# Temps With 1500ppm Co2??



## FLoJo (Mar 30, 2009)

I have read that research suggests that the most gains are seen with temps of 90-95 degrees and 1500ppms... some others say 85 degrees is optimal temps, while others still say that 75-78 is ideal...

who grows with co2 sealed rooms and what are your experiences with temperature?


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## lampshade (Mar 30, 2009)

FLoJo said:


> I have read that research suggests that the most gains are seen with temps of 90-95 degrees and 1500ppms... some others say 85 degrees is optimal temps, while others still say that 75-78 is ideal...
> 
> who grows with co2 sealed rooms and what are your experiences with temperature?


I dont use CO2 but i do know this, DONT run with 75-78. Thats ideal for normal CO2 rates, you need to turn up the heat just a tad when you turn up the CO2.

Im not sure about the 85 or 95 though. Id just stay right in the middle if you dont get any good replies. Stay right under 90, and if they start to wilt you know what to do. Good Luck, Lamp.


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## FLoJo (Mar 31, 2009)

ya i know that when the temp is raised it increases their respiration, and allows them to use more co2, but im just wondering if it would be possible to run em that high, and even have ppms of co2 at like 2000 with even higher temps... unfortunately there is not much out there about documenting co2 and the differences it really makes and under what conditions


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## LoudBlunts (Mar 31, 2009)

1500ppms is plenty


2000 is overkill...may harm plants and is just wasteful, imho


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## FLoJo (Mar 31, 2009)

LoudBlunts said:


> 1500ppms is plenty
> 
> 
> 2000 is overkill...may harm plants and is just wasteful, imho



i agree but what i am trying to figure out is what is the ideal temp and ppm for running a room with co2, and do increased levels allow for higher temps or is there a ceiling to what the plants can use?

the problem is that right now with my room vented it stays about 78-82 degrees but when i turn off the vents and seal the room the temp goes up to about 92-95 degrees.. and i just bought a dual co2 reg, 2 tanks, a sentinel co2 meter and some other goodies to run co2, so i am trying to figure out if i need to get an ac and run it in intervals into the room, or if i can just run an intake once an hour for 15 mins to keep it in the high 80s low 90s..

but i cant find many documented grows with proper co2, and there is not a terrible amount of reliable info out there, so thats why im here hehe

the guy that goes around grow rooms in canada the urban grower has documented rooms easily running 1800ppms so im confused


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## LoudBlunts (Mar 31, 2009)

wow! i have the igs220 but i want the sentinel chhc-1 SO FREAKING Baddd...i have a few sentinel controllers and digital timers...i love those things...freaking bad ass.

In my humble opinion, when you said you seal up everything you get 92-95F or somewhere around there...that sounds fucking perfect just about to run that 1500 ppms

optimal co2 in normal air outside is around 300 ppms...this is why they tell you to run 1200ppms on your system and with the intake coming in from the outside it will add and give you 1500ppms total

As far as your ceiling question, im not 100% sure, but im sure there is a ceiling....and im thinking that would be around 2000-2500ppm....but like you said some growers claim success with that...but i think in order to benefit from 2000ppms you need to have everything right especially temps. This is another reason why I dont think its worth the cost of wasting gas nor do i think you 'll see any more benefit from using the 2000ppms as opposed to the 1500ppms...but then again i could be wrong. Once you supply it with that many ppms of co2 you have to make sure you are feeding more, they have adequate lighting to be able to digest all the co2 in photosynthesis process.

I would run cycles of 1500ppms....let the plants soak it up for 30 mins to 1hr with the exhaust turned off, while leaving the intake turned ON. Then i would cycle the old used up co2ish air out (exhaust on) and refresh with more co2.


its always trial in error. The key is dialing it for your specified op.


Hope that helps


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## FLoJo (Mar 31, 2009)

LoudBlunts said:


> wow! i have the igs220 but i want the sentinel chhc-1 SO FREAKING Baddd...i have a few sentinel controllers and digital timers...i love those things...freaking bad ass.
> 
> In my humble opinion, when you said you seal up everything you get 92-95F or somewhere around there...that sounds fucking perfect just about to run that 1500 ppms
> 
> ...


i just got the cppm1 but if it turns out to be a good quality product, i plan on picking up a few timers and other things from sentinel.

now why would i intake and exhaust more air? the plants will use up the co2 and replace it with oxygen, which would make the controller pump out more co2 to maintain the levels... it seems to me the only time i would want to intake or exhaust is if the temps got too out of control right??

and man if low 90s is ideal for 1500 ppms then im gonna have an interesting grow hehe im excited!!


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## LoudBlunts (Mar 31, 2009)

that is just my opinion of course


and the reason i would still intake is because fresh air is fresh air. you would exhaust at the end of every cycle to exhaust old co2 air. that is when a controller would then kick in to push in fresh co2 @ user desired levels


sure you could only exhaust when the temps are too...which normally does...but some folks do it x way others do it y way and others the z way.

honestly if you have the right controller i would definitely let it work out for you. thas why i like my igs220 so much.....but i want the sentinel chhc-1 that is one baddddd bitch. My igs220 is the same thing, except i dont have an external sensor device/probe thingie and i put tape over the lights cuz i dont want shit to hermie. The CHHC-1 on the other hand does

here's the CHHC-1 demo:

[youtube]qt8w91szgiY[/youtube]

hell i may just 2 of these...i want one for my cab for sure.

the sentinel drt-1 is a bad ass recycle timer too.....programmable down to the second! love my sentinel gear. 

i dont think you'll be disappointed


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## FLoJo (Mar 31, 2009)

i could probably exhaust a couple times a day for the hell of it.. tweak it a bit..

ya that is a bad mofo, i just have the cppm1 but its still nice, now im wishin i woulda spent the extra to pick it up lol oh well, i can get one for my other grow i suppose hehe..

so u think the plants will be thriving at 90-95 and 1500ppm with rh in control?

who else has some experience with co2?

thanks again loudblunts +rep


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## LoudBlunts (Mar 31, 2009)

anywhere from 85F on up is good imo...(any less would be too cold)

i wouldnt go higher than that 95F though


and no problem, glad to help


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## FLoJo (Mar 31, 2009)

cool and do you run co2 in your setup? if so what are your temps?


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## FLoJo (Mar 31, 2009)

also i was wondering if my room temps are up there like 90 degrees, my res temps are going to be pretty high as well... wont this cause root problems? or do i need to buy a res chiller too LOL


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## LoudBlunts (Mar 31, 2009)

yes i have co2...i have tanks with the igs220 enviro + co2 controller.

however, im not currently running it, i want to reassemble and/or upgrade some things a little bit. i may use the igs220 for my SJ DarkRoom..... and buy a chhc-1 for my cab...not sure yet.

when i ran temps it was around 83ish to 85 all the way up to 95F

i like to play around and experiment a bit....i sometimes find with mid to high temps (high 80s low 90s) encourage more water uptake anyway....

as far as your res chiller questions, in short.....yes.

any hydroponic reservoir, imo needs to be kept at 60-68F. 65-68F is the sweet spot.

res chillers are pricey, but man can they save your ass and produce nice pretty xrated type root porn and buds


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## FLoJo (Mar 31, 2009)

man that sucks LOL maybe i can just improvise and throw some of those freezable ice packs in there every day.. or run a garden hose coiled through a bucket of ice.. is the res temps more to stave off pathogens? could i supplement with h2o2 every few days


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## LoudBlunts (Mar 31, 2009)

sure of course you could freeze water bottles (i wouldnt use those freeze packs thingies) and put them in there.... are your roots hanging in the res at all? or you still going vertical with a big res?

well shit yea, freeze a whole 24 pack and keep dumping every few hours......be warned: hella tedious.

be better off getting a chiller. more consistency equals better results

h202 does not fully kill off anything. it just release that extra and oxidizing (or something) 

anything over 70-75F in the res is asking for trouble. basically breaking ground building a hotel for pathogens and you've just had a grand opening party with 50% off on all vacant rooms (of course while they last)


physan 20 is good if you ever have serious root rot/pathogen problems.

but you must get that res temp right. other systems (aero, dwc, etc etc) may be MORE picky about it....but all hydroponic reserviors need to be light tight, chilled, solution moving


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## FLoJo (Mar 31, 2009)

ya i am going vert with a small res lol its only a 50 gallon but its the largest my room can take.. this means i am constantly putting in fresh cold water and adjusting ppm ph, so the res stays nice and healthy.. ya i did a lil research and since my temps are always 72-80 i guess i have always been in a good place as far as res temps go... having the co2 and the increased temps is gonna fuck with me tho

im doing the vert with the hugo 6x6 rockwool blocks, but i think i found a good diy chiller from a watercooler.. i can get my temps down 15 degrees or so for 25 bucks which would be nice.. id love to splurge and get a chiller, but i know im gonna be changing up my system soon so i wanna wait it out.. guess i gotta tackle my new problem, res temps lol


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## Xan2 (Mar 31, 2009)

FLoJo said:


> also i was wondering if my room temps are up there like 90 degrees, my res temps are going to be pretty high as well... wont this cause root problems? or do i need to buy a res chiller too LOL


I don't think you will have root problems but alot of evaporation lol.

