# Making salve/cannaoil/tincture/decarb questions, help plzzz!!!



## Tlalocman (Feb 11, 2014)

Hi guys! After scouring the forum for a couple of months (as well as a few other, less awesome forums) I've reached a point where I'm not finding answers to my few remaining doubts (or the info I have found is batshit confusing) and thus I am writing this post. Im planning on making both salve for rubbing on your skin and oil for eating (maybe alcohol tincture instead, Im thinking its easier). Ive made all three of these products before, with varying results, and its these variations that Im looking to get rid of. 

Some general info on the batch: Im using about 80/20 of bud/trim from a very nice homegrown plant (way better than any of the mexibrick shit, which is all we have where I live) so Im sure potency isnt part of my problems. The weed was cured for about a month before being closed for good, and the last 4 months of smoking it have vouched for potency and proper curing/preserving. The basic process Ive planned out for both products is:

1.- Decarbing the chopped weed (¿1, 2?)
2.- Extraction (¿3?)
3.-Cool and strain
4.-GET HIGH! And finish the salve

By finish the salve I mean adding stuff to the cannaoil. Coconut oil to be precise, plus beeswax (thats all that makes the salve!) and maybe something to smell nice, and a preservative? (¿5?) I like to keep it simple. Oh yeah, you notice those numbers with the ¿? As you might have guessed, those are my questions, sooooo let us begin:

1? Im now pretty sure decarboxylation is real/necessary, despite the hordes of idiots saying otherwise. So decarbing for the tincture is a given, but what about the salve? Do I need to decarb for the salve? Does my bum knee want the Thc or the ThcA? Or both? Cbd? Etc?

2? Is natural decarbing over time real or bullshit? Im asking because the weed being used is (as mentioned) home grown, home cured, so it was harvested 4-5 months ago, maybe a bit more. Its in glass jars in a dark cool place, so no spoiling right? But is it still decarbing? Do I have to put it through a whole decarbing time or maybe just half? And, I might as well ask now, what is your decarbing process for eating weed?

3? The extraction process always makes me feel uneasy. Is it hot enough? Has it boiled long enough? Did I burn any of the good stuff? Did I extract all I could? Does this extra heat keep decarbing my weed!?!? Im sure this is where most of the variations in my results come from... Oh well, thats why Im here. 
So, what to use: A) double boiler? Or B) just 1 pot with water mixed with the oil and weed? Got no crockpot, before we go there hahaha. I think I've gotten better results with option B, but can that burn any of the good stuff? I use coconut oil because it solidifies and easily separates from the water. Is it true just putting water in the oil will keep the thc from burning? Or should I be using a double boiler? Even if its just a make shift one? Or should I go so far as doing both, double boiling the water/oil/weed mixture? Finally, how long and at what temp do you extract your cannabutter?

4? This one bugs me, mostly because it is very subjective... Weed quantities? Its hard to decide for the butter or tincture, Im high tolerance but my friends arent, sooooo Im thinking Between 1 oz bud per 1 lb oil, max 4 oz per pound? Ill be using either 1lb oil or 1lb alcohol (or close enough for simplicity's sake). Lets look at it this way, how many grams of weed (extracted into the oil or alcohol) do you normally eat?
A quantity for the salve should be easier to decide, right? Less than what I use for the cannaoil, soooo Between 1/4 oz and 1/2 oz weed per 1lb oil? Maybe 1 oz per lb? Does anyone have a clue whats the minimum effective dose as a salve?

5? What is a simple and common preservative? Something to keep the salve from spoiling? The last batch I made was quite large, and I couldnt give so much of it away soooo it stockpiled and spoiled. Nothing too bad, just the last couple of small jars, but still... This batch is gonna be huuuuge, so I think a preservative is needed. Ideally something organic, but honestly I dont give a fuck, Id rather KISS ; ) Any suggestions for an added fragrance?

6? And fiiiinally, do you prefer oil or tincture? The extraction and straining seems easier to me with the alcohol tincture (I make tincture by boiling a jar of alcohol/weed in a slightly-below-boiling pot of water)... What say you? Are there any advantages for the high in using the coconut oil instead?

So, after what IMO is a slightly obsessed list of questions, there is nothing left for me to do but wait for your answers. Thanks in advance to everybody in the forum, all the info thats already here is whats gotten me this far in the process. See you soon!


