# What's your audio system like?



## ViRedd (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm into vacuum tubes and vinyl. My belief is, digital ended what transistors started; the complete ruination of reproduced music in the home. Agree or disagree?

Vi

PS: Digital sucks.


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## BIGMIKE13 (Dec 10, 2007)

kraco deck and two 6x9's.........


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## Father Jack (Dec 10, 2007)

we're a dying breed there ViRedd.

I love my vinyl and I love 2 channel stereo....but I can't afford tubes. The only tube gear I have is an old tube tuner. Sounds much sweeter than SS tuners that I've listened to.

I have made the jump to surround sound lately after many years of holding off. It does make TV sound better and works well for most DVD's. I built it piece by piece so I could maintain my 2 channel setup without compromising sound quality. 

There is some good digital media to be found if you look for it. maybe not as good as a well recorded analogue media...but pretty damn nice. DVD_A is getting very good as well as SACD. Of course you need more gear to hear these high resolution formats...but worth it in the long run.

Just don't ever ask me to play a fuckin MP3 on my system...thats blasphemy.

Drink!


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## bongspit (Dec 14, 2007)

I have an onkyo system I have had for about 25 years, I recently upgraded to bose speakers with the little speakers and the sub thingy. mine has a turntable and when I play my old vinyl my 20 year son laughs at me...
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## UnEmploymentDude (Dec 14, 2007)

I enjoy both, I've learned to get with the times and adapt. But I still love analog, its just beautiful.


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## Wavels (Dec 14, 2007)

I love my cds...I respectfully disagree with Vi...I hate, loathe and detest vinyl......
the pops and sputters and crackles annoy me beyond reproach.
How can Louis Armstong's Hot Fives sound good on vinyl?
Artie Shaw is much better on remastered cds than on any vinyl I have ever heard. Art Tatum on an LP....no thanks...too many pukes and pops and sputters for me!
Vacuum tubes are all well and good, but the *source *for me *has *to be digital!
Father Jack is spot on regarding SACD and DVDA!
MP3s are a disgrace!


Although I would like to park myself in front of Vi's stereo and see if he can change my mind!!


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## Father Jack (Dec 15, 2007)

Wavels....you obviously have never sat in front of a well maintained...well built analogue system. If you take care of your LP's...then the pops and crackles are not there.

If you happen to live in a large city...try and find a high end audio store...and tell them you are looking into a vinyl setup and you want to audition a table or two. Sit yourself down and get enveloped in a true analogue sound. You don;t tire of listening to the music over a long period of time like you do with cd's. It has been proven many times that listening to a digital format is tiring for the ears.

NOw I could be saying this all in vain...as maybe you are one of the folks that doesn't have an ear for sonics. I have freinds that come over and couldn't tell if I had the radio on or an SACD....it's not everyone that can hear the difference.

I'm not saying my ears or other audiophile ears are so good we can hear grass grow....but you must have the ability and appreciation for fine musical reproduction. CD's have come along way....but take a look around the high-fi world. You may question why there are more turntbale and turntable accessory manufacturers than there was in the 70's, which was the hayday of vinyl. Mind you the analogue stuff being made now is higher end quality...cause thats where the difference is. You're not gonna hear a huge difference hooking your Techinics TT up to your One box Surround system you bought at Best Buy as opposed to hooking a TT up to a system made for playing music instead hosting a light show on the front panel while trying to pump out some sound through an amp that has a power supply the size of a cell phone.

Drink!


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## country cowfreak (Dec 15, 2007)

Father Jack,
I agree with you on the days of analog and vinyl. I remember getting an album and admiring the art work the went into the album cover. I have three kids and they had seen the old turntable and album and asked what they were, and I laughed and told them that is what we call old time CD's. They couldn't believe that is how we listened to music. Unfortunatley much of what I have now is MP3's and CD's , but on the up side my kids now have all of the Guitar Hero installments so they jam out to much of the classic rock that I grew up with in surround sound...a concert everyday.


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## Wavels (Dec 15, 2007)

Well, Father I frequent many audiophile shops and have listened to loads of setups. ( I live in a major megalopolis)
I am a music junkie. I like more acoustic natural music---Jazz and Classical.
My problem is,_* I*_ always hear MORE distortion (pops) etc from the vinyl on _*any *_system and esp. on headphones. I listen to mostly older recordings and for me, vinyl is unacceptable. Loud raucous rock and other amplified music of newer vintage is not my preference.
CDs played thru analog vacuum tube amps *do* sound warmer and less harsh...but it is the popping and hiss (on all of the LPs I have tried) during quiet passages that makes me nuts.

This is an interesting thread.

Besides my understanding is that an LP is only "good" for about one hundred plays or so before it degrades??


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## Wavels (Dec 15, 2007)

My curiosity was aroused because after I responded to the good Fathers post, I realized that I had not sat down and listened to a high end turntable and amp demo in about five years or so.
I searched google and was surprised to see how contentious and fierce this debate still is.
There are valid points made on both sides of this issue.
Some of the information I came across has motivated me to go out and demo some high end analog tube amps and preamps and the aforementioned dreaded turntables.
It seems that some progress has been made in eliminating surface noise inherent in any physical contact source; in the past I have found that this surface noise detracts from my enjoyment of the music. Any improvement in warmth or gooiness was offset by the hiss and pops.
I love my DVD-A discs and I thought that this improvement in digital sound would forever keep me away from vinyl.
Looks like *I could be wrong*. I am going out next week and checking out what is currently available.
Considering that I have not splurged on any new toys for myself yet this year I&#8217;ll see if I can find something to blow a wad of cash on.
After all, you can&#8217;t take anything with you when you croak!


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## iblazethatkush (Dec 15, 2007)

You should of just titled this thread 'Who's an old motherfucker' haha J/K
I don't know what the hell your talking about, though, sounds like your talking a foreign language.


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## t0k3s (Dec 15, 2007)

iblazethatkush said:


> You should of just titled this thread 'Who's an old motherfucker' haha J/K
> I don't know what the hell your talking about, though, sounds like your talking a foreign language.


haha kids these days.j/k you should check into vinyl.


