# Don't switch straight to 12/12 according to new study



## aeafafwe (Jun 23, 2013)

I just read an interesting article about a study that found that plants "remember" how long "night time" is and change how quickly they're using starches so they don't run out before "day time". If the length of their "night time" changes quickly they will run out of starch too early. I'm not sure how bad that is for the plant, obviously it's not a huge problem since everyone does it, but it seems like it'd be a lot healthier for the plant if you increased the dark cycle by 15-30 minutes a day.http://phys.org/news/2013-06-sums-night.html


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## slowandsteady (Jun 23, 2013)

nice article. Food for though


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## WeedFreak78 (Jun 23, 2013)

I've often wondered about shortly changing the cycle over a week...Just seems more natural..less stress maybe?


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## AtomiCronic (Jun 23, 2013)

now i wonder if theres a product out there (or if it would be possible to rig up something) that would do this slight change of light schedule over a period of time automatically?


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## aeafafwe (Jun 23, 2013)

I read the article again and they say the plant stops growing when it runs out of starches. It sounds like switching from 20/4 to 12/12 will make your plant stop growing for about 8 hours a day for a few days. I'm going to start tapering to 12/12, adjusting 15 minutes a day. The article also said they try to have an extra 5% of starches at the end of the night, which sounds like they can handle every night being 5% longer than the last. If your dark cycle is 6 hours, adjusting 15 minutes a day will stay within 5% (5% of 6 hours is 18 minutes). I'm assuming they can handle a change every night, but I have no real reason to think they can adjust that quickly.


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## ASMALLVOICE (Jun 23, 2013)

Considering the rather small time frame we are dealing with, Would it really make that big a difference, or slow the overall process down in the long run...hhhhmmmmmm
I have done the temp drop while finishing flowering and had decent results, but tis only 1 grow, I am afraid much more is required for a solid baseline.

You just never know if you don't go 

Peace

Asmallvoice


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## aeafafwe (Jun 23, 2013)

I don't think it'd make a big difference, but it could easily add up to a few days, especially if you veg with 24/0. If you're trying to get everything dialed in perfectly, this seems like it could potentially shave a few days off your grow and/or slightly increase yields. This is the "advanced" section, after all.


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## Chronic Masterbator (Jun 23, 2013)

Small voice I assume the temp drop was for color?? I'm guilty of it too as plants are more aesthetically pleasing. Supposedly helps with aroma as well. But in Reality that stresses the plants as well. I only do it here and there for the purple craze peeps have. Seems like a cool article.

But I wouldn't bother with it really. It will take longer to harvest I believe. Also cost slightly more for lighting indoor. I don't think the trade off is worth it. Also most strains have been bred under 12/12 time cycle so would assume genetics let them handle the light cycle transition fine.


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## Vincent VonBlown (Jun 24, 2013)

Right, the plant can sense the dark cycle, so it adjusts after the first night. So there might be a very miniscule gain... But not worth the effort in my opinion...


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## racerboy71 (Jun 24, 2013)

15 minutes a night and you'd have to drop say 8 hours total to get to 12 / 12 if your run 20/4 or 6 total if you run 18/ 6.. let's do some quick math here.. every four days would be a total of one hour as 15 x 4 equals 60 minutes, so you'd have to do that 8x's which would be 32 days in order to drop from 20 to 12 at 15 minutes a day.. or 24 days to drop from 18 a day to 12.
imvho, wouldn't this really slow down flowering times as i do believe cannabis won't even start to flower until it reaches a good 10 or so hours of darkness a night in order to build up flowering hormones.. i don't really see the the upsides out weighing the negatives, and not like people haven't been flowering cannabis under 12 / 12 for decades now indoors and not having issues with lack of starches..
and who's to say that stopping growing for a few hours is a bad thing?? maybe it would cut down on the stretch experienced when inducing flowering if the plants can't grow as much??
idk, i'm just thinking out loud, and like i said, the trade off of much longer flowering times doesn't seem to out weigh any small benefits from added starches imvho..


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## Situation420 (Jun 24, 2013)

I have been doing this for a year now and have noticed that the flowering is more vigorous during the first 2 weeks of flowering if during the last week of veg you decrease the light by an hour each day until you are on a 12/12 light schedule. To do this I simply bought a 7 day battery supported timer and programed the week into it. A week before flowering swap out your timers from the 18/6 program and replace them with the programed ones. I thought it had to deal with stress or the fact that it takes time for the plant to realize that is time to start flowering. This has also reduced my harvest time by almost 5 days. This allowed me to get in an additional harvest a year and increased the amount of buds per plant by 20% no joke.


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## silasraven (Jun 24, 2013)

really bad advice, sorry OP, but this takes the cake for the day.....so far. getting the whole MJ community to switch from 12/12 to anything else is straight insane. its been proven to work so dont change a thing. 12/12 for flower. the plants will make its own starches as needed.


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## Chronic Masterbator (Jun 24, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I have been doing this for a year now and have noticed that the flowering is more vigorous during the first 2 weeks of flowering if during the last week of veg you decrease the light by an hour each day until you are on a 12/12 light schedule. To do this I simply bought a 7 day battery supported timer and programed the week into it. A week before flowering swap out your timers from the 18/6 program and replace them with the programed ones. I thought it had to deal with stress or the fact that it takes time for the plant to realize that is time to start flowering. This has also reduced my harvest time by almost 5 days. This allowed me to get in an additional harvest a year and increased the amount of buds per plant by 20% no joke.


Any Links or any journals to help us naysayers believe??


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## LadyZandra (Jun 24, 2013)

Good info- worth looking into furtheer- however- 
One article is not enough for me to go on and change what We've been doing for many years without a problem....
If it would speed things up and stress the plants less.. it would be worth the hassle-- 
but there would need to be more studies out there by several reputable breeders on this for me to do it.


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## Confusedone (Jun 24, 2013)

Don't waste ur time on this! It matters so little u can't weigh it. Meaning?? U don't need to worry about something that weighs nothing. Get it??? Never have I done that though I have thought it. Never have my plants not done what they should have and that is finish on time with tons of sticky bud. By the way, if they stop growing for a short time it does not mean they are not retooling to budding. What that could mean is a little less stretch and we could all use less legs under the bud babes... Waste of time and energy to even think about this.. Trust me..


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## lurtur (Jun 24, 2013)

This might require more investigations, due to the fact that people don't like to change what has already worked for them.


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## Chronic Masterbator (Jun 25, 2013)

I also believe that 20% increase in yield is due to being in veg before flowering eventually gets triggered.


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## Situation420 (Jun 25, 2013)

heres a link to the begining of week 6 of flowering for me. Right now they are on day 42 and have thickened even more 
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/676886-day-42-flowering.html#post9253992


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## growingforfun (Jun 25, 2013)

I would say situation420 is prolly right. I just started doing this as well on my own but a bit differently, I think dropping the time by a hour a day for a week is ok. I'm noticing my fastest growing plants and earliest buds ever this run and while today is only the first day of week 2 nearly every bud on every plant is larger then my thumbnail. 

Also plants start flowering before 12/12 assuming the days are getting shorter and its 16 hours or less and decreasing of light for many indica strains. Tell me what month daylight reaches 12/12 in nature then 2 months past that... I think where I live that's January but obviously we harvest in the fall. The typical 12/12 is not law it's just the standard


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## gudkarma (Jun 25, 2013)

even at an abrupt 12/12 switch there isnt any flower(ing) hormone present.

that takes 7 to 14 days easy. & the plants are still in veg mode.

? plants aint people ?

fuck they're simple organisms. you supercrop them, you clone them. you toss them into flower.

however, i strongly agree that plants have "memory" & environment plays a HUGE roll.

inducing fall like weather into the schedule imo triggers the flip faster. not just the light cycle.

think bigger more connected variables. 
since reducing the idea to a common denominator seems not so biological.

this concept of plant intelligence cant be proven in a human sense with human terms. 

its cellular imo.
plants are storing data in their cells about temp, humidity, light, hormones, etc. 

its when these triggers accumulate, the plant flips.






smoke em if u got em


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## growingforfun (Jun 25, 2013)

gudkarma said:


> even at an abrupt 12/12 switch there isnt any flower(ing) hormone present.
> 
> that takes 7 to 14 days easy. & the plants are still in veg mode.
> 
> ...


Your wrong, science has proven that plants do math to calculate how fast to grow based on many things. There's something on the topic on the bbc this week but its been known for a while that plants adjust to what's around them to grow best. Plants arnt people but they do most of the same things people do.


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## gudkarma (Jun 25, 2013)

ah science hasnt proven anything.
the article states this clearly.

in fact the research is all based on supposition ...invloving variables like starch, molecules T & S , day , night, & more.

plus they dont even mention temp, hormone activity, or anything related to flowering plants.

go back to the original article : http://phys.org/news/2013-06-sums-night.html

it's a hypothetical argument ...about precise adjustments plants do to prevent starvation at night.

they think a plant regulates starch consumption via a mathematical equation. LOL. 0's & 1's.
no way. not with regard to flower. there's many thing that take place when a plant flowers.

maybe a plant has a tummy & brain too ?
funny

something very basic on plant hormones : http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/gardennotes/145.html


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## gudkarma (Jun 25, 2013)

and after you read this : http://www.howplantswork.com/2011/06/30/the-mystery-of-the-flowering-hormone-solved/

wrong becomes right.

"The latest scientific evidence supports the hypothesis that florigen is actually a protein called *FT* coded for by the gene _Flowering Locus T_ in _Arabidopsis_. (Please see refs. 2 & 3 below for current reviews of the subject.) Briefly, *FT* is produced in the leaves and is transported via the phloem to the shoot apical meristems (SAM). Here *FT* acts like a molecular &#8220;alarm-clock&#8221;, evoking a complex genetic scenario, which culminates in flower formation. (Please see my YouTube video for an overview of the genetics of flowering.)"

no offense.
too quick to judge.

plants have systems.
these systems work in concert to regulate growth.
that's the only similarity to humans.
and that's a weak one. 

too say plants are intelligent on a human scale (having even one IQ point)...
fucking hilarious.

plants cant do math, per say.
its the only way those researchers can understand (translate) the process.

[video=youtube;g5iLN5T35BU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5iLN5T35BU&amp;feature=youtu.be[/video]


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## gudkarma (Jun 25, 2013)

[video=youtube;Gil3VOQq6k4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&amp;NR=1&amp;v=Gil3VOQq6k4[/video]

this vid is awesome.

and this (lecture) scientist NEVER mentions starch or math or intelligence with regard to flowering.

it's proteins , genetics , hormones , cellular biology.


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## growingforfun (Jun 26, 2013)

gudkarma said:


> [video=youtube;Gil3VOQq6k4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&amp;NR=1&amp;v=Gil3VOQq6k4[/video]
> 
> this vid is awesome.
> 
> ...


I don't want to nitpick too much because I bet we agree more than we disagree but this vig has no relevance to the topic, it's about what would be shown in a intro level wildflowers class such as the one offered at the local community college detailing plant structure. I'm not sure if the other links you posted are more on topic or not since I haven't watched them and I'm not sure if I care to since I can see it working both in nature and in my garden I have the results I need. Fortunately for me I have been able to do results first hand and get solid facts and saw this topic so I though I'd pass the info along.


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## growingforfun (Jun 26, 2013)

gudkarma said:


> and after you read this : http://www.howplantswork.com/2011/06/30/the-mystery-of-the-flowering-hormone-solved/
> 
> wrong becomes right.
> 
> ...



I went back and watch this and it's about basic plant structure during the flowering cycle. I would consider this very basic information and not on topic for the discussion. The part where it talks about plant hormones is true, it's actually the basis of our topic. The topic being that this manipulation of light, in a way more consistent with nature, more effectively produces plant hormones.


