# Abolish private healthcare insurance



## UncleBuck (Nov 11, 2019)

Shot a nail into the bone of my finger a couple months ago

couldn’t pull it out on site. Went home, numbed it with ice, still couldn’t get it

Went to the hospital because bone infections are nasty. They numbed it, pulled it, gave me a tetanus booster and antibiotics

I was in and out in 1.5 hours

guess the total bill folks


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## UncleBuck (Nov 11, 2019)

My mom, a lifelong nurse, said “that’s obscene” when I told her the cost of the bill last night

this afternoon when I got home from work, she said it even better

“you could have flown your entire family to Costa Rica, gotten that taken care of for $90, spent a week on the beach by your hotel, flown back all healed up, and it would have cost much less”

her and my dad are retired but not yet eligible for Medicare. They are risking no insurance for two years until they are eligible because they both call private healthcare insurance a scam

they are right


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## Fogdog (Nov 11, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> View attachment 4420074
> Shot a nail into the bone of my finger a couple months ago
> 
> couldn’t pull it out on site. Went home, numbed it with ice, still couldn’t get it
> ...


Did you leave them the tip?


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## abandonconflict (Nov 11, 2019)

Imagine how expensive it would have been with no coverage at all. At least with private coverage it only cost as much as a trip to Costa Rica. If you were uncovered you could have just gone to an emergency room for free.


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## srh88 (Nov 11, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> My mom, a lifelong nurse, said “that’s obscene” when I told her the cost of the bill last night
> 
> this afternoon when I got home from work, she said it even better
> 
> ...


Better pull yourself up by the bootstraps and blah blah blah. Even with good insurance it still woulda costed ya. Hospital Bill's are insane. At least it wasn't a trim nail. That woulda blew right through your finger lol


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## UncleBuck (Nov 11, 2019)

srh88 said:


> Better pull yourself up by the bootstraps and blah blah blah. Even with good insurance it still woulda costed ya. Hospital Bill's are insane. At least it wasn't a trim nail. That woulda blew right through your finger lol


We have good insurance. I’m only on the hook for a small fraction of the total bill.

the only reason a hospital can charge that much is because insurance will pay them that much. The government won’t

and that is a 15 gauge trim nail. Blew right through the rabbited door jamb I was assembling. Was kind of a freak occurrence


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## hanimmal (Nov 12, 2019)

Your bill is inflated because all of those unpaid emergency room visits get spread out around all of the paid patients. 

We are already paying for universal healthcare, just we are stupidly allowing our expensive emergency rooms to bear the brunt.


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## Jimdamick (Nov 12, 2019)

I tripped while going down my basement stairs trying to get away from my wife a couple of months ago, requiring 3 staples on my head.
That experience cost my insurance company $2100 for 3 fucking stitches.
This is a circle jerk of who can fuck the other one over the most effectively, the hospitals or the insurance companies.
Something has to change, but probably never will in a society that exists on money as a God, fuck morality.
Pure capitalism is what's fucking America now (wealth distribution for one example), and will be it's downfall, because it simply leaves too many people, like the majority, in the ground.


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## schuylaar (Nov 12, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> View attachment 4420074
> Shot a nail into the bone of my finger a couple months ago
> 
> couldn’t pull it out on site. Went home, numbed it with ice, still couldn’t get it
> ...


the hospital has to treat you with or without health insurance Buck.

ad hom fail.

but you are talking microbiology testing which is expensive because you intro'd shite to your bone.

broke my ankle a few months ago and my foot turned black and the size of a melon- i only took three days off because i couldn't afford to stay home from work.

Medicaid picked up the tab and i have no idea what it was..guess i should look it up.

Medicare For All would stabilize the healthcare system.


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## schuylaar (Nov 12, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> Your bill is inflated because all of those unpaid emergency room visits get spread out around all of the paid patients.
> 
> We are already paying for universal healthcare, just we are stupidly allowing our expensive emergency rooms to bear the brunt.


just like car insurance.


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## UncleBuck (Nov 12, 2019)

Cum on guys, guess the amount


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## Dr.Amber Trichome (Nov 12, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Cum on guys, guess the amount


$4,420. 
Awe, sorry to see the injury. That looks so painful!! I hope you have a speedy recovery!


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## blu3bird (Nov 12, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Cum on guys, guess the amount


$14 lol

$10-15K


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## tangerinegreen555 (Nov 12, 2019)

$1800.00

What did I win?


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## tangerinegreen555 (Nov 12, 2019)

You know, every time I've had any medical claim over the years, you get an insurance paper that reads something like this:

Hospital charges 3,000. Dr. charges 1,100. Highmark pays 975 and 580 because hospital and doctor are in medical network and have an agreement to accept this much for these services.

I once asked if I didn't have insurance how would I have to pay? Some say 4,100. Some say they'd accept the medicare/medicaid rate.

The costs are skewed, they overcharge and accept less 'by agreement between Highmark and participating providers'.

They never actually get what they charge.


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## Unclebaldrick (Nov 12, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Cum on guys, guess the amount


$4219.99


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## tangerinegreen555 (Nov 12, 2019)

Unclebaldrick said:


> $4219.99


This is like The Price is Right, no bidding over and tell Bob not to touch your wife.


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## Metasynth (Nov 12, 2019)

Dr.Amber Trichome said:


> $4,420.
> Awe, sorry to see the injury. That looks so painful!! I hope you have a speedy recovery!





Unclebaldrick said:


> $4219.99


$4218


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## captainmorgan (Nov 12, 2019)

$15,000


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## mooray (Nov 12, 2019)

$7000?

Our healthcare expenses are bullshit, but if you've worked with or near any company that makes medical products, you can see where some of it comes from. Someone sues for something and a whole chain of processes are put in place to ensure it never happens again, which is great, but they way they do it adds so much cost. The medical industry is like the most cliche union you can imagine, but on steroids. You need a dozen people and five hundred pages of documentation to make a scalpel 0.010" longer and all that stuff adds a lot of cost and it's done with eeeeeverything.


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## potroastV2 (Nov 12, 2019)

Well, I can't make a guess of the amount of your healthcare costs, because I can only use my personal experience to go by.

For me, it would have cost zero. I have completely socialized healthcare ...

through the VA.

Oh I see you said you needed antibiotics, so I would have had to pay $8 for the prescription.

So my cost would have been $8.


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## potroastV2 (Nov 12, 2019)

InB4 some trump chump spews "it's SOCIALISM! just like in communist Russia!"


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 12, 2019)

I hope your not in too much pain and ya don't have too much down time, get well soon. I can't guess Buck, I get my healthcare for free and if ya had that sticking outta yer finger here in Canada, you would be triaged to the front of the emergency room line. Private for profit health insurance sucks, with a single payer system like in Canada, it is 1/3 the cost per capita and the wealthy could always go to Costa Rica or Mexico for high class private care.


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 12, 2019)

rollitup said:


> InB4 some trump chump spews "it's SOCIALISM! just like in communist Russia!"


Tell em it's called service and this is the reward for that service. They can join if they are smart, physically able and mentally able, as well as stable. They also need to have the guts to lay it on the line if required and put others including their country first. 

Here in Canada veterans are covered by the health care system, but in addition get lots of extra perks (hearing aids, vision care, pharmacare, etc), payments and pensions. The government even pays for veterans pot, if they have PTSD, but there are other treatment options available as well.


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## mooray (Nov 12, 2019)

My favorite is when people say they love their Affordable Care Act and hate Obamacare. I've probably heard that a thousand times.


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## Fixed up (Nov 12, 2019)

tangerinegreen555 said:


> You know, every time I've had any medical claim over the years, you get an insurance paper that reads something like this:
> 
> Hospital charges 3,000. Dr. charges 1,100. Highmark pays 975 and 580 because hospital and doctor are in medical network and have an agreement to accept this much for these services.
> 
> ...


This. 
It might look like your insurance company is paying what it shows but that's not the case at all.


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## UncleBuck (Nov 12, 2019)

Dr.Amber Trichome said:


> $4,420.
> Awe, sorry to see the injury. That looks so painful!! I hope you have a speedy recovery!


Too low

it healed up just fine. Gracias!


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## UncleBuck (Nov 12, 2019)

blu3bird said:


> $14 lol
> 
> $10-15K


Little too high


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## Unclebaldrick (Nov 12, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Little too high


Holy moly. 8k?

You should have just severed it and put it in a container of pickle juice and head down to Costa Rica and bought a used one. Then sell the pickled finger to a museum. Win - win.


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## UncleBuck (Nov 12, 2019)

Unclebaldrick said:


> Holy moly. 8k?


Too low


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## Unclebaldrick (Nov 12, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Too low


The amount over would cover the four star hotel upgrade for your Costa Rican medical visit.


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## UncleBuck (Nov 12, 2019)

$9,233.47


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## MrToad69 (Nov 12, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> My mom, a lifelong nurse, said “that’s obscene” when I told her the cost of the bill last night
> 
> this afternoon when I got home from work, she said it even better
> 
> ...


Buck



I guess I shouldn't be surprised you're on the wrong if the arguement once again!

As you know, I too live in Canada and have the fortune of access to universal health care..I do not have the resources to pay for private care, but I do agree with a two tiered system..and here is why.

Point is: those who have the money are going to pay for private care anyway...you mention Costa Rica for example..The number of Canadian's that go to specialized clinics abroad for joint surgeries or cancer care is significant...those people are going to do it anyway! Why not collect the revenue in Canada for the benefit of all?

By allowing a two tiered system...this is what happens...

1. You reduce the burden on our own system(shorter lines)..Lets say you removed 20% of people out of our already overburdened system...Improvement for everyone!
2. Second all that money generated from those who can afford to pay( profits from procedures)...gets pumped back into the primary system..allowing for more doctors and reduction in the tax burden to Canadians.
3. Lastly, those private facities will themselves create tax revenues that can be reinjected back into Canadian healthcare system...benefitting all!

By proposing all Canadians have to hang on to and follow the little string like a bunch of kids it's absolutely naive...as those rich families already taking their money to facilities in the States such as the Mayo clinic..

But based on your previous contributions I doubt a person like you would understand!!

Regards
Toad


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## UncleBuck (Nov 12, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Buck
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmmm what are the merits of creating second class citizens?


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## mooray (Nov 12, 2019)

Desperation is the number one tool in the predator's toolbox.


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## tangerinegreen555 (Nov 12, 2019)

We generally don't talk to toads. j/s


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## Sir Napsalot (Nov 12, 2019)

My insurance paid ~$224,000 when I had emergency surgery to repair my aorta


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## MrToad69 (Nov 12, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Hmmmm what are the merits of creating second class citizens?


You preconceived notions creates the burden..

Get a service for free...that fine, be patient and wait line...If you the fortune of wealth...great...just know that your money is going to go towards the guy who is getting his service for free...and because you've chosen to pay...you make free guys service faster..It benefits everyone!!

Rich people are going to pay for those services anyway...whether they hire a private doctor or fly to a different country to do...

Tell me this...You just paid thousands of dollar to have healthcare fix you up.right?.Let say a rich person came into the hospital right after you and said...Hey buddy...I'll cover all of your medical bills if you just let me go ahead of you...Wouldn't you do it...or would you respond and say no..I don't want to feel like a second class citizen?
Toad


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## MrToad69 (Nov 12, 2019)

tangerinegreen555 said:


> We generally don't talk to toads. j/s
> 
> View attachment 4420247


I guess it depends on if the toad has a point?


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## UncleBuck (Nov 12, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> You preconceived notions creates the burden..
> 
> Get a service for free...that fine, be patient and wait line...If you the fortune of wealth...great...just know that your money is going to go towards the guy who is getting his service for free...and because you've chosen to pay...you make free guys service faster..It benefits everyone!!
> 
> ...


Still not seeing the merits of making posts into second class citizens, despite your very compelling views borne of the purest cuckoldry I’ve ever witnessed


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## tangerinegreen555 (Nov 12, 2019)

Sir Napsalot said:


> My insurance paid ~$224,000 when I had emergency surgery to repair my aorta


Good thing Obamacare removed that $1,000,000 limit!

Thanks Obama, now you can get aorta surgery, a kidney transplant and a new liver without worrying too much about money.


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## MrToad69 (Nov 12, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Still not seeing the merits of making posts into second class citizens, despite your very compelling views borne of the purest cuckoldry I’ve ever witnessed


Buck, from our precious chats...I dont expect you to understand.."cut off your nose to spite your face"..

By creating two two tier..you shift some of the financial burden to the wealthy as well as reduce wait times for all..

But since you're the only one sitting in the wait room (with pride) with an overburdened line ups waiting for a free service...rather than accepting the equivalent of several months in wages from for your spot...Such is life!


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## mooray (Nov 12, 2019)

If he's paying taxes that foot the bill, he's paying for the service though, yes?


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## UncleBuck (Nov 12, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Buck, from our precious chats...I dont expect you to understand.."cut off your nose to spite your face"..
> 
> By creating two two tier..you shift some of the financial burden to the wealthy as well as reduce wait times for all..
> 
> But since you're the only one sitting in the wait room (with pride) with an overburdened line ups waiting for a free service...rather than accepting the equivalent of several months in wages from for your spot...Such is life!


What’s your favorite way to pass the time when the bull is pleasuring your wife


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## mooray (Nov 12, 2019)

That stuff is pointless and trashy.


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## MrToad69 (Nov 12, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> What’s your favorite way to pass the time when the bull is pleasuring your wife


Buck

You're amusing..Ive seen your comments from other boards referring to others wives as whores...
It's fun to watch your Little brain grind away..trying to find something intelligent to say...and thats all you can come up with...lol

Fortunately, Darwin's theories catch up with guys like you!


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## MrToad69 (Nov 12, 2019)

mooray said:


> If he's paying taxes that foot the bill, he's paying for the service though, yes?


Mooray
No question, were all paying into the system..which is why it works..so how do we speed it up and reduce the cost for Canadians?
There is an obvious stigma here..I totally understand...this is a worthy and important topic too...

Question...Should we be restricting Canadians from flying to the Mayo clinic in the US for treatment?


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## mooray (Nov 12, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Mooray
> No question, were all paying into the system..which is why it works..so how do we speed it up and reduce the cost for Canadians?
> There is an obvious stigma here..I totally understand...this is a worthy and important topic too...
> 
> Question...Should we be restricting Canadians from flying to the Mayo clinic in the US for treatment?


I enjoy the topic also and it's not an easy one. If it's anything like the system here, it's severely bloated and could use some trimming of the fat. I think of it like working on a car; there are tons of skilled mechanics making $20/hr that can do just as good of a job with most repair as the $60/hr BMW tech and you need to be smart enough to know exactly when you can and can't use the cheaper guy. And there are plenty of times where the $3 china socket works every bit as well as the $50 snap-on. There needs to be a new path created that allows people to choose a cheaper route with fewer restrictions and of course they would have to accept a degree of risk that comes with it.


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## tangerinegreen555 (Nov 12, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Question...Should we be restricting Canadians from flying to the Mayo clinic in the US for treatment?


Only when you force them to vacation on Lake Erie instead of flying to Hawaii.

What kind of stupid question was that?

People can do what ever they want with their extra money.

It reflects more on the rep of the Mayo clinic than it does the health system. Do you expect every hospital to be as good as the Mayo Clinic?


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## Dr.Amber Trichome (Nov 12, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> $9,233.47


That is insane . 
So if Pinhead decided to get all his nails removed, which is approximately 400 nails , that would cost around
$3,600,000 . That is an absolute outrage! I can see why he remains in Hell, it’s too fucking expensive to leave.


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## hanimmal (Nov 12, 2019)

Depending on the antibiotics, it could get really expensive. Some nasty bacteria out there.


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## potroastV2 (Nov 12, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Buck, from our precious chats...I dont expect you to understand.."cut off your nose to spite your face"..
> 
> By creating two two tier..you shift some of the financial burden to the wealthy as well as reduce wait times for all..
> 
> But since you're the only one sitting in the wait room (with pride) with an overburdened line ups waiting for a free service...rather than accepting the equivalent of several months in wages from for your spot...Such is life!



Jeez, you really are a meat head, huh?


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## MrToad69 (Nov 12, 2019)

Tangerine...

That's my point EXACTLY!! It's ridiculous..

We have a two tiered system already! We're just forcing people to fly elsewhere to get it...
Why not keep it here in Canada where everyone benefits?

By having private care here in Canada it becomes readily available to those who want it in a timely fashion...

We keep the doctors who've received the benefit of a subsidized education here in Canada...working here in Canada

Benefit..We reduce wait times that we presently have in the system

Private care will provide additional taxes that can be injected into the public system, that will help reduce the costs and burden on our healthcare

Toad


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 12, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> You preconceived notions creates the burden..
> 
> Get a service for free...that fine, be patient and wait line...If you the fortune of wealth...great...just know that your money is going to go towards the guy who is getting his service for free...and because you've chosen to pay...you make free guys service faster..It benefits everyone!!
> 
> ...


How about we just tax the rich person to pay for a basic human right, healthcare. We have a single payer healthcare system in Canada and the vast majority of the citizens are happy with it, you can even get insurance to pay for extra perks. Travel abroad is another option the wealthy have and we don't need to have our health care system distorted by greed and profit. Politicians and their families should be required to use the Canadian healthcare system unless extreme circumstances deem otherwise, if not they would end up in the private system and everybody's healthcare would suffer. Most Canadians are like me, we vehemently disagree with your perspective and ideology, 91% of Canadians prefer their healthcare system, except for a few brainwashed libertarians, mostly in Alberta.

Buck has sharply pointed out some flaws in you and your arguments, he is intelligent and perceptive and can see things in your posts that you are blind to because of your biases. He seems to post from his phone while working as a contractor and independent businessman and his comments are brief and to the point, sometimes that point is a little too sharp for some. Calling Buck "an absolute idiot" is an escalation, Buck throws people off guard to reveal their true intentions, logical and personal flaws. You wanted to keep it civil, so lead by example, being civil does not mean you can't piss someone off to get below the veneer of civility and to the core of their true motives. Libertarianism is only a rationalization for personal greed and an antisocial ideology, no different than fascism and as practical in economic terms as Lenin's version of communism. Remember, Buck is an actual capitalist, you are an employee, a bean counter.

I more or less consider this topic to be within the realm of American domestic business and most Canadians can only extol the virtues of our system and hope they try to emulate it in some way.


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## MrToad69 (Nov 12, 2019)

DIY-HP-LED said:


> How about we just tax the rich person to pay for a basic human right, healthcare. We have a single payer healthcare system in Canada and the vast majority of the citizens are happy with it, you can even get insurance to pay for extra perks. Travel abroad is another option the wealthy have and we don't need to have our health care system distorted by greed and profit. Politicians and their families should be required to use the Canadian healthcare system unless extreme circumstances deem otherwise, if not they would end up in the private system and everybody's healthcare would suffer. Most Canadians are like me, we vehemently disagree with your perspective and ideology, 91% of Canadians prefer their healthcare system, except for a few brainwashed libertarians mostly in Alberta.
> 
> Buck has sharply pointed out some flaws in you and your arguments, he is intelligent and perceptive and can see things in your posts that you are blind to because of your biases. He seems to post from his phone while working as a contractor and independent businessman and his comments are brief and to the point, sometimes that point is a little to sharp for some. Calling Buck "an absolute idiot" is an escalation, Buck throws people off guard to reveal their true intentions, logical flaws and personal flaws. You wanted to keep it civil, so lead by example, being civil does not mean you can't piss someone off to get below the veneer of civility and to the core of their true motives. Libertarianism is only a rationalization for personal greed and an antisocial ideology, no different than fascism and as practical in economic terms as Lenin's version of communism. Remember, Buck is an actual capitalist, you are an employee, a bean counter.
> 
> I more or less consider this topic to be within the realm of American domestic business and most Canadians can only extol the virtues of our system and hope they try to emulate it in some way.


DIY..
You've seen the conversations between Buck and I.in the past..and you call my comments an escalation? Wow..

The rich are already taxed higher in Canada through a tiered taxation system...figure we should ramp that up? See what happened when France began to did that? Tax the rich? They simply moved out of the country..think of the Irving's going offshore, oil guy Murray Edward's to the UK..a lot of people who are affluent dont mind paying extra for all...but like business...If you impose anymore, if a blatant gouge happens..people leave...and when the public begins the think their entitled to the profits of business owners...things deteriorate. Business owners take a risk, and also employ people..but bare the burden if it goes south..

DIY..You have a history of blanket statements short on fact..mistakenly claiming Quebec with 25% of the population had the numbers..so they deserve 51% of the transfer payments? Or the fact that oil and gas subsidies you were talking about were in the US and not in Alberta, as per our discussion?

What are those valid points you claimed buck was making so we can discuss?


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 12, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> You've seen the conversations between Buck and I.in the past..and you call my comments an escalation?


You came on to his thread carrying the baggage of retaliation and an ideology that is unpopular in your own country and among sensible people everywhere. Buck can trade insults with the best of them or argue into the ground with facts and figures. He drew you out and you snowflaked out.



MrToad69 said:


> The rich are already taxed higher in Canada through a tiered taxation system...figure we should ramp that up? See what happened when France began to did that? Tax the rich? They simply moved out of the country..think of the Irving's going offshore, oil guy Murray Edward's to the UK..a lot of people who are affluent dont mind paying extra for all...but like business...If you impose anymore, if a blatant gouge happens..people leave..


Taxation in Canada is based on residency not citizenship and I would like to see that change. Political change in America could preclude the option of running out on your country, as so many greed heads have done, sometimes with the government's help, like the Bronfman's. If the rich wanna leave there should be a very steep exit tax and no option for return, even for a visit, persona non grata statues I say.



MrToad69 said:


> DIY..You have a history of blanket statements short on fact..mistakenly claiming Quebec with 25% of the population had the numbers..so they deserve 51% of the transfer payments?


This is the third time your anti french bigotry has shown through and You appear to think that giving money to the "other" is somehow a waste. Quebecers are Canadian citizens and entitled to transfer payments like Maritimers and there is and agreed upon constitutional formula for calculating these payments, argue with the experts, not me


MrToad69 said:


> Or the fact that oil and gas subsidies you were talking about were in the US and not in Alberta, as per our discussion?


I did not say we had those subsidies in Canada, the US has them, though the oil companies in Alberta are wrecking the environment and by not policing them properly and imposing the environmental costs on them they are in effect subsidized.



MrToad69 said:


> What are those valid points you claimed buck was making so we can discuss?


He started this thread to tell a personal story about a workplace injury and the cost of treatment in the states, you came on here spouting ideology and calling him an idiot. What about the creation of second class citizens? Are you an oil and gas "executive with lots of perks and a big paycheck? You must be wealthy to support such a greed driven agenda, no working person in their right mind could support such an idea as a two tier medical system. If you want private care nobody is stopping you from jumping on a plane and seeking it elsewhere, there are places where you can even see the poor sick people with out healthcare dying on the streets from your private luxury hospital room.

Buck cut to the point of your arguments in a sentence or two, just like he cut right to your personal flaws. Learn to speak French and appreciate our rich and diverse cultural heritage, don't worry about Quebec so much, they use your money to enjoy life.


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## UncleBuck (Nov 12, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Buck
> 
> You're amusing..Ive seen your comments from other boards referring to others wives as whores...
> It's fun to watch your Little brain grind away..trying to find something intelligent to say...and thats all you can come up with...lol
> ...


I never said your wife is a whore

she fucks every man she can for free


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## MrToad69 (Nov 12, 2019)

DIY-HP-LED said:


> You came on to his thread carrying the baggage of retaliation and an ideology that is unpopular in your own country and among sensible people everywhere. Buck can trade insults with the best of them or argue into the ground with facts and figures. He drew you out and you snowflaked out.
> 
> 
> Taxation in Canada is based on residency not citizenship and I would like to see that change. Political change in America could preclude the option of running out on your country, as so many greed heads have done, sometimes with the government's help, like the Bronfman's. If the rich wanna leave there should be a very steep exit tax and no option for return, even for a visit, persona non grata statues I say.
> ...


DIY
Its become pretty clear that your full of fluff and idealism very little tangible substance for support..kinda like some 30 year old kid living
in his parents basement and sponging off them; coming up with every excuse as to why things are as they are without trying to help improve the situation for everyone..

DIY..we have a health system that you and I both benefit from because of tax revenue...make no mistake..not sunshine and lollipops as some would suggest..69% of small business employs of Canadians..you gonna tax the crap out of those who provide the foundation for those funds?

Buck started a "public" thread stating point blank to "Abolish public Health care"..why didnt he just inbox you for that cozy little conversation? You throw it in a public forum..becomes open mike for opinions..no?
Healthcare..greed? Was that what I was proposing?..not at all..money generated from those who can afford goes back into system to support primary..qui twisting words.

DIY..you and I both benefit from our health system..one that is seriously strained...yet you have no concerns..as long as you're covered..what about the Dr working a hundred hours a week..? Thank gawd he/she is not relying on you for ideas to improve the system..as it seems your content that they work under status quo.

Re:Quebec...Are you from Quebec? It's amazing...your lack of fairness...Here you are passing out the tax revenues generated for all Canadians...sputtering out BS of how Quebec deserves that money...and not once have you acknowledged...you dont have a clue as to the size of Quebec or how much they collect...Instead you twist it into some accusation of ethnic bias? (you should have been on OJ Simpson's defense team)...heck, any other Province and I'd be saying the same thing..but it's you fabricating crap to deflect from the real issues..
I admire you looking for you buddy..but you and I are different that way..I guess Im a little surprised here too as seems like there are some ladies on this thread..so when Bucks best rebuttal involves animals and wives or wives being whores...and you remain mum..without calling him out?..
Well..judge for yourself...and the rollitup moderator thinks thats cool because it was a friend?

Buck cut to my personal flaws? In between all the swears and insults? I didnt get that.. what were my flaws?

Buck lacks class..and conducts himself in a manner that no one should condone..(mentioning women are whores? Women doing animals?) like a bully..and yet you and the moderator turn a blind eye and say..Oh thats just Buck!!

...so please save your pious crap for someone else


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 12, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> DIY
> Its become pretty clear that your full of fluff and idealism very little tangible substance for support..kinda like some 30 year old kid living
> in his parents basement and sponging off them; coming up with every excuse as to why things are as they are without trying to help improve the situation for everyone..
> 
> ...


Woah buddy let’s keep it civil


----------



## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 12, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Its become pretty clear that your full of fluff and idealism very little tangible substance for support..kinda like some 30 year old kid living
> in his parents basement and sponging off them; coming up with every excuse as to why things are as they are without trying to help improve the situation for everyone..


I'm 65 and retired at 57, but could have went at 55 if I had wanted to, I've worked since I was 16 years old and spent many school nights and week ends on the 4-12 shift. I also served my country for 2 years in the reserve forces at that time as well. Over the course my working career in Moncton NB and Winnipeg I ran a couple of small businesses on the side.

While in Winnipeg I took up a serious Buddhist meditation practice and my personal philosophy is to improve the world, do so one heart and mind at a time, start with yourself first though.


MrToad69 said:


> DIY..we have a health system that you and I both benefit from because of tax revenue...make no mistake..not sunshine and lollipops as some would suggest..69% of small business employs of Canadians..you gonna tax the crap out of those who provide the foundation for those funds?


I vote liberal, if I wanted to do that I'd vote NDP, small business is not the problem, political corruption is, my favorite economist is Adam Smith you should read him and not just the right wing filtered bullshit they write about him.


MrToad69 said:


> Buck started a "public" thread stating point blank to "Abolish public Health care"..why didnt he just inbox you for that cozy little conversation? You throw it in a public forum..becomes open mike for opinions..no?


The thread started with a picture of a very painful hand injury, a nail in his finger and how much it cost to have a corrupt private healthcare system treat it. My first post on the thread was an expression of concern and compassion, yours was to call him an idiot. Personal flaws again, lack of empathy yet again, hyper sensitivity to criticism and an inability to move on.

*The thread title is: abolish-private-healthcare-insurance* and I think it's a great idea for America. BTW 30% of Canadian health care is already provided by private insurance, I have it myself as part of my retirement package.

Take up a practice to some gain emotional strength and psychological flexibility.

There is no "moderator here, there is an ADMIN who has been here for many years and has seen it all, he follows a set rules and comments from time to time like any other member. Like I said before, Buck has done a good job of stripping away the veneer of civility to reveal the inner person. I personally know several people who lived in Alberta who could be joined at the hip with you ideologically. The big thing a few years ago was climate change denial and it still is in Alberta, but most of them have realized that ship has sailed.

Time to go have a meditation sit and put this shit in the past and you should as well, we don't agree on much.
Good night Toad


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## MrToad69 (Nov 12, 2019)

DIY-HP-LED said:


> I'm 65 and retired at 57, but could have went at 55 if I had wanted to, I've worked since I was 16 years old and spent many school nights and week ends on the 4-12 shift. I also served my country for 2 years in the reserve forces at that time as well. Over the course my working career in Moncton NB and Winnipeg I ran a couple of small businesses on the side.
> 
> While in Winnipeg I took up a serious Buddhist meditation practice and my personal philosophy is to improve the world, do so one heart and mind at a time, start with yourself first though.
> 
> ...


DIY
You said...

******"If the rich want to leave (Canada), there should be a very steep exit tax with no chance to return"*****

I would like people on this board to honestly to either agree or disagree with that statement? (Anyone care to comment, Im particularly interested in opinions from our good neighbours to the South?)

You're seriously a borderline communist!!! To reiterate...You want people, who have worked all their lives and paid taxes on all those saving already...to pay an exit tax to move away just because they want to live elsewhere...

You talk of greed..but it's apparent that its you who are greedy...Most people work well into their 60's and 70's and you punched out substantially sooner...yet expect the social system to support you! You don't care about the unity of Canada, your comcerned about how the hell are you gonna pay for your healthcare? You have no favourable feelings towards Albertan's..so why stick together?

You're on the other side of the equation... you are the one drawing rather than contributing to the social programs in Canada...So it pretty easy to say..yah..be cool..All good! Chill man! If those social programs relied on money from you...opinions would change

You sit there, meditate and point fingers trying to understand why you think people are upset..and you honestly haven't the foggiest idea!!

You worked part time (55)...and are now sucking resources out of the system like you've earned it...You of all people should have a better understanding of people and empathy..yet shallow of any real understanding or empathy..you're a hypocrite!

Now back to that question...(we'll see how honest our little board is.)..Who thinks a-person should have to pay a rather hefty departure tax from moving from their country of origin to elsewhere? (Keeping in mind all personal savings have already been taxed, and Retirememt savings plans are automatically taxed when divested here in Canada)

Toad


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 12, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> DIY
> You said...
> 
> ******"If the rich want to leave (Canada), there should be a very steep exit tax with no chance to return"*****
> ...


I retired with a full pension from a major corporation, it's called paying your dues Toad and one of the advantages of union membership. Moving money out of the country is taxable under current Canadian law, the Bronfmans avoided this tax a few years back. The richest 1% own the vast majority of the wealth in Canada and the USA, if they don't pay their fair share the rest of us do. As for being a commie, I'm a fan of Adam Smith remember? The whole of Smith, not just the"hidden hand". If you wanna take your wealth out of Canada to avoid taxes you should lose your citizenship (after you become a citizen of another country) and a good chunk of your wealth, but that's up to parliament. I'm a left leaning liberal, not NDP, though socialism works, we see it all around us.