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## Father Jack (Dec 16, 2007)

country cowfreak said:


> Father Jack,
> I agree with you on the days of analog and vinyl. I remember getting an album and admiring the art work the went into the album cover. I have three kids and they had seen the old turntable and album and asked what they were, and I laughed and told them that is what we call old time CD's. They couldn't believe that is how we listened to music. Unfortunatley much of what I have now is MP3's and CD's , but on the up side my kids now have all of the Guitar Hero installments so they jam out to much of the classic rock that I grew up with in surround sound...a concert everyday.


Funny. One of my daughter(11 yrs old) had a freind over the other day, and her parents came in to meet me...my daughters freind couldn't wait to pull her parents into my living room to show them all my "OLD CD'S" pointing at my record collection. I had a good chuckle at that one.

Most people today...including my wife say they understand how a cd player gets the music off as disc to play...but they can't figure out how in the hell you get sound off a piece of plastic with a needle riding in the groove. LOL.

Drink!


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## Father Jack (Dec 16, 2007)

Wavels said:


> My curiosity was aroused because after I responded to the good Fathers post, I realized that I had not sat down and listened to a high end turntable and amp demo in about five years or so.
> I searched google and was surprised to see how contentious and fierce this debate still is.
> There are valid points made on both sides of this issue.
> Some of the information I came across has motivated me to go out and demo some high end analog tube amps and preamps and the aforementioned dreaded turntables.
> ...


Now there's a man with an open mind. Don't be afraid to check out the VPI tables eh.

And see if they have any Zappa records while you're at it as it seems your a fan. You can actually hear Frank's lips smaking as he talks as the Central Scrutinizer.

Drink!


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## t dub c (Dec 16, 2007)

long live vinyl. id kill for my mk5's and my mixer.


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## FilthyFletch (Dec 16, 2007)

Ahhh music systems.It all depends on what your using it for and if its home or portable. I have a n indie music lable and own a small studio.I keep old stuff and new stuff around to fit what I want the music to be finished as. Tubes do offer that fuller richer warm tone to the music. Digital has a place but isnt my favorite format as the reason it sound so clean is that whne digitally recording the process remove small bits of sound that whne recorded is filter or removed to fit the digital format and file size you setup. Vinyl is the best sounding music you can still get.I dont know how being a loui Armstrong fan you could even consider listening to it in digital format. When recording for cds we have to actually add the needle noises to get that feel.We also still press vinyl singles for Djs as it may not be top technology the true pur djs like real tuentables and not the new usb digital tables hooked to alaptop with a digitial playlist.I still even play tons of cassettes which I love. cds killed off the retail music business by making reproduction to fast and easy to do so even though Im in the music industry I do no sympathisis to the labels as they did this all on there own. But for the best sound for things like blues, jazz, hip hip, and soul music vinyl cant be beat.I have an old tube amp player in my basement the floor models that had a flip top then the record player and the am/fm radio in it. You turn it on an watch the orange glow of the tunes as they warm up. I also have my standard technique 1200's at the studio and love to listen to both.I also have used for Adat format and even use our old 1/4 inch reel to reel for certain sounds.Its all a preference to if your a purist who loves the real full warm sounds of music or a new tech audiophile who doesnt care for accuracy but more in digital clearaity


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## Father Jack (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^ I think I got through your post FilthyFletch...I just couldn't concentrate with that avatar of yours calling my eyes every two seconds.

Nice to hear that some folks in the industry still understand the difference in analogue and digital. Most people don't understand that even the highest bit rate digital recordings(DVD-A, SACD) are not true representations of the original sound. All digital is recorded like every other computer file...on off...on off....no matter how many times a second(bit rate) the recorder does it...it's not the exact same as the music being played. The computer has to guess what the sound was at every interval when the bit rate was off.

Now when mp3's are recorded...over 80% of the music is taken away to compress the file...then when it's played back...the computer(player) has to guess what all that information was that was removed before compressing. Thats why they sound so damn shitty.

There are lossless compression programs...but of course they are not the mainstream...as the buying public doesn't care much for quality. They just want the single song from an artist,...no matter how much it's compressed...and they don't care about the rest of the album....full length lp's will be gone soon, as people lose their attention span.

Drink!


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## FilthyFletch (Dec 16, 2007)

Music is a lovely lady but like real women sometimes they are made up but the true underlying original isnt what you get...


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## NewEnglandPotriot (Dec 27, 2007)

I'm back after doing my first grow of a skunkberry plant from Peak Seeds this spring. I did a grow journal back then, maybe I'll take a few pictures this time too. I'm doing a few skunk plants from them now. Anyway I started reading again to see if I can get a bigger harvest this time.

Anyway I'm into tubes too. I build tube audio stuff from kits as a hobby, and the sound is definitely more 3-dimensional with tubes--it wraps around you like you're listening to a hologram. Vinyl can increase the effect for sure, though a crappy record is no fun for anyone. I think part of the enjoyment of listening to music on a hi-end system depends on how something was recorded. I listen mostly to jazz, which is usually pretty well recorded, even stuff that's 50 years old--you can be completely fooled by a well-done mono recording and think it's stereo. It doesn't seem like most music these days is very well recorded, so what you play it back on doesn't even matter much--as long as there's plenty of thumpy bass and etched highs. When the guitars have that much distortion in the sound, what difference does it make if the stereo isn't very clean sounding anyway? I also listen to tons (about 2,000 hours' worth) of Grateful Dead bootleg CDs and tapes, but the sound is iffy on that.

For a good time, go to Youtube and search "pat martino john scofield" and pick the tune Sunny. Pat's ferocious.


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## Father Jack (Dec 28, 2007)

NewEnglandPotriot said:


> I think part of the enjoyment of listening to music on a hi-end system depends on how something was recorded. I listen mostly to jazz, which is usually pretty well recorded, even stuff that's 50 years old--you can be completely fooled by a well-done mono recording and think it's stereo. It doesn't seem like most music these days is very well recorded, so what you play it back on doesn't even matter much--as long as there's plenty of thumpy bass and etched highs.


How true. Most popular cd's are recorded with all the levels punched to the top...and they think thats the way to record.

There are some really nice sounding cd's out there..no matter what your taste is. Check out the new Mobile Fidelity discs...for one. Most stuff that is engineered by Steve Hoffman is excellent as well. He uses all old Marantz Tube gear to re-engineer old music from the master tapes.

