# Why Do People Believe Weird Things... Confirmation Bias



## Heisenberg (Dec 25, 2010)

In my quest to understand why some false beliefs persist, I have found that it's easiest to start with the simple things. The same mistakes of logic and perception that cause silly beliefs like superstitions are also responsible for the big false beliefs of this world..like ghosts, alien abductions and yes, god. This post covers only two of those mistakes.

The first thing that comes into play in many superstitions is a mistake of logic called, post hoc ergo proctor hoc, which means, after this therefore because of this.

You walk under a ladder and then a paint bucket falls on your head. A black cat crosses your path and then your horse breaks it's leg. Someone gives you the evil eye and then you get the flu. All of these things assume a relationship that isn't really there. Because evolution has hardwired the human brain to see and recognize patterns, we sometimes see patterns where none exist. 

The second thing that happens here is called confirmation bias. That is the tendency humans have to forget the events which do not reinforce their beliefs. In other words, you remember the hits and forget the misses. This comes into play a lot when psychics do a cold reading. You go away thinking they knew a lot about you because you don't remember all the stuff they got wrong.

A good example of confirmation bias is the belief that the rate of crime and emergencies are always higher during a full moon. Ask a cop who works the night shift and they will probably confirm that yea, a full moon seems to bring out the crazies. And if this cop is out there every night year after year, wouldn't he be the one to know? 

A nurse looks around the emergency room and notes that they are much busier than normal, and the injuries coming in seem more severe than most nights. She turns to a doctor and asks him to look out the window and see if the moon is full. He looks and remarks that it's only half full. The nurse goes back to work and doesn't think anymore about it. If the doctor would have confirmed that the moon was full, it would have made an impression and she would remember for a long time that crazy night in the ER when the moon was full. We forget the misses and remember the hits. Confirmation bias.

So keep this in mind when you are trying to figure out the world. Humans are prone to mistakes, but making ourselves aware of those mistakes helps us avoid them.


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## sleeperls93 (Dec 26, 2010)

I believe, and have faith in GOD


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## Nice Ol Bud (Dec 26, 2010)

sleeperls93 said:


> I believe, and have faith in GOD


We might have a creator.
But why worship a "God" if he done nothing for you?


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## Nice Ol Bud (Dec 26, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> In my quest to understand why some false beliefs persist, I have found that it's easiest to start with the simple things. The same mistakes of logic and perception that cause silly beliefs like superstitions are also responsible for the big false beliefs of this world..like ghosts, alien abductions and yes, god.
> 
> The first thing that comes into play in many superstitions is a mistake of logic called, post hoc ergo proctor hoc, which means, after this therefore because of this.
> 
> ...


& Very good thread bro.
Hopefully this will open peoples eyes.
I know exactly what you mean.
I made those type of mistakes before.


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## tardis (Dec 26, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> In my quest to understand why some false beliefs persist, I have found that it's easiest to start with the simple things. The same mistakes of logic and perception that cause silly beliefs like superstitions are also responsible for the big false beliefs of this world..like ghosts, alien abductions and yes, god.
> 
> The first thing that comes into play in many superstitions is a mistake of logic called, post hoc ergo proctor hoc, which means, after this therefore because of this.
> 
> ...


You nailed it, the human brain is hardwired for certain patterns. My little theory believes that talking about a God or Gods gave power to an individal, and those individuals who were more likely to believe it stayed in groups and thus survived more often to pass on genes. and also ever notice that music, religion, and drug use always seem to be connected in some way (look at church and communion with wine), I think individuals more likely to partake in music, do drugs, and believe in God were the trifecta who survived because they were likely to benefit from LARGER groups of humans which increased their survival odds and thus they are our ancestors and so we are born hardwired that odd patern beliefs like gods make sense to us.

Remember we aren't outside looking in, we are inside looking outside to look inside. Does that make sense or come across as some sorta word salad, I just read that I am Gods guys post and I think it broke my brain since i've been smoking this querkle to digest my xmas dinner.


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## tardis (Dec 26, 2010)

Nice Ol Bud said:


> We might have a creator.
> But why worship a "God" if he done nothing for you?


Me personally, I believe that our creator is the singularity we all were befroe the bing bang. in otherwords everything in this universe is the creator split into all of these separate things.... I also know that no matter what i believe, just like everyone else i'm wrong, but we humans are hardwired to beleive this stuff so I better get a belief that fits in into science best!


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## sleeperls93 (Dec 26, 2010)

Nice Ol Bud said:


> We might have a creator.
> But why worship a "God" if he done nothing for you?


What!? He/She has done so much for me!! I'm very thankful!! I have so much love in my family and life... life's great!!
faith is a powerful thing!! You would never know though...


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## Heisenberg (Dec 26, 2010)

Your words echo some of my favorite quotes tardis and Nic.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? 
Then he is not omnipotent. 
Is he able, but not willing? 
Then he is malevolent. 
Is he both able and willing? 
Then whence cometh evil? 
Is he neither able nor willing? 
Then why call him God?" 
&#8212; Epicurus

This one is a bit of a paraphrase
"We are all made of star stuff, the universe made manifest. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." 
&#8212; Carl Sagan




sleeperls93 said:


> I believe, and have faith in GOD


What does this have to do with anything?


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## sleeperls93 (Dec 26, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> Your words echo some of my favorite quotes tardis.
> 
> "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
> Then he is not omnipotent.
> ...


 I could apply my faith with any scientific theory, and facts of creationism, and evolution for that matter. by simply believing that the universal elements of life in the universe, are simply God's tools; tools he used and created to create the Universe, and us.... You don't have to agree with me, but my faith and it's powers, keep me stubborn to my beliefs, lol


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## Heisenberg (Dec 26, 2010)

sleeperls93 said:


> I could apply my faith with any scientific theory, and facts of creationism, and evolution for that matter. by simply believing that the universal elements of life in the universe, are simply God's tools; tools he used and created to create the Universe, and us.... You don't have to agree with me, but my faith and it's powers, keep me stubborn to my beliefs, lol


Personal beliefs are fine with me, just didn't see what it had to do with my post. The false belief (faith) in god involves much more than the two terms I defined here. It's beyond the scope of this post. Perhaps we will delve into your statement when we examine the fallacies of 'Moving the goal post' and unfalsifiable theories.


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## sleeperls93 (Dec 26, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> Your words echo some of my favorite quotes tardis and Nic.
> 
> "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
> Then he is not omnipotent.
> ...


I could apply my faith with any scienific theory, (in most part created by non believers of God) and scientific facts used to explain creationism. The universe, and all elements within it, that make life possible, are all tools of a wonderful God's trade... and there his tools and he uses them as he pleases... Many people say there's is alot of suffering in the world, hence trying to denounce God, but God gave man free will, and will not intervene in the outcomes of the world, but I also believe that he has a special plan for those who praise him and live by his rules( witch is not a bad thing for society)... so the suffering is only temporary for thos ewith faith... hey, it's what I feel, you don't have to agree, lol... I did just smoke a fat blunt of haze, and am rolling another, lol, peace, and merry christmas to all!


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## guy incognito (Dec 26, 2010)

I think a better explanation is that all the elements came from supernovas and follow the laws the physics. And here we are as a product of that.


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## tardis (Dec 26, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> Your words echo some of my favorite quotes tardis and Nic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love it! Yup, we are all star stuff, and eventually we'll hurl into our own or another star and once again be star stuff.


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## tardis (Dec 26, 2010)

sleeperls93 said:


> I could apply my faith with any scientific theory, and facts of creationism, and evolution for that matter. by simply believing that the universal elements of life in the universe, are simply God's tools; tools he used and created to create the Universe, and us.... You don't have to agree with me, but my faith and it's powers, keep me stubborn to my beliefs, lol


I have faith that Ronald McDonald made God. That he manifests thru McDonalds. If you don't have faith in that like I do then you are just simply unable to see the truth, you are blind. Open your heart to Ronald McDonald and your soul will live forever! You see, Ronald McDonald made God, who made creation, who made scientific theory who made evolution. Don't you see it all goes back to Ronald McDonald, have faith or you'll burn in taco hell forever.


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## mexiblunt (Dec 26, 2010)

Man made god so god could make Men, Then man made the devil so he could understand.


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## sleeperls93 (Dec 26, 2010)

tardis said:


> I have faith that Ronald McDonald made God. That he manifests thru McDonalds. If you don't have faith in that like I do then you are just simply unable to see the truth, you are blind. Open your heart to Ronald McDonald and your soul will live forever! You see, Ronald McDonald made God, who made creation, who made scientific theory who made evolution. Don't you see it all goes back to Ronald McDonald, have faith or you'll burn in taco hell forever.


Good luck to you with that!! I hope that works out for you!!! Of course ronald mcdonald is god, he invented the burgers! So retarded hawaiian stoners have something to eat!!


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## Hum215 (Dec 26, 2010)

Personally, I don't believe in invisible people or deities. However I can say that people do find patterns in randomness. Often we make decisions before we see enough trials to overcome a few standard deviations so, we believe something before the proof has actually been seen.


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## sleeperls93 (Dec 26, 2010)

Hum215 said:


> Personally, I don't believe in invisible people or deities. However I can say that people do find patterns in randomness. Often we make decisions before we see enough trials to overcome a few standard deviations so, we believe something before the proof has actually been seen.


 The things i have experienced are not random... and I have experienced proof.... it's not religion, it's faith... but I'm done, I'm not going to get into a debate with you so called "scholars" lmao.... your to wise lol


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## The Ruiner (Dec 26, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> In my quest to understand why some false beliefs persist, I have found that it's easiest to start with the simple things. The same mistakes of logic and perception that cause silly beliefs like superstitions are also responsible for the big false beliefs of this world..like ghosts, alien abductions and yes, god. This post covers only two of those mistakes.
> 
> The first thing that comes into play in many superstitions is a mistake of logic called, post hoc ergo proctor hoc, which means, after this therefore because of this.
> 
> ...


I respect your intellect man, but really alien abduction (or at least interaction) is not "silly," there are way too many unanswered questions about it...If you think it's "silly" I want to know how you can explain the work of *Dr. Roger Lier* as "silly."

To think we "know it all" is silly...people can believe what they want and rationality and intellect can only go so far to explain what is actually real. These implants are more real than your logic...They have substance...whereas your position is based off of nothing but your own limited perception of the world in which you live. 

Google "the battle of los angeles" and then tell me belief in aliens is silly...


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## bobbypyn (Dec 26, 2010)

wow.... this has taken me aback. that atheism would have such a strong following among this group is truly baffling. anyone who would place disembodied spirits in the same realm as elves and other fictitious creatures is laughable. all i can say is, when you all die & your memories and personality are still in tact, remember; Bobby told you so. I'm not going to go too far into why I'm so dead certain of my beliefs, but for those who would adopt a scientific outlook on the afterlife, i humbly present this link. it is real. the information presented is very compelling, but you make your own choice.
www.worlditc.org 
of particular interest to scientists would be the research of one George Meek. co-inventor of the Spiricom device. atheists are just petulant.

When the great innovation appears, it will almost certainly be in muddied, incomplete and confusing form. To the discoverer himself, it will be only half understood; to everybody else it will be a mystery. For any speculation which does not at first glance look crazy, there is no hope.- Niels Bohr


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## Hayduke (Dec 26, 2010)

sleeperls93 said:


> Good luck to you with that!! I hope that works out for you!!! Of course ronald mcdonald is god, he invented the burgers! So retarded hawaiian stoners have something to eat!!


100 Hail Grimaces...


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## sleeperls93 (Dec 26, 2010)

Hayduke said:


> 100 Hail Grimaces...


Lol!!! that's good!!


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## captain chronizzle (Dec 26, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> In my quest to understand why some false beliefs persist, I have found that it's easiest to start with the simple things. The same mistakes of logic and perception that cause silly beliefs like superstitions are also responsible for the big false beliefs of this world..like ghosts, alien abductions and yes, god. This post covers only two of those mistakes.
> 
> The first thing that comes into play in many superstitions is a mistake of logic called, post hoc ergo proctor hoc, which means, after this therefore because of this.
> 
> ...




yeah, its like gun control. human beings can be sooooo intelligent, then turn around and be soooooo ignorant.

O.p. have you seen idiocracy?


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## sleeperls93 (Dec 26, 2010)

captain chronizzle said:


> yeah, its like gun control. human beings can be sooooo intelligent, then turn around and be soooooo ignorant.
> 
> O.p. have you seen idiocracy?


I love that movie!! perfect for stoners lol


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## Hum215 (Dec 26, 2010)

sleeperls93 said:


> The things i have experienced are not random... and I have experienced proof.... it's not religion, it's faith... but I'm done, I'm not going to get into a debate with you so called "scholars" lmao.... your to wise lol


Thank you for proving my point


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## Hum215 (Dec 26, 2010)

sleeperls93 said:


> I love that movie!! perfect for stoners lol


I agree, it is a great movie. However the future is now.


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## Hayduke (Dec 26, 2010)

Hum215 said:


> I agree, it is a great movie. However the future is now.


 The End is Nigh?...


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## sleeperls93 (Dec 26, 2010)

Hum215 said:


> Thank you for proving my point


I totally did, lol... hey, I'm happy in what you would probably call "ignorant bliss"... It works for me, you can't knock me for it, lol


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## sleeperls93 (Dec 26, 2010)

Hum215 said:


> I agree, it is a great movie. However the future is now.


Your getting a kick out of this aren't you? lol, it's ok though, you haven't walked a step in my shoes to be able to understand...


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## guy incognito (Dec 26, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> I respect your intellect man, but really alien abduction (or at least interaction) is not "silly," there are way too many unanswered questions about it...If you think it's "silly" I want to know how you can explain the work of *Dr. Roger Lier* as "silly."
> 
> To think we "know it all" is silly...people can believe what they want and rationality and intellect can only go so far to explain what is actually real. These implants are more real than your logic...They have substance...whereas your position is based off of nothing but your own limited perception of the world in which you live.
> 
> Google "the battle of los angeles" and then tell me belief in aliens is silly...


Did you quote the right post? 

Where are these implants? What kind of analysis has been done to prove they are not from earth?


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## guy incognito (Dec 26, 2010)

The more I read about Roger Leir the more silly I think he and anyone who believes in this stuff is.

Why have these chips not been reverse engineered? (or have they? - but why can't I find any info on it?) Why would they use radio waves to transmit information back to them as he claimed? I would think they must have mastered FTL travel in order to ever get to earth in the first place. If they can do that, AND find intelligent life on earth in the vast cosmos, how could they not have figured out how human biology works? Why is roger leir the only one who has removed these chips out of the millions of doctors on earth? 

The whole thing wreaks of conspiracy theory and bullshit.


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## The Ruiner (Dec 26, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> The more I read about Roger Leir the more silly I think he and anyone who believes in this stuff is.
> 
> Why have these chips not been reverse engineered? (or have they? - but why can't I find any info on it?) Why would they use radio waves to transmit information back to them as he claimed? I would think they must have mastered FTL travel in order to ever get to earth in the first place. If they can do that, AND find intelligent life on earth in the vast cosmos, how could they not have figured out how human biology works? Why is roger leir the only one who has removed these chips out of the millions of doctors on earth?
> 
> The whole thing wreaks of conspiracy theory and bullshit.


