# Why Must People Who Try To Dispute Evolution Use God As An Argument?



## krustofskie (Sep 15, 2009)

Evolution and how life was formed on this earth does not bring into question wether or not there is a God. But it does make most religions look stupid. I am so tierd of religious types time and time again using poor arguments about the small chances of the random events that could have led to life and evolution ever happening, even though by saying there is such small chances they are admiting there is a chance it happend. Once you take the narrow views of your religion out of the equation God can still fit in nicely with evolution.

What say ye all


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## Mr.KushMan (Sep 16, 2009)

Scientology is dumb....


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## krustofskie (Sep 16, 2009)

Mr.KushMan said:


> Scientology is dumb....


Whats scientology got to do with the price of bacon. Isn't Scientology got something to do with aliens putting us here or something ?


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## tebor (Sep 16, 2009)

Puritans don't believe in evolution.
many Biblical scholars, especially Orthodox do believe in evolution
.
Evolution doesn't make most relegion look stupid. People do.
Many religous types don't accept evolution for the same reason many evolutionists won't accept the chance of a God.
They fancy themselves superior and feel smug by trying to make the other look bad.


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## krustofskie (Sep 17, 2009)

tebor said:


> Puritans don't believe in evolution.
> many Biblical scholars, especially Orthodox do believe in evolution
> .
> Evolution doesn't make most relegion look stupid. People do.
> ...


But evolution contradicts what most religions teach us, Adam and Eve????? Its the basses of the religions to control us with lies, thats why I say evolution makes the religions look stupid.

And your right, those evolutionists who wont accept a chance of god are just as close minded as the religions not accepting the chance of evolution. 

I personally don't believe there is a God, but I am open to the concept and accept there could be and this would still fit in with evolution, but evolution can not fit in with the sriptures the religions base their faith on.

Until we do have all the answers we can only hedge our bets with the whats most likely and the information we have to date.


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## bikeskill (Sep 22, 2009)

I agree, In my life time i have seen a lot of evidence that evolution is real, and NO evidence that "god" is real...I believe that god and religion is used as a scapegoat for when people don't understand something about how we came to be..they can't settle with we don't comprehend and we may never.......god is the easy way out


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## DEVO (Sep 22, 2009)

The whole subject is very interesting i find..... BUT i have also found that trying to discuss this with someone who is not of the same page thinker or at least similar, (open mind helps to) is the same as arguing with a 5 year old you will not win "no matter what you say or prove/disprove"
dont get me wrong i am a fan of heracy as the religious folks call it (independent/free thinking as the Normal folks call it) 
i like the way you think *krustofskie + rep for you
*


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## Brazko (Sep 22, 2009)

bikeskill said:


> I agree, In my life time i have seen a lot of evidence that evolution is real, and NO evidence that "god" is real...I believe that god and religion is used as a scapegoat for when people don't understand something about how we came to be..they can't settle with we don't comprehend and we may never.......god is the easy way out


If you keep Looking up for the Space God, You will never find evidence... I don't know why people use God to dispute Evolution, as the Two does not contradict with each Other.. The same people that dispute Space God are the Same as the People who Claim it.. Religion and God is as much as a Scapegoat for those who rely on Science to explain the world around them.. Science is a scapegoat for people who give up on thinking and lay captive to whatever their Science decides to unfold to them... Creative thinking allowed for the Theory of Relativity, E-=Mc2, Evolution, manipulation of electricty, etc. etc.. Science was/is the process of documenting and testing what was conceived by the creative thought gained by Observance.. as So it is with Religion, but instead it is not written, but experienced over and over again until a Formulation of understanding is Perceived..



DEVO said:


> The whole subject is very interesting i find..... BUT i have also found that trying to discuss this with someone who is not of the same page thinker or at least similar, (open mind helps to) is the same as arguing with a 5 year old you will not win "no matter what you say or prove/disprove"
> dont get me wrong i am a fan of heracy as the religious folks call it (independent/free thinking as the Normal folks call it)
> i like the way you think *krustofskie + rep for you*


totally Agree with your Assessment, I like the way KrusTo thinks too....


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## fish601 (Sep 23, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> Evolution and how life was formed on this earth does not bring into question wether or not there is a God. But it does make most religions look stupid.


If you really dig into all the fossil evidence, youll 
see there are no proven links that support 
the claim that evolution occurred from one species to another. Modern textbooks have filled in the blanks 
with assumptions, not facts. We have millions of fossils 
in our museums today, and not one of them prove that there was ever a species-to-species transition.

_http://www.evidenceforhope.com/Evolution%20versus%20Creation.html_


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## Nocturn3 (Sep 23, 2009)

fish601 said:


> If you really dig into all the fossil evidence, youll
> see there are no proven links that support
> the claim that evolution occurred from one species to another. Modern textbooks have filled in the blanks
> with assumptions, not facts. We have millions of fossils
> in our museums today, and not one of them prove that there was ever a species-to-species transition.http://www.evidenceforhope.com/Evolution%20versus%20Creation.html


If you really dig into Fish's post history, you'll see that he has repeatedly ignored the overwhelming amount of evidence that proves evolution. His lack of understanding has lead him to "fill in the blanks" with biased assumptions, whilst ignoring the documented facts.
We have millions of fossils in our museums today, and none of them are at odds with evolutionary theory. There are numerous documented "transitional fossils" (link), and a mountain of other evidence (genetics etc.).

As for you "really digging into the fossil record", that is a fucking joke. You have already proven that you simply skim articles looking for quotes that you can use. You don't even try to understand this stuff.


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## SmokerOfLightning (Sep 23, 2009)

Finally, something on this site I feel I can talk about intelligently. I creep forums and absorb and learn about growing but I think I can help a bit here. I am a budding biblical scholar and I study theology (mostly catholic some protestant) and also philosophy (epistemology, ethics, some metaphysics). Also dont take me for some crazy bible thumper you see on tv, I smoke waayyy to much weed, take way to many mushrooms to have my mind and opinions so brittle with fundamentalism. 

