# A tribute to Uncle Ben and the Almighty Leaf



## Rocketman64 (Jul 24, 2013)

After reading some of Uncle Ben's teachings on this forum, I've come to the conclusion that him and I are cut from the same cloth. I've always been a big proponent of making sure my plants are healthy and the soil is ripe. After 30 years of growing I've learned that buds mean nothing until after they're harvested. It's all about the leaves. They will give you all the information you need when it comes to condition of your soil, watering requirements, possible infestations and most importantly root performance. I cringe when I see posts dedicated to defoliation but hey, to each his own. If it works for you- go for it. For me, it's all about my leaves. So, as a tribute to Uncle Ben and his Almighty Leaf: no sticky bud pictures, no 10' colas, no guerilla garden- just plain ole' leaves. Enjoy!View attachment 2748570View attachment 2748572View attachment 2748573View attachment 2748574View attachment 2748575View attachment 2748580View attachment 2748585


----------



## Malevolence (Jul 24, 2013)

Nice leafs... I try to keep mine pristine, but they often end up turning leathery and papery. Any idea what might cause that?


----------



## Wavels (Jul 24, 2013)

Cutting off healthy leaves is profoundly silly...Uncle Ben has done a lot of heavy lifting in his valiant attempt to help well intended but woefully misguided growers.

Thanks for the assist Rocketman.


----------



## Rocketman64 (Jul 24, 2013)

Malevolence said:


> Nice leafs... I try to keep mine pristine, but they often end up turning leathery and papery. Any idea what might cause that?


The only thing that comes to mind is the plants natural response to heat stress. I suspect that along with curling and eventually turning brown in extreme conditions, the leaves may be developing a natural defense to keep moisture from evaporating too quickly. I'm assuming it may be trying to protect itself. I also suspect this is an indication that the roots are not taking up water at a sufficient level. Pay attention to new growth. Are the new leaves healthy, bright green and soft? Make sure the roots have room to roam a bit. Good, loose, leafy soil allows the primary roots to develop smaller, secondary shoots to seek out even more moisture. If moisture levels become too low in the soil, the plant will slow growth and probably divert moisture to newer growth allowing the older leaves to fend for themselves, so to speak. All this, of course is just an assumption since I know nothing about your grow. Leaves are amazing in their ability to adapt to their surroundings without you ever knowing it. It's also amazing to me they can both absorb as well as evaporate moisture from it's surface. Never let the soil become completely dry, bad things start to happen. Most new growers are quick to jump on the assumption their plant needs some kind of crazy Super Duper Extreme Veg Blaster nutrient formula. Huh? NO! Just keep the root ball moist (not drenched) and make sure your grow medium allows those secondary roots to roam a bit. Maybe Uncle Ben can chime in and either confirm or deny if we're on the right track here. Are you growing indoor or outdoor when your leaves turn leathery?


----------



## Malevolence (Jul 24, 2013)

I grow indoor deep water culture. My temps are hitting 88* but last grow they were more like 81* and the papery leaf thing was worse... different strains. Also I am running silica which should help them handle a little heat. I have notice no leaf taco. I was just wondering if there was a general or common thing that makes old leafs turn papery. The new leaf is soft and supple in veg, but my plants are in bloom right now and just shooting out sugar leaf. The biggest oldest fan leafs are the most leather/paper feeling.


----------



## Rocketman64 (Jul 24, 2013)

Malevolence said:


> I grow indoor deep water culture. My temps are hitting 88* but last grow they were more like 81* and the papery leaf thing was worse... different strains. Also I am running silica which should help them handle a little heat. I have notice no leaf taco. I was just wondering if there was a general or common thing that makes old leafs turn papery. The new leaf is soft and supple in veg, but my plants are in bloom right now and just shooting out sugar leaf. The biggest oldest fan leafs are the most leather/paper feeling.


Out of my league with the deep water culture. All I can think of when I hear leather/paper feeling is not enough moisture uptake through the roots. How does the root system work in this system? Are they free to expand at their own rate or are they managed/controlled some how?


----------



## Sir.Ganga (Jul 24, 2013)

Malevolence said:


> I grow indoor deep water culture. My temps are hitting 88* but last grow they were more like 81* and the papery leaf thing was worse... different strains. Also I am running silica which should help them handle a little heat. I have notice no leaf taco. I was just wondering if there was a general or common thing that makes old leafs turn papery. The new leaf is soft and supple in veg, but my plants are in bloom right now and just shooting out sugar leaf. The biggest oldest fan leafs are the most leather/paper feeling.


This kind of answers your previous question. Why those leaves go leathery and/or crisp and browning are because you have taken an outdoor environment and stuffed into a room. If your growing indoors and your not pruning or trimming you are losing out on the full potential of this plant, when grown indoors that is. Research and Development is a valuable tool in the advancement of any topic. How is that Model T working for you. Its common sense...that's it. UB has a vast knowledge base, that is for sure, if you follow his instructions and comments you will grow some good cannabis. If you want to LEARN to grow in the year 2013 and want answers to your questions or are looking for every gram for your dollars than there are much better ways to grow than his methods, so please read his comments for enjoyment and look for real answers somewhere else.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 24, 2013)

Well done! Even though off topic, I just added a few comments here - https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get-242.html

Those who practice defoliation simply don't understand botany, nor are they interested in it.

Again, if you concentrate ONLY on the leaves and the roots, producing as much as possible and maintaining those units in a healthy condition until harvest, you'll get plenty of bud.

Grow hard,
Uncle Ben


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 24, 2013)

Malevolence said:


> Nice leafs... I try to keep mine pristine, but they often end up turning leathery and papery. Any idea what might cause that?
> 
> ....but last grow they were more like 81* and the papery leaf thing was worse...


Wrong approach to plant culture..... most liking centered around the wrong choice of salts (food). See my tweaks, first page. BTW, never used silica. Hell, never used much of any thing you good ol boys use.

BTW, 81F is "cold" by my standards, even 88F is great. Never failed, at least once during my garden's life it would hit around 100F, couldn't control it because I lived in a hot area where even the winters would get these very high spikes, hot SW winds coming off Mexico. The second photo on that cola link I gave you shows what such a high heat episode looks like, with upward leaf margin curling/rolling. And once that kind of "aw shit" hits, it will never flatten out. Damage is done. Doesn't really matter in the real world as long as you know that at least 80% of the leaf surface is healthy and conducting photosynthesis. Curl might be there but so is the healthy green leaf tissue.

UB


----------



## Rocketman64 (Jul 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Wrong approach to plant culture..... most liking centered around the wrong choice of salts (food). See my tweaks, first page. BTW, never used silica. Hell, never used much of any thing you good ol boys use.
> 
> BTW, 81F is "cold" by my standards, even 88F is great. Never failed, at least once during my garden's life it would hit around 100F, couldn't control it because I lived in a hot area where even the winters would get these very high spikes, hot SW winds coming off Mexico. The second photo on that cola link I gave you shows what such a high heat episode looks like, with upward leaf margin curling/rolling. And once that kind of "aw shit" hits, it will never flatten out. Damage is done. Doesn't really matter in the real world as long as you know that at least 80% of the leaf surface is healthy and conducting photosynthesis. Curl might be there but so is the healthy green leaf tissue.
> 
> UB


Often wondered what the 'death' temperature is for most cannabis. I get concerned sometimes when my ambient temps outside hit over 95. They never really seem to mind it much. I imagine areas where cannabis grows wild in other parts of the world temps climb into the mid 100's and they tolerate it with no problem. Evolution is a powerful thing.


----------



## MYOB (Jul 28, 2013)

If there is a light saturation point, is there also a point where the leaves can get too little light?


----------



## Vincent VonBlown (Jul 28, 2013)

Light saturation? You mean like light bleaching? Get your tops to close to a HID, and, there you go.... To little light = elongating of stem and dwarfing of leaf production...


----------



## Vincent VonBlown (Jul 28, 2013)

Plants are like people, for example, put your hand towards your light source. Where it feels about right, and there is no warmth or discomfort... And that's about where you want the tops of your plants to be at... Now let me ask you, how do YOU personally, like your temps in general as a human being? ...... In your home, Do you like it to be say about a 100 degrees all day. then maybe swing down to 55 at night?..... No you wouldn't, you would probably like it about around 75 or so constantly... That's the temp you would most likely feel and perform best at. It's the same with plants, they like to be babied with nice constant temps, just like people and animals do...


----------



## Vincent VonBlown (Jul 28, 2013)

Outdoor cannabis produces a better grade of product, the better the conditions it receives when growing and flowering... There is NO way around that! Weathering, impacts quality, the more weathering the worse it gets. It's as simple as that, it's basic biology, that most anybody that has ever grown anything outdoors will know...


----------



## Vincent VonBlown (Jul 28, 2013)

I think one of the problems might be, the disassociation of changing temps and the amount of light produced. Higher temps, usually indicate more light outdoors. But that's not always the case, temps can increase for a number or reasons. And while greater amounts of light are usually productive, especially in areas that don't get as much light... The amount, and intensity of light, is obviously greater at the equator and shorts itself as you move toward either poll.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 28, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> Plants are like people, for example, put your hand towards your light source. Where it feels about right, and there is no warmth or discomfort... And that's about where you want the tops of your plants to be at...


No disrepect, but that is another one of those erroneous forum paradigms, parroting, that just won't die. You can have a leaf temperature of 80F but if there's too much light, you'll seriously damage the chloroplasts, bleach out the chlorophyll, and decrease or eliminate photosynthesis entirely resulting in leaf damage or necrosis. I wish people would stop trying to take the easy way out by confusing, equating, light and temps. An HID can easily have more f.c. than the sun. Folks who don't use a light meter won't understand that though.

It's all about a plant's light saturation point. Find it, and stay just below it.

Uncle Ben


----------



## Shivaskunk (Jul 28, 2013)

I sometimes wondermif UB doesnt make aliases on here to pat himsepf on the back. im pretty high though.


----------



## canefan (Jul 28, 2013)

Alienwidow said:


> Ya, im engauging you in a debate and i was awaiting an answer. I was poking in the badgers nest. I didnt know likes ment so much to an old fart.


Engaging in debate? I don't think so. As far as UB shitty sativa pics you haven't grown landrace sativas that much is clear. Most of us old farts are here to help new growers young and old alike, teach and share what we have learned through decades of growing these plants and plants in general. I suggest study a little bit I am pretty certain that we old farts, donkeys or whatever other names you have for people, have forgotten more about plants than you now think you know.


----------



## Sir.Ganga (Jul 28, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> Outdoor cannabis produces a better grade of product, the better the conditions it receives when growing and flowering... There is NO way around that!


I have a degree in botany and I can say for certain that plants grown under ideal conditions indoors are far more healthy and produce a better product all the way around. Canola is a good example of this, 30 years ago it was not a crop that farmers wanted due to the low yields and harvesting issues. Due to Research and development in a building(indoors) we were able to increase the yields 10 fold. Canola has now equaled the acres of wheat in my province. Why? Because we were able to eliminate outside factors and control the tests properly.


----------



## Malevolence (Jul 28, 2013)

They should just change the name of this section to advanced uncle ben troll tactics and techniques.

Let's see if he gets his own tribute thread locked.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 29, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> I have a degree in botany


Sure you do. And I'm a rocket engineer getting ready to fly some cannabis to Mars.


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 29, 2013)

High P diets are a major contributor to leathery leaves....


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 29, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> I have a degree in botany and I can say for certain that plants grown under ideal conditions indoors are far more healthy and produce a better product all the way around. Canola is a good example of this, 30 years ago it was not a crop that farmers wanted due to the low yields and harvesting issues. Due to Research and development in a building(indoors) we were able to increase the yields 10 fold. Canola has now equaled the acres of wheat in my province. Why? Because we were able to eliminate outside factors and control the tests properly.


Then please share some titles of the new age text books thats schools all over North America are using teaching increased yield with defoliation? How many times do we have to ask these simple requests of you? You have run your mouth plenty enough, its time you actually start backing it up.....


----------



## RockyMtnMan (Jul 29, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> I have a degree in botany and I can say for certain that plants grown under ideal conditions indoors are far more healthy and produce a better product all the way around. Canola is a good example of this, 30 years ago it was not a crop that farmers wanted due to the low yields and harvesting issues. Due to Research and development in a building(indoors) we were able to increase the yields 10 fold. Canola has now equaled the acres of wheat in my province. Why? Because we were able to eliminate outside factors and control the tests properly.


I'm sure you were able to produce positive results indoors after selection and breeding, producing plants that were suited to the Canadian environment.
I'm sure it thrives in the regions where it is indigenous outside Canada as well.
Most mj growers who are growing outside have also used a similar breeding and selection processes.
A handful of mixed cannabis ceeds grown outside would probably not produce the desired result either.
But through strain selection mj growers are able to find plants that thrive well in their geographical areas outside and love it!
I wish I could throw down some 7 footers!


----------



## A Bloke Down The Pub (Jul 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'm a rocket engineer getting ready to fly some cannabis to Mars.


That's a blatant fib.


----------



## puffdatchronic (Jul 29, 2013)

why not post pics of the whole leaf.. you could be hiding something.


----------



## lilroach (Jul 29, 2013)

wow.....a troll calling someone else a troll.

I'm nowhere near being an expert, but I can tell you that for the last six months I've made it a goal to challenge some of the thought-processes that go on here and other grow sites. I can tell you that the techniques Uncle Ben has shared work a lot better than the crap I've been told at the hydro-stores and on here.

"Miracle Grow is crap" is one that I'm currently dispelling as I have a very nice plant growing in nothing but MG and is in 12/12 without one added nutrient and is doing well. Another is the BS about "organic" nutrients. I'm using "Jacks" blossom builder for my other plants and have 2' long buds (with very healthy leaves) that are blasting off the plant. Jacks is recommended by Uncle Ben.

I did the lollipopping before, and it's all hogwash if you ask me. Leaves are the solar panels of our plants and what sense does it make to blast a plant with 1000 watts if there's few leaves to absorb the energy?

Uncle Ben and Rockymtnman are my gurus...and I'm thankful that they take their time to share their valuable experience.

View attachment 2755098View attachment 2755099


----------



## RockyMtnMan (Jul 29, 2013)

I appreciate the compliments but am a long way from ever seeing results like uncle Ben's, or learning any where close to what he knows.
I am a book junkie and a "show me how and why" kind of guy. 
Uncle Ben's experience alone shows that before all this internet bullshit and misinformation, he had this shit dialed in years ago!

You can't argue with results!


----------



## RockyMtnMan (Jul 29, 2013)

Oh and for all you noobs out there,
Quit worrying so much, relax and enjoy the experience of watching your plants grow.
Stop overthinking, overanalyzing, over-testing of meters and bullshit, and enjoy the ride!

How do you suppose we ever grew before the internet? 

Where in the fuck was I going to get Fox Farm nutes back in the 80's?

Wake up and smell the ganga, it's been growing around you for years!


----------



## Rocketman64 (Jul 29, 2013)

puffdatchronic said:


> why not post pics of the whole leaf.. you could be hiding something.


Actually, all I was doing when I posted the pics was showing off a new camera I purchased. The thing shoots killer close-ups, figured a couple pics focused on just parts of leaves looked cool. I wasn't hiding anything with partial pics. I never meant to start a penis measuring contest between methods of cultivation. Can't we all just agree cultivation by itself is just plain cool no matter how it's done?


----------



## Rocketman64 (Jul 29, 2013)

RockyMtnMan said:


> Oh and for all you noobs out there,
> Quit worrying so much, relax and enjoy the experience of watching your plants grow.
> Stop overthinking, overanalyzing, over-testing of meters and bullshit, and enjoy the ride!
> 
> ...


I couldn't help but responding to this one. I had this exact conversation with a fellow grower that's been at it as long as I have. We had a good laugh at some of the names of the crazy shit that's available for growing. We recalled several occasions simply tossing seeds in sunny areas in the spring and collecting the plants in the fall. All that being said, I do have a soft spot for solid research and development that promote methods and ideas that _actually _work. In that vain, I'm always keeping an open mind for ideas that show promise. As far as I can tell, there's been plenty of proof that indoor cultivation can be done with amazing results. Those of us that prefer a lot simpler approach also get amazing results. We can argue all day whose methods produce more at what cost but the truth is, we can all agree the main goal is to raise healthy plants. I'll do it my way, you do it yours. I'll learn from you, you learn from me. Sorry to start a shit storm by calling this a 'tribute'.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2013)

RockyMtnMan said:


> Oh and for all you noobs out there,
> Quit worrying so much, relax and enjoy the experience of watching your plants grow.
> Stop overthinking, overanalyzing, over-testing of meters and bullshit, and enjoy the ride!
> 
> ...


Great points. The internet and forums like this have set back gardening decades. The focus is not on sound gardening principles anymore but on trends, gimmicks, parroting, misguided paradigms and such. They just have to make such an easy thing as complicated and confusing as they can. Grower's fault though. Many folks are too lazy to empower themselves by learning solid, accepted conventional gardening techniques so they become slaves to the hype and product lines.

Before the internet I learned the basics of flipping cycles to get flowering responses, about genetics, etc. from Mel Frank's book which is still one of the most solid, classics available not only on cannabis, but plants in general. If you want to make hash oil and do other stuff, then buy Jorge's bible.

The delivery of nutritional salts and water is immaterial - water culture, organic soil culture or soil-less...... it's all good as long as you understand plant nutrition and what makes a plant tick.

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Come on man, this type of blatant disrespect to users you disagree with is simply childish. Please cease and desist. Congrats on the ego boost you got via this thread, but really it doesn't make you somehow better than everyone else.


Since the Thought Police censored my original response to this bull, I'll just cut to the chase - you're a self righteous hypocrite and phony who has gone out of his way to troll and trash some of my threads. One being closed for example.
*
"Shit, we really trolled it up this time."* At least you admitted being a troll. That is the honorable thing to do. 

https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/570037-so-you-noobs-hooked-cannabis-17.html


----------



## ricky1lung (Jul 30, 2013)

Well this was fun.


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 30, 2013)

Sir Trolls A Lot you are a typical punk kid that has a shotgun mouth, but only a bb gun ass to back it up.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Since the Thought Police censored my original response to this bull, I'll just cut to the chase - you're a self righteous hypocrite and phony who has gone out of his way to troll and trash some of my threads. One being closed for example.
> *
> "Shit, we really trolled it up this time."* At least you admitted being a troll. That is the honorable thing to do.
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/570037-so-you-noobs-hooked-cannabis-17.html


LOL, that thread you linked there is a troll thread started by you! Yes, I trolled your troll thread. Self-righteous? Kettle call pot black much?


----------



## jumpy0ne (Jul 30, 2013)

Shivaskunk said:


> I sometimes wondermif UB doesnt make aliases on here to pat himsepf on the back. im pretty high though.


Well I do love a conspiracy......


----------



## genuity (Jul 30, 2013)

will UB ever post some 2013 bud pics/leaf pics/soil pics/any up to date pics...?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2013)

Rocketman64 said:


> I couldn't help but responding to this one. I had this exact conversation with a fellow grower that's been at it as long as I have. We had a good laugh at some of the names of the crazy shit that's available for growing.


I hear ya, it really is hilarious. All smoke-n-mirrors. Excuse the pun, but there is no industry as "seedy" as the cannabis industry.


----------



## Rocketman64 (Jul 30, 2013)

Hey UB, I just saw a post you made saying you're a rocket engineer. I've been in the high power rocketry community for 15 years. It's another one of my many hobbies. Are you gainfully employed as an engineer? Love the rockets, ever since I was a kid watching the space race with the Russians. I still launch experimental/research vehicles with a great group of people in The Tripoli Rocketry Org. You ever get into the hobby rocketry stuff?


----------



## Vincent VonBlown (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm not a certified botanist either. But even if you've never grown, or studied any type of science. It's common sense, that All things have a point in temperature where they function best. Everything is more or less based on temperature and chemical reactions from those temp. variations.


----------



## Vincent VonBlown (Jul 30, 2013)

Or let me go Vic High on you for a moment, and bring some dogs into this... Dogs live outside right? And they grow thick coats, to keep warm in the winter etc. right? Well, if you bring a dog to live in a house. Do you adjust the temps inside your house to mimic the temps outside, so the dog can function properly?.. No, you wouldn't do that, the dog adjusts by not growing a thick coat for winter. And the dog enjoys himself more living in a nice place


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 31, 2013)

Rocketman64 said:


> Hey UB, I just saw a post you made saying you're a rocket engineer. I've been in the high power rocketry community for 15 years. It's another one of my many hobbies. Are you gainfully employed as an engineer? Love the rockets, ever since I was a kid watching the space race with the Russians. I still launch experimental/research vehicles with a great group of people in The Tripoli Rocketry Org. You ever get into the hobby rocketry stuff?


I was kidding but yes I've been into rocketry. Back in the old days, late 50's early 60's, we could buy any chemicals we wanted. So, I got into making rocket engines (and fireworks) using tools you could order via mail and packing them with something like potassium nitrate+sugar, potassium chlorate+sugar, powdered zinc+sulfur. Made stuff like mercury fulminate. The tool to make the engine was nozzle shaped, spindle turned out of a 3/4" dowel on a base so that when you got thru packing a 3/4" X 8" cardboard tube you had a clay nozzle and then a hole up the middle of the fuel so that it really kicked ass. The fuel would burn side to side like modern solid fuel engines and then the last 3" was end burning. You could finish it off with a clay plug at the top, fuse, and gunpowder charge for a parachute. A "holy" towel was used to pack the engine starting with damp powdered clay as the nozzle and then the fuel itself dropped in about a TBLSP at a time and then packed down with the dowel/mallet which had a hole through the middle of it so it could slip over the tapered spindle. Bought dynamite fuse in 150' rolls....all kinds of neat stuff. Thanks to our Muslim "friends", those days are over. 

No mas!


----------



## Sir.Ganga (Jul 31, 2013)

RockyMtnMan said:


> I'm sure you were able to produce positive results indoors after selection and breeding, producing plants that were suited to the Canadian environment.
> I'm sure it thrives in the regions where it is indigenous outside Canada as well.
> Most mj growers who are growing outside have also used a similar breeding and selection processes.
> A handful of mixed cannabis ceeds grown outside would probably not produce the desired result either.
> ...


 A man that sounds like he actually knows what the hell he is talking about! Your right all of that comes into play when trying to change parameters for growth. Its all about strain selection indoors or out. Outdoor selection will be looking for different pheno's and traits that better suit an outdoor environment, the same goes for indoors or greenhouse growing. You would not knowingly put a 12 foot Sativa in a greenhouse environment, but that doesn't mean you have to walk away from that strain either. Research and Development is an important factor these days, its too bad not ALL of us understand it.


Alexander Supertramp said:


> Then please share some titles of the new age text books thats schools all over North America are using teaching increased yield with defoliation? How many times do we have to ask these simple requests of you? You have run your mouth plenty enough, its time you actually start backing it up.....


 Obviously you need to go back now...my new age texts are from the 90's...Not that new, actually most of what I have PROVEN is STANDARD PRACTISE in ANY real greenhouse application TODAY. I have shown more than enough proof that you just dismiss when its not what you want to here. You...alexander supertramp, and the staring attraction...uncle ben...DO...I REPEAT...DO know this stuff and for reasons unknown to me you are here just trying to mis-guide people and demean. I will not play you games anymore, not only have I proved my point but have shown the people just what kind of growers(and I use that term loosely)you actually are. Like I said to UB, I don't hold grudges so really its O.K. to ask for advise.


----------



## RockyMtnMan (Jul 31, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I was kidding but yes I've been into rocketry. Back in the old days, late 50's early 60's, we could buy any chemicals we wanted. So, I got into making rocket engines (and fireworks) using tools you could order via mail and packing them with something like potassium nitrate+sugar, potassium chlorate+sugar, powdered zinc+sulfur. Made stuff like mercury fulminate. The tool to make the engine was nozzle shaped, spindle turned out of a 3/4" dowel on a base so that when you got thru packing a 3/4" X 8" cardboard tube you had a clay nozzle and then a hole up the middle of the fuel so that it really kicked ass. The fuel would burn side to side like modern solid fuel engines and then the last 3" was end burning. You could finish it off with a clay plug at the top, fuse, and gunpowder charge for a parachute. A "holy" towel was used to pack the engine starting with damp powdered clay as the nozzle and then the fuel itself dropped in about a TBLSP at a time and then packed down with the dowel/mallet which had a hole through the middle of it so it could slip over the tapered spindle. Bought dynamite fuse in 150' rolls....all kinds of neat stuff. Thanks to our Muslim "friends", those days are over.
> 
> No mas!


I still have in my possession, a copy of the Anarchist Cookbook I got when I was 18 in 1980. (fulminate of mercury is one of the recipes)
I hope I was not just placed on a government watch list. 

Try getting a copy now, or try and check out "The Art of War" at the library.

Maybe it was my small town, but I had to fill out a form and she called me in three days when it "came in".
Be careful anyone if you search the "Anarchist Cookbook", go through a filter or a public terminal. This book pisses a lot of people off!


----------



## RockyMtnMan (Jul 31, 2013)

Oh yeh, and don't smoke nettles, banana skins, orange pith and thistles as suggested in a couple chapters under other ways to get high. (you'll get a headache! lol)

Some of the chapters are funny, but I HEARD (never tried of course) that some of the recipes work


----------



## lilroach (Jul 31, 2013)

I went to school to learn Network Administration for computer networks...I'm a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer. I thought I knew everything to know about computers when I finished in 2000. Of all the things I know about computers now, what I learned in school is probably 5% of my total knowledge. The other 95% is from years of hands-on experience.

And I now know there's a ton more I don't know.

I say this because I would rather get my knowledge from someone that's been growing pot for decades over someone that has only been growing 4-5 years. There's no substitute for experience.

The problem with this site and all the other grow sites is the massive noise of misinformation. Just about every mistake I've made during my short period of growing has been because I've followed the advice of so-called experts, and until I latched onto one grower....rockymtnman and now Uncle Ben.....I was continuing to make new (and sometimes expensive) mistakes. These "old timers" advice has been consistent.....and much has very little to do with hyped nutrients, snake oil, PH BS, and hydro-shop sales pitches.

I am thankful that there's what seems to be a small handful of old timers on here to set the record straight.....for they have years of experience to draw from.


----------



## Rocketman64 (Jul 31, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I was kidding but yes I've been into rocketry. Back in the old days, late 50's early 60's, we could buy any chemicals we wanted. So, I got into making rocket engines (and fireworks) using tools you could order via mail and packing them with something like potassium nitrate+sugar, potassium chlorate+sugar, powdered zinc+sulfur. Made stuff like mercury fulminate. The tool to make the engine was nozzle shaped, spindle turned out of a 3/4" dowel on a base so that when you got thru packing a 3/4" X 8" cardboard tube you had a clay nozzle and then a hole up the middle of the fuel so that it really kicked ass. The fuel would burn side to side like modern solid fuel engines and then the last 3" was end burning. You could finish it off with a clay plug at the top, fuse, and gunpowder charge for a parachute. A "holy" towel was used to pack the engine starting with damp powdered clay as the nozzle and then the fuel itself dropped in about a TBLSP at a time and then packed down with the dowel/mallet which had a hole through the middle of it so it could slip over the tapered spindle. Bought dynamite fuse in 150' rolls....all kinds of neat stuff. Thanks to our Muslim "friends", those days are over.
> 
> No mas!


Believe it or not, we still do make our rocket motors. We're using a much more advanced type of solid rocket fuel than black powder, zinc/sulphur and the like. We use the same basic formulations as the solid rocket boosters on the space shuttle. It's an ammonium perchlorate/aluminum powder mixture held together with a rubber-like binder. It mixes a bit like playdoh or can be made pourable more like pancake batter. When it cures it has the consistency of a super ball- spongy but firm. We fill phenolic liners using mandrels for a specific size core through the center. This propagates flame through the entire length of the motor casing resulting in instant pressure in the motor case. Nozzles are graphite, casings are aluminum and closures are typically held together with snap rings and O-rings. Of course there are hundreds of formulas for mixing different motors depending on burn time desired or color of flame desired. Rocketry has come a long way since we were messing with Estes rockets on the school playground. Just do a search for high power rocketry in Google if you want to see some pretty cool stuff. I like growing almost as much as launching big, obnoxious rockets it just takes a little longer to get the desired results. Funny, it seems there's still as much research and work to get a decent plant yield as there is to launch a somewhat complicated rocket, go figure. For me, the journey is as rewarding as the final result, kinda why I like these types of hobbies.


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 31, 2013)

RockyMtnMan said:


> Oh yeh, and don't smoke nettles, banana skins, orange pith and thistles as suggested in a couple chapters under other ways to get high. (you'll get a headache! lol)
> 
> Some of the chapters are funny, but I HEARD (never tried of course) that some of the recipes work


Smoking nettles I dont think so. But pick them in the spring, young and tender, and they make a tasty, healthy addition too any diet.
http://www.wildhealthfood.com/the-benefits-of-eating-nettles


----------



## RockyMtnMan (Jul 31, 2013)

Yeh I have eaten them and fiddle ferns sautéed in butter and garlic.
My post with a reference to a banned book and these smoking suggestions contained therein has been deleted.
I think the mods may have done me a favor and I will speak of it no more.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 31, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> A man that sounds like he actually knows what the hell he is talking about! Your right all of that comes into play when trying to change parameters for growth. Its all about strain selection indoors or out. Outdoor selection will be looking for different pheno's and traits that better suit an outdoor environment, the same goes for indoors or greenhouse growing. You would not knowingly put a 12 foot Sativa in a greenhouse environment, but that doesn't mean you have to walk away from that strain either. Research and Development is an important factor these days, its too bad not ALL of us understand it. Obviously you need to go back now...my new age texts are from the 90's...Not that new, actually most of what I have PROVEN is STANDARD PRACTISE in ANY real greenhouse application TODAY. I have shown more than enough proof that you just dismiss when its not what you want to here. You...alexander supertramp, and the staring attraction...uncle ben...DO...I REPEAT...DO know this stuff and for reasons unknown to me you are here just trying to mis-guide people and demean. I will not play you games anymore, *not only have I proved my point but have shown the people just what kind of growers(and I use that term loosely)you actually are. *Like I said to UB, I don't hold grudges so really its O.K. to ask for advise.


You have a deep seated low self esteem problem.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 31, 2013)

Rocketman64 said:


> Believe it or not, we still do make our rocket motors. We're using a much more advanced type of solid rocket fuel than black powder, zinc/sulphur and the like. We use the same basic formulations as the solid rocket boosters on the space shuttle. It's an ammonium perchlorate/aluminum powder mixture held together with a rubber-like binder. It mixes a bit like playdoh or can be made pourable more like pancake batter. When it cures it has the consistency of a super ball- spongy but firm. We fill phenolic liners using mandrels for a specific size core through the center. This propagates flame through the entire length of the motor casing resulting in instant pressure in the motor case. Nozzles are graphite, casings are aluminum and closures are typically held together with snap rings and O-rings. Of course there are hundreds of formulas for mixing different motors depending on burn time desired or color of flame desired. Rocketry has come a long way since we were messing with Estes rockets on the school playground. Just do a search for high power rocketry in Google if you want to see some pretty cool stuff. I like growing almost as much as launching big, obnoxious rockets it just takes a little longer to get the desired results. Funny, it seems there's still as much research and work to get a decent plant yield as there is to launch a somewhat complicated rocket, go figure. For me, the journey is as rewarding as the final result, kinda why I like these types of hobbies.


Very cool. Wish I could send you a PM. My community has a high school rocketry program that is followed by ISD's across the nation and sets the class for future young aeronautical engineers. And the high school built rockets fired are on a ranch only miles from my farm.

UB


----------



## Mad Hamish (Aug 4, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Sure you do. And I'm a rocket engineer getting ready to fly some cannabis to Mars.


 New sig material, thank you Sir


----------



## Mad Hamish (Aug 4, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> removed


 Why is it such a problem for you what the guy does and where he learns from dude? Seriously, got bud envy much? To each his own. Isn't it really insecure feeling threatened by what another person holds in hos own head, seriously now?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 4, 2013)

RockyMtnMan said:


> My post with a reference to a banned book and these smoking suggestions contained therein has been deleted.
> I think the mods may have done me a favor and I will speak of it no more.


It's a shame it's come to this, but yeah, I'd be careful of what I say on the internet and social networks like Facebook. Like I said, the only secure form of communication is using PGP. In the old days when there was only Usenet we used PGP (or a form of it) and chain-linked thru many encrypted servers such that you didn't know where it originated or if you were not last in line didn't know where it (the message) was headed. TOR's a damn good program.

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 4, 2013)

Sir.TrollsTooMuch said:


> removed.


Blah blah blah blah blah......


----------



## lilroach (Aug 4, 2013)

I know that there's many ways to skin a cat, and I know that there's supposed "new and improved" ways of growing weed.

