to do with it I am sure- my temps are tropical warm year round..
> 
> I use a 1 micron filter myself... Post pump, pre accumulator... Also used food grade 35% peroxide which is shelf stable and uses no preservatives- the bleach at 6 drops/gallon doesn't worry me much, but I am sure you can make a pure version with some pool sodium hypochlorite granules diluted down... Atomizer once mentioned using a bleach made for sterilizing baby's bottles with no additives if I remember correctly...


I am using tap water. It is coming out at 25 ppm right now so it is essentially RO water. In the summer it comes out at 30-35 PPM.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 20, 2013)

Trichy Bastard said:


> good, the sooner the better imo... next time try the handwatering option in the aero, it's the best method I've used so far...


What if you put in some drip stakes and just did a slow timed drip until the roots dropped? Wouldn't that essentially be the same thing? I love automation.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 21, 2013)

I noticed a root with a dried spot, like damping off. That tote had a fan blowing directly on the plant. I think the air blew in through the hydroton and dried it out a bit. Either that or it got too warm. I covered the netpots. I have a thermometer hanging in one of the totes so I can keep an eye on the temperatures in the root zone. It is sitting at 74.4 degrees with one 1000 watt burning. When I had two HD going at once it must have been in the mid 80s in the root zone, was very warm, though didnt have a thermometer in there yet. I want it below 72, preferably below 70. Until I get the temps under control, I will burn one light, then the other. I am alternating the two halides, 12 hours each. The dried root is defiantly not from damping off, which is caused by the dreaded pythium. I am using bleach to keep everything sterile.

My solution is sitting at 54 degrees. I think it's time to fire up a chiller. My plan is to chill my solution down to about 40 degrees, then adjust my spray timing to bring the temperatures down. The room gets really warm with two halide lamps running. They are not in cool tubes. The room runs a lot cooler during flowering cuz all three HPS are in tubes.

Right now I am cleaning the chiller, running 1 gallon white vinegar mixed with two gallons water backwards through it overnight to dissolve out all the salt buildup. I will fire it up in the morning and hook it up to the reservoir. I will also double or even triple the insulation tomorrow.

From here on out, my spray timings will revolve around the temperatures in the pods. When I find a combination of timing and solution temperature that keeps the pods below 70 degrees, I will stay there until time to flower. I have done a lot of research on pod cooling, here on rollitup, and on the internet. Seems pod cooling is the holy grail of HP Aeroponics.



Any hints or comments are welcome.


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 22, 2013)

i had problems with getting too wet for fine hair growth and increasing the psi helped me a lot increased time for spray and decreased how fast they got wet worked for me the biggest trick i noticed was to ensure saturation until roots established through and then started backing off the length of time for misting and making them indirect to the roots, all i can say is i never seen such interior growth so fast on 4 and a half week old plants they are getting huge fast!!!!


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 22, 2013)

tuning tuning tuning


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 22, 2013)

lol hell no for tap water and aero, ro or distilled mostly dist distilled water sets the standard for clean, and yeah i know what bleach is and how oxidizers work i just have no need them with inoculated res and air stones, anyways my concern was more for heavy metals and other than sodium hypochlorate, the ones they use to stabilize the products for shelve life, lol if you don't believe me try it yourself sometime i have continued to have crystal clear water,or i must be crazy then lol oh well tesla was crazy but everyone was in awe when he gave the world the ac grid,and then we forgot about him as we all do so well with everyone important to humanity and our future, and sure as hell never forget that fucking ugly stupid fucking snooky, im sure 10,000 brilliant peoples of our past would be doing barrel rolls in their fucking graves if they had the slightest idea of what were doing as a whole with our technology of today and absolutely no cohesiveness to improve. bejing's air pollution is at a costs of our need for cheap chinese shit don't get me wrong i love chinese shit, but nothing comes without a price, everything in life is a double edge sword all i can think is that sterilizing a res all the time could be more costly then to just put something in it to grow that does not hurt your plants and keeps other shit from growing natures doing the cleaning for me , lit. i make sure my res temp and room temp stay within certain range and i don't use my chambers as a res, been a miracle thus far hope it continues to impress me is all i can hope for, might sound crazy but i struggled with this organic or sterile bullshit forever in my mind and man just this seemed like a good idea to me and it works bad ass for cheap, ill show you what i do with it and yall be the judge i got the cleanest res i seen it looks like spring water and i've always had trouble arguing with positive results lol


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 22, 2013)

tap has pythium in it! and ten billion other bacteria and viruses and i am a firm believer any pathogen from tap in that harsh environment is mutating to cope with the increased chlorination and in theory is hardening it to survive better in harsher places maybe your reservoir, bacteria do it all the time for antibiotics. and fast ! scary shit, our fear of germs is leading to antimicrobial everything and breeds super germs, google it , it's worth a google.. just pure science, i don't want to hear it as much as the next guy but my mind won't allow me to overlook it.


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 22, 2013)

lol my tap is 279 parts per shit grows house plants great lots of minerals and calcium


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 22, 2013)

AeroPonicsWizaRd said:


> View attachment 2491197tuning tuning tuning


Very nice. How are your root zone temperatures?

One more thing I will do today is get some insulation tape. Also, I am using black tubing. I have white, that would cool my solution somewhat also.

The pump I am using has adjustable pressure settings. Perhaps I will turn the pressure up further to make the mist finer, allowing me to mist longer. Right now I am using angles sprayers that spray directly on the netpots.


