# raised christian, have some faith, but feel so fake in church...



## LetsMakePot! (Aug 14, 2012)

I havent been to church in a while...but i spoke to a friend about this. I felt i was the only one until.

My presence is the only real part ive consistantly brought to a church and even that i seem to alter to the best of my ability to blend in the most i can. Impressing people, especially ones with importance within the church, with "newfound discoveries of improvement" within myself have become my goal. I raise my hands and sing to the music to appear to have a more intense relationship with god. I pay attention to sermons on the outside, while inside thoughts of anything else take place. I have put more effort in impressing the church and its body then i have trying to impress my mother. Im sick of being what you want. My feelings have driven me to rebel, I would rather easily lie and be praised by everyone than to actually share my own sick and twisted feelings and be "that guy". I have been in and out of several churches and although i have met some awesome people with many churches in the right direction, i feel the church is not a positive place for me. Especially having a chameleon like personality to be able to blend in to many different environments. Church is too easy and good to be "played" I dont want that game in my cupboard anymore, i feel guilty under God. I truly long and desire the needs and wants of god, even though my faith has been wilting slowly for years. chime in haters, fakers, lovers, christians, jews, REAL church goers, etc. 

Anyone else feel like this? similar? contrary? lets hear about it


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Aug 14, 2012)

Welcome to RIU.

Be whom you are, not who you think everyone wants to see.


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 14, 2012)

LetsMakePot! said:


> I havent been to church in a while...but i spoke to a friend about this. I felt i was the only one until.
> 
> My presence is the only real part ive consistantly brought to a church and even that i seem to alter to the best of my ability to blend in the most i can. Impressing people, especially ones with importance within the church, with "newfound discoveries of improvement" within myself have become my goal. I raise my hands and sing to the music to appear to have a more intense relationship with god. I pay attention to sermons on the outside, while inside thoughts of anything else take place. I have put more effort in impressing the church and its body then i have trying to impress my mother. Im sick of being what you want. My feelings have driven me to rebel, I would rather easily lie and be praised by everyone than to actually share my own sick and twisted feelings and be "that guy". I have been in and out of several churches and although i have met some awesome people with many churches in the right direction, i feel the church is not a positive place for me. Especially having a chameleon like personality to be able to blend in to many different environments. Church is too easy and good to be "played" I dont want that game in my cupboard anymore, i feel guilty under God. I truly long and desire the needs and wants of god, even though my faith has been wilting slowly for years. chime in haters, fakers, lovers, christians, jews, REAL church goers, etc.
> 
> Anyone else feel like this? similar? contrary? lets hear about it


...sometimes I wonder if church is a phase of a person's life. After a while, the church is integrated, you 'become' the church and you are a priest of your self (Melchizedek). The congregation members are your thoughts, and you can direct them to a healthy place, etc...

...just my *5* cents. (...apparently pennies are no longer minted, so yeah, *5*  )


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## Blacktophat (Aug 16, 2012)

*organized religion is a joke. they only want your $. *


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 16, 2012)

Letsmakepot,
*
Question everything*, do no accept any notion until you can prove it to yourself... then you don't have to pretend to have knowledge you don't really have. This will help you not only grow as a person, but grow as an intellectual.

I was raised and christain too, until i started to think formyself, and question everything, rather than think what other people told me.


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## Hepheastus420 (Aug 16, 2012)

Take no offense to what I'm about to say, but I believe you're desperately clinging on to your "faith". You feel guilt because you were raised to believe that loving and obeying god is the right thing to do.. You feel that you're doing wrong. Open your eyes though bud, it's only wrong in their eyes, is it wong in yours?


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## Corso312 (Aug 16, 2012)

I am the exact opposite..raised catholic and never got into the whole church thing..haven't stepped foot in one in 20 years..was in grade school last time I was there..and I want to get more spiritual and start going to church..but I just think they are all phonies and con men looking to pad the churches pockets..would go to one if I found a decent one with no ulterior motives.


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## dannyboy602 (Aug 16, 2012)

i think you'll find the answers in giving more of yourself to people who have less: faith, resources, money etc. god finds a way into your heart in this way. and you'll find a peace that didn't exist before. happened to me. i don't see where it shouldn't happen to you too.


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## cybasolja (Aug 17, 2012)

I am conflicted butwhen it comes to religion. I think I'm a deist in a sense that I believe God doesn't interfere in our lives. He is like a watchmaker He made the watch now his watching it tick. Christianaty has truth but it's a religion that's flawed. I don't believe in religion; I believe in God. A God of love, truth and righteousness. I know it sounds clichè but that's where I wanna be.


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## tyler.durden (Aug 17, 2012)

Theist or not, church is boring. It's like saying the pledge of allegiance every single morning in school; you took the pledge already, why would one's loyalty wane each day? Theists should have to attend church for one year, in that year you'll hear every single thing they have to say multiple times, so why have to attend each and every week? Maybe a spiritual refresher meeting quarterly, but even that seems excessive...


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## gioua (Aug 17, 2012)

go to Church for the education.. just like you did for school.
I joined an Apostolic Church about a year + ago.
I find them to be very normal.. far different then what I was anticipating.

I have been to almost all the Churches here locally (they are a ton) I instantly stayed away from the "mega Churches" and those Churches that I was not able to speak and spend any time with the Pastor. I was a wedding Photographer for about 4 years and met a bunch of really interesting people and have seen some amazing churches inside... 


My Pastor (who has lived across the street from me for 5 years) has never pushed me to go to his Church has never made me feel like I am doing everything wrong and when I talk to him... if he does not have the answer he will get it for me.

I question things all the time when I learn something I want to know WHY.


Going to Church, makes you no more of a Christian (or ... other) then sitting in a garage makes you a Car... But get your education.. figure out why you think the way you do.. 

dont listen to the folks who are telling you anything against God. I have made the comments myself in the past and now feel differently.

Being a religious person.. is not just a 1 day event either.. it is suppose to change you..


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## Heisenberg (Aug 17, 2012)

gioua said:


> I question things all the time when I learn something I want to know WHY.
> 
> dont listen to the folks who are telling you anything against God. I have made the comments myself in the past and now feel differently.


Your philosophies seems to be at odds with themselves. It appears you encourage asking question but only want to listen to answers that agree.


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 17, 2012)

I'm a sucker for funny yet truthful memes.


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## tyler.durden (Aug 17, 2012)

gioua said:


> Going to Church, makes you no more of a Christian then sitting in a garage makes you a Car...


I did love this line, though...


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 17, 2012)

gioua said:


> go to Church for the education.. just like you did for school.
> I joined an Apostolic Church about a year + ago.
> I find them to be very normal.. far different then what I was anticipating.
> 
> ...



...just...fckn...wow  Thanks for posting this.


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## BA142 (Aug 17, 2012)

I remember when I was younger as I began questioning my faith...it kinda freaked me out too. Then one day it stopped bothering me.

Whether you decide to continue practicing your religion or not, just remember that there is much more to life than religion. You can live a great life with or without it.


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## gioua (Aug 17, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Your philosophies seems to be at odds with themselves. It appears you encourage asking question but only want to listen to answers that agree.


how so....
explain?


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## tyler.durden (Aug 17, 2012)

gioua said:


> how so....
> explain?


Well, in one breath you say that you question everything, and in the next you say don't listen to anything any of us have to say against the value of the god concept. So, it seems to someone reading your post that you think you have an open mind, but then show that it is the definition of a closed one. That's why it seems you only want to question that with which you already agree...


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## gioua (Aug 17, 2012)

we ALL... no matter what faith .... no matter what religion we are brought up in.. we will question things be it ourselves or our faith.. or each other.


I have done my homework.. I've done my research I done my time worrying and done my thinking.. and well I cant see that there is any other way.
(yet if your not ok... with this.. that is on you.. ) 

those who do not have faith.
those who feel they know the answers or thing they might 
those who feel science will prove it all wrong...

have more doubt then I.



I stopped all of my wonderings about 2 years ago.. something bigger drew me into religion..


I encourage all to seek their answer to this mess of a life we have made and been dealt.. we seek our own personal convictions.
If you want to believe that we went from the goo.. to the zoo.. to you.. 



Those who doubt.. I am 100% ok with that.. I am not gonna bang on your door asking you to follow me to my Church.
we will all have doubts about this world...


I have never nor will ever be the one who says YOU are wrong in your feelings or personal convictions..

I am not that stupid...... if you FEEL the way you do.. there may be a reason for it.. I am 100% ok with that..

and... that reason can change..

my feelings have changed, my ideas and understanding has as well..



I can tell you this.. I have felt many ways in the past 40+ years..
I have been able to adapt.. to understand many things.. and have felt 100% the opposite of how I feel now.. 

I am at peace with myself...

I am 100% happy with the path I have chosen and the path that was laid in front if me.. I know I am either going in the right direction or I am being lead this way.

there will come a point in each of your lives.. where you look back and wonder.. am I on the right path?

its up to you as an individual.. to look at that path and seriously think, am I helping or hindering myself and those I come in contact with.


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## gioua (Aug 17, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Well, in one breath you say that you question everything, and in the next you say don't listen to anything any of us have to say against the value of the god concept. So, it seems to someone reading your post that you think you have an open mind, but then show that it is the definition of a closed one. That's why it seems you only want to question that with which you already agree...


I will and hope each of you question things.. 

this is how we as a society learn from each other.. 

dont think I said I dont listen to those who want to speak against God.. that is not what I meant to imply.
If you have a point of view.. lets hear it.. 

but those who usually state that I am closed minded.. are not willing to listen either..

I am firm in how I feel.. and how I get thru this world..
I am always up for anyone who wants to discuss religion or politics or weed... as long as we can DISCUSS it and not bash each other..



I cant say to you.. your feelings and thoughts are invalid beacuse I said so..

I cant discredit someone from their feelings.. 

I understand how I feel... and why I feel that way... I expect those who wish to continue any religious debate to be respectful of my thoughts as I am theirs.



No matter who you are.. no matter how long you have been here on this world.. no matter what you have been subjected to...
we all have to either get along.. or move along..


***Dont be afraid to PM me. (*anyone*) or ask me questions directly.. gonna attempt to follow this post but incase I get sidetracked hit me on pm.. **


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## Hepheastus420 (Aug 17, 2012)

gioua said:


> we ALL... no matter what faith .... no matter what religion we are brought up in.. we will question things be it ourselves or our faith.. or each other.
> What good is questioning if you don't accept the answers?
> 
> 
> ...


.... The smiles mean I don't wanna argue in a negative way


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 17, 2012)

If you cannot accept the fact that what you believe has the possability of being wrong... then you are beyond anyone's help. 

You could be wrong, just as everyone could potentially be wrong about what they believe. If you cannot accept that, denial and delusion already have you in their death grip.