You are making assumptions about his work without even trying to clarify...he works with other well-respected scientist and no one, not even the Los Alamos Lab can explain these implants. How could humans reverse engineer that which they dont even have the capability to reproduce? We do not have access to the materials used, they are only found in deep space. And they behave like nothing else ever observed...

If you actually took the time to familiarize yourself with his work (and I admit, I am not fully qualified to debate it, and no one here probably is either), your questions might be answered.


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## mindphuk (Dec 26, 2010)

Regardless of whether or not alien visitation is in fact a reality or still fiction as most skeptics would claim. I think we can all agree that the probability for alien visitation is magnitudes higher than the probability of Judeo-Christian god with all of the flaws and contradictions in the bible intact. This idea that all beliefs are equally valid is nonsense. Some weird beliefs are vastly more credible, even without ANY evidence, than other weird beliefs.


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## mindphuk (Dec 26, 2010)

There was a thread about Dr. Lier here before. I think we all came to the conclusion he's completely genuine and the implants are solid proof of alien visitation to our planet. However, don't go to him to have your implant removed. I'll do it for you much cheaper and faster than him, and encase the implant in acrylic plastic attached to a chain so you can hang it round your neck to show disbelievers. Let's say $499.00 for the complete package.


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## Perfextionist420 (Dec 26, 2010)

I think that it is very naive and ignorant to believe we are alone in the universe, mathematically it would make sense that life exists elsewhere in the universe. Then the question arises why wouldn't we have plain and simple contact. If an alien race had managed to master space travel that can allow them to arrive at earth it would stand to reason that they are a much more advanced than us and upon viewing our planet would conclude that we are a lost cause. In order to realistically travel the distances of the universe these beings would have to adhere to what we understand as quantum physics. In our ordinary understanding of physics it suggests that light is the fastest known speed and limit of travel (this would take countless lifetimes to reach our nearest galaxy). However in quantum physics it suggests that space and time are tangible and simultaneous which would allow a being to essentially fold space and time to appear where and when they wish. 

If a race had managed to discover and manipulate quantum physics upon viewing our world we would look hopeless, the fact of the matter is we as a species possess the capability and technology to solve the vast majority of our problems here on earth but lack the uniformed interest to address the issues. Violence and self preservation is hardwired into our minds and the average person lacks the ability to let go of this.


I don't personally know for a fact that alien life exists in the universe as I haven't experienced it first hand. I just believe that logically and mathematically it would make sense life exists elsewhere.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 26, 2010)

Alien Abduction at least falls into the realm of possibility. When I say some mistakes of logic/perception/memory lead people to the false belief in aliens, it's true. People are fooled everyday into thinking that ordinary things are UFO's, fooled into thinking they have memories of abduction, mistake well understood and documented phenomena like sleep paralysis for abduction... whether or not it actually happens outside of these mistakes is beside the point.

Since false belief in aliens is rarely due to confirmation bias or post hoc reasoning, i'll leave further comment to another thread.


&#8220;If it&#8217;s true that our species is alone in the universe, then I&#8217;d have to say the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little&#8221; &#8211; George Carlin


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## The Ruiner (Dec 26, 2010)

Perfextionist420 said:


> I think that it is very naive and ignorant to believe we are alone in the universe, mathematically it would make sense that life exists elsewhere in the universe. *Then the question arises why wouldn't we have plain and simple contact*. If an alien race had managed to master space travel that can allow them to arrive at earth it would stand to reason that they are a much more advanced than us and upon viewing our planet would conclude that we are a lost cause. In order to realistically travel the distances of the universe these beings would have to adhere to what we understand as quantum physics. In our ordinary understanding of physics it suggests that light is the fastest known speed and limit of travel (this would take countless lifetimes to reach our nearest galaxy). However in quantum physics it suggests that space and time are tangible and simultaneous which would allow a being to essentially fold space and time to appear where and when they wish.
> 
> If a race had managed to discover and manipulate quantum physics upon viewing our world we would look hopeless, the fact of the matter is we as a species possess the capability and technology to solve the vast majority of our problems here on earth but lack the uniformed interest to address the issues. Violence and self preservation is hardwired into our minds and the average person lacks the ability to let go of this.
> 
> ...


As far as the part in bold, there are MANY people that would say that we do, but that we are lacking the "official" disclosure. I am one of them...I personally think that we have been and continue to be visited by 3-dimensional beings, and that we are constantly in contact with other-dimensional being as well...

The lack of official government disclosure is just another way to keep the lid on an out of control situation (but there have been some very HUGE steps taken, like the vatican hiring advisors to correlate belief in ET's with their faith, and smaller governments openly releasing their UFO data)...There are unexplained phenomena of abductions, implants, mass ufo sightings, govt harassment of whistleblowers, cattle mutiliations (which most terrestial DNA experiments are done using BOVINE-based serums), unexplained attacks on UFO's over Los Angeles...At what point does the mounting evidence trump official negligence to explain these things?

I mean seriously, if someone like Zecharia Sitchin was such a quack why did the federal government see it such a priority to take a dying man to court on trumped-up bogus terrorism charges? It just makes no sense...


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## tardis (Dec 26, 2010)

sleeperls93 said:


> Good luck to you with that!! I hope that works out for you!!! Of course ronald mcdonald is god, he invented the burgers! So retarded hawaiian stoners have something to eat!!


Saying God made science not seem to have god is equally valid in logic to Ronald Mcdonald made God who made science not seem to have god. I'm just pointing out the rationality of your argument so you can see it clearly for yourself. If you missed that they you have lived up to your avatar picture of the character from East Bound & Down.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 26, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> I respect your intellect man, but really alien abduction (or at least interaction) is not "silly," there are way too many unanswered questions about it...If you think it's "silly" I want to know how you can explain the work of *Dr. Roger Lier* as "silly."


I shall have to research a bit about Dr. Lier before I make a thread about the mistakes that lead to belief in aliens. But for the record, I said superstitions were silly, but the same mistakes can lead to bigger false beliefs like ghosts, aliens and god, which are in fact quite serious issues. When parents withhold medical treatment for their child to instead pray for them I think that is pretty serious. When scam artists charge you big money to facilitate talking to your dead loved ones, that is pretty serious. When entire groups of people are oppressed and abused simply because they don't believe in a certain god, that is often deadly serious.


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## tardis (Dec 26, 2010)

sleeperls93 said:


> The things i have experienced are not random... and I have experienced proof.... it's not religion, it's faith... but I'm done, I'm not going to get into a debate with you so called "scholars" lmao.... your to wise lol


No, you had a human animal phenomena of seeing patterns. Of associating say a prayer with a reaction. Because you probably prayed all the time, then one of your prayers came true, thus that is the one you recall and use to justify your belief in an illogical concept. Take for example if five times a day I fart in my hand then throw the coins in the air hopeing for all heads. after a month i'm sure a few times all heads would wind up and I would equally logically believe that farting in my hand and throwing coins up in the air brings all heads more often then not because i'll remember the chemical reactions in my brain from the times when it did happen thus intensifying my reaction and making it more memorable and easier to recall. But then agian as your minister siad i'm just the devil tryign to throw you off the path to heaven right? LOL! I love christians, they are self hypnotized and have no idea that they are hiding from the truth, all the while treating people they believe act like they actually do like shit feeling superior. 

That said some of my best friends are christian ministers... but then again everyone is flawed somehow.


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## The Ruiner (Dec 26, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> I shall have to research a bit about Dr. Lier before I make a post about the mistakes that lead to belief in aliens. But for the record, I said superstitions were silly, but the same mistakes can lead to bigger false beliefs like ghosts, aliens and god, which are in fact quite serious issues. When parents withhold medical treatment for their child to instead pray for them I think that is pretty serious. When scam artists charge you big money to facilitate talking to your dead loved ones, that is pretty serious. When entire groups of people are oppressed and abused simply because they don't believe in a certain god, that is often deadly serious.


I would say then that your inability to view the experiences of others as nothing but supersition is your own confirmation bias, especially being that you will never have all the information to make a logical conclusion as to why they believe what they do...There really is no difference between the two as a matter of perception.


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## tardis (Dec 26, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> The more I read about Roger Leir the more silly I think he and anyone who believes in this stuff is.
> 
> Why have these chips not been reverse engineered? (or have they? - but why can't I find any info on it?) Why would they use radio waves to transmit information back to them as he claimed? I would think they must have mastered FTL travel in order to ever get to earth in the first place. If they can do that, AND find intelligent life on earth in the vast cosmos, how could they not have figured out how human biology works? Why is roger leir the only one who has removed these chips out of the millions of doctors on earth?
> 
> The whole thing wreaks of conspiracy theory and bullshit.


We are humans. our sins include seeing patterns when there are none. be it relgion, be it the tiny piece of metal floating around in our leg MUST be because it is an alien device transmitting information back to surrounding motherships about what is going on with the characters on the show Glee.... it all fits... 

But in all honesty from the other side of the coin it is MORE likely then not that there is life on Uropa as well as out in the universe. Since it exists here it should exist there too, nto to mention life should then exist on all levels of our reality not just the one we wanter around in (think atomic, think macro). But aliens being quiet about being here is as likely as god being as quiet about being here... or time travelers on cell phones in chaplin films. I'm not saying its 100% untrue, but I am saying if you want to believe that on faith then you sure as hell better be aperson that doesn't complain when someone believes they are a vampire, or someone thinks they are jesus. You better give them the respect you expect or you are a hypocrite.


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## tardis (Dec 26, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> I would say then that your inability to view the experiences of others as nothing but supersition is your own confirmation bias, especially being that you will never have all the information to make a logical conclusion as to why they believe what they do...There really is no difference between the two as a matter of perception.


They have a great episode of Penn & Tellers BullS*%T about him and his implants. I'm serious, its like season 2 or 3.


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## The Ruiner (Dec 26, 2010)

tardis said:


> They have a great episode of Penn & Tellers BullS*%T about him and his implants. I'm serious, its like season 2 or 3.


Oh please share...


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## The Ruiner (Dec 26, 2010)

I would to hear what entertainers have to say about science...Usually right-wing debunkers do a really shitty job of doing such.


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## tardis (Dec 26, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> Oh please share...


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0672523/

" The debunkers debunk alien implants and the idea that Bush senior and Bush junior are reptilian aliens."


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## The Ruiner (Dec 26, 2010)

tardis said:


> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0672523/
> 
> " The debunkers debunk alien implants and the idea that Bush senior and Bush junior are reptilian aliens."


So it seems that they never even explore the implants...they just attack Leir...

This falls under the category of "infotainment"


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## Heisenberg (Dec 26, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> I would say then that your inability to view the experiences of others as nothing but supersition is your own confirmation bias, especially being that you will never have all the information to make a logical conclusion as to why they believe what they do...There really is no difference between the two as a matter of perception.


It's true that skeptics can develop a bias, but I don't think that is what is going on here. I was trying to distinguish between silly superstitions such as fearing a black cat, knocking on wood, ect and more serious beliefs like ghosts and alternative medical treatments. I simply pointed out that the same mistakes are responsible for silly and serious false beliefs alike. I am not saying that all others experiences amount to superstition. Things like psychic cold readings and spoon bending can be successfully performed using ordinary everyday tricks. Does that mean all psychics are using cold readings? Not necessarily, but it does offer a realistic explination which makes it unessesary to go looking for a paranormal one.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 26, 2010)

tardis said:


> They have a great episode of Penn & Tellers BullS*%T about him and his implants. I'm serious, its like season 2 or 3.


 OK, I actually just watched that episode a few weeks ago, just didn't realize it was the same Dr.



The Ruiner said:


> I would to hear what entertainers have to say about science...Usually right-wing debunkers do a really shitty job of doing such.


 Ad Hominem attack aka poisoning the well. tsk tsk



The Ruiner said:


> So it seems that they never even explore the implants...they just attack Leir...
> 
> This falls under the category of "infotainment"


Well they did make quite a bit of fun out of the fact that hes a foot doctor. "Did the aliens have to walk 10,000 light years to get here?" (and really, this is an unfair ad hominem attack on their part) Once they get serious they point out the fact that once Dr Leirs findings undergo peer review, they don't appear to be extraordinary at all. They offer alternative explanation as to what these 'implants' might be. They aren't made of material never seen on earth, in fact they are often fat deposites. They then go on to point out how odd it would be for aliens to travel light years, abduct people, erase their memory, only so they can leave fat deposits under their skin. Before moving on to other people, they point out the Dr. Leir was recently suspended from practicing three years due to gross negligence.


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## The Ruiner (Dec 26, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> It's true that skeptics can develop a bias, but I don't think that is what is going on here. I was trying to distinguish between silly superstitions such as fearing a black cat, knocking on wood, ect and more serious beliefs like ghosts and alternative medical treatments. I simply pointed out that the same mistakes are responsible for silly and serious false beliefs alike. I am not saying that all others experiences amount to superstition. Things like psychic cold readings and spoon bending can be successfully performed using ordinary everyday tricks. Does that mean all psychics are using cold readings? Not necessarily, but it does offer a realistic explination which makes it unessesary to go looking for a paranormal one.


But just because your answer for one situation has been given, it does not mean that answer is applicable to a similar one. It offers one explanation for one situation. 

Who gets to make the distinctions between silly and serious? It's not up to the logicians...its up to the individual.


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## The Ruiner (Dec 26, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> OK, I actually just watched that episode a few weeks ago, just didn't realize it was the same Dr.
> 
> Ad Hominem attack aka poisoning the well. tsk tsk
> 
> ...


They offer an alternative, not a conclusion. And furthermore they didnt explore all 16 implants, nor their compositions (which leir does discuss along with chemists and nuclear physicists, which begs the question: did P&T do an honest job of exploring the issue? Or are they just entertaining you?). 

They edited for what they wanted to end with "why would they leave fat deposits" as if their alternative was the conclusion and they have thoroughly explored the issue, definitively. No fucking way.

You are smarter than that I hope.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 26, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> But just because your answer for one situation has been given, it does not mean that answer is applicable to a similar one. It offers one explanation for one situation.
> 
> Who gets to make the distinctions between silly and serious? It's not up to the logicians...its up to the individual.


It was an example of the approach, which is; lets try to find an ordinary explination for something before we go looking for paranormal. In addition lets try to explain and understand why, if this (fill in the blank) belief is false, what led people to accept these false beliefs, and why do they persist. When we can offer a realistic explination and demonstrate the mechanisms which lead to the unrealistic conclusion, I think that goes a long way to explain what is really going on. In the case of alien abductions, we have done exactly that. 

You are sorta arguing over semantics here. I suppose I should have said 'simple' and 'complex' rather than 'silly' and 'serious'. When you try to figure out why people believe black cats crossing your path is bad luck, it's pretty simple. When you try to figure out why people believe in god, it's pretty complex. But really, throwing salt over your shoulder is pretty silly, wearing a lucky shirt for the big game is pretty silly, fearing the number 666 is pretty silly.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 26, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> They offer an alternative, not a conclusion. And furthermore they didnt explore all 16 implants, nor their compositions (which leir does discuss along with chemists and nuclear physicists, which begs the question: did P&T do an honest job of exploring the issue? Or are they just entertaining you?).
> 
> They edited for what they wanted to end with "why would they leave fat deposits" as if their alternative was the conclusion and they have thoroughly explored the issue, definitively. No fucking way.
> 
> You are smarter than that I hope.


