# STAY AWAY FROM LED's!!!!!



## agesbuds (Sep 21, 2011)

I had 8 LED pannels in my 4 by 4 tent and they didnt do their job. Super slow growth. Switched to T5"s like 3 weeks ago and now my plants grow close to 3 inches a week vs the 1'' for the first 3 weeks!!! THEY are JUNK imho. Sorry my fellow LED growers, but this was in mt experiance


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## Jack Harer (Sep 21, 2011)

Do you think that ALL LED units are trash or did you price shop? Staying away from them will only slow research and development of ever better products!
There are companies like Blackdog who have developed some pretty damn impressive units. The votes ain't all in yet, and I have yet to see the products of the units, but I AM intrigued, and believe that they are the future. Just not the immediate one.


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## hoss12781 (Sep 21, 2011)

check my journal man, its in my signature. I'm very happy with my leds. Which brand did you use and how did you have them set up. From the sound of your first post I would wager you had a bunch of low wattage panels which do suck and should be avoided at all costs. They are the reason this tech gets a bad name. Real LED grow lights cost real money. Anything not throwing out at least 2w per diode is going to be shitty, anything using automotive grade leds is probably going to suck, and any unit that doesn't toss out at least 100w of actual led output, not total chip capacity is probably going to be weak sacue as well.

Please elaborate on your experience.


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## Jack Harer (Sep 21, 2011)

One of the very few things in the cultivation of MJ where you actually DO get what you pay for.


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## hoss12781 (Sep 21, 2011)

indeed, I was on the led hate wagon for a minute after I bought some of the shitty screw in leds from HTG supply a couple years back. Heat was becoming a major issue in the summer months and after doing a lot of research found a brand that has worked well for me. It's all about brand of diode used, using correct nm, and the strength to which the diodes are driven. What most people don't get is that the average 3w diode is only driven to about 2.1w of actual output - driving a led to full capacity makes it fry out super quick. The use of step down transformers is what protects the lamps longevity. Cost me about a grand to replace 2 400w hps lights and a ton of cfl side lighting but my temps are now a non issue, my power bill is way lower going from about 1300w to 690w, and the harvest quality has improved without sacrificing weight.


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## vilify (Sep 21, 2011)

ive got 4+ inches in the last week with 1 of my plants in veg. and its an indica... lol


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## Carne Seca (Sep 21, 2011)

You get what you pay for.


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## Jack Harer (Sep 21, 2011)

Thank you for that informative post. I'm sorta kicking around the idea of a couple of these:

http://www.blackdogled.com/products/bd1300

or about 6 of these:

http://www.blackdogled.com/products/bd450

Sorta like using multiple 600s as opposed to 1 1K. What do YOU think??
or


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## NewGrowth (Sep 21, 2011)

LED's are bad for your eyes and Plants :: I'm more interested in new HID technology. Ceramic metal halide, plasma discharge ect.


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## VILEPLUME (Sep 21, 2011)

agesbuds said:


> I had 8 LED pannels in my 4 by 4 tent and they didnt do their job. Super slow growth. Switched to T5"s like 3 weeks ago and now my plants grow close to 3 inches a week vs the 1'' for the first 3 weeks!!! THEY are JUNK imho. Sorry my fellow LED growers, but this was in mt experiance


Wow, switching to T5's to get better growth, that is bad.


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## Jack Harer (Sep 21, 2011)

*LED's are bad for your eyes and Plants :




*

Please don't come here and categorically state things like that without citing references. Where did you get that info?? First I've heard about that. BTW< HIDs are bad as well. MH produces MAD amounts of UVB, as does plasma MH, but a normal MH bulb has filters built in. Plasma has no such protection AFIK. They are used by growers who want to expose plants to UVB as a way to increase THC.


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## NewGrowth (Sep 21, 2011)

Yah I second that one t5's are crap


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## hoss12781 (Sep 21, 2011)

I think it is better, if you're going led to have more smaller wattage (130-200w) output vs one large 700w unit. It allows for a modular set up. When one plant is done I can re-arrange the lights and blast the hell out of the remaining plants. Remember with led the diodes produce what they produce, on a 3w chipset probably in the nieghborhood of 2.1w of output. It doesn't matter how many you have the light will only travel so far with the maximum intensity. I have about 700w of led in my garden, this is broken down between 5 different lights.


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## Jack Harer (Sep 21, 2011)

That was what I was thinking!! Thanx again!!


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## VILEPLUME (Sep 21, 2011)

I like a good 400w MH for veg. Bright enough but not too bright so it burns your plants.


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## hoss12781 (Sep 21, 2011)

NewGrowth said:


> LED's are bad for your eyes and Plants :: I'm more interested in new HID technology. Ceramic metal halide, plasma discharge ect.


If you're going to make an absurd claim at least try to back it up man. HID uses mercury, that is a proven poison. The spectrums you'll find on most leds are no different than those used in hid and cfl, they just aim to target specific wavelengths. If you can point me to some scientific proof of your claim consider me punked.


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## M.Swills (Sep 21, 2011)

VILEPLUME said:


> Wow, switching to T5's to get better growth, that is bad.


No idea what your talking about. I had a very successful grow using T5's.


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## Jack Harer (Sep 21, 2011)

T5s beat out CFLs every time I used them


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## Clonex (Sep 21, 2011)

LED's are only comparable to CFL type lighting / to compare them to HID lighting is ridiculous, however much the panel cost, they have there uses but comparisons make me laugh, peace


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## hoss12781 (Sep 21, 2011)

Clonex said:


> LED's are only comparable to CFL type lighting / to compare them to HID lighting is ridiculous, however much the panel cost, they have there uses but comparisons make me laugh, peace


Awesome, just what this board needs - more people shitting on leds. Have you used them Clonex, if so which brands/wattage and how did you have them set up? If you haven't don't blindly re-iterate what other people have said without speaking from personal experience. It doesn't further the conversation.


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## Jack Harer (Sep 21, 2011)

Clonex said:


> LED's are only comparable to CFL type lighting / to compare them to HID lighting is ridiculous, however much the panel cost, they have there uses but comparisons make me laugh, peace



Dude, where in the hell do you get that information?? LED light has FAR greater intensity than HIDs, and far greater penetration. Comparing LEDs to CFLs is like comparing the sun to a flashlight bulb!!
I am not currently using LEDs, but I _HAVE_ done my research so that I might make an intelligent decision about them. I do not advocate them or bash them, what I do NOT do is state incorrect info.


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## NewGrowth (Sep 21, 2011)

I love how I always have to back up my claims but no one else does. Then we got this dude who has not even used LEDs arguing. LED is junk, if you can't control heat you have improper ventilation. How's this? I have REAL WORLD experience with t5's, HID, and LED's. For the price of the led lights you could buy a small HID and all the fan's, ect you need.

So how does a so called 'pro' grower examine lighting?
Efficiency vs Cost

Led's are by far the wost, reduced yield and high cost.

T5's are the 'middle' ground reduced yeild, poor penetration, higher cost per watt than HID

Now the winner is HID. Why? A 400w HPS puts out more light with greater penetration than an 8 tube t5. If the bulb is exposed it puts off less heat as well. Want to know the kicker? It uses less wattage than the 8tube!

So what are t5's and LED's for?
Growing at home in a really small space (a closet can easily accommodate a 400w hps). They are also a marketing ploy, this stuff is VERY cheap to manufacture. You just pay the 'gimmick' tax.

You are more than welcome to spend thousands on LED's while skimping on other equally important factors in grow space design. Not me though


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## Jack Harer (Sep 21, 2011)

I'll go with you on the cost of HID vs the cost of LED. No question, and that has never been disputed. But to categorically state that the output of an LED is no more than, or comparable to that of a CFL is absurdity at it's finest. Obviously you haven't done YOUR homework. You act like you are the only one with real world experience with lights. HIDs (which I now use, and have for several years) are far more cost effective in the short term. This thread, however had NOTHING to do with cost effectiveness, rather the effectiveness of LEDs themselves. The votes are not all in, and I am becoming more convinced by the day that they have real applicability to this field. If those of us who CAN afford them choose to do so, why does that aggravate you?
The OP stated that LEDs were crap, and we were trying to figure out WHY he said that. Nobody is questioning the high cost of them. But if nobody even TRIED them, how is that technology to progress? There are some real breakthroughs being made here, and LED technology is NOT going to fade away.
MY own personal reservation is the whole spectrum specific way they approach this. I believe (until proven wrong) that a full spectrum of light is needed to effectively grow pot, or anything else for that matter. But one cannot discount offhand the results people like Hoss are getting. Thats why it is called objective research.


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## NewGrowth (Sep 21, 2011)

So the stealth grow SG 1202 is probably the best LED grow light on the market.
Cost: $3,120!
For that price I can buy 15 full 1000w set-ups (ballast, socket set, bulb). Somehow I think 15,000w of HPS will grow more bud than one SG 1202 . . .


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## Jack Harer (Sep 21, 2011)

No doubt about the high price. But the effectiveness of LEDs and the resulting yields are the subject of this debate. I want to see your evidence that LEDS have inferior light output. That is what got MY goat. Christ, an LED is a mini _SUN_ for Christs sake. Why do you think that technology is even moving in that direction in all lighting fields??


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## NewGrowth (Sep 21, 2011)

I never compared LED to CFL lighting. Now just like everyone, when presented with apparent facts you decide to have an 'emotional' response.

When you can sell me an LED that can spread light over 365 degrees, is as effective in REAL professional grow rooms, and costs the same as a 1,000w set- up I will buy it.

Get your own evidence, grow with LED's and HID's. Then come back and have this same agument with me 

Ps- Nothing compares to the sun. Comparing LED's to the sun is just silly. Grow outside and tell me that again


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## Jack Harer (Sep 21, 2011)

My comments were directed (at first) to Clonex, so lets get THAT outta the way. It was him/her that compared CFLs to LEDs. Now then, you are 100% right that LEDs are directional. This can be a mixed blessing. For the vast majority of hobbyist and small professional growers, this translates into more effective use of light.
I have never grown with LEDs nor have I claimed to, hence this erstwhile civil discussion. I do, however, respect the opinions of those who have (and have the results to back that up), and thats the kind of stuff pertinent to this discussion/thread. The whole an LED is a mini sun thing was allegorical, and you must have taken that literally. WOW.
It's obvious you have issues with LEDs, and you are entitled to them. You grow vertical, and LEDs are definitely not for you.(Impressive grow in your journal, BTW) But please refrain from unsubstantiated bashing of them here as we are trying to find out why the OP has the opinion he does. As far as my "emotional" response, that would be contingent upon the fact that I care about what you think, which I do not. If you want a rational discussion of WHY you don't like them, then I'm all ears, as would most of the participants of the thread


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## sen.c (Sep 21, 2011)

Could just be cheap chinese junk LED or maybe the growth from the T5 is really stretching.


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## Clonex (Sep 21, 2011)

hoss12781 said:


> Awesome, just what this board needs - more people shitting on leds. Have you used them Clonex, if so which brands/wattage and how did you have them set up? If you haven't don't blindly re-iterate what other people have said without speaking from personal experience. It doesn't further the conversation.


My words were "led's are not comparable to HID's" freedom of opinion, you have mine - put your chest away -


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## Clonex (Sep 21, 2011)

Jack Harer said:


> Dude, where in the hell do you get that information?? LED light has FAR greater intensity than HIDs, and far greater penetration. Comparing LEDs to CFLs is like comparing the sun to a flashlight bulb!!
> I am not currently using LEDs, but I _HAVE_ done my research so that I might make an intelligent decision about them. I do not advocate them or bash them, what I do NOT do is state incorrect info.


you keep telling yourself that - its my opinion - calm yourself, ive used both.


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## Clonex (Sep 21, 2011)

Jack Harer said:


> My comments were directed (at first) to Clonex, so lets get THAT outta the way. It was him/her that compared CFLs to LEDs. Now then, you are 100% right that LEDs are directional. This can be a mixed blessing. For the vast majority of hobbyist and small professional growers, this translates into more effective use of light.
> I have never grown with LEDs nor have I claimed to, hence this erstwhile civil discussion. I do, however, respect the opinions of those who have (and have the results to back that up), and thats the kind of stuff pertinent to this discussion/thread. The whole an LED is a mini sun thing was allegorical, and you must have taken that literally. WOW.
> It's obvious you have issues with LEDs, and you are entitled to them. You grow vertical, and LEDs are definitely not for you.(Impressive grow in your journal, BTW) But please refrain from unsubstantiated bashing of them here as we are trying to find out why the OP has the opinion he does. As far as my "emotional" response, that would be contingent upon the fact that I care about what you think, which I do not. If you want a rational discussion of WHY you don't like them, then I'm all ears, as would most of the participants of the thread


Direct what you like at Clonex , im not here for a fight , ive done the trials and my OPINION is they are not comparable. ty


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## Jack Harer (Sep 21, 2011)

That sounded bad. it was meant to be "an answer to you" not the argumentative guy who butted in. You are right of course, that LEDs cost more than HID, but from_ what I have gleaned_ from all my research, they will eventually replace HIDs, and watt for watt they are more than capable of replacing them now.


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## Clonex (Sep 21, 2011)

Jack Harer said:


> That sounded bad. it was meant to be "an answer to you" not the argumentative guy who butted in. You are right of course, that LEDs cost more than HID, but from_ what I have gleaned_ from all my research, they will eventually replace HIDs, and watt for watt they are more than capable of replacing them now.


And thats your opinion and sorry if i jumped a bit , but i have used both , not the led's you buy off Ebay either , and my main issue was coverage and penetration. They have their advantages i agree , in stealth situations and they produce less heat and are cheaper to run, but in my opinion because of the lack of coverage large scale growers cannot use them, its not personal , just this is how it worked for me ....


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## Jack Harer (Sep 21, 2011)

And I can respect the hell outta that!!


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## dannyboy602 (Sep 21, 2011)

Stay away from LED's? Oooooh scare tactics. New technology comes along and some people get excited and some people get defensive. Pity. But someone said here it may be bad for you? Or your eyes? Or something to that effect. I've been wearing sunglasses in my led area because of nausea. But aside from that I don't worry...pfft..I already have skin cancer anyway.


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## NewGrowth (Sep 21, 2011)

There was no 'unsubstantiated bashing'. On too many levels LEDs are the worst choice for an indoor grow room. The yeild just does not compare, sorry I've seen it with all of them! Yeild has a direct correlation to the health of the plant. If you are getting crappy yields your plants are unhealthy. LEDs and t5's grow plants in what I refer to as 'stasis' most of the time. HID exhibits by far the most impressive growth rate and healthiest plants. Now none of these even compare to the sun! When putting a plant from HID into sunlight it needs to be shaded and acclimated to the intensity of the sunlight. If the plants are not acclimated in shade the leaves bleach and die. Plants grown in sunlight are by far the healthiest, strongest, and fastest growing plants.
Indoors the best we can do is maximize the amount of light the plants receive, LED's provide a poor option. You said it yourself, vertical growing. It's the closest we can get to 'outdoor' conditions indoors 

For the record nothing I have stated about LED's is unsubstantiated. All statements are based on real experience.


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## curly604 (Sep 21, 2011)

check your self man its becuase you had shitty led's  not cause led's dont work


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## cannabis420420 (Sep 21, 2011)

agesbuds said:


> I had 8 LED pannels in my 4 by 4 tent and they didnt do their job. Super slow growth. Switched to T5"s like 3 weeks ago and now my plants grow close to 3 inches a week vs the 1'' for the first 3 weeks!!! THEY are JUNK imho. Sorry my fellow LED growers, but this was in mt experiance


some led's don't work you have to find the right ones but i prefer hps &mh


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## NewGrowth (Sep 21, 2011)

I think people mistake 'gentlemanly augment' AKA debate as a 'fight'. I do not however nor do I believe that JackHerer thinks it's a fight. Nothing wrong with rational discussion of marketing ploys , I was having a great time one he 'mighty wash' thread the other day. Did you know mighty wash is 99.9% water and kills all mites!?

Want to know how to identify a good product?
People use it often because of the value it transmits. Not saying it's not possible to build an LED that can compare to HPS, more so challenging people to build that better product. No one has done so yet.


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## Clonex (Sep 22, 2011)

its quite simple really-large scale growers cannot get away with leds, not enough coverage/penatration , stealth cabinet growers can use leds, they have no heat issues and there cheap to run. is this not obvious to everyone ?
there is no point comparing !!! jesus already! peace


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## dannyboy602 (Sep 22, 2011)

Well this has been a good read. Both pro and con and I think I might have learned something positive. I'm glad there was a debate. I need to know the truth. I will continue to "sit on the fence" until my LED grow is complete. At the same time I'm ordering seeds for my 2x1000 watters area. And I wanna do more research on Autos...


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## sen.c (Sep 22, 2011)

Kinda hard to argue with these results.

http://youtu.be/xm8vgHznTkg


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## fssalaska (Sep 22, 2011)

LEDs are shit ! will try again in 10 years. My experience with them > https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/405548-test-grow-mh-sunshine-90w.html#post5257265
Don't get me wrong you can grow with them but I just grow A+++ shit I don't have time for shit weed, To hard to move it.

I know the LEDer's are going to say " but but but " but my ass, I know what I saw with my own eyes.

Not that *hard to argue with these results*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv4b47pRMhA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7Weu61rrBk&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3XH-_2GhaM&feature=related


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## Brianjox (Sep 22, 2011)

My 2 Bits !!!Agreed. TODAY Led can not compete ,down the road led will be the norm. A 1000w sodium light will product more quality and quanity then LED. Not even close in a 6 month test, that I did on equal conditions.
Yes electricity is more but you get more. The future may not be LED for growing as I've seen the new laser lights operate, made just for growing application. Was impressive.
Thanks from Vernon BC email for more.


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## Jack Harer (Sep 22, 2011)

fssalaska said:


> LEDs are shit ! will try again in 10 years. My experience with them > https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/405548-test-grow-mh-sunshine-90w.html#post5257265
> Don't get me wrong you can grow with them but I just grow A+++ shit I don't have time for shit weed, To hard to move it.
> 
> I know the LEDer's are going to say " but but but " but my ass, I know what I saw with my own eyes.
> ...



Son, you _AIN'T_ the only one out there growing A+++ weed, my friend. So your being on your high horse and condescending tone isn't necessary here. I am also looking at LEDs, and I hear both sides. I look at what the nay sayers used as equipment as a major determinant. The high cost of these quality units preclude the average user, and has bred a market for cheap knock offs. I'm finding that most (NOT all) of the naysayers were also price shoppers. THe numbers and specs of truly high quality LED units are impressive. The cost factor still gives me tha jitters, but I believe that they can and do compete very well with HID lights, and the running costs (considering all factors, less need for AC, actual elect. usage etc.) puts them ahead of the game. I hear all sorts of Name brands being bandied about, but there are so many others out there I do NOT hear mentioned. take a look here:

http://www.blackdogled.com/products/bd1300


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## puffenuff (Sep 22, 2011)

My leds rock. My grows are top shelf quality. I'm getting more grams per dollar spent on power than with my hps grows. I didn't have to buy extra equipment. I don't have to buy replacement bulbs every 4 months anymore. I don't have to run my a/c all the time anymore. I don't have to worry about risk of fire or shattered bulbs. I am able to target specific wavelengths to achieve desirable effects. I am a proud led grower.


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## Jack Harer (Sep 22, 2011)

We have a new paradigm...........Gram per Dollar!! I like it alot!!! It's every bit as useful as gram per watt!! +Rep!!


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## Clonex (Sep 22, 2011)

different strategies work for different ppl in different enviorments with different strains! phew!!! there i covered it


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## Sweet'nHeavy (Sep 22, 2011)

I just don't think the technology is there yet. Of all the lights they are the one area that has the biggest opportunity for innovation though, which is exciting. I'm glad there are growers out there backing LEDs without you guys they won't get better. Shit in 5 years everyone on here may be using LEDs, who knows.


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## hoss12781 (Sep 22, 2011)

smurfberry autoflower led start to finish. Just as much weight as hps auto grows I've done and the quality is amazing. Nugs in the mason jar lid are Sweet Caramel which also turned out great and netted 45g dried. Some leds are shitty, some are not. The tiny plant was a MI-5, the long nugs hanging are the smurfberry.


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## Clonex (Sep 22, 2011)

Obviously led's can be very close to autogrows ?? as there short? but in reality a large scale grower will not waste time with led's ?? simply not enough coverage ??? it really is not rocket science is it ?? why do ppl get so uppity about lights for god sakes ? Obviously your growing in a small area with your small plants ?? why am i the only person who can see this ???? SOMEONE show me an LED grow thats not in a box or closet ?


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## Clonex (Sep 22, 2011)

hoss12781 said:


> smurfberry autoflower led start to finish. Just as much weight as hps auto grows I've done View attachment 1800535View attachment 1800537View attachment 1800540View attachment 1800544View attachment 1800545View attachment 1800547View attachment 1800548and the quality is amazing. Nugs in the mason jar lid are Sweet Caramel which also turned out great and netted 45g dried. Some leds are shitty, some are not. The tiny plant was a MI-5, the long nugs hanging are the smurfberry.


is that a bean sprout in pic 2 ?


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## hoss12781 (Sep 22, 2011)

its scissor hash from cutting down the smurfberry this morning. Check pro source led's website. They sponsor a commercial grow in cali. Video on their site, looks like a pretty legit commercial application. They were one of the companies I was considering purchasing from when I started researching leds.


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## Clonex (Sep 22, 2011)

hoss12781 said:


> its scissor hash from cutting down the smurfberry this morning. Check pro source led's website. They sponsor a commercial grow in cali. Video on their site, looks like a pretty legit commercial application. They were one of the companies I was considering purchasing from when I started researching leds.


 Yeah ok i will have a look , please beware though , these sites are full of ppl being paid to run them and post journals , Hydroponics is a vast market, spec with the current energy costs they have an Angle to work with , i have tried both - i wont be changing from hid this decade thats for sure ...


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## Clonex (Sep 22, 2011)

And here's the thing - i would love to use LED's , no Ballasts , less heat , no red hot bulbs , less wiring , cheaper to run , so there must be an other reason right ? i think we all no what this is


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## hoss12781 (Sep 22, 2011)

to each his own brother, just wanted to share what I've seen from researching leds and using them as a former hid/cfl user.


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## Clonex (Sep 22, 2011)

Fair comment...


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## GrowinWithLEDs (Sep 22, 2011)

I gotta disagree with you my friend....I can't believe the growth with my LEDs!!!

Check out my grandpa's medical grow--he's never grown before and is getting a decent yield off of 138watts of Mikey's Grow Lights. I would agree with you, some LEDs are not very good...but you can't say ALL until you have tried them. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfHz8ivBO14


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## fssalaska (Sep 22, 2011)

Jack Harer said:


> Son, you _AIN'T_ the only one out there growing A+++ weed, my friend. So your being on your high horse and condescending tone isn't necessary here. I am also looking at LEDs, and I hear both sides. I look at what the nay sayers used as equipment as a major determinant. The high cost of these quality units preclude the average user, and has bred a market for cheap knock offs. I'm finding that most (NOT all) of the naysayers were also price shoppers. THe numbers and specs of truly high quality LED units are impressive. The cost factor still gives me tha jitters, but I believe that they can and do compete very well with HID lights, and the running costs (considering all factors, less need for AC, actual elect. usage etc.) puts them ahead of the game. I hear all sorts of Name brands being bandied about, but there are so many others out there I do NOT hear mentioned. take a look here:
> 
> http://www.blackdogled.com/products/bd1300


 Yes my horse is high also !!! My tone? condescending, lmao I don't think so I'm just stating a fact of what I have seen in my personal experience as in I bought some led light and feel I got butt raped and sick of reading post about people telling how there shit yes shit 90 watt led lights rewrote the how twos of weed growing. 
Fined a new way to talk shit.


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## skunkd0c (Sep 22, 2011)

HIDs grow excellent weed for a cheap setup, if something is not broken why try to fix it ? 

although if i were a hipster hid's would be way to mainstream for me, i would have to choose LED'S


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## Jack Harer (Sep 22, 2011)

fssalaska,
Once you've ran the gamut and used every unit out there and STILL say that LEDS suck, then MAYBE I'd listen to ya. Perhaps you should have done some research on each and every unit out there, and sought out some peeps growing with them for their input and THEN made a decision to buy, you MIGHT have a different opinion, or at the very least a more open mind. It's like anything else, one or two bad units that don't meet your expectations does not mean that all units are junk. I'm saying this, and I'm still dubious myself!!! But I aint gonna come out bashing unless I had absolute first hand knowledge that ALL units were bad. I can't afford that kind of research, so I'll rely more on others who have used them in their own personal gardens to guide me.


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## Clonex (Sep 22, 2011)

Jack Harer said:


> fssalaska,
> Once you've ran the gamut and used every unit out there and STILL say that LEDS suck, then MAYBE I'd listen to ya. Perhaps you should have done some research on each and every unit out there, and sought out some peeps growing with them for their input and THEN made a decision to buy, you MIGHT have a different opinion, or at the very least a more open mind. It's like anything else, one or two bad units that don't meet your expectations does not mean that all units are junk. I'm saying this, and I'm still dubious myself!!! But I aint gonna come out bashing unless I had absolute first hand knowledge that ALL units were bad. I can't afford that kind of research, so I'll rely more on others who have used them in their own personal gardens to guide me.


I think he is saying even the best panels do not match HID , i think lol , his words were stronger


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## Clonex (Sep 22, 2011)

skunkd0c said:


> HIDs grow excellent weed for a cheap setup, if something is not broken why try to fix it ?
> 
> although if i were a hipster hid's would be way to mainstream for me, i would have to choose LED'S


Because science and technology moves on ? there not broken but cost alot to run ? your reason is a bit silly.


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## skunkd0c (Sep 22, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Because science and technology moves on ? there not broken but cost alot to run ? your reason is a bit silly.


your answer is very silly .. it went way over your little head 

typical hipster


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## fssalaska (Sep 22, 2011)

Jack Harer said:


> fssalaska,
> Once you've ran the gamut and used every unit out there and STILL say that LEDS suck, then MAYBE I'd listen to ya. Perhaps you should have done some research on each and every unit out there, and sought out some peeps growing with them for their input and THEN made a decision to buy, you MIGHT have a different opinion, or at the very least a more open mind. It's like anything else, one or two bad units that don't meet your expectations does not mean that all units are junk. I'm saying this, and I'm still dubious myself!!! But I aint gonna come out bashing unless I had absolute first hand knowledge that ALL units were bad. I can't afford that kind of research, so I'll rely more on others who have used them in their own personal gardens to guide me.


I have used them : https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/405548-test-grow-mh-sunshine-90w.html#post5257265 and still think bad of them.


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## RawBudzski (Sep 22, 2011)

I Vote Fail On the Current LEDs. <3
Though have high hopes for them in the near future.


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## Clonex (Sep 22, 2011)

skunkd0c said:


> your answer is very silly .. it went way over your little head
> 
> typical hipster


1 word, numpty.


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## fssalaska (Sep 22, 2011)

This is beating a dead horse, Think what you will I know what I did ! I spent alot of money on shit that did not work. (1) LEDs will grow the hell out of plants, 4 sure but they suck compared to MH for veg and they will flower your plants but know where as good as a HPS. (2) They lie like hell on the coverage of LED lights, so when you have to run 4 240 watt blackstar led lights @ 150 watts each < yah I know the numbers don't add up 240 watt is what they call it 150 watt is what it is " got me " but anyways if your running 4 to cover the same space as a 400 watt MH or HPS wheres the savings ? plus lower yields. (3) Think what makes you happy ! No sweat off my balls. Happy growing


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## skunkd0c (Sep 22, 2011)

Clonex said:


> 1 word, numpty.


That is one number and two words ... chump


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## Clonex (Sep 22, 2011)

skunkd0c said:


> That is one number and two words ... chump


 shall we start our own thread and continue this childish banter ? your statement " why fix whats not broken" is a cavemans attitude , now let flogged dogs lie eh....


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## Jack Harer (Sep 22, 2011)

Yep! This ones a grease spot!


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## SmokesLikeBob (Sep 22, 2011)

I have yet to see massive donkey dicks grown from LED's...So my vote goes to HID's...
But if the price of LED's were to drop substantially, they'll be movin' much higher on my list.


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## Jack Harer (Sep 22, 2011)

Thats what I'm waiting to see myself. I grow big assed lolli-pops. If they can do that, I'm in. At least to test the water anyway.


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## sen.c (Sep 22, 2011)

I like the ProSource Worldwide L.E.D.'s


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## sen.c (Sep 22, 2011)

I think ProSource is where I am going to for L.E.D. lights. I talked with them about six months ago and wanted to buy one of their lights and they told me that was fine but I should wait and they had some new technology coming out in a few months and it would be leaps ahead of the current model. I thought that was pretty cool of them to let me know and not just sell me one without telling me of the new model about to be released just to make a sell.


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## Corbat420 (Sep 22, 2011)

RawBudzski said:


> I Vote Fail On the Current LEDs. <3
> Though have high hopes for them in the near future.


i dont realy have any hope left for LED's. you think since 1972 they would have figured SOMETHING out with those damn things....

my hopes are in Plasma Lighting. i have heard some decent things about plasma lights.....

P.S. my 1000 MH grows my Big Bid plants an average of 2-3 inches PER DAY. screw "growth per week" i can pull a foot in a good week.......


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## sen.c (Sep 22, 2011)

_All I know is NASA uses L.E.D. technology in the space station to grow all their plants and if NASA is working with it than there has to be something there, I think the technology is there with a select few who are really trying to forward the technology rather than just have a bunch of chinese kids build a bunch to capatilize on the craze._


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## Clonex (Sep 22, 2011)

sen.c said:


> _All I know is NASA uses L.E.D. technology in the space station to grow all their plants and if NASA is working with it than there has to be something there, I think the technology is there with a select few who are really trying to forward the technology rather than just have a bunch of chinese kids build a bunch to capatilize on the craze._


It seems to me that led's are an obvious second choice and its not just in the world of green , if you look at car manufactuers they still cant use led's for the main headlight yet as not bright enough to pass safety standards , but there allowed for sidelighting and daytime lights , i think that speaks volumes.........


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## oceangreen (Sep 22, 2011)

LEDs are the only way to go. watt vs watt, blow hid out of the water. Lighter, smaller, less heat

enough said


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## Clonex (Sep 22, 2011)

oceangreen said:


> LEDs are the only way to go. watt vs watt, blow hid out of the water. Lighter, smaller, less heat
> 
> enough said


Does this include a 6x6 ft grow area ?? i think not, enough said.


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## sen.c (Sep 22, 2011)

*<h3>Vegetation & Flowering *

Model Light Distance from Plants Maximum Area Light Footprint 90W 12" - 24" 16 sq. ft. 4' x 4' 180W 12" - 36" 25 sq. ft. 5' x 5' 350W 18" - 48" 30 sq. ft. 6' x 5' 700W 24" - 60" 63 sq. ft. 9' x 7' 

Fruiting (Heavy Yield) </h3>Model Light Distance from Plants Maximum Area Light Footprint 90W 6" or closer 4 sq. ft. 2' x 2' 180W 6" - 18" 9 sq. ft. 3' x 3' 350W 6" - 18" 16 sq. ft. 4' x 4' 700W 10" - 18" 24 sq. ft. 6' x 4'


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## RawBudzski (Sep 22, 2011)

I have 1200watts of Hard working HPS & MH Power 6-8 inches from my babies. You cannot beat that with LED. <3


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## chickengutz (Sep 22, 2011)

I've seen a lot of folks get ass fucked with LED's, I would love to grow cooler, and cheaper, with mad ass yields, but until the market straightens itself out, I just don't have any interest in spending X number of dollars, and praying that I'm not wasting months of my time. Kudos to those of you who are doing so. I believe LEDs are the future, but right now I don't believe they are my future.


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## stonepwny (Sep 22, 2011)

So im brand new to this, i was thinking...can i use a 90 watt led for 1-2 plants and maybe add 3-4 20watt halogen lights for heat? or i have a aero garden...and led aero garden mixes??


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## NewGrowth (Sep 22, 2011)

I can still grow more "grams per dollar" with HID lights. The saving on electric would take several years to pay for the costly LEDs. I want to run my A/C most the time. In fact we size the A/C unit based on the number of lights (sealed environment agriculture). New units are great! Dehumidifies and runs all the air through a UV-C lit box.

I'm willing to bet I can produce near ten times what an LED grower can on the same budget. If you are an LED grower that thinks he's getting more 'grams per dollar' you're doing your math wrong ::

If anybody wants to take me up on the 'LED challenge' I'm willing to set up a 'pro' grow room specifically to prove my point. If I lose I will personally by the winner a top of the line LED lighting system ($3,500).


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## bob harris (Sep 23, 2011)

The anti led people just don't understand how leds work. Now, I do think that led technology has a ways to go...but it has many advantages.

Watt for watt leds out perform hid..no question. I'll use 1000 watts of led, you use 1000 watt of hid. Cost of the leds will SUCK however. 
Of course, you'll be spending $4400 over the next ten years replacing your hortilux bulb..(you DO replace it every 4 grows or so, don't you?)
And you'll be spending another $3600 on cooling that I don't have to worry about in that 10 years (that's at $30 a month..probably low) And my co2 will work better without having to vent it out with the heat...Led's make lots of sense..if you think long term.

The problem is that people want 90 watts of led to equal 400 watts of hid..that doesn't happen. I give 90 watts of led about 200watts of hid value. but the hid has a bigger foot print. So I'll need 5 led's to cover a square meter pretty well...same as a 400hid. Now we are at 450 watts of led vs 400 watts of hid. 

Remember, hid lighting wasn't invented for plants. Even the hortilux isn't really putting out a great percentage of USABLE light. But it does put out MORE light. The key is getting enough led lighting to put out ENOUGH light. To do that, you need multiple units of led..and the cost is prohibitive for most.

20 years from now, no one will use HID. Led prices will come down, they will have the correct colors dialed in, and LED's will be the shit.


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## Orithil (Sep 23, 2011)

I think the sun is the best light. Outside of that things get very specific based on setups. LEDs have potential for small indoor grows, and for some people that's great. I for one can't wait until LEDs are affordable enough for me to get something decent for doing a 2 plant thing, you know, because regular bulbs are hot, they explode, you need to have some elaborate setup for cooling..it's a bit messier.


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## NewGrowth (Sep 23, 2011)

I don't use hortilux lamps and your math is way off, an HPS bulb costs me $20 . . .
LED's still don't make sense long term. I can spend $100,000 on solar equipment and neve buy power again, within 20 years or so I'll recoup my investment.
OR
I can take that $100,000 build a grow room, allow $1k/mo for electrical expenses. Within three months I will make back my $100,000. In a year I will make somewhere around 4x my initial investment.
Now if I think 'long term' like you said and maintain my grow, the $100k in 20years will net $10M!!

So what's better 'saving' $100k or making $10M?


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## cannawizard (Sep 23, 2011)

bob harris said:


> The anti led people just don't understand how leds work. Now, I do think that led technology has a ways to go...but it has many advantages.
> 
> Watt for watt leds out perform hid..no question. I'll use 1000 watts of led, you use 1000 watt of hid. Cost of the leds will SUCK however.
> Of course, you'll be spending $4400 over the next ten years replacing your hortilux bulb..(you DO replace it every 4 grows or so, don't you?)
> ...


*i still have betamax and VHS tapes.. aahh.. those were the days.. NOT, ..glad dont have to lug those ugly things around, cds much cooler 

--why grow under tech from the 1960s? ..eehh.. growing under street post lighting seems a bit old... couple more years, hoping for HID Sr's back to give out soon.. lol

tootles


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## collective gardener (Sep 23, 2011)

Maybe someday LED's can compete with HID's...but today is not the day. I'm still waiting to see just one nice sized commercial grow op running LED's to produce HID quality buds. All I hear is about all the great PAR numbers and the like. Nobody wants a new lighting choice more than myself and the other commercial growers in my group. But, it's just not there yet. I don't like needing 64,000btu A/C units, but I don't have a choice. We're getting ready to add 20 more lights to our bloom room and I've been holding off in the hopes of LED or induction producing a light that can do what my HPS's do. But, it's just not happening. When we add it will be flip boxes and 20 more HPS's. There is a reason that every commercial op you see is lit with HPS's. If LED's could do the job, we'd all be running them. Maybe they're ok for a closet grow, but they have no place in a production facility.


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## bob harris (Sep 23, 2011)

NewGrowth said:


> I don't use hortilux lamps and your math is way off, an HPS bulb costs me $20 . . .
> LED's still don't make sense long term. I can spend $100,000 on solar equipment and neve buy power again, within 20 years or so I'll recoup my investment.
> OR
> I can take that $100,000 build a grow room, allow $1k/mo for electrical expenses. Within three months I will make back my $100,000. In a year I will make somewhere around 4x my initial investment.
> ...


My math was off..only $1200 for a hotilux per year over 10 years...and if your using $20 bulbs..well, good luck with that.


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## NewGrowth (Sep 23, 2011)

Ten years is a long time bob . . . Hey I've been growing cannabis for over ten years!  
I've used hotilux, digilux, ect. The bulbs I buy are great they have the same spectrum and yield as much. I'm still willing to spend $12,000 over ten years to make $10M.
When LED technology is 'there' I will expound the benifts everywhere I go. Until then my bet is on the new plasma technology; my money in HID.


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## bob harris (Sep 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Maybe someday LED's can compete with HID's...but today is not the day. I'm still waiting to see just one nice sized commercial grow op running LED's to produce HID quality buds. All I hear is about all the great PAR numbers and the like. Nobody wants a new lighting choice more than myself and the other commercial growers in my group. But, it's just not there yet. I don't like needing 64,000btu A/C units, but I don't have a choice. We're getting ready to add 20 more lights to our bloom room and I've been holding off in the hopes of LED or induction producing a light that can do what my HPS's do. But, it's just not happening. When we add it will be flip boxes and 20 more HPS's. There is a reason that every commercial op you see is lit with HPS's. If LED's could do the job, we'd all be running them. Maybe they're ok for a closet grow, but they have no place in a production facility.


I agree, for big grows leds are out of sight pricey. But for a guy flowering 6 plants at a time....he might be ok.
I think leds are certainly the future.and today is not that day...just sayin..they have some advatages.

I use 2 600watt hps over 6 plants..but I'm adding 4, 100 watt led's for supplemental lighting. Should reduce my cooling costs ( I'll raise the hps some) Less radiant heat should lower soil surface temps, allowing less water use, and allowing the root mass to expand into the upper layer of soil. Should be able to further reduce stretch too.

But I'm retired, got the money to blow, and like to experiment. And my goal is to produce quality..quantity is secondary. I grow sativa for medical purposes (parkinson's) and need high thc/thcv values....low cb values. I use a ton of uvb the final few weeks as well...my strain produces a very motivating effect....no "couchlock" effect at all..but still enough cb value to relieve rigidity...and the theory is that thcv acts a a dopamine regulator...and dopamine is what needs regulating in PD...get the dopamine regulated and mood, "affect" and motivation all improve. At least for me...and roughly 70% of all other PD patients...

Now, if I were a stoner growin "pain" meds..well I'd grow an indica. Less light needed, bigger yields, faster flower times...and much easier to care for. But sativas are the "stuff"...for me.


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## collective gardener (Sep 23, 2011)

bob harris said:


> I agree, for big grows leds are out of sight pricey. But for a guy flowering 6 plants at a time....he might be ok.
> I think leds are certainly the future.and today is not that day...just sayin..they have some advatages.
> 
> I use 2 600watt hps over 6 plants..but I'm adding 4, 100 watt led's for supplemental lighting. Should reduce my cooling costs ( I'll raise the hps some) Less radiant heat should lower soil surface temps, allowing less water use, and allowing the root mass to expand into the upper layer of soil. Should be able to further reduce stretch too.
> ...


Bob, maybe I wasn't clear. The price is not the problem...not by a long shot. 20 new HID's would cost me a little under 10K if I didn't have the flip option. I would gladly spend 40k if I could get that same performance from an LED or induction light. Quality wise, myself, and the dispensaries I deal with, like good sized dense buds. Most LED only buds I've seen have been a tad fluffy.

NEWGROWTH, I assure you, my friend, that $1,000/month of electricity will not give you $33,000 worth of buds per month. This would be doubly true using $20 bulbs. I didn't know people actually bought those things.


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## NewGrowth (Sep 23, 2011)

What sativa's are you growing Bob? Recently grew some Serious bubblegum, kidna reminded me of C99. Nice up high and finished in about 9weeks give or take.
Collective: you're right on that one I spent $1500/mo for just 10k watts in a warehouse. We have an extra cheap rate here now though in our new place. The power company is a co-op and most of what we get is solar. I'm running over 20k watts for $700/mo!! Pretty stoked, prior to that I was filling a gas generator . . .
Ps- bulbs cost $20 because I buy bulk manufacture direct. I believe they retail for around $100/ea well after they're re-branded


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## bob harris (Sep 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Bob, maybe I wasn't clear. The price is not the problem...not by a long shot. 20 new HID's would cost me a little under 10K if I didn't have the flip option. I would gladly spend 40k if I could get that same performance from an LED or induction light. Quality wise, myself, and the dispensaries I deal with, like good sized dense buds. Most LED only buds I've seen have been a tad fluffy.
> 
> NEWGROWTH, I assure you, my friend, that $1,000/month of electricity will not give you $33,000 worth of buds per month. This would be doubly true using $20 bulbs. I didn't know people actually bought those things.


I understood your point...and I know how the dispensary like their meds..bag appeal..and until they can manufacture led's systems with enough penetration power, you won't get the density and cluster size that dispensaries prefer. It's why i pointed out I'm keeping the 50 watts psf of HPS.
Eventually, they will need to develop high enough wattage, correct spectrum diodes for penetration. 

No kiddin on the electric usage , I use $450 a month (house and grow) flowering 6 plants....you wanna grow WHAT for $1100 a month...


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## collective gardener (Sep 23, 2011)

NewGrowth said:


> What sativa's are you growing Bob? Recently grew some Serious bubblegum, kidna reminded me of C99. Nice up high and finished in about 9weeks give or take.
> Collective: you're right on that one I spent $1500/mo for just 10k watts in a warehouse. We have an extra cheap rate here now though in our new place. The power company is a co-op and most of what we get is solar. I'm running over 20k watts for $700/mo!! Pretty stoked, prior to that I was filling a gas generator . . .
> Ps- bulbs cost $20 because I buy bulk manufacture direct. I believe they retail for around $100/ea well after they're re-branded


 
I'm jealous of those power rates. I, too, run 20k, and my power bill is always around $2,000.

I've been using Digilux bulbs now for about 6 months. I just tested them today, and they've only lost 5% lumens on the light meter. I am super stoked. I've used Hortis my whole life and never had that performance.


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## GunRunner (Sep 23, 2011)

Lot's of brands out there, lots of small time makers too, and lots of cheap scam-like deals On LED arrays made in China as far as I have read the last couple of years. We've all seen successful LED grows and we've seen bad ones. 

I think the main problem with LEDs is that it's a relatively new technology introduced to growers and the fact that it doesn't take much technical knowledge to go into the business of making LED panels, BUT, it does take some technical "KNOW-HOW" to make a solid performance panel. And this is why in my opinion a lot of makers get it wrong.

Hell it might be the future, but for now it's still a niche as far as I'm concerned.

P.S: I've never used LEDs and don't intend to bash them or anything, just my 2 cents.


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## collective gardener (Sep 23, 2011)

bob harris said:


> I understood your point...and I know how the dispensary like their meds..bag appeal..and until they can manufacture led's systems with enough penetration power, you won't get the density and cluster size that dispensaries prefer. It's why i pointed out I'm keeping the 50 watts psf of HPS.
> Eventually, they will need to develop high enough wattage, correct spectrum diodes for penetration.
> 
> No kiddin on the electric usage , I use $450 a month (house and grow) flowering 6 plants....you wanna grow WHAT for $1100 a month...