Remeber the fact that beliefs are ideas that we think or want to be true, if they were true... they wouldn't be called beleifs, they would be provable facts. And even facts, could still be illusion, this existence could be illusion, or a dream, or simulation.
*
I like to point out the awesome fact that beliefs are merely ideas we claim truth to, without evidence to support those claims. If we had evidence to support them, they wouldn't be beliefs now would they?*


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## gioua (Aug 17, 2012)

Zaehet...

I have seen your posts many times.,. 
I cant argue with you nor do I feel it needed.. you are solid in your thoughts~!


You seem to have a firm grasp in how you feel.. I applaud this.. not sure how old or young you are.. I have seen many of your posts and understand you know how YOU feel... again.. HUGE massive thc tainted props for you... you have done your homework and well keep at it..

I think we all are here for a larger purpose.. and from what I gather from your posts.. I think you are on the same wave spectrum as myself.. I think you are as we all are.. on a path that is already chosen..


like I said, and will continue to say...

there is no one person here who has the edge over anyone else.. we are ALL trying to make it thru this world... and well we need each others thoughts to either confirm ours or point us in the direction we need to go..


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## gioua (Aug 17, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> .... The smiles mean I don't wanna argue in a negative way





NO worries.. really.. 

smile and get thru this as best ya can...


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 17, 2012)

gioua said:


> Zaehet...
> 
> I have seen your posts many times.,.
> I cant argue with you nor do I feel it needed.. you are solid in your thoughts~!
> ...


Much appreicated bro, it means a lot. Though, if i were to allow my feelings to get involved with the way i think, i would have to say that i, nor anyone else, is any more important than a leaf on a tree, a grain of sand, or the hydrogen atom in water. 

Purpose and meaning in this existence... i feel, we must create for ourselves, nothing gives them to us.

Feelings are things that we do not know, we can't incorperate them with anything in what we percieve as reality, they don't give us any more truth than thinking does... 

I think i understand they way you feel, if not the reasons as well... but as with anything, i could be completely mistaken. 

I doubt anyone on this planet has figured out the truth about what is really going on right now... i feel as if this question is irrelivent anyways. People who give themselves truths in the absence of them, are just scared. I know fear, it's someting that we all have to cope with. The fear of not knowing, the fear of being wrong. 

We have one of two options. 
Accept the fear, trudge through it regardless of how scared we are, and accept the fact that we really don't know what the hell is going on... 
Or hide from the fear, and pretend that we know... that we know whats going on, that we know what happens when we die, that we know there is or is not a god.

One is a choice based on truth and honesty, the other is based on self deceit and fear.

I am no one to judge, i have let the fear control my mind in the past, but no more. Who am i to say which way is to live rightly? Honesty, or fear? Who am i to say what reality is, or isn't? We are all here, no different, all brothers, all animals, just trying to cope with the fact we are the only animals that live with the knowledge that some day...

We are going to die, there is nothing we can do about it... and we know nothing of it.


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## tyler.durden (Aug 17, 2012)

gioua said:


> I will and hope each of you question things..
> 
> this is how we as a society learn from each other..
> 
> dont think I said I dont listen to those who want to speak against God.. that is not what I meant to imply.


From your first post in this thread, "*dont listen to the folks who are telling you anything against God.*"



> If you have a point of view.. lets hear it..


I do not believe there is a god, mainly because I have never, not once, heard a logically consistent argument for the existence of one. I realize that the god concept gives comfort, but I've always attempted to base my beliefs upon evidence and reason. I desire to know reality, regardless of how it makes me feel. Marijuana and music are the vehicles I choose to take me out of reality when I need escape, I like to be able to be in reality when I choose...



> but those who usually state that I am closed minded.. are not willing to listen either..


I am willing to listen to almost anyone, the impression of close-mindedness came from the way you worded your first post...



> I am firm in how I feel.. and how I get thru this world..
> I am always up for anyone who wants to discuss religion or politics or weed... as long as we can DISCUSS it and not bash each other..


Agreed. May I ask what science you're familiar with? Have you studied and understand the basics of cosmology, biology (specifically evolution by means of natural selection), and physics? If so, I'd love to hear where you feel a god fits into these, and where you find him necessary at all. If not, I don't feel any quest could be complete without this knowledge...



> I cant say to you.. your feelings and thoughts are invalid beacuse I said so..
> 
> I cant discredit someone from their feelings..
> 
> I understand how I feel... and why I feel that way... I expect those who wish to continue any religious debate to be respectful of my thoughts as I am theirs.


This is civil and mature. Feelings and the quest for the truth about reality are very different conversations. Inserting feelings into the quest for truth is sure to bring about biases in perception...



> No matter who you are.. no matter how long you have been here on this world.. no matter what you have been subjected to...
> we all have to either get along.. or move along..


Well said...


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## alley.walker (Aug 17, 2012)

It's not the relationship with in the church or with it's people that you seek approval from. It is in the Kingdom of god you seek approval from. I have no idea of which church of the 7 that is spoken of in the tribulations I happen to attend.. I truly don't care. It's not man I wish to impress.. In fact I don't care to impress anybody. But my personal relationship with god is just that. The one thing that's most important in my life.


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 17, 2012)

Although, i must admit, if we... as humans, are to differentiate between what we percieve as real, or not real... what is reality, or not reality. We must only use what our senses can produce, never merely intuition or emotion. Intuition and emotion must be taken out of the equation if we are to set up a base standard for what reality is.. if in fact reality is not just an illusion, or simulation etc. etc. 

We must base reality on what we can test, study, and experiment with on a tangable level. Anything other than this, intuition, personal feelings, personal experiences of spirituality, things that are subjective rather than objective can only be considered imagination, halucination, wishful thinking... never reality. 

All the while understanding that anything we think, could be completely and utterly wrong.



alley.walker said:


> It's not the relationship with in the church or with it's people that you seek approval from. It is in the Kingdom of god you seek approval from. I have no idea of which church of the 7 that is spoken of in the tribulations I happen to attend.. I truly don't care. It's not man I wish to impress.. In fact I don't care to impress anybody. But my personal relationship with god is just that. The one thing that's most important in my life.


^This is a prime example of what i was explaining before. This human is still basing his reality on self deciet and fear. There is nothing wrong with this, what is right and wrong is subjective at best. Understand, that because this human cannot find the stregth to give his own life meaning or purpose, he gives himself the idea that he is letting someone/something else give it to him instead.

This fills him with a sense of meaning and purpose that would be absent if the belief was not there. 

I see nothing wrong with this, just as long as he does not try to impose this idea on anyone else... and if it does not cause anyone else pain or harm with or without it.


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## alley.walker (Aug 17, 2012)

Zahiet?? How ever you spell it..
I truly don't care what you think. 
Best regards ..


Fellow "Human"


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 17, 2012)

alley.walker said:


> Zahiet?? How ever you spell it..
> I truly don't care what you think.
> Best regards ..
> 
> ...


I know my friend... i know...


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## gioua (Aug 18, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> From your first post in this thread, "*dont listen to the folks who are telling you anything against God.*"
> 
> 
> 
> ...




=
Here is one of the was I have seen it.. and have looked from many angles in the past 40 years.
as much as I cant discredit those with their views.. 


I certainly cant and will never discredit OUR ancestors.. who have not only built MASSIVE structures that are still around and still being found today... but they have a History.. a past and believe based on what they knew..

So that is all made up?? 

The "Flood Myth" The Massive cataclysmic events that they have been written about.. the "first man" the "creationism myth" all of these things.. are not just bound by one area.. these are WORLD WIDE "myths"
this was all WAY before twitter!

and we are suppose to think this was a story? We are just a small speck of dust in the realm of things.. we EACH have a purpose a drive and desire that pushes us along.. 


I cant buy into the idea that all of our past ancestors were just crazy..

Perhaps they saw something that we as a Society have not seen in several thousand years.. and are not meant to see till the timing is due.

We think today just beacuse we cant see it happen or have no accurate records or video of it.. it was all a story or myth.


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## gioua (Aug 18, 2012)

alley.walker said:


> It's not the relationship with in the church or with it's people that you seek approval from. It is in the Kingdom of god you seek approval from. I have no idea of which church of the 7 that is spoken of in the tribulations I happen to attend.. I truly don't care. It's not man I wish to impress.. In fact I don't care to impress anybody. But my personal relationship with god is just that. The one thing that's most important in my life.


you too have a understanding of how you feel.. very few even take the time to do so.


I only have to answer to ONE. 
and I have to answer all the way I feel to them


I have been prepping myself for this since I understood what it is


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## Hepheastus420 (Aug 18, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> From your first post in this thread, "*dont listen to the folks who are telling you anything against God.*"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok tyler, think you're all badass quoting in sections whil I look like a dumbass seperating my words in blue? HUH?! lol

Duuuuuuddddeee how are you guys quoting in sections?


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## alley.walker (Aug 18, 2012)

Zaehet,
You ever notice your insane ability to end an entire thread?


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 18, 2012)

A flood does not prove anything but that a flood occured. 

Science vs religion. Or religion vs science. 

The earth is not flat, it is round.
Lightning does not come from Thors hammer.
The earth was not created in 6 days.
Posieden does not create sea storms.
The earth is not the center of our solar system.
The earth is not the center of our universe.
The earth is not the center of our galaxy.
Humans did not come from a rib bone.
God does not create rainbows, it is light reflecting off of prisms of water.

These are all ideas the theologians had, that have been proven to be mistaken over the tests of time by science.

No contradictions can be made for the arguments about religion vs science. 

Not saying god doesnt exist, but the people who claim it does... have been proven wrong time and time again, and will most likely continue to do so as time progresses.



alley.walker said:


> Zaehet,
> You ever notice your insane ability to end an entire thread?


LOL!!! That made me laugh so hard!! Yes, i have noticed that.


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## alley.walker (Aug 18, 2012)

Organized government is a joke.. They only want your money...


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## gioua (Aug 18, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> A flood does not prove anything but that a flood occured.
> 
> Science vs religion. Or religion vs science.
> 
> ...





weird.. cuz way back in the bible the quote I recall is .....
1.the Old Testament, Job 26:7 explains that the earth is suspended in space, the obvious comparison being with the spherical sun and moon. (not round.) as does the Ancient Sumerians who not only new the colors of said planets.. the shapes.. (google the annunaki planets) 

2. Is that OUR time of 6 days...or GODS? perhaps time is a man made thing?

3. perhaps overthinking issues? I dont know.. 
4 man made idea.. 
5.man made idea
6.again
7. I love Mcribs.. (ok I hate them they taste like MCcrap)
8. I thought rainbows shot outta unicorns as they climaxed...

learning new things daily!!!!


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## gioua (Aug 18, 2012)

alley.walker said:


> Organized government is a joke.. They only want your money...



amen.. and when they dont get it.........
they pass laws to do so..


