# Roots absorb nutrient ions through porins



## Tektek (Jul 28, 2014)

Comments, more data?
Porins are large "tube shaped" protein molecules embedded in the cell membrane. Active transport of some ions against the concentration gradient or just to speed absorption. Passive absorption of some ions with the concentration gradient. Porins for water too, one molecule at a time.

If I remember correctly, different porins for each ion? 

Porin channels have small diameter. Just wide enough to actively move one Calcium ion at a time. 

But rule of thumb says, plants will non specifically absorb any molecule or ion up to a certain size. Even if they only absorb a little. Heavy metals, herbicides. Anyone know the size limit?


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## Canibal (Oct 18, 2014)

All I can tell you is the ideal droplet size in aeroponics is about 50 microns. Fulvic acid makes an excellent wetting agent.


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## CaliCannaissuer (Oct 20, 2014)

Tektek said:


> If I remember correctly, different porins for each ion?
> 
> But rule of thumb says, plants will non specifically absorb any molecule or ion up to a certain size. Even if they only absorb a little. Heavy metals, herbicides. Anyone know the size limit?


Well porins are basically the individual openings between the cell walls located in the outmost layers of the roots.

Certain porins absorb different ions and some absorb the same ion as another porin, that gets very complicated and beyond my knowledge.

On different species of plants you will find unique or different sized porins. For example, marijuana is known as a container plant. This is because it will absorb heavy metals and radioactive chemicals and never release them. The porins somehow absorb these larger ions such as Hg+ or U+ and then they become logged inside the plant. I do not know if this means the porins are larger or if the ions are manipulated somehow through pH and solubility but I'll ask my plant sciences friend and see what he or his professor say about the relative size of porins, chelation of metal ions, and container absorbtion of heavy metals and radioactive elements in plants such as cannabis.

It just depends on what ion and what plant under what solution conditions(pH,EC,temp)

What are you trying to get absorbed into the plant?


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## Cannasutraorganics (Oct 20, 2014)

They can absorb it, but not always use it. If it's too big it just passes through or is re deposited in the soil for further decomp.


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## Tektek (Mar 5, 2016)

Wow, gone awhile.
Just some sci stuff. wish people would stop trying to get plants to absorb things the plant does not need.


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## churchhaze (Mar 6, 2016)

Tektek said:


> Wow, gone awhile.
> Just some sci stuff. wish people would stop trying to get plants to absorb things the plant does not need.


You mean like sugars, amino acids, and vitamins? Yeah good luck convincing them.


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## The Nine (Mar 8, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You mean like sugars, amino acids, and vitamins? Yeah good luck convincing them.


Amino acids enhance calcium uptake considerably, they hold the keys to the cell membrane allowing a much greater in flux than with out.
Check out Harley smith on YouTube, he speaks sense on this issue.


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## churchhaze (Mar 8, 2016)

The Nine said:


> Amino acids enhance calcium uptake considerably, they hold the keys to the cell membrane allowing a much greater in flux than with out.
> Check out Harley smith on YouTube, he speaks sense on this issue.


Harley Smith is trying to sell you amino acids. His entire line of nutrients is a rip off.


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## The Nine (Mar 8, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Harley Smith is trying to sell you amino acids. His entire line of nutrients is a rip off.


Have you ever used them along side a basic nutrient?
A friend of mine is using the whole range on this grow, and I must say they are looking in fine fettle. 

If you know where it's possible to buy the same ingredients at the same solubility rate but cheaper I would appreciate the source. 
Thanks in advance.


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## churchhaze (Mar 8, 2016)

cropking.


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## since1991 (Mar 25, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Harley Smith is trying to sell you amino acids. His entire line of nutrients is a rip off.


Of course he is. Hes a face for NPK industries. Hes gotta eat too. I think the guy is a treasure of very valuable information and ive spoken to him and his wife several times. Privately....he will talk your ear off. Hes got a passion for horticulture for sure. You could do your garden a favor by listening to this guy. You dont have to buy the product from the company he represents.


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## since1991 (Mar 25, 2016)

Left turning aminos like glycine....whether aminos we put in are taken up by the plant or not is not a question anymore.


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## since1991 (Mar 25, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You mean like sugars, amino acids, and vitamins? Yeah good luck convincing them.


You guys regurgitate forum nonsense and bro science. I listen to real world scientists that travel the globe searching for the latest in studies tests and the cutting edge in horticulture.


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## green27 (Mar 25, 2016)

since1991 said:


> You guys regurgitate forum nonsense and bro science. I listen to real world scientists that travel the globe searching for the latest in studies tests and the cutting edge in horticulture.


can you point me to where they are i would like to get pro tips too


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## since1991 (Mar 25, 2016)

Youtube.....Harley Smith. Used to work for HDI in Lansing Michigan. Now works for NPK Industries....the makers of RAW Solubles. He gives a lecture thats on youtube. It is quite long...2 parts but its chocked full of cutting edge info that goes against the bullshit on the forums. He also writes articles for magazines that are just awesome. The guy knows his shit and thats an under statement.


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## green27 (Mar 25, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Youtube.....Harley Smith. Used to work for HDI in Lansing Michigan. Now works for NPK Industries....the makers of RAW Solubles. He gives a lecture thats on youtube. It is quite long...2 parts but its chocked full of cutting edge info that goes against the bullshit on the forums. He also writes articles for magazines that are just awesome. The guy knows his shit and thats an under statement.


thank you im gonna check em out now thanks bud!


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## since1991 (Mar 25, 2016)

You will notice...the crowd listeneing to the lecture is just silent. Hardly any questions. It all just went rite over thier heads. These are your typical cannabis growers in my experience.


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You mean like sugars, amino acids, and vitamins? Yeah good luck convincing them.


 I remember growing w out those and n-p-k boosters. I sure don't miss those days, under 1.5 per light. Now with all those things they "don't" need it's over 2 every time.


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

Guess you "don't need" a motor vehicle to go across country since we have feet but they make it so much better. 
10000000 ways to grow, choose 1 and dial it in


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

I grow in coco coir. Using humic and amino acid in the reservoir and as foliar sprays my calcium magnesium and iron uptake problems are a thing of the past. I have a bottle of calmag always but it hardly gets used anymore.