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## Mad Hamish (Jun 27, 2013)

I've been pondering the 12-12 cycle for a while myself. At first when I read about indoor growing it made very little sense to me. Out here in South Africa, herb starts to flower around December/January and the slower ones around Feb, to finish (if quick) end March, and slow sativas end around Mid-april to early May. In December, we have sunlight by 05:30 (pretty bright then really) in the morning until 20:30 at night. January it's not much different. So plants start flowering during really long days and a lot of the time finish before it's diminished all the way down to 12-12. In March we have sunrise around 06:00 and still sunset around 19:30 and I've had fully mature full-term Cheese nugs the size of my calves by then.<br><br>&nbsp;I personally predict the plants will hit flower WAAAAAY before you hit 12-12 if you slowly taper off on the daylight hours.&nbsp;<br><br>&nbsp;And I am yet to see an indoor grow, mine or anybody's, give colas half as tall as I am. You grow an oldschool Haze outdoors here and almost every branch has a main nug as long as my arm.&nbsp;<br><br>&nbsp;There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if conditions such as exist outdoors in grow season in South Africa were re-created indoors, you'd see the same monster-plants. BUT I ALSO BELIEVE TO BE UNREASONABLE AS A USEFUL WAY TO GROW because:<br><br>1- NOTHING penetrates like African sun. I don't even want to contemplate how much power you will need to get light all the way down a 3-metre bush. With the movement of the sun overhead, every branch gets it's fair share of potent sunlight. The costs in replicating this would be SEVERE, both in ballasts, bulbs, movers and so on as well as electricity.<br><br>2- They get HUGE. You would need the most luxurious of grow-rooms and a team of helpers when it comes to staking etc.&nbsp;<br><br>3- 8-week strains take 12 to flower at least, and so on. They really do take a lot longer to finish than indoors when grown outside in the long days. I've found some 'cheats' that work on smaller plants like inducing flowering early indoors or using a tent or whatever, but then you lose out on the massive yield. So it becomes redundant. You want it fast, flower immature plants or make yourself a lot of work later by keeping the daylight hours at a minimum, but you lose bigtime.<br><br>Plus I see no signs of harm to plants that just get flipped straight into 12-12. They really bloom a LOT faster. Don't know about starches and all of that.<br><br>And I have to add that, regardless of extreme bud mass and huge size, unless you have a NICE BIG outdoor area to grow, a 2 square meter SOG done right is still waaaaaay more productive, if you take into account that the big outdoor bud only comes once a year and you compare the production per method per YEAR. Once you average it over time, plain good ol SOG is still king, if overall yield is your concern...


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## Mad Hamish (Jun 27, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL403DBBCFF3143DCB

Hard to not think of plants as intelligent after watching the whole series... Look it up, changed the way I looked at the world FOREVER.


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## buddygrow420 (Jun 27, 2013)

I am definitely going to do this...knock off 1 hour a day until 12/12...seems more natural to me and what could it hurt!
Thanks for posting this.


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## legallyflying (Jun 28, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> Right, the plant can sense the dark cycle, so it adjusts after the first night. So there might be a very miniscule gain... But not worth the effort in my opinion...


Actually they can't just "adjust" over night. Plants have a circadian rhythm just like animals do. 

I got off the 12/12 bandwagon long ago. I go from 18 on to 16 on and then a few days later 14/1. Never had a plant not start to flower at 14 plus you get two more hours of light. Then I go down to 12/11 in about week 6. Then 10/14 in the last two weeks 

I have experienced better results that way. Bigger yields and faster ripening at the end. 

Great article. And great find


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## T.H.Cammo (Jun 28, 2013)

Most everybody seems to be relating thier own personal experiences, or opinions. Let's look at this from a logical and historical perspective!

Everybody used to "Taper Off" the light cycle when switching from Veg to Flower, twenty or thirty years ago (and by "Everybody" I mean that was _*the accepted, common, practice*_). And then, a few people started switching to 12-12 "straight away" (without tapering off) - and they said "Hey, this seems to work without too much hassle".

Before long, lots of growers just switched to 12-12 without "tapering off", the "Collective Wisdom" decided that "Tapering Off" wasn't worth the hassle. When "Pot Growing Websites" (like overgrow or rollitup) came to the Internet, it was common practice to just "Switch" the light cycle - that had become _*the accepted, common, practice.

*_I have to wonder, if there really is some benefit to "Tapering Off", why did "we" ever switch in the first place? Was everybody wrong to stop "Tapering Off"? I DON"T THINK SO! It seems that everytime someone uncovers a "Maverick Theory", a few people pay attention - maybe some will even try it themselves. If several people have success with the "new theory", the idea just "Snowballs". Pretty soon everybody is talking about this "new theory", but you can't fool everybody - EITHER IT WORKS OR IT DOESN'T!

All the "Tried and True" methods rise to the top (like cream). All the Bogus methods, eventually, end up on the "Myth Pile". I predict that "Tapering Off" the Photoperiod will, eventually (and once again), be deemed a waste of effort. Let the games begin.


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## legallyflying (Jun 29, 2013)

I don't know how much collective wisdom has trickled down from the ages...I can remember people claiming that pounding nails in the stem would make it secret more resin. I do know that plant research has grown leaps
and bounds in the last 30 years..like shit loads. I can remember watching a movie as a kid about photosynthesis and this animated plant moved behind this screen and the narrator said "we don't exactly know how photosynthesis works" 

I read a very interesting paper about circadian rhythms and plant respiration and transpiration cycles when trying to solve the whole 24 hours of light or 18 debate. 

It takes several days for a plant to adjust to changes in day length. And in the natural world, change usually happen pretty damn slow. If 12/12 isn't a shock, then why is it that if you accidentally give plants light during the dark cycle that the chance of herming goes waaaay up? 

I don't know, I told you what I have done and my results. Take it or leave it. I'm over "the game" of trying to educate people, the information is out there. 

As far changing the light cycle a couple times being a "hassle". That's about the stupidest thing I have heard in awhile. Believe me, I have some big gardens and walking over to my main timer and pushing a thumb or two full of tabs down has to be THE easiest thing of all the garden chores. Hell, I honesty can't thing of anything that is easier really? Maybe adjusting the temperature on my AC? That is slightly easier.


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## Mad Hamish (Jun 29, 2013)

In the end I reckon it depends on your goals. Personally, I want to continuously harvest and use clones of a pheno I enjoy, so tome me tapering off the light-cycle simply does not suit my goals, and I doubt my actual physical area I have to use for indoor growing will make for a lot of headaches with bigger plants. Like I said, I've seen how huge they can get with more light!!
But, if my goal was to do ONE grow a year or maybe two, and get the MAXIMUM possible out of each run, it would be incredible wise to shoot for more size and supplement light etc. In that case I would gladly experiment with tapering light-cycles. Yeah it IS easy to do, walk to timer, press down studs or lifte 'em up, done. 
I feel much of the time people forget that we all have a different goal and that our thinking is indeed biased because of that. Cool thread, nice seeing different sides of a topic always, yay-sayers and nay-sayers alike. As long as one keeps perspective and don't go confusing your personal goals with another's, it's all just good info and strong opinions...


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## Mad Hamish (Jun 29, 2013)

Mad Hamish said:


> In the end I reckon it depends on your goals. Personally, I want to continuously harvest and use clones of a pheno I enjoy, so tome me tapering off the light-cycle simply does not suit my goals, and I doubt my actual physical area I have to use for indoor growing will make for a lot of headaches with bigger plants. Like I said, I've seen how huge they can get with more light!!
> But, if my goal was to do ONE grow a year or maybe two, and get the MAXIMUM possible out of each run, it would be incredible wise to shoot for more size and supplement light etc. In that case I would gladly experiment with tapering light-cycles. Yeah it IS easy to do, walk to timer, press down studs or lifte 'em up, done.
> I feel much of the time people forget that we all have a different goal and that our thinking is indeed biased because of that. Cool thread, nice seeing different sides of a topic always, yay-sayers and nay-sayers alike. As long as one keeps perspective and don't go confusing your personal goals with another's, it's all just good info and strong opinions...


 I apologise for all the spelling errors... Stoned as a date and English is not my first language.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 29, 2013)

aeafafwe said:


> I just read an interesting article about a study that found that plants "remember" how long "night time" is and change how quickly they're using starches so they don't run out before "day time". If the length of their "night time" changes quickly they will run out of starch too early. I'm not sure how bad that is for the plant, obviously it's not a huge problem since everyone does it, but it seems like it'd be a lot healthier for the plant if you increased the dark cycle by 15-30 minutes a day.http://phys.org/news/2013-06-sums-night.html


I think you're confusing phytochrome accumulations which drive the flowering response with the production and depletion of starches, simple and complex sugars manufactured during the day via photosynthesis. I've tried it both ways - changing the photoperiod by about 30 minutes per day until the plant flowers and flipping to 12/12. Saw no difference.

Regarding depletion of starches, as I said in my tweeks thread regarding starch utilization as applied to day/night temp differentials, drop the temps from day to night at least 10F, preferable 20F. This way the plant will not use up too much of its resources, starches, to the process of respiration during the night when it's not making food for the plant. It will go more towards cell division/elongation. This very important factor wasn't even mentioned in the study. All inputs must be considered - water, temps, RH, etc.

UB


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## althor (Jun 29, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> heres a link to the begining of week 6 of flowering for me. Right now they are on day 42 and have thickened even more
> https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/676886-day-42-flowering.html#post9253992



Yeah, so where is your control to compare the differences to? If you don't have a control for comparison then what you are saying really doesn't make any difference.


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## Situation420 (Jun 29, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Actually they can't just "adjust" over night. Plants have a circadian rhythm just like animals do. I got off the 12/12 bandwagon long ago. I go from 18 on to 16 on and then a few days later 14/1. Never had a plant not start to flower at 14 plus you get two more hours of light. Then I go down to 12/11 in about week 6. Then 10/14 in the last two weeks I have experienced better results that way. Bigger yields and faster ripening at the end. Great article. And great find


How do you run a 14/1 and 12/11 light schedule? what timers r u using? im confused


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## Situation420 (Jun 29, 2013)

althor said:


> Yeah, so where is your control to compare the differences to? If you don't have a control for comparison then what you are saying really doesn't make any difference.


My control was using the same mothering plant for 3 generations then doing the gradual light reduction just as a means to save electricity but noticed that compared to the first 3 times the 4th trial looked like i was in week 2 of flowering by the end of week one. The flowering spots were all over rather than just at the nodes themselves and had mature pistils rather than developing ones in the same amount of time. I'm just going by observation and that was the only change i made to my system which resulted in a larger yield with denser buds.


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## Nizza (Jun 29, 2013)

heres one of those special timers http://www.ebay.com/itm/Titan-Controls-Apollo-1-Repeat-Cycle-Timer-with-Photocell-/251065811733 im sure there's cheaper ones.


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## legallyflying (Jun 29, 2013)

Ummm. Dropping your night time temps by more than 10 degrees causes stretch...and shit loads of it. 

Great advice UB.


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## Pepe le skunk (Jun 29, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> looked like i was in week 2 of flowering by the end of week one. The flowering spots were all over rather than just at the nodes themselves and had mature pistils rather than developing ones in the same amount of time. I'm just going by observation and that was the only change i made to my system which resulted in a larger yield with denser buds.


There is an interesting book by Tom Flowers called Marijuana flower forcing concerning the critical night length that would explain some of the results people are having. Critical night length is the exact number of hours strains need to start producing flowers and it is not the same for every variety. It is not always 12 hours of darkness to start flowering. Here is a quick guide to show the critical night length for different varieties. Hope that helps.

So an afghani only needs 11:30 of dark time to start flowering were a tropical sativa from thailand needs 12 hours and 40 minutes of darkness to really flower heavily. That is why with sativas when people cut the light hours to 10 hours on and 14 of darkness the plants start to flower heavily in the end to ripen. It is because they didn't give enough darkness to begin with for heavy flowering. They should or could have given it more dark and it might have finished faster. Also posted times for outdoors and locations so it might help some people if outdoors. You could try using light blockers to flower faster outdoors.


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## Mad Hamish (Jun 30, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Ummm. Dropping your night time temps by more than 10 degrees causes stretch...and shit loads of it.
> 
> Great advice UB.


