# Hydro Nutrients Reviews



## mpdegn (Apr 16, 2010)

Not sure if anyone has started something like this before, but I'm just curious as to what hydroponic nutrients the majority of you guys uses and where you have ordered/bought them. I'm sure this thread is going to help people make up their minds when it comes to buying nutrients.

I'm just looking for some brief posts in a simple format....

*Nutrients:*
*Price:*
*Website (if ordered online):*
*Comment: *please include how long they last


I'm gonna go ahead and start.
-----------------------------------------------

*Nutrients*: Holland Secret Grow-Micro-Bloom

*Price*: $13/bottle. I bought the whole set (3 bottles) so I payed around $40.

*Website*: None, I bought them at the hydro store

*Comment*: I like them, but as soon as you start using the Bloom nutrient you will notice a sudden drop in PH, even though the makers of Holland Secret claim that PH adjustment becomes obsolete with their product. The whole 1qt/bottle set is going to last from veg to harvest unless you grow unusually big plants.


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## GringoLoco (Apr 16, 2010)

*Nutrients:* Cutting Edge Solutions (http://www.cuttingedgesolutions.org)
*Price:* ~$110 Quart lineup (Micro, Grow, Bloom - Uncle John's, Plant Amp, Mag Amped - the additives far outlast the base nutrients)
*Website*: Worm's Way
*Comment*: Having run numerous lineups including General Hydroponics, Botanicare, Flairform, Dutch Masters, House and Garden, etc. I found that not only did plants grown with CES outperform the other lineups, it is actually the most economically priced one. I also run their feed schedule at half strength which makes it last even longer. 

Why I like this lineup?

pH stability (intial swings which naturally level out)
Little to no salt build-up
Plants show little to no burn or deficiency
Last but not least, amazing results!


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## Bud Greenley (Apr 16, 2010)

CANNA aqua series! period!


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## mpdegn (Apr 16, 2010)

@Bud Greenley could you at least tell us what set you got and how much you paid? Stick to format dude, I don't get anything out of your response.


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## bigwheel (Apr 16, 2010)

*Nutrients: Botanicare CNS 17
Price: 27 bucks per gallon*
*Website (if ordered online): Plug it into Google and get a bunch of hits. Can be bought at any hydro store. *
*Comment: 3 gallons needed. Grow, bloom and ripe. Lasts a good while. Makes it grow like a mofo in all stages then starves the offending weed to death toward the end. Plain water flush once a week since it's not organic. Not sure it needs flushing at all but no doubt it helps most folks feel better on the inside to flush it. *


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## blazingtimes (Apr 21, 2010)

Nutrients: Advanced Nutrients Micro-Grow-Bloom Base Fertilizer Package Price: $37.66 - 1 Liter set Website (if ordered online): http://www.advancednutrientsonline.com/proddetail.php?prod=m-g-b&cat=5 Comment: These will work for light feedings, though I tend to buy more than the one liter set. This is a good starter pack for the beginners. I think it works well to establish a strong nutritional base without having to add additives unless you really want to ramp up the grow. Plants grow quickly and easily, in my experience. Cool idea for a thread.


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## mpdegn (May 6, 2010)

Ok thank you guys, +rep. Anyone else who would like to share?


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## fatman7574 (May 6, 2010)

I formulate and mix my own for about $2 to $3 a gallon for a 100x concentrate. Cost about $12 a gallon max buying the salts in small quantities. There are only a bit more than 2 pounds of fertilzer in the typical 1 gallon bottle of retail mj nutrients. Their cost to manafacture? Less than $1 per gallon for the typical 2 or 3 part formulas. Kinda makes one thing WTF? For the typical person running a small RO filter, once you add in the sewage fees for your water and the fact that it takes 4 to 5 gallons of water to make one gallon of RO water then it should cost more for your nutrient water bill then for the nutrients. That is definitely not the case when you buy retail mj specific fertilizers.

Read this thread: https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/268790-lucas-formula-recipe-scratch-really.html


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## Touchet (May 6, 2010)

I use Dutch Master Gold Line Nutrients and Gold Line Liquid Light and Saturator for foliar feeding

http://www.dutchmaster.com.au/?language=english&page=product&product=GOLD_RANGE_NUTRIENT

product: grow A&B, cost $14/bottle, add .27 grow, cost $24/bottle
product: flower A&B, cost $14/bottle, add .27 flower, cost $24/bottle
product: Liquid Light, cost $46/bottle
product: Saturator, cost $34/bottle

bottle = 1 Litre

Total cost= $184.00 + tax

Purchased: locally

Comments: I flush once a week to keep roots healthy and this is done during the tank change/clean. Lasts a long time. Has an online interactive nutrient calculator for all feeding products, easy to use for beginners. Awesome results are located in the journal folks.