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## hammer21 (Jan 22, 2013)

Any progress pics green


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 22, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> What if you put in some drip stakes and just did a slow timed drip until the roots dropped? Wouldn't that essentially be the same thing? I love automation.


perhaps, but you'll have to put the drip on a timer, and the other thing is if you're outside, the rockwool will dry at different rates each day depending on the sun/wind conditions, but indoors it should remain a pretty stable evaporation process unless your temps/humidity change greatly from day to day. it's a little learning curve with the rockwool, you don't want to overwater, but you don't want the delicate roots to dry out completely either. Perhaps Atomizer's method of using a syringe to inject the nutes near the bottom of the rockwool in the netpot work best as the roots soon learn where the water is and start growing downward into the chamber...


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 22, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> I noticed a root with a dried spot, like damping off. That tote had a fan blowing directly on the plant. I think the air blew in through the hydroton and dried it out a bit. Either that or it got too warm. I covered the netpots. I have a thermometer hanging in one of the totes so I can keep an eye on the temperatures in the root zone. It is sitting at 74.4 degrees with one 1000 watt burning. When I had two HD going at once it must have been in the mid 80s in the root zone, was very warm, though didnt have a thermometer in there yet. I want it below 72, preferably below 70. Until I get the temps under control, I will burn one light, then the other. I am alternating the two halides, 12 hours each. The dried root is defiantly not from damping off, which is caused by the dreaded pythium. I am using bleach to keep everything sterile.
> 
> My solution is sitting at 54 degrees. I think it's time to fire up a chiller. My plan is to chill my solution down to about 40 degrees, then adjust my spray timing to bring the temperatures down. The room gets really warm with two halide lamps running. They are not in cool tubes. The room runs a lot cooler during flowering cuz all three HPS are in tubes.
> 
> ...


Yes 65-70f max is optimal. Chilling the nutes works ok if your tote is insulated, otherwise the meager sprayings don't offset so much, and once the air in the pod is saturated there is not much evaporative cooling taking place. The best way imo, is to recirculate water through your chiller into an ice chest and run your water lines through some coils of tubing in the cooled water like a "water bath". Then you get cooled nutes, and don't have to run the salts through your chiller nor do you have to worry about getting enough nute flow through the chiller to keep it running properly without freezing up.


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 22, 2013)

AeroPonicsWizaRd said:


> lol hell no for tap water and aero, ro or distilled mostly dist distilled water sets the standard for clean, and yeah i know what bleach is and how oxidizers work i just have no need them with inoculated res and air stones, anyways my concern was more for heavy metals and other than sodium hypochlorate, the ones they use to stabilize the products for shelve life, lol if you don't believe me try it yourself sometime i have continued to have crystal clear water,or i must be crazy then lol oh well tesla was crazy but everyone was in awe when he gave the world the ac grid,and then we forgot about him as we all do so well with everyone important to humanity and our future, and sure as hell never forget that fucking ugly stupid fucking snooky, im sure 10,000 brilliant peoples of our past would be doing barrel rolls in their fucking graves if they had the slightest idea of what were doing as a whole with our technology of today and absolutely no cohesiveness to improve. bejing's air pollution is at a costs of our need for cheap chinese shit don't get me wrong i love chinese shit, but nothing comes without a price, everything in life is a double edge sword all i can think is that sterilizing a res all the time could be more costly then to just put something in it to grow that does not hurt your plants and keeps other shit from growing natures doing the cleaning for me , lit. i make sure my res temp and room temp stay within certain range and i don't use my chambers as a res, been a miracle thus far hope it continues to impress me is all i can hope for, might sound crazy but i struggled with this organic or sterile bullshit forever in my mind and man just this seemed like a good idea to me and it works bad ass for cheap, ill show you what i do with it and yall be the judge i got the cleanest res i seen it looks like spring water and i've always had trouble arguing with positive results lol


Good for you, I'd prefer the Natural method myself too, but my main issue out here is heat, and bleach was the only way to address the issue simply and easily. If your nozzles don't eventually plug up with bio-film or anything, then I would like to try your innoculation...  In the end, I always believe that mother nature has things right, and the further man gets away from nature, the weirder things get. I defiantly oppose GMO food (I love technology and am glad we are exploring it, however they are insane to be letting this stuff out into the wild with so little testing... Alas quick corporate profits is always the driving factor...)


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 22, 2013)

AeroPonicsWizaRd said:


> tap has pythium in it! and ten billion other bacteria and viruses and i am a firm believer any pathogen from tap in that harsh environment is mutating to cope with the increased chlorination and in theory is hardening it to survive better in harsher places maybe your reservoir, bacteria do it all the time for antibiotics. and fast ! scary shit, our fear of germs is leading to antimicrobial everything and breeds super germs, google it , it's worth a google.. just pure science, i don't want to hear it as much as the next guy but my mind won't allow me to overlook it.


I absolutely agree... The odd thing is the United States uses billions of tons of antibiotics each year, and 80% of that is used in CAFO animal feed to increase growth- very short sighted. I buy mostly all organic food, because the farming practices are better for the planet, etc. etc. etc...