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## MrToad69 (Nov 12, 2019)

DIY-HP-LED said:


> I retired with a full pension from a major corporation, it's called paying your dues Toad and one of the advantages of union membership. Moving money out of the country is taxable under current Canadian law, the Bronfmans avoided this tax a few years back. The richest 1% own the vast majority of the wealth in Canada and the USA, if they don't pay their fair share the rest of us do. As for being a commie, I'm a fan of Adam Smith remember? The whole of Smith, not just the"hidden hand". If you wanna take your wealth out of Canada to avoid taxes you should lose your citizenship (after you become a citizen of another country) and a good chunk of your wealth, but that's up to parliament. I'm a left leaning liberal, not NDP, though socialism works, we see it all around us.


You still didn't answer...but rather continue to dance around with generalizations...now you're talking about the 1% (representing none on this board). You said "the rich"(Who is that?).How about snowbirds who are sick of the snow?
Since you're not necessarily part of the haves..it very easy for you to go about divy'ing up what they've made...Im guessing your political views are because you're more on the receiving end...as opposed to being an altruistic Warren Buffet type..It's always easier to give money away when its not yours...so dont try to pretend you know how people feel..or what people should be entitled to beyond healthcare and education.


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## UncleBuck (Nov 12, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> You still didn't answer...but rather continue to dance around with generalizations...now you're talking about the 1% (representing none on this board). You said "the rich"(Who is that?).How about snowbirds who are sick of the snow?
> Since you're not necessarily part of the haves..it very easy for you to go about divy'ing up what they've made...Im guessing your political views are because you're more on the receiving end...as opposed to being an altruistic Warren Buffet type..It's always easier to give money away when its not yours...so dont try to pretend you know how people feel..or what people should be entitled to beyond healthcare and education.


Thanks for admitting you’re not entitled to that oil humping job you’re crying about losing


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## MrToad69 (Nov 12, 2019)

Buck..
You may have started this thread..but your only contribution has been to whine and show off your self inflicted wound like some dumb jock!
Good job Ace!


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## Fogdog (Nov 12, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> DIY
> You said...
> 
> ******"If the rich want to leave (Canada), there should be a very steep exit tax with no chance to return"*****
> ...


Hey Toad.

Is stripping away the top layers of thousands of hectares of arboreal forest then restoring the lands to a healthy state profitable without government subsidies and tax breaks to the corporations and wealthy people who control them? Just asking because even industry executives in Alberta are saying they can't compete for capital investments in fields to south of them in the US. The US subsidizes those mining operations to the detriment of our environment. Personally, I oppose subsidizing any fossil fuel development. Maybe both Canadian and US oil companies should refuse corporate welfare. 

In any case, regarding your question. The wealthy are doing just fine. They should receive no corporate welfare and should pay taxes according to their ability to pay taxes. If they want to leave the country, I see no reason why Canada should not simply take back money they gained through lobbying for subsidies and tax breaks. Personally, I'd say good riddance and any business they want to conduct with Canada and Canadians after they leave should be taxed at the appropriate level.


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## UncleBuck (Nov 12, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Buck..
> You may have started this thread..but your only contribution has been to whine and show off your self inflicted wound like some dumb jock!
> Good job Ace!


It’s pretty simple and ive said it all already

private, for profit, capitalist healthcare insurance is a scam

we need to abolish it

now pipe down. Your wife doesn’t want your ruckus in the guest bedroom disturbing her bulls peaceful rest


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## Dr.Amber Trichome (Nov 14, 2019)

Canadian healthcare does not include dental?
My dental insurance offered through my employer is $20 a month and includes 2 cleanings.
At any rate dental work can be super expensive. I found this HuffPost article on a town just south of the USA border that is like a dental city with inexpensive costs. Thought I would pass it along if you or your family or friends need a lot of dental work but can’t afford it, this might be helpful.










Welcome to Molar City, Mexico, The Dental Mecca America’s Health Care Costs Built


A tiny border town is home to hundreds of dentists and is a major destination for Americans seeking big savings on dental care.




www.huffpost.com


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## potroastV2 (Nov 14, 2019)

Dr.Amber Trichome said:


> Canadian healthcare does not include dental?
> My dental insurance offered through my employer is $20 a month and includes 2 cleanings.
> At any rate dental work can be super expensive. I found this HuffPost article on a town just south of the USA border that is like a dental city with inexpensive costs. Thought I would pass it along if you or your family or friends need a lot of dental work but can’t afford it, this might be helpful.
> 
> ...



I've been going to a dentist in Tijuana for 25 years, however it's only a 30 minute drive for me. My costs have always been one-third of what they would be in the US, and I consider the dental care to be better. The dentist does not use a dental assistant, he uses a dentist to assist him, so I always have two dentists next to my chair.


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## rkymtnman (Nov 14, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Cum on guys


what i do on tuesday nites isn't any of your business, young man.


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## rkymtnman (Nov 14, 2019)

rollitup said:


> I've been going to a dentist in Tijuana for 25 years, however it's only a 30 minute drive for me. My costs have always been one-third of what they would be in the US, and I consider the dental care to be better. The dentist does not use a dental assistant, he uses a dentist to assist him, so I always have two dentists next to my chair.


were headed to san diego for spring break. my wife's friend is hopefully going to take us to a soccer game in Tijuana if they have a home game while we are there.


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## MrToad69 (Nov 14, 2019)

Dr.Amberfriends need a lot of dental work but can’t afford it said:


> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/welcome-to-molar-city-mexico-the-dental-mecca-americas-health-care-costs-built_n_5dc5772ae4b0fcfb7
> 
> 
> 
> ...





DIY-HP-LED said:


> You came on to his thread carrying the baggage of retaliation and an ideology that is unpopular in your own country and among sensible people everywhere. Buck can trade insults with the best of them or argue into the ground with facts and figures. He drew you out and you snowflaked out.
> 
> 
> Taxation in Canada is based on residency not citizenship and I would like to see that change. Political change in America could preclude the option of running out on your country, as so many greed heads have done, sometimes with the government's help, like the Bronfman's. If the rich wanna leave there should be a very steep exit tax and no option for return, even for a visit, persona non grata statues I say.
> ...


DIY

Just came out today specifically addressing your Robinhood views in a contemporary environment...

https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fca.finance.yahoo.com%2Fnews%2Ffrance-tried-soaking-rich-didn-103027148.html%3Fsoc_src%3Dcommunity%26soc_trk%3Dma&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C2afb46d0dae94e6e3cb208d7697b0f2a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637093849561452315&amp;sdata=tutYPZajZ%2BgtKLDv6MPIQC4ETEffKqKhPLGdDC%2FbkRE%3D&amp;reserved=0


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## UncleBuck (Nov 14, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> DIY
> 
> Just came out today specifically addressing your Robinhood views in a contemporary environment...
> 
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fca.finance.yahoo.com%2Fnews%2Ffrance-tried-soaking-rich-didn-103027148.html%3Fsoc_src%3Dcommunity%26soc_trk%3Dma&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C2afb46d0dae94e6e3cb208d7697b0f2a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637093849561452315&amp;sdata=tutYPZajZ%2BgtKLDv6MPIQC4ETEffKqKhPLGdDC%2FbkRE%3D&amp;reserved=0


You even spam links like a boomer


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## MrToad69 (Nov 14, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> You even spam links like a boomer


Your thumb better there..sport?


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 14, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> $9,233.47


wow.....just wow..
I could of called an ambulance and been takin to hospital, had it pulled out and maybe a nice sandwich for $0. Love Aussie medicare.


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## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 14, 2019)

How do you transition from private to public? How many jobs are at stake, how would the retirement packages manage? 

I want universal healthcare, but how do you achieve it?


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## hanimmal (Nov 15, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> How do you transition from private to public? How many jobs are at stake, how would the retirement packages manage?
> 
> I want universal healthcare, but how do you achieve it?


I would like to see a system that the government of each state purchases insurance (from private insurers) for the entire population of that state that can be used across the entire states health system. It would be easy for the government to buy from multiple insurers who can bid for groups directly from a government office who would have oversight and the hospitals could get paid by the private insurance companies. Doctors would determine the necessary care, and patients would choose the hospitals/doctors of their choice.


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## Budley Doright (Nov 15, 2019)

Just had my appointment with the Urologist yesterday after throwing a clot into my kidney in February. 10 month wait....... not bad lol.


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 15, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> DIY
> 
> Just came out today specifically addressing your Robinhood views in a contemporary environment...
> 
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fca.finance.yahoo.com%2Fnews%2Ffrance-tried-soaking-rich-didn-103027148.html%3Fsoc_src%3Dcommunity%26soc_trk%3Dma&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C2afb46d0dae94e6e3cb208d7697b0f2a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637093849561452315&amp;sdata=tutYPZajZ%2BgtKLDv6MPIQC4ETEffKqKhPLGdDC%2FbkRE%3D&amp;reserved=0


Another "Robinhood", though this one is academically qualified to address your concerns.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Robert Reich: 12 Myths About Taxing the Rich*


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## hanimmal (Nov 15, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> Just had my appointment with the Urologist yesterday after throwing a clot into my kidney in February. 10 month wait....... not bad lol.


I have no clue what that means really, but even still I hope you are not in pain and everything turns out ok.


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## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 15, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> I would like to see a system that the government of each state purchases insurance (from private insurers) for the entire population of that state that can be used across the entire states health system. It would be easy for the government to buy from multiple insurers who can bid for groups directly from a government office who would have oversight and the hospitals could get paid by the private insurance companies. Doctors would determine the necessary care, and patients would choose the hospitals/doctors of their choice.


I'd like to see us tax the rich to buy out the insurance companies ect, and then go universal. A government hospital or medical facility per capita. "Emeninant domain" the existing thriving facilities and maintain existing staff as government employees. 

Investments & Wall Street would be made whole by the people that benefit the most (taxing rich to pay themselves) securing retirement for majority middle class. Would maintain most jobs. 

Federal sales tax on items over $100k @ 2%? But otherwise increase income tax on the wealthy as well as implement a wealth tax to fund, cut Medicare & medicaid because they won't be needed. Regulate pharmaceutical drug magins to a max %. Shorten drug patent durations.


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## hanimmal (Nov 15, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> Regulate pharmaceutical drug magins to a max %. Shorten drug patent durations.


I think the hardest part is how do you pay for the large % of drug studies that don't pan out. The large % gains on the drugs that make it mostly are reinvested back into studies (pharmacist/scientists/technology/materials/buildings, on and on). That reinvestment is why we have the medicines we do today, and need to keep up with the new strains of bacteria.


----------



## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 15, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> I think the hardest part is how do you pay for the large % of drug studies that don't pan out. The large % gains on the drugs that make it mostly are reinvested back into studies (pharmacist/scientists/technology/materials/buildings, on and on). That reinvestment is why we have the medicines we do today, and need to keep up with the new strains of bacteria.


Martin. Skrelli.


----------



## MrToad69 (Nov 15, 2019)

DIY-HP-LED said:


> Another "Robinhood", though this one is academically qualified to address your concerns.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Robert Reich: 12 Myths About Taxing the Rich*


DIY
Seriously?? Thats what you've come up with, some die hard lefty to defend the position of a tax grab? and some of those myths, he might as well be talking to children..

He references Elizabeth Warren over and over...Convenient, you dont mention the multitude of individuals and academics who say Warren's policies would destroy the economy. Heck, Alberta even tried that a few years ago under premier Stelmach..It bumped royalty O&G companies had to pay...and guess what Oil and Gas drilling in Alberta deopped like a stone as that investment moved to British Columbia and Saskatchewan! What you and buddy on the video don't seem to get is that money, although digital and tracked is still mobile.


You already stated the left side of the Liberal political spectrum here in Canada..equivalent to the Far left Democrats down south..Ive mention that borderline communist..and based on your admissions, indicate the same...

You yourself propose a two tiered system...one that penalizes those who have taken risks and succeeded financially..and the more successful you've become.the bigger the gouge.

You reference fluff and BS from dusty text books and academic theorists...just that...fluff!

I gave you the raw reality of what has happened when a country blatantly changes the rules to steal money from individuals...France tried it multiple times and each time it failed...

You stated your on the left side of the spectrum of the socialist party here...and anyone understanding politics should be able to decipher your intent..

You've actually changed my mind..One that once supported the good of all Canadians..If given the chance I'd now vote to separate..

Why would anyone want to put their tax dollars into a common pool to share with people who think of you with such distain?


----------



## MrToad69 (Nov 15, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> Martin. Skrelli.
> View attachment 4421439


Yup..and Skrelli the skunk is in jail


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 15, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> DIY
> Seriously?? Thats what you've come up with, some die hard lefty to defend the position of a tax grab? and some of those myths, he might as well be talking to children..
> 
> He references Elizabeth Warren over and over...Convenient, you dont mention the multitude of individuals and academics who say Warren's policies would destroy the economy. Heck, Alberta even tried that a few years ago under premier Stelmach..It bumped royalty O&G companies had to pay...and guess what Oil and Gas drilling in Alberta deopped like a stone as that investment moved to British Columbia and Saskatchewan! What you and buddy on the video don't seem to get is that money, although digital and tracked is still mobile.
> ...


^^^^^^triggered


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## hanimmal (Nov 15, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> Martin. Skrelli.
> View attachment 4421439


I think when looking at that I would point out that the profits go right back into investments, it is not cash on hand, when you see the overall profit for the industry is relatively stable @4% +/-2% in that chart. That re-investment is where is how R&D gets its funding.


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## MrToad69 (Nov 15, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> ^^^^^^triggered


Buck..
Your posts are gettin' shorter..that thumb slow'n down yer typin'

Back to work- worker bee..You've got to pay for the retirement of guys like DIY.. chuckle


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 15, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Buck..
> Your posts are gettin' shorter..that thumb slow'n down yer typin'
> 
> Back to work- worker bee..You've got to pay for the retirement of guys like DIY.. chuckle


Jokes on you, I love my work. My profession is my passion 

triggered bitch


----------



## mooray (Nov 15, 2019)

I don't think "slurpees & bmx" counts as a profession in your case.


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## MrToad69 (Nov 15, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Jokes on you, I love my work. My profession is my passion
> 
> triggered bitch


No joke here..just chuckles

You're at the low end if the totem pole..forkin over cash mindlessly like some rat.. and thinking you're getting a fair shake.
Keep up the hard work..

Like the communists..that enthusiasm fades..as you see the guy next to you doing half the work and getting the same piece of pie


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## UncleBuck (Nov 15, 2019)

mooray said:


> I don't think "slurpees & bmx" counts as a profession in your case.


Good thing I’m framing a6100 sq ft house in boulder county then


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 15, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> No joke here..just chuckles
> 
> You're at the low end if the totem pole..forkin over cash mindlessly like some rat.. and thinking you're getting a fair shake.
> Keep up the hard work..
> ...


I set aside taxes every week and estimate them quarterly. I’m fine with it. Just wish they’d tax me more and abolish this useless private insurance, which is a scam


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## mooray (Nov 15, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Good thing I’m framing a6100 sq ft house in boulder county then


Lies. A framer would have been able to pull that nail out.


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## MrToad69 (Nov 15, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Good thing I’m framing a6100 sq ft house in boulder county then


Buck
My point exactly!...you're the bee putting the luxury mansion together for someone else..

If you werent such an arrogant prick, I'd probably have some sympathy for you!


----------



## Fogdog (Nov 15, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Buck
> My point exactly!...you're the bee putting the luxury mansion together for someone else..
> 
> If you werent such an arrogant prick, I'd probably have some sympathy for you!


Says the guy who demands welfare for Alberta because oil prices went down.


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## UncleBuck (Nov 15, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Buck
> My point exactly!...you're the bee putting the luxury mansion together for someone else..
> 
> If you werent such an arrogant prick, I'd probably have some sympathy for you!


The guy who were building for was an early investor in that little doodad that goes in the back of your phone and lets you hold your phone with two fingers

something like this:



I’d be miserable if I didn’t get to come out here and do carpentry every day

in other words, I’d be like you


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## UncleBuck (Nov 15, 2019)

mooray said:


> Lies. A framer would have been able to pull that nail out.


I’m gonna start calling you moogay


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## mooray (Nov 15, 2019)

From your avatar, that'd be a good thing I think? An affectionate nickname because we buds now? Send weiner pics.

Pretty area and definitely a big house. Feel free to keep sending pics. I'm guessing there's a nice view to the left?


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## UncleBuck (Nov 15, 2019)

mooray said:


> From your avatar, that'd be a good thing I think? An affectionate nickname because we buds now? Send weiner pics.
> 
> Pretty area and definitely a big house. Feel free to keep sending pics. I'm guessing there's a nice view to the left?


You in three words: fraud, sock, tryhard


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## mooray (Nov 15, 2019)

Well shit, then I guess I don't want your weiner pics ya big jerk.


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## MrToad69 (Nov 15, 2019)

Buck
"You'd be miserable if you didn't get to do carpentry all day..."who are you kidsing? What you do sir is an admirable profession, but the only one you're fooling about not being miserable is you.
Since I've been on these boards you're one of the few people I've seen tied up in battles on numerous front...you fight with eveyone and your BS attitude..
If that's your idea if happiness...well..you need to rethink dude!
Toad


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## UncleBuck (Nov 15, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Buck
> "You'd be miserable if you didn't get to do carpentry all day..."who are you kidsing? What you do sir is an admirable profession, but the only one you're fooling about not being miserable is you.
> Since I've been on these boards you're one of the few people I've seen tied up in battles on numerous front...you fight with eveyone and your BS attitude..
> If that's your idea if happiness...well..you need to rethink dude!
> Toad


I’ll send you the welfare you need if you just stop crying


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## MrToad69 (Nov 15, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> I’ll send you the welfare you need if you just stop crying


Buck..
Mr. Angry...It never stops with you...You keep poundin' nails and livin' the dream, because no one but you is gonna make you happy!
Peace-Out!


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## UncleBuck (Nov 15, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Buck..
> Mr. Angry...It never stops with you...You keep poundin' nails and livin' the dream, because no one but you is gonna make you happy!
> Peace-Out!


I offer you the welfare you’re begging for and th I’m angry ?

cum on now

I don’t get to hand bang many nails anymore. There are approximately 18000 nails in the floor alone by my calculations. My gun does it all


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## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 15, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Buck
> My point exactly!...you're the bee putting the luxury mansion together for someone else..
> 
> If you werent such an arrogant prick, I'd probably have some sympathy for you!


And if the mansion buyers were taxed appropriately then Buck would not have had to pay a dime and the actual cost of the medical procedure would have been smaller. Taxing the rich for the public infrastructure they've used to create their wealth is the economically correct thing to do. The more money you put in the hands of the working class the better the economy. It = more spending. Trickle down only means the rich piss on the poor. Regan-omics was a flop.

Rich use the public infrastructure we all pay for to create their wealth. The public subsidizes the rich. 


What Democrats must tell Trump: Get infrastructure money from corporations and the rich



Nice vid, relates to working class disposable income...


----------



## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 15, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> You've actually changed my mind..One that once supported the good of all Canadians..If given the chance I'd now vote to separate..


I'm not even gonna respond to this bullshit, a waste of time. I told ya you were greed driven and an anti French bigot, and you never denied either. Pierre Trudeau was one of my heros and a hero to many millions of other Canadians, one of the modern founding fathers of our nation, who got us through much of the bullshit the Americans are facing today way back in the 60's and 70's. We owe our bill of rights and constitution to Trudeau, we also owe him the constitutional formula for the transfer payments you owe! 

*Happy Albertastan day ya fucking traitor, maybe the Russians can help ya out with yer greed driven dream of separation, I for one will make it a very bitter fucking pill for you to hork down.* Many Americans are throwing their country under the bus because of greed and bigotry and you are no different than an American Trumper. Those tar sands are sitting on Native land (or will be) and they will own yer ass, or most likely they will stay with Canada and have quasi provincial statutes (and the oil for themselves), it's the same deal for hunks of the oil patch. If Canada is divisible, so to is Alberta, young Trudeau would implement his father's strategy, it worked with Quebec and it would work well with the UN too. You'd end up with a rump state, few natural resources and widespread poverty.* How much is a greed head like you gonna contribute in blood and treasure to your new homeland of Albertastan? Answer, not too fucking much, someone else's blood and treasure will do that deed, you're too driven by greed.

Don't bother responding I won't, yer not worth the effort. 
I'm a Canadian patriot and you disgust me.*


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## Budley Doright (Nov 15, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> I have no clue what that means really, but even still I hope you are not in pain and everything turns out ok.


It means in February of 2019 I had a blood clot caused by heart issues travel into my kidney and supposedly killed some of it (that’s ok they say, I’ve got 1.5 left lol) but the follow up was done 2 days ago. I’m thinking that’s a long time to wait but oh well. If I would have had to pay for that little setback I’d be living in my car, 16 all over again. So I’ll say it again, there is a few kinks in our system but over all I guess we’re quite lucky.


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## Fogdog (Nov 15, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Buck..
> Mr. Angry...It never stops with you...You keep poundin' nails and livin' the dream, because no one but you is gonna make you happy!
> Peace-Out!


But Alberta needs those welfare checks because their expensively mined tar sands are loss-making ventures. Your sense of entitlement rivals that of US white supremacists like Trump.

Those oil fields will never be recovered either. You lobby for an industry of liars that are robbing the rest of Canada's hard workers.


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## Fogdog (Nov 15, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> DIY
> Seriously?? Thats what you've come up with, some die hard lefty to defend the position of a tax grab? and some of those myths, he might as well be talking to children..
> 
> He references Elizabeth Warren over and over...Convenient, you dont mention the multitude of individuals and academics who say Warren's policies would destroy the economy. Heck, Alberta even tried that a few years ago under premier Stelmach..It bumped royalty O&G companies had to pay...and guess what Oil and Gas drilling in Alberta deopped like a stone as that investment moved to British Columbia and Saskatchewan! What you and buddy on the video don't seem to get is that money, although digital and tracked is still mobile.
> ...


We get it. You are a "conservative". A conservative is somebody who wants to cancel government programs that other people need but not the ones they take advantage of. Today's conservatives don't want to conserve anything. They are locusts who consume until nothing is left.


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## Fogdog (Nov 15, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> Just had my appointment with the Urologist yesterday after throwing a clot into my kidney in February. 10 month wait....... not bad lol.


Take care of yourself. Hope the visit went well for you.


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 15, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> It means in February of 2019 I had a blood clot caused by heart issues travel into my kidney and supposedly killed some of it (that’s ok they say, I’ve got 1.5 left lol) but the follow up was done 2 days ago. I’m thinking that’s a long time to wait but oh well. If I would have had to pay for that little setback I’d be living in my car, 16 all over again. So I’ll say it again, there is a few kinks in our system but over all I guess we’re quite lucky.


Hope yer well Budley. Dunno much about your condition or medicine either! Your initial treatment probably included clot busting drugs and possibly a MRI? I don't think too much can be done by a urologist except follow up, one might have been consulted by your doctor and tests and MRI scans sent for evaluation. Your condition has the usual two treatment options, surgery or medication. 

Lifestyle changes can have the biggest impact though, stop smoking cigarettes and cut back on pot (be a weekend warrior with pot) and forget booze altogether! Diet and exercise work wonders too and meditation can help a guy to accomplish both of those goals and enjoy it too, _*have a peek at this Dudley, something from today's CNN site*_, meditation can be a big part of happiness. Do you have type 1 or 2 diabetes?

I can help with the meditation part if ya wish, I sorta specialize in cannabis users! Quit a month or so ago and I'm getting ready to start a local meditation group. *Here is a link to a FREE MBSR program* and I would recommend you talk to your doctor about getting into a local program at a hospital wellness program. Here is a short video I posted before on the benefits of a practice, you have some control over your health and using it makes a guy feel empowered, happier and less stressed etc.

Hope it helps and you find it useful


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## UncleBuck (Nov 15, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> It means in February of 2019 I had a blood clot caused by heart issues travel into my kidney and supposedly killed some of it (that’s ok they say, I’ve got 1.5 left lol) but the follow up was done 2 days ago. I’m thinking that’s a long time to wait but oh well. If I would have had to pay for that little setback I’d be living in my car, 16 all over again. So I’ll say it again, there is a few kinks in our system but over all I guess we’re quite lucky.


Jesus Christ


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## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 15, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> I think when looking at that I would point out that the profits go right back into investments, it is not cash on hand, when you see the overall profit for the industry is relatively stable @4% +/-2% in that chart. That re-investment is where is how R&D gets its funding.


The chart shows 2 groups, 1 is big pharma, the other is the rest of the fortune 500 companies. Compared to the average, it looks lime big pharma is 4x more profitable than the typical industry (16% vs 4%), and is also growing. 


Ontop of being ~4× more profitable (profit means money made - money spent) their margin rate is similarly ~4× greater than most industry. 

This means that the money spent on R&D which they claim is the reason for high drug prices is false. If the industry wasn't inflated, the cost of R&D would offset profits to realize a closer profitability to other fortune 500 companies. Imo, when it comes to life or death, I'm a little more inclined to regulate the free market surrounding the industry.
There's an imbalance of power between the "cure seller" and the sick person needing the cure. Imo, big pharma could stand to be regulated to the point that they perform on par with the average fortune 500 companies. 

They spend more on marketing and financial engineering now then R&D, which is driven by shareholder demand. 


They've lobbied the government to increase publicly funded research (NIH ect, which I'm ok with) and use the discoveries paid for by the tax payer to create the drugs to sell to them, albeit at high prices which they also lobby to maintain. The public subsidizes big pharma while big pharma simultaneously lobbies to keep drug prices high. Winners are Wall Street and big pharma, losers are the sick and unwealthy. 
 








 A Frenzy Of Lobbying On 21st Century Cures


Three lobbyists for every member of Congress in a push to pass a bill that increases research funding and speeds up approvals.



khn.org






Every drug since 2010 was developed through reseach from public funding...








NIH Funding Behind All New Drug Approvals by FDA from 2010-2016


Analysis is reportedly the first to measure the scale and impact of government contribution to new medicines.



www.biocompare.com







https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29440428/



I'm not discounting the fact that big pharma conducts R&D, but imo the high cost of the drug has more to do with profit than the cost of creation.


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 15, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Jesus Christ


Jesus did provide free health care to his clients... * If free healthcare is good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!*


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## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 15, 2019)

DIY-HP-LED said:


> Jesus did provide free health care to his clients... * If free healthcare is good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!*


That's what I say about hookers and alcohol, if their good enough for Jesus there good enough for me lol

Mary Magdeline...
Water into wine...


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## UncleBuck (Nov 15, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> DIY
> Seems like you're the only dick with your hand out as I'm not not the one collecting the cash!!
> 
> Greed..funny how you have that worked out with YOUR hands in the pockets of others...kinda like asking someone else to pay for your lunch..huh? Mr entitled...parasitic prick!!!!
> ...


Woah buddy let’s keep it civil


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 15, 2019)

Why didn't worker's compensation cover the injury? Were you engaged in illegal employment?


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## UncleBuck (Nov 15, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Why didn't worker's compensation cover the injury? Were you engaged in illegal employment?


Lol

independent contractors don’t get workmans comp. we provide it for our helpers


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 15, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Lol
> 
> independent contractors don’t get workmans comp. we provide it for our helpers


Everyone's an "independent contractor" these days. You are a business owner, but drive your own nails? Sounds a bit like illegal employment to me. Are you a tax dodger or what?


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## UncleBuck (Nov 15, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Everyone's an "independent contractor" these days. You are a business owner, but drive your own nails? Sounds a bit like illegal employment to me. Are you a tax dodger or what?


My good god you sound positively retarded

most people are hourly employees. They work and get paid under their own name, are entitled to workman’s comp should they get injured on the job, and only pay 7.65% of their wages into fica (6.2% for social security and 1.45% for Medicare). The employer pays the other half of fica taxes

I am an independent contractor. I work and get paid under my business name, am not entitled to workman’s comp, and pay 15.3% into fica.

as an independent contractor, I drive my own nails, not someone else’s. Hence the independent part.

have you Bernie babies never worked a day in your lives? Or are you a russian tard?


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 15, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> My good god you sound positively retarded
> 
> most people are hourly employees. They work and get paid under their own name, are entitled to workman’s comp should they get injured on the job, and only pay 7.65% of their wages into fica (6.2% for social security and 1.45% for Medicare). The employer pays the other half of fica taxes
> 
> ...


I've been working for approx 36 years of my life to date and have owned two independent businesses. I guess business isn't good for you if you have to drive your own nails as a home building contractor. Most people hire legitimate employees to do that work, since as you've discovered it's a hazardous industry.

I hope that business picks up for you, so that you can hire employees to do that sort of thing for you, and you don't have to put your under-insured ass on the line any longer.

As you likely know there is much "day worker" types of gigs (aka illegal employment) in the construction industry, hence my speculation. I do hope business picks up for you.


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## UncleBuck (Nov 15, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I've been working for approx 36 years of my life to date and have owned two independent businesses. I guess business isn't good for you if you have to drive your own nails as a home building contractor. Most people hire legitimate employees to do that work, since as you've discovered it's a hazardous industry.
> 
> I hope that business picks up for you, so that you can hire employees to do that sort of thing for you, and you don't have to put your under-insured ass on the line any longer.


it Is clear to me and anyone else who has actually run a business that you have no fucking clue what you are talking about. you are lying and lying, and then lying some more

anyone who runs an “independent business”, as I do and you claim to do (but are lying), knows that workman’s comp is the responsibility of the business owner for the benefit of the employees of said business. Furthermore, if you had actually ever run an independent business, you’d know that you have to cover all of your own taxes and half of the employees fica taxes

the fact that you are completely unaware of these basic, entry level facts about running your own business has exposed you as a complete and utter fraud

now go delete your account and start a new sock, moron


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> it Is clear to me and anyone else who has actually run a business that you have no fucking clue what you are talking about. you are lying and lying, and then lying some more
> 
> anyone who runs an “independent business”, as I do and you claim to do (but are lying), knows that workman’s comp is the responsibility of the business owner for the benefit of the employees of said business. Furthermore, if you had actually ever run an independent business, you’d know that you have to cover all of your own taxes and half of the employees fica taxes
> 
> ...


Many "independent contractors" call themselves such, but do not fall under the definition of independent contractor, nor do they always pay taxes on the work they do. Personally I do understand the rules, and file both w-2's and 1099's with my personal taxes for both my legal employment and small business every year, and I am glad to hear that you also do the same. I only hope that your business picks up so that you can afford to hire workers to do the dangerous stuff. Frankly if you are putting nails in your finger, maybe it should tell you something, perhaps that you're not really up to par to do the job yourself anyway and should hire some employees. Anyway, I do hope business get better for you. Perhaps you should consider putting more money into your marketing department, or simply increasing your bid pricing, so that you can afford to hire employees. 

Anyway, I'll think good thoughts for you and hope your business picks up. It must be really depressing to have to do all the hard work yourself as a building contractor, and not be able to hire some strong workers. Good luck!


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## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Personally I do understand the rules


No you don’t 

workman’s comp and fica taxes are literally the two most basic things any independent business owner needs to understand. you’ve proven that you have zero understanding of either

you claiming to understand the rules at this point is like a blind man claiming to understand colors. That is how badly you have shown your ass

but then again, all of us already knew you were a complete fraud


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> No you don’t
> 
> workman’s comp and fica taxes are literally the two most basic things any independent business owner needs to understand. you’ve proven that you have zero understanding of either
> 
> ...


