# True or False? For the pro's only



## RetiredGuerilla (Dec 7, 2016)

Growing with metal halides or lights with a high kelvin rating will force your plants to use more nitrogen. I say true !


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## ttystikk (Dec 7, 2016)

RetiredGuerilla said:


> Growing with metal halides or lights with a high kelvin rating will force your plants to use more nitrogen. I say true !


Interesting hypothesis.

It's now possible to order or build lights that are identical in every way, save their spectrum output. COB LED and other newer generation LED chips can be ordered in a wide array of Kelvin temperatures, allowing for a very fine degree of control over your desired variable.

Consider running two fixtures, one at 6500K for high blue and the other at 2500 or 3000K for high red (also great for bloom, btw). If these fixtures are designed with the same number of the same type of chip, and operated at the same wattage with the same driver, then all that's left is two tents, some clones and substrate.

Two ways to tell which one uses more nitrate; use the amount of the same soil mix for both sides and watch for which one depletes its N first... or soil analysis after the fact.

Let us know what you find!


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## RetiredGuerilla (Dec 8, 2016)

Higher kelvin ratings produce more foliage ( branches and leaves) thus the plants demand for nitrogen increases.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 8, 2016)

Yes but the fuller spectrum makes for more efficient photosynthesis. 

So it's really back to the intensity vs the spectrum and for pure growth and nutrient needs the higher intensity light will likely burn more nitrogen. 

IMO

I will know in time. I just added a 315 LEC to my flower room. It will be compared to my 600 Super HPS in many ways.


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## RetiredGuerilla (Dec 8, 2016)

I agree with everything you said michiganmed


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 8, 2016)

Hey @RetiredGuerilla 

In case you didn't know you can respond to a particular member with the @ symbol and their user name like above.


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## Dr. Who (Dec 8, 2016)

While it can be theorized that the difference may be greater in veg then bloom. Or would it?....Just how much may this effect late bloom N use by the plant? 
How much of that effect is present, and will that affect a decrease in concentrations of the THC related compounds, due to higher concentrations/use of the N in/by the plant, during this mid to late bloom period? 

Oh to have a complete lab.....just to have fun with my time!

GREAT theory! Great follow-ups!

I feel the lack of a broader available spectrum in HPS is at fault for the longer bloom times found by many HPS users. I also feel that the same is responsible for the less positive finish found in the exclusive use of HPS lighting indoors.

Think mid - low wave blues and the UV bands too...These go a long way to achieving better indoor results and more positive finishing.


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## RetiredGuerilla (Dec 8, 2016)

Im running 6500 k rating t-5's vertically in combo with hps horizontally in one of my chambers and always get (almost too)dense nugs. I love this mixed spectrum. If you take off your sunglasses it looks like the mid day sun. Lol


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 8, 2016)

The Hortilux Super HPS bulbs have about 25% blue light to red. They grow very nice buds but as @Dr. Who mentioned I wonder about my long flowering times and although I am more than happy with my results this year I still chose the new fuller spectrum lamp to expand my room. 

I want to say it "feels" better in there with the 92 CRI bulb mixed in.

I expect even higher thc and terpene content from buds finished under the full spectrum lamp. 

We will see in a few weeks if finishing under it makes a difference.


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## ttystikk (Dec 8, 2016)

RetiredGuerilla said:


> Higher kelvin ratings produce more foliage ( branches and leaves) thus the plants demand for nitrogen increases.


This is a GUESS, even if well supported. 

The rig I suggested would be definitive.


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## Rayne (Dec 8, 2016)

Generally speaking. More light intensity cause the plant to need more minerals rather than explicitly more nitrogen. Plus the type of nitrogen a plant needs in the flowering phase is different than what it needs during the vegetative phase. 

Constantly adding more nitrogen than what the plant actually needs regardless of the growth phase causes nitrogen toxicity.


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## ttystikk (Dec 8, 2016)

Rayne said:


> Generally speaking. More light intensity cause the plant to need more minerals rather than explicitly more nitrogen. Plus the type of nitrogen a plant needs in the flowering phase is different than what it needs during the vegetative phase.
> 
> Constantly adding more nitrogen than what the plant actually needs regardless of the growth phase causes nitrogen toxicity.


Huh? Nitrates are nitrates, whether in veg or at finish, no? The amount varies, but this is the first time I've heard someone assert that the type is different too?