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## vostok (Feb 11, 2014)

Welcome to RIU.org
Your onestopshop for all matters cannabis, take a look around but I should advise you that the fabulous "Like" button, is broken, instead buried below is the equivalent, reputation button that works almost the same., so if you see or read something you like, well! you can't like until it's fixed but you can click the Rep button to show your appreciation.



https://www.rollitup.org/support/789405-like-button-temp-disabled.html


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## joeybags (Feb 12, 2014)

So to try and answer as many questions as possible yes decarboxylation is 100% needed and no it does not happen naturally. I decarb my product by setting my oven to around 240 degrees and letting it decarb for at least 30 to 45 min. The main thing during this is to make the the oven does not get about 270 degrees as then the product can get too hot and vape out thc. Once you decarb you will notice the weed is a tad drier. For extraction you kind of half me lost with your method. Personally i prefer glycerin tinctures to the alcohol tinctures, they taste better and i believe it to be just as potent. glycerin might actually be more what your looking for anyway because you can rub it right on your skin. When i make it with glycerin my method is to put your product in mason jar, fill with glycerin and cover. then put the jar inside a crock pot thats filled with water. Keep the crock pot on low and the water will be warm, and warm the stuff inside your mason jar. I find this is a good method to use because as you mentioned in your post you don't want your product to get too hot while extracting. After about 3 or 4 hours take the mason jar out, strain and your good to go. I hope this helped, but you are on the right track.


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## Silly String (Feb 12, 2014)

Questions 4 regarding salves:

I did not do a decarb/bake in the oven with my trimmings when I made canna salve. I made mine in a crockpot on low (just the coconut oil and weed in there at first). I guess it decarbs in there. I used a gallon sized ziploc bag which was stuffed full of cabbage trim, stems & branches, popcorn buds. I NEVER use smokeable weed, as I just can't -- I feel like I'm wasting it... It's like an oz or two or three of trim.

I have also used an entire plant (maybe 2 feet in diameter, 3 feet tall), which was forgotten outside, and attacked by spider mites. (yes it had buds on it, but there's no effin way I would smoke or ingest those bugs!). 

I have not noticed any difference in the strength or pain relief abilities of the two different salves -- I was still blown away that they actually worked.

My ingredients: leaves/popcorn buds/trimmings/stems/branches, coconut oil, beeswax, and lime essential oil (for a nice, margarita scent).

Question 5


Simplest preservative? I stick mine in a mason jar, and store it in the fridge. I have smaller jars (the little jars from Bare Essentials powdery makeup work perfect) and I refill these as needed.


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## alwaysvaped (Feb 12, 2014)

I use sugar leaves and popcorn as my trim and decarb a 1/4 cup of ground trim. I put it into a mason jar with 1/2 cup of coconut oil and then into a water filled crockpot on low for 8 hours, shaking whenever you get a chance. You'll be left with about 2 ounces of nice green oil after your press. I then mix that with 1 ounce of a locally available balm that contains emu and capsicum. I mix that with another 1.5 ounces of another balm containing menthal. 1 tbs shea butter, 1 tbs Vit E oil and 1 tbs commercially available hemp massage oil. I combine all of these ingredients using a double boiler to melt the oils and balms all together. I then add bottled scent to mine, about 2 tsp each of cedarwood, orange and tea trea oil as a preservative. I then grated in 1/2 ounce of bees wax to set it a little more. Pour into containers and will last until you use it all. Pretty damn good stuff, it literally will make arthritis joint pain disappear in seconds. Pain relief lasts for a few hours, is good for your skin and smells good. I have made some for a few friends and they are amazed at what it can do. Good luck and I hope I was of some help. Please dont negatively critique my method, it works for me and I'm happy with it.


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## qwizoking (Feb 12, 2014)

1. For it a compound to have "drug likeness" it must have a polar surface area of less than 60 angstroms.. thca is 66.. this allows the molecule to cross the blood brain barrier and get you high/activate receptors....so yes you need to decarb it

2. Yes it will decarb naturally over time and is more efficient that way..the slower you decarb/the less heat you use the better. It will be naturally decarbed at the period you mentioned
If stored at room temp 

3. I use hash oil, easier more precise

4. Salves as in transdermally? If its strictly decarbed hash not much is really gonna absorb into you because its so lipophillic with a logP about 7 
After application, mean steady-state plasma concentration of &#916;8 -THC was 4.4 ng/ml within 1.4 h, and was maintained for at least 48 h. With cbd and cbn being slightly more permeable

In contrast immediately after the first cigarette puff... Concentrations increased rapidly, reaching mean peaks of 84.3 ng/ml (range 50&#8722;129) and 162.2 ng/ml (range 76&#8722;267) for the above two cigarettes,respectively(the differences between the 2 being potency of the smoke Ididn't list).... Peak concentrations occurred at 9.0 min, prior to initiation of the last puff sequence at 9.8

You could add propylene glycol or something high in fatty acids to increase this and I'm sure you could find a patent showing flux rates. I don't have the time
Your going to want to have at least 300mg of hash oil for good effect, good bud can yield around 20% by weight depending on methods of extraction and if hash oil was used

5. Vitamin e is commonly used for this purpose and is found in certain oils, some with a high fatty acid count..might use one of those (sun flower oil) or however you wanna do it....