Water reservoir temps can safely be between 66F and 82F.


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## FLoJo (Mar 31, 2009)

im not sure what my res temps are, but usually they are about 10 degrees below ambient if they are on the ground.. ill have to get a thermometer and check..

i have a smaller res that i top often, so im thinkin i may just get a few large soda bottles and drop in the frozen goodness every few hours.. ya its a bitch but i dont have the space for a chiller right now, and my temps are already gonna be high, having a chiller is just gonna put the heat back into the air... 

i think if i put some frozen big ass soda bottles in there, along with heavy aeration and h202 it should be good to go.. ill have to get a thermometer and find out i suppose


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## born2killspam (Mar 31, 2009)

Don't forget that there is a difference between ambient unexhausted heat, and heat produced locally on/inside the leaf due to photon bombardment, and that will expand the stomata as needed to absorb more CO2.. Raising temps alone isn't going to help, you need more light to process more CO2


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## LoudBlunts (Mar 31, 2009)

Xan2 said:


> I don't think you will have root problems but alot of evaporation lol.
> 
> Water reservoir temps can safely be between 66F and 82F.



that is phony baloney, imo


show me a plant thas grown in 70F-82F res temp conditions...


i can make a bet that plant didnt make it...and/or if it did....it had alot of problems and didnt yield much


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## FLoJo (Mar 31, 2009)

born2kill im not sure im following you.. i have 2400w in a small area i dont think i need more light lol..

LoudBlunts, i have been reading and i just dont see how it will make that big of a diff because since i am doing ebb and flow with rockwool my plants are going to get fed 4x a day max for 15 mins which means they will mostly be exposed to ambient air anyways?? i can see how in dwc, aero or something where they are constantly exposed to the nute solution that it would make a big diff but i donno bout ebb n flo


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## born2killspam (Mar 31, 2009)

Well thats enough.. Possibly too much.. I have a nice detailed pdf on photosynthesis that actually covers problems caused by too much light.. Simply put, photosynthesis doesn't flip on like a light, but rather builds up like a fire through the early day.. If intensity is too high, it can hit redline levels.. High CO2, and low O2 combat this.. PM me with an email address if you want the pdf.. Its roughly 2MB (~30pgs), and very technical chemistry wise..
How many square feet??
Oh, and forget the 2L ice bottles.. Yes you do need to cool your res, but those just won't cut it unless you're always on the job.. A MacGyvered system to cycle the res water through a whack of tubing in a beer fridge could work.. Don't use copper though.. Sure its king when it comes to heat transfer, but it will poison your res since you're working with acidic water..


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## boston george 54 (Mar 31, 2009)

flow to answer ? and back on topic 

i got the chhc-1 and love it i have my high temp set at 93 when it hits 93 it turns my exhaust untill temps drop 4-6 degrees (still playing whith dead band)
plants are just loving the temps the best looking plants i have ever had by far.

this is my first run whith co2 and can not commet on temp but so far i have took the advice i was giving and seams to be going great 

as far as ppm settings this is what the best in fo i found own it 

When using elevated levels of CO2 the growth rate can be increased by as much as 100% to 200%. Most studies report increases in the 40% to 50% range. The ideal situation would be to keep the CO2 levels at optimum at all times. This would require constant
injection of low levels of gas (constantly replacing what the plants are using). This is not practical in most situations as venting of the growing environment is often needed to control heat build up. In these cases CO2 injection should be done immediately following venting. The biggest problem that people encounter when using CO2 is that they get carried away, they think that a little is good so a lot is better....NOT! When CO2 levels approach 2000 p.p.m. most plants will die. High levels of CO2 are also toxic to humans, primarily due to oxygen deficiency. Before injecting CO2 


now where is the new grow log ????????/


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## indawindica (Mar 31, 2009)

I run co2 at 1500 ppm and never let it get above 76. I'm also using a ac for temps. too high of temp and humidity can stunt growth.


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## LoudBlunts (Mar 31, 2009)

yes, thas why i said res temps are more picky in aero and ddwc and such...

However, im not specifically worried about your medium...im worried about the shit that may start growing in the res itself...doesnt matter what setup you have or what method you use.....if you use anytypehydroponics and have water in a reservior you can bet your ass it can fall victim to anything. especially if its exposed to air....

and yea i bet you are about to say 'well its covered and light tight..... doesnt matter if you are injecting air into the reservior via air pumps.

as i stated before ebb and flow isnt that picky, but it still falls under the rules of water...any water can be contaminated. especially warm water, yes even lukewarm water

thas my 2cents

good luck


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## born2killspam (Mar 31, 2009)

Another thing that can help combat certain growth (algae for instance) is to keep the res water dark.. You don't want your precious light feeding undesirables..


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## FLoJo (Mar 31, 2009)

ya and my res is not light tight because of how i have to drain it.. i guess ill make a DIY water chiller for the res and keep it stocked up with h202

and i think my system will work perfect cuz with my lights on for 2 hours closed system it only gets to about 93 degrees so i figure if i pump some cold air in there for 15 minutes every hour it will keep it in the low 90s fairly easily.. 

plus the regulator i have is a dual tank reg, and i ordered 2 new co2 tanks so it will always be at 1500ppms and ill be able to change out the tanks whenever needed without having to worry about diminishing levels of co2..

so now i just gotta make my DIY water chiller to at least keep it in the low 70s, and get this bitches pumping.. im fucking stoked haha

and boston, dont worry i dont wanna keep everyone in suspense so im gonna wait till its all setup and kicking, but if you look at my last journal it will be the same but now i have added the co2, more fans, and instead of soil ill be doing a 3x3 ebb and flo scrog on the bottom level... should be interesting

ill keep you guys posted, thanks for the help


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## LoudBlunts (Mar 31, 2009)

becareful with that h202....you may not even need it.

use it only when needed

good luck


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## sativaplanet420 (Mar 31, 2009)

FLoJo said:


> I have read that research suggests that the most gains are seen with temps of 90-95 degrees and 1500ppms... some others say 85 degrees is optimal temps, while others still say that 75-78 is ideal...
> 
> who grows with co2 sealed rooms and what are your experiences with temperature?



I would not go above 90. Make sure you only run 1200 ppm of c02, remember the air has about 300 ppm already. . . . .


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## FLoJo (Mar 31, 2009)

sativaplanet420 said:


> I would not go above 90. Make sure you only run 1200 ppm of c02, remember the air has about 300 ppm already. . . . .


yes but a co2 sensor sniffs the air around it to give you a total reading, ambient air plus co2

Loud why careful with h202... im on an all chem regiment ive always used it, and it does nothing but good


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## sativaplanet420 (Mar 31, 2009)

_hydrogen peroxide_ will _kill_ off the _beneficial_ microorganisms in some nutrients. C02 controllers are the shit!


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## LoudBlunts (Mar 31, 2009)

yup what sativa said bout h2o2


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## sativaplanet420 (Mar 31, 2009)

hahaha, nice quote you got there about germinating clones ahahaha


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## LoudBlunts (Mar 31, 2009)

lol ty..............(10 character minimum)


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## born2killspam (Mar 31, 2009)

You do gotta be careful with organisms beneficial or not and hydro.. Stuff can get plugged, or messed up in other ways like pH wise pretty quickly.. Hydro specific nutes are designed to be bioavailable without them.. Also, the enzyme mixes they sell attempt to mimick the beneficial byproducts of those beasties.. 
Soil buffers ALOT of things, and the nature of it keeps them where they should be with access to oxygen.. Alot of benefical organisms are aerobic ones, and water at these temps saturates with O2 at like 10ppm.. Don't get me wrong though.. Do be careful with the H2O2..


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## LoudBlunts (Mar 31, 2009)

thanks for the assist bro!


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## born2killspam (Mar 31, 2009)

Have you considered a UVC sterilization light for the res.. That would be an exception to the keep it dark rule.. (But other light should still be kept out..


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## boston george 54 (Mar 31, 2009)

indawindica said:


> I run co2 at 1500 ppm and never let it get above 76. I'm also using a ac for temps. too high of temp and humidity can stunt growth.


if you dont let your temps get above 76 your plants are not useing the co2 and you are wasteing your money 


flo sound like good log coming soon can not wait 
lets see 6pound pull this round


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## indawindica (Apr 1, 2009)

never had a problem with that. set my controller on 1500 and temps at 76 they love it. so it would be benefical to bump the temp up a bit? how about around 80?


