# Ebb and Flow - Hydroton by itslef?



## roots3003 (Aug 14, 2011)

This is my first hydro setup, it's ebb and flow. I have a 2'X4' tray that Ifilled with hydroton. It seems like it wants to float when I flood the tray, so I am thinking if I just put plants straight into it, the roots won't be able to take hold. This tray will be used for flowering, the tray that will be in veg. will be a drip system with rockwool cubes. 

When I mve them to veg, should I just keep them in the RW cubes, and those will be heavy enough to not float up with the hydroton? Or would it work just as well to not even use the RW, just get like 4 or 6" square pots and fill them with hydroton, and put them in the ebb and flow like that? What will work the best and get me the best yield?

If anyone can direct me to some pics of a nice ebb and flow setup, just so I can see how people are running theirs, that would also be very helpful. Thanks.


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## hydrohomer (Aug 14, 2011)

Flooding too high? Can you control the upper fill level?


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## roots3003 (Aug 14, 2011)

I only have one extension on the flod tube, and it came with 2. So if I take that one off, it will only flood like an inch or 2 high.


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## panhead (Aug 14, 2011)

Filling a flood table with any medium such as hydroton creates problems,if your dead set on filling the flood table with medium then do not use hydroton,it floats all over the fukin place & will float right out of the table if you flood to the top like myself & others,mold is also an issue.

You can use other products such as hydro rock which is made out of clay like hydroton but looks like stone chips & will not float.

Pump flow effects flood height just as much as drain capability,back flow through the pump only comes into play after pump action has stopped.

When you speak of yeild issues two things effect yeild in hydro more than anything else,the 1st is a no brainer,its how big the plant is before flowering,the other is root mass,if plants are grown in a table full of medium such as you want to do the roots will grow past the net pot & flourish.

Some growers use net pots filled with medium & just put the pots in empty tables,this stops most root growth,when roots grow past the pot the light will prune the roots until the canopy thickens enough to block light,by the time that happens root growth is at a crawl,this is why some choose to fill the table with a medium,plants that grow directly in medium with no net pot are hard to stabilize.

I use net pots with empty tables,then i put a plastic top over the table to block light from the root mass,this allows roots to thrive,having a table with no medium also allows the plants to be watered up to every hour on the hour with no over watering.

Place clones in net pots,fill net pot with medium,cover top of flood table with white panda plastic & secure to the table using spring clips, like potato chip bag clips.
Then trace the bottom of a net pot with a marker so you can cut accurate holes for the net pots containing plants.

After you cut all your holes insert the net pots with plants,set timer to flood once an hour for 15 minutes & your good to go,plus you stopped several problems before they started.

Medium filled tables are highly suseptable to mold & powdery mildew as well as increased room humidity,the plastic lid stops that dead,root prune from light & air hitting the roots is also stopped cold,also overall cleanliness of the table interior is increased 10 fold as no dead veg matter gets in the table.

Its the best flood & drain method ive found.


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## roots3003 (Aug 14, 2011)

Thanks man, very helpful. I am not dead set on filling the table with medium, especially if it is not the best method. I do like the way the hyrdroton look though,and since I already bought it I will try to put it to some use for now..anyways, based on your feedback, here is my new plan. Take all the hydroton out. Buy either 4 or 6" net pots(the square regular pots would work just as good right if I put more holes in the bottom??), put my clones that were grown in rockwool cubes into the pots and fill pots with hydroton, sit the pots in the table, and cover with the plastic. 

Does this sound like a better idea, pretty close to how you are talking about? 

3 more questions...
1) By filling the net/square pots with hydroton, isn't that enought to block out the light from hitting the roots? Or do they grow out the bottom and that is the reason for the plastic? What size pots do you use by the way for veg. and flower?
2) Also, humidity is next to nothing where I live. I used to live in MI myself, I know that's not the case there. So you are saying having a table filled with the hydroton will increase humidity?
3) Do I have the right idea by starting my clones/seeds in 1" rockwool cubes, then moving up to 4 or 6" cubes in veg., befor repotting them into the net pots in flowering? My veg. room would be using a drip system, with the cubes just sitting in the table. If the roots start coming through the bottom of the cubes, is that going to be a problem? I could always use the plastic over this table as well...

Sorry for all the questions, but i'm a noob to hydro, and when I get a chance to soak up some kno how from anyone who has experience, I will take it.


