# Are there ANY Christians on RIU?



## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 19, 2012)

All I see is a bunch of God-bashing, monkey-metamorphisis, space alien, crazy-ass beliefs, on here, and being a minister of the Universal Life Church, I'm almost tempted to roll up shop and go elsewhere... Just wondering... Little bit of a check here.... I am tolerant of anyones beliefs, but there is a great in-tolerance of anything Christian I ever say when people talk about their far-fetched, man-made, dreamed up concoctions of science and sci-fi, and whatever... Whatever happenned to just believing that Christ died for our sins, and that God created everything, including cannabis, which is clearly pointed out, and spoken HIGHLY of many times in The Bible? Anyone? Seriously, anyone?


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## tyler.durden (Apr 19, 2012)

Of course there are christians on RIU, some of my favs are Eye Exaggerate, Hep, Oly and another new guy with a monkey as an avatar who I think is also christian. They are all intelligent and participate in good debates. We have no problem with their faith, because they do not present it as fact, merely their belief. Any claims posted as reality that cannot stand up to simple logic and scrutiny, or has no empirical evidence, does get bashed here and that's a beautiful thing. It indicates that we are making progress as a species. Belief without evidence is fine, but it won't be taken seriously in this sub-forum...


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## Winter Woman (Apr 19, 2012)

We are here. I'm just tired of the immaturity of the responses. 

It's hard to walk on faith. I've experienced some great things because of faith.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 19, 2012)

Glad to hear there's some other believers out there... Thought I was alone, again...


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## grnstarx (Apr 19, 2012)

right here comrade


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## NnthStTrls (Apr 19, 2012)

Fairly certain that if you're a Christian, AND you're on RIU, you're going to hell. . . . . . if you believe in Christianity. .... . . interesting. I've got no hate for you though. Just don't push it on me. Keep it green. Keep it happy.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Apr 19, 2012)

I see by the amount of post's you have you've been here a bit, so you know the heat one can get for their belief's.
You are correct in the bashing - there are a few members here that are rabid in their hatred of God or anything linked to religion and even mention of our Lord will bring on flames faster than Michael Jackson's fro gel.
One thing I have yet to see is anyone flaming a non-believer for their convictions.
Just my take, but in response, Yes - Christ is my savior.


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## tip top toker (Apr 19, 2012)

I have never in my life met a real Christian, let alone on RIU.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 19, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Of course there are christians on RIU, some of my favs are Eye Exaggerate, Hep, Oly and another new guy with a monkey as an avatar who I think is also christian. They are all intelligent and participate in good debates. We have no problem with their faith, because they do not present it as fact, merely their belief. Any claims posted as reality that cannot stand up to simple logic and scrutiny, or has no empirical evidence, does get bashed here and that's a beautiful thing. It indicates that we are making progress as a species. Belief without evidence is fine, but it won't be taken seriously in this sub-forum...


...thanks ty, you're good in my books too  I really like some of the talks on here.


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## tyler.durden (Apr 19, 2012)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> I see by the amount of post's you have you've been here a bit, so you know the heat one can get for their belief's.
> You are correct in the bashing - there are a few members here that are rabid in their hatred of God or anything linked to religion and even mention of our Lord will bring on flames faster than Michael Jackson's fro gel.
> *One thing I have yet to see is anyone flaming a non-believer for their convictions.*
> Just my take, but in response, Yes - Christ is my savior.


Really? Then you'll love this new guy, Chief Walkin Eagle. Here's two threads where he does nothing but flame us. Of course, he ends up looking like an idiot, but it doesn't slow him down...

https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/521683-something-should-taught-schools.html

https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/521755-its-not-real.html


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## jessy koons (Apr 19, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> All I see is a bunch of God-bashing, monkey-metamorphisis, space alien, crazy-ass beliefs, on here, and being a minister of the Universal Life Church, I'm almost tempted to roll up shop and go elsewhere... Just wondering... Little bit of a check here.... I am tolerant of anyones beliefs, but there is a great in-tolerance of anything Christian I ever say when people talk about their far-fetched, man-made, dreamed up concoctions of science and sci-fi, and whatever... Whatever happenned to just believing that Christ died for our sins, and that God created everything, including cannabis, which is clearly pointed out, and spoken HIGHLY of many times in The Bible? Anyone? Seriously, anyone?


I think other people would listen to you words if you didn't contradict yourself so thoroughly: " I am tolerant of anyones beliefs,...."
and then " All I see are a bunch of God-bashing, monkey-metamorphisis, space alien, crazy-ass beliefs, on here,...." What is your definition of 'tolerant', because I dona think it means what you think it means.


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## Winter Woman (Apr 19, 2012)

NnthStTrls said:


> Fairly certain that if you're a Christian, AND you're on RIU, you're going to hell. . . . . . if you believe in Christianity. .... . . interesting. I've got no hate for you though. Just don't push it on me. Keep it green. Keep it happy.



How does consuming herb make you destined for hell?


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 19, 2012)

Alrighty then... I dont push it on anyone guy... Im fairly certain that if u read the Bible, and go back to the Hebrew texts, u will see that using kaneh-bosm, or cannabis is not a sin, and wont land one in hell... But thanks for trying to guess where my soul will end up when I die... I aint got any hate for u either, I just think that if everyone can say their piece on my Lord and Saviour, then I am also entitled to say my piece back... Imo definately keep it green, and happy, and believe what I feel convicted to believe, and live my life by... I was just asking for MY fellow Christian pot-heads to answer my call, and I see I am not alone... Read up on the Universal Life Church, and The Bible and cannabis... Just sayin... Not pushin... I didn't make this stuff up...


