# Three Stadium Shelves - Vertical Weed Pyramid Of Power - HPS+LED vert



## Senseimilla (Aug 4, 2012)

This forum has been a big inspiration for my current grow. I am a personal connoisseur grower who smokes a good bit and is known to share with a few friends - as such I like to keep a large supply, but I have zero interest in running multiple K of HPS lights - nor do I have any interest in switching to hydro - I'm an organic soil dude. Heath's grow thread inspired my idea for the shelves... my plan all along has been to do HPS+LED vertical, something I haven't seen anyone else do. I was going to have two shelves facing each other with the HPS & LEDs in between... then it struck me today how to maximize this configuration... and the Vertical Weed Pyramid of Power was born! What I hope the end result will be is something that looks very similar to the vertical wall of buds in Heath's grow, done with 400w HPS + 1440W LED (480W per shelf) - or 880W per shelf of lighting, each set of shelves holding 15 - 18 plants. I've already got 20 going and going to be popping around 20 more or so in a week or so (as soon as the setup below is done)

This thread is not the grow thread. This thread is the thread documenting the building and setup -- interested to see if anyone has seen anything like this or if it inspires anyone else... and just really fucking excited to see how it all turns out come harvest time.

Anyway, after I going to be building this out this coming weekend, so video to come. I'll post some pics every once in a while for the first grow as well, although my main documentation is going to be in my grow thread linked in my sig.

View attachment 2282280View attachment 2282281


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## vilify (Aug 4, 2012)

i have actually done a hps+led stadium grow. it could have went places, but my current location limits my lighting, so I couldnt pull it off.
i actually also did a hps vs led on either side of the room, and LED honestly held its own with the added little HPS light that was hitting them.

best of luck.


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## vilify (Aug 4, 2012)

subbed as well.


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## OGEvilgenius (Aug 5, 2012)

I think the reason most people don't use LEDs for vert setups is because they aren't very good for them. 

A 600w will put out X lumens in all directions per watt. An LED will provide similar #'s per watt, might be a bit better, but only in one direction. 

They direct light in one direction and are really expensive. They also don't get as good penetration. 600's are pretty much the way to go IMO but you can do well with 400 or 1000s obviously. LED is more supplemental (which it appears is what you're using them for) IMO as they provide a little extra spectrum oomph. A bit expensive for that purpose, but they do last a long time I suppose. 

I will be interested to see how yours turns out. Can't hurt to try, good luck.


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## vilify (Aug 5, 2012)

leds actually have pretty good coverage. you dont need to put them right on top of the plants like some believe.
true that they may not penetrate as much, but lollipopping, lst, supercropping solves that issue.

a stadium style can actually benefit from directional lighting anyhow, at least how I had mine setup


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## Senseimilla (Aug 5, 2012)

OGEvilgenius said:


> I think the reason most people don't use LEDs for vert setups is because they aren't very good for them.
> 
> A 600w will put out X lumens in all directions per watt. An LED will provide similar #'s per watt, might be a bit better, but only in one direction.
> 
> ...


I wasn't trying to say I wonder why no one uses them... HPS bulbs are perfect for vertical... I believe they are working on some LEDs that will work in a vertical setup more naturally, but that wasn't the point of this  I did my last grow all LED, trust me -- they are NOT supplemental lighting -- I expect for the plants to get/use as much or more of the LED lighting than the HPS. I'm not really trying to prove anything to anyone, as I already know if I set the shelves and lights up properly, it's going to turn out fantastical with great yields... I do think it'd be useful to others to see what they might be able to accomplish. As for the LEDs, there is no investment, as I already own both the LEDs and HPS -- trust me when I tell you the LEDs are far easier on the electric bill, so the real expense would be setting up a new 1K light and paying for the electric for that... I do plan at some point to swap the 400w with a 600w -- I used to have a 600w and for me there is no comparison between a 600w and 400w -- it's like night and day as far as intensity -- I may even make that switch prior to them going to flower, mainly it depends on how much extra cash I want to invest. At this point my only real major expenses are more soil/nutes/pots and building these shelves. I do think if I finish with the 400w, it'll be nice to show what a simple 400w + LED could do, but I grew big quality plants last grow with just the LEDs so I'm not even sure that proves much. You could definitely set the LEDs up without the HPS (instead of their position in the diagram above the lights would form a triangle matching the shape of the outter triangle. It would work just as well. 

