# Cloning a clone of a clone?



## green_machine_two9er (Jul 17, 2014)

Ive always thought(not sure why) Cloning a 2nd generation Plant will cause hermies/ stress, basically bad news?Is there any truth to this.
Mother>Clone>Clone>?this generation?
I want to Keep my lemon skunk as its one of My favorite strains but have no more seeds.


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## dankdope (Jul 17, 2014)

probably a lot of haters of that practise on here but a good friend of mine hasn't used mother plants for over 10 years, just always cloned from clones 2nd week into flower. the only downside of it is if you stuff up a new batch of clones it takes a while to get a new lot ready because of reveg. hes been running the same strain for over 12 years and no problems from it and consistently no apparent loss of vigour or yeild


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## GroErr (Jul 17, 2014)

I used mothers but also clones from clones for years outdoor with no real problems other than one plant that I had cloned and used as a mother eventually started showing up hermies, but I'm talking 5-6 years I had that strain going. Grabbing clones from existing plants, then cloning those a few times seems like pretty common practice in perpetual grows. Eventually I believe there is degradation, resulting in hermies and less vigour but imo you can run a couple of years with no significant issues doing this. I'm running a JTR clone from a clone in my current run, it's no different than the original plant in size or bud coverage.


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## green_machine_two9er (Jul 17, 2014)

dankdope said:


> probably a lot of haters of that practise on here but a good friend of mine hasn't used mother plants for over 10 years, just always cloned from clones 2nd week into flower. the only downside of it is if you stuff up a new batch of clones it takes a while to get a new lot ready because of reveg. hes been running the same strain for over 12 years and no problems from it and consistently no apparent loss of vigour or yeild


hmm interesting, i would be making this 2nd gen plant into a mother ad be keeping her around for a while. 
As long as seeds and bananas dont start popping im happy. thanks for input


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## green_machine_two9er (Jul 17, 2014)

GroErr said:


> I used mothers but also clones from clones for years outdoor with no real problems other than one plant that I had cloned and used as a mother eventually started showing up hermies, but I'm talking 5-6 years I had that strain going. Grabbing clones from existing plants, then cloning those a few times seems like pretty common practice in perpetual grows. Eventually I believe there is degradation, resulting in hermies and less vigour but imo you can run a couple of years with no significant issues doing this. I'm running a JTR clone from a clone in my current run, it's no different than the original plant in size or bud coverage.


Great thankyou. will be taking clones this weekend.


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## Deusracing (Jul 17, 2014)

green_machine_two9er said:


> hmm interesting, i would be making this 2nd gen plant into a mother ad be keeping her around for a while.
> As long as seeds and bananas dont start popping im happy. thanks for input


This is an excellent thread the strain I'm growing now was a 20 year old strain its PK Ripper Midwesterns finest.. Not sure how many generations my plant is but the picture I'm gonna posts shows the clone i received a few months back.. i took 21 cuttings from her and they are vegging beautifully... this is her late 4th week of 12/12 growing along side of a few of her girls in 1L Air pots... I say Grow it till it PUKES


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Jul 17, 2014)

I routinely clone off of ladies I like to save the genetics.
5-6 generations with no issues thus far.


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## Sativied (Jul 17, 2014)

green_machine_two9er said:


> Ive always thought(not sure why) Cloning a 2nd generation Plant will cause hermies/ stress, basically bad news?Is there any truth to this.


No.


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## Jimmyjonestoo (Jul 17, 2014)

I don't really have room for mothers so I've always cloned from clones. No issues yet .


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## green_machine_two9er (Jul 17, 2014)

thanks for all the input on this subject. seems like the consensus is clone away.


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## racerboy71 (Jul 17, 2014)

think of all of the clone only strains that have been around for years and years.. i think uk cheese has been going since the 80s, around 88'ish, idk, i forget.. gsc, all of these og clones, real bubba kush, blue dream, the list is pretty endless..
if what you are talking about happened, none of these strains would be as highly sought after as they are, and people woulnd't be paying huge money for super exclusive cuts..


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## green_machine_two9er (Jul 17, 2014)

racerboy71 said:


> think of all of the clone only strains that have been around for years and years.. i think uk cheese has been going since the 80s, around 88'ish, idk, i forget.. gsc, all of these og clones, real bubba kush, blue dream, the list is pretty endless..
> if what you are talking about happened, none of these strains would be as highly sought after as they are, and people woulnd't be paying huge money for super exclusive cuts..


i always thought these genetics were saved through propagation.


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## racerboy71 (Jul 17, 2014)

green_machine_two9er said:


> i always thought these genetics were saved through propagation.


 what do you mean by propagation? when you think of it, every single say for instance blue dream clone all came from the same mother.. idk how old blue dream is, idk yet's go with 10 years old for shits and giggles.. so, for 10 years now, every single cut of blue dream is generations upon generation from the same mother plant.. pretty much the same for all clone only's.. sure, some people might start a new mom now and then, but in reality, they all came from one place..


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## BDOGKush (Jul 17, 2014)

What if the plant experiences an extreme amount of stress during a generation and its the only plant you have to clone from?

I have a cut of cheese that went through a horrible spider mite infestation, I got rid of the infestation and cloned the plant. I can no longer pull the same yield as I used to with it. It's just not the same plant anymore IMO.

Racer, Sativied, thoughts? Lol


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Jul 17, 2014)

racerboy71 said:


> what do you mean by propagation? when you think of it, every single say for instance blue dream clone all came from the same mother.. idk how old blue dream is, idk yet's go with 10 years old for shits and giggles.. so, for 10 years now, every single cut of blue dream is generations upon generation from the same mother plant.. pretty much the same for all clone only's.. sure, some people might start a new mom now and then, but in reality, they all came from one place..


The mothers I have are all clones.
And they love me for keeping them around.


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## green_machine_two9er (Jul 17, 2014)

racerboy71 said:


> what do you mean by propagation? when you think of it, every single say for instance blue dream clone all came from the same mother.. idk how old blue dream is, idk yet's go with 10 years old for shits and giggles.. so, for 10 years now, every single cut of blue dream is generations upon generation from the same mother plant.. pretty much the same for all clone only's.. sure, some people might start a new mom now and then, but in reality, they all came from one place..


Sorry Meant Propagation as in sexual reproduction to create seeds. like when i order seeds those seeds come from a female that has been bread with male plant. male and female are both Blue dream, thus blue dream seeds and genetics passed on through next generation.


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## racerboy71 (Jul 17, 2014)

BDOGKush said:


> What if the plant experiences an extreme amount of stress during a generation and its the only plant you have to clone from?
> 
> I have a cut of cheese that went through a horrible spider mite infestation, I got rid of the infestation and cloned the plant. I can no longer pull the same yield as I used to with it. It's just not the same plant anymore IMO.
> 
> Racer, Sativied, thoughts? Lol


 actually, and i know this will rile up a few people, but i have heard that gorrila glue 4 has recently had something like this happen to it.. i've heard, and idk how true it is, but the dude saying i think is pretty reputable, so i kind of believed it, said that gg4 has recently had something along the same lines happen to it. i forget what he said it was exactly now, but he said that pretty much all of the new gg4 clones are no good.. not no good, but not nearly as good as the clone before w/e happened to it recently..
so sure, i believe that stress, mites, p/m, pretty much anything like that, could severely damage a plant far enough that even it's offsrping won't bounch back.. that's why they always tell you to make sure the mother is in as good as shape as she can be..


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## green_machine_two9er (Jul 17, 2014)

BDOGKush said:


> What if the plant experiences an extreme amount of stress during a generation and its the only plant you have to clone from?
> 
> I have a cut of cheese that went through a horrible spider mite infestation, I got rid of the infestation and cloned the plant. I can no longer pull the same yield as I used to with it. It's just not the same plant anymore IMO.
> 
> Racer, Sativied, thoughts? Lol


Since stress Can cause some pretty strange genetic mutations, my GUESS would be yes traits could be passed to clone which is genetic copy. I


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## racerboy71 (Jul 17, 2014)

green_machine_two9er said:


> Sorry Meant Propagation as in sexual reproduction to create seeds. like when i order seeds those seeds come from a female that has been bread with male plant. male and female are both Blue dream, thus blue dream seeds and genetics passed on through next generation.


 sure, seeds are always going to be hardier, usually stronger over all plants then clones. seeded plants are less likely to get diseases. pm, etc, etc then clones.. after awhile, clones will just be more succeptable to these things..
as to the second part, how do you make seeds from clones where there's only a mother plant that was ever created, and no dad of the same plant? sure, you could s1 them with some cs i guess, but not every strain will throw nanners when the use of chemicals are applied to them...
if you happen to know what the genetics of a strain are, like blue dream is blueberry x ssh, you can always find a nice ssh and a nice blueberry, and breed them together, but is that every really going to be exactly like the clone only blue dream where i'm sure a special pheno of each was used? well, i guess it depends on who is doing the breeding.. i've seen a lot of grows of hso's blue dream, and i'm not saying they're not nice plants, i'm just saying i've seen some very indica leaning phenos where as the clone only is nothing indica about it..very thin leaves, a nice stretch in flower, and about a 10 or 11 week flower time, depending on how you like your smoke.


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## BDOGKush (Jul 17, 2014)

Right, that was my thought on the matter and recently had a friend argue with me for over an hour on the subject because he doesn't want to see this cut go. This cut used to pull 2+ oz a plant just lolipopping and letting it do its thing, hardly pulls an ounce a plant under exact same feeding regiment and grow conditions anymore. Potency is still there, taste and smell are there, just grows weak branches and smaller, slightly fluffier buds now.