NnthStTrls said:


> Fairly certain that if you're a Christian, AND you're on RIU, you're going to hell. . . . . . if you believe in Christianity. .... . . interesting. I've got no hate for you though. Just don't push it on me. Keep it green. Keep it happy.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 19, 2012)

It most certainly doesn't... I believe whole-heartedly, just as God told Moses to use it in the same Holy Annointing Oil (Exodus 30:22-33)that Christ Himself was annointed with later on, (i.e. The Annointed One), and the same thing God told Aaron to burn as a sweet insence to Him(Exodus 30:7-10) , and the same "plant of renown" that God speaks of in Ezekial 34:29-30, and in Genesis 1:11, 12, and 29, where God said He gave it to us, and said It Is Good- onto The Song of Soloman, 4:8-16, where King Soloman speaks of his gardens of kaneh-bosm, among other plants, and David talks about how God causes the herbs to grow to be used for the service of man, in Psalms 104:14, 15, and 32, and of the tree of life in Revalation 22:1-3, and MY personal mission statement, He gives us in Isiah 42:1-9- This cannot be a thing of evil, as long as one does not place it before Christ, as an idol and "abuse" it... It is to be used for our healing in every way, and I believe for the Christian who sees these things, that it makes God happy... Just saying what I believe in, with some references to go by, and I am not pushing this on anyone, in any way... Take it how u will... Peace...


Winter Woman said:


> How does consuming herb make you destined for hell?


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 19, 2012)

Mabye so, mabye so... Im not perfect, nor is everything I say perfect, in any way... I just see way more of these other idealogies than mine, and have been bashed about my beliefs, and so, if I have stepped on anyone's feet by what I have said, I apologize... Seriously... Don't let idiots like me cloud what u may come to see, and if I have contradicted myself, I didn't mean to do so...


jessy koons said:


> I think other people would listen to you words if you didn't contradict yourself so thoroughly: " I am tolerant of anyones beliefs,...."
> and then " All I see are a bunch of God-bashing, monkey-metamorphisis, space alien, crazy-ass beliefs, on here,...." What is your definition of 'tolerant', because I dona think it means what you think it means.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Apr 19, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Really? Then you'll love this new guy, Chief Walkin Eagle. Here's two threads where he does nothing but flame us. Of course, he ends up looking like an idiot, but it doesn't slow him down...
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/521683-something-should-taught-schools.html
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/521755-its-not-real.html


hahaha YES!


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 19, 2012)

I am very glad to hear this GreatwhiteNorth... I didn't mean to lash out at anyone, as I am a sinner, and fall way short of the Glory of God, and have to ask forgiveness of my actions like anyone else... I guess I messed up in my words, and shouldve put some more thought into it before I spoke... It only happenned because of the indignities I have felt from some of the hatred and disrespect some others have been very vocal about concerning our God...For this, I will seek forgiveness, as I hope I have not led anyone astray, or damaged the spreading of His Word and His love for all of us, believers, non-believers, and all... He loves us all... And I love everyone with all my heart, but like Him, I suppose I am a bit jealous and I can't just sit back and let my faith be stomped upon as if it were trash... Itz a hard thing to share with many people, and everyone will not agree, or ever come together, on this or anything else in life, for that matter... I just had to see if I had some Brothers and Sisters in Christ on here is all, really... Thank you all for standing up with me... As they say, "if u don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"... And, also to whoever it was who said God wouldnt get "Jebus" off of the cross- It was not the nails that held Him up there, but love... He had a choice, just as we all do, and He chose to become a perfect sacrifice for all of the world's transgressions, so that we might be saved... Surely, if everyone who speaks of their separate faiths can speak out, then I also can do so...


GreatwhiteNorth said:


> I see by the amount of post's you have you've been here a bit, so you know the heat one can get for their belief's.
> You are correct in the bashing - there are a few members here that are rabid in their hatred of God or anything linked to religion and even mention of our Lord will bring on flames faster than Michael Jackson's fro gel.
> One thing I have yet to see is anyone flaming a non-believer for their convictions.
> Just my take, but in response, Yes - Christ is my savior.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Apr 19, 2012)

I dont even know why these blind followers of limited scientific knowledge are in this forum, its like they think "what are these spiritual basket cases trying to pass as fact today? time to lay some all mighty science on these bitches and put them in their place"... its pathetic.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 19, 2012)

tip top toker said:


> I have never in my life met a real Christian, let alone on RIU.


Well, I do hope u r able to meet a REAL Christian one day... You'd be surprised where God plants us... He doesnt just want us to stay in Churches and not spread His Word... We have to get out there(yes, even on this website) and try to be fishers of men... May God bless you tip top...


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 19, 2012)

Yes, but we must also be aware of how our tounges can damage a would-be believer's vision of "what a Christian should be", so that they don't see one of us and hear our words, and think one way about God, when it isn't so... We have to be fishers of men, and use etiquite, and try to be as open-minded as we r open-armed with the spreading of our faith...


Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I dont even know why these blind followers of limited scientific knowledge are in this forum, its like they think "what are these spiritual basket cases trying to pass as fact today? time to lay some all mighty science on these bitches and put them in their place"... its pathetic.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Apr 19, 2012)

Im not Christian, I just think its good to acknowledge that theres a lot more to life than than this physical state, beautiful things that we cant possibly imagine.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 19, 2012)

Sure... It is... I certainly agree with you on that...


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## jessy koons (Apr 19, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I dont even know why these blind followers of limited scientific knowledge are in this forum, its like they think "what are these spiritual basket cases trying to pass as fact today? time to lay some all mighty science on these bitches and put them in their place"... its pathetic.


Mr. Eagle, your posts are dripping with venom and you imagine comments that don't exist. I am new here and having a blast let me tell you but I wonder why you feel like most other people here are antagonizing you. Please believe me when I tell you that I am a much, much bigger victim than you are. When I walk down the street people whom I have never met will hurtle insults at me and ask for my lunch money. Banks that I don't have any business with will call me up and tell me that I'm overdrawn. Women look at my crotch and burst out in giggles so don't act like you're the only person that nobody likes, please. If you wouldn't whine about being misunderstood so often maybe people would understand you better. Clearly your self esteem could use a boost. Interestingly enough I've noticed that the most intelligent, compassionate statements have not been found on your posts but on the posts of people looking to engage with you. You are loved Mr. Eagle, open your heart to power of rational discourse and let your pain drift away.