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## panhead (Aug 14, 2011)

Hey bud,never be sorry for asking questions,helping new growers solve problems is the reason i use this forum ,there are other hydro growers who feel the same too.

Anyhow yes,your on the right track ,the plan you posted sounds very much like how i grow,i will explain my grow better if you need but lets address your questions 1st.

You asked about humidity issues with a table full of medium like hydroton,think of it like this,every time you flood the medium gets soaked,this is what keeps the roots & plant alive,but after the flood the surface area of the medium starts evaporating & eventualy the interior of the medium as well,this moisture is 1st released up into the dense growth of the canopy which increases the chance for powdery mildew all over the entire plant as well as the dreaded grey mold inside the budd,if you get either powdery mildew or bud rott bad enough the whole grow is in jeapordy ,using a cover on the table instead of a medium eleminates any chance of increasing the risk of either issue.

Then the moisture goes into the ambient room air incteasing overall humidity,if your lucky enough to have naturally low rh then its best to keep it low,a level of 20% in bud is better than having a rh thats 60% in bud.

In hydroponics roots are king,plants feed from the root tip,the more root tips & fine hairs comming off the roots the more the plant increases its ability to feed,we want as many roots as possible,roots need dark to grow & any light stops growth cold.

I use 5 inch round net pots but any net pot would work,i like the 5's beacuse they are easy to handle & for my method the small pot size allows me to improvise further,you can use square or round but i wouldnt go any smaller than a 5 inch,this way the heart of the root mass has something fairly large to adhere to creating more stability.

When you fill the net pot with medium & put the plant in the medium roots will start growing into the medium,this locks the plant in place,if the outside of the pot is not blocked from light the roots that are growing within the net pot will automatically prune the growth,stopping any roots from stretching outside the net pot,pruned roots limit the plants ability to feed,as soon as one little root tip hits the light its pruned,you want to avoid this if possible.

You asked about the rockwool cubes,imo you should get away from using any rockwool at all,its an outdated material that suffers several drawbacks like ph & over watering issues,cube compression is another drawback,i stopped using rockwool in favor of sponge plugs,i use root riot brand & they work just as well as rockwool, without any of the negative issues that go with rockwool.

When you transplant you shouldnt use huge cubes,you want as much stability as possible,the larger the cube or sponge the less stability,i get the most stability using the 1 inch plugs,letting the roots stretch out an inch or so before putting them in the net pot,then i make sure to keep the top of the cube very near the top of the pot,when you bury the cube too deep the chance of stem rott increases.

Just remember that root mass means bud mass,do everything you can to block light from hitting roots at all phases of the grow,especially in veg stage because veg stage is when most of the rapid root growth takes place,if i were you i would use flood & drain for veg as well as bud & cover both tables,this way when you put the freshly vegged plants into your bud table your plants will allready have a root mass that extends 12 to 18 inches out of the net pot,root growth slows greatly durring flowering phase.

The rockwool cubes just sitting in the table with no medium will not be harmed at all from roots growing out the bottom of the cube,if it were my grow i would only jump up one block size or no additional blocks at all,a 1 inch block is fine as long as its going into a medium filled net pot when the roots are an inch long, then cover the table before roots overgrow the new cube,roots will be light pruned in the cubes the same as net pots as soon as they see the light & air.

You dont have to transplant either,cover the table,cut snug holes,transplant the 1 inch cubes when roots stick out an inch or longer directly into a 5 inch net pot filled with hydroton,keep rockwool cube near the top of the pot,about an inch down from the top,then insert the net pots in the pre cut holes in the cover,set timer to flood once every hour for 15 minutes,leave flood times at that setting until your in heavy bud,in heavy bud increase flood times to twice an hour with 15 minute flood times durring lights on leaving flood times at one 15 minute flood durring lights out.

The idea of covering the table is not new,most manufacturers sell hard plastic lids for the exact same purpose,when you enclose the table it brings flood & drain more in line with the aeroponic method,the enclosed enviroment retains a fog of nutrient laden moisture accessable to the root tips to feed from,i will never go back to open top flood tables this has worked so well for me.

If you need help installing the plastic i can talk ya through it,installing it isnt that hard its attaching it securely around the sides thats important,i can set a glass of pop on mine without any sag its secured so well using the clips.

This method also takes another issue out of play which is flood times,set it up & its a go.