Perhaps you're missing the point, you don't seem all that bright afterall, since you continually fail to understand. 

Many folks in your industry who call themselves independent contractors don't receive 1099's and also don't report wages, so they don't even pay fica. It's pretty common in your industry, I'm surprised to see that you are somehow ignorant of that fact.

I will say I find it very odd that any real construction contractor would be driving their own nails, unless the business was in very poor shape. As I said to you however, I do hope your business picks up. It must really suck to have to drive nails all day. Prolly makes you think about pounding one in the head from time to time, but keep your chin up, I'm sure business will pick up. Afterall the economy is at an all time high. I grossed more than ever last year. I'm sure if you work hard you can do well too.

The good thing for me, is my side-business is for equipment rental, so I don't have to put any labor on the line. Very simple easy money.


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## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 16, 2019)

Ya independent contractors don't get workmans comp. You file a 1099 and are responsible to file income quarterly or yearly. I've worked construction plenty and most my work was done as a 1099. Most the foremen/owners work right along side. They'll typically drive the equipment. They'd rather hire a 1099 so they don't have to pay workmans comp etc. It's really not very outlandish at all.


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> Ya independent contractors don't get workmans comp. You file a 1099 and are responsible to file income quarterly or yearly. I've worked construction plenty and most my work was done as a 1099. Most the foremen/owners work right along side. They'll typically drive the equipment. They'd rather hire a 1099 so they don't have to pay workmans comp etc. It's really not very outlandish at all.


Right, however what you're describing doesn't fall within the department of labor standards for independent contractors. While the foreman may be a legitimate independent contractor, the day workers simply don't fulfill the standards of definition set forth to be an actual independent contractor. It's basically unenforced illegal employment. Simply issuing a worker a 1099, doesn't magically legitimize their independent contractor status. Here is a bit of clarify on the subject:





__





Independent Contractor (Self-Employed) or Employee? | Internal Revenue Service


Learn how to determine whether a person providing a service to you is an employee or an independent contractor.




www.irs.gov





Funny story: a business I was employeed by had me do some "hiring" for them, and wanted the workers to be independent contractors. I tried to explain that they weren't really legit independent contractors. They said, "it's fine, don't worry about it, we checked with risk management", so I said ok and hired that way for a couple of years. Then guess what? The IRS audited the company, and it was decided that they could no longer hire that way, and all the day workers became employees from there on. Real world stuff here kids.


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Everyone's an "independent contractor" these days. You are a business owner, but drive your own nails? Sounds a bit like illegal employment to me. Are you a tax dodger or what?


Dont need to be a tax dodger, the system is set up for "contractors" (sole traders) to pay little to no tax. We can pretty much claim whatever we spend and adjust that to what we earn. Its to encourage spending.
Can also be a fantastic way of life. I work 4 hrs a day 4 or 5 days a week or less. Love it!


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## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Everyone's an "independent contractor" these days. You are a business owner, but drive your own nails? Sounds a bit like illegal employment to me. Are you a tax dodger or what?


Lol you're all over the place here. 

If its illegal employment, how is Buck a tax dodger? That's the hiring entity dodging taxes, not the employee. 

If you provide your own tools and do work for multiple companies, I'd say its perfectly fine to file as an independent contractor. If you're hiring a gofor or a nailer, then those are employees. Real world? Lol that is real world, there's multiple parties involved in completing a construction project, and hiring independent contractors is how much of it is done. Plenty of sole proprietors, not everyone works for a corporation and companies would rather hire 1099s to reduce costs. 

It doesn't seem that you're all too familiar with the culture. Owners work. It's the type of person. Sure some don't, but most are frugal and brought up working. Same with farmers ranchers ect. The fact that someone doesn't sit on their behind and watch others work, doesn't mean the business is in poor shape lol some people actually enjoy their work


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## blu3bird (Nov 16, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> It doesn't seem that you're all too familiar with the culture. Owners work. It's the type of person. Sure some don't, but most are frugal and brought up working. Same with farmers ranchers ect. The fact that someone doesn't sit on their behind and watch others work, doesn't mean the business is in poor shape lol some people actually enjoy their work


You're talking to a Bernie supporter, there's no point in trying to explain what actually working is to him


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 16, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> Take care of yourself. Hope the visit went well for you.


Ya all good, waiting for ablation to control heart rate since Feb as well, they say any day now lol. This was all brought on (they figure) by a excessively fun time in Mexico, to much tequila they say . I don’t normally drink much now unless I’m away with the old team and the doc says it’s not uncommon for this to occur if the body is not accustomed to copious amounts of booze, ok I know that now .


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## Budley Doright (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Everyone's an "independent contractor" these days. You are a business owner, but drive your own nails? Sounds a bit like illegal employment to me. Are you a tax dodger or what?


Being the astute business man that you proclaim to be I would think you would be up on all of this. Do you not check for this when you hire people, or do you hire tax cheats?


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## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 16, 2019)

blu3bird said:


> You're talking to a Bernie supporter, there's no point in trying to explain what actually working is to him


Lol well I'm not sure on Bernie, so far he sounds ok to me but haven't really dove in. I'm for a little wealth distribution, coupled with policy change to reduce the gap. I believe most the rich haven't worked a day in their lives either, just inherited daddy's money for generations, though they want to kick and scream today about unjust taxes on the wealth they didn't even contribute to. It's human nature, a baby will steal a toy from another baby without ever being told or shown how. We're greedy by nature. The frustrating thing is that the unwealthy have a huge majority and could change their future for the better in a heartbeat, but they lack comprehension and are herded into voting against their best interest. Too many decisions based on facebook likes and emotion rather than logic.


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 16, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> My good god you sound positively retarded
> 
> most people are hourly employees. They work and get paid under their own name, are entitled to workman’s comp should they get injured on the job, and only pay 7.65% of their wages into fica (6.2% for social security and 1.45% for Medicare). The employer pays the other half of fica taxes
> 
> ...


I’m beginning to understand the mindset of these Bernie supporters. They seem to have no clue how the actual world works. Anyone who is successful and works hard is, in their mind, a rich prick who should pay their way. It’s becoming quite apparent their all whiners and blame others for their lack of motivation and stupidness ........ sad.


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 16, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> Lol well I'm not sure on Bernie, so far he sounds ok to me but haven't really dove in. I'm for a little wealth distribution, coupled with policy change to reduce the gap. I believe most the rich haven't worked a day in their lives either, just inherited daddy's money for generations, though they want to kick and scream today about unjust taxes on the wealth they didn't even contribute to. It's human nature, a baby will steal a toy from another baby without ever being told or shown how. The frustrating thing is that the unwealthy have a huge majority and could change their future for the better in a heartbeat, but they lack comprehension and are herded into voting against their best interest. Too many decisions based on facebook likes and emotion rather than logic.


What’s Rich? A million? 10 million? 100 thousand in personal wealth? To lump “rich” into one big heap can be kind of misleading ..... just sayin.


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## blu3bird (Nov 16, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> Lol well I'm not sure on Bernie, so far he sounds ok to me but haven't really dove in. I'm for a little wealth distribution, coupled with policy change to reduce the gap. I believe most the rich haven't worked a day in their lives either, just inherited daddy's money for generations, though they want to kick and scream today about unjust taxes on the wealth they didn't even contribute to. It's human nature, a baby will steal a toy from another baby without ever being told or shown how. We're greedy by nature. The frustrating thing is that the unwealthy have a huge majority and could change their future for the better in a heartbeat, but they lack comprehension and are herded into voting against their best interest. Too many decisions based on facebook likes and emotion rather than logic.


I'll agree with you that a lot of people vote on emotions with the beliefs that they're entitled.

As far as inheriting money or whatever, let's say your parents passed away and left you their house. Do you think you should have to give it away to a stranger because you didn't work/pay for that house?


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## Budley Doright (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Perhaps you're missing the point, you don't seem all that bright afterall, since you continually fail to understand.
> 
> Many folks in your industry who call themselves independent contractors don't receive 1099's and also don't report wages, so they don't even pay fica. It's pretty common in your industry, I'm surprised to see that you are somehow ignorant of that fact.
> 
> ...


I can only assume you are not being totally truthful here lol. Equipment rental business owners typically work extremely hard to be successful. Long hours maintaining the equipment. Long hours at the distribution Center. Renting to “contractors” you would think would give a better understanding of the world of construction which seems very weak. You seem to be void of this knowledge which would lead me to believe your lying.


----------



## hanimmal (Nov 16, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> The chart shows 2 groups, 1 is big pharma, the other is the rest of the fortune 500 companies. Compared to the average, it looks lime big pharma is 4x more profitable than the typical industry (16% vs 4%), and is also growing.
> 
> 
> Ontop of being ~4× more profitable (profit means money made - money spent) their margin rate is similarly ~4× greater than most industry.
> ...


I don't see how you can conclude based on the above that R&D costs being the reason for high drug prices is false. Also I was saying reinvestment, that goes into everything to do with the R&D like scientists wages, new labs. But also future costs too, if they get hit with inevitable huge settlements that needs to get paid because they are not likely to be bailed out by the government so need to be sure to cover that stuff out of pocket and with insurance. 



ChiefRunningPhist said:


> They've lobbied the government to increase publicly funded research (NIH ect, which I'm ok with) and use the discoveries paid for by the tax payer to create the drugs to sell to them, albeit at high prices which they also lobby to maintain. The public subsidizes big pharma while big pharma simultaneously lobbies to keep drug prices high. Winners are Wall Street and big pharma, losers are the sick and unwealthy.


I think this again is just too easy to say. Things that are true, they do spend a shit load on lobbying and everything else, 

I am not trying to stand up for Big Pharma, I am sure there is a ton of good healthy regulations/taxatoin that should be applied to them, but I just push back against the pitchfork and torch mentality of easy villains. 


ChiefRunningPhist said:


> I'm not discounting the fact that big pharma conducts R&D, but imo the high cost of the drug has more to do with profit than the cost of creation.


Another measure, Internal Rate of Return (IRR) is even more telling. IRR calculates the sales/cash flows resulting from R&D investments, ties R&D and the returns it generates together, and is a more appropriate metric for biopharma productivity. Deloitte reports that the IRR for biopharma R&D has been steadily falling from 10.1% in 2010 to 3.2% in 2017. Even Wall Street hasn’t bought into the “pharma soaring profits” view. Since February 1, 2014, while the Dow has risen 63%, the stock prices of a number of major pharma companies have been muted with Pfizer and Bristol-Myers each growing by about 15%, and Merck and AstraZeneca by roughly 6.5%. Even Lilly’s growth of 43% still lags the Dow.

I don't know enough about the profit/loss of this industry, but do tend to believe that if there is such an inbalance, other rich people will start to jump into the market to steal that excess profits. If there are entry issues that should be cleaned up with legislation, but it might be hard in a industry that relies on years of hardcore research for each drug and such a high rate of drugs not making it to the market.


----------



## blu3bird (Nov 16, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> I’m beginning to understand the mindset of these Bernie supporters. They seem to have no clue how the actual world works. Anyone who is successful and works hard is, in their mind, a rich prick who should pay their way. It’s becoming quite apparent their all whiners and blame others for their lack of motivation and stupidness ........ sad.


Exactly 100%

These are people that truly believe working a minimum wage job should buy a house, car and be able to raise a family. They want everything life has to offer, only with minimum effort on their part. If they can't have or achieve what someone else has worked hard for, that's inequality to them.


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> . I'm for a little wealth distribution, coupled with policy change to reduce the gap. I believe most the rich haven't worked a day in their lives either, just inherited daddy's money for generations, though they want to kick and scream today about unjust taxes on the wealth they didn't even contribute to. It's human nature, a baby will steal a toy from another baby without ever being told or shown how. We're greedy by nature. The frustrating thing is that the unwealthy have a huge majority and could change their future for the better in a heartbeat, but they lack comprehension and are herded into voting against their best interest. Too many decisions based on facebook likes and emotion rather than logic.


needs to be read again. Truth.


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

blu3bird said:


> Exactly 100%
> 
> These are people that truly believe working a minimum wage job should buy a house, car and be able to raise a family. They want everything life has to offer, only with minimum effort on their part. If they can't have or achieve what someone else has worked hard for, that's inequality to them.


To be fair we grew up when this was true. I did. Should be true now. was in ur parents or grandparents time.
But then i had free to end user healthcare..still do. did when i had some investment properties to..Its just always there,

Min wage job should not mean u cannot live life.


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## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 16, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> What’s Rich? A million? 10 million? 100 thousand in personal wealth? To lump “rich” into one big heap can be kind of misleading ..... just sayin.


Ya that's vague, I'd say rich is top 30% or qtr mil of wealth after house is bought, and I'll clarify the inheritance babies as the top 5%. According to the link the top 10% (in 2017) were worth ~1.2mil+. Lots of small business owners worth $1mil+ so I don't think all rich are lazy, but I do think the tax we currently pay is too low. Either pay employees more or pay more taxes to subsidize the employee's health and cost of living expenses. The gap is out of control. Working class Americans are suffering while the rich continue to prosper. Wealth distribution? Ya, that's been happening since 1980, but from the working class to the wealthy. Imo the unwealthy's taxes subsidize the wealthy's income.










United States Net Worth Brackets, Percentiles, and Top One Percent - DQYDJ


Graph & table of net worth brackets and percentiles in the United States for recent data. See top one percent, top .5%, and .1%, median, and more.




dqydj.com







The working class gets a black eye, but the rich get handouts too. Farm/export subsidies, oil subsidies, transportation subsidies, etc.


----------



## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 16, 2019)

@hanimmal 

We have different opinions, fair enough.


----------



## hanimmal (Nov 16, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> Ya that's vague, I'd say rich is top 30% or qtr mil of wealth after house is bought, and I'll clarify the inheritance babies as the top 5%. According to the link the top 10% (in 2017) were worth ~1.2mil+. Lots of small business owners worth $1mil+ so I don't think all rich are lazy, but I do think the tax we currently pay is too low. Either pay employees more or pay more taxes to subsidize the employee's health and cost of living expenses. The gap is out of control. Working class Americans are suffering while the rich continue to prosper. Wealth distribution? Ya, that's been happening since 1980, but from the working class to the wealthy. Imo the unwealthy's taxes subsidize the wealthy's income.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Add in our highway/ rural road system and how much commerce the wealthy get to use on our dime because of it, electrical grid over vast rural areas, the education level of the workforce is all wealth distribution where money trickles up to the benefit of wealthiest.



ChiefRunningPhist said:


> @hanimmal
> 
> We have different opinions, fair enough.


Its all good, I am not trying to form an opinion on this so much as try to point out that it is too complex for the certainty of a populist message of they are profiting too much. I get too in the weeds sometimes, good conversation.


----------



## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 16, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> To be fair we grew up when this was true. I did. Should be true now. was in ur parents or grandparents time.
> But then i had free to end user healthcare..still do. did when i had some investment properties to..Its just always there,
> 
> Min wage job should not mean u cannot live life.





blu3bird said:


> Exactly 100%
> 
> These are people that truly believe working a minimum wage job should buy a house, car and be able to raise a family. They want everything life has to offer, only with minimum effort on their part. If they can't have or achieve what someone else has worked hard for, that's inequality to them.


Theres only so many hours in a day. Minimum wage doesn't mean minimum effort, or equate to an unvaluable person. How hard you work is not indicative to how much you make. <--- Read that again. There's literally a yacht subsidy, how much excess is enough?

So you want the poor to pick themselves up and cross class lines, well now you've introduced a lot more competition. Now your business suffers. The economy needs a working class, but they need to be respected by the rich and treated as Americans because that's what they are. They aren't slaves or livestock with their only purpose of benefitting the bottom line.


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 16, 2019)

blu3bird said:


> Exactly 100%
> 
> These are people that truly believe working a minimum wage job should buy a house, car and be able to raise a family. They want everything life has to offer, only with minimum effort on their part. If they can't have or achieve what someone else has worked hard for, that's inequality to them.


It’s like if I say I make enough money to support my lifestyle (that’s the reason I work hard, to support a lifestyle) I should feel guilty. I don’t speak out much about how people are taxed either, be it rich or poor. I do know that given the opportunity, most if not all, would rather not pay taxes be it sales tax or what ever. An example would be selling a bit of illegal pot. Does everyone reveal that on their income declaration? I think not lol.


Lucky Luke said:


> To be fair we grew up when this was true. I did. Should be true now. was in ur parents or grandparents time.
> But then i had free to end user healthcare..still do. did when i had some investment properties to..Its just always there,
> 
> Min wage job should not mean u cannot live life.


Being just shy of the 60 mark it’s a bit of a struggle for me not being able to relate hard work and motivation to make a living wage (for the record I do think that’s a good thing). Given those attributes when starting out, the world was my oyster so to speak. If I wanted to get ahead all it took was drive. I do get that those efforts now do not always equate to a living wage. In my limited view of the employment market, I still see that those qualities will lead to success in my industry, but they seem to be qualities lacking more often than not. I guess I’m getting old and crotchety ..... fuck


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 16, 2019)

“There's literally a yacht subsidy, how much excess is enough?” WTF??? 
Well I guess it does support a lower tax base of the builders, captain and crew. Makes total sense .


----------



## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 16, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> “There's literally a yacht subsidy, how much excess is enough?” WTF???
> Well I guess it does support a lower tax base of the builders, captain and crew. Makes total sense .


Really? Not sure if you're being sarcastic there lol.


----------



## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 16, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> DIY
> Seems like you're the only dick with your hand out as I'm not not the one collecting the cash!!
> 
> Greed..funny how you have that worked out with YOUR hands in the pockets of others...kinda like asking someone else to pay for your lunch..huh? Mr entitled...parasitic prick!!!!
> ...


I wasn't gonna respond except to say, DON'T POST HERE WHILE YOU ARE DRUNK!
Posting at 1:30AM on a Friday night and the content of your post says it all.


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 16, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> Really? Not sure if you're being sarcastic there lol.
> 
> Just because you contribute to the economy doesn't mean you deserve a subsidy. Garunteed if yacht subsidies were dropped you'd see ~0 impact in the much needed yacht market lol (sarcastic) also, not much employment there either, not much impact on GDP, or really anything I wouldn't think.
> 
> ...


Sarcastic lol. My Yacht of the moment consists of a 17’ 1999 smokercraft lol. Kind of like the subsidies that the energy companies get in Canada consisting of, for just one of many, the weaselling our of, through legislation, the true cost of remediation to the environment.


----------



## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 16, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> Sarcastic lol. My Yacht of the moment consists of a 17’ 1999 smokercraft lol. Kind of like the subsidies that the energy companies get in Canada consisting of, for just one of many, the weaselling our of, through legislation, the true cost of remediation to the environment.


Lol
How I imagine you feel in the smokercraft (or at least I would)...


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 16, 2019)

DIY-HP-LED said:


> I wasn't gonna respond except to say, DON'T POST HERE WHILE YOU ARE DRUNK!
> Posting at 1:30AM on a Friday night and the content of your post say it all.


Yup a few things toad says are open to thoughtful debate, but that kind of ruins it all and makes the toad look a tad challenged lol. The time thing could be due to zone difference, but your right, The content is asinine. I myself am counting the days that my first pension cheque arrives ....... 5 years, 28 days actually . I’m only holding out for the subsidized drug coverage ...... yay lol. It is unfortunate that defined pensions are no longer the norm, just another added struggle for present and future retirees.


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 16, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> Lol
> How I imagine you feel in the smokercraft (or at least I would)...


Actually it’s probably one of my favourite boats in a long line of boats lol. But ya a bit different than my last (pictured). At my age it’s not about show anymore .


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## MrToad69 (Nov 16, 2019)

DIY-HP-LED said:


> I wasn't gonna respond except to say, DON'T POST HERE WHILE YOU ARE DRUNK!
> Posting at 1:30AM on a Friday night and the content of your post say it all.


DIY
You must think the world revolves around you...you know we're in different time zones right?
Definitely had a couple beer with dinner but the sentiment remains the same..
You sound like the aggressive panhandler on the street who some how thinks he entitled to the money of those passing by..telling everyone who doesnt pay up that they're greedy...even throwing in the odd racist accusation in order to liberate some pocket change..
Anyway..enough said..obviously constructive conversation has long since passed..tough to discuss rationally with those who have communist tendencies which you seem to take pride in.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Perhaps you're missing the point, you don't seem all that bright afterall, since you continually fail to understand.
> 
> Many folks in your industry who call themselves independent contractors don't receive 1099's and also don't report wages, so they don't even pay fica. It's pretty common in your industry, I'm surprised to see that you are somehow ignorant of that fact.
> 
> ...


Just stop already. You got caught lying. You clearly have never owned a business.

mans how the fuck do you build a house without driving mails all day, fraudy McFraudster?


----------



## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 16, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> You must think the world revolves around you...you know we're in different time zones right?


10:30 PM on a Friday is prime time drunk time, I used to live in Winnipeg remember and there's a 3 hour difference between there and where I live now. Besides from the content of your post you'd be passed out drunk by 1:30 AM Mountain time.

If I had commie tendencies I'd vote NDP, though as a senior citizen I do like their pharmacare ideas!


----------



## MrToad69 (Nov 16, 2019)

DIY
Assumptions, assumptions..that was my bed time there Carnac.

Here a little something to ponder...(How's that for timely..?)
DIY..You continue to spit out assumptions... and personal bias. Here's some raw data for you to digest...

Gives our neighbours to the south a hint of how socialism works here in









How Alberta pays Quebec’s bills: Four charts that show Alberta picks up the tab


The nearly $240B Albertans have paid out as part of net federal fiscal transfers is more than one-and-a-half times as much as B.C. and Ontario combined




nationalpost.com





Perhaps you should write in the the National Post and call them a bunch of greedy bigots as well?


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> DIY
> Assumptions, assumptions..that was my bed time there Carnac.
> 
> Here a little something to ponder...(How's that for timely..?)
> ...


Here in the states, liberal states like California Colorado and New York pay the bills for states that vote for republicans but you don’t see us crying endlessly about it, do you?

cuck


----------



## MrToad69 (Nov 16, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Here in the states, liberal states like California Colorado and New York pay the bills for states that vote for republicans but you don’t see us crying endlessly about it, do you?
> 
> cuck


Buck
"Don't see you crying down there? " Really?...read a paper dude...Your country has never been more divided...except perhaps during the civil war..Not something to take lightly...


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> Buck
> "Don't see you crying down there? " Really?...read a paper dude...Your country has never been more divided...except perhaps during the civil war..Not something to take lightly...


Ok, so you can’t show us crying about how we support the welfare sucking conservatives 

thanks, got it


----------



## mooray (Nov 16, 2019)

As far as I know, red states do tend to be the bigger suckers of federal dollars. I'm not sure how positive California is anymore with the fires and I don't know if it's still true, but there was a time when California was the fourth largest economy in the world. No red state comes close to that.

The division isn't really the fault of democrats or liberals, unless we're supposed to let rednecks steamroll us back to the racist and misogynistic 1950's..? Something really important to remember about a "civil war", the nation and the world has already determined those things to be wrong, so it's not exactly the rednecks against the liberals, it'd be the rednecks against the liberals and very likely our allies from around the world.


----------



## MrToad69 (Nov 16, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Ok, so you can’t show us crying about how we support the welfare sucking conservatives
> 
> thanks, got it


Buck..
You crying?


----------



## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 16, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> Actually it’s probably one of my favourite boats in a long line of boats lol. But ya a bit different than my last (pictured). At my age it’s not about show anymore .


Hell ya, I'd rather have a fishing boat, I don't do the skiing ect. I own a few kayaks to catch my fish but I might be ready for an upgrade + trolling motor haha


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## Fogdog (Nov 16, 2019)

MrToad69 said:


> DIY
> You must think the world revolves around you...you know we're in different time zones right?
> Definitely had a couple beer with dinner but the sentiment remains the same..
> You sound like the aggressive panhandler on the street who some how thinks he entitled to the money of those passing by..telling everyone who doesnt pay up that they're greedy...even throwing in the odd racist accusation in order to liberate some pocket change..
> Anyway..enough said..obviously constructive conversation has long since passed..tough to discuss rationally with those who have communist tendencies which you seem to take pride in.


A guy can't even retire anymore? Meanwhile you flood this site with tears over Alberta's oil industry collapsing when oil prices dropped due to world wide glut. Then once the crocodile tears clear, demand Alberta's unfeasible tar sands mining industry be given even more subsidies. 

There was a time when being conservative meant they supported rule by a monarch. Now, it's all about wanting to waste resources. From what you say, you aren't all that different from Bernie's babies in the US. "We don't want to work but we want everything hard workers have". It's becoming the mantra of the far left and the far right.


----------



## mooray (Nov 16, 2019)

Oil sands can eat a dick. Best thing to happen to Ft Mac was that fire.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> I can only assume you are not being totally truthful here lol. Equipment rental business owners typically work extremely hard to be successful. Long hours maintaining the equipment. Long hours at the distribution Center. Renting to “contractors” you would think would give a better understanding of the world of construction which seems very weak. You seem to be void of this knowledge which would lead me to believe your lying.


Mine is a side business to my full time job as an employee. I rent tech equipment. My gear fits in a large closet. I rent a package for around $350/day, which travel in the trunk of my car to the site. I am sometimes hired to operate my own gear through a separate company, which issues me a w-2 for my labor, and I get a 1099 for the rental of the equipment. Checks for the equipment rental are issued to my business name, as per my fictitious name statement on file with the county. It's a side-hustle for me, so business income gets files with my personal income. I don't make a lot, but it's a decent extra income.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> If you provide your own tools and do work for multiple companies, I'd say its perfectly fine to file as an independent contractor. If you're hiring a gofor or a nailer, then those are employees. Real world? Lol that is real world, there's multiple parties involved in completing a construction project, and hiring independent contractors is how much of it is done. Plenty of sole proprietors, not everyone works for a corporation and companies would rather hire 1099s to reduce costs.


IRS wouldn't agree with you. Having your own tools is only one criteria for being an independent contractor. Is someone else telling you when to show up for work? If so, you are an employee. There are many other criteria as well. It's not so cut and dry as you may think.


----------



## Fogdog (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> You hire people, jackass. If you are truly a business owner who is also a laborer for your own business:
> 
> 1. your business isn't doing well
> 2. you're stupid for not having insurance
> ...


If you really do own a business, you ought to read up on the subject. 

Here, I'll help by providing the first link to your education on the subject:









What’s the Difference Between an Independent Contractor and an Employee?


For state agency staff, this explains some differences between independent contractors and employees




www.acf.hhs.gov






_Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does the job?_
_Does the company control the business aspects of the worker’s job? These include arrangements like how the worker is paid, whether expenses are reimbursed, and who provides tools and supplies._
_Is there a written contract or employee benefits such as a pension plan, insurance, or vacation pay?_
_Will the relationship continue and is the work a key aspect of the business?_

We hired an independent contractor to do some kitchen cabinet modifications. We agreed what the end result would look like. Other than that, he controls what he does, pays for his expenses and tools, has no contract other than the description of the work and how much he will charge us for it and the relationship ends when the work is done. 

I'd hire Buck if he were in my area and I needed his services too. 

It's not all that complicated unless you are retarded.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> If you really do own a business, you ought to read up on the subject.
> 
> Here, I'll help by providing the first link to your education on the subject:
> 
> ...


True. Additionally if Buck accepted your contract, and then hired a couple of guys to help him drive nails and cut wood with their own hammers and saws at a shift time Buck calls, they would be employees. 

Unfortunately many people would pay these would be employees wrongly as "independent-contractors". It's a very common practice in fact.

It's good to hear that perhaps Buck is a legit independent contractor after all, but it just seems that his business isn't doing well if he has to nail his own fingers.


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 16, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> If you really do own a business, you ought to read up on the subject.
> 
> Here, I'll help by providing the first link to your education on the subject:
> 
> ...


For some it seems really complicated lol. I would hire Buck as well if I wasn’t a cheap stubborn prick who does it all myself lol. Sometimes it works out well. Sometimes it turns into a complete pile of shit lol.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> You hire people, jackass. If you are truly a business owner who is also a laborer for your own business:
> 
> 1. your business isn't doing well
> 2. you're stupid for not having insurance
> ...


Flail harder. Then read the first post in the thread regarding my insurance, fraudy McFraudster


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> True. Additionally if Buck accepted your contract, and then hired a couple of guys to help him drive nails and cut wood with their own hammers and saws at a shift time Buck calls, they would be employees.
> 
> Unfortunately many people would pay these would be employees wrongly as "independent-contractors". It's a very common practice in fact.
> 
> It's good to hear that perhaps Buck is a legit independent contractor after all, but it just seems that his business isn't doing well if he has to nail his own fingers.


Most people when so obviously caught in a lie just shirk away

not you though. You are giving us more and more hilarious material to laugh at

you hate to see it though. So undignified


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Flail harder. Then read the first post in the thread regarding my insurance, fraudy McFraudster


Footnote better. First post says nothing of your insurance.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> Your an idiot. The more you talk the more of an asshole you really seem to be. I’ve heard you say about 10 times now how successful you are. Are you trying to convince us or you.


*you're

I'm explaining my small business because it came in question. Don't like answers?


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Footnote better. First post says nothing of your insurance.


You didn’t read to post 6?


----------



## Fogdog (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Footnote better. First post says nothing of your insurance.


Thanks for replying back to say your problem isn't ignorance, it's mental retardation. 

His third post on the first page does say it. You ignore the point and find an irrelevant gotcha to claim you "win" on the internet.

As in "neenernerneener, your first post doesn't say that. "

'tard


----------



## Fogdog (Nov 16, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> For some it seems really complicated lol. I would hire Buck as well if I wasn’t a cheap stubborn prick who does it all myself lol. Sometimes it works out well. Sometimes it turns into a complete pile of shit lol.


LOL

Same here.

I'm a pounder, not a splicer. Some work I can't risk turning out badly. The oven cut-out for my kitchen cabinet doesn't fit modern-day conventional ovens and the old one (early '70's) recently died. For detail work like that, I have no problem turning the job over somebody with more skills than I have. 

Nice job on your dock, btw. That kind of thing you can screw up a little and nobody will notice. If the new shelf isn't straight or the finish doesn't match in my kitchen cabinet, it would bug me and I'd probably end up spending more on re-mediating the damage than I will doing it this way. 

Also, I need time to spend on my boat:



Raptor 16 sailing kayak


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Flail harder. Then read the first post in the thread regarding my insurance, fraudy McFraudster





UncleBuck said:


> You didn’t read to post 6?





Fogdog said:


> His third post on the first page does say it.


Lol, so is it in the first post, the third post or the sixth. I must admit that no, I don't read all of the drivel Buck types while drool dribbles down his chin. I wonder how he has time to post so much if he's supposedly building houses all day. Watching Buck sling insults is very much like watching Trump yell "fake news". Call others what you are. Got it.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Lol, so is it in the first post, the third post or the sixth. I must admit that no, I don't read all of the drivel Buck types while drool dribbles down his chin. I wonder how he has time to post so much if he's supposedly building houses all day. Watching Buck sling insults is very much like watching Trump yell "fake news". Call others what you are. Got it.


