# anyone know how to make cannabis infused soda?



## greenghost420 (Mar 27, 2013)

looking for a decent recipe to make some cannabis sodas. i could make cannabis ice cream and throw some into some rootbeer for a cannabis float...any thoughts? thanks, now roll it up...


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## rippn13 (Apr 1, 2013)

This was posted on another site: 

The trick to cannasoda is simple. I've made several and have had success with each batch. The problem is it takes time and if you are willing to be patient, the reward far exceeds any alcohol-based soda.
Decarb your material and soak it in food grade glycerin for 60 days or more, rolling or shaking for 5 minutes every day. Lightly heat mixture (NEVER more than 170 deg F!!!), allow to cool, and strain. You can even add natural flavorings such as cinnamon or vanilla during the heating stage. More fragile natural flavors like lavender should be cold-infused during the 60 day period to preserve their integrity.
You now have a sugar substitute that works well for hard candies, sweets, ice cream, soda, etc.
Be creative and if you get the chance, you really should try a lavender soda!

I have enjoyed the mmj sodas and am gonna try this myself.


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## greenghost420 (Apr 1, 2013)

thats more of a glycerin tinc recipe, no description of using the glycerin mixed with carbonated water. i was gonna do this with corn syrup and see how it works. i guess i should be asking for homemade soda syrup recipes. like black cherry, orange, grape, etc. thanks for taking the time to post. i should also look up substituting glycerin for sugar ratios too.


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## rippn13 (Apr 1, 2013)

Sorry for the confusion. I was thinking this would be good for making a simple syrup. Then take the syrup and make cola. You can find how to make cola from google. Here's one example http://www.wikihow.com/Make-OpenCola. Most flavors in cola are derived from flavored oils made into a syrup. If you can get the thc oil into a syrup then you can make cola.

Another way is to take the tincture and add club soda to it. Just a thought. Never tried it. You could also infuse some flavors into it.


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## greenghost420 (Apr 1, 2013)

yea i was thinking of getting some orange extract and adding to the glycerin/corn syrup or whatever.. i was also thinking just take some tinc and throw it in any already made soda.


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## Bilbo Baggins (Apr 1, 2013)

excellent recipes guys--taking notes here. I was under the impression that THC would most readily attach itself to the Lipids ( Fat ) in any substance, and thus had ruled out any such enterprises as brewing Marijuana wine for example, but the above suggestions about using glycerine etc as an ingredient makes so many other possibilities within reach, ty for info guys.


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## HolyHerb (Apr 5, 2013)

I ran a dispensary that carried kushtown medicated sodas. We had it tested and it tested at .01% thc. The problem according to them was it has an extremely short shelf life due to the carbonation. Apperntly glycerin doesn't do well with sodas. I would suggest a different type of infusion. Now weather they were just making a shoddy product or if this is fact I'm not sure. Just thought I'd share my exp with cannabis sodas.


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## greenghost420 (Apr 5, 2013)

thanks for sharing!


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## greenghost420 (Apr 5, 2013)

.01% sounds weak as shit...


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## HolyHerb (Apr 5, 2013)

It was. Believe me though there were people who got the placebo effect and would buy them by the cases. When we told them what happend they got a look on they're face like someone kicked they're puppy. We offered them a full discount for what they purchased. Lesson learned we tested all edibles after that.


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## greenghost420 (Apr 6, 2013)

i guess you only have to add a drop of tinc to any soda and call it cannabis soda. lol i made some canna tootsie rolls last night, came out good! lil soft cause i fucked the recipe up. i forgot to knead it so im mixing like this needs more moisture and added too much shit(syrup). nice shit!


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## Zxvc2 (Apr 8, 2013)

This is what i think get some cannabis liquid extract, and add it in to the "Soda stream" water and carbonate it and just add the syrup


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## greenghost420 (Apr 8, 2013)

shake well! contents may settle and float when settling. lol first sip is all tinc...sounds good till a better method comes along lol


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## VladFromOG (Apr 9, 2013)

The big problem with trying to make a soda is getting a wax to dissolve in water without a ton of alcohol or bromination. The dispensaries havent really figured it out yet, they try to use glycerin but this is a poor solvent and using too much makes a sudsy soda, so everything Ive seen offered is pretty weak and low potency.

So Im going to let you in on a secret, on how to make high potency water tinctures, in this case soda pop. First, make some hash oil. We wont go into the how here, but it needs to be BHO, CO2, or steam distilled. Now, let us say we want to make one soda: Take one oral dose of your oil (differs for everyone, but I find 30-50mg to be great, but 100-200 mg is more painkilling), and dissolve it in an equal measure of d-limonene. limonene is a great solvent, and a 50/50 mix of hard wax oil and limonene is free flowing and thin, and is a small enough amount to ingest. limonene is GRAS, a natural component of marijuana and oranges, and tastes like oranges, so dont have any reservations about drinking it, its great. Now, take your orange smelling tablespoon or so of oil/limonene mix, throw it in a glass, add an equal amount of ethanol ( ~1tbsp - makes it no more alcoholic than sprite is, all citrus flavored sodas have ethanol in them to make the orange flavor oils dissolve in water) shot of simple syrup (sugar water), then fill with chilled club soda. You now have a glass of clear, dyeless and preservative free, 100% natural, medicated orange soda.

