# Testing the old "Defoliation" Argument



## purplehays1 (Jul 21, 2014)

So ive seen a bunch of threads with people arguing and shooting out claims about how great or terrible cutting leaves off cannabis plants is. I have always used a technique of topping pretty early and then removing all but the best 4-6 branches before flowering and just keeping an even canopy and only removing the leaves that block top bud sites. I am about 6 weeks in veg and have 4 plants that were very similar yesterday before i chopped the hell out of 2 of them. I took every fan leaf that was blocking a new growth site. On the other two i did almost nothing. All 4 plants were trained the same, topped/LST into 8-10 strong branches. I will train one the same as i have always, leave one full bush and continue to defoliate the two. My signature has a link to my journal if you want to follow along and see the results. I will flower as soon as they look to have recovered.


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## Silky Shagsalot (Jul 21, 2014)

i do a lot of trimming/pruning, but it sounds like you cut like a maniac. 4 to 6, 8-10 branches??? i mostly trim leaves, not branches. i trim branches in veg/ a little in flower. but i have more than ten growth tips.


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## Sativied (Jul 21, 2014)

I posted in this thread.


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## purplehays1 (Jul 22, 2014)

4-6 main branches was on a stretchy OG plant, wouldn't be a good idea on this short bushy skunk cross, and i would have taken the branches weeks ago if iw as going that route. All 4 plants will be left with there main branches, all have 7-10 currently. The difference will be where they are left a canopy. 

The 2 i am "defoliating" will not have a true canopy, they will be quite bare towards the top as any leaf blocking lower bud will be taken from them. 

I will leave one fully untrimmed, just a bushy monster of leaves fighting each other.

And one i will use my traditional approach of trimming most bottom growth that does not get good light, and keeping a dense even canopy just below the top nugs. Only removing leaves that block top bud sites or are too low to get good light through the canopy.


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## purplehays1 (Jul 22, 2014)

Sativied said:


> I posted in this thread.


Good old troll Sativied, did u say something so retarded even you were embarrassed and had to edit it?


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## Sativied (Jul 22, 2014)

_You_ are "testing the defoliation argument" yet _I_ am the troll?


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## purplehays1 (Jul 22, 2014)

Sativied said:


> _You_ are "testing the defoliation argument" yet _I_ am the troll?


You implying you have such vast knowledge as to think you know everything about cultivation and no test is needed?

Love your modesty


How is testing a hotly argued concept trolling?


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## Sativied (Jul 22, 2014)

Lies.


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## purplehays1 (Jul 22, 2014)

u make less sense with every post....


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## Sativied (Jul 22, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> You implying you have such vast knowledge as to think you know everything about cultivation and no test is needed?


Not just about cultivation...





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## purplehays1 (Jul 22, 2014)

Ignored.

Such a loser u have to go out of your way to post this kind of trash on my legit posts i don't need to read any more.


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## Sativied (Jul 22, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> Ignored.
> 
> Such a loser u have to go out of your way to post this kind of trash on my legit posts i don't need to read any more.


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## ayr0n (Jul 22, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> *Ignored.*
> 
> Such a loser u have to go out of your way to post this kind of trash on my legit posts i don't need to read any more.





Sativied said:


>


Lol Sat you're on a roll. That's the 2nd dude today


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## ayr0n (Jul 22, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> So ive seen a bunch of threads with people arguing and shooting out claims about how great or terrible cutting leaves off cannabis plants is. I have always used a technique of topping pretty early and then removing all but the best 4-6 branches before flowering and just keeping an even canopy and only removing the leaves that block top bud sites. I am about 6 weeks in veg and have 4 plants that were very similar yesterday before i chopped the hell out of 2 of them. I took every fan leaf that was blocking a new growth site. On the other two i did almost nothing. All 4 plants were trained the same, topped/LST into 8-10 strong branches. I will train one the same as i have always, leave one full bush and continue to defoliate the two. My signature has a link to my journal if you want to follow along and see the results. I will flower as soon as they look to have recovered.


I'm doing something similar just because everyone arguing over one way or the other wasn't good enough for me - had to see it. Got 7 plants going, 4 are gonna be untrained completely, one is getting topped, one is gonna get heavily defoliated n one is gonna get a light defoliation...Just wanna see the results

both arguments seem good to me and both methods seem to work fine for different growers...hard to wade through forum debates and decide what's what


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## Sativied (Jul 22, 2014)

ayr0n said:


> Lol Sat you're on a roll. That's the 2nd dude today


I will proudly take credit for this guy but not for @BenFranklin flipping after merely being asked to back up his claims other than with the claim itself....


























....that was pure luck.


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## Sativied (Jul 22, 2014)

ayr0n said:


> hard to wade through forum debates and decide what's what


Is that why you cut the middle fingers off?


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## ayr0n (Jul 22, 2014)

Sativied said:


> Is that why you cut the middle fingers off?


Lmao that one seriously wasn't cut at all haha


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## CaretakerDad (Jul 22, 2014)

Unless your plants are all identical clones then what you are doing is interesting but not scientifically valid. You should have a control group(s) and a subject group(s) and they should be assigned randomly and done in sets of 3 under identical conditions.


Oh yeah and defoliation is bad practice which is often confused with pruning. Judicious pruning should be done on many varieties to increase air flow or remove sucker growth both of which help to reduce the chance of disease. Opening up budsites to the light by removing functioning fan leaves shows a fundamental lack of understanding regarding plant physiology.


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## ayr0n (Jul 22, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> Unless your plants are all identical clones then what you are doing is interesting but not scientifically valid. You should have a control group(s) and a subject group(s) and they should be assigned randomly and done in sets of 3 under identical conditions.
> 
> 
> Oh yeah and defoliation is bad practice which is often confused with pruning. Judicious pruning should be done on many varieties to increase air flow or remove sucker growth both of which help to reduce the chance of disease. Opening up budsites to the light by removing functioning fan leaves shows a fundamental lack of understanding regarding plant physiology.


I'm more interested in the effects of attempting to redirect energy and hormones into different areas, and possibly increasing gas exchange since my plants have almost no vertical growth and have leaves literally laying on top of each other...It's not scientific at all - with no control - but it's fun to play w/ them  If the argument is whether or not a part of a plant needs to be getting direct sunlight/light to develop I'd definitely say that is not the case...As long as photosynthesis is occurring and the plant is up taking nutrients then all parts of it should be able to develop - even those in the shade...


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## CaretakerDad (Jul 22, 2014)

ayr0n said:


> I'm more interested in the effects of attempting to redirect energy and hormones into different areas, and possibly increasing gas exchange since my plants have almost no vertical growth and have leaves literally laying on top of each other...It's not scientific at all - with no control - but it's fun to play w/ them  If the argument is whether or not a part of a plant needs to be getting direct sunlight/light to develop I'd definitely say that is not the case...As long as photosynthesis is occurring and the plant is up taking nutrients then all parts of it should be able to develop - even those in the shade...