 Careful he'll one star all your threads... UB Wuz Here.. LOL


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## Situation420 (Jun 30, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Ummm. Dropping your night time temps by more than 10 degrees causes stretch...and shit loads of it.
> 
> Great advice UB.


Yea I saw advice in someone else thread and have to agree too. He even said it himself that it causes cell elongation.


Uncle Ben said:


> drop the temps from day to night at least 10F, preferable 20F. This way the plant will not use up too much of its resources, starches, to the process of respiration during the night when it's not making food for the plant. It will go more towards cell division/elongation.
> UB


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## Unequalibrium (Jun 30, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Ummm. Dropping your night time temps by more than 10 degrees causes stretch...and shit loads of it.
> 
> Great advice UB.


Baloney. The temps in my room are different depending what time of year, but there are times the temps have more than a 10 degree drop at night and they don't stretch any more than usual.


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## Situation420 (Jun 30, 2013)

Do you think it may have to do with species UB? Even Jorge Cervantes has said this before and I greatly respect his teaching because the are based on nearly 50 years of observation.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 30, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Ummm. Dropping your night time temps by more than 10 degrees causes stretch...and shit loads of it.
> 
> Great advice UB.


Thanks! It's about time you learned something.

If you can't deal with The Stretch, then you need to get out of the game. Stretching during the early flowering phase is normal, it's just what cannabis does.

Having said that, it's high P in relationship to N that causes stretch. IOW, you lamebrains addicted to bloom foods are not only fucking up your yields but you're adding salt to your wounds by using high P bloom foods. Here's the _real _science - 
*
"When all of these results are put together, it is clear that
the form of nitrogen did not govern plant size. Repeatedly, the differences in
plant growth were a consequence of the amount of phosphorus supplied to the
plants, not the form of nitrogen. Going back to the original question,
Does ammonium-nitrogen really cause plant stretch, the answer
would have to be no. Differences in plant height among the many fertilizers
varying in ammonium-nitrate proportion are controlled by the phosphate 
low phosphate levels result in compact plants, high phosphate levels result in
tall plants."*

http://www.gpnmag.com/what-really-causes-stretch

Uncle Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 30, 2013)

gudkarma said:


> in fact the research is all based on supposition ...invloving variables like starch, molecules T & S , day , night, & more.
> 
> plus they dont even mention temp, hormone activity, or anything related to flowering plants.


Exactly my point. Notice it was all about math calcs?


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## smokinafatty (Jun 30, 2013)

aeafafwe said:


> I read the article again and they say the plant stops growing when it runs out of starches. It sounds like switching from 20/4 to 12/12 will make your plant stop growing for about 8 hours a day for a few days. I'm going to start tapering to 12/12, adjusting 15 minutes a day. The article also said they try to have an extra 5% of starches at the end of the night, which sounds like they can handle every night being 5% longer than the last. If your dark cycle is 6 hours, adjusting 15 minutes a day will stay within 5% (5% of 6 hours is 18 minutes). I'm assuming they can handle a change every night, but I have no real reason to think they can adjust that quickly.



It would take 32 days at the rate of 15 minutes a day, to switch from 20/4 to 12/12. (Well, my math is 20-12 = 8 * 4 [4 sets of 15 in an hour] = 32.)


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 30, 2013)

Pepe le skunk said:


> So an afghani only needs 11:30 of dark time to start flowering were a tropical sativa from thailand needs 12 hours and 40 minutes of darkness to really flower heavily. That is why with sativas when people cut the light hours to 10 hours on and 14 of darkness the plants start to flower heavily in the end to ripen.


I'm not totally buying Tom Flowers chart or his "facts" regarding real sativas. I say 'real' because most haze has been adulterated with indica. That is not the original Haze which is a sativa hybrid - Acapulco Cold X Colombian Gold X (S. Indian X Thai). Based on my personal observation (and I've grown a lot of sativas) equatorial sativas are neutral day dicots, those located plus or minus say..... 15 degrees of the equator, and flower based on chrononlogical age as opposed to phytochrome accumulations in the leaf. Good example, I grew Dalat Vietnamese indoors and I tried all kinds of photoperiods to induce it to bloom, nothing worked, only age. Even a night of 15 hours and day of 9 didn't work. It only flowered when it had vegged for like 5 - 6 months and then the blooming was profuse. Zamal, a pure sativa from La Reunion was the same way.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 30, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Yea I saw advice in someone else thread and have to agree too. He even said it himself that it causes cell elongation.


You misunderstood me and took what I wrote out of context. Cell division/elongation has nothing to do with internode lengths. Plants grow via cell division and elongation no matter what the plant unit is - roots, stems, leaves. What do you think causes a tree to increase its trunk girth? Dat right kiddies....... 

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers-80.html

UB


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## Sir.Ganga (Jun 30, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Ummm. Dropping your night time temps by more than 10 degrees causes stretch...and shit loads of it.
> 
> Great advice UB.


My room stays a constant 72 degrees day and night. My plants have never been happier! Dropping your temps was once thought to be critical aspect of indoor growing but since been proven to be a myth. Considerable differences in temps at any time is not good for any plants, this is just common sense but having to drop the temp? BUNKIM...total myth...spend your money on humidity control because this is the main concern on any indoor grow when the lights go out!


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 30, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> My room stays a constant 72 degrees day and night. My plants have never been happier! Dropping your temps was once thought to be critical aspect of indoor growing but since been proven to be a myth. Considerable differences in temps at any time is not good for any plants, this is just common sense but having to drop the temp? BUNKIM...total myth...spend your money on humidity control because this is the main concern on any indoor grow when the lights go out!


More bullshit from you and a stupid practice that is against everything that's natural as it pertains to mother nature. You don't understand plant evolution or processes.

I don't do myths, I bust them. I also bust know-it-alls like you. From the U. of N.C., College of Ag and Life Sciences - http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/weather/tempeffect-plants.html

*Thermoperiod refers to daily temperature change. Plants produce maximum growth when exposed to a day temperature that is about 10 to 15°F higher than the night temperature. This allows the plant to photosynthesize (build up) and respire (break down) during an optimum daytime temperature, and to curtail the rate of respiration during a cooler night. High temperatures cause increased respiration, sometimes above the rate of photosynthesis. This means that the products of photosynthesis are being used more rapidly than they are being produced. For growth to occur, photosynthesis must be greater than respiration. *

Everyone should read this article and memorize it from top to bottom.

UB


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## GandalfdaGreen (Jun 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> More bullshit from you and a stupid practice that is against everything that's natural as it pertains to mother nature. IOW, you don't understand plant evolution or processes.
> 
> I don't do myths, I bust them.
> 
> UB


Uncle Buster. Sounds good to me.


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'm not totally buying Tom Flowers chart or his "facts" regarding real sativas. I say 'real' because most haze has been adulterated with indica. That is not the original Haze which is a sativa hybrid - Acapulco Cold X Colombian Gold X (S. Indian X Thai). Based on my personal observation (and I've grown a lot of sativas) equatorial sativas are neutral day dicots, those located plus or minus say..... 15 degrees of the equator, and flower based on chrononlogical age as opposed to phytochrome accumulations in the leaf. Good example, I grew Dalat Vietnamese indoors and I tried all kinds of photoperiods to induce it to bloom, nothing worked, only age. Even a night of 15 hours and day of 9 didn't work. It only flowered when it had vegged for like 5 - 6 months and then the blooming was profuse. Zamal, a pure sativa from La Reunion was the same way.
> 
> UB


OMG, I've been trying to research this question for months and no one seems to have any real answers! Thank you Uncle Ben! I KNEW there had to be a day neutral variety out there since all I've tried have pretty much gone to flower as soon as they are planted outdoors and I've seen some nice sized plants grown closer to the equator than I am. I guess the problem is even "real" sativas, as you put it, have been adulterated by some Indica somewhere down the line. I will have to see if I can find those varieties you've mentioned. Thanks again.



legallyflying said:


> Never had a plant not start to flower at 14 plus you get two more hours of light... I have experienced better results that way. Bigger yields and faster ripening at the end.


This has been my experience as well. Even though some argue that more darkness means better results.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 30, 2013)

NietzscheKeen said:


> OMG, I've been trying to research this question for months and no one seems to have any real answers! Thank you Uncle Ben! I KNEW there had to be a day neutral variety out there since all I've tried have pretty much gone to flower as soon as they are planted outdoors and I've seen some nice sized plants grown closer to the equator than I am. I guess the problem is even "real" sativas, as you put it, have been adulterated by some Indica somewhere down the line. I will have to see if I can find those varieties you've mentioned. Thanks again.


Welcome! Curious, where do you live and what do you prefer, pure sativa or the typical mutt? Not real clear what works best for you outdoors.


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## Impman (Jun 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> More bullshit from you and a stupid practice that is against everything that's natural as it pertains to mother nature. You don't understand plant evolution or processes.
> 
> I don't do myths, I bust them. I also bust know-it-alls like you. From the U. of N.C., College of Ag and Life Sciences - http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/weather/tempeffect-plants.html
> 
> ...


The PROPER terminology is Thermoperiodism. Thermoperiodism is critical for plants to develop properly, and it directly effects the length of your flowering, the density of the nugs and the over all health of the plant. Thermoperiodism is directly connected to the plants chronological clock. I completely fucked up and stuntd a grow last summer by trying to run my lights at night, but the summer was too hot. What happend was a slightly higher or equal day/ night temp. My plants NEVER finished and were stunted. I was running three 600 whps and a AC, so you can imagine how much my electric bill was. Thermoperiodism is so critical, I cant stress this enough. I bought a great tool at Radio Shack that gives you your day/night temperature... or it tells you what the temp was exactly 12 hours earlier.


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## Impman (Jun 30, 2013)

Thermoperiodism should be in every Newbs vocabulary, but you cant even find it mentioned anywhere on RIU aside from my newb thread I started a few weeks ago. Plants do not remember anything at all, ever. You need to read about plant science. No where in Jorges book or that other deush Eds' is thermoperiodism mentioned, yet thermoperiodism, along with light cycle, directly affect the chronological clock. Plants remember NOTHING but I can control my plants flowering cyle with temperatures and lights. It is called photosynthesis plants have no brain whatsoever. This is the ultimate stoner thread. This is marijuana grow science epitamized, what a shame. If a real plant scientist resd the title of this thread he would be laughing till he pissed his pants. sad


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## LadyZandra (Jun 30, 2013)

gudkarma said:


> even at an abrupt 12/12 switch there isnt any flower(ing) hormone present.
> 
> that takes 7 to 14 days easy. & the plants are still in veg mode.
> 
> ...


Well said!!!


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## legallyflying (Jun 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> More bullshit from you and a stupid practice that is against everything that's natural as it pertains to mother nature. You don't understand plant evolution or processes.
> 
> I don't do myths, I bust them. I also bust know-it-alls like you. From the U. of N.C., College of Ag and Life Sciences - http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/weather/tempeffect-plants.html
> 
> ...


Wow that's news to me. Plants can photosynthesis at night!!! 

Using temperature differencials to steer your plant is a well known fact. There are a slew of articles out there stating that minimizing temp diff is a good thing. Again, I'm not posting links, the info is out there. High differentials cause increased elongation. Period. High diffs an be used effectively to bolster sugar deposition in large bodied fruits like tomatoes but cannabis flowers don't have the thermal mass to take advantage of this phenom.


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Welcome! Curious, where do you live and what do you prefer, pure sativa or the typical mutt? Not real clear what works best for you outdoors.


I live at exactly 30 degrees lat and about 15 minutes from the Coast. I think I would prefer a pure sativa, but anything that would give me a decent veg period would be great! PM me if you need more details, lol. I don't really like sharing info on here.



legallyflying said:


> Wow that's news to me. Plants can photosynthesis at night!!!


That's not what UB was saying. All he stated was there had to be more photosynthesis than respiration. You know... like calorie intake vs calories burned.