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## ttystikk (Dec 8, 2016)

Rayne said:


> Generally speaking. More light intensity cause the plant to need more minerals rather than explicitly more nitrogen. Plus the type of nitrogen a plant needs in the flowering phase is different than what it needs during the vegetative phase.
> 
> Constantly adding more nitrogen than what the plant actually needs regardless of the growth phase causes nitrogen toxicity.


He's specifically asking about spectrum effects, if I read his original post correctly. This is something I'd be interested in hearing more about, myself.


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## greasemonkeymann (Dec 8, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Huh? Nitrates are nitrates, whether in veg or at finish, no? The amount varies, but this is the first time I've heard someone assert that the type is different too?


yea... I agree with you, not sure I follow that logic..
not sure the plant uses "different" forms of nitrogen during flowering..
unless I am missing something


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## Rayne (Dec 8, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Huh? Nitrates are nitrates, whether in veg or at finish, no? The amount varies, but this is the first time I've heard someone assert that the type is different too?


1. Going of off my botany notes...
Vegetative or bulking related growth energy: Calcium nitrate, potassium nitrate
Flowering related growth energy: Ammoniumium sulfate, ammonium phosphate

There is a reason why the vegetative nutrients and flowering nutrients are in different containers.

2. The first two words of my initial post within this thread are "Generally speaking." Faster growth generally requires more minerals, not just Nitrogen(N), Phosphorus(P), and Potassium(K).


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## Dr. Who (Dec 8, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Huh? Nitrates are nitrates, whether in veg or at finish, no? The amount varies, but this is the first time I've heard someone assert that the type is different too?


True in a way but the plant will use different "sourced" nitrates at varying rates during growth.

Urea nitrates are broken down to ammonia nitrates and you need more to gain the same yield as ammonia based!

Actually, ammonia based nitrates (ammonium nitrate) yield better in field crops by like 3-5%.....I see no reason this doesn't transfer over to what we are doing here!

Ammonium Nitrate does not have near the loss due to evaporation (1-3%) that Urea nitrates do (just under 30%), and you can't predict the loss rate of the Urea!

Urea is subject to leaching at a far higher rate also. This is due to the plant using ammonium nitrates, at a more efficient/effective rate - you use less!

These are things I know from farming, yet apply to us also!

There are various other sources of nitrates also, and they have various N availability ratios. the way the plant uptakes them varies also.

Ummmm,,,there are the ammonium family chemicals....

Ammonium Sulfate

And then the phosphate group

Ammonium polyphosphate

Diammonium Phosphate

Monoamonium Phosphate

These are used at differing rates by the plant, and the diammonium Phosphate is a good starter nitrate for plants as it's more "available or better used" by young and early vegging plants..

So, yeah @Rayne is correct!

Just thought I might "elaborate" a bit on that!


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## Dr. Who (Dec 8, 2016)

Rayne said:


> Going of off my botany notes...
> Vegetative or bulking related growth energy: Calcium nitrate, potassium nitrate
> Flowering related growth energy: Ammoniumium sulfate, ammonium phosphate
> 
> There is a reason why the vegetative nutrients and flowering nutrients are in different containers.



And he beat me to the punch with more direct application to his point!


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 8, 2016)

I would like to add that using fertilizers that offer different sources of nitrogen and many different trace elements will grow plants healthier and they will produce more cannabanoid and terpenes. 

Good organic grows prove this and I thought it would go with the above information and was worth adding.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 8, 2016)

Excellent info @Rayne and @Dr. Who


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## ttystikk (Dec 8, 2016)

Rayne said:


> 1. Going of off my botany notes...
> Vegetative or bulking related growth energy: Calcium nitrate, potassium nitrate
> Flowering related growth energy: Ammoniumium sulfate, ammonium phosphate
> 
> ...


I was hoping you'd have some insight like this, thanks for sharing.


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## ttystikk (Dec 8, 2016)

Dr. Who said:


> And he beat me to the punch with more direct application to his point!


And thank you, as well. I don't claim to be the guy who knows everything, but I will keep asking questions of those who do. 

Lol


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## Odin* (Dec 8, 2016)

I just got my "Pro" cap from the pro shop yesterday. If that counts, then I approve this message.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 8, 2016)

Odin* said:


> I just got my "Pro" cap from the pro shop yesterday. If that counts, then I approve this message.


Yes. That makes it official.