If you can get your hands on a few of the old DCC discs...you're in for a treat. Not all are great...but some are outstanding. 

Drink!


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## ViRedd (Dec 30, 2007)

Man, I'd forgotten about this thread ... and I started it. ~lol~

You vinyl junkies are welcome at my place anytime. You too Wavels. ~lol~

Father Jack ... Steve Hoffman is a sound, sound engineer. ~lol~

For the jazz buffs ...

A lot of the 50's jazz has been reissued through Fantasy in Berkeley. Lots of stuff on the Contemporary label is just GREAT sounding and teriffic performances as well. Fantasy has been bought out by Concord records. Look for the Fantasy reissues in the better used record stores. You'll see the company's name on the back of the jacket. They reissued many of the great jazz recording that were done by various studios. Most of them got the golden treatment by the Fantasy engineers on the remastering ... and they sound GREAT!

Lots of great recordings are being remastered and reissued by other studios as well. Here's one: CompleteCatalog

By the way, a friend came by last night with a CD, digital recording, of a high school percussion orchestra that was simply amazing! It sounded like the very best of analoge with NO noise. Digital done right can be truely amazing. The problem is ... most of it is engineered like crap. 

Vi


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## chiknmunky (Jan 5, 2008)

Foobar2k (flac or 320kbs mp3) or zune (with dock)
sony amp
Stax Sr-lambdas or grado sr-80







not the best system but it gets the job done.


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## Father Jack (Jan 8, 2008)

I guess it's better than a ghetto blaster eh. Whatever makes your ears happy is what counts. 

I tend to not even have the sound on while I'm on the comp..as I find it annoying. Of course I don't have a pair of Stax hooked to my comp.

Love the Cake sticker by the way. Very under appreciated band.

Drink!


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## Hank (Jan 8, 2008)

That's a really neat desk.

Hank.


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## chiknmunky (Jan 8, 2008)

thanks .


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## R1c3K1LL3R (Jan 8, 2008)

No matter how technologically advanced stereos get,NOTHING sounds better then a old set of paper cone speakers....I actually look for old fishers and stuff when I am lookin for stereo equipment.


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## natmoon (Jan 8, 2008)

R1c3K1LL3R said:


> No matter how technologically advanced stereos get,NOTHING sounds better then a old set of paper cone speakers....I actually look for old fishers and stuff when I am lookin for stereo equipment.


Thats technically not true but i understand what you mean.
Your a purist,valve amps and paper coned wooden framed speakers,lovely warm sound,nothing like todays systems.
You should look into units like this to mix with your old speakers when you find them unless you can afford a genuine working real valve amp these are cool.
Vox Tonelab


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## R1c3K1LL3R (Jan 8, 2008)

I've kind of bi-amped my stereo,so I've got it running through an old Sony amp,which is awesome sound,granted it's not 5.1,but I like a deep resonance with my music (plus I like heavy bass),and I just can't get it with newer speakers.The only time I really go with new speakers is for my car,which is funny because the speakers in my room are about as old as my car is (74 Chevelle).


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## natmoon (Jan 8, 2008)

R1c3K1LL3R said:


> I've kind of bi-amped my stereo,so I've got it running through an old Sony amp,which is awesome sound,granted it's not 5.1,but I like a deep resonance with my music (plus I like heavy bass),and I just can't get it with newer speakers.The only time I really go with new speakers is for my car,which is funny because the speakers in my room are about as old as my car is (74 Chevelle).


If you love the warmth and bass of old systems you would love a switchable valve amp.
I know where your coming from and all though i crave new technology i also miss the old warmths.
This is something that they are now addressing with the new releases of valve amp technology.
I dont know if they will ever go back to the old speaker designs though mainly because there greatest flaw was that they rip easily


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## R1c3K1LL3R (Jan 8, 2008)

Yah,I don't mind the L5 or L7 series for cars (kicker and auidobahn is all I use for my cars),and actually have a 15" L5 sitting in my room,basically barely being used seeing as it is 1500 watts (can't remember the RMS) and it's being powered by a 400 watt amp.


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## natmoon (Jan 8, 2008)

R1c3K1LL3R said:


> Yah,I don't mind the L5 or L7 series for cars (kicker and auidobahn is all I use for my cars),and actually have a 15" L5 sitting in my room,basically barely being used seeing as it is 1500 watts (can't remember the RMS) and it's being powered by a 400 watt amp.


I built my own subwoofer with a fairly cheap 15" cone but i liked the warm bass it gives of.
Its a car sub but i have it in my bedroom.
I have a 14 year old aiwa stereo and an old jvc 5 disc cd player that i rescued from someones dustbin about 5 years ago


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## natmoon (Jan 8, 2008)

Heres the sub i built myself and a couple of my other speakers and my old seperates


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## R1c3K1LL3R (Jan 8, 2008)

Nicew...bet those fuckers pound good eh?lol


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## DND (Jan 9, 2008)

iblazethatkush said:


> You should of just titled this thread 'Who's an old motherfucker' haha J/K
> I don't know what the hell your talking about, though, sounds like your talking a foreign language.


My laugh of the day  I cracked up when I read this blaze...ty for that!


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## tm21thc (Jan 9, 2008)

A macbook pro, Tc Electronic Konnekt 8, Krk V4 satellites and Krk rokit 10s sub....


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## YungMune (Jan 9, 2008)

my car audio right now is a weak jl w3 with a generic 1000watt amp, i use to run a kicker s12l7 with a memphis mojo 1000 mono block. but all that is gone now


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## Father Jack (Jan 9, 2008)

R1c3K1LL3R said:


> No matter how technologically advanced stereos get,NOTHING sounds better then a old set of paper cone speakers....I actually look for old fishers and stuff when I am lookin for stereo equipment.


Stick to pre-1970 for Fisher. Like alot of great audio companies back then..they got bought out by a Jap company...and everything went to shit. The old Fisher tube gear is still well regarded in the industry. Speakers...not so much.

Drink!


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## jesus3 (Jan 9, 2008)

ViRedd said:


> I'm into vacuum tubes and vinyl. My belief is, digital ended what transistors started; the complete ruination of reproduced music in the home. Agree or disagree?
> 
> Vi
> 
> PS: Digital sucks.


the best sound ever.


