# AMAZING growth pattern. mutant or pheno?



## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 7, 2008)

- Ok I am currently growing several different varieties. One of them is "Blackberry" from Vancouver Island Seed Bank (VISC). Out of all the different plants of all varieties, including it's own, this one individual plant just ROCKETED out of the ground, and untill about 2 and a half weeks ago was twice the size or more than ANY other plant in my indoor setup. 

- Well, it started slowing down it's initial growth and many of the G13 Haze's have caught up in size. I think the reason for this was that, about 2 and a half weeks ago, it started showing an odd growth pattern. At each node, it started shooting out 3 branches instead of 2. there have been several new sets of nodes since then, and all of them but one have 3 branches at the node. even the one 2 branched site has 3 sets of leaves growing around the stalk at the node, so it still gives 3 bud sites even at the two branched node. Does anyone have experience with this happening before, with this strain or any other?

- As if this wasn't weird enough already, this same plant exhibits another strange characteristic. One of the branches coming off the first tri-node didn't become a fan leaf, instead becoming basically another top. It's node formation is even stranger than the main stalk though. kinda like one longer node that shoots out 3 branches about 1cm apart. So basically I have a plant growing 2 tops and 3 branches at basically every node instead of the usual two. CannaSeur coined the name "Tripod" for this lil' thing (not sexed yet, still vegging), and I give credit where credit is due.
This plant was not topped or anything, same conditions as every other plant, which are, for the most part, doing pretty good. There is a little nute burn on the tips of the lowest leaves, although I have fertilized literally only one time and it was way after this stuff started happening. Also, I over-watered a little bit when they were younger, this may be evident in some photos where you can see a little fan leaf distorsion. This problem was corrected upom transplanting into the larger (3 gal.) pots they are in now. Neither of these serve as plausible explanations for me, I think it is genetic. 

- This plant is one of the best plants in my garden. It has actually grown alot since I took those pics just a couple days ago, i will update in my next post with newer pics. the g13 Hazes didn't seem too effected by the over-watering, but still only a couple of them are taller, though definitely not as bushy. 

- I am trying to post some pictures with this message so people who know a thing or two can take a look-see and tell me what they think. I will obviously be cloning this baby, and pretty soon, too! Anyway I'm really hoping I post these pictures correctly, this will be a hard story to believe without pictures to back up the claims. 

- Ok I'm having a hard time postimg pictures, so I'll work on that. It's saying a 'security token' is missing, and that I need to contact an admin? I was hoping it was gonna be easy, I'll get pics up here as soon as I can. any help with this would be appreciated also, I'm too stoned to deal with this right now...

- I think I may have some pictures of it in my 'album', not im my gallery tho. I'm really new here and I dont know how to do much, sorry.


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## durbanpoison91 (Jun 7, 2008)

this sounds extremly wierd.
are the shape of the leaves distorted (from more than just over watering) like do they looke wierd and mis-shapen?


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## TMB77 (Jun 7, 2008)

I dont think it would be that odd for this to happen. Mutations are rampant in nature, its how the whole dance moves forward after all....I'd obviously try and get some seeds from this thing.


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 7, 2008)

durbanpoison91 said:


> this sounds extremly wierd.
> are the shape of the leaves distorted (from more than just over watering) like do they looke wierd and mis-shapen?


- The leaves are pretty normal in shape. there were a couple sets of nodes effected, and they are still pretty close to what a leaf should look like, just with funny edges. And actually, there were alot of plants that got hit way worse by the over-watering than this one. It came through better than any other plant of it's variety. So basically out of my 7 or 8 Blackberries, it would be the best one even if it didn't show these odd characteristics that could give it, potentially, 33% or more increase in the number of budding spots. Looks bushy as fuck too, gonna take new pictures today. 

- I have pictures of this plant in the 'album' section of my profile, I hope you guys can view them there, because I'm having trouble posting pictures. I'll try again here and we'll see what happens, but If it still isn't able to, check my photo album... Not my 'gallery,' for some reason I cant figure out how to get any pictures there either. this is confusing to me, and I can't find any FAQs or guides relating to the IT aspect of this site, so if anyone can help me figure out how to do it, it would be greatly appreciated, and help people get a better idea of what I'm talking about here. heck, If ya help me I might throw some rep your way. I've contacted admin, but haven't heard back yet, so offer available for a limited time only 

- yeah TMB I've seen you leave good advice on other threads. I know that mutants can happen and understand darwinism, but I'm wondering if this has happened to anyone else with the same strain (blackberry), possibly meaning this is a rare phenotype instead of just a random mutation), or with any other strain (perhaps meaning it is a mutatation that can happen sometimes to any cannabis plant) smf don't worry about the breeding, this plant is gonna get alot of action no matter which sex it turns out to be. 

-On another note, I have spotted another mutant! This time a G13 Haze, also with a seemingly desireable characteristic. It has split at one of it's most recent nodes and is proceeding foreward as if I had topped it to create 2 colas. Same situation as before with the other mutant, they are being grown together in the same area. I don't live near radiation, plants actually do really good here and I'm not too far from a deciduous rainforest (non-tropical rainforest, they are even rarer than their tropical counterpart) All the new growth from all my plants looks to be coming in healthy since i fixed the over-watering, but it makes me wonder If some of my plants got zapped with gamma rays like the incredible hulk or something.