I don't see (and neither does ANYONE with half an ounce of intelligence {or scriptural educatin}) any problem with the idea of evolution. in no way does it justify the existence of any god or destroy the possibliy for one. 

Seperate the ideas of LITERALIST christians from the ideas of the main body of christianity (or other religions) Even catholics, straight up, rosary carrying catholics (are not supposed to) believe in a literal reading of genesis (adam and eve). scholars are taught today to read it as metaphor and allegory, a story that uses one thing to explain a truth that is difficult (or impossible) to understand when stated plainly. keep in mind too who the bible (the old testament anyway) was written for, very illiterate, superstitious, dumb jews (no hard feelings, they were jews though). 

basically what im trying to say is that serious and laid back bible scholars and theologians arent as retarded as jerry falwell, jack van impe and others.. and are actually open minded people searching for true meaning of scripture and truth in general about divinity.


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## Brazko (Sep 23, 2009)

SmokerOfLightning said:


> Finally, something on this site I feel I can talk about intelligently. I creep forums and absorb and learn about growing but I think I can help a bit here. I am a budding biblical scholar and I study theology (mostly catholic some protestant) and also philosophy (epistemology, ethics, some metaphysics). Also dont take me for some crazy bible thumper you see on tv, I smoke waayyy to much weed, take way to many mushrooms to have my mind and opinions so brittle with fundamentalism.
> 
> I don't see (and neither does ANYONE with half an ounce of intelligence {or scriptural educatin}) any problem with the idea of evolution. in no way does it justify the existence of any god or destroy the possibliy for one.
> 
> ...


Great Post Man!! I applaude you for being able to patiently explain that plainly and clearly.. I think intelligent discussions may start brewing in the near Future.. Seems like we are starting to get a few science based and religious based backgrounds of people who actually have some common sense/open minded to listening/learning.. ++ rep for making it Sound so eaZy to be said, I have problems giving away jewels, especially when I think they are not deserving @ the moment....++rep, U need some


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## krustofskie (Sep 28, 2009)

SmokerOfLightning said:


> Finally, something on this site I feel I can talk about intelligently. I creep forums and absorb and learn about growing but I think I can help a bit here. I am a budding biblical scholar and I study theology (mostly catholic some protestant) and also philosophy (epistemology, ethics, some metaphysics). Also dont take me for some crazy bible thumper you see on tv, I smoke waayyy to much weed, take way to many mushrooms to have my mind and opinions so brittle with fundamentalism.
> 
> I don't see (and neither does ANYONE with half an ounce of intelligence {or scriptural educatin}) any problem with the idea of evolution. in no way does it justify the existence of any god or destroy the possibliy for one.
> 
> ...


Very well thought out and logical responce +rep

If only this way of thinking could be passed onto the flock's by those in power of the faiths. Just seems the message doesn't get through to most

Its a lot worse in less developed countries. My wife is from Ghana and she is a true believer, when I try to talk to her about evolution she tells me to be quite and not blasphem as to contradtict the bible is against God. Now she is a well educated woman who even knows that the bible was written by man, but because of the type of brainwashing received from her church while growing up she will not listen or waver. I feel that the church wishes this type of ignorance to continue as to keep control over the flock. 

My wife just accepts that I must be a Pagen who knows no better, even though I was bought up Catholic.


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## Iron Lion Zion (Sep 28, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> But evolution contradicts what most religions teach us, Adam and Eve????? Its the basses of the religions to control us with lies, thats why I say evolution makes the religions look stupid.
> 
> And your right, those evolutionists who wont accept a chance of god are just as close minded as the religions not accepting the chance of evolution.
> 
> ...


You are looking at the Bible the wrong way, as do some extreme Christian sects. You are looking at the Bible as a history book, that also has people's real life experiences and how they listened to and followed God.

Most Christian denominations do not take the Bible literally. It should not be seen as a history book, but rather a "How To" guide (how to get into heaven, how to treat others, how God loves us, etc etc.) For example, when you look at the creation story, you are not supposed to look into it as "God literally did, this, this, and this in seven days." Instead it is supposed to be seen as "This is how powerful God is - this what he is capable of - he made us to try and be like him - we are his 'children.'

I honestly could not tell you my own personal beliefs. I definitely do believe in God, but I just think that most Christian religions are misguided - I do not think a being who created everything would care about our silly petitions/prayers to him. Rather, I think he would like us to all try and be as happy as possible, while simultaneously helping others do the same - treating them with the respect and dignity they deserve.

I have grown up in a pretty religious household and attended multiple Catholic institutions, so I have learned my fair share about my own religion and others. Despite this, I am just as unsure as anyone else.


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## Mcgician (Sep 28, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> Evolution and how life was formed on this earth does not bring into question wether or not there is a God. God can still fit in nicely with evolution.
> 
> What say ye all


Agreed. I feel sorry for the people that believe that the two are incompatible. It makes no difference to me either way. I will say this though, man is an incredibly arrogant species sometimes, and the thought that ANYONE knows the definitive answers to all these questions I will always roll eyes at.


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## NewDad09 (Sep 28, 2009)

All DNA is at least 99% the same, if evolution really took place then there is no way humans are the only thing as unique as we are. Screw the monkey comparisons, basic anatomy and physiology explain why their behvior is so similar. Structure dictates function, so if a monkey has similar limbs and features as a human, then those limbs will have similar uses for a monkey as well.


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## Green Cross (Sep 28, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> Evolution and how life was formed on this earth does not bring into question wether or not there is a God. But it does make most religions look stupid. I am so tierd of religious types time and time again using poor arguments about the small chances of the random events that could have led to life and evolution ever happening, even though by saying there is such small chances they are admiting there is a chance it happend. Once you take the narrow views of your religion out of the equation God can still fit in nicely with evolution.
> 
> What say ye all


It's not the religious people starting shit on this board; trying to force our beliefs down your throat, it's quite the opposite. 

