# HPS vs. LED Grow Lights — Which is Better for Growing Weed?



## MarsHydrofactory (Feb 21, 2022)

Since the mid-20th century, HPS grow lights have been the best available option for commercial indoor gardeners. Thus, it’s no surprise these traditional gas-discharge lights were the first choice for many farmers entering the emerging cannabis cultivation industry.

However, with the advent of LED grow lights, more cultivators are questioning their commitment to HPS bulbs. New LED models “outshine” HPS grow lights in virtually every category, including energy efficiency, ease of maintenance, and lifetime expectancy. As a bonus, LED grow lights give off a full spectrum of light, which translates to a larger, healthier cannabis crop.

No matter the size of your cannabis operation, it’s unlikely LED grow lights won’t help your bottom line.
*HPS vs. LED Grow Lights — A Few “Enlightening” Definitions*









Before revealing the benefits of using full-spectrum LED grow lights, let’s briefly go over what HPS and LED stand for.

*HPS (High Pressure Sodium)*
First off, HPS is short for “high-pressure sodium.” This gas-discharge light is so named because it produced high internal pressures versus its sister “low-pressure sodium” bulbs.

Each of these grow lights has a cylindrical aluminum-based “arc lamp” that contains a mix of chemicals like xenon, mercury, and sodium. When you turn on an HPS lamp, high-intensity voltage pulses between the arc lamp’s electrodes, thus “discharging” gas and producing light. Also, HPS grow lights come equipped with a ballast to help adjust the amount of voltage necessary to light the arc lamp.

*LED (Light Emitting Diode)*
LEDs refer to “light-emitting diodes,” which are tiny semiconductors that convert electrical current into visible light. Unlike gas-discharge HPS, LEDs are “solid-state” products because light is produced between two electrodes in each “solid” diode.

It’s worth mentioning that each LED could have a different “bandgap,” which changes the number of photons admitted through each diode. These differing bandgaps help explain why LED grow lights have multiple light spectrums.

*So, Why Are LEDs So Much Better? Key Differences Between HPS and LED Grow Lights*



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Since HPS lamps have been around longer than LEDs, many still view them as the gold standard for indoor cultivation. However, even HPS proponents have to admit LEDs address many of this older model’s inefficiencies. Let’s run through a few common pros associated with using an LED grow light for cannabis.

*Full-Spectrum LEDs Offer A Wider Array Of Wavelengths*
In terms of light spectrums, HPS can’t hold a candle to LED grow lights. When you use HPS lamps, you’re only exposing your plants to monochromatic warm yellow patterns that have a correlated color temperature of 2200K. LEDs, however, offer a broad array of colors ranging from 2200K to 6000K.

While manufacturers could produce LEDs with specific light frequencies (e.g. “blurple” or UV), full spectrum LEDs offer the wide assortment of colors. To date, full spectrum LEDs like Mars Hydro are dedicated to growing cannabis, which accounts for their higher yields versus HPS.

*Enjoy Longer Service Life With LED Grow Lights*
As mentioned, HPS grow lights come equipped with a ballast to help adjust the amount of voltage necessary to light the arc lamp. As time goes on, HPS lamps require more voltage to produce the same amount of light, until it eventually wears out after about 24,000 hours. Moreover, HPS grow lamps tend to flicker at the end of their lifecycle.

By contrast, LED diodes won’t dampen as quickly as an HPS grow light. This is because LEDs require no high concentrations of gas, which inevitably “burns out” rather quickly. And they produce much less heat to ensure the core chips to take longer to fizzle out. Most LED grow lights last between 50,000 to 100,000 hours.

*LEDs Will Keep Your Grow Space Cool*
Another issue with using HPS grow lights is they give off a ton of heat. Indeed, HPS lamps produce so much heat that growers need to invest more money into cooling technologies and extra water. The excess heat from these lamps could also be a safety hazard, especially when you have to change out these bulbs or ballasts.

With LED grow lights, you won’t have to worry about managing excess ambient heat in your grow space. In fact, most LEDs only give off about 25 percent radiant heat versus 50 percent for HPS lights. You can rest assured that most of the energy going into your LEDs turns into light, not heat.

*Concentrate Your Photons With Superior LED Directionality*
Not only do HPS lamps have weaker light output due to their heat expenditure, the light they produce won’t be as concentrated as LED grow lights. Due to the HPS lamp’s inefficient design, light waves scatter 360° throughout your grow space.

By comparison, LED lamps focus light at 180°, making it easier for plants to absorb all of those photons for photosynthesis. When you order LEDs with in-built reflectors like those in Mars Hydro’s catalog, you can intensify this light further.

Thus, your yields will be much higher and more uniform under LEDs than HPS.
*Are LEDs Worth The Higher Initial Cost?*
Despite all the pros listed above, some growers are hesitant to switch to LEDs because of their higher upfront price. While it’s true many LEDs cost more than HPS lights upfront, they always reward a planter’s pocketbook in the long term.

Remember: LEDs require less energy to put out the same amount of wattage as HPS grow lights,for example, a 700w LED can emit same PAR as a 1000w HPS, thus can save more electric bills. Also, since LEDs don’t give off as much heat as HPS lights, you won’t have to worry about expenses like AC units, ventilation, or extra irrigation. As a bonus, since LEDs offer direct, full-spectrum light penetration, you will reap higher profits from your higher yields. What’s more, some high-quality LED grow lights passed DLC certification. In countries, government subsidies are awarded for using DLC-certified grow lights.

But it’s not just cost that has got people interested in LED grow lights. If you’ve ever used HPS grow lights in the past, you know what a pain it could be to change bulbs and ballasts safely. Installing lightweight LED panels is as simple as hanging them up and plugging them in. Plus, since LEDs have a longer lifespan versus HPS grow lights, you won’t have to worry about changing them all that often.
*Want To Switch To LED Grow Lights? Remember The Following Tips*
If you’re seriously considering switching to LEDs, please remember to re-adjust your irrigation and heating schedules. Since LED grow lights don’t give off as much heat, your plants will need less water and more nutrient-dense fertilizer to thrive. More Ca & Mg are welcomed.

Also, you should carefully monitor the temperature in your grow room since LEDs won’t give off the same degree of heat as HPS bulbs. As long as you keep these considerations in mind, you should make a smooth transition to lighting your cannabis with LEDs.

Therefore, replacing HPS with LEDs is an option to save money while reaping more. Hope you would enjoy your growth and the rewards from your yields with LED grow lights.






Thanks for watching.

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PS: other threads:
*What Are The Best Temperature & Humidity Levels For Growing Marijuana?* 
*HPS To LED Conversions: Things To Keep In Mind For The Retrofit*


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## Blue brother (Feb 27, 2022)

I’ve ran both alone and both together.

I chose to add the hps back in to add more radiant heat to the canopy, this warms the leaf up to a more desirable point than I got with just leds alone. Led spectrum is king (2nd to only cmh in my opinion), and they’re efficient too. But that’s not the be all and end all imo.


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## Drasik (Feb 27, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> View attachment 5093015
> 
> I’ve ran both alone and both together.
> 
> I chose to add the hps back in to add more radiant heat to the canopy, this warms the leaf up to a more desirable point than I got with just leds alone. Led spectrum is king (2nd to only cmh in my opinion), and they’re efficient too. But that’s not the be all and end all imo.


We've found barred LEDs with enough power add enough coverage and heat to maintain enough heat downwards towards the leaves to keep them warm enough for appropriate transpiration. No need to bring back the HPS. Tunable spectrums are also highly desirable to customize your own spectrums based on the genetics you are growing.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 27, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> View attachment 5093015
> 
> I’ve ran both alone and both together.
> 
> I chose to add the hps back in to add more radiant heat to the canopy, this warms the leaf up to a more desirable point than I got with just leds alone. Led spectrum is king (2nd to only cmh in my opinion), and they’re efficient too. But that’s not the be all and end all imo.





Drasik said:


> We've found barred LEDs with enough power add enough coverage and heat to maintain enough heat downwards towards the leaves to keep them warm enough for appropriate transpiration. No need to bring back the HPS. Tunable spectrums are also highly desirable to customize your own spectrums based on the genetics you are growing.


I run bar type LEDs most of the year, but in the couple/few cold months, I change over to a combination of ceramic metal halide and LED. I figure it's better than adding a heater to get temps up, because I get the extra byproduct of light, in addition to the IR and ballast heat.


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## Coldnasty (Feb 27, 2022)

MarsHydrofactory said:


> Since the mid-20th century, HPS grow lights have been the best available option for commercial indoor gardeners. Thus, it’s no surprise these traditional gas-discharge lights were the first choice for many farmers entering the emerging cannabis cultivation industry.
> 
> However, with the advent of LED grow lights, more cultivators are questioning their commitment to HPS bulbs. New LED models “outshine” HPS grow lights in virtually every category, including energy efficiency, ease of maintenance, and lifetime expectancy. As a bonus, LED grow lights give off a full spectrum of light, which translates to a larger, healthier cannabis crop.
> 
> ...


HPS. Fight me


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 27, 2022)

Coldnasty said:


> HPS. Fight me


No thanks, you have more watts.


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## Coldnasty (Feb 27, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> No thanks, you have more watts.


Lmao Actually I think they both have their place but in my situation the hps kicks works best and led needs a lot more setup.


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## Gregshed (Feb 27, 2022)

'monochromatic warm yellow patterns that have a correlated color temperature of 2200K'

??????


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## Drasik (Feb 27, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> I run bar type LEDs most of the year, but in the couple/few cold months, I change over to a combination of ceramic metal halide and LED. I figure it's better than adding a heater to get temps up, because I get the extra byproduct of light, in addition to the IR and ballast heat.


Does it not have enough power to get heat down on the plants during the winter months? We had that problem at first in our prototypes then we switched to more efficient diodes and upped the power so we no longer had that VPD issues any more.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 27, 2022)

Gregshed said:


> 'monochromatic warm yellow patterns that have a correlated color temperature of 2200K'
> 
> ??????


Mostly yellow light.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 27, 2022)

Drasik said:


> Does it not have enough power to get heat down on the plants during the winter months? We had that problem at first in our prototypes then we switched to more efficient diodes and upped the power so we no longer had that VPD issues any more.


LEDs don't throw radiant heat the way HID does, so even if the ambient temps stay the same, I raise my leaf temp in the cold month with the CMH to help compensate. I use LM301H diodes with my bar type lamps, and high power 5050 type diodes when I run LED and CMH together, so those diodes also throw heat better, although they are also less efficient diodes compared to the 3030 type lm301's.


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## Gregshed (Feb 27, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Mostly yellow light.


Monochromatic, sounds a little over the top.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 27, 2022)

Gregshed said:


> Monochromatic, sounds a little over the top.


It's just fancy jargon. Mono = one. Chromatic = color. People like to talk fancy sometimes to try to look smart.


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## lusidghost (Feb 27, 2022)

Drasik said:


> We've found barred LEDs with enough power add enough coverage and heat to maintain enough heat downwards towards the leaves to keep them warm enough for appropriate transpiration.


I have a fan placed horizontally on the ceiling of my tent that pushes the lights' heat downward.


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## lusidghost (Feb 27, 2022)

Gregshed said:


> Monochromatic, sounds a little over the top.


Someone didn't pay attention in art class.


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## Gregshed (Feb 27, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> It's just fancy jargon. Mono = one. Chromatic = color. People like to talk fancy sometimes to try to look smart.


It's not monochromatic thought.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 27, 2022)

lusidghost said:


> I have a fan placed horizontally on the ceiling of my tent that pushes the lights' heat downward.


Pulling your exhaust out the bottom, instead of the top, will also help to move that heat through the canopy.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 27, 2022)

Gregshed said:


> It's not monochromatic thought.


Semantics.


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## Gregshed (Feb 27, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Semantics.


But then it emits ir and blue, green and others. It's nowhere near monochromatic but if you mean LED semantics then ok.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 27, 2022)

Gregshed said:


> But then it emits ir and blue, green and others. It's nowhere near monochromatic but if you mean LED semantics then ok.


Your argument is with the OP, not me. They mean mostly yellow, which as you've pointed out is debatable. I'm not going to argue semantics with you on behalf of the OP. HPS is pretty yellow though.


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## Drasik (Feb 27, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> LEDs don't throw radiant heat the way HID does, so even if the ambient temps stay the same, I raise my leaf temp in the cold month with the CMH to help compensate. I use LM301H diodes with my bar type lamps, and high power 5050 type diodes when I run LED and CMH together, so those diodes also throw heat better, although they are also less efficient diodes compared to the 3030 type lm301's.


what barred lights are you using? We've found ways to get a little bit more radiant heat downwards with our LEDS, been keeping the leaf temps fairly decent during the winter months, we've even had some cold spells of late at some of our shops and have not had any issues. we use 301s


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 27, 2022)

Drasik said:


> what barred lights are you using? We've found ways to get a little bit more radiant heat downwards with our LEDS, been keeping the leaf temps fairly decent during the winter months, we've even had some cold spells of late at some of our shops and have not had any issues. we use 301s


Mars Hydro. What are your ambient temps without using a heater?


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## Gregshed (Feb 27, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Your argument is with the OP, not me. They mean mostly yellow, which as you've pointed out is debatable. I'm not going to argue semantics with you on behalf of the OP. HPS is pretty yellow though.


Sorry not an argument, most of what he said seems debatable, I wouldn't think changing a bulb a hassle etc.

I own one of their lights they work great, someone likes sodiums well they work too I'm happy just a little taken back they thought to use monochromatic in their take down of HPS.


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## Drasik (Feb 27, 2022)

lusidghost said:


> I have a fan placed horizontally on the ceiling of my tent that pushes the lights' heat downward.


Heat movement is also a good technique.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 27, 2022)

Gregshed said:


> Sorry not an argument, most of what he said seems debatable, I wouldn't think changing a bulb a hassle etc.
> 
> I own one of their lights they work great, someone likes sodiums well they work too I'm happy just a little taken back they thought to use monochromatic in their take down of HPS.


I don't disagree, but at the end of the day this thread is an advertisement, right? I really think they are just trying to talk fancy. To me it's less offensive than saying that a 100watt LED equals the light of a 1k HPS.


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## Drasik (Feb 27, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Mars Hydro. What are your ambient temps without using a heater?


Depends, we're up in Canada so it gets cold but temp average between 22 C with fans heats can increase in the room(our rooms also use good insulation). The Mars hydro also have slimmer bars than ours. they only have 3 diodes across where we have 8 across, 452 diodes per bar.


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## Drasik (Feb 27, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Your argument is with the OP, not me. They mean mostly yellow, which as you've pointed out is debatable. I'm not going to argue semantics with you on behalf of the OP. HPS is pretty yellow though.


Very Yellow, with an orange tinge


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## lusidghost (Feb 27, 2022)

Drasik said:


> Very Yellow, with an orange tinge


I miss that color. It has a 80s Miami vibe. It made me feel like a character on Vice City.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 27, 2022)

Drasik said:


> Depends, we're up in Canada so it gets cold but temp average between 22 C with fans heats can increase in the room(our rooms also use good insulation). The Mars hydro also have slimmer bars than ours. they only have 3 diodes across where we have 8 across, 452 diodes per bar.


No matter what bar layout you have it isn't going to change the physics of the spectrum output, and factually LEDs have a steep dropoff past 700nm, compared to a huge IR boost around 830nm in HID, which is going to heat up the leaf temp very effectively despite my low ambient temps (which unfortunately do drop below yours in the cold months). I also have quantum board fixtures where the diodes are all close together, and I don't find that even those throw anywhere near the amount of IR heat which HID does. 


lusidghost said:


> I miss that color. It has a 80s Miami vibe. It made me feel like a character on Vice City.


Like a late autumn sunset.


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## Samwell Seed Well (Feb 27, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Mars Hydro. What are your ambient temps without using a heater?


Mine are around 70-76 directly under a 4x8 rack...ive def posted photos of the racks in veg...300 watt mars bar with a common temp reader.


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## Blue brother (Feb 28, 2022)

For me with my Diablos I still struggled with vpd, I moved my intake to the top of the room and dropped the exhaust to just below canopy height, all this really done was stir the air better and make air temps more stable.

I know there is ir coming from my boards cos I can feel it with my hand, however even with their radiant heat from big boards and the convection heat being pulled down towards the canopy, I still wasn’t happy with the vpd, leaf temperature was down, meaning I’d have to drop humidity significantly to maintain vpd OR add a couple fan heaters to blow hot air over the leaves.
My best results while following the vpd chart happen when the air temperature and leaf temperature are within 1c, due to the air temperature and not the leaf temperature being responsible for controlling the rh around the leaves.

I’m not saying I wouldn’t prefer to get the same performance from led as I get from a mix of the 2 but to do this would take a whole lot of tuning time and extra money. I do like the supplemental ir and uv bars from maxibright.

@Drasik what leds do you build? Do you have a site I can browse?

if you’re a beginner I would reccomend starting with led as it does iron out a lot of the beginners mistakes and make life much easier when maintaining environment, plants are also much easier to diagnose under white light.

I didn’t mean to come across as someone slating leds, their benefits are easy to see, the spectrum is amazing and the lack of heat produced from them due to their lower wattage is a godsend in the warmer months. And I’ll ditch the hps once I find a decent source of ir that doesn’t break the bank and can work out their ratios and positioning and wattage to a point where I can keep air temp and leaf temp quite close together.

I also must say though that cmh @ 3200k ish is where I’ve found the perfect spectrum and balance between air temp and leaf temp, I would go as far as to say that plants grown under warmish cmh grow faster, have tighter nodes, yield more and produce a higherquality flower compared to my hlg diablo 350r (new added blue spectrum).


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## Drasik (Feb 28, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> No matter what bar layout you have it isn't going to change the physics of the spectrum output, and factually LEDs have a steep dropoff past 700nm, compared to a huge IR boost around 830nm in HID, which is going to heat up the leaf temp very effectively despite my low ambient temps (which unfortunately do drop below yours in the cold months). I also have quantum board fixtures where the diodes are all close together, and I don't find that even those throw anywhere near the amount of IR heat which HID does.
> 
> Like a late autumn sunset.
> 
> If your looking for a lot of heat sure, your not gonna get the same amount of heat from lights in the visible spectrum then you would from IR but you do get some especially if you have power to support it. Seems like you have a space issue with maintaining heat from the LEDs. Some of our rooms are appropriately insulated at 200-300 sq ft and we ensure we have fans to mix heat around. We do have to add a heater when it gets really cold outside especially if it drops below -10 to -15 C. This is especially true for the room that shares a wall with the outside.


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## Apalchen (Feb 28, 2022)

I have a room of each. I have gavita double ended in one room and switched the other room to the new gavita 1930e. I’m going into my 3rd run with LED. I won’t be switching out my other room. And will give one more run to the leds before pulling half them down and checkerboarding the hps back in. My rooms are sealed and well insulated so I can set temp and humidity wherever I want. 

In Michigan the market is crazy bad atm, every little advantage in quality means your packs move when others are sitting. So far I pull better quality from the de hps and the weight isn’t any better under the led. Some strains come out as well or better under the led but not all of em I keep a large variety.


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## Gregshed (Feb 28, 2022)

I think because it involves money LED salesmen will slander anything but LED and their own lights just to make a buck.

I didn't think HPS that bad or low powered but I don't think LED salesmen need worry since most buy LED these days.

Monochromatic, actually the opposite but please buy Mars Hydro since this guy obviously has three wives, six kids and a mortgage to fund and also I own one.


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## Drasik (Feb 28, 2022)

Gregshed said:


> I think because it involves money LED salesmen will slander anything but LED and their own lights just to make a buck.
> 
> I didn't think HPS that bad or low powered but I don't think LED salesmen need worry since most buy LED these days.
> 
> Monochromatic, actually the opposite but please buy Mars Hydro since this guy obviously has three wives, six kids and a mortgage to fund and also I own one.


Its definitely a cut throat market out there and we're in it now. As a cannabis company first our goal is to make sure the grower in educated in using the LED lights(especially if they are switching) and that we're not BS ppl with our specs and what our light can do.


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## Drasik (Feb 28, 2022)

Apalchen said:


> I have a room of each. I have gavita double ended in one room and switched the other room to the new gavita 1930e. I’m going into my 3rd run with LED. I won’t be switching out my other room. And will give one more run to the leds before pulling half them down and checkerboarding the hps back in. My rooms are sealed and well insulated so I can set temp and humidity wherever I want.
> 
> In Michigan the market is crazy bad atm, every little advantage in quality means your packs move when others are sitting. So far I pull better quality from the de hps and the weight isn’t any better under the led. Some strains come out as well or better under the led but not all of em I keep a large variety.


We've found a new sweet spot with our LEDs, the spectrum control and in sweet soil beds. We've seen actually seen better yields in a few of our genetics which could be attributed to the fact that most of our owns strains were bred and grown outdoor first so they saw that spectral variation from their inception. In the beds with the LEDs we've seen 2-3% increase in overall overall cannabinoid percentages and and overall increase of 1-1.5% in terps. what LEDs are you using?


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## Apalchen (Feb 28, 2022)

Drasik said:


> We've found a new sweet spot with our LEDs, the spectrum control and in sweet soil beds. We've seen actually seen better yields in a few of our genetics which could be attributed to the fact that most of our owns strains were bred and grown outdoor first so they saw that spectral variation from their inception. In the beds with the LEDs we've seen 2-3% increase in overall overall cannabinoid percentages and and overall increase of 1-1.5% in terps. what LEDs are you using?


The gavita 1930e. What were you running before the leds that you saw an increase from? I’ve had a few strains perform better but the majority are not.


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## Drasik (Feb 28, 2022)

gavita 1000e


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 28, 2022)

Drasik said:


> If your looking for a lot of heat sure, your not gonna get the same amount of heat from lights in the visible spectrum then you would from IR but you do get some especially if you have power to support it. Seems like you have a space issue with maintaining heat from the LEDs. Some of our rooms are appropriately insulated at 200-300 sq ft and we ensure we have fans to mix heat around. We do have to add a heater when it gets really cold outside especially if it drops below -10 to -15 C. This is especially true for the room that shares a wall with the outside.


Like I said, I'd rather add a HID lamp in the mix than a heater. I get the heat from the wattage being used, plus the radiant heat from the IR, and the nice byproduct of extra light. I'm not sure why you're trying to poke holes in my system which is proven to work very well for me in the couple of cold months of the year I have to contend with. 

I'm a bit confused by your suggestion to "add more power". Are you adding more overall wattage, including more diodes, or are you keeping the diode count the same and pumping more amps through the diodes? Either way your addition of "power" is also going to increase the ambient temps. 

To be honest, I see the best quality from a mix of cmh and led, but I don't do it all year because I will have high heat issues most of the time with that setup. My space is very passive in terms of temp control, so I choose to adjust seasonally, rather than implement power consuming temperature control. I have no AC and no heaters. I just adjust to the seasons, and adding CMH to LED in the cold months works perfectly. I've been growing the wedding cake cut for close to two years now, so I have seen how it does under different conditions. It's pretty nice under straight LED, but right now I have it under the mix of CMH and LED, and I'm reminded how much better it comes out in this setup when I check on my plants each day lately, now that I'm past 8-weeks flowering..


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## xtsho (Feb 28, 2022)

I'm very satisfied with the results I get from my 600 watt Vivosun HID. You can't get that kind of performance with a $150 LED. I don't give a damn about energy consumption. If I were to run LED's in flower I'd end up using more electricity to run a heater than I'd save switching to LED's. 

I do have a 100 watt LED in the veg tent in my office now but the plants don't grow any better under the LED than they did under the T5. The T5 covered the entire width of the tent and the top doubled as a heat mat. I'm thinking of putting it back in.


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## Drasik (Feb 28, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Like I said, I'd rather add a HID lamp in the mix than a heater. I get the heat from the wattage being used, plus the radiant heat from the IR, and the nice byproduct of extra light. I'm not sure why you're trying to poke holes in my system which is proven to work very well for me in the couple of cold months of the year I have to contend with.
> 
> I'm a bit confused by your suggestion to "add more power". Are you adding more overall wattage, including more diodes, or are you keeping the diode count the same and pumping more amps through the diodes? Either way your addition of "power" is also going to increase the ambient temps.
> 
> To be honest, I see the best quality from a mix of cmh and led, but I don't do it all year because I will have high heat issues most of the time with that setup. My space is very passive in terms of temp control, so I choose to adjust seasonally, rather than implement power consuming temperature control. I have no AC and no heaters. I just adjust to the seasons, and adding CMH to LED in the cold months works perfectly. I've been growing the wedding cake cut for close to two years now, so I have seen how it does under different conditions. It's pretty nice under straight LED, but right now I have it under the mix of CMH and LED, and I'm reminded how much better it comes out in this setup when I check on my plants each day lately, now that I'm past 8-weeks flowering..


Hey, not trying to poke holes into anything  if you're using the HID as both a light source and heat along side your LEDS that's kewl, whatever it takes to make it work! I was just noting that your room might be more effective in the winter with adequate insulation, I only say this from experience. We had a room that had one wall that was on the other side of an exterior wall and we were using LEDS in the room, so the room was colder than it needed to be in the winter. After boosting the insulating in the walls the cold issues were gone and we don't have to add heat unless it gets super super cold. We are using 4 lights in that room (10 x10) and it was effective for both the older and current lights.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 28, 2022)

Drasik said:


> Hey, not trying to poke holes into anything  if you're using the HID as both a light source and heat along side your LEDS that's kewl, whatever it takes to make it work! I was just noting that your room might be more effective in the winter with adequate insulation, I only say this from experience. We had a room that had one wall that was on the other side of an exterior wall and we were using LEDS in the room, so the room was colder than it needed to be in the winter. After boosting the insulating in the walls the cold issues were gone and we don't have to add heat unless it gets super super cold. We are using 4 lights in that room (10 x10) and it was effective for both the older and current lights.


The issue isn't insulation so much as it is timing and air control. I grow in tents which are inside of a larger standalone lung room. The lung room itself it decently insulated, but my light cycle is on from midnight to noon (for flowering), because that's when power is cheapest. It's also when the outdoor environment is coolest. My tents and lung room aren't sealed, so I don't run any co2, and as such I need to being in fresh air intermittently. I have an intake fan (solar powered) which runs continually all day, bringing fresh air in from outside, then at night it is mostly off, but does have intervals that it turns on for 15-minute periods at a time throughout the midnight to noon (lights on) cycle. If I were to run co2 and seal my room off, it would be less of a hassle to deal with the cold temps in the winter, and would also allow me to run higher temps in the summer, but my lung room is also used for other purposes, so sealing it off isn't realistic. I know my situation could be better and isn't ideal, but I also have to deal with the limitations set forth as best I can. Running a cmh lamp next to led's a couple of cold months of the year is a simple solution to my situation, and frankly it works fantastically.


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## Cannabisco (May 7, 2022)

I've been known to break out the hps & cmh for nostalgia & heat in chilly months.. it serves its purpose.
But the majority of my area is usually dedicated to qb's & angled cobs around the perimeter to help penetration. Can't say I miss HID or the power bill at all.
LED is just a better choice for me & spectrum tailored light with less heat. I also think I get better colors & flavors that way. I also use led for supplemental FR, but for UV I use T5 over led.


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## bajafox (May 24, 2022)

Just pulled my 150w HPS to supplement my LED 2 weeks ago. Yes I know these plants are ugly but Im just dialing in my tent for a winter grow. Thinking I might go 600w HPS or 400w LED + dual 150w HPS

I have a 330w CMH setup but I thought the LED from HLG would be better


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## Cannabisco (May 24, 2022)

Here is my spring/summer light configuration. 12 Cob leds (Cree & Citizen) , 1- 250w QB (Samsung LM301H), various epistar & osram red & blue booster diodes, a Growstar 150w deep red (660-680nm) ufo, & the growmau RapidLed 730nm far red Puck. UVA supplemented by 48" AgroMax UVA+ . For UVB I have a T5HO 48" AgroMax Pure UVB (not shown) & California lightworks 24" UVB.. which has same spectrum 75% uvb & 25% uva. For the UV aspect I can't put my trust in led , the flouros just do it better. CMH has a nice spectrum as well.

But in the fall and winter I use cmh & hps.

Yeah they aren't the most expensive name brand lights I know, but they do put out enough serious photons & penetrate the canopy. I personally light all the different spectrums. Was honestly debating adding some aquarium reef tank cobs in the blue, cyan & violet spectrums to help anthrocyanin levels in the ripening phase.


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## snakedope (May 31, 2022)

So, ive grown with both of them, and also see in other people threads (the LED ones) that weight increased due to more diodes giving light at more places but the bud itself and quality for me was shit and to be honest also in most of the LED journals i look it looks shit too, when i say shit i mean when comparing to HPS or MH, each LED grow i smoke and see is shit quality, i mean what can you expect from a diode that only make 250 Lm ?? 

according to the book of old LED myths and legends chapter 2, an array of many leds (like the 600W+ panels) give you a total lets say 100,000 Lm right ? wrong ! you just added 300+ 250 Lm diodes together lol, its quite embarrassing that people forget simple math and logic when it comes to spending money on bogus claims, i saw on another thread here a LED panel that claims 5000 umol for 5000 $$ hahahaha i wonder if i put 10K i will get 10K umol  people are so gullible these days and that goes for all led panels, ive pretty much tried them all from the lowest wattage ones to a "beast" 800w panels
And will never use them again, the only thing they do good is covering more space, but with what ? a low intensity small diode lol
i rather put 4 250W HPS on a 4 X 4 or even a 5 X 5 and get better results all day long, the only problem is heat, but i will take the 5-10% lose of light and power due to the glass in the airhood and some lower working temp for the bulb.
weight means nothing if most of it is leafy shit and not potent medicine, i dont care how long your trees are, its the med that counts, LED dont grow Meds like HPS, i dont know how people dont see it ?? look at LED flower and look at CMH or HPS flower, am i the only one who see the difference ?

