# Defoliation Test



## Bud Brewer (Feb 8, 2013)

I have six perfect clones they have been growing for the last week for the defoliation side by side 3 will be defoliated one heavily one medium one light and 3 controls that will be left alone the whole grow.

This was jan 23 I had one clone with two equal branches so I scared the stem and wrapped it in moist rockwool held with plastic wrap let it go ten days while it was rooting.


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## cobra28widow (Feb 8, 2013)

*Nice.... I will def stay tuned to see the results.. even though I already know wtf is gonna happen lol.... what strain?? and I usually take a few top fan leaves off to promote lower branching but usually only if its under fluoros... my 1000w doesnt need help with getting light to the lower branches... anyway good luck and +rep*


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 8, 2013)

It is bag seed my friend grew last summer and thru two in his garden they didn't have a chance to bud so I took them and defoliated many times in veg and now have two monsters with a week to finish using a 1000 watt MH the grow is my sig.


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## Izoc666 (Feb 8, 2013)

Bud Brewer, im glad that you re gonna do this defoliation test.

first of all what kind of bagseed or it will be better specific strain, please ? thanks

Peace


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 8, 2013)

It is bagseed my friend grew last fall but he thru two clones outside in september it is a mix probably 50/50 it has sativa leaves but an indica type bud with a balanced high almost a hash smell full flavor and smooth. 
I smoked a couple of zips my friend gave me and I have smoked a bud last week and yesterday it is getting better less than a week I think before it's ready smelling strong pics are in outdoor came indoor in signature below.

A week later still no growth but do have roots jan 30 the rockwool has been on the clone for a week.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 10, 2013)

This was the 3rd I cut the extra branch off that was wrapped In rockwool and transplanted the clones and buried them to equal heights they were close anyway now I growing them for a bit to see that they stay equal and grow fast the test should start next week.


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## herbbilly (Feb 10, 2013)

I'm along been playing with extra branch myself. My try at defo didn't blow my mind was different.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 11, 2013)

I have had good extra branching by defoliating










My clones took a hit the overhead light fell on two clones burning the top on one and the stem on another I topped the one with stem damage and watered it because it dried right out from the light sitting on it but it might not make it.

This was the day before





Then two got fried I put in my security lights.


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## silusbotwin (Feb 11, 2013)

Awesome! I'm currently doing 2 defoliation projects myself. After reading an article about it and checking some journals out, I decided I had to try it. Even tho I'm only using T5's in veg, I still get bushes so dense with foliage, even after stretching, I still get no canopy penetration with my 1000's in flower.

Not trying to steal you thread, just figured I would give you an idea of what my de-fols looks like:


LST'd and defoliated White Widow from Greenhouse Seed Co. This plant was a mainlined re-veg and shes about 6 months old from clone right now. Shes on the first day of flower in the photos below. I cut a bunch of clones from her the same day before sticking her into the flower room.



LST'd defoliated Pineapple Express from G13 Labs the day it went to flower. Vegged from clone for 2 months then I cut a bunch of clones from her



I just went and snapped more fresh shots for you so you could see what they look like.
This is the same White Widow that was pictured above on day 28 of flower. Golf ball sized nugs already and she takes 11 weeks to finish 



And heres the Pineapple Express @ 28 days as well


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 11, 2013)

Your plants are looking good lots of branching they should give you lots of bud.


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## herbbilly (Feb 11, 2013)

Are you removing the leaves with light they're praying you dont? How long was veg on the monsters? Your pics are gone. I'm curious bud how was it looked hot in there.


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## silusbotwin (Feb 11, 2013)

herbbilly said:


> Are you removing the leaves with light they're praying you dont? How long was veg on the monsters? Your pics are gone. I'm curious bud how was it looked hot in there.


Thats the purpose of defoliation. It's removing huge light-receiving fan leaves that are covering stunted growth tips to allow the tips to grow and receive the light that the fan leaf was hogging. Ultimately those newly lit tips will grow large and strong and grow large fan leaves of their own.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 11, 2013)

I remove the leaves to force the side branches out to become the fan leaves.

They were vegged for two months from good sized clones from my friends outdoor garden in crap soil.

I put the pics back I filled in my album so I deleted my newer pictures so I could upload them all in order.

Heat isn't to much of a problem the problem is I should have made my shield 4 to 6 feet bigger because I can't drop my light down between them anymore so I'll have to do a second or third harvest.


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## herbbilly (Feb 12, 2013)

silusbotwin said:


> Thats the purpose of defoliation. It's removing huge light-receiving fan leaves that are covering stunted growth tips to allow the tips to grow and receive the light that the fan leaf was hogging. Ultimately those newly lit tips will grow large and strong and grow large fan leaves of their own.


 The purpose of defo is to burn the leaves off of plants?


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## silusbotwin (Feb 12, 2013)

herbbilly said:


> The purpose of defo is to burn the leaves off of plants?


The way you wrote your first sentence made it seem like you were trying to ask if Bud is doing something you thought to be foolish.



> Are you removing the leaves with light they're praying you dont?


they're praying you dont? I must have misunderstood you


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 12, 2013)

Put in wok bro! Marvelous thread idea! I'll be around reading about defoliation for a while its seems as all the info is back and forth.Seems to me it's just the way that u do it..can be beneficial, can be detrimental


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 12, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I have six perfect clones they have been growing for the last week for the defoliation side by side 3 will be defoliated one heavily one medium one light and 3 controls that will be left alone the whole grow.


Very scientific. 



> This was jan 23 I had one clone with two equal branches so I scared the stem.....


And just how scared was it? As in frightened to death? It's "scarified", not scared. The following is a valid experiment done by highly educated, seasoned professionals, not some RIU stoner with his mind already made up. Good luck anyway....

http://www.gpnmag.com/what-really-causes-stretch


*About The Author

Paul V. Nelson is a professor of horticultural sciences, North Carolina State University, Raleigh, N.C.; Jin-Sheng Huang is currently on the faculty in the Department of Horticulture, Michigan State University, E. Lansing, Mich.; and Chen-Young Song is professor, Korean National Agricultural College, Kyunggi-Do, Republic of Korea. Nelson can be reached at (919) 515-1191.
*


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 12, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Very scientific.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Michigan State University, got my bachelors in ag science there in '77. Such a long time ago. Nice read, thanks UB...


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 12, 2013)

Good article I've read before but who was talking about fertilizer and stretch. 

I'm actually doing something to understand and show RIU members to see and do defoliation for themselves not believing some trolls that have never done it so can't begin to understand.

My plants speak for themselves.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 12, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Very scientific.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the read.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 12, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Good article I've read before but who was talking about fertilizer and stretch.
> 
> I'm actually doing something to understand and show RIU members to see and do defoliation for themselves not believing some trolls that have never done it so can't begin to understand.
> 
> My plants speak for themselves.


Bullshit. You're on a newbie campaign based on hype.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 12, 2013)

Yes a newbie to this site but not to growing that is out producing you and you can't quite understand how defoliation created this


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 12, 2013)

Buddy hates your guts hahaha. WHY?????


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 12, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Buddy hates your guts hahaha. WHY?????


Because I won't except his old unproven theory that a lost leaf is lost forever.

Despite the fact that they grow more because of it being removed, and I prove him wrong on a regular basis in theory and reality. 

The pic in his avatar is just an average large plant the small size of the avatar and him hiding behind it give you the impression of size it does not have the only pic he ever produced that even hinted at real size was one sativa he topped that was outside for all year in the sun now that might be close to what I have done In half the time Indoors.


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## herbbilly (Feb 12, 2013)

What was your schedule for defo? I tried at roots then every 2 weeks or so. Kinda lame you outgrew your room. Are the clones gonna make it.


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## silusbotwin (Feb 12, 2013)

<rant>
Geez Uncle Ben, is it that important to you to be viewed as correct, that you would find a "newbie" in a thread to go pick on and be rude to? I had lots of respect for you and kinda looked up to you (considering I use your techniques), but you are defeating your purpose brother! If you wanna catch honey, don't kick over the bee hive! Before you say something like "this noob has no honey to offer me", just remember, alot of folks watch your behavior and look up to you. You could have handled this so much more gracefully. Kinda like how the "noob" handled it when you cam into his thread insulting and clkaiming he is wrong. If you think he is wrong, then say it and provide sources but insulting will get you no where when it comes to persuading your target.

Anyway, I have been growing outdoor for 12 years and indoor for two years. I am able to grow A+ quality organic buds and achieve excellent yields. I have tried and seen the results of defoliation (just like I have TRIED and SEEN the benefits of LST, super-cropping, FIM, topping, mainlining etc). I support defoliation in many circumstances. It's a great technique. Am I a noob because I see the value in something that you don't? I fail to see the relevance of that article you linked. The research in the article was in regards to the potential correlations between stretching and nitrogen which has NOTHING to do with defol. Are you just upset because he thinks hes being scientific and you see that he is not being scientific enough according to your standards, or are you upset because he is promoting defoliation when you think it's a foolish thing? What is your point any way?


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## silusbotwin (Feb 12, 2013)

herbbilly said:


> What was your schedule for defo? I tried at roots then every 2 weeks or so. Kinda lame you outgrew your room. Are the clones gonna make it.


 ONLY take off leaves that are large and covering other growth tips. If you have no fan leaves that are 5-6 inches in length, your plants are not ready for defoliation. You shouldn't be going on a time schedule but rather whenever you see new huge fan leaves covering tips. I have found it tends to take around 7-10 days for newly lit branches to develop large enough leaves to pluck.

Defol seems kind of pointless to me if you aren't using some form of training to keep a wide even canopy. When a plant grows straight up with no training, it doesn't really block much lower light with it's fan leaves. Maybe a leaf or two per plant could be plucked but thats it.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 12, 2013)

My newbie grow was outdoors in 1984


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## silusbotwin (Feb 12, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> My newbie grow was outdoors in 1984


Damn! I was born in 84! I started growing outdoors in 98' (14 years old) after spending almost a year lurking for 10 hours a day @ overgrow (on my webtv via 56K dialup ahhaha) to try to get my game up to par with the legends! I think back to rules 1&2 of being a grower in the era before the legal medical green rush and now here I am finally growing legally  Back then I wouldn't have even told God I grow let alone strangers in a forum lol Man, times sure have changed. And my generation is about to take the reigns from the previous generation, and with us having instant access to free exchange of uncensored information on the internet, we are no longer blind to the truth! I am very optimistic for the future of the cannabis industry 

Sorry lol Im finished rambling now, I'm baked and going off on A.D.D. fueled tangent after A.D.D. fueled tangent haha


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 12, 2013)

herbbilly said:


> What was your schedule for defo? I tried at roots then every 2 weeks or so. Kinda lame you outgrew your room. Are the clones gonna make it.


You mean completely filling my room, I can think of everything else that could possibly go wrong this is the best problem to have who knew having to much bud is lame.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 13, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> you can't quite understand how defoliation created this


What is it here that you are crediting to defoliation?
Is that a skunk of some sort? I love the productive branching of some skunk, Sometimes I can't even tell which branch is the top when I have a room full of skunks. 

What is your general defoliation theory? I've got 12 skunk (green crack s1s i collected) plants under 1800 watts right now. flipping 12/12 in the next few days. They are about 11 inches tall now. I haven't defoled but they are already branching nice like a skunk does.
I've defoled in the past but I'll try it out again. I never make it through a grow without doing a side by side of some sort.

Full disclosure, I am just another grower who thinks defoliation is mostly a waste of time, to a slightly lesser extent harmful to the plant.
But, I don't get set in my ways. If you can show me improved yields I'de be thrilled and def give deserved credit to you and the method. 
Your plants up there look pretty good. So, you're doing something right. You have some good genetics at the very least.
If you want to add some plants to this test I have a very uniform grow to pitch in.

If you care to share, I'de love to hear a general theory you work from with this defol thing..


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 13, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Despite the fact that they grow more because of it being removed,


Do you think they might be growing them back because they need them?


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 13, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Do you think they might be growing them back because they need them?


Yes you are absolutely right that is the point removing the main fan leaves it forces the tiny leaves on the stalk to become branches with plenty of fan leaves if done a few times you have many more bud sites and density then if you just let those small branches grow in the shadow of the fan leaf literally and figuratively.

I updated my other thread Outdoor came Indoor at the bottom showing the beginning of the defoliation of the two monsters from sticks with almost no branching.


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## Evo8Emperor (Feb 13, 2013)

I agree with bud brewer. From his pictures you can tell alone how defoliation is a good thing. I believe in defoliation myself and I can say for those looking to grow bigger plants and get the most out of them then its the way to go.

Everyone's situation is different is what the problem is. SOG people I don't think defoliate all that much due to the plant taking a bit more time to recover here and there. With time just being the issue and not the plant's ability to grow back.

I think of sun leaves as a back up reserve for those shady and shitty day's outside when there is not ample light that day. Where as indoors they get all the light they need as well as food. Sun leaves suck up nute's to grow hence why they get so big. Once you start cutting them off you will notice how much more the plant grow's instead of the sun leaves.

Defoliating makes for a better yield and better mom's for cutting's. Just some time and experience to see what to cut and not to cut. I don't cut everything off at once but I let them grow out a week or two at a time and then go back in and start cutting.


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## Evo8Emperor (Feb 13, 2013)

I laugh because people are so scared to cut up one plant. Just cut a clone for that purpose and grow it out as a experiment. Its not the end of the world to huck a plant even though it's hard and I highly doubt you would not like the outcome of defoliating.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 13, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Despite the fact that they grow more because of it being removed, and I prove him wrong on a regular basis in theory and reality.


We already hashed that issue out in one of the other threads...... with me asking a question regarding setting the plant back and you dodging you the question.

Shit, how many times are we gonna beat this dead horse and how many times are you going to post those pix as if posting them a hundred fuckin' times makes your point valid? I get it, OK? You're into gimmicks and trickery and if I had to guess you're another fool for cannabis specific snake oils and products.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 13, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> We already hashed that issue out in one of the other threads...... with me asking a question regarding setting the plant back and you dodging you the question.
> 
> Shit, how many times are we gonna beat this dead horse and how many times are you going to post those pix as if posting them a hundred fuckin' times makes your point valid? I get it, OK? You're into gimmicks and trickery and if I had to guess you're another fool for cannabis specific snake oils and products.


You drunk man? Damn I wish you were more helpful given all your experience and what you think you know mannn! C'mon Bennnnn


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 13, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> We already hashed that issue out in one of the other threads...... with me asking a question regarding setting the plant back and you dodging you the question.
> 
> Shit, how many times are we gonna beat this dead horse and how many times are you going to post those pix as if posting them a hundred fuckin' times makes your point valid? I get it, OK? You're into gimmicks and trickery and if I had to guess you're another fool for cannabis specific snake oils and products.


Your the one beating a dead horse I have posted many studies showing it can work with many kinds of plants. I have posted Pictures of plants with little branching become so dense after defoliation that it will block out a 1000 watt light so much the interior has no bud despite your other theory that bud grows in the dark it doesn't


In this last pic you can see no bud right in the middle surrounded by lower bud that gets light.




I haven't dodged anything I have repeatedly stated in the other threads that it takes about three days to get the leaf mass back from the small branches becoming bigger and taking a more dominant role challenging the top.

Faster recovery than topping.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 13, 2013)

The back and forth on this subject is just bullshit and trolling. Do you two fight when you get in bed with each other for the night too? I bet you do... haha.

The thread has potential. Let go of UB's weiner and make it happen.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 13, 2013)

Lol @ this man bringing ppl holding weiners into the thread hahahaha. A good high laugh.


#gottalovegoodweed

PS. I'm pretty sure it's already "happening" lol. I believe in what I see


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 13, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> The back and forth on this subject is just bullshit and trolling. Do you two fight when you get in bed with each other for the night too? I bet you do... haha.


Can't you just feel the love he has to come here to spew the same nonce he has in the other defoliation threads.

If you looked at the pictures I uploaded on the other thread you can see the branches came out and were defoliated again so the nodes on the branches came out more I repeated this five times before I let them leaf out before flower. 

I cou


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 13, 2013)

Buddy got some kind of imagination on him lol

I got a girl bro 

Edit*

And for the record I've been following the defoliation topic for a while. Not one particular internet persona. I've seem some of his results and have been impressed.
He does what he does and it work. He might even find out something that hasn't been found out yet...you never know....

And they say stop experimenting bcuz the leaves are this and that...
*WHYYYY?*


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 13, 2013)

I then had lots of branches and leaves and should have defoliated once more before flower or flipped them sooner or made a bigger shield. 