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## tyler.durden (Aug 18, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Ok tyler, think you're all badass quoting in sections whil I look like a dumbass seperating my words in blue? HUH?! lol
> 
> Duuuuuuddddeee how are you guys quoting in sections?


Hey, Hep! When you reply with quote, you'll notice Quote in brackets meaning begin quote, and /Quote in brackets meaning end quote. Simply make sure the portion of a post is surround by these two operators, and voila! You have your separate quotes


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## gioua (Aug 18, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Hey, Hep! When you reply with quote, you'll notice Quote in brackets meaning begin quote, and /Quote in brackets meaning end quote. Simply make sure the portion of a post is surround by these two operators, and voila! You have your separate quotes




I quoted you quoiting someone else quoiting who quoted another who quoted someone...

and now quote me..


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## tyler.durden (Aug 18, 2012)

gioua said:


> =
> Here is one of the was I have seen it.. and have looked from many angles in the past 40 years.
> as much as I cant discredit those with their views..
> 
> ...


Yes, it was all made up. Our ancestors were not crazy, consider that the ones you mentioned had not yet discovered the scientific method for acquiring data, so they were simply trying to explain natural phenomena in their own primitive way (this is not taking into account purposeful deception when a group of intelligent, power-hungry individuals made up stories to fit their own agenda). We no longer need to do this, as we have the methodology and logic to deduce what is actually happening. You may want to educate yourself on logical fallacies and the basics of the areas of science I previously mentioned, I'm confident this will widen your perception and awareness of the world around you. You can find a lot of this knowledge in past threads in this very forum, there's some very learned fuckers here...


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Aug 18, 2012)

gioua said:


> =
> Here is one of the was I have seen it.. and have looked from many angles in the past 40 years.
> as much as I cant discredit those with their views..
> 
> ...


I like this way of thinking. Though I do not believe in a lot of what Christianity has to say, there is slivers of truth in all religions. Some of these age old stories had to of come to be because of real events. "If" god exists, to think no religion has knowledge of god is pure ignorance, those who tell you otherwise fall under the same delusion of certainty that they accuse you of. Out of the millions of unexplainable "paranormal" experiences, stories, events... Not one of them is really what it appears to be because science has a materialistic belief to hold on to? Science has its limitations and we are finding them today. Science doesnt know how DNA can have a unexplainable telepathic quality. Science doesnt know how an observer changes the behavior of sub atomic particles, which also kinda hints and telepathy. To each his own I guess. Who am I to stop people from believing in materialism.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 18, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> If you cannot accept the fact that what you believe has the possability of being wrong... then you are beyond anyone's help.
> 
> You could be wrong, just as everyone could potentially be wrong about what they believe. If you cannot accept that, denial and delusion already have you in their death grip.
> 
> ...


I'd like to take this rare opportunity to disagree with you. I like your concept, but I'm not sure about the vocabulary. Don't you mean to say that faith is belief without support, if we had support we wouldn't need faith? Perhaps I am misunderstanding the context.

Here is my take... When ideas govern our choices and actions, they become beliefs.

A proposition is a statement or assertion that expresses judgment. Belief is trust that a proposition says something accurate about the world. Evidence, or strong reasoning, is actually the biggest factor in believing something. Beliefs then become principals of action. If I believe it's bad when a black cat crosses my path, I change my path. Even this superstitious belief is based on evidence. At some point someone decided it was bad luck, probably because of witches, and confirmation bias did the rest. We both know the evidence comes from bad logic, but it's still support. All beliefs follow this mechanism. By changing my path to avoid the cat I am admitting that my beliefs are a _consequence_ of the world, therefore I must be open to new evidence. If I am shown a convincing source that says 99.9% of black cat crossings end fine, I must now change my belief to reflect this conviction, or else abandon the entire premise of belief that I began with. If no change in the world can effect my belief, then my belief is not based on taking the world into account. I can not point to my trust in a belief as reason to ignore the world and still claim my trust is based on regarding the world. Anytime we suggest we believe something without support, like religious belief, we are abandoning our premise and indirectly admitting that our beliefs do not represent reality. If we are attached to our beliefs and are shown contrary evidence or reasoning, cognitive dissonance allows us to rationalize. We can invent faith and pretend it's a virtue. We can pretend evidence and support are not important concepts, and not notice how, meanwhile, we desperately look for and collect support for the belief. Beliefs are not opposite facts, beliefs are trust in purported facts. The only difference in beliefs with support and beliefs without is the way in which we justify them. I believe I ate tomato soup tonight and I justify that with my memory and the empty soup can. I believe in God and I justify that with tricks and the invention of faith. Both ideas are still principals of action and govern my choices. 


&#8206;Faith, if it is ever right about anything, is right by accident
&#8213; Sam Harris


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## tyler.durden (Aug 18, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> To each his own I guess. Who am I to stop people from believing in materialism.


Especially when it's given you every single value you use each and every day...


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## alley.walker (Aug 18, 2012)

Atheists don't upset me nearly as much as I upset them.. I wonder why?

(Dual plural meanings)


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## tyler.durden (Aug 18, 2012)

alley.walker said:


> Atheists don't upset me nearly as much as I upset them.. I wonder why?


Whom have you upset?


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## alley.walker (Aug 18, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Whom have you upset?


Who can't I upset? Perhaps you at this point..


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## alley.walker (Aug 18, 2012)

*Isn't it funny how liberals want to remove a cross at the 911 site that was so inspirational to so many?*



In a time they really needed it? They say that atheists need to be represented. I wonder how many atheists worked 7 days straight with very few hopes.. Other than a cross that stood upward. WHY ARE LIBERALS SO CRAZY!!!?? 

http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981555384


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 18, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> I'd like to take this rare opportunity to disagree with you. I like your concept, but I'm not sure about the vocabulary. Don't you mean to say that faith is belief without support, if we had support we wouldn't need faith? Perhaps I am misunderstanding the context.
> 
> Here is my take... When ideas govern our choices and actions, they become beliefs.
> 
> ...


Taking into consideration, that if we are to differentiate between what is real and not real, we need the scientific method. If we are to presume that what is real can be associated with the scientific method, and what is not real can't, would that not mean that we are not required to believe anything that is fact, we are only reqired to believe something that has no evidence?


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## Heisenberg (Aug 18, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Taking into consideration, that if we are to differentiate between what is real and not real, we need the scientific method.
> 
> If we are to presume that what is real can be associated with the scientific method, and what is not real can't, would that not mean that we are not required to believe anything that is fact, we are only reqired to believe something that has no evidence?



This assumes the person is aware of science. The mechanism of belief has been around before logic and reasoning, and even then it was still based on support, the inclination that what is believed says something accurate about reality. Even animals observe this mechanism. When you rattle the food bowl they believe you are going to put food down, and this belief affects their actions. How does the animal decide if the idea that you will put food down is real or not real? Why doesn't he get excited when you shake the cereal box? He doesn't use logic and investigation, he uses intuition honed by experience. The first time you shake the cereal box, he thinks it's food and reacts accordingly. After a few times, he knows better. No scientific method involved, yet a belief still governs action.

Beliefs are not based on what is real, they are based on what is convincing. What is convincing is based on values, emotion, experience, and intuition. The act of believing _is_ the act of differentiating what is real and not real to us. The scientific method simply offers a tool to test and refine beliefs for those who value it.


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## Hepheastus420 (Aug 18, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Hey, Hep! When you reply with quote, you'll notice Quote in brackets meaning begin quote, and /Quote in brackets meaning end quote.


OK, so like this? 



tyler.durden said:


> Simply make sure the portion of a post is surround by these two operators, and voila! You have your separate quotes


Lets see if I did it right..

EDIT: And all it required was some common sense . Thanks bud, here's some rep for helping out .


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## Hepheastus420 (Aug 18, 2012)

Awwww shiiit! Now that I know how to do that, I can begin to disect other posters' posts and make my response more organized.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 18, 2012)

alley.walker said:


> *Isn't it funny how liberals want to remove a cross at the 911 site that was so inspirational to so many?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you think an atheist can't spend time selflessly helping others, then you need better exposure to the world and need to pay more attention.

I do however agree that atheists who want the cross removed are ridiculous. It's not a cross, it's a piece of rubble that provided many people with inspiration. Preserving the cross is respecting that inspiration, even if that inspiration is a result of pareidolia and a faulty belief system. How can someone get mad over the way someone else's brain interprets an object? What if the rubble resembled a bust of Uncle Sam? Uncle Sam isn't real, so should we refuse to preserve the rubble? Atheists who are bothered by the preservation of this cross must be insecure in their convictions or else ideological fascists.


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## missnu (Aug 18, 2012)

LetsMakePot! said:


> I havent been to church in a while...but i spoke to a friend about this. I felt i was the only one until.
> 
> My presence is the only real part ive consistantly brought to a church and even that i seem to alter to the best of my ability to blend in the most i can. Impressing people, especially ones with importance within the church, with "newfound discoveries of improvement" within myself have become my goal. I raise my hands and sing to the music to appear to have a more intense relationship with god. I pay attention to sermons on the outside, while inside thoughts of anything else take place. I have put more effort in impressing the church and its body then i have trying to impress my mother. Im sick of being what you want. My feelings have driven me to rebel, I would rather easily lie and be praised by everyone than to actually share my own sick and twisted feelings and be "that guy". I have been in and out of several churches and although i have met some awesome people with many churches in the right direction, i feel the church is not a positive place for me. Especially having a chameleon like personality to be able to blend in to many different environments. Church is too easy and good to be "played" I dont want that game in my cupboard anymore, i feel guilty under God. I truly long and desire the needs and wants of god, even though my faith has been wilting slowly for years. chime in haters, fakers, lovers, christians, jews, REAL church goers, etc.
> 
> Anyone else feel like this? similar? contrary? lets hear about it


Well if you have to fake feeling churchy then isn't that the meaning of church? the thing to remember is that everyone around you is faking themselves just as hard or harder than you are...
Just ask the people speaking in tongues...Lol. 
So don't feel bad...I think feeling like you aren't as pious as the other church goers is the foundation of organized religion...and we all know that the wise man built his house upon the rock...or the crock, whatever.


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## missnu (Aug 18, 2012)

I think people should be able to put up all the crosses they want, but the world won't run right til fewer people need to look at the cross for their direction.


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## cannabineer (Aug 18, 2012)

alley.walker said:


> *Isn't it funny how liberals want to remove a cross at the 911 site that was so inspirational to so many?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Would you feel the same way about a star, a crescent, a mandala, an eagle's feather? cn


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 19, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> This assumes the person is aware of science. The mechanism of belief has been around before logic and reasoning, and even then it was still based on support, the inclination that what is believed says something accurate about reality. Even animals observe this mechanism. When you rattle the food bowl they believe you are going to put food down, and this belief affects their actions. How does the animal decide if the idea that you will put food down is real or not real? Why doesn't he get excited when you shake the cereal box? He doesn't use logic and investigation, he uses intuition honed by experience. The first time you shake the cereal box, he thinks it's food and reacts accordingly. After a few times, he knows better. No scientific method involved, yet a belief still governs action.
> 
> Beliefs are not based on what is real, they are based on what is convincing. What is convincing is based on values, emotion, experience, and intuition. The act of believing _is_ the act of differentiating what is real and not real to us. The scientific method simply offers a tool to test and refine beliefs for those who value it.