For sure. They spent about 5 min on him out of a 30 min program, and most of it was entertainingly funny. They touched on him because they were at a convention, and he was one of the big draws. They spent a little time with each of the big names bringing people into that particular convention. 

I was trying to summarize for you that segment because you said,


> Oh please share... I would to hear what entertainers have to say about science.


 Was just trying to fill you in on what they said, not endorse it. I may or may not agree with them upon doing my own research. Probably will though.  I mean, when your findings dont survive peer review, that's pretty much the death nail.


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## The Ruiner (Dec 26, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> It was an example of the approach, which is; lets try to find an ordinary explination for something before we go looking for paranormal. In addition lets try to explain and understand why, if this (fill in the blank) belief is false, what led people to accept these false beliefs, and why do they persist. When we can offer a realistic explination and demonstrate the mechanisms which lead to the unrealistic conclusion, I think that goes a long way to explain what is really going on. In the case of alien abductions, we have done exactly that.
> 
> You are sorta arguing over semantics here. I suppose I should have said 'simple' and 'complex' rather than 'silly' and 'serious'. When you try to figure out why people believe black cats crossing your path is bad luck, it's pretty simple. When you try to figure out why people believe in god, it's pretty complex. But really, throwing salt over your shoulder is pretty silly, wearing a lucky shirt for the big game is pretty silly, fearing the number 666 is pretty silly.


I can agree on seeking simple explanations first, but I cant agree with MAKING simple explanations (like that of P&T & Dr. Leir) when there cannot be a simple one found. If you are ending your "debunking" of superstitions with "well, it was probably just this..." then you have accomplished nothing and the questions remain unanswered. 

Your ideas of simple versus complex are totally your own, for many people belief in god is simple...I am not arguing semantics, this is just manner in which debate must be done, using words...


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## The Ruiner (Dec 26, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> For sure. They spent about 5 min on him out of a 30 min program, and most of it was entertainingly funny. They touched on him because they were at a convention, and he was one of the big draws. They spent a little time with each of the big names bringing people into that particular convention.
> 
> I was trying to summarize for you that segment because you said, Was just trying to fill you in on what they said, not endorse it. I may or may not agree with them upon doing my own research. Probably will though.  I mean, when your published findings dont survive peer review, that's pretty much the death nail.


Death nail for whom? P&T didnt take this to other chemists or nuclear physicists that have worked with leir have they? They took it to another podiatrist ...Roger leir didnt do the chemical analysis himself of these objects, he only extracted them. He admits that he knows very little about the actual composition and has had other scientists evaluate them. It makes to logical sense to have a podiatrist do a peer review of something out of his scope of knowledge.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 26, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> Death nail for whom? P&T didnt take this to other chemists or nuclear physicists that have worked with leir have they? They took it to another podiatrist ...Roger leir didnt do the chemical analysis himself of these objects, he only extracted them. He admits that he knows very little about the actual composition and has had other scientists evaluate them. It makes to logical sense to have a podiatrist do a peer review of something out of his scope of knowledge.


Nah I don't see what P&T did as peer review, not by a longshot. What they did or tired to do is create doubt. Doubt leads to questions. Questions lead to answers. 

They did however state that his research doesn't pass peer review. This may not even be true, but I suspect it is since we haven't read about these implants in any credible medical journals. Of course I am assuming he hasn't been published, I haven't done my research yet... But if it is true then you have to conclude he is unpublished for one of two reasons... his lack of merit, or a giant global conspiracy among scientist.


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## The Ruiner (Dec 26, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> Nah I don't see what P&T did as peer review, not by a longshot. What they did or tired to do is create doubt. Doubt leads to questions. Questions lead to answers.
> 
> They did however state that his research doesn't pass peer review. This may not even be true, but I suspect it is since we haven't read about these implants in any credible medical journals. Of course I am assuming he hasn't been published, I haven't done my research yet... But if it is true then you have to conclude he is unpublished for one of two reasons... his lack of merit, or a giant global conspiracy among scientist.


Well, believe or not, Dr. Leir and his team are actually trying to get a peer-reviewed scholarly article in ...I cant remember which journal, but it is reputable....They WANT answers, that's why they are doing what they are...Penn & Teller have no vested interest in finding answers, they have a vested interest in keeping diminished attention spans of those who fancy themselves as informed because they watched some bullshit show of theirs.


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## Hayduke (Dec 26, 2010)

tardis said:


> I have faith that Ronald McDonald made God. That he manifests thru McDonalds. If you don't have faith in that like I do then you are just simply unable to see the truth, you are blind. Open your heart to Ronald McDonald and your soul will live forever! You see, Ronald McDonald made God, who made creation, who made scientific theory who made evolution. Don't you see it all goes back to Ronald McDonald, have faith or you'll burn in taco hell forever.


I worship the Hamburglar...


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## Heisenberg (Dec 26, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> Well, believe or not, Dr. Leir and his team are actually trying to get a peer-reviewed scholarly article in ...I cant remember which journal, but it is reputable....They WANT answers, that's why they are doing what they are...Penn & Teller have no vested interest in finding answers, they have a vested interest in keeping diminished attention spans from those who fancy themselves as informed because they watched some bullshit show of theirs.


Well when he gets published be sure to let us know. I would be extremely interested in reading the article. If actual credible evidence of aliens is found that would be an exciting and game changing event. I would be happy to be alive during something like that. But for now, I will continue to doubt.


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## The Ruiner (Dec 26, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> Well when he gets published be sure to let us know. I would be extremely interested in reading the article. If actual credible evidence of aliens is found that would be an exciting and game changing event. I would be happy to be alive during something like that.


Well, the reality is that he already has it...he is just trying to get it published. I can tell you understand what that means, it would be huge. But just because it doesnt have mainstream acceptance doesnt mean it is any less true...

Remember Galileo.


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## sleeperls93 (Dec 26, 2010)

tardis said:


> No, you had a human animal phenomena of seeing patterns. Of associating say a prayer with a reaction. Because you probably prayed all the time, then one of your prayers came true, thus that is the one you recall and use to justify your belief in an illogical concept. Take for example if five times a day I fart in my hand then throw the coins in the air hopeing for all heads. after a month i'm sure a few times all heads would wind up and I would equally logically believe that farting in my hand and throwing coins up in the air brings all heads more often then not because i'll remember the chemical reactions in my brain from the times when it did happen thus intensifying my reaction and making it more memorable and easier to recall. But then agian as your minister siad i'm just the devil tryign to throw you off the path to heaven right? LOL! I love christians, they are self hypnotized and have no idea that they are hiding from the truth, all the while treating people they believe act like they actually do like shit feeling superior.
> 
> That said some of my best friends are christian ministers... but then again everyone is flawed somehow.


If you call my wife surviving kidney failure.... and the nephrologist telling us to say our final goodbyes because she would not make it through the night; and him also saying she has a 98% mortality rate.... then she survives??? well she will have to be on dialasys for the rest of her life the nephrologist said... yeah?? try 2 weeks!! the doctors were dumbfounded, claiming it a miracle.... now if you call that random, so be it, but she didn't just have my prayers, she was in the prayers of several thousand!! Who were backing this effort of prayer and faith... You can laugh all you want, but there's nothing in the world that would change me... You say you have friends that are christian? ask them about the power of prayer... just to see what they say....


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## tardis (Dec 26, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> So it seems that they never even explore the implants...they just attack Leir...
> 
> This falls under the category of "infotainment"


No actually they took what was in the guys leg to a DIFFERENT scientist who said there was nothing out of earth about it, like Lier said. And they got a list of ways such a piece of metal could wind up in someones leg by scientists...


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## tardis (Dec 26, 2010)

sleeperls93 said:


> If you call my wife surviving kidney failure.... and the nephrologist telling us to say our final goodbyes because she would not make it through the night; and him also saying she has a 98% mortality rate.... then she survives??? well she will have to be on dialasys for the rest of her life the nephrologist said... yeah?? try 2 weeks!! the doctors were dumbfounded, claiming it a miracle.... now if you call that random, so be it, but she didn't just have my prayers, she was in the prayers of several thousand!! Who were backing this effort of prayer and faith... You can laugh all you want, but there's nothing in the world that would change me... You say you have friends that are christian? ask them about the power of prayer... just to see what they say....


something very similar happend to my uncle. He's an atheist.


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## tardis (Dec 26, 2010)

Hayduke said:


> I worship the Hamburglar...


BLASPHEMY!!! You better appese the great Ronald by eating a stale apple pie now!


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## mindphuk (Dec 26, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> But just because your answer for one situation has been given, it does not mean that answer is applicable to a similar one. It offers one explanation for one situation.
> 
> Who gets to make the distinctions between silly and serious? It's not up to the logicians...its up to the individual.


 The problem is that scientists that claim to have found evidence for aliens fail in the most basic ways. They never attempt to negate the null hypothesis, which is what the skeptics end up having to do. If the scientists in question actually did their job, there wouldn't be a need for such skepticism.

Think about it. The working hypothesis seems to be that the implants are alien. The null hypothesis then is that there are terrestrial explanations for them. The only way to prove your hypothesis is to show that no one can explain these items as normal, terrestrial origin. When you go around discussing results that only you or your team have been privy to and then charge to see information on your web site. The idea of free and open exchange of ideas immediately goes out the window. He hasn't been very convincing that he has done his due dilligence in rejecting the null.


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## Hayduke (Dec 26, 2010)

tardis said:


> BLASPHEMY!!! You better appese the great Ronald by eating a stale apple pie now!


You're not going to believe this...but I have one right here...All praise Ronald McDonald!


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## tardis (Dec 26, 2010)

Hayduke said:


> You're not going to believe this...but I have one right here...All praise Ronald McDonald!


Ronald Works in Mysterious ways!!! See right there PROOF that Ronald McDonald is in fact the creator of God and Gods Universe and thus in control of everything, showing us his proof if you only focus on the lucky moments!!! All Hail the Great Clown!


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## guy incognito (Dec 27, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> You are making assumptions about his work without even trying to clarify...he works with other well-respected scientist and no one, not even the Los Alamos Lab can explain these implants. How could humans reverse engineer that which they dont even have the capability to reproduce? We do not have access to the materials used, they are only found in deep space. And they behave like nothing else ever observed...
> 
> If you actually took the time to familiarize yourself with his work (and I admit, I am not fully qualified to debate it, and no one here probably is either), your questions might be answered.


What assumptions am I making about his work? I tried to find the answers to those questions but didn't find anything. Also what materials are they made of that aren't found on earth, and only found in deep space? If you cannot name specific elements I am calling bullshit.


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## Hayduke (Dec 27, 2010)

tardis said:


> Ronald Works in Mysterious ways!!! See right there PROOF that Ronald McDonald is in fact the creator of God and Gods Universe and thus in control of everything, showing us his proof if you only focus on the lucky moments!!! All Hail the Great Clown!


 Ok...but I am a liberated guy...I like to think that HE...is a SHE...

[youtube]_UKLncvGxQ8&feature=related[/youtube]


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## guy incognito (Dec 27, 2010)

tardis said:


> We are humans. our sins include seeing patterns when there are none. be it relgion, be it the tiny piece of metal floating around in our leg MUST be because it is an alien device transmitting information back to surrounding motherships about what is going on with the characters on the show Glee.... it all fits...
> 
> But in all honesty from the other side of the coin it is MORE likely then not that there is life on Uropa as well as out in the universe. Since it exists here it should exist there too, nto to mention life should then exist on all levels of our reality not just the one we wanter around in (think atomic, think macro). But aliens being quiet about being here is as likely as god being as quiet about being here... or time travelers on cell phones in chaplin films. I'm not saying its 100% untrue, but I am saying if you want to believe that on faith then you sure as hell better be aperson that doesn't complain when someone believes they are a vampire, or someone thinks they are jesus. You better give them the respect you expect or you are a hypocrite.


I have almost no doubt life exists somewhere else in the universe. Possibly even intelligent life. My first problem lies with them being able to detect where we are. Radio, tv, and other EM waves propagate at the speed of light, so our communication sphere is not very far out into the universe because we didn't start sending those out until extremely recently on a universal time scale. They can't possibly detect us until those signals get out there, unless they independent of that just knew where in the universe to look to find intelligent life. My second problem with it is there ability to traverse the cosmos. They would probably have had to set out to get to us before we even existed. Or they can travel faster than light, or they can teleport, both of which I believe are impossible to attain regardless of how much time and resources you have. My third problem is with the fact they could somehow get in and do all these things that are supposedly credited to them without being discovered by any credible source. Only nutty conspiracy theorists and lone country hicks ever have any "evidence".


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## guy incognito (Dec 27, 2010)

Perfextionist420 said:


> I think that it is very naive and ignorant to believe we are alone in the universe, mathematically it would make sense that life exists elsewhere in the universe. *Then the question arises why wouldn't we have plain and simple contact.* If an alien race had managed to master space travel that can allow them to arrive at earth it would stand to reason that they are a much more advanced than us and upon viewing our planet would conclude that we are a lost cause. In order to realistically travel the distances of the universe these beings would have to adhere to what we understand as quantum physics. In our ordinary understanding of physics it suggests that light is the fastest known speed and limit of travel (this would take countless lifetimes to reach our nearest galaxy). However in quantum physics it suggests that space and time are tangible and simultaneous which would allow a being to essentially fold space and time to appear where and when they wish.
> 
> If a race had managed to discover and manipulate quantum physics upon viewing our world we would look hopeless, the fact of the matter is we as a species possess the capability and technology to solve the vast majority of our problems here on earth but lack the uniformed interest to address the issues. Violence and self preservation is hardwired into our minds and the average person lacks the ability to let go of this.
> 
> ...


There are good reasons why even if there are bunches and bunches of intelligent life out there we will never have contact with them. I don't think you have a good understanding of quantum physics. I admit I don't have a full understanding, but I am familiar with it. Have read numerous books and had classes in university. I think the scenarios you describe are probably impossible. I agree life may exist elsewhere, but they won't ever get here.


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## sleeperls93 (Dec 27, 2010)

tardis said:


> something very similar happend to my uncle. He's an atheist.


Is that you in the avatar?? You look like a homo, to each his own though...


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## mexiblunt (Dec 27, 2010)

sleeperls93 said:


> Is that you in the avatar?? You look like a homo, to each his own though...


 I love the way you do unto others....


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## tardis (Dec 27, 2010)

sleeperls93 said:


> Is that you in the avatar?? You look like a homo, to each his own though...


Ohhh I see. You are doing personal attacks again so that you can use your selective memory to look at my return attacks and say "HA! Look at that guy, he's just mean which means he's with the devil which means that i'm the good guy which means I'm right since I don't like him!" Bro, you are trying to create a scenario where you can dismiss and forget all the things you learned about yourself and the fallacy of your religious beliefs by skimming over on a personal argument. Very common among both christians and ironically republicans (look at Hannity on fox news). 