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## R1c3K1LL3R (Jan 9, 2008)

Yeah I don't go for any fisher newer then about 72,from what I told everything past then is mostly shit.I do wanna build a box with a couple of the new subs from MTX.I heard that they are proven to play to absolute max power before blowing.Not so cheap,but I want reliability.I guess I could go with some Klips from Germany.


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## Father Jack (Jan 10, 2008)

R1c3K1LL3R said:


> Yeah I don't go for any fisher newer then about 72,from what I told everything past then is mostly shit.I do wanna build a box with a couple of the new subs from MTX.I heard that they are proven to play to absolute max power before blowing.Not so cheap,but I want reliability.I guess I could go with some Klips from Germany.


Loud isn't the main criteria when it comes to any speaker...even a sub. At least not to me. When building your own..there are alot of things to consider regarding cabinet size, resonance(sp?), rolloff, amp matching etc etc. A sub should hit the lowest of low notes with ease...not a rumble...which is what I detect when I hear alot of subs. I use 8" subs....and they kick the ass of most large beefy 12" or bigger. Not that a large one can't be good...but alot are really just noise. Go to a good local store and listen to some Higher end velodynes or something similar....then shoot for that.

Rule of thumb I have for buying or testing speakers. find the best sounding speakers to your ears that you can find.....regardless of price...then find something that sounds as close to that as possible in your price range. You won't know whats out there for a target sound if you don't audition the good ones.

Drink!


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## R1c3K1LL3R (Jan 10, 2008)

Father Jack said:


> Loud isn't the main criteria when it comes to any speaker...even a sub. At least not to me. When building your own..there are alot of things to consider regarding cabinet size, resonance(sp?), rolloff, amp matching etc etc. A sub should hit the lowest of low notes with ease...not a rumble...which is what I detect when I hear alot of subs. I use 8" subs....and they kick the ass of most large beefy 12" or bigger. Not that a large one can't be good...but alot are really just noise. Go to a good local store and listen to some Higher end velodynes or something similar....then shoot for that.
> 
> Rule of thumb I have for buying or testing speakers. find the best sounding speakers to your ears that you can find.....regardless of price...then find something that sounds as close to that as possible in your price range. You won't know whats out there for a target sound if you don't audition the good ones.
> 
> Drink!


Yah I tend to do that,hence why I stick with my brands.I know when a sub gets to big for it's size it tends to have to basically "catch up" with the sounds waves it's pushing....I just like big boom sometimes....Although I do like to have good sounds as well.


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## Mad Hatter (Jan 31, 2008)

That OG crap can suck it, All digi All the way.


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## FilthyFletch (Jan 31, 2008)

Guess ya not into the fullest best sound for music then MAd Hatter? Some people like quality music over loud music and the new digital you loose alot of the true music during compression


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## Hanky (Jan 31, 2008)

I like clear music when I'm just driving along or posting on RIU but if I'm out smokin or doing something with my friends loud music just makes it that much funner...
I've got a 7.1 system in my room.. I think my subs around 7 inches.. Nothing too fancy. You can feel it hit downstairs but it's nto so loud that i'm pissin off the neighbors.
My tweeters are shit and I usually don't have my mids on.


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## FilthyFletch (Jan 31, 2008)

speakers make part of the difference but the actual source is where the real difference is.Old tube type setups are the best followed closly by a high end turntable


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## Mad Hatter (Feb 1, 2008)

I guess by "full music" you mean pop pop crack ruffle crack pop, yea.. ill pass. My old man had that tube crap with a high end turn table, it was even belt driven with an isolated motor, ill still pass. Ill keep my 5k songs on my laptop the size of 5 LP's stacked and ill keep my nice little digi mp3 player.. In the end your talking about differences most people dont/cant hear, well they hear the pops. I bet, I would bet anything that the majority of people would not be able to tell the difference between digi and tube/lp if they were behind curtains... If the lp didnt pop and rattle always a dead give away. In the end i think ill keep my 2k songs on my iPhone. But hey, if everyone didnt like somethin different then old/better/worse/new w/e cultures would be lost. Different strokes for different folks. Cheers


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## panhead (Feb 3, 2008)

This a subject of great interest to me,ive spent decades building my systems & collecting vintage hifi gear.

I currently have 4 systems set up in my home,2 solid state systems,1 all tube system & 1 tube/solid state hybrid system,here's a few pics of some of my audio gear.

Dedicated music room system.



















Living room system.













One of my favorite vintage tube amplifiers.


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## natmoon (Feb 3, 2008)

Man that looks really good panhead.
Can i come live with you lol


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## kittysecrets4u (Feb 3, 2008)

Panhand - DAMN!!! AWESOME!!!!! Thanks for sharing.


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## panhead (Feb 4, 2008)

Mad Hatter said:


> I guess by "full music" you mean pop pop crack ruffle crack pop, yea.. ill pass. My old man had that tube crap with a high end turn table, it was even belt driven with an isolated motor, ill still pass. Ill keep my 5k songs on my laptop the size of 5 LP's stacked and ill keep my nice little digi mp3 player.. In the end your talking about differences most people dont/cant hear, well they hear the pops. I bet, I would bet anything that the majority of people would not be able to tell the difference between digi and tube/lp if they were behind curtains... If the lp didnt pop and rattle always a dead give away. In the end i think ill keep my 2k songs on my iPhone. But hey, if everyone didnt like somethin different then old/better/worse/new w/e cultures would be lost. Different strokes for different folks. Cheers


There is a little more to why people still prefer to listen to vinyl (records) over cd's & to use Tube amplifiers, it has to do with compression,dynamic range,odd order distortions,clipping & the quality of the D,A,C (Digitial to Analog Converter) that the cd player uses to convert its signal "which is bianary code that cant be heard" into a signal that can be heard, which is analog.

In the beginning of cd the Digital to Analog conversion process was crude,much information was lost in the conversion process resulting in poor sound,recording engineers still used time proven recording methods to produce quality recordings that were accurate reproductions of the music, but they still sounded bad because of the shoddy conversion rates,over time & with tech advances the Digital to Analog converters inside cd players came of age to where they are now,pretty much all DAC converters are able to accurately restructure the signal into analog,these advances in technology should have made cd a clearly beetter medium & it did briefly.