6. In the cannabis community "tincture" normally refers to the sugar alcohol, glycerin, for its use sublingually..an ethanol tincture is normally referred to as green dragon...
I definitely would prefer a glycerin tincture over either ethanol tincture or a salve

Coconut oil is great..not for this though


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## Tlalocman (Feb 13, 2014)

Hell yeah! Thanks guys, things keep moving forward!

So I'm thinking I won't decarb the weed for the salve, mostly because its been sitting for 5 months. Should I still decarb for the tincture? (or green dragon), or maybe go 50/50 with what I throw in the alcohol. Note: I've made salve twice, NOT decarbed either and they both worked. This was made with mexibrick, so is that already decarbed cause its old or super compacted? (does pressure also decarb? Pressure makes heat, no?). I HAVE been decarbing for my tinctures, I make small batches testing out different decarb times and extraction times, with widely varying results... WTF?!?

As for the vitamin e, that sounded like an awesome idea, but after a quick googling it seems to me to be a mild preservative. I'll be making almost a gallon of salve, and even though a lot of it is gonna be given away, i'll still keep a stash, and i reeeeally don't want it to spoil again.

The propylene glycol is to help it absorb in the skin? Kinda like emu oil? I looked for the emu oil but couldn't find any. How would I add it to the salve? Just throw it in with the wax while it's still warm?

As for the extraction... Damn those crockpots, down here in mexico no one knows what they are... Oh well. For the salve I think I'll just mix water with the coconut oil/weed. Does the water keep the thc from burning? Is 3 hours good? 4? Some people go for 8! Can I boil it too much? For the tincture I use small jars in an almost boiling pot of water, water level up to (or close) to the alcohol. I started with 20 minutes, stuck with 30 min. Is that enough?

Just to clear things up: the salve is for topical use, pain relief. The green dragon is to get high of my ass  I originally intended it to be sub lingual, but FUCK! does that alcohol burn under the tongue. Live and learn right? Now I've stuck with the green dragon tincture because extracting the weed into the alcohol only requires me to boil it for 30 minutes or so (supposedly, is this right?), instead of 3-4 hours with the oil. And of course when I say I'm using weed, I'm using popcorn, wispy, inner buds that would suck to smoke. I'd cry throwing some big tight nugs in the salve.

Once again, thanks guys! I'll be lurking around


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## Tlalocman (Mar 12, 2014)

Well, this thread went pretty dead pretty quick. Ooooh well, that's ok, I'm done anyway. I'll post the results in case anyone cares, or for future reference for any uninformed souls wandering around.



These are all the ingredients, plus you actually get to read my recipe! In spanish though hahaha. 

1 Shit-ton of coconut oil
a bit less than half the weed pictured (4oz)
beeswax (more than pictured, and I should have still used more)
and extra oils for special added bonuses. 

All the essential oils are for conservation purposes, antifungus, antibacterial, etc... but each one has other purposes like anti-inflammation and the such, sooo yay! Vitamin E is an antioxidant (plus good for your skin ) and jojoba oil, just because I was feeling fancy hahaha. I think it helps as a transdermal agent, or at least as a locking agent. 



The finished results and amounts, a little over 3.5 liters, all the jars are filled brimming to the top, I could have used a couple more jars haha. Over half was immediately given away, and all the reports coming back have been very positive, although I'm still waiting on the most important opinions of all, a batch I sent to a group of arthritic grannies. Those are the ones that really need to work. Fingers crossed!


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## Rollituplightitup (Apr 16, 2014)

Hi* qwizoking, what amounts would you say are a good basic recipe for small amounts of salve,*
*starting with either bud,hash,or oil ? say you start with 1/8 th of an oz and higher ? The rest is not too hard find.*

*you said that in your previous post : *
*
Your going to want to have at least 300mg of hash oil for good effect,

you added this to how much salve ?*


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## qwizoking (Apr 16, 2014)

never use herb, it won't be strong enough and the oil doesn't make a good solvent.
saturate whatever oil mix with the hash. it will take just under 20mg per ml. if its not in solution it won't really be absorbed


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## Rollituplightitup (Apr 16, 2014)

What i mean by herb was what* Tlalocman did. *

when you say 20mg/ml of oil do you mean only hash or hash oil too ? just making sure.


also you mention in this quote that you prefer a glycerine tincture of ethanol or a salve, is it by preference or by best medicinal effects ,and can you share your glycerine tincture recipre ?