This process can be scaled up of course, and you can use up to 5 grams of wax in a glass before you have to use enough limonene that it tastes bad to dissolve it. Limonene is widely available online, check Ama and Ebs, but be sure to get food grade. Shouldnt cost more than $10/quart, even in non bulk amounts.

Dont like orange soda? you can make unflavored extract by complexing the wax in cyclodextrins - get some beta-hydroxylpropylcyclodextrin. Sounds complicated, but is a cheap sugar, about $5 a gram in small amounts. While your oil is still being extracted, after 90% of the solvent (butane or co2) has evaped off, add twice the volume in the evaporate dish of cyclodextrin, then cure/purge as you normally would,just do it for twice as long as normal. The cyclodextrin has a lipophillic interior and hydrophillic interior, and will encapsulate the oil and render it dissolveable in water. This has the added effect of making your oil more bioavailable and more ready to cross the BBB. Mix twice the amount of this treated oil as you would with untreated into your glass of club soda/ sugar/ flavor (if you choose to add flavor)

The latter technique is too complicated for most, but the limonene is easy and quick and I highly recommend it (makes a tasty orange soda too). If you want a potent soda, theres no better way to go.


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## Figong (Apr 9, 2013)

VladFromOG said:


> The big problem with trying to make a soda is getting a lipid to dissolve in water without alcohol or bromination. The dispensaries havent really figured it out yet, they try to use glycerin but this is a poor solvent and using too much makes a sudsy soda, so everything Ive seen offered is pretty weak and low potency.
> 
> So Im going to let you in on a secret, on how to make high potency water tinctures, in this case soda pop. First, make some hash oil. We wont go into the how here, but it needs to be BHO, CO2, or steam distilled. Now, let us say we want to make one soda: Take one oral dose of your oil (differs for everyone, but I find 30-50mg to be great, but 100-200 mg is more painkilling), and dissolve it in an equal measure of d-limonene. limonene is a great solvent, and a 50/50 mix of hard wax oil and limonene is free flowing and thin, and is a small enough amount to ingest. limonene is GRAS, a natural component of marijuana and oranges, and tastes like oranges, so dont have any reservations about drinking it, its great. Now, take your orange smelling tablespoon or so of oil/limonene mix, throw it in a glass, add a shot of simple syrup (sugar water), then fill with chilled club soda. You now have a glass of clear, dyeless and preservative free, 100% natural, medicated orange soda.
> 
> ...


...

Awesome use of science to further the drink field in terms of cannabis - am quite impressed, +rep and it definitely fits the model for use of cyclodextrins, especially with kneading and 2 3sub factorial design constraints, depending on what else is being done / could be done.. which gives me a few other ideas for this. May have to play with it in the near future as time allows, and if/as I get time - will definitely contribute my findings to the thread.


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## VladFromOG (Apr 9, 2013)

Oh my yes cyclodextrins are fun, not just in terms of making lipids water soluable, but in increasing bioavailabilty. For a reall kicker, isolate out the THC in your concreate, isomerize to THC-Acetate, then complex and inssufflate/IM (never IV complexed THC, burns like hell. THC must be esterfied for IV, as the CIA learned in the eighties lol). THC-Acetate is several times more potent that THC, and when its 100% more bioavailable bc its complexed, you can imagine... just have some CBD or other antipsychotic on hand, both pure THC and THC-Acetate will induce the weirdest jungle type hallucinations and the body load is really hot and uncomfortable.

Complexing things with cyclodextrins is more of an art than a science, though - the exact ratios of complexing varies from molecule to molecule, and hash oil is comprised of many different compounds, so I cant really give anything more exact than "add twice the volume and purge twice as long", so theres always some extra cyclodextrin that isnt complexed in the solution. Luckily thats not a problem as its mildly sweet and goes well with soda. Just be sure to purge/cure your complexed concentrate for a really long time - some of the butane/co2 will be complexed as well and takes longer than normal to evap off due to encapsulation.

Thanks for the rep, it was my first ^.^


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## Figong (Apr 9, 2013)

VladFromOG said:


> Oh my yes cyclodextrins are fun, not just in terms of making lipids water soluable, but in increasing bioavailabilty. For a reall kicker, isolate out the THC in your concreate, isomerize to THC-Acetate, then complex and inssufflate/IM (never IV complexed THC, burns like hell. THC must be esterfied for IV, as the CIA learned in the eighties lol). THC-Acetate is several times more potent that THC, and when its 100% more bioavailable bc its complexed, you can imagine... just have some CBD or other antipsychotic on hand, both pure THC and THC-Acetate will induce the weirdest jungle type hallucinations and the body load is really hot and uncomfortable.
> 
> Complexing things with cyclodextrins is more of an art than a science, though - the exact ratios of complexing varies from molecule to molecule, and hash oil is comprised of many different compounds, so I cant really give anything more exact than "add twice the volume and purge twice as long", so theres always some extra cyclodextrin that isnt complexed in the solution. Luckily thats not a problem as its mildly sweet and goes well with soda. Just be sure to purge/cure your complexed concentrate for a really long time - some of the butane/co2 will be complexed as well and takes longer than normal to evap off due to encapsulation.
> 
> Thanks for the rep, it was my first ^.^


Quite welcome, I see you have a heavy chemistry background and will fit in perfectly on RIU. Welcome to the boards!