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## green_machine_two9er (Jul 17, 2014)

racerboy71 said:


> sure, seeds are always going to be hardier, usually stronger over all plants then clones. seeded plants are less likely to get diseases. pm, etc, etc then clones.. after awhile, clones will just be more succeptable to these things..
> as to the second part, how do you make seeds from clones where there's only a mother plant that was ever created, and no dad of the same plant? sure, you could s1 them with some cs i guess, but not every strain will throw nanners when the use of chemicals are applied to them...
> if you happen to know what the genetics of a strain are, like blue dream is blueberry x ssh, you can always find a nice ssh and a nice blueberry, and breed them together, but is that every really going to be exactly like the clone only blue dream where i'm sure a special pheno of each was used? well, i guess it depends on who is doing the breeding.. i've seen a lot of grows of hso's blue dream, and i'm not saying they're not nice plants, i'm just saying i've seen some very indica leaning phenos where as the clone only is nothing indica about it..very thin leaves, a nice stretch in flower, and about a 10 or 11 week flower time, depending on how you like your smoke.


Very true. The genetics intrigue me, Just started Purple Paralysis by Cream of the Crop. Supposed to be a mainly sativa but mine looks more like a pure indica large fat leaves with 3 fans. I also have some Cotton Candy by Delicious which is the exact mix of genetics (Lavendor X Power Plant) just different breeder. I am going to pop of few of those Cotton Candy just to see the difference in the same Genetics but somehow obviously very different strains? maybe, not sure well see.


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## Deusracing (Jul 17, 2014)

Glad i kept some o ft he OG seeds i got from my buddy..


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## Sativied (Jul 17, 2014)

BDOGKush said:


> I have a cut of cheese that went through a horrible spider mite infestation, I got rid of the infestation and cloned the plant. I can no longer pull the same yield as I used to with it. It's just not the same plant anymore IMO.
> 
> Racer, _Sativied, thoughts_? Lol


Tissue culture. 

No degradation takes place when cloning clones as long as the plant you take the clone from is healthy. Although a clone is a genetic copy (and unlike someone posted stressing doesn't cause all sorts of genetic mutations) a clone doesn't get the same fresh start a seed does, so nurture applied to the mother is passed on to the clone unlike with seeds. A way to get a similar fresh start from just the original genetics but still as a clone is tissue culture. At least, clone revival is a claimed benefit/advantage. Hey you asked for thoughts, not suggestions


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## racerboy71 (Jul 17, 2014)

you ever tried tissue culture sativied? i know i'm too much of a slob to be able to keep the environments needed for successful t.c., so i've never really looked into it too hard..


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## Sativied (Jul 17, 2014)

Nah, would love too grow "plantlets" but I don't have a suitable environment for it either. It also seems like an entire hobby and study by itself just to get the right ingredients. I hope some day there will be pre-made cannabis specific easy to use kits.

http://www.pakbs.org/pjbot/PDFs/41(2)/PJB41(2)603.pdf


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## charface (Jul 17, 2014)

I would be more concerned about passing along any disease.
As long as you keep up that shit no worries


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## Aeroknow (Jul 18, 2014)

charface said:


> I would be more concerned about passing along any disease.
> As long as you keep up that shit no worries


IMO, this is most important for keeping your favorite strain around for a long time.
After all, the longer a plant is alive, the better of a chance it's had to pick up a virus or some shit.
Remember the rumor " genetic drift will degrade the strain with time/age"? Well we ALL know thats bullshit now, as it takes male and female parents creating offspring to make that happen.
I have a very special wifi(my fire leaning one)rite now that's sort of taking a shit. Probably my friends fault.....lol. Anyways, it's getting harder than hell to clone it, and I sware, it won't grow past 3 blades indoors. Are the two related? I dunno, but I'm about to snap some cuts from this pheno, growing outdoors, and I'm almost positive it's back. I've "fixed" a couple other strains that were worse off than this wifi. Some sort of virus I suspect, that I don't understand, but taking cuts from the quick growing-new growth of the monster outdoor plant, doesn't have the virus in it?
Alls, I know is, we can't blame everything on pythium anymore. Or can we? Lol


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## DemonTrich (Jul 18, 2014)

ive taken clones from clones of clones for almost 2 yrs now. I keep "mothers", but those are plants im not currently running in my rotation due to me having 3 fire strains that take 1st dibs on any and all room in my flower room.



racer, are you talking about the infamous "dud" issues that some GG#4 plants were having? ive never heard of any hermie issues with GG#4. nothing on icmag nor anything from JW (breeder of GG#4) about it either.


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## Aeroknow (Jul 18, 2014)

I was getting some "duds" from a club in the bay area a few years back. Word was, it was from residual broad mite secretrions, that were still there, from the clone nursery at one time having broad mites. Not sure about that one. Who knows

The "duds" were just a shadow of what the strain is/was. Small fan leaves, and stunted growth. You could tell within a couple weeks of flower. In the trash they would go. I never tried to "fix" that problem lol


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## Sand4x105 (Jul 18, 2014)

green_machine_two9er said:


> Ive always thought(not sure why) Cloning a 2nd generation Plant will cause hermies/ stress, basically bad news?Is there any truth to this.
> Mother>Clone>Clone>?this generation?
> I want to Keep my lemon skunk as its one of My favorite strains but have no more seeds.


Maybe the confusion would stop on the "POT" forums, if the dis believers in cloning a clone would just look up the definition of "CLONE".....
------------------------
It's like WTF...
I seriously do not understand why anyone grows from seeds after they have grown a couple of plants...
Grow Clones... Mother, or a clone of a clone... it's just too easy...
Every plant is the same....
Every clone finishes the same...
You never need to worry, about when to flip the switch, because the last clone you grow will be exactly as your last clone you grew....
Your next clone will be the same great smoke as your last clone...
The bud I grow today... is the same as the bud I grew last year...
Taste, high, everything....
And... the taste.... the high? *P-E-R-F-E-C-T*
No guess work... 
I mean, you have grown a few plants... you know what you like [me I grow a very short photo period plant that finishes in my bud room in 49 days...] Yes, refine your clones, and start cloning today...
I don't understand, if you understand growing.... why you do not clone....


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## Doer (Jul 18, 2014)

A clone can only be as healthy as it's mother.

Mother the clones to make good mothers for clones.


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## racerboy71 (Jul 18, 2014)

DemonTrich said:


> ive taken clones from clones of clones for almost 2 yrs now. I keep "mothers", but those are plants im not currently running in my rotation due to me having 3 fire strains that take 1st dibs on any and all room in my flower room.
> 
> 
> 
> racer, are you talking about the infamous "dud" issues that some GG#4 plants were having? ive never heard of any hermie issues with GG#4. nothing on icmag nor anything from JW (breeder of GG#4) about it either.


 yes, not hermie prone, but dud, doesn't frost up nearly the same as the old strain, not as potent, etc, etc.. idk what happened, i read it, and forgot about it..


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## qwizoking (Jul 18, 2014)

Every time I clone my master she's a bit different, makes me sad. Smells changed mainly, structure is the same. Didn't take anymore clones this round, on to the next
My 2¢


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## BDOGKush (Jul 18, 2014)

Sativied said:


> Tissue culture.
> 
> No degradation takes place when cloning clones as long as the plant you take the clone from is healthy. Although a clone is a genetic copy (and unlike someone posted stressing doesn't cause all sorts of genetic mutations) a clone doesn't get the same fresh start a seed does, so nurture applied to the mother is passed on to the clone unlike with seeds. A way to get a similar fresh start from just the original genetics but still as a clone is tissue culture. At least, clone revival is a claimed benefit/advantage. Hey you asked for thoughts, not suggestions


And again I learn something knew, I didn't know about tissue culture and after reading about it I'm not sure if I could even pull it off.

So as long as you keep your clone line healthy, you'll always have the same plant no matter how many times you clone off of it.


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## green_machine_two9er (Jul 18, 2014)

Sand4x105 said:


> Maybe the confusion would stop on the "POT" forums, if the dis believers in cloning a clone would just look up the definition of "CLONE".....
> ------------------------
> It's like WTF...
> I seriously do not understand why anyone grows from seeds after they have grown a couple of plants...
> ...


thanks for reply. Maybe i was unclear I do and have cloned for as long as i can remember. MY method has always been to keep mothers around for up to a year and have a constant supply of great clones. however I ran out of mothers on Lemon skunk and just wanted to debunk this theory of degradation over generations of cloning. which i am satisfied Now was complete horse shit that i picked up from local grow store jibber jabber. 
Thanks Sand! and i agree i starting growing this strain over 2 years ago, had six seeds which i found my favorite pheno which now has been exceeding my expectations consistently. It is great to No exactly what to expect, This is why i started this thread, just wanted to make sure my prized strain wasn't going to start going downhill.


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## greasemonkeymann (Jul 18, 2014)

racerboy71 said:


> think of all of the clone only strains that have been around for years and years.. i think uk cheese has been going since the 80s, around 88'ish, idk, i forget.. gsc, all of these og clones, real bubba kush, blue dream, the list is pretty endless..
> if what you are talking about happened, none of these strains would be as highly sought after as they are, and people woulnd't be paying huge money for super exclusive cuts..


 this is a great point, I've been cloning from clones for years, and years, haven't EVER had a plant hermie that didn't already be prone to already.
NEVER, and I swear I've cloned hundreds if not over a thousand in my life.