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## billy4479 (Aug 14, 2011)

so i use a 2x4 foot table full of hydroton works fine for me ...just dont flood very high just a inch or two works great and roots can get huge ............or you can cram you plants into little pots and have little roots like some people


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## panhead (Aug 14, 2011)

billy4479 said:


> so i use a 2x4 foot table full of hydroton works fine for me ...just dont flood very high just a inch or two works great and roots can get huge ............or you can cram you plants into little pots and have little roots like some people


I ran my 1st 2x4 tables that way too & it worked for me too,when i jumped up to running 8 seperate 4x8 tables the humidity got out of hand so i had to flip methods,now im damm glad i did,much cleaner,faster growth & larger yeilds,flooding once or twice daily cant compete with 24 feedings every day,the difference in growth isnt small either.


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## roots3003 (Aug 14, 2011)

panhead, I appreciate all the detailed answers and suggestions. I already see what you mean about cleanup. I took the hydroton out of the tray earlier, to prepare to get the net pots and fill them instead of the entire tray. Holy shit man, what a pain in the ass getting them all out without spilling. So yes, I will go with just filling the pots. Saves money this way too, now I won't need to bey anymore hydr. I have rapid rooters from when I did my clones. How about I just clone into those, and go directly from those to the 5 or 6" net pots when the roots are growing out the bottom? Seems alot simpler and cheaper. And I won't have to keep using the rockwool. I haven't started making the veg. table yet. Any particular reason you think ebb and flow would be better there than drip? I didn't think of it until you mentioned it, but I will definitly use some panda plastic over the veg. table as well. You just stretch it really tight and clip it arund the edges?


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## Phillip J Fry (Aug 14, 2011)

I also plan to go from rapid rooter to 5-6" pots in a flood table for veg. Then into 5 gallon bucket DWC/ebb for flower.


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## panhead (Aug 15, 2011)

roots3003 said:


> panhead, I appreciate all the detailed answers and suggestions. I already see what you mean about cleanup. I took the hydroton out of the tray earlier, to prepare to get the net pots and fill them instead of the entire tray. Holy shit man, what a pain in the ass getting them all out without spilling. So yes, I will go with just filling the pots. Saves money this way too, now I won't need to bey anymore hydr. I have rapid rooters from when I did my clones. How about I just clone into those, and go directly from those to the 5 or 6" net pots when the roots are growing out the bottom? Seems alot simpler and cheaper. And I won't have to keep using the rockwool. I haven't started making the veg. table yet. Any particular reason you think ebb and flow would be better there than drip? I didn't think of it until you mentioned it, but I will definitly use some panda plastic over the veg. table as well. You just stretch it really tight and clip it arund the edges?


If i went overboard on info its not because i doubt your understanding its just hard to judge peoples diy ability via internet,i figgured it would be easy to understand.

I go from cloning in the root riot plugs directly to the net pots like you propose & it works excellent,my plugs are the same as yours just different names so you'll be fine going straight from clone to pot.

The reasons i reccomended going flood & drain all the way in veg & bud is mainly to simplify things,repetition builds skill,when all tables & phases are on the same type system routine maintainance becomes a snap as does trouble shooting.

Ive got a space in my room thats well light from light thrown from main tables thats too small for another flood table,i threw a dwc system in that area & when i work on the system or refill the rez i allways have to stop & think to make sure im not f-ing up,the flood tables are so familiar im like a robot on them,having one type system makes things more efficient.

Also drip systems are more complicated with more things to go wrong,plugged drip lines ect,plus with one standardized system throughout all equipment is interchangable at a moments notice,also flood & drain is simply superior to drip systems.

Im excited to see you get your tables going,if your in michigan i'd be glad to help with clones or gear,i have a room full of excess hydro gear i help people get set up with,then once they get the grow off the ground they return the equipment or buy new for me,if we are close enough where i can help let me know,im a state certified caregiver so no legal issues.


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## drgreentm (Aug 15, 2011)

ya the rock in the tray worked for me for a while but i hated it so much, the cleanup was stupid especially if your tray has allot of little gulleys for drainage, i would have to sit there picking the rocks from the cracks with a butter knife lol. i switched to 6x6x7 square pots and they worked great for low veg clones, i since moved to using a ebb and grow bucket system and love it but i was running 4 2x4 trays and it was good too, here is some pics, use the pots for sure it will save you so much time and effort in the end.