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## churchhaze (Mar 29, 2016)

The bro science is people claiming that amino acids and vitamins will make any difference in growth or yield.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

No the bro science is not researching anything beyond pot grower consensus and forum heresay.


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## churchhaze (Mar 29, 2016)

Chillin chillin said:


> I remember growing w out those and n-p-k boosters. I sure don't miss those days, under 1.5 per light. Now with all those things they "don't" need it's over 2 every time.


N-P-K boosters? You mean nutrients?


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## churchhaze (Mar 29, 2016)

since1991 said:


> No the bro science is not researching anything beyond pot grower consensus and forum heresay.


Plants eat N, P, K, Ca, Mg, S, Fe, Mn, B, Zn,Cu, Mo, Cl.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

Look man its like this....sure you can grow great weed with a solid full profile base nutrient. But if your room is really dialed in (most are not -believe that - its expensive to do it where the little things have a huge impact) you will see gains and quality by using things like amino acids, kelp based hormones, carbohydrates, vitamins, and humics. Thats a fact. Your strain and environment is most of it....dial that in first. Then you introduce the bio stimulants for improved quality and yields. Most never make it this far with a proven strain so when they add something like hormones or amino acids they see nothing.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Plants eat N, P, K, Ca, Mg, S, Fe, Mn, B, Zn,Cu, Mo, Cl.


With your word "eat" i can tell your a forum born and raised grower.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

Theres nothing wro g with that bro....but its only "half" the story.


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## churchhaze (Mar 29, 2016)

since1991 said:


> With your word "eat" i can tell your a forum born and raised grower.


I've been following these forums since the overgrow days, so yes I'd say I'm forum born and raised.

I've been designing my own hydroponic formulas for the past 7 years now and have made over 18 iterations of my formula, dialing in on the perfect nutrient profile. The reason you're seeing improvement in your grows has nothing to do with the bullshit products you've been adding. You're probably just better at growing than you were when you didn't use those products.

You say it's expensive to become "really" dialed in, but my nutrients are likely some of the cheapest on the forum. Generic salts.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I've been following these forums since the overgrow days, so yes I'd say I'm forum born and raised.
> 
> I've been designing my own hydroponic formulas for the past 7 years now and have made over 18 iterations of my formula, dialing in on the perfect nutrient profile. The reason you're seeing improvement in your grows has nothing to do with the bullshit products you've been adding. You're probably just better at growing than you were when you didn't use those products.
> 
> You say it's expensive to become "really" dialed in, but my nutrients are likely some of the cheapest on the forum. Generic salts.


When i say expensive i mean can you change the humidity and temperature of your room in one number increments? Where it stays at the desired environment target numbers consistently no matter what? I mean really really dialed?


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> N-P-K boosters? You mean nutrients?


 Um yes kinda like Nitrogen boost is a N booster and top booster is a P K booster. 1 is used in flower and the other in bloom


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## churchhaze (Mar 29, 2016)

since1991 said:


> When i say expensive i mean can you change the humidity and temperature of your room in one number increments?


What does that have anything to do with what you put in the root zone?


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## churchhaze (Mar 29, 2016)

Chillin chillin said:


> Um yes kinda like Nitrogen boost is a N booster and top booster is a P K booster. 1 is used in flower and the other in bloom


NPK = food. Yes, you should feed your plants.


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I've been following these forums since the overgrow days, so yes I'd say I'm forum born and raised.
> 
> I've been designing my own hydroponic formulas for the past 7 years now and have made over 18 iterations of my formula, dialing in on the perfect nutrient profile. The reason you're seeing improvement in your grows has nothing to do with the bullshit products you've been adding. You're probably just better at growing than you were when you didn't use those products.
> 
> You say it's expensive to become "really" dialed in, but my nutrients are likely some of the cheapest on the forum. Generic salts.


 Come on bro I know you really don't think that you get the same results just adding water over water w nutrients in them


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

Wow!!!!
Ok. Iam not even gonna go any further. Your rite iam wrong. Carry on with your homemade salts... Great job...nice plants.


churchhaze said:


> What does that have anything to do with what you put in the root zone?


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## churchhaze (Mar 29, 2016)

Chillin chillin said:


> Come on bro I know you really don't think that you get the same results just adding water over water w nutrients in them


I'm not sure I understand this post completely, but I'll give it a shot. No, you won't get the same result using water vs water with nutrients in it. If you don't feed your plants, they will grow slowly, turn yellow, and die.


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## churchhaze (Mar 29, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Wow!!!!
> Ok. Iam not even gonna go any further. Your rite iam wrong. Carry on with your homemade salts... Great job...nice plants.


Well you are wrong about amino acids. Amino acids are just another form of organic N that needs to be broken down into ammonia.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

What you put in your root zone has EVERYTHING TO DO WITH ATMOSPHERIC HUMIDITY TEMPERATURE AND CARBON DIOXIDE LEVELS. Thats all iam going to say any further. Your question above said it all for me.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Well you are wrong about amino acids. Amino acids are just another form of organic N that needs to be broken down into ammonia.


No iam not.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

You need to quit while your ahead.


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## churchhaze (Mar 29, 2016)

since1991 said:


> No iam not.


Amino acid is N that hasn't been broken down yet. Animals need to injest amino acids to synthesis proteins. Animals die and release amino acids back into the soil. Amino acids break down into ammonia and ammonia breaks down into nitrate. Plants eat nitrate and ammonia. Plants produce amino acids.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Amino acid is N that hasn't been broken down yet.


Cmon dude...damn man.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

Thank god growing pot is easy enough huh?


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Amino acid is N that hasn't been broken down yet. Animals need to injest amino acids to synthesis proteins. Animals die and release amino acids back into the soil. Amino acids break down into ammonia and ammonia breaks down into nitrate. Plants eat nitrate and ammonia. Plants produce amino acids.


Huh? You need to school up my friend. Its ALOT more than that.