Keep justifying your evil ways to the world thru religion.


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## tardis (Dec 27, 2010)

hayduke said:


> ok...but i am a liberated guy...i like to think that he...is a she...
> 
> [youtube]_uklncvgxq8&feature=related[/youtube]


all hail the holy breasts!


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## Hayduke (Dec 27, 2010)

tardis said:


> (look at Hannity on fox news).


 No thanks.


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## The Ruiner (Dec 27, 2010)

tardis said:


> No actually they took what was in the guys leg to a DIFFERENT scientist who said there was nothing out of earth about it, like Lier said. And they got a list of ways such a piece of metal could wind up in someones leg by scientists...


You are saying that Leir let P&T take the sample?


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## tardis (Dec 27, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> You are saying that Leir let P&T take the sample?


Are you saying that this scientists refuses to let other scientists see his evidence and give an unbias conclusion?


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## The Ruiner (Dec 27, 2010)

tardis said:


> Are you saying that this scientists refuses to let other scientists see his evidence and give an unbias conclusion?


Well, considering that he works with other scientists (Bob Koontz, Steve Colbern, some others) and has had a lab analysis done by *Los Alamos Labratory* whose findings leaned towards the materials being E.T. in origin I would say he has put it out there enough.


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## sleeperls93 (Dec 27, 2010)

mexiblunt said:


> I love the way you do unto others....


Lol! Got me there lol....


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## sleeperls93 (Dec 27, 2010)

tardis said:


> Ohhh I see. You are doing personal attacks again so that you can use your selective memory to look at my return attacks and say "HA! Look at that guy, he's just mean which means he's with the devil which means that i'm the good guy which means I'm right since I don't like him!" Bro, you are trying to create a scenario where you can dismiss and forget all the things you learned about yourself and the fallacy of your religious beliefs by skimming over on a personal argument. Very common among both christians and ironically republicans (look at Hannity on fox news).
> 
> Keep justifying your evil ways to the world thru religion.


It was just an observation, I'm sure your a swell guy lol


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## tardis (Dec 27, 2010)

sleeperls93 said:


> It was just an observation, I'm sure your a swell guy lol


I'm a very beloved guy. And don't worry, your mind will find away to bend back around to filling your delusion because thats what the human brain does to ensure the status quo in the life you set up continues.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 27, 2010)

*Believers turn into skeptics after conference*
"Even the true believers at a UFO conference in Rotorua were skeptical after a keynote speaker's presentation. Leir's information was overly technical and his video finished before any details could be seen, leaving delegates questioning the doctor's motives. He declined all interviews. In his presentation Leir said 'they [skeptics] must be psychics because they come to conclusions before looking at any of the evidence'. Delegates told The Daily Post they were not convinced by his presentation."

So his sales pitch didn't work and Dr Leir sees that as skeptics not wanting to look at evidence.

What it looks like to me is Dr Leir is saying "yes we have evidence" but when asked to present it, you must buy his book or purchase info from his website. I would think proof of aliens would provide plenty of revenue without having to use the same business model as porn sites. For someone who claims not to know much about these implants personally, he sure charges a lot to hear it. He comments on UFO crashes and cases that have nothing to do with implants. 

He bills himself as "Dr. Leir is well known and respected all over the world for his research into alien implants, and for the last forty-one years has been a successful physician here in the state of California." So when pressed for tech info he says he himself doesn't understand the implants, but when trying to draw a crowd he suddenly sounds like an expert.

Dr Leir says "I am not a UFO nut. I'm a doctor, a skeptical man of science. But until someone can prove otherwise, I have to work on the assumption that these implants are of alien origin." So he claims to be a skeptical scientists and then immediately outlines the opposite way science works. He's apparently never heard of Occam's razor.

The burden of proof falls to the person making the claim. Before we go looking for paranormal explanations we must rule out ordinary ones. It's clear that Dr Leir makes money off his claims and is not familiar with, or does not respect, the scientific method. Do I really need to go into the actual research?


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## tardis (Dec 27, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> *Believers turn into skeptics after conference*
> "Even the true believers at a UFO conference in Rotorua were skeptical after a keynote speaker's presentation. Leir's information was overly technical and his video finished before any details could be seen, leaving delegates questioning the doctor's motives. He declined all interviews. In his presentation Leir said 'they [skeptics] must be psychics because they come to conclusions before looking at any of the evidence'. Delegates told The Daily Post they were not convinced by his presentation."
> 
> So his sales pitch didn't work and Dr Leir sees that as skeptics not wanting to look at evidence.
> ...


Until proven otherwise I believe the ghost of Hitler is possessing Dr. Leir to promote an alien lie. Hitler was into aliens. So, like I said, until proven otherwise, this is all Hitlers ghosts doing to fool Americans.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 27, 2010)

tardis said:


> Until proven otherwise I believe the ghost of Hitler is possessing Dr. Leir to promote an alien lie. Hitler was into aliens. So, like I said, until proven otherwise, this is all Hitlers ghosts doing to fool Americans.


How much do you charge for proof of this information?


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## tardis (Dec 27, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> How much do you charge for proof of this information?


whatever the going rate for porn is.


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## The Ruiner (Dec 27, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> *Believers turn into skeptics after conference*
> "Even the true believers at a UFO conference in Rotorua were skeptical after a keynote speaker's presentation. Leir's information was overly technical and his video finished before any details could be seen, leaving delegates questioning the doctor's motives. He declined all interviews. In his presentation Leir said 'they [skeptics] must be psychics because they come to conclusions before looking at any of the evidence'. Delegates told The Daily Post they were not convinced by his presentation."
> 
> So his sales pitch didn't work and Dr Leir sees that as skeptics not wanting to look at evidence.
> ...


I dont know how hard it is for you to understand that he has worked with chemists and physicists and that they openly discuss their findings in interviews regularly. To say that he is not seeking pedestrian answers is patently false. Because he wants to make money is pretty reasonable, just because it upsets you is another matter entirely.

You are doing nothing here but trying to spread dirty laundry without actually being able to address the issue...since you cant debunk his work, you are left with what debunkers usually do when they fail- they attack the person, not the issue.


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## tardis (Dec 27, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> I dont know how hard it is for you to understand that he has worked with chemists and physicists and that they openly discuss their findings in interviews regularly. To say that he is not seeking pedestrian answers is patently false. Because he wants to make money is pretty reasonable, just because it upsets you is another matter entirely.
> 
> You are doing nothing here but trying to spread dirty laundry without actually being able to address the issue...since you cant debunk his work, you are left with what debunkers usually do when they fail- they attack the person, not the issue.


how can he debunk something that isn't proven?


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## Heisenberg (Dec 27, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> I dont know how hard it is for you to understand that he has worked with chemists and physicists and that they openly discuss their findings in interviews regularly. To say that he is not seeking pedestrian answers is patently false. Because he wants to make money is pretty reasonable, just because it upsets you is another matter entirely.
> 
> You are doing nothing here but trying to spread dirty laundry without actually being able to address the issue...since you cant debunk his work, you are left with what debunkers usually do when they fail- they attack the person, not the issue.


What I was pointing out is his lack of scientific merit. He may be a perfectly pleasant person to have lunch with, I have no idea. But anytime we go looking into claims of actual proof of aliens, we find the same characteristics we are finding here. I am not impressed that he found a couple other scientists to back him up, even a whole team wouldn't impress me. What I need is independent replication and review but the scientific community as a whole. That is the same standard we apply to any other body of knowledge.

They may discuss openly that they have evidence, but details are charged for. I am not the one saying he isn't 'seeking pedestrian answers', he is. He blatantly stated "until someone can prove otherwise, I have to work on the assumption that these implants are of alien origin." Someone meaning someone else... he is content to assume they are alien. That is NOT science.

I held my opinion until I did some research. What I found was no proof, shady dealings, and no transparency. What I found was a man making mistakes because he doesn't understand how the scientific method works, or why we have it in the first place. What I found was the typical tricks and mistakes often made with paranormal claims. I found information that, for obvious reasons, does not pass peer review when examined by actual scientists, even though it was first presented in 1996.


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## tardis (Dec 27, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> What I was pointing out is his lack of scientific merit. He may be a perfectly pleasant person to have lunch with, I have no idea. But anytime we go looking into claims of actual proof of aliens, we find the same characteristics we are finding here. I am not impressed that he found a couple other scientists to back him up, even a whole team wouldn't impress me. What I need is independent replication and review but the scientific community as a whole. That is the same standard we apply to any other body of knowledge.
> 
> They may discuss openly that they have evidence, but details are charged for. I am not the one saying he isn't 'seeking pedestrian answers', he is. He blatantly stated "until someone can prove otherwise, I have to work on the assumption that these implants are of alien origin." Someone meaning someone else... he is content to assume they are alien. That is NOT science.
> 
> I held my opinion until I did some research. What I found was no proof, shady dealings, and no transparency. What I found was a man making mistakes because he doesn't understand how the scientific method works, or why we have it in the first place. What I found was the typical tricks and mistakes often made with paranormal claims. I found information that, for obvious reasons, does not pass peer review when examined by actual scientists, even though it was first presented in 1996.


Until proven otherwise, we shall all accept as a fact that Heisenberg is an agent of an evil alien race posting here to throw us all off of the aliens trail using his sinister logic!


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## The Ruiner (Dec 27, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> What I was pointing out is his lack of scientific merit. He may be a perfectly pleasant person to have lunch with, I have no idea. But anytime we go looking into claims of actual proof of aliens, we find the same characteristics we are finding here. I am not impressed that he found a couple other scientists to back him up, even a whole team wouldn't impress me. What I need is independent replication and review but the scientific community as a whole. That is the same standard we apply to any other body of knowledge.
> 
> They may discuss openly that they have evidence, but details are charged for. I am not the one saying he isn't 'seeking pedestrian answers', he is. He blatantly stated "until someone can prove otherwise, I have to work on the assumption that these implants are of alien origin." Someone meaning someone else... he is content to assume they are alien. That is NOT science.
> 
> I held my opinion until I did some research. What I found was no proof, shady dealings, and no transparency. What I found was a man making mistakes because he doesn't understand how the scientific method works, or why we have it in the first place. What I found was the typical tricks and mistakes often made with paranormal claims. I found information that, for obvious reasons, does not pass peer review when examined by actual scientists, even though it was first presented in 1996.


 
When the scientific community wont take the time to properly examine the findings and essentially allow his work to be published you are demanding he find a way out of his catch-22. If they are so easily discredited then why isnt there anything out there showing such? His lab reports are available, any scientist that had the notion to debunk what he has could easily obtain them for themselves and do so, but no one has...Why? How come that since he is actually trying to put his work out on an even playing field (get published in a scholarly, peer-reviewed journal) means to you that he is not pursuing the scientific method? Someone could have taken his lab analysis of the objects and found out what they are already, especially since they have been available since 1996. And, if they are so afraid of damaging their reputations by publishing him in their journals, why haven't they actually taken the time to convincingly and conclusively debunk him?

You speak of tricks, mistakes, shady dealings, and no transparency...and with what proof? What has been presented to you? 

He has the objects, he has witnesses, he has the analysis and results, what else are you looking for? For him to freely give up the ghost on what could very well be one the greatest discoveries ever made would completely foolish.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 27, 2010)

So the scientific community is involved in a conspiracy to ignore one of the most important discoveries of all time? As I said, the burden of proof falls to the person making the claim. It is not up to skeptics to disprove his claims, it's up to him. Disproving his own claim should be first on his list of priorities. 

He has the objects, which only he and his associates seem to think are extraordinary. He has witnesses... anecdotal evidence amounts to nothing in science. (and for good reason) He has the analysis and results? Apparently that analysis was flawed, which is why it doesn't pass peer review. Again, this is the same standard we hold to any other field of research.



> How come that since he is actually trying to put his work out on an even playing field (get published in a scholarly, peer-reviewed journal) means to you that he is not pursuing the scientific method?


 Peer review and the scientific method are two different things. The scientific method was designed to help us avoid mistakes and trust results. Peer review was designed not only to weed out the quacks, but to make sure those lone scientists with strange, but valid, ideas are not ignored. Hes been submitting findings since 1996, and in that time no one but his team has ever seen anything of interest here. What makes me think he doesn't understand the scientific method is his statement that, his default stance is alien implants unless someone proves him wrong. 

This subject has all the ear-marks of pseudoscience. It quacks like a duck because it is a duck.


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## mindphuk (Dec 27, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> Well, considering that he works with other scientists (Bob Koontz, Steve Colbern, some others) and has had a lab analysis done by *Los Alamos Labratory* whose findings leaned towards the materials being E.T. in origin I would say he has put it out there enough.


 Yet no one has seen these reports. Los Alamos hasn't released any findings.


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## The Ruiner (Dec 27, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> Yet no one has seen these reports. Los Alamos hasn't released any findings.


Los Alamos couldnt release private data...


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## The Ruiner (Dec 27, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> So the scientific community is involved in a conspiracy to ignore one of the most important discoveries of all time? As I said, the burden of proof falls to the person making the claim. It is not up to skeptics to disprove his claims, it's up to him. Disproving his own claim should be first on his list of priorities.
> 
> He has the objects, which only he and his associates seem to think are extraordinary. He has witnesses... anecdotal evidence amounts to nothing in science. (and for good reason) He has the analysis and results? Apparently that analysis was flawed, which is why it doesn't pass peer review. Again, this is the same standard we hold to any other field of research.
> 
> ...


You want him to disprove his own claim, and yet you are asserting that it doesnt hold up under peer review? (which you are still YET to produce). Obviously, that's a conflict...solution: release the hounds on him, put everything he has under a microscope, give him the limelight...if they can knock it down so easily I dont understand why it hasnt happened. You are taking the reluctance of the scientific community as an out.

Just because he has not been given the fair chance doesnt mean that he doesnt have something significant.

Again, you have nothing to discredit him other than an absence of fair examination, something that he is actually seeking.


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## guy incognito (Dec 27, 2010)

So wtf are these implants made out of? It's "E.T. in origin"? What element is that exactly?


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## mindphuk (Dec 27, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> You want him to disprove his own claim, and yet you are asserting that it doesnt hold up under peer review? (which you are still YET to produce). Obviously, that's a conflict...solution: release the hounds on him, put everything he has under a microscope, give him the limelight...if they can knock it down so easily I dont understand why it hasnt happened. You are taking the reluctance of the scientific community as an out.
> 
> Just because he has not been given the fair chance doesnt mean that he doesnt have something significant.
> 
> Again, you have nothing to discredit him other than an absence of fair examination, something that he is actually seeking.


Sorry no. He has had plenty of time, over 15 years, to have his results verified and release the findings that would probably win him the Nobel Prize. Instead, he runs a website that charges people to see the 'evidence' and run around the UFO conferences charging for his speaking appearances. If he had ANY legitimate samples of extraterrestrial origin, he would be the most celebrated scientist on the planet.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 28, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> So wtf are these implants made out of? It's "E.T. in origin"? What element is that exactly?