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## Situation420 (Jun 30, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> My room stays a constant 72 degrees day and night. My plants have never been happier! Dropping your temps was once thought to be critical aspect of indoor growing but since been proven to be a myth. Considerable differences in temps at any time is not good for any plants, this is just common sense but having to drop the temp? BUNKIM...total myth...spend your money on humidity control because this is the main concern on any indoor grow when the lights go out!


True but here is how day/night temperature differences work. During the dark period it is best to keep the temp within 10 degrees F of what you ran during the day, anything over that will cause slower growth, stem elongation, and delayed flower ripening. Plants that are kept at a constant temperature are more likely to grow stouter sturdier stems and have denser bud growth. Plants that have large temperature differentials between the day and night suffer from stretching and slowed growth rates. This is a known fact. Anyone that has grown for years can tell you just from basic observation that once they added that AC unit to their grow room to drop the day temp to 82 from 87 or even 90, while the night time temp remained the same they got denser buds and less stretching between nodes. 

Also all this talk about thermoperiodism, all that word means is the study of relative day and night temperatures and how it affects plant growth. Go look at what they are actually studying and the results they are obtaining. That 20 degree difference is terrible advice. Even in the natural environment that is a radical swing.


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## Impman (Jun 30, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> True but here is how day/night temperature differences work. During the dark period it is best to keep the temp within 10 degrees F of what you ran during the day, anything over that will cause slower growth, stem elongation, and delayed flower ripening. Plants that are kept at a constant temperature are more likely to grow stouter sturdier stems and have denser bud growth. Plants that have large temperature differentials between the day and night suffer from stretching and slowed growth rates. This is a known fact. Anyone that has grown for years can tell you just from basic observation that once they added that AC unit to their grow room to drop the day temp to 82 from 87 or even 90, while the night time temp remained the same they got denser buds and less stretching between nodes.
> 
> Also all this talk about thermoperiodism, all that word means is the study of relative day and night temperatures and how it affects plant growth. Go look at what they are actually studying and the results they are obtaining. That 20 degree difference is terrible advice. Even in the natural environment that is a radical swing.



The effect on an organism of the rhythmic fluctuation of temperature, including responses associated with thermal changes accompanying the alternation of day and night.
That is the definition you lazy mofo. Do a real search on it instead of posting Jorges NOGrow bible bullshit


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## Situation420 (Jun 30, 2013)

I dont even read jorge cervantes. I just watch his videos on youtube when im high. That day/night temperature differential is what i learned from a buddy of mine that is a bio-engineering grad student that could probably explain how this all works way better than me. To bad he doesnt smoke treefer but he loves plants!


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## Situation420 (Jun 30, 2013)

Impman said:


> The effect on an organism of the rhythmic fluctuation of temperature, including responses associated with thermal changes accompanying the alternation of day and night.
> That is the definition you lazy mofo. Do a real search on it instead of posting Jorges NOGrow bible bullshit


LOL your saying the same thing as me just adding a bunch of unnecessary wording. So u got a link to a site where i can see a study done thermoperiodism? I would be interested in reading it


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 30, 2013)

NietzscheKeen said:


> I live at exactly 30 degrees lat and about 15 minutes from the Coast. I think I would prefer a pure sativa, but anything that would give me a decent veg period would be great! PM me if you need more details, lol. I don't really like sharing info on here


I'd stick to the usual mutt for outdoors growing at that latitude.


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## Impman (Jun 30, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> LOL your saying the same thing as me just adding a bunch of unnecessary wording. So u got a link to a site where i can see a study done thermoperiodism? I would be interested in reading it


http://staff.washington.edu/raista/photoperiodism.pdf


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## Impman (Jun 30, 2013)

In some organismsthermoderiodsplay an important role in the phase setting of 
circadian rhythmicity. Plants; such as, chrysanthemum and tomato respond to 
alternating periods of low and high temperatures.& will flower earlier if 
subjected to low night and high day temperatures. Diurnal temperature 
differences influenceinternodelength, plant height, leaf orientation, shoot 
orientation, chlorophyll content, lateral branching and petiole and flower stalk 
elongation (Moe et. al. 1995). 
*I submit marijuana is thermoperiodic because I've seen it best and worse case. *


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 30, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> LOL your saying the same thing as me just adding a bunch of unnecessary wording. So u got a link to a site where i can see a study done thermoperiodism? I would be interested in reading it


I gave you a link. Are you blind? 

Sheesh, another noob that has to taught botanical principles.

UB


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 30, 2013)

Now now guys....


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## Impman (Jun 30, 2013)

Screw with your light cycle, do a 1 week of darkness, drive a nail through the stalks, add nothing but potash for flowering and inject CO2 at 400-1000$ a grow cycle. This is Internet Marijuana growing at its finest .... ' dude, my plants are thinking'. I will sell you a stick I made. It keeps lions away from your marijuana plants. I have never seen a lion near my home or plants. PM me for the lion stick... its 600$. Ill throw in a bottle of Alien Bloom Bubble Berry Booster


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## Situation420 (Jul 1, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I gave you a link. Are you blind?
> 
> Sheesh, another noob that has to taught botanical principles.
> 
> UB


lol i read your link UB and it was for chrysanthemums and the effects on temperature and plant growth not thermoperiodism. Impman give me a few min let me read your article i just saw u posted. You seem to at least understand what is important when it comes to the effects of day/night temperatures and how they effect plant growth.


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## Situation420 (Jul 1, 2013)

Impman I just tried to read your article and all I got is that the leaves droop more when its colder at night making it harder for photosynthesis to occur more efficiently. I've noticed that before when watching time lapse videos of weed plants and the leaves always go up and down when it comes to night and day. I am going to read the article more tomorrow because I gave up after the 2nd page cuz I spaced out. My thoughts on this, the maximum amount of energy received from a light source is when a leaf is perpendicular to that source, by increasing or decreasing that angle photosynthesis is not as efficient as it could be. If temperature causes more droop in the leaves meaning it takes a longer time for the leaves to to reach that perpendicular angle, the more time the leaves are at a less optimal angle. To me this means that the rate of photosynthesis is less efficient when the leaves are not perpendicular for the most amount of time the light is on. I really believe this is the only important face of day night temps. Maybe the other stuff is too but i dont see a direct connection.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 1, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> lol i read your link UB and it was for chrysanthemums and the effects on temperature and plant growth not thermoperiodism.


You obviously didn't read the article. It's about thermoperiodism as it relates to photosynthesis, respiration, growth. For the sake of discussion they quoted various plant materials. Spin it anyway you want but nature provides a drop in temps when the sun goes down. duh...... 

$650 for snake oils and believing a high night temp is a good thang......and so goes the membership of Troll It Up.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 1, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Impman I just tried to read your article and all I got is that the leaves droop more when its colder at night making it harder for photosynthesis to occur more efficiently.


Huh? Where in the hell are you coming up with this crap?


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## Situation420 (Jul 1, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Huh? Where in the hell are you coming up with this crap?


 If you read what I said above it has nothing to do wit any of the articles just my own observations and the physics of light angle intensity.Why you tryin to catch me while Im sleeping? I'm goin back to bed.


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## Situation420 (Jul 1, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You obviously didn't read the article. It's about thermoperiodism as it relates to photosynthesis, respiration, growth. For the sake of discussion they quoted various plant materials. Spin it anyway you want but nature provides a drop in temps when the sun goes down. duh......
> 
> $650 for snake oils and believing a high night temp is a good thang......and so goes the membership of Troll It Up.





Situation420 said:


> If you read what I said above it has nothing to do wit any of the articles just my own observations and the physics of light angle intensity.Why you tryin to catch me while Im sleeping? I'm goin back to bed.


Also, my B. I just looked back and noticed you posted an article on what causes stretch UB. I didn't read that either and will when i get up.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 1, 2013)

Impman said:


> http://staff.washington.edu/raista/photoperiodism.pdf


Adds credence to me only growing spinach and dill during the fall/winter.


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## skunkd0c (Jul 1, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> True but here is how day/night temperature differences work. During the dark period it is best to keep the temp within 10 degrees F of what you ran during the day, anything over that will cause slower growth, stem elongation, and delayed flower ripening. Plants that are kept at a constant temperature are more likely to grow stouter sturdier stems and have denser bud growth. Plants that have large temperature differentials between the day and night suffer from stretching and slowed growth rates. This is a known fact. Anyone that has grown for years can tell you just from basic observation that once they added that AC unit to their grow room to drop the day temp to 82 from 87 or even 90, while the night time temp remained the same they got denser buds and less stretching between nodes.
> 
> Also all this talk about thermoperiodism, all that word means is the study of relative day and night temperatures and how it affects plant growth. Go look at what they are actually studying and the results they are obtaining. That 20 degree difference is terrible advice. Even in the natural environment that is a radical swing.


in winter time my plants can go from 80-85f lights on to 55-60f lights off i do not provide any heating once the lights are off
i do not see any detectable slowing in growth rate, just a few more colourful buds due to the colder conditions 

peace


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## skunkd0c (Jul 1, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Impman I just tried to read your article and all I got is that the leaves droop more when its colder at night making it harder for photosynthesis to occur more efficiently. I've noticed that before when watching time lapse videos of weed plants and the leaves always go up and down when it comes to night and day. I am going to read the article more tomorrow because I gave up after the 2nd page cuz I spaced out. My thoughts on this, the maximum amount of energy received from a light source is when a leaf is perpendicular to that source, by increasing or decreasing that angle photosynthesis is not as efficient as it could be. If temperature causes more droop in the leaves meaning it takes a longer time for the leaves to to reach that perpendicular angle, the more time the leaves are at a less optimal angle. To me this means that the rate of photosynthesis is less efficient when the leaves are not perpendicular for the most amount of time the light is on. I really believe this is the only important face of day night temps. Maybe the other stuff is too but i dont see a direct connection.


This seems to change through the growth of a plant, during veg around 3-5 weeks this is when i most notice plants
sleeping , they start to droop at 15+ hours of light 
the leaves actually straighten themselves out before the light comes on maybe 2-3 hours before the lights come on the leaves are already waiting to receive the light 

i do not notice the drooping/sleeping much at all during flower 
early veg it is not so evident either
this is one of the reasons why i think any amount of light past 16+ hours does little for the plant during veg
other than keep it warm for a bit longer 

peace


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 1, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> in winter time my plants can go from 80-85f lights on to 55-60f lights off i do not provide any heating once the lights are off
> i do not see any detectable slowing in growth rate, just a few more colourful buds due to the colder conditions
> 
> peace


The colder temps simulate winter coming on and adds to the flowering drill. Probably speeds things up too. Plant knows it needs to quickly complete what its been programmed to do before being nailed by a frost.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 1, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> this is one of the reasons why i think any amount of light past 16+ hours does little for the plant during veg
> other than keep it warm for a bit longer
> 
> peace


It's actually all about a plant's light saturation point, s concept which few seem to explore around here. Easier to parrot the 24/0 thing I guess than to try to find the light saturation point of their plants where more becomes less.

UB


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## ProfessorPotSnob (Jul 1, 2013)

I could never see one applying this to a perpetual grow , it would not work as the photoperiod would be fucked no matter due to the disruption of adding acclimating plants . I would rather just walk room to room and call it done while checking my calendar .
Calculating the stretch using this method could really become one hell of a nightmare


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## NietzscheKeen (Jul 1, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> in winter time my plants can go from 80-85f lights on to 55-60f lights off i do not provide any heating once the lights are off
> i do not see any detectable slowing in growth rate, just a few more colourful buds due to the colder conditions
> 
> peace


My plants don't grow at ALL in the winter. They will stay green and healthy when I heat the room, but they still don't begin to grow properly until March or later. My house is old and has no insulation, single pane windows, and no central heating; it gets miserable in the winter and almost unbearable in the summer.

The plants do turn a pretty, but disturbing purple color though. Maybe I should go for that "designer bud" next winter, lol.