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 7, 2008)

trying to post pictures


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 7, 2008)

Ok folks, for some reason it finally worked. Anyway from left to right:
1) You can see one tri-node very clearly right below the one I'm holding out of the way. Branches from a tri-node below it are visible, fading into the shadows. The node being held up for the photo, I believe, only has 2 branches but still has 3 spots where new leaf growth is coming out. 2 more modes have come in since this pic was taken, both tri-nodes.
2) Pretty similar to picture #1, but a slightly different angle. You can see a couple sets of tri-nodes and thier new leaf growth.
3) Backed off a bit. You can still see trinodes, but also a little of the shape of the individual leaves and the plant.
4) This shot was with the MH off, tried to show both tops. One is (obvioisly) right on top, while the second is coming out of the middle of the plant right towards the camera.
5) MH off, shot the interiorby holding some fan leaves and other bushy growth out of the way. One top is visible right near the top edge of the photo, the other is lower and to the left of center. You can see some of the branch development on the one that has started growing like a top, but it's still young and small and harder to discern in picture form than in real life.

- Anyway let me know what you think. Did I post them correctly, and can you guys see them? I haven't been successful thus far, but I think I got it this time. If you can see them, let me know what you think. Knowledge from experienced growers is very welcome, but even that from amatures will be respected. I'm gonna try to hybridize this with a couple other varieties I have. If its something I could stabilize..... wow!


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## nepali grizzly (Jun 7, 2008)

nice plant, looks nice and healthy. I'm not an experienced grower but i have seen this before a couple times and it would be interesting to see if those genetics carry on to the next generation. Now if you could find some male pollen from a triple noded plant and pollinate it, it will have a better % of offspring being triple noded as well. I have a plant right now with quadruple nodes but its not very healthy. I will be toping mine to get 4 main branches and hopefully its female.


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## WormSlayer (Jun 7, 2008)

I love tri-node plants! The only ones I've ever had all grew out of it thought 

Anyone ever seen a tri-noded strain that grows true?


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 7, 2008)

nepali grizzly said:


> nice plant, looks nice and healthy. I'm not an experienced grower but i have seen this before a couple times and it would be interesting to see if those genetics carry on to the next generation. Now if you could find some male pollen from a triple noded plant and pollinate it, it will have a better % of offspring being triple noded as well. I have a plant right now with quadruple nodes but its not very healthy. I will be toping mine to get 4 main branches and hopefully its female.


I'm not Incredibly experienced either. It's my first time doing it indoors. I've done it for a few years now outside and I haven't seen anything but 2 branches at each node. Sometimes I will top, but I always test a variety first by just topping a couple plants if I've never grown it before. Some varieties do not respond well to it, however with some strains, if you top 'em a couple times, you can get 4 main colas each as big as the one would have been if you hadn't topped. 

I am primarily interested in seeing if I can get this trait to carry on to another generation. Griz, If i had another tripod plant I would actually be praying for it to go male, lol. Unfortunately this is the only one showing these characteristics. I do have a G13 Haze that randomly decided to turn it's main stalk into two, as If I had topped it. Only thing is, I did no such thing. It just randomly split and now I have 2 sets of nodes on it. If this mutant turns out to be a different sex than my tripod mutant, maybe I should breed the two mutants together. who knows what I'll get for growth pattern. It should turn out well for potency, they are both quality strains. Barneys G13 Haze won the HTCC last year, and came in second before that. Blackberry is a high yeilding, large budded indica with ALOT of purple coloration and good resin production. Beautiful plant. I think it would be a good match. Both of them have large main colas, and with hybrid vigor, who knows what the F1 seeds would give me? could be a super chronic, high yeilding, indoor/outdoor strain with beautiful light purple and lime green... hmmmmmm! getting a little ahead of myself there, lol. I'll Keep you guys updated every so often, or if something new happens or changes or whatever.

including more pics
1) Close in shot of the G13 Haze that gave itself 2 tops without being topped or damaged
2) Slightly different angle, better view of stalk below split.
3) Tripod Blackberry is second row up, 3rd plant from the left. Bi-topped G13 Haze is bottom row, 3rd from the left.


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## THEGROWER42384 (Jun 9, 2008)

very nice dont rember ever coming across one with 3 shoots at a node site odd i want a clone of that lol it looks very helthy i wana know if it keeps doing it or if it comes out of it


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 9, 2008)

THEGROWER42384 said:


> very nice dont rember ever coming across one with 3 shoots at a node site odd i want a clone of that lol it looks very helthy i wana know if it keeps doing it or if it comes out of it


- Oh yeah, believe me I am keeping close tabs on this one. I checked today and it turns out that there is only one node that DOESN'T have 3 branches. But even it has 3 spots where fresh growth is emerging, so It will still have 3 bud-bearing branches even on the node with just 2 fan leaves. I thought the first couple nodes were regular but when I checked again today they were also tri-nodes. Even the tinly little emerging nodes are coming in 3s. This plant is gnarly, Its not my tallest plant or my widest plant, but I'ts pretty big and it's the bushiest thing I've ever seen! 

- I'm about to harden a few plants up so I can move them outside to veg for longer while I start flowering my other plants indoors in a week or two. I'm thinking of taking this one outside and not flowering it yet so that I can take a bunch of clones right as my indoor shit is finishing up and grow some high yeilding clones. The clones won't do me much good if it turns male, but IF that happens i can still pollinate lower branches of some of my better female specimines. Man I hope this trait can be passed down. If I can get even a few of the offspring to grow in this pattern, I can start an IBL targeting that specific growth pattern. In other words, If it's able to be passed down, I might be able to stabilize it. I', actually gonna take a few clones from about 5 or 6 plants this week so I will probably take some from this one since it's pretty big.