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## FLoJo (Apr 1, 2009)

indawindica said:


> never had a problem with that. set my controller on 1500 and temps at 76 they love it. so it would be benefical to bump the temp up a bit? how about around 80?


bro this whole thread started about temps and co2... read it

ya i understand about h202 killing beneficials in hydro, but i have always believed that microorganisms in hydroponics are over rated.. 

they break down nutes into available forms in soil and help digest dead organic matter at the root zone.. both of these things are immensly important in a soil based system

a good chemical fert is chelated to the point where no further breakdown is needed, and the nutes have complete acess to the nutes they need at alll times and h202 dissolves and removes any dying organic matter.. 

the only time i think that beneficial bacterias are important in a hydro system is in initial rooting, and root forming stages, but not so much in later stages.. i donno what do you guys think?

im using house and garden for this run and there is no organic materials in any of it except for the roots excelerator which is not used past the first couple of weeks in flowering.


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## boston george 54 (Apr 1, 2009)

indawindica said:


> never had a problem with that. set my controller on 1500 and temps at 76 they love it. so it would be benefical to bump the temp up a bit? how about around 80?


i am by far no expert so take what i say whith a grain of salt 

from my RESERCH plants preform better at higher temps when co2 is injected 
reason is the plants increases their respiration, and allows them to use more co2

Standard growing conditions typically include concentrations of CO2 at 300-500 ppm, temperatures between 65-80°F, and relatively low humidity (20-40% rH). Studies have shown optimal growth and yields at 90-95°F, 1,500 ppm CO2, 45-50% relative humidity, 7,500-10,000 lumens/square foot of light, and vigorous air movement both above and below the canopy. 
CO2 enrichment under 80°F, under 7500 lumens/sf, or above 50% humidity is not recommended because plants will not be conducting photosynthesis quickly enough to benefit from the enrichment.

quoted from this thred titled Everything you ever need to know about co2 (LOL)
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=114590


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## born2killspam (Apr 1, 2009)

I don't see why they'd be any more beneficial at rooting stage.. I can't find any technical data on that though at all.. Just that its expensive, haven't even seen other write-ups mention organic compunds.. Can you post any/all details that you have on it??


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## FLoJo (Apr 1, 2009)

i dont have much technical data on it other than trial and error in the past.. 

i have used enzyme and algae products in hydro systems throughout entire grows and never really noticed a difference other than the cleanliness of the tanks..

however when rooting clones and establishing a root mass i feel like the organic compounds in algae combined with live microbes like enzymes help speed up the root development process.. i feel like it is a more mild and easy to digest form of nutrient which allows the plant to use the nutes better with a decreased root mass...again i have no technical data to prove it but im sure i can find some if ya want LOL

i think of it kinda like baby food.. when you have a little kid who is getting older, sure you could give them solid foods that are finely chopped up and what not, but its harder for them to eat, harder to digest, and overall not great for the baby..

however when you give them baby food that is in a much milder, and easy to digest form, the kid will eat better, have less digestive problems, and be overall in better health.. 

but once the kid grows up, it doesnt really matter what they eat, because they have the tools to break down the food and turn it into energy... as long as they are eating a good diet and getting proper nutrients, they will be healthy whether they eat creamed chicken, or chicken breast LOL

i donno sounds kinda elementary but it makes sense to me, and again i have never really noticed a great benefit of using enzymes and having beneficial microbes in the root mass in a hydro system.. as long as the roots are clean and sterile, and they have all the food they need


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## born2killspam (Apr 1, 2009)

Can't comment on the results, but most of the explaination behind that is misconceived.. Organics provide exactly the same macro nutrient compound when they break down.. Things like ammonia, nitrates, phosphates, and all the other salts organic nazi's always say they wouldn't touch with a 10' pole.. That being said, they also form other things not found in salt fertilizers, some, but not many of these things are directly usable by the plants, its mainly the soil microbes that thrive on them, and then they turn around and produce more ionic compounds for the plants.. (The only compounds that can be taken up through roots.. Water is polar, like dissolves like applies here..) 
Your baby food analogy is kind of ass backwards.. Salts are more like babyfood than more complex organic stuff.. That being said, theres that adage 'less is more', no perhaps you've accidentally poisoned them with other products in the past if you've determined a need for 'baby-food'..
My primary purpose for rooting gels is to seal up the cut, and avoid embolisms in the stem, although IBA can't hurt.. I really haven't ever noticed a giant difference in side by side tests with/without.. IMO, the best way to give them what they need to root, is to feed the mother a bit of high P fertilizer a day or so before taking cuts.. this puts the nutes roots need in the cutting itself, so it can cannibalize what it needs..
I really wish I could find an msds or the like on that product.. Given the price, one would hope there is something rare/beautiful in there, but think of how rich you could get if you can pull off the psychosomatic effect simply by putting a giant price tag on a common concoction..
Going out on a limb, hormones and amino acids etc are obviously organic, and some of those are alot more effective than others.. A product that expensive really deserves a side-by-side done by somebody who typically gets uniform results each and every time..
If you've got algae growth in your rooting medium that early that can be a problem.. A growing algae colony consumes far more nutrients than it would yield even if you had every beastie needed to break it down in there.. Before you have roots, the cuttings are at its mercy, and it isn't very merciful at all.. Its a competitor, not a friend in this game! If you can keep light off your rooting medium you won't regret it..


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## FLoJo (Apr 1, 2009)

alright bro you obviously got me all fucked up so im gonna break it down for you

first of all to clarify, when i say algae products or compounds, im not talking about the shitty green stuff that grows on your medium when you dont block it from the light properly. what i am talking about is organic compounds that are derived from items such as seaweed and kelp, and bio stimulants that are found in other beneficial algaes.. because remember, seaweed, kelp, etc. are all different forms of algae. these are organic compounds that have weak trace elements that are more easily absorbed by plants with developing roots, and have beneficial microbes that aide in the breakdown, and absorbtion of said materials. this is why they are good for clones and seedling because it is essentially a weak organic nute solution which will help push the plants along into development and reduce the stressing of rooting. 



born2killspam said:


> Can't comment on the results, but most of the explaination behind that is misconceived.. Organics provide exactly the same macro nutrient compound when they break down.. Things like ammonia, nitrates, phosphates, and all the other salts organic nazi's always say they wouldn't touch with a 10' pole..


exactly, thats why i was saying that having beneficial microbes in soil is important because they break down elements into a usable form of nutrient for the roots to absorb... its basically what a chemical nute company does when they chelate their products... they break it down into smaller more absorbable forms. the companies do it so the microbes dont have to



born2killspam said:


> That being said, they also form other things not found in salt fertilizers, some, but not many of these things are directly usable by the plants, its mainly the soil microbes that thrive on them, and then they turn around and produce more ionic compounds for the plants.. (The only compounds that can be taken up through roots.. Water is polar, like dissolves like applies here..)


microbes in the soil do not directly feed anything to the roots. they break down the compounds into usable forms so that the roots can uptake the nutrients. the enzymes break down and dissolve dead used organic compounds.. if microbes fed the roots directly, you would see much more usage of them in hydroponics, as well as greater yields. again because chemical fertilizers are already broken down into usable forms, the microbes are not needed.



born2killspam said:


> Your baby food analogy is kind of ass backwards.. Salts are more like babyfood than more complex organic stuff.. That being said, theres that adage 'less is more', no perhaps you've accidentally poisoned them with other products in the past if you've determined a need for 'baby-food'..


actually its not ass backwards, because if you break down what i was saying in my last post, the organic compounds ( seaweed, algaes, kelp) with beneficial microbes in root stimulants are used to help the roots grow with less stress that a highly concentrated chemical fertilizer would otherwise entail. that is why they are used, and that is why they work. i dont know if you follow my grows, but if you do you will see i know what im doing. i dont poison my plants and apply a band aid or feel a need for snake oil.. i have compared and contrasted different methods, and it is clear that a plant given a beneficial stimulant when rooting will grow better roots faster, and in turn grow bigger faster than without them. later in the growth cycle they will grow at the same speeds but it does provide an initial boost.. products like rhizotonic and roots excelerator are expensive for a reason. they work



born2killspam said:


> My primary purpose for rooting gels is to seal up the cut, and avoid embolisms in the stem, although IBA can't hurt.. I really haven't ever noticed a giant difference in side by side tests with/without..


you are talking about rooting hormones, i am talking about rooting stimulants.. all rooting hormones do is trigger the plant to produce roots maybe a day sooner, and seal the cutting from oxygen exposure in the stem as you said



born2killspam said:


> IMO, the best way to give them what they need to root, is to feed the mother a bit of high P fertilizer a day or so before taking cuts.. this puts the nutes roots need in the cutting itself, so it can cannibalize what it needs..
> I really wish I could find an msds or the like on that product.. Given the price, one would hope there is something rare/beautiful in there, but think of how rich you could get if you can pull off the psychosomatic effect simply by putting a giant price tag on a common concoction..


i agree, but again, you are comparing apples, whilst i am comparing oranges 



born2killspam said:


> Going out on a limb, hormones and amino acids etc are obviously organic, and some of those are alot more effective than others.. A product that expensive really deserves a side-by-side done by somebody who typically gets uniform results each and every time..


right.. well a little background info on me, i have been growing personally for 4 years and been exposed to it over 8.. i dont claim to know everything but i learned from some of the best i have ever met.. granted the only time i have documented my grows is since i moved to california, and built this crazy vert setup.. but i can assure you that when i used to grow with my ebb and flow tables, i got consistant results each and every time, and had a lot more space to work with. i have tested various methods and products, and i know what works and i know what doesnt.




born2killspam said:


> If you've got algae growth in your rooting medium that early that can be a problem.. A growing algae colony consumes far more nutrients than it would yield even if you had every beastie needed to break it down in there.. Before you have roots, the cuttings are at its mercy, and it isn't very merciful at all.. Its a competitor, not a friend in this game! If you can keep light off your rooting medium you won't regret it..


again, i dont have algae growth on my mediums, even though i wouldnt particularly mind it.. i have had it when i first started with no ill effects other than when it started to break down. the algae i speak of is algae products and derivitives..


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## born2killspam (Apr 1, 2009)

> i agree, but again, you are comparing apples, whilst i am comparing oranges


Not surprising since you were talking about ocean richness, and I was talking about green gunk..
I knew I was droning through some you had to know.. I did think you meant algae colonies though sorry.. Ppl use plain kelp based fertilizers with cuts all the time.. I did a few times, but never really noticed much difference than with hormone, or bareback.. Definately didn't hurt anything though.. I really wish it was possible to confirm if this is substantially more, but it does seem to sell..
I became unsure of your know-how when I mistook you to mean you like gungy RW for cuts.. Pretty much the whole debate gets nulled with that clarified.. Sorry for making you read through that, hopefully somebody learns something from it.. And in the future I'll already know that your knowledge matches your forum rep..


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## FLoJo (Apr 1, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Not surprising since you were talking about ocean richness, and I was talking about green gunk..
> I knew I was droning through some you had to know.. I did think you meant algae colonies though sorry.. Ppl use plain kelp based fertilizers with cuts all the time.. I did a few times, but never really noticed much difference than with hormone, or bareback.. Definately didn't hurt anything though.. I really wish it was possible to confirm if this is substantially more, but it does seem to sell..
> I became unsure of your know-how when I mistook you to mean you like gungy RW for cuts.. Pretty much the whole debate gets nulled with that clarified.. Sorry for making you read through that, hopefully somebody learns something from it.. And in the future I'll already know that your knowledge matches your forum rep..


its all good man i had a feeling wer were on different pages which is why i wanted to clarify what i was saying

that being said, im going to stop using the root stimulator right before flowering, and then ill pump up the co2 starting day 1 and use some h2o2..

i did find a used aquarium chiller for 300 bux i might have to pick up.. or just make a DIY for about 50.. havent decided lol

i have read an alarming amount of journals with co2 enrichment and it seems that some people dont even use co2 for the first 3 weeks or so  they say it increases stretching? they only use it at the end to supposedly pump up flower growth..

this confuses me because from what i understand, using it in early flowering (weeks 1-4) helps it grow bigger and more vigorous, with more budsites, helps pump up the flowers a bit in weeks 4-6 but then is far less effective from weeks 7-8 because the plants are ripenining (and in some cases can lower potency from increased co2 levles)

can anyone shed some light on why people do this?


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## born2killspam (Apr 1, 2009)

I wish CO2 guidelines to perfection were alot clearer too.. I always wondered how psychosomatic some observations are since CO2 can get expensive, and it would be alot easier to justify the cost when you're looking at pretty little pistils..
My CO2 experience is kind of ghetto old school.. I've always been a big fermenter/distiller, so I've always had them in the same room when I grew.. (I'm not talking pop bottles, some of my stills are 20Gallons+, so I do up to 60Gallons at a time, and fairly often/constantly..) Merely working on the principle that symbiotic relationships are good.. 
I'm leaning more towards your philosophy though.. How many times has it been said here that to get a good yield your plants need to be as good as they can be both above and below ground, before you flip to 12/12.. Logic dictates that that extends beyond the flipping date too.. Sure its pointless in vegging since you can trade growth rate for extra time.. But the coutdown to D-Day starts right on day one 12/12, so growth rate is vital from that point on until the point where senescence starts setting in..
CO2 does interact with ethylene activity though (ethylene does promote shoot growth), so those claims are backed by theory too.. I've come across experiments on other crop types that are quite interesting..
Still, we've come a long way in understanding how to control hormonal responses in plants.. I guess we would need a way to control auxins acceptably during 12/12 if that is a serious effect worthy of combatting..
Here are a couple links..
http://www.plant-hormones.info/ethylene.htm
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=425994&blobtype=pdf


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## FLoJo (Apr 1, 2009)

ya i mean most of what we experience with co2 is theory considering that we dont have lab grade settings in order to stabilize every part of the atmospheric conditions, and have credible side by side comparisons... everyone has different systems and surroundings so who knows what the truth is.. 

my theory is that ok, if a plant uses co2 to transpire, and co2 obviously promotes vigorous and enhanced growth, then it would seem that more co2 and better respiration would allow the plant to grow bigger faster, with more shoots and bud sites. I think that the theory of the stretching is that it grows so fast it seems to be stretching more, and the increased temps may have a bit to do with it, but again i think that it makes more bud sites, and in the end enhances yield.. 

it probably also enhances the size of buds, because when they are producing flowers, they again need high amounts of co2 to do so.. i think the only time that it would not be neccissary would be the last week or so when the trics are ripening and growth has pretty much stopped..

the way i think of it is like a runner.. in the mountains, with less oxygen, a runner cannot run as far, or as fast, as if he was running on the beach, where there is more available oxygen, and he can in turn make the most of his energy.. 

in the end if i paid all this money for all this equip i might as well bang it out and expirament with it later LOL im gonna run it for 7 of the 8 weeks, and the final week drop the temps and the co2 to help the trics ripen...

and on another note, i was rather surprised today.. i let my temp go up into the low 80s to see what the res temp would be like.. so i went and got a digital thermometer for the res, and with 83 degrees ambient air, my res stays about 72.. so i imagine with 10 more degrees ambient air, ill be around 77.. and with some aeration and a small DIY water chiller should be able to bring it down to about 70 which will be nice.. 

man i cant wait, im stoked.. starting week 2 of veg in the system and the kiddos are already sucking down 800ppms (nutes) with ease.. i plan on veggin about another week -10 days to get em a little over a foot tall, and then ill start my journal and have all the goodies set up.. stay tuned


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## Hedgehunter (Apr 2, 2009)

great thread guys, many thanks !


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## inval (Apr 2, 2009)

I'm just about to start my C02 conversion. I have always heard that optimal photosynthesis takes place at 76, so I've always tried to stay at 80 without C02. I am persuaded that increased C02 will allow for higher temperatures to metabolize the extra C02, but does this harm bud development. I've never used C02 during flowering. I've always believed that the higher temperatures during flowering causes buds to stretch and become less hard, the plants response to trying to lower internal bud temperatures and preserve the sex cells and the seeds. Could I operate effectively at the lower end, say 90 and still have good results? What happens to buds at 95 through the whole cycle? Does anyone have any problems with this?

I want to set up my C02 on a cycle that allows ventilation every 3 hours for about 15 minutes. I'll use air conditioning and a dehumidifier to reduce humidity and temperature when it's closed up. I'll be running at night. What does everyone think?

In my experience it is absolutely essential to keep res temperatures at 65-68. There is nothing worse than getting a pythium attack that destroys your roots. Healthy plant one day, wilting and dead the next. I guess I'll have to look at a chiller. Great, more expense.