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## Odin* (Dec 8, 2016)

@MichiganMedGrower Nice! Got it on sale, seemed legit. 

Should have also gotten the one that said "Rock Star". Missed opportunity and missed my calling.  I'm good with "Pro" though.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 8, 2016)

Odin* said:


> @MichiganMedGrower Nice! Got it on sale, seemed legit.
> 
> Should have also gotten the one that said "Rock Star". Missed opportunity and missed my calling.  I'm good with "Pro" though.


Mine says "Nike". I am obviously big time sponsored.


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## Odin* (Dec 9, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Mine says "Nike". I am obviously big time sponsored.



Shit, super jelly now, need to work my way up the ladder. However, my boxers say "Porn Star", so I'm doing something right.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 9, 2016)

Odin* said:


> Shit, super jelly now, need to work my way up the ladder. However, my boxers say "Porn Star", so I'm doing something right.


I'm way outa my league


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## Odin* (Dec 9, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I'm way outa my league


Modest much? With that "Nike" hat, you gotta be pullin' like Tiger Woods. Next trip to the pro shop Ima upgrade to something like "Google" or "Yahoo", then I'll be googlin' the shit outta some yahoo. My wife's, of course. I'm done "traversing".


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## Dr. Who (Dec 9, 2016)

@Odin* @MichiganMedGrower 

Hmm, mine says "Michigan trap Shooting Association"......???...... Must be a group of me armed with stupidly expensive shotguns and a shit ton of #8 shells at 1145fps!


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 9, 2016)

Dr. Who said:


> @Odin* @MichiganMedGrower
> 
> Hmm, mine says "Michigan trap Shooting Association"......???...... Must be a group of me armed with stupidly expensive shotguns and a shit ton of #8 shells at 1145fps!


I swear I saw a group of you around here recently. But you all were shooting haphazardly into the woods across from my property for no apparent reason. 

Nice hats though. Lol


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## Dr. Who (Dec 9, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I swear I saw a group of you around here recently. But you all were shooting haphazardly into the woods across from my property for no apparent reason.
> 
> Nice hats though. Lol


Hmm, must be those dern skeet guys.....We stand at the edge of an open area,,,,, pointing in the same direction and repetitively shoot at these round orange "birds" dat come out duh ground. Damndest thang is,,,we pretty much pulverise dem int'a dust and little bitty pieces. When you get's lucky enough to actually simply break it up inta large pieces, you just _can't_ cook'em till tender! Not ta mention they taste like shit!
But we keep going back.
Twice a week to break more in the hope of a meal. It's gotten sa frustrat'in that hundreds of us meet In Mason Mi. 5 times a years for 4 - 5 days at a time and stand 5 per station with 40 stations all attempting to fill those plates....We now gamble on jus how many of dem tough ass orange "birds" we can shoot in a row, 25 in a group and 4 groups one after the other. Some a us have got sa good thats we now have to have guys "shoot off" for the best at it!
Then we made it harder by having a "handicap" event by make'in you stan futher away. This is figured by's how many you shoots out of dat 100 birds that some feller scares out of that hole, when you say "pull" or "yup" or sump'in.
Next comes the 2 birds at a time out'a that hole and them fuckers go opposing directions - FAST.....Now jus this last summer I took the 1st place on one of those 5 times we meet, for doing that whilst sett'in in a char!

The good news is that we's got so good at know'in we's ain't gunna have any of them thar "birds" fur supper. That we have a nice big BBQ fa dinner and built a right big kitchen in the club house fur a feed'in us un our wive's an young'uns fur breakfast n lunch!

Sum a us is soo good dat companies even sponsor us to go to otha states big state shoots to show dem fellers whats for on the fire'in line! Then thars the BIG 'ol GRAND AMERICAN - WORLD championships in Sparta IL every Aug......I's been go'in fur bouts 15 years ta that! Ma son's shoot too and their AIM team has been state champs several times and at differing age groups too. Then a cpl a years ago....they took the Grand American for world champ's! (I jus go down and shoot. Might wins me a few hunert bucks in the Lewis class betting but, sho nuff neva placed in my class thar! Been state class B champ n state class A runna up a few time.)