I personally find all the so-called better ways of growing from these "new and improved" advances only seem to improve the profits of those selling these advances. I'm following someone's large outdoor grow, and the only technology he's using is the sun, soil, some nutrients, and water. The plants are becoming massive, healthy, and promises to yield tonnage. He doesn't scrog, require high-priced high-hyped additives, fancy watering systems, super-cropping, or any of the "advances" in growing. He's growing it the old fashion way.

He gets great results......because of his years of experience...not technological gimmicks.

I asked my plants if they know how much money I've spent on them, and they are clueless. My goal is to end up with four ounces per plant, and for me, I feel this goal is more achievable following those that have done so on a regular basis for decades.

To the poster that questions my ability to do research......I have thank you.....and that research has led me to back to the basics. I've tried the new stuff, and it isn't for me.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Aug 4, 2013)

lilroach said:


> I asked my plants if they know how much money I've spent on them, and they are clueless.


 PRICELESS bro  And I agree with you, nothing beats an oldschool outdoor grow. I used to trim bud for a large producer and the size of some of these things was unreal. There were plants tipping the scales at over 2 dry kilograms OFTEN, shit you not. 

And that was good seed, good water, soil prepared the way grandpa did it and that was IT. 

I like messing about and trying stuff, but I haven't really found anything that can make a big outdoor plant go BIGGER. Lots of tweaks for indoors sure, but outside nothing yields like something just left the hell alone, providing it's got enough room.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 5, 2013)

Mad Hamish said:


> PRICELESS bro  And I agree with you, nothing beats an oldschool outdoor grow. I used to trim bud for a large producer and the size of some of these things was unreal. There were plants tipping the scales at over 2 dry kilograms OFTEN, shit you not.
> 
> And that was good seed, good water, soil prepared the way grandpa did it and that was IT.


I believe it. I got an email from Christophe, a breeder and source of Zamal, La Reunion island, and he said they grew some Zamal and hung a swing on it!


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 14, 2013)

It seems like the common conception is that light only has a major impact on plant parts/colas/branches that the light is directly or most intensely shining on. I always thought that leaves just soaked up the light to create food and then that would go to the benefit of the entire plant in general. Can anyone explain the relationship between light leaves and production? Is direct light really what causes bud growth or could it just be a hormonal response from the tallest/main growing tips that give the illusion that the buds closest to the light (often the buds on the main growing tips) have better growth?


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 14, 2013)

And while on the subject, what sativa strains available online would you recommend?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 14, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> And while on the subject, what sativa strains available online would you recommend?


Considering I haven't ordered seeds in a blue moon and have no intent to start now, can't make a fair recommendation. Perhaps someone else will chime in.

UB


----------



## Impman (Aug 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben rules! i love growing now cuz of UB. read UB


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 14, 2013)

And by the way UB I read you post on diffused light and I took it all in. But direct light and diffused isn't the topic at hand. What I'm trying to ask is whether a leaf on branch "A" photosynthesizes for only branch "A" or does it photosynthesize for the plant as a whole?


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Considering I haven't ordered seeds in a blue moon and have no intent to start now, can't make a fair recommendation. Perhaps someone else will chime in.
> 
> UB


Well what have been your fav strains in general whether from a seed bank or not? We all know you're an awesome botanist/horticulturalist. I'm kinda curious about uncle ben the SMOKER


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 14, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> And by the way UB I read you post on diffused light and I took it all in. But direct light and diffused isn't the topic at hand. What I'm trying to ask is whether a leaf on branch "A" photosynthesizes for only branch "A" or does it photosynthesize for the plant as a whole?


It feeds the entire plant.


----------



## Sativied (Aug 14, 2013)

Rocketman64 said:


> View attachment 2748570View attachment 2748572View attachment 2748573View attachment 2748574View attachment 2748575View attachment 2748580View attachment 2748585


Leaf porn!


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 14, 2013)

Lol thanks for the reply UB. I can tell you're like (sigh) "f****** nooooooob". I swear I'm doin my homework but certain questions burn at the back of my mind, as elementary to you as they may seem and an instant reply from a vet like you hits the spot. Gratitude brother. That lets me know I don't have to rotate my plants since I have a vertical light (hand me down with no r eflector) to make sure each individual bud site gets even light.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 15, 2013)

Also UB first and foremost I'd like you to know that you are the person I've learned most from. My first ever bit of cannabis lit I read was your topping tutorial. I have mad respect for you. Sometimes though I'm almost a little scared to ask you things for fear of being condescended. I think I can speak for most community members when I say that no matter how lame our questions may be we ask because we honor and respect your experience and knowledge. Botany has been around for ages and yes marijuana is just another plant. But most of us would have never grown anything but thistles and dandelions had it not been for mary jane. So when we jump in head first we walk into a world where the simple is transformed into rocket science and finding the answers is just as simple as finding truth in politics. We need and want your guidance. In the end you've already done monumental things as far as teaching and I wouldn't be surprised if you life forever in marijuana growing culture. I just hope you can keep the love for it and remember maybe what it was like for you the first time you grew a living thing from seed to maturity and remember that we are all going through that same learning curve. Thanks again for all you've done. + rep for what its worth :/


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 15, 2013)

Ok never mind... apparently I have to "spread rep" before I can give you more. Super lame


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 15, 2013)

Dboi... I've grown some pretty good sativa leaning hybrids. There are many to choose from.

Short answer: Sugar Punch - Sannies Shop

Long answer: The question to ask is... how many weeks of flowering are you willing to take on? There are options at any length.

I like to use seedfinder to check lineage and see what I am getting. You can just google "plant name seedfinder" example: Northern Lights seedfiner. click the link that is seedfinder.xxx.ccc it will break down the lineage for you. 

There are lots of bad choices in the seed biz... waaay more than good choices. I suggest coming up with your choice and posting here. Someone will let you know if it is a bad choice. Some seedbanks are scams or known to be unreliable... some breeders are known to put out junk or problematic genetics. Many breeders are coming out with little rep and the verdict is still out on them. I like to stick with the proven breeders, but, avoid the old breeders who with an established name have little to prove.

Here are a few to look into...

7-9 wks - most any of the C99 plants. Apollo 11. Others, I forget. If you have the coin try out Dr Greenthumbs c99. His seeds are a little more expensive but I've been very impressed with the results from Dr GT. c99 is speedy. Speedy effects and speedy flowering. The fastest flowering sativa leaning plant you will find. Easy to grow. 

10-11 wks - Sugar Punch, Killing Fields - From SanniesShop. Great stuff... really great. I like Sannie too.. You can get on his forum (google it) and see people growing his seeds. There are a handful of active VERY good growers over there with REALLY nice cameras. Great people too. Sannie seems like very good people. 

12-13 wks - Many Haze varieties... with killing fields and sugar punch, you'll prbly find one plant in the pack that takes 12-13 wks... Having haze in the name doesn't make it what I would call "haze". You can get hazes that flower in as little as 10 wks and beyond 14. 

14+ - Jamaican Lambsbread - Never grown it but have smoked Columbian Gold and Lambsbread. This is a commitment, and a difficult one at that.. If you have not had 4-5 grows under your belt I would suggest putting a hold on this one. With 4-5 grows under your belt, be prepared for a challenge. And, lots of vertical space.

I would recommend Sannies Shop. I've grown the killing fields and love it. I've heard the Sugar punch is even better.. I believe it is basically Killing fields x Super silver haze. Those are two of my favorite sativa leaning plants.. I could only imagine (and have heard) the smoke is fantastic. If you made me give you one choice... I would say *Sugar Punch*. Super silver haze is fucking GREAT... but it's dependent on who you get it from. I got mine from Beanhoarder... his packs can be hit or miss. I searched through many plants to find my 2 keepers. With Sugar Punch... you can trust Sannies work... you get killing fields, which is fucking GREAT.. and, you get a good Super Silver Haze which is fucking great... I would go with that.

A common sativa that new folks seem to be pulled towards is Kali Mist. I would not recommend this pack. A partner grew it out and was quite disappointed. Also, I have seen many bad reviews... apparently, Kali Mist was reworked some years ago to make for shorter flower times and easier growth. The result was a plant that has little sativa-like effects.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 15, 2013)

And... to UB... Cheers. 
It's great to have such an experienced botanist around as an active member. I keep a tab on your posts. Learning, picking up little bits all the time. Stick around, please. Your contribution to RIU is great. 

You also got me in to the idea of growing grapes... I appreciate that.

Taking a look, and getting deeper and deeper into the world of botany... growing grapes kinda seems like the real deal as far as production-like gardening goes. I'm really looking forward to getting that going. I won't go bothering you with every little question I might have... but... I might want to pick your brain a time or two... get your thoughts on questions with answers that are not easily found around the web.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 15, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> Sometimes though I'm almost a little scared to ask you things for fear of being condescended.


Whaaaa? UB? No...


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's a shame it's come to this, but yeah, I'd be careful of what I say on the internet and social networks like Facebook. Like I said, the only secure form of communication is using PGP. In the old days when there was only Usenet we used PGP (or a form of it) and chain-linked thru many encrypted servers such that you didn't know where it originated or if you were not last in line didn't know where it (the message) was headed. TOR's a damn good program.
> 
> UB


I hear TOR mail is gone. Along with a good chunk of the dark web..
Apparently a hosting service went down.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 15, 2013)

Thanks kitehigh! I appreciate you taking the time reply. Super helpful!


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 15, 2013)

Thanks to UB I've caught myself riding in the car looking at trees and bushes and thinking "hmmm those could use some nitrogen"....


----------



## Darth Budder (Aug 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's a shame it's come to this, but yeah, I'd be careful of what I say on the internet and social networks like Facebook. Like I said, the only secure form of communication is using PGP. In the old days when there was only Usenet we used PGP (or a form of it) and chain-linked thru many encrypted servers such that you didn't know where it originated or if you were not last in line didn't know where it (the message) was headed. TOR's a damn good program.
> 
> UB


USENET!? Were you postin shit on GOPHER boards too?! UB just got more respect! lol.


----------



## Sativied (Aug 15, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Short answer: Sugar Punch - Sannies Shop


Based on "hearing" and "imagining".

Frankly I find that quite silly to recommend a sativa you've never grown or taste. But at the same time it shows how reading 'can' make up for a lack of experience in some area.

That bitched, I agree  and that's coming from someone who grown and smoked it for over 4 months.

Unfortunately it's sold out (should be available again any time now, after nearly 10 months and some failed attempts to 'recreate' the SP). It needs more like 9-10wks, than 10-11 wks (subtract a week from them amber growers).

After a month or two curing it became the best tasting mj I smoked in over 2 decades. Seriously, that's as unbiased as I can put it. Sannie is one of the few dutch growers who has a clue of what he's doing - hence a breeder and owner of the only real dutch grow forum as well. 



> A common sativa that new folks seem to be pulled towards is Kali Mist. I would not recommend this pack. A partner grew it out and was quite disappointed. Also, I have seen many bad reviews... apparently, Kali Mist was reworked some years ago to make for shorter flower times and easier growth. The result was a plant that has little sativa-like effects.


Oh you recommend against certain sativas too while you haven't grown it? Weird man... ah well. A local shop here sells Cali Miss from a grower who can't spell... it's one of the best on the menu in my city atm. Really decent smoke and high effect.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 15, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> Also UB first and foremost I'd like you to know that you are the person I've learned most from. My first ever bit of cannabis lit I read was your topping tutorial. I have mad respect for you. Sometimes though I'm almost a little scared to ask you things for fear of being condescended. I think I can speak for most community members when I say that no matter how lame our questions may be we ask because we honor and respect your experience and knowledge. Botany has been around for ages and yes marijuana is just another plant. But most of us would have never grown anything but thistles and dandelions had it not been for mary jane. So when we jump in head first we walk into a world where the simple is transformed into rocket science and finding the answers is just as simple as finding truth in politics. We need and want your guidance. In the end you've already done monumental things as far as teaching and I wouldn't be surprised if you life forever in marijuana growing culture. I just hope you can keep the love for it and remember maybe what it was like for you the first time you grew a living thing from seed to maturity and remember that we are all going through that same learning curve. Thanks again for all you've done. + rep for what its worth :/


Gotta crawl before you walk...we've all been there. Best teacher is experience. Thanks for the kind words......

Tio


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 15, 2013)

Sativied said:


> Based on "hearing" and "imagining".
> 
> Frankly I find that quite silly to recommend a sativa you've never grown or taste. But at the same time it shows how reading 'can' make up for a lack of experience in some area.


Frankly, I find seals in clown clothing silly...

Here's my thinking...
-I have grown (and still do) Killing Fields... 50% of this cross i suggested. I still grow two of the plants quite a bit. I'm taking cuts of my favorite of the two today.
-I have grown 4 different SSH plants quite a bit, 2 of which I have been growing for over 5 years and am still growing to this day
-I am a member at opengrow and I have watched some fine plants come from the pack I suggested.
-I trust Sannies work. 

Put it all together... now is that silly?

As to Kali Mist... As I said, my partner has grown out some recent Kali Mist seeds. We like to share notes, genetics, garden space. 

Lastly... Fuck you, buddy.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'll be happy to share what to look for while harvesting so you're getting only the best at the best point in time. More Tio Bendejo tweaks.
> 
> View attachment 2777532
> 
> UB


I will be taking you up on that.. Those look beautiful.. nice.


----------



## Sativied (Aug 15, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Put it all together... now is that silly?
> 
> As to Kali Mist... As I said, my partner has grown out some recent Kali Mist seeds. We like to share notes, genetics, garden space.
> 
> Lastly... Fuck you, buddy.


No need to get butthurt.  Though you quoted it, it seems like you missed "But at the same time it shows how reading 'can' make up for a lack of experience in some area." and the I agree part? 

I trust Sannie's work too, currently more than any other breeder frankly. That's the reason I have at least 1 Sannie plant in my closet (Kolossus currently). Rock-solid stuff. The fact Sannie hasn't released SP again yet despite the large demand (in local forums it was popular too) only adds to that. Not the kind of breeder who just sees $$$ but one who wants to deliver quality and not rush for commercial reasons. Sounds like advertising... well, let me add to that that his Dutch forum contains so much nonsense it would make UB explode like a supernova  (Sannie's unfortunately not that active himself there).

I can't recommend KF though, simply cause I haven't grown or smoked it. I've seen it many times on the dutch version of Sannie's forum which is much older than opengrow.com, read great stuff about it, but those forums ARE extremely biased when it comes to Sannie's stuff and Sannie's way. Kind of like with UB and Subcool here... So, I gave my objective opinion based on my own actual growing and smoking experience of SP (on organics even) to 'add' to your clearly well-informed imagination  Bettah? 



HeartlandHank said:


> Put it all together... now is that silly?


Nah... "silly" was just me being nice


----------



## jumpy0ne (Aug 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's a shame it's come to this, but yeah, I'd be careful of what I say on the internet and social networks like Facebook. Like I said, the only secure form of communication is using PGP. In the old days when there was only Usenet we used PGP (or a form of it) and chain-linked thru many encrypted servers such that you didn't know where it originated or if you were not last in line didn't know where it (the message) was headed. TOR's a damn good program.
> 
> UB


More waffles. This time it is Tor waffles. Tor is not secure. There are very few exit nodes and all are compromised, govt. super computers can crack the encryption. Using Tor and pretending you're a galactic pirate fighting the Illuminati is cool. Kinda like using RIU and pretending to be the originator of all good growing knowledge.......

No doubt UB will say I have low self esteem. Come on Uncle. Metaphorically sit me on your knee and condescend to me without addressing the point........ Maybe a few sycophants will come to tease me........


----------



## Sativied (Aug 15, 2013)

jumpy0ne said:


> and condescend to me without addressing the point....


Well you're asking for it, disagreeing with UB... be careful, if you keep this up you better start over or he will "destroy your online persona"  It's truly unfortunate UB can only talk 'to' growers and not 'with' growers - he might actually learn a thing or two himself. 

Subbed!


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 15, 2013)

Sativied said:


> Well you're asking for it, disagreeing with UB... be careful, if you keep this up you better start over or he will "destroy your online persona"  It's truly unfortunate UB can only talk 'to' growers and not 'with' growers - he might actually learn a thing or two himself.
> 
> Subbed!


No need for anyone to "destroy your online persona" as you do a fine job on your own......


----------



## Sativied (Aug 15, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> No need for anyone to "destroy your online persona" as you do a fine job on your own......


 So dramatic. It wasn't even directed towards me fool. I don't grow epeen. I don't care about my and your and UB's ego. It's just funny to see one side _blindly_ follow UB and another camp hating on him. You can adore UB all you want, I have little respect for people who slander and intimidate opponents in a debate about mj and then demands discussions to be closed... It's like spread the hate against anything UB disagrees with rather than spreading the love of growing mj. 

Apply some common sense to UB's posts and realize they are from a certain perspective (oldskool outdoor grower) and they truly are extremely helpful. At the same time I get entertained by the suck ups (like you) and the haters. Flame on.


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 15, 2013)

Sativied said:


> So dramatic. It wasn't even directed towards me fool. I don't grow epeen. I don't care about my and your and UB's ego. It's just funny to see one side _blindly_ follow UB and another camp hating on him. You can adore UB all you want, I have little respect for people who slander and intimidate opponents in a debate about mj and then demands discussions to be closed... It's like spread the hate against anything UB disagrees with rather than spreading the love of growing mj.
> 
> Apply some common sense to UB's posts and realize they are from a certain perspective (oldskool outdoor grower) and they truly are extremely helpful. At the same time I get entertained by the suck ups (like you) and the haters. Flame on.


Thanks for helping me make my point.


----------



## Sativied (Aug 15, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Thanks for helping me make my point.


And thank you for underlining mine (you only see what you want to see..., blind follower...)


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 15, 2013)

jumpy0ne said:


> ....... Yet here you are,- strutting around, insulting and deriding people calling into question their mental well being by stating they have a lack of esteem. All the while you are showing your own hand to people who know how to read another man.


Son, I'm not the one that beat you up as a kid. Don't bring your personal baggage into my threads.

Having said that, your garden sucks wind more than you do.







https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/698748-white-jones-chronic.html

Perhaps it's time to take down that Cub Scout tent of yours and do some SMores over a camp fire. At least you'll have a chance to get something sweet out of it. 

Straight out of the Girl Scout handbook just for you - http://whatscookingamerica.net/Cookie/Smores/Smores.htm

UB


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 16, 2013)

Sativied said:


> No need to get butthurt.  Though you quoted it, it seems like you missed "But at the same time it shows how reading 'can' make up for a lack of experience in some area." and the I agree part?
> 
> I trust Sannie's work too, currently more than any other breeder frankly. That's the reason I have at least 1 Sannie plant in my closet (Kolossus currently). Rock-solid stuff. The fact Sannie hasn't released SP again yet despite the large demand (in local forums it was popular too) only adds to that. Not the kind of breeder who just sees $$$ but one who wants to deliver quality and not rush for commercial reasons. Sounds like advertising... well, let me add to that that his Dutch forum contains so much nonsense it would make UB explode like a supernova  (Sannie's unfortunately not that active himself there).
> 
> ...


Ahhh, it's been a little bit since I've looked at Sannies Seeds... I meant to say *Silverfields.
*I had thought that Sugar Punch was SSH x KF... SP is actually SSH x The One.

My mistake.

That was you being nice, Sativied? Wow...

I would like to see your impression of a pompous, passive aggressive little twerp then..


----------



## jumpy0ne (Aug 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Son, I'm not the one that beat you up as a kid. Don't bring your personal baggage into my threads.
> 
> Having said that, your garden sucks wind more than you do.
> 
> ...


Is that all you got Uncle? This is going to be fun......

First lets deal with the pic....... Well done on choosing a pic that demonstrates how hydro beats soil. That plant is about 15 days old! Can we see a 15 day old 1990s weed in some mud to impress everyone Uncle lulz? In terms of fetching photos the OBVIOUS question would be- Where do you get all your sick leaf shots from? So basically after 15 days I have a plant that's ready to flower and by your methods you'd still have a seedling........ Back to the massive pots, miracle grow and the big light in the sky lulz

So you decided to skip dealing with the point and go straight to the condescension....... Play to your strengths I guess 

I won't be so graceful in allowing you a free pass on the POINT. My point was, aside from you being a confirmed liar........ You have Esteem issues. You prance around saying "you have low self esteem" when anybody criticizes you but your love of the sycophancy tells anyone who did Psy 101 that the man in the room with the esteem issues is YOU. Glaringly, blatantly, obviously Uncle Ben who has low esteem.

Now like a complete fool you have slipped another hand..... Just like the low self esteem- Nobody mentioned child abuse...... Well YOU did, just now...... So lets have a little look. I'll come straight out and ask you! Were you abused as a child? I mean we know, from the self esteem comments + your love of sycophancy, that you project your own issues onto your detractors....... It would only be logical to assume........ It comes to mind as I type this that you are an older man who likes young people to whom he is not related to call him Uncle........ That's a stereotype well depicted in the media! In addition you also enjoy having those same young people "suck you off" as some might call it........ I think the Uncle had better be more careful what insults he throws....... They seem to reveal scars on his own psyche........ Nobody asked for child abuse UB...... Yet a middle aged, proven liar, who likes strangers to call him Uncle brings it up..... Hmmmmmm. RIU? This man's IP address may be of interest to law enforcement for reasons completely unrelated to marijuana growing. You did mention you like Tor....... Old men who use Tor........ Cheese Pizza UB? GULP!!!! I'm not joking here peeps!!!!! People will say I'm jumping to conclusions...... I have my grave doubts about the kindly nature of the Ol' Uncle........ Nobody mentions this abuse stuff..... he mentions it to several people. He calls them abused children...... A most very odd and sick insult to choose.... I mean dickhead, cunt, wanker, asshole.... there are many nasty things an adult may choose to call another yet UB likes to call people abused children! Think about this people.........

I won't be caught in public discussing with a man I know to now have esteem issues and a propensity to project his own mental scars upon his challengers. Keep the pedo weed UB.

".....My threads". Like you have ownership. You know if you got hit by a bus RIU would just continue along their way..... accepting ad revenue and doing business just like normal........? Don't over play your own importance. And, while you're at it, try not to let everyone know what your own personal issues are! You'd have been much better addressing my points instead of outing yourself through your own sick choice of insults.......


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 16, 2013)

jumpy0ne said:


> Is that all you got Uncle? This is going to be fun......
> 
> First lets deal with the pic....... Well done on choosing a pic that demonstrates how hydro beats soil. That plant is about 15 days old! Can we see a 15 day old 1990s weed in some mud to impress everyone Uncle lulz? In terms of fetching photos the OBVIOUS question would be- Where do you get all your sick leaf shots from? So basically after 15 days I have a plant that's ready to flower and by your methods you'd still have a seedling........ Back to the massive pots, miracle grow and the big light in the sky lulz
> 
> ...


Wow, you really are consumed.....

...next ~


----------



## jumpy0ne (Aug 16, 2013)

C'mon Uncle Saville! It can't take you that fucking long to type those inanely short replies.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 16, 2013)

You UB trolls are pathetic... I am OOOOOOUUUUUTTT of this one.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 16, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> You UB trolls are fucking pathetic.. I am OOOOOOUUUUUTTT of this one.


Please report this puke to the mods. He's totally out of control.

Tio


----------



## jumpy0ne (Aug 16, 2013)

jumpy0ne said:


> C'mon Uncle Saville! It can't take you that fucking long to type those inanely short replies.





Uncle Ben said:


> Please report this puke to the mods. He's totally out of control.
> 
> Tio


Apparently it does Jumpy. Apparently it does........


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 16, 2013)

jumpy0ne said:


> you are calling people victims of child abuse. Once you do that people can call you what they want in return. People who think that child abuse is worthy of sneer are scum.
> 
> Uncle saville and his army of 4 inch radicals........ Call for them to report me. I am going to take a very keen interest in this aging tor user who thinks child abuse is funny.


get help soon!!!


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Please report this puke to the mods. He's totally out of control.
> 
> Tio


You can't ever get rid of that avatar, you know. Your trolls love it.


----------



## jumpy0ne (Aug 16, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> get help soon!!!


Chuck. If only you knew my friend. I need no help. I mean. If I called you an abused child out of all the possible insults....... wouldn't you wonder why a "man" would choose such a deeply sickening one....? If not- I'm glad I'm not one of your kids.


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 16, 2013)

jumpy0ne said:


> Chuck. If only you knew my friend. I need no help. I mean. If I called you an abused child out of all the possible insults....... wouldn't you wonder why a "man" would choose such a deeply sickening one....? If not- I'm glad I'm not one of your kids.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 16, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> You can't ever get rid of that avatar, you know. Your trolls love it.


<--

hows dis?

.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> <--
> 
> hows dis?
> 
> .


they'll still be talking about that pic...


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> <--
> 
> hows dis?
> 
> .


What is that?


----------



## Sativied (Aug 16, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Ahhh, it's been a little bit since I've looked at Sannies Seeds... I meant to say *Silverfields.
> *I had thought that Sugar Punch was SSH x KF... SP is actually SSH x The One.
> 
> My mistake.


That's ok, if you look into your glass ball ending up recommending strains on hearsay and imagination such a mistake is easily made. I retract my statement about you proving that your reading and imagination made up for a lack of experience.



HeartlandHank said:


> That was you being nice, Sativied? Wow...
> 
> I would like to see your impression of a pompous, passive aggressive little twerp then..


Now, _that_'s a proper insult.  If only everyone here could get along like that. 


Silverfields I've rarely seen, 1, maybe 2 journals, I haven't grown it, haven't smoked it, so I can't recommend that one. 

SP has an, imo, good variety of phenos, and ime and from what I've seen it's more often the SSH pheno. Sometimes purple, sometimes pink:
View attachment 2778787So much 'sugar' every time you crumble some of it you get a free finger-hash bonus. Check out Bigby's sugar punch journal here at RIU, he does a very nice job of both growing and describing the SP (and several other Sannie strains).

Some leftovers while trimming:
View attachment 2778808


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 16, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> they'll still be talking about that pic...


Most likely calling me politically incorrect and insensitive to other's feelings.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 16, 2013)

Sativied said:


> That's ok, if you look into your glass ball ending up recommending strains on hearsay and imagination such a mistake is easily made. I retract my statement about you proving that your reading and imagination made up for a lack of experience.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, _that_'s a proper insult.  If only everyone here could get along like that.


Hey, Sativied... I don't know, you don't seem that bright.. Let me try to explain this to you.

When you have grown a plant as much as stocking 5 mothers from it's pack of seeds and then continue to grow 2 plants for at least a couple years... that is experience with the plant..

I have grown Sannies Killing Fields. I have also grown Super Silver Haze... Super Silver Haze is not some esdtremely vague variety of MJ. There is a genetic pool, which I have experience with. From 9 weeks to 14 weeks. I've played with a bit of the pool.

So, since I have had experience with both plants of the cross, and I trust Sannies work, it is not just using my imagination (or reading knowledge) to recommend the plant. Do you understand? I can try to explain it a little better... I'm typing this quickly.

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/588955-6-sannies-killing-fields-f3.html
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/590609-ssh1-x-ssh2-beanho-heartlandhank-3.html

While the colored plants in the KF pack are nice... like everyone says... the green plants are maybe a step up... my fave was this 11 wk green plant. KF 5 in my journal

I kept this 9 wk SSh as my fave. But, I couldn't let go of my 14 wk super hazy plant either. 24in+ tall colas... haaaaazy.

View attachment 2779278View attachment 2779279


Love the super hazy (14 wk) SSH plant
View attachment 2779281View attachment 2779282


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 16, 2013)

Sativied said:


> Silverfields I've rarely seen, 1, maybe 2 journals, I haven't grown it, haven't smoked it, so I can't recommend that one.


Yep, those flower do look very SSH. Just like the ones I've been growing.. (except the pink)
The pink looks very beautiful.. Nice deep pink, coming from the Killing Fields.. I didn't save that killing fields plant from my pack... but I saw it during my selection process. Purty..


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 16, 2013)

Sativied said:


> So much 'sugar' every time you crumble some of it you get a free finger-hash bonus.


Yep, not a bad recommendation to hand out, huh?

I get what your doing here guy. You want to point out the foolish forum kid who reads and reads and talks like he knows it all, because he read it on a forum.

Sorry dude, that's not me. I speak from experience, always have.

When you set out to go and try to establish your cred on RIU by picking out a random post and blah blah blahing... you should research your target first.

BTW, nice tinfoil skirts on your plants .. is that a TPB salute or are you serious?


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 16, 2013)

No dude... seriously.. I laughed hard at your tin foil skirts.... It reminds me of jokes from the TPB. I didn't think anyone actually did that. It makes the TPB jokes so much funnier. I saved your tinfoil skirt photos to share with some other folks for a good laugh

You mind if I share the link to your grow journal with a few folks to take a look at your skirts?

Have fun dude. You got cred. Real RIU sativa growing cred.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 16, 2013)

It's so fitting that the tribute to UB thread fills up with all the little UB trolls picking fights trying to sound like big bad growers with their new school knowledge.. and tinfoil skirts.. 

Well done, OP. Kudos.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 16, 2013)

Sativied said:


> You edited some more butthurt responses in. For fuck sakes dude, all I said that normally I would find it silly to recommend a strain you haven't smoked or grown, but you actually made well-informed lucky guesstimate. I guess even butthurt idiots say smart stuff sometimes.
> 
> B-U-T-T-H-U-R-T


Butthurt this butthurt that....all sounds a little anal to me.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 16, 2013)

Sativied said:


> "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser" - Socrates


Come back, oh wise one.. Let's chat sativa.. What other sativa plants have you grown out?


----------



## Impman (Aug 17, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> You UB trolls are pathetic... I am OOOOOOUUUUUTTT of this one.


What happened, cup cake? Your profile pic is a fucking Meth bong.... for sure... I thought it might be for dabs but no, thats a meth bong


----------



## Impman (Aug 17, 2013)

The only thing UB ever did was show how all you fools waste your money on bullllllshiiiiiiiiiit! Shelling out that cash for snake oil because some 20 year old hippy kid at the grow shop sold you 55$ worth of Calcium (that comes out of your garden hose, anyways) .

you poor dumb bastards can't accept that there is a cheaper, smarter way to grow weed that does not require 10-55-40 bloom booster, PHing, or any other dingle fuck things sold to you at lame grow shops. 

not washing your hair for 6 months does not make you a hippy BTW


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 17, 2013)

Impman said:


> The only thing UB ever did was show how all you fools waste your money on bullllllshiiiiiiiiiit! Shelling out that cash for snake oil because some 20 year old hippy kid at the grow shop sold you 55$ worth of Calcium (that comes out of your garden hose, anyways) .
> 
> you poor dumb bastards can't accept that there is a cheaper, smarter way to grow weed that does not require 10-55-40 bloom booster, PHing, or any other dingle fuck things sold to you at lame grow shops.
> 
> not washing your hair for 6 months does not make you a hippy BTW


Go back to the psychedelic forums. 



Impman said:


> after all that shit I talked and I get hermied like a mother fuck. That sucks. i had to pull my plants early. I started noticing dicks all over the place. So I said to hell with it and chopped it all down. The buds are a little premature and there are lots of seed sacks that are undeveloped. It looks like I got a lot of hash and personal smoke and another failed grow under the belt.
> ...
> So, several lessons learned this grow 1. Get better genetics from a more tested stain 2. Don't grow in the summer without the right equipment. 3. Make sure power lights are blackened. 4. Don't talk a bunch of shit about how good your grow is going on RIU or the weed gods will bitch slap you.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 17, 2013)

Impman said:


> Your profile pic is a fucking Meth bong.... for sure... I thought it might be for dabs but no, thats a meth bong


What's your beef with me, gimpman? Just throwing punches at anyone in fingers reach? One of Sativied's butt buddies?

Cupcake, huh. That one sure is getting thrown around a lot lately.

A meth bong?

It's just a bubbler with two glass on glass female ends.
If you wanted to be able to smoke freebase(?) with it, you would need an oil burner type part that comes out of the stem at a 90 degree angle and hangs over the bubbler/body.

View attachment 2779854View attachment 2779855

Kinda like this part that lets you connect this piece to a vaporizer... but... you would need the piece to come out away from the body.

Never smoked meth, personally. But it's not rocket science. I have smoked hash over it with hot knives... Just remove the bowl and use two hot knives over the bubbler. 

View attachment 2779860

It's a little bit of an usual piece.. Take a closer look. The guy who made it for me made it as a "daisy chain(able) bubbler". With the piece in the third pic it can be connected to a vaporizer. Or, with that piece on both ends, it can be used as a daisy chain, inline. With 2 glass on glass female ends you can make it into just about anything... With a mouth piece and a bowl, it's just a bubbler.

It's a pretty piece. It ran me $250, plus $50 tip.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 17, 2013)

Truisms of the day:

>> "I get what your doing here guy. You want to point out the foolish forum kid who reads and reads and talks like he knows it all, because he read it on a forum."