I really want LEDs to get to the point where we can use them. The cooling component of my power bill is probably $400+. You take that out and the bulb changes, before long I'd save enough money to repay just about any initial purchase price for the LEDs. I have a feeling induction lighting may actually soon surpass LEDs. If we look at what T-5's have done for flourescent lighting it's obvious that flourescent type lighting has a future.

Much of the new lighting potential will be dependant on canopy shape and plant size. About 15 years ago I grew a 4x8 test tray of Northern Lights. I planted 9 plants per sq ft in 4" rockwool blocks. The plants were only vegged to 6" tall. At completion they were under 12". BUT, that tray yielded just under 5lbs! My point is, it doesn't take much light penetration to grow a highly productive canopy like that one. Current LED and/or induction lighting might be able to pull that off. Unfortunately, my current op is legal and I have plant count to consider. 288 plants in one 4x8 tray would use almost my whole limit in 1/6th my bloom room space. With plant count limitations we're seeing bigger and bigger plants. This is going the other direction from what LED and induction would be good for. In fact, I think plants may be getting bigger faster than LEDs are getting brighter. LOL.


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## NewGrowth (Sep 23, 2011)

Yah the bulbs are mostly manufactured in china now. All the high end ones with a few exceptions made in Germany, USA, and Japan. The trend has been overwhelmingly to china however and the quality is often just as high. I would have to do some checking but I could probably find the Digilux plant in China. R&M just designed an excellent bulb. Chinese manufacturers are not to loyal to their overseas customers, here in the USA we sell brands while China sells goods. If you are an international mogul there is somebody to make anything in China, bring them the 'eye hortilux' and they will make them faster and cheaper.
I am very particular not to pay for brands because the plants don't care if there is a hologram on the box . . . BUT I so appreciate quality equipment.


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## collective gardener (Sep 23, 2011)

NewGrowth said:


> What sativa's are you growing Bob? Recently grew some Serious bubblegum, kidna reminded me of C99. Nice up high and finished in about 9weeks give or take.
> Collective: you're right on that one I spent $1500/mo for just 10k watts in a warehouse. We have an extra cheap rate here now though in our new place. The power company is a co-op and most of what we get is solar. I'm running over 20k watts for $700/mo!! Pretty stoked, prior to that I was filling a gas generator . . .
> Ps- bulbs cost $20 because I buy bulk manufacture direct. I believe they retail for around $100/ea well after they're re-branded


You have some pics of your 20K grow? You can see mine in the link with my sig.


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## NewGrowth (Sep 23, 2011)

Shut down currently, we're getting ready for the greenhouse harvest! I'll be sure to remember to show you some pics when I can use a computer  We're on the side of the mountain here, all I've got is my iPhone currently. I believe there are some older pics in my grow journal. When we are done harvesting I'll add some more pics of our vertical grows. We really enjoy this big plant indoor style! Much improved from my old days of SOG flood trays . . . I'll take 10-24oz/plant anyday!


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## bob harris (Sep 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I really want LEDs to get to the point where we can use them. The cooling component of my power bill is probably $400+. You take that out and the bulb changes, before long I'd save enough money to repay just about any initial purchase price for the LEDs. I have a feeling induction lighting may actually soon surpass LEDs. If we look at what T-5's have done for flourescent lighting it's obvious that flourescent type lighting has a future.
> 
> Much of the new lighting potential will be dependant on canopy shape and plant size. About 15 years ago I grew a 4x8 test tray of Northern Lights. I planted 9 plants per sq ft in 4" rockwool blocks. The plants were only vegged to 6" tall. At completion they were under 12". BUT, that tray yielded just under 5lbs! My point is, it doesn't take much light penetration to grow a highly productive canopy like that one. Current LED and/or induction lighting might be able to pull that off. Unfortunately, my current op is legal and I have plant count to consider. 288 plants in one 4x8 tray would use almost my whole limit in 1/6th my bloom room space. With plant count limitations we're seeing bigger and bigger plants. This is going the other direction from what LED and induction would be good for. In fact, I think plants may be getting bigger faster than LEDs are getting brighter. LOL.


Canopy shape and size is the problem with led's. Constant re adjusting of position to keep the lights close enough to work. I agree with the big plant thought too...I only get 12 total. With a permanent Mom, that's 5 in flower one batch, 6 the next. 

In a large scale grow you simply can't manage constant re positioning of lights and plants.


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## Clonex (Sep 23, 2011)

Jack Harer said:


> Thats what I'm waiting to see myself. I grow big assed lolli-pops. If they can do that, I'm in. At least to test the water anyway.


sensible statements like this make sense - lets face it , who would not want to swap from hid to led ? the advantages are obvious to everyone from Less wiring/no ballasts/cheaper to run/safer/lighter/cooler/bulbs have longer life, the problem is alot of led companys are talking bullshit for sales , would be so much better if they worked together - i for one am glad ppl are using them and giving us information that is needed , but lets face it until they fix the coverage/penatration/intensity issues we are kinda like


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## cannawizard (Sep 23, 2011)

Clonex said:


> sensible statements like this make sense - lets face it , who would not want to swap from hid to led ? the advantages are obvious to everyone from Less wiring/no ballasts/cheaper to run/safer/lighter/cooler/bulbs have longer life, the problem is alot of led companys are talking bullshit for sales , would be so much better if they worked together - i for one am glad ppl are using them and giving us information that is needed , but lets face it until they fix the coverage/penatration/intensity issues we are kinda like


*testing kessils - advLED panels - gravita/luxim/G2/solargenesis3 plasmas.. all being tested, will have write ups,  someone out there isnt just talking out of their ass.. and is actually doing the footwork instead of QQ'n 

---cheers


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## Clonex (Sep 23, 2011)

cannawizard said:


> *testing kessils - advLED panels - gravita/luxim/G2/solargenesis3 plasmas.. all being tested, will have write ups,  someone out there isnt just talking out of their ass.. and is actually doing the footwork instead of QQ'n
> 
> ---cheers


Could you throw me some links please - would love to check this stuff out , Thank you ...


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## cannawizard (Sep 23, 2011)

*just keep a look out under the AMC section of RIU..  those links should be up by the end Oct early Nov.. 

---TGIF


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## Jack Harer (Sep 23, 2011)

So there really are issues with penetration? I would have argued that point to death (And been _WRONG_. Dear God forbid). What really got me looking at them seriously was when I FINALLY bought a new QBeam for on the boat. My old one was over a million CP, and I could pick up a marker at night at about 2 miles. My NEW one was LED, and will pick up a marker at over 5 friggin' miles!!! I was assuming that it was more penetration (intensity/power) that explained that. Been wrong before, though. I'm all ears.


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## Clonex (Sep 23, 2011)

Jack Harer said:


> So there really are issues with penetration? I would have argued that point to death (And been _WRONG_. Dear God forbid). What really got me looking at them seriously was when I FINALLY bought a new QBeam for on the boat. My old one was over a million CP, and I could pick up a marker at night at about 2 miles. My NEW one was LED, and will pick up a marker at over 5 friggin' miles!!! I was assuming that it was more penetration (intensity/power) that explained that. Been wrong before, though. I'm all ears.


The light your eye can see is not the same as the light the plant uses ...


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## hoss12781 (Sep 23, 2011)

sounds like an argument for led Clonex. The leds I use have infa-red diodes that are not visible to the human eye. In terms of penetration, while I grow autos, my father doesn't. Yes my old man still grows weed. Got him to ditch his hps set up and he is very happy with the 3w diodes. I own some 1w diode leds - they pretty much suck and are only useful as side lights. 3w will fit the bill for just about anything. As cooling technology improves 5w chipsets will become standard and from working with 1, 2, and 3w diodes can say with very little doubt that even the tallest sativa plant would be just fine with penetration and coverage from those. That is, provided they are all in the correct nm spectrum, driven to the appropriate wattage percentage, and fired through the right angle viewing lens.


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## Clonex (Sep 23, 2011)

hoss12781 said:


> sounds like an argument for led Clonex. The leds I use have infa-red diodes that are not visible to the human eye. In terms of penetration, while I grow autos, my father doesn't. Yes my old man still grows weed. Got him to ditch his hps set up and he is very happy with the 3w diodes. I own some 1w diode leds - they pretty much suck and are only useful as side lights. 3w will fit the bill for just about anything. As cooling technology improves 5w chipsets will become standard and from working with 1, 2, and 3w diodes can say with very little doubt that even the tallest sativa plant would be just fine with penetration and coverage from those. That is, provided they are all in the correct nm spectrum, driven to the appropriate wattage percentage, and fired through the right angle viewing lens.


i do not get emotional about lights , i laugh when ppl get upset about their choice like its a girlfriend or something , and i am for what works , its true i am a HID user and MH for vegg , but with rising energy costs - i am also no fool , i think , small scale hobby growers should switch now , i would if i was growing stealth , there are many benefits , but for those of us with larger areas and a few more ladies, the time is not yet nigh....


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## ghb (Sep 23, 2011)

how about i just jump on in without reading the second two pages of this thread and say; try led lights at your own peril, i very nearly bought a shitload of spectra 600w led lights this year in a bid to do a cge grow, so glad i never now. i have not seen one grow where they have outperformed hid lights, irishboy included!


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## DrFever (Sep 23, 2011)

Finally someone posting a thread on real truth i am sure that LEd do grow obviously they do sire they throw off spectrums but in reality LED is like 50 years away from MH or HPS i think wow you need so many led's to make a room like lets say 12 x 20 where as i could put 5 1000 watters in there and out grow a led for like what 1200.00 how much to make 5000 watts of led ) 

i have yet to see any led grow capable of competing with MH or HPS 
here what you think of this LED guys 3 " clones transplanted and on 12 th day there like 12 to 16" high lets see a LED do this
oh led makes a thicker plant here look at this


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## Jack Harer (Sep 23, 2011)

PAR, I know. I studied light and it's properties. I was a Fine Art/Photography major (MA). I was just assuming that with such intensity, that penetration HAD to be good. I can tell ya anything you wanna know about Color temp, different light sources etc. but I'm no longer in the photographic mode. My degree is in a dead technology. (Film) When I was in school, Sony was just starting to play around with the idea of digital imaging and the Mavica. We all looked at each other, scratching our heads, asking "Why?" Who knew?


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## Corso312 (Sep 23, 2011)

NewGrowth said:


> I love how I always have to back up my claims but no one else does. Then we got this dude who has not even used LEDs arguing. LED is junk, if you can't control heat you have improper ventilation. How's this? I have REAL WORLD experience with t5's, HID, and LED's. For the price of the led lights you could buy a small HID and all the fan's, ect you need.
> 
> So how does a so called 'pro' grower examine lighting?
> Efficiency vs Cost
> ...



no chance my 8 tube t'5's 48" produce more heat than my 400 watt hps..none


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## puffenuff (Sep 23, 2011)

DrFever said:


> Finally someone posting a thread on real truth i am sure that LEd do grow obviously they do sire they throw off spectrums but in reality LED is like 50 years away from MH or HPS i think wow you need so many led's to make a room like lets say 12 x 20 where as i could put 5 1000 watters in there and out grow a led for like what 1200.00 how much to make 5000 watts of led )
> 
> i have yet to see any led grow capable of competing with MH or HPS
> here what you think of this LED guys 3 " clones transplanted and on 12 th day there like 12 to 16" high lets see a LED do this
> oh led makes a thicker plant here look at this


next time try using punctuation. I have no idea what the point you're trying to make is.


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## Clonex (Sep 23, 2011)

Corso312 said:


> no chance my 8 tube t'5's 48" produce more heat than my 400 watt hps..none


he didnt say that ?


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## collective gardener (Sep 23, 2011)

Well, gang, this thread has come closer than any to having an LED discussion without people ending up all butt-hurt and threatening others with bodily harm. The LED discussion reminds me of any talk of the West Bank. I wonder why folks get so emotional about these lights. They're just fucking lights. LOL.

I'm not a Hater, or a Lover. I'm a hoper. I hope one day these lights can actually replace HID's without a loss in yield or bud density. There are few pieces of garden equipment that look so good on paper, yet underperform in the grow room. I mean, according to the PAR numbers, a 600 watt LED should blow doors on a 1000 watt HPS. Most of us realize, that's really not the case. I wish it was.The LED Lovers are a passionate bunch...and I dig that about them. Nothing pushes progress as much as passion. Unfortunately, all the passion in the world can't seem to get these things to live up to their mathmatical potential. It really makes me question the whole PAR theory. In 20+ years of growing I've come to believe that brightness...whatever the spectrum...is needed to grow big dense buds. I mean, in theory, only about 10% of the HPS spectrum is being used, yet you can't argue with results. In theory a MH is far closer to the sun than an HPS. I've bloomed with pure MH and the results were not nearly as good as HPS. Yet, when I doubled the watts/sq ft on a MH bloom test (from 50 watts/sq ft to 100 watts/sq ft), the results were quite good. I have come to believe that the main benefit of HPS is pure brightness. I mean, that's what that light does better than anything else...makes lumens.

This is not to say that spectrum doesn't play a large role. Before the advent of blue enhanced HPS bulbs, we would run 2 HPS and 1 MH on a Sun Circle light mover for optimal results. Then the Agrosun (and later the Hortilux) bulb was introduced and we could get almost the same results with just HPS. Obviously, with more layout options. In a perfect world, I'd still add a little MH in with my blue enhanced Digilux HPS bulbs. The problem is that it's just not practical.

I agree with many of you that LED and/or induction lighting may be a better choice for closet grows. Especially if the grow is comprised of small plants in high density. I would very much like to see a 400 watt induction light over a 2' x 3' tray containing around 30 - 12" un-topped plants. I could see that tray yielding 12 ozs or so...very respectable. If you were to extrapulate that to a 4x4 tray it would be 2lbs. The problem (as I mentioned in a prior post) is plant count. If you used the same light and tray, but with just 4-5 plants, I'm certain the yield would be a fraction of what could be done with the higher density. With a 600 watt HPS and 4-5 plants in the 2x3 tray, your yield would certainly be far greater that the induction light and 4-5 plants. 

That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it! Be good, ya'all.


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## cannawizard (Sep 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Well, gang, this thread has come closer than any to having an LED discussion without people ending up all butt-hurt and threatening others with bodily harm. The LED discussion reminds me of any talk of the West Bank. I wonder why folks get so emotional about these lights. They're just fucking lights. LOL.
> 
> I'm not a Hater, or a Lover. I'm a hoper. I hope one day these lights can actually replace HID's without a loss in yield or bud density. There are few pieces of garden equipment that look so good on paper, yet underperform in the grow room. I mean, according to the PAR numbers, a 600 watt LED should blow doors on a 1000 watt HPS. Most of us realize, that's really not the case. I wish it was.The LED Lovers are a passionate bunch...and I dig that about them. Nothing pushes progress as much as passion. Unfortunately, all the passion in the world can't seem to get these things to live up to their mathmatical potential. It really makes me question the whole PAR theory. In 20+ years of growing I've come to believe that brightness...whatever the spectrum...is needed to grow big dense buds. I mean, in theory, only about 10% of the HPS spectrum is being used, yet you can't argue with results. In theory a MH is far closer to the sun than an HPS. I've bloomed with pure MH and the results were not nearly as good as HPS. Yet, when I doubled the watts/sq ft on a MH bloom test (from 50 watts/sq ft to 100 watts/sq ft), the results were quite good. I have come to believe that the main benefit of HPS is pure brightness. I mean, that's what that light does better than anything else...makes lumens.
> 
> ...


*working together solves more problems.. imo

.2s


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## Clonex (Sep 23, 2011)

Collective Gardener , have you considered running for President ?


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## SmokesLikeBob (Sep 23, 2011)

This whole LED versus HID argument has been going on since LED's were first implemented into growing. Whatever you use is up to you, but HID is better IMO...Bottom line, it has been proven, time after time.


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## Corso312 (Sep 23, 2011)

i used to feel the same way bob...i am not a led grower..but i will be in a year, the leds have caught up to hid in my opinion..i am seeing too many outstanding grows with led nowadays...if the hids and the leds were the same price then everyone would be using leds...the only thing delaying most growers from leds are the initial cost...a 10x10 room could be done with two 1k watters at a third of the price of three 600 watt leds


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## grizlbr (Sep 23, 2011)

Jack Harer said:


> Do you think that ALL LED units are trash or did you price shop? Staying away from them will only slow research and development of ever better products!
> There are companies like Blackdog who have developed some pretty damn impressive units. The votes ain't all in yet, and I have yet to see the products of the units, but I AM intrigued, and believe that they are the future. Just not the immediate one.


 Use what works for you. I do not see the need for big lights until we can grow in GA. T8s work for me starting tomatoes.


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## collective gardener (Sep 24, 2011)

Corso312 said:


> i used to feel the same way bob...i am not a led grower..but i will be in a year, the leds have caught up to hid in my opinion..i am seeing too many outstanding grows with led nowadays...if the hids and the leds were the same price then everyone would be using leds...the only thing delaying most growers from leds are the initial cost...a 10x10 room could be done with two 1k watters at a third of the price of three 600 watt leds


Absolutely not. If LEDs were half the price of HID I'd still use HID. Please show me these "outstanding grows" with LED. I have yet to see one commercial LED grow op that is on par with HID. Most of my closest friends are commercial growers. Most of us can afford to purchase whatever equipment will work the best...and most of us do just that. If LED's were up to the task, we'd all run them. I really wish they were better. 

BTW, properly lighting a 10x10 room takes quite a bit more light than 2 - 1000 watt lights. 4 lights would even be too little for my liking. We use 2 - 1000 watt lights for every 4x8 tray.


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## SmokesLikeBob (Sep 24, 2011)

Corso312 said:


> i used to feel the same way bob...i am not a led grower..but i will be in a year, the leds have caught up to hid in my opinion..i am seeing too many outstanding grows with led nowadays...if the hids and the leds were the same price then everyone would be using leds...the only thing delaying most growers from leds are the initial cost...a 10x10 room could be done with two 1k watters at a third of the price of three 600 watt leds


LED's got it's advantages... but the cons out-weigh the pros....And the only bad thing I can think of for HID's is heat. I know someone will probably say, "How about your power bill?", but these lights will do more than pay for themselves. You can double, maybe even triple your initial investment, plus the upkeep costs on the first cycle. Then every cycle after that is virtually pure profit.
With LED's it'll take you maybe 2 cycles just to cover the cost of the light.


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## collective gardener (Sep 24, 2011)

SmokesLikeBob said:


> LED's got it's advantages... but the cons out-weigh the pros....And the only bad thing I can think of for HID's is heat. I know someone will probably say, "How about your power bill?", but these lights will do more than pay for themselves. You can double, maybe even triple your initial investment, plus the upkeep costs on the first cycle. Then every cycle after that is virtually pure profit.
> With LED's it'll take you maybe 2 cycles just to cover the cost of the light.


 
Bob, very perceptive view on HID. Power is just another operating expense. Proportionally, it's really not that much...certainly less than trimming costs. But, speaking of bottom lines, IF the LED could produce HID quality/quantity buds, they, too, would pay for themselves quite fast. The higher cost would be offset easily by lower power and bulb replacement costs. These people that keep saying that folks are not buying them because of high cost are way off course. People are not running out and buying them because they simply don't perform as well as HID. And, nobody wants to spend ANY money (let alone more money)for a light that can't do what HID can do. 

Your point on heat, Bob, is certainly spot on. Heat is the bane of my existence all summer long. This weekend I'm installing another sub-panel to power the new A/C unit I ordered. This is all in prep to seal the grow and stafrt with the CO2 enrichment.


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## Corso312 (Sep 24, 2011)

SmokesLikeBob said:


> LED's got it's advantages... but the cons out-weigh the pros....And the only bad thing I can think of for HID's is heat. I know someone will probably say, "How about your power bill?", but these lights will do more than pay for themselves. You can double, maybe even triple your initial investment, plus the upkeep costs on the first cycle. Then every cycle after that is virtually pure profit.
> With LED's it'll take you maybe 2 cycles just to cover the cost of the light.


it is not about the energy consumption vs yield, because clearly an average grower can get an elbow per 1k watt hps and that would pay for the light and the cost to run it and leave a nice profit... the problem is most people live in non med states and can not have a 1400 dollar bill without raising eyebrows


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## FootClan (Sep 24, 2011)

Jack Harer said:


> *LED's are bad for your eyes and Plants :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the amount of UVB that you get from a MH is not hat much and if you use a hood with a glass its almost completetly filtered out......


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## FootClan (Sep 24, 2011)

VILEPLUME said:


> I like a good 400w MH for veg. Bright enough but not too bright so it burns your plants.


i use a 1000w MH and it dosent burn anything in fact the plants love it.......The stocks are twice the size when i veg with a 1000w verse a 400w...... its not going to burn your plants if you use a bigger light


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## lamabile85 (Sep 24, 2011)

I am starting my vegatative growth cycle with T5 Badboys (6 bulbs) total of 4. Then for blooming/flowering switching to ann HID 1000 watt system (4 total). Hopefully produces results


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## FootClan (Sep 24, 2011)

NewGrowth said:


> I love how I always have to back up my claims but no one else does. Then we got this dude who has not even used LEDs arguing. LED is junk, if you can't control heat you have improper ventilation. How's this? I have REAL WORLD experience with t5's, HID, and LED's. For the price of the led lights you could buy a small HID and all the fan's, ect you need.
> 
> So how does a so called 'pro' grower examine lighting?
> Efficiency vs Cost
> ...


+ Rep!!!! well put!!


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## FootClan (Sep 24, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Obviously led's can be very close to autogrows ?? as there short? but in reality a large scale grower will not waste time with led's ?? simply not enough coverage ??? it really is not rocket science is it ?? why do ppl get so uppity about lights for god sakes ? Obviously your growing in a small area with your small plants ?? why am i the only person who can see this ???? SOMEONE show me an LED grow thats not in a box or closet ?


dude you cant argue LEDs with LED growers you jus cant do it.....Its like debating religion with a religions person it dosent matter what you say religious person will always counter your debate with stuff like its "faith" you just have to have faith that all ..... just like you cant argue led with an LED user for some reason they are the most snobby stubern growers out here..... so trying to convience them of ANYTHING other then what they think is just a waste of typing .....No amount of common sense or logic will have any effect of them what so ever.......ive already learned this and now except it...Cant change it and they curtinly arent going to change there minds so why even debate it.... theres no debate when only one side is debating....


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## FootClan (Sep 24, 2011)

Corso312 said:


> i used to feel the same way bob...i am not a led grower..but i will be in a year, the leds have caught up to hid in my opinion..i am seeing too many outstanding grows with led nowadays...if the hids and the leds were the same price then everyone would be using leds...the only thing delaying most growers from leds are the initial cost...a 10x10 room could be done with two 1k watters at a third of the price of three 600 watt leds


thats not really true people keep saying thats the only reason is cost......BULLSHIT..... i can afford any light i want im not bound by cost and alot of my grower friends have even more money then me and they all CHOOSE not to get LEDs NOT becuase of cost but because we dont like them......lol so the whole cost argument is getting old and its always the first thing the led growers jump to when saying "its the main reason people dont use them" when in fact the MAIN reason is people dont like them........


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## FootClan (Sep 24, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> next time try using punctuation. I have no idea what the point you're trying to make is.


anyone who refers to someone punctuation and spelling in a debate is a peice of shit that cant back up there argument with logic so they have to defer to someones spelling ....thats weak sauce and weakminded.....If you cant beat him with logic and sense then you loose you dont get to cristize someones spelling as if that has anyting to do with his point.......


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## FootClan (Sep 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Maybe someday LED's can compete with HID's...but today is not the day. I'm still waiting to see just one nice sized commercial grow op running LED's to produce HID quality buds. All I hear is about all the great PAR numbers and the like. Nobody wants a new lighting choice more than myself and the other commercial growers in my group. But, it's just not there yet. I don't like needing 64,000btu A/C units, but I don't have a choice. We're getting ready to add 20 more lights to our bloom room and I've been holding off in the hopes of LED or induction producing a light that can do what my HPS's do. But, it's just not happening. When we add it will be flip boxes and 20 more HPS's. There is a reason that every commercial op you see is lit with HPS's. If LED's could do the job, we'd all be running them. Maybe they're ok for a closet grow, but they have no place in a production facility.


+ rep....... cant argue with logic


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## DrFever (Sep 24, 2011)

i say let LEd growers be LED growers there only really closet growers anyway ) to worried about power bill to cheap to actually run exhaust power but rather PC fans hahahaha kinda think its halarious veg for like 8 weeks and flower for 14 weeks ) as most hid growers will be half done there second grow as you complete your first one )


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## Corbat420 (Sep 24, 2011)

FootClan said:


> the amount of UVB that you get from a MH is not hat much and if you use a hood with a glass its almost completetly filtered out......


wow you know nothing about maijuana and THC. i just have to cover that right now.

you NEVER want to eliminate the UV/B Lighting. you want 4 Watts of UV/B lighting per Square meter (this is what the sun provides....)

maybe you should do some Research on UV/B and THC......



> *Led's are by far the wost, reduced yield and high cost.*


the only reason LED's dont match HID lighting is the light penetration. the light penetration will NEVER match HID lighting.

but then, theres Plasma Lighting..... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Plasma-Grow-Light-Plasms-Light-Bulb-300-watts-/200527967618
LEP (Light Emiting Plasma) IS the future of lighting when the price comes down.

Plasma lights, get the same intensity and Lumen output from 288 Watts as a 600 HPS or a 1000 Metal Halide (Both of which have the same lumen intensity.....) there the only lighting so far that has been able to BEAT HID Lighting in every test.... lamp life, heat, safty, initial lumens, and wattage intake.....


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## DrFever (Sep 24, 2011)

FootClan said:


> anyone who refers to someone punctuation and spelling in a debate is a peice of shit that cant back up there argument with logic so they have to defer to someones spelling ....thats weak sauce and weakminded.....If you cant beat him with logic and sense then you loose you dont get to cristize someones spelling as if that has anyting to do with his point.......


thanks footclan i may be lazy with punctuations but i think i get the point across i have seen threads where ppl are growing with LED
and all they talk about is how nice the picture looks lol but in reality how come the plant is taking its time growing is what i like to know ?????


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## lambofgod (Sep 24, 2011)

I can say that my 1k HID puts my buddies 3 led panels to shame. Complete shame. I get more weight, better trichome production and denser nugs. 

There is no way I'd switch.


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## FootClan (Sep 24, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> wow you know nothing about maijuana and THC. i just have to cover that right now.
> 
> you NEVER want to eliminate the UV/B Lighting. you want 4 Watts of UV/B lighting per Square meter (this is what the sun provides....)
> 
> ...


lol um seems you know nothing..... I didnt say ANYTHING about plants not needing UVB you dumb ass.....I said that MH dosent give off that much UVB then i went on to say that the very little UVB that comes out of a MH bulb will be further filterd by the glass in the air cooled hood..... So before you jump in talking stupid you should try RE- reading what i wrote ........ I know all about UVB rays and what it does for plants and how it can improve THC but not CBD..

THE POINT OF MY RESPONSE WAS TO IMFORM PEOPLE THAT YOU DONT GET ALOT OF UVB RAYS FROM A MH BULB AND IF YOU ARE USING A AIR COOLED HOOD WITH GLASS YOU GET ALMOST NO UVB RAYS......... I WASNT saying that plants dont need UVB rays......... Congrats you just earned dumbest post of the day!!


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## Nikolaj06 (Sep 24, 2011)

FootClan said:


> lol um seems you know nothing..... I didnt say ANYTHING about plants not needing UVB you dumb ass.....I said that MH dosent give off that much UVB then i went on to say that the very little UVB that comes out of a MH bulb will be further filterd by the glass in the air cooled hood..... So before you jump in talking stupid you should try RE- reading what i wrote ........ I know all about UVB rays and what it does for plants and how it can improve THC but not CBD..
> 
> THE POINT OF MY RESPONSE WAS TO IMFORM PEOPLE THAT YOU DONT GET ALOT OF UVB RAYS FROM A MH BULB AND IF YOU ARE USING A AIR COOLED HOOD WITH GLASS YOU GET ALMOST NO UVB RAYS......... I WASNT saying that plants dont need UVB rays......... Congrats you just earned dumbest post of the day!!


Damn... You sounds like a jerk...


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## Josh3235 (Sep 24, 2011)

what Carne said, you get what you pay for. Each panel was probably like 40$? Rofl, Go get yourself a GOOD LED and you will love them. My 240w blackstar is decent quality LED for the price. I'm very happy with it, it works really good.


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## FootClan (Sep 24, 2011)

Nikolaj06 said:


> Damn... You sounds like a jerk...


actually his first post directed at me sounded like a jerk....... i was just responding to his jerkeryness with my own.... He clearly said in his first sentence.... " you know nothing" and thats not sounding like a jerk?? your a jerk for butting in and saying i sound like a jerk when its more then clear that he fuckin started it but im the jerk and not him?? no no you fail for being bias and lop-sided in your remark..... You could have said you both sound like a jerk but no you had to single me out when its was obivious he was just as jerky as me....... Dont call me out and think im not going to resopnd with logic......your comment is bias so it means nothing.....


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## Clonex (Sep 24, 2011)

FootClan said:


> dude you cant argue LEDs with LED growers you jus cant do it.....Its like debating religion with a religions person it dosent matter what you say religious person will always counter your debate with stuff like its "faith" you just have to have faith that all ..... just like you cant argue led with an LED user for some reason they are the most snobby stubern growers out here..... so trying to convience them of ANYTHING other then what they think is just a waste of typing .....No amount of common sense or logic will have any effect of them what so ever.......ive already learned this and now except it...Cant change it and they curtinly arent going to change there minds so why even debate it.... theres no debate when only one side is debating....


Why dont you read all my comments before jumping in ? i have used both - my comments are sensible and i will debate what i like....


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## Corbat420 (Sep 24, 2011)

FootClan said:


> lol um seems you know nothing..... I didnt say ANYTHING about plants not needing UVB you dumb ass.....I said that MH dosent give off that much UVB then i went on to say that the very little UVB that comes out of a MH bulb will be further filterd by the glass in the air cooled hood..... So before you jump in talking stupid you should try RE- reading what i wrote ........ I know all about UVB rays and what it does for plants and how it can improve THC but not CBD..
> 
> THE POINT OF MY RESPONSE WAS TO IMFORM PEOPLE THAT YOU DONT GET ALOT OF UVB RAYS FROM A MH BULB AND IF YOU ARE USING A AIR COOLED HOOD WITH GLASS YOU GET ALMOST NO UVB RAYS......... I WASNT saying that plants dont need UVB rays......... Congrats you just earned dumbest post of the day!!


Lmfao dumbest post of the day? wow Mr my mommy doesnt pay any attention to me so i come onto the forum and wave my Epenis around and try to look cool.... thats a Big claim from someone like you.

BTW what you ACTUALY said was


FootClan said:


> the amount of UVB that you get from a MH is not hat much and if you use a hood with a glass its almost completetly filtered out......


and if you take the Context you put it Into "UV Lights, Thus LED Lights are BAD for you", the context means you were saying a MH was better than LED because it has no UV/B lighting.

on the Contrary, LED's are actualy BETTER than MH on that factor, UV/B Lighting. i have to add 2 aditional bulbs, per Square meter to actualy equal the suns UV/B Spectrum in my MH and HPS rooms.

P.S: Next time you try and argue with me, actualy present something legitimate.... dont just spam "NO THIS R WHAT I DID".

Edit:


> *i was just responding to his jerkeryness with my own*


I eat Jerkys like you for breakfast. Learn English.....please.....


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## Clonex (Sep 24, 2011)

Beef Jerky for Breakfast lol


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## Corbat420 (Sep 24, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Beef Jerky for Breakfast lol


im canadian. Jerky and Beer, its what lumberjacks live on....


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## Clonex (Sep 24, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> im canadian. Jerky and Beer, its what lumberjacks live on....


Remembering Greg Moore rip , that dark day in California,Fontana 1999 i will never forget ...
Peace!


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## hiluxphantom (Sep 24, 2011)

I think that if your gonna spend thousands on a light id get a plasma they have crazy spectrum leds i would use ontop of my hids for flowering to help with them sticky buddies leds have all that precision spectrum i think everyone should just install solar panels n cal it a day or fuk with 5k build a green house. i only read 7 pages and cant read anymore what with this huge argument and who was that fuck rowing only 1 plant of 3 led fixtures what the fuck? and I'm sure a closet grower would wanna go hps i mean they are cheap n they are amazing i think closet grows mostly come to cost but if i had 3000+ to spend on lighting id either get plasma or a shit load of hps and metal halide but as it stands i dont have much money to throw down so im gonna buy another hps ballast or get a cmh next


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## collective gardener (Sep 24, 2011)

Well,

It didn't take long for another LED titled thread to turn to shit. Prior to this bombardment, we were actually having a reasonable discussion. Then, it's he's a jerk, you're a jerk, he's a bigger jerk, you like to jerk, jam it, ram it, cram it , slam it. Holy fuck guys. It's a fucking light! What's up with all this "you said I said this, but I really said that, so you're a bigger jerk". My god. You kids enjoy this sandbox. I'm gone.


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## Clonex (Sep 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Well,
> 
> It didn't take long for another LED titled thread to turn to shit. Prior to this bombardment, we were actually having a reasonable discussion. Then, it's he's a jerk, you're a jerk, he's a bigger jerk, you like to jerk, jam it, ram it, cram it , slam it. Holy fuck guys. It's a fucking light! What's up with all this "you said I said this, but I really said that, so you're a bigger jerk". My god. You kids enjoy this sandbox. I'm gone.


It makes me sick , some people were actually enjoying the useful information and found it useful. Why must people Online behave like they are back in 3rd grade.


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## hoss12781 (Sep 24, 2011)

foot clan has done that to pretty much every led thread on this site. Still, this was one of the better discussions I've shared. Still pretty easy to read if you add him to your ignore list.


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## hiluxphantom (Sep 24, 2011)

how is this better this was terrible not even 3 mosts in n it turned to shitstorm this is only 4 days old max with 14 solid pages of trash talk much better threads have had only 2 pages. its appalling to the internet. for shame.
but aside from that seriously cant find even this many pages about thai sticks people need to do more of that
anyone know a good usb microscope it can have leds if u like


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## hoss12781 (Sep 24, 2011)

it was a somewhat civil back and forth for about the first five pages. Read most of the other led threads, they usually turn into an orgy of ad hominem attacks much quicker. Some Santa and MI-5 autoflowers I grew LED only seed to harvest attached in case anyone is still reading. I don't know if leds are ready for commercial application as I'm a hobby closet gardener. They're certainly ready for small batch growers 

I just cut four autos that averaged 1.5 oz per plant and took 64 days to go from seed to nuggets. If I were to sell this it would easily cover the investment I made when switching to led from hps. View attachment 1804882View attachment 1804883


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## Corso312 (Sep 25, 2011)

looks real nice hoss, well done.... i have no dog in this fight..i have never used led....i am just seeing too many led grows with a nice yield and very good quality..keep in mind these people are using technology from a year ago..there are better lights that come out each year..i believe in 13 months when i get rid of my hids i can buy some very good lights that will equal or surpass my 1000 watters that draw too many amps and give off a very dry intense heat


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## hoss12781 (Sep 25, 2011)

Mine are, with the exclusion of two older ufo lights, all 2011 3w chipset lamps from GLH and Hydroponics Hut. You're right the tech has grown leaps and bounds since the 1w diode 90w ufo, which never should have been advertised as a replacement for a 400w hid. I have a 250w chipset Pro-Grow from Hydro Hut - that would replace a 400w hps no problem. 
2012 should be an interesting year for leds as I've heard most of the major players are going to 5w diodes in the not too distant future. Should start to eliminate a lot of the hate going around, some of which I believe is totally justified given the unscrupulous advertising some companies have employed to make a quick buck. What I can't believe is that some people are still spending money on the 225 diode 14w panels - those have done nothing but fuel the troll rage and piss off a lot of gardeners.


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## Corbat420 (Sep 25, 2011)

> *2012 should be an interesting year for leds as I've heard most of the major players are going to 5w diodes in the not too distant future*


i've been thinking the same thing. if i have any hope at all it will be with this light right here: http://bcledlights.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22&products_id=224 800 Watt, 160x 5W LED panel. 

i still have a feeling that it wont be quite as good as HPS for flowering, but it might just do the trick...... i know for a FACT that these new LED's are going to blow everything else away when it comes to Vegetative growth. if it has the penetration power of a 1000 Watt light then nothing will touch this thing...... but i dont have $2000 to spend on one light


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## Corso312 (Sep 25, 2011)

that looks like a nice light but that is the reason i do not have leds...2 thousand dollars for a light that covers 4 foot by 4 foot...so basically equals a 600 watt hid..the price has to come down to 800 or 1000 for me to buy that light


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## Corbat420 (Sep 25, 2011)

thats the main reason i think 2012 will be a better year for LED's, they will show if they are truly worth there money next year, when the price of alot of these models comes down to an affordable price.....


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## Clonex (Sep 25, 2011)

Corso312 said:


> that looks like a nice light but that is the reason i do not have leds...2 thousand dollars for a light that covers 4 foot by 4 foot...so basically equals a 600 watt hid..the price has to come down to 800 or 1000 for me to buy that light


This is exactly my stance , i have a large area to light up , i have even looked into haveing some panels on runners and using them as side lighting , but its either a 2000$ panel that works or the other crap that dont do the job, Hoss makes alot of sense with his comments , we all want the benefits leds obviously bring , 1 - i cant afford 8000 bucks 2 - i dont feel i will get the coverage ...


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## collective gardener (Sep 25, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> i've been thinking the same thing. if i have any hope at all it will be with this light right here: http://bcledlights.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22&products_id=224 800 Watt, 160x 5W LED panel.
> 
> i still have a feeling that it wont be quite as good as HPS for flowering, but it might just do the trick...... i know for a FACT that these new LED's are going to blow everything else away when it comes to Vegetative growth. if it has the penetration power of a 1000 Watt light then nothing will touch this thing...... but i dont have $2000 to spend on one light


 
Corbat,
Thanks for adding something positive to this thread. I thought this thing had gone the way of so many others. Good show, all you guys for pulling this fucker out of the muck.

This light you linked looks promising. Of course, there have been others that I have gotten exited about, only to end up dissappointed. The real test for this thing will be whether it can do the job of a 1000HPS or a 600 HPS. If it could replace a 1000 with no loss of bud size, density, and quality, I would have no problem shelling out $24,000 to replace my 12 - 1000 watt HPS's in my bloom room. I'd estimate around a $500 reduction in my electricity bill for lights alone. Then another $200-$300 in A/C electricity. Add in $100/month in bulb savings and we get at least an $800/month savings. 2.5 years and they've paid for themselves. Even if I put them on my grow op's line of credit, with interest and everything they would have us even in under 3 years. The immediate savings on the power bill covers my interest payment plus a hefty chunk towards the principal. Some of you had mentioned that the only reason all growers don't use LED's is because of the high cost. The truth is, IF they can make one that out performs 1000 watt HPS's, cost is not an issue. I hope my figures layed out above show that clearly.

Now we just nead to sit back and wait for some ops to try these things out. Given the history of broken promises from LED makers, I don't want to be the first commercial sized op to test these things. So many of these lights have looked so good on paper...yet their actual grow op performance has been dissappointing to say the least. For me to get an accurate guage on how well they work, I would have to purchase 4 of them. My bloom room is settup with 3 - 8x8 trays lit by 4 - 1000 watt lights. Because of lighting spillover, and the fact that I measure yield based on what 1 tray produces, 4 lights would be needed for an accurate assessment of their performance. 

So, for now I'll just keep my eye out for grows using these guys. When and if I see some HID size/dense buds coming from these lights, I'll happily purchase 4 of them for a test of my own.

I believe that there is a high possibility that they will work well, but only well enough to replace a 600 watt HPS light. Unfortunately, this negates any direct lighting electrical savings, the bulk of the economic benefits of changing lighting. If this proves to be the case, I could not jusify the initial expense of the lights. It would just take WAY too long te realize the savings based soley on A/C energy savings and bulb replacement savings.

So, as they start showing up in grows, let me know. I'm really hoping they can do the job.


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## Clonex (Sep 25, 2011)

Im in the Uk and electric suppliers have just put there prices up on average by 19%!! its a real killer , the 4x600w hps i run cost me £320/month with all the ventalation gear and fans running , luckily my ac unit is powering my work area + flower room, otherwise i could also add that on , i have solar panels on Order , they are fitted and supplied free here in the uk , as long your roof is pointing sw-se, so i am hoping to bring this down 1/4 on my monthly bill , if i could swap my 600hps for 4 x led panels, i would hardly notice the extra at all but 8000 us dollars is out of my budget for now,(the company are offering no discount at all under 10 units!), do not get me wrong i would find the money for them if the hard facts were there , mainly , no loss in bud density, which was my problem on previous trials, it's not even as though i could just try 1 panel as mixed with the other hps it would show no kind of accurate results, i to am locked into seeing and waiting what comes with future LED development or some hard evidence on the current ones available...


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## Corso312 (Sep 25, 2011)

i may be wrong but i look at the top of the line leds like flat screen tv's...i just got my first flat screen 6 years ago..it was 1500$ at the time..that same tv was 5000$ 3 years before i bought it..it is now 500$...in due time the price will come down and i will buy some


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## SmoochieBoochies (Sep 25, 2011)

Thank you, this thread is a great source of knowledge. I agree about the cost of the LED's not being a real issue IF they can replace 1000w HPS. I have done the math and the energy/bulb replacement savings more than makes up for the additional cost, not to mention the labor savings. Honestly I have stopped growing indoors and risk mother nature to grow solely outdoors, only cloning/veging indoors, due to the hassle. I miss growing indoors, especially when weather, bugs or animals cause real damage to my plants. It is nice to have a few locked up safe and sound! 

Happy growing!


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## Corbat420 (Sep 25, 2011)

> *.i just got my first flat screen 6 years ago..it was 1500$ *


my family bought a 58" Flat screen TV in 1986..... you know, those GIANT things in teh black wooden case..... $4800.... IN 1986!!!!!!

i figure next year or a year from now the price of LED lights will be 1/2 the price of what it is now....


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## Clonex (Sep 25, 2011)

i found this write up on led's a good read , see watcha think , click on link and goto uk issue 4. http://www.softsecrets.nl/?id=47&title=Issues


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## Beefbisquit (Sep 25, 2011)

I'll let you guys know how my LED grow goes.

1 100watt Blackstar LED
1 180 Watt Blackstar LED

4 "The Purps"


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## collective gardener (Sep 25, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Im in the Uk and electric suppliers have just put there prices up on average by 19%!! its a real killer , the 4x600w hps i run cost me £320/month with all the ventalation gear and fans running , luckily my ac unit is powering my work area + flower room, otherwise i could also add that on , i have solar panels on Order , they are fitted and supplied free here in the uk , as long your roof is pointing sw-se, so i am hoping to bring this down 1/4 on my monthly bill , if i could swap my 600hps for 4 x led panels, i would hardly notice the extra at all but 8000 us dollars is out of my budget for now,(the company are offering no discount at all under 10 units!), do not get me wrong i would find the money for them if the hard facts were there , mainly , no loss in bud density, which was my problem on previous trials, it's not even as though i could just try 1 panel as mixed with the other hps it would show no kind of accurate results, i to am locked into seeing and waiting what comes with future LED development or some hard evidence on the current ones available...