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> The bro science is people claiming that amino acids and vitamins will make any difference in growth or yield.


 Are you saying they make no difference what so ever?


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## churchhaze (Mar 29, 2016)

Chillin chillin said:


> Are you saying they make no difference what so ever?


What I'm saying is to quit wasting your time on it.


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## pinner420 (Mar 29, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Youtube.....Harley Smith. Used to work for HDI in Lansing Michigan. Now works for NPK Industries....the makers of RAW Solubles. He gives a lecture thats on youtube. It is quite long...2 parts but its chocked full of cutting edge info that goes against the bullshit on the forums. He also writes articles for magazines that are just awesome. The guy knows his shit and thats an under statement.


Ive been doing the 5:2 humic to kelp for 90 days. I've used fossil fuel and rhyzotonic [little more refined than nitrozyme] however today my shop had a sale on cyco rhyzo 40% off.. Seems legit to 50 minerals compared to canas 13...


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> What I'm saying is to quit wasting your time on it.


This is not true. Look up what left turning aminos like glycine can do when introduced to the root zone. Or sprayed on the stomata.


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> What I'm saying is to quit wasting your time on it.


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

Such a waste


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

Yup. Aminos dont do shit. Lol.


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

Guess carbs and teas are a waste of time also who needs crystals, lmao
orher people's kids.....


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

BOOM!!! Chillin just drops the mic and walks away!!!. Nice room bro.


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## pinner420 (Mar 29, 2016)

Ill just put this here..
.http://www.bestseedbank.com/hydroponic-carbohydrates-and-amino-acid-products/


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## churchhaze (Mar 29, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Yup. Aminos dont do shit. Lol.


Are you suggesting his good results are from him using amino acids? That's what it sounds like.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

I was just getting ready to break down tryptophan and arginine but now i dont have to.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Are you suggesting his good results are from him using amino acids? That's what it sounds like.


No. What iam suggesting is you do a little more research into the science behind horticulture and botany. And the photosythetic processes of basic C3 plants. Thats what i suggest. Your out of your league. I can tell by what you post.


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## churchhaze (Mar 29, 2016)

since1991 said:


> *Your* out of your league.


It's "you're".


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> It's "you're".


Really? Cmon dude. Thats what you got? Fortunately growing some quick buds is fairly easy huh?


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## pinner420 (Mar 29, 2016)

Whilst marshalling it past the endodermis is hard that is what the ratio of 5:2 that the Virginia Tech study Harley Smith speaks of. 50% more biochemical reactions in the root zone.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

pinner420 said:


> Whilst marshalling it past the endodermis is hard that is what the ratio of 5:2 that the Virginia Tech study Harley Smith speaks of. 50% more biochemical reactions in the root zone.


Hes a heavy dude. Ive talked to Mr. Smith on several occasions years and years ago. He will load your head up in an hour what it can take 15 years of forum bullshit.


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## pinner420 (Mar 29, 2016)

It's more fair to say it's systemic.


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## churchhaze (Mar 29, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Hes a heavy dude. Ive talked to Mr. Smith on several occasions years and years ago. He will load your head up in an hour what it can take 15 years of forum bullshit.


Again, the forum bullshit is people focusing so much time and money on this nonsense. It's not even plant food. Plants absorb nutrient ions. Didn't you read the title of the thread?

You should be spending more time focusing on things like how much iron, magnesium, potassium, nitrogen, phosphorous, etc you should use... not things like carbs, amino acids, and vitamins. Those products are distractions and make it harder for you to narrow in on what your plant is actually asking for. A naive grower might attribute the changes made to his nutrient profile, or environment in general, on additions of snake oil products. This conditions him to think he needs to keep using those products or risk losing the results he's been getting.


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## pinner420 (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Again, the forum bullshit is people focusing so much time and money on this nonsense. It's not even plant food. Plants absorb nutrient ions. Didn't you read the title of the thread?
> 
> You should be spending more time focusing on things like how much iron, magnesium, potassium, nitrogen, phosphorous, etc you should use... not things like carbs, amino acids, and vitamins. Those products are distractions and make it harder for you to narrow in on what your plant is actually asking for.


You see the keys to the casperian strip are in this notion you reject. These are the conduit. Much success..


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Again, the forum bullshit is people focusing so much time and money on this nonsense. It's not even plant food. Plants absorb nutrient ions. Didn't you read the title of the thread?
> 
> You should be spending more time focusing on things like how much iron, magnesium, potassium, nitrogen, phosphorous, etc you should use... not things like carbs, amino acids, and vitamins. Those products are distractions and make it harder for you to narrow in on what your plant is actually asking for. A naive grower might attribute the changes made to his nutrient profile, or environment in general, on additions of snake oil products. This conditions him to think he needs to keep using those products or risk losing the results he's been getting.


My plants arent asking for much. My nutrient regimen has been dialed....for years. Nutrients are the basics bro. Running the rite strain in a very dialed in room with perfect canopy....perfect temps humidity and co2 that i can control consistently day or night....thats a garden. And adding aminos carbs and humics to the root zone or foliar sprays....gives my product that extra edge in quality and quantity. Are they needed? No. But when everything else is dailed to a tee....they make a noticeable difference. Thats a fact that cannot be disputed. Knowing exactly what do and when to do it helps....alot. As far as snake oil products....alot are over priced ripoffs. And you can make YOUR own at a far cheaper price point.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

And what you think you know about aminos is well....uh.....


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Again, the forum bullshit is people focusing so much time and money on this nonsense. It's not even plant food. Plants absorb nutrient ions. Didn't you read the title of the thread?
> 
> You should be spending more time focusing on things like how much iron, magnesium, potassium, nitrogen, phosphorous, etc you should use... not things like carbs, amino acids, and vitamins. Those products are distractions and make it harder for you to narrow in on what your plant is actually asking for. A naive grower might attribute the changes made to his nutrient profile, or environment in general, on additions of snake oil products. This conditions him to think he needs to keep using those products or risk losing the results he's been getting.