- This is my first indoor grow, Is about a foot tall a decent height for plants appx. 1 month and 1 week old? They have between 7-9 internodes with pretty close spacing. Some less than an inch, some are a little more than an inch.

- I'll post some new photos tomorrow if I can. All the plants are growing like crazy so even though its only been 2 or 3 days since the last pics, they've gotten even bigger. This is actually pretty exciting. This plant could basically be a commercial cropper's dream come true, huh?


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 9, 2008)

New Photos! I went out and took a couple shots of the Tripod Blackberry today (6/09), and Thought I'd give an update. Good new growth on top as well as good inner growth. Tri-branched nodes are pretty much universal from the bottom to the top at this point. Even the one node that grew only 2 Fan leaves still has 3 branch sites and there is healthy new growth coming in at 3 places even there. I'm gonna harden this plant off (along with a couple others) over the course of a week or two and eventually move it outside so I can veg it longer. I plan on flowering in my garden in a couple weeks or so, but I want to get plenty of clones of this thing and a couple other plants so they're going outside in the near future. Blackberry is actually an outdoor variety bred in the same area I live in, so It should do great here during the summer. When my other plants are almost done flowering, I can start taking clones off the ones I've moved outdoors and get them ready. Then Once I harvest, Ill be able to start vegging clones from all my best plants, and get my second run just from the clones of like my 3 best females or something. Anyway, heres a couple new pics. Mostly just overall shots or shots showing interior growth pattern from a distance of a foot or so. I dont Think I took any new shots of the tri-nodes, I want a little more growth before I take more pics of it, it pretty much looks the same as before, just a little bigger.
1)Tripod, with one of my pipes, 'The Witch Doctor'! It has a fresh bowl of some fire but you cant see it
2)Tripod stone chillin' in the garden. You can see a little bit of leaf deformity. these plants have never been hot enough or close enough to a light to burn them (as seedlingd in the upper seventies, now usually upper sixties and seventy at the hottest), and I've only used nutes once at less than 1/4 strength and it was after it happened anyway. Anyone know what that was? It has pretty much stopped, but I'm curious.
3)Tripod side view
4)Tripod, almost underneath
5)Here's my set-up, I think the MH and the front floro are turned off for the pic, as are the fans, but just to take the picture. It's a 600w digital HPS or MH. Since it's digital it can use both, even without a conversion bulb.

- Let me know what you guys think of the Tripod and of my set up. Thanks to all who have posted so far, I will continue updating.


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## CannaSeur (Jun 12, 2008)

marijuanajoe1982 said:


> New Photos! I went out and took a couple shots of the Tripod Blackberry today (6/09), and Thought I'd give an update. Good new growth on top as well as good inner growth. Tri-branched nodes are pretty much universal from the bottom to the top at this point. Even the one node that grew only 2 Fan leaves still has 3 branch sites and there is healthy new growth coming in at 3 places even there. I'm gonna harden this plant off (along with a couple others) over the course of a week or two and eventually move it outside so I can veg it longer. I plan on flowering in my garden in a couple weeks or so, but I want to get plenty of clones of this thing and a couple other plants so they're going outside in the near future. Blackberry is actually an outdoor variety bred in the same area I live in, so It should do great here during the summer. When my other plants are almost done flowering, I can start taking clones off the ones I've moved outdoors and get them ready. Then Once I harvest, Ill be able to start vegging clones from all my best plants, and get my second run just from the clones of like my 3 best females or something. Anyway, heres a couple new pics. Mostly just overall shots or shots showing interior growth pattern from a distance of a foot or so. I dont Think I took any new shots of the tri-nodes, I want a little more growth before I take more pics of it, it pretty much looks the same as before, just a little bigger.
> 1)Tripod, with one of my pipes, 'The Witch Doctor'! It has a fresh bowl of some fire but you cant see it
> 2)Tripod stone chillin' in the garden. You can see a little bit of leaf deformity. these plants have never been hot enough or close enough to a light to burn them (as seedlingd in the upper seventies, now usually upper sixties and seventy at the hottest), and I've only used nutes once at less than 1/4 strength and it was after it happened anyway. Anyone know what that was? It has pretty much stopped, but I'm curious.
> 3)Tripod side view
> ...


Holy shit joe, tripod looks real good can't wait to see that thing flower if its female. you are so going to hook me up with seeds. Keep me updated and send pics on my email if you still have trouble posting. also try copy and paste, it worked for me posting my strains pic.

Talk to you soon.


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 12, 2008)

CannaSeur said:


> Holy shit joe, tripod looks real good can't wait to see that thing flower if its female. you are so going to hook me up with seeds. Keep me updated and send pics on my email if you still have trouble posting. also try copy and paste, it worked for me posting my strains pic.
> 
> Talk to you soon.


Glad you finally got a look at it, buddy! I imagine you have some idea how much I am hoping it turns female. God I honestly would feel like I won the lotto for a million bucks. What are the odds of a mutation like this? And if it turns female... I might just keel over and die of happiness

I'll try and snap a couple more new photos and at least get them on this thread, even if I don't get them in my gallery. And don't worry dude, you will get seeds. I have a cousin who lives somewhere near you, although since I don't really even know which state you live in it could be a good distance away. Maybe not though, we will be in touch don't worry.


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 12, 2008)

Heres new pictures of the tri-pod. Still 3 branches at every node. This plant is 9-10 inches tall with 10+ tri-branched nodes. I have been keeping track and nothing new except more tri-nodes! Go Tripod Go!

1) Starting to be pretty evident even from the top, 3 leaves growing out instead of 2!
2) New growth out the top, all Tri-pods! lol.
3) Another interior shot, right at the tip.