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## weednublet (Aug 15, 2011)

Not to hijack your thread or anything mate, but Panhead I've got a question.

If not Hydroton or Rockwool, what should I replace them with, respectively? Specific brand names would be cherished, as well as alternatives if they're not available.


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## roots3003 (Aug 15, 2011)

Panhead, you didn't go overboard. Admittedly, I am a noob to hydro, so you can't go overboard with me, I appreciate all the help. 

Man, I am getting really stoked to get this first hydro grow underway. Just got all the equiptment to build my second E & F tray. I don't think I will use the aquarium silicone this time, those rubber gromets should keep it water tight. Now I just need those girls in the flower room to hurry up!!

I see your point about the repitition thing and interchangable parts, and that makes sense so E & F it is. I am not in MI anymore, out here in AZ now. My dad still lives on the West side by Grand Rapids, and has his own little setup. Who knows though, I may end up back in MI in the near future thanks to issues with the ex leaving me up shit creek without a paddle. If I do make it back, we could definitly use help. That's really cool how you help people get started like that. 

Dr. Greentm, thanks for the pics and comments. Very nice setup, I think that's pretty much what I am shooting for. Any particular reason you chose black pots over white? 

I suppose I will work on the new table now, maybe I will take some pics later just for shits and giggles.


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## panhead (Aug 15, 2011)

weednublet said:


> Not to hijack your thread or anything mate, but Panhead I've got a question.
> 
> If not Hydroton or Rockwool, what should I replace them with, respectively? Specific brand names would be cherished, as well as alternatives if they're not available.


Hi,the alternatives to using rockwool for starting clones or as a medium are any type of sponge plugs,you will know when you see & feel the products,the sponge plugs are just that,when you inspect & touch them they are made from regular sponge material only black in color,make sure they are 100% sponge as some look alikes are filled with starter mix soil.

The brand i use is called ROOT RIOT,another brand mentioned by the op is RAPID ROOTER,i am sure there other brands as well,if you cant find any then you can substitute using regular household sponges or car washing sponges cut into blocks of the size you need,i use regular sponge material too in another aspect of my grow.

The replacement materials for hydroton are also varied,the name brand i use is called HYDRO ROCK,its made from clay just like hydroton & looks like driveway or road gravel,its random shapes & sizes that lock together nicely & will not float beacuse its much heavier than hydroton ,be forewarned that it is still a dirty product that needs washing just like hydroton.

There is an even better product than what i use & i brain fart when i think of the name, its a lava rock type medium & its very clean unlike clay mediums,its very porus like lava rock & is heavy enough it wont float,my grow shop gave me a 5lb free sample bag & its awesome,i allready have so much hydroton & hydro rock that its not praticle for me to switch or i would in a heart beat,a google search should turn up the name, just remember this product isnt made from clay.


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## drgreentm (Aug 15, 2011)

roots3003 said:


> Dr. Greentm, thanks for the pics and comments. Very nice setup, I think that's pretty much what I am shooting for. Any particular reason you chose black pots over white?


 nope no particular reason just what the hydro store had in stock, i have seen them white as well and sure they would work all the same.


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## roots3003 (Aug 15, 2011)

Panhead, are you talking about Pumice? I mix that with my soil for my houseplants.


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## roots3003 (Aug 15, 2011)

Shit! My 20 gal. reservoirs only flood like 2 inches up the 7" pots I just got before the pump starts sucking air. What size does it take to flood the right amount up these pots in a 2'X4' tray?


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## panhead (Aug 15, 2011)

roots3003 said:


> Panhead, are you talking about Pumice? I mix that with my soil for my houseplants.


The product is kinda like pumice only harder & denser,it closely resembles the rock type material that is in the burner well of some propane fired bbq grills.

I have to go to my local hydro shop as soon as a probe i ordered comes in,i will get the name of the product while im there & post it up,it should be in a day or two that my probe comes in.


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## panhead (Aug 15, 2011)

roots3003 said:


> Shit! My 20 gal. reservoirs only flood like 2 inches up the 7" pots I just got before the pump starts sucking air. What size does it take to flood the right amount up these pots in a 2'X4' tray?


Somethings not right,what are you using for a rez ?