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## skunkd0c (Jul 1, 2013)

The fastest growth i have seen is during veg, from week 4 onward with lights on 24/0
keeping temps at constant 80f , growth is phenomenal lol
i see no reason to drop temps in veg, but during flower i would worry about greater risk of mold and bud root etc
with high night temps 

peace


----------



## skunkd0c (Jul 1, 2013)

NietzscheKeen said:


> My plants don't grow at ALL in the winter. They will stay green and healthy when I heat the room, but they still don't begin to grow properly until March or later. My house is old and has no insulation, single pane windows, and no central heating; it gets miserable in the winter and almost unbearable in the summer.
> 
> The plants do turn a pretty, but disturbing purple color though. Maybe I should go for that "designer bud" next winter, lol.


i had a similar grow about 10 years ago, the place was very old even the widnows did not fully shut gaps and drafts everywhere 
i did decide to install some heating when the lights switched off, i did not notice any difference other than a larger electric bill 
i do not think they would of gone below 50f but it was cold enough to see your breath in the air


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## skunkd0c (Jul 1, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's actually all about a plant's light saturation point, s concept which few seem to explore around here. Easier to parrot the 24/0 thing I guess than to try to find the light saturation point of their plants where more becomes less.
> 
> UB


You misinterpreted my post 
it was the constant heat of 80F that produced the faster growth, rather than the extended photo period 
i have experimented with various photoperiods during veg, and flower
i believe that anything over 16+ hours has little benefit to plants other than the constant heat supply from the lights during veg, 
this point i have previously raised in this very thread only a page or two ago


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 1, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> The fastest growth i have seen is during veg, from week 4 onward with lights on 24/0
> keeping temps at constant 80f , growth is phenomenal lol
> i see no reason to drop temps in veg, but during flower i would worry about greater risk of mold and bud root etc
> with high night temps
> ...


I gave you the science and you STILL see no reason to drop the night temps. OK

This is normal growth for me. Note the width and heights that I measured for each week. Do you get plants that are 13" + width after only 2 weeks of the seeds popping the surface? This was my normal indoor growth rate. 12/12 at 3.5 weeks still resulted in 5' tall plants come harvest. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 1, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> You misinterpreted my post
> it was the constant heat of 80F that produced the faster growth, rather than the extended photo period
> i have experimented with various photoperiods during veg, and flower
> i believe that anything over 16+ hours has little benefit to plants other than the constant heat supply from the lights during veg,
> this point i have previously raised in this very thread only a page or two ago


Didn't misunderstand anything. What you believe is immaterial. It's all about science. http://www.marietta.edu/~spilatrs/biol103/photolab/saturati.html


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## legallyflying (Jul 1, 2013)

Light saturation point? I would be interested to see a journal article or two about this phenom. That term is typically used to describe the maximum intensity that a plant can utilize to produce carbohydrates through ATP and it is NOT time based. Time has absolutely positively NOTHING to do with light saturation levels yet, as is somewhat typical for you, you understand most of the concept then staunchly apply it in a wrong way. Saturation levels for MJ are around 90k lux. Above that tissue damage may occur. I don't know the exact light saturation point but it's safe to assume it is reached as this lux level is higher than what is typically experieneced under natural light. 

The major point here is that discussions of time and light saturation are not appropriate as they are completely independent of each other. Plants may UTILIZE sunlight at different rates dependant on time, but the limit is completely static. 

MJ is a C3 plant and fixes co2 through ATP and NADPH molecules. It's not a staggered cycle of absorption and then fixation during the dark like C4 plants. As long as the light are on, the plant is "working" and growing. As stated before, the ciracdian rhythm still applies and a plant will slow down its rate of CO2 absorption as the light duration is extended past what is typical but it will adjust to 24 hours of light. 

Obviously the temperature has an effect on growth rates, it an endothermic (takes heat) reaction. Plants are like lizards in that respect. As long as you increase the availability or intensity of other limiting factors (co2, light intensity, nutrient availabilty), growth rates are directly tied to temperature. 

This is newb stuff guys.


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## legallyflying (Jul 1, 2013)

Here is an excellent read on circadian rhythms and carbon assimilation rates. 

http://www.tiem.utk.edu/~gross/bioed/webmodules/circadianrhythm.html


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 1, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Light saturation point? I would be interested to see a journal article or two about this phenom. That term is typically used to describe the maximum intensity that a plant can utilize to produce carbohydrates through ATP and it is NOT time based. Time has absolutely positively NOTHING to do with light saturation levels yet, as is somewhat typical for you, you understand most of the concept then staunchly apply it in a wrong way. Saturation levels for MJ are around 90k lux. Above that tissue damage may occur. I don't know the exact light saturation point but it's safe to assume it is reached as this lux level is higher than what is typically experieneced under natural light.
> 
> The major point here is that discussions of time and light saturation are not appropriate as they are completely independent of each other. Plants may UTILIZE sunlight at different rates dependant on time, but the limit is completely static.
> 
> ...


The issue is the total amount of photons received by the leaf tissue relative to all the inputs during the lights on cycle. Now, for the newbs, that means that if you bleached out your chlorophyll, then you don't have enough of say....N or you've given the plant too much light or both. 

For the record, plants produce more carbos when given less light over a longer period of time than very high light over a shorter period of time.

I explained what I thought were the best all around inputs for the typical cannabis mutt in my tweeks thread. Those inputs will give you the fast and healthiest growth with excellent production.

UB


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 1, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's actually all about a plant's light saturation point, s concept which few seem to explore around here. Easier to parrot the 24/0 thing I guess than to try to find the light saturation point of their plants where more becomes less.
> 
> UB


WTF is a light saturation point?


----------



## NietzscheKeen (Jul 1, 2013)

I'm beginning to think that Dutch Masters Liquid Light may simply be a Triacontanol solution intended for foliar application. Does anyone else think this could be a possibility? I've read that Triacontanol needs a surfactant in order to be "dissolved" and DM is quite explicit and insistent about the need for their surfactant, Saturator, when using Liquid Light.


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## legallyflying (Jul 1, 2013)

Liquid light is mostly comprised of very short chain simple sugars. Although their saturator is excellent, and surfactant will reduce surface tension enough to aid absorption. Liquid light is a good product. I spray it on shorter plants to have them catch up with bigger plants. The saturator however is a total rip off. 

Pick up some coco wett or dr. Bronners soap. I use dr Bronners peppermint cause bugs dont like it


----------



## legallyflying (Jul 1, 2013)

Again.. Back to the topic. 

This is a good read:

http://www.tiem.utk.edu/~gross/bioed/webmodules/circadianrhythm.html


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## Situation420 (Jul 1, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Liquid light is mostly comprised of very short chain simple sugars. Although their saturator is excellent, and surfactant will reduce surface tension enough to aid absorption. Liquid light is a good product. I spray it on shorter plants to have them catch up with bigger plants. The saturator however is a total rip off.


 Great idea with the shorter plant spray, My $200 bottle of liquid light has been sitting on my shelf for 2 years, i now have a use for it. Don't spray during flowering right, or atleast after the first week?


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## Impman (Jul 1, 2013)

Liquid Light??!? Its not funny anymore. Someone needs to shut these grow shops down. These gypsy grow shop operators are stealing from these people. LIQUID LIGHT??!? I have seen some ignorant shit before but this takes the cake. This is the mother of all Snake Oils. I am saving these posts and printing. NO ONE will believe me if I don't


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## Situation420 (Jul 1, 2013)

Impman said:


> Liquid Light??!? Its not funny anymore. Someone needs to shut these grow shops down. These gypsy grow shop operators are stealing from these people. LIQUID LIGHT??!? I have seen some ignorant shit before but this takes the cake. This is the mother of all Snake Oils. I am saving these posts and printing. NO ONE will believe me if I don't


I would have to agree. I used it and saw no difference, but at the same time now that I think of it I used it on every plant so how am i to know? I got the shit from a friend that said he didn't want it and it's just sat on my shelf for 2 years haha.


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## NietzscheKeen (Jul 1, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Liquid light is mostly comprised of very short chain simple sugars. Although their saturator is excellent, and surfactant will reduce surface tension enough to aid absorption. Liquid light is a good product. I spray it on shorter plants to have them catch up with bigger plants. The saturator however is a total rip off.
> 
> Pick up some coco wett or dr. Bronners soap. I use dr Bronners peppermint cause bugs dont like it


Agreed, I'm not spending $60 on a quart of surfactant when I can get 5 gals for the same price at the co-op. 



legallyflying said:


> Again.. Back to the topic.
> 
> This is a good read:
> 
> http://www.tiem.utk.edu/~gross/bioed/webmodules/circadianrhythm.html


Sorry, didn't mean to derail. Thought I'd ask since it occurred to me and we were on the subject of light, lol.


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## hexthat (Jul 1, 2013)

i use agave sugar for liquid light, neem oil and soap for surfactant 

idk how well sugars work but neem oil and soap are a good surfactant


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## hexthat (Jul 1, 2013)

also when i flower i spend a week lowering the light from 18/6 to 12/12 everyday droping the amount of daylight by an hour


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## legallyflying (Jul 2, 2013)

Impman said:


> Liquid Light??!? Its not funny anymore. Someone needs to shut these grow shops down. These gypsy grow shop operators are stealing from these people. LIQUID LIGHT??!? I have seen some ignorant shit before but this takes the cake. This is the mother of all Snake Oils. I am saving these posts and printing. NO ONE will believe me if I don't



I love how people that have absolutely no experience with a product just come out and start making all these bullshit claims. You and UB can keep growing in dirt with miracle grow and call everything else "snake oil" 

If your going to be an ignorant ass about then so be it. 

Like all the "advanced" threads. The turds found this one and ruined it


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## growingforfun (Jul 2, 2013)

You forgot that just before calling whatever product snake oil, they call whatever person made the comment a newb who knows nothing of botanical science. Really though that's like their catch phrase watch for it. Personally I'm waiting for those trolls to get banned


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## Sir.Ganga (Jul 2, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> More bullshit from you and a stupid practice that is against everything that's natural as it pertains to mother nature. You don't understand plant evolution or processes.


 Indoors is natural? If you think growing indoors is natural then you are the one that does not understand. The information you have brought to the table was taught to me 30 years ago. You do realize this is 2013? Methods and processes have changed drastically and you know it. YOU and YOUR information are OLD HAT so unless you school yourself to the standards of today your ego and info are outdated. Go back to school.



Uncle Ben said:


> I don't do myths, I bust them. I also bust know-it-alls like you


 I will gladly put my worst plant up against your best plant any day my friend, I've seen your pictures, there's nothing to boast about, and looking at kites pics and threads proves that your info is bunkum and you have taken a decent grower and put him down the wrong path...Sadly he has no clue because your info(though viable)is old and out of date. He could do sooo much better with better info. From the pics you and your cronies post, I could easily double your yields with just a little guidance and different techniques. YOU my friend(and I use that term loosely)should NOT give advice until you actually have a clue and come down from that HIGH HORSE you think you are on


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## patlpp (Jul 2, 2013)

Uncle Ben is an Alpha, pure and simple. That is why he comes off crass and shit, but for fucks sake, he knows what he's talking about. He and his references from Universities, the nerve. Yea, get off your high horse UB and succumb to the marketing forces. You should have been around when Fatman was here arguing with UB, talk about 2 rutting Rams having at it, WOW.


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## legallyflying (Jul 2, 2013)

Uncle Ben doesn't even grow anymore and I have been told he was strictly outdoor when he did. He has SOME decent advise but his above post about light saturation with a link to peer reviewed literature is classic. 

The post has nothing to do about the topic at hand and then he goes further to bastardize it and try to twist it to make his point. Same with the " advice" about temperature differential. 

It's really a shame that more people can't think critically and realize that technology and methods evolve as information does. 

The didn't even know about fulvic acid and how it works 30 years ago. And I can tell you that it absolutely Ficking rocks!! 

Spray some liquid gold from flower products on half your plants and then tell me it's snake oil. 

The sad part is that I am finally finding out why many of the truely expert growers don't post on RIU. Who has the energy to try and convince less educated people that insist they already understand all the intricacies of plant physiology and horticulture practices. All of UBs posts reflect this narrow mindset. 