It's only getting bigger and bushier!


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## fdd2blk (Jun 12, 2008)

this right here is waaaaay cool ..........


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 12, 2008)

I thought so too, Fdd. I'm really stoked on both of them, the Tripod Blackberry and the G13 Haze that topped itself. Those purple stripes, they are veins. Delivering nutrients, right? I'm not growing that many plants, I wonder why I have more than one of these seemingly desireable mutations? I will definitely be using these special plants for breeding, no matter which way they go. I have so many unique plants this time around, theres bound to be some good genetic mixing going on!


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## fdd2blk (Jun 12, 2008)

marijuanajoe1982 said:


> I thought so too, Fdd. I'm really stoked on both of them, the Tripod Blackberry and the G13 Haze that topped itself. Those purple stripes, they are veins. Delivering nutrients, right? I'm not growing that many plants, I wonder why I have more than one of these seemingly desireable mutations? I will definitely be using these special plants for breeding, no matter which way they go. I have so many unique plants this time around, theres bound to be some good genetic mixing going on!



the purple is normal. 
the stalk is soooooo thick.


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## CannaSeur (Jun 13, 2008)

marijuanajoe1982 said:


> Glad you finally got a look at it, buddy! I imagine you have some idea how much I am hoping it turns female. God I honestly would feel like I won the lotto for a million bucks. What are the odds of a mutation like this? And if it turns female... I might just keel over and die of happiness
> 
> I'll try and snap a couple more new photos and at least get them on this thread, even if I don't get them in my gallery. And don't worry dude, you will get seeds. I have a cousin who lives somewhere near you, although since I don't really even know which state you live in it could be a good distance away. Maybe not though, we will be in touch don't worry.


 Don't die of happiness! then I won't get any seeds! and the plant will die cuz no one is taking care of it. And if anyone you trust knows about this make sure you give it to me in your will so that person can send it out safely to me. Must be same day shipping!!! DON"T FUCKING DIE JOE! Don't you fucking dare!!!!

Have you talked to the seed company that you got the seeds from about this? When it does start to show sex and it is female, may I suggest you keep that plant as mother and just do experiments with the clones?

P.S. did you get my last email on the pollenating? And with all these wicked mutations, you living near a nuclear powerplant?LOL. just jokes. that stalk is killer thick, I loe the purple veins too. It looks like one of those old spooky looking forest trees you see in cartoons with these long scary faces.


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## WalkedOnTheMoon (Jun 13, 2008)

yeh this is called whorled phyllotaxy. From what i have heard they usually end up male, has anyone seen a female with this characteristc?


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## Erysichthon (Jun 13, 2008)

wow, that plant is super cool crazy. as someone said you should clone it and see if the clones hold the tripod characteristics. this is the first time ive seen this and i cant wait to see how it goes. good luck with it.

Ery


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## colem8 (Jun 13, 2008)

Seems complicated, should i learn how to do?? and is it hard?? Do you end up with more growth? cheers!


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## WormSlayer (Jun 13, 2008)

WalkedOnTheMoon said:


> yeh this is called whorled phyllotaxy. From what i have heard they usually end up male, has anyone seen a female with this characteristc?


The last one I had started from seed with tri-nodes, but grew out of it. It was a female though.


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 13, 2008)

WalkedOnTheMoon said:


> yeh this is called whorled phyllotaxy. From what i have heard they usually end up male, has anyone seen a female with this characteristc?


 
Ok! that is some good information right there! +rep for actually giving me the name of something to look up. This particular plant is, as of right now, unsexed. Everyone will know which way it goes when it happens, I'll let ya know. Even if it does go male, I would still want to get his pollen to see if seeds created using it could pass on this characteristic, and if ANY that did could go female. No matter what happens I feel blessed with these couple plants. Mutations or whatever, they are still cool, and considering I don't have hundreds of plants, it sure does seem like I have more genetic diversity in these 3 strains than I have ever in my few years of experience
I live in the same state as Hanford, but I haven't had mutations before. Who knows?! lol

I should say, on the issue of tripod cloning, that I have been observing all branches on the plant, and not just the top. The only place it shows this growth pattern is right out the top. The other branches, even the one that is kinda like another top, show a regular growth pattern. Doesn't this mean that If I clone them, they will most likely not exhibit the tri-nodal structure? Not to say she wouldn't make a good clone mother, she has 33% more branches to take clones from! I just think they would be regular blackberry. Is it possible that they would switch? Or is the only way I'm gonna be able to find out be by trying it for myself?

I also have a unique pheno of the Barneys G13 Haze that is alot more Indica than any of the others. My Avatar is a picture of it, but from a little while ago, it's gettin' to be a foot tall, and is taller than any other plants, except a couple of the more Sativa G13 Hazes. My thinking is, this is probably gonna be the closest thing I'll ever have to whatever the fuck G13 is... So I also have 'high'  hopes for these plants. With as many unique plants as I have, odds are at lest one or two will be female *Crosses Fingers*. I hope.

Also, just to clarify... This isn't a special method or anything, I just happened to have a seed that became a plant with a very unusual branching pattern. Dumb luck, maybe.


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## colem8 (Jun 13, 2008)

Sounds pretty bloody wicked to me. So this could happen with any seed/strain for any seed bank...? so it just luck?


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 13, 2008)

colem8 said:


> Sounds pretty bloody wicked to me. So this could happen with any seed/strain for any seed bank...? so it just luck?