I still don't understand how that makes this statement untrue; 

"I like to point out the awesome fact that beliefs are merely ideas we claim truth to, without evidence to support those claims. If we had evidence to support them, they wouldn't be beliefs now would they?" 

I've used this analagy before. Take gravity, something we know is real (if we conclude that was is real and exists in this reality, is something that can be tested, studied, and repeated). This is something that i am not required to mentally think is real/true for it to actually be real/true. My beliefs are inconsequential, they mean nothing, because regardless of what i think is true/real, untrue/false... it doesn't matter, it exists regardless.

So if you think that god exists (believe), since there is no proof or evidence to support or debunk this claim, we have no way of knowing whether or not god does, or doesn't exist. In order to percieve god existing, or not existing, we are required to form a belief about it... which is nothing more than idea, we claim truth to, without evidence to support that claim. 

If we had evidence to support that claim, we wouldn't be required to beleive it, our beliefs would hold no relevence because regardless of our beliefs, it would be true, like gravity.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 19, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> I still don't understand how that makes this statement untrue;
> 
> "I like to point out the awesome fact that beliefs are merely ideas we claim truth to, without evidence to support those claims. If we had evidence to support them, they wouldn't be beliefs now would they?"
> 
> I've used this analagy before. Take gravity, something we know is real (if we conclude that was is real and exists in this reality, is something that can be tested, studied, and repeated). This is something that i am not required to mentally think is real/true for it to actually be real/true. My beliefs are inconsequential, they mean nothing, because regardless of what i think is true/real, untrue/false... it doesn't matter, it exists regardless.


Then what do I mean when I say I believe in gravity? It's not the same as saying gravity is true because things fall, it's saying, I accept that this information is accurate and will act accordingly. Think about the things we call beliefs, and you'll find they ALL have personally convincing evidence, it's just that sometimes the evidence is an artifact of the way we gather and process information, or has been manipulated by intelectualism.

I agree that if you jump off a cliff you will fall no matter if you believe in gravity or not. But beliefs are not simply truths, beliefs are how we decide which truths to pay attention to. We have one word for the act of belief, yet it is not a unitary experience. By even evoking the concept of belief we implicitly agree that some observations are accurate and some are not. That the completed puzzle exists out there independent of us. The observations which we think are pieces that fit the puzzle are called beliefs. Whether they truly fit or not is irrelevant to the experience of believing they do. Beliefs are based on what is convincing, not what is accurate. Some people believe mystery spots defy gravity because they observe first hand a ball rolling up hill. This belief is inaccurate yet, is it any less of a belief to the person? Truths are universal, beliefs are personal. The same belief system governs subjective things. I believe orange sherbet tastes good and I have solid evidence to back it up, yet that doesn't make it universally true. Beliefs are how each person puts together their personal puzzle. Science offers a way to collectively work on that puzzle, but that development does not change the nature of belief. Beliefs are how we represent the puzzle pieces we have put together for ourselves.

If we remove action, we have no need for beliefs. If we can not do anything about the information we receive, then what value is it to us? A plant doesn't need to know what is true, it doesn't need to construct a puzzle picture, because it can't do anything about it. Evolving a belief system would be a waste of energy. When we are capable of action, then what is true about the world matters. We must base our actions off the information we gather. The actions we choose are based on which information we think is accurate. All beliefs have one thing in common, they are principals of action.

Beliefs also govern our emotions. If I say your mother has been kidnapped by Mormons, and you believe it, you get upset. If you know your mother has died years ago, a puzzle piece which makes you doubt the piece I have communicated to you, you don't believe it and don't get emotional. There is no emotion you have which can not be invoked by a belief. So beliefs decide not only our behavior, but how we feel about the world. The differentiating factor is our perception of the accuracy of the information.



> So if you think that god exists (believe), since there is no proof or evidence to support or debunk this claim, we have no way of knowing whether or not god does, or doesn't exist. In order to percieve god existing, or not existing, we are required to form a belief about it... which is nothing more than idea, we claim truth to, without evidence to support that claim.
> 
> *If we had evidence to support that claim, we wouldn't be required to beleive it*, our beliefs would hold no relevence because regardless of our beliefs, it would be true, like gravity.


Beliefs are relevant only to the person holding them, not to the world. Beliefs are a result of gathering and processing information. If we never gather the information for gravity then it is still a truth, but it is not a belief. So, I think you have it backwards. If we have evidence to support a claim, we are required to believe it, or else risk performing an action that could be dangerous, or feeling emotions which are unjustified. If we have no evidence or reasoning, or even if we have counter evidence, we are still free to be convinced of a belief, but we are no longer free to say it arose from the same system that decides all our other beliefs. If you tell a person free energy is impossible because of thermodynamics, that person can only hold on to his belief in free energy is he discounts your evidence. It's fake, it's a conspiracy, ect. That's because information which we deem accurate decides our beliefs. A person can not think thermodynamics are true and still decide to believe in free energy. Beliefs are a slave to information, therefore, the stronger the information, the more required we are to believe, not the other way around.


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## spandy (Aug 19, 2012)

You dont have to go to church to believe in God. I've found that too many at church are pretenders and are only there for whatever they feel they are gaining from it in this life, rather than to be there to truly worship the Lord. They pass the pot around for all to see who puts money in and who doesn't, it's fucked up and I'm sure the way that makes those feel who can't contribute financially is just terrible. Then some churches sit your ass down in the bishops office and they go over your w-2s together, just to make sure you aren't short changing God. Or the repetitiveness of "our church is the one true church", really, if it was why do you have to assure MEMBERS of this so often. "The Church" is the living Body of Christ comprised of the redeemed in Christ, not some buidling that uses man made controls to suck your pocket dry while making you a mindless, non-questioning sucker.

Its between you and God, what others think is completely irrelevant. I am at "church" everyday, feel closer to God than I have ever in my life, yet I haven't entered a building of worship in over a decade.


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 19, 2012)

Hies, i appologize, i should have clarified. I meant theological/metaphysical/spiritual/supernatural beliefs.

Beliefs we form that cannot be tested by any form of sense perception. These types of beliefs are merely ideas we claim truth to, without any evidence to support those claims (Other than personal, individual experiences, which is not evidence). If we had evidence to support them, they wouldn't be beliefs now would they?

Like i have explained before. I know that everything we think we know, or experience, has the possability of being illusion, or not even existing at all... but if we are to differentiate between what is real, and what is not real, we have to base this information on evidence. Would you not agree? 

Therefore, if what we think we know is real (those things that we find based on evidence; gravity, atoms, subatomic particles etc. etc.) We are not required to believe in them, because they are real regardless of what we think, or how we percieve reality.

The only things we would be required to hold a belief about (in terms of theology, metaphysics, spiritual, supernatural) are things that we do not have any tangable evidence for.


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## D3monic (Aug 19, 2012)

<--agnostic . Believe in the general Idea of a god (be it supernatural, alien, energy ect) but id be damned if I was stupid enough to listen to another human tell me what the grand scheme of things are and then demand my money. I wan't to do that id just get married again.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 19, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Hies, i appologize, i should have clarified. I meant theological/metaphysical/spiritual/supernatural beliefs.
> 
> Beliefs we form that cannot be tested by any form of sense perception. These types of beliefs are merely ideas we claim truth to, without any evidence to support those claims (Other than personal, individual experiences, which is not evidence). If we had evidence to support them, they wouldn't be beliefs now would they?
> 
> ...


Ok I think I see a bit better where you are coming from. You are saying more or less that beliefs fall into two categories, falsifiable or not falsifiable. Once we identify that something is falsifiable, IE is supported by testable evidence, we can move it from the not falsifiable category into the testable category, test it, and see if it's real. If it's not real, we throw it out, and if it is real, we call it fact. Non falsifiable things can have no evidence, or else we would have to put them to the test, be forced to move them into category 1 and sort them out.

So in that sense it's accurate to say that if we had evidence for a belief it wouldn't be a belief, it would be tested and sorted as fact or fiction. So I see now your context, but I still think that context doesn't fully acknowledge the basic neurological phenomena of belief.

I still think you are really talking about faith. I don't like giving pseudoscience the unequal ground of calling their claims beliefs, and my beliefs facts, just because mine are testable. It skips over the fundamental nature of belief, that what we perceive as accurate information, IOW facts, dictates our beliefs. It lends to the idea that we are free to ignore facts and form beliefs in spite of them. It assumes that we have free will over what we believe, instead of acknowledging that beliefs are a consequence of the world. What they have are faith based ideas that they have given equal power to as belief, and that is a mistake unless right by accident. They are both beliefs in the sense that they govern the way we conduct ourselves when interacting with the world, but I think the point you are making is that they are not beliefs at all, and shouldn't be seen as such. By their very definition, theological/metaphysical/spiritual/supernatural beliefs are not actually beliefs, but ideas which intellectualism or faulty perception/processing has elevated to the same influence. So I see that you were making this point, but it's confusing that you summarize by stating the opposite, that evidence negates belief. The context you placed it in makes it an accurate summary, but I think your point speaks to a greater overall truth which contradicts your context.


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 19, 2012)

I hate to say this... but the way you put that, i cannot completely comprehend or understand. I appologize, and feel like an idiot. Can you possably think of an easier to understand more simple way to explain what you wrote there? 

I've read it three times over, seriously, maybe it's just too complicated. 

I think beleifs about supernatural things, are different than beliefs about how someone likes the taste of a candy bar (which is something everyone can experience) and beleifs about something that cannot be tasted, or touched, or felt, or examined. 

Simply stated, i THINK that beleifs about the supernatural, are merely ideas or claims that we have, that we think are true, without having any tangable evidence to support those ideas, or claims. In my opinion, if we did have a supernatural belief that was proven beyond reasonable doubt to be true, we would not be required to hold that belief anymore, because it would be true. Therefor it would turn from a beleif, into a fact. Something that is indisputably the case.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 19, 2012)

No need for apologies. This is of course a subject that greater minds than mine still debate about, so I am not saying I am correct I am just saying that this is the camp I fall under. It does indeed come from a neurological standpoint.

When you call unproven ideas belief, you are conflating belief with faith. Faith is an impostor of belief, for the very reasons you point out. We have two ways of regarding something a truth, we grant it belief, or we grant it faith. If something passes our credence filter, it needs no faith, it is a belief. If something does not pass our credence filter, yet we still regard it as true, it's a faith based idea that we give equal power to as beliefs, for various reasons, but fundamentally different than a belief, as your point demonstrates. 