If I had defoliated before flower I believe I would have a more dense top but you do have to let them leafout and stretch they need the leaf don't get me wrong this isn't about keeping the leaves off all the time they need leaves.

This isn't a lot different then topping you top they grow a couple of weeks you do it again the idea is the same but you keep your cola with defoliation and can even keep it at the same height as the other branches by defoliating just the tops of the highest branches forcing the brances at the top out and reduce upward growth.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 13, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Can't you just feel the love he has to come here to spew the same nonce he has in the other defoliation threads.
> 
> If you looked at the pictures I uploaded on the other thread you can see the branches came out and were defoliated again so the nodes on the branches came out more I repeated this five times before I let them leaf out before flower.
> 
> I cou


So are you saying that you only defoliate during veg? None during flower?


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 13, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Any they say stop experimenting bcuz they leaves are this and that...
> *WHYYYY?*


You're going to have to use English or Spanish if you want me to respond to that reply. I have no idea what you are trying to say.
If English is a second language, apologies. If that's the case we might do better in your language.. haha.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 13, 2013)

I defoliated twice in flower after stretch then 3 or so weeks before chop just big leaves and do it over a couple of days and don't feed for a couple of days.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 13, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> You're going to have to use English or Spanish if you want me to respond to that reply. I have no idea what you are trying to say.
> If English is a second language, apologies. If that's the case we might do better in your language.. haha.


I edited it. Maybe clearing up the few typos makes it look a little more like English to you?


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 13, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I defoliated twice in flower after stretch then 3 or so weeks before chop just big leaves and do it over a couple of days and don't feed for a couple of days.


I got you. I am too late to defol in veg but I will try that in flower on half the garden.

I just finished 4 grow journals otherwise I would do a thread too. I'm burnt out on posting, taking pictures, etc.

Anyway, sub'd.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 13, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> And they say stop experimenting bcuz the leaves are this and that...
> *WHYYYY?*


I wasn't entirely serious.. I was talking about this ^.. I think I know what you are saying.


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## elkukupanda (Feb 13, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> I wasn't entirely serious.. I was talking about this ^.. I think I know what you are saying.


No lo hagas attention... el sincerely no es sinceridad!.. el sincerely es un pendejo!..


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 13, 2013)

I thought I'll repost this showing my plants at different stages

My luck is awesome I got stuck with a gallon of heavy crap garden soil, purple stems till I transplanted, vegged with custom cfls and a 400 watt hps defoliated many times to make some dense dank.

The cfls are great for veg my custon made batwing hood is original as is my flowering vertical shield and my own home made organics along with my years of experience made me so lucky.

Just watch what I do instead of just reading about something try it you might get as luck as me if you pay attention.

I know you like to see my skinny defoliated ladies.




























 ​ 

​


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 14, 2013)

Well. I couldn't get myself to do it to 6 of my 12 plants... but I did it to 2 of them. My garden has "sweet spots" and not so sweet spots... I took the 3 largest upper to middle fan leaves off of 1 plant in a sweet spot and 1 plant in a not so sweet spot. After removing the 3 leaves the lower growth is all exposed to the light.

I know it is not your method, but I'm going to try it out.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 14, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> I got you. I am too late to defol in veg but I will try that in flower on half the garden.
> 
> I just finished 4 grow journals otherwise I would do a thread too. I'm burnt out on posting, taking pictures, etc.
> 
> Anyway, sub'd.


I had a friend show me defoliation years ago but I didn't believe him but after seeing it for myself. I did it when things got to thick but nothing set in stone.

I'm investigating the best times for flower in veg it's easy, just do it till you like the structure then let it releaf and flower.
Two good growers from another site do it one at flip the other two weeks in, most do it at 21 days and 45 days like I have done, one guy says wait till the 5th week so their are things to test this will be the first of many for me.

For your garden if your going to do half I'd do some at different times and amounts to see what works best for yield and larf reduction keep them in groups of two or three or more it sounds like you run some numbers then you can weight and judge the best times/amounts you can post them here if you don't want another journal. It took me until my plants are near done to load all the photos I took.

I'll start the defoliation tomorrow the two burnt ones one is fine just burn the top the other I topped to keep them even but it's stalk got burnt bad hopefully it's like suppercropping and will recover strong


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 14, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> No lo hagas attention... el sincerely no es sinceridad!.. el sincerely es un pendejo!..


Sinceramente es un asesino de hojas.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 14, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Well. I couldn't get myself to do it to 6 of my 12 plants... but I did it to 2 of them. My garden has "sweet spots" and not so sweet spots... I took the 3 largest upper to middle fan leaves off of 1 plant in a sweet spot and 1 plant in a not so sweet spot. After removing the 3 leaves the lower growth is all exposed to the light.
> 
> I know it is not your method, but I'm going to try it out.


Like I just mentioned there are many ways to skin a plant lol we will figure out what works best because I know you don't get bud without light but you still need some leaves.

Throw a pic up if you get a chance(just when you think your out they bring back in)LOL


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I thought I'll repost this showing my plants at different stages​




Sure am glad I saw this. I just may have missed it POSTED SOMEWHERE ELSE FOR THE 10TH TIME.

UB​


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> we will figure out what works best because I know you don't get bud without light but you still need some leaves.


Buds do not need light to produce. For the 10th time, they are not capable of photosynthesis, at least to any definable degree that induces cell division/elongation whether it be stem, root, leaf, or flower tissue. 

UB


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## Evo8Emperor (Feb 14, 2013)

I have some pics of my purple wreck mom and different aurora mom both i defoliate heavily throughout there life seeing as there mom's but you can see the growth difference anyway. No matter what its just someone's opinion so those who do may or may not see a benefit and same for those who don't. I lean towards it benefiting the plant and your grow.

Aurora on the left Purple Wreck on the right






Aurora






Purple Wreck






The new leaves grow in so quick you don't even notice you cut anything off besides the fact that everything now is a potential bud site and not just a huge fan leaf.


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## Evo8Emperor (Feb 14, 2013)

I have a 300w led in that tent so lighting is pretty much purple and not so good for pics. If I have to I can sneak in there later. Think it should suffice to show the foliage growth anyway.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Buds do not need light to produce. For the 10th time, they are not capable of photosynthesis, at least to any definable degree that induces cell division/elongation whether it be stem, root, leaf, or flower tissue.
> 
> UB


I'm glad you stopped by to tell us about the magical bud that doesn't need light to grow these have been in poor light for more then 2 months.
I wish I had your magic bud that grows in the dark but mine don't you might have seen these pictures before but your memory seems to slip.



All the leaves and bud aren't getting any light underneath but Ben says they don't need it light goes right thru leaf what do you think?










I'm going to get rid of that big pile of bud blocking light to my stems and leaves because they are the best.​


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2013)

Evo8Emperor said:


> No matter what its just someone's opinion so those who do may or may not see a benefit and same for those who don't. I lean towards it benefiting the plant and your grow.


R.C. Clarke, the father of cannabis anatomy and plant science didn't give an opinion, he stated a fact. If you and BB choose to ignore that, fine. You can do your smoke and mirrors thing all day, doesn't mean a thing regarding any bonafide scientific conclusion. Clarke presents those conclusions. He is the expert.

UB


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 14, 2013)

Evo8Emperor said:


> I have some pics of my purple wreck mom and different aurora mom both i defoliate heavily throughout there life seeing as there mom's but you can see the growth difference anyway. No matter what its just someone's opinion so those who do may or may not see a benefit and same for those who don't. I lean towards it benefiting the plant and your grow.
> 
> Aurora on the left Purple Wreck on the right
> 
> ...


Nice mothers you could fill a house with all the clones you could get off of those nothing like defoliation for density.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> R.C. Clarke, the father of cannabis anatomy and plant science didn't give an opinion, he stated a fact. If you and BB choose to ignore that, fine. You can do your smoke and mirrors thing all day, doesn't mean a thing regarding any bonafide scientific conclusion. Clarke presents those conclusions. He is the expert.
> 
> UB


I pointed out on the leaf blocker thread where he is making an opinion of his theory If you go back a page or two you will see the highlighted quote of his opinion.

Its sad your mental functions are lapsing I'm sure you have seen it before.

Can I buy some of your magic beans that grow bud in the dark because as you can see defoliation makes so much bud the light doesn't get down there and there is no bud where there isn't light should I post the pics again?


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## Evo8Emperor (Feb 14, 2013)

Yah I don't see how it's smoke and mirror's when the pic is right there. I'll make sure next time I take a video of the plant as I'm cutting it and then take a video again a week later when its regrown and filled in.

Yah well R.C. Clarke needs to be discredited then. Its a weed none the less so its going to grow no matter what you do to it. If defoliation is so bad why do rose gardner's due it to promote there buds ? To promote their buds new growth in spring. Just basic gardening and common sense is all.


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## Evo8Emperor (Feb 14, 2013)

As for my mom's i try and not to cut any main stems as a clone unless I have to in which case i will just cut the lowest ones getting the least light. I defoliate to try and get as much side branching filled in as possible so I can cut those off the main stem's for clones. keeping them all growing still and my mother's in control.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2013)

Evo8Emperor said:


> Yah I don't see how it's smoke and mirror's when the pic is right there.


I have shown pix too. What's your point? You gonna chest beat and tell me you're getting more yield than me? Again, you guys don't have ANY science going here, just the same old cannabis forum bullshit I've been reading for 15 years.



> Yah well R.C. Clarke needs to be discredited then. Its a weed none the less so its going to grow no matter what you do to it. If defoliation is so bad why do rose gardner's due it to promote there buds ? To promote their buds new growth in spring. Just basic gardening and common sense is all.


You arrogant know-it-alls can not discredit a scholar and horticulturist. Nice try. The misguided comment about roses clearly shows your lack of understanding regarding certain horticultural and plant processes. Rose gardeners prune their perennials during *dormancy* as a means to train them into a certain profile regarding height, width, removing dead wood etc. They do not do it for production except to maybe balance the root mass with the foliage/flower mass. 

I'm a niche farmer as well as home gardener of veggies, fruits, olives, tropicals, nuts, berries, landscape trees.....I am or have grown it all. One of my crops is wine grapes which I sell to amateur winemakers. Here in about 3 weeks I'll be pruning DORMANT grapevine wood to keep them trained to a specific profile called Vertical Shoot Positioning aka VSP. Has nothing to do with crop load, that's another op done after flower set. My premium grapes are shaded by a heavy canopy.

I have peach trees, they were recently pruned, to open up the canopy and bring the height down to 7' or less so picking is easiest. Most of the fruit is shaded and is of premium quality - very large, sugary sweet, juicy, bold red skin colors. 

Hass avocados are found within the canopy, shaded...... 

Enjoy your smoke and mirrors.

Uncle Ben


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 14, 2013)

I'm glad avocados grow in the shade under the moving sun.

Do you have any magic beans that grow bud in the heavy shade mine don't


All the leaves and bud aren't getting any light underneath but Ben says they don't need it light goes right thru leaf and isn't even needed what do you think?










I'm going to get rid of that big pile of bud blocking light to my stems and leaves because they are the best.​


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 14, 2013)

I defoliated a plant that had mite damage. It is now the biggest of the four  biggest fan leaves, biggest in total size, just big. It worked so good i did it to two more. id love to see this at the end of the side by


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 14, 2013)

I'll be defoliating tonight pics after work. 

It's something you have to see for yourself. 

Mights suck but at least you found a way to increase your budsites and learned how to get rid of the pests now if there was a spray for internet trolls I'd be getting some of that.


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## Evo8Emperor (Feb 14, 2013)

I can see fruits growing in the shade no problem just another common sense thing. The tree or vine or what ever type of stem it is, is feeding the fruit. Weed is a flower that I believe needs light. 

I am not stepping on anyone's toes. Like i said everyone got their own ways and opinions. First thing I said. Who ever follow's who is there choice. For those who want to see that they can increase their yield and done so with a smaller plant with much more vigorous side branching and growth from cutting some leaves that grow back by the hundreds anyway will. Not a big deal. Something you got to do to see it. Everyone I know defoliates that grows. My buddy pulls 6-8 oz of rooted clones. 12 plants one 4x8 flood table and 3k watts above. Such super hard dense nugs its amazing. hammer with light and defoliate and see what happens.


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## Evo8Emperor (Feb 14, 2013)

Better yet if there was just one way of growing then we wouldn't have the innovations we do and produce and yield the flowers that we do.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2013)

Evo8Emperor said:


> Weed is a flower that I believe needs light.


Wrong. Weed is a tropical foliage plant, an annual that flowers just like any other tropical plant.

UB


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 14, 2013)

Buds still need light to develop should I post real evidence again or are we growing fruit trees?


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 14, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I'm glad avocados grow in the shade under the moving sun.
> 
> Do you have any magic beans that grow bud in the heavy shade mine don't
> 
> ​


 when I was growing outdoors I was surprised to see how well some plants did in a forest full of trees (shade).
I only wanted so many plants in my full sun area, it was exposed to all eyes from above, you know... I threw a couple plants in more dense forest area and was surprised to see how well they did... They had nearly no direct sun... I think more light trickled through those trees than my eyes had led me to believe. Growth was slower than the full sun plants though.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 14, 2013)

I had a purple strain that only got purple where the light was hitting it directly. Those looked ripe and "done" when harvested. The under buds were still lime green and a little airy. They all cured well together


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## Evo8Emperor (Feb 14, 2013)

I wasn't being so specific but you can. I'm sure enough of us get my point. I don't see why you get your pannies in a bunch over someone else's words. There not your's to defend so who cares.

That and its not that big of a deal to learn something new or to be wrong. That's the only way to further yourself along. People take it so personally growing when we should just be giving everyone a hand. Its just things that people don't like letting out for all to know. lol. I know so many people like that I just laugh.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 14, 2013)

^ That's interesting. I've got a handful of purple and pinks growing now (Sannies Killing Fields). I'll look for that. Just from memory, one of them does go a deep purple up top and not so much down low.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 14, 2013)

like you can see in the pics on the last two pages they don't need much light I have buds from the lowest branches that stretched to get lite but the stuff higher up in the interior there is nothing not even popcorn.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 14, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Buds still need light to develop should I post real evidence again or are we growing fruit trees?


I'm with UB on this... Your pics are nice, but I don't see how this is proof that buds need direct lighting to develop.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Buds still need light to develop should I post real evidence again or are we growing fruit trees?


You don't know shit about botany, that's the real evidence and the fact that you keep posting the same series of photos in 4 threads like some compulsive nut doesn't make your point valid.

I'll explain a little botany to ya'll - leaves are the plant's unit that produces sugar's and other products for plant cell tissue production and elongation whether it is finally channeled to roots, stems, more leaves, or fruiting bodies. Phloem and xylem are the circulatory conduits which carries cell building byproducts of photosynthesis to all plant parts including flowers, actually it's the phloem that carries those products (glucose), the xylem conduits water and elements into the chloroplasts located in the fan leaves for sugar production. If you want to remove those efficient solar collectors, fine, but don't sit here and try to convince someone with 40 years of horticulture experience that you know botany. 

With a few lights and other stuff even a monkey can throw together an indoor garden and grow this weed.

UB


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 14, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> ^ That's interesting. I've got a handful of purple and pinks growing now (Sannies Killing Fields). I'll look for that. Just from memory, one of them does go a deep purple up top and not so much down low.


The problem i had was that two plants grew where there was only room for one. When i spread them out finally tward the end of the grow the spots not getting light were all way greener than the purple tops. There was side light and the ones on the side were purple, so it has to be light specific, the fan leaves down there even stayed way greener.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 14, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> I'm with UB on this... Your pics are nice, but I don't see how this is proof that buds need direct lighting to develop.


Im with the OP on this one. I belive that the buds do need light to develop properly or at the same speed as ones reciving light.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 14, 2013)

The photos show no bud where the light is to week the last pic the middle branch could be cloned with no reveg surrounded by buds with bud down below in the light.
**


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You don't know shit about botany, that's the real evidence and the fact that you keep posting the same series of photos in 4 threads like some compulsive nut doesn't make your point valid.
> 
> I'll explain a little botany to ya'll - leaves are the plant's unit that produces sugar's and other products for plant cell tissue production and elongation whether it is finally channeled to roots, stems, more leaves, or fruiting bodies. Phloem and xylem are the circulatory conduits which carries cell building byproducts of photosynthesis to all plant parts including flowers, actually it's the phloem that carries those products (glucose), the xylem conduits water and elements into the chloroplasts located in the fan leaves for sugar production. If you want to remove those efficient solar collectors, fine, but don't sit here and try to convince someone with 40 years of horticulture experience that you know botany.
> 
> ...