It's the evolutionists who love to hear themselves talk.


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## litteringand... (Sep 28, 2009)

Green Cross said:


> It's not the religious people starting shit on this board; trying to force our beliefs down your throat, it's quite the opposite.
> 
> It's the evolutionists who love to hear themselves talk.


Maybe on this board that is true MAYBE. However seeing as over 20% of the US population now wants nothing to do with religon,however there were no athiest missionaries recruiting them. They also certainly don't have a political lobby. Can we say the same about religous sects? 
here is 29 exhibits of evidence for evolution happening. Still waiting on that one shred of evidence that it didn't.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/


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## Iron Lion Zion (Sep 28, 2009)

litteringand... said:


> Maybe on this board that is true MAYBE. However seeing as over 20% of the US population now wants nothing to do with religon,however there were no athiest missionaries recruiting them. They also certainly don't have a political lobby. Can we say the same about religous sects?
> here is 29 exhibits of evidence for evolution happening. Still waiting on that one shred of evidence that it didn't.
> 
> http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/


You don't need experiments/studies to prove that evolution exists... Evolution also has nothing to do with religion/God.


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## Mcgician (Oct 1, 2009)

NewDad09 said:


> All DNA is at least 99% the same, if evolution really took place then there is no way humans are the only thing as unique as we are. Screw the monkey comparisons, basic anatomy and physiology explain why their behvior is so similar. Structure dictates function, so if a monkey has similar limbs and features as a human, then those limbs will have similar uses for a monkey as well.


blah, blah, blah...........more conjecture. This is precisely what this thread is about- incomplete formulations, speculations, and human guesswork! None of what you said above is beyond dispute. Try again.


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## sunshine17542 (Oct 1, 2009)

God created everything. There is God and there is nothing.


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## towlie (Oct 1, 2009)

fish601 said:


> If you really dig into all the fossil evidence, youll
> see there are no proven links that support
> the claim that evolution occurred from one species to another. Modern textbooks have filled in the blanks
> with assumptions, not facts.




Um... Not trying to pick on you here Fish, but a 5-second Wikipedia search might help when posting on topics in which you clearly have no interest. 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/10/091001-oldest-human-skeleton-ardi-missing-link-chimps-ardipithecus-ramidus.html


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## Sgt. Floyd (Oct 1, 2009)

towlie said:


> Um... Not trying to pick on you here Fish, but a 5-second Wikipedia search might help when posting on topics in which you clearly have no interest.
> 
> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/10/091001-oldest-human-skeleton-ardi-missing-link-chimps-ardipithecus-ramidus.html


I think someone beat you to it.

First off, I'm a believer, raised Catholic. Evolution does not disprove God and vice versa. If one believes that God is omniscient one must allow for the fact that God created evolution along with all the scientific laws that govern the universe.


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## PadawanBater (Oct 1, 2009)

Sgt. Floyd said:


> I think someone beat you to it.
> 
> First off, I'm a believer, raised Catholic. Evolution does not disprove God and vice versa. If one believes that God is omniscient one must allow for the fact that God created evolution along with all the scientific laws that govern the universe.


 
I think this is a weak position to take. What's the difference between someone saying "God did it" and someone else saying "God did it through evolution"? Both statements have exactly the same amount of evidence. I think people take this approach to sort of sit in a ''neutral'' zone, where they keep the people who don't believe in God happy as well as the people who do. 

I really think it's a black/white kind of thing in this case. If not, then your statement "God did it through evolution" requires evidence to support it.


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## morgentaler (Oct 2, 2009)

Wow, the claim made earlier that not accepting evolution is equal to not believing in "God" is ludicrous.

There is evidence for evolution in such staggering amounts, over 200,000 scientific research papers on it alone, backed by all branches of science that anyone who follows a rational approach, vis a vis the scientific method of collecting and interpreting data, would come to the conclusion that it is a certainty. (Don't get pedantic over the word certainty. You can be certain that if you drop a brick in Earth gravity it will fall to the ground as well.)

Meanwhile the evidence for "God" is...
well...
um...

There isn't any. 

Some people may say "Well we don't know how the Universe started. Therefore... PROOF! GOD! TA DA!"

Well, we also didn't know how to light fires at some point in history. Sickness was attributed to demons/sin/etc.

Lack of sufficient information to make conjecture or form a hypothesis is not proof of anything. All of the traits that people assign to god to make him intangible to man can also be assigned to any number of imaginary creations. And in this information age many people are so far behind on what is known, they still attribute superstitious nonsense to things which science has understood for decades.

There is currently more evidence for the existence of Santa Claus than for the existence of "God". (Where did those milk and cookies go? Ooooh! Presents) The evidence can be proven false or true through observation, but that's the whole point. You can't prove or disprove an imaginary being.


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## Sgt. Floyd (Oct 2, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> I think this is a weak position to take. What's the difference between someone saying "God did it" and someone else saying "God did it through evolution"? Both statements have exactly the same amount of evidence. I think people take this approach to sort of sit in a ''neutral'' zone, where they keep the people who don't believe in God happy as well as the people who do.
> 
> I really think it's a black/white kind of thing in this case. If not, then your statement "God did it through evolution" requires evidence to support it.


There is absolutely no difference in those statements. I'm not trying to argue the point in either direction. I'm definitely not trying to use that position to convince an atheist that there is a creator. I all said was that for some one who believes, the Theory of Evolution doesn't necessarily prove that there is no God. Point me to where in the Theory of Evolution it says "because x=y, there is absolutely no possibility for a creator." 

In the end, its people with faith( people I see as having an undeniable urge to believe that there is something bigger than us) arguing against people that have none. Who knows, maybe faith is something that evolved out of some biological imperative. I accept that there are some things that we can't know with absolute certainty.