Silica
A
B
Cal/mag
Vitamins/ tricantnol(how ever it's spelled)
Amino acids
Carbs
Nitrogen boost
Bud blood
Bud igniter
Big bud
Overdrive
Koop bloom
Top booster

Tell me what's my snake oil and I'll tell you how much your loosing by not using, lol


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

Chillin chillin said:


> Silica
> A
> B
> Cal/mag
> ...


What strain is that being ran? And do you mind explaining how important temps humidity co2 and canopy management control is when running full tilt like your obviously doing? Your running sealed arent you? Sante fe dehueys? Mini split? Nice at any rate.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

since1991 said:


> What strain is that being ran? And do you mind explaining how important temps humidity co2 and canopy management control is when running full tilt like your obviously doing? Your running sealed arent you? Sante fe dehueys? Mini split? Nice at any rate.


And can you guesstimate how much loss in yields if you would if just used a simple a&b base nute? I know when your DIALED like that the extras make a noticeable difference.


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

since1991 said:


> What strain is that being ran? And do you mind explaining how important temps humidity co2 and canopy management control is when running full tilt like your obviously doing? Your running sealed arent you? Sante fe dehueys? Mini split? Nice at any rate.


 That is a Kush strain that somebody tried to pass to me as an og, anyways I keep her @ 2+ and she roots easy. Only down fall is mold happens if your humidity is high.....
You see what peps don't realize is when your lights shut off the humidity spikes to the roof, down to the floor and if not removed @ a rapid rate(expensive things you plug into the wall and plug other things into, lol) w controllers fans and/ or dehumidifies (my room is not sealed no co2. Good ole excuse fans thru carbon filters w intake vents thru out) then as your bud grows to much moister is retained inside the bud turning your good green brown, it turns all kinds of nasty.


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

Bro I yielded under 1lb per 1000w w just a and b 8 years ago. I think it was like .69 or something crazy


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

I now stay above 2 but can't break that 3.2 mark. With co2 I think I could but no natural gas here and I'll be damned if I lug those tanks around


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

Plant canopy maintenance is a whole different story, many would disagree w how much leaf I pull before flowering.


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

My big sour og gets botrytis (just a little on the thickest colas) if i dont keep humidity down in flower....lights off especially. It still happens occasionally on the big ass ones. Cant belp it. They just get too thick and trap moisture. My open structured less yielding strains never get the rot. Its all in the strains.


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)




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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

since1991 said:


> My big sour og gets botrytis (just a little on the thickest colas) if i dont keep humidity down in flower....lights off especially. It still happens occasionally on the big ass ones. Cant belp it. They just get too thick and trap moisture. My open structured less yielding strains never get the rot. Its all in the strains.



I found that by replacing the air in the room that problem quit for me


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

I hate botrytis. After I figured out how to grow fat buds botrytis was my next battle. Never beat it in a sealed room w co2 even w the big blue dehu and low humidity.


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

Big sour og.... What area are you in? I ask cause I would love to trade..... 
Damn we are faaaaaar apart


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 29, 2016)

I lost that strain when the ninja turtles came......


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## since1991 (Mar 29, 2016)

Yeah shes a proven runner. But not super uber top shelf. Great commercial strain. I got it from a friend of a friend in mid michigan. Sweet juicy fruit gum and lemon smell. Sticky when harvested. Smells like rotten cherries and funky MD 20/20 stale wine when cured. Ive ran it for years. Roots in exactly 10 days with rockwool and dome/heatmat. Gets stretchy. Needs canopy support. Shes just a pig. Its my weight strain. 60 to 75 day satty dom. Its definitely not the knock u out super potent of my stable but i have those too. Those are all average to small yielding indy doms that fuk u rite up. Its a nice long mellow sativa high that lasts all day. Ive yet to find something to knock her out of the heavy weight division. Chicks and normal tokers love it cuz it doesnt devastate you. High tolerance dabbers and personal growers weed it is not.


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## The Nine (Mar 30, 2016)

Chillin chillin said:


> I hate botrytis. After I figured out how to grow fat buds botrytis was my next battle. Never beat it in a sealed room w co2 even w the big blue dehu and low humidity.


A friend of mine is having the same problems. 
His colas are huge but he has already lost 6 of his biggest due to bud rot, it seems to start at the stem within the concealed bud area and then spreads like cancer up and down the bud and if left, right along the full stem and to other plants that touch the problem buds. 

Have you ever heard of anyone using colloidal silver sprayed into the infected area? 
If so, what effects did it have on the rot and on the plant as a whole?


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 30, 2016)

Never have. He needs to exchange his air in the room. That spray is a band aid, just fix the problem


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## since1991 (Mar 30, 2016)

My biggest problem with vented rooms is where i live. I never got aroumd the fact that cooling or dehumidifying was impossible when its summer and its 88 degrees with 80% RH outside. Just not going to happen. In the fall/winter and cooler more dry days it was much easier. With vented rooms i was always at the mercy of what the weather was like outside. And crops were inconsistent because of this. I made the switch to totally sealed rooms with co2 and appliances to control the climate. Much easier....less headache...more consistency but its expensive as hell.


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 30, 2016)

Damn, I had to go the other way. Couldn't get moister out of the room fast enough when the lights turned off


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## The Nine (Mar 30, 2016)

Chillin chillin said:


> Never have. He needs to exchange his air in the room. That spray is a band aid, just fix the problem


I've just been chatting with the guy now. 
He said that he topped 25 plants for 4 mains in a SOG set up and he has lost 8 main colas to bud rot, yet the other 92 so far look fantastic with 3 weeks left of 12 week flower. 
I've been helping him tweeking his room. I'm not sure he can improve on it much now from my point of view. 
It seems like one fan leaf shuts down on the big cola and turns crispy brown dead in a single day, when inspected, this seems to be the area where bud rot has established on the stem deep within the bud. 
I suggested using colloidal silver on the infected areas to try and save them. But he takes the whole stem off straight away. He said he vaguely remembers reading something about colloidal silver 'hermi-ing' them so doesn't want to chance it. 

