# umm.. best light distance from center of bulb to foliage?



## JD_85 (Sep 2, 2015)

so long story short, ive got two plants that out grew their environment. they are about 83" tall after the stretch with the pot. and 46" is the lowest viable branch..so my question is, if i make a vert. circle with a cage. how many inches should i keep plant matter from 1k. and how many inches should i keep plant matted from a 400 watt? 
ive got an extra 1k and an extra 400w that i will try to do a cage with.


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## ttystikk (Sep 2, 2015)

24" from the thouie to start, then they can get a bit closer as they harden off to the intensity.

Start with 12" from the 400, same idea.


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## JD_85 (Sep 3, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> 24" from the thouie to start, then they can get a bit closer as they harden off to the intensity.
> 
> Start with 12" from the 400, same idea.


sweet, thank you


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## pilsung (Sep 23, 2015)

if you use a 20" fan under the bulb it'll make a wider column of air that hit's the plants with cool air making it possible to get girls closer than you could with a smaller fan with out burning them. 
i was using 10" fans for a couple runs and had to keep girls too far back and got very airy buds as a result. switched to box fans and can get them within a foot of a 600 without issues.

 

you can't tell in the picture but the air also makes the bulb swing in a small circle that helps light penetration to the plants as well. good luck with your girl.


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## JD_85 (Sep 23, 2015)

pilsung said:


> if you use a 20" fan under the bulb it'll make a wider column of air that hit's the plants with cool air making it possible to get girls closer than you could with a smaller fan with out burning them.
> i was using 10" fans for a couple runs and had to keep girls too far back and got very airy buds as a result. switched to box fans and can get them within a foot of a 600 without issues.
> 
> View attachment 3506353
> ...


thank you for the info Pilsung.
as you can probably tell this my first vert. i usuly wouldnt jump rite in but, after the stretch, there was no way to fit them in a 5x8 with the others. so i had to tare down my veg room and convert into a make shift bud room. ill try to get some pics up in the next day or two


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## JD_85 (Sep 23, 2015)

10 gal of peat V.S. 10 gal of coco is a world of differance


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## pilsung (Sep 24, 2015)

if i was starting from the beginning, i'd do coco with canna nutes.


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## Kush Killington (Sep 30, 2015)

18" circular floor fan ftw


My plants were 20"s from those 400s to start. Definately cudve had em closer.

..damn need to update my thread haha. Been busy.

Sir KK


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## harris hawk (Oct 1, 2015)

any were from 12 -30 inches -"use back of hand test" to determine that


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## ttystikk (Oct 1, 2015)

I've been at this awhile and I've worked my way up to 30W/ft². Each step up gets better quality and quantity, but I'm not a big fan of the extra power used.

I'm up to between 3800-5100W now, and I think that rather than continuing to throw more HID lamps at the problem, I'd try LED. Soooooo... CXB3590 here I come! I can get DE level light intensity levels with less than half the watts. Just what the doctor ordered...


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## Kush Killington (Oct 1, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> I've been at this awhile and I've worked my way up to 30W/ft². Each step up gets better quality and quantity, but I'm not a big fan of the extra power used.
> 
> I'm up to between 3800-5100W now, and I think that rather than continuing to throw more HID lamps at the problem, I'd try LED. Soooooo... CXB3590 here I come! I can get DE level light intensity levels with less than half the watts. Just what the doctor ordered...


How is w/ft^2 calculated in a circular set up? watts/surface area comes out to a loow number. But then again i guess the parameters for a vert grow are diff for a horizontal. 50w/ft^2 flat = ?w/ft^2 vert

Sir KK


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## JD_85 (Oct 1, 2015)

so this is what i have so far. its kinda like a red headed step child. vert is not my forte just yet. i hardly have enough time to take care of the main bud room and what was my outdoor plant. i work a lot of overtime and my wife works when i am home so i can watch my boy. 
so far this has been the worst in 7 or 8 years. enough with excuses


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## ttystikk (Oct 1, 2015)

Kush Killington said:


> How is w/ft^2 calculated in a circular set up? watts/surface area comes out to a loow number. But then again i guess the parameters for a vert grow are diff for a horizontal. 50w/ft^2 flat = ?w/ft^2 vert
> 
> Sir KK


Watts per square foot is calculated the same way vertically as it is horizontally. My panels are 6' tall x 4' wide = 24 ft². Four panels in a silo = 96 ft². 