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## greenghost420 (Apr 9, 2013)

i must graciously THANK YOU for this enlightening recipe. not easy sharing secrets but it sure is fun! i will make that orange soda as soon as i get some limonene. also thanks for putting up 2 recipes in one post! i must spread rep around before repping you again lol i just make some tootsies and caramels that came out good.  but no cannabis chaser til now. have you made this recipe for yourself? it also sounds like that 2nd recipe can be added to other recipes with no fat/alcohol. new shit *cannabinoid water* the real vitamin water!


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## Figong (Apr 9, 2013)

greenghost420 said:


> i must graciously THANK YOU for this enlightening recipe. not easy sharing secrets but it sure is fun! i will make that orange soda as soon as i get some limonene. also thanks for putting up 2 recipes in one post! i must spread rep around before repping you again lol i just make some tootsies and caramels that came out good.  but no cannabis chaser til now. have you made this recipe for yourself? it also sounds like that 2nd recipe can be added to other recipes with no fat/alcohol. new shit *cannabinoid water* the real vitamin water!


Agreed on this, he's in definite need of more rep - this is something brand new to the boards, and as of now.. is not posted on any other that I can see, in any semi-close/sane fashion as well. RIU on the bleeding edge as usual!


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## greenghost420 (Apr 9, 2013)

ok first question: d-limonene comes in 95% and 98.5%, what do you recommend or does it make no difference? 95% is food grade and 98 is referred to as high purity. which would make a better infusion? thanks again!

also, do i need ethanol or would everclear be sufficient?


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## VladFromOG (Apr 9, 2013)

You're quite welcome, Greg. Sharing secrets is my specialty - my own and others'.

Use either purity of limonene, as long as its food grade. The % that isnt limonene will be pure water. Buy a big thing of it if you can, its cheap, and is a wonderful household cleaner, instantly dissolves any gunk or grime, I use it for cleaning more than bleach or oxyclean combined. Also works better than ISO or even acetone as a bong cleaner - doesnt even need to be warmed up, just a quick cold splash in your piece and the nasty burned resin will melt away, no need for even sand or salt as an abrasive.

Similarly, any ethanol source will do, as long as its clear vodka or grain alcohol, you will just have to use more as it will have a percentage of water diluting it. As you are dissolving your concentrate in limonene first this isnt a problem, though if you try to dissolve concntrates in vodka by itself it wont work well, as thc dissolves so poorly into ethanol as it is, any further dilution will just frustrate your efforts.

You may wish to order some flavoring as well, even just an orange flavor from watsons will help round out the single citrus note provided by the limonene into something more akin to fruit.

I have tried these recipes, yes, and many variations of it. There are lots of uses for an aqueous pot solution, you see: better, less greasy baked goods that can withstand a proper baking temp (the complexing raises the vaporization and combustion temp), soups and stews, the complexed concentrate can be used in saline eyedrops for better treatment of glaucoma without the peripheral effects (like getting high), and of course all manner of beverages.

No, Figong, I havent shared this recipe on the other boards, but I am lazily compiling it along with other info on medibles and will eventually (likely years from now lol) release it on the related forums - as I have done with my Vapor Volumes. I've been around just trolling and compiling info since the OG debacle (Free Marc Emery!!!), and I came out to publish it on as many platforms as I could, something I felt necessary to clear up some of the BS the profiteers have been pushing onto the medical/concentrate community. 

That said, if its all the same to everyone else, I was planning on sticking around here for a bit and sticking my nose into conversations every now and again, bc this is the most comprehensive pot community, and unlike similar forums, is both dedicated to pot (not psychoactives in general), and isnt sponsored by a single headshop vendor who will delete your posts for pointing out that nails dont actually vape at more than 50% efficiency, bc said vendor only sells nails to vaporize... I never try to be rude, mind you, but I dont tolerate BS and mysticism as a replacement for science, esp in what is a scientific (medical) field, and as a lot of people are inured to the mysticism they can respond with religious fervor when someone points out a common misconception that they have...


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## Nizza (Apr 9, 2013)

lol funny question here... so you clean your bowl with the limonene, putting your piece in a glass jar, submerging it, and letting it sit. Now you take water and flavor syrup and make a drink from it. how bad do you think it would be? and would it screw you up? and what would happen if u were to cook it


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## greenghost420 (Apr 9, 2013)

ive seen people using iso to wash their bowl and reclaim some nice gold. i imagine if that gold was mixed in your drink you would be wrecked.but i think you should do the iso reclaim then mix oil with limonene and proceed to your soda making. in my opinion.please call me Terrance,nice to meet you!


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## Figong (Apr 9, 2013)

VladFromOG said:


> -snip-
> 
> No, Figong, I havent shared this recipe on the other boards, but I am lazily compiling it along with other info on medibles and will eventually (likely years from now lol) release it on the related forums - as I have done with my Vapor Volumes. I've been around just trolling and compiling info since the OG debacle (Free Marc Emery!!!), and I came out to publish it on as many platforms as I could, something I felt necessary to clear up some of the BS the profiteers have been pushing onto the medical/concentrate community.
> 
> That said, if its all the same to everyone else, I was planning on sticking around here for a bit and sticking my nose into conversations every now and again, bc this is the most comprehensive pot community, and unlike similar forums, is both dedicated to pot (not psychoactives in general), and isnt sponsored by a single headshop vendor who will delete your posts for pointing out that nails dont actually vape at more than 50% efficiency, bc said vendor only sells nails to vaporize... I never try to be rude, mind you, but I dont tolerate BS and mysticism as a replacement for science, esp in what is a scientific (medical) field, and as a lot of people are inured to the mysticism they can respond with religious fervor when someone points out a common misconception that they have...