After defoliating the leaves grow back. I dont believe hes talking about removing the leaves forever. Theyll come back and biger than ever.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 14, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> I'm with UB on this... Your pics are nice, but I don't see how this is proof that buds need direct lighting to develop.


I have proof here, these are one of the plants i mentioned earlier, not a purple strain, actually TW, but it has purpled nicely. It was netted and kinda stuck where it was so only the top was getting light. If you look closely you can see the green lower buds. Not as nicely developed as the rest. When i separated the two plants by cutting the net out it was clear that the lack of light was effecting the development.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Im with the OP on this one. I belive that the buds do need light to develop properly or at the same speed as ones reciving light.


That's a feeling, not a fact. But strong feelings are hard to give up, just ask some one struggling with an impending divorce who knows in their head they need to get out but in their heart they want to stay. It's human nature, you'll see a lot of psychological dynamics at play in cannabis forums. 

As I've explained previously I've grown outdoors as much as indoors and its been my experience that lower buds do not usually develop like the fat colas at the top. Not because they don't get plenty of light which they do, but because of the influence of apical dominance, NOT LIGHT LEVELS. A seasoned gardener, one who has grown all kinds of plant material for at least 10 years, understands this, while an inexperienced gardener doesn't thru no fault of their own. It's all about plant resources including water and nutes uptake. The upper part of the plant gets most of the goodies just as nature intended it to be. Why do you think the lower fan leaves yellow and die off when you deprive your plants of sufficient N, especially during the flowering response? That's right, because the plant will sacrifice metabolites found at those lower levels in the plant tissue, N is one, to nourish the upper parts of the plant. N is a mobile element.

Which takes me to the lame practice of lollipopping. 99% of those practicing it can't retain leaves at lower levels so they do the "sour grapes" drill. I do retain lower leaves and as an example, I'll post photos of very crowded plants which are flowering very nicely at lower levels, in spite of the "shade". Look at the flowering response on the first plant. These are large plants, as I do SOB type growing (sea of bush).

 

Uncle Ben


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 14, 2013)

Wrong when you have a dense plant the light not apical dominance develops bud. You see the bud in the top right corner it is well developed it is the lowest branch at the very bottom in the last photo in the middle a foot higher with no light no bud.

Both those plants are getting light and don't have the density to shade anything they don't need lots of light but they don't develop in the dark interior.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> That's a feeling, not a fact. But strong feelings are hard to give up, just ask some one struggling with an impending divorce who knows in their head they need to get out but in their heart they want to stay. It's human nature, you'll see a lot of psychological dynamics at play in cannabis forums.
> 
> As I've explained previously I've grown outdoors as much as indoors and its been my experience that lower buds do not usually develop like the fat colas at the top. Not because they don't get plenty of light which they do, but because of the influence of apical dominance, NOT LIGHT LEVELS. A seasoned gardener, one who has grown all kinds of plant material for at least 10 years, understands this, while an inexperienced gardener doesn't thru no fault of their own. It's all about plant resources including water and nutes uptake. The upper part of the plant gets most of the goodies just as nature intended it to be. Why do you think the lower fan leaves yellow and die off when you deprive your plants of sufficient N, especially during the flowering response? That's right, because the plant will sacrifice metabolites found at those lower levels in the plant tissue, N is one, to nourish the upper parts of the plant. N is a mobile element.
> 
> ...


No, its a fact. These pictures are not made up, theyre real.
Actually the largest buds on this plant are 3/4 of the way up and the purple plant had the largest buds at the bottom. No kidding. If the light isnt touching them they stay green, dont purple at the same speed, and are less dense. I can show you more in depth pics if youd like but im certain that light develops the buds faster and more dense


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Wrong when you have a dense plant the light not apical dominance develops bud.


You can hang a sign on a pig and call it a dog all you want. You wouldn't know hormonal responses and plant life cycles if they bit you in the ass. You do not know botany, you parrot the same newbie false paradigms. 

Don't you have some plants to flush? What, can't find the spigot? Keep looking or do you need some kid with 20 posts to find it for you?

And before someone asks me again, no I don't flush. It's a myth, a false forum paradigm that gets resurrected and parroted with every new crop of noobs.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> No, its a fact. These pictures are not made up, theyre real.


And so is the first photo previously posted. How do you explain that large mass of buds at the bottom levels of the plant, shaded by fan leaves? You do see the incredible amount of large fan leaves? Again, we see what we want to see but that plant speaks for itself. 

I'm sorry you didn't get squat at the bottom. I always do double harvests to bulk up those lower levels a bit. Makes a big difference and not necessarily what I know you and the turbo posting photographer are gonna parrot - "buds need light to develop". When you cut out the bulked up colas, auxins are redistributed and now the lower part of the plant which had previously been regressive becomes dominant, able to enjoy all the plant's resources which includes a well developed and efficient root system.

It's all about botany people. Get ya sum -  

UB


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 14, 2013)

All the leaves and bud aren't getting any light underneath but Ben says they don't need it light goes right thru leaf what do you think? I can only see bud on the outer edges and even the very bottom in the light there is nothing high in the interior.










I'm going to get rid of that big pile of bud blocking light to my stems and leaves because they are the best.​


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> And so is the first photo previously posted. How do you explain that large mass of buds at the bottom levels of the plant, shaded by fan leaves? You do see the incredible amount of large fan leaves? Again, we see what we want to see but that plant speaks for itself.
> 
> UB


Ben the leaves will not remain off, they are just defoliated to make them grow back stronger. Thats what the test is going to show. Leaves removed in veg will grow back more dense than if the plant were let grow naturally. My plant had large amounts of buds in shaded areas as well, they just werent as good as the lit buds


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 14, 2013)

Ben i thought of an expirement. Grow a nice trophy bud plant, you make nice ones all the time im sure. Then cover the trophy bud up........shade it. See what happens. If your theroy is correct then it should ripen, color, and harden, just like all the others and at the same speed. I doubt that it will but you could test it.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Ben i thought of an expirement. Grow a nice trophy bud plant, you make nice ones all the time im sure. Then cover the trophy bud up........shade it. See what happens. If your theroy is correct then it should ripen, color, and harden, just like all the others and at the same speed. I doubt that it will but you could test it.


That doesn't make any sense. I don't know about your colas but mine are full of fan leaves, large and small, witness the posted pix. And if you're an observant gardener, you see the ultra long fan leaf petioles. Betcha you can't guess why they've evolved over time to stick way out from the plant?

It seems to me that you think a flower is a glucose producing factory. Is that correct? Why else would you think that flowers need light to develop? This is not Troll-it-Up theory play time, I'm talkin' science here. 

UB


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 14, 2013)

No i think thats in the leaves but what the test would prove is that what you said, that apical dominance not direct light is responsible for development is not entirely true. I dont know, you may be right but thats how you could test it. In my limited expirience the buds that got light did way better than the ones in the shade, regardless of hight on the plant. The side lower buds were getting light from another 600 and they changed to purple and were more dense.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> No i think thats in the leaves but what the test would prove is that what you said, that apical dominance not direct light is responsible for development is not entirely true. I dont know, you may be right but thats how you could test it. In my limited expirience the buds that got light did way better than the ones in the shade, regardless of hight on the plant. The side lower buds were getting light from another 600 and they changed to purple and were more dense.


You dodged my question.

OK, let's put it this way. The total units of glucose produced by all leaves contributes to production of plant tissue, and that includes calyx's. 

You don't understand this apical dominance thing because you are not a seasoned gardener, and I don't just mean pot.

The fact that your plants showed purple anthocynanins (which masks chlorophyll) is usually a result of genetics and low temperatures, not light.

UB


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 14, 2013)

Your right, im a newb, im on my first plants. I read alot and ive helped alot of folks along the way. If your right about apical dominance vs. light then i dont see where the test wouldnt work in your favor, but like i said i dont think it will.
And youve edited your post/question twice already so of course i dodged it, it wasnt there before lol this is a reserch thread, not a pissing match.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You dodged my question.
> 
> OK, let's put it this way. The total units of glucose produced by all leaves contributes to production of plant tissue, and that includes calyx's.
> 
> ...


If this is true then cover a side bud and see the results compared to other side buds.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 14, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> The problem i had was that two plants grew where there was only room for one. When i spread them out finally tward the end of the grow the spots not getting light were all way greener than the purple tops. There was side light and the ones on the side were purple, so it has to be light specific, the fan leaves down there even stayed way greener.


Yeah, thinking on it more.. my sweet tooth plants used to blue/purple a little bit and it was exclusively at the tops.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 14, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> The photos show no bud where the light is to week the last pic the middle branch could be cloned with no reveg surrounded by buds with bud down below in the light.
> **



So then is this area an area that you did not defol enough? If defol was the answer to this problem then why is it on your defol'd plant?

this is pretty common when you alter your plant to the point of having an unnatural number of bud sites..
This I can speak on with much confidence... I am a genetic nerd and know what each of my plants produce... I've said this 20 times, but it so true...
You can get 4 10 gram buds 8 5 gram buds 16 2.5 gram buds or 32 .75 gram buds... the plant just does what it does. Obviously, root mass, container size, air quality, nutes, light levels effect... So say those aspects are met with adequate/consistent conditions... Your plant yields the same..
You can reach a point where you have so many sites that your plant won't even produce on all of them... Like most things with these plants (from what I see) the lower growth sacrifices first.

I've done much looking into this area.... fueled by hours spent at a trim table asking myself "how do I get the same amount of weight without all of this bullshit fluffy stuff to trim?"
The answer was less bud sites. I get the same weight every time. This is assuming my canopy is full. Not full with many many small buds, but full with many large buds. (Less budsites) I get the same weight with the larger but spend many less hours at the table.

I'm not saying you are absolutely wrong.... but... HAVE you tried these genetics without a defol? Or with less budsites? 
Perhaps there is an element to my gardening style that is making this happen, but the more smaller buds/less larger buds/same weight thing has been showing itself to be true time and time again.

The factor that really increases yield ime is the proper spacing under the light which is dictated by how the plant likes to grow/branch. The more altering you do to the plant, the more bud sites.. That I will agree with you on... I just don't find it to be a good thing. If I was growing just a couple plants and yield was increased say 20%, then I might go for it. The thing is that I'm not seeing any increase at all as I am already filling my canopy up well with fewer bud sites that are developing larger flowers.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 14, 2013)

There are many ways to skin this cat. You are obviously doing well. I am stepping out of this argument by saying this...
I can get the same yields that you do with those genetics, have more consistent flowers and save myself a ton of time in the process. (Labor and Veg/mutilation time/$)
I can achieve what you are going for "high yields" without mutilating the plant... while you are finding a path to your destination (yield) you're taking a long messy way to get there and I would assume arriving to a lesser destination (yield).

Good luck. I'll have more to chime in after I do some defol work on these two Green Crack plants. If I see something to gain with this I will eat my words. I am ALWAYS looking to bump up my yields. Spacing and genetics have been successful and low fuss here. It's been fun chatting. It's nice that we can debate without getting huffy. I respect your opinions on this.. I can see that clearly you can grow some nice crops.

Don't let go of that plant.


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## silusbotwin (Feb 14, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> So then is this area an area that you did not defol enough? If defol was the answer to this problem then why is it on your defol'd plant?
> 
> this is pretty common when you alter your plant to the point of having an unnatural number of bud sites..
> This I can speak on with much confidence... I am a genetic nerd and know what each of my plants produce... I've said this 20 times, but it so true...
> ...


I've noticed a similar effect in regards to resin production. I've noticed I can take 2 cuts from a mother and veg one for 2 months on to some serious mass, and the other go straight to flower. It seems the one that is vegged for 2 months has a significantly smaller amount of resin than the zero day vegged plant. It almost seems a plant has a genetically preset limit to the amount of resin it will produce, and it the buds get weaker in potency the larger the plant gets. Maybe I'm just baked all the time and wrong tho


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## elkukupanda (Feb 14, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> If this is true then cover a side bud and see the results compared to other side buds.


I'm try to elaborate on this... By covering the bud completely, you will also be covering leaves within that bud. When this happens, phytochrome B will switch that part of the plant from photosynthesis to respiration. Buds do benefit from respiration since it's the inverse of photosynthesis and all stuff collected/manufactured during the day is used during the night. Keep in mind for a good night to happen you need good day as well. I think it would be counter productive to cover one bud because your blocking its leaves as well. Even if you think that lower buds are not getting too much light, they still get something and that keeps the plant going at an optimal growth rate.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 14, 2013)

I'll try and get you all in one post I have very little bud inside these big plant think of a hedge a few inches in there is no leaves at all even if it is 6 feet high 4 wide a fence the inside will be empty.

I have said it before if I would have made this area 3 feet longer and a foot or two wider I could have dropped the light in between and had better use of the light and developed the whole bottom middle plus the tops of the four feet walls of bud it would all be heavy like the tops I have now.

I now have huge tops with plants 6 inches apart the top mass is 2.5 feet by 3 feet each all heavy primo bud the top third with good bud. All the way around the outside I have decent smaller bud all the way down to the lowest branch that will still give me couple of grams of frosty bud four feet below the bottom of the bulb but it made it's way to get direct light stuff a few inches back is just a cluster of hair.

This is all good because if you can see from the pics I have posted I will have large plants left after this harvest It should be about three feet high by two around with leaves, and two week old looking tops that should just explode when I chop and up the light by 2.5 hours to 14 where I started. 

They were budding fine at 3 weeks with 13 hour light so it will give flowering a restart with no veg time so any extra veg I gave them is going to come back big time with big plants to start flowering with.

I will turn them around so the taller stuff is at the back and I will be able to drop the bulb down between them so they should stretch to a similar height but I will keep space between, tying branches earlier now that I have the racks in place.

This will be all In my other thread as will be the harvest, reflower, mixes 

This is as thread about a side by side defoliated vs natural not theory you will see what it does.

If you want to talk theory the Light blocker thread is great for that maybe you will be the one lucky post to go over 200 pages of drivel.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 14, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I'll try and get you all in one post


I got you... Sorry for filling your test thread with debate. I'll be lurking.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 14, 2013)

No don't lurk contribute I want to see what you have going and how you got it going, but theory can go to other threads.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 14, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Yeah, thinking on it more.. my sweet tooth plants used to blue/purple a little bit and it was exclusively at the tops.


Just took a sweet tooth i love how the tops look, so agressive  the defols are winning right now IMO


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 14, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> This is as thread about a side by side defoliated vs natural not theory you will see what it does.
> 
> If you want to talk theory the Light blocker thread is great for that maybe you will be the one lucky post to go over 200 pages of drivel.


Seriously. UB needs to keep his troll somewhere else.

I'm looking forward to seeing your results.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 14, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Seriously. UB needs to keep his troll somewhere else.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing your results.


UBs a nice guy that knows his shit, thanks to his debate this thread has become interesting.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Your right, im a newb, im on my first plants.


I know. I can spot you guys a mile away by the nature of your posts. One or two gardens and your experts, that's what I find aggravating....gonna re-invent the wheel and do some really kewl experiments. Yah sah!

You do the experiment, it doesn't interest me. I've experimented on cannabis until I'm blue in the face. For starts, compared to other stuff I grow, cannabis culture has become quite mundane.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> So then is this area an area that you did not defol enough? If defol was the answer to this problem then why is it on your defol'd plant?
> 
> this is pretty common when you alter your plant to the point of having an unnatural number of bud sites..
> This I can speak on with much confidence... I am a genetic nerd and know what each of my plants produce... I've said this 20 times, but it so true...
> ...


Excellent point. There is a saturation point where less is more, whether it's too much light, too much water, too many budsites. The plant will find its own balance. Like you said, the plant is gonna adjust. More sites produce smaller buds/colas. Another example is are when you go to a 4 cola plant by topping, those 4 main colas will be smaller than if you had left it with one main cola. You alluded to the limitations - root mass, container, etc. It's also about hormonal responses. Another example which a seasoned gardener will attest to.....say you have an apple tree....if you drop 60% of the flower set, the pea sized fruit, the remaining apples will be much larger and of better quality regarding sales appeal.




> I've done much looking into this area.... fueled by hours spent at a trim table asking myself "how do I get the same amount of weight without all of this bullshit fluffy stuff to trim?"
> The answer was less bud sites. I get the same weight every time. This is assuming my canopy is full. Not full with many many small buds, but full with many large buds. (Less budsites) I get the same weight with the larger but spend many less hours at the table.


Of course.