They are all liars, in the bible it says that money will blind the just and the wise men, no exception in our times
First we started with 40-50 inch height recommendations, now the most expansive LEDs tell us to put them 5-6 inch from canopy ? so anyone with eyes in his head and some brain should know they are low intensity lights, next they will tell us to make the plants hug them for better penetration 
Next they told us that they make 3000umol and 5000umol and it wont end there oh no the show must go on,
a 600 HPS will give you 2000 umol at 10 inch from canopy give or take, and under the hood itself not in the sides, that why HPS lacks the better light spreading of LED, but it makes up for it in creating and growing crazy potent ass MEDS

All in all i will never try LED again, such a waste of time
when they will show me a 250 or 400w diode that push more Lm then HPS maybe we meet again 
but then they are back to the start as HPS does that today without waiting haha


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## Star Dog (May 31, 2022)

snakedope said:


> So, ive grown with both of them, and also see in other people threads (the LED ones) that weight increased due to more diodes giving light at more places but the bud itself and quality for me was shit and to be honest also in most of the LED journals i look it looks shit too, when i say shit i mean when comparing to HPS or MH, each LED grow i smoke and see is shit quality, i mean what can you expect from a diode that only make 250 Lm ??
> 
> according to the book of old LED myths and legends chapter 2, an array of many leds (like the 600W+ panels) give you a total lets say 100,000 Lm right ? wrong ! you just added 300+ 250 Lm diodes together lol, its quite embarrassing that people forget simple math and logic when it comes to spending money on bogus claims, i saw on another thread here a LED panel that claims 5000 umol for 5000 $$ hahahaha i wonder if i put 10K i will get 10K umol  people are so gullible these days and that goes for all led panels, ive pretty much tried them all from the lowest wattage ones to a "beast" 800w panels
> And will never use them again, the only thing they do good is covering more space, but with what ? a low intensity small diode lol
> ...


Do you have any pics of your led/hps buds?


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## snakedope (May 31, 2022)

And for all of those that gonna tell me Lm is not a factor in growing plants you need to get ur science straight, because even science is realizing that Lm (or otherwise known as the intensity factor of a light source) is more importent then what most think and label, just what the human eye can see... No ! if that was the case then no plant would have given its peak growing and flowring to HPS or MH or any other light source which is not "full spectrum LED"
Reality prove otherwise anyway, no need to debate this

I never take pictures of my grows i live in a country that its strictly forbidden, im not here to convince anyone, just laid down the numbers and the science, you can take it anyway you like, it wont change the numbers and the logic that stand behind them.

Its funny that when you take a panel of 600W leds and put it on a 4 x 4 its ok and its fine to spread 300 diodes with 250 Lm each 
but if i put 4 150W HPS ? 
the only thing LED has solved is heat, and only by a margin, because it is now known that you need equal watts to HID in LED and ill even go further 
then that and say that you probably need a hell of a lot more then equal watts of LED to match HID, and thats just math and logic, not theory.


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## snakedope (May 31, 2022)

BTW i will take a LED panel for Veg anyday !
cuz i can spread whichever wattage on about any given surface, and at 70 days veg (which is my time frame between the flower tent and veg tent) i dont need much intensity in order to grow them big with lets say 400w led over a 5x5 veg i can do very good before moving them to the flower tent


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## Star Dog (May 31, 2022)

Lmao you don't take pictures, aye ok


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## DoubleAtotheRON (May 31, 2022)

I think alot of it too is your grow environment. If I lived way up North, I might consider HPS if I needed the heat.. But here in OK, we have plenty of heat. ... and plenty of cold. We can have 4 seasons in a week. But. I chose LED for the efficient operation, long life, and low to no maintenance. Like right now we're in the 90's during the day. My AC unit is set at 81 degrees. This may be because I have 16 inches of spray foam in my ceilings, and 8 inches in the walls. It takes forever for the temps to change in that room if you just shut everything down. .. like a couple of weeks with nothing running (when we take a short break). I think I've found the magic number of plants to run in a 20x30. Lights are on full blast, and AC at 81. Room stays at 81 degrees/63 RH during lights on, and I have no dehuyes running. They are making their own humidity at the right rate for the given space. This is saving me a ton on dehumidification. With a larger plant count, and a few weeks into flower, my dehuyes were burning 19 amps 24/7 trying to keep the RH in check. They only kick in at lights out now, and I may have a 5 point swing till lights come back on. Same with temps, I have about a 5 degree swing day/night. So... I think i just depends on your particular environment, and how efficient your room is, but.. LED is king in my book.


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## Cannabisco (May 31, 2022)

All good points to take into consideration. Personally I find LED to be more effective & efficient cost wise. I currently use Led and waited till the blurble stage passed & gave birth to the COB's & Quantum Boards. The Led tech of the past was indeed inefficient compared to HPS. Now that we have the new LED tech there is no comparison besides the SUN & with IR & UV supplementation we are slowly filling in those gaps. I use Cobs & Qb's for the majority year round and T5s for UV supplementation. I have gotten my personal best bud density & yield & potency wise thanks to LED. COB'S definitely are great at light penetration & you have to be careful because they can definitely burn & bleach plants if too close. Leds can cover every spectrum to mimic the sun without the heat of HID's and is far more cost effective in my opinion. But LEC (cmh) is still great lighting & I use it in the winter & the ladies love it. It truly is superior to HPS & since last year retired my HPS, and am not looking back or missing HPS in any way. Also that is my guess as to why most indoor growers & commercial indoor growers have done the same as well. LED is just more cost effective without any sacrifices. Who wouldn't want to provide every spectrum to their plants, I've noticed an increase in color, terps & flavor as well. What really impressed me was density & I'm certain it was because I'm running cooler temps than with HID, before they were ok but mostly kinda airy buds. Now those same strains are rock hard thanks to led. Sure HPS & DE HPS can still grow some killer bud no doubt, but it's outdated tech. The only HID worth comparing in my opinion is LEC CMH. I prefer my COBS & Quantum Board unless it's winter then I will supplement my Led with cmh, the rest of the season it's all LED.. except for uvb. I see Led can do uva now but cost wise I went with florescent T5 for now for UVA & UVB until the tech gets better & more cost effective. This is my own personal findings that I have experienced & I'm sure there are people using HID lighting and still produce killer bud & really have their system & grows dialed in & I give them my respect.
I also save a handful of plants and when mother nature is ready I move them outside simply because the sun is still #1 in my book. As for the other outdoor variables I'm not a fan of but thats a topic for another discussion. Honestly I'm impressed at how far the light tech has come over the past 25 years & I'm excited to see what the future holds.

*edit* my hps is 600 watt, because I read the 600 watt was the most efficient along with 1000 & DE HPS. I could barely survive Temps from the 600 watt so 1000 was out of the question. I've never tried the lower wattage 150 & 250, so I have no XP with those variants. I first started with florescent & cfl's, moved to HID hps , then to cmh & finally Led, COB's & Quantum Boards.


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## SSHZ (May 31, 2022)

I was a 30+ year grower using hps……… switched a few years ago to Gavita LED’s and I’m yielding about 40% more overall. This is 12 plants in a 4 x 4 sq ft area under 1 Gavita. The light spread is remarkable……..day 22 in flowering.


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## Mason Jar 92705 (Jun 1, 2022)

Why not the Gavita double end hid’s? 40% increase with leds? That’s a bold claim.


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

All LEDs claims are bold, thats why it has to be taken with caution,
40% increase ? i can believe it, like i said LED has much more coverage then HPS, thats a fact, but again, with what ? small intensity diodes
Same quality ? i will never believe that, and the grow journals pics of people growing with LED show it again and again, Also i dont need other people pics, im growing under a 800w panel right now above a 4 X 4, and i can say with confidence i will never flower under it again
Veg is another story, and can be very good with LED

They claim to have umol numbers in 300 diodes combined that are greater then 1 light source that puts over 150000 Lm lol ?
Led is not logical, you add up the Lm of 300 diodes, get 100K total, not everywhere but total ! you put them 15-20 inch above canopy and tell me that 250 Lm diode is enough to have same penetration and intensity as a 150K Lm diode (HPS) at same height ??? sorry you have to be crazy to believe that
Do led manufactures think everyone is an idiot ?
They are playing every trick in the book in order to show that this lame ass tech which is nothing but bad for your eyes and dna and cells is the future and is better then HPS which mimic the magnetic properties of the sun (magnetic arc that lights noble gases)
Those tricks include making claims about even spread of ppfd is better then lower ppfd (at larger coverage) from greater intensity ?? 
Sorry im not sold on those ideas, also most def not sold about documents that surface from NASA (Never A Straight Answer) testing them so dont even mention the fake scuba divers that call themselves astro - not ! their claims is bogus and not to be taken seriously.


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

Its funny how LED users get all hyped up when someone does the ACTUAL math behind these lights, 
If i were to take 50 CFL 20W bulbs and put them on a panel and raise that to 20 inch above canopy everyone here would have said its too far and not enough and bla bla bla even though a 15-20w bulb has X3 or X4 the Lm of a single LED diode, but when it comes to your 2w 3w diode then its ok ? 
BOGUS CLAIMS !


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## Mason Jar 92705 (Jun 1, 2022)

I’ll admit it, I use the old technology and when I change, it’ll be the double end hid’s. Just to make it clear, I wasn’t calling anyone a liar with the 40% yield increase. I see many led grows and I’m not blown away.


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## Horselover fat (Jun 1, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Its funny how LED users get all hyped up when someone does the ACTUAL math behind these lights,
> If i were to take 50 CFL 20W bulbs and put them on a panel and raise that to 20 inch above canopy everyone here would have said its too far and not enough and bla bla bla even though a 15-20w bulb has X3 or X4 the Lm of a single LED diode, but when it comes to your 2w 3w diode then its ok ?
> BOGUS CLAIMS !


You seem to know very little about light and even less about lighting technology.


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

I NEVER CLAIMED TO KNOW ANYTHING !
Just giving you the numbers, you choose to add them up to get a "100K Lm Monster" lol
Its your perspective, mine is just you took a lot of low intensity lights and put them together thats all 
Who is right ? Who is wrong ? How can we know ? well i look at my own grow, i only know what i see in it, i dont have to prove anyone besides my MJ that i know, and so far it seems they are accepting my logic, hmm sorry their logic, EDIT: Natures Logic ! (1 sun, high intensity, not 300 suns, low intensity)


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## Horselover fat (Jun 1, 2022)

snakedope said:


> I NEVER CLAIMED TO KNOW ANYTHING !
> Just giving you the numbers, you choose to add them up to get a "100K Lm Monster" lol
> Its your perspective, mine is just you took a lot of low intensity lights and put them together thats all
> *Who is right ? Who is wrong* ? How can we know ? well i look at my own grow, i only know what i see in it, i dont have to prove anyone besides my MJ that i know, and so far it seems they are accepting my logic, hmm sorry their logic


You, you are wrong. Go and read up.


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

Thats why your replies are full with words and documents that prove im wrong lol


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## Horselover fat (Jun 1, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Thats why your replies are full with words and documents that prove im wrong lol


Your posts are so filled with misunderstanding and just plain wrong, that it would be way too much work to do... You should do the work yourself if you are interested in knowing what is true.


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

I took the time and put forward YOUR numbers and maths, not mine, its the LED panels numbers.
Everyone can add or subtract whatever he wants, some people will use common sense some just like to think they know it all no matter how skewed their theory is, and thats ok bro dont take it too personal 
These are their numbers, YOU chose to add, i chose to subtract, to each his own.
Furthermore, you would think that by now the LED manufactures (as to support their claims) would have put lower and lower wattage diodes on their panels and add more qty of them cuz they scaled the tech down (like CPUs which only gets smaller not bigger) cuz hey, PAR and spectrum is everything right ? who cares about intensity  NOPE lol they just keep making them bigger and bigger cuz they know without intensity their diodes are pointless unless set up in array of panels which also dosent help because all your doing is making 300 suns with 250 Lm each oppose to a 150K sun in the same height, that is LUDACRIS to even compare, but hey im not a scientist.


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

I just want to point out that i think LED are the best Veg lights today in the market, you just cant beat the spread, MJ has shown it vegs under the smallest light source very good so for me as i have a 70 day veg time even the lame ass 250 Lm led diodes are enough cuz they spread over my whole 4 X 4, my next cycle im def gonna move the 800W led panel to the veg tent, and dim it to around 350W because i have 2 of those i will veg a 4 X 8
Now, sure a 4 250W or even 4 150W will do a better job at any given rate but the heat will be a big problem
So i give LEDs my thanks for making my Veg very nice and efficient in terms of plant size and wattage for sqf, also no way near the heat of HID, which is a big plus as i veg for 24 hours and if i needed to tackle the heat problem as well i would put a lot of $$$ in my electric bill
to sum it up, LED for veg, HPS or MH or CMH for flower depending on what your target is (full sun spectrum or full intensity) most of the time a good mix of both HPS and CMH will give you the best results, not in terms of power and heat but in terms of quality product.


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## Horselover fat (Jun 1, 2022)

snakedope said:


> I took the time and put forward YOUR numbers and maths, not mine, its the LED panels numbers.
> Everyone can add or subtract whatever he wants, some people will use common sense some just like to think they know it all no matter how skewed their theory is, and thats ok bro dont take it too personal
> These are their numbers, YOU chose to add, i chose to subtract, to each his own.
> Furthermore, you would think that by now the LED manufactures (as to support their claims) would have put lower and lower wattage diodes on their panels and add more qty of them cuz they scaled the tech down (like CPUs which only gets smaller not bigger) cuz hey, PAR and spectrum is everything right ? who cares about intensity  NOPE lol they just keep making them bigger and bigger cuz they know without intensity their diodes are pointless unless set up in array of panels which also dosent help because all your doing is making 300 suns with 250 Lm each oppose to a 150K sun in the same height, that is LUDACRIS to even compare, but hey im not a scientist.


You are free to continue being clueless. I'd suggest you don't, but it's your choice. If you do wish educate yourself, you could start by figuring out why 100k lux hps is quite a bit less light than 100k lux of white led. That's easy.


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

Reality says otherwise, sorry i have to believe reality.
Like i said, you chose to call your panel a 100k lux of white led, i call it a panel with 250 lm lux X 300
is my definition of these led panels are wrong ? are they not 288 or 300 or no matter how much diodes on a panel ? hmm maybe im missing something here


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## Horselover fat (Jun 1, 2022)

Yes.


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

So let me get this straight, OPTIC and OSRAM and HLG is telling people to put their 600+ watt panels at 5-7 inch distance because they are super high intensity 100 lux monsters ? Do you even crunch the numbers ? do you even find logic in those claims ? sorry i dont.
if i had a high intensity light, i would gladly put it 40 inch from my canopy and will deal with less heat WIN WIN but sorry again reality is skewing your paradigm haha 
Its not a secret or even debate. they clearly state that their lights are low intensity lights meant to be used 5 inch from canopy at best
So if your not gonna pour the time and info on this thread to show us "common folks" then why do you even comment ? lol
Stil im waiting for 1 reply from you that counter what i have said, non so far
But its ok bro im not arguing about nothing lol i just subtract and you added, good for us
Still reality is the most importent thing, still you cant deny or argue that we live in a HPS world 
The sun is magnetic current and it lights the sky when it touches nobel gases (just like HID) so ill take my bet on the sun, still open to opinions on the subject as i told, i found that led is very good for veg, which is the most $$$ consuming process for me atleast.


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## bk78 (Jun 1, 2022)

snakedope said:


> I NEVER CLAIMED TO KNOW ANYTHING !



We can see this by your ramblings


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## Cannabisco (Jun 1, 2022)

I personally can't put any of my leds closer than 12-16" from the canopy without getting some form of light stress, burn or bleaching. I usually as a rule stay 18" away from the canopy but I also use Cobs. This is my first year running a QB and they are the Samsung LM301H diodes. I've noticed I can move it a tad closer than my Cobs, but not by much. I like Led because I don't have to replace my bulbs every cpl grows. I've seen the low watt diodes - old Led tech. Amazon panels and not impressive. The new tech is tho especially the Samsung Evo diodes. I still love my Cobs tho. Having less heat is nice too, with HID I was around 92-97°, with over 1200 true watts of Led the highest it gets is 81° but average is 73-77°.


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## Star Dog (Jun 1, 2022)

Any member will confirm I know less than average about the technical jargon around lighting its boring, if you take all the spectrum graphs and technical bs out of the equation the end product tells all. 

*i have a 70 day veg time even the lame ass 250 Lm led diodes are enough cuz they spread over my whole 4 X 4*

I'm picturing tall and lanky.


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

I also feel that you are talking about the efficiency of LED to HPS, and you are right, they are more efficient, but are still rated 300 Lm for each !
So like i said before, when they make a diode that puts out more Lm then HPS (i dont care at which wattage as long as its lower then the HPS for their claims to be true) then we can start comparing, you are trying to compare high intensity lights (HPS) to low intensity lights, sorry not gonna work, 
LED it good for spread, nothing more.

I do however can understand that in theory, given the right diode and the right wattage and in enough time (because LED is more efficient) we will see tech companys that are able to reach this kind of tech will beat HPS, at the moment they give 300 Lm, am i wrong ? is there a super LED light that i missed ? 
I am truly sorry, but it wont help you to stick 1000 diodes on a panel, its still a 300 Lm "Monster" that needs to be 5 inch from canopy in order to have any effect on MED production, not VEG production ! this is basic math which applies to any light source, but not to LEDs for some reason lol

My plants are not tall and lanky, well comparing to HPS grows i had they are, now its under a 800w led not dimmed so full power from the get go and they stretched, also not too much, the WC more then the Blue Cheese, i think its mostly genetics, but i also see when you under power your light source it will also have an effect when it comes to stretching but not as much as genetics 

here is the Spyder led, look at the height that they recommend


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## Cannabisco (Jun 1, 2022)

What's your opinion about cob led. Cree, citizen & Vero? I run 12 cobs in my tent currently. 8 of those cobs are running at 50 watt. The cree cobs run at 100 watt per cob. Light.


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

Also i would like to note that im talking about MED production only, im in day 63 now of flower and frost & thc is nothing like HPS or MH, just isnt there.
You can see it clearly that the LEDs even my 800w monster cant seem to "Stress" or in other words, dont have the intensity to make the same high power MEDs that HPS so easy does, again comparing to HPS, im not saying it wont at all cuz hey i got 16 plants and they got some thc and frost but nothing like my other HPS grows, and its not just me, i see these "Buds" for lack of better term of people and i feel like they are missing the whole point, they grow massive trees that are beautiful and healthy but where is the MED in all of this ?? if u grow for fiber or oil i can relate to this kinda low intensity grows but im in it for the Potency brooo


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## Horselover fat (Jun 1, 2022)

Cannabisco said:


> I personally can't put any of my leds closer than 12-16" from the canopy without getting some form of light stress, burn or bleaching. I usually as a rule stay 18" away from the canopy but I also use Cobs. This is my first year running a QB and they are the Samsung LM301H diodes. I've noticed I can move it a tad closer than my Cobs, but not by much.


Yeah, cobs are smaller -> narrower light beam -> must be run higher up. If you make the light emitting surface smaller you have to move it further from the plants. Otherwise you just light a part of the canopy. If you make the emitting surface larger you have to move it closer (unless you have a way to avoid spilling the light).


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## larfybudz (Jun 1, 2022)

Why is it always the people who won’t post pictures that have the biggest, most resinous weeds?


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

Haha i never claimed i have the biggest, most resinous weeds lol
You really think i dont want to put pics of my grow so i can show u and make you proud of me ? i see people here putting pics and getting feedback and precious info that i cant get because of that, its not i like this situation, i love this site but never register, just read every little thing from 2008+ as im 35 by now, i went through a lot of reading and grow so much that i felt like not signing in is a waste of good ideas and words, either way i love people here and all the knowledge and ideas i get from here
Be sure i want to post my pics as bad as i want to smoke whats in them haha just i dont feel it justify the risk im exposing myself into
Today all we have is smart phones and taking pics is risky with GPS locations time stamps and all that shit, where are the days of the digital cam haha i miss those days badly, but i will put pics eventually when i will get over my paranoia shit


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## bk78 (Jun 1, 2022)

How to disable a smart phone's geotagging feature


Pictures taken with a GPS-enabled device can give up your location, as the recent arrest of John McAfee showed. But turning off the function is not hard.




gcn.com


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## lusidghost (Jun 1, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Haha i never claimed i have the biggest, most resinous weeds lol
> You really think i dont want to put pics of my grow so i can show u and make you proud of me ? i see people here putting pics and getting feedback and precious info that i cant get because of that, its not i like this situation, i love this site but never register, just read every little thing from 2008+ as im 35 by now, i went through a lot of reading and grow so much that i felt like not signing in is a waste of good ideas and words, either way i love people here and all the knowledge and ideas i get from here
> Be sure i want to post my pics as bad as i want to smoke whats in them haha just i dont feel it justify the risk im exposing myself into
> Today all we have is smart phones and taking pics is risky with GPS locations time stamps and all that shit, where are the days of the digital cam haha i miss those days badly, but i will put pics eventually when i will get over my paranoia shit


There's a whole thread of Malay growers on here.


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## Cannabisco (Jun 1, 2022)

Can't post pics.. but have you heard of a thing called vpn & multi-hop vpn? You can literally mask yourself online & the tech has been there for over a decade.
Sorry but I call bs , post pics of it or it didn't happen.
It's really easy and simple to use a ip block mask and a vpn. You can literally be in 3 different nations and hop every 5 min. I'm the type that if there is no proof I automatically assume a troll keyboard warrior at work. You can get vpn's for free, it's that simple.


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

What now ? im not from Malaysia bro 

*bk78 - *Not so good, google still keeps track on anything u do whether you pull ur sim card off or airplane mode, they still track everything.


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## Cannabisco (Jun 1, 2022)

Shit lol I keep all my pics on Google drive & never been an issue for me over the past 15 yrs.


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

Cannabisco said:


> Can't post pics.. but have you heard of a thing called vpn & multi-hop vpn? You can literally mask yourself online & the tech has been there for over a decade.
> Sorry but I call bs , post pics of it or it didn't happen.
> It's really easy and simple to use a ip block mask and a vpn. You can literally be in 3 different nations and hop every 5 min. I'm the type that if there is no proof I automatically assume a troll keyboard warrior at work. You can get vpn's for free, it's that simple.


Not trying to prove anything to anyone homie, just my xp with LED and HPS, you dont have to Call it truth or BS, i find it to be both when u cant prove something all the way, so no intention from me to prove anything, i just wrote the numbers they claim and try to put my common sense and scienctific backup into it.

About my grows, VPN and all that other shit dont really work, dont u think i tried that ? but like i said i will post pics at this harvest, as im in day 63 today, and will post pics a couple of days from now when i harvest and everything is clean so i dont care if i get raided lol


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## lusidghost (Jun 1, 2022)

snakedope said:


> What now ? im not from Malaysia bro


Yeah, I'm just calling you a pussy. I'm from a red state and I post pictures. They won't sentence me to death like in Malaysia though.


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

Good for you, i learned to SHUT UP about my growing, its not a death sentence here for that, but i value my freedom more then any plant on this earth, so if that serve you good to put pics and everything be my guest, i sure love seeing them so i appreciate you for that.
Still, im a man of my word, you will see pics


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

And you will see that even though i hate LEDs for flower, my current grow uses 2 X 780W panels above a 4 X 8
i got em from a friend who has a hydro shop and gave them to me to check out before he start selling them in bulk in my country
In Veg i had the biggest leafs i could ever see from any light i used, also growing pretty damn rapidly under it, not too much in plant mess and branches just the pace of it looked good at the time and heat managment was good so i prefer them for veg from now on 
LEDs def have a place in my grows, just not in my flower tent


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## lusidghost (Jun 1, 2022)

snakedope said:


> And you will see that even though i hate LEDs for flower, my current grow uses 2 X 780W panels above a 4 X 8
> i got em from a friend who has a hydro shop and gave them to me to check out before he start selling them in bulk in my country
> In Veg i had the biggest leafs i could ever see from any light i used, also growing pretty damn rapidly under it, not too much in plant mess and branches just the pace of it looked good at the time and heat managment was good so i prefer them for veg from now on
> LEDs def have a place in my grows, just not in my flower tent


What country?


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## bk78 (Jun 1, 2022)

lusidghost said:


> What country?


Germany?


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## Billy the Mountain (Jun 1, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Not trying to prove anything to anyone homie, just my xp with LED and HPS, you dont have to Call it truth or BS, i find it to be both when u cant prove something all the way, so no intention from me to prove anything, i just wrote the numbers they claim and try to put my common sense and scienctific backup into it.
> 
> About my grows, VPN and all that other shit dont really work, dont u think i tried that ? but like i said i will post pics at this harvest, as im in day 63 today, and will post pics a couple of days from now when i harvest and everything is clean so i dont care if i get raided lol


VPNs and "that other shit" work exactly as expected: the only traffic visible is an encrypted connection between your device and VPN provider. If not, you need a new VPN host.

It's also trivial to strip EXIF data from a photo, from Windows via the file explorer: properties, details, remove personal info.
For Linux "exiftool -all= myfile.jpg"


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

Yeah i used VPN just cant seem to make it load pages right, i used all kinds of software but i run Win XP on my comp (dont laugh) 
So i dont have compatibility to do nothing, i find it amazing that firefox even loads RIU cuz most of the time its just telling me to update my broswer and OS hahaahah those fuckers !! i will not do so, i love my Win XP ! lol
after i saw the article on CBS i think it was about how google track everything even when ur cell is off or without sim in it, even without connecting to a WIFI, this people put antennas in all this phones and new comp, they are standalone apart from power supply of wifi connection, they think they are smart, but i have a NOKIA 2G at hand


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## larfybudz (Jun 1, 2022)

You’ve already admitted to growing in a 4x8 here, wouldn’t that be enough to justify a search warrant if any police officer actually cared about a home grower growing their medication in a 4x8?


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

Nope, and even if it did, who to say its in my house ? 
The trail is far and blurred, thats how i like it here, you gotta know the forces that be
I know em way too well, and they know me, each bread crumb is just another thing for them to add to my record and cause me trouble
Really, i gave my word that u will see pics from this grow and only time (few days) will tell. 
Also this is LED vs HPS thread not my grow journal so id like to keep it on that subject as it a place to share and learn not fight whos got what

So far its cool that people tell me im wrong but i want them to share their thoughts aswell, people think that other people start a debate to fight, no, its to learn and understand what is other people side of the story !


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## dizzygirlio (Jun 1, 2022)

I'm obviously not an expert, but I've grown with both and I have a strong feeling the answer to this question is subjective to skillset, location, phenotype and grow medium. Probably an expert grower can use either and grow decent weed. Where I live, and with my skillset, HPS doesn't work. It's too hot. I grow in soil and am not super good at it so it takes awhile which means that even in the winter HPS doesn't work for me. By the time I work out all the problems I've created it's too hot again. Not to mention the lack of humidity where I live makes HPS even less helpful. LED's give me a full spectrum of light, a nice cool temp, aren't sensitive to my constant humidifier and my slow ass can take as long as I need to fix all my problems before I throw it into flower. I wouldn't dream of trying hydro again with an HPS in my area. With the algae and pythium it was a constant battle.


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## hotrodharley (Jun 1, 2022)

snakedope said:


> So, ive grown with both of them, and also see in other people threads (the LED ones) that weight increased due to more diodes giving light at more places but the bud itself and quality for me was shit and to be honest also in most of the LED journals i look it looks shit too, when i say shit i mean when comparing to HPS or MH, each LED grow i smoke and see is shit quality, i mean what can you expect from a diode that only make 250 Lm ??
> 
> according to the book of old LED myths and legends chapter 2, an array of many leds (like the 600W+ panels) give you a total lets say 100,000 Lm right ? wrong ! you just added 300+ 250 Lm diodes together lol, its quite embarrassing that people forget simple math and logic when it comes to spending money on bogus claims, i saw on another thread here a LED panel that claims 5000 umol for 5000 $$ hahahaha i wonder if i put 10K i will get 10K umol  people are so gullible these days and that goes for all led panels, ive pretty much tried them all from the lowest wattage ones to a "beast" 800w panels
> And will never use them again, the only thing they do good is covering more space, but with what ? a low intensity small diode lol
> ...


Are you taking the medication the doctors have prescribed?


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 1, 2022)

snakedope said:


> HLG is telling people to put their 600+ watt panels at 5-7 inch distance


No they aren't:


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## Cannabisco (Jun 1, 2022)

dizzygirlio said:


> I'm obviously not an expert, but I've grown with both and I have a strong feeling the answer to this question is subjective to skillset, location, phenotype and grow medium. Probably an expert grower can use either and grow decent weed. Where I live, and with my skillset, HPS doesn't work. It's too hot. I grow in soil and am not super good at it so it takes awhile which means that even in the winter HPS doesn't work for me. By the time I work out all the problems I've created it's too hot again. Not to mention the lack of humidity where I live makes HPS even less helpful. LED's give me a full spectrum of light, a nice cool temp, aren't sensitive to my constant humidifier and my slow ass can take as long as I need to fix all my problems before I throw it into flower. I wouldn't dream of trying hydro again with an HPS in my area. With the algae and pythium it was a constant battle.



Hit the nail on the head with that statement & those are some of my main reasons as well & then some that I've already stated. Sure you can grow fire with HIDs, but it's just way more efficient for me with LEC & LED. Also I worry alot less about a fire hazard with leds.
Plus no more homemade accidental brandings from bumping into hps bulbs.


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

And spyder says 6 to 12
Read carefully they say for even spread, it doesn’t say if it’s Best at 18.


PJ Diaz said:


> No they aren't:
> View attachment 5142609


Ok so HLG dont, but common sense says that if the Spyder needs to be 6 inch to perform at its best then what does it says about other panels ?
You will see them drop their heights over time, you cant avoid it with LEDs, you want something out your flower tent then you need to drop them to 6 inch at least, Remember thats what Spyder says not me.

