# Nonbelievers, how did you lose your religion?



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Should be an interesting, and hopefully educating, thread. I see a lot of people claim they used to be atheists but saw the light and now they're a believer. Hopefully this thread sheds a little light on why that's an absurd statement to make, and why and how we each reached our own conclusions to nonbelief in a god.

I'll start...

Flashback to 1997, I was about 10 when the concept of God really came into my life..

1999, full blown Christian, believing (but not understanding) God created everything, you go to Heaven if you're good, Hell if you're bad, the whole 9 yards... I was influenced by my parents, having been duped themselves by tradition and years of conditioning. Not having realized this then, or having the capacity to, I blindly followed Christianity, believing it was right because my parents, the people who I depended on for life, said it was right...

2000, Y2K, my first taste of conscious irrationality. They said the world would end, I sat frightened, but preoccupied with my friend who made absurd statements about the taste of bbq chips dipped in koolaid (ROFL! to this day!) not _really_ believing the world would end because I couldn't put 'Y2K - computers go out - the world ends!" into logical perspective, even as a 13 year old... 

2003 - President Bush launches a war into Iraq because of 9/11. Confused, but I had the opinion of 'America is always right, why would they do anything bad against national interests?!', quickly realized (by 2006) that it was all bullshit for monetary gains, not American interest. Faith in the American government begins to fade... 

2006 - began to question the moral reasons behind the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, realized the terrorists behind 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. Began the long, arduous process of researching why we went into the Middle East in the first place...

2006-2010 - researched history, religion, politics, science, society, psychology, astronomy, philosophy, art, influences. Literally anything and everything to get a broader understanding of existence.

2010 - realized atheism

2010-2012 - was spent trying to empower other people, on the fence or otherwise confused, have reached some, but not others. 

I find the hardest thing in this entire quest is those that are proud to be faithful. Those that reality doesn't exist to. Those that prefer myth over logic, tradition over fact. Those too scared to let go, too scared of non-existence. The most fulfilling thing has been reaching those that value truth over comfort. When it finally clicks inside someones head that they have no real reason to fear anything in existence, especially the claims of the fearful, it all becomes worth it. Worth all the countless hours spent trying to explain a concept to someone who doesn't want to hear it, worth all the time and effort put into a thoughtful response only to be given a one sentence rebuttal.. 

I'm a non believer because nothing believable has been presented.


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## UncleBuck (Jun 27, 2012)

i lost a baseball when i was 8, and Dog didn't help me find it. so i figured Dog didn't exist.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

The very first line bashes believers. One starred.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> The very first line bashes believers. One starred.


Are you delusional? Or just hyper sensitive?

I demand an explanation.


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## UncleBuck (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> The very first line bashes believers. One starred.


you just earned an otherwise three star thread a one star rating based on your mere presence.

sorry, pad. one starred.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> The very first line bashes believers. One starred.


I'd say the last paragraph does. SERMONIZE ME PAD! lol


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## UncleBuck (Jun 27, 2012)

my loss of religion story is completely authentic, btw.

Dog was kind of a dick when he didn't help me find the baseball. all benevolent my ass.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Are you delusional? Or just hyper sensitive?
> 
> I demand an explanation.


The whole absurd statement part.


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> The very first line bashes believers. One starred.


5 star to counteract your bullshit. How is anything he said 'bashing' anyone? This hurt card that's played anytime someone's fragile sensitivities are bruised gets really tiresome. You're acting as childish as CWE and his faux outrage. You both sound like whiny children. You act like any criticism of your irrational beliefs is somehow a personal insult.


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## patlpp (Jun 27, 2012)

When you face inevitable death, you will pray to God. Trust me.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> The whole absurd statement part.



Kaendar, you must understand, from an atheist's perspective, which you don't have any personal experience with, it is absurd to claim you used to be an atheist and now are a believer. If you were a true atheist, for the correct reasons, and not just reveling in teenage angst, you would understand what I mean...

You can't, I repeat, CAN'T (as I have yet to meet someone) go from atheism to belief. You can't do it because to become a believer after reaching atheism for the correct reasons would require absolute proof of a deity. Beyond absolute proof, which would negate the concept of faith, an atheist can't be persuaded. 

Disagree? Provide evidence for one.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

patlpp said:


> When you face inevitable death, you will pray to God. Trust me.


I won't. Trust me.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 27, 2012)

patlpp said:


> When you face inevitable death, you will pray to God. Trust me.


and god will be like "LOL bitch please"


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> 5 star to counteract your bullshit. How is anything he said 'bashing' anyone? This hurt card that's played anytime someone's fragile sensitivities are bruised gets really tiresome. You're acting as childish as CWE and his faux outrage. You both sound like whiny children. You act like any criticism of your* irrational beliefs* is somehow a personal insult.


Thats an insult right there.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Nice thread pad. 

At this moment I'm having a serious brain fart and I can't really remember my journey. I will give what I can remember though.

1994-2001: Happy as can be. No influence of religion or didn't have to think hard to be happy. There was no logic thoughts and there were no illogical thoughts. I just lived in the now. 

2001-2002: I remember having an amazing dog that was my friend. I loved that dog and played with him all the time. I don't remember his cause of death but I remember feeling grief. My father told me he went to "doggy heaven. I was so gullible. I didn't question what he told me since it made me feel alot of joy that his death was a good thing. Faith was born.

2002-2006: I would visit my grandma alot and every once in a while she would take me to church. She has a thick spanish heritage and understands spanish the best. Needless to say, the church she took to me had a spanish speaking preacher. I couldn't understand a word he was saying. My grandma would translate the basics for me. God loves you so be good. Don't kill, steal, or be bad. No questioning from me since it wasn't neccessary. 

2009: For some reason I catch on to conspriacies and get more interested in those than my "religion" (which I still haven't looked into). I start researching the illuminati, the mayans prophecy, and all that crap. While watching youtube videos, I would watch related videos on religions and how god would stop all these people. I got deep into conspiracies and UFOs which lead me to believe the world was evil and god was the only way to justice. I start researching more about religion and my faith builds a new strength. My faith is the strongest it's ever been at this point. 

Through my HS years, I mentioned religion to some of my friends and it turns out most of them were atheists. They wouldn't mess with me or anything. They just said they were atheist and dropped the subject. Nuetral subject with them. 

2010: I actually start thinking. I don't want to. I converse with different people on the subject. Friends tell me it's ok not to have a religion. My dad tells me he doesn't think I should question it. I was too scared to ask my grandma since I know she would just be pissed. I pretty much kept my thoughts to myself. "oh well.. I just need to keep my faith strong. Everything will be fine if I trust in god". 

2011: I forgot the the name of the "prophecy" but he had thousands of followers. His group started spreading the word that the end of the world is close. "Holy fucking shit!!!! This can't be true!!". I start thinking I'm gonna go to hell for all my bad deeds. I started drinnking and singing bob marley songs in the backyard. Weird.. I "feel" that memory. Gloomy times but I feel like I learned something important. I remember filling a water bottle full of whiskey and walking in the streets at night. One night I called my mom while crying at told her that I don't want to go to hell and that I love her (lol.. calling people while drunk is funny). She tells me not to worry about it and the end of the world isn't coming soon. 

I don't believe her though. I ask god for forgiveness and build up my faith. My faith is still strong.

2011 (later): It turns out that dipshit was wrong. I wake up and the world is the same. I realize I was so stupid. How could I fall for something as stupid? I start thinking seriously about my other beliefs. They all seem kind of crazy. But I don't want to think about it because it's a sin. I remember lashing out at a few skeptics here at this point in time who told me my beliefs were crazy. I hear other points from different people.. Alot of people tried to tell me the truth but I'd close my ears and yell "my faith is all I need" (metaphorically of course). I was ignoring the truth. I felt bad for questioning my faith. It was the start of the breakdown. 

2011-2012: I gain alot of wisdom and views on life. I realize my beliefs are kind of crazy and I start finding it harder and harder to believe in them. I go through suicidal tendencies. Not being melodramatic. But I like for things to have a point. "what's the point of life if there is no god" I would ask myself. "there is no point.. no point in anything" blah blah depression. 

2012: Not too long ago I bounce back from my depression. I feel new and good. I don't need religion any longer and thinking logically comes naturally (well in most cases). I haven't thought of my previous beliefs in conspiracies in a while. I can't believe I actually believed in that stuff. 

Some of the years might be off but that's pretty much how it went down.


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## Metasynth (Jun 27, 2012)

I don't know if I ever believed in a judeo-christian God. I'm of the belief that there is an energy of connectedness that flows through everything, and when something dies or deteriorates, it's energy just joins that connected place. Some people call that energy 'god', and those same people might believe in 'heaven'; But to me, that is when your energy just re-joins all the other energy that flows through everything, all the time. Which, I might add, is already flowing through you while you are alive as well. It's omnipresent, but not omnipotent.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

patlpp said:


> When you face inevitable death, you will pray to God. Trust me.


Words of truth. It seems like when all else fails, even the most god hating and atheist person will turn to him for protection. Anybody that reads this will deny it, but id be willing to bet a million bucks that its true.


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## patlpp (Jun 27, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> I won't. Trust me.


This is what they call "talk the talk" .


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## scroglodyte (Jun 27, 2012)

i was forcefully converted by atheists


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Thats an insult right there.


waaaaa!

If your beliefs are rational, you should be able to demonstrate it with logic, because that is the definition of rational. If you think that's an insult, that's your cross to bear. Belief without good rational reasons to believe is by definition irrational. Don't like it? Prove me wrong.


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## Metasynth (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Words of truth. It seems like when all else fails, even the most god hating and atheist person will turn to him for protection. Anybody that reads this will deny it, but id be willing to bet a million bucks that its true.


I would think it depends highly on the circumstances of your impending death, and who you are surrounded with at the time. I cannot even imagine me being with my family, sitting in some circle praying as a meteor speeds towards the destruction of earth. But if I were say, a soldier, dying alone on a battlefield, IF I wasn't crying for my mother or father, I might cry out to 'god' in a moment of pure abandonment.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

patlpp said:


> This is what they call "talk the talk" .


Why would I pray to a god I don't believe in?


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## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

patlpp said:


> This is what they call "talk the talk" .


He's currently walking the walk.


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## Metasynth (Jun 27, 2012)

patlpp said:


> When you face inevitable death, you will pray to God. Trust me.


But that is like saying that any terminal medical patient will suddenly drop their entire belief system and begin to pray to a judeo-christian god...I assure you, this is not the case.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Metasynth said:


> But if I were say, a soldier, dying alone on a battlefield, IF I wasn't crying for my mother or father, I might cry out to 'god' in a moment of pure abandonment.


This example defines the entire reason organized religion has been so successful throughout the ages.


Fear.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Metasynth said:


> I would think it depends highly on the circumstances of your impending death, and who you are surrounded with at the time. I cannot even imagine me being with my family, sitting in some circle praying as a meteor speeds towards the destruction of earth. But if I were say, a soldier, dying alone on a battlefield, IF I wasn't crying for my mother or father, I might cry out to 'god' in a moment of pure abandonment.


Atheist in the foxhole. I have a feeling that I'm gonna try my hardest to believe in god and ask for forgiveness on my death bed but won't be able to lie to myself enough to satisfy my wish.


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## UncleBuck (Jun 27, 2012)

seriously though, i lost a baseball and concluded that Dog didn't exist. i thought this thread was about shit like that.


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Words of truth. It seems like when all else fails, even the most god hating and atheist person will turn to him for protection. Anybody that reads this will deny it, but id be willing to bet a million bucks that its true.


I'll take that bet. How would you like to pay? https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/510838-atheists-foxholes.html


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

patlpp said:


> When you face inevitable death, you will pray to God. Trust me.


And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you!

nice avatar


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Nice thread pad.
> 
> At this moment I'm having a serious brain fart and I can't really remember my journey. I will give what I can remember though.
> 
> ...


Lets sum this up. 1994-2011 your a happy kid with dumb friends. 2011 hits and you get convinced by some idiot that he knows when the world is gonna end. 2011-2012 you get convinced by even more idiots on the internet that your religion and god are a lie.


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## patlpp (Jun 27, 2012)

Metasynth said:


> But that is like saying that any terminal medical patient will suddenly drop their entire belief system and begin to pray to a judeo-christian god...I assure you, this is not the case.


Why a particular denomination? I didn't say that , I said God, as in salvation, redemption. You will see the beauty of life as Gods gift to you when you are about to lose it. A moment of clarity LOL


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> waaaaa!
> 
> If your beliefs are rational, you should be able to demonstrate it with logic, because that is the definition of rational. If you think that's an insult, that's your cross to bear. Belief without good rational reasons to believe is by definition irrational. Don't like it? Prove me wrong.


I have plenty of proof. Its not my fault that proof isnt good enuf for atheists.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Lets sum this up. 1994-2011 your a happy kid with dumb friends. 2011 hits and you get convinced by some idiot that he knows when the world is gonna end. 2011-2012 you get convinced by even more idiots on the internet that your religion and god are a lie.


Dumb friends? Where did you get that from? 

2011 hits and I start thinking. Thinking kills any irrational beliefs. You should try it some time.

Here's a much shorter summary.

1994-2006: No religion and I'm the happiest I've been in my entire life.

2006-2011: Don't question anything and at one point I believed in "doggy heaven" which isn't too much different than my other beliefs.

2011-2012: I can't believe anymore.


I like my doggy heaven thing. Try to believe that kaendar. Try to believe that when dogs die, they go to heaven. Hard right? Imagine how I feel.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

patlpp said:


> Why a particular denomination? I didn't say that , I said God, as in salvation, redemption. You will see the beauty of life.


Exactly. When people are about to die, majority of them snap back into realizing that life is too precious for a god not to exist. Our minds, thoughts, emotions, love, passion, is of too much value to just stop existing when death comes. Another thing is that alot of atheists start worrying about the destination of their previously non existent soul when they are about to die.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Dumb friends? Where did you get that from?
> 
> 2011 hits and I start thinking. Thinking kills any irrational beliefs. You should try it some time.


Your atheist friends. Thinking is what proves to me that god has to be real. The universe is too complex to have happened by chance. I am proof that god exists. The earths perfect size and distance from the sun is proof. The way that our cells and DNA work is proof. Having a child... that to me is more proof than I need. The love and innocence that a child brings into your life... its more than words can explain.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Your atheist friends. Thinking is what proves to me that god has to be real. The universe is too complex to have happened by chance. I am proof that god exists. The earths perfect size and distance from the sun is proof. The way that our cells and DNA work is proof. Having a child... that to me is more proof than I need. The love and innocence that a child brings into your life... its more than words can explain.


How are they dumb though? did you read my edit?


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I have plenty of proof. Its not my fault that proof isnt good enuf for atheists.


Let me explain once more. I understand you believe and you think the proof you have is sufficient. However, if you want to convince another person that your belief has merit, you MUST present good REASONS for this belief, otherwise, people will continue to reject your claim as unreasonable. I have a dragon in my garage. It is an invisible dragon and breathes heatless fire. You can't see him but I know he's there and that proof is good enough for me. If someone called that an irrational belief, they would be right in spite of the fact that I know my dragon is real. What you think is true has absolutely no bearing on whether it appears as an irrational belief to other people or not. As I said, rational beliefs can be backed up with rational reasons. Claiming proof that is not good enough to withstand a court proceeding certainly isn't going to sway many people.


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## Metasynth (Jun 27, 2012)

patlpp said:


> Why a particular denomination? I didn't say that , I said God, as in salvation, redemption. You will see the beauty of life as Gods gift to you when you are about to lose it. A moment of clarity LOL


 Not fair to call that a "god" then, if you suddenly see the greater meaning of things before you are about to pass. To many, that might be interpeted as "god", but to many others, it's just realizing the preciousness of life.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 27, 2012)

The last paragraph is a joke. He acts like its his moral duty to spend countless hours trying to convince believers that their beliefs are irrational and that they shouldnt believe in them. Cant believe this blow hard is a spirituality mod.


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> I'll take that bet. How would you like to pay? https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/510838-atheists-foxholes.html





Kaendar said:


> Exactly. When people are about to die, majority of them snap back into realizing that life is too precious for a god not to exist. Our minds, thoughts, emotions, love, passion, is of too much value to just stop existing when death comes. Another thing is that alot of atheists start worrying about the destination of their previously non existent soul when they are about to die.


It looks like you missed it the first time. You can send me a wire transfer or paypal.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Exactly. When people are about to die, majority of them snap back into realizing that life is too precious for a god not to exist. Our minds, thoughts, emotions, love, passion, is of too much value to just stop existing when death comes. Another thing is that alot of atheists start worrying about the destination of their previously non existent soul when they are about to die.


It's hard to grasp dude. It's scary to realize you're nothing but a flicker of light.

People used to tell me this stuff and I'd get mad, much like what you do. Now that I see what they mean, I can appreciate them and realize that they didn't mean any harm. Hopefuly one day you'll be able to look back and realize that we weren't trying to be dicks in the beginning. Maybe someday you'll overcome your fears. Yeah yeah.. go ahead and say you're not like me and your faith won't fade. But deep down you know the truth. I just hope you deal with it better than I did.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

patlpp said:


> When you face inevitable death, you will pray to God. Trust me.


When you are faced with death, will you pray to Zeus? How about Poseidon? Xenu? Tabaldak? 

No? Why, is it because you do not believe in them? I don't believe in any God, so how will I know which one to pray to upon death?


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> The last paragraph is a joke. He acts like its his moral duty to spend countless hours trying to convince believers that their beliefs are irrational and that they shouldnt believe in them. Cant believe this blow hard is a spirituality mod.


It seems you keep ignoring posts
https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/536326-we-know-nothing-really-2.html#post7625079


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## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> When you are faced with death, will you pray to Zeus? How about Poseidon? Xenu? Tabaldak?
> 
> No? Why, is it because you do not believe in them? I don't believe in any God, so how will I know which one to pray to upon death?


No, he'll pray to hephaestus.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> It seems you keep ignoring posts
> https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/536326-we-know-nothing-really-2.html#post7625079


Are you saying I should report him if I got a problem? Wtf will that do? Im sure who ever made him mod agrees with his beliefs and intentions, and they are quite alright with him sermonizing the god out of the believers.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I have plenty of proof. Its not my fault that proof isnt good enuf for atheists.


Your proof is not good enough by ANY standard in which we judge proof in ANY area of life, and it is your fault actually.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Nice thread pad.
> 
> At this moment I'm having a serious brain fart and I can't really remember my journey. I will give what I can remember though.
> 
> ...


Beautiful to read, and not so different from my own experience.

I was once shackled to a belief that held no foundation in reality. The thought that could happen alone is scary enough, but it's very scary to actually believe the teachings of Christianity, especially at a young, impressionable age. I'm at the point, now, where I believe teaching a child whose unable to comprehend such concepts is child abuse. No different from teaching a child it's wrong to be homosexual. They do it to trap them into the belief at such a young age. It's wrong..

Without that, they know their religion would die off in one or two generations because it can't hold up to logistical claims. Claims made real by the application of science (another reason they oppose it so much..). Bullshit is hard to pass when the truth is a click away... 

This is why I'm highly confident in the youth of the nation.. Most of them won't be taken in by the bullshit, they'll realize the truth without having to research every facet of lies in print. It has become virtually impossible to con the masses into believing a lie (with the exception of politics).. 

Get used to it.


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Are you saying I should report him if I got a problem? Wtf will that do? Im sure who ever made him mod agrees with his beliefs and intentions, and they are quite alright with him sermonizing the god out of the believers.


Did you read the whole post? I pointed out why your constant complaining about this is not only fallacious but incredibly stupid and it's getting quite tiresome. I have to hear people complain at work all day, most of the time about stupid stuff, but your complaint takes on a whole new level of stupid. Who should mod the political forum, a democrat or republican? Who should the S&S&P mod be, a highly spiritual person that disallows criticism of spiritual arguments? Do you honestly think that's fair? Has Pad actually censored you or prevented from offering your POV? Your complaint is vacuous, give it up already.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Beautiful to read, and not so different from my own experience.
> 
> I was once shackled to a belief that held no foundation in reality. The thought that could happen alone is scary enough, but it's very scary to actually believe the teachings of Christianity, especially at a young, impressionable age. I'm at the point, now, where I believe teaching a child whose unable to comprehend such concepts is child abuse. No different from teaching a child it's wrong to be homosexual. They do it to trap them into the belief at such a young age. It's wrong..
> 
> ...


Thanks dude.

Yeah it was a scary belief. They baited me in during my early years and hooked me with fear tactics in my later years. Fucked up if you ask me. It's even more scary to leave your beliefs behind. 

Poor kids. It is really fucked up. My little sister believes that her rabbit went to heaven. She told me that the other day. I didn't know what to say. I just told her the rabbit had a good life. My father could have taught her a different way. He could have taught her of the circle of life. Instead, he started the cycle of faith all over again. It kind of kills me to hear her believe in lies. And that's on a small scale. I hope she steers clear out of the way of religion. I hope she can just be happy realizing she has this one awesome life. 

I hope the best for the youngest generations.


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## patlpp (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I just told her the rabbit had a good life. .


Well you lied too...


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Let me explain once more. I understand you believe and you think the proof you have is sufficient. However, if you want to convince another person that your belief has merit, you MUST present good REASONS for this belief, otherwise, people will continue to reject your claim as unreasonable. I have a dragon in my garage. It is an invisible dragon and breathes heatless fire. You can't see him but I know he's there and that proof is good enough for me. If someone called that an irrational belief, they would be right in spite of the fact that I know my dragon is real. What you think is true has absolutely no bearing on whether it appears as an irrational belief to other people or not. As I said, rational beliefs can be backed up with rational reasons. Claiming proof that is not good enough to withstand a court proceeding certainly isn't going to sway many people.


I have more proof than just my belief. Miracles are all the proof I need. Bill collectors suddenly being unable to find the account in debt, tumors disappearing, surviving injuries that should have killed.. the universe!


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## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Isn't this enough?


Just this world?


Just this beautiful, complex
Wonderfully unfathomable, NATURAL world?
How does it so fail to hold our attention
That we have to diminish it with the invention
Of cheap, man-made Myths and Monsters?
If you're so into Shakespeare
Lend me your ear:
*To gild refined gold, to paint the lily,*
*To throw perfume on the violet is just fucking silly*
Or something like that.


But here's what gives me a hard-on:
I am a tiny, insignificant, ignorant lump of carbon.
I have one life, and it is short
And unimportant
But thanks to recent scientific advances
I get to live twice as long 
As my great great great great uncleses and auntses.
Twice as long to live this life of mine
Twice as long to love this wife of mine
Twice as many years of friends and wine


[video=youtube;y1yxDWxUIM0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1yxDWxUIM0&amp;[/video]


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Thanks dude.
> 
> Yeah it was a scary belief. They baited me in during my early years and hooked me with fear tactics in my later years. Fucked up if you ask me. It's even more scary to leave your beliefs behind.
> 
> ...


The more you reveal, the more it applies to my own life, man.. 

I have a little sister, 5 years younger than me. She used to be highly into youth group. For anyone who doesn't know what that is, it's a group of religious people who get together weekly an discuss religion and the benefit it has on the individuals life. Absolutely nothing to frown upon or look down upon, it's a positive group only looking to improve the quality of their lives. Totally admirable. I know people who still go to youth group who are excellent individuals who should be looked at as moral guidelines. They're great people. But I expressed my views on organized religion to her, let her know what I believe and most importantly, why, and she evaluated her opinions. 

Now, she's an atheist, with little belief in a physical God that controls the universe... 

She's also a more humane individual than before.. 

I find it interesting, most people, once they accept the logistics of atheism, tend to disagree with capital punishment or anything similar... Smart, obvious human rights issues and subjects seem to become logical for some weird reason once people see the absurdity of their previous beliefs based on shaky foundations... HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!


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## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> *I have more proof than just my belief. Miracles are all the proof I need.* Bill collectors suddenly being unable to find the account in debt, tumors disappearing, surviving injuries that should have killed.. the universe!


You've just said "I have more proof than just my belief, my belief is all the proof I need", and then go on to demonstrate a disregard for parsimony.


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I have more proof than just my belief. Miracles are all the proof I need. Bill collectors suddenly being unable to find the account in debt, tumors disappearing, surviving injuries that should have killed.. the universe!


None of that means anything to any other person that you must convince. Your experiences are irrelevant to another person. Your belief in miracles that may or may not have occurred isn't enough to convince me. 
My dragon speaks to me, he creates miracles and heals disease too. I have proof my dragon exists.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

patlpp said:


> Well you lied too...


That rabbit doesn't have a conscious mind. Saying it had a good life was my opnion. It's not a lie. 


Not sure if that was a joke or not. I have a feeling that you had an agenda behind that question though.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> None of that means anything to any other person that you must convince. Your experiences are irrelevant to another person. Your belief in miracles that may or may not have occurred isn't enough to convince me.
> My dragon speaks to me, he creates miracles and heals disease too. I have proof my dragon exists.


If I saw your dragon create a miracle or heal a disease that would be more than enuf proof for me.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> The more you reveal, the more it applies to my own life, man..
> 
> I have a little sister, 5 years younger than me. She used to be highly into youth group. For anyone who doesn't know what that is, it's a group of religious people who get together weekly an discuss religion and the benefit it has on the individuals life. Absolutely nothing to frown upon or look down upon, it's a positive group only looking to improve the quality of their lives. Totally admirable. I know people who still go to youth group who are excellent individuals who should be looked at as moral guidelines. They're great people. But I expressed my views on organized religion to her, let her know what I believe and most importantly, why, and she evaluated her opinions.
> 
> ...


I notice many coerellations with people that lose their religions. I'll refrain myself from saying them since I can think of two people that would take it offensively. I noticed many with myself. One of them is my spelling. It seems to have improved alot. Another is my thinking proccess. I put alot more thought into everything than I did before. 

Did your sister go through a hard time? What does she think about her youth group now? If my sister gets mad at me for something that has to do with religion or if she's curious about my views when she's older, I'll let her know what I believe (or don't believe).


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> That rabbit doesn't have a conscious mind. Saying it had a good life was my opnion. It's not a lie.
> 
> 
> Not sure if that was a joke or not. I have a feeling that you had an agenda behind that question though.


Did it really tho.. how would u feel living in captivity?


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Did you read the whole post? I pointed out why your constant complaining about this is not only fallacious but incredibly stupid and it's getting quite tiresome. I have to hear people complain at work all day, most of the time about stupid stuff, but your complaint takes on a whole new level of stupid. Who should mod the political forum, a democrat or republican? Who should the S&S&P mod be, a highly spiritual person that disallows criticism of spiritual arguments? Do you honestly think that's fair? Has Pad actually censored you or prevented from offering your POV? Your complaint is vacuous, give it up already.


The horse you sit on is becoming more apparent. It was always apparent actually. Even when more well spoken individuals present a good argument you act like what they say doesnt matter, convinced that only your point of view can be right and you simply dismiss what they have to say. Your more big headed than that ugly guy in your avatar with the five head... So to have a spiritual mod to look after the SPIRITUALITY, Sexuality, and Philosophy forum would be unfair? Someone to bring balance to this subforum of nut hugging know it all atheists is unfair? Compared to a stone cold materialist whos apparent goal is to try and convince believers that they'er thinking irrationally and shouldnt have their beliefs? I dont care if anyone questions god, I dont think I even argued god here. Its the fact that its his GOAL to try and convince believers that their beliefs are irrational, in what way is that different from a crazy christian trying to recruit followers to christ? Please, tell me. As a mod, its not his job to convince believers that the concept of "spirit" is irrational, because hes a fucking spirituality mod. Why do you even need to question our spiritual beliefs anyways? We know what you think, we heard atheists our whole lives saying that believing in god is stupid, if they dont change our views, what makes you think you can? The only reason I can think of that you band of nut hugging know-it-all question spiritual beliefs is to boost your already soaring ego, to further convince you that theists are mentally superior and that you have a better grasp on reality than they do. You are not changing anything with your blow hard responses against spiritual beliefs, give it up already.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Did it really tho.. how would u feel living in captivity?


A hell of alot better than living in the wilderness struggling for life.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I notice many coerellations with people that lose their religions. I'll refrain myself from saying them since I can think of two people that would take it offensively. I noticed many with myself. One of them is my spelling. It seems to have improved alot. Another is my thinking proccess. I put alot more thought into everything than I did before.
> 
> Did your sister go through a hard time? What does she think about her youth group now? If my sister gets mad at me for something that has to do with religion or if she's curious about my views when she's older, I'll let her know what I believe (or don't believe).


Funny how you guys convince yourselves of that. Most atheists I know are assholes and seem to hate everyone but themselves. I was once neighbors with an avid atheist, who every morning would try and come out and prove everybody wrong about some bullshit. Most atheists I know enjoy being atheists because they get a hard on everytime they can present their "logic" to someone and feel superior. On the other hand, every person I know from my old church is loving, caring, humble, doesnt like confrontation or revenge, and ready to give up everything to help the next person, even an atheist. All the homeless shelters and missions are run by religious people. Alot of the youth after school programs are run by religious people. It seems to me that religious people try and make the world a better place, while atheists call them dumbasses over the computer. I have never once in my life seen an atheist commit one charitable or otherwise selfless act for a stranger.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> A hell of alot better than living in the wilderness struggling for life.


You are wrong about that.. when animals are in captivity and not in their natural environment it causes a great deal of stress. From a rabbit to a lizard.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> The horse you sit on is becoming more apparent. It was always apparent actually. Even when more well spoken individuals present a good argument you act like what they say doesnt matter, convinced that only your point of view can be right and you simply dismiss what they have to say. Your more big headed than that ugly guy in your avatar with the five head... So to have a spiritual mod to look after the SPIRITUALITY, Sexuality, and Philosophy forum would be unfair? Someone to bring balance to this subforum of nut hugging know it all atheists is unfair? Compared to a stone cold materialist whos apparent goal is to try and convince believers that they'er thinking irrationally and shouldnt have their beliefs? I dont care if anyone questions god, I dont think I even argued god here. Its the fact that its his GOAL to try and convince believers that their beliefs are irrational, in what way is that different from a crazy christian trying to recruit followers to christ? Please, tell me. As a mod, its not his job to convince believers that the concept of "spirit" is irrational, because hes a fucking spirituality mod. Why do you even need to question our spiritual beliefs anyways? We know what you think, we heard atheists our whole lives saying that believing in god is stupid, if they dont change our views, what makes you think you can? The only reason I can think of that you band of nut hugging know-it-all question spiritual beliefs is to boost your already soaring ego, to further convince you that theists are mentally superior and that you have a better grasp on reality than they do. You are not changing anything with your blow hard responses against spiritual beliefs, give it up already.


Exactly what im saying. Why keep trying to prove we are wrong? Its a waste of time.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Funny how you guys convince yourselves of that. Most atheists I know are assholes and seem to hate everyone but themselves. I was once neighbors with an avid atheist, who every morning would try and come out and prove everybody wrong about some bullshit. Most atheists I know enjoy being atheists because they get a hard on everytime they can present their "logic" to someone and feel superior. On the other hand, every person I know from my old church is loving, caring, humble, doesnt like confrontation or revenge, and ready to give up everything to help the next person, even an atheist. *All the homeless shelters and missions are run by religious people.* Alot of the youth after school programs are run by religious people. It seems to me that religious people try and make the world a better place, while atheists call them dumbasses over the computer. *I have never once in my life seen an atheist commit one charitable or otherwise selfless act for a stranger.*



Atheist Centre of India
An atheist charity organization helping people since the 1940s. supports intercaste marriages and actively works to end child marriages and caste separation. The also provide aid to women in distress such as single mothers and prostitutes and promote equality of the sexes.

Foundation Beyond Belief
atheist charity which launched January 1, 2010. Each quarter Foundation Beyond Belief features five charitable organizations. Members can choose which cause or causes to support from the featured causes.

EARTHWARD, Inc.
Atheist group that provides humanitarian aid for victims of religious conflicts

Fellowship of Freethought
organizes blood drives, collects food for local food banks, participates in holiday toy drives for needy children, and collects donations for deployed soldiers.

Atheist Relief Fund
Atheist Relief Fund is currently raising money to help earthquake victims in Haiti.

Atheists Helping the Homeless
Atheists providing small comforts to homeless people

Secular Center USA
Performs various secular volunteer activities including food bank donations, Humane Society Dog Walk, and aiding local animal shelters.

The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation
A giant charity organization which performs relief efforts, fights poverty and disease, spreads education, and provides medical assistance to people in need. The Gates Foundation's efforts to fight malaria and AIDS in Africa are of unparalleled scope.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Atheist Centre of India
> An atheist charity organization helping people since the 1940s. supports intercaste marriages and actively works to end child marriages and caste separation. The also provide aid to women in distress such as single mothers and prostitutes and promote equality of the sexes.
> 
> Foundation Beyond Belief
> ...


For every one of those I can provide 100 religious charities. This one is impossible for you to win. Give up and admit that religions do more to help ppl than anyone else.


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## Shannon Alexander (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> You are wrong about that.. when animals are in captivity and not in their natural environment it causes a great deal of stress. From a rabbit to a lizard.


From a rabbit to a lizard to a human being, captivity fucks up all animals...


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## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> For every one of those I can provide 100 religious charities. This one is impossible for you to win. Give up and admit that religions do more to help ppl than anyone else.



"*Moving the goalposts* is an informal logical fallacy in which previously agreed upon standards for deciding an argument are arbitrarily changed once they have been met. This is usually done by the "losing" side of an argument in a *desperate* bid to save face."

This was your statement.



Kaendar said:


> I have never once in my life seen an atheist commit one charitable or otherwise selfless act for a stranger.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> "*Moving the goalposts* is an informal logical fallacy in which previously agreed upon standards for deciding an argument are arbitrarily changed once they have been met. This is usually done by the "losing" side of an argument in a *desperate* bid to save face."
> 
> This was your statement.


You have holes in your logic. First, we never agreed on shit. Second, I said I have never seen, I didnt say it didnt happen. So you fail, once again.


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> The horse you sit on is becoming more apparent. It was always apparent actually. Even when more well spoken individuals present a good argument you act like what they say doesnt matter, convinced that only your point of view can be right and you simply dismiss what they have to say. Your more big headed than that ugly guy in your avatar with the five head... So to have a spiritual mod to look after the SPIRITUALITY, Sexuality, and Philosophy forum would be unfair? Someone to bring balance to this subforum of nut hugging know it all atheists is unfair? Compared to a stone cold materialist whos apparent goal is to try and convince believers that they'er thinking irrationally and shouldnt have their beliefs? I dont care if anyone questions god, I dont think I even argued god here. Its the fact that its his GOAL to try and convince believers that their beliefs are irrational, in what way is that different from a crazy christian trying to recruit followers to christ? Please, tell me. As a mod, its not his job to convince believers that the concept of "spirit" is irrational, because hes a fucking spirituality mod. Why do you even need to question our spiritual beliefs anyways? We know what you think, we heard atheists our whole lives saying that believing in god is stupid, if they dont change our views, what makes you think you can? The only reason I can think of that you band of nut hugging know-it-all question spiritual beliefs is to boost your already soaring ego, to further convince you that theists are mentally superior and that you have a better grasp on reality than they do. You are not changing anything with your blow hard responses against spiritual beliefs, give it up already.


Why is it you never seem to answer anyone's questions. You just answered mine with more questions. Your questions are straw men in disguise. I never said a spiritual mod would be bad. I asked you whether one that disallowed criticism of spiritual arguments would be okay with you. Maybe English is a second language for you, IDK but to constantly misrepresent what other posters have said is also getting quite tiring. 

Do you think mods are not allowed to participate in the forums they moderate? Are you unable to grasp the concept of Pad's personal views and his job as a mod are separate? These are rhetorical questions, you don't have to answer. Everyone else here knows the answer but you pretend to not understand so that you can continue on with your whining and complaining. 

I sincerely doubt you have heard atheists say anything to you your whole life. Atheists do not make it a habit of going around discussing things they don't believe in with strangers. This is a forum to discuss philosophical beliefs including spiritual and non-spiritual just as a celibate is free to talk about not having sex in this sexuality forum. Quit acting like only spiritual people should be allowed to post or mod this forum. This isn't your website or your decision and either complain to Mr. Rollitup and present your argument why he shouldn't mod this forum or STFU already.


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## Metasynth (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> For every one of those I can provide 100 religious charities. This one is impossible for you to win. Give up and admit that religions do more to help ppl than anyone else.


Yup, just ignore all the pain, suffering, and war that religion has caused throughout history too.


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## bud nugbong (Jun 27, 2012)

I "lost my religion" not that i ever really had one, More like stopped wondering. Yes, stopped wondering around the age of 12-13. After being exposed to the planet for a while i began to realise none of what i was told about god could ever happen. all of the bible storys (adam + eve, noahs ark) were just nonsese. 

aslo saw the MANY other religions out there and saw it all as just gangs or cults i guess. I didnt feel like i needed to be a part of a cult. and if you join a gang your weak right?

Then all of that crazy stuff with priest raping boys, and all of the other bad things in history centered around religion. (holocaust, muslim extremists) i know these are just extreme examples but its mostly about god/gods.

I dont like to bring it up to people, i let believers do there thing in peace. It really is a waste of time arguing about it. and definatly not worth fighting and killing about. I do try to do good by others as well, not a big doner of time and money, but im not dressed in black all emo and shit. just a jolly good fellow, especially when im baked.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

bud nugbong said:


> I "lost my religion" not that i ever really had one, More like stopped wondering. Yes, stopped wondering around the age of 12-13. After being exposed to the planet for a while i began to realise none of what i was told about god could ever happen. all of the bible storys (adam + eve, noahs ark) were just nonsese.
> 
> aslo saw the MANY other religions out there and saw it all as just gangs or cults i guess. I didnt feel like i needed to be a part of a cult. and if you join a gang your weak right?
> 
> ...


The bible gives clear idea of where the garden of eaden was located, and there is physical proof that the ark existed so how is that nonsense. Scientists have also found evidence to prove the great flood happened and also the events at Sodom and gamhora, and many other bible "stories". When science proves its true I have to stop doubting it.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Metasynth said:


> Yup, just ignore all the pain, suffering, and war that religion has caused throughout history too.


Thats not in question right now. Right now were speaking about who does more to improve the qualities of peoples life, religious groups or atheist groups. There is a clear champion.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> You have holes in your logic. First, we never agreed on shit. Second, I said I have never seen, I didnt say it didnt happen. So you fail, once again.



You said you never have seen, and i've showed you. The failure was yours when you thought you could move goalposts without being noticed. There is ample evidence of atheists being charitable, which means your entire premise is false. You could have acknowledged that and rescinded your statement, but you engaged in a desperate trick to distract from your aberration, because you are a bigot.

That is how you point out holes in someones logic.


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## Shannon Alexander (Jun 27, 2012)

I have yet to see scientific proof that there was a vessel large enough to hold 7 mating pairs of each of the Clean animals of the world and 1 mating pair of all the unclean animals...


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> The bible gives clear idea of where the garden of eaden was located


Nope. It is so unclear to make many possible locations. 


> and there is physical proof that the ark existed


wrong. something like this would make more newspapers than just the weekly world news


> Scientists have also found evidence to prove the great flood happened


nonsense. Zero geologic evidence of a world-wide deluge. Local flooding post ice age accounts for all flood myths. 



> and also the events at Sodom and gamhora,


Not quite. 


> and many other bible "stories". When science proves its true I have to stop doubting it.


You really need to stop getting your 'proof' from fundamentalists websites and sources.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> You said you never have seen, and i've showed you. The failure was yours when you thought you could move goalposts without being noticed. There is ample evidence of atheists being charitable, which means your entire premise is false. You could have acknowledged that and rescinded your statement, but you engaged in a desperate trick to distract from your aberration, because you are a bigot.
> 
> That is how you point out holes in someones logic.


You snaked your way around the fact that I pointed out that you were wrong. Once again, I said I have not seen, I didnt deny that it happened, so that means your entire premise is false. You are an obvious bigot and you just lost this debate. Admit defeat or continue to prove what an asshole you are.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Thats not in question right now. Right now were speaking about who does more to improve the qualities of peoples life, religious groups or atheist groups. There is a clear champion.


What do you suppose you will gain from pointing out that a lie can be more comforting than the truth? None of the good religion does is proprietary, yet the potential evil is quite unique.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Why is it you never seem to answer anyone's questions. You just answered mine with more questions. Your questions are straw men in disguise. I never said a spiritual mod would be bad. I asked you whether one that disallowed criticism of spiritual arguments would be okay with you. Maybe English is a second language for you, IDK but to constantly misrepresent what other posters have said is also getting quite tiring.
> 
> Do you think mods are not allowed to participate in the forums they moderate? Are you unable to grasp the concept of Pad's personal views and his job as a mod are separate? These are rhetorical questions, you don't have to answer. Everyone else here knows the answer but you pretend to not understand so that you can continue on with your whining and complaining.
> 
> I sincerely doubt you have heard atheists say anything to you your whole life. Atheists do not make it a habit of going around discussing things they don't believe in with strangers. This is a forum to discuss philosophical beliefs including spiritual and non-spiritual just as a celibate is free to talk about not having sex in this sexuality forum. Quit acting like only spiritual people should be allowed to post or mod this forum. This isn't your website or your decision and either complain to Mr. Rollitup and present your argument why he shouldn't mod this forum or STFU already.


Another example of the high horse you mount yourself on, I highly doubt it is possible to knock you off of it because you are that full of yourself. I told you I dont give a fuck about people criticizing spiritual views. Its the fact that its his goal to try and turn believer into "rational" thinking atheists. I answered your questions, now please answer mine Mr. Horseman. How is Pad trying to convince believers that their beliefs are irrational and that they shouldnt believe in god any different from crazy christians trying to make you follow jesus? How is it different? Answer this one too. I've had plenty of discussions with atheists about god, around campfires, living rooms, all while passing a joint and discussing other stoner subjects like aliens. Its what stoners do, get in a circle, smoke weed and talk. So why do you feel the need to question a theists beliefs when they already know what you are gunna say? We know your stance on such discussions, and you should know the chances of changing our views are slim to none. So why bother? Whats the purpose? What comes out of it? Like I said, you know our spiritual views wont budge, so the only reason I can think of is to further convince yourself that your way of thinking is superior, the horse gets higher and the saddle straps you in. I'd very much like to hear another explanation on why you question beliefs, if there is another explanation.