> I'm not saying you are absolutely wrong.... but... HAVE you tried these genetics without a defol? Or with less budsites?


Blasphemy! Ban him potroast!


----------



## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> I can get the same yields that you do with those genetics, have more consistent flowers and save myself a ton of time in the process. (Labor and Veg/mutilation time/$)
> 
> I can achieve what you are going for "high yields" without mutilating the plant... while you are finding a path to your destination (yield) you're taking a long messy way to get there and I would assume arriving to a lesser destination (yield).


Bingo, give this man a prize!

I learned a long time ago that I was not going to be a slave to my plants (well....not too much LOL). Still am to a degree, but not what some of these people do with methods I find ridiculous - SCROG, LST, "super cropping"....the last 2 being bullshit terms, much less the hassle of going thru all that crap. In seconds, I can top 12 plants to 4 main colas, grow my SOB plan, and be done with it. Outdoors is even easier - take a plant in a 5 gal. container, drop it into a 3" deep hole, kick dirt up against the pot, slip a 1/2 gph emitter into the pot and basically be done with until harvest with very little inputs. Don't even bother with fertilizing as I mix in a 10-12 mo. slow release encapsulated food made by Polyon.....and the horror of it all is it's a 18-4-9, blooms/produces like mad and WITHOUT ANY BLOOM FOOD. Can you believe THAT lol? 

Here's an example, 4 main colas that are so heavy with bud they are leaning parallel to the ground and yes they are stake and tied with plant tape. That plant is at least 4' across with most colas around 18" in diameter. Shot was taken directly from above.



Good luck,
UB


----------



## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

I got an update most everything is growing fast the two that got topped haven't grown much and have fallen behind the one with the burnt stalk looks bad but has survive a few days so I hope it recovers so I can defoliate one of them for the test.

Ok this was feb 3 just before transplant









This was the 8th





Then on the 11th I had a light fall on two plants



Still alive on the 14th but looks bad but the side braching is keeping up with the other healthy topped plant.

I'm debating to repot these two so I can bury the damaged stalk and hopefully have it take off strong what do you think?















I'll pluck leaves tonight on two the four they are very even I was waiting till they filled in the cup with roots and were growing strong so now they are ready.

I want everybody to share there experience and pictures with this method ask all the questions you like This is a learning thread.

I have done the theory debate on this site and another it never ends and it's always the same one side that has never done it debates the plant needs every leaf while those of us that have done it know you pull a leaf it gets replaced fast from new shoots making more branches and leaves than normal.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Just took a sweet tooth i love how the tops look, so agressive  the defols are winning right now IMO


Post up some pics lets see those fine ladies


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I know. I can spot you guys a mile away by the nature of your posts. You do the experiment, it doesn't interest me. I've experimented on cannabis until I'm blue in the face. For starts, compared to other stuff I grow, cannabis culture has become quite mundane.
> 
> UB


iv seen how you debate and i had a good feeling that you would pull that quote out of my post. I checked my own defoliation experiment last night and the vegging defol plants are the biggest still. Buddys freakin out about how big theyre getting. Since youve done this expirement obviously (blue in the face n all), what was the outcome when you did it? Id love to hear about the results that you got. Sorry if the monotany of explaining to newbs why plants that become the largest in the pack are the worst ones bores you these days, but i can assure you that there will always be people that dont just take your word for things without posted proof. You wanna change someones mind you have to show proof of why their theory is wrong, you cant just toss in a couple of plant facts and say theyre noobs. Im scared to ask but how do you feel about the mainlining thread?


----------



## Ninjabowler (Feb 15, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Post up some pics lets see those fine ladies


I didnt get pics cause she wasnt mine so shes hanging already. I will get pics of the defol plants in DWC and post them. I think i have a before pic, lemmie check....K so its the one in the front. She was mite eaten and i tore her to shreds, now she is huge! There is a bigger one than her but that one was also defoliated. The clear loosers of the race are the two that has been left alone. Ill grab some shots of her now in a couple days and repost both together so you can see a before and after. Smiles will follow  *edit* sorry the pics upside down IDK oh and the one thats bigger has been defoliated several times, not just once, could be why shes the biggest lol


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

Mainlining is just combining topping and listing that he hates as with everything else that doesn't just have four tops and as you can see the topped plants are far slower and will take at least a week to start growing fast again I don't think they will ever catch up.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> There are many ways to skin this cat. You are obviously doing well. I am stepping out of this argument by saying this...
> I can get the same yields that you do with those genetics, have more consistent flowers and save myself a ton of time in the process. (Labor and Veg/mutilation time/$)
> I can achieve what you are going for "high yields" without mutilating the plant... while you are finding a path to your destination (yield) you're taking a long messy way to get there and I would assume arriving to a lesser destination (yield).
> 
> ...


I don't think veg time is extended much if any doing defoliation but plant mass is much larger. 

I believe in veg time if you have the space because you can veg for a week and get two oz veg for 3 and you get 4oz veg for 6 weeks get 8-12 oz with two months dedicated to flowering wouldn't you want the most out of the flowering time by giving them veg time under weaker lights.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Since youve done this expirement obviously (blue in the face n all), what was the outcome when you did it?


I stripped most of the foliage on one side of the plants and left the other side alone. Stripped side grew back, bud production was the same on both sides. 

UB


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I stripped most of the foliage on one side of the plants and left the other side alone. Stripped side grew back, bud production was the same on both sides.
> 
> UB


but its the same plant running on the same circulatory system, lmao, your kidding right?


----------



## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> So then is this area an area that you did not defol enough? If defol was the answer to this problem then why is it on your defol'd plant?
> 
> this is pretty common when you alter your plant to the point of having an unnatural number of bud sites..
> This I can speak on with much confidence... I am a genetic nerd and know what each of my plants produce... I've said this 20 times, but it so true...
> ...


I defoliated a shopping bag worth at 3 weeks flowering that would be more than half of the large leaves from the plants I should have done a bit more.

I'll still have a massive yield with a big plant to reflower another 8 oz with no veg time but this time the whole plant will get more light I could even get more the second time with better use of the light.

All genetics are different sure but you are always limited by one or more things that aren't optimal if your containers are small so is your root mass and plant you can force feed a big plant in a small pot but give it a bigger pot now it has more roots eats more grows bigger same with light, food, air movement, hydro flow speed or space as in my case.

Plants grown outside have the best light you could ever ask for that moves all day give them endless good soil water and food you could have a 12 foot monster that weighs ten pounds because it had months of veg time and no limitations we deal with indoors.

These plants were given to me by my friend who grew them from bagseed and the biggist one of the three was three feet smallest 2 feet they grew like typical good christmas trees normal nice average plant with two month veg in hydro with a 1000 watt he got over a pound but just gave some away and kept enough for me to restock him till he starts in the spring he does it in his garage summer only and has been growing since the late 80's like me.

I vegged these totally different with CFLS plus a 400 watt hps till it died not a 1000mh in soil not hydro defoliating in veg makes dense bushes instead of trees with more leaf mass.

My friend will have a much better crop this year we are upping the air and water flow moving the res out of the room and flooding the root tray to the bottom of the pots, he had some heat issues that affected his crop but so did I.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> I didnt get pics cause she wasnt mine so shes hanging already. I will get pics of the defol plants in DWC and post them.


Why are you doing DWC and defoliating? Can't you noobs let go of the forum gimmicks, what you consider "the cool stuff"? Ever thought of being there for the plant as opposed to trying to control its every move (which you can't entirely do, mama nature rules). You want to grow some good pot, then go with soil, march down to Walmart and buy some balanced plant food or Peters, and grow the thing out normally like you would a tomato. Wait a minute, have you ever grown tomatoes....guess I should start there. If you're not a seasoned gardener you should start with Mel Franks MJ Insiders Growers Guide. It's sound, bonafide horticulture, not the kind of crap you'll read here at RIU and other cannabis forums.

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> but its the same plant running on the same circulatory system, lmao, your kidding right?


Of course, what's your point?


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Of course, what's your point?


Well when you alter the plant by removing the leaves and letting them return you are changing the rate at which they can photosynthesize. The phloem and xylem system of a single plant will produce the same amount of sugars and carbs throughout the whole plant right? Its not like it will pick teams lol. Sorry UB you need to go one more shade of blue and try another experiment


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I stripped most of the foliage on one side of the plants and left the other side alone. Stripped side grew back, bud production was the same on both sides.
> 
> UB


You did half a plant once probably in flower and you are now an expert because you guess they were the same.

Your scientific method is nonexistent with no Idea what your doing or talking about get back to me when you have done something.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Well when you alter the plant by removing the leaves and letting them return you are changing the rate at which they can photosynthesize. The phloem and xylem system of a single plant will produce the same amount of sugars and carbs throughout the whole plant right? Its not like it will pick teams lol. Sorry UB you need to go one more shade of blue and try another experiment


The xylem and phloem don't produce a thing. What in the hell are you talking about?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> You did half a plant once probably in flower and you are now an expert because you guess they were the same.
> 
> Your scientific method is nonexistent with no Idea what your doing or talking about get back to me when you have done something.


It was during veg and like your drills, it was not scientific.

....and you can get back to me when you decide to stop talkin' out your ass.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Why are you doing DWC and defoliating? Can't you noobs let go of the forum gimmicks, what you consider "the cool stuff"? Ever thought of being there for the plant as opposed to trying to control its every move (which you can't entirely do, mama nature rules). You want to grow some good pot, then go with soil, march down to Walmart and buy some balanced plant food or Peters, and grow the thing out normally like you would a tomato. Wait a minute, have you ever grown tomatoes....guess I should start there. If you're not a seasoned gardener you should start with Mel Franks MJ Insiders Growers Guide. It's sound, bonafide horticulture, not the kind of crap you'll read here at RIU and other cannabis forums.
> 
> Good luck,
> UB


Things ive growen by ninja bowler...
tomatos
zuchinni
yellow squash
radishes
roses
pattypan squash
chives
rosemerry
rodedendrons
lillys
sage
chia seed
jalapenos
basil
asperagus
lettuce
green peppers
anahiem peppers
arugala
sacred budda ficus trees
chinese pistacio
japaneese maple
brussel sprouts
swiss chard
spinach
red warty thing pumpkins
plums
apples
rhubarb
some strange expensive bush
a salvaged bonzai tree
weed
beets
lemon cucumbers
onions
english peas
carrots
some big ass cabbage
And lots more, im just running out of memory

this year im going to try tobacco maybe....

I like to grow stuff, it makes me happy. You should try and enjoy RIU more Ben, why do you have to a grump sometimes? Heres a couple of pics of my happy vegetables  DWC just grows bigger plants and we all want bigger plants right?


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> The xylem and phloem don't produce a thing. What in the hell are you talking about?


Sorry, i ment deliver, my bad.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I stripped most of the foliage on one side of the plants and left the other side alone. Stripped side grew back, bud production was the same on both sides.
> 
> UB


If you did a side by side like i hope the OPer is doing ( i hope ) between plants stripped and plants not. You would see a difference....or not. iDK, ive never done the side by side, thats why im subbed here


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> It was during veg and like your drills, it was not scientific.
> 
> ....and you can get back to me when you decide to stop talkin' out your ass.


Lets get this right I'm talking out of my ass because I have been defoliating a long time and know what it does with real experience. 

You did It one time to half a plant and the yield you guess was the same. Did you not think it would have been better to do the whole plant and maybe do it twice after more leaves grow back, then maybe It wouldn't be so very clear your talkin out of your ass as usual.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 15, 2013)

I'm on the edge of believing that you might be able to possibly trigger a fight response in defoliating constantly Bud.
Have you noticed any increase in resin production after numerous defoliation efforts? Seems like that might be a potential by product of all the clipping


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

It's not constant I like to do it repeatedly but two weeks apart and in a few days the leaf mass is back and in a week much more then before because there are more leaves coming from more shoots then the original fan leaves would have allowed but by next week we will see what it does.

As far as resin you could be right it is an insect repellant/trap so when the plants are defoliated at 45 days or the first time at 21 it could increase resin or odor to repel the attack but I have never notice much just when shaded bud gets exposed it darkens up, tightens up and does get bigger and frostier.


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## Evo8Emperor (Feb 15, 2013)

For some reason I thin UB has it in his head we cut off every leaf as we see them. Through out veg and flowering. If you just cut off ever main fan leaf off the main trunk alone you will see all the under growth grow back in so fast and a bunch of new fan leaves appear from those side branches. While I still cut off mainly every fan leaf and just leave the leaves by the buds and so long as there not blocking anything else.

I only trim after the stretch and here and there if need be. I try not to mess with the girl's to much in flower.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

Ya many people think we keep them bare no we just create more leaves and stems for more growth. 

I should have started this thread next week when some results could be seen.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Things ive growen by ninja bowler...
> tomatos
> zuchinni
> yellow squash
> ...


My, looks like this defoliation thing might just work! Nice veggies, how much did they get stripped!  I know I wouldn't want some big ass leaf covering MY squash flowers and fruit, no way!

Off topic, but the best mater I've grown in 40 years of gardening is BHN 602. Try it. Next is Big Beef. Works in central Texas anyway, should do fine in all the areas that don't have high summer night time temps.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Lets get this right I'm talking out of my ass because I have been defoliating a long time and know what it does with real experience.
> 
> You did It one time to half a plant and the yield you guess was the same. Did you not think it would have been better to do the whole plant and maybe do it twice after more leaves grow back, then maybe It wouldn't be so very clear your talkin out of your ass as usual.


You only know what I've told you which like everything in virtual la la land may or may not be true. I've really spent too much time on this stupid stuff as it is.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

Evo8Emperor said:


> For some reason I thin UB has it in his head we cut off every leaf as we see them. Through out veg and flowering. If you just cut off ever main fan leaf off the main trunk alone you will see all the under growth grow back in so fast and a bunch of new fan leaves appear from those side branches. While I still cut off mainly every fan leaf and just leave the leaves by the buds and so long as there not blocking anything else.
> 
> I only trim after the stretch and here and there if need be. I try not to mess with the girl's to much in flower.


One of you butchers 3 times during veg, the other just before flower, the other while juveniles and maybe just maybe again if "they are in the way"....while denying the FACT that buds bulk up best when they have fan leaves left all the time. It's all bullshit fellas. There's no science here, only anecdotal evidence with one turbo posting, obsessive-compulsive photographer. I'd hate to see you fan leaf butchers in a chili cookoff, hah! You couldn't agree on shit........you'd all be fighting about when the best time to add the garlic cloves should be, how many, if they should be crushed or diced first, are they best with New Mexico peppers or Anchos, or both, "do we even NEED garlic in Mom's secret recipe......they'll just get in the way". It's hilarious!

Oh, and I get "undergrowth" without doing a damn thing.

UB


----------



## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> One of you butchers 3 times during veg, the other just before flower, the other while juveniles and maybe just maybe again if "they are in the way"....while denying the FACT that buds bulk up best when they have fan leaves left all the time. It's all bullshit fellas. There's no science here, only anecdotal evidence with one turbo posting, obsessive-compulsive photographer. I'd hate to see you fan leaf butchers in a chili cookoff, hah! You couldn't agree on shit........you'd all be fighting about when the best time to add the garlic cloves should be, how many, if they should be crushed or diced first, are they best with New Mexico peppers or Anchos, or both, "do we even NEED garlic in Mom's secret recipe......they'll just get in the way". It's hilarious!
> 
> Oh, and I get "undergrowth" without doing a damn thing.
> 
> UB


We all agree with how and when in veg some do more some less.
In flower some do it different just like chili as if that has anything to do with this, but as usual you have know good argument so you start off on some la la land idea. 

The big benefit is in veg and instead of arguing for months on something you know nothing about you could have tried it once as it should be done not half of one plant once and you guess the same yield.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

> Uncle Ben;8688138]You only know what I've told you which like everything in virtual la la land may or may not be true. I've really spent too much time on this stupid stuff as it is.



You actually spent about two minutes doing it to half a plant LMAO and now your an internet expert even though you didn't kill the plant or lose any yield, but you have spent months preaching against something that didn't hurt your plant a bit and I bet there was more branching and yield but how could you guess that with half a plant LOL.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> My, looks like this defoliation thing might just work! Nice veggies, how much did they get stripped!  I know I wouldn't want some big ass leaf covering MY squash flowers and fruit, no way!
> 
> Off topic, but the best mater I've grown in 40 years of gardening is BHN 602. Try it. Next is Big Beef. Works in central Texas anyway, should do fine in all the areas that don't have high summer night time temps.