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 22, 2013)

AeroPonicsWizaRd said:


> lol my tap is 279 parts per shit grows house plants great lots of minerals and calcium


only issue, is you likely don't know the ratio of the composition, which leaves variables. Furthermore, the ppm likely changes throughout the year. Many places have vastly different levels between summer and winter. Lastly, if a good total starting ppm for aero is 150ppm, you already are running hot, and haven't even addressed the other minerals and nutrients over calcium and magnesium... Just some thoughts I had to have back when deciding to go with R.O. water or not...


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 22, 2013)

AeroPonicsWizaRd said:


> tap has pythium in it! and ten billion other bacteria and viruses and i am a firm believer any pathogen from tap in that harsh environment is mutating to cope with the increased chlorination and in theory is hardening it to survive better in harsher places maybe your reservoir, bacteria do it all the time for antibiotics. and fast ! scary shit, our fear of germs is leading to antimicrobial everything and breeds super germs, google it , it's worth a google.. just pure science, i don't want to hear it as much as the next guy but my mind won't allow me to overlook it.


Municipal water at 1 ppm chlorine will kill all pythium. Pathogens cannot mutate to tolerate chlorine. My tap water is essentially RO water.

Of course low PPM tap water is not always good. My friend lives in a little town that has a municipal well. His tap water comes out at 40 or 50 ppm, which should be good for his DWC setup. He was all excited when he first tested it. After a couple weeks the plants started showing discoloration and definite signs of deficiency. I have read that well water can contain weird exotic minerals in it. Something in his water was locking out a trace nutrient. He switched to rain water and the deficiency disappeared. 

Ya never know.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 22, 2013)

hammer21 said:


> Any progress pics green


Doing some changes tonight, then pics.

1. Add chiller
2. Change from black tubing to white
3. Insulating the crap out of the pods
4. Put the HID lamps in cool tubes
5. Shorten the distance (tubing) from the pump to the sprayers

That's about all I can think of right now.

My main goal right now is cooling the pods.


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## hammer21 (Jan 22, 2013)

My next thing I would like to try is a stainless finned heat exchanger in my reservoir with a small water proof fan. This would chill my air being pumped to my tubes and then I could reduce the amount of spray cycle times. Right now if I increase my cycle times beyond 5 mins and less than 10 seconds spray my tube air temps reach about 72-75 degrees. Right now every 4 minutes for 15 seconds spray keeps air temp in tubes 66-68 degrees. Chiller is key to success. Also really look into a pelican case you my be able to pick one up cheap on eBay. Sealed system is also key.


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 22, 2013)

moisture probe can solve that, i was planning on programming a microcontroller to do something like that myself i use a mcu to control my lights right now with a 40 amp solid state relay and i use same setup for cycle timer works bad ass, im working on a lcd programmable cycle timer with intregral calender function and programmable dosing with peristallic pumps with Real time clock, imagine a system that does your aero on a programmed feeding schedule and auto ph adjustment im talking take a week off and not worry about it, i made prototype shit with my engineer father years ago what was primitive by today's standards and it rocked, backlit color screen with android interface style menu system for far less than 5000 usd lol it can be a reality i hope to someday market such a device for an affordable price i love growing and it's like carl sagan said if your in love with something you want to tell the world about it.


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 22, 2013)

you would not believe how effective rain towers are pump your fluid to the top of a tall tube and let it rain down through the air like out of a shower head,it's all about increasing the surface to be cooled by the air passing by, people use it to remove heat from fancy water cooled rot rodded pc's, i have experience with this technique it works! i had 2 water cooled pc's best method for low maintenance and simplicity at the costs of a few watts from a very small aquarium pump to recirculate it and it aerates the water, because air stones and fine holes DO NOT have anything on "flooming" the water where u put a small pump in the reservoir facing upwards and the large meniscus formed by the water being forced upwards increases surface area of the water and hence ability of the solution to accept the o2. there are plenty of articles that show how it is way more efficient and way less energy then compressing air to be pushed in any volume to create tiny bubbles and mildy increasing the surface area vs flooming's large meniscus, it's science, and it's a beautiful solution to an age old problem. i had no need for cooling i hoped by using a "plastic beer cooler" i mean fancy "thermally protective nutrient vessel" lol for a res it regulates my temps well i have a water probe to monitor the temp and it's always within perfect parameters for my taste. ultimately you got to use what works for you, so many variables would be crazy to assume same thing can work for everyone with same results i love to see everyone's interest your all a bunch of tinkerer's like me i wish we had physical growing clubs


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 22, 2013)

after seeing the same thing dwc city water high ppm 200 plus not far from me and his whole crop was screaming at me when i seen it beautiful genetics and they all looked like hell lol and then he got horrible slime pythium root rotted evil roots and could not control it no matter what he was a total askhole would not listen to what others had to say to fix it then cried like a bitch when his biggest yield with 60 plants was like 6 oz's not even kidding and he spent thousands on everything he thought would just be the best and could not possibly go wrong... forget that logic this kid thought he was gonna do high pressure aero with an aquarium pump... hmm ,you can have every resource on earth if you can't use them properly it don't mean shit! if you cant afford cheap RO water system or distilled water stay away from water culture it will haunt your sleep trust me


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 22, 2013)

oh yeah and why in the hell would you ever run nutrient water through other than black tubing ? that's a serious mistake might as well put a skylight in your reservoir lol


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 22, 2013)

Trichy Bastard said:


> total starting ppm for aero is 150ppm, you already are running hot.


 lol i don't use tap for water culture anything not my style i like the trouble free life


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 22, 2013)

i would try insulation around the chambers insulation works wonders


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 23, 2013)

AeroPonicsWizaRd said:


> i would try insulation around the chambers insulation works wonders


I insulated the bottom of the pods. Will put more insulation on the sides and top tomorrow. Have solution chilled at 42 degrees. Lights are now in cool tubes. Room temperature is at 73 degrees now. The pods are at 64 degrees now. Yay.