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## litteringand... (Oct 2, 2009)

I guess if you believe in God you can't lose. First it was God made us. Then it is God made us through evolution. Why is that? Religion can not dispute evolution therefore they put it into their principals and say we knew all along evolution existed but god got the ball rolling. If you thinks evolution has nothing to do with religion or god you are sadly mistaken imho. Religions have all taught for centuries we were put here as we are, and they were Wrong! To agree with evolution is to disagree with a fundamental teaching in just about every religion. Oh and fish you really aren't helping your cause we have found many of the "missing links" all over the world you just choose not to acknowledge them. None of you religious folks have ever shown me one piece of evidence that there is a higher power. I think we can agree there is at least one evidence that evolution happened. I also welcome someone to tell me about the flaws in carbon and radiation dating. Anyhow, I think they use god as an argument cause that is all they have besides the bible which proves nothing and never has. I used to be religious, and I don't regret it because it made me who I am today.


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## luckydog82 (Oct 2, 2009)

I like the topic of this thread very interesting,I think of myself as an atheist.I was raised catholic made to believe that god sees everything so i would be good but believing in father christmas santa clause whatever you call him seems the same but when you get older you realise that he,s not real.You were told to be good for santa or no presents.I believe the same is said about God if you don't live a good life no presents i.e. no pass to heaven.
Think back before christianity,judaism and muslim(they all stem from the same stories just changed a little to suit the times)what did people believe in.Take the pagans for example they believed in the sun the moon the seasons which they worshipped.Now the Pagans used to celebrate 25 Dec before christianity I think its to do with a star rising in the sky.
I could go on and on but i won't.Now say you were a powerful king or chieftan and you wanted to control the masses of people what better way then to tell everybody that you are being watched from above what would you think with your limited knowledge of how things work.
All religions are all based on faith and belief thats all you need there is no proof all these books were written over long periods of time hundreds of years ago.They were stories that were told then written down and as any good writer the stories would exaggerated.Every religion are linked by one or more stories or miracles as they sometimes are called.
Religion has been used to control people,justify war,justify genocide etc,It used to be about land but now its money
Each to they own thats what i think if you wish to BELIEVE that is your choice but in the end we all end up dust


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## atheisty (Oct 2, 2009)

Nocturn3 said:


> If you really dig into Fish's post history, you'll see that he has repeatedly ignored the overwhelming amount of evidence that proves evolution. His lack of understanding has lead him to "fill in the blanks" with biased assumptions, whilst ignoring the documented facts.
> We have millions of fossils in our museums today, and none of them are at odds with evolutionary theory. There are numerous documented "transitional fossils" (link), and a mountain of other evidence (genetics etc.).
> 
> As for you "really digging into the fossil record", that is a fucking joke. You have already proven that you simply skim articles looking for quotes that you can use. You don't even try to understand this stuff.


 rofl thats comedy
no comeback from that


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## morgentaler (Oct 2, 2009)

A great quote:
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful - Seneca the Younger

The standard challenge religion has to science is "the god of the gaps".
Every time knew knowledge becomes available to us through science, religion steps up and announces "But we don't know how this works, and that is indisputable proof of God!"...
Until an explanation is found for that as well.
Then religion jumps on to another topic and uses that.

Evolution, abiogenesis, and the big bang / expansion are favorite targets for religion because they deal with the collection of vast amounts of abstracts data, and many religious groups are far, far, behind the curve in even interpreting what we do know about these topics. The top three sources quoted by creationists are Hovind, Comfort, and Behe.

Hovind is a convicted fraudster, serving time.
Ray Comfort is a showman who makes videos with Kirk Cameron, and it is painfully apparent when he speaks that he doesn't have the first clue about basic biology, let alone evolution.
Behe, on the other hand, is a man with a degree, and oddly the less quoted of the three. You would think the guy with the degree would be the first one quoted, wouldn't you? But he's just as batshit as the rest, even giving testimony in court that his concept of scientific theories could include astrology. (Sorry to break it to you horoscope readers, but that's a bunch of hooey too  )

Faith isn't just harmless. It is the suspension of critical thought. Whether it is religious faith or dogmatic faith, once you stop questioning the words or deeds of the people around you, you become part of the mob.
For example, the anti-vaccination movement has grown thanks to a bunch of desperate parents, looking for something to blame autism on other than heredity, jumped on a published report linking autism and vaccinations. The Wakefield study was later found to have had falsified data, and no study since has found a link between vaccines and autism. Yet this report is still waved around like a battle standard, and people rally to it. Because they have faith. They take the claims of the person that tells them what they want to hear at face value and that's where their investigations stop.


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## Sgt. Floyd (Oct 2, 2009)

litteringand... said:


> I guess if you believe in God you can't lose. First it was God made us. Then it is God made us through evolution. Why is that? Religion can not dispute evolution therefore they put it into their principals and say we knew all along evolution existed but god got the ball rolling. If you thinks evolution has nothing to do with religion or god you are sadly mistaken imho. Religions have all taught for centuries we were put here as we are, and they were Wrong! To agree with evolution is to disagree with a fundamental teaching in just about every religion. Oh and fish you really aren't helping your cause we have found many of the "missing links" all over the world you just choose not to acknowledge them. None of you religious folks have ever shown me one piece of evidence that there is a higher power. I think we can agree there is at least one evidence that evolution happened. I also welcome someone to tell me about the flaws in carbon and radiation dating. Anyhow, I think they use god as an argument cause that is all they have besides the bible which proves nothing and never has. I used to be religious, and I don't regret it because it made me who I am today.


I'm pretty sure most religions still try pretty damn hard to dispute evolution. I live in the Southern US and the dispute over teaching evolution vs creation is still a _very _touchy subject. 

And since when is god an argument? You can argue for or against god but using god to argue a point is pointless. Someone tell me where I tried to do that. The only thing I'm trying to argue is that mans inability to know everything should make us keep and open mind and question everything.