Well I haven't read his book or come across any published analysis, but according to skeptic and even a creationist website, the implants which have been tested are biological, and quite common. Some implants cause everyone in the room to grow nausous and weak, some appear to be part mechanical and part biological. When these particular samples were sent for analysis, they disappeared! Of course the explination was (I dont know if Leir himself said this) that the aliens came and took the implants back. This qualifies as special pleading so we have yet another ear-mark of pseudoscience.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 28, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> Sorry no. He has had plenty of time, over 15 years, to have his results verified and release the findings that would probably win him the Nobel Prize. Instead, he runs a website that charges people to see the 'evidence' and run around the UFO conferences charging for his speaking appearances. If he had ANY legitimate samples of extraterrestrial origin, he would be the most celebrated scientist on the planet.


Great point, and don't forget the JREF million dollar challenge. If money was his aim, and he had real evidence, freely submitting it would be the way to go.



> Again, you have nothing to discredit him other than an absence of fair examination, something that he is actually seeking.


Fair examination is NOT peer review. Disproving his own claim is the goal of any good scientist and happens before peer review. When a scientist exhausts all efforts to disprove his own claim, he then turns it over to the community as a way to say, I can't falsify this, can you? I don't understand how you see this as conflict. My proof that he has failed peer review is that, he submitted in 1996 and nothing has came of it. I think the 'knock-down' you say didn't happen, happened so mundanely and routinely that you didn't notice it.


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## mindphuk (Dec 28, 2010)

If he had any actual empirical evidence, he should be submitting papers to refereed journals submitting to the rest of the world. The Los Alamos lab would have scientists that would be co-authors, because this is how it is done. Scientists don't try to keep their findings secret, they announce it to the world and let it be judged on its own merits. The scientific community is very harsh and critical of scientists that hold press conferences detailing a papers making broad pronouncements without first having been scrutinized by his or her peers, i.e the scientists in that specific discipline(s). If he truly has found something, then he's doing everyone a disservice by withholding his findings. The Ruiner should be cursing rather than praising him for keeping mankind in the dark about such an incredible discovery. So he's either an ass or a conman, and I certainly don't find him credible.


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## rhino1111 (Dec 28, 2010)

tardis said:


> Me personally, I believe that our creator is the singularity we all were befroe the bing bang. in otherwords everything in this universe is the creator split into all of these separate things.... I also know that no matter what i believe, just like everyone else i'm wrong, but we humans are hardwired to beleive this stuff so I better get a belief that fits in into science best!


yess our creator is the singularity. Reality is like a computer generated hologram in which the characters it creates are programmed to believe it is real.

Reality is a game of illusion, delusion, perception and deception.

Reality is about the evolution of consciousness in the alchemy of time.

Reality is about learning.

Reality is consciousness or programmed illusion. It is virtual, perceived through conscious awareness. We exist in a biogenetic experiment to experience emotion through the construct of linear time. All and everything is created by geometric design following the patterns of sacred geometry. Reality appears to move in synchronized linear fashion creating the illusion of time, also known as the loops/cycles of time, wheel of karma, or the alchemy wheel.

Reality began with a tone (horns, cones, harmonics, soul notes) and spiraling light (consciousness) which create ongoing and endless grids in which souls virtually experience. Grids have frequencies to which souls attach for that experience. Souls enter one or more grids in which they experience simultaneously

Reality is never the same. Like the flow of the collective unconsciousness it is forever in motion creating new patterns of experience. Consciousness spirals like a slinky, mirroring the movement, or evolution, of DNA. The higher your consciousness moves up the slinky, the faster the vibrational frequency - the faster you think, create, understand higher holographic archetypes of reality, and increase your manifestation in physical reality.

Your thoughts/consciousness begin at the top and spiral down to the physical realms which are so slow moving - you forget the nature of reality - that which is above. Now as we approach the end of the reality experiment, everything moves into higher frequency until it ceases to exist from the physical, returning to light and total consciousness.

Indigenous people have always understood that reality is an illusion or dream from which we will awaken.

Prophecies throughout time bring the same message about this being the end of the cycles of time evolving into something more - something non-physical - the return to light.

You see it all around you as the grids that maintain our physical connection are collapsing. Along with this we are witnessing the collapse of economic, political, social, and religious systems. Natural disasters are accelerating exponentially allowing souls to understand everything is changing. We are running out of Time, that which holds the illusion in place.

We are light beings (consciousness from a creational source) having a physical experience, evolving back to our natural state.

This reality program is about to end/evolve. Some people link this with 2012 - a metaphor for the return to consciousness. You can't put an exact date on it, if time is an illusion.

Reality in everyday usage means "everything that exists". The term "Reality", in its widest sense, includes everything that is, whether it is observable, accessible or understandable by science, philosophy, theology or any other system of analysis. Reality in this sense may include both being and nothingness, whereas existence is often restricted to being.


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## tardis (Dec 28, 2010)

The Ruiner said:


> You want him to disprove his own claim, and yet you are asserting that it doesnt hold up under peer review? (which you are still YET to produce). Obviously, that's a conflict...solution: release the hounds on him, put everything he has under a microscope, give him the limelight...if they can knock it down so easily I dont understand why it hasnt happened. You are taking the reluctance of the scientific community as an out.
> 
> Just because he has not been given the fair chance doesnt mean that he doesnt have something significant.
> 
> Again, you have nothing to discredit him other than an absence of fair examination, something that he is actually seeking.


I'm not trying to offend, but Dr. Leir is a podiatrist, a foot doctor, not a scientist of elements... I"m not saying he's not a doctor he is, but his area of study doesn't seem to parallel his alien studies, in fact his job would get in way.


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## tardis (Dec 28, 2010)

rhino1111 said:


> yess our creator is the singularity. Reality is like a computer generated hologram in which the characters it creates are programmed to believe it is real.
> 
> Reality is a game of illusion, delusion, perception and deception.
> 
> ...


If you look close enough you see that reality is pixalated.

Also, if you look at things on a quantum level you see that space and time hold no relevancy for the building blocks that made us.


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## Hayduke (Dec 28, 2010)

rhino1111 said:


> yess our creator is the singularity. Reality is like a computer generated hologram in which the characters it creates are programmed to believe it is real.
> 
> Reality is a game of illusion, delusion, perception and deception.
> 
> ...


I bet you get mobbed by young girls with puppy dog eyes when you talk like this...


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## rhino1111 (Dec 28, 2010)

space and time have no relevancy to the Source which we originate from. the Singularity. The Source is beyond Space-Time and Time-Space. yet it is part of Time-Space Space-Time, or should i say Time-Space Space-Time is a part of it. The Source is what imprints digital codes for the brain (which is just an electromagnetic machine) to interpret and experience. .it is beyond everything and all, yet part of it. it creates our experience, we create our experience since we all originate from the singularity. 

The source isnt confined by patterns of sacred geometry which create the physical illusion. It originates outside the patterns, on the highest level of conciousness, it can experience all simultanously, with full awareness. we are bound in the Illusion to raise our conciousness through the Alchemy of Time. Once you raise your vibrational frequency to a high enough level, gathered enough knowledge and experience for the divine mind, you can begin your journey back to the creator and away from the illusion of the physical reality.


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## Perfextionist420 (Dec 28, 2010)

I once met a man who claimed he experienced god, he had been in a surfing accident and almost drowned. He had flat lined on the beach for a 1:52 before being revived. The experience he shared with me was that he was under the water after the third wave had crashed on him with the undertow pulling him down and looking up at the sun coming down through the water he felt like he was slipping away. He said that he experienced the tunnel of light effect and that there were various flashing stages coming at him very quickly until he emerged into what he called a golden plane of light. He said he felt he was a being made of light and that he was fully conscious and aware, he had no sense of being dead, he struggled to explain the concept of being alive but not limited a physical manifestation or body. He was aware of himself as a being of light encompassed by a larger being of light that he perceived as what we would understand to be god.

He claims to have had a communication with the being that was like what we would understand as telepathic and in this communication he had simple questions, 

he claimed to be surrounded by a feeling of pure peace and joy and so the first question he asked is "what do i have to do to stay?" and the being replied "i have never told my children when to come or go" 

so the second question he asks is "then how may i serve?" and the being replies by asking "what is it that brings you joy?" and he said he was expecting some kind of duty or task but instead the being simply wanted him to do whatever it was that brought him happiness.

and so he asked "but there must be something i can do to earn this?" and the being replied "how can you earn that which is given freely and unconditionally with love?"

then he said he felt something like a hook inside pulling him and the sound of rushing water and he was on his back on the beach coughing up water



quite an interesting guy, he seemed very at peace with his existence


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## Heisenberg (Dec 28, 2010)

tardis said:


> If you look close enough you see that reality is pixalated.
> 
> Also, if you look at things on a quantum level you see that space and time hold no relevancy for the building blocks that made us.


I can almost hear Morgan Freemans voice when you say this.


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## tardis (Dec 28, 2010)

Hayduke said:


> I bet you get mobbed by young girls with puppy dog eyes when you talk like this...


He gets more play then that playa Hawkings in his pimp chair. 

Steven Jay Gould was the biggest playa of all, he had ho's all around him at all times. http://www.theonion.com/articles/stephen-jay-gould-speaks-out-against-science-papar,266/


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## tardis (Dec 28, 2010)

Perfextionist420 said:


> I once met a man who claimed he experienced god, he had been in a surfing accident and almost drowned. He had flat lined on the beach for a 1:52 before being revived. The experience he shared with me was that he was under the water after the third wave had crashed on him with the undertow pulling him down and looking up at the sun coming down through the water he felt like he was slipping away. He said that he experienced the tunnel of light effect and that there were various flashing stages coming at him very quickly until he emerged into what he called a golden plane of light. He said he felt he was a being made of light and that he was fully conscious and aware, he had no sense of being dead, he struggled to explain the concept of being alive but not limited a physical manifestation or body. He was aware of himself as a being of light encompassed by a larger being of light that he perceived as what we would understand to be god.
> 
> He claims to have had a communication with the being that was like what we would understand as telepathic and in this communication he had simple questions,
> 
> ...


I had a very similar experience once during a near death experience. left my body and went somewhere with no up or down. had telepathic communication with everything around me. seeing, speaking, hearing were all the exact same thing. I saw beings which I can describe in various different ways, for example while a dark bearded man in blue robes on a white horse approached, it was also a blue triangle getting larger, and was also just a ball, all at the same time. And I also saw a circling halo like spinning thing above me which was once part of me but was then separate and was the go between between myself and the beings of this spiritual realm. I also spoke, listened, saw in all directions at once and had similar conversations with such beings. I saw every moment of my life all at once and realize this must be what life passing before your eyes is.

This is what is called a DMT trip, or life passing before your eyes. It is a chemical reaction in the brain which happens upon death. 

I have also seen Derren Brown do magic tricks on stage, and my eyes could have sworn what he did with those cards were supernatural.... but at the same time I know the card trick wasn't a changing of physical reality outside of its rules, but rather a slip of the hand which the human brain misinterprets.

Do i beleive that the triangle/bearded man on a horse/shiny sphere judged my soul as holy and light, or is that how my brain dealt with the influx of dmt into my brain upon nearing death.

for the record i've never done the drug dmt, not counting my near death experience and brains release of these chemicals which every brain produces.


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## mindphuk (Dec 28, 2010)

tardis said:


> I have also seen Derren Brown do magic tricks on stage, and my eyes could have sworn what he did with those cards were supernatural.... but at the same time I know the card trick wasn't a changing of physical reality outside of its rules, but rather a slip of the hand which the human brain misinterprets.


 Wow, I'm surprised to see a Derren Brown reference from someone outside the UK, especially referencing his early magic work before his more popular NLP/persuasion explanations for his methods. I'm a big fan of his but most people in the US would probably have said Criss Angel.


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## tardis (Dec 28, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> Wow, I'm surprised to see a Derren Brown reference from someone outside the UK, especially referencing his early magic work before his more popular NLP/persuasion explanations for his methods. I'm a big fan of his but most people in the US would probably have said Criss Angel.


LOL Chris Angel is a magician, Derren Brown is a student of the human perception. 
Ever notice that my avatar is Naboo from The Mighty Boosh, and my name is a Dr. Who Reference. I'm a big fan of the BBC. When its good its fantastic, although admitedly when its bad it truely does suck. I'm one of the only people I know who loves the media in the UK.


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## mindphuk (Dec 28, 2010)

tardis said:


> LOL Chris Angel is a magician, Derren Brown is a student of the human perception.
> Ever notice that my avatar is Naboo from The Mighty Boosh, and my name is a Dr. Who Reference. I'm a big fan of the BBC. When its good its fantastic, although admitedly when its bad it truely does suck. I'm one of the only people I know who loves the media in the UK.


 I caught the Dr. Who spaceship reference but have never seen the Mighty Boosh. 

Let me tell you that ALL good magicians are familiar with human perception. Many basic tenets of misdirection are based in human psychology. Many of the best magic and mentalism tricks let the spectator fool themselves, often because we prey on certain assumptions that people make. Derren merely gave his false explanation a little more credibility by moving it from the realm of ESP and other supernatural mental powers to NLP and psychology. Most of the psychological explanations of how he does his tricks are bunk, they are themselves misdirecting from the true methods of trickery and deception. The ingenious thing about it is that there are a handful of demonstrations that rely almost entirely on psychology, so when they work, he can point to that and expose the 'secret' making it more credible that other tricks use similar methods. 

BTW, since I got Netflix streaming, I've been catching up on old Dr. Who episodes. How great is the internet!!!


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## tardis (Dec 28, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> I caught the Dr. Who spaceship reference but have never seen the Mighty Boosh.
> 
> Let me tell you that ALL good magicians are familiar with human perception. Many basic tenets of misdirection are based in human psychology. Many of the best magic and mentalism tricks let the spectator fool themselves, often because we prey on certain assumptions that people make. Derren merely gave his false explanation a little more credibility by moving it from the realm of ESP and other supernatural mental powers to NLP and psychology. Most of the psychological explanations of how he does his tricks are bunk, they are themselves misdirecting from the true methods of trickery and deception. The ingenious thing about it is that there are a handful of demonstrations that rely almost entirely on psychology, so when they work, he can point to that and expose the 'secret' making it more credible that other tricks use similar methods.
> 
> BTW, since I got Netflix streaming, I've been catching up on old Dr. Who episodes. How great is the internet!!!


Darren Brown is a genius who entertains much more than any mere magician could.

Yeah i love the internet and i've caught up on tons of doctor who history through it. If you like comedy check out the Mighty Boosh.

BTW, as for the psychology refrence RIP the show Big Brother UK. I'll probly never hear what came of Perfect Pete now.


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## mindphuk (Dec 29, 2010)

tardis said:


> Darren Brown is a genius who entertains much more than any mere magician could.


I'm not sure what you mean by 'mere magician,' except to say that you are right, that many magicians do not have the charisma and are not as entertaining as Derren. However, you are wrong to think that his demonstrations are anything beyond what a magician does. Have you ever heard of Joseph Dunninger? How about Chan Canasta, David Berglas or Maurice Fogel, all from the UK? More contemporary performers that do what Derren does - Alain Nu, Bob Cassidy, Ted Karmilovich, Anton Zellman and Craig Karges. 

Have you ever heard of Banachek? How about Marc Salem? 