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## cannabineer (Apr 19, 2012)

jessy koons said:


> Mr. Eagle, your posts are dripping with venom and you imagine comments that don't exist. I am new here and having a blast let me tell you but I wonder why you feel like most other people here are antagonizing you. Please believe me when I tell you that I am a much, much bigger victim than you are. When I walk down the street people whom I have never met will hurtle insults at me and ask for my lunch money. Banks that I don't have any business with will call me up and tell me that I'm overdrawn. Women look at my crotch and burst out in giggles so don't act like you're the only person that nobody likes, please. If you wouldn't whine about being misunderstood so often maybe people would understand you better. Clearly your self esteem could use a boost. Interestingly enough I've noticed that the most intelligent, compassionate statements have not been found on your posts but on the posts of people looking to engage with you. You are loved Mr. Eagle, open your heart to power of rational discourse and let your pain drift away.


Four hundred quatloos on the newcomer! cn


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## jessy koons (Apr 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Four hundred quatloos on the newcomer! cn


Thank you Sir, I would like to double down with those 400 quatloos and see what is hidden behind door number 3 please.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Apr 19, 2012)

jessy koons said:


> Mr. Eagle, your posts are dripping with venom and you imagine comments that don't exist. I am new here and having a blast let me tell you but I wonder why you feel like most other people here are antagonizing you. Please believe me when I tell you that I am a much, much bigger victim than you are. When I walk down the street people whom I have never met will hurtle insults at me and ask for my lunch money. Banks that I don't have any business with will call me up and tell me that I'm overdrawn. Women look at my crotch and burst out in giggles so don't act like you're the only person that nobody likes, please. If you wouldn't whine about being misunderstood so often maybe people would understand you better. Clearly your self esteem could use a boost. Interestingly enough I've noticed that the most intelligent, compassionate statements have not been found on your posts but on the posts of people looking to engage with you. You are loved Mr. Eagle, open your heart to power of rational discourse and let your pain drift away.


Lol believe me sir, I dont feel like a victim, you can write a paragraph about a turd and make it sound compassionate and intelligent.. I dont believe that the my quote your responding to is wrong at all, they really do have no business here, and I believe that is the mindset they have when reading something that has to do with spirit, they are just itching for spiritualist to say "fact" or "real" so they can jump and say SCIENCE SAYS OTHERWISE!


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## researchkitty (Apr 19, 2012)

Universal Life Church minister, you are?

Anyone else want to be one? Why not? Its free and you can do it online.

http://www.themonastery.org/

If this is what the Christian faith has to do to keep their numbers up these days, you sure will be an alone believer soon enough! Most of the world has woken up, slowly but surely........


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Apr 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Four hundred quatloos on the newcomer! cn


Agreed, differences of opinion or belief need not get ugly.
No one wins or learns anything when your mind is closed in CQB.

And, may I have my change in Pa'anga please.


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## jessy koons (Apr 19, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Lol believe me sir, I dont feel like a victim, you can write a paragraph about a turd and make it sound compassionate and intelligent.. I dont believe that the my quote your responding to is wrong at all, they really do have no business here, and I believe that is the mindset they have when reading something that has to do with spirit, they are just itching for spiritualist to say "fact" or "real" so they can jump and say SCIENCE SAYS OTHERWISE!


*A paragraph about a turd. By Jessy Koons* *Part One*

A turd walked into a chat room and saw angry people all around. This was a friendly turd who had never done anything to hurt another turd or any other creatures for that matter and couldn't comprehend all of the bad feelings flying around. The turd asked one of the people there why every one was so mad at everyone else. The persons name was Chef Talkin' Beagle ( I changed the names so no one has to feel bad ) and he said that no one was supposed to be there except him and he wanted them all to leave so he could do all of the talking. That seemed reasonable to the turd so he suggested to the next person that he saw that they should leave and let Chef Beagle have the chat room to himself. This persons name was Jessy Koons and he was very handsome. He thought the turd's idea was a sound one so he spoke with all of the other people in the chat room and they agreed to leave right away and then left to form a softball team and drink lots of beer and lived happily ever after. So the Chef had the room mostly to himself from now on. In part two we will meet the folks that didn't join the softball team and stayed with the Chef.


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## silasraven (Apr 19, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> All I see is a bunch of God-bashing, monkey-metamorphisis, space alien, crazy-ass beliefs, on here, and being a minister of the Universal Life Church, I'm almost tempted to roll up shop and go elsewhere... Just wondering... Little bit of a check here.... I am tolerant of anyones beliefs, but there is a great in-tolerance of anything Christian I ever say when people talk about their far-fetched, man-made, dreamed up concoctions of science and sci-fi, and whatever... Whatever happenned to just believing that Christ died for our sins, and that God created everything, including cannabis, which is clearly pointed out, and spoken HIGHLY of many times in The Bible? Anyone? Seriously, anyone?


there it be me. non believers are taking over the world... hey you know what that means, rapture is soon to come! brothers and sisters we'll be going home soon!!!! im so stoked and very tired.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Apr 19, 2012)

silasraven said:


> there it be me. non believers are taking over the world... hey you know what that means, rapture is soon to come! brothers and sisters we'll be going home soon!!!! im so stoked and very tired.


Brother, you have had one hell of a hard row to hoe in life & deserve a rest.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 19, 2012)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> I see by the amount of post's you have you've been here a bit, so you know the heat one can get for their belief's.
> You are correct in the bashing - there are a few members here that are rabid in their hatred of God or anything linked to religion and even mention of our Lord *will bring on flames faster than Michael Jackson's fro gel*.
> One thing I have yet to see is anyone flaming a non-believer for their convictions.
> Just my take, but in response, Yes - Christ is my savior.