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## fatman7574 (May 6, 2010)

Touchet said:


> I use Dutch Master Gold Line Nutrients and Gold Line Liquid Light and Saturator for foliar feeding
> 
> http://www.dutchmaster.com.au/?language=english&page=product&product=GOLD_RANGE_NUTRIENT
> 
> ...


Insane prices.

For an example:
*Dutch Masters Liquid Light*
ppm
Nitrogen 15
Phosphorus 110
Potassium 269
Magnesium 29
Calcium 5
Sulfur 38
Iron .30
Zinc .30


*Ounces *

Potassium Nitrate 4.8
Calcium Chloride .2
Iron Chelate .04
MonoPotassium Phosphate 6.9
Magnesium Sulfate 3.9
Zinc Sulfate .017

Volume of Stock Solutions 1
Dilution Rate 100

Total Fertilizer Salt Weight 16.01 ounces

Nice, you pay $46 for a liter of a product that costs them less than a 27 cents for the fertilizer salts it contains (IE all 4.285 ounces of it). High retail cost for the salt ingrediants about $5 for a full gallon. That means including shipping the cost would be about $4 per liter for you to produce.

Yepper, nothing like the mj specific nutrient manafacturers rapeing growers. Sad.


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## squarepush3r (May 7, 2010)

amen to fatman


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## Touchet (May 7, 2010)

While I agree with the cost being high, I would use nothing less.
And here's a few things that help justify the cost of my nutes in my own head.
"*6 Years Of Technological Advancements In 1 Product!"
*I don't have 6 years to waste.

"Dutch Master only uses the best available British & US Pharmaceutical & Laboratory Reagent grade chemicals, phyto-nutrients & aminos when making Gold Range NUTRIENT!"
_ I have no access to such things.

" Every batch is independently lab tested for consistency prior to bottling so we can guarantee that the next bottle of Gold Range NUTRIENT you buy is identical to the last!"
- again, I have not the time nor patience for such testing.

"By providing a unique ionic charge to the elements contained within Gold Range NUTRIENT, we unlock natures awesome genetic power!"
- how again would you propose I add the correct ionic charge to my mix of home made nutes??

The product you jumped on was for foliar feeding so I would guess the PPM would be much less than that of the regular nutrients. Then again, I'm no scientist like fatman. Also in regards to that product being so cheap and easy to produce for you, why aren't you using it? I use Liquid Light and Saturator for foliar feeding and my plants are freaks! How about this, before you judge a product, learn something about it first. You seemed to have slipped over things like "ionic charged nutrients", "foliar feeding" as well as the most obvious fact, my journal. There are plenty of pics of my plants using this entire feeding program. They are all magnificent. As a matter of fact I posted a challenge in my thread, anything organic based for foliar feeding against my Liquid Light. You name it and I'll buy it. 

I went to 6 sites for growers before resting my flowers here. Of ALL 6 sites NO ONE has shown me plants that look like mine. Until they do I will keep using this high priced stuff imported from Holland and reaping the rewards. 

Check the journal if you think I'm kidding one slightest bit 

I pay for science, convenience, and NO GUESS WORK! Perfect for a new indoor grower, not "sad" by any means.


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## GringoLoco (May 7, 2010)

Won't argue that the nutes might work for you, but most canna specific nutrients companies highly over price their products due to the "market" they sell to; you know they are saying to themselves, "these guys will pay anything".
I've had just as "amazing" results with piss and miracle grow as I had when I ran DM. Nutes are only one of many factors that will determine the end result, with genetics being one of the most important ones IMHO.


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## fatman7574 (May 7, 2010)

Touchet said:


> While I agree with the cost being high, I would use nothing less.
> And here's a few things that help justify the cost of my nutes in my own head.
> "*6 Years Of Technological Advancements In 1 Product!"*
> I don't have 6 years to waste.
> ...


Your funny Dude. Your plants are OK, but nothing special. Ionic charged nutrients. Dude do you even know what that means. All ions are charged. Some have a negative charg some a positive. DM does not chargethem or alter their charges. Is foliar feeding suppose to be impressing me or anyone else? Maybe I missed something, but what part of your Journal was special? There is no need for any exacting science or guess work involved in the Dutch Masters formulations Dude. All I can say is the your paying for convience statement is likely yoromnly real argument. The rest is just yaw flapping without science being involved at all.

I did not say your grow was sad. It is OK/acceptable/average although over lush. I said the raping of growers with absurd prices for mj specific nutrients is sad.

Dutch Masters products are merely average MJ specific nutrients. Nothing special. It is quite easy to obtain the lab results of the analyisis of Dutch Master nutrients as well as those of nutrients produced by AN, GH, Canna, Botanicare etc, etc. I assure you all these typical products containing just mineral based fertilzers can be easily mixed up for a very great deal less than they are sold for by retailers. Even finding out the ingrediants and concentrations of those with added supplements such as humic acids or amino acids is not difficult. There are no secrets or patents etc. Just many unknowledgable growers willing to pay high prices. The retailers are putting a very small mark up on the products in comparison to the manafacturers. They have to make their profits now while the market is both unknowledgable and while growing is still illegal for most growers and therfore U.S. manafacturers do not advertise mj specific formulations as does Canada and Holland etc. If and or when growing mj becomes legal by Federal law the mj specific manafacturers will either close up shop or dropp their prices tremendously. I would bet on them closing up shop. They really are just parasites taking advantage of U.S. growers.