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## greasemonkeymann (Jul 18, 2014)

although, the only negative thing i'd say is an issue, is this, I HAVE seen an obvious issue with cloning speed, it's about 10-14 days no matter what, slower than it used to be, the blue dream, and jack herer I have, used to root in about a week. I have a good success RATE, just slow times, but I can totally deal with that.
I've had the blue dream for about 7-8 yrs or so( I think), and the jack for about 12


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## GrowerGoneWild (Jul 18, 2014)

green_machine_two9er said:


> Ive always thought(not sure why) Cloning a 2nd generation Plant will cause hermies/ stress, basically bad news?Is there any truth to this.
> Mother>Clone>Clone>?this generation?
> I want to Keep my lemon skunk as its one of My favorite strains but have no more seeds.


I havent seen any problems in a cut that I've made a clone of a clone to say 6th generation of cloning. Ive never done it past say 10 times. I'm sure that it would take a long time to see problems with a multi generation cut. But thats just guessing. The only reason I do the clone of a clone is because I run out of mom room to get decent cuts from.


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## skunkd0c (Jul 18, 2014)

Sativied said:


> No.


^^


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## This Hidden Creature (Jul 19, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> although, the only negative thing i'd say is an issue, is this, I HAVE seen an obvious issue with cloning speed, it's about 10-14 days no matter what, slower than it used to be, the blue dream, and jack herer I have, used to root in about a week. I have a good success RATE, just slow times, but I can totally deal with that.
> I've had the blue dream for about 7-8 yrs or so( I think), and the jack for about 12


cut your clones at the beginning of the month.
Just because it is the NEW moon and it is the best moment to clone or make some seedlings.
moon revolution is 28days but new moon sets always from the beginning of any month, full moon around 15th of the month, so you have a good 10 days window to make some cloning

I personaly often do clones from the last week of a month till the end of the first week of the next month.
2 weeks for cloning and being sure they will root within the week.
10 to 14 days later, its good to go

best

EDIT: by the way, with a bit of logic never cut clones betwen 15th and the end of the month.
They will take ages to root.
I'm not saying it will not but really very slowly.


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## EverythingsHazy (Jul 19, 2014)

100% fine.


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## green_machine_two9er (Jul 19, 2014)

Thanks for everyone's input. Just thought id share the two New mothers i will be cloning tomorrow! It will be two on left in the pic. Lemon Skunk this will be Third generation Once i take clones. O yeah back left is Purple Paralysis , Front left is strawberry HAze.


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## scarecrow77 (Jul 20, 2014)

green_machine_two9er said:


> Ive always thought(not sure why) Cloning a 2nd generation Plant will cause hermies/ stress, basically bad news?Is there any truth to this.
> Mother>Clone>Clone>?this generation?
> I want to Keep my lemon skunk as its one of My favorite strains but have no more seeds.


The only way I know to fuck up cloning clones and so on ....is if you take clones from a plant that was revegged ....the clones will have a loss in potency and if you clone that clone it will have a further loss in potency and so on.....but I hear growers all the time cloning clones for years with no problems....


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## scarecrow77 (Jul 20, 2014)

Forgot to mention take your clones in veg if you plan on cloning that clone and so on .....I think taking them in flower will defo fuck with them after a few grows....it's ok taking them in flower if you do not plan on cloning them just flowering them out.....if you want to hold genetics from a clone always take them when in vegg...


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## burgertime2010 (Jul 20, 2014)

scarecrow77 said:


> The only way I know to fuck up cloning clones and so on ....is if you take clones from a plant that was revegged ....the clones will have a loss in potency and if you clone that clone it will have a further loss in potency and so on.....but I hear growers all the time cloning clones for years with no problems....


I just took clones from plants that were a week into flowering. It definitely took longer than usual to root and take off into veg....is this a problem? The shape of them are much thicker and bushy than the plants I got them from. If there is no potency loss it seems like a way to improve the pheno. It was a long process, but the strain was sick...it has potency to spare. Have you heard of anyone doing this to get fat mothers from stringy strains?


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## jason1976 (Jul 20, 2014)

clone:an exact replica of a donating sample. meaning clones are supposed to be just like their "parent" ive cloned clones of clones that were cloned.. lol and have been for years.


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## scarecrow77 (Jul 20, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> I just took clones from plants that were a week into flowering. It definitely took longer than usual to root and take off into veg....is this a problem? The shape of them are much thicker and bushy than the plants I got them from. If there is no potency loss it seems like a way to improve the pheno. It was a long process, but the strain was sick...it has potency to spare. Have you heard of anyone doing this to get fat mothers from stringy strains?


ya growers take clones in flower to get nice big plants .....what I was saying is if the plant you took the clones from was revegged after being flowered the clones will have a loss in potency and the clones from that clone and so on ...your grand the way your doing it..on less there revegged plants u took them from....hope this helps


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## scarecrow77 (Jul 20, 2014)

jason1976 said:


> clone:an exact replica of a donating sample. meaning clones are supposed to be just like their "parent" ive cloned clones of clones that were cloned.. lol and have been for years.


Not from revegged plants you didn't or you be smoking shit for weed by now...


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## bird mcbride (Jul 20, 2014)

I start all my seedlings in 12/12 1kw hps. I take snips from each one before the males start to show. These snips , after they are sorted out will become mothers. One mom per strain.


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## bird mcbride (Jul 20, 2014)

Regardless of what anyone says keep the mom(s) on 24/0d daylight tubes,80-360 watts.


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## burgertime2010 (Jul 20, 2014)

scarecrow77 said:


> ya growers take clones in flower to get nice big plants .....what I was saying is if the plant you took the clones from was revegged after being flowered the clones will have a loss in potency and the clones from that clone and so on ...your grand the way your doing it..on less there revegged plants u took them from....hope this helps


 So, this is good news....I can definitely see this being useful. Clones in flower. Nice.


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## GroErr (Jul 20, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> So, this is good news....I can definitely see this being useful. Clones in flower. Nice.


I like these clones from flower but I wouldn't clone those clones. So far I've only used them in a separate tent 12/12 from rooting. They take a little longer to root and initially the foliage is mutant-like (e.g. on my last one's the leaves had no serrated edges) but they produce fine. It's a good backup too, if you took clones thinking the plant was female (or before it showed sex) and it turned out to be a male, you just lost a bunch of clones. To make it up take some clones from your flowering fem(s) to make up for the loss.


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## burgertime2010 (Jul 20, 2014)

GroErr said:


> I like these clones from flower but I wouldn't clone those clones. So far I've only used them in a separate tent 12/12 from rooting. They take a little longer to root and initially the foliage is mutant-like (e.g. on my last one's the leaves had no serrated edges) but they produce fine. It's a good backup too, if you took clones thinking the plant was female (or before it showed sex) and it turned out to be a male, you just lost a bunch of clones. To make it up take some clones from your flowering fem(s) to make up for the loss.


I am seeing the non serration and everything else you describe. If they become fat healthy veggies with a shorter inter-nodal spacing than what is keeping me from mothering it out? I understand they go through a rough beginning but eventually there is a plant structure that I want replicated. Why not?


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## colonuggs (Jul 20, 2014)

ok here's my 123th clone of a clone of a clone......same strain, never mothered.

clones takin @ flower onset... 5 times a year.... for over 20 yrs

Have over 10 ELITE strains that I have kept for the last 8-10 years cloning. Clone of a clone of a clone of a.......




reveging your flowered plants... is a great way to save your cut of the strain... if your clones don't make it


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## GroErr (Jul 20, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> I am seeing the non serration and everything else you describe. If they become fat healthy veggies with a shorter inter-nodal spacing than what is keeping me from mothering it out? I understand they go through a rough beginning but eventually there is a plant structure that I want replicated. Why not?


They could be fine, I have no doubt you can successfully clone them. But I haven't cloned any of those to tell first-hand whether there's any effects on potency or yield, mainly because I haven't been in a situation where I had to. I have a couple coming up that are just rooting and will probably take some clones off those when they grow up and see how the clones behave. What I do know is that there are a lot of people that take these clones off flowering plants, so someone has likely cloned those type of clones and may have some first hand experience to share.


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## GroErr (Jul 20, 2014)

colonuggs said:


> ok here's my 123th clone of a clone of a clone......same strain, never mothered.
> 
> clones takes @ flower onset 5 times a year for over 20 yrs


When you say at onset, how far after 12/12 flip? The one's I've taken have typically been week 2-3 after the flip. I'm liking the little mutant's. Haven't grown any out into full size plants (pretty well straight to 12/12 after rooting) but I have one Jack The Ripper right now outdoor that was looking like it was going to die off. It just really started growing again about a week ago and is now shooting out normal nodes/leaves. It's looking like it's going to have crazy amounts of nodes and growing fast now. This thing was 1/3 of its current size a week ago... You can still see some of the darker/mutant leaves towards the centre and bottom.