>> "It's so fitting that the tribute to UB thread fills up with all the little UB trolls picking fights trying to sound like big bad growers with their new school knowledge.. and tinfoil skirts.. "

>> "The only thing UB ever did was show how all you fools waste your money on bullllllshiiiiiiiiiit! Shelling out that cash for snake oil because some 20 year old hippy kid at the grow shop sold you 55$ worth of Calcium (that comes out of your garden hose, anyways) ."

>> "you poor dumb bastards can't accept that there is a cheaper, smarter way to grow weed that does not require 10-55-40 bloom booster, PHing, or any other dingle fuck things sold to you at lame grow shops."

Play nice kiddies.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 17, 2013)

Impman said:


> not washing your hair for 6 months does not make you a hippy BTW


Makes you a dirty hippy? 

Facial profiling, gotta luv it.


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 17, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> *What's your beef with me, gimpman?* Just throwing punches at anyone in fingers reach? One of Sativied's butt buddies?
> 
> Cupcake, huh. That one sure is getting thrown around a lot lately.
> 
> ...


 I think Gimpman has reading comprehension problems, go look at the quote he posted. He thinks you were dissing UB. He just didn't understand what you said.LMFAO


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 17, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> I think Gimpman has reading comprehension problems, go look at the quote he posted. He thinks you were dissing UB. He just didn't understand what you said.LMFAO


A lot of folks post while stoned. They're gonna do an "aw shit" once in a while.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 17, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> I think Gimpman has reading comprehension problems, go look at the quote he posted. He thinks you were dissing UB. He just didn't understand what you said.LMFAO


Haha. I think you're right. That's funny.

I don't know, could be something else.. I've been pissing some people off lately. Randomly... I guess I've been a dick. 


<<Gimpman>> You're lucky he even posts for you bastards... LEAVE UB ALONE!!!!

!View attachment 2780024


----------



## propertyoftheUS (Aug 17, 2013)

*Truth About Removing Fan Leaves * [h=6][/h]

by riddleme 

I am probably one of the most outspoken members here when it comes to removing leaves from our plants, I want to share this little ditty from 


*https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana Botany*
An Advanced Study: The Propagation and Breeding of Distinctive Cannabis
by Robert Connell Clarke




Leafing is one of the most misunderstood techniques of drug Cannabis cultivation. In the mind of the cultivator, several reasons exist for removing leaves. Many feel that large shade leaves draw energy from the flowering plant, and therefore the flowering clusters will be smaller. It is felt that by removing the leaves, surplus energy will be available, and large floral clusters will be formed. Also, some feel that inhibitors of flowering, synthesized in the leaves during the long noninductive days of summer, may be stored in the older leaves that were formed during the noninductive photoperiod. Possibly, if these inhibitor-laden leaves are removed, the plant will proceed to flower, and maturation will be accelerated. Large leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small atrophied floral clusters may begin to develop if they receive more light.

In actuality, few if any of the theories behind leafing give any indication of validity. Indeed, leafing possibly serves to defeat its original purpose. Large leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of Cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth sub stances. They also create shade, but at the same time they are collecting valuable solar energy and producing foods that will be used during the floral development of the plant. Premature removal of leaves may cause stunting, because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced. As these leaves age and lose their ability to carry on photo synthesis they turn chlorotie (yellow) and fall to the ground. In humid areas care is taken to remove the yellow or brown leaves, because they might invite attack by fungus. During chlorosis the plant breaks down substances, such as chlorophylls, and translocates the molecular components to a new growing part of the plant, such as the flowers. Most Cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage, and this trend continues until senescence. It is more efficient for the plant to reuse the energy and various molecular components of existing chlorophyll than to synthesize new chlorophyll at the time of flowering. During flowering this energy is needed to form floral clusters and ripen seeds.

Removing large amounts of leaves may interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. If this metabolic change occurs too late in the season it could interfere with floral development and delay maturation. If any floral inhibitors are removed, the intended effect of accelerating flowering will probably be counteracted by metabolic upset in the plant. Removal of shade leaves does facilitate more light reaching the center of the plant, but if there is not enough food energy produced in the leaves, the small internal floral clusters will probably not grow any larger. *Leaf removal may also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic change.*

If leaves must be removed, the petiole is cut so that at least an inch remains attached to the stalk. Weaknesses in the limb axis at the node result if the leaves are pulled off at the abscission layer while they are still green. Care is taken to see that the shriveling petiole does not invite fungus attack. 


whole thing available here
http://www.mellowgold.com/portugese/...nabotany2.html

I wonder if the trend of pruning leaves would change if folks knew it could cause hermies???
Enjoy <<<<<<Thanks to the OP Zues for shining some light on our beautiful green leaves,,,,I think this about sums up any debate on defoliation,, It's a shame that thread was closed,, lol maybe not,, Thank you as well UB for trying to keep the masses of weedwhackers at bay!!! Keep Em Green Yall!!


----------



## Rocketman64 (Aug 19, 2013)

/QUOTE]


propertyoftheUS said:


> *Truth About Removing Fan Leaves *
> 
> by riddleme
> 
> ...


FINALLY!!! Someone posts something 'on topic'. This was my original intent with the tribute to leaves. All I intended to do with this whole 'tribute' thing was to agree with the idea that aimlessly removing leaves from an otherwise healthy plant to somehow improve it's potential is just silly. The pics I posted were simply a distraction from the usual 'dripping-with-nectar- bud pics we all love. Let's not forget how we all get from point A to point B. Healthy leaves and roots = big buds. How you get there is your business. Use all the tricks in the book if you want- don't care. I don't think a single person here would be stupid enough to think a plant comes out of the ground sporting big, healthy buds. It's the leaves, stupid. Go ahead- pull every one of those pesky, green bastards off the plant if that's what you've heard is the way to go. Meanwhile, I'll be sacking up my buds while you're waiting for your plant to recover from the massive dose of stupidity you just gave it. Before flaming me with all the 'old hippy' comments about how I grow, go do your own research. I've had 30 years to do mine so you'll have some catching up to do. In the meantime, plant two identical strains at the same time, in the same medium, the same light source and watering schedule. Go ahead and remove a few leaves on one of them. Hell, go ahead and take all those damn things off. Report back here and tell me what you find. All due respect to those of you who truly have discovered new methods for growing that actually produce higher yields. It's your research, time and efforts that move us forward. My guess is, these methods generally do not produce better results by removing foliage to increase light to lower branches. I love this one, too, '....remove lower fan leaves and excess foliage so the plant can concentrate on making flowers.' Say what? The only thing that plant will be concentrating on is where it's going to get it's next meal when you take it's food source away. Need more light on the lower branches? Add more bulbs or plant the thing outside and leave it alone. This is just my two cents based on what has worked for me. Go grow weed however you want, I really couldn't give a shit, but don't come to the forums begging for answers when you decide to try some 'new and improved' method for growing a weed that's proven it can grow perfectly fine with absolutely NO human intervention. Growers like myself that grow 'old school' (god I hate that terminology) have already figured out there's no need to babysit these fucking plants. Control their environment if you must but then just let the damn things grow, you won't be disappointed.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 20, 2013)

I have posted that R.C. Clarke ditty (in the form of a discussion we had on defoliation many years ago) in every one of the many defoliation threads. 

I see the ignorance of some is as un-nerving to you as it is me.

UB


----------



## Sativied (Aug 20, 2013)

Rocketman64 said:


> *FINALLY!!! Someone posts something 'on topic'. This was my original intent with the tribute to leaves.* All I intended to do with this whole 'tribute' thing was to agree with the idea that aimlessly removing leaves from an otherwise healthy plant to somehow improve it's potential is just silly.


OK Ok ok ok...

Based on a few hours objective reading (Robert, Mel, Ed, Jose and other reputable sources)

1. Removing leaves removes essential reserves for primary nutes, which are mobile, so the plant can transport them to where they are needed. For example from old leaves to young new shoots when there is a nutes def in the medium. 
2. Removing healthy leaves can cause stunting/delay partly because the total amount of photosynthesis becomes smaller for the plant. Large leaves create a shadow but do so by catching light for the entire plant - an essential process for creating new material including plants, flowers, buds, etc.
3. Removing leaves can slow the transition to flowering, which causes the stretching to go on longer with the nett result being just having less leaves.
4. Removing leaves can cause stress, hence a decrease in yield. 
5. "_The buds that form from leaf axils with leaves removed are noticeably smaller than those where the leaves have been left on the branch._"
6. Leaf removal may also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic change. [I too expected that would change a few people's minds...]
7. Removing leaves weakens the plants and makes it more susceptible to pests and deceases. 

That's largely translated "_back_" to English from an excerpt of a _dumbed-down_ dutch post "The slaughtering of innocent leaves" which I wrote for some people on my side of the pond (including sources of course). Mainly to see if they had _any_ valid rational argument or decent side-by-side test experience or whatever... I don't need to explain how that went...


----------



## Sir.Ganga (Aug 20, 2013)

The whole problem with this debate is you have ramrods on oneside of the debate! Nice read though...If you look around you will see studies for the other side from legitimate author also. The whole thing about proof is a joke...anyone with any knowledge knows that all these studies, for or against, can not be backed because they are not DOUBLE BLIND STUDIES. Until there are its all here say. I could easily post a study done on vineyards that prove otherwise. One can only judge for themselves for their gardens...choose wisely because half your crop depends on it.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 20, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> .... I could easily post a study done on vineyards that prove otherwise.


As vineyard owner - why don't you "easily post that study".

It takes 13 - 15 leaves to ripen a cluster of grapes, and that's a fact.

The 7 points Satived presented are correct.

UB


----------



## ilikecheetoes (Aug 20, 2013)

how are you going to double blind or even blind test defoliating?


> A *blind* or *blinded experiment* is a test or experiment in which information about the test that might lead to bias in the results is concealed from the tester, the subject, or both until after the test.[SUP][1][/SUP] Bias may be intentional or unconscious. If both tester and subject are blinded, the trial is a *double-blind trial*.


Wait you could use a blind gardener that cant see the leaves or lack thereof.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 21, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> As vineyard owner - why don't you "easily post that study".
> 
> It takes 13 - 15 leaves to ripen a cluster of grapes, and that's a fact.
> 
> ...


How's this?: http://www.ajevonline.org/content/46/3/306.short




[*=left]Article[h=1]Partial Defoliation of _Vitis vinifera_ L. cv. Cabernet Sauvignon/99 Richter: Effect on Root Growth, Canopy Efficiency; Grape Composition, and Wine Quality[/h]


[*=left]J. J. Hunter,
[*=left]H. P. Ruffner,
[*=left]C. G. Volschenk and
[*=left]D. J. Le Roux
-Author Affiliations

Plant Physiologist, Plant Physiologist and Agricultural Research Technician, respectively, Nietvoorbij Institute for Viticulture and Oenology, Private Bag X5026, 7599 Stellenbosch, Republic of South Africa
Enzymologist, Institute of Plant Biology, Mycology and Phytochemistry, University of Zürich, Zollikerstrasse 107, CH-8008 Zürich, Switzerland.
​[h=2]Abstract[/h]_Vitis vinifera_ L. cv. Cabernet Sauvignon/99 Richter was grown under field conditions. The effect of partial defoliation (33%) in the lower half of the canopy at berry set stage, and thereafter at pea-size and veraison, respectively, on root development, distribution, and composition as well as on canopy efficiency, yield, grape composition, and wine quality was investigated. Defoliation evidently stimulated occurrence of fine and extension roots, which may have increased the absorptive capacity of the root system. Root number decreased with increasing depth and roots occurred predominantly in the top 800 mm of the soil profile. Starch was the principal carbohydrate storage form in the roots, irrespective of root size. Starch synthesis appeared not affected by root age. Sucrose and organic acid patterns were similar. Citric and tartaric acids were the main organic acids in roots, followed by malic acid. Elevated sugar and organic acid levels were found in roots of treated vines. The results demonstrate that the remaining leaves of partially defoliated vines were able to sustain normal metabolic functions in the roots. Canopy density was efficiently reduced by partial defoliation, leading to increased light penetration, fruit exposure, and photosynthetic activity of mature and old leaves. Although partially defoliated vines had much less leaf area per gram fresh berry mass at ripeness, yield increased considerably with defoliation at pea-size and veraison. Root density, yield, and cane mass were related. Grape total soluble sugar content was unaffected, but titratable acidity increased and the pH of the must decreased with partial defoliation. Ostensible increases in wine constituents (anthocyanins, phenolics), color density, cultivar character intensity, and overall wine quality were found in wines from treated vines.​


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 21, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> How's this?: http://www.ajevonline.org/content/46/3/306.short


Very interesting, thanks for the link. There is a lot more than what meets the eye and what you cherry picked. That was a S. African study and to be valid under all conditions, it would need to be replicated with many varietals grown and managed under different climes and terroirs in different areas. I know leafing on the east side is recommended by TX A&M in the fruiting zone but that is primarily for the sake of reducing a compound in the grape that contributes to herbaceous. I don't agree and I'm not about to leaf. My customers are producing premium wines. TX A&M has never presented wines for examination produced from partially defoliated vines and those left untact. This (Texas) isn't Napa. Our grapes cook enough in this Texas heat. There are plenty of studies showing exact cluster temps and how it affects grape quality. There is a study that totally refutes that recommendation of leafing, saying all a grape cluster needs to be at its prime is 10% dappled light in untreated vines. http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=getArticleSignIn&dataId=45457 You have to be a member to get the whole enchilada. 




> Managing Your Canopy to Prevent Overexposed Fruit
> 
> Wine quality may be at risk when fruit is overexposed to sunlight or when too many leaves are removed from the fruit zone.
> by Mark Greenspan
> ...


----------



## Sativied (Aug 21, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Plant Physiologist, Plant Physiologist and Agricultural Research Technician, respectively, *Nietvoorbij* Institute for Viticulture and Oenology, Private Bag X5026, 7599 Stellenbosch, Republic of South Africa


Funny, "Nietvoorbij" means "not over", as in this is not over yet 

Personally I can easily dismiss the entire study based on one word: grapes. The 7 items I listed sum up info from cannabis experts. That doesn't mean I don't trust the source or info, but it definitely means one cannot simply assume it applies to cannabis as well. Hence, we don't know if it's automatically true for cannabis (in let's say western climates and closets) as well.

To try and have a real discussion about this and few other controversial topics locally I posted the following and I think it applies here too:


> 1. Figure out what we know to be true.
> 2. Spend some time thinking about it.
> 3. Determine the best course of action.


From http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/building-logical-arguments.html 

Point 1 is key. Decisions or a course of action should be based on what you know to be true, on information that is accurate and relevant amongst others traits (and not on beliefs, wishful-thinking or 'opinions'). I know the 7 items I listed are true. I do _not_ know if it's true that defoliating MJ has any positive effect that would outweigh most or all the 7 cons in such a way that it changes something. Add step 2 and 3 and you'll know what to do... or in this case, what 'not' to do.


----------



## TonightYou (Aug 21, 2013)

Just wanted to give props to uncle ben. As many others have benefited from his knowledge, I have avoided mistakes as well. I purchased Mel Franks book on his advice, stopped loving my plants to death and bought Jacks instead of the bottle racket. 

By the way, since switching to Jacks I haven't had any of the problems I faced before and the added benefit of using all in one. Plus crop now cost a few dollars in nutes compared to over $50 for each harvest. 

So thanks again Uncle Ben. Many of us do appreciate your advice and input. Tbh I'd have a hard time dealing with some of this juvenile nonsense.


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 21, 2013)

University of Bologna, pretty much says it all!!!!


----------



## Sativied (Aug 21, 2013)

I know it's early and all, wake-and-bake and all, and it could be 'me' but I think someone needs to reread the study above a couple of times:



> The effectiveness of *early leaf removal on [already/too] high-yielding cultivars* Sangiovese and Trebbiano (Vitis vinifera L.) was investigated *as a tool for reducing crop potential and for inducing looser clusters* that are less susceptible to rot.


So... they investigated how leaf removal could be used as a tool to 'reduce' crop potential, to 'induce' popcorn...



> Fruit set, cluster weight, berry number per cluster, berry size, and *cluster compactness were reduced by all defoliation treatments* as compared to non-defoliated shoots.





> Overall, *early defoliation* may be an excellent tool for *yield control*, *replacing* time-consuming manual *cluster thinning*.



How is that research a valid argument to defoliate... it logically only works as argument not to defoliate MJ. They investigated means to create more popcorn... I could have told them that


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 21, 2013)

Sativied said:


> OK Ok ok ok...
> 
> Based on a few hours *objective reading* (Robert, Mel, Ed, Jose and other reputable sources)
> 
> ...


How do you really think you can be objective when you obviously have a preconceived notion based on some lengthy post you made in the past, which you hold so dearly. Your arguments are inconsistent. One study posted you simply dismiss because it's based on grapes. Then another you go into detail to debunk a different grape study -- it's still about grapes right, so by you're theory your debunking is invalid. 

While I do agree that Sir Ganja's post wasn't really a good example of how defoliation might increase yield, but it did point out a couple of other interesting findings which I also found in some other grape defoliation studies. I choose not to post all of those studies, but they are interesting nonetheless. I find it interesting that brix levels went up in the defoliated grapes, as well as a shift in other chemical compounds.

I'm not saying that defoliation is beneficial in every situation, but to discount it as harmful or not beneficial at any time is simply ignorant. Some of these grape studies actually imply that there is a genuine possibility of increasing chemical properties of cannabis through selective leaf removal, including potency. 

Also, your "7 truths" are not true in every case. Sorry.


----------



## TonightYou (Aug 21, 2013)

Sir Ganga, its not blindly following someone, its realizing that this dude knows his shit when it comes to basic botany. For fucks sake, if you followed up on UB suggestions you'd see there is science behind his suggestions. Plus I think you need to reasses your reading comprehension skills as you failed to understand what others pointed out (purpose of the study and why).


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 21, 2013)

TonightYou said:


> Just wanted to give props to uncle ben. As many others have benefited from his knowledge, I have avoided mistakes as well. I purchased Mel Franks book on his advice, stopped loving my plants to death and bought Jacks instead of the bottle racket.
> 
> By the way, since switching to Jacks I haven't had any of the problems I faced before and the added benefit of using all in one. Plus crop now cost a few dollars in nutes compared to over $50 for each harvest.
> 
> So thanks again Uncle Ben. Many of us do appreciate your advice and input. Tbh I'd have a hard time dealing with some of this juvenile nonsense.


Appreciate the feedback.

Grow hard,
Tio


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 21, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> This is how a one pound plant should look before flower!


Wow fellas, look at this hehe! 

<deleted image and post posted by Sir.Troll)






Excuse me? What in the hell is THAT shit? That crap won't yield 10 grams, you loud mouth newbie fraud. 



> NOW shut the fuck up,


No, YOU shut the fuck up and stay out of my threads, ya worthless posing troll. 

Oh, so you're done with me now, eh? oooooooooooooooooo......... (fuckin' idiot.....)

I can spot such a young newb as this a mile off. They always subscribe to ridiculous approaches to botany and write like an immature 15 year old.

Uncle Ben


----------



## TonightYou (Aug 21, 2013)

Well I appreciate the wisdom and time you drop on this site. Getting a little hippie love on ya, but this isn't something ya have to do, but rest assured there are many of us who value you. I joined this site due to you. I lurked forever and gleaned so much info and dispelled myths from you.

As a gardener before I became a grower, I seem to have lost my way over complicating a plant. As someone who appreciates science and logic over myths and old wives tales, you are more than on point.

Credit were credit is due. Fuck all the knobheads and their voodoo.


----------



## TonightYou (Aug 21, 2013)

Learn how to spell and the proper use of grammar.

It seems people have a negative light of him because he is direct and doesn't coddle "stuiped" users.
I prefer his directness and factual input.


----------



## TonightYou (Aug 21, 2013)

Most things UB has stated multiple times can be verified with even a simple google search. Better yet, check out the many sources he has CITED from educational institutes for further verification.

I doubt that you will correct your willful ignorance, and that sir is why you are stupid.


----------



## Sativied (Aug 21, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> How do you really think you can be objective when you obviously have a preconceived notion based on some lengthy post you made in the past, which you hold so dearly.


That 'lengthy post I made in the past'... I made about a week ago for the sole purpose of gathering arguments from (many) defoliators on my side of the big pond. People that have been growing high quantities for years, pay their bills with it. My approach - even despite the catchy title - was objective. Don't have to agree, don't have to like it, but your assumption that I'm just sticking to something I said in the past is incorrect (exactly your type of reasoning, in huge contrast to mine).

You can go ahead and "take a stand" as if it's some religion you're defending and argue with the other side, but don't expect me to be there, no need to 'project' me there either.



PJ Diaz said:


> Your arguments are inconsistent. One study posted you simply dismiss because it's based on grapes. Then another you go into detail to debunk a different grape study -- it's still about grapes right, so by you're theory your debunking is invalid.


You're just being a smartass here. No offense, I smiled  Not helpful though, won't lead you to find any truth. My arguments to not defoliate are very consistent. I did not debunk the second article, I have no reason to not believe what is in it. I assume it's true. And indeed, it applies as little to MJ (imo, did you notice the explicit "personally"...), but, if anything.... considering how some (not me _personally_...) value the comparison to fruits and veggies it could be, at most, used as an argument to not defoliate. Would you rather have I wouldn't have pointed it out and so he and others including you can fool yourselves that it's a valid argument to defoliate (rhetorical... pretty sure pointing out what I did is the right thing to do) Come on... I even took the high road and didn't saying what a f*** dumba.... and a bunch of wall smilies... 



PJ Diaz said:


> Also, your "7 truths" are not true in every case. Sorry.


Again you show "your" thinking, not mine. Why sorry? If you were actually be able to debunk those truths with valid arguments and sources to back it up, I'd be thankful. The proper thing to say would be "you're welcome". "I" don't feel attacked when you say I'm wrong (unlike vice versa...). Go through some of my older posts in similar threads and you'll find exceptions... I could make a way more convincing defoliator than you'll ever be.  I know, I argued quite a bit with myself (yeah... amazing what the human brain can do if you stay objective and open minded). See step 2 in a previous post.

I don't have a preference like most of you actually do seem to have (why!?  ). So unlike you, I don't have the need to convince myself or anyone else for that matter. I like to make informed decisions and encourage others to do the same. If someone wants to add more 'knowledge' on which I can 'base' decisions I love to hear it. Please let it be relevant, accurate, preferably complete, verifiable, timely and none of the 10 or so basic fallacies...


----------



## Y0da (Aug 21, 2013)

I think it's totally amazing the lengths people will go to to defend their opinions (and that, for the most part is all they are) like they were their daughters virginity.
Lol, bad luck if you're not a dad because you won't know what I mean, but if you are, I hope it makes you smile.
Sometimes I read through the posts on this site and I swear my kids are members here  Squabble, squabble, blah blah, yakkety-yak! )


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Aug 21, 2013)

I found milky colored microscopic orbs on my seedlings leaves. They do kinda look like mite eggs but no mites to be seen. By the way I used Uncle Ben's topping for 4 main colas on these little gals. Could they be oil glands? They're on the top and bottom of the leaves.


----------



## be1959 (Aug 22, 2013)

It is all about the leaves and roots. Leaves are the factorys/ batteries that make the buds. Better Batteries = Better Big Buds


----------



## Vincent VonBlown (Aug 22, 2013)

Defoliation is very much like pruning, when used correctly... It isn't feasible to do it with bigger crops as it's to much work... It works especially well with smaller grows because they ARE so small and crowded for the most part.


----------



## Vincent VonBlown (Aug 22, 2013)

Randomly ripping leaf from you plant, won't do anything, but cut your yield... It's very simple, don't you think?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 22, 2013)

Weird. Can't link to page 8 in spite of it showing.


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 22, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Weird. Can't link to page 8 in spite of it showing.


see if this works, page 8 https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/697256-tribute-uncle-ben-almighty-leaf-8.html


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 22, 2013)

Thanks. Emptied my cache and that fixed it. Can't beat CCleaner! If you want to keep your computer "clean" including a safe means of cleaning up your registry, CCleaner is the only way to go. Been using for years with no issues.


----------



## Sir.Ganga (Aug 22, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Wow fellas, look at this hehe!
> 
> <deleted image and post posted by Sir.Troll)
> 
> ...


 Someone stands up to you and proves you wrong and you banter and bully like a little child. _*YES that is a 1 pound plant*_..._*all day long.*_ If you new how to grow you would see that! That plant fits into a 3x3x3 space when fully mature, why? Because using a 600 watt lamp properly you only get a 3x3 footprint. Can you manipulate your plants to take up a certain space and produce a certain amount? _*I CAN!, Anyone can, You my friend can't because of your chip on your shoulder.*_ I have proven you wrong, you asked for studies and I have shown you so either apologize to the masses for misinforming them and your abuse or even better shut the useless trap...I have proven to everyone your bullshit doesn't fly here anymore...move along little man.


----------



## edyah (Aug 22, 2013)

UB has helped me on my first grow....

I used his soil mix, the spin out on the pots and topped for 4 main colas on 13 plants.....yeilded over 3lbs first grow. he has helped me grow

edit: all 13 plants vegged 4 wks from seed too


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 22, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Someone stands up to you and proves you wrong and you banter and bully like a little child. _*YES that is a 1 pound plant*_..._*all day long.*_ If you new how to grow you would see that! That plant fits into a 3x3x3 space when fully mature, why? Because using a 600 watt lamp properly you only get a 3x3 footprint. Can you manipulate your plants to take up a certain space and produce a certain amount? _*I CAN!, Anyone can, You my friend can't because of your chip on your shoulder.*_ I have proven you wrong, you asked for studies and I have shown you so either apologize to the masses for misinforming them and your abuse or even better shut the useless trap...I have proven to everyone your bullshit doesn't fly here anymore...move along little man.


 Couple questions here, Just WHEN did you prove him wrong?
Where are these supposed studies?
By EVERYONE, do you mean PJ DIAZ?
And the most important question
A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same
Stuff - grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns Out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?


----------



## TonightYou (Aug 22, 2013)

Ya did! Some knobheads wanna debate against a side who knows fucking botany like a boss.


----------



## TonightYou (Aug 22, 2013)

Well I'd hate for you to look ignorant but sir ganja is looking a fool at this point


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 22, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> Couple questions here, Just WHEN did you prove him wrong?
> Where are these supposed studies?
> By EVERYONE, do you mean PJ DIAZ?
> And the most important question
> ...


You got a boner for me Chuck?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 22, 2013)

billy4479 said:


> alright so whats the debate so far ? whos winning id prefer to help the underdog if I can


Anyone posting in this thread is not winning. Help us all!


----------



## TonightYou (Aug 22, 2013)

True but it passed the time in traffic. Plus misinformation is a pest which should be stomped out.


----------



## billy4479 (Aug 23, 2013)

Alright I brought this thread back it will remain back if you will all please quite using foul langue and play nice deal ?


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 23, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> You got a boner for me Chuck?


 Not really, but you are the only one agreeing with his defoliation theory, so i figured when he said EVERYONE, he meant you.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 23, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> You got a boner for me Chuck?


Not a real boner, just a mad on.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 23, 2013)

edyah said:


> UB has helped me on my first grow....
> 
> I used his soil mix, the spin out on the pots and topped for 4 main colas on 13 plants.....yeilded over 3lbs first grow. he has helped me grow
> 
> edit: all 13 plants vegged 4 wks from seed too


Nice job! 4# weeks of veg - yowzer!


----------



## direwolf71 (Aug 23, 2013)

I thought someone deleted this lousy thread?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 23, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> Not really, but you are the only one agreeing with his defoliation theory, so i figured when he said EVERYONE, he meant you.


Please show me where you think I agreed with his theory. I'm pretty sure that the closest I've come to agreeing is to say that I believe defoliation may be beneficial in some situations and in my experience doesn't hurt yield when done in moderation. I believe that there is a possibility that defoliation could potentially increase yield in some situations but there isn't enough testing done to be conclusive either way, so to be so closed minded is foolish. I don't really even know what sir Ganjas method is to know if I would agree or not. Then I still wouldn't be sure until I tried it for myself. I prefer to draw my own conclusions based on real world experience.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 23, 2013)

Sativied said:


> Leaf porn!


Yah sah! You're from the Dam and probably know a bit about Sag's breeding efforts. Remember Tony bred some Colombian with the Matanuska Thunderfuck around 2000 to make Peak19? Well, I did a F2 backcross. Check out this recessive Colombian leaf structure that showed up on one plant!







Not that's a skinny little lady!


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 23, 2013)

direwolf71 said:


> I thought someone deleted this lousy thread?


If it's so lousy, why are you here?

Man, the shit stirrers are a dime a dozen.

UB


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 23, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Please show me where you think I agreed with his theory. I'm pretty sure that the closest I've come to agreeing is to say that I believe defoliation may be beneficial in some situations and in my experience doesn't hurt yield when done in moderation. I believe that there is a possibility that defoliation could potentially increase yield in some situations but there isn't enough testing done to be conclusive either way, so to be so closed minded is foolish. I don't really even know what sir Ganjas method is to know if I would agree or not. Then I still wouldn't be sure until I tried it for myself. I prefer to draw my own conclusions based on real world experience.


o.k, sorry, i wasn't trying to start anything , just merely point out sir ganja's imagined followers


----------



## Darth Budder (Aug 23, 2013)

So as an argument against defoilating, here is a clone of a plant that i defoliiated the shit out of. The original plant at this time in flower was covered in nanners and this clone, this exact plant grown under the exact lights in the exact room, hasnt. Even though i trained the hell out of it. Wonder if not cutting the shit out of it had something to do with that? Sorry, i know there are flowers in these pics but there should be enough leaf porn to make up for it 

PS. this was fed jacks hydro + calnit and greened RIGHT the fuck up. Never had plants respond like that.

View attachment 2788703View attachment 2788704


----------



## Darth Budder (Aug 23, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yah sah! You're from the Dam and probably know a bit about Sag's breeding efforts. Remember Tony bred some Colombian with the Matanuska Thunderfuck around 2000 to make Peak19? Well, I did a F2 backcross. Check out this recessive Colombian leaf structure that showed up on one plant!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damnit, i had a plant that looked like that last year and had to kill it because of an unexpected roomate....


----------



## Foothills (Aug 23, 2013)

.View attachment 2788709 Another Tribute To Uncle Ben !! It was his advice that helped get me started. Glad the thread came back !


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 23, 2013)

Look at all these missing leaves, they transformed into buds. Leaves are overrated.

Defoliation is an advanced technique, this thread was started by a novice in the art of defoliation.

View attachment 2788727


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 23, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> As vineyard owner
> 
> It takes 13 - 15 leaves to ripen a cluster of grapes, and that's a fact.
> 
> UB


There you go, you have finally admitted that there is a necessary ratio for fruit and flower production to leaf surface ratio. That means depending on how the plant is growing that there is a set number of leaves that are necessary to support bud growth. So, if you have done some form of pruining or training and removed some of these bud sites, less leaves are required to support the same flowering growth for the plant aka defoliation.


----------



## Darth Budder (Aug 23, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> There you go, you have finally admitted that there is a necessary ratio for fruit and flower production to leaf surface ratio. That means depending on how the plant is growing that there is a set number of leaves that are necessary to support bud growth. So, if you have done some form of pruining or training and removed some of these bud sites, less leaves are required to support the same flowering growth for the plant aka defoliation.


Pardon my noviceness but it sounds like, and looks like, what you are talking about is minimizing the lower foliage to promote larger growth of the remaining bud sites. Isnt this something tomato farmers have been doing for like, ever? It doesnt have anything to do with these guys saying to strike off any leaf that is covering a bud site. I am fairly certain i have read that the buds and sugar leafs are super inefficient at photosynthesis. I actually read one guy that says he doesnt leave any leaf on the plant more then 2 weeks. Kidding right?

DB


----------



## TonightYou (Aug 23, 2013)

Jesus that right there is a damn tree! 

Second bringing back this thread. Don't understand Wtf was going on with this thread.


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 23, 2013)

Darth Budder said:


> Pardon my noviceness but it sounds like, and looks like, what you are talking about is minimizing the lower foliage to promote larger growth of the remaining bud sites. Isnt this something tomato farmers have been doing for like, ever? It doesnt have anything to do with these guys saying to strike off any leaf that is covering a bud site. I am fairly certain i have read that the buds and sugar leafs are super inefficient at photosynthesis. I actually read one guy that says he doesnt leave any leaf on the plant more then 2 weeks. Kidding right?
> 
> DB


Exactly sir. There are so many people out there giving defoliation a bad name because they don't understand that is s selective removal that has to do with a lot more than just photosynthesis. Most people think that defoliation means chop off all your fan leaves every 2 weeks. LOL first off, how can there be a set time for how long the leaves are to grow, it has to be done by observation and secondly havn't they noticed that when they remove all those fan leaves that the growth is slowed tremendously until the leaves come back? I don't get it, you need leaves, but you dont need them all, just enough.