How often do I post between 7-3 on weekdays


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> How often do I post between 7-3 on weekdays


No clue dude. Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not your stalker.


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 16, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> LOL
> 
> Same here.
> 
> ...


That’s really cool, I’m looking for an older hobie18 but their hard to come by. Yes the dock turned out nice, it’s level lol. I’m really proud of the porch I finished this summer


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> *you're
> 
> I'm explaining my small business because it came in question. Don't like answers?


Hey thanks for the spell check, assholes are good at doing that.


----------



## Fogdog (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Lol, so is it in the first post, the third post or the sixth. I must admit that no, I don't read all of the drivel Buck types while drool dribbles down his chin. I wonder how he has time to post so much if he's supposedly building houses all day. Watching Buck sling insults is very much like watching Trump yell "fake news". Call others what you are. Got it.


Translation: "looky this unimportant detail that has nothing to do with my stupid replies. I win".

derp


----------



## Fogdog (Nov 16, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> That’s really cool, I’m looking for an older hobie18 but their hard to come by. Yes the dock turned out nice, it’s level lol. I’m really proud of the porch I finished this summer View attachment 4422086


Really nice. Beyond my ambition though. Some fencing and raised beds are more my level.


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)




----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 16, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> Really nice. Beyond my ambition though. Some fencing and raised beds are more my level.


And I dislike both of those things as they entail digging. I would need to use our free healthcare to fix my back lol


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 16, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> View attachment 4422110


All good as long as you all reach a consensus .


----------



## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> IRS wouldn't agree with you. Having your own tools is only one criteria for being an independent contractor. Is someone else telling you when to show up for work? If so, you are an employee. There are many other criteria as well. It's not so cut and dry as you may think.


Contractors get told what to do too. I'd argue it's considered a b2b transaction, working multiple sites, providing own tools, not receiving pension or benefits, negotiating pay, possibly working under a dba, ect... 

What was the job you were hiring 1099s for that the IRS said no dice?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> Contractors get told what to do too. I'd argue it's considered a b2b transaction, working multiple sites, providing own tools, not receiving pension or benefits, negotiating pay, possibly working under a dba, ect...
> 
> What was the job you were hiring 1099s for that the IRS said no dice?


Contractors bid on a job, some specifics which may be inherent in the contract that they negotiate, but outside of that they don't get told how to do the job they've won the bid for.

In that case you're asking about we were hiring various types of stagehands, from scenic carpenters who brought their own tools, to "freelance" audio engineers. The problem is that these workers were given specific tasks, assignments, and working hours they were required to comply with. Therefore the IRS deemed they should have been employees. I don't know if the company ever got fined for it, as it was actually a governmental entity, and that part of the bureaucracy was outside of my pay class.


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

No one tells me when to turn up. I tell them.

I dont "bid" on jobs either. If i want the job, often i dont, i supply a quote. If its accepted i then tell them when i can do it.
Some jobs are just "can u do this?. and they get the bill when its done. 
Not sure why its so complicated.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Contractors bid on a job, some specifics which may be inherent in the contract that they negotiate, but outside of that they don't get told how to do the job they've won the bid for.
> 
> In that case you're asking about we were hiring various types of stagehands, from scenic carpenters who brought their own tools, to "freelance" audio engineers. The problem is that these workers were given specific tasks, assignments, and working hours they were required to comply with. Therefore the IRS deemed they should have been employees. I don't know if the company ever got fined for it, as it was actually a governmental entity, and that part of the bureaucracy was outside of my pay class.


Are you still trying?

you got caught knowing absolutely nothing about how work works. trying to lie and flail your way out of it is just ugly at this point

stop embarrassing yourself


----------



## mooray (Nov 16, 2019)

Lol, ok kid.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

mooray said:


> Lol, ok kid.


I think you wandered into the wrong thread. I’m embarrassing you in the ‘warren/sanders’ thread 

this thread is for pj to get embarrassed


----------



## mooray (Nov 16, 2019)

I mean, this whole thread is about a grown man not being able to pull a nail out of his finger and paying someone else ten grand to do it....but yeah.


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> I think you wandered into the wrong thread. I’m embarrassing you in the ‘warren/sanders’ thread
> 
> this thread is for pj to get embarrassed


Im surprised that PJ doesnt know how sole traders work and thinks that people who choose to work this way are somehow not as good or successful as those that are employees or have employees.


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

mooray said:


> I mean, this whole thread is about a grown man not being able to pull a nail out of his finger and paying someone else ten grand to do it....but yeah.


screws come out easy, nails not so much. grab a nail gun and try it


----------



## mooray (Nov 16, 2019)

Any of us that have done manual things for a living have had to pull stuff out. Post that in a framers forum and see what they say about ol' UncleMary over there.


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

mooray said:


> Any of us that have done manual things for a living have had to pull stuff out. Post that in a framers forum and see what they say about ol' UncleMary over there.


pic or it didnt happen, prove ur point.


----------



## mooray (Nov 16, 2019)

I don't take pics of my owies, nor post pics on the interwebs. It's a hair on the narcissistic side.


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

mooray said:


> I don't take pics of my owies, nor post pics on the interwebs.


so no pics ..and how many nails have u driven into bone?


----------



## mooray (Nov 16, 2019)

Zero, I'm not a framer. Wood and other sharp objects? I don't know, because I don't pay ten grand to get xrays and have someone else take them out.

Okay, I'm out for the night. Got better things to do than argue with the Arkansas division of the Antifa Fan Club.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> Im surprised that PJ doesnt know how sole traders work and thinks that people who choose to work this way are somehow not as good or successful as those that are employees or have employees.


I do know how they work, and I know that it's not always legal just because they do it.

I don't think that as a universal statement. I do think that someone who calls themselves a building contractor should either hire real employees to drive nails for them, or acquire some skills in their industry which will help to keep them from nailing their own finger.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

mooray said:


> Any of us that have done manual things for a living have had to pull stuff out. Post that in a framers forum and see what they say about ol' UncleMary over there.


You can ask the fellow framers I work with

one guy put in a nail into his leg, shattered the bone, now has a titanium rod there

another gotlucky when the nail went through his thumb joint instead of shattering the bones

another had a siding nail through the hand, another stapled his hand doing tyvek

you seem all bitter about me getting the best of you. Get over it


----------



## ChiefRunningPhist (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Contractors bid on a job, some specifics which may be inherent in the contract that they negotiate, but outside of that they don't get told how to do the job they've won the bid for.
> 
> In that case you're asking about we were hiring various types of stagehands, from scenic carpenters who brought their own tools, to "freelance" audio engineers. The problem is that these workers were given specific tasks, assignments, and working hours they were required to comply with. Therefore the IRS deemed they should have been employees. I don't know if the company ever got fined for it, as it was actually a governmental entity, and that part of the bureaucracy was outside of my pay class.


Fair enough, I disagree. 


Here's some common jobs legally taxed as independent contractors... 

Accountant[_citation needed_]
Actor
Adjunct professor
Architect
Auctioneer
Author
Barber or hair stylist
Bookkeeper
Boxer
Caddie
Consultant
Courier
Court reporter
Dry cleaner
Engineer
Entertainer
Fashion model
Freelance photographer
Gardener
General contractor
General practitioner
Hairdresser
Hit-man
IT professional
Interpreter or translator
Juror
Lawn care worker
Lawyer
Lifeguard
Market stall
Mason
Massage therapist
Medical doctor
Nurse
Newspaper carrier
Paid speaker
Personal trainer
Porn star
PGA golfer
Swimming pool service technician
Private investigator
Private military company
Prostitute
Radio presenter (in radio jargon, referred to as a "swing jock")
Security guard
Internet sysop[_citation needed_]
Office clerk[_citation needed_]
Professional wrestler
Professional athlete
Real estate agent
Sales representative
Snow removal
Sports official
Stockbroker
Stripper / Exotic dancer
Talent agent
Tattoo artist
Taxi driver or limousine driver
Technical writer
Telephone and live chat psychic
Tradesman
Truck driver/operator
Tutor
User experience consultant
User interface designer





__





Independent contractor - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> this thread is for pj to get embarrassed


It is? LOL, I'm not the idiot who nailed my own finger because my business isn't successful to hire someone to do the dangerous work for me.

I made a clear decision over 10 years ago to not do anything work related as an independent contractor that is too dangerous. 

I'm an independent contractor when I rent my gear out, but I'm an employee (covered by worker's comp) when I run that gear for clients.

It's awesome when I get paid union wages to run my own gear which I rented to the end client.


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## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I do know how they work


You don’t know how fica or workman’s comp work though. Those are literally the first two things any independent contractor learns

you’re a fraud, sorry


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I do know how they work, and I know that it's not always legal just because they do it.
> 
> I don't think that as a universal statement. I do think that someone who calls themselves a building contractor should either hire real employees to drive nails for them, or acquire some skills in their industry which will help to keep them from nailing their own finger.


Why would anyone want employees for? I certainly dont, The more employees the more work you need to do. Plus more headache and paperwork.
You seem to be fixated on this "you have to hire people" thing to be legitimate...


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> It is? LOL, I'm not the idiot who nailed my own finger because my business isn't successful to hire someone to do the dangerous work for me.
> 
> I made a clear decision over 10 years ago to not do anything work related as an independent contractor that is too dangerous.
> 
> ...


Fraudy McFraudster, you’ll be hard pressed to find any f who hasn’t shot themselves with a nail

mans no one buys that you have a business when you’ve already proven you don’t know how fica or workman’s comp work

just give up already


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> Fair enough, I disagree.
> 
> 
> Here's some common jobs legally taxed as independent contractors...
> ...


Some on that list are true independent contractors. Others could be independent contractors, depending on the specifics.

One job in your list that could go either way, depending on the specifics in Security Guard. If you get a contract as a Security Guard to keep a specific business secure, but you get to decide how you will do that, and what hours you will work to make the building secure, up to your client's standards, then yes it's an independent contractor. Conversely, if you're hired by a night club as a security guard, told when to show up, told how to engage with patrons, and not allowed to leave until you are released, then you should be considered an employee. If a business chooses to engage a worker in the second type of example, that would be illegal employment. Issuing a worker a 1099 in that case would be an IRS violation, as well as a Dept of Labor violation (though they don't really police such things unless a worker files a claim).


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> Why would anyone want employees for? I certainly dont, The more employees the more work you need to do. Plus more headache and paperwork.
> You seem to be fixated on this "you have to hire people" thing to be legitimate...


This is exactly the point. You don't want legit employees because they cost more, so you call them independent contractors. You are in Aus as I recal, so I assume the laws may be different there. Here in the US we have laws to protect workers from this sort of abuse. It's pretty clear from the statements in this thread that most don't really understand the thin line that distinguishes the two. 

The fact is that because this was been a widespread problem for years, exasperated recently by app based drivers (Uber, etc), California has recently passed a law (AB5) to further clarify the distinction between employees and independent contractors. Here is the text of the assembly bill itself:





__





Bill Text - AB-5 Worker status: employees and independent contractors.






leginfo.legislature.ca.gov


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> This is exactly the point. You don't want legit employees because they cost more, so you call them independent contractors. You are in Aus as I recal, so I assume the laws may be different there. Here in the US we have laws to protect workers from this sort of abuse. It's pretty clear from the statements in this thread that most don't really understand the thin line that distinguishes the two.
> 
> The fact is that because this was been a widespread problem for years, exasperated recently by app based drivers (Uber, etc), California has recently passed a law (AB5) to further clarify the distinction between employees and independent contractors. Here is the text of the assembly bill itself:
> 
> ...


No..i dont hire anyone to work with me or on a job. Employee or contractor. Its just me. Im a Sole Trader. an Independent contractor.
I dont get why u find it so hard to understand.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> you’ve already proven you don’t know how fica or workman’s comp work
> 
> just give up already


You haven't proven anything of the sort. I've understood this distinction for decades. Lucky for me, I've never nailed my own finger however.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> No..i dont hire anyone to work with me or on a job. Employee or contractor. Its just me. Im a Sole Trader. an Independent contractor.
> I dont get why u find it so hard to understand.


Why is it hard for you to understand that to be an independent contractor in the US you legally have to fulfill a preponderance of criteria set forth by the IRS, and that many so-called "independent contractors" do not fulfill that set of criteria? In California, where I'm at there are even more stringent requirements than on the federal level. It's likely much different in Australia.


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Why is it hard for you to understand that to be an independent contractor in the US you legally have to fulfill a preponderance of criteria set forth by the IRS, and that many so-called "independent contractors" do not fulfill that set of criteria? In California, where I'm at there are even more stringent requirements than on the federal level. It's likely much different in Australia.


Changing the subject again i see.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> You haven't proven anything of the sort. I've understood this distinction for decades. Lucky for me, I've never nailed my own finger however.


You literally had no idea how fica or workman’s comp worked

congrats on looking it up though I guess, fraudy McFraudster


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> Changing the subject again i see.


She invested a lot of work into that sock puppet account and isn’t giving it up easily


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

For anyone reading this thread and have thought about being a Sole trader (independent contractor) dont listen to PJ.

You dont have to hire or subcontract people to work with you to be successful. In fact you can work less hours and make more money than being an employee in allot of cases. You set how much you want to earn. Tax system supports you as well. Its a great life.
You dont have to be dodgy like PJ suggest and anyone who is dodgy certainly isnt getting the hrly rates that a good reputation pays.
You are the salesman, the book keeper, receptionist and the shit kicker. Buck stops with you and no one is your boss.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> Changing the subject again i see.


Changing the subject? More like pointing out the laws which you don't seem to be aware of. Are you familiar with US labor law, or are you talking about Oz law?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> You literally had no idea how fica or workman’s comp worked


Your making a statement does not make it true, and repeating it over and over does not make it any truer.

Sorry, I made a mistake thinking that you are an illegitimate day laborer, which is why I mentioned worker's comp and tax dodging. It was an apparently incorrect assumption I made when I saw that you had such low level skills using power tools. It's also very common in your industry. That fact that you attempt to avoid that fact just shows that you are not being completely truthful.


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Changing the subject? More like pointing out the laws which you don't seem to be aware of. Are you familiar with US labor law, or are you talking about Oz law?


Who gives a fk. Stop bringing a different subject to my post's. No one is talking laws except you when u change the subject.


----------



## Fogdog (Nov 16, 2019)

The crop of trolls this election cycle needs an upgrade.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Your making a statement does not make it true, and repeating it over and over does not make it any truer.
> 
> Sorry, I made a mistake thinking that you are an illegitimate day laborer, which is why I mentioned worker's comp and tax dodging. It was an apparently incorrect assumption I made when I saw that you had such low level skills using power tools. It's also very common in your industry. That fact that you attempt to avoid that fact just shows that you are not being completely truthful.


Sorry, but you are a complete fraud

you claim to have a business but have no idea how fica or workman’s comp work

that set off red flags for everyone

you’re no good at this


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> you claim to have a business but have no idea how fica or workman’s comp work


I completely understand how it works. I also understand that many in your industry dodge the legal requirements, which is why I questioned your lack of workers come. You must really have a lack of basic comprehension. You're repeating of false claims is a Trumpian tactic.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> Who gives a fk. Stop bringing a different subject to my post's. No one is talking laws except you when u change the subject.


Got it. You aren't concerned with illegal employment. Noted.


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Got it. You aren't concerned with illegal employment. Noted.


You are being a complete tool.
You have been insulting my occupation, not that you know what that even is except its as a Contractor. You have been insulting me because i choose (notice the word choose please) to not employ anyone. You then imply that I must be dodgy and dishonest.
When i bring up that there are negatives to employing people you imply I'm breaking rules and laws and somehow unprofessional, which is simply untrue.
Put simply u are insulting me and I have no reason why. Im sorry if me being my own boss and only worker who chooses to only work a few hrs a day is somehow beneath you. I bet your rude to wait staff. Its your type that are.
.


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> You are being a complete tool.
> You have been insulting my occupation, not that you know what that even is except its as a Contractor. You have been insulting me because i choose (notice the word choose please) to not employ anyone. You then imply that I must be dodgy and dishonest.
> When i bring up that there are negatives to employing people you imply I'm breaking rules and laws which is simply untrue.
> Put simply u are insulting me and I have no reason why. Im sorry if me being my own boss and only worker who chooses to only work a few hrs a day is somehow beneath you. I bet your rude to wait staff. Its your type that are.
> .


I've worked as a waiter in my younger years, so I try not to be rude.

I'm sorry if you felt insulted, that was not my intent. I was more aimed at insulting that Dumb Buck fellow who doesn't have the skills to keep from nailing his own finger, and perhaps you were caught in the crosshairs.

To clarify, I have no problems with those who want to be independent contractors, so long as they aren't abusing the system while doing so. Perhaps you and Buck are not abusing the system, but many so-called independent contractors are. They often don't file taxes and of course don't have worker's comp, which is what it seemed could be the case with Buck, but perhaps not.

I have no issue if you don't hire employees. I only have an issue if you hire a day worker, and pay them cash at the end of the day, and call him an independent contractor. To me that is abuse of the worker and abuse of the system. There are laws in our country to protect against such abuses, yet they often go unpoliced. I hope that clarifies my position on things a bit. I have no reason to insult your occupation.


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## Fogdog (Nov 16, 2019)

Hey,@PJ Diaz , go back to that California forum where you are so well liked and have posted 30,000 very intelligent posts to very intelligent people.

For some reason you are incapable of doing that here. Must be some sort of tic that you have when you leave comfortable surroundings.


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I've worked as a waiter in my younger years, so I try not to be rude.
> 
> I'm sorry if you felt insulted, that was not my intent. I was more aimed at insulting that Dumb Buck fellow who doesn't have the skills to keep from nailing his own finger, and perhaps you were caught in the crosshairs.
> 
> ...


see..ur inventing stuff... Nice story with no facts.

I think you will find that underpaying staff and wage theft (which leads to tax theft) is more pronounced in larger companies, Multinationals and Internationale's.


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 16, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> see..ur inventing stuff... Nice story with no facts.
> 
> I think you will find that underpaying staff and wage theft (which leads to tax theft) is more pronounced in larger companies, Multinationals and Internationale's.



I'm sorry, which facts are you looking for exactly? I'm not talking about underpaying staff or wage theft. Not sure where you are getting that from. My issue is more about lack of protections for the abused.


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 16, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I'm sorry, which facts are you looking for exactly? I'm not talking about underpaying staff or wage theft. Not sure where you are getting that from. My issue is more about lack of protections for the abused.


and who on this thread is doing that?


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## UncleBuck (Nov 17, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I've worked as a waiter in my younger years, so I try not to be rude.
> 
> I'm sorry if you felt insulted, that was not my intent. I was more aimed at insulting that Dumb Buck fellow who doesn't have the skills to keep from nailing his own finger, and perhaps you were caught in the crosshairs.
> 
> ...


You are full of shit


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 17, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> and who on this thread is doing that?


I wouldn't know but it's a pretty rampant practice in the industry.



UncleBuck said:


> You are full of shit


Pot/kettle black much?


----------



## Davidminer (Nov 17, 2019)

Canada may have a seriously flawed healthcare system; at least if my daughters sick I'm not worried about money I can focus my attention to her.


----------



## Aussieaceae (Nov 17, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I've worked as a waiter in my younger years, so I try not to be rude.
> 
> I'm sorry if you felt insulted, that was not my intent. I was more aimed at insulting that Dumb Buck fellow who doesn't have the skills to keep from nailing his own finger, and perhaps you were caught in the crosshairs.
> 
> ...



@PJ Diaz 

Only real concern I can see regarding Sole Traders is, they pay their taxes, but most importantly they pay for insurance, especially for liability.

Workers Compensation is paid for by your employer. Who has to pay workers comp as a Sole Trader, besides the Sole Trader?
What you're referencing are contracting scams. (completely different)

So in all honesty, if a Sole Trader has liability insurance and pays their tax accordingly, who tf are you to care anyway? If they injure themselves working, who tf are you to care anyway?

Also what does any of this shit have to do with the topic of this thread?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 17, 2019)

Aussieaceae said:


> @PJ Diaz
> 
> Only real concern I can see regarding Sole Traders is, they pay their taxes, but most importantly they pay for insurance, especially for liability.
> 
> ...


I don't know anything about "Sole Traders", that seems to be an Aussie thing. I'm in the US, so I can only really speak to US labor laws. That said, if a sole trader follows the rules set forth, pays taxes on their income, and carries liability insurance, I have no problems with that. I personally think it's not wise to put yourself in a situation where you may sustain a major work related injury when you know you aren't protected with medical coverage, but hey people do stupid things all the time.

Personally I think the topic of this thread should be modified to something like "Fuck.. I nailed my own finger on the job, and don't have adequate medical coverage. That was dumb of me." Sound better? Me thinks so.


----------



## blu3bird (Nov 17, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> For anyone reading this thread and have thought about being a Sole trader (independent contractor) dont listen to PJ.
> 
> You dont have to hire or subcontract people to work with you to be successful. In fact you can work less hours and make more money than being an employee in allot of cases. You set how much you want to earn. Tax system supports you as well. Its a great life.
> You dont have to be dodgy like PJ suggest and anyone who is dodgy certainly isnt getting the hrly rates that a good reputation pays.
> You are the salesman, the book keeper, receptionist and the shit kicker. Buck stops with you and no one is your boss.


I'm going to be an owner operator sooner or later. I sure as hell am not going to hire/contract someone to drive my truck for me. First, I'm not a candy ass that's afraid of work. Second, I don't want someone in my truck that I've paid a lot of money for that doesn't care if they beat the shit out of it because they didn't pay for it.

Hey @PJ Diaz, why are you scared of work? Does it have anything to do with being a Bernie supporter?


----------



## blu3bird (Nov 17, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I don't know anything about "Sole Traders", that seems to be an Aussie thing. I'm in the US, so I can only really speak to US labor laws. That said, if a sole trader follows the rules set forth, pays taxes on their income, and carries liability insurance, I have no problems with that. I personally think it's not wise to put yourself in a situation where you may sustain a major work related injury when you know you aren't protected with medical coverage, but hey people do stupid things all the time.
> 
> Personally I think the topic of this thread should be modified to something like "Fuck.. I nailed my own finger on the job, and don't have adequate medical coverage. That was dumb of me." Sound better? Me thinks so.


It's not even really a big deal, in UncleBucks trade that shit happens all the time. It's just the cost of doing business.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 17, 2019)

blu3bird said:


> I'm going to be an owner operator sooner or later. I sure as hell am not going to hire/contract someone to drive my truck for me. First, I'm not a candy ass that's afraid of work. Second, I don't want someone in my truck that I've paid a lot of money for that doesn't care if they beat the shit out of it because they didn't pay for it.
> 
> Hey @PJ Diaz, why are you scared of work? Does it have anything to do with being a Bernie supporter?


I'm not scared of work, but I am concerned about being injured on any job which does not offer me basic medical protections in the event of an injury. That's why I don't do independent contractor gigs as a laborer. Some twenty or so years ago, I did labor based independent contractor work, and one day found myself atop of a 30-ft A-frame extension ladder with an 80 pound light above my head. I suddenly realized then and there that if I fell, the lives of my family would change forever. Now I require any labor work be hired as an employee.

I like to draw clear lines in my work. I rent my AV gear as an independent contractor, but require they hire me as an employee (through local iatse) to run the gear for events. I do that as a side-hustle, because I have a 40-hr a week regular job.


----------



## Aussieaceae (Nov 17, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I don't know anything about "Sole Traders", that seems to be an Aussie thing. I'm in the US, so I can only really speak to US labor laws. That said, if a sole trader follows the rules set forth, pays taxes on their income, and carries liability insurance, I have no problems with that. I personally think it's not wise to put yourself in a situation where you may sustain a major work related injury when you know you aren't protected with medical coverage, but hey people do stupid things all the time.
> 
> Personally I think the topic of this thread should be modified to something like "Fuck.. I nailed my own finger on the job, and don't have adequate medical coverage. That was dumb of me." Sound better? Me thinks so.


I couldn't really give a damn about someone else's finger to be honest. 9k for the bill though? Thats fucking outrageous, have to say.

Most immediate healthcare in Australia is covered by Medicare, and we don't pay a single dime for Medicare. We just sign the form and get a replacement membership card every few years. I've had the same membership since childhood and I don't think I've ever had to sign another form, besides change of address etc.
Here Medicare is considered a persons right to have and truthfully I couldn't imagine life without it.

Personally I think private health insurance should be here to stay, but not without public health cover staying as well. Public health cover given to you by the Government elected. Having quality, government controlled public healthcare is a fantastic thing and very healthy for the market.
It sets the bar in terms of quality care and coverage. Making private health insurance companies forced to compete by offering better services for the premiums paid.

Last time I had to go to hospital was for fucking up my ankle. I didn't pay for any of it and wasn't expected to. I did pay $20 for the crotches though. Because they were meant to be returned but people always kept them. That payment was not an obligation either, but they do ask.

The point I'm trying to make, is if I had no Government cover as a citizen, then I may well have been billed 9k for my ankle as well.

Being legally obligated to have Government cover is one thing and in my opinion is the right thing. But being forced to buy private healthcare or pay for the whole bill seems absurd to me. 
Where's the social security?


----------



## blu3bird (Nov 17, 2019)

Aussieaceae said:


> I couldn't really give a damn about someone else's finger to be honest. 9k for the bill though? Thats fucking outrageous, have to say.
> 
> Most immediate healthcare in Australia is covered by Medicare, and we don't pay a single dime for Medicare. We just sign the form and get a replacement membership card every few years. I've had the same membership since childhood and I don't think I've ever had to sign another form, besides change of address etc.
> Here Medicare is considered a persons right to have and truthfully I couldn't imagine life without it.
> ...


It's not free though. Your Medicare is paid for with taxes (if you work and have taxable income). So if you don't work, someone who does paid taxes for that Medicare. It might have been "no cost to you" but it definitely wasn't free. Whether you work or not is none of my business and I don't care.

I'm not judging you, but it's absurd to me that you believe you shouldn't have any responsibility to provide your own healthcare or pay the medical bills you incur.

I guess I'm the exact opposite, I don't feel like anyone, especially the government is responsible to provide for me


----------



## Aussieaceae (Nov 17, 2019)

blu3bird said:


> It's not free though. Your Medicare is paid for with taxes (if you work and have taxable income). So if you don't work, someone who does paid taxes for that Medicare. It might have been "no cost to you" but it definitely wasn't free. Whether you work or not is none of my business and I don't care.
> 
> I'm not judging you, but it's absurd to me that you believe you shouldn't have any responsibility to provide your own healthcare or pay the medical bills you incur.
> 
> I guess I'm the exact opposite, I don't feel like anyone, especially the government is responsible to provide for me


That's exactly right, we do pay for it through taxes. Is that not fair?

Let's forget about you and me for a second. What about the ones who can't pay and / or don't work? Infants, elderly, injured, the sick etc etc.?
Shit happens all the time.
Why shouldn't they have cover and why shouldn't the government have a responsibility to cover them? Especially healthcare of all things and education is a very close #2.

I absolutely do have responsibility for my own healthcare. Through voting at election, working and paying taxes. Just so happens some of it goes towards everyone else's healthcare as well.

Seriously what is wrong with cover for all?

Obamacare was much the same principle as Australia, but was blocked by the Republicans countless times. Look at the hot mess it was when they were done with it and it's still a benefit to some.

I'm not judging either, but how much tax dollars go towards the military budget every year? Surely "some" of that massive budget could towards something more meaningful for every citizen?


----------



## hanimmal (Nov 17, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> Really? Not sure if you're being sarcastic there lol.
> 
> Just because you contribute to the economy doesn't mean you deserve a subsidy. Garunteed if yacht subsidies were dropped you'd see ~0 impact in the much needed yacht market lol (sarcastic) also, not much employment there either, not much impact on GDP, or really anything I wouldn't think.
> 
> ...


I could see something about a nations need to have a thriving boat industry being important to have. But do disagree with them using this excuse as a way to give the wealthy yet another luxury tax break.


Aussieaceae said:


> That's exactly right, we do pay for it through taxes. Is that not fair?
> 
> Let's forget about you and me for a second. What about the ones who can't pay and / or don't work? Infants, elderly, injured, the sick etc etc.?
> Shit happens all the time.
> ...


I think most people would actually like to have universal healthcare, but a big road block is a lot of unions and employers have used their ability to provide healthcare as a way to offset income increases for the employees and they do not trust the government to set it up well enough that they don't lose out on what they have been negotiating for a long time. Couple that with Republicans demonizing any program not aimed at helping Wealthy White Heterosexual Males as socialism it will be actively used to oust Democrats.

And when that happens we don't have another Jon McCain in the Republican party to step up and save our healthcare a second time.


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 17, 2019)

blu3bird said:


> I'm going to be an owner operator sooner or later. I sure as hell am not going to hire/contract someone to drive my truck for me. First, I'm not a candy ass that's afraid of work. Second, I don't want someone in my truck that I've paid a lot of money for that doesn't care if they beat the shit out of it because they didn't pay for it.
> 
> Hey @PJ Diaz, why are you scared of work? Does it have anything to do with being a Bernie supporter?


So your not successful either. If you don’t hire someone it seems your an unsuccessful failure in the assholes world of success. I know he’s a success because he’s mentioned it over and over again. I’m enjoying watching him flail about trying to justify his assholish statements. Thank god the line of fools just keeps coming as others finally leave.......boy I miss tty lol


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## Budley Doright (Nov 17, 2019)

blu3bird said:


> It's not free though. Your Medicare is paid for with taxes (if you work and have taxable income). So if you don't work, someone who does paid taxes for that Medicare. It might have been "no cost to you" but it definitely wasn't free. Whether you work or not is none of my business and I don't care.
> 
> I'm not judging you, but it's absurd to me that you believe you shouldn't have any responsibility to provide your own healthcare or pay the medical bills you incur.
> 
> I guess I'm the exact opposite, I don't feel like anyone, especially the government is responsible to provide for me


Just throwing this out there but let’s just say ......... you show up at work, oh my, the gates locked and there’s a notice on the gate that their in receivership. Now your out of work, no problem you say, you’ll get a job quickly. New employer hires you but new benefits have a 30- 180 day wait period. Kids, wife (god forbid) gets sick, real fucking sick, now you have no insurance, need to stay home with kids, no work............. see where this is headed? Not a pretty picture. And yup I saw it happen to a friend of mine in the states ......... tragic.


----------



## hanimmal (Nov 17, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> Just throwing this out there but let’s just say ......... you show up at work, oh my, the gates locked and there’s a notice on the gate that their in receivership. Now your out of work, no problem you say, you’ll get a job quickly. New employer hires you but new benefits have a 30- 180 day wait period. Kids, wife (god forbid) gets sick, real fucking sick, now you have no insurance, need to stay home with kids, no work............. see where this is headed? Not a pretty picture. And yup I saw it happen to a friend of mine in the states ......... tragic.


It happens a lot, and is totally a reason Obamacare tried to stop it by having emergency sign up periods for displaced workers. That coupled with the Federal law that your employer must allow you to keep your insurance for up to 18 months after you are canned.


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## Budley Doright (Nov 17, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> It happens a lot, and is totally a reason Obamacare tried to stop it by having emergency sign up periods for displaced workers. That coupled with the Federal law that your employer must allow you to keep your insurance for up to 18 months after you are canned.


But does the 18 months apply when the company goes into receivership? I’m thinking with my buddy it happened much faster than that, and it was a few years ago. He lost his wife and he went blind, it was really a horror.