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## colonuggs (Jul 20, 2014)

Normally, I take them within the first 3 days of flipin...if not you'll send them into a shock when rooted in clone form..... they start throwin off 1 leafers for a few.... then back into veg 

That nice green plant you growin there will produce just like the plant before....take some clones


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## GroErr (Jul 20, 2014)

colonuggs said:


> Normally, I take them within the first 3 days of flipin...if not you'll send them into a shock when rooted in clone form..... they start throwin off 1 leafers for a few.... then back into veg
> 
> That nice green plant you growin there will produce just like the plant before....take some clones


Thanks, it's looking nice now, will be small as it will likely start pre-flowering in a week or two where I am. But whatever, if it produces even an ounce it's getting free light and water, no complaints. Wouldn't clone this one as my outdoor season is short and I never bring anything from outside into my indoor grow room. No problem though, I have 3 more directly behind it in 7gal pots that are now taking a 3'W x 6'L x 3'H' footprint after 8 weeks outside, those will produce some nice bud


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## Mr.GreenJeans (Jul 23, 2014)

There should be no problem with repetitive cloning. I've been growing 1 strain from a single seed for over 4 years now (33+ cycles!) with no problems at all and no reduction in yield or potency. I just cut my clones about 1 week before I switch to the flowering phase on a grow/cycle (I run dual grow rooms so it's in a modified perpetual cycle and I have a harvest every 5 or 6 weeks).

Clone away!!! If you start getting hermies or reduced yields/potency it's NOT because of cloning repetitively!


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## qwizoking (Jul 23, 2014)

If you don't think genetics change you don't know anything about genetics...


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## mrCRC420 (Jul 23, 2014)

I agree that there are some changes/developments in each generation, perhaps through adapting better to your room, or because of different levels of various nutrients carried into each clone. BUT. I don't think the developments make enough impact to reduce the yield or potency to a point where it would become an issue. I've got a clone of a clone and I would def clone again if my mother plant died. Sorry that this was a weird answer.


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## Hablamos (Jul 26, 2014)

Simon from Serious seeds tell me couple years ago '' if you give the same treatment as you do for the seeds plant nothing will change ''

Personally i never keep seeds plant, i damn hate them ! My actual grow is fully loaded with clone plant taking from clone, for the fourth or fifth generation.

Same weed, same yield.


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## mehrific (Jul 26, 2014)

Article copied and pasted from http://steephilllab.com/mother-plants-grow-old/

Mother Plants Grow Old

It’s an old story: the grower can’t understand why the last three batches of clones from his mother plant ‘Old Reliable’ keep getting lower and lower potency values “….no matter how I change up the lighting, micro-nutrients, etc… originally my plants tested 15% CBD-A and 6% THC-A, now they down to 9% CBD-A and 4% THC-A.”

Then we ask “And the plants themselves, how do they appear compared to earlier clones off the same mother plant?” The answer “*Not as robust* as they used to be, and more mildew problems.”

It’s a common story, and is primarily all about old proteins and old DNA. All living organisms have a built-in clock, their ‘*Circadian Clock*’, which pretty much starts at Zero the day they/it are born/hatch/sprout. As you grow older, so do the proteins and DNA in your body, and as they get older, they breakdown, first slowly, yet over time the cumulation of damage starts to have appreciable effect on the organisms survivability.

*The older a organism is when you clone from it, the more damage that is transferred into the new clones, therefore clones from the mother plants first year contain many less damaged proteins than clones taken during the mothers 3rd year. Bottom line: the longer you keep a mother plant, the poorer quality the clones will statistically be, and there is no way around it if you keep using the same mother plant.*

This is why it is wise to seed out a small portion of one of your early clones, then safely store those seeds for long term storage, so you have a ready supply of new mother plants. Of course, bio-diversity being what it is, different seeds will have sprout to form different phenotypes, so you will need plenty of seed to get the new phenotypical mother you are interested in. IF the phenotype just happens to be the common phenotype, then this is easy since 50% of the seeds will be that common phenotype. If on the other hand, what you want is a rare phenotype, then your probability of getting what you want is much less (1/4, 1/8, 1/16/1/32, etc), so you will need a larger quantity of seed to find your desired plant.

edit: highlight main point


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## qwizoking (Jul 26, 2014)

Yep..
I'm like these people in this thread do grow right? Lol


Also simon is an idiot


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## Hablamos (Jul 27, 2014)

The steephilllab article is making me doubt about what I've always done.

Personally if i need 50 clones , i start 10 or 12 clones and i take 5 or 6 on each pseudo-mother plant to get my number and i usually kill them after that. i never keep mother plant in stock, i always take my clones at last minute before put them in flower to keep the genetics for the next OP, i keep the genetics for less then 1 year to try another, and/or when i lost it . ! 

probally the lower level of cbd/thc is a reaction if the clone have been taken from really big and old mother plant. I will focus on that detail in the future, but i think if you do it 3 or 4 times it's okay. For several year maybe it's not the same!

It's impossible for me to test the thc/cbd level even if i want to know it's impossible to tell just by smoke test. 

maybe some are more favorable genetic to avoid this shit to happen.

Nice thread idea!


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## Commander Strax (Jul 27, 2014)

cats in every thread, cats in every thread, cats in every thread


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## Flagg420 (Aug 2, 2014)

I cloned multi generational clones over and over and over... But yea, the genetics got a little fuzzy after a while. I WAY lost count, but my Chai Tea on the drying rack right now, is the LAST of them... I started growing on that things great great great great....grand...sister? That was around 4yrs ago. Never mothered, always cloned the clones. Awesome buds, great high, smelledtasted like crunchberries... loved it.

But by the end, its resistances to mites were just plani gone. Was a 2x a week sprayer by the end. 3 diff. mite killers on a rotation, lol. 
Also it got real leggy, scraggly... stretchy... bud production on original was 3.5-4oz latest were down to like 0.75-1.5oz...
Broke my heart, but like a rabid dog, it was a threat to the others, and not worth the risk. Executed.

(local breeder made it back when i picked it up, so not replaceable...)


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## Lemon king (Sep 28, 2014)

colonuggs said:


> ok here's my 123th clone of a clone of a clone......same strain, never mothered.
> 
> clones takin @ flower onset... 5 times a year.... for over 20 yrs
> 
> ...


Great plant.....lemon larry??


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## Lemon king (Sep 28, 2014)

So does that mean instead of taking clones from one mum with dead dna and.protiens.....is i then better to clone a clone to avoid passing on dead cells??


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## Doer (Sep 28, 2014)

colonuggs said:


> ok here's my 123th clone of a clone of a clone......same strain, never mothered.
> 
> clones takin @ flower onset... 5 times a year.... for over 20 yrs
> 
> ...



Very pretty. Next time I grow, I am going to bigger containers, you have colas on the bottom.


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## Doer (Sep 28, 2014)

Lemon king said:


> So does that mean instead of taking clones from one mum with dead dna and.protiens.....is i then better to clone a clone to avoid passing on dead cells??


You know in Botany, no one worries about this clone not good business.
Many many plants are only clones of clones of clones.....like Orchids.

Ganja clones have only one short coming. No tap root. Other than that, it is the same plant. We call it a clone, but it really is just a rooted cutting.

Clones, as we know is where the mammal eggs are split. Mammals can't take an appendage off it and grow a new mammal from that. 

So we clone animals but we propagate plants.


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## colonuggs (Sep 28, 2014)

the key is to ALWAYS take your clones from the healthiest plants

If you take a clone from a unhealthy plant the clone may die or pass on some funk


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## Dankfactory (Sep 28, 2014)

mehrific said:


> Article copied and pasted from http://steephilllab.com/mother-plants-grow-old/
> 
> Mother Plants Grow Old
> 
> ...


So, steephillabs is the end all, be all, to genetic cannabis research? All I see in the provided link is pure speculation with exactly zero scientific studies linked to support their findings. In fact, if you click on their actual "Research" link on the website, there is simply nothing to be found. On the contrary, and in regards to the so called genetic deterioration as it relates to circadian rhythms, the _actual_ scientific data would argue that any known data on the topic is inconclusive at best. 
"*The progress achieved in the last 15 years toward unraveling the plant circadian clock mechanism is remarkable, but much remains unfinished*. An outline of the oscillator mechanism has emerged but remains incomplete. Although we can safely conclude that the paradigm of interlocked feedback loops constituting a circadian oscillator is conserved in plants, not all the components have yet been identified, and the mechanistic details of almost every step are only incompletely understood. *It is humbling that, after so much effort and progress, almost all questions remain only incompletely answered and, effectively, all questions remain*! Moreover, the field is now expanding its view from the purely reductionist goal of identifying the oscillator itself to a consideration of the evolutionary and ecological consequences of variation in clock function, so a host of new questions are being considered. It is exhilarating to consider what a retrospective view a decade from now will reveal." (Sourcelantcell.org) 
Obviously this isn't a study on cannabis THC content and it's alleged degradation over generations, but it must be said that simply throwing around buzzwords like the circadian clock by a highly suspect "research" outfit doesn't make it Science.

Many, many clone only's ( SFV for example) are just as dank today as they were twenty years ago. Gene degradation? I call bullshit.


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## Sativied (Sep 28, 2014)

Doer said:


> You know in Botany, no one worries about this clone not good business.
> Many many plants are only clones of clones of clones.....like Orchids.
> 
> Ganja clones have only one short coming. No tap root. Other than that, it is the same plant. We call it a clone, but it really is just a rooted cutting.
> ...


Good post man. That last thing, as you probably know but pointing it out anyway, is because a plant cell can turn into anything, while with animals that is not the case (hence the usefulness of stem cells..)

And the missing tap root is barely a short coming in practice. The roots respond the same way like the branches do when topping.
 Left is about half a day or so older but is missing the tap root. I also end up with the same amount of roots in my hydro setup whether I use clones or seeds.


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## torontoke (Sep 28, 2014)

I think clones from a first gen mother is by far the best plan.keep a mother in a small area surrounded by even t5s 

If you take clones for clones from clones etc it does weken the genetics.