Dutch Masters stuff is just more average and grossly over priced mj specific product. Nothing more than that.

Another example. I used calcium nitrate for simple mixing which added a small amount of Calcium. It can be easily formulated without the calcium though.

Dutch Masters Bloom Part B

Nitrogen 50
Phosphorus 530
Potassium 631
Magnesium 150
Calcium 64
Sulfur 199
Boron 1.00
Molybdenum .20

Ounces
Calcium Nitrate 4.3
MonoPotassium Phosphate 33.4
Magnesium Sulfate 20.2
Boric Acid / Solubor .074
Ammonium Molybdate .005
Volume of Stock Solutions 1
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.9
pH 5.2

Total Salts about 58 ounces or 3.6 pounds. Their cost to produce 1 gallon about $2

Are you done touting average products as being something special. I will say your plants look a bit better then the average (in some respects), but still by photos alone that does not mean a spectacular grow. The proof is in the time and costs of production kwh of power and nutrient costs etc., the bud to leaf ratio, final bud yield and quality. All I really could tell from you photos is a very high leaf to bud ratio likely due to excessive foliar applications of ammonium based nitrogen. That does not impress me at all. Nice short internodal spacing, but that really has nothing to do with the nutrient brand or even its formulation.


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## MEANGREEN69 (May 7, 2010)

HEY FATMAN, chill out. this isnt the "see how cool i am and how much i know thread" OK so put in your review or beat it...sorry if im being mean but damn theres more then one way to skin a cat bro....


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## ToWeRdog and FloWeRGirl (May 8, 2010)

I have seen many people ask for Fatman's opinion on nutrients. People ask him if he HAD to use a brand of nute, what would it be? I have never seen him give a direct answer. He just says how bad everyones nutes suck ass and his personal mix is the best for his style of growing. drain to waste. I would like to know what brand of nutes you would choose if you absolutely could not use anything else. come on Fatman, is it possible for you to give a simple one word answer?


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## Big P (May 8, 2010)

this is the best overall basic nutes:


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## Touchet (May 8, 2010)

A degree in chemistry huh? As I stated I am no chemist. Nor do I have the time OR DESIRE to give two shits about mixing my own nutes.

I'm sure "fatman" rolls through a Burger King every now and then for a bite when he could just as easily save all that money and raise a cow for slaughter himself, grow some wheat to make nice healthy buns and plant all his own veggies for pennies on the dollar. But, he doesn't, he rolls in and orders a #4 fuckin combo, just like I do when I roll into the local hydro shop. 

A degree in chemistry and a giant FAIL in common sense.

congrats


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## budman2069 (May 8, 2010)

who asked you meangreen69? butt out! fatman has something to say. i think i'll stick with dyna-gro and stay away from DM


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## Touchet (May 8, 2010)

budman2069 said:


> who asked you meangreen69? butt out! fatman has something to say. i think i'll stick with dyna-gro and stay away from DM



your right he does have something to say, and now that I read his whole attempted slaughter of my post he has something to prove.

"Your plants are OK, but nothing special."


I am a MECP 1st class installer, one of 113 in the entire country, when it comes to things carrying a charge I have forgotten more than you'll ever know. You really wanna discuss the elctron shells with me, cause we can. 


And this, you pos, really?!

Some photos of some poorly grown planys supplied with too much nitrogen is not somethinh that impresses me Dude. 
Well Mr I know it all and your plants are "poorly grown" feel free to prove what you say. 

LETS SEE YOUR PLANTS!

I have read every boring, lame ass, informative post you HAVE EVER MADE. And I have yet to see one friggin pic of a plant you have grown. So if I am wrong, please, post away.


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## MEANGREEN69 (May 8, 2010)

budman2069 said:


> who asked you meangreen69? butt out! fatman has something to say. i think i'll stick with dyna-gro and stay away from DM



LOL..sorry thread nazi, but the seed been planted. on with the nute reviews.


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## fatman7574 (May 8, 2010)

Common sense is to not waste your money on something others with more knowledge clearly explain to you and also show you in plain English is not special but simply a common fertilizer grosssly over priced. As for a simple recommendation based on choosing from just what is available from retailers and basing it upon the cost and the actual formulation and concentartions I would recommend the simple GH Flora series of Flora Gro, Flora Bloom and Flora Micro. I have said this many times in this forum. I do not normally repeat it everytime there is another started about nutrients. 