6. In the cannabis community "tincture" normally refers to the sugar alcohol, glycerin, for its use sublingually..an ethanol tincture is normally referred to as green dragon...
I definitely would prefer a glycerin tincture over either ethanol tincture or a salve

Last thing, you mention this too

Coconut oil is great..not for this though

do you mean that to make a good medicinal salve, coconut is not great if so which is better then i mean like basic oils would sun flower oil ,extra virgin olive oil glycerine and of course wax be good ?


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## qwizoking (Apr 16, 2014)

coconut oil is high In medium chain triglycerides, in the digestive system MCTs are broken down into individual fatty acids (MCFA). Unlike other fatty acids, MCFA are absorbed directly from the intestines into the portal vein and sent straight to the liver where they are, for the most part, burned as fuel much like a carbohydrate. In this respect they act more like carbohydrates than like fats.

Other fats require pancreatic enzymes to break them into smaller units. They are then absorbed into the intestinal wall and packaged into bundles of fat (lipid) and protein called lipoproteins. These lipoproteins are carried by the lymphatic system, bypassing the liver, and then dumped into the bloodstream, where they are circulated throughout the body. As they circulate in the blood, their fatty components are distributed to all the tissues of the body. The lipoproteins get smaller and smaller, until there is little left of them. At this time they are picked up by the liver, broken apart, and used to produce energy
MCTs do not require bile salts for digestion and therefore, passively absorbed by the intestinal tract into the blood stream where they are used for energy,

for topicals you want oil high in low weight unsaturated fatty acids. oleic is great for example, shorter chains are more polar and penetrate easier

unrefined sunflower oil is best for topicals if you can get it

a glycerin tincture hits the blood stream immediately, bypassing the liver which normally converts thc in edibles to delta 11etc, so it has a faster onset and the high is more comparable to the smoked herb the hash came from..a salve has extremely low flux rates, not really good for getting high, but good for certain conditions, you can selectively apply it only to an area that needs it making it especially useful for topical cancers and inflammation etc.. thc doesn't like to absorb through your skin as I mentioned above, but cbd and cbn are more polar so absorb faster. therefore the route of administration effectively alters the cannabinoid ratio..

when I say hash, I mean a collection of trichomes. wether sieved solvent made or whatever.

coconut oil is for edibles. also when I say get high, I mean flood cannabinoid receptors. I realize some are activating receptors for medical reasons

for any method you should decarb hash over a double boil watching it. slowly add to warm oil/alcohol until saturated.


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## Rollituplightitup (Apr 16, 2014)

Thank you *qwizoking* for your help.


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## qwizoking (Apr 16, 2014)

if you need anything else feel free to ask. I enjoy discussing the pharmacological aspects of our great herb


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## qwizoking (Apr 16, 2014)

Hey I remember you now.
if you aren't wanting to get high, don't decarb it, to get a high it has to hit your brain.. but it really depends what ails you. and it does effect binding affinities as well as permeation, the compound is smaller and less polar after being decarbed. The receptors like it better.

another option you might try is breaking down the thc. heat it in solution not air or too much cbn will form. cbd and cbn both are extremely stable, well relatively..this will decarb it but you will have much higher ratios ofcbd and what thc remains wont be as potent, most will be delta 8 etc further broken down


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## Rollituplightitup (Apr 16, 2014)

Will do, its a pleasure talking about the good things in life!

Well in the new thread i made; i asked on how to make a non recreational tincture but thats another thing.

So what you are saying here,is that if i dont decarb theres not going to be much effects if at all and ...

if you heat the solution for an extended period of time for the purpose of breaking the thc down into canabinol and cbd . This will render the finished product with a more narcotic and sedative effect is that correct ? And how long would you say to heat for an extended time ? and whats the max temp ?


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## qwizoking (Apr 16, 2014)

Well cbd effects the brain as does thc, and I don't just mean cb receptors., cbd doesn't give the euphoric slightly trippy up high though. and unlike cb1, cb2 receptors are located throughout the body and you can feel certain medicinal effects from cbda as the compounds only need decarbed to cross the blood brain barrier. but you miss out on alot of benefits from cbd as well as other compounds this way.

thc breaks down into less potent products as pieces of it are removed and rotated. the first one an most studied is delta 8 thc, its 30% less potent while being about that much more stable. it continues like this becoming more stable and less potent, harder to remove... cbn forms from oxidation and through enzymes,the also breaks apart at just over 400° its properties aren't preferred to most though

so if its a strain low in cbd this is still useful as properties are altered as it breaks down. cbn might then benefit you, it really depends what your trying to achieve

but it's not as fast as most think. it really needs to hit 400° to start rapidly forming cbn and 2 hours will break about 2/3 of it down.(reflux that btw)
so a high cbd ratio to start is great


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## fumble (Apr 18, 2014)

hey Quizo...I know you have said it a million times, but I still can't picture how to do it. do you maybe have a pic of how you decarb your hash? I do mine like BKS does...in a dish covered with foil. It works great, but if your way is better, well then...