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## hanimmal (Nov 17, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> But does the 18 months apply when the company goes into receivership? I’m thinking with my buddy it happened much faster than that, and it was a few years ago. He lost his wife and he went blind, it was really a horror.


It would allow them to sign up right away, but in a situation like that I know I would likely just take the gamble and go without spending that money if I could too. It sucks, sorry to hear about your friend. I personally would love universal coverage, but also accept reality of us getting it in this 4 years with what is at stake with Trump. Let the Democrats lay out all the Trump/Russia trolling mess to the nation, getting the positions around the government filled up with qualified people, fixing our Alliances after the trade wars, and all that without going to war with Russia/NorthKorea/Iran/Syria... And hopefully fix DACA because I don't think they will be able to fix the immigration crisis without losing the senate/house unfortunately.

Then 4 years later, let Biden retire and then have the big Democratic issues that desperately need big solutions like environmental issues, gun legislation (maybe do what Harris wanted and executive order AR15 banning new sales and mail order from out of country purchases). But who knows, what will happen will happen. 

Sorry for tangent, not sure how I got on it.


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## Budley Doright (Nov 17, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> I could see something about a nations need to have a thriving boat industry being important to have. But do disagree with them using this excuse as a way to give the wealthy yet another luxury tax break.
> 
> I think most people would actually like to have universal healthcare, but a big road block is a lot of unions and employers have used their ability to provide healthcare as a way to offset income increases for the employees and they do not trust the government to set it up well enough that they don't lose out on what they have been negotiating for a long time. Couple that with Republicans demonizing any program not aimed at helping Wealthy White Heterosexual Males as socialism it will be actively used to oust Democrats.
> 
> And when that happens we don't have another Jon McCain in the Republican party to step up and save our healthcare a second time.


I did a (little) bit of reading and from what I gather it’s a state thing re sales tax limits to entice people to choose say New York over Florida to purchase the boat. I think State sales tax should be kept the same (no limits) on higher end as small items. Perhaps even an added luxury tax given the resources used to build maintain larger items. It gets way more complicated than my brain to figure out lol.


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## Budley Doright (Nov 17, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> It would allow them to sign up right away, but in a situation like that I know I would likely just take the gamble and go without spending that money if I could too. It sucks, sorry to hear about your friend. I personally would love universal coverage, but also accept reality of us getting it in this 4 years with what is at stake with Trump. Let the Democrats lay out all the Trump/Russia trolling mess to the nation, getting the positions around the government filled up with qualified people, fixing our Alliances after the trade wars, and all that without going to war with Russia/NorthKorea/Iran/Syria... And hopefully fix DACA because I don't think they will be able to fix the immigration crisis without losing the senate/house unfortunately.
> 
> Then 4 years later, let Biden retire and then have the big Democratic issues that desperately need big solutions like environmental issues, gun legislation (maybe do what Harris wanted and executive order AR15 banning new sales and mail order from out of country purchases). But who knows, what will happen will happen.
> 
> Sorry for tangent, not sure how I got on it.


I agree that you guys are going to be divided on this for many years to come......So your talking about signing up for no wait time private insurance? And I appolagize as I know nothing about how your system works, it is filled with horror stories though. But in my scenario your not working because you have to now be with the kids while mom’s not available. Also your last paycheque is not there, it’s behind the closed gate . I’m really just saying that yes it’s fine when everything is running smooth but with out universal health insurance shit could go bad pretty quick.


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## hanimmal (Nov 17, 2019)

Absolutely it is such a devastating thing when people get sick here until really Obamacare stopped the insurance companies from being able to just dump people who get sick. It was actually how Elizibeth Warren got her start in politics, she was a great voice back when this was really hammering people into bankruptcy. 

And yes, now you can immediately sign up for coverage, but idk if they would be able to get it for free, so a lot of people would just not get it and hope they don't get sick, which is how it was here forever. When it gets really bad, the emergency rooms will take you in and treat you for everything, but the bill will bankrupt people generally. It is pretty shitty setup and needs to be fixed. But naming all the things that desperately need to get done turns into a REM song.


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## hanimmal (Nov 17, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> Absolutely it is such a devastating thing when people get sick here until really Obamacare stopped the insurance companies from being able to just dump people who get sick. It was actually how Elizibeth Warren got her start in politics, she was a great voice back when this was really hammering people into bankruptcy.
> 
> And yes, now you can immediately sign up for coverage, but idk if they would be able to get it for free, so a lot of people would just not get it and hope they don't get sick, which is how it was here forever. When it gets really bad, the emergency rooms will take you in and treat you for everything, but the bill will bankrupt people generally. It is pretty shitty setup and needs to be fixed. But naming all the things that desperately need to get done turns into a REM song.


Like an idiot I used the wrong video, it was bothering me and I had to find the right one.........


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## UncleBuck (Nov 17, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I don't do independent contractor gigs as a laborer.


You don’t do independent contractor gigs in any form you fraud

you don’t even know how fica or workman’s comp work


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## knucklehead bob (Nov 17, 2019)

I bet he knows how to keep his dick skinners out of the line of fire from a nail gun . . . . .


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## Budley Doright (Nov 17, 2019)

knucklehead bob said:


> I bet he knows how to keep his dick skinners out of the line of fire from a nail gun . . . . .


Shit happens, I slipped and screwed a sheet metal screw in my finger and had to reverse the drill and unscrew it .


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## UncleBuck (Nov 17, 2019)

knucklehead bob said:


> I bet he knows how to keep his dick skinners out of the line of fire from a nail gun . . . . .


I’m not sure we’d keep getting million dollar contracts from the top two architecture firms in boulder county if we sucked so bad at it but maybe this dim bulb racist knows something the rest of us don’t


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## UncleBuck (Nov 17, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> Shit happens, I slipped and screwed a sheet metal screw in my finger and had to reverse the drill and unscrew it .


I was setting up drip irrigation this spring, drilling 1/16th holes into 1/2” pvc when the bit slipped over the pvc and into my finger behind it, which was stabilizing the pipe as I drilled

thing went straight through my finger. Had to reverse it too. Luckily it only caught tissue

seems like a bunch of soft handed know nothings who’ve never worked a day in their lives know the trades better than tradesmen do


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 17, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> I was setting up drip irrigation this spring, drilling 1/16th holes into 1/2” pvc when the bit slipped over the pvc and into my finger behind it, which was stabilizing the pipe as I drilled
> 
> thing went straight through my finger. Had to reverse it too. Luckily it only caught tissue
> 
> seems like a bunch of soft handed know nothings who’ve never worked a day in their lives know the trades better than tradesmen do


I worked as a skilled tradesman for many years and have the scars to prove it, though over a decade in the office got rid of the calluses. Sometimes when I was stuck behind my desk sitting on my ass I used to wish I was still out on the shop floor moving my ass! When ya do physical stuff ya get hurt, so do athletes, the only man who does not make a mistake is a man who does nothing. When ya use power tools for a living mistakes often hurt and not just your mistakes either!


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## Budley Doright (Nov 17, 2019)

DIY-HP-LED said:


> I worked as a skilled tradesman for many years and have the scars to prove it, though over a decade in the office got rid of the calluses. Sometimes when I was stuck behind my desk sitting on my ass I used to wish I was still out on the shop floor moving my ass! When ya do physical stuff ya get hurt, so do athletes, the only man who does not make a mistake is a man who does nothing. When ya use power tools for a living mistakes often hurt and not just your mistakes either!


Working on the railroad I’m amazed you still have all your digits lol.


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## Budley Doright (Nov 17, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> I was setting up drip irrigation this spring, drilling 1/16th holes into 1/2” pvc when the bit slipped over the pvc and into my finger behind it, which was stabilizing the pipe as I drilled
> 
> thing went straight through my finger. Had to reverse it too. Luckily it only caught tissue
> 
> seems like a bunch of soft handed know nothings who’ve never worked a day in their lives know the trades better than tradesmen do


I’ve been to emerg a few times in my working career, working around the farm is an accident waiting to happen lol.


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## knucklehead bob (Nov 17, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> I’m not sure we’d keep getting million dollar contracts from the top two architecture firms in boulder county if we sucked so bad at it but maybe this dim bulb racist knows something the rest of us don’t


I' m bright enough to know how to keep my appendages out of the line of fire .

And no , I'm not going to kill myself .

Although , you just might if you don't watch what the fuck you are doing . . . .


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## Budley Doright (Nov 17, 2019)

*if you’ve never been hurt on a construction site and after said “fuck I shouldn’t have done that” then your a pussy lol. *


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## UncleBuck (Nov 17, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> I’ve been to emerg a few times in my working career, working around the farm is an accident waiting to happen lol.


That nail in the bone was one of two times I’ve had to go to the hospital for a work injury

the other time I was cutting back a caulk line. Knife jumped off the caulk line and about5 feet back into my hand, went in full hog

I quietly asked my colleague for a scrap of drop cloth, wrapped it around my hand, and drove to the hospital

7 stitches and 2 hours later I was back on the job. Customer never knew what happened.

the nearest hospital was a teaching hospital. Got stitched up by a smoking hot med student. Bill was only$600


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## UncleBuck (Nov 17, 2019)

knucklehead bob said:


> I' m bright enough to know how to keep my appendages out of the line of fire .
> 
> And no , I'm not going to kill myself .
> 
> Although , you just might if you don't watch what the fuck you are doing . . . .


Ok you’re smarter than every single veteran framer in the construction industry, all of whom have inevitably nailed themselves at one time or another

go with that, don’t bother listening to everyone who has actually worked in the trades mr.soft hands


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 17, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Personally I think the topic of this thread should be modified to something like "Fuck.. I nailed my own finger on the job, and don't have adequate medical coverage.


But he does, you should read the thread you have derailed and keep complaining in.


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 17, 2019)

blu3bird said:


> It's not free though. Your Medicare is paid for with taxes (if you work and have taxable income). So if you don't work, someone who does paid taxes for that Medicare. It might have been "no cost to you" but it definitely wasn't free. Whether you work or not is none of my business and I don't care.
> 
> I'm not judging you, but it's absurd to me that you believe you shouldn't have any responsibility to provide your own healthcare or pay the medical bills you incur.
> 
> I guess I'm the exact opposite, I don't feel like anyone, especially the government is responsible to provide for me


Its so inexpensive to, Comes out of our tax returns so it feels like its free as we dont have to physically pay it. So for us it feels like its free.
The govt is there to govern for you. Why should that not include schools and healthcare?
One of the main benefits of socialised healthcare is the downward pressure it puts on private insurance policies prices and the upward pressure for inclusions. Its why our private medical insurance cost is so much less than yours.
You put 10,000 aussies in a room and ask for anyone to raise their hand if they want to get rid of medicare you wont get a hand raised, even from any doctors in the crowed. Insurance companies and big Pharma is wanting it to go though, wonder why?
Ever met an aussie on this site say it should go? Nope, cause it works.


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 17, 2019)

For anyone wondering what the true cost of medicare is. Here is a copy of my Tax assessment showing where my taxs went. I think some of you may find it interesting. Notice defence is less spending than the important stuff except for schooling, be nice if that was swapped around.


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## Budley Doright (Nov 17, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> But he does, you should read the thread you have derailed and keep complaining in.


Every thread he’s in turns into him being an asshole... don’t expect any difference here.


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## Budley Doright (Nov 17, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> For anyone wondering what the true cost of medicare is. Here is a copy of my Tax return showing where my taxs went. I think some of you may find it interesting. Notice defence is less spending than the important stuff except for schooling.
> View attachment 4422512


FFS, I pay that every two weeks ;(


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 17, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> FFS, I pay that every two weeks ;(


Thats why i love being a contractor. Tax system is set up for us to spend not pay.
But not why i posted the assesment.


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## Budley Doright (Nov 17, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> Thats why i love being a contractor. Tax system is set up for us to spend not pay.
> But not why i posted the assesment.


Well it depressed me lol. Why did you post it?


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 17, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> Well it depressed me lol. Why did you post it?


Keep in mind Australians dont pay any income tax untill we earn over 19k. (helps protect low income earners)

Can see the $ for $ cost of Socialised Healthcare. I would guess that Americans would have the Defence budget and Fuel subsidy's as higher priority's. But i could be wrong.


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 17, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> Working on the railroad I’m amazed you still have all your digits lol.


I used to "ride herd" on 200 twenty something newly hired apprentices before I retired, used to tell'em that if they lost a finger or a hand, just to pass the oxyacetylene torch over it a couple of times and they'd be fine!  Cauterizes the wound and sterilizes it at the same time. Part of my job was training these young "pups" and if I caught one throwing his torch under a boxcar to the other side...


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## Budley Doright (Nov 17, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> Keep in mind Australians dont pay any income tax untill we earn over 19k. (helps protect low income earners)
> 
> Can see the $ for $ cost of Socialised Healthcare. I would guess that Americans would have the Defence budget and Fuel subsidy's as higher priority's. But i could be wrong.


Don’t think your wrong. The military “defence” budget has always been huge and in some respects that’s a good thing IMO, and I thank them for it. The tax break they gave the rich could have taken care of a big chunk of universal health care I think I read.


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 17, 2019)

And just so PJ knows what a lazy bastard I am. I'm already home from work. left home at about 9am and home by 12:30, $235 thanks for coming. 
Tis a good life.


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 17, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> Don’t think your wrong. The military “defence” budget has always been huge and in some respects that’s a good thing IMO, and I thank them for it. The tax break they gave the rich could have taken care of a big chunk of universal health care I think I read.


Well be hard for America to do social healthcare properly. They probably need a multi pronged approach. Shave the Fuel subsidy a little might be a start, maybe consolidate a few military bases, Stop invading placers for big business. Going to have to be a new tax or levy in there somewhere to of cause (Buck said early on in the thread something along the lines "tax me more so I dont have to pay Private insurance".)
I think that there needs to be a discussion on how Public healthcare and its hospitals can be used to profit off Private patients as well. That happens extensively here.

A huge benefit of the way the Aussie system works is the the PBS (Prescription benefits scheme). Put simply the majority of Prescription drugs are heavily subsidised by the govt. Guessing that also means that the govt being in effect a large purchaser of drugs (and the one who regulates the drugs) gets a better deal.
Another benefit is that when the Private healthcare companies want to put up their premiums it needs govt to Ok it. They cannot increase premiums just to suit shareholders. They need legitimate reasons.

Private and Public can work hand in hand to deliver a decent system at a fair and reasonable price.


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## blu3bird (Nov 18, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> Its so inexpensive to, Comes out of our tax returns so it feels like its free as we dont have to physically pay it. So for us it feels like its free.
> The govt is there to govern for you. Why should that not include schools and healthcare?
> One of the main benefits of socialised healthcare is the downward pressure it puts on private insurance policies prices and the upward pressure for inclusions. Its why our private medical insurance cost is so much less than yours.
> You put 10,000 aussies in a room and ask for anyone to raise their hand if they want to get rid of medicare you wont get a hand raised, even from any doctors in the crowed. Insurance companies and big Pharma is wanting it to go though, wonder why?
> Ever met an aussie on this site say it should go? Nope, cause it works.


Don't get me wrong, I know I probably sound like I don't think everyone should have insurance/health coverage, that's not what I believe though. I don't mind paying some extra for less fortunate folks like physically and mentally disabled and especially the elderly. Helping these people is just a given, no questions asked.

The thing is though, your Medicare tax is inexpensive, ours isn't going to be. American government has a problem allocating funds to where they really should be going and not spending money wisely and spending too much. I also think we have a lot of people that use more resources than they contribute to, and I think that needs to be fixed somehow.


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## blu3bird (Nov 18, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> For anyone wondering what the true cost of medicare is. Here is a copy of my Tax assessment showing where my taxs went. I think some of you may find it interesting. Notice defence is less spending than the important stuff except for schooling, be nice if that was swapped around.
> View attachment 4422512


That's almost what I pay every week, between $400-500 is taken from my check depending on how many hours I work.


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## Budley Doright (Nov 18, 2019)

blu3bird said:


> That's almost what I pay every week, between $400-500 is taken from my check depending on how many hours I work.


Yup me too if I include everything re Canada pension etc. Over a 1/3rd of gross . Im really trying to have a healthier lifestyle so I can get it back re a long pension draw lol.


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 18, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> Yup me too if I include everything re Canada pension etc. Over a 1/3rd of gross . Im really trying to have a healthier lifestyle so I can get it back re a long pension draw lol.


The best revenge is a long life Dudley  Make em pay!


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 18, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> see..ur inventing stuff... Nice story with no facts.


Here are some facts, from this page: https://dpeaflcio.org/programs-publications/issue-fact-sheets/misclassification-of-employees-as-independent-contractors/


*The Extent of Misclassification*
_Accurate data on the extent of employer misclassification is unavailable because employers do not voluntarily report misclassification nor is there a government agency able to conduct comprehensive research. Accordingly, one must examine both state and federal estimates to get an idea of the widespread nature of misclassification. As state audits generally only target two percent of employers and many cases of misclassification occur in the “underground” economy, estimates likely underrepresent the actual number of misclassified workers.[20]
_

_According to a 2012 list of state audits compiled by the National Employment Law Project, by extrapolating from audit data of misclassified workers to account for employers in the entire state there were an estimated 368,685 misclassified workers in Illinois, between 125,725 and 248,206 in Massachusetts, 704,785 in New York, between 54,000 and 459,000 in Ohio, 580,000 in Pennsylvania, and 214,000 in Virginia.[21]_
_The DOL commissioned a study in 2000 to determine the extent of misclassification in the unemployment insurance system. The study found that up to 30 percent of audited firms had employees misclassified as independent contractors.[22]_
_Misclassification occurs in nearly all major industries, including in the delivery, trucking, building maintenance, janitorial, agricultural, home health care, and childcare industries. Misclassification rates are especially high in construction. In 2007, the Fiscal Policy Institute released a study on misclassified construction workers in New York City, estimating that 50,000 (one in four) workers were misclassified as independent contractors or employed by construction companies completely off the books.[23]_
_The IRS Form SS-8, “Determination of Employee Work Status for Purposes of Federal Employment Taxes and Income Tax Withholding,” provides employers and workers with an opportunity to receive IRS guidance or an internal audit of the business. The IRS estimates as many as 85 percent of all Form SS-8 filers submit the form because they want to contest their treatment as independent contractors.__[24]_

30% of firms have misclassified independent contractors as employees. It's literally millions of workers in the US who are misclassified based on the research conducted. As stated above "misclassification rates are especially high in construction." I'm not making this up. Facts are facts.


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 18, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I'm not making this up. Facts are facts.


Me either.








11 Companies Accused of Wage Theft - Wall St. Watchdog


Wage theft is not new, but it is becoming a more visible issue within the economy. Here are 11 companies from across the spectrum that were accused.




www.cheatsheet.com





But has zero to do with the thread. 0.


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 18, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> Me either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I think it does. Point being that something like Medicare For All would be great for independant contractors, who are not protected by the same rights in the US as employees.

I've never debated that wage theft is a thing either. In fact I've gone to employers in the past who have shorted me, and demanded that they pay up. Here's a protip: if they ever tell you to call someone else to figure out why you weren't paid the right amount or on time, tell them that your next call with be to the department of labor to file a grievance for non-payment of wages. You will see a check shortly after. Where I'm at if employers steal your wages, you are entitled to full days wages for every day until they pay you in full (up to a maximum of 30 days). I personally know workers who have collected thousands of dollars from their employer through this process. Just call the NLRB, or file online here: https://www.nlrb.gov/cases-decisions/filing


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 18, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Medicare For All would be great for independant contractor's


and 90% of everyone else.


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 26, 2019)

Vote to cut your own throat! Racist morons, cut your own nose off to spite your face.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Obamacare in Trump country*




President Donald Trump may be incredibly popular in Kentucky, but some people there admit Obamacare has not exactly been a disaster, and aren't keen on Trump's plan to overhaul the program.


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 26, 2019)

I was watching a program the other night. $1000 a month for Insulin in America, $1000 for a years supply in Canada. Americans are going to Canada for insulin.....
What a fkd up health care when American companies profiteer over their own population. Big Pharma and the Health insurance are in each others pockets.


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## Communist Dreamer (Nov 26, 2019)

The OP brings up a good point. Private insurance must end and be replaced with eventual single payer universal health care. But, what many want is Medicare for all. That just won't work. It still leaves the insurance companies in place as the equivalent of an escrow service, like what happens right now with Medicare.
The solution is a type of system similar to the VA, but without the mess, and restrictions. Where the government sets floors and ceilings for every aspect of medical care, from doctor pay to prescription. 
Medicare for all will just make things worse, because insurance and pharmeutical companies will then have government protection to allow even higher prices. Just the justification for their billing will have less oversight. Meaning the government gets the bill directly, and you pay more taxes as a result.


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## Fogdog (Nov 26, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> The OP brings up a good point. Private insurance must end and be replaced with eventual single payer universal health care. But, what many want is Medicare for all. That just won't work. It still leaves the insurance companies in place as the equivalent of an escrow service, like what happens right now with Medicare.
> The solution is a type of system similar to the VA, but without the mess, and restrictions. Where the government sets floors and ceilings for every aspect of medical care, from doctor pay to prescription.
> Medicare for all will just make things worse, because insurance and pharmeutical companies will then have government protection to allow even higher prices. Just the justification for their billing will have less oversight. Meaning the government gets the bill directly, and you pay more taxes as a result.


Why do you claim insurance and pharma will raise prices over what they are already doing?


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## Communist Dreamer (Nov 26, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> Why do you claim insurance and pharma will raise prices over what they are already doing?


Because government has bigger pockets. If I'm wrong and they don't, why not make it impossible? Why do you even want that as an option?


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## UncleBuck (Nov 26, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> Because government has bigger pockets. If I'm wrong and they don't, why not make it impossible? Why do you even want that as an option?


Every nation with government backed healthcare has a government that negotiates prices for medical procedures on an annual basis 

Oh and welcome new member


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## Communist Dreamer (Nov 26, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Every nation with government backed healthcare has a government that negotiates prices for medical procedures on an annual basis
> 
> Oh and welcome new member


If we did Medicare for all, we'd be the first one who doesn't. We're also the only first world country without what you say, some sort of universal health care.
You act like as if we did government backed healthcare that'd would be a given.
But given we don't do what every other government does in our situation, it's not given. Although I wish it were.
Oh and I'm not a "new" member. It says just member. Do you have reading comprehension problems like that other guy Fogdog who cornered me?
My comments and questions are sincere, and with respect. I'd like the same in return. I don't think that's too much to ask.
I hope you have a nice rest of the evening.


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## UncleBuck (Nov 26, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> If we did Medicare for all, we'd be the first one who doesn't. We're also the only first world country without what you say, some sort of universal health care.
> You act like as if we did government backed healthcare that'd would be a given.
> But given we don't do what every other government does in our situation, it's not given. Although I wish it were.
> Oh and I'm not a "new" member. It says just member. Do you have reading comprehension problems like that other guy Fogdog who cornered me?
> ...


It’s a given, new member


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## Communist Dreamer (Nov 26, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> It’s a given, new member


Then why is the American populace so stupid and wants Medicare for all? When they mean they want VA for all? Some things which seem obvious, aren't.
Also, why don't you give proper punctuation and sentence structure if you're this know it all expert that you claim to be? What is obvious, you aren't Cummings.


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## Fogdog (Nov 26, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> Because government has bigger pockets. If I'm wrong and they don't, why not make it impossible? Why do you even want that as an option?


England, Canada, Sweden, Germany etc. All pay less and the government negotiates prices. Why do you think the US wouldn't? Is any candidate who supports what they call Medicare for All saying that uncontrolled costs are part of their heath care plans?


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 26, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> Then why is the American populace so stupid


Probably the cuts in education and a low % that travel.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 26, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> Then why is the American populace so stupid and wants Medicare for all? When they mean they want VA for all? Some things which seem obvious, aren't.
> Also, why don't you give proper punctuation and sentence structure if you're this know it all expert that you claim to be? What is obvious, you aren't Cummings.


Did it hurt? When you fell from heaven (and suffered a debilitating brain bleed which rendered you permanently mentally impaired)


----------



## Communist Dreamer (Nov 26, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> England, Canada, Sweden, Germany etc. All pay less and the government negotiates prices. Why do you think the US wouldn't? Is any candidate who supports what they call Medicare for All saying that uncontrolled costs are part of their heath care plans?


But that's how Medicare works. Government foolishly pays what the doctors and pharm companies want. Whereas VA has government controlled doctors and hospitals, owned and run by the government for its patients.
The government does uncontrolled costs all the time, after all they paid $435 for a hammer. You can get at least two titanium ones for that.


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 26, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> But that's how Medicare works. Government foolishly pays what the doctors and pharm companies want. Whereas VA has government controlled doctors and hospitals, owned and run by the government for its patients.
> The government does uncontrolled costs all the time, after all they paid $435 for a hammer. You can get at least two titanium ones for that.


Incorrect.
I live In Australia, we have Medicare. Doctors and Pharma and even the Private Health insurance companies have to negotiate with the Federal Govt for any prices rises. If Pharma want to sell their wares in the country then they better sit down and do a deal. If they want their drugs listed on the PBS and therefore sell more then they better do an even better deal.


----------



## Communist Dreamer (Nov 26, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Did it hurt? When you fell from heaven (and suffered a debilitating brain bleed which rendered you permanently mentally impaired)


You still haven't answered mine. Why do the majority of fake socialists who have no idea how socialism works, also claim to want something they also don't know anything about? Hence Medicare for all isn't what they really want, but ask for it. If they got what they asked for, it would be how I said.
Of course that won't happen, you're right about that. But that's the reason why they aren't getting what they really want either. Maybe if they knew how to ask correctly, they'd better affect change.


----------



## Aussieaceae (Nov 26, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> Then why is the American populace so stupid and wants Medicare for all? When they mean they want VA for all? Some things which seem obvious, aren't.
> Also, why don't you give proper punctuation and sentence structure if you're this know it all expert that you claim to be? What is obvious, you aren't Cummings.


Universal Healthcare absolutely works and is much, much cheaper. 
Privatization of healthcare is morally wrong and not only because it's peoples health on the line. Because inevitably big business has the power to directly influence the price and market demand.

It's important for Private Healthcare to exist, but never without Public Universal Healthcare as well.


----------



## Fogdog (Nov 26, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> But that's how Medicare works. Government foolishly pays what the doctors and pharm companies want. Whereas VA has government controlled doctors and hospitals, owned and run by the government for its patients.
> The government does uncontrolled costs all the time, after all they paid $435 for a hammer. You can get at least two titanium ones for that.


Yes, we know the healthcare system is broken. The plans I've seen from the candidates who propose a Medicare for all plan include cutting those costs because the government will have the power of the purse and can negotiate prices. You have to do better explaining why costs will spiral upward other than your current "because I think it will" argument. Unless, that is, you like being laughed at.

I too am skeptical that they will achieve the cost cuts they propose but I don't see why prices will necessarily explode upward. This is why I'm more supportive of including a Medicare option for those who want it. Medicare should at the very least be able to show a skeptical public that they can provide better coverage at lower costs than private insurance plans. In fact, I see no reason why we should eliminate private coverage. If Medicare is as they say, able to provide equal or better coverage than private insurance at equal or lower costs then it's a winner.


----------



## Communist Dreamer (Nov 26, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> Incorrect.
> I live In Australia, we have Medicare. Doctors and Pharma and even the Private Health insurance companies have to negotiate with the Federal Govt for any prices rises. If Pharma want to sell their wares in the country then they better sit down and do a deal. If they want their drugs listed on the PBS and therefore sell more then they better do an even better deal.


But that's not how Medicare works here. Our government lets Doctors and Pharma set their own reasonable prices to which the private companies accept as reasonable, not what are reasonable prices in reality. The reason they do that, is our government allows it.
The closest thing we have to your Medicare, which again, is different from ours, is the VA.
I'm not saying what's wrong about what happens with you, but what's wrong about us. I don't think you understand how stupid the average American is.


----------



## Communist Dreamer (Nov 26, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> Yes, we know the healthcare system is broken. The plans I've seen from the candidates who propose a Medicare for all plan include cutting those costs because the government will have the power of the purse and can negotiate prices. You have to do better explaining why costs will spiral upward other than your current "because I think it will" argument. Unless, that is, you like being laughed at.
> 
> I too am skeptical that they will achieve the cost cuts they propose but I don't see why prices will necessarily explode upward. This is why I'm more supportive of including a Medicare option for those who want it. Medicare should at the very least be able to show a skeptical public that they can provide better coverage at lower costs than private insurance plans. In fact, I see no reason why we should eliminate private coverage. If Medicare is as they say, able to provide equal or better coverage than private insurance at equal or lower costs then it's a winner.


Because they're going to do like what they did with so called Obama Care. His original plan was great, but like all great ideas, they're only as good as implemented. Obama Care ended up exactly like I said, and was way too expensive, so that's why they eventually got rid of it.
I don't want that happening when we eventually have the inevitable true universal healthcare.
If that too bombs, the aftermath is going to become way worse than you can ever imagine. Which means we'll never again in my lifetime have another shot, so we can't screw it up.
If you don't agree with eliminating private insurance, why don't you give that same flack the OP who has that as the title, and just me?


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 26, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> You still haven't answered mine. Why do the majority of fake socialists who have no idea how socialism works, also claim to want something they also don't know anything about? Hence Medicare for all isn't what they really want, but ask for it. If they got what they asked for, it would be how I said.
> Of course that won't happen, you're right about that. But that's the reason why they aren't getting what they really want either. Maybe if they knew how to ask correctly, they'd better affect change.


Speaking of fake, welcome new member


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 26, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> Because they're going to do like what they did with so called Obama Care. His original plan was great, but like all great ideas, they're only as good as implemented. Obama Care ended up exactly like I said, and was way too expensive, so that's why they eventually got rid of it.
> I don't want that happening when we eventually have the inevitable true universal healthcare.
> If that too bombs, the aftermath is going to become way worse than you can ever imagine. Which means we'll never again in my lifetime have another shot, so we can't screw it up.
> If you don't agree with eliminating private insurance, why don't you give that same flack the OP who has that as the title, and just me?


Obamacare is the law of the land though, new member


----------



## Communist Dreamer (Nov 26, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Speaking of fake, welcome new member


You know, you're like one of those jack in the box. The first time you pop out and say something, it shocks you. Then after the second or so time, no one cares anymore and the little kids you tried to scare just laugh.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 26, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> You know, you're like one of those jack in the box. The first time you pop out and say something, it shocks you. Then after the second or so time, no one cares anymore and the little kids you tried to scare just laugh.


Member since: Saturday


----------



## Communist Dreamer (Nov 26, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Obamacare is the law of the land though, new member


 I thought Mein Drumpf eliminated the whole point of it, the mandate, so if it's the law of the land, it's been at the very least, neutered.


----------



## Communist Dreamer (Nov 26, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Member since: Saturday


Member since: Friday.

Is that how we play? I'm trying real hard to figure out the rules here.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 26, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> Member since: Friday.
> 
> Is that how we play? I'm trying real hard to figure out the rules here.


----------



## Fogdog (Nov 26, 2019)

Aussieaceae said:


> Universal Healthcare absolutely works and is much, much cheaper.
> Privatization of healthcare is morally wrong and not only because it's peoples health on the line. Because inevitably big business has the power to directly influence the price and market demand.
> 
> It's important for Private Healthcare to exist, but never without Public Universal Healthcare as well.