3 x 860W CDM = 2580W/96ft²=26.87x .95 efficiency factor (significant bounce area at top and bottom, it's covered in panda but it's not perfect) = 25.5W/ft² effective.


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## ttystikk (Oct 1, 2015)

JD_85 said:


> so this is what i have so far. its kinda like a red headed step child. vert is not my forte just yet. i hardly have enough time to take care of the main bud room and what was my outdoor plant. i work a lot of overtime and my wife works when i am home so i can watch my boy.
> so far this has been the worst in 7 or 8 years. enough with excuses


1. Put up white panda film on your walls
2. Put some wire fencing or netting up against the walls, outside the panda film so you can...
3. Use vine clips and lengths of soft tie to train the plants up and back against the trellis.
4. All the normal rules of gardening still apply.

I see nothing wrong with your plants that vertical growing might have caused...


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Oct 1, 2015)

It's 92.96 million miles guys. Sun to earth.


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## Kush Killington (Oct 1, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Watts per square foot is calculated the same way vertically as it is horizontally. My panels are 6' tall x 4' wide = 24 ft². Four panels in a silo = 96 ft².
> 
> 3 x 860W CDM = 2580W/96ft²=26.87x .95 efficiency factor (significant bounce area at top and bottom, it's covered in panda but it's not perfect) = 25.5W/ft² effective.


Hm so my circle is roughly 46" across, 36" tall with 3 stacked 400ws. Cylinder SA = 2pi • rh + 2pi • r^2.
Drop the 2pi•r^2 (no top or bottom to cylinder)
So: sa = 2pi • 23(36)
= 2pi • 828"
= 5202.477in^2
= 36.128ft^2
Divide into watts
1200/36.128 = 33.215w/sqft not including light loss to efficiency.

So id say ~30w/sqft
Hm id like to see atleast 50 but id b hard pressed to cool all that light. For now i gotta get my training down. I tried to keep growth flat to the screen but damn my bitches stretch. Ran outta screen so jus had to let em grow outward. Think ill jus do a dubble harvest and let the shaded stuff fill in.

Sir KK

Bruuh gotta get me some of those cdms!
Wat kinda ballasts they run on? Any recommended distributors? Kinda btus those things put off?


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## Kush Killington (Oct 1, 2015)

JD_85 said:


> so this is what i have so far. its kinda like a red headed step child. vert is not my forte just yet. i hardly have enough time to take care of the main bud room and what was my outdoor plant. i work a lot of overtime and my wife works when i am home so i can watch my boy.
> so far this has been the worst in 7 or 8 years. enough with excuses


Its a great start thou. Vert is kinda awkward at first. The thing i struggle with most is training. Since i dont take clones (limitation reasons) all my plants are a lil diff so its hard to train everything evenly. Itll all come wit time thou

Sir KK


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## ttystikk (Oct 1, 2015)

Kush Killington said:


> Hm so my circle is roughly 46" across, 36" tall with 3 stacked 400ws. Cylinder SA = 2pi • rh + 2pi • r^2.
> Drop the 2pi•r^2 (no top or bottom to cylinder)
> So: sa = 2pi • 23(36)
> = 2pi • 828"
> ...


The 860W CDM lamps themselves cost about a Franklin, but they run on magnetic thousand watt ballast set to MH. Only. They also run in the vertical position. ONLY. But the ballast is cheap and so the whole setup is a big cost saver.

http://advancedtechlighting.com/cdmea860.htm

In the donut you describe, don't run thousand watt HPS unless it's on a mover, diameter is just too small. Three 600W HPS would be badass... but two 860W CDM would kill it!

The heat is 860W, so between a 600W and a thouie. It's all the same heat once the environmental control system sees it.


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## Kush Killington (Oct 1, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> The 860W CDM lamps themselves cost about a Franklin, but they run on magnetic thousand watt ballast set to MH. Only. They also run in the vertical position. ONLY. But the ballast is cheap and so the whole setup is a big cost saver.
> 
> http://advancedtechlighting.com/cdmea860.htm
> 
> ...