...niiiiiiice 

and

...niiiiiiice


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## Heisenberg (Apr 19, 2012)

Think of all the good things human beings will not do in this world today because they believe that their most pressing task is to build another church, or to enforce some ancient dietary practice, or to print volumes upon volumes of interpretations on the disordered thinking of ignorant men. How many hours of human labor will be devoured, today, by an imaginary God? - Sam Harris


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Apr 19, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Think of all the good things human beings will not do in this world today because they believe that their most pressing task is to build another church, or to enforce some ancient dietary practice, or to print volumes upon volumes of interpretations on the disordered thinking of ignorant men. How many hours of human labor will be devoured, today, by an imaginary God? - Sam Harris


Have fun being one with dirt, simpltin


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## jessy koons (Apr 19, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Have fun being one with dirt, simpltin


There you go again Mr. Eagle. Where's the love? Why the sarcasm? Who'd on first? When's dinner? What's this thing called love? Simpltin? Simpleton


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## Heisenberg (Apr 19, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Have fun being one with dirt, simpltin


Are you so concerned with insults that you have to deal them even when they make yourself look bad?

*sim·ple·ton*_n.
_A person who is felt to be deficient in judgment, good sense, or intelligence







​How much good sense does it take to open your mouth and demonstrate foolishness?


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 19, 2012)

...people can do whatever they want to do with their own time and money. The hours belong to them, as does the cash. I'd love to see the art of cathedral building made new. Anyone who has a problem with that does not understand architecture.

Good day


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 19, 2012)

This is what I chose to do to better find my nook... It isn't at all what the Christian faith has to do, or is doing to "keep our numbers up" though... Wow! I guess u guys won't ever take me seriously, or take me with tolerance and open arms, as a fellow-grower, just because of my faith... Thatz ok... I will stand alone all day long... I attend a non-denominational church, and am as norml as any1, Christian or not... Make fun all u want... It actually means something to me... Mabye not to everyone who does it, but it does to me... If being on RIU is what we have to do to keep the numbers of growers up, I suppose I could say to join up and be stomped on and made light of for your beliefs... Why is there even a forum for spirituality, when all it is is a lion's den for anyone who claims to be a Christian? I really don't get it... Thanks alot kitty...


researchkitty said:


> Universal Life Church minister, you are?
> 
> Anyone else want to be one? Why not? Its free and you can do it online.
> 
> ...


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Apr 19, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Are you so concerned with insults that you have to deal them even when they make yourself look bad?
> 
> *sim·ple·ton*_n.
> _A person who is felt to be deficient in judgment, good sense, or intelligence
> ...


Am I supposed to care how narrow minded atheists view me? ... Its like you have this code of conduct of science and maturity, maybe you should let some insults fly, could be a good stress relief, it would be healthy for the soul.... xD the soul


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 19, 2012)

I really do hope so! I can't understand the hatrid and antagonizing behind some of these posts... I can only pray for them...


silasraven said:


> there it be me. non believers are taking over the world... hey you know what that means, rapture is soon to come! brothers and sisters we'll be going home soon!!!! im so stoked and very tired.


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## cannabineer (Apr 19, 2012)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> Agreed, differences of opinion or belief need not get ugly.
> No one wins or learns anything when your mind is closed in CQB.
> 
> And, may I have my change in Pa'anga please.


Sorry but the Klingon Bank closed early.
(I looked up Pa'anga but imo it's cooler this way.) cn


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## Heisenberg (Apr 19, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...people can do whatever they want to do with their own time and money. The hours belong to them, as does the cash. I'd love to see the art of cathedral building made new. Anyone who has a problem with that does not understand architecture.
> 
> Good day


No one is campaigning to tell people what to do with their time and money. The comment simply asks you to think about the loss of potential due to senseless unsupported convictions. Much the same thing could be said about Bigfoot or cold fusion, but on a much, much smaller scale of course. While another cathedral may be desirable, is it the most pressing issues we face? Do you think it's possible that some people, if they were not convinced these senseless acts were divinely mandated, would work on something that would directly reduce suffering in the world? 

God is all the time needing money and begging from his neighbors, meanwhile he always has the nicest house on the block. I never see his electric getting shut off. - young Heisenberg


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## cannabineer (Apr 19, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> This is what I chose to do to better find my nook... It isn't at all what the Christian faith has to do, or is doing to "keep our numbers up" though... Wow! I guess u guys won't ever take me seriously, or take me with tolerance and open arms, as a fellow-grower, just because of my faith... Thatz ok... I will stand alone all day long... I attend a non-denominational church, and am as norml as any1, Christian or not... Make fun all u want... It actually means something to me... Mabye not to everyone who does it, but it does to me... If being on RIU is what we have to do to keep the numbers of growers up, I suppose I could say to join up and be stomped on and made light of for your beliefs... Why is there even a forum for spirituality, when all it is is a lion's den for anyone who claims to be a Christian? I really don't get it... Thanks alot kitty...


Fear not. While I am not a believer myself, I have no reason or inclination to show you inferior hospitality. cn


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## olylifter420 (Apr 19, 2012)

I dont get it, are you claiming to be god?

how things for you man? did you get accepted to college? If i remember correctly, that what you were going to do, if i am not mistaken.


either way, hope things go well for you...




Heisenberg said:


> No one is campaigning to tell people what to do with their time and money. The comment simply asks you to think about the loss of potential due to senseless unsupported convictions. Much the same thing could be said about Bigfoot or cold fusion, but on a much, much smaller scale of course. While another cathedral may be desirable, is it the most pressing issues we face? Do you think it's possible that some people, if they were not convinced these senseless acts were divinely mandated, would work on something that would directly reduce suffering in the world?
> 
> *God is all the time needing money and begging from his neighbors, meanwhile he always has the nicest house on the block. I never see his electric getting shut off. - young Heisenberg*


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## Heisenberg (Apr 19, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Am I supposed to care how narrow minded atheists view me? ... Its like you have this code of conduct of science and maturity, maybe you should let some insults fly, could be a good stress relief, it would be healthy for the soul.... xD the soul


Your comment suggest that you don't care what anyone's view of you is, as anyone reading it is open to the irony and error, not just atheists. Calling someone simple while failing to spell it correctly is a reflection of you, not the reader. Insulting someone while demonstrating that very insult yourself is stupid by any standard. 