Thanks for replying anyway


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 30, 2016)

I spent close to 4k on dehumidifiers, bought the expensive controllers added fans all over the place and the trimmers still bitched. Nowadays when I'm ready they come running


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 30, 2016)

The Nine said:


> I've just been chatting with the guy now.
> He said that he topped 25 plants for 4 mains in a SOG set up and he has lost 8 main colas to bud rot, yet the other 92 so far look fantastic with 3 weeks left of 12 week flower.
> I've been helping him tweeking his room. I'm not sure he can improve on it much now from my point of view.
> It seems like one fan leaf shuts down on the big cola and turns crispy brown dead in a single day, when inspected, this seems to be the area where bud rot has established on the stem deep within the bud.
> ...


 What's his humidity once the lights turn off?


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 30, 2016)

The Nine said:


> I've just been chatting with the guy now.
> He said that he topped 25 plants for 4 mains in a SOG set up and he has lost 8 main colas to bud rot, yet the other 92 so far look fantastic with 3 weeks left of 12 week flower.
> I've been helping him tweeking his room. I'm not sure he can improve on it much now from my point of view.
> It seems like one fan leaf shuts down on the big cola and turns crispy brown dead in a single day, when inspected, this seems to be the area where bud rot has established on the stem deep within the bud.
> ...



He may just want to cut @ 8 weeks before the rot starts to set in. They may not be as big but not tossing moldy buds and getting another cycle to 2 per year. 
It's an option


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## The Nine (Mar 30, 2016)

Chillin chillin said:


> What's his humidity once the lights turn off?


I know it was very low when the lights were on when I was round there, like around 23%. I'll ask him his readings when I speak to him and let you know. Thanks for your interest mate.


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## The Nine (Mar 30, 2016)

Chillin chillin said:


> He may just want to cut @ 8 weeks before the rot starts to set in. They may not be as big but not tossing moldy buds and getting another cycle to 2 per year.
> It's an option


The colas he has taken off with bud rot are from 8 weeks in. He has been drying and curing them to see what they are like. 
I've had some off him, and whilst a it's fairly decent in strength considering it's early, there is absolutely no aroma or taste for that matter. 
He was saying that this strain haze x northern lights doesn't get any trichones till about 6.5 weeks in and the terpenes don't really develop in size and ripeness until about 11 weeks, until then there is only a faint aroma of the N- lights with little frosting. 

It's like you say though, it must be a spike humidy when the lights go out and the room air cools down, cold air holds less water, which will unload the water on the nearest cool objects like plant stems in the form of condensation. This is fine where the stems are getting some air movement to evaporate the moisture, bud deep in the dense buds it's establishing spores and creating problems. 

I'm going to suggest he tries coating all the budsites with Vaseline after the stretch before the buds grow, on one or two plants and see if it makes a difference. It might hurt the plants though. 

Thanks again for all your replies. 

Sorry op, don't mean to hijack your thread.


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## since1991 (Mar 30, 2016)

Chillin chillin said:


> I spent close to 4k on dehumidifiers, bought the expensive controllers added fans all over the place and the trimmers still bitched. Nowadays when I'm ready they come running


What kind of dehueys were you running? Capacity?


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## since1991 (Mar 30, 2016)

The Nine said:


> The colas he has taken off with bud rot are from 8 weeks in. He has been drying and curing them to see what they are like.
> I've had some off him, and whilst a it's fairly decent in strength considering it's early, there is absolutely no aroma or taste for that matter.
> He was saying that this strain haze x northern lights doesn't get any trichones till about 6.5 weeks in and the terpenes don't really develop in size and ripeness until about 11 weeks, until then there is only a faint aroma of the N- lights with little frosting.
> 
> ...


If the strain doesnt work out....its time to change up to something that does. Ive had to do this a shilt load of times. Sometimes something just doesnt work in a particular set up.


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 30, 2016)

I do not recall the brand of dehumidifiers we used. They where big heavy and blue though
And expensive as could be also like 3k each


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## L3G4CY (Mar 31, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I've been following these forums since the overgrow days, so yes I'd say I'm forum born and raised.
> 
> I've been designing my own hydroponic formulas for the past 7 years now and have made over 18 iterations of my formula, dialing in on the perfect nutrient profile. The reason you're seeing improvement in your grows has nothing to do with the bullshit products you've been adding. You're probably just better at growing than you were when you didn't use those products.
> 
> You say it's expensive to become "really" dialed in, but my nutrients are likely some of the cheapest on the forum. Generic salts.


Hey Church, I'm on your side, I believe also that plant absorb straight inorganic molecules.. 

Your formula seems interesting, how would you compare it to the Jacks Pro formula? I'm wondering if there is a real major advantage to switch to a custom formula like yours considering all the work required to buy the raw ingredients and making the right ratio formula (weighting everything out perfectly) than try to tweak it like you did to find the perfect formula..

Have you tried Jack Pro hydro or anything similar, what differences (improvements) are you getting from your tailored formula?

Thanks,


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## churchhaze (Mar 31, 2016)

L3G4CY said:


> Hey Church, I'm on your side, I believe also that plant absorb straight inorganic molecules..
> 
> Your formula seems interesting, how would you compare it to the Jacks Pro formula? I'm wondering if there is a real major advantage to switch to a custom formula like yours considering all the work required to buy the raw ingredients and making the right ratio formula (weighting everything out perfectly) than try to tweak it like you did to find the perfect formula..
> 
> ...


Download hydrobuddy. It will help figure out how much of each salt you need to make A+B solutions.

I have a DIY thread on it here:

http://rollitup.org/t/diy-hydroponic-nutrients-in-5-minutes.894332/

There are a lot of recipes in the formula database in a stock installation of Hydrobuddy, including recipes from the University of Florida, Howard Resh, and a bunch of other sources.


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## budman111 (Mar 31, 2016)

since1991 said:


> I listen to real world scientists that travel the globe searching for the latest in studies tests and the cutting edge in horticulture.


Sounds like a big Mike blurb.


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## since1991 (Mar 31, 2016)

budman111 said:


> Sounds like a big Mike blurb.


Kelp foliar sprays are bullshit. Dont work. Placebo.