Fo sho bro thanks fo the advice. Im definately lookin too upgrade. My ballasts and bulbs are old as shit. Dont think ive ever replaced one except wen bulbs burn out and i had one ballast explode (internally).

Sir KK


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## ttystikk (Oct 2, 2015)

Kush Killington said:


> Fo sho bro thanks fo the advice. Im definately lookin too upgrade. My ballasts and bulbs are old as shit. Dont think ive ever replaced one except wen bulbs burn out and i had one ballast explode (internally).
> 
> Sir KK


The CDM lamps produce a really nice quality of light, you'll enjoy working in it compared to HPS or MH. The ladies love them; I'm getting really nice frost. They produce well, maybe 15% less than HPS- but then you're saving 15% on power usage, so efficiency is a wash.

The only way to really upgrade is to go to COB LED; I'm not sure about the new ballast being the secret weapon for the similar tech 315W LEC lamps to be so much better.

I've had a few capacitors fail in my magnetic ballasts over time; replacing one is not a difficult or expensive fix.


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## JD_85 (Oct 2, 2015)

Kush Killington said:


> Its a great start thou. Vert is kinda awkward at first. The thing i struggle with most is training. Since i dont take clones (limitation reasons) all my plants are a lil diff so its hard to train everything evenly. Itll all come wit time thou
> 
> Sir KK


i only did this vert because i had no room in da bud room and i dont have enough power yet to set up another 2k. i feel comfortable with 1.4k and this was the only way i could think of. plus im so strapped for time so im only watering and feeding this vert. 
i would like to get familiar with a small 400w cage before i go all in.
im also in the process of trying to get down to 1 plant per 1k... so much easier!!! ive gone from 64count to 32count to 6count stayed at 6 for a while then the last 2 or 3 grows have been 4count.
then i over vegged the last 4count, so i stuffed two in a 5x8 and stuck two in makeshift vert bud room 
thank you guys and galls for all the help. ive got a whole lot of reading to do.
here is a quick pic of the horizontal room... 2k two 818 headbands


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## ttystikk (Oct 29, 2015)

Kush Killington said:


> How is w/ft^2 calculated in a circular set up? watts/surface area comes out to a loow number. But then again i guess the parameters for a vert grow are diff for a horizontal. 50w/ft^2 flat = ?w/ft^2 vert
> 
> Sir KK


Sorry I didn't see this until now. The plain and simple truth is that vertical canopy surface area is the same as any other, only it's tipped up ninety degrees. Your surface area calculation should be circumference times height. If mine always seemed eyebrow raisingly low, that's because they were.


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## legallyflying (Nov 5, 2015)

We go 16" from bulb to cage but you can NOT let them grow through the cage. Max yield at that distance although some varietis don't like the light that close...


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## NebulousPLM (Nov 16, 2015)

legallyflying said:


> We go 16" from bulb to cage but you can NOT let them grow through the cage. Max yield at that distance although some varietis don't like the light that close...


Found this online in reference to vertical growing... At 12 inches do you find that it's too hot?


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## ttystikk (Nov 16, 2015)

NebulousPLM said:


> Found this online in reference to vertical growing... At 12 inches do you find that it's too hot?


Twelve inches with a thouie is definitely too hot, at least without a cooltube.

Sixteen to twenty is much better.


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## NebulousPLM (Nov 16, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Twelve inches with a thouie is definitely too hot, at least without a cooltube.
> 
> Sixteen to twenty is much better.


I'm stoked to start vert. 
Should be going starting Dec 1... I'm thinking 18 inch radius circle around the bulb.. Then an octagon of trellis around them.


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## ttystikk (Nov 16, 2015)

NebulousPLM said:


> I'm stoked to start vert.
> Should be going starting Dec 1... I'm thinking 18 inch radius circle around the bulb.. Then an octagon of trellis around them.


Aha! I've seen your kind before! You're just a Chuck Norris wannabe...