If increasing gas exchange is your goal then removing the leaves is counterproductive as you can see in the illustration below. Gas is ONLY exchanged through Stoma which are located on the underside of the leaf. Another important function that is often overlooked is that of the guard cells which open to allow water vapor to escape which draws nutrients up through the roots and closes when temperatures are too high or water is not available at the roots. These are also ONLY located on the leaf. Therefore removing fan leaves impairs the plants ability to produce sugars, capture energy and regulate its internal temperature and moisture levels.


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## ayr0n (Jul 22, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> If increasing gas exchange is your goal then removing the leaves is counterproductive as you can see in the illustration below. Gas is ONLY exchanged through Stoma which are located on the underside of the leaf. Another important function that is often overlooked is that of the guard cells which open to allow water vapor to escape which draws nutrients up through the roots and closes when temperatures are too high or water is not available at the roots. These are also ONLY located on the leaf. Therefore removing fan leaves impairs the plants ability to produce sugars, capture energy and regulate its internal temperature and moisture levels.


Lol I just threw the gas exchange in for a bonus  but really If a leaf is laying on top of another then the one on top would in theory have its ability to exchange gas restricted to an extent right?

Honestly if u saw my girls I think you'd wanna prune them , they r just a big leaf pile atm. Stretch = -1

I promise I'm in the no defoliation club but I just wanna see what the hype is about with cutting up plants so I'm doing it on a couple.

Also these are autos so I want to see how it impacts the yield seeing how they have very little time to veg n recover from ANY damage..

I'm expecting the ones that are being defoliated to yield less than their untouched counterparts (same strains) but I'll let the results speak rather than guessing.

I'm certainly no botonist and not even an experienced grower but I have to see it to believe it so I'm giving it a go. There prob really is no benefit to removing leaves aside from increasing airflow and reducing the chances of pests n molds - but there is also no doubt in my mind that if a part of the plant is removed then more energy will be directed to growth in other areas, even if the plant's ability to produce energy is hindered by the removal of a leaf..

It's like UB said in the last defoliation thread I read - every new crop of noobs brings in another discussion about defoliation...I'm part of the new crop of noobs


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## MOON SHINER (Jul 22, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> So ive seen a bunch of threads with people arguing and shooting out claims about how great or terrible cutting leaves off cannabis plants is. I have always used a technique of topping pretty early and then removing all but the best 4-6 branches before flowering and just keeping an even canopy and only removing the leaves that block top bud sites. I am about 6 weeks in veg and have 4 plants that were very similar yesterday before i chopped the hell out of 2 of them. I took every fan leaf that was blocking a new growth site. On the other two i did almost nothing. All 4 plants were trained the same, topped/LST into 8-10 strong branches. I will train one the same as i have always, leave one full bush and continue to defoliate the two. My signature has a link to my journal if you want to follow along and see the results. I will flower as soon as they look to have recovered.


I'm doing a similar test also. 9 Clones all from the same mother. In 18/6 for 4 weeks, then moved to bloom tent. All of them topped once. 3 plants I defoliated from branches to lower bud sides to leaves at day 21, basically anything in the shade, 1 of them trimmed VERY heavy. The other 6 have not been touched at all, I'm at day 27 so time will tell. Either way the ones with some trimming look SO much better as a nice clean indoor look of a perfect plant, not some wild over grown plant choking itself.

Then again that is why I'm running a test also, just to see and for my own amusement. Hope you remember to update us, Subed up!


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## purplehays1 (Jul 22, 2014)

> It's like UB said in the last defoliation thread I read - every new crop of noobs brings in another discussion about defoliation...I'm part of the new crop of noobs


The question is has UB even tried to defoliate? Does he only have a 2x2x5ft tent to work with?


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## ayr0n (Jul 23, 2014)

Just for fun - what do you do if a big Ass fan leaf is holding down a bud site like this:
 
A - cut off the fan leaf
B - tie it to the side
C - nothing, just hope it grows around it


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## harris hawk (Jul 23, 2014)

Each strain requires different defoliation - Indica's like defoliation but Sativa's not so much, but with their leaf shape not much is required anyway, Remember - after the 4th week of flower the plant has no use for "fan" leaves - a goof time to defoliate. If one defoliated to much you will really "stunt" the plants growth Hey goggle"defoliation of marijuana plants" much info!


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## CaretakerDad (Jul 23, 2014)

harris hawk said:


> Each strain requires different defoliation - Indica's like defoliation but Sativa's not so much, but with their leaf shape not much is required anyway, Remember - after the 4th week of flower the plant has no use for "fan" leaves - a goof time to defoliate. If one defoliated to much you will really "stunt" the plants growth Hey goggle"defoliation of marijuana plants" much info!


Bullshit!!!!!


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## Jbone77 (Jul 23, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> The question is has UB even tried to defoliate? Does he only have a 2x2x5ft tent to work with?


UB also says a real gardener should know what makes a plant tick and should be able to apply the propper nutes in the propped ratios, and then talks shit about hydro guys who mix their own raw salts and says they should just use Dynagro and that supersoil is a joke, he also says bulb spectrum is just hype and that lumens are relevant and then recommends full SPECTRUM bulbs, see where this is going? If you want to take indoor growing advice from someone who got bored and did an indoor grow in 1972 then as he says so often, a fool and his money are soon parted. None of that was directed at you I was just piggy backin off your post. And I don't defoliate


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## Jbone77 (Jul 23, 2014)

harris hawk said:


> Each strain requires different defoliation - Indica's like defoliation but Sativa's not so much, but with their leaf shape not much is required anyway, Remember - after the 4th week of flower the plant has no use for "fan" leaves - a goof time to defoliate. If one defoliated to much you will really "stunt" the plants growth Hey goggle"defoliation of marijuana plants" much info!


How could you possibly "stunt" the plant by removing something it doesn't use?


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 23, 2014)

ayr0n said:


> It's like UB said in the last defoliation thread I read - every new crop of noobs brings in another discussion about defoliation...I'm part of the new crop of noobs


Not again! Unfuckin' believable........


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 23, 2014)

Jbone77 said:


> UB also says a real gardener should know what makes a plant tick


correct



> and should be able to apply the propper nutes in the propped ratios,


yep



> and then talks shit about hydro guys who mix their own raw salts


yep, cause it's a waste of time and none will get it right, and that includes you



> and says they should just use Dynagro


best bang for the buck


> and that supersoil is a joke,


There is no such thing as "supersoil", at least I've never seen lab analysis of someone's hype. Guess I need to call my soil concoction "super soil" so I can be cool too LOL 



> he also says bulb spectrum is just hype and that lumens are relevant and then recommends full SPECTRUM bulbs,


Shit-fer-brains, if you're gonna put words in my mouth as least it get right and in the right context.



> see where this is going?


Sho do. Can you say "trolling"? I knew you could. 