Wish my solenoids would hurry up and get here.


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 23, 2013)

AeroPonicsWizaRd said:


> moisture probe can solve that, i was planning on programming a microcontroller to do something like that myself i use a mcu to control my lights right now with a 40 amp solid state relay and i use same setup for cycle timer works bad ass, im working on a lcd programmable cycle timer with intregral calender function and programmable dosing with peristallic pumps with Real time clock, imagine a system that does your aero on a programmed feeding schedule and auto ph adjustment im talking take a week off and not worry about it, i made prototype shit with my engineer father years ago what was primitive by today's standards and it rocked, backlit color screen with android interface style menu system for far less than 5000 usd lol it can be a reality i hope to someday market such a device for an affordable price i love growing and it's like carl sagan said if your in love with something you want to tell the world about it.


Just Size your rez in a DTW situation for a weeks worth of spray, -then take it off too- I certainly do... It would be cool however to make an automated rez refiller that could control the ppm and ph via phone app, and a webcam looking at the plants... You could pretty much take off the whole grow if you are familiar with your system and strain... 

lol, Carl Sagan, one of my heroes... Now I have that damn Cosmos theme song by Vangelis stuck in my head- bahahahah...


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 23, 2013)

AeroPonicsWizaRd said:


> oh yeah and why in the hell would you ever run nutrient water through other than black tubing ? that's a serious mistake might as well put a skylight in your reservoir lol


yeah, you're inviting algea. Also, only the black John guest tubing has UV stabilisers. Better idea is to put the black tubing in a conduit, perhaps a slightly larger diameter white tubing, or even better, some sort of foam surround tubing like they use to insulate water pipes or roll bars. It's super cheap at the local hardware, and they even have some made for smaller diameter tubing...


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 23, 2013)

Trichy Bastard said:


> yeah, you're inviting algea. Also, only the black John guest tubing has UV stabilisers. Better idea is to put the black tubing in a conduit, perhaps a slightly larger diameter white tubing, or even better, some sort of foam surround tubing like they use to insulate water pipes or roll bars. It's super cheap at the local hardware, and they even have some made for smaller diameter tubing...


The white tubing I have is John Guest. Fear of algae is the reason I ultimately went with the black tubing. I will get some insulation tape today and wrap my tubing with it. 

The 24 hours with two lights and hot room did a number on my roots. Most of the original roots turned yellowish brownish. Soon as I addressed the heat, new white roots started popping again. They have tripled size in a few days. They definitely do not like really warm pods, even with drenching.

The combination of cool tubes, better insulation and chilled reservoir did the trick. Today I will insulate them to death and be done with that part of it. I am beginning to see why people say using dead chest freezers is the way to go. Makes cooling a non issue I suppose. Ice chests would be good too. A while back I saw an ad on Craigslist where a guy had hundreds of blue igloo 15 gallon ice chests, selling them for $8 apiece. Next time I see something like that I will pick up a bunch of them.


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 23, 2013)

Nice, sounds like you're getting it under control... Heat issues were my biggest issue, and now my designs focus on dealing with the heat head on... My newest chamber design will be made from 2" foamboard and has cooling lines running through the interior...


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## SpectatorFernFirm (Jan 23, 2013)

oxanaca said:


> ive only grown basil in my system so far, but ive heard alot of people say they start at around 400ppm and work there way up based on the strain they are working with. one menber on here recently told me they were reaching 1000ppm at the end of flowering. i guess you kind of have to just tweak it until things are optimal.
> 
> i was at 500ppm with my basil and they looked great, before the power went out and my plants died.
> 
> im really into this whole hp aero thing myself. im thinking the only way this things gonna work out for me though is if i can learn to machine my own 0.025" and 0.016" stainless steel impingement nozzles


Why wouldn't u guys just turn them into flood tables during power outage? I mean I am thinking of trying this and power loss was a worry but then I figured in case I lose power I'll cap the ends and put enough water in there to keep all roots wet. In a few hours tops you have power again so not like you'll have root rot... Idk that's just my plan if i was in that scenario. Don't see why that wouldn't work. Gl with future grows. 

P.S. 
im planning on trying this method with strawberries! Wanna try and get apple size strawberries! Omg that would be INSANE!!!


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 24, 2013)

SpectatorFernFirm said:


> Why wouldn't u guys just turn them into flood tables during power outage? I mean I am thinking of trying this and power loss was a worry but then I figured in case I lose power I'll cap the ends and put enough water in there to keep all roots wet. In a few hours tops you have power again so not like you'll have root rot... Idk that's just my plan if i was in that scenario. Don't see why that wouldn't work. Gl with future grows.
> 
> P.S.
> im planning on trying this method with strawberries! Wanna try and get apple size strawberries! Omg that would be INSANE!!!


Well, if the power did go out, the lights would go out too so they would stop transpiring. That would give you an hour or more to do something. I would probably grab a spray bottle and start misting the roots.