The topic of the thread is "why do people use god to try and disprove evolution?" All I'm asking is "why do people use evolution to try and disprove god?" Does evolution disprove the doctrines of different denominations? Damn right it does. Does evolution absolutely deny the existence of a creator? No, it hasn't yet.

The way I see it god is just as unlikely as seemingly perfect chain of events that led to the evolution of man. The chances of either one are astronomical. Until we can test the theories with results that can be replicated, we can't _truly _know. I see the complex chemical and physical interactions that make life possible and hold the universe together as evidence for a creator. But evidence has to be interpreted and we don't know all the facts. Interpretations change as we learn more.


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## Mauihund (Oct 2, 2009)

Because they can...............


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## kindman (Oct 2, 2009)

there is fosil evidence of evolution!
*By ROBERT S. BOYD*

*McClatchy Newspapers*


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Move over, Lucy. A 4-foot-tall female nicknamed Ardi, who lived 4.4 million years ago in Africa, has replaced you as the earliest best known ancestor of the human species.
Ardi's nearly complete skeleton is 1 million years older than Lucy's, pushing back the point when hominids - pre-human primates - are known to have split from the evolutionary line that led to chimpanzees and gorillas, an international team of scientists announced Thursday.
"Ardi is not a chimp. It's not a human. It's what we used to be," said paleontologist Tim White, an authority on human evolution at the University of California, Berkeley.
White and his colleagues spent 15 years recovering and studying Ardi's bones before Thursday's announcement.
Ardi is "on our side of the family tree, not the chimpanzee side," White told a news conference in Washington sponsored by the journal Science.
Ardi is named for her genus and species, Ardipithecus ramidus, a distant cousin of Lucy's line, Australopithecus afarensis.
The discovery sheds new light on human evolution during a previously little known epoch. Scientists believe that humans and apes both descended from a "last common ancestor," an even more primitive primate that lived between 7 million and 9 million years ago.
Ardi isn't the last common ancestor, White said, but "it's the closest we've come to the last common ancestor."
A few older hominid skulls and teeth have been discovered, but nothing as complete as Ardi or Lucy.
The first of Ardi's bones, a single tooth, was discovered in 1992, not far from where Lucy's skeleton was buried in the fossil-rich Afar Rift of Ethiopia. Later, more than 100 other pieces, including bits of a skull, hand, foot and pelvis, were carefully eased out of the volcanic soil and reassembled.
The remains of 35 other individuals, plus birds, animals and plants, were also found there.
White called the project to assemble Ardi, which eventually involved 47 scientists from 10 different countries, "a scientific mission into the very deep past. ... It was like discovering a time capsule from a period and place we knew nothing about."
Owen Lovejoy, an evolutionary biologist at Ohio's Kent State University, said Ardi is "an image of what our early ancestors must have looked like."
Ardi's hands, feet, pelvis and teeth are more like the bones of modern humans than of chimpanzees or gorillas. For example, her pelvis is modified for walking upright on the ground, as well as climbing trees.
"Ardi was not a knuckle-walker (like apes)," Lovejoy said. But she probably couldn't have outrun the smaller, more advanced Lucy.
"If Ardi and Lucy had a race, Lucy would win handily," Lovejoy said.
Ardi was a woodland creature, with a small brain, long arms and short legs. Her discovery disproves the earlier theory that pre-humans learned to walk when they came down from trees to live on open savannas, White said.
She probably ate fruit, berries, mushrooms, birds, bats and mice and other small mammals, judging by her teeth and the remains found where she was discovered. Scientists can tell she was female because of the shape of her canine teeth and her pelvis.
The Afar Rift is a large basin created when the Arabian peninsula split off from Africa millions of years ago. The breakup also produced the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden. Afar is often called "The Cradle of Humankind," because so many hominid remains have been found there.
Ardi was the subject of 11 scientific papers published in Friday's issue of the journal Science. It will be the subject of a two-hour program, "Discovering Ardis," on the Discovery channel at 9 p.m. EDT Sunday.

*Posted on Thu, Oct. 01, 2009 04:21 PM*


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## Mauihund (Oct 2, 2009)

Brazko said:


> If you keep Looking up for the Space God, You will never find evidence... I don't know why people use God to dispute Evolution, as the Two does not contradict with each Other.. The same people that dispute Space God are the Same as the People who Claim it.. Religion and God is as much as a Scapegoat for those who rely on Science to explain the world around them.. Science is a scapegoat for people who give up on thinking and lay captive to whatever their Science decides to unfold to them... Creative thinking allowed for the Theory of Relativity, E-=Mc2, Evolution, manipulation of electricty, etc. etc.. Science was/is the process of documenting and testing what was conceived by the creative thought gained by Observance.. as So it is with Religion, but instead it is not written, but experienced over and over again until a Formulation of understanding is Perceived..



I think the two sides contradict each other as far as either approach says it does. They are all just theories trying to explain our experiences and surroundings. Neither is worthy of "putting our faith in". Even Einstein can be full of shit. He just makes it sound good.

So, I guess I'm agreeing with you to a point. Just like many groups in the scientific community who interpret their experiences into the data they gather, so do religious groups. Then they just feed on each others opinions, as long as it supports what they already think they understand. 




Brazko said:


> So it is with Religion, but instead *it is not written, but experienced* over and over again until a Formulation of understanding is Perceived..


I think a Muslim or Christian would say it is both written and experienced. It supports your claim if it were true that a Formulation of understanding came from experience alone because there is no standard in which to judge, but it isn't.


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## PadawanBater (Oct 2, 2009)

Mauihund said:


> I think the two sides contradict each other as far as either approach says it does. They are all just theories trying to explain our experiences and surroundings. Neither is worthy of "putting our faith in". Even Einstein can be full of shit. He just makes it sound good.
> 
> So, I guess I'm agreeing with you to a point. Just like many groups in the scientific community who interpret their experiences into the data they gather, so do religious groups. Then they just feed on each others opinions, as long as it supports what they already think they understand.