I assume people read more than just their own threads. Second choice of the major mj manafacturers would be its equivalent. It just happen this means at a greater cost for its equivalents. The Dutch Master Two Part grow and the Two Part Bloom, and at an even greater cost AN's standard two part Grow, Bloom and Micro. These are all nearly identical. None are better, just marketed differently and with different retail prices. 

As for all the supplements and foliar nutrients. In all respects except for the possible benefit of the foliar applied iron during the veg state with DM nutrients the foliar is over kill causing to much lushness. They are just not needed if the reservoirs are changed out regularly. Really. When people just added top off water to their reservoirs between reservoir changes and made changes every week to 10 days no supplements were needed nor were many even sold. They are not advances in mj nutrition science but merely half *ssed attempts at solving the many problems in recirculating reservoirs caused not changed out often enough and instead topping off with water AND more nutrients (IE the Lucas Method).

Look over these comparisons and tell me why you think Dutch Masters is better than either GH or AN.

Combining Dutch Master Gold Grow A and B (N-P-K)(Ca-Mg-S)(B-Cu-Fe-Mn-Mo-Zn)
(565-75-640) (570-75-25) (1-0.4-3-1.5-0.04-5)
Combining GH Flora Gro and Micro
(700-100-700) (500-50-33) (1-1-10-5-0.09-5)
AN Grow and Micro Combined
(600-100-600) (500-123-23) (10-1-8-3-0.09-3)


Combining Dutch Master Bloom A and B
(500-530-630) (230-158-120) (10-3-4-8-0-0.08-5)
Combining GH Flora Bloom and Micro
(500-500-500) (500-150-100) (10-1-8-3-0.09-5) 
AN Bloom and Micro Combined
(400-500-400) (500-123-150) (1-1-8-3-0.09-3)


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## fatman7574 (May 8, 2010)

Touchet said:


> your right he does have something to say, and now that I read his whole attempted slaughter of my post he has something to prove.
> 
> "Your plants are OK, but nothing special."
> 
> ...


 Dude why must you swear and use vulgarities? I need prove nothing through incrimidating myself with photos dude. If you can not simply leran without photos that does not concern me. Buy a comic book grade mj growing book. Its your money.

Wow, at least you admit my posts are informative. 


Learning is often painful to some Dude.


Dude, you will likely never see a photo I post as I do not post to open forum threads. I send photos only to known friends I can trust. I do not post to newbies or unknowns such as you. As a matter of fact I have not posted photos for anyone on this forum and likely never will. One term in prison is enough reason not to post photos again to any growing forums. My sense of self worth does not require your approval nor praise nor does my ego require me to impress others. I try to help others but some refuse to learn but instead just blabber and post incriminating photos so as to boost their egos.


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## fatman7574 (May 8, 2010)

Touchet said:


> A degree in chemistry huh? As I stated I am no chemist. Or a knowledgable grower. Nor do I have the time OR DESIRE to give two shits about mixing my own nutes. Then you obviously do not give two shits about quality mj growing.
> 
> I'm sure "fatman" rolls through a Burger King every now and then for a bite when he could just as easily save all that money and raise a cow for slaughter himself, grow some wheat to make nice healthy buns and plant all his own veggies for pennies on the dollar. I don't eat at burger king dude. I eat grilled steaks, shrimp, crab, lobster, lasagna. I wait for a cook to prepare a quality meal rather than settling for over priced average quality fair. Why settle for so little Dude. Even at home I eat quality hand prepared foods not over priced convenience food made or the masses. But, he doesn't, he rolls in and orders a #4 fuckin combo, just like I do when I roll into the local hydro shop. You just have no idea Dude of how to live with quality in your grows or life. Burger King. I have not eaten Burger King in over 40 years Dude. I do not even eat fast food. I did eat in a Boston's Restaurant once about 5 years ago. That was a mistake.
> 
> ...


I am not failing at anything Dude, it is you who is resorting to swearing and talking about fast food as you have no knowledge of nutrient chemistry or nutrient formulations in order to be able to actually hold a rational discussion.


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## mpdegn (May 8, 2010)

Damn ya had me laughing hard....... 



> raise a cow for slaughter himself, grow some wheat to make nice healthy buns and plant all his own veggies for pennies on the dollar


lol

Lets stick to the topic though.

Fatman, since you don't want to upload any pics, would you at least tell us what nutrients you use?


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## GreenThumbSucker (May 8, 2010)

ToWeRdog and FloWeRGirl said:


> I have seen many people ask for Fatman's opinion on nutrients. People ask him if he HAD to use a brand of nute, what would it be? I have never seen him give a direct answer. He just says how bad everyones nutes suck ass and his personal mix is the best for his style of growing. drain to waste. I would like to know what brand of nutes you would choose if you absolutely could not use anything else. come on Fatman, is it possible for you to give a simple one word answer?


He has answered that question in multiple threads. You should read more.