I do not know how common it is. from what I'm hearing, it's pretty rare, and often just goes away after a couple nodes. This is probably an anomoly but the genetics I'm using are Vancouver Island Seed Company's (VISC) Blackberry. 

I have tried to contact them, but so far no reply. I will give it another try, I want to know if they have seen it before in this variety, meaning perhaps that it just a rare phenotype in this case, or if it is indeed the condition named by my friend at the bottom of page 2.

Either way you are probably not likely to encounter it. Ive grown many plants outdoors and have never seen it before, but that doesn't mean you won't. Anything is possible. I got 2 random mutations, and several very unique and rare (from what I hear) phenotypes in just my small batch of plants, so you could have a crazy grow like the one I am having right now, lol. It sure is making it fun 

Good luck finding one. who knows, maybe It will pass on and I will have seeds. If it turns out to be something that can be stabilized (unlikely) I will start my own seed bank based on the Tripod! lol


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## colem8 (Jun 14, 2008)

Yeah, well its looking pretty good to me. Keep up the good work. Cheers.


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 14, 2008)

Thanks. From what I can gather, phyllotaxy is a botanical term describing the way plants grow. It describes, particularly, the way that new leaves come out in relation to one another. 

There are several different kinds of phyllotaxy. Normal Cannabis Sativa has an "opposite phyllotaxy" which means that 2 leaves sprout, opposite of eachother, at each node. My strange blackberry plant is exhibiting a "whorled phyllotaxy," Meaning that 3 new branches sprout at each new node. God, I'm hoping it turns female! We'll see, I dont want to count 'em before they hatch. So basically I don't know any more about why this happened, but at least now I can say my plant is exhibiting "whorled phyllotaxy, as opposed to the normal "opposite phyllotaxy" that should be happening. 

My camera needs new batteries, so I don't have any new pictures. I just fertilized, using a special Veg blend of Techniflora nutes, with my last watering. This will be the 2nd and last time I have used Veg nutes on them, they will veg for another week or two, and then I'm switching to flowering. The next time I fertilize, it will be with a techniflora flower blend! I'm getting excited because I'm gonna see who my mommas and poppas are within the month!


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## colem8 (Jun 15, 2008)

lol, dont get too excited bro, positive vibes apparently help your grow tho, haha.
Good luck to ya and fingers crossed they're females


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## speedhabit (Jun 15, 2008)

I think its got an extra chromy in there... 

*My plant has three internodes and shoots instead of two.*
Trifoliates or triploids are common to cannabis as a plant species. They possess three sets of chromosomes instead of the usual two. Approx. 2% of the population in Mandala strains exhibit this trait. So for every 100 seeds there are max. 2 plants. About 60% of trifoliates turn out to be males. From the females you have 20% with a higher yield than normal (due to the extra node and vigour), 20% are just under average, and the rest are normal performers.

(mandalaseeds.com go to the faq)


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 15, 2008)

speedhabit said:


> I think its got an extra chromy in there...
> 
> *My plant has three internodes and shoots instead of two.*
> Trifoliates or triploids are common to cannabis as a plant species. They possess three sets of chromosomes instead of the usual two. Approx. 2% of the population in Mandala strains exhibit this trait. So for every 100 seeds there are max. 2 plants. About 60% of trifoliates turn out to be males. From the females you have 20% with a higher yield than normal (due to the extra node and vigour), 20% are just under average, and the rest are normal performers.
> ...


Ok, so there's not like a 99% chance it will go male or anything. Thats good to know. I got a 40% of it being a girl! Thats only 10% below average, not too bad. I think if this goes female it will be a high yeilder, it is one of my tallest plants, and definitely my bushiest. It's the biggest of it's strain. I'll go take some new pictures tonight when it cools off a little. It's like 80 degrees out there! well, it was earlier anyway, probably a little cooler by now. This seed did not come from Mandala, but I guess even seeds from other companies can end up with an extra set of chromosomes! I wonder if these plants are able to pass these traits on to the next generation or not? I will check out that FAQ. Thanks for the info, +rep for that, homie!


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## daydrops (Jun 16, 2008)

some kind of mutant freak of nature. and now your haze is freakin' out, too? do you live in the three mile island area?

i say: thank mother earth for this little extra boost. you could have a giant producer there if it doesn't grow out of it.

clone that thing if it's a girl, or cross it with your haze if its a boy, or another mutant tri-podder.

good luck, bro.


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## WalkedOnTheMoon (Jun 16, 2008)

As far as i've learned, triploid is NOT the same thing as whorled phyllotaxy


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## WalkedOnTheMoon (Jun 16, 2008)

taken from another forum
"Polyploids and plants with whorled phylotaxy are not the same thing. Or even related.
- Phyllotaxy refers to the orderly arrangement of leaves on the stem. The "decision"
regarding how leaves are arranged is made at the Shoot Apical Meristem as each new leaf is
initiated. Various phyllotaxy patterns tend to maximize the distance between
nearby leaf primordia, which prevents mature leaves from shading each other
- alternate phyllotaxy: one leaf per node
- leaves may be spirally arranged; the angle between successive leaves is
approximately 137.5° (related to the Golden ratio, the Fibonacci series)
- distichous phyllotaxy: 180° between leaves; this occurs in pea and most
grasses
- opposite phyllotaxy: 2 leaves per node, which are opposite to each other; this
pair of leaves is offset by 90° relative to leaves at adjacent nodes
- whorled phyllotaxy: 3 or more leaves per node

Anyway, not much is known about the regulation and control behind leaf
primordia formation. But genetic studies have indicated that a single gene or two
can make a lot of difference.