People in our line of hobby i think are the best gardeners in the world. We are the only ones who would ever think of doing some of the things we do with our plants so im sure theres not alot of people who say defoliatin is the way. However...if you look at tomato farms they defol to make the plant one main line straight up instead of a big ole bush. And...i had PM once before i really knew about what it was and actually on a squash plant. I had two plants on eithe side of the garden, both were ravaged by PM. One had popped a couple squash already so i didnt care but the other one had given me nothing. I was pissed at the one that had given me nothing so i researched what was killing my plants. When i found out it was PM i did what they suggested and de leafed the affected leaves. Sure enough even though i stopped caring about the two plants, the de leafed one grew all new branches and leaves and gave me some squash finaly and the other one just died. Youll probably find some way to hate on this story but whatever, its what happened


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## Huel Perkins (Feb 15, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I got an update most everything is growing fast the two that got topped haven't grown much and have fallen behind the one with the burnt stalk looks bad but has survive a few days so I hope it recovers so I can defoliate one of them for the test.
> 
> Ok this was feb 3 just before transplant
> 
> ...


I only breezed through the last few pages but...

Am i the only one seeing all the bug damage? Looks the the work of some mites...


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 15, 2013)

I didnt see it on the earlier ones but there does apear to be somthing going on with the last couple pics. I hate those mites. De leaf pronto lol


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

No mite problem the one plant got the stock and leaves burnt by a light falling on it I do have to wash the leaves at least the one's that aren't coming off tonight.


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## Huel Perkins (Feb 15, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> No mite problem the one plant got the stock and leaves burnt by a light falling on it I do have to wash the leaves at least the one's that aren't coming off tonight.


I'm not talking about that, i'm reffering to all the tiny light colored speckles on your leaves.

Here are a few examples of what spider mite damage looks like.

















I could be wrong because your pics aren't the best. Post some close up pics of your leaves.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

That's what I meant by washing them off that is bits of oatmeal I made a batch a while back to feed my big girls. I sprayed them with it now I have to wash it off.


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## Shaggn (Feb 15, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Michigan State University, got my bachelors in ag science there in '77. Such a long time ago. Nice read, thanks UB...


HAHA, now this is funny. You do realize they no longer have the same class or teach from the same books you learned from right?? I hope so lol. It's called advanced learning, not dwelling on the past!! 

Anyways, look forward to your experiment  A side note is if we stuck to what was taught to us 100% and never tried anything new, we'd still be in the stone-age. Peace!!


----------



## fiverivers (Feb 16, 2013)

LOL LOL. 
Why are you even bothering with these dudes Uncle Ben..


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## indikat (Feb 16, 2013)

very interesting BB I wish you well with your experiment, my feeling was....if this is going to work then will need high lumens to compensate for the possible (sorry not a scientific term) loss of sugars from the fans,,hmmm so I did defoliate at 3 weeks flower (hard topped and lollipopped in veg..sorry UB no offence dude jus experimentin) and I will do it again cos on VK it produced what I like


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 16, 2013)

fiverivers said:


> LOL LOL.
> Why are you even bothering with these dudes Uncle Ben..


webee pokin' some badgers with a stik!


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 16, 2013)

indikat said:


> very interesting BB I wish you well with your experiment, my feeling was....if this is going to work then will need high lumens to compensate for the possible (sorry not a scientific term) loss of sugars from the fans,,hmmm so I did defoliate at 3 weeks flower (hard topped and lollipopped in veg..sorry UB no offence dude jus experimentin) and I will do it again cos on VK it produced what I like


Recommend you study up on the concept of a plant's light saturation point. More lumens aint gonna get you nuttin' but less yield. Nice way to bleach out the chlorophyll.

UB


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## Sir.Ganga (Feb 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> One of you butchers 3 times during veg, the other just before flower, the other while juveniles and maybe just maybe again if "they are in the way"....while denying the FACT that buds bulk up best when they have fan leaves left all the time. It's all bullshit fellas. There's no science here, only anecdotal evidence with one turbo posting, obsessive-compulsive photographer. I'd hate to see you fan leaf butchers in a chili cookoff, hah! You couldn't agree on shit........you'd all be fighting about when the best time to add the garlic cloves should be, how many, if they should be crushed or diced first, are they best with New Mexico peppers or Anchos, or both, "do we even NEED garlic in Mom's secret recipe......they'll just get in the way". It's hilarious!
> 
> Oh, and I get "undergrowth" without doing a damn thing.
> 
> UB


First you said:



Uncle Ben said:


> My, looks like this defoliation thing might just work! Nice veggies, how much did they get stripped!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And now this comes out of your cakehole? What is it???

Do you enjoy screwing threads up by making double statements?

MODS...Please take note of what this guy is doing. Pull his post count, make him start over, maybe he will come back a little more responsible.


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## chuck estevez (Feb 16, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> First you said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 guess you can't comprehend sarcasm. What a tool.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 16, 2013)

Dude, you're getting some of this defoliation stuff all wrong regarding specific results. Apples and oranges. I thought I explained the concepts of training using certain pruning techniques quite well and used examples of rose, grapes, fruit trees.



Ninjabowler said:


> We are the only ones who would ever think of doing some of the things we do with our plants so im sure theres not alot of people who say defoliatin is the way.


When it comes to cannabis forums - "a 1,000 flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong".

next......



> However...if you look at tomato farms they defol to make the plant one main line straight up instead of a big ole bush.


Why? Back to training, again. Where I live the tomato farms don't train or defoliate, they use cages to support their plants and get the foliage and fruit off the ground. I'm talking 50 acres of tomatoes outdoors. I am currently raising greenhouse tomatoes (Arbason and Trust) that were developed and bred in the Netherlands, and yes, greenhouse tomato growers usually TRAIN their tomatoes up a network system using clips and netting for specific reasons. Has nothing to do with production. In fact, quite the opposite, they drop half the fruit in order to produce larger, more marketable fruit. It takes so much leaf square footage to make a tomato, just like it takes 15 leaves to produce and ripen one cluster of grapes. No bullshit here, that is the industry standard - 13 -15 leaves per cluster. If you don't have that type of foliage, you drop the fruit to bring production into balance.

[video=youtube;b9bKasAQQuk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9bKasAQQuk[/video]

next.......



> And...i had PM once before i really knew about what it was and actually on a squash plant. I had two plants on eithe side of the garden, both were ravaged by PM. One had popped a couple squash already so i didnt care but the other one had given me nothing. I was pissed at the one that had given me nothing so i researched what was killing my plants. When i found out it was PM i did what they suggested and de leafed the affected leaves.


Of course, why leave diseased leaves with PM spores in the garden? Apples and oranges again. You defoliated cause you had to, due to your lack of disease control. Next time keep them sprayed with something like captan and only water in the morn or find a strain that is resistant to mildew pressure. 

next......

Oh....that's all. And look, don't take my rebuttal's personally. I'm not "hating" on anyone. It's the message I have a problem with.

UB


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 16, 2013)

He proves himself wrong all the time I can think of many times, he just likes to argue because he has nothing better to do he has tons of experiance defoliating he did it once to half a plant and he guesses it yielded the same so that makes him an INTERNET EXPERT.

I took some leaves off last night the rest this morning the topped two are doing ok both way shorter with the same amount of branching as the others I don't think they will keep up.

I've got better branching this time but they didn't start buried in an outdoor garden.

Here's the pic,s they are all the same height and branching first pic two are missing half the leaves.



I stripped all but the top four leaves on the two




A group shot I covered the burnt stem with soil lets hope she makes it but the health topped one is still stunted from being topped so the two are still the same with no more branching then the rest after 5 days so hopefully the topped ones catch up.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 16, 2013)

I think defoliation really let me down I only got this much bud from two plants note the very small top colas at the outside the one without the ice tea bottle is bigger LOL.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 16, 2013)

This one sativa plant topped to 4 main colas kinda let me down too.  Loose stuff was on a wire net drying elsewhere. Dem colas are long and fat. 



Anyone need a wheelbarrow full of bud? 

Come on fellers, wanna do one of those soaring sativa highs!? 



Nice job BB........


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## indikat (Feb 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Recommend you study up on the concept of a plant's light saturation point. More lumens aint gonna get you nuttin' but less yield. Nice way to bleach out the chlorophyll.
> 
> UB


Thanks UB good advice, actually I use a light meter to make sure my Mutts dont get bleached, I run at cica 9000 ft c (90,000 lux) on the apical buds and have 73f enviro with 38 rh...nice of course they are topped for 4 ...thanks bro


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 16, 2013)

About time you chopped that bitch down haha! Did you need a small axe???
Nice pull mayne


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 16, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> About time you chopped that bitch down haha! Did you need a small axe???
> Nice pull mayne


Just about. That poor plant went thru hell, mama nature just kicks my ass, all the time. We had a storm which split the trunk right down the middle, just above the top 2 colas. I used duct tape for a half ass mend, sprayed the wound with plant wound tar dressing so rain wouldn't pond and start a disease, and eventually put it in the ground, the pot that is. If any outdoor growers are lurking, you're wasting your time transplanting a pot plant into native soil, that includes amended native soil too.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> This one sativa plant topped to 4 main colas kinda let me down too.  Loose stuff was on a wire net drying elsewhere. Dem colas are long and fat.
> 
> View attachment 2527680
> 
> ...


Actually I don't think all of it will fit in a wheelbarrow the two colas would fill most of it. I still have at least a oz os popcorn on each not bad considering I stripped leaves off 6 or 7 times and still have three foot bushes for another similar harvest.


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## Izoc666 (Feb 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> This one sativa plant topped to 4 main colas kinda let me down too.  Loose stuff was on a wire net drying elsewhere. Dem colas are long and fat.
> 
> View attachment 2527680
> 
> ...


Yo Tio , love the fat nuggets in the wheelbarrow and yes,I wanna some soaring sativa highs !

Folks, UB is straight shooter he dont bullshit y all, I used to defoliated my ladies and thought to going to make popcorns into colas...till Tio Ben explained depth of the foliages and root system and i took Tio Ben's advice and i paid attention more on the foliage and root system, quit playing around with bottles. Now i have more healthiest plants and more bountiful yield than my old practice with defoliation and bloom boosters.

To OP, im not stopping ya to do the defoliation test, but i feel that you got more buds because of unknown genetic you got but I bet you wont do well with sativa strains without losing leaves in the long flowering period. Please be more open minded about everyone's style of growing and learn tips from each other. I still highly recommend y'all to take Tio Ben's advice and see for yourself. Hope everyone have a best meds to smoke 

happy gardening.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 16, 2013)

Izoc666 said:


> Yo Tio , love the fat nuggets in the wheelbarrow and yes,I wanna some soaring sativa highs !
> 
> Folks, UB is straight shooter he dont bullshit y all, I used to defoliated my ladies and thought to going to make popcorns into colas...till Tio Ben explained depth of the foliages and root system and i took Tio Ben's advice and i paid attention more on the foliage and root system, quit playing around with bottles. Now i have more healthiest plants and more bountiful yield than my old practice with defoliation and bloom boosters.
> 
> ...


Defoliation done repeatedly in veg did this, my friend gave me these plants after growing three nice normal 2-3 foot plants vegged in hydro for two months with a 1000 mh.

I helped him trim them up all three are about the size of one of mine this isn't a magic stain but it is very good.

I used no store bought nutes at all I made my own organic concentrates a lot more difficult feeding plants this fat than just scooping a tablespoon of chemicals.

The test will show you what I mean by extra branching like I have said I should have started next week results will be seen a bit by then this will be a long race the topped ones may never catch up.

I have been growing almost 30 years this isn't a gimmick. I'm sorry you didn't see what defoliation does when you did it but if you were taking an Internet Experts advice like UB who took some leaves off half a plant once and didn't notice a difference I can understand why.

I agree with most of what UB preaches without ever reading one of his threads reharvests topping higher nitrogen and potassium in flower all are old news and have been around forever, If you don't experiment you get stuck in the past.


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## Shaggn (Feb 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> If any outdoor growers are lurking, you're wasting your time transplanting a pot plant into native soil, that includes amended native soil too.


Really? You must not be doing it right. I have a few locations that are just amended native soil (basic blood/bone meal/some Dolomite lime/basic time release. Works well for me, most seasons. Might want to chack out the outdoor section UB, might find some good pointers to help you out. Peace!!


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 16, 2013)

I have to agree nothing like a unlimited root system and full sun for months to really fill some wheelbarrows I can fill two with only 18 gallon pots and 1000 watter indoors.

This year I will put some out In the ground because I won't be able to water every day or week then you will see some big plants.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 16, 2013)

I got so many pics it's stupid If people want to know how when and what was done just ask. 

This was all done in coco compost mix with homemade organic nutes only. Cost in total about 40 dollars and I will keep using the soil and nutes for a reflower and if I can do a third I will but the soil will still be good no chemical build up.

I have seen 5 gallon bucket photos so I couldn't resist, many will think this is a whole plant, not just the colas mixed in that wall of hanging bud on the ends.





​ 
​


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## Guitar Man (Feb 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> This one sativa plant topped to 4 main colas kinda let me down too.  Loose stuff was on a wire net drying elsewhere. Dem colas are long and fat.
> 
> View attachment 2527680
> 
> ...


Some people have no idea what they are missing!!! That fucking Sativa high is HIGH! My Sour D will kick anyone's ass!!!


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 16, 2013)

Guitar Man said:


> Some people have no idea what they are missing!!! That fucking Sativa high is HIGH! My Sour D will kick anyone's ass!!!


Pics or it didnt happen lol


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 16, 2013)

I'm looking to add a good motivating sativa I don't care about yield I can always make it more dense what do you recommend.


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## Evo8Emperor (Feb 16, 2013)

I bought some cannalope kush from dna. Havent popped them yet though. I went with popping the cheese quake from tga first.


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## Guitar Man (Feb 16, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Pics or it didnt happen lol




OK, here are a couple of pics. Sorry, nothing like these other tremendous buds on here, but they are still dank as fuck!! After I grew this, I gave some to my son, who will take a little toke before work. I warned him to be careful!! He is no lightweight, either. So, he takes a reeeaaal small toke the first day. The next day, he wasn't so careful. He called me after work and told me, "Dad, I couldn't back in the fucking trailer strait! I kept trying, again and again!" Well, I began laughing my ass off!! He doesn't take a toke of Dad's primo Sativa before work anymore!!


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 16, 2013)

Guitar Man said:


> View attachment 2528074View attachment 2528075View attachment 2528076
> 
> OK, here are a couple of pics. Sorry, nothing like these other tremendous buds on here, but they are still dank as fuck!! After I grew this, I gave some to my son, who will take a little toke before work. I warned him to be careful!! He is no lightweight, either. So, he takes a reeeaaal small toke the first day. The next day, he wasn't so careful. He called me after work and told me, "Dad, I couldn't back in the fucking trailer strait! I kept trying, again and again!" Well, I began laughing my ass off!! He doesn't take a toke of Dad's primo Sativa before work anymore!!


Dont be rediculous! Those are huge, thanks for adding. So your trick is strain then?


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## Guitar Man (Feb 16, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I'm looking to add a good motivating sativa I don't care about yield I can always make it more dense what do you recommend.


BB, I'm assuming you're asking me about my Sativa grow. I'm good friends with growers in California who are breeders/growers and I was given the seeds to try. I think my friend was laughing his ass off when he gave me these, knowing how kick ass the S.D. was. He did tell me, it's not a full strain Sour Diesel, but is heavy on the S.D. The pics I just posted are the buds I just cured. Right now, I'm growing another one and the harvest on this plant will be 5 times what the other plant was. I used UB's topping technique to get 4 colas, and at day 47, that plant is fucking unbelievable!!


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## Guitar Man (Feb 16, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Dont be rediculous! Those are huge, thanks for adding. So your trick is strain then?


Strain is definitely vital, too me. I'm no pro, but I've done my share of research on growing and strains. I have limited growing space and I want to make the best of my efforts, so I try to grow the dankest, strongest, MJ that I can find. When I'm on my summers journeys this year, I will be paying my good friends a visit and they are excited about giving me more of their special "Potions" to grow. One of my buddies just harvested 95 pounds of primo shit!! It sure pays that I grew up in the 60's, because a lot of my old acquaintances are some of the best growers in the Country/World right now.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 16, 2013)

Nice bud I'd like to see what your doing my two topped plants are still not growing as fast after six days branching no more then the 4 with tops.

Does the sour d give you energy or just a good balance like mine I'm looking for an up high.


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## Guitar Man (Feb 16, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Nice bud I'd like to see what your doing my two topped plants are still not growing as fast after six days branching no more then the 4 with tops.
> 
> Does the sour d give you energy or just a good balance like mine I'm looking for an up high.