Uncle Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 23, 2014)

harris hawk said:


> Each strain requires different defoliation - Indica's like defoliation but Sativa's not so much, but with their leaf shape not much is required anyway, Remember - after the 4th week of flower the plant has no use for "fan" leaves - a goof time to defoliate. If one defoliated to much you will really "stunt" the plants growth Hey goggle"defoliation of marijuana plants" much info!


Mo noob talk. See mah sig line.


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## chuck estevez (Jul 23, 2014)

harris hawk said:


> Each strain requires different defoliation - Indica's like defoliation but Sativa's not so much, but with their leaf shape not much is required anyway, *Remember - after the 4th week of flower the plant has no use for "fan" leaves* - a goof time to defoliate. If one defoliated to much you will really "stunt" the plants growth Hey goggle"defoliation of marijuana plants" much info!


 that's a new one on me. Do you have some proof, or is this something you pulled out of your ass?


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## ayr0n (Jul 23, 2014)

Lmfao heeeere we go!


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## Commander Strax (Jul 23, 2014)




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## Jbone77 (Jul 23, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> correct
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well princess, you posted in the Lumen thread and said all of us saying lumens were irrelevant and that spectrum/par was what was important, you said we were all pitching theories and as usual you pitch a full spectrum bulb, so obviously spectrum is kinda important dont ya think? What is the definition of lumens again?


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## chuck estevez (Jul 23, 2014)

it's official now,


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## ayr0n (Jul 23, 2014)

Is it too late for my plant to recover from defoliation?


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 23, 2014)

ayr0n said:


> Is it too late for my plant to recover from defoliation?


Now that IS funny!


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## Commander Strax (Jul 23, 2014)

ayr0n said:


> Is it too late for my plant to recover from defoliation?


Nope, that is perfect... now flush for a week and harvest


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## ayr0n (Jul 23, 2014)

Commander Strax said:


> Nope, that is perfect... now flush for a week and harvest


Do I have to leave the lights out for 72 hours first and then flush with 75x the pot size worth of water? Also could you estimate my yield on this plant?


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## Commander Strax (Jul 23, 2014)

ayr0n said:


> Do I have to leave the lights out for 72 hours first and then flush with 75x the pot size worth of water? Also could you estimate my yield on this plant?


you should do a week of lights out before the flip to 12/12

yes on the water at least 75x

about a pound


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## Sativied (Jul 23, 2014)

Ignore ^THAT^ @purplehays1 



chuck estevez said:


> it's official now,


Mission complete.


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## ayr0n (Jul 23, 2014)

Commander Strax said:


> you should do a week of lights out before the flip to 12/12
> 
> yes on the water at least 75x
> 
> about a pound


What if you just pour this in?








Then only like 35x pot size in water should suffice?




Okay okay I'm done. Sorry Purp


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## Commander Strax (Jul 23, 2014)

ayr0n said:


> What if you just pour this in?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


or anything that has the word flush on it


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## Commander Strax (Jul 23, 2014)

defoliation works on cats too


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## ayr0n (Jul 23, 2014)

Commander Strax said:


> defoliation works on cats too


And humans:
http://rollitup.org/t/should-women-be-required-to.832152/


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## CaretakerDad (Jul 23, 2014)

Commander Strax said:


> defoliation works on cats too



Have I mentioned before just how much I appreciate and enjoy the defoliation pics? They make the aggravation of these threads well worth the time.


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## purplehays1 (Jul 23, 2014)

ok well if anyone wants to actually see the results,and not a pissing competition between a bunch of assholes, watch my journal.

I can tell already that some of the people that respond so aggressively on these threads are often WRONG and thus very defensive. I am testing this out of my own curiosity and to see what works best in MY TINY 2x2x5 flowering area. I can tell you already the bushy plants are taking up more area in the tent with the same amount of bud sites, so they better produce more.


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## Commander Strax (Jul 23, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> ok well if anyone wants to actually see the results,and not a pissing competition between a bunch of assholes, watch my journal.


pissing assholes? sounds uncomfortable


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 23, 2014)

Another circle jerk. Last one to defoliate eats the cracker.


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## MOON SHINER (Jul 23, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Another circle jerk. Last one to defoliate eats the cracker.


...f*ck, I wanted a cracker...with tuna, and hot sauce.....


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## harris hawk (Jul 25, 2014)

Jbone77 said:


> How could you possibly "stunt" the plant by removing something it doesn't use?


BY removing the feeder leaves other than fan leaves


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 25, 2014)

Plant does use them, this Jbone kid doesn't have a clue.


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## harris hawk (Jul 25, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> that's a new one on me. Do you have some proof, or is this something you pulled out of your ass?


If you are a seasoned cultivator you know what I mean, no need to call people names. your replies reflect on what kind of person you are


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## chuck estevez (Jul 25, 2014)

harris hawk said:


> If you are a seasoned cultivator you know what I mean, no need to call people names. your replies reflect on what kind of person you are


I asked if you pulled that out of your ass? I didn't call you any names, reading comprehension, probably why you think the plant doesn't use it's food storage when it needs it the most.Seasoned grower,lmfao.

and i should have known you wouldn't have anything to back it up other than BS.


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## CaretakerDad (Jul 25, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> I asked if you pulled that out of your ass? I didn't call you any names, reading comprehension, probably why you think the plant doesn't use it's food storage when it needs it the most.Seasoned grower,lmfao.
> 
> and i should have known you wouldn't have anything to back it up other than BS.



Chuck, Chuck, Chuck we have talked about this many times. Stop with the science and silly details like citations as it makes the defoliators heads hurt and that is abusive.

And again RIU this "technique" and others like it need their (or there or they're for some of you) own forum called EXPERIMENTAL TECHNIQUES. This junk science, yes junk until PROVEN otherwise, does not belong in Advanced Cultivation (which it is not) or in the Newbie Section where they already can't keep their hands off their plants enough to know they're there. (Pretty F'in funny eh?)


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## Commander Strax (Jul 25, 2014)

harris hawk said:


> If you are a seasoned cultivator you know what I mean, no need to call people names. your replies reflect on what kind of person you are


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## Sativied (Jul 25, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> I asked if you pulled that out of your ass?


They don't pull it out of a hat, they don't pull it out of their ass, they pull it out of an asshat. 

I'm starting to see a trend, need to collect new memes.... the old ones for ridiculing arguments are non-applicable, need something like...







Still a work in progress


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## ayr0n (Jul 25, 2014)

Even if they were receiving absolutely no light wouldn't they still be beneficial by storing energy, transporting / moving goods, exchanging gases, etc...? Seems like cutting off a leaf is equivalent to pouring a little bit of your nutes down the sink...


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## Sativied (Jul 25, 2014)

ayr0n said:


> Even if they were receiving absolutely no light wouldn't they still be beneficial by storing energy, transporting / moving goods, exchanging gases, etc...? Seems like cutting off a leaf is equivalent to pouring a little bit of your nutes down the sink...