Again, you'll fit right in and are welcome here. There's more than a few who take no BS, and will call it as they see it - without question. If you get attacked, by all means lay it down and fire back. If they attack you while they're new, mail me and I'll drop a few bombs myself as I have no tolerance whatsoever for new users who did nothing at all getting attacked. The only time I will not defend views is in the religion or politics threads - those are free-for-alls, and that's a well-known going in. If you decide to chime in on those, hold on tight. hahahaha


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## VladFromOG (Apr 9, 2013)

Well that depends, Nizza. If the piece in question is a concentrate bowl or a globe vaporizer, then the condensate inside will have no combustion taint, then yes, its perfectly safe to drink a small amount of. If it is from a nail rig, or skillet, or just regular bowl, anything that exposes your pot to a temp higher than its combustion temp, then carcinogenic compounds will be formed and you should just discard it. Its possible to remove these compounds, but it is an inefficient process and is much more trouble than its worth.

If you want to save your pipe condensate, then you can evap the limonene off with a warm bath to covert it back to hash oil, or use the limonene tincture as previously described. Dont try to cook with limonene tincture, it has a low flashpoint and cant withstand direct heat. If you're looking to make medibles without making cannabutter, you can do the following 
to your concentrate (hash/oil/reclaimed condensate):

If you've got budder, just sprinkle some into your recipe. Its really that easy. If you dont have 85%+ pure powdered THC laying around, you can use regular chunky earwax, bubble, foam, and shatters thusly:
If you are making sweets (baked goods, custards, pancakes, even cinnamon toast), take your concentrate and add an equal volume of powdered sugar, then chop with a putty knife or similar until the concentrate is evenly mixed. This will form tiny grains that are not sticky and can be used like sugar in all recipes. It will be half the sweetness of regular sugar, but as you only need a small amount per recipe, you can use your recipe like normal, just swapping out a teaspoon of sugar for the hash sugar.
If you are making savory items (breads, soups, stews, casseroles), take your concentrate and add an equal volume of starch, then chop with a putty knife or similar until the concentrate is evenly mixed. This will form tiny grains that are not sticky and can be used like flour/starch in all recipes.
A note about these methods: this is not the same as complexing with cyclodextrins, and doesnt make your concentrate water soluble. It just makes it have the physical properties necessary to disperse in your dish evenly without the need for a carrier solvent like butter, oil, or glycerin. Also, temperature restrictions are the same as with cannabutter - too much or too direct a heat can combust the cannabinoids, so you must bake at less than 350 and any stovetop cooking must be done at half power. If you are making a soup or stew, this can be alleviated by cooking your soup as normal until it is done, then removing from heat and throwing in your dose of concentrate/starch. Using the cannabis sugar for creme brulee, for example, where the sugar is being broiled or torched, would destroy most of the actives.

There's another two recipes/concepts for you, that you wont find published anywhere else


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## Figong (Apr 9, 2013)

Another beautiful post, am glad to see some of the founding members of Overgrow appearing here too  

*You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to VladFromOG again.
*


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## VladFromOG (Apr 9, 2013)

Thanks, Figong, I think I'm going to like it here; I just noticed that SubCool is a mod, he's an old OGer himself, from my neck of the woods, and of a similar philosophy, so if y'all like him we'll likely get along just fine


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## Figong (Apr 9, 2013)

VladFromOG said:


> Thanks, Figong, I think I'm going to like it here; I just noticed that SubCool is a mod, he's an old OGer himself, from my neck of the woods, and of a similar philosophy, so if y'all like him we'll likely get along just fine


Yup, that he is.. I happen to be using one of his oldschool soil recipes for my grafts, with a heavy mod of myco and an insane amount of chelates to try to keep tox to a minimum and really open availability of nutes due to the nature of the graft itself.


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## Nizza (Apr 9, 2013)

Figong said:


> Another beautiful post, am glad to see some of the founding members of Overgrow appearing here too
> 
> *You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to VladFromOG again.
> *


don't worry I added some for ya'


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## Figong (Apr 9, 2013)

Nizza said:


> don't worry I added some for ya'


Thanks boss =)


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## Nizza (Apr 9, 2013)

vlad i really appreciate your reply and learned a lot from what you said
but i don't think I really asked the question right, and you still i think answered my question though
I was trying to say is there a way to eat the resin from weed being smoked, through some process? I know resin in a pipe is ~20%thc which is pretty high and didn't know if there was some sort of way out there to just ingest it, because smoking it really really sucks... but you say if it 

what you said though was "*

If it is from a nail rig, or skillet, or just regular bowl, anything that exposes your pot to a temp higher than its combustion temp, then carcinogenic compounds will be formed and you should just discard it. Its possible to remove these compounds, but it is an inefficient process and is much more trouble than its worth."​


*So your saying the butane +whatever your burning with it will cause yucky compounds to form and it will be more worth it to just throw out? (which is what i always do)


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## greenghost420 (Apr 9, 2013)

mmmmmmm hash sugarrrrrrrrrr yummy dip my cannafried dough in that after topping with cannabudder, also make my fried dough from hash flour


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## greenghost420 (Apr 9, 2013)

so if you made bho from resin you would also extract benzene for example?