[video]http://wejew.com/media/1180/Marc_Salem_60_Minutes/[/video]


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## Heisenberg (Dec 29, 2010)

Banachek is brilliant, although his most interesting tricks are performed by other people. He was also involved in the project alpha which is a hilarious but interesting read if you're not familiar. I shall have to check out the other names you mentioned, I haven't heard of most.

Jamy Ian Swiss is an example of someone who in my opinion is great at doing tricks, working the audience, ect but just isn't all that likable for some reason. I do enjoy his Honest Liar podcast though.


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## tardis (Dec 29, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by 'mere magician,' except to say that you are right, that many magicians do not have the charisma and are not as entertaining as Derren. However, you are wrong to think that his demonstrations are anything beyond what a magician does. Have you ever heard of Joseph Dunninger? How about Chan Canasta, David Berglas or Maurice Fogel, all from the UK? More contemporary performers that do what Derren does - Alain Nu, Bob Cassidy, Ted Karmilovich, Anton Zellman and Craig Karges.
> 
> Have you ever heard of Banachek? How about Marc Salem?
> 
> [video]http://wejew.com/media/1180/Marc_Salem_60_Minutes/[/video]


I have to check these guys out!!! Thanks for the references! what I mean is Darren Brown is like a magician, only more clever. compliment on Darren not a dis on magicians.


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## brownbearclan (Dec 29, 2010)

tardis said:


> I have faith that Ronald McDonald made God. That he manifests thru McDonalds. If you don't have faith in that like I do then you are just simply unable to see the truth, you are blind. Open your heart to Ronald McDonald and your soul will live forever! You see, Ronald McDonald made God, who made creation, who made scientific theory who made evolution. Don't you see it all goes back to Ronald McDonald, have faith or you'll burn in taco hell forever.


This is where the thread should have ended lol. WIN! =D


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## mindphuk (Dec 29, 2010)

tardis said:


> I have to check these guys out!!! Thanks for the references! what I mean is Darren Brown is like a magician, only more clever. compliment on Darren not a dis on magicians.


No, I understand. I'm a fan of Derren too. The only thing I'm saying is that he is not _like _a magician, he _is _a magician. He is clever only in that he has come up with interesting explanations of how he does things. Much of his cleverness can be traced to Andy Nyman, clever in his own right. The only difference is that his tricks appear to replicate mental powers rather than juggling cards and coins. I've been doing magic since I was 8. I've been doing mentalism for about 6 years. I'm not arguing with you, I agree Derren is brilliant. What I do want to do is show that he is not unique and he learned many tricks from other magicians.


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## rhino1111 (Dec 29, 2010)

tardis said:


> This is what is called a DMT trip, or life passing before your eyes. It is a chemical reaction in the brain which happens upon death.


DMT is actually released from your Pineal Gland (3rd Eye Chakra) everynight when you go to bed. it is a drug used to get the body into a trans, so you can unconciouslly astral project. (sleep) this plane is different then the astral plane, its called the dream plane. when you tap in conciously you are in the Astral Plane where amazing things are possible. 

when you tap into your pineal gland you can release this dmt while concious, this is called Astral projection.

Ive done some astral projection, my one friend has done alot. the things you can experience are amazing.


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## StonedPony (Dec 29, 2010)

I was talking with my son and a few of his friends here at my house............well we were blazed a bit. So I thought I would bring up DRAGONS.........not to get into it to much but every where in the world there are stories about dragons............One they are serpent like and 2 they fly and have talons........MY thought on this is kinda like you say Heisneberg.....we are hard wired......way back when man first started to get around.........snakes could kill so they were afraid........Eagles Fly and are preditors with Talons......so put this together for thousands of years and it gets sort of twist and we are hard wired to fear snakes and Eagles and poof they got combined and we have TONS of stories world wide about dragons but not one has been found...........am I on the right track or did I misunderstand the thread and my thoughts on dragons are just junk.....shrug...just my 2 cents


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## mindphuk (Dec 29, 2010)

Astral projection is bullshit.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 29, 2010)

StonedPony said:


> I was talking with my son and a few of his friends here at my house............well we were blazed a bit. So I thought I would bring up DRAGONS.........not to get into it to much but every where in the world there are stories about dragons............One they are serpent like and 2 they fly and have talons........MY thought on this is kinda like you say Heisneberg.....we are hard wired......way back when man first started to get around.........snakes could kill so they were afraid........Eagles Fly and are preditors with Talons......so put this together for thousands of years and it gets sort of twist and we are hard wired to fear snakes and Eagles and poof they got combined and we have TONS of stories world wide about dragons but not one has been found...........am I on the right track or did I misunderstand the thread and my thoughts on dragons are just junk.....shrug...just my 2 cents


You have the right idea. Dragons were probably a combination of mistakes of perception and people's creativity. Dinosaur bones were probably a pretty scary thing to find back then. When we are faced with the unknown, our minds often fill in the blanks with danger. Old maps would say "here be dragons" on unexplored territory. Dragons are just one of the mythical creatures that show up in different cultures at different times. Think about unicorns and centuars; it isn't hard to imagine someone seeing a horse by a tree and mistaking a branch for a horn, or seeing a man riding a horse from a distance and mistaking it for one entity.


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## researchkitty (Dec 29, 2010)

God was invented to explain the unknown. Its the typical "designer" or "randomness" question that spiritual people state the universe was designed by a god, and scientists think the universe was created out of nothing and is pure random (which it is).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

Watch that, then you understand a very, very, very limited amout of the knowledge to understand the universe.

I havent seen post hoc ergo proctor hoc mentioned since it was in a West Wing episode.

I think most people believe in God or go to church because they feel they fit in there, and it sounds right, and all the other church people do it so it must be OK. Kinda like the KKK, the Nazis, and the Tea Party. 

Whatever 'god' is, if at all, we would be unwise to think that in our lifetimes we would understand the true answers. If god DOES exist, "he" would have made the world so that the people in it had to believe, not see him. If God doesnt exist, we wouldnt see him anyway................

Churches are a great example of moral beliefs generally OK for society. Past that, bunch of weirdos praying to a man in the sky that doesnt exist.


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## tardis (Dec 29, 2010)

StonedPony said:


> I was talking with my son and a few of his friends here at my house............well we were blazed a bit. So I thought I would bring up DRAGONS.........not to get into it to much but every where in the world there are stories about dragons............One they are serpent like and 2 they fly and have talons........MY thought on this is kinda like you say Heisneberg.....we are hard wired......way back when man first started to get around.........snakes could kill so they were afraid........Eagles Fly and are preditors with Talons......so put this together for thousands of years and it gets sort of twist and we are hard wired to fear snakes and Eagles and poof they got combined and we have TONS of stories world wide about dragons but not one has been found...........am I on the right track or did I misunderstand the thread and my thoughts on dragons are just junk.....shrug...just my 2 cents


I agree. We are prewired to ideas that allowed survival (or rather didn't encourage death before procreation) due to evolution. One could say this came from a prehuman animals memory of dinosaurs, but who knows, whatever this universal perception is in connection to dragons, it must have existed before the races adapted after leaving africa. Remember, our genetic lines all travel back to the very begining of primal soup, so there is a lot of different things happening in all modern living things.


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## tardis (Dec 29, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> You have the right idea. Dragons were probably a combination of mistakes of perception and people's creativity. Dinosaur bones were probably a pretty scary thing to find back then. When we are faced with the unknown, our minds often fill in the blanks with danger. Old maps would say "here be dragons" on unexplored territory. Dragons are just one of the mythical creatures that show up in different cultures at different times. Think about unicorns and centuars; it isn't hard to imagine someone seeing a horse by a tree and mistaking a branch for a horn, or seeing a man riding a horse from a distance and mistaking it for one entity.


Or someone trying to explain what a rhinosaurus was like after seeing one.


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## tardis (Dec 29, 2010)

researchkitty said:


> God was invented to explain the unknown. Its the typical "designer" or "randomness" question that spiritual people state the universe was designed by a god, and scientists think the universe was created out of nothing and is pure random (which it is).
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo
> 
> ...


and past people fighting to ensure other people don't have the right to choose what to watch, ingest, or discuss because rules are enforced to protect their "souls"


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## researchkitty (Dec 29, 2010)

rhino1111 said:


> yess our creator is the singularity. Reality is like a computer generated hologram in which the characters it creates are programmed to believe it is real.
> 
> Reality is a game of illusion, delusion, perception and deception.
> 
> ...


I dont resort to attacks on opinions, but your "opinions" are pretty far from everything that has been observed scientifically.

Reality is what you cant get out of. Everything else is the illusion. Elaborate? This is reality. You know it because we're in it and you dont know anything before that.

A "singularity" isnt where "god" is, a singularity is simply an instance where the laws of the universe break down. It's where E doesnt equal mc2. Since we dont know what happens when you go through the point of no return, the singularity, we cant be resolute on the science inside of the singularity.

The big bang was *not* a singularity. It was the explosion of infinitely hot and infinite mass matter. A black hole has a singularity, however if you're a physics pro like I am, you'd know that quarks can escape black holes because matter in a quark doesnt exist in a single state, it can exist in two places at once.

Save your wikipedia re-pastes for a philosophical discussion, that particular one has no science bearing in it whatsoever.

What does all this "god" and "no god" and black hole and universe and designer vs randomness mean? That's how you know I'm a science pro, because the answer is "I dont know".

Time isnt an illusion, by the way, its just a forward dimension that while you stay where you are, time goes forward. Its called spacetime because its 4 dimensions (X, Y, Z and Time to put it in the simplest of manners). You can travel back in time, you can travel forward in time, we just dont have the capabilities to travel around an infinitely long cosmic string to go forward, or travel near the speed of light without our bodies exploding or using all of the energy of the a few of our (small) suns.

If this thread was about the theory of relativity / special relativity then I'd go on for hours...............


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## researchkitty (Dec 29, 2010)

tardis said:


> and past people fighting to ensure other people don't have the right to choose what to watch, ingest, or discuss because rules are enforced to protect their "souls"


Yep.  If "God" truly exists, why are there TWENTY TWO RELIGIONS with over 500,000 "members"? ( http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html )

Sure, all 22 of them dont include these "new minor" religions, and all 22 of them surely have beliefs that are co-mingled between them, but some are VERY different than others!

"HEAVEN" forbid that your religion be the "wrong" one......... lol


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## Heisenberg (Dec 29, 2010)

> I havent seen post hoc ergo proctor hoc mentioned since it was in a West Wing episode.


HAHA, I remember that episode of West Wing. Just watched the series last winter. I remember being disapointed that only Toby knew what the president meant. IMO no one should be able to finish high school/college without being aware of post hoc fallacies. Think our current president is familiar? Do you think in reality most of the presidents staff would know what he meant? I sure hope so.


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## Hypnos (Dec 29, 2010)

Science to me is pretty reliable in its core while at the same time its best described
as a little kid with field glasses that can only see a range of 300 meters (while in last century it was only 200 meters)

I have to admit that i also have silly believs.
Believs to me are more like seeing different posibilities.
So if anyone asks me: Do you belive in god? I´m gonna answer him: yes to 50% and no to 50%, so i believe in the possibility of both.


I also like to read weird stuff because its fun and it has some possibility to it like these ET messages that sound like some good science fiction book.

I´m gonna give u a sample 


"Selamat Ja! We return during this holiday season with much to tell you. Around you, your reality is changing! Gaia is busy preparing her surface realms for a great transformation. These preparations are still fairly subtle; however, you are now entering a time when these changes are to become much more conspicuous to you. Areas noted for major earthquakes are to become active and minor tremors are already making themselves felt. Volcanoes, both on land and seabed, are also beginning to 'rev up'. Our Earth scientists have been monitoring this increase in seismic activity on all continents. These developments constitute the next bout of warnings from Mother Earth and dovetail with your own quickening toward full consciousness. The old reality, which for millennia has been your residential 'cocoon', has served its purpose. Many dowsers have noticed that the magnetic lines they use to examine your world are changing in strength or position. These phenomena are related to Gaia's shifting gravity fields.

These magnetic shifts are playing havoc with Earth's electrical fields. In order to ready herself for full consciousness, Gaia is deliberately adapting to the immense amounts of data coming from the Sun, her fellow planets, and the galactic core. It is important to see all this as a living organism in transition. All 3-D realities regularly capture a certain amount of this data stream, and when an entity expands its consciousness the amount of data captured increases extraordinarily. Further, this data needs to be processed differently. To this end your reality is adapting its grid lines to better cope with the heightened influx and is starting to become a monopolar entity. Such change is taking place throughout your solar system, which allows your scientists to observe at close quarters how zero-point energy and matter operate in the galaxy. These observations astound them and demonstrate clearly just how out of phase their scientific paradigm is! It has prompted them to search more diligently for a new operating model, one that can better encompass these recurring phenomena. 



Paralleling the many unusual events taking place in your solar system, the galactic core is also going through similar changes. She is changing her base frequency, triggering a series of great energy waves, which flow from the core to her outer spirals, and transforming how the galaxy holds her together. New galactic grid lines are forming, which indicates that a new type of gravity wave is being born. This energy is giving life to new graviton particles that slightly interfere with our basic propulsion setups. Hence, we have had to adjust our ships' energy-gathering devises and have changed the distribution of our vast fleet throughout your solar system. We have also altered the density of the motherships in the inner ring around your planet, necessitating the creation of a special Möbius strip-like corridor to permit the swift entrance of our ships into the Earth's atmosphere when the moment for first contact arrives. We need to adjust this travel corridor each day, which demonstrates just how rapidly your solar system is changing. 



These considerable changes match the progress each of you is making toward the point where first contact is definitely required. This is why the first steps preparing you for this goal needs to be completed. We have notified our Earth allies of this and have emphasized that the present reality no longer reflects who you are becoming. The dark cabal, too, knows what is happening and is busy wondering how the status quo can be prolonged. There exists in your reality a failsafe point beyond which a different timeline can be imposed. This point has recently been passed, which means that there is now only one scenario permitted, and that is first contact and all that that entails. We have brought in a few good workers who are determined to propel things toward first contact at a much swifter pace. These Beings are accelerating their abilities to the max and intend to get the initial steps done very quickly. Meanwhile, your governmental and economic systems are poised for a complete collapse. 



The key to what is happening is to understand the effect of overwhelming international debt on a nearly broken economic system. This is the goal that the dark cabalists were setting up in the first few years of the 21st century. Unfortunately for them, the system imploded before they could extract the quantity of money from the system that they had promised to the members of its many working boards. As a result, illegal actions by the US Federal Reserve and the legislatures of several nations permitted the extraction of most of the remaining monies from late 2008 to mid-2009. Our Earth allies alerted many governments about the truth of what was happening but were unable to prevent a series of European and Asian nations from approaching collapse in 2009-2010. They were able to recover some of these funds, and these can be used as proof of the illegal activities, giving us additional ammunition for bringing down the dark cabal. 