 
Clonex,

I feel your pain in knowing the only accurate way to test new LED's is to have enough of them. Mixing new LED's with HID's may be great, but how would we know what the LED's are bringing to the party. I have to say, the lights Corbat linked have got me thinking the technology might be there. I think the LED makers finally realized that to be effective, they're going to have to draw some power. Originally, they tried to make us think that they could give us real performance for 20-30% of the energy draw. I guess on paper it may have worked that way. They sold alot of units to people who bought into that theory. I've noticed that the LED wattages have been steadily climbing, and their claims of what a watt can do has been steadily dropping. This turn towards a more honest approach to the potential of the technology makes me feel more confident that a commercial LED grow could soon be a real possibility. When they used to claim that a 90 watt LED could match a 400HPS, they were the laughing stock of every commercial grower coast to coast. I hope the LED industry continues this shift towards a more realistic assesment of what their lights can be expected to do.


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## MrVanker (Sep 25, 2011)

First off, I have never grown. I signed up here on RIU, literally the day after I smoked my first bowl. I've been reading and learning, waiting until I can start my own grow.



collective gardener said:


> Clonex,
> 
> I hope the LED industry continues this shift towards a more realistic assesment of what their lights can be expected to do.



Let's hope we see some results soon. What I really want, is a side by side test. Two rooms right next to each other, all plants would be clones taken from the same mother at the same time, preferably hydro and both room share the same res, same temps, etc. As identical as can be, except for the lights. One side HPS, the other LED (why not test CFLs at the same time!). They should record daily growth, nutrient depletion in the res, overall plant health, root health, wet weight, dry weight, etc. Perhaps run the test 3 times to get an average. It would be expensive, but it would be very informative to see all the data.

Slightly off topic:
I don't know if anybody here has seen the ProSource LED video on YouTube, but it pisses me off. Somebody here on RIU linked to it, like it was a good demo of LED grow tech. In reality, it's a 9 minute infomercial produced by the company. They try to make it sort of seem like it's just a guy who had good results and wants to share, but I highly doubt that. After watching the video, I left a comment about my idea for a test. It needed to be approved by the user... lo and behold, it's not approved. The vid has been up for 4 months, with 6,800 views but only has 11 comments? Considering how many people are interested in the tech, it should have a couple more comments I would think. Also, like and dislikes are disabled. That shit pisses me off to no end. It's a company preying on the gullible and inexperienced, and not even willing to take any sort of criticism. Fuck that shit.


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## virulient (Sep 25, 2011)

NewGrowth said:


> LED's are bad for your eyes and Plants :: I'm more interested in new HID technology. Ceramic metal halide, plasma discharge ect.


Awesome scientific data backing up your hypothesis. When people make comments like this......nobody wins.


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## virulient (Sep 25, 2011)

MrVanker said:


> First off, I have never grown. I signed up here on RIU, literally the day after I smoked my first bowl. I've been reading and learning, waiting until I can start my own grow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There HAVE been those kind of grow journals. If you researched....you would find them. I promise.


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## MrVanker (Sep 25, 2011)

I'll give it a go and see what I find. I would hope that if there were any such journals with reliable info, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I did see one journal a while back, with the inductive fluros, but it also seemed to be run by the company. Every other post was telling people about how great the company was, how they have done the research, have great customer service, x day warranties, etc. It seemed to fake. I could be wrong though, it's happened before!


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## virulient (Sep 25, 2011)

MrVanker said:


> I'll give it a go and see what I find. I would hope that if there were any such journals with reliable info, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
> 
> I did see one journal a while back, with the inductive fluros, but it also seemed to be run by the company. Every other post was telling people about how great the company was, how they have done the research, have great customer service, x day warranties, etc. It seemed to fake. I could be wrong though, it's happened before!


The speculation behind LED's derives from people like the person who started this thread. The guy who thought his 2 hours of research and his "bargain hunter" attitude could equal a cost-free, electricity-free, magic grow light. The science behind LED's prove that they can work. And as collectivegardener said, their claims are finally getting to be more and more realistic. Once people started to understand that you actually DO get what you pay for, and they started to invest in the quality lights, you started seeing journals pop up, with people getting some truly great results using LED's. 

Simply put, LED's aren't going to blow any HID light out of the water. But for a fraction of the HID electricity, a fraction of the heat, and a more healthy spectrum delivered to the plant, LED's definitely have a place in indoor gardening. To say EVERYONE needs to go buy an LED RIGHT NOW is preposterous, but they WILL produce results when the right light is bought; assuming the grower knows how to grow cannabis.

EDIT - There are a few journals that I came across that seemed to be that company's employee/owner trying to plug his product, but there are some good, un-bias growers right here on RIU that have used LED's for a while now.


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## virulient (Sep 25, 2011)

Just want to add. If you bought a 20 dollar LED panel off eBay and it didn't work.......don't respond with "I USED LEDS AND THEY SUCK". You need to research a LOT more, go buy a proper light, develop some kind of input valuable to the conversation, THEN make your comment. This thread should be like 2 pages long right now -.-


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## MrVanker (Sep 25, 2011)

I completely agree with you Virulent. I don't doubt that there are LEDs that work, and are based on real science. But as with any product, people are always trying to make a buck so they make a very poor imitation. My opinion on lights is this: If it is the best solution for you, go for it. 

I don't doubt that HIDs outperform CFLs or LEDs when used on the same scale. But I plan on running a PC grow, so it simply is not possible to use any type of HID. If I tried, odds are I would burn up my plants. Which tells me that CFLs outperform HIDs for my individual needs. Likewise, I have no issue with anybody using LEDs (unless they are like the OP). I have even been thinking about doing some in depth research and building my own panel. I don't mind spending $60 for a project like that, even if it doesn't work alone, I would use it to augment CFLs. So as I have said from the get-go, I am not against LEDs.

Also, I've been searching for a side by side grow, and haven't found any here on RIU. Perhaps I'm not using the right search terms. I do want to read what is out there, but I don't think I'll find what I described. I love grow journals, they are the reason I am here at RIU. But for the experiment I described, I want numbers, observations and photos. When we have that kind of empirical data, then we will see what LEDs can do, and how they can be improved. That applies to all aspects of growing.


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## virulient (Sep 26, 2011)

MrVanker said:


> I completely agree with you Virulent. I don't doubt that there are LEDs that work, and are based on real science. But as with any product, people are always trying to make a buck so they make a very poor imitation. My opinion on lights is this: If it is the best solution for you, go for it.
> 
> I don't doubt that HIDs outperform CFLs or LEDs when used on the same scale. But I plan on running a PC grow, so it simply is not possible to use any type of HID. If I tried, odds are I would burn up my plants. Which tells me that CFLs outperform HIDs for my individual needs. Likewise, I have no issue with anybody using LEDs (unless they are like the OP). I have even been thinking about doing some in depth research and building my own panel. I don't mind spending $60 for a project like that, even if it doesn't work alone, I would use it to augment CFLs. So as I have said from the get-go, I am not against LEDs.
> 
> Also, I've been searching for a side by side grow, and haven't found any here on RIU. Perhaps I'm not using the right search terms. I do want to read what is out there, but I don't think I'll find what I described. I love grow journals, they are the reason I am here at RIU. But for the experiment I described, I want numbers, observations and photos. When we have that kind of empirical data, then we will see what LEDs can do, and how they can be improved. That applies to all aspects of growing.


https://www.rollitup.org/do-yourself/464828-diy-l-e-d-grow.html <--That's an interesting read I thought. Not too sure how well it's going to work out but intriguing nonetheless.


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## MrVanker (Sep 26, 2011)

I think that with enough research, it is doable. The biggest problem is supplying power to each LED. I am not the most knowledgeable person when it comes to resistors and such, but Wikipedia is a great place to start! Then comes the light spectrums... with a bit of googling, I found a page that shows the spectrums and temps of different LEDs. If I don't find enough reliable info, then I just won't do it, but I'll try. Of course if I am successful, I will share the parts and schematics.


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## virulient (Sep 26, 2011)

When you give it a shot please let me know how it went! I studied electronics briefly while I was in the Air Force, enough to know it's definitely do-able if you have the right information, and are good at soldering. With some testing, and trial and error, I think you could get something put together that could really help your grow out, and possibly, someday even power a grow on its' own.


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## collective gardener (Sep 26, 2011)

virulient said:


> Awesome scientific data backing up your hypothesis. You're an idiot.


Was the "idiot" comment really necessary? I dissagree with the post, as well. But it's comments like these that take the thread down a negative road. Rise above that shit, brother.


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## MrVanker (Sep 26, 2011)

Damn you ritalin! lol Now that I'm thinking about it, I can't stop! I really need to go to bed, I have to be up in about 3.5 hours to take my niece and nephew to school!

Anyhoo, I've found some seemingly good info at this GrassCity thread *see Sardoth and 2lsc's posts*. Well, I don't know that it's good, but they certainly sound confident! I think it's a good start anyway.

Just to get an idea on cost, I started looking up LEDs in the nm ranges they mention. I am starting to see why some of the LED setups are so expensive. The only website that I really trust for good LEDs is Mouser, and they are all $2-$6 a piece! Luckily, when build the light, it will most likely be for a micro grow, so I'm thinking 10-15Lx4-6w.

EDIT: I almost forgot, regarding the idiot comment... I don't know that it was necessary, but what we may not have thought about (I didn't), is that the Blue LEDs supply not only the higher nm spectrums, but also the UV. While it isn't a huge concern with CFLs, or other fuller spectrum lights, with LEDs I think it is. Because the LED is putting out smaller more specific ranges of light, the UV is more of a danger. I'm not sure that it is enough to damage your eyes in the short term, I imagine you could get a bit of tan being under them.


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## virulient (Sep 26, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Was the "idiot" comment really necessary? I dissagree with the post, as well. But it's comments like these that take the thread down a negative road. Rise above that shit, brother.


You're right, it was out of line, I edited it.


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## SmokesLikeBob (Sep 26, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Bob, very perceptive view on HID. Power is just another operating expense. Proportionally, it's really not that much...certainly less than trimming costs. But, speaking of bottom lines, IF the LED could produce HID quality/quantity buds, they, too, would pay for themselves quite fast. The higher cost would be offset easily by lower power and bulb replacement costs. These people that keep saying that folks are not buying them because of high cost are way off course. People are not running out and buying them because they simply don't perform as well as HID. And, nobody wants to spend ANY money (let alone more money)for a light that can't do what HID can do.
> 
> Your point on heat, Bob, is certainly spot on. Heat is the bane of my existence all summer long. This weekend I'm installing another sub-panel to power the new A/C unit I ordered. This is all in prep to seal the grow and stafrt with the CO2 enrichment.


EXACTLY! LED just doesn't deliver the type of quality and quantities that HID's do. Don't get me wrong, I've seen and smoked some great LED bud, but it falls short compared to the product I get out of my 500w HPS cab.
As for the heat,I feel your pain man...I live in the tropics, and it's near impossible for me to get my temps below 80 degrees with the lights on, especially with the open reflectors that I'm currently using. I'm hoping to get my hands on some air-cooled hoods, or possibly DIY some cool tubes!


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## SmokesLikeBob (Sep 26, 2011)

virulient said:


> Awesome scientific data backing up your hypothesis. When people make comments like this......nobody wins.


We appreciate you changing your comment. For future reference, please no name-calling or personal attacks. Thanks!
-SLB


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## MrVanker (Sep 26, 2011)

SmokesLikeBob said:


> We appreciate you changing your comment. For future reference, please no name-calling or personal attacks. Thanks!
> -SLB


I thought we had already been reminded of that courtesy... not even 12 hours ago...


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## collective gardener (Sep 26, 2011)

SmokesLikeBob said:


> We appreciate you changing your comment. For future reference, please no name-calling or personal attacks. Thanks!
> -SLB


A little redundant comment. The guy changed it. Did you just need to get in that last little snip? How cheesy.


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## Orithil (Sep 26, 2011)

SmokesLikeBob said:


> We appreciate you changing your comment. For future reference, please no name-calling or personal attacks. Thanks!
> -SLB


Seems pretty snippy to point this out when the guy changed it.

OT : For someone like me, who only needs to flower like 2-3 plants at a time to keep up with my needs, I think LEDs have potential. But I also agree that at this point, for large operations, they're not even close to practical. But that pr0fesseur has a neat thread up showing even more alternatives. https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/358190-led-without-leds-my-first.html is what I'm talking about. Where do you think this weighs in on the heat/growth scale for small growers?


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## greeniegal (Sep 26, 2011)

Used my Led panels plants will grow but streatch, they do work wonderful for cloning, used one panels all cuts rooted nicely. They should only be used as supplemental light. They need more research and development.


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## MrVanker (Sep 26, 2011)

greeniegal said:


> Used my Led panels plants will grow but streatch, they do work wonderful for cloning, used one panels all cuts rooted nicely. They should only be used as supplemental light. They need more research and development.


Earlier in the thread, I mentioned my desire to build my own LED panel to test. In one forum (I linked it on the last page), a member said that the blue light spectrum enables the plant to control it's internodal length. What do your panels look like? What is the apprx. red:blue ratio?


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## Corbat420 (Sep 26, 2011)

so far.....

Known Pro's:
-electricity consumption
-heat
-Light Spectrum (up to 5 Band lights, red,green,blue, UV/B, and IR)

Known Cons:
-Light intensity (most can not equal a 600W HPS let alone a 1000W)
-PRICE $$$
- Quality. most brands, and even some major brands produce very poor quality lights.
-Measured in PAR and not Lumens.
- * they needed to be so close to the canopy* (Clonex's Study)


My hypothesis thus far is as such:
LED Lights are Very good for cloning and vegetative growth if an individual can spend the needed money to acquire a light of sufficient quality. with the electricity costs lowered, heat output lowered, and clones produced over time the light should be able to pay for its self within one year to be a quality investment, saving an average of $30/month on electricity with the combined lower cooling needs, and lower heating costs, putting out an average of 30 Clones per month at a cost of $5 per clone. over one year this would equal roughly $2100~ and would pay for the investment in a light up-to $1500 Easily.

Flowering Growth for LED lights is another story. LED light makers need to start measuring the individual Lumen output of a single Diode. 5W Diodes are starting to change the game, but without this Vital Measurement we will never truly be able to make a light with the intensity of an HID Light using LED Technology. in 2012 there are many 5W Diode models coming out, many of which do NOT list the lumen output of a single diode, or the light as a whole. they use PAR to measure Light intensity, which is not a Useful measure when dealing with PLANTS, its only useful when finding the total energy which is displaced by the light, NOT the USABLE Light given off by the Diodes.

with a proper spectrum mixture (Red,Blue,Green and UV/B), and the proper Lumen Output (Of 10,000 Lumens, per plant for flowering...) LED Lights could have a spot on commercial growing in the future. untill that happens Commercial growers will be Forced to grow with HID Lighting.


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## Clonex (Sep 26, 2011)

Hey Corbat , just 1 point , i would say they can-not cover a large area and add it to known cons - they needed to be so close to the canopy in my test , and this vastly reduced the coverage area and amount of plants that could sit under it , any higher and they hardly worked at all ...


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## Clonex (Sep 26, 2011)

I am also wondering this , it is true that the wattage consumption on the early Led panels was very low - and they did not work nearly well enough, the wattage power of the latest panels seems to be rising somewhat to say the least , where are they up to now 500w or so ...? my thinking is , by the time they get there , they will more than likely use alot more power so maybe there wont be much saving on power consumption at all , also if they are powering up more are the bulbs changing also ? do they still last as long ? will there infact be any heat issues ? im starting to feel like you should hang above your plants the brightest light possible despite all the science , also all the overpriced led panels that were overpriced like crazy and did not work , are they all in an LED graveyard somewhere or are they infact the new style 1's in a frock..........


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## Corbat420 (Sep 26, 2011)

that does make alot of sense. im hoping if they make the tech better they will be able to cover a HUGE area of plants  but i think thats what growers have been dreaming of since the 70's haha.


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## FootClan (Sep 26, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> Lmfao dumbest post of the day? wow Mr my mommy doesnt pay any attention to me so i come onto the forum and wave my Epenis around and try to look cool.... thats a Big claim from someone like you.
> 
> BTW what you ACTUALY said was
> 
> ...


no actually i MEANT WHAT I SAID.....Just becaue you take plain english and think it means something else dosent mean it means something else like i said i CLEARLY said that Mh dosent give off alot of UVB rays and when you use a hood with glass you loose ALMOST all the UVB rays.......so how the f**ck does that mean led lights are bad for you ??you need to learn english you dumb ass....... do i need to say it again .. ok i will........MH does not give off alot of UVB rays and when you add a glass hood to it it almost filters ALL the UVB rays out thus meanings you dont get alot of UVB rays form MH and if you are using a hood with GLASS you dont really get any......lol


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## FootClan (Sep 26, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Why dont you read all my comments before jumping in ? i have used both - my comments are sensible and i will debate what i like....


lol somepeople just dont get it.....the post was on your side....lol some people just dont get it.... my remark wasnt against you but for you ...lol


----------



## FootClan (Sep 26, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Well,
> 
> It didn't take long for another LED titled thread to turn to shit. Prior to this bombardment, we were actually having a reasonable discussion. Then, it's he's a jerk, you're a jerk, he's a bigger jerk, you like to jerk, jam it, ram it, cram it , slam it. Holy fuck guys. It's a fucking light! What's up with all this "you said I said this, but I really said that, so you're a bigger jerk". My god. You kids enjoy this sandbox. I'm gone.


every single LED thread will turn to what you just said and this is why...LED growers are the most snobby stubborn jerky people on the thread.... anyone coming in saying ANYTHING other then what they think they will attack them....this is the main reason i come in here is to prove my point........i say one thing agaisnt LEDS and everyone start calling me a trol and attacking me so then i stay just to see them destroy there own topic....its kinda funny really.....if you go into any other thread and leave an aposing view point no one really carss or freaks out but in ANY led thread they freak like no other........ we have gone over this before and its common knowlage now....


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## FootClan (Sep 26, 2011)

hoss12781 said:


> foot clan has done that to pretty much every led thread on this site. Still, this was one of the better discussions I've shared. Still pretty easy to read if you add him to your ignore list.


no what you mean is footclan has been out numberd and picked on for simplying posting a view point that differs from your own.then when hes attacked hes fights back......this is what you really ment and this is why you must put me on ingore because you are too weak minded to debate me with logic you can only ingore me because thats easyer then having someone tell you your wrong about something.....lol weakmind you are.....sad really


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## FootClan (Sep 26, 2011)

Clonex said:


> This is exactly my stance , i have a large area to light up , i have even looked into haveing some panels on runners and using them as side lighting , but its either a 2000$ panel that works or the other crap that dont do the job, Hoss makes alot of sense with his comments , we all want the benefits leds obviously bring , 1 - i cant afford 8000 bucks 2 - i dont feel i will get the coverage ...


i can afford i can afford a dozon of them but still dosent mean thats the only reason not to get them....just saying theres more to the problem then just cost.....i know i know im only a troll and nohting i say is true ......lol


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## FootClan (Sep 26, 2011)

virulient said:


> Just want to add. If you bought a 20 dollar LED panel off eBay and it didn't work.......don't respond with "I USED LEDS AND THEY SUCK". You need to research a LOT more, go buy a proper light, develop some kind of input valuable to the conversation, THEN make your comment. This thread should be like 2 pages long right now -.-


yes and as long as your comment is PRO led then we welcome it.....you forgot the last part so i added it for you.lol


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## FootClan (Sep 26, 2011)

greeniegal said:


> Used my Led panels plants will grow but streatch, they do work wonderful for cloning, used one panels all cuts rooted nicely. They should only be used as supplemental light. They need more research and development.


my thought exactly i love to use them for my clones and cutting......


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## Clonex (Sep 26, 2011)

FootClan said:


> lol somepeople just dont get it.....the post was on your side....lol some people just dont get it.... my remark wasnt against you but for you ...lol


Sides dont matter , valued information rocks - if you have something to add - do so - i just do not see the need for "Aggressive Typing" even if i agree with some of your points -


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## Corbat420 (Sep 26, 2011)

> *LED growers are the most snobby stubborn jerky people on the thread,
> **yes and as long as your comment is PRO led then we welcome it*


all this coming from YOU. the guy who comes on and fucks up every LED thread out there.

if you actualy have somethign to contribute then DO IT. dont just post USELESS SHIT on a thread we r trying to keep on track.

P.S learn to use the EDIT Button. Double posting is against the rules and you just posted SIX POSTS IN A ROW.



> *you are too weak minded to debate me with logic*


yealy, were weak minded? you still cant even USE Logic. you are the most illogical, irrational person i have met on here.
you still havnt; been able to debate me on THIS point:


> *and if you take the Context you put it Into "UV Lights, Thus LED Lights are BAD for you", the context means you were saying a MH was better than LED because it has no UV/B lighting.
> 
> on the Contrary, LED's are actualy BETTER than MH on that factor, UV/B Lighting. i have to add 2 aditional bulbs, per Square meter to actualy equal the suns UV/B Spectrum in my MH and HPS rooms.*


your still back there in the Dust saying MH is better because of what, less UV/B? LMFAO.

Unlike you, some of us are actualy contributing good information. i absolutely hate people like you who have no use, you just sit back there rambling on about nothing and think your the king of the world.


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## FootClan (Sep 26, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> all this coming from YOU. the guy who comes on and fucks up every LED thread out there.
> 
> if you actualy have somethign to contribute then DO IT. dont just post USELESS SHIT on a thread we r trying to keep on track.
> 
> P.S learn to use the EDIT Button. Double posting is against the rules and you just posted SIX POSTS IN A ROW.


each post was to a different reaponce........ and like i said if i wasnt attacked and diddnt see such stubborn ness then i wouldnt post such things......but i post as i see em....and its not just me .....Like i said earlyer i talk to growers all the time from my work at the club and the hydro store they all say the same thing " led growers seem to be way more snobby then any other grower" this isnt just my pooint of view its alot of people...... just like i said before the boss of the store said he has LED growers and he cant even discuss tech with them becuase he said they freak out too easly so he avoids the topic all togeather .....well im not scared of confirtation like he is so i dont care if you guys freak out......


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## FootClan (Sep 26, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Sides dont matter , valued information rocks - if you have something to add - do so - i just do not see the need for "Aggressive Typing" even if i agree with some of your points -


im aggrassive with people who are aggrissive with me.....if post a valued point and you attack me solely becuae my name is footclan and you dont like me then you are bias and everything you say means nothing......If you hate me and still see someting i say t hat makes sense and agree then you are not bias...but simply disagreeing with me because you dont like me means you are bias and a fool.. and when i say you i dont mena YOU i mean who ever is disagreeing with me soley because they dont like me not because they disagree with what im saying.....


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## Corbat420 (Sep 26, 2011)

LMFAO this is awsome, you "work in a store" so you have some authority on LED Lights?

i bet your that guy at the hydro store who gets stumped every time a real grower comes up to you and asks you a REAL grow question...... everyone who has ever bought from the hydro store knows a guy like that.

thinks he knows everything, but the only thing he knows is his Chair 

P.S: Double posting again. with all this reporting going on theres got to be some attention soon..... breaking all of these rules and such. i bet you havn't even read the 12 line terms of service lmfao.


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## FootClan (Sep 26, 2011)

further more corbat is way off when he attacted me for what i said about MH not giving off UVB....hes responce didnt even make sense to what i said......I was saying that MH dosent give off alot of UVB rays THAT WAS IT!! some how he turned that into it having to do with LEDS... my coment had nothing to do with LEDS it was about MH and how it dosent give of alot of UVB.....lol some how he turned that into attacking me...and then im the one who is runining the thread?? this is the shit im talking about..... you guys are like blinded by your hate for me........ which means you bias......


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## Clonex (Sep 26, 2011)

Led growers are more snobby than other growers ? do you realise how ridiculous that sounds ? Its like anything in life , they have made an investment and are putting forth there argument in what they believe works ?? in stealth cases , i have seen them work with my own eyes , we are debating if they are ready for commercial use or how long we are likely to have to wait , all you seem to be doing is stereotyping Led growers and sticking your chest out , calm down man....


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## Corbat420 (Sep 26, 2011)

you think with 9 posts in the last 5 mins you would have something to contribute.

guess not.



> * which means you bias...... *


yea, i AM Bias, Against IGNORANCE. i HATE Ignorance. you have been ignoring the whole fucking thing. A DISCUSSION ON COMMERCIAL LED LIGHTING.


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## FootClan (Sep 26, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> LMFAO this is awsome, you "work in a store" so you have some authority on LED Lights?
> 
> i bet your that guy at the hydro store who gets stumped every time a real grower comes up to you and asks you a REAL grow question...... everyone who has ever bought from the hydro store knows a guy like that.
> 
> ...


there you ago again assuming because i work in a hydro store that my point is less valid........ like i said BIAS and has nothing to do with the fact that my boss said he has LED grower freinds and he cant talk to them about led tech becuase they freak out..... that sentense has NOTHING to do with your lack of service at your local hydro store......once again attacking me with bias comments.....


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## Clonex (Sep 26, 2011)

FootClan said:


> im aggrassive with people who are aggrissive with me.....if post a valued point and you attack me solely becuae my name is footclan and you dont like me then you are bias and everything you say means nothing......If you hate me and still see someting i say t hat makes sense and agree then you are not bias...but simply disagreeing with me because you dont like me means you are bias and a fool.. and when i say you i dont mena YOU i mean who ever is disagreeing with me soley because they dont like me not because they disagree with what im saying.....


I do not like or dislike you fgs, i dont even know you ? you are an information source , and an aggressive 1.


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## FootClan (Sep 26, 2011)

yes i htink they are snobby i work in a hydro store and cannibas despensary and weather or not you like that i dont give a shit but that dosent change the fact that i talk to more growers in a day then you do all week on here and based on that yes i feel and so do the people i work with that led growers or snobby......now of course you led growers dont think that becuase you are LED GROWERS.....LOL but yes im a troll and everything im saying is false of course..... lol


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## Clonex (Sep 26, 2011)

FootClan said:


> yes i htink they are snobby i work in a hydro store and cannibas despensary and weather or not you like that i dont give a shit but that dosent change the fact that i talk to more growers in a day then you do all week on here and based on that yes i feel and so do the people i work with that led growers or snobby......now of course you led growers dont think that becuase you are LED GROWERS.....LOL but yes im a troll and everything im saying is false of course..... lol


there you go again "" i work in a hydro store and cannibas despensary and weather or not you like that i dont give a shit""
i dont care to be spoken to that way , so i will no longer add to this thread, good day to you footclan have fun....


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## Corbat420 (Sep 26, 2011)

i am posting one last time in hopes that this thread can be saved.

this thread CAN be saved IF:
#1 ignore footclan. goto his "profile" and click ignore. he wont bother you any more.
#2 start a New Page with a Quote of the vital information (My pro / Con list is a good place to start).


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## FootClan (Sep 26, 2011)

and you are going to attack my job? that shows what kinda person you are....... thats like telling an machanic " oh you think you know someting about cars just becaues you work on them??" most places i take my care they fuck my car up so anyone who works at a car shop most not know anything.......?? right thats bascialy what you just said with your hydropincs store remark i must not know anything because i work at a hydro store annd every hydro store you go to they must not know anything?? i get all your weak minded attemps to discreedit me which only makes you look foolish really..... 

EVEN IF I know NOTHING about hydroponics and even if i was the dumpest employyee in the store that wouldnt change the fact that i TALK to growers all day....So if a grower comes in and i say "hey what do you think about LED growers" and they say " oh gosh i cant stand them they are so snobby and think they know everyting" then thats someones opinion and wouldnt matter HOW STUPID I AM its still here opinion and has NOTHING do with how much I KNOW or DONT know... so based on the fact that i ASK all growers what they think and 85 percent tell me they think led growers have attitude tells me that alot of people think the same way i do.....THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME WORKIN At HYDRO SHOP . so you trying to discredit my obsersevation from workin at a hydro store is FAIL.....


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## FootClan (Sep 26, 2011)

Clonex said:


> there you go again "" i work in a hydro store and cannibas despensary and weather or not you like that i dont give a shit""
> i dont care to be spoken to that way , so i will no longer add to this thread, good day to you footclan have fun....


if ya cant handle aposing view points then ya you better leave and put me on ignore.....lol thats what weakminded people do


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## Clonex (Sep 26, 2011)

FootClan said:


> if ya cant handle aposing view points then ya you better leave and put me on ignore.....lol thats what weakminded people do


difference of viewpoint is 1 thing - An illiterate aggressive abusive argument creating arse-hole like yourself , is completely another.


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## Beefbisquit (Sep 26, 2011)

FootClan said:


> and you are going to attack my job? that shows what kinda person you are....... thats like telling an machanic " oh you think you know someting about cars just becaues you work on them??" most places i take my care they fuck my car up so anyone who works at a car shop most not know anything.......?? right thats bascialy what you just said with your hydropincs store remark i must not know anything because i work at a hydro store annd every hydro store you go to they must not know anything?? i get all your weak minded attemps to discreedit me which only makes you look foolish really.....
> 
> EVEN IF I know NOTHING about hydroponics and even if i was the dumpest employyee in the store that wouldnt change the fact that i TALK to growers all day....So if a grower comes in and i say "hey what do you think about LED growers" and they say " oh gosh i cant stand them they are so snobby and think they know everyting" then thats someones opinion and wouldnt matter HOW STUPID I AM its still here opinion and has NOTHING do with how much I KNOW or DONT know... so based on the fact that i ASK all growers what they think and 85 percent tell me they think led growers have attitude tells me that alot of people think the same way i do.....THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME WORKIN At HYDRO SHOP . so you trying to discredit my obsersevation from workin at a hydro store is FAIL.....


You're making a claim about all LED growers based on your small experience, in one area, of one state, in one country. 

At best, you could claim that you HEAR that LED growers in your area are snobby.

EDIT: Also, on your "mechanics rant", you're not a mechanic - you're someone who speaks with SOME mechanics in ONE shop (if we want to entertain this analogy). If I go to a Porsche dealer what do you think the chances are of them giving me accurate, unbiased, opinions on a Maserati? And the car analogy doesn't really work either, because HID growers in your area might very well know snobbish LED growers, but not neccessarily everywhere else, but a Corolla is a Corolla anywhere you go and doesn't share the same differences pertaining to geography....

Just some food for thought...


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## DrFever (Sep 26, 2011)

what i actualy think is most LED owners are so pissed off that they actually got lured into this that they have no choice not to back up LEd ) when you actually think about LED its for growers who are so paranoid about there power bill its what it really comes down to ????? i think my razor has like 280 watts of power ) i seriously dont think you will ever see any comercial growers growing with them EVER would take a shit load of money to even start up lol try growing 3000 + plants under LED )


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## Orithil (Sep 26, 2011)

DrFever said:


> what i actualy think is most LED owners are so pissed off that they actually got lured into this that they have no choice not to back up LEd ) when you actually think about LED its for growers who are so paranoid about there power bill its what it really comes down to ????? i think my razor has like 280 watts of power ) i seriously dont think you will ever see any comercial growers growing with them EVER would take a shit load of money to even start up lol try growing 3000 + plants under LED )


Sure, but I'm interested in the technology due to the fact I hate light bulbs. It's not rational, it's a condition I can't really do much about, it stems from an anxiety disorder. I only need a few plants and things that pop freak me out, so LEDs hold a certain allure, and a lot of potential for someone on my scale.


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## Beefbisquit (Sep 26, 2011)

DrFever said:


> what i actualy think is most LED owners are so pissed off that they actually got lured into this that they have no choice not to back up LEd ) when you actually think about LED its for growers who are so paranoid about there power bill its what it really comes down to ????? i think my razor has like 280 watts of power ) i seriously dont think you will ever see any comercial growers growing with them EVER would take a shit load of money to even start up lol try growing 3000 + plants under LED )


Watch this

[video=youtube;kxPvN9ke2Xg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxPvN9ke2Xg[/video]


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## Clonex (Sep 26, 2011)

Beefbisquit said:


> Watch this
> 
> [video=youtube;kxPvN9ke2Xg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxPvN9ke2Xg[/video]


Please dont take this the wrong way but that is not a journal , those lights (leds) could have been hung above those plants easily , im looking for a logged journal , thats just a glorified advert , nice watch tho


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## El Superbeasto (Sep 26, 2011)

Here is a 400 watt HPS / 300 watt LED side by side grow journal.

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/completed-journals/124858-300w-led-vs-400w-hid-demonstration.html

It's a long read, but a good read nevertheless.


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## Clonex (Sep 26, 2011)

couldnt see anything in that ? a donated light normally means another advert. sigh.


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## El Superbeasto (Sep 26, 2011)

It's a GLH light, and was donated for the purpose of testing against an HPS. I personally wouldn't use a GLH light because I think the owner is a jackass. But his lights work, and it was shown in that journal. With a 3rd party tester doing the test.

If you read it, instead of making a quick judgement on it, maybe you'll learn something.

I don't care either way, I use both LED and HPS. My garden will not change based on what other people use or buy or say. I like to see results before I give my money to anyone. I also like good true info, not hearsay, "LEDs suck", "HPS suck", "T5 suck...." etc..... I am not ever going to go off of someone saying "I heard...", "or this person I know said...." I wanna see some proof. And that journal did just that.


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## Clonex (Sep 26, 2011)

i read the whole thing - loads of journals like that , the grower is bias to the led company and is rewarded accordingly , it was ok for stealth/cab growing , just looking for bigger , better proof. Like what the other you tube post showed , but an actual journal , i think a led panel could come close to a single 400w hid light in an enclosed space, no doubt.


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## oceangreen (Sep 26, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Does this include a 6x6 ft grow area ?? i think not, enough said.


Yes, any area.... 500 watts of HID in 6X6 is the same as 500watts LED in 6X6. Maybe better, because there will be less heat and stress issues


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## Clonex (Sep 26, 2011)

oceangreen said:


> Yes, any area.... 500 watts of HID in 6X6 is the same as 500watts LED in 6X6. Maybe better, because there will be less heat and stress issues


Your statement is totally wrong. In every way. It would have to be a 600w hid to compare and there is not a proven led panel yet that can get the same intensity or cover the same area as a Hid light.


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## Clonex (Sep 26, 2011)

As you lower an led panel closer to your canopy you limit your coverage , take it to high there is no intensity, this i have already proven myself, with my own test.


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## El Superbeasto (Sep 26, 2011)

You read that particular 100 page plus journal since I posted the link originally apx. 30 minutes ago? 

Well, makes no difference to me either way. You can read it beginning to end and see how identical both environments were set up and the meticulous care that was put into it, and see the results. Or you can not read it and continue to believe whatever it is you believe.

Either way though, my purpose here, is not to prove what light is better, what brand is better, what style of growing is better, but to maybe lay down the first steps for people to stop fighting on what is better. No one is forcing anyone to use any particular style of light or growing method. And what I don't understand is what so many people have to have the LED vs. HPS fight, over and over. And over and over. It's counterproductive. Wouldn't it be better to research, and share info, instead of calling people dumbasses and looking down on people because they choose to use a light that is different that what others use? I started growing in 1991, and have tried many growing methods, many different lighting types, indoor growing, outdoor growing, small closet grows, medium to large sized tent grows, a few outdoor plants, to a couple hundred outdoor plants. I have friends that grow, and we share ideas, techniques, clones, seeds, etc... And we all have our own way of growing. And never once have I looked down on any of them for their growing choices, or vice versa. Nor have I dismissed an entire array of different LED brands (and those with varying degrees of advancement, they aren't the same now as they were even a year ago) because of the bad ones that are out there. I never seen any of that until I joined this forum. It just mostly "I'm better than you because you do not use what I use...., newb, fail." 

Lastly, I think until someone has tried LEDs, or HPS, their opinion on them is not that strong. And even if someone has used both LED and HPS, but only 1 brand of each, their opinions on the other brands they did not use is not that strong. No 2 LEDs are alike. And no 2 HPS are alike.

It's like saying cars suck, because of the Pinto, or that goldfish are mean predators because sharks are also fish. Or that all Christians are bad because some priest got busy with an alter boy... Same as saying all HPS suck because of 1 cheapo Chinese knockoff. Or all LEDs suck, because of the cheapo Chinese knockoffs... 

I'll only speak for or against what I have personally used.


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## Clonex (Sep 26, 2011)

No , i did read it , realised quickly it was smaller scale than i need, i too am looking for info and have done a trial if you read the rest of the thread , your comments make sense though ....


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## El Superbeasto (Sep 26, 2011)

I may have missed some of it, there was a lot I didn't read because of all the arguing.

As for coverage, LEDs work different than HPS, and they do make LEDs that will cover 4 x 4 or better, like the larger panels with the proper lens angles to cover that much area, but are lacking the overall intensity to thoroughly cover 4 x 4 or larger,_ in my opinion._ I have found with my experience, use multiple smaller to medium sized LEDs to evenly cover the entire area. Initial setup will be very costly, especially if you want to use LEDs that actually work. 

I have 3 LEDs in operation, and 1 HPS, in a 5 x 5 tent. All my lights paid for themselves after their first harvest. Occasionally I have to buy a new HPS bulb a couple times per year. And in the summer, I do have to turn the AC up higher than I would normally because of the HPS. So, my plans, are to use HPS and LEDs in the winter, and just LED in the summer. It gets dang hot here.


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## MrVanker (Sep 26, 2011)

Wow, this thread is booming... And so is FootClans post count! 

I didn't read a lot of the arguing either, so I may have missed a bit as well.



Corbat420 said:


> *-Measured in PAR and not Lumens.*


That is an interesting point. I see that when you purchase individual LEDs, they do give a Lumen output. Here is a 90W Cool White LED with a 3800lm rating. So it is possible to get LEDs with lumen ratings, there is even an 21200lm LED that is a hell of a lot cheaper than that cool white one! I bring that up, because it is obviously possible to measure LEDs by lumen output. It makes me wonder why that is not given by the grow light manufacturers. IMO it may be a sign of inferior product.

Now, one thing that I have always wondered when it comes to lights, is the relationship between wattage, lumens, and wavelengths. People seem to be very obsessed with wattage, which makes a bit of sense, after all it would make sense that more wattage = more light/more powerful light. But aren't lumens the actual measure of light output? Considering that an average spotting light (for deer) is about 19mil lumens, and runs off of a 12v car outlet, I'm not convinced that is true. It would seem that using lumens to compare would be more accurate, and could help with the LED issue.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: Candlepower to Lumen Conversion


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## El Superbeasto (Sep 26, 2011)

Lumens are what people see, PAR, or "Photosynthetically Active Radiation", is what plants see. Lumens are useless to plants.


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## MrVanker (Sep 26, 2011)

I did see a chart on the absorption of light by plants, and they had a section labeled PAR, I forgot about that. But really the only light we can't see that plants need, are UV and IR. They don't even need that much IR from what I have read. So I wouldn't say that lumens are useless to plants. Not only that, if PAR is a label for all spectrums useful to plants, then it doesn't sound like a unit of measure. Unless you measure x Lumens of PAR.

I wonder if we should be measuring our light by Radiant Flux. Luminous Flux (lumens) is the measure of perceived light output, but Radiant Flux (watts, joules, etc) which is the total power of electromagnetic radiation including IR and UV. Both are applicable, but radiant flux seems like it would be more accurate.


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## DrFever (Sep 26, 2011)

El Superbeasto said:


> Lumens are what people see, PAR, or "Photosynthetically Active Radiation", is what plants see. Lumens are useless to plants.


I Beg to differ 1000 watt bulb is a equivalent to the sun as per emitting lumens why all the hype over lumens per Sq foot lol


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## DrFever (Sep 26, 2011)

Beefbisquit said:


> Watch this
> 
> [video=youtube;kxPvN9ke2Xg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxPvN9ke2Xg[/video]


hey beef watch this ) also pics 3" clones and in 13 days there this size can a LED do this  soon as outside temps drop 16,000 watts on line 

[video=youtube;xMKhnMc4wmQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMKhnMc4wmQ&feature=related[/video]


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## El Superbeasto (Sep 26, 2011)

My point is plants can't see lumens. Lumens are for what humans see. Simple as that. 



> Lumens and Lux are measurements of how bright a light source appears to the human eye. Since the human eye is most sensitive to colors plants don't need, and
> least sensitive to colors plants prefer, Lumens can't be used to accurately compare the plant growing capability of grow lights. If a grow light manufacturer rates his grow
> light output in Lumens they are only telling you how bright the grow light will appear to you and light your room, not how well it will grow your plant.





DrFever said:


> I Beg to differ 1000 watt bulb is a equivalent to the sun as per emitting lumens why all the hype over lumens per Sq foot lol


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## virulient (Sep 26, 2011)

It's like google doesn't exist to you people. Do some research before you post. You have people saying LED's suck, and then they start talking about lumens. Plants don't give a fuck about lumens, how much usable light is getting to the plant in HID and how much usable light is getting to the plants in LED, compared to core coverage area, compared to price, and that's where the debate should start. It shouldn't be these kids using a fail $20 light after doing 2 minutes of research spreading the word "LED's don't work no matter what!!!!". And then you have people, who don't know any better, who come here to learn. And they see all these jackasses saying LED's suck. So now these people go to another thread where someone is asking about LED's and THAT thread gets hi-jacked by yet another idiot who wants his 2 minutes of fame or an increase in post count by just repeating what they heard someone else say. That process repeats itself and you get to the point where we are now. Where you can't have a public, intelligent, conversation about LEDs anymore. Starting to see why people get defensive? 

When someone who is informed on a particular subject, and they see someone else spreading mis-information on said subject, if you're trying to contribute to this community you have to correct them. People don't like being wrong. Hence arguments. It's the internet, just keep correcting the idiots and hope people get the motivation to go out and look at the facts for themselves instead of just repeating hear-say.


Disclaimer : I'm not calling anyone in particular an idiot. I wouldn't want to upset the eager moderator from last night again


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## collective gardener (Sep 26, 2011)

OK. I'm taking a deep breath to get over Footclan's rant. Trying to help keep this thread on topic is proving to be quite a challange for those of us (most of you guys) who just want to find some truth regarding the present and future potential of LED. 

Would you guys mind if I kind of backed up and tried to re-define the overiding topic to this thread? I'm thinking we're discussing the potentail for LED's to be used in larger-than-closet grows. And, the possibility of them being able to light a commercial grow. Does this sound about right?

I think most of us can agree on a few things:

1. LED's available right now are great for folks with small grows, growing short plants not needing alot of penetration.
2. There is a vast difference in the different LED's out there...some real pieces of shit...and some representing the best currently available.
3. None of us have seen a large commercial grow lit exclusively by LED's. 
4. Many of us would gladly switch to LED's if we were confident that they could produce the same size/density buds that HPS's deliver.
5. Everytime Footclan posts, the thread is totally derailed for several pages. Thank you footclan for your positive contribution.
6. The previous claims made by several LED makers regarding relatively low wattage LED's replacing 600 and 1000 watt HID's were wildly exagerated. Instead of every 1 LED watt replacing 6+ HID watts, it looks as if it wil be closer to every 1 LED watt replacing 1.5 to 2 HID watts.

I have to say that the more I look at Corbat's link to that new 600+ watt LED light, the more exited I get about the future of these things. The point made earlier regarding narrow coverage area due to how close the light must be needs to be examined by the LED companies. Perhapes the diodes need to be spread out more, making for a much larger light. This could provide a wider coverage area while still placing the light just a few inches from the tops. What concerns me is still penetration. My current canopies are 36" tall plants. The 1000 watt lights are around 24" from the tops, and I'm getting beautiful fat and very dense buds just 12" above the rockwool...48" from the lights. This contributes greatly to yield. See pic:


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## MrVanker (Sep 26, 2011)

Correct me if I'm wrong virulient, but it sounds like you're talking about a straight up comparison of HIDs to LEDs. I'm not 100% sure how much of your post is directed at me, but I am trying to talk about usable light, and figure out how much usable light it is possible to get from LEDs, and then it can be compared to HIDs.