It is indeed (although "receiving _absolutely_ no light" is never the case unless the light is off, else you wouldn't be able to see the leaf either). Look into mobile vs immobile plant nutrients, just a random example: http://masteringhorticulture.blogspot.nl/2012/01/mobile-vs-immobile-nutrients.html and xylem and phloem translocation from sources to sinks.

http://www.biologyreference.com/Ta-Va/Translocation.html

_Translocation is the movement of materials from leaves to other tissues throughout the plant. Plants produce __carbohydrates__ (sugars) in their leaves by photosynthesis, but nonphotosynthetic parts of the plant also require carbohydrates and other _*organic *_and nonorganic materials. For this reason, nutrients are translocated from sources (__regions of excess carbohydrates, primarily mature leaves__) to sinks (regions where the carbohydrate is needed). Some important sinks are roots, flowers, fruits, stems, and developing leaves._ _*Leaves are particularly interesting in this regard because they are sinks when they are young and become sources later, when they are about *_[make that very very roughly] _*half grown**.*_


As you can see the nonsense some defoliators claim about leaves costing energy (which is the same as claiming they become sinks) is just that, nonsense. Of course to create a new leaf energy is required captured by other leaves, they start out as sinks, but once it created enough chlorophyll to perform plenty of photosynthesis to capture enough energy for itself to grow larger and have energy left to spare with other new leaves/buds/roots it becomes a source. After the transition, during flowering, they are all sources (of energy and indeed reserves).

It also goes a little further than pouring nutes down the sink, the 'nutes' in the leaves are already processed ready to be transported and used. So in a way, you'd also be pouring light (electricity, money) down the sink. Now imagine a LED grower who defoliates


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## chuck estevez (Jul 25, 2014)

Sativied said:


> It is indeed (although "receiving _absolutely_ no light" is never the case unless the light is off, else you wouldn't be able to see the leaf either). Look into mobile vs immobile plant nutrients, just a random example: http://masteringhorticulture.blogspot.nl/2012/01/mobile-vs-immobile-nutrients.html and xylem and phloem translocation from sources to sinks.
> 
> http://www.biologyreference.com/Ta-Va/Translocation.html
> 
> ...


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## purplehays1 (Jul 25, 2014)

so it appears that the defoliating slowed the vertical growth and increased lower growth, not unexpected. All plants look very happy and vigorous but the bushy one appears to be growing faster.

My test may be doomed, it it is going to be hard to account for the fact that the untrimmed plant is taking up twice as much space as the others now. Pic in journal.


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## Sativied (Jul 25, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> My test may be doomed,


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 25, 2014)

ayr0n said:


> Even if they were receiving absolutely no light wouldn't they still be beneficial by storing energy, transporting / moving goods, exchanging gases, etc...? Seems like cutting off a leaf is equivalent to pouring a little bit of your nutes down the sink...


Exactly! And just because our eyes see a shadow does not mean that area of the leaf is not receiving light. Plants see light differently than we humans do.


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## CaretakerDad (Jul 25, 2014)

*"My test may be doomed, it it is going to be hard to account for the fact that the untrimmed plant is taking up twice as much space as the others now."*

It would seem to me that the test is complete......just sayin'


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## purplehays1 (Jul 25, 2014)

> It would seem to me that the test is complete......just sayin'



Well unless the bush yields 2x the other ones then its not worth the space.

The test may be doomed because i cant control her and will have to trim her off the other 3. Don't confuse growing a large plant with lots of leaves with growing a lot of potent bud. This is not a test of whether a pot plant grows better with leaves, we all know it does, we are asking whether it BUDS more when it is leafy, who cares if u can grow a big leafy plant.


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## purplehays1 (Jul 25, 2014)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Exactly! And just because our eyes see a shadow does not mean that area of the leaf is not receiving light. Plants see light differently than we humans do.


Ill show good picks of the bush when the lights come on. It takes all my willpower to not trim her. So many leaves they are doing battle, leaves on top of leaves on top of leaves. I trimmed the undergrowth on the 3rd plant, she looks good too, but def not growing like the bushy one.


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## MightyMike530 (Jul 25, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> My test may be doomed, it it is going to be hard to account for the fact that the untrimmed plant is taking up twice as much space as the others now. Pic in journal.


You cant just stop the science in the middle of the experiment, see it through to the end.


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## BDOGKush (Jul 25, 2014)

So we're talking something completely different than say lolipopping or clearing out the under canopy of a scrog, right? Sorry, I'm not quite understanding how you're referring to defoliation. You're removing fan leaves to expose buds with the theory that more light directly hitting a bud will increase yield?


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## purplehays1 (Jul 25, 2014)

MightyMike530 said:


> You cant just stop the science in the middle of the experiment, see it through to the end.


I will try



> You're removing fan leaves to expose buds with the theory that more light directly hitting a bud will increase yield?


Basically, but its more the theory that u can get more light where it is needed. I dont think light on the bud sites is the direct cause, i think it will be that the bud sites will be much longer and connect to each other up the stem because the entire branch of new growth will be getting light. I have never tried this but was recommended by many friends for small areas. The plant have responded very well. They are not as tall, but they have formed what i guess ill call an under canopy. Under the 8 main tops that have been defoliated there is a thick undergrowth. My thinking is that the main tops will still bulk up as normal but the lower bud sites/growth will bulk up more.


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## BDOGKush (Jul 25, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> Basically, but its more the theory that u can get more light where it is needed. I dont think light on the bud sites is the direct cause, i think it will be that the bud sites will be much longer and connect to each other up the stem because the entire branch of new growth will be getting light. I have never tried this but was recommended by many friends for small areas. The plant have responded very well. They are not as tall, but they have formed what i guess ill call an under canopy. Under the 8 main tops that have been defoliated there is a thick undergrowth. My thinking is that the main tops will still bulk up as normal but the lower bud sites/growth will bulk up more.


Gotcha' I've never tried it but I do clear out everything under my scrog screen not sure if that makes me part of the defoliator club, I try not to mess with my fan leaves.


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## purplehays1 (Jul 25, 2014)

BDOGKush said:


> Gotcha' I've never tried it but I do clear out everything under my scrog screen not sure if that makes me part of the defoliator club, I try not to mess with my fan leaves.


What you are describing is what i have always done, i never used a screen but would stake the plants and pull them and tie them down. Clear all the lower growth and keep an even canopy, this is what i am doing with the 4th plant. Only remove leaves that are blocking top bud sites.


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## Jbone77 (Jul 25, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Plant does use them, this Jbone kid doesn't have a clue.