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## FLoJo (Apr 2, 2009)

inval said:


> I'm just about to start my C02 conversion. I have always heard that optimal photosynthesis takes place at 76, so I've always tried to stay at 80 without C02. I am persuaded that increased C02 will allow for higher temperatures to metabolize the extra C02, but does this harm bud development. I've never used C02 during flowering. I've always believed that the higher temperatures during flowering causes buds to stretch and become less hard, the plants response to trying to lower internal bud temperatures and preserve the sex cells and the seeds. Could I operate effectively at the lower end, say 90 and still have good results? What happens to buds at 95 through the whole cycle? Does anyone have any problems with this?
> 
> I want to set up my C02 on a cycle that allows ventilation every 3 hours for about 15 minutes. I'll use air conditioning and a dehumidifier to reduce humidity and temperature when it's closed up. I'll be running at night. What does everyone think?
> 
> In my experience it is absolutely essential to keep res temperatures at 65-68. There is nothing worse than getting a pythium attack that destroys your roots. Healthy plant one day, wilting and dead the next. I guess I'll have to look at a chiller. Great, more expense.



well i am about to make my first run at co2, so i cant tell you from personal experience, but from what i have seen in other grows, and read online, is that in order for co2 to truly be effective, the temps must be at least 85 degrees, otherwise it is too cold for the stomata to open up and utilize the extra co2. 

now some research has shown that the the greatest gains in yields and growth is at 90-95 degrees and 1500ppm, but i dont know anyone personally who has grown at those temps, but there are those that i have seen online and with no ill effects. 

i think it does make the buds stretch out, but the increased co2 allows them to harden up the buds more so than if the temps were just high, which essentially makes the buds the same density that they would otherwise be, just larger.. i think this is where the increased yield comes from but i dont honestly know.

i do know that high heat and co2 levels can decrease potency, which is why some people cut off co2 after flowers have formed, and others when the trics are ripening. i guess the only way to know for sure is trial and error.


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## born2killspam (Apr 2, 2009)

76° would be the number ideal for our typically 300ppm ground-level air.. You have ~1200ppm above that to play before you hit toxicity risk..
Cannabis is a C3 plant.. Not as adapted for water conservation as a C4 plant.. As always, a balance must be maintained.. Most in depth stuff I read claim that the peak temperature for chemical reactions (or atleast the limiting ones) themselves involved with photosynthesisis are as high as 40°C(104°F), and the higher the temperature, the more effectively gas exchanges can occur.. But water loss also increases since the plants do not have separate pathways for the two, and water loss can impede those other reactions from transporting properly.. Thats why high humidity helps combat high temps.. 
There seems to be alot of deviation in numbers I've seen in studies regarding different types of C3 plants though (about 85-100°, which I think we knew it lies within already ), and PubMed etc don't have too much of a focus on cannabis cultivation specifically..
A tip if you're searching the net for scientific data yourself though is use the term cannabis.. Its much more often used than marijuana in the scientific realm..


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## inval (Apr 2, 2009)

I first came across the way temperature affects flowering when I started growing indoors about 25 years ago. There was no literature at all then so everything was trial and error. I was using C02 in the veg stage with phenomenal results. I didn't see how you could really do well without it at the time. It literally doubled the veg grow rate. Then I went into flowering without considering how temperature might influence bud development. Temperatures could have been well into the 100s. Those buds stretched worse than any I have ever seen. Literally one long stalk with seed cases about an inch apart. A friend who didn't have the money to invest in C02, left his windows open for ventilation and the room temperature went way down. I couldn't have had a more direct experimental comparison. Here were my buds stretched unbelievably and completely unmarketable and his with rock hard indica that my friend produced just because he didn't have the money for C02. I resolved not to try C02 again in the flowering stage and became an advocate for near constant ventilation. As I acquired more knowledge, I learned to moderate ventilation to an ideal range of humidity and temperature.

Now I'm back to trying C02 again in the flowering stage with air conditioning and dehumidification. But I'm very wary of high temperatures. I would hate to make all this investment and end up with an inferior product. I'm looking at the Hydroinnovations water cooled C02 generator that doesn't add heat to the room, the Sentinel controller, automated mechanical shutters for my exhaust fans, a good size dehumidifier, an air conditioner (just in case) and now a res chiller(something I hadn't thought of). Ouch! I hope the results are worth it and the higher temps don't harm my currently perfect buds. Does anyone have some real experience with this?? Has anyone else taken a look at the Hydroinnovations products, the water-cooled C02 burner, light shields and the water cooled 6 inch radiator that chill the lights (I vent my lights). The radiator looks like a great idea and would be great in a 12 inch configuration. Anything that lowers the electricity cost sounds good.


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## born2killspam (Apr 2, 2009)

I guess its safe to say your post count doesn't accurately reflect your experience..


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## inval (Apr 2, 2009)

I just joined rollitup. I've actually been growing indoors for about 30 years (wow, has it been that long?!). I don't want to get off topic, but in those days, the only literature was "Sensimilla Tips", Tom Alexander's magazine. He has since gone on to do the free publication "Growing Edge" in which, as you probably know, they have articles on orchids and tomatoes. Right...

Tom had a store in Eugene and it was the first place that you could buy 1000 watt lights for growing. At that time we thought you should use halides for veg and sodiums for flowering. The store was Full Moon Hydroponics. You had to construct your ballasts from scratch with all the components. He was so excited when I came up and bought 20 kits. I was his first big customer. Then the cops came after him, so he dropped the Hydro store and started Growing Edge.

Now it's really a science. You youngsters don't know how good you have it. : )


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## inval (Apr 2, 2009)

I just hope someone out there can discuss/address my concerns/thoughts on the C02 post above...


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## born2killspam (Apr 2, 2009)

> in those days, the only literature was "Sensimilla Tips"


Is that on the net anywhere you know of?? That would be a neat read..


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## born2killspam (Apr 2, 2009)

With current practises and technology even the dumber noobs are liking the results of enrichment.. CO2 enriched grows can handle more than normal heat no doubt.. Obviously theres no need to hit those temps anymore, there are pretty quiet fans on the market that can suck the hell out of your room in seconds these days, and the amount of automation/control you can incorporate these days is pretty sweet.. Its ALL solid-state now that we're in the future..


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## inval (Apr 2, 2009)

Sensimilla tips isn't on the web...It was on some really funky newsprint...


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## FLoJo (Apr 2, 2009)

well my temps this grow are going to be in the high 80s to low 90s.. i have seen non co2 grows do fairly well in those conditions so i dont think it would be an issue with proper co2 maintenance.. i think a lot of it may be strain related and how well they handle the temps but who really knows lol

and man the internet really is a beautiful thing.. ive learned a lot of stuff from growers i know but i have learned a lot more comparing and contrasting other peoples grows on the net.. i even get to teach some of the old skoolers a thing or two hehe feels nice.. 

and the technology that has come with new age growing truly is remarkable


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## inval (Apr 5, 2009)

What's the consensus? Continue to use C02 right on through flowering or not?


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## LoudBlunts (Apr 5, 2009)

say what?

co2 in a veg would be a waste, imho!!!


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## FLoJo (Apr 5, 2009)

i think he meant to use it from beginning to end of flowering or just use it the first six weeks of flowering..

and why do you think its a waste? i have seen side by side grows of people using co2 in veg and there is a noticeable difference


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## LoudBlunts (Apr 5, 2009)

FLoJo said:


> i think he meant to use it from beginning to end of flowering or just use it the first six weeks of flowering..
> 
> and why do you think its a waste? i have seen side by side grows of people using co2 in veg and there is a noticeable difference


i dont know about you, but i use my co2 for bigger fat ass buds, reduced finishing time and also a bigger window when it comes to enviro temps.

you seeing side by side grows using co2 noticing difference is very relative.

very wasteful way to use up that co2...already have to refill enough times.... that would be a bottle a week.

not to mention why would i use co2 in veg when i can just hydro/aero and veg them under 1k watter?

fast growth is relative. many a ways to get them growing fast


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## FLoJo (Apr 5, 2009)

LoudBlunts said:


> i dont know about you, but i use my co2 for bigger fat ass buds, reduced finishing time and also a bigger window when it comes to enviro temps.
> 
> you seeing side by side grows using co2 noticing difference is very relative.
> 
> ...


true, but all things being equal, i think using it in veg would be a good idea...

again, all things being equal lets say by using co2, you can cut a week off of your veg time, over the course of 6 grows, you can almost squeeze in an extra grow a year in a perpetual cycle.

so those extra 6 bottles of co2 (one tank per week) which cost you roughly 150 bucks, would allow you to have almost a complete extra grow per year.. seems like a good cost trade off to me


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## born2killspam (Apr 5, 2009)

I was never waiting for vegging to finish so I could flip to flowering, I was always waiting for flowering to finish so I could get new eager plants in there..
Plus, at this point in time the claim of a week saved is assumption only..