Most people are niave and instead they claim they are gettin a tolerance to a strain but i think its usually multiple clone genes that are just weaker each harvest.

Just my experience anyway im sure it has worked for others but i just prefer to keep a mom


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## Sativied (Sep 28, 2014)

torontoke said:


> If you take clones for clones from clones etc it does weken the genetics.


In practice it looks like it does but that's not from taking clones from clones or the number of times you do it. Taking clones from unhealthy, weak, sick, infected etc plants leads to weak clones and the longer you clone the clone the larger the chances you end up with something degraded. It does not per se "weaken the genetics". Using tissue culture you can grow a clone of only the genetics and filter out the diseases and whatever it picked up along the way, hence why tc is amongst others used to rejuvenate clones. Short of spontaneous mutations and exceptions, cloning does not equal genetic modification, on the contrary.

Let me put it differently:

It comes down to nurture vs nature. When you propagate plants sexually the resulting seeds are a result of half of each parent's genes. NOT of its nurture, but what the parents are by nature (their DNA). You can for example grow the parents in very cold environments, it won't mean their offspring will be able to handle cold environments better, and it won't mean the offspring will have carried over purple stems and droopiness from their cold parents.

When you propagate asexually, like cloning, you CAN transfer BOTH nature and nurture. I.e. if the parent of seeds get infected with whatever pest or disease, it doesn't mean the plants from their seeds will have it too. If you however would clone one of the infected parents...

So, in short:


colonuggs said:


> the key is to ALWAYS take your clones from the healthiest plants


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## Doer (Sep 28, 2014)

Well, I'd like to see any evidence that "it does weaken the genetics."

There are countless ganja myths, however.


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## Dankfactory (Sep 28, 2014)

torontoke said:


> I think clones from a first gen mother is by far the best plan.keep a mother in a small area surrounded by even t5s
> 
> *If you take clones for clones from clones etc it does weken the genetics.*
> 
> ...


Any proof( scientific data) to support this claim? Or is just simply the usual baseless conjecture of which is responsible for many a grower subscribing to such techniques as urinating on their plants, kicking their pots, and playing Mozart to their garden during the bloom cycle?


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## colonuggs (Sep 28, 2014)

torontoke said:


> If you take clones for clones from clones etc it does weken the genetics.
> 
> Most people are niave and instead they claim they are gettin a tolerance to a strain but i think its usually multiple clone genes that are just weaker each harvest.


I have never kept a mother plant and have the same cut 25 years later

clone right at onset...there is no need for a mom


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## torontoke (Sep 28, 2014)

I read it in an article in high times yrs ago.
I tried to just keep taking clones off of each new batch because i didnt want to keep a mother either but i caved because someone with alot of experience told me so.

If you guys are right then im happy to know it so thank you.

I never claimed to be a master i dont think im arjan or anything lmfao


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## a mongo frog (Sep 28, 2014)

colonuggs said:


> I have never kept a mother plant and have the same cut 25 years later
> 
> clone right at onset...there is no need for a mom


there are reasons for moms. your situation doesn't need them, but some peoples do.


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## Dankfactory (Sep 28, 2014)

a mongo frog said:


> there are reasons for moms. your situation doesn't need them, but some peoples do.


Considering you could fit many cuttings underneath the same light in which you would utilize to light your Mother, I can't see a single reason to keep one. Not to mention its simply an inferior way to produce clones since much of the growth will be aged with woody stems( not conducive to fast rooting clones.) 
Care to elaborate on a single reason why a Mother is required instead of fresh rounds of endless succulent cuttings?


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## a mongo frog (Sep 28, 2014)

Dankfactory said:


> Considering you could fit many cuttings underneath the same light in which you would utilize to light your Mother, I can't see a single reason to keep one. Not to mention its simply an inferior way to produce clones since much of the growth will be aged with woody stems( not conducive to fast rooting clones.)
> Care to elaborate on a single reason why a Mother is required instead of fresh rounds of endless succulent cuttings?


i have no idea what this means. i did get the part where your having trouble rooting cuts. but thats about it.


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## colonuggs (Sep 29, 2014)

now guys come on ....you never heard of the 7 year old bonzi marijuana moms??

You can pull 25-30 cuts a month.... this is a 7 year old bonzi mom



Plant # 4 is 5 years old



Before trimming, Plant was let go... no fert added nasty looking to show how resilient marijuana really is


trimmed down to this



once a year you have to trim the root ball

 

and add fresh growing medium


Same plant...30 days later  with new growth and cuttings just waiting to be taken


When you grow bonzi moms.... you have to take your cuttings or trim the plant once a month.... don't matter if you need the cutting or not..... you have to keep the bonzi trimmed up

you can keep a lot of strains in a small area ......look 24 different strains bonzi moms in a 2 ft x 4 ft area


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## GrowerGoneWild (Sep 29, 2014)

^^^ Nice post, I've been trimming the rootball for my moms in DWC. Nice to see my instinct was right.. 

Very efficient setup. Its kinda wierd how you can keep annual plants stuck in veg with no problems for years.


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## Doer (Sep 29, 2014)

torontoke said:


> I read it in an article in high times yrs ago.
> I tried to just keep taking clones off of each new batch because i didnt want to keep a mother either but i caved because someone with alot of experience told me so.
> 
> If you guys are right then im happy to know it so thank you.
> ...



I know, I know. High Times is and has always been a front for the DEA, imo. I am glad you took this in the spirit intended. Me? I have abandoned these hippy superstitions designed to keep the blackmarket prices high.

I read up on Botany. It is just a weed and seems more hardy and easy to grow than tomatoes, for example.

The rooting auxin being more concentrated lower down, means I grab some of those low straggley sucker branches that will never amount to anything, after one month of Veg and pop those in a cloner. Works fine. Rooted clones are ready to go for the next month's start.

There is another myth. The Mom doesn't have to be 3 month old. It is a nice to have, is all, for keeping variety. Every month I take low clones from 1 month old clones and every month I replant the ones from last month. A flow of green.


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## Doer (Sep 29, 2014)

Great Post, @colonuggs

I like the small container work.


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## a mongo frog (Sep 29, 2014)

colonuggs said:


> now guys come on ....you never heard of the 7 year old bonzi marijuana moms??
> 
> You can pull 25-30 cuts a month.... this is a 7 year old bonzi mom
> 
> ...


And you said you didn't keep mother plants. And then DankFactory came in here looking to troll. Awesome set up man. very fucking cool. And thanks for the quick lesson on that root pruning. very cool.


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## torontoke (Sep 29, 2014)

Well


colonuggs said:


> now guys come on ....you never heard of the 7 year old bonzi marijuana moms??
> 
> You can pull 25-30 cuts a month.... this is a 7 year old bonzi mom
> 
> ...


 im glad im not the only one who still does this then.

Great set up man
Your almost a baskin robbins with that selection.


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## Doer (Sep 30, 2014)

a mongo frog said:


> And you said you didn't keep mother plants. And then DankFactory came in here looking to troll. Awesome set up man. very fucking cool. And thanks for the quick lesson on that root pruning. very cool.


He did say those were his.


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## Aeroknow (Sep 30, 2014)

Dankfactory said:


> Considering you could fit many cuttings underneath the same light in which you would utilize to light your Mother, I can't see a single reason to keep one. Not to mention its simply an inferior way to produce clones since much of the growth will be aged with woody stems( not conducive to fast rooting clones.)
> Care to elaborate on a single reason why a Mother is required instead of fresh rounds of endless succulent cuttings?


I keep moms. I also snap cuts off of plants before i throw plants into flower. I mean, there is no set rule here! It's all about: whatever's clever

One good reason to have mommas: You grow SOG, and do not veg your plants
much before flower. That is just one reason


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## Dankfactory (Sep 30, 2014)

Aeroknow said:


> I keep moms. I also snap cuts off of plants before i throw plants into flower. I mean, there is no set rule here! It's all about: whatever's clever
> 
> One good reason to have mommas: You grow SOG, and do not veg your plants
> much before flower. That is just one reason


Your second point sort of conflicts with the ideology of keeping a Mother. By Mother, I mean a dedicated mother. One that someone( the naive grower) keeps because he is under the illusion that he's getting "pure" first gen genetics. Rotating vegged out plants into SOG, is just that: you're simply throwing a larger plant into SOG. The first part of your reply falls in line with the most efficient and superior method however: i.e: Take what you need from the plants you just threw into bloom. The cuttings will be thick soft fresh growth, and you're not stuck with a woody & aged dedicated Mother taking up valuable real estate in the garden.


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## Aeroknow (Sep 30, 2014)

Dankfactory said:


> Your second point sort of conflicts with the ideology of keeping a Mother. By Mother, I mean a dedicated mother. One that someone( the naive grower) keeps because he is under the illusion that he's getting "pure" first gen genetics. Rotating vegged out plants into SOG, is just that: you're simply throwing a larger plant into SOG. The first part of your reply falls in line with the most efficient and superior method however: i.e: Take what you need from the plants you just threw into bloom. The cuttings will be thick soft fresh growth, and you're not stuck with a woody & aged dedicated Mother taking up valuable real estate in the garden.