----------



## Darth Budder (Aug 23, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Exactly sir. There are so many people out there giving defoliation a bad name because they don't understand that it is selective removal that has to do with a lot more than just photosynthesis. Most people think that defoliation means chop off all your fan leaves every 2 weeks. LOL first off, how can there be a set time for how long the leaves are to grow, it has to be done by observation and secondly havn't they noticed that when they remove all those fan leaves that the growth is slowed tremendously until the leaves come back? I don't get it, you need leaves, but you dont need them all, just enough.


Then I don't get why you two don't get along. I don't think I've ever heard Ben argue against that method. I think he even mentioned it in one of his posts on this topic. It's like you are arguing that he is saying topping is defoliation and that is stupid. 

Ben correct me if I am wrong, but don't you also prune out the lower growth to promote top production?


----------



## 420circuit (Aug 23, 2013)

Seems simple enough to remove the leaves that the plant doesn't need by trimming those that are yellowing. Unless you can do something to stop the yellowing and extend the ability of the leaf to do its job in support of the plant. The bickering sure gets old.

I appreciate what you do here UB, and thanks for helping to improve my yield. If you are ever in Colorado be sure to stop by the CO Patients forum and post a message.


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 23, 2013)

Darth Budder said:


> Then I don't get why you two don't get along. I don't think I've ever heard Ben argue against that method. I think he even mentioned it in one of his posts on this topic. It's like you are arguing that he is saying topping is defoliation and that is stupid.
> 
> Ben correct me if I am wrong, but don't you also prune out the lower growth to promote top production?


Why did my post double? thats weird

And No, UB never removes a single plant cell from any of his plants because the plant would not grow it unless it needed it.


----------



## Jimdamick (Aug 23, 2013)

Foothills said:


> .View attachment 2788709 Another Tribute To Uncle Ben !! It was his advice that helped get me started. Glad the thread came back !


That might be the best plant I've ever seen. Maybe I should read some more on UB methods. They seem to work.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 23, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> View attachment 2788727


That's a nice pic. I like it. I just recently discovered that angle as a good shot for a photo. It's kinda hard with my setup, but I've been pulling it off lately.

What variety is that?


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 23, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Exactly sir. There are so many people out there giving defoliation a bad name because they don't understand that is s selective removal that has to do with a lot more than just photosynthesis.


There isn't really a clear technique to give a bad name too..
As the argument gets deeper, the technique gets more vague. 

I would like to see a clear method. I would try it out. Shit, I'll try anything on one plant.

You should give your own technique a proper name... post a tek/thread.
Call it "Situational Leaf Slaughtering"... yeah?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 23, 2013)

Darth Budder said:


> Ben correct me if I am wrong, but don't you also prune out the lower growth to promote top production?


No, I'm a Ah Natruel kinda guy.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 23, 2013)

edyah said:


> UB has helped me on my first grow....
> 
> I used his soil mix, the spin out on the pots and topped for 4 main colas on 13 plants.....yeilded over 3lbs first grow. he has helped me grow
> 
> edit: all 13 plants vegged 4 wks from seed too


In what thread could I find his soil mix?


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 23, 2013)

Foothills said:


> .View attachment 2788709 Another Tribute To Uncle Ben !! It was his advice that helped get me started. Glad the thread came back !


Holy crap. I wonder how many watts you'd need to pull that off indoors.....


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 24, 2013)

420circuit said:


> Seems simple enough to remove the leaves that the plant doesn't need by trimming those that are yellowing. Unless you can do something to stop the yellowing and extend the ability of the leaf to do its job in support of the plant. The bickering sure gets old.


Yea the bickering gets old but the debating never will. It also is not about removing yellowing leaves either. Even though a plants leaf is yellow, and the chlorophyll is receding, there are still a number of other pigments that help fuel the photosynthetic reaction.

Ever notice how the leaves recede as you go towards the top of the plant into smaller more compact leaves? As the plant matures, during flowering there is a point that vertical growth is slowed tremendously and the leaves dont grow outward as much. It is right before this time that defoliation is key. If you time it right, your plant will replace the correctly removed leaves with smaller more compact, stoutier leaves that do not take up the same surface area but produce the same amount of energy required for the plants. Removing the leaves at the right time creates nodes on the plant that are more compact as well creating more dense buds. That is the trick hope all you guys are happy, experiment with it and I guarantee you will like the results. Just don't remove them all like a dumbass

EDIT: In that pic i posted, inside those buds are about 8-12 super compact nodes that grew close together and produced the leaves necessary for flower production. Eventually, the buds swelled up covering those leaves but they were there long enough to do there job. The lower fan leaves are older and were left there to support new growth after the defoliation process. Otherwise, the plants growth would have been severely stunted


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 24, 2013)

Foothills said:


> .View attachment 2788709 Another Tribute To Uncle Ben !! It was his advice that helped get me started. Glad the thread came back !


Thanks!

That is a VERY well grown plant and would mimic my credo - you've got nice dark green leaves, super full canopy, no lower leaf loss and the yield is gonna be incredible. Curious as to what soils, plant foods and other drills you've been giving it.

Well done!

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 24, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> In what thread could I find his soil mix?


*I use alot of brown sphagnum peat moss, a large bag of Schultz potting mix, and a bag of cheap potting soil (screened to get rid of the chunky stuff) to make up enough for 30 to 40 gallons of a final mix, which I mix on a cement floor using a shovel and store in large garbage cans. To this base which provides humates, an acidic hit, trace elements, etc. and a little silt to tighten up the mix and retain moisture, I add: 

6 or so cups blood meal, 3 or so cups bonemeal, 4 cups dolomite lime, 1 large bag each of vermiculite and perlite (available at Casa dePOT) and alfalfa meal which contains a hormone called triacontanol (purported to increase vegetable production up to 60%). I buy alfalfa feed pellets from a farm and ranch supply store, put about 4 cups of the pellets in a bucket with a gallon of water and give it a good squirt of Ivory dish soap to cut the surface tension, let it stand for 30 minutes, and then dump the slurry into the mix on the floor. I sometimes add composted horse manure, maybe about 3 or 4 gallons of it. The final, slightly moist soil mix is turned well with a shovel and stored for a couple of weeks in garbage cans to "mellow".*

I buy coarse vermiculite in large bags from a lumber yard. They look like 50 gal. bags, like 4' tall...... probably about 3 c.f.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 24, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> Holy crap. I wonder how many watts you'd need to pull that off indoors.....


600W would probably do it if you configured it right - quality reflecting panels, PLUS, you've got to get everything else right which he obviously has. One of my dalat vietnamese got the entire HID once I harvested its sisters. The light is blinding thanks to the panels. This is a view from the top shooting down into the garden. Dog chains hold up the heavy colas which are still bent over.

View attachment 2789686


----------



## Foothills (Aug 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Thanks!
> 
> That is a VERY well grown plant and would mimic my credo - you've got nice dark green leaves, super full canopy, no lower leaf loss and the yield is gonna be incredible. Curious as to what soils, plant foods and other drills you've been giving it.UB


 Thanks for the comments, UB and much of the credit goes out to you. You have done more to help get new growers started off in the right direction than anyone I know of on here.

I'm basically just a farm boy, loving life out in the country. So as you might guess, the plant did not receive a lot of special treatment.The soil mix was 50% garden soil (fine loam), 25% cheap potting mix and 25% aged horse shit, mixed together well in the container ( 32 gal. ) and left outside for a week or so to get things going in the mix. After the 4 or 5 week old plant is in the container, I top dress with about a 1" layer of aged chicken shit, pulled back from the main stalk a bit. I maintain the top dressing for the plants entire life.

After that I check on the plant almost daily and try to read whats going on with the entire process. I will only water my plants with rain water, as my well water is loaded with calcium and has a ph of around 8.5 .

As for fertilizers, I like Dyna-Grow because it's complete and the nutrient ratios they use when formulating it make good sense to me, I keep a bottle of Foliage, Grow, and Bloom on hand most the time. What formula I use at any particular time is always determined by the plants stage of growth and what my plant is trying to tell me when I go for a visit. I can tell you, and this may surprise some of you, I use more of the Grow formula during bloom than I do even the bloom formula and very rarely do I ever use any of them at full strength.

The 32 gallon container proved to be much to small toward the end and I was watering and feeding way to much. Thats a mistake I will not make again because it's a pain in the ass and it holds the plant back from achieving it's full potential. I'm an outdoor guy and I like those healthy, huge, outdoor plants, growing under the full sun, living out in nature, right where they should be, but of course, I'm one of the fortunate ones that can get away with it because of my location.

As far as balancing the PH out in my nutrient solution when I feed, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I don't like to hit my plants continually with a solution thats way out of range, especially when I know the container is not large enough to begin with.

Thanks again UB, for helping me along many years ago and also for the help you have continued to give many others since that time. You Da Man !!


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> 600W would probably do it if you configured it right - quality reflecting panels



Who are you kidding that a plant that size can be grown indoors under a 600 watt light. First off, that is a point light source and the canopy of the plant alone would prevent any light from reaching the lower 3 feet of that plant from direct light or reflected light. Just based on the angles alone anyone can see that is not possible indoors under a single light source.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 24, 2013)

Thanks Tio!


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 24, 2013)

Foothills said:


> Thanks for the comments, UB and much of the credit goes out to you. You have done more to help get new growers started off in the right direction than anyone I know of on here.


Thanks, I try. 



> I'm basically just a farm boy, loving life out in the country. So as you might guess, the plant did not receive a lot of special treatment.The soil mix was 50% garden soil (fine loam), 25% cheap potting mix and 25% aged horse shit, mixed together well in the container ( 32 gal. ) and left outside for a week or so to get things going in the mix. After the 4 or 5 week old plant is in the container, I top dress with about a 1" layer of aged chicken shit, pulled back from the main stalk a bit. I maintain the top dressing for the plants entire life.


32 gal. pot? No wonder you had such a fine looking monster, sheesh! Being lazy, I cheat.  I dig a hole about 3" deep, pull out any plugs in the drain holes (usually 6 holes in the commercial black pots), drop the 5 gal. pot in the hole, pack soil around the outside.....done.... and the plant/pot is stable during high winds. Roots will grow out of the drain holes into native soil and "re-purpose" the water/salts that have drained out of your pot. If you want to play games, make your own pots using a roll of RootBuilder. I've got tropicals in RootBuilder pots so big it takes a whole tractor bucket to fill them up. About 16"H X 30" W or so.

I'm surprised you were able to pull it off with garden soil additions. Usually that is too heavy but your success speaks for itself. I too am a user of horse manure. To me it's the best of the manures. Watch your source. If those horse grazing fields have been sprayed with broad leaf herbicides like picloram it will be passed through the horse and toast your faves. If you ever see any stem disfiguration, leaf chlorosis and disfiguration....your manure has broad leaf herbicide residues. 

Chicken chit is great too, but can be hot. I don't see any burn in that plant though. Just frickin' incredible! Am also a farm boy raising all kinds of goodies. Just got through fermenting a wonderful wine from my grapes that should really be "big" for example.



> After that I check on the plant almost daily and try to *read* whats going on with the entire process. I will only water my plants with rain water, as my well water is loaded with calcium and has a ph of around 8.5 .


"Read" - yep, you are a Master Gardener. 

Rainwater is the best no question about it. It contains beneficial microbes, myco fungi and when sourced from a thunderstorm, nitrates. I too collect rainwater off a greenhouse gutter using one of these - http://www.tanksforless.com/Norwesco-Rainwater-Tanks_c75.htm. Installed a cheap transfer pump, the plants love it and so do I thanks to the convenience. My well water is like yours, very hard like 800+ TDS, mainly bicarbs of Ca and Mg. Some sulfates which drops the pH down to 7.0.



> As for fertilizers, I like Dyna-Grow because it's complete and the nutrient ratios they use when formulating it make good sense to me, I keep a bottle of Foliage, Grow, and Bloom on hand most the time. What formula I use at any particular time is always determined by the plants stage of growth and what my plant is trying to tell me when I go for a visit. I can tell you, and this may surprise some of you, I use more of the Grow formula during bloom than I do even the bloom formula and very rarely do I ever use any of them at full strength.


Been preaching its virtues for years. BTW, Homebrewer did a clone test regarding yields and plant health between Grow and FP and the FP slightly eeked out the Grow. He has a very detailed journal at Riddlem3.com, an edited version here. You belong over there.  



> The 32 gallon container proved to be much to small toward the end and I was watering and feeding way to much. Thats a mistake I will not make again because it's a pain in the ass and it holds the plant back from achieving it's full potential. I'm an outdoor guy and I like those healthy, huge, outdoor plants, growing under the full sun, living out in nature, right where they should be, but of course, I'm one of the fortunate ones that can get away with it because of my location.


I hear that. I add clay silt to my pots to tighten them up a bit. I can only imagine how much you have to water that monster. It must wick off 2 gallons a day or more.



> As far as balancing the PH out in my nutrient solution when I feed, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I don't like to hit my plants continually with a solution thats way out of range, especially when I know the container is not large enough to begin with.
> 
> Thanks again UB, for helping me along many years ago and also for the help you have continued to give many others since that time. You Da Man !!


I don't worry about pH as one of my threads suggests.

Good luck, and keep in touch with photos and such.

Uncle Ben


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 24, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Who are you kidding that a plant that size can be grown indoors under a 600 watt light. First off, that is a point light source and the canopy of the plant alone would prevent any light from reaching the lower 3 feet of that plant from direct light or reflected light. Just based on the angles alone anyone can see that is not possible indoors under a single light source.


Sit, my patience is wearing real thin with you and I'm about let you go. I'll try to get thru, once more, and then that's it, I'm done. I have shown you plants that were crammed together such that the "point source" did not reach the lower levels that you seem to be so hung up on.

The way I configure my garden is not a "point source". I use highly reflective side panels that are adjustable such that they are always kept close to the foliage, and that may include panels in the corners that reflect light back into the canopy, tilted upwards. I also paint my floor covering white. Red mulches down tomato rows has been field tested to yield 30% or more.

Look.....research the use of reflecting panels which can increase light, what the plant sees, by 30% or more.

And stop parsing my posts. I said, which you parsed - "600W would probably do it if you configured it right - quality reflecting panels, *PLUS, you've got to get everything else right which he obviously has.*"

You're beginning to remind me of "journalist" shitheads like Diane Sawyer or Chris Matthews. 

UB


----------



## Sativied (Aug 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Look.....research the use of reflecting panels which can increase light, what the plant sees, by 30% or more.


I've mentioned something similar several times in the hydroponics forum, people looking for 'systems' and gimmicks that are supposedly going to get them over 1gpw and higher, or X pounds in Y weeks while they forget one of the most basics elements of indoor growing: proper reflection (and that includes a quality hood). I have even seen people hanging additional bulbs without hoods on the sides of plants in a corner of a room... or place CFLs close to lower leaves... Enclose it. Use reflective foil or plates* on all walls. Paint the ceiling white at least. 

*Google "Torsti´s next round" for example and check the Images results. Those plates are becoming increasingly popular amongst indoor growers in NL because several tests/measurements have shown they are more effective than foil (and way more effective than the white chalk myth). We call those plates Torsti/Torsten plates, after that guy, don't know yet what the official name for it is. It's like a plate with a layer of reflective aluminum. It's well-known here (where indoors is almost mandatory) that low quality reflection can easily cost you 10-20%. Having no reflection at all or even just white walls... If I had the endless energy to open the eyes of other growers like UB has, no/bad reflection would be to me as defoliation is to UB.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> *I use alot of brown sphagnum peat moss, a large bag of Schultz potting mix, and a bag of cheap potting soil (screened to get rid of the chunky stuff) to make up enough for 30 to 40 gallons of a final mix, which I mix on a cement floor using a shovel and store in large garbage cans. To this base which provides humates, an acidic hit, trace elements, etc. and a little silt to tighten up the mix and retain moisture, I add:
> 
> 6 or so cups blood meal, 3 or so cups bonemeal, 4 cups dolomite lime, 1 large bag each of vermiculite and perlite (available at Casa dePOT) and alfalfa meal which contains a hormone called triacontanol (purported to increase vegetable production up to 60%). I buy alfalfa feed pellets from a farm and ranch supply store, put about 4 cups of the pellets in a bucket with a gallon of water and give it a good squirt of Ivory dish soap to cut the surface tension, let it stand for 30 minutes, and then dump the slurry into the mix on the floor. I sometimes add composted horse manure, maybe about 3 or 4 gallons of it. The final, slightly moist soil mix is turned well with a shovel and stored for a couple of weeks in garbage cans to "mellow".*
> 
> I buy coarse vermiculite in large bags from a lumber yard. They look like 50 gal. bags, like 4' tall...... probably about 3 c.f.


When using soil like that with the bloodmeal and all I've read that using salts is bad cause it kills the beneficial microbes so using synthetic ferts like dyna gro will defeat the purpose of teas and amendments and all that other stuff. IOW just stick to either soluble nutes or "organics is this true???


----------



## billy4479 (Aug 24, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> When using soil like that with the bloodmeal and all I've read that using salts is bad cause it kills the beneficial microbes so using synthetic ferts like dyna gro will defeat the purpose of teas and amendments and all that other stuff. IOW just stick to either soluble nutes or "organics is this true???


 May I ask were your reading this stuff ?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 24, 2013)

Sativied said:


> .....Those plates are becoming increasingly popular amongst indoor growers in NL because several tests/measurements have shown they are more effective than foil (and way more effective than the white chalk myth). We call those plates Torsti/Torsten plates, after that guy, don't know yet what the official name for it is. It's like a plate with a layer of reflective aluminum. It's well-known here (where indoors is almost mandatory) that low quality reflection can easily cost you 10-20%. Having no reflection at all or even just white walls... If I had the endless energy to open the eyes of other growers like UB has, no/bad reflection would be to me as defoliation is to UB.


This is what I found. https://www.opengrow.com/topic/41965-torstis-next-round-28-x-s5-onder-540-watt-t5/page__st__20

Looks good.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 24, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> When using soil like that with the bloodmeal and all I've read that using salts is bad cause it kills the beneficial microbes so using synthetic ferts like dyna gro will defeat the purpose of teas and amendments and all that other stuff. IOW just stick to either soluble nutes or "organics is this true???


No, it's another myth perpetrated by the organic cultists who don't realize that organics ARE chemicals....or they wouldn't be of any benefit.


----------



## Sativied (Aug 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> This is what I found. https://www.opengrow.com/topic/41965-torstis-next-round-28-x-s5-onder-540-watt-t5/page__st__20
> 
> Looks good.


Yeah that's the one. Forum owned by same person as the local dutch forum (Sannie) where it has been tested some more by a moderator who build a small test setup to measure different materials (excluding direct light from source to meter). It's not that much better than foil, and obviously costs more than foil, but easy to clean and lasts much longer. And with some proper planning it doesn't need to go from top to bottom.

At NASA:






It sounds better in Dutch because it rhymes: "light is weight". So don't waste any of it.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 24, 2013)

Darth Budder said:


> So as an argument against defoilating, here is a clone of a plant that i defoliiated the shit out of. The original plant at this time in flower was covered in nanners and this clone, this exact plant grown under the exact lights in the exact room, hasnt. Even though i trained the hell out of it. Wonder if not cutting the shit out of it had something to do with that?


I'm thinking the 100 degree temps had more to do with your herm issues than removing a few leaves.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 24, 2013)

billy4479 said:


> May I ask were your reading this stuff ?


I mean I can't remember the exact posts but I'm sure I'm not the only person to hear/read it.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 24, 2013)

https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/464398-flushing-chemical-nutes-compost-teas.html


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 24, 2013)

https://www.rollitup.org/outdoor-growing/437747-chems-vs-micro-herd.html


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 24, 2013)

There were more but I tried keeping it RIU


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> No, it's another myth perpetrated by the organic cultists who don't realize that organics ARE chemicals....or they wouldn't be of any benefit.


I figured. I think killing the micros might result from fertilizer abuse but I didn't see normal levels nuking my soil


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 25, 2013)

People may get the wrong idea from my avatar but its not a "hood" way of idolizing money but rather my actual admiration of the man ben franklin was. He was a jack of all trades, a rebel, and a man that would seek higher education. At first I just wanted to grow my own shit, then UB perked my interest in regards to botany. Right now I'm at the point that I honestly want to learn botany and horticulture. I never realized how deep it went and how much of a gratifying challenge mastery of such a subject could be. A plant just a couple months ago was just a plant to me. Now I couldn't explain to you the excitement I get looking at these species. Not only marijuana, but all plants. Today I was in my in law's garden and it blew my mind what some of the plants everyday vegetables looked like. Veggies we take for granted as simple as cucumbers and beans. 

I apologize for the rant. I've had a couple so what I feel will spill out. I'm the type to get fully engulfed in whatever peaks my interest and I'd have never thought growing plants would be the next thing to entrance me.

I wasn't sure where to post this I just wanted to vent but then I realized that why not pay tribute to the guy that lead me this way in a tribute already dedicated to him...

UB its obvious to anyone that's willing to open their eyes that you're the real deal when it comes to growing in general. I hope to keep learning from you and the others that seem to keep their practices and theories rooted in real world solid and proven agricultural science. (Mini shout out to kite high, foothills, heartland hank, homebrewer and any others not mentioned that fit the bill)

Cheers to you Tio


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 25, 2013)

Sativied said:


> Yeah that's the one. Forum owned by same person as the local dutch forum (Sannie) where it has been tested some more by a moderator who build a small test setup to measure different materials (excluding direct light from source to meter). It's not that much better than foil, and obviously costs more than foil, but easy to clean and lasts much longer. And with some proper planning it doesn't need to go from top to bottom.
> 
> At NASA:
> 
> ...


3 thinned coats of Behr Ultra White latex paint has excellent reflective properties, at least 91%. It's cheap and only takes a few minutes to brush on a fresh coat. I have a home theater with front projector and researched screens and their gain before selecting one. You can also go that rout using a high gain screen material bought by the roll, some having embedded glass beads.

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 25, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/outdoor-growing/437747-chems-vs-micro-herd.html


As usual, it's one of those "I heard" drills with no scientific backup. If you heard it on RIU, then it must be true!


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 25, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> People may get the wrong idea from my avatar but its not a "hood" way of idolizing money but rather my actual admiration of the man ben franklin was. He was a jack of all trades, a rebel, and a man that would seek higher education. At first I just wanted to grow my own shit, then UB perked my interest in regards to botany. Right now I'm at the point that I honestly want to learn botany and horticulture. I never realized how deep it went and how much of a gratifying challenge mastery of such a subject could be. A plant just a couple months ago was just a plant to me. Now I couldn't explain to you the excitement I get looking at these species. Not only marijuana, but all plants. Today I was in my in law's garden and it blew my mind what some of the plants everyday vegetables looked like. Veggies we take for granted as simple as cucumbers and beans.
> 
> I apologize for the rant. I've had a couple so what I feel will spill out. I'm the type to get fully engulfed in whatever peaks my interest and I'd have never thought growing plants would be the next thing to entrance me.
> 
> ...


And a big "cheers" back. Yeah, Ben Franklin is one person to be admired. Too bad we don't have statesmen like that any more.

Gardening is fascinating, and addicting. Warning, don't get started with orchids! You just HAVE to have that big beautiful cattleya you saw at Jack's house....or that paph at Sunny's Orchid Nursery, or....  After being a slave to my orchids, having to spend every weekend re-potting those that were potbound, I finally sold the entire collection.

I learned my foliage growing drill with orchids. I tried to time the flowering response and concentrated on growing the most amount of foliage going into flowering that I could. That translated over when I got into cannabis. I'd have a phalaenopsis with 12 leaves stacked on top of each other, plant was 18" wide and would throw three 42" long spikes covered in 5" wide gorgeous white "wedding" flowers with about 25 flowers per spike....and the damn thing would bloom like that for 8 months! 

UB


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Sit, my patience is wearing real thin with you and I'm about let you go. I'll try to get thru, once more, and then that's it, I'm done. I have shown you plants that were crammed together such that the "point source" did not reach the lower levels that you seem to be so hung up on.
> 
> The way I configure my garden is not a "point source". I use highly reflective side panels that are adjustable such that they are always kept close to the foliage, and that may include panels in the corners that reflect light back into the canopy, tilted upwards. I also paint my floor covering white. Red mulches down tomato rows has been field tested to yield 30% or more.
> 
> ...


Why are you always such a crybaby whenever someone disputes what you say in your posts. The reason I chopped you're quote is because the rest didnt matter. You posted a 4 foot tall plant, his is easily 6-7 ft tall. If the light is a foot above the plant, the light source is going to be 7-8 feet from the lower leaves. What I was saying is that a 600 watt hid lamp does not have the intensity to maintain that lush amount of foliage at that distance. Reflected light is also increasing the distance even further lowering the intensity more as well


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 25, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Why are you always such a crybaby whenever someone disputes what you say in your posts. The reason I chopped you're quote is because the rest didnt matter. You posted a 4 foot tall plant, his is easily 6-7 ft tall. If the light is a foot above the plant, the light source is going to be 7-8 feet from the lower leaves. What I was saying is that a 600 watt hid lamp does not have the intensity to maintain that lush amount of foliage at that distance. Reflected light is also increasing the distance even further lowering the intensity more as well


Seriously. There's no way in hell you are gonna grow a plant like this with a 600w:


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> 600W would probably do it if you configured it right - quality reflecting panels, PLUS, you've got to get everything else right which he obviously has. One of my dalat vietnamese got the entire HID once I harvested its sisters. The light is blinding thanks to the panels. This is a view from the top shooting down into the garden. Dog chains hold up the heavy colas which are still bent over.



You really think your plant looks anything like the one above it? No comparison. None.

Oh, and what happened to all the leaves in your pic?


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 25, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Why are you always such a crybaby whenever someone disputes what you say in your posts. The reason I chopped you're quote is because the rest didnt matter. You posted a 4 foot tall plant, his is easily 6-7 ft tall. If the light is a foot above the plant, the light source is going to be 7-8 feet from the lower leaves. What I was saying is that a 600 watt hid lamp does not have the intensity to maintain that lush amount of foliage at that distance. Reflected light is also increasing the distance even further lowering the intensity more as well


I'm no expert, but I have seen guys (that had no clue what they were doing) grow plants with an incandescent bulb waaay far away from the top. The plant wasn't very dense, but they grew, and the few leaves they had were green. Go figure... 

My point is it doesn't take intense light for plants to grow. Even just small amounts of reflective light might keep those guys green. I don't know if marijuana works in the same way, but if you look at outdoor bushes, there iis like a shell of leaves while the inside area is bare.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> You really think your plant looks anything like the one above it? No comparison. None.
> 
> Oh, and what happened to all the leaves in your pic?


Did anyone realize he said that this plant in the pic got all the light after he harvested its sisters? That is one hell of a plant. So now take that space and fit in three or even just two more like the one seen in the pic and imagine the density.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 25, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Why are you always such a crybaby whenever someone disputes what you say in your posts. The reason I chopped you're quote is* because the rest didnt matter*.


Would someone please explain to this numbnuts how a 32 gal. pot, proper foods and other well thought out culture can and will produce such a fine plant? I could give a shit at this point. He doesn't get it and never will.

Point well taken Doi87.....it doesn't take intense light to grow fine plants. It's the sum of the parts that matters. Logistically, I know of no one that could grow and maintain a plant like that indoors no matter what the lighting was. 

UB


----------



## edyah (Aug 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice job! 4# weeks of veg - yowzer!


yeah, was taking advantage of the sun~!


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 25, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> You didn't answer the last question, This leads me to believe that you Don't know the answer and you shouldn't be giving advise on growing when you don't know SHIT!!!!!!!


what question wasnt answered


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 25, 2013)

Illuminati....


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 25, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> what question wasnt answered




_A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same
Stuff - grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns Out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?

_
​


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 25, 2013)

actually they don't all eat the same stuff, region climate and time of year will dictate what they eat more than likely in very different places . . . . 


and an obvious reason is each animals digestion is different. . . .what does that have to do with the price of tea in china

and understanding digestion specific attributes of animals and their similar diets has no direct link with knowledge in horticulture

1000 ways to skin a cat


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 25, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> actually they don't all eat the same stuff, region climate and time of year will dictate what they eat more than likely in very different places . . . .
> 
> 
> and an obvious reason is each animals digestion is different. . . .what does that have to do with the price of tea in china
> ...


Looks like you know your shit,lol


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 25, 2013)

not really . . .seems like common sense .....


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 25, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> not really . . .seems like common sense .....


C'mon man, your ruining the joke [video=youtube;f68VXKMZT1Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f68VXKMZT1Q[/video]


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 25, 2013)

nope, i just checked joke intact . . .thread still here


----------



## kroost (Aug 25, 2013)

Damn! You need a fucking scorecard to follow this thread.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 25, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> i guess so . . . UB has been on this kick that his tech is the only tech . . .. to use cause hes a commercial farmer .. . . . and everything he talks about is about as novice as tech as possible , keep leaves green and healthy . . .. fucking duh . . . .. . dont use fake nutrients . .. . fucking DUH, now his every nutrient brand is snake oil tripe is highly dubious . . .. . although he plugs dyna grow or some other companies product right after word every time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I haven't ever heard him say he invented that technique. He just posted it to introduce it to novice growers who otherwise were ignorant to it. And also you have to realize that the stuff he has been preaching IS super basic but only because a huge percentage of any marijuana forum members really have very little growing skill and or experience (myself included). I mean look at how many people toss out all of these brand names and light wattages and different "techniques" that are supposed to be advanced. They can spit out all this techinicall jargon but then can't figure out what some necrosis is showing up for or why leaves are dying etc. 

Just take a look at all the journals. So many are started and then the OP goes missing like hoffa. Probably because they tried to sound like pros and their plant ended up lookin like Charlie Browns Christmas tree. 

I feel like if you think you have growing pot down and you feel your ways of growing are solid by all means do you. But UB definitely has helped me along with many others at least step back and get the most important part of growing ANYTHING, the basics, down. 

He never claims to be some grow god. It others that give him props. In fact if anything he flames us on the way up and the ones tough enough to take the criticism and learn a thing or two benefit and get results to prove it.

And this thread is a TRIBUTE to UB. If guys really dislike him so much why in the world are you in this thread? He bothers some of you so much to the point you follow him to flame him?

If anything that type of behaviour only makes him seem even more important and larger than life. There are only two guys on here that get attention like that. UB and Subcool, and it makes others realize they must be doing something right to where they are followed by both people that love and people that hate them follow them. 

"I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right" - P.T. Barnum
"Without promotion something terrible happens.... Nothing!" - P.T. Barnum


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 25, 2013)

And the guy grows everything under the sun. He's literally a professional. People buy his grapes for fucks sake. Jesus tap dancin Christ if any one else on this forum can sell major weight in grapes you have my full respect...


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 25, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> I haven't ever heard him say he invented that technique. He just posted it to introduce it to novice growers who otherwise were ignorant to it.


Well, that's where you're wrong. From here: https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get-346.html#post5480974



Uncle Ben said:


> I did invent this topping technique. If you can prove otherwise, then do so, or shut the fuck up dlively. You're just being a petty little prick.
> 
> To whom it might concern, if you have nothing to contribute but FUD, then spin your bullshit elsewhere, not in my thread.
> 
> UB


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Well, that's where you're wrong. From here: https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get-346.html#post5480974


Ok I was wrong. +rep


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> So true man, I've had my posts deleted that refuted some of his claims as well as others that just seemed to disappear and I didn't even curse or use foul language.


Why don't you and SirTrollsAlot get a room together? You have so much in common.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 26, 2013)

patlpp said:


> For fucks sake........ wipe that splooge off your chin.


What's the point of comments like that?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> .....And this thread is a TRIBUTE to UB. If guys really dislike him so much why in the world are you in this thread?* He bothers some of you so much to the point you follow him to flame him?*
> 
> If anything that type of behaviour only makes him seem even more important and larger than life. There are only two guys on here that get attention like that. UB and Subcool, and it makes others realize they must be doing something right to where they are followed by both people that love and people that hate them follow them.


Yep, some of these folks need to get a life.  

I did invent a _specific_ method to induce 2 or 4 main colas for cannabis, for the record. The trolls will try to spin it saying I claim I invented topping or other pruning methods which have been done on plant material forever. Much to my amusement it was years later that Aryjan of Greenhouse Seedbank copied it and made my new training method into a YouTube video. Those who opine otherwise are just drawing straws to try demean me and that's OK. I understand the human psyche and how petty some folks can be. Back to the 4 main cola drill. Since I understood plant responses and what makes a plant tick, I observed the output on my first grows and noticing the output from the nodal axis thought, "wait a minute, why not use and allow that output to become main colas?" On the next garden, I snipped a few plants, it worked and a new way of training cannabis was invented. 

I go way back, long before internet forums like this existed and that's when I did a helluva lot of experimentation on cannabis. I already had an extensive background in horticulture so experimentation on plant material was second nature to me. For pot growers the very FIRST social site was a Usenet group called ADPC which I was active in. We used to post encrypted by chain mailing encrypted servers and used PGP to correspond in private. There was no PM's and email was not popular, we were exploring new space and we were criminals! Pot laws were brutal and folks were paranoid to even discuss growing pot. It was also during the FIRST days that folks had a channel to get seeds mailed to them from the Dam. Distributor's name was Jock. My avatar was some of that seed stock. We had a lot of heated discussions and I probably have trolls from that era still trolling me to this day....don't know. One of the most heated was a discussion between me and a very popular hydro grower with the handle "pH". Discussion was soil versus hydro he claiming this and that, me saying baloney.  