Google is by no means foreign to me, I use it a lot when I post in forums. According to this PAR spectrum chart, which shows the correlation between absorption and photosynthesis rate, the absorption starts somewhere in the 300nm range (UV) and drops off just after 700nm. According to this light spectrum chart, the visible light spectrum starts at 380nm and stops at 740nm. So it would seem that as far as we know, all/most PAR light falls in the visible spectrum. In which case, how can lumens be disregarded? I'm not challenging, I'm actually asking. 

PAR Chart Source
Visible Light Spectrum Source


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## Corbat420 (Sep 26, 2011)

PAR Lighting has nothing to do with plants, that was a point i made 2-3 Pages ago. PAR refers to the total energy given off by a light source.



> 1 mole = 6.023 x 10^23. This number is called Avogadro's number... probably after the guy who thought this would be a good number to use for talking about atomic particles. This is like saying 1 dozen = 12. Light of course, in some mystical way, is both a particle and a wave... kind of like the Holy Trinity in Christianity. Anyways, being a particle, you can measure the amount of light in terms of the number of photons that are present. Thats how PAR is measured. The units used to be called 'einsteins' but then somebody decided it was more appropriate to use the standard term, which is 'moles'. They are one and the same thing. The interesting thing, of course, is that light of different wavelengths has different amounts of energy per photon. Even more interesting is the fact that the difference in energy makes NO difference to photosynthetic plants... Ps is a stoichiometric relationship... 1 photon yields 1 excited electron... yields 'x' number of atp atoms (I forget exactly how many).
> Dave.


Plant Light is measured in Plant Lumens, which are the Lumens produced in the spectrum of light between 340 NM and 720 NM. LED technology has teh ability to put out up-to 80% Usable light, where a HID Light puts out around 20% Usable light, when measured in PAR. but measured in Lumens plants can use up-to 90% of LED Lighting and 50% of HID Lighting.

if LED Companies started to measure Light in Usable Lumens it would be MUCH better than confusing so many people using the PAR Measurement.


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## virulient (Sep 26, 2011)

MrVanker said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong virulient, but it sounds like you're talking about a straight up comparison of HIDs to LEDs. I'm not 100% sure how much of your post is directed at me, but I am trying to talk about usable light, and figure out how much usable light it is possible to get from LEDs, and then it can be compared to HIDs.
> 
> Google is by no means foreign to me, I use it a lot when I post in forums. According to this PAR spectrum chart, which shows the correlation between absorption and photosynthesis rate, the absorption starts somewhere in the 300nm range (UV) and drops off just after 700nm. According to this light spectrum chart, the visible light spectrum starts at 380nm and stops at 740nm. So it would seem that as far as we know, all/most PAR light falls in the visible spectrum. In which case, how can lumens be disregarded? I'm not challenging, I'm actually asking.
> 
> ...


Wasn't really directed at anyone in particular, just the people who are mis-informed, or who don't do the proper legwork to understand the topic at hand. Your links are just links to 2 websites that would take days to read, so I'm not sure what, in particular you're looking at. However, I'm not discounting lumens totally, just the people who are comparing the HID lumen output vs LED lumen output, instead of measuring the amount of USABLE light, in lumens. The latter would be a worthy discussion, the former, no so much. LED's pump out more usable light, but not as intense as HID. This is one of the main reasons comparing them is difficult. 

So the question, on this particular topic, would be how many lumens would an LED need to push to equate an HID's effectiveness in usable light? And, if you can come up with the answer to that one, the next question would be penetration. Considering you get an HID and an LED, the LED pushing less lumens, but possibly MORE usable light.......but what about penetration? All of these topics can spark intriguing conversations. My post was not directed at you, but aimed at people saying "LED light A pushes X amount of lumens and HID light B pushes Z amount of lumens, and Z > X therefore HID > LED". <---That is what I am trying to avoid. 

Nice post CG!!! #5 might get you some hijacking, but I can't say I disagree with it!


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## virulient (Sep 26, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> PAR Lighting has nothing to do with plants, that was a point i made 2-3 Pages ago. PAR refers to the total energy given off by a light source.
> 
> Plant Light is measured in Plant Lumens, which are the Lumens produced in the spectrum of light between 340 NM and 720 NM. LED technology has teh ability to put out up-to 80% Usable light, where a HID Light puts out around 20% Usable light, when measured in PAR. but measured in Lumens plants can use up-to 90% of LED Lighting and 50% of HID Lighting.
> 
> if LED Companies started to measure Light in Usable Lumens it would be MUCH better than confusing so many people using the PAR Measurement.


PAR is the amount of light available for photosynthesis. To say it has nothing to do with plants is preposterous. There may be a more accurate, or less confusing, unit of measurement we could use instead of PAR, I don't know. But the simple definition of PAR directly contradicts your post.


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## MrVanker (Sep 26, 2011)

Corbat, I think we may be talking two different kinds of PAR. I'm talking about Photosynthetic Absorption Rate. It's a measure of what spectrums of light are most absorbed and used by plants. I think that the PAR you are talking about may be related, or similar, but not the same. The photosynthesis carried out by Chlorophyll A requires two electrons to be passed to a receptor in order for the process to proceed. Perhaps that is related to the electron part at the end of your quote.

V (mind if I call you that?), that is what I was trying to get at as well, lumens of usable light. I posted those charts for two reasons: 
1. In response to El Superbeasto saying that plants cannot see lumens. According to those charts, the majority of usable light falls within the visible light spectrum, which means that they can be measured in lumens and be used by the plants.
2. Just to try and spread some info. I linked those two sites, just to cite my sources for the charts. I feel that those sites can be reasonably trusted for the info.


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## virulient (Sep 26, 2011)

MrVanker said:


> Corbat, I think we may be talking two different kinds of PAR. I'm talking about Photosynthetic Absorption Rate. It's a measure of what spectrums of light are most absorbed and used by plants. I think that the PAR you are talking about may be related, or similar, but not the same. The photosynthesis carried out by Chlorophyll A requires two electrons to be passed to a receptor in order for the process to proceed. Perhaps that is related to the electron part at the end of your quote.
> 
> V (mind if I call you that?), that is what I was trying to get at as well, lumens of usable light. I posted those charts for two reasons:
> 1. In response to El Superbeasto saying that plants cannot see lumens. According to those charts, the majority of usable light falls within the visible light spectrum, which means that they can be measured in lumens and be used by the plants.
> 2. Just to try and spread some info. I linked those two sites, just to cite my sources for the charts.


Ah I see I missed that first post. V works with me! The PAR acronym stands for Photosythetically Active Radiation, although your definition was accurate enough. 

Corbat is attempting to discuss Plant Growth Lumens (PGL), which you can still find some people using if you can find some old posts about the switch to CFL's in horticulture. What he doesn't know is it is practically the same thing as PAR. 

https://growguide.opengrow.com/CFL_Lighting_101 <--This kid attempts to explain it.....its tough to read. He cites "Human Lumens" a few times...


The problem with lumens is, by definition, a lumen is the amount of VISIBLE light. However, studies have shown plants respond most efficiently to light that could be beyond what humans can perceive. Therefore we use PAR.


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## Corbat420 (Sep 26, 2011)

virulient said:


> PAR is the amount of light available for photosynthesis. To say it has nothing to do with plants is preposterous. There may be a more accurate, or less confusing, unit of measurement we could use instead of PAR, I don't know. But the simple definition of PAR directly contradicts your post.


PAR is NOT the measurement of light available for photosynthesis. it is a measurement used in Physics to explain the amount of energy given off by a light source. TOTAL energy output of the light and an available measurement of Light Intensity. <-- THIS is the PAR Used in LED Lighting, Light intensity measurement.

this is the reason it is so confusing to SO many LED Users. they are not measuring *Photosynthetic Absorption Rate*, they are measuring the Photon energy, which is only one small factor in photosynthesis.

we know that for photosynthesis to take place there must be 2 electrons present, thus there must be 2 Photon's present. when only 1/2 of the Equation is taken into account the numbers are completely strewn.

Edit: Do this. Google Light intensity and Par. see if you can actually come up with a good definition. i know my science from taking basic college level Physics....


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## MrVanker (Sep 26, 2011)

Okay, then I am still a bit confused... what do you say about most of the PAR light falling within the visible light range? That PAR chart shows the spectrum from 400nm to just past 700nm, which is the visible light spectrum. On the far left, below 400nm you get into UV light, below UV you get into Gamma radiation and X-Rays. You can infer by the direction of the line on the 400nm end, that it probably drops to 0% absorption in the 350-380nm (upper UV) range. I'm not trying to argue, just trying to wrap my head around this. I love bio, but this is more like physics! lol

EDIT: Corbat
Okay, so you are saying that when a person shops for an LED panel and sees PAR, they think Photosynthetic Active Radiation, but the company is talking about light intensity PAR?


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## Corbat420 (Sep 26, 2011)

Everything is physics.

Physics Is chemistry IS Biology. if you want to TRULY know Biology you have to know Physics and Chemistry first.

Marijuana specificly uses light as low as the 320 NM Mark. it is not absorbed by the Chlorophyll tho, it is used in the later stages of flowering to break down the chemical predecessors to THC. thats why UV/B Light is used during flowering.
Marijuana also uses Light as high as the 700 NM Mark but light between the spectrum of 380 NM and 680 NM are absorbed by the chlorophyll in the process we know as photosynthesis.
The MAIN Light spectrum Marijuana uses are the 420-460 NM and the 620-680

Chlorophyll A and B are responsible for up to 95% of the total energy absorption, Chlorophyll A is responsible for the absorption of the Red (620-680 NM) and Chlorophyll B Is responsible for the absorbtion of Blue (420-460 NM) Chlorophyll C and D are responsible for the absorption of Green Light (500-600 NM) and IR light. which is my it is impractical to run a Green or IR light.

If we were to measure in Par it would have to be Par/Sqm. this would give us an accurate reading of TRUE Light intensity. Plant Lumens (or Photosynthetic absorption rate) is a better measurement as it allows us to know the coverage of a single light.


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## virulient (Sep 26, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> PAR is NOT the measurement of light available for photosynthesis. it is a measurement used in Physics to explain the amount of energy given off by a light source. TOTAL energy output of the light and an available measurement of Light Intensity. <-- THIS is the PAR Used in LED Lighting, Light intensity measurement.
> 
> this is the reason it is so confusing to SO many LED Users. they are not measuring *Photosynthetic Absorption Rate*, they are measuring the Photon energy, which is only one small factor in photosynthesis.
> 
> ...


I cannot explain it better than this, so I will simply give you this link and hope you have the free time to read it. It will clear up any confusion for you, keep in mind the difference between Photosynthetic Absorption Rate and the measurement of Photosynthetically Active Radiation. We are talking about the latter here.. 

http://www.keithmccree.net/Biographical/BioProf/PAR.html

Keith McCree concludes, and I'm quoting "In the applied plant sciences such as plant ecology and agronomy, there is a need for a simple system for measuring the light which is active in plant growth, analogous to the photometric system for measuring the light which is useful to humans in their daily life. The best likely candidate is "photosynthetically active radiation" (PAR)." 

Throughout his career he didn't deviate. But you have taken "basic college courses in physics" so you probably know best. Who is Keith McCree anyway.....LOL.

This post just got ruined by another community college student. I'm unsubscribed.....good luck talking to that brick wall named Corbat. 

I'm gonna go


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## MrVanker (Sep 26, 2011)

And physics is based on math... I understand that. However, I am perfectly comfortable knowing that most of the foundations for what we are discussing have, for the most part, been laid for us. That's not to say that new innovations or discoveries won't be made (Neutrinos anyone?), but I think we're good.

Pretty much most of what you said, is what I have been reading. The only thing that I am still confused about (and have been for a page or two now) is the Par measurement you are talking about. I cannot find any unit of measure for light called a Par. Anywhere. I found one called peak-to-average ratio, but that applies to electrical waveforms, vibrations, radio and audio frequencies, and lastly: snoring. Also, Photosynthetic Absorption Rate is (as I understand it) the defined spectrum that the average plant uses, not a unit of measure... it's pretty much exactly what you wrote in the middle of your post.


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## Corbat420 (Sep 26, 2011)

> *not a unit of measure... it's pretty much exactly what you wrote in the middle of your post. *


thats JSUT the problem. you said it your self. PAR is NOT a unit of measure.

we NEED a unit of Measure. thats what i have been saying the whole time. we cant just say the light produces _____ PAR because thats the same as saying it prodeces ____ NM of light.

thats all well and fine, but if we only have enough light to sustain Phytoplankton then we arn't growing pot with it.

we need to know it produces ____PAR at ____ Intensity.


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## virulient (Sep 26, 2011)

MrVanker said:


> And physics is based on math... I understand that. However, I am perfectly comfortable knowing that most of the foundations for what we are discussing have, for the most part, been laid for us. That's not to say that new innovations or discoveries won't be made (Neutrinos anyone?), but I think we're good.
> 
> Pretty much most of what you said, is what I have been reading. The only thing that I am still confused about (and have been for a page or two now) is the Par measurement you are talking about. I cannot find any unit of measure for light called a Par. Anywhere. I found one called peak-to-average ratio, but that applies to electrical waveforms, vibrations, radio and audio frequencies, and lastly: snoring. Also, Photosynthetic Absorption Rate is (as I understand it) the defined spectrum that the average plant uses, not a unit of measure... it's pretty much exactly what you wrote in the middle of your post.


You can't find ANYWHERE PAR is a unit of measurement. 

As an example of the application of these principles to the practical measurement of light in plant ecology, I shall consider the measurement of "photosynthetically active radiation" (PAR). 
^^Same link as my previous post

You STILL can't find it anywhere?


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## Corbat420 (Sep 26, 2011)

virulient said:


> You can't find ANYWHERE PAR is a unit of measurement.
> 
> As an example of the application of these principles to the practical measurement of light in plant ecology, I shall consider the measurement of "photosynthetically active radiation" (PAR).
> ^^Same link as my previous post
> ...


That link was to a study in the 70s (?) Debating whether PAR should be used or not. it wasn;t saying this is what PAR is going to be from now on...... it seems it wasn't picked up since no one can find it anywhere....... and we still measure light in Lumens and Lux.

the "Science" precented there can not be followed. AT ALL. i tried looking for most of teh papers sited at the bottom and cant find any of them......


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## virulient (Sep 26, 2011)

That's your argument. The paper is dated? Nothing in that paper is false and nothing significant is missing. And we actually don't measure LED horticulture lights in lumens, we measure them in PAR. We measure them using PAR, as described and explained in that article. You know the article from 1973. The one that's still accurate.


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## MrVanker (Sep 26, 2011)

Corbat
I don't think that I was ever arguing that PAR was a unit of measure. All the knowledge I have on the subject is from yesterday and today, from Google, and this thread. I found a graph which showed what spectrums of light the average plant needs and uses. So, making an educated guess, I assumed that you could measure that light in a standard unit such as lumens, which is apparently not true. So to me, the next logical step is to figure out how that light IS measured, which leads me to V's post.

V
I hadn't seen your post until after I posted that. I am reading the page through a couple times to make sure I understand it as best I can.


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## virulient (Sep 26, 2011)

You can find more here McCree, Keith J. (1981). "Photosynthetically active radiation". In: Encyclopedia of Plant Physiology, vol. 12A. Springer-Verlag, Berlin, pp. 41-55. 

Notice the name of the book.
You might have to track down the actual book for a copy of the article in it. Nonetheless, suggesting that KeithMcCree's studies are inaccurate is just as preposterous as saying that PAR has NOTHING to do with plants.


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## MrVanker (Sep 26, 2011)

> *Conclusions*
> (1) In basic photobiological research, the spectral properties of both the irradiating source and the target should always be determined. These are difficult measurements, which should not be attempted without some competent technical help.
> *(2) In the applied plant sciences such as plant ecology and agronomy, there is a need for a simple system for measuring the light which is active in plant growth, analogous to the photometric system for measuring the light which is useful to humans in their daily life. The best likely candidate is "photosynthetically active radiation" (PAR).*
> (3) The PAR system should be based, as was the photometric system, on a single, generalized spectral response curve, which has been shown by experiment to represent the response of an "average plant" with sufficient accuracy for all practical purposes.
> ...


I almost hate to say it, but I'm with Corbat on this one. It doesn't bother me that the paper is dated, after all, Newton's Law still applies. But his conclusions state that there is a need for a defined unit to measure the light spectrums utilized by the average plant, and then goes on to define what it should entail. Perhaps we should try to find a specialist in biology.


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## virulient (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't know how you guys aren't getting this. I give up =/ Good luck guys, I guess it was entertaining..


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## MrVanker (Sep 26, 2011)

WAIT WAIT WAIT! I think I found something that may help all three of us. And I think that you will especially like it V.

Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR) Units

EDIT: I didn't read it all the way through before posting, because if possible I wanted to prevent any self-destruction of the thread. I like what it says, in fact from what I see, it's what we have been trying to define this whole time. The only problem is that there is no constant for LEDs. Perhaps we can find that elsewhere. But at least it's something.


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## virulient (Sep 26, 2011)

Wow that's what I've been saying all along! And they quoted McCree too......Are you guys done trying to disprove this guy? He's kind of a legend.....


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## MrVanker (Sep 26, 2011)

Well, seeing as I never took any sciences above high school level, and never took physics either, I think I deserve a handicap here. lol But I was not trying to disprove him, I was just being skeptical because it was a proposal, not an explanation of generally accepted 'truth'.

That being said, I see no reason why Corbat shouldn't like it either, it cites the Mol of photons thingy, that he quoted back a few pages.


...Man I could go for a bong with a nice fat bowl packed in it... Stupid bills!


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## Clonex (Sep 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> OK. I'm taking a deep breath to get over Footclan's rant. Trying to help keep this thread on topic is proving to be quite a challange for those of us (most of you guys) who just want to find some truth regarding the present and future potential of LED.
> 
> Would you guys mind if I kind of backed up and tried to re-define the overiding topic to this thread? I'm thinking we're discussing the potentail for LED's to be used in larger-than-closet grows. And, the possibility of them being able to light a commercial grow. Does this sound about right?
> 
> ...


 This is the most useful post i have read here yet, your list of where we were up to is spot on and i too keep clicking on corbat's link and looking at your photo, i cant help thinking if they were led panels they would need to be so much closer and you would lose the edge plants as coverage would be reduced, i have posted a thread asking any large scale grower using led's to get in touch, i also added that only large type growers need reply , as yet no replies.....


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## Clonex (Sep 27, 2011)

Lumens vrs Par math science mumbo jumbo eat my physics hat!! FACTS - the brighter the light stuck above your plants seems to grow them better , whatever light its putting out whatever you or your plants can see this is the fact, i saw in my supermaket today there was a bulb advertised as 1000,000 million candles strong ? (who has seen a million candles burning fgs)? The problem is LED bulbs are not intense enough, they dont penatrate enough or cover a large enough area , make a giant LED bulb , slamm 1000watts through it and i will take 4


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## collective gardener (Sep 27, 2011)

I think there's a HUGE element missing in the PAR discussion: It doesn't seem to have much impact on real world performance of a light. If it did, then the 90 watt LED would truly outperform a 400 watt HPS. We know now that this is not rue. LED makers have been using PAR numbers to sell lights for years now. LED users are forever quoting their superior PAR values, while, at the same time, growing small fluffy buds. LED's have terrific PAR numbers. Well...so what? In theory, that 's all great. But, in practice, it really doesn't mean much.

If we're to really get a grasp on what LED can do, we need to accept that PAR is not the sole determiner of a light's performance. If it was, my 12 - 1000 watt HPS's would be replaced with 12 - 200 watt LED's, and I'd be laughing all the way to the bank. Instead, if I did that, the only laughing would be us laughing at my cute little fluffy buds. 

The real test with LED will be just how many watts of LED will it REALLY take to replace a 1000 watt HPS. And, I'm not talking on paper. Paper doesn't pay the bills. I'm talking about testing a group of LED's against a group of HPS's in a REAL grow room with REAL plants. If a 600 watt LED can outperform (or just keep up with) a 1000 watt HPS, then they would be worth buying. But, what if 600 watts couldn't do it? What if it takes 800 watts? I'm not sure the time it would take to recover the initial purchase price with just a 20% electrical savings would be worth it. 

I've seen a grow in person with 2 x 400 watt LED's. The buds were no where near as big or dense as what 2 x 600 watt HPS's did on the same strain. The overall yield was about 40% less with the LED's. I should say that these were older generation LED's (2 years ago). Also, different canopy shapes/densities will clearly need to be employed to get the most out of the lights. I recently saw another grow (same person) using 2 x 400 watt induction lights. These did quite a bit better than the LED's, but fell far short of 2 x 600 watt HPS's. 

The message we need to get out to the LED makers is that we are not buying into the PAR value anymore. If you want us to buy the lights, you need to show us real grow rooms getting real results. This means spending some $$$ and giving some lights away to growers active in the forums who will run and publish tests. I promise you that when Company X finally produces the light we've been promised, they will be all too happy to send out a bunch of demos to show our community that they've done it. Company X will also be richly rewarded with insane sales. I know that I'll take 12 of em, and I have a friend who will take 40 of em. Commercial growers coast to coast are just waiting for the right product. The initial purchase price is not nearly as big of a deal as many would think. Most of us are not operating on a shoestring, and will happily make large capitol investments that make sense.


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## MrVanker (Sep 27, 2011)

I do agree with your post. I was interested in PAR values because I hadn't heard of them before, and as somebody who wants to build my own LED panel, I wanted to know about the subject. However, I do have to agree with what you say. If/When I build, I don't think I'll pay attention to PAR ratings, I will pay attention to wavelength and power. And all of that is just from an electronics hobbyist, and personal grow paradigm.

I think you are right about the commercial solutions as well. Growers have never really (that I know of) dealt with or cared too much about PAR ratings, because they aren't really applied to HID or even CFL lights, and that doesn't seem to have mattered. Instead of taking a finer calibration approach, the companies should just go balls to the wall, and throw a bunch of high powered LEDs into the panel.


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## virulient (Sep 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I think there's a HUGE element missing in the PAR discussion: It doesn't seem to have much impact on real world performance of a light. If it did, then the 90 watt LED would truly outperform a 400 watt HPS. We know now that this is not rue. LED makers have been using PAR numbers to sell lights for years now. LED users are forever quoting their superior PAR values, while, at the same time, growing small fluffy buds. LED's have terrific PAR numbers. Well...so what? In theory, that 's all great. But, in practice, it really doesn't mean much.
> 
> If we're to really get a grasp on what LED can do, we need to accept that PAR is not the sole determiner of a light's performance. If it was, my 12 - 1000 watt HPS's would be replaced with 12 - 200 watt LED's, and I'd be laughing all the way to the bank. Instead, if I did that, the only laughing would be us laughing at my cute little fluffy buds.
> 
> ...


This is what I was attempting to say in one of my earlier posts. How many LED watts is it going to take to match a 600w, or 1000w HID in yield....or penetration....or density, etc...? THESE are the truly intriguing question in my opinion, and should be the focus of our conversation. (Hopefully with some real-world testing to back it up.) 100% agree with what you said!


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## hoss12781 (Sep 27, 2011)

In a real life example I replaced 800w of hid and around 400w of clf with 690w of mostly 3w chipset leds. In my opinion and experience its probably somewhere in the nieghborhood of 2/3 the wattage you had with hid/cfl to fully switch out all lighting to led without losing weight.

While the 600w plus leds look cool, I'm still sticking to my guns that it is better to have this wattage broken up into several units in your garden as this allows for a modular set up. A diode driven at 2.1w, the typical firing wattage of a 3w chipset diode will only put out so much light intensity at a certain distance. This is why I like mine spread out into several different unit to maximize 180 degree coverage.


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## hoss12781 (Sep 27, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> PAR Lighting has nothing to do with plants, that was a point i made 2-3 Pages ago. PAR refers to the total energy given off by a light source.
> 
> Plant Light is measured in Plant Lumens, which are the Lumens produced in the spectrum of light between 340 NM and 720 NM. LED technology has teh ability to put out up-to 80% Usable light, where a HID Light puts out around 20% Usable light, when measured in PAR. but measured in Lumens plants can use up-to 90% of LED Lighting and 50% of HID Lighting.
> 
> if LED Companies started to measure Light in Usable Lumens it would be MUCH better than confusing so many people using the PAR Measurement.


I really don't want to sound like a tool for the company I chose but Hydro Hut does give out its usable lumen for each of the Pro-Grow Models on the site. I will say thier comparisons are slightly inflated when they look to comapre to HID and number of plants covered. In my experience the 180 PG (130w power draw)will cover two plants for sure, they claim 3 which might be a stretch and is probably more equal to about a 250w hps (instead of a 400w). The 260 PG def equiv to a 400w hid probably slightly more than that and will cover 4 very easily (the six they claim is probably pushing it). 

For reference the 180 produces 8,500 lumens, the 260 13,400 lumens. They were one of the only companies I could find during my research that gave a usable lumen measurement instead of a PAR measurment, one of the reasons I wound up getting these, that and I found some going for less than retail on Ebay, saw they were head and shoulders above the shitty 90w ufos I owned at the time and decided to take the full led plunge. The lumen measurements were later verified in my home garden with my light meter in case anyone cares.


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## hoss12781 (Sep 27, 2011)

there was another company I was researching when trying to find a good led light that gives lumen measurements - www.growlightpro.com. The broken english used on the site and the way they openly slam other led companies (even if some deserve it), was what scared me away from purchasing these. For reference when I took the light meter to my hydro hut lights I measured 12 inches away from the lamp, the lumen measurement given at hydropnicshut.com on my 180 and 250 (2010 model, now the 260 for 2011) was accurate for a coverage area of 2.2 by 3.4 ft. coverage area for the PG 180, 2.7 by 4 ft for the PG 250.


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## watchhowIdoit (Sep 27, 2011)

Jack Harer said:


> One of the very few things in the cultivation of MJ where you actually DO get what you pay for.


Well said. 90watt UFOs are pretty useless. $1500.00 Stealth Grow panel on the other hand will impress....


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## Corbat420 (Sep 27, 2011)

my point proved its self out over time.

you guy's rambled on for PAGES about PAR, what does that tell you? PAR is not good as a measurment, even growers tring to come to s conclusion cant come up with an accurate measurment for "PAR".

like Collective said:


> *The real test with LED will be just how many watts of LED will it REALLY take to replace a 1000 watt HPS. And, I'm not talking on paper. Paper doesn't pay the bills. I'm talking about testing a group of LED's against a group of HPS's in a REAL grow room with REAL plants. **If a 600 watt LED can outperform (or just keep up with) a 1000 watt HPS, then they would be worth buying. But, what if 600 watts couldn't do it? What if it takes 800 watts? I'm not sure the time it would take to recover the initial purchase price with just a 20% electrical savings would be worth it. *


IF an LED light of 600 Watts could Put our 150,000 Lumens then it would be a More intense light from less electricity, and out preform a 1000W light, which gets an initial Lumens of 140,000...... this is what we have been talking about the whole time.

P.S: you still need to know Lumens to know how to Multiply lm/m2, which is how they find "Par", through Lux.... . therefor we are still actualy measuring LUMENS.


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## hoss12781 (Sep 27, 2011)

watchhowIdoit said:


> Well said. 90watt UFOs are pretty useless. $1500.00 Stealth Grow panel on the other hand will impress....


I still like my 90w ufos, I have two Chinese ones - would never use them as top lights but rock well enough for side lighting. They have their place, on the sides supplimenting a real led light on top. 

I bought them before I started doing some serious led research and figured what the hell might as well keep 'em as the general public has pretty much figured out they aren't all that and I won't be able to get my money back flipping them on ebay. If you can pick one up for $50 bucks its worth it, anything more probably not. I also took my light meter to those. A no name 90w ufo single watt diode produced 2,300 lumens at 12 inches covering a 1.5 by 1.5 ft area. My 2w diode 90 watter from LED Wholesalers did slightly better at 3,450 at 12 inches over a 1.8 by 1.8 ft. area.


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## hoss12781 (Sep 27, 2011)

way to contribute to the conversation tony


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## Corbat420 (Sep 27, 2011)

r1tony said:


> Someday I am going to post up my harvest when I stood by my plants for 65 days with a Bic Lighter for light. FU LEDS... BIC FTW!


Hellz yea man, people would be AMAZED. i grew 32 LBS with a Flashlite one time, it was in this closet.... it was AWSOME. lmfao.

well back to reality here anyways.....



> *My 2w diode 90 watter from LED Wholesalers did slightly better at 3,450 at 12 inches over a 1.8 by 1.8 ft. area. *


^ This is exactly what i mean. we need Lumen readings for specific models, then we can compair Diode wattage to Lumen output and compaire that to CFL and HID Lighting.

i know Good CFL's get an average of 65~ Lumens Per watt. and my 1000 W puts out 140 Lumens Per Watt. for LED's to be better thay have to put out 160+ Lumens PER Watt. i figure the only LED bulbs able to do this are the 5W Diodes.

P.S: i just found out the average 5W Diode Gets around 200 Lumens. thats 50~ Lumens per Watt. a 42W CFL gets 66 Lumens per watt. meaning the efficency of CFL light is higher than the LED light......


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## collective gardener (Sep 27, 2011)

When I'm setting up lights in a room, I'm looking for at least 25,000 lum everywhere. The bulk of the canopy will be recieving closer to 50,000 lum, with some tops getting 60,000+ lums. The hard and simple truth is that more light makes bigger, denser, and better looking buds. This is true right up until the light gets so bright it cooks the plant.


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## Clonex (Sep 27, 2011)

Well this thread gets better by the day , my stance is this , i can not spend 8k on the top LED panels until somebody out there ( and i believe this not possible) proves to me that the intensity and coverage is there and that my buds will not lose any of there density , i remain unconvinced at this point , howvever much i wanna reduce my carbon footprint , it aint happening in 2011, LED companies will hopefully get there INFORMATION correct , review there pricing structures and stop fillings ppl's heads full of junk , HID is a proven way to grow quality indoor plants(large area's) , LED's of any type are lacking such proof. 

Ps when i go into my bloom room later i need to light a million candles , has anyone got some spare time and a lighter ?


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## hoss12781 (Sep 27, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> Hellz yea man, people would be AMAZED. i grew 32 LBS with a Flashlite one time, it was in this closet.... it was AWSOME. lmfao.
> 
> well back to reality here anyways.....
> 
> ...


Yeah lumens per watt the cfl wins in that scenario but are they all, or at least 90% of the lumens in the spectrum the plant needs? They are not. I was running over 120,000 lumens on my old hps/cfl rig. With led the total lumens, adding up all my panels and ufos is only 58,000. I haven't sacrificed weight and believe the quality to be much better with a decreased electricity cost and lights that are under warranty for three years, i.e. - I won't have to replace any expensive hps or 105w cfl bulbs like I was doing every six to eight months.


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## Corbat420 (Sep 27, 2011)

hoss you dont understant when you say 


> *but are they all, or at least 90% of the lumens in the spectrum the plant needs?*


you should understant that ANY light between 420-480 NM if good for Veg and ANY light between 600-680 NM for Flowering is absorbed. with a very small amounth of light being absorbed vice versa.

if you use 6500K Bulbs for Veg and 2700K Bulbs for Flowering then 80% of the light is absorbed, even using CFL's or HID lights, because those bulbs produce light in the Red and Blue Spectrum of light, with a VERY small portion in green light, which is also absorbed...... CFL Lights produce MORE Absorb able energy then the LED Equililent because plants don't differentiate.



> *I was running over 120,000 lumens on my old hps/cfl rig.*


did you use MH Bulbs and 6500K Bulbs for veg, with a 10% placement of 2700K Bulbs? and HPS with 2700K Bulbs and a 10% Placement of 6500K Bulbs for flowering?? because you have to know what your doing to get the best results.

my plants get an average of 10,000 Lumens per plant in flowering....i get the same buds as people who use 50,000+ Lumens per plant because i know what light to supplement to the plants.


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## hoss12781 (Sep 27, 2011)

Both of my ballasts were switchable, I ran plantmax mh for the first two weeks then plantmax hps for the rest (I grow autos). I used 5000k and 2700k cfls as side lighting switched at the appropriate times. They really aren't as efficient as leds when it comes to usable lumens. It&#8217;s a long read but Penn State is usually right http://www.personal.psu.edu/u0y/nanoreef/papers/360204hs.pdf. Sorry to get all scientific, I work for a division 1 research institution (not Penn State) as a fundraiser. One of my primary and favorite assignments is raising awareness and support for environmental preservation and energy efficient greenhouses. I'm not a researcher so take my posts for what you will. I&#8217;m the PR guy who kisses wealthy ass to get funding for the brainiacs to do experiments, some of which have compared led to hps and cfl. 

I understand and appreciate your stance on the vast differences in light absorption between the veg and flower stages, this is what led (pun intended) me to buy leds that have spectrum control. I only illuminate the blues shades during veg, go full spectrum for about 5 weeks, then all reds during the last two weeks of flowering (again, autos avg 9 weeks or so seed to harvest). 

Switching out Kelvin temp bulbs at the appropriate times does improve lumen efficacy, there is no doubt here. I'm just saying I believe I'm getting more bang per lumen with switchable spectrum leds. How else could I have dropped almost 1/2 the lumens from my grow room and maintained the same yield.


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## hoss12781 (Sep 27, 2011)

Really not trying to start a pissing contest here. Just sharing experiences. Your avatar is bad ass btw


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## Clonex (Sep 27, 2011)

hoss12781 said:


> Really not trying to start a pissing contest here. Just sharing experiences. Your avatar is bad ass btw


Yeah i agree , that chick is ooozzzing quality's


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## panhead (Sep 27, 2011)

dannyboy602 said:


> Stay away from LED's? Oooooh scare tactics. New technology comes along and some people get excited and some people get defensive. Pity. But someone said here it may be bad for you? Or your eyes? Or something to that effect. I've been wearing sunglasses in my led area because of nausea. But aside from that I don't worry...pfft..I already have skin cancer anyway.


Its not just you who wears glasses in the grow room,i were glasses in the bud rooms too,i also wear head cover if im going to be working near the hps lights.

I can only be exposed to hps light for a few minutes without getting a head ache,a 15 minute period where the hps light hits my unprotected head will give me a migrane that will drop me to my knee's,needless to say i try not to forget to put on a white headband before entering the room in full light mode.

Ive had migranes so bad ive thrown up violently,this is before i started wearing eye & skull protection.


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## zvuv (Sep 27, 2011)

skunkd0c said:


> HIDs grow excellent weed for a cheap setup, if something is not broken why try to fix it ?
> 
> although if i were a hipster hid's would be way to mainstream for me, i would have to choose LED'S


Really! HID's just fucking grow dope! Even if you screw up, you still get a nice chunk of dope and when you add it all up, they are probably cheaper than any alternative.

If you are using HID's there's no end of people who can help you if you have a question.

Sure if you want to have fun and experiment, LEDs could be good. But if your goal is just to grow dope then HIDs rule.


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## Corbat420 (Sep 27, 2011)

hoss12781 said:


> Really not trying to start a pissing contest here. Just sharing experiences. Your avatar is bad ass btw


  i dont want to start a pissing contest either, im sure we both get enough of those in the workplace....... im a horticulturalist in Northern BC, i deal with alot of people who know alot but cant accept there is more out there they dont know. i like to think of myself as one of the people around that has an open mind on these kinds of things.

Horticulture is more to do with greenhouses and gardens than lights, so its not exactly my forte, but Plant growth is one of my specialties  maybe together we can come up with some REAL conclusions.

P.S: What brands of LED are you using? (PM me if you don't feel comfortable posting it here) i got into the LED debate because of there potential for vegetative growth, but haven't been able to find a model to compete with my Homemade 380 Watt CFL Fixture. i want to take a look into those models, maybe i can find something worth it 

P.P.S: im doing some heavy readin with that pen state paper, there is some stuff in there i just LOVE to talk about, like the duty ratio of intermittent light. Which is one of the things LED manufacturers need to take into consideration.... light pulsing is actualy GOOD for plant growth  HID lights have a 1/1000 Pulse ration, one of teh reasons they are manufactured for plant growth....


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## Corbat420 (Sep 27, 2011)

i jsut found this and thought you might like to know.... i found the manufacturer for the LED's used in the Penn state study. http://www.ipled.com/index.php/home

some VERY crazy LED tech coming from these guys......


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## Clonex (Sep 27, 2011)

what do we think of this unit ? Corbat , CM , JH ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyjVzBNlEKQ


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## hoss12781 (Sep 27, 2011)

zuzuv you're correct, there aren't a lot of people out there that can give good led advice. 

Haven't read the link yet Corbat but will - bout to head home for the day. I'm not too worried about people griping at me for which brand I use, my skin is thick enough. I use mostly the Pro Grow series from Hydroponics Hut. It was the only brand I could find that allowed me to switch the spectrum and had the warranty I needed to justify my investment. 

That and I spoke with my exec director of my bio sciences field station about lighting (pertains to my job). He said if I was going to buy something to replace hid in my wife's veggie garden (for the record I do actually grow veggies in addition to mj) it should be a light that allows me to control which spectrum is firing. This made sense given I was already switching mh/hps and different kelving temp cfls. 

Thanks for sharing the links I'll be sure to check them with my morning coffee tomorrow!


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## virulient (Sep 27, 2011)

Clonex said:


> what do we think of this unit ? Corbat , CM , JH ?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyjVzBNlEKQ


They're claiming 165w on 26 LEDs. They would have to be using 6w LEDs, yet they fail to mention the brand LED they use, or their true current draw. They might talk about some of that on that video, but I'm not big on watching 30 minute infomercials on products that seem fishy.


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## Beefbisquit (Sep 28, 2011)

There's absolutely no reason you couldn't grow with these panels spaced every 6 feet....

[video=youtube;mjS56yn-qIE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjS56yn-qIE[/video]

Also, http://www.cree.com/


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## jdmcwestevo (Sep 28, 2011)

Cmh is the future of growing


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## collective gardener (Sep 28, 2011)

Beefbisquit said:


> There's absolutely no reason you couldn't grow with these panels spaced every 6 feet....
> 
> [video=youtube;mjS56yn-qIE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjS56yn-qIE[/video]
> 
> Also, http://www.cree.com/


 
84 days for Chem?


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## virulient (Sep 28, 2011)

This thread turned into a troll-fest, unfortunately.


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## SmokesLikeBob (Sep 28, 2011)

MrVanker said:


> I thought we had already been reminded of that courtesy... not even 12 hours ago...





virulient said:


> .............





collective gardener said:


> A little redundant comment. The guy changed it. Did you just need to get in that last little snip? How cheesy.





Orithil said:


> Seems pretty snippy to point this out when the guy changed it.
> 
> OT : For someone like me, who only needs to flower like 2-3 plants at a time to keep up with my needs, I think LEDs have potential. But I also agree that at this point, for large operations, they're not even close to practical. But that pr0fesseur has a neat thread up showing even more alternatives. https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/358190-led-without-leds-my-first.html is what I'm talking about. Where do you think this weighs in on the heat/growth scale for small growers?


 Wow, sorry guys...For some reason, I didn't see the comment with his apology. Must've overlooked it somehow, probably too baked! Lol My bad...


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## virulient (Sep 28, 2011)

Haha, it's all good, it happens. Thanks for clearing things up.


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## Orithil (Sep 28, 2011)

SmokesLikeBob said:


> Wow, sorry guys...For some reason, I didn't see the comment with his apology. Must've overlooked it somehow, probably too baked! Lol My bad...


Awesomesauce, that's a nice thing to see in here.


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## reggae234 (Sep 28, 2011)

Sorry man but leds are great u just gotta make sure the diode angle, band, wavelength and spectrum are correct. The cheap 14 w led panels use make just more lumens than a cfl only its 95 percent efficient. However those 1w diode do not penetrate canopy well. Use those panels as side lighting where they are within.6 in of the plant and u will see them move along. Or get a UFO. Just not a cheap Chinese one


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## Beefbisquit (Sep 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> 84 days for Chem?


84 days isn't worth 1.32g/w? Of weed that looks like that? hahaha... You're off your rocker.


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## collective gardener (Sep 28, 2011)

Off my rocker? For asking a question? Did I insult the grow? Was I rude in any way? I wasn't even reffering to the lights. My question was why would any chem take 84 days? It's a 60 day plant...always has been. I'm growing some Tahoe OG X Chem Dawg right now that finishes in 56 days. My question is related to the strain. Please take your rude comments somewhere else. Many of us have worked to keep this thread polite...which can be difficult with any LED discussion. Then here you come. Thanks.


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## Corbat420 (Sep 28, 2011)

> * My question was why would any chem take 84 days? It's a 60 day plant.*


im with collective on this one, as it is a widely known fact that marijuana receiving the proper amount of light will finish in the desired time with proper dark periods and no light leaks. with marijuana receiving a high amount of light, with proper nutrient regimes, can also shorten the flowering time.

it is ALSO widely known that when a plant, any plant, does not receive the proper amount of light the development of that plant will be slowed, when a 60 day (8-9 week) Strain takes 82 Days (12 weeks....) That is usually a sure sign that the plants are light deficient.

Edit: Major stoner grammar lol.



> *84 days isn't worth 1.32g/w?*


not if i can do a 42 day flowering time, and get 1G/Watt. im a perpetual SoG Grower, more small plants> few large ones. the main strain i grow finishes in 42 days (6 weeks) 1/2 the flowring time of the 82 days. over those 82 days i Will harvest 2G/Watt compaired to the 1.32G/W you harvested......


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## zvuv (Sep 28, 2011)

Well I find LED grow lights very interesting. IMO they have a big future and will eventually displace both HID's and CFLs as being both the cheapest and the most effective grow lights. HID's & CFL's are improving too, but there is a limit to what you can get out of that technology. Both HID & CFLs require thin glass envelopes holding a vacum. There's a limit to how cheaply those can be made and the handling expenses reduced. Solid state technology may be expensive to set up but once you have the manufacturing set up, you can crank them out for very little cost.

Right now, it's still early days and they are damn expensive. In a couple of years there will be better units for a lot less money.


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## collective gardener (Sep 29, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> im with collective on this one, as it is a widely known fact that marijuana receiving the proper amount of light will finish in the desired time with proper dark periods and no light leaks. with marijuana receiving a high amount of light, with proper nutrient regimes, can also shorten the flowering time.
> 
> it is ALSO widely known that when a plant, any plant, does not receive the proper amount of light the development of that plant will be slowed, when a 60 day (8-9 week) Strain takes 82 Days (12 weeks....) That is usually a sure sign that the plants are light deficient.
> 
> ...


 
Corbat, I was thinking the same thing, but really just wanted to address the rudeness. Also, I'd like to see the pile of buds that added up to 1.34 gms/watt. I'd bet my next harvest that over 50% of those buds were too small and too fluffy to market....but they were still counted.

I used to get around 20% unmarketable buds until I started heavily pruning for quality. Canopys like the one shown in the vid will produce a pile of unmarketable buds. Since I started growing for various collectives, I've had to fine tune my canopy for bud size and density. These buyers are very finicky over what they will purchase. With proper pruning I was able to maintain my yield, but 100% of it is marketable. When I used to grow a very dense SOG ( like the one in the vid), I would end up with too much small/loose stuff...only good for hash and edibles. I'm convinced that LED's still don't have the penetration needed to pump up the lower buds. I do think that they're good enough now to get some good yields with the proper canopy. If I were using LED, I would grow 4 un-topped plants/sq ft to a finished height of around 14". I think that any taller would just produce larfy lower buds. If you look at the plants in my grow op, you'll see 36" plants with golf balls just 6" above the medium. 