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## Shannon Alexander (Jun 27, 2012)

Wait... you mean the religious groups that tell the AIDS ridden African nations to not use condoms..?


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Once again, I said I have not seen, I didnt deny that it happened, so that means your entire premise is false.


Post # 65 SHOWS you what you claim you have no seen. 

I can only imagine what you'll argue next...


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## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> You snaked your way around the fact that I pointed out that you were wrong. Once again, I said I have not seen, I didnt deny that it happened, so that means your entire premise is false. You are an obvious bigot and you just lost this debate. Admit defeat or continue to prove what an asshole you are.


And now we move on to the false dilemma. By continuing to debate you I prove myself wrong? Wouldn't it be nice for you if that were true.

Indulge me please and point out again where I was wrong. Your insinuation was that atheists do nothing to help anyone but themselves. That obviously isn't true.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Nope. It is so unclear to make many possible locations.
> wrong. something like this would make more newspapers than just the weekly world newsnonsense. Zero geologic evidence of a world-wide deluge. Local flooding post ice age accounts for all flood myths.
> 
> Not quite.
> You really need to stop getting your 'proof' from fundamentalists websites and sources.


It gives the general area it was located (iraq, surrounding area). As far as the Ark, the government of Turkey is being an ass and not letting anyone get near it anymore, making it a top secret site. The flood, well do a simple google search and you will find plenty of science articles. " We found that indeed a flood happened around that time. From core samples, we see that a flood broke through the natural barrier separating the Mediterranean Sea and the freshwater Black Sea, bringing with it seashells that only grow in a marine environment. There was no doubt that it was a fast flood -- one that covered an expanse four times the size of Israel."


​


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Post # 65 SHOWS you what you claim you have no seen.
> 
> I can only imagine what you'll argue next...


Exactly! I said I havent seen, not that it didnt happen.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> And now we move on to the false dilemma. By continuing to debate you I prove myself wrong? Wouldn't it be nice for you if that were true.
> 
> Indulge me please and point out again where I was wrong. Your insinuation was that atheists do nothing to help anyone but themselves. That obviously isn't true.


An "insinuation" is subjective. You are trying to make it seem like I said atheists do nothing for charity, when what I said was I havent seen them. Big difference.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> The bible gives *clear idea* of where the garden of eaden was located





Kaendar said:


> It gives the *general area* it was located ​


​Why is it that you do not apply any responsibility to your words until someone else points out the flaws? And even then, you only change them enough to disarm the opposition, but never do you adjust your actual views. When we call you a bigot, this is the sort of behavior we are referring to.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> [/LEFT]
> Why is it that you do not apply any responsibility to your words until someone else points out the flaws? And even then, you only change them enough to disarm the opposition, but never do you adjust your actual views. When we call you a bigot, this is the sort of behavior we are referring to.


Dude, you are pointing out technicalities in my post. I never changed my story or anything. It does give the general area very clearly lol.. whether it gave the general idea or the clear idea I will still point to the same area on the map.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> An "insinuation" is subjective. You are trying to make it seem like I said atheists do nothing for charity, when what I said was I havent seen them. Big difference.


So what is the value in your seeing it? What qualification does your personal witness add? You are grasping at straws to avoid being wrong on such a clearly laid out subject. Unless you can explain why your seeing the behavior means anything to the sentiment, then there is no difference.

Non sequitur (Latin for "it does not follow"), in formal logic, is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises. In a non sequitur, the conclusion could be either true or false, but the argument is fallacious because there is a *disconnection between the premise and the conclusion*.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> So what is the value in your seeing it? What qualification does your personal witness add? You are grasping at straws to avoid being wrong on such a clearly laid out subject. Unless you can explain why your seeing the behavior means anything to the sentiment, then there is no difference.
> 
> Non sequitur (Latin for "it does not follow"), in formal logic, is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises. In a non sequitur, the conclusion could be either true or false, but the argument is fallacious because there is a *disconnection between the premise and the conclusion*.


Grasping at straws?? Dude go look at the mirror and every post you write. That is all you do. You argue over the tiniest shit to try and make yourself seem right. You grasp at straws all fucking day. To end the argument, I said I have never seen an atheist commit an act of selflessness. You then provided examples of atheists charities and I told you there is way more religious charities, at which point you started lying and saying I was twisting shit.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Grasping at straws?? Dude go look at the mirror and every post you write. That is all you do. You argue over the tiniest shit to try and make yourself seem right. You grasp at straws all fucking day. To end the argument, I said I have never seen an atheist commit an act of selflessness. You then provided examples of atheists charities and I told you there is way more religious charities, at which point you started lying and saying I was twisting shit.



Is the point you're trying to make "religious people give more than atheists!"? Because if it is, who the fuck cares? Do you think that makes religious people more right than atheists?


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> It gives the general area it was located (iraq, surrounding area). As far as the Ark, the government of Turkey is being an ass and not letting anyone get near it anymore, making it a top secret site.


There would have to have been proof prior to that for you to claim it as proof. 


> The flood, well do a simple google search and you will find plenty of science articles. "


Don't put your work onto me. YOU made the claim. It's YOUR job to back it up. I have done plenty of research and there is no evidence of a worldwide deluge supported by any reputable geologists.


> We found that indeed a flood happened around that time. From core samples, we see that a flood broke through the natural barrier separating the Mediterranean Sea and the freshwater Black Sea, bringing with it seashells that only grow in a marine environment. There was no doubt that it was a fast flood -- one that covered an expanse four times the size of Israel."
> ​


Right, and I mentioned large regional floods, including the one in the Black Sea basin. Did you forget that you have proof of a worldwide flood, not just a large regional one? There is a clear evidence with that and other large, regional floods that are explained by glacial retreat at the end of the last ice age.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> There would have to have been proof prior to that for you to claim it as proof.
> Don't put your work onto me. YOU made the claim. It's YOUR job to back it up. I have done plenty of research and there is no evidence of a worldwide deluge supported by any reputable geologists.
> Right, and I mentioned large regional floods, including the one in the Black Sea basin. There is a clear timeline with that and other large, regional floods that are explained by glacial retreat at the end of the last ice age.


I never said the great flood in the bible was worldwide.. im able to realize that it was probably just in the middle east. And this was way after the last ice age.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I never said the great flood in the bible was worldwide.. im able to realize that it was probably just in the middle east. And this was way after the last ice age.


So the bible is true because there is historical evidence for the things it says, like the flood, except the flood is different from the evidence we find, and that's okay?

If it wasn't worldwide then it isn't evidence of the great flood. If the great flood wasn't worldwide, then it isn't the flood the bible is talking about.


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## brotherjericho (Jun 27, 2012)

patlpp said:


> When you face inevitable death, you will pray to God. Trust me.


We all face inevitable death.


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## brotherjericho (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> For every one of those I can provide 100 religious charities. This one is impossible for you to win. Give up and admit that religions do more to help ppl than anyone else.


Duh, there are more religious people than out in the open atheists. Numbers are already on their side.


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## Doer (Jun 27, 2012)

Seems the evidence of a comet strike in the Indian Ocean, perhaps ~8K years ago, proposes the likely explaination for the Great Flood. The Bible is not the only source, even in the Middle East. The epic of Gligamaish is about this flood, in part. I've been reading some research on it. Over 175 culture myths can be collated to show the possible epi-center. And now Google Earth can show some incedible herringbone pattens like we see at the beach when the water pushes up and then receeds.

Except these wave patterns are 1000 feet cliffs of sand deposit.


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## UncleBuck (Jun 27, 2012)

but seriously though, all it took was for me to lose that baseball. what was the point of that?


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## tip top toker (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I have never once in my life seen an atheist commit one charitable or otherwise selfless act for a stranger.


Chances are you live with your eyes closed then  And so when you do see someone do a selfless act for a stranger, how do you know they are not an atheist? Do you go around asking every person you see do such an act what their religious status is?

Just because you're too lind to see something doesn't mean it does not happen. I bought a homeless man a pint of milk the other day. 

I think your above statement just rather proves how worthwhile your input is..


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## UncleBuck (Jun 27, 2012)

tip top toker said:


> I bought a homeless man a pint of milk the other day.


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## BrenchToast (Jun 27, 2012)

There is no god


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## Zaehet Strife (Jun 27, 2012)

BrenchToast said:


> There is no god


As far as we can tell.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Funny how you guys convince yourselves of that. Most atheists I know are assholes and seem to hate everyone but themselves. I was once neighbors with an avid atheist, who every morning would try and come out and prove everybody wrong about some bullshit. Most atheists I know enjoy being atheists because they get a hard on everytime they can present their "logic" to someone and feel superior. On the other hand, every person I know from my old church is loving, caring, humble, doesnt like confrontation or revenge, and ready to give up everything to help the next person, even an atheist. All the homeless shelters and missions are run by religious people. Alot of the youth after school programs are run by religious people. It seems to me that religious people try and make the world a better place, while atheists call them dumbasses over the computer. I have never once in my life seen an atheist commit one charitable or otherwise selfless act for a stranger.


You're so wrong kaendar. Not all atheists are logical. You can't group atheists together since they have nothing alike besides their disbelief for god. Some may be good and some may be bad but that doesn't stem from their atheism.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> You are wrong about that.. when animals are in captivity and not in their natural environment it causes a great deal of stress. From a rabbit to a lizard.


They care about survival. So when a snake or lizard doesn't have heat they will become stressed. When a rabbit doesn't have food, it will be stressed. But the rabbit was taken good care of.
It's not like it was locked in a cage all day. It was trained so it would run around their house all day.

Don't say that the house is still a cage. I've seen many indoor dogs run outside and end up being found dead a couple days later. In one case, my friend opened his door and his dog ran outside quickly. He started barking at a dog and chased it.. In the middle of his chase, he was struck by a car. It's much more relaxing to lay on carpet than get struck by a car.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> So the bible is true because there is historical evidence for the things it says, like the flood, except the flood is different from the evidence we find, and that's okay?
> 
> If it wasn't worldwide then it isn't evidence of the great flood. If the great flood wasn't worldwide, then it isn't the flood the bible is talking about.


You need to brush up on your bible skills. Religious scholars have for the most part agreed that the flood wasnt worldwide. Thats now an accepted fact.


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## tip top toker (Jun 27, 2012)

O right, so the bible is a complete exageration about the true powers of the divine. Who would have thought  but moses really did part the seas, it's no joke, no exageration, that shit happened.



Don't panic anyone, remember, the bible is open to interpretation, that is the joy of christianity  

Personally, i have ZERO respect for christians, nothing but double standards, damn, i mean i respect trade center bombing muslims far more than i do christians. I mean what the fuck is all this bollocks about turning the other cheek, like fuck you do. Christians for some reason enjoy contradicting everything their faith supposedly is. The funniest thing of all to me is that your so called 10 commandments. Here was me thinking sunday was the day of no work, yet for some reason christians think right, we can't work, so we shall use this day for our weekly services. Fail. But wait, oh right, Jesus violated the 10 commandments, to prove, um, that they're a joke. Lol, christans are funny. Especially ones who think a "miracle" is somehow proof of god and as such that they are being rational. lolololol

christianity, one of the bigger jokes of history.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

tip top toker said:


> O right, so the bible is a complete exageration about the true powers of the divine. Who would have thought  but moses really did part the seas, it's no joke, no exageration, that shit happened.


Thats something that will have to be taken as faith. There is no way to prove nor disprove it.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> You need to brush up on your bible skills. Religious scholars have for the most part agreed that the flood wasnt worldwide. Thats now an accepted fact.


What constitutes a bible skill?


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> What constitutes a bible skill?


Let me rephrase... "bible knowledge".


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## tip top toker (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Thats something that will have to be taken as faith. There is no way to prove nor disprove it.


Like everything to do with the religion. Yet a few pages ago you were quite adement that you had absolute proof in the form of miracles that god exists. lol. I cou;d'nt care if you are a christian, people are free to believe anything they want, my girlfriend beleives she is a wolf, big deal. But god damn do you go about making a laughing stock of yourself when it comes to talking religion  My mother is a vicar, she would be ASHAMED to meet someone like you, she is what one would call a REAL christian as far as "real" christians go.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

tip top toker said:


> Like everything to do with the religion. Yet a few pages ago you were quite adement that you had absolute proof in the form of miracles that god exists. lol. I cou;d'nt care if you are a christian, people are free to believe anything they want, my girlfriend beleives she is a wolf, big deal. But god damn do you go about making a laughing stock of yourself when it comes to talking religion  My mother is a vicar, she would be ASHAMED to meet someone like you, she is what one would call a REAL christian as far as "real" christians go.


Miracles are proof of gods existence, to me. And im not christian so...


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## Scrotie Mcboogerballs (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Miracles are proof of gods existence, to me.


miracles are for the lazy.


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> You need to brush up on your bible skills. Religious scholars have for the most part agreed that the flood wasnt worldwide. Thats now an accepted fact.


Then it really didn't need to house all of those animals, god could have just sent them to the dry areas. I guess it didn't cover mountain peaks either so the bible was wrong.


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## tip top toker (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Miracles are proof of gods existence, to me. And im not christian so...


Then she would be ashamed that you claim to be some kind of religous fellow then  you're simply obnoxious, a complete hypocrite among other things  No point trying to debate anything with you though, this thread itself has copious amounts of proof that you have fuck all idea about how to form an argument. Trying to claim that you have proof of god and as such that your belief is rational. you bloody muppet  

Remember, a lot of folk on this forum actually respect people with religious views whether they agree with said views or not, i don't see anyone respecting you because you just take on a holier than thou complex, everyone is wrong, you are right, you got stroppy because you thought someone was being offensive, then you called people idiots for causing someone to revert to athesim. You sir are a joke. Religion is rational, you have proof, LOL

What you mean to say is your perception of miracles reaffirms your belief, it is proof of absolute fuck all, anyone with half a brain cell knows that. You have proof of NOTHING, just you perception of what you may have experienced.



> If I saw your dragon create a miracle or heal a disease that would be more than enuf proof for me.


This quote of yours is proof enough that you've bugger all idea what you're trying to debate about. Or are you trying to claim that you have SEEN god performing the miracles you have witnessed?


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## cannabineer (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Miracles are proof of gods existence, to me. And im not christian so...


A non-Christian posting uncritically from Pentecostal hatesites and who has a pastor. Hmmmmm. cn


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## UncleBuck (Jun 27, 2012)

epic trolling by kaendar.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Then it really didn't need to house all of those animals, god could have just sent them to the dry areas. I guess it didn't cover mountain peaks either so the bible was wrong.


It did cover mountain peaks in Turkey.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> A non-Christian posting uncritically from Pentecostal hatesites and who has a pastor. Hmmmmm. cn


Im not Christian. Organized religion is the fault of man, not god. Jesus laid down a foundation of love, respect, forgiveness, and equality. It was man who tainted that and used it for their own benefit.


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## cannabineer (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> It did cover mountain peaks in Turkey.


Oh dear me. cn


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## cannabineer (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Im not Christian. Organized religion is the fault of man, not god. Jesus laid down a foundation of love, respect, forgiveness, and equality. It was man who tainted that and used it for their own benefit.



And yet you uncritically embrace and post some of the most hateful, divisive garbage to come out of the most virulent Evangelical denominations. You are a plague carrier. cn


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> It did cover mountain peaks in Turkey.


So the bible was wrong. It is not infallible.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> And yet you uncritically embrace and post some of the most hateful, divisive garbage to come out of the most virulent Evangelical denominations. You are a plague carrier. cn


Like what? I believe that every human being is created equal and gets an equal chance. I believe that anybody deserves the opportunity to repent and recieve forgiveness, from a common thief to a murderer. I believe in rehabilitation, not punishment.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> So the bible was wrong. It is not infallible.


Now your going in circles.


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## cannabineer (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Like what? I believe that every human being is created equal and gets an equal chance. I believe that anybody deserves the opportunity to repent and [receive] forgiveness, from a common thief to a murderer. I believe in rehabilitation, not punishment.


That's still steaming from where the bull dropped it. Sadly, some will actually take your word for it. cn


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> That's still steaming from where the bull dropped it. Sadly, some will actually take your word for it. cn


??? Who are you to judge what I believe? Are you insinuating that im lying or something?


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Now your going in circles.


Is the bible infallible or not? Was it a regional flood or global deluge? 



> Let me urge you to read carefully Genesis 6-9&#8212;chapters dealing with the Flood. If God was really trying to describe a _local_ flood, He surely could have written a little more clearly, for over and over again the wording demands a _global_ flood. In fact, I have counted more than 100 times when the wording implies a global flood. It is true that some of the individual words could be understood in a local sense, but in the context, no other position than that of a global flood is defensible. Consider these few quotes of the many: &#8216;the face of the earth (i.e. planet)&#8217; (6:1); &#8216;end of all flesh. . . the earth is filled with violence . . . I will destroy them with the earth&#8217; (6:13); &#8216;destroy all flesh wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven, and everything that is in the earth shall die&#8217; (6:17). If God had intended to describe a global world-destroying flood, He couldn&#8217;t have said it any more clearly.
> Furthermore, God promised never to send another flood like Noah&#8217;s Flood (9:11,15), but there have been many local floods, even regional floods, since Noah&#8217;s time. If Noah&#8217;s Flood was only local, then God lied to us. Likewise, there was no need for Noah to build an ark for his survival. He had up to 120 years&#8217; warning (6:3), long enough to walk anywhere on the earth, certainly out of the region of the coming local flood.


Quoted from Answers In Genesis. 

Moar


> If the Flood was local, why did Noah have to build an Ark? He could have walked to the other side of the mountains and missed it.
> 
> If the Flood was local, why did God send the animals to the Ark so they would escape death? There would have been other animals to reproduce that kind if these particular ones had died.
> 
> ...


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## Doer (Jun 27, 2012)

I imagine the waves from a couple of comet strikes, (two nice craters on the sea floor off Australia) could slosh a boat of any size up onto those mountains. Lucky to have lived. 

We saw a train of comets hit Jupiter. Jupiter breaks comets into trains which emerge together, in a somewhat random orbit vector. If they don't hit Jupiter on the re-bound, they can hit something else. The luck of the draw says, comets could rain down and cause global rain. This is even before the earth spins under a big one at the same spot some days later.

To me it's not if this or that in the bible is true about this. There are close to a ccouple of hundred culture myths doumented about this event. This event does not make the Bible true as whole cloth, however. But, like the Garden of Eden tale, the Flood story could have some vague historical significance.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Is the bible infallible or not? Was it a regional flood or global deluge?
> 
> 
> Quoted from Answers In Genesis.
> ...


Let me answer some of those questions.
1. The flood wasnt local, it was regional. Its like the entire US being flooded but not all of North America. Beyond walking distance. 
2. Im sure the animals were local varieties.
3. Birds were used for food and communication. Note the dove that brought back the olive branch.
4. There were alot less people in the world, they hadnt migrated to other places yet.


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## tip top toker (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Let me answer some of those questions.
> 1. The flood wasnt local, it was regional. Its like the entire US being flooded but not all of North America. Beyond walking distance.


Oh right, so kind of like the floods we encounter on this planet all of the time then?

I guess God was really really angry with the Japanese. That'll teach them for their worship of Hello Kitty. Them and their false idols, i guess god showed them..


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## cannabineer (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> ??? Who are you to judge what I believe? Are you insinuating that im lying or something?


I am stating outright that your online persona is that of a pathological liar and a dishonest, hypocritical interlocutor. I, unlike you, have the courage to say so plainly and stand fast. cn


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Let me answer some of those questions.
> 1. The flood wasnt local, it was regional. Its like the entire US being flooded but not all of North America. Beyond walking distance.
> 2. Im sure the animals were local varieties.
> 3. Birds were used for food and communication. Note the dove that brought back the olive branch.
> 4. There were alot less people in the world, they hadnt migrated to other places yet.


Yet you have no scriptual support for any of this, meaning you interpret the bible in a way that is consistent with knowledge you already believe to be true. There is nothing wrong with this, you just need to acknowledge that this is what you are doing and therefore it is not wrong when someone points out that you are essentially admitting the bible is not inerrant or infallible.


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## Doer (Jun 27, 2012)

I know some that take their own silly interpretations to extend to a complete lack of oceans worldwide. Farming in the mid-Atlantic sunbelt, etc. Does the bible mention oceans?
All of this was only 8000 years ago. Myths are when grains of truth survive the human twisted mind.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

tip top toker said:


> Oh right, so kind of like the floods we encounter on this planet all of the time then?
> 
> I guess God was really really angry with the Japanese. That'll teach them for their worship of Hello Kitty. Them and their false idols, i guess god showed them..


No.. I dont really think there have been floods big enough to cover entire countries at that depth since then.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Doer said:


> I know some that take their own silly interpretations to extend to a complete lack of oceans worldwide. Farming in the mid-Atlantic sunbelt, etc. Does the bible mention oceans?
> All of this was only 8000 years ago. Myths are when grains of truth survive the human twisted mind.


The book of genesis does mention oceans.


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## Doer (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> The book of genesis does mention oceans.


That's what I thought, thanks. So, a Flood happened. And it was a doooszy. One family, at least, had their shit together, or did they just build their house as a nicely water tight raft? Did they do that on purpose? Or being that the dead tell no tales, did they just thank God, as many of us will? Pretty easy to feel something special about something like that, right?

The stuff of legend. The Myth that can't help but survive. How it got in the bible however is from much earlier stories handed down from before the Kingdom of Jedea.


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## tip top toker (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> No.. I dont really think there have been floods big enough to cover entire countries at that depth since then.


Dnd there have not been comet or asteroid strikes big enough to wipe out most of liveig life, or create such large craters as we have either, i guess those must have been gods hand as well  How else could they simply be one off occurrences.. 

I've still yet to read anything from you that resembles even the foggiest form of proof despite your insistence that all these things are unquestionable items of such proof. But then again you've put yourself in such a corner that i'd be hard pressed to take anything you state as worth reading. You are a complete hypocrite. I'm still utterly entertained by the notion that "miracles" are your proof that god exists and that there is nothing irrational about belief. You are a funny man to say the least  I met small children at christian camp with a better ability to try and debate religion than you do, and these were people trying to argue that the bible must be true because they carbon dated a copy


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

tip top toker said:


> Dnd there have not been comet or asteroid strikes big enough to wipe out most of liveig life, or create such large craters as we have either, i guess those must have been gods hand as well  How else could they simply be one off occurrences..
> 
> I've still yet to read anything from you that resembles even the foggiest form of proof despite your insistence that all these things are unquestionable items of such proof. But then again you've put yourself in such a corner that i'd be hard pressed to take anything you state as worth reading. You are a complete hypocrite. I'm still utterly entertained by the notion that "miracles" are your proof that god exists and that there is nothing irrational about belief. You are a funny man to say the least  I met small children at christian camp with a better ability to try and debate religion than you do, and these were people trying to argue that the bible must be true because they carbon dated a copy


Once you can articulate better I will try to accommodate your requests.


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## tip top toker (Jun 27, 2012)

And once you try growing up i will try and treat you in a manner other than an imbecile  It's rather amusing to see you try and do anything to run away from the points made. From readin this thread, this is not the first time you've tried to skirt the issues  Quite pathetic really. 

As i say, i have met 13 year olds more proficinet at carrying out a religeous debate than you are  And they were busy trying to claim the bible must be factual because they carbon dated the paper in one of the copies  My point being that that was a better argument than what you are capable of supplying.


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## Doer (Jun 27, 2012)

tip top toker said:


> Dnd there have not been comet or asteroid strikes big enough to wipe out most of liveig life, or create such large craters as we have either, i guess those must have been gods hand as well  How else could they simply be one off occurrences..
> 
> I've still yet to read anything from you that resembles even the foggiest form of proof despite your insistence that all these things are unquestionable items of such proof. But then again you've put yourself in such a corner that i'd be hard pressed to take anything you state as worth reading. You are a complete hypocrite. I'm still utterly entertained by the notion that "miracles" are your proof that god exists and that there is nothing irrational about belief. You are a funny man to say the least  I met small children at christian camp with a better ability to try and debate religion than you do, and these were people trying to argue that the bible must be true because they carbon dated a copy


Sarcasm is not that appealing, but you are welcome to it. There are not any social records of ocean comet strikes except perhaps of this one in the dim beginning of recorded history. Are there? I don't think so.

People that litterally interpert these myths in their bible is one thing,and they are welcome, as far as i can see, to have their beliefs challenged. But the people that think they know what folks are supposed to believe and laugh at them about their own mis-conceptions, strikes me as using an improper social form that says more about the respondent than the victim.


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## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Doer said:


> Sarcasm is not that appealing, but you are welcome to it. There are not any social records of ocean comet strikes except this one in the dim beginning of recorded history. Are there?
> I don't think so.


I believe that one might have wiped out the dinosaurs.


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## tip top toker (Jun 27, 2012)

Doer said:


> Sarcasm is not that appealing, but you are welcome to it. There are not any social records of ocean comet strikes except this one in the dim beginning of recorded history. Are there?
> I don't think so.


This is nothing to do with ocean comet strikes. My point is that It seems that some people think that if there was this massive flood, and nothing of it's scale since, then it can only have been an act of god, so let us look at some of the craters around from commet strikes, there have been none of that magnitude since either, so as such it is perfectly arguable that these commet strikes were accts fo god as well, else we'd be seeing more of the same force.

In short, shit happens, stop trying to attribute it to god based on nothing more than it being a bit more than is normally experienced.


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## Doer (Jun 27, 2012)

That is so absolutely true that you cannot rule out the hand of God, even logically, right? So, a bigger question is why care about being right?
And why care if you are being baited, when you recognize that? Why care to have an emotional reactiion about it when we disagree among strangers?


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## BustinScales510 (Jun 27, 2012)

I never really had much faith. My parents weren't very religious..but they sent me to a private Lutheran school because they said it would be a better education than public school. I had some teachers that were creepy zealots, I used to hear things like.."you cant believe in evolution because the fossils that are being used as evidence were planted there by satan to test your faith", and "if you meet a jewish child, be polite to them but dont become friends with them because they will try to convert you". By my early teens I had the feeling that organized religion wasn't for me. By adulthood I felt pretty convinced that the real purpose of religion was to keep people in line in a time before there was an advanced and enforceable legal system.


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## BA142 (Jun 27, 2012)

When I was 10 or 11 some paper I was filling out for school asked me about my Religion. My Dad immediately said "Write in Agnostic"

I said, "What's that mean?"

My Mom replied "Something bad, write down Catholic."


After that day I looked up what Agnostic meant and I found out that there were 2500+ man made Gods. Then I read the Bible.

After that string of events I became an Atheist. 


I don't get how anybody with a functioning brain can believe in that stuff. Indoctrination must be powerful...just gotta get them at a young age.


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## Zaehet Strife (Jun 27, 2012)

I think this writing would find its place well here too;
Over a long time, with a lot of study, and inner reflection, i have found out one very peculiar predicament. Why is it, that us humans... think that we can actually know what "god" wants, needs, desires, admires or disgusts? How the fuck do you know? Who the fuck are you to tell me what the fuck god wants, needs, desires, admires or disgusts? How can you EVER know? How?

You tell me you know... you are full of shit, nothing more, nothing less. You are merely telling me what *YOU* want, need, desire, admire or disgust. It's all a pile of bull shit.

Everyone trying to tell me what god is, who god is, its all fucking futile, idiotic, stupid, senseless and absurd. 

Anyone who claims knowledge about god is crazy.... this includes *YOU* and me. ​


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## cannabineer (Jun 27, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> I think this writing would find its place well here too;Over a long time, with a lot of study, and inner reflection, i have found out one very peculiar predicament. Why is it, that us humans... think that we can actually know what "god" wants, needs, desires, admires or disgusts? How the fuck do you know? Who the fuck are you to tell me what the fuck god wants, needs, desires, admires or disgusts? How can you EVER know? How?
> 
> You tell me you know... you are full of shit, nothing more, nothing less. You are merely telling me what *YOU* want, need, desire, admire or disgust. It's all a pile of bull shit.
> 
> ...


If that's a quote can i ask where from? cn


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## Zaehet Strife (Jun 27, 2012)

^Just me bro, being pretty drunk at the moment. Hehehe, ima get laid tonight too! HEHEHEHEHE!!! (sexuality forum)


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## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

[video=youtube;Bqh53RCkURQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqh53RCkURQ[/video]


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## Doer (Jun 28, 2012)

I don't know how someone has the Standing, moral, scientific or otherwise, to use human logic to turn folks from God. Such Hubris exists on all sides, and in that way I say organized efforts to dispute are the same as organizied effort to support. 

If one side doesn't know for sure, then neither does the other.


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## Justin00 (Jun 28, 2012)

"why" is the word we use to embody, what is possibly, the most unique characteristic of human beings. Quiet conspicuously it is also what drives us to our most astounding achievements and leads to our greatest grief.

The interesting thing is how we ridicule each other over our search/methods for the understanding of why.


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## Zaehet Strife (Jun 28, 2012)

The most peculiar thing about humans is the capacity of which they will happily lie to themselves. 

For example, 
When you tell yourself you know god exists or doesn't
When you tell yourself you know heaven/hell exists or doesn't
When you tell yourself you know what happens when you die
When you tell yourself you know that you have a soul or don't

The list goes on... and on... and on.

You don't know anyone of these things, no one does... stop lying to yourselves.


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## cannabineer (Jun 28, 2012)

Justin00 said:


> "why" is the word we use to embody, what is possibly, the most unique characteristic of human beings. Quiet conspicuously it is also what drives us to our most astounding achievements and leads to our greatest grief.
> 
> The interesting thing is how we ridicule each other over our search/methods for the understanding of why.


Emphatically agreed. The deep drive to pursue the Why drives all our great traditions of the mind. Science (and its practical sibling Engineering), Art and Literature, Philosophy "with" (theology and ITS practical sibling, religion) and "without" ('secular' philosophy) ... drugs ... whadd i miss? cn


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## Zaehet Strife (Jun 28, 2012)

Really wanted to share this.


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## cannabineer (Jun 28, 2012)

Ya wanna know what really bugs me about the above quote? It's true but not necessarily relevant, and can foster a different sort of prejudice. The definition offered works great among chemists. But to a water-jet operator, a farmer, a sailor ... water is a series of very different things, and they're all correct. There's a difference between embracing science ... and using it as a philosophical bludgeon. My opinion. cn


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 28, 2012)

I think the overall point is strong..

'don't stick your logic in crazy'



Sam does a more eloquent job at verbalizing it..


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## Heisenberg (Jun 28, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Ya wanna know what really bugs me about the above quote? It's true but not necessarily relevant, and can foster a different sort of prejudice. The definition offered works great among chemists. But to a water-jet operator, a farmer, a sailor ... water is a series of very different things, and they're all correct. There's a difference between embracing science ... and using it as a philosophical bludgeon. My opinion. cn


He is referring to Denialism. When someone denies the answers we get from science, rather than refute them, all we can do is appeal to the reasons we accept them, which is values such as accuracy, evidence and so on. A farmer may not see water as h20, but he does not deny it.

We see many statements here suggesting that favoring rational over irrational is arrogant. We see many lines of reasoning rejected simply because they contain attempts to reason. We see logical errors defended with prerogative. The sort of person he is referring to is the sort of person who feels all knowledge is opinion and we are each entitled to our own without accountability.

(I believe in the context Sam was dealing with the subject of evolution deniers, when he was debating Craig)


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## cannabineer (Jun 28, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> He is referring to Denialism. When someone denies the answers we get from science, rather than refute them, all we can do is appeal to the reasons we accept them, which is values such as accuracy, evidence and so on. A farmer may not see water as h20, but he does not deny it.
> 
> We see many statements here suggesting that favoring rational over irrational is arrogant. We see many lines of reasoning rejected simply because they contain attempts to reason. We see logical errors defended with prerogative. The sort of person he is referring to is the sort of person who feels all knowledge is opinion and we are each entitled to our own without accountability.
> 
> (I believe in the context Sam was dealing with the subject of evolution deniers, when he was debating Craig)


OK thanks. I missed the context. I tend to evaluate quotations as freestanding. cn


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## Doer (Jun 28, 2012)

The problem with the question "why?" is that it is the only question, that has no ultimate answer. In fact, I think it is perfectly approriaate to tell childern, Think of another question. (waaaaaa??) The look on their face. (Uncle Doer is weird.)

Yeah, like, What/Where/When/How? Then I help them re-phrase. I don't allow my wife to question me that way.  Why ask why? All the rest is much more intersting.


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## Zaehet Strife (Jun 29, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> ??? Who are you to judge what I believe? Are you insinuating that im lying or something?


Every time you tell yourself you know something... that you really don't know, that's called lying to yourself. Yes, it appears you lie a lot.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 29, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Every time you tell yourself you know something... that you really don't know, that's called lying to yourself. Yes, it appears you lie a lot.


I've thought about this... What is the benefit of lying to yourself in favor of immediate comfort? It reminds me of drug users (being one myself) .. In the end, I've found it either prolongs the negative effects of a natural grieving phase or prevents people from experiencing closure. 

Accepting reality for what it is is the healthiest way to exist, imo. Denying aspects of existence in favor of comfort harms not only yourself, but also society.


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## Doer (Jun 29, 2012)

But, that is basic survival. Just extend that from the top of the mountain to every day life. Don't we tell ourself things will get better? We have no sure knowlege, but we tell ourselves that for all the neccessary aspects of survival.

And since, at this point we can't follow the "why chain" to an ultmate reason, we are mostly, a lie alive. We mostly fool ourselves everyday with this set of memories, we call self. We live in expectation and regret almost totally, then we dream about it. We think others should understand us when we don't understand ourselves. Even a worm turns from pain. Is it really a wonder we lie to have some comfort?


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## Grojak (Jun 29, 2012)

Never really had religion pushed on me, but it was about 12/13 when I became unafraid to question, by freshmen year of high school I started formulating my own opinions and arguing with school mates (made a few cry). I picked up philosophy books around this time also. By 10th grade I actually had a class where we debated this topic, I was the only one to speak up as a nonbeliever and had a very strong believer in tears, than one of her friends raised her hand and way like "I fully agree with what he is saying" my first victory!!! 

I'm not out to change peoples minds, thats never been my thing, I just want people to open their minds and question, that is the problem with these religions, they make people afraid to question or have a bullshit answer for things they can't explain.... "faith" you just have to have faith.... Faith has never paid my bills or saved me from getting my heart broken by a women or.... well you get the idea...


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## Grojak (Jun 29, 2012)

I went back and skimmed over some posts here and it's just ridiculous some of the agreements.


For those who "know there is a god because you have faith" and go to church every sunday or Saturday or twice a week. (i omit reading the bible here because there are some funny ass stories in there) I get it if you're a recovering alcoholic who lost everything or an exconvict or just a really weak minded person, religion gives you something to believe it a set of rules to follow, but those rules in modern day are just called morals, the 10 commandments are just shit you shouldn't do in a civilized society, bot because you're going to go up to heaven and enjoy being dead, absurd!!!

Speaking of heaven and hell and god and all, what is the point? Your life on earth is no different if you believe or not and if you think it's all for the afterlife, you're already dead. 

I don't believe in religion, I say fuck god strike me down now  still typing strange.... I do good because it makes me feel good, I used to litter, than I moved away from Kansas didn't wanna dirty up something pretty. I stop and help broke down cars, I help old ladies cross the street or offer to help load their groceries if I see them in a parking lot with a lot of stuff, that's just being me, I don't need no stinking religion


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## ultraviolet pirate (Jun 29, 2012)

i admire people of faith, i have met some very kind sweet people that really believe...i just cant buy into it.


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## cannabineer (Jun 29, 2012)

ultraviolet pirate said:


> i admire people of faith, i have met some very kind sweet people that really believe...i just cant buy into it.


That imo is a balanced way to look at it. Non-hostile. cn


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## Kaendar (Jun 29, 2012)

ultraviolet pirate said:


> i admire people of faith, i have met some very kind sweet people that really believe...i just cant buy into it.


Majority of faithful ppl believe in peace and love for everybody, and forgiveness instead of revenge. I was taught to "love my neighbor".


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## Zaehet Strife (Jun 29, 2012)

Doer said:


> But, that is basic survival. Just extend that from the top of the mountain to every day life. Don't we tell ourself things will get better? We have no sure knowlege, but we tell ourselves that for all the neccessary aspects of survival.
> 
> And since, at this point we can't follow the "why chain" to an ultmate reason, we are mostly, a lie alive. We mostly fool ourselves everyday with this set of memories, we can self. We live in expectation and regret almost totally, then we dream about it. We think others should understand us when we don't understand ourselves. Even a worm turns from pain. Is it really a wonder we lie to have some comfort?


There comes a time... for everyone, to sit down and assess what is there and what is not there. 

It's hard, this life... this existence. So many things to think, so many ways to be...which one to choose?

Most i understand, want the easiest, the fastest way, they way with the least amount of pain to deal with.

When you lie, you loose a piece of yourself...only you know when you lie, and even if you hide from the truth, it is always there staring you in the face constantly reminding you, that you do not know. It is easy to hide from this, so easy to turn away, to push it away or to pretend. 


I've found out that there are two types of people in the world.
Those who value and want the truth...
Those who value only their own truth (which is not the truth, it is far from it)

What is fear, where does it come from? I have pondered this thought for countless hours. I have come up with an idea that makes sense once you put the pieces together. 

As i have told you all before, i understand that i don't really know anything, i merely foster ideas, nothing more.. nothing less. If anyone here wants me to go into more detail about the origins of fear, i have no problem writing down my thoughts and ideas about the subject.

I think fear comes from ignorance, fear comes from "not knowing" If not knowing is where fear comes from... it would seem natural that the scariest thing for any human to endure is uncertainty.

The people who value the truth are on a never ending journey, continuously searching. Only with courage can they get closer to the truth about how the universe works, the closer we get the more avenues of knowledge seem to materialize before us. We have gotten past the fear of not knowing, we understand that most likely we will die without ever having our most desirable questions answered... but we don't let this discourage us, it empowers us, our drive to continue this never ending search increases ten fold. 

There are people in this world who allow the fear, the not knowing take hold of they way they think... take hold of who they are. Living a life based off of fear to feel fearless. Giving themselves answers to questions that do not have answers. Within these contemporary lies based off of fear they can find a sense of importance in this existence, a sense of purpose, a sense of comfort of knowing in the absence of it. Nothing we can do or say can help the fear filled, they all must help themselves, they must make the decision to not be scared anymore, to discontinue giving themselves truths in the absence of them. 

The quote above (Doer's) reminds me of a story i made up in my mind once as i was rolling this fear/not knowing thought inside of my head years ago. 

Imagine you are on your death bed, you are going to die. You're daughter or son at the tender age of 6 come up to you and ask you, "Daddy... what is going to happen when you die?" You have a choice to make now. Depending on the decision you will make, it will either come from fear, or love. The fear based reply; "Sweety, i am going to a better place...please don't worry" 

At this reply, hopefully you have the ability to understand that what you just said... was a lie. Although this lie may help ease the pain or suffering of the one you love the most, with your last dieing breath you have lied to the most precious being in existence all for an insignificantly small amount of false comfort.

The love based reply; "Sweety, i don't know... nobody knows. But if there is anything i want to share with you before i close my eyes forever... is that its ok to not know honey, it's ok."

At this reply, you understand that what you have said is the truth. Even though you know it wont give your offspring a sense of comfort, you know that you have been honest with the one being in this existence that is the most important to you... and that i think will mean the most, not only to you but to your offspring. 

If there is one thing i would want to share with everyone based on the experiences i have been through in my life, it is this one thing. 

"Honesty is the key to happiness"

"I Base the meaning and purpose of my existence on honesty with myself". -Zs


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## Heisenberg (Jun 29, 2012)

ultraviolet pirate said:


> i admire people of faith, i have met some very kind sweet people that really believe...i just cant buy into it.



Religion allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions what only a lunatic could believe on their own. -- Sam Harris


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## rpgdude (Jun 29, 2012)

I find that most people just "believe" without really knowing any thing about their religion's foundations or tenants. I was a christen for over 25 years more if you count my childhood. I have preached many times and led many people to the faith. I studied the Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew meanings. I once read the NT 7 times in a month and the hole Bible in 6 months. I'm telling you it does not work and contradicts itself from the start. This is what I learned about faith. Faith is believing even when all evidence is contrary, Faith is believing in that witch has no real world substance to back it up only stories "It never happens to you only other people". Faith is believing in books written mostly by crooks or fanatic's who starve themselves into visions caused by chemical reactions in the brain due to malnutrition and shock, These books teach kidnapping, rape, pillaging, child rape and the murder of men, woman and children even infants. Now lets get real and look at what "God" most people claim to believe in. Judaism=God commanded, No mercy on their enemy's, kill them all, even the pets and livestock, they burned hole city's to the ground and killed every one except the female virgins those they "saved for themselves" but If a man had sex with his mother and law, he, his wife and mother and law all must die by burning. Christen=2000 years taking people's land by ANY means necessary including germ warfare. They Gave Indians smallpox and withheld the cure, Why? Gods will. Burning and drowning "witch's" was common, death proved your innocents. The catholic church was responsible for a 1000 years of racking, burning, disemboweling, etc.. They fed people to dogs for not accepting Christmas. Islam=Ethnic cleaning's, little girls have there genitals sewn shut, woman are barely considered human, they blow themselves up and murder the innocent... I don't care what people believe until it teaches them to kill me or harm the innocent. These religions teach bigotry in all its forms, sex, color, age, and sexual orientation. Bigotry breeds hate and all the rest fallows. I no longer fallow that God because he says he loves the child but stands by wile they are abused. You can't love someone and watch as they suffer in agony when you can stop it. So it's ether bull shit or God is a lire and a cruel bastard. If you are going to believe in a God find one that loves peace, teaches acceptances of others and equality. Stay away from books that have influenced thousands of years of bigotry and war. They are dangerous because they change people. At the very least know what you claim to believe in. I know its a wall of text but that's what you get from an X hardcore believer/preacher and I do love a good argument as long as people are attacking the topic and not the person.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 29, 2012)

You sure pull this honesty card out a lot Z. Many people have more than enough evidence to prove god to themselves, be it through teachings, research or experiences (no need to remind me of your stance on experiences). Also, Im sorry to say, but there are people who have a tiny bit of knowledge about god. Its pure ignorance to think that no religion or spiritualists know nothing about god. I think you are basically saying "If science doesnt know, how the fuck do you know? You guys a liars".