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## VladFromOG (Apr 9, 2013)

Nizza, it has nothing to do with the butane: every chemical has two properties called the evaporation temp and combustion temp. The evaporation temp is the temperature required for the chemical to turn into a gas(vapor), and the combustion temp is the temperature at which the chemical breaks down into different chemicals. If the evap temp is less than the combustion temp, you can vaporize a chemical. Now, cannabinoids are all a little different but they evaporate at roughly 300 degrees and break down at roughly 500. Past that 500 degree point the cannabinoids break down into completely non-psychoactive compounds, including benzene, a potent carcinogen. Now, a lighters flame is 15000 degrees, as is a glowing hot nail/hotknife etc. The only reason you get any psychoactivity at all from these methods is because before it all burns up into carcinogens and bad, a small amount of cannabinoids get vaped ahead of the flame by the hot gases surrounding the nail before your concentrate drips and sizzles and burns on the nail/knife itself, or by the flame/ember heating up the air and the hot air vaporizing some of the unburned pot in your bowl/joint.

What all this means is that the black resin recovered from a pipe, while it may approach 20% cannabinoids (for comparion, the shittiest hand rubbed hash is about that, as is medium grade medical), it will also be about 20% carcinogens, and the rest just carbon. Now, pot may cure gliomas and other carcinomas, but benzene is an incredibly potent mutagen, and the cannabinoids youre ingesting with the resin will not cancel out the carcinogenic effect. Prolly wouldnt hurt you once or twice, similar compounds are found in grilled meat, but doing it even semi regularly can lead to oral and esophageal cancers.

Terrance, careful there, it is possible to OD on concentrates. Like, really. I came close when I vaped 1g in a gravity bong topped with a concentrate bowl. And this wasnt some trophy nail rip like they do on youtube "OMG 1g dab" where they take a huge dab that all burns and runs down the side, this was a ~90% efficient vaporizing method. THC is paradoxically cardioprotective whereas other CB1 active cannabinoids will cause strokes, palpatations, and arrest in large amounts, but man that esoteric knowledge is cold comfort when you find yourself in the Jungle hallucinating wildly.... I'd expect 10g of 80%+ purity concentrate to be lethal orally. Course thats a thousand doses, so this is still a very safe compound: all Im saying is its easy to misjudge how much you've put in of the powdered concentrate, so go easy 

Yes, benzene is a tiny molecule and will dissolve in butane. It dissolves more poorly in xylene, so you can dissolve the oil in xylene, add water, which wont mix into the xylene, shake, which helps the benzene and carbon migrate to the water, then evap the xylene, then repeat the process about ten more times. Eventually you'll get all the dark crud out, but keep repeating the process past that point bc that only indicates the free carbon is gone, there may still be benzene in the resin. Really an involved process that isnt worth it. If you want to reclaim your resin, switch to a concentrate/wand bowl, you can just scrape them out and vape the condensate without further processing, as there was no combustion involved at any point of the vaping process.

On a different note: apparantly RIU uses a third party spam block which blocks TOR exit nodes. They dont currently block all, but once they do, I shall be unable to access the board, so if I disappear, dont fret, Ill be back every now and again as I can, to release as much as I can.


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## greenghost420 (Apr 9, 2013)

i have thought of that so i have saved your posts. this is knowledge i cant buy and love every word you type. lol much respect to you and hopefully to riu...


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## curious2garden (Apr 9, 2013)

Figong said:


> Agreed on this, he's in definite need of more rep - this is something brand new to the boards, and as of now.. is not posted on any other that I can see, in any semi-close/sane fashion as well. RIU on the bleeding edge as usual!


+rep taken care of. I'll see if I can swing a real heavy hitter this way


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## Figong (Apr 9, 2013)

curious2garden said:


> +rep taken care of. I'll see if I can swing a real heavy hitter this way


Thank ya much as well, greatly appreciated and am glad to see brand new info that's not total theory presented in terms of processes like Vlad has done. If you haven't read it all the way through, definitely check it out


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## New Age United (Apr 9, 2013)

Wow Vlad, def hope you stick around, I was completely ignorant to this idea before I read this post, lots of good info +rep 
I know I'm not a heavy hitter but I'm sure this guy will get his rep up real quick


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## cannabineer (Apr 10, 2013)

VladFromOG said:


> Nizza, it has nothing to do with the butane: every chemical has two properties called the evaporation temp and combustion temp. The evaporation temp is the temperature required for the chemical to turn into a gas(vapor), and the combustion temp is the temperature at which the chemical breaks down into different chemicals. If the evap temp is less than the combustion temp, you can vaporize a chemical.


Do you mean flash point, or do you mean autoignition temperature?


> Now, cannabinoids are all a little different but they evaporate at roughly 300 degrees and break down at roughly 500. Past that 500 degree point the cannabinoids break down into completely non-psychoactive compounds, including benzene, a potent carcinogen.