I guess my point is, I still would like to see a large LED grow totally. This means close up pics of the WHOLE pile. Most underlit gardens can produce some good looking tops. I believe the vid is showing the best buds, and quoting yields from the whole pile. Unfortunately, it takes more than just tops to fill those turkey bags. Your point about low light = long flowering times is well put. 

I curious that none of us have brought up induction lighting. I know there are fewer producers, and thus less marketing going around. I've seen the 400's in action and was more impressed by those that any LED I've seen. Has anyone seen any links to some big induction grows????


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## virulient (Sep 29, 2011)

If anyone wants some solid information regarding plasma lighting : https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/452030-c-wiz-green-lab-amc-44.html 
Check out pages 42-44 on that post. Thanks again to Cannawizard for providing us with that info.


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## Corbat420 (Sep 29, 2011)

> *I used to get around 20% unmarketable buds until I started heavily pruning for quality. Canopys like the one shown in the vid will produce a pile of unmarketable buds. Since I started growing for various collectives, I've had to fine tune my canopy for bud size and density. These buyers are very finicky over what they will purchase. With proper pruning I was able to maintain my yield, but 100% of it is marketable.*


i know EXACTLY what you mean about unmarketable buds. i used to get 20-30% unmarketable buds from my grows until i started to prune away bud sites and learn to maintain a proper canopy, now its 100% marketable buds. im not selling with any growers collective but im in BC, canada, and in a competative market like this you get a better price for quality, so its very much worth it to go the "extra mile" to get dense, marketable buds.

as for your question on induction lighting i have found one of the best explanations i have heard for it as of yet:


> *EFDL Induction Lighting*​ EFDL technology works very similar to fluorescent lighting, but it does not have electrodes to excite gases. Instead it uses electromagnetic induction at 2.65 MHz, the result, is an extremely long life with low light degradation and high light output with very little heat output. Much like LED, they produce targeted spectrums for energy conservation, but this technology has a higher light output at 45 lumens/watt compared to LED which produces 12 lumens/watt. Some models are IP65 rated which means, protected against dust and low pressure jets if water from all directions, and therefore safe for indoor hydroponic gardening, where the potential for exposure to water could arise. They are estimated to have 100,000 hours life spam which is twice that of LED, with no maintenance as required by HID, and a 5 year prorated warranty. The only disadvantage is the weight of the units, ranging from 18-22 Kg depending on the model purchased, so secure installation is extremely necessary.​


its from an AN advertising site, so im not going to link it, theres nothing there anyways. but i thought it was a great explanation.
the MAIN manufacturers of induction lighting is china. you have to order the lights from china, and there not the best right now. a 300W will replace a 600W but IDK about a 1000......

Found this: http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-lighting/173635-new-induction-grow-light-2.html
Page #2, Post #30.


> The purple vegged very nice and kept up with the 6400K, but when it went to bud it fell way short. The first pic is a side by side, the second is the purple Mland. bud and the ones in the yellow light is the 2700K. We vegged with 6400K and budded with 2700K VS. veg and bud with purple Mland.
> As you can see the yield is no where near the 2700K. Both set ups where 300 watt induction. We believe the 400 watter will keep up with a 1000HPS as the 300's are just shy compared to 1000hps.


there ARE pictures as well. it seems good so far.

​


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## collective gardener (Sep 29, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> i know EXACTLY what you mean about unmarketable buds. i used to get 20-30% unmarketable buds from my grows until i started to prune away bud sites and learn to maintain a proper canopy, now its 100% marketable buds. im not selling with any growers collective but im in BC, canada, and in a competative market like this you get a better price for quality, so its very much worth it to go the "extra mile" to get dense, marketable buds.
> 
> as for your question on induction lighting i have found one of the best explanations i have heard for it as of yet:
> its from an AN advertising site, so im not going to link it, theres nothing there anyways. but i thought it was a great explanation.
> ...


I've seen a couple 400 watt induction lights in person. They were doing pretty good. They are heavy, and pretty big. The ones I saw were about 36" long x around 15" wide. The guy was lighting a 2' x 4' area with each light, combined to make a 4' x 4' area. I saw the buds at around 6 weeks into bloom. They were not as big as proper HID lighting, but bigger and denser than any LED I had ever seen. The canopy was proper for the lights, being short and relatively dense. The lights run very cool. I don't know what the end yield was, as I was just just there to add a sub-panel for the rest of the grow. These were in a large commercial op. The grower was testing the induction lights for consideration in using them in his expansion. I do know that he ended up using HID's. So, we can deduce that the outcome wasn't overly impressive. I know this grower wouldn't even flinch at high initial purchase price.


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## meowth (Sep 29, 2011)

FootClan said:


> lol um seems you know nothing..... I didnt say ANYTHING about plants not needing UVB you dumb ass.....I said that MH dosent give off that much UVB then i went on to say that the very little UVB that comes out of a MH bulb will be further filterd by the glass in the air cooled hood..... So before you jump in talking stupid you should try RE- reading what i wrote ........ I know all about UVB rays and what it does for plants and how it can improve THC but not CBD..
> 
> THE POINT OF MY RESPONSE WAS TO IMFORM PEOPLE THAT YOU DONT GET ALOT OF UVB RAYS FROM A MH BULB AND IF YOU ARE USING A AIR COOLED HOOD WITH GLASS YOU GET ALMOST NO UVB RAYS......... I WASNT saying that plants dont need UVB rays......... Congrats you just earned dumbest post of the day!!


Dude, get over yourself. You earned the dumbest post of the day by far. Denile is more than a river in Egypt.


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## zvuv (Sep 29, 2011)

FootClan said:


> the amount of UVB that you get from a MH is not hat much and if you use a hood with a glass its almost completetly filtered out......


That's right. In fact not much UV gets past the glass envelope of the bulb itself.


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## Derrickb16 (Sep 29, 2011)

IMO though I've never used LED's but I'm pretty sure it was probably the brand of LED if anything you should blame the manufacturer


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## virulient (Sep 29, 2011)

footclan and zvuv need to get a room. It's obvious all this name calling is just a cover for their deep and affectionate love for each other. UR NOT FOOLING ME GAIS


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## zvuv (Sep 29, 2011)

virulient said:


> footclan and zvuv need to get a room. It's obvious all this name calling is just a cover for their deep and affectionate love for each other. UR NOT FOOLING ME GAIS


I did not call anyone names. The only post I ever read by footclan was the one I quoted on UV. I have some professional experience in that area so I thought I would offer what I know.


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## virulient (Sep 29, 2011)

zvuv said:


> I did not call anyone names. The only post I ever read by footclan was the one I quoted on UV. I have some professional experience in that area so I thought I would offer what I know.


Oh my fault I got you confused with the other guy. Idk how, I think I might smoke too much.........NAAAAAAHH


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## zvuv (Sep 29, 2011)

virulient said:


> Oh my fault I got you confused with the other guy. Idk how, I think I might smoke too much.........NAAAAAAHH


np  I usually am the other guy but today I thought I would take a break and just be myself.


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## FootClan (Sep 29, 2011)

MrVanker said:


> Wow, this thread is booming... And so is FootClans post count!
> 
> I didn't read a lot of the arguing either, so I may have missed a bit as well.
> 
> ...


does post count mean somthing?? is post count a thing we want?? why do i care how many posts i have??


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## virulient (Sep 29, 2011)

FootClan said:


> does post count mean somthing?? is post count a thing we want?? why do i care how many posts i have??


I think he means you have posted a lot in this thread. Maybe if you didn't make a couple of defensive posts on every single page of this thread people would notice you a little less.


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## zvuv (Sep 29, 2011)

MrVanker said:


> Now, one thing that I have always wondered when it comes to lights, is the relationship between wattage, lumens, and wavelengths. People seem to be very obsessed with wattage, which makes a bit of sense, after all it would make sense that more wattage = more light/more powerful light. But aren't lumens the actual measure of light output? Considering that an average spotting light (for deer) is about 19mil lumens, and runs off of a 12v car outlet, I'm not convinced that is true. It would seem that using lumens to compare would be more accurate, and could help with the LED issue.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> EDIT: Candlepower to Lumen Conversion


Lumens are essentially Watts adjusted for human vision. The eye does not see all colors equally. It is most sensitive to green, much less so with blue and red. It takes many more red or blue watts to appear as bright as green watts.

The eye response is called the 'photopic' response



In the chart, black is the daylight response and green the night time.

Plants also have a response curve, several actually but generically they are called the PAR curve (Photo Active Response ).



View attachment 1812920

The thing to notice is that there is a big hole in the middle of the spectrum right where the photopic response would be. Plants don't see green well at all. ( Green colored leaves means that the green part of the light is not being absorbed by the leaf). Plants love red and blue. Which is why we use either 2200K HIDs or 6500K but not 4000K.

Long story short, lumens are for people and about worthless for plants.


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## virulient (Sep 29, 2011)

Lumens are fine for comparing HID to HID. When you start talking about lights with lower lumen output BECAUSE of their PAR value it's different. It's like saying my apple weighs 2 pounds but my orange only weighs 1.5 pounds. Therefore I conclude Apples > Oranges. Lumens just don't work for LED's because they emit light that we cannot see, or cannot see AS WELL. HID has their high lumens, LED has their high PAR. We need a unit of measurement that works better for integrating PAR value with light intensity.


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## MrVanker (Sep 29, 2011)

Zuuv and Virulient's last two posts just about summed up what we were talking about a few days ago. Now it makes a lot more sense to me


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## Corbat420 (Sep 30, 2011)

> *
> Long story short, lumens are for people and about worthless for plants. *


unless those Lumens are presented in 450 NM and 650 NM like they are when you are using a HPS light. the majority of the radiation is in the blue (400 NM) and red spectrum (600 NM) of light which is why HPS dominate the market.

if you go back and actualy READ you might learn something. MOST of the light plants use is in the visual spectrum of light,



> *I've tride three LED fixtures. The first two were crap. They I found the one.
> If you are switching out a 600 watt HPS for a 330 watt Lumigrow you can expect 20% less crop production, but you are using half the wattage so you come out ahead with you look at the gram per watt being produced. Also the quality was higher than with my hps, with less heat and noise. *


almost everyone here has allready seen this video. its NOT ACCURATE.

goto then end of the video, 24:00, you will see that the HPS light is placed 6 feet above the canopy of the plants. a 600W light is meant to be places 24" (2 Feet) Away from the plants. Light intensity DOUBLES for every foot closer to HID Lights you get, at 6 Feet a 600W HPS Was delivering 80 PAR..... it doubles for Every foot thus, 80x4=240 Par At 2 feel.

Thats 240 PAR and 100,000 Initial Lumens from the HPS Lamp. at 3 Feet the LED Delivers 160 PAR and around 4,000 Lumens........ even with the small amount of wasted energy the HPS light comes out on top if you actualy do the math..........

P.S: you probably havn't read this either, the PENN State paper...... http://www.personal.psu.edu/u0y/nanoreef/papers/360204hs.pdf


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## zvuv (Sep 30, 2011)

virulient said:


> Lumens are fine for comparing HID to HID. When you start talking about lights with lower lumen output BECAUSE of their PAR value it's different. It's like saying my apple weighs 2 pounds but my orange only weighs 1.5 pounds. Therefore I conclude Apples > Oranges.....


Yes. That was going to be my next post. You scooped me. I'll say it anyway 

Lumens are useful to compare two lights with the _same spectra - i.e. _MH to MH (if the color temps are the same), HPS to HPS. If one lamp puts out more lumens than the other, then it must be putting out correspondingly more PAR watts or the spectra couldnt be the same.

'PAR Watts' would be more useful to growers, but while I've seen it discussed as a concept, I've never seen a PAR rating given for a bulb. I don't think it's practical to do that. Lumens are based on the generic photopic response (see above). Nobody's eyes respond quite like that graph but humans are one species and their vision similar enough that the generalized response works. But with plants there are thousands of different species and while their PAR graphs all have the same general shape, there is enough variation to make it impractical to give a PAR rating for a bulb. You would have to give a whole series of figures for different kinds of crops.

What we really need is a _Marijuana PAR_ rating! I think this might indeed happen. MJ cultivation is a niche market of increasing importance and I guess that sooner or later some grow light mfr is going to publish one for his lights to get more sales.

Most of the light bulb industry's business is about providing lighting for people to see. This is why lumens ratings are always given.

One important thing about lumens is that they are an _output_ rating. The wattage rating for bulbs measures the electrical power the bulb consumes, not the actual watts of light that it outputs. If we can't get PAR Watt ratings, then _output watt_ ratings would be useful to growers but this isnt supplied either. Why would it be? If you are buying a bulb for light to see by, watts are not very useful since they don't tell y ou how bright the bulb appears to the eye. 

So even though lumens aren't well suited to assessing a bulb for growing, the fact that they are an output rating makes them very useful for the apples to apples comparison that virulient described.


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## Corbat420 (Sep 30, 2011)

> *What we really need is a marijuana PAR rating! I think this might indeed happen. MJ cultivation is a niche market of increasing importance and I guess that sooner or later some grow light mfr is going to publish one for his lights to get more sales.*


http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-01/us/arizona.marijuana.superstore_1_marijuana-dispensary-medical-cannabis-laws-against-marijuana-distribution?_s=PM:US

its coming  and its what we NEED.


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## 4tatude (Sep 30, 2011)

subbed... great topic n discusson


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## zvuv (Sep 30, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-01/us/arizona.marijuana.superstore_1_marijuana-dispensary-medical-cannabis-laws-against-marijuana-distribution?_s=PM:US
> 
> its coming  and its what we NEED.


Lol. If I walked into that store, I'd go bankrupt.

I also found _*this*_ about Miracle Grow

Yes it's what we need! And the more industries that cater to our needs, they more support there will be for legalization.


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## puffenuff (Sep 30, 2011)

I just harvested my led grow again. It's fire and I got a lot of it. Good thing I didn't stay away from leds because I love them.


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## Clonex (Sep 30, 2011)

so lets see some pics ?


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## puffenuff (Sep 30, 2011)

Clonex said:


> so lets see some pics ?


Maybe later. I'm feeling lazy and kind of don't want to.


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## Clonex (Sep 30, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> Maybe later. I'm feeling lazy and kind of don't want to.


well , talk is cheap in that case - peace !


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## puffenuff (Sep 30, 2011)

Damn, a little impatient arent we? I work on my own time son. I'll post pics when I'm good and ready, just not in the mood at the moment. Talk is cheap, shit, only if it's cheap talk to begin with.


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## DinafemHashPlant (Sep 30, 2011)

Clonex said:


> well , talk is cheap in that case - peace !


Look at PUFFs journals...


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## grokillaz (Sep 30, 2011)

Tell this to my super lemon haze plant that has been growing like wild hemp under LEDs .


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## Corbat420 (Sep 30, 2011)

DinafemHashPlant said:


> Look at PUFFs journals dip-shit...


it would be good if you would post a Link to such things. instead of just hurling insults.

generaly when you insunt someone on the forums you want to fill the gap for there incompetence...... 

Link: https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/443986-snow-dream-coco-led-closet-4.html Post#61 has some good shots of bud growth close to harvest. it looks decent, 95% Marketable i would say.

using these lights you COULD get 100% marketable buds if you had a little more light, and trimmed off a larger portion of the undergrowth..... but it might come at a cost of Weight > Time. and thats ALOT of lights for 2-3? plants..... a comertial grow my size would need to use 3,300 Watts, compaired to the 2,000 Watts of HID i currently use..... it actually uses MORE power then my HID's at the larger scale.... and my two 4x8 rooms are NOTHING compared to Collective Growers 20,000 Watt room.

@Puffenuff how many days of veg? how many days of flowering? whats the "recommended" flowering time?


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## Clonex (Sep 30, 2011)

DinafemHashPlant said:


> Look at PUFFs journals dip-shit...


Talk without pictures = talk is cheap - it was no insult - please refrain from calling me a dip shit - i've no-doubt you were beating your chest whilst you typed that remark making Tarzan noises, his grow size is in no way comparable to what has been the main discussion of this thread , its not my issue if ppl dont read the bulk of the thread , i know its tough with ppl like you ranting away , but please , do try and make a effort!!


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## Clonex (Sep 30, 2011)

View attachment 1814083 .....................................................


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## puffenuff (Sep 30, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> it would be good if you would post a Link to such things. instead of just hurling insults.
> 
> generaly when you insunt someone on the forums you want to fill the gap for there incompetence......
> 
> ...


Thanks for throwing up the link to my old ladies. Decent is an understatement, especially for a 95% rating. The quality of it really turned out to be some killer stuff. I don't know why you keep talking about marketable because that's not my goal. I grow for personal only. I show people and they all want some, so, yes, it is very marketable. I haven't had one person say it wasn't good.

I didn't trim off any undergrowth, so, as you can see from my pics in the journal, penetration was not an issue: the smallest nugs still were solid. 

I agree that I could have gotten better results. And when I'm running the new 200w diamond series light for an entire grow (I only had it this time for the final two weeks) I expect to achieve that goal of mine. But in my book, a quarter pound off 180 watts has to be respected, does it not in yours?

If you have the right setup, you can achieve similar results to hid with a fraction of the wattage and in a smaller grow space. Just my opinion and I don't expect you to believe it either.

I vegged for 10 days after buying clones from the dispensary so I have no idea how big they were or how long they had been there. You can see from my journal that I measured them the day I got them up until the day I put them into flowering to see how well the lights do for vegging. They told me 8 weeks flowering time, but I let them go about 8.5 - 9 weeks, including the first day of switch and not counting flushing, because it's all personal preference when to cut them.


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## puffenuff (Sep 30, 2011)

You're welcome. And I'm still trimming.


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## theexpress (Sep 30, 2011)

how dense are the led grown buds? also how much heat did your 200 watt led light put out? no ventiliation needed? just maybe a fan>?


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## Corbat420 (Sep 30, 2011)

> *I don't know why you keep talking about marketable because that's not my goal.*


Im talking about Marketable because that is what this thread is about. we are talking about whether LED's can compete with HID's. to do that they have to be able to to be better than HID at commercial growing.

Me and Collective Gardener are commercial growers, he sells to a community of patients and i sell to mostly recreational users.....



> *If you have the right setup, you can achieve similar results to hid with a fraction of the wattage and in a smaller grow space. Just my opinion and I don't expect you to believe it either.*


For personal set-ups this may be nice. but i use marijuana growing to augment my income. i grow on the average 48 plants for my own selling / Smoking supply, with another house set up to do a larger operation of 100+ flowering Plants.... i DO Believe you that for up to 5 plants LED's can be better than HID's, but we are trying to find out if they are any models worth replacing out 1000W Units. 



> *They told me 8 weeks flowering time, but I let them go about 8.5 - 9 weeks, including the first day of switch and not counting flushing, because it's all personal preference when to cut them. *


Flowering starts when the Maristem starts to develop Pistols. Harvest of 50/50 personal preferance.... Peak THC happens at 90% Cloudy and 10% Amber. THC is developed by the Trichome heads during the last stages of flowering and is produced through protecting the plant from UVB light. after 90/10 and its personal Preference, any time before that and its a waste of the Potential.... to long after that and your harvesting Nearly worthless CBN. THC Degrades into CBD degrades into CBN. 
*Edit:* Read about it here: http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/content/inside-trichome



> *a quarter pound off 180 watts has to be respected, does it not in yours?*


Considering it only took 70~ Days VERY Respectable. there was another guy on here that got 1.3 G/ W but it took him 85 days flower and 40+ days Veg!!! you do know what your doing when it comes to your personal supply, im definitely going to say that much.....


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## puffenuff (Sep 30, 2011)

Mine are dense just like any other, I mean, if I didn't tell you this was grown with leds then you wouldn't know the difference. Plus, there are other ways to achieve more density such as supplements and co2. Next time I will be adding a small amount of gravity based on a recommendation from a friend to see if there is a difference and if I had a sealed environment I'd be running co2 undoubtedly. The heat is minimal, maybe 2 degrees if that and the fans inside the panel blow the air upward and out. No ventilation is required nor was any used. All I had was a small 6 in. desk fan.


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## theexpress (Sep 30, 2011)

whats the best but most affordable largest watt led that will grow bud well?


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## puffenuff (Sep 30, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> Im talking about Marketable because that is what this thread is about. we are talking about whether LED's can compete with HID's. to do that they have to be able to to be better than HID at commercial growing.
> 
> Me and Collective Gardener are commercial growers, he sells to a community of patients and i sell to mostly recreational users.....
> 
> ...


Thank you for the compliments. I didn't know this was a thread about commercial growing and I'm definitely not that. I just assumed it was another "Leds Suck" thread. I appreciate the knowledge you left in response to my comments as it was some sound scientific advice. But again, despite all that science, it is truly nothing more than personal preference at the end of the day.

As far as taking leds commercial, I have seen some pretty high wattage lights being sold, and one journal of a newly released 800w light going and I would say it goes toe-to-toe with 1k watt hps but that's just from me looking at a journal. I believe it to be true though based on my own experiences with leds...the way I look at is that they're just like any other form of lights that can be scaled to size.


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## virulient (Sep 30, 2011)

theexpress said:


> whats the best but most affordable largest watt led that will grow bud well?


You're going to have to pay for a good light. There's no $150 solution for lighting like in HID.


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## Corbat420 (Sep 30, 2011)

> *I just assumed it was another "Leds Suck" thread.*


i forgot what the title of the Thread was haha.

the conversation has just evolved in this one, its become a well of information....


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## virulient (Sep 30, 2011)

I think we can all agree there isn't an LED light that is commercial-grow worthy yet. It's just not there yet imo. I love LED's, but that's because I setup people with their one, personal little grow tent for personal supply. As of now, I don't grow as a business, or source of income, so LED's are exactly what the doctor ordered.


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## zvuv (Oct 1, 2011)

virulient said:


> I think we can all agree there isn't an LED light that is commercial-grow worthy yet. It's just not there yet imo. I love LED's, but that's because I setup people with their one, personal little grow tent for personal supply. As of now, I don't grow as a business, or source of income, so LED's are exactly what the doctor ordered.


My guess is that LED grow lights will become a lot more effective and a lot cheaper, (there are huge economies of scale for solid state devices), over the next few years and will eventually displace HID's as the primary choice. But yeah, they aren't there yet.


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## FootClan (Oct 1, 2011)

virulient said:


> I think he means you have posted a lot in this thread. Maybe if you didn't make a couple of defensive posts on every single page of this thread people would notice you a little less.


maybe if led users didnt attack others so much i wouldnt have to make a defensive post on every page....


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## virulient (Oct 1, 2011)

FootClan said:


> maybe if led users didnt attack others so much i wouldnt have to make a defensive post on every page....


LED users are over-ly aggressive, you're over-ly defensive. Now that we've got that out of the way! How bout these LEDs!


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## collective gardener (Oct 1, 2011)

FootClan said:


> maybe if led users didnt attack others so much i wouldnt have to make a defensive post on every page....


 
Your avatar fits you. Is that guy pulling?


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## FootClan (Oct 2, 2011)

virulient said:


> LED users are over-ly aggressive, you're over-ly defensive. Now that we've got that out of the way! How bout these LEDs!


ok thats i can accecpt its not bias its clear and looks at both sides of the problem....I would agree with your statment


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## FootClan (Oct 2, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Your avatar fits you. Is that guy pulling?


is he pullin?? no hes cutting his arm off and then putting his stump into a homemade chain saw hand.....its from evil dead 2 .....


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## Beefbisquit (Oct 2, 2011)

I'll let you know how my 280w LED grow goes 

Lighthouse hydro and CREE LED's.... fuck yeah!


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## DrFever (Oct 2, 2011)

well i look at it this way i see threads start up LEd grow etc etc but to me it seems there longer grows lol meaning veg times ) then thread disapears.
until i see a LED do this in 18 days i will stay with my HID lighting


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## Clonex (Oct 2, 2011)

DrFever said:


> well i look at it this way i see threads start up LEd grow etc etc but to me it seems there longer grows lol meaning veg times ) then thread disapears.
> until i see a LED do this in 18 days i will stay with my HID lighting


There is nothing in those pictures that led's cant do ?? and im a HID user ? i also thought your last pics on this thread were nice , but irrelavent ? whats your point man lol ?


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## DrFever (Oct 2, 2011)

my point is a LED wont make a plant like that in 18 days like these are only 18 days in veg


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## Clonex (Oct 2, 2011)

DrFever said:


> my point is a LED wont make a plant like that in 18 days like these are only 18 days in veg


Yes they will though.


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## virulient (Oct 2, 2011)

DrFever said:


> my point is a LED wont make a plant like that in 18 days like these are only 18 days in veg


Yea you kinda don't know what you're talking about. Sorry.


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## DrFever (Oct 2, 2011)

lol your telling me from a 3 " clone and in 18 days there 23" tall ) good luck dude your talkin comparing 280 watt LEd to 5000 watts of HId with 1550 ppm of C02 goin in every day huh
lol heres a updat pic day 20


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## virulient (Oct 2, 2011)

How could I compare 280 watts of LEDs to 1550 ppm of CO2. No really. How?

And 280 vs 5000. At least go 1000 vs 5000. or 2500. or anything in the same ballpark. You really aren't helping your case here. You just look like your bragging about your setup. LED's excel at vegging. If you're going to talk about how much better your HID system is over LED, at least talk about flowering......or canopy penetration.....or something that actually makes sense.


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## Clonex (Oct 2, 2011)

you grew 15 " in nearly 3 weeks ??? im not sure but i don't think any awards are available at present 
If you have a HID set up that is vegging your plants say 600w hps or whatever , may i ask you why you have not plants flowering under them , and veg elsewhere , maybe with a decent led panel because unless your just starting out , thats 1 expensive veg room!, the thread topic or at least 1 of them is weather or not LED's are up to being used in a commercial sized grow and if infact enough coverage and penatration is an issue and how led development is coming along , i hope this helps you to join in


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## curly604 (Oct 2, 2011)

DrFever said:


> lol your telling me from a 3 " clone and in 18 days there 23" tall ) good luck dude your talkin comparing 280 watt LEd to 5000 watts of HId with 1550 ppm of C02 goin in every day huh
> lol heres a updat pic day 20


why dont you think about putting hps and led side by side watt for watt? why does hps get the advantage , even at same watt led will run much cooler and will probly not need an a/c unit and watt for watt good leds will match or beat hps in quantity and quality , just gotta do the research to find the right leds.


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## collective gardener (Oct 3, 2011)

curly604 said:


> why dont you think about putting hps and led side by side watt for watt? why does hps get the advantage , even at same watt led will run much cooler and will probly not need an a/c unit and watt for watt good leds will match or beat hps in quantity and quality , just gotta do the research to find the right leds.


 
I think watt for watt LED may be able to match HID IF the plants are kept short. This, though, would be where the high cost consideration would come into play for me. I don't think that saving just my cooling costs would justify the high initial costs. The bulb cost is also an issue, but since I started using Digilux's, my yearly bulb cost has been drastically reduced. After 6 months running 12/12 I've lost less than 5% lumens. To offset the high initial purchase price, the LED really needs to save some electricity. I've crunched the numbers, and around 2/3's is the cuttoff point for me at todays prices. In other words, I would need a 650-700watt LED do the same job as a 1000 HID. Also, the penetration issue has to be improved to be usefull in my garden. As a legal med op, I have a limitted plant count. Ideally, no more than 32 plants in every 8x8 tray lit by 4 - 1000 watt HPS's. With that density, my plants need to finish at 36" tall with dense marketable buds down to within 6" of the top of the rockwool block. My HID's give me quite a few 1 gram very dense buds 6" above the rockwool...that's 4.5 feet from the bulb. These plants yield 3 ozs each...all of which are perfect market buds due to carefull pruning at week 2. 

My needs are probably more demanding than most. Because of this, I think LED's are still quite a ways off from being a viable alternative for my grow op. But, it does seem that with recent advances in the technology (much of which is simply higher wattage lights), LED's will be showing up in more and more closet and single tray grows.


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## El Superbeasto (Oct 3, 2011)

There's a lot to learn about LEDs. It is not as simple as HPS, bulb plus socket, plus ballast, and reflector.... I'm sure you know this, LEDs run on multiple smaller diodes. Some 120 degree angles lenses, some 90 degree angles lenses, some 60 and 45 degree angles lenses. Then some 1 watt, some 2 watt, some 3 watt. And some even 5 watt... Whatever...

The higher the watt individual diode, the better the penetration. And more importantly, the narrower the lens angle of each diode, the better the penetration. 60 degree penetrates really well (that's what she said). Anything more, you're just spreading your light out too much. It's like trying to spread an HPS out too much. Like 400 watt HPS for a 12 x 12 room. You wont get results...

Anyway, there's a lot of shady LED companies out there. Hydrogrow LED.... Cammie MnKenzie, their owner? Used to be Cameron Scott Wieldraayer, a race car parts salesman before the sex change, (s)he did this because (s)he was dodging the law and those he ripped off. "Mike " from Grow Led Hydro, is also known as Irishboy, a "3rd party" grower doing "grow journals" for "Mike". Promoting his own products... Then there is the Chinese knockoffs... And the insane claims, 90 watts equal 400 watts HID. My fatass it equals that much...

Long story short, I am an HPS user, as well LED. I have dealt with the LED lies, I have spent lots of money on many LED false promises. And have dealt with less than acceptable yields with them... Currently, I am running 3 different LEDs and 1 HPS (400 watt). 2 of the 3 LEDs perform slightly better than CFLs (HTG and Blackstar), and the 3rd, not sure the name brand, I got it used, watt for watt, it performs better than my 400 watt HPS. For larger grows, I cannot see why multiple panels of the same light cannot be possible to cover a larger area. I use 3 to cover a good portion of my grow area. The same can be applied for even bigger areas.

I do agree though, LEDs are expensive. And it is hard to find a good one. Unlike HPS. How long does it take to find a good HPS setup for the un-knowledged? Fast. How long does it take to find a good LED? I speak from experience, a long fucking time. I spent a lot of money, wasted a lot of time, but kept looking, and found good LEDs, though expensive, they perform well.

This is the way I see it: If you are able to manage the heat, HPS is a great option. I've used 400s and 600s, I was happy with them. LED is good if you can not deal with large amounts of heat, but will cost more up front. A lot more. I enjoy my LEDs, they are great in the summer time, it is hot where I live... I like HPS in the winter and cooler months out of the year.

I also agree, LEDs do better with shorter plants than taller plants, but also, each lighting method calls for different growing situations... There are many different growing styles, match your growing style up with your lighting method, and do it right, you'll get the most out of what you're doing. 

I'm bored of LED vs. HPS forum arguments, I use both lights, and like both lights. I have stated my opinion of them, and at this time in my life, I choose to use both LED, and HPS in my garden. I get practical results with both. 



collective gardener said:


> I think watt for watt LED may be able to match HID if the plants are kept short. This, though, would be where the high cost consideration would come into play for me. I don't think that saving just my cooling costs would justify the high initial costs. The bulb cost is also an issue, but since I started using Digilux's, my yearly bulb cost has been drastically reduced. After 6 months running 12/12 I've lost less than 5% lumens. To offset the high initial purchase price, the LED really needs to save some electricity. I've crunched the numbers, and around 2/3's is the cuttoff point for me at todays prices. In other words, I would need a 650-700watt LED do the same job as a 1000 HID. Also, the penetration issue has to be improved to be usefull in my garden. As a legal med op, I have a limitted plant count. Ideally, no more than 32 plants in every 8x8 tray lit by 4 - 1000 watt HPS's. With that density, my plants need to finish at 36" tall with dense marketable buds down to within 6" of the top of the rockwool block. My HID's give me quite a few 1 gram very dense buds 6" above the rockwool...that's 4.5 feet from the bulb. These plants yield 3 ozs each...all of which are perfect market buds due to carefull pruning at week 2.
> 
> My needs are probably more demanding than most. Because of this, I think LED's are still quite a ways off from being a viable alternative for my grow op. But, it does seem that with recent advances in the technology (much of which is simply higher wattage lights), LED's will be showing up in more and more closet and single tray grows.


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## collective gardener (Oct 3, 2011)

El Superbeasto said:


> There's a lot to learn about LEDs. It is not as simple as HPS, bulb plus socket, plus ballast, and reflector.... I'm sure you know this, LEDs run on multiple smaller diodes. Some 120 degree angles lenses, some 90 degree angles lenses, some 60 and 45 degree angles lenses. Then some 1 watt, some 2 watt, some 3 watt. And some even 5 watt... Whatever...
> 
> The higher the watt individual diode, the better the penetration. And more importantly, the narrower the lens angle of each diode, the better the penetration. 60 degree penetrates really well (that's what she said). Anything more, you're just spreading your light out too much. It's like trying to spread an HPS out too much. Like 400 watt HPS for a 12 x 12 room. You wont get results...
> 
> ...


Good post. I am aware that several LED's are available that can compete with 400 watt HPS's. The real test, though, is the 600 watt HPS equavalant...and then, of course, the 1000. The 400 watt HPS just doesn't quite have enough lumens to pump out piles of great buds. When they finally rolled out the 600 watt HID grow light, I was thrilled. The 600 seems a fine balance between brute force, and managability of heat. I believe that all LED makers should strive to develope lights that can perform on the same level as the 600 watt HPS. While I personally grow with 1000's, most of my commercial growing friends grow with 600's. If an LED was available that TRULY performed like a 600 watt HPS is all aspects, we would start seeing them in commercial grows. These guys are NOT hurting for cash. A $40,000 capitol investment in the grow room would not be out of the question for any of my group...so long as it made sense.


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## Josh3235 (Oct 3, 2011)

See, you have 8 LED panels. There is your mistake right there most likely. you got a shitty brand!!! Its your fault, just gotta find the right brand of LED. I love my 240w blackstar. It works wonderful for the money that I payed for.


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## puffenuff (Oct 3, 2011)

All this back and forth talk about leds and how they're not ready for commercial growing is ridiculous. The guys saying it's not there yet aren't even willing to try leds over ONE of their trays to see how it works firsthand. Instead, they will wait until they see others doing full blown commercial setups. That's not in the spirit of innovation at all. That's a "i'm scared to try new things" attitude. You guys can say, "leds are only good for closet grows" and that's bullshit because all you have to do is try it over one tray first, then if you like the results, then you can worry about the rest of your op. What's so hard about figuring out how to scale someone's small grow as an example into a large grow? This isn't rocket science yet everyone wants to make it more complicated than what it really is. Just my rant for the day, JUST TRY IT.


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## Clonex (Oct 3, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> All this back and forth talk about leds and how they're not ready for commercial growing is ridiculous. The guys saying it's not there yet aren't even willing to try leds over ONE of their trays to see how it works firsthand. Instead, they will wait until they see others doing full blown commercial setups. That's not in the spirit of innovation at all. That's a "i'm scared to try new things" attitude. You guys can say, "leds are only good for closet grows" and that's bullshit because all you have to do is try it over one tray first, then if you like the results, then you can worry about the rest of your op. What's so hard about figuring out how to scale someone's small grow as an example into a large grow? This isn't rocket science yet everyone wants to make it more complicated than what it really is. Just my rant for the day, JUST TRY IT.


Umm who's ranting now ? i run 4x600w hps , there are not four panels out there that offer the same coverage i currently get, full stop my friend, this is factual not a rant , if you know of any , feel free to link us.


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## tokenbrownguy (Oct 3, 2011)

I haven't read all 37 pages of this thread, but does anyone know a good led light for a personal grow? Right now, I have a 250 hps, doing a good job, but for the quality buds I'm looking for I need more lights. Yet, I need to keep heat and electricity use down...the price for an led to supplement my grow is not an issue...any input? Sorry if I hijacked, but it seems that was done a while ago...thanks ahead of time!


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## puffenuff (Oct 3, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Umm who's ranting now ? i run 4x600w hps , there are not four panels out there that offer the same coverage i currently get, full stop my friend, this is factual not a rant , if you know of any , feel free to link us.


I admitted to ranting! Haha, and there ARE lights out that will perform as well as a 600w hps. look at advancedledlights.com or blackdogled.com. You should find some there that will replace your lights. the question is, are you willing to try them without seeing someone else do it first?


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## Clonex (Oct 3, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> I admitted to ranting! Haha, and there ARE lights out that will perform as well as a 600w hps. look at advancedledlights.com or blackdogled.com. You should find some there that will replace your lights. the question is, are you willing to try them without seeing someone else do it first?


Read the whole thread , i have tried them , or else i would be typing for the sake of it , what a waste of time that would be , my panels were 1100£ each and the penatration or coverage were not there , and why im on it , nor were the bud density anywhere near as good, doh! put your chest away


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## puffenuff (Oct 3, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Read the whole thread , i have tried them , or else i would be typing for the sake of it , what a waste of time that would be , my panels were 1100£ each and the penatration or coverage were not there , and why im on it , nor were the bud density anywhere near as good, doh! put your chest away


Price of a panel is meaningless. What year, what specs? You need to calm down buddy because I havent even started beating my chest (no reason to anyway) and fuck off with your smiley faces trying to be cute.


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## Clonex (Oct 3, 2011)

!1 thing the LED's did do , was make for pretty pictures , some of the light reflections were amazing , but , they didnt pay the bills


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## Clonex (Oct 3, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> Price of a panel is meaningless. What year, what specs? You need to calm down buddy because I havent even started beating my chest (no reason to anyway) and fuck off with your smiley faces trying to be cute.


Trying to be cute lol i smile because im always happy , wtf is wrong with you!!

http://www.smartlightingshop.com/600w-grow-light/600-watt-led-grow-light.html

Before telling me to F*** oFF use your eyes and read the thread .
^^^^^ <---- (commonly known as "beating your chest")
Define "meaningless"? ranting on a thread you have not read..... <----cute huh


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## puffenuff (Oct 3, 2011)

Telling me to put my chest away followed by a smiley face shows a sense of smugness hence the fuck off with that shit. Thanks for the link, but if you think that light is even remotely close to the lights I linked to you, then youre incredibly misinformed.


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## puffenuff (Oct 3, 2011)

tokenbrownguy said:


> I haven't read all 37 pages of this thread, but does anyone know a good led light for a personal grow? Right now, I have a 250 hps, doing a good job, but for the quality buds I'm looking for I need more lights. Yet, I need to keep heat and electricity use down...the price for an led to supplement my grow is not an issue...any input? Sorry if I hijacked, but it seems that was done a while ago...thanks ahead of time!


What size space and how many plants for your personal space? I can suggest some given more info.


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## Clonex (Oct 3, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> Telling me to put my chest away followed by a smiley face shows a sense of smugness hence the fuck off with that shit. Thanks for the link, but if you think that light is even remotely close to the lights I linked to you, then youre incredibly misinformed.


That was 3 years ago and i have trialed 2x 2011 models , and yes i am smug so ?


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## loved hps love led more (Oct 3, 2011)

El Superbeasto said:


> There's a lot to learn about LEDs. It is not as simple as HPS, bulb plus socket, plus ballast, and reflector.... I'm sure you know this, LEDs run on multiple smaller diodes. Some 120 degree angles lenses, some 90 degree angles lenses, some 60 and 45 degree angles lenses. Then some 1 watt, some 2 watt, some 3 watt. And some even 5 watt... Whatever...
> 
> The higher the watt individual diode, the better the penetration. And more importantly, the narrower the lens angle of each diode, the better the penetration. 60 degree penetrates really well (that's what she said). Anything more, you're just spreading your light out too much. It's like trying to spread an HPS out too much. Like 400 watt HPS for a 12 x 12 room. You wont get results...
> 
> ...


......whoa whoa whoa , did everyone else miss this , mike from growledhydro is irish boy!?!?!? NOOO FUCKIN WAY ..... really? if so that is fucked up and he is tricking alot of people inot buying his shit . anyone care to elaborate?


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## tokenbrownguy (Oct 3, 2011)

So any recommendations on the led question...?


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## tokenbrownguy (Oct 3, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> What size space and how many plants for your personal space? I can suggest some given more info.


OK thanks...I've got one plant, I can fit 2 5gall pots under the light, in a closet,with about 18 sq ft


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## puffenuff (Oct 3, 2011)

tokenbrownguy said:


> OK thanks...I've got one plant, I can fit 2 5gall pots under the light, in a closet,with about 18 sq ft


I'll private message you some lights I would use for a setup like yours


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## curly604 (Oct 3, 2011)

hey so i dont know when this thread was started but leds are gonna be huge coming up soon here in my opinion. many places in the world have already banned incandescent bulbs.... how long till they ban hps for the same reasons. this is what i grew under my 120w chineese 2 specrum led ( red and blue) running at about 60-80 true watts and dreid i pulled 2 oz's of some of the nicest stuff ive seen around , im very happy with this out come as this was my first led and first hydro run with alot of fuck ups so next time and with my new light i will be pumping out some very nice numbers .[video=youtube;HjZ7kZxdQ2E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZ7kZxdQ2E[/video]


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## MurshDawg (Oct 3, 2011)

It seems the consensus is "You get what you pay for" and I can agree with that. I have watched LEDs advance from little panel lights barely used in filming to 3 wat per diode efficient light producing devices. I think there is a lot of promise for LEDs but little in means of current advancements. The biggest Thing I have heard of is the incorporation with multi spectrum coloring. They'll use three or four different reds and blues to meet up with PAR. The higher end products work nice (from what I hear) but I don't have a couple grand to throw away on one lighting solution. That's why I went with Multispectrum lighting with T5s. I had an epiphany and my research led me to some folks that came to the same conclusions. Please feel free to check out* LED without LEDs* thread. You'll at least find it informative. [video=youtube;_0e9uaQukus]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0e9uaQukus[/video]


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## Clonex (Oct 3, 2011)

They still are not any use in a large scale commercial operation , none of the 2 above posts are anything new , future ? ...maybe, but not now.


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## virulient (Oct 3, 2011)

I feel like we all came to the same conclusion. Until we get more watts, per diode, LED's simply won't provide the depth of coverage (aka penetration) for commercial style grows. So we all agreed on that and this thread died for a few days....then someone comes along and says "I THINK MY LEDS OUT PERFORM A 600W HPS, THEYRE AWESOME-O" and the thread starts allllll over again....

In conclusion : LED's are very effective when put in the proper environment. Any grow utilizing tall plant that need to bud all the way down to the rockwool almost...simply is NOT the environment for a panel utilizing 3w diode. Regardless of the lens angle.

Now everyone agree with me and we will all be content until next week. When someone says 
LED>HPS or HPS>LED again. Then we can start from the beginning......again.


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## Samwell Seed Well (Oct 3, 2011)

i agree leds have their place 

computer box grows . . . .. .. .


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## Clonex (Oct 3, 2011)

virulient said:


> I feel like we all came to the same conclusion. Until we get more watts, per diode, LED's simply won't provide the depth of coverage (aka penetration) for commercial style grows. So we all agreed on that and this thread died for a few days....then someone comes along and says "I THINK MY LEDS OUT PERFORM A 600W HPS, THEYRE AWESOME-O" and the thread starts allllll over again....
> 
> In conclusion : LED's are very effective when put in the proper environment. Any grow utilizing tall plant that need to bud all the way down to the rockwool almost simply is NOT the environment for a panel utilizing 3w diode. Regardless of the lens angle.
> 
> ...


lol - yup.


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## tokenbrownguy (Oct 3, 2011)

Would led be good for supplemental? If so what wattage? For a small personal grow?


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## Samwell Seed Well (Oct 3, 2011)

i know i want supplemental light that only covers a 3 x 3 area at most and cost 1000 dolllars or the cheaper one that cover a 2 x2 or 1x1 , get a proper spectrum bulb

if you want new technology LOOK INTO PLASMA LIGHTNING( actaully efficient ligthing with penetration but very new)


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## virulient (Oct 3, 2011)

tokenbrownguy said:


> Would led be good for supplemental? If so what wattage? For a small personal grow?