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## CLOSETGROWTH (May 8, 2010)

Lucas.. Micro and Bloom.. about 15 bucks a quart


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## GreenThumbSucker (May 8, 2010)

Touchet said:


> A degree in chemistry huh? As I stated I am no chemist. Nor do I have the time OR DESIRE to give two shits about mixing my own nutes.
> 
> I'm sure "fatman" rolls through a Burger King every now and then for a bite when he could just as easily save all that money and raise a cow for slaughter himself, grow some wheat to make nice healthy buns and plant all his own veggies for pennies on the dollar. But, he doesn't, he rolls in and orders a #4 fuckin combo, just like I do when I roll into the local hydro shop.
> 
> ...


Hey Einstein! Fatman doesnt mine the minerals from the earth, he buys them from a chemical supply house.

Talk about an epic fail of simple common sense....sheesh!! People are so intimidated by actual useful information. I have gleaned more usable information from the fatman over the last year than the rest of this forum combined.


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## CLOSETGROWTH (May 8, 2010)

I gotta give Fatman alot of respect, since I have read just about all of his posts, and threads..

Although, I dont agree with everything he says.

But I will say this, he's no dummy..

I would feel better if he would prove his growing abilities, and post a few shots of his success.

I liked what he had to say about nute temps.. very interesting read.


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## UrbanAerO (May 8, 2010)

Ill definetely check out the lucas formula, good info and I agree with you about AN, money hungry scamers, but with my garden I dont really have time or know where to aquire these ingredients. How does House and garden compare to AN? I have never seen a comparison with House and Garden and AN, Im sure all the AN comparisons are biased. I spend a lot of money on nutrients and would like to know which one is better. Untill I get to making my own I will buy nutrients, I may be a sucker but I still am able to afford it. 
I love the roots Closetgrowth, already have my mothers in 5 gallon buckets with hydroton and holes dilled to drain, but hydroton is such a waste of money!


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## fatman7574 (May 8, 2010)

Or mix them from premeasured bags of salt for about $12 per gallon to include shipping costs.


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## fatman7574 (May 8, 2010)

Court records have 194 photos of a snmall growing op of 128 square feet, and a laboratory. However, giving out the state and court case number is jsut advertising my name. PLus you would either have to ask for them by evidence numbers and pay 50 cents per copy or fly here to see them. No I have not got copies. The prison "lost" all copies of my court document moving me from one prison to another. Between the trial and the appeal. Go figure. I will think about sending some more recent photos to Tree Farmer or Atomizer from the Pod Thread. However, I will ask them not to post the photos in the forum. Best I can do.


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## fatman7574 (May 8, 2010)

UrbanAerO said:


> Ill definetely check out the lucas formula, good info and I agree with you about AN, money hungry scamers, but with my garden I dont really have time or know where to aquire these ingredients. How does House and garden compare to AN? I have never seen a comparison with House and Garden and AN, Im sure all the AN comparisons are biased. I spend a lot of money on nutrients and would like to know which one is better. Untill I get to making my own I will buy nutrients, I may be a sucker but I still am able to afford it.
> I love the roots Closetgrowth, already have my mothers in 5 gallon buckets with hydroton and holes dilled to drain, but hydroton is such a waste of money!


I would not buy any of the AN products other than the basic two part formulas. Even then only if I could not obtain GH or DM or some other najor brand. They really are closest enough to say they are the same. The above posted information shows that. You do have to really research non mj specific nutrients manafacurers such as the cheap brands for lawn and gardens such as Dyna-Gro as they use a lot of ammonium nitrogen or even urea which very often causes severe pH decline problems with indoor grows.Then just consider that you can buy the salts premeasured in seperatemarked bags. All you do is pour the salts into 1 gallon jgs therre fourths full of water, sahake and then fill to the top and shake. Not much work inorder to cut your cost by 75% or more. You do not get the pretty labels though.

Why do people always ssem to think one needs side by side growing comparisons. If the ingrediants are the same in near or very near the same proportions (ratios) they will perform the same no matter who puts their label on the bottle. IE a brands selling a fertilzer of 200-100-300-100-50-30- Ya da , ya da ya da will produce the same results as another brands 200-100-300-100-50-30- Ya da, ya da ya da fertilizer. Growers tend to get to caught up in brand names and marketing hype )Fta Miliie's bogus videos). You need to look at one good formulation that works for your system and parameters and mj strain. Then look at the brand names guranteed analysis and simply which brand provides the fertilizer with those levels you need the cheapest. I guranteed dry salts (even custom ordered) from manafacturers other than MJ specific suppliers will be the cheapest and AN will always be the most expensive. 

You need to be more specific than just saying house and garden fertilizer.

Replace your hydroton with rubber mulch (rubber cubes). It will not absorb water, but it will also not hold mass amounts of fertilizer salts like hydroton. Plus they do not roll awys when you drop them, crush when you step on them, support alf gae growth, nor are the difficult to rinse or disinfect between grow. Just rinse with chlorox water.