Yes, I'm fully aware that Australians are happy with their healthcare system. The problem dear Brutus lies within ourselves. Changing the healthcare system is a political one and not technical.


----------



## Communist Dreamer (Nov 26, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> View attachment 4427563


You seem troubled. Are you ok?
Here's what's up.
After reading the TOS, it suggested posting first in the introduction thread, and then posting in what interests you.
I'm into technology, but that section has been very quiet after answering all the threads I was interested there.
So I got bored and turned on the radio. Flipping through stations I stumbled upon Dennis Prager, and got a bit upset.
Went on Wikipedia to look him up. Saw a few of his videos on YT, got more pissed.
Then I decided to post here, since this seemed to be the only section to vent and no one else was home.
I then calmed down, answered a few mores posts that interest my beliefs.
Now that you know, seriously are you ok?


----------



## Fogdog (Nov 26, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> I thought Mein Drumpf eliminated the whole point of it, the mandate, so if it's the law of the land, it's been at the very least, neutered.


No, it's still around and helping tens of millions. It would have been better and lower cost if Republicans hadn't monkeyed with it but it's proven to be very robust.


----------



## Communist Dreamer (Nov 26, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> No, it's still around and helping tens of millions. It would have been better and lower cost if Republicans hadn't monkeyed with it but it's proven to be very robust.


Forbes says only 36% of Americans are aware the mandate still exists. You don't appear to be one of them. How sad.
Mandate, neutered. Again reading comprehension problems.


----------



## Aussieaceae (Nov 26, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> Yes, I'm fully aware that Australians are happy with their healthcare system. The problem dear Brutus lies within ourselves. Changing the healthcare system is a political one and not technical.


There's room for improvement here. 
Yes, I'm fully aware the likely majority of members here are American. Doesn't mean foreigners can't debate it either when the context is relevant.
Example: Medicare Australia was privatized by the Abbot Government in 2014. Only weeks ago a bill was put forward pushing for mandatory private health insurance, luckily blocked in the Senate. There are many far righters here and we get the same shit. Since 2014 our healthcare has taken a bit of a dive too. Less hospital beds, nurses, doctors etc etc, list goes on.

Privatization is a political issue and in my honest opinion, crucial to the debate.


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 27, 2019)

Aussieaceae said:


> There's room for improvement here.
> Yes, I'm fully aware the likely majority of members here are American. Doesn't mean foreigners can't debate it either when the context is relevant.
> Example: Medicare Australia was privatized by the Abbot Government in 2014. Only weeks ago a bill was put forward pushing for mandatory private health insurance, luckily blocked in the Senate. There are many far righters here and we get the same shit. Since 2014 our healthcare has taken a bit of a dive too. Less hospital beds, nurses, doctors etc etc, list goes on.
> 
> Privatization is a political issue and in my honest opinion, crucial to the debate.


I think that was Medibank, not Medicare that was privatised. That was our first private Health fun, (govt owned)


----------



## Aussieaceae (Nov 27, 2019)

Apologies too, meant Medibank Australia, not Medicare. 


Lucky Luke said:


> I think that was Medibank, not Medicare that was privatised. That was our first private Health fun, (govt owned)


Lol good timing, thanks for correcting me first.


----------



## Lucky Luke (Nov 27, 2019)

Makes you wonder where the money is going.


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 27, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> Makes you wonder where the money is going.
> 
> View attachment 4427597


Don’t wonder to much lol. Everyone that is part of the private healthcare system is making out like bandits. The fact seems that lots are very happy with their private insurance (those that can afford it) and not willing to forgo that with a public system fraught with unknowns. The wait times and lack of proper care stories that filter down from Canada to the states may be part of the fear. It’s, IMO, a losing battle to insist everyone be forced to give up something they are very happy with, only to step into something that may offer less than what they have, with an unknown cost weighted to those that now pay out of pocket to subsidize those that can’t. I could be wrong but places with a two tiered healthcare system seem, as a whole, to be pretty awful for the lower tiers.


----------



## hanimmal (Nov 27, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> Because government has bigger pockets. If I'm wrong and they don't, why not make it impossible? Why do you even want that as an option?


Government doesn't have bigger pockets than all of America.


Communist Dreamer said:


> If we did Medicare for all, we'd be the first one who doesn't. We're also the only first world country without what you say, some sort of universal health care.
> You act like as if we did government backed healthcare that'd would be a given.
> But given we don't do what every other government does in our situation, it's not given. Although I wish it were.
> Oh and I'm not a "new" member. It says just member. Do you have reading comprehension problems like that other guy Fogdog who cornered me?
> ...


Are you a sock puppet account?


Communist Dreamer said:


> You seem troubled. Are you ok?
> Here's what's up.
> After reading the TOS, it suggested posting first in the introduction thread, and then posting in what interests you.
> I'm into technology, but that section has been very quiet after answering all the threads I was interested there.
> ...


I can buy that, welcome. You should know every site like this gets flooded with Russian/Foreign paid trolls that come and go on a regular cycle, your coming in seems to have coincided with a new flood of 'new members' that just happen to start flooding us with propaganda. Welcome to the politics forum, I suggest using the ignore button (if you are not just here to troll), the trolling does get pretty intense.


Lucky Luke said:


> Makes you wonder where the money is going.
> 
> View attachment 4427597


https://www.syberscribe.com.au/blog/19-mind-blowing-medical-advances-in-the-past-8-years/
America is subsidizing the worlds medical innovations.


----------



## Communist Dreamer (Nov 27, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> Government doesn't have bigger pockets than all of America.
> 
> Are you a sock puppet account?
> 
> ...


1) Sometimes it seems that way.

2) What's this sock puppet account you speak of? I do love some sock puppets though, Sifl and Ollie was one of my favorite shows. Capitalism is why it's not on DVD, and I need to put up with edited poor quality multi-parts on YT. Boo! 

3) I'm sorry to hear about that. The only person who's really bugged me for no reason has been that guy with the homophobic avatar. Unless he steps up his game, I don't see ignore needed, for the time being. Anyways, thank you.

4) 6, 9. 14, and 16 I hadn't heard about.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 27, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> 1) Sometimes it seems that way.
> 
> 2) What's this sock puppet account you speak of? I do love some sock puppets though, Sifl and Ollie was one of my favorite shows. Capitalism is why it's not on DVD, and I need to put up with edited poor quality multi-parts on YT. Boo!
> 
> ...


What I like about you is that you are clearly just a legitimate and normal account


----------



## Communist Dreamer (Nov 27, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> What I like about you is that you are clearly just a legitimate and normal account


Glad to hear I'm warming up to you. If your lover behind you ever leaves, can you put in a good word for me? He's quite hot!


----------



## hanimmal (Nov 27, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> 1) Sometimes it seems that way.


If I could put an embargo on statements: "People say", "It seems/feels", stuff like that. It is used as a technique to make whatever they are trying to sell more legitimate without actually proving anything. The people who would trick you use making everything 'seem' as bleak as possible so that their warm fuzzy idea looks like a better alternative. Real life is pretty messy, but it is mostly very easy and boring, which is why we have survived as a species and thrived like we have. 

2. Sock puppets: Propaganda Trolls will make/use several accounts designed to take up multiple positions on a forum and use them to manipulate people into beliveing whatever they are paid to by pushers of hate like Brad Parscale who use it to create a false narrative to trick people into thinking Trump is a reasonable choice. It is pretty nefarious and not just Russia that Trump has invited to attack our citizens. False information websites like Epoch times are just a larger part of this troll of hateful propaganda.

3. No offense, but being so new to the forum, you are going to be view very skeptically, and will be attacked from multiple angles to find inconsistencies. Best of luck, this place is very informative and has lots of great perspectives. Hope you turn out to not be another troll that is exposed for a fraud after a couple days/weeks starts begging to be kicked out for your ideas and finally stops posting when they realize they will not be kicked just for being a troll with no credibility.


----------



## Communist Dreamer (Nov 27, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> ...


1) If money is so great, why do those in third world countries who live in abject poverty not have depression? Something in rich first world countries causes that, which is absent there, even with all our money and breakthroughs in science.

2) Another reason Capitalism sucks. I'm not for sale.

3) Whatever happens, happens. I'll try to stay. My life is real busy, and this right now is a break. If I'm not too busy with my real job, I'll hopefully pop in now and then to say hi to those who care.
My research sometimes really engrosses me to the point that's all I think about, though.


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 27, 2019)

“1) If money is so great, why do those in third world countries who live in abject poverty not have depression? Something in rich first world countries causes that, which is absent there, even with all our money and breakthroughs in science.”
What now? They don’t suffer from depression? I find that hard to believe.


----------



## Communist Dreamer (Nov 27, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> “1) If money is so great, why do those in third world countries who live in abject poverty not have depression? Something in rich first world countries causes that, which is absent there, even with all our money and breakthroughs in science.”
> What now? They don’t suffer from depression? I find that hard to believe.


According to WHO, clinical depression affects 4% of the world population. Yet the US have 9%. That's over double. Which means something other than not having your needs met, is contributing to depression instead. Agrarian societies have the least depression.


----------



## hanimmal (Nov 27, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> 1) If money is so great, why do those in third world countries who live in abject poverty not have depression? Something in rich first world countries causes that, which is absent there, even with all our money and breakthroughs in science.


You need to have enough time to reflect on how boring life is when it is as easy as it is today in America to waste time on being depressed. We get to watch too much of what is going on around the world and it is depressing when you don't get to also experience all the joy being had in-between.


Communist Dreamer said:


> According to WHO, clinical depression affects 4% of the world population. Yet the US have 9%. That's over double. Which means something other than not having your needs met, is contributing to depression instead. Agrarian societies have the least depression.


Because they are in the field busting their hump, and relaxing after harvest.


----------



## Fogdog (Nov 27, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> Don’t wonder to much lol. Everyone that is part of the private healthcare system is making out like bandits. The fact seems that lots are very happy with their private insurance (those that can afford it) and not willing to forgo that with a public system fraught with unknowns. The wait times and lack of proper care stories that filter down from Canada to the states may be part of the fear. It’s, IMO, a losing battle to insist everyone be forced to give up something they are very happy with, only to step into something that may offer less than what they have, with an unknown cost weighted to those that now pay out of pocket to subsidize those that can’t. I could be wrong but places with a two tiered healthcare system seem, as a whole, to be pretty awful for the lower tiers.


The last time we had the chance, Democrats pushed for adding Medicare as an option for people to choose as one option among private plans that qualified for the Affordable Care Act (AKA Obamacare). It was blocked by Republicans and a handful of conservative Democrats. 

This time around, it looks like political support for the Medicare option will make it available as a choice for people to purchase instead of private insurance. If done right (in other words, if Republicans don't fuck it up), Medicare will have the chance to show people how much better it is than private. This would go a long way towards addressing concerns people have about a government healthcare system in the US. Cheaper, better or easier. All they need to do is perform better in one of these three categories and equal private in the others to make Medicare more attractive.


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 28, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> According to WHO, clinical depression affects 4% of the world population. Yet the US have 9%. That's over double. Which means something other than not having your needs met, is contributing to depression instead. Agrarian societies have the least depression.


Perhaps it’s due to not a whole lot of cheetos and mars bars available in 3rd world countries, just sayin.


----------



## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 28, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> What's this sock puppet account you speak of? I do love some sock puppets though, Sifl and Ollie was one of my favorite shows. Capitalism is why it's not on DVD, and I need to put up with edited poor quality multi-parts on YT. Boo!


*What is unusual is this is a pot forum with a big emphasis on growing and you have no posts related to pot.* Most people here had their fill of the growing sections and moved on to politics, your post history pattern is very unusual in a few ways, aside from your adherence to the repeatedly failed political/economic ideology of Marxist/Leninist communism. Right now every country on the planet (with a couple of noted exceptions) uses a blend of capitalism and socialism.

Perhaps communism might be an economic option 30 to 50 years down the road when almost everybody will be thrown out of work by technological advances, but not right now. People still want power and in a communist system corruption finds a home in the political system as aggressive and ambitious people strive to get ahead of their neighbors. If you are a communist you are a naive one and from your posts you appear to be immature and lacking real life experience. Capitalism is an evolutionary economic system, trade has been around for a hundred thousand years and paleolithic people engaged in it, it respects and is compatible with our evolutionary history and needs. When machines take care of our needs and things lose their value (as they rapidly are), then perhaps a system like communism might be desirable to maintain social stability and even survival, be we ain't there yet and it's gonna be a hard journey until we arrive.

You are far better off today and in many ways richer than the king of England was in 1938 because of capitalistic technological progress and free trade. You have better healthcare, a better diet, live in a more comfortable home, have more and better information, and even drive a better car than he did. Even with the 1% ripping us off, there are mounds of perfectly good products infront of most houses being thrown away during the spring heavy garbage pick up. My father's generation would have been appalled at the waste and at what people throw away or give to goodwill stores. In the modern west we live in abundance because of trade and technology, even though 1% own the vast majority of the wealth. To see the "miracle" of capitalism rapidly uplifting a society one need look no further than China, when they dropped communism in favor of capitalism. The communist party still runs China, but it's just the name of the party, not the ideology that they follow, they are capitalists and China was a capitalist society since prehistoric times. Interestly, China has had about 40 years of communism from 1948 until the late 1980's and about 40 years of capitalism after that, notice any differences?

*Do you think you are converting any body to communism here?* Perhaps you should study some Adam Smith before moving on to Marx and Ingles. *Economics is a study of human nature first, Smith knew this, Marx missed the point.* You appear to be incredibly naive and your post history and lack of interest in cannabis makes you suspect. We get all kinds of Trumper neo nazi and revenge troll socks (false accounts) who figure they are being clever, most here look upon them as victims of the Dunning Kruger effect.

I don't want to discuss this bullshit, but I suggest you read a little economics and especially history. Read more and discuss less.
*Do you smoke pot? Grow pot?* If not, why are you on a pot forum going on about a dead ideology that has been proven to be worse than useless in our existing state of technological development? Do you have mental health issues (seriously)?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 28, 2019)

DIY-HP-LED said:


> *What is unusual is this is a pot forum with a big emphasis on growing and you have no posts related to pot.* Most people here had their fill of the growing sections and moved on to politics, your post history pattern is very unusual in a few ways...
> 
> ...
> 
> *...Do you smoke pot? Grow pot?* If not, why are you on a pot forum going on about a dead ideology that has been proven to be worse than useless in our existing state of technological development? Do you have mental health issues (seriously)?


We could say the same for Uncle Buck, no?


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 28, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> We could say the same for Uncle Buck, no?


I have more and better threads on growing pot than you ever will, fraudy McFraudster


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 28, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> I have more and better threads on growing pot than you ever will, fraudy McFraudster


I wonder why I've never seen them. Care to link us to one of these masterpieces?


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 28, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I wonder why I've never seen them. Care to link us to one of these masterpieces?


maybe for the same reason you just happened to have never seen the dozens of white power posts from that neo nazi you defended

Go find them yourself you fucking fraud


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 28, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> maybe for the same reason you just happened to have never seen the dozens of white power posts from that neo nazi you defended
> 
> Go find them yourself you fucking fraud


Yeah, I didn't think you really had anything to link to anyway. I didn't defend anyone. Condemning one action does not automatically support another. You see the world as binary. Try to broaden your perspective, and you may see more clearly.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 28, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Yeah, I didn't think you really had anything to link to anyway. I didn't defend anyone. Condemning one action does not automatically support another. You see the world as binary. Try to broaden your perspective, and you may see more clearly.


I do though

You’re not worth it

You’re a fraud


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 28, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> I do though
> 
> You’re not worth it
> 
> You’re a fraud


I'm a fraud because I'm not a Republican but disagree with your hate filled rhetoric? I'd say that your logic is quite backwards. I speak in support of compassion and empathy, while you speak in support of hate and division. Hate and division amongst US citizens is exactly what our foes want. You only serve to fuel their fire. Fraudy-Mc-Pot-Kettle-Black you are.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 28, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I'm a fraud because I'm not a Republican but disagree with your hate filled rhetoric? I'd say that your logic is quite backwards. I speak in support of compassion and empathy, while you speak in support of hate and division. Hate and division amongst US citizens is exactly what our foes want. You only serve to fuel their fire. Fraudy-Mc-Pot-Kettle-Black you are.


“Race matters when it comes to immigration. Only 4% of immigrants are white!”

“Stop picking on that neo nazi!”

You are a fraud


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 28, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> “Race matters when it comes to immigration. Only 4% of immigrants are white!”
> 
> “Stop picking on that neo nazi!”
> 
> You are a fraud


Your remarks only prove to show that you do not care about truth, you care more about rhetoric designed to promote dissent. That's exactly the same playbook that Trump follows.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 28, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Your remarks only prove to show that you do not care about truth, you care more about rhetoric designed to promote dissent. That's exactly the same playbook that Trump follows.


Those are your remarks. One is a direct quote.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 29, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Those are your remarks. One is a direct quote.


Again your blatant attempts to skew the truth are straight out of Trump's playbook. Clearly you do not care about truth, you care more about promoting propaganda and fueling hate. You attached quotes to something I never even said in an attempt to make them look like my words. Pathetic.


----------



## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 29, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> 1) If money is so great, why do those in third world countries who live in abject poverty not have depression? Something in rich first world countries causes that, which is absent there, even with all our money and breakthroughs in science.
> 
> 2) Another reason Capitalism sucks. I'm not for sale.
> 
> ...


If anything brings a communist utopia it will be this, capitalistically driven technological change, getting there won't be pretty though. The rate of change is accelerating over time and in 30 to 50 years the world of employment will be much different than it is today. CEO of corporations might be vulnerable too, as will artists, musicians, writers and other creative types employment.
*Automation entering white-collar work*




Jobs you may have thought safe from automation, like mortgage brokers or paralegals, may soon be replaced by intelligent software


----------



## Communist Dreamer (Nov 29, 2019)

DIY-HP-LED said:


> If anything brings a communist utopia it will be this, capitalistically driven technological change, getting there won't be pretty though. The rate of change is accelerating over time and in 30 to 50 years the world of employment will be much different than it is today. CEO of corporations might be vulnerable too, as will artists, musicians, writers and other creative types employment.
> *Automation entering white-collar work*
> 
> 
> ...


That's why I support communism. The system of capitalism will just let those replaced with intelligent software to get left to die on the streets. Those from the current most cushy white collar jobs won't survive very well, since they're used to a life of others taking care of them.
For every job taken away by automation, a certain proportion of the capitalist's profit should go to the displaced worker. That's what should happen, but with uncaring greedy capitalists running the world, it can't happen.


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## UncleBuck (Nov 29, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Again your blatant attempts to skew the truth are straight out of Trump's playbook. Clearly you do not care about truth, you care more about promoting propaganda and fueling hate. You attached quotes to something I never even said in an attempt to make them look like my words. Pathetic.


You spent 17 minutes trying to gaslight me into thinking your exact words werent your exact words?

ok, ruski


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 29, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> That's why I support communism. The system of capitalism will just let those replaced with intelligent software to get left to die on the streets. Those from the current most cushy white collar jobs won't survive very well, since they're used to a life of others taking care of them.
> For every job taken away by automation, a certain proportion of the capitalist's profit should go to the displaced worker. That's what should happen, but with uncaring greedy capitalists running the world, it can't happen.


When enough intelligent and educated people are out of work, then things will change, idle hands are the devil's playground. Look around, right now most people are living in nice homes and are living the good life, such people are not revolutionaries or want much change, if any. In 30 to 50 years things will be much different and change will come sooner or later. We are seeing just the first indications of this technological change in societies now and some countries are looking at minimum income programs. Capitalism won't go away though, it will cause and forment the technological change that might lead to it's further decline. All of this is pretty far down the road though, and any changes will be incremental, evolutionary, technologically driven and hopefully modulated by democratic forces. Those voters will have to be educated and properly informed with truthful information, laws and emotional development programs will also have to reduce social division based on race, ethnicity and fear.

Racism and bigotry must be addressed in *the education system* and through hate and speech crime laws. How the internet is structured and regulated must change too, the western democracies need a firewall and an international alliance like NATO to deal with disinformation and crime. *Right now the problem is to get rid of Trump and the republicans and all efforts should be directed there, save the communist pipe dream until after the primary goal is accomplished*. If the democrats win the house senate and presidency *H.R.-1* will remove the GOP's unfair advantages in elections and hate and speech laws, along with *emotional education to increase empathy* will ease social division caused by hate, fear, racism and bigotry.

*Get rid of Trump and the republicans first, then worry about your "cause", America must survive first before it can thrive and flourish.* Stay more in the present and don't worry about the distant future, focus on current issues, problems and their solutions, as opposed to proven unworkable ideologies. If Trump wins the presidency this coming election you'll be worrying about what your going to eat the next day and political ideologies won't matter as much under a dictatorship. Trump would turn America into another North Korea within a decade through treason, corruption and incompetence, the GOP would make you his slaves and have already proven who they are loyal to.


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## Communist Dreamer (Nov 29, 2019)

DIY-HP-LED said:


> When enough intelligent and educated people are out of work, then things will change, idle hands are the devil's playground. Look around, right now most people are living in nice homes and are living the good life, such people are not revolutionaries or want much change, if any. In 30 to 50 years things will be much different and change will come sooner or later. We are seeing just the first indications of this technological change in societies now and some countries are looking at minimum income programs. Capitalism won't go away though, it will cause and forment the technological change that might lead to it's further decline. All of this is pretty far down the road though, and any changes will be incremental, evolutionary, technologically driven and hopefully modulated by democratic forces. Those voters will have to be educated and properly informed with truthful information, laws and emotional development programs will also have to reduce social division based on race, ethnicity and fear.
> 
> Racism and bigotry must be addressed in *the education system* and through hate and speech crime laws. How the internet is structured and regulated must change too, the western democracies need a firewall and an international alliance like NATO to deal with disinformation and crime. *Right now the problem is to get rid of Trump and the republicans and all efforts should be directed there, save the communist pipe dream until after the primary goal is accomplished*. If the democrats win the house senate and presidency *H.R.-1* will remove the GOP's unfair advantages in elections and hate and speech laws, along with *emotional education to increase empathy* will ease social division caused by hate, fear, racism and bigotry.
> 
> *Get rid of Trump and the republicans first, then worry about your "cause", America must survive first before it can thrive and flourish.* Stay more in the present and don't worry about the distant future, focus on current issues, problems and their solutions, as opposed to proven unworkable ideologies. If Trump wins the presidency this coming election you'll be worrying about what your going to eat the next day and political ideologies won't matter as much under a dictatorship. Trump would turn America into another North Korea within a decade through treason, corruption and incompetence, the GOP would make you his slaves and have already proven who they are loyal to.


Consider that more of a half like. I agree with a lot, what I don't agree with is Democrats will make things any different. A lot of people don't understand my philosophy that Democrats to you are the good cop, while Republicans are the bad cop. With Republicans it's the opposite.
I examined the issues. It's like either side has something to say I partially agree with.
For example, Republicans are for religious freedom, I'm just not for their type, which excludes all non-Christian like religions.
Democrats say Religion has gone too far, but really mean only Christians.
I don't like the Christian philosophy either, but my whole family is that. I love my family, and wouldn't want them harm, but how most Democrats talk, they want to exterminate them.
With our current system, there's always some bad guy, and the two sides just become more and more extreme. I don't like to think that's the case. I don't see bad people, only good people who had a rough time and are lashing out. 
It might be a pipe dream, but it's the only dream which keeps me sane everyday.
I hope that makes sense?


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## hanimmal (Nov 29, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> That's why I support communism. The system of capitalism will just let those replaced with intelligent software to get left to die on the streets. Those from the current most cushy white collar jobs won't survive very well, since they're used to a life of others taking care of them.
> For every job taken away by automation, a certain proportion of the capitalist's profit should go to the displaced worker. That's what should happen, but with uncaring greedy capitalists running the world, it can't happen.


Do you understand that when we pay taxes our money goes right to exactly what you are talking about. Capitalism is not really anything other than humans buying and selling their goods and services based on their own decision making process. 



Communist Dreamer said:


> Consider that more of a half like. I agree with a lot, what I don't agree with is Democrats will make things any different. A lot of people don't understand my philosophy that Democrats to you are the good cop, while Republicans are the bad cop. With Republicans it's the opposite.
> I examined the issues. It's like either side has something to say I partially agree with.


Who is this magic politician that gets everything on their agenda done? How many issues have you truly studied? Like which legislation can you point to to discuss why you disagree with it.



Communist Dreamer said:


> For example, Republicans are for religious freedom, I'm just not for their type, which excludes all non-Christian like religions.
> Democrats say Religion has gone too far, but really mean only Christians.
> I don't like the Christian philosophy either, but my whole family is that. I love my family, and wouldn't want them harm, but how most Democrats talk, they want to exterminate them.


What are you basing this on? How do Democrats say Religion has gone too far with? Like they believe too much crazy stuff, or they are breaking laws of separation of church and state kind of stuff? Because I would argue that is a policy issue and the religious people make it a religion issues. They really mean we want to inject our faith into the legislating of women's uteruses. 



Communist Dreamer said:


> With our current system, there's always some bad guy, and the two sides just become more and more extreme. I don't like to think that's the case. I don't see bad people, only good people who had a rough time and are lashing out.
> It might be a pipe dream, but it's the only dream which keeps me sane everyday.
> I hope that makes sense?


People have been tricked into thinking the world is far worse than it is by a constant barrage of hate and panic filled storylines.


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 29, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> Consider that more of a half like. I agree with a lot, what I don't agree with is Democrats will make things any different. A lot of people don't understand my philosophy that Democrats to you are the good cop, while Republicans are the bad cop. With Republicans it's the opposite.
> I examined the issues. It's like either side has something to say I partially agree with.
> For example, Republicans are for religious freedom, I'm just not for their type, which excludes all non-Christian like religions.
> Democrats say Religion has gone too far, but really mean only Christians.
> I don't like the Christian philosophy either, but my whole family is that. I love my family, and wouldn't want them harm, but how most Democrats talk, they want to exterminate them.


I don't believe you are a communist, I think you're a Trumper troll here to play games while believing you are clever. Your comments about the democrats wanting to "exterminate" Christians is just plain bullshit. If you are left of center you would be a democrat, I think you are a republican Trumper and a sock puppet account. *You do agree that Trump is an incompetent unfit traitor don't you?*

There are not "good people on both sides", one side is driven by racism and bigotry and supports treason. You're trying to find a non existent fence to sit on, if you are radically left as you claim, you would not be making such assertions. That drivil about Christian suppression by the democrats and both sides are the same was very revealing. *Do you think Trump is an incompetent traitor? Do you think he should be impeached?*[/QUOTE]


----------



## Communist Dreamer (Nov 29, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> Do you understand that when we pay taxes our money goes right to exactly what you are talking about. Capitalism is not really anything other than humans buying and selling their goods and services based on their own decision making process.


That's not capitalism, what you're describing is a free to semi-free market system. That existed for way longer than capitalism took over. Feudalism does the same. Would you call Feudalism a form of Capitalism?

The definition of capitalism: Capitalism is the exploitation and forced appropriation by capitalists of the surplus value produced by workers. Workers under capitalism are compelled by their lack of ownership of the means of production to sell their labor power to the capitalist for less than the full value of the goods they produce.

Market Economy: A market economy is an economic system in which economic decisions and the pricing of goods and services are guided by the interactions of a country's individual citizens and businesses.

Capitalism, Feudalism, and communism all have the characteristics above, but only capitalism is capitalism.


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 29, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> That's not capitalism, what you're describing is a free to semi-free market system. That existed for way longer than capitalism took over. Feudalism does the same. Would you call Feudalism a form of Capitalism?
> 
> The definition of capitalism: Capitalism is the exploitation and forced appropriation by capitalists of the surplus value produced by workers. Workers under capitalism are compelled by their lack of ownership of the means of production to sell their labor power to the capitalist for less than the full value of the goods they produce.
> 
> ...


*Is Trump a traitor? 
Is Trump unfit for office? 
Has the GOP betrayed their oath of office and the nation?
Time to get real here.*


----------



## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 29, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> Do you understand that when we pay taxes our money goes right to exactly what you are talking about. Capitalism is not really anything other than humans buying and selling their goods and services based on their own decision making process.
> 
> 
> Who is this magic politician that gets everything on their agenda done? How many issues have you truly studied? Like which legislation can you point to to discuss why you disagree with it.
> ...


This guy is a poser, a Trumper troll in my opinion. Ask him some core questions about the current situation like I did. He won't answer directly but uses the "good people on both sides drivil". He says the democrats want to exterminate his family because they are "anti christian". You would think he would be for Bernie at least, but not a peep, all pie in the sky.


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## Communist Dreamer (Nov 29, 2019)

DIY-HP-LED said:


> I don't believe you are a communist, I think you're a Trumper troll here to play games while believing he is clever. Your comments about the democrats wanting to "exterminate" Christians is just plain bullshit. If you are left of center you would be a democrat, I think you are a republican Trumper and a sock puppet account. *You do agree that Trump is an incompetent unfit traitor don't you?*
> 
> There are not "good people on both sides", one side is driven by racism and bigotry and supports treason. You're trying to find a non existent fence to sit on, if you are radically left as you claim, you would not be making such assertions. That drivil about Christian suppression by the democrats and both sides are the same was very revealing. *Do you think Trump is an incompetent traitor? Do you think he should be impeached?*


[/QUOTE]

All presidents should've been impeached for one reason or another. Trump is a capitalist through and through, which in some ways does make him worse.
I see good in everyone.
Capitalism itself is an offense against all humanity, so in that case he is a traitor.
I don't participate in judging any politician, none of them have our interests at heart, and only their selfish desires of greed drive them.
I'm an activist, what politicians do is no concern of mine, because only when we revolt against our masters are we free.
If the Democrats aren't waging war on religions they hate, why did they make this every exclusive resolution? Religion has no bearing on one's morality.


https://secular.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/DNC-Resolution-on-the-Nonreligious-Demographic.pdf


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## hanimmal (Nov 29, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> That's not capitalism, what you're describing is a free to semi-free market system. That existed for way longer than capitalism took over. Feudalism does the same. Would you call Feudalism a form of Capitalism?


I really don't dwell on definitions of humanities and the ways they are different, so couldn't really tell you.



Communist Dreamer said:


> The definition of capitalism: Capitalism is the exploitation and forced appropriation by capitalists of the surplus value produced by workers. Workers under capitalism are compelled by their lack of ownership of the means of production to sell their labor power to the capitalist for less than the full value of the goods they produce.
> 
> Market Economy: A market economy is an economic system in which economic decisions and the pricing of goods and services are guided by the interactions of a country's individual citizens and businesses.
> 
> Capitalism, Feudalism, and communism all have the characteristics above, but only capitalism is capitalism.


"exploitation and forced appropriation" that is nonsense. If people want to find something different to do they are able to find new jobs/carreers, if they want to go into their own business and have an idea, they can. If they need money, if they can show people who have excess capital to allow them to spend in return for some interest paid back, they can get it far faster than waiting until they saved up the money first.

And of course they have to work for less than the goods they produce will sell for, their are a whole host of things that the excess goes into paying for that is not just paying into rich guys pockets.