For a small, personal grow, you could use LED's to supplement OR be the main source of lighting (as long as you keep your plants semi-short). I recommend AdvancedLED, GrowLEDHydro, Blackstar, Stealthgrow, Kessil, and ProGrow. If I left a few brands off, it's not because they are bad, but the ones I listed are proven to work when given the proper chance. For supplemental lighting only, I would say Blackstar/Kessil is your best bet.


Also - Just because it says LED doesn't mean its $1000. That doesn't mean go out and get a $20 panel off eBay, but you can get the small products of the companies I just listed for a couple hundred at most. If you're only trying to supplement your HID system with LED lights to obtain a more full spectrum, there's no reason to spend $1000+. You can get a Kessil or 240w Blackstar for 200 at the most.


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## puffenuff (Oct 3, 2011)

Until there are dozens of online journals being touted as "commercial grows" these guys wont be impressed. I've said it again and again, just because you haven't seen any doesn't mean they don't exist. Do you honestly think every grow is available to see? Have you ever used a top of the line led for more than one cycle? Have you ever thought that people can grow good bud with them so it must be possible to grow more good bud using more lights? Nobody has addressed my main point: why cant you scale up if you can conede to leds being good for closet grows? You have to alter your grow techniques and (gasp) even yourroom if you want to achieve good results with leds. You cant just swap out lights and expect the same results. explain to me why you cant scale up a small ledgrow into a large.


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## virulient (Oct 3, 2011)

I'll answer your main point! More LED light, 50 800w diamond series panels aren't going to penetrate any better than a panel with only 1 3w diode from a diamond series. The only thing you accomplish is more 3w diodes, which improves coverage area. Since a 3w diode is a 3w diode is a 3w diode, you still have the penetration issue. No one is questions the fact the LED light work for personal grow, or even with large scale SoG grows. But since most commercial grows nowadays are growing 40"+ plants, were going to need 6w diode or larger......which we WILL get......in the future. So it stands that, for now, LED's are great for certain circumstances, but simply aren't powerful enough, per diode, to grow monsters. I feel like I've explained this at least 10 times in this post. I am a HUUUGE LED advocate. I love these lights, and I think they're doing some amazing things. But I wouldn't take down 1 of collective gardeners' 1000w HID's and replace it with an LED light WITHOUT changing grow method. It simply would not work, as long as they're 3w diodes. I don't care if you have a 3w panel or a 3000w panel, 3w diode aren't enough.


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## Samwell Seed Well (Oct 3, 2011)

results impress your right, and i dont mind and neither do the three people with chronic ailments that i grow for, i use naturrally derived nutes ina organic inert enviroment and i producs enough cheaply between $1.05 and $1.30 a gram at 2400 a pound rates so you tell me whats better personal or a lot to share

when LEDs or Plasma Lighing can do that ill be your biggest advocate


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## virulient (Oct 3, 2011)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> results impress your right, and i dont mind and neither do the three people with chronic ailments that i grow for, i use naturrally derived nutes ina organic inert enviroment and i producs enough cheaply between $1.05 and $1.30 a gram at 2400 a pound rates so you tell me whats better personal or a lot to share
> 
> when LEDs or Plasma Lighing can do that ill be your biggest advocate


Because whats best for you is obviously best for everyone else. duh! (sarcasm)


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## Clonex (Oct 3, 2011)

A large scale set up of dwarf plants in a 2foot high room , when i move into this house i'm buying me some led's.............






could not resist , apologies in advance.


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## puffenuff (Oct 3, 2011)

virulient said:


> I'll answer your main point! More LED light, 50 800w diamond series panels aren't going to penetrate any better than a panel with only 1 3w diode from a diamond series. The only thing you accomplish is more 3w diodes, which improves coverage area. Since a 3w diode is a 3w diode is a 3w diode, you still have the penetration issue. No one is questions the fact the LED light work for personal grow, or even with large scale SoG grows. But since most commercial grows nowadays are growing 40"+ plants, were going to need 6w diode or larger......which we WILL get......in the future. So it stands that, for now, LED's are great for certain circumstances, but simply aren't powerful enough, per diode, to grow monsters. I feel like I've explained this at least 10 times in this post. I am a HUUUGE LED advocate. I love these lights, and I think they're doing some amazing things. But I wouldn't take down 1 of collective gardeners' 1000w HID's and replace it with an LED light WITHOUT changing grow method. It simply would not work, as long as they're 3w diodes. I don't care if you have a 3w panel or a 3000w panel, 3w diode aren't enough.


Thanks for trying to answer my point, but I don't believe you changed my stance on this issue. You're right however in stating that adding more panels doesn't increase the penetration. But that's where altering your grow techniques come into place, just like I pointed out; there is just as much potential in a well scrogged op than one where the plants grow tall vertically without any influences. I don't even feel penetration is an issue with 3w lights, and in fact, the diamond series is no ordinary 3w light either and are more intense than the standard 3w. There are more than 1 type of 3w leds out there just to be clear, and the from my experiences, the best ones are high output, which not all companies use. In addition, diamonds actually have unique lenses over each diode adding to the output. I just harvest 5 foot tall plants...penetration was never an issue as I got solid nugs even at the lowest branch, so 40 inch plants are no problem. Of course 5 and 6w diodes will give better penetration than 3w...no argument there, but to say 3w aren't good enough just because you know there is something better down the line doesn't make sense. I honestly believe those who say it's not possible aren't willing to put forth a real effort to make it work.


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## Samwell Seed Well (Oct 3, 2011)

i should also mention my patients dont pay for a thing, another perk of quality quantity, but keep on working because every new thing learned with LED's will probably be used in upcoming technologies,


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## virulient (Oct 3, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> Thanks for trying to answer my point, but I don't believe you changed my stance on this issue. You're right however in stating that adding more panels doesn't increase the penetration. But that's where altering your grow techniques come into place, just like I pointed out; there is just as much potential in a well scrogged op than one where the plants grow tall vertically without any influences. I don't even feel penetration is an issue with 3w lights, and in fact, the diamond series is no ordinary 3w light either and are more intense than the standard 3w. There are more than 1 type of 3w leds out there just to be clear, and the from my experiences, the best ones are high output, which not all companies use. In addition, diamonds actually have unique lenses over each diode adding to the output. I just harvest 5 foot tall plants...penetration was never an issue as I got solid nugs even at the lowest branch, so 40 inch plants are no problem. Of course 5 and 6w diodes will give better penetration than 3w...no argument there, but to say 3w aren't good enough just because you know there is something better down the line doesn't make sense. I honestly believe those who say it's not possible aren't willing to put forth a real effort to make it work.


You can "believe" anything you want lol. If SCRoG was that much better than growing monsters, then I'm sure people like collective gardener would be using the SCRoG or SoG method. I do NOT grow commercially, but have seen people attempt to grow monsters with LED's. It's not pretty. 

I like the diamond series just as much as the next guy, but MOST high-end panels have the "lenses" and use the same, or extremely comparable brand, of diode. You aren't going to find many "low output" LED's in quality panels. Many of these features are feature in every main brand, and were listed as advertising. I wouldn't say a Mercedes is better than a Ford because it has A/C. Obviously they both have A/C, and obviously all the main brands (especially for penetration), it would be BY FAR the most popular LED light on the market. It's not, it's a standard, high quality, LED panel. While the diamond series may be the new model, with some new features, nothing is significant enough to say it penetrates THAT much better than a GLH or ProGrow or Kessil, etc... 

With what I've seen between journals and real world experience, I wouldn't trust a panel, at the proper height from the canopy, to go more than 25-30" below said canopy. Until we can push more wattage per diode, there are simply no more "tweaks" like lens angle, individual reflectors, high output 3w's. there's nothing more they can do with 3w per diode. This is from real experiences, not from reading a grow journal, or hear-say. I'm not "too lazy" to try new shit. I HAVE tried it, and these are the results. Like it or not. 


Conclusion - See my last million posts that all say the same thing.


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## virulient (Oct 3, 2011)

Clonex said:


> A large scale set up of dwarf plants in a 2foot high room , when i move into this house i'm buying me some led's.............
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know you're being sarcastic, joking around, but are you really suggesting the SoG method is "laugh-able"? I find it to actually be highly effective.


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## puffenuff (Oct 3, 2011)

virulient said:


> You can "believe" anything you want lol. If SCRoG was that much better than growing monsters, then I'm sure people like collective gardener would be using the SCRoG or SoG method. I do NOT grow commercially, but have seen people attempt to grow monsters with LED's. It's not pretty.
> 
> I like the diamond series just as much as the next guy, but MOST high-end panels have the "lenses" and use the same, or extremely comparable brand, of diode. You aren't going to find many "low output" LED's in quality panels. Many of these features are feature in every main brand, and were listed as advertising. I wouldn't say a Mercedes is better than a Ford because it has A/C. Obviously they both have A/C, and obviously all the main brands (especially for penetration), it would be BY FAR the most popular LED light on the market. It's not, it's a standard, high quality, LED panel. While the diamond series may be the new model, with some new features, nothing is significant enough to say it penetrates THAT much better than a GLH or ProGrow or Kessil, etc...
> 
> ...


Yes, I can believe what I want because I draw my own conclusions based on personal experience and not by trusting the word of some little internet prick who thinks he knows everything. I'm telling you I disagree and providing firsthand experiences and you can't even acknowledge my own experiences in your response and only care about what you have (not) accomplished? You can laugh at what I think all you want, it doesn't mean shit to me, and you can try to pick apart only pieces of what I say, an excellent strategy for debate.

Actually, let me have a crack at that, except I'm going to address everything:

*If SCRoG was that much better than growing monsters, then I'm sure people like collective gardener would be using the SCRoG or SoG method.*
Who the are those guys? Why do I care what they do? I don't know and I don't care one bit. People, myself included, have grown with both methods and achieved nearly identical results if not better in vice-versa cases. If penetration, for some reason, is your concern with leds, then by all mean adapt your growing technique to suit that and scrog.

*I do NOT grow commercially, but have seen people attempt to grow monsters with LED's. It's not pretty.*
I don't grow commercially either, but I _can_ see the logic in getting excellent results in a 2x3 space and doing the same thing but at twice the size. I don't know why that is so hard for you guys to grasp. I'm sorry you've only seen failures. Everything I do, I do it pretty but that's just my style, and if it isn't pretty the first time, I don't hang up my hat and and call it a failure. I make adjustments and make things prettier.

*I like the diamond series just as much as the next guy*
Glad to hear that you like them too. I love mine. I'd tell you that I'm sure you'd like it if you tried it but that would just be a lie. We both know you won't like it no matter what. You've made up your mind already.

*MOST high-end panels have the "lenses" and use the same, or extremely comparable brand, of diode.*
Yes, a lot of the quality panels use similar parts, but they don't have the added diamond lense. I'm not up-to-speed on what all they do, but I know they weren't on my first 3w panel by the same company and I know they perform a lot better. There are bigger diodes and special "diamond" lenses around each one that I imagine intensifies each one thus making it more powerful than my other panel.

*You aren't going to find many "low output" LED's in quality panels.*
True. If you do, then you're not looking at quality panels. I mentioned that because not everyone reading this thread may have been aware there are different kinds of leds.

*Many of these features are feature in every main brand, and were listed as advertising.*
Not really. There's still enough differences in products out there to make one feature stand out. And, there's still a lot of bad information on some of the websites of the main brands. But some are definitely worse than others.

*I wouldn't say a Mercedes is better than a Ford because it has A/C. Obviously they both have A/C.*
I'm glad you wouldn't say that because that's just nonsense and they _should_ both have A/C. I wouldn't make that claim either. But I wasn't talking about general features of a panel like A/C is to a car. I was talking about the "unique" features. Pretty sure I even used that descriptive word in my post.

*it would be BY FAR the most popular LED light on the market. It's not, it's a standard, high quality, LED panel. While the diamond series may be the new model, with some new features, nothing is significant enough to say it penetrates THAT much better than a GLH or ProGrow or Kessil, etc... *
I never claimed it to be the most popular light or even a standard but I know it's a quality light because I use them. I'm telling you from firsthand experience, everything about it is better than my 3w including penetration. That's significant enough for me. I can tell you that when I first joined RIU nobody was even talking about advancedled, but now there's grows with them on most of the popular grow forums. That still doesn't mean they are better than any of the other lights you mentioned as I consider all of those to be quality lights as well although they are not all the same either and that's ok.

*With what I've seen between journals and real world experience, I wouldn't trust a panel, at the proper height from the canopy, to go more than 25-30" below said canopy.*
That's your belief, just like I have mine; however, I'm not laughing at yours: that's one of the differences between me and you. I trust my lights to penetrate all the way through the foliage to the base of the stalk between 48-60" but I would caution that the height of the light...just like with all types of lights...plays a role not only on penetration buy also on intensity. Again, that's why I suggested scrogging if someone is that worried.

*Until we can push more wattage per diode, there are simply no more "tweaks" like lens angle, individual reflectors, high output 3w's. there's nothing more they can do with 3w per diode. This is from real experiences, not from reading a grow journal, or hear-say. I'm not "too lazy" to try new shit. I HAVE tried it, and these are the results.*
You might be right. You never know. You seem to be the kind of person that has to see it to believe it. I'm the opposite: I believe anything is possible until proven otherwise.

Check this one out:
*With what I've seen between journals and real world experience,* I wouldn't trust a panel, at the proper height from the canopy, to go more than 25-30" below said canopy. Until we can push more wattage per diode, there are simply no more "tweaks" like lens angle, individual reflectors, high output 3w's. there's nothing more they can do with 3w per diode. *This is from real experiences, not from reading a grow journal, or hear-say*
Credibility lost (not that I think you have any to begin with). You really shouldn't contradict yourself.

*I HAVE tried it, and these are the results. Like it or not.*
Those are your results. Not mine. Not everyone else's. Your's and the one's you saw fail. I do not like your results as I imagine you don't either. I experience great results and I'm still absolutely, positively confident that I can continue improving upon my results with every new cycle. Growing is a learning experience and those who are truly successful at it never stop learning, are encouraged by challenges, and enjoy trying out new strategies. 

*Conclusion - See my last million posts that all say the same thing.*
I'll pass. Especially if you're repeating yourself throughout each one. That would drive me nuts.

That's all you're going to hear from me. I'm going to bow out gracefully now. Thanks for playing. See you next time.


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## virulient (Oct 3, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> Yes, I can believe what I want because I draw my own conclusions based on personal experience and not by trusting the word of some little internet prick who thinks he knows everything.


I didn't read past this. I told you I was speaking on real world experience. If you can't comprehend basic sentences, AND not understand the simple logic behind my point, then you're simply not worth my time. Cute book though, I hope it was worth it.

I lied - I read the part about diamond series too. I actually own a couple of these panels....and love them. Apparently you missed the part where I said "I'm a huge LED advocate". The fact that you're still talking about 2x3 areas and larger means you can't comprehend what I said. I didn't make 1 sentence saying the drawbacks of LED's are their coverage. I am talking about the penetration. Coverage is easy...just add more diode or widen the lens angle. This is reaaaaally basic shit. If you don't understand then that's fine. Not everyone was born smart.

And now I read the rest......I would HIGHLY recommend hooked on phonics for you. Reading comprehension is NOT your strong suit. You should re-read my post. And this time pay attention. I now see why you are always in an argument with someone. You're just like FootClan!! lofl


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## puffenuff (Oct 3, 2011)

virulient said:


> I didn't read past this. I told you I was speaking on real world experience. If you can't comprehend basic sentences, AND not understand the simple logic behind my point, then you're simply not worth my time. Cute book though, I hope it was worth it.
> 
> I lied - I read the part about diamond series too. I actually own a couple of these panels....and love them. Apparently you missed the part where I said "I'm a huge LED advocate". The fact that you're still talking about 2x3 areas and larger means you can't comprehend what I said. I didn't make 1 sentence saying the drawbacks of LED's are their coverage. I am talking about the penetration. Coverage is easy...just add more diode or widen the lens angle. This is reaaaaally basic shit. If you don't understand then that's fine. Not everyone was born smart.
> 
> And now I read the rest......I would HIGHLY recommend hooked on phonics for you. Reading comprehension is NOT your strong suit. You should re-read my post. And this time pay attention.


Are you fucking kidding me? I just said penetration was not a problem for me.


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## collective gardener (Oct 3, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> Thanks for trying to answer my point, but I don't believe you changed my stance on this issue. You're right however in stating that adding more panels doesn't increase the penetration. But that's where altering your grow techniques come into place, just like I pointed out; there is just as much potential in a well scrogged op than one where the plants grow tall vertically without any influences. I don't even feel penetration is an issue with 3w lights, and in fact, the diamond series is no ordinary 3w light either and are more intense than the standard 3w. There are more than 1 type of 3w leds out there just to be clear, and the from my experiences, the best ones are high output, which not all companies use. In addition, diamonds actually have unique lenses over each diode adding to the output. I just harvest 5 foot tall plants...penetration was never an issue as I got solid nugs even at the lowest branch, so 40 inch plants are no problem. Of course 5 and 6w diodes will give better penetration than 3w...no argument there, but to say 3w aren't good enough just because you know there is something better down the line doesn't make sense. I honestly believe those who say it's not possible aren't willing to put forth a real effort to make it work.


 
Sorry the pic ended up way up there. This is the best pic I currently have showing dense growth down low. I can take some more tomorrow. The reason I don't run out and buy some LED's to try is because to conduct an accurate test, I would have to light up a whole 8x8 tray in my "test". Otherwise, there would be influence from the HPS's lighting the rest of the tray. Currently each 8x8 tray lit by 4 - 1000 watt HPS's is yielding 6 lbs with no CO2 of Pre-98 Bubba Kush...not a particular high yielder. There are 25 plants on this tray. With my current patient count, I can go as high as 32 plants in each tray (we have 3 trays). For this reason, I need plants that yield around 4ozs each of MARKETABLE buds. I have no problem purchasing enough LED to light up one tray IF I had reason to believe that there would be a a good chance of matching my current yield with my current plants count. Before forking out the $5,000+ for my own test, I would like to see better performance from LED's than I am seeing now. Perhaps you could show me some pics of your 5 foot plants, and the big ass dense lower buds. 

Also, why do you come blazing in here with such a combative attitude? We're just discussing lights. I, for one, am looking forward to the day when LED's or inductive lights are an option for growers like myself. For now, there's good reason why every large scale grow you see ANYWHERE is using HID's. Do you really think we just are afraid of trying new things? You think there are a bunch of 20,000 watt LED grows out there, but the growers don't want to show them off? And your statement that we just don't want to put forth the effort to make them work is insane. If I thought I could save Thousands and thousands of $$$ making the current LED's work, I'd be all over it. I'm a money hungry bastard above all else. I'm in the op all day everyday anyway. Myself and the several other commercial growers I deal with discuss this lighting all the time. A few of these guys have tried the latest and greatest LED's, and they all say the same thing. Not quite there yet. 

It's not as easy as just expanding on a little successful home grow, as you have said. We need 100% of our buds to be great. There can be no AA buds. It all must be AAA. Who cares in a personal stash home grow op...it all smokes the same. Then there's the plant count limitations, meaning we need to see X amount per plant. There's also labor considerations. 200 sq ft of perpetual scrog takes much more time to manage than my settup. I also detest having my plants locked into a location, as with a scrog. 

Just don't hack on people for not running out and buying these things. 

Don't forget the picks. I showed you mine...now let's see yours.


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## virulient (Oct 3, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> Are you fucking kidding me? I just said penetration was not a problem for me.
> 
> 
> I don't grow commercially either, but I can see the logic in getting excellent results in a 2x3 space and doing the same thing but at twice the size. I don't know why that is so hard for you guys to grasp. I'm sorry you've only seen failures. Everything I do, I do it pretty but that's just my style, and if it isn't pretty the first time, I don't hang up my hat and and call it a failure. I make adjustments and make things prettier.


Lolzerpops. I thought you and your 2nd grade reading comprehension skills were "bowing out".


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## virulient (Oct 3, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 1818789
> 
> 
> Sorry the pic ended up way up there. This is the best pic I currently have showing dense growth down low. I can take some more tomorrow. The reason I don't run out and buy some LED's to try is because to conduct an accurate test, I would have to light up a whole 8x8 tray in my "test". Otherwise, there would be influence from the HPS's lighting the rest of the tray. Currently each 8x8 tray lit by 4 - 1000 watt HPS's is yielding 6 lbs with no CO2 of Pre-98 Bubba Kush...not a particular high yielder. There are 25 plants on this tray. With my current patient count, I can go as high as 32 plants in each tray (we have 3 trays). For this reason, I need plants that yield around 4ozs each of MARKETABLE buds. I have no problem purchasing enough LED to light up one tray IF I had reason to believe that there would be a a good chance of matching my current yield with my current plants count. Before forking out the $5,000+ for my own test, I would like to see better performance from LED's than I am seeing now. Perhaps you could show me some pics of your 5 foot plants, and the big ass dense lower buds.
> ...


As always, exactly what I was trying to say, but you are 10x better with words than me. Well said CG


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## puffenuff (Oct 3, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 1818789
> 
> 
> Sorry the pic ended up way up there. This is the best pic I currently have showing dense growth down low. I can take some more tomorrow. The reason I don't run out and buy some LED's to try is because to conduct an accurate test, I would have to light up a whole 8x8 tray in my "test". Otherwise, there would be influence from the HPS's lighting the rest of the tray. Currently each 8x8 tray lit by 4 - 1000 watt HPS's is yielding 6 lbs with no CO2 of Pre-98 Bubba Kush...not a particular high yielder. There are 25 plants on this tray. With my current patient count, I can go as high as 32 plants in each tray (we have 3 trays). For this reason, I need plants that yield around 4ozs each of MARKETABLE buds. I have no problem purchasing enough LED to light up one tray IF I had reason to believe that there would be a a good chance of matching my current yield with my current plants count. Before forking out the $5,000+ for my own test, I would like to see better performance from LED's than I am seeing now. Perhaps you could show me some pics of your 5 foot plants, and the big ass dense lower buds.
> ...


See, you expect me to compare 180w to your 4,000...it simply can't be done. Obviously you're going to have more dense undergrowth. I'm done here. You guys can all wait until everyone else says it's ok to grow with leds. Don't be a pioneer.


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## onewize1 (Oct 3, 2011)

this is a nocal pure kush strictly under a 90 w and 2 flourescents dangling. this is nt the harvest pic and allthebuds were dense exept the bottom 1/3 of the plant and i got a little over anounce like35 40 grams..... so i wont say they arent good..... o in addition i treated this plant like shit for got to water a few times and barely gave it nutes prolly 4 times during the whole cycle of advanced nutrients.if u look behind this purekush bush you can see the cabinet that houses the 90 w and two . flouros and nothat bush was grown with a 250w hpswith fuller spectrum.
i wouldnt spend the money on one of these again but i wont say they are shit either. cg is right when it comes to a grow that size with a DEMAND. the only thing it would really be solving for him is a low elecric bill. this plant had plenty of room o grow but i would imagine a sog would work too. if u have the money to experiment do it and share.


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## virulient (Oct 3, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> See, you expect me to compare 180w to your 4,000...it simply can't be done. Obviously you're going to have more dense undergrowth. I'm done here. You guys can all wait until everyone else says it's ok to grow with leds. Don't be a pioneer.


He never said 180w. Give him any LED panel. Give him a gazillion watt LED panel. If it has 3w diodes, it's going to be the same effect, over a larger area. I don't get it....what's so difficult to understand? It's a good thing I didn't become a teacher. I'd be yelling at kids.


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## tokenbrownguy (Oct 3, 2011)

Ummmm...so what's a noob supposed to think about all of this?...not just the led isseus, but the way people present themselves here at riu? I'm not criticizing anyone or what they believe...I'm just saying, as a noob, this back and forth banter can be quite disheartening and confusing...I hope somebody can set the record straight on leds. Peace!


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## virulient (Oct 3, 2011)

tokenbrownguy said:


> Ummmm...so what's a noob supposed to think about all of this?...not just the led isseus, but the way people present themselves here at riu? I'm not criticizing anyone or what they believe...I'm just saying, as a noob, this back and forth banter can be quite disheartening and confusing...I hope somebody can set the record straight on leds. Peace!


What I was trying to get across, before I was attacked, is that LED's are fine for personal grows, micro grows, grow tents, SCRoG, SoG, LED's are great man. Unless you're growing monster sized plants like CG. The back and forth....that's every site. This is one of the most controversial conversations in our industry at the moment. We heat up, we cool down. In the long run, usually, RIU will get you some help and a good, informative, straight answer for any question that has one. Unfortunately, the question "Are LED's awesome-o?" doesn't have a good, informative, straight, and definitive answer. There are many variables, and people feel the need to argue over which variables are valid. 

From what it sounds like you are trying to accomplish, LEDs and HID would both work out great. (If you are still going with a small time grow). And the brands I listed are still proven. Even puff would agree on that.


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## puffenuff (Oct 3, 2011)

virulient said:


> He never said 180w. Give him any LED panel. Give him a gazillion watt LED panel. If it has 3w diodes, it's going to be the same effect, over a larger area. I don't get it....what's so difficult to understand? It's a good thing I didn't become a teacher. I'd be yelling at kids.


I can't resist you viru for some strange reason. I want to stop...but you keep luring me back haha. No hard feelings, hope you honestly read my love letter to you earlier because I think you'll see my reading comprehension is far above the average pothead's (you said second grade, right?). But really, you just kind of ticked me off by laughing at what I posted and basically writing it off. No harm done though, I might have just misconstrued your tone, that's the thing about the written word, you can't understand the subtleties of conversation as well as with the spoken word.

But about the 180w...He showed me a picture of his 4,000w tray and asked to see a pic of my plants, which I used a 180w, so that's why I say that picture won't help him. He needs to see a picture of a tray with about 2.5-3k watts of led to compare effectively. If done properly, the penetration won't be an issue. What's so hard to understand about that?

I get what you're saying about 3w only having so much penetration power...but I'm saying 3w is plenty to get good penetration. If I'm not having an issue...why are others? I must be doing something differently then and I'll keep doing it. If you still don't care that I'm not having penetration issues, there are other ways that you can fix that besides the scrog I mentioned. How about some spotlights pointed upward underneath to get the lower sites more light? That's one of the great things about leds is that they come in different sizes and their casing designs allow for a modular setup. You can angle the lights however you want. I've even considered ditching the reflective surface on the walls and just installing panels up and down the walls. There's so many things you can do to counter the penetration issues everyone is having with them but me. 

Hope there's no bad mojo going forth. Happy growing brother!


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## tokenbrownguy (Oct 3, 2011)

[Ok, thank you for the info. I assumed the combo would be good, but for the amount f heat, price, and perpetual cost of electricity, would i be better suited with a small hos ( another 250, ) or should i make the jump into led? If led, which wattage is preferred for optimal output? Btw, i would never say 'awesome-o' nor would i ask such a question...at least not in dem der, werds.QUOTE=virulient;6397777]What I was trying to get across, before I was attacked, is that LED's are fine for personal grows, micro grows, grow tents, SCRoG, SoG, LED's are great man. Unless you're growing monster sized plants like CG. The back and forth....that's every site. This is one of the most controversial conversations in our industry at the moment. We heat up, we cool down. In the long run, usually, RIU will get you some help and a good, informative, straight answer for any question that has one. Unfortunately, the question "Are LED's awesome-o?" doesn't have a good, informative, straight, and definitive answer. There are many variables, and people feel the need to argue over which variables are valid. 

From what it sounds like you are trying to accomplish, LEDs and HID would both work out great. (If you are still going with a small time grow). And the brands I listed are still proven. Even puff would agree on that.[/QUOTE]


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## virulient (Oct 3, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> I can't resist you viru for some strange reason. I want to stop...but you keep luring me back haha. No hard feelings, hope you honestly read my love letter to you earlier because I think you'll see my reading comprehension is far above the average pothead's (you said second grade, right?). But really, you just kind of ticked me off by laughing at what I posted and basically writing it off. No harm done though, I might have just misconstrued your tone, that's the thing about the written word, you can't understand the subtleties of conversation as well as with the spoken word.
> 
> But about the 180w...He showed me a picture of his 4,000w tray and asked to see a pic of my plants, which I used a 180w, so that's why I say that picture won't help him. He needs to see a picture of a tray with about 2.5-3k watts of led to compare effectively. If done properly, the penetration won't be an issue. What's so hard to understand about that?
> 
> ...


See......I love you. LOL. I agree with everything you just said. I think maybe comparing your 180w bud to a 400 or even a 600w for be a little more fair, but I agree the 1000w is tough to compete with, especially 4 of them. But yea, what you're saying about the SCRoG/SoG, that's the message I've been trying to portray all along. LED's are perfect for these conditions, because all you have to do is buy enough lights to cover your entire screen/canopy. I thought we were on the same page all along, then we somehow ended up arguing haha. No hard feelings!


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## virulient (Oct 3, 2011)

tokenbrownguy said:


> [Ok, thank you for the info. I assumed the combo would be good, but for the amount f heat, price, and perpetual cost of electricity, would i be better suited with a small hos ( another 250, ) or should i make the jump into led? If led, which wattage is preferred for optimal output? Btw, i would never say 'awesome-o' nor would i ask such a question...at least not in dem der, werds.QUOTE=virulient;6397777]What I was trying to get across, before I was attacked, is that LED's are fine for personal grows, micro grows, grow tents, SCRoG, SoG, LED's are great man. Unless you're growing monster sized plants like CG. The back and forth....that's every site. This is one of the most controversial conversations in our industry at the moment. We heat up, we cool down. In the long run, usually, RIU will get you some help and a good, informative, straight answer for any question that has one. Unfortunately, the question "Are LED's awesome-o?" doesn't have a good, informative, straight, and definitive answer. There are many variables, and people feel the need to argue over which variables are valid.
> 
> From what it sounds like you are trying to accomplish, LEDs and HID would both work out great. (If you are still going with a small time grow). And the brands I listed are still proven. Even puff would agree on that.


[/QUOTE]
I know. Cartman IS Awesome-o. Which single handedly makes the expression awesome-o, awesome.  I just got a new strain lol im baked.

Edit - To answer your question, combining LED and HID can produce very desirable results. It can result in a more full spectrum.


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## MurshDawg (Oct 4, 2011)

tokenbrownguy said:


> Ummmm...so what's a noob supposed to think about all of this?...not just the led isseus, but the way people present themselves here at riu? I'm not criticizing anyone or what they believe...I'm just saying, as a noob, this back and forth banter can be quite disheartening and confusing...I hope somebody can set the record straight on leds. Peace!


To set you straight on LEDs the tech is still too new. Furthermore, with the advent of any new technologies yopu typically have three castes of people; the embracers, the adapters, and the dinosaurs... no one wants to be a dinosaur


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## virulient (Oct 4, 2011)

There's a "Like" button. There should be a "Dislike" button. Or a "This person was too lazy to do their own research or testing so they go around repeating hear-say" button. Or just a "Dislike" button, I guess....


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## collective gardener (Oct 4, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> I can't resist you viru for some strange reason. I want to stop...but you keep luring me back haha. No hard feelings, hope you honestly read my love letter to you earlier because I think you'll see my reading comprehension is far above the average pothead's (you said second grade, right?). But really, you just kind of ticked me off by laughing at what I posted and basically writing it off. No harm done though, I might have just misconstrued your tone, that's the thing about the written word, you can't understand the subtleties of conversation as well as with the spoken word.
> 
> But about the 180w...He showed me a picture of his 4,000w tray and asked to see a pic of my plants, which I used a 180w, so that's why I say that picture won't help him. He needs to see a picture of a tray with about 2.5-3k watts of led to compare effectively. If done properly, the penetration won't be an issue. What's so hard to understand about that?
> 
> ...


 
Puff, you're absolutely right. I need to see a pic of a 3K LED grow. The problem I'm having is actually SEEING one. LOL. This has been the root of my frustration. You know how much that LED settup would cost. I just cannot jusify plunking down the $$$ until I see with my own eyes what they can do. I have heard FAR too many false claims about LED performace. It's not that I won't be a "pioneer"...I will. But, I need to go in with my eyes wide open. Before I spend the money, is it really too much to ask to actually see what they can do?

On that note, I'm currently in communication with California Lightworks. They are willing to let me demo the Solarstorm 800 if I thoroughly document the whole grow. The thing is, I can't just use one. I need 4 to really have a test worthwile, seperated from any HID light contamination. I won't change my settup for the sake of a light test. The $$$ must keep on flowing...just like the grow room bills do! With some luck, they'll realize that sending me 4 lights may be the best marketing ploy they have ever done. We'll see.


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## virulient (Oct 4, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Puff, you're absolutely right. I need to see a pic of a 3K LED grow. The problem I'm having is actually SEEING one. LOL. This has been the root of my frustration. You know how much that LED settup would cost. I just cannot jusify plunking down the $$$ until I see with my own eyes what they can do. I have heard FAR too many false claims about LED performace. It's not that I won't be a "pioneer"...I will. But, I need to go in with my eyes wide open. Before I spend the money, is it really too much to ask to actually see what they can do?
> 
> On that note, I'm currently in communication with California Lightworks. They are willing to let me demo the Solarstorm 800 if I thoroughly document the whole grow. The thing is, I can't just use one. I need 4 to really have a test worthwile, seperated from any HID light contamination. I won't change my settup for the sake of a light test. The $$$ must keep on flowing...just like the grow room bills do! With some luck, they'll realize that sending me 4 lights may be the best marketing ploy they have ever done. We'll see.


I think you should go around to the top 4-5 manufacturers, get ahold of someone with some authority, and get them to a thread or your website if you have one. Show them what you're accomplishing there, and show them what type of atmosphere their lights would be going into. If I had a company like that, I would JUMP on the opportunity to send a commercial-scale grow 4 of my lights. If I could advertise that someone growing PROFESSIONALLY, for a living, took 4 of my lights, and conducted a well-documented grow......and they worked well enough to compete! That would be one hell of an advertisement, I would jump all over that. Have you tried to call and talk with any of them yet?


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## davoswavos (Oct 4, 2011)

virulient said:


> What I was trying to get across, before I was attacked, is that LED's are fine for personal grows, micro grows, grow tents, SCRoG, SoG, LED's are great man. Unless you're growing monster sized plants like CG. The back and forth....that's every site. This is one of the most controversial conversations in our industry at the moment. We heat up, we cool down. In the long run, usually, RIU will get you some help and a good, informative, straight answer for any question that has one. Unfortunately, the question "Are LED's awesome-o?" doesn't have a good, informative, straight, and definitive answer. There are many variables, and people feel the need to argue over which variables are valid.
> 
> From what it sounds like you are trying to accomplish, LEDs and HID would both work out great. (If you are still going with a small time grow). And the brands I listed are still proven. Even puff would agree on that.


Bullshit all you guy's do is bicker on this site if people do there research they will find good led's just do the research yourself and don't listen to all these idiots that just bash on everyone that has anything good to say about leds. I have seen large grows with led's and your large plant theory you need to do a bit more research the glh v2's are so powerfull they need to be like 3-4' feet above canopy to keep from frying plants. Led's can be used for any type of grow you just have to know how to use them and specifically the model you will be using the best advice I can give for someone that is interested in led's would be to research on a different forum than this one because all the people that have had good led grows have gone elsewhere because of all the negativity here all thats left are the folks that ran off any reputable led grower.


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## collective gardener (Oct 4, 2011)

davoswavos said:


> Bullshit all you guy's do is bicker on this site if people do there research they will find good led's just do the research yourself and don't listen to all these idiots that just bash on everyone that has anything good to say about leds. I have seen large grows with led's and your large plant theory you need to do a bit more research the glh v2's are so powerfull they need to be like 3-4' feet above canopy to keep from frying plants. Led's can be used for any type of grow you just have to know how to use them and specifically the model you will be using the best advice I can give for someone that is interested in led's would be to research on a different forum than this one because all the people that have had good led grows have gone elsewhere because of all the negativity here all thats left are the folks that ran off any reputable led grower.


 
Could you please post links to these larger LED grows? I, for one, am very interested in any larger grow op running LED's. I would really like to see an LED that needed to be 3'-4' from the canopy. That just sounds to bright to be true. Perhaps we're stretching the truth a bit? My 1000 HPS's can be as close as 20" without burn.
Also, keep in mind, this is one of the more mellow LED discussions. If you look back, there's only a couple people who try and turn it into a "fuck you fest". Footclan seems a bit pent up...as in hasn't getten laid in a while, and Puff just seems pissed off from his first post, but he has cooled a bit.


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## Dennis Rodman (Oct 4, 2011)

I know the UFO panels and "xtreme LED" lights usually suck.
Anyone heard of KESSIL LEDs?
they look kinda ballin... at least for maybe smaller grows.. def not running a warehouse with them.


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## curly604 (Oct 4, 2011)

soooo bunch of stuff going on here , to much for me to address at once but let me just say that their are companies that use 5w chips in their lights already (by by penetration problems) and companies that i know of are pushing to further this. soon i think 5w diodes will be the standard and higher and lower wattage diodes will all be on the same panel (distributed evenly of coarse) , some diode companies are working on and have made prototypes for 50-90w diodes!!!!!! but they are still deep in testing as these diodes are not very efficient yet. also a friend of mine is starting an led company he is using 3w diodes some of which produce 200 lumens each ....... i wont get into how this is not a good way to measure light but either way that will add up quick. in closing i guess im saying that if you think led's are not gonna get big .....your wrong, im sorry but it is undeniable if already i can pump 2 oz's of some fine ass herb from a 2 spectrum light that was using 65 true watts of light power then surely there are lights out there TODAY that can match and even beat hps on yield and quality. couldnt agree more with the people that are sick of the haters here , what it all comes down to is it dont matter , whatever works best for you is what you should use , but hating trolling and bashing dont help no one in fact it puts you in the same spot as the government and the pigs ....... trying to hold us back from what we love.


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## Clonex (Oct 4, 2011)

curly604 said:


> soooo bunch of stuff going on here , to much for me to address at once but let me just say that their are companies that use 5w chips in their lights already (by by penetration problems) and companies that i know of are pushing to further this. soon i think 5w diodes will be the standard and higher and lower wattage diodes will all be on the same panel (distributed evenly of coarse) , some diode companies are working on and have made prototypes for 50-90w diodes!!!!!! but they are still deep in testing as these diodes are not very efficient yet. also a friend of mine is starting an led company he is using 3w diodes some of which produce 200 lumens each ....... i wont get into how this is not a good way to measure light but either way that will add up quick. in closing i guess im saying that if you think led's are not gonna get big .....your wrong, im sorry but it is undeniable if already i can pump 2 oz's of some fine ass herb from a 2 spectrum light that was using 65 true watts of light power then surely there are lights out there TODAY that can match and even beat hps on yield and quality. couldnt agree more with the people that are sick of the haters here , what it all comes down to is it dont matter , whatever works best for you is what you should use , but hating trolling and bashing dont help no one in fact it puts you in the same spot as the government and the pigs ....... trying to hold us back from what we love.


Pushing to furthur this means not yet - please can you link me these lights , TY


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## Clonex (Oct 4, 2011)

davoswavos said:


> Bullshit all you guy's do is bicker on this site if people do there research they will find good led's just do the research yourself and don't listen to all these idiots that just bash on everyone that has anything good to say about leds. I have seen large grows with led's and your large plant theory you need to do a bit more research the glh v2's are so powerfull they need to be like 3-4' feet above canopy to keep from frying plants. Led's can be used for any type of grow you just have to know how to use them and specifically the model you will be using the best advice I can give for someone that is interested in led's would be to research on a different forum than this one because all the people that have had good led grows have gone elsewhere because of all the negativity here all thats left are the folks that ran off any reputable led grower.


Well i for 1 am debating not ranting , although to start a comment with , Bullshit is not exactly a placid start is it , do you have any links or pictures to back up your claims ?


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## Clonex (Oct 4, 2011)

I just think they are lights ? i have said this before , why all the personal shit ? It seems to me that Myself , Corbat , Collective gardener etc all want to be using Led , but as we are larger scale growers , problems occur , we dont love our
HID's , we love the job they do and we are not oblivious to there drawbacks , there is no hating/loving or anything of this nature , we cant find a large scale Led grower that has cured the penatration or coverage problems, which is why we have not swapped yet , its that Simple ......
it's merely not enough for us if you come on and rant about who loves what and when ........
I need some links/pictures advice on company outlets and real evidence , which at present i cannot find! i would love the benefits of led without the loss in bud density , coverage and Penatration, Peace !
at the end of the day we all want the same results here.........


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## curly604 (Oct 4, 2011)

.......... whats this ...... they do use led's for commercial grows ...... weird that if it is better in small places its just the same in large ....fml

[video=youtube;xm8vgHznTkg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm8vgHznTkg[/video]

and this is a couple years old now i believe , there are many people doing large scale medical grows in cali and denver and shit and they swear by it , another example my buddy just switched his whole house over from hps to led just because he didnt want to buy new a/c units that cost thousands of dollars up front and then alot to run over time too. i made the switch as well fuck high heat expensive to run potentially dangerous heat lamps just not my thing no more. 

also clonex i cant remember the name of the company right now but it has the word dog in it i believe hahaahah ill look further and get back to ya cheers man


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## curly604 (Oct 4, 2011)

here it is bro , they are really expensive but man those look like some baddass units. http://www.blackdogled.com/products/platinum-xl

those guys only run 3w chips or higher but they costy for the goodness haha. im in contact with a couple of guys starting led companies that were led growers themselves first got sick of all the shit and now there opening there own companies. they got some real nice specs all 3w chips and at really affordable prices...... so they say haha.


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## Clonex (Oct 4, 2011)

Sorry about your you-tube link - this has been proven nothing more than an advert , the ufo's are junk i have trialed them , those plants were grown under Hid's is my guess and ufo's hung after (remember im no hater), your other link however i have seen before , and they do look the business , i have contacted them and asked for a trial on 1 unit , with a 50% deposit and posted forum journals , to which they declined, this makes me dubious , at nearly 2k each , i need to know as i would need 5 , you can see my dillema , i have not given up hope on these yet , thanks for your replies


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## curly604 (Oct 4, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Sorry about your you-tube link - this has been proven nothing more than an advert , the ufo's are junk i have trialed them , those plants were grown under Hid's is my guess and ufo's hung after (remember im no hater), your other link however i have seen before , and they do look the business , i have contacted them and asked for a trial on 1 unit , with a 50% deposit and posted forum journals , to which they declined, this makes me dubious , at nearly 2k each , i need to know as i would need 5 , you can see my dillema , i have not given up hope on these yet , thanks for your replies


brotha man you gotta clear the bad thoughts about leds out of your head and start over, yes MOST UFO led's suck but not all. well to be fair i only know of those prosource ones to be good and i am not a fan of ufo's either but i have seen and talked to people that use those ones with great results...... i know that video might be hard to believe but those little fuckers cost a fuckass of a lot compared to other models and apparently deliver i myself have no experience with them but have seen journals that turned out well. that being said i would definitely stay away from ufo led's.

looking for good quality shit that wont break the bank? check growledhydro.com the spectra model they got is nice i have a 290w one and it kicks ass


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## curly604 (Oct 4, 2011)

also mike the owner of GLH will give discounts for forum members and does wholesale discounts but i think that starts at 15+ units , pretty solid company if ya can get a hold of the guy (he needs a receptionist lol)


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## Clonex (Oct 4, 2011)

curly604 said:


> brotha man you gotta clear the bad thoughts about leds out of your head and start over, yes MOST UFO led's suck but not all. well to be fair i only know of those prosource ones to be good and i am not a fan of ufo's either but i have seen and talked to people that use those ones with great results...... i know that video might be hard to believe but those little fuckers cost a fuckass of a lot compared to other models and apparently deliver i myself have no experience with them but have seen journals that turned out well. that being said i would definitely stay away from ufo led's.
> 
> looking for good quality shit that wont break the bank? check growledhydro.com the spectra model they got is nice i have a 290w one and it kicks ass


You mis understood , the video you linked is a proven fake , and the third link , they just dont cut it in a large scale op , i wish they did.i did not say they "suck" i said they dont make them yet....