*hotrodharley - *Lovely comment, filled with knowledge and wisdom, sure hope u stop by again <3


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## rkymtnman (Jun 1, 2022)

snakedope said:


> And spyder says 6 to 12
> Read carefully they say for even spread, it doesn’t say if it’s Best at 18.
> 
> 
> ...


my optimal ppfd is at 12" @ 100% output above canopy per the manufacturer.


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## SSHZ (Jun 1, 2022)

After 8 grows with the Gavita, I can tell you anything closer than 16” will cause light bleaching. I keep them around 26-30 inches in veg, down to 18-20 inches in flowering. You can actually tell how intense an led is by how close or far away they must be kept.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 1, 2022)

snakedope said:


> And spyder says 6 to 12
> Read carefully they say for even spread, it doesn’t say if it’s Best at 18.
> 
> 
> ...


I could care less what Spyder says, because I've grown under both LED and HID lighting, and know what the reality is. If grown under optimal environmental conditions for each light in question, there is really no difference in quality. You have no idea what you're talking about.


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## snakedope (Jun 1, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> I could care less what Spyder says, because I've grown under both LED and HID lighting, and know what the reality is. If grown under optimal environmental conditions for each light in question, there is really no difference in quality. You have no idea what you're talking about.


Maybe so, i accept your opinion, and respect it no matter what may be the truth
I just told my perspective on lights and the science behind them, you dont have to agree or disagree.


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## Cannabisco (Jun 2, 2022)

The only type of lights I would recommend placing 6" from canopy are cfl's, fluorescent & very low watt low intensity leds. The new leds I wouldnt recommend placing anywhere closer than 12" or you will get light stress, bleach, burn and possibly fry your terps & trichomes. But hey that's me, better to be safe than sorry.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

There are no shortcuts to growing dank weed, you must control the heat of a high intensity light (the more intense the better) 
If you are trying to "Go Around" the heat problem sort of speak and trade your intensity for better heat management (Which is exactly what LEDs offer) then you better off growing mushrooms 
People don't realize 1 simple thing, making a plant grow is not a problem even with the smallest intensity light, people all over the internet show this, 90w UFO light will grow trees if given the time needed, but how can that be ? because a plant can bust through concrete, stone sidewalks, etc.. with just a little bit of light and water, and from there the options are unlimited.
BUT, to make a plant produce frosty rich trichomes is a whole different thing, you MUST have strength,
both from the light source and from the plant itself. 

Read carefully, in the bible it says "for as a human, so the tree of the field", meaning, we are not so different from them, you can learn a lot about humans if u study trees
Like humans, you must add things that will help the process of what you are trying to achieve, if its muscles then u train and eat a lot of protein, if its a craft of some kind you practice it and perfect the tools and skills for it.

So, You must divide the growing production and trichome production into 2 different sections, 
Why is that ? because at different stages you need different things, like muscles, your body needs water and food to keep itself going, but your muscles need high protein and stress to be at their finest, so you can give your plants just plain water and food and light, and they will survive just being alive, like us humans  but to grow their muscles you must have that extra kick, the PROTEIN ! 

We can all agree trichome production is a defense mechanism of the plant, defense from what ? well, some say bugs, some say UV, some say high intensity light.. we can agree on them all, but reality shows us, that indoor grows lack the bugs to maintain such high levels of stress and frost, also UV is not a factor in indoor growing as most of the people just grow with LEDs or HPSs 
What are we left with ? oh yeah.. strong lights...
Its consisted, trichomes (lets call it the muscles of the plants for better clarification on the things above) like high intensity lights, they thrive under it, they cover the whole plant, protecting it not from bugs or UV but from the heat and the intensity of the light.

Peace


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## rkymtnman (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> What are we left with ? oh yeah.. strong lights


how do you explain trichomes on plants under blurple led, grown inside, with no bugs? 

hmmm...


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

Did you even read what i said ? i said its not the bugs, its not the uv, its the heat and light intensity !
LEDs like i said ! will grow your plant, but thats about it, it will have trichomes but very low if any (i think you are counting the white trichomes stalk instead trichomes heads) and i just say LED but it goes to any low intensity light.


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## Moist.Farms (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Did you even read what i said ? i said its not the bugs, its not the uv, its the heat and light intensity !
> LEDs like i said ! will grow your plant, but thats about it, it will have trichomes but very low if any (i think you are counting the white trichomes stalk instead trichomes heads) and i just say LED but it goes to any low intensity light.


Are you trying to say that LEDs are low intensity light? 

Im not very versed in lighting but from my understanding LEDs produce higher PPFD for the same wattage as HPS. 
So watt for watt LEDs output more light intensity compared to HPS. 

I am confusion.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

You talk about the efficiency of a light source, yes, LED tech is more efficient at making light compared to HID, if you read the whole thread thats not what this is about, even though LED is more efficient as a standalone watt for watt then HID, it still comes in small wattage such as 2w 3w diodes that put out 300 Lm, so just like in any light source if you split it you wont get the total amount of light but get the total amount of each light source that you split, in our case HPS is a single light source that push 150K Lm, and a LED diode is a light source that push 300 Lm, it dosent matter if you put 300 of those next to each other, you still have 300 Lm max output but in 300 different places, you dont have now 300 X 300 lm output, because you spread the output to 300 bulbs.


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## rkymtnman (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> i said its not the bugs, its not the uv


but it is bugs, it is uv too. it's not just light intensity


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## rkymtnman (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Did you even read what i said ?


i did read it. it's incorrect. did you read what i said? i've grown plants under blurple,, no bugs, no HID and no uv and they had plently of trichomes . and a trichome wouldn't have a head without a stalk.


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## Moist.Farms (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> You talk about the efficiency of a light source, yes, LED tech is more efficient at making light compared to HID, if you read the whole thread thats not what this is about, even though LED is more efficient as a standalone watt for watt then HID, it still comes in small wattage such as 2w 3w diodes that put out 300 Lm, so just like in any light source if you split it you wont get the total amount of light but get the total amount of each light source that you split, in our case HPS is a single light source that push 150K Lm, and a LED diode is a light source that push 300 Lm, it dosent matter if you put 300 of those next to each other, you still have 300 Lm max output but in 300 different places, you dont have now 300 X 300 lm output, because you spread the output to 300 bulbs.


Sure but how does any of that actually translate into a tangible effect that makes a difference to the plants?


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## rkymtnman (Jun 2, 2022)

Moist.Farms said:


> Sure but how does any of that actually translate into a tangible effect that makes a difference to the plants?





https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4559655/


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

rkymtnman said:


> but it is bugs, it is uv too. it's not just light intensity


Reality says otherwise, you have no bugs in your indoor grow, not enough to justify trichome production
Also uv is rather lacking in indoor grows so it cant be that... maybe that and the bugs contribute to this manner, thats why i said we can all agree that its bugs, uv, strong light etc.. but the first two (bugs,uv) are clearly missing in huge qtys in indoor growing, and im not talking about nowdays im talking about like 20 years ago, everyone grew with HPS alone without any UV and got amazing results, still do.
So we are left with the light and the plant in this case.

I know u grew under blurple without uv and bug and hid, and i was saying the same things as you, you will have trichome production, but just very low, not comparable to higher intensity light
And yes, trichomes stalks without or very small and immature heads on them is a very REAL phenomena, just go to the grow journals section and check out LEDs and other low intensity grows.


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## Cannabisco (Jun 2, 2022)

Idk personally I've grown with both indoors and have gotten better growth, yield , potency, flavors & better trichome production when using leds vs hps.
My no trichome buds grown under led lights.. lol.
Pics from harvest & week 6 of flower.
The best chance of good trichome production starts with genetics.


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## Cannabisco (Jun 2, 2022)

Here is a pic of one of my buds grown under hps.
Little to no trichome production. It was big tho & airy due to high hps heat.


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## Cannabisco (Jun 2, 2022)

I've seen trichome laden buds that were grown under cfls & florescent lights.
Pretty sure it mostly is just genetics, sure light helps & uv can help as well.
So can pgrp rhizo products & the right nutrients at the right time. But honestly I think it all comes down to genetics & skill. Some have it , some don't , some will eventually get there & some are just hopeless and should just rely on dispos. Making excuses doesn't change factual results. As long as you have the right skills & genetics you can have trichome laden buds grown under any lights.. dare I even say flashlights.
For me, led lights just do the job better & at better cost efficiency.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Maybe so, i accept your opinion, and respect it no matter what may be the truth
> I just told my perspective on lights and the science behind them, you dont have to agree or disagree.


Reality says that you haven't checked the physics of your theory. You haven't presented any "science" at all. Sorry, but you are wrong.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

Cannabisco said:


> Idk personally I've grown with both indoors and have gotten better growth, yield , potency, flavors & better trichome production when using leds vs hps.
> My no trichome buds grown under led lights.. lol.
> Pics from harvest & week 6 of flower.
> The best chance of good trichome production starts with genetics.


You have trichomes, no doubt about it, and thats what i said before, you will have, a lot ? well that only a lab can determine, but my bet with every LED system that it will be very low (again, compared to HID, not compared to no trichome production at all)

I do agree fully on the genetics part, it all starts there, like i started a and you b, to each his own starting point (genetics), but, genetics wont define my later growth and abilits, they will define the limits and start lines, but reality shows us you can push them very hard, both ways, improve or degrade.

Cannabisco - If you had a heat problem then No frost will be the outcome, i had burned some plants aswell, i feel for you, THC and trichome coverage degrade drastically, ive seen this with my own burned plants, one day they were covered with frost, 2 days later the tent was at like 34C blasting the canopy with heat, needless to say i wrecked them lol


----------



## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Reality says that you haven't checked the physics of your theory. You haven't presented any "science" at all. Sorry, but you are wrong.


So putting 300 diodes together and say "this panel has 110K Lm !!" is science ? bro..


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> So putting 300 diodes together and say "this panel has 110K Lm !!" is science ? bro..


No, it's the scientific testing that they do on the fixtures which tells us the numbers. See the attached example. Your rantings are meaningless, on the other hand.


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## rkymtnman (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> So putting 300 diodes together and say "this panel has 110K Lm !!" is science ? bro..


diffuse light > single point light source


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4559655/


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## rkymtnman (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> but my bet with every LED system that it will be very low (again, compared to HID, not compared to no trichome production at all)


you should do a side by side (led vs hps) with 2 clones from same mother. otherwise, it's pure speculation on your part.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

Cannabisco said:


> I've seen trichome laden buds that were grown under cfls & florescent lights.
> Pretty sure it mostly is just genetics, sure light helps & uv can help as well.
> So can pgrp rhizo products & the right nutrients at the right time. But honestly I think it all comes down to genetics & skill. Some have it , some don't , some will eventually get there & some are just hopeless and should just rely on dispos. Making excuses doesn't change factual results. As long as you have the right skills & genetics you can have trichome laden buds grown under any lights.. dare I even say flashlights.
> For me, led lights just do the job better & at better cost efficiency.


I like you man, you are on point indeed
But unfortunately flashlights and low intensity lights wont grow good trichomes, its a fact, not fiction.
Dont believe me ? go to the grow journals, again, check out the 90W UFO buds, check out 600w+ panels buds, check out the 400w led buds, tell me what do you think, i agree that genetics and grower play a huge role, mainly in VEG and ways to over yield plants, the trichome production is not so user adjusted but more light and water\food adjusted before hand

Btw, cfl are stronger lights then LED, hence why you saw them laden with trichomes 
,


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## gr865 (Jun 2, 2022)

@*rkymtnman*

Hey Rocky, how are tricks?


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## rkymtnman (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Btw, cfl are stronger lights then LED


you just lost all credibility. and you didn't have any to spare.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> No, it's the scientific testing that they do on the fixtures which tells us the numbers. See the attached example. Your rantings are meaningless, on the other hand.


What does this testing tell us beside what we already know ? 650w total panel with many many low intensity diodes that put on avg par of 1780, cool, now lets try the same testing with a 600w hps at the same height, wanna guess the par numbers ?
You still dont accept the fact the the diode itself puts out 300 Lm, a plant can use most of this 300 Lm spectrum (as your par testing suggests) but its too weak to get to your plants at the first place !
its not personal, just ACTUAL light math.


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## rkymtnman (Jun 2, 2022)

gr865 said:


> @*rkymtnman*
> 
> Hey Rocky, how are tricks?


all good here @gr865 kiddo is done with school for the summer, just had 2 feet of snow 10 days ago and got one last grow going before i shut down for the rest of summer.

how about you??


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## Budzbuddha (Jun 2, 2022)

*CFL - 

C*rappy
*F*louro
*L*ight


----------



## Cannabisco (Jun 2, 2022)

All I'm saying are my results to which I've posted pics as my proof. Led grows better trichome laden plants vs hps for me. It just does the job alot better. Hps has never impressed me. CMH has & LED has. 
This year is my first year experimenting with emerson effect & T5 uva/uvb supplementation- currently in the 3rd week of flower. I still have my hps packed up in a box - retired due to being outdated compared to my other lights. I don't miss it a bit. 
But hey different strokes for different folks. If you like hps that's awesome, I don't.. it just doesn't do it for me anymore.


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## Moist.Farms (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> its not personal, just ACTUAL light math.


 Its closer to crayons on an Applebees napkin to be honest.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

rkymtnman said:


> you just lost all credibility. and you didn't have any to spare.


You just dont seem to get it lol
LED HAS ONLY 2-5W DIODES !!! THAT PUTS OUT 300 Lm !!!
a friggin CFL bulb (mostly never come in 2-5 watt) but instead in 14w + are stronger ! a 14 watt cfl puts out more Lm then a 5w diode
More watt indeed, but we dont have a 14w diode to compare ! so dont compare high intensity wattage lights to low !
Cant compare them, will never work, if you know your science you know this when u are in 3rd grade


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## gr865 (Jun 2, 2022)

rkymtnman said:


> all good here @gr865 kiddo is done with school for the summer, just had 2 feet of snow 10 days ago and got one last grow going before i shut down for the rest of summer.
> 
> how about you??


I am OK, but have a couple of procedures one Monday then about two weeks later the other.
Sent you a message, but I just lost 6 Auto's in four days.
I know you don't do coco anymore, are you doing DWC or RDWC?


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> What does this testing tell us beside what we already know ? 650w total panel with many many low intensity diodes that put on avg par of 1780, cool, now lets try the same testing with a 600w hps at the same height, wanna guess the par numbers ?
> You still dont accept the fact the the diode itself puts out 300 Lm, a plant can use most of this 300 Lm spectrum (as your par testing suggests) but its too weak to get to your plants at the first place !
> its not personal, just ACTUAL light math.


Except that photons are additive, which your math doesn't represent. A 600w HPS will have lower numbers, because much of it's energy is lost to non visible waves, which are outside of the PAR range.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

Cannabisco said:


> All I'm saying are my results to which I've posted pics as my proof. Led grows better trichome laden plants vs hps for me. It just does the job alot better. Hps has never impressed me. CMH has & LED has.
> This year is my first year experimenting with emerson effect & T5 uva/uvb supplementation- currently in the 3rd week of flower. I still have my hps packed up in a box - retired due to being outdated compared to my other lights. I don't miss it a bit.
> But hey different strokes for different folks. If you like hps that's awesome, I don't.. it just doesn't do it for me anymore.


Respect for trying different things and learning, always good to hear other people opinions and experiments.
Btw
*rkymtnman*
i did grow both, im in the end of my LED grow right now.
You guys act like i hate LEDs lol... i dont, i use them for VEG and they are very good in that aspect
But, grow journals here and my own growing with them shows me that you should never flower with them
If u had good results, that only means you can have even better using a stronger light source, if u can manage the heat that is


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## rkymtnman (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> You just dont seem to get it lol
> LED HAS ONLY 2-5W DIODES !!! THAT PUTS OUT 300 Lm !!!
> a friggin CFL bulb (mostly never come in 2-5 watt) but instead in 14w + are stronger ! a 14 watt cfl puts out more Lm then a 5w diode
> More watt indeed, but we dont have a 14w diode to compare ! so dont compare high intensity wattage lights to low !
> Cant compare them, will never work, if you know your science you know this when u are in 3rd grade


watts has nothing to do with light efficiency. a 600w hps is more efficient at producing light than a 1000w hps..


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Respect for trying different things and learning, always good to hear other people opinions and experiments.
> Btw
> *rkymtnman*
> i did grow both, im in the end of my LED grow right now.
> ...


I've grown the same strains under multiple lighting sources, and the quality is generally the same.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Except that photons are additive, which your math doesn't represent. A 600w HPS will have lower numbers, because much of it's energy is lost to non visible waves, which are outside of the PAR range.


You are right, but only on paper, as reality shows us otherwise, i rather to stick to reality.
Because of that, to each his own, its not a fight anyway just a discussion about lights.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

rkymtnman said:


> watts has nothing to do with light efficiency. a 600w hps is more efficient at producing light than a 1000w hps..


Sorry that i have to say this a 1000 times, im not talking about efficiency of light !
Im talking about efficacy of 1 light source opposed to 300 light sources with lower intensity light in each one of the 300.


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## Moist.Farms (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> What does this testing tell us beside what we already know ? 650w total panel with many many low intensity diodes that put on avg par of 1780, cool, now lets try the same testing with a 600w hps at the same height, wanna guess the par numbers ?
> You still dont accept the fact the the diode itself puts out 300 Lm, a plant can use most of this 300 Lm spectrum (as your par testing suggests) but its too weak to get to your plants at the first place !
> its not personal, just ACTUAL light math.


This guy has to just be trolling here. Everyone is aware that a 600w LED will put out higher PPFD than a 650w HPS. 
Individual diodes doesnt matter here what so ever.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Sorry that i have to say this a 1000 times, im not talking about efficiency of light !
> Im talking about efficacy of 1 light source opposed to 300 light sources with lower intensity light in each one of the 300.


With multiple light sources, you get the advantage of light hitting the plant and deep into the canopy from multiple angles. With a singular light source, you will always have a strong center hotspot and shaded areas in the inner canopy.


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## rkymtnman (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Sorry that i have to say this a 1000 times, im not talking about efficiency of light !
> Im talking about efficacy of 1 light source opposed to 300 light sources with lower intensity light in each one of the 300.


and i posted an article that shows cannabis does better under 300 different light sources than a single point light sources. that's based on science , not feelings or beliefs. 

read it plz


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4559655/


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## Moist.Farms (Jun 2, 2022)

rkymtnman said:


> and i posted an article that shows cannabis does better under 300 different light sources than a single point light sources. that's based on science , not feelings or beliefs.
> 
> read it plz
> 
> ...


 Na he ignored that whole part where we talked about tangible data.


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## Cannabisco (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> I like you man, you are on point indeed
> But unfortunately flashlights and low intensity lights wont grow good trichomes, its a fact, not fiction.
> Dont believe me ? go to the grow journals, again, check out the 90W UFO buds, check out 600w+ panels buds, check out the 400w led buds, tell me what do you think, i agree that genetics and grower play a huge role, mainly in VEG and ways to over yield plants, the trichome production is not so user adjusted but more light and water\food adjusted before hand
> 
> ...


Sorry but in my opinion you are a troll. I don't care about other people journal's. I care about the actual proof I have witnessed in person. How do I know those peoples skill sets and all the variables they posted vs didn't post. I know I have grown with all types of lights: cfls, florescent T12, T8, T5, HPS, MH, CMH, ufo lights, smd, LED & COBs and led Qb's & cobs blew every other light away.. for me anyways. Sure I've seen other people use all those lights I've stated successfully, even induction.. As for flashlight flowering, I guess you haven't taken notice that most flashlights are led or cobs, so theoretically it could be done. Anyways I was just saying that because, any light except incandescent lights can grow bud. You can say whatever your opinion is and that's great, but I'll trust the proof from my grows instead & gauge what works best for me. It's been a long road of trial & error , but my love for led & cobs are here to stay. They do the job better.


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## rkymtnman (Jun 2, 2022)

Moist.Farms said:


> Na he ignored that whole part where we talked about tangible data.


i'm leaning towards troll now.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

Moist.Farms said:


> This guy has to just be trolling here. Everyone is aware that a 600w LED will put out higher PPFD than a 650w HPS.
> Individual diodes doesnt matter here what so ever.


The only one thats trolling is you, we are having a discussion about lights, if you dont have nothing to contribute then your comments are nothing but trolling, we know the fake science of LEDs, dont need to tell us again the LEDs make more par, we know this, but that PAR never has enough intensity to get to your plants, so its useless.

PJ DIAZ - you were right if those multiple light sources had any substantial power, which they dont, not at this wattage, not at this Lm output.

*rkymtnman - *Again, you are confusing cannabis (plant) to trichomes production and potency (reaction that dosent care about which light hit it, just the strength of it mainly)
Maybe LED do veg better cannabis, who knows ? maybe they do need less intensity when they are in VEG, i think now, as the sun is 2000 umol even when they are small and fragile.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

rkymtnman said:


> i'm leaning towards troll now.


Wish i was a troll, just im 1 person against all of you that are thirsty for knowledge and im happy to been able to step on your toes
Keeps you alive inside, 
If you cant see the tangible part about giving your plants at least half of the sun power or maybe more (because with LEDs you dont give even 1%) then this thread is not for you haha


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

Cannabisco said:


> Sorry but in my opinion you are a troll. I don't care about other people journal's. I care about the actual proof I have witnessed in person. How do I know those peoples skill sets and all the variables they posted vs didn't post. I know I have grown with all types of lights: cfls, florescent T12, T8, T5, HPS, MH, CMH, ufo lights, smd, LED & COBs and led Qb's & cobs blew every other light away.. for me anyways. Sure I've seen other people use all those lights I've stated successfully, even induction.. As for flashlight flowering, I guess you haven't taken notice that most flashlights are led or cobs, so theoretically it could be done. Anyways I was just saying that because, any light except incandescent lights can grow bud. You can say whatever your opinion is and that's great, but I'll trust the proof from my grows instead & gauge what works best for me. It's been a long road of trial & error , but my love for led & cobs are here to stay. They do the job better.


You should care, evidence is all around there haha
Yeah maybe they dont know what they are doing, maybe not, im glad you found your golden path anyway.


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## Moist.Farms (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> dont need to tell us again the LEDs make more par, we know this, but that PAR never has enough intensity to get to your plants, so its useless.


Par literally equals intensity.


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## rkymtnman (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Wish i was a troll, just im 1 person against all of you that are thirsty for knowledge and im happy to been able to step on your toes
> Keeps you alive inside,
> If you cant see the tangible part about giving your plants at least half of the sun power or maybe more (because with LEDs you dont give even 1%) then this thread is not for you haha


my 320w led puts out more lumens than a 400 w hps. 52,210 vs 50,000 using less power. 

<case closed>


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

No it dosent, Lm defines intensity, PAR define how much of intensity is divided in the 400-700 spectrum
So Leds have lots of PAR, sure, cuz they are made to put light waves in the PAR spectrum, very very good indeed, but no power, only 2w, only 3w...
So no, intensity is not there.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

rkymtnman said:


> my 320w led puts out more lumens than a 400 w hps. 52,210 vs 50,000 using less power.
> 
> <case closed>


LOL, no, your 320w led puts 250 or 300Lm for each diode, you dont add them up, light dosent work like that.
when you have multiple sources of light you dont add them for a final Lm count, you count each Lm and say:
I got 300 250 Lm lights across my whole canopy, sounds more like it.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

rkymtnman said:


> my 320w led puts out more lumens than a 400 w hps. 52,210 vs 50,000 using less power.
> 
> <case closed>


BTW this comment alone is enough to understand that you never even did the math before you started commenting, no offence, but you sound like the LED salesmen lol


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## rkymtnman (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> BTW this comment alone is enough to understand that you never even did the math before you started commenting, no offence, but you sound like the LED salesmen lol


no offense but i'm using the results of an actual sphere test. no math involved. well, i guess some math is involved.

52,210 is greater than 50,000. 

led more lumens than hps at 80 less watts. 

sorry boss. you lost this argument.


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## Cannabisco (Jun 2, 2022)

Yeah my golden pathway, took years to figure out & compile. My meter states I have more light in my tent than what the sun puts out at its peak. Under led in my tent, the meter maxes out and doesn't read any higher. I have over 1200 compiled real watts of led in my tent running avg. 75°- 77°F, never higher than 81° with my ventilation system on medium setting. But when I use HID specifically hps & the same ventilation running at max temps are 92°-97°. And my meter says I'm not getting as much light. Plus hps color spectrum is lacking compared to led.
Led just works better for me & allows me to give more usable light to my ladies, in the right spectrums. With supplemental I'm covering from 285nm - 730nm, with temps at a place that helps bud density instead of high heat that hinders density & trichomes production.
Ventilation is 2- AC Infinity Cloudline T8's.
Believe me I tried to love HPS for over 3 years, wasn't impressed.
Was impressed by CMH & LED and the results they produced. LED for the win for me, just does the job better.


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## bk78 (Jun 2, 2022)

rkymtnman said:


> i'm leaning towards troll now.


I leaned that way his first ever post


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## Cannabisco (Jun 2, 2022)

This post shouldn't be HPS vs LED.

It should be LEC (CMH) vs LED.
It has already been scientifically proven that LED is superior to HPS in every way.

With that being said, this is my last post on this thread. It's been entertaining .


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## Moist.Farms (Jun 2, 2022)

rkymtnman said:


> no offense but i'm using the results of an actual sphere test. no math involved. well, i guess some math is involved.
> 
> 52,210 is greater than 50,000.
> 
> ...


Damn, now you've scared him off for good.


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## Moist.Farms (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> LOL, no, your 320w led puts 250 or 300Lm for each diode, you dont add them up, light dosent work like that.
> when you have multiple sources of light you dont add them for a final Lm count, you count each Lm and say:
> I got 300 250 Lm lights across my whole canopy, sounds more like it.


Literally the simplest google search will provide you with dozens of sources all claiming that Lumens do indeed stack. 
You're either a bad troll or just really enjoy growing sub par weed. 

LEDs are the new standard and its ben proven. You either get with it or get left behind smoking mids. 

Im also outtie this thread. Its been entertaining.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

rkymtnman said:


> no offense but i'm using the results of an actual sphere test. no math involved. well, i guess some math is involved.
> 
> 52,210 is greater than 50,000.
> 
> ...


Send me this test please if u can, and please dont send me a LED company stating they did the tests and got those results
Send me a third party company that did it.

Cannabisco - if your temps were 92-97 no wonder you didnt get good results, you were not able to manage the heat, a very importent thing i said in the beginning of my comments, HPS makes tons of heat, im not saying it wont.

BK78 - At least someone pouring information and sharing thoughts and learning curves, instead of just laughing, i understand that you dont understand nothing in this thread, still, no need to show us that so often.

Cannabisco - LED is superior to HPS on paper only, we dont have high enough wattage diodes to compare between them
and putting 300 on a panel and comparing them is also a shot in the dark and not a way to test this in a fully scientific way
I wish they had higher Lm output diodes, at even bigger voltages, because we will start to see a single diode put more Lm then a HPS, then this Compare contest will be more relevant.


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## Budzbuddha (Jun 2, 2022)

I’m gonna just say it …… who cares ?

FIFY


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

Moist.Farms said:


> Literally the simplest google search will provide you with dozens of sources all claiming that Lumens do indeed stack.
> You're either a bad troll or just really enjoy growing sub par weed.
> 
> LEDs are the new standard and its ben proven. You either get with it or get left behind smoking mids.
> ...



Lumens Stack, Never beyond their initial count.
So if you like stackes of 300 Lm thats good for you


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Except that photons are additive, which your math doesn't represent. A 600w HPS will have lower numbers, because much of it's energy is lost to non visible waves, which are outside of the PAR range.



You Sure ? You really need to think reality wise, if this was the case, how the hell MJ grows so good under HPS ? and when i say "grows" i dont mean VEG ! i mean the other sticky stuff...
Its not that HPS wavelengths are out of the PAR spectrum, its just that they are very concentrated on limited PAR wavelengths
Now, ON PAPER i can see that this is baffling, because its colliding with reality (the full spectrum of the sun), but in reality like it has been proven for many many years by many many HID growers for max THC and FROST you dont need perfect PAR wavelengths you need INTENSITY ! every HPS grower that has ever lived can vouch for that.

EDIT: About LEC, they are amazing bulbs, just not so strong as HPS, but they make up for it in their perfect spectrum, ive seen the most high end meds from CMH, no doubt about it, you do sacrifice yield but the tech is there for many years and will only get better with more wattage bulbs and more intense full spectrum mini sun in our tents


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> View attachment 5143351
> You Sure ? You really need to think reality wise, if this was the case, how the hell MJ grows so good under HPS ? and when i say "grows" i dont mean VEG ! i mean the other sticky stuff...
> Its not that HPS wavelengths are out of the PAR spectrum, its just that they are very concentrated on limited PAR wavelengths
> Now, ON PAPER i can see that this is baffling, because its colliding with reality (the full spectrum of the sun), but in reality like it has been proven for many many years by many many HID growers for THC and FROST you dont need perfect PAR wavelengths you need INTENSITY ! every HPS grower that has ever lived can vouch for that.


Yeah, I'm sure. I've already checked into all of this years ago. Your chart stops at 730nm. Neat trick at cutting off a bunch of the radiation from the chart. Here's what it looks like when we include the spectrum outside of the PAR range. See that huge IR spike around 820nm:







I was a HPS grower long before I was an LED grower. I know the differences.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

I cut the pic cuz its very low peak after 730 nm, not worth even mentioning, as most of its strength a HPS bulb delivers within PAR range
What you show here is a CMH 3K Bulb, not a 2K HPS.

Here you go:

Does that 5 or maybe 10% if i go too far of 780Nm means anything ? most of the HPS 2K power is in PAR range.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> I cut the pic cuz its very low peak after 730 nm, not worth even mentioning, as most of its strength a HPS bulb delivers within PAR range
> What you show here is a CMH 3K Bulb, not a 2K HPS.