The high is definitely different than an Indica. Yes, it has more of an "Upper", energy feel and does not send you to the couch unless you're already tired or sick. I do use MJ for medical reasons, so I try to blend my needs via which 1 to use at the right time. Personally, I don't use any MJ until I'm home from work. I like using the S.D. at that time (carefully, or I'll be flat RIPPED if I take a huge hit) because I don't want to go to bed yet. We eat dinner, watch a movie, and then hit the hay. By the end of the night, I might toke a few hits from my Indica strain which will send me right to sleep, and that is what I need for my back condition.

Don't get me wrong, we (my wife and I) love getting high for recreational purposes and we enjoy smoking other times of the day, especially if we're on vacation visiting all of my California MJ friends. They smoke morning, noon, and night, so when in Rome, do as the Romans!! LOL


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 16, 2013)

It sound very much like what I have strong balanced high a cross between the two.

I'm looking for a clean motivational mostly or totally sativa I have a few in mind but there are so many choices.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 16, 2013)

Shaggn said:


> Really? You must not be doing it right. I have a few locations that are just amended native soil (basic blood/bone meal/some Dolomite lime/basic time release. Works well for me, most seasons. Might want to chack out the outdoor section UB, might find some good pointers to help you out. Peace!!


I'm all about low maintenance while maintaining efficiency. If I wanted more bud, (which I don't), I'd plant more plants. There is a method to my madness - upcan a seedling into a 5 gal. pot of good potting soil, grow it a while. The final pot should have at least 4 drain holes, most black commercial pots have 6. Haul it out to your field and using a shovel dig a 3" deep hole big enough to swallow the pot. Drop it in, and using your finest Nike footwear, work dirt up to the pot. What comes next is what's important. The plant will enjoy the richness of the original potting soil and then the roots will grow thru the drainholes into native soil. It will then benefit from you watering from the pot down. The roots that grow out the drainholes will benefit from the water and NPK salts that you apply to the pot. Your result will be a low maintenance system that aids in plant vigor and production.

Easy peasy.......


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 17, 2013)

Nice to finally hear you admit that you opt for the easy route in lieu of maximum yield.


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## Trousers (Feb 17, 2013)

tldr

Gonna stick to my method which I know for a fact is better for me. 
No point in reading all this junk.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 17, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'm all about low maintenance while maintaining efficiency. If I wanted more bud, (which I don't), I'd plant more plants.
> 
> Easy peasy.......


Some of us would rather make the most of the area indoor or out not by increasing plant numbers you understand you get more time for more plants and if under a certain level just a fine for non med people. 

Watering everyday is not low maintenance while losing efficiency instead of putting the work in and doing something right make it low maintenance fertile and get the most out of your effort. 

The time it takes to do it right the first time makes up for it in much less water maintenance hours less a week and a bigger better fed root system meaning more bud (which you don't want) LMAO

A little extra work by defoliating a few times comes back big time want to see the pics?

If you actually drilled a ton of large 1/2" holes or cut the bottom out of your bucket instead of just using the four or six holes that if you have grown big plants they would clog quick.

They could be useful only to legal med growers unable to dig and amend soil but able to water every day in the blazing sun 5 gallons won't go a day with out water if big, but if you use the factory holes you may not get it big with limited rooting area. 

If you had clay right near the surface then it is a good raised bed for helicopters to find only good for a few people.

Now most non med outdoor grows do it out of town in the wild no daily watering a 5 gallon, so the way to get the biggest plant and best water retention is to veg a plant indoors in a five gallon with dozens of 1/2" holes to a nice big size transplant out near the summer solace to avoid early flowering.

Then if you want the most out of a dry area dig as big a hole as you can and amend well but not to hot and keep at least half the native soil now bury the whole bucket to a bit below the surface. 

Then make a funnel around the top so all water from the surrounding area goes down your bucket hogging all the water for your plant containing it inside the bucket going out the bottom were your roots are with well draining amended soil encase of heavy rain. 

If it is super dry a piece of carpet over the whole area colored to match the area and covered in mulch extra bonus so it won't be noticed from the sky.

What I'm going to do is amend my coco, DE, compost mix at three times the strength to bring a bag of mix with me and two foot plants dig as big a hole as you can amend with as much as your willing to carry but keep at least half native soil transplant funnel the water to the plant from far as possible then I'll cover with carpet top dressing and mulch from the area it really keeps the water from evaporating I'm not in a dry area so I won't bury the bucket for better root movement. 

With endless roots and sun you could grow something worth the trouble Instead of half assing it or growing more average plants to bring your numbers up instead of your skill and defoliation a few times for maximum yield.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 17, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Some of us would rather make the most of the area indoor or out not by increasing plant numbers you understand you get more time for more plants and if under a certain level just a fine for non med people.
> 
> Watering everyday is not low maintenance while losing efficiency instead of putting the work in and doing something right make it low maintenance fertile and get the most out of your effort.
> 
> ...


BB, that's the biggest crock of "advice" I've seen in a long time. Are you some kind of nervous neurotic or what? Carpet, drilling holes in pots, amending soil....are you kidding me? Stupid stuff.......

Look.....you keep doing your fourplay drills, I'll just stick it in and be done with it which includes never having to fertilize or water by hand. 

The way I grow outdoors (and in) results in little to NO maintenance while getting yields to my satisfaction. That's the way I roll. And I know what comes next, you're gonna respond with some big headed, chest beating crap like "my plants can beat up yours". Life goes on. 

Like I said.....get over yourself.

KISS,
UB


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 17, 2013)

That's the biggest crock you actually tell people they would be better growing in a five gallon on top of native soil with four little holes for your roots to get stuck in.

Vs digging a gigantic hole with premium amendments with an endless root mass that wouldn't need daily watering.

You see how flawed that is my last post explains real options outside and be happy with your results I'm happy with mine.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 18, 2013)

BB the fact you say things like, make it funnel, lay carpet ect says one thing pretty loud and clear. You have never used this method or grown outdoors. You even say what I am going too do. Not what I have one in the past. I think UB is correct and your just a noob that got lucky with some good bagseed genetics. Your head has swollen and now your an overnight ganja god.
Time to engage the IGNORE function.....your now the newest on my list....welcome aboard....


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 18, 2013)

The only newbie is you and ben you read a book in the sixtys and learned everything you know be happy in your ignorance.

If anyone has grown outside without making a funnel in the ground they must be a newbie The carpet is the only thing I haven't done.

Putting 5 gallon buckets outside to let the roots grow out from 4 1/2" holes is retarded good only for those that can't dig or make raised beds.

UB actually tell's someone not to plant in the ground because 5 gallons is better bullshit again.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 18, 2013)

*

This message is hidden because Bud Brewer is on your ignore list.

View PostRemove user from ignore list​
I opt for neither, view or remove from list....*


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 18, 2013)

I'm so glad since your still dodging the question on the leaf blocker thread you posted 3 nice average plants with a 400 I show you how they don't compare to one of my plants that got 500 watts.

Ignorance is bliss be happy in yours you don't know any better.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 18, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> That's the biggest crock you actually tell people they would be better growing in a five gallon on top of native soil with four little holes for your roots to get stuck in.


It is not placed on top of the soil, you stupid little jerk. READ what I said and try it. Or is your level of reading comprehension about as poor as your writing skills? You have not tried this mode of planting or you wouldn't be making ignorant statements like "your roots get stuck in". They get stuck no where, Dilbert, they quickly grow to the bottom of the pot, spin out like all plants do and grow thru the holes and root into native soil. I practically had to haul in my tractor to get the damn pots out of the ground they were so deeply rooted.



> The final pot should have at least 4 drain holes, most black commercial pots have 6. *Haul it out to your field and using a shovel dig a 3" deep hole big enough to swallow the pot. Drop it in, and using your finest Nike footwear, work dirt up to the pot. What comes next is what's important. The plant will enjoy the richness of the original potting soil and then the roots will grow thru the drainholes into native soil.* It will then benefit from you watering from the pot down. The roots that grow out the drainholes will benefit from the water and NPK salts that you apply to the pot. Your result will be a low maintenance system that aids in plant vigor and production.
> 
> Easy peasy.......





> Vs digging a gigantic hole with premium amendments with an endless root mass that wouldn't need daily watering.


Having planted thousands of trees in my day, I know what I'm doing, and the above advice is flawed, OLD SCHOOL and plain old "make work" stuff. Unless you're in sand, you never, never amend the backfill with organics because when you do, the plant gets comfortable with that environment such that the roots never bother to root into native soil, especially if it's heavy. They just sit there and spin around in their new pot you just dug. I can see some guerilla grower hauling 6 cu. ft. of potting soil, a digging fork, 10 gallons of water, perlite, etc. up some tree filled hill to put in some pot plants that will soon be eaten by deer and/or ripped off. 



UB


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## cues (Feb 18, 2013)

Best trick I learnt for planting trees from pots is to dig a square hole for a round pot and 'fork' the sides. Helps stop root-spin.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 18, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> BB the fact you say things like, make it funnel, lay carpet ect says one thing pretty loud and clear. You have never used this method or grown outdoors. You even say what I am going too do. Not what I have one in the past. I think UB is correct and your just a noob that got lucky with some good bagseed genetics. Your head has swollen and now your an overnight ganja god.
> Time to engage the IGNORE function.....your now the newest on my list....welcome aboard....


I'm right behind you. Got to give this know-it-all kid a swift kick to the butt first.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 18, 2013)

cues said:


> Best trick I learnt for planting trees from pots is to dig a square hole for a round pot and 'fork' the sides. Helps stop root-spin.


That is some good advice and what I've preached for years. Here's a ditty I wrote on the subject at another site earlier this month. I'll share it with ya'll. Even though a little off topic, the principles still apply to all plant material:*

Concept - which comes first, the chicken or the egg.....roots or foliage? They go hand in hand, can't have one without the other but I'd say too little attention is paid to the root system by gardeners, doesn't matter what the plant material is. Gonna give you an example using other material. I purchased and built in a hay field and started a tree planting campaign around the house. "Finished" with 51 trees - conifers for windbreaks, oaks, bald cypress, maples, pistache, pecan, peach, olive, pomegranate and others I probably forgot. Before each planting I fractured the native compacted clay loam with a 2' deep subsoiler on a tractor, 3-pt. hitch. Dug the hole by hand, planted using no amendments in the hole, stake, rake in slow release Osmocote, mulch, water. Trees sit there for about a year setting a root system and then explode in growth. Same thing applies with my veggie garden which is 1/2 compost 1/2 sand and some native clay loam. Lots of native earthworms. The ROOTS are massive, which produces maters 7' tall and 5' wide. After this rant (meant to make a point) if you focus on the root system FIRST, you'll get your buds.

I often get scorned for making the comment to newbies, "forgot about the bud and ONLY concentrate on producing and maintaining the most amount of roots and foliage until harvest". Of course these are the same folks who follow gimmicks such as defoliation. Whether it's cannabis or trees, you need to let it go "trashy", leave the foliage alone. I found out the hard way that trimming a tree early on to make it "look nice" only produces a much slower growing tree with smaller trunk girth than letting it branch/leaf out every where for at least a year, preferably two.

Uncle Ben *


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 18, 2013)

I told people to keep at least half the natural soil I keep it all and just add things to open and lighten things up while helping with air and moisture retention plus some organics for food so the plant will still spread out fine with a lot more root size, even if it doesn't spread out in heavy clay it still would be a good size pot.

I can see the situations when a 5 gallon buried 3 inches in with a lot of holes drilled so more than four points exist for roots to grow can help people who can't dig but can water daily and don't have to worry about being spotted from the sky.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 18, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I told people to keep at least half the natural soil I keep it all and just add things to open and lighten things up while helping with air and moisture retention plus some organics for food so the plant will still spread out fine with a lot more root size, *even if it doesn't spread out in heavy clay it still would be a good size pot*.
> 
> .


Bullshit again. You've just created a a french drain that will hold water and if there's a lot of rain over a short period of time, will promote root rot.

Copied this, another tweek I've tried, this one posted at the same Riddle3m site.

*For some time now I've been practicing mulching a 5 gallon pot which mimics the litter on a forest floor. I told you guys about adding the panels to my avocado trees but first removing the 4" layer of pine needle and bark mulch - much to my surprise there was many small and profuse surface feeder roots just under the mulch. Mulched my outside cannabis plants with about 3" of mulch too. Seem to really aid in their growth and as you know it doesn't take long for cannabis to produce what I call adventitious roots at the surface. When choosing a mulch I wouldn't choose something like large chunky non decomposed pine bark nor would I choose totally composted black fine compost....something in between. Keep it pulled back a bit from the trunk.

Make it a great day,
UB *


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 18, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'm right behind you. Got to give this know-it-all kid a swift kick to the butt first.


You can't kick any thing but I do believe your right behind him as often as you can.

I have said the hole is dug and amended for drainage the amount of funneling is directly related to the dryness of the area.

As I said you can't kick anything even with months of veg in the sun and what should be unlimited rooting but it's restricted to four 1/2 inch holes you can't do what I do in half the time Indoors*.





*


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## cues (Feb 18, 2013)

I've spent my life working with/studying soil and drainage. It's my trade.
Strangely, that's what I love about my flood/drain hydro system. It takes all the worries away from me and allows me to concentrate on the fun bit, the foliage and flowers. I have enough worries about cation exchange, drainage rates etc at work. My plants at home just need the res filling once a week.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 18, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> * Keep it pulled back a bit from the trunk.
> 
> *


Yeah, who is the asshole laying all of these tree mulch volcanoes? 

When someone has already mulched up onto the trunk, after about 2 years when the bark is all rotted out... do you think it is better to leave the mulch on the tree (covering the area with mulch) or pull it back a few inches from the tree (exposed, butwhere it should have been in the first place)? I see this daily.


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## cues (Feb 18, 2013)

It's kids with strimmers cutting through the cambium layer does the most damage.
Exposed roots are OK. We use it as a technique in bonsai.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 18, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Yeah, who is the asshole laying all of these tree mulch volcanoes?
> 
> When someone has already mulched up onto the trunk, after about 2 years when the bark is all rotted out... do you think it is better to leave the mulch on the tree (covering the area with mulch) or pull it back a few inches from the tree (exposed, butwhere it should have been in the first place)? I see this daily.


I wish I knew! Cover the root collar and you will kill the tree. Or at least stunt it severely. And when planting a new tree it ok to dig the hole wider than the exiting root ball. But dont dig it any deeper than bottom of the root ball to the bottom of the root collar. Digging deeper even if you plan to back fill to keep the root collar above ground you run the risk of it settling, bringing the root collar below grade and wasting all your hard work and cash.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 18, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Yeah, who is the asshole laying all of these tree mulch volcanoes?
> 
> When someone has already mulched up onto the trunk, after about 2 years when the bark is all rotted out... do you think it is better to leave the mulch on the tree (covering the area with mulch) or pull it back a few inches from the tree (exposed, butwhere it should have been in the first place)? I see this daily.


The bark needs air, pull the mulch back a bit, unless it's rock.


----------



## thewizard01 (Feb 18, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> And so is the first photo previously posted. How do you explain that large mass of buds at the bottom levels of the plant, shaded by fan leaves? You do see the incredible amount of large fan leaves? Again, we see what we want to see but that plant speaks for itself.
> 
> I'm sorry you didn't get squat at the bottom. I always do double harvests to bulk up those lower levels a bit. Makes a big difference and not necessarily what I know you and the turbo posting photographer are gonna parrot - "buds need light to develop". When you cut out the bulked up colas, auxins are redistributed and now the lower part of the plant which had previously been regressive becomes dominant, able to enjoy all the plant's resources which includes a well developed and efficient root system.
> 
> ...


Hey UB, you said you harvest the tops and let the bottom growth go longer before harvesting. Why exactly do you do this? Is it because the bottom growth isnt as well devolped or at the peak harvest window like the top growth? Or perhaps something else? I also do double harvests because I have found that after removing most of the top growth/buds that the bottom growth recieves more light and quickly because more devolped. I know you said the the bottom becomes dom. but do you really think light has nothing to do with it? Just wondering. thanks


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 18, 2013)

Without good light good bud doesn't develop well or at all.

It doesn't take much light to develop bud you can see the two good sized buds at the bottom that got light, but I could still clone off some stuff in the interior from lack of light.

These will go thru a whole new bud cycle I put the lights back to 14 hour on where they started I'm just letting the bit of popcorn I got get light before I chop every thing that is developed leaving just immature 2 week old looking tops to reflower.