From Marijuana Botonay: Whorled phyllotaxy is associated with subsequent anomalies in the growth cycle (i.e., multiple leaflets and flattened or clubbed stems). Also, most whorled plants are staminate and whorled phyllotaxy may be sex-linked."

so theres your answer


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## speedhabit (Jun 16, 2008)

Yeah, triploids arent all that rare, not some new discovery or anything, and although it may have more branches, its still the same uptake system undersoil so your dealing with the same yeilding potential as any other plant, just love em till you kill them then smoke them.


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 16, 2008)

From what I understand so far based off what I've heard here and researched myself, a "whorled phyllotaxy" is just a way to describe the growth pattern of any plant that shoots out three leaves per node. Marijuana usually has an "opposite phyllotaxy," but for some reason my Blackberry plant is growing with a "whorled phyllotaxy." However, I must say that what I real about triploids also describes this plant very well. 

Now, I don't know everything there is to know about this, but maybe a "triploid" and a "polyploid" are two different things. From what I have read about polyploids, particularly the famed "Canadian Polyploids" from some research project, they sound very different from my Blackberry. Also, these polyploids were germinated in some chemical as seeds in order to produce their mutations, which seemed to relate more to thier flowering period and thier vigorous growth than having an extra branch. You seem really knowledgeable, definitely more knowledgeable that I, so I could be wrong.

Also, I can already tell this plant is gonna yeild alot if it goes female. It is the biggest of it's strain, and has been since day I. This plant practically jumped out of the ground as seedlings, and was my biggest plant out of all of them until some of the G13 Hazes caught up. When all my plants were one week old, this plant looked like it was two. It's leaves just started out bigger when they folded out. If this goes male, it's pollinating every mom I have, and if it goes female, I'm breeding her with every stud male I have. Aside from the tri-nodes and the branch that wants to be a second top, this was the most vigorous seedling with the gnarliest fastest growing root structure of ANY of my plants, regardless of strain. If there's a chance any of this can be passed on to my F1 generation, I'm gonna make it happen. If not, well it was still the best plant in it's strain, so it should breed well anyway. Im just happy to have it.

Also, I was thinking about breeding it and the Haze that decided it would top itself if they end up being of the opposite sex. God, that Haze is crazy too, I should take some more pics. When I checked yesterday it looked like there was a "new" top sprouting out from right in the middle of the split where the plant topped itself. So if that thing keeps growing, i could have a plant that grows three tops without any interference. I have often wondered if being in the same state as Hanford, one of our governments oldest and dirtiest nuclear facilities, has anything to do with this. But I have grown outdoors for a while now, And I've never seen this kind of genetic variation. It also seems like I have a couple unique phenotypes that others growing the same variety said they have never seen. I don't know whats up, but I'm glad to have all these different choices for mothers and fathers!


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## WalkedOnTheMoon (Jun 17, 2008)

well, a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isnt a square.... not all polyploid plants have whorled phyllotaxy, it is possible that your plant does in fact have more than 2 chromosome pairs, but it is just as reasonable to believe it as a genetic defect while the plant is still diploid. A Triploid plant wouldnt consist of just one extra chromosome but an extra chromosome for each chromosome the plant possesses. Most polyploid plants just retard out


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## mrbluntbuddy420 (Jun 17, 2008)

marijuanajoe1982 said:


> - Ok I am currently growing several different varieties. One of them is "Blackberry" from Vancouver Island Seed Bank (VISC). Out of all the different plants of all varieties, including it's own, this one individual plant just ROCKETED out of the ground, and untill about 2 and a half weeks ago was twice the size or more than ANY other plant in my indoor setup.
> 
> - Well, it started slowing down it's initial growth and many of the G13 Haze's have caught up in size. I think the reason for this was that, about 2 and a half weeks ago, it started showing an odd growth pattern. At each node, it started shooting out 3 branches instead of 2. there have been several new sets of nodes since then, and all of them but one have 3 branches at the node. even the one 2 branched site has 3 sets of leaves growing around the stalk at the node, so it still gives 3 bud sites even at the two branched node. Does anyone have experience with this happening before, with this strain or any other?
> 
> ...


 
I have a 3 purple star plants ( Purple Urkle x Sensi Star) plants, all about 3 weeks of flowering. anyway, one of them has three branches at each node from the second node up. Mine was from a really messed up pH. If you have nute burn, you might wanna check that. Btw the other two had perfect pH and grew normally. Also the one that has three branches also isnt turning purple like the other two :[


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## natmoon (Jun 17, 2008)

I have only had one triploid female so far ever so i wouldn't get your hopes up yet but keep your fingers crossed you may get lucky.
I pollinated mine and have seeds


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 17, 2008)

WalkedOnTheMoon said:


> well, a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isnt a square.... not all polyploid plants have whorled phyllotaxy, it is possible that your plant does in fact have more than 2 chromosome pairs, but it is just as reasonable to believe it as a genetic defect while the plant is still diploid. A Triploid plant wouldnt consist of just one extra chromosome but an extra chromosome for each chromosome the plant possesses. Most polyploid plants just retard out


Yeah, thats what I had read about the Canadian Polyploids. The leaves would be like one giant serrated oval on one branch, and then another with like 12 leaves. Sounds strange, I read a thread on this forum where a guy bred his regular stuff with these polyploids he got from a trucker. He said the polyploids went all retarded, like you said. Once he had bred them to about 1/4 polyploid genetics, 3/4 regular plant genetics, they resulted in really strong versions of what he started out with, or so he claims. No pictures, of course, lol. 