So look: if i'm growing SOG style, and my plants are not going to be vegged large enough to snap cuts from, i keep mommas!
If i'm growing trees, i can usually snap cuts from plants before they are flowered. But you'll still find mommas around because I have a lot of flavors, that aren't always in the rotation And, I have allot of different cycles going at once.
And then: i blow shit up outdoor also. I have allot of flavors i
Grow outside, that I don't rock indoor. Gotta keep the momma material around.
Why are you so anti-momma? Because you don't have a big veg room like some? Because you don't need to?
Just because you don't need mommas(and thats cool dude), doesn't
mean others don't also. 
I grow many different ways, for MANY years, and like I had said: whatever's clever!


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## Paperroller24 (Sep 30, 2014)

that's pretty amazing you can manage to keep a plant growing in such a small container for so long.


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 30, 2014)

colonuggs said:


> now guys come on ....you never heard of the 7 year old bonzi marijuana moms??
> 
> You can pull 25-30 cuts a month.... this is a 7 year old bonzi mom
> 
> ...



That's a really kick ass set up!

I used to keep mamas, but I don't anymore. I'm in a medical state, and I grow 6 different strains in a perpetual garden. 6 mamas would mean 6 less plants I could flower. Plus, as someone mentioned above, I find that I get cuts to root faster, and ultimately be a more vigorous plant than a clone taken from a year+ old mother plant.


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## Dankfactory (Oct 2, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> That's a really kick ass set up!
> 
> I used to keep mamas, but I don't anymore. I'm in a medical state, and I grow 6 different strains in a perpetual garden. 6 mamas would mean 6 less plants I could flower. Plus, as someone mentioned above, I find that I get cuts to root faster, and ultimately be a more vigorous plant than a clone taken from a year+ old mother plant.


Exactly. It's a pointless endeavor. Throw them in bloom, rip cuts before they start throwing pistils. Done. Nothing but an endless cycle of soft fresh cuts.


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## a mongo frog (Oct 2, 2014)

Dankfactory said:


> Exactly. It's a pointless endeavor. Throw them in bloom, rip cuts before they start throwing pistils. Done. Nothing but an endless cycle of soft fresh cuts.


Bro wake up. Not every one grows the same way. Stop trolling. Go back and work on the dank factory. Quit acting like you only know the way. Its depressing.


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## sidewing (Oct 2, 2014)

i do what you mentioned with all my strains. no loss in anything whatsoever. if anything they get stronger as the plant gets accustomed to your conditions and grow style. if the plant loses something doing the mentioned method it is caused by something else. not from taking clone after clone after clone. but i always take my clone in veg state i dont know if triggering flower and reverting every single time can cause stress and mutations. i dont imagine so. but i think its still better to take clones primarily from veg state. not to say i havent cloned in flower to reveg if needed. just dont make a regular practice of it.


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## sidewing (Oct 2, 2014)

my longest one ive had going is my first strain i obtained. KENS GDP. ive taken a clone from a clone which was a clone when i purchased it. it has had mites, its had PM. i have treated it and been mite/PM free for over 3 years now. i have taken clone from a clone i'd guess about 3 dozen times of this strain. the last clones i cut of it and rooted were in this last week. roots in 10 days. plant looks as healthy as ever, and when i flower it i'd say its better than when i first got it. because i've got her dialed into my conditions, my grow style and she is not in any state of stress that she has been in in the past. sometimes plant health can drop and it has nothing to do with what generation the clone is on. get the plant back to top health and it will go back to how it was before (if youve noticed a degrade in quality).

one thing i do think is true is that a plant takes a couple of runs to show its true colors if grown from seed. but once that plant is past say 6 months to a year in age from the original seed pop, it is what it is.


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## sidewing (Oct 2, 2014)

also i have read (dont know if its true) that when you take a clone from a flowering plant, reveg it, then trigger it to flower later that the plant not only triggers into flower faster, but grows a lot more bud sites and stays shorter/bushier. in theory meaning that a plant that has been revegged at least once in its life will make for a better plant once put back in flower.

i have a blue dream and a bay 11 that are being revegged right now and are going to be my mother plant. the plant does go thru a stress/transitional state when revegging, but once its back in veg mode it shouldnt degrade anything. seems people like to overthink cannabis. its a weed, its evolved to survive and carry on. i threw a stone on top of a plant one time (a big stepping stone 50 pounds heavy) and went back 2 weeks later to find the broken plant had mended itself, and was growing like a vine out of every side of the stone. i wasnt even watering it. im pretty sure my GDP at one point was revegged. no ill effects down the road. stop believing all the stories online, clone your plant how u want to do it and it will be fine.


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## eastcoastmo (Oct 3, 2014)

How do people think breeders keep producing the same seeds year in and year out?...they use cuttings to keep the mum and dad alive and take cuttings to produce seeds. This is how strains are kept alive for 25-30 years. It's also how strains die out suddenly or strains look different over time!


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## Holylander (Oct 17, 2014)

colonuggs said:


> now guys come on ....you never heard of the 7 year old bonzi marijuana moms??
> 
> You can pull 25-30 cuts a month.... this is a 7 year old bonzi mom trimmed down to this
> 
> ...


Haha, you are truly awesome dude! x100 likes.


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## JD_85 (Dec 14, 2014)

my GDP OG Kusk is still healthy and ive never kept a mother. been alive for 2.5 years now


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## mattypp (Jan 23, 2015)

I'm on my 4th generation of cloning clones on my Dinafem White Widow and I have absolutely no issues with hermies. The last set of clones I ran (generation 3) actually finished faster than any others before it at 8 1/2 weeks. All others before were 10-12 weeks to finish. I'm not sure if me getting a better hold on the conditions in the grow room caused that or what, but I've seen no ill effects from this method.


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 23, 2015)

have any of u heard that u can take a cutting off a plant and get it to grow on another plant? a friend of mine swears he took a cut off a nl and a bubblgum and put the branch from the bubblgum onto the nl plant w a stint and tape and it became a branch on that plant.. is this even possible? and if so, would that branch become a new strain?


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## JD_85 (Jan 23, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> have any of u heard that u can take a cutting off a plant and get it to grow on another plant? a friend of mine swears he took a cut off a nl and a bubblgum and put the branch from the bubblgum onto the nl plant w a stint and tape and it became a branch on that plant.. is this even possible? and if so, would that branch become a new strain?


*
theres a thred on here called, New (old) idea for new (old) grafting technique. talks a lot about this*


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## Jimmyjonestoo (Jan 23, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> have any of u heard that u can take a cutting off a plant and get it to grow on another plant? a friend of mine swears he took a cut off a nl and a bubblgum and put the branch from the bubblgum onto the nl plant w a stint and tape and it became a branch on that plant.. is this even possible? and if so, would that branch become a new strain?


Its called grafting and yes its very possible. Used a lot in fruit orchards. If you put a bubblegum branch on a nl plant its still bubblegum just on a nl root stock. Grafting can be helpful for those who want multiple strains but want to stay within the legal plant count.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Jan 23, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> have any of u heard that u can take a cutting off a plant and get it to grow on another plant? a friend of mine swears he took a cut off a nl and a bubblgum and put the branch from the bubblgum onto the nl plant w a stint and tape and it became a branch on that plant.. is this even possible? and if so, would that branch become a new strain?


1) Yes it is possible.
2) No, it would not be a new strain, you would just have a NL plant with a BG branch.
3) Cannabis is an annual - why bother?


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## Daub Marley (Jan 25, 2015)

At this point I am stupid when it comes to genetics. That much I'll admit, but probably most ppl in this thread know a lot less than me. Wake up and realize that you don't know shit and maybe you'll start to learn something.


qwizoking said:


> If you don't think genetics change you don't know anything about genetics...


Exactly! Besides the obvious mutations what about epigenetics?


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## charface (Jan 25, 2015)

Hopefully mine changes for the better.


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## thump easy (Jan 25, 2015)

Sativied said:


> Nah, would love too grow "plantlets" but I don't have a suitable environment for it either. It also seems like an entire hobby and study by itself just to get the right ingredients. I hope some day there will be pre-made cannabis specific easy to use kits.
> 
> http://www.pakbs.org/pjbot/PDFs/41(2)/PJB41(2)603.pdf


Do you want me to make one.. I can


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 26, 2015)

mattypp said:


> I'm on my 4th generation of cloning clones on my Dinafem White Widow and I have absolutely no issues with hermies. The last set of clones I ran (generation 3) actually finished faster than any others before it at 8 1/2 weeks. All others before were 10-12 weeks to finish. I'm not sure if me getting a better hold on the conditions in the grow room caused that or what, but I've seen no ill effects from this method.


i had the same thing happen to me, my original misty mother took 8 weeks to finish.after my 3rd gen of clones of clones they finished in 50 days,,after 3 yrs of cloning clones always finished in 50 days and i believe they got more potent,more vigour,bigger buds...


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## norcalmopar (Jan 29, 2015)

you can do it. 4-6 maybe 10-20 cuts later it will noticably lose potency


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 29, 2015)

as long as u always keep the clones stress free and always pic the fastest most vigourus cole to be ur next mom, i believe you wont lose potency,,maybe after years and only if it gets stressed..i kept coning clones for 5 years w/ no loss of yield r potency, always kept the first one to root to be my next mom..


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 29, 2015)

if u think about it, keeping 1 original mom to clone off for years, there is a bigger chance of her getting stress somhow.. but w/ a clone of her thats only around for a month to cloe again then keep a clone of that for a mom,bthey dont last as long therefore have less chance of getting stressed conditions..just my thoughts..