HPS does the same thing. All HID lights have a huge IR spike around 820 nm. Fact.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

Cant find that spike with 2K bulb on google, they have a spike around 780 like the pic i posted yes, but its 5% of total output power.
Your bulb is a 3K bulb, even if they are close K rated, they are not the same.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

If you are saying that they dont show us the full spectrum map and in 820 Nm HPS 2K has a huge output spike, i would love to see this
New info for me

Also now i see in your 3K pic that Philips has almost non 800+ output compared to MAXPAR that look like that bulb is indeed wasting a good amount of power on IR heat


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> I cut the pic cuz its very low peak after 730 nm, not worth even mentioning, as most of its strength a HPS bulb delivers within PAR range
> What you show here is a CMH 3K Bulb, not a 2K HPS.
> 
> Here you go:
> ...


Your chart stops at 800nm. Facepalm.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> If you are saying that they dont show us the full spectrum map and in 820 Nm HPS 2K has a huge output spike, i would love to see this
> New info for me
> 
> Also now i see in your 3K pic that Philips has almost non 800+ output compared to MAXPAR that look like that bulb is indeed wasting a good amount of power on IR heat


Check page 16 of the attached document to see a spectrum chart that goes all the way up to 2450nm, and you will see a huge IR spike. Here's a cut and paste from the same document:

High Pressure Sodium Lamps: These are HID lamps containing a sodium-mercury amalgam and trace quantities of inert gas, such as xenon, to assist in the startup. An electric arc passing through the chamber excites the electrons on the sodium and mercury atoms, causing them to glow. These lamps produce a characteristic golden-orange light. Spectra were measured for three high pressure sodium (HPS) lamps.* The strongest emission line is from the set of sodium emissions at 819 nm (Figure 14).* This emission line is also present in the metal halide lamp spectra. Other strong emission lines occur at 569, 594, 1,140, 595, and 598 nm. There is a dense cluster of strong emission lines from 569 to 616 nm. In addition to the 819 and 1,140 nm lines, there are infrared emission lines at 767, 1,269, 1,846, 2,207, and 2,339 nm. The mean and standard deviation analysis found that the most variable emission line is at 594, followed by the emission lines at 595, 598, 582, 585, 584, 1,140 and 615 nm (Figure 15). Overall, the HPS spectra have less variability than the fluorescent and metal halide lamps.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

Just a lil info on panels,
i will compare them to COBs and why COBs are better then panels tomorrow.

When you have a panel thats rated 100K Lm (overall), but it covers a 4 x 4 in size, you cant make the claim that you hit the entire 4 X 4 or even a certain spot within its size with anything near 100K Lm, because the diodes are spread across the whole fixture and shed light to every spot on the canopy not just one spot (as opposed to HID mainly and COBs also), You can understand from this that adding up Lm in a QB or panel fixture can never apply in real life applications or to give any credit to this kind of claims, a 800w led panel fixture (like i have right now) will give avg umol of 900 to every section of the canopy within a 4 x 4 when driven to max output and at a height of 8 inch.

What does all this mean ? basically, you are getting 900 avg umol with more then 750 watt of electricity and not less heat then a HID 600, 
So far it all sounds nice, 900 umol at every corner of the canopy at all times ? hard to beat that !
The problem starts when you start to go deeper in the canopy, i have my 800w panel at 6-8 inch right now, but my buds are easy 15-20 inch long so my panel is actually further then 8 inch, only the tops get the 8 inch power, (and u see this mainly with QBs or panels, the tops look rather good and 2-3 inch below it starts to look like cabbage) 

Wonder why ? its because in terms of Lm output (with additive Lm count of nearby diodes), the diodes dont have enough power (Lm) to push those values (PAR) further down the canopy, its a no brainer, if at 8 inch you got X Lm then to measure penetration you need to apply same math like you measure PAR values from light to canopy, the thing is because there is a canopy in the way, its not like doing it with no obstruction.

So if at 8 inch i got 900 umol, at 16 inch i got 650 umol, and thats without nothing in the way ! so you can understand why penetration is so important and why the light diminish so fast when going through canopy. 
You can also understand by this, that even at 800w and 8 inch height i only get 900 umol ! and thats not just at the sides, its at the center aswell.

If i used a HID i will get lower values (PAR) at the sides and higher values at the center, how high you ask ? well at 8 inch height with 2 400w HPS you will get more then 3500 umol directly under it, only problem - HEAT.
The thing is, those 3500 umols are at a very localized spot (usually around 1 x 1), but with 2 of those you expand that to 2 x 2 coverage, so lets say we put this setup inside a 4 x 4, we cut the numbers in half, so we get something around 1000-1500 umol across the canopy (maybe more)
Sounds pretty much like the LEDs setup... arent we forgetting something ? 
Well, those 400w each (i say each because we cant add their Lm, just total it) has 55K Lm that comes from 1 source and goes directly into the 2 x 2 under it, pushing those PAR values way deeper then any lower intensity light can ever push while maintaining a higher intensity down the canopy.

You need to understand that a single light source (no matter HID or LED, well, LED is more efficient) that push high amount of Lm will always be superior to a single light source or many that push low amount of Lm.
This is the reason large commercial ops are putting 1000W HID 5-10 FT from canopy and still get decent results, and why commercial ops that use LEDs put them no more then 12 inch.

You also need to realise im talking about quality, not qty, as qty is much more easy target to reach, i saw the other day some dude on other site that got 600g from a 280w UFO inside a 4 X 8, but brother, i tell you, i wouldn't smoke that shit even if u pay me


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## f.r (Jun 2, 2022)

There are certainly companies making High powered units 1500w used for high bay lighting made from LED. Look at a company like agnetix LED they are doing 1500w water cooled units, used very high up. Growing style will dictate whether that is optimal, a lot of home growers in tents prefer bar style lighting or quantum boards because they don't have the ability to run high amounts of power from smaller points. and they change there grow style to accommodate the fact they aren't hitting the same PPF at floor level as they are at canopy.


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Check page 16 of the attached document to see a spectrum chart that goes all the way up to 2450nm, and you will see a huge IR spike. Here's a cut and paste from the same document:
> 
> High Pressure Sodium Lamps: These are HID lamps containing a sodium-mercury amalgam and trace quantities of inert gas, such as xenon, to assist in the startup. An electric arc passing through the chamber excites the electrons on the sodium and mercury atoms, causing them to glow. These lamps produce a characteristic golden-orange light. Spectra were measured for three high pressure sodium (HPS) lamps.* The strongest emission line is from the set of sodium emissions at 819 nm (Figure 14).* This emission line is also present in the metal halide lamp spectra. Other strong emission lines occur at 569, 594, 1,140, 595, and 598 nm. There is a dense cluster of strong emission lines from 569 to 616 nm. In addition to the 819 and 1,140 nm lines, there are infrared emission lines at 767, 1,269, 1,846, 2,207, and 2,339 nm. The mean and standard deviation analysis found that the most variable emission line is at 594, followed by the emission lines at 595, 598, 582, 585, 584, 1,140 and 615 nm (Figure 15). Overall, the HPS spectra have less variability than the fluorescent and metal halide lamps.



Thank you, But in the study it says MH bulbs, not HPS, nice editing 
However, "Other strong emission lines occur at 569, 594, 1,140, 595, and 598 nm" - PAR Range (Mostly)
"There is a dense cluster of strong emission lines from 569 to 616 nm" - Still Par Range
"The mean and standard deviation analysis found that the most variable emission line is at 594, followed by the emission lines at 595, 598, 582, 585, 584, 1,140 and 615 nm" - Still PAR Range

So HPS are Mostly PAR Range Bulbs with some emissions in IR and and past IR


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

f.r said:


> There are certainly companies making High powered units 1500w used for high bay lighting made from LED. Look at a company like agnetix LED they are doing 1500w water cooled units, used very high up. Growing style will dictate whether that is optimal, a lot of home growers in tents prefer bar style lighting or quantum boards because they don't have the ability to run high amounts of power from smaller points. and they change there grow style to accommodate the fact they aren't hitting the same PPF at floor level as they are at canopy.


Would love to see those hung up at HIDs heights, but it will be suicide in terms of quality.
Qty, well, thats the industry std so i wont be surprised if they do it.


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## f.r (Jun 2, 2022)

People say organic produces the best quality, the microbes poo helps so i dunno bout dat


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## Billy the Mountain (Jun 2, 2022)

f.r said:


> People say organic produces the best quality, the microbes poo helps so i dunno bout dat


Science says there's no difference to the plant between salts and organics


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## f.r (Jun 2, 2022)

Billy the Mountain said:


> Science says there's no difference to the plant between salts and organics


I was just being sarcastic lol this thread is so trolly thought i would add to it. Ain't no beating that genetic ceiling.


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## Billy the Mountain (Jun 2, 2022)

f.r said:


> I was just being sarcastic lol this thread is so trolly thought i would add to it. Ain't no beating that genetic ceiling.


Thank god!


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## snakedope (Jun 2, 2022)

Magnesium Sulfate is Magnesium Sulfate, No matter if it comes from a banana peel or straight as a Mineral (salt) from the ground
The thing is the medium that its in, you can give lets say chicken shit to your plants, but they will burn from that shit decomp in your soil, making the soil hotter as the process moves along. 
So altering the state of mediums and salts is a must when dealing with certain stuff
Btw, chicken and bird shit is the SHIT, gather some and put in a bucket of water, stirr and let sit for a couple of days, feed your plants with it, it wont burn them because the decomp heat already took place in the water.


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## f.r (Jun 2, 2022)

Nah bro the microbes make the terps! the fact that you don't know that is laughable, lumens and microbes run my home tents.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Thank you, But in the study it says MH bulbs, not HPS, nice editing
> However, "Other strong emission lines occur at 569, 594, 1,140, 595, and 598 nm" - PAR Range (Mostly)
> "There is a dense cluster of strong emission lines from 569 to 616 nm" - Still Par Range
> "The mean and standard deviation analysis found that the most variable emission line is at 594, followed by the emission lines at 595, 598, 582, 585, 584, 1,140 and 615 nm" - Still PAR Range
> ...


I didn't edit anything guy, now you are just straight up lying. Here's screenshots to prove my case.




*"The strongest emission line is from the set of sodium emissions at 819 nm (Figure 14).* "


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Magnesium Sulfate is Magnesium Sulfate, No matter if it comes from a banana peel or straight as a Mineral (salt) from the ground
> The thing is the medium that its in, you can give lets say chicken shit to your plants, but they will burn from that shit decomp in your soil, making the soil hotter as the process moves along.
> So altering the state of mediums and salts is a must when dealing with certain stuff
> Btw, chicken and bird shit is the SHIT, gather some and put in a bucket of water, stirr and let sit for a couple of days, feed your plants with it, it wont burn them because the decomp heat already took place in the water.


It is highly unlikely that you will create magnesium sulfate from a decayed banana peel. You may get elemental Magnesium and elemental Sulphur, once the process is completed, but you aren't going to get Magnesium Sulfate.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 2, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Would love to see those hung up at HIDs heights, but it will be suicide in terms of quality.
> Qty, well, thats the industry std so i wont be surprised if they do it.


I've got some LED fixtures which use high powered diodes. I can hang them the same height as a 600watt HPS. Now what?


----------



## Horselover fat (Jun 3, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> I've got some LED fixtures which use high powered diodes. I can hang them the same height as a 600watt HPS. Now what?


Doesn't matter if they are high, medium or low power diodes. What matters is the size of the light cone. A large led fixture spills a lot of light and you get losses. It isn't a big deal, because the lights are so close to the tops and often they are in tents. You will have signicant losses if you take away the walls and raise your light higher. The light coming from spread out leds is in no way less energetic, but more wall losses means they shouldn't be raised too high. Add a good reflector or lenses to the led fixture and you can raise it high up, because you made the light cone smaller and reduced spillage. 

Op's logic says two 1kw hps are no more light than one. Doesn't make much sense.


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> It is highly unlikely that you will create magnesium sulfate from a decayed banana peel. You may get elemental Magnesium and elemental Sulphur, once the process is completed, but you aren't going to get Magnesium Sulfate.


You are right, I was trying to explain the basics of it, not say you will x outta y 

Im not lying, on page 14 it says 4 MH bulbs are tested and are similar to HPS, I will read the whole study when I can, my Adobe is crashing every 2 min on my win XP lol

Thank you again for sharing this info you can never learn too much


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Horselover fat said:


> Doesn't matter if they are high, medium or low power diodes. What matters is the size of the light cone. A large led fixture spills a lot of light and you get losses. It isn't a big deal, because the lights are so close to the tops and often they are in tents. You will have signicant losses if you take away the walls and raise your light higher. The light coming from spread out leds is in no way less energetic, but more wall losses means they shouldn't be raised too high. Add a good reflector or lenses to the led fixture and you can raise it high up, because you made the light cone smaller and reduced spillage.
> 
> Op's logic says two 1kw hps are no more light than one. Doesn't make much sense.


Even with the strongest diodes (Currently available, not future stronger ones) and the best lenses you can’t put them at those heights, the Lm is not enough to reach effectively to these distances, I welcome you to try, but reality suggest it will not be worth the time and money
Like I said before, there is a company that sells 5000w led panels that claim 5000umol, and if you understand anything from this thread you will understand that even the 5000w fixture can’t be more then 12 inch from canopy.. well they can and will grow but at what cost of quality ? 
People take words too hard, like they are black and white, I’m not saying your buds won’t grow at all at that heigh (Several FT away) and that you won’t have trichome, I’m saying you will have both, just at a very low level
Now to the avg grower that needs to balance qty with quality it’s very hard, and people go to the route that work best for them, but who is to say it can’t be better then the best ?


----------



## Kassiopeija (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> the Lm is not enough to reach effectively to these distances





snakedope said:


> from this thread you will understand that even the 5000w fixture can’t be more then 12 inch from canopy


I see you keep trolling Mars Hydro
What an old-school patriot


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> I see you keep trolling Mars Hydro
> What an old-school patriot


No, I share my thoughts and knowledge with other people so they can see beyond the lies and blurring, trolling.. well, so be it


----------



## Kassiopeija (Jun 3, 2022)

So what are the facts?
If we compare your 4*250W HPS vs that 780w LED.
How is the raw photon output PPF each second?


----------



## lusidghost (Jun 3, 2022)

It feels a little like Fight Club in here all of the sudden.


----------



## bk78 (Jun 3, 2022)

lusidghost said:


> It feels a little like Fight Club in here all of the sudden.


Only 1 can log in at once


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

lusidghost said:


> It feels a little like Fight Club in here all of the sudden.


Nah we are all good 

Kassiopeija - both science and reality say that the 4 x 250 will do a much much better job if you can handle the heat,
What are the terms for a “better job” well that is grower subjective, as some will know the difference between veg times and high quality flower better then others, some will have more branches at the same time some will have more node length (making them same height but different characteristics) 
So I keep saying this, maybe veg the difference is not worth mentioning, that will require more testing and comparing Between the two, not as standalone testing

But in flower it’s a no brainier, if you accept the theory that trichome are a defensive measure of the plant, you must be able to find the source for it in our own world

And it’s very simple
Our world is based on 1 high intensity light
THAT IS FACT
The other thing is that the strongest MJ is found in the tropics, as the intensity there is beyond most places in our realm

So you can keep believing it’s bugs or it’s uv or Santa Claus, it’s all of them ! 
but at the end the most high qty thing that is found in the tropics is - high intensity sun with uv aswell and bugs as the eyes can see

Indoor doesn’t have bugs, also doesn’t have uv like the tropics, not until recent years that is
And still you grow some crazy ass stuff... how can that be.. Asking for a friend 

PS, I keep repeating it, LED is better if 1 diode can push very high Lm count, way better then any HID, but they still don’t push enough, maybe some day.


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Also, according to the LED theory, if I put 5 x 5000w HID I have in my tent 750K Lm ! Nope haha you have 150K under each maybe if u can put them close enough and a helpful amount of side lightening but that’s about it.


----------



## Kassiopeija (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Nah we are all good
> 
> Kassiopeija - both science and reality say that the 4 x 250 will do a much much better job if you can handle the heat,
> What are the terms for a “better job” well that is grower subjective, as some will know the difference between veg times and high quality flower better then others, some will have more branches at the same time some will have more node length (making them same height but different characteristics)
> ...


Is there an echo in there?

>>Fixture photon efficacy PLEASE <<


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> Is there an echo in there?
> 
> >>Fixture photon efficacy PLEASE <<


You are echoing yourself, what does it matter the efficacy of a photon in the PAR range If your plant can’t even see it ? 
Thats the whole problem.
Look up google for 600 hps ppfd chart and see for yourself the data. 
you will see that no LED (at the moment) can push those numbers, at those heights, and even if so, and u get good number of PAR from a certain height with them, it still don’t matter because all you prove is that the photons are more efficient in the PAR spectrum but not driven more intense.


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

A PAR reading although sounds sexy is just checking the quality of a spectrum, and if a light source is giving its light in the PAR range and how much in that range
It does not measure intensity ! 
Hence there are two different equations here. 
And they will always lead to the same conclusion, HID will bud decent from massive heights, because even though PAR readings are low, the actual PAR and other waves hid produce will make it to the plants and are driven with 150K intensity, so it makes up for lack of PAR in enabling the plant to see any light at all opposed to the same setup with LEDs that only has 300 Lm, the plants will barley know they are there.


----------



## Billy the Mountain (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Also, according to the LED theory, if I put 5 x 5000w HID I have in my tent 750K Lm ! Nope haha you have 150K under each maybe if u can put them close enough and a helpful amount of side lightening but that’s about it.





snakedope said:


> A PAR reading although sounds sexy is just checking the quality of a spectrum, and if a light source is giving its light in the PAR range and how much in that range
> It does not measure intensity !
> Hence there are two different equations here.
> And they will always lead to the same conclusion, HID will bud decent from massive heights, because even though PAR readings are low, the actual PAR and other waves hid produce will make it to the plants and are driven with 150K intensity, so it makes up for lack of PAR in enabling the plant to see any light at all opposed to the same setup with LEDs that only has 300 Lm, the plants will barley know they are there.


It seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding of spectrum, penetration, efficiency, and PAR

LEDs have both a superior spectrum and roughly double the mmol/watt than an HID light

Welcome to 2022!


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Billy the Mountain said:


> It seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding of spectrum, penetration, efficiency, and PAR
> 
> LEDs have both a superior spectrum and roughly double the mmol/watt than an HID light
> 
> Welcome to 2022!


Thank you, but don’t confuse things,LEDs are more efficient at making light then HID, but are still very small in voltage and Lm output,
So, welcome to 2022, nothing has changed drastically.


----------



## Kassiopeija (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> what does it matter the efficacy of a photon in the PAR range If your plant can’t even see it ?


----------



## Billy the Mountain (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Thank you, but don’t confuse things,LEDs are more efficient at making light then HID, but are still very small in voltage and Lm output,
> So, welcome to 2022, nothing has changed drastically.


You're factually wrong and a bit delusional

Perhaps you have some factual data to back your erroneous assertions?

Just because you keep repeating the same bullshit, doesn't make it true


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Well I it’s LEDs data, and HID data
Look it up if it perks your brain
I didn’t make this stuff up
It’s nice that you laugh and say I don’t understand basic light concepts lol 

But never counter what I say with nothing but horses pics and smiling faces
So I will continue educating the ones who are willing to learn basic concepts of light and are not subjected to pre biased information or people who spend a lot of money and are looking to justify their investment lol
I’m not against anybody, just showing data and facts. 
if you are too lazy to check it that’s your thing and I can respect that, not everyone has the time and desire to go beyond what THEY qualify as best for them

You are welcome to add or share or just learn.


----------



## bk78 (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> , i gave my word that u will see pics from this grow and only time (few days) will tell.



Tomorrow is the big reveal?


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


>


You still don’t understand basic light concepts and it’s ok, you think that if a certain plant needs a certain wave length and u give It to him just in low or high intensities That there is no difference lol
Please put your led panel at 5 ft from canopy and get back to us with results lol


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## lusidghost (Jun 3, 2022)

I don't really understand basic light concepts. What causes light stress to plants under LEDs? I'm also not even sure of what you and your sock's argument is. Terpenes and THC levels are high. Yields about the same. What exactly is lacking?


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

bk78 said:


> Tomorrow is the big reveal?


Yeah I hope they are ready I didn’t visit them for a while as this grow is not in my location and is pretty far away from me at the moment
I kinda know already they will be low shelf grade and it’s ok I’m not biased on nothing and don’t really care I do it for the fun and smoke of it, next round gonna go back to the 3 x 600 or 4 x 400 in that spread with cool hoods (yeah yeah glass and perfect operating temp of bulb ok ok  ) 
But heat management is more important.

lusidghost - I don’t really, my bet it’s just that LED lights are synthetic lights, not working according to nature’s bulb, the sun
So maybe plants just don’t love LEDs.. 
Maybe they emit something else something extra to the light that causes this 
I’m not expert on LED burning issues although I have seen it happen most often with LEDs

To say it’s the intensity of the light ? No.. not logical, people put 150k Lm beasts near their plants and nothingis out of the ordinary
So I won’t bet on too much light being the problem, maybe the source is just toxic
Just my thoughts, don’t take it as fact please


----------



## lusidghost (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Please put your led panel at 5 ft from canopy and get back to us with results lol


Why would you do that? My Spectrum King sk600 has a recommendation of 24" to 36". Right now my plants are about a foot beneath it and I had to turn the light way down. That sucks.


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## lusidghost (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Yeah I hope they are ready I didn’t visit them for a while as this grow is not in my location and is pretty far away from me at the moment
> I kinda know already they will be low shelf grade and it’s ok I’m not biased on nothing and don’t really care I do it for the fun and smoke of it, next round gonna go back to the 3 x 600 or 4 x 400 in that spread with cool hoods (yeah yeah glass and perfect operating temp of bulb ok ok  )
> But heat management is more important.
> 
> ...


I can't tell of you're being facetious due to your sovereign citizen style of posting.


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

I’m not from the States, although I am very fluent in English, not from UK also, more south then that, way more 

at 36 inches you had to turn down your lights ? You have other problems, light intensity is not one of them.


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> You still don’t understand basic light concepts and it’s ok, you think that if a certain plant needs a certain wave length and u give It to him just in low or high intensities That there is no difference lol
> Please put your led panel at 5 ft from canopy and get back to us with results lol


what has my grows hardware to do with the rhetorical questions or the way you amuse me with your mumbo-jumbo trolling?

0.

You are so delusional you cannot even recognize a rhetorical question.
And got it all wrong.
And jump from 1 foot to the other grasping at straws.

So the LED photons aren't seen by the plant but the HIDs are?
And that you say after got all the full SPD presented by @PJ Diaz ?

You are just making these things up.

Most likely one of your friends grows something and you'll visit him on weekend to buy something. Excuses oh it's too dangerous to upload pics. I'd loose 15-20k € if the blue meanies see the above in real. 
And it's not really practical to have an indoor grow running far, far away. You don't sound smart nor experienced enough to run fully automated.


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## lusidghost (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> I’m not from the States, although I am very fluent in English, not from UK also, more south then that, way more
> 
> at 36 inches you had to turn down your lights ? You have other problems, light intensity is not one of them.


No. My plants are about foot beneath the light. The manufacturer's recommendation is 2 to 3 feet. The light was built to mimic an HPS, where the diodes are all packed into a small square instead of being spread out like modern LED lights. So now the outer perimeter isn't getting enough light, and that's not cool.


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## lusidghost (Jun 3, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> what has my grows hardware to do with the rhetorical questions or the way you amuse me with your mumbo-jumbo trolling?


What are you doing? This is just silly.


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

here’s my take,
Larger initial light power from single source penetrates further away from source due to intensity.
Smaller initial light power from multiple sources bypass more obstacles due to greater angles of incidence.

yes a higher intensity source will “push“ through the canopy to reach a desired depth

but also

more lower intensity sources will reach said depth by coming from more angles and bypassing canopy obstructions.

there’ll allways be a limit though. This is down to the grower to find what light at what height works best for a given canopy shape.

my next run will be 3 900ppf ish qbs with 2 900ppf ish hps in between them. Raised all the way up to the top of the tent.
Intensity isn’t the be all and end all IME, i want light coming from lots of angles.


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> So the LED photons aren't seen by the plant but the HIDs are?
> And that you say after got all the full SPD presented by @PJ Diaz ?
> 
> You are just making these things up.


You clearly don’t read, and that’s fine
You say the same things, I’m giving u an answer but you still chose to ignore it, claiming PAR is the only thing that matters but you are forgetting that the intensity that PAR is 
being pushed is more important.

So yes, again, read my posts, a 150k Lm single light source, although is low on par reading compared to LED, will still make plants see his PAR values better because it has more intensity ! What are you not following here ?
Nobody was talking about the quality of LED PAR compared to HID PAR ! LED rule in that department no argues on that !
But lacked the strength to deliver this perfect PAR to your plants !
Today, not in tomorrow’s fictional world, HID being a single light source push more light ! Rather it be better spectrum or worse, still way better strength then the most powerful led diodes so
Also DJ Piaz just showed that a HPS although giving away some intensity to outta PAR spectrums is still mainly focused on PAR range !!
So simple..


----------



## lusidghost (Jun 3, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> here’s my take,
> Larger initial light power from single source penetrates further away from source due to intensity.
> Smaller initial light power from multiple sources bypass more obstacles due to greater angles of incidence.
> 
> ...


The Spectrum King that I mentioned had a 90 reflector that pushed the recommendation to somewhere around 4 or 5 feet.


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> here’s my take,
> Larger initial light power from single source penetrates further away from source due to intensity.
> Smaller initial light power from multiple sources bypass more obstacles due to greater angles of incidence.
> 
> ...


You are also right but keep forgetting that it doesn’t matter at which angle you put your bulbs or diodes, if they don’t have strength it won’t reach properly unless positioned in the right height and even then if u read my earlier posts it won’t matter as now the 300 Lm needs to go through canopy which make it only worse for penetration.


----------



## Billy the Mountain (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> You are also right but keep forgetting that it doesn’t matter at which angle you put your bulbs or diodes, if they don’t have strength it won’t reach properly unless positioned in the right height and even then if u read my earlier posts it won’t matter as now the 300 Lm needs to go through canopy which make it only worse for penetration.


You're simply clueless


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> Most likely one of your friends grows something and you'll visit him on weekend to buy something. Excuses oh it's too dangerous to upload pics. I'd loose 15-20k € if the blue meanies see the above in real.
> And it's not really practical to have an indoor grow running far, far away. You don't sound smart nor experienced enough to run fully automated.


Lucky I have good friends, but if your judging who’s to know the truth, you don’t even know me but speculation is already brewing in your head lol


Billy the Mountain said:


> You're simply clueless
> 
> View attachment 5143707


Wow, full of knowledge post
Respect homie.


----------



## lusidghost (Jun 3, 2022)

This thread is clown shoes.


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> You are also right but keep forgetting that it doesn’t matter at which angle you put your bulbs or diodes, if they don’t have strength it won’t reach properly unless positioned in the right height and even then if u read my earlier posts it won’t matter as now the 300 Lm needs to go through canopy which make it only worse for penetration.


I feel like you’re putting across a very black and white argument when really it’s not that simple.
I can understand because ur backed into a corner and you’re trying to get ur point across, trust me, I’m in the corner a lot, I feel you. You make some valid points.

However

attenuation is loss, whether it be due to scattering of photons following the inverse square law or due to reflections from obstructions.

a higher wattage source (yes wattage, not lm par ppf) of light power hitting an obstruction will “push through” an obstruction (leaves) and retain a higher value when compared to a lower wattage source.

buuuut when we spread out multiple lower wattage sources that can travel past said obstructionthen we loose less power through obstruction and reach said point with the same value.

Like I said earlier it comes down to the grower making the right choice for their space and canopy shape and/or density.

I’m not saying one source is better than another, that’s for each individual to decide which is better for them. I use both And for good reason.

no one’s saying a luxx is gonna grow a dense tall bush as well as a 1000w de with a focused reflector, or that a 1000w is gonna grow a flat canopy full of 40cm tops corner to corner uniformly. There’s different horses for different courses. The importance is knowing how the light from differwnt fixtures Will behave in YOUR individual set up


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Finally, some words of wisdom and logic
Thank you brother, I agree on that, you can adjust always.

“buuuut when we spread out multiple lower wattage sources that can travel past said obstructionthen we loose less power through obstruction and reach said point with the same value.”

Why do you think they travel past the obstruction and lose less power ? You say one thing then the opposite, if a high intensity light source like u said is able to penetrate more effectively without losing too much power (again your words, which I totally agree)
What makes you think that putting a less intensity light source, no matter at what location will penetrate deeper without losing much strength ? 
I can understand this if I put like I said 4 x 400 then it will work because a 400 hid is still super strong at the right height and even above that.


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Finally, some words of wisdom and logic
> Thank you brother, I agree on that, you can adjust always.
> 
> “buuuut when we spread out multiple lower wattage sources that can travel past said obstructionthen we loose less power through obstruction and reach said point with the same value.”
> ...


Because the multiple source fixture sends light away from each diode, meaning there are diodes that send light on a different angle,EDIT!!!(the diodes don’t send light on a different angle, the light is recieved by the plant at a different angle due to the spacing of sources) which is not impeded by obstruction.

The leaves directly under the hps obstruct the light travelling to said point, however the light from another angle might not have to pass through those leaves, or it might, in which case there’s a thousand other diodes sending light from another angle that will reach said point unobstructed.


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

I get that what you are saying and you are indeed very right, 
All I’m saying Is the concept sound good on paper, but in reality even with 300 opposing angles which some of them might or might not hit the canopy straight from above or the sides of the buds is not adding much credit to their initial output, which is low to begin with.
So yeah your concept is spot on but lacks the proper 300 opposing high intensity lights to go along with it. they are still too low output to use these concepts and light angles in a proper way, unless people want their plants to hug theIt fixtures sort of speak

LEDs, because of this, have a hard time when being confronted with long distances and canopy depth
Still not a very good solution although in the future when they stick much higher voltage diodes in their fixtures I think we will see massive improvements.