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## pinner420 (Mar 31, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Well you are wrong about amino acids. Amino acids are just another form of organic N that needs to be broken down into ammonia.


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 31, 2016)

All I gotta say is try amino acids in 1 res, foliar til week 3 flower and call me after harvest. Shoot if just started flower, spray on a few plants til week 3 (I saw 3 cause they are fat for me week 3, some can foliar up til week 5) and see the difference


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## Chillin chillin (Mar 31, 2016)

Only a major building block in protein, which they don't need I guess?


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## pinner420 (Mar 31, 2016)

Well hold the phone my bro science platform seems to have tapped out. It's cool church it's not like we're telling you to mix your bottles together in concentrated format so that mixing is easier or some other delinquent bad advice. The beautiful thing we're sharing works with all nutrient lineups. Regards....


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## pinner420 (Mar 31, 2016)

The Nine said:


> A friend of mine is having the same problems.
> His colas are huge but he has already lost 6 of his biggest due to bud rot, it seems to start at the stem within the concealed bud area and then spreads like cancer up and down the bud and if left, right along the full stem and to other plants that touch the problem buds.
> 
> Have you ever heard of anyone using colloidal silver sprayed into the infected area?
> If so, what effects did it have on the rot and on the plant as a whole?


Run silica from veg on. Add a power veg t5 with Uva and uvb... Hope that helps...


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## The Nine (Apr 1, 2016)

pinner420 said:


> Run silica from veg on. Add a power veg t5 with Uva and uvb... Hope that helps...


He has been using silica mate. He swears by it on every grow and uses it until the end of the stretch. 

Those UVA/b lights sounds like a good idea, will those kill bacteria as well as increase thc resins production? I'll tell him about that idea later thanks. 

I was speaking with my mate last night and he said he thinks he knows the issues behind the problem. 
The humidity is spiking upto around a max of 80% just before lights on. This is a bad environment for dense buds. 
On the plus side, he has used some colloidal silver on infected buds and he said it seems to halt the rot in its tracks, stopping the spread and allowing the surrounding buds to to continue in growth unaffected. So perhaps we have learned a great defence against bud rot if the grow room is a sick room by its design. 
(We live in North west England btw, so the only time is not pissing down is when it's raining lightly, hence huge humidity, especially through the winter months and even more so just before the dawn when the moisture saturation point outside is highest)

Thanks pinner420 for your consideration and response.


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## churchhaze (Apr 1, 2016)

Chillin chillin said:


> Only a major building block in protein, which they don't need I guess?


Plants produce their own amino acids.


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## WeedFreak78 (Apr 1, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Plants produce their own amino acids.


I agree with plant's producing there own hormones/acids/etc/etc. Now, I'm not fully schooled on plant biology, actually I'm not schooled at all on it..lol..just a casual seeker of knowledge, but I'm assuming there are ways to "supercharge" or at least give the plant more potential, than just "give it what it needs", which usually translates to a minor/base nute schedule. Similar to if i shot myself up with HGH. It's something i need, but in excessive amounts can give me the ability to bulk up bigger and faster than i would without it. I would have to assume there are similar biological process in plants that react in similar ways through chemical stimuli.


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## since1991 (Apr 1, 2016)

Giving plants bio stimulants besides basic nutrient mineral salts needed to survive increases plant growth...resistance to pests and diseases... improves taste flavor and ultimately harvest yields. Amino acids are produced by the plant yes....but providing certain amino acids throughout the plants life cycle means the plant spends its energy elsewhere. It acts as a cofactor to supercharge the enzymatic process. You see...a plant has a finite amount of spendable energy to assimiliate (like nitrates for example - up to 30% ). As an added bonus and like humic and fulvic acids...aminos (especially L- Glycine) chelate minerals organically in the rhizospere below the soil line and above on the leaf stomata. Regular applications of humic fulvic and amino acids in the form of organic kelp (ascophylum nodosum) and whey proteins (hydrolysate) will increase plant growth and root growth substantially and the overall vigor will be greatly improved. Numerous university and plant scientist studies have proven this all over the world. Now whether the hobby hydroponics industry markets overpriced nutrient additives to cannabis growers is beside the point. Thats pretty subjective and quite different than saying all bio stimulants do not have an affect whicb is simply not true. Growers that rely on forums to get information confuse and do not discern the difference between bio stimulant co factors and overpriced hydroponic additive marketing. Like what big greenhouses use for mineral nutrition (salt mineral fertilizer) you dont have to buy what the hobby hydroponics industry is trying to sell you. You can make your own additives that give your crops that extra punch. Big Ag most certainly uses humic/fulvic acids and kelp amongst other "additives". They certainly dont buy the hobby bottles....it would bankrupt them before one harvest with the amounts they would need.


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## Tektek (Apr 9, 2016)

Roots absorb ions (and small amounts of some very small molecules non-specifically) through protein channels. Most channels are specific for a particular nutrient ion or water. The channels are narrow, 1 ion at a time. Foliar feed, only some ions are absorbed/effective. 

Additions to root environment could change ion absorption. Maybe improve micro nute balance in plant, etc. Maybe control microorganism growth. Maybe chelation. Roots make and secrete chelates into soils. But nothing extra needed if grow is up to normal Ag specs. Some growers produce excellent tomatoes, cukes, etc, some have junk.

Plants respond to plant pheremones, terpene compounds. Some trees, attacked by insects, produce a different terpene profile that is less palatable to the insect. These terpene/pheremones can trigger the same response in nearby trees without insect damage. Why not produce them all the time? Insects develop/evolve resistance to all pesticides, natural or artificial. Some are produced to attract insect predators. Generally not a significant increase in terpene production.

Plants do not absorb amino acids. Biochemical pathways evolved to use ions as building blocks. 

"but providing certain amino acids throughout the plants life cycle means the plant spends its energy elsewhere. It acts as a cofactor to supercharge the enzymatic process." 

Hogwash. Enzymes are folded chains of amino acids. Cofactors are metal ions and complex molecules. Cofactor (biochemistry) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If anyone can, explain the chemical mechanism for a magic growth booster.