Also, I was sorta thinking that it might be possible for something like this to happen with as little as one or two genes out of place. I don't necessarily see it as "obviously" having an extra set of chromies, but I don't really have a way to test it either,lol. So wether it is triploid, or just a diploid with a whorled phyllotaxy I am happy


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 17, 2008)

Ok.... a couple days ago, I noticed that I had female pre-flowers on one of my blackberrys! Right at the node, two little pods had opened up, one of them had 2 stamins that were already orangish, the other has white stamins coming out. I took a picture but it's really small and not coming out very good (when I push the button, the camera moves enough to fuck the picture up) Needless to say I was pretty stoked, as it is my second best Blackberry, second only to Tripod (as my friend CannaSeur so affectionately named it). Anyway, I checked the others at that point and I didn't see any more pre-flowers.

Fast foreward to today, and I'm looking through the garden, when I happen be checking out the Tripod and see what looks to me like a tiny little pod, even smaller than the other plant's, with 2 teensy tiny white stamins coming out.... It is literally so small that I know i won't be able to get a photo of it for at least a couple more days. So I guess this plant is Female! I will take a picture in a couple days when its a little bigger, and maybe more will be visible. Until then, Just take my word for it. I'm so fuckin' happy! I have never had a plant that showed female and then turned male, so it looks like Tripod is a girl!


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 18, 2008)

Ok, I took pictures of both pre-flower sites, one on each plant. the one on Tripod is really really small, because there is an extra branch at each node, that means that each pre-flower pod gets a little less room because there are 6 at each node instead of 4. So first I'm gonna show the best couple pictures I got of the regular Blackberry with female pre-flowers, and then the best couple shots I got of the female pre-flower on Tripod. These are also my 2 best plants from this variety so far, so I would have had to use one of them as a monther if the other one had gone male. This way, I can harvest my best non tripod Blackberry!!!  I included a couple shots of each because since the pre-flowers are so small, it is hard to get a good shot of them. I think there is a pretty good shot in either case, and shot 4 turned out really good, which was the most important one since it is on my Blackberry named Tripod, the one with the whorled phyllotaxy! Tell me what you guys think!

1) Female pre-flowers on a regular Blackberry, this shot is a little fuzzy. Hairs are still white on the left pod, already turned orange on the right pod.
2) Another shot of the same plant and same pre-flower, but less blurry.
3) First female preflower on Tripod, it is very small but it is in the dead center, so you should be able to see it. 
4) This pic is a little less fuzzy. Looks like a girl to me!!! Dead center in the pic, I see a pod opened up with 2 white hairs coming out! It is on the one node that only had 2 fan leaves, but it's interesting to note that even this node has three budding sites, you can even see right below the pre-flower where the third fan leaf almost grew, but then didnt.


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## Karmacidal (Jun 19, 2008)

Looks female to me, too. Very nice looking plants btw.


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## Mr. Maryjane (Jun 19, 2008)

man, are you gonna clone that tripod? you should, you really should. I'd pay quite a bit for a rooted clone. but seriously you should keep that plant around, like try to breed a strain that's like that, and if you don't wanna do it, give me a clone and I'll do it


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## Kodank Moment (Jun 19, 2008)

Haha...I am sure he has got that breeding part covered. No worries.


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## anhedonia (Jun 19, 2008)

marijuanajoe1982 said:


> Ok.... a couple days ago, I noticed that I had female pre-flowers on one of my blackberrys! Right at the node, two little pods had opened up, one of them had 2 stamins that were already orangish, the other has white stamins coming out. I took a picture but it's really small and not coming out very good (when I push the button, the camera moves enough to fuck the picture up) Needless to say I was pretty stoked, as it is my second best Blackberry, second only to Tripod (as my friend CannaSeur so affectionately named it). Anyway, I checked the others at that point and I didn't see any more pre-flowers.
> 
> Fast foreward to today, and I'm looking through the garden, when I happen be checking out the Tripod and see what looks to me like a tiny little pod, even smaller than the other plant's, with 2 teensy tiny white stamins coming out.... It is literally so small that I know i won't be able to get a photo of it for at least a couple more days. So I guess this plant is Female! I will take a picture in a couple days when its a little bigger, and maybe more will be visible. Until then, Just take my word for it. I'm so fuckin' happy! I have never had a plant that showed female and then turned male, so it looks like Tripod is a girl!


isnt staminate male an pistilate female? Yeah, im sure he is referring t the female pistils.


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## colem8 (Jun 19, 2008)

VFW - vincent f*#ked a whore


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 19, 2008)

anhedonia said:


> isnt staminate male an pistilate female? Yeah, im sure he is referring t the female pistils.


Hey, thanks for catching my fau pas. I was really excited not to mention quite high. You got me bro, +rep for catching the slip-up. Of course I meant pistils, or "pistols" as some refer to them (lol), have been appearing, my bad. This forum gives a pass for being so stoned, as well as excited, I'm sure


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 19, 2008)

Mr. Maryjane said:


> man, are you gonna clone that tripod? you should, you really should. I'd pay quite a bit for a rooted clone. but seriously you should keep that plant around, like try to breed a strain that's like that, and if you don't wanna do it, give me a clone and I'll do it


Yes. I plan on moving it outdoors before my flowering has gone one for more than a week or two. Basically when the best plants show sex, and I am able to pick my mothers and fathers and move them into some sunny spots (very far apart) outside, they should revert back to veg long enough for me to take plenty of clones, and it will keep them vegging for awhile. How long can I safely leave them outside before I would need to worry about the flowering process starting. It does start before the Atumnal Equinox, however, which is technically natures 12/12 (correct me if I'm wrong). I could make quite a few clones, in July, I think. but I have never cloned before. I think I have everything necessary for the process, and will be able to start the process very soon. PM me, Mr.Maryjane, perhaps you can offer some guidance on the subject . Also, tell me what you think about my plan, it should work out just fine (at least through July. I just gotta keep them in veg, 1 month outside at this time of the year shouldn't cause flowering, right? after that they will have to go back to the flowering room, and what would I do with the clones? they would need to be vegged. If I can get some of those early flowerers out, just enough to build a small veg area just until everything else is done flowering. Its not like I have a veg room and a flower room. I have a veg room that turns into a flower room. sometimes mother nature can be a veg room, but not forever.