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## Hepheastus420 (Jun 29, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> You sure pull this honesty card out a lot Z. Many people have more than enough evidence to prove god to themselves, be it through teachings, research or experiences (no need to remind me of your stance on experiences). Also, Im sorry to say, but there are people who have a tiny bit of knowledge about god. Its pure ignorance to think that no religion or spiritualists know nothing about god. I think you are basically saying "If science doesnt know, how the fuck do you know? You guys a liars".


I think he's saying he doesn't know. Which is being honest. 

If you have your experience with a higher being or have some knowledge that strife doesn't have, that's fine. But strife isn't gonna lie and say he truly believes in god because you say YOU have proof. That's just my take on what he was saying.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 29, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I think he's saying he doesn't know. Which is being honest.
> 
> If you have your experience with a higher being or have some knowledge that strife doesn't have, that's fine. But strife isn't gonna lie and say he truly believes in god because you say YOU have proof. That's just my take on what he was saying.


You are missing the point. Strife is being honest saying that he doesnt know. But the message Im getting from him is "I dont know... But they say they know, how could they possibly know when I dont even know? They must be liars"
Im not trying to pull him away from the dark side =p


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## Heisenberg (Jun 29, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> You are missing the point. Strife is being honest saying that he doesnt know. But the message Im getting from him is "I dont know... But they say they know, how could they possibly know when I dont even know? They must be liars"
> Im not trying to pull him away from the dark side =p


Hes saying, the things they pretend to know are impossible to know, and they have failed to prove otherwise in his eyes. He is simply saying his standard for proof is more rigorous than people who claim to have these answers. As far as he can tell, they are simply lying to themselves, and unable to demonstrate otherwise. He has been very clear that he is totally willing to change his view in light of convincing information.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 29, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Hes saying, the things they pretend to know are impossible to know, and they have failed to prove otherwise in his eyes. He is simply saying his standard for proof is more rigorous than people who claim to have these answers. As far as he can tell, they are simply lying to themselves, and unable to demonstrate otherwise. He has been very clear that he is totally willing to change his view in light of convincing information.


I understand what he is saying. He says people are lying to themselves because what they consider proof, he considers to be a misunderstanding or a false meaning to an experience.


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## skunkd0c (Jun 29, 2012)

Being a subordinate worshiper is a personality trait.
The existence of god is irrelevant.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 29, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I understand what he is saying. He says people are lying to themselves because what they consider proof, he considers to be a misunderstanding or a false meaning to an experience.


All people should understand the standards of proof are universal, not subjective to each individual.


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## Pipe Dream (Jun 29, 2012)

I never believed it. I have been waiting for evidence for about 25 years.


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## Zaehet Strife (Jun 29, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Hes saying, the things they pretend to know are impossible to know, and they have failed to prove otherwise in his eyes. He is simply saying his standard for proof is more rigorous than people who claim to have these answers. As far as he can tell, they are simply lying to themselves, and unable to demonstrate otherwise. He has been very clear that he is totally willing to change his view in light of convincing information.


Damn Heis... just damn, spot on bro. 



Padawanbater2 said:


> All people should understand the standards of proof are universal, not subjective to each individual.


You are absolutely right Pad.


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## cannabineer (Jun 29, 2012)

skunkd0c said:


> Being a subordinate worshiper is a personality trait.
> The existence of god is irrelevant.


Is it a choice, or a disorder? ~grin~ cn


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## skunkd0c (Jun 29, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Is it a choice, or a disorder? ~grin~ cn


I do not know, i think some people are born to ask questions, others are born to follow orders
each to their own


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 29, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> All people should understand the standards of proof are universal, not subjective to each individual.


"I dont know, how the fuck do they know? they must be liars"


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## Heisenberg (Jun 29, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I understand what he is saying. He says people are lying to themselves because what they consider proof, he considers to be a misunderstanding or a false meaning to an experience.


Pretty much yea. Even though I can demonstrate how unreliable personal experience is, I myself am not able to say another persons experience is invalid. I am okay with personal experience being convincing to the individual. But because of said possible mistakes, and for the very same reasons, I can't count your experience as invalid, I also can not find any value in your personal experience myself, nor should you expect me to.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 29, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> "I dont know, how the fuck do they know? they must be liars"


"they don't know because they can't know, I know they can't know because knowing is impossible, they're liars"


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## skunkd0c (Jun 29, 2012)

selling your "soul" to god for eternal life in exchange for obedience seems such a heavy price to pay 
but then again, if you are submissive in nature i guess it's not so hard
someone to look after you


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 29, 2012)

I understand our experiences mean nothing to everyone else, unless they experience the same thing. Im not trying to convince anyone of god, just that those who are confident god exists baste on there teachings, research and experiences are not lying to themselves. They obviously have a different standard of proof which I know you do not agree with at all, but it convinces them. I say you are only lying to yourself if you claim god exists yet still think "What if god doesnt exist?"

Based*...lol


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 29, 2012)

The idea is to teach everyone the same standards for proof, and all the other philosophical concepts required to be able to answer lifes meaningful questions.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 29, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I understand our experiences mean nothing to everyone else, unless they experience the same thing. Im not trying to convince anyone of god, just that those who are confident god exists baste on there teachings, research and experiences are not lying to themselves. They obviously have a different standard of proof which I know you do not agree with at all, but it convinces them. I say you are only lying to yourself if you claim god exists yet still think "What if god doesnt exist?"
> 
> Based*...lol


I agree with some of what you say. I don't think they are all lying to themselves, though a good many of them are, but then again I am not agnostic in the sense that I think we can't know. I believe Z is talking about disingenuousness, which is a slightly different concept than lying. "lying to themselves' is just the expression he chooses to convey the idea. You will have to ask Z for clarification but I believe he is speaking of times when people give answers to things no one can know. I don't think he is applying the concept to any belief that mentions a god. For example, when someone says God doesn't want you to drink on Sunday. How can they be sure of something so specific? These are the same people who will in the next breath say to you that the mind of God is too complicated for us to understand. When people say things that directly conflict with each other, they are lying either to you, or to themselves, or they are mental, or children.

We can take this view with many of the answers religions give us. 72 virgins? God hates fags? God forbids condoms? How can anyone be sure of things like these? Should we allow them to list personal experience? Should we look critically at the reasons they do offer? In situations like theses, which religion is full of, we can't simply accept "cos I have faith, personal experiences, misunderstanding of logic" as an excuse.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 29, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> I agree with some of what you say. I don't think they are all lying to themselves, though a good many of them are, but then again I am not agnostic in the sense that I think we can't know. I believe Z is talking about disingenuousness, which is a slightly different concept than lying. "lying to themselves' is just the expression he chooses to convey the idea. You will have to ask Z for clarification but I believe he is speaking of times when people give answers to things no one can know. I don't think he is applying the concept to any belief that mentions a god. For example, when someone says God doesn't want you to drink on Sunday. How can they be sure of something so specific? These are the same people who will in the next breath say to you that the mind of God is too complicated for us to understand. When people say things that directly conflict with each other, they are lying either to you, or to themselves, or they are mental, or children.
> 
> We can take this view with many of the answers religions give us. 72 virgins? God hates fags? God forbids condoms? How can anyone be sure of things like these? Should we allow them to list personal experience? Should we look critically at the reasons they do offer? In situations like theses, which religion is full of, we can't simply accept "cos I have faith, personal experiences, misunderstanding of logic" as an excuse.


I get where your coming from, and I agree, those who strictly follow one religious text and claim it all to be true are lying to themselves. They dont put any thought into the teachings or compare it to other teachings that might be similar, they just accept it without question. I guess Im saying that those that put some serious thought into their beliefs and experiences and spend a good amount of time studying all walks of spirituality are not lying to themselves.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jun 29, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I get where your coming from, and I agree, those who strictly follow one religious text and claim it all to be true are lying to themselves. They dont put any thought into the teachings or compare it to other teachings that might be similar, they just accept it without question. I guess Im saying that those that put some serious thought into their beliefs and experiences and spend a good amount of time studying all walks of spirituality are not lying to themselves.


They're just under a false impression.. Well IMO at least.


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## cannabineer (Jun 29, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I get where your coming from, and I agree, those who strictly follow one religious text and claim it all to be true are lying to themselves. They dont put any thought into the teachings or compare it to other teachings that might be similar, they just accept it without question. I guess Im saying that those that put some serious thought into their beliefs and experiences and spend a good amount of time studying all walks of spirituality are not lying to themselves.


So long as they maintain the combination of humility and flexibility to allow that they might still be wrong, be it about religion or spirit or our place in the cosmos or any number of items of intense human interest outside the purview of the provable. cn


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## Doer (Jun 29, 2012)

What a minute, that's something, right? Nope, that's no thing.

Did you guys ever read any of the Carlos Constanda stuff? The tonal and the nhwal? A Yaqui's way of Knowledge.

What is and is manifest. What is and not manifest.


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## cannabineer (Jun 29, 2012)

I prefer my Yanqui way of knowledge.  Hasn't the Castañeda opus been found to be a fraud? cn


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 29, 2012)

Doer said:


> What a minute, that's something, right? Nope, that's no thing.
> 
> Did you guys ever read any of the Carlos Constanda stuff? The tonal and the nhwal? A Yaqui's way of Knowledge.
> 
> What is and is manifest. What is and not manifest.


All of that is confusing jargon, what does it mean? 

Try to simplify that down to the easiest terms possible.


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## iCanadianGrower (Jun 29, 2012)

I dont and never haved believed in God.. I can beleive in something that there is no evidence of.. And faith imo is what churches sell.. Being a beleiver would of been alot easiier years ago.. When we still thought the earth was flat.. Nd could somehow beleive that Noah was able to build an ark.. And keep the polar bears and the penguins cold with his awesome wooden refridgeration units.. And then there dinosaurs which are billions of years old, but somehow are earth is only a couple thousand years old.. As well as the evermore contreversial and revolutionary sciences of evolution.. I think its much more plausible we evolutionized from Primapes into homosapiens.. Then it is we were created in God's Easy Bake Oven, and that the earth was created in 7 days.. The bibles nothing but a book of qoutes in my opinion


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## InCognition (Jun 29, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> For every one of those I can provide 100 religious charities. This one is impossible for you to win. Give up and admit that religions do more to help ppl than anyone else.


While religion does help people, you also have to understand that religion is a source of fuel, responsible for many, very bloody, and useless wars. Wars don't help people.

Just as much as religion helps people, it harms people by exploiting it's ability to divide and conquer. Religions around the world have come to settle in many areas, not because of the moral/ethical codes they bestow on a people, but because those specific religions enacted in those areas, provided the most consolidation of power at a given time.

Another very damaging aspect of religion is the fact that they can convince a person, or group of people to hate. When a group of Christians hates a gay human being for their life style, it accomplishes nothing other than being a destructive force, on either or a physical or non-tangible level, or both. When a group of Christians condemns, and hates a married couple who practices being "swingers", they've accomplished nothing other than creating a negative energy, which is again, a destructive force in a non-physical sense, but that hatred can also manifest itself into a physical form of a destructive force.

The irony in religion is that, whatever it accomplishes, it meets or has met that accomplishment with the opposite.


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## Doer (Jun 29, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> All of that is confusing jargon, what does it mean?
> 
> Try to simplify that down to the easiest terms possible.


It's just this concept from these books about a Yaqui shaman. Along with that which "exists" to us there is otherworld of which does not "exist" as we know it. It was from a long time ago, the 70s. I've beeen thinking about quantum branes and Many Worlds in the context of socialogy, lately.
Just wondered if anyone had read about the Teachings of Don Juan.


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## Doer (Jun 29, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I prefer my Yanqui way of knowledge.  Hasn't the Castañeda opus been found to be a fraud? cn


Oh, undoubtedly. I was not aware of it however. Fraud? How so? He made the whole thing up? Would not suprise me. But, the concepts may be rehash but to me were interesting, at the time.


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## PeyoteReligion (Jun 29, 2012)

I went to church. Logic and reason drove me to doubt many things in the bible. You can literally say the church made me an atheists when the youth group leader asked me if I really needed to be there. Nice way of saying that I was making the other kids doubt too. Nice enough guy, but I couldn't beleive in virgin birth, entirely killing off of earths population except Moses's family etc.


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## Kaendar (Jun 29, 2012)

iCanadianGrower said:


> I dont and never haved believed in God.. I can beleive in something that there is no evidence of.. And faith imo is what churches sell.. Being a beleiver would of been alot easiier years ago.. When we still thought the earth was flat.. Nd could somehow beleive that Noah was able to build an ark.. And keep the polar bears and the penguins cold with his awesome wooden refridgeration units.. And then there dinosaurs which are billions of years old, but somehow are earth is only a couple thousand years old.. As well as the evermore contreversial and revolutionary sciences of evolution.. I think its much more plausible we evolutionized from Primapes into homosapiens.. Then it is we were created in God's Easy Bake Oven, and that the earth was created in 7 days.. The bibles nothing but a book of qoutes in my opinion


You must have been to some churches in the 1800s. Modern churches today accept the fact that the bible has alot of metaphors. Religion never said the earth was flat. Noah did build an ark, its not that hard to build a boat. It wasnt incredibly huge because the flood didnt encompass the entire earth, only the middle east, so he only needed to save the regional species and his family. No polar bears were on board. Also, the 7 days that god took to create the world was billion of years in our time, it was only 7 days in his time. Also, animals do evolve, but man is seperate, although the bible does say man was created from earth, which is true kinda. You should actually learn about stuff, including growing, before you go on spewing un truths and opinions about it.


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## Kaendar (Jun 29, 2012)

PeyoteReligion said:


> I went to church. Logic and reason drove me to doubt many things in the bible. You can literally say the church made me an atheists when the youth group leader asked me if I really needed to be there. Nice way of saying that I was making the other kids doubt too. Nice enough guy, but I couldn't beleive in virgin birth, entirely killing off of earths population except Moses's family etc.


The earths population was very small back then.. a large regional flood like that could have killed off alot of ppl.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 29, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> You must have been to some churches in the 1800s. Modern churches today accept the fact that the bible has alot of metaphors. Religion never said the earth was flat. Noah did build an ark, its not that hard to build a boat. It wasnt incredibly huge because the flood didnt encompass the entire earth, only the middle east, so he only needed to save the regional species and his family. No polar bears were on board. Also, the 7 days that god took to create the world was billion of years in our time, it was only 7 days in his time. Also, animals do evolve, but man is seperate, although the bible does say man was created from earth, which is true kinda. *You should actually learn about stuff, including growing, before you go on spewing un truths and opinions about it.*


Jesus... the irony, man...

There are many modern day churches that claim the Bible is the divine word of God, and many people who believe God wrote the Bible. 

The Bible says the world is a circle. Take a coin out of your pocket, is it flat? Coins are circles.

Where is the remains of Noah's arc? 

Man is an animal, no different from any of the rest, and we too evolve.


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## ChronicObsession (Jun 29, 2012)

Religion on rollitup... hmmm so many options because everybody has to invent their own shit and promote it as the one true way, worshipping this idol or that idol... whatever. Preaching on this website is about as wreckless as smoking crack with a best friend's Mum. So many different "gods" and belief systems, it would take many a turd to account for all the nutty morsels of "wisdom" contained in this veritable orgy of poop and lies. Religion's #1 goal is to bring the fallen man to god, because humanity is naturally dumb and prefers the twisted company of satan. By humanity living to god's commandment means obtaining a full afterlife. Right now we are in a mortal body, temporary for making the choice of living life with eyes closed or to be awake. LOL I love saying that, so atheists can rush and proudly spew random sentences devoid of any devotion. It's fun to hear depressed people tell the world over and over how there is no god.


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## Grojak (Jun 29, 2012)

I'm reading this thread and it's funny to me, now of course a man/woman of faith know to pull the "you laugh at what you don't understand" card I've heard it many times over, to that I say you "fear what you don't know", because even if there was a god and he is all around us know one knows god or there would be no need to debate. 

What I can offer to anyone be them man or woman Athiest or devout follower is this: Know yourself, to know yourself is to know god.

I don't believe there is a higher spirit above me, I don't need to. I'm not knocking those who need god or their religion to feel complete (though lets face it, the vast majority of believers had it put upon them at a young age, brainwashed if you will by methods Guantanamo Bay guards would envy). It takes a big man/woman to strike fear in a 4 year old impressionable mind, lets face it "if you don't do good and devote your life to god you will go to a place and burn forever" that fucks up a 4 year old mind, fuck it took me until I was 12 to be like "whacha talking bout Willis" . Ever find it odd that not that many non convict, non addicted 20 somethings "find god"? 

Be true to thine self, look for answers within, they are there if you search. In this hustle n bustle world we live in too few take the time to discover who they are, to question the unquestionable, to seek the truth. I am better for doing so, sure I might have got scholarships into college and had A's in high school had I not been busy reading philosophy, writing my ideals out and questioning everything and everyone (no I wasn't an anarchist, most just thought I was an asshole, still do). But it was through self retrospective and daring to ask the questions I wanted to know about that I formed who I was and still am (at just 15). My parents still will not talk about religion with me, they are afraid to face up to those questions.


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## Grojak (Jun 29, 2012)

ChronicObsession said:


> Religion on rollitup... hmmm so many options because everybody has to invent their own shit and promote it as the one true way, worshipping this idol or that idol... whatever. Preaching on this website is about as wreckless as smoking crack with a best friend's Mum. So many different "gods" and belief systems, it would take many a turd to account for all the nutty morsels of "wisdom" contained in this veritable orgy of poop and lies. Religion's #1 goal is to bring the fallen man to god, because humanity is naturally dumb and prefers the twisted company of satan. By humanity living to god's commandment means obtaining a full afterlife. Right now we are in a mortal body, temporary for making the choice of living life with eyes closed or to be awake. LOL I love saying that, so atheists can rush and proudly spew random sentences devoid of any devotion. It's fun to hear depressed people tell the world over and over how there is no god.


LOL even if they is a god, get busy living or get busy dying!!! If you are living today for what might be tomorrow you are dying slowly not knowing pleasure of this life for fear you will burn in hell, but fuck it you're buried (or burned) anyway when your dead, know why? Cause your dead!!! you cease to exist!!


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## Derple (Jun 29, 2012)

The turning point for me was when I started thinking logically about the whole mess called religion.

Until there's any evidence for god, I'm sticking with my mix of atheism/theism.


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## ChronicObsession (Jun 29, 2012)

I like the part about the need to accumulate the evidence for God existing. Humanity doesn't know about anything really, maybe 5 percent of everything that will some day fill all of that which is called Science. And yet, the feeble man is so proud to deny god because of lack of evidence. 0 points for non-believer, 0 points for humanity. For many, the only god is money, but richness can't buy afterlife. It's also fun to see rich people collapse from their state of autonomity. After all of the comfort and television programming and other mindless entertainment has been interrupted, people can find god easier.


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## rpgdude (Jun 29, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> You must have been to some churches in the 1800s. Modern churches today accept the fact that the bible has alot of metaphors. Religion never said the earth was flat. Noah did build an ark, its not that hard to build a boat. It wasnt incredibly huge because the flood didnt encompass the entire earth, only the middle east, so he only needed to save the regional species and his family. No polar bears were on board. Also, the 7 days that god took to create the world was billion of years in our time, it was only 7 days in his time. Also, animals do evolve, but man is seperate, although the bible does say man was created from earth, which is true kinda. You should actually learn about stuff, including growing, before you go on spewing un truths and opinions about it.



If you believe its metaphors, you call it a lie. The bible claims to be the inerrant, inspired word of the living God. It says there where 7 clean and 2 unclean animals of EVERY kind. It excludes nothing and teaches this as fact. Wonder how much food it would take to feed 7 clean and 2 unclean animals of EVERY kind 40 days and nights. That is one big ass boat. I love how you say Noah "did" build an ark like its a proven fact. It would be the first 6000 year old peace of wood sitting on top of a mountain in the wind and rain that didn't rot away and considering its massive size Im pretty sure we would have found it by now. Now this is one a bible scholar would rofl about "the 7 days that god took to create the world was billion of years in our time, it was only 7 days in his time". First off that is pure conjecture that is taught no where in the bible. Secondly the bible is clear on what a "day" means in Genesis 1 and that's 24 hours. A better translation into English would literally be. "And in seven 24 hour periods God made the heavens and the earth" Christens may argue this but the original language does not. Next you say "animals do evolve but man is separate" Well I guess that's a fact to you also not to mention convenient. My father and law told me when I was 20 years old " There are 2 kinds of people, those who base they're reality on tangible truths and those who base they're reality on emotion" Your ending statement "You should actually learn about stuff, including growing, before you go on spewing un truths and opinions about it" Proves you base your life including what you believe and how you respond on emotion, you even seek an emotional response. My wise father and law went on to say " it's useless showing emotion based people tangible evidence to try and change there minds only an emotion can change it, so life must teach them what critical thinking can not" Suffering is what he meant. Ill end with this. Jesus said that evil fruit can not come from a good tree. Now really think about that and look at the world "God" created.


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## kpmarine (Jun 29, 2012)

ChronicObsession said:


> I like the part about the need to accumulate the evidence for God existing. Humanity doesn't know about anything really, maybe 5 percent of everything that will some day fill all of that which is called Science. And yet, the feeble man is so proud to deny god because of lack of evidence. 0 points for non-believer, 0 points for humanity. For many, the only god is money, but richness can't buy afterlife. It's also fun to see rich people collapse from their state of autonomity. After all of the comfort and television programming and other mindless entertainment has been interrupted, people can find god easier.


Way to find the enjoyment in the suffering of others. Where can I sign up for your church? Your schadenfreude attracts me. I assume self-flagellation is on the table?


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## Padawanbater2 (Jun 29, 2012)

ChronicObsession said:


> I like the part about the need to accumulate the evidence for God existing. Humanity doesn't know about anything really, maybe 5 percent of everything that will some day fill all of that which is called Science. And yet, the feeble man is so proud to deny god because of lack of evidence. 0 points for non-believer, 0 points for humanity. For many, the only god is money, but richness can't buy afterlife. It's also fun to see rich people collapse from their state of autonomity. After all of the comfort and television programming and other mindless entertainment has been interrupted, people can find god easier.


You certainly make a lot of assumptions..

You assume we know a certain amount of everything that will ever be known, assume that because it's not everything, within what's currently unknown must be God when everything in history, every achievement or advancement has pushed God even further into redundancy, and assume every atheist is depressed. 

I know how the rules of reality work and understand the importance of logical reasoning. That's all I need to know to be comfortable with atheism.


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## cannabineer (Jun 29, 2012)

No polar bears. That would be harsh if (use cheezy movie Indian voice) my people didn't go with the floe. cn


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## rpgdude (Jun 30, 2012)

ChronicObsession said:


> After all of the comfort and television programming and other mindless entertainment has been interrupted, people can find god easier.


Comfort, Programming and mindless entertainment. LOL Sounds like a Sunday at church to me.


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Jun 30, 2012)

Grojak said:


> I'm reading this thread and it's funny to me, now of course a man/woman of faith know to pull the "you laugh at what you don't understand" card I've heard it many times over, to that I say you "fear what you don't know", because even if there was a god and he is all around us know one knows god or there would be no need to debate.
> 
> What I can offer to anyone be them man or woman Athiest or devout follower is this: Know yourself, to know yourself is to know god.
> 
> ...


you shouldnt be using this forum , this forum is for adults not children sorry .come back in 3 years time .
and in reply to your post , the truth is alot simpler than that its only people who dont want to admit they were wrong , or need religion for physcological reasons that make it a complex matter , everything else in our lives we distinguish what is truth within seconds , its only when it comes down to religion certain people forget all logical thinking and truth, wich helps them percieve things to suit there own agender , i think alot of people do this because its hard to admit or even see, that the things you have been told since a very young age, are not true.


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## Grojak (Jun 30, 2012)

i'm a child eh?


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Jun 30, 2012)

Grojak said:


> i'm a child eh?


yes you are 15


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## bud nugbong (Jun 30, 2012)

god was invented to keep the poor people from bieng savages. shit is being taken too far... I think if every church was turned into a garden center the world would be a much better place.


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## Zaehet Strife (Jun 30, 2012)

I would like to share something that one of my very good friends wrote to me, i found it intoxicating. 

You remind me of a younger version of myself, Zaehet. In my case, I faced what I called "the void" in my mid-teens. 

My mind was a strange place even then, which was probably not such a good thing for someone as young as I was. As I've discovered in my wanderings, things do not always proceed as they ought to or need to, and even when they seem to transpire as they "should," the ripples left in its wake whispers that what took place was meaningless and hollow. There is existence, there is the locus of who you think you think you are...and then there is something else entirely. I wasn't interested in whom I thought that I thought I was: I wanted to experience that "something else." I spent what time I could steal away from the vampires of society pondering what this ephemeral "something" was that seemed to lurk just beneath the fragile membrane of existence. Yes, existence and the perception of it seemed to be nothing more than a fragile membrane to me, a trick of the lens, and a sliver of silvery dew sliding swiftly across the dark expanse of the "something" that was vast beyond comprehension. I knew it was there, for my thoughts always led me close to it. I wanted to see it.

It was the "ultimate truth" I longed to find, for I had discovered that essentially everything I knew up to that point was a lie. There was no such thing as an &#8220;absolute.&#8221; Nothing stood upon its own. People lied as soon as they opened their mouths to speak; and I realized that I, too, lied as soon as I started to think or speak. My perception of self was a lie, for it didn&#8217;t match what others reflected&#8230;and then I wondered &#8220;Does anyone really know anyone else, when we don&#8217;t even know ourselves? Are we interacting with them, or are we simply living out a dream, complete with simulacra of people we think we know? Am I even awake, or have I been sleeping?&#8221; When I stopped believing, I reached the point when I finally saw what was there all along: a void of oblivion where there is no time, thought, or light&#8230;there was nothing at all. 

I understood that I had reached the &#8220;end&#8221; of myself, and I was seeing beyond to what no one ever wants to see: a terrifying black hole, a singularity horizon that yawned impossibly wide, drawing everything to itself with an inevitability that simply could not be denied. It was somewhat intoxicating, really, to realize that nothingness was all there really is&#8230;that everything of meaning was only a brief of glimmer in the darkness of the void. I couldn&#8217;t deny it, and so I allowed myself to get lost within for a time. 

At some point, Zaehet, anger stirred me into action. I started to experience rage at the senselessness of it all: it *had* to make sense! Something had to make sense&#8230;so what was it? I would like to tell you that &#8211; aha! &#8211; I finally discovered sense in that void, but the truth of the matter is that there really is no truth at all. If you think you know, then all you have done is think that you think you know&#8230;a veritable screaming madhouse of un-sanity staring back at you, laughing while you convince yourself that whatever it is that you fancy is the &#8220;truth.&#8221;

What&#8217;s the point, then? Why was I even at this place, thinking about things that no one else in their right mind would entertain? I find myself here, somehow emerging from the nothing to realize that absolutely nothing awaits, lurking just behind what I think and dream. Reality isn&#8217;t as real as I thought it was &#8211; just an expertly crafted lie. That was when my eyes started to open to everything that I had been missing: words that people spoke that I either never heard or misunderstood; reflections in mirrors I chose to ignore in my ignorance; chances I passed up and opportunities that had been drawn into the void. The only &#8220;truth&#8221; would be that which I created, or gleaned from the words I had missed and the chances I had allowed to be devoured by the void. I could choose to just be and accept that I was, or in my frustration, I could seek to join that black hole. 

Obviously, I chose the former. So, when I say &#8220;all that matters is now,&#8221; Zaehet, I mean just that. We live right now. What was before, and what we think lies ahead, are both subject to the warping lens of the words we never hear and possibilities that never were. It&#8217;s all a strange dream in the twilight just beyond the deeps of the void. We can enjoy it&#8230;we can despise it&#8230;we can let it go, or we can fight tooth and nail to hang on to it. Is there a point to it? I don&#8217;t really know&#8230;there&#8217;s only now.

Your friend,
John


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## Doer (Jun 30, 2012)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> yes you are 15


He just should not have said his age. He is an innocent perhaps, in the need for stealth. The rest of the post was quite well formed and made more sense than a lot of what I read here. We should suffer the little childern to come among us. We sure suffer the adults.


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## Zaehet Strife (Jun 30, 2012)

I think this is my favorite part;

"If you think you know, then all you have done is think that you think you know&#8230;a veritable screaming madhouse of un-sanity staring back at you, laughing while you convince yourself that whatever it is that you fancy is the &#8220;truth.&#8221;


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## cannabineer (Jun 30, 2012)

Your friend John can write! cn


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## Grojak (Jun 30, 2012)

It's funny I've been smoking for 20 years, how is that possible if I'm 15 lol I don't remember ever saying my age but I might have mentioned ages at which I had revolutions.


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## cannabineer (Jun 30, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> I think this is my favorite part;
> 
> "If you think you know, then all you have done is think that you think you know&#8230;a veritable screaming madhouse of un-sanity staring back at you, laughing while you convince yourself that whatever it is that you fancy is the &#8220;truth.&#8221;


Mine was immediately after: "if you think you know, then all you have done is think that you think that you know". certain ambulatory avians might do well to meditate upon that point. cn


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## cannabineer (Jun 30, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> Comfort, Programming and mindless entertainment. LOL Sounds like a Sunday at church to me.


Yah, but TV doesn't have cookies. cn


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## rpgdude (Jul 1, 2012)

bud nugbong said:


> god was invented to keep the poor people from bieng savages. shit is being taken too far... I think if every church was turned into a garden center the world would be a much better place.


God was invented so rich people could act savage in said god's name.


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Jul 1, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> God was invented so rich people could act savage in said god's name.


god was invented because humans think they are clever and should have an answewr for everything .


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## Doer (Jul 1, 2012)

god was invented to be the highest standard we can imagine in our hope for a less violent world.


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## cannabineer (Jul 1, 2012)

Doer said:


> god was invented to be the highest standard we can imagine in our hope for a less violent world.


So the "slay the Amalekites" one was a beta version? Beta master. Oh my. cn


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## Doer (Jul 1, 2012)

wait one...as i have opined before, religion atttempts to define these highest, undefineable aspirations. They don't own it.

But, this concept is not religious. Religion is a highly organized cult of power. God was invented (or discovered) long before religion.

So, baby and bathwater? Don't pluck the eye to spite the face?


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## cannabineer (Jul 1, 2012)

Baby and bathwater is a hallowed Biblical theme. Moses floats away. cn


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## Doer (Jul 1, 2012)

Has anyone seen my washbasket? Moses, Moses! Moses?


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## rpgdude (Jul 1, 2012)

Doer said:


> god was invented to be the highest standard we can imagine in our hope for a less violent world.


 What God would that be? clarify please.


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 1, 2012)

Some people aren't quite right in the head, Some people need to have a reason to be, a reason to stick through the hard times when everything around them has turned to shit, Some people like to have a reason for things that they don't understand, Some people need to fit in to a group, Some people like rigid structure in their lives, Some people listened to the voice in their head and it saved them from a tragedy and instead of thinking that they may have had good instincts or they were just lucky they attribute it to a higher power...


And also if you kill all of your enemies then of course the world will be more peaceful, Y'all are just looking at it from the wrong angle...


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 1, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> Some people aren't quite right in the head, Some people need to have a reason to be, a reason to stick through the hard times when everything around them has turned to shit, Some people like to have a reason for things that they don't understand, Some people need to fit in to a group, Some people like rigid structure in their lives, Some people listened to the voice in their head and it saved them from a tragedy and instead of thinking that they may have had good instincts or they were just lucky they attribute it to a higher power...
> 
> 
> And also if you kill all of your enemies then of course the world will be more peaceful, Y'all are just looking at it from the wrong angle...


What's the difference between religion, which might give someone comfort, and a drug like heroin, which might also give someone comfort?


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## undertheice (Jul 1, 2012)

poor pad, no wonder your rants against religion are so juvenile. one of the hardest things people ever deal with is a loss of faith. not just religious faith, but the loss of any of our illusions. some never quite recover from the experience. it's so much easier to deal with the denial of religion when you were never taken in by it in the first place. my earliest recollections regarding religion are recollections of doubt. when i was in school god was still allowed there and it never made any sense to me. perhaps before i turned five or six there may have been some glimmer of infantile belief, but they disappeared as soon as i realized that first hint of reason. 

the real world was never hidden from me and i never hid from it. the concept of omnipotence seemed a childish fantasy before i left the first grade and dr. seuss seemed more realistic than the tall tales of the family bible. it wasn't that religion was absent from my household, my grandfather was a minister who did missionary work around the world. it wasn't even that i started rebelling early against the beliefs of my parents, religion was never shoved down my throat. i simply could never accept the absurdity of it all. maybe that's why i can't seem to muster such an all consuming hatred as you continually exhibit. i find it a bit sad and backward at times, but i look at a lot of society's foibles in the same way. i sometimes feel a bit sorry for those that are trapped by it, but i've found that only a very few use it to the disadvantage of the rest of us and i certainly can't manage any ill will toward the vast majority of the faithful. my disgust and occasionally something close to hatred is reserved for those hypocrites who attack this relatively benign phenomenon with the sort of fervor that can only be described as "religious". i find it childish and inexcusable that any supposedly enlightened individual would see it as acceptable to mock and categorize huge groups of people simply because they choose to believe that a force for goodness exists somewhere out in the uncaring universe.


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 1, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> What's the difference between religion, which might give someone comfort, and a drug like heroin, which might also give someone comfort?


This is a very good question and one that I'm guessing a lot of the religious people in here and everywhere may get offended by...

I have no definitive answer for you Padawan, I've never sat down and thought about it...


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## Trolling (Jul 1, 2012)

The minute I learned about carbon dating is when I lost my religion to Jesus but I'd like to stay agnostic. I always liked faith itself because most of them teach good things, so I figure I'll continue to be kind and respectful to people and ride the rollercoaster till the ride is up.


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## cannabineer (Jul 1, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> What's the difference between religion, which might give someone comfort, and a drug like heroin, which might also give someone comfort?


I can prove that the poppy exists ... cn


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 1, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I can prove that the poppy exists ... cn


Oh snap... how did I miss that one...

You have beaten me once again Old white wise one...


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## pplayer104 (Jul 1, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> What's the difference between religion, which might give someone comfort, and a drug like heroin, which might also give someone comfort?


Its not about religion, its about your relationship with God. The difference Between God and heroin, is God does not just offer comfort but hope, strength, peace, etc... I can go on.


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 1, 2012)

pplayer104 said:


> Its not about religion, its about your relationship with God. The difference Between God and heroin, is God does not just offer comfort but hope, strength, peace, etc... I can go on.


I would like you to go on...


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 1, 2012)

undertheice said:


> poor pad, no wonder your rants against religion are so juvenile. one of the hardest things people ever deal with is a loss of faith. not just religious faith, but the loss of any of our illusions. some never quite recover from the experience. it's so much easier to deal with the denial of religion when you were never taken in by it in the first place. my earliest recollections regarding religion are recollections of doubt. when i was in school god was still allowed there and it never made any sense to me. perhaps before i turned five or six there may have been some glimmer of infantile belief, but they disappeared as soon as i realized that first hint of reason.
> 
> the real world was never hidden from me and i never hid from it. the concept of omnipotence seemed a childish fantasy before i left the first grade and dr. seuss seemed more realistic than the tall tales of the family bible. it wasn't that religion was absent from my household, my grandfather was a minister who did missionary work around the world. it wasn't even that i started rebelling early against the beliefs of my parents, religion was never shoved down my throat. i simply could never accept the absurdity of it all. maybe that's why i can't seem to muster such an all consuming hatred as you continually exhibit. i find it a bit sad and backward at times, but i look at a lot of society's foibles in the same way. i sometimes feel a bit sorry for those that are trapped by it, but i've found that only a very few use it to the disadvantage of the rest of us and i certainly can't manage any ill will toward the vast majority of the faithful. my disgust and occasionally something close to hatred is reserved for those hypocrites who attack this relatively benign phenomenon with the sort of fervor that can only be described as "religious". i find it childish and inexcusable that any supposedly enlightened individual would see it as acceptable to mock and categorize huge groups of people simply because they choose to believe that a force for goodness exists somewhere out in the uncaring universe.


I used to be a Christian, I know exactly what Christians face. Why do they deserve sympathy for not learning themselves out of it? I did, why couldn't they? They had every opportunity I had. Should I have sympathy for illiterate adults, too? Because that's the logic you use when you tell me you don't understand why this group of peoples beliefs should't be criticized. 

I have a hatred for ignorance because all the problems we have are a result of intellectual laziness at every conceivable corner. I've told you dozens of times before, religion is one of those big parts of society that's hugely responsible for it. 

Very few manipulate the masses using tools like religion, but it's the masses that allow/accept it. If they weren't collectively so stupid, it wouldn't be possible. The war on drugs, wars against national security, fiat monetary systems, public education, public health, public politics, the world over would be better off with a more educated population and organized religion is standing in the way of that goal. I'm pissed off billions of people decided being comfortable is more important than what is true, that's not accepting life or existence, it's living inside a bubble shielding yourself from reality. I wouldn't give a damn if all of that didn't prevent me from experiencing my own life the way I personally see fit, but it does, so I do. 

I see public criticism as perfectly acceptable when a person expresses a belief in a public forum. This is the idea of free speech, isn't it? Why is it my fault if you can't properly defend a belief and get offended by something I say? Maybe you shouldn't exclaim a belief as a fact if you're not ready to accept that maybe it's not a fact. 

How else do you see any kind of realistic change happening? I don't agree with violence, so harming theists is out. Words are clearly stronger than any violent act ever could be because they have no recourse, the only thing theists can hope to fall back on is faith. The argument breaks down to 'you either have faith or you don't'. Those that do are religious, those that don't, aren't.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 1, 2012)

pplayer104 said:


> Its not about religion, its about your relationship with God. The difference Between God and heroin, is God does not just offer comfort but hope, strength, peace, etc... I can go on.


Why couldn't a drug user say the same thing? Their drug offers them hope, strength, peace, comfort, familiarity, enlightenment.. etc.


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## undertheice (Jul 1, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> This is a very good question and one that I'm guessing a lot of the religious people in here and everywhere may get offended by...
> I have no definitive answer for you Padawan, I've never sat down and thought about it...


don't bother. it's one of those things that sounds quite profound until you realize just how stupid it is. one might as well ask the difference between a boulder and an elephant. the simpleton will redefine the elements of the question and break them down into the most convenient terms. a fool will look at the boulder and the elephant and say that both are big and grey and sort of roundish, so they must be the same. a similar operation is performed to prove to us all that religion is a drug designed to dull the senses. hell, it isn't even an original comparison.


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 1, 2012)

undertheice said:


> don't bother. it's one of those things that sounds quite profound until you realize just how stupid it is. one might as well ask the difference between a boulder and an elephant. the simpleton will redefine the elements of the question and break them down into the most convenient terms. a fool will look at the boulder and the elephant and say that both are big and grey and sort of roundish, so they must be the same. a similar operation is performed to prove to us all that religion is a drug designed to dull the senses. hell, it isn't even an original comparison.


I can see what you are saying so please don't be offended as I'm not taking opinions on the answer and that I'll consider it in my own time and at my own pace to come to my own conclusion...


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## cannabineer (Jul 1, 2012)

undertheice said:


> don't bother. it's one of those things that sounds quite profound until you realize just how stupid it is. one might as well ask the difference between a boulder and an elephant. the simpleton will redefine the elements of the question and break them down into the most convenient terms. a fool will look at the boulder and the elephant and say that both are big and grey and sort of roundish, so they must be the same. a similar operation is performed to prove to us all that religion is a drug designed to dull the senses. hell, it isn't even an original comparison.


For a spell there, my religion was masses of opiates. It Marx a fellow. cn


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## Heisenberg (Jul 1, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Why couldn't a drug user say the same thing? Their drug offers them hope, strength, peace, comfort, familiarity, enlightenment.. etc.


If I must contrast only these two examples. The difference is inspiration to consider things outside of yourself. Religion is an attempt to understand the world and our place in it. Religion is indication of a person at least attempting to find their principals and guidance. I'm afraid you may be conflating physical euphoria with a sense of security and righteousness. While both may bring comfort, heroine use is most often an act of misery, while religious practice is often a source of joy.


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## undertheice (Jul 1, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> I used to be a Christian, I know exactly what Christians face. Why do they deserve sympathy for not learning themselves out of it? I did, why couldn't they?


sorry, but i had to stop reading right there. this sort of self-righteous drivel sets me to giggling uncontrollably. just what was it you "learned"? you learned nothing, you traded in one set of beliefs for another. you traded a belief in the unprovable for the disbelief in the unprovable. nothing proven, nothing learned, nothing to base the decision on but disillusionment and confusion. if the reasons given in the OP really were what you based the denial of your faith on, then it is folks like you that i really feel sorry for. all that cute little story showed us was that you always were a follower and, when faced with crisis, you predictably chose the path of least resistance. so now you have your new faith to follow, with precepts clearly laid out for you and a new set of enemies to blame. that's all fine and dandy, but don't go thinking this gains you any moral high ground or superiority over your erstwhile compatriots. anyone with a bit of integrity would be more impressed if you'd gained a little humility along the way. you certainly haven't gained anything to be particularly proud of.


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## cannabineer (Jul 1, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> If I must contrast only these two examples. The difference is inspiration to consider things outside of yourself. Religion is an attempt to understand the world and our place in it. Religion is indication of a person at least attempting to find their principals and guidance. I'm afraid you may be conflating physical euphoria with a sense of security and righteousness. While both may bring comfort, heroine use is most often an act of misery, while religious practice is often a source of joy.


Exactly. Hard drugs offer an escape, a turning in, a negation. Abdication.
In its best guise, religion can be an inspiration, a call to engagement with both nature and community. cn


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## undertheice (Jul 1, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> For a spell there, my religion was masses of opiates.


i too once consumed massive quantities of opiates religiously. it definitely left marks.


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## cannabineer (Jul 1, 2012)

undertheice said:


> i too once consumed massive quantities of opiates religiously. it definitely left marks.