As for penetration, they do well enough for me. I grow for a trained, even and full canopy, so the goal is always for the light to hit the top buds evenly and produce a lot of large colas. They definitely do do that. I got 3-4+oz/plant last round off of just LEDs from 5-6 week plants from seed. My goal is to get 1-2oz/plant this round (smaller pots and SOG), I expect that is very reasonable. Goal is to end up with between 1 and 2 lbs.



vilify said:


> i have actually done a hps+led stadium grow. it could have went places, but my current location limits my lighting, so I couldnt pull it off.
> i actually also did a hps vs led on either side of the room, and LED honestly held its own with the added little HPS light that was hitting them.
> 
> best of luck.


IMO LED holds it's own with HPS watt for watt no problem. Not sure I buy into the claims that a smaller wattage LED somehow compares to a bigger wattage HPS from some manufacturers. Like I said, I got 3-4+oz/plant last round off just LEDs and not a dialed in grow (my first in a long time) - for all the claims on fluffy buds, my bud density was determined by the strain. Each was different, from airy to dense, just like under HPS. The only thing HPS is a lot better at IMO is vertical growing  Hence the combo.



vilify said:


> leds actually have pretty good coverage. you dont need to put them right on top of the plants like some believe.
> true that they may not penetrate as much, but lollipopping, lst, supercropping solves that issue.
> 
> a stadium style can actually benefit from directional lighting anyhow, at least how I had mine setup


I agree on added directional lighting for a stadium setup (at least in principle no experience  ).

One thing I am still trying to figure out is how I'm going to suspend the lights -- when it was 2 shelves facing each other it was much easier -- was just going to get a clothes rack, hang the hps from the center and put the LEDs on the side supports -- but that will not work for this confiuration. I may have to build a support and attach to the ceiling - but that would make the configuration less mobile/adaptable.

Edit: Now that I think about it, when we are building the shelves it will probably not be too difficult to build a custom support structure for the lights.

Like this:


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## Senseimilla (Aug 5, 2012)

Actually just realized this would probably be a better setup


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## vilify (Aug 5, 2012)

I also agree with that. I am currently in pre-planning stage for a custom 900watt LED light. 
Going to put the myth's to rest, with my own choice of diodes, I think I can match, if not out-do an HPS.'
I never had an issue with fluffy buds under my LED, other than a few plants that were hit with heat issues, etc.

Yeah, your setup is quite different. Your solution seems like it would do the job.
I was running mine on 3 sides of the room, setup like you had originally planned, with the last connection between the 2 facing eachother on the 3rd wall.
Running the hps vert in the center, you could do:


i think that is a detailed enough drawing to show what i mean. picture has words on the left pic to show what is a leg and what is an arm.
essentially building like an artificial glass tube for the HPS. 3 wood/metal posts around the HPS, maybe some treated glass or whatever and a fan could be added for removing heat


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## Senseimilla (Aug 5, 2012)

Are you building your own LED or buying one with customized spectrums (like apollo)? I definitely wish there were more whites in mine (for intensity) -- it's one reason i like the veg -- it has more white and the blue offsets the red it's just more intense.

Your setup would also work... i think the triangular 2nd version i came up with works best for suspending the HPS in the middle without blocking the light from reaching the plants though as well as stability. of course it'll be on wheels as well  

As far as putting the myth to rest, doesn't matter what you do some people are never gonna admit an LED can match HPS  and for most the cost is the big factor as well -- but i'm saving a lot on electricity, and the cost was less than the value of the first harvest, even at wholesale rates.



vilify said:


> I also agree with that. I am currently in pre-planning stage for a custom 900watt LED light.
> Going to put the myth's to rest, with my own choice of diodes, I think I can match, if not out-do an HPS.'
> I never had an issue with fluffy buds under my LED, other than a few plants that were hit with heat issues, etc.
> 
> ...