Then came some of the first sites, one which I modded. It was the first cannabis Vbulletin forum called cannabis.com aka Marihemp. Then came the largest site in all of history, Overgrow.com, such that it made newspaper news especially when Ron of Heaven's Stairway (and owner of OG and CW) got his large seed biz busted by the Canadian Royal Police..... his records, products, and computers confiscated. He also ran Cannabis World which potroast, the admin/owner here, moderated. I posted thousands and thousands of posts at all of those sites. Soon came hundreds of cannabis websites with Gypsy over at IC Mag, seedbanks, and the seed chuckers and forums popped up like a sunflower patch on a wet May day in Texas.

I still have hundreds of those conversations archived.

So that kiddies, is a little bit of history of the early virtual world.

Uncle Ben


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> What's the point of comments like that?


Please report him to the mods. We don't need disgusting filth like that. Notice the trolls who gave him a 'like' ?


----------



## genuity (Aug 26, 2013)

post some up-to-date pics,and you will get "likes" too....and if you really think you "invented" the method to get 2-4 mains....you are nuts.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> You didn't answer the last question, This leads me to believe that you Don't know the answer and you shouldn't be giving advise on growing when you don't know SHIT!!!!!!!


Do a search for his posts. Whew! Sunshine Mix is the first step to hydro? Peat and coir base? Uhhhhhhhh, OK. https://www.rollitup.org/michigan-patients/708471-growers-beware-sunshine-mix-4-a.html


----------



## patlpp (Aug 26, 2013)

Sorry for the prior comment if it offended anybody. It just gets a bit disgusting sometimes when I read some of these blatant brown nose, ass-kissing posts. 

It gets my eyes rolling and I get a headache.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 26, 2013)

patlpp said:


> Sorry for the prior comment if it offended anybody. It just gets a bit disgusting sometimes when I read some of these blatant brown nose, ass-kissing posts.
> 
> It gets my eyes rolling and I get a headache.


I'm not offended. Just don't understand why theres all this animosity in these threads. Like I said it's a thread a member made as a tribute to another member. Whether or not others disagree is fine but why come into a tribute thread to shit on others? You wouldn't do that in the real world. I quickly glanced at a few of your posts on your profile and it seems like maybe you were in the service? Either way, I'm sure there are guys who are complete tools but if someone set up an event in honor of the guy people who for whatever reason disliked him wouldn't camp out and crash it for only the sake of shitting on the guy.

I dunno I just wish things were more civil. As someone trying to get a grasp on all the aspects of growing, some people really make it difficult. What ever happened to stoners being happy people?

Peace and love bros


----------



## Sativied (Aug 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Much to my amusement it was years later that Aryjan of Greenhouse Seedbank copied it and made my new training method into a YouTube video.


 Yeah, that sounds like Arjan from GHS, the self-proclaimed "king of cannabis"  For more amusement watch a recent docu on strainhunters... Every time I see/hear/read (about) Arjan I get what we refer to as 'a feeling of place-exchanging shame'.

I don't know how old his vid is but I'm sure I can find examples older than Arjan's, obviously.



Uncle Ben said:


> The trolls will try to spin it saying I claim I invented topping or other pruning methods which have been done on plant material forever.


Yes, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man just another fallacy, and how those who don't have valid arguments debate. I've seen many many many topped plants over many years and when I read yours it seemed original enough to call it UB's topping technique. Seems like quite a waste of veg time as well but that's besides the point


----------



## patlpp (Aug 26, 2013)

@Dboi87 You just went on and on man...couldn't help it. You mentioning I was in the service: That is exactly where I've seen brown nosing done to a fine art. Totally disgusting. I will be civil for now on. 

But the slinging started here by Mr Roasted man of honor himself: 



Uncle Ben said:


> Sure you do. And I'm a rocket engineer getting ready to fly some cannabis to Mars.


----------



## Rocketman64 (Aug 26, 2013)

Foothills said:


> .View attachment 2788709 Another Tribute To Uncle Ben !! It was his advice that helped get me started. Glad the thread came back !


I can see me building a tree house in this thing! This is an absolutely beautiful specimen, thanks for sharing! Outside of maybe a little pruning for shape, have you done any 'major' defoliation on this beast?


----------



## Rocketman64 (Aug 26, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Look at all these missing leaves, they transformed into buds. Leaves are overrated.
> 
> Defoliation is an advanced technique, this thread was started by a novice in the art of defoliation.
> 
> View attachment 2788727


If you read my opening comments to get this thread going, you'll see I used phrases like 'to each his own' and 'if it works for you- go for it'. I never mentioned that I thought my way or UB's way is the ONLY way. I've been an outdoor grower from 1979 to present. Yes, I am a novice when it comes to the art of defoliating because I have never had the need to defoliate a plant under any circumstances. Indoor growing has exploded in the last decade and obviously new methods are going to be discovered. Are all new methods better? Probably not. Are some more productive? Probably. Apparently I struck a cord in this forum with this thread because the comments I'm reading are pretty divided on the topic of defoliation. I would hope we could all agree that nobody has the 'BEST' method for growing. Plenty of people have what_ they _consider to be the best based on_ their _experiences. My experience is in outdoor growing. I wouldn't for a minute claim I know the best way for you to grow your stuff indoors. I would hope people would give me the same courtesy as to not tell me how to grow outdoors by suggesting I trim, prune, defoliate, cut or otherwise deface my plants. Again, you do it your way- I'll do it mine. We'll both be smoking quality bud when it's all said and done. By the way, beautiful group of plants you've got there, some serious yield in that room. Congrats!


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 26, 2013)

patlpp said:


> @Dboi87 You just went on and on man...couldn't help it. You mentioning I was in the service: That is exactly where I've seen brown nosing done to a fine art. Totally disgusting. I will be civil for now on.
> 
> But the slinging started here by Mr Roasted man of honor himself:


Sorry lol I can be a bit long winded. But I work 60 hours a week for a chemical plant so when I finally get time to post it allll comes out.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 26, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> What ever happened to stoners being happy people?


Give the Toke n Talk section a try... haha.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

patlpp said:


> Sorry for the prior comment if it offended anybody. It just gets a bit disgusting sometimes when I read some of these blatant brown nose, ass-kissing posts.
> 
> It gets my eyes rolling and I get a headache.


Then turn off the god damn TV. Comprehende usted?


----------



## patlpp (Aug 26, 2013)

I don't watch much TV Crusty.


----------



## lilroach (Aug 26, 2013)

I am a fairly new grower....until I got some solid info from someone that mirror's Uncle Ben's growing methods...and doing what Uncle Ben has shared, I"ve gone from a little over one ounce per plant to a consistent three ounces per. I stopped "pruning" or "defoliating", I used the recommended "Jack's Classic", and currently have plants topped per Uncle Ben's suggestion.

I've followed suggestions from other "experts" on here and elsewhere and while my plants seemed healthy, they don't come close to what I'm getting following UB's growing technique.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 26, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Look at all these missing leaves, they transformed into buds. Leaves are overrated.
> 
> Defoliation is an advanced technique, this thread was started by a novice in the art of defoliation.



Like I said... nice plants....
the leaves "transformed" into buds? really?
tell me more about this transformation. Please.

Have your yields increased since we discussed them a couple months ago?
Still using co2, right?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

Sativied said:


> Yeah, that sounds like Arjan from GHS, the self-proclaimed "king of cannabis"


Many years ago I used to correspond with a hydro grower at the first site that I mentioned, cannabis.com. He uncovered some of the dirty laundry of the MJ biz that goes on at the Dam. Hope not to offend you but he said it's some of the sleeziest business practices he's ever seen. He and his wife were filmed during the infamous 'Pot of Gold' documentary hosted by the late Peter Jennings. They're standing in one of the coffee shops. Anyhoo......to make a long story short he didn't like Aryjan....AT ALL. Said that he bought off Cannabis Cup judges which although unethical, makes perfect sense because of this gullible crowd and the profit potential. I mean, if it's a Cannabis Cup winner it's got to be good shit man! Right? I don't have any way to verify my friend's claims even though he was a straight shooter, but that kind of crap doesn't surprise me - it's all about the money. You stand to make BIG bucks on the sale of a Cannabis Cup winner.

Having said that I'm one of those capitalist pigs but I'll make my money without stabbing someone in the back and then picking their pockets.

UB


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 26, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Someone stands up to you and proves you wrong and you banter and bully like a little child. _*YES that is a 1 pound plant*_..._*all day long.*_ If you new how to grow you would see that! That plant fits into a 3x3x3 space when fully mature, why? Because using a 600 watt lamp properly you only get a 3x3 footprint. Can you manipulate your plants to take up a certain space and produce a certain amount? _*I CAN!, Anyone can, You my friend can't because of your chip on your shoulder.*_ I have proven you wrong, you asked for studies and I have shown you so either apologize to the masses for misinforming them and your abuse or even better shut the useless trap...I have proven to everyone your bullshit doesn't fly here anymore...move along little man.





chuck estevez said:


> Couple questions here, Just WHEN did you prove him wrong?
> Where are these supposed studies?
> _::snipped::_


Good luck with that... I've been hearing about these forever... the "proof" "solid research". You ask for it and then they move on.

I REALLY do want to see it.

So far, I've seen a couple threads showing some side by sides and some paragraph about some kind of peas showing increased yields from defoliation..

We have to set *some* kind of standard here guys..


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

patlpp said:


> I don't watch much TV Crusty.


Why is it that some get my points and some don't....or is this the Straw Man drills Satived was talking about LOL.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

lilroach said:


> ..... they don't come close to what I'm getting following UB's growing technique.


Need to address this. I don't do anything a typical commercial horticulturist would not do. IOW, when it comes to cannabis forums compared to conventional gardening techniques right is wrong and wrong is right. This place just has to make growing a weed as confusing and complicated as they can.

Having said that, if a newbie would pick up a couple of "normal" books on basic plant gardening they wouldn't be taken in by the hype and have the problems they're having. See the Plant Problems forum here....it's the same ol shit, just a different day.

UB


----------



## patlpp (Aug 26, 2013)

I get you need your ego stroked too much and I for one will not do it.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

patlpp said:


> I get you need your ego stroked too much and I for one will not do it.


Fine. Hate to pop your bubble, but you are not important to me. I really don't care what you do or think.

Now....are you through, ya fuckin' newbie pinhead?



patlpp said:


> I have had stellar results using Sensi base, better than Dyna. I've had no issues where I "Need more N" . I get the 2 gal combo for ~ 60$ and use at 3/4 strength at most. Nothing else. I am not losing any sleep over that ridiculous cost LOL .
> 
> Your time is money too bud.


https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/707084-advanced-nutes-2.html#post9507865

Quick cursory glance at your posts says it all.

https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/710008-make-your-own-sweet-less.html#post9513352



> What do you use to get the sulphur in there ? Thanx


Ya drink it. Goes down easier with a dash of lime and coconut milk.

I can spot an AN sucker in a heartbeat......


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> *Why is it that some get my points and some don't*....or is this the *Straw Man drills* Satived was talking about LOL.


i love comedy

tells us agian .. farming one of the first industries . . ever . .1000's adn 100's of years

but topping at the 3rd node to send growth auxins to lower branches forcing them to be main branches , is something you discovered . . . and then later a hack of a breeder(stole all his genetics) makes a video about it, cuase he met you or knwos you . . . . GHS is a bigger joke then your claim to dutch seeds/breeders greatness


this is more like a true greek comedy . . .

and not the kind you get in on the corner


----------



## burgertime2010 (Aug 26, 2013)

I used to think UB was such an asshole......I still do, but I used to also...................................kidding.


----------



## patlpp (Aug 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Fine. Hate to pop your bubble, but you are not important to me. I really don't care what you do or think.
> 
> Now....are you through, ya fuckin' newbie pinhead?
> 
> ...


So who's talking about parsing..... My next post: 



patlpp said:


> Thanks for that and for not ridiculing me buddy, Mag SULPHATE :


[video=youtube;Hy5wNeSPzfQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=Hy5wNeSPzfQ[/video]

I inadvertently thought of Mag nitrate, not sulfate. Notice how we kept it nice? Something your fucked-up personality is incapable of. 

Why did you fail to mention that? 

I am an AN user, yes. of Sensi Base. Gotta problem with that? Show me where it's ingredients are any less effective than your sacred Dyna. 

Sensi:

Humic/fulvics
Aminos
Wetting Agent
1-1-2 ratio which is Perfect for bloom (provided you dont use some high ammoniacal N that takes 20-30 days for full effect.) NEED MORE N, NEED MORE N. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH 
I have no "need more N" never. never never never
$60 a gallon bitch delivered. 3/4 strength at most. Superb Bud. I am a sucker I guess. 

Where is that post of yours confirming high P foods are not needed, could it be "Big Mike" ?


----------



## Sir.Ganga (Aug 26, 2013)

Sadly patllp it won't make a difference. I have posted 3 different studies on the subject of defoliating vineyards. Not only has he not replied but all the studies have disappeared, then I received a nasty message from a Mod DEMANDING I give UB respect or will get ousted. I posted the studies AGAIN with respect and they were deleted again! Again another message...Once you corner him watch out because that's when the RIU teeth come out.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 26, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Give the Toke n Talk section a try... haha.


I've actually been noticing that. Stoners are still happen as long as they don't talk about growing. 

Worst topics of conversation ever: gun laws, politics, religion, and marijuana growing


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 26, 2013)

lilroach said:


> I am a fairly new grower....until I got some solid info from someone that mirror's Uncle Ben's growing methods...and doing what Uncle Ben has shared, I"ve gone from a little over one ounce per plant to a consistent three ounces per. I stopped "pruning" or "defoliating", I used the recommended "Jack's Classic", and currently have plants topped per Uncle Ben's suggestion.
> 
> I've followed suggestions from other "experts" on here and elsewhere and while my plants seemed healthy, they don't come close to what I'm getting following UB's growing technique.


Same here. I'll post pics later of the plants pre-UB, and post UB.


----------



## Vincent VonBlown (Aug 26, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Sadly patllp it won't make a difference. I have posted 3 different studies on the subject of defoliating vineyards. Not only has he not replied but all the studies have disappeared, then I received a nasty message from a Mod DEMANDING I give UB respect or will get ousted. I posted the studies AGAIN with respect and they were deleted again! Again another message...Once you corner him watch out because that's when the RIU teeth come out.


 If that's true then there is obviously something quite wrong here...


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> If that's true then there is obviously something quite wrong here...


I'm sure it is a lie, as he lied alleging I never made comments about leafing vineyards, which I did and which were pretty extensive. He's just another RIU fruitcake. Comparing leafing of cannabis to leafing grapes is pretty stupid - it's done for different reasons and by different folks. There's the first group of dumbshits who fall for gimmicks and then there's the vineyard pros who are trying to manipulate the chemistry of fruit for the sake of the wine. 

Having said that, for those of you that give me Rep with comments all the time, sorry, I don't know who you are, the author is not listed. Nor can I give Rep back or make or receive PM's. 


UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

Yep, he's a liar and pussy too. Here's that post, #130:



Uncle Ben said:


> Very interesting, thanks for the link. There is a lot more than what meets the eye and what you cherry picked. That was a S. African study and to be valid under all conditions, it would need to be replicated with many varietals grown and managed under different climes and terroirs in different areas. I know leafing on the east side is recommended by TX A&M in the fruiting zone but that is primarily for the sake of reducing a compound in the grape that contributes to herbaceous. I don't agree and I'm not about to leaf. My customers are producing premium wines. TX A&M has never presented wines for examination produced from partially defoliated vines and those left untact. This (Texas) isn't Napa. Our grapes cook enough in this Texas heat. There are plenty of studies showing exact cluster temps and how it affects grape quality. There is a study that totally refutes that recommendation of leafing, saying all a grape cluster needs to be at its prime is 10% dappled light in untreated vines. http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=getArticleSignIn&dataId=45457 You have to be a member to get the whole enchilada.





> Managing Your Canopy to *Prevent Overexposed Fruit*
> 
> Wine quality may be at risk when fruit is overexposed to sunlight or when too many leaves are removed from the fruit zone.
> by Mark Greenspan
> ...


----------



## patlpp (Aug 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'm sure it is a lie, as he lied about some comments I made about leafing vineyards which were pretty extensive. He's another RIU fruitcake. Comparing cannabis and grapes is pretty stupid.
> 
> Having said that, for those of you that give me Rep with comments, sorry, I don't know who you are, the author is not listed. Nor can I give Rep back or make or receive PM's.
> 
> ...


Then practice that here.......


----------



## Sativied (Aug 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Hope not to offend you but he said it's some of the sleeziest business practices he's ever seen.


No offense taken, I'm actually trying to get a little more insight. I just know bits and pieces, started reading up a bit recently (about Arjan, Shantibaba, Mr Nice, Neville, Sam the Skunkman, etc). It seems like a small world, especially in the early days. Not sure what to make of it all yet but there sure seems to be quite a bit of dirt. Although Arjan did take a big piece of the pie, he does not represent everyone in the business in NL as he likes to think himself (not that there isn't plenty of dirt to find on others...). To put it mildly, he's not particularly popular in the dutch grow forum (which does happen to be owned by another breeder, Sannie). 



Uncle Ben said:


> Said that he bought off Cannabis Cup judges which although unethical, makes perfect sense due to this gullible crowd. [...] I don't have any way to verify his claims but that kind of stuff doesn't surprise me - it's all about the money.


Well, I've often wondered who buys the cup's "judge's passes"... Don't know if it was the same back then with the judge's passes, but when you own a coffeeshop in Amsterdam on a popular spot already and got plenty of easy money... Regardless of what really happened, I attach zero value nowadays to who 'wins' the cup. It's not entirely bs because breeders of course submit what they think is their best (or at least goes best with the paying customer), but it sure as hell does not mean that the winners are better than _any_ of the other entries.



Uncle Ben said:


> stabbing someone in the back and then picking their pockets.


I own a reputable company (not related to MJ and not nearly as large as Arjan's) but do business primarily with US companies and that's not how 'we' generally do business over here.  Win-win with a fair and healthy balance instead.


----------



## lilroach (Aug 26, 2013)

Having worked on fruit farms during my younger years, I find the comparison between grapes or any other fruit vs. weed to be illogical.

Other than both being plants, there's very little similarities between pot and fruit. Pot dies after blooming, fruit returns the following year. Seeds are inside the fruit, pot-seeds are inside of buds. Pot resembles corn more than anything else.....and I don't see farmers pruning corn stalks.


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'm sure it is a lie, as he lied alleging I never made comments about leafing vineyards, which I did and which were pretty extensive. He's just another RIU fruitcake. Comparing leafing of cannabis to leafing grapes is pretty stupid - it's done for different reasons and by different folks. There's the first group of dumbshits who fall for gimmicks and then there's the vineyard pros who are trying to manipulate the chemistry of fruit.
> 
> Having said that, for those of you that give me Rep with comments all the time, sorry, I don't know who you are, the author is not listed. Nor can I give Rep back or make or receive PM's.
> 
> ...


 I thought it was invite only, How do you get on?


----------



## Nizza (Aug 26, 2013)

yeah i second that i'd love to dig into some good info on there


----------



## UncleBuck (Aug 26, 2013)

what is it with assholes on this site going by the initials UB?


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 26, 2013)

lilroach said:


> Having worked on fruit farms during my younger years, I find the comparison between grapes or any other fruit vs. weed to be illogical.
> 
> Other than both being plants, there's very little similarities between pot and fruit. Pot dies after blooming, fruit returns the following year. Seeds are inside the fruit, pot-seeds are inside of buds. Pot resembles corn more than anything else.....and I don't see farmers pruning corn stalks.


Pot plants do not die after blooming. If you picked all your bud off and left the leaves, then gave the plant 2 weeks of 18/6 light then back to 12/12 the plant will begin to re-flower. The plants die cuz we hack them to shit or they are in an environment not suitable to continue growth.


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 26, 2013)

lilroach said:


> Having worked on fruit farms during my younger years, I find the comparison between grapes or any other fruit vs. weed to be illogical.
> 
> Other than both being plants, there's very little similarities between pot and fruit. Pot dies after blooming, fruit returns the following year. Seeds are inside the fruit, pot-seeds are inside of buds. Pot resembles corn more than anything else.....and I don't see farmers pruning corn stalks.


corn can be picked too and forced to reflower you have no idea what ur talkin about


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 26, 2013)

i reveg flowering plants on the regular

how i stay in my numbers and run as many strains as i do


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 26, 2013)

Corn has been over generation selected for it s traits . . .just like filial generations of pot . . .its grew the way it does becuase of hard work and diligent farmers . . .selectivily choosing what traits to breed for/with

and over generations we have what we call today as corn


----------



## patlpp (Aug 26, 2013)

There was a thread on another forum where this guy continually harvested,veg,harvested the same plant for like over 10 years. Damn thing looked like the blob! He would pull 20 zips a harvest easy. Indoor , hydro. I'm looking now for the link and will post.


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 26, 2013)

thats pretty sweet . . . 

i know i guy whos done the same thing with climatizing a strain to where we live . . .a old school skunk at that . . .lucky us 15 years later its almost done

lets the plants he like best mature and die and reseed the soil . . . then next year, after the frost and snow he clears it they sprout again and he nurtures them to summer

he intentionally soes seeds too(well . .mostly) but i thought it was cool to mention that it naturally seeds as well


----------



## lilroach (Aug 26, 2013)

Ok.......I posted with a vague and broad stroke regarding weed's growing cycle. I live in upstate NY and we have four real extreme seasons. After one of our winters, weed would be dead. Grapes and other fruits would survive. I hope that clears this up.


----------



## Darth Budder (Aug 26, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> corn can be picked too and forced to reflower you have no idea what ur talkin about


Cannabis is an annual. Forcing it to reveg doesn't change the fact that its natural cycle is to die as an individual and survive through reproduction. 

Did you say you were a professional gardener of some sort?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> I thought it was invite only, How do you get on?


I've not referred anybody but I guess it's as easy as someone like me, a member, to ask admin to open up the gate to my referral.

Let me know if you want in and I'll PM admin.

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

lilroach said:


> Ok.......I posted with a vague and broad stroke regarding weed's growing cycle. I live in upstate NY and we have four real extreme seasons. After one of our winters, weed would be dead. Grapes and other fruits would survive. I hope that clears this up.


Yep.

Grapes are a perennial, cannabis is an annual.


----------



## a mongo frog (Aug 26, 2013)

Can we please use a few snake oils to boost things up a little? Can we please do this without any one getting mad?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

UncleBuck said:


> what is it with assholes on this site going by the initials UB?


Don't have a clue, Uncle Bloomingdale.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> corn can be picked too and forced to reflower you have no idea what ur talkin about


Oh hell ya! I see Texas farmers all the time revegging corn.  

Look, that was about as stupid as stupid gets. Corn does not reveg, it's an annual, pinhead. Grow some and find out for yourself. It grows from seed, stalks, tassels, ears fill out (if you're lucky) and then the plant dies a natural death.

Some of you newbs are really stretching it here. 

UB


----------



## patlpp (Aug 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I've not referred anybody but I guess it's as easy as someone like me, a member, to ask admin to open up the gate to my referral.
> 
> Let me know if you want in and I'll PM admin.
> 
> UB


Yea I want in UB. Please PM admin for me.... Since we're real tight and all.


----------



## lilroach (Aug 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben......I would love to get away from the trolls....sign me up!


----------



## 420circuit (Aug 26, 2013)

Lots of words but not much content. Has anyone here worked in their garden today? Would love to learn something new about growing. Already enough crazy fuckers running around belching hot air. Anyone got anything other than psycho-babble?

What I got from this so far is that leaves are good and there are a lot of self-absorbed noisemakers who need to feel more important or relevant or some psy thing............ Hey, Uncle Ben, do you have a FAQ for newbies that is dumbed down enough for the users on RIU? I seem to recall that you were a fan of Jack's, which I have become recently after trying in in hydro. Also, I won't be taking any more plants to flower without topping, so I do appreciate that tip.

As far as mod interventions, how about cutting their pay if they do it poorly?


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 26, 2013)

situation420 said:


> corn can be picked too and forced to reflower you have no idea what ur talkin about


lmao....not!!!!! You dont know what your talking about. Maybe you have detasseling and hybridizing confused.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 26, 2013)

Everytime I look at this thread title, I can't help but to think it should really say "A tribute to Uncle Ben and his Almighty Queef"


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 26, 2013)

I've come to realize that the Uncle Ben persona is much like the bible. It you can filter out all the bullshit there is some good stuff in there. Sure, you could live your gardening life strictly following his ways, and have a good garden -- however, in doing so you may be held back by doctrine and not reach your full potential.


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I've not referred anybody but I guess it's as easy as someone like me, a member, to ask admin to open up the gate to my referral.
> 
> Let me know if you want in and I'll PM admin.
> 
> UB


that would be cool!!!


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 27, 2013)

Darth Budder said:


> Cannabis is an annual. Forcing it to reveg doesn't change the fact that its natural cycle is to die as an individual and survive through reproduction.
> 
> Did you say you were a professional gardener of some sort?


No one mentioned anything about life cycles, i just pointed out the fact that 80% of information that was posted by that guy that was trying to show that he had horticultural knowledge just beacuse he worked on a farm for a while when he was younger was wrong. Him working on a farm means nothing to me about his knowledge base, what If he was just a harvester.

And no never said I was a professional gardener but I have read about 20 books on the subject, taken a years worth of bio engineering courses, have a grandfather that owns 25% of Ny's apple production, and family that has been growing weed since hippie times. I also have family that runs a vineyard as well. Oh yea, and I also worked on a farm when I was younger if that matters too. lmao


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

420circuit said:


> ..... Hey, Uncle Ben, do you have a FAQ for newbies that is dumbed down enough for the users on RIU? I seem to recall that you were a fan of Jack's, which I have become recently after trying in in hydro. Also, I won't be taking any more plants to flower without topping, so I do appreciate that tip.


Nah sah, you'll have to check out my threads and there are quite a few that address such stuff as the basics, pH, bloom foods, topping, etc. My Tweaks thread pretty sums it up and like I said, it doesn't stray from conventional horticulture.

The delivery of plant food and water is all about the same, you just have get your game down and support the plant, not push it. I see too many newbs that start with something not knowing what they're doing, blindly following the forum blind, become disappointed with the results and then jump off into some trendy hydro thing only to repeat their failures.

I find soil forgiving, cheap, and easy, but that's just me and yes I've been preaching the virtues of Jacks and Dyna-Gro for as long as there's been cannabis forums. 

Good luck,
UB


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Oh hell ya! I see Texas farmers all the time revegging corn.
> 
> Look, that was about as stupid as stupid gets. Corn does not reveg, it's an annual, pinhead. Grow some and find out for yourself. It grows from seed, stalks, tassels, ears fill out (if you're lucky) and then the plant dies a natural death.
> 
> ...


Guess you've never grown corn indoors or seen it grow where farmers get in 2-3 harvests annually. I said you can manipulate a plant to re-veg based on its climate and growing conditions. I even mentioned that the environmental factors are why the plant dies and does not continue to grow. You're saying exactly what I am saying just calling the point when the plant yields its fruit then drops its seeds the end of its natural life cycle, I agree. I just was saying that he was merely making an observation based on a farmers harvesting times and methods but that was one guy in a climate where he is forced to harvest before the winter months. 

I have seen it with my own eyes that if you pick a ripe pod of corn in the beginning of august, the plant will replace it with a new bud but won't become full grown due because the winter months come too soon.

No one's stretching anything, just showing that all the so called evidence that defoliation is a yield limiting technique indoors are bogus and irrelevant to the facts that are being presented


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> lmao....not!!!!! You dont know what your talking about. Maybe you have detasseling and hybridizing confused.


His corny reveg results came as a result of defoliation, but you already knew that.


----------



## Darth Budder (Aug 27, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> No one mentioned anything about life cycles, i just pointed out the fact that 80% of information that was posted by that guy that was trying to show that he had horticultural knowledge just beacuse he worked on a farm for a while when he was younger was wrong. Him working on a farm means nothing to me about his knowledge base, what If he was just a harvester.
> 
> And no never said I was a professional gardener but I have read about 20 books on the subject, taken a years worth of bio engineering courses, have a grandfather that owns 25% of Ny's apple production, and family that has been growing weed since hippie times. I also have family that runs a vineyard as well. Oh yea, and I also worked on a farm when I was younger if that matters too. lmao


well you should read some more then, because I believe you said, and I am paraphrasing here, that the only reason our plants die is because hack the shit out of them or the environmental conditions are wrong. whch is plain flat out incorrect. Don't harvest a plant and keep it under 12/12 fo a little and see what happens. 

I think I see why the mods are telling you to shut up and have respect, because you have no idea what you are talking about and this is supposed to be the best place to learn how to grow. 

And your my family are pro gardener a argument is as good as the I worked on a farm once... 

Read more, learn more, grow more, then speak.when even I can tell you are full of shit, there is a major issue.


----------



## Vincent VonBlown (Aug 27, 2013)

Yes plants can regenerate, the reason they don't mostly is temps and light cycle... As for defoliation, well like a lot of things, "The devil is in the details" (as they say)... I remember when we introduced the, Bubbler Deep Water Culture device. A lot of people started ripping plants that had been growing in soil out, and slapping them in a bubbler. Then insisting the bubbler didn't work when their plants died...


----------



## Vincent VonBlown (Aug 27, 2013)

The thing was, that roots produced in soil, are different then roots produced in DWC. So your only option was to scrap the plant, or wait some time for the roots to regrow into the water base environment if you decided to switch. It's a similar thing with defoliation, it has to be done in a correct manner or you are hurting yourself.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Guess you've never grown corn indoors or seen it grow where farmers get in 2-3 harvests annually. I said you can manipulate a plant to re-veg based on its climate and growing conditions.


No, never seen that but then again I keep my corn outdoors. Are you implying that corn is photoperiod dependent? Doesn't sound like it as you opine regarding climate conditions.



> I have seen it with my own eyes that if you pick a ripe pod of corn in the beginning of august, the plant will replace it with a new bud but won't become full grown due because the winter months come too soon.


A new bud, eh? What in the hell is a "new bud"? I've grown plenty of corn both old (Bantam, Silver Queen) and the newer super sweet (and excellent) corn like Mirai. It's an annual which upon harvest usually dies within a month, at least it does so in Texas. Doesn't matter how much water or food you put to it, it's toast once it bears. Corn can be planted in the spring for summer harvest and again in the early summer for fall harvest....depends on where you are. (So much for the photoperiod influence). It has to tassel, that's where pollen comes from. It won't tassel but once at least it never has for me or any one I know.

The late ears you may be referring to may be corn #3 which is always a runt and doesn't fill out. The finest quality ears are always #1 and perhaps #2 and if you get 3, that last one is usually no good. 



> No one's stretching anything, just showing that all the so called evidence that defoliation is a yield limiting technique indoors are bogus and irrelevant to the facts that are being presented


Yeah.....right. Like I said, you and SirTrollsAlot need to get a room. You're both feeding off each other's delusions....and for a so called schooled, experienced gardener, you sure got some strange botanical credos going on.

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> .... A lot of people started ripping plants that had been growing in soil out, and slapping them in a bubbler. Then insisting the bubbler didn't work when their plants died...


Yep, saw that years ago. I don't know what it is about this community that is so drawn to trends and gimmicks, which usually fail or are disappointing. You can have the stuff like DWC and SCROG too, wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Oh, then there was the craze with aeroponics. Man, is that kewl! (says little Johnny)  One guy produces a little bud and everyone jumps on the aeroponics bandwagon. Now it's coir........and the band plays on. I was growing orchids in coir 25 years ago before it became popular in pot forums. Hell, wasn't even known then except with a few of us orchid growers. Never really did like it. Held up for a while and then within a very short period of time broke down, becoming anaerobic.

BTW, I stated the same MO, see post #293 above. 

Learning the art of patience is a humbling experience for some.

UB


----------



## BarnBuster (Aug 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I've not referred anybody but I guess it's as easy as someone like me, a member, to ask admin to open up the gate to my referral.
> 
> Let me know if you want in and I'll PM admin.
> 
> UB


Yes, please....


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> No, never seen that but then again I keep my corn outdoors. Are you implying that corn is photoperiod dependent? Doesn't sound like it as you opine regarding climate conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


so you know exactly what I'm talkin about. Why are you always such an ass to me riling up all the noobs


----------



## genuity (Aug 27, 2013)

why are you people(ub) still here,go to that other place you are tryin to "recruit" people to...end of story.....must be only 5 members over at that spot.