Well princess, I questioned what he was saying, I didnt make the statement you non reading sum bitch, and I even ended the statement saying I dont remove leaves. Il type slower from now on so your old non growin ass doesnt need to read so fast. And when you learn that lumens are meaningless to plants and that spectrum is important let me know. Dumb ass


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## jacksthc (Jul 25, 2014)

hi jbone77 defoliation does work and can increase your yield a lot but to be honest you need to have been growing for years before you try this and even then so many growers mess this up I would say defoliation is not a great way to train your plants because of this, TBH topping and LST can you give you some great results with less problems


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## Jbone77 (Jul 25, 2014)

jacksthc said:


> hi jbone77 defoliation does work and can increase your yield a lot but to be honest you need to have been growing for years before you try this and even then so many growers mess this up I would say defoliation is not a great way to train your plants because of this, TBH topping and LST can you give you some great results with less problems


What does any of this have to do with me? I could give a shit less if a guy defoliates or not, my question was to the guy who said a plant doesnt use fans after week 4 of flower but said you will stunt the plant if you remove too many, hello, if the plant doesnt use them you wouldnt stunt it, and then princess ben chimed in like I was endorsing defoliation. I dont remove fan leaves, I am a fan of topping princess style and supercropping and then let em go. I dont care if a guy thinks defoliation works, il have some fun with the thread but honestly IDGAF, its not my weed. lol. Defoliate away. But like you said, you need to be an experienced grower who has been growing for years to understand it, iv only been growing weed seriously since 99 so I dont have the experience to comprehend it yet. But atleast I am a grower and not like princess who grew a plant in 72 and another in 83 before trying an indoor plant under a street lamp in 85 and declared myself a guru. The funny thing is when these threads come up, princess ben will always chime in and try to sound clever and say something like "well just try it and see for yourself", this thread was doing exactly that, dude said fuck it, im gonna defoliate some and not others and see the difference, I can respect that, he wants to see for himself what the results are, but here we are , princess ben is talking shit to a guy who took his advice and said "fuck it, il see for myself ", that is pretty fuckin funny to me.


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## purplehays1 (Jul 25, 2014)

lets not turn this into another off topic argument


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 26, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> Ill show good picks of the bush when the lights come on. It takes all my willpower to not trim her. So many leaves they are doing battle, leaves on top of leaves on top of leaves. I trimmed the undergrowth on the 3rd plant, she looks good too, but def not growing like the bushy one.





purplehays1 said:


> so it appears that the defoliating slowed the vertical growth and increased lower growth, not unexpected. All plants look very happy and vigorous but the bushy one appears to be growing faster.
> 
> My test may be doomed, it it is going to be hard to account for the fact that the untrimmed plant is taking up twice as much space as the others now. Pic in journal.


Not doomed at all. Bet the big bitch will out yield the untrimmed plants by the sound of it. Thats only a fail for those lost souls that religiously believe in raping plants.


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## harris hawk (Jul 26, 2014)

Hey chuck estevez. thought this site is for helping people with their growing issues. You do-not have to put people down or call names. People like you drives people away from this site - thought this was a friendly site. I feel sorry for you May God bless you unless you do not believe in God. What kind of names are you going to call me now?


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## chuck estevez (Jul 26, 2014)

harris hawk said:


> Hey chuck estevez. thought this site is for helping people with their growing issues. You do-not have to put people down or call names. People like you drives people away from this site - thought this was a friendly site. I feel sorry for you May God bless you unless you do not believe in God. What kind of names are you going to call me now?


I didn't sneeze, no need to bless me. I would tell you to grow some balls, But balls are weak, so grow a vagina, those things can take a pounding.
and Like I said Earlier, I NEVER called you a name, I ASKED if you pulled that info out of your ass.
Jesus dude, learn some damn reading comprehension.


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## Commander Strax (Jul 26, 2014)

this thread needs more penis drawings






aaahhh...that's better


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## ayr0n (Jul 26, 2014)

harris hawk said:


> Hey chuck estevez. thought this site is for helping people with their growing issues. You do-not have to put people down or call names. People like you drives people away from this site - thought this was a friendly site. I feel sorry for you May God bless you unless you do not believe in God. What kind of names are you going to call me now?


"Take this all of you and eat from it. This used to be a pot plant. Hallelujah."


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## Commander Strax (Jul 26, 2014)

ayr0n said:


> "Take this all of you and eat from it. This used to be a pot plant. Hallelujah."


so, are you saying that we should eat the leaves??


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## ayr0n (Jul 26, 2014)

Commander Strax said:


> so, are you saying that we should eat the leaves??


Ofc its the only part that gets you high


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## chuck estevez (Jul 26, 2014)

harris hawk said:


> Hey chuck estevez. thought this site is for helping people with their growing issues. You do-not have to put people down or call names. People like you drives people away from this site - thought this was a friendly site. I feel sorry for you May God bless you unless you do not believe in God. What kind of names are you going to call me now?


also, you made a claim, i asked for proof of said claim, you responded by whining like a bitch, HOW IS THAT HELPING?


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## budman111 (Jul 26, 2014)

harris hawk said:


> after the 4th week of flower the plant has no use for "fan" leaves -


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## jacksthc (Jul 26, 2014)

harris hawk said:


> Each strain requires different defoliation - Indica's like defoliation but Sativa's not so much, but with their leaf shape not much is required anyway, Remember - after the 4th week of flower the plant has no use for "fan" leaves - a goof time to defoliate. If one defoliated to much you will really "stunt" the plants growth Hey goggle"defoliation of marijuana plants" much info!


Sounds about right as indica strain have a lot of old large fan leaves in week 4 in flower and can't see any problem removing a few of them so the younger smaller fan leaves can use the enegy and they will be closer to the bud sites, so it could save enegy 

sativa strain only grow small fan leaves so removing off this plant could result in the plant using less light and yeilding less


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## purplehays1 (Jul 26, 2014)

the bushy untrimmed plant will probably yield more, it is getting more space. The lower growth has stretched all the way to the canopy. Basically jut a mess of leaves and branches fighting for light. My bet is that it yields a lot more popcorn crap bud tho. Just my guess from looking at the wimpy little branches that are competing for light. On the other plants the lower growth gets light or gets cut, so these stretchy wimpy branches don't exist.


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## jacksthc (Jul 26, 2014)

I have found an untrimmed plant to yeild less, each shoot acts like a individual plant trying to strech for light 

So when I trim some top leaves back to give the lower shoots more light, they grow thicker and stronger and don't have a reason to strech 

I keep the plants short, any way.

Aiming for the plants to grow 18" high, so the plant grows short and bushy and most the lower shoot don't strech and give me good bud ( not the best smoke but a good smoke )

A lot of the yeild is down how you train the plants and the number of plants


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## purplehays1 (Jul 26, 2014)

took off a few shoots from the bush that were stretching like 5" for light, left all fan leaves


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## jacksthc (Jul 27, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> took off a few shoots from the bush that were stretching like 5" for light, left all fan leaves


Lol so u removed budsites and kept the leaves


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## budman111 (Jul 27, 2014)

Commander Strax said:


> so, are you saying that we should eat the leaves??


In a fruit smoothy, yes, very high in CBD's.


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## This Hidden Creature (Jul 27, 2014)

Rough defoliation has to be done ONLY when you have bugs attack that you cant get rid of it by pesticide.

Otherwise, knit your leaves together for helping lower nodes to grow and make tough branches.
you'll have to knit/tie the leaves together everyday but it works.

Defoliation is not bad for the grow period and making many main colas.
But after, in flowering don't remove anything, let the plant sucks what she needs in the leaves when she has to.