When you speak of facts you speak of things that help beliefs pass our credence filter, but beliefs do not cease to be beliefs once they coincide with fact, beliefs are dictated by facts.

So I agree that we should differentiate between proven and unproven ideas, but disagree that unproven is beliefs and proven is facts. If you are going to restrict the term belief to one category, I think it's more accurate to say unproven is faith and proven is belief. 

Like the term theory, it's fine to use it casually when talking casually, but when we get technical we have to differentiate. So when we speak causally of religious beliefs we can call them just that, instead of having to say 'religious faith based ideas that govern actions'. (though wouldn't it be nice if religious people could be reminded that their ideas are unproven every time they speak of them) The two are similar enough that it's sometimes okay to equivocate, but when we attempt to differentiate between beliefs by speaking in technical terms, we have to be careful.

It may just be a personal eccentricity of mine not to want to grant claims backed up with pseudoscience the status of beliefs. I acknowledge that they operate as beliefs, but feel the term lends them too much credit. It de-emphasizes the difference between believing something and having faith in something. Of the two ways we have in which we can regard something as true, believing it or granting it faith, the ladder can be demonstrated over and over again to lead not only to false answers, but great suffering. If we look at examples of perfect faith, we have to cite instances like 911 and Heavens Gate. Perfect belief leads only to prudence.

Anyhow, I welcome any discourse you can offer. You have already caused my view to evolve.


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## tyler.durden (Aug 19, 2012)

That was really great to read, you two ^^ Thanks for posting your conversation...


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## cannabineer (Aug 19, 2012)

I would add a tiny editorial to post #62: our beliefs are a consequence of _our perception of_ the world. 

I might also offer a terminological suggestion_ in re_ those beliefs that align with knowable, testable facts. Considering the ultimately subjective nature of all human perception, cognition, ideation ... i have no objection to calling then certainties. This allows room for beliefs that are testable but not yet fully tested, and those which are not testable, but rely on a faith in an unprovable but interesting/consequential epistemological premise. cn


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## Heisenberg (Aug 19, 2012)

I like what Sam has to say about this subject, but I guess that's obvious. I think this quote puts it into perspective.



> ..here we encounter a minor computational difficulty: the number of necessary comparisons grows exponentially as each new proposition is added to the list. How many beliefs could a perfect brain check for logical contradictions? The answer is surprising. Even if a computer were as large as the known universe, built of components no larger than protons, with switching speeds as fast as the speed of light, all laboring in parallel from the moment of the big bang up to the present, it would still be fighting to add a 300th belief to the list. What does this say about the possibility of our ever guaranteeing that our worldview is perfectly free from contradiction: It is not even a dream within a dream


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 20, 2012)

Don't you have to have some amount of faith (complete trust or confidence in something or someone), in order to hold onto a belief (an acceptance that a statement is true, or that something exists) though? 

When we talk about supernatural (ideas) -what most people claim as---> beliefs, where faith is the requirement for the belief instead of evidence... would that not mean that our supernatural beliefs, are merely ideas we claim truth to, without any tangible evidence to support those claims? 

When we delve in to the realm of reality (what we can taste, touch, see, hear, examine, experience objectively), rather than superstition (what we can only experience subjectively) we don't have to have faith... nor do we have to have a belief. These things are real, no matter the amount of faith, regardless of what we believe. Gravity, cells, neurons, atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons, quarks, neutrinos, sub atomic particles etc. etc... these are things we do not need to have faith in, nor are we required to believe in them. They exist, from every ones perception, everyone can see these things with the proper tools and equipment. If we die, they are still there, no matter what we do, no matter what we think, it is irrelevant, they exist within this reality regardless. 

We do not need any amount faith or belief, trust or confidence... that these things exist, nor do we have to think they are true, because no matter what we do or think... within this reality, they exist, they are real, they are true.

Unless of course... everything and nothing is merely an illusion, or if what this is, is all just a dream. But i don't know, i don't really know anything at all.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 20, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Don't you have to have some amount of faith (complete trust or confidence in something or someone), in order to hold onto a belief (an acceptance that a statement is true, or that something exists) though?


Faith seems to morph into whatever meaning is needed. Sometimes it means trust, sometimes it means inference, but the only thing it means exclusively is, dismissing doubt by discounting evidence.

If you are going to define belief as an acceptance that something is true or exists, then you can no longer restrict the term to one category. A delusion is the acceptance that something is true or exists. What is the difference between a belief and a delusion? Evidence.

My only gripe here is that it seems as if you are saying having confidence in gravity does not constitute a belief. I think if we look at what belief is and where it comes from, you would have to say evidence is more closely related to beliefs than is faith. If we are going to exclude one process from the title of belief, then it should be faith. Faith should not lead to belief.



> When we talk about supernatural (ideas) -what most people claim as---> beliefs, where faith is the requirement for the belief instead of evidence... would that not mean that our supernatural beliefs, are merely ideas we claim truth to, without any tangible evidence to support those claims?


Well this does seem to be the question, is faith a substitute for evidence? If it is not, then it contradicts the very intention of belief. Even worse, faith enjoys a level of reverence above evidence, as it is often used to discount it. This leads to outright detriment of the sanctity of belief. If faith causes us to ignore the world, then it becomes the antithesis of belief and so, IMO, should not gain the title. When a religious person says to respect their beliefs, they are working under a false premise that does not often enough get called out. They do not have religious beliefs, they have ideas that do not pass the process we make beliefs go through, and on which they have hung a sign that says 'beliefs'. This sign fools them into acting as if these ideas are real beliefs, and fools many of us as well.



> When we delve in to the realm of reality (what we can taste, touch, see, hear, examine, experience objectively), rather than superstition (what we can only experience subjectively) we don't have to have faith... nor do we have to have a belief. These things are real, no matter the amount of faith, regardless of what we believe. Gravity, cells, neurons, atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons, quarks, neutrinos, sub atomic particles etc. etc... these are things we do not need to have faith in, nor are we required to believe in them. They exist, from every ones perception, everyone can see these things with the proper tools and equipment. If we die, they are still there, no matter what we do, no matter what we think, it is irrelevant, they exist regardless.


Belief does not happen in the realm of reality as you define it. It happens in the subjective consciousnesses. Taste, touch, sounds, ect are never objective. The scientific method happens in reality. In a sense, these are two different credence filters propositions can pass. One is inside our head and imperfect, the other is outside and near perfect.The second filter, science, must prevent itself from beliefs to preserve it's values. It holds facts, and it's 'beliefs' are really just a collection of facts. This is why science never proves a negative, it would require a belief. Science can't say there is no pink elephants, because it can not demonstrate it, it is unable to hold that as fact. Our mind's filter _does_ need to hold beliefs. Our minds can not go through life thinking that pink elephants might be around the next corner. We need to believe that there is no gold at the end of the rainbow. We are capable of action, science is not. 

Inside our head we have beliefs, outside we have facts. We seek to have them agree. 

The point is that religious ideas do not pass the filter of science, which decides facts, and should not pass the filter inside our head, which decides belief. They should not be called beliefs, but pseudo-beliefs. They have used faith to fool the filter and masquerade as beliefs.



> Unless of course... everything and nothing is merely an illusion, or if what this is, is all just a dream. But i don't know, i don't really know anything at all.


You know lots of things, You just can't be certain. You can be reasonably confident. Until you have indication that life is a dream or an illusion you have to operate as if it isn't, and even if it was, you can't escape. What we do know is life plays by rules, and there is nothing wrong with attempting to identify those rules, nothing arrogant or dangerous about it. If we went through life constantly reminding ourselves that we know nothing, we wouldn't know anything.  So lighten up on yourself, you have more figured out than most people.


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## tyler.durden (Aug 21, 2012)

^^ tl;dr


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## Heisenberg (Aug 21, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> ^^ tl;dr


I realize you were joking but if I pretend you weren't I have a chance to reiterate. Lets see if I can refine my argument.

How do we know anything about the world? We gather information. How do we decide what is good information and what is bad? We develop a belief system. When is faith needed to act as if a proposition is true? When the proposition has no place in the world, or when the world has contradicted it. When our system causes us to ignore the world, it is no longer a system designed to tell us what is accurate about the world. It does not deliver beliefs, it delivers delusions.

There, short enough to be a Facebook post.


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 21, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> My only gripe here is that it seems as if you are saying having confidence in gravity does not constitute a belief. I think if we look at what belief is and where it comes from, you would have to say evidence is more closely related to beliefs than is faith. If we are going to exclude one process from the title of belief, then it should be faith. Faith should not lead to belief.


Yes, i know, i am saying that confidence in gravity does not constitute a belief. I think belief here is an illusion, belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true. 

I think i understand where you are coming from. I think simply stated, you are saying that we do believe in things like gravity etc. But i have a different opinion. I don't think that belief is a requirement to understand that gravity etc. exists. We do not have to have a belief, because we know. We have knowledge about them, tangible, testable, repeatable... 

Why would anyone be required to believe in something, that we know exists. I don't believe that gravity exists, i know it does. I don't believe atoms exist, i know they do. It doesn't matter if i propose it to be true, it is, regardless.. and i know it.

When speaking about theological or metaphysical claims... we are not dealing with knowledge at all what so ever. We have no evidence we can share, no observations we can share, no information we can share. Therefore, i state again, and this is just my opinion. That theological/metaphysical/supernatural beliefs, are merely a poetic expression of an idea that we hold, that we claim is true, without having any evidence to support that claim. 

If we did have evidence, observable, testable, repeatable... we would know. Knowing does not require belief, maybe before we know something, it requires some amount of faith... which would turn into belief, but once we become aware of it through observation, inquiry, or information... we can discount faith and belief for knowledge. 

You said faith should not lead to belief, but i don't understand how it can be any other way. How can you believe anything, if you don't have some amount of faith (A strongly held belief or theory/ A system of religious belief/ Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof/Complete trust or confidence in someone or something)? 

I think in order to hold onto a belief one must have faith, in order to hold onto knowledge, one must have information/evidence. 

I think knowledge is different from belief, in a way that faith promotes belief, and information/evidence promotes knowledge. 

In my opinion, if we have knowledge about something, belief is not a requirement to understand that the idea or concept is true... because now that we have enough evidence and information, we now have knowledge about it, we KNOW it is true. 

Which is why i think, that if/when we can gain enough information and evidence to support an idea or concept, we are not required to believe anymore, because we have gained knowledge... and now we know.

When we know something to be true, faith and belief are irrelevant.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 21, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Yes, i know, i am saying that confidence in gravity does not constitute a belief. I think belief here is an illusion, belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.