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## FLoJo (Apr 5, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> I was never waiting for vegging to finish so I could flip to flowering, I was always waiting for flowering to finish so I could get new eager plants in there..
> Plus, at this point in time the claim of a week saved is assumption only..


good point i guess it just depends on your application


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## FLoJo (Apr 7, 2009)

UPDATE: 

so i got my tanks filled, hooked up my cppm-1, set the ppms to 1550, and sealed up my room.

today was the first day of my little expirament

right now i am in veg, and my temps are between 90 and 96 degrees 
the humidity is about 55 percent

res temp stays about 79

what i am doing is flipping on an intake vent for 15 mins every hour which brings the temps down from 96 to 91,and the ppms of the co2 to 1100 and then over the next 45 minutes it hovers back up. takes about 5 minutes to go back up to 1550 ppm

it just seems like it is fucking hot in there! holy shit LOL.. and i know i will have to throw in a dehumidifier once i start flowering, so that will add more heat.. i also know i will have to cool off my res.. i think i am going to do ice bottles cuz i wont be able to handle the extra heat from a chiller..

i know some of you have said that you grew up to 95 degrees but fuck it feels hot LOL anyone got any ideas?


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## born2killspam (Apr 7, 2009)

I'd up the humidity until you need to worry about mold..


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## FLoJo (Apr 7, 2009)

i cant up the humidity too much unless i got a humidifier, it just doesnt seem to climb any higher..

dont those temps seem a little too high? im wondering if i should retrofit a small window ac unit at the entrance to my room and try to bring it down to 85-90

this would bring the water temps down to 75, and bring the ambient temps down.. i know i would lose some co2 through the ac, but i figure it would be better than the venting method i have now


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## born2killspam (Apr 7, 2009)

Yea, thats why I suggested the RH.. Helps combat temps, and if they're taking in more CO2, they're going to want more water via chloroplasts.. A water bucket with a towel hanging in it getting blasted by a fan should help..


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## LoudBlunts (Apr 7, 2009)

yes a/c is very good. depending on controller you can run it via controller

in ideal situations...you would always mount/install the chiller outside of the grow or at least if you have a fan blowing on it...it should be straight. placing it near an exhaust fan with a oscillating fan would do the trick in my book.


oh yea btw flojo...i didnt tell you. i think imma get it. i bit the bait!!! the hydro-innovations' icebox is looking mighty promising/cool gadget. you know i love those cool gadgets.

the icebox not only supposedly removes all the heat from the light (1000watter per) but it acts as an a/c to cool the grow area too!!!! only drawback is you need a semi big chiller


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## FLoJo (Apr 7, 2009)

LoudBlunts said:


> yes a/c is very good. depending on controller you can run it via controller
> 
> in ideal situations...you would always mount/install the chiller outside of the grow or at least if you have a fan blowing on it...it should be straight. placing it near an exhaust fan with a oscillating fan would do the trick in my book.
> 
> ...



so you agree those temps will be too high??

man i actually was looking at one of those the other day, looks real nifty if it works out.. when are you gonna have it set up? i want a review!!  LOL


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## LoudBlunts (Apr 7, 2009)

i blv you can get away with those temps...

i told you the real answer will be you playing with it/experimenting


and im getting it for my sog cab stuffing a 1k in a 2x4 space : - x

ill get you a review asap...it will probably be a few months. i want to wait and find a good deal on a 1/2 hp chiller


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## FLoJo (Apr 7, 2009)

man i almost bought a 1/2 hp drop in chiller for 300 bux woulda been perfect for ya haha

i think im gonna get a portable ac and retrofit it at the doorway.. keep the temps around 88-90


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## LoudBlunts (Apr 7, 2009)

wow 1/2hp? thas fucking cheap

all the ones i seen where like 600-1,200 bucks!!

oh yea, about portable a/c i think you should shop around for real and look at opinions and reviews....last time i check portable a/c sucked

either way, good luck, and keep me updated and ill keep you updated


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## FLoJo (Apr 7, 2009)

ya it was real cheap but i woulda had to drive about 5 hours to get it, and he had no pics so i said fuck it LOL but it was cheap.

but i have a portable at a friends house which is why i was planning on using it.. i know they suck but ehh whatever its just a temporary fix till i can move to a house with some ac lol


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## LoudBlunts (Apr 7, 2009)

oh yea btw, i saw a sentinel chhc-1 for like 400 bucks


gives me an excuse to buy up some!


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## inval (Apr 9, 2009)

I just got my whole setup. I got the CHHC-1 and the water-cooled C02 generator by Hydroinnovations. I'm going to set it up today...


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## inval (Apr 9, 2009)

BTW, I think the best way to go on ac is to use a big window mount. I'm looking at the 24000 btu model at Home Depot for $500. I've never had much luck with the portables, even when I went to two of them.


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## aes110 (Apr 10, 2009)

My exhaust fans shut down 1 min before co2 is injected for 3 min. the temp runs in mid 90s 
after 30 min. the exhaust fans turn back on. I do this 6 times in a 12 hour cycle. the plants thrive off this.


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## born2killspam (Apr 10, 2009)

Got any finalized yield numbers or what not?? Especially in comparison to a non-CO2 grow in the same space...


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## FLoJo (Apr 10, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Got any finalized yield numbers or what not?? Especially in comparison to a non-CO2 grow in the same space...


i will in about 70 days haha


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## born2killspam (Apr 10, 2009)

Was asking aes110.. I know this is your first go with this stuff..


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## easygrinder (Apr 10, 2009)

i grew in 95 heat with 1500 ppm,s don't take it any higher as 1500 is apparently optimal


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## FLoJo (Apr 10, 2009)

easygrinder said:


> i grew in 95 heat with 1500 ppm,s don't take it any higher as 1500 is apparently optimal


i have seen people take it up much higher.. the urban grower that runs around canada n the states shows peeps who routinely run 1600-1800 ppm


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## born2killspam (Apr 10, 2009)

PPM is bound to be somewhat relative.. There is alot of room for error since its denser than typical air ontop of technical details regarding measurement.. 1800ppm on one meter in one room might read 1400ppm on another meter, or in another room with different air-flow etc.. A while back CO2 users were actually using 2000ppm as an optimal target.. Plants can still thrive even if its teetering the toxic level.. Should be noted though that actual toxicity levels will depend on the amount of light they get, and actually on O2 levels as well.. To a point anyways, there are limits..
I have a 32pg 1.9MB pdf that explains the limits on photosynthesis really well.. Anybody who wants it can pm me with an email adress that can accept that attachment..


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## LoudBlunts (Apr 10, 2009)

i'd be highly interested


and i would think you can just upload/attach the file to here, born2kill


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## LoudBlunts (Apr 10, 2009)

and btw flo...born2kill is right on with the ppm's argument


i have an article about it....even though its in relation to meters and such and not directly co2 meter...but its the same principle!

http://www.getbluelab.com/Support/Understanding+what+ppm+scale+to+use.html


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## FLoJo (Apr 10, 2009)

the only reason i am running it higher is because of how stupid these meters are LOL

like when you turn it on and calibrate it, then unplug it and take it to your grow room, it resets, so theres really no way to calibrate it accurately indoors unless you have access to an open window..

and my meter runs about 100-150ppms above ambient (so when it should read 300-400 it reads 450-500

so i compensate by having the ppms at 1650-700

i guess i should have clarified earlier hehe


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## LoudBlunts (Apr 10, 2009)

FLoJo said:


> the only reason i am running it higher is because of how stupid these meters are LOL
> 
> like when you turn it on and calibrate it, then unplug it and take it to your grow room, it resets, so theres really no way to calibrate it accurately indoors unless you have access to an open window..
> 
> ...



i dont think you are right about that...

some meters have automatic temperature compensation....


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## FLoJo (Apr 10, 2009)

well i have the sentinel cppm1 and it says you should calibrate it before use, and that ambient air is 350-450 ppms.

i have had it outside on my balcony at night, about 50 degrees, as well as in my grow room at about 85 degrees, and both times the reader said around 450 ppms, but when i calibrated it outside, then brought it inside, it read about 383 ppms...

then when i unplugged it and took it into my grow room, it shot back up to 470 ppms. and i know that cant be true cuz my plants are suckin up the gas in that mofo LOL


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## LoudBlunts (Apr 10, 2009)

damn bro...my fault


thas my non reading ass....

i thought you was talking about water meters

blah, i confused my own self


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## FLoJo (Apr 10, 2009)

haha naw man my co2 meter


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## murtymaker (Apr 10, 2009)

Need to read... all of this... later, subscribed.


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## born2killspam (Apr 11, 2009)

What are your surroundings like? Do you live in highlands, lowlands, near roads/industry? Ambient CO2 levels can vary themselves.. Might be the actual concentration and not the meter that is off.. If thats the case then your compensation would be incorrect for your target.. Harmless, and probably the right thing to do though since IIRC you have an absurd amount of light..
I'll get that pdf sent.. If you or anybody has a means of hosting it, please do.. The forums won't accept pdf attachments that size though.. Been there, tried that..