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## norcalmopar (Jan 29, 2015)

I have worked some of the same cuts 5 years and more, I like to keep my mothers separate so I can take cuts whenever I want, but I've also seen hybrids that look strong clone one maybe two, and just go downhill from there because of cloning clones, its in the genes. its might be reasonable to do every decade or so keep a mother fresh if you know your keeping it, but I personally would not every pull. I have friends that do, but they also change cuts more frequently than I do


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## norcalmopar (Jan 29, 2015)

BDOGKush said:


> Right, that was my thought on the matter and recently had a friend argue with me for over an hour on the subject because he doesn't want to see this cut go. This cut used to pull 2+ oz a plant just lolipopping and letting it do its thing, hardly pulls an ounce a plant under exact same feeding regiment and grow conditions anymore. Potency is still there, taste and smell are there, just grows weak branches and smaller, slightly fluffier buds now.


This is the kind of thing I have observed, more often than not the grower is unknowingly overcompensating and basically developing a low stress training regiment to maintain quality at cost of yield. Usually from somewhere over 1lb per 750 to just under, not much but enough.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Jan 30, 2015)

I like to pull clones off & veg them up to then flower running the mothers to harvest too.
Mid flower or so I'll pull clones from the prettiest ones and run mother for the next chop.
It's worked for over 15 years with not a glitch.

Edit: Not to say I run 15 y/o plants - I don't. 3-5 years old max is more like it.
Cooler phenos come along & due to plant count/available lighting I can't keep too many.
I've not noticed any decline in potency or vigor.


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## Bootheel Grower (Feb 4, 2015)

A good friend of mine told me this yrs ago. And I've found it to be some of the best advice I've ever received when it comes to mothers and clones.. When your growing indoors year after year and using the same mothers for clones after a couple generation you start to notice a degredation of the plant..(which I had always been told was genetic) This degradation is spectrum degradation from never receiving natural light.. So to fix this once a year I take my mothers outside for 2 or 3 weeks to let them air out and breathe and bask in mother natures light.. And you will not believe the difference you will see.. That clone battered mother turns back into a beautiful lush plant.. All of her damaged tissue has heeled. And your ready to go for another year.. This same principle works with clones. If you have a clone of a clone and you are feeling like the plant is starting to degradate. Just take the clone put it outside let it revitalize and you are back on track!!!! I usually put mine outside the second week of June that way there is no chance of it being triggered to bud.


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## greendave (Feb 4, 2015)

I'm with you mattypp I had a pack of c99 from Joey seeds that I ran for 9 generations and I swear each one was better than the last in every category taste, aroma, yields etc.Now this was several years ago,but none the less.


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## Cannasutraorganics (Feb 6, 2015)

BDOGKush said:


> Right, that was my thought on the matter and recently had a friend argue with me for over an hour on the subject because he doesn't want to see this cut go. This cut used to pull 2+ oz a plant just lolipopping and letting it do its thing, hardly pulls an ounce a plant under exact same feeding regiment and grow conditions anymore. Potency is still there, taste and smell are there, just grows weak branches and smaller, slightly fluffier buds now.


You've changed something else too.


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## Cannasutraorganics (Feb 6, 2015)

This Hidden Creature said:


> cut your clones at the beginning of the month.
> Just because it is the NEW moon and it is the best moment to clone or make some seedlings.
> moon revolution is 28days but new moon sets always from the beginning of any month, full moon around 15th of the month, so you have a good 10 days window to make some cloning
> 
> ...


This is a joke, right? 
New moon is at beginning of month??? 
The cut clones at the new moon has validity. But everything else about the moon is so stupid I can't believe your leaving it in print..........


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## BDOGKush (Feb 6, 2015)

Cannasutraorganics said:


> You've changed something else too.


I have? What?


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## This Hidden Creature (Feb 6, 2015)

Cannasutraorganics said:


> This is a joke, right?
> New moon is at beginning of month???
> The cut clones at the new moon has validity. But everything else about the moon is so stupid I can't believe your leaving it in print..........


Use a calendar for moon cycles...
I won't comment further as you like reading on the first degre...
If you take my word as a bible, man good luck. I said that as an example.
Again , use a CALENDAR for exact timing!
Or even better, use your eyes and look in the sky regularly...
Don't you have a bit of common sense, you always interprete what you read on the first grade... ?!?!

I can re say that every clone I do with the new moon is rooting way faster than when I do at any else time.

from 5 to 10 days with a new moon, can reach a month for rooting if I do it on the last moon cycle.

Believe what you want, I work by observation and experience. what I do is working for me.
I'm sold with organik for life. moon is our friend.
I don't care of what you think about my saying, judge if you like loosing your time, poor man.

I live in peace with organik growing, I only use my compost and work with nature,with moon when not in a rush [it can happen] and everything is going better than ever before [ when using nutrients in water + additives].

Just water and passion.


I was away from posting on riu but your stupid reaction "deserved" my explanation.
by the way seeing your next post quoting BDOGKush, it really shows it all, how poor.

end of the chain reaction.

/Me back to my overwhelming task for 2015, private matter.

End of transmission.

See you maybe in 2016... maybe


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## _MrBelvedere_ (Feb 6, 2015)

BDOGKush said:


> Right, that was my thought on the matter and recently had a friend argue with me for over an hour on the subject because he doesn't want to see this cut go. This cut used to pull 2+ oz a plant just lolipopping and letting it do its thing, hardly pulls an ounce a plant under exact same feeding regiment and grow conditions anymore. Potency is still there, taste and smell are there, just grows weak branches and smaller, slightly fluffier buds now.


IMO is always best to "spread the cut" as much as possible to your family network and not hoard it. If your cut/mother gets sick and mutates, then you can (hopefully) get a fresh healthy cut back from your family network.


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## Cannasutraorganics (Feb 6, 2015)

BDOGKush said:


> I have? What?


Don't know yet. But that's not genetics. Humidity. Temp. Water temp. Big list.


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## Cannasutraorganics (Feb 6, 2015)

This Hidden Creature said:


> Use a calendar for moon cycles...
> I won't comment further as you like reading on the first degre...
> If you take my word as a bible, man good luck. I said that as an example.
> Again , use a CALENDAR for exact timing!
> ...


You said to do it the first of every month. You said the full moon is the same time every month. That's what I'm questioning. Not the validity of growing and harvesting based on moon phases. I do it. Just not the first of each month....... Do you follow now???


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## Bootheel Grower (Feb 6, 2015)

This Hidden Creature said:


> Use a calendar for moon cycles...
> I won't comment further as you like reading on the first degre...
> If you take my word as a bible, man good luck. I said that as an example.
> Again , use a CALENDAR for exact timing!
> ...


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## Bootheel Grower (Feb 6, 2015)

I will agree with you a100% on that.. I work in agriculture, and lunar cycles do have affects on plants. If they didn't the saying by the light of the harvest moon wouldn't make any sense.. Lol.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Feb 6, 2015)

This Hidden Creature said:


> Use a calendar for moon cycles...
> I won't comment further as you like reading on the first degre...
> If you take my word as a bible, man good luck. I said that as an example.
> Again , use a CALENDAR for exact timing!
> ...


Indoor plants never see the moon nor the sun.
Where is the benefit there in following the moon cycle?

Sounds suspiciously like snake oil.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Feb 6, 2015)

BTW, the Harvest moon is significant only in that it was brighter due to angular alignment of it to the earth and the proximity of the moon (to earth) to allow farmers to work later in the evening, being that it was lighter longer.
Thus you could "harvest" longer.


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## _MrBelvedere_ (Feb 6, 2015)

@Sativied I am on the same page as you regarding the tissue culture. Eventually tissue culture will replace "mother plants", because the tissue culture can be kept completely sterile and free of anything that may mutate its genetics or sicken it. So far only a team in China has been able to successfully tissue culture cannabis (from cell to full grown plant). Skunk Pharma in PNW ( http://skunkpharmresearch.com/tissue-culture/ ) is getting *close *to success, and on some other forums there are threads of people getting close. At the Humboldt Cup DJ Short was saying that hopefully old valuable mother plants that have sickness can be "restored" back to their original health by going though the tissue culture process.

Once the protocol for tissue culture of cannabis is perfected, then we have no longer have to worry about mothers getting sick and passing on the sickness via propagation. Hopefully it will be sooner rather than later.

There is so much we don't know about this amazing plant it is astonishing. *We don't even know for sure if it is truly dioecious !!!*


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## Cannasutraorganics (Feb 7, 2015)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> Indoor plants never see the moon nor the sun.
> Where is the benefit there in following the moon cycle?
> 
> Sounds suspiciously like snake oil.


Really??? Have you ever been to the beach? Have you ever fished? 
Have you figured it out yet by yourself???
The gravitational pull from the moon is felt by the earth and plants. The pull changes with the relation to the earth and sun. So plants, like the ocean, can feel this and react to it. In the ocean it's tides. Plants internal clocks respond to it. 
I cut hundreds of clones every week. The ones cut before the new moon root much faster then the ones cut just before the full moon. 3 to 7 days faster. 


GreatwhiteNorth said:


> BTW, the Harvest moon is significant only in that it was brighter due to angular alignment of it to the earth and the proximity of the moon (to earth) to allow farmers to work later in the evening, being that it was lighter longer.
> Thus you could "harvest" longer.


This is also wrong. Harvesting within three days of the full moon increases yield and harvesting after the sun sets makes the fruit sweeter. When weather, clouds, block the sun they still harvest many crops based on the moon. A hundred years ago they used torches to harvest if the moon was clouded out.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Feb 7, 2015)

Cannasutraorganics said:


> This is also wrong. Harvesting within three days of the full moon increases yield and harvesting after the sun sets makes the fruit sweeter. When weather, clouds, block the sun they still harvest many crops based on the moon. A hundred years ago they used torches to harvest if the moon was clouded out.