Now the boys a in college. They don gets ta practice much but on weekends an it seems like they's found the eye fur the girls. So I don see to mucha them any more at the ranges we frequent (that tends ta make sum the older fella's kinda happy like, as they get tired of hav'in yung'uns whup'em so much - me included)

Now sum dem fella's gu out n spend over 20K on some them guns! Us well, I spent under half that fur me un-single, an bout the same fur me OU dbls gun....The boys shoot a custom shop built Rem 1100 comp and the older one has an old 1959 Browning A5 with a custom built trap barrel on it....Fun ta see the 20K gun fellers look at it and ask, What in the hell duh ya got's there son? (after he whups they ass) Yeee Hawww!

N, you betcha we got NICE HATS!


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 9, 2016)

Dr. Who said:


> Hmm, must be those dern skeet guys.....We stand at the edge of an open area,,,,, pointing in the same direction and repetitively shoot at these round orange "birds" dat come out duh ground. Damndest thang is,,,we pretty much pulverise dem int'a dust and little bitty pieces. When you get's lucky enough to actually simply break it up inta large pieces, you just _can't_ cook'em till tender! Not ta mention they taste like shit!
> But we keep going back.
> Twice a week to break more in the hope of a meal. It's gotten sa frustrat'in that hundreds of us meet In Mason Mi. 5 times a years for 4 - 5 days at a time and stand 5 per station with 40 stations all attempting to fill those plates....We now gamble on jus how many of dem tough ass orange "birds" we can shoot in a row, 25 in a group and 4 groups one after the other. Some a us have got sa good thats we now have to have guys "shoot off" for the best at it!
> Then we made it harder by having a "handicap" event by make'in you stan futher away. This is figured by's how many you shoots out of dat 100 birds that some feller scares out of that hole, when you say "pull" or "yup" or sump'in.
> ...


Very cool stuff. Good morning Dr. 

Got a simile fer ya. 

Used to 4 wheel in the tiger road area in Breckenridge. The wanna be rock crawler tourists would come in deep and get stuck in the logged stump field or some advanced spot with their 80k built up Toyota land cruisers with the snorkels and lift kits. 

We stumbled upon a stranded family baby included who had been stuck a while. No water. No tow rope. No food. Very expensive custom land cruiser. 

I promptly pulled him out with my half painted dented up a bit old dodge 93 pickup. Had a few hidden goodies but nothing fancy or even noticible to the casual observer. 

Took all of 5 minutes. 

The man asked after "What you got in that thing?"

I said "about $2500"


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## Dr. Who (Dec 9, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Very cool stuff. Good morning Dr.
> 
> Got a simile fer ya.
> 
> ...



YEEE HAAWWW!

You know there are cross state trails for 4 wheelers in the UP right? Cpl of them go all the way around the UP and several are used by the snowmachine guys in the winter. You need to be able to ford a creek/river that'll come up to about your windshield.....on the main one. Took the wife on a tour of the UP that way one summer. (88 Toyota PU with a snorkel option from the factory. Had a small camper on it. She was lifted both ways and ran the old bias super swampers on the trail (Trailer those up and swap tires/rims - storage the trailer and the radial road tires till back).....

It's a great trip!


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## Rayne (Dec 10, 2016)

Warning: For those that favor the pseudo-science that is rampantly pushed on a large number of cannabis related web forums the following information may be too much for you to handle.

As written in Chapter 2 "Introduction to Horticulture" on page 17 (13 of the pdf file) of California Master Gardener Handbook...


> The process of growth is controlled by the integration of a plant’s genetic potential and the surrounding environmental conditions. Plant growth requires a source of water, carbohydrates, chemical energy, and mineral nutrients.





> Photosynthesis is the process by which green plants produce their own carbohydrates, or nutrients, and obtain a source of chemical energy.





> Plant cells, in the presence of chlorophyll and light, convert carbon dioxide (CO2)and water (H2O) to carbohydrates (simple sugars), thereby transforming light energy into stored chemical energy. Energy is stored in the chemical bonds of the carbohydrate molecules(C6H12O6) that are synthesized in the process.


As found on the next page (14 of the pdf file)


> The chemically rich carbohydrates formed in photosynthesis are first metabolized and then combined with certain essential mineral elements (e.g., nitrogen, sulfur, magnesium, phosphorus) to synthesize more complex compounds needed to produce new cells (growth); or converted to more complex carbohydrates (sugars and starch) or fats and stored in fruits, seeds, stems, or roots; or biologically combusted to release the chemical energy needed for cells to function.