Enter the new age recording methods.

Loud is where it's at nowdays,the (behind curtians test) you spoke above is called a DBT (double blind test) & is widely used in perceptual research that goes into designing audio equipment,DBT's have been around since the early days of hifi & were pioneered by Floyd Toole & Sidney Harmon,one of the things they found durring these test's is that if people can see the stereo gear they will automatically pick by brand recognition or pick the one that costs the most as sounding better,take away the visual aspect of the comparison & they also found out that every single time test subjects will pick the louder recording as sounding better,which is rarely the case.

Recording engineers & record company big wigs picked up on this,what they did was to narrow the dynamic range of the recording & pump up the recording level's ,making every last recording as loud as possible,this type of recording is widely used & highly distorted,Vinyl as well as RTR (reel to reel) could not work as a medium being recorder in such a way so it held true to quality recording methods, while the methods for recording cd's slides farther down hill as time goes on greatly affecting the overall sound,remember louder is better & always will be to consumers,how else dose Bose pass off the junk they sell as hi-fidelity equipment & command top dollar for it.

Tube gear vs solid state (transistor) gear,there is also more to this than just a bunch of geezers living in the past,to understand why some prefer tubes over solid state you must first understand the differences in the clases of amplification.

Class A amplifiers are the best sounding at all listening levels,they also hold the lowest distortion figures of all the different classes but they have serious 
drawbacks which are massive power consumption,low wattage & EXTREME HEAT & massive build costs resulting in amplifiers that weigh in excess of 100lbs & cost $5,000 & up.

Class B amplifiers,very cost efficient & are near perfect in the way they operate except one thing,all class b amplifiers sound like complete shit due to massive amounts of distortion,so bad they are never used in ANY audio application.

To get past these drawbacks of both amp classes a new class of amplifier was invented which is Class A/B,what a class a/b amp does is to run in pure class A mode in the lower range,usually between 5 to 10 percent of full power,then after a percentage the amplifier drifts more twords class b operation,remember the extremely low distortion of the Pure Class A amplifier,the farther the amp drifts twords Class B operation to meet the power demand caused by increased volume the more it drifts away from class a,also the farther the amp/receiver drifts from class a the more odd order distortion is added to the signal,this type of distortion is very unpleseant & causes "listener fatigue" very quickly.

Have you ever felt tired after listening to loud music?? if so it was listener fatigue.

With this information & knowing the fact that ALL tube amplifiers are 100% Class A its aparent why some still use tube gear over solid state gear.

I could write a novel on this subject but im sure im boring the hell outta everybody,i just thought a little information as to why some of us still prefer to spin records on tube systems was in order,it is about sound quality.


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## starchland (Feb 4, 2008)

I was recently in Cali...and the amount of record stores down there got me hooked on buying records. amazing. I would walk out of a record store with 20 or so records and cost be a little more than buying one CD. Records are great cause your in it for the long haul. What other music format has been around for 100 years?


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## Father Jack (Feb 4, 2008)

panhead said:


> There is a little more to why people still prefer to listen to vinyl (records) over cd's & to use Tube amplifiers, it has to do with compression,dynamic range,odd order distortions,clipping & the quality of the D,A,C (Digitial to Analog Converter) that the cd player uses to convert its signal "which is bianary code that cant be heard" into a signal that can be heard, which is analog.
> 
> In the beginning of cd the Digital to Analog conversion process was crude,much information was lost in the conversion process resulting in poor sound,recording engineers still used time proven recording methods to produce quality recordings that were accurate reproductions of the music, but they still sounded bad because of the shoddy conversion rates,over time & with tech advances the Digital to Analog converters inside cd players came of age to where they are now,pretty much all DAC converters are able to accurately restructure the signal into analog,these advances in technology should have made cd a clearly beetter medium & it did briefly.
> 
> ...



Great post. I couldn't of said it better myself. 

I was in retail for awhile selling bose as our main line. That stuff is pure shit to say the least. When we had to attend seminars for bose..."_to learn how to sell their equipment properly_"...some retailers attending the seminars would get up and walk out. The shit they tried to get us to do to fool the consumer was disgusting. 

The moto in the biz is: No highs...no lows...it must be bose.

Also...better sound through marketing.

Drink!


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## panhead (Feb 5, 2008)

Father Jack said:


> Great post. I couldn't of said it better myself.
> 
> I was in retail for awhile selling bose as our main line. That stuff is pure shit to say the least. When we had to attend seminars for bose..."_to learn how to sell their equipment properly_"...some retailers attending the seminars would get up and walk out. The shit they tried to get us to do to fool the consumer was disgusting.
> 
> ...


Thank you.

Ya gotta give DR Bose credit though,through his saturation advertising methods he has convinced an entire generation that a plastic cube with a 2# tweeter inside it is hi fidility,he has also convinced the same generation that a 5# midrange driver in a 5th order bandbass configuration(worst bass response of all configurations) is a subwoofer,then charges above premium prices for the junk.

It's a shame too because Bose did make some very good hifi gear for a short time,if i remember right around the late 1970's,they had the 1801 power amp that was outstanding & a matching preamp but i cant remember the model #.


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## chiknmunky (Feb 5, 2008)

panhead said:


> This a subject of great interest to me,ive spent decades building my systems & collecting vintage hifi gear.
> 
> I currently have 4 systems set up in my home,2 solid state systems,1 all tube system & 1 tube/solid state hybrid system,here's a few pics of some of my audio gear.
> 
> ...



:jawdrop: Drool... 

This thread makes me sad now. I sold my stax a few weeks ago to finance a new bass. Oh well the grado's are still doing fine.


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## kittysecrets4u (Feb 17, 2008)

I don't have an audio system - I listen to everything on my computer with headphones..... I know; I'm missing out!!


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## Zekedogg (Feb 17, 2008)

kittysecrets4u said:


> I don't have an audio system - I listen to everything on my computer with headphones..... I know; I'm missing out!!


You make up for it in other areas kitty, you aren't missing out on anything


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## Chiceh (Feb 17, 2008)

Does my computer plugged into my old compact stereo count? Cause that is what my system consists of, lol. Nothing fancy here, lol.