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 27, 2013)

genuity said:


> why are you people(ub) still here,go to that other place you are tryin to "recruit" people to...end of story.....must be only 5 members over at that spot.


what do you mean "you people"? [video=youtube;xPxs0Qh72kY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPxs0Qh72kY[/video]


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 27, 2013)

Lmao hasn't anyone caught on to the fact that in has been directing RIU members to his own personal site on a number of threads. Isn't that grounds for deleting his account?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> so you know exactly what I'm talkin about. Why are you always such an ass to me riling up all the noobs


I'm always an ass to those who can't handle a question or get "undressed" by mean ol Uncle Ben. 

Corn "bud"?. No, I don't know what the hell you're talking about and the irony of it all is....it's obvious, neither do you. For the second time, feel free to explain yourself. I'm not the one that brought the "bud" thing on corn up.

UB


----------



## genuity (Aug 27, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Lmao hasn't anyone caught on to the fact that in has been directing RIU members to his own personal site on a number of threads. Isn't that grounds for deleting his account?


I would not go that far,but I sure as hell would not keep posting at a place,that seems to not be home to him.hell ben is the only person I have seen post anything about that other place..fanboy.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Lmao hasn't anyone caught on to the fact that in has been directing RIU members to his own personal site on a number of threads. Isn't that grounds for deleting his account?


You'd like nothing better than to censor me, eh? That's what cowards do.

And it's not my personal site, pinhead. It's just another cannabis forum like the hundreds out there in never never land. Most RIU members are posting at other sites. Big deal, it's no reflection on RIU. I post to regular (non cannabis) gardening sites and see members often referring folks to other sites where they can get the answer they're looking for.

Since you seem to wanna join the Thought Police, why don't you hunt down the hundreds of threads and links to IC Mag posted in RIU threads, which you're guilty of linking people to, as long as it fits your agenda - i.e. - defoliation threads.

Tell me, were you a hall monitor in primary school?

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

Sit, you got some friendly advice. Heed it. Back off, lurk, learn, take a deep breath and you'll have a nice home here. 



Darth Budder said:


> I think I see why the mods are telling you to shut up and have respect, because you have no idea what you are talking about and this is supposed to be the best place to learn how to grow.
> 
> ........Read more, learn more, grow more, *then speak*.when even I can tell you are full of shit, there is a major issue.


This is how I help people. My raw approach may not be to their liking, but my heart is in the right place:
https://www.rollitup.org/michigan-patients/708471-growers-beware-sunshine-mix-4-a-2.html


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You'd like nothing better than to censor me, eh? That's what cowards do.
> 
> And it's not my personal site, pinhead. It's just another cannabis forum like the hundreds out there in never never land.
> 
> ...


i get censored all day on this site, mainly when I debate with you. I'm just returning the favor. I know you know the name for the new offshoot of a corn pod that develops late or out of the traditional cycle. I can look it up if you really want me to but I know you already know

Edit: Also I never posted a link to any site ever on here. Internet "fact" means nothing to me


----------



## Blaze31 (Aug 27, 2013)

Well to get it back to the thread I was cutting off my fan leafs last year and they did good. Although this year I'm not doing it and their doing better. It helped reading this thread when I started this year. I just did it because they needed sun lol so I thought. This year I just tied them open a little and it's been a BIG change this year.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> ....I can look it up if you really want me to but I know you already know


Yeah, I'm always willing to learn but like I said, not me or any one I know growing corn has gotten a second harvest.

When I see a 50 acre field of corn and a combine harvesting the ears, within a month that corn patch is dead brown. It's over. 

You've danced around the photoperiod thingie, climate factors, perhaps it's some kind of cytokinin paste applied to a certain spot on the stalk? Wait! Don't tell me, ya apply a tsp. of da paste right behind yo ears and lo and behold, a miracle happens! A new corn bud is born! 

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

Blaze31 said:


> Well to get it back to the thread I was cutting off my fan leafs last year and they did good. Although this year I'm not doing it and their doing better. It helped reading this thread when I started this year. I just did it because they needed sun lol so I thought. This year I just tied them open a little and it's been a BIG change this year.


It's all about botany. I see some folks get so ansy because of a few damaged leaves or at least what they think are damaged. They still don't think in terms of plant processes.

This is my advice to them which basically is don't worry about it.

https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/711134-n-tox-foliar-help.html


----------



## Darth Budder (Aug 27, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Pot plants do not die after blooming. If you picked all your bud off and left the leaves, then gave the plant 2 weeks of 18/6 light then back to 12/12 the plant will begin to re-flower. The plants die cuz we hack them to shit or they are in an environment not suitable to continue growth.


So this is what you said, and this:
"because I believe you said, and I am paraphrasing here, that the only reason our plants die is because hack the shit out of them or the environmental conditions are wrong. whch is plain flat out incorrect." is what i said.

Twisted that like a m'fer eh? 

Its clear who the idiot is here, and I wont waste any more time on you. I, for one, hope the mods censor you permanently so this site can get back to being about cannabis growing, and not your personal vendetta against Ben. Did he bang your mom or something dude? I mean seriously...

DB


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 27, 2013)

Darth Budder said:


> Its clear who the idiot is here, and I wont waste any more time on you. I, for one, hope the mods censor you permanently so this site can get back to being about cannabis growing, and not your personal vendetta against Ben. Did he bang your mom or something dude? I mean seriously...
> 
> DB


I don't have a personal vendetta against UB, he knows that as well, I have a vendetta with anyone who posts up incorrect information or cites that because they have had so called experience or did their own personal study on something when a majority of the time they are not even testing anything in particular where they isolate any/all outside variables that could skew the results. 

Yea me and him are very abrasive when we discuss things but that is how me and him talk to everyone on here, don't feel special. I find it makes things more fun and interesting anyway and more thought goes into peoples posts and further discussion is brought on keeping a thread alive. Unfortunately, there are people that join in that have no clue what they are talking about and like to jump on the band wagon and curse and say some very disrespectuful things that take away from the overall debate. The mods try to regulate it but there is too much bs to deal with. Sometimes they get it right sometimes they don't.

Also, back to the corn thing. Duh you see corn die and turn brown after its harvested cuz its way more economical to run a combine team across a 100 acre field than hire a number of people to pick the corn individually. There is no point to have a plant that generates less than 50 cents a sq ft harvested any other way than it already is.


----------



## lilroach (Aug 27, 2013)

What I haven't seen on this thread is someone saying they actually tried Uncle Ben's suggestions and it doesn't work. It's always someone that prunes and defoliates that jumps on here and says Uncle Ben's doesn't work.

For the first six months of my growing, I listened to the hottie at the hydro store. I followed suggestions from youtube videos and pruned the crap out of my plants. I bought the high-priced snake-oils. 

I had plants with disappointing yields.

And I stopped listening to hotties and videos and started listening to Uncle Ben and Rockymtnman and magically my yields tripled. I have no yellowing of leaves, I have massive buds and colas, I have plants that are all of 30" tall giving me 3 ounces of great weed.

And the biggest thing about all this is that it's actually easier to grow amazing plants than it is to spend a shit-load of money and fuck with a plant's natural growing abilities.

If there's someone on the fence regarding listening to Uncle Ben.....I hope that this will entice you to actually give it a try.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Also, back to the corn thing. Duh you see corn die and turn brown after its harvested cuz its way more economical to run a combine team across a 100 acre field than hire a number of people to pick the corn individually.


Bullshit. You have never grown corn nor have you hand harvested corn from a pick-your-own farm. Still waiting on that proof. Come on Sit, where's dem corn buds?

Sit.....you're digging yourself deeper and deeper into the cesspool you've created. 

STFU!

View attachment 2793959


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 27, 2013)

lilroach said:


> What I haven't seen on this thread is someone saying they actually tried Uncle Ben's suggestions and it doesn't work. It's always someone that prunes and defoliates that jumps on here and says Uncle Ben's doesn't work.
> 
> For the first six months of my growing, I listened to the hottie at the hydro store. I followed suggestions from youtube videos and pruned the crap out of my plants. I bought the high-priced snake-oils.
> 
> ...



proceed with caution 
UB's methods can produce jungle weed !

when i was first confronted by the picture below, i did not actually realise the wheelbarrow that contained some Green vegetable matter was in fact marijuana
at first glance it appears to be a wheelbarrow of clipped shrubbery 







^^ something for you to aim for i guess LOL


----------



## Sativied (Aug 27, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Internet "fact" means nothing to me


Reminder to self for new sig of the dumbest fucking idiot I ever heard.... on the internet.

Ffs... a fact is fact, whether you get it by talking, internet, snailmail, or sucking on your mummies titties is irrelevant. So what you basically just admitted is that facts don't mean anything to you.... Well doh... of course you get censored. Heck fuckers like you who deliberately lie, refuse to consider facts, and spread your fucking nonsense should be kicked out of AMC back to TnT where you can troll all you want. Same as for the liar who keeps saying he posted proof...


----------



## Sativied (Aug 27, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> proceed with caution
> UB's methods can produce jungle weed !
> 
> when i was first confronted by the picture below, i did not actually realise the wheelbarrow that contained some Green vegetable matter was in fact marijuana
> ...


Sativas remember... you already tried that one in another thread. No points.


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Bullshit. You have never grown corn nor have you hand harvested corn from a pick-your-own farm. Still waiting on that proof. Come on Sit, where's dem corn buds?
> 
> Sit.....you're digging yourself deeper and deeper into the cesspool you've created.
> 
> ...


I never grew corn personally and you are right, but i have been on a farm in mid july and removed a corn pod from the plant and saw that the plant made an attempt to replace that pod with another one. It looked like a little baby corn by the time september came around. What is it you would like me to explain further or help you understand? I would be glad to look into it more or make a couple phone calls for some real information. Im always down for the exploration of further knowledge.


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 27, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> proceed with caution
> UB's methods can produce jungle weed !
> 
> when i was first confronted by the picture below, i did not actually realise the wheelbarrow that contained some Green vegetable matter was in fact marijuana
> ...



LMAO please dont bring this back that thread had me cracking up so bad last time haha.


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 27, 2013)

Sativied said:


> Reminder to self for new sig of the dumbest fucking idiot I ever heard.... on the internet.
> 
> Ffs... a fact is fact, whether you get it by talking, internet, snailmail, or sucking on your mummies titties is irrelevant. So what you basically just admitted is that facts don't mean anything to you.... Well doh... of course you get censored. Heck fuckers like you who deliberately lie, refuse to consider facts, and spread your fucking nonsense should be kicked out of AMC back to TnT where you can troll all you want. Same as for the liar who keeps saying he posted proof...


He's not a liar, if you follow this thread you can see how many broken conversations there are where someone is responding to a post that isn't there anymore. Also, anyone who has ever written a paper before or done some sort of research project or study knows that there are only a few types of internet sites that are even deemed credible by any educational institute. So...SHAHAAadup bro


----------



## lilroach (Aug 27, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> proceed with caution
> UB's methods can produce jungle weed !
> 
> when i was first confronted by the picture below, i did not actually realise the wheelbarrow that contained some Green vegetable matter was in fact marijuana
> ...



OK.......it's a wheelbarrow of weed. And your point is?

If you are trying to say that UB's growing technique is responsible for this, it would be better proof if you posted a picture before it was hacked down. I see no proof that this plant has anything to do with Uncle Ben....other than the fact that the leaves look healthy.


----------



## lilroach (Aug 27, 2013)

I just don't get it.

Uncle Ben acknowledges there's many ways of growing weed, and there's no one "right way" of doing it. I think we all know this. He takes his time to share what works for him, and if I am an example of it working or not, his techniques work for me.

What I don't get is the blasting from "trolls" and such about his growing opinions about how he grows weed. If you don't like his techniques....there's a zillion other threads just for you.

Could Uncle Ben be more diplomatic.....you betcha.....and I suspect that at one time he was more even-handed....but even the most even-tempered person can only take so many punches before punching back.


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 27, 2013)

View attachment 2794023

UB on the farm harvesting his crops. haha


----------



## Sativied (Aug 27, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> *Also, anyone who has ever written a paper before or done some sort of research project or study knows that there are only a few types of internet sites that are even deemed credible by any educational institute*. So...SHAHAAadup bro


Oh boy oh boy... you are so barking up against the wrong tree here. I research and write for a living  



Situation420 said:


> are even deemed credible by any educational institute


Guess who pays my bills...  And does your dumbass realize that those educational institutes themselves publish facts on the internet too.... 

So, that didn't work out well did it, and you are talking out of your ass regardless. There are way more than a 'few' sites with credible and authoritative info. I use and add to it frequently. You have proven that you are not worthy discussing any facts or research because you don't believe in internet facts. Like I said, the medium is irrelevant. 1+1=2 whether you write it on a paper or post it on a pokemon forum. That's the beauty of facts, no matter what nonsense you make up, facts remain facts. 

Obviously you are not able to determine what information is credible, reliable, timely, accurate, complete, relevant, as the internet is full with facts that could have opened your eyes if you wanted it to... As I told defoliators on my side of the pond, the whole art of getting info from the internet is being able to separate the facts from the fiction. From fiction based on nonsense claims and wishful thinking like you and a few others who insist on using gimmicks and stupidity to (try to..) get more yield.


----------



## Pinworm (Aug 27, 2013)

Call the burn unit.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> proceed with caution
> UB's methods can produce jungle weed !
> 
> when i was first confronted by the picture below, i did not actually realise the wheelbarrow that contained some Green vegetable matter was in fact marijuana
> ...


Sativa, pinhead.

FAIL


----------



## TonightYou (Aug 27, 2013)

UB, since this thread has your attention, to a meaningful question. 

I've been battling broad mites. Damn dope eating insects! Now I went 4 weeks free after doing a massive cleaning which I usually undertake regularly. Now I've had good luck ridding them with some no pest hot strip, and a regular spraying of neem oil/soap mixture. Think the strip is old now but I'm sure there is a better way. So after a daily inspection last night I found on only one plant the dreaded bastards (only a handful no visible damage to leaves yet).

Healthy leaves and roots, healthy harvest. So the bastards have to go. I don't want to mess with something like avid or another uptake posion. Do you happen to either have some good suggestions or solutions. Growing in a tent. 400 hps. Temps between 75-85 (low/high both lights on/off) overall. Humidity between 55-70

As always I apreciate your input and yes I have other plants (basil, herbs, and a whole lotta peppers) in my apartment but I'm religious with keeping people, the cat, and myself (until a scrub/clothing change) out of the garden.


----------



## TonightYou (Aug 27, 2013)

Wanted to add been lax on the spraying since they disappeared. Been good in keeping the garden clean.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

lilroach said:


> ....Could Uncle Ben be more diplomatic.....you betcha.....and I suspect that at one time he was more even-handed....but even the most even-tempered person can only take so many punches before punching back.


You can't be diplomatic with many here and conventional gardening is a foreign concept to them. They want respect but act like little jerks. You trolls want respect from me? You've got to earn it.

Speaking of foreign, pinheads remind of the way you can only deal with Islamic terrorist pigs - no diplomacy, just take them out every chance you get.

It's about time RIU mods launch some drones on these guys. By setting limits, boundaries, only admin and the mods can set the standards of what this place represents.

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

TonightYou said:


> UB, since this thread has your attention, to a meaningful question.
> 
> I've been battling broad mites. Damn dope eating insects! Now I went 4 weeks free after doing a massive cleaning which I usually undertake regularly. Now I've had good luck ridding them with some no pest hot strip, and a regular spraying of neem oil/soap mixture. Think the strip is old now but I'm sure there is a better way. So after a daily inspection last night I found on only one plant the dreaded bastards (only a handful no visible damage to leaves yet).
> 
> ...


Forbid 4F. It will control whiteflies and about 8 species of mites. It is not a toxin, it is a silver bullet. I bought 8 oz from an Ebay seller and it set me back $207. You can get smaller amounts from Ebay. I'd recommend getting the larger size and splitting with others. 1/8 tsp./gallon! No more than 1/4 tsp/gallon. 

You must add a surfactant to your sprays for any of these products to be successful. If you stick with neem you have to use it often to get every new colony that hatches. Pest control is all about timing which means you MUST know and understand the pest's life cycle or you will lose control of the situation. 

FWIW, I had the worst outbreak of mites, ever. I can usually control them on my tomatoes with a daily blast of water to the leaves, but they finally beat me. Got into my melons, a first and I've been gardening for decades. Nailed my tropicals too.

Here's all the info you need:
http://www.chattanoogarose.org/spider mites.htm

Good luck,
UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

TonightYou said:


> Wanted to add been lax on the spraying since they disappeared. Been good in keeping the garden clean.


That's what happened to me on my tropicals. By the time I noticed something was wrong, the outbreak was huge. I lost almost every leaf on every dear tree I had worked years on first grafting to rootstock I raised from scratch and caring for over the years which included sourcing really high quality scion wood from a university. Heartbreaking to say the least. They're doing fine now and it will be real damn soon when the margaritas flow again.  Mexican key lime tree is loaded with fruit about to turn yellow!

We need to really check out the underside of our leaves, at least once a week. If you see any indication of yellow leaf mottling, no matter how limited it might be - check. Mites suck the (green) chlorophyll by piercing the bottom of the leaves which causes the yellow, necrotic spots. That is an easy "heads up" fer ya.

UB


----------



## TonightYou (Aug 27, 2013)

Thanks UB. Seen that recommended before and will take your advice on this one. Haven't steered me wrong yet, in fact only righted my ship in the past. I'm familiar with the life cycle of these damn bastards and seemed sucessful the first go around. 
Just don't want to lose any more plants. Off to the link!


----------



## TonightYou (Aug 27, 2013)

See I haven't seen those dreaded spots yet. But caught them on a spot check with 30x loupe, which of course made me go through every plant leaf to see how many I could find. You are right about keeping an eye out regularly. Ounce of prevention.....


----------



## Sativied (Aug 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's about time RIU mods launch some drones on these guys. By setting limits, boundaries, only admin and the mods can set the standards of what this place represents.


As much as I like the lack of moderation some times I have to agree with you on that, especially for AMC. As I mentioned more or less my pompous self didn't like the other thread being closed... I can see why now. Reminds me of a thread about neo-nazis and a group they had/have here at RIU, some guy mentioned Voltair's quote... as if there are new 'valid' arguments any neo nazi could make that would justify allowing them to discuss their hate against... Well, not that different from people trolling up this thread without valid arguments.

Oh wait... that some guy is the mod of AMC... woops... (edit: meant no disrespect there CW..., made that clear in that topic I hope).

Speaking of valid arguments. The straw man was just an example of many fallacies that can show so easily when someone is talking out of his ass. A few examples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies Maybe a bit too much but in particular people should read the informal fallacies, let me copy a few *to easily show it's worth reading*. Before that, let me add that in dutch the synonym for fallacy is 'thinkerror'

*Argument from ignorance *(appeal to ignorance, argumentum ad ignorantiam) &#8211; assuming that a claim is true (or false) because it has not been proven false (true) or cannot be proven false (true).
Argument from (personal) incredulity (divine fallacy, appeal to common sense) &#8211; I cannot imagine how this could be true, therefore it must be false.
*Argument from repetition* (argumentum ad nauseam) &#8211; signifies that it has been discussed extensively until nobody cares to discuss it anymore.
*(shifting the) Burden of proof* (see &#8211; onus probandi) &#8211; I need not prove my claim, you must prove it is false.
* Circular reasoning* &#8211; when the reasoner begins with what he or she is trying to end up with; sometimes called assuming the conclusion.
*Circular cause and consequence* &#8211; where the consequence of the phenomenon is claimed to be its root cause.
Continuum fallacy (fallacy of the beard, line-drawing fallacy, sorites fallacy, fallacy of the heap, bald man fallacy) &#8211; improperly rejecting a claim for being imprecise.[16]
*Correlative-based fallacies
Correlation proves causation* (cum hoc ergo propter hoc) &#8211; a faulty assumption that correlation between two variables implies that one causes the other.[17]

Fuck... I could copy and paste the entire list and it would all apply... instead I'll grab the last one on the list:

*Personal Attacks ("Argumentum ad Hominem")- the evasion of the actual topic by directing the attack at your opponent*

Socrates - "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."
Spock: "Reverting to name-calling *suggests* you are defensive and therefore find my objections valid.

For the dumbasses that based on the latter conclude that anyone namecalling finds the objections valid I will add that that usually only applies if the namecalling comes without any valid arguments...

Warning: once you learned the above fallacies (in the link that is) you'll never believe a politician again.  Upside is you'll smell bullshit a mile away.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

TonightYou said:


> See I haven't seen those dreaded spots yet. But caught them on a spot check with 30x loupe, which of course made me go through every plant leaf to see how many I could find. You are right about keeping an eye out regularly. Ounce of prevention.....


And I bought mine from a hydro dealer, hah! Third one down. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p3872.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.XForbid+4F+miticide&_nkw=Forbid+4F+miticide&_sacat=0&_from=R40


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

Sativied said:


> As much as I like the lack of moderation some times I have to agree with you on that, especially for AMC. As I mentioned more or less my pompous self didn't like the other thread being closed... I can see why now. Reminds me of a thread about neo-nazis and a group they had/have here at RIU, some guy mentioned Voltair's quote... as if there are new 'valid' arguments any neo nazi could make that would justify allowing them to discuss their hate against... Well, not that different from people trolling up this thread without valid arguments.
> 
> Oh wait... that some guy is the mod of AMC... woops... (edit: meant no disrespect there CW..., made that clear in that topic I hope).
> 
> ...


You nailed it......


----------



## TonightYou (Aug 27, 2013)

Love your citations dude, or good sir. Half of people talk out of their ass and I really appreciate studies, citations and what not compared to claims, advertisements or fucking anecdotal input. Its the academic in me.

Order is placed and in the mean time I will just keep an eye out, do an entire overhaul cleaning tonight after work and spray some neem/soapy water again before lights on. 

Hats off to ya UB


----------



## lilroach (Aug 27, 2013)

I believe this will be my last words on this thread.....

In regards to certain people having their posts removed from a thread......I'm sure it happens. I'm also sure that there are politics involved. I'm sure that Uncle Ben gets a pass once in awhile.

I am a moderator on a totally different website, and the rule I have on there is "Don't make it personal". When someone bashes someone just to bash someone....they get warned, and if they persist, they get booted. I think the moderators on here are fair and let more shit go on than I would.


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Sativa, pinhead.
> 
> FAIL


No Sir that is jungle weed, it would seem you do not know any better 

i have to remind myself you're the imbecile who claims the only true SATIVA is held by the Flying Dutchman

what i found equally amusing was UB in all his wisdom left the camera information in his wheelbarrow picture

The 2.1 Mpixel Olympus C-2040Z







looks heavy, bet it was top of the range in its day

UB why do you not post pictures of plants you have grown more recently ?


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 27, 2013)

Sativied said:


> Sativas remember... you already tried that one in another thread. No points.


I must remind you, the wheelbarrow picture was originally posted by UB in an effort to promote his own growing prowess
in the opinion of myself and many others he failed miserably
you are entitled to your opinion using "sativa" as an excuse does not cut it for me

some of my favorite excuses at the moment
i have seen folk on this forum claim that burnt plants are burnt because of "wind burn" 
i have also seen folk claim that their sick plants look sick because they are stress testing them
now we can add to this list, my weed looks jungle "cos" its a "sativa" lol


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 27, 2013)

12-1 gas lantern technique has no basis in botany-Uncle Ben

claims to have invented a topping technique that redistributes auxins from a main branch to lower branches through topping . . .. 1000's of years of agriculture and UB invented it

oh ya all products marketed to grow cannabis(a plant like any others ) are snake oils(except the products i promote markets for plants)-UB


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 27, 2013)

Sativied said:


> As much as I like the lack of moderation some times I have to agree with you on that, especially for AMC. As I mentioned more or less my pompous self didn't like the other thread being closed... I can see why now. Reminds me of a thread about neo-nazis and a group they had/have here at RIU, some guy mentioned Voltair's quote... as if there are new 'valid' arguments any neo nazi could make that would justify allowing them to discuss their hate against... Well, not that different from people trolling up this thread without valid arguments.
> 
> Oh wait... that some guy is the mod of AMC... woops... (edit: meant no disrespect there CW..., made that clear in that topic I hope).
> 
> ...


It seems to me that you've just described several of UB's debate tactics. He is generally on the offense in these debates not the defense.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yep, saw that years ago. I don't know what it is about this community that is so drawn to trends and gimmicks, which usually fail or are disappointing. You can have the stuff like DWC and SCROG too, wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Oh, then there was the craze with aeroponics. Man, is that kewl! (says little Johnny)  One guy produces a little bud and everyone jumps on the aeroponics bandwagon. Now it's coir........and the band plays on. I was growing orchids in coir 25 years ago before it became popular in pot forums. Hell, wasn't even known then except with a few of us orchid growers. Never really did like it. Held up for a while and then within a very short period of time broke down, becoming anaerobic.
> 
> BTW, I stated the same MO, see post #293 above.
> 
> ...


Uh oh... I was actually just finishing building my first screen. Could I have your insight on why scrog isn't your thing? What are the negatives to trellising in that way?


----------



## 420circuit (Aug 27, 2013)

This little system used Jack's in a hydro/aero rig popularized by Stink Bud. Did not trim leaves. Posting this to share my results and prove the point that listening to good advice from people with more experience can be rewarding.
View attachment 2794500600 watts, Northern Lights from Seedsman Seeds and a variety of other strains, mostly Barney's Farm. There has not been an insect in this room since I built it about a year ago, except for a spider that walked in when I left the door open. The adjacent room now has a no pest strip and the spider met an untimely demise. Leaves help plants grow. Seems simple enough.
View attachment 2794520This is White Widow from Seedsman also grown hydro with Jacks. Instead of arguing hypotheticals why not review facts and collaborate to seek out the best and most efficient path?


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 27, 2013)

the best most efficient path is often conditional to many things . . a set rules generalizing what to do may not apply

what works best in your environment for your strains and goals is what is best, and we can only learn what works best for us by looking into as many techniques as possible . .

this is not possible if you have a high school debate team outlook about what you knwo or what you think you know

\the only constant in life is CHANGE better get used to someone else knowing something you dont and to learn 

when people are so obtuse to disreguard anyone else's experience on arbitrary principles . . best stand back objectively and ask yourself why


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Now it's coir........and the band plays on. I was growing orchids in coir 25 years ago before it became popular in pot forums. Hell, wasn't even known then except with a few of us orchid growers. Never really did like it. Held up for a while and then within a very short period of time broke down, becoming anaerobic.


Coco is great when used in combo with perlite and I like to add peat moss too. I agree that used alone it can break down and become anaerobic, but that's not reason to dismiss it altogether. I also wouldn't grow in pure peat moss or pure perlite, but the three in combination make up a great medium. Add a bit of lime and worm castings and you're really in business! I also like to add granulated humic acids, guanos, alfalfa meal, and kelp meal to my mix to make up a complete "soil".


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 27, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> the best most efficient path is often conditional to many things . . a set rules generalizing what to do may not apply
> 
> what works best in your environment for your strains and goals is what is best, and we can only learn what works best for us by looking into as many techniques as possible . .
> 
> ...


True. I still just don't get though why you guys are in THIS thread. The defoliation thread was understandable and what should happen when there's a topic of controversy. But this thread was a tribute to UB amd leaves. Nothing else. You guys followed him all the way to a thread having nothing to do with anything but that man and foliage to attack him and people that for their own reasons take a liking to him. Isn't that exactly what you seem to be complaining about? Not letting others choose what they decide to go with without being condescended?


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 27, 2013)

Not even trying to argue or go back and forth. I mean no disrespect to anyone. I just really don't understand. I'm not ever going into a thread dedicated to someone I don't like. Not even to prove a point or to rain on their parade


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 27, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> No Sir that is jungle weed, it would seem you do not know any better
> 
> i have to remind myself you're the imbecile who claims the only true SATIVA is held by the Flying Dutchman
> 
> ...


A bit off topic but since it was brought up, what strains are good sativa strains and where could I get them? No one has given me any decent answers save for kitehigh once


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 27, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Also, back to the corn thing. Duh you see corn die and turn brown after its harvested cuz its way more economical to run a combine team across a 100 acre field than hire a number of people to pick the corn individually. There is no point to have a plant that generates less than 50 cents a sq ft harvested any other way than it already is.


Um the corn is dead and brown before harvest. Thats us farmers drying and curing in the field. If you see green corn being harvested then its one of two things:

1. Seed corn which is still picked on the ear so the drying process can be controlled to help insure a good germ set. Then its shelled and bagged.
2. The entire plant is harvested and ground up. To be put in a bunker as silage. You know fodder for feed........


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 27, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Um the corn is dead and brown before harvest. Thats us farmers drying and curing in the field. If you see green corn being harvested then its one of two things:
> 
> 1. Seed corn which is still picked on the ear so the drying process can be controlled to help insure a good germ set. Then its shelled and bagged.
> 2. The entire plant is harvested and ground up. To be put in a bunker as silage. You know fodder for feed........


 Just from this one post, I can tell you have a far superior knowledge of corn. Sit. should just give up now.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 27, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Its only August but Sit420 is already the clear winner of "Troll of the Year' here at RIU. Lets all give the little fuck a big round of applause.
> 
> Edit: and lets start a collection to buy our little buddy a new helmet....


odd.. it seems to me that 90% of your posts here are spent berating anyone who disagrees with uncle ben. who's the real troll of the year?


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 27, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> odd.. it seems to me that 90% of your posts here are spent berating anyone who disagrees with uncle ben. who's the real troll of the year?


Me of course...but at the same time I am the grower of the year. Gotta feed all you little snot nosed brats ya know....


edit: please share your data on your 90% stat. you can be third place troll of the year.


----------



## Sativied (Aug 27, 2013)

I'm almost speechless... I will never understand why some people _choose_ to remain ignorant.

"Highschool debate outlook"... you don't even come close to _that_ Sam Straw Well.


I could continue to point out the fallacies in your posts again and again (and in UB's and in my own...), but obviously some of you above simply don't care about logic and whether something is 'true' or 'valid'.

_"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance" - Laurence J. Peter_

Have fun making up as many techniques and beliefs as possible. I rather go with the facts.

Starting to get annoyed, might get the urge to start namecalling... and some might then think that's because I felt like I had lost a debate based on valid arguments... instead of your your your... nah, nvm, I'm done.



Uncle Ben said:


> Why is it that some get my points and some don't...


_"Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone." - Ayn Rand_


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 27, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> Just from this one post, I can tell you have a far superior knowledge of corn. Sit. should just give up now.


I forgot the third option. Sweet corn. Now that, just like our cannabis, needs to be picked at the peak peak of ripeness....


----------



## gudkarma (Aug 27, 2013)

come on. ayn rand. eveverybody knows. nothing more than a cock loving day dreaming misanthrope of a whore. 

a veritable dildo loving mind fuck fraud.

3rd eye = 3 holes


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 27, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> please share your data on your 90% stat. you can be third place troll of the year.


Just look at your own posts. 90% is an estimate. I could be a bit off. Maybe it's only 83%. I don't see how I can get third place, when chuck and you already tied for second. Doesn't it skip right to 4th?


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 27, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> this site and its content is RIU domain . . . .i am a member . . . .and no one is above reproach . . how one re react to others dis-beliefs and opinions is on the individual(you, me whomever- singularly), not those who interact with us . . . . .. UB's karma for his lies and his attitude
> 
> see how long he has been a member long time to be a fuck tard


So in other words, your reply was "it's a free country!"


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 27, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Just look at your own posts. 90% is an estimate. I could be a bit off. Maybe it's only 83%. I don't see how I can get third place, when chuck and you already tied for second. Doesn't it skip right to 4th?


 Can't deny the results, if more than doubling my yields and cutting costs in half makes me a ub suckup, I'm gonna go ahead and own it. I have learned more from UB on how to grow and more from you on how to be a troll. so i got all bases covered. thanks


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> Uh oh... I was actually just finishing building my first screen. Could I have your insight on why scrog isn't your thing? What are the negatives to trellising in that way?


Maintenance.


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 27, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> So in other words, your reply was "it's a free country!"


I didn't know this web site was a country but if you mean im free to post then yes, I am

my interaction with UB is entirely based on how UB treats people , myself included . . i wasnt a nut hugger and he was pretty much an ass IMO


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> True. I still just don't get though why you guys are in THIS thread. The defoliation thread was understandable and what should happen when there's a topic of controversy. But this thread was a tribute to UB amd leaves. Nothing else. You guys followed him all the way to a thread having nothing to do with anything but that man and foliage to attack him and people that for their own reasons take a liking to him. Isn't that exactly what you seem to be complaining about? Not letting others choose what they decide to go with without being condescended?


Understand that these trolls are not important. RIU has set the standards of this site. 

But, it's an issue of power, which I have over them. I own these trolls. They can not let it go.

UB


----------



## thenotsoesoteric (Aug 27, 2013)

gudkarma said:


> come on. ayn rand. eveverybody knows. nothing more than a cock loving day dreaming misanthrope of a whore.
> 
> a veritable dildo loving mind fuck fraud.
> 
> 3rd eye = 3 holes


I'm with you. Funk Ayn Rand. Capitalist pseudo female. She had big hairies. Three holes, do I hear a shocker?