The various nations of your world have secretly come together to oppose the hegemony of the dark cabal and to end its millennia-long stranglehold on the globe. Predictably, the dominant agent of this cabal, the US corporate state, used its army of covert intelligence operatives to put pressure on anyone involved in that activity, which created a very sticky milieu for the Earth allies and their new friends to operate in. Meanwhile, several major global trusts were reaching the point of pay-out and a number of parallel scenarios were also underway, the intent of which was to reach the point for our direct intervention around the end of the Gregorian year of 2010 and early 2011. These scenarios are beginning to interlink, and we have come to agreements with the major white-Light, secret societies of your globe on what is to be done next 



. Your world needs to be deeply purged of what has come to be the commonplace and widely accepted prime beliefs of your reality. These erroneous mindsets are fostered by the fiction that you are alone and unique in the universe. Once your true history and the truth of your origins on other worlds are revealed, all these notions will go up in smoke. Those in your society who are willing and able to do so need to take on this huge crisis of perception and get the people of Gaia back on track. Then you can be introduced to us. Our mission is to complete what the many white-Light societies plan to do. Our counselors have waited for almost two decades to set you free and graciously introduce you to the amazing, sovereign Being that each of you has hidden within you. 



The first item on the agenda of this first contact mission is to move you toward a more ethical form of governance combined with an economy based on abundance. The aim is to begin to fully honor you as sovereign Beings, and this implies a complete reappraisal of how you treat one another. Each of you is a precious creation of the Creator, endowed with equal and unalienable rights and delivered into this world with certain life-long goals. You are then equipped with unique talents that can be used to help others, as well as yourself, to reach those life goals. Galactic societies take these talents to their full potential. Normally, societies have reached this point before being eligible for first contact. You are to go beyond this point, all the way to full consciousness. You have a glorious future ahead, as a key member of the Galactic Federation of Light! 



 Today, we continued our discussion with you about first contact. Your reality is now collapsing and a new one is manifesting in its place. Then we can safely arrive and move you quite quickly into full consciousness. Wonders you cannot even imagine can then be opened to you! Know, dear Ones, in your Heart of Hearts that the countless Supply and never-ending Prosperity of Heaven are indeed Yours! So Be It! Selamat Gajun! Selamat Ja! (Sirian for Be One! and Be in Joy!)"


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## Heisenberg (Dec 29, 2010)

Hrmm too much nonsense to read entirely. I got through half of it. I love it when scientists are baffled or astounded. Sometimes they are shocked and occasionally puzzled.



> It has prompted them to search more diligently for a new operating model, one that can better encompass these recurring phenomena


 This statement was pulled from someone ass pertaining to the subject, but changing it's mind is something science does almost daily and is part of the routine. The idea is being stated here as if it's a discredit.

I understand being interested in the weird. I still listen to ghost and paranormal podcasts. I have every episode of ghost hunters, paranormal state, monster quest, ect. I find it entertaining even if there's nothing to it. Monster Quest liked to sensationalize, but for the most part kept a scientific approach. Ghost hunters is borderline insulting, it's just boringly stupid. Paranormal state is great for a laugh.


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## Hypnos (Dec 29, 2010)

Right maybe its nonsense, interesting would be what science thinks about the solar system right now (is there a change? if yes how do they describe it?)

But lets stick to the facts because its not only believ in all these ET stuff, there are many things going on that are actually experienceable and have been experienced by some individuals.

1. A lot of Ex militaries have come forward the past years talking mostly about their experiences with UFO sightings and sometimes about ETs
2. There are a lot of UFO Videos on the net. Some maybe clearly fake while others look decent. 
Examples:
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/63129/New_Zealand_Releases_UFO_X_Files_Videos__amp__Papers/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq0g0IFSl3o&feature=related
3. Many people have seen UFOs for themselves.
4. Crop circles and reports of "light balls" hovering over them.

Thats why i say theres some possibility to it that is founded.


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## researchkitty (Dec 29, 2010)

Hypnos said:


> Right maybe its nonsense, interesting would be what science thinks about the solar system right now (is there a change? if yes how do they describe it?)
> 
> But lets stick to the facts because its not only believ in all these ET stuff, there are many things going on that are actually experienceable and have been experienced by some individuals.
> 
> ...


Most UFO's are just Venus. There's that for what science thinks about the solar system or UFO's. 

Aliens would have to follow the same laws of physics as any humans here on earth. Certainly we assume more technologically advanced, but still e=mc2


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## Heisenberg (Dec 29, 2010)

Hypnos said:


> Right maybe its nonsense, interesting would be what science thinks about the solar system right now (is there a change? if yes how do they describe it?)
> 
> But lets stick to the facts because its not only believ in all these ET stuff, there are many things going on that are actually experienceable and have been experienced by some individuals.
> 
> ...


Well, each of these are separate topics deserving their own thread. Anecdotal evidence is the lowest and least trustworthy form. That is because people make mistakes like the ones I am trying to outline. They see, remember and interpret things wrong, and then tend to embellish. I don't know the exact number, but almost all UFO investigations reveal an explainable source, with just a very very small percent remaining unknown. In these cases the most likely explanation is mistakes or hoax. As a result we can only use anecdotal information to start an investigation and not to draw any conclusions at all. So that takes care of 1 and 3.

As for crop circles, those are occasionally explained by animals that, for whatever reason, decided to walk in a circle for hours and beat down the crop. Sometimes fungus is found to have grown in a ring and killed the crop. But those types of circles are crude. Anytime a crop circle is even the least bit complicated, it's been done by a human. Always. We know this because...the humans have come forward and admitted it. Hoaxers have been caught, ect. In addition it has been demonstrated that all of the designs could be made by normal means within the same time frames. When we are presented with such a mundane explanation, it makes it unnecessary to go looking for a paranormal one. The balls of light simply are not there, an embellishment by story tellers. The videos showing the balls of light were first proven fakes, and then admitted to be fake.

If your interested there is a much more lengthy explanation of crop circles here. One of the things the article points out is.



> "_The eyewitnesses I've (_Colin Andrews)_ interviewed in many countries over the years have all agreed with me on one point: when they claim to have seen circles form, they appear in 10 to 15 seconds."
> 
> _In any picture you see of Colin Andrews visiting a crop circle, he's loaded with camera equipment and so is everyone else in the picture. In fact, it's hard to find any picture of crop circle investigators where everyone in the shot is not holding a camera or binoculars or something, finger on the trigger. So my question to Colin Andrews would be, "Did you not ask these crop circle investigators who witnessed the formations why, in every single case, they failed to produce a single photograph or frame of videotape showing this wonderful creation?" If I were Colin Andrews, these investigators are not those whose testimonials I would flaunt to the world. Instead I would tell them they screwed up, and probably even accuse them of trying to hoax me. How can they spend all day and night camped out on the hilltop, finger on the video camera trigger, witness a crop circle forming, and produce only a lengthy list of verbal reports, and no video? Inexcusable for a conscientious researcher. The first thing I would fault Colin Andrews for would be requiring only the lowest of standards for the information he accepts as evidence.


You may also enjoy this article, which is about true mysteries and strange things in California. One that I liked is,


> Also at an undisclosed location in Death Valley is a small puddle against the side of a rock, apparently. Look and you'll see a species of desert pupfish found nowhere else on Earth. Stick your arm in and you'll feel no bottom. Slide your whole body in and you'll find that it's the tiny opening to a vast underground water system from which at least three divers have never returned. Swim all the way through and you'll find that it connects to Montezuma Well, a spring in Arizona that's so far away it's ridiculous.


Lastly, if you ever want to research astronomical claims to see if they are true, or at least recognized, try the site Bad Astronomy.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 29, 2010)

Sorry, forgot to watch the videos before.

The first vid seems laughable. That could be anything... I mean, really...

Second one has some interesting footage. But at first it shows a vapor trail... I see those every day. Next is a colorful blob. Then we see some birds flying in formation... However the last bit is really interesting! Awe inspiring even if you take it at face value. Upon doing some research I see that the those last two segments of footage were taken by the same guy, Arturo Robles Gil. Turns out Mr. Arturo Robles Gil has been thoroughly debunked and caught red handed faking photographs by the UFO community itself. There is no shortage of documents showing his fraud via google.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe UFO sightings are worthy of investigation.


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## researchkitty (Dec 29, 2010)

Just like the big comet shaped like an X was an alien spacecraft going the equivilant of a snails speed in outer space.


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## tardis (Dec 29, 2010)

researchkitty said:


> Just like the big comet shaped like an X was an alien spacecraft going the equivilant of a snails speed in outer space.


Old Alien Races, like old humans, drive slow....


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## Heisenberg (Dec 29, 2010)

tardis said:


> Old Alien Races, like old humans, drive slow....



Sounds just like the Doctor, David T. era.


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## mindphuk (Dec 29, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> Sounds just like the Doctor, David T. era.


 it's hard to get up to speed when the handbrake is engaged (that's why the tardis makes that sound)


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## guy incognito (Dec 30, 2010)

researchkitty said:


> I dont resort to attacks on opinions, but your "opinions" are pretty far from everything that has been observed scientifically.
> 
> Reality is what you cant get out of. Everything else is the illusion. Elaborate? This is reality. You know it because we're in it and you dont know anything before that.
> 
> ...


uh what? I think we have read different physics books. I don't think anything escapes the black hole either. Particle-Anti-particle pairs form outside the event horizon, and occasionally one particle "escapes" the black hole while the other crosses the event horizon dooming it to the singularity. This is hawking radiation and eventually leads to the evaporation of the black hole in accordance with the equation e=mc^2. 

I don't think your description of everything else is accurate either.


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## researchkitty (Dec 30, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> uh what? I think we have read different physics books. I don't think anything escapes the black hole either. Particle-Anti-particle pairs form outside the event horizon, and occasionally one particle "escapes" the black hole while the other crosses the event horizon dooming it to the singularity. This is hawking radiation and eventually leads to the evaporation of the black hole in accordance with the equation e=mc^2.
> 
> I don't think your description of everything else is accurate either.


I think I've read the physics books, and you skipped em. 

It isnt doomed into a singularity, matter isnt destroyed there, its just made infinitely dense and infinitely hot. Its still the same matter. Its just really, really small. Just when you think its really small, it gets smaller and hotter.

With respect to anything else I've said, dont say "I dont think its accurate", state what IS accurate, else mine stands. Beat the Theory of Kitty!  I'm happy to be proven wrong. I update my physics/astronomy thinking all the time as new methods develop. I would have laughed if you said a particle escaped a black hole a few years ago.

---------
Nothing that falls into a black hole can come back out again -- at least not in its original form. But a black hole may lose some of its mass. Quantum theory says that "virtual pairs" of particles sometimes wink into existence from the fabric of space itself. These particles quickly cancel each other out and vanish. But if a pair of particles appear just outside a black hole's horizon, one may fall inside, never to make it outside again. If the one on the outside doesn't fall through the horizon, then the particles can't cancel each other out. In essence, that "steals" a little bit of mass from a black hole. Over countless billions of billions of billions of years, the mass loss could become substantial enough to cause the black hole to vaporize. Material would come out, but not in its original form -- only as energy and subatomic particles. This energy is known as Hawking radiation in honor of Stephen Hawking, the physicist who first described it.
----------

So yea, there's a cut and paste.

You say nothing escapes a black hole.

I say that because of Hawking Radiation, and the fact that the particle escape leads to the black holes evaporation (and subsuquent redelivery of all the mass inside of the black hole to its parent universe, however extremely dense!) that EVERYTHING escapes a black hole!

Lets also not forget that there's billions of black holes in the air around us and in our bodies and everywhere. They are called Micro Black Holes ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole ) and they are part of every day life. Not many people know we live in a world of 11 dimensions, not just spacetime's 4.

So anyway, if you wanna prove me wrong, cool, just actually do it, dont talk about doing it.  When you prove me wrong I learn and so does everyone else something new!


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## tardis (Dec 30, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> it's hard to get up to speed when the handbrake is engaged (that's why the tardis makes that sound)


Yeah with River. That was so hillarious!


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## Heisenberg (Dec 30, 2010)

Hypnos said:


> Right maybe its nonsense, interesting would be what science thinks about the solar system right now (is there a change? if yes how do they describe it?)
> 
> But lets stick to the facts because its not only believ in all these ET stuff, there are many things going on that are actually experienceable and have been experienced by some individuals.
> 
> ...


This reminds me of how I once felt. I used to watch the show Sightings and think to myself, how can these naive scientists ignore all these paranormal reports. I mean sure there are crazies out there, and hoaxers, but some of these claims and phenomena are persistent. Some of them transcend culture, era, upbringing, social class, ect. How can that number of people be reporting strange stuff for such a long time if there is nothing to it?

The answer I found was that all people around the globe make the same mistakes. Simple as that. A lot of it comes from poor education, we can't all know everything. It comes from a misunderstanding of how science, nature and the human brain works, and an ignorance of how to correctly evaluate evidence. Once you become familiar with the fallacies that lead to these beliefs, it become second nature to see through them with a little examination. This is the trait I used to see in scientists as smug.


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## guy incognito (Dec 30, 2010)

researchkitty said:


> I think I've read the physics books, and you skipped em.
> 
> It isnt doomed into a singularity, matter isnt destroyed there, its just made infinitely dense and infinitely hot. Its still the same matter. Its just really, really small. Just when you think its really small, it gets smaller and hotter.
> 
> ...



A particle entering a black hole is doomed in the sense that it will never again cross the event horizon, not that it will be destroyed. The conservation of mass and energy still apply, which is why I think you are wrong in stating that the laws of physics break down. Some laws do break down, but not those nor e=mc^2. Usually we use relativity to explain and predict massive objects, and quantum mechanics to explain objects on a quantum level, and each works remarkably well in their respective domains. A black hole is both massive and infinitely small, so which theory do we use since they are incompatible to use simultaneously? Therein lies our laws of physics breaking down.

I say that nothing escapes a black hole, then go on to explain hawking radiation in a nearly identical fashion to the cut and paste you did. I'm not sure of your point. It almost seems like you are disagreeing with me, then posting the exact thing I explained. 



researchkitty said:


> The big bang was *not* a singularity. It was the explosion of infinitely hot and infinite mass matter.


I don't understand this either. As far as I know the universe was a singularity before the big bang. It also did not have infinite mass. It contained all the mass (in the equivalent form of energy) in the universe, which is finite.


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## guy incognito (Dec 30, 2010)

Also wasn't the idea of hawking radiation from the 70's? I remember reading about it years and years ago.


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## Hypnos (Dec 30, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> The answer I found was that all people around the globe make the same mistakes. Simple as that. A lot of it comes from poor education, we can't all know everything. It comes from a misunderstanding of how science, nature and the human brain works, and an ignorance of how to correctly evaluate evidence. Once you become familiar with the fallacies that lead to these beliefs, it become second nature to see through them with a little examination. This is the trait I used to see in scientists as smug.


Yep mistakes are there...


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## researchkitty (Dec 30, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> A particle entering a black hole is doomed in the sense that it will never again cross the event horizon, not that it will be destroyed. The conservation of mass and energy still apply, which is why I think you are wrong in stating that the laws of physics break down. Some laws do break down, but not those nor e=mc^2. Usually we use relativity to explain and predict massive objects, and quantum mechanics to explain objects on a quantum level, and each works remarkably well in their respective domains. A black hole is both massive and infinitely small, so which theory do we use since they are incompatible to use simultaneously? Therein lies our laws of physics breaking down.
> 
> I say that nothing escapes a black hole, then go on to explain hawking radiation in a nearly identical fashion to the cut and paste you did. I'm not sure of your point. It almost seems like you are disagreeing with me, then posting the exact thing I explained.
> 
> ...