Leaves are solar panels as well as energy/sugar containers

another very good point for keeping leaves: 
Imagine we have a very hot day, so the plant can get thirsty sooner than expected.
The grower couldn't come soon enough to water her in time.
i.e: he is working at his dayjob and cant go home before the end of his task

Be insured. Extra leaves are there!
the plant can pump a few water from the bottom ones.
You know, those which many growers remove because they are not exposed to the light.

this allows you a few extra time to water.

Then those leaves will dry and fall by themselves FOR THE SAKE of you canopy.


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## waterdawg (Jul 27, 2014)

budman111 said:


> In a fruit smoothy, yes, very high in CBD's.


Actually the sun leaves can cause irritation to the throat due to the course structure and really should not be consumed. Make butter with them if you must remove them and dont want to toss them.


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## purplehays1 (Jul 27, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Actually the sun leaves can cause irritation to the throat due to the course structure and really should not be consumed. Make butter with them if you must remove them and dont want to toss them.


pretty sure they were being sarcastic.


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## Commander Strax (Jul 27, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> pretty sure they were being sarcastic.


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## purplehays1 (Jul 27, 2014)

> Otherwise, knit your leaves together for helping lower nodes to grow and make tough branches.
> you'll have to knit/tie the leaves together everyday but it works.


my bush would be impossible to weave, just a total mess of leaves.


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## waterdawg (Jul 27, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> pretty sure they were being sarcastic.


Im so confused


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## Jbone77 (Jul 27, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Im so confused


Well ptincss would be happy to know you kbew what a node was, its all golden after that.


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## MightyMike530 (Jul 27, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> my bush would be impossible to weave,


thats what she said


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## waterdawg (Jul 27, 2014)

Jbone77 said:


> Well ptincss would be happy to know you kbew what a node was, its all golden after that.


I'm more confused 
Hey I think she lolly pops that thing!!


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## purplehays1 (Jul 28, 2014)

so one of my 4 plants was male, the bush has been staked out over a lot of the tent.


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## JointOperation (Jul 29, 2014)

cant wait to see this.. anyways.. when are you defoling ? ive had great results.. with defoling a little bit on day 1 of 12/12.. then again cleaning out small suckers that are blocked by bigger branches.. and then I take out all the fan leaves that are blocking right after the stretch.. so that the buds all get to the same level by the end of flower.. not nearly as much larf as there used to be when I didn't defol.. also.. since I defol at end of stretch.. there still getting veg nutes at the time.. and it worked great for me.. so good luck.. hoping u get great results..


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 29, 2014)

JointOperation said:


> cant wait to see this.. anyways.. when are you defoling ? ive had great results.. with defoling a little bit on day 1 of 12/12.. then again cleaning out small suckers that are blocked by bigger branches.. and then I take out all the fan leaves that are blocking right after the stretch.. so that the buds all get to the same level by the end of flower.. not nearly as much larf as there used to be when I didn't defol.. also.. since I defol at end of stretch.. there still getting veg nutes at the time.. and it worked great for me.. so good luck.. hoping u get great results..


Cause and effect eh? Like to see some of your garden photos.

Again, cannabis doesn't need light at the budsites, although it does get R and FR light FWIW. That is a myth, noob shit.


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## purplehays1 (Jul 29, 2014)

JointOperation said:


> cant wait to see this.. anyways.. when are you defoling ? ive had great results.. with defoling a little bit on day 1 of 12/12.. then again cleaning out small suckers that are blocked by bigger branches.. and then I take out all the fan leaves that are blocking right after the stretch.. so that the buds all get to the same level by the end of flower.. not nearly as much larf as there used to be when I didn't defol.. also.. since I defol at end of stretch.. there still getting veg nutes at the time.. and it worked great for me.. so good luck.. hoping u get great results..


its going to be a interesting test even if it may not be very conclusive. When the lights come on tonight ill post some pics. I began defoliating at the end of veg they are on day 5 of 12/12. It stunted the vertical growth of the plant and its looking like the plant will stay a lot smaller than the others. I expected this but now that i have taken the male out i have open space that i have staked the bushy untrimmed plant into. So the little defoliated one is taking up only like 1/3 of the untrimmed one. So basically im now testing which produces better in the space provided, as it is clear that defoliating in veg stunts growth (which may be a good thing for me in a 2x2 tent if the production is good).


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## BDOGKush (Jul 29, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Cause and effect eh? Like to see some of your garden photos.
> 
> Again, cannabis doesn't need light at the budsites, although it does get R and FR light FWIW. That is a myth, noob shit.


So are you saying clearing out larf that is beyond the penetration depth of the light you're using is pointless and a grower shouldn't remove bud sites that will not fully develop? 

What is the cause of popcorn buds?


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## CaretakerDad (Jul 29, 2014)

BDOGKush said:


> So are you saying clearing out larf that is beyond the penetration depth of the light you're using is pointless and a grower shouldn't remove bud sites that will not fully develop?
> 
> What is the cause of popcorn buds?


Apical dominance.


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## BDOGKush (Jul 29, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> Apical dominance.


Which is constantly changing in a SCRoG setup.

Entire point of a SCRoG setup is to get a larger canopy as close to your lights as possible, it was developed by T5 growers to get the most out of their lighting. So I'm trying to understand how growing techniques that were designed around light intensity to bud sights and defoliation of lower growth is being considered "noob shit".


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## chuck estevez (Jul 29, 2014)

BDOGKush said:


> Which is constantly changing in a SCRoG setup.
> 
> Entire point of a SCRoG setup is to get a larger canopy as close to your lights as possible, it was developed by T5 growers to get the most out of their lighting. So I'm trying to understand how growing techniques that were designed around light intensity to bud sights and defoliation of lower growth is being considered "noob shit".


removing the lower growth under a scrog is not defoliation, it is selective pruning, pulling all the leafs off the whole plant at different times is defoliating.


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## BDOGKush (Jul 29, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> removing the lower growth under a scrog is not defoliation, it is selective pruning, pulling all the leafs off the whole plant at different times is defoliating.


Alright, I had asked about that specifically early in the thread and wasn't sure if what I do was considered defoliation.

Thanks for the reply Chuck.


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## purplehays1 (Jul 29, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> removing the lower growth under a scrog is not defoliation, it is selective pruning, pulling all the leafs off the whole plant at different times is defoliating.


basically, tho im never going to remove every leaf, just any that block lower growth. There will be fan leaves, just not many on the defoliated plant.


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## Conshroomer (Jul 29, 2014)

I've noticed that Bubba Kush specifically likes to be heavily defoliated. After I defoliate my plant, the next day she is praying harder than ever before. It does stress the girl though, so expect about a week of slow growth. After about a month she is just as bushy (if not bushier) as she was before I defoliated her. I would suggest to completely remove every major fan leaf after about the 4 week of flower, this allows the plant to focus most of its energy on plumping up those fruits growing.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2014)

Noobs, you need to buy a book on botany and learn plant processes which includes the dynamics of apical dominance, chronological age, hormonal processes and what a leaf is for. It wasn't put there for you to remove it thereby stunting your plants and reducing yields.