 1) the amounts of benzene formed are tiny. 2) Benzene is a known carcinogen, but it isn't potent. Low levels are much safer than the industrial-level exposures that revealed its toxicity.


> Now, a lighters flame is 15000 degrees, ]


 Those are plasma torch temperatures! 1000 degrees is more typical of an object soaked in a butane flame.


> as is a glowing hot nail/hotknife etc. The only reason you get any psychoactivity at all from these methods is because before it all burns up into carcinogens


 Carcinogens? Link? Specify?


> and bad, a small amount of cannabinoids get vaped ahead of the flame by the hot gases surrounding the nail before your concentrate drips and sizzles and burns on the nail/knife itself, or by the flame/ember heating up the air and the hot air vaporizing some of the unburned pot in your bowl/joint.
> 
> What all this means is that the black resin recovered from a pipe, while it may approach 20% cannabinoids (for comparion, the shittiest hand rubbed hash is about that, as is medium grade medical), it will also be about 20% carcinogens,


Data? Link? I question this.


> and the rest just carbon.


 No. Carbon cannot be washed out with solvents; hemp tar can.


> Now, pot may cure gliomas and other carcinomas, but benzene is an incredibly potent mutagen,


Incredibly potent? It's in the middle somewhere. If you must use these spectacular qualifiers, back them with data. This sounds like classic organic-dude chemophobia. Jmo.


> and the cannabinoids youre ingesting with the resin will not cancel out the carcinogenic effect. Prolly wouldnt hurt you once or twice, similar compounds are found in grilled meat, but doing it even semi regularly can lead to oral and esophageal cancers.


 The compounds in grilled meat are nitrosamines. These are distinct from the PAH considered present in tar.


> Terrance, careful there, it is possible to OD on concentrates. Like, really. I came close when I vaped 1g in a gravity bong topped with a concentrate bowl. And this wasnt some trophy nail rip like they do on youtube "OMG 1g dab" where they take a huge dab that all burns and runs down the side, this was a ~90% efficient vaporizing method. THC is paradoxically cardioprotective whereas other CB1 active cannabinoids will cause strokes, palpatations, and arrest in large amounts, but man that esoteric knowledge is cold comfort when you find yourself in the Jungle hallucinating wildly.... I'd expect 10g of 80%+ purity concentrate to be lethal orally. Course thats a thousand doses, so this is still a very safe compound: all Im saying is its easy to misjudge how much you've put in of the powdered concentrate, so go easy
> 
> Yes, benzene is a tiny molecule and will dissolve in butane. It dissolves more poorly in xylene,


 No. Benzene is miscible in, and extractible into, any of the common organic solvents. Its polarity is close to that of the cannabinoids of interest.


> so you can dissolve the oil in xylene, add water, which wont mix into the xylene, shake, which helps the benzene and carbon migrate to the water, then evap the xylene, then repeat the process about ten more times. Eventually you'll get all the dark crud out, but keep repeating the process past that point bc that only indicates the free carbon is gone, there may still be benzene in the resin. Really an involved process that isnt worth it. If you want to reclaim your resin, switch to a concentrate/wand bowl, you can just scrape them out and vape the condensate without further processing, as there was no combustion involved at any point of the vaping process.
> 
> On a different note: apparantly RIU uses a third party spam block which blocks TOR exit nodes. They dont currently block all, but once they do, I shall be unable to access the board, so if I disappear, dont fret, Ill be back every now and again as I can, to release as much as I can.


Some wisdom here operationally, but I am sorry to say that the biochemistry is not well or correctly presented. cn


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## greenghost420 (Apr 10, 2013)

i just used benzene as an example. i know this is a bunch more you dont want in your concentrates, dont drink it man! lol


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## VladFromOG (Apr 10, 2013)

Canabineer, most of your questions seem to come from a lack of careful reading. Normally, I'd be happy to spend all day enlightening you, but since youve taken an antagonistic tone, I'll just give you one response right now to this one post, and I would encourage you to reread with more care, and the understanding that I didnt use superfluous words.



> *Do you mean flash point, or do you mean autoignition temperature? *


No, I mean flash point - "The *flash point* of a volatile material is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air" - wiki. flash point is important to consider when adding a solvent into a hot mix, if it reaches its flash point, it will evap off before getting mixed in, all in a poof. Which is why you cant cook as easily with a limonene tincture.



> *1) the amounts of benzene formed are tiny. 2) Benzene is a known carcinogen, but it isn't potent. Low levels are much safer than the industrial-level exposures that revealed its toxicity. *


They are hardly tiny, benzene is a basic carbon compound and most of whats generated is carbon soot, of which benzene is a large component. And as I stated, once or twice likely wouldnt hurt you, but repeated exposure to soot (like in those who grill meat for every meal or in chimney sweeps) has been proven to cause carcinomas.