And you obviously care what atheists think or else you wouldn't spend so much time whining about how you're not accepted here. You want to constantly be eating your cake yet still have it sitting on the table. You don't care enough about your own words to pay attention to them, yet you demand others do and then belittle them for it, unless they agree.

The faults you find in others are a reflection of the things you dislike about yourself.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Apr 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Fear not. While I am not a believer myself, I have no reason or inclination to show you inferior hospitality. cn


A very wise bear indeed.
~ replete with truth ~


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## Heisenberg (Apr 19, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> I dont get it, are you claiming to be god?
> 
> how things for you man? did you get accepted to college? If i remember correctly, that what you were going to do, if i am not mistaken.
> 
> ...


Nice to see you Oly. I hope your absence from the forums is because you have some good things going on in your life. The school thing should be happening in the fall.

My comment from young Heisenberg was just a comedic observation. I didn't always have an ultimate point back then.


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## olylifter420 (Apr 19, 2012)

Cool... glad you getting into school man... 

yeah, school has been hectic... im almost graduating so i cant really fumble much and plus i am hoping to apply to grad school or physical therapy school next summer so i cant really waste time anymore, and there was just too much hate going on around here... i realized it was not for me, so i gave some time to cool off... hopefully it did...





Heisenberg said:


> Nice to see you Oly. I hope your absence from the forums is because you have some good things going on in your life. The school thing should be happening in the fall.
> 
> My comment from young Heisenberg was just a comedic observation. I didn't always have an ultimate point back then.


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## grnstarx (Apr 20, 2012)

if you've met anyone who thinks Life and Love are sacred, anyone who thinks that the rulers of the Earth are actually our children(many parents' reason for getting up in the morning and putting any effort into anything) and not powerful adult men and women with fancy crowns, gowns, jewels, or stuffed suits, then you've met a true Christian. Christianity is a set of values and beliefs set in an esoteric message. There is a major complexity to it that defies some of the deepest intellects. There is also an extremely simplicity in it that just says be righteous in your actions and your experience deserves Heaven. that God is Everything Natural, and Jesus is the sacred Creative Force in the Universe, and the Devil is the Destructive Force in the Universe. Heaven, God, Jesus, and the Devil are the Christian language's reference to the forces of Nature, so they are present in every science, and every religion. The Bible is our Holy Book because it is our book of life. Book of life as in the experiences of Historical reference of humanity that teach values that we in our short time haven't experienced but still need to learn from. Many people don't understand, when they call us out as imperfect, or call us hypocrites. The whole point is that we will never bow down to a living man and call him "Lord" because our Lord in the physical flesh went to heaven centuries ago. The whole point is that we will never be perfect, or expect someone else to be perfect, because according to the Bible, there was only one perfect person - ever - and humanity fucked it up big time. Feel free to point out my flaws. If you want to say that my sins make me a hypocrite as a christian - Feel free. I never said I was perfect. Just trying to be the best I can with what i got. I never expect anyone else to be perfect either. We are just supposed to try our best. Reason being, because we are trying to make the best conditions possible for the return of the Lord. To make the best possible conditions for the return of the Creative Force. to make the best possible conditions for the Next Generation. It will then be their responsibility to take on the task to prepare again...and it goes on an infinite cycle....Its just a message to Nurture Love to the fullest extent. Feel free to point out any Christians who don't do this perfectly. I'll apologize on our behalf and remind you that not anyone living on Earth is perfect. There are planty of nations that will worship a living being in a position of royalty. Christianity safeguards against this. It is unfortunate there are christian cults out there, evangelists and their flocks. that isn't christanity, thats a foolish show of foolish people. Those groups don't last a century or two, but the message to nurture Love does. anything that isn't in the process of creating, will just die off without a trace. The point is to contribute to the sacred creative force which somehow, in this dimension is directly intertwined with this great thing called love. whether its an animal, human, plant, whatever it is.


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## ted bundy (Apr 20, 2012)

tip top toker said:


> I have never in my life met a real Christian, let alone on RIU.


Like!!!!!!


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## UncleBuck (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> All I see is a bunch of God-bashing, monkey-metamorphisis, space alien, crazy-ass beliefs, on here, and being a minister of the Universal Life Church, I'm almost tempted to roll up shop and go elsewhere... Just wondering... Little bit of a check here.... I am tolerant of anyones beliefs, but there is a great in-tolerance of anything Christian I ever say when people talk about their far-fetched, man-made, dreamed up concoctions of science and sci-fi, and whatever... Whatever happenned to just believing that Christ died for our sins, and that God created everything, including cannabis, which is clearly pointed out, and spoken HIGHLY of many times in The Bible? Anyone? Seriously, anyone?


the biological diversity we witness in humans today is impossible given two humans in the garden of eden 6k years ago.

this means that original sin is a myth, making the crucifixion of jesus a pointless exercise in futility, since original sin is completely and demonstrably impossible.

lol, u mad bro?


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## ted bundy (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> All I see is a bunch of God-bashing, monkey-metamorphisis, space alien, crazy-ass beliefs, on here, and being a minister of the Universal Life Church, I'm almost tempted to roll up shop and go elsewhere... Just wondering... Little bit of a check here.... I am tolerant of anyones beliefs, but there is a great in-tolerance of anything Christian I ever say when people talk about their far-fetched, man-made, dreamed up concoctions of science and sci-fi, and whatever... Whatever happenned to just believing that Christ died for our sins, and that God created everything, including cannabis, which is clearly pointed out, and spoken HIGHLY of many times in The Bible? Anyone? Seriously, anyone?


All christians and followers of the false god will be thrown in to the pits of hell. Hope your happy following the morning star, master of deception.. May you gnash your teeth in peace.