Any 'system' that has humans involved will eventually be corrupted. The trick is to understand this and to not let any one group of humans to have too much power of another group.


Communist Dreamer said:


> All presidents should've been impeached for one reason or another. Trump is a capitalist through and through, which in some ways does make him worse.
> I see good in everyone.
> Capitalism itself is an offense against all humanity, so in that case he is a traitor.


"offense against all humanity" How so?

a


Communist Dreamer said:


> I don't participate in judging any politician, none of them have our interests at heart, and only their selfish desires of greed drive them.


Or they just don't actually know you or care about you and go about dealing with the problems they can vote on in front of them. The cool thing with our country, if you actually feel the way you do and are a citizen, you can pick up a broom and run for office. I have known too many humans to think that there are not enough who actually want to help make the world a better place and are willing to do the work to make it so, to think that if there was some vast conspiracy that is not the invention of a handful of crooks trying to stay out of trouble or scam the system.


Communist Dreamer said:


> I'm an activist, what politicians do is no concern of mine, because only when we revolt against our masters are we free.
> If the Democrats aren't waging war on religions they hate, why did they make this every exclusive resolution? Religion has no bearing on one's morality.
> https://secular.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/DNC-Resolution-on-the-Nonreligious-Demographic.pdf


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/09/08/are-democrats-really-godless-numbers-say-mostly-not-rap-still-sticks/

Not buying what you are selling on Democrats war on religion. The Democrats being the Not Only Wealthy White Heterosexual Male agenda in our government understand that things like education are no place for religion, we have separation of church and state for a reason. Decisions and spending should not be in any way connected to religion one way or the other. People can choose for themselves if they want to have a particular religious views thrust on them (ideally).

Oh and why? Because there are people who are pissed that Religion has intruded itself into government so much. But who at the end of the day gives a shit what some random group of people put into a letter to the DNC to hopefully get them to acknowledge. Anyone can do that kind of thing, I am sure you would be able to find all kinds of crazy things people have tried to get done.


DIY-HP-LED said:


> This guy is a poser, a Trumper troll in my opinion. Ask him some core questions about the current situation like I did. He won't answer directly but uses the "good people on both sides drivil". He says the democrats want to exterminate his family because they are "anti christian". You would think he would be for Bernie at least, but not a peep, all pie in the sky.









Trump invited a lot of countries to attack us.


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## Communist Dreamer (Nov 29, 2019)

DIY-HP-LED said:


> This guy is a poser, a Trumper troll in my opinion. Ask him some core questions about the current situation like I did. He won't answer directly but uses the "good people on both sides drivil". He says the democrats want to exterminate his family because they are "anti christian". You would think he would be for Bernie at least, but not a peep, all pie in the sky.


Bernie is a statist lunatic. Now if Bill Maher ran, I'd consider him. I agree with a lot he says, even though at times he goes a bit over the top.


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## UncleBuck (Nov 29, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> Bernie is a statist lunatic. Now if Bill Maher ran, I'd consider him. I agree with a lot he says, even though at times he goes a bit over the top.


What is weather today in Moscow, comrade?


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 29, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> All presidents should've been impeached for one reason or another. Trump is a capitalist through and through, which in some ways does make him worse.
> I see good in everyone.
> Capitalism itself is an offense against all humanity, so in that case he is a traitor.
> I don't participate in judging any politician, none of them have our interests at heart, and only their selfish desires of greed drive them.
> ...


You are a Trumper troll sock puppet posing as a communist and trying to sell the idea that all sides are bad and that Trump is no worse than other politicians. Trump is a traitor to the USA and those who support him at this point in time are traitors too, racist traitors who hate some Americans more than they love their country. You are no activist, if you were, you would be supporting Bernie who is the most ideologically to the left, you haven't mentioned the current political state of affairs at all, except when forced to, and then your answers were evasive to say the least.

*Should Trump be impeached and removed from office for bribery?
Is Trump a traitor to the USA?
Are the GOP betraying their oaths of office and the country?
If all politicians are corrupt, who is gonna lead your communist utopia?*
It's past time you stopped spouting off about dead ideologies and started addressing current events and issues. We would like to know where you stand on these very important and current political issues. I say you're a Trumper and you have not denied it, but weaseled around it. *Though Trump is the puppet of a former KGB officer Vladimir Putin and they were the sword and shield of the Soviet communist party...*

I think you are gonna be on the ropes from here on out, so get used to defending your words. I'd be interested in what @UncleBuck has to say about your recent posts, he has a good nose for trolls and socks, you did show up on one of his threads. I figure you are a regular member who is a Trumper but too ashamed to post under your own name, or you've been run off the site before for antisocial activities and are back as a revenge sock. Other than providing amusement for the members, writing practice for me and wasting people's time, I don't see what your purpose here is, it's a holiday weekend in the states, so it's kind of a slow day on the site.


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## Communist Dreamer (Nov 29, 2019)

DIY-HP-LED said:


> You are a Trumper troll sock puppet posing as a communist and trying to sell the idea that all sides are bad and that Trump is no worse than other politicians. Trump is a traitor to the USA and those who support him at this point in time are traitors too, racist traitors who hate some Americans more than they love their country. You are no activist, if you were, you would be supporting Bernie who is the most ideologically to the left, you haven't mentioned the current political state of affairs at all, except when forced to, and then your answers were evasive to say the least.
> 
> *Should Trump be impeached and removed from office for bribery?
> Is Trump a traitor to the USA?
> ...


Look up Nick Bostrom's Singleton Hypothesis.
Or if you're lazy, read this:





The "singleton hypothesis" predicts the future of humanity


Philosopher Nick Bostrom's "singleton hypothesis" predicts the future of human societies.




bigthink.com





Communist theory is anywhere but dead.


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 29, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> Look up Nick Bostrom's Singleton Hypothesis.
> Or if you're lazy, read this:
> 
> 
> ...


Well that's one guy's idea, other people have other visions of the future. But this thread and section are more about current events and not abstract ideas or distant visions of a possible future. You haven't answered my questions and they will be the questions everybody is gonna be asking you soon.
*Should Trump be impeached and removed from office for bribery?
Is Trump a traitor to the USA?
Are the GOP betraying their oaths of office and the country?
If all politicians are corrupt, who is gonna lead your communist utopia?* 

Just answer, no need to go on about ideology, these are simple questions with simple answers. No two sides are the same, no false comparisons, just yes or no will suffice, there is not much nuance involved here.


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## hanimmal (Nov 29, 2019)

Communist Dreamer said:


> Look up Nick Bostrom's Singleton Hypothesis.
> Or if you're lazy, read this:
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting, but I would say it would become more of a binary situation, 0- the absence of any need for a central government, 1-Single body government over everything. That would allow for anything in between being a possibility, which is more realistic. 

Communist theory may not be dead but it is disproven.


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 29, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> Communist theory may not be dead but it is disproven.


Has it though?
Has a country ever really given it a go? Russia tried their own version of Communism but it wasn't a Karl Marx system, in fact as Russia was so poor it was the opposite of when it needed to come into being. China's Socialism is certainly working economically, in fact they are out Capitalising America at the moment and America is resorting to Socialism to combat it (Tariffs and subsidies).


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## hanimmal (Nov 29, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> Has it though?
> Has a country ever really given it a go? Russia tried their own version of Communism but it wasn't a Karl Marx system, in fact as Russia was so poor it was the opposite of when it needed to come into being. China's Socialism is certainly working economically, in fact they are out Capitalising America at the moment and America is resorting to Socialism to combat it (Tariffs)


Fair enough, I may have gotten too deep there thank you for pulling me back, sometimes the trolling does that. 

It is all just a game at the end of the day, people will eventually figure out we are working way too hard and burning too much stuff for it. 

I blame planned obsolescence. We need to become efficient.


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## DIY-HP-LED (Nov 29, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> Has it though?
> Has a country ever really given it a go? Russia tried their own version of Communism but it wasn't a Karl Marx system, in fact as Russia was so poor it was the opposite of when it needed to come into being. China's Socialism is certainly working economically, in fact they are out Capitalising America at the moment and America is resorting to Socialism to combat it (Tariffs and subsidies).


In the future when technology takes care of our basic needs and things lose their value, perhaps a system similar to communism will be a viable alternative for some of society, if not the majority. Until utopia arrives we need capitalism to drive technological advances, sure governments fund most of the basic research, but where the rubber meets the road in deploying and evolving technology, we still need the incentives and competition that capitalism provides.

*What we really need is to reduce or eliminate the political corruption that capitalism spawns and the lobbying and outright bribery it finances.* Corruption tilts the playing field in favor of the rich and Adam Smith spoke of the need for government regulation, most right wing propagandist ignore this aspect of Smith and focus on the "hidden hand" of capitalism. Capitalism evolved with mankind and reflects our nature and what motivates us to action, need and greed get most of us out of bed in the morning and off to work. When most people have no work to go to then things will change because they can and the vast majority of people will want that change. Technology and trade make us richer year by year while needing fewer people do provide for our needs and a tipping point will be reached, as long as we can maintain democratic government. 

*That is why the republicans are willing to go totalitarian and divide and conquer the masses with social division over complete bullshit, their right wing ideology is in deep trouble. The current American republicans are composed of con men who serve the rich, and racist suckers who they pander to, and make promises they won't or can't keep*. It's all about promising the fools they will "git the brown folks" while shoving as much money and tax breaks to the 1%. The republican base doesn't care about their own country for Christ's sake, much less about economics, all they want to hear is how their white privilege will be insured, they don't care if they burn their own country down over it either.

At this point in history political corruption and social division are the issue and it spawns the inequality that fuels much of the discontent. Capitalism can and does work best when political corruption is keep in check with effective laws, in America the democrats H.R.-1 is only the first step to controlling it. Lots of countries use a form of socialism, a successful blend of capitalism and socialist programs, corruption is the problem and is what is driving economic disparity, in America it uses, social division, racism and bigotry to maintain this status quo.


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## Budley Doright (Nov 30, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Again your blatant attempts to skew the truth are straight out of Trump's playbook. Clearly you do not care about truth, you care more about promoting propaganda and fueling hate. You attached quotes to something I never even said in an attempt to make them look like my words. Pathetic.
> [/QUOTE*]
> 
> “2. Race does matter when it comes to immigrants. Only 4% of immigrants are white. To turn a blind eye to that fact only serves to make you color blind.”*
> Ya you said it. Why would you lie?


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> Ya you said it. Why would you lie?


We've been thru this. I didn't lie, I made a mistake, which I owned up to. Mistakes happen The correct number is 17% not 4%. For some reason posters to this thread insist on re-quoting the incorrect number. That's misinformation, plain and simple. As I've previously said to this before..



PJ Diaz said:


> If you go back and look at that original convo you will see that it was not based out of racism, but rather the importance of understand who exactly gets discriminated against, when we talk of "discrimination towards immigrants". The simple fact is that most of immigrants are not white, and bear the brunt of the immigration discrimination.


The other quote that UncleTrumpBuck attached to me, I never said. I do not defend neo-nazism at all. At the same time I do not believe that hate-speach directed at our opposition helps anything, which is why I condemn such remarks. Great civil rights leaders such as Ghandi and MLK did not believe that attacking opponents with hate and violence were productive, and I agree with that sentiment.


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## UncleBuck (Nov 30, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> We've been thru this. I didn't lie, I made a mistake, which I owned up to. Mistakes happen The correct number is 17% not 4%. For some reason posters to this thread insist on re-quoting the incorrect number. That's misinformation, plain and simple. As I've previously said to this before..
> 
> 
> 
> The other quote that UncleTrumpBuck attached to me, I never said. I do not defend neo-nazism at all. At the same time I do not believe that hate-speach directed at our opposition helps anything, which is why I condemn such remarks. Great civil rights leaders such as Ghandi and MLK did not believe that attacking opponents with hate and violence were productive, and I agree with that sentiment.


Mrs. “race matters when it comes to immigration” just *somehow* missed the neo nazis dozen+ references to his white pride but got very upset the one time the admin called him a simpleton

Anyone else believe this fraud has such selective reading comprehension?


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 30, 2019)

“Your remarks only prove to show that you do not care about truth,”
“You attached quotes to something I never even said”
But it was the truth right? And you did say it yes? Why lie, and why try and say you didn’t?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> “Your remarks only prove to show that you do not care about truth,”
> “You attached quotes to something I never even said”
> But it was the truth right? And you did say it yes? Why lie, and why try and say you didn’t?


That wasn't the quote I was referring to, it was this:



UncleBuck said:


> “Stop picking on that neo nazi!”


I've never said anything close to that, yet he placed the statement in quotes, to make it look as if he were quoting my words. This is disinformation, pure and simple; a Trumpian tactic.


----------



## captainmorgan (Nov 30, 2019)

Triggered.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 30, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> That wasn't the quote I was referring to, it was this:
> 
> 
> 
> I've never said anything close to that, yet he placed the statement in quotes, to make it look as if he were quoting my words. This is disinformation, pure and simple; a Trumpian tactic.


it was an accurate paraphrase and I stand by it


----------



## Fogdog (Nov 30, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> Do you understand that when we pay taxes our money goes right to exactly what you are talking about. Capitalism is not really anything other than humans buying and selling their goods and services based on their own decision making process.
> 
> 
> Who is this magic politician that gets everything on their agenda done? How many issues have you truly studied? Like which legislation can you point to to discuss why you disagree with it.
> ...


It's ttystick. No need to reason with it. There is nothing in its head other than the propaganda he stuffed it with.


----------



## hanimmal (Nov 30, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> It's ttystick. No need to reason with it. There is nothing in its head other than the propaganda he stuffed it with.


Thank you for the heads up, why the sock puppet though?


----------



## neosapien (Nov 30, 2019)




----------



## Rob Roy (Nov 30, 2019)

ChiefRunningPhist said:


> How do you transition from private to public? How many jobs are at stake, how would the retirement packages manage?
> 
> I want universal healthcare, but how do you achieve it?


With an edict backed by use of guns. To be frank.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> it was an accurate paraphrase and I stand by it


It was not accurate. Of course you would stand by a disinformation campaign, that's your thing. Using quotes to paraphrase your personal interpretation is only further evidence of your quest towards propaganda and misinformation. You seemingly continuously operate out of Putin and Trump's playbook. Quite sad indeed.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 30, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> It was not accurate. Of course you would stand by a disinformation campaign, that's your thing. Using quotes to paraphrase your personal interpretation is only further evidence of your quest towards propaganda and misinformation. You seemingly continuously operate out of Putin and Trump's playbook. Quite sad indeed.


So you weren’t telling the admin to stop picking on a neo nazi?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> So you weren’t telling the admin to stop picking on a neo nazi?


I suggested that an admin act like an admin, and that he refrain from attacks and insults. Whoever his attacks were directed towards were not part of my assessment. I don't believe that insulting and attacking those with opposing views is productive. That sort of behavior only serves to further divide us from those with opposing views rather than working towards unity.


----------



## captainmorgan (Nov 30, 2019)

Bernie likes to cup Putins balls in his hand when he pleases him.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 30, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I suggested that an admin act like an admin, and that he refrain from attacks and insults. Whoever his attacks were directed towards were not part of my assessment. I don't believe that insulting and attacking those with opposing views is productive. That sort of behavior only serves to further divide us from those with opposing views rather than working towards unity.


So you were indeed telling an admin to “refrain from attacks” (aka stop picking on) a neo nazi (whose repeated invocations of white power you so conveniently missed)

I was right, my paraphrase was accurate.

Thanks, racist


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 30, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I suggested that an admin act like an admin, and that he refrain from attacks and insults. Whoever his attacks were directed towards were not part of my assessment. I don't believe that insulting and attacking those with opposing views is productive. That sort of behavior only serves to further divide us from those with opposing views rather than working towards unity.


WTF are you talking about? Most threads your on turns into you being an asshole and disparaging others. Sooo back to the “I never said that”. You seem worried that to many people of colour are coming to your country as refugees. Why are you worried? Do people of colour scare you? Please feel free to spell check and add corrections if needed.


----------



## captainmorgan (Nov 30, 2019)

Pimp logic.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> WTF are you talking about? Most threads your on turns into you being an asshole and disparaging others. Sooo back to the “I never said that”. You seem worried that to many people of colour are coming to your country as refugees. Why are you worried? Do people of colour scare you? Please feel free to spell check and add corrections if needed.


I'm not worried. My wife is a person of color and also an immigrant. I support open immigration. Again, you need to look at the context to understand the original point instead of attempting to warp it into something it's not.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> So you were indeed telling an admin to “refrain from attacks” (aka stop picking on) a neo nazi (whose repeated invocations of white power you so conveniently missed)
> 
> I was right, my paraphrase was accurate.
> 
> Thanks, racist


Again, to whom the attacks were directed was not part of my assessment. I'm not even sure if that person is a neo-nazi or not; he is because you say he is?

It seems that you are attempting to justify hate speech and attacks towards "others" because in your assessment these "others" are haters themselves and therefore deserve such treatment. On that note, I'll leave you with a couple of quotes from two of our great leaders of nonviolence: 

“Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that.”

-- Martin Luther King Jr.


“An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind”

--Mahatma Gandhi


----------



## Budley Doright (Nov 30, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I'm not worried. My wife is a person of color and also an immigrant. I support open immigration. Again, you need to look at the context to understand the original point instead of attempting to warp it into something it's not.


How am I warping it, please straighten me out. Your statement regarding, by turning a blind eye, would indicate I should be concerned with the amount of coloured people entering the country. Is that not what you meant to convey?


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 30, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I'm not worried. My wife is a person of color and also an immigrant. I support open immigration. Again, you need to look at the context to understand the original point instead of attempting to warp it into something it's not.


You said “race matters when it comes to immigration” then proceeded to lie about how many non-white immigrants there are

No one believes your bullshit


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 30, 2019)

Btw, here is how unbelievable pj’s “I can’t be sure he’s a neo nazi!” claim is




This is the slogan for the worlds biggest neo nazi group:




And this is kgp repeating it one of a dozen or more times:







Guess who made the post before and two posts after kgp expressing his neo nazi beliefs?

If you guessed mrs. pj diaz, then you are right


This bitch is a complete fucking fraud and most definitely a neo nazi, russian, or both


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> How am I warping it, please straighten me out. Your statement regarding, by turning a blind eye, would indicate I should be concerned with the amount of coloured people entering the country. Is that not what you meant to convey?


No, that is not what I meant to convey. Again, context is important. Because Buck's disinformation seems to work, I will attempt to clarify again..

You yourself made a statement about driving transport, by saying "Driving transport is a career path that lots of immigrants have followed here. It only discriminates against sleep apnea lol." I then posted a chart showing that over 70% of transport drivers are white, which is evidence that the industry does indeed does indeed discriminate towards immigrants, which is further evidenced by the fact that only 17% of immigrants are white, a statement which I only posted after being challenged by a different poster as to the where the majority of immigrants originate from:



blu3bird said:


> It's so odd that you think immigrants are only brown or black, like there's no such thing as Russian, Bosnian or Croatian immigrants that might go into trucking that would support those statistics


If you follow the simple logic above, instead of trying to twist my words into something they are not, you should see that I only addressed the facts at hand, but did not imply any bias, or negative feelings towards immigrants. Any such sentiment has been projected upon me by trolls who are attempting to discredit my statements through a disinformation campaign. 

I find it quite ironic that some people who post to this thread proclaim to be anti-Trump and anti-Russian disinformation, use the exact same tactics in attempts to embolden their personal agendas.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Btw, here is how unbelievable pj’s “I can’t be sure he’s a neo nazi!” claim is
> 
> 
> 
> ...


None of those posts are mine. Again you are using disinformation, not truth.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> “Race matters when it comes to immigration, only 4% of immigrants are white!”
> 
> 
> Gaslight all you want, bitch. Your meaning is crystal clear and unmistakable





UncleBuck said:


> I didn’t say they were, dumb bitch
> 
> I said you posted right before and right after kgp quoted the slogan of the biggest neo nazi group on the planet
> 
> You suck so fucking bad at this you stupid bitch


Based on your continued hate fueled disinformation attacks, I can see clearly that you disagree with the teachings of MLK and Gandhi. Perhaps you need to read more. Here are some books on my shelf I could recommend to you:



One of the main beliefs throughout all anti-racism teachings is that you need to understand who is being discriminated against. In the case of immigration, the groups mainly being discriminated against are non-white people, evidenced by the fact that only 17% of immigrants (as opposed to my previous error of 4%) are white. Acknowledging this fact does not make one a racist, in fact it makes one conscious, which is the first step in any effort to genuinely move away from racism.

Your hate-filled rhetoric style is not embraced by any successful leaders of civil rights movements. In fact your propaganda only serves to further polarize your opposition.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 30, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Based on your continued hate fueled disinformation attacks, I can see clearly that you disagree with the teachings of MLK and Gandhi. Perhaps you need to read more. Here are some books on my shelf I could recommend to you:
> 
> View attachment 4429585
> 
> ...


My disinformation campaign

Calling mrs. pj Diaz a racist based on this direct quote:

“Race matters when it comes to immigration, only 4% of immigrants are white!”


Pointing out that mrs. Pj Diaz posted right before and right after a neo nazi recited the neo nazi slogan:




And pointing out that mrs. Pj Diaz begged the admin to stop picking on the neo nazi, while never once speaking up against the dozens of racist and neo nazi blatherings by said neo nazi


I’m just wondering where the disinformation is since it’s not in any direct quotes or screenshots of you posting right before and after a neo nazi chanting the neo nazi slogan

Dumb gaslighting bitch


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> My disinformation campaign
> 
> Calling mrs. pj Diaz a racist based on this direct quote:
> 
> ...


Interesting how you showed posts from Oct 24th here, and are trying to connect them with something I posted a month later towards the admin, on Nov 23rd. If you're still wondering "just wondering where the disinformation is", this is a perfect example of it right here in your posting.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 30, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Interesting how you showed posts from Oct 24th here, and are trying to connect them with something I posted a month later towards the admin, on Nov 23rd. If you're still wondering "just wondering where the disinformation is", this is a perfect example of it right here in your posting.


The screenshot I posted is of kgp reciting the neo nazi slogan. You were posting in that thread at the same exact time. It would be impossible for you to miss.

Yet, here you are claiming you can’t even be sure that the guy who was reciting the neo nazi slogan (in a thread you were posting in at the same time) is a neo nazi

Just drop the fucking stupid gaslighting act.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> The screenshot I posted is of kgp reciting the neo nazi slogan. You were posting in that thread at the same exact time. It would be impossible for you to miss.
> 
> Yet, here you are claiming you can’t even be sure that the guy who was reciting the neo nazi slogan (in a thread you were posting in at the same time) is a neo nazi
> 
> Just drop the fucking stupid gaslighting act you dumb bitch.


Something from a month earlier was impossible to miss? Guy you are really over-reaching now with your disinformation campaign. Please stop your Trumpian tactics, while at the same time calling yourself a Democrat.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 30, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Something from a month earlier was impossible to miss? Guy you are really over-reaching now with your disinformation campaign. Please stop your Trumpian tactics, while at the same time calling yourself a Democrat.


How do you think things are going for you with this sock puppet account, fraudy McFraudster?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> How do you think things are going for you with this sock puppet account, fraudy McFraudster?


Sock puppet account? My account is nearly 8 years old, and I have many posts about actual growing, whereas you don't even smoke weed, let alone grow it.


----------



## Fogdog (Nov 30, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I suggested that an admin act like an admin, and that he refrain from attacks and insults. Whoever his attacks were directed towards were not part of my assessment. I don't believe that insulting and attacking those with opposing views is productive. That sort of behavior only serves to further divide us from those with opposing views rather than working towards unity.


Why are you spending time here? You told us about this California forum where all 30,000 of your posts are read, re-read, liked and cited whenever there is any doubt on the subject. Instead you come here, where you have made yourself into an ass so many times that even your posts sound like farts. The last time you were here, you called independent contractors scum. Now, you are denying the very words you wrote. You tried the same trick on me and so I hung your shitty comment about immigrants in my signature lines because I don't like being lied to. 

So, deny again that you said_ "Race does matter when it comes to immigrants. Only 4% of immigrants are white. To turn a blind eye to that fact only serves to make you color blind."_ Give us all a good laugh. Again. Your post is available to everybody that you are trying to gaslight.

I really, really don't like being lied to, by the way.


----------



## blu3bird (Nov 30, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> No, that is not what I meant to convey. Again, context is important. Because Buck's disinformation seems to work, I will attempt to clarify again..
> 
> You yourself made a statement about driving transport, by saying "Driving transport is a career path that lots of immigrants have followed here. It only discriminates against sleep apnea lol." I then posted a chart showing that over 70% of transport drivers are white, which is evidence that the industry does indeed does indeed discriminate towards immigrants, which is further evidenced by the fact that only 17% of immigrants are white, a statement which I only posted after being challenged by a different poster as to the where the majority of immigrants originate from:
> 
> ...


You are a goddamn idiot, just because there are more white truck drivers, does not mean it's a discriminatory occupation against black and brown people. 

It just means more white people drive truck, that's it. There is no special line at the secretary of state office for white guys and only white guys to get a CDL. 

I can't believe how fucking stupid you are, by your logic, NBA is racist and discriminatory against white people simply because there is majority black guys that play 

Now STFU already!


----------



## blu3bird (Nov 30, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Based on your continued hate fueled disinformation attacks, I can see clearly that you disagree with the teachings of MLK and Gandhi. Perhaps you need to read more. Here are some books on my shelf I could recommend to you:
> 
> View attachment 4429585
> 
> ...


LOL, you're really that fucking stupid that you have a shelf of books to learn how to not be racist. As if you can't just treat someone respectfully on your own, you needed some bullshit books to show you how. GTFOH, you retarded fool.


----------



## UncleBuck (Nov 30, 2019)

Mrs. Pj Diaz, I don’t think things are going so well for you, ma’am 

I think other people’s bullshit detectors are picking up what I’m picking up


----------



## blu3bird (Nov 30, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Mrs. Pj Diaz, I don’t think things are going so well for you, ma’am
> 
> I think other people’s bullshit detectors are picking up what I’m picking up


He actually thinks something of himself because he has some books. I love to see his lily white candy ass go into a neighborhood by 8 Mile and John R in Detroit and tell those folks he's not racist, because he reads books about it lol


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> Why are you spending time here? You told us about this California forum where all 30,000 of your posts are read, re-read, liked and cited whenever there is any doubt on the subject. Instead you come here, where you have made yourself into an ass so many times that even your posts sound like farts. The last time you were here, you called independent contractors scum. Now, you are denying the very words you wrote. You tried the same trick on me and so I hung your shitty comment about immigrants in my signature lines because I don't like being lied to.
> 
> So, deny again that you said_ "Race does matter when it comes to immigrants. Only 4% of immigrants are white. To turn a blind eye to that fact only serves to make you color blind."_ Give us all a good laugh. Again. Your post is available to everybody that you are trying to gaslight.
> 
> I really, really don't like being lied to, by the way.


I have no idea what this California forum you are talking about is. Never said anything of the sort. Your posting that quote, which was later corrected and explained, in your signature shows that you are also interested in disinformation and not interested in truth. You too have chosen to take statements out of context in a clear and blatant attempt to cause division instead of working towards understanding and unity.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

blu3bird said:


> He actually thinks something of himself because he has some books. I love to see his lily white candy ass go into a neighborhood by 8 Mile and John R in Detroit and tell those folks he's not racist, because he reads books about it lol


White people are a minority where I live, fyi. I live in a predominantly Latino community.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

blu3bird said:


> LOL, you're really that fucking stupid that you have a shelf of books to learn how to not be racist. As if you can't just treat someone respectfully on your own, you needed some bullshit books to show you how. GTFOH, you retarded fool.


I read books to look at things from other perspectives. You should try it.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Nov 30, 2019)

blu3bird said:


> You are a goddamn idiot, just because there are more white truck drivers, does not mean it's a discriminatory occupation against black and brown people.
> 
> It just means more white people drive truck, that's it. There is no special line at the secretary of state office for white guys and only white guys to get a CDL.
> 
> ...


It may not be intentionally discriminatory, but yes they are discriminated against. If you study the subtle nuances of inequality, you might open your perspective a bit.


----------



## Fogdog (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I have no idea what this California forum you are talking about is. Never said anything of the sort. Your posting that quote, which was later corrected and explained, in your signature shows that you are also interested in disinformation and not interested in truth. You too have chosen to take statements out of context in a clear and blatant attempt to cause division instead of working towards understanding and unity.


You are a fucking liar.

LOL, "you directly quoted me out of context"

You never explained or corrected yourself. Just gaslighting like a troll.


----------



## Budley Doright (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> No, that is not what I meant to convey. Again, context is important. Because Buck's disinformation seems to work, I will attempt to clarify again..
> 
> You yourself made a statement about driving transport, by saying "Driving transport is a career path that lots of immigrants have followed here. It only discriminates against sleep apnea lol." I then posted a chart showing that over 70% of transport drivers are white, which is evidence that the industry does indeed does indeed discriminate towards immigrants, which is further evidenced by the fact that only 17% of immigrants are white, a statement which I only posted after being challenged by a different poster as to the where the majority of immigrants originate from:
> 
> ...


I find it quite ironic that you would bring colour into a discussion about immigrants driving truck. Then you use a false number to prove your point. I believe you meant to convey exactly what I think your saying and that is that you are scared of immigrants of colour taking away your “successful life”.


----------



## Budley Doright (Dec 1, 2019)




----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 1, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> I find it quite ironic that you would bring colour into a discussion about immigrants driving truck. Then you use a false number to prove your point. I believe you meant to convey exactly what I think your saying and that is that you are scared of immigrants of colour taking away your “successful life”.


The big flaw in your logic there is that I'm married to a person of color who is also an immigrant.


----------



## blu3bird (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> It may not be intentionally discriminatory, but yes they are discriminated against. If you study the subtle nuances of inequality, you might open your perspective a bit.


Ok then, go to the secretary of state office when you need to renew your license and whisper to the clerk, hey I know you don't like black and brown folks sitting in the driver seat of semis, so let me get one of those CDL's since I'm white. Report back to us how that works out for you

For someone that thinks they're so smart, you show an incredible amount of ignorance

You should study the subtle nuances of retardation and then look in the mirror


----------



## blu3bird (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I read books to look at things from other perspectives. You should try it.


I'm not that stupid that I need to read a book on how to not be racist.

You're a retard if you think reading some book about anti-racism somehow makes you ant-racist


----------



## hanimmal (Dec 1, 2019)

blu3bird said:


> I'm not that stupid that I need to read a book on how to not be racist.
> 
> You're a retard if you think reading some book about anti-racism somehow makes you ant-racist


Ive known a lot of white people and Mexicans that could use some books on it. 

I found this pretty interesting since I had to fill out some forms and saw that all of the race descriptions for Hispanics were changed on it:

To try to capture more accurate data in 2020, the Census Bureau has recommended combining the two questions into one, with "Hispanic or Latino" as an option for both race and ethnicity on the next census. 

But that proposal has raised a question about Hispanic people who in the past have checked off "white" for their race: Will they keep doing so if "Hispanic" is categorized as both a race and an ethnicity? 

The Census Bureau has researched how combining the Hispanic origin and race questions could affect responses. Its findings suggest that a combined question could decrease the white count in 2020.