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## fumble (Apr 18, 2014)

and are you saying that the glycerine tincture can be used topically?


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## Texas(THC) (Apr 21, 2014)

hot oil bath
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/decarboxylation/


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## fumble (Apr 21, 2014)

Thank YOU Texas...appreciate the answer. I see now that this is way different than the way I do it. I am not working with BHO. I am decarbing dry iced hash. I spread it out in an oven proof dish and cover tightly with foil. Put in cold oven at 220f for 20 to 30 minutes (depends on freshness). Decarbed. Again, appreciate the answer


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## qwizoking (Apr 21, 2014)

if the hash Is quality it will melt and act just like hash oil. a double boiler for chocolate etc, a bowl on top of a pot.. and watch it decarb.. the good folks at ncbi have deemed the graph inaccurate, though that should be obvious.

No straight glycerine is not that great transdermally


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## Texas(THC) (Apr 22, 2014)

@ fumble oops didnt realize you were using dry ice hash

@Qwiz - are you talking about the graph I posted in the link?


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## qwizoking (Apr 22, 2014)

yup


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## Texas(THC) (Apr 22, 2014)

Good to know, ive always been a lil skeptical of the graph since it was published in 1990
hell I wasn't even born yet! LOL

Can you cite your sources please? would love to read up on it
or any other info to share
thanks


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## qwizoking (Apr 22, 2014)

Pharmaceutical applications of hot melt-extrusion: part I.

AuthorsCrowley MM, et al.
Journal
Drug Dev Ind Pharm. 2007 Sep;33(9):909-26.

can't seem to get the full text for free anymore


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## qwizoking (Apr 22, 2014)

here's what it says though.
numbers from them, my wording.
when decarbed at 500(your lighter) 50% or so makes it as intact thc when decarbed at 210 70% makes it..when decarbed at 170 something like 81% when decarbed without heat its in the low 90's/high 80's...at that point light and air oxidation will play a factor and limit you, also decarbing will never give a 100% return as the cooh group is missing..
thca converts to active thc now a smaller molecule, the rest is degraded to delta 8 and to a lesser extent some cbn is formed...cbn starts to rapidly form just over 400°f
A natural decarb at room temp about 26°c will take about 5 months...it will lower exponentially based on its half life of 35 days...


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## Texas(THC) (Apr 22, 2014)

ok i think i remember you posting this before
i will have to try it at 170
makes more sense..
thanks again


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## fumble (Apr 22, 2014)

No...that's awesome Texas. You gave me exactly what I was looking for. Thank you 

*@ fumble oops didnt realize you were using dry ice hash*


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## Texas(THC) (Apr 23, 2014)

your welcome
nice journal by the way!


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## fumble (Apr 23, 2014)

why thank you


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## HumbleNMotivated (Apr 26, 2014)

I've got some patients looking for salves and found the information in this thread particularly interesting. Especially the info posted by Qwiz about the process of metabolization of the various oil types.

Do you have any recommendations for the process of infusing unrefined sunflower oil with cannabis? I'm familiar with making edibles with coconut oil in a crock pot with water and trim. But I'm assuming that I can't supplement the sunflower oil with water as it doesn't solidify like coconut oil does. I have access to all the various types of hash (bubble, bho, co2, etc), trim, bud, and stems.


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## qwizoking (Apr 27, 2014)

you really shouldn't try and extract with the carrier, if orally that carrier should be coconut, sunflower transdermally and glycerin is great sublingually.
the main reason being that you simply can't reduce it. dissolution rates into the carrier lower exponentially as saturation increases. meaning you will lose a fair amount of product without running so much solvent that it's horribly diluted..

you really need to start with hash and add that to the carrier of choice until it's saturated. this should be done at roughly 110° or just a hot water bath etc, just warm..


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## HumbleNMotivated (Apr 27, 2014)

Very interesting. Now you've got me rethinking my way of making coconut oil as I've been extracting with the carrier for the longest time. You've got me now picturing unused plant desireables not saturating the carrier each and every batch...  Wonder how much THC I've thrown away? I suppose it helps knowing weight wise how much you've put in as well.

Thanks qwiz.


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