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## UncleBuck (Apr 20, 2012)

don't take this as me being mean to christians, take this as a challenge to your beliefs, as beliefs unchallenged are weak beliefs.

so, a talking snake gives a magic apple to a rib woman, a floating ether impregnates a human female, who then gives birth to a zombie that can defy physics, and this seems like not only an appealing story to believe in, but infallible as it is the word of god?

wow, just wow.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

researchkitty said:


> Universal Life Church minister, you are?
> 
> Anyone else want to be one? Why not? Its free and you can do it online.
> 
> ...


I'm a dudeist priest.



The dude abides.



http://dudeism.com/


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Alrighty then... I dont push it on anyone guy... Im fairly certain that if u read the Bible, and go back to the Hebrew texts, u will see that using kaneh-bosm, or cannabis is not a sin, and wont land one in hell... But thanks for trying to guess where my soul will end up when I die... I aint got any hate for u either, I just think that if everyone can say their piece on my Lord and Saviour, then I am also entitled to say my piece back... Imo definately keep it green, and happy, and believe what I feel convicted to believe, and live my life by... I was just asking for MY fellow Christian pot-heads to answer my call, and I see I am not alone... Read up on the Universal Life Church, and The Bible and cannabis... Just sayin... Not pushin... I didn't make this stuff up...


+rep

That is very interesting and I would be thrilled to know more. I'm not a Christian myself. I'm an apostate and atheist, but I have grown out of bashing. I would love to have a biblical precedent to convince some of my family members that it is not a sin to toke. If you enjoy sharing such things please do.


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## ted bundy (Apr 20, 2012)

Dumb christians. Gotta have faith, just give it to god. Ha favorite story the iceman is about to kill some dude,guy falls to his knees starts praying ice man says ill give you 15 minutes to pray if your god doesent come done and help your dead. Haha the guy dies. I beat broken hearted. Absent god? Did he take the day off?


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## ted bundy (Apr 20, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> +rep
> 
> That is very interesting and I would be thrilled to know more. I'm not a Christian myself. I'm an apostate and atheist, but I have grown out of bashing. I would love to have a biblical precedent to convince some of my family members that it is not a sin to toke. If you enjoy sharing such things please do.


Dont feed the fire man just let it die down..


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## UncleBuck (Apr 20, 2012)

"faith" is some of the best spin room work ever done in the history of mankind.

i sleep better at night knowing that my "faith" is placed in the same thing that landed us on the moon, cures diseases, and makes 4 hour internet fap sessions available at the click of a gadget.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

ted bundy said:


> Dumb christians. Gotta have faith, just give it to god. Ha favorite story the iceman is about to kill some dude,guy falls to his knees starts praying ice man says ill give you 15 minutes to pray if your god doesent come done and help your dead. Haha the guy dies. I beat broken hearted. Absent god? Did he take the day off?




You are in the early stages of atheism. Dawkins is brilliant, but relax. Life is better when you have more friends.


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## Uncultivated (Apr 20, 2012)

Catholic here. Don't let the haters get you down.

It's my observation that atheists seem to be the biggest religious zealots out there.


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## NnthStTrls (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Alrighty then... I dont push it on anyone guy... Im fairly certain that if u read the Bible, and go back to the Hebrew texts, u will see that using kaneh-bosm, or cannabis is not a sin, and wont land one in hell... But thanks for trying to guess where my soul will end up when I die... I aint got any hate for u either, I just think that if everyone can say their piece on my Lord and Saviour, then I am also entitled to say my piece back... Imo definately keep it green, and happy, and believe what I feel convicted to believe, and live my life by... I was just asking for MY fellow Christian pot-heads to answer my call, and I see I am not alone... Read up on the Universal Life Church, and The Bible and cannabis... Just sayin... Not pushin... I didn't make this stuff up...



Not trying to start you up or anything. I think it's great that you have faith and you smoke. 

Here's what I'm talking about. . . 

Is smoking weed a sin? Although the Bible does not address marijuana directly, it does discuss other mind-altering drugs. Specifically, the Bible addresses the use of drugs in the book of Galatians:

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

So, where are the drugs mentioned in this verse? Actually, the word translated "sorcery" is the Greek word pharmakeia,4 from which we get the English word "pharmacy." The primary meaning is "the use or the administering of drugs" (usually associated with sorcery or idolatry). Since this verse comes from a list of things that if practiced would preclude one from heaven, this should be a reasonably strong suggestion that the Christian should not practice drug use. In addition, the book of Revelation lists drug use as one of the things for which the unrepentant will suffer the wrath of God.5


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Apr 20, 2012)

why bash athiests for not believing the drivvel christians believe why not go one step further and bash all the other thousands of religions who believe in a completely different made up god than the christian one .surely that is the biggest insult a christian can recieve , someone discarding the christian god but not only saying he dosent exist but claiming that they believe in another god who created the earth and everything so everything in your bible is lies .i would be much more pissed off with that , than someone saying they dont believe in any god .


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## ted bundy (Apr 20, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> View attachment 2129941
> 
> You are in the early stages of atheism. Dawkins is brilliant, but relax. Life is better when you have more friends.


Ha. I learnt I wasent ment to have friends. Humans scare me, internet is as close as u get to them.


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## phillipchristian (Apr 20, 2012)

I've yet to find a religion that doesn't think they are the "ones." How is it that all religions say that anyone who is not of their beliefs will not go to heaven? Organized religion is the greatest scam ever pulled. Just like the Nigerian Prince who needs $30,000 to get his $56 million out of the bank and then he'll pay you back double. I wish you all the best of luck and hope you get everything you want in life. I just thought I would drop my $0.02

I'm here to learn about weed and teach some others what I know. No need to argue with me. I'm not getting in a debate over these comments. Those are my beliefs. I have a very ironic name though huh? I get that all the time...