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 24, 2013)

i made battery backup with a mechanical relay, inverter and industrial johnson control charging controller i got from my bro for scrap,and a use a 12 volt power supply to keep your Normally Open relay closed when the power is on and switch over to the inverter when the power cuts out i have something for the pump for now and working on it for lights down the road. did that make sense pretty smoked up right now lol


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 24, 2013)

Trichy Bastard said:


> Better idea is to put the black tubing in a conduit, perhaps a slightly larger diameter white tubing, or even better, some sort of foam surround tubing like they use to insulate water pipes or roll bars. It's super cheap at the local hardware, and they even have some made for smaller diameter tubing...


 great idea with conduit line sheathing and totally corecto mucho about the black being only uv resistant one and they also make thin wall and thick wall 1/4 inch OD for higher pressure ldpe tubing i learned its better to use the high pressure line for my system if the standard stuff gets bent and has stress lines it will fatigue and fail with a jet of high pressure water stream at the unfortunate spot, lucky mine was in the tub diagnosed it right away with a camera from my security system watching the pressure gauge at my desk cut a new piece of tubing and it was back up in seconds thank the weed gods and john guest style fittings lol


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 24, 2013)

not all nutes meter the same i think of it like gun powders you got to start slow with what ever random nutes ur using i start at 200 ppm with botanicaire gns17 and they look great and start ramping up the dose slowly if you see gnarly leaves start to form twisted and cut looking then add more water to res or dump it run just distilled for a bit then back to nutes but lower then what burned them obviously lol as plants use water ppm will rise with loss of water so equals increase in ppm if they drink faster then they feed, and careful how long you go between ranges i seen people nute up seeing deficiencies and then bring ph back to bio availability range and nuke em with nutes when they got back to 5.5 and the plants could start ion exchange again efficiently, i usually just add ro water or distilled and bring it back to 5.5 - 5.8 and try to not let it go above 6.5 and mine look great everyone has such darticle veryifferent variables that come into play from g room to g room, it's what works for you ultimately but the better informed you are friends the better you do, knowledge is power. i got to dig out a link i found in cannibis culture for aeroponics and weed and it was a good informative. aeroponic supersonic is the name if you haven't seen it already.


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 24, 2013)

running coolant lines is cool idea too i heard of this fella running em through a small fridge in a radiator and pumped em through a coil in his res im sure using it to cool chamber would be elite.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 24, 2013)

AeroPonicsWizaRd said:


> i made battery backup with a mechanical relay, inverter and industrial johnson control charging controller i got from my bro for scrap,and a use a 12 volt power supply to keep your Normally Open relay closed when the power is on and switch over to the inverter when the power cuts out i have something for the pump for now and working on it for lights down the road. did that make sense pretty smoked up right now lol


Wow, cool idea with the relay. All my components are 12v.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 24, 2013)

Here is a plant with new roots. Root development is still slow.



This is regrowth after the initial roots turned brown from 24 hours of hot hot chamber. I'm slowly, patiently chugging along. Soon as my solenoids arrive I will re-do my timings. I am thinking about going with the straight sprayers that spray down, instead of the angled ones that spray directly onto the netpots.l


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 25, 2013)

Tonight I changed the sprayers from angled to straight. Now they spray straight down and not directly onto the netpot. That means that the roots now only get the floating mist. We will see what this does.

My pod temperature immediately dropped by 2 1/2 degrees when I changed sprayers. Apparently the mist being sprayed into the air and not onto the netpot cools the inside of the pod better. That's a good thing to know.

Another thing I noticed is that there is a three degree temperature difference between the pod closest to the pump and the one furthest away. This has to be due to the fact that the tubing is warming up between sprays. I need to get off my ass and insulate my tubing. I suspect it would drop temps in the pods a couple more degrees.

Right now my solution is at 40 degrees. I don't want to stress out my chiller at that temperature too much longer. More insulation.


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 25, 2013)

SpectatorFernFirm said:


> Why wouldn't u guys just turn them into flood tables during power outage? I mean I am thinking of trying this and power loss was a worry but then I figured in case I lose power I'll cap the ends and put enough water in there to keep all roots wet. In a few hours tops you have power again so not like you'll have root rot... Idk that's just my plan if i was in that scenario. Don't see why that wouldn't work. Gl with future grows.
> 
> P.S.
> im planning on trying this method with strawberries! Wanna try and get apple size strawberries! Omg that would be INSANE!!!


Root rot isn't the only issue, if you don't aererate the liquid the plants will drown in not too long. Also, soaking the roots would kill off all the root hairs, and set you back for days. The accumulator and 12v battery do the trick perfectly, and at no penalty, so it's a solved issue for me in my mind...


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 25, 2013)

AeroPonicsWizaRd said:


> not all nutes meter the same i think of it like gun powders you got to start slow with what ever random nutes ur using i start at 200 ppm with botanicaire gns17 and they look great and start ramping up the dose slowly if you see gnarly leaves start to form twisted and cut looking then add more water to res or dump it run just distilled for a bit then back to nutes but lower then what burned them obviously lol as plants use water ppm will rise with loss of water so equals increase in ppm if they drink faster then they feed, and careful how long you go between ranges i seen people nute up seeing deficiencies and then bring ph back to bio availability range and nuke em with nutes when they got back to 5.5 and the plants could start ion exchange again efficiently, i usually just add ro water or distilled and bring it back to 5.5 - 5.8 and try to not let it go above 6.5 and mine look great everyone has such darticle veryifferent variables that come into play from g room to g room, it's what works for you ultimately but the better informed you are friends the better you do, knowledge is power. i got to dig out a link i found in cannibis culture for aeroponics and weed and it was a good informative. aeroponic supersonic is the name if you haven't seen it already.