Awwww you neutered my pun! I played all the Engels. Kapitally. cn


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 1, 2012)

undertheice said:


> sorry, but i had to stop reading right there. this sort of self-righteous drivel sets me to giggling uncontrollably. just what was it you "learned"? you learned nothing, you traded in one set of beliefs for another. you traded a belief in the unprovable for the disbelief in the unprovable. nothing proven, nothing learned, nothing to base the decision on but disillusionment and confusion. if the reasons given in the OP really were what you based the denial of your faith on, then it is folks like you that i really feel sorry for. all that cute little story showed us was that you always were a follower and, when faced with crisis, you predictably chose the path of least resistance. so now you have your new faith to follow, with precepts clearly laid out for you and a new set of enemies to blame. that's all fine and dandy, but don't go thinking this gains you any moral high ground or superiority over your erstwhile compatriots. anyone with a bit of integrity would be more impressed if you'd gained a little humility along the way. you certainly haven't gained anything to be particularly proud of.



I learned we don't have all the answers. 

I'm confused, you're claiming atheism is the 'path of least resistance' and 'predictable', yet 90% of the worlds population is religious. Wouldn't the 'predictable' path to take be the theists?

How you can fault a child for following what his parents told him was true is a little strange, isn't it the parents fault the child was indoctrinated (having been indoctrinated themselves)? 

That new faith of science... That predictable, testable, measurable, evil dogma...


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## Doer (Jul 2, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> What God would that be? clarify please.


What god? I've never accepted there was more than one thing, we all call god, but we define it and thus reduce it to various concepts.

So, before any religion, this 'one god' thing was invented or discovered in the pre-dawn of humanity.


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 2, 2012)

I'm fairly confident that a lot of ancient peoples had multiple deities that governed many individual aspects of the world around them...


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## rpgdude (Jul 2, 2012)

undertheice said:


> you traded in one set of beliefs for another. you traded a belief in the unprovable for the disbelief in the unprovable .


Wile he definitely sounds high and mighty. I do think you can learn your way out of it. You say he has a new belief system and its unbelief. So unbelief is believing? Wow you just blew my mind! So dirt is not dirt its just not air. so I can point at the ground and say" Hey look its some "not air"!. I need some of what your smoking so I to can be enlightened. Sorry but life can teach you there is no God or at least not a good one. On the news a couple years ago a little 3yo girl was placed feet first into a pot of boiling water by a baby sitter. she died from shock "THE NEXT DAY" If God is all powerful and sees all and didn't stop that he is one crual pos. Nothing, not even her forgetting would justify letting it happen in the first place. Hate to break it to you but if you think God would save you and let a 3yo be boiled alive your the arrogant one.


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## rpgdude (Jul 2, 2012)

Doer said:


> What god? I've never accepted there was more than one thing, we all call god, but we define it and thus reduce it to various concepts.
> 
> So, before any religion, this 'one god' thing was invented or discovered in the pre-dawn of humanity.


There are many Gods and just as many concepts about any of those Gods. Mid east God=all powerful creator. Norse Gods=more like angels but can be killed...etc...etc. The belief in many Gods predates the belief in one god. To me the most intelligent belief systems recognize the balance such as Yin/Yang all others lack even that small glimmer of reality. If God exist he is at least half evil. No way out of it.


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## WyoGrow (Jul 2, 2012)

patlpp said:


> When you face inevitable death, you will pray to God. Trust me.


I have, on numerous occasions, so I prayed to me and I saved my own ass!!! Since religion is man made, the only way "God" exists is if you place faith in that idea. Since I choose to place my faith in myself I therefor become my own God.


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## WyoGrow (Jul 2, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Exactly. When people are about to die, majority of them snap back into realizing that life is too precious for a god not to exist.


Life is life man. Everything dies. We create fables to tell ourselves to help us deal with the things that scare us most. If enough people believe those fables they eventually become a religion. Death is scary shit. "Religion" began as a coping mechanism because fuckers huddled around a fire couldn't explain shooting stars and whatnot. Modern religion is such a perversion of what it started out to be it's disgusting.


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## WyoGrow (Jul 2, 2012)

Doer said:


> The problem with the question "why?" is that it is the only question, that has no ultimate answer.


I disagree to a point. The "why" has an answer. Where we fuck it up is in our arrogance as a species. We have this notion that we have to be special. Religion is a way to make the universe revolve around us. We can't accept that the answer is really damned simple. We have to make the answer complex because we can't fathom the fact that we aren't special. I mean we are to a point. But the reasons "why" we are here have absolutely nothing to do with "us" as a species. I prefer to think of our planet, solar system for that matter, as a winning mega-millions lottery ticket. We just lucked the fuck out and ended up with a just right mix of conditions and elements. Given the right set of circumstances life is inevitable.


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## Trolling (Jul 2, 2012)

If their is a god that made everything, who made god?


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## WyoGrow (Jul 2, 2012)

Meth addicted gremlins....


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## cannabineer (Jul 2, 2012)

Trolling said:


> If their is a god that made everything, who made god?


Turtles all the way down, baby. cn


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 2, 2012)

Irrelevant. But I want to take a ride on a living beast that swims in the matter of space.


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## Doer (Jul 3, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> There are many Gods and just as many concepts about any of those Gods. Mid east God=all powerful creator. Norse Gods=more like angels but can be killed...etc...etc. The belief in many Gods predates the belief in one god. To me the most intelligent belief systems recognize the balance such as Yin/Yang all others lack even that small glimmer of reality. If God exist he is at least half evil. No way out of it.


Of course, I'm not talking about the demi-gods. Every culture has those as well. The Angels in the Architecture, spinning to infinity. And even the word god is a reduction of the word GOOD. I think the problem is simple. The human mind rejects simiplicity.

It has been the pride of the west to dismiss the other religions as false god. That's just snake oil of control. Divisivness, right?

This all hit me, when I started looking for it. I remember an account of a tribe in Brazil. After years of study of this pagan set of beliefs, the researchers were shocked when someone mention the Sky God in passing. They then found it was the one thing in their culture with no attibutes. Wasn't this or that. Male or Female, not an animal. They went on to find that all the forest demi-spirits we subject to this highest power.

They asked why they never said anything, had no rituals and very had few words about it?

The answer? It doesn't care about us. It only cares about the world. That is why they have the rituals for the demi-gods. Demi-gods.

In all the Omi-this, Omni-that, there no Omni-Love or compassion, anything like a human emotion. That's why I say, we cannot understand this with the mind. There is no Love or Hate. We humans try to explain the un-explainable and then fight over it.


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## BuddySkunk (Jul 3, 2012)

I actually believed in God for awhile. I was considered "Christian," with no other denomination. I was going to church regularly for almost over a year and my youth group for nearly just as long.

My youth group, when I joined, was going over what kind of responses you should have when caught in a religious debate. I must have came at a bad time, because all of the stuff on the powerpoint that was trying to disprove the religion was way too believable. The responses our youth group leader had seemed... To be plucked from his head frantically in order to stick up for his "God."

Science is just way too apparent now-a-days for such a stupid concept. Do you guys not understand?

In places, I don't know where, I heard they weren't allowed to teach about dinosaurs in public schools because from a religious perspective.. Dinosaurs would have been God's first creation.. Oh wait.. Maybe Amino acids and single-cell organisms?


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## WyoGrow (Jul 3, 2012)

Christians fascinate me. With so many different denominations. Each claiming to be the "true way". It appeals to our basest need to feel 2 things. 1) to feel like we belong & 2) to feel superior to others.


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## WyoGrow (Jul 3, 2012)

Here are two really quick, easy and glaring points to ponder which influenced my decision to call bullshit on not just juedo-christian beliefs... but on religion altogether.

The serpent in the Genesis fable is a direct representation of the Babylonian creator god Marduk. What better way to subjugate a competing dogmatic doctrine than to absorb it and make it your primary protagonist which the god you are promoting prevails over??? 

**Marduk is just the Babylonian contemporary version of the Sumerian gods of Ea and Enil..... gotta keep that shit fresh you know. So the kids think it's hip and buy into it.

And look at Thor. The Norse god of lightning, thunder and strength and the *PROTECTOR OF MANKIND*. Wait... isn't the the schtick Jesus was trying to run a monopoly on??? The worship and reverence of Thor was in DIRECT competition with Christianity and considered a direct threat to the faith by missionaries. But the belief was so deep seated that even on pain of death missionaries could not wipe out the notion of Thor. So they invented Thorsday.... which turns into Thursday. Keep it present in the new tradition but nullify it's importance in order to pacify.

IMO, it's all bullshit. Shit invented and rehashed and reworked and upgraded. Personally I see religion as a scapegoat so people do not have to take responsibility for their own actions. You get to blame the devil for tempting you.... it aint your fault. The when you do fuck up you have a built in guilt control mechanism... you get to ask a wizard on a cloud to forgive you and all is good in the universe again.... While whomever or whatever you affect by your asshole action just gets to suck eggs because you got "right with Jesus" over the whole matter.


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## Doer (Jul 3, 2012)

And how does harsh language help, again? It's as an emotionless subject as fraking to me.


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## WyoGrow (Jul 3, 2012)

Because I am appealing to the lowest common denominator.........


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## BuddySkunk (Jul 3, 2012)

WyoGrow, I believe that last paragraph of yours up there.

People use Religion out of fear of eternal darkness without any sort of interactive after-death soul-surfing. That's usually the main thing involved with Church's.

"YOU WANNA GO TA HEAVEN DONTCHA?"

Fear is your only God.


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## WyoGrow (Jul 3, 2012)

Heaven to me is guiding my children to become better people than I am. Because they are what will remain of me after I am worm food.


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## rpgdude (Jul 3, 2012)

Doer said:


> Of course, I'm not talking about the demi-gods. Every culture has those as well. The Angels in the Architecture, spinning to infinity. And even the word god is a reduction of the word GOOD. I think the problem is simple. The human mind rejects simiplicity.
> 
> It has been the pride of the west to dismiss the other religions as false god. That's just snake oil of control. Divisivness, right?
> 
> ...


Agreed. We are on the same page I think. Its all just human concepts in the end and if there is some great force its so far beyond us we will never grasp it fully.


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## Doer (Jul 3, 2012)

That's right. The best difinition I ever heard was un-knowable. We can only try to know ourselves.


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## Trolling (Jul 3, 2012)

A local Pastor was crushed by a fallen tree today and tropical storm Debbie was the reason...


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## rpgdude (Jul 3, 2012)

WyoGrow said:


> Here are two really quick, easy and glaring points to ponder which influenced my decision to call bullshit on not just juedo-christian beliefs... but on religion altogether.
> 
> The serpent in the Genesis fable is a direct representation of the Babylonian creator god Marduk. What better way to subjugate a competing dogmatic doctrine than to absorb it and make it your primary protagonist which the god you are promoting prevails over???
> 
> ...


 I notice this to and when I began to truly study my faith I notice that many other God/men had performed the exact same miracles and even said the exact same things as Jesus. As a christen I read psalms alot. One day I found the egiption book of the dead and was blown away at just how similar it was to psalms but like most christens I just ignored it. Its God if you cant examine it and even facts are a trick of the devil if they are in any way contrary to "belief". No way to argue with that attitude. I know, I was one of them most of my life and only a big dose of reality can wake you up.


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## sandiegojack2 (Jul 3, 2012)

My grandfather was a minister in very large church in mexico city... My mom was raised by a nanney ...when I was 18 I drove 1500 mile's to meet him!! I was met at the door and told to wait.....when she returned she said I coul have a meeting the folling day after dinner...I left and never met him.......I do not go to church......jack


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## WyoGrow (Jul 3, 2012)

Another thing that always fascinated me about the difference between the Old and New Testament. The Old doesn't mention "the devil".... there are a couple indirect references theologians claim are evidence of the Devil in the old book. **That notion always cracked me up.... guys who study the bible so they can tell me what I plainly read isn't "what was really meant".** Now in the New Testament..... you can't get away from the devil. He's every damned place and sin is all by his influence and all bad thing happen because of him. Whereas in the Old, God did lots of heinous shit because we pissed him off. Everything, by admission of the bible itself, was "Gods will". Both good and evil. The New Testament was a extremely clever way to make God the nice guy and inventing a bad guy for us all to fear and hate. On top of just hammering the shit out of the notion of "hell" which isn't mentioned in over 2/3's of the OT and at that it isn't the hell that we know today. It was "sheol"... which is just a place where you cannot remember or praise God. This notion didn't scare enough people into straightening up and flying right though. Time to upgrade to place of eternal damnation, pain and torment.... yeah, that aught to do the trick.


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## WyoGrow (Jul 3, 2012)

And how about the Catholic Church abolishing the existence of Limbo?? A place where unbaptized children's souls went for eternity. Although not a fundamental concept in Roman Catholicism. It was still a real place, according to the church, for the better part of 2000 years. Right up till they decided to just do away with it. I mean can it be any more clear that this shit is made up or what. I can just hear the priest laying this logic on his flock of followers "yeah... umm, Limbo... umm, yeah... we were just kidding about that place. But the rest of this shit is 100% real"


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 3, 2012)

So why are most people religious?


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## Trolling (Jul 3, 2012)

Because a new age of science is still in progress and some refuse the truth. I'm not saying there is a god or not but the earth certainly didn't start 2,000 years ago.


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## PeyoteReligion (Jul 3, 2012)

Trolling said:


> Because a new age of science is still in progress and some refuse the truth. I'm not saying there is a god or not but the earth certainly didn't start 2,000 years ago.


Nah bro its 6000. The creationists think earth was started around 6000 years ago. Lol take em to the grand canyon, every step you take is hundreds if not thousands of years in the past.


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## PeyoteReligion (Jul 3, 2012)

But yeah it's just people that are comfortable already in their ideals, and don't like change. Sad but true.


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## Trolling (Jul 3, 2012)

Ah that's right, it was Jesus that supposedly appeared 2,000 years ago?


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## cannabineer (Jul 3, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> So why are most people religious?


Partial answer - because religion satisfies our tendency toward animism and meets a deep instinctive need to know our purpose and place. Wyogrow touched upon it ... to give allegiance to the mightiest leader, and be recognized for it, is a part of that part imo. cn


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## WyoGrow (Jul 4, 2012)

PeyoteReligion said:


> Nah bro its 6000. The creationists think earth was started around 6000 years ago. Lol take em to the grand canyon, every step you take is hundreds if not thousands of years in the past.


Doesn't do any good to show the deliberately blind empirical proof. Simple things like carbon dating they claim is a conspiracy propagated by scientist/the devil. If you bring up the geological process their answer is "God made it that way on to test out faith". Same story when you bring up dinosaurs.... the even stranger lot claims humans and dinosaurs existed together... or even better, all fossils are fakes. If God made up all these elaborate ruses to "test our faith".... that's a pretty dick move in my book. 

Another fun biblical weirdness.... When Cain killed Abel according to the bible there were only Adam, Eve, Cain & Abel on Earth. God cast him out to wander the Earth restlessly. So why exactly did God mark Cain so nobody else would take vengeance upon him and kill him. Ummmmmm.... I mean since there were now only 3 people on the whole damned planted. Pretty sure Adam and Eve knew who he was and what he did. So who exactly was the mark on Cain for?? The Stay Puft marshmallow man????


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## WyoGrow (Jul 4, 2012)

All religion bashing for fun aside. I do feel religion played an important role in human development as a social creature. There were/are many positives about religious doctrine that can be admired. But it's like anything else. 99 people can be doing something peacefully and for the right reasons. But it only takes one uber fuckup with nefarious motives to give the entire lot a bad rap. 99.9% of real religions, not the modern shock value shit, are a moral compass teaching people the difference between right and wrong through parables. I for one think that whatever you need to believe in to be a good person is right and good. But it does not mean it's fact, true or right for everybody. Like peoples feet and shoes.... all different sizes of feet and all different styles of shoes. There is no one shoe that fits all feet and no one foot that fits in all shoes.

My oldest daughter made a free choice to attend church and is a very active member. The positive changes in her behavior are undeniable. Just because I hammer on religion here doesn't mean I don't respect every bodies right to choose what they feel is best for them. And I don't think she is feeble minded for having her faith. Her faith is making her a better person. THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF RELIGION!!!! Not to perpetuate hate because people pray, think or live a different way. And so long as she respects others I will respect her right to use religion to fulfill whatever it is it fulfills for her. This is a thread asking my opinions.... so I am giving them. Unlike your run of the mill evangelical, I don't go door to door asking "are you religious?? Yeah?!?! Your a fucking feeble minded retard then.... booya". It's odd how a religion can preach respect but then when seen put into practice it seems to only work one way.... and it's not in the way that favors the person with a different viewpoint.


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## Omgwtfbbq Indicaman (Jul 4, 2012)

its not hard to tell religion is a bunch of bullshit, its just a matter of how bad/strictly a person was indoctrinated, what are the consequences for that person to excommunicate themselves from the religion, as some stay for much after adulthood to keep up appearances. i guess for me it was when i was around 12, i had a fucked up life between the ages 8-20 which made me seek a simple yet effective world view, based on rationality+reasoning, desire and patience. its worked ever since, i still can't forget how bad my way of thinking was before, talk about cognitive dissonance.


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## Omgwtfbbq Indicaman (Jul 4, 2012)

WyoGrow said:


> All religion bashing for fun aside. I do feel religion played an important role in human development as a social creature. There were/are many positives about religious doctrine that can be admired. But it's like anything else. 99 people can be doing something peacefully and for the right reasons. But it only takes one uber fuckup with nefarious motives to give the entire lot a bad rap. 99.9% of real religions, not the modern shock value shit, are a moral compass teaching people the difference between right and wrong through parables. I for one think that whatever you need to believe in to be a good person is right and good. But it does not mean it's fact, true or right for everybody. Like peoples feet and shoes.... all different sizes of feet and all different styles of shoes. There is no one shoe that fits all feet and no one foot that fits in all shoes.
> 
> My oldest daughter made a free choice to attend church and is a very active member. The positive changes in her behavior are undeniable. Just because I hammer on religion here doesn't mean I don't respect every bodies right to choose what they feel is best for them. And I don't think she is feeble minded for having her faith. Her faith is making her a better person. THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF RELIGION!!!! Not to perpetuate hate because people pray, think or live a different way. And so long as she respects others I will respect her right to use religion to fulfill whatever it is it fulfills for her. This is a thread asking my opinions.... so I am giving them. Unlike your run of the mill evangelical, I don't go door to door asking "are you religious?? Yeah?!?! Your a fucking feeble minded retard then.... booya". It's odd how a religion can preach respect but then when seen put into practice it seems to only work one way.... and it's not in the way that favors the person with a different viewpoint.


 religion has to be a byproduct of human nature, not the other way around. its an old antiquated way to pass information/morals/laws down from parent to child...
also, i would never let my child attend church for any purpose other than good comedy and theater. if my kid ever said they believed what was in the bible/torah/koran was true, i'd take them to the museum and show them the difference between what is reality and what is imaginary. religion is just like a bad operating system, it fucks everything up. i thought(not to sound too contarian) religion was for people who couldn't handle the real world, like psychopaths and sociopaths... because they need someone to answer to, they don't see anyone else as a superior being, only these kinds of people would need a fictitious imaginary friend with a better sence of morals and who could judge them.... but like everything humans do, they can find ways to take a book and find any interpretation and use it to their advantage. as most sociopaths are coniving and sinister in nature, if you met one you would know... i feel like almost all mega-church pastors, most high end rollin' in da cash churches have figureheads who are outright sociopaths or deceitful liars, if you disagree... you haven't been to church in the south or the west.


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## WyoGrow (Jul 4, 2012)

But I am not raising my kids to think like me. I am raising them to think for themselves. If church helps her be a better person then good for her. The last thing I want to be as an example for my children is the polar opposite of the religious zealot fucks I despise. There is a happy middle ground where we get to all have our particular beliefs and all still get along.


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## WyoGrow (Jul 4, 2012)

*"religion has to be a byproduct of human nature, not the other way around."

*I flatly said "I do feel religion played an important role in human development....". Nowhere did I state religion was the cause or reason for it. But religion did play a major role in human development in regards to us as social creatures. That is a proven fact.


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## haight (Jul 4, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> and god will be like "LOL bitch please"


If your son didn't visit you for several years and then asked to come visit, would you laugh at him?


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## haight (Jul 4, 2012)

WyoGrow said:


> *"religion has to be a byproduct of human nature, not the other way around."
> 
> *I flatly said "I do feel religion played an important role in human development....". Nowhere did I state religion was the cause or reason for it. But religion did play a major role in human development in regards to us as social creatures. That is a proven fact.


All religions are basically a system for living. If you don't ahere to that system then that God will beat the crap out of you.


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## neosapien (Jul 4, 2012)

_Circa 1996. Sitting in Sunday School._ He parted the sea? How stupid do you think I am? Oh ok fine, I'll leave.


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## Doer (Jul 4, 2012)

Trolling said:


> Because a new age of science is still in progress and some refuse the truth. I'm not saying there is a god or not but the earth certainly didn't start 2,000 years ago.


Just get your facts straight. The bible was written 8000 years ago and was found by Moses floating next to his basket on the Great Flood.

I know because it was written in pure white flour on the bottom of the Egg MacMuffin I had for breakfast.

(oh dear, did I just blaspheme?)


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## cannabineer (Jul 4, 2012)

Doer said:


> Just get your facts straight. The bible was written 8000 years ago and was found by Moses floating next to his basket on the Great Flood.
> 
> I know because it was written in pure white flour on the bottom of the Egg MacMuffin I had for breakfast.
> 
> (oh dear, did I just blaspheme?)


Ronald will forgive. Go forth in peace and joy, and pay at the second window. cn


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## dashcues (Jul 4, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Ronald will forgive. Go forth in peace and joy, and pay at the second window. cn


All Hail The Mighty Arches!
You and Doer gave me the thought of the Hamburglar as Judas.lol
Peace and $1.99 be unto you in the name of the Great Mcdonald.Bringer of my children's chicken mcnuggets.
For it is said,they shall eat as many as there are stars in the sky.


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## cannabineer (Jul 4, 2012)

The seam in that theology is that the place of hot deep fat must surely be Hell, and yet it is the fount of all golden blessings. Hmmmm ... is Ronald hiding a pointy tail and pitchfork, you reckon?  cn


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## rpgdude (Jul 5, 2012)

WyoGrow said:


> *"* That is a proven fact.


 Yes it is. Every person alive today are decedents of someone who was burned, racked, raped etc.. Entire nations where slaughtered, generations taught bigotry, slavery justified and most if not all wars had religion to blame. Jesus could have been speaking for every religion on earth when he said "Luke 12:51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division." Its a bringer of all things evil yet the "righteous" fallow it like blind sheep.


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## Doer (Jul 5, 2012)

There is probaly not a more badly understood man, in all of history. This is the thing that makes me pretty sure, that Youshoulda was a real guy. It is really impossible to make this stuff up. To get it so wrong, so confused, so power blinded, is so human, through and though. 

When I look at his message, the words that were said to be uttered by him, I see one thing. But the rest of it is another thing. It is amazing that some of the message still exists. If it was made up, the message would be more consistent. That is according to CSI-Criminal Investigations. 

As an investigator, you believe the parts that don't fit the nice, consistant lies. 

When I look at the little fibs, "for god so loved the world....blah, blah." etc., you see the gush of devotion or you see the cunning positioning. Even from Mark onwards it morphs. Mark gives a pretty bald account. Luke comes in, to at least, head off John, who is already spreading wild stuff about the early days.

So, Jesus said one set of things that perhaps the Essencians took to heart. And, taken for power were those things that were said about him. What Peter was trying to do, etc.

Maybe.


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## rpgdude (Jul 5, 2012)

Did Jesus exist? No one knowes but I can tell you that you can find right here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities deities who's stories and words mirror and yet predate Jesus. They are just as evolving as the gospels and many are much more in depth. One thing is for certain, its mostly hogwash people don't walk on water or command storms and they dam sure don't come back from a crucifixion and 3 days of rot.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 5, 2012)

What is the strongest evidence to support the theory that Jesus existed as a man sometime around 33BC-0? 

I personally have never seen any evidence. 

Furthermore, if a man named Jesus did exist during that time, how would there be any way to authenticate the mans actions over 2,000 years ago as being consistent with the biblical version of Jesus?


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## Doer (Jul 5, 2012)

I know of no secular evidence, whatsoever, period. It is a re-telling and re-folding of tales. And as likely as Shakespere, was a commitee, there could have been a posse of Babtists that just grabbed and got him crucified to get someone else off. Baarrabas? More bs, I'm sure. But, this foundation story is about something. It's because of something. Is it a guy that found out how do some palor tricks and events were just used for power.

There is no actual history, but there is this mystery? Where did it come from? I suppose iit could just be the John the Babtist cult rolling the stories as they went.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 5, 2012)

That's not enough evidence, the best you can say is the guy _may have_ existed.


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## Doer (Jul 5, 2012)

I don't even have enough to say, may have existed. The evidence of absence, even, has been tampered with. So, I can't say, probably didn't exist, either.
It's the stuff of myth. Something>Something?Something. Even if it was just rolled up, whole cloth, from the tinest kernal of nothing. It's still something.

We discuss it. I have my views, in a large scale. There is endless detail. If there was no man, there is still this odd duality of message, as I mentioned.

It is enough for most to get this message. For me, the message is vey strangly different in what is attributed as "quotes" and what I can clearly see as praise or worse. You'd think after all this re-write and revision, and leveling of the stories, this would be reconcilled. To me the strory is about how sadly screwed up these Apposles were. But, the under message, which without parable, maybe 23, there are only a few "quotes." I'd have to check that one in Luke.

So, I can't say the man existed, but this odd, (and at odds with the current Religion); a strange message in the "quotes." survives. Or, it was created somehow alongside. So, my only point, if any, is that there are two things, in this subject. One is a principle in Latin called christus, or in Greek called christos. 

Then there is the Church which is all the rest, Old Testement, the Jew killing of Diety, Constantine, etc.

There has been a giant effort to create the Man. It has served our survival, and there is a tiny bit less suffering. Is that the miracle?


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 5, 2012)

Where's mindphuk with the history of Jesus when you need him...


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## Doer (Jul 6, 2012)

Yep, he has looked into it. I think he agrees though, There is no History. It's mythic. It's refered to by the unbiased, as the Histocracy or the Historicity of Jesus. There is aboslutely nothing.

I looked again last night and even the very earliest mentions are practically assured to be part of the re-write. Or Write, as it were.

The writing of Pliny, Josepheus, and the Acts of Pilate all seem to be tampered with, and they are the earliest of the non-biased accounts. They likey were not accounts of anything until edited later.


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## mindphuk (Jul 6, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Where's mindphuk with the history of Jesus when you need him...


just c&p my reply to Kaendar from the other thread.


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## RebelMan (Jul 8, 2012)

Can logic explain the thousands of converts and visionaries that find themselves closer to God for no particular reason and give up everything in their lives to follow him? I went on a pilgrimage to Medjugorje in Bosnia-Hertz...(curses to the spelling of that county's name ). It is a town where young children have been seeing and currently are seeing the Blessed Virgin Mary on a _'regular basis_' since 1981 and she is bringing many messages into the world, sent by God, through his grace. I visited this place for almost a week, and it was the best thing that has ever happened to me. Many miracles happen to you while you stay there, many younger people like me in our group had family members who had, IE: cured cancer after they returned from Medjugorje, which were explained only by the Miracles of Medjugorje. Our priest leader was an amazing man who left millions of dollars, mansions, yachts, wealth, Cocaine/Drug addictions, and his secular lifestyle after he had a vision of Jesus and Jesus told him he should become a priest. This is as big as the visions in Fatima and in Guadeloupe.

Here is the summary of Medjugorje

Link, if you need it:

http://www.medjugorje.org/overview.htm



> Since 1981, in a small village in Bosnia-Hercegovina named Medjugorje, the Blessed Virgin Mary has been appearing and giving messages to the world. She tells us that God has sent Her to our world, and these years she is spending with us are a time of Grace granted by God. In Her own words She tells us, "I have come to tell the world that God exists. He is the fullness of life, and to enjoy this fullness and peace, you must return to God".
> 
> Our Lady's mission is one of peace and love. She has come to earth to reeducate us and to help us convert and recenter our lives back to God. Our Lady's role has always been one of guiding people to Her Son, Jesus. What an amazing opportunity we have before us! Our Lady's call to conversion is urgent, and we should respond with all our hearts.
> 
> ...


I hope you can find this as life changing as i did, unfortunately you most likely hadn't been able to visit there, but I hope you can realize what is happening in the world and how we can play a part.

Contact me anytime for guidance.

God Bless.


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## Doer (Jul 8, 2012)

Ah Guidance. Of course, I knew that. You've come to the right place. We are very familar with these stories. In fact, that is what we have been talking about... stories, only.

If I may, however, I wish to point out, the basic position on which you place your logic is but the poverb's, house upon the sand.

"Can logic explain the thousands of converts and visionaries that find themselves closer to God for no particular reason and give up everything in their lives to follow him?"

You are making an assumption. Then the logic is that the assumption proves the assumption that these folks are motivate by this assumption.

It is a false logic. It is weak logic to try to prove the unproveable, right? But this church logic is faulty. You first must have us assume God and the Devil. And of course, all the rest of it is only based within the assumption of Catholics. 

The biggest problem with Abraham is that he convinced those around him that he had it all figure out. Yet, the Kingdom of Judea was over. This posion pill of smug, unique damnation if we don't believe these stories, is all the supersitious power that remains. Assumption after assumption.


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## cannabineer (Jul 8, 2012)

Now if they could cure even one case of Down's, I'd be impressed. cn


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## Trolling (Jul 8, 2012)

Their was a special on ABC last night "Is their a heaven?" and people was talking about their near death experiences. It had this one 4 year old boy who died for a few minutes and saw all the people from the bible which could be explained if he was already taught that (hallucinations when the brain is deprived from oxygen) but then he said he saw his dead baby sister that had died in his mother's stomach which nobody ever told him about. When they revived him, he asked his parent's "mommy, you had a baby die inside you, didn't you?"


Not sure what to say about that but it gave me the chills a little bit.

They also said that some people could have what they call the god gene. Good watch if it's out on the web, could be on their website.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 8, 2012)

Trolling said:


> Their was a special on ABC last night "Is their a heaven?" and people was talking about their near death experiences. It had this one 4 year old boy who died for a few minutes and saw all the people from the bible which could be explained if he was already taught that (hallucinations when the brain is deprived from oxygen) but then he said he saw his dead baby sister that had died in his mother's stomach which nobody ever told him about. When they revived him, he asked his parent's "mommy, you had a baby die inside you, didn't you?"
> 
> 
> Not sure what to say about that but it gave me the chills a little bit.
> ...


I've heard that story rehashed a few different times, some kid actually got a book published and milked it for all it was worth, made a killing (him and his parents) with the same story.

This, to me, isn't a case of divine intervention (for the long list of logical inconsistencies inherent in every organized religion), it seems more like a case of the parents lying, and after you consider the outcome, one really has to question their true motives. It's pretty obvious these parents lied, came up with this story (but most likely heard it before), then devised a plan to make money, like most con artists do in religion, by taking advantage of good peoples weakest traits. 

I also find it interesting how each of the claims made my people like this are always, coincidentally, unverifiable. You can't test to see if the kid had actually never been told anything by his parents, and who knows if they were lying about their miscarried daughter in the first place?


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## Trolling (Jul 8, 2012)

Well health records would prove the miscarriage and a lie detector could prove the boy's and parent's claims. You do have a point tho and should be looked into.


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## RebelMan (Jul 8, 2012)

Doer said:


> Ah Guidance. Of course, I knew that. You've come to the right place. We are very familar with these stories. In fact, that is what we have been talking about... stories, only.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You make no sense, people don't believe that God is an assumption, no idea where you got that... people believe God because of visions and true things that happen to them. it's not assuming something is true and that it is logical, it is knowing something is true based on fact. Some people do not get these signs, but others do, and the more pure of heart you become the happier you will enjoy this world God created for us.


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## RebelMan (Jul 8, 2012)

Trolling said:


> Well health records would prove the miscarriage and a lie detector could prove the boy's and parent's claims. You do have a point tho and should be looked into.




for 15 years they have conducted tests on all the visionaries (except maybe one denied having them) and they conducted over 120 tests one of the visionaries... the organizations who carried them out where sent by the Vatican and many Atheistic organizations. The Vatican has officially accepted it as truth and real, and the Atheistic organizations have backed off because they have found no evidence and they have a problem with their members converting after they leave Medjugorje and that is something these organizations fear. Hence why they have stopped. They have done many wired brain studying, i'm not sure of the science behind it, but they tried to find if the visionaries were hallucinating, but found no abnormal brain wave or brain functions, from what i have read and heard from people int he village and by these organizations. if you do enough research, you will find some of the experience these researchers have had and their very own conversion to Christianity that they talk about, stemming sometimes from a complete lack of religion.


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## Trolling (Jul 8, 2012)

I don't doubt them but if someone has a strong religion and dies for a brief second then they most likely will have a vision, the mind can play powerful trickery if you believe in something enough.


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## RebelMan (Jul 8, 2012)

Trolling said:


> I don't doubt them but if someone has a strong religion and dies for a brief second then they most likely will have a vision, the mind can play powerful trickery if you believe in something enough.


And for those with no religion at all? who die for seconds, if not minutes, and then come alive and dedicate their entires lives to God? not knowing where their beliefs came from but only concluding that it was in fact God who shed light on their souls? this is what happened to the priest who lead our group in Medjugorje. Father Rick Wendell, if you can find him...


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## Trolling (Jul 8, 2012)

I'll have to dig deeper and watch a few documentaries, it does sound interesting.


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## Zaehet Strife (Jul 8, 2012)

I had a vision last night... or "dream" if you may. I remember i became lucid, and instead of flying off... i stopped and screamed; "God! Where are you?! Show yourself!"

My consciousness yelled back; "Quit talking to yourself!"


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## Doer (Jul 8, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> You make no sense, people don't believe that God is an assumption, no idea where you got that... people believe God because of visions and true things that happen to them. it's not assuming something is true and that it is logical, it is knowing something is true based on fact. Some people do not get these signs, but others do, and the more pure of heart you become the happier you will enjoy this world God created for us.


So, people with visions make assumptions that the visions are actually God. Or, they make assumptions about coincidence and logic about, surely this must be God. And there is the basic assumption that there must be God, the bible stories say so.

And many folks, including me, feel something. We have some experience. But, my take would be considered heresy, to be sure.

These all become, as we say, stories. Only Stories. No universal assumptions that there is this loving anthropomorphic God.. Many assume there is nothing. Nothing but stories. And if you were rasied like me, before you could talk and before you could eat you had to pray before the sustanenace of life could be had. Just stories. And fear. Refuse to pray for supper? How? You don't have volition, much less chioce. No free will at 3 years old.

So, I'm sorry, to me it's a con. It is the basic Italian mafia protection racket. Create something to fear and then offer salvation from it. You have to believe the wise guys will bust you up. And much as been lost to this Roman plot.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 8, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> And for those with no religion at all? who die for seconds, if not minutes, and then come alive and dedicate their entires lives to God? not knowing where their beliefs came from but only concluding that it was in fact God who shed light on their souls? this is what happened to the priest who lead our group in Medjugorje. Father Rick Wendell, if you can find him...


Yeah, even non believers. 

How can you be sure when you reference 'God', it's the Christian god? Why not the Viking god, or any of the eastern gods? Norse, native American, or any of the ancient religions that aren't practiced anymore's god/s? 

Because you live in western society, and our culture conditions you to believe in the _Christian _god. 

If you lived in Pakistan or Iran, you would be referring to Allah or Mohammad. Doesn't that strike you as a little odd? Geographic location determines what religion people generally follow, why is that?


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## RebelMan (Jul 9, 2012)

Doer said:


> So, people with visions make assumptions that the visions are actually God. Or, they make assumptions about coincidence and logic about, surely this must be God. And there is the basic assumption that there must be God, the bible stories say so.
> 
> And many folks, including me, feel something. We have some experience. But, my take would be considered heresy, to be sure.
> 
> ...


So, basically, you are telling me that when a person visions the Blessed Virgin Mary, receives messages from Mary about what is occurring in the world, is given a tongue to fully understand another language(yes this occurred to one of the visionaries, she gained the knowledge to speak Italian, when she previously knew very little of the language, but learned to speak it fluently), is brought to officials, beaten, and questioned ruthlessly about her existence but still prevails, when people all throughout a village clearly see the words 'pax' in the sky(meaning peace in Latin), when being threatened to have your family's entire land and house seized away at the age of 16 by the government police and still go against them, and many more occurrences of faith, that these are all somebody just doing this because 'God would be the logical answer to why this is happening' you are making up think my friend. If God is what these people believe is the logical answer, and you are telling me they are wrong, then what would you tell me it is?

You find yourself in a position in which you must flush out God and everything about God, and you excuse your faith because that someone in your family forced you into prayer in order for you to eat. Any true Christian knows this is wrong, and the true face of Christianity, the one that the blessed Virgin Mary has come down from heaven to try and re-educate to the world, would not use fear and hunger to persuade it's believers. You are telling yourself that you are judging Christianity by a Christian, but you must learn to judge Christianity itself, and you will find no errors in Christianity. This is what many Atheists try to do, they create a false truth for themselves, but can't stand hearing the real truth, so they try eagerly to flush out the truth so they can live their false truth and they think that they have solved the important things in life when they haven't solved the most important. Mary has come to wash away the things that many people who call themselves christians, follow. You can find these things just by turning the TV on. If you think you are right, and that the Christian faith has errors, and that you can use those errors to prove that you are free from fault, then you are very wrong. I hope you can take my word with the fullest love of God that i have and i hope you can try to focus on something real that is occurring and that you can't escape, no matter how hard you try.


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## RebelMan (Jul 9, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Yeah, even non believers.
> 
> How can you be sure when you reference 'God', it's the Christian god? Why not the Viking god, or any of the eastern gods? Norse, native American, or any of the ancient religions that aren't practiced anymore's god/s?
> 
> ...



I am sure of this because this 'God's message is to return to the true face of Christianity, if i lived in Pakistan or in Vietnam it would not make a difference of the message, so what are you trying to prove? that just because there are people who are stuck on different beliefs, that all of the religions are wrong? The largest world religions can trace their existence back to something VERY similar, Christianity, the world largest religion has grown the most because it is true, and has seen the least change in what the 'True Christian Religion' of the world is. Unlike Islam, who follow false prohets, and Judaism, who deny Jesus as the savior, and the Virgin Mary being the Mother of Jesus the Savior. As we can see now in Western Civilization, the fall of Christianity due to it's swayed beliefs... just look at American culture, it is so swayed from the 'True Christian Religion' of the world that we can see the fall of it, but through Medjugorje, this 'True Christian Religion' is being brought back and strengthened from the American Christian religion that is far from the truth, and the 'True Christian Religion'

Sorry if that gets confusing, but i'm just trying to stay on topic and not go off and off about the things you, my friends bring up.


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## Sunlite (Jul 9, 2012)

After watching Zeitgeist, my views on everything changes. If you have the time, i would strongly encourage watching it


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## Zaehet Strife (Jul 9, 2012)

Would everyone here not agree, that life and human existence as a whole would become infinitely more tolerable and enjoyable if everyone would do just one simple thing...

_*Keep your denominations to yourself!*_

Have a cool idea? Great, share it, ideas are awesome... have something you believe? Keep it to yourself, the only reason anyone EVER presents or imposes a belief is because they are not really sure if it is true or not, and the only way they can justify thinking something is true without knowing it is true is to try and get others to think it is true too.

Grow some goddamn balls and keep the things you think are true without evidence to yourself (Unless you want to get made fun of from those of us who have developed critical thinking skills). 

Want to share some facts? I'm here to listen, want to share a good idea? I'm here to listen. Gather up enough courage within yourself to keep from vomiting the ideas you think are true (beliefs) all over other people. Hold that shit down. Quit being a pussy.

Have enough courage to keep faith in the ideas you think are true and there is no need to share them, not unless you are filled with fear. The fear of them NOT being true.

Like i said before, have the courage to withstand your own tests of faith without the help or support of anyone else... _

Our denominations should be a private thing_.


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## Rascality Afoot (Jul 9, 2012)

I was faithful when I was a child, but my sense of wonder and love for my fellow man kept shining through...


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 9, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> I am sure of this because this 'God's message is to return to the true face of Christianity, if i lived in Pakistan or in Vietnam it would not make a difference of the message, so what are you trying to prove? that just because there are people who are stuck on different beliefs, that all of the religions are wrong? The largest world religions can trace their existence back to something VERY similar, Christianity, the world largest religion has grown the most because it is true, and has seen the least change in what the 'True Christian Religion' of the world is. Unlike Islam, who follow false prohets, and Judaism, who deny Jesus as the savior, and the Virgin Mary being the Mother of Jesus the Savior. As we can see now in Western Civilization, the fall of Christianity due to it's swayed beliefs... just look at American culture, it is so swayed from the 'True Christian Religion' of the world that we can see the fall of it, but through Medjugorje, this 'True Christian Religion' is being brought back and strengthened from the American Christian religion that is far from the truth, and the 'True Christian Religion'
> 
> Sorry if that gets confusing, but i'm just trying to stay on topic and not go off and off about the things you, my friends bring up.


Christianity adopted many of its beliefs from much older religions. Even in Egyptian mythology theres plenty of characters that were born on the 25th of December, died on a cross, resurrected, ascended into heaven, yada yada yada. Im sure Egyptian mythology isnt the only belief that has characters that relate to Jesus, and those characters are thousands of years older than Jesus. IMO, if there was such a person, his name wasnt Jesus Christ, I wouldnt know his name, theres a bunch of characters MUCH older than christianity that fit the description of Jesus. Christianity is one of the youngest religions, trying to discredit other religions (Like Hinduism) is classic ignorance displayed by a christian... Jesus said so himself, god is in YOU, not no stinkin church, bible, or any other religion, GOD is in YOU! You dont need to be a follower of any religion to experience "god"... To say "god" has a special group of chosen people and all the rest are going to burn for eternity is fucking ridiculous, its using fear to make people believe. Christianity ruthlessly governed nations for the longest time, who ever invented Christianity had only one thing in mind, POWER! 

Im not saying the bible is total bullshit though (the majority is, though), like I said, they've adopted beliefs from existing religions. Phrases like "God is light" "know thy self and you shall know god" "God is within man" "If your eye be single, then you shall become full of light" <---the BEST teachings of the bible and the ONLY ones you should pay attention to. The "god is light" concept can be found in most religions, take Hinduism for example. Hinduism says everyone has 7 chakras, just like the 7 colors of the rainbow, 7 visible beams of LIGHT. When Jesus says "If your eye be single, then you shall become full of light", hes talking about the Third Eye Chakra, activate your third eye and you shall know god. 