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## mrCRC420 (Feb 17, 2008)

DAAAMN i'm jealous of panheads humble abode, c'mon man.. that's fuckin awesome.

moving to what my collegite ass has well I was lucky enuf to fine two 2x1 speakers and a vintage pioneer amp, cranks like what. i had to replace two of the surrounds but they sound great now. I added two overhead boston computer speakers and some smaller color changing ipod speakers (for those baked times  ) so surround sound in my room wooo!


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## panhead (Feb 17, 2008)

mrCRC420 said:


> DAAAMN i'm jealous of panheads humble abode, c'mon man.. that's fuckin awesome.


Thank you .


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## NewEnglandPotriot (Feb 19, 2008)

panhead said:


> With this information & knowing the fact that ALL tube amplifiers are 100% Class A its aparent why some still use tube gear over solid state gear.


 
I agree with 99% of what you said, except this point. Many tube amps over 40-50W are Class AB. My Assemblage amp (Sonic Frontiers kit) is AB Ultralinear, as are some Audio Research, Conrad-Johnson, and others. My system's a few notches lower than yours (Cary, B&W, Rega Planet 2k, Clearaudio turntable) but we share the same enjoyment. The next thing I build will be an SET amp just to see what those are like. What kind of speakers are those? Those aren't Pipe Dreams are they?


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## Zekedogg (Feb 19, 2008)

NewEnglandPotriot said:


> I agree with 99% of what you said, except this point. Many tube amps over 40-50W are Class AB. My Assemblage amp (Sonic Frontiers kit) is AB Ultralinear, as are some Audio Research, Conrad-Johnson, and others. My system's a few notches lower than yours (Cary, B&W, Rega Planet 2k, Clearaudio turntable) but we share the same enjoyment. The next thing I build will be an SET amp just to see what those are like. What kind of speakers are those? Those aren't Pipe Dreams are they?


 

How bout them Patriots!!!!!


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAH


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## NewEnglandPotriot (Feb 19, 2008)

Here are a couple of pics of my rig, underwhelming after PanHead's.


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## doinaight69 (Feb 20, 2008)

I have a alpine head unit, a hifonics 3600 watt rms amp, and two Fi BTl 18s


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## DWR (Feb 20, 2008)

36 Watt - 5.1 - Subwoofer 16 Watt  


Believe me, I have totally never had a real audio system ^^ 

i like'd buying weed more  

ohwell ^^


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## panhead (Feb 20, 2008)

NewEnglandPotriot said:


> Here are a couple of pics of my rig, underwhelming after PanHead's.
> 
> View attachment 71805
> 
> View attachment 71806


Sweet,nice to see another audiophile.

How do you like the Cary gear ?


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## NewEnglandPotriot (Feb 23, 2008)

panhead said:


> Sweet,nice to see another audiophile.
> 
> How do you like the Cary gear ?


 
It's like listening to 3-dimensional waves of Grade A Light Amber maple syrup. I've got a Cary preamp that is the best I've had in my system. I had an Audio Research LS-7, which was really open and airy sounding, but a little dry and thin on the bass and 2-dimensional. A Conrad-Johnson PV10 was much warmer and had deeper bass and had more of the 3-D thing going, but the bass was loose and the thing was noisy. This older Cary I've got is the sound, though. It's got very deep bass that's still tight, open and extended highs, and a midrange that's very liquid and has that swirling psychedelic thing that tubes have perfectly.

The Cary phono preamp is the only tube phono pre I've used so I can't honestly say what it sounds like compared to anything else.

The power amp is a straightforward EL34 design that I upgraded with some oil-filled capacitors and foo-foo carbon resistors. It's pretty neutral soundwise, maybe just a touch on the warm side. Just for kicks I think my next project will be to build a single-ended triode amp with 300Bs or something just to see what that's like.


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## panhead (Feb 23, 2008)

NewEnglandPotriot said:


> It's like listening to 3-dimensional waves of Grade A Light Amber maple syrup. I've got a Cary preamp that is the best I've had in my system. I had an Audio Research LS-7, which was really open and airy sounding, but a little dry and thin on the bass and 2-dimensional.


Agreed on the AR gear,ive been through a bunch of AR gear before i dove head first into Mcintosh gear,the thing that i disliked the most with AR was their lack of a house sound,seemed like every time i bought a different peice of AR gear it had different sonic traingts,i dont care for that.

Ive got a couple of peices of cary gear in storage & im running 2 CAD 5500's right now in secondary systems.

Im sure you know how wierd this is talking high end audio on this site,i'd bet we've talked on Audiogon,Audio Aslym or Audiokarma before 

Enjoy your system,it looks fantastic.


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## ViRedd (Feb 23, 2008)

Hey, Panhead ...

Beautiful Mac gear, Bro. I have a Mac 1700 receiver at work in my office. Only the tuner section is tube with the rest being solid state ... but even so, Mac built some good solid state stuff back in the day too. My associates at work all have I-pods ... but they come into my office to listen to music. ~lol~ 

At home, I have Audio Research's Reference gear. Awesome sound.

Audio Research. America's premier manufacturer of precision hi-fi equipment, committed to High Definition® in sound, service, and product support.

The difference between good audio and great audio is this: With "good" audio, your friends say:"Man, your system sounds good!" With "great" audio, your friends say: Man THOSE GUYS sound good! ~lol~

For those in the room who've never heard a truely high-end audio system before ... We're into recreating the actual event. Some great audio systems bring the performers into your living room. Other great audio systems transport you into the recording environment. All of this is in three dimentional relief. The timbers of the instruments are correct. You can hear the wood of the cello, the ivory of the piano and sense the personalities of vocalists. If you're listening to choral music, each voice is discernable from the other voices. There is no confusion to the sound at all, just like there is no confusion to the sound when listening to live music. The emotional impact of the music is like listening live. The realism, at times, can suspend disbelief. Tubes and vinyl are best at doing that.

Beware ... the high-end stereo hobby is like having a heroin habit ... only more expensive. 

Vi


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## panhead (Feb 23, 2008)

ViRedd said:


> Hey, Panhead ...
> 
> Beautiful Mac gear, Bro. I have a Mac 1700 receiver at work in my office. Only the tuner section is tube with the rest being solid state ... but even so, Mac built some good solid state stuff back in the day too. My associates at work all have I-pods ... but they come into my office to listen to music. ~lol~
> 
> ...