Man I love DTW... Don't miss any of this balancing act - never looking back!


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## Trichy Bastard (Jan 25, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> Tonight I changed the sprayers from angled to straight. Now they spray straight down and not directly onto the netpot. That means that the roots now only get the floating mist. We will see what this does.
> 
> My pod temperature immediately dropped by 2 1/2 degrees when I changed sprayers. Apparently the mist being sprayed into the air and not onto the netpot cools the inside of the pod better. That's a good thing to know.
> 
> ...


I ran my JBJ Arctica at 35 degrees for 3 months without any issues... The electric bill was another story... haha. Yep- insulate! insulation is key in all of this...


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 25, 2013)

Trichy Bastard said:


> I ran my JBJ Arctica at 35 degrees for 3 months without any issues... The electric bill was another story... haha. Yep- insulate! insulation is key in all of this...


I insulated the shit out of the pods. They are now running at 61 degrees. They are going so nicely now that I turned my chiller up from 40 to 50 degrees. I am running pretty high spray times now, 30 seconds on 2 minutes off. I will adjust my spray times down until I am at 65 degrees. Slowly but surely getting there.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 31, 2013)

they are now at 62 degrees. they like the cooler range of temps. They also like longer spray times while they are developing roots. Im sitting at about 350 ppm right now. in a day or two I will start turning up the ppms and they should take off. Will have some pics soon.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Feb 1, 2013)

I have finally gotten to the stage where everything is stable and they are starting to take off. Here is what I have learned.

Insulation of the pods is key. I double wrapped all of the pods top to bottom with bubble wrap type insulation. This is absolutely necessary. Triple wrapping them would be even better 

The roots do not like temperatures above 68 degrees. I read on forums that the ideal range for pod temperature is between 62 and 72 degrees. Some academic papers I read said ideal was between 54 and 72 degrees. My experience is this, anything over 68 degrees and you are playing with fire. I could not keep the roots white above that temperature. Try as I might, they kept turning yellow or brown at those temperatures. They DEFINITELY dont like being over 72....they up and die at those temperatures. 

By messing with my chiller and spray times, I got them down to 62-64 degrees and the roots started popping everywhere. I also increased the spray times up to 30 seconds on 2 minutes off. With the way my system is built and insulated, controlling temps is a dance between insulation, spray times and solution temperatures. If I want shorter spray times, I have to turn my chiller down. Right now my solution is 54 degrees and the root zone temperature hovers between 61.5 and 63 degrees. 

Because I was going through so much solution with the longer spray times, I put a 10 gallon reservoir between my system and the drain. It has an auto-top off system using my original 50 gallon reservoir barrel. I am going with recirculating until I have a lot of roots. Im going to put in a ball valve and bypass system so I can continue using the small reservoir when I go back to drain to waste. That way I'm only chilling 10 gallons of water at a time. Much easier on my chiller. This gives me the option of recirculating or draining to waste whenever I choose. I can also use it to drain out my reservoir when I flush out the system.

One thing that helped them drop roots faster was pouring a measuring cup of solution through each netpot once a day. The mist is so fine that it didn't even penetrate the hydroton and the rockwool was drying out. Once I have a bit more root, it wont be an issue any longer.

I just turned the PPM up to about 510 this morning. Once they start taking off in earnest, I will turn them up to about 550 or 600 ppm, and lock it in until I flip em.

I killed the roots two or three times figuring out all this cooling shit. I have it down now. Here are some new pics. Each of the four plants are now bursting out with new roots.
 

These little aquarium fish nets are awesome for dipping out floaties and little crap from your reservoir. A must have for HP aero or DWC.


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## jamesvagabond (Feb 3, 2013)

Trichy Bastard said:


> Nice, sounds like you're getting it under control... Heat issues were my biggest issue, and now my designs focus on dealing with the heat head on... My newest chamber design will be made from 2" foamboard and has cooling lines running through the interior...


Be careful of polystyrene! I was looking into using it as a cheaper alternative to HDPE, but searched its MSDS toxicity info, and came across this article: http://www.ejnet.org/plastics/polystyrene/health.html . Acidic solutions will cause styrene to leach into the solution, which could be having an adverse affect on the plant's physiology. If the roots are able to uptake styrene through the roots, or its off-gassing vapors through the stomata, then you'd be smoking a neurotoxin. 

"A 1988 survey published by the Foundation for Advancements in Science and Education also found styrene in human fatty tissue with a frequency of 100% at levels from 8 to 350 nanograms/gram (ng/g). The 350 ng/g level is one third of levels known to cause neurotoxic symptoms.[5] determined that Styrofoam drinking leach Styrofoam into the liquids they contain. The cups apparently lose weight during the time they are at use. The studies showed that tea with lemon produced the most marked change in the weight of the foam cup.[1]"

Granted this is talking about drinking cups, but the foam boards are polystyrene as well and we'd be seeing the same effects since we are using a far more chemically complex solution than just tea with lemon in it. It is definitely something to think about. Keep medicine medicine, not poison. This comes as a disappointment to me because I was excited by the potential to save 700 dollars in chamber materials. I think hospital bills are a bit more though, and sorry obama I am not getting health care. Earth is a far less invasive and destructive doctor than any hospital.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Feb 3, 2013)

Question, what pod and solution temps are people running? What methods of insulation and cooling are people using?