> Respiration is the process in which chemical energy is obtained from the controlled biological breakdown of carbohydrates. Superficially, it is the reverse process of photosynthesis.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 10, 2016)

Rayne said:


> Warning: For those that favor the pseudo-science that is rampantly pushed on a large number of cannabis related web forums the following information may be too much for you to handle.
> 
> As written in Chapter 2 "Introduction to Horticulture" on page 17 (13 of the pdf file) of California Master Gardener Handbook...
> 
> ...


Wasn't this thread about light spectrum and how it affects the amount of photosynthesis and respiration?

That's not covered in this article. I appreciate the horticulture 101 though. I find most don't read much at all.


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## Moflow (Dec 10, 2016)

Nice to see a thread without a row breaking out............... yet

Lol lol


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## mauricem00 (Dec 10, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> The Hortilux Super HPS bulbs have about 25% blue light to red. They grow very nice buds but as @Dr. Who mentioned I wonder about my long flowering times and although I am more than happy with my results this year I still chose the new fuller spectrum lamp to expand my room.
> 
> I want to say it "feels" better in there with the 92 CRI bulb mixed in.
> 
> ...


I don't think you will be disappointed with that CMH light. T5 growers like RM3 and myself have found that violet and UV light produces stronger, better tasting product. and that CMH bulb produces a near perfect spectrum for plant growth.looking into getting a 150 watt CMH bulb for a 2ft by 2ft experimental closet grow.I can legally grow 12 plants but only have room for 3 plants in my 2ft by 4 ft T5 closet.


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## mauricem00 (Dec 10, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I like it already. But It has spurred some kind of foxtail outbreak on my finishing plant. It was not growing funny under the Hortulux HPS. But I just installed it and never used one so I have do dial in the ventilation and circulation from the new open lamp. It may have been too hot right under the new lamp.
> 
> It is extremely intense under the sunlight supply reflector. Definitely more intense than a 400 HPS or MH.
> 
> ...


too much of anything is not good. I use roseate bulbs to get deep red and run about 6% UV during flowering.I don't claim to be an expert. i've been doing this for a few years and am still learning.I try to match the absorption spectrum of plants with my lights and that CMH bulb comes close


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## mauricem00 (Dec 10, 2016)

the 4200k CMH seems to supply plenty of deep red. it is really only needed to stimulate phytochrome ( what some refer to as the flowering enzyme)during flowering


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## Dr. Who (Dec 10, 2016)

What horse are you beating?


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## Dr. Who (Dec 10, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I had to dispute Rm3's validity and it makes his blind followers upset.
> 
> I wanted to show that too much blue light in flower is counter productive. His plants prove it.


Interesting 

Straight HPS makes plants bloom longer and have a less then positive finish.....More blue end is needed there.....
I've believed that for more then several years....

I don't do the T5 thing like he does.....I know he mixes the bulbs and likes the deep blues....in his mix. Not familiar with the exact mix and bulbs he uses..Think he spoke on that in an old thread in the adv. section called "Light".....

What ever though. He is a damn fine grower with some different idea's.....He does what works for him, eh? 
We all have opinions and we have things we wouldn't change in what we do.....So I think your use of the word "validity" is maybe the wrong word. Kinda says he's not a valid grower, and I think he is quite so... After all he does what he does to get the results _he's_ looking for! I've never seen him say anything like "I'm right and your wrong" about that choice on lighting !!

It may well be effecting his yield or bud size but, certainly not the quality....But that's a guess as I haven't seen but a few of his stains done his way....and have not done any of them here, my way.....So I really will withhold any actual judgement on that but to what I just said about the yields, and that was a "may well be" too...

But, I getcha.....

Any Idea's on the possible fishing trip this coming year? I like to plant ahead some......LOL
Your still up by "adventure" right?


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## lilroach (Dec 11, 2016)

RM3 has never said his type of growing will increase yield as that's not his focus. He's spent years striving for a certain buzz....the best buzz in the world, or at least his best buzz, and shares how he's both failed and had great success along the way.

One of his creations, Colorado Thunder Fuck has been a favorite of many growers that have given it a go.....myself included.

While I don't share his fascination with trich production, I do reap the rewards of years of trial and error. For that I thank RM3 for all his work.


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## Olive Drab Green (Dec 11, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I had to dispute Rm3's validity and it makes his blind followers upset.
> 
> I wanted to show that too much blue light in flower is counter productive. His plants prove it.