**


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 18, 2013)

thewizard01 said:


> Hey UB, you said you harvest the tops and let the bottom growth go longer before harvesting. Why exactly do you do this? Is it because the bottom growth isnt as well devolped or at the peak harvest window like the top growth? Or perhaps something else? I also do double harvests because I have found that after removing most of the top growth/buds that the bottom growth recieves more light and quickly because more devolped. I know you said the the bottom becomes dom. but do you really think light has nothing to do with it? Just wondering. thanks


Review my posts on this issue.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 19, 2013)

Update time it's been 3 days since I defoliated two the two topped ones are still far behind. 

All plants have similar branching exept the one that had it's stock burnt it is just surviving no real growth but it's the same size as the other topped one.

I moved the lights to the side to keep these from getting to tall and give the topped ones more light otherwise they would get too far behind I don't want to prop them up if I don't have to.



A big difference in three days since leaf removal first on right and third was defoliated second and fourth not.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 21, 2013)

So after about 1 week in flowering I am seeing the defol plants on average are about 2-3 inches shorter than the non defol. I see a convincing "bushiness" on one plant... could be defol, could be the cut... the other look pretty much the same other than taller on average.

I don't think I want to pursue this test. I think to make it effective I would need to be working from the bottom up. I've got a nice cozy system here right now with the room design to pair with the system. I put my plants in aroun 10-11 inches tall and count on the height to come in during flower... it appears defol stunts vertical growth. Whether it makes up for it in horizontal growth or not I have not seen with just one defol at wk 1. Might be good for some but not for what I do.

I'll be watching your test for sure though. As before, I'm still pretty skeptical that defol is increasing yields for you in the large picture... that includes veg time, effort and such. I'm open to the idea though. 

When you just do it because that is how you want to, cool. It's your thing. But if you are saying this is superior to not using this method you will have people challenging you. That's life.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 21, 2013)

I like a challenge doing the same thing without improvement is not learning it is the status quo average that's not me.

You will be happy with the plants in a couple of weeks this is a long race just wait be very glad you didn't top any that really takes a long time to recover from.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 22, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> doing the same thing without improvement is not learning it is the status quo average that's not me.


That's cool.
I am the same way with genetics. I've always got a new pack I'm working on.. germinate.. cull the males.. back stock/label the females(mothers)... flower/test each females clones... smoke a TON... choose the best... if the best from the pack beats the best from a previous pack then the old one goes to the garbage. It's a ton of work. It takes about 8 months to get through a pack, start to finish. I used to do 2 reg 10 pks at a time. These days I have chilled out.. My veg area is still a jungle though. 
Sounds like we are going for the same thing though. More! Better!.. haha. It's like crack.. it's hard to stop.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 22, 2013)

So what part do your topped cuts take in this experiment? You have 2 topped, 2 defol and 2 normal?


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 22, 2013)

The topped ones were accidents the 23 watt light fell over on two burning the stem on one the top on the other.

The burnt stem one Is almost dead the other topped one is behind.

My dog ate my homework she actually at two tops and most leaves so I had to defoliate them all the only one with good leaves was a defoliated one so they are going to have a restart but still have two with tops.

I'll post picks later.

Ill


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## Evo8Emperor (Feb 25, 2013)

Hope you don't mind figured i'd just post a couple of my before and after pics of defoliating my two plants before flowering.

Before :

Aurora Indica






Purple Wreck






After 9 days 1 week of that Flowering.

Aurora






Purple Wreck






Kinda funny when you see how much growth there already is. Not really looking for your opinions just putting out there for those to see who are interested in what happens when you cut all them dam sun leaves off. lol.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 25, 2013)

Evo8Emperor said:


> Hope you don't mind figured i'd just post a couple of my before and after pics of defoliating my two plants before flowering.
> 
> Before :
> 
> ...


I dont give a fek if your looking for opinions or not im giving you mine...thats pretty cool  does that produce those same monster buds that BB is showing off, have you been doing this for a while?


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## Evo8Emperor (Feb 25, 2013)

I'd like to tell you it did but I am not growing plants that I am familiar with or know if I have a good pheno to produce monster buds. Excuses I know but then again I'm just getting back into the swing of things and made the switch to coco from lp aero and water set-ups.sasad

My last aurora ended up getting locked out late in flower but I still pulled 6 1/2oz off of her. All nice dense bud as well. Not light or airy. I know where I fucked up already though and I fixed it for the other's.

My friend on the other hand does the same as me and he grows some bubblicious and he grows some monster buds. He doesn't make up a bag he finds a bud. lol. From an eight the an oz he gets buds off clones. 10-12 plants in a 4x8flood table with 3k watts and another 1k watt led above. advance nutes and sunshine number 4 mix. no co2 just really good air intake.

He's pretty much my idol. lol. The buds he grows are so dense and beautiful. I have pictures around if your that interested.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 26, 2013)

Evo8Emperor said:


> I'd like to tell you it did but I am not growing plants that I am familiar with or know if I have a good pheno to produce monster buds. Excuses I know but then again I'm just getting back into the swing of things and made the switch to coco from lp aero and water set-ups.sasad
> 
> My last aurora ended up getting locked out late in flower but I still pulled 6 1/2oz off of her. All nice dense bud as well. Not light or airy. I know where I fucked up already though and I fixed it for the other's.
> 
> ...


Pics are always golden but i dont really care about that part, what im wondering is about the defol. Have you done side bys, and if so, what week of life did you do it. Ive done a couple in early stages in dwc and theyve come back to take the cake but theyre not done. I want to know now if its benny.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 27, 2013)

Evo8Emperor said:


> Hope you don't mind figured i'd just post a couple of my before and after pics of defoliating my two plants before flowering.
> 
> Before :
> 
> ...


I will tell you what happens. You slow the plants progress while it replaces the leaves you stripped from it. Extending the grow but not contributing to additional yield. You just use more power and time to achieve the same results genetics and environment will allow. To each their own. I guess its cool to drag things out these days.


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## Evo8Emperor (Feb 27, 2013)

How in 9 days when the plant has filled back out and is ready to be flowered after keeping them both for moms for a while now. I trimmed them up for yield cutting lower branches and sun leaves off and now there are way more bud sites than before.

Yes to each there own when I pull 10oz+ off one plant. My last aurora suffered a lock out due to my own fault I admit it big deal. I still pulled 6.5oz of dense bud off her.

After her two week stretch I will defoliate again. Then one more time 6-8 weeks in depending on the length they are going to go. Finishing in 8-10weeks.

While I will still flower clones and defoliate them as well before flower and it doesn't slow them. I think its more about the amount of light. I take notes from my friend and I look to copy his results. I am just back into things again after him giving me a new card after a year. His results speak for its self not that you guys know, can see, or care. 

He's got no tricks up his sleeve just simply less is more, grows in sunshine mix #4 and stays between AN and Botanicare. He flower's in a 4x8 flood table with 3 or 4k above it. 10-12 clones about 12in before flip. only finish about 24in or a little more. He pulls 4-6 oz though of such hard dense bud is unbelievable.

I myself grow in a coco perlite 50/50 mix. I tend not to believe in specific nutes and I try different things still. I have tried botanicare, GH, AN, Dyna-Grow and still trying other things just looking for the best all around results. Money not being an issue but at the same time not looking to spend crazy money for nothing. Looking to try a round with Botanicare again soon.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 27, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> I will tell you what happens. You slow the plants progress while it replaces the leaves you stripped from it. Extending the grow but not contributing to additional yield. You just use more power and time to achieve the same results genetics and environment will allow. To each their own. I guess its cool to drag things out these days.


You obviously never tried it if you want to slow a plant down for weeks top it if you haven't been paying attention the topped ones are half the size and the branching isn't any better one day they may keep up.

You get more budsites but how would you know that with no experience but I guess everybody is riding Uncle Bmeats coat tails because of his experience defoliating half a plant once and didn't notice a difference but advocates topping that truly slows a plant to a crawl but it's your time and light to waste.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 27, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> I will tell you what happens. You slow the plants progress while it replaces the leaves you stripped from it. Extending the grow but not contributing to additional yield. You just use more power and time to achieve the same results genetics and environment will allow. To each their own. I guess its cool to drag things out these days.


Pearls before swine.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 27, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> You obviously never tried it if you want to slow a plant down for weeks top it if you haven't been paying attention the topped ones are half the size and the branching isn't any better one day they may keep up.
> 
> You get more budsites but how would you know that with no experience but I guess everybody is riding Uncle Bmeats coat tails because of his experience defoliating half a plant once and didn't notice a difference but advocates topping that truly slows a plant to a crawl but it's your time and light to waste.


Yup. More speculation based on one dimensional science. They hide behind their "science" while forgetting that scientific "facts" get continually disproved every day.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 27, 2013)

They have no science they have theory based on a biased opinion the only experience is from doing half a plant and not noticing a difference that says a lot on how limited their experience is yet still recomend topping the most crippling method.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 27, 2013)

Evo8Eperor said:


> Hope you don't mind figured i'd just post a couple of my before and after pics of defoliating my two plants before flowering.
> 
> Before :
> 
> ...


This thread Is about defoliation test to refine our methods on timing and amounts, so post as many pics as you like and what and when you did it and what have you figured out this is about learning from people with real experiance so anybody post your experience.

Nice plants you can see the branches coming out they are fat only getting fatter keep up the good work and keep us updated.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Pearls before swine.


You know it Uncle Bmeat...


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 27, 2013)

[video=youtube;lS-af9Q-zvQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS-af9Q-zvQ[/video]


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 28, 2013)

Just told my homie to cut some leaves off that were nute burnt real bad....good call


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## herbbilly (Feb 28, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Pics are always golden but i dont really care about that part, what im wondering is about the defol. Have you done side bys, and if so, what week of life did you do it. Ive done a couple in early stages in dwc and theyve come back to take the cake but theyre not done. I want to know now if its benny.


I'm not rolling side by but in the middle of my third with variations. I see a lot more prromise from a hybrid between keeping everything green and removing it. My veg was minimal in light and low temps for the first two still chopped 3x veg 1swich 2flower. I feel your growing roots when you defo that regrowth comes from somewhere. I like my branches established more than I've seen so far .The plant tells you when,not how. I didnt know I defo'd till I tried it and reflected not as extreme. Gimme 4k maybe things would change.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 28, 2013)

herbbilly said:


> I'm not rolling side by but in the middle of my third with variations. I see a lot more prromise from a hybrid between keeping everything green and removing it. My veg was minimal in light and low temps for the first two still chopped 3x veg 1swich 2flower. I feel your growing roots when you defo that regrowth comes from somewhere. I like my branches established more than I've seen so far .The plant tells you when,not how. I didnt know I defo'd till I tried it and reflected not as extreme. Gimme 4k maybe things would change.


I have no idea what the fek your trying to say to me lol, you must be as fd up as me lol


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 28, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> They have no science they have theory based on a biased opinion ......


Fuckin' hilarious! This guy is basing his conclusions solely on theory while saying he's all about SCIENCE and I, who have posted real science based on botany am wrong! Gawd, I just spit coffee all over the keyboard! 

Keep spinning BB. You may be making a few dizzy around here, but I still have a clear head. 

One thing I can count on as fact - there's gonna be a sucker bet going down in Troll-It-Up every time I click on a thread. 

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 28, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> [video=youtube;lS-af9Q-zvQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS-af9Q-zvQ[/video]


Great song, legendary band. Back in the late 60's, we used to trip on that album after consuming massive doses of freshly field picked peyote buttons (north of Rio Grande City), either whole or made into tea using Mom's pressure cooker.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 28, 2013)

Two words for this thread:

Main-lining, Nugbuckets


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## Xub420 (Feb 28, 2013)

welll. I had to defoliate mine cause of plant health probs along with mites. It seemed to grow back at the same rate as if I didnt. I had to get rid of a bunch of fans,,,,i was pissed, but, i aint disappointed. They are back strong.it did seem to create a popcorn look going up each stalk. Im expecting long ass donkey dicks. So I will see how they turn out.
These last 2 pics are today. That first pic above is from feb2


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 28, 2013)

His science comes from bizzaro world. You know where everything is opposite from reality...


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 28, 2013)

Look, im following this thread to see how defol works or doesnt. Theres a couple plants and hopefully one or two dont get defoliated so i can see what the control group looks like. 
The plant survives it and continues to thrive after being attacked by things like PM or mites when stripped and that to me is worth learning about and watching the yield outcome. Some claim larger, i dont give a fuck what anyone claims, i want to see proof with controls present.
Do me a favor assholes, go cornhole each other on a different thread cause im here to learn somthing on BBs thread. I might learn hes an idiot, i might see some great buds, who knows but you dumb fucks are pissing me off with your bull shit. Get the fuck outta here. You said your piece UB..you defoliated half a plant and proved fuck all while you were at it now you can fuck off.
Read Xub420s post a couple up from mine. That post and this defol technique could help people with problems with bugs or any number of plant problems and you closed minded retards are makin this thread so hard to follow that the usefull information is being dwarfed buy your own selfish interests. That makes you part of the problem and not the solution and thats starting to make me a cranky ninja.
Go start your own thread with tests and controls to disprove it if you want, if not just get the fuck out.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 28, 2013)

Horticulture and botany have already proven it wrong time and time again. Sorry your too stupid to realize it. If you do not like the truth and facts your the one that should get out. You may learn how to top a plant with your lights. Then start blowing how topped plants suffer most. Welcome to my ignore list Ninjablower.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 28, 2013)

Adious dude, did your book come with a section on what to do when all the leaves on your plant are infested and destroyed by mites? Abiding by your rules i should let it die right? And seriously, if your only here to ride the OP fuck off.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 28, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Look, im following this thread to see how defol works or doesnt. Theres a couple plants and hopefully one or two dont get defoliated so i can see what the control group looks like.


"Control group", eh? And just how much control does that group have? Don't forget the Liquid Light and Bud Candy. Can't grow big buds without 'em ya know.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 28, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Adious dude, did your book come with a section on what to do when all the leaves on your plant are infested and destroyed by mites? Abiding by your rules i should let it die right? And seriously, if your only here to ride the OP fuck off.


Recommend you get some science and learn the life cycle of mites and how to control them. This is exactly what I mean, most of you guys lose leaves because of mis-management....you done fucked up the plant in the first place by allowing it to be attacked by pests. Don't get me wrong, I've been hit bad with mites but I immediately took care of the problem such that impending defoliation was not an issue.

UB


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> "Control group", eh? And just how much control does that group have? Don't forget the Liquid Light and Bud Candy. Can't grow big buds without 'em ya know.


Did you miss the invitation to use the door? Beat feet, go tug someone elses chain, im tryin to enjoy my tea and fucking crumpets.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Recommend you get some science and learn the life cycle of mites and how to control them. This is exactly what I mean, most of you guys lose leaves because of mis-management....you done fucked up the plant in the first place by allowing it to be attacked by pests. Don't get me wrong, I've been hit bad with mites but I immediately took care of the problem such that impending defoliation was not an issue.
> 
> UB


Listen here smart ass. I went into a friends garden and his DWC was destroyed by mites. I defoled his plant and then got him started on a mite program. Your missing the point. This works when you need to do it. I know this is a fact. Now i want to see if it actually helps. If he can pull off the monster buds again ill be impressed but until then why dont you let me enjoy my crumpets?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 28, 2013)

I'm missing the point?



Ninjabowler said:


> I defoled his plant and then got him started on a mite program.


Curious, exactly what is your mite program, Mr. Consultant?

Yank off all the leaves, no mites! Problem solved. Makes sense to me. 

UB


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## kindnug (Feb 28, 2013)

HAHAHA mites destroying my leaves? I don't think so...YANK YANK> I win

NOPE


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## kindnug (Feb 28, 2013)

Those tea and "Cum"pits come with a side of ignorance?


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## akula (Feb 28, 2013)

kindnug said:


> HAHAHA mites destroying my leaves? I don't think so...YANK YANK> I win
> 
> NOPE


LOL amateur. You have it all wrong. The better program is use mites to defoliate. I mean why bother yanking when mites will do the work for you? I buy other growers mites from craigslist to make my defoliation process less labor intensive. I honestly dont understand why people spend good money on killing these workhorses.


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'm missing the point?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well i got him a gallon of mighty wash and a bottle of sns spray. Hes been alternating them back and forth, one every two days and the mites are pretty much gone as far as i can tell. I gave him my humidifier to bring humidity up to 65% and we got a couple over priced ocelating fans to move more leaves. Got any better ideas? The leaves were toast, totally crap in early veg, covered in webs and bugs so they got ripped off. Now they grew back bigger than before and theres no damage to them. Arent you a fan of having lots of leaves? Now theres lots of leaves, and theyre healthy, how hard is this to understand  <<< Im really starting to feel like this man.