I mean, what do I know, it's not like nearly every dispensary in portlad is selling my buds.


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## Nizza (Jul 2, 2013)

so guys , ive always believed soil/root temp should be 65deg F +/- 5 deg. And that the growroom chamber should be at 75 +/- 10 deg (unless co2)
the reason i initially thought this was because
1) Microbes thrive in 60-70deg F water, this is why when people brew teas they like to take the soil temperature before they add the water, so they dont shock the herd (even though you truly have the herd die every time food runs out, there may be micro herds chillin
2) The temperature drop allows the soil to cool off, this is why its important for the night cycle, cool air cools off the buckets and lets the plant get ready for its next day
3) Microbes will die if they fluctuate down to 50 degrees or up to 80 degrees (guessing the numbers here but u get what i mean no more/less than 60-70 degrees is optimal) so this means the soil is supposed to always been between 60 and 70

of course you need to be bio friendly if teaming with the microbes and know how to apply the teas and whatnot
and this research brought me to the conclusion of why its best to keep soil 60-70 and area 70-80, with a lights off period during veg (i go 18/6)

lol edit i forgot to mention nighttime temps are 60-70; 10 deg lower than day temps . This will cool off the medium and stuff and the foliage handles it fine


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## Sir.Ganga (Jul 2, 2013)

patlpp said:


> Uncle Ben is an Alpha, pure and simple. That is why he comes off crass and shit, but for fucks sake, he knows what he's talking about. He and his references from Universities, the nerve. Yea, get off your high horse UB and succumb to the marketing forces. You should have been around when Fatman was here arguing with UB, talk about 2 rutting Rams having at it, WOW.


 He knows what he is talking about in 1975. His 4 main colas technique proves that. This is a very good example of what some of us are talking about. Topping as early as he recommends does in fact work and work well but what isn't mentioned is the fact that it will also take 10-14 days longer to mature. This problem was solved late eighties when it was found that by topping later basically gives you the same outcome but because its later in veg the maturing plant does not skip a beat and added time is a thing of the past. This is common knowledge in the circles I frequent. So now...if the newbie coming on here new this, what way do you think he would do it? Every aspect of his knowledge base is like this. Its too bad because the people he helped really think they got some GREAT knowledge and advice, when in fact they should check the expiry date on said advise and look for other alternatives. I did not mean to hijack your thread and get off topic, I apologize.


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## patlpp (Jul 2, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> He knows what he is talking about in 1975. His 4 main colas technique proves that. This is a very good example of what some of us are talking about. Topping as early as he recommends does in fact work and work well but what isn't mentioned is the fact that it will also take 10-14 days longer to mature. This problem was solved late eighties when it was found that by topping later basically gives you the same outcome but because its later in veg the maturing plant does not skip a beat and added time is a thing of the past. This is common knowledge in the circles I frequent. So now...if the newbie coming on here new this, what way do you think he would do it? Every aspect of his knowledge base is like this. Its too bad because the people he helped really think they got some GREAT knowledge and advice, when in fact they should check the expiry date on said advise and look for other alternatives. I did not mean to hijack your thread and get off topic, I apologize.


I have not experienced a 10-14 day delay at all with his topping technique, as a matter of fact when I top as he suggests (when if you cut at the 4th node such that the clipping is well suited as a root-able clone), I end up with a clone 2 1/2 weeks behind the original ! He stresses not to top too early by the way, just as you do. Do you mean not to top @ node 4 at all or what? . WHen do you top and what method? FIM ? Don't you think he has also tried it at different stages ? Doing it later would also defeat the purpose he describes IMO. I don't think he states that his way is the only way does he? I use his method and that is all I do, no LST or anything. I let her rip and I have superb results so I commend him for providing me with a sure fire method to increase yield and keeping them in control with excellent canopy penatration. I have gone a round with him also about AN Sensi and lo and behold, out of all his subsequent posts about how he loves Dyna FP and reduced P and plenty of N in bloom it equates to what AN Sensi (with a tad cal/mag) provides, but he will never admit it. It's an ego face-saving thing I guess. I'm with you bro, one should always strive for the better and he tends to slam one for trying when it contrasts with basic Botany, which in a way you can't blame him. I'm not by any means defending all of his teachings coupled with his slams but I do respect the time he has given this board helping others. But why not respect his input just as much as you want respect for yours?


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 3, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Liquid light is mostly comprised of very short chain simple sugars. Although their saturator is excellent, and surfactant will reduce surface tension enough to aid absorption. Liquid light is a good product. I spray it on shorter plants to have them catch up with bigger plants. The saturator however is a total rip off.
> 
> Pick up some coco wett or dr. Bronners soap. I use dr Bronners peppermint cause bugs dont like it


"Liquid Light"? Sheesh, even the title sounds cheesy. I think they should call it "Liquid Fuckin' Lite" with a catchy acronmym of LFL. Might get more of you sucker bets hehe. 

If you need a "saturator" at a reasonable price, you don't buy it from a hydro store. Take that back, guys like you do but wise folk like me head down to a feed store where you can buy a gallon of a non-ionic surfactant such as your saturator shit for a fraction of the cost. A gallon costs about $14. Now, if you really want to run with the big dogs, you use what I use, a product such as "Surf King Plus". I buy it in 2.5 gal. jugs from Winfield Solutions. For the little pups (that would be you)....you can buy it here: http://store.doyourownpestcontrol.com/surf-king-plus

Now, for you guys still struggling with mite issues, a new product from Bayer is not to be beat - Forbid 4F. I have 8 oz on the way. At a rate of 1/8 tsp/gallon, 8 oz is enough to supply the entire growing membership of RIU.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 3, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> He knows what he is talking about in 1975. His 4 main colas technique proves that. This is a very good example of what some of us are talking about. Topping as early as he recommends does in fact work and work well but what isn't mentioned is the fact that it will also take 10-14 days longer to mature. .


Bullshit. Maturity is genetically and culturally (temps, etc.) driven. If it takes 14 days longer to mature, it's because of you, not the technique. As I stated on page one, the plant will react with new output within 24 hours. If not, you got a growing issue that YOU need to solve. It's just that simple.

Nice try troll....

Uncle Ben


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## Situation420 (Jul 3, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> He knows what he is talking about in 1975. His 4 main colas technique proves that. This is a very good example of what some of us are talking about. Topping as early as he recommends does in fact work and work well but what isn't mentioned is the fact that it will also take 10-14 days longer to mature. This problem was solved late eighties when it was found that by topping later basically gives you the same outcome but because its later in veg the maturing plant does not skip a beat and added time is a thing of the past. This is common knowledge in the circles I frequent. So now...if the newbie coming on here new this, what way do you think he would do it? Every aspect of his knowledge base is like this. Its too bad because the people he helped really think they got some GREAT knowledge and advice, when in fact they should check the expiry date on said advise and look for other alternatives. I did not mean to hijack your thread and get off topic, I apologize.


He's talking about a 10-14 day delay in vertical growth and he's right. I just recently started topping during the first week of veg and notice my plants took a additional week and a half to get big enough to place into flowering compared to the previous times. As for results, ive had my largest harvests to date.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 3, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> He's talking about a 10-14 day delay in vertical growth and he's right.


Are you now a spokesman for Troll-It-Up Uncle Ben's Cyber Stalker? He used the word "maturity" and some spin hoping someone will fall for his petty UB putdowns. You do know what "maturity" means and I'm not talking about some of the childish behavior here. Maturity as in "it took my plant 8 weeks to mature enough to harvest." NOT vertical height. 

Any time you top any kind of plant material whether it be a peach tree, pecan tree, wisteria, cannabis, or rose bush it will result in a plant with less vertical growth. That is what you're after when you train using topping aka 'tipping'. If you top a sativa clone, the one not topped will ALWAYS be much taller than the one topped. Go back to my topping thread and you'll learn a bit about apical dominance and the redistribution of growth hormones.

UB


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## Situation420 (Jul 3, 2013)

I know a lot about apical meristem dominance and how it effects hormonal balance and its "redistribution" (no such thing probably a misinterpretation of whats going on) throughout plants. Thank you for simply understanding what i was saying about that topping. I also have plants that i topped when they were in there first week and are taller than any plants than iv'e ever grown because i allowed them too. You cannot compare topping between a cannabis plant and a peach tree or a rosebush because they are drastically different. Thats like comparing the anatomy of a dog to a human. Good luck on your quest to defend yourself and trying to sound intelligent.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 3, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I also have plants that i topped when they were in there first week and are taller than any plants than iv'e ever grown because i allowed them too.


All of the exact same genetics I'm sure.

When it comes to certain plant processes that are shared by most plants I will lump them together to make my point. Why? Cause I can.

No, you can't compare cacti with cannabis. duh.......

UB


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## legallyflying (Jul 3, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> "Liquid Light"? Sheesh, even the title sounds cheesy. I think they should call it "Liquid Fuckin' Lite" with a catchy acronmym of LFL. Might get more of you sucker bets hehe.
> 
> If you need a "saturator" at a reasonable price, you don't buy it from a hydro store. Take that back, guys like you do but wise folk like me head down to a feed store where you can buy a gallon of a non-ionic surfactant such as your saturator shit for a fraction of the cost. A gallon costs about $14. Now, if you really want to run with the big dogs, you use what I use, a product such as "Surf King Plus". I buy it in 2.5 gal. jugs from Winfield Solutions. For the little pups (that would be you)....you can buy it here: http://store.doyourownpestcontrol.com/surf-king-plus
> 
> ...


Classic. Post up like you know it all. 
Guys like me, guys with a commercial pesticide applicators license with wholesale business accounts at ag supply wharehouses? 

You see, guys like me have used commercial ag surfactants and realized cocowet is the same price yet...hey look it's 3 times more concentrated. Your surfking will make 500 gallons of spray at two tsp gallon and the cocowet will make 1500+ for actually $5 cheaper.

Grumpy old douche fail. 

http://www.spray-n-growgardening.com/Coco-Wet-gallon/productinfo/GCCW/

Ps. Only sloppy growers get mites. Have fun smoking poison.


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## NietzscheKeen (Jul 3, 2013)

There is no point in arguing about surfactants. Different brands are available in different areas and not in others. You just have to do the math and figure out which is more cost effective. Some people can't afford, nor do they need a barrel of surfactant, so even if they wind up paying more in the long run... it's ok. You do what you can. 

I admit I laughed at Liquid Light when I first heard about it, but a couple of people that I trust recommended it too me, said it worked wonders, so I thought I'd spend the money and try it out. It causes my leaves to yellow and burn, does that mean it's working.... idk. I have to use a quarter to half the recommended strength. I am inclined to say that it does work though. It is intended for indoor grows under artificial light; I'm growing outdoors right now and think the blazing summer sun combined with Liquid Light is just too much. If you don't want to use it, don't buy it.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 3, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Classic. Post up like you know it all.
> Guys like me, guys with a commercial pesticide applicators license with wholesale business accounts at ag supply wharehouses?
> 
> You see, guys like me have used commercial ag surfactants and realized cocowet is the same price yet...hey look it's 3 times more concentrated. Your surfking will make 500 gallons of spray at two tsp gallon and the cocowet will make 1500+ for actually $5 cheaper.
> ...


Another snake oil op. I know who these people are. That spray-n-grow crap is highest in sodium. Wanna napalm your faves, go ahead.

I wouldn't piss on their office if it was on fire. 

Only real growers get mites. Sorry, but it's a fact of life. Kinda like you saying "I've never lost money playing the stock money". Right, if you never lost money playing the stock market, then you've never really played.

UB


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## legallyflying (Jul 3, 2013)

At least it doesn't crash your PH like surfking does. So no comment on covering your plants in pesticides? Thank god they just passed a law here that all buds sold in dispensaries have to be tested for pesticides.


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## Situation420 (Jul 3, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Only real growers get mites. Sorry, but it's a fact of life.
> 
> UB


4 years growing, 17 harvests, never had a single bug in my grow room, not even a fly

LOL am I just destined to have them come or am i doing something right?