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

I dont even have words to say about the heretics and haters Ive seen pop up here... These r my beliefs, and if u dont like em, then fine... I can clearly see the red dot pointed at Christianity, just like the government has its reticle on destroying the mj movement... Thatz cool... Peace out... Cancel my account... Im out...


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## scroglodyte (Apr 20, 2012)

ah Christians.........i love when dey comes to me island...............
yumm


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## thenagantghost (Apr 20, 2012)

I am not trying to feed the flame. I very rarely post on RIU but i LOVE this site as a reference. I am not tryin to fan the flame but i would like to throw in different ideas to stir the pot and see what everyone thinks.I personally think that all the "main" (christian, buddhist, muslim, etc) are/possibly/could be all the same religion. If you cross reference them they have a "virgin" birth, a "great flood", and their own "commandments", that are basically the same. Do good, be good, live good.Now, of course you will not be able to cross reference everything in every religion, but arent they all pretty similar?I believe that the old testament of the bible is jewish folklore. I mean really, who was writing genesis as it happened? Did go have a note-taker while he was creating? Did he create and dropped a book? I doubt it. Who is to say how long a day is to god? Days are just a human term so we can have some concept of time. We cant expect to hold aa diety to human standards. Our "day" could be 1000 years of gods time.The light came. The earth came. The plants came. The animals came. The people came. That sure looks alot like evolution to me. Who is to say that the theory of evolution and the bible cant work together? The bible leaves alot of questions. That is why they call it faith. Faith and religion are two completely different things. I am a christian and i am contemplating ordination. I do not believe that all of us came from adam and eve. That is not feasible. A talking snake? Oh come on. Now a talking spirit? A demon taking shape of an animal then talking? Its possible i wasnt there. Organized religion has brought more bad into this world than good. People want to take everything as literal truth, no matter where your "faith" may lie. I take the old testament and try to see how i can fit it in with other concepts and theories. Just to try to make the puzzle make more sense. No 1 book is going to have all the answers everyone may seek. Did yall read only one grow book? Did you only grow one strain? This is why we have variety so each individual can suit their needs. The bible says nothing directly about cannabis, BUT and original torah does. The cannabis (kaneh'bosm) translation was done away with 400 years ago by king james. It has been changed to cane and/or calamus (depending on what translation you use.I do believe in cannabis being the tree of life, the plant of ezekial and so on. And i also believe Jesus died for all of us. He is my lord and my savior i will bow to NO ONE else. I could go on and on but it is 4/20, and i am about to give a burnt sacrament offering. May peace be with you all on this day, the day of our cannabis plant.


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## VILEPLUME (Apr 20, 2012)

I am, but like most others I dont really post here.

My fav threads here are toke n' talk and smoke reports.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 20, 2012)

...some really good posts happening here in the last couple of days. Nice to see the believers writing their thoughts. Maybe we could have a flame suppression device installed so more people would feel free to discuss what they believe.


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## ginjawarrior (Apr 20, 2012)

silasraven said:


> there it be me. non believers are taking over the world... hey you know what that means, *rapture is soon to come! brothers and sisters we'll be going home soon!!!!* im so stoked and very tired.





GreatwhiteNorth said:


> Brother, you have had one hell of a hard row to hoe in life & deserve a rest.





GanjaGod420000 said:


> *I really do hope so! I can't understand the hatrid and antagonizing* behind some of these posts... I can only pray for them...



only one side of this is wishing eternal damnation on the other, thats hatred for you


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

No doubt! Itz funny how, I am a Christian, who also smokes and grows pot, and wants legalization to happen, but my beliefs r bashed about like they r total shit, and totally unaccepted here, all but a few of u(and God sees these posts and what is in your hearts, so thank u to all who have stood beside me here), but just ponder this: If all of these non-believers and antagonists are soooo against Christianity, and will not even tolerate it, nor even let us speak freely of our faith, and accept it in any way without coming on here talkin shit, then how do they ever think that the moral majority who ARENT cool with pot will EVER accept our collective beliefs in legalization? Not to say that the two will have anything to do with each other in votes, but just making a point about tolerance here... I have seen 5% of u who r tolerable of our beliefs, and the rest just about all tear us apart... So, why should we tolerate these other beliefs and faiths, and lack-thereof? Again, I ask, why is there even a forum for spirituality, when it is a barbecue pit for Christians? Thatz what this forum should be called, is the "SHIT ON CHRISTIANS FORUM"... Sure Im pissed off... Im pretty sure if I said something like Scroglodite said, like "non-Christians... yum yum... I just love it when they cross my narrow path, and I take out my "M-4 of righteousness", and flip it to fully, and lay down "judgment" on them, and then take em back to camp and eat them..." or something off-the-wall like that, that it would be greatly frowned upon- but at this point in here, I really don't care who I piss off for speaking my mind! I just asked if there r any other Christians on RIU, and took a mighty big beatin' for it... So much for ever going into any of these other forums... I will only stay on RIU to help out the FEW friends I HAVE got here, and GENERAL MJ GROWING is where I might be... I really tried to be as open and honest as I could be here, and now I see where I stand, even among my peers in the growing world... Really encouraging... I try to open up, and feel like I took a lashing for it.... Awesome! Bring it on...


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

I am not wishing eternal damnation on anyone... U r way too quick to speak, and dont even see the forest for the trees... Noone wants eternal damnation... And I certainly NEVER said I hope nonbelievers r punished... No hatred here, but from u it looks like...


ginjawarrior said:


> only one side of this is wishing eternal damnation on the other, thats hatred for you


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## ginjawarrior (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> I am not wishing eternal damnation on anyone... U r way too quick to speak, and dont even see the forest for the trees... Noone wants eternal damnation... And I certainly NEVER said I hope nonbelievers r punished... No hatred here, but from u it looks like...


what else does the rapture mean?