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## curly604 (Oct 4, 2011)

hmmmm interesting well their ufo's do work i seen it haha but again i hate ufo's and dont recomend them anyhow. man it sucks that people have to fuck with the led industry so much with fake video's and fake reviews and shit .... fucking idiots. 

well i guess i should have started by asking what size space you looking to fill?


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## Clonex (Oct 4, 2011)

curly604 said:


> hmmmm interesting well their ufo's do work i seen it haha but again i hate ufo's and dont recomend them anyhow. man it sucks that people have to fuck with the led industry so much with fake video's and fake reviews and shit .... fucking idiots.
> 
> well i guess i should have started by asking what size space you looking to fill?


Sorry yeah they do work in small closet/box grows , i run 4 x 600w hps in a 12x14 area, vert , umbrella parobolic hoods -ac cooled , 15 Large plants under each hood , some MH side lighting on runners....


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## curly604 (Oct 4, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Sorry yeah they do work in small closet/box grows , i run 4 x 600w hps in a 12x14 area, vert , umbrella parobolic hoods -ac cooled , 15 Large plants under each hood , some MH side lighting on runners....


ok well, yep it could be done for sure. what i would do if i was running the show and was looking into led's is, well lets say i went with GLH i would grab 5 of the 500w models (which do run at 500w true power contradictory to the site) and slam em in there ....done , haha well not quite but i dont know if your familiar with irish boy but he is a grower here on riu that uses the spectra's and he pulled 19oz's from 1 of there 500w models pretty impressive in my books. my big thing is the heat hps gives off and the big ass expensive a/c units needed to cool them. how much ya pay for yours? i find that if you add up total cost of hps vs led , including all the crazy shit like the excessive amounts of fans and a/c units needed to cool hps that it comes pretty close especially if ya get a discount or wholesale price. and of coarse the cost of running these things over time compared to not will add up quick even more so if you live in a hot climate area a/c costs add up real fast


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## Clonex (Oct 4, 2011)

curly604 said:


> ok well, yep it could be done for sure. what i would do if i was running the show and was looking into led's is, well lets say i went with GLH i would grab 5 of the 500w models (which do run at 500w true power contradictory to the site) and slam em in there ....done , haha well not quite but i dont know if your familiar with irish boy but he is a grower here on riu that uses the spectra's and he pulled 19oz's from 1 of there 500w models pretty impressive in my books. my big thing is the heat hps gives off and the big ass expensive a/c units needed to cool them. how much ya pay for yours? i find that if you add up total cost of hps vs led , including all the crazy shit like the excessive amounts of fans and a/c units needed to cool hps that it comes pretty close especially if ya get a discount or wholesale price. and of coarse the cost of running these things over time compared to not will add up quick even more so if you live in a hot climate area a/c costs add up real fast


I did run a trial with 4 panels 3 years ago and the results were rubbish to be frank , when they were to hi , i could not get enough penertration and when lower i could not get coverage on enough plants , the light intensity just was not there , also the money i saved on power and less ventalation was wiped out , although the bud sizes were still there , and also some nice dank bud - but the density and weight was no where near , infact less than half , also alot of the heat my hid's is reproduced into my loose flowering tents which are on during the day as apose to main room which runs 12 hour cycle at night , so they keep each other warm if you get what i mean , when running all LED's i had to make this heat using space heaters , also not to cheap to run , in the end including the ridiculous price of the panels , me and my customers were far worse off ....


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## curly604 (Oct 5, 2011)

Clonex said:


> I did run a trial with 4 panels 3 years ago and the results were rubbish to be frank , when they were to hi , i could not get enough penertration and when lower i could not get coverage on enough plants , the light intensity just was not there , also the money i saved on power and less ventalation was wiped out , although the bud sizes were still there , and also some nice dank bud - but the density and weight was no where near , infact less than half , also alot of the heat my hid's is reproduced into my loose flowering tents which are on during the day as apose to main room which runs 12 hour cycle at night , so they keep each other warm if you get what i mean , when running all LED's i had to make this heat using space heaters , also not to cheap to run , in the end including the ridiculous price of the panels , me and my customers were far worse off ....


alright , well if it was three years ago let me tell you things have changed a bit. if ya got into led's 3 years ago i can see where your hate / anguish is comig from , let me tell you in 3 years alot of ground has been taken and some led's have come into place to even trump hps in quality and yield. i dont know where ya live but i need no suplimental space heaters to keep my girls happy , nor does my buddy with a full house , but where i live has very mild winters so i understand your pain. some of the new lights that are out are on par with hps lights man , but thats when measured watt for watt alot of people get that shit mixed up.

also ever heard of sog? haha shit is awesome , people say dwarf plants , i say an entire plant that is all bud ..... and i can fit 10 of them in the space of 1 regular plant ....... sorry i love sog , way to g with led's. and some people say "ohhhhhh thats a dwarf grow" ......... so what if it matches your numbers then shut up , what does it matter anyway what style of grow i use .... if it works well for me then why the fuck not right.


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## virulient (Oct 5, 2011)

curly604 said:


> alright , well if it was three years ago let me tell you things have changed a bit. if ya got into led's 3 years ago i can see where your hate / anguish is comig from , let me tell you in 3 years alot of ground has been taken and some led's have come into place to even trump hps in quality and yield. i dont know where ya live but i need no suplimental space heaters to keep my girls happy , nor does my buddy with a full house , but where i live has very mild winters so i understand your pain. some of the new lights that are out are on par with hps lights man , but thats when measured watt for watt alot of people get that shit mixed up.
> 
> also ever heard of sog? haha shit is awesome , people say dwarf plants , i say an entire plant that is all bud ..... and i can fit 10 of them in the space of 1 regular plant ....... sorry i love sog , way to g with led's. and some people say "ohhhhhh thats a dwarf grow" ......... so what if it matches your numbers then shut up , what does it matter anyway what style of grow i use .... if it works well for me then why the fuck not right.


SoG/LED is great man, I have setup a few of those type of grows for my clients, and they LOVE it so far. What kind of LED panel(s) are you using/how many watts/whats your coverage area? Clonex doesn't like LED's because he grows monsters haha, he needs the penetration of the HID systems. 

That being said, Clonex - If you have the cash up front, and you really want to try LED's, AdvancedLED has a 90 day, no questions asked, money back guarantee. And their DiamondSeries is hawt  You could try flowering a few girls under them and see how you like them, because there's no question LED's are more than adequate for veg, the penetration during flowering is the only question. I think they would really surprise you.


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## curly604 (Oct 5, 2011)

...... clonex so does black dog led ..... just gotta throw the money out up front .... i know though i wouldn't want to do it either .... who knows right.

and viru i have just started with led's but my first run i had 3 vegged and 3 12/12 from seed girls in my 4x4 tent under a 2 spectrum "120w" chineese led that ran at about 60-80 true watts and i pulled 2 oz's and that was my first hydro and first led run ..... lots of fuck ups .... i could have done even better but i was happy cause the bud was top notch "AAA"


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## virulient (Oct 5, 2011)

curly604 said:


> ...... clonex so does black dog led ..... just gotta throw the money out up front .... i know though i wouldn't want to do it either .... who knows right.
> 
> and viru i have just started with led's but my first run i had 3 vegged and 3 12/12 from seed girls in my 4x4 tent under a 2 spectrum "120w" chineese led that ran at about 60-80 true watts and i pulled 2 oz's and that was my first hydro and first led run ..... lots of fuck ups .... i could have done even better but i was happy cause the bud was top notch "AAA"


Yea man, that's decent! I've set a few people up with a LED/DWC SoG setup and they're loving it. It's all automated, all they have to do is change the rez out every week and check their plants for problems daily. They're getting good results, too.


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## Clonex (Oct 5, 2011)

curly604 said:


> alright , well if it was three years ago let me tell you things have changed a bit. if ya got into led's 3 years ago i can see where your hate / anguish is comig from , let me tell you in 3 years alot of ground has been taken and some led's have come into place to even trump hps in quality and yield. i dont know where ya live but i need no suplimental space heaters to keep my girls happy , nor does my buddy with a full house , but where i live has very mild winters so i understand your pain. some of the new lights that are out are on par with hps lights man , but thats when measured watt for watt alot of people get that shit mixed up.
> 
> also ever heard of sog? haha shit is awesome , people say dwarf plants , i say an entire plant that is all bud ..... and i can fit 10 of them in the space of 1 regular plant ....... sorry i love sog , way to g with led's. and some people say "ohhhhhh thats a dwarf grow" ......... so what if it matches your numbers then shut up , what does it matter anyway what style of grow i use .... if it works well for me then why the fuck not right.


I agree with your comments , and i know results can be produced growing small plants"sea of green" to great effect , but my growing area is 9ft high , id be a fool no to use all the space - i took the 10k plunge 3 years ago , i will only do so again when i have all the correct evidence , which at present is not available , i have started a thread asking any large scale led growers to give me the nod , but nothing yet....


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## Clonex (Oct 5, 2011)

virulient said:


> SoG/LED is great man, I have setup a few of those type of grows for my clients, and they LOVE it so far. What kind of LED panel(s) are you using/how many watts/whats your coverage area? Clonex doesn't like LED's because he grows monsters haha, he needs the penetration of the HID systems.
> 
> That being said, Clonex - If you have the cash up front, and you really want to try LED's, AdvancedLED has a 90 day, no questions asked, money back guarantee. And their DiamondSeries is hawt  You could try flowering a few girls under them and see how you like them, because there's no question LED's are more than adequate for veg, the penetration during flowering is the only question. I think they would really surprise you.


good comments and i totally agree - i have taken this route with advanced led systems , but they declined , they offered 90 days , i asked for 120 days on 5 units , they didnt even consider it , i told them i wanted to logg a complete journal , using sativa dominant strains , with a 40 day vegg cycle and an 80 day flower period , they would have access to the journal and of course would be holding my money , they ran a mile ........it's no wonder im dubious ehh...


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## Clonex (Oct 5, 2011)

The thread i started maybe a month ago.... https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/470276-growing-large-area-using-more.html


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## Da.Midnight.Toker (Oct 5, 2011)

how many watts of led will i need for just 2 plants? Im an absolute beginner here and have nooooooo clue lol. All halp and advice much appreciated


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## curly604 (Oct 5, 2011)

your in the wrong thread bro , check out the "led growing is the way of the future" or the "led users unite" thread you'll get some good info there


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## Vapor Nation (Oct 5, 2011)

My experience with a Blackstar LED and a mess of CFLs was nothing but positive. Growth was relatively quick after the plants were placed in a larger space. The buds were covered in crystals at the end and the smell was pungent. I was so pleased that I planned on getting another LED to toss in for the next round.


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## Da.Midnight.Toker (Oct 5, 2011)

How many watts of cfl dual for 2 plants? Its a bit on top where I live, people gettin busted all time so would prefer to use leds really. Again, all help and advice appreciated ;D


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## Da.Midnight.Toker (Oct 5, 2011)

:s oh ok. Thanks. 1st time on 1 of these chat site things - dnt know how they wrk lol


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## alexplt (Oct 5, 2011)

http://www.specialty-lights.com/metalhalide1000.html


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## alexplt (Oct 5, 2011)

http://www.specialty-lights.com/902825.html killer veg light :3


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## curly604 (Oct 5, 2011)

also thought i would post this up ....... 1w all the way up to 100w ...... does anybody think led's are still gonna have penetration problems? at that any problems at all.
http://szgmled.en.alibaba.com/product/478826768-212668040/2011_hottest_100_watt_light_emitting_diode.html


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## virulient (Oct 5, 2011)

curly604 said:


> also thought i would post this up ....... 1w all the way up to 100w ...... does anybody think led's are still gonna have penetration problems? at that any problems at all.
> http://szgmled.en.alibaba.com/product/478826768-212668040/2011_hottest_100_watt_light_emitting_diode.html


Lmao, those look interesting. I'd like to see some of the 10w diodes in action


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## bwes17 (Oct 6, 2011)

For those of you saying you tried LED's a few years ago... I say give it another go, the technology has come a LONG way since then.

And if you're having luck with HID or CFL or MH or whatever, but not with LED, couldn't it be that you need to tailor your grow technique to the type of light? For example, LEDs don't put out as much heat so your soil doesn't dry out as fast. Therefore, you need to adjust your water and nutrient application so as not to drown/burn the plant.

I've seen some sick grows, from 1 to 2 units up to 20+ units, using all LEDs, and the growers were having no problems, only good results.


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## Clonex (Oct 6, 2011)

bwes17 said:


> For those of you saying you tried LED's a few years ago... I say give it another go, the technology has come a LONG way since then.
> 
> And if you're having luck with HID or CFL or MH or whatever, but not with LED, couldn't it be that you need to tailor your grow technique to the type of light? For example, LEDs don't put out as much heat so your soil doesn't dry out as fast. Therefore, you need to adjust your water and nutrient application so as not to drown/burn the plant.
> 
> I've seen some sick grows, from 1 to 2 units up to 20+ units, using all LEDs, and the growers were having no problems, only good results.


 Yeah lend me 12.500 ( what i need to replace my hid's) , i will let you know how it goes


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## collective gardener (Oct 6, 2011)

bwes17 said:


> For those of you saying you tried LED's a few years ago... I say give it another go, the technology has come a LONG way since then.
> 
> And if you're having luck with HID or CFL or MH or whatever, but not with LED, couldn't it be that you need to tailor your grow technique to the type of light? For example, LEDs don't put out as much heat so your soil doesn't dry out as fast. Therefore, you need to adjust your water and nutrient application so as not to drown/burn the plant.
> 
> I've seen some sick grows, from 1 to 2 units up to 20+ units, using all LEDs, and the growers were having no problems, only good results.


 
You have some links to the larger grows???


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## bwes17 (Oct 7, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> You have some links to the larger grows???


I've seen them in person. The youtube page for Black Dog has some videos from some decent sized grows using all LEDs...and there are a few videos for other lights posted earlier in this thread.


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## virulient (Oct 7, 2011)

bwes17 said:


> I've seen them in person. The youtube page for Black Dog has some videos from some decent sized grows using all LEDs...and there are a few videos for other lights posted earlier in this thread.


A good number of those youtube videos can't be trusted. People will post videos of some HID-grown plants (or at least supplemented by HID), then they'll take em down and give you a video tour of their "led grow room". We were more or less looking for well-documented journals of large scale grows that either did a side by side or at least grew using LED's on a large scale. It would be best if you could somehow conclude that the person ISNT affiliated in any way with any of the LED manufacturers, but is merely a third party doing some real-life testing in a commercial environment.

This was my 420th post.


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## collective gardener (Oct 9, 2011)

Yeah...I don't trust that vid with all those UFO's. Also, it would be nice to see ALL of the buds...not just the primo tops. Even with HID's, before I had some real experience, I would end up with 40% small and loose buds. So, even though I could claim 1 gram/watt, I really only had .6 grams of quality product per watt. 

My current grow is mostly a Pre-98 Bubba. It;s, without question, the highest quality Pre-98 I've ever seen...but it's a shitty yielder. Isn't this the case with so many great strains. I get around .7 grams/watt....but 100% of it is perfect dense buds. To get this, a ton of pruning is required...even with 1000 watt HPS's blasting them. I've found that the key to this is to prune in such a way that light reaches the lower branches, but very little light hits the tray. When, and if, I try some LED's, I'll use the same technique, but with 24" plants in a higher density. The 700 and 800 watt LED's are the ones I have my eye on. I'm also looking at the 400 watt induction lights. Or, maybe a combo?


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## collective gardener (Oct 9, 2011)

bwes17 said:


> I've seen them in person. The youtube page for Black Dog has some videos from some decent sized grows using all LEDs...and there are a few videos for other lights posted earlier in this thread.


 
That would be a "no", then.


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## dbkick (Oct 9, 2011)

hoss12781 said:


> check my journal man, its in my signature. I'm very happy with my leds. Which brand did you use and how did you have them set up. From the sound of your first post I would wager you had a bunch of low wattage panels which do suck and should be avoided at all costs. They are the reason this tech gets a bad name. Real LED grow lights cost real money. Anything not throwing out at least 2w per diode is going to be shitty, anything using automotive grade leds is probably going to suck, and any unit that doesn't toss out at least 100w of actual led output, not total chip capacity is probably going to be weak sacue as well.
> 
> Please elaborate on your experience.


 Uh right then, not to be a dick but wheres the goods you're talking up? I looked at the link in your sig which I thought maybe was your journal but see nothing worth talking up thousands of dollars worth of LED :/


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## sachmo (Oct 9, 2011)

im just a guy trying to grow some to smoke and looking for some info that will help. thank you to those who try to look at these things objectively and put out information and expereince that can help.

what's up with the rest of you? why do people feel threatened by new technology? hid and sodium lights, and light bulbs themselves were all once new technology. thank goodness edison didnt have people on blogs saying "dude....electric light suck, candles RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## dbkick (Oct 9, 2011)

sachmo said:


> im just a guy trying to grow some to smoke and looking for some info that will help. thank you to those who try to look at these things objectively and put out information and expereince that can help.
> 
> what's up with the rest of you? why do people feel threatened by new technology? hid and sodium lights, and light bulbs themselves were all once new technology. thank goodness edison didnt have people on blogs saying "dude....electric light suck, candles RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 ok heres an example, I went to my hydro shop (thats I've shopped at for over a year) , and you know how notorious they are for selling you anything you're interested in (especially high ticket items) . So anyway I say to the dude "j , I'm interested in a nice LED, if you can guess which one I'll buy it today" , he just shook his head and said "you don't want an LED" then he went on to explain the stretch and shitty growth so it didn't take much to talk me out of it .I'd rather grow from start to finish with t5s than resort to LED.


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## WeJuana (Oct 9, 2011)

If you want to see a factual LED grow comparing 3 different makers, check the link in my sig.


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## dbkick (Oct 9, 2011)

WeJuana said:


> If you want to see a factual LED grow comparing 3 different makers, check the link in my sig.


 Interesting if you'd have done ONE HID too.
Interesting anyway actually, bookmarked, not subbed but bookmarked.


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## Clonex (Oct 9, 2011)

WeJuana said:


> If you want to see a factual LED grow comparing 3 different makers, check the link in my sig.


 They are small plants in small tents , we already no this can be done ? Nothing new is achieved in your journal , we are disputing using Led's in a large scale or commercial grow op , this is not to slander your efforts , but i am watching this thread with optimism, read through the thread, cheers.


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## trx250x7 (Oct 9, 2011)

I read about a Commercial grow for tomatos in NH that switched out all of there 1000w hps light.. Not pot but maybe contacting them would get some good anwsers to how they work. I dont remember the details


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## collective gardener (Oct 10, 2011)

sachmo said:


> im just a guy trying to grow some to smoke and looking for some info that will help. thank you to those who try to look at these things objectively and put out information and expereince that can help.
> 
> what's up with the rest of you? why do people feel threatened by new technology? hid and sodium lights, and light bulbs themselves were all once new technology. thank goodness edison didnt have people on blogs saying "dude....electric light suck, candles RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


First off, I don't think any of us are threatened by new tech. Quite the opposite. Many of us are very hopefull that one day LED can truly compete with current HID technology. You need to realize that new isn't always better. LED definately has the potential to be better, but 90% of the LED's out there are not even close. The bombardment of false claims by the LED industry did 2 things. #1 tons of noobs figured they had the key to being a successful grower. They would be the first kids on the block to go LED, and blow the socks off of all us old timers stuck in the past, and afraid of new technology. The second effect was that once people actually started USING these things, they realized that the claims were EXTREMELY overstated. It turns out that a 90 watt UFO actually DOES NOT grow as well as a 400 wat HPS. In fact, it wouldn't even grow as good as a 250 watt HPS. SO, us old timers did not become "afraid" of new technology, we just became extremely skeptical of LED maker's claims about what their lights can do. It didn't help that every noobie on the web was spouting off about LED's superior PAR, and how HPS were 90% inefficient, and LED's were the only way to go, Bla Bla Bla...All of this, damn near word for word from the LED company's advertising. 

Fortunately for LED, a few companies have realized that there is no substitute for pure raw power. We've noticed the new LED's with the most potential are no longer little 200 watt guys. Now, we're seeing 600...700...even 800 watt lights. These are the future.


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## TheOrganic (Oct 10, 2011)

I'm glad I didn't get a LED a few years ago. I'm sure I would have regret that since tech wasn't up to par to what it compared to a 400w.


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## Calidadd (Oct 11, 2011)

I don't think this has been addressed, (I've read & looked & couldn't find anything) Can anybody tell me if there's a conversion from lets say MH/HPS wattage to LED wattstage? For example: x amount of LED watts = x amount of HPS watts. Is there a formula or is the technology so new that there's no info out there? Thanks.


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## agesbuds (Oct 11, 2011)

Yup. The problem I had was I ordered 32watt panels cuz they were $59 for two panels. Someone said the more the better so we got 8. But they were shit and when you multiply shit times 8, you know what that sum is. Stay away from eBay LEDs. But yea lesson learned.


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## virulient (Oct 11, 2011)

Calidadd said:


> I don't think this has been addressed, (I've read & looked & couldn't find anything) Can anybody tell me if there's a conversion from lets say MH/HPS wattage to LED wattstage? For example: x amount of LED watts = x amount of HPS watts. Is there a formula or is the technology so new that there's no info out there? Thanks.


The conversion is subject of much debate, and to answer your question, unfortunately no, there is no conversion formula or anything like that yet. The problem is HID's are measured in lumens, which is visible light. But something around 80% of that light isn't usable in photosynthesis. This is where PAR rating steps in. The LED's have much more usable light, but not nearly as much power behind the spectra. In other words - penetration. We have learned from years of experience that HID systems can grow marketable (good, dense) buds all the way down to the growing medium on plants as tall as 4 feet. LED's, however, cannot penetrate this deeply, making the SoG (Sea of Green) or SCRoG (SCReen of Green) methods much more suitable. 

So we have 2 lights, 1 very strong, and 1 not so strong. The strong one, however has much less "usable" light, whereas the not so strong one has almost nothing BUT usable light. Therefore we have no way of comparing the two besides side by side grows in extremely controlled environments with little to 0 variable. At this time, without a new, universal, unit of measurement, that takes into account penetration AND PAR values, we have no way of coming up with a conversion formula.


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## curly604 (Oct 11, 2011)

Penepar!!!!!!


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## curly604 (Oct 11, 2011)

did i just invent that right now? lol


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## virulient (Oct 11, 2011)

*Channeling Talladega Nights* YUP!


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## collective gardener (Oct 12, 2011)

curly604 said:


> Penepar!!!!!!


The Penepar rating should be expressed as a percentage relative to a known light...like an HPS burning a Hortilux bulb. This is BY FAR the most popular growing settup, and many people are well aware of what that can do. Penepar can be what percentage a selected light can do relative to a 1000 watt HPS with Hortilux Bulb. Example: a 600 watt light burning a hortilux would be around 60% as poweful as a 1000 watt hortilux, and therefore have a penepar rating of 60....a 250 watt HPS a rating of 25, a 600 watt LED a rating of???

Penepar...the NEW rating system. I love it. It should be based on real world testing. Perhaps the Penepar rating could be somewhat subjective...the average of at least 3 grower's experience with a light compared to the 1000 Horti. Perhaps the Penepar could have a preceding number showing how many growers weighed in on the Penepar ratiung, and therefore how "strong" the rating is. Example: If 48 growers weighed in on the "Bud Blaster" 500, and their average rating was that the Bud Blaster grows 74% as good as a 100 Horti, the Penepar rating would be 48 Penepar 74...or 48P74.

If we wanted to stay away fro anything subjective, Penepar could be the avererage of several factors: lumens, Par watts, etc...

Let's weigh in on Penepar.


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## Clonex (Oct 12, 2011)

Collective Gardener , i was already baked , above paragraph just comatised me


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## curly604 (Oct 12, 2011)

collective gardener :

i like your enthusiasm on my new found baby , but i think your focusing to much on the growers and brand of light , this should be a measurement to see the rating between hps and led's. like what would the penepar value of a 1000w hps be compared to a 1000w led unit


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## iNFID3L (Oct 12, 2011)

agesbuds said:


> I had 8 LED pannels in my 4 by 4 tent and they didnt do their job. Super slow growth. Switched to T5"s like 3 weeks ago and now my plants grow close to 3 inches a week vs the 1'' for the first 3 weeks!!! THEY are JUNK imho. Sorry my fellow LED growers, but this was in mt experiance


yeh, thats a good idea, coming on here and telling people to steer clear of led, just because you had some shit luck, nice one !


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## trx250x7 (Oct 12, 2011)

Thats not even shit luck. thats not researching before your buyy. Everyone knows those are junk if you look around


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## Toolage 87 (Oct 12, 2011)

You prob bought a junk kind or brand. The one I bought cost $20 and my plants seem to love it and they are bushing out more then before. I'm happy for using my 13w LED panel for veg. As for flowering I wouldn't use it.


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## collective gardener (Oct 13, 2011)

curly604 said:


> collective gardener :
> 
> i like your enthusiasm on my new found baby , but i think your focusing to much on the growers and brand of light , this should be a measurement to see the rating between hps and led's. like what would the penepar value of a 1000w hps be compared to a 1000w led unit


 
That's why I was suggesting a baseline of the 1000 watt HPS. What if you assigned a penepar rating of 100 to a 1000 watt HPS burning a Horti, and then worked off of that? I'm just thinking so many of us know what a 1000 watt HPS will do in the real world. But, it's your baby...your call.


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## TedKorzenowskiJR (Oct 13, 2011)

"LEDs suck for plant growth"

Duh


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## Clonex (Oct 13, 2011)

TedKorzenowskiJR said:


> "LEDs suck for plant growth"
> 
> Duh


Thank you for your in depth and clever responce , we are nothing to a man of your stature , we are so lucky you graced us with your mere presance , i feel like a pimple on the "bum of humanity up to you" , if you have anything else to add , im sure like me , the others here are braced on the edge of their seats....


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## collective gardener (Oct 13, 2011)

TedKorzenowskiJR said:


> "LEDs suck for plant growth"
> 
> Duh


 
I'm with Clonex. You clearly put some thought into that response. Now that I know your opinion, any thoughts of eventually using LED are out the door. I mean, shit, if you say they suck...they suck. Thanks for sharing your vast range of growing experience with us.

On another subject. Would you like to come work with me? I have a 20K grow op and I could use a man with your experience. I klnow it may be slightly under you, but I would bring you in as full partner right away. I could also do a signing bonus and relocation package. After seeing your comment, I just have to have you working with us. I'm not going to let the competition sweep you away. Just tell me what you want for a salary, and I'll make it happen.

Whenever you get a chance, could you read through this thread and maybe respond to some more posts? That would be great.


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## Clonex (Oct 13, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I'm with Clonex. You clearly put some thought into that response. Now that I know your opinion, any thoughts of eventually using LED are out the door. I mean, shit, if you say they suck...they suck. Thanks for sharing your vast range of growing experience with us.
> 
> On another subject. Would you like to come work with me? I have a 20K grow op and I could use a man with your experience. I klnow it may be slightly under you, but I would bring you in as full partner right away. I could also do a signing bonus and relocation package. After seeing your comment, I just have to have you working with us. I'm not going to let the competition sweep you away. Just tell me what you want for a salary, and I'll make it happen.
> 
> Whenever you get a chance, could you read through this thread and maybe respond to some more posts? That would be great.


No chance , i Pm'd him this morning - i have his name on a contract - get your own scientist collective


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## unclebobbyb (Oct 13, 2011)

LED has come a long way. Eventually, they will probably be the preferred choice for hobby growers. Right now though, good LED's are a little too expensive.


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## virulient (Oct 13, 2011)

LOL my sarcasm is rubbing off on you guys.


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## curly604 (Oct 13, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> That's why I was suggesting a baseline of the 1000 watt HPS. What if you assigned a penepar rating of 100 to a 1000 watt HPS burning a Horti, and then worked off of that? I'm just thinking so many of us know what a 1000 watt HPS will do in the real world. But, it's your baby...your call.


hahaha awesome man , well my only thing is that we were trying to compare led's to hps on an even playing field , so now i just need to talk to a scientist on how to get his going lol.


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## collective gardener (Oct 13, 2011)

Clonex said:


> No chance , i Pm'd him this morning - i have his name on a contract - get your own scientist collective


You're a shrewd man, Clonex. You got me good. I don't even want to ask what kind of compensation package it took to get your hands on talent like that. I have a feeling that hiring him probably means I'll be working for _you_ in a year or so. With him as your Senior Growing Manager, worldwide marijuana production domination is yours. In fact, can I just come work for you right now?


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## collective gardener (Oct 13, 2011)

curly604 said:


> hahaha awesome man , well my only thing is that we were trying to compare led's to hps on an even playing field , so now i just need to talk to a scientist on how to get his going lol.


Talk to Clonex. His new Senior Growing Manager is second to none. He will know exactly what to do.


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## collective gardener (Oct 13, 2011)

unclebobbyb said:


> LED has come a long way. Eventually, they will probably be the preferred choice for hobby growers. Right now though, good LED's are a little too expensive.


Before the price can come down, alot more LED's will have to be produced. Before alot more are produced, alot more growers have to want to buy them. Before alot more growers want to buy them they have to be able to really compete with 1000 watt HPS's. I believe California Lightworks is on the right track. They aren't playing around with low wattage toys. That 800 watt Solar Storm looks like realistic competition for a 1000 HPS. Sure, it's only a 20% energy savings on direct lighting power. But the first thing that has to be made is an LED that actually kicks ass...THEN, they can start working on making it more efficient. Not the other way around, which is what LED makers tried with the UFO's and all the other Fisher Price units that claimed these massive energy savings. I'll be watching this company.


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## calibuzz (Oct 13, 2011)

agesbuds said:


> I had 8 LED pannels in my 4 by 4 tent and they didnt do their job. Super slow growth. Switched to T5"s like 3 weeks ago and now my plants grow close to 3 inches a week vs the 1'' for the first 3 weeks!!! THEY are JUNK imho. Sorry my fellow LED growers, but this was in mt experiance


 
Light Emiting Diaodes ( LEDs) have come along way. LEDs are brighter now than ever before. In addition they are relitively cool, like florecents ( CFLs which use inert gas stimulation by electron gun field from cathode to anode - knocking electrons loose and thus producing photon emmision). However, they should be used as suppliments to other lighting. For instance, in a traditional 1000 watt incandesent system, if you can afford to do it, so set up 500 watts of that delivery system in LED lighting - to lower mean temps. They same may be said with florecents. One might note that color LEDs are not full spectrum light, and thus should be mixed with all colors including the white light - for full spectum emmision, required for heathy growth.

LEDS will improve, but yes... not enough visible light photons and the plants will not rocket off the growth pad.


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## Toolage 87 (Oct 13, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Before the price can come down, alot more LED's will have to be produced. Before alot more are produced, alot more growers have to want to buy them. Before alot more growers want to buy them they have to be able to really compete with 1000 watt HPS's. I believe California Lightworks is on the right track. They aren't playing around with low wattage toys. That 800 watt Solar Storm looks like realistic competition for a 1000 HPS. Sure, it's only a 20% energy savings on direct lighting power. But the first thing that has to be made is an LED that actually kicks ass...THEN, they can start working on making it more efficient. Not the other way around, which is what LED makers tried with the UFO's and all the other Fisher Price units that claimed these massive energy savings. I'll be watching this company.


Yea LEDs will start to be compared to HPS and MH over time but as for right now the cheap ones like the $20 that i have can only be compared to CFLs but most compare all LED lights to HPS and MH.


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## El Superbeasto (Oct 13, 2011)

That "800 watt" LED from California Light Works has 160- 5 watt LEDs, it's 650 actual watts. http://californialightworks.com/uploads/2/9/2/4/2924177/solarstormspecs.pdf

If it can truly replace a 1000 watt HPS, put me down for a couple. As much as I'm an LED advocate, I remain skeptical on anything new, especially with claims yet to be proven.

I'll keep my eye on those LEDs though.



collective gardener said:


> Before the price can come down, alot more LED's will have to be produced. Before alot more are produced, alot more growers have to want to buy them. Before alot more growers want to buy them they have to be able to really compete with 1000 watt HPS's. I believe California Lightworks is on the right track. They aren't playing around with low wattage toys. That 800 watt Solar Storm looks like realistic competition for a 1000 HPS. Sure, it's only a 20% energy savings on direct lighting power. But the first thing that has to be made is an LED that actually kicks ass...THEN, they can start working on making it more efficient. Not the other way around, which is what LED makers tried with the UFO's and all the other Fisher Price units that claimed these massive energy savings. I'll be watching this company.


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## TedKorzenowskiJR (Oct 13, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I'm with Clonex. You clearly put some thought into that response. Now that I know your opinion, any thoughts of eventually using LED are out the door. I mean, shit, if you say they suck...they suck. Thanks for sharing your vast range of growing experience with us.
> 
> On another subject. Would you like to come work with me? I have a 20K grow op and I could use a man with your experience. I klnow it may be slightly under you, but I would bring you in as full partner right away. I could also do a signing bonus and relocation package. After seeing your comment, I just have to have you working with us. I'm not going to let the competition sweep you away. Just tell me what you want for a salary, and I'll make it happen.
> 
> Whenever you get a chance, could you read through this thread and maybe respond to some more posts? That would be great.


 Are you using 20,000 watts of leds? Man, you better get back to your commercial led grow....


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## anotherdaymusic (Oct 13, 2011)

LOL!!!! there are plenty of people flowering and vegging, or just one or the other, and the buds look great... plenty o folks...


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## virulient (Oct 13, 2011)

TedKorzenowskiJR said:


> Are you using 20,000 watts of leds? Man, you better get back to your commercial led grow....


Aren't you a shop boy? Don't you have a register to attend to or something? Or a customer that needs assistance?


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## Illumination (Oct 13, 2011)

virulient said:


> aren't you a shop boy? Don't you have a register to attend to or something? Or a customer that needs assistance?


*rotflmfao!!!*


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## Illumination (Oct 13, 2011)

TedKorzenowskiJR said:


> Are you using 20,000 watts of leds? Man, you better get back to your commercial led grow....


Dude chill out...Collective gardener is one of the nicest most helpful people I have seen here in a long time...instead of engaging him in a mental battle for which you are so obnoxiously ill-equipped in comparison by a long shot, why don't you engage him with an inquisitive mine and get that real knowledge one can only get from actually running a 20000 watt grow? Doesn't that seem much more of a win to you than this useless challenge which you have a snowball's chance in hell of winning? Just saying....


Namaste'


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## collective gardener (Oct 13, 2011)

TedKorzenowskiJR said:


> Are you using 20,000 watts of leds? Man, you better get back to your commercial led grow....


 
Currently 20k of HID. Actually, at the momment, 18k...a couple of veg lights are not being used. I'm hoping, some day, god willing, with luck, and some breakthroughs, to be replacing it all with LED's, induction, or some combination of the 2. My hopes would be to cutt the wattage to around 13-15k with the same production. The technology to do this is not here yet. I have no illusions that it is. But, with bigger and more powerful LED and induction lighting in developement, maybe we can get there in a few years. 

With the current LED technology, it would be finacial suicide for me to transition now. But, to make the blanket statement, as you did, that LED's don't work, is kind of narrow minded. It's no different than the LED fanatics claiming that HID tech is outdated and LED is the only way to go. If you have any ambitions of being successful in this industry, you must keep an open mind. I tell this to myself as much as anybody. I'm pretty old school. I grow in rockwool, and top feed by hand drain to waste. My cuts are rooted in a $3.00 tray with a $5.00 clear dome. I see no reason to change anything on this front. But, HID's have some serious drawbacks. We're in the middle of a heatwave right now, and I spent my day hoping my A/C and exhaust systems would do their job...and they were all working quite hard today. The though of only needed a couple tons of A/C to keep my temps right gives me a hardon. We need new lighting in this industry, and it's looking like LED may be that lighting. I'd encourage you to open your eyes and your mind to what the future may have to offer. I'm not pushing LED's...there's not an LED on the market that can do what my 1000 watt HPS's do for me. But, that doesn't mean there won't be soon.


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## Clonex (Oct 14, 2011)

TedKorzenowskiJR said:


> Are you using 20,000 watts of leds? Man, you better get back to your commercial led grow....


My Senior grow Manager that is - he never fails to amaze me - Always on top form - He don't say much , but when he does , you know it.


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## puffenuff (Oct 14, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> there's not an LED on the market that can do what my 1000 watt HPS's do for me. But, that doesn't mean there won't be soon.


Jumping back in here because I don't necessarily agree: based on my own led use I am confident that some available now can match 1,000w hps. Neither you nor anyone else here has tested every led unit on the market. Like I said before, just because you don't know about it doesnt mean it isnt out there. Feel free to make that blanket statement after you've tested most of the ~600~800 led lights.


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## Samwell Seed Well (Oct 14, 2011)

you know what he means overall quality and quantity

whats the best grams per a watt ratios LEDs can throw up, and amount of product isnt always the most important trait, but if its the one thing you require from a grow then its the only thing that you need to not buy a LED light fixture

as much as they claim efficiency (led's) 600watts is 600 watts better be able to get a gram a watt + or your just playin in the kiddie pool


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## collective gardener (Oct 14, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> Jumping back in here because I don't necessarily agree: based on my own led use I am confident that some available now can match 1,000w hps. Neither you nor anyone else here has tested every led unit on the market. Like I said before, just because you don't know about it doesnt mean it isnt out there. Feel free to make that blanket statement after you've tested most of the ~600~800 led lights.


I don't have to test them all. That's the LED maker's job. And, you can bet your ass that if there was an LED light that could IN ALL WAYS compete with an HPS, the maker of that light would have platered the test all over the web. When "The Light" is developed, we will all know it in no uncertain terms.


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## puffenuff (Oct 14, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I don't have to test them all. That's the LED maker's job. And, you can bet your ass that if there was an LED light that could IN ALL WAYS compete with an HPS, the maker of that light would have platered the test all over the web. When "The Light" is developed, we will all know it in no uncertain terms.


You're not as open minded as you lead people to believe. Now I remember why I stopped participating in this conversation.


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## anotherdaymusic (Oct 14, 2011)

whoever posted this is a fucking dumb ass grower... you can grow anything with the right lighting. this is an isolated incident where you have no idea how to take care of a proper plant. There are PLENTY of people with dank dense nuggets with lower wattage leds.


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## Clonex (Oct 14, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> You're not as open minded as you lead people to believe. Now I remember why I stopped participating in this conversation.


How is he not open minded ? have you read any of his comments ?
He is a Hid user that would love to swap to led as am i ,? If you have knowledge of a product that can match a Hid 1000w - 600w , for penatration, coverage and consistant dense bud formations on say a 4ft - 5ft plant than lets hear it ? I have trialed so called decent Led units to a cost of 10.5 k and im talkings £'s not $ and i had all the above problems , i was not happy at running 1 unit so i replaced all my 600w hid units with them x 4 , the results were megre to say the least in comparison to what i was achieving , i also wasted alot of time and had to build back up , the return on selling this led units second hand was also pathetic , so , do you think i should try that again ? no , a better plan would be to seek honest led manufactuers and wait this time until i have the facts , keep and open mind or dive straight in as i did , anytime you have links or info on decent led products , give me a holar , i will be waiting...


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## collective gardener (Oct 15, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> You're not as open minded as you lead people to believe. Now I remember why I stopped participating in this conversation.


I'd rather not get into a pissing contest with you. If being "open minded" means I have to purchase and try every LED out there before I can claim that I'm not quite ready to switch, well, I'm sad to say, I cannot afford to be "open minded". What exactly is it that I'm being closed minded about? It's not a rhetorical question. If I somehow came across as being locked in my ways, I want to know. That's not the grower I strive to be. Shit, man, I have 2 lights in my bloom room dedicated to trying new nutrients and mediums. After 20+ years of growing I still want to try new things out. 

Until I see with my own eyes proof that there's an LED out there that can match 1000 watt HPS's, I'm sticking to my opinion that LED tech isn't there yet. I'm also standing by my statement that when LED gets there, we will all know it. The LED lovers won't have to quote PAR values and spectrum analysis. They will just start posting links of monster grows lit by the new LED Master Blaster Bud Bomber. Much like all the monster grows posted right now lit by shitty old HPS's.


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## El Superbeasto (Oct 15, 2011)

We have the same amount of growing years experience...

I use LEDs, like them a lot, and I can understand what you're saying. And I believe there is not 1 LED panel out there that will match a 1000 watt HPS. There are however plenty out there where 2 or 3 LED panels totaling together 1000 watts in LED, will match 1000 watts of HPS.



collective gardener said:


> I'd rather not get into a pissing contest with you. If being "open minded" means I have to purchase and try every LED out there before I can claim that I'm not quite ready to switch, well, I'm sad to say, I cannot afford to be "open minded". What exactly is it that I'm being closed minded about? It's not a rhetorical question. If I somehow came across as being locked in my ways, I want to know. That's not the grower I strive to be. Shit, man, I have 2 lights in my bloom room dedicated to trying new nutrients and mediums. After 20+ years of growing I still want to try new things out.
> 
> Until I see with my own eyes proof that there's an LED out there that can match 1000 watt HPS's, I'm sticking to my opinion that LED tech isn't there yet. I'm also standing by my statement that when LED gets there, we will all know it. The LED lovers won't have to quote PAR values and spectrum analysis. They will just start posting links of monster grows lit by the new LED Master Blaster Bud Bomber. Much like all the monster grows posted right now lit by shitty old HPS's.


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## WeedChip (Oct 15, 2011)

Here's how I saw it as a new grower.

LED's were basically expensive and seemed to be just experimental, not many people were shouting success a lot of people arguing like this.

So HID and the other 'hot lights' means lots of ventilation and heat more problems and a more complicated room, daunting really. 

CFL/T5 makes sense, lights you see everywhere so you know they work and are reliable. Low heat so less ventilation. Great for a starter I figured. 

But from what I've read around it seems to be Serious growers that want it to work right use HID's 
Smaller grows seem to be done with CFL's and T5's and staelthy ones.
LED's seem to be for the people who want to try out what is a new technology riddled with problems, but maybe in another 10 years we will all be using them.


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## collective gardener (Oct 15, 2011)

WeedChip said:


> Here's how I saw it as a new grower.
> 
> LED's were basically expensive and seemed to be just experimental, not many people were shouting success a lot of people arguing like this.
> 
> ...


 
That's a very nice summary. The only point just slightly of target is HID being "daunting". When I started growing HID was the only option. When you purchased a set of lights, you also purchased an exhaust fan. That's about it for how dunting they are. I have seen some lovely and highly productive bedroom grows using 4 - 600 watt HPS's in very large air cooled reflectors, being cooled by one 8" inline fan. A single portable air conditioner, or a window unit, took care of the rest of the cooliing. Add another 8" inline fan and carbon filter (really needed in any light style grow) and you're lighting, odor control, and cooling is complete. It's also a settup that can easily produce 4+ pounds every 8 weeks. 

These are great settups for beginners and experts alike. It's the exact settup I've installed in several people's bedrooms and converted garages. It is NOT daunting. It is very productive. The total cost for lighting, venting, and cooling is under $3,000. And, that's using name brand ballasts, reflectors, and bulbs. Let's say $5,000 with all the other growing stuff needed and a bunch of clones to get started. How much are you getting for 4lbs?


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## WeedChip (Oct 15, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> How much are you getting for 4lbs?


11,520 Nice double money. 

However my CFL grow only cost me 100 to set up and has given me 3oz (180 per oz here) and that was my first little attempt, so for my smaller grow there was a larger 'profit' (saved me on smoke) margin.