----------



## Kassiopeija (Jun 3, 2022)

lol 11 pages on an ad-thread, this is artificially purposefully staged trolling to bring clicks into a dead forum to show off before the money givers. brilliant in that in fools/tricks the core members to bring pro-arguments for LED for one of the worst LED company that there is.

fulltrolling at it best/worst


----------



## Kassiopeija (Jun 3, 2022)

yap, definitely an echo



snakedope said:


> but in reality





snakedope said:


> Reality says otherwise





snakedope said:


> but reality shows





snakedope said:


> Reality says otherwise





snakedope said:


> sorry i have to believe reality.





snakedope said:


> as reality shows us otherwise





snakedope said:


> i rather to stick to reality.





snakedope said:


> because its colliding with reality





snakedope said:


> but in reality





snakedope said:


> just reality





snakedope said:


> both science and reality say





snakedope said:


> but reality suggest it will not be worth


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> lol 11 pages on an ad-thread, this is artificially purposefully staged trolling to bring clicks into a dead forum to show off before the money givers. brilliant in that in fools/tricks the core members to bring pro-arguments for LED for one of the worst LED company that there is.
> 
> fulltrolling at it best/worst




Huh lol, ran out of arguments I guess
Resorting to bashing the author is always nice though.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> You are right, I was trying to explain the basics of it, not say you will x outta y
> 
> Im not lying, on page 14 it says 4 MH bulbs are tested and are similar to HPS, I will read the whole study when I can, my Adobe is crashing every 2 min on my win XP lol
> 
> Thank you again for sharing this info you can never learn too much


I directed you to page 16, which talks about HPS lights, but somehow you decided to focus on page 14, which talks about MH lights. You seem disfunctional at best.

Again, I'll point out this quote: "The strongest emission line is from the set of sodium emissions at 819 nm (Figure 14)."

I can't wait to see the buds you plan to post under HPS lamps, because I guarantee that I can show you better buds I've grown under LED.

Also you keep saying 150k lumen output for a 600w HPS, but those lamps generally top out at 95k lumens. You sure aren't a math wiz, are you?


----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

When you have more info to donate to this thread (and I don’t care who the op is, I don’t get hung up on irrelevant things such as this like you)
I welcome you to share with us 

So far you rant a lot, with lil sharing of thoughts or info.

Not that I’m expecting non don’t get me wrong
But please stay at the subject at hand as it makes time on this forum worthwhile 
I’m good at writing my own msgs you don’t need to quote me sticking to reality i think I made it clear that I live in it, some people don’t and that’s cool by me.
although I’m flattered Btw

Also, I don’t see where my argument is Pro LED ? And in anyway towards the Op which happens to be Mars
Don’t really care about mars or any other company, 
More people wanna share their thoughts and ideas are welcome !


----------



## bk78 (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> bashing



Pot, kettle?





snakedope said:


> DJ Piaz


----------



## bk78 (Jun 3, 2022)




----------



## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> I directed you to page 16, which talks about HPS lights, but somehow you decided to focus on page 14, which talks about MH lights. You seem disfunctional at best.
> 
> Again, I'll point out this quote: "The strongest emission line is from the set of sodium emissions at 819 nm (Figure 14)."
> 
> ...


I’m talking about the 1000w
I saw page 16, saw that high spike in 820nm
I didn’t say you are wrong
I’m saying that it’s still have lots of power on par range. 
When they will make large enough diodes (in terms of Lm to watt) they will win HID no doubt
I’m actually agreeing with u all along
But you are not getting my point, that even though some emissions are not in par range, doesn’t mean that ones that are in par range don’t get further pushed by the rest of the bulbs power and in the case of a 600 or 1000 it’s a lot of power (again in theory because it’s spread subjected in our case)
much more then led currently have
That’s it.
When they make high Lm diodes I assure u I will be the first to buy them.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> I’m talking about the 1000w
> I saw page 16, saw that high spike in 820nm
> I didn’t say you are wrong
> I’m saying that it’s still have lots of power on par range.
> ...


Dude, you've been referencing 600watt HPS lamps all along, but now you're talking about 1k's? Come on man.

Here's a question for you.. Why are lower buds sometimes more frosty than the buds on top, if intensity is what drives frost? 

In reality what makes buds frostier is genetics combined with the overall health of the plant. I've studied this, I'm not just guessing like you are.


----------



## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> I get that what you are saying and you are indeed very right,
> All I’m saying Is the concept sound good on paper, but in reality even with 300 opposing angles which some of them might or might not hit the canopy straight from above or the sides of the buds is not adding much credit to their initial output, which is low to begin with.
> So yeah your concept is spot on but lacks the proper 300 opposing high intensity lights to go along with it. they are still too low output to use these concepts and light angles in a proper way, unless people want their plants to hug theIt fixtures sort of speak
> 
> ...



i feel as if maybe you don’t have experience with different led tech apart from maybe the ones ur using now. Let me break abit down for you see if we can find some common ground on which to agree.

Imagine each of these scenarios in a 1.5x1.5m tent

Hopefully we can both ignore infra red radiation for the sake of this chat. 

*1 x de 1000w hid*
Needs to be hung at around 1m from canopy depending on reflector for 1 main reason uniformity.
This light will produce the highest output per source (imagine integrated sphere) which has the potential to penetrate the furthest if unobstructed
If hung closer to canopy the light will not reach the corners at the intensity we desire and we will have too great a hot spot in the centre. On the flip side depending on our personal circumstances and the dimensions of our space, this may be a good thing. We might want space to work, space to spray plants without risk of bursting a bulb, space for air to move or for other equipment to be placed around the edges of our grow, the list goes on

*4 x se 250w hid*
IME needs to be about 20cm from canopy depending on reflector. Lacks the initial output at source vs the 1000 but makes up for it cos it’s placed closer to the canopy. Multiple lamps mean multiple angles of incidence which means otherwise shaded budsites under a 1000 are lit by unobstructed light coming from more angles thanks to the 4 lamp set up. Also they will light the canopy more uniformly than the 1000 which goes without Saying. However the value at 1m away from the lamp will be significantly lower than the value at same distance from a 1000

*9 x 70w cob*
Now we need to take into account the lens and angle of light distribution (the cone), because of this most of these are designed to be hung higher than most other leds, because they behave kind of like a single source (not technically though), these leds are probably the closest comparison to traditional hid lighting. But because there are more sources they light the canopy more uniformly and also the plants will benefit (to a lesser extent than the 4 250s due to the light cone) from the multiple angles of incidence.

*2 x 315w quantum board fixtures *
These lights can be hung closer than the cobs and this light will spread out many lower power sources over a greater area. Increasing the number of angles of incidence, thus increasing the ammount of photons that hit said bud, branch, leaf whatever vs if all photons came from same source and hit various obstacles on route.

*1 x 630w strip/rail type fixture*
Now these fixtures usually have the lowest output per source OR the same as a qb but more spread out. The aim of these fixtures is to provide the ultimate uniformity of light intensity across a 2d plane, this means they need to be placed rather close to the canopy to maintain the same intensity at the top of canopy. And because their diodes are spread much further apart the plant can benefit from photons passing more obstacles on their way to said point instead of having to “push through” vegetation.

please bare in mind that the fixtures input wattage may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer country To country and in no way do I stand behind the numbers as a rule of thumb, we can’t compare dimlux with phtontek or Mars with agentIx here.

hopefully we can find some ground on which all of us can agree


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 3, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> i feel as if maybe you don’t have experience with different led tech apart from maybe the ones ur using now. Let me break abit down for you see if we can find some common ground on which to agree.
> 
> Imagine each of these scenarios in a 1.5x1.5m tent
> 
> ...


Another variation to that would be 4 x 150w HLG QB 96 v2's, which use high powered diodes packed into a small 3"x3" footprint.









QB96 Elite V2 Engine


QB96 Elite V2 is a white LED Board with boosted red spectrum. Each Board is powered by 64 high power white LED, 16 630nm Red LED and 16 660nm Deep Red LED.




horticulturelightinggroup.com


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Dude, you've been referencing 600watt HPS lamps all along, but now you're talking about 1k's? Come on man.
> 
> Here's a question for you.. Why are lower buds sometimes more frosty than the buds on top, if intensity is what drives frost?
> 
> In reality what makes buds frostier is genetics combined with the overall health of the plant. I've studied this, I'm not just guessing like you are.


Heat, one of the main reasons for that.
I’m not guessing my man, be sure of that.
And I know it sounds harsh, but I am willing to bet 90% of LEDs grows are less potent and less potential overall vs a greater Intensity light source 
You just see it everywhere.
My grow is the 1st place I saw it and I admit it, I didn’t buy the panel so it’s easy for me to admit it haha


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Heat, one of the main reasons for that.
> I’m not guessing my man, be sure of that.
> And I know it sounds harsh, but I am willing to bet 90% of LEDs grows are less potent and less potential overall vs a greater Intensity light source
> You just see it everywhere.
> My grow is the 1st place I saw it and I admit it, I didn’t buy the panel so it’s easy for me to admit it haha


Heat? I've seen the same effect on both HID (radiant IR heat) and LED (no radiant IR) grows. It's not heat, you are just guessing.


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Another variation to that would be 4 x 150w HLG QB 96 v2's, which use high powered diodes packed into a small 3"x3" footprint.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes exactly my point


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Heat? I've seen the same effect on both HID (radiant IR heat) and LED (no radiant IR) grows. It's not heat, you are just guessing.


Watts are watts haha


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> Yes exactly my point


Less photons hitting said point unobstructed but more intensity to make up for “pushing through” vegetation


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

It’s also important to note the specific properties of different wavelengths makes a huge difference. A big flaw in the blurple movement was not the intensity or configuration of the diodes but the lack of green light.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 3, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> Watts are watts haha


Sure, but with HID lighting there is more heat at the top of the canopy vs further into the canopy, due to the radiant IR heat, so perhaps if that was the only incidence then his arguement might have some merit. However with LED lighting, the heat is generally diffused evenly throughout the canopy, so his logic falls short.


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Sure, but with HID lighting there is more heat at the top of the canopy vs further into the canopy, due to the radiant IR heat, so perhaps if that was the only incidence then his arguement might have some merit. However with LED lighting, the heat is generally diffused evenly throughout the canopy, so his logic falls short.


Oh yes mate I agreed with you lol sorry if it came across the opposite way


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Sure, but with HID lighting there is more heat at the top of the canopy vs further into the canopy, due to the radiant IR heat, so perhaps if that was the only incidence then his arguement might have some merit. However with LED lighting, the heat is generally diffused evenly throughout the canopy, so his logic falls short.


Generally lol
So I guess you take LEDs growers as perfect man that never over heat their canopy lol
My 800w panel push as much heat as my 600 HPS
You try to legitimise your claims In relying on people ability to maintain good heat while in fact many burn their plants many times including me.
If u compare a 90w led in terms of heat then ok bro you are right

Less trichomein higher canopy’s is 99% over heating problem
Prove me otherwise 
Genetics ? You make me laugh really
But I won’t put a laughing smiley on ur posts like BK78


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## Billy the Mountain (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> My 800w panel push as much heat as my 600 HPS


No, it generates 33% more heat


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

17,000 btu a/c inside the 4x8, can barley keep up in hot summer days. 
This panel gets hot, no less then a 600 hps bulb. 
Most of the game in growing is Heat management, some genetics will take heat better then others, but as a rule heat will demolish your results, and demolish them the fastest where it is most present - the canopy.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Generally lol
> So I guess you take LEDs growers as perfect man that never over heat their canopy lol
> My 800w panel push as much heat as my 600 HPS
> You try to legitimise your claims In relying on people ability to maintain good heat while in fact many burn their plants many times including me.
> ...


"Prove me otherwise"? LOL. You want me to disprove something which you haven't shown any evdence to support yourself? Get the fuck outta here.

Your 800w LED will "push" 682 more BTU's than your 600w HPS will. The difference is how they will "push" that heat. The LED will be primatly emitting convective heat, whereas the HPS will be primarily radiant heat (graphically observable via that huge IR spike at 820nm). Because of these facts of physica, the HID will heat up the leaf surface temp at the top of the canopy much more than it will innercanopy. LED on the other hand will heat the leaves of the canopy more evenly (and less efficiently), compared to HPS, due to it's lack of IR radiation.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> This panel gets hot, no less then a 600 hps bulb.


BS. Put your hand on the panel for as long as you can without burining yourself. Now grap the lit HPS bulb for the same amount of time. Then go to the hospitle to be treated for burns. You are just spouting nonesense at this point (you really have been all along).


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

I always get drawn into these debates lol, I can never tell if it’s someone who is trolling with an agenda (which I’ve came across as in the past) or someone legitimately trying to further the cause and debate with their peers.
I didn’t even know this was a Mars thread or I wud of never posted haha (NAUGHTY MARS!!! Haha lying to us 10 years ago about the blurples!!!) 
It’s actually nice to see Mars making some decent entry line fixtures these days. It’s crazy in terms of user friendliness for the newbie, how much better hps was than blurple, and how much better full spec white lights these days are compared to hps.

I have to agree with @snakedope though on this. Imagine the future we’re about to realise with led!

Hid plateaued decades ago really, only 400v de, and advancements in ceramic tubes pushed the boat after that.
Led on the other hand is far from mature tech, there’s still so much room for improvement, and especially with the work being done in phosphor luminescence, it’s staggering to even wonder where this could go.

We’re probably now looking at some of the first lights that will be used to grow plants to sustain life in space. The agentix liquid cooled lighting certainly has a lot of potential when I think about heat recovery and how we may utilize that.


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> BS. Put your hand on the panel for as long as you can without burining yourself. Now grap the lit HPS bulb for the same amount of time. Then go to the hospitle to be treated for burns. You are just spouting nonesense at this point (you really have been all along).


I dont care how they push it, stop talking to me in ON PAPER terms and start talking about real life
IN real life, my tent and canopy is heated under the panel just like a 600w will heat it, no one told you to grab the bulb
you are too clingy on words, dont understand the full meaning of them.
I said at the beginning that ONLY IF U MANAGE THE HEAT
So stop talking to me about how much heat a HPS bulb put out as it irrelevant to a good grower who knows how to manage that heat !!
If you dont know, you will have less trichomes on your tops, this is a fact, no need fancy words to explain why heat destroys trichomes, heat from anything ! from IR heat to bad growers with Cool as snow led fixtures that push less heat in comparison but heat the the whole tent very much like any other light source at this high wattage
Once you hit that over the line heat point, there is no going back, you lost your frost and the game, and it dosent matter HPS or LED.


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

And lower frost at canopy then at lower bud sites is not Genetics !
you need to get your story straight or at least show some info on this claim.


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> I always get drawn into these debates lol, I can never tell if it’s someone who is trolling with an agenda (which I’ve came across as in the past) or someone legitimately trying to further the cause and debate with their peers.
> I didn’t even know this was a Mars thread or I wud of never posted haha (NAUGHTY MARS!!! Haha lying to us 10 years ago about the blurples!!!)
> It’s actually nice to see Mars making some decent entry line fixtures these days. It’s crazy in terms of user friendliness for the newbie, how much better hps was than blurple, and how much better full spec white lights these days are compared to hps.


They are certainly not better, not for flowering MJ, not for now.
They will grow plants, as all lights will even the smallest Lm light, They will also grow trichomes, but have no "Kick" when it comes to producing them massively or in anyway compared to HID, both science and reality support this claim.
But again, im talking about today, the future looks bright for this tech in terms of power and spectrum, even more then CMH
I just personally hate LEDs because i know they are very toxic to DNA and our Eyes, thats why they are pushing them all over the world and in any segment of private life or business.
I wish that LED makers do realize in the near future that one cant go without the other, a perfect spectrum cant go without a matching intensity
A perfect trichome production cant go without both, not just one.
This situation portrays our actual nature, the sun, perfect spectrum with very high intensity which is what we all should strive for.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> I dont care how they push it, stop talking to me in ON PAPER terms and start talking about real life
> IN real life, my tent and canopy is heated under the panel just like a 600w will heat it


Actucally that's not true. I've measured leaf surface temps under LED and also under various types of HID (including HPS). The leaf surface temp is always a few degrees higher under HID than it is under LED. The reason for this is obvious, it's due to the IR heat which is thrown by HID lighting. I mean really, this is basic stuff.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> And lower frost at canopy then at lower bud sites is not Genetics !
> you need to get your story straight or at least show some info on this claim.


I didn't suggest that was due to genetics, you misread me. I suggested that increased frost in general is related to genetics and overall health of the plant.


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## bk78 (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> 17,000 btu a/c inside the 4x8, can barley keep up in hot summer days.
> This panel gets hot, no less then a 600 hps bulb.
> Most of the game in growing is Heat management, some genetics will take heat better then others, but as a rule heat will demolish your results, and demolish them the fastest where it is most present - the canopy.


800w in a 4x8 is your issue. No wonder you can’t grow donkey dicks covered in frost like the rest of us.


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Basic stuff indeed, still, good heat management will resolve this issue.


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## hillbill (Jun 3, 2022)

“My Weed’s too strong, and I’m afraid of my Hash.”……….LED Grower.


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

bk78 said:


> 800w in a 4x8 is your issue. No wonder you can’t grow donkey dicks covered in frost like the rest of us.


2 X 800w, each cover 4 X 4, please read before posting.


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## bk78 (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> 2 X 800w, each cover 4 X 4, please read before posting.


Which fixtures exactly?


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Basic stuff indeed, still, good heat management will resolve this issue.


..and heat management should be treated differently under HID vs LED light sources.


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> I didn't suggest that was due to genetics, you misread me. I suggested that increased frost in general is related to genetics and overall health of the plant.


Bro thats exectly what you said, but i wont hold you for it as its not a barking match, and i really dont care what every person says
Increased Frost is genetic to an extant, i do agree on that.


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> ..and heat management should be treated differently under HID vs LED light sources.


Agreed.
This is the panel:



Rated at 110K Lm (Total Ofcourse)
2.8 Umol (sigh)
PPFD Avg at 10 Inch: 900
90 angle lenses

Meanwell drivers, all philips diodes


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Bro thats exectly what you said, but i wont hold you for it as its not a barking match, and i really dont care what every person says
> Increased Frost is genetic to an extant, i do agree on that.


I can see how you misread me, however if you go back an look at that post, you will see that I used paragraphical punctuation to seperate those two statements.


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## Cannabisco (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Agreed.
> This is the panel:
> 
> View attachment 5143807
> ...


Makes sense why you don't like led.
My 250 watt puts out more ppfd than your 800watt. 
Least it has a good driver.


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Even with my 2 X 800w panels, it took me some time to dial in the temp in the tent, they do get very hot (the ambient temp, not actual fixture) had to get an A\C and put it inside, also 2 large fans, and the summer here is brutal, so keeping it under 28c even with LEDs at this power is an electrical challange... not in terms of how to manage the heat, but to try and save money while doing it.
i always wondered why dont they come with fans above their heat sinks ? like CPUs... maybe they fear that heat will go to the plants, but maybe for some folks in cooler regions it can be a plus

To be honest, i had a GH Cheese strain i grew under HPS 400w, and i stuck that bulb to his ass lol and temp was high, very high 32-34c
But it came out to be killer smoke, very potent terpy old ams cheese funk, the tops were a little roasted so even when heat destroy your trichomes very fast, it can sometimes make it better (some strains), not all truth is 100% accurate, there is exceptions in everything in life i think.


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Cannabisco said:


> Makes sense why you don't like led.


I grew with many more variations of LED my friend, never saw an exception, well i did, for worse, as other variations were not 800w "monsters" 
But i guess it dosent matter too much, 1000 X 300 Lm diodes is still 300 Lm diodes, im still sticking to my initial story, now is not their time to shine, they will get there eventually.
And if a 800w 1000usd panel is making sense why i dont like them, i need to buy the 5000w model then, maybe then i will like them.
Not trying to inflict u with it, just my experience with them.


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## Cannabisco (Jun 3, 2022)

Maybe you just suck at growing as much as you suck at making people believe hps is better than led. Give it time and eventually your skill set will improve.


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Lol i dont need anyone to believe me 
They just go to the 315 Lec club or the 600 club, then they go to the LED grow journals and laugh their ass off of what LED growers call bud 
See ? its easy to be mean


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Lol i dont need anyone to believe me
> They just go to the 315 Lec club or the 600 club, then they go to the LED grow journals and laugh their ass off of what LED growers call bud
> See ? its easy to be mean


We're still waiting to see what you've grown that you consider frosty.


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## hillbill (Jun 3, 2022)

Most the LED Growers right here have had a lot of HID grows in the past.


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## Cannabisco (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Lol i dont need anyone to believe me
> They just go to the 315 Lec club or the 600 club, then they go to the LED grow journals and laugh their ass off of what LED growers call bud
> See ? its easy to be mean


Then why are you trying soooo damn hard coming off pathetic af.
I've already stated cmh & led are both superior to hps, the internet has said the same, scientists even have said it. Go watch some videos by Dr. Bruce Bugbee. Go take an unbiased walk throughout the interwebs & anyone can come to the same conclusion.
It's not 1989 anymore & as much as I would love it to be as simple as HPS is the be all end all; it simply is not. HPS is dead, it had one hell of a good run.. But LEC & LED are king and will be for decades to come. Sure HPS can grow bud, but it is inferior to LEC & LED. Most commercial grows & hobby grows are LED or LEC/LED checkerboard. HPS is not cost effective & having to mitigate heat, mitigate increased water uptake, having to constantly replace HPS bulbs frequently. Not Cost effective. Highest percent of meds are grown under LED wUV supplemented or LEC or a combo of both- research it. Not Tom dick & Harry grow journals.
Post pics of all your lights that you use to grow - first it was 150 watt hps, then 250 watt, then we all said the most efficient & effective was 600 watt , then 1k & 1k DE then all of a sudden you use 600 watt hps & then 1000 DE lol like wtf. And post all these G13 top medical grade mkUltra terpey donkey dicks crusted in trichome gorgeousness that you have so much experience growing.
Shaming LED when you are using a mediocre board with mediocre diodes from over 5 years ago- do you know how much LED has changed in 10yrs? 5yrs? 2 yrs? And it keeps getting better. Samsung Evo diodes boom right after LM301H&B. The tech is progressing faster than people can buy it. And most commercial grows are insured by manufacturers for futureproofing so as new tech hits the market they get upgraded for free. Why would they fuck around like it's still 1989 with HPS? 

You wonder why people are having a hard time believing you, but have you read your posts?
I've grown indoor & outdoor for over 25 years and tried HPS, sorry but CMH & LED is simply better.


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> They are certainly not better, not for flowering MJ, not for now.
> They will grow plants, as all lights will even the smallest Lm light, They will also grow trichomes, but have no "Kick" when it comes to producing them massively or in anyway compared to HID, both science and reality support this claim.
> But again, im talking about today, the future looks bright for this tech in terms of power and spectrum, even more then CMH
> I just personally hate LEDs because i know they are very toxic to DNA and our Eyes, thats why they are pushing them all over the world and in any segment of private life or business.
> ...


Omg this has got to be where I draw the line trying to reason with you.

For starters, I am an optical Engineer, take that for what u want! But I am very sure of my above statement.
Secondly, it is universally agreed that modern led horticulture fixtures are BETTER than their HID counterpart, maybe not much depending on the situation. But certainly better in every aspect!

You want intensity? Coverage? CRI? Efficiency? Efficacy? Use led! Even if you replace 1000w de hps with 1000w input watts of high quality full spectrum high cri strips boards and cobs in an ai configured layout? Custom far and infra red diodes on their own timers? Independently trigger phytocromes? Extremely high quality uva uvb and uvc diodes? You still don’t think 1000w of led can be better than even 1000w de ceramic?

you’re either a fool or a troll with an agenda.

Almost every single trick hid has up its sleeve led can beat with better efficiency and efficacy and if not, it can do the same with. a fair deal more ease.

I grew with hps, dual arc, mh, cmh, plasma fluorescent etc for years, years and years and years and years.

I used to be a dick about it, I tried led Measured outpuT and the “reality” of it with real world applications, and told everyone in the blurple community my findings (got me a lot of hate). I used to be the guy…. “Lemme see a fixture with 8w diodes then I’ll take notice ha! Inverse square law this, laws of reflection that!”

truth is, they didn’t need this! Changing the layout of diodes changed the angle of incidence which changed the power value recieved by the buds and so on!

WE WERE FOOLS! And by the sounds of it YOU STILL ARE!


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## Rocket Soul (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> You talk about the efficiency of a light source, yes, LED tech is more efficient at making light compared to HID, if you read the whole thread thats not what this is about, even though LED is more efficient as a standalone watt for watt then HID, it still comes in small wattage such as 2w 3w diodes that put out 300 Lm, so just like in any light source if you split it you wont get the total amount of light but get the total amount of each light source that you split, in our case HPS is a single light source that push 150K Lm, and a LED diode is a light source that push 300 Lm, it dosent matter if you put 300 of those next to each other, you still have 300 Lm max output but in 300 different places, you dont have now 300 X 300 lm output, because you spread the output to 300 bulbs.


Why on earth do you believe this? By the same logic 2x 600hps over a 4x4 would give the same light as 1x 600hps. Since both the hps are the same intensity. What is about one light source that cancel out the other light sources? Why wouldnt the light from 2 light sources combine in intensity? Please explain and show some of that maths. Cite or link anything scientific where you got this idea from pleaee.

You have probably seen some pics of green houses using sunlight + hps lights for supplementation. How does this work? Would the total light on cannopy not be light from the sun + light from the hps? As the sun is more intense wouldnt it cancel out the hps light from your argument? Why would all this longtime professional growers use supplementary hps for years and years when your math proves that it doesnt work. 

I promised myself on page 4 i would read all this thread before commenting but, well, i just cant swallow this inconsistent argument for 10 pages. I just hope it stopps somewhere around page 8.


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Agreed.
> This is the panel:
> 
> View attachment 5143807
> ...


How the fuck does someone with as much “insight” as you, do ur research, weigh up the pros and cons, then use this light ?????


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## Rocket Soul (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> What does this testing tell us beside what we already know ? 650w total panel with many many low intensity diodes that put on avg par of 1780, cool, now lets try the same testing with a 600w hps at the same height, wanna guess the par numbers ?
> You still dont accept the fact the the diode itself puts out 300 Lm, a plant can use most of this 300 Lm spectrum (as your par testing suggests) but its too weak to get to your plants at the first place !
> its not personal, just ACTUAL light math.


Oh god just show the math. And also ask someone about how crosslighting works.


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

Rocket Soul said:


> Why on earth do you believe this? By the same logic 2x 600hps over a 4x4 would give the same light as 1x 600hps. Since both the hps are the same intensity. What is about one light source that cancel out the other light sources? Why wouldnt the light from 2 light sources combine in intensity? Please explain and show some of that maths. Cite or link anything scientific where you got this idea from pleaee.
> 
> You have probably seen some pics of green houses using sunlight + hps lights for supplementation. How does this work? Would the total light on cannopy not be light from the sun + light from the hps? As the sun is more intense wouldnt it cancel out the hps light from your argument? Why would all this longtime professional growers use supplementary hps for years and years when your math proves that it doesnt work.
> 
> I promised myself on page 4 i would read all this thread before commenting but, well, i just cant swallow this inconsistent argument for 10 pages. I just hope it stopps somewhere around page 8.


Intensity can’t be added upon, the intensity of the light further down can never match that of the intensity at the source, all we can do is add more light at the same intensity to cover more of the 3D space by coming in at different angles and “navigating” vegetation obstacles (leaves etc).


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## Rocket Soul (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> No it dosent, Lm defines intensity, PAR define how much of intensity is divided in the 400-700 spectrum
> So Leds have lots of PAR, sure, cuz they are made to put light waves in the PAR spectrum, very very good indeed, but no power, only 2w, only 3w...
> So no, intensity is not there.


Lumens and luxx defines intensity as experienced by the human eye.


snakedope said:


> So, ive grown with both of them, and also see in other people threads (the LED ones) that weight increased due to more diodes giving light at more places but the bud itself and quality for me was shit and to be honest also in most of the LED journals i look it looks shit too, when i say shit i mean when comparing to HPS or MH, each LED grow i smoke and see is shit quality, i mean what can you expect from a diode that only make 250 Lm ??
> 
> according to the book of old LED myths and legends chapter 2, an array of many leds (like the 600W+ panels) give you a total lets say 100,000 Lm right ? wrong ! you just added 300+ 250 Lm diodes together lol, its quite embarrassing that people forget simple math and logic when it comes to spending money on bogus claims, i saw on another thread here a LED panel that claims 5000 umol for 5000 $$ hahahaha i wonder if i put 10K i will get 10K umol  people are so gullible these days and that goes for all led panels, ive pretty much tried them all from the lowest wattage ones to a "beast" 800w panels
> And will never use them again, the only thing they do good is covering more space, but with what ? a low intensity small diode lol
> ...


Why use 4x 250hps for a grow in a 4x4 if the light from these bulbs dont combine? Or is there some special physics for hps and another to led diodes? Does crosslighting only work for hps or what? According to your argument you would get the same result from 1 x250hps as 4 since you light intensity dont add up. Please explain, or at least try to explain to yourself why you have these ideas. Or maybe back to underneath the bridge you came from.


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## Rocket Soul (Jun 3, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> Intensity can’t be added upon, the intensity of the light further down can never match that of the intensity at the source, all we can do is add more light at the same intensity to cover more of the 3D space by coming in at different angles and “navigating” vegetation obstacles (leaves etc).


Thats a bit of a weird thing to say. And nonfactual. It most definitely add up. Why wouldnt 2 of the same lights be brighter than one? Please explain. Or maybe read up on physics.


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## bk78 (Jun 3, 2022)

Rocket Soul said:


> Oh god just show the math. And also ask someone about how crosslighting works.


Good to see you finally showed up, need @Prawn Connery here too


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## rkymtnman (Jun 3, 2022)

bk78 said:


> Good to see you finally showed up, need @Prawn Connery here too


don't feed the troll is the only way. 

thomas edison could show up and this dude still gonna use a street light.


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## bk78 (Jun 3, 2022)

rkymtnman said:


> don't feed the troll is the only way.
> 
> thomas edison could show up and this dude still gonna use a street light.