There is no hell, the old testament was way more accurate about "hell", a dark, LIGHTless place where you are separated from god, occupied by bitter, sad, angry souls, no punishing going on what so ever, just a dark place where sad, angry bitches go. 

Christians are NOT the chosen people. You dont need to worship anyone or anything. There is a creator but that creator doesnt discriminate, nor does he dictate what happens in this world. If we learn, experience, and evolve enough, then we can be just like "god"... What sounds more reasonable? An eternity of kissing the ass of an angry child, dictator god? Or an eternity of learning, experiencing and evolving and being equal to "god"?? Even Jesus said that we can be better than him, look it up...


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 9, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> I am sure of this because this 'God's message is to return to the true face of Christianity, if i lived in Pakistan or in Vietnam it would not make a difference of the message, so what are you trying to prove? that just because there are people who are stuck on different beliefs, that all of the religions are wrong? The largest world religions can trace their existence back to something VERY similar, Christianity, the world largest religion has grown the most because it is true, and has seen the least change in what the 'True Christian Religion' of the world is. Unlike Islam, who follow false prohets, and Judaism, who deny Jesus as the savior, and the Virgin Mary being the Mother of Jesus the Savior. As we can see now in Western Civilization, the fall of Christianity due to it's swayed beliefs... just look at American culture, it is so swayed from the 'True Christian Religion' of the world that we can see the fall of it, but through Medjugorje, this 'True Christian Religion' is being brought back and strengthened from the American Christian religion that is far from the truth, and the 'True Christian Religion'
> 
> Sorry if that gets confusing, but i'm just trying to stay on topic and not go off and off about the things you, my friends bring up.


I believe you mean that Christianity stems from Judaism...


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## SirGreenThumb (Jul 9, 2012)

I can't really say that I'm an athiest per se. I do believe in a higher power of some sort. I do believe there is life after death, but not to the point of where people think there is one of 2 places you will end up. I don't believe in the bible and what is written within it. The bible is one big contradiction, and the new testament is a contradiction of the old testament. Anyone who tries to say otherwise is sadly mistaken. 

I have no problem with people that believe in the bible or what is written within it. I have a problem with them voicing their opinion about it when they are clearly delusional. Everything that life has taught me is that if you step in front of a lion or 2 for that matter, your gonna be eaten. Much less be able to get them fuckers to get on a boat with all the other animals they eat. How did we all get here? Who the hell knows. No one has ever lived that long to tell the tell. We has people lie, it is embedded within us to do so. Whether it is to get out of something or to tell a fictional story. 


"2000, Y2K, my first taste of conscious irrationality. They said the world would end, I sat frightened" I remember that day... I pulled a prank on everyone. As the countdown started to happen I ran off into the garage. When they got to one I pulled the power switch on the entire house..  Everyone screamed and I couldn't do nothing but laugh..


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 9, 2012)

I proved to everyone in the simplest fashion that Y2k was a joke... I sat them down in front of a computer and set the date and time forward so it was just before when the computer would tick over to the new millennium and had them watch it tick over and the computer not crash etc...

How did so many people get so stupidly paranoid that they didn't even think to do something simple as that..?


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## SirGreenThumb (Jul 9, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> I proved to everyone in the simplest fashion that Y2k was a joke... I sat them down in front of a computer and set the date and time forward so it was just before when the computer would tick over to the new millennium and had them watch it tick over and the computer not crash etc...
> 
> How did so many people get so stupidly paranoid that they didn't even think to do something simple as that..?


You should have created a shutdown virus.. That would have been epic.


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 9, 2012)

I might have thought of that if I wasn't technotarded...


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## SirGreenThumb (Jul 9, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> I might have thought of that if I wasn't technotarded...


 I resemble that remark..


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## Zaehet Strife (Jul 9, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Christianity adopted many of its beliefs from much older religions. Even in Egyptian mythology theres plenty of characters that were born on the 25th of December, died on a cross, resurrected, ascended into heaven, yada yada yada. Im sure Egyptian mythology isnt the only belief that has characters that relate to Jesus, and those characters are thousands of years older than Jesus. IMO, if there was such a person, his name wasnt Jesus Christ, I wouldnt know his name, theres a bunch of characters MUCH older than christianity that fit the description of Jesus. Christianity is one of the youngest religions, trying to discredit other religions (Like Hinduism) is classic ignorance displayed by a christian... Jesus said so himself, god is in YOU, not no stinkin church, bible, or any other religion, GOD is in YOU! You dont need to be a follower of any religion to experience "god"... To say "god" has a special group of chosen people and all the rest are going to burn for eternity is fucking ridiculous, its using fear to make people believe. Christianity ruthlessly governed nations for the longest time, who ever invented Christianity had only one thing in mind, POWER!
> 
> Im not saying the bible is total bullshit though (the majority is, though), like I said, they've adopted beliefs from existing religions. Phrases like "God is light" "know thy self and you shall know god" "God is within man" "If your eye be single, then you shall become full of light" <---the BEST teachings of the bible and the ONLY ones you should pay attention to. The "god is light" concept can be found in most religions, take Hinduism for example. Hinduism says everyone has 7 chakras, just like the 7 colors of the rainbow, 7 visible beams of LIGHT. When Jesus says "If your eye be single, then you shall become full of light", hes talking about the Third Eye Chakra, activate your third eye and you shall know god.
> 
> ...


Would everyone here not agree, that life and human existence as a whole would become infinitely more tolerable and enjoyable if everyone would do just one simple thing...

*Keep your denominations to yourself!*

Have a cool idea? Great, share it, ideas are awesome... have something you believe? Keep it to yourself, the only reason anyone EVER presents or imposes a belief is because they are not really sure if it is true or not, and the only way they can justify thinking something is true without knowing it is true is to try and get others to think it is true too.
Grow some goddamn balls and keep the things you think are true without evidence to yourself (Unless you want to get made fun of from those of us who have developed critical thinking skills). 

Want to share some facts? I'm here to listen, want to share a good idea? I'm here to listen. Gather up enough courage within yourself to keep from vomiting the ideas you think are true (beliefs) all over other people. Hold that shit down. Quit being a pussy.

Have enough courage to keep faith in the ideas you think are true and there is no need to share them, not unless you are filled with fear. The fear of them NOT being true.

Like i said before, have the courage to withstand your own tests of faith without the help or support of anyone else... _

Our denominations should be a private thing_.


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## Doer (Jul 9, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> So, basically, you are telling me that when a person visions the Blessed Virgin Mary, receives messages from Mary about what is occurring in the world, is given a tongue to fully understand another language(yes this occurred to one of the visionaries, she gained the knowledge to speak Italian, when she previously knew very little of the language, but learned to speak it fluently), is brought to officials, beaten, and questioned ruthlessly about her existence but still prevails, when people all throughout a village clearly see the words 'pax' in the sky(meaning peace in Latin), when being threatened to have your family's entire land and house seized away at the age of 16 by the government police and still go against them, and many more occurrences of faith, that these are all somebody just doing this because 'God would be the logical answer to why this is happening' you are making up think my friend. If God is what these people believe is the logical answer, and you are telling me they are wrong, then what would you tell me it is?
> 
> You find yourself in a position in which you must flush out God and everything about God, and you excuse your faith because that someone in your family forced you into prayer in order for you to eat. Any true Christian knows this is wrong, and the true face of Christianity, the one that the blessed Virgin Mary has come down from heaven to try and re-educate to the world, would not use fear and hunger to persuade it's believers. You are telling yourself that you are judging Christianity by a Christian, but you must learn to judge Christianity itself, and you will find no errors in Christianity. This is what many Atheists try to do, they create a false truth for themselves, but can't stand hearing the real truth, so they try eagerly to flush out the truth so they can live their false truth and they think that they have solved the important things in life when they haven't solved the most important. Mary has come to wash away the things that many people who call themselves christians, follow. You can find these things just by turning the TV on. If you think you are right, and that the Christian faith has errors, and that you can use those errors to prove that you are free from fault, then you are very wrong. I hope you can take my word with the fullest love of God that i have and i hope you can try to focus on something real that is occurring and that you can't escape, no matter how hard you try.


And they have to know about the Virgin Mary story, first, right? Near Death stuff, is always about close people we fear to leave or want to be with. A mind's fear of death.

Yes, I'm saying there are visions, perhaps and mental and brain perceptions we don't understand. Science tells us today, we are in muliti-vere, not as uni-verse. There is plenty of wonderous stuff of our preception. But, it's a big impossible leap to say it is Deity. It is Diety that is the basic assumption. 

And, I don't think you got my point. You were taught to pray to eat. You were 3 years old. You were too young to decide otherwise. Yet, you are so convienced you offer to guide.

What can you guide on except your assumptions that these old stories are true? So, lay off the preaching, because it has no basis. The entire thing is based on personal experiences and the telling of stories. This story of Abrahamic God as the only way to see it, is the story of Jewish politcal power in the face of high odd.

It is quite possibly a story created by Jewish sympathizers in the Roman Senate for their own purposes. Unlike you, I can take a completely unbiased look at the history. I don't buy into the protection racket, so I have no fear of the Devil.

It amounts to logic, based on conjecture, alone. It has no real foundation. A logical answer? No. Logic has foundation.


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## dashcues (Jul 9, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> So, basically, you are telling me that when a person *visions the Blessed Virgin Mary, receives messages from Mary *about what is occurring in the world, is given a tongue to fully understand another language(yes this occurred to one of the visionaries, she gained the knowledge to speak Italian, when she previously knew very little of the language, but learned to speak it fluently), is brought to officials, beaten, and questioned ruthlessly about her existence but still prevails, when people all throughout a village clearly see the words 'pax' in the sky(meaning peace in Latin), when being threatened to have your family's entire land and house seized away at the age of 16 by the government police and still go against them, and many more occurrences of faith, that these are all somebody just doing this because 'God would be the logical answer to why this is happening' you are making up think my friend. If God is what these people believe is the logical answer, and you are telling me they are wrong, then what would you tell me it is?
> 
> You find yourself in a position in which you must flush out God and everything about God, and you excuse your faith because that someone in your family forced you into prayer in order for you to eat. Any true Christian knows this is wrong, and the true face of Christianity, the one that the *blessed Virgin Mary has come down from heaven to try and re-educate to the world*, would not use fear and hunger to persuade it's believers. You are telling yourself that you are judging Christianity by a Christian, but you must learn to judge Christianity itself, and *you will find no errors in Christianity*. This is what many Atheists try to do, they create a false truth for themselves, but can't stand hearing the real truth, so they try eagerly to flush out the truth so they can live their false truth and they think that they have solved the important things in life when they haven't solved the most important. *Mary has come to wash away the things that many people who call themselves christians, follow*. You can find these things just by turning the TV on. If you think you are right, and that the Christian faith has errors, and that you can use those errors to prove that you are free from fault, then you are very wrong. I hope you can take my word with the fullest love of God that i have and i hope you can try to focus on something real that is occurring and that you can't escape, no matter how hard you try.



Catholic??


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## SirGreenThumb (Jul 9, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> So, basically, you are telling me that when a person visions the Blessed Virgin Mary, receives messages from Mary about what is occurring in the world, is given a tongue to fully understand another language(yes this occurred to one of the visionaries, she gained the knowledge to speak Italian, when she previously knew very little of the language, but learned to speak it fluently), is brought to officials, beaten, and questioned ruthlessly about her existence but still prevails, when people all throughout a village clearly see the words 'pax' in the sky(meaning peace in Latin), when being threatened to have your family's entire land and house seized away at the age of 16 by the government police and still go against them, and many more occurrences of faith, that these are all somebody just doing this because 'God would be the logical answer to why this is happening' you are making up think my friend. If God is what these people believe is the logical answer, and you are telling me they are wrong, then what would you tell me it is?
> 
> You find yourself in a position in which you must flush out God and everything about God, and you excuse your faith because that someone in your family forced you into prayer in order for you to eat. Any true Christian knows this is wrong, and the true face of Christianity, the one that the blessed Virgin Mary has come down from heaven to try and re-educate to the world, would not use fear and hunger to persuade it's believers. You are telling yourself that you are judging Christianity by a Christian, but you must learn to judge Christianity itself, and you will find no errors in Christianity. This is what many Atheists try to do, they create a false truth for themselves, but can't stand hearing the real truth, so they try eagerly to flush out the truth so they can live their false truth and they think that they have solved the important things in life when they haven't solved the most important. Mary has come to wash away the things that many people who call themselves christians, follow. You can find these things just by turning the TV on. If you think you are right, and that the Christian faith has errors, and that you can use those errors to prove that you are free from fault, then you are very wrong. I hope you can take my word with the fullest love of God that i have and i hope you can try to focus on something real that is occurring and that you can't escape, no matter how hard you try.


Pics or it didn't happen.


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## SirGreenThumb (Jul 9, 2012)

And I'm more willing to believe that the "VIRGIN" Mary was raped by a Roman soldier.


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## SirGreenThumb (Jul 9, 2012)

And another thing is if God has the ability to create man from dirt and woman from a rib why would he need to basically rape a woman to have a son? Wouldn't it just make more sense for him to go abracadabra and Poof Brand new son named HEYZUES..


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 9, 2012)

Yeshua could have been many things... I tend to think that he was a carpenters son that was conceived out of wed lock and his head was pumped full of the "information" that he was the son of god so as to not feel any shame in being a bastard and he then grew in to having lofty ideals above of the current corrupt religious organization, fueled by the lies he was told from the very moment he was born...


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## RebelMan (Jul 9, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Would everyone here not agree, that life and human existence as a whole would become infinitely more tolerable and enjoyable if everyone would do just one simple thing...
> 
> _*Keep your denominations to yourself!*_
> 
> ...


That won't work because Some people's beliefs are to kill their enemies, while other's beliefs are to love their enemies, People cannot co-exist with these very differentiaating beliefs, whether it be the example above or of many others, it just can't be done.


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## jessy koons (Jul 9, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Should be an interesting, and hopefully educating, thread. I see a lot of people claim they used to be atheists but saw the light and now they're a believer. Hopefully this thread sheds a little light on why that's an absurd statement to make, and why and how we each reached our own conclusions to nonbelief in a god.
> 
> I'll start...
> 
> ...


I never lost religion because when I went looking for it all I found was an invitation to shut down my natural inquisitiveness and just accept what I was told. 

So I looked a little deeper and I saw a huge flock of sheep braying in unison. That was all I needed to inform me that there is really nothing there except obedience and subservience.


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## RebelMan (Jul 9, 2012)

SirGreenThumb said:


> Pics or it didn't happen.


Blesses are those who believe and don't see. I am not making this up, just try researching it...


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## Doer (Jul 9, 2012)

It's always been that Chirstians will kill their enemies. And they don't need much provocation. That is what forgiveness is for. Let God sort the dead. Don't insult my God, if you know what's good for you. The Jews Killed God!! All made up.

And then you can proclaim peace for doing so. This bloody saga that we think we can't do without, Christ's salvation? Imagine if the plot never took off.

Christianity is a sham in that way. Peace? It was born of war and occupation, power, confusion and greed. It's just like all Religions, in that way. And as good as the "intentions" are the damnation is what and has been used as a hedious tool for bad. Even to proclaim today, that this is a religion of peace or practices what it preaches is somewhat of a joke. You have to be in the racket to believe the racket. 

If you don't believe the racket, you can't understand. 

Not any real knowledge or facts. Just blame and guilt.


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## missnu (Jul 9, 2012)

I was taking a world history class and it had a chart of the different world religions and what they were based on, and how they came about...and I noticed that it was all a big bunch of crap...you just got fed different crap depending on where you were born...
So, instead of playing guess the right God, I picked none of the Above...


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## dashcues (Jul 9, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> I am sure of this because this 'God's message is to return to the true face of Christianity, if i lived in Pakistan or in Vietnam it would not make a difference of the message, so what are you trying to prove? that just because there are people who are stuck on different beliefs, that all of the religions are wrong? The largest world religions can trace their existence back to something VERY similar, Christianity, the world largest religion has grown the most because it is true, and has seen the least change in what the '*True Christian Religion'* of the world is. Unlike Islam, who follow false prohets, and Judaism, who deny Jesus as the savior, and the Virgin Mary being the Mother of Jesus the Savior. As we can see now in Western Civilization, the fall of Christianity due to it's swayed beliefs... just look at American culture, it is so swayed from the '*True Christian Religion' *of the world that we can see the fall of it, but through Medjugorje, this *'True Christian Religion*' is being brought back and strengthened from the American Christian religion that is far from the truth, and the *'True Christian Religion*'
> 
> Sorry if that gets confusing, but i'm just trying to stay on topic and not go off and off about the things you, my friends bring up.


What is your idea of "The True Christian religion"?

I'll ask again...are you Catholic?


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## Doer (Jul 9, 2012)

When you know the dice are loaded you will surely crap out. I'm not saying there is not God. It is an assumption. We have to go back to the dawn of our cognition, as to why God? Why Deity? But, call it what you will, the assumption of Deity has been with us as far back as we know.

That alone is something to me. My own experiences are something to me. We get feed from birth, our religion. That is meaningful. Why Deity? A higher appeal than your dad? A way to raise childeren. Maybe Aqso Chstiogadsf can fix it for you. Say grace and eat your dinasaur bone.

And I thought the topic was, How did you lose your religion? You somehow see the subject as a chance to preach and guide.


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## Doer (Jul 9, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> Blesses are those who believe and don't see. I am not making this up, just try researching it...


But, you just made that up. What is a blessing? That is made up. It's good thing. Like candy. So, get a treat if you just believe it.

Well, guide us to the factual research, to show you aren't relying on assumptions and old stories.


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## RebelMan (Jul 9, 2012)

SirGreenThumb said:


> And another thing is if God has the ability to create man from dirt and woman from a rib why would he need to basically rape a woman to have a son? Wouldn't it just make more sense for him to go abracadabra and Poof Brand new son named HEYZUES..


First of all, your not funny, i find it disgraceful that you posted that, but to answer your absurd questions....
God sent an Angel to ask Mary if she would bring God into this world through a human form, and his name be Jesus. God did not rape Mary, or have someone rape Mary, and you can believe that, but it is wrong and does not follow the bible or any teachings of the Christian Church, not sure where you even heard of this idea, since there is nothing in the Bible showing this, and as for historical evidence, i would be surprised if you knew anything other than some youtube video or some unofficial website that could have been made by anybody. God gives us free will in all our decisions to do right or wrong and that came from Adam and Eve's choice to eat form the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. God would not rape a human being because that would not give us free will, such as Mary's choice to bear Jesus and raise him. It was hard to choose Good, having gone through all the pain that Mary endured suffering the death of Jesus, and having to ride on an ass everywhere(not sure what it is like to be pregnant, but as i man, i can't imagine that pain), she did a great deed for God, and has been rewarded greatly in heaven. 

Now if you think God would just create Jesus out of nowhere, well God can do this, but God made Jesus to show his love for us. God lived a life just as we do on Earth, and grew up just as we do. AS HUMANS, do have the choice of Good and Evil, and God himself had that choice but choose Good, proving his love for us. If God had Mary to lie with Joseph, it would be Joseph's son, not God's, God created Jesus in Mary's womb without an intercourse, and that is how God came about on Earth.

Because you believe in this Mary-was-raped idea, it takes away all meaning and credit to your own understanding on Christian Religion, when someone reads this thread, whether Atheist or Christian, they will know you honestly don't know what you are talking about, and you don't have a proper understanding on Christianity and of Christ. On top of that you try and make it a joke... i'm sorry, my friend, but you have disgraced yourself.


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## Doer (Jul 9, 2012)

Lood at you. You judgemental, ah hum, person. He did not disgrace himself. You did, Mr. Guide. It's called damnation. It is the attitude that you get to tisk, tisk and sadly shake your finger. But, now, offer a shred of blessing. You may have disgraced yourself....so funny.


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## RebelMan (Jul 9, 2012)

Doer said:


> But, you just made that up. What is a blessing? That is made up. It's good thing. Like candy. So, get a treat if you just believe it.
> 
> Well, guide us to the factual research, to show you aren't relying on assumptions and old stories.


First of all i meant blessed*, not blesses, and "blessed are those who believe and don't see" means that God, in heaven will good greatly upon those who believe without seeing. This is nothing like candy, and it is not "made up"

You go off and make things up like "its candy". please explain to me how it is like candy? you clearly can't even prove that i have been relying on assumptions and old stories. Taking a pilgrimage to another country, praying, and experiencing God as i did is not an assumption and is certainly not an old story.

Factual research on Medjugorje:

(i just googled it, lol, because i am not lazy like you)

http://www.medjugorje.ws/en/apparitions/docs-scientific-research-medjugorje-visionaries/


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## Doer (Jul 9, 2012)

And there you have it. Now I'm lazy. I'm not a Catholic and haven't gone the ways of the pilgram. 

Don't get all fussy, but, if you make up god, then you can make up this idea that god can give blessings. And blessings are like the little rewards, right? Like candy? You can count them, yes? One of your very basic repeated experience is blessing before food, yes?

But, the assumption is Diety. That your experiences and beliefs, your very world view has assumed Diety.

There is no explaination for Diety except assumption. This wonder "has" to be that, correct?
Please address this. But, please Don't preach.  What is there to go by, but feeling and stories? Does not have to be Diety.

You put two and two together and got one anwer. I have another possiblity. I think it's assumption and false connection to 
outer difinitiions to inner feeling. Then we all acccept it, or else, no food. to bed without supper.

There is no proof of God or Blessings. Is there?


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 9, 2012)

If and I mean it as a big if... If god came to earth in human form then of course he would choose what is right by him and seeing as god through most of the bible can do no wrong and whatever god does is just and right, by default anything Jesus did would be the right course of action... and secondly if god came down in human form and then sacrificed that body... where the hell is the real sacrifice..? it makes the whole thing meaningless...


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## RebelMan (Jul 9, 2012)

dashcues said:


> What is your idea of "The True Christian religion"?
> 
> I'll ask again...are you Catholic?


Strict Catholic, follow Jesus teaching exactly and carry them out every day. I Follow the Old and New Testament with just as much faith. I believe in much of what is occurring in Medjugorje is the true face of Christianity.


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 9, 2012)

And you know why Catholicism has all those saints don't you..? it is because the people the church were trying to convert always had female and multiple gods to pray to...


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## cannabineer (Jul 9, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Would everyone here not agree, that life and human existence as a whole would become infinitely more tolerable and enjoyable if everyone would do just one simple thing...
> 
> *Keep your denominations to yourself!*
> 
> ...


You realize, don't you, that you are asking the one unacceptable thing, no?
Religions and denominations ... the young, virulent ones ... are memes with a built-in carrier function. It's all about spreading the meme. It's all about evangelism. Infection. Propagation. Territory claimed. A meme plus carrier that is not virulent has been left behind on the evolutionary path. cn


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## dashcues (Jul 9, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> Strict Catholic, follow Jesus teaching exactly and carry them out every day. I Follow the Old and New Testament with just as much faith. I believe in much of what is occurring in Medjugorje is the true face of Christianity.


So Catholic = True Christian religion....correct?

And my wife wonders why I debate more theists than atheists.lol
Rebelman if you would care to discuss these claims of yours in a different thread,I would be more than happy to discuss this topic.

as for now,I won't derail this thread any further.

Sorry Pad


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## cannabineer (Jul 9, 2012)

_In re_ medical miracles: the only examples I have seen are conditions for which spontaneous remission, religiously influenced and not, have been recorded. Tumors, lamemess, etc.

To really impress me, I would want to see a miraculous healing of a condition for which NO instance of spontaneous remission has been recorded.
Candidates:
amputations, esp. decapitation
Down's syndrome
Other structural congenital birth defects. e.g. thalidomide deformities
Anyone have others? cn


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## RebelMan (Jul 9, 2012)

Doer said:


> And there you have it. Now I'm lazy. I'm not a Catholic and haven't gone the ways of the pilgram.
> 
> Don't get all fussy, but, if you make up god, then you can make up this idea that god can give blessings. And blessings are like the little rewards, right? Like candy? You can count them, yes? One of your very basic repeated experience is blessing before food, yes?
> 
> ...


1. I never made up a God, i am just using what i have learned and seen. part of what occurred to me in Medjugorje, which is by all means fact, by the evidence i have presented and by any research you do.
2. Yes, blessing are much like rewards, but you can't count them, I have no idea yet, the magnitude of God's blessings and what God has in store for me and how God is going to judge me. And no, there is no blessing before food? we do not bless food, only bread and wine, but that is during Church celebration. Before a meal a Christian as my self can pray to God and thank God for the meal God has brought forth on the earth and for everything in abundance. I don't understand where you get these ideas of the Christian faith that we forsee our food as a reward? or in your words: "candy"
3.


> This wonder "has" to be that, correct?


Deity has to be the answer because when a wonder occurs and this wonder is proclaiming a deity (to follow God), then yes, i do not see any other reason that it could be anything else? are you saying that when the blessed Virgin Mary came to the Children in Medjugorje and told them to follow God and gives them messages, that I am just "assuming" that a God exists? of course i am because i am backed up by fact and true occurrences.
4. When you criticize people who deny food to those who do not accept God, you are Criticizing the works of those who have lost parts of the the true face of Christianity, for denying food to people is not the true face of Christianity, and that is not how i see the world, and that is not something someone can use to criticize God. 

May i ask, what makes you think that i assume that God exists? I base my beliefs off of the Bible and off of true experiences in my life, and off of true experiences that have occurred to Christians over thousands of years.


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## RebelMan (Jul 9, 2012)

dashcues said:


> So Catholic = True Christian religion....correct?
> 
> 
> And my wife wonders why I debate more theists than atheists.lol
> ...


Would love to, yes this is way off topic, but since only a few people actually posted their into Athiest conversion stories, i figured that it didn't matter much and the debate never seemed to bother to want to change.


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## RebelMan (Jul 9, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> _In re_ medical miracles: the only examples I have seen are conditions for which spontaneous remission, religiously influenced and not, have been recorded. Tumors, lamemess, etc.
> 
> To really impress me, I would want to see a miraculous healing of a condition for which NO instance of spontaneous remission has been recorded.
> Candidates:
> ...


I would love to see that too, but most importantly i would love to be able to go to heaven and meet God for 1 hour and have a chat. Unfortunately that is not the case. Still God prevails in some healing. Here is one significant one that has been attested to:

Mrs. Diana Basile, born October 5, 1940 in Platizza, Cosenza, Italy, suffered from multiple sclerosis, an otherwise incurable disease, from 1972 till May 23, 1984. In spite of the expert help of the professors and doctors at the clinic in Milan, she grew more and more sick. By her own desire she came to Medjugorje and was present during the apparition of Our Lady in a room connected to the Church and was suddenly healed. All of that happened in such a quick and thorough way that on the following day the same woman walked barefoot 12 kilometres from the hotel in Ljubuski, where she spent the night, to the apparition hill in order to thank Our Lady for the healing. Ever since then until today, she has remained well. Upon her return to Milan, the doctors were astonished by her healing and immediately established a medical commission, which was again thoroughly to examine both the previous and present condition of the healed woman. They collected 143 documents and, in the end, 25 professors, head doctors, and other doctors wrote a special book about the disease and the healing in which they stated that Diana Basile indeed did suffer from multiple sclerosis, that for many years she was unsuccessfully treated, but that now she is completely well and that this did not happen by any kind of therapy, nor by any kind of medicine. They, thereby, indicated that the cause of the healing was from a different than scientific source.

3rd paragraph on this page:

http://www.medjugorje.ws/en/apparitions/docs-medjugorje-miracles/

You're welcome


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 9, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Would everyone here not agree, that life and human existence as a whole would become infinitely more tolerable and enjoyable if everyone would do just one simple thing...
> 
> *Keep your denominations to yourself!*
> 
> ...


Yeah yeah keep complaining Z, Im still gunna say what I want. No matter how much you BELIEVE (lol) the underlined section is true, its not, not in my case at least... I seen some things, man! and some STUFF! lol Im too deep into the rabbit hole to be able to question the reality of my experiences (no need to blabber about your view on experiences). And this is a spirituality forum man, are you seriously gunna copy-n-paste that atheistic blow hard blabber every time someone discusses spirituality? I figured you'd be used to this kinda stuff by now.


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## Doer (Jul 9, 2012)

I have explained that it is an assumption. You say, it can't possibly be that all those Christians before us were wrong. So, I didn't say you made up a god. I say you were washed into it before you were very old, at your home, at your table.

I say the concept of Diety, call it what you will, is assumption. You can't refute that. You assume there is Diety. And you then believe that assumption is connected with your experience by believing the stories. Admit it? It was taught to you.

And are you saying there was no praying before dinner in your house? And were you not at that table not of your will, having none?

And so linked with food and no resistance allowed, you assumed these adults were correct. Yes you did. You could not even talk yet. I'm right?


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 9, 2012)

I'm not even religious and I assume there is a deity... I can't seem to quite wrap my head around the universe without there being one or many...


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## cannabineer (Jul 9, 2012)

> But multiple sclerosis is exactly one of those conditions that have a history of spontaneous remission.
> See, for example:
> n the case of multiple sclerosis, spontaneous remission is quite common: about 20 per cent of the patients suffer from its benign form, which heals completely, while another 25 per cent suffer from the form called "remitting" that recurs even after years [Cf. Jürg Kesselring, _Multiple Sklerose_, Kohlhammer, Stuttgart, 1993, p. 242 and Clive P. Hawkins, Jerry S. Wolinsky, _Principles of Treatments in Multiple Sclerosis_, Butterworth-Heinemann, Burlington, 2000, p. 324]. *****​ Besides, immune system&#8217;s dynamics and psychosomatic reactions are still not fully understood. In 1996 Roger Pilon, M.D., at that time director of Lourdes&#8217; Bureau Médical, wrote: Psychosomatics is far from having revealed all of its complexity. Currently, it provides attractive explanations for certain surprising healings.
> [Roger Pilon, _Le miracle, un don de Dieu_, ("The Miracle, a Gift From God"), Lourdes Magazine, 53, 1996, p. 11]​The somatization of psychological problems deserves a separate mention.
> According to the DSM-IV TR (the reference manual for psychiatrists from around the world) the so-called "conversion disorder" can cause paralysis and blindness of psychological origin.


 This came from here:
http://www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en/in-search-of-miracles.html
I consider it an interesting read, esp. the fact that the Lourdes committee uses terms such as "unexplained" and "exceptional" as opposed to "miraculous", which is impossible to prove except for disease states for which spont. remission has NEVER been reported, like amputation or Down's. 
Thus I contend that as candidates for miracle, conditions with even one documented case of spontaneous remission are disqualified. cn


----------



## RebelMan (Jul 9, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> If and I mean it as a big if... If god came to earth in human form then of course he would choose what is right by him and seeing as god through most of the bible can do no wrong and whatever god does is just and right, by default anything Jesus did would be the right course of action... and secondly if god came down in human form and then sacrificed that body... where the hell is the real sacrifice..? it makes the whole thing meaningless...


Uhh... open your brain main light yourself a spliff..

Sorry if i confused you, but Jesus and God are different. Jesus is God's human form, and different from God.
Jesus died on the cross... he could have taken the easy route of Evil by denying he was the king of the Jews, but instead he held his faith.
You can tell Jesus was under a test by how he was in the Garden after the last supper, praying to God for guidance, just before Judas led the soldiers to imprison him.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 9, 2012)

I experienced too many amazing things to assume there is a deity/deities. I know there is, and they want us to be just like them.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 9, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> Uhh... open your brain main light yourself a spliff..
> 
> Sorry if i confused you, but Jesus and God are different. Jesus is God's human form, and different from God.
> Jesus died on the cross... he could have taken the easy route of Evil by denying he was the king of the Jews, but instead he held his faith.
> You can tell Jesus was under a test by how he was in the Garden after the last supper, praying to God for guidance, just before Judas led the soldiers to imprison him.


No response to my rant?


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## RebelMan (Jul 9, 2012)

Doer said:


> I have explained that it is an assumption. You say, it can't possibly be that all those Christians before us were wrong. So, I didn't say you made up a god. I say you were washed into it before you were very old, at your home, at your table.
> 
> I say the concept of Diety, call it what you will, is assumption. You can't refute that. You assume there is Diety. And you then believe that assumption is connected with your experience by believing the stories. Admit it? It was taught to you.
> 
> ...


Sorry my friend, but it is not an assumption that i made to follow and believe God, it is f*aith* that i had to believe in God. From my parents teaching me, They taught me to have faith, and that is what i did, and they taught me to have faith that when i die my good actions will be counted and judged. I kept faith to do good and not wrong and over the years i have learned that by doing that and following the true faith of Christianity i can bring about good in the world by doing so. In Medjugorje, i learned that i can do this through prayer, fasting, communion, confession, and daily reading of the bible.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 9, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> Sorry my friend, but it is not an assumption that i made to follow and believe God, it is f*aith* that i had to believe in God. From my parents teaching me, They taught me to have faith, and that is what i did, and they taught me to have faith that when i die my good actions will be counted and judged. I kept faith to do good and not wrong and over the years i have learned that by doing that and following the true faith of Christianity i can bring about good in the world by doing so. In Medjugorje, i learned that i can do this through prayer, fasting, communion, confession, and daily reading of the bible.


No reply to my rant? I'd appreciate a well thought out reply, not a short ignorant one, please.


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## RebelMan (Jul 9, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> No response to my rant?


ppshht, your from canada?!?!?

kidding...

I'm glad you can be assured of God, i'm not against you man i'm proud you can see the light and hold your belief in God firmly.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 9, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> ppshht, your from canada?!?!?
> 
> kidding...
> 
> I'm glad you can be assured of God, i'm not against you man i'm proud you can see the light and hold your belief in God firmly.


Yes, I do hold a belief in MYSELF firmly. There is many gods, which ones should we worship? NONE. An eternity of kissing ass and praising a god sounds like a pretty pathetic existence to me. I'd rather use that eternities worth of time to learn, experience and evolve so I too can know what it takes to be a "god".


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## Doer (Jul 9, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> Sorry my friend, but it is not an assumption that i made to follow and believe God, it is f*aith* that i had to believe in God. From my parents teaching me, They taught me to have faith, and that is what i did, and they taught me to have faith that when i die my good actions will be counted and judged. I kept faith to do good and not wrong and over the years i have learned that by doing that and following the true faith of Christianity i can bring about good in the world by doing so. In Medjugorje, i learned that i can do this through prayer, fasting, communion, confession, and daily reading of the bible.


And you have to assume there is something to have faith in. You have to assume there is a Diety. You want the faith to believe the assumption as the bible tells you so.

So, we are not talking about your choices as an adult. The die was cast. And the fact is, you were taught about the very idea of Diety. You assumed that was real.


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## RebelMan (Jul 9, 2012)

Doer said:


> And you have to assume there is something to have faith in. You have to assume there is a Diety. You want the faith to believe the assumption as the bible tells you so.
> 
> So, we are not talking about your choices as an adult. The die was cast. And the fact is, you were taught about the very idea of Diety. You assumed that was real.


What is your point? what are you trying to make? that because someone assumes something, they are wrong? i had my faith because i assumed that my parents wouldn't lie to me, i assumed that because so many people in my community followed Christianity, that it must have had to be real. I did that, and after Medjugorje, I found that as an adult it was true, and that assuming i did early on in my life that sparked a sense of believe and open-mindedness really paid off. For God is true and Medjugorje has proven to the world that God and deity is fact. So proud i got to experience it. Nice chatting with you, my friend. Any other questions you which to ask on this forum?


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## Doer (Jul 9, 2012)

Well, yes. Don't assume I'm saying anything is wrong. It's Christian, this absolute right and wrong. So, no, don't accuse me of saying you are wrong. Your parents are just like you. They didn't lie, they were imprinted. their parents were imprinted, and so on. I think you can wonder about this without fear if you cast your faith real wide but not aside.

And so because you heard about it, you went with it, raised in it. Then went to this place. And because someone saw Something. They assumed it was the Madonna. It might be Vishnu in another culture. All little childern are subject to seeing anything we suggest. You have to assume all these connections. And you have to start with assuming there even is Diety. As you say. It's not wrong. You were imprinted. Your faith is bigger than you may have known is all. So, the point is assumption of Diety. Nothing else.

And, I do have this question. If you are devout then you submit to the church. You have a priest. The priest is in an Order, perhaps. So, where does Cannabis fit in, if you don't mind my asking? How does your priest understand correctness about this?


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## dashcues (Jul 9, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> What is your point? what are you trying to make? that because someone assumes something, they are wrong? i had my faith because i assumed that my parents wouldn't lie to me, i assumed that because so many people in my community followed Christianity, that it must have had to be real. I did that, and after Medjugorje, I found that as an adult it was true, and that assuming i did early on in my life that sparked a sense of believe and open-mindedness really paid off. For God is true and Medjugorje has proven to the world that God and deity is fact. So proud i got to experience it. Nice chatting with you, my friend. Any other questions you which to ask on this forum?


While I don't believe The Catholic Church has anything to do with the "True Christian Religion",
As a believer myself,I can appreciate the fact that you went to Medjugorje as a testament to your faith and had a spiritual revelation.
Good for ya!


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 9, 2012)

dashcues said:


> While I don't believe The Catholic Church has anything to do with the "True Christian Religion",
> As a believer myself,I can appreciate the fact that you went to Medjugorje as a testament to your faith and had a spiritual revelation.
> Good for ya!


I can't. Look what it's done to him.


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## dashcues (Jul 9, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> I can't. Look what it's done to him.


touche'..


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 9, 2012)

Even as an atheist I leave room for doubt. 

There's not a shred of doubt in Rebel's faith, and that's what's dangerous.


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## RebelMan (Jul 9, 2012)

Doer said:


> Well, yes. Don't assume I'm saying anything is wrong. It's Christian, this absolute right and wrong. So, no, don't accuse me of saying you are wrong. Your parents are just like you. They didn't lie, they were imprinted. their parents were imprinted, and so on. I think you can wonder about this without fear if you cast your faith real wide but not aside.
> 
> And so because you heard about it, you went with it, raised in it. Then went to this place. And because someone saw Something. They assumed it was the Madonna. It might be Vishnu in another culture. All little childern are subject to seeing anything we suggest. You have to assume all these connections. And you have to start with assuming there even is Diety. As you say. It's not wrong. You were imprinted. Your faith is bigger than you may have known is all. So, the point is assumption of Diety. Nothing else.
> 
> And, I do have this question. If you are devout then you submit to the church. You have a priest. The priest is in an Order, perhaps. So, where does Cannabis fit in, if you don't mind my asking? How does your priest understand correctness about this?


There is nothing int he bible that goes against Cannabis
The Catholic Catechism hold to abstain from drug use because they are harmful to your body, and God does not want us to destroy our bodies. Cannabis does not hurt your body, it has been shown to be of medication and if inhaled correctly there is nothing wrong with it, plus you can put it in food.
When i smoke Cannabis, i honestly feel a lot better about myself and i wish to do good things in the world. i like to smoke a good oney and then go outside and work, or accomplish something, hoe a garden plant some plants.
God created Cannabis for a reason, and these systems(governments) have been destroying its seed for decades. I am completely opposed to these systems and will smoke herb until they collapse. I honestly don't even find the same thrill i did when i first started, i find it more relaxing, more peaceful, and with my Cannabis use it has brought me closer to God, and away from material things, and i want and inspiration to live simple and humble, possibly because i conserve my weed and have built a little better tolerance, but am still the biggest lightweight you will ever meet). Most importantly, i want to get along with everyone i meet, even the assholes. I abstain from tobacco, alcohol and any other drug that is not purely a seed-bearing plant. Although i don't really have any interest in expanding into drug use. Since i don't consider herb a drug, its a friggin plant for gosh sakes.

I don't talk to my priest about cannabis, but i think many priests could see the flaws in cannabis actually being a drug. Cannabis has been taught very differently and is very different from "other drugs". Never quite asked, but i went to confession and confessed for weed, that was a while ago and now i know its not bad.


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## kpmarine (Jul 9, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> There is nothing int he bible that goes against Cannabis
> The Catholic Catechism hold to abstain from drug use because they are harmful to your body, and God does not want us to destroy our bodies. Cannabis does not hurt your body, it has been shown to be of medication and if inhaled correctly there is nothing wrong with it, plus you can put it in food.
> When i smoke Cannabis, i honestly feel a lot better about myself and i wish to do good things in the world. i like to smoke a good oney and then go outside and work, or accomplish something, hoe a garden plant some plants.
> God created Cannabis for a reason, and these systems(governments) have been destroying its seed for decades. I am completely opposed to these systems and will smoke herb until they collapse. I honestly don't even find the same thrill i did when i first started, i find it more relaxing, more peaceful, and with my Cannabis use it has brought me closer to God, and away from material things, and i want and inspiration to live simple and humble, possibly because i conserve my weed and have built a little better tolerance, but am still the biggest lightweight you will ever meet). Most importantly, i want to get along with everyone i meet, even the assholes. I abstain from tobacco, alcohol and any other drug that is not purely a seed-bearing plant. Although i don't really have any interest in expanding into drug use. Since i don't consider herb a drug, its a friggin plant for gosh sakes.
> ...


So how do you go against your government's orders? The bible plainly states that you are to obey all laws of your government. 

*Romans 13:1-4 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."*

Seeing as not using weed isn't a sin, how do you justify one against the other?


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## Trolling (Jul 9, 2012)

Doesn't the bible also say something about homosexuals?


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## kpmarine (Jul 9, 2012)

Trolling said:


> Doesn't the bible also say something about homosexuals?


That's one dead horse at this point.


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## the large d (Jul 9, 2012)

I never lose faith in my cock. In times of pain, in times of sorrow, i bust a nut and recharge for tomorrow. All praise the large d.


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## Trolling (Jul 9, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> That's one dead horse at this point.


Which means not everything in the buybull is right, same goes for drug use.


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## Heisenberg (Jul 9, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> For God is true and Medjugorje has proven to the world that God and deity is fact.


Actually most of the world, including the church, remains quite skeptical of the claims of Medjugorje.