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## Touchet (May 8, 2010)

while me and the fatman dont seem to agree on everything eye to eye I would still like your opinion on suretogrow cubes.

http://www.suretogrow.com/


and since everyone else is stumped maybe you can offer an opinion here as well,

https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/328902-touchets-liquid-light-challenge.html


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## fatman7574 (May 8, 2010)

Touchet said:


> while me and the fatman dont seem to agree on everything eye to eye I would still like your opinion on suretogrow cubes.
> 
> http://www.suretogrow.com/
> 
> ...


Never used sure to grow cubes and i know no one involved in commercial growing who does. I simply use air atomized aero for clones. I used medium pressureaero before that, and low pressure aero before that. Prior to that I used a fine rounded silica sand and bar sprayers for cloning. I use the samesand for seed starts. It has been a long time since I have used absorbent media for anything.
Why bother the challege just does not matter. If you want lush growth and more Irion foliar spray. If you do not want lush growth that just blocks light and have no signs of iron deficiency whay bother with the foliar feeding. Th foliar feeding is no different then adding the same nutrients except it is force feeding nutrients that the palnt can eithet just uptal ke and needlesslystore orit can use up energy to transport it downthe palnts lenftgh and discharge them through the roots. foliar feeding is to provide nutrients that are hard to apply to fields (soil grown plants) once the plants is in friuit. This is not necessary with hydro wahere you can just add it to the nutrient water. where the plant can take iy up as it chooses. foliar feeding nutrients to hydro plants with a reservoir is jsut a =marketing scam to make larger profits.

I am not water that anyone but you are stumped.


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## sponger2004 (May 9, 2010)

Fatman,

Is the ideal to provide nutrient solutions at ratios and concentrations identical to plant needs? Is there evidence of this? Is it cost-effective to make that our goal? I'd think that nutrient requirements among plants differ even among clones from the same mother. Add in RH, light, and temperature and the variables become exponential. 

As an alternative hypothesis mightn't it be true that as long as individual nutrient ppms are contained within a range the plant will only uptake as much as it needs? If this were true all we'd need to do is mix the solution at ratios somewhere within the range, water the plant, and wash out the excess on the next watering, constantly keeping the medium within the correct range. 

Is it even possible to know any of this stuff? What are the commercial guys doing? Are they constantly tweaking their formulas? I think I read you saying somewhere that you use 3-1-2 for flowering. If that's true, then you must think that different ratios during different stages of flowering is unnecessary. That would fly in the face of what a lot of nutrient companies are saying.


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## fatman7574 (May 9, 2010)

mj nutrient formulations are designed typically for growing mj plants with inert media and with recirculating reservoirs in mind. The nutrient ratios are purposely skewed to hopefully compensate for all the buffering and precipitation that takes place in recirculating reservoirs. There are other alleged hydroponic fertilizers designed for growing (hydroponically) in soil type medias. Ideally though they are designed for outdoor growing in soil type medias. 
The only growing method where you can simply provide the plants nutrients at near to the ratio they are found in tissue samples is through growing in inert media with drain to waste. Even then you have to realize that plants take up and store nutrients beyond their needs so that they can use them at some later date when they might not be available for uptake. Quality aero systems with drain to waster for example are provided different ratios of nutrients then other growing methods and at much lower concentrations. There is no need to provide larger concentrations or extra of any fertilizer for buffering because the nutrient water is discarded after being sprayed on the roots a single time. There are few nutrients left in the water and very little water left to drain away. 

Commercial growers of vegetables use tissue samples every time they change strains or seed suppliers. Some grow drain to waste. Easier, more efficient but more expensive some believe. Those using drain to waste actually test their nutrients every few days for levels of all but trace nutrients. Their additions are compared to tissue sample levels and starting ppm and adjustments are made to allow for the needs shown by the plants plus buffering needs. Trace nutrient needs are usually based more upon the plants appearance and growing performance.

In general a plants up takes only its needs and some more for storage. That varies in amounts but not much in ratios with changes in strains, temps, lighting, humidity, CO2 etc. How ever plants can easily take up more than its needs when the ratios are too far out of range or when the pH is to far from the optimal nutrient up take range. If plants only took up what they needed then their would be no need to worry about nitrogen burn or nutrient toxicity due to a high EC. These can both happen even with proper nutrient ratios. Are plants good at selectively up take of only what they need. No not that really. They are pretty good at realizing from their roots and nutrients they do not need. Nutrient selection by plants is mainly a pH driven selection process which is based upon the ratio of positive to negative charges of the water both in the reservoir and the plants roots moisture.


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## mpdegn (May 9, 2010)

Fatman,
How do you feel about Holland's Secret? Would you say those are good hydro nutes? Here's a link:
http://www.ncwgs.com/grow_micro_bloom.php
You can find them all over the internet. I'm only using Micro and Bloom right now. 