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## Craig1969SS (Jan 15, 2016)

I use 600's without a cage and get mine 10" away from the bulb. You give up a lot of intensity for every inch you move away. My room temp gets no higher than 72 though with 2 bare 600's and a 600 in a hood vented in the 10x11' bedroom. I use 20" box fans under the lights


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## NebulousPLM (Jan 15, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Aha! I've seen your kind before! You're just a Chuck Norris wannabe...


I started my vert the 1st of Jan. 
I'll let you know how it turns out, since your RIU presence has contributed greatly to my endeavor...


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## NebulousPLM (Jan 15, 2016)

Craig1969SS said:


> I use 600's without a cage and get mine 10" away from the bulb. You give up a lot of intensity for every inch you move away. My room temp gets no higher than 72 though with 2 bare 600's and a 600 in a hood vented in the 10x11' bedroom. I use 20" box fans under the lights


Ya, those fans really knock heat off the 600 bulb. There's about a 1 inch gap between my bulb and fan, and I can literally put my hand underneath the bulb and it won't burn. I can touch the bottom, still won't burn. Now the sides... That's another story. Plus the bare bulb has helped supplement heat so my heater works smarter not harder ! 

I keep my girls about 12in from the bulb.


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## ttystikk (Jan 15, 2016)

NebulousPLM said:


> I started my vert the 1st of Jan.
> I'll let you know how it turns out, since your RIU presence has contributed greatly to my endeavor...


Thank you, I consider that an honor. Pics?


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## NebulousPLM (Jan 16, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Thank you, I consider that an honor. Pics?


I'll snap some when I go tomorrow! 
It's definitely not as fancy as your setup but on my way! Haha


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## m4s73r (Jan 16, 2016)

Right on Nebulous, Nice to see another vert grower. Cheers.


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## JD_85 (Jan 16, 2016)

Thanks to all who have helped with my first vert. The yields were so sick I had to do it again! I think my veg room is now my new vert room!
I added a hexagon screen this time, and is working better. 
Got 4 in there now. Three r in super soil and 1 in coco. The coco isn't tied down at all, 
If I remember they are lemon garlic og in


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## JD_85 (Jan 16, 2016)

Lemon garlic in coco and ghost train haze #1, g,s,cookies. And the keeper of 818 headband In super soil


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## JD_85 (Jan 16, 2016)

Pic


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## medicalMonster (Jan 17, 2016)

My two cents and nothing else - take with a grain of salt -

Their is no height. It doesn't exist. Sir Jonathan at 10,000 feet growing in 20 degrees vs Mr ham growing at -150 below sea and +28. Distance means squat.

You need most important to read your plants. Period. That's it. 
Second, if in doubt, IR temp gauge. Must have. 75-80 canopy MAX for most strains. 

Good luck. I don't mean to offend anyone. I just write super fast and I come across as a dick but i mean no harm. PCE


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## Craig1969SS (Jan 17, 2016)

medicalMonster said:


> My two cents and nothing else - take with a grain of salt -
> 
> Their is no height. It doesn't exist. Sir Jonathan at 10,000 feet growing in 20 degrees vs Mr ham growing at -150 below sea and +28. Distance means squat.
> 
> ...


IR temp gauge? Is that like a temp gun or a digital thermometer. Yes reading your plants is primary. You're kind of behind the 8 ball if you don't have a feel for that.


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## Craig1969SS (Jan 17, 2016)

Craig1969SS said:


> IR temp gauge? Is that like a temp gun or a digital thermometer. Yes reading your plants is primary. You're kind of behind the 8 ball if you don't have a feel for that.


This has been helpful to me getting high's and lows over 24 hrs and to get an idea of canopy temps


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## NebulousPLM (Jan 17, 2016)

If you get an indoor/outdoor thermometer, you can hang the cord right at your canopy. That's what I do.
So when I press the 'in/out' button I can change from my overall room temp/hum, to my canopy temp/hum


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## NebulousPLM (Jan 17, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Thank you, I consider that an honor. Pics?






I'm training them to grow outward and wrap around the cage like vines. I think I left the light too low, I definitely forgot that I should probably raise it once a week, or so. so upward growth stopped for a bit. Since this pictures, I've raised the bulb about 4-6 inches.
One problem I'm running into though is bud regions start to grow though the chicken wire (which, like you said, is a PITA).