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## Chillin chillin (Apr 9, 2016)

Tektek said:


> Roots absorb ions (and small amounts of some very small molecules non-specifically) through protein channels. Most channels are specific for a particular nutrient ion or water. The channels are narrow, 1 ion at a time. Foliar feed, only some ions are absorbed/effective.
> 
> Additions to root environment could change ion absorption. Maybe improve micro nute balance in plant, etc. Maybe control microorganism growth. Maybe chelation. Roots make and secrete chelates into soils. But nothing extra needed if grow is up to normal Ag specs. Some growers produce excellent tomatoes, cukes, etc, some have junk.
> 
> ...



Here goes nothing.....
Agriculture production is a very intensive business and is related to better quality and better yield leading to better profitability.
Every Farmers dreams to achieve this goal. However to achieve this goal with advancement of technology, use of fertilizer and pesticides is not adequate. Now is the time to look at Bioenergetics and Biochemical aspects of plants, to achieve the goals of Farmerss.
Every plant like any organism needs certain components for growth over and above soil, sun, rain and air. The basic component of living cells is Proteins, with building block material, Amino Acids. Proteins are formed by sequence of Amino Acids.
Plants synthesize Amino Acids from the Primary elements, the Carbon and Oxygen obtained from air, Hydrogen from water in the soil, forming Carbon Hydrate by means of photosynthesis and combining it with the Nitrogen which the plants obtain from the soil, leading to synthesis of amino acids, by collateral metabolic pathways. Only L-Amino Acids are part of these Proteins and have metabolic activity.
The requirement of amino acids in essential quantities is well known as a means to increase yield and overall quality of crops.
The application of amino acids for foliar use is based on its requirement by plants in general and at critical stages of growth in particular. Plants absorb Amino Acids through Stomas and is proportionate to environment temperature.
Amino Acids are fundamental ingredients in the process of Protein Synthesis. About 20 important Amino Acids are involved in the process of each function. Studies have proved that Amino Acids can directly or indirectly influence the physiological activities of the plant.
Amino Acids are also supplied to plant by incorporating them into the soil. It helps in improving the microflora of the soil thereby facilitating the assimilation of nutrients.
Foliar Nutrition in the form of Protein Hydrolysate (Known as Amino Acids Liquid) and foliar spray provide readymade building blocks for Protein synthesis.


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## subgrounds (Apr 16, 2016)

lost me at "youtube"


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## Tektek (Apr 28, 2016)

638 × 479 - slideshare.net  _my links not work_
gas diffusion through stoma. water flow out to evaporate. anything absorbed must cross cell membrane to be used, same porin size as root cells. 
Mostly marketing BS. Like too much phosphorous for 50 yrs on ag soils. Now zero P fert for lawns 'cause so much locked in soil.

Plants evolved in a complex organic environment. Soil can be 5% bacteria by weight.
But some growers have big yields of primo with straight NFT in tubes. Using just mineral salts.
Or drip in media, with or without microorganisms. Using just mineral salts.
Helps if a Pro grower has a chemistry background.


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## pinner420 (Apr 28, 2016)

Here's a couple of phds you can read.


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## Tektek (Apr 30, 2016)

pinner420 said:


> Here's a couple of phds you can read.


Exactly. Not absorbed. Stuff happening in the root zone. Like hormonal signalling. Maybe sprays act hormonally. Foliars sprays wash off bentgrass into soil. Flawed study, but still has good info.

Organic veg garden soil has many of the growth boosters.
Additives including biologicals like mychorizza show more benefit for plants under stress and competitive field conditions.
Indoor grows should provide ideal environment, focus on basics like balanced NPK. That's 95%. 
And use and intake filter to keep bugs out.


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## pinner420 (Apr 30, 2016)

Tektek said:


> Exactly. Not absorbed. Stuff happening in the root zone. Like hormonal signalling. Maybe sprays act hormonally. Foliars sprays wash off bentgrass into soil. Flawed study, but still has good info.
> 
> Organic veg garden soil has many of the growth boosters.
> Additives including biologicals like mychorizza show more benefit for plants under stress and competitive field conditions.
> ...


Yep those are the basics son


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## Tektek (May 3, 2016)

pinner420 said:


> Yep those are the basics son


100% not your son. 
Is your knowledge of genetics and protein chemistry equal?


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## since1991 (May 3, 2016)

Crop farmers use all the bio stimulants and additives we do. Just not ina bottle with a retarded name and label. Dry humic acid...silicates. ..kelp...chitosan...all of it.


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## pinner420 (May 3, 2016)

I provided a study actually two. Show me.


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## Tektek (May 5, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Crop farmers use all the bio stimulants and additives we do. Just not ina bottle with a retarded name and label. Dry humic acid...silicates. ..kelp...chitosan...all of it.


I don't see any gov or university sites that promote it. For field or greenhouse.
Rhodale Institute just did mychoriza trials for very stressed field conditions where the micro biome was compromised by normal ag chem. Yield increased a little, but about break even on costs.
The golf course greens are super high value, with most benefits from additives when under drought stress. Also, micro biome is compromised by ag chem. Too $$$ to do the fairways. 

Chapter 3 - Water, Growing Media and Crop Nutrition OMAFRA FLORICULTURE
Chapter 9 - Using Plant Growth Regulators MOSTLY FOR SHORTER PLANTS


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## since1991 (May 5, 2016)

Keep looking. Crop Farmers been dry scattering humic and kelp granules for YEARS. Silicate more for soilless greenhouse production


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## boilingoil (May 5, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Keep looking. Crop Farmers been dry scattering humic and kelp granules for YEARS. Silicate more for soilless greenhouse production


 I live in the corn belt and no farmers around here spread any of that. Having farmed 200 acres for 35+ years it comes down to the bottom line.


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## since1991 (May 5, 2016)

I know soy farmers in mid michigan that do


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## boilingoil (May 5, 2016)

And they would get better results by planting a cover crop and turning it in than spending money on something mother nature produces with a little time.


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## pinner420 (May 7, 2016)

Here is a good one.