Amen brother,i fell off the deep end collecting vintage Mac gear within the last 10 years,i have your receiver as well as a shit load of other vintage Mac in storage,im thinking about buying the new turntable that Mcintosh just released this year but im still undecided.


As far as high end being heroin its true,ive bet ive got 200K tied up in my systems & im still not done,ill never be 100% done.

Theres nothin like kickin back with the lights down low,burning a fat one & listening to some great tunes on a properly set up high end rig,even my mother thought my systems were awesome until my wife told her how much i spent,then she freaked.


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## ViRedd (Feb 24, 2008)

Yeah, I saw the review of that new Mac turntable. Don't remember if it was in TAS or Stereophile. Again ... beautiful. If I were into collecting Mac gear like you are ... I'd HAVE to go for the turntable. ~lol~

This morning I was listening to Brubeck's "Jazz in the USA" album. Its mono, but the sound and performance is really great. Paul Desmond was right there in the room. Nothing like the aroma of home roasted Sumatra coffee and Desmond's sax wafting through the air! 

Here ... If you don't know about this site, I'd like to turn you on to it: AudiogoN high end audio auctions, classifieds, hifi chat

Its an auction site for high end audio equipment, both used and new. Honesty is strictly enforced as is accurate descriptions of what's for sale. Enjoy ... 

Vi


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## panhead (Feb 25, 2008)

ViRedd said:


> Here ... If you don't know about this site, I'd like to turn you on to it: AudiogoN high end audio auctions, classifieds, hifi chat
> 
> Its an auction site for high end audio equipment, both used and new. Honesty is strictly enforced as is accurate descriptions of what's for sale. Enjoy ...
> 
> Vi


Good call on Audiogon,ive been buying & selling there for 5 years,i quit taking part in their forums though after they switched to 100% moderation of every post.


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## Mr Wacky Tobacky (May 3, 2008)

I'm a dj and love playing with vinyl.. non of you would like the type of music I play but.. I also have moved on with the times and still love to play with vinyl. If I want to listen to a cd I would stick it into my hi-fi or car system and listen to it but when I'm mixing I much more prefer mixing with vinyl. To me it's the art part that comes into play with vinyl and mixing with cd does not have the same effect on me. 

Also buying a record to me is more interesting and collect-able satisfying than what cd's are. To me you buy a cd you stick it in and listen but when you buy a record you put it on you feel and listen.. it just comes with the whole process and the vibe is different and therefore I hope it never goes away. 

I didn't grow up in the old times but there has definitely some good that came out of the old times and that to me is vinyl. It's just not the same feel when you put on a mp3 or cd like you have with vinyl.. your mates would much more be interested in you showing them your record collection than you showing them your cd or mp3 collection it's just not the same coz everyone buys cd's, etc... it's part the modern day and people are getting too use to it but they definitely not used to vinyl anymore and therefore are always in owe when you play them something on vinyl.

_*I wana puff puff some of that Dutch stuff! *_Hard.fm - The #1 Hardstyle Radio / Community on the web! - Home
www.Hardstyle.co.za :: Index


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## armand (May 21, 2008)

i caught that vinyl/tube bug awhile back and man it can get expensive, swapping tubes, cartridges, cables, individual components.heavy vinyl,45rpm. so i downloaded all my music to my laptop and a couple of hard drives and sold all my stuff. the plan was to buy a headphone preamp and listen to my music on my senn hd600(moved into a small apt.). anyway i broke down and bought another system and this WILL be the last one. attached is my system.


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## regrets (May 21, 2008)

well I got all a yas. I got a laptop which came with speakers already inside of it and I have a tape deck in my car. Bet I know what you fellas will be dreamin about for the next few nights.


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## SenorSanteria (May 21, 2008)

Heres my setup:

Head unit is a 7.5" flip up dvd/mp3/cd player
Speakers are 6x9" Eclipse 3 ways up front, 5.5" Pioneer 2 ways in the back.
Speakers powered by a rockford fosgate 450w 4 channel amp
12" Kicker Solobaric L7 subwoofer, powered by a 1000w 2 channel Rockford amp.

I love my system.


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## panhead (Oct 21, 2014)

I was looking thru some old threads & ran across this old thread about peoples stereo/hifi systems & figured i'd give it a shot of adrenalin & bring it back to life .

C'mon peoples lets see some pics of members audio systems .

Ive added another complete Mid level hifi system ( Emotiva ) and added another dozen or so pieces to my vintage tube gear collection since this thread went flat , the coolest piece ive acquired is a 1 of a kind pair of Mcintosh XR-290 Line Array speaker system , hand built by legendary Mcintosh hifi engineer Roger Russell for use in his home system , in my personal opinion the 290's hold up against Mc's current TOTL XRT2K line arrays & i saved $90,000 in the process from picking Rogers 290's vs Mc's new $120.000 xrt2k statement speaker system .

Any new audiophiles join RIU & if so lets see your rigs !


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## mrCRC420 (Oct 21, 2014)

I want to give a shoutout to AirFoil by Rogue Amoeba - You can simultaneously stream music from your computer to any iOS device or any (I believe) Android device. So you use your phones/computers/tablets as a wi-fi receiver. Or from your iOS/Device to your computer, to other wi-fi devices. It gives you surround sound throughout the house and has a nice digital EQ to tweak all the sound. I think it's like $20, and well worth it. Like "Apple AirPlay" but AirFoil goes where that cannot. Check it out if you've been running WAY too many wires around the house! GL


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## panhead (Oct 23, 2014)

NewEnglandPotriot said:


> The next thing I build will be an SET amp just to see what those are like.What kind of speakers are those? Those aren't Pipe Dreams are they?


Late ass reply but to answer the question the speakers pictured are not Pipe Dreams they are Mcintosh XRT-22's , they operate on the same principal as Pipe's with both brands being line array systems but the Mcintosh line array far out performs Pipedreams in bass response , i auditioned a pair of Pipedream Hemispheres for a week in my main system & was really dissapointed in their bass response , i found they needed external subwoofers to equal the 10HZ bass response the Mcintosh line arrays have , the pipes sounded great but IMO a $50,000 speaker system shouldnt need a subwoofer , i own 2 pair of the Mcintosh XRT-22 line arrays & a pair of Mcintosh's last top of the line XR290 line arrays , along with a few other more tube friendly systems .