I'm wondering if I should start to cut away at the fan leaves that are pressing against the screen so that light can reach the back of the canopy easier?



m4s73r said:


> Right on Nebulous, Nice to see another vert grower. Cheers.


I appreciate it! Let's hope this goes well! Haha


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## ttystikk (Jan 18, 2016)

I really had bad luck with my plants behind the screen. I was thinking you were just using it to protect the lamp. 

Add another lamp instead of just moving that one up. 

Don't cut away fan leaves until there's bud to replace them.


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## NebulousPLM (Jan 18, 2016)

What problems did you run into with the chicken wire?
I'm worried that my buds may grow into it, somehow. I'm not sure if that's even possible, but that's what it sort of looks like. 

I'm limited on my wattage. We're running 3600w and haven't turned a profit since we started (not due to lack of meds, but due to re-investment) - so we're gonna wait to get the wattage situation figured out most likely lol


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## ttystikk (Jan 18, 2016)

NebulousPLM said:


> What problems did you run into with the chicken wire?
> I'm worried that my buds may grow into it, somehow. I'm not sure if that's even possible, but that's what it sort of looks like.
> 
> I'm limited on my wattage. We're running 3600w and haven't turned a profit since we started (not due to lack of meds, but due to re-investment) - so we're gonna wait to get the wattage situation figured out most likely lol


Wattage is not the place to economize if you're trying to make money growing! 

I deliberately tried to grow my buds through the wire and it was a nightmare. If that's where the light is, that's where they'll grow.


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## m4s73r (Jan 18, 2016)

Imo for the size of the plants you have you should remove that screen and just grow them like half xmas trees, cut the backsides off them and let em grow. Your loosing light with that much wire. Again just my opinion.


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## ttystikk (Jan 19, 2016)

m4s73r said:


> Imo for the size of the plants you have you should remove that screen and just grow them like half xmas trees, cut the backsides off them and let em grow. Your loosing light with that much wire. Again just my opinion.


Also that mesh is tiny. Bigger holes in the screen is MUCH better, not for light reasons but for training the plants.


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## NebulousPLM (Jan 19, 2016)

Alright, so dealing with what I have presently is there anything that you guys suggest doing this run? 

Take the chicken wire off & cut the entire back sides off them!? 

I feel like that's a lot of plant to cut off. It'll recover alright?


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## m4s73r (Jan 19, 2016)

Yes to the wire. 
as for cutting the back off, it depends on where your at in the grow, if your still under veg then yeah they will bounce back. If your in bloom then it will depend how far your in.
first 10 days, then you should be good, also if this is where your at, id raise that light up so that plant grow up some more. then as they end stretch move the light back down into the donut. 
if its after that, then just take the smallest shoots that are growing away from the light and any big fan leaves. then you may want to stake the plant to keep it from falling over


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## JD_85 (Jan 20, 2016)

does any one here defoliate when the sun leafs are acting like " self positioning, bud blockers"?. if it was a horazontal grow i wouldnt even dare bring up this controversy?


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## NebulousPLM (Jan 21, 2016)

JD_85 said:


> does any one here defoliate when the sun leafs are acting like " self positioning, bud blockers"?. if it was a horazontal grow i wouldnt even dare bring up this controversy?


I defoliate, like once a week with my horizontal girls.
Which is why I asked about removing the fan leaves to let other buds get light. 
I'm at about week 3.5 right now, so I'm gonna hold off on removing the backs of the plants, maybe next time.. 

Vert isn't so bad so far. They're keeping up with the 1k pretty well, in terms of bud size.


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## m4s73r (Jan 21, 2016)

JD_85 said:


> does any one here defoliate when the sun leafs are acting like " self positioning, bud blockers"?. if it was a horazontal grow i wouldnt even dare bring up this controversy?


My opinion on this is proly a little misguided, but i think it really comes down to your light intensity. if you have a weaker light that wont penetrate then yes remove fan leaves. With a strong enough light its unneccessary. Now i only back this up on the idea of what i have read from so many debates on this subject. the ones that do and see results seem to have a smaller light then those that claim its a waste of time/bad for plant. 