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## legallyflying (Jul 3, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> 4 years growing, 17 harvests, never had a single bug in my grow room, not even a fly
> 
> LOL am I just destined to have them come or am i doing something right?


Snake oil will prevent mites. 

But then again, so will air conditioning and hygiene.

I might however try to buy and introduce them. That way I'll be a real grower.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 4, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> At least it doesn't crash your PH like surfking does. So no comment on covering your plants in pesticides? Thank god they just passed a law here that all buds sold in dispensaries have to be tested for pesticides.


It's not the poison, it's the amount "organic" or synthetic. You're talkin' stupid again and making up shit, as usual. You remind me of some liberal "journalist" shithead like Diane Sawyer or the Communist News Network (CNN). They don't report the news, they just make up shit.

Surf King doesn't "crash" anything. It buffers the pH down about one point if your water is alkaline. Most products require a neutral to slightly acid water base to work effectively. Know what you're talking about before you put your foot in your mouth again.



Situation420 said:


> 4 years growing, 17 harvests, never had a single bug in my grow room, not even a fly
> 
> LOL am I just destined to have them come or am i doing something right?


I'm not buying it. 

Yes, you are destined to have insect problems sooner or later. 

Happy 4th and don't forget your watermelon! I've got my Obama style patch going on! That scarecrow works better than my pesticides.



UB


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## wiggggy (Jul 4, 2013)

AtomiCronic said:


> now i wonder if theres a product out there (or if it would be possible to rig up something) that would do this slight change of light schedule over a period of time automatically?


A timer maybe


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## superjet (Jul 5, 2013)

please! what a bunch of little bitches. i thought he (ben) was just trying to be funny not hateful. jump the fuck off YOUR racist bandwagon bullshit.


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## cannawizard (Jul 6, 2013)

What the hell happened to this thread, I thought it was about light cycles, keep to the subject guys~

(btw)
The pic UB posted is questionable (depends on how you interpret it), but unless rolli or a global deletes it, I can't edit it since it doesn't really violate any of the RIU TOS~


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## Cali soul (Jul 6, 2013)

Its so funny and a challenge to meet people that try to be racists ,these people think there racists??? Huhhhh!! I've lived in the most racists place ever...kennesaw north of Atlanta ,ga ... You see confederate flags everywhere, on cars trucks and houses lol..I got more class than white racist folks and I grew up ghetto ass fuck in a small cali town ... I also got alot of white friends and I'm Mexican ..


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## legallyflying (Jul 6, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> What the hell happened to this thread, I thought it was about light cycles, keep to the subject guys~
> 
> (btw)
> The pic UB posted is questionable (depends on how you interpret it), but unless rolli or a global deletes it, I can't edit it since it doesn't really violate any of the RIU TOS~


Yeah, I guess that picture isn't racist at all now that I look at it. I mean, what is racist about the KKK?


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## cannawizard (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm going with the majority on this, RIU is intended for a place where users can feel open to share ideas and communicate freely amongst each other, so I took it upon myself to review what members have stated, and fixed the problem~

Namaste


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 7, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> I'm going with the majority on this, .....


And you know what they say, "a thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong".


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## doujadaze (Jul 7, 2013)

superjet said:


> please! what a bunch of little bitches. i thought he (ben) was just trying to be funny not hateful. jump the fuck off YOUR racist bandwagon bullshit.


Exactly my thoughts on that post. Just like everything else in this world. Everyone now is somehow a racist. It's all bullshit. That word is getting used to often. Come on now.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 7, 2013)

doujadaze said:


> Exactly my thoughts on that post. Just like everything else in this world. Everyone now is somehow a racist.


Wrong. Only white people can be racists, doncha know?



> It's all bullshit. That word is getting used to often. Come on now.


Yep, stupid is as stupid does. 



*NOTICE!

The Southeastern meeting for the PO40WHNSTNW (people over 40 who have not said the N word) will be held in the phone booth at the corner of Peachtree St. and Ponce De Leon Ave in Atlanta on Monday, July 8.

We apologize for the late notice and size of the accommodations but a smaller venue could not be secured. 


*


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## growingforfun (Jul 7, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Everyone that feels you do needs to get a life. Having said that......
> 
> OMG, not another fuckin' attempt at conjuring up Uncle Ben gangbang by some wacked out liberal kid! This is funny as hell.
> 
> Quite politically incorrect too for you RIU trolls considering my huge friends list and one thread that is going on a million views.


the amount of people you know or have influence on is not an excuse to act like that, it's a reason to NOT act that way. This is my point! Like I said up top hopefully you will be banned, or better yet, learn from it and stop posting that way. A simple guide to topping and the advise to not use any product other then what you have found works for you out of the local home improvement store does not qualify as rare knowledge. Claiming products that are proven to work are fake is the opposite of helping people. With half the advise you give I think your trying to make people yield less in fact. Overall you are just a very vocal person and anyone who is willing to type out nearly 5k posts on this forum alone is bound to have interesting views on how others should "get a life". I just wish you were vocal in productive ways.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 7, 2013)

Hey legally spinmeistering and PC Diaz, as much as you two be liking each other, get a room.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 7, 2013)

growingforfun said:


> Claiming products that are proven to work are fake is the opposite of helping people.


And there ya have folks, someone's feelings were hurt because I exposed the snake oil frauds and phonies he holds so dear.

Some of us are honest. Being PC and going along to get along is wrong and dangerous.

UB


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## growingforfun (Jul 7, 2013)

Bro claim I use snake oil all you want, I just wanna know what breed of snakes makes my plants so good. /sarcasm You don't hurt my feelings , you hurt the yields of those who listen to you. I've read your threads, seen your advice, hell I've even used some of it. But after trying many brands of nutrients and many of the products you bash, how can I say nothing when I have first hand exp?


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## growingforfun (Jul 7, 2013)

And I rarely even take issue with your posts bashing nutrients, it's when you personally insult people that I have to call you out for that, and the other problems you cause.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 7, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Correction, that power hungry coward (now a jail bird) FDD banned me as well as a 100 others that disagreed with his madness.


In Toke n Talk, I love FDD... but his stickies on mj growing? ... he must be growing a different plant than myself. that's my best guess.

Either way, hope all is well with him.


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## Red1966 (Jul 7, 2013)

AtomiCronic said:


> now i wonder if theres a product out there (or if it would be possible to rig up something) that would do this slight change of light schedule over a period of time automatically?


 Yeah, there is. Its a system that hooks up to a computer, costs like $5000.00 plus couple hundred for every device. Too pricey for me.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 8, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> So your re-posting to clarify that photosynthesis happens at night? OMG if you truly believe that then getting advice from UB can't hurt. Truly man you can't be that daft?


Never said that but since spinning is your MO and reading comprehension is not your strongest suit while trolling good people is, I recommend you take a long walk on a short pier and be done with it. READ THE FUCKIN' ARTICLE you $%^&*@ and learn something based on science.....not personal politics and anger.



> In the summer months my temps don't differ 10 degrees one way or another in fact some evening are warmer than the day, so give me a break.


We already had this conversation and I proved you wrong, so why bring it up again? Do you have an obsessive-compulsive disorder or you just stuck in STUPID and enjoy trolling those that rub your nose it? Post #54 --> https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/676034-dont-switch-straight-12-12-a-3.html

Sheesh, why does Troll-It-Up.org attract so many idiots?

Uncle Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 8, 2013)

Impman said:


> .... I completely fucked up and stuntd a grow last summer by trying to run my lights at night, but the summer was too hot. What happend was a slightly higher or equal day/ night temp. My plants NEVER finished and were stunted. I was running three 600 whps and a AC, so you can imagine how much my electric bill was. Thermoperiodism is so critical, I cant stress this enough. I bought a great tool at Radio Shack that gives you your day/night temperature... or it tells you what the temp was exactly 12 hours earlier.


I use a 24 hour recording hygrometer-thermometer made by EXTECH, model 445703. One button op. EXTECH Instruments is a maker of scientific measuring instruments.

UB


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## qwizoking (Jul 8, 2013)

Haha I like that you quoted imp..
I almost thought I was in the mythbusters thread


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## Impman (Jul 8, 2013)

qwizoking said:


> Haha I like that you quoted imp..
> I almost thought I was in the mythbusters thread


hows that power bill on your 22 week flowering sativa, my little genius


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## qwizoking (Jul 8, 2013)

Its bout 120 a month. And pulls 3oz a week.. good enough for me.... now go away


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## qwizoking (Jul 8, 2013)

Whatever I'm done here all I can say is..... flagged


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## NietzscheKeen (Jul 8, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's not the poison, it's the amount "organic" or synthetic. You're talkin' stupid again and making up shit, as usual. You remind me of some liberal "journalist" shithead like Diane Sawyer or the Communist News Network (CNN). They don't report the news, they just make up shit.
> 
> Surf King doesn't "crash" anything. It buffers the pH down about one point if your water is alkaline. Most products require a neutral to slightly acid water base to work effectively. Know what you're talking about before you put your foot in your mouth again.
> 
> ...


 and


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## cannawizard (Jul 8, 2013)

FYI.. If you guys wanna sling insults at each other, AMC isn't the place.. head down to TnT or Politics and have at it~


#cheers 

BTW..

if your post gets deleted (90% of the time) its not me, unless its SPAM-- I only edit "vulgarity" leaving this #$%#$% in its place, I'm not here to babysit adults~


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## webguy16 (Jul 9, 2013)

I only read the first 3-4 pages and the last few look worthless so... Anyway, i like the idea of stepping down the light cycle but i agree that 15min steps is far to gradual, i think you would lose a lot of opportunity for light while the plant was still in its veg state. I'm could see something more like the 18/6>16/8>14/10 schedule i saw posted once or twice, although i still want to look into 14/10 vs 12/12 more i think.


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## legallyflying (Jul 10, 2013)

Most plants will go full on flower with 14/10.


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## Impman (Jul 15, 2013)

qwizoking said:


> Whatever I'm done here all I can say is..... flagged


i am gonna flag you for flagging me.


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## qwizoking (Jul 15, 2013)

Lol nice, imp....


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## kinddiesel (Jul 15, 2013)

mrganga. you will also notice the buds are a bit more dense . lowering the temp last 2 weeks of flower, I also notice shut off the co2 last 2 weeks as well cool it off 75 f around, and the buds are more dense the color they should be example purple haze, idk if its only me but I see a lot more sugar on the buds too ,


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## kinddiesel (Jul 15, 2013)

for adding another 20 or 30 minits of light , im not going to bother, electric bill is already to high, to last to mess with 15 timers lol


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## Situation420 (Jul 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> And there ya have folks, someone's feelings were hurt because I exposed the snake oil frauds and phonies he holds so dear.
> 
> Some of us are honest. Being PC and going along to get along is wrong and dangerous.
> 
> UB





growingforfun said:


> Bro claim I use snake oil all you want, I just wanna know what breed of snakes makes my plants so good. /sarcasm You don't hurt my feelings , you hurt the yields of those who listen to you. I've read your threads, seen your advice, hell I've even used some of it. But after trying many brands of nutrients and many of the products you bash, how can I say nothing when I have first hand exp?





growingforfun said:


> And I rarely even take issue with your posts bashing nutrients, it's when you personally insult people that I have to call you out for that, and the other problems you cause.


Yea Uncle Ben's getting old and grumpy so don't take it personally, I just look at my plants and then look at his then say to myself damn, I guess he's blind and senile too, maybe they finally came up with a snake oil that actually works but he likes doing things the same way he has for 30 years and happy with his results. That's his problem and he does it to everyone. Ive read his threads and posts too. Most of them are very informative and helpful but also contain some bad advice as well. Most of his advice is based of old school wisdom and rule of thumb not current advances in science and technology and botany. I've learned to let him just sound stupid and go on with my business. Like you said i also have also seen how many people he has led down a path of failure or atleast slowed their progress in becoming better growers from the inaccurate advice he's given them and unfortunately its very disappointing but what can you do? It's just the internet and this is all he has, let him have it.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 15, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Most of them are very informative and helpful but also contain some bad advice as well. Most of his advice is based of old school wisdom and rule of thumb not current advances in science and technology and botany.