*"That would fuel some of the anxieties that are behind the white supremacist movement,"* says Morning, who advises the Census Bureau on race and ethnicity issues and supports changing the federal standards to allow a combined question.

She adds that any change in the size of the white population resulting from a combined question could signal shifting identities among some Latinos.







@PJ Diaz, seriously man, I think the trap you fell into was missing this thread from a while back: https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-politics-of-truck-drivers-urinating-in-public.984249/post-14931283

It would seem that the standard percentages of immigrants do not apply to the Trucking world. I would guess it is because most people willing to front a immigrant all the upfront costs, might have a reason to not pick people who are less likely to blend in with the locals.


----------



## Budley Doright (Dec 1, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> Ive known a lot of white people and Mexicans that could use some books on it.
> 
> I found this pretty interesting since I had to fill out some forms and saw that all of the race descriptions for Hispanics were changed on it:
> 
> ...


He didn’t fall into any trap. He stated exactly what he meant to, and that was you are being overrun by people of colour. The unfortunate part was I was talking about “here” which is, as everyone with half a brain knows, I’m Canadian. Race was not even part of the conversation until he brought it up. And “here” it is one of the fastest growing industries for immigrants. 33% of drivers are immigrants compared to just 13% 3 years ago. Most companies everywhere (states included) are actually increasing their recruiting efforts to include immigrants to mitigate the shortfall of drivers that is looming large in the near future. Diaz is a racist and I don’t give a shit if he’s married to a purple Zucchini, that changes/proves nothing.


----------



## hanimmal (Dec 1, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> He didn’t fall into any trap. He stated exactly what he meant to, and that was you are being overrun by people of colour. The unfortunate part was I was talking about “here” which is, as everyone with half a brain knows, I’m Canadian. Race was not even part of the conversation until he brought it up. And “here” it is one of the fastest growing industries for immigrants. 33% of drivers are immigrants compared to just 13% 3 years ago. Most companies everywhere (states included) are actually increasing their recruiting efforts to include immigrants to mitigate the shortfall of drivers that is looming large in the near future. Diaz is a racist and I don’t give a shit if he’s married to a purple Zucchini, that changes/proves nothing.


I meant a overall trap (not one set here) of thinking immigration means race. People right now are programmed to hate the brown people seeking a better life here. Your point is taken about this thread, I was just tossing the guy a lifeline to understand the racist propaganda that he seems to have been buying into.


----------



## Budley Doright (Dec 1, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> I meant a overall trap (not one set here) of thinking immigration means race. People right now are programmed to hate the brown people seeking a better life here. Your point is taken about this thread, I was just tossing the guy a lifeline to understand the racist propaganda that he seems to have been buying into.


Yes I get it, throwing a lifeline to people that deserve it is a noble thing. It’s easy to get caught up in the animosity here. This guy does not deserve it. He disparages everyone that he interacts with. And then says he’s being taken out of context or not understood. He deserves exactly what he is getting.........carry on lol. There seems to be a lot of pretend liberals here but they are quickly weeded (hehehe) out as to their true racist leanings. They know that a mainstream righteous society detests them so they try and hide, but not very well.


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> The big flaw in your logic there is that I'm married to a person of color who is also an immigrant.


no you aren’t you lying sack of shit


----------



## hanimmal (Dec 1, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> Yes I get it, throwing a lifeline to people that deserve it is a noble thing. It’s easy to get caught up in the animosity here. This guy does not deserve it. He disparages everyone that he interacts with. And then says he’s being taken out of context or not understood. He deserves exactly what he is getting.........carry on lol. There seems to be a lot of pretend liberals here but they are quickly weeded (hehehe) out as to their true racist leanings. They know that a mainstream righteous society detests them so they try and hide, but not very well.


I would agree and give up if this was 2013 when I did just that being over trying to talk to people on here about the things they feel are ok to say. But it is 2019 and I now know that at the very least we have been under attack by at least the Russian military for 5 years. 

I have seen my family take on the same language/conspiracies that online trolls were pushing and shook it off as they were just having fun being assholes. I then saw everybody turn on each other in 2016 at the same time Trump got elected. 

I started posting again to understand it and to do my part to help out people that don't understand why they think the world is so scary when in reality we are mostly doing ok, because they are being manipulated into thinking only about the worst parts of humanity that affect them the most.


----------



## Fogdog (Dec 1, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> I would agree and give up if this was 2013 when I did just that being over trying to talk to people on here about the things they feel are ok to say. But it is 2019 and I now know that at the very least we have been under attack by at least the Russian military for 5 years.
> 
> I have seen my family take on the same language/conspiracies that online trolls were pushing and shook it off as they were just having fun being assholes. I then saw everybody turn on each other in 2016 at the same time Trump got elected.
> 
> I started posting again to understand it and to do my part to help out people that don't understand why they think the world is so scary when in reality we are mostly doing ok, because they are being manipulated into thinking only about the worst parts of humanity that affect them the most.


I think he's just a cynical nazi troll asshole playing people.


----------



## hanimmal (Dec 1, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> I think he's just a cynical nazi troll asshole playing people.


Either way, if they are there my be someone who is thinking that what he is saying makes some sense and thinks if they ask a question they will get roasted (which they will lol). But a lot of people just have been in such a bubble their entire lives they don't really understand what they got passed down to them was some pretty racist shit. To them it is just logical, but they don't really it is because the racist that push that propaganda are cherry picking facts to sell them their agenda.

And even more important maybe is to wait the racists pushing the racist and evangelical agenda to wake up that they are being used by Russians to hurt the country that they live in, worse than any poor brown people ever could.


----------



## Budley Doright (Dec 1, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> I would agree and give up if this was 2013 when I did just that being over trying to talk to people on here about the things they feel are ok to say. But it is 2019 and I now know that at the very least we have been under attack by at least the Russian military for 5 years.
> 
> I have seen my family take on the same language/conspiracies that online trolls were pushing and shook it off as they were just having fun being assholes. I then saw everybody turn on each other in 2016 at the same time Trump got elected.
> 
> I started posting again to understand it and to do my part to help out people that don't understand why they think the world is so scary when in reality we are mostly doing ok, because they are being manipulated into thinking only about the worst parts of humanity that affect them the most.


I’m not sure why I’m here, bored I guess lol, it’s gotten pretty fucking cold here so I’m hunkered down till I head south, great way to waste away the grey days of winter hell. It’s also quite entertaining to watch the defence of the indefensible and then the crying after their ridiculed. It’s gratifying to expose the lies some try and perpetuate to again defend the idiots/criminals they worship.
PS I do enjoy the debate and conversation that does happen here on occasion and most threads start that way, but some quickly devolve into humorous untruths.


----------



## Fogdog (Dec 1, 2019)

hanimmal said:


> Either way, if they are there my be someone who is thinking that what he is saying makes some sense and thinks if they ask a question they will get roasted (which they will lol). But a lot of people just have been in such a bubble their entire lives they don't really understand what they got passed down to them was some pretty racist shit. To them it is just logical, but they don't really it is because the racist that push that propaganda are cherry picking facts to sell them their agenda.
> 
> And even more important maybe is to wait the racists pushing the racist and evangelical agenda to wake up that they are being used by Russians to hurt the country that they live in, worse than any poor brown people ever could.


I get the need to put down propaganda lies whenever they are published. Its not all Russian, although there is quite a bit of that. Republicans have been pushing their own propaganda hard for a couple of decades.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 1, 2019)

blu3bird said:


> Ok then, go to the secretary of state office when you need to renew your license and whisper to the clerk, hey I know you don't like black and brown folks sitting in the driver seat of semis, so let me get one of those CDL's since I'm white. Report back to us how that works out for you
> 
> For someone that thinks they're so smart, you show an incredible amount of ignorance
> 
> You should study the subtle nuances of retardation and then look in the mirror


Actually you are the one showing your ignorance, evidenced by the fact that you refuse to read books. You are really missing the point. The discrimination is driven by economic, political, cultural and social activities at large, not necessarily individuals. I'd suggest that you study up on marginalized groups and maybe you will begin to understand.









Social exclusion - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 1, 2019)

ACTUALLY


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 1, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> no you aren’t you lying sack of shit


Nope. Been married to her for 15 years, and we lived together for 7 years before that.


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Nope. Been married to her for 15 years, and we lived together for 7 years before that.


You lie about everything though


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 1, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> You lie about everything though


No, I made one error in stating an incorrect %, which I immediately owned up to once pointed out to me. I also pointed out how it was an easy mistake to make. Somehow however you want to say it's a lie, and therefore everything else I say is also a lie. This is more of your disinformation campaign.


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> No, I made one error in stating an incorrect %, which I immediately owned up to once pointed out to me. I also pointed out how it was an easy mistake to make. Somehow however you want to say it's a lie, and therefore everything else I say is also a lie. This is more of your disinformation campaign.


No, it’s much more than that one racist lie

For example you’ve said you’re not racist. But you also said “race matters when it comes to immigration”

You also claimed to own a business but have no idea how workman’s comp or fica taxes work

You’re a fraud. Everyone sees it


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 1, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> No, it’s much more than that one racist lie
> 
> For example you’ve said you’re not racist. But you also said “race matters when it comes to immigration”
> 
> ...


Yes, it does matter, because it's important to know which groups are being discriminated against when it comes to immigration. I've stated that multiple times; a little factoid which you choose to ignore, because you are not interested in truth.

I do have a small business, and I do understand how fica and worker's comp work. I had to know that years ago, when I was elected as my local union's business agent. I never said I don't understand how they work, you imposed that statement upon me and repeated it as if it were a truth. More disinformation on your part.

Funny thing is, I never make any racist statements, in fact I've repeatedly said that I condemn racism. However you've twisted a statement into something which was not part of the intent, even after I've clarified it.

So you don't think it's important to know which groups are discriminated against when it comes to immigration? 

To be honest, I do understand how your mind could warp such a statement into that perspective. In my younger, less educated years, I too thought that 
being "colorblind" was the best path towards ending racial discrimination; you know, treat everyone the same regardless of race. What I later realized is that there is more to equality than just treating everyone the same. It's important to understand the specific struggles that different cultures have had to endure over the years, and take that into consideration when trying to understand the specific struggles or needs or different groups. Dudley's example of a "color-blind" transport industry is a perfect example.. Of course the person at the counter issuing licenses isn't going to determine a driver's qualifications by skin color, but there are very real socio-economic factors in play that do lead to subtle forms of unfortunate racial discrimination.

Your perspective seems very limited, and quite binary. I would suggest that you study up on the subject quite a bit more, if you truly care to understand these issues. Frankly however, I'm not sure you care to really understand. You seem to have a lot of anger in your life, I would suggest you focus on that. Perhaps you need to resolve issues with your mother? There is no reason to subject your anger with yourself upon others however.


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Yes, it does matter, because it's important to know which groups are being discriminated against when it comes to immigration. I've stated that multiple times; a little factoid which you choose to ignore, because you are not interested in truth.
> 
> I do have a small business, and I do understand how fica and worker's comp work. I had to know that years ago, when I was elected as my local union's business agent. I never said I don't understand how they work, you imposed that statement upon me and repeated it as if it were a truth. More disinformation on your part.
> 
> ...


What a stupid load of shit


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 1, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> What a stupid load of shit


LMFAO, that's all you got? Clearly you are incapable of having a discussion based on logic and understanding. You would never survive in a face to face debate.


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> LMFAO, that's all you got? Clearly you are incapable of having a discussion based on logic and understanding. You would never survive in a face to face debate.


“Race matters when it comes to immigration”


Racists believe that. 

You’re a racist

Now try to subvert reality with 8 paragraphs of gaslighting


----------



## Fogdog (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Funny thing is, I never make any racist statements, in fact I've repeatedly said that I condemn racism. However you've twisted a statement into something which was not part of the intent, even after I've clarified it.


_"Race does matter when it comes to immigrants. Only 4% of immigrants are white. To turn a blind eye to that fact only serves to make you color blind. "_

Yes, yes, we completely understand why you tried to push the white genocide myth on us. We completely understand why you want to deny you said it too.


----------



## Budley Doright (Dec 1, 2019)

*“Dudley's example of a "color-blind" transport industry is a perfect example..”* 

Say what now? What the fuck are you talking about now?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 1, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> _"Race does matter when it comes to immigrants. Only 4% of immigrants are white. To turn a blind eye to that fact only serves to make you color blind. "_
> 
> Yes, yes, we completely understand why you tried to push the white genocide myth on us. We completely understand why you want to deny you said it too.


I've never said anything about white genocide. That's just ridiculous. Please feel free to debate my actual points if you like. Being color blind only prevents you from seeing the struggles of marginalized groups. Why would you deny that? Every social justice scholar will agree with my assessment. This is why it's important to read, even when you think you already know everything.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 1, 2019)

When it comes to race and justice, 'colour-blindness' is not good enough


The Australian justice system must do more to acknowledge the colonial system on which it is built, which inherently privileges whiteness.




theconversation.com


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 1, 2019)

It’s like a turd that won’t flush


----------



## Fogdog (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I've never said anything about white genocide. That's just ridiculous. Please feel free to debate my actual points if you like. Being color blind only prevents you from seeing the struggles of marginalized groups. Why would you deny that? Every social justice scholar will agree with my assessment. This is why it's important to read, even when you think you already know everything.


You gaslight like the orange man.

You keep denying what you said even though your own words are there for all to see. Its why I put your post in my sig line.


----------



## Fogdog (Dec 1, 2019)

What @PJ Diaz said:

"Race does matter when it comes to immigrants. Only 4% of immigrants are white. To turn a blind eye to that fact only serves to make you color _blind."_ 

What @PJ Diaz was referring to:









White genocide conspiracy theory - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 1, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> What @PJ Diaz said:
> 
> "Race does matter when it comes to immigrants. Only 4% of immigrants are white. To turn a blind eye to that fact only serves to make you color _blind."_
> 
> ...


I never denied I said it, but yes the number was a mistake, it should have been 17%. I was not referring to white genocide however. I was referring to racial equality.

Yes, I suggest you read more about racial equality, and you may begin to understand..









Color-Blindness Is a Cop-Out


"Over time, I began to see just how deeply rooted the idea of “color-blindness as goodness” is in our society."




www.aspeninstitute.org


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I never denied I said it, but yes the number was a mistake, it should have been 17%. I was not referring to white genocide however. I was referring to racial equality.
> 
> Yes, I suggest you read more about racial equality, and you may begin to understand..
> 
> ...


Race does not matter when it comes to immigration 

You’re a racist


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 1, 2019)

For those who may want to educate themselves..






The Psychology of Racial Colorblindness: A Critical Review: Mazzocco, Philip J.: 9781137599674: Amazon.com: Books


The Psychology of Racial Colorblindness: A Critical Review [Mazzocco, Philip J.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Psychology of Racial Colorblindness: A Critical Review



www.amazon.com


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> For those who may want to educate themselves..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your gaslighting is shittier than your rancid vagina


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 1, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Your gaslighting is shittier than your rancid vagina


See, the thing is any scholar with a PhD in the field of social justice will agree that yes race does matter. It's important to acknowledge the struggles of marginalized groups, which is often seen along a racial divide.


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 1, 2019)

The following is a comprehensive list of people who care about what percentage of immigrants are non-white:

1) racists (like mrs. Pj Diaz)


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 1, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> The following is a comprehensive list of people who care about what percentage of immigrants are non-white:


..because it's important to know which groups are being discriminated against when it comes to immigration. 

Every scholar with a PhD in the field of social justice should be on that list, evidenced by many many articles.

Hey look, Monnica T Williams Ph.D. wrote an entire article explaining how color blindness is really a form of racism. Since you are chastising me for speaking against color blindness in our scoiety, it seems that according to Dr Williams, you are actually the one who is promoting racism. Take a read and enlighten yourself:









Colorblind Ideology Is a Form of Racism


A colorblind approach allows us to deny uncomfortable cultural differences.




www.psychologytoday.com


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> you are actually the one who is promoting racism


No.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 1, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> No.


Did you read the article, or do you prefer to stay ignorant?


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Did you read the article, or do you prefer to stay ignorant?


fraud


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 1, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> fraud


Got it, you prefer ignorance. It's ok, I anticipate that in a few years your wife will evolve in this regard ahead of you, and then she will teach you of this wisdom. I understand that you have good intentions, but unfortunately your theories on racism are quite outdated. You will get to where I am eventually, and then you will finally understand. 

Then again, you could choose to be proactive and educate yourself first, then you can enlighten your wife and she might think you are cool, and not just disgruntled. Just know that the article I linked you to is written by a woman of color with PhD, who has specialized knowledge in her field.


----------



## Fogdog (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> ..because it's important to know which groups are being discriminated against when it comes to immigration.
> 
> Every scholar with a PhD in the field of social justice should be on that list, evidenced by many many articles.
> 
> ...


Your post was obviously an attempt at deflection but that article had nothing to do with what your "4% are white" post was all about. It was about the "you will not replace us" kind of white supremacist white genocide myth and you know it. We know it too. Stop it with the gaslighting.

Because you will deny saying it, I'll just repeat what you said, word for word:

"Race does matter when it comes to immigrants. Only 4% of immigrants are white. To turn a blind eye to that fact only serves to make you color _blind."_ 

By that statement, 96% are not white. Of course, it is false but that's the inflated rate of non-whites your kind of white supremacist assholes want people to believe. Denying your white genocide myth has nothing to do with color blindness. It has everything to do with facts.


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 1, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Got it, you prefer ignorance. It's ok, I anticipate that in a few years your wife will evolve in this regard ahead of you, and then she will teach you of this wisdom. I understand that you have good intentions, but unfortunately your theories on racism are quite outdated. You will get to where I am eventually, and then you will finally understand.
> 
> Then again, you could choose to be proactive and educate yourself first, then you can enlighten your wife and she might think you are cool, and not just disgruntled. Just know that the article I linked you to is written by a woman of color with PhD, who has specialized knowledge in her field.


“Race matters when it comes to immigration, only 4% of immigrants are white “



Racist


----------



## blu3bird (Dec 2, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> ..because it's important to know which groups are being discriminated against when it comes to immigration.
> 
> Every scholar with a PhD in the field of social justice should be on that list, evidenced by many many articles.
> 
> ...


Only a racist sack of shit cares so much about skin color like you do 

Racist sack of shit


PS
Looks like you're getting your ass handed to you here by UncleBuck and Fogdog
LOL


----------



## hanimmal (Dec 2, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> ..because it's important to know which groups are being discriminated against when it comes to immigration.
> 
> Every scholar with a PhD in the field of social justice should be on that list, evidenced by many many articles.
> 
> Hey look, Monnica T Williams Ph.D. wrote an entire article explaining how color blindness is really a form of racism.


Racism is a pretty complex subject that is purposely being used to make conversations like the one you guys are having impossible.

What is not hard to understand though is that when it comes to immigration, this administration has been very racist towards brown people.


----------



## Budley Doright (Dec 2, 2019)

*“because it's important to know which groups are being discriminated against when it comes to immigration.”*

How does your statement about immigration of people of colour show discrimination when the numbers of non whites far outnumber white people? If you look at every industry the percentage of white people is far higher than that of other demographics. Does the fast food industry hire based on colour of skin? You are grasping at things that are meaningless to make your case it was not a racist statement which it very much was. You really need to give what you say some thought before you say it, I’m thinking you actually may have shot a nail into your brain and are now scared to do any real work. Also could you clarify how you were in charge of hiring when in fact you are in a union? Not sure about there but here union workers are hired from a list of available members.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 2, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> Your post was obviously an attempt at deflection but that article had nothing to do with what your "4% are white" post was all about. It was about the "you will not replace us" kind of white supremacist white genocide myth and you know it. We know it too. Stop it with the gaslighting.
> 
> Because you will deny saying it, I'll just repeat what you said, word for word:
> 
> ...


I don't believe that white people are superior to people with any other skin color. You are projecting


blu3bird said:


> Only a racist sack of shit cares so much about skin color like you do
> 
> Racist sack of shit
> 
> ...


Social justice workers do indeed care about skin color, because non-white communities have been marginalized for years.


Budley Doright said:


> Also could you clarify how you were in charge of hiring when in fact you are in a union? Not sure about there but here union workers are hired from a list of available members.


Sure in my local the business agent is responsible for overseeing the dispatch of workers to employers, and also sets up and negotiates all contracts with employers. Obviously one needs to be sure that employers follow proper employment practices, in an effort to ensure protections for union members.


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 2, 2019)

what smells like bullshit


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 2, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> what smells like bullshit


I have a couple of my union pins here on my desk which say otherwise..


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 2, 2019)

Also, I get emails like this at the end of the year for my small business..


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 2, 2019)

Does your stepdad know you took those


----------



## Fogdog (Dec 2, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I don't believe that white people are superior to people with any other skin color. You are projecting


See what I mean? Gaslighting.

I merely recite what you say and you deny ever saying it. No, you lying sack of shit, not projecting one bit. I'm just speaking facts. You? not so much.

You showed yourself as a lying denying gaslighting sack of shit a while ago and so I pinned one of the posts that you deny ever saying into my sig line because I knew you'd lie about ever saying it.

But no, you said it.


"Race does matter when it comes to immigrants. Only 4% of immigrants are white. To turn a blind eye to that fact only serves to make you color _blind."_

Explain how you lying and saying that 94% of immigrants to this country are not white can be some not-racist thing to say? Some very racist people say that. Why should we believe your lies instead of taking your words at their face value as part and parcel of the white genocide fake conspiracy theory that white supremacists espouse?


----------



## Budley Doright (Dec 2, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I don't believe that white people are superior to people with any other skin color. You are projecting
> 
> 
> Social justice workers do indeed care about skin color, because non-white communities have been marginalized for years.
> ...


Where does the you hiring workers come into play? Doesn’t your collective bargaining contract layout exactly what is expected of the union worker and employer?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 2, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> I merely recite what you say and you deny ever saying it. No, you lying sack of shit, not projecting one bit. I'm just speaking facts. You? not so much.


Where did I say that I thought white people are superior? Show me that quote.



Budley Doright said:


> Where does the you hiring workers come into play? Doesn’t your collective bargaining contract layout exactly what is expected of the union worker and employer?


Business Agent runs the hiring hall, and is responsible for dispatch of workers to contracted employers. Contracts with the employer are signed by the business agent, who ensures that the employer operates legitimately. You are current however, technically the union doesn't hire anyone as the union is not the employer.

I am currently not the business agent however, since 9 years ago. I do however hire workers at my full time job, as my union affiliation is now only side-work for me.


----------



## Fogdog (Dec 2, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Also, I get emails like this at the end of the year for my small business..
> 
> View attachment 4430645


Actually, it's not recommended that anybody send an unsecured filled out w-9 via e-mail. 

I get why a Russian troll might want others to do that, though.


----------



## Fogdog (Dec 2, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Where did I say that I thought white people are superior? Show me that quote.


too funny that you want proof of anything.

I directly quoted your reciting the false white genocide theory that white supremacists maintain. Then you ask for proof you are racist.

Yep, that makes me laugh.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 2, 2019)

Fogdog said:


> It was about the "you will not replace us" kind of white supremacist white genocide myth and you know it.


Thing is I never said that. or supported that notion at all. As I've said before, and something that social justice professionals support, is that yes it's important to know what races are being discriminated against when it comes to immigration. Having awareness of who is being discriminated against is not racist, rather it's quite the opposite. Just because you have a narrow view of specific words being associated with white supremacy, doesn't mean that was the intention of my words, and I've pointed out from the start that it was not my intention, however you are insistent to project such intention onto me.

The fact, is that I fully support open immigration, and I do not think that any groups are superior based on their race or skin color. I'm not sure how you think you can know my intentions better than I know them myself.

Also as I've said, I've studied social justice, and am aware that the color-blind mentality is not what scholars with PhDs in the field are advocating for in 2019. I've supported my position with multiple writings by professors and social justice professionals, but you haven't even looked at them, choosing to remain ignorant, while attempting to project your ignorance onto me.

Read the articles I've posted on the subject, and then we can have a logical debate if you like. If you choose to continue in ignorance and just shout "racist" or "gaslighting", it just shows that you are incapable of having a logical debate instead of calling names like a 5-year old would do.


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 2, 2019)

This racist gaslighter thinks we all didn’t get exactly what he meant when he said “race matters when it comes to immigration, only 4% of immigrants are white!”


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 2, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> This racist gaslighter thinks we all didn’t get exactly what he meant when he said “race matters when it comes to immigration, only 4% of immigrants are white!”


Yeah clearly you didn't get it, so you decided to project instead of just asking. I'd love to debate you in person where you can't escape into 5-year old type antics.


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 2, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Yeah clearly you didn't get it, so you decided to project instead of just asking. I'd love to debate you in person where you can't escape into 5-year old type antics.


No I did get exactly what you meant, everyone did

You are very concerned about non White immigrants 

That’s because you’re a racist


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 2, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> No I did get exactly what you meant, everyone did
> 
> You are very concerned about non White immigrants
> 
> That’s because you’re a racist


I'm concerned yes, but my concern is about discrimination. Not racist. Are you not concerned about discrimination of minoritized communities?


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 2, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I'm concerned yes, but my concern is about discrimination


No one buys that


----------



## Fogdog (Dec 3, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Thing is I never said that. or supported that notion at all. As I've said before, and something that social justice professionals support, is that yes it's important to know what races are being discriminated against when it comes to immigration. Having awareness of who is being discriminated against is not racist, rather it's quite the opposite. Just because you have a narrow view of specific words being associated with white supremacy, doesn't mean that was the intention of my words, and I've pointed out from the start that it was not my intention, however you are insistent to project such intention onto me.
> 
> The fact, is that I fully support open immigration, and I do not think that any groups are superior based on their race or skin color. I'm not sure how you think you can know my intentions better than I know them myself.
> 
> ...


when a person tells you who they are, one should listen. You could have said anything but instead you cited some bizarre false statistic that 96% of all immigrants to this country are non-white. Your mask slipped and you showed us what your are. It is completely understandable that a white racist troll would be upset that his cover was blown by a mistake. It's clear that you are trying to recover by gaslighting us just like your white supremacist president does. He denies things he said on the record just like you do. 

pro-tip: It doesn't even work for Trump. 

But you'll keep lying. I don't know why you keep lying to us. Nobody believes or likes you here. You should go to that forum you told us likes you. You need a break from RIU.


----------



## zeddd (Dec 3, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> Thing is I never said that. or supported that notion at all. As I've said before, and something that social justice professionals support, is that yes it's important to know what races are being discriminated against when it comes to immigration. Having awareness of who is being discriminated against is not racist, rather it's quite the opposite. Just because you have a narrow view of specific words being associated with white supremacy, doesn't mean that was the intention of my words, and I've pointed out from the start that it was not my intention, however you are insistent to project such intention onto me.
> 
> The fact, is that I fully support open immigration, and I do not think that any groups are superior based on their race or skin color. I'm not sure how you think you can know my intentions better than I know them myself.
> 
> ...


Your use of notion renders you ignorable.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 3, 2019)

I see that no one left in this thread has any reasonable debating skills and have instead simply continued with name calling and finger pointing. The is school yard stuff kids.


----------



## blu3bird (Dec 3, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I see that no one left in this thread has any reasonable debating skills and have instead simply continued with name calling and finger pointing. The is school yard stuff kids.


Look Mrs Diaz, you've had your ass kicked all over this thread. You want more?

Putting people into separate groups and treating them differently based on skin color is racism, it's not "social justice".

You're a racist sack of shit


----------



## Fogdog (Dec 3, 2019)

PJ Diaz said:


> I see that no one left in this thread has any reasonable debating skills and have instead simply continued with name calling and finger pointing. The is school yard stuff kids.


Debating requires an honest adherence to facts and the willingness to concede when the other person has the better argument. One example of your use of false claims to "win" a debate are your claims about Clinton made in this thread:





__





After 4.5 years, millions of dollars, and thousands of insults, the investigation into Hillary Clinton's emails is over.


And absolutely no wrongdoing was found. Go figure.



www.rollitup.org






The ad-hominum attack that you made in your recent post is another example of why your "debate me" plea should be ignored.


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 5, 2019)

I finally got around to chatting with the billing department today about what they tried to charge ($9,233.47) and what my insurance company talked them down to (a still obscenely high amount)

They said the cost to simply admit me as a “level 3” emergency was $4,850

I didn’t ask what level 3 emergency meant, but I did ask if that meant I was charged $4,850 for a triage nurse to walk me through the sliding glass doors. They said yes. 

I know the nurses aren’t being paid that well so I suppose their bracelet printer is just very top notch 

Our healthcare system is a sham. It needs to be completely reworked top to bottom


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 5, 2019)

My wife and I are opposed on the issue of urgent care centers. I think they should be abolished along with private insurance 

She pointed out that I would have faced a less costly bill if I had gone to one, and she is correct. But they are still profit mills in strip malls who think medical needs stop existing between 10 pm and 7 am. I will never go to one based on general principle 

This whole system we use is a mess. Your medical bill should not be predicated upon what time of day you have medical needs. 

Just tax me on my paycheck and let everyone go get healthcare from the hospital when they need it

I’ll gladly pay more in taxes for this


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## Budley Doright (Dec 6, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> My wife and I are opposed on the issue of urgent care centers. I think they should be abolished along with private insurance
> 
> She pointed out that I would have faced a less costly bill if I had gone to one, and she is correct. But they are still profit mills in strip malls who think medical needs stop existing between 10 pm and 7 am. I will never go to one based on general principle
> 
> ...


We have urgent care after hour walk-ins here but they still are OHIP billed and patients are not billed. You wouldn’t go for stitches or a broken arm though. They fill a need for people that have no family doctor and saves resources at hospitals that are overrun with patients. I’m sure it is a different structure there but here they do fill a need. They have now started online care centres where as you sit in front of a monitor and talk remotely to an MD .


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## blu3bird (Dec 6, 2019)

Budley Doright said:


> We have urgent care after hour walk-ins here but they still are OHIP billed and patients are not billed. You wouldn’t go for stitches or a broken arm though. They fill a need for people that have no family doctor and saves resources at hospitals that are overrun with patients. I’m sure it is a different structure there but here they do fill a need. They have now started online care centres where as you sit in front of a monitor and talk remotely to an MD .


There's an app for my BCBS insurance that I can speak to a doctor through the app. I haven't done it yet, but I think it's pretty damn sweet.

As long as I didn't shoot a nail into my finger, I don't have to deal with a med center. The BCBS app is tits, no sitting in a waiting room with screaming kids for hours in some uncomfortable chair. No filling out tons of forms,. A couple of clicks on my phone and I'm connected to and speaking with a doctor BOOM SHAKA LAKA

I bet M4A won't have an app like that. I love my private insurance


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## UncleBuck (Dec 23, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> $9,233.47


Another bill arrived today 

the doctor who numbed me with me with nova cane and pulled the nail want $1027 for his service

$10,260.47 and counting 

(After insurance it’s only $88.56 but wtf)


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## abandonconflict (Dec 24, 2019)

Well, yet another die hard Bernie supporter turns out to be a racist shit stain...

Can't say I'm surprised.


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## Budley Doright (Dec 24, 2019)

UncleBuck said:


> Another bill arrived today
> 
> the doctor who numbed me with me with nova cane and pulled the nail want $1027 for his service
> 
> ...


FFS for $100 I would have given you a few oxy’s, a 6 ounce shot of tequila and pulled the bitch out lol


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