And then you add in technique. And depending on who you ask there are several way to do it. Be it only in veg and once after stretch in bloom, to veg only, to bloom only, to keeping the plant in a state that it has no fan leaves with more then 1 inch of stem.

Then add in method. some will say yes in hydro or soil, other will say yes to hydro only or soil only. 
Then add strain type. Some strains do well with it, other dont. 

See where this argument can lead.

I always advise this. Do you know your strain? If you have mastered a strain and know how it grows, what makes it happy, and produce, then sure play around with defoliation. See if the strain can handle it. Depending on yoru light intisity, see if its even necessary. With a 600 nice and tight in, it may be a waste of time. 

I can say i defoliate. I do remove a few of the biggest fan leaves from the front of the plant if they're covering a big bud site. I never do more then 5-10 leaves most of the time. I also run my screen behind the plant now so i dont have to shave the back side of it. it just flattens itself out to the screen ive noticed. Used to run screen in front, however i never weaved it in. i just used it to spread out the plant. More of a support.


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## JD_85 (Jan 23, 2016)

so i tooka few off, and gunna take more in a day or two. thanks for the info yall


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## JD_85 (Jan 24, 2016)

Here is a Blue dream in a 4x4 scrog


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## JD_85 (Jan 24, 2016)

I don't defoilat on horizontal grows,well not usually


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## JD_85 (Jan 24, 2016)

And a gdp I just transplanted. Along with a rd cornbread


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## JD_85 (Jan 24, 2016)

Gth 1


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## JD_85 (Feb 15, 2016)

1is g.s.c., 2 is gth#1., 3 is lemon garlic og


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## NebulousPLM (Feb 15, 2016)

A1 my friend. Looking really good. How far along are those ones


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## JD_85 (Feb 15, 2016)

NebulousPLM said:


> A1 my friend. Looking really good. How far along are those ones


i cant rember, i usually keep track but my boiler shxt the bed, so i had to move a ton of stuff so the heater guy could bring the new one in. and i lost all info, i want to say i switched the lights on 1-1-16 but not sure.


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## JD_85 (Feb 15, 2016)

NebulousPLM said:


> A1 my friend. Looking really good. How far along are those ones


how r yours doing? did you flip yet?


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## NebulousPLM (Feb 15, 2016)

JD_85 said:


> how r yours doing? did you flip yet?


They're doing great, I flipped 1/1/16 also. 
I kinda slacked on bumping their PPMs up so I'm gonna give them an extra week at the end to beef up. I can't decide if I want to wait til they're all amber or if I want to pull them when 50/50 cloudy. 

There's a common misconception that if it isn't indica stone cold sleeper weed it isn't a great strain. I donate to a med shop though so I'm hoping they'll be able to tell the difference... 

My setup is so ghetto man but it works for now ahaha. No problems with chicken wire yet btw! These are from the 6th.


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## JD_85 (Feb 17, 2016)

Finally made time to hang the 400 watt


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## Callisto405 (Mar 20, 2016)

GrowUrOwnDank said:


> It's 92.96 million miles guys. Sun to earth.


5 times, the amount of times light can circle the Earth in 1 second


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## JD_85 (Mar 20, 2016)

Callisto405 said:


> 5 times, the amount of times light can circle the Earth in 1 second


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## Aby55 (Apr 10, 2016)

Can you switch to vert in the middle of veg?

I'm really liking what I see in this thread and I think it's about time I go vert. It would be a 400 watt bare bulb vert. 
I can get a cooltube if needed but it will be 2 weeks before I can get it.

Currently running 3 clones that are still very short. It's bagseed from some really good stuff. The nodes are so close to each other. Not sure if that's normal but I know it is for this strain (whatever it may be).

A bit off topic but, I've been using 5 gallon buckets. I'm thinking of dropping down to 3 gallon buckets. 
Would that lead to any root binding issues.
I'm using pro-mix if that matters.


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## pinner420 (Apr 10, 2016)

No cool tubes needed that's the beauty. Just put it where it's comfy to the back of your hand.


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