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## FLoJo (Apr 11, 2009)

i live about a quarter mile off of the beach, away from town, away from any type of industrial complex. i get a rough sea breeze all day every day, and ambient co2 levels at sea level are supposed to be 350 ppm roughly.. and id say im at sea level haha

but i do have 2400w enclosed in a 4x8 footprint 8 feet high, which is a nice amount of light so i dont think the extra co2 is gonna hurt my kiddos hehe


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## aes110 (Apr 11, 2009)

using co2 has increased yield by about 75% compared to a non co2 enriched room. Its amazing how fast they grow and 
the amount they yield with co2


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## gardenman (Apr 12, 2009)

Not sure if this post is useless but my temps right now are 90-100 without co2. I've moved my non air cooled 400 watt hps 8 inches from the tops of plants and they are growing like crazy for an indica. I think you could easily grow at 100.f I do have fresh air coming in though.

Past 1600ppm is poisouns for plants. I'm sure they'll still grow though. Over 4000 ppm co2 is poison to humans.


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## LoudBlunts (Apr 12, 2009)

errrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## FLoJo (Apr 13, 2009)

ya man, well first of all plant metabolism significantly slows down past 85 degrees, and pretty much stops around the low 90s without co2 supplementation, as has been discussed here.

optimal temps with co2 are probably between 85-93 degrees with 1500ppm, not much higher than that. growing at those temps without it is gonna get ya nowhere fast.


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## born2killspam (Apr 13, 2009)

Same claim could be said about humans, but I know I'm more productive well below 100°F..


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## Hedgehunter (Apr 14, 2009)

has anyone ever messured the c02 from the yeast/sugar method ? does it work ?


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## born2killspam (Apr 14, 2009)

You can calculate the total evolved over a total period, but it won't be a steady rate.. By anaerobic fermentation you will produce roughly 1/2 the initial sugar mass to CO2.. By aerobic reproductive yeast respiration you can yield roughly 1.5x the initial sugar mass in CO2..
Stability of the rate this happens will vary depending on your recipe, and skill as a brewer, but there is no way to keep an actual steady rate without a few batches stagger started each day on a continuous cycle unless you were to contain it and release a given amount on schedule.. Which would be very impressive..


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## Mr.Niceguy03 (Apr 16, 2009)

I too recently added a bottle to my incubator.. Looking to pic up a bad ass sentinel but I'm working with digital timers in the mean time; and Co2 calculator. I was wondering about night cycle and running Co2 at night, are there any special adjustments for the night cycle. I'm also having trouble keeping my Temp above 80. It's at a steady 76 right now..my grow cube is 3.5'x2'x1.5'... Also I added a humidifier but I can get it above 40%. It's steady around 28-30%.. It's my first grow so sum in put would be appreciated... I'm running 4 LGM5's panels fullspectrum LEDs with two 24w CFLS for side light... Procyon shouldcbe arriving soon...I didn't think the LGM's would hang but my too girls look healthy in there 3rd week of veg.. Ibwill try to add some pics.


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## born2killspam (Apr 16, 2009)

Don't use it at night period.. And I hate to say it, but CO2 is a big-boy game.. Without HID its pointless! LEDs are great if you want to know when your drill is done charging, or you want a flashlight in your hat, but not for much more than that..


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## FLoJo (Apr 16, 2009)

ya man id throw some serious light in there... will def crank up the heat, but dont invest in co2 with leds.. and dont run it at night


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## Mr.Niceguy03 (Apr 17, 2009)

Thx fellas appeciate the input... Might have too stop kidding myself and go to the hydroshop to pick up some HID's.


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## born2killspam (Apr 17, 2009)

Check out electrical/lighting outfitters in the phone-book.. WAAAY cheaper..


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## pinner420 (Apr 21, 2009)

Inval I got the liquid cooled hydrogen burner too and love it. I went vert two days ago and now the room is at 93 degrees and need to shut off exaust from temp controller to a timed interval as I chatted with flo jo about. I have a fifty gallon res and it was fuckn boiling last night so I put my ppm3 on a 1on 4 off nft to slow down the consumption of gas and give my burner a rest. With that said flow on max and gas on mid i only achieved 880 ppm with that setup. Tonight I plan on putting the exaust and fresh air on for fifteen minutes every hour. Need to get the chiller for the tank or do run to waste. How much was that valve thing for doing run to waste on the hydrogen?? Anyway penny for all your thoughts here. I'll get some pics posted one of these days. Gotta get out the ten foot latter though cause these bitches are big. Doing a tree grow like the great heath robinson except with 2 kw hps and 1 kw mh rolling the skunk strain. I'm running autopots here and dont have the run to waste problem eb and flow growers have should I still worry about keep the tank at sixty 8????


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## pinner420 (Apr 21, 2009)

I was reading on HARVEST MASTER http://harvest-master.com/casestudies.html ABOUT short days and cycles with co2. Has anyone else attempted this?


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## pinner420 (Apr 21, 2009)

*18 hr Short Day Cycles: Fast Flowering * Through meeting store owners who are selling our Harvest Master controllers into the field, hearing directly from them and end users what benefits they are achieving, we monitor what we can do next, or what we can do to help.​ Best story of all is from a guy thinking just slightly outside the square.​ *He is getting crop rotations in 7.5 weeks *(down from 16weeks) ! (see more below!)​ In the following case, nothing needed changing (except perhaps the mindset of the growers in the audience.
Getting an efficient output for the input used is what it is all about.
"Hmmm, says Harvest Master!". I have to be at least a little dubious. But,....
Try his thoughts for size. I have to think that there is something in what he says.​ *His assertion:* ALL species of plant, insect or animal on earth have their "Day period" during which, their efficiency is greater for SOME of that time. 
While they can use up to 18hrs of light, maybe for 12 of those, they are at 100%, then drift off to only 60%-70%, then to 20%-30%".​ Consider,......​ ....most days I wake up and am at 90% in 5 minutes, at 100% in 10 minutes.​ After 10/12 hrs, I'm flagging badly and while I am happy to stay up another 6-8 hrs, am just "laidback".
My young boy on the other hand, is at 90% within 10 seconds of waking and 100% in 30 seconds. He hits the wall "like a bird flying into plate glass" after 14 hrs, then sleeps like a brick for 10!!
Others however, take an hour to get to 60%, another hour to get to 90%!
Most animals use the time that they are given, *to produce the best effect* *they can achieve with that time*.​ Plants don&#8217;t think, they react to a genetic 'drive to survive'. So, I conclude that there is a case to examine where a short day cycle could trip a plant's genetic response into a "survive or die" accelerated mode to flowering and fruiting.​ "He wanted to capture the hours that would give him *90% or better*, of the plant's "production" but maybe saving 25-30% of the daylight period" (power being a special consideration).​ 

He set his vegetative cycle at 14hrs day and 4hrs night for an 18hr day
Ran it for 7 days (about 10 "plant days") at 2000ppm CO2
That period gave him sufficient leaf development to proceed with the flowering phase.
The "Fast Flower" 6hr days and 12hr nights regime lasted 45 days.
His crop. "It is better than I EVER had in 16 weeks." Yields?, "I&#8217;d say 135-140% of my previous best crops.
"It is so reliable I can set the crop harvest date into my wall planner on day one!" 7weeks and 3 days Harvest. Impressive result. 6 great crops a year, low management of them, *every one a winner!*
 Well, being at least a bit dubious, I thought around the edges and finally concluded that a power usage analysis for the lights ON time per day, per month would be a gauge to the accuracy of the story and maybe prove or disprove it.​ My analysis​ The claims Leaf phase (light hrs) Flowering phase Total ​ 1. Non CO2 4wks (28days @18hrs) ,12wks (84days @12 hrs) =16wks (1512hrs)​ OK but 33% crop failures. 378 lights ON hrs/mth.​ 2. "Short Cycle" 7day ([email protected]), 45day (60days @6 hrs) =7.4wks (500hrs)​ Unbelievable result!​ Easy harvest and growth. 250 lights ON hrs/mth.​ Great result, especially that the grow room/crop management is also massively reduced.​ 3. Std CO2 cycle: 2wks (14days @18hrs), 10wks (70days @12 hrs) =12wks (1092hrs)​ Fantastic crop. 364 lights ON hrs/mth.​ Easy harvest.​ Supporting evidence.​ Indicated power usage for the short phase growing cycle reduces to about 250hrs/mth, from 378hrs/mth, *a drop of 33%!.*​ The grower was a little concerned that in the early period of growing, power accounts were low. He thought there was underestimating of the power meter and was concerned to get a huge "top up" account. The facts were that his power usage dropped to 66%, a saving of 34% (from $500/mth to around $328/mth).
This had a consequential (side) effect of reducing residual heat in the room, nutrient and water tanks, with profound effects reducing mould and fungus problems.
These figures just blow me away. More than we ever envisaged, we have a customer succeeding with crops in a way he could never achieve before.
His total "light ON" period of 500hrs to get a harvest is amazing.
That is only 2/3rds of the time and 50% of power that a regular CO2 equipped growing operation is using.
In just 1/2 of the time at 1/3rd of the power, he has a better harvest than ever achieved with a 16week method.​ We should let this guy loose on the government budget!​ For the flower seeds he is cropping, he has hit a crop rotation and growing efficiency that would make most people's eyes water.
​