Going on what you want to believe or see or forum hearsay parroted by each new crop of noobs is ignorant.


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## chuck estevez (Jul 30, 2014)

Conshroomer said:


> I've noticed that Bubba Kush specifically likes to be heavily defoliated. After I defoliate my plant, the next day she is praying harder than ever before. It does stress the girl though,* so expect about a week of slow growth. After about a month she is just as bushy (if not bushier) as she was before I defoliated her*. I would suggest to completely remove every major fan leaf after about the 4 week of flower, this allows the plant to focus most of its energy on plumping up those fruits growing.


 so, you added time, stressed her out, all for pretty much nothing, absolute genius.


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## tip top toker (Jul 30, 2014)

purplehays1 said:


> so one of my 4 plants was male, the bush has been staked out over a lot of the tent.


Hang on, if one is male, does that mean you are not running 4 clones from the same mother to actually make the test fair? If they're just seeds, then any result you get could be due to nothing more than genetic variation and your conclusion would be flawed and worthless.


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## chuck estevez (Jul 30, 2014)

tip top toker said:


> Hang on, if one is male, does that mean you are not running 4 clones from the same mother to actually make the test fair? If they're just seeds, then any result you get could be due to nothing more than genetic variation and your conclusion would be* flawed and worthless.*


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> so, you added time, stressed her out, all for pretty much nothing, absolute genius.


Makes sense to me!


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2014)

BDOGKush said:


> Which is constantly changing in a SCRoG setup.


1. No it's not.

2. R and FR light penetrate leaves.

3. If you really want some understanding of this search my threads (and a few others here like Chuck) on defoliation. We've covered all this misguided nonsense a dozen times and presented facts for your education.

4. See my sig line. It applies to you.


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## BDOGKush (Jul 30, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> 1. No it's not.
> 
> 2. R and FR light penetrate leaves.
> 
> ...


I can't see sig lines on the mobile site.

I've always understood the way LST and SCRoG work is that by bending the lateral shoot breaks the dominance of the apical bud which causes the side shoots to recieve auxins like the apical bud. So that's why I said apical dominance is changing.

As its been pointed out repeatedly on this thread, I don't defoliate.


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## BDOGKush (Jul 30, 2014)

I should have known better than to expect Caretaker or Uncle Ben to have a polite discussion.

Seems like a lot of people on RIU expect an arguement and want to get ugly if somebody that is "misinformed" asks a simple question.


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## UncleReemis (Jul 30, 2014)

BDOGKush said:


> I should have known better than to expect Caretaker or Uncle Ben to have a polite discussion.
> 
> Seems like a lot of people on RIU expect an arguement and want to get ugly if somebody that is "misinformed" asks a simple question.


 That's what happens when a pretentious bastard grows his ego off of a popular thread he created.










There, got my shit talk in for this one.


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## BDOGKush (Jul 30, 2014)

UncleReemis said:


> That's what happens when a pretentious bastard grows his ego off of a popular thread he created.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess so, I just expressed what I've been taught, techniques that are very popular among marijuana growers and tried to get some clarification about what exactly is being debated here. As well as why growing technique that are developed around increasing yield like LST and SCRoG are about getting as much of your plant exposed to your light as possible but then people are saying light to bud sights doesn't matter. It was pointed out that I'm taking defoliation too literally and that what I do isn't really defoliating, just selective pruning.

Apparently this makes me a know it all that causes trouble?


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2014)

BDOGKush said:


> ...... techniques that are very popular among marijuana growers


Blind leading the blind.



> Apparently this makes me a know it all that causes trouble?


You're seeking truth where it doesn't exist. 

My sig line says: "*It ain't ignorance that causes so much trouble; it's folks knowing so much that ain't so."*


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## BDOGKush (Jul 30, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Blind leading the blind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea I read your sig line, how it applies to me I don't know, perhaps you don't read the entire thread before trying to go after someone. 

If you can explain the misconception about LST and SCRoG grows please do, that's all I've tried to get an answer for. That and why I've always been told and read that light intensity = bud density, this is misinformation?

I'm not a know it all, go through my post history and you'll see I readily admit when I'm wrong or not sure about something and will listen to people who can explain their point of view. Go read the flushing debate thread if you want an example.

I'm seeking truths to what you're calling misinformation. I asked question of you and Caretaker because you've been growing longer and I'm humble about my growing knowledge, it seems both of you took my comments as personal attacks on your experience.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2014)

In SCROG, all growths are equal in size or at least that's what you're trying to achieve across the plane. Apical dominance has been distributed from one main cola to many "dominant" sites now spread across your screen.

It's not about light intensity as you can give a plant too much light. It's about photosynthesis and finding the light saturation point of a plant whereby more is less regarding carbos production. 

Sorry to come off as crass. I really should be big enough to just ignore these never ending defoliation threads. Once you're read one you've read them all.


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## BDOGKush (Jul 30, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> In SCROG, all growths are equal in size or at least that's what you're trying to achieve across the plane. Apical dominance has been distributed from one main cola to many "dominant" sites now spread across your screen.
> 
> It's not about light intensity as you can give a plant too much light. It's about photosynthesis and finding the light saturation point of a plant whereby more is less regarding carbos production.
> 
> Sorry to come off as crass. I really should be big enough to just ignore these never ending defoliation threads. Once you're read one you've read them all.


Yea I can see from other threads that defoliation seems to always turn into a big arguement. I don't personally agree with doing it.

It's hard not to get misinformed about growing, a lot of books written about marijuana horticulture are filled with misinformation, which is passed along on the Internet as truth. New growers have to wade through so much bs and try to figure out what is right, it doesn't help when misinformation is being spread by well known names in the cannabis world. 

Thanks for going into detail for me, I had a basic understanding of apical dominance but definetly worded my statement wrong about apical dominance changing and will see if I can brush up on carbos production. No hard feelings.


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## waterdawg (Jul 30, 2014)

There see!!! We all can get along! I think I gotta go and give someone a hug.....


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2014)

"It's hard not to get misinformed about growing, a lot of books written about marijuana horticulture are filled with misinformation"

That's because they don't treat it as what it is - a weed.


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## BDOGKush (Jul 30, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> "It's hard not to get misinformed about growing, a lot of books written about marijuana horticulture are filled with misinformation"
> 
> That's because they don't treat it as what it is - a weed.


Exactly and they name their books things like "Growing Bible", people take that misinformation as gospel, spread it all over the Internet and that's all a new grower finds.


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## waterdawg (Jul 31, 2014)

^^^^^ true that lol. Seems to me thats been happening for what, a few thousand years lol. But I do think that given the amount of info out there re pot, a newb should be able to understand this is a highly contestable theory and practice. If he or she wants to try it so be it, it is after all only a weed. I've tried it (I know, I know lol) and didn't see it as a good thing to do. Perhaps some need a kick in the ass to realize it hurts lol.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 31, 2014)

BDOGKush said:


> Exactly and they name their books things like "Growing Bible", people take that misinformation as gospel, spread it all over the Internet and that's all a new grower finds.