Reminds me fully of kingrow


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

Rocket Soul said:


> Thats a bit of a weird thing to say. And nonfactual. It most definitely add up. Why wouldnt 2 of the same lights be brighter than one? Please explain. Or maybe read up on physics.


Shine a torch at ur fence, so half of the light hits the fence and the other half shines above and beyond, then get another of the same torch and shine it at the same spot on you’re fence. Rather than see further into the distance, you will realise, you can only see as far as before, just better, you have more angles of incidence hitting a given object at a given distance. Sure more photons are hitting that surface, but only because there are more light sources, not because there is more intensity.


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## rkymtnman (Jun 3, 2022)

bk78 said:


> Reminds me fully of kingrow


i think you are on to something.


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## Rocket Soul (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Even with my 2 X 800w panels, it took me some time to dial in the temp in the tent, they do get very hot (the ambient temp, not actual fixture) had to get an A\C and put it inside, also 2 large fans, and the summer here is brutal, so keeping it under 28c even with LEDs at this power is an electrical challange... not in terms of how to manage the heat, but to try and save money while doing it.
> i always wondered why dont they come with fans above their heat sinks ? like CPUs... maybe they fear that heat will go to the plants, but maybe for some folks in cooler regions it can be a plus
> 
> To be honest, i had a GH Cheese strain i grew under HPS 400w, and i stuck that bulb to his ass lol and temp was high, very high 32-34c
> But it came out to be killer smoke, very potent terpy old ams cheese funk, the tops were a little roasted so even when heat destroy your trichomes very fast, it can sometimes make it better (some strains), not all truth is 100% accurate, there is exceptions in everything in life i think.


Dude this is why your led grows suck, youre supposed to keep your led cannopy over 28C. Not by much but 27-30C is ideal, this due to the missing IR in all lights but leds. When you talk about "reality" results and not on paper results have you considered that maybe you just suck at growing with leds cause you try to do the same as hps? Youre the last hps warrior in a loooooooong line of growbros all claiming the same and when they eventually see their buddys led grow kick ass and see how they run the environment they all realized they were wrong. Do you know anyone who grows close to you? Youve spent 14 pages on this and only now you mention environment, showing everyone why you cant get hps results with leds.


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

Rocket Soul said:


> Thats a bit of a weird thing to say. And nonfactual. It most definitely add up. Why wouldnt 2 of the same lights be brighter than one? Please explain. Or maybe read up on physics.


I can say abit more on it if you’d like?


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## Rocket Soul (Jun 3, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> Shine a torch at ur fence, so half of the light hits the fence and the other half shines above and beyond, then get another of the same torch and shine it at the same spot on you’re fence. Rather than see further into the distance, you will realise, you can only see as far as before, just better, you have more angles of incidence hitting a given object at a given distance. *Sure more photons are hitting that surface, but only because there are more light sources, not because there is more intensity. *


Please....
First you might wanna define intensity. In SI units if you can. What is it? What is this intensity you quote, can you actually explain it? Intensity, as defined by lumens and lux is how bright something is to the human eye. Its a human centric measure based on our eyes.









Photosynthesis - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





Now have a look at photosynthesis, look for where it talks about co2+ h20 + light = sugars and o2. Does it say "intensities" or "photons" ? Photosynthesis is photon dependant, not intensity dependant. Its a fact you can look up. It takes, at best, 48 photons, to make a molecule of sugar for the plant. No amount of intensities can make photosynthesis happen, intensity is something which happens around those photons but only in our eyes. Of course, the 48 photons will have some "intensity" in our eyes but this will vary wildly with the nanometers of the light: one photons worth of green light is much more bright and intense than one red one. 




Ive added this for anyone too lazy to look it up:


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## Rocket Soul (Jun 3, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> I can say abit more on it if you’d like?


Pleaee do but first have a look at the link i posted, have a look into photosynthesis, read up on lumens and lux, and then lets talk.


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

Rocket Soul said:


> Please....
> First you might wanna define intensity. In SI units if you can. What is it? What is this intensity you quote, can you actually explain it? Intensity, as defined by lumens and lux is how bright something is to the human eye. Its a human centric measure based on our eyes.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I concede. When we talk about intensity as our perception of how many photons hit given surface in a certain amount of time then that is correct and yes we can add this up and we do measure for his in lux (how many photons we can perceive hit our eyes) What I am referring to is the intensity of the wave. The unit is watts/steradian. Energy flux is determined By the output and also the ability of light to move through something, in our case air or leaves. The intensity of the wave is directionally proportionate to the square of its amplitude (sure I’ve got that right… haha it’s been a while). So unless we change the amplitude, we cannot change the intensity. Yes different frequency waves carry more or less energy at the same amplitude but not more intensity. When we add another identical source all we are doing is adding more waves, not changing the amplitude or intensity of the wave.
When we look at luminous intensity all we are doing is counting the number of photons/space/time and forgetting about the wave. We must concerntrate on the wave if we want to determine the power of the light which directly correlates with the distance it can travel or depth it can penetrate.

although I am an optical engineer by trade this was a very long time ago so someone may be able to point out a mistake I’ve made, but I’m pretty sure what I’ve said is solid.

imagine 4 400ppf sources hung 1m above a canopy vs 1 1600ppf source, the amount of photons that hit the be canopy will be very similar resulting in similar luminous intensity (photons/space/time as we perceive) but the stream of photons is not more intense, just the way we perceive them hitting the surface is. There is no way the 4 250s have the intensity to penetrate or “shine” as deep or as “far” respectively as the 1000.

EDIT: I’ve edited this like 4 times since I posted it haha, I am rusty.


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> Yes I concede. When we talk about intensity as our perception of how many photons hit given surface in a certain amount of time then that is correct and yes we can add this up and we do measure for his in lux (how many photons we can perceive hit our eyes) What I am referring to is the intensity of the wave. Energy flux is determined By the output and also the ability of light to move through something, in our case air or leaves. The intensity of the wave is directionally proportionate to the square of its amplitude (sure I’ve got that right… haha it’s been a while). So unless we change the amplitude, we cannot change the intensity. Yes different frequency waves carry more or less energy at the same amplitude but not more intensity. When we add another identical source all we are doing is adding more waves, not changing the amplitude or intensity of the wave.
> 
> although I am an optical engineer by trade this was a very long time ago so someone may be able to point out a mistake I’ve made, but I’m pretty sure what I’ve said is solid.
> 
> imagine 4 400ppf sources hung 1m above a canopy vs 1 1600ppf source, the amount of photons that hit the be canopy will be very similar resulting in similar luminous intensity (photons/space/time as we perceive) but the stream of photons is not more intense, just the way we perceive them hitting the surface is.


 There is some contusion here in optics because intensity can be used to describe irradiance, radiant intensity and also luminous intensity. The word intensity is also used as a term by other physicists to describe heat transfer


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

I wrote some answers to you guys, addresing some of the things you mentioned, but im too stoned to complete it right now lol 

Blue Brother, your opinions and insights are amazing, much info on the topic at hand.

Hope i get to address some of the issues you brought up so we can share thoughts.
GN


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## snakedope (Jun 3, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> Yes I concede. When we talk about intensity as our perception of how many photons hit given surface in a certain amount of time then that is correct and yes we can add this up and we do measure for his in lux (how many photons we can perceive hit our eyes) What I am referring to is the intensity of the wave. Energy flux is determined By the output and also the ability of light to move through something, in our case air or leaves. The intensity of the wave is directionally proportionate to the square of its amplitude (sure I’ve got that right… haha it’s been a while). So unless we change the amplitude, we cannot change the intensity. Yes different frequency waves carry more or less energy at the same amplitude but not more intensity. When we add another identical source all we are doing is adding more waves, not changing the amplitude or intensity of the wave.
> 
> although I am an optical engineer by trade this was a very long time ago so someone may be able to point out a mistake I’ve made, but I’m pretty sure what I’ve said is solid.
> 
> imagine 4 400ppf sources hung 1m above a canopy vs 1 1600ppf source, the amount of photons that hit the be canopy will be very similar resulting in similar luminous intensity (photons/space/time as we perceive) but the stream of photons is not more intense, just the way we perceive them hitting the surface is. There is no way the 4 250s have the intensity to penetrate or “shine” as deep or as “far” respectively as the 1000.


Just to simplify things, when you have multiple light sources that put short wavelengths, you will have the initial numbers, but just at a certain height and depth, because they are "short", they get to a certain distance and they dissipate or absorbed by the closest branches and leaves
(aka the canopy)
This is in straight relation to the amplitude (voltage) because when u have 1 light source that gives x wavelengths at y lengths, putting more of those wont change the length of the waves, just the qty of them at places that you put them in (spread) 
So to conclude this, when you add voltage or intensity for our manner (unless they make 1w diode that gives 300 diodes power), you make stronger and longer waves, resulting in better ppfd which is just legnth of waves and how much they flux at a given surface and how much can be absorbed and if they encounter a canopy that absorb it, do they keep going deeper (long wave high voltage) or breaking and dissipating (short wave low voltage).


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## Blue brother (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Just to simplify things, when you have multiple light sources that put short wavelengths, you will have the initial numbers, but just at a certain height and depth, because they are "short", they get to a certain distance and they dissipate or absorbed by the closest branches and leaves
> (aka the canopy)
> This is in straight relation to the amplitude (voltage) because when u have 1 light source that gives x wavelengths at y lengths, putting more of those wont change the length of the waves, just the qty of them at places that you put them in (spread)
> So to conclude this, when you add voltage or intensity for our manner (unless they make 1w diode that gives 300 diodes power), you make stronger and longer waves, resulting in better ppfd which is just legnth of waves and how much they flux at a given surface and how much can be absorbed and if they encounter a canopy that absorb it, do they keep going deeper (long wave high voltage) or breaking and dissipating (short wave low voltage).


Fair play, to the best of my knowledge, what you’ve just said is correct. I was attempting to say the same thing but talked myself round in circles in my post lol.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 3, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Just to simplify things, when you have multiple light sources that put short wavelengths, you will have the initial numbers, but just at a certain height and depth, because they are "short", they get to a certain distance and they dissipate or absorbed by the closest branches and leaves
> (aka the canopy)
> This is in straight relation to the amplitude (voltage) because when u have 1 light source that gives x wavelengths at y lengths, putting more of those wont change the length of the waves, just the qty of them at places that you put them in (spread)
> So to conclude this, when you add voltage or intensity for our manner (unless they make 1w diode that gives 300 diodes power), you make stronger and longer waves, resulting in better ppfd which is just legnth of waves and how much they flux at a given surface and how much can be absorbed and if they encounter a canopy that absorb it, do they keep going deeper (long wave high voltage) or breaking and dissipating (short wave low voltage).





Blue brother said:


> Fair play, to the best of my knowledge, what you’ve just said is correct. I was attempting to say the same thing but talked myself round in circles in my post lol.


What you are attempting to refer to is called Inverse Square Law, but it has nothing to do with short vs long wavelenghts, as wavelength has more to do with quality of light, not intensity.






Inverse Square Law - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics







www.sciencedirect.com


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## xtsho (Jun 4, 2022)

Top shelf cannabis can be grown under both HID and LED. Light is one of the most important factors but many suffer from a lack of other factors so regardless of light hey are disappointed at harvest.

HID's are much easier to grow with and a novice and first time grower may get better results using them. LEDs have a more complex learning curve to get really proficient with and that leads to many newer growers having issues that can be contributed to the lights. 

With HID's it pretty much as simple as the back of the hand test to know where to put the lights and crank them up. With LEDs there are more factors at play with regard to light height, intensity, temperature, humidity, etc...

If you know what you're doing either light technologies will yield excellent results. One just uses less resources to achieve that goal.


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## Horselover fat (Jun 4, 2022)

xtsho said:


> Top shelf cannabis can be grown under both HID and LED. Light is one of the most important factors but many suffer from a lack of other factors so regardless of light hey are disappointed at harvest.
> 
> HID's are much easier to grow with and a novice and first time grower may get better results using them. LEDs have a more complex learning curve to get really proficient with and that leads to many newer growers having issues that can be contributed to the lights.
> 
> ...


I don't think led is more difficult than hps. I think many growers got used to hps and adapting is difficult. A new grower just learns to grow with led. That said, I found the transfer easy. I went from 600w hps to 315cmh, then one grow using 200w of cobs and then to my 320w boards. The boards are best yet for me and my application. Both for quantity and quality.


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 4, 2022)

You need to forget about this "light is a wave" for a moment because it's not relevant as photosynthesis is quantum-driven (@Rocket Soul is spot on!). To correctly measure light intensity for our purposes we use PPFD or PPF or YPF but lux/lumen is irrelevant and grossly misleading. Any surplus energy of a photon <680nm or <700nm is dispersed as (mostly) heat.
A photon is the gauge-boson of the electro-magnetic force that is timeless, has always the impulse of c, and either -1 or +1 spin meaning there can be an infinite amount of photons at any given point in timespace, though if a critical energy-density is overstepped then they will recombine into an electron-positron pair which swiftly mutually annihiliates one another (they spin in opposite directions but meet after half), sending 2 photons away into diametral directions. This is actually what happens right in the center of the sun and the reason, since this process is slow, why the light from its core takes many many years to reach the sun's surface, and briefly after, us.

Any usage of lumen or lux or else is really only misleading, though the radiant flux of a fixture can give another hint at the quality of the lightsource together with its PPF. As blue light or UVA uses more energy up to be generated and is crucially needed for both photochemistry or bud quality. Some modern LED fixtures claim +3.5umols but are mostly 660nm mostly designed for greenhouse amendment light where there is already sufficient of blue and green from the sun. The same fixtures (e.g. that watercooled which got mentioned previously) then show 2.8umols/J in its whitelight-configuration.

I'm not really sure if that's Snakedope's LED light is true to its claim of 2.8umols, it looks like a faildesign with closed (from above) heatsinks and black colour so as to encapture light and release back as IR. BUT, if 2.8umols/W is true then he is actually blasting his plants with more than double the photon-count as previously released by his HPS (1.5umols/W) - HPS-900PPF vs LED-2184PPF LMAO all the while making matters worse by trying to reduce warmth which will only further reduce enzymatic activity and just slow photosynthesis down, potentially leading to higher buildup of dangerous triplett excitation states inside the light-harvesting complexes causing singulett oxygen which can damage DNA, proteins essentially bleaching leaves from the inside out. That needs to be repaired plus there will be a much higher loss of carbon from respiration. You need to buy yourself a quantum meter and measure PPFD at canopy level, then use an IR gun to take leaf surface temps then adjust your environment to align with a proper VPD & DLI. There's charts. And not be so ignorant, deflective when others ask you rhetorical questions with the intent to point you into the right direction and forget about all your self-styled wisdom derived from druged logic theory. That's not science, just do a clean slate and discard all that into the trashcan.

About photons, "how far it can reach" - well, infinitely. It will never stop flying which is the reason why we can observe extremely distant objects like quasars/blazars or the cosmic background radiation which is old as about 300.000years after the Big Bang - so 13.7billion years. They fly, fly, fly just the electromagnetic field gets less dense with distance, except for when a laser is being emitted.
One of the reasons why this quanta-wave-duality is in existance is due to the Uncertainty Principle that means we cannot absolutely true pinpoint the location AND time of a quantum particle, its either we either miss the time or the location slightly and that is due to the inane error imposed by our methods of observation (we use quantum particles like electrons but mostly photons), which additionally influence the nature of what we want to observe experimentally. The most famous experiment to show this is the Doppelspalt-experiment but still, we can quantify the number of particles in or out, in a discrete fashion, giving a true number and also recombine its energy equivalency to a 100% true number. There's nothing mysterious about it it's just 2 sides of the same coin.


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 4, 2022)

The only exception to a quanta or single-photon-based evaluation is within the farred-region and everything that is considered under the phenomenum "Emerson-effect" where a photon >700nm is dependant on the presence of white light (driving photosystem 1) and uses phononic energy (locale heat) to drive photosystem 2:

(I have no data for Cannabis but it should, at least, be inclusive up to 750nm)

This also means that heat can be converted into biomass (energy is energy remember Einstein's equivalence) so this is where "the science on paper" falls short and gives less credence to HID lamps.

Actually Bugbee is now fighting hard to include this old and seemingly forgotten knowledge into a new supervised PAR range definition but is met by lots of autorative resistance. But the proof, which Bugbee showed in a series of various and highly developed experiments/studies, is there, there's really no way around it. It would be good if that happened to create a more even comparison ground for lamp fixture efficacy.

To further add:
A 250w HPS has a fixture efficacy of only 1.2umol/J and this, is much worse as a 1000w DE with 1700umols and a much greater life-expectationcy as a SE low wattage. Add in the higher hardware costs, will give you way less a bang-for-the-buck, even better light usage can be mitigate with enough minimum height of the 1000w HPS.

Also, there have been some recent tests done by MIGRO regarding PPFD prints and reflective walls and one thing is for certain, a growtent has very little lightloss so fixture height doesn't matter alltomuch. There is a huge error-in-thinking or measuring because many walls will disperse deflected light in a diffuse fashion but quantum meter sensors are designed to pick up a light-stream from a direction, ie. their sensor doesn't encapture true like a sphere from all directions so alot of diffuse light isn't weighted properly - it doesn't even make it inside the sensor! That is why we got Ulbricht integration spheres. Think of it this way: a lamp or fixture creates a discrete, specific amount of photons every second and these will 95% land upon your leaves IF you are in a tent that has highly reflective walls and the footprint is filled densely by leaves which are very efficient to collect photons.


^^ even that is with sensor error ^^


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## snakedope (Jun 4, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> What you are attempting to refer to is called Inverse Square Law, but it has nothing to do with short vs long wavelenghts, as wavelength has more to do with quality of light, not intensity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes quality of wavelengths types, or spectrum in other words, is important as each type of wave has its own character and uses
But you keep ignoring how this wave reaches our eyes or plants, dismissing the intensity (length of the waves) factor. 
A wavelength is a definition of Wave (type) and length (intensity)
Low intensity light source is called low because the length of the waves being produced is short (compared to a high intensity wave) You can imagine this as a line that gets broken when you lower the intensity 
And becomes more solid and longer when u raise it
When I say longer I mean the wave has much more energy behind it to keep the light or wave going without losing same energy
leading to much more saturation at the first places the wave hits and continuing as the line has more power behind him that result in higher ppfd count, which only tell us how much the line is able to reach to a certain plain and when it is absorbe, how much will continue
Light (wave) power (length of the wave).
No light source is different, you have the diode which determines the types of waves, then you couple it with intensity (voltage) to make those wavelengths short or long, depending on intensity you choose
Last thing, the whole problem is that the diodes are intensity limited, you cannot go higher then the rated intensity the same diode or bulb permits
So, we are left with 1 option, change the diodes 
Or make them better at handling power that produce their wave types for longer distances without breaking the line or ppfd count


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 4, 2022)

The oftentimes read claims of Ceramic-MH of "only needing 315w instead of 600w HPS" is also a hoax cleverly designed by the HID industry to weasel around the overtaking of the market by the LED technology. A 315w CMH has only a little better photon-efficacy of a 600w HPS. If their claims would be true, then CMH would be en parre with LED 3.0umol/J but that is simply not true. The CMH prevents some IR/heat emission but with LED now at 4.8umol/J for the latest 660nm diodes that's like a complete new world. Even 2.

@PJ Diaz, some of the HIDs IR emissions do actually greatly transmit through organic matter that is why the 850 & 940nm diodes are used for nightvision telescopy. That type of radiation will basically loose only 10% of it's photon count per incident-of-leaf. Still, it does add extra energy to the system where it does so but is one of the major contributors why HPS/HID can increase metabolism really deep inside the plants' structure. Other wavelengths like around 1500nm - 2500nm are much better to heat up carbohydrates or water swiftly upon contact.


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 4, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Low intensity light source is called low because the length of the waves being produced is short


no - the wavelength (or frequency) of a photon relates to its colour and thus, its energycontent.
it's the only varying parameter (besides spin) a photon can actually have.
all other considerations arise from the stacking of photons, the number of photons, inside the electro-magnetic field that is light.


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 4, 2022)

Here you see how wavelength correlates to frequency and energy. It's really simple to calculate as you only have 1 parameter that can change in that formulae


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 4, 2022)

The 5777K is the colour-temperature of our sun which correlates to a black-body at this temperature


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## Rurumo (Jun 4, 2022)

CMH is my all time favorite light source, but I've grudgingly switched to LED because its multitude of benefits are undeniable. First off, safety wise, it's nice not having to worry about an exploding ball of molten fire. When the power goes out and the lines try like hell to stay on and flicker like crazy for 30 sec, I'm always glad to be using LED instead of listen to my CMH ballast trying to fire every few seconds but fail because of the hot restrike protection system. Safety aside, the DOUBLE yields are also nice. There is no comparison between HID and LED in terms of yield. More light equates to more yield up until the point another aspect of your grow bottlenecks you. I love the technical discussion, but it comes down to results, and LED has converted most of us old timers who've been using various HID lights for 25+ years. To be honest, I didn't want to like LED, but I'm a pragmatic person, so I'm all in on LED now. Though I do want to see better spectrums in the future.


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 4, 2022)

snakedope said:


> When I say longer I mean the wave has much more energy behind it to keep the light or wave going without losing same energy


it cannot loose energy. That's impossible. It's against the natural laws of energy conservation. It will always have the speed of light and its frequency. Forever. Though the density of photons will get less with distance

but it's just another way to illustrate that *the same amount of photons* now cover/got dispersed over a much greater area - which is increasing not linearily. Since the emitted energy is the same, but the area increases inversely squared, you register a great drop in locale irradiance/PPFD/light density although all lightbeams together measured would still register/mount up to the same energy.


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 4, 2022)

Rurumo said:


> There is no comparison between HID and LED in terms of yield. More light equates to more yield up until the point another aspect of your grow bottlenecks you


Rumuro, what is "yield" in your view?
- total dry weight; or
- cannabinoid content
?

The question isn't unimportant with regards to some of the finer aspects of this discussion....:

LED has a boatload of raw photon output but excells esp. with its 660nm monos.
With cannabis showing fattening of buds late flower some swear by high NPK others (even studies) speak of a "dilution effect" (=just more drymass no more cannabinoids).

HPS typically grows not much frost it simply lacks blue and heat may decrease terps but is the LEDs 450nm only blue light peak already sufficient for max quality?

The more you go into blue/UV the greater will be both running & hardware costs but does it pay off? Where is the fine line? Why are studies so paradox in that regard? And is HID still a viable option for growing in a cold basement?
I feel like all the environmental parameters plus genetics need to be considered...


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## snakedope (Jun 4, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> it cannot loose energy. That's impossible. It's against the natural laws of energy conservation. It will always have the speed of light and its frequency. Forever. Though the density of photons will get less with distance
> View attachment 5144108
> but it's just another way to illustrate that *the same amount of photons* now cover/got dispersed over a much greater area - which is increasing not linearily. Since the emitted energy is the same, but the area increases inversely squared, you register a great drop in locale irradiance/PPFD/light density although all lightbeams together measured would still register/mount up to the same energy.


You are right, the light beams will register the same energy, and that’s the problem 
You can’t go over the rated power of the source
If you could, we wouldn’t have this discussion 
The whole thread Is about, do 300 Lm diode is enough, even with all the types of waves it produce ? 
The answer is clearly no
you said it yourself, the density of the photons (or breaks in the length of the wave) will drop with distance if not boosted with higher intensity
You have a good point when u say they are now dispersed over a larger area, and that is why weight wise LEDs are king 
But again, less photon count based on limited photon production of low rated light sources is just that, canopy lights at best

When growing plants for fun this will be enough to make anyone a happy camper
When u grow trichomes, the equation is different as they are not growing plants but a response to types of waves and their intensity (ability to saturate enough to trigger that response)

This discussion went a lil south
I was trying to focus on which light source will grow trichomes best, not plants
I mentioned before that maybe for veg and growing plants a low ppfd count and more types of waves (led) is better or at least equal to high intensity of less types of waves 
I could be wrong, just a speculative theory

But more important is what does trichome needs in terms of light source, does it need the high intensity (length and duration of the wave) or does it need many types of waves that trigger the process In low intensity?
I think it’s both with a good amount of evidence towards the high intensity, as older and also new HIDs lack the wave types of LED
This can only mean that trichomes are response to intensity more then types of waves as older HID grows prove.


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## snakedope (Jun 4, 2022)

It also make sense as the sun has all types of waves all the time, but the intensity is not the same all the time
That’s why in places which receive high intensity from the sun (aus, tropics etc) u get killer trichome production


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## snakedope (Jun 4, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> Rumuro, what is "yield" in your view?
> - total dry weight; or
> - cannabinoid content
> ?
> ...


I like that, A very critical mind and eye for things, keep up the good work,I’m happy to share knowledge and thoughts with u.


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## Horselover fat (Jun 4, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> it cannot loose energy. That's impossible. It's against the natural laws of energy conservation. It will always have the speed of light and its frequency. Forever.


Technically not true. Given enough distance photons will lose energy due to redsift caused by expansion of space. Yes, the photon is still "eternal" and will travel for ever until absorbed, but it will lose energy. Completely unrelated to growing in any way ofc


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## snakedope (Jun 4, 2022)

The most important thing I saw and see, if you look at low wattage grows, you look at the buds, you understand that this bud was not receiving enough waves or intensity (call it what you will), let’s use common people language so we can understand this concept better, the terms “lower bud sites” or “not enough exposure” or “penetration” are all light related (power related) and are not burned into each growers head for nothing, these concepts exist and you can’t deny them, you can add or subtract variables (growers adjustments) but the concept won’t change from the source (low wattage light) 
If you agree with that, following this logic (putting more low wattage light) will not increase the x (qty of ppfd) but will increase the y (spread of that ppfd), Unless, you put it in the same place/spot ! Then this math will become obsolete somewhat, depending on the way you add the x variable (efficacy) 
But that’s not the case with LED Panels. they are low wattage lights, until you amplify the wattage or intensity, but you cant go higher then what the light is rated, so you add more lights, not wattage, at different places ! 
getting the same amount of ppfd from each light just in other sides, which is great, for weight, and only weight of plants, not trichome, you can’t hold the stick at both ends. You can’t expect to spread same amount of ppfd at the canopy and 10 inch deeper without adding intensity or power to each single light source, it doesn’t work like that, so you get a good spread in a 2D level (Horizontal) but lower in the 3D level (Vertical)
Don’t forget, this numbers get absorbed and dissipate (not gone, but going to places you don’t want and need).


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## Horselover fat (Jun 4, 2022)

^has zero to do with "low intensity diodes". All it is different shape light cone due to different size lighting fixture. You can, easily, match hid and led source sizes and the light cone behaves similarly. Most people just don't want intense hps like hot spot. They want uniform light intensity and no shadows.


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## hillbill (Jun 4, 2022)

Penetration is much more relevant when talking about sex, most talk of “penetration” is bullshit.
One might notice the lack of shade underneath plants growing with Boards or Bars.


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 4, 2022)

Horselover fat said:


> Technically not true. Given enough distance photons will lose energy due to redsift caused by expansion of space. Yes, the photon is still "eternal" and will travel for ever until absorbed, but it will lose energy. Completely unrelated to growing in any way ofc


Interesting. Can you say where the lost energy goes?


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## snakedope (Jun 4, 2022)

Horselover fat said:


> ^has zero to do with "low intensity diodes". All it is different shape light cone due to different size lighting fixture. You can, easily, match hid and led source sizes and the light cone behaves similarly. Most people just don't want intense hps like hot spot. They want uniform light intensity and no shadows.


Only on paper, you don’t have enough intensity in the current diodes to match your cone adjustments, even if you take 300 and point them at the same direction, the initial count of each is subjected and limited to the power of the source and space which the light source inhabits, when you don’t have more drive (lm,watt) in the same source and space, you need more space, when you need more space the cone will always further away from the source, losing initial count even more
Your idea is what COBs are all about, but even they have limits that apply to this.
You can’t hold both ends of the stick my friend, only the sun can


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## Billy the Mountain (Jun 4, 2022)

hillbill said:


> Penetration is much more relevant when talking about sex, *most talk of “penetration” is bullshit.*
> One might notice the lack of shade underneath plants growing with Boards or Bars.


Absolutely

Migro has a short video empirically demonstrating that light penetration simply doesn't work the way many espouse


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## snakedope (Jun 4, 2022)

Billy the Mountain said:


> Absolutely
> 
> Migro has a short video empirically demonstrating that light penetration simply doesn't work the way many espouse


Because people think photons of light are tiny spheres that land on plants and things, no, they are wavesss
When you understand how waves work in terms of types and strength you understand terms like penetration through thin air or through plants that absorb that wave, and what makes this wave keep going from the source or at below canopy level (obstructions)
Different things, but very similar in understanding why saturation leads to better penetration as the wave push x times a min, when it is no longer absorbed by the first canopy (saturation has reached a high potential) it will keep going until absorbed again (like Kassiopeija has mentioned)


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## hillbill (Jun 4, 2022)

So what about fluorescent tubes?


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## snakedope (Jun 4, 2022)

When you have less qty of waves, remember these are not spheres jumping around but rather waves that are broken or solid depending on high or low intensity of the source, they won’t lead to a high saturation point beyond the canopy, thus always hitting the upper canopy with broken waves that never go beyond and is constantly absorbed by it (Again, why LEDs have nice canopy and not nice lowers, and why “tops” of flower are considered more desirable)


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## Horselover fat (Jun 4, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> Interesting. Can you say where the lost energy goes?


No idea. That is an interesting question, but my understanding of physics is rudimentary.

Edit: apparently short answer is: it goes to the expansion of the universe. Long answer seems a bit complicated: https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2015/12/19/ask-ethan-when-a-photon-gets-redshifted-where-does-the-energy-go/?sh=3341c9174891


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## hillbill (Jun 4, 2022)

I have more great lower buds under white and white/red Boards than HPS or CMH or both.