I got off the hi end audio band wagon for several yrs so i could focus all cash twords real estate but ive got back into the hobby & collecting gear within the last yr or so .

There's gotta be some more people out there who still have real stereos & hifi's , i hate to think computer speakers & i-pods have replaced stereo systems in the USA .


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## Milovan (Oct 23, 2014)

What about all the album covers?
A lot of great stuff going on there that you
don't see any more with the new stuff.

With vinyl you get warmth, depth and mids.
Digital etc...you get none of this.









.


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## skunkd0c (Oct 23, 2014)

ViRedd said:


> I'm into vacuum tubes and vinyl. My belief is, digital ended what transistors started; the complete ruination of reproduced music in the home. Agree or disagree?
> 
> Vi
> 
> PS: Digital sucks.


something.flac


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## panhead (Oct 23, 2014)

Milovan said:


> What about all the album covers?
> A lot of great stuff going on there that you
> don't see any more with the new stuff.
> 
> ...


You nailed it brother,the whole ritual of listening to music is different,with an album you clean the record while the amp is warming up,then check platter speed,put the album on & while listening you get to enjoy some fantastic artwork,i really love double & tripple fold out album covers where ya get all the art & alot of times concert photos & all the lyrics to the songs.

It seems strange to me that in the US the bulk of listeners have opted to listen with small compact devices,or get music thats highly compressed via i-phone type devices,meanwhile in the electronic crazed Tokyo Japan mid level to hi end stereo systems are in about 20% of music listeners homes.

Dr Bose set the stage with 20 yrs of infomercials telling Americans great stereo reproduction can be done with a 4 inch plastic speaker.

I like cd's alot & they are my main form of listening now since the overall quality of DAC's within electronics has got much better,i also like the convienence of small portable listening devices


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## panhead (Oct 30, 2014)

Mr Wacky Tobacky said:


> I'm a dj and love playing with vinyl.. non of you would like the type of music I play but.. I also have moved on with the times and still love to play with vinyl. If I want to listen to a cd I would stick it into my hi-fi or car system and listen to it but when I'm mixing I much more prefer mixing with vinyl. To me it's the art part that comes into play with vinyl and mixing with cd does not have the same effect on me.
> 
> Also buying a record to me is more interesting and collect-able satisfying than what cd's are. To me you buy a cd you stick it in and listen but when you buy a record you put it on you feel and listen.. it just comes with the whole process and the vibe is different and therefore I hope it never goes away.
> 
> ...


Its an old thread but its mine & i like it !

I was rereading the posts when this post struck me & i realized i never responded to the most important post in this thread.

Im over 60 yrs old so when i say you nailed it kid take no offense,im a geezer so everybody is a kid.

Your post absolutely nailed the emotional connection & attachment most audiophiles have with their systems,granted there are some guys who try & outspend the rest of us & end up with $500,000 rigs that sound like crap,loud as hell but shit sound.

For most of us the expensive systems are a means to an end where the listening experience is one part meditation,one part music appreaciation & one part enjoying the music,your words explaining the connection to your vinyl collection were out fukin standing,it feels so different with spinning records compared to modern file storage listening,so much of the fine detail of music is lost durring the A to D recording process that most music looses its depth,only the best quality cd's retain the same depth & even then lack the same dynamics assoaciated with vinyl.

As im sure you know the snap crakle pop that most complain about with vinyl is due to poor condition of the record,dirty record,worn stylus or cartridge,even a mismatched cart & needle but mainly poor record quality is the culprit.

Frank Zappa has a quote i like to use when explaining why proper vinyl systems are superior sounding & that quote is "Its like putting the eyebrows on a portrait ",i used his quote out of his original context but it fits.

Im not a vinyl snob & actually do most of my listening on cd but when i listen to very complex types of music such as some of Miles Davis works like his masterpiece Bitches Brew or Frank Zappa when he conducts the LSO London Symphony Orchestra i want to hear all the little details & switch on the tube gear & get the turn table put in time & listen that way.

I just heard another audiophile explain the difference between how much more dynamic the sound of vinyl is over other recording methods,his explaination was better than mine & more people can relate to his explaination,he uses headphones ( cans ) alot & allthough his cans are top of the line & cost as much as a car they still lack the depth & bass response of a true full range speaker,so its like comparing cheap headphones to a conventional speaker.

And dont be so sure none of us would like your tastes in music,my main interests are with jazz & fusion jazz but i also listen to funk,disco,classic rock,classical music,orchestral pieces,heavy metal,punk,electronica,spoken word,death metal,easy listening,female vocalists ect,i can go from listening to Frank Zappas classical music straight into Marilyn Manson or pantera,i like all types of music.

Theres no such thing as bad music as long as it sparks an emotional response in a single person,except country music,J/k.


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## WHATFG (Oct 30, 2014)

I love my records. I used to play in the bars...I have 12 channel mixing board that pushes 600 watts a side and I used to just love to push the tunes through it....I wish I had room for it now....


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## moving_shadow (Oct 31, 2014)

this is my audio setup

it was strictly analogue for 15 plus years but two months ago decided to go digital, something I should have actually done long ago since for the past two months my skills have improved significantly especially with beat juggling/looping/backspinning

the power of digital with the feel analogue, the best of both worlds. I can now store my vinyl and leave new copies sealed (I'm hipster that way) and just look at them for hours (yes I do that).


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## WHATFG (Oct 31, 2014)

What are those speakers?



moving_shadow said:


> this is my audio setup
> 
> it was strictly analogue for 15 plus years but two months ago decided to go digital, something I should have actually done long ago since for the past two months my skills have improved significantly especially with beat juggling/looping/backspinning
> 
> the power of digital with the feel analogue, the best of both worlds. I can now store my vinyl and leave new copies sealed (I'm hipster that way) and just look at them for hours (yes I do that).


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## moving_shadow (Oct 31, 2014)

those are KRK VTX 6s, I'm also running a KRK 10s subwoofer, but not pictured for obvious reasons


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