I use small tables to veg for 2 weeks so i have several small 2ft x 4ft tables like yours going,on them i use 22 gallon rubbermaid "totes" for the rez,i can only fill the rez with exactly 20 gallons without them leaking from the factory handels so our water amount & table sizes are equal.

My tables will fill right even with the top,maybe a half inch to 3/4 of an inch from overflowing,this water level is with 32 seperate 5 inch pots in the table.

For your flood level to be so low somethings out of place,im thinking of a few things,is your rez a shallow rez ? Is your pump as flat on the bottom of the rez as it can be ? I lay my pumps on their sides & flat on the bottom.

Another thing im thinking is how much water is actually in your rez,is your rez full to the rim ?

At a 2 inch flood level your about 5 to 7 gallons short of a 4 inch flood,in reality a 2 inch flood will work but i prefer a deep soaking flood.


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## roots3003 (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm using a 20 gal. res. from the hydro shop. Here's the link to it. http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/customkititems.asp?kc=HRAA020K&eq=
The pump is sitting as flat as can be, but there's still about 3 to 5 gallons of water in the res that needs to be there to keep the pump submerged. Yeah it is full to the rim. But I have only 5 pots in it right now. You think that is the problem??


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## panhead (Aug 16, 2011)

I kinda thought you were running a factory rez,i dont care for hydro manufacturer rez's for several reasons,the main reason is i prefer a rez to be taller than in is wide,taller rez's allow for more liquid to be pumped,factory rez's are also extremely unfairly priced.

You can get a 45 gallon rubbermaid action packer with wheels & a lid for $20 at home depot & smaller models even cheaper,heavy duty rez's can be bought from quality farm & fleet stores or tsc hardware stores much cheaper too,farm & fleet has rez's made for farmers that are built better & way cheaper too from 20 gallon up to 2,000 gallons.

The rez you have is part of the problem due to the large footprint,the larger footprint means more unuseable water,the small number of pots is another issue,if you keep your current rez you should cover the top with white plastic to stop evaporation & block light & heat.

The rez's for our 4 x 8 tables are burried under the bldgs floor,it keeps the water a constant 68 degrees & blocks all light too.

If you cant change things around just place a few bricks in the table to take up space & raise water level,you could also use any extra hydroton & pots to take up space,tables your size hold 32 of the 5 inch pots & a full flood is better than a partial flood.


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## roots3003 (Aug 16, 2011)

So I returned the 20 and got a 40 gal. Wish I would have read you're last post before I did that, but I think this will work. I tried using a "heavy duty" rubbermaid 20 gal. tote before I even bought that first res., and it bowed so much from the water when it was filled I didn't feel comfortable using it. I didn't see that action packer at my home depot, it sounds like that might have worked. I do still need a second res. though. Do you have any links to any of the res. at those farm and fleet or hardware stores?
I will definitly cover the res. Your underground setup is a great idea. You using like a pole barn or garage or something? Time to go do some work on it...


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## roots3003 (Aug 17, 2011)

1 out of 2 tables is up and running good. 6"X6"x7" pots are being flooded about 4 inches up, which fills the tray to about 1-2 inches from the top. Close but just right i'm hoping. I'm going to be searching for a cheaper alternative for my res. for the 2nd table..I think when I have more time this weekend I will search those sites you mentioned Panhead. I have a couple detail questions for you or anyone if anyone is still interested. For example, after the table floods and drains, a very small aount of water remains in the tray. Should I prop one end up to make the water run down to the draind, if not I will get algea won't I?


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## drgreentm (Aug 18, 2011)

roots3003 said:


> 1 out of 2 tables is up and running good. 6"X6"x7" pots are being flooded about 4 inches up, which fills the tray to about 1-2 inches from the top. Close but just right i'm hoping. I'm going to be searching for a cheaper alternative for my res. for the 2nd table..I think when I have more time this weekend I will search those sites you mentioned Panhead. I have a couple detail questions for you or anyone if anyone is still interested. For example, after the table floods and drains, a very small aount of water remains in the tray. Should I prop one end up to make the water run down to the draind, if not I will get algea won't I?


 mine always have a tat bit of water when drained and yes it does cause algae until the canopy is thick enough to let less light in the tray. you could also cut the legs on one side of the table slightly to allow more water to drain if it becomes a issue.