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## vilify (Aug 5, 2012)

Senseimilla said:


> Are you building your own LED or buying one with customized spectrums (like apollo)? I definitely wish there were more whites in mine (for intensity) -- it's one reason i like the veg -- it has more white and the blue offsets the red it's just more intense.
> 
> Your setup would also work... i think the triangular 2nd version i came up with works best for suspending the HPS in the middle without blocking the light from reaching the plants though as well as stability. of course it'll be on wheels as well
> 
> As far as putting the myth to rest, doesn't matter what you do some people are never gonna admit an LED can match HPS  and for most the cost is the big factor as well -- but i'm saving a lot on electricity, and the cost was less than the value of the first harvest, even at wholesale rates.


i will be building it from scratch.
yeah, people just refuse to accept new things sometimes. it happens.

well for my hps' (i dont go cheap, lol) $300 ballast, $180 hood, $120 bulb. upfront costs, $600. add $120/year after that. 
vs the 10 years i will likely get off my led's without a change. $1000 in bulbs in that same timeframe.
$1000 for a 900w led(that is how much i have priced my panel out to be), vs $1600 for a 1000w HPS setup. not to mention what that 100w difference would make in that time frame as well.

but i dont have to make this argument to you.. lol

i also just thought..
if you can find a cooltube without the reflector, or just buy this 1 and remove it
http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-Straight-6-Reflector.asp

then build the center based on that that. if air cooling was something you were looking at.

if not, yours would work perfect.


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## Theowl (Aug 5, 2012)

Present and accounted for. The plans look good, I like the revisions! And vilify, awesome setup idea. See, more eyes....

Im in, we'll see bout the Vman...


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## OGEvilgenius (Aug 5, 2012)

I've seen some of the vertical LED bulbs. They're not promising IMO because the diodes are the root of the problem - they are all directed. 

What are promising (if we're talking future lighting) are plasma bulbs, right now they're built in a really stupid way, but I could see them being really awesome if done a little differently - I admittedly do not understand the design perimeters for them, but I'm pretty sure LEDs will always be inefficient for growing plants just because of the nature of the diodes - at least when talking vertically.

Horizontally I think an LED can do exceptionally well. 

This however, is just my belief. Please guys, innovate and prove me wrong.

If you built a custom LED for vertical I still think you're going to end up with less lumens for your plants and it's not gonna compare because of the directed nature, but hey - I guess we'll see won't we?


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## Theowl (Aug 6, 2012)

I'm pretty sure the directional nature of the panels is what we're trying to capitalize on here. Six panels, two illuminating each shelf.


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## Senseimilla (Aug 6, 2012)

Here's my updated diagram for the shelves

No shelves, just supports. I'm going to put the pots in shallow rubbermaid bins so when I water I just pull a tray with several plants out and water next to the shelf flat on the ground. Then just put the tray back and get the next one. No adjustable shelves needed or taking off and putting on 40-50 pots each watering  Will get some kind of drip/spray irrigation put in down the line.


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## OGEvilgenius (Aug 6, 2012)

I guess my point is this: if you do the classic Heath Robinson, to get 600w of lumens in all directions like a 600w HPS will provide, you will need either an octogon or square of panels putting out a lot of light on each side, maybe a bit less in pure wattage due to better spectrum and more efficient power draw, but you're still gonna be way over what a 600w HPS will draw. 

And really it isn't possible for LEDs to provide that uniform 600w of lumens in all directions like a HPS provides.

Now if you can get away with less because of the improved spectrum, I guess we will see. I am curious to see how this goes and I do want you guys to prove me wrong. 

Don't think I'm hating. These are just my thoughts on LEDs and efficient growing. I am all about efficiency. I think the Plasma bulbs have huge potential but I need to learn more and there isn't a lot of info readily available.

I also think that no question what Sensi is doing is going to improve his efficiency as well.


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## vilify (Aug 7, 2012)

well there is no mention of an LED only vertical grow.

i am soon to be starting my testing on a few ways to use LED to improve the efficiency of a grow.
then writing an article on my findings. details on that will have to wait, but I think it will be well worth it.

IMO led companies are doing it wrong, and I will be working to find the best LED panel setup for growing marijuana.


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