 
That's absurd!

There is a HUGE difference between what the churches do and what scientists do. It's not AT ALL interpretation of the data. It's independent, corroborative research that points in one direction. How do you suggest a scientist working in London would get the exact same result as a scientist working in Los Angeles in some random experiment? It's because they both look at the data that is given to them through the experiment and simply report it back to us as they see it. There is no interpretation involved. Sometimes they get it wrong and more data shows new evidence, that doesn't mean they interpreted it wrong, that means they didn't have all the pieces to the puzzle yet.


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## Mauihund (Oct 2, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> That's absurd!
> 
> There is a HUGE difference between what the churches do and what scientists do. How do you suggest a scientist working in London would get the exact same result as a scientist working in Los Angeles in some random experiment? It's because they both look at the data that is given to them through the experiment and simply report it back to us as they see it. There is no interpretation involved. Sometimes they get it wrong and more data shows new evidence, that doesn't mean they interpreted it wrong, that means they didn't have all the pieces to the puzzle yet.



All data needs interpretation. Interpretation comes when the data needs to be used for something. Otherwise, it's useless data. The reason these people can come up with the same conclusions is because the experiment was probably recreated the way the original experimenter set it up.....to draw the same conclusion. No one wants their life's work to be meaningless. Something personal is always at stake when a man is trying to prove something. 

It don't beleive I can afford to be naive in this life. If someone told me "It's independent, corroborative research that points in *one *direction.", I'd have to wonder. It use to be that "the scientists" beleived the world was flat. Thank God they were wrong. How much else has "the scientific" community been wrong about?


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## cbtwohundread (Oct 2, 2009)

I dont believe in the evolution of man from monkeys.,.,doesnt make sense to i.,.,its not like we are watching monkeys get more and more like us or sumthing.,.,people and our nature sometimes has us lo0k in the wrong place for answers to life.,.,science came round about the same time desruction of man did.,.,people tired of a simple life.,.,with a heart full of greed and vanity started tryna make sense the best way they could.,.,with lies.,.assumptions.,.,and materialism.,.,i dont care for science but iman love nature,.,.,.so u lo0k to science i wil,l lo0k 2 the trees ,sky,ocean,and dirt.,.,when i speak my enemies cry,when i shit they die


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## cbtwohundread (Oct 2, 2009)

To the person that left i the rep.,.,thank u.,.,u asked i "out of wat?" i say othey helped us out of a life of fo0d and water,and love,and one blo0d,one community.,.,to seperation,materializm,vanity,and greed.its ashame that man to man we dont kno who to trust.,.,.,its ashmed that noone loves the trees., .,they love the guitar,the houses,ect.,.,they all come from the trees.,.,ini plan on moving to india to live with the sadhus for seven years of i life.,.,nothing could get i closer to the earth than that.,.,.,i say earth is the lord .,.,.and u cant take life to the life giver.,.,


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## Mauihund (Oct 2, 2009)

cbtwohundread said:


> To the person that left i the rep.,.,thank u.,.,u asked i "out of wat?" i say othey helped us out of a life of fo0d and water,and love,and one blo0d,one community.,.,to seperation,materializm,vanity,and greed.its ashame that man to man we dont kno who to trust.,.,.,its ashmed that noone loves the trees., .,they love the guitar,the houses,ect.,.,they all come from the trees.,.,ini plan on moving to india to live with the sadhus for seven years of i life.,.,nothing could get i closer to the earth than that.,.,.,i say earth is the lord .,.,.*and u cant take life to the life giver.,*.,



I think thats awesome.


btw: Excellent profile pic


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## cbtwohundread (Oct 2, 2009)

mauihund said:


> i think thats awesome.


 thank u m.h.,.,im glad u overstand where im coming from massive *rep


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## PadawanBater (Oct 2, 2009)

Mauihund said:


> All data needs interpretation. Interpretation comes when the data needs to be used for something. Otherwise, it's useless data. The reason these people can come up with the same conclusions is because the experiment was probably recreated the way the original experimenter set it up.....to draw the same conclusion. No one wants their life's work to be meaningless. Something personal is always at stake when a man is trying to prove something.
> 
> It don't beleive I can afford to be naive in this life. If someone told me "It's independent, corroborative research that points in *one *direction.", I'd have to wonder. It use to be that "the scientists" beleived the world was flat. Thank God they were wrong. How much else has "the scientific" community been wrong about?


As I've said before, _scientists_ did not ever think the world was flat. Ignorant, uneducated, dark age people, 99% of which had some form of belief in God, are the ones who believed the world was flat. It's not until the scientists came along and figured out the concept of gravity that we figured out the earth wasn't flat.

It's SCIENCE that proved the earth was a sphere, it's RELIGION that held us back because the Bible is the one that proposes a ''flat earth''.


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## morgentaler (Oct 2, 2009)

Oh they figured out the earth wasn't flat loooooong before Newton was even born. Observations were noted that ships coming over the horizon appeared sails first, and then the ship. If the Earth was flat, the approaching ships would have started out as whole in appearance and simply gotten bigger.
This was observed before there were actual scientists, when the closest thing was a philosopher. The Greeks and Romans understood the concept of a round Earth over a thousand years before people were placing bets Columbus was going to sail off the edge.

As for evolution and god, there's no actual reason for anyone who has confidence (not faith) in the theory of evolution to worry about god. The concept of god is irrelevant, and adds nothing to the either the evidence or the consideration of the process. The Theory of Evolution deals with change over time. That's it. It disregards religion in its entirety.

Those who feel threatened by evolution, and demand that proof be required to show that god doesn't exist miss something very important. The burden of proof lies with them to prove the existence of their claimed deity. If someone claims that the sun rises each morning because leprechauns fart burning raisins into the sky, if you don't have them committed first, you'll want to see their proof of this. It's no different with any claimed supernatural phenomenon.