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## bk78 (Jun 4, 2022)

snakedope said:


> When you have less qty of waves, remember these are not spheres jumping around but rather waves that are broken or solid depending on high or low intensity of the source, they won’t lead to a high saturation point beyond the canopy, thus always hitting the upper canopy with broken waves that never go beyond and is constantly absorbed by it (Again, why LEDs have nice canopy and not nice lowers, and why “tops” of flower are considered more desirable)


When you’re speaking about “not nice lowers” what do you consider lowers in cm below the canopy?


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## snakedope (Jun 4, 2022)

hillbill said:


> I have more great lower buds under white and white/red Boards than HPS or CMH or both.


maybe you have a wave there that triggers a better response then high intensity, and is enough to make it great so you don’t need so many waves hitting your plant, maybe you used different growing method like exposing your lowers more to the light, everything is possible in this field, even the variables of the sun change from sunrise to sunset, may it be types of waves or their strength.
We are not trying to decide which is better as we all know LED is better in all departments. 
It’s just not better the way they do it right now, putting 1 outta 300, they need to make 300 in 1, and yes it does sound like I’m trying to get LEDs to act like HPS, but it’s just how nature works.. 1 sun with all types of waves and all the low and high intensity
Imagine a LED that has the power of 300 diodes, runs at 55c, PAR range superior to any other lamp, that moves around your tent starting in low intensity peak then low again like the sun, I would buy that.
Also if they make 50 or 100 diodes into 1 will also be great, will be like 250w or 400w of HID (just to give you an idea somewhat)
And again, I’m strictly talking about waves and their intensity to stress or trigger trichome production at the best level in terms of penetration and response
I’m not trying to make the lowers beat the tops in growth.


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## bk78 (Jun 4, 2022)

Stuck on repeat


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## hillbill (Jun 4, 2022)

I,m just tryin to deal with those pieces of broken waves laying all over.


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## snakedope (Jun 4, 2022)

bk78 said:


> Stuck on repeat


So do you, not going by author but as much as you,
I’m addressing ideas, Not like you.


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## bk78 (Jun 4, 2022)

snakedope said:


> So do you, not going by author but as much as you,
> I’m addressing ideas, Not like you.



So how far down is “optimal” penetration to you?


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## snakedope (Jun 4, 2022)

You ask the wrong question,
Penetration is an effect of a stronger wavelength source minus the obstruction it has to go through, my optimal is down to the soil like nature but I know this is very hard to achieve with just changing light sources, it sure can help, depending on the app
Again, I will repeat it many times cuz u don’t read, you scrog your led grow or any other method to keep everything at optimal levels, and it works most of the time but my simple question is was from the get go, is this initial output of each is enough ? 
To answer that question one can only answer himself, you say a and I say b, I believe what I saw and you believe what you saw
Not gonna change.


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## snakedope (Jun 4, 2022)

And when I say optimal, don’t get me wrong, you are optimal in relation to your hardware, not the sun in anyway.


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## xtsho (Jun 4, 2022)

I wonder how many LED vs HID threads there are on this forum.

Only 2 pages about 40 different threads.





__





Search results for query: led vs hid






www.rollitup.org






Changing the search parameters to LED vs HPS brings up 7 pages about 140 threads going back to 2006.





__





Search results for query: led vs HPS






www.rollitup.org





I'll mark my calendar so I can revisit this and see how many more are created in the next year.


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## Budzbuddha (Jun 4, 2022)

Me watching the Nerd Fight


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## xtsho (Jun 4, 2022)

Ford vs Chevy


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## Cannabisco (Jun 4, 2022)

snakedope said:


> .
> Also if they make 50 or 100 diodes into 1 will also be great, will be like 250w or 400w of HID (just to give you an idea somewhat)


Sounds like you are describing what cobs are.


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## farmingfisherman (Jun 4, 2022)

xtsho said:


> Ford vs Chevy
> 
> View attachment 5144213
> Bet that Chevy ate that ford for lunch!


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## xtsho (Jun 4, 2022)

Maybe

Much depends on the driver just as much depends on the grower.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 4, 2022)

snakedope said:


> You ask the wrong question,
> Penetration is an effect of a stronger wavelength source minus the obstruction it has to go through, my optimal is down to the soil like nature but I know this is very hard to achieve with just changing light sources, it sure can help, depending on the app
> Again, I will repeat it many times cuz u don’t read, you scrog your led grow or any other method to keep everything at optimal levels, and it works most of the time but my simple question is was from the get go, is this initial output of each is enough ?
> To answer that question one can only answer himself, you say a and I say b, I believe what I saw and you believe what you saw
> Not gonna change.


Bro, the problem with your theory is that you decided it was true before checking out the science, and you are now unwilling to be wrong. Your hard-headedness is likely your biggest downfall in life.


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## xtsho (Jun 4, 2022)




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## Kushash (Jun 4, 2022)




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## Cannabisco (Jun 4, 2022)

Honestly I don't know how someone can be disappointed with Cobs & led Qb's. It takes alot to impress me & I find the current led tech a fascinating artwork. Like how did they ever think to come up with such ideas & then to actually implement them. Kinda speechless & feel some what honored to be able to have such technology. Literally we moved the sun inside to use. If I ever have a grow issue I never contemplate that maybe it is the light. Because I know that's covered. I then proceed process of elimination & check temps, rh, vpd, ec, ph, run-off ppm & or check for pests or any other types of stressor. Yeah sometimes I may need to adjust light height & that's fairly straightforward, but I've never questioned the quality of light being provided. Simply because I know its getting all the correct types of spectrums & that light meters don't lie. If my end product result is sub par , I can't blame my equipment or Plant genetics.. I can only blame myself, & to learn from my mistakes, adapt & overcome.


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## hillbill (Jun 4, 2022)

Kushash said:


> View attachment 5144298


Smart Guy


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## hillbill (Jun 4, 2022)

I remember reading in some trade publication that “scientists had reached a breakthrough on the predictability on the effects of specific phosphors on blue light LED”, everything changed dramatically soon afterwards with White phosphor LEDs and so here we are.
Ten years ago I had some awesome Blurple going on.


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## snakedope (Jun 4, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Bro, the problem with your theory is that you decided it was true before checking out the science, and you are now unwilling to be wrong. Your hard-headedness is likely your biggest downfall in life.


That, or maybe I’m right and you have a hard time accepting it 
I know it’s hard to invest a lot of money on hype products that don’t really live to their claims, it’s much more harder to convince someone that is already neck deep into the LED game that maybe just maybe, someone took him for a spin... that’s ok though, this is a discussion about light, not about who is wrong or right, you decided I’m wrong, I decided your wrong lol does it matter ?
The most important thing is sharing knowledge, even if doesn’t comply to your own narrative.


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## rkymtnman (Jun 4, 2022)

snakedope said:


> The most important thing is sharing knowledge, even if doesn’t comply to your own narrative


what's your favorite color? 

mine's purple


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## Cannabisco (Jun 4, 2022)

rkymtnman said:


> what's your favorite color?
> 
> mine's purple


I've always had a weakness for blacklights.. pearlescent colors are nice too.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 4, 2022)

snakedope said:


> That, or maybe I’m right and you have a hard time accepting it
> I know it’s hard to invest a lot of money on hype products that don’t really live to their claims, it’s much more harder to convince someone that is already neck deep into the LED game that maybe just maybe, someone took him for a spin... that’s ok though, this is a discussion about light, not about who is wrong or right, you decided I’m wrong, I decided your wrong lol does it matter ?
> The most important thing is sharing knowledge, even if doesn’t comply to your own narrative.


LOL, bro I have HPS fixtures, CMH fixtures, and different types of LED fixtures. I didn't even pay for a couple of my fixtures as they were sent to me for free by the manufactures. In fact, I'm about to pull down my current rig of CMH plus LED boards to put up some bar type fixtures, because they are better to run this time of the year, now that it's warm. I run the CMH plus LED boards during the cold weather, for the added IR heat from the CMH. I've seen the differences under different lighting, and while I still have my HPS lamps, I have no reason to run them. If the quality was truely better under HPS, I'd get rid of all my LED fixtures today, but the reality is that I've had better yields and the same if not better quality under LED vs HPS. I ran HPS for years before running LED. I also started running LED very early in the game, and have blurple fixtures and old cob fixtures, that indeed are crap. Those fixtures were a poor buy, but I did get a couple of decent runs out of them before switching back to HPS. At this point however, modern LED fixtures are much better than HPS fixtures for growing. If you want top decide that I'm wrong, then that's your choice, however you are also deciding that experts on the subject are also wrong, and that College horticulture textbooks are also wrong. That would be kinda weird if you were right, and all the experts were wrong though. So far you've shown zero evidenct that you are right, but there is plenty of evidence that says you are wrong.

Oh, and when do we get to see some of your HPS grown buds, so that we can then post our LED grown buds that have more tricombs than yours?


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## f.r (Jun 4, 2022)

Praying next to your plants and letting the light of god help them grow is better than LED or HID. 

Checkmate athiests


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

I'm not going to read any more stupid shit about light intensity. The people who know what they're talking about are the people who know what they're talking about. And it's not the HPS crowd. I have nothing against HPS, but they are old technology and simply do not produce the same quality as LED. They have holes in their spectrum and are not very efficient. They produce buds alright – for 50% more energy consumed – and add unwanted heat to the grow room. Plus they have negligible UV and get pounded in cannabinoid tests commpared to UVA-enhanced LEDs.

I grew under HPS for 20 years, so why would I swtich to LED if I wasn't getting results? It's a bit disingenuous to assume that many LED growers are not already experienced HPS/CMH growers.

Here's some LED porn. All of these were grown under LED lights that I designed, FWIW.


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

f.r said:


> Praying next to your plants and letting the light of god help them grow is better than LED or HID.
> 
> Checkmate athiests


Dude, God created LEDs on the 7th Day because he wanted something decent to smoke while he chilled.


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## Rocket Soul (Jun 5, 2022)

Hey Snakeywakey, good morning! Ill happily go next: heres some photos from my buddys grow, i built him the light. The light ran at 100w ans replaced a 400w hps and increased yield, both in absolute amount and in g/w. Diode per diode was it was at at 0.075w per diode, about 10 lums per diode. Thats what, intensity of a full moon? The screen on my phone if im trying to save batteries? 


If those lums dont add up how did he get buds like that? Its would be like flowering in the moonlight. He got about 350g total, so 50 per square foot. Please explain. Also maybe show a grow where you can get similar or better results with hps: ie show me a 4x4 lit by a 250hps and show me about 2 pound yield. Should be easy as you are working with such superior equipment.


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 5, 2022)

Prawn Connery said:


> View attachment 5144582


Heeey oh how I love your red wig Prawn!!


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## blueberrymilkshake (Jun 5, 2022)

Prawn Connery said:


> Dude, God created LEDs on the 7th Day because he wanted something decent to smoke while he chilled.


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Rocket Soul said:


> Hey Snakeywakey, good morning! Ill happily go next: heres some photos from my buddys grow, i built him the light. The light ran at 100w ans replaced a 400w hps and increased yield, both in absolute amount and in g/w. Diode per diode was it was at at 0.075w per diode, about 10 lums per diode. Thats what, intensity of a full moon? The screen on my phone if im trying to save batteries?
> View attachment 5144188View attachment 5144189View attachment 5144190View attachment 5144191
> View attachment 5144594
> If those lums dont add up how did he get buds like that? Its would be like flowering in the moonlight. He got about 350g total, so 50 per square foot. Please explain. Also maybe show a grow where you can get similar or better results with hps: ie show me a 4x4 lit by a 250hps and show me about 2 pound yield. Should be easy as you are working with such superior equipment.


First off I just wanna say well done with that build it looks fantastic, also I want you to know that I am in no way bashing led tech, I use it, I love it, and I agree that it is better in almost every circumstance than hps.
The point I was trying to make is that while we can use multiple smaller sources of intensity(quantum board) rather than 1 source of intensity (hid) and add up the lux (ammount of light hitting a given surface) we cannot add up the lumens produced by each diode as lumens is a measure of how much light is produced by a single source and in all directions 

I have a 350r in my 3x3 right now, if I add another and space them out, yes double the photons are hitting that surface, and also yes the canopy will be better lit. And yes we might even notice there is more light reaching further into the canopy, but this is because there are more angles, so where some spots deeper into the canopy are now receiving more light than before, this happens because there are more sources hitting that spot from different angles, often unobstructed vs 1 source having to penetrate through said obstructions.

so yes more lux but not more lumens.

I’m not unwilling to be wrong at all, in fact I thank @Kassiopeija for schooling me as he obviously knows more than I.

and also I’m not trying to be the stick in the mud I just don’t believe that we can add up lumens unless they all came from the exact same spot which is physically impossible. I’m currently awaiting a reply from an optical physicist I chat with from time to time. Hopefully he will shed some light on the matter (pun intended)


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## lusidghost (Jun 5, 2022)

What I've taken away from all of this is that scrogging, lollipopping and defoliating are all probably beneficial to an LED grow. Defoliation would be the most debatable, scrogging would be the second most debatable and lollipopping would be almost undebatable.


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## lusidghost (Jun 5, 2022)

blueberrymilkshake said:


> View attachment 5144615


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Prawn Connery said:


> I'm not going to read any more stupid shit about light intensity. The people who know what they're talking about are the people who know what they're talking about. And it's not the HPS crowd. I have nothing against HPS, but they are old technology and simply do not produce the same quality as LED. They have holes in their spectrum and are not very efficient. They produce buds alright – for 50% more energy consumed – and add unwanted heat to the grow room. Plus they have negligible UV and get pounded in cannabinoid tests commpared to UVA-enhanced LEDs.
> 
> I grew under HPS for 20 years, so why would I swtich to LED if I wasn't getting results? It's a bit disingenuous to assume that many LED growers are not already experienced HPS/CMH growers.
> 
> ...


Would absolutely love to see some gla on the market in the U.K. is this something that might happen soon?


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## Horselover fat (Jun 5, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> First off I just wanna say well done with that build it looks fantastic, also I want you to know that I am in no way bashing led tech, I use it, I love it, and I agree that it is better in almost every circumstance than hps.
> The point I was trying to make is that while we can use multiple smaller sources of intensity(quantum board) rather than 1 source of intensity (hid) and add up the lux (ammount of light hitting a given surface) we cannot add up the lumens produced by each diode as lumens is a measure of how much light is produced by a single source and in all directions
> 
> I have a 350r in my 3x3 right now, if I add another and space them out, yes double the photons are hitting that surface, and also yes the canopy will be better lit. And yes we might even notice there is more light reaching further into the canopy, but this is because there are more angles, so where some spots deeper into the canopy are now receiving more light than before, this happens because there are more sources hitting that spot from different angles, often unobstructed vs 1 source having to penetrate through said obstructions.
> ...


Lux is lumen per area. Like umol/s vs ppfd. The total output of the lamp is one thing and what lands on a given spot is another. It doesn't matter how many sources there are. What matters is how many photons you produce and manage to direct to your grow area.


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Horselover fat said:


> Lux is lumen per area. Like umol/s vs ppfd. The total output of the lamp is one thing and what lands on a given spot is another. It doesn't matter how many sources there are. What matters is how many photons you produce and manage to direct to your grow area.


are you saying you can add lumens up? If you had 10 3lm bulbs would you say you have 30lm? So would 10 3lm bulbs at the same height as a 30lm bulb penetrate to the same depth as the 30lm source?


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## hillbill (Jun 5, 2022)

There are countries banning HPS bulbs because they are so damn inefficient. 
“On Paper” = measured light output. LEDs are the most efficient light source.


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> are you saying you can add lumens up? If you had 10 3lm bulbs would you say you have 30lm? So would 10 3lm bulbs at the same height as a 30lm bulb penetrate to the same depth as the 30lm source?


@Horselover fat
And if so, then why does a rail fixture need to sit closer to the canopy than a hps to achieve desired results?
When we use a rail type Led we are essentially spreading out the hot spot to more evenly cover a flat plane, but we can’t have it both ways, it can’t simultaneously penetrate as deep as the hps with its central hotspot and evenly spread that hotspot around the area we are trying to light. It has to be one or the other.


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## Horselover fat (Jun 5, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> are you saying you can add lumens up? If you had 10 3lm bulbs would you say you have 30lm? So would 10 3lm bulbs at the same height as a 30lm bulb penetrate to the same depth as the 30lm source?


I think it makes more sense to talk about photons instead of lumen. But, yes, ten times the light is ten times the light. The light is then spread to an area. Changing the area the light lands on changes the intensity (lux/ppfd). If you take the multiple sources further from each other you increase the area the light lands on, which decreases intensity. Same thing happens if you light up a larger area using a single source.


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Horselover fat said:


> I think it makes more sense to talk about photons instead of lumen. But, yes, ten times the light is ten times the light. The light is then spread to an area. Changing the area the light lands on changes the intensity (lux/ppfd). If you take the multiple sources further from each other you increase the area the light lands on, which decreases intensity. Same thing happens if you light up a larger area using a single source.


Right I’m following what ur saying, so when we use a rail type fixture we’re increasing the uniformity of intensity across the canopy? 
but if we use a single source we’re increasing the intensity in the Center?
So if there’s more intensity in the Center would it not be fair to say that we are penetrating deeper into the canopy at that point than we would with multiple sources that all total the same power value?


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## hillbill (Jun 5, 2022)

No


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

hillbill said:


> No


Just no?


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## hillbill (Jun 5, 2022)

Yes


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## blueberrymilkshake (Jun 5, 2022)

@MarsHydrofactory is really missing out on the good times here.


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

Can we stop using the word "lux" please? Lux is for lumens. Lumens are for humans. Lux is biased towards the green area of the spectrum. Photons are photons and they can most definitely be counted! Far Red has very little weighting in terms of lumens (as in, no weighting at all!) and yet Far Red most definitely drives photosynthesis. So does UVA for that matter – again, not counted in lumens/flux.


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

You can also throw the Inverse Square law out the window because that only applies to a single light source. LEDs provide many sources of light from all different angles that are able to penetrate better than a single light source because . . .

. . . because nothing happens to a photon unless something gets in its way. It keeps travelling – from one edge of the universe to the other – until it interacts with something.

If you hold an open umbrella and I tip a bucket of water over you (HPS = single source of water) then most likely you will stay dry. But if I set spray nozzles all around you outside the protection of the umbrella (LED = multiple sources of water) and pump the same amount of water through, you are going to get very wet!

Is it that hard to understand why multiple sources of light offer better canopy penetration than singles sources? Leaves are like a bunch of tiny umbrellas – the only way to get through them is to go under or around them. Only a very, very small amount of light (mostly green and far red) penetrates the epeidermis of the leaf, and none-to-almost none penetrates through both sides.


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

hillbill said:


> No


Correct. I don't think he gets it. He forgets that leaves get in the way . . .


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Prawn Connery said:


> Can we stop using the word "lux" please? Lux is for lumens. Lumens are for humans. Lux is biased towards the green area of the spectrum. Photons are photons and they can most definitely be counted! Far Red has very little weighting in terms of lumens (as in, no weighting at all!) and yet Far Red most definitely drives photosynthesis. So does UVA for that matter – again, not counted in lumens/flux.


I agree totally, but first I think we need to actually define lumen so people understand better. 

the SI unit of luminous flux, equal to the amount of light emitted per second in a unit solid angle of one steradian from a uniform source of one candela.

and That’s it, there’s no other definition.


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> Heeey oh how I love your red wig Prawn!!


Does it freak you out that I'm a woman? Psst, it's actually pink


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Prawn Connery said:


> You can also throw the Inverse Square law out the window because that only applies to a single light source. LEDs provide many sources of light from all different angles that are able to penetrate better than a single light source because . . .
> 
> . . . because nothing happens to a photon unless something gets in its way. It keeps travelling – from one edge of the universe to the other – until it interacts with something.
> 
> ...


Then please explain why we need to hang a rail type fixture closer to the canopy than an hps? Why don’t rooms with high bay hps just switch to rail lights hung at the same


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> I agree totally, but first I think we need to actually define lumen so people understand better.





Blue brother said:


> the SI unit of luminous flux, equal to the amount of light emitted per second in a unit solid angle of one steradian from a uniform source of one candela.
> 
> and That’s it, there’s no other definition.



No. We don't need to define lumen, because it has nothing to do with "radiant flux". Plants don't "see" lumens – they "see" photons and abosorb different spectra according to their pigments.

I should have quantified my plea to not use the term "luminous flux" (which you have been using) instead of just "lux" – my bad.



> Luminous flux, or luminous power, is the measure of the perceived power of light. *It differs from the measure of the total power of light emitted, termed 'radiant flux', in that the former takes into account the varying sensitivity of the human eye to different wavelengths of light*.


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> Then please explain why we need to hang a rail type fixture closer to the canopy than an hps? Why don’t rooms with high bay hps just switch to rail lights hung at the same


Because high bay fixtures have overlapping light that strikes from different angles. A light mover moves the angle of incidence so that photons can go under and around leaves, penetrating the gaps in the canopy.


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

Please refer to my umbrella analogy.


> If you hold an open umbrella and I tip a bucket of water over you (HPS = single source of water) then most likely you will stay dry. But if I set spray nozzles all around you outside the protection of the umbrella (LED = multiple sources of water) and pump the same amount of water through, you are going to get very wet!


You will not immediately get as wet as a single dump of water over your head, but the combined power of those nozzles will make you just as wet had you not been holding an umbrella at all. That is the power of LEDs – they are able to hit the canopy at many different angles of incidence, which increases (vastly) the odds of each photon finding a gap to penetrate through.


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Prawn Connery said:


> No. We don't need to define lumen, because it has nothing to do with "radiant flux". Plants don't "see" lumens – they "see" photons and abosorb different spectra according to their pigments.
> 
> I should have quantified my plea to not use the term "luminous flux" (which you have been using) instead of just "lux" – my bad.


my argument is that we can’t add up lumens from different sources because lumens by definition come from a single uniform source and that’s it. I’m not bashing leds or hps, I use both in different circumstances. Led more often than not! And if u read my earlier posts you will see that up until you chimed in I was the only person to actually speak about light coming from multiple angles and bypassing the canopy obstructions.
My point was simple, you can’t add lumens from different sources up because again by definition a lumen is a measure from one uniform source


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Prawn Connery said:


> Please refer to my umbrella analogy.
> 
> You will not immediately get as wet as a single dump of water over your head, but over time, the combined power of those nozzles will make you just as wet had you not been holding an umbrella at all. That is the power of LEDs – they are able to hit the canopy at many different angles of incidence, which increases (vastly) the odds of each photon finding a gap to penetrate through.


I know this I said the same about 6 pages ago


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Prawn Connery said:


> Because high bay fixtures have overlapping light that strikes from different angles. A light mover moves the angle of incidence so that photons can go under and around leaves, penetrating the gaps in the canopy.


Im not sure you have answered the question, why can’t we hang the rail light up in the same position as the hps? And expect the same growth at 3ft into the canopy?


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> Im not sure you have answered the question, why can’t we hang the rail light up in the same position as the hps? And expect the same growth at 3ft into the canopy?


Not trying to be a dick, u obviously know ur stuff! So please, enlighten me.


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## Billy the Mountain (Jun 5, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> ...
> My point was simple, you can’t add lumens from different sources up because again by definition a lumen is a measure from one uniform source


That's preposterous


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

Sorry for turbo posting but I'm just responding to posts as I read them.

The idea behind light movers is not only to provide an even canopy, but to change the angle of incidence of the main light to allow better penetration through the gaps in the canopy.

This is exactly what happens in nature! The sun is almost never directly overhead – it traces an arc over the horizon and lights different parts of the plant as it moves.

OK, let's try this:

A coconut palm is on the equator. It is noon and the sun is directly overhead. The shadow on the ground is the same shape as the canopy. Only the top canopy is lit – the trunk of the palm tree is in the shade.

Five hours later the sun is on the horizon. The shadow has changed: you can now see an outline of the whole palm tree – canopy, trunk, coconuts and all! The sun is now lighting parts of the plant that were not lit when it was directly overhead.

So where did humans get the idea that you have to hang a light directly over the top of a plant?

Even when I grew with HPS, I never hung bulbs over the tops of my plants:



One of the same plants at harvest – note how thick it is all the way through.


Here's an even better example of side lighting:


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## Horselover fat (Jun 5, 2022)

Wow, i ate a burger and there's a whole page more




Blue brother said:


> Right I’m following what ur saying, so when we use a rail type fixture we’re increasing the uniformity of intensity across the canopy?
> but if we use a single source we’re increasing the intensity in the Center?
> So if there’s more intensity in the Center would it not be fair to say that we are penetrating deeper into the canopy at that point than we would with multiple sources that all total the same power value?


Kind of, but the single source could spread the evenly (in theory, and not taking counting shadows). What I'm saying is you got a bucketful of water and you pour it in your tent. How thick of a layer of water you get on the floor depends on the size of you tent. It doesn't matter if you pour it in from one spot or a hundred spots as long as it all ends up in the tent.


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> my argument is that we can’t add up lumens from different sources because lumens by definition come from a single uniform source and that’s it. I’m not bashing leds or hps, I use both in different circumstances. Led more often than not! And if u read my earlier posts you will see that up until you chimed in I was the only person to actually speak about light coming from multiple angles and bypassing the canopy obstructions.
> My point was simple, you can’t add lumens from different sources up because again by definition a lumen is a measure from one uniform source


You are being dogmatic. Your lumen argument really has nothing to do with the best way to grow plants. I'm sorry, but until you can get past the dogma of semantics, you will not see the light (pun intended).


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Horselover fat said:


> Wow, i ate a burger and there's a whole page more
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Prawn Connery said:


> You are being dogmatic. Your lumen argument really has nothing to do with the best way to grow plants. I'm sorry, but until you can get past the dogma of semantics, you will not see the light (pun intended).


My lumen argument wasn’t bashing leds or you or anyone for that matter, someone posted and said you can add lumens up, I replied and said that’s not possible. That’s it, somehow in the process of explaining why, I’ve been put in the corner with the troll. Now getting posts from so many other people going on as if I’m saying hid is better than led, which it’s not! Multiple sources that deliver the same amount of photons to the canopy =BETTER. I agree with that, I’ve been saying that since the start of the thread


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## hillbill (Jun 5, 2022)

Some already expand current PAR charts on each end for deep/far red and UV, neither is even counted now. We can’t see them and lumens are really not relevant here.


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> My lumen argument wasn’t bashing leds or you or anyone for that matter, someone posted and said you can add lumens up, I replied and said that’s not possible. That’s it, somehow in the process of explaining why, I’ve been put in the corner with the troll. Now getting posts from so many other people going on as if I’m saying hid is better than led, which it’s not! Multiple sources that deliver the same amount of photons to the canopy =BETTER. I agree with that, I’ve been saying that since the start of the thread


Thankyou @Rocket Soul for liking this post, I hope u don’t think my constant battle at explaining this is a dig at you, cause it’s not, at first I just tried to explain one thing I didn’t agree with that you said, I agreed on everything else and by the way the thread reads from the start you can see we are pretty much on exactly the same page. Somehow to people just reading the last couple of pages before commenting I come across as someone who is slating led tech, which is definitely not the case at all.


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## Horselover fat (Jun 5, 2022)

@Blue brother it really does feel like a bombardment when multiple people reply, even if noone means it like that.


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Horselover fat said:


> @Blue brother it really does feel like a bombardment when multiple people reply, even if noone means it like that.


Thanks mate


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 5, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> and said you can add lumens up, I replied and said that’s not possible.


it's possible as that is what is happening in nature. you take 2 flashlights now into a dark basement and partially overlap their cones, there you can see it will be brighter where it overlaps.
that definition you cited is very base and doesn't forbid to calculate an integral over both as in treating both as single incidents and combining the result or do an approximation.
I mean regardless of whatever metric you use you may find it logically that its the light density that's being calculated, with a higher density equating more brightness and its irrelevant in that regard from which direction or how many sources the light was derived.

as for the fixture height it's about minimum distance, equal spread...the 1000w HPS in a closed hood doesn't benefit from a close proximity but a rail LED can. But the rail also can be mounted up high if the room setup allows it why not? as long as mostly the leaves get hit and not the light flies out of the next window...

from @Samwell Seed Well :





see they are both up high at the ceiling
it's about canopy PPFD


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> Thanks mate


Mate, I'm sorry if it seems we're ganging up on you. We're just trying (all of us) to explain to you why lumens (and luminous flux) have no real place in this argument, as well as the rationale behind light movers.

HPS should not be written off so easily and there are cases where it can penetrate deeper than LED – but perhaps not for the reasons you are thinking.

HPS emits a lot of green light. Green light penetrates the epidermis of plants to activate chloroplasts deeper within the leaf cell structure. These chloroplasts do not get activated as much by red and blue light, which do not penetrate through the leaf as effectively. Far Red light also penetrates the epidermis more effectively than red and blue light, and HPS also emits more Far Red than typical CRI70/80 white-phosphor LEDs that use a 450nm blue pump and are used in most LED horticultural fixtures (but not ours). These LEDs typically have little to no Far Red. Warm coloured CRI90-95 LEDs (2700-3000K etc) however, do emit similar amounts of Far Red.

This is all going somewhere – trust me.

Now plants are green, right? That doesn't mean they don't use green light. On the contrary! They photosynthesise it more efficiently. My (personal) theory is that is the reason why leaves are green: because they reflect the most efficient and abundant spectrum into the lower canopy, where fewer photons of green light can have the same photosynthetic value as more photons of red and blue light (that do not activate as many chloroplasts in the leaf).

So HPS can penetrate further by proxy – it produces more green light (and more far red light than typical LEDs) which is reflected deeper into the canopy. That is something that I think LED growers sometimes forget.

There are other reasons why HPS still performs well.

For the last 40 or so years cannabis has been selectively grown and bred under HPS. So any particular plant that performed well under HPS was bred from over successive generations. This means that cannabis has been selectively bred to perform well under HPS for decades. That will likely change as LEDs take over.