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## panhead (Aug 18, 2011)

roots3003 said:


> So I returned the 20 and got a 40 gal. Wish I would have read you're last post before I did that, but I think this will work. I tried using a "heavy duty" rubbermaid 20 gal. tote before I even bought that first res., and it bowed so much from the water when it was filled I didn't feel comfortable using it. I didn't see that action packer at my home depot, it sounds like that might have worked. I do still need a second res. though. Do you have any links to any of the res. at those farm and fleet or hardware stores?
> I will definitly cover the res. Your underground setup is a great idea. You using like a pole barn or garage or something? Time to go do some work on it...


No links for quality farm and fleet

The tote you bought that bowed out is exactly what i refered to as an action packer,its just another brand name,many growers use those for the rez & bowing is an easy condition to correct.

When you set up the tote for rez duty the return hose can be ran through a small hole drilled in the top of the lid,the pump hose also goes through the top of the lid,then you use a drywall screw in all 4 corners to secure the lid to the unit,this will stop all bowing & no water will get out,once the lids screwed on tight the unit is very sturdy.

If you want access to the inner area holding water without taking the lid off its a simple task,take a sharp razor knife & cut a 3 sided slot leaving the 4th side connected,on the front side of the cut area install a knob for a drawer,this gives you an access door fo ph,add water,work on pumps ect.

The water laying in the bottom is not good if your only flooding once or twice a day,if your flooding 24 times a day like my tables i prefer the water to stay in the flutes of the tray,the hourly floods keep water from sagnating as well as keeping alge from forming,with a covered table the water in the flutes helps create the nutrient fog that feeds the fine root hairs 24/7.

Covered table with hourly floods ,yes the water is a benifit.

Standard table with net pots or hydroton filled with seldom flooding,no the standing water is not a benifit.

My rez's are all underground for geothermal temp control,i own rental properties as well as some commercial bldgs that we rent out,my grow is in one of the commercial bldgs we own,the warehouse was impossible to rent out since the closing of a general motors factory nearby so i put it to use for the med grow.

As long as people own their home putting a rez under their basement floor is still a simple pimple,when you sell the home ya just fill in the hole with fill & repour some concrete,simple as pie.


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## roots3003 (Aug 18, 2011)

I will have to see if a different HD has a 40 gallon tote like that and rig up the lid like you explained. Thanks. I think I understand what you are saying about cutting an access hole in the lid..do you happen to have a pic of your setup so I can see. Then again, if it is underground, that might not be so easy to see or take a pic. I would love to bury mine, but i'm worming on the second floor of my house. 

So you start your flooding once the lights come on and do it 24 times each day?
4" flooded up the pot is enough right? 
When I have my clones in rapid rooters and thay are in the same tray as my others in veg., how can I fllod the tray without completely submerging the rooters? 
Here's another question, and i realize this isn't the right forum for this, but sonce you guys are knowledgable and helpful, why not. I am doing a soil grow right now, but if this relates to hydro that is even better. In my soil grow, i'm using Fox Farms grow big, big bloom, and tiger bloom. On the feeding schedule, it indicates to keep feeding throughout the entire grow. Almost everything I read online says to flush for the last 2 weeks or so. What should I do? And by flushing, that just means only water with plain water right? Are those 3 bottles of Fox Farm good one's to stick with when I move to hydro? 

When doing Ebb and Flow, you always want your drain line to bigger than your flood line correct? For instance, use 3/4 inlet, 1" drain. Not 3/4 for both. This makes sense to me, but after I finished the 2nd table last night, I went over to the first one that was set up for me and noticed some things. Both the fittings were 3/4. When i ran the pumps, it looked to me as if the water level was starting to rise above the overflow fitting. Also. instead of the flood and drain fittings being righ next to each other in the lowest part like they are on my 2nd tray, one fitting was in the low spot and another was drilled up on a higher spot about a foot away. So I changed the drain to 1", moved in to be in the low spot next to the flod fitting, and plugged up the old hole where it was. I'm writing all this because I was curious if this table was setup wrong, or if I was just overthinking it and being a perfectionist ;P ?? And yes I am going to call the guy a dumbass if it turns out you are supposed to be using a bigger size for the drain haha.


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## panhead (Aug 18, 2011)

There are many ways to set a flood table up properly,for instance i use a 3/4 inch hose from the pump to the table,i install the inlet tube one one side of the table in the well area.

The drain/return hose i drill a hole in the oposite end of the table & use a 1/2 inch hose for the return line,the drain assemble is in the well area as well,all tables are not the same so set up is different in many.