Cut the crap. What advice is wrong? Come on big shot, bring it on.

UB


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## brotherjericho (Jul 15, 2013)

Can't be bothered to read through thread but will say that I switch from 18/6 to 12/12 on every plant I grow, and no issues that I can see. If its not broke...


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 15, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Yea Uncle Ben's getting old and grumpy so don't take it personally, I just look at my plants and then look at his then say to myself damn, I guess he's blind and senile too, maybe they finally came up with a snake oil that actually works but he likes doing things the same way he has for 30 years and happy with his results. That's his problem and he does it to everyone. Ive read his threads and posts too. Most of them are very informative and helpful but also contain some bad advice as well. Most of his advice is based of old school wisdom and rule of thumb not current advances in science and technology and botany. I've learned to let him just sound stupid and go on with my business. Like you said i also have also seen how many people he has led down a path of failure or atleast slowed their progress in becoming better growers from the inaccurate advice he's given them and unfortunately its very disappointing but what can you do? It's just the internet and this is all he has, let him have it.



1through10


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## legallyflying (Jul 16, 2013)

Pictures of plants? When the hell has UB actually posted one of these glorious grows? Maybe in Texas they gobble up outdoor weed but on the west coast, they mostly laugh at that shit.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 16, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Pictures of plants? When the hell has UB actually posted one of these glorious grows?


Hey bubba, let's see what you got. Let's see some of that Cali girlie men schwagg.


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## Izoc666 (Jul 16, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Pictures of plants? When the hell has UB actually posted one of these glorious grows? Maybe in Texas they gobble up outdoor weed but on the west coast, they mostly laugh at that shit.


Tio Ben is among few growers that can grow pure sativa like 16 weeks of flowering that you saw the pictures he posted...im not defending this Tio Ben but i have a lot of respect for this fella becuz hes honest, very knowledge and his advices are always true.

hey UB, im Cali too and straight man swaggg , lol.

happy gardening.


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## NietzscheKeen (Jul 16, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Maybe in Texas they gobble up outdoor weed but on the west coast, they mostly laugh at that shit.


Aww, is there any real reason? I notice that outdoor is about half the price as indoor. What gives?


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 17, 2013)

NietzscheKeen said:


> Aww, is there any real reason? I notice that outdoor is about half the price as indoor. What gives?


Hype and plenty of sucker bets to go around.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 17, 2013)

While some of you guys are banging around with your indoor gimmicks such as SCROG, conversion lamps, pricey and nasty "cannabis specific" foods, lollipopping your plants, flushing, hitting them with bloom foods and doing other stupid stuff like defoliating fan leaves (removing the very unit that produces the flowers)...it probably costs me as little as a couple of bucks to grow 2 or more large plants outdoors. That includes enough "free" soil to fill up 5 gal. pots, an emitter connected to an irrigation line, 2 tsp. of a 18-4-9 slow release food worked into the top of the soil, and a little of my time just to monitor what's going on now and then. Water, light, air movement, and UVB is free. I buy the slow release by the 50 lb. bags. Cost of a couple of tsp. of the Polyon slow release food? Oh.....about a nickel. 

And ONE plant is enough to fill up this here cowboy's wheel barrel with some cerebral sativa colas. 







KISS,
UB


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## legallyflying (Jul 17, 2013)

LMAO "colas" 

thanks for demonstrating why outdoor is half the cost of good indoor.


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## Julius Caesar (Jul 18, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> ...it probably costs me as little as a couple of bucks to grow 2 or more large plants outdoors.


Dude i wish I could fill my back yard with marijuana and never mow the lawn again but my neighbors and local police wouldn't take kindly to such behavior. I'm stuck in the basement for now.


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## growingforfun (Jul 18, 2013)

Ya I love that picture of hash grade nugs. Are you showing us something been? Because all I see is shwagg. Maybe give us a close up picture of those buds? I trimmed off a lot of lower stuff around week 4 as well is this your trash bin?


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## growingforfun (Jul 18, 2013)

My week 5 scrog indoor plant is bigger.


while you can only harvest in the fall I can harvest year round and still do my thing outdoor. Well I guess you may go threw the hassle of light depriving to get more harvests I don't think you would go you that trouble, since you keep it so simple. 

My grow isn't even that big I'm not trying to claim biggest or anything just showing this guy claiming my style is shit and these"gimmicks" are adding more then he has to show. Of course outdoor is cheap to grow this isn't news.... From outdoor I expect dry buds 5+ inches long and 1.5+ inches wide or gtfo


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## AHoleNotherLevel420 (Jul 18, 2013)

I wonder If this would prevent more hermis.. ive noticed going from 24. lights on to 12 u get more hermis then 18 on 6 off to 12 12 . ? anyone else see these results?


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## Situation420 (Jul 18, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> While some of you guys are banging around with your indoor gimmicks such as SCROG, conversion lamps, pricey and nasty "cannabis specific" foods, lollipopping your plants, flushing, hitting them with bloom foods and doing other stupid stuff like defoliating fan leaves (removing the very unit that produces the flowers)...it probably costs me as little as a couple of bucks to grow 2 or more large plants outdoors. That includes enough "free" soil to fill up 5 gal. pots, an emitter connected to an irrigation line, 2 tsp. of a 18-4-9 slow release food worked into the top of the soil, and a little of my time just to monitor what's going on now and then. Water, light, air movement, and UVB is free. I buy the slow release by the 50 lb. bags. Cost of a couple of tsp. of the Polyon slow release food? Oh.....about a nickel.
> You get what you pay for
> 
> And ONE plant is enough to fill up this here cowboy's wheel barrel with some cerebral sativa colas.
> ...


Only thing better about outside is the sun, the best weed is grown indoors even though it costs more, the people who do it are doing it because that is their hobby and they enjoy it. Outdoor grows and soil grows should cost next to nothing to grow. Hydro will cost you 10 times more than soil will but the costs are justified by getting the largest possible yield per area in the shortest amount of time.


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## Situation420 (Jul 18, 2013)

AHoleNotherLevel420 said:


> I wonder If this would prevent more hermis.. ive noticed going from 24. lights on to 12 u get more hermis then 18 on 6 off to 12 12 . ? anyone else see these results?


Yea that will cause hermies, great observation. Any type of stress on a feminized plant can induce the plant to make some male flowers in an attempt to pollinate itself and give life to the next generation.


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## skunkd0c (Jul 18, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> LMAO "colas"
> 
> thanks for demonstrating why outdoor is half the cost of good indoor.


i have to agree, it was not until i reached the bottom of the post that i realised that was actually marijuana in that wheel barrow 
it looked like some grass clippings or something, i would hate to have to manicure that, removing all those tiny leaves
still, it is possible that under all those leaves are some nice little buds , just wish i could see them 

peace


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## Situation420 (Jul 18, 2013)

I would literally turn all of that wheel barrow into hash cuz that's all its good for. Lmao I see why it only cost him a nickel to grow all of that.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 18, 2013)

Manly men grow sativas, of which girlie men have never touched. 

You guys are so brainwashed by the fat, dense looks of the mutts grown around here that you're dumbfounded when you see anything to the contrary. This speaks volumes regarding your lack of experience. You have never grown a pure sativa, and that's OK. Just don't make such comments based on your ignorant and arrogant frame of reference. It makes you look stupid FWIW.

I doubt if some of you guys could handle more than 3 good puffs off this weed. Your level of paranoia would skyrocket.


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## legallyflying (Jul 18, 2013)

Your right. Real men harest larf. Good thing is, you can package your sativa in with all that nasty mexy bud coming through Texas and nobody would know the difference. 

The fact that you posted that picture as a representation of your grower prowless speaks volumes


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## skunkd0c (Jul 18, 2013)

i said grass clippings what i actually meant was shrubbery !!



meanwhile this is a crew member 






that be some trippy shit no joke






more crew members , shit is oldskool







yall so green with jealousy , fuck you


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## tusseltussel (Jul 18, 2013)

why is it that every thread I ever see uncle ben in it turns into a shit fest. (in my most highest pitch girle voice)hohohohooooo Hi I' advanced I top my plants and feed them nothing but the lowest quality bullshit I can find because yes you guessed it I'm advanced. bwaaaahahahahahaha snake oils bwaaaaahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....aaaaaahrg. Oi welcome to the shit fest, love ( in my best british accent now). aouckin twaaat.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 18, 2013)

OK kiddies, time for an education.  This is the structure of sativa bud which differs from your typical indica mutt. The trichomes are usually hard to see with the naked eye (remember heavily frosted buds do not guarantee potency or quality, only sales to sucker bets). The colas are open, airy. 





TFD Original Haze, the only pure sativa hybrid on the market, the only original Haze, from the original source, Sam the Skunkman who sourced the beans, gave them to his neighbors the Haze brothers and a legend was born. The leaf bronzing is from wind burn. The real Haze has been butchered, hyped, dumbed down with indica....and so goes this biz.


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## tusseltussel (Jul 18, 2013)

lol wind burn! brilliant.


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## Situation420 (Jul 18, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> i said grass clippings what i actually meant was shrubbery !!


 LOLOL thats what i saw too

Is that first pic actually of uncle ben himself after harvest?


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## Alienwidow (Jul 18, 2013)

Uncle ben, why would you grow that stuff if it looks like complete shwag? Doesnt make sence to me......


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## tusseltussel (Jul 18, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yes, windburn, ya mutt ass suckin' retard.


ass sucking retard???? really!! dude you are no service to this community you are an abrasive irrational know it all who knows nothing you thinking you are advanced in any way is a joke


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## skunkd0c (Jul 18, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> OK kiddies, time for an education.  This is the structure of sativa bud which differs from your typical indica mutt. The trichomes are usually hard to see with the naked eye (remember heavily frosted buds do not guarantee potency or quality, only sales to sucker bets). The colas are open, airy.
> 
> View attachment 2741259
> 
> ...


THIS is jungle weed


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 18, 2013)

Alienwidow said:


> Uncle ben, why would you grow that stuff if it looks like complete shwag? Doesnt make sence to me......


"Looks", eh? So you think frosted buds = potency or quality? No offence my friend, but that is the voice of inexperience who has been sucked into the cannabis biz hype. This was excellent bud that had a cerebral high with some paranoia thrown in if you smoked too much. Like I said in a previous post, you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed.

You know what, gonna post an example that is political but is spot on regarding the mindset of many people who embrace perceptions rather than reality, looks.

I thought I explained myself. Read my posts or better still read Mel Franks "MJ Insider Growers Guide".


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 18, 2013)

tusseltussel said:


> ass sucking retard???? really!! dude you are no service to this community you are an abrasive irrational know it all who knows nothing you thinking you are advanced in any way is a joke


You act like an (aggressive) retard who starts shit and I'll treat you like the punk you are. 

Your choice.........

Back to your first (troll) post of this thread.....you hardly ever get it right and didn't this time either. This isn't another "shitfest", it's another lame Uncle Ben gangbang because I challenge the same old forum stupidity and like my Peanuts cartoon example, you can't handle it.


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## Situation420 (Jul 18, 2013)

tusseltussel said:


> dude you are no service to this community you are an abrasive irrational know it all who knows nothing you thinking you are advanced in any way is a joke


He's good for a laugh every now and then so not completely useless. He definitely knows more about outdoor growing than me because I never did it personally but I think I could do way better my first try If I was able to use the sun. Honestly, if you didn't say that was a wheel barrow full of weed i wouldn't of known haha. 

Uncle ben, you grow outdoors and in soil. Can you stop comparing your outdoor moneysaving plants to people who use hydroponics and RO water. All you do is annoy people and it gets threads no where. When you compare what you do for now on can you at least take the time to figure out what system the person is using and what its potential is before your start comparing prices. Your money saving options doesn't necessarily mean the most money is made per square foot in the same amount of time. Stop thinking inside the box and look at the bigger picture so when your an asshole so atleast you sound like you know what your talking about.


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