So when we have confidence in gravity, we are not engaging in a psychological state in which we hold the proposition of gravity to be true? Are we operating on instinct? Does a baby crawl off a table if left alone?



> I think i understand where you are coming from. I think simply stated, you are saying that we do believe in things like gravity etc. But i have a different opinion. I don't think that belief is a requirement to understand that gravity etc. exists. We do not have to have a belief, because we know. We have knowledge about them, tangible, testable, repeatable...


My mother knows god loves her. She feels it. If we found a tangible way to test and confirm god repeatedly, her knowing would feel no different to her. It would not be new information. Many people 'know' things, and their sincerity is indistinguishable from the way you know gravity. You must have had times in your life when you thought you knew something beyond any doubt only to be proven wrong, which is why you understand we can not be certain about anything. 



> Why would anyone be required to believe in something, that we know exists. I don't believe that gravity exists, i know it does. I don't believe atoms exist, i know they do.


If you know something exists, are you free to disbelieve it?

What personal information have you experienced that confirms atoms exist? You did not intuitively know this, you have had to rely on external data and then use inference and reasoning, IOW a belief process. Atoms have been demonstrated to you to the point that no doubt remains, and therefore feels like intuition, but it came to you through a process of determining belief. You were not born knowing about atoms and a person could live a full life never being aware of them. It takes a process of gathering information and judging its accuracy, then using it to make inferences that we operate under. 



> When speaking about theological or metaphysical claims... we are not dealing with knowledge at all what so ever. We have no evidence we can share, no observations we can share, no information we can share. Therefore, i state again, and this is just my opinion. That theological/metaphysical/supernatural beliefs, are merely a poetic expression of an idea that we hold, that we claim is true, without having any evidence to support that claim.


We are dealing with knowledge, what else would you call it? It's knowledge based on ignorance and mistakes, It's not reliable so we don't add it to our 'knowledge' base, but still contains lots of information to share, lots of observations and experiences to share, and can be even be useful. What do you think happens in church? What do you call the theory of dark matter if not knowledge? It is far from fact, yet we know it is out there in the sense that it is part of our accepted knowledge base. Knowing information simply means being familiar with it, or else it means we've captured the truth through investigation and reasoning. Do you disagree that investigation and reasoning are always part of a belief system?



> If we did have evidence, observable, testable, repeatable... we would know. Knowing does not require belief, maybe before we know something, it requires some amount of faith... which would turn into belief, but once we become aware of it through observation, inquiry, or information... we can discount faith and belief for knowledge.


Do you know the flying spaghetti monster does not exist? How can you test that knowledge? Do you know Russel's teapot isn't real? What indisputable evidence do you have? Is your conviction in knowing these things any less than knowing that atoms are real? Which do you deem more likely, that we one day find we've misunderstood atoms, or we find the FSM holding that teapot? The idea that these are fake is merely an idea which we claim truth to without being able to support. By your definition these are beliefs, yet they have reached a level of virtually no doubt, we know these things aren't real.

The only way we can know something without putting it through a belief process is instinct and intuition, both of which by definition can not involve reasoning. Any information which comes to us through reasoning, come to us through a belief process. It is a belief, and there is no higher regard for the truth of a proposition than believing in it.



> You said faith should not lead to belief, but i don't understand how it can be any other way. How can you believe anything, if you don't have some amount of faith (A strongly held belief or theory/ A system of religious belief/ Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof/Complete trust or confidence in someone or something)?


I also defined faith as discounting doubt by dismissing evidence, which is the only definition we are left with when we remove euphemisms. We do not need to refer to confidence as faith, we can call it trust. We do not need to call religious belief a faith, we can call it a dogma, and so on, but when we want the freedom to ignore evidence in the face of doubt, what could we call it besides faith? Stubbornness? Ignorance? Bigotry? Suddenly the synonyms have nothing to do with belief. Just as faith shouldn't. If faith constitutes ignoring evidence (or ignoring the lack of) then it should never be allowed to lead to belief, it works on the opposite principal.



> In my opinion, if we have knowledge about something, belief is not a requirement to understand that the idea or concept is true... because now that we have enough evidence and information, we now have knowledge about it, we KNOW it is true.
> 
> Which is why i think, that if/when we can gain enough information and evidence to support an idea or concept, we are not required to believe anymore, because we have gained knowledge... and now we know.


Except what we know can be wrong, as you understand. We could one day find a tea pot in space, or find Sagan's dragon in the garage, and realize we didn't know what we _believed_ we did. Seems a bit of a betrayal to skepticism to say the knowledge we have ever stops being a belief and starts being a supreme law. Seems more accurate to say answers which arrive by a belief process are beliefs, and answers which arrive by a delusion process are delusions. Science attempts to carefully verify beliefs with facts, pseudoscience attempts to sloppily justify delusions with confirmation. Beliefs follow change, delusions do not.


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## gioua (Aug 21, 2012)

Anyone trying to deter another from a religion no mater what it is is equal to those who want to force religion on you.

You dont Like it... We dont like it..

Change is never anything any one likes unless we want the change.. (change is good if YOU want it.. yet any change you did not want is bad)

I dont want to move.. (a change I did not ask for)

but I know that from my past 40+ years of dealing with change I did not want.. it's never steered me wrong for long since I know what my end goal is.



I dont mind a normal unheated discussion but those who wish to force their opinion on me.. are pushing an agenda based on how they are feeling with their life at this point. We change our minds.. we adapt.. we attempt to do what we feel is right. 
I dont feel that people are bad.. I feel people are in situations they have yet understand how to deal with shit.

Look at some of the convicts in Prison.. the more time they get to sit and think of how they could have and should have done things differently they change their minds as well..

before reacting to how YOU feel... consider yourself in the other persons place.. realize none of us are perfect and our actions determine our future.


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 21, 2012)

I see your point Heis, i agree with a lot, but also dissagree with some. 

I guess my whole premise here is that supernatural ideas can only be percieved as true if one believes... and natural/physical/chemical laws are true no matter what we believe.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 21, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> I see your point Heis, i agree with a lot, but also dissagree with some.
> 
> I guess my whole premise here is that *supernatural ideas can only be percieved as true if one believes.*.. and natural/physical/chemical laws are true no matter what we believe.


It's okay to disagree, I still love you.  Your premise contains a tautology. Supernatural ideas can only be believed (perceived as true) if one believes. You are separating belief from the act of perceiving something as true. We can not separate the act of believing from accepting something as true if they mean the same thing. If we are to preserve your premise, then belief must mean something more. So, we must expand on the definition of belief. When we do, I think we see belief is intended to be a result of evidence, and that faith serves to delude rather than enlighten, with enlightenment being the goal of belief. So, supernatural ideas can only be percieved as true if one deludes themselves, while natural law is free to be believed. Belief is an action. What action is performed when we accept gravity? The act of knowing? Knowing is being familiar with information, or the result of capturing enlightenment through reasoning and experience, instinct, or intuition. Instinct and intuition do not involve beliefs, and I can be familiar with information without believing it. (knowing how to ride a bike) If I gain enlightenment through reasoning and experience, I believe it.

Your premise seems to force my conclusion, unless you can offer a definition of belief that agrees with faith, yet means something more than simply accepting something as true. Faith being motivation to accept something in the absence of any other reason, or in the face of doubt.

These are the sorts of interesting conversations we can have when everybody behaves as adults. True discourse is valuable. I have realized more about the world and myself in our last few exchanges than an entire thread from Chief has ever taught me.


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## VILEPLUME (Aug 21, 2012)

LetsMakePot! said:


> I havent been to church in a while...but i spoke to a friend about this. I felt i was the only one until.
> 
> My presence is the only real part ive consistantly brought to a church and even that i seem to alter to the best of my ability to blend in the most i can. Impressing people, especially ones with importance within the church, with "newfound discoveries of improvement" within myself have become my goal. I raise my hands and sing to the music to appear to have a more intense relationship with god. I pay attention to sermons on the outside, while inside thoughts of anything else take place. I have put more effort in impressing the church and its body then i have trying to impress my mother. Im sick of being what you want. My feelings have driven me to rebel, I would rather easily lie and be praised by everyone than to actually share my own sick and twisted feelings and be "that guy". I have been in and out of several churches and although i have met some awesome people with many churches in the right direction, i feel the church is not a positive place for me. Especially having a chameleon like personality to be able to blend in to many different environments. Church is too easy and good to be "played" I dont want that game in my cupboard anymore, i feel guilty under God. I truly long and desire the needs and wants of god, even though my faith has been wilting slowly for years. chime in haters, fakers, lovers, christians, jews, REAL church goers, etc.
> 
> Anyone else feel like this? similar? contrary? lets hear about it


I went through the same thing. I went to churches where I couldnt express who I am and it felt like everyone had to be nice and act perfect, it made me feel awful inside.

I stopped going to chruch for awhile, but I did end up reading more of the bible. Once I read the whole thing, I soon began to realise how many people in the bible were...people. Making mistakes, doing wrong and not being perfect. I was shocked when I read that Noah got drunk and naked after the land dried, or when King David sent a solider to be killed in battle so he could take his widow, or Jesus' disciples betraying him even though they have seen so much.

All of it made me realise how imperfect I am and how I needed to find a church that would let me be me. I soon found one and was over joyed. No judgements, instead of calling and asking for donations they ask if I need anything. I saw a man who recently lost his car come into the church and did not have enough money to buy a bus pass. Someone from the church took him to the store and bought him a monthly pass. I know other churches do good, but I felt like I was finally seeing a church helping others. Also some people that come dont believe the bible and no one judges them, try to force them to repent, they just show them love because everyone knows you cant make someone a Christian.

Anyways, I will pray for you man and hope that you find your place.


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 21, 2012)

Corso312 said:


> I am the exact opposite..raised catholic and never got into the whole church thing..haven't stepped foot in one in 20 years..was in grade school last time I was there..and I want to get more spiritual and start going to church..but I just think they are all phonies and con men looking to pad the churches pockets..would go to one if I found a decent one with no ulterior motives.


...you might do well to study the gnostics. Sorry, the term seems overused, but really - czech it.

...the urge to go back to it (I think) comes from a need to learn. Look up the original meanings of tithing - might help.


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 21, 2012)

..."but feel so fake in church"

...let's exchange the word church for body. I feel so fake in [a] body. There's a clear distinction between feeling and the body. We use the body to feel with, but the body is the 'medium' (if I can put it that way). Feeling exists separate from the body, maybe it always will / has. The body is a tool that processes 'feeling' and uses the senses (by choice?) for sense gratification, or some constructive / creative thing.