I have a 8ft sativa which just completely grew beyond expectations. The plant is huge. Can I continue using only Bloom and Micro until harvest? I've been flowering for almost 3 months now and I don't know if that's because sativas take longer or because I'm not using enough nutrients. Do bigger plants need higher nutrient ratios? The plant is also very close to the light, since it's so tall. It's not causing any burn, though. Does the proximity to the light make the plant think that it is still vegetating? It's definitely full of hairs but it just won't mature. The calyxes won't swell. 

Thanks for your opinion man.


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## sponger2004 (May 9, 2010)

Thanks for the information, fatman.


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## fatman7574 (May 9, 2010)

mpdegn said:


> Fatman,
> How do you feel about Holland's Secret? Would you say those are good hydro nutes? Here's a link:
> http://www.ncwgs.com/grow_micro_bloom.php
> You can find them all over the internet. I'm only using Micro and Bloom right now.
> ...


It is pretty near the same nutrient formulation as the 2 Part formulations sold by GH, AN and Dutch Masters.

Combined with Micro the Grow formulation is:
N=700, P=100, K=900, Ca=500, Mg=0, S=200, B=20, Cu=0, Fe=10, Mn=0, Z=56.9, Mo=7.96

Combined with Micro the Bloom formulation is:
N=500, P=600, K=600, Ca=500, Mg=100, S=20, B=20, Cu=0, Fe=10, Mn=0, Z=56.9, Mo=7.96

Average with the exception of higher nitrogen for budding then Blooming, and for some reason a lack of the trace nutrients Manganese and Copper and strangely no Magnesiun in the veg formulation. I would add 100 grams of Magnesium to a 1 gallon bottle of a 100x concentrate of the Grow formula. IE 1 gram per diluted gallon of nutrients. The Molybdenum level is laso very high but it comes as a trace contaminant from one of their nutrients salts.

A deficiency of copper shows up as wilted and distorted foliage. I find it difficult to believe they left manganese out of their formulation. I have only one record on each of Holland Secret's formulations however none of their formulations show a presence of manganese. Manganese deficiency would apper as a dull grey appearance followed by yellowing of the newest leaves between the veins which usually stay green. If the price is good and your happy with its results I would simply just buy a small amount of Manganeses Sulfate on eBay. It would only require 1/4 ounce fora 1 gallon bottle of 100X concentrate fertilizer to obtain the recommended concentration of 5 ppm. One pound can be bought for $4 on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/Manganese-Sulfate-Powder-32-Mn-1-Pound-/270341419492?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ef19ab1e4

Lkely the only way to spped up the budding is to provide more lighting. There is not a lot of intense light beyond 3 or 4 feet below the light. A sativa's bracts do not swell up as large as an Indica or Afghani. The bracts are the pod that the seed normally grows within. The calayxes are just the hairs. The easiest way to tell just how close your plants are to harvest is to use a mahnify glass and look at the shape and color of the resins. If the resins beads are still white and swollen and upright it is to early for harvest. You actualy want a resin bead that looks sorta exhausted and more amber to brown in color.


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## mpdegn (May 10, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> It is pretty near the same nutrient formulation as the 2 Part formulations sold by GH, AN and Dutch Masters.
> 
> Combined with Micro the Grow formulation is:
> N=700, P=100, K=900, Ca=500, Mg=0, S=200, B=20, Cu=0, Fe=10, Mn=0, Z=56.9, Mo=7.96
> ...


Thanks for all the useful info Fatman. If you had a donate button man, I'd definitely throw you some 
Ok, I'm not at home right now to check the back of the bottles, but if there really is no Manganese in the formulation, I will consider buying some online. I wish there were smaller amounts. 1lb seems like a lot. Are there any local places I should check first? What about copper? Can I buy copper online as well?
I remember reading your Lucas formula from scratch thread and I was wondering where to buy all those ingredients. $7 per gallon of fert seems very affordable and at the same time you know that you have all the important ingredients.

I was most likely referring to the bracts then. I thought the hairs are called pistils and the bracts were the calyxes. Thanks for clarifying that. Some of the bracts are not covered with trichomes or resin at all which kinda concerns me. That much hair and no resin? You think this is some BS strain or just another late sativa? I'm using 400W HPS with a DWC system and you've seen my nutes. I have no explanation right now. I grew 2 indicas in the same reservoir and they turned out sooo good. At some places the plant is also growing seeds. I have found 3 seeds so far. This is a very confusing grow, I have to admit.

Thanks for your opinion man.


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## mpdegn (May 10, 2010)

I'm sorry, didn't mean to write 1lb seems like a lot. For some reason I thought it said 10lbs, which would be a lot. Not 1lb though.


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## fatman7574 (May 10, 2010)

What many call pistils are properly called Stigmas. These fuzzy liitle white Stigmas in their traditional peace sign V form are attached to a ovule contained in a small pod that is formed by Bracts. Bracts are modified leaves. These pods contain the sex ovules which typically are not seen. The ovules swell as if going through a false pregnacy if unfertilized. The bracts remain around them. I can only assume when a person says calyx they are referring to the whole pod comprised of the ovule, bracts and stigmas.