> After a few years of thorough and intense investigative study, which the Church always exercises to determine an unmistakable decision in these matters, the Bishop issued a statement in 1986 giving the results of the study. In the statement, Msgr. Zanic proclaimed that these apparitions are not made by the most Holy Virgin Mary





> Another committee on the national level, composed of 20 bishops, was organized to decide on the "apparitions". This committee also spent several years in patiently studying the matter and finally in November 1990 issued a statement which concluded that there is no proof that Marian apparitions have occurred at Medjugorje. This statement was approved nearly unanimously, with 19 bishops in favor and one abstaining. A Vatican doctrinal official said the bishops' statement against defining the apparitions as supernatural should be accepted by the faithful around the world.





> "They particularly do not seem to be authentic," the local bishop observed, "when it is known before that these so-called 'apparitions' will occur." Bishop Peri&#263; cited the schedule that the Medjugorje seers have provided, listing the times and places at which they claim the next visits by the Mother of God will occur. Thousands of messages from Mary are now claimed, and the bishop observed that "the flood of so-called apparitions, messages, secrets, and signs do not strengthen the faith, but rather further convince us that in all of this there is nothing neither authentic nor established as truthful."
> 
> Bishop Peri&#263; reminded his people of the restrictions that he has imposed on activities in Medjugorje. The parish church is not formally a "shrine," he said, and should not be characterized as such. Pilgrimages to the church are discouraged. Priests there are "not authorized to express their private views contrary to the official position of the Church on the so-called 'apparitions' and 'messages,' during celebrations of the sacraments, nor during other common acts of piety, nor in the Catholic media."



http://www.olrl.org/prophecy/medjugorje.shtml
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4110



It's okay to say Medjugorje is convincing to you, but you are trying to paint a picture that it has been convincing to all who have visited, and that the world accepts it. This is obviously wrong.


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## cannabineer (Jul 9, 2012)

Trolling said:


> Doesn't the bible also say something about homosexuals?


It does say something about forgiving your brother, should he even go behind your back seventy-seven times ... i accept that as an endorsement. cn


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## rpgdude (Jul 9, 2012)

Iv spent most of my life around full Pentecostal holiness people.They believe in all that miracle shit they even speak in tongs. This is how a "miracle" starts . 1995, Preacher I have a bad head ache. BE HEALED! 2012, This man came in with a brain tumor and he is alive today PRAISE JESUS! No shit, bad backs become broken spines and limps become paraplegics. Some kid had a hallucination after a life time of brainwashing. It made him very popular and now the other kids are doing the same shit, not to mention the superstitious mass's that flock to this bullshit and bring in money for the aria. If Merry wants to say something important she might try calling CNN instead some kids. Oh and tell Merry if she wants to heal cancer there are hospitals all over the world that could document the miracles and save billions of souls, Its that document part I bet she wont like.


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## cannabineer (Jul 9, 2012)

To me, Pentecostals are the prime embodiment of the Church of the Virulent Meme. cn


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## Trolling (Jul 9, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> It does say something about forgiving your brother, should he even go behind your back seventy-seven times ... i accept that as an endorsement. cn


77 times?

The point of it tho is that it's different today and is no longer considered a sin.


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## dashcues (Jul 9, 2012)

Trolling said:


> 77 times?
> 
> The point of it tho is that it's different today and is no longer considered a sin.


And even in ancient days,it was only considered a sin within certain circles.


Sad isn't it?
That these books from long ago,that tell us not to judge,yet some use that same set of books to judge others.
weird huh?


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## Doer (Jul 9, 2012)

That's why he couldn't leave home. He didn't want to leave his little brothers' behind.


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## cannabineer (Jul 9, 2012)

Doer said:


> That's why he couldn't leave home. He didn't want to leave his little brothers' behind.


Suffer the little children, leered the priest. cn


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## Trolling (Jul 9, 2012)

dashcues said:


> And even in ancient days,it was only considered a sin within certain circles.
> 
> 
> Sad isn't it?
> ...


Lol, I wonder how it was scribed in there and people couldn't figure out that being gay wasn't a choice, and how a gay man living in secret would have to force a boner to be intimate with their wives lol. I can just imagine the disgust on his face.


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## Doer (Jul 9, 2012)

They managed in Sparta to only see their wives, on the dark of the moon, to impregnate her, quickly, fully clothed. Then they hurried back to the barraks for some real fun. Maybe go, a murdering, among the Helots. 

See, God was not yet invented. Women were Holy.


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## cannabineer (Jul 9, 2012)

Blessed are they whose boners are unforced. cn


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## Doer (Jul 10, 2012)

And I don't think gay guys are disgusted by females. They are afraid of them. Hell, we all are, right?


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 10, 2012)

Trolling said:


> Lol, I wonder how it was scribed in there and people couldn't figure out that being gay wasn't a choice, and how a gay man living in secret would have to force a boner to be intimate with their wives lol. I can just imagine the disgust on his face.


He could just close his eyes and jab her up the poop chute until he;s about to bust and then slip it in the other whole...


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## Zaehet Strife (Jul 10, 2012)

Doer said:


> And I don't think gay guys are disgusted by females. They are afraid of them. Hell, we all are, right?


My best friend is gay, no, i am not afraid of him.


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## cannabineer (Jul 10, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> My best friend is gay, no, i am not afraid of him.


I think it was meant the other way around: that men are generally afraid of (Ferengi voice) fee-male huu-maans. 
However I have not found that to be usual, and doubt it so for gays. If anything, they're _competitors_ with women; witness camp. cn

<add> Not camp the place! The overblown style.


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## kpmarine (Jul 10, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I think it was meant the other way around: that men are generally afraid of (Ferengi voice) fee-male huu-maans.
> However I have not found that to be usual, and doubt it so for gays. If anything, they're _competitors_ with women; witness camp. cn
> 
> <add> Not camp the place! The overblown style.


That's why they like to go shopping together. "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 10, 2012)

I keep my friends at a great distance and I got rid of all my enemies...


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## kpmarine (Jul 10, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> I keep my friends at a great distance and I got rid of all my enemies...


Now you're just being contrary.


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 10, 2012)

Not really... The only people that can hurt me are the ones I let get close...


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## Morgan Lynn (Jul 11, 2012)

I've always been a non-believer. I've even _tried_ to believe once. It didn't work because I have logic and reasoning skills.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 11, 2012)

You know what the funniest thing is about religious folks? 

You actually believe, that from the very beginning of time itself, you/your people were present AND the center of all life. From the beginning, to the end, it was all about you. Not only were you there and at the top of the pole from the beginning... but when the world will end is when you and your people leave it. Where do you go to? On to the after life for humans. To live forever. This place (Everything in existence, ever heard of a gigaparsec?) was made all just for you to hang out until it is time to go to an even better place that was also made just for you and yours.

 this is for you.


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## tyler.durden (Jul 11, 2012)

HeartlandHank said:


> You know what the funniest thing is about religious folks?
> 
> You actually believe, that from the very beginning of time itself, you/your people were present AND the center of all life. From the beginning, to the end, it was all about you. Not only were you there and at the top of the pole from the beginning... but when the world will end is when you and your people leave it. Where do you go to? On to the after life for humans. To live forever. This place (Everything in existence, ever heard of a gigaparsec?) was made all just for you to hang out until it is time to go to an even better place that was also made just for you and yours.
> 
> this is for you.


Awesome Hank, very amusing! +rep...


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 11, 2012)

HeartlandHank said:


> You know what the funniest thing is about religious folks?
> 
> You actually believe, that from the very beginning of time itself, you/your people were present AND the center of all life. From the beginning, to the end, it was all about you. Not only were you there and at the top of the pole from the beginning... but when the world will end is when you and your people leave it. Where do you go to? On to the after life for humans. To live forever. This place (Everything in existence, ever heard of a gigaparsec?) was made all just for you to hang out until it is time to go to an even better place that was also made just for you and yours.
> 
> this is for you.


Which is really ironic considering the majority of theists consider atheism egotistical. 

Is this real life?


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## Mellowman2112 (Jul 11, 2012)

patlpp said:


> When you face inevitable death, you will pray to God. Trust me.


And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them


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## Zaehet Strife (Jul 11, 2012)

Mellowman2112 said:


> And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them


This lord dude sounds terribly ferocious, evil, unforgiving and unkind...for supposedly being such a loving idea. 

The claim that there are no atheists in foxholes has been debunked time and time again. Just as Carl Sagan died, he had no regrets, and still no metaphysical or theological attachments.

"Carl faced his death with unflagging courage & never sought refuge in illusions. The tragedy was that we knew we would never see each other again. I don&#8217;t ever expect to be reunited with Carl. *But, the great thing is that when we were together, for nearly twenty years, we lived with a vivid appreciation of how brief & precious life is.* We never trivialized the meaning of death by pretending it was anything other than a final parting. *Every single moment that we were alive & we were together was miraculous* &#8212; not miraculous in the sense of inexplicable or supernatural. We knew we were beneficiaries of chance&#8230; That pure chance could be so generous & so kind&#8230; That we could find each other, as Carl wrote so beautifully in_ Cosmos_, you know, in the vastness of space & the immensity of time&#8230; That we could be together for twenty years. That is something which sustains me & it&#8217;s much more meaningful&#8230;

The way he treated me & the way I treated him, the way we took care of each other & our family, while he lived. That is so much more important than the idea I will see him someday. *I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ll ever see Carl again. But I saw him. We saw each other. We found each other in the cosmos, and that was wonderful."*
​


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## Zaehet Strife (Jul 11, 2012)

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe."

-Sagan


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## cannabineer (Jul 11, 2012)

Mellowman2112 said:


> And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them


That sounds soooo much better while aiming a 1911. cn


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## smok3h (Jul 12, 2012)

How did I lose my religion?

I don't know, I think it fell out of my pockets and is stuck between some couch cushions somewhere.... can't find the damn thing anywhere.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 12, 2012)

From that I'm assuming you were never a religious person, I was wondering, do you feel like you may be missing out on that perspective? 

Do you find it easy to relate to theists or more difficult because of your background? Or does it not make much of a difference at all?


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## dontexist21 (Jul 12, 2012)

I took a second to think.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 12, 2012)

dontexist21 said:


> I took a second to think.


Details, son!


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## woodsusa (Jul 12, 2012)

I can see someone being an agnostic though I believe there is a Creator. I don't see how someone can be an Atheist anymore than I can see how someone can be a Christian. Atheists deny the existence of God but to do so requires faith since they can't prove that God doesn't exist and our very existence screams of creation. Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah though he doesn't fit most, if any, of the criteria of what the Messiah would be that were set out in the old testament. I don't believe any of the organized religions or any person knows the true nature of the creator. We are limited to 5 senses, there is much in the universe we cannot see or touch or smell or taste.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 12, 2012)

woodsusa said:


> I can see someone being an agnostic though I believe there is a Creator. I don't see how someone can be an Atheist anymore than I can see how someone can be a Christian. Atheists deny the existence of God but to do so requires faith since they can't prove that God doesn't exist and our very existence screams of creation. Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah though he doesn't fit most, if any, of the criteria of what the Messiah would be that were set out in the old testament. I don't believe any of the organized religions or any person knows the true nature of the creator. We are limited to 5 senses, there is much in the universe we cannot see or touch or smell or taste.


I'd consider myself an agnostic atheist, in that I don't know if a god exists, but I also don't believe one does, because no evidence so far has convinced me. 

I believe no belief is better than a false one. 

I disagree how our existence screams of creation, could you provide examples of why you believe it does? 

In the last couple sentences of your response, are you saying you believe basically because there is still much to be answered, much we currently can't explain?


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## Heisenberg (Jul 12, 2012)

woodsusa said:


> I can see someone being an agnostic though I believe there is a Creator. I don't see how someone can be an Atheist anymore than I can see how someone can be a Christian. Atheists deny the existence of God but to do so requires faith since they can't prove that God doesn't exist and our very existence screams of creation. Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah though he doesn't fit most, if any, of the criteria of what the Messiah would be that were set out in the old testament. I don't believe any of the organized religions or any person knows the true nature of the creator. We are limited to 5 senses, there is much in the universe we cannot see or touch or smell or taste.


You have a misconception of what an atheist necessarily says. A non-theist does not necessarily say god does not exist, though I agree that to do so requires a leap of faith. One can be an atheist and be completely without faith. All that is required is the failure to be convinced by the theist's argument. IOW, a person does not need to make a positive claim to be atheist, they simply need to reject the claim made be theists. I am not convinced of God, yet I can not prove to myself he doesn't exist. In the eyes of the theist, I am atheist. Knowing I am atheist tells you one thing, that I do not buy the theist's argument, but it does not tell you that I make the positive claim that there is no god. You have to ask for more clarification beyond the label of atheist to find that out.


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## WyoGrow (Jul 12, 2012)

Our existence on this planted screams of nothing more than evolution and, until recently in our case, the process of competition and natural selection.


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## MHA1990 (Jul 12, 2012)

When I was about seven I realized how similar it sounded to the fairy tales I had been hearing most of my life, I realized how fucking stupid a talking snake sounded. Honestly, the bible is pile of racist, sexist horse shit written by old white men who pretended to be under the guise of an all mighty being to gain power and influence. 
I personally don't believe in god, and have nothing against people who believe in god, as my beef is with religious institutions. Spirituality itself isn't the problem, its when people go around parading their beliefs asking non-believers or people of different religions why their such idiots.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 12, 2012)

I find it weird to insult god.. It's like realizing your imaginary friend isn't real and then insulting this imaginary friend.


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## april (Jul 12, 2012)

MHA1990 said:


> When I was about seven I realized how similar it sounded to the fairy tales I had been hearing most of my life, I realized how fucking stupid a talking snake sounded. Honestly, the bible is pile of racist, sexist horse shit written by old white men who pretended to be under the guise of an all mighty being to gain power and influence.
> I personally don't believe in god, and have nothing against people who believe in god, as my beef is with religious institutions. Spirituality itself isn't the problem, its when people go around parading their beliefs asking non-believers or people of different religions why their such idiots.


I don't attend church for this very reason, my spiritual beliefs are my own, why should i be told how and when to practice it. Fuck i hate all organized religion.

Even Katie holmes put her foot down..... lol


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## rpgdude (Jul 12, 2012)

RebelMan said:


> For God is true and Medjugorje has proven to the world that God and deity is fact.


 Nothing is proven! Zip! Hey my 5yo nephew has an imaginary friend and believes in Santa. Would you like me to ask him what God is telling his friend? One sec....................................................................................................God said don't argue with brainwashed idiots. Now that's proof there is a god if ever there was proof.


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## aTTicRaT (Jul 12, 2012)

I just grew up I guess.... I once believed in Santa Claus, and the Easter bunny, and Batman. Once I realized these were all fake characters I just eventually applied the same reasoning skills to religion. Plus if you look at some religions like Scientology, which is completely wacko, and then say, "but wait it has all the same principals of a 'legitimate' religion, like Christianity, a well received religion", it's just ludicrous to believe that either are true. Can't we just live by some nice moral boundaries without having to pray or repent or kill women that cheat on their husbands (for all those barbaric dipshits in the middle-east). Science has pretty much proven all we need to know about our whereabouts in this grand universe not God or Buddha or Zenu. With that said isn't it also naive to believe we are the only 'semi'-intelligent living creatures in the fucking universe...... Seriously people how fucking vain are we to think that if there is truly a God, that He would put only us halfway, inbred, horrible at relations, warmongering asshholes in the entire fucking place. And if I am right about extra-terrestrials how many do you think have heard of Jesus or Mohammed? None, I'm willing to bet.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 12, 2012)

I was raised in a small, old school church. No instruments were allowed. The preacher could not even used PA equipment. It was sort of like the whiter version of baptist.
So my parents made me go, every Sunday. I had a fear of commiting sins. I prayed, all that.

When I was about 13 or 14 years old, in gym class one day, I heard this girl say something about there being no god. She said it like it was just the dead obvious. My jaw dropped. I had never even thought of it before. Like, wow. No god, huh?

Over a period of a few years i grew more and more skeptical. I soon found out that most of what is in the bible makes no sense, from a historical and scientific view. Without someone over my shoulder to give me a verse, or some bullshit explaining why my skeptic thought was wrong, it just sort of all came to light, quickly.

When I turned about 16, my parents told me I did not have to go if i did not want to, but I should. I haven't been to church since more than 1 or 2 times.

After not going to church for a few months, and using my brain a little bit, it was obvious to me that there was not a god.

If you live around a group of people telling you that there are chickens living inside your feet that will come out and kill you on your 16th birthday, you'll believe because it is all you know.

One thing i can say that was great about the church i grew up in was that it was a great community offering support for the elder people in my small town. Not saying they were all good people. But they did help, except the obese ones (30ish% of them, at least).
We did things for them. Made sure they were doing alright, get them what they need, so on. That part, I took with me after dropping my "beliefs, faith, whatever". My neighbor is a late 70s widow. I take care of her yard and check up on her a couple times a week. Her kids do too, its not like I'm "taking care of her" or anything. I might not be doing that today had I not grown up in that church.

The guilt that was instilled into me about sex at the time i was going through puberty still has an effect on me to this day. My catholic wife, x10. 

&#8220;I thank God I was raised Catholic, so *s*ex will always be dirty.&#8221; John Waters


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 12, 2012)

april said:


> I don't attend church for this very reason, my spiritual beliefs are my own, why should i be told how and when to practice it. Fuck i hate all organized religion.
> 
> Even Katie holmes put her foot down..... lol


I'm sure you don't want to be sent to hell for eternity right?


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## cannabineer (Jul 12, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I'm sure you don't want to be sent to hell for eternity right?


... if Katie Holmes is there too? cn


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## Doer (Jul 12, 2012)

I know someone that went to Sea Org, speaking of Katie Holmes. This gal ended up confined in a mop cloest without much food or water, for days.

She had to pretend and then jump ship as soon as she could.


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## rpgdude (Jul 13, 2012)

HeartlandHank said:


> You know what the funniest thing is about religious folks?
> 
> You actually believe, that from the very beginning of time itself, you/your people were present AND the center of all life. From the beginning, to the end, it was all about you. Not only were you there and at the top of the pole from the beginning... but when the world will end is when you and your people leave it. Where do you go to? On to the after life for humans. To live forever. This place (Everything in existence, ever heard of a gigaparsec?) was made all just for you to hang out until it is time to go to an even better place that was also made just for you and yours.
> 
> this is for you.


They are an arrogant bunch. God will save me but that starving child just isn't worthy of some food. God will supply all my needs if I give the preacher my money and the preacher is beating his kids. <--Happened to my parents. Pastor got 11 years and the worst part is some of the congregation where bringing him there kids to "discipline" They are all crazy in one way or another.


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## Zaehet Strife (Jul 13, 2012)

Let your self go. 

If you can approach the world's complexities, both its glories and its horrors, with an attitude of humble curiosity, acknowledging that however deeply you have seen, you have only scratched the surface, you will find worlds within worlds, beauties you could not heretofore imagine, and your own mundane preoccupations will shrink to proper size, not all that important in the greater scheme of things. 

Keeping that awestruck vision of the world ready to hand while dealing with the demands of daily living is no easy exercise, but it is definitely worth the effort, for if you can stay centered, and engaged, you will find the hard choices easier, the right words will come to you when you need them, and you will be a better person. 

That, I propose, is the secret to spirituality, and it has nothing at all to do with believing in an immortal soul, or in anything supernatural.


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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 13, 2012)

MHA1990 said:


> When I was about seven I realized how similar it sounded to the fairy tales I had been hearing most of my life, I realized how fucking stupid a talking snake sounded. Honestly, the bible is pile of racist, sexist horse shit written by old white men who pretended to be under the guise of an all mighty being to gain power and influence.
> I personally don't believe in god, and have nothing against people who believe in god, as my beef is with religious institutions. Spirituality itself isn't the problem, its when people go around parading their beliefs asking non-believers or people of different religions why their such idiots.


The Jews aren't white...


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## Doer (Jul 13, 2012)

No one is white.


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## cannabineer (Jul 13, 2012)




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## Shannon Alexander (Jul 13, 2012)

I have seen lots of people that I would say are truly white...


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## Zaehet Strife (Jul 13, 2012)

Polar bears! Polar bears are white!!!!!!!!


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## rpgdude (Jul 13, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Polar bears! Polar bears are white!!!!!!!!


 Actually there skin is black. . On topic and may have been posted before but here it is. http://youtu.be/6RT6rL2UroE


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## drolove (Jul 13, 2012)

never lost my religion. was was never dumb enough to believe a old story book.


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## april (Jul 13, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> ... if Katie Holmes is there too? cn


Either or as long as Tom Cruise goes back to the mothership i'll be cool....or a tad warm...lol


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## Zaehet Strife (Jul 13, 2012)

Their fur is white..... damnit....


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## rpgdude (Jul 13, 2012)

drolove said:


> never lost my religion. was was never dumb enough to believe a old story book.


Fuck you! I was a believer for most of my life and I am not dumb. I was brain washed from birth! My mother gave me to God on the alter at a full Baptist church. She had two girls and prayed for a son, she said "God if you grant me a son I will give him to you" and she did. Arrogant bitch! Like that's up to her! Fuck her to! Thankfully I love to read and I learned my way out of it with a little help from my now dead sister. Shit installed as a child can be powerful, especially when combined with hours of meditation/prayer and sometimes weeks of fasting. You "will" have visions and hallucinations that seem as real as any thing. I once watched Stephen the martyr be stoned to death in a "vision" after fasting and praying for week. Brainwashing+lack of food+exhaustion+deep meditation is an amazing drug!


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 13, 2012)

drolove said:


> never lost my religion. was was never dumb enough to believe a old story book.


Personally, I don't believe religious people are dumb. I also don't believe that they grew faith out of stupidity. They were just tricked by fear and rewards. 

But that's just my opinion. And I believe it may change soon. I typed out a response that contradicted myself so I deleted it.. I proved myself wrong lol.. Here's my original post 

Religious people are not dumb simply because they have faith in something that cannot be proven. They were just tricked into believing nonsense by their friends and family. Is a little kid stupid because he trusted his parents when they told him santa is real?

Yes, that kid _is_ stupid lol. Has that kid ever seen magic played out? No. Then he shouldn't believe some fat dude pops into people's houses to deliver toys all around the world in one night. So I guess religious people should understand that their beliefs aren't the truth.


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## Blue Wizard (Jul 13, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Their fur is white..... damnit....


Their fur is clear. 

http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/polar_bear.htm


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## rpgdude (Jul 13, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Personally, I don't believe religious people are dumb. I also don't believe that they grew faith out of stupidity. They were just tricked by fear and rewards.
> 
> But that's just my opinion. And I believe it may change soon. I typed out a response that contradicted myself so I deleted it.. I proved myself wrong lol.. Here's my original post
> 
> ...


The reason you contradicted yourself is simple. You don't understand because you've never been there. The kid is stupid? He believes what the people who love him, whom he trust implicitly tell him. Another thing, they do see and feel things. Buddhist, Muslims, christens and devil worshipers alike feel what they describe as electricity, heat, tingling on the skin that can be seen as chill bumps. I watched benny hinn wave his coat and 900 people passed out in a wave. It was not fake in the sense that people fell willingly. Its the power of expatiation and suggestion and in the hands of a master hypnotist its powerful.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 13, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> The reason you contradicted yourself is simple. You don't understand because you've never been there. The kid is stupid? He believes what the people who love him, whom he trust implicitly tell him. Another thing, they do see and feel things. Buddhist, Muslims, christens and devil worshipers alike feel what they describe as electricity, heat, tingling on the skin that can be seen as chill bumps. I watched benny hinn wave his coat and 900 people passed out in a wave. It was not fake in the sense that people fell willingly. Its the power of expatiation and suggestion and in the hands of a master hypnotist its powerful.


I've been there. I've gotten chills from praying to my imaginary friend. That doesn't change my new opinion that religious people's beliefs stem from ignorance.. their beliefs are nonsense and stupid.. The only reason a child could believe in santa is if they don't have the critical thinking skills to question this fat guys magic powers.


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## Doer (Jul 13, 2012)

White printer paper? Can we agree to that standard? No one is white. Kinda pinkish, kinda blueish, mostly shades of tan. No genetic basis for race, has been found. 
Racial characteristics, skin color, nose and eyelid shapes are adptations based on longitude.


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## ActionHanks (Jul 13, 2012)

Im kind of disturbed by religion

When I was 4-5, if you took two glasses of equal measurement, say both 50 liters, one wide, and one tall, I would tell you that the taller glass contains more liquid. If you asked me the same question when i was 6 or 7 I would tell you that they both contain the same amount of liquid. Cognitive development.

LETS TALK ABOUT SOME GENERAL COLLEGE PSYCHOLOGY YALL
Jean Piaget, Cognitive psychologist

"Cognition develops in all children in the same sequence of stages.Each child goes through the stages in the same order, and no stage can be missed out - although some individuals may never attain the later stages."


 Cognitive Stage of Development Key Feature Research StudySensorimotor
0 - 2 yrs.Object PermanenceBlanket & Ball StudyPreoperational
2 - 7 yrs.EgocentrismThree MountainsConcrete Operational
7 &#8211; 11 yrs.ConservationConservation of NumberFormal Operational
11yrs +Manipulate ideas in head, e.g. Abstract Reasoning

 

I am a "spiritual" person, I believe in the science, the universe, conservation of matter (including our cognitive ego) and other physical laws, etc
But I dont know what the "answer" is, nor do I really care. I feel like religious people are stuck in the concrete operational stage, religion and the whole fear of death/unknown plays such a large part in their lives that it never allows them to think about or experience things outside of their comfort zone or knowledge basin. Its fucking sad, why would you ever want to introduce religion to your children is beyond me. Im not going to tell my kids what they can believe however.

Blah blah blah, wall of text

HOW did i lose my religion? I turned 12, and from that day forth I for some reason just realized it was more than likely a sham, and or actually unimportant in the grand scheme of my life.


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## cannabineer (Jul 13, 2012)

Blue Wizard said:


> Their fur is clear.
> 
> http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/polar_bear.htm


As is the snow all around them.  cn


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 13, 2012)

ActionHanks said:


> Im kind of disturbed by religion
> 
> When I was 4-5, if you took two glasses of equal measurement, say both 50 liters, one wide, and one tall, I would tell you that the taller glass contains more liquid. If you asked me the same question when i was 6 or 7 I would tell you that they both contain the same amount of liquid. Cognitive development.
> 
> ...


What's the name/study that provided that chart?


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## ActionHanks (Jul 13, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> What's the name/study that provided that chart?


 Jean Piaget's theory of cognitive development

It goes pretty deep, Im a geology/engineering dual degree kid, but psychology was my first/original science orientated love. Just dont tell my professors


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## rpgdude (Jul 13, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I've been there. I've gotten chills from praying to my imaginary friend. That doesn't change my new opinion that religious people's beliefs stem from ignorance.. their beliefs are nonsense and stupid.. The only reason a child could believe in santa is if they don't have the critical thinking skills to question this fat guys magic powers.


 Ignorance and stupidaty are very difrent. Chills are something you get from a powerful singer, Visions and hallucinations are very different from a chill. You do not know you assume you know. Beliefs don't stem from one single thing but from many, such as the fear of death, the desire to see lost loved ones again, a need to feel like you have a purpose or that you are better then others and also delusion. When a belief is pounded into you from childhood it can make you strap on a bomb and blow yourself up. That's' not ignorance its brainwashing and unless you've been there you have no clue how strong it can be that makes you the lucky and ignorant one.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 13, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> Ignorance and stupidaty are very difrent. Chills are something you get from a powerful singer, Visions and hallucinations are very different from a chill. You do not know you assume you know. Beliefs don't stem from one single thing but from many, such as the fear of death, the desire to see lost loved ones again, a need to feel like you have a purpose or that you are better then others and also delusion. When a belief is pounded into you from childhood it can make you strap on a bomb and blow yourself up. That's' not ignorance its brainwashing and unless you've been there you have no clue how strong it can be that makes you the lucky and ignorant one.


Again, I have been there. Who are you to tell me I haven't gone through what you're explaining? 

I never said ignorance and stupidity are the same thing.. If I thought they were the same thing, why would I use both? That's going off topic though. It requires either stupidity or ignorance or both to believe in such nonsense fairy tales. I don't care if you were "brainwashed". If you can't think for yourself, then you don't have critical thinking skills.. Which was my original point. 

A kid is ignorant if he can't see that santa isn't real.. The kid also doesn't have critical thinking skills. IMO the childs beliefs in santa are dumb whether or not he was brainwashed into believing so. 

I understand the effect religion has on people. It's horrible. But it doesn't change my opinion that it takes the believer to have low critical thinking skills to believe in fairy tales. 

Of course this is all in my opinion..


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## OGEvilgenius (Jul 14, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Should be an interesting, and hopefully educating, thread. I see a lot of people claim they used to be atheists but saw the light and now they're a believer. Hopefully this thread sheds a little light on why that's an absurd statement to make, and why and how we each reached our own conclusions to nonbelief in a god.
> 
> I'll start...
> 
> ...


Nothing unbelievable has been presented either. You are young, I suggest keeping an open mind about things. You cannot prove God does not exist. Just like a believer cannot prove he or she or it does.


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## OGEvilgenius (Jul 14, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Kaendar, you must understand, from an atheist's perspective, which you don't have any personal experience with, it is absurd to claim you used to be an atheist and now are a believer. If you were a true atheist, for the correct reasons, and not just reveling in teenage angst, you would understand what I mean...
> 
> You can't, I repeat, CAN'T (as I have yet to meet someone) go from atheism to belief. You can't do it because to become a believer after reaching atheism for the correct reasons would require absolute proof of a deity. Beyond absolute proof, which would negate the concept of faith, an atheist can't be persuaded.
> 
> Disagree? Provide evidence for one.


Well, when I was much younger I chose to believe that God wasn't real. Since then I have decided differently. I still think churches are mostly full of assholes attempting to control folks through whatever means possible, but I'm not sure it's relevant to the discussion of is there a God or not.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 14, 2012)

OGEvilgenius said:


> Nothing unbelievable has been presented either..


Ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha











AHAHAHAHAhAHHAHAHA


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## rpgdude (Jul 14, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Again, I have been there. Who are you to tell me I haven't gone through what you're explaining?
> 
> I never said ignorance and stupidity are the same thing.. If I thought they were the same thing, why would I use both? That's going off topic though. It requires either stupidity or ignorance or both to believe in such nonsense fairy tales. I don't care if you were "brainwashed". If you can't think for yourself, then you don't have critical thinking skills.. Which was my original point.
> 
> ...


Your dead wrong. I wish you where not but many well informed, intelligent people believe in the garbage. All types of investigative professions are full of critical thinkers that believe the stuff. Some scientist with IQ's in the 200+ believe in God. Sorry man but there are many very intelligent critical thinking believers, its a part of them like brushing your teeth only more hart felt. And no I don't believe for a second that you have any clue in hell what its like to grow up in an environment where people talk about what an honor it would be to die a martyr. Your opinion proves it.


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## OGEvilgenius (Jul 14, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again, you are but a child. I read your post. You aren't being logical (nor did it seem you were being very logical all through your decision making process in that post but anyway...) here at all, sorry. You can't prove God doesn't exist.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 14, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> Your dead wrong. I wish you where not but many well informed, intelligent people believe in the garbage. All types of investigative professions are full of critical thinkers that believe the stuff. Some scientist with IQ's in the 200+ believe in God. Sorry man but there are many very intelligent critical thinking believers, its a part of them like brushing your teeth only more hart felt. And no I don't believe for a second that you have any clue in hell what its like to grow up in an environment where people talk about what an honor it would be to die a martyr. Your opinion proves it.


I always say that religious people aren't stupid. I still stick by that. But "faith" stems from stupidity and ignorance. We're all stupid, and certain views stem from our stupidity. I've met a few really smart people that believe things like being gay is bad.. Or have weird feelings towards certain races.. They're not stupid, but some of their views sure as hell are.

It's the same with religious people. They can be smart or dumb, but believing in blowing yourself up for the better good or strongly believing that we came from ribs is.. well.. stupid. 

Maybe they have critical thinking skills.. Which just leaves them with stupidity. They made a stupid decision to follow something that is obviously not real. 

Even then, I still wouldn't say they have very good critical thinking skills if they believe in such nonsense. Do you know any intelligent critical thinkers that believe in santa? Why not? It's because it takes very basic CTS (critical thinking skills) to say that santa isn't real. It also requires CTS to say that most religions are just nonsense. If you strongly believe we came from ribs or other stuff like that, you MUST have low CTS. 

Can you name me one intelligent person with an IQ score of 200+ that believes there was a talking snake? How about one that believes there was a great flood? Sorry for mainly picking on christianity, but I'm sure you still understand my point. 

So you're telling me that I never felt what it was like to be a strong believer? Haha that's funny dude.. Funny guy.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 14, 2012)

OGEvilgenius said:


> Again, you are but a child. I read your post. You aren't being logical (nor did it seem you were being very logical all through your decision making process in that post but anyway...) here at all, sorry. You can't prove God doesn't exist.


Hey come over to TX.. I wanna take you on a magic dragon ride to the moon where I will give you $1,000,000. 
What you don't believe me? Come on bro, what proof do you have against me? Just come on down.. Seriously. You can't prove I'm wrong so just have faith man.. Faith.


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## OGEvilgenius (Jul 14, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Hey come over to TX.. I wanna take you on a magic dragon ride to the moon where I will give you $1,000,000.
> What you don't believe me? Come on bro, what proof do you have against me? Just come on down.. Seriously. You can't prove I'm wrong so just have faith man.. Faith.


Your logical fallacy really doesn't help your position. Again, you're a kid. My advise is to not take strong positions on subjects that you absolutely cannot say anything factual about one way or the other. Is there a God? Maybe not, but I choose to believe otherwise. And it isn't because I'm illogical. Einstein wasn't illogical either, yet he chose to believe. Because it's a choice, it's not something based on logic or reason. Your belief that God absolutely does not exist is just as religious and dogmatic as someone who chooses the opposite belief.

Further, it is self absorbed ego driven *beliefs* that lead one to think they know the answer to such questions.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 14, 2012)

OGEvilgenius said:


> Your logical fallacy really doesn't help your position. Again, you're a kid. My advise is to not take strong positions on subjects that you absolutely cannot say anything factual about one way or the other. Is there a God? Maybe not, but I choose to believe otherwise. And it isn't because I'm illogical. Einstein wasn't illogical either, yet he chose to believe. Because it's a choice, it's not something based on logic or reason. Your belief that God absolutely does not exist is just as religious and dogmatic as someone who chooses the opposite belief.
> 
> Further, it is self absorbed ego driven *beliefs* that lead one to think they know the answer to such questions.


I don't know if he does or doesn't exist.. I do know that saying it's fact that he exists and that believing things like talking snakes requires an illogical mindset.. 

You're right, it isn't something based on logic or reason. But when it impacts the world the way religion does, it sure as hell should be based on logic and reason. 

I never said I knew the answers.. lol.. I laughed because you said "nothing unbelievable has been presented either"... AHAHAHAHA.. Sorry that makes me laugh every time.


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## OGEvilgenius (Jul 14, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I don't know if he does or doesn't exist.. I do know that saying it's fact that he exists and that believing things like talking snakes requires an illogical mindset..
> 
> You're right, it isn't something based on logic or reason. But when it impacts the world the way religion does, it sure as hell should be based on logic and reason.
> 
> I never said I knew the answers.. lol.. I laughed because you said "nothing unbelievable has been presented either"... AHAHAHAHA.. Sorry that makes me laugh every time.


You say talking snakes are crazy, but you didn't live in those times. Take such claims with grains of salt, but never claim to know the truth. 

Folks who take everything literally are obviously misguided. Not everything is meant to be literal. I say God does exist, not just because I feel that way, but also because of some life experiences and a whole slew of things happening that just seemed to line up perfectly - like it was meant to be. But I realize this is just a belief. I prefer to make my religion sports, where it's less dangerous and people get less angry over disagreements. What I see from you is pointless insults to large groups of people that may have some difficulty justifying their beliefs, but also are beliefs that are just as difficult to hold in question for many of the same reasons you or I cannot say for certain the existence of God.

Most things we choose to belief are taken largely on faith. You have faith scientists are not misleading you and did not miss something, etc etc.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 14, 2012)

OGEvilgenius said:


> You say talking snakes are crazy, but you didn't live in those times. Take such claims with grains of salt, but never claim to know the truth.
> 
> Folks who take everything literally are obviously misguided. Not everything is meant to be literal. I say God does exist, not just because I feel that way, but also because of some life experiences and a whole slew of things happening that just seemed to line up perfectly - like it was meant to be. But I realize this is just a belief. I prefer to make my religion sports, where it's less dangerous and people get less angry over disagreements. What I see from you is pointless insults to large groups of people that may have some difficult to justify beliefs, but also are beliefs that are just as difficult to hold in question for many of the same reasons you or I cannot say for certain the existence of God.
> 
> Most things we choose to belief are taken largely on faith. You have faith scientists are not misleading you and did not miss something, etc etc.


Believing in talking snakes _is_ crazy. Think about it.. When was the last time you witnessed a talking snake? 

Why do you say god exists? Have you ever seen him? Can you bring him/her over to my house so that I can believe? 

I see large groups of people turning on each other over religion. Many times it leads to murder.. Yes murder. I think that's stupid. Understand that I'm insulting their beliefs and faith. I'm not insulting the person. Like I've said many times before, many religious followers are intelligent.. That doesn't mean that their beliefs aren't nonsense. 

I don't need to believe or have faith in science since science only deals with facts.. I can disagree with science and say that gravity isn't real.. That wouldn't matter though since science would still be right. It requires no faith.. Religion on the other hand, well that requires HUGE leaps of faith.


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## OGEvilgenius (Jul 14, 2012)

Well, I will submit to you, that your position is absolutely no different than the guys position who vehemently beliefs in talking snakes existing thousands of years ago. Good luck with it.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 14, 2012)

OGEvilgenius said:


> Well, I will submit to you, that your position is absolutely no different than the guys position who vehemently beliefs in talking snakes existing thousands of years ago. Good luck with it.


Ummmm......


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 14, 2012)

OGEvilgenius said:


> Nothing unbelievable has been presented either. You are young, I suggest keeping an open mind about things. You cannot prove God does not exist. Just like a believer cannot prove he or she or it does.



You're right, I can't prove a god doesn't exist any more than a theist can prove one does. But why should we automatically believe unprovable claims? If you consider the implications, it would just be too difficult and too time consuming to automatically assume every claim is correct without testing it first, not to mention dangerous, wouldn't you agree?

Carl Sagan wrote about this in his book _A Demon Haunted World;
_
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

He explains the implications much better than I could, give that a look to understand why the correct default to belief is none at all.



OGEvilgenius said:


> Well, when I was much younger I chose to believe that God wasn't real. Since then I have decided differently.



How did you 'choose' to believe something wasn't real? 



rpgdude said:


> Your dead wrong. I wish you where not but many well informed, intelligent people believe in the garbage. All types of investigative professions are full of critical thinkers that believe the stuff. Some scientist with IQ's in the 200+ believe in God. Sorry man but there are many very intelligent critical thinking believers, its a part of them like brushing your teeth only more hart felt. And no I don't believe for a second that you have any clue in hell what its like to grow up in an environment where people talk about what an honor it would be to die a martyr. Your opinion proves it.



I know many intelligent people, much more intelligent and educated than I am, who claim to have a belief in God. That doesn't mean anything. Are we to believe the smartest people we know have the best, most informed, up to date, beliefs of anyone? That's an obvious fallacy that shouldn't even need to be pointed out.

Isaac Newton, the motherfucker who came up with calculus, believed in alchemy. Christopher Columbus (and everyone else at the time) believed the world was flat. Smart people, simply put, can be misinformed, and believing they have all the answers at any given moment is a logical fallacy (argument from authority). 

Consider Obama's stance on religion, the war on drugs, the middle east, most things...



OGEvilgenius said:


> Most things we choose to belief are taken largely on faith. You have faith scientists are not misleading you and did not miss something, etc etc.



True, but it's different from the faith organized religions require, you must admit..


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## mindphuk (Jul 14, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Can you name me one intelligent person with an IQ score of 200+ that believes there was a talking snake? How about one that believes there was a great flood? Sorry for mainly picking on christianity, but I'm sure you still understand my point.


I would challenge him to name one person with a verified IQ over 200, can't use google. He's making shit up, 200+ IQ is virtually unheard of. People like Newton and Maxwell were probably close but considering that there is no standardization for IQ tests, there may be some subjects that do test that high but would say that most modern persons with IQs over 200 probably are not believers. 



rpgdude said:


> *Sorry man but there are many very intelligent critical thinking believers*


Let's hear about them. "Many" is a relative term. How come there is a direct negative correlation that the more educated and intelligent a person, the less likely they will be a believer? Believers come in all sorts. The smarter one is, the less likely they are to believe in literal truths contained in religious books and the smartest people get away from believing in anything supernatural. An unprovable god concept is a very difficult harness for even smart people to give up considering how we generally grow up and the persistence in which this belief is perpetuated through society, yet many still do give it up. 



OGE said:


> *Again, you are but a child. I read your post. You aren't being logical (nor did it seem you were being very logical all through your decision making process in that post but anyway...) here at all, sorry. You can't prove God doesn't exist*


Considering how you seem to be critical of Hep because he is unwilling to believe in some unprovable thing makes me think you are the immature one, regardless of your actual age. Not being able to prove something does not exist is not a valid reason to accept it as even possible. You should brush up on your logic and fallacies before posting here. The number of times FSM and Russel's teapot has been discussed on this forum is pretty high so people are familiar with it and you won't be able to convince anyone by using this canard.


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## mindphuk (Jul 14, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> True, but it's different from the faith organized religions require, you must admit..


It not usually considered faith either but confidence. It's only called faith when believers attempt to make this particular equivocation. A tired an worn out game. They should get together and get a list of arguments that fail one the most basic logical levels. Of course, that would leave them with little to discuss.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 14, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> It not usually considered faith either but confidence. It's only called faith when believers attempt to make this particular equivocation. A tired an worn out game. They should get together and get a list of arguments that fail one the most basic logical levels. Of course, that would leave them with little to discuss.



Maybe somebody like us should do it. Ally ourselves with the creationist/religious movement, infiltrate their inner circle, inform them of what is actually going on. I know you are smart enough, the real challenge would be repressing the "OMFG!" meter, but I have faith in you! You have more experience on this Earth than I do, I'll play sidekick, I'll be the Riley to your Ben, you get in there and be like "REALITY!", they'll be like "awww..". 

WIN.