My roots are growing by about 50&#8453; every day now, but still slow growth above ground.


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## Trichy Bastard (Feb 7, 2013)

jamesvagabond said:


> Be careful of polystyrene! I was looking into using it as a cheaper alternative to HDPE, but searched its MSDS toxicity info, and came across this article: http://www.ejnet.org/plastics/polystyrene/health.html . Acidic solutions will cause styrene to leach into the solution, which could be having an adverse affect on the plant's physiology. If the roots are able to uptake styrene through the roots, or its off-gassing vapors through the stomata, then you'd be smoking a neurotoxin.
> 
> "A 1988 survey published by the Foundation for Advancements in Science and Education also found styrene in human fatty tissue with a frequency of 100% at levels from 8 to 350 nanograms/gram (ng/g). The 350 ng/g level is one third of levels known to cause neurotoxic symptoms.[5] determined that Styrofoam drinking leach Styrofoam into the liquids they contain. The cups apparently lose weight during the time they are at use. The studies showed that tea with lemon produced the most marked change in the weight of the foam cup.[1]"
> 
> Granted this is talking about drinking cups, but the foam boards are polystyrene as well and we'd be seeing the same effects since we are using a far more chemically complex solution than just tea with lemon in it. It is definitely something to think about. Keep medicine medicine, not poison. This comes as a disappointment to me because I was excited by the potential to save 700 dollars in chamber materials. I think hospital bills are a bit more though, and sorry obama I am not getting health care. Earth is a far less invasive and destructive doctor than any hospital.


Well, I am completely encasing the foamboard in fiberglass- like a surfboard, so that should keep me separate... Hoping the epoxy will be inert enough once cured?


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## Trichy Bastard (Feb 7, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> Question, what pod and solution temps are people running? What methods of insulation and cooling are people using?
> 
> My roots are growing by about 50&#8453; every day now, but still slow growth above ground.


I think you are possibly overwatering your netcups... Try doing just a small squirt of water- just enough to keep them alive, but a small enough amount that the roots don't get soaked. Now is the time where you are going to notice you'll not get the extra-fast aero growth due to your not being true aero and watering so much- possibly... On th other hand- considering that this isn't true aero, you might just benefit from more water, as often people with the "soakponics" version report better results with more frequent watering... Try both ways and see which helps growth... Either way, your doing pretty good man, it could definitely be worse!


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Mar 20, 2013)

root zones temps have been constant around 68 to 72 and remember its cold where i live right now like 15 20 average high lately ;< res water temp helps stabilize temp and height of the bins off the ground and insulating factors , foam and insulation work bad ass if you use em right ;>


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Mar 31, 2013)

heck yeah man roots are used to constantly cooler than air temp makes sense to me


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Mar 31, 2013)

33 days into flowering my end of the world stash i started em on dec 21, starting to fatten up nice and the smell is amazing just amazing!!! agent orange and cinderella 99 accidental cross oops but i gave it a shot was worth it as of yet we'll see whats up in a few more weeks hope i can make 420 bash gonna be close but that's how i roll...


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## StinkBud (Mar 31, 2013)

I'd start at 500PPM and go up from there. Watch your plants. If they look yellow, up the PPM, if they look super dark green then lower the PPM. It's all strain dependent bro.

Get yourself a UPS (uninterruptable power supply) at any major computer or office supply store. A big UPS can keep your pumps running for days. It won't help your lights but as least your plants won't die.

Good luck bro!


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## PROF XAVIER (Apr 2, 2013)

Haven't been posting for a while, just finished harvesting. I run the 110 psi pump with 50 micron misters, and don't have the solenoids and accumulators. I finished with just over 18 oz's from two plants....veg for a month and flowered two months all under t-5's. Just my input on what worked for me...it's like foggers, great for cloning but good luck flowering. Obviously the plant would starve. Same with my misting intervals...I started with short bursts, and the only thing that happened was huge fluffy root masses and scraggly ass tops. So I started alternating short and long mist times and saw a HUGE increase in top growth. My point is, like a fogger, HP misters have their uses and is an important too, but short misting cycles won't sustain a large plant just like foggers won't sustain normal vegetative growth. Unless you run SOG and begin flower as soon as you see roots, I don't beleive short misting cycles will sustain growth for plants over 20" tall. I used short cycles to DEVELOP a large root mass, THEN progressed to longer feed times. This is what worked for me and I got over a pound off 2 plants with t-5's. Hope this helps some people.


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## PROF XAVIER (Apr 2, 2013)

I'll post some pics but my root mass was about a foot wide and over two feet long and was still as white as in veg. Funny thing is I scrapped the design and am starting an upgrade. Here we go again! Never ends! Whoever said "smoking weed isn't addictive but growing it sure as hell is..." should get a medal....leaves you always wanting more!