Here's a wikipedia article on the "flat earth" concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth
(Not as widely believed as most people think)


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## luckydog82 (Oct 2, 2009)

As long as people have used boats on the water it has been known the earth was round. When standing on a beach waiting for the boats to come staring out to the horizon its the mast or sails would have been seen first making the boat appear to rise out of the water hence proving the world was round.And how long have people been using boats
Evolution takes time alot of time for small changes and one thing the earth has had is alot of time unless you believe the bible.If it took God seven days to create the world what did he do before he did this,and we are suppose to believe our whole human race come from one man and one woman now that is some fucked up incest shit right there.Evolution just makes sense to me nature finds a way to cope with changes to the world over time, somethings die others take there place in both animals and plants,certain traits favour certain life survival of the fittest it can be seen everywhere.99% of all life that has lived on this earth is extinct and if earths time was a clock ,humans (homo sapiens) first arrive i think 23:55.
And the next time you see a bird maybe an ostrich and remember the raptor that film its plan as day that birds evolved from dinosaurs.Also did you ever see blind insects or fish that live in caves that could only form over thousands of years and yet it has blind insects fish lizards which could have only evolved in the caves. I'm high so i will stop now i could type for hours proving evolution and for days disproving god but i won't as everyone has the choice to believe what they want but they should be given the choice and the knowledge to choose for themselves but when you are brought up by your parents beliefs its very hard for some to change their mind when they get older.Use the internet investigate the religions see where they all come from and why they are so many and how similar they all are. i'll stop


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## luckydog82 (Oct 2, 2009)

As long as people have used boats it has been known the earth was round.When standing on the beach waiting for the boats to come home looking out to the horizon its the mast or sails that could be seen first making the boat appear to rise out of the water hence the earth was round
evolution just makes sense explain why else a whale would have hind leg bones unless at one stage whale moved from land to water. Also in some caves blind insects,fish and lizards live yet the caves weren't always there they were formed and the insects fish or lizards could only have evolved in the caves no other explanation


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## morgentaler (Oct 2, 2009)

Yup, you're high


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## krustofskie (Oct 3, 2009)

cbtwohundread said:


> I dont believe in the evolution of man from monkeys.,.,doesnt make sense to i.,.,its not like we are watching monkeys get more and more like us or sumthing.


Im sorry but you obviously dont understand Evolution. Firstly we did not evolve from monkeys but apes, two different species. The reason apes are not looking more and more like us as time goes by is because the ones around now are not the ones we evolved from, rather us and them both evolved from the same "ancestor" way back when.
Other than that you seem to have a healthy look on life and seem open to reason so +rep


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## krustofskie (Oct 3, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Yup, you're high


Agreed, hes flying waaaayy high


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## cbtwohundread (Oct 3, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> Im sorry but you obviously dont understand Evolution. Firstly we did not evolve from monkeys but apes, two different species. The reason apes are not looking more and more like us as time goes by is because the ones around now are not the ones we evolved from, rather us and them both evolved from the same "ancestor" way back when.
> Other than that you seem to have a healthy look on life and seem open to reason so +rep


thank u.,.,most people just call me crazy.,.,but i am.,.,.being sane is being.,.,"norm".,.,or "in-a-box".,.,anything my mind can think of can happen.,.,anything that can happen my mind can think of.,.,but go to hell if wat ure thinking is not rite.,.,no fuss no fight.,.,oh and no i dont overstand evolution in a whole.,.but maybe ini can read up a lil more,read down a lil less


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## PadawanBater (Oct 3, 2009)

cbtwohundread said:


> thank u.,.,most people just call me crazy.,.,but i am.,.,.being sane is being.,.,"norm".,.,or "in-a-box".,.,anything my mind can think of can happen.,.,anything that can happen my mind can think of.,.,but go to hell if wat ure thinking is not rite.,.,no fuss no fight.,.,oh and no i dont overstand evolution in a whole.,.but maybe ini can read up a lil more,read down a lil less


 
I'm just curious, every post you make reads just like this one. You can't possibly speak like that in real life, right? So why do you type like that?


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## Mauihund (Oct 3, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> I'm just curious, every post you make reads just like this one. You can't possibly speak like that in real life, right? So why do you type like that?



I'm just curious, are you a dick, or just uneducated in other cultures?


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## jesus of Cannabis (Oct 3, 2009)

ya ebullys are here.


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## Mauihund (Oct 3, 2009)

jesus of Cannabis said:


> ya ebullys are here.



I'm not an ebully. I just get mad sometimes. But, I try to be respectful, even with a rebuke.


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## PadawanBater (Oct 4, 2009)

Mauihund said:


> I'm just curious, are you a dick, or just uneducated in other cultures?


 
Apparently I'm uneducated in other cultures. Am I supposed to know the subtle differences in words and sentence structure of every culture or what?


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## morgentaler (Oct 6, 2009)

&#28784;&#12290;&#12354;&#12394;&#12383;&#12431;&#12395;&#12411;&#12435;&#12372;&#12364;&#12431;&#12363;&#12426;&#12414;&#12377;&#12363;&#65311;


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## Green Cross (Oct 6, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> But evolution contradicts what most religions teach us, Adam and Eve????? Its the basses of the religions to control us with lies, thats why I say evolution makes the religions look stupid.
> 
> And your right, those evolutionists who wont accept a chance of god are just as close minded as the religions not accepting the chance of evolution.
> 
> ...


You're ideas about what others belief, are way off base. The theory of evolution has nothing to do with religion. 

It's pretty obvious you've never studied religion, or spelling, but the state teaches you to embrace evolution... and you do.

Maybe study on your own, and try to learn more that you were taught in the public school system, before making a fool out of yourself?


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## Green Cross (Oct 6, 2009)

jesus of Cannabis said:


> ya ebullys are here.