If you want a bonafide "bible" that is grounded in botany and common sense, buy Mel Frank's "MJ Growers Insider Guide".


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## BDOGKush (Jul 31, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> If you want a bonafide "bible" that is grounded in botany and common sense, buy Mel Frank's "MJ Growers Insider Guide".


Order placed, thanks for the suggestion.


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## docter (Jul 31, 2014)

Commander Strax said:


> pissing assholes? sounds uncomfortable




It burns.


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## PatchKid (Jul 31, 2014)

it works I tried it on my last grow and it didn't hermie on me, my lower branches got so much light they popped out a lot of sites for flowers and I was very pleased. could've been good luck but its been 100% success rate for me


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## waterdawg (Aug 1, 2014)

PatchKid said:


> it works I tried it on my last grow and it didn't hermie on me, my lower branches got so much light they popped out a lot of sites for flowers and I was very pleased. could've been good luck but its been 100% success rate for me


Depending on the strain I get lower branches that produce the same size buds as the main branch without any manipulation. Not sure if defoliation was the reason yours did that. Did you actually do a plant that was not touched to compare?


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## Bricksquad2625 (Aug 3, 2014)

I try to bend and fold the leaves if necessary, odds are the light will still hit the big ass fan leave and it would still help generate energy


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## Johnxnyg (Aug 4, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> If you want a bonafide "bible" that is grounded in botany and common sense, buy Mel Frank's "MJ Growers Insider Guide".


Read it from cover to cover on this gentlemans advice! Made me a 10x better grower. It's based on plant botany not lots of forum posts that someone is calling a grow bible.


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## ElfoodStampo (Aug 4, 2014)

Leaves, fan or otherwise are the "solar panels" of a plant. with out them the plant produces less.. everything.
IMHumbleO


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## JointOperation (Aug 5, 2014)

noob shit that seems to work for all vertical growers to the point were there over harvesting any horizontal grow? lol.. the plant doesn't need to be stripped bare.. I just pull the fans that block all the smaller branches.. and my yields have increased..

how can u say noob shit.. then why if u strip some fans. do the side branches catch up to the tops? but if u don't.. they stay small and then u need to chop em off kuz there wasting energy..

?/? cannabis growers are some of the best growers.. being able to grow amazing crops in a fake environment.. but honestly.. things work great on specific strains ive found.. anything with a more sativa hybrid.. defol worked better then on indicas. but I pull leaves off at end of stretch to allow the rest of the branches to get up.. but I don't pull every fan leaf .. not even close..

but I did test it .. side by side.. and the defol had bigger and more bud on it then the non.. so maybe outside when u have MORE THEN ENOUGH LIGHT.. u could say it dont matter.. but when ur growing inside.. the fans aren't all ness..

the people who dont try it.. are usually the ones that say it dont work.. or its noob shit.. lol

that's fine lol. I could careless what others think im just sharing what works for me.. that's why I said.. strain dependent. not for every single strain does defol work..


so would u say a plant with more fan leaves will grow more bud.. or will the plant with more roots grow more bud?


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## jacksthc (Aug 5, 2014)

JointOperation said:


> noob shit that seems to work for all vertical growers to the point were there over harvesting any horizontal grow? lol.. the plant doesn't need to be stripped bare.. I just pull the fans that block all the smaller branches.. and my yields have increased..
> 
> how can u say noob shit.. then why if u strip some fans. do the side branches catch up to the tops? but if u don't.. they stay small and then u need to chop em off kuz there wasting energy..
> 
> ...


at last a grower that know what he's talking about 

I chop my plants back, remove a few large fan leaves ( works well on indica hybrid strains) get a large root mass and short stocky plant and flower 
works wonders for me, but what do we know lol


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## Sativied (Aug 5, 2014)

JointOperation said:


> but I pull leaves off at end of stretch to allow the rest of the branches to get up..


So you remove leaves at the end of the stretch, that is the end of the transition from veg to flowering...., and then after that the rest of the branches "get up"?


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## jacksthc (Aug 5, 2014)

Sativied said:


> So you remove leaves at the end of the stretch, that is the end of the transition from veg to flowering...., and then after that the rest of the branches "get up"?


that's a really good point i missed that


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## JointOperation (Aug 9, 2014)

ya .. what I do is.. before stretch.. I remove a few here and there that are blocking branches that can potentially be nice big colas.. so Ill take like 10-20 off each plant before even throwing the lights to 12/12.. then after the stretch is done.. and buds are starting to form.. ill hit them with there last dose o f veg nutes with a hint of flower nutes.. and a pk boost... and then pull fans that are blocking lots.. and causing airflow to become restricted.. then after swell is done.. and the plant is just maturing trichomes and putting on the terpene profile hard.. I raise my lights to the ceilings.. and start flushing.. this saves ur mono terps from being released nearly as much. .. gotta remember a lot of these terpenes only smell because there being released.. the more heat.. the more is released.. so for the flush.. I raise my lights.. and also turn my temps down 5 degrees during lights on and off.. .and the same day I raise lights and turn temps down.. I will go threw.. and pull of every single fan leaf that doesn't have trichomes on them.. so I don't have to separate my trim.. and I leave on a decent amount of smaller leaves just so it doesn't dry too fast..

remember.. u wana dry slow slow slow.. to retain the best smell and taste.. and smooth smoking white ash is a good flush and dry and cure..

that's why a lot of bud looks great.. but smokes like crap.. or tastes harsh and makes ur throat feel fucked..

but hey do what you wana do.. if I was you.. be skeptical . try it on 1 or 2 strains.. 

there are a few strains I wont do this to defol wise.. any plant that doesn't stretch at all.. I will pull of some fans.. but not all of them.. ive noticed some genetics hate it .. but most do amazing..

and this has been over 8 years in the making of finding wat works and wat doesn't..

just make sure that ur soil or hydro nutes are in check.. if ur plants not healthy then defol wont increase much.. and could actually fuck it up.


the thing people don't understand is.. growing perfect plants means perfect nute regimen.. perfect environment.. including temps.. humidity.. perfect light intensity.. I mean not everyones grow room will show good results from most of the shit people do.. that's why a clone grown in my room .. could be 100% different in yours.. that's including smell taste and bud structure
the only plants


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## JointOperation (Aug 9, 2014)

if u don't believe it works.. go talk to vertical growers.. because if it didn't work they would have a huge problem with LARF instead of having a huge problem with COLAS AND OVER YIELDING HORIZONTAL LIGHTS ALL DAY EVERYDAY.

oo ya.. and now .. finally im a apart of the GG#4 Family.. ya buddy.. 4 clones.. 3 deff surviving.. 1 wilting a little.. but we shall see what gets rooted.. finally getting to grow some GLUE


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