This isn't true. I was using 2 cheap Vipar V450s which were more blue than red. I grew two plants at the same time. Most people have seen them, and they sure as fuck weren't stretchy or spindly.


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## ttystikk (Dec 11, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> Pretty sure everyone here knows and can see that @RM3 does, in fact, know what he's talking about.


Well, not everyone. He seems to attract more than his fair share of crazies who say it can't be done, even while they're loading pics showing he's doing it.


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## Budley Doright (Dec 11, 2016)

Wow I wonder if it's like this at the orchid forums .


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## ttystikk (Dec 12, 2016)

Budley Doright said:


> Wow I wonder if it's like this at the orchid forums .


I hear it gets pretty cutthroat. Words might get said.


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## WWShadow (Dec 12, 2016)

What ever your problem is, deal with it like a man and get over it. 

I'm kind of thinking that you won't. You will most likely continue on this same path. That is what is truly sad.


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## lilroach (Dec 13, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> He got mad at me because he blames me for one of his members trying ocean forest.



Mich...

You and I really didn't spend much time on Rid's site together, and I really don't know what the hell happened over there, but in the 4 years I've been on his site he's never told someone to not use or use Ocean Forest....at least from everything I've read. It's just not his style. I grow in Happy Frog and while other's suggested going with other mediums no-one poo-pooed me for my soil choice.

His site isn't for everyone, but going on and on about him here is just bad form. May I suggest moving on. I hope all your grows are great ones.


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## homebrewer (Dec 13, 2016)

RM3 said:


> The other truth is is in all the years the site has been up, no one's personal info has ever been compromised, you see I actually do take privacy and security very seriously


I can attest to this. Not personally but I know Rid has taken steps to keep the site and members safe and secure when worst case scenarios have happened to member(s) of the site.

MMG - Even if your address is posted in plain view on the site, no one would care.


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## whitebb2727 (Dec 13, 2016)

Dr. Who said:


> @Odin* @MichiganMedGrower
> 
> Hmm, mine says "Michigan trap Shooting Association"......???...... Must be a group of me armed with stupidly expensive shotguns and a shit ton of #8 shells at 1145fps!


I love shooting trap, skeet, pigeons what ever you want to call it. 

I use a Mossberg 835 3 1/2 inch mag. The barrel is back bored and has superb accuracy. I regularly kill squirrels and other small game out to 60 yards with it.


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## whitebb2727 (Dec 13, 2016)

Dr. Who said:


> Interesting
> 
> Straight HPS makes plants bloom longer and have a less then positive finish.....More blue end is needed there.....
> I've believed that for more then several years....
> ...


I followed rm3 thread and decided to use t5. I went with a mix of my own but used his as a guideline. T5 grows mighty fine bud. I prefer a mixed spectrum. The buzz is better to me.

You remember the movie shallow hal? He told his friend it didn't matter what everyone else saw, he saw a beautiful woman.

Its the same thing. It really doesn't matter if the bud is really better or placebo it is still better. I'm sure its not placebo though. Every strain I have run seems to do better under mixed spectrum and added UV.

I have noticed an increase in N uptake with mixed spectrum with uv.


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## homebrewer (Dec 13, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> I followed rm3 thread and decided to use t5. I went with a mix of my own but used his as a guideline. T5 grows mighty fine bud. I prefer a mixed spectrum. The buzz is better to me.
> 
> You remember the movie shallow hal? He told his friend it didn't matter what everyone else saw, he saw a beautiful woman.
> 
> Its the same thing. It really doesn't matter if the bud is really better or placebo it is still better. I'm sure its not placebo though. Every strain I have run seems to do better under mixed spectrum and added UV.


I am more or less set in my ways and I like that RM3 does his thing but one of the things that I like from his garden is the mixed T5 spectrum. *But I do think facts and tests are important* and I'd love to see someone (maybe myself) step up and do a side-by-side with neutral 3 party testers comparing T5s and HIDs. I have a salt water setup from a coral grower buddy of mine, I just need to find the space.


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## Big_Lou (Dec 13, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Why would you put personal info on a pot site?


*DING DING DING!!*
**

(Granted, _some_ of my 'personal info' has been shared here, but a few of these folks I've known *pre*-RIU. )


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## RM3 (Dec 13, 2016)

homebrewer said:


> I am more or less set in my ways and I like that RM3 does his thing but one of the things that I like from his garden is the mixed T5 spectrum. *But I do think facts and tests are important* and I'd love to see someone (maybe myself) step up and do a side-by-side with neutral 3 party testers comparing T5s and HIDs. I have a salt water setup from a coral grower buddy of mine, I just need to find the space.