The main goal for set up is to have water comming into the table faster than it drains out to acquire desired flood height,some people use larger pumps that push more volume faster than the drian works on gravity feed but i was taught by my mentor that is not the best method.

Larger pumps create more heat to warm up the water,smaller pumps run longer & it takes nearly the entire 15 minute flood time to reach optimun flood but its still a better method in theory,the smaller pump obviously pumps less water & the fact that it takes the entire 15 minute flood cycle to reach optimum flood level means the pump housing is assured to be submerged under water,protecting from overheating & burning out the pump,also the smaller pumps dont get nowhere near as hot.

In the main grow we use 50 gallon plastic barrels,holes are dug,rock salt is in the bottom of the hole to salt the soil making tree root growth impossible,the barrels are put in the holes leaving 6 inches of barrel above floor level to keep contaimanents out,the holes are backfilled with sand & rock salt to within a foot from the floor & new concrete poured around the barrel sides in a sloping angle to also help keep contaimenets out.

A sump pump is put in the bottom of each barrel for dumping the waste water & connected to pvc plumbing lines,all connections in the lines are done with rubber clamp connectors known as "oateys" vs glue & plastic connectors making drain lines flexible,the lines comming from the sump pump are connected directly to spickets outside the bldg where we pump old nutrient water to the lawn of the bldg,we used to pump directly into the waste/grey water lines of the bldg but we changed it to recycle the water & nutes instead,the bldg we use is a shithole but the lawns kick ass .

This makes draining the barrels easy as pie,we also added fresh water lines that come within 3 ft of the barrel,then a washing machine hose hangs from the plumbing into the barrell,all barels have lids that clamp on & have a slot cut out so we can remove the lids & get around the plumbing lines,changing all the 
drums & refilling takes less than an hour.

This rez system is for the 4 ft x 8 ft tables we flower in.
 
The pumps we use for the big tables are one size up from what we use on the 2 ft x 4 ft veg tables with the 22 gallon rez,i think the rating is for a 40 gallon rez,the larger pump hose vs smaller drain hose is what regulates voulme in the table.

The FOX FARM nutrients your using are one of the worst nutes on the market right behind ADVANCED NUTRIENTS & the latter being the absolute worst,fox farms nutes are extremely over priced,thier 3 part grow system is lacking in much needed micro nutrients requiring the use of expensive additives,plus fox farm nutes leave the rez a complete mess,they are prone to turning into a scum in systems that are constantly airaited through mass feedings like mine or from air stones,i refuse to use them.

I use general hydroponic 3 part system,aside from dyna gro nutes its the most complete 3 part system on the market,its also much cheaper than other brands,the mixture is nearly ph perfect so you dont use much ph control liquids & the nutes leave the rez free of scum,in late flower i use a bloom enhncer from botanicare called hydroplex,i chose this enhancer over others because it has micronutes as well as the increased p&k values,i reduce the amount of the 3 main gh nutes to make up for the addition of the hydroplex,once you find the max ppm of the strain your growing its best not to go past the max by adding enhancers without making room for them.

Do not follow the fox farms feed chart then flush,when you flush the act of drowning the plant puts the plant in a mild stress,its better to cautiously feed the plants every 2 weeks instead of the constant feeding,no nute burn,no bad soil,no stressed plants from nutr burn & drowning them translates into bigger buds,i grew in soil over 20 years before switching to hydro.

Also flushing & not feeding anymore 2 weeks prior to harvest is an unneeded & assanine pratice,created by nutrient manufacturers who told growers to overfeed the plants to start with,the act of flushing does nothing to improve taste,looks,smell,resin build up ect,its a wives tale with no science behind it & should not be done,unless the grower over fertilized & tainted the soil & thats the only real reason to do something that stresses the plant.

No need to buy expensive hydroponic nutrients for soil,most any off the shelf powder fertilizer will work just as well ,as long as it contains a full range of micro nutes,peters brand,jacks classic,vigaro & even miracle grow will work great,just be sure to read directions then mix the powder at 1/4 of the reccomended dose or less, then feed every 2 weeks & no more.

You can also use the nutrients from your rez when you change rez water,only then fertilize with the used nute water once weekly,this is how my soil plants are fed with great results.