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## akula (Feb 28, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Now they grew back bigger than before and theres no damage to them.


Honest question here dude: Why would you think anything different? You said that before they had a infestation and the plant was less mature as well. So why wouldn't the leaves grow back bigger then before when the plant was under stress and immature? 

I havent seen anybody ever claim that cannabis is not a extremely resilient plant. So abusing it does not always cause it to take a downturn into death. And when it does recover, it will try and return to the point it should be at the very moment in its life cycle. That does not necessarily mean that it was in anyway beneficial overall. What would you say if I told you that I didn't strip any leaves off the plant and over the next few weeks, the plant grew bigger and stronger then it was. Would that surprise you any?


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 28, 2013)

akula said:


> Honest question here dude: Why would you think anything different? You said that before they had a infestation and the plant was less mature as well. So why wouldn't the leaves grow back bigger then before when the plant was under stress and immature?
> 
> I havent seen anybody ever claim that cannabis is not a extremely resilient plant. So abusing it does not always cause it to take a downturn into death. And when it does recover, it will try and return to the point it should be at the very moment in its life cycle. That does not necessarily mean that it was in anyway beneficial overall. What would you say if I told you that I didn't strip any leaves off the plant and over the next few weeks, the plant grew bigger and stronger then it was. Would that surprise you any?


Nope, not at all, wouldnt surprise me one bit. What surprises me is anyone trying to say defoliating is always the wrong choice. Mite damaged dying leaves = perfect candidate for defoliating. Theres no reason to argue this cause im right but there still seems to be some non believers


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 1, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Nope, not at all, wouldnt surprise me one bit. What surprises me is anyone trying to say defoliating is always the wrong choice. Mite damaged dying leaves = perfect candidate for defoliating. Theres no reason to argue this cause im right but there still seems to be some non believers


I'm not arguing with that, never had. Of course it makes sense to remove pest infested leaves UNLESS they are still in a healthy state and productive. Give you an example....I once noticed my leaves didn't look right on an indoor garden. Turned over the leaves and there were literally millions of aphids on all plants. The entire bottom surface was covered. This was just before the lifeblood had been sucked out of the plants. I took them outside, blasted them with malathion, they died within minutes and I ended up with a fine harvest.

No amount of scientific logic is gonna convince to leave the plant alone and let nature take its course. Defoliating is yet another forum myth no different than "flushing" before harvest. Some folks, primarily noobs, just HAVE to believe it "works". Well, if eating a rock clears up a migraine headache, then eat a rock.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 1, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Uncle Ben is the king of this troll like activity and his minions follow blindly. It must be sad to lack opinions of their own.


"Pot calls kettle black" comes to mind.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 1, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> I ate brains that i personally extracted from a pig last month, they were frickin amazing!


This says it all. You're more warped than I thought.

https://www.rollitup.org/toke-n-talk/614075-favourite-munch.html#post8556109


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 1, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Ninjabowler said:
> 
> 
> > Nope, not at all, wouldnt surprise me one bit. What surprises me is anyone trying to say defoliating is always the wrong choice. Mite damaged dying leaves = perfect candidate for defoliating. Theres no reason to argue this cause im right but there still seems to be some non believers
> ...


How bout the scientific logic that says when I defoliate I have better air flow and it solves my PM issues? I live three blocks from the beach and it's often very foggy and humid. You wouldn't know anything about that most likely however, being from Texas. That's what I mean by one dimensional science. 

Partial leaf removal has made my crops better, not worse. I don't really care what your version of science says.


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## akula (Mar 1, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> How bout the scientific logic that says when I defoliate I have better air flow and it solves my PM issues? I live three blocks from the beach and it's often very foggy and humid. You wouldn't know anything about that most likely however, being from Texas. That's what I mean by one dimensional science.
> 
> Partial leaf removal has made my crops better, not worse. I don't really care what your version of science says.




Moving the goalposts is the practice of arbitrarily changing the criteria for "proof" or acceptance of a claim out of the range of whatever evidence currently exists in the argument.


Moving the goalposts (or shifting the goalposts) is a metaphor meaning to change the criterion (goal) of a process or competition while still in progress, in such a way that the new goal offers one side an intentional advantage or disadvantage.


Moving the goalposts, also known as raising the bar, is an informal logically fallacious argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. In other words, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt.The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the end result is changed too.


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 1, 2013)

No changing of goal posts here. Leaf removal to help with PM while not affecting yield has been my goal from the start.


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## akula (Mar 1, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> No changing of goal posts here. Leaf removal to help with PM while not affecting yield has been my goal from the start.


Come on man. Just because your particular situation creates an unsatisfactory environment, does not suddenly mean that defoliation is generally useful. Just like defoliating because you are infested in mites is not a good argument. In fact these arguments are actually just silly.


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## akula (Mar 1, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Trolling is trolling go stick the goal post up your ass





Ninjabowler said:


> Kinda wish these trolls will go spooge in each others faces on a different thread so we can party


You sure have become quite the bandwagon bozo recently.


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## Ninjabowler (Mar 1, 2013)

Man, im not on any bandwagon. I want to see how this turns out. I like tests, i like looking past the norm and into the experimental as long as theres a reason. This guy posted some huge buds on my tricks for a huge yield thread. I want to see if it works out again. Sorry for being an asshole because i totally know i am being an asshole, but i dont like all the damn argueing on this thread. Its annoying to look at and im just gettin wild about it. I like bens style, i think your great, im just getting fed up with having to wade through argueing to find out whats going on...seriously, im lost as to whats going on.


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## akula (Mar 1, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Man, im not on any bandwagon. I want to see how this turns out. I like tests, i like looking past the norm and into the experimental as long as theres a reason. This guy posted some huge buds on my tricks for a huge yield thread. I want to see if it works out again. Sorry for being an asshole because i totally know i am being an asshole, but i dont like all the damn argueing on this thread. Its annoying to look at and im just gettin wild about it. I like bens style, i think your great, im just getting fed up with having to wade through argueing to find out whats going on...seriously, im lost as to whats going on.


heh no problem. I know we all get caught up in it at times. I certainly do.


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## Apomixis (Mar 1, 2013)

It's because we are some passionate-ass motherfuckers. You think my paralegal buddy has a forum where they debate legal shit? 
I think it's great. 
O and also, just to be clear, I don't know a single gardener who defoliates roses (page 3 or 4 reference lol) Or anything else really... except for the bonsai guys who want their leaves to be smaller for shows. And some people who grow weed.


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## herbbilly (Mar 2, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Two words for this thread:
> 
> Main-lining, Nugbuckets


 My last run dedicated to beans so I could clean house and do just that my friend. It's a hybrid of the two with a twist imo.


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## herbbilly (Mar 2, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Warped or an educated, highly skilled chef, heres the pics of head cheese, hand made, and some panko crusted brain that i made from scratch. You can fuck off anytime asshole.View attachment 2547711View attachment 2547714


Awesome, spent the first half of my life in restaurants. Pj I use defol and organic potassium bicarbonate spray for pm as well. I believe plants intake pot. and are more susceptible to outbreaks when pot. deficient. I can't find info as to why not to use only some saying don't. I did mold abatement and clean air systems for 7 yrs until I realized it was a sham. Yes environment control is an issue but if it is introduced eradication is laughable short of extreme measures. Seal sanitize and remove everything, install hvac uv lighting in fresh air intake and a preventive treatment plan. A mold swarm is massive I've seen neighborhoods under construction consumed. Shot of current sour defo 3x under low light,70* day -52 night 8 wks ago


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 2, 2013)

JorgeCervantes said:


> ...you yank all these leaves off this plant, the bud will look cool, you'll be happy that you did, you'll think you did something but what you're really doing is retarding the bud. That's weird......KEEP THE LEAVES ON UNTIL HARVEST, pulling them off a day before for convenience.


[video=youtube;xYq7CuVpAeo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYq7CuVpAeo[/video]

That's my buddy! He perfectly articulates the difference between feelings and hearsay and real science. Using a little non-verbal communication like pointing to his head, intimating, "think people, learn some botany!" The man is anal like me too. Notice about a minute into the thread where he uses a half yellow leaf as an example of what to pull but then stopping himself and saying "I might leave this one on for another day or two." ....and that leaf happens to be a shaded leaf at the bottom lf the plant. He's a bonafide horticulturist.

He gets it......is very aggressive when it comes to making his point insinuating that those who yank leaves are a bunch of dumbasses needing some tough schooling, which he provides LOL. Notice the non-verbs, the pointing of the finger, the nodding into the camera.

Having said that, there will be more than one ignorant spinmeister trying to make some lame point that he's outdoors. He might have done this indoors, don't know the circumstances at the time. Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't matter how you want to spin it, noobs, this clip is all about condemning forum hearsay.

UB


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## cannawizard (Mar 2, 2013)

On the fence with this topic, just watching from the sidelines  
..About those genetics you mentioned, which strains did you defol with that responded with better yields? if you dont mind me asking


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## Ninjabowler (Mar 2, 2013)

Ben, your stance on the topics been noted, now can i please read some conversation about defoliation without it being broken up or are you trying to piss me off again?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 2, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> He is a cut and paste grower going off opinion not science....


You are one wacked out nutjob.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 2, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> .....or are you trying to piss me off again?


You're blaming ME for your lack of self control? Put me on ignore.

Looks like I own another one hehe.


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## Ninjabowler (Mar 2, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You're blaming ME for your lack of self control? Put me on ignore.
> 
> Looks like I own another one hehe.


No, your pedantic banter disrupts the flow of the thread and is useless to the information gathering that the participants of this thread are here for. You are making the hair on the back of my head stand up. You must be one sad old man to enjoy life this way


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 2, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> You are making the hair on the back of my head stand up.


Good! Now that I've your attention, it only takes less than 2 minutes of your precious pig brain eating mind to know the truth. And you know what they say...."the truth will set you free."

[video=youtube;xYq7CuVpAeo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYq7CuVpAeo[/video]


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## Ninjabowler (Mar 2, 2013)

Ive watched that exact clip before, even forced someone to watch it because they were pulling off all their fan leaves in flower. I agree with what he says. Bud Brewer doesnt. Id like to see the outcome and we will soon. If his method works ben id like to be able to re read this thread and not have to wade through all the anti defoliation posts by you. Are you scared to watch this thread unfold or somthing? Are you worried that it might prove your theories wrong? Im pretty sure you just puffed out your chest and readied your fingers to type, no way am i worried, letthis clown do his thing so i can laugh at him and do an endzone dance when its done....so do it, when its done, till then go find somone elses morning to shit on.


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## budbro18 (Mar 2, 2013)

And im pretty sure Jorge meant that the leaves shouldnt be removed in the last few weeks of flower.

He said nothing of veg being a bad time to remove leaves.

Someone should ask him that. And even after that realize he is a human who can make mistakes and may be passing down information he was given years ago that he himself has never tested against the opposition. 

Id like to see Uncle Ben do a defoliation grow and see what the results were.

I bet hes never tested it himself. And if he has it probably hasnt been on more than a single strain and more than a single grow.

The way real growers do things is by testing.

I go to the store, convince my shop owner to let me get a tester bottle of "snake oil x" and then test it myself on a few runs.

Take notes and do my own "scientific" studies.

Thats how i came to the conclusion that Snowstorm Ultra works.

If only Uncle Ben tested half the things he disputed. Hes just as stuck in his way as the "flusher vs non flusher" and the "organics vs synthetic"


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## Crankyxr (Mar 2, 2013)

budbro18 said:


> And im pretty sure Jorge meant that the leaves shouldnt be removed in the last few weeks of flower.
> 
> He said nothing of veg being a bad time to remove leaves.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to say it's a fact, but from my personal experience, pruning during veg just makes my ladies bushier. 
I think the logic behind this is that when your plants are vegging, they're constantly growing new nodes and fan leaves so the plant won't be in any real harm getting pruned. But while they're flowering, they only grow so many new leaves, so their ability to store/take in energy using fan leaves is limited only to how many leaves that the plant had prior to the flip to 12/12(or about 2-3 weeks into it, when the buds are forming and new growth slows down/halts to a stop).
But hey, I'm just taking a guess at it.. We'll never truly know the truth about this until someone conducts a test..


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## Ninjabowler (Mar 2, 2013)

Uncle ben did do a test on defoliation....he defoliated half a plant once and it didnt help, thats what he says....sorry ben i couldnt resist. Half a plant though, what were you thinking lol, i can only imagine how silly it looked. That test makes no sence at all but yet you claim to know it all, everybody has a little to learn in life ben


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 2, 2013)

Ninjabowler said:


> Ive watched that exact clip before, even forced someone to watch it because they were pulling off all their fan leaves in flower. I agree with what he says. Bud Brewer doesnt. Id like to see the outcome and we will soon.


You'll believe his biased "outcome" even though it's about as far from scientific as the planet Pluto. Like Jorge said, it's all 'hearsay'....conjecture.

Again, you guys are about the safest sucker bets as Advanced Shysters Liquid Light. Hilarious!

This is what a real series of scientific experiments looks like, by are real professionals. Look at the bibliography, the references. They are all professionally schooled doctors of science. Not some stoner that can't even put together a coherent post.

http://www.biosafety.ru/ftp/domingo.pdf

The bottom line is your type gets a bur in their saddle if confronted with a different train of thought. So what do you resort to? Spin and a mandate to censor those with opposing views.

Nice try......


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## budbro18 (Mar 2, 2013)

None of those experiments are done with cannabis so they are void from this discussion...


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## Ninjabowler (Mar 2, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You'll believe his biased "outcome" even though it's about as far from scientific as the planet Pluto. Like Jorge said, it's all 'hearsay'....conjecture.
> 
> Again, you guys are about the safest sucker bets as Advanced Shysters Liquid Light. Hilarious!
> 
> ...


ben your assuming that his test will work by the sound of things. Do you really think that hed tamper with the results, i doubt it lol You dont need a lab coat to do a test by the way. I did a defoliation test at week five of flower because my buddy that plucks his fan leaves off didnt believe me that its a bad idea, 4 plants, two different "varietals" as hor-hay puts it, and one of each varietal was defoliated of the fan leaves. Damn that was a bad idea. Lost weight and more than just the fan leaves and thats for sure. Thats when i made him watch that video, when i took off the leaves, i pretty much knew what would happen but i did it to prove a point to my friend. Now he doesnt do it anymore since he saw proof. You know i bet you have more posts on Brewers thread than he does, and every one of them are insulting his theories. I have my doubts as well but im not voicing them because this isnt my thread. i know defol has a place and so do you, whether the extreme approch works or not will be tested. Can you just let me enjoy my fucking crumpets please?


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## RL420 (Mar 2, 2013)

Subbed to see this thread unfold because i trim all the suckers off my plants. Would love to see the outcome


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## Apomixis (Mar 2, 2013)

Lol. I think what we have here is... A failure to communicate.
I can clearly see the defoliation, as used by the fine people on this thread, is a cultural method that helps to direct a plants energy towards filling a space fully. No?
i can also clearly see the fact that removing a leaf retards the photosynthate production of a plant. If you dispute this, you do NOT know how plants work. The leaves are there to make compounds that feed growth. No?
So what we have here..... Is a failure to communicate.

also. Removing leaves around a bud will not enhance the bud development in any way, shape, or form. If you dispute this, you do not know how plants work. It is not opinion, it is fact. It's so entirely _*not*_ disputed that asking a question like this in a university level class would get you laughed at. If you think a bud is like... an apple, you are mistaken. See, in apples, the fruit responds to sunlight is various ways like enhanced color or even sugar development. Peaches blush on the sunny side. So do plums and ... you get the point. Think about it. It makes sense, if a plant wants the fruit to be noticed and consequently eaten, its gotta be bright. Makes sense. 
Buds are flowers- _*wind pollinated flowers. *_There is no reason whatsoever for this plant to develop these pathways. So it doesn't make any sense for light to affect flower development. It would be a waste of resources. These pathways don't exist in MJ or plants with the reproduction methods it employs. Period.

See? Everyone is right, in a way.


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## Apomixis (Mar 2, 2013)

Is that it then? Is it over? Who won? You decide! Eeeeeeeppppppppiiiiiiiiccccccccccccccccrapbattlesofhistoraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!


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## potroastV2 (Mar 2, 2013)

Closed by the whiney leaf-strippers.


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