Go check Rings journal over at my place as he has totally duplicated my setup, yeppers tanning booth, ATI bulbs, same bulb ratios/mix etc.

He just harvested his first CTF and he got his highest squish yields ever plus there are smoke reports from him, his mom and a friend


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## whitebb2727 (Dec 13, 2016)

Back on track.

Does more blue cause the need for more N?

That seems to be to broad of a question. I don't know that would hold true for all strains.

More blue causes more growth. The summer sun has more blue so that would lead me to think that they would use more N.

More red cause more stretch. would that increase the need for N?

Too many variables to make a blanket state or answer "yes" to the question.


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## homebrewer (Dec 13, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Go check Rings journal over at my place as he has totally duplicated my setup, yeppers tanning booth, ATI bulbs, same bulb ratios/mix etc.
> 
> He just harvested his first CTF and he got his highest squish yields ever plus there are smoke reports from him, his mom and a friend


I'm following along as he has one of my crosses in his garden. But he's not running a side-by-side and I'm not sure if he runs cuts from previous lighting setups or not? Cuts from the same mom flowered under two different spectrums and tested by neutral third parties is the way to get some answers. I'm intrigued. 

In regards to squish yields, there are additives that I use that increase resin production but do nothing for potency.


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## Dr. Who (Dec 13, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> that is not quite true now. YOu even admit you didn't try the meds and one of your guys even email rid back and wants more.
> 
> Look man, I get it. You are mad about something. That something really has nothing to do with here and rm3 has never done nothing of the sort here to lead me to believe he would.


 You chill too mon, we av dis tread on a recoovery path..


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## whitebb2727 (Dec 13, 2016)

Dr. Who said:


> You chill too mon, we av dis tread on a recoovery path..


Post #84. I'm back on track.


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## Dr. Who (Dec 14, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> No one ever reads anything but the last post it seems.
> 
> I admited I was wrong to trust him and that it doesn't really matter to me about my info.
> 
> ...


Sigh, Your beating a dead horse with nothing more then your own speculation.......It's you who has to jump in and get all long winded! For god sake - there IS an _*ignore*_ function.....
Look at it this way.
It's you who seem to be defending an ideal over another's....

It's _*YOU *_who has disrupted this thread with issues that have _*nothing*_ to due with it! I don't mind a little personal banter on a friendly or funny scale.....But _*you*_ threw open the doors and jumped on a table yelling in anger to all who would listen.

I tried to make everyone stop - Didn't work! *Should have known better!
*
Personally I think it's time for @sunni to come in here and delete all the hateful drivel between you two! Some of us were actually enjoying a thread with real "advanced" content! It sure wasn't RM3 that began this crap either!

*And like I said earlier. RM3 does what he does to get the results HE wants! If you don't agree - fine! It don't make either of you right! It's just how you each choose to reach your goals! Grow up.......*

@Dr.Nick Riviera You got that right ol'friend!


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## lilroach (Dec 14, 2016)

Well it's time for me to stop visiting RUI again as there's more negative crap in one thread than the entire RM3 site.....now.

Michigan.....I've been around awhile and it's been my experience that when someone always seems angry at others is actually anger at themselves. I hope you find the inner peace you're lacking.


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## ISK (Dec 14, 2016)

lilroach said:


> Well it's time for me to stop visiting RUI again as there's more negative crap in one thread than the entire RM3 site.....now.


Personally I respect @RM3 even when I don't agree with him, as he is always respectful even to those worthless trolls that hound him

RM3 merely shares his beliefs and experiences for anyone to use or not use...I can never figure out why people get so hateful merely because his methods are not the "standard"

I also like the fact that when he doesn't know the answer he says so....he's doesn't bullshit or give advise on things he has limited or no experience with

Anyhow @lilroach ...hope you stick around, and just filter out the negative crap that these trolls spew out


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## mauricem00 (Dec 14, 2016)

growing is as much an art as a science and there is no one right way to do it.we all have different goals and growing environments and what works best for one person may not work well for another. we all benefit from sharing ideals here.but no one benefits from childish fights.I do not agree with everything RM3 says but I do respect him and recognize that I can learn from him


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## mauricem00 (Dec 14, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Back on track.
> 
> Does more blue cause the need for more N?
> 
> ...