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 27, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> I didn't know this web site was a country but if you mean im free to post then yes, I am
> 
> my interaction with UB is entirely based on how UB treats people , myself included . . i wasnt a nut hugger and he was pretty much an ass IMO


First off you obviously know I wasn't calling this site a country and meant that you are free to speak your mind. 

And second, why are seeming defensive? I mever said your response was wrong or had a problem with it.

I wonder if you guys all even smoke? (Meaning EVERYONE) weed never made me as angry and aggressive as you guys. (Not just you sam. The community as a whole)

Anyways, back to the topic of leaves... I've been able to keep my plants looking healthy for the most part but I decided to go vertical for this grow. I have 1 400 hung between my plants. Like I said the plants are for the most part green and healthy looking but in back of the plants furthest away from the lights leaves will wither and die off... is this some sort of reaction to insufficient light?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 27, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> I've been able to keep my plants looking healthy for the most part but I decided to go vertical for this grow. I have 1 400 hung between my plants. Like I said the plants are for the most part green and healthy looking but in back of the plants furthest away from the lights leaves will wither and die off... is this some sort of reaction to insufficient light?


That conclusion would not fall in line with Uncle Ben's doctrine.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 27, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> That conclusion would not fall in line with Uncle Ben's doctrine.


What doctrine would that be? Do you have one of your own?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> what works best in your environment for your strains and goals is what is best, and we can only learn what works best for us by looking into as many techniques as possible . .


Hey ShamWow, you really got it going on!









> Nutes-
> Canna A/B, Cannaszym, Rizotonic, Bio Boost, Canna Boost, PK 13/14, H&G Drip clean


How much did you spend on that popcorn producing crap?

https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog13714-gs-lavender-x-hd-grow.html#comment26694

Hmmmmmmmm, must have been a bad batch of Canna boost....oh well. 

UB


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 27, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> What doctrine would that be? Do you have one of your own?


The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. I don't believe in doctrines.


----------



## patlpp (Aug 27, 2013)

coco - High p Dyna - 







Too leggy for me. No more Dyna for me but purdy with that UB 4 cola auxin jibberdaddy thingy.
Wait , I'm supposed to be slamming UB. 

UB: CoCo has come a long way. This puppy was grown in 3rd gen coco/plite. 10$ a key


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Hey ShamWow, you really got it going on!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




in UB world one picture says it all . . 

8 weeks later

View attachment 2794708 

a plant i made by accident , ran from seed . . . . second time growing from seed

this is how i do, with my bad batches of canna

to the floor







oh and unlike you i change my recipe over time . . im not so egotistical to believe that a good thing cant be improved


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 27, 2013)

wanna talk vert Db? been there, might go back













UB got nothing for you . . .but others will


----------



## 420circuit (Aug 27, 2013)

"fuck tard" Hope you don't mind if I use that. Great use of the language.


----------



## lilroach (Aug 27, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> 12-1 gas lantern technique has no basis in botany-Uncle Ben
> 
> claims to have invented a topping technique that redistributes auxins from a main branch to lower branches through topping . . .. 1000's of years of agriculture and UB invented it
> 
> oh ya all products marketed to grow cannabis(a plant like any others ) are snake oils(except the products i promote markets for plants)-UB



I decided to check out your grow journals: https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/356687-samwell-seed-well.html

I won't make this personal........but you really really really should consider Uncle Ben's suggestions.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 27, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> in UB world one picture says it all . .
> 
> 8 weeks later
> 
> ...


What strain was that?


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 27, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> wanna talk vert Db? been there, might go back
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My problem with vert has been plant lean. I either had to rotate them or eventually had to stake them up


----------



## Rocketman64 (Aug 27, 2013)

This thread has really disappointed me. I was hoping to get a few other members to acknowledge the fact that leaves mean the world to their plants. I was hoping for a couple posts discussing things they've tried or learned that helped them keep their leaves healthy. Maybe a few pics other members have taken of their leaves because there was something different about them would have been nice. Instead, I get 30+ pages of the most repulsive display of a penis-measuring contest that's ever been witnessed by this old hippy. The mods could remove 34 pages of this thread and we will have lost nothing. It sure seems like there's no shortage of people around here that could use a couple good bong hits before hitting the 'post' button. C'mon people, can we just cut the bullshit? If you grow your plants without leaves- fine! Go away! This thread is not for you! Go find somewhere else to spread your hate and combativeness.


----------



## Rocketman64 (Aug 27, 2013)

420circuit said:


> "fuck tard" Hope you don't mind if I use that. Great use of the language.


Fuck Tard is a good one...... I heard 'Fucktwit' the other day, it falls in the same category of Great Use of the Language. You have my permission...


----------



## lilroach (Aug 27, 2013)

Here's some pics of what Uncle Ben has done for me:




















I would have more pictures....but you see.....I'm a relative newbie and had wasted my time my first couple of grows using some of the crap from the hydro store. 

These plants are directly attributed to the info I got from Uncle Ben.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 27, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> A bit off topic but since it was brought up, what strains are good sativa strains and where could I get them? No one has given me any decent answers save for kitehigh once


This was the answer I gave... I didn't think it was too bad... you might of missed it. If you didn't like the answer though, no big deal..
It's hard to answer because with Sativas it all depends basically on how long of a flower period you want to deal with. With that number, I could prbly give a better answer.


*Copied, pages back*

*Dboi... I've grown some pretty good sativa leaning hybrids. There are many to choose from.

Short answer: Silver Fields or Sugar Punch - Sannies Shop

Long answer: The question to ask is... how many weeks of flowering are you willing to take on? There are options at any length.

I like to use seedfinder to check lineage and see what I am getting. You can just google "plant name seedfinder" example: Northern Lights seedfiner. click the link that is seedfinder.xxx.ccc it will break down the lineage for you. 

There are lots of bad choices in the seed biz... waaay more than good choices. I suggest coming up with your choice and posting here. Someone will let you know if it is a bad choice. Some seedbanks are scams or known to be unreliable... some breeders are known to put out junk or problematic genetics. Many breeders are coming out with little rep and the verdict is still out on them. I like to stick with the proven breeders, but, avoid the old breeders who with an established name have little to prove.

Here are a few to look into...

7-9 wks - most any of the C99 plants. Apollo 11. Others, I forget. If you have the coin try out Dr Greenthumbs c99. His seeds are a little more expensive but I've been very impressed with the results from Dr GT. c99 is speedy. Speedy effects and speedy flowering. The fastest flowering sativa leaning plant you will find. Easy to grow. 

10-11 wks - Silver Fields, Killing Fields - From SanniesShop. Great stuff... really great. I like Sannie too.. You can get on his forum (google it) and see people growing his seeds. There are a handful of active VERY good growers over there with REALLY nice cameras. Great people too. Sannie seems like very good people. 

12-13 wks - Many Haze varieties... with killing fields and sugar punch, you'll prbly find one plant in the pack that takes 12-13 wks... Having haze in the name doesn't make it what I would call "haze". You can get hazes that flower in as little as 10 wks and beyond 14. 

14+ - Jamaican Lambsbread - USC seeds on Sanniesshop.com... Never grown it but have smoked Columbian Gold and Lambsbread. This is a commitment, and a difficult one at that.. If you have not had 4-5 grows under your belt I would suggest putting a hold on this one. With 4-5 grows under your belt, be prepared for a challenge. And, lots of vertical space.

I would recommend Sannies Shop. I've grown the killing fields and love it. I've heard the Sugar punch is even better.. I believe it is basically Killing fields x Super silver haze. Those are two of my favorite sativa leaning plants.. I could only imagine (and have heard) the smoke is fantastic. If you made me give you one choice... I would say Sugar Punch. Super silver haze is fucking GREAT... but it's dependent on who you get it from. I got mine from Beanhoarder... his packs can be hit or miss. I searched through many plants to find my 2 keepers. With Sugar Punch... you can trust Sannies work... you get killing fields, which is fucking GREAT.. and, you get a good Super Silver Haze which is fucking great... I would go with that.

A common sativa that new folks seem to be pulled towards is Kali Mist. I would not recommend this pack. A partner grew it out and was quite disappointed. Also, I have seen many bad reviews... apparently, Kali Mist was reworked some years ago to make for shorter flower times and easier growth. The result was a plant that has little sativa-like effects. *


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 27, 2013)

patlpp said:


> coco - High p Dyna -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you say that you really gave your best attempt at this?
If so... i'm pretty disappointed in you pat... i remembered you being a pretty good grower about a year or 2 ago.

It's not Dyna man.. I produced killer crops with Dyna while I was using it. From the first to the last.
I'll return at some point... just playing around with new stuff.

I actually use a small amount of Dyna still...Early in flower... it just performs. I'll do 2 or 3 dyna feeds per grow because I know that anytime I have a problem, I just feed with a good ph balanced Dyna solution and it fixes it every time. I always water in my transplants for flower (2/3 gal to 5 gal grow bag.. coco coir) with Dyna ,because it's just a damn good feed.

My very first 1 LB per 600 hps grow came from a Dyna Grow run. Everything was there. Dense, yield, taste and smell were no different then running Canna or H&G.

One thing I can say about Dyna that is not glowing.... Although I'm pretty sure it was a grower error (not sure what though, my guess, overfed using at 1/2 strength, never recovered quite right) .. I did not do well with Dyna Grow when growing haze and some other sativa varieties...

Both my SSH plants did TERRIBLE with Dyna Grow... my buddy who grows my genetics too said the same thing.. 9 wk Super Silver Haze did not perform using Dyna. My 14 wk SSH also did poorly. Sannies Killing Fields didn't do as poorly as SSH's did, but, not well.

I never used the high P food all the way through though. It seems like common knowledge around RIU that it's not a good nute to use exclusively during flower. Someone as experienced with nutes as yourself, and active on RIU as yourself... doing a whole Dyna Bloom grow makes me suspect a strong bias, with no real intentions to succeed in the first place. Just my opinion.


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 27, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Um the corn is dead and brown before harvest. Thats us farmers drying and curing in the field. If you see green corn being harvested then its one of two things:
> 
> 1. Seed corn which is still picked on the ear so the drying process can be controlled to help insure a good germ set. Then its shelled and bagged.
> 2. The entire plant is harvested and ground up. To be put in a bunker as silage. You know fodder for feed........


LMAO ok bro, not true, and it also depends on what the corn is being grown for and what type of corn is being grown. Did you forget the obvious point that a 6 year old can point out that the corn you buy at the supermarket is still green. It is harvested that way so it ripens on the way to market ensuring quality and freshness is maintained and the plant cells are still continuing their basic metabolic cycles so by the time it hits shelves it is at its peak ripeness. 

Or were you unable to find that in your google search as usual. C'mon alex you're a google whore and copy and paste your arguments right from the internet word for word and I've cited you on this before. Just let it go bro and don't chime in when you don't have any knowledge on a subject, why do you think no one liked your post? Because it is blatantly wrong.


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 28, 2013)

Sativied said:


> Oh boy oh boy... you are so barking up against the wrong tree here. I research and write for a living
> 
> Guess who pays my bills...  And does your dumbass realize that those educational institutes themselves publish facts on the internet too....
> 
> ...


When you cite a fact that is not your own knowledge then you have to provide the sources when using that in your supporting argument. Also, out of the trillions of web pages, less than .25% are .gov, .org, .edu, or online scholarly journals or libraries etc.. I don't know about you but less than .25% is a 'few' sites compared to the overall scope of the internet.

So what was your point again?


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

lilroach said:


> I decided to check out your grow journals: https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/356687-samwell-seed-well.html
> 
> I won't make this personal........but you really really really should consider Uncle Ben's suggestions.



cool story . . . . .those journals pretty much sum it all up . . where are UB's journals ? . .

and where are your journals . . . .


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

lilroach said:


> Here's some pics of what Uncle Ben has done for me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


look like small yield

heres a closet i filled from a2600 watt grow back before i switched to vert
 
heres a topped out super silver pinnaple






please go on about what i need to learn from UB, the plant above we me actually proving to myself that i know how to train . . . .after UB went on with his none sense and berated me for not being his next bukkaka lover, so i did this in a journal on another site, apart of a grow contest, 5 gallon pot 230 grams . . .what exactly is UB doing for you . .

the pic above of the closet is 3.25 pounds i pulled from 5 plants . . . .all left to grow without any training . .. . . guess what i did it myself


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

UB





Me









oh and i dont claim to be a proffesional . .i actually consider myself a novice


----------



## lilroach (Aug 28, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> look like small yield
> 
> heres a closet i filled from a2600 watt grow back before i switched to vert
> 
> ...



The difference is....my photos are from a yield from one 30" plant. I got three ounces dry. I'm referring to the photos from your grow journal......what ya got there is pretty good.

My grow journal is there for everyone to see. 

And all I was saying about my Uncle Ben's pics is that his theories worked for me....and I didn't need $200 of snake oil to have great healthy plants.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

This thread is about "the almighty leaf", right?



lilroach said:


> Here's some pics of what Uncle Ben has done for me:


So, if you compare the burnt up, marginally productive leaves (below) with what lilroach grew, there is no comparison. If I had to guess he used/abused bloom foods and practiced another typical forum drill, flushed, and too soon. 







I didn't do anything for you other than to apply common sense, but Lilroach, good on ya! The leaves are deep green and very healthy looking. 

ShamWow, you, like Sit, need to STFU, listen, and embrace conventional gardening methods.

Having said that, this is what I did with a regular potting soil, custom blend, and 10 cents worth of Walmart food. This is how a plant _should_ look (doesn't 100% of the time of course) close to harvest, with rich super productive leaves and no bronzing or burning leaves like you see in ShamWow's plants.

View attachment 2795046

View attachment 2795047

View attachment 2795048

View attachment 2795049

And here is my typical garden for the defoliating addicts. Top lighting only, CRAMMED plants, reflective panels always adjusted/kept close to the plants. These finish out at 4 - 5' tall. 

View attachment 2795050

A healthy, productive leaf feeds the entire plant. Contrary to popular (newbie) belief, budsites do not need direct light in order to develop well. That is a myth, a forum paradigm, parroted by newbs who don't know or care about botany and do not understand plant processes.

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> ....I never used the high P food all the way through though. It seems like common knowledge around RIU that it's not a good nute to use exclusively during flower. Someone as experienced with nutes as yourself, and active on RIU as yourself... doing a whole Dyna Bloom grow makes me suspect a strong bias, with no real intentions to succeed in the first place. Just my opinion.


You nailed it on all points. Until I started "beating" folks up years ago, they were using/abusing high P bloom foods....falling for the marketing hype, again not understanding or caring about plant nutrition. Hell, 90% of these people don't have a clue as to what their plants are receiving regarding elements. https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/158144-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-bloom.html

It's not the Dyna Gro, it's the grower and their choices that's the issue as you pointed out. I wish Homebrewer were here to opine. He conducted a very solid experiment using clones and the affect of different NPK ratios. He compared Dyna's 'Grow' and 'Foliage Pro' using them exclusively on a batch of clones. The high N food, Foliage Pro, produced slightly more robust plants (to my eyes and other members at Riddlem3) and a 10% yield. He has a condensed version of that study here at RIU. It's worth looking at. My last outdoor garden received nothing but a slow release 18-4-9, which I use on everything now.

Good job!


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> *LMAO ok bro, not true*, and it also depends on what the corn is being grown for and what type of corn is being grown. Did you forget the obvious point *that a 6 year old* can point out that the corn you buy at the supermarket is still green. It is harvested that way so it ripens on the way to market ensuring quality and freshness is maintained and the plant cells are still continuing their basic metabolic cycles so by the time it hits shelves it is at its peak ripeness.


"A 6 year old" is about right. 

Sit, you can do your silly kiddie laugh all you want, but I thought I recommended you shut the fuck UP! Some of us know a bit about gardening and plant processes. You obviously don't but have the audacity to come in here and with a condescending tone, talk shit. There are certain vegetables and fruits which once pulled off the plant/vine/tree DO NOT continue to ripen! Corn is one of them. It holds its brix, sugar, for a while and then over time that sugar turns into starch. Peaches and grapes are another example. Once you get that sugar and chemistry (acids, flavoring compounds) to a certain point on the tree/vine, once harvested, it does NOT change. I grow both and I use a refractometer religiously to determine the peak of flavor, sugar, and ripeness.

Funny, measured one of my cantaloupe yesterday and it came in at a whopping 14*. Could smell the richness across the room from that fruit. I pull it when it's in a stem slip stage. Grapes are sugar sweet with a brix 22-27* at harvest. Average 23-24.



> Just let it go bro and don't chime in when you don't have any knowledge on a subject,...


Excuse me? 

Again......

View attachment 2795063


----------



## lilroach (Aug 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> This thread is about "the almighty leaf", right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I will admit that I pushed Phosphorus a bit too much on this plant. I don't flush.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

lilroach said:


> I decided to check out your grow journals: https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/356687-samwell-seed-well.html
> 
> I won't make this personal........but you really really really should consider Uncle Ben's suggestions.


I betcha a "dollar to a donut" he doesn't have a clue, nor does he realize the value, of the elements his plants are getting.

>Canna A/B, Cannaszym, Rizotonic, Bio Boost, Canna Boost, PK 13/14, H&G Drip clean<

Let's take a look at Canna Boost, 0-1-1. It's basically NOTHING but a high priced bottle of water with little real world value. In fact, it will induce exactly what the grower should not want - premature leaf drop. Course ya gotta use half a bottle to get any "real world" effect. 

Look at this marketing hype. It's the same ol shit.....aimed directly at suckers.
http://www.cannagardening.com/cannaboost

*"Fuller, harder fruits
CANNABOOST is CANNAs powerful flowering stimulator. "*

Wow, that's what I need! Anything to make it harder is alright with me!

*"CANNABOOST is a universal flowering stimulant; "*

Universal? cool.......

*"Combines perfectly with PK 13/14"*

Of course...gotta sucker up for one more snake oil (only to induce necrosis and leaf drop of course). Screw the nitrogen in flowering, eh.

*"CANNABOOST contains flowering compounds that assure the plant matures to its full potential. "*

I likes full potentials!

*"Better, stronger taste"*

I knew it was coming! Looks like they got it all sussed up, yah sah! What, no Clearex? Gotta flush out all those nasty products you just used, eh?

Uncle Ben


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

lilroach said:


> I will admit that I pushed Phosphorus a bit too much on this plant. I don't flush.


Isn't apparent to me, not like ShamWow's plants which really got hit hard with bloom foods.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 28, 2013)

Sativied said:


> Starting to get annoyed, might get the urge to start namecalling... and some might then think that's because I felt like I had lost a debate based on valid arguments... instead of your your your... nah, nvm, I'm done.
> 
> _"Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone." - Ayn Rand_


Sativied, you're kind of a dick. A pompous, condescending, arrogant, snide fellow. You kinda rub people the wrong way.

I think there is a reason that you find yourself in these situations often. I see your spats... it appears as though you have no clue why someone is replying to you with animosity
.. It has little to do with debate. It has much to do with the fact that no one likes a pompous, snide little pup yipping in the ear.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

.....and the spinning and chest beating continues.



Samwell Seed Well said:


> UB
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sorry, in spite of how cool you think you are, I've got you beat hands down with this plant when it comes to volume, weight, and quality....and that's with one plant grown with little cost or effort, just stuck out in the field. You like most have never grown a sativa, nor have you grown outdoors. You don't have a clue when it comes to the excellent sativa cerebral high nor the ease and no-cost growing method I used. 

4 main colas on a plant, so heavy they bent sideways in spite of all 4 colas being staked and tied up.

View attachment 2795120

View attachment 2795121

View attachment 2795122

2 of the main colas.

View attachment 2795123



> oh and i dont claim to be a proffesional . .i actually consider myself a novice


You're just another abrasive, smart ass newb that grows typical indica mutts, sucks up to snake oil companies, dumbs down RIU and experienced growers in general.

UB


----------



## taint (Aug 28, 2013)

Have not seen yer wheelbarrow shot in years ub...............nice to see some things never change.


----------



## Rocketman64 (Aug 28, 2013)

lilroach said:


> Here's some pics of what Uncle Ben has done for me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks lilroach, confidence restored!


----------



## Rocketman64 (Aug 28, 2013)

View attachment 2795121

View attachment 2795122

Yummy. I can almost smell it. Scratch and sniff PC applications should be available soon by my calculations. Post this again in the near future so I can claw my way through the screen.





UB[/QUOTE]


----------



## patlpp (Aug 28, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Can you say that you really gave your best attempt at this?
> If so... i'm pretty disappointed in you pat... i remembered you being a pretty good grower about a year or 2 ago.
> 
> It's not Dyna man.. I produced killer crops with Dyna while I was using it. From the first to the last.
> ...





Uncle Ben said:


> You nailed it on all points. Until I started "beating" folks up years ago, they were using/abusing high P bloom foods....falling for the marketing hype, again not understanding or caring about plant nutrition. Hell, 90% of these people don't have a clue as to what their plants are receiving regarding elements. https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/158144-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-bloom.html
> 
> It's not the Dyna Gro, it's the grower and their choices that's the issue as you pointed out. I wish Homebrewer were here to opine. He conducted a very solid experiment using clones and the affect of different NPK ratios. He compared Dyna's 'Grow' and 'Foliage Pro' using them exclusively on a batch of clones. The high N food, Foliage Pro, produced slightly more robust plants (to my eyes and other members at Riddlem3) and a 10% yield. He has a condensed version of that study here at RIU. It's worth looking at. My last outdoor garden received nothing but a slow release 18-4-9, which I use on everything now.
> 
> Good job!


That plant was from a year ago and I pulled 3.5 oz. It was 1 of 5 plants under a 600w. It is a Super Lemon Haze. What is so bad about it? It's green and all. Lacked some foliage but that is inherent with the cross, however nice and green . I used Dyna-gro Grow just like HB advocated which both of you also endorsed. I posted it as an example of UB's 4-cola topping method. (notice it was a compliment). I know all about high-P foods and shit. This was a run to see what all the hoopla was about. If I did so bad, explain what I did wrong ok? I'm very interested. So I guess I fucked up by using the nutes you guys advocate. I had no complaints other than the stretch but it does show the cool UB 4 cola thing quite well. Maybe I should stop complimenting so much.

Here is another shot with sis......... what's wrong with it ?


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 28, 2013)

patlpp said:


> That plant was from a year ago and I pulled 3.5 oz. It was 1 of 5 plants under a 600w. It is a Super Lemon Haze. What is so bad about it? It's green and all. Lacked some foliage but that is inherent with the cross, however nice and green . I used Dyna-gro Grow just like HB advocated which both of you also endorsed. I posted it as an example of UB's 4-cola topping method. (notice it was a compliment). I know all about high-P foods and shit. This was a run to see what all the hoopla was about. If I did so bad, explain what I did wrong ok? I'm very interested. So I guess I fucked up by using the nutes you guys advocate. I had no complaints other than the stretch but it does show the cool UB 4 cola thing quite well. Maybe I should stop complimenting so much.


Which Dyna products did you use pat? I wonder if you flowered to early. that plant has no alternating nodes. wierd


----------



## sunni (Aug 28, 2013)

hmm you guys are your arguing ,


----------



## patlpp (Aug 28, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> Which Dyna products did you use pat?


Chuck that was Dyna-Gro GROW with pro-tekt, No cal/mag the first 2 weeks because the coco was not new. It was from seed and vegged maybe 40 days (from seed planting) 

Here is a plant 100% Coco with Sensi Base 12 ml gal, cal-mag first 2 weeks 3ml/gal, 1/4 ml pro-tekt. 







Note some cupping. I decreased the Sensi to 10ml/gal to compensate. Plenty of green and good yields too. 

I'm not against Dyna at all, I use it for veg all the time. Here is Sensi, here's your green !!


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 28, 2013)

patlpp said:


> Chuck that was Dyna-Gro GROW with pro-tekt, No cal/mag the first 2 weeks because the coco was not new. It was from seed and vegged maybe 40 days (from seed planting) Here is a plant 100% Coco with Sensi Base 12 ml gal, cal-mag first 2 weeks 3ml/gal, 1/4 ml pro-tekt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


looks awesome,nice job. I have been using nothing but the Foliage pro with incredible success.


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> "A 6 year old" is about right.
> 
> Sit, you can do your silly kiddie laugh all you want, but I thought I recommended you shut the fuck UP! Some of us know a bit about gardening and plant processes. You obviously don't but have the audacity to come in here and with a condescending tone, talk shit. There are certain vegetables and fruits which once pulled off the plant/vine/tree DO NOT continue to ripen! Corn is one of them. It holds its brix, sugar, for a while and then over time that sugar turns into starch. Peaches and grapes are another example. Once you get that sugar and chemistry (acids, flavoring compounds) to a certain point on the tree/vine, once harvested, it does NOT change. I grow both and I use a refractometer religiously to determine the peak of flavor, sugar, and ripeness.
> 
> ...


There was just so much wrong with what he said before I had to chime in. Apparently you also don't have any knowledge of large scale commercial farming and the distribution systems that they use. Yes what you are saying about corn production was true back in the 80's and early 90's. In order to meet the the current demands farmers and commercial greenhouses had to revolutionize their harvesting and distribution process. Those sugars that you are talking about that turn into starch over time is where it starts. Prior to harvest there is a ratio that farmers look at before they harvest to determine the time the plant will reach it peak ripeness when it gets to market. From there they can decide when it is best to harvest because they know about how long it will take to get to a supermarket for consumers.

So how bout you View attachment 2795063


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

lilroach said:


> Here's some pics of what Uncle Ben has done for me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I noticed you had to stake your branches. I've had the same "problem" and read that it may be due to high nitrogen during flower. Any insights?


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> This was the answer I gave... I didn't think it was too bad... you might of missed it. If you didn't like the answer though, no big deal..
> It's hard to answer because with Sativas it all depends basically on how long of a flower period you want to deal with. With that number, I could prbly give a better answer.
> 
> 
> ...


My apologies. I said kitehigh and now realize it was you who replied. Thanks


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

Also I don't worry too much on time frame. I do it for the experience and enjoyment. It seems in my opinion too many people try to rush a good thing


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

patlpp said:


> That plant was from a year ago and I pulled 3.5 oz. It was 1 of 5 plants under a 600w. It is a Super Lemon Haze. What is so bad about it? It's green and all. Lacked some foliage but that is inherent with the cross, however nice and green . I used Dyna-gro Grow just like HB advocated which both of you also endorsed. I posted it as an example of UB's 4-cola topping method. (notice it was a compliment). I know all about high-P foods and shit. This was a run to see what all the hoopla was about. If I did so bad, explain what I did wrong ok? I'm very interested. So I guess I fucked up by using the nutes you guys advocate. I had no complaints other than the stretch but it does show the cool UB 4 cola thing quite well. Maybe I should stop complimenting so much.
> 
> Here is another shot with sis......... what's wrong with it ?


 Think its a pretty decent plant


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> Which Dyna products did you use pat? I wonder if you flowered to early. that plant has no alternating nodes. wierd


I've always read that a plant won't flower until its ready? How can you flower too soon?


----------



## Sativied (Aug 28, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> I've always read that a plant won't flower until its ready?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoperiodism Switching to 12/12 is done to push it to flower sooner.



Dboi87 said:


> How can you flower too soon?


Mature plants generally produce higher quantity and higher potency bud.


----------



## patlpp (Aug 28, 2013)

My subject plant was mature because obvious flowering showed like 5 days after the switch. She was ready.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

Sativied said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoperiodism Switching to 12/12 is done to push it to flower sooner.
> 
> Mature plants generally produce higher quantity and higher potency bud.


From the books I've read, switching to 12/12 signals the plant to flower if it is mature enough to do so. And ok I guess I see what you could mean by too soon. Mel Frank wrote that peak potency is usually around 8-10 months..... makes me really want to figure this cloning thing out


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

Just a thought back on the subject of leaves... I feel a lot of people take the phrase "feed" your plants literally. Nutrients are less actual food but more so elements needed to carry out a plants life functions. A plants "food" is synthesized through photosynthesis. For photosynthesis to occur plants need chlorophyll. Hence the importance of the almighty leaf. Less green = less food.

Elementary I know but often overlooked


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> Just a thought back on the subject of leaves... I feel a lot of people take the phrase "feed" your plants literally. Nutrients are less actual food but more so elements needed to carry out a plants life functions. A plants "food" is synthesized through photosynthesis. For photosynthesis to occur plants need chlorophyll. Hence the importance of the almighty leaf. Less green = less food.
> 
> Elementary I know but often overlooked


NM . . .no point . . pied piper


----------



## Sativied (Aug 28, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> From the books I've read, switching to 12/12 signals the plant to flower if it is mature *enough to do so.*


Mature enough to do so, not as in mature enough to produce optimal results.



Dboi87 said:


> makes me really want to figure this cloning thing out


Cloning is a matter of just doing. Not much to figure out. But yeah, that helps a lot. Not uncommon for clones from mature plants to flower much faster, can easily cut off a week from a cycle depending on the strain. I like the variety of seeds too much though, but do have a clone from a mother that was 5-6 months old already and had preflowers (on 18/6) long before that so took only 6 days to get her to flower.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

Rocketman64 said:


> View attachment 2795121
> 
> View attachment 2795122
> 
> Yummy. I can almost smell it. Scratch and sniff PC applications should be available soon by my calculations. Post this again in the near future so I can claw my way through the screen.


Yep, totally different ball game. Notice the airy bud and very short stalks? Almost can't see the trichomes with the naked eye either. But that's mostly what sativas do. Another misguided myth that seedbanks use to sell their mutts is to equate the trichome field with potency. I have smoked bud in which there was very little visible trichomes to the naked eye and the quality of high and the potency trampled your typical seller's big cola with lots of shugar.  It's what's inside that counts.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

Sativied said:


> Mature enough to do so, not as in mature enough to produce optimal results.
> 
> Cloning is a matter of just doing. Not much to figure out. But yeah, that helps a lot. Not uncommon for clones from mature plants to flower much faster, can easily cut off a week from a cycle depending on the strain. I like the variety of seeds too much though, but do have a clone from a mother that was 5-6 months old already and had preflowers (on 18/6) long before that so took only 6 days to get her to flower.


I just haven't had any success. Will try again.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> ok lets talk about this
> 
> what do you knwo about stomata
> 
> and VPD, what do you knwo of this UB of any of you


Just that there are pores the plants use for transpiration. I knew nothing about botany half a year ago. I'm a novice and do not pretend otherwise. Trying to learn all I can though. Please continue


----------



## patlpp (Aug 28, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> Think its a pretty decent plant


Thanks. It actually "looks" better than the other one in Sensi but I saw no yield change between the 2 *but taste/customer satisfaction leaned to the AN side so that is what I grow with, economically too.*
I found that environmentally the Sensi is more tolerant. Dyna is not the best in cooler situations. I suspect because of the higher ammoniacal Nitrogen. I prefer switching to Sensi Bloom once flowers are shown. ALL the N (Nitrate nitrogen) is immediately available to keep the green regardless of temps . What burns me is unless you use Foliage-Pro or Grow, you are an idiot which is unfair.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> Which Dyna products did you use pat? I wonder if you flowered to early. that plant has no alternating nodes. wierd


Said he used Grow and yes, the fact that the nodes are opposed is very weird. Suggests that it wasn't really ready to flower but then again the foliage is sparse too. Got be the genetics unless he didn't get his other factors down pat - temps, water, veg times. Plant has nice dark healthy leaves. 

Let's put it this way, unless it was potent, a nice clean sativa high, I wouldn't spend my money on those genetics. I would and do spend it on Dyna-Gro.  

He could be playing the blame game here. "I didn't do it, it was the Dyna-Gro!"

UB

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

patlpp said:


> Chuck that was Dyna-Gro GROW with pro-tekt, No cal/mag the first 2 weeks because the coco was not new. It was from seed and vegged maybe 40 days (from seed planting)
> 
> Here is a plant 100% Coco with Sensi Base 12 ml gal, cal-mag first 2 weeks 3ml/gal, 1/4 ml pro-tekt.
> 
> ...


Same family of clones?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> I noticed you had to stake your branches. I've had the same "problem" and read that it may be due to high nitrogen during flower. Any insights?


Weak, skinny stems....a genetic phenotype thing. Has nothing to do with N during flowering. Where did you read that, here at RIU?


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

oh and high N during flower is bad . . . .reduces THC content, not structural integrity 

weak branches can be effected by adding usable amounts of silica to help plant cell walls, improving cell wall structure rigidity and strength, plant architecture and leaf correctness and as well as branches but i only use it in veg

silica also helps fight disease , droughts and hi amount of aluminum


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Weak, skinny stems....a genetic phenotype thing. Has nothing to do with N during flowering. Where did you read that, here at RIU?


Lol of course


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> just remember once you have learned all UB has to teach you . . . .that their is a lot more
> 
> you cant have effceint photosynthesis without understanding your VPD, no matter how green your leaf is, which is important . . . .my whole heart-ed suggestion is take everything you learn here and research it, so you know the big picture dont listen to UB when he said dont use this or that research why . . . .if UB tells you that High N in flower is ok then research why . . .