The blogger are sitting in their underwear, in their parents basements, again? lol


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## mexiblunt (Oct 6, 2009)

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/10/091001-oldest-human-skeleton-ardi-missing-link-chimps-ardipithecus-ramidus.html

This just in!!! ARDI. One million years older than Lucy.


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## litteringand... (Oct 6, 2009)

NewDad09 said:


> All DNA is at least 99% the same, if evolution really took place then there is no way humans are the only thing as unique as we are. Screw the monkey comparisons, basic anatomy and physiology explain why their behvior is so similar. Structure dictates function, so if a monkey has similar limbs and features as a human, then those limbs will have similar uses for a monkey as well.


Actually you just proved yourself wrong all DNA is 99% the same thats why when they injected a fruit fly with eye cells from a mouse it grew eyes everywhere all over it's body. That DNA was read by the fly and made fly eyes not mammal eyes. That is strong evidence to support an original single ancestor just as darwin had predicted :Gasp:


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## Pyro Peaches (Oct 7, 2009)

*Agreed. I do not believe in God.... and I do not believe in any one specific religion. I believe there are many Gods.. and I also believe in the theory of evolution*. 
*I think everyone needs to just believe what they want, and not butt into everyone else's beliefs. After all, we were born with free will for a reason... we all have the choice what we want to believe or not believe. 
I don't claim any one specific religion because I don't think any one religion makes perfect sense. Religion, like evolution, is just a theory. Not everyone is gonna agree with every little detail of it. 
And that should be okay with everyone, but not everyone sees it that way.*


krustofskie said:


> Evolution and how life was formed on this earth does not bring into question wether or not there is a God.
> Once you take the narrow views of your religion out of the equation God can still fit in nicely with evolution


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## morgentaler (Oct 7, 2009)

The word theory...
It does not mean what you think it means.

In science a theory is arrived at by observation of evidence, testing, and experimentation.

To the religious, a theory is a guess.

But to the religious a cracker can be the flesh of a resurrected dead guy.

My bet's on science.


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## krustofskie (Oct 8, 2009)

Green Cross said:


> You're ideas about what others belief, are way off base. The theory of evolution has nothing to do with religion.
> 
> It's pretty obvious you've never studied religion, or spelling, but the state teaches you to embrace evolution... and you do.
> 
> Maybe study on your own, and try to learn more that you were taught in the public school system, before making a fool out of yourself?


You sir are an ass. If you want to start insulting me on my spelling get your fucking grammar correct first, it should be 'You're ideas about what others believe' not 'belief'. I was not bought up to believe in evolution, its a decision I took from looking at the evidence and doing some self learning. And your assumptions of public schooling, where the fuck does that come from and what the hell does it have to do with anything. What is your problem with a public school education, do you think that they teach lies where a private school will teach the truth. I'm sure you would like the poor to go uneducated, at least that way all the bullshit of the church will be swallowed so much easier if you keep the Rif-Raf from learning.

I must have obviously hit a nerve for you to attack me about my education, in doing so you show your true colours. 

And your right, evolution has nothing to do with religion. What it does have to do with though is seeking the truth. I'm sorry that along the way of seeking the truth it has shown that the literal teachings of man made organised religions to be false. Then the churches turn round and tell us not to take their books literally but as a guide, talk about change your tune when proved a liar.

You think me a fool greencross, well I may be, but I most certiantly will not foolishly follow any organised religion.

PS:- You may want to point out some more of my spelling mistakes, if you do I will then tell you to shut the fuck up and learn English, thats ENGLISH from ENGLAND not the US


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## morgentaler (Oct 8, 2009)

Religion wants us to stand with the munchkins and bow down to the Wizard.
Science teaches us to look behind the curtain.


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## morgentaler (Oct 8, 2009)

Awwwwwww. How cute. 
Mauihund went off to call us monkeys in the "I once..." thread.

I'm touched. 

But we're actually primates of the ape variety. Monkeys are a separate evolutionary branch.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 27, 2010)

[youtube]3T9yIBz7qMA&NR[/youtube]


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## morgentaler (Jan 27, 2010)

Son of a gun. Phylogenetically we can now fit within the monkey tree. That tricky Linnaeus!
That must please Mauihund and the other people who just popped magically into existence instead of evolving.
[youtube]4A-dMqEbSk8[/youtube]


Did WH lose their bottle of meds? It's been like a spamfest of Phish videos.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 28, 2010)

morgentaler said:


> Did WH lose their bottle of meds?



No worries, we have plenty of bottles thanks to the phishy pharmacies.

Videos are effective, efficient communication devices.

One song provides least these extra dimensions of content:

feeling
title
video
youtube comments

So even though you may have connected to the concepts, the music or some other filter diverted your attention to the spam bucket.

Why would the original Hippies of Woodstock Industries do that to give such a *"high signs"* of a lifetime?

[youtube]e7ixKWmYux8[/youtube][youtube]YKHhpzFSKOg[/youtube]

Thank goodness someone can define our words, Mr. Morgentaler

otherwise, the rules wouldn't work.

*Super-Big +rep* for offending everyone in such a kind, logical way.

IT really makes us think.

With this in mind Mr. morgentaler, do you believe Scientific Adam and Eve could be real?


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## grow4joe (Jan 28, 2010)

morgentaler said:


> The word theory...
> It does not mean what you think it means.
> 
> In science a theory is arrived at by observation of evidence, testing, and experimentation.
> ...


Amen...


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## morgentaler (Jan 28, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> Videos are effective, efficient communication devices.
> 
> One song provides least these extra dimensions of content:


So music videos are your way of communicating your opinion to the world?

Okay, we've established you're a 13 year old girl.

And you like Phish.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 28, 2010)

morgentaler said:


> And you like Phish.


[youtube]e7ixKWmYux8[/youtube][youtube]u_zAUrOq-Dc[/youtube]

We ask you this very simple question, kind Sirs.

"How many lifetimes would the original Hippies of Woodstock Industries wait to give such a *"high signs" *of a lifetime?"


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