The Universe was a singularity before it was created simply as a result of time not being a factor. Time didnt exist before our Universe.

I think the problem I see with your posts is that you keep assuming we live in one Universe. We dont. Our universe divides infinitely and their divisions divide infinitely as well all the time every time. It's called a Multiverse.

Hawking Radiation has been around since the 1970's, that's when Stephen's theory was published and revised ever since then all the time. The information paradox created by his radiation, indicates that if matter enters a black hole, and cant escape, then eventually the entire Universe would be in a black hole and we would have no existence. That's the Paradox, we know that cant happen because we're still here.

He solved that Paradox in 2004, quietly, and it didnt make too much press. Most people dont keep on the cutting edge of science, just what they learn or hear on TV, which is why most people probably dont even know we live in a Multiverse (M-Theory) 11 dimension life.

The solution was that as the universe cools, black holes emit more of their heat in Hawking radiation, and eventually open up to reveal again the "information" that they originally sucked in when they formed. Ergo, no information is lost, and our existence is saved. 

( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/hawking-answers-his-own-paradox-of-the-black-holes-553209.html ) is one of the few news articles about it from 2004. Solving the problem still means nothing, it is what it is. However, knowing how black holes work in the best detail possible will help our efforts with CERN and the Large Hadron Collider.

Of course, Stephen Hawking could be 100% wrong, just as Newtons thoughts on gravity were cute but widely inaccurate. Things change every day its hard to keep up with stuff.


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## st235 (Dec 30, 2010)

I may just be a simple person, but in my mind some people are just stupid.


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## mindphuk (Dec 30, 2010)

researchkitty said:


> The Universe was a singularity before it was created simply as a result of time not being a factor. Time didnt exist before our Universe.
> 
> I think the problem I see with your posts is that you keep assuming we live in one Universe. We dont. Our universe divides infinitely and their divisions divide infinitely as well all the time every time. It's called a Multiverse.
> 
> ...


Not only is the multiverse hypothesis not yet supported by actual evidence and not considered scientific consensus, your characterization of the information paradox is incorrect and has nothing to do with 'the whole universe becoming a black hole.' It has to do with the idea that it violates causality and if it can do that, then all of reality is in question. Also, it wasn't solved by Hawking but basically conceded and admitted that information is not lost forever. Leonard Susskind has come up with one method of resolving the paradox using string theory called the holographic universe.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 30, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> Leonard Susskind has come up with one method of resolving the paradox using string theory called the holographic universe.



Isn't it true that he stole the idea from Sheldon Cooper?


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## mindphuk (Dec 30, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> Isn't it true that he stole the idea from Sheldon Cooper?


IDK. I dumped cable and rely now on Hulu and Netflix. Unfortunately CBS has decided that they no longer wish to have their shows on Hulu AND they no longer have complete episodes on their website. It appears that CBS, like the RIAA and MPAA, are having a hard time dealing with the way consumers prefer to get their entertainment. [/rant]


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## researchkitty (Dec 30, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> IDK. I dumped cable and rely now on Hulu and Netflix. Unfortunately CBS has decided that they no longer wish to have their shows on Hulu AND they no longer have complete episodes on their website. It appears that CBS, like the RIAA and MPAA, are having a hard time dealing with the way consumers prefer to get their entertainment. [/rant]


Does thepiratebay.org not work for you or something?


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## mindphuk (Dec 30, 2010)

researchkitty said:


> Does thepiratebay.org not work for you or something?


No, I just like watching tv shows on my tv. I guess if CBS doesn't care that instead of watching on their own site or Hulu, I watch pirated versions without their commercials, then I guess I don't care either. Yet with all of the content available to me now, the extra steps require to download and watch torrents isn't appealing to this lazy stoner.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 30, 2010)

lol so you got the reference? 

I have 14Tb now of downloaded material. Haven't seen a commercial in about 6 years aside from when I am at friends. Actually tried signing up with direct TV last week for my x-roomies new place and it couldn't have been a more confusing, more frustrating, more fruitless experience. They finally came to install and wanted an extra installation fee because the dish has to be in the yard, so he sent them packing. The local cable company just raised basic cable by $15 while at the same time dropped ABC and Fox. A lot of cable companies are demanding a 2 year contract now, at least around here. My roomie just took the money he would have spent on installation and bought a 2tb external, problem solved. isohunt.com is a much more comprehensive place to get torrents BTW. Pirate bay is a last resort for me, but they do occasionally have things you can't find elsewhere.

I simply have a PC dedicated to storage and playback. The video card has HDMI out and my TV has HDMI in, so everything I watch is on a TV rather than the PC. The only problem with having a huge on-demand library is that you don't always know what you feel like watching. Sometimes it's nice to be presented with options instead.

Wow this thread has gone way off topic. I suppose that's because most smart people already knew about confirmation bias, and those who didn't, don't care.


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## mindphuk (Dec 30, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> lol so you got the reference?
> 
> I have 14Tb now of downloaded material. Haven't seen a commercial in about 6 years aside from when I am at friends. Actually tried signing up with direct TV last week for my x-roomies new place and it couldn't have been a more confusing, more frustrating, more fruitless experience. They finally came to install and wanted an extra installation fee because the dish has to be in the yard, so he sent them packing. The local cable company just raised basic cable by $15 while at the same time dropped ABC and Fox. A lot of cable companies are demanding a 2 year contract now, at least around here. My roomie just took the money he would have spent on installation and bought a 2tb external, problem solved. isohunt.com is a much more comprehensive place to get torrents BTW. Pirate bay is a last resort for me, but they do occasionally have things you can't find elsewhere.
> 
> ...


I bought a media server and planned on using it to stream downloads to my PS3. Now I'm having problems downloading torrents and issues with port forwarding. As soon as that's resolved, I should be okay. Now I just need to install tversity or something like it so I can get live sports streamed.


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## researchkitty (Dec 30, 2010)

Laptop HDMI --> TV. Done. I have a laptop just for it, cost $400 new with the HDMI port right on it. Or, two months cable bill.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 30, 2010)

researchkitty said:


> Laptop HDMI --> TV. Done. I have a laptop just for it, cost $400 new with the HDMI port right on it. Or, two months cable bill.


 Almost any new TV bought in the last couple years comes with a VGA port as well, so no need to buy a separate video card if you don't already have one. HDMI is a superior option though.

I have the media PC conencted to a small flat monitor as well that sits on my coffee table. I use it as a sort of kiosk to navigate and do computer stuff while my TV acts only as a display for video.


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## brownbearclan (Dec 30, 2010)

tardis said:


> I have faith that Ronald McDonald made God. That he manifests thru McDonalds. If you don't have faith in that like I do then you are just simply unable to see the truth, you are blind. Open your heart to Ronald McDonald and your soul will live forever! You see, Ronald McDonald made God, who made creation, who made scientific theory who made evolution. Don't you see it all goes back to Ronald McDonald, have faith or you'll burn in taco hell forever.


I think I'm going to have a shrine made with this on it. =)


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## guy incognito (Dec 31, 2010)

What mindphuk said.

Also thepiratebay is riddled with drive by hijacking. I will never use thepiratebay again.


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## tardis (Dec 31, 2010)

brownbearclan said:


> I think I'm going to have a shrine made with this on it. =)


Equal Absurdity is the only way you can get through sometimes. Offer equally absurd beliefs in a different way and either they figure otu how you see them, or they react to you as they deserve to be reacted to.

by equally absurd I mean equally logical idea that they demand me to buy into suddenly.


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## researchkitty (Dec 31, 2010)

I've used thepiratebay.org for at least FIVE YEARS. Top 100 movies, download all of them. Top 100 ebooks, get every collection! Top 10 tv shows dont like them too much. 

What are all of you talking about viruses and such on thepiratebay.org? That's what COMMENTS are for, that's what VIRUS SCANNERS are for, and that's why you download .avi/.wmv/.mkv and not a bunch of rar files for a movie. Anyone with filename knowledge can download safely.

I've downloaded 2 or 3 trojans from TPB. Microsoft Security Essentials catches each one. And its free!  Every time it was for a newer release of an Adobe product (Master Suite, CS5, etc...) and the torrent always had comments and negative ratings each time.

So................. what else did the MPAA scare you into believing with torrents?

1.) utorrent.com (Download & Install)
2.) Download/install Microsoft Security Essentials, set to auto update
3.) thepiratebay.org and download anything you want safely!


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## guy incognito (Dec 31, 2010)

researchkitty said:


> I've used thepiratebay.org for at least FIVE YEARS. Top 100 movies, download all of them. Top 100 ebooks, get every collection! Top 10 tv shows dont like them too much.
> 
> What are all of you talking about viruses and such on thepiratebay.org? That's what COMMENTS are for, that's what VIRUS SCANNERS are for, and that's why you download .avi/.wmv/.mkv and not a bunch of rar files for a movie. Anyone with filename knowledge can download safely.
> 
> ...



The torrents are safe, it's the site itself that is unsafe. I have been infected multiple times simply from visiting the site, even with anti-virus software running and using firefox with noscript installed. It is the only site that has personally infected me that I can ever remember, and it happened on multiple occasions to me, and multiple ocassions to friends and coworkers. Usually I blame people getting viruses on their own ignorance and not understanding how to protect themselves, but not in the cases with thepiratebay. They host hijacking software and even preventative measures did not stop it from infecting me. I am sure others have been infected, and they may not have even known it was tpb. The first 2 times I had a variety of things going on on my computer so I couldn't say with certainty that it was tpb, but the 3rd time it was for sure, even through AVG, spybot, and noscript on firefox. 

There are plenty of other places to get your torrents that do not use advertisers with malicious intent. I use demonoid.me and isohunt.com.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 31, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> The torrents are safe, it's the site itself that is unsafe. I have been infected multiple times simply from visiting the site, even with anti-virus software running and using firefox with noscript installed. It is the only site that has personally infected me that I can ever remember, and it happened on multiple occasions to me, and multiple ocassions to friends and coworkers. Usually I blame people getting viruses on their own ignorance and not understanding how to protect themselves, but not in the cases with thepiratebay. They host hijacking software and even preventative measures did not stop it from infecting me. I am sure others have been infected, and they may not have even known it was tpb. The first 2 times I had a variety of things going on on my computer so I couldn't say with certainty that it was tpb, but the 3rd time it was for sure, even through AVG, spybot, and noscript on firefox.
> 
> There are plenty of other places to get your torrents that do not use advertisers with malicious intent. I use demonoid.me and isohunt.com.


As usual, Guy and Kitty are both correct, just not on the same page.  I love the PB as an organization and thier attitude, but the site itself is rather second rate. Too many dead torrents that still show seeds, dead trackers, ect and yea shady advertisers. I don't seem to have this problem with isohunt. I realize neither site controls the seeds or trackers, but isohunt seems to more accurately reflect a torrents true state.


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## researchkitty (Dec 31, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> The torrents are safe, it's the site itself that is unsafe. I have been infected multiple times simply from visiting the site, even with anti-virus software running and using firefox with noscript installed. It is the only site that has personally infected me that I can ever remember, and it happened on multiple occasions to me, and multiple ocassions to friends and coworkers. Usually I blame people getting viruses on their own ignorance and not understanding how to protect themselves, but not in the cases with thepiratebay. They host hijacking software and even preventative measures did not stop it from infecting me. I am sure others have been infected, and they may not have even known it was tpb. The first 2 times I had a variety of things going on on my computer so I couldn't say with certainty that it was tpb, but the 3rd time it was for sure, even through AVG, spybot, and noscript on firefox.
> 
> There are plenty of other places to get your torrents that do not use advertisers with malicious intent. I use demonoid.me and isohunt.com.


There is no such thing as a torrent website that you go and "automatically" get infected. Thepiratebay.org is #86 on the Top 100 visited websites globally. It cant be that popular and "automatically infect" people. That's ridiculous.

Demonoid and isohunt are simply torrent sites, just like thepiratebay.org.

You're comparing ice cream to ice cream.

Now your objection isnt the torrents itself, but the website on which to download them from. I cant help you with your logic there man!


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## Heisenberg (Dec 31, 2010)

http://www.searchcowboys.com/google/414 (2009)



> TorrentFreak talked to Peter Sunde to find out what was going on. He said at the time they didn't have any idea what was causing the problems. The idea is that it's caused by ads from third parties.
> 
> Two pages out of 699 tested resulted in malicious software being downloaded and installed with 68 scripts trying to access the computer.
> 
> It seems as if the problem has been solved now.


http://www.thinq.co.uk/2010/9/13/pirate-bay-cracked-spread-malware/ (2010)



> Visitors to the site who aren't running a background virus scanner or who don't use browsers that check Google's list of 'bad' sites are likely to have been exposed to a variety of nasty malware, none of which was directly hosted on The Pirate Bay but instead held on the cracked advertising server.
> 
> While the site is currently still serving infected adverts, a spokesman for The Pirate Bay has confirmed that all issues should be resolved within the next few hours


Looks like the problem comes and goes. I see similar articles dated for different months starting in 09.


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## Perfextionist420 (Dec 31, 2010)

demonoid.com


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## Hypnos (Dec 31, 2010)

I present you a free registration to Revolution TT Tracker (Holiday Special) : *https://www.revolutiontt.net/ohohoh.php?xmas=60bb39825e48f6341cc67075c90f877*


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## researchkitty (Dec 31, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> http://www.searchcowboys.com/google/414 (2009)
> 
> http://www.thinq.co.uk/2010/9/13/pirate-bay-cracked-spread-malware/ (2010)
> 
> Looks like the problem comes and goes. I see similar articles dated for different months starting in 09.


That's called browser exploits. Its not a trojan or a virus, while they could install one. NO WEBSITE is safe from them! You are just SINGLING OUT the #86 website on the Internet. It can happen to Yahoo, Google, Microsoft and Facebook if it can happen to thepiratebay.org.


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## guy incognito (Jan 1, 2011)

researchkitty said:


> That's called browser exploits. Its not a trojan or a virus, while they could install one. NO WEBSITE is safe from them! You are just SINGLING OUT the #86 website on the Internet. It can happen to Yahoo, Google, Microsoft and Facebook if it can happen to thepiratebay.org.


Browser exploits that hijack your browser and reduce functionality of the entire computer by not allowing you bring up task manager or any other administrative task that would help rid yourself of the problem. It ended up being easier to reformat my OS partition and reinstall xp. As far as I am concerned this is no less intrusive than any trojan or a virus; The only thing that could have been worse would be if it spread the infection to other computers which it did not. I don't use ie. I used firefox with noscript running and avg anti-virus and spybot s&d. It got through those preventative measures several times on a couple of my own computers, and several times on other peoples computers I know. 

It wasn't an isolated incident either, it happened many many times, all from tpb. Meanwhile none of the thousands of other websites I visited infected me even a single time. Other websites screen advertisers and keep malicious code out of their ads. I don't think it is worth the risk to use tpb when I can find everything I need on safer sites.


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