> *Those are plasma torch temperatures! 1000 degrees is more typical of an object soaked in a butane flame.**Those are plasma torch temperatures! 1000 degrees is more typical of an object soaked in a butane flame.*


That temp was given by the bic website as the average temp of their lighters flame. But lets say you're right and the way too low 1000 degree is the right temp (heres a hint as to why thats low: a flame is plasma, which means the temp has to be high enough to ionize the air and form a plasma jet for you to have a visible flame, and air ionizes at above 1000 degrees), in any event 1000 degrees is far beyong the temp of combustion for the cannabinoids, which is the point I was making



> *Carcinogens? Link? Specify?*


I did specify - things exposed to heats higher than their combustion temp break down into non psychoactive substances as well as carbon soot, including benzene (and carbon monoxide, and a whole spectrum of others) 



> *Data? Link? I question this**Data? Link? I question *


You should, that was just a rough estimate, based on the amount of benzene in soot avg, and the amount of cannabinoid oils Ive been able to recover from my experiments with resin. I absolutely encourage you to find more specific values, and I will replace them. I know a cheap lab if you want to have your resin tested for the cause of furthering science.



> *No. Carbon cannot be washed out with solvents; hemp tar can*.


Carbon is absolutely soluble in water, it is highly soluble in fact. Which is why I said itd migrate to the water in a xylene/water purification, leaving the cannabinoids in the xylene.



> *Incredibly potent? It's in the middle somewhere. If you must use these spectacular qualifiers, back them with data. This sounds like classic organic-dude chemophobia. Jmo.*


lol I've never been accused of being chemophobic before. What part of my detailed explanations about isomerizations, isolations, and novel chemistry fun gave that impression?  Sigh personal attacks - the resort of those who dont have a leg to argue on. Well, lets say I used too much hyperbole, and that you are correct, its only in the middle of carcinogenesis - why the problem? All I did was say it was fine exposing yourself once or twice, but that repeated prolonged exposure would increase the rate of carcinomas... something that is correct in either case.



> *The compounds in grilled meat are nitrosamines. These are distinct from the PAH considered present in tar.*


Yes, grilled meat has nitrosamines, form from the nitrogen compounds. But that doesnt mean its the only chemicals present. In fact there is an elevated amount of benzene, bc thats just whats formed when you burn carbonaceous compounds, which is why that comparison is relevant* -* long term exposure to elevated levels of benzene elevates the incidence of cancer. Which is the point I was trying to make, and I must confess confusion as to why you would try so hard to repudiate it



> *No. Benzene is miscible in, and extractible into, any of the common organic solvents. Its polarity is close to that of the cannabinoids of interest. *


Yes, it is. Which why I said it dissolves in butane and more poorly in xylene. It dissolves more efficiently in water than in xylene, and less efficiently than cannabinoids do in xylene, which is why if you to the xylene/water purification, after a lot of work (too much work to be worth it), eventually the benzene will migrate completely out. Which I already explained - again, read more carefully, make sure you understand the concepts involved, and then decide if its wrong or not, not the other way round lol.



> *Some wisdom here operationally, but I am sorry to say that the biochemistry is not well or correctly presented. cn *


You say its not correctly presented, well, you are more than welcome to do a "correct presentation" writeup and post it. I would love to see someone who has more time write up these concepts in their absolute minutia. However, based on your questions, its not so much that I got the chemistry wrong, its just that you didnt read or comprehend all the chemistry.

So yeah, since you clearly didnt bother reading this carefully, as most of your questions are based on either skipping portions or not understanding them, and since you've already decided Im wrong and will likely just keep arguing, trying to take down my logic with semantics, all without offering any actual data which might counter my claims, I'm afraid this is the last time I will be responding to you in this thread. If you have some non antagonistic questions and are just trying to learn, I will be happy to help if I can in another thread, but if insist upon continuing the internet style of arguing ("No, youre wrong! I only skimmed what you wrote, have neither data nor logic to back up my claims, but have decided you're wrong either way!), I'll just block you so I wont be bothered with it. I am, after all, only here to share to neat tricks I've learned. I don't care enough to push them upon people who don't want to listen.

Speaking of which, for everyone else: I'm compilling my medible recipes, and some other neat tricks not seen anywhere else. I think you'll like them; Ill start a new thread when I do.

Thanks for all the rep everyone, I really appreciate it. If you've liked my posts you should check out the thread in my sig. Its a long read, but is well organized and in chapters, so you can skip to the parts that interest you; its an overview of concentrates and all the major vaping options on the market, as well as plenty of tricks and tips, all presented in the same, methodical style. Give it a look, it dispells a lot of the myths around concentrates and their tools, and will give you a clear understanding of the concepts as a whole.


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## greenghost420 (Apr 10, 2013)

thanks for the posts and i cant wait to skim that thread in your sig not to mention future threads. thanks! do you go into that gravity bong vap hit you did? lol i need 90% efficiency...pufffff pass....


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## cannabineer (Apr 10, 2013)

VladFromOG said:


> Canabineer, most of your questions seem to come from a lack of careful reading. Normally, I'd be happy to spend all day enlightening you, but since youve taken an antagonistic tone, I'll just give you one response right now to this one post, and I would encourage you to reread with more care, and the understanding that I didnt use superfluous words.
> 
> 
> No, I mean flash point - "The *flash point* of a volatile material is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air" - wiki. flash point is important to consider when adding a solvent into a hot mix, if it reaches its flash point, it will evap off before getting mixed in, all in a poof. Which is why you cant cook as easily with a limonene tincture.
> ...