I think faster growth increases the need for all nutrients. not just nitrogen. the strain I grow is a fast growing slow flowering strain and needs more food than slower growing strains i've tried. I grow with T5s and so do not know what effect increasing the monochromatic indigo ( royal blue) thats LEDs produce would have.more 450nm light would cause the plant to direct more energy toward leaf development but due to the low violet and blue output (430,470nm) of these lights more red and deep red may be needed as well (640. 670nm)


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## Uberknot (Dec 14, 2016)

Anytime you increase growth speed they will use up more nutrients.

interesting stuff here a few years back.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/12/111212124657.htm

The team performed experiments in which pregerminated seeds of red leaf lettuce were subjected to various light treatments using blue and red light for one week. At the end of the light treatment (17 days after sowing), the leaf area and shoot fresh weight of the lettuce seedlings treated with red light increased by 33% and 25%, respectively, and the dry weight of the shoots and roots of the lettuce seedlings treated with blue-containing LED lights increased by greater than 29% and greater than 83% compared with seedlings grown under a white fluorescent lamp. The shoot/root ratio and specific leaf area of plants irradiated with blue-containing LED lights decreased.

At 45 days after sowing (DAS), higher leaf areas and shoot fresh weight were obtained in lettuce plants treated with blue-containing LED lights. "The total chlorophyll contents in lettuce plants treated with blue-containing and red lights were less than that of lettuce plants treated with florescent light; the chlorophyll a/b ratio and carotenoid content increased under blue-containing LED lights," the researchers wrote. Polyphenol contents and the total antioxidant status were greater in lettuce seedlings treated with blue-containing LED lights than in those treated with florescent light at 17 DAS.


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## mauricem00 (Dec 14, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> Anytime you increase growth speed they will use up more nutrients.
> 
> interesting stuff here a few years back.
> 
> ...


so why doesn't 3 band (450,630,and 660nm) grow good pot. nasa found that adding green light improved performance and this study acknowledges that other studies found different results.what is valid is what a preponderance of what test show. you can't simply pick and choose studies that agree with you and call that science


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## whitebb2727 (Dec 14, 2016)

lilroach said:


> Well it's time for me to stop visiting RUI again as there's more negative crap in one thread than the entire RM3 site.....now.
> 
> Michigan.....I've been around awhile and it's been my experience that when someone always seems angry at others is actually anger at themselves. I hope you find the inner peace you're lacking.


No reason to leave. I went back and removed my post.

This is still a good place to learn and share knowledge. There will be trolls and ass holes everywhere.


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## Budley Doright (Dec 14, 2016)

Big_Lou said:


> Dude, c'mon; this is hardly the time for self-reflection.
> 
> 
> How about some crispy smelt?
> ...


Mmmmm smelt, haven't had them in a while . My first job was charging a buck per person to fish along our creek. People would get green garbage bags full and complain cause this little kid was asking for a dollar lol. Then there was the processing plant later ..... scissors . Me and my brother would sell 5lb bags cleaned for $2.50, that was fun cleaning those little bastards for a week till the run finished lol.


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## Budley Doright (Dec 14, 2016)

^^^^^ made me into a great trimmer, switched to something a tad more profitable .


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 14, 2016)

I apologize for ruining this awesome thread with my personal shit. I let something get to me I should not have.


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## whitebb2727 (Dec 14, 2016)

Big_Lou said:


> Dude, c'mon; this is hardly the time for self-reflection.
> 
> 
> How about some crispy smelt?
> ...


Looks good.

Just trying not to be a dick.


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## Rayne (Dec 14, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Back on track.
> Does more blue cause the need for more N?
> 
> That seems to be to broad of a question. I don't know that would hold true for all strains.
> ...





whitebb2727 said:


> _Since the summer sun has more blue_.. More blue causes more _vegetative_ related growth/_root development_.
> _Since the fall sun has more red_... More red cause more _flowering related growth_.


As it has stated once already... Regardless of the light. YES! *Growth in general causes a need for more nutrients/minerals/chemicals. Just not explicitly Nitrogen.*

is there a certain amount of skull density, that information must pass through, before you are willing to except the answer to the question or must the answer be written in manner that even small child can understand?

Stop focusing solely nitrogen. Remember nitrogen is also a small part of the air we breath. Too much nitrogen will cause problems with growth regardless of the light the plant is receiving.


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