Calyxs or sepals is a term used by florists for the same type of modified leaf covering found over female sex glands on many ornamental flowers. It is not a term that is really proper to mj plants.


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## UrbanAerO (May 11, 2010)

house and garden Van de zwaan products, also use M.O.A.B(mother of all bloom), few botanicare products and superthrive. Had okay results this harvest(2lbs) with 1-1000w(liquid cooled on light mover) and 40 plants, but a root rot issue slowed our growth. I dont use hydroton on clones through flowering(just foam inserts from an EZ cloner), I have cut back the watering cycle dramatically and they seem strive/ grow much faster plus were not seeing the dark slimy/fragile roots anymore. I spend more money on electricity than nutrients by far(600$/mo), so how to get the most lbs/per light is more appealing than saving money on nutrients. I only have 60amps to work with so 3 1000watt lights with pumps/fans/ozone is about all I can run and still watch TV. someone needs to start a thread on how to "hot tap" utility and not get caught. Its actually pretty safe to do with the latest hot taps out.


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## fatman7574 (May 15, 2010)

With an electric boill like thatyou must be in Europe. Here, it runs $84 to run a 1000 watt light 12 hours a day for 30 days. Counting all electricity it only cost $0.20 per gram for electricity on my sog grows including the veg and clone lighting etc. That is with air conditioning, dehumidifier, chiller for lights and growing nethodology is air atomized aeroponics. It is drain to waste with CO2. 6 weeks to bud Indicas to a medium amber state. Average 19 dry grams per plant. Total cost less than 40 cents per gram to include maintenance etc.


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## jberry (May 15, 2010)

600 bucks is not very much at all in cali if u have a decent set up.


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## fatman7574 (May 16, 2010)

Your paying what about 50 cents per kwh?


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## jberry (May 16, 2010)

yea, by the end of the first week its up to .48 cents a kwh... sad i know... for around ten grand u can get a upgrade service and then its a flat fee of like 11 cents a kwh... but just getting the upgrade may raise some eyebrows.


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## JohnnyGreenthumb (May 20, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Insane prices.
> 
> For an example:
> *Dutch Masters Liquid Light*
> ...



LOL not really I drop $350 for all my bloom enhancers,ect actually that seem pretty nice since you will still yield 1.5 to 1.75 lbs per 1000w INDICA dominate
I hear DM GOLD is some good stuff and the yellow bottle Bloom (ausi advanced horticulture or something like that,know this grower who love the stuff.all these are not cheap like GH or Fox and you will not receive the same outcome either


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## JohnnyGreenthumb (May 20, 2010)

Advanced Nutrients Connoisseur avg $300 to $350(flowering)WORTH EVERY $$$$$$$$ 
I have used DM advance,GH"blah",fox farms"ok stuff"never much over 1 lb per 1000w.


Week 5
pic of half room
2 gallon pots 4' to 5' tall
View attachment 947902
LOL I forgot the last photo the bottle is being held up by the lower buds


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## JohnnyGreenthumb (May 20, 2010)

OH YEAH last but not least everyone,everyone
good ol unsulfered blackstrap molasses I use 30ml(two large spoon fulls of sugar) per 5 gallon or 16 or 18.something liters


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## Smuggler (May 20, 2010)

Wow, thanks for all the info so far. S


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## hyerollin (May 21, 2010)

i am using house and garden root excell, top booster, multi zyme, bud xl, aqua flakes AnB, magic green, shootig powder the cost is $700 per harvest i am a first time grower i have a ebb n gro system wit 90 pots, should i use molasis? ay input would be great! anyone used H&G and compared ?


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## fatman7574 (May 21, 2010)

UrbanAerO said:


> Ill definetely check out the lucas formula, good info and I agree with you about AN, money hungry scamers, but with my garden I dont really have time or know where to aquire these ingredients. How does House and garden compare to AN? I have never seen a comparison with House and Garden and AN, Im sure all the AN comparisons are biased. I spend a lot of money on nutrients and would like to know which one is better. Untill I get to making my own I will buy nutrients, I may be a sucker but I still am able to afford it.
> I love the roots Closetgrowth, already have my mothers in 5 gallon buckets with hydroton and holes dilled to drain, but hydroton is such a waste of money!


I would recommend that you simply replace the hydroton with rubber mulch. they are non absorbent so there is no CEC (nutrient scavenging) done by the rubber as done my hydroton. You have to understand d though that the rubber being non absorbent is like using gravel or another non absorbent material, meaning it requires watering more frequently. It is about as close to aero as you can get without actually being aero. Well actually Bio-balls would be closer but a lot more expensive.

When buying rubber mulch buy the reddish brown mulch as it is waste plastic that is cud bed. The black mulch is usually recycled old tires so there is always some oil, gasoline etc that leach from the rubber. This does not effect the plants except that an oil sheen on the waters surface lowers DO in the reservoir unless you aerate your reservoir.


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