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## since1991 (May 7, 2016)

Like humic/fulvic acids amino acids chelate minerals into the plant. Some of the hardest minerals cannabis (or any c3 plant indoors) has to take up is iron and calcium. Especially using a hydroponic medium like coco coir. Humic/ fulvic acid does wonders for iron (as does edta..eddha..and dtpa) and the amino acid glycine chelates calcium....big time. Botanicare knows this. Most of thier supplements contain calcium...iron...and magnesium and these are chelated with humics and aminos. If youve ever bought some of there stuff you will notice it all smells the same. That medicine cabinet listerine type smell. Its a proprietary base that they cram into most of thier bottles in varying amounts. Dr. Lynette Morgan formulated that one.....and it works very well for cannabis.


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## greasemonkeymann (May 10, 2016)

Chillin chillin said:


> Silica
> A
> B
> Cal/mag
> ...


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## MeJuana (May 12, 2016)

Interesting it seems plausible and correct so I will get an order going for the acids. By the way I spread out cola size through plant training to avoid bud rot because I fight high humidity I thought that was the correlation with bud rot. When someone is having bud rot at 23% humidity it makes me wonder how the heck that is even possible


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## Tektek (May 14, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Like humic/fulvic acids amino acids chelate minerals into the plant. Some of the hardest minerals cannabis (or any c3 plant indoors) has to take up is iron and calcium. Especially using a hydroponic medium like coco coir. Humic/ fulvic acid does wonders for iron (as does edta..eddha..and dtpa) and the amino acid glycine chelates calcium....big time. Botanicare knows this. Most of thier supplements contain calcium...iron...and magnesium and these are chelated with humics and aminos. If youve ever bought some of there stuff you will notice it all smells the same. That medicine cabinet listerine type smell. Its a proprietary base that they cram into most of thier bottles in varying amounts. Dr. Lynette Morgan formulated that one.....and it works very well for cannabis.


Chelation is valuable. Chelated micro nutes have different availability. Many different types. Micro nute ratios need adjusting. Retail pre-mix SHOULD have the right ratios.


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## churchhaze (May 15, 2016)

Iron DTPA. Magnesium and calcium do not need to be chelated. Iron is the only element that really needs it, and that's handled by using Iron DTPA.

Amino acid is just another form of N that hasn't been broken down to ammonia yet. It's N.


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## pinner420 (May 15, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Iron DTPA. Magnesium and calcium do not need to be chelated. Iron is the only element that really needs it, and that's handled by using Iron DTPA.
> 
> Amino acid is just another form of N that hasn't been broken down to ammonia yet. It's N.


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## churchhaze (May 15, 2016)

pinner420 said:


>


Plants are producers.


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## since1991 (May 15, 2016)

If your having calcium uptake problems...especially using coco coir as your medium using left turning amino acids like glycine with calcium nitrate will help calcium get absorbed quicker . If your humiditt is high try lowering it. It helps. Humic acid helps iron get absorbed and is especially useful for orgqnic growers wanting a natural mineral chelation. Chealtors like dtpa....eddha...and edta contain trace amounts of cyanide. Its used it the manufacturing process.


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## boilingoil (May 15, 2016)

since1991 said:


> If your having calcium uptake problems...especially using coco coir as your medium using left turning amino acids like glycine with calcium nitrate will help calcium get absorbed quicker . If your humiditt is high try lowering it. It helps. Humic acid helps iron get absorbed and is especially useful for orgqnic growers wanting a natural mineral chelation. Chealtors like dtpa....eddha...and edta contain trace amounts of cyanide. Its used it the manufacturing process.


Why the big deal with coir and calcium ? I've been growing in coir for 7+ years and never experienced a cal deficiency once the cation has been filled . Running RO, my cal-mag input is only 2ml per gallon, then what ever is in my base nutrients.


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## since1991 (May 15, 2016)

Oh yeah well....lol. Its not a big deal really. But some growers do all kinds of wierd shit with coco coir. Epsecially newish growers. My cousin cant figure coir out for some reason. And several other growers i know. Prettt damn simple to me. But at one time about 10 years ago it gave me a headache. The coir back then was inconsistent from batch to batch in my experience.


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## boilingoil (May 15, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Oh yeah well....lol. Its not a big deal really. But some growers do all kinds of wierd shit with coco coir. Epsecially newish growers. My cousin cant figure coir out for some reason. And several other growers i know. Prettt damn simple to me. But at one time about 10 years ago it gave me a headache. The coir back then was inconsistent from batch to batch in my experience.


 I'll attest to the poor quality of some of the coir I first started with.
And I'm seeing a lot more problem lately with growers using to much cal in their coir.


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## pinner420 (May 17, 2016)

*Enzymatic Activity and Temperature*

With the obvious inputs of lighting, gas exchange, and irrigation well under control, the grower’s efforts of staying above the compensation point and showing resilience to pestilence in the vegetative phase is primarily dictated by temperature. We know that the simple effects of temperature extremes will inhibit the absorption of mineral elements and water, but did you know that the most important factor is enzymatic activity? I’m not talking about extracellular digestive enzymes you add to your reservoir to eat up old roots. I’m talking about the intracellular enzymes that are naturally 

Enzymes are the key to all living systems. They are complex protein substances made of long, linear chains of amino acids that fold around to produce a unique three-dimensional product. Every biochemical action that takes place in nature is caused by a specific enzyme, which obviously makes them vital to plant growth. Enzymes work by lowering the activation energy for a reaction, thus dramatically decreasing the rate of energy (sugar) consumption needed to spark the same reactions without the enzyme. High temperature in the indoor garden or reservoir will denature the enzyme, that is, unfold and inactivate the three-dimensional structure of the protein. The three-dimensional shape is very important, with any destruction of the shape reducing the enzymes efficacy by 95%.
Heath Robinson


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## Tektek (Jun 1, 2016)

Good thread. We're making science. I'm learning. Thanks.
I guess organic additives can be valuable in some situations for pot.
And, some pretty extreme soils are farmed, so additives can be cost effective there too.


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