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## Heisenberg (Jul 14, 2012)

OGEvilgenius said:


> You say talking snakes are crazy, but you didn't live in those times. Take such claims with grains of salt, but never claim to know the truth.
> 
> Folks who take everything literally are obviously misguided. Not everything is meant to be literal. I say God does exist, not just because I feel that way, but also because of some life experiences and a whole slew of things happening that just seemed to line up perfectly - like it was meant to be. But I realize this is just a belief. I prefer to make my religion sports, where it's less dangerous and people get less angry over disagreements. What I see from you is pointless insults to large groups of people that may have some difficulty justifying their beliefs, but also are beliefs that are just as difficult to hold in question for many of the same reasons you or I cannot say for certain the existence of God.
> 
> Most things we choose to belief are taken largely on faith. You have faith scientists are not misleading you and did not miss something, etc etc.


I appreciate your genuine attempts at discussion, however you seem to be misinformed on a few things. I bring them up because you have used them as strong talking points.

Einstein did not believe in a personal supernatural god. As you can imagine this is something that comes up a lot around here. He believed in Spinoza's god, which is an acknowledgment of profound order and structure outside of humans.

Critical thinking is a process which follows rigid rules. These rules prevent the conclusion of God from being a critical conclusion, therefore if there are critical thinkers who believe in God, they aren't applying these critical thinking skills to the subject, or else they openly admit they have nothing but faith. IQ has nothing to do with it. If these rules are broken we no longer have critical thinking, we have pseudoscience. Critical thinking, like science, is completely transparent; the process is open for all to check the work, which means no faith is required in the scientists themselves to accept the scientific answers provided.

The burden of proof always falls on the person making the claim. It is completely irrelevant that I am unable to disprove god's existence, just as irrelevant as the fact that I can not disprove a giant unicorn living in the sun. Name for me one other area of serious knowledge in which we assume something exists for no other reason than we can't prove it doesn't. I don't understand why you feel the lack of disproof is anything to be glib about. And keep in mind that while we can not disprove a supernatural deity, we can disprove many of the human proposed incarnations of such a deity. 

Lastly, you seem to confuse the various contextual meanings of the word faith. Having faith that the sun will rise tomorrow is very different than having faith in a supernatural father. The belief that the sun will rise is based on past performance, study, and understanding of it's patterns, IOW, evidence. Religious faith is never stronger than when we believe without any evidence at all, making it a completely different concept, and unfair to conflate the two during debate.


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## Doer (Jul 14, 2012)

Since the sun has to rise for you, no one else matters, it is a matter faith if you will see it. Or not. But, that is just the moment to moment faith in the next breath.

As real as this seems folks, we could find this was all a dream. Not a puny dream-dream, but, the extra strength, somewhat measureable, Reality Dream. All my forum mates were no more real than everyone else of the so-called Real Actors in my Life.

So, no way to prove for ourselves that the Sun will rise tomorrow. So, in that sense everything is faith. We can't prove or dis-prove the concept of diety. We can object to any and all attempts for difinition. And we don't have to reject the idea of diety out of hand, either. No proof. And it is an ancient conjecture, made quite interesting by the practicallly univeral acceptance, and seemingly infinite strife of disagreeement in details.


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## cannabineer (Jul 14, 2012)

OGEvilgenius said:


> You say talking snakes are crazy, but you didn't live in those times. Take such claims with grains of salt, but never claim to know the truth.
> 
> Folks who take everything literally are obviously misguided. Not everything is meant to be literal. I say God does exist, not just because I feel that way, but also because of some life experiences and a whole slew of things happening that just seemed to line up perfectly - like it was meant to be. But I realize this is just a belief. I prefer to make my religion sports, where it's less dangerous and people get less angry over disagreements. What I see from you is pointless insults to large groups of people that may have some difficulty justifying their beliefs, but also are beliefs that are just as difficult to hold in question for many of the same reasons you or I cannot say for certain the existence of God.
> 
> Most things we choose to belief are taken largely on faith. You have faith scientists are not misleading you and did not miss something, etc etc.


I'll put in my 2¢ about the last sentence.

There is one basic difference between a traditional faith and a faith that scientists are not negligent andor misleading.
The entire body of science is open-source. Anyone can potentially rebuild the ladder of reason and observation that led from Start to a given scientific theory or principle. Often, people doing just that uncover a flaw or bring some other item of real value to the edifice. 
None of this holds for any of the scriptural traditions, Abrahamic or otherwise. There's no internal check protocol. One is given a book and simply told "Read." cn


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 14, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Hey come over to TX.. I wanna take you on a magic dragon ride to the moon where I will give you $1,000,000.
> What you don't believe me? Come on bro, what proof do you have against me? Just come on down.. Seriously. You can't prove I'm wrong so just have faith man.. Faith.


LOL Hep your fucking clown man, I love posts like this where the true dimwit comes out, its just a tab bit more funny than the posts where you try hard to act smart.


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## MellowFarmer (Jul 15, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Believing in talking snakes _is_ crazy. Think about it.. When was the last time you witnessed a talking snake? Why do you say god exists? Have you ever seen him? Can you bring him/her over to my house so that I can believe? I see large groups of people turning on each other over religion. Many times it leads to murder.. Yes murder. I think that's stupid. Understand that I'm insulting their beliefs and faith. I'm not insulting the person. Like I've said many times before, many religious followers are intelligent.. That doesn't mean that their beliefs aren't nonsense. I don't need to believe or have faith in science since science only deals with facts.. I can disagree with science and say that gravity isn't real.. That wouldn't matter though since science would still be right. It requires no faith.. Religion on the other hand, well that requires HUGE leaps of faith.


 Talking snakes exist! Remember how that slimy snake talked Eve into biting the apple of knowledge? It's in the very first chapter of the Bible, the Word of the Invisible Man in Sky and everything in that book is true because they say it is and just because no one has actually talked to a snake in 1000s of years it happened.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> LOL Hep your fucking clown man, I love posts like this where the true dimwit comes out, its just a tab bit more funny than the posts where you try hard to act smart.


Hep's post is a reference to Sagan's_ Demon Haunted World_. 

Would you tell that to Carl Sagan?


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> LOL Hep your fucking clown man, I love posts like this where the true dimwit comes out, its just a tab bit more funny than the posts where you try hard to act smart.


Here let me seriously be smart now..

We are all gods. We are young ignorant gods. We will keep on growing more knowledge and wisdom throughout eternity. All science is a bunch of nonsense since it doesn't go along with my beliefs. 

Now I'm smart.. Yay!!


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 15, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Hep's post is a reference to Sagan's_ Demon Haunted World_. Would you tell that to Carl Sagan?


Really? Hes a great man but shame on him if those were his exact words, it sounded a lot like arrogant teenager that thinks hes a man and has life figured out lol.


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## Trolling (Jul 15, 2012)

Explain yourself then, he does have a point. The bible just says stuff and so is he, only difference is it's past down from generation and he is just saying stuff to make an example, proof says alot.


Not sure why this god/faith discussion is still going, you either believe or you don't, move on already. People die because of stupid people, move on.


/end thread


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## MellowFarmer (Jul 15, 2012)

Doer said:


> Since the sun has to rise for you, no one else matters, it is a matter faith if you will see it. Or not. But, that is just the moment to moment faith in the next breath.
> 
> As real as this seems folks, we could find this was all a dream. Not a puny dream-dream, but, the extra strength, somewhat measureable, Reality Dream. All my forum mates were no more real than everyone else of the so-called Real Actors in my Life.
> 
> So, no way to prove for ourselves that the Sun will rise tomorrow. So, in that sense everything is faith. We can't prove or dis-prove the concept of diety. We can object to any and all attempts for difinition. And we don't have to reject the idea of diety out of hand, either. No proof. And it is an ancient conjecture, made quite interesting by the practicallly univeral acceptance, and seemingly infinite strife of disagreeement in details.


Mos def told Bill Maher and Christopher Hitchens that everyone has a religion (there's is not having one) so here would be mine: the church of Bill Hicks

All Matter is mearly energy condensed to one vibration - we are all one consciousness experiencing life subjectively;

Bill Hicks and I'm dead now.  Its time for a new philosophy, folks. One based on yes, the principles of Jesus, which were love your brother as yourself, because you know what? He is yourself. Literally. Ha ha ha ha ha ha! We are literally all one. OK. The body is an illusion, you see, cos God, doesnt create things that can be destroyedcos hes God, dig it? We have miscreated this world. Its a dream. Whats that old song - Row, row, row, your boat, gently down the stream, merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream? See, we knew it as children. We forgot it since.


 Bill Hicks


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## MellowFarmer (Jul 15, 2012)

Trolling said:


> Explain yourself then, he does have a point. The bible just says stuff and so is he, only difference is it's past down from generation and he is just saying stuff to make an example, proof says alot.
> 
> 
> Not sure why this god/faith discussion is still going, you either believe or you don't, move on already. _People die because of stupid people, move on._
> ...


Didn't you go and answer your own question? _People die because of stupid people, move on._


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## Trolling (Jul 15, 2012)

That's the reason why I don't get why it's still going, just running in circles.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Really? Hes a great man but shame on him if those were his exact words, it sounded a lot like arrogant teenager that thinks hes a man and has life figured out lol.


I was gonna clap and say "clever", but you don't deserve it. That insult has been used sooo many times by so many different members that it kinda wore off. Got anything new for me?


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 15, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Here let me seriously be smart now..We are all gods. We are young ignorant gods. We will keep on growing more knowledge and wisdom throughout eternity. All science is a bunch of nonsense since it doesn't go along with my beliefs. Now I'm smart.. Yay!!


Damnit Hep! I was expecting a long winded response of you trying to prove something your not lol Maybe this time around =p. I love how you are bipolar with your beliefs, first you were a blind crusader, then militant atheist, that was quite a twist. Some people do some soul searching when they drop such beliefs but I guess its difficult to come up with your own answers when you got a group of people telling you whats what, kinda like when you were a kid and learning about...You know what... Never mind lol No need to bring that up. Im just glad you seem comfortable with what you "know", beliefs do that for ya.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Damnit Hep! I was expecting a long winded response of you trying to prove something your not lol Maybe this time around =p. I love how you are bipolar with your beliefs, first you were a blind crusader, then militant atheist, that was quite a twist. Some people do some soul searching when they drop such beliefs but I guess its difficult to come up with your own answers when you got a group of people telling you whats what, kinda like when you were a kid and learning about...You know what... Never mind lol No need to bring that up. Im just glad you seem comfortable with what you "know", beliefs do that for ya.


....Said the nutjob that believes we're young gods.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 15, 2012)

Trolling said:


> Explain yourself then, he does have a point. The bible just says stuff and so is he, only difference is it's past down from generation and he is just saying stuff to make an example, proof says alot.
> 
> 
> Not sure why this god/faith discussion is still going, you either believe or you don't, move on already. People die because of stupid people, move on.
> ...


You either kill in the name of your god or you don't.. Meh.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 15, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> ....Said the nutjob that believes we're young gods.


Oooo more harsh retaliation with the same insult that he started out with instead of an argument lol this broken record is telling me to be original, Im glad Im making things clear to you at least. Defend yourself with another insult, you parrot, or attack my beliefs some more because you know im right about your reasoning process.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Oooo more harsh retaliation with the same insult that he started out with instead of an argument lol this broken record is telling me to be original, Im glad Im making things clear to you at least. Defend yourself with another insult, you parrot, or attack my beliefs some more because you know im right about your reasoning process.


.... Said the nutjob that believes we're young gods.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 15, 2012)

I love when you first started this quest for truth. You said critical thinking has helped improve your "spelling" lol Im sure if you knew the definition of literacy back then, you would of used that word instead.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I love when you first started this quest for truth. You said critical thinking has helped improve your "spelling" lol Im sure if you knew the definition of literacy back then, you would of used that word instead.


Getting harder to insult me? It's ok man, you're just a young god for now. Soon you'll be as powerful as my unicorn.


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## Trolling (Jul 15, 2012)

O my god, this forum rocks!


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 15, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Getting harder to insult me? It's ok man, you're just a young god for now. Soon you'll be as powerful as my unicorn.


LOL Says the nutjob whos on repeat... Hep will forever be told what to think by a group of people that he appeals to, poor fellow thinks that its him that came to the conclusion that hes now at.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> LOL Says the nutjob whos on repeat... Hep will forever be told what to think by a group of people that he appeals to, poor fellow thinks that its him that came to the conclusion that hes now at.


Funny, most people would call the person who believes we're gods that aren't mature a nutjob. But not you, nope. You call the person who gives an honest "I don't know" to questions he doesn't know the answer to a nutjob.

I believe we have wasted enough space in this thread for now. If you want to come up with more petty attacks, PM me and I'd be happy to show you how your beliefs are whack. Later.

Edit: Hell, you can even insult me in MY thread (not pads).. "stuff..things..ideas". It should serve me some pointless entertainment.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 15, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Funny, most people would call the person who believes we're gods that aren't mature a nutjob. But not you, nope. You call the person who gives an honest "I don't know" to questions he doesn't know the answer to a nutjob.
> 
> I believe we have wasted enough space in this thread for now. If you want to come up with more petty attacks, PM me and I'd be happy to show you how your beliefs are whack. Later.


Awe cute, your pretending you dont have beliefs. You BELIEVE there is no god, Hep, dont lie. Thats how you were raised, you were raised to believe what people tell you, raised to be in a labeled group. You were a kid, accepted the first explanation of life that was given to you, kept that ridiculous explanation for a while until you finally caught on. Dropped, then it was almost like you were a kid again, fresh mind! But sadly, people came and told you whats what, and you accepted it, just repeated the process with no original thought... Im quite fine with keeping the discussion here, thanks =) unless this is the last word.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 15, 2012)

I'm not sure what you're getting at, you're attempting to apply some kind of false negative correlation to the application of knowledge, the same which you yourself use to understand reality. The way we know things is by learning from others. If you grew up in this world never having any contact with humans, you would remain feral;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child

Generally within communities of social animals, we learn from those we befriend, trust, respect.. Which would be my guess why not many people learn much from you. 

Anyway, like I said, that negative correlation is false, you haven't demonstrated how it's better or worse to gain knowledge by yourself or using resources outside yourself. But I know I probably couldn't come up with calculus myself like Isaac Newton did, and I probably couldn't build a car or invent vaccines... So already we see that if people had to each start from the very beginning, only learning from themselves, we likely wouldn't be very far, probably not even at the top of the food chain.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 15, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> I'm not sure what you're getting at, you're attempting to apply some kind of false negative correlation to the application of knowledge, the same which you yourself use to understand reality. The way we know things is by learning from others. If you grew up in this world never having any contact with humans, you would remain feral;
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child
> 
> ...


About time someone stepped in for the kid, that was getting ROUGH lol Your putting words in my mouth, Im aware of how knowledge is shared. Im just calling him intellectually lazy because each time he had a "fresh mind" when he was a kid and when he shook off his ridiculous belief, he accepted the first explanation that appealed to him that was the complete opposite of his former beliefs (which he was mad it) so it seemed like a perfect fit. Another well beaten path to follow and be committed to because people convinced him its the right way to go, no exploring this vast world of knowledge through his own perspective at all, just confined to that little path because thats what they told him to do... Poor guy... Its ironic he feels more independent than ever now. We can keep going, or you can let big boy Hep fight his own battles, he needs the confidence, you know. lol


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 15, 2012)

Well that's an error on your part, you're presuming to know intimate details about Hep's personal transition to nonbeliever which you have no way of knowing.

All you know about him is he doesn't believe in God.


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## Heisenberg (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> About time someone stepped in for the kid, that was getting ROUGH lol Your putting words in my mouth, Im aware of how knowledge is shared. Im just calling him intellectually lazy because each time he had a "fresh mind" when he was a kid and when he shook off his ridiculous belief, he accepted the first explanation that appealed to him that was the complete opposite of his former beliefs (which he was mad it) so it seemed like a perfect fit. Another well beaten path to follow and be committed to because people convinced him its the right way to go, no exploring this vast world of knowledge through his own perspective at all, just confined to that little path because thats what they told him to do... Poor guy... Its ironic he feels more independent than ever now. We can keep going, or you can let big boy Hep fight his own battles, he needs the confidence, you know. lol


If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way.
Persecution is used in theology, not in arithmetic, because in arithmetic there is knowledge, but in theology there is only opinion. So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants.
Bertrand Russell


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## MellowFarmer (Jul 15, 2012)

I tried really hard to believe I really did. Good ol catholic guilt had me saying many Hail Mary's * & our Father's in rependance of thinking which leads to questions about Faith which would land me for sure in the Lake of Fire!
It was in 1st grade at of course a catholic indoctrination center they changed No meat on Friday during Lent except fish? (I only guess because of the Jesus/Fish story) to No Meat... except if under 13 or elderly (I now wonder if maybe serviñg fish for lunch those Fridays was not cost effective for the school) My crazy aunts were playing Musical Aisles avoiding the new Lay Eucharist Ministers still distraught over the jesus' on earth allowing lay parishioners to accept real jesus' real body in their hands-w so many changes in absolute rules it was really hard! So I clung on hard until I learned about Evolution and even then it took some more years to voice it in my head on purpose. I am by pure definition a Christian hoping there was a man once walking around preaching Socialism and the Golden Rule. It's a real shame how the evil fucks of the world made it creepy to be called one.

ROFL I just now associated the sports slang hail mary


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## rpgdude (Jul 15, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I always say that religious people aren't stupid. I still stick by that. But "faith" stems from stupidity and ignorance. We're all stupid, and certain views stem from our stupidity. I've met a few really smart people that believe things like being gay is bad.. Or have weird feelings towards certain races.. They're not stupid, but some of their views sure as hell are.
> 
> It's the same with religious people. They can be smart or dumb, but believing in blowing yourself up for the better good or strongly believing that we came from ribs is.. well.. stupid.
> 
> ...


Again you are wrong. What your basically saying is that critical thinking skills prevent belief in the "supernatural" and that is simply not true. There are many people who would put us both to shame in critical thinking skills who believe in God. Also to say all faith stems from stupidity and ignorance is a stupid, ignorant and naive thing to believe. Many come from need. A need to see your loved ones again, a need to explain your existences, a need to justify war, a need for justice not seen in life and on and on and on. Its just not so simple. And the reason people don't go on believing in Santa is because its an accepted myth and we are told its bull shit. How many religious people do you know who believe in Santa? By your standard all none critical thinkers should believe in god, they don't, no more then all critical thinkers are atheist. You reasoning is flawed by a very narrow view of people. Religion, all religion is born from human nature and human nature is much more complex then your view allows. Any way we are not going to agree on this but we do agree its all bull shit so say your peace or not. Im tired of repeating myself. No hard feelings and all that. Later bro


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## Zaehet Strife (Jul 15, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way.
> Persecution is used in theology, not in arithmetic, because in arithmetic there is knowledge, but in theology there is only opinion. So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants.
> Bertrand Russell


This deserves to be posted again.


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## rpgdude (Jul 15, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> I would challenge him to name one person with a verified IQ over 200, can't use google. He's making shit up, 200+ IQ is virtually unheard of. People like Newton and Maxwell were probably close but considering that there is no standardization for IQ tests, there may be some subjects that do test that high but would say that most modern persons with IQs over 200 probably are not believers.


 Cant use google? Wtf? Am I suppose to remember the names of smart people who believe in God? Ok, John Jorge Jones has an IQ of 201 and believes in God, I challenge you to prove me wrong "no googleing". Now that we are past the stupid shit lets continue. OK so this is what I think. I think most High IQ people don't believe the nonsense, however some do and anyone with half a brain knows that. _My point was simple, critical thinking skill will not automatically stop someone from believing in the supernatural. The 200+iq is an exaggeration but the point is valid. __Smart people can be raised to believe in something ridiculous just like stupid people can be raised to call it all bull shit. _My father-n-law is a member of Mensa, His IQ is over 150 and he once said_ "Some people, even very smart people can be ruled by emotion_ and make an _emotional decision and "nothing" but an __emotional experience will change there minds._ He is 76 and has believed in god all his life. I don't argue with him about god because I would lose. He has his reasons to believe and it has nothing to do with critical thinking skills or IQ it was in his raising not his intelligence. I'm not going to Google something that is common sense. Not all dumb people believe in god and not all smart people are atheist and if you believe they are you need to check your IQ.


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## Doer (Jul 15, 2012)

There is smarts and intelligence. Cunning and logic. Spartan and sybartic thought processes. I don't think IQ is associatied one way or another. Religion is about emotion.

We don't know but, Billy Graham and Mitt Romney probably have high IQ.


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## kpmarine (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Awe cute, your pretending you dont have beliefs. You BELIEVE there is no god, Hep, dont lie. Thats how you were raised, you were raised to believe what people tell you, raised to be in a labeled group. You were a kid, accepted the first explanation of life that was given to you, kept that ridiculous explanation for a while until you finally caught on. Dropped, then it was almost like you were a kid again, fresh mind! But sadly, people came and told you whats what, and you accepted it, just repeated the process with no original thought... Im quite fine with keeping the discussion here, thanks =) unless this is the last word.


Wow, you should apparently be writing Heph's biography. You know an awful lot about his upbringing and life choices. Or was that all speculation because your vagina got a bit of sand in it?


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## kpmarine (Jul 15, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> Again you are wrong. What your basically saying is that critical thinking skills prevent belief in the "supernatural" and that is simply not true. There are many people who would put us both to shame in critical thinking skills who believe in God. Also to say all faith stems from stupidity and ignorance is a stupid, ignorant and naive thing to believe. Many come from need. A need to see your loved ones again, a need to explain your existences, a need to justify war, a need for justice not seen in life and on and on and on. Its just not so simple. And the reason people don't go on believing in Santa is because its an accepted myth and we are told its bull shit. How many religious people do you know who believe in Santa? By your standard all none critical thinkers should believe in god, they don't, no more then all critical thinkers are atheist. You reasoning is flawed by a very narrow view of people. Religion, all religion is born from human nature and human nature is much more complex then your view allows. Any way we are not going to agree on this but we do agree its all bull shit so say your peace or not. Im tired of repeating myself. No hard feelings and all that. Later bro


Critical thinking, when applied, honestly prevents belief in a god of any sort. Critical thinking requires you to ask yourself "What evidence is there of god?". The obvious answer is "none". He doesn't come down for visits, and left no evidence behind of his existence. Any person who concludes that god exists, isn't using critical thinking skills to establish it. Critical thinking does it's job, cognitive dissonance is what makes it possible for smart people to ignore it. Fear is a strong motivator, fear of death even more so. It can cause a man to forsake reason for comfort.


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## cannabineer (Jul 15, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Critical thinking, when applied, honestly prevents belief in a god of any sort. Critical thinking requires you to ask yourself "What evidence is there of god?". The obvious answer is "none". He doesn't come down for visits, and left no evidence behind of his existence. Any person who concludes that god exists, isn't using critical thinking skills to establish it. Critical thinking does it's job, cognitive dissonance is what makes it possible for smart people to ignore it. Fear is a strong motivator, fear of death even more so. It can cause a man to forsake reason for comfort.


 Imo a very valid counterargument can be brought in re evidence of God. While your answer "none" is obvious at a coarse, first-pass level, one can ask if there is evidence of a "hidden hand" guiding subtler processes more integrated in nature and life. That principle underlies classic examples of apophenia gone cancerous, like astrology, reflexology, Kabbala. The question "is there less obvious sign of a divine in action? cannot be so neatly discharged imo, and it returns the question to the realm of faith. Unless/until our brains evolve into a different, more internally-transparent mode of mentation, capable of really vetting the subtle ghostly signals for what's real, I do not see a way for either side to claim victory. In the meantime, i imagine our duty is to be very wary of stories that excite our very human capacity for animism ... while being damn sure to never toss out unlikely (but not impossible) babies in that bathwater. _ceterum censeo _ I really dislike this strange limp-along mode that RIU finds itself using today. I can't Like, and I can't use italics without an old html trick. cn And what the ~obscene roar~ is it with not keeping linebreaks!!


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 15, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way.
> Persecution is used in theology, not in arithmetic, because in arithmetic there is knowledge, but in theology there is only opinion. So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants.
> Bertrand Russell


Good stuff, leader of the robots. You can clearly see that Im showing anger and not pity when I say "Poor misguided Hep, cant think for himself, needs to follow a herd"... Oh how angry that sounds, your right, I should really be more comfortable with what I know lol. Here Hep thinks hes a big boy yet he depends on those that are smarter to argue for him.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 15, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Well that's an error on your part, you're presuming to know intimate details about Hep's personal transition to nonbeliever which you have no way of knowing.
> 
> All you know about him is he doesn't believe in God.


Nah I heard him when he first dropped his belief, he was kissing a lot of ass, probably kissed your ass too and asked for your "knowledge".


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## Heisenberg (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Good stuff, leader of the robots. You can clearly see that Im showing anger and not pity when I say "Poor misguided Hep, cant think for himself, needs to follow a herd"... Oh how angry that sounds, your right, I should really be more comfortable with what I know lol. Here Hep thinks hes a big boy yet he depends on those that are smarter to argue for him.



That's so Raven...


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 15, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> Again you are wrong. What your basically saying is that critical thinking skills prevent belief in the "supernatural" and that is simply not true. There are many people who would put us both to shame in critical thinking skills who believe in God. Also to say all faith stems from stupidity and ignorance is a stupid, ignorant and naive thing to believe. Many come from need. A need to see your loved ones again, a need to explain your existences, a need to justify war, a need for justice not seen in life and on and on and on. Its just not so simple. And the reason people don't go on believing in Santa is because its an accepted myth and we are told its bull shit. How many religious people do you know who believe in Santa? By your standard all none critical thinkers should believe in god, they don't, no more then all critical thinkers are atheist. You reasoning is flawed by a very narrow view of people. Religion, all religion is born from human nature and human nature is much more complex then your view allows. Any way we are not going to agree on this but we do agree its all bull shit so say your peace or not. Im tired of repeating myself. No hard feelings and all that. Later bro


No matter how intelligent the bliever is, he wouldn't put me to shame using his CTS (critical thinking skills) to prove his beliefs. The moment he says there is a god, he set aside his CTS on the subject. By simply saying "I don't know if there is or isn't a god", I would have already put more thought into it than he has. 

"many come from need. A need to see your loved ones again, a need to explain your existences..." 
Believing in a god to solve those ^^ issues is ignorant. You're misinformed on the true answers. You ignore all logic just to be satisfied. I'm not asking why people believe, I'm telling you that they're ignorant for believing in the first place. 

I tell you that religion is bull shit, so why don't you drop your beliefs like you dropped your beliefs with santa (assuming you believed in santa)? Also, what does other people's beliefs in religion have to do with you? YOU should have enough logic and reasoning to say "No, all of this is nonsense" regardless of how many people believe. 

No, I've met some stupid atheists that lack CTS. I don't have a standard. 

No hard feelings at all.. Just voicing our opinions. Notice how we haven't insulted each other?


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 15, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> That's so Raven...


That bitch is SO skinny now, its fuckin gross. She needs to do some soul searching too, just like Hep lol.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 15, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> . The question "is there less obvious sign of a divine in action? cannot be so neatly discharged imo, and it returns the question to the realm of faith. Unless/until our brains evolve into a different, more internally-transparent mode of mentation, capable of really vetting the subtle ghostly signals for what's real, I do not see a way for either side to claim victory.


The power of the leprechauns gave me luck!! 

Even if we can't full out "calim victory", we can admit the beliefs are silly.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> That bitch is SO skinny now, its fuckin gross. She needs to do some soul searching too, just like Hep lol.


...Said the nutjob


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 15, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> No matter how intelligent the bliever is, he wouldn't put me to shame using his CTS (critical thinking skills) to prove his beliefs. The moment he says there is a god, he set aside his CTS on the subject. By simply saying "I don't know if there is or isn't a god", I would have already put more thought into it than he has.
> 
> "many come from need. A need to see your loved ones again, a need to explain your existences..."
> Believing in a god to solve those ^^ issues is ignorant. You're misinformed on the true answers. You ignore all logic just to be satisfied. I'm not asking why people believe, I'm telling you that they're ignorant for believing in the first place.
> ...


Theres the Hep I like to laugh at lol You believe that god doesnt exist Hep, dont lie, you are not agnostic, and you didnt develop critical thinking skills, you asked what you should believe after your dropped your religion and everyone spoon fed you "knowledge" and you ate it all up, not once putting original thought into your decisions. Feel free to PM me your broken record of an argument.


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## cannabineer (Jul 15, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> The power of the leprechauns gave me luck!! Even if we can't full out "calim victory", we can admit the beliefs are silly.


 The obvious ones yes, but I was speaking to the others. There are others. cn


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## high|hgih (Jul 15, 2012)

I never had one. Well I guess a self one.

I never truthfully believed in santa clause either.

That being said cuz it probably sounds pretty mean.. lol, if religion is your thing, whatever.. I just don't buy it. Ill glady become educated on the subject though shits interesting none the less..


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## Heisenberg (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Theres the Hep I like to laugh at lol You believe that god doesnt exist Hep, dont lie, you are not agnostic, and you didnt develop critical thinking skills, you asked what you should believe after your dropped your religion and everyone spoon fed you "knowledge" and you ate it all up, not once putting original thought into your decisions. Feel free to PM me your broken record of an argument.


You seem quite desperate to shove your strawman down Hep's throat. It appears the actual words coming from his mouth are too hard to counter, so you insist on arguing with this pretend Hep. Even more interesting is that you set this strawman up so that you can beg the question.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 15, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> The obvious ones yes, but I was speaking to the others. There are others. cn


What are these religions that don't have silly beliefs?


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## Heisenberg (Jul 15, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> What are these religions that don't have silly beliefs?


I believe the sentiment is, don't be so focused on the silly ways people find to believe in God that you overlook real possibilities, whatever they might be.


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## cannabineer (Jul 15, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> What are these religions that don't have silly beliefs?


 I wasn't talking about religions. Anything so formalized can be safely discarded imo. I was trying (failing, perhaps) to differentiate between religion and possible awareness of the divine. cn (edit) Heisenberg seems to have refined meaning from my low-grade ore.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 15, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I wasn't talking about religions. Anything so formalized can be safely discarded imo. I was trying (failing, perhaps) to differentiate between religion and possible awareness of the divine. cn (edit) Heisenberg seems to have refined meaning from my low-grade ore.


Ahhhh I get what you're saying now. My bad. And I agree.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 15, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> You seem quite desperate to shove your strawman down Hep's throat. It appears the actual words coming from his mouth are too hard to counter, so you insist on arguing with this pretend Hep. Even more interesting is that you set this strawman up so that you can beg the question.


Im not trying to counter his words, Im pointing out how he contradicts himself. He says hes agnostic but I seen him say "god does not exist" on more than one occasion. He BELIEVES that god does not exist, as if that belief is more respectable than those who have a belief in god. Im pointing out that he is still the same blind follower, this time with a different viewpoint. He had a fresh mind when he dropped his christian beliefs, but then the process repeated itself and people started telling him how the world really works and he accepted that explanation without doing any searching what so ever, I call that being intellectually lazy and being dependent on others. Now he thinks he has CTS (he keeps mentioning that like its a boy scout badge lol) and has everything figure out, its comical to watch his long responses.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Im not trying to counter his words, Im pointing out how he contradicts himself. He says hes agnostic but I seen him say "god does not exist" on more than one occasion. He BELIEVES that god does not exist, as if that belief is more respectable than those who have a belief in god. Im pointing out that he is still the same blind follower, this time with a different viewpoint. He had a fresh mind when he dropped his christian beliefs, but then the process repeated itself and people started telling him how the world really works and he accepted that explanation without doing any searching what so ever, I call that being intellectually lazy and being dependent on others. Now he thinks he has CTS (he keeps mentioning that like its a boy scout badge lol) and has everything figure out, its comical to watch his long responses.


....Said the nutjob


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 15, 2012)

^ And thats his only response lol He cant form an argument so you guys have to do it for him.


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## Heisenberg (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Im not trying to counter his words, Im pointing out how he contradicts himself. He says hes agnostic but I seen him say "god does not exist" on more than one occasion. He BELIEVES that god does not exist, as if that belief is more respectable than those who have a belief in god. Im pointing out that he is still the same blind follower, this time with a different viewpoint. He had a fresh mind when he dropped his christian beliefs, but then the process repeated itself and people started telling him how the world really works and he accepted that explanation without doing any searching what so ever, I call that being intellectually lazy and being dependent on others. Now he thinks he has CTS (he keeps mentioning that like its a boy scout badge lol) and has everything figure out, its comical to watch his long responses.


tl;dr


tenmore


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 15, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> tl;dr
> 
> 
> tenmore


Nah you read it, you probably just realized Im on to something and you dont wanna hurt poor Heps pride lol.


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## Doer (Jul 15, 2012)

This to me is smary. 

What is it called Mr. H, when someone proposes that your pride been hurt and then says just kidding? If you resopond, it's, ah ha.

If you don't it's, ah ha.

Alternate of chioce? I know it has a better term than smary. It's a formal debate term, isn't it?


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## cannabineer (Jul 15, 2012)

Master baiting? cn


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## Heisenberg (Jul 15, 2012)

A loaded question is a question with a false or questionable presupposition, and it is "loaded" with that presumption. The question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" presupposes that you have beaten your wife prior to its asking, as well as that you have a wife. If you are unmarried, or have never beaten your wife, then the question is loaded.


Since this example is a yes/no question, there are only the following two direct answers:


"Yes, I have stopped beating my wife", which entails "I was beating my wife."
"No, I haven't stopped beating my wife", which entails "I am still beating my wife."
Thus, either direct answer entails that you have beaten your wife, which is, therefore, a presupposition of the question. 

Same critique applies to propositions


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## cannabineer (Jul 15, 2012)

I am indescribably gratified that you use a condiment. However I have found mayonnaise to be both safer and more pleasurable. And it has stealth qualities in context. Ketchup and mustard would raise valid health/hygiene questions. cn


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## kpmarine (Jul 15, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Imo a very valid counterargument can be brought in re evidence of God. While your answer "none" is obvious at a coarse, first-pass level, one can ask if there is evidence of a "hidden hand" guiding subtler processes more integrated in nature and life. That principle underlies classic examples of apophenia gone cancerous, like astrology, reflexology, Kabbala. The question "is there less obvious sign of a divine in action? cannot be so neatly discharged imo, and it returns the question to the realm of faith. Unless/until our brains evolve into a different, more internally-transparent mode of mentation, capable of really vetting the subtle ghostly signals for what's real, I do not see a way for either side to claim victory. In the meantime, i imagine our duty is to be very wary of stories that excite our very human capacity for animism ... while being damn sure to never toss out unlikely (but not impossible) babies in that bathwater. _ceterum censeo _ I really dislike this strange limp-along mode that RIU finds itself using today. I can't Like, and I can't use italics without an old html trick. cn And what the ~obscene roar~ is it with not keeping linebreaks!!


Can you explain to me where a "hidden hand" and chance can be differentiated? That's where I find it impossible, using critical thinking, to chalk it up to anything supernatural. Correlation does not imply causation, if you will. I do, however, agree that something should not be disregarded just because it seems implausible. One should always remain open to new ideas, provided they can hold up to a degree of scrutiny. It's the "I don't know, so it must be god." concept that makes no sense. The response should be "I don't know, so let's find an answer that is provable.". If, somehow, this ends with us proving that it is a higher power; then I'd be perfectly open to the idea.

I think that's what you were getting at there, feel free to steer me back on course if I'm wrong.


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## rpgdude (Jul 15, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Critical thinking, when applied, honestly prevents belief in a god of any sort. Critical thinking requires you to ask yourself "What evidence is there of god?". The obvious answer is "none". He doesn't come down for visits, and left no evidence behind of his existence. Any person who concludes that god exists, isn't using critical thinking skills to establish it. Critical thinking does it's job, cognitive dissonance is what makes it possible for smart people to ignore it. Fear is a strong motivator, fear of death even more so. It can cause a man to forsake reason for comfort.


 You know what an apologist is? If not Google it. Good apologist can apply critical thinking in debates all day long. Proof is subjective, what you see as proof another will not. There are some very critical thinkers and skilled debaters in the world of religion, Ravi Zacharias has made many atheist from all backgrounds look like fools. Kent Hovind has some crazy ass beliefs like the world being only 6000 years old and yet again and again he can back it up with real data and tear down much of what text books teach about science. Do I think there right? Nop, but they have strengthen there convictions through critical thinking. You can apply critical thinking to both believe or not believe. It seems to me that people need to feel superior to others in some way and if they don't have a god to tell them why they are better then it must be there critical thinking skills that make them better.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 15, 2012)

How is proof subjective?


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## RawBudzski (Jul 15, 2012)

I think buddhism makes the most sense out of them all, if the world had to convert all @ once to a currect religion I think Big Buddha wins. <3


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## rpgdude (Jul 15, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> No matter how intelligent the bliever is, he wouldn't put me to shame using his CTS (critical thinking skills) to prove his beliefs. The moment he says there is a god, he set aside his CTS on the subject. By simply saying "I don't know if there is or isn't a god", I would have already put more thought into it than he has.
> 
> "many come from need. A need to see your loved ones again, a need to explain your existences..."
> Believing in a god to solve those ^^ issues is ignorant. You're misinformed on the true answers. You ignore all logic just to be satisfied. I'm not asking why people believe, I'm telling you that they're ignorant for believing in the first place.
> ...


 I don't believe any of that shit, none of it, its all superstition and wishful thinking but I disagree that critical thinking can only point you to truth and fact. There are people who would slam you and me in a debate from both a theological and scientific stand point and walk all over our critical thinking skills. I know this becaus Iv watched them do it to scientist, Harvard and yale professors and many many more people. Any way your wrong and I'm right or maybe Im wrong and your right. Ill say this I think people have wasted enough time on religion and I bet we agree the world would have been a much nicer place without the shit.


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## rpgdude (Jul 15, 2012)

RawBudzski said:


> I think buddhism makes the most sense out of them all, if the world had to convert all @ once to a currect religion I think Big Buddha wins. <3


LaVeyan Satanism FTW 
Satanists do not believe in the supernatural, in neither God nor the Devil. To the Satanist, he is his own God. Satan is a symbol of Man living as his prideful, carnal nature dictates. The reality behind Satan is simply the dark evolutionary force of entropy that permeates all of nature and provides the drive for survival and propagation inherent in all living things. Satan is not a conscious entity to be worshipped, rather a reservoir of power inside each human to be tapped at will. Thus any concept of sacrifice is rejected as a Christian aberration&#8212;in Satanism there&#8217;s no deity to which one can sacrifice. 
Peter H. gilmore of the Church of Satan


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## kpmarine (Jul 15, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> You know what an apologist is? If not Google it. Good apologist can apply critical thinking in debates all day long. Proof is subjective, what you see as proof another will not. There are some very critical thinkers and skilled debaters in the world of religion, Ravi Zacharias has made many atheist from all backgrounds look like fools. Kent Hovind has some crazy ass beliefs like the world being only 6000 years old and yet again and again he can back it up with real data and tear down much of what text books teach about science. Do I think there right? Nop, but they have strengthen there convictions through critical thinking. You can apply critical thinking to both believe or not believe. It seems to me that people need to feel superior to others in some way and if they don't have a god to tell them why they are better then it must be there critical thinking skills that make them better.


I disagree with the fact that proof is subjective. I do believe that you can interpret it differently than I, though. If you choose to believe the age of the earth is 6,000 years old (Not saying you do.), then you have to disregard certain facts that are well documented. Just because you can make an argument by leaving out facts not beneficial to your position, it does not make you right. They strengthen their beliefs through a bastardization of critical thinking, wherein they start with a confirmation bias. 

I don't care if you "have a god"; I'd just like you to keep him where he belongs, firmly planted in the realm of speculation. I have no objection to you having faith, it's trying to legitimize something that can't be proven that runs counter to reason.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 15, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> I don't believe any of that shit, none of it, its all superstition and wishful thinking but I disagree that critical thinking can only point you to truth and fact. There are people who would slam you and me in a debate from both a theological and scientific stand point and walk all over our critical thinking skills. I know this becaus Iv watched them do it to scientist, Harvard and yale professors and many many more people. Any way your wrong and I'm right or maybe Im wrong and your right. Ill say this I think people have wasted enough time on religion and I bet we agree the world would have been a much nicer place without the shit.


It doesn't matter how smart an individual is when it comes to having "faith". If somebody accepts religion as fact, they have set aside CT to honestly believe whatever it is that they believe. 

Maybe a religious person has stumped a number of porfessors on different topics, but I doubt it's ever been done when it comes to religion. Tell me who are these religious people who stump scientists and college professors.


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## rpgdude (Jul 15, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> I disagree with the fact that proof is subjective. I do believe that you can interpret it differently than I, though. If you choose to believe the age of the earth is 6,000 years old (Not saying you do.), then you have to disregard certain facts that are well documented. Just because you can make an argument by leaving out facts not beneficial to your position, it does not make you right. They strengthen their beliefs through a bastardization of critical thinking, wherein they start with a confirmation bias.
> 
> I don't care if you "have a god"; I'd just like you to keep him where he belongs, firmly planted in the realm of speculation. I have no objection to you having faith, it's trying to legitimize something that can't be proven that runs counter to reason.


 Sounds good but men like Kent Hovind dont leave out what we call facts they attacked them showing that many are not facts and some are out right lies. He also had his on set of facts. Go watch him he is really good at making much of science look like a belief system and not facts and much that is belief appear as facts. We are never going to agree on this.


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## Heisenberg (Jul 15, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> You know what an apologist is? If not Google it. Good apologist can apply critical thinking in debates all day long. Proof is subjective, what you see as proof another will not. There are some very critical thinkers and skilled debaters in the world of religion, Ravi Zacharias has made many atheist from all backgrounds look like fools. Kent Hovind has some crazy ass beliefs like the world being only 6000 years old and yet again and again he can back it up with real data and tear down much of what text books teach about science. Do I think there right? Nop, but they have strengthen there convictions through critical thinking. You can apply critical thinking to both believe or not believe. It seems to me that people need to feel superior to others in some way and if they don't have a god to tell them why they are better then it must be there critical thinking skills that make them better.


Critical thinking, in the context of a skill, is a process used to judge the truth value of assumptions and access the accuracy of premises and conclusions. What you are describing is pseudo-intellectualism, or weak critical thinking. Like pseudoscience, it selectively implores tools in pursuit of satisfying a bias. Religious apologetics exploit critical thinking and debate tactics in the pretense of justifying a presupposed answer. Critical thinking is called a skill because it must be learned, like math, and has rules that are just as strict. Apologetics is critical thinking without the application of skepticism, which makes it incomplete.