Looking back I am sure if I had gone down the HID road it would of been just as easy, I thought it would be much harder to grow and set up this lot.


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## curly604 (Oct 15, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> That's a very nice summary. The only point just slightly of target is HID being "daunting". When I started growing HID was the only option. When you purchased a set of lights, you also purchased an exhaust fan. That's about it for how dunting they are. I have seen some lovely and highly productive bedroom grows using 4 - 600 watt HPS's in very large air cooled reflectors, being cooled by one 8" inline fan. A single portable air conditioner, or a window unit, took care of the rest of the cooliing. Add another 8" inline fan and carbon filter (really needed in any light style grow) and you're lighting, odor control, and cooling is complete. It's also a settup that can easily produce 4+ pounds every 8 weeks.
> 
> These are great settups for beginners and experts alike. It's the exact settup I've installed in several people's bedrooms and converted garages. It is NOT daunting. It is very productive. The total cost for lighting, venting, and cooling is under $3,000. And, that's using name brand ballasts, reflectors, and bulbs. Let's say $5,000 with all the other growing stuff needed and a bunch of clones to get started. How much are you getting for 4lbs?


yo collective is your 8 week harvest due to a perpetual grow or you running a fast maturing strain?


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## collective gardener (Oct 16, 2011)

curly604 said:


> yo collective is your 8 week harvest due to a perpetual grow or you running a fast maturing strain?


I should have added that these settups require a small veg room. Usually, a large closet will due just fine. It would be silly to settup 4 HID's without a veg room, too. If room was an issue, take it down to 3 HPS's and add a veg room in a tent. 

My current grow is a perpetual. We run 3 - 8x8 trays in bloom 20 days apart. Each tray is lit by 4 - 1000 watt HPS's with Digilux bulbs. I also run 2 - 3x3 trays, each lit by a 600 for testing. I just found 2 - 600 watt Phantom ballasts new in the box that I had forgot about! So, as of tomorrow, I'll be running 4 - 3x3 test trays. These keep the growing fun for me. I can maintain good production with the 3 big trays with known strains and growing methods. Then, I can play with new strains, nutrients, bulbs, canopy shape, plant density, and mediums (if any) in the 4 testing trays. These are my play trays. I haven't ran any aeroponics or NFT grows in a while and am considering these methods in the new little trays. I may be testing the possibility of developing a microherd in rockwool blocks to see if I can run a live soil organic grow in rockwool. 

When I discover an LED that seems like it may work for me, I will put it over one 3x3 tray and test it against a 600 HPS on another tray. All other factors will be the same. This would be a very preliminary test, as the ultimate goal is to be able to replace the 12 - 1000 watt HPS's over the 3 big trays. But, it will give me a good idea of what the light can do under real world conditions. When I finally do this, I promise to fully document the test in real time on the thread in my sig.


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## El Superbeasto (Oct 16, 2011)

If I were in your shoes, with 20'000 watts (I assume for just flowering), this is just me though... Bear with me though...

With all due respect first of all...

I'd be looking for ways for a better efficiency a little here and there, I've seen plenty of "big commercial" growers admit already that LED watt for watt competes with HPS, but "only if grown a certain way, and on a smaller scale", ie, sog or scrog, there I agree, myself though, YOU say you get how many grams per watt of flowering power? And how many watts of veg power and at how many weeks? Why can't you adapt after testing, and do scrog with LED, and get that 0.9 gpw+ with no ac?

I get 0.7 grams-0.9 grams per watt with just flowering watts, and per every 100 watts I use for flowering, I use 10-15 in veg, and only veg for 2-3 weeks. AND I get 0.7-0.9 grams per watt from flowering, OF GOOD USABLE SMOKEABLE GRADE A POT.

If you can get that (which is no surprise, many LED growers are getting that, I'm no guru), why not take that 3 x 3 - 4 x 4 garden that LEDs excel in, and put multiple 3 x 3 - 4 x 4s together and get that 0.9 grams per watt, with no extra air conditioning!? 

If you're truly growing 20000 watts worth of pot, I am sure you can afford a $700 LED, and a small corner of a growing area with 6-8 clones and some coco or whatever you grow in, a drop in the bucket compared to the $1000s you're spending on your 20000 watt grow. Then you will see first hand if LEDs work, or not, and you can make an educated opinion on LEDs, and if you would use them after your first couple tests.

At 20000 watts, and $1000 per pound (per se), and just 0.5 grams per watt, that is still 6 figures per year, clearly enough to try out a $700 LED and a small corner somewhere, try it out for a couple grows and decide first hand if it is something worth using or not... You have what, "20 years experience growing"? I started growing in 1992, I try things first hand before letting peoples lack of experience opinions dictate how much I spend every month on my garden.

Come on CG... I respect your growing experience, but your decisions for moving forward are sketchy at best.



collective gardener said:


> I should have added that these settups require a small veg room. Usually, a large closet will due just fine. It would be silly to settup 4 HID's without a veg room, too. If room was an issue, take it down to 3 HPS's and add a veg room in a tent.
> 
> My current grow is a perpetual. We run 3 - 8x8 trays in bloom 20 days apart. Each tray is lit by 4 - 1000 watt HPS's with Digilux bulbs. I also run 2 - 3x3 trays, each lit by a 600 for testing. I just found 2 - 600 watt Phantom ballasts new in the box that I had forgot about! So, as of tomorrow, I'll be running 4 - 3x3 test trays. These keep the growing fun for me. I can maintain good production with the 3 big trays with known strains and growing methods. Then, I can play with new strains, nutrients, bulbs, canopy shape, plant density, and mediums (if any) in the 4 testing trays. These are my play trays. I haven't ran any aeroponics or NFT grows in a while and am considering these methods in the new little trays. I may be testing the possibility of developing a microherd in rockwool blocks to see if I can run a live soil organic grow in rockwool.
> 
> When I discover an LED that seems like it may work for me, I will put it over one 3x3 tray and test it against a 600 HPS on another tray. All other factors will be the same. This would be a very preliminary test, as the ultimate goal is to be able to replace the 12 - 1000 watt HPS's over the 3 big trays. But, it will give me a good idea of what the light can do under real world conditions. When I finally do this, I promise to fully document the test in real time on the thread in my sig.


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## collective gardener (Oct 16, 2011)

El Superbeasto said:


> If I were in your shoes, with 20'000 watts (I assume for just flowering), this is just me though... Bear with me though...
> 
> With all due respect first of all...
> 
> ...


My "decisions for moving forward are sketchy at best?" I have no idea what that means. But, you need to understand that sitting on the sidelines and telling someone how to run a grow of my size is alot easier than doing it. I would like you to please look at the thread in my sig. There are PLENTY of pics. This way you can find out with your own eyes if I'm "truly growing with 20,000 watts". 

20K is total wattage. I have a large veg room because when we first started we had a limitted amount of patients and had to grow trees which needed some major veg time and space. 
I have no doubt that LED can probably match HID watt for watt if grown in a manner efficient for LED's. I have stated on prior posts that, having done the math, it is not worth the initial LED purchase price if the only savings is A/C and bulbs. For me, there must be some direct lighting energy savings to justify the purchase price. It's all just math. 

I don't know what you dissagree with. I think I stated pretty clearly in my last post that I intended on testing an LED or 2 in my new test trays just like you are suggesting. Was I not clear on that?

$1,000 per pound? I would eat a bullet. I hope to god it never comes to that. The Bubba gets $3,000 to $3,200. The Tahoe x Chemdog gets $3,600 to $4,000. Irinically, even at 4K for the Tahoe, we do much better with the Bubba at 3K. Those ultra top end elite genetics sometimes are shit yielders. We keep on growing it, though. The stuff is just too good not to. So, capitol is really not a problem. Plus, the collective has a line of credit set up by a wealthy member. If and when the numbers make sense, we will switch lighting. $$$ is not a problem. As far as a light to test, I'm in no hurry to make a decision. The Solar Storm by California LightWorks looks nice. Truthfully, I am simply waiting for one or 2 of the new higher wattage lights to emerge as a front runner. You say $700? I'm thinking closer to $2,000. What $700 LED are you talking about? The lights I've seen that have a snowballs chance in hell of competing with my current lighting are all $1,500+ per light. 

Don't forget plant count in you calculations about how I should run my grow. We can only have X amount of plants.


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## ChronicObsession (Oct 16, 2011)

Stay away from LEDSS??????????????? WHY?????? just because "somebody" bought some crappy LED lamp that doesn't have a name or any reference at all, you go ahead and take a painful dump on the whole technology???? why not spread good advice, like stay away from crack. sheeesh


agesbuds said:


> I had 8 LED pannels in my 4 by 4 tent and they didnt do their job. Super slow growth. Switched to T5"s like 3 weeks ago and now my plants grow close to 3 inches a week vs the 1'' for the first 3 weeks!!! THEY are JUNK imho. Sorry my fellow LED growers, but this was in mt experiance


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## ChronicObsession (Oct 16, 2011)

600 watts. 300 leds @ 2 watts each.





above is a very good lamp...
did you use a crappy UFO like this next one? yes, IMO they are too shitty to consider for growing marijuana, but china knows how to sell crap, and lots of people buy UFOs because they are wayyyyyy cheaper than blackstar.


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## ChronicObsession (Oct 16, 2011)

some 3 watt blue diodes will emit about 20 lumens max each, so even then, to reach to the 100,000 lumen range is unfortunately not possible, and it's the buyer's responsibility to check out the lumens rating before they throw away their money


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## collective gardener (Oct 16, 2011)

ChronicObsession said:


> some 3 watt blue diodes will emit about 20 lumens max each, so even then, to reach to the 100,000 lumen range is unfortunately not possible, and it's the buyer's responsibility to check out the lumens rating before they throw away their money


 
First off, dig your avatar. Reminds me how cool it is to be an American these days. 

I agree on your take on the shitty LED's. Much of the discourse between growers on the LED debate should be blamed on the producers of cheap LED's who made far out claims about what they can do. Unfortunately, many people believe everything they read, and the LED literature puts forth a very compelling argument of how a 90 watt UFO can compete with a 400 watt HPS. On paper it all looked so good. I've been noticing that the guys on here that seem to be the best informed on LED technology lean toward the larger lights. They are also very realistic about how many watts of LED it takes to compete with, say, a 600 watt HPS. Alot of the older claims were stating that a couple hundred watts of LED would outperform a 600 watt HPS. The guys that seem to really know LED are saying it would be closr to 400-500 watts of LED to compete with a 600 watt HPS. These are figures that make sense to me. I don't think that such a small energy savings justifies the current cost. BUT, we all know that prices will soon come way down. Once a couple companies start cranking out some big ass panels that people will go out and buy in quantity, prices will start coming down. Anyone here remember how much microwaves were when they first came out?


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## thegreenlegend (Oct 16, 2011)

Got this over at ledgrowlights.com

*Comparing Lumens
*Comparing lumens from LED grow lights with that for HID lights is not a valid comparison for gauging plant growth potential. A lumen is a measurement of light that is based on the sensitivity of the human eye. This means that the for same amount of light energy, green light will measure about 10 times the lumens of the blue or red light. Since plants use mostly blue and red light, lumens are not really an appropriate index of plant growing efficiency. We gauge the effectiveness of our lights on actual plant growth.


I think they are confusing PAR for lumens... Par for people, lumens for plants.

Has anyone done a side by side HID/LED test yet?


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## DrFever (Oct 16, 2011)

hows this for comparison planted 3" clones on sept 11th vegged 23 days plants goin into flowe 43" tall thats 3" to 43" in 23 days and bin in flower now 11 days vegged 5000 watts flowering 8000 watts useing hordilux superblue MH and HPS in one bulb plants are approx 48 - 50" tall now total cost of lighting 3500.00
theres 90 plants there 

how much would it cost to make 8000 watts of LED


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## DrFever (Oct 16, 2011)

Now-a-days the diode technology has been improved so we can produce high power LED lamps whose intensity is higher. The commercially used LED lamp of 100 watt emits 7527 lumens, 7.527 lm/W (unit of intensity of light) which are brighter than incandescent lamps. The LED lights are replaceable with the conventional compact fluorescent & incandescent lamps. But there is a little problem in this replacement. The problem is that the diodes work only with direct current (DC). So we have to keep in mind that the LED lights do not withstand with AC. This purpose can be served by using a rectifier circuit internally. At a high temperature LED lights break down so it is important to include heat sinks or cooling fans in LED lights to ensure better performance as well as longevity. The initial cost of LED lamp is very high compare to fluorescent lamps or incandescent lamps. These lamps offer 30,000 hours of lifetime which is highest among incandescent lamps which offers 1,000 hours and compact fluorescent lamp which offers 8,000 hours of lifetime. These lamps can last up to 25-30 years approximately. Throughout its lifetime the LED lights offers brightest illumination among any other conventional lights present in market. These lights are mercury free and available in various colors. As the lamps are mercury free so ultraviolet can not be generated from these lamps.​ 

The commercially used LED lamp of 100 watt emits 7527 lumens times that by 10 for 1000 watts = 75270 lumens wow huh
and what does a hordilux HPS produce 145,000​


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## lostmarbles (Oct 16, 2011)

I got this 180 led jumbo from Prosource thru an 90 days trial. So far grown a foot within 2 1/2 weeks. This last week, growth was the fastest tho. No heat, still do not know the electrical bill increase yet. AND, I had to send back the first unit as the 4rd quarter switch just flashes. SO, I used it the first week of grow till the replacement show up. And send it back. SO, it was basically was at 135 watts of leds for the first week. This is in a 4 x 4 x 8 zip closet doing a 4 clone plants scrog at 10" from medium and already started training the last 4 -5 days. These jumbo units have 4 switches, one for each quarter to turn on or off. The reason for this is so we can cut down the spectrums needed for clones growth etc.Oh, first grow here, and hydro. So far, I'm happy. Not finished yet tho...


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## ChronicObsession (Oct 16, 2011)

i will back up what the Dr. said a couple or so posts back. in addition, good LED lamps that run 600W as they claim by using 300 leds at 2 watts each, are difficult to build. I mean, it takes good engineering, and unfortunately that means more money. I have been around philips leds for the home and they make full spectrum. I have a led lamp that has 10 watts and apparently there is a heat dissapattor of such pathetic mass that I had no idea until I opened it and found a little cooler fan inside and the tiny heatsink was a round disk with heat fins in aerodynamic pattern. I was impressed. However big lamps need the same, an active cooling job, like a CPU of a computer. LEDs WILL DIE if allowed to thermally runaway past the limit of say.... 212 degrees fahrenheit, and sometimes less than that. Not very hot incomparison to the HID bulb, which will sizzle your finger like a sausage on the grill. Now so there is a lot of shit on the market, and that depends on the price and what not. Good LED arrays aren't cheap. LEDS are for people like me that want a lamp that has zero maintenance (no bulb changes), and low, very low heat in comparison to a 600 watt HID. LED lamps, if built properly, using the latest chips of 3 watts, can make nearly 200 lumens per chip if they are 6000k chips, they appear pure white like a metal halide. I would like to build my own lamp using this tech. because 1 one hundred watt chip is more expensive than 40 three watt chips. Let you know if I do it.


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## DrFever (Oct 16, 2011)

what i mentioned above led are mercury free meaning no ultravoilet light when looking at life in general The SUN not only does it give off ultravoilet light it also gives of radiation 
one would think if your goin to produce lighting that is like the sun for instance a 1000 watt HPS = pretty much same lumens the sun produces on any given day obviously lacking other stuff the sun produces 

i am not a hater of LED but find it useless for the needs of indoor growers what most growers want is fast growth and big yields 
don;t get me wrong in time LED will be up there but also dont ever count out MH or HPS there also spending vast amounts of money to produce a better product 
its bin said that LED do fairly good in veg but are week in flowering 
so why bother really with it when for half the price you can put up a hps and grow both ends of the spectrum and win win


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## virulient (Oct 16, 2011)

/facepalm....


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## ChronicObsession (Oct 16, 2011)

hi drfever, led technology is changing rapidly every year, just like CPUs. the newest rebel chips are using SMT, just 4 diodes to make 10 watts, and because they are surface mount technology, they are radically different from LEDs a few years ago. cool stuff will be here next year


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## collective gardener (Oct 17, 2011)

DrFever said:


> what i mentioned above led are mercury free meaning no ultravoilet light when looking at life in general The SUN not only does it give off ultravoilet light it also gives of radiation
> one would think if your goin to produce lighting that is like the sun for instance a 1000 watt HPS = pretty much same lumens the sun produces on any given day obviously lacking other stuff the sun produces
> 
> i am not a hater of LED but find it useless for the needs of indoor growers what most growers want is fast growth and big yields
> ...


 
Interesting point regarding HID making improvements, too. I remember when the SonAgro first came out in the early 90's. It was the first blue enhanced HPS bulb. Prior to that, we all had to run some MH in the bloom room to round out the spectrum...or get stuck with really unhealthy plants. Now, the Hortilux is standard.

I recently switched to CAP's Digilux HPS's because of fears of damage and premature degradation of my trusted Horti's fired by digital ballasts. I recently tested these bulbs after 7 months of usage. Less than 5% lumen degradation. They're still brighter than a brand new Horti after 7 months. Improvements like these raise the bar for LED. Now that it seems evident that damn near watt for watt is needed for similar performance between LED and HID, the advantages have come down to heat and bulb life. Well, HID bulb life just got a bit longer. I'm a pragmatic businessman. Crunching these numbers is not rocket science. With air cooled hoods settup properly, and 19 seer inverter technology A/C systems, cooling costs for my 14K bloom room are around $300/month in the heat of summer. Cut that in half in the winter. I figure at today's costs it would run me around $25,000 to replace my HID's with LED's. I'd still need some A/C...but very little. I figure I would save arounf $2,000/year in A/C and $1,400/year in bulb replacement costs. So, 7 years to break even. That is, of course, IF I could get the LED's to match the yield and quality of my HiD's for $25,000. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be worth it. But, if I were to get really shrewd and factor in interest on my line of credit needed to make the initial purchse (money _always_ costs money, whether you pay to borrow, or take it out of savings), the payback time would be closer to 9 years. These are not numbers that give me a big ol hardon. 

Now, if the LED's could provide some direct energy savings on my lighting costs, they can become much more attractive very fast. This is why I keep going on about how many watts of LED it would take to replace a 1000 watt HPS. This, to me, is the deciding factor. Watt for watt, they just don't cut it. I'm still a believer that first, the LED gang needs to design and build a light that truly competes with a 1000 HPS (I'm not saying they haven't done this yet), then, they can work on making that light as efficient as possible. 

All this talk has me very curious. I'm about 1 bonghit away from dropping 700 bucks on a 400 watt induction light to see what that can do. I don't think these lights are getting the attention they may deserve. It's a very simple light that can be made very cheaply with some decent production quantities. It would be kind of ironic if induction lights ended up being the future of grow lights. Not many people would have seen that one coming.


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## Clonex (Oct 17, 2011)

Just read last 2 pages and i'm smashing my own head off a concrete floor.....


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## DrFever (Oct 17, 2011)

i would love to see some pics of LED grows that started and like 20 days later pics 
Everytime i see threads on led you see some pic then you never see any updates ????? so one begins to question 

as well i like to note that everyone seems dead on saying that LED doesnt produce heat i for one know that temp are also need for healthy growing plants


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## Beefbisquit (Oct 17, 2011)

DrFever said:


> i would love to see some pics of LED grows that started and like 20 days later pics
> Everytime i see threads on led you see some pic then you never see any updates ????? so one begins to question
> 
> as well i like to note that everyone seems dead on saying that LED doesnt produce heat i for one know that temp are also need for healthy growing plants


Click on my sig.... DERP

Here are 2 plants, 20 days from the day they got dropped into a glass of water, grown under a 100watt Blackstar at first then under a 100watt and a 180watt.


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## collective gardener (Oct 17, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Just read last 2 pages and i'm smashing my own head off a concrete floor.....


 
Clonex...Brother....why the frustration? I hate to see ya get your blood pressure up over a lighting discussion. I have some cured Tahoe OG X Chemdog nugs that could put an end to your anxiety real quick. I'm afraid to say this, but it just may be the best weed I've ever smoked. It's without questions the best Kush I'v ever fucked with. It's as close to "Pure Kush" as I've seen. I'll be posting some pics of my thread in a few days. We need to get some of it into your bong for momments like these.


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## virulient (Oct 17, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Just read last 2 pages and i'm smashing my own head off a concrete floor.....


My sentiments exactly.


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## El Superbeasto (Oct 17, 2011)

You need to look more.

I have seen plenty of CFL, HID, and outdoor grows that appear, and disappear just the same.

You just have to look extra with LED, because it is newer and less people use them because of that. There are good LED journals and videos out there for those willing to look, what do you want, for us to feed the links to you? 

Btw, your plants are nothing to write home about, even as far as HPS goes. 

Research my friend, research. 

I couldn't care less either way, use whatever you want, people THAT ACTUALLY USED BOTH, know the answer, spewing what "I heard", or "my guy says or said", is BS, that is not "proof", buy a panel, buy a good one, and try it out and shut the fuck up with the hearsay already! 

You'd think a "moderator", well I use that term loosely here, but play mod whatever, you'd think you'd have more common sense.

There is a guy on another thread that says CFLs can make 1.5 grams per watt, I guess that is true too huh? 

Again, use whatever light you want. And make yourself look like an ass as much as you want with your smallish HPS plants, most know LEDs are far superior in veg.

Have a nice day 



DrFever said:


> i would love to see some pics of LED grows that started and like 20 days later pics
> Everytime i see threads on led you see some pic then you never see any updates ????? so one begins to question
> 
> as well i like to note that everyone seems dead on saying that LED doesnt produce heat i for one know that temp are also need for healthy growing plants


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## Clonex (Oct 18, 2011)

Beefbisquit said:


> Click on my sig.... DERP
> 
> Here are 2 plants, 20 days from the day they got dropped into a glass of water, grown under a 100watt Blackstar at first then under a 100watt and a 180watt.


Its very nice but not the discussion topic , you are growing stealthy small plants in a box or closet , we already know that led can get results this way your arguing with Drfever who has so far managed to post lovely pictures also but not made any valid points what so ever !!


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## Clonex (Oct 18, 2011)

I am banging my head on the floor because the thread has become "groundhog day" , we are looking for new advancements in LED lighting being used in a commercial sized grow , where the penatration , coverage and flower density issues have been resolved , also it seems we are looking at ways to compare light levels between HID and LED units , as in a form of measurement , and while im on it any other form of lighting that will stack up against hid..... lets get somewhere


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## Clonex (Oct 18, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Clonex...Brother....why the frustration? I hate to see ya get your blood pressure up over a lighting discussion. I have some cured Tahoe OG X Chemdog nugs that could put an end to your anxiety real quick. I'm afraid to say this, but it just may be the best weed I've ever smoked. It's without questions the best Kush I'v ever fucked with. It's as close to "Pure Kush" as I've seen. I'll be posting some pics of my thread in a few days. We need to get some of it into your bong for momments like these.


If you need a second opinion on that Kush ya just holar collective


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## Clonex (Oct 18, 2011)

Collective , a link for your thread please , ty in advance ....


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## WeJuana (Oct 18, 2011)

Check the link in my sig if you want to check out a comparison grow between 3 different LED brands


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## Clonex (Oct 18, 2011)

........................................................


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## Clonex (Oct 18, 2011)

WeJuana said:


> Check the link in my sig if you want to check out a comparison grow between 3 different LED brands


How tall are you planning on growing your plants ?


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## WeJuana (Oct 18, 2011)

Clonex said:


> I am banging my head on the floor because the thread has become "groundhog day"


Maybe because you keep the same mind frame? 

You may want to consider watching the grow and seeing how Blackstar sizes up instead of having a pre-conceived notion. Even if one, two or three grows didn't go well for you or someone you knew, it does not mean the light was at fault.


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## Illumination (Oct 18, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Collective , a link for your thread please , ty in advance ....


 https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/407048-20-000-watt-medical-grow.html

I am not him but there you go


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## Clonex (Oct 18, 2011)

WeJuana said:


> Maybe because you keep the same mind frame?
> 
> You may want to consider watching the grow and seeing how Blackstar sizes up instead of having a pre-conceived notion. Even if one, two or three grows didn't go well for you or someone you knew, it does not mean the light was at fault.


What lol ? are you seriously gonna start insulting me with childish playground jibes ?? Why do you not read the thread??? I have trial'd Blackstars Panels x5 at a cost of over 10k£ - and ppl wonder why im banging my head in frustration , i am running a 6k Hid setup and i took the plunge , my mindset is do not get ripped again or let down my customers , fuck it , can you read anyway ? am i wasting my time ??


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## WeJuana (Oct 18, 2011)

Clonex said:


> What lol ? are you seriously gonna start insulting me with childish playground jibes ?? Why do you not read the thread??? I have trial'd Blackstars Panels x5 at a cost of over 10k£ - and ppl wonder why im banging my head in frustration , i am running a 6k Hid setup and i took the plunge , my mindset is do not get ripped again or let down my customers , fuck it , can you read anyway ? am i wasting my time ??


I did read some of the thread, but I don't have time to sit down and read all 54 pages. How long ago was your trial? 2011 model lights? What is your basis or reason for not liking the lights? 

Give specifics or facts relating to your grow instead of just throwing out what sounds like opinions and I believe a lot more people will be inclined to listen. Your not wasting your time talking to me, I am here to learn and listen so I apologize if you thought I was trying to insult you.. I would like to hear information with a basis though rather than opinions.


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## Clonex (Oct 18, 2011)

WeJuana said:


> I did read some of the thread, but I don't have time to sit down and read all 54 pages. How long ago was your trial? 2011 model lights? What is your basis or reason for not liking the lights?
> 
> Give specifics or facts relating to your grow instead of just throwing out what sounds like opinions and I believe a lot more people will be inclined to listen. Your not wasting your time talking to me, I am here to learn and listen so I apologize if you thought I was trying to insult you.. I would like to hear information with a basis though rather than opinions.


Thats cool no worries , i replaced all 5 x hps with Blackstar led panels in 2008 , all info is in thread , long story short was not enough coverage , light penatration and the quality of marketable bud just wasnt the same....


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## bloatedcraig (Oct 18, 2011)

I am a survayour for an electrical company and part of my job is to survey factories and industrial unit for changing over from hps to led lighting we make some amazing savings for companys, an average led light conversion from a 400hps to a 125 led light cost around £500 a fitting from us and that is not including labour. These fittings are quality, the thing about LED lighting is that if you dont get the heat away from it, it rapidly deterates and goes dull within months, if you get a quality LED light fitting it will fins on it like a computer heat sink to get the heat disipated.

Sorry about any spelling.


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## WeJuana (Oct 18, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Thats cool no worries , i replaced all 5 x hps with Blackstar led panels in 2008 , all info is in thread , long story short was not enough coverage , light penatration and the quality of marketable bud just wasnt the same....


Definitely. Light footprint would be the one area I could see these light companies reaching some major improvement. The Penetrator X series has the best looking coverage footprint out of the 3 I am testing, but it is still only 4x4 area. Personally if I was looking at a massive scaled grow I would likely not use LEDs, at least by themselves.. but for (4) 4x4 tents or something 2 or 3 times that size, I personally think LEDs would be my choice to yield the best quality product I could. The new 2011 lights are noticeably better than the older models, and I can say this from experience.


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## Clonex (Oct 18, 2011)

bloatedcraig said:


> I am a survayour for an electrical company and part of my job is to survey factories and industrial unit for changing over from hps to led lighting we make some amazing savings for companys, an average led light conversion from a 400hps to a 125 led light cost around £500 a fitting from us and that is not including labour. These fittings are quality, the thing about LED lighting is that if you dont get the heat away from it, it rapidly deterates and goes dull within months, if you get a quality LED light fitting it will fins on it like a computer heat sink to get the heat disipated.
> 
> Sorry about any spelling.


This is a different situation as the human eye and our plants use light in different ways lighting up factories etc would be for human use.


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## Clonex (Oct 18, 2011)

WeJuana said:


> Definitely. Light footprint would be the one area I could see these light companies reaching some major improvement. The Penetrator X series has the best looking coverage footprint out of the 3 I am testing, but it is still only 4x4 area. Personally if I was looking at a massive scaled grow I would likely not use LEDs, at least by themselves.. but for (4) 4x4 tents or something 2 or 3 times that size, I personally think LEDs would be my choice to yield the best quality product I could. The new 2011 lights are noticeably better than the older models, and I can say this from experience.


Nice comments , my thoughts entirely , you cant blame me for not wanting to lay out again until i see evidence


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## bloatedcraig (Oct 18, 2011)

Clonex said:


> This is a different situation as the human eye and our plants use light in different ways lighting up factories etc would be for human use.


Ye your correct, i'm not talking about the spectrum of the light and the value of Kelvin's, i'm talking about the quality of the fitting and how the LED deteriates with heat. Most company that we compete with at work can fit LED lighting like us at a fraction of the cost but in 2 or 3 years time they will start to notices the odd led going out, the one's we fit are expensive units but they are more efficent at dispating heat and due to this we give a 10years warranty on every light fitting we install.

So when you buy a LED fitting make sure there is a path for the heat to escape, fan or heat sinks normally.


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## Clonex (Oct 18, 2011)

bloatedcraig said:


> Ye your correct, i'm not talking about the spectrum of the light and the value of Kelvin's, i'm talking about the quality of the fitting and how the LED deteriates with heat. Most company that we compete with at work can fit LED lighting like us at a fraction of the cost but in 2 or 3 years time they will start to notices the odd led going out, the one's we fit are expensive units but they are more efficent at dispating heat and due to this we give a 10years warranty on every light fitting we install.
> 
> So when you buy a LED fitting make sure there is a path for the heat to escape, fan or heat sinks normally.


Ah i see your point , i have noticed that on the new led models some of them have built in fans across the top , others do not and the ones i used certainly did not...


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## DrFever (Oct 18, 2011)

Clonex said:


> Its very nice but not the discussion topic , you are growing stealthy small plants in a box or closet , we already know that led can get results this way your arguing with Drfever who has so far managed to post lovely pictures also but not made any valid points what so ever !!


Theres absolutly no arguing you stated already Led in a box or closet grow that about answers it all when you come down to it 
)
its all about growing Fast big yields who cares i am sure we can fight all night long taking about 100 watt 250 watt led man 
gt into the billion lumen club thats what its all about dude


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## thegreenlegend (Oct 18, 2011)

I am not convinced enough YET to give up my HID's and cant afford to do so until I have the proof that LED's would generate the same yield in the same space and still be cost effective but.....

I do love technology and if I wanted to try LED's on 1 plant is there anything I could pick up for around $100 to try it out?


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## bloatedcraig (Oct 18, 2011)

Give up on LED's for another 2 or 3 years, the technology is coming on leaps and bounds all the time. It is deffinatley the future. I still use HPS though as the saturation just isnt there yet.


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## bloatedcraig (Oct 18, 2011)

thegreenlegend said:


> I am not convinced enough YET to give up my HID's and cant afford to do so until I have the proof that LED's would generate the same yield in the same space and still be cost effective but.....
> 
> I do love technology and if I wanted to try LED's on 1 plant is there anything I could pick up for around $100 to try it out?


Buy a cheap fitting and you will get shite results.


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## DrFever (Oct 18, 2011)

i'll never be convinced ) that LED can compete untill i see a LED thats equivilant to a 1000 watter then i might give it some respect until then heres day 37 pics plants will end up 6 to 7 feet tall harvest time producing anywheres from 5 to 8 oz dry on HID


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## thegreenlegend (Oct 18, 2011)

Wait, $100us is cheap? crap man I veg my mothers under 2 300w flouros that I gave $16 each for. I love the idea of low heat and high efficiency but I'm not gonna give china the rest of my damn country for some over price diodes.


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## thegreenlegend (Oct 18, 2011)

Well the current setup is 4x4' flood tables with 25 clones in each. Zero veg time each tray under 1000w HPS and the yield is between 20-26oz per table. I would like to do this with LED's someday so I say let em' keep tinkerin'.


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## virulient (Oct 18, 2011)

virulient said:


> I feel like we all came to the same conclusion. Until we get more watts, per diode, LED's simply won't provide the depth of coverage (aka penetration) for commercial style grows. So we all agreed on that and this thread died for a few days....then someone comes along and says "I THINK MY LEDS OUT PERFORM A 600W HPS, THEYRE AWESOME-O" and the thread starts allllll over again....
> 
> In conclusion : LED's are very effective when put in the proper environment. Any grow utilizing tall plant that need to bud all the way down to the rockwool almost...simply is NOT the environment for a panel utilizing 3w diode. Regardless of the lens angle.
> 
> ...




Round and round we go. Weeeeeeeeeeee


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## Clonex (Oct 26, 2011)

watta we think of these lill pearls ?

http://www.china-led-manufacturer.com/china/led-component-6w-high-power-led.htm


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## puffenuff (Oct 26, 2011)

Clonex said:


> watta we think of these lill pearls ?
> 
> http://www.china-led-manufacturer.com/china/led-component-6w-high-power-led.htm


Intriguing, but not available in enough wavelengths or in smaller than 120 degree lenses to make a solid performing panel....that is, unless a 6w @ 120+ degree lenses can outperform a 3w @ 60 or 90 degrees...i dont know the answer to that but im definitely interested in finding out, but then we'd still be missing some key wavelengths which I guess could be added using a different maker's diodes.


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## Clonex (Oct 26, 2011)

puffenuff said:


> Intriguing, but not available in enough wavelengths or in smaller than 120 degree lenses to make a solid performing panel....that is, unless a 6w @ 120+ degree lenses can outperform a 3w @ 60 or 90 degrees...i dont know the answer to that but im definitely interested in finding out, but then we'd still be missing some key wavelengths which I guess could be added using a different maker's diodes.


i'm really trying to keep up with led development , digging through all the hype is no easy task ....


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## WeJuana (Oct 29, 2011)

[video=youtube;Get852AKRtE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Get852AKRtE[/video]


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## TedKorzenowskiJR (Nov 2, 2011)

Illumination said:


> Dude chill out...Collective gardener is one of the nicest most helpful people I have seen here in a long time...instead of engaging him in a mental battle for which you are so obnoxiously ill-equipped in comparison by a long shot, why don't you engage him with an inquisitive mine and get that real knowledge one can only get from actually running a 20000 watt grow? Doesn't that seem much more of a win to you than this useless challenge which you have a snowball's chance in hell of winning? Just saying....
> 
> 
> Namaste'


Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change form. Meaning that you will still have to use 1000 watts of leds, to equal the light output of a 1000 watt hps and i also seriously doubt that a 1000watts of LEDs are going to be anywhere near the canopy penetration of that of an HPS. So what is the point? To me these bullshit fixtures seem like light brites repurposed. With these consumer grade made in china fixtures middle men hock to people in high times you are going to get some whispy disappointing buds because they don't provide adequate light, simple as that. I have personally known three people to try these and none of them still use these fixtures because they aren't adequate in light output.

Personally I think that leds are infact great for practical purposes like lighting in the home, but growing ganj inside under lights is not practical and we aren't able to cut corners on the light we're providing, light is number one priority for my garden.

Another thing with LEDs is that everyone is arguing "oh man the wavelengths of light are so much more dialed in for photosynthesis". One big hole in the LED balloon is that many led manufacturers simply dip a translucent led into molten plastic to "color" the output of the led. Kind of like how lighting rigs utilize theatrical jellies to slide over the lights to make them blue or red or yellow or whatever mix of colors they want.

Sorry about starting shit,, my apologies, but I am sick of hearing the back and forth argument that people are going to get the same yields of a 1000 or 600 using a 90watt led.

-ted


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## Clonex (Nov 2, 2011)

TedKorzenowskiJR said:


> Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change form. Meaning that you will still have to use 1000 watts of leds, to equal the light output of a 1000 watt hps and i also seriously doubt that a 1000watts of LEDs are going to be anywhere near the canopy penetration of that of an HPS. So what is the point? To me these bullshit fixtures seem like light brites repurposed. With these consumer grade made in china fixtures middle men hock to people in high times you are going to get some whispy disappointing buds because they don't provide adequate light, simple as that. I have personally known three people to try these and none of them still use these fixtures because they aren't adequate in light output.
> 
> Personally I think that leds are infact great for practical purposes like lighting in the home, but growing ganj inside under lights is not practical and we aren't able to cut corners on the light we're providing, light is number one priority for my garden.
> 
> ...


Well ted , it's because the people using led's on their small/micro grows can actually get decent yields per space they are using , much coverage or penatration is not needed in this case , because people like to stand by their purchase , they get all patriotic , and take all this shit personally , but what they will not seem to get is this , us Larger scale growers would love to use less energy , and not have to worry about heat and ac units etc , even if i had 10k to burn to try and match each 600w hps with led panels , and that would be 10k/600 hps so i would be looking at 50k ...........i think not , Budd density using led's is also an issue.......i guess we can draw good from the fact development can still be done and we live in hope ....


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## DelSlow (Nov 2, 2011)

DrFever said:


> i would love to see some pics of LED grows that started and like 20 days later pics
> Everytime i see threads on led you see some pic then you never see any updates ????? so one begins to question
> 
> as well i like to note that everyone seems dead on saying that LED doesnt produce heat i for one know that temp are also need for healthy growing plants


Found a good thread for all of you non-believers lol 

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/300296-irish-boys-glh-600w-led.html

Hope you don't mind Irish!


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## skunkd0c (Nov 2, 2011)

i have seen lots of nice small plants grown with leds , they have come on along way in the last few years, and are ideal for hipsters who want the latest trend, 
LEDS do have some practical applications for small grows where heat is a problem although cfl T5 and aircool or water cooled hps could also be used when heat is an issue
still they are no match for HID's and all serious growers know this  
if you like spending money and want something to show off about, grab yourself an led panel today! 

peace


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## TedKorzenowskiJR (Nov 2, 2011)

T5s I feel are a better option for small scale grows.


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## DelSlow (Nov 2, 2011)

DelSlow said:


> Found a good thread for all of you non-believers lol
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/300296-irish-boys-glh-600w-led.html
> 
> Hope you don't mind Irish!


Anyone check this grow? 19oz harvest? LED?


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## Clonex (Nov 3, 2011)

DelSlow said:


> Anyone check this grow? 19oz harvest? LED?


In a small space it can be done , it has been covered , he's doing well though , it must be said.


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## trx250x7 (Nov 6, 2011)

http://www.ledgrowlightsales.com/Home/led-growlight-catalog


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## Clonex (Nov 6, 2011)

trx250x7 said:


> http://www.ledgrowlightsales.com/Home/led-growlight-catalog


3w diodes , nothing new


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## BudBaby (Nov 6, 2011)

I use custom made lights from www.plantphotonics.com I have 280 watts actual draw and last grow(my first ever) i got 1.3g per watt and my cab was only just over half full. Im using bubble buckets at the moment but im so happy with these lights that im going organic after this current lot are done 

These lights are expensive but amazing!!

LED cons are interesting on this site also, well worth a look. Richard is a good guy and is only interested in making the very best light available.


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## DrFever (Nov 6, 2011)

DelSlow said:


> Anyone check this grow? 19oz harvest? LED?


Hey Del that looks not bad heres 32 day from flipping to flower 14 pound harvest ) i'll show you in another 35 days what huge buds are all about thats 224 Ounces


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## DelSlow (Nov 6, 2011)

DrFever said:


> Hey Del that looks not bad heres 32 day from flipping to flower 14 pound harvest ) i'll show you in another 35 days what huge buds are all about thats 224 Ounces


Wow! You're expecting 14 pounds? Holy shit, how much 1000 watters are you running?


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## DrFever (Nov 6, 2011)

DelSlow said:


> Wow! You're expecting 14 pounds? Holy shit, how much 1000 watters are you running?


 8000 watts hordilux super blue there MH and HPS in one bulb 300.00 bulb no shit actual done days are 32 from flipping to 12 / 12 got alot of buds already over 1 litre in size there so much penetration the my lower buds are even goin to be huge


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## DelSlow (Nov 6, 2011)

DrFever said:


> 8000 watts hordilux super blue there MH and HPS in one bulb 300.00 bulb no shit actual done days are 32 from flipping to 12 / 12 got alot of buds already over 1 litre in size there so much penetration the my lower buds are even goin to be huge


Damn, I can't wait to see the harvest!


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## Clonex (Nov 6, 2011)

The moderator in here showing off again , even though nothing to do with the thread ? we know you can grow with hid's Dr , but once again you made no point , damn you are tedious.


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## ChroniCDooM (Nov 28, 2011)

LMFAO! Stay away from LED's!!!!! Should be stay away from cheap ass LED's! Not all LED's suck. If you think so then your a close minded fool!! I've only used LED in my one year of growing and have had nothing but killa results!! My light wasn't cheap but it has definitely paid for itself in the last year!! A little over 6 oz. from my last harvest. Which was 2 Ultimate plants. LMFAO @ stay away from LED's!!!!! What a joke! I have a 270W Enhanced Spectrum Supernova LED. Here's what my LED produced last harvest! Yeah stay away from LED's you might end up with plants like this!


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## curly604 (Nov 29, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> LMFAO! Stay away from LED's!!!!! Should be stay away from cheap ass LED's! Not all LED's suck. If you think so then your a close minded fool!! I've only used LED in my one year of growing and have had nothing but killa results!! My light wasn't cheap but it has definitely paid for itself in the last year!! A little over 6 oz. from my last harvest. Which was 2 Ultimate plants. LMFAO @ stay away from LED's!!!!! What a joke! I have a 270W Enhanced Spectrum Supernova LED. Here's what my LED produced last harvest! Yeah stay away from LED's you might end up with plants like this!
> 
> 
> nice work chronic doom very hefty looking girl  so you are happy with your supernova then huh well im glad to hear it brotha what nutes were ya usin if ya dont mind me askin?


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## ChroniCDooM (Nov 29, 2011)

Thanks Curly! Yeah I'm very happy with the Supernova! I've been accepted into a grower feedback program so I'll be testing out a new LED light. It's supposed to be the shit! They are gonna send it to me once I complete my current grow! Oh yeah I grow in coco and use Canna Coco a&b, rhizotonic, Cannazyme, and Atami Bloombastic. Thanks for the props!


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## Tur Tur (Sep 14, 2012)

*



ChroniCDooM said:



LMFAO! Stay away from LED's!!!!! Should be stay away from cheap ass LED's! Not all LED's suck. If you think so then your a close minded fool!! I've only used LED in my one year of growing and have had nothing but killa results!! My light wasn't cheap but it has definitely paid for itself in the last year!! A little over 6 oz. from my last harvest. Which was 2 Ultimate plants. LMFAO @ stay away from LED's!!!!! What a joke! I have a 270W Enhanced Spectrum Supernova LED. Here's what my LED produced last harvest! Yeah stay away from LED's you might end up with plants like this!

Hey Chronicdoom, I have two supernova LEDS and am very pleased with them as well. The LED buds actually tend to be more compact than when I run a HPS side by side. Two things I think could be improved would be to get a longer cord for the ballast, it is only about eight feet from my light and the other is the unit is a little heavey as well(freezes my light rail). I bought mine four years ago so maybe it has been improved since then. Also, I noticed if you have the flowers to close to the light the tips tend to get bleached white, and this happened to multiple strains. I had 4 plants(female seeds c99/ from seed not clone) in 3 gal pots in a two by four tent and yielded 5 ounces of tight compact buds. All in all Im pleased. 1I run them in the hot months to reduce temps and they kick ass. 140gs/270wt= .51 g/wt= success in most peoples books. 

And yes, Ive tried cheap LEDS and they blow.

What is your max canopy/footprint for your supernova?

Click to expand...

​
*


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## curly604 (Sep 15, 2012)

i guess people should stay away from leds if they dont want giant healthy bushes in their tents ........


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