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## roots3003 (Aug 18, 2011)

Man it sounds like you have one hell of a setup. I miss those nice green lawns back in the glove state...sounds like you have even better green than the lawns though ;P Your res. system sounds very impressive. The only part I didn't understand was this:
"Do not follow the fox farms feed chart then flush,when you flush the act of drowning the plant puts the plant in a mild stress,its better to cautiously feed the plants every 2 weeks instead of the constant feeding,no nute burn,no bad soil,no stressed plants from nutr burn & drowning them translates into bigger buds,i grew in soil over 20 years before switching to hydro." 
I might just be buzzed, but can you reword that? I appreciate it. I need to know because it's almost that time...
Also, maybe I don't know what flushing is. I though it was just watering the plant with plain water? Is there more to it than that? If not, why would that stress a plant to water it with plain water? I completly undestand what you are saying about the nutes and stuff though. So it kinda sucks ass that i have a few more bottles of Fox Farms to use. I will be sure to use them for the soil grow and get a better brand for the hydro. 

So you start your flooding once the lights come on and do it 24 times each day?
4" flooded up the pot is enough right? 
When I have my clones in rapid rooters and thay are in the same tray as my others in veg., how can I flood the tray without completely submerging the rooters? 
To use the panda film over the tray, do you just put your pots in, drape a piece over them that is slightly larger than the table, and cut holes where you traced the pot sizes, then attach it? Or is there a better way to do it?


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## panhead (Aug 18, 2011)

I forgot to answer two of your questions,i strive to give thorough answers so heres the additional info.

Flood times,since i use no real amounts of medium i flood once every hour,lights on one 15 minute flood per hour,lights off one 15 minute flood per hour,w total of 24 floods per 24 hour period,i keep this schedule all the way up to heavy bud stage which is week 3 of bud stage in my grows.

In heavy bud i increase flood times to two 15 minute floods every hour at half hour intervals durring lights on,this gives me 24 floods durring lights on period in 12/12 lighting schedule,durring lights off of this phase i leave the feedings to the one 15 minute per hour schedule.

In heavy bud i flood 36 times in a 24 hour period,the increased flood times enhanced my yeilds about 10% over feeding once an hour in heavy bud.

The clones in your veg tray wont be hurt from soaked sponges,the sponges wont drown the clone but the nutes in the table might burn the clone or slow growth,its something you need to watch then decide.

You can keep rooted clones in a brownie pan or square cake pan,put an inch of hydroton in the bottom & bury the sponge,put about 1/8 inch of low ppm water in the pan & check daily,you can do this for several weeks if you have too.


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## roots3003 (Aug 22, 2011)

Any advice on how to setup the res. with water and nutes for the first time? Keep in mind I know nothing, ZERO about hydro. All I really know is that here in the desert the water is pretty bad. We get our drinking water from water machines, and I have been using that to water my soil grow. Do I need to do that for this ebb and flow setup or can I just use tap water?


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## panhead (Aug 23, 2011)

If your water isnt fit for drinking & bathing then its surely not fit for hydroponics,your going to need ro or bottled water.

How you set up the rez is up to you just keep the water from going over the table & start from there doing dry runs before plants see the table.

Nutes are dependant on plant size.


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## roots3003 (Aug 27, 2011)

Our water here in the desert tests well enough for us to drink and bath in. But i'm still leary about using it. We've always got our drinking water from the RO machines at the store. I don't want an RO installed under my sink, the one's i've seen are cheap as hell and usually leak and they waste waaay too much water. Not to mention, we have hard water and i'm sure that would clog filters, etc. more often and cost more $$. Right now i'm hauling jugs to the store to get RO water..pain in the ass. What's the best way to test the water out of the tap and how do I know if it will work ok, or as well as RO?


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## DobermanGuy (Aug 10, 2014)

buy a tds (total dissolved solids) meter. They're cheap. My tap is crap at 450ppm so i use a small RO filter set to crush it down to 20 ppm.

*RESURRECTED*


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## mitch9er (Sep 1, 2015)

panhead said:


> No links for quality farm and fleet
> 
> The tote you bought that bowed out is exactly what i refered to as an action packer,its just another brand name,many growers use those for the rez & bowing is an easy condition to correct.
> 
> ...


hi Panhead, great methods! Do you use low rise 3 3/4" depth trays or the regular 7 inch depth? Does the difference in the volume of gas at root zone between the 2 tray choices matter?


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