Another reason HPS can perform well is that is inefficient. WHAT?!? Yes, it produces more infrared heat than LED (converts more energy to heat than light compared to LED), but metabolic warmth is needed by all living things to speed up the organic processes (chemical reactions) of life. LED grows can suffer when there is not enough warmth – and cannabis especially needs warmth to thrive – so sometimes it is a good idea to throw a HPS or CMH lamp into a LED grow to increase ambient temperatures in the grow room/area. We even tell growers to do this if their rooms are too cold over winter.

All up, it is actually very hard to beat a HPS grow for overall yield where all the correct parameters are adhered to. That means having the optimum number of plants in the optimum area under the optimum amount of light with optimum nutrients and training. For any given area that has all these "optimum" levels, HPS can yield on par with LED.

HOWEVER! HPS will need around 50% more energy to do it, and the quality will never equal a UVA-enhanced LED fixture because there is not enough blue, violet and UVA light of higher energy to stress the plant into producing higher levels of secondary metabolitee (ie: cannabinoids).

So give HPS its due, but don't forget that it is 60-year-old technology that has been surpassed by LED technology that is only getting cheaper and more efficient by the day. HPS really has nowhere else to improve. Double-ended HPS may be better than single-ended fixtures, but that's about as good as it gets – or is likley to ever get – now that the world is switching to LED technology over HIDs.


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

For those who have been paying attention, yes that is a woman in a pink wig in the photos I posted. But no, it is not me (I'm a guy – sorry fellas).

She is an awesome grower. And she loves my lights


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Prawn Connery said:


> Mate, I'm sorry if it seems we're ganging up on you. We're just trying (all of us) to explain to you why lumens (and luminous flux) have no real place in this argument, as well as the rationale behind light movers.
> 
> HPS should not be written off so easily and there are cases where it can penetrate deeper than LED – but perhaps not for the reasons you are thinking.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with what you’ve said, I never said anything to the contrary.

I wasn’t trying to say that lumens are important to plants as I also know this is not the case

I was simply stating that lumens from multiple sources can’t be added together.

and I fully understand that green and far red can transition through the leaf, in school we used a leaf filter on a cardboard tube that we looked at a light source through.

My secondary point was that seeing as the single source will have a hotspot in the Center then more light will pass THROUGH (not around) the leaf under this hot spot than it would if there were multiple sources delivering the same number of photons more evenly across the canopy


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## Billy the Mountain (Jun 5, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> I totally agree with what you’ve said, I never said anything to the contrary.
> 
> I wasn’t trying to say that lumens are important to plants as I also know this is not the case
> 
> ...


Respectfully, that's just not how it works


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> it's possible as that is what is happening in nature. you take 2 flashlights now into a dark basement and partially overlap their cones, there you can see it will be brighter where it overlaps.
> that definition you cited is very base and doesn't forbid to calculate an integral over both as in treating both as single incidents and combining the result or do an approximation.
> I mean regardless of whatever metric you use you may find it logically that its the light density that's being calculated, with a higher density equating more brightness and its irrelevant in that regard from which direction or how many sources the light was derived.
> 
> ...


First of all thanks for the reply.

As you said, when we add more sources we are indeed increasing the light density where the light from both sources overlap. However we are not increasing the source intensity, which can only be done by changing the source.

Also I am not saying that people can’t position a rail light up high, people can do whatever they want, but the higher we position the light then the more air (obstacle) this light must pass through.
Which causes attenuation both by scattering and absorption but also reflection which in turn is reflected and absorbed by the lining of the space. We do not grow in a vacuum. And leds typically have multiple smaller cones that end up sending light down in a cube shape, whereas for the most part of it (not all of it) a single source hps with a decent reflector will send light down in a pyramid shape, meaning less air is in contact with the light on the way down to the canopy, which in turn means more light will hit the canopy.

Edit: tight config qb negate this to some effect and cobs do a bit better still


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## PopAndSonGrows (Jun 5, 2022)

Debacco University on YouTube goes into this.

Long story short; it's situationally dependent.


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 5, 2022)

double the source, double the light. or x300 it's additive if we think about number of total photons trapped inside a closed growroom

as long as we ignore UVC the loss from air is greatly irrelevant


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 5, 2022)

Prawn Connery said:


> Another reason HPS can perform well is that is inefficient. WHAT?!? Yes,


it's certainly harder to judge the correct light output on LED and at some point, too much light will just create problems that won't go away by treating "a deficiency" with fertilizer


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 5, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> my argument is that we can’t add up lumens from different sources because lumens by definition come from a single uniform source and that’s it.


You are arguing semantics at this point. You could also consider the "source" to be a fixture which is comprised of hundreds of diodes, similar to the way we view COBs and the electrodes on a HPS lamp to be a single source.


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> double the source, double the light. or x300 it's additive if we think about number of total photons trapped inside a closed growroom
> 
> as long as we ignore UVC the loss from air is greatly irrelevant


This doesn’t seem irrelevant to me, are you taking into account Rayleigh scattering. And also there is so much more reflection happening with a rail fixture hung high than say a cob or hid. Most peoples grow linings are less than the initial 98% claim which doesn’t take into account contaminants that are statically collected on said lining.


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## Blue brother (Jun 5, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> You are arguing semantics at this point. You could also consider the "source" to be a fixture which is comprised of hundreds of diodes, similar to the way we view COBs and the electrodes on a HPS lamp to be a single source.


I’ve had no option but to argue the same point for so long which makes me look like a mad man or someone with an agenda. But that’s because I believe what I initially said to be the truth. The point I made certainly doesn’t warrant the amount of times I’ve had to defend myself about it. I stand by it, and I’ll say it again lumens can’t be added because they come from a single source only lux can be the cumulative value.

I’ve also said many times that cobs are closer to single source than qb panels and qb panels are closer than qb strip rail fixtures. But it’s not the electrodes In an hid lamp that are the source it is the arc which is a single source.

It certainly makes me look like an idiot to newcomers of the thread, who are just reading a couple pages with other peoples reply’s which insinuate I’ve bashed led vs hps when I’ve never at any point done that.


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 5, 2022)

Semantics aside, I consider a lighting fixture to be a "single source".


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## xtsho (Jun 5, 2022)

This is what I have in my flower tent. Does the job. No complaints. 4+ years of operation for $150. Probably 4 more years of operation left at least. I also have a 1000 watt magnetic ballast that's bulletproof like the old Subarus from the 80's. 

A friend just gave me all their grow equipment so I now have another 600 watt digital ballast and sealed hood. I have a 4 ft 4 bulb HO T5 and a 100 watt Vivosun VS 1000. I'm running the VS1000 in the veg tent right now. The T5 is my favorite for starting seedlings and for the first few weeks.


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## hillbill (Jun 5, 2022)

Those Subarus had real head gasket issues


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## PJ Diaz (Jun 5, 2022)

I sold my 1985 Mercedes diesel last yesr. Those engines are rated to run for over 650k miles, but everything starts falling apart way before that. I sold mine with a bit under 300k on the odometer. I miss it about as much as I miss my HPS fixtures.


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

xtsho said:


> This is what I have in my flower tent. Does the job. No complaints. 4+ years of operation for $150. Probably 4 more years of operation left at least. I also have a 1000 watt magnetic ballast that's bulletproof like the old Subarus from the 80's.
> 
> A friend just gave me all their grow equipment so I now have another 600 watt digital ballast and sealed hood. I have a 4 ft 4 bulb HO T5 and a 100 watt Vivosun VS 1000. I'm running the VS1000 in the veg tent right now. The T5 is my favorite for starting seedlings and for the first few weeks.


Haha! "Magnetic ballasts" and "reliable" in the same sentence. And just like a Subaru with a rusty exhaust, they get louder and louder . . . until they burn out! My mate's got a huge magnetic ballast graveyard. It includes some of my old ones.

Ooh! And remember the days when you had to stagger all your magnetic ballasts when they switched on to avoid a sudden current surge tripping your breakers? Fun times!

But seriously, yes they work. And they are loud and inefficient. But the most important thing is you are growing buds


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## xtsho (Jun 5, 2022)

hillbill said:


> Those Subarus had real head gasket issues


I have a 1988 XT.


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> But it’s not the electrodes In an hid lamp that are the source it is the arc which is a single source.


Which part of the arc? And how do you quantify your "single source" theory when in fact the emissions along the arc are not linnear due to the fact the hottest part of the sodium gas is near the electrode – hence why double electrode HPS arcs are more efficient than single.

You also do know that the "arc" is not the source of the light: it is the electrons from the individual sodium atoms that rise and fall to a new state, releasing a photon as they fall that is the source of the light – and your "lumens".

So your "single source" is not the HPS lamp and it is not the arc and it is not even the sodium vapour or plasma – it is the individual charged electrons or ions.

How do you explain your theory now?


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 5, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> My secondary point was that seeing as the single source will have a hotspot in the Center then more light will pass THROUGH (not around) the leaf under this hot spot than it would if there were multiple sources delivering the same number of photons more evenly across the canopy


Firstly, it depends on the translucence of the individual leaf. Even if the leaves are somewhat translucent, your light might only be able to penetrate one leaf before it is blocked by the second leaf.

This also assumes that the light intensity is such that it is able to pass through a leaf without causing irrepairable damage to the cells as the light imparts heat energy as it passes through. Just how long those leaves would survive without burning would depend on the variety of plant.


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## Horselover fat (Jun 6, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> This doesn’t seem irrelevant to me, are you taking into account Rayleigh scattering. And also there is so much more reflection happening with a rail fixture hung high than say a cob or hid. Most peoples grow linings are less than the initial 98% claim which doesn’t take into account contaminants that are statically collected on said lining.


Athmospheric scattering is irrelevant in a grow. Distances are much too short for it to have any effect. Wall losses are a thing. I would want to see reflectors on led fixtures.


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 6, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> This doesn’t seem irrelevant to me, are you taking into account Rayleigh scattering. And also there is so much more reflection happening with a rail fixture hung high than say a cob or hid. Most peoples grow linings are less than the initial 98% claim which doesn’t take into account contaminants that are statically collected on said lining.


it is because the light will loose only a tiny fraction of its energy but ultimately each photon will still drive photosynthesis equally as it only needs 680nm or 700nm even 780nm to do so


Blue brother said:


> I’ve had no option but to argue the same point for so long which makes me look like a mad man or someone with an agenda. But that’s because I believe what I initially said to be the truth. The point I made certainly doesn’t warrant the amount of times I’ve had to defend myself about it. I stand by it, and I’ll say it again lumens can’t be added because they come from a single source only lux can be the cumulative value.
> 
> I’ve also said many times that cobs are closer to single source than qb panels and qb panels are closer than qb strip rail fixtures. But it’s not the electrodes In an hid lamp that are the source it is the arc which is a single source.
> 
> It certainly makes me look like an idiot to newcomers of the thread, who are just reading a couple pages with other peoples reply’s which insinuate I’ve bashed led vs hps when I’ve never at any point done that.


Plants are 3-dimensional though leaves may be appromixated to a 2-d plane.
A singular point light-source is 1-d.
So it's when the light reaches a leaf area where the relevant action is happening. How that light was generated or how a simplified formulae tries to desribe its generation is irrelevant as, all things considered, it's not a realistic representation of the world.
But it may work in the way humans work with it. It's basically like in our worldly situation the Newtonian laws of gravity are still true though you already cannot truely calculate the orbit of Mercur with it. There's an error within it and the greater the dimension we use it breaks down at some point. Same with lumens, it's an ideal formulae. A HPS light-origin is no point either it's a rod. My luxmeter shows different numbers at various sides but at the same distance. It's without reflector.


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## Horselover fat (Jun 6, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> Plants are 3-dimensional though leaves may be appromixated to a 2-d plane.
> A singular point light-source is 1-d.


I 'm not sure I follow. I would think a point source radiates in a sphere to all directions.


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 6, 2022)

Prawn Connery said:


> Firstly, it depends on the translucence of the individual leaf. Even if the leaves are somewhat translucent, your light might only be able to penetrate one leaf before it is blocked by the second leaf.
> 
> This also assumes that the light intensity is such that it is able to pass through a leaf without causing irrepairable damage to the cells as the light imparts heat energy as it passes through. Just how long those leaves would survive without burning would depend on the variety of plant.


though there is some merrit to his point as leaves can be somewhat flexible and react to the light environment. for example, there have been studies comparing leaf chlorophly content indoor vs outdoors and outdoors had way less, so a leaf would allow more light to transmit through. which, considering outdoor the sun is way more harsh, is a method of protection when still being able to run photosynthesis at a max speed

but still, the higher you blast the tops the more will be lost as heat that's why a uniform spread is way better than hotspots coming from individual strong lightsources


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 6, 2022)

Horselover fat said:


> I 'm not sure I follow. I would think a point source radiates in a sphere to all directions.


this is in response of his claim about "but lumen not lux"... like you posted correctly pages ago "lux is lumen over area". he still doesnt get it and is transfixed at a very base formulae that does nowhere correctly describe the situation as is


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 6, 2022)

Blue brother said:


> and I’ll say it again lumens can’t be added because they come from a single source only lux can be the cumulative value.


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 6, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> Horselover fat said:
> 
> 
> > I 'm not sure I follow. I would think a point source radiates in a sphere to all directions.
> ...


If he is talking about a "single source" then the only "true" single source of light must be a single photon emitted by a single atom/molecule – all other sources of light are a combination of photons emitted from a cluster of atoms/molecules. Each of those atoms/molecules occupies a different position in space/time, so therefore these clusters cannot all be from the same SINGLE SOURCE.

To wit: a single photo emits in only one direction.

Addendum: a single photon may have a wavelegnth that falls outside 400-700nm, so is not even guaranteed to be counted in terms of "luminous flux".

If you are going to stick to the dogma of "single source" then you have to be true to its definition. An arc tube, by definition, emits multiple photons from multiple sources of individual ions. Each of those ions is a "single source" of light (electromagnetic radiation).

@Blue brother – what are the parameters of your "single source" argument?


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## Prawn Connery (Jun 6, 2022)

P.S. If you are going to hold to your ideals in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, then unfortunately it will appear that the world is ganging up on you. The world is not ganging up on you; your argument simply falls outside the consensus of human logic and current understanding.

It's nothing personal.


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## bk78 (Jun 6, 2022)

Wonder what happened to dopesnake?


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## Blue brother (Jun 6, 2022)

Prawn Connery said:


> If he is talking about a "single source" then the only "true" single source of light must be a single photon emitted by a single atom/molecule – all other sources of light are a combination of photons emitted from a cluster of atoms/molecules. Each of those atoms/molecules occupies a different position in space/time, so therefore these clusters cannot all be from the same SINGLE SOURCE.
> 
> To wit: a single photo emits in only one direction.
> 
> ...


Single source = single source of excitation i.e arc vs multiple sources of excitation I.e many semiconductors

and like I’ve said many times, I know lumens and lux are for humans, not plants. I’m not the one who started using this si. Ppf ppfd are not perfect (if we consider phytochrome triggering by wavelengths outside of the par spectrum) but much better suited to growing plants than lumens. In fact I’d find that a W/S @ specific λ would be a far more useful measurement that we just don’t see in horticulture except in the y of spectral analysis graph.
All I said is we can’t add lumens together from different sources because by definition lumens are measured from a single source. We can add up the lux as it is a measure of light recieved by something. Look at our testing methods, a single hid in an integrating sphere and a single diode in an integrating sphere.
That’s why each diode has its own value and each hid has its own value


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## Blue brother (Jun 6, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> this is in response of his claim about "but lumen not lux"... like you posted correctly pages ago "lux is lumen over area". he still doesnt get it and is transfixed at a very base formulae that does nowhere correctly describe the situation as is


I totally understand it, we all know that reception is cumulative. I made one point and yes it was lexically semantic, but I only said it once, more of an fyi. Somehow you either think that lm is the same as lm/m2 or you wanna hang me for being semantic. Which is it? What don’t u think I get?


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## Blue brother (Jun 6, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> though there is some merrit to his point as leaves can be somewhat flexible and react to the light environment. for example, there have been studies comparing leaf chlorophly content indoor vs outdoors and outdoors had way less, so a leaf would allow more light to transmit through. which, considering outdoor the sun is way more harsh, is a method of protection when still being able to run photosynthesis at a max speed
> 
> but still, the higher you blast the tops the more will be lost as heat that's why a uniform spread is way better than hotspots coming from individual strong lightsources


I totally agree and haven’t ever and would never say anything to the contrary


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## Blue brother (Jun 6, 2022)

To be honest there was a post I made at daft o’clock with a belly fulla rum n ginger beer. That makes no sense at all. And I’m more than willing to point this out as it makes me cringe when I read it back lol



Blue brother said:


> Yes I concede. When we talk about intensity as our perception of how many photons hit given surface in a certain amount of time then that is correct and yes we can add this up and we do measure for his in lux (how many photons we can perceive hit our eyes) What I am referring to is the intensity of the wave. The unit is watts/steradian. Energy flux is determined By the output and also the ability of light to move through something, in our case air or leaves. The intensity of the wave is directionally proportionate to the square of its amplitude (sure I’ve got that right… haha it’s been a while). So unless we change the amplitude, we cannot change the intensity. Yes different frequency waves carry more or less energy at the same amplitude but not more intensity. When we add another identical source all we are doing is adding more waves, not changing the amplitude or intensity of the wave.
> When we look at luminous intensity all we are doing is counting the number of photons/space/time and forgetting about the wave. We must concerntrate on the wave if we want to determine the power of the light which directly correlates with the distance it can travel or depth it can penetrate.
> 
> although I am an optical engineer by trade this was a very long time ago so someone may be able to point out a mistake I’ve made, but I’m pretty sure what I’ve said is solid.
> ...


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## Blue brother (Jun 6, 2022)

I am getting tired of this now, so much debate over semantics, I feel I’ve made my point clear. And seeing as there is nothing to be gained by furthering this argument, I’m going to withdraw it. The fact that I’m receiving reply’s with comments like “hardly matters” “for the most part” “irrelevant in a grow” “might only penetrate one leaf” shows an unwillingness to look at my claims in an absolute sense. I never said hid was better than led, quite the opposite actually. I simply stated physical functions of light and also abit of semantics when it comes to the definition of lumen. 

It seems everyone just wants to hear leds are better in every sense and hid is shite. No one wants to take into account the physical function of light in absolute terms.


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## Billy the Mountain (Jun 6, 2022)

When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!


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## Blue brother (Jun 6, 2022)

Billy the Mountain said:


> When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!


Yeah I am.


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## snakedope (Nov 6, 2022)

Blue brother nailed it better then I can ever do, some folks here don’t like the truth, and it shows and hurts them for whatever reason.

That’s ok with me though, reality don’t lie, ages of knowledge (Blue Brother) can’t be overrun by kids who play with diodes for couple of years
This tech will improve in time I think, for now sticking with HPS/CMH will give the best results, as far as I’ve seen.


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## bk78 (Nov 6, 2022)

lusidghost said:


> Yeah, I'm just calling you a pussy. I'm from a red state and I post pictures. They won't sentence me to death like in Malaysia though.


ayyyy


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## snakedope (Nov 6, 2022)

Hmm ok, put knowledge pussy ! Oh wait you can’t. 
that goes for u too BK78, put opinions or knowledge, ahh you can’t either.

Peace


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## bk78 (Nov 6, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Hmm ok, put knowledge pussy ! Oh wait you can’t.
> that goes for u too BK78, put opinions or knowledge, ahh you can’t either.
> 
> Peace


Kinda like you can’t even show us a plant you’ve grown eh?

crusty ass socks


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## Billy the Mountain (Nov 6, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Blue brother nailed it better then I can ever do, some folks here don’t like the truth, and it shows and hurts them for whatever reason.
> 
> That’s ok with me though, reality don’t lie, ages of knowledge (Blue Brother) can’t be overrun by kids who play with diodes for couple of years
> This tech will improve in time I think, for now *sticking with HPS/CMH will give the best results, as far as I’ve seen*.


Facts say otherwise

Science is real


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## lusidghost (Nov 6, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Hmm ok, put knowledge pussy ! Oh wait you can’t.
> that goes for u too BK78, put opinions or knowledge, ahh you can’t either.
> 
> Peace


I have no idea what we were even talking about. That comment was from the beginning of the summer.

This was BK when he saw that you responded this morning:


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## snakedope (Nov 6, 2022)

Billy the Mountain said:


> Facts say otherwise
> 
> Science is real


Show us the facts then
Science is real indeed, not all of it sadly.


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## bk78 (Nov 6, 2022)

snakedope said:


> Show us the facts then
> Science is real indeed, not all of it sadly.


You show your 4x8, I’ll show mine. Pretty easy to compare imo?


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## Scuzzman (Nov 6, 2022)

good to see the RUI trolls and socks are still around pushing there own narrative.... facts are facts , tech moves on - shame people dont


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## HippieFarmer420 (Nov 6, 2022)

Damn, I skipped from page 1 to 22 and this shit did a complete 180, what did I miss, maybe I need to go back a couple of pages.. 

As far as HPS vs LED, I am still too early to make my own assumptions, I know the data, it's obvious LED's do save on electric costs, but it's also hard to beat an hps light that you paid 200 buxs for over 17 years ago and it's still working strong "good ole betty".

In the end I still see how LED's are the way forward, even old stubborn heads like myself are starting to jump over on the wagon " you couldn't talk me into this a few years ago, but they are making amazing progress with these lights".


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## HippieFarmer420 (Nov 6, 2022)

Back when I first starting growing "in the early 2000's" there was not talk about LED's nor PPFD or par meters, we had t5's, 8's and HID's..

I did not start learning about PPFD and proper amounts for each stage until this year, 17 years after doing this, so it will be interesting to see going forward how my grows change by using par meters and new lights..

I know by heart what the old style of growing produces, Im very excited to see what all these new develops do to my garden, I feel like Im back in my early 20's and learning everything all over again.


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## xtsho (Nov 6, 2022)

I still flower under a 600 watt HPS. I'm extremely happy with the results and don't give a damn what someone else is using to light their grow.

If anyone has a problem with the way I grow well then they can:


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## HippieFarmer420 (Nov 6, 2022)

xtsho said:


> I still flower under a 600 watt HPS. I'm extremely happy with the results and don't give a damn what someone else is using to light their grow.
> 
> If anyone has a problem with the way I grow well then they can:


Ive used HID's for years, just this year I starting getting LED's, I think the HID will always have a special place for me, it's what I learned to grow on.


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## xtsho (Nov 6, 2022)

HippieFarmer420 said:


> Ive used HID's for years, just this year I starting getting LED's, I think the HID will always have a special place for me, it's what I learned to grow on.


I have an LED in my veg tent.


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## snakedope (Nov 7, 2022)

HippieFarmer420 said:


> Back when I first starting growing "in the early 2000's" there was not talk about LED's nor PPFD or par meters, we had t5's, 8's and HID's..
> 
> I did not start learning about PPFD and proper amounts for each stage until this year, 17 years after doing this, so it will be interesting to see going forward how my grows change by using par meters and new lights..
> 
> I know by heart what the old style of growing produces, Im very excited to see what all these new develops do to my garden, I feel like Im back in my early 20's and learning everything all over again.


High expectations lead to high disappointments.
My bet is that you will see lower quality results.
But if you wanna jump into the "high words no cigar" game, please do feel free.
Just check out some LED grows before.


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## snakedope (Nov 7, 2022)

Oh and if you want some more info, jump to the BUD Quality under LED thread in icmag, here are mostly kids that spent thousands on LED and use words like dinosaur, modern vs old, no real science, just marketing science.


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## hillbill (Nov 7, 2022)

HPS will put out about 40% less light per watt as Boards or Bars. Justo way it is.
More buds, more weight and excellent potency.
Win Win Win


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## hillbill (Nov 7, 2022)

Most of the experienced LED growers had years with HPS.


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## snakedope (Nov 7, 2022)

Horselover fat said:


> I think it makes more sense to talk about photons instead of lumen. But, yes, ten times the light is ten times the light. The light is then spread to an area. Changing the area the light lands on changes the intensity (lux/ppfd). If you take the multiple sources further from each other you increase the area the light lands on, which decreases intensity. Same thing happens if you light up a larger area using a single source.


Just have to respond to this,
Changing the area won't change the intensity the source makes.

"If you take the multiple sources further from each other you increase the area the light lands on, which decreases intensity" Thank you !
Finally you got it.
You cannot spread light, and still keep the same intensity. That's what me and Blue Brother was saying all along, you cannot add the intensity by dividing the source, only spread lower intensity to other places.
Just a reminder to those who are skipping the entire thread: YOU CANT ADD LUMENS (Source based measurement) you can add Ppfd.


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## decrepit digits (Nov 7, 2022)

Scuzzman said:


> good to see the RUI trolls and socks are still around pushing there own narrative.... facts are facts , tech moves on - shame people dont


Tec moves on but not all ways to the betterment of the industry involved. I dont care what light you use just dont be saying one is better than the rest for all uses. All of you would laff at what I use but no one ever laffs at the end result when flame hits it.


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 7, 2022)

It's getting cold out here, so temps are starting to drop a bit in my grow tent. Rather that adding a bunch of extra wattage with a space heater, I'm gonna take down the bar LEDs and put up my CMH plus QB setup. It will be 20% more wattage, so a few more BTU's, but also more radiant heat hitting the leaves is an added bonus during winter. If it got real cold around here, I'd likely revert to straight HPS during winter. There really is no best lighting source, because it depends on several different variables.


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## lusidghost (Nov 7, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> It's getting cold out here, so temps are starting to drop a bit in my grow tent. Rather that adding a bunch of extra wattage with a space heater, I'm gonna take down the bar LEDs and put up my CMH plus QB setup. It will be 20% more wattage, so a few more BTU's, but also more radiant heat hitting the leaves is an added bonus during winter. If it got real cold around here, I'd likely revert to straight HPS during winter. There really is no best lighting source, because it depends on several different variables.


I think Cloudline automated inline fans are key in the winter. Lights out / nighttime is when I've always had issues with cold temps though. A little heater with a thermostat plus the Cloudlines has been keeping it cozy until the lights come back on. There is barely any swing between lights on and off.


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## Star Dog (Nov 7, 2022)

I certainly didn't see any savings in fact it costs me more per crop to run led than it does with hid.

Hid radiates enough heat to be helpful with controlling humidity, without that radiated heat i need to run a dehumidifier.

I've still got my se/de hid but I'd rather pay the extra and reap the benefits of led at the end, i was reluctant to change tf i did.


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 7, 2022)

lusidghost said:


> I think Cloudline automated inline fans are key in the winter. Lights out / nighttime is when I've always had issues with cold temps though. A little heater with a thermostat plus the Cloudlines has been keeping it cozy until the lights come back on. There is barely any swing between lights on and off.


I don't really have problems with lights out. I run my lights at night, and lights out is during the day. Power is a lot cheaper at night on my plan.


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## Greengrouch (Nov 7, 2022)

I’ve grown good weed under both. I like a 480w led in a 4x4 better than a 600w hps. I don’t need color corrective sunglasses to look at my plants now. 120w power difference is hardly noticeable on my power bill though. No real yield increase I hit about a lb either way.


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## Joe.Grow (Nov 7, 2022)

hps all the way. nothing compares and it also is very simple to keep it warm in the tent


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## snakedope (Nov 8, 2022)

decrepit digits said:


> Tec moves on but not all ways to the betterment of the industry involved. I dont care what light you use just dont be saying one is better than the rest for all uses. All of you would laff at what I use but no one ever laffs at the end result when flame hits it.


People will always think like that, Most modern ? Better, more expansive ? Better, bigger ? Better.
Logic is out the window when it comes to high end big money tech and schemes.
LEDs are agenda driven lights, there's more to the story then better or worse weed grow lights.

I'm done dismissing this tech or the other, as I see it, good genetics will prevail in almost all situations, sure some will do better or worse, like PJ said, the heat is good in winter, and the cold is good in summer, it goes on for many things like that.


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## Joe.Grow (Nov 8, 2022)

hps all the way, never had a huge yield from led, its a guarantee with hps.


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## Mason Jar 92705 (Nov 8, 2022)

Joe.Grow said:


> hps all the way, never had a huge yield from led, its a guarantee with hps.


I run 1000 watt hps, eye hort and I’ll take the Pepsi challenge any day against led’s. I see led grows all day and I’m not blown away by any of it.


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## bk78 (Nov 8, 2022)

Mason Jar 92705 said:


> I run 1000 watt hps, eye hort and I’ll take the Pepsi challenge any day against led’s. I see led grows all day and I’m not blown away by any of it.


I just checked out your journals 


cute


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## Mason Jar 92705 (Nov 8, 2022)

bk78 said:


> I just checked out your journals
> 
> 
> cute


Good.


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## lusidghost (Nov 8, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> I don't really have problems with lights out. I run my lights at night, and lights out is during the day. Power is a lot cheaper at night on my plan.


I used to run mine at night too, but that was because it was trying to get the day temp down to HPS levels. I switched them to turn on at 12pm once I realized I could jack the heat up, mainly because having the entire day to work made harvesting a lot less stressful.


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## lusidghost (Nov 8, 2022)

Mason Jar 92705 said:


> Good.


They look the same as everyone else's grow.


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 8, 2022)

lusidghost said:


> I used to run mine at night too, but that was because it was trying to get the day temp down to HPS levels. I switched them to turn on at 12pm once I realized I could jack the heat up, mainly because having the entire day to work made harvesting a lot less stressful.


I bet your highest power rate is less than my lowest rate. Power is super expensive out here. This is a special rate since I have an electric vehicle, and peak hours are higher than typical, but off-peak is the inverse:







This is the more typical non-EV rate plan:


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## lusidghost (Nov 8, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> I bet your highest power rate is less than my lowest rate. Power is super expensive out here. This is a special rate since I have an electric vehicle, and peak hours are higher than typical, but off-peak is the inverse:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I couldn't find any sort of info on my energy company's page. I don't think we have peak hours here.


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 8, 2022)

lusidghost said:


> I couldn't find any sort of info on my energy company's page. I don't think we have peak hours here.


They also offer tiered rate plans out here, but I think it ends up being more expensive at the end of the month.


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