It is true that many smart, well trained and educated people believe in God. An evolution scientist can have no problem going to church on Sunday. This is achieved through various cognitive bias that we are all subject to. People have many ways of compartmentalizing their beliefs, and in some certain cases a high IQ might make things worse if a person is unaware. The point is, if a person makes the positive claim that there is a God, that person is not applying critical thinking to the conclusion, even if he uses critical thinking concepts to support it. Without evidence, reason must make a partner of faith. Critical thinking prevents accepting any conclusion on faith without labeling it as such.

Some people understand critical thinking completely and openly admit they believe on faith. They ignore their intellectual side and go with other inclinations. These people are not ignorant in the sense they are uninformed, but they engage in exclusion, which is the sister of ignorance. Essentially, they exclude their faith from objections we would apply to all other areas of knowledge, all other processes which attempt to provide accurate answers.


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## cannabineer (Jul 15, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Can you explain to me where a "hidden hand" and chance can be differentiated? That's where I find it impossible, using critical thinking, to chalk it up to anything supernatural. Correlation does not imply causation, if you will. I do, however, agree that something should not be disregarded just because it seems implausible. One should always remain open to new ideas, provided they can hold up to a degree of scrutiny. It's the "I don't know, so it must be god." concept that makes no sense. The response should be "I don't know, so let's find an answer that is provable.". If, somehow, this ends with us proving that it is a higher power; then I'd be perfectly open to the idea.
> 
> I think that's what you were getting at there, feel free to steer me back on course if I'm wrong.


I prefer "I don't know, which means ...I don't know what". 

As for telling random chance from a subtle nonrandom signal, I agree that that is very hard. Apart from objective reasons, the one thing that makes it so hard is that humans have quite a talent for perceiving pattern where there is none, then using an unconscious confirmation bias to stack the deck in favor of their "insight". 
When you say "something should not be disregarded because it's implausible", you've done a good job capturing my core sentiments. just because most ascriptions of pattern to a supernatural influence are wrong doe not guarantee that all are. With time, effort and an unfailing commitment to disciplined thought, i'm hoping that apparent instances of the supernatural, like a friend who has startlingly clear and correct memories that predate [genderless pronoun's] birth, can be brought into the fold of the understood. 

Since I cannot rule out the actions of random chance, and since I am keenly aware for our human talent for apophenia to both generate and buttress our suspicions that something from beyond is reaching through to /into us, I am strongly inclined at this time to prefer random chance as one of the core engines and properties of our existence. cn


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## cannabineer (Jul 15, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> You know what an apologist is? If not Google it. Good apologist can apply critical thinking in debates all day long. Proof is subjective, what you see as proof another will not. There are some very critical thinkers and skilled debaters in the world of religion, Ravi Zacharias has made many atheist from all backgrounds look like fools. Kent Hovind has some crazy ass beliefs like the world being only 6000 years old and yet again and again he can back it up with real data and tear down much of what text books teach about science. Do I think there right? Nop, but they have strengthen there convictions through critical thinking. You can apply critical thinking to both believe or not believe. It seems to me that people need to feel superior to others in some way and if they don't have a god to tell them why they are better then it must be there critical thinking skills that make them better.


I would be fascinated to hear your analysis of Kent Hovind's factuality. What I've seen of his doctrine can be explained by the classical method for fitting a square peg into a round hole: use enough hammer.


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## RawBudzski (Jul 15, 2012)

* Laa laa laaa I can't hear you. <3*


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## rpgdude (Jul 15, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I would be fascinated to hear your analysis of Kent Hovind's factuality. What I've seen of his doctrine can be explained by the classical method for fitting a square peg into a round hole: use enough hammer.


 Then you haven't watched him much. He points out some real fallacy and lies found in science text books and raises some good questions on many accepted scientific theories. The hammer analogy can be applied to many scientific theories as well.


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## cannabineer (Jul 15, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> Then you haven't watched him much. He points out some real fallacy and lies found in science text books and raises some good questions on many accepted scientific theories. The hammer analogy can be applied to many scientific theories as well.


Do you have examples andor text links? I'm not very patient with vids. cn


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 15, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> Then you haven't watched him much. He points out some real fallacy and lies found in science text books and raises some good questions on many accepted scientific theories. The hammer analogy can be applied to many scientific theories as well.


I've listened to Kent Hovind plenty, his son Eric Hovind, too. Both are equally as misinformed about ANYTHING scientific.

Hovind to science is like oil to water.

He knows absolutely nothing about the most basic concepts, shit students learn about in 9th and 10th grade biology classes, of evolution.


If you're getting this information from sources like Hovind, you're being LIED to. They are actively involved in misinformation. 

Kent's actually serving some time in federal prison right now on some tax related issue...


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## mindphuk (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> LOL Hep your fucking clown man, I love posts like this where the true dimwit comes out, its just a tab bit more funny than the posts where you try hard to act smart.


What the fuck is wrong with you? You don't seem to have anything substantive or interesting to post so you follow Hep around to various threads just to insult him? Personal insults are classless but your trolling is even worse. You seem to be acting like Hep's deconversion is a personal affront to you, that somehow a person that used to believe and no longer does affects you in some negative way and so you lash out at him. Have some basic decency, learn to have discussions with people you disagree with in a calm, mature manner, it will gain you a modicum of respect, something you are greatly lacking ATM.

When Hep was posting here as a believer, people treated him respectfully because he wasn't an ass. He vehemently disagreed with things many of us said but he asked questions and tried valiantly to defend his beliefs until he realized they were indefensible from a position of logic and reason and that it was pure faith. Admitting a belief is held only because of faith is honest and one can disagree with faith, I can respect honesty. Losing a long-held faith position is difficult and often very depressing and certainly not deserving of the constant mocking you have targeted toward him. Of course, it's difficult, if not impossible, to mock a rationally held position which is why pretty much everything you have posted attempting to do so has been a strawman or plain personal attacks with no substance. 

So answer this question, why do you find his deconversion so personally offensive that you feel you must attack him in every thread you find?


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## mindphuk (Jul 15, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Im not trying to counter his words, Im pointing out how he contradicts himself. He says hes agnostic but I seen him say "god does not exist" on more than one occasion. He BELIEVES that god does not exist, as if that belief is more respectable than those who have a belief in god. Im pointing out that he is still the same blind follower, this time with a different viewpoint. He had a fresh mind when he dropped his christian beliefs, but then the process repeated itself and people started telling him how the world really works and he accepted that explanation without doing any searching what so ever, I call that being intellectually lazy and being dependent on others. Now he thinks he has CTS (he keeps mentioning that like its a boy scout badge lol) and has everything figure out, its comical to watch his long responses.


CWE says the darnedest things....


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## mindphuk (Jul 15, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> You know what an apologist is? If not Google it. Good apologist can apply critical thinking in debates all day long. Proof is subjective, what you see as proof another will not. There are some very critical thinkers and skilled debaters in the world of religion, Ravi Zacharias has made many atheist from all backgrounds look like fools. Kent Hovind has some crazy ass beliefs like the world being only 6000 years old and yet again and again he can back it up with real data and tear down much of what text books teach about science. Do I think there right? Nop, but they have strengthen there convictions through critical thinking. You can apply critical thinking to both believe or not believe. It seems to me that people need to feel superior to others in some way and if they don't have a god to tell them why they are better then it must be there critical thinking skills that make them better.


LMAO!!! 
The mere suggestion that someone like Kent Hovind utilizes critical thinking makes my head explode. People like Hovind aren't using CTS, they are relying on the ignorance of their target audience to the truth and facts so they are able to get away with lies, distortions and strawmen as ammunition for their attack. When in a real debate, his lies are countered, he glosses over them and proceeds with new ways of bending the truth making it impossible for any one interested in real debate to have one because of the limiting time and inability to thoroughly teach the subject in which Hovind is lying about. His actions and words are more akin to those of grifters and other con men, not of educators and critical thinkers.


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## rpgdude (Jul 15, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> I've listened to Kent Hovind plenty, his son Eric Hovind, too. Both are equally as misinformed about ANYTHING scientific.
> 
> Hovind to science is like oil to water.
> 
> ...


 And they say the same thing about you. Also he shows without a doubt that scientific text books in our schools "DO" have point blank lies perpetrated by scientist. Its not an opinion its a fact! I don't believe in god or any of the young earth shit he says but he proves that people have real reasons to believe they way they do and scientist can be just as fanatical as the religious even to the point of making shit up. I don't like the guy but he sure did make a name for himself debating scientist and professors and you know why? He could challenge them, otherwise he would never have gotten in the doors of major universities. He did it with real scientific data and many times made laughing stocks out of some very intelligent people. Not bad for a guy who doesn't understand the basic science that he taught for 15 years.


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## cannabineer (Jul 15, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> And they say the same thing about you. *Also he shows without a doubt that scientific text books in our schools "DO" have point blank lies perpetrated by scientist.* Its not an opinion its a fact! I don't believe in god or any of the young earth shit he says but he proves that people have real reasons to believe they way they do and scientist can be just as fanatical as the religious even to the point of making shit up. I don't like the guy but he sure did make a name for himself debating scientist and professors and you know why? He could challenge them, otherwise he would never have gotten in the doors of major universities. He did it with real scientific data and many times made laughing stocks out of some very intelligent people. Not bad for a guy who doesn't understand the basic science that he taught for 15 years.


I will ask again: Please expound. Lists; specifics. cn


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 15, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> And they say the same thing about you. Also he shows without a doubt that scientific text books in our schools "DO" have point blank lies perpetrated by scientist. Its not an opinion its a fact! I don't believe in god or any of the young earth shit he says but he proves that people have real reasons to believe they way they do and scientist can be just as fanatical as the religious even to the point of making shit up. I don't like the guy but he sure did make a name for himself debating scientist and professors and you know why? He could challenge them, otherwise he would never have gotten in the doors of major universities. He did it with real scientific data and many times made laughing stocks out of some very intelligent people. Not bad for a guy who doesn't understand the basic science that he taught for 15 years.



Of course he says the same thing about the scientific community, except we can demonstrably prove what he says is false. 

I'd like you to do a little bit of research on Kent Hovind for yourself. An analogy I can come up with on the spot would be something like Kent Hovind is to science what Jesse Jackson is to African American rights, or what Rush Limbaugh is to the GOP, what the Pope is to Catholicism... 

You don't go to a scientist asking about theology, so why would you go to a young earth creationist asking about science? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind

"Hovind's views are contradicted by scientific evidence and some of his ideas have also been criticized by young earth creationist organizations such as Answers in Genesis."

"In 1971 he graduated from East Peoria Community High School in East Peoria, Illinois. From 1972 to 1974, Hovind attended the non-accredited Midwestern Baptist College and received a Bachelor of *Religious Education*.[SUP][3][/SUP]

In 1988 and 1991 respectively, Hovind was awarded *a master's degree and doctorate in Christian Education* through correspondence from the *non-accredited Patriot University* in Colorado Springs, Colorado(now Patriot Bible University in Del Norte, Colorado, which no longer offers this program).[SUP][7][/SUP] Having a website called "Dr. Dino" has provoked some academics to look closely at how Hovind presents his education and credentials. Chemistry professor Karen Bartelt has said that it is "_*very*_ unusual for a person with a Ph.D., even a real one, to list oneself in the phonebook as "Dr Hovind", as Hovind has done."[SUP][8][/SUP] Barbara Forrest, a professor of philosophy, expert on the history of creationism and activist in the creation-evolution controversy, wrote that *Hovind's lack of academic training makes it impossible to engage him on a professional level*.[SUP][9]"


Keep reading, it only gets worse for the guy...
[/SUP]


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## mindphuk (Jul 16, 2012)

rpgdude said:


> And they say the same thing about you. Also he shows without a doubt that scientific text books in our schools "DO" have point blank lies perpetrated by scientist. Its not an opinion its a fact! I don't believe in god or any of the young earth shit he says but he proves that people have real reasons to believe they way they do and scientist can be just as fanatical as the religious even to the point of making shit up. I don't like the guy but he sure did make a name for himself debating scientist and professors and you know why? He could challenge them, otherwise he would never have gotten in the doors of major universities. He did it with real scientific data and many times made laughing stocks out of some very intelligent people. Not bad for a guy who doesn't understand the basic science that he taught for 15 years.


That's actually a pretty serious accusation and I don't think you could actually prove it, let's say using the legal standard of reasonable doubt, no wait, let's use the less stringent - preponderance of evidence. IOW, back it up or else start getting used to people putting you in the same category of proven liar, Hovind. 

Now some ground rules. In order to determine whether an untrue statement is a lie, you will have to demonstrate it was, 
a) done purposely and maliciously
b) not merely a speculation but presented as an real hypothesis
c) is known or even could have been easily known to be untrue by the textbook author. Which leads to another point which would be you would also need to demonstrate it wasn't a pure mistake, which does happen, especially when an editor attempts to change things and the author doesn't get to proof the changes, because there have been instances of this reported. 
d) I think you need to stick to actual US based textbooks intended for actual science students and actually written by a scientist, or demonstrate that a certain untruth has been systemically used by multiple textbooks, otherwise I think you could hedge by using actual creationist textbooks that are known to contain factual errors, specifically meant to deceive a student.*
e) I think it goes without saying that I won't accept a second hand account of what a textbook says unless it isn't in dispute. IOW, don't expect me to believe a creationist website that claims a textbook says something unless it's verified. This gives me a chance to make sure you don't use the routine creationist tactic of quote mining where removing a statement from context or creative editing changes the intended meaning. Of course point 'a' should cover that, but I figure it can't hurt to be thorough on the rules as it actually might save YOU some time if you man up adnd accept this challenge. 

Which brings me to offering this as a bet since you seem pretty damn sure of yourself. We can use bitcoin or some other anonymous method if you have one. The only thing I am not sure of is judging or referee. Obviously a neutral party, maybe a committee but I think the honor system could work if you agree to the rules. . 
If you accept the bet, you can do so without putting any money at risk, just honor, or you can offer anything up to $1000 due to the limitations of payment.

* That would be disingenuous of you but if I don't state such a thing formally, you could 'technically' win and since I personally am willing to bet money on this and actually used to specifying rules of such bets frequently and I'm pretty high right now, I sort of forgot I haven't actually made a bet but I was going through my analysis using critical thinking... as I do for all of my bets, because critical thinking and logic (including formalized logic like math) actually work and have made me a decent amount of money. Interesting how even in those arenas I consistently do better than punters that rely on intuition, luck, god, etc. I guess you could say I am pretty confident in logic and reason and I have empirical evidence that it is better in ALL ways than faith. I guess you could say I have faith in not using faith to guide me and humanity. Equivocation can be funny sometimes. ​


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 16, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> What the fuck is wrong with you? You don't seem to have anything substantive or interesting to post so you follow Hep around to various threads just to insult him? Personal insults are classless but your trolling is even worse. You seem to be acting like Hep's deconversion is a personal affront to you, that somehow a person that used to believe and no longer does affects you in some negative way and so you lash out at him. Have some basic decency, learn to have discussions with people you disagree with in a calm, mature manner, it will gain you a modicum of respect, something you are greatly lacking ATM.
> 
> When Hep was posting here as a believer, people treated him respectfully because he wasn't an ass. He vehemently disagreed with things many of us said but he asked questions and tried valiantly to defend his beliefs until he realized they were indefensible from a position of logic and reason and that it was pure faith. Admitting a belief is held only because of faith is honest and one can disagree with faith, I can respect honesty. Losing a long-held faith position is difficult and often very depressing and certainly not deserving of the constant mocking you have targeted toward him. Of course, it's difficult, if not impossible, to mock a rationally held position which is why pretty much everything you have posted attempting to do so has been a strawman or plain personal attacks with no substance.
> 
> So answer this question, why do you find his deconversion so personally offensive that you feel you must attack him in every thread you find?


Attack him? Now whos playing the hurt card. Its not my fault that Heps big head stands out in a crowd. I dont care that he lost his religion, good for him, took him 18 years to realize basic knowledge. Its the fact that he thinks he knows the truth now, he throws around the word "SCIENCE" like he has scientific knowledge, you know what scientific knowledge he told me in the other thread? "I take a pill to stop being sick, thats science"  That shit is fucking comical man, I dont care what anyone says. Im not the only one to point out his arrogant attitude either, its not only me who shares this opinion. Hes an ignorant child who thinks he has life figured out and says "CTS!" like its a boy scout badge.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 16, 2012)




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## mindphuk (Jul 16, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Attack him? Now whos playing the hurt card. Its not my fault that Heps big head stands out in a crowd. I dont care that he lost his religion, good for him, took him 18 years to realize basic knowledge. Its the fact that he thinks he knows the truth now, he throws around the word "SCIENCE" like he has scientific knowledge, you know what scientific knowledge he told me in the other thread? "I take a pill to stop being sick, thats science"  That shit is fucking comical man, I dont care what anyone says. Im not the only one to point out his arrogant attitude either, its not only me who shares this opinion. Hes an ignorant child who thinks he has life figured out and says "CTS!" like its a boy scout badge.


Hurt card? Do you throw out phrases without understanding their meaning often? Where did I act hurt? Are you actually denying you attacked him? 
[h=3]Noun[/h] *personal attack (plural personal attacks)*
* 

Making of an abusive remark instead of providing evidence when examining another person's claims or comments.
*The post I quoted to which you responded was the evidence for my post. If you're playing stupid, you're not helping yourself. If you really are stupid, then I guess this response is meaningless but I'll try to by posting again:


> *Hep your fucking clown man*


In spite of your poor grammar and not using the contraction, 'you're' I think it would be hard to claim this is attacking the content of Hep's post and not him personally
*



I love posts like this where the true dimwit comes out,

Click to expand...

*Unless you are calling yourself the dimwit and 'this' refers to your own reply, this too is an attack.


> *
> its just a tab bit more funny than the posts where you try hard to act smart.*


I would say this isn't as bad because maybe there are posts where Hep does try to "act" smart, but I think the intent surely is that he is 'acting' because he isn't in actuality. 

The rest of your post here is meaningless tripe. Yes, he's a kid and yes he get's excited about learning science. However, quit acting like it's a bad thing. He had an epiphany about how his mind works and now better understands rationalism and empiricism and came to realize how some of his own ideas were the result of sloppy thinking. Most of the time when we realize this, i.e trust someone we shouldn't have, not because of gut feelings but because of known history, or we reflect on a business decision and realized we created a rationalization and ignored contrary information, we get made at ourselves but then attempt not to repeat the same mistakes again. Why do you think he should be any different in this situation? Maybe because you are using the same irrational, sloppy thinking to continue supporting beliefs you have and somehow his words seem threatening to you. You are seeing someone acting in a totally rational and logical manner and all you do is come after him with a vengeance, name calling and bizarre accusations of not thinking for himself. I bet you couldn't define critical thinking without looking it up, in spite of having discussions about it and begged you to watch some videos about it.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 16, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Hurt card? Do you throw out phrases without understanding their meaning often? Where did I act hurt? Are you actually denying you attacked him?
> *Noun*
> 
> *personal attack (plural personal attacks)*
> ...


Yeah your right man, I hurt people with my attacks... I should commend Hep, and support his views. Pills make you feel better, thats science!


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## olylifter420 (Jul 16, 2012)

I aint being a dick but, your attitude has changed some man... You used to be humble, now you come across as someone who feels superior to believers.

True colors are sometimes hard to observe






Hepheastus420 said:


> No matter how intelligent the bliever is, he wouldn't put me to shame using his CTS (critical thinking skills) to prove his beliefs. The moment he says there is a god, he set aside his CTS on the subject. By simply saying "I don't know if there is or isn't a god", I would have already put more thought into it than he has.
> 
> "many come from need. A need to see your loved ones again, a need to explain your existences..."
> Believing in a god to solve those ^^ issues is ignorant. You're misinformed on the true answers. You ignore all logic just to be satisfied. I'm not asking why people believe, I'm telling you that they're ignorant for believing in the first place.
> ...


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## olylifter420 (Jul 16, 2012)

This does sound like a hurt card.

Just sayin, seems both sides share the same tactics after all





mindphuk said:


> What the fuck is wrong with you? You don't seem to have anything substantive or interesting to post so you follow Hep around to various threads just to insult him? Personal insults are classless but your trolling is even worse. You seem to be acting like Hep's deconversion is a personal affront to you, that somehow a person that used to believe and no longer does affects you in some negative way and so you lash out at him. Have some basic decency, learn to have discussions with people you disagree with in a calm, mature manner, it will gain you a modicum of respect, something you are greatly lacking ATM.
> 
> When Hep was posting here as a believer, people treated him respectfully because he wasn't an ass. He vehemently disagreed with things many of us said but he asked questions and tried valiantly to defend his beliefs until he realized they were indefensible from a position of logic and reason and that it was pure faith. Admitting a belief is held only because of faith is honest and one can disagree with faith, I can respect honesty. Losing a long-held faith position is difficult and often very depressing and certainly not deserving of the constant mocking you have targeted toward him. Of course, it's difficult, if not impossible, to mock a rationally held position which is why pretty much everything you have posted attempting to do so has been a strawman or plain personal attacks with no substance.
> 
> So answer this question, why do you find his deconversion so personally offensive that you feel you must attack him in every thread you find?


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 16, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> I aint being a dick but, your attitude has changed some man... You used to be humble, now you come across as someone who feels superior to believers.
> 
> True colors are sometimes hard to observe


Hmmm.. Not to sure how to respond to that so I'll just say that we're all equal. If your views on me have changed since I no longer believe in religion, so be it. Sorry you feel that way bro.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 16, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> I aint being a dick but, your attitude has changed some man... You used to be humble, now you come across as someone who feels superior to believers.
> 
> True colors are sometimes hard to observe


Hmm, the third person who shares my opinion about Heps arrogance? Could be the second or the fourth, I cant remember. We must be wrong though...


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 16, 2012)

And I'm not acting smart lol. I'm not smart at all and I don't use big words. I have no idea where that came from TBH.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 16, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> And I'm not acting smart lol. I'm not smart at all and I don't use big words. I have no idea where that came from TBH.


Denial....


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 16, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Denial....


Denial of acting smart? Why would I act smart? It's pretty damn intimidating getting in a debate with a bunch of intelligent minds so I just stick to what I'm confident in saying. I'd like to post in the science section of RIU but those people tend to be a hell of alot smarter than me. So for now, I'm just learning.. Or "following" right?


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## RawBudzski (Jul 16, 2012)

Stop Hurting Yourself, Stop Hurting Yourself.. .


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## olylifter420 (Jul 16, 2012)

No need for aplogies, nothing has changed. It is just an observation that caught my eye. I despise religion as much as you do man, that does not i have to change who iam or how i view the world now.






Hepheastus420 said:


> Hmmm.. Not to sure how to respond to that so I'll just say that we're all equal. If your views on me have changed since I no longer believe in religion, so be it. Sorry you feel that way bro.


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## olylifter420 (Jul 16, 2012)

Its just an observation. Dont let it get to you





Hepheastus420 said:


> And I'm not acting smart lol. I'm not smart at all and I don't use big words. I have no idea where that came from TBH.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 16, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> No need for aplogies, nothing has changed. It is just an observation that caught my eye. I despise religion as much as you do man, that does not i have to change who iam or how i view the world now.


I just said sorry since you felt that I view religious people as inferior.. I don't. I view people like CWE inferior, yes, but not because he has his beliefs (because of him as a person). Notice how I love talking to you and other religious minds on RIU, they're cool IMO.


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## Trolling (Jul 16, 2012)

RawBudzski said:


> Stop Hurting Yourself, Stop Hurting Yourself.. .


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, ty I needed that laugh lol.


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## olylifter420 (Jul 16, 2012)

Thats what im saying man, you used to treat wveryone with dignity and respect plus you gave most the benefit of the doubt.

Now, you pick and choose who you want to be cool with... I have learned plenty from being on here and one thing that stuck was to treat everyone equal





Hepheastus420 said:


> I just said sorry since you felt that I view religious people as inferior.. I don't. I view people like CWE inferior, yes, but not because he has his beliefs (because of him as a person). Notice how I love talking to you and other religious minds on RIU, they're cool IMO.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 16, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> Thats what im saying man, you used to treat wveryone with dignity and respect plus you gave most the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Now, you pick and choose who you want to be cool with... I have learned plenty from being on here and one thing that stuck was to treat everyone equal


Pick and choose? Am I supposed to like somebody who follows me thread to thread insulting my beliefs? Besides him, who do you see me arguing with?


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## olylifter420 (Jul 16, 2012)

Like i said man, you were different.




Hepheastus420 said:


> Pick and choose? Am I supposed to like somebody who follows me thread to thread insulting my beliefs? Besides him, who do you see me arguing with?


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 16, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> Like i said man, you were different.


Well dude, I guess I've changed. It happens you know.


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## olylifter420 (Jul 16, 2012)

Hey man, why you getting all hurt?

I guess ill just stay away homie... 





Hepheastus420 said:


> Well dude, I guess I've changed. It happens you know.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 16, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> Hey man, why you getting all hurt?
> 
> I guess ill just stay away homie...


lol, I'm not getting hurt. I just don't know what to say.. 
I mean I'm not trying to be a dick or choose who I like. Not my intention.

No need to stay away haha..


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## RawBudzski (Jul 16, 2012)

iiMember when both you were yung grasshoppa trolls, nieve, scared, unsure what this world would bring upon you.. but as I told you, you would be fine aslong as we&the others guided you along your way. Now look at you, many thousands of trollage posts later.

;{ You remind me of me.. .


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## olylifter420 (Jul 16, 2012)

For some reason you are right man...

You got sone funny shit always...

Specialy dat retarded dino





RawBudzski said:


> iiMember when both you were yung grasshoppa trolls, nieve, scared, unsure what this world would bring upon you.. but as I told you, you would be fine aslong as we&the others guided you along your way. Now look at you, many thousands of trollage posts later.
> 
> ;{ You remind me of me.. .


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 16, 2012)

RawBudzski said:


> iiMember when both you were yung grasshoppa trolls, nieve, scared, unsure what this world would bring upon you.. but as I told you, you would be fine aslong as we&the others guided you along your way. Now look at you, many thousands of trollage posts later.
> 
> ;{ You remind me of me.. .


Touching 

Pedobear says thanks


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## mindphuk (Jul 16, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Hmm, the third person who shares my opinion about Heps arrogance? Could be the second or the fourth, I cant remember. We must be wrong though...


Right, like you even bothered to care that numerous people were telling you the same thing, as long as they were all atheists, you are free to ignore them.


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## mindphuk (Jul 16, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Yeah your right man, I hurt people with my attacks... I should commend Hep, and support his views. Pills make you feel better, thats science!


No one said anything about hurt. Do you deny you created personal attacks instead of the more appropriate critically attacking his arguments? Are you trying to shift the goalposts again?


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## mindphuk (Jul 16, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> This does sound like a hurt card.
> 
> Just sayin, seems both sides share the same tactics after all


How exactly would my post be considered playing the hurt card? Pointing out how personal attacks are not productive logical arguments is not the same as whining about being mercilessly attacked for my views. Criticizing a member for following someone around and harassing them by going OT just to make a personal insult is not pulling the hurt card, it's a legitimate complaint. If you honestly think that I'm playing it, you are welcome to expand on this and explain it but until you do, I will just say bullshit.


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## Doer (Jul 16, 2012)

RawBudzski said:


> I think buddhism makes the most sense out of them all, if the world had to convert all @ once to a currect religion I think Big Buddha wins. <3


Yeah right. That's just a religion with celebrity. We adore it! We don't know it. It is a religion without social morals. Everyone is guilty of past lives. It is a fend for yourself religion.


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## Doer (Jul 16, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Hmm, the third person who shares my opinion about Heps arrogance? Could be the second or the fourth, I cant remember. We must be wrong though...


Hey, we aren't keeping lists of what a turd-bird you are being. Please re-connected with Self. You are creating ostisization messages. And gathering a mob.

Be a credit to the Shaman you are. You are espousing a stance you are now sullying.


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## Doer (Jul 16, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I prefer "I don't know, which means ...I don't know what".
> 
> As for telling random chance from a subtle nonrandom signal, I agree that that is very hard. Apart from objective reasons, the one thing that makes it so hard is that humans have quite a talent for perceiving pattern where there is none, then using an unconscious confirmation bias to stack the deck in favor of their "insight".
> When you say "something should not be disregarded because it's implausible", you've done a good job capturing my core sentiments. just because most ascriptions of pattern to a supernatural influence are wrong doe not guarantee that all are. With time, effort and an unfailing commitment to disciplined thought, i'm hoping that apparent instances of the supernatural, like a friend who has startlingly clear and correct memories that predate [genderless pronoun's] birth, can be brought into the fold of the understood.
> ...


Yes, and more technically, still, it is not chance or Luck. It's probablity. Chance is random. Probablitity is mathmatical. So, in the quntum diffinition, it is not impossible to turn water to wine. It is just very, very improbable. It is not completely improbable to observe actual Cold Fusion. It is, however, currently impossible to reproduce it. Also, there have never been any actual miracles, but the probablilty of seeing something unknowable exists. We tend to believe each other, alas.

So, the quantum structures (if any) in the brain, may be able to align probabilities to create luck. We may find who manages the hidden hand is none other than Self.


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## olylifter420 (Jul 16, 2012)

Like I said, both sides use the same tactics...

It just does not seem as if you are to yourself and others that may feel the same way as you, cause obviously you are writing it. I remember way back in the day when I would do the same thing, stand up for heph when he was a believer and all you all would say is " why were we playing the HURT card"... which I too would defend as a legitimate attack on our shared beliefs...

How is your statement different from mine if they both were doing the same thing?

Just because you are an atheist, does that mean a "hurt card" does not apply to you?

I dont get it with you people, doing the same thing as believers do, yet you play it as if it is nothing alike...





mindphuk said:


> How exactly would my post be considered playing the hurt card? Pointing out how personal attacks are not productive logical arguments is not the same as whining about being mercilessly attacked for my views. Criticizing a member for following someone around and harassing them by going OT just to make a personal insult is not pulling the hurt card, it's a legitimate complaint. If you honestly think that I'm playing it, you are welcome to expand on this and explain it but until you do, I will just say bullshit.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 16, 2012)

What's so hard to understand Oly?

CWE complains about Hep in a *personal way*, attacking his character, not any of the arguments that support his beliefs (because he can't). It is nothing short of a personal attack, which has led to him actually following Hep around multiple threads doing the same thing. Hep actually has grounds to go to rollitup and report it.

There is nothing wrong with attacking someones arguments they use to support their beliefs because if you don't like your beliefs being questioned, you're completely free not to bring them up. 

Do you see the difference? 

CWE attacks Hep's character, not his arguments. It's got nothing to do with atheists v. theists. If he was doing the same thing to you he'd hear the same thing from me.


To CWE, keep it up and Hep won't have to do anything, I will.


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## olylifter420 (Jul 16, 2012)

How is that different from what sativahigh was doing to me? 

why did you never step in like you have now?

is it because of my beliefs that you never wanted to step in?

I can see how you stick to your own kind per se... that is not cool and that is biased to say the least man.... I thought you people were all about equal shit... now it seems you only cover your own people... selfish pricks

and also, how is that not the hurt card?








Padawanbater2 said:


> What's so hard to understand Oly?
> 
> CWE complains Hep in a *personal way*, attacking his character, not any of the arguments that support his beliefs (because he can't). It is nothing short of a personal attack, which has led to him actually following Hep around multiple threads doing the same thing. Hep actually has grounds to go to rollitup and report it.
> 
> ...


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## Heisenberg (Jul 16, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> Like I said, both sides use the same tactics...
> 
> It just does not seem as if you are to yourself and others that may feel the same way as you, cause obviously you are writing it. I remember way back in the day when I would do the same thing, stand up for heph when he was a believer and all you all would say is " why were we playing the HURT card"... which I too would defend as a legitimate attack on our shared beliefs...
> 
> ...


Playing the hurt feelings card is different than pointing out genuine abuse. Some of what Chief is doing to Hep is borderline harassment, and most of it is based on made up charges. It's the exercising of bigotry, something I never saw you do.

Playing the hurt card is rarely about being hurt. This happens when the person was not attacked personally, but takes criticism of his ideas or arguments as if they were personal attacks. It attempts to use basic etiquette and regard for personal decency in defense of illogical or irrational stances. It's like saying, 'I know you have no problem criticizing my beliefs, but you wouldn't stoop to criticizing something personal like my looks or the way I speak, so I will act as if you did'. It is also often a pretense for employing indignation. A way to act as if questioning my beliefs is unfair.


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## olylifter420 (Jul 16, 2012)

beliefs is a wide word. what beliefs would you be talking about?

also, I remember you atheists doing the same thing to me... no one(mods) ever stepped to defend me as a person... what bullshit is this? now that heph has changed views, he is somehow more important then anyone else? or he deserves better treatment just cause he shares the same hate as you all do?

that is total bullshit man and you know it heis... you are a dude of proper etiquette and you never stood up for me as a mod neither did pad... 



and how is attacking my beliefs not harassment? sativahigh would do the same damn thing and you all never did shit, you encouraged him...

that is total bullshit especially now that this has happened...


i see how insensitive you people are and how you all are so damn selfish... at least me as a believer would stand up for anyone being attacked, no matter what their beliefs are on faith or God...


the fact that you all are biased and do not stick to your words is one reason I left this site.... you all claim to be the bearers of equality cause bullshit this and bullshit that,,, well, atheists are just as crappy as everyone else,,, 


and one other thing, the coolest atheist on here has got to be cannabineer... 

you all got a lot to learn from him... maybe your cause would be better heard if you all had neere's attitude





Heisenberg said:


> Playing the hurt feelings card is different than pointing out genuine abuse. Some of what Chief is doing to Hep is borderline harassment, and most of it is based on made up charges. It's the exercising of bigotry, something I never saw you do.
> 
> Playing the hurt card is rarely about being hurt. This happens when the person was not attacked personally, but takes criticism of his ideas or arguments as if they were personal attacks. It attempts to use basic etiquette and regard for personal decency in defense of illogical or irrational stances. It's like saying, 'I know you have no problem criticizing my beliefs, but you wouldn't stoop to criticizing something personal like my looks or the way I speak, so I will act as if you did'. It is also often a pretense for employing indignation. A way to act as if questioning my beliefs is unfair.


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## Heisenberg (Jul 16, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> beliefs is a wide word. what beliefs would you be talking about?


I was speaking hypothetically. No particular beliefs in mind, I was just explaining an example of the hurt card. You were wondering if atheists were exempt from the hurt card, I was trying to show that anyone, atheist or not, is using the hurt card if it fits the explanation. But at the same time, not every instance of saying "you hurt me" qualifies as playing the hurt card.



> also, I remember you atheists doing the same thing to me... no one(mods) ever stepped to defend me as a person... what bullshit is this? now that heph has changed views, he is somehow more important then anyone else? or he deserves better treatment just cause he shares the same hate as you all do?
> 
> that is total bullshit man and you know it heis... you are a dude of proper etiquette and you never stood up for me as a mod neither did pad.


I have nothing to do with modding here, and I have always defended science and reason. I remember teaching you how to multi-quote, going to great lengths to explain myself to you, and it wasn't that long ago i used you as an example of someone with opposing views who has taught me something. I have always welcomed your participation here. You sure seem edgy lately.

.. 





> and how is attacking my beliefs not harassment? sativahigh would do the same damn thing and you all never did shit, you encouraged him...


Dude, I have had epic convos with Sativa and all but demanded he stop being abusive. Never once did I cut him slack because we agree on atheism, and I am sure he would agree. I always speak out when i see unfair treatment. As i said, I have no mod powers here, and I like that because it forces me to talk through things and face the challenge. I prefer to keep my mod abilities to areas I have no emotional connection to, like hydroponics. 





> i see how insensitive you people are and how you all are so damn selfish... at least me as a believer would stand up for anyone being attacked, no matter what their beliefs are on faith or God...
> 
> 
> the fact that you all are biased and do not stick to your words is one reason I left this site.... you all claim to be the bearers of equality cause bullshit this and bullshit that,,, well, atheists are just as crappy as everyone else,,,


 I agree with you, atheists are just as crappy as everyone else. There is nothing about atheism which makes the atheist special. It is nothing more than an indication of which way you fall on a very specific belief.


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 16, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> How is that different from what sativahigh was doing to me? why did you never step in like you have now?is it because of my beliefs that you never wanted to step in?I can see how you stick to your own kind per se... that is not cool and that is biased to say the least man.... I thought you people were all about equal shit... now it seems you only cover your own people... selfish pricksand also, how is that not the hurt card?


Did you just skip over my previous post directed to you? All of these questions were answered.

The only thing I'm biased towards is logic and reason. The fact that the most logical and reasonable arguments come from the atheist camp isn't my fault. 

You feel as if you were personally attacked because your beliefs were indefensible, which isn't the same as attacking your character. 

If I said "Oly is ugly" - that's an attack on your character, you as a person. That's not permitted.

If on the other hand I said "Oly, I think your beliefs are wrong and here's why..." - that's an attack on your beliefs, which is completely allowed because like I told you before, you have the option to say "oh, well those are my beliefs that I hold based on faith", and keep them completely to yourself, nobody is forcing anyone to explain what they believe, they do that completely on their own. 

Are you seeing the difference yet? One, Hep has no defense against CWE's harassment in any reasonable context, all he can say is "no I'm not". CWE's attack isn't asking to be reasoned with, all it's doing is baiting for an emotional response because CWE isn't intelligent enough to formulate any actual rational rebuttal to Hep's posts, all he can do is sling personal attacks and hope to piss him off enough to reply in the same kind of emotionally fueled way. It's been his repertoire since he's joined. 


So yeah, that's the difference. You probably still won't see the distinction and keep calling foul, but this post is as far as I'm personally taking any further explanations.


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## Hepheastus420 (Jul 16, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> beliefs is a wide word. what beliefs would you be talking about?
> 
> also, I remember you atheists doing the same thing to me... no one(mods) ever stepped to defend me as a person... what bullshit is this? now that heph has changed views, he is somehow more important then anyone else? or he deserves better treatment just cause he shares the same hate as you all do?
> 
> ...


When I was religious I was still friends with many of the atheists here. Some would tell sativa high that he was going about his arguments towards me the wrong way. So it's not because we share disbelief in god that they're telling CWE to back off. It's because CWE is just attacking for no reason. 

And atheists don't believe in equality, we just don't believe in god.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jul 16, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> What's so hard to understand Oly?
> 
> CWE complains about Hep in a *personal way*, attacking his character, not any of the arguments that support his beliefs (because he can't). It is nothing short of a personal attack, which has led to him actually following Hep around multiple threads doing the same thing. Hep actually has grounds to go to rollitup and report it.
> 
> ...


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## Doer (Jul 16, 2012)

Self portraits are not compelling in religious discussions.


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## cannabineer (Jul 16, 2012)




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## mindphuk (Jul 20, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> That's actually a pretty serious accusation and I don't think you could actually prove it, let's say using the legal standard of reasonable doubt, no wait, let's use the less stringent - preponderance of evidence. IOW, back it up or else start getting used to people putting you in the same category of proven liar, Hovind


Funny how rpgdude sort of disappeared after this...


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## MHA1990 (Jul 24, 2012)

This is getting ridiculous, now this entire thread is just personal attacks, can't we just accept it that some people have different beliefs and put on our big boy pants and walk away. Spirituality and faith vary from person to person, it's something that shouldn't be paraded like a show pony at a county fair. We more or less all believe the same thing that life can be explained by something immensely powerful beyond our wildest imaginations, except you call it god and I call it science. You think god molded the earth and man, I believe a giant explosion caused the expansion of our universe and the creation of our planet as we know it. We just have a different way of seeing it.


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## Da Almighty Jew (Jul 27, 2012)

I use to pray all the time. After praying all the time and nothing happening for me i slowly started to loose any faith in any type of god given help. Plus i found myself cursing god out all the time saing why wont you fucking help, why did you make this happen to me? I slowly gave up on the anger and the faith. I now realize i make my own destiny and control everything that happens to me one way or another. Im not quite sure there really is a GOD after all, who knows? I do believe that peoples souls go somewhere. Not sure if its reincarnation or what.


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## Zaehet Strife (Jul 27, 2012)

If what makes you...you, is merely what you have gathered from the experiences you have been through, and the pieces you have taken, or left, from everyone you ever met in this life, and you do not remember your "past" life. That would mean that who you are, or more so, who we all pretend to be, will not get carried over to the next life...assuming we have been reincarnated. 

Would that not mean that our souls (if we have them), aren't made up of who we are? Or who we pretend to be?


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## Da Almighty Jew (Jul 27, 2012)

I think our souls are made up of who we are/pretend to be to a certain extent. But i think our intuition and what we gravitate to in life was possibly in our psyche/soul all along.


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## cannabineer (Jul 28, 2012)

MHA1990 said:


> This is getting ridiculous, now this entire thread is just personal attacks, can't we just accept it that some people have different beliefs and put on our big boy pants and walk away. Spirituality and faith vary from person to person, it's something that shouldn't be paraded like a show pony at a county fair. We more or less all believe the same thing that life can be explained by something immensely powerful beyond our wildest imaginations, except you call it god and I call it science. You think god molded the earth and man, I believe a giant explosion caused the expansion of our universe and the creation of our planet as we know it. We just have a different way of seeing it.


There is one basic difference between placing your allegiance in a God with a plan and in science.
The ones who choose science are expressing a belief that the immense will not stay beyond our wildest imagination ... that our destiny is to become the masters of it all. In an interesting inversion, if you like the conceit that man is made in God's image, it is our birthright, destiny and duty to grow up into the place left vacant by the external Gods of our racial infancy.

The ones who choose an external God are accepting of the idea that we will forever be subordinates, led like sheep. Our ideas of God stem from our earliest days as philosophers. They are necessarily primitive. What bothers me most is that they are being energetically protected from evolving by the wardens of orthodoxy. There's no growth process, and in its worst incarnations, a promise of an imminent end to all things, removing the mandate to grow, to keep up with our expanding sense of our place in nature. cn


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## Heisenberg (Jul 28, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> The ones who choose an external God are accepting of the idea that we will forever be subordinates, led like sheep.


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