I actually did read your post word by word, and I maintain that it is filled with misinformation (outright disinformation now that you've declared your unwillingness to accept dissent). Thus I asked for how you used "combustion point" which is not a recognized item of chemists' or engineers' terminology. "Flash point" is not related to a substance's temperature of decomposition. Consider methane: flash point is minus188 degrees C ... autoignition temperature 595 degrees C ... decomposition temp reported as "above 700 degrees C". If you cannot be enticed away from using ambiguous, imprecise terms, accuracy will necessarily elude you. 
I must mildly observe that if carbon were indeed soluble in water, charcoal would run in the rain, and activated carbon filtration of water would not be the important technology that it is. 
I could say more about your other _faux pas_, but _cui bono?_ 

_ceterum censeo_ If you wish to arrogate unto yourself the title of teacher, you have a basic duty to have your facts right. cn


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## sunni (Apr 10, 2013)

hey , im not sure but i think badkat or akgrown would be good candidates to talk to about this, while it isnt exactly cooking you could check our forum here https://www.rollitup.org/cooking-cannabis/ and contact those two as they are highly knowledgeable in the subject


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## VladFromOG (Apr 10, 2013)

I agree, canna, flash point doesnt have to have anything to do with decomposition, and I never said limonene tincture would decompose at the flash point, I stated that it would evap away before you could get it into solution if said solution was above the flash point. Seriously, why are you talking about decomposition - no one mentioned it. I said that limonene tincture would evap away before you could stir it into whatever it was you were cooking, not that it would decompose....
Free carbon, the type that is a combustion byproduct, is water soluble. Activated/fixed carbon, the type used in carbon filters and in organic compounds, is not necesarrily so (and indeed rarely is so)
I never said that I dont tolerate dissent, merely that I dont tolerate personal attacks and trolling.
Really, go through it again, and read very slowly and carefully, bc what you're mind is interpreting my sentences as meaning is clearly only inspired by what I wrote, and not verbatim. You're accusing me of making correlations I did not make, and of saying things I did not say, things one has little defense against as they do not pertain to oneself, and that is something only a troll who is needlessly trying to argue does; it is a clearly flawed form of debate.


> Sorry cannabineer is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her.


That's a shame, but it makes sense, in a sad sort of way. It is no wonder that the whole scene has fallen into such a state of mystical misinformed profiteering stagnation - I only come to share, I invite new data and collaboration, and instead I get a troll mod picking fights over semantics in sentences he misread, not because the concepts are bad or the data is wrong, but because when someone comes along and shares new concepts that are new and widely unthought of, theres always some netizen who feels that this threatens their perceived rank and has to kill it anyway they can, so they remain king of their little virtual mountain.
And that is just fine, doesnt really matter to me - I still have my knowledge and tricks, so I still get to play with my neat toys that no one else has - the only thing you can accomplish is to get me to stop sharing, and that harms me not at all 
I'm going to ignore you manually, or maybe just run a greasemonkey script to block you, because I have no wish to continue arguing with you. I wish you would focus your efforts on generating data or something useful, but I wont let myself get dragged into some icky vibes bc you want to argue about how I'm wrong about things I didnt say or you misinterpreted. Have a pleasant day.


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## cannabineer (Apr 10, 2013)

VladFromOG said:


> I agree, canna, flash point doesnt have to have anything to do with decomposition, and I never said limonene tincture would decompose at the flash point, I stated that it would evap away before you could get it into solution if said solution was above the flash point. Seriously, why are you talking about decomposition - no one mentioned it. I said that limonene tincture would evap away before you could stir it into whatever it was you were cooking, not that it would decompose....
> Free carbon, the type that is a combustion byproduct, is water soluble. Activated/fixed carbon, the type used in carbon filters and in organic compounds, is not necesarrily so (and indeed rarely is so)
> I never said that I dont tolerate dissent, merely that I dont tolerate personal attacks and trolling.
> Really, go through it again, and read very slowly and carefully, bc what you're mind is interpreting my sentences as meaning is clearly only inspired by what I wrote, and not verbatim. You're accusing me of making correlations I did not make, and of saying things I did not say, things one has little defense against as they do not pertain to oneself, and that is something only a troll who is needlessly trying to argue does; it is a clearly flawed form of debate.
> ...


I have looked through the post in question with greatest care and cannot find the words "limonene" or "tincture". I did find those words in earlier posts, but I restricted my critique and questions to the one in question. 

It is neither my duty nor my pleasure to proofread the others.

Believe me when i say that my objective is to be useful. I saw inaccuracies and just plain incorrectness portrayed as fact in the post in question. I offered challenge, and you are running the loser's gambit: excoriate my tone while ignoring the questions of fact. 
I have never heard of a water-soluble form of elemental, non-compounded carbon. The closest would be fullerene, which will dissolve to a useful extent in e.g. toluene but not water. Can you provide a link to put me into my place in re "free carbon", its definition, properties and reactions? 

I am also curious why you claim I have misinterpreted the post in question. (That is an invitation to show me where/how, with specifics.) i reproduced it verbatim, annotated. I addressed my concerns point by point. You didn't and don't need to personalize that. We can restrict our debate to points of fact, and i was frankly amazed to see my reservations and offered corrections interpreted as an attack. I do wonder why you're visibly assailing my character and not my questions about matters of fact. Let's steer the debate back onto legitimate matters of chemistry and engineering. cn


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## greenghost420 (Apr 10, 2013)

i love how this has gone from soda to some serious chemistry.im totally fascinated! teach me more mr wizards...roll it up, pass it round.


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