Interesting - you wouldn't happen to have a credible citation for that?


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## greendave (Feb 7, 2015)

Hey cannabis JUST DROP IT.


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## BDOGKush (Feb 10, 2015)

Cannasutraorganics said:


> Don't know yet. But that's not genetics. Humidity. Temp. Water temp. Big list.


I log all that daily and like I said, every grow was done under the exact same growing conditions.

I mentioned in the post before the one you quoted that my cut of cheese went through a horrible spider mite infestation that stressed the shit out of it. It never flowered the same after that, two generations later it still wasn't back to nomal.


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## Gquebed (Feb 21, 2015)

BDOGKush said:


> What if the plant experiences an extreme amount of stress during a generation and its the only plant you have to clone from?
> 
> I have a cut of cheese that went through a horrible spider mite infestation, I got rid of the infestation and cloned the plant. I can no longer pull the same yield as I used to with it. It's just not the same plant anymore IMO.
> 
> Racer, Sativied, thoughts? Lol


This is called evolution....

Plant seeds spread however to regions where they dont nromally grow. They sprout...they stress...they mutate...some die...some adapt...and presto - an equatorial plant now thrives in the mountains...

Evolution.


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## Gquebed (Feb 21, 2015)

So i guess we are all just mutated monkeys...lol


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## Cannasutraorganics (Feb 21, 2015)

Gquebed said:


> This is called evolution....
> 
> Plant seeds spread however to regions where they dont nromally grow. They sprout...they stress...they mutate...some die...some adapt...and presto - an equatorial plant now thrives in the mountains...
> 
> Evolution.


It doesn't thrive. It exists. Less growth and yield. Try again Sherlock.


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## Gquebed (Feb 22, 2015)

Cannasutraorganics said:


> It doesn't thrive. It exists. Less growth and yield. Try again Sherlock.


Exactly. But it exists. And over time...generations...the strain may or may not thrive. Some strains do some dont. It is genetics. Nevertheless, it is evolution...Darwinism.

You may want to try again at being decent person. You might also want to try reading a book. Then you would know what i am saying is true.


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## Cannasutraorganics (Feb 22, 2015)

Gquebed said:


> Exactly. But it exists. And over time...generations...the strain may or may not thrive. Some strains do some dont. It is genetics. Nevertheless, it is evolution...Darwinism.
> 
> You may want to try again at being decent person. You might also want to try reading a book. Then you would know what i am saying is true.


I've read many books. Survival of the fittest is what that is. Evolution is evolving. Try again. Plants mutate. Animals transport seeds long distances. Plants adapt by survival of th fitest. That's not evolving.


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## Gquebed (Feb 23, 2015)

Cannasutraorganics said:


> I've read many books. Survival of the fittest is what that is. Evolution is evolving. Try again. Plants mutate. Animals transport seeds long distances. Plants adapt by survival of th fitest. That's not evolving.


Ah...yes it is. The fittest survive. And so they are the ones that adapt/mutate/evolve to the new environment over generations...because the weak ones die.

That this needs to be spelled out for you is proof that you are not clear on the subject. Or rather not clear on logic...


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## Ace Yonder (Feb 24, 2015)

Cannasutraorganics said:


> I've read many books. Survival of the fittest is what that is. Evolution is evolving. Try again. Plants mutate. Animals transport seeds long distances. Plants adapt by survival of th fitest. That's not evolving.


But that IS evolving. Mutation + Selection = Evolution. Typically, this process is extremely slow, but like many things in nature it can often act atypically. Random Mutation and selection by Survival of the Fittest is a slow process (Except in the case of a major catastrophe, such as a meteor strike or a super-volcano eruption, in which case certain traits or genes can be selected for over only a few generations when lack of those genes causes mass die offs), selective breeding is a quick process. For instance, in the wild it would take a very long time (perhaps never) for Wolves to evolve into Chihuahuas, but we as humans made that happen over an incredibly short stretch of time by selectively breeding them. But it IS evolution. Survival of the Fittest, Selective Breeding, Gene Splicing/modifying, these are ALL forms of evolution.


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## Ace Yonder (Feb 24, 2015)

Cannasutraorganics said:


> Are you more evolved then your parents? More then your great grandparents?..... Are you more evolved then the Romans were? We don't evovle over a thousand years. But your saying a plant does. What evloled in it! Just because it can take more cold now then it could ten generations before isn't evolving. It's expresion of genes. How all your parents kids look similar but not alike. Same goes for plants. Your repeating lies told by idiots. Your a repidiot.


Yes, we actually are. Even if it's happening slowly, it is happening. And with humans, it actually happens pretty quickly since we are so prone to mutation. And it's happening faster.
"Explosive population growth is driving human evolution to speed up around the world, according to a new study.

The pace of change accelerated about 40,000 years ago and then picked up even more with the advent of agriculture about 10,000 years ago, the study says. And while humans are evolving quickly around the world, local cultural and environmental factors are shaping evolution differently on different continents." http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071211-human-evolution.html 

And it will start happening MUCH faster if diseases like Ebola, Aids, Swine Flu, Bird Flue, etc. keep spreading like they are.


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## Gquebed (Feb 24, 2015)

And by now it is evident to everybody who has read this far into the thread that while you can type a bit, you have not evolved intellectually enough for us to imagine that you might yet be able to walk without the help of your knuckles...


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## johnnybigtree (Feb 28, 2015)

Sativied said:


> No.


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## coconutbeach (Jan 3, 2016)

_MrBelvedere_ said:


> @Sativied I am on the same page as you regarding the tissue culture. Eventually tissue culture will replace "mother plants", because the tissue culture can be kept completely sterile and free of anything that may mutate its genetics or sicken it. So far only a team in China has been able to successfully tissue culture cannabis (from cell to full grown plant). Skunk Pharma in PNW ( http://skunkpharmresearch.com/tissue-culture/ ) is getting *close *to success, and on some other forums there are threads of people getting close. At the Humboldt Cup DJ Short was saying that hopefully old valuable mother plants that have sickness can be "restored" back to their original health by going though the tissue culture process.
> 
> Once the protocol for tissue culture of cannabis is perfected, then we have no longer have to worry about mothers getting sick and passing on the sickness via propagation. Hopefully it will be sooner rather than later.
> 
> There is so much we don't know about this amazing plant it is astonishing. *We don't even know for sure if it is truly dioecious !!!*


The protocol for cannabis has been used effectively and sold commercially for over ten years now. Wang et al published the first papers because they could do the research in China. Microclone tissue culture kits are sold in hydro stores and online at planttc.com to medically and recreationally allowed states and contain both the BA and TDZ recipes for cannabis multiplication.


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## Kevin the Great (Feb 1, 2016)

Cloning a clone will eventually cause genetic drift. I was a horticultural sciences major in college and one of my botany experiments was researching the genetic drift of cuttings taken from successive clones. I used coleus as the test plant as it is easy to grow and cuttings root quickly. 
The parts of a healthy coleus that are in brighter light respond with less chlorophyll in the leaf structure and thus create a beautiful array of colors. Cuttings taken from various parts of a single mother would tend to maintain coloration closer to that of when they were cut rather than reverting back to the mother plants color. Successive cloning was easily able to exploit the fact and within a few generations I was able to produce a "clone" that was nothing like the mother. Seeds taken from these cuttings were unpredictable but mainly reverted back to the stable parentage. 
Cannabis clones are relatively stable but I'd get new seed stock every 4th or 5th gen. Some people have the incredible luck of maintaining a stable clone lineage for years, most wont.


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## a mongo frog (Feb 1, 2016)

Kevin the Great said:


> Cloning a clone will eventually cause genetic drift. I was a horticultural sciences major in college and one of my botany experiments was researching the genetic drift of cuttings taken from successive clones. I used coleus as the test plant as it is easy to grow and cuttings root quickly.
> The parts of a healthy coleus that are in brighter light respond with less chlorophyll in the leaf structure and thus create a beautiful array of colors. Cuttings taken from various parts of a single mother would tend to maintain coloration closer to that of when they were cut rather than reverting back to the mother plants color. Successive cloning was easily able to exploit the fact and within a few generations I was able to produce a "clone" that was nothing like the mother. Seeds taken from these cuttings were unpredictable but mainly reverted back to the stable parentage.
> Cannabis clones are relatively stable but I'd get new seed stock every 4th or 5th gen. Some people have the incredible luck of maintaining a stable clone lineage for years, most wont.


Fuck the gentic drift must happen after 8 years, right?


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## Kevin the Great (Feb 1, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Fuck the gentic drift must happen after 8 years, right?


I was purposely trying to exploit drift, taking cuttings from plants that were on the verge of light bleaching and some from plants that were refrigerated throughout their entire lives and given very little light.
If you're taking clones from healthy plants under steady and repeated conditions then I'm sure the drift would be minimalized.


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## a mongo frog (Feb 1, 2016)

Kevin the Great said:


> I was purposely trying to exploit drift, taking cuttings from plants that were on the verge of light bleaching and some from plants that were refrigerated throughout their entire lives and given very little light.
> If you're taking clones from healthy plants under steady and repeated conditions then I'm sure the drift would be minimalized.


Oh shit I'm sorry. I should of read more. I just jumped in. I apologize.


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