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## pinner420 (Apr 21, 2009)

Harvest Master will also work great in these hot areas, controlling Temp *and* Humidity, *and* CO2. Remember, *High Humidity is your friend providing;* Harvest Master balances that Humidity with High Temperature and High CO2. Humidity HAS to be up around 70-75%RH at 30-32C/88-90F). With temp and humidity up there, and CO2 at 1800ppm, you could have growth at *100% extra* over 74F conditions, and the plants will love you for it! Get humidifiers AND dehumidifiers in your room. They are cheap ways to get high growth and maximum yields!


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## born2killspam (Apr 21, 2009)

Why is the math always so fishy?? How does a 25% reduction in day period equate to more than a 50% reduction in total period?? And I'm not even addressing the yield claims..
I am aware that plants can't necessarily use 12hrs+ of intense light as effectively as they could at their peak point during the day, but I'm still gonna call shenanigans..


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## pinner420 (Apr 21, 2009)

I'm not gonna try it till I have another room to fall back on. ONe room one paycheck not gonna do it. Anyway thought it fit the subject a little.


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## born2killspam (Apr 21, 2009)

Read up on phytochrome (pr/pfr) if you want to play with day lengths..


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## FLoJo (Apr 21, 2009)

i dont see how hundreds of thousands of years of photosynthesis light programming can be flipped turned upside down and blown out of the water by going 6hr on 6hr of... i guess ill have to make a grow cab and test it out sometime


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## pinner420 (Apr 25, 2009)

A ya temps are better measured when your digital sensor is shaded. Like the directions say to do. Save yourself some grey hair do it. Mylar and one piece of duct tape and she's humm'n 330000 lumens 9 inches from the colas at 1500 ppm with 22 days left colas getting bulky. We have it really good here as we on pay a 1 dollar per gallon of propane.


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## StinkBud (Apr 29, 2009)

FLoJo said:


> I have read that research suggests that the most gains are seen with temps of 90-95 degrees and 1500ppms... some others say 85 degrees is optimal temps, while others still say that 75-78 is ideal...
> 
> who grows with co2 sealed rooms and what are your experiences with temperature?


I run 85 degrees with my CO2 at 1500PPM. Too hot and the plants will run. Too cold and the growth rate will slow.

85 is just right...


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## FLoJo (Apr 29, 2009)

ya i have been letting my a/c settle at 85-88 and the plants seem to be thriving.. explosive growth, but without increased internode spacing


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## inval (Apr 29, 2009)

FLoJo said:


> ya i have been letting my a/c settle at 85-88 and the plants seem to be thriving.. explosive growth, but without increased internode spacing


 It's not the internode spacing but how tight and hard the final product is....I can't wait to hear how it works out.


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## livesoul (Jul 21, 2009)

Great thread fellas. So to follow up, how did you grows come out with your temps?!? I've been concerned with my temps as they are running around 90-95 in the day now. I have not been running CO2 because I've been keeping my fans on constantly hoping to lower the temperature. But it seems like the temp is alright I suppose? Except for stinkbud just saying 85 was the spot it sounded like most you others had it around where i'm at while running CO2 and you've all done well?


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## pinner420 (Jul 22, 2009)

livesoul said:


> Great thread fellas. So to follow up, how did you grows come out with your temps?!? I've been concerned with my temps as they are running around 90-95 in the day now. I have not been running CO2 because I've been keeping my fans on constantly hoping to lower the temperature. But it seems like the temp is alright I suppose? Except for stinkbud just saying 85 was the spot it sounded like most you others had it around where i'm at while running CO2 and you've all done well?


 Well I went the distance and got a 100000 btu chiller and I'm rolling with 78 nuts on with perfect results. If your rolling above 90 get some more cooling power.


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## inval (Jul 22, 2009)

Now that I've had some experience with C02, I'm starting to wonder about some of the information thrown around in this thread. Can anyone direct me to some *real* evidence, scientific or otherwise, that actually backs up the proposition that the higher temperature range (85-90) is actually more beneficial that say the low 80s? Is this just urban myth? Completely anecdotal?? I'm currently running in the low 80s with incredible results using the CHHC-1 and the Hydroinnovations C02 generator. I use ac and light ventilation to keep the temps down. I've mounted the generator outside the room to further reduce heat.

Some people are suggesting higher humidity levels are beneficial as well as higher temps with C02. In my experience when humidity levels climb above 80, it starts to interfere with the plants respiration. If the air is saturated with water vapor, then plants can't as effectively transpire. It becomes difficult to for atmospheric byproducts to move through the stomata if the air is over saturated with water. Plant exhaust then becomes stifled and growth slows...any thoughts? I'm constantly fighting to bring humidity down in my sealed up room. Currently, I'm working on a 3 hour cycle with 15 minutes of fresh air exhaust every 3 hours and ac and a dehumidifier working constantly. The plants look fantastic!

Definitely use the C02 during veg! It really accelerates growth rate and can significantly shortens veg time.


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## noone88 (Jul 22, 2009)

inval said:


> Now that I've had some experience with C02, I'm starting to wonder about some of the information thrown around in this thread. Can anyone direct me to some *real* evidence, scientific or otherwise, that actually backs up the proposition that the higher temperature range (85-90) is actually more beneficial that say the low 80s? Is this just urban myth? Completely anecdotal?? I'm currently running in the low 80s with incredible results using the CHHC-1 and the Hydroinnovations C02 generator. I use ac and light ventilation to keep the temps down. I've mounted the generator outside the room to further reduce heat.
> 
> Some people are suggesting higher humidity levels are beneficial as well as higher temps with C02. In my experience when humidity levels climb above 80, it starts to interfere with the plants respiration. If the air is saturated with water vapor, then plants can't as effectively transpire. It becomes difficult to for atmospheric byproducts to move through the stomata if the air is over saturated with water. Plant exhaust then becomes stifled and growth slows...any thoughts? I'm constantly fighting to bring humidity down in my sealed up room. Currently, I'm working on a 3 hour cycle with 15 minutes of fresh air exhaust every 3 hours and ac and a dehumidifier working constantly. The plants look fantastic!
> 
> Definitely use the C02 during veg! It really accelerates growth rate and can significantly shortens veg time.


Temps with CO2 is mainly determined by genetics.

Your best bet is to get a laser thermometer. Odds are, if your room is 86-88, the temps of you canopy under the light will be 3 to 5 degrees higher.

Some strains can handle this, others cannot.


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## inval (Jul 25, 2009)

To determine temperature I put a thermometer probe right under a light on the plant's leaves...I check the room's ambient air temperature displayed on my CHHC-1.

I have trouble imagining how a heavy budded plant can do well in the 90-95 degree range.


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## luielugatz (Jul 25, 2009)

i ust ran into a temp problem and i have been dealing with it for 3 days so far.....i have an aeroflo and that pump cooks the water sometimes.....my temp was running steady at 85 all day then dropping to 79 at night ......i did a lil research and started lowering my rez daily and about 3 days later my girls r comming back to life.....u can get alot of bacteria with the heat and man that shit sucks to clean....i say keep it low mine is running about 71-72 degrees right now.....

heat slows you down on a hot day,imagine what it must do to the plants....


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## stylios2008 (Apr 17, 2010)

LoudBlunts said:


> that is phony baloney, imo
> 
> 
> show me a plant thas grown in 70F-82F res temp conditions...
> ...


I have DWC 5 gal buckets and are all at about 74F..yield is at about 4 oz per plant...with no co2 enrichment


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## CLOSETGROWTH (Apr 17, 2010)

stylios2008 said:


> I have DWC 5 gal buckets and are all at about 74F..yield is at about 4 oz per plant...with no co2 enrichment


I also run dwc Buckets with a 1k light and c02.

My res temps max out around 75-77.

I got over 2 lbs last grow.

Hardest, most dense bud I ever grew 

Works for me.


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