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## hammer21 (Apr 2, 2013)

PROF XAVIER said:


> Haven't been posting for a while, just finished harvesting. I run the 110 psi pump with 50 micron misters, and don't have the solenoids and accumulators. I finished with just over 18 oz's from two plants....veg for a month and flowered two months all under t-5's. Just my input on what worked for me...it's like foggers, great for cloning but good luck flowering. Obviously the plant would starve. Same with my misting intervals...I started with short bursts, and the only thing that happened was huge fluffy root masses and scraggly ass tops. So I started alternating short and long mist times and saw a HUGE increase in top growth. My point is, like a fogger, HP misters have their uses and is an important too, but short misting cycles won't sustain a large plant just like foggers won't sustain normal vegetative growth. Unless you run SOG and begin flower as soon as you see roots, I don't beleive short misting cycles will sustain growth for plants over 20" tall. I used short cycles to DEVELOP a large root mass, THEN progressed to longer feed times. This is what worked for me and I got over a pound off 2 plants with t-5's. Hope this helps some people.


Prof this is what works for me also when you get the dreaded Pom Pom roots very little growth up top I stick with fish bone roots and all is good.


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## PROF XAVIER (Apr 3, 2013)

The pom poms are good...but only a good start. I think initially you want to develop as many hungry mouths as possible, then once you have them, feed them. Which is why hpa aero is far superior to most growing applications because you can develop thousands of feeder tips instead of 100s in a normal hydro setup. Its why dwc does so well because it continually feeds. Imagine sticking a pom pom in dwc!!! Look out! Sure it would drink like Frank Sinatra in Vegas, but that bitch would get huge in a hurry with the proper environment. ...


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## AeroPonicsWizaRd (Jan 9, 2016)

i agree the godfather of aeroponics richard stoner owner of agrihouse he is the guy nasa called for advice for aeroponics in space i been studying his designs and picking apart what he uses and how he overcomes a lot of issues he never said you want pom pom roots he says " lateral root growth" is what you want and it makes sense for the system as a whole he recommends 3 seconds on 3 minutes off i constantly wondered why? he always recommended that and my conclusion from personal tests was it is needed for evaporative cooling in the root mass for nutrient uptake and don't forget that temperature and ph are a function "solution _temperature_ compensation function" to be exact so if the temps are higher at the root mass the ph is different and it can and will effect ph at the direct site of nutrient application regardless of reservoir ph to some effect and my theory is its the temp change i up cycle times and get better feeding, finding that balance of cycle times is critical the plant will exhibit less turgor pressure with limited cycle times i proved this with a leaf sensor from agrihouse plugged into an embedded system logging the turgor pressure changes every 250 milliseconds or 4 times a second i'm working on writing a program to adjust a pid , proportional, integral, derivative controller to adjust cycle times with the sensor, it is the best way to work the cycle throughout the grow it will compensate with the plant as it gets larger and demands for water to keep tugor pressure richard stoner came to that conclusion with millions in research and developement grants from the national science foundation and working with nasa he charges thousands for his system and i find that is kind of irrational considering he uses inferior components in his systems he uses cheap parts and charges a fortune so its still outside of normal peoples reach he charges 78 dollars for a dvd with his book of information 2 different dvds i think anyways i respect mr stoner and do not know what he went through to get what he has accomplished but my goal with aeroponics is to be humanitarian and provide people with a space age option to grow food cheaply and fast its the future for everyone organic food cannot! be produced in enough quantity to supply the world with food well known fact! somebody would go without food sorry but its a fact, i like organic but if you look up food taste tests on you tube or anywhere else people always assume the organic food is the best tasting best looking one but are almost always wrong when they guess which one of two apples is organic and which one is grown on synthetically derived nutes the synthetics are almost always a better producer and the reason why is the plant gives no fuck where the chemical came from it only cares that it gets the elements it needs regardless of source sorry to offend organic nut jobs but its the truth and empirical science proves this! aeroponics is the future we already live in water crisis whether people acknowledge it or not this is the only thing ever to step up give an option to truly do more with less to grow food the world needs this now more than ever i wish mr stoner could be little more humanitarian with his efforts, he had futuristic visions like tesla, but tesla gave up his westinghouse contracts for the world! tesla is an absolute hero and deserves far more recognition the world needs an aeroponics hero i guess it will have to be us....


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## Atomizer (Jan 10, 2016)

Evaporative cooling isnt efficient in a sealed chamber, it requires airflow. Also consider the temperature difference required to reach dewpoint and where the condensation occurs. As the droplets evaporate they will take energy from the chamber to achieve phase change from a liquid to a gas. Given the small amount of liquid involved it wont equate to much cooling, its not going to perfrom like an outdoor misting system where theres unlimited airflow. If the saturated air is left inside the chamber the only place it can condense is on the chamber walls and floor, assuming they are cool enough to acheive dewpoint. The wall or floor material will have at least some resistance (r-value) to the flow of heat so most of the sensible heat released as the water vapour converts back from gas into a liquid simply increases the chamber temperature.
If you want appreciable evaporative cooling, make the chamber walls and floor from a breathable material, assuming you have airflow across the outside surfaces of the walls and floor, water will condense on the inside surface. The sensible heat will be removed by the airstream, which in turn, cools the inner wall/floor surfaces. This results in an increased temperature differential driving the process. You can think of the liquid water on the walls and floor as waste, aka mist that didnt reach its target. If its running to waste anyway, you might as well use it to cool the chamber. Other bonuses gained from breathable walls and floor is automatic air pruning of roots, the breathable floor also guarantees total drainage. Root chambers with single point drains will always have some standing water, even with a decent amount of slope you`ll`have a few mm.


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