What's VPD?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

Used to think that foliar sprays work only if the stomata is open.....that that was the point for the entry of salts. Not true according to one professional source who has been doing this for 30 years selling and helping farmers from Canada to Mexico on every kind of plant material from soy to citrus. Salts are absorbed thru the cuticle, the epidermis. If you ever burned your leaves using foliar sprays, of any kind, it's because you toasted the leaf cuticle or epidermis. I have about 7 of his products. Owner is definately worth talking to. Just a warning, he is a pro and if you come off as a bozo you're gonna lose his interest and him.
http://www.seedcoat.com/seedcoat.html

Ask him what he thinks of chelates lol. 

UB


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

vapor pressure deficit, is a relation of RH and the plants internal pressure

im sure UB will know more about it

but the less the difference between temp and humidity the more stomata are open *making photosynthesis more efficient*

cant have a working leaf without open stomata . . . .so its kinda pointless to learn about photosynthesis if you dont learn the big picture

cannon anon exchange of ec, is also very important . . . che lated non che lated . . . . 

but dyna grow dont make a brochure on it so you may not learn about it here

here is a good read on VPD

http://www.just4growers.com/stream/temperature,-humidity-and-c02/vapor-pressure-deficit-the-hidden-force-on-your-plants.aspx


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> just remember once you have learned all UB has to teach you . . . .that their is a lot more


Like what? How to install a light mover....a air scrubber? A retard can do that.



> . . . .if UB tells you that High N in flower is ok then research why . . .


You tell me why "UB tells you N during flowering is OK". 

Gotta ask, why did you choose the brother of Charles Manson as your avatar? It's as creepy as your trolling.

UB


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Like what? How to install a light mover....a air scrubber? A retard can do that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nitrogen in the flower period reduces THC . . do you not know?



so where do you stand grasshopper . .high N or not ?

and no my avatar is of sage francis . . . .but ad homenin away their buddy

tell us about how Kelp is bad for your plants and is a snake oil if ever sold as a supplment for plants


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> Nitrogen in the flower period reduces THC . . do you not know?


Aint buying it. It's the leaves' food production that produces it all including THC and if you induce leaf necrosis, premature leaf drop, with bloom foods.....you're a dummy. For most newbs they've allowed themselves to be brainwashed by the dozens and dozens of cannabis specific bloom food pushers and forum sucker bets thinking that it's bloom foods that produce "da hard buds". I and other experienced growers who have chosen foods with decent amounts of N know that's bullshit. Back up that crap with some bonafide research sourced by a non-partisan, university based firm. 

If you don't have a good and healthy root and foliage mass going into the flowering response AND harvest, you will have missed the full potential of your plant material.

Wean yourself from the label teats. 

UB


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> *Aint buying it. * It's the leaves' food production that produces it all including THC and if you induce leaf necrosis, premature leaf drop, with bloom foods.....you're a dummy. For most newbs they've allowed themselves to be brainwashed by the dozens and dozens of cannabis specific bloom food pushers and forum sucker bets thinking that it's bloom foods that produce "da hard buds". I and other experienced growers who have chosen foods with decent amounts of N know that's bullshit.
> 
> Wean yourself from the label teats.
> 
> ...



http://imageshack.us/a/img823/2750/brfs.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img14/6329/x4k2.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img197/6493/hhvb.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img545/2799/zczs.png

*"These experiments show that the THC content of leaves decreases with increasing N" *


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


>


For starts, can't read the fine print. I believe that was a hemp study, was it not? It's been discussed (and dissed) before.

You're growing hemp for fiber production. We're talking cannabis here. It's a no brainer that based on the testing....if you have more fiber (cellulose) you're gonna have less of the other stuff, in this case, THC. The test is being done to increase fiber and decrease THC for marketing and litigious purposes, is it not?


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)




----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)




----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> For starts, can't read the fine print. I believe that was a hemp study, was it not? It's been discussed (and dissed) before.
> 
> You're growing hemp for fiber production. We're talking cannabis here.


so what does this have to do with, increased N and THC decreasing . . .nice fallacy

an informal one at that

that study is for Hemp, so it cant be relative to POT

are you advocating that MJ is a special plant that is effected differently then other plants

cuase that would lend credence to the MJ specific nutrients game you hate so much


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

maybe i shoudl take some low quality pictures of bud thats all airy and leafy like yours with flash on to make it seem like my plants have super shiny THC glands and then . .maybe then i can get a wheelbarrow full of leaf to impress you with

notice the nice green lush leafs . .and the multi-tude of completely visible and pote3nt trichs . . . unlike your shimmery plant

you can see my trichs are large and numerous 




oh and this is at week 4 of a 8-9 week plant . . . . .i test strains from seed . . . no predetermined knowledge of outcome . . . . and i dont have to lie about my genetics , they speak for themselves

"junlge sativa" fucking epic

if you ever feel like growing out a real sativa i got abuddy with legit sativas . . . his he goes by 4dragons . . .and works closely with 

SNOW who is renound for working old school sativas . . vs your heroes Dutch breeders (who most all of the industry regarded as the 

worst place to get seeds) and arjan of greenhouse the biggest flavour flav front man who does nothing since . . . the thrid wheel

oh wait he stole all of nice guys original mothers and made his own company with it . . thats right . . .watered down BS


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> so what does this have to do with, increased N and THC decreasing . . .nice fallacy
> 
> an informal one at that
> 
> ...


Are you advocating the loss of leaves, the very unit that produces bud and your holy of holies - THC?

Look, you aint got a lab to verify anything of value in this discussion. That study you parroted from months ago is about hemp. Personal anecdotal evidence from friends who get my pot and love it says my drills are working just fine. They have no complaints and they will buy everything I can grow, pre-sold.

UB


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

ahaha i post credible info and this is what you get . . .word games

i advocate growing dank, i dont knwo what you advocate . . but it aint growing dank


aka why you use shitty photos and flash to show people your outcome of your system . . and they look like shit man . .

you ignore any info that goes against what you preach, go on and tel lus how kelp is a snake oil . . . .tool for the horticulturist 

farmers used it for thousands of years but UB know better . . . . just like UB invents topping techniques


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

[video=youtube;X9ee4Ayv9P4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9ee4Ayv9P4[/video]


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

you got nothing but your subjective opinion . . .. . . and that means nothing in the face of experience and outcomes . . . .. . aka life

go on about your lab . . . . .. .

sativa/indica . . you choose what you grow . .and you choose how to describe it . . . .if what you got is lacking which it def look like it . . get it tested . . . .show us up


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

so to go on about healthy plant structures . .having the correct amount of silica in your system is paramount to plant health and rigidity

UB will tell you you havent been foliage spraying with Dyna foliage enough...just like the CANNA reps tell me to use more boost(which i dont and i cut it a long time ago) . but thats becuase they work for the companies they push


----------



## lilroach (Aug 28, 2013)

Ya know....this would be an interesting conversation if you two would actually stop calling each other names and stick with the subject at hand. I'm actually willing to bet that if you two met at a bar, you would soon be drinking buddies.

Enough of this "my dick is bigger than your dick" shit.


----------



## lilroach (Aug 28, 2013)

So....what is the right amount of N to give during flowering?

I've been using Jack's Classic. Someone did the math for me, and I believe I'm feeding 1-3-1.


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

i dont think im better or "bigger", 

*i know im a novice*

im expressing that others have knowledge that is relevant . . .and UB's doctrine is to discredit(use sophistry and word defamation) and belittle, just as he did the second i posted my study . . . .and then goes on to belittle my accomplishments . . .go ahead find all the mean things i said to him and re read . . . .im defending . . . . .and deflecting back to him . . . .in the world of perception aka online persona . .i could give two shits wither im liked loved, or respected . . my work speaks for itself . . .and in the premise of a conversation / discussion my experience is as relevant as any . . . . i add to and get slapped so i react . . its life . . . .get used to it, we are not all passive aggressive 


but please proceed . . . with the one sided point of view that lies to you . . intentionally


----------



## thenotsoesoteric (Aug 28, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> LMAO ok bro, not true, and it also depends on what the corn is being grown for and what type of corn is being grown. Did you forget the obvious point that a 6 year old can point out that the corn you buy at the supermarket is still green. It is harvested that way so it ripens on the way to market ensuring quality and freshness is maintained and the plant cells are still continuing their basic metabolic cycles so by the time it hits shelves it is at its peak ripeness.
> 
> Or were you unable to find that in your google search as usual. C'mon alex you're a google whore and copy and paste your arguments right from the internet word for word and I've cited you on this before. Just let it go bro and don't chime in when you don't have any knowledge on a subject, why do you think no one liked your post? Because it is blatantly wrong.


Pretty much only sweet corn is picked green. 
The corn for fuel, grain(both human and animal consumption), and many other uses like alcohol, the farmers just let it dry on the stalk. Lived in the midwest for 20+ years and never see them cut ANY corn before it is all yellow and dried because if the corn is not dry when cut farmers actually have to pay to have it dried. I have no idea what percentage of corn is grown for "corn of the cob" and canned corn, but I'd guess less than 10% with 90% of corn grown for industrial uses(cereal,alcohol, etc) and animal feed. I'm not agreeing totally with Alex ST, but there is more corn harvested already dry on the stalk. And it is shit most of us eat daily: cornmeal, high fructose corn syrup, Captin Crunch and other cereals, alcohol, and others with no real nutritional benefit.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

Enough to ward off premature yellowing


----------



## lilroach (Aug 28, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> i dont think im better or "bigger",
> 
> *i know im a novice*
> 
> ...



I (and I'm guessing many others) don't care who started the name-calling. We are on here for good reliable information. I've had good luck with UB's suggestions, but I don't feel that one person knows everything.


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

lilroach said:


> So....what is the right amount of N to give during flowering?
> 
> I've been using Jack's Classic. Someone did the math for me, and I believe I'm feeding 1-3-1.


i use basically a 1.5-1-2 formula . . . . , but i also use organics that work around 2-3-1

i stop using both my base and my organic teas 

around 2 weeks before harvest for the che lated base 

and 5-7 weeks for the teas (if i feed properly in veg i dont need to re inoculate the soil every week in flower) i dont call it flushing . . . 

because i never leach any water out, i just continue to feed as normal . . .

plus i use budswell and trinity to feed the bennies and 

increase brix and flavanoids (imho), untill plant is mature(calyx swollen, hairs receded, fades increasing, thc glad maturity)


so short answer, i stop feeding N beyond base levels after 3-5 weeks into flower

obviously you need most of the macro/micro nutrients throughout flower, which is why i keep my base A, B Canna nutrients as long as possible . . .


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> Enough to ward off premature yellowing


every plant will be different . . . my High Def a hawiianbigbud x dutch treat is a sativa dom takes ten weeks . . . hates N curls in week 2 if i dont drop her N to min amounts right away . . . other strains . . . love more N . . . . but as a general rule it is easier to add then to remove . . so i start low and see what a plant will do before i typecast my feeding program to them

i test strains more then i run the same over and over so, i have had to put a new and less acute nutrient recipes to work for a broader range of needs


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

There's no magical number or ratio. The aim is to just ward off deficiency. Better to undershoot and correct than to overshoot and bite the Bullet


----------



## lilroach (Aug 28, 2013)

Thank you for the info. I like what Jack's has done for my buds, and it would seem that 1-3-1 is a good start. I keep an eye on my (dare I say it) leaves as to the health of the plant overall. Someone suggested bone-meal sprinkled on the top of the soil when going into 12/12. Any thoughts on that practice?


----------



## thenotsoesoteric (Aug 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Weak, skinny stems....a genetic phenotype thing. Has nothing to do with N during flowering. Where did you read that, here at RIU?


Nah, it's a using to much nitrogen in flower thing. Trial and error is the real test, no need to read things you experience for yourself. But that information has been in Rosenthal's and Cervantes's books, I've read it in the Kyle kushman viewer reader questions and answers. Many reputable authors suggest lower nitrogen during flower.


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

And I'd like to set the record straight. . . .UB is a knowledgeable guy . . .I should take more time to achknoledge what he's does well as much as what I have issue with . .. . . His topping technique . . .. a great tool . . .I think lst is better but for the guy who wants to plug and play so to speak, it's a great technique .....

I just take issue with his constant manipulative belittleing of people who don't ride his nuts, I'm not pointing fingers at his fans. . . I just responding to how I was treated . . . 


Guy is a good grower and is a saint tbh for putting up with us but I can't take responsibility for his attitude ....it stinks


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Understand that these trolls are not important. RIU has set the standards of this site.
> 
> But, it's an issue of power, which I have over them. I own these trolls. They can not let it go.
> 
> UB


Noobs follow you, that's pretty sweet 
crown yourself king of noobs 

i am still waiting for your updated pictures of a marijuana plant you have grown recently 
what is it you are hiding from ?


----------



## patlpp (Aug 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> He could be playing the blame game here. "I didn't do it, it was the Dyna-Gro!"
> 
> UB
> 
> UB


Please understand I have no beef with this plant grown with Dyna except for the stretch. I posted it to exemplify your topping technique as a compliment. Jeez. 
No blame game here. I use Foliage-pro to visible flowering to this day ok? 



Uncle Ben said:


> Same family of clones?


No ,completely different plant to show I get green too through flower with Sensi. That's all


----------



## patlpp (Aug 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Said he used Grow and yes, the fact that the nodes are opposed is very weird. Suggests that it wasn't really ready to flower but then again the foliage is sparse too. *Got be the genetics unless he didn't get his other factors down pat - temps, water, veg times. Plant has nice dark healthy leaves*.
> 
> L


What would cause this then if it were not genetics? So If I keep my temps ok and veg longer and use clean water (I R/O BTW) I would have alternating nodes? I still don't know what is so bad about this plant that pulled 3.5 zips out of 5 plants under 600 watts. Do 12/12 from seed growers see opposing nodes as a norm? 

I had a Nirvana Bubble plant from seed that did the same thing. I waited and waited for the alternating nodes, nada. I finally switched 12/12 after the sucker was 3 feet tall in veg! Very very bushy.


----------



## lilroach (Aug 28, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> Noobs follow you, that's pretty sweet
> crown yourself king of noobs
> 
> i am still waiting for your updated pictures of a marijuana plant you have grown recently
> what is it you are hiding from ?



Really....can't we just stick to the subject and stop this childish stuff?


----------



## lilroach (Aug 28, 2013)

To Uncle Ben,

As a follower of your growing techniques I admire your knowledge and your willingness to share with others. I've defended you often as trolls have bashed you.

With that said, I've read many of your posts, here and on other threads, and I want to tell you as a friend.....you are often lacking in social graces. I think many more readers would be more open to your suggestions if you were not as abrasive as you come across on a regular basis. 

I have a political page where I am moderator and if you think that things can get heated here, you should try to keep the peace on a political page. I have found that if everyone avoids making it personal, discussions are more productive, and those with opposing views often find common ground or even find they agree with "the other side".

So I ask you, and your detractors.....let's not make this personal. We all can learn a lot from you and those that grow differently than you.

Lilroach


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 28, 2013)

lilroach said:


> Really....can't we just stick to the subject and stop this childish stuff?


I am not offended by your comments or insinuations that my request for pictures is "childish" since this is only your opinion 
Thanks for sharing your views, your concern has been noted 

i request that UB posts some pictures of plants he grow recently 
this is a perfectly reasonable request, since this is a growing forum 

peace


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 28, 2013)

I will get the show started since some folk seem to be shy

my latest efforts 
Nug shots and smoke reports !

Biker Kush 
This was my 3rd run of biker kush, on previous runs it was overshadowed by the larger haze plants i was also growing which resulted in biker not being able to fill as much space
this time round she had all the space she needed to develop into a very large bush (23 oz)
this is the best run of biker i have had 















the pheno i have kept is very much on the hash side of flavour with a combined 
fudge/caramel taste, the smell is sweet and hashy a very full flavour
noticeable on both the inhale and exhale with a good amount of expansion
the smoke from this one is very oily in texture it coats the mouth with flavour 
and leaves a sweet after taste it is very moreish 
potency is good fast onset not a creeper can at times feel a little confusion of thought
a bit racy at first this settles into a nice warm feeling time becomes quite distorted
a potent hybrid type of potency excellent yield , i can find very little negative to say about this plant
only thing i can think of is in veg it does not grow symmetrical it spits shoots out randomly
up and down the stems, this makes it a little harder to keep very small mother plants
as the bottoms of these plants have no shoots lol just sticks 

Taste 9/10
Potency 8/10
Yield 9/10


Fire Alien Kush grown from seed, 21 days veg 9.5 weeks flower yield from both plants was 11 oz combined 



















Both FAK phenos produced nuggets rather than colas, although they kept their weight quite well for small plants, 
they have both provided a nice smoke, both now tasting lemony and sweet, not so much of a powerful oily expansion as the biker kush, FAK taste thin in comparison 
where this one excels is potency 
i am finding this one very long lasting 2-3 hours easy from 1 joint 
very strong physical rush, nice tingly feeling allover the body 
its quite numbing, with less mental stimulation , less edgy than biker kush 
i am alert when smoking this
not really coach-lock weed, but after a few joints it will put me to sleep just like biker kush does
this is good weed to chill out with when not much thinking is required 

Taste 7/10
Potency 9/10
Yield 6/10


Happy brother bx2 grown from seed 21 days veg 10 weeks flower













you can't win them all !
this strain was overall quite disappointing 
i do not know if the phenos i got are a fair representation of the clone only 
since i have never sampled it
both phenos of HB bx2 i had were very slow growing and low yielding 
both phenos remind me very much of NL crosses but without the great vigiour and yield of NL
the taste the bud structure the bud leaves very much NL but with some sk#1 traits too
the smell and taste is also similar to some of the blues phenos i grew recently 
both plants lacked resin compared to most indica doms 
The taste is mixed fruit or NL he high is pleasant and light for an indica
this is daytime lady weed or weed for lightweights 
it's a fairly nice smoke flavour wise once i get over the disappointment of it not being anything special 

Taste 6/10
Potency 5/10
Yield 3/10

final thoughts Biker kush is quite easy still the overall winner for me, and i would highly recommend it 
FAK is nice, although the high price of the $eeds and mutated growth patterns make me wonder how many phenos would be needed to select a good all rounder could work out costly 

Happy brother is not so happy LOL

Peace


----------



## Situation420 (Aug 28, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> maybe i shoudl take some low quality pictures of bud thats all airy and leafy like yours with flash on to make it seem like my plants have super shiny THC glands and then . .maybe then i can get a wheelbarrow full of leaf to impress you with
> 
> notice the nice green lush leafs . .and the multi-tude of completely visible and pote3nt trichs . . . unlike your shimmery plant
> 
> ...


Oh shittt burn of the year right there


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Oh shittt burn of the year right there


ok . . . but tbh 

less 

burn

more truth

i did grow those, im not afraid of high qaulity photos to actually show the outcome of my endeavors

and Arjan of GHS is a hack of a breeder, and yes Dutch breeders are bogus . . . .

it aint a burn when its real . . . when it is reality . . 

And SNOW(of Snow High Seeds) and 4Dragons(seeds of compassion) are Old School Sativa Breeders . . .in America . .not some dutch watered down BS . .. . .


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> My problem with vert has been plant lean. I either had to rotate them or eventually had to stake them up


Sorry Didnt see this until a second ago


I was told by my bud Ganjapharmer that rotating is bad, the light and points of light your plant will have in vertcle will also be points of distribution for growth auxin's and its more efficient for the plant to maintain a set gruop of growth points vs be moved around and have the points of auxin distribution change all of the time . . 


my plants stayed in same eplace, with minimal leaf death . .. .and i defoliated (UB will not say to ever do this , ever if possible) and cut off nodes and branches during early flower . .. first ten days . . . it is less about design as it is about air movement . . .. any dead zones will become an issue


----------



## dannyboy602 (Aug 28, 2013)

So much fuss. Over a friggin weed.


----------



## a mongo frog (Aug 28, 2013)

View attachment 2795828View attachment 2795829View attachment 2795830View attachment 2795831
Here's a few of mine, pic 1,2 og kush, pic3 sour D, and pic 3 just a root ball pic. 
All plants were grown using snake oils. Aqua Flakes base nutes, and 1 bloom booster, and what some r calling a ripener. Also all plants had the bottom third striped of all lower foliage. I'm real happy the way things turned out for me. There r tons of ways to grow, everyone enjoys growing their way. So it doesn't mean your a dip shit, or r wasting this or that cuz some one else doesn't grow like u.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> _ ::snipped::_ You like most have never grown a sativa
> _::snipped::_


I've got no beef with Samwell, but, this is so damn true. I've posted pics of my 14+ wk SSH and had people give me shit for airy buds....

I know your O Haze is further into sativa than I've gone. But, if you're gonna judge someone by their plants... don't go after someones far leaning sativa plant.

Most people see this and think...junk... terrible grower..
They have no clue.... 
View attachment 2795847


----------



## patlpp (Aug 28, 2013)

I wouldn't. Those look excellent. I don't care if you took a bath in Dyna-gro , those are indeed noteworthy. looky all those hairs!! 70's hairy !!


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

nothing wrong with a good sativa . . . .ive grown 16 week 16 dom stardogs(older release)(fuck ive grown crosses that run 16 weeks . .) never any close to 100% sativas . .. and they deserve their due just as much as anything indica . . . .. or any hydrid of the two . . and auto flower . . .. they all deserve their due


indica ..sativa . . ruederallis . . .and all in between . . if its dank and grown with care thats all that matters . .


----------



## a mongo frog (Aug 28, 2013)

Not very nice right there... Have some class sir.


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 28, 2013)

Any word on that E-vite UB? Sativied wants one too


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

I believe that much of the evidence on which we base the success of our business is largely anecdotal. It lies within our observations, which for better or worse, are colored by our own perceptions.

We interact with our peers, we watch and subscribe to consumer and industry trends, we gather feedback from growers, users, and the "medical" side of the cannabis industry which is wraught with a coverup for substance abuse, greed, and mis-representation.

I do not mean to make light of the power of these observations, because they provide us with valuable insights and perhaps we can grow from those experiences. However, this method of measurement alone cannot adequately benchmark how well we are doing or whether there is room for more.

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> Any word on that E-vite UB? Sativied wants one too


 Not yet....


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> I will get the show started since some folk seem to be shy
> 
> my latest efforts
> Nug shots and smoke reports !
> ...


What were your yields?


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 28, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> I've got no beef with Samwell, but, this is so damn true. I've posted pics of my 14+ wk SSH and had people give me shit for airy buds....
> 
> I know your O Haze is further into sativa than I've gone. But, if you're gonna judge someone by their plants... don't go after someones far leaning sativa plant.
> 
> ...


This is the sister of your SSH, and somewhat more sativa leaning (mango haze)
sativa or sativa dom hybrids bud/colas do not have to be small or airy 
if they are this is not a desirable trait , that is what breeding is for to select those which
show desirable traits like compact flower formation 
i am sorry but this "its a sativa" is an excuse further inquiry is necessary
to establish why UB's weed looks like the kind of weed Tarzan should be smoking

mango this plant yielded 21.5 oz 























































peace


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> Sorry Didnt see this until a second ago
> 
> 
> I was told by my bud Ganjapharmer that rotating is bad, the light and points of light your plant will have in vertcle will also be points of distribution for growth auxin's and its more efficient for the plant to maintain a set gruop of growth points vs be moved around and have the points of auxin distribution change all of the time . .
> ...


Yea. I had to stake them up or they tipped. One other problem was that the leaves behind the plant got no light and died off. I think I read it has something to do with them not getting enough light to use enough co2 during photosynthesis so it signals the plant to drop those leaves. I think a simple reflective or white surface could fix it but I had to move right after switching to flower.


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> Yea. I had to stake them up or they tipped. One other problem was that the leaves behind the plant got no light and died off. I think I read it has something to do with them not getting enough light to use enough co2 during photosynthesis so it signals the plant to drop those leaves. I think a simple reflective or white surface could fix it but I had to move right after switching to flower.


idk . . . .i had often thought of adding UVb bulbs or T5's to the corners . . obviously im a little lazy . . so i never did it . .but in the end, i just trimmed . . . i did not have a record harvest on my verticle crops . . .i did however get a very even canopy of growth . . .. and since i did it in a room that was less then 7 feet tall i figured i coudl improve later with more cieling . . .

reflecting of light is hard mark to count on . . . .it degrades quickly . . .best to rely on large amonts of light .. . your plants cant work more then the light allows them too . . 

i had 4k in a 6.5"x 8" x 7" about 350-400 cubic feet . . . and tbh way to much light . . but i did my best at my first attempts at vertical . ..


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> I've got no beef with Samwell, but, this is so damn true. I've posted pics of my 14+ wk SSH and had people give me shit for airy buds....
> 
> I know your O Haze is further into sativa than I've gone. But, if you're gonna judge someone by their plants... don't go after someones far leaning sativa plant.
> 
> ...


I met a guy from cali that owns a dispensary and he was telling me how sad it was how many good strains will fade if things keep going the way they are. He was saying that he would have some of the most amazing weed that had heavenly highs but people kept opting for the strains with bag appeal and strongest smells. Trics and stank. He was saying there were strains that were grown to perfection but were naturally airy or maybe not the greenest color or whatever other physical traits they may have had so people wouldn't touch them. 

Take Dr. Grinspoon for example. If people didn't know it was from Barnys and was supposed to look like that, no one would try it. They'd laugh and criticize the grower.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2013)

Mods, lock the thread.

It's been trashed by the Culture of Political Correctness and dumbshit bottom feeders.

UB


----------



## Darth Budder (Aug 28, 2013)

time for this thread to get deleted... Man, love the help you've given UB, but can't stand with this, reported. 

and no, i didnt report the rap video for saying the same word, because i dont care what you say, context counts. 

Time for this thread to get deleted again.. mods?

DB


----------



## genuity (Aug 28, 2013)

I need that sig....


----------



## Blaze31 (Aug 28, 2013)

Well I'm done with this thread and it should be deleted at least the last few pages. I don't get people these days. If you don't like what ya read find another thread that's why there's plenty of them or make your own. I read and take from other what I want but if you gotta start saying the stuff that's being said I'm sure there's a pm button. I got a lot off this thread uncle Ben and half it was started the way it was.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> This is the sister of your SSH, and somewhat more sativa leaning (mango haze)
> sativa or sativa dom hybrids bud/colas do not have to be small or airy
> if they are this is not a desirable trait , that is what breeding is for to select those which
> show desirable traits like compact flower formation
> ...


Not all strains will look like That. And not all sativas look like UBs. Different strains are just genetically wired to look Different. 

I hate to make a reference to something that isn't pot but it'd be like making fun of someone for being a wack tomato grower because they grew tiny cherry tomatoes


----------



## a mongo frog (Aug 28, 2013)

Stop with this anger please!!! Very disturbing. Your reputation is on the line here. You've gone from a creditable grower to a stuck in 10 minutes.


----------



## Dboi87 (Aug 28, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> idk . . . .i had often thought of adding UVb bulbs or T5's to the corners . . obviously im a little lazy . . so i never did it . .but in the end, i just trimmed . . . i did not have a record harvest on my verticle crops . . .i did however get a very even canopy of growth . . .. and since i did it in a room that was less then 7 feet tall i figured i coudl improve later with more cieling . . .
> 
> reflecting of light is hard mark to count on . . . .it degrades quickly . . .best to rely on large amonts of light .. . your plants cant work more then the light allows them too . .
> 
> i had 4k in a 6.5"x 8" x 7" about 350-400 cubic feet . . . and tbh way to much light . . but i did my best at my first attempts at vertical . ..


Yea I'm gonna run both overhead and vert simultaneously eventually. Only reason I mentioned reflecting was because before the move they were in a closet with white walls and were doing great. Now in the garage there aren't any light reflecting surfaces and that's when the problem started


----------



## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 28, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> Yea I'm gonna run both overhead and vert simultaneously eventually. Only reason I mentioned reflecting was because before the move they were in a closet with white walls and were doing great. Now in the garage there aren't any light reflecting surfaces and that's when the problem started


i had often thought that a bulb runing a 360 light dispersal and a overhead was a good idea . .. please post your results or idea on how it turned out

you get a more efficient light dispersal pattern with a cylinder(vert) then a 2d flat line(hortizontal)

i never did more than 3 runs vert so . . .i have much to learn

when my corners were a problem i actually put a floor fan that swiveled up in each corner . .. seem to help air movement in room


----------



## gudkarma (Aug 28, 2013)

bang.
roasted.

me personally idda left that comment if thats how i felt.

fuck changing your colors.
let them run true.


----------



## Blaze31 (Aug 28, 2013)

Is this thread locked?


----------



## a mongo frog (Aug 28, 2013)

Blaze31 said:


> Is this thread locked?


No, I think it's just getting started


----------



## HeartlandHank (Aug 28, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> This is the sister of your SSH, and somewhat more sativa leaning (mango haze)
> sativa or sativa dom hybrids bud/colas do not have to be small or airy
> if they are this is not a desirable trait , that is what breeding is for to select those which
> show desirable traits like compact flower formation
> ...


Hmm.. you're not pulling off dense buds with my certain 14+ wk SSH. not happening. She does about 20-22oz per 600 in 14+ weeks, but density does not come with the package.
There is nothing about this plant that is not desirable to me. I like the airy sat buds... i rip a chunk off... no need to break it up... stuff it in a bowl. smooth lemon haze... you can take enormous hits without choking up. Enormous hits send you into a state of mind that friends compare to being in a video game... Visual, psychedelic.
As far as sat bud formation goes... your mango haze there looks similar to some Killing Fields I have going. Foxtailed, thin leaves, comes on slow, huge yields if you wait for it.

From the same pack that I got the 14wk.. I got this 9 wk... It has pretty dense buds. I had selections in between these 2, mixed densities. Not getting with the 14wk though. 
View attachment 2795933

Just curious... what is it that makes Mango Haze lean further? I always thought SSH was just Nevs x Nevs.. no?

As to your UB thing... I'm no UB clone... but... grow something beyond your hybrid there, outdoors, then come back and say what you said about his plant. Just sayin'. Not even defending UB here... but if you're saying that all sativas can have dense buds if the grower is good... i have to disagree.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Aug 28, 2013)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> um . . . .i posted a video . . .not much to open up to . . . ..
> 
> if its any consultation . . his bigotry doest trump his knowledge . . . .unless your race come into place . ..conditions, mediums . .skin color . . .


Problem is bigotry is synonymous with closed mindedness. Closed mindedness may not trump knowledge, however it does create a glass ceiling as to the potential of vastness within that knowledge.


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 28, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Just curious... what is it that makes Mango Haze lean further? I always thought SSH was just Nevs x Nevs.. no?


SSH is only 50% haze 
Skunk x Haze C x (Northern Lights#5 x Haze C ) 
haze C is a male and the result of the cross of 2 pure haze plants

mango haze and SSH have the same male parent
the female used in the cross to create mango haze was also the sister of the female used to create SSH
this female was more sativa leaning than the female used for SSH resulting in offspring that tend to lean more towards the sativa side 

nevs haze is 75% haze (nl5 x haze A) X haze c 
both haze A and c are males

tom hills haze is and was the best bet for something less jungle from the o-haze or 100% haze line 
peace


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 28, 2013)

UB & UB on the same thread is this a glitch in the matrix ?


----------



## UncleBuck (Aug 29, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> UB & UB on the same thread is this a glitch in the matrix ?


my spidey sense of blatant racism was tingling, just had to check in


----------



## its a hobby honey ! (Aug 29, 2013)

UncleBuck said:


> my spidey sense of blatant racism was tingling, just had to check in



lol ....................


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 29, 2013)

budman111 said:


> A racist from the good ol south of the US of fucking A...NEVER!


Will Scotland really be given power to govern herself 
that will be quite interesting if it happens

sorry i don't watch the news lol


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 29, 2013)

Fuck , i bet Sean Connery has made an important announcement from Spain about this and i have missed it
on second thoughts Sean is still alive i take it ?


----------



## potroastV2 (Aug 29, 2013)

Blaze31 said:


> Well I'm done with this thread and it should be deleted at least the last few pages. I don't get people these days. If you don't like what ya read find another thread that's why there's plenty of them or make your own. I read and take from other what I want but if you gotta start saying the stuff that's being said I'm sure there's a pm button. I got a lot off this thread uncle Ben and half it was started the way it was.



Yes, I agree it's best to close the thread, since we've had to delete almost 200 offensive posts. What you're seeing is 5 or 6 children who cannot control their juvenile emotions. So I've got a message for them, if you cannot post something positive and helpful, *then don't post*. 

*If all you do is post argumentative and offensive posts, then find another forum.*


I hope you hear me Samwell Seed Well, PJ Diaz, Uncle Ben, gudkarma, patlpp, and skunkd0c.


----------



## cannawizard (Aug 29, 2013)

I agree with the penguin, y'all just need to chill out~


----------