...so, all that just to say that the message is more important than the venue


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## Heisenberg (Aug 22, 2012)

Hrmm,



> According to eliminativism, once folk psychology is overthrown, strict scientific usage will have no place for reference to most of the entities postulated by folk psychology, such as belief. Beliefs, then, like &#8220;celestial spheres&#8221; or &#8220;phlogiston&#8221;, will be judged not actually to exist, but rather to be the mistaken posits of a radically false theory. We may still find it convenient to speak of &#8220;belief&#8221; in informal contexts, if scientific usage is cumbersome, much as we still speak of &#8220;the sun going down&#8221;, but if the concept of belief does not map onto the categories described by a mature scientific understanding of the mind, then, literally speaking, no one believes anything.


So in that sense, beliefs are merely artifacts of unenlightenment. It is an interesting stance and I will think more about it.

Funny that this is included as an afterthought,



> Delusions often do not appear to connect with behavior in the usual way. For example, a victim of Capgras delusion&#8212;a delusion in which the subject asserts that a family member or close friend has been replaced by an identical-looking imposter&#8212;may continue to live with the &#8220;imposter&#8221; and make little effort to find the supposedly missing loved one. Some philosophers have therefore suggested that delusions do not occupy quite the functional role characteristic of belief and thus are not, in fact, beliefs


I suppose this is true of religious delusions as well. If people really thought that heaven was absolute paradise, they'd be dying to get there. If people really thought grandma was watching from heaven, they'd never masturbate. To me this supports the idea that faith based beliefs are a result of an unreliable process counter-productive to the reason we seek truth.


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## themanwiththeplan (Aug 22, 2012)

i believe in God (and generally a higher being and believe in some form of a continuation of existence upon death...just for the record) however i firmly do not believe in churches. 

I really think the churches ideals are a bit twisted and off base with reality. for example they shun the idea of condoms (preggo/std risks) and don't teach young ones about sex or anything of the sort. their stance is "just dont do it till you married so theres nothing to learn here" and what happens? kids get out of the church lifestyle...end up having sex and getting preggo or stds because they werent educated on the topic.

idk how many teens i met in high school who came from catholic schools and ended up either one or the other within their first year in the public school system.

its not just their stance on sex for pleasure and pre marital sex...thats just a prime example.


lets not forget all the scammers out there who profit off of God. A lot of churches are crooked and the prime goal is making money off of your guilt. 

lets not get too deep into the sex scandals where little boys (and less often but also girls) get molested by supposed holy members of society but thats another beef i have.

I feel some of those in the church setting are more messed up than the rest of us but were supposed to go to church every week and listen to them preach all these things they dont follow themselves?

If i didnt write what i put at the beginning of this message you'd swear i dont believe in god but i actually really honestly do. i just dont agree with those in control of god's forums around the world (or at least around the u.s.a)


i dont think you have to go to church to have a relationship with god. the relationship you have with god is within your soul and not within the four walls of a building.

amen?


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 22, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> It's okay to disagree, I still love you.  Your premise contains a tautology. Supernatural ideas can only be believed (perceived as true) if one believes. You are separating belief from the act of perceiving something as true. We can not separate the act of believing from accepting something as true if they mean the same thing. If we are to preserve your premise, then belief must mean something more. So, we must expand on the definition of belief. When we do, I think we see belief is intended to be a result of evidence, and that faith serves to delude rather than enlighten, with enlightenment being the goal of belief. So, supernatural ideas can only be percieved as true if one deludes themselves, while natural law is free to be believed. Belief is an action. What action is performed when we accept gravity? The act of knowing? Knowing is being familiar with information, or the result of capturing enlightenment through reasoning and experience, instinct, or intuition. Instinct and intuition do not involve beliefs, and I can be familiar with information without believing it. (knowing how to ride a bike) If I gain enlightenment through reasoning and experience, I believe it.
> 
> Your premise seems to force my conclusion, unless you can offer a definition of belief that agrees with faith, yet means something more than simply accepting something as true. Faith being motivation to accept something in the absence of any other reason, or in the face of doubt.
> 
> These are the sorts of interesting conversations we can have when everybody behaves as adults. True discourse is valuable. I have realized more about the world and myself in our last few exchanges than an entire thread from Chief has ever taught me.


Love you too bro, i understand now, and have learned a lot too. This was an awesome exchange of ideas, and sound reasoning. I can't give you another definition... i was using the word in the wrong way, i appreciate the way you helped me figure that out. Means a lot man, thanks again. 

Plus rep if i had any more i could give you.


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## cannabineer (Aug 22, 2012)

I'm a bit crestfallen that my bid to enter the exchange failed. cn


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## 420IAMthatIAM (Aug 22, 2012)

LetsMakePot! said:


> I havent been to church in a while...but i spoke to a friend about this. I felt i was the only one until.
> 
> My presence is the only real part ive consistantly brought to a church and even that i seem to alter to the best of my ability to blend in the most i can. Impressing people, especially ones with importance within the church, with "newfound discoveries of improvement" within myself have become my goal. I raise my hands and sing to the music to appear to have a more intense relationship with god. I pay attention to sermons on the outside, while inside thoughts of anything else take place. I have put more effort in impressing the church and its body then i have trying to impress my mother. Im sick of being what you want. My feelings have driven me to rebel, I would rather easily lie and be praised by everyone than to actually share my own sick and twisted feelings and be "that guy". I have been in and out of several churches and although i have met some awesome people with many churches in the right direction, i feel the church is not a positive place for me. Especially having a chameleon like personality to be able to blend in to many different environments. Church is too easy and good to be "played" I dont want that game in my cupboard anymore, i feel guilty under God. I truly long and desire the needs and wants of god, even though my faith has been wilting slowly for years. chime in haters, fakers, lovers, christians, jews, REAL church goers, etc.
> 
> Anyone else feel like this? similar? contrary? lets hear about it


http://youtu.be/3ejarAo6QhE


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## Heisenberg (Aug 22, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I'm a bit crestfallen that my bid to enter the exchange failed. cn


Sorry, I took your post to be spectator commentary. You have such a humble way of presenting yourself.


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## cannabineer (Aug 22, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Sorry, I took your post to be spectator commentary. You have such a humble way of presenting yourself.


I appreciate the compliment! cn


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## NetGuruINC (Aug 23, 2012)

LetsMakePot! said:


> I havent been to church in a while...but i spoke to a friend about this. I felt i was the only one until.
> 
> My presence is the only real part ive consistantly brought to a church and even that i seem to alter to the best of my ability to blend in the most i can. Impressing people, especially ones with importance within the church, with "newfound discoveries of improvement" within myself have become my goal. I raise my hands and sing to the music to appear to have a more intense relationship with god. I pay attention to sermons on the outside, while inside thoughts of anything else take place. I have put more effort in impressing the church and its body then i have trying to impress my mother. Im sick of being what you want. My feelings have driven me to rebel, I would rather easily lie and be praised by everyone than to actually share my own sick and twisted feelings and be "that guy". I have been in and out of several churches and although i have met some awesome people with many churches in the right direction, i feel the church is not a positive place for me. Especially having a chameleon like personality to be able to blend in to many different environments. Church is too easy and good to be "played" I dont want that game in my cupboard anymore, i feel guilty under God. I truly long and desire the needs and wants of god, even though my faith has been wilting slowly for years. chime in haters, fakers, lovers, christians, jews, REAL church goers, etc.
> 
> Anyone else feel like this? similar? contrary? lets hear about it



You guys needs to check out "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsh. What ive learned is that there is NO SUCH THING as right and wrong, we create whats right and whats wrong with our own consciousness. GOD does not judge you on your daily activities, he is simply an observer. Believe it or not, we all chose to come here to earth (long story read the book) to "experience" what our consciousness already knows. Hitler went to heaven, I know it sounds crazy as hell, but he did. Every jewish person that died in the holocaust chose to experience that life before even coming to this earth. Now I know thats gonna touch alot of people in either the right or wrong way, but it is truth.

There is NO SUCH THING AS RIGHT AND WRONG. When people say "God is always forgiving" or "God is always good" people dont take it literally. It's like letting your kids out in the backyard to play, if the kid slips and falls, or bumps his knee, kids always cry like its the end of the world right? But the parent doesnt trip because the parent knows its just a little boo boo, and your in the safety of the backyard of our home.

This is what I mean when I say GOD is simply an "observer", he is watching us play, and watching us cry when we fall and bump our knee. People ask all the time "If there is a GOD then why doesnt he help innocent people?". Well there is your answer, because NOTHING bad can ever happen to us, we think "death" is a tragedy, and we cry like a little kid who has a boo boo. And its actually the best experience you will ever have on earth.


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 23, 2012)

Heis, i found this and thought i was relevent to the conversation we had.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 23, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Heis, i found this and thought i was relevent to the conversation we had.
> 
> View attachment 2306209


Nicely said. I would add also that faith greases the wheels of pseudoscience, allowing people to accept logical mistakes and propaganda as evidence. My mother looks around the world can can not fathom it's complication arising by any other means than intention, religion then offers her an explanation which accommodates. That explanation then gives her motivation to reject explanations and to ignore criticism, religion then rewards that motivation by assigning it pride.

Accepting a belief also means accepting it's dispositions. If I accept that Jesus is divine, then I also accept that any criticism of his words is wrong. If I accept that faith is required to get into heaven, I also accept that anything trying to dispel my faith is dangerous to my going to heaven.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 23, 2012)

NetGuruINC said:


> You guys needs to check out "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsh. What ive learned is that there is NO SUCH THING as right and wrong, we create whats right and whats wrong with our own consciousness. GOD does not judge you on your daily activities, he is simply an observer. Believe it or not, we all chose to come here to earth (long story read the book) to "experience" what our consciousness already knows. Hitler went to heaven, I know it sounds crazy as hell, but he did. Every jewish person that died in the holocaust chose to experience that life before even coming to this earth. Now I know thats gonna touch alot of people in either the right or wrong way, but it is truth.
> 
> There is NO SUCH THING AS RIGHT AND WRONG. When people say "God is always forgiving" or "God is always good" people dont take it literally. It's like letting your kids out in the backyard to play, if the kid slips and falls, or bumps his knee, kids always cry like its the end of the world right? But the parent doesnt trip because the parent knows its just a little boo boo, and your in the safety of the backyard of our home.
> 
> This is what I mean when I say GOD is simply an "observer", he is watching us play, and watching us cry when we fall and bump our knee. People ask all the time "If there is a GOD then why doesnt he help innocent people?". Well there is your answer, because NOTHING bad can ever happen to us, we think "death" is a tragedy, and we cry like a little kid who has a boo boo. And its actually the best experience you will ever have on earth.


That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You see, I read another book, and it said nothing Neale Donald Walsh says is true. I now have as much evidence against your theory as you have for it.


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## mindphuk (Aug 23, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You see, I read another book, and it said nothing Neale Donald Walsh says is true. I now have as much evidence against your theory as you have for it.


Neal Donald Walsh doesn't offer his own opinion, he is only explaining the facts as god told him.