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## nepali grizzly (Jun 20, 2008)

Nice plants. Same thing is happening to my mutant plant. Not sure about the sex yet, should be showing soon. here's some pics.


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 20, 2008)

nepali grizzly said:


> Nice plants. Same thing is happening to my mutant plant. Not sure about the sex yet, should be showing soon. here's some pics.


It doesn't look like the EXACT same mutation, but it is very similar. You seem to have 4 fan leaves coming off that one node. Good to know i'm not the only one with a mutant, though . How old is it? What variety is yours, Griz? Mine is Blackberry from VISC.


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 20, 2008)

Griz, after looking at your pics a bit more, it looks like all nodes have 4 branches, is this the case? It is often hard to capture everything with just a camera, I have found out trying to take pics of Tripod. Anyway, how would you describe your strange growth pattern?


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## nepali grizzly (Jun 20, 2008)

my plant is almost a month old and it is splitting into 2 at the 6th node, at the 1st node it has the normal 2 leaves then from the 2nd-6th nodes have the 4 leaves per node. It looks like the stem is 2 plants conjoined. One of the two branches at the top is triple noded and the other is normal. Can't wait till it gets more growth so i can see it better. Its kinda tough to explain...


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## nepali grizzly (Jun 20, 2008)

Oh and its either grizzly or hash plant x grizzly, not too sure. Some of my seeds got mixed up.


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 20, 2008)

nepali grizzly said:


> my plant is almost a month old and it is splitting into 2 at the 6th node, at the 1st node it has the normal 2 leaves then from the 2nd-6th nodes have the 4 leaves per node. It looks like the stem is 2 plants conjoined. One of the two branches at the top is triple noded and the other is normal. Can't wait till it gets more growth so i can see it better. Its kinda tough to explain...


I have a branch that was supposed to be a fan leaf but instead became this gnarly budding branch, and it's racing to catch the tri-noded top. It's growth pattern is normal, not trinoded. Also I've mentioned it before, but I have a G13 Haze that has split into two on its own. I don't know why I have so much genetic anomalies in such a small population. I've never experienced anything like this before, in all my outdoor seasons. Usually most outdoor strains I've grown have been homogenous with only a size-difference in most cases when it came to different phenotypes. This round I have a couple really unique phenotypes and some oddball mutations. Should be fune when its time to breed  Anyway,  out! I will go take pics now and post soon.


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 21, 2008)

ok, I'm a man of my word, so heres some pictures I took just before I gave them a little water. They certainly are starting to drink more as those root systems grow! I used to have to water twice a week, now its every other day. It looks like all plants have been taking the 1/4 strength veg nutes I gave them 3 waters ago. I got pics og the Blackberry Tripod we all know and love, as well as some new pics of the G13 Haze that split on it's own. Also just a couple pics of the garden. Hope you enjoy them, I certainly am. How does everything look? They are about a month and a half old, in case you are just tuning in .  out.
1) Blackberry Tripod, bird's eye view with main cola and secondary "cola".
2) Blackberry Tripod, interior shot. Still retains whorled phyllotaxy.
3) G13 Haze w/ 2 tops, bird's eye view showing both tops, neither seems dominant.
4) G13 Haze w/ 2 tops, interior shot from a couple days ago.
5) G13 Haze w/ 2 topd, interior shot taken just now.
6) Here's the whole garden!
7) Right side of the garden (can you spot Tripod?)
 Left side of the garden (can you spot the 2 topped G13 Haze?)


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## Mr. Maryjane (Jun 21, 2008)

where did you two get you seeds from, cause I'm trying to breed some cool mutations into truebreeding strain of their own.


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## marijuanajoe1982 (Jun 21, 2008)

Thats the odd part, Blackberry and another VISC strain (Fuckin' Incredible) were sent from kindseeds.com(good selection of canadian seeds), while my Barneys G13 Haze came from sensibleseeds.com(better selection & prices, but no canadian seeds). They were sent in different packs from different online stores, the Barney's from sensible seeds was still in unopened original packing. Potentially I think just about any seed from any sounce can wind up with traits like this. It is unusual, from what I understand, so pass the mutant trait to the next generation. My seeds from will probably Tripod will probably be as if they had come from any of my other stud Blackberries. 

I'm gonna breed with her because she is the best example of her atrain anyway, so even if I don't get the gene for whorled phyllotaxy, I can hopefully get her vigor as a seedling and height and quite possibly strong smoke. We will see. If I am able to breed the two mutants together, I will (as 2 top G13 Haze hasn't shown sex yet). However, I am hoping they both go female. I think a NATURAL 2 cola female would be something to breed your strong males with. 2 colas naturally? Usually you ned to peform the operation of topping. That's like the difference to natural DDD's, and saleen implant DDD's! In both cases the natural is more desireable for 

lol,  out!


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## green thumb matt (Mar 1, 2009)

just genetics


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