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## 2180628097 (Aug 29, 2012)

good thread,ty
I am a tad bit religious,but I believe living a spiritual life is where it is at for me.I could post my opinion but that will not help anything.I will post my experience and let it stand for itself.
24 years ago my head was full of crap.i was very angry and screwed up.i felt my childhood religion had failed me.The preachers conception of God,Jesus,or whatever did not work for me.I felt like a hopeless loser,and yes,a fake.
*Here is a major problem I had
I was judging my insides by their outsides.Make sense?They appear to be happy,or have a great relationship with God ,but inside I felt like crap.I was comparing me to them.That is a game I cannot possibly win.I quit doing it.*

One day a lady friend with whom I had talked too had a great idea.She said to me,why don`t you set all that stuff aside and start over with your own conception of God or a loving Creator?Wow,I had never thought of that,and I did not know I could.So,I tried.I did several exercises to help me get those old ideas out of my head.I got a piece of paper,and on the left side I wrote my old conception of God down.I drew a line down the middle of the page.On the right side,I wrote down all the things I wanted my conception of my creator to be.You know,the good stuff.I cut the paper in half on the line,discarding the left side.I folded up the right side and when I thought about praying or God,I used the right side of the page for help.It gradually worked,helping me to replace the old ideas that did not work for new ideas that did work.
a example of the things on my left side which did not work
judgemental
harsh
unforigivng
did not like me
did not do anything for me
kept score
up in the clouds watching
etc

on my right side my new things looked something like this

loves me
forgiving
wants to help me
does not keep score
is always there
is inside me
etc

so,that helped me start on a new relationship with my Creator with my own conception ,not some preachers.
In the past 24 years,I have come to believe the spiritual life is about relationships
between you and me
my Creator and me
and me and me

the best way I have found to find happiness is to harm no one but to try to help anyone who crosses my path daily,with no strings attached,and no judging.
Happiness comes from right living,not from a Church on Sunday morning.
I try to live right,daily.If something bugs me,I try to take care of it asap,freeing my mind to be happy today.
To me,my Creator has all Power,and if He/She/It truly does love me,I have no fear about anything in life.I just do what is set in front of me today.
I consider what other people do and Churchs do is "none of my business".My business is to keep close to my Creator and help others,and that provides self confidence and happiness for me,and Independence from this world.

Is it worng to smoke a little?I do not think so.
My creator made this world and al that grows in it.it is here for a reason.

I hope this helps you find your journey thru life more pleasant somehow

Tommy








LetsMakePot! said:


> I havent been to church in a while...but i spoke to a friend about this. I felt i was the only one until.
> 
> My presence is the only real part ive consistantly brought to a church and even that i seem to alter to the best of my ability to blend in the most i can. Impressing people, especially ones with importance within the church, with "newfound discoveries of improvement" within myself have become my goal. I raise my hands and sing to the music to appear to have a more intense relationship with god. I pay attention to sermons on the outside, while inside thoughts of anything else take place. I have put more effort in impressing the church and its body then i have trying to impress my mother. Im sick of being what you want. My feelings have driven me to rebel, I would rather easily lie and be praised by everyone than to actually share my own sick and twisted feelings and be "that guy". I have been in and out of several churches and although i have met some awesome people with many churches in the right direction, i feel the church is not a positive place for me. Especially having a chameleon like personality to be able to blend in to many different environments. Church is too easy and good to be "played" I dont want that game in my cupboard anymore, i feel guilty under God. I truly long and desire the needs and wants of god, even though my faith has been wilting slowly for years. chime in haters, fakers, lovers, christians, jews, REAL church goers, etc.
> 
> Anyone else feel like this? similar? contrary? lets hear about it


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Aug 29, 2012)

Nice post.

Welcome to RIU.


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## newbyy (Aug 29, 2012)

well church or no church you can do what you want. if you don't want to go to the church. then do not


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## 2180628097 (Aug 29, 2012)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> Nice post.
> 
> Welcome to RIU.


thank you greatwhitenorth
I appreciate the welcome


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## cannabineer (Aug 29, 2012)

Numbers, this is not a swipe, but it does sound to me like you created your own concept of a Creator _à la carte_. My question is ... what qualities that are beyond your choice and influence do you ascribe to a Creator, how, why? cn


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## carl.burnette (Aug 29, 2012)

I usually dont reply to these sorts of thread but your entry really hit me. 

I have had a similar revelation the past year or so. 

My fathers a pastor so I've been in the church for years but it never really hit home at all. Once he retired I stopped going to church. Then about a year ago I started reading my bible. I mean REALLY reading it. Starting from scratch. No preconcieved notions or prejudices (well, as open minded as I can be I guess.. you still have notions & whatnot) & Holy Hallejuya did my eyes get opened.

I have read my bible more in the past year than I did the entire rest of my life. I read it starting with the Gospels & re read them. probably 10 times in the first 6 months. I learned for myself not just listening to dad & the rest of the gang & I discovered a few things like MY WALK is not the same as anyone else's walk. There are FAR Less rules than churches teach etc.

Its been an incredible journey so far & looking forward to the rest of it. My father thinks I'm backslidden like crazy but I KNOW my walk is closer now than ever. 

I have no idea whats next. I dont pretend to know everything or even that what is right for me is right for everyone. The fact is I now know that I DON'T KNOW what's right for others. 

Anyways, I really don't want to get into a big debate with people calling me names (don't really care to tell you the truth) but it would be nice to talk to other Christians that may have had similar experiences. 

For myself, I believe that the bible is the word of God but I don't know if its totally accurate in the details (human translation & all that) but I think it certainly teaches the basics that can be understood. Love your God with all your heart & all your mind & all your soul & love your neighbor at least as much as you love yourself. Everything else is window dressing.

In the church we heard all the rules but I read the bible & Jesus never told anyone to go & become a Jew or to follow the Jewish laws. If we all just followed the basics the world would be a much better place.

Anyways.. too deep a conversation to be had at work. Might continue this later.

Cya

Forgot to mention I am in my 40's, not a rebellious teenage


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## 2180628097 (Aug 30, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Numbers, this is not a swipe, but it does sound to me like you created your own concept of a Creator _à la carte_. My question is ... what qualities that are beyond your choice and influence do you ascribe to a Creator, how, why? cn



what i did was start from scratch like carl mentioned in his post.I had preconceived ideas etc that wasn`t working.I basically had to clear my head and open my mind.
It was just a starting point and that exercise was a reasonable starting point for me to start out with.
Qualities beyond my choice?
Grace which is love and power.Power for me to live happily today and direction in my life.I get a lot of direction in my life today,I no longer feel lost or unloved.
I feel I have a purpose in living today and feel like I am not a wart on the face of humanity anymore.


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 30, 2012)

We absolutely must leave room for doubt or there is no progress and no learning. There is no learning without having to pose a question. And a question requires doubt. People search for certainty. But there _is_ no certainty. People are terrified &#8212; how can you live _and not know_? It is not odd at all. You only think you know, as a matter of fact. And most of your actions are based on incomplete knowledge and you really don't know what it is all about, or what the purpose of the world is, or know a great deal of other things. It is possible to live and not know.


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## polyarcturus (Aug 30, 2012)

organized religion is a bane of human civilization. the belief in a higher power is not.

with that said all "churchs" should be shut down and places of worship should be the homes of the believers, or a place purchased or leased directly by the collective believers, with no one leader, religion is much like a dictatorship from what ive seen.


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## 2180628097 (Sep 1, 2012)

now about those hypocrites and Church fakes

a old man,my friend ,who was 89 yrs old at the time told me a true story

a lady asked him if a certain man attended the Church he attended.He said yes.She went on a rant about how he was a sorry sob etc

well,my friend said,you should have seen him before he started coming to Church.


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## gioua (Sep 1, 2012)

2180628097 said:


> now about those hypocrites and Church fakes
> 
> a old man,my friend ,who was 89 yrs old at the time told me a true story
> 
> ...



this proves what??


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## gioua (Sep 1, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> organized religion is a bane of human civilization. the belief in a higher power is not.
> 
> with that said all "churchs" should be shut down and places of worship should be the homes of the believers, or a place purchased or leased directly by the collective believers, with no one leader, religion is much like a dictatorship from what ive seen.


you need to attend a better Church.


find one what meets what you are into.. 


larger ones are surviving on your money.. smaller ones survive on will.


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## gioua (Sep 1, 2012)

lets all discount all the societies who did massive religious mounuments to their God. (Gods)

I fear those people who look back on what our ancestors did based on their believes and think.. Ahhhh they were all just "high".. and have a conception of what they thought was real.. is all a mess of Hokum

Yeah ... like today's World would build the massive structures world wide.... beacuse we LIKE too..



Prove to me that the Pyramids ALL thru out the world (not just in Egypt ) are just built beacuse they felt they needed too..




stop discounting the past based on what you feel-know is the present..

There IS more to this puzzle then what you see in front of you,


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## newbyy (Sep 7, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Numbers, this is not a swipe, but it does sound to me like you created your own concept of a Creator _à la carte_. My question is ... what generic cialis qualities that are beyond your choice and influence do you ascribe to a Creator, how, why? cn


*well church or no church you can do what you want. **thanks for share...*


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## polyarcturus (Sep 8, 2012)

gioua said:


> you need to attend a better Church.
> 
> 
> find one what meets what you are into..
> ...



perhaps i was not clear. i do not attend church. fuck religion. fuck churches. they are simply detrimental to human development since the simple concept of church is outdated and corrupt. treat the universe as your church and you will no longer need to attend one.

side note: i think the probability of there being an all knowing omnipotent being with complete control of the universe made of matter(wtf is god made of?) that exist outside our universe is very unlike. .0(add a million zeros)1 chance.IMO


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## eye exaggerate (Oct 12, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> *Question everything*, do no accept any notion until you can prove it to yourself...


...does God exist?


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## cannabineer (Oct 12, 2012)

...and do the bad ones go to kitty heaven, as balls of yarn? cn


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## eye exaggerate (Oct 12, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> ...and do the bad ones go to kitty heaven, as balls of yarn? cn


...or as sweaters for dogs?


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## cannabineer (Oct 12, 2012)

"Thou shalt have no other dogs before me." cn


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## eye exaggerate (Oct 12, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> "Thou shalt have no other dogs before me." cn



...unless it's frickin' freezing and you need to get the fck back to your igloo for Bay(of fundy)watch!


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## cannabineer (Oct 12, 2012)

Baywatch, Hudson edition.  cn







(I must admit, however, that I expect such statuesque ladies in such weather to have nips from which one could hang a towel.)


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## eye exaggerate (Oct 12, 2012)

^ keep posting images like that and I'll do it for them  (x1)...(ok, _maybe_ 3)


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## gioua (Oct 15, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...does God exist?


.......do you?


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## Zaehet Strife (Oct 15, 2012)

gioua said:


> .......do you?


I'm not quite sure...


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