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

You have a choice... You'll find out... Itz not me who will judge u... But I wont entertain any more of this absurd shit against my God, and my Saviour, either... From the overwhelming sound of this forum, the rapture probably isnt too awful far away, either... I said I'll be glad when it happens so I can be taken out of this world, because I am not of this world, but unfortunately I must live in it for now... I didnt say Id be glad to see judgment cast on anyone... In fact, Im sure there'll be a great many tears and much sadness for those who do face the wrath of God... It is not what Christians want to see... That is why we present our faith, and try to lead men to Christ, but just because u can lead a horse to water, doesn't mean that u can make them drink... And, so it goes with this ancient battle of good and evil, and men fighting men for different beliefs, and so on and so forth... There will never be peace on Earth, until it has been cleansed once again, but not by water...


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

It's 4-20, by the way... Just wondering if anyone else has noticed, or r we just going to go back and forth on this all day, or r we going to be glad that it is our "holiday", and try to celebrate with each other in peace???


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## Rising Moon (Apr 20, 2012)

May I ask a question to the "real" Christians out there...?

I have a decent decent grasp on Christianity, have read the bible (recently) and consider myself pretty tolerant.

But it seems to me, that modern Christians, for the most part, are very separated from the real history of the religion itself.

For example, the Bible is held as "the word of god" yet it has been "edited" and re written hundreds of times in the last 1000 years
(http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2011/03/king-james-bible-historical-timeline/)

I am not anti-God, or anti-religion, it just seems irrational to believe in something with a history created by those who see fit, caving under political pressure, killing, enslaving and torturing millions "non believers" etc... This is not the word of God, it is the word of POWER

So I guess my question is.. 

Why would you want to associate with a historically corrupt religion?

Jesus teaches we are all the son of god, but this most important lesson was lost many moons ago...

And at least, my God, has nothing to do with any book or rules, my god created the universe, and is not to be bothered by trival matters, rediculous cerimonies or crack-pot theries pumped to the masses by the Tea party...


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## ginjawarrior (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> You have a choice... You'll find out... Itz not me who will judge u... But I wont entertain any more of this absurd shit against my God, and my Saviour, either... From the overwhelming sound of this forum, the rapture probably isnt too awful far away, either... I said I'll be glad when it happens so I can be taken out of this world, because I am not of this world, but unfortunately I must live in it for now... I didnt say Id be glad to see judgment cast on anyone... In fact, Im sure there'll be a great many tears and much sadness for those who do face the wrath of God... It is not what Christians want to see... That is why we present our faith, and try to lead men to Christ, but just because u can lead a horse to water, doesn't mean that u can make them drink... And, so it goes with this ancient battle of good and evil, and men fighting men for different beliefs, and so on and so forth... There will never be peace on Earth, until it has been cleansed once again, but not by water...


you worship a lord that would do that to people and your waiting with anticipation for the day it arrives. i think your lying to yourself when you say you dont wish judgement on non believers


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

You think that then... U have no idea what I think or wish...


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

Yeah, I do anticipate being taken out of such an evil world that is so mis-led and so lost, and so bleak... I do not anticipate seeing anyone perish... I would much rather see them become saved before the Lord does return...


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

I dont want to do this! I have said Christianity is about one's PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS, NOT A CERTAIN RELIGION OR DENOMINATION. In fact if u read what I wrote, I believe I said I do not like organized religion... Because of the man-made "rules and regulations" and how it divides us...


Rising Moon said:


> May I ask a question to the "real" Christians out there...?
> 
> I have a decent decent grasp on Christianity, have read the bible (recently) and consider myself pretty tolerant.
> 
> ...


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## ginjawarrior (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Yeah, I do anticipate being taken out of such an *evil world that is so mis-led and so lost, and so bleak*... I do not anticipate seeing anyone perish... I would much rather see them become saved before the Lord does return...


still not making a good case for yourself


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## Heisenberg (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> No doubt! Itz funny how, I am a Christian, who also smokes and grows pot, and wants legalization to happen, but my beliefs r bashed about like they r total shit, and totally unaccepted here, all but a few of u(and God sees these posts and what is in your hearts, so thank u to all who have stood beside me here), but just ponder this: If all of these non-believers and antagonists are soooo against Christianity, and will not even tolerate it, nor even let us speak freely of our faith, and accept it in any way without coming on here talkin shit, then how do they ever think that the moral majority who ARENT cool with pot will EVER accept our collective beliefs in legalization? Not to say that the two will have anything to do with each other in votes, but just making a point about tolerance here... I have seen 5% of u who r tolerable of our beliefs, and the rest just about all tear us apart... So, why should we tolerate these other beliefs and faiths, and lack-thereof? Again, I ask, why is there even a forum for spirituality, when it is a barbecue pit for Christians? Thatz what this forum should be called, is the "SHIT ON CHRISTIANS FORUM"... Sure Im pissed off... Im pretty sure if I said something like Scroglodite said, like "non-Christians... yum yum... I just love it when they cross my narrow path, and I take out my "M-4 of righteousness", and flip it to fully, and lay down "judgment" on them, and then take em back to camp and eat them..." or something off-the-wall like that, that it would be greatly frowned upon- but at this point in here, I really don't care who I piss off for speaking my mind! I just asked if there r any other Christians on RIU, and took a mighty big beatin' for it... So much for ever going into any of these other forums... I will only stay on RIU to help out the FEW friends I HAVE got here, and GENERAL MJ GROWING is where I might be... I really tried to be as open and honest as I could be here, and now I see where I stand, even among my peers in the growing world... Really encouraging... I try to open up, and feel like I took a lashing for it.... Awesome! Bring it on...


Excellent play of the hurt card. You began this discussion by framing it with judgmental and antagonistic tones. I've seen no more opposition to your views than I encounter with my own, and I have never felt the need to whine. Then again, I don't count legitimate criticism as bashing, in fact I welcome others to look for errors I may have missed. 

I see you treating anyone who doesn't believe as if they are worthy of nothing but hell, yet you are the one crying about tolerance. You belong to a cult that celebrates human sacrifice, are telling anyone who doubts that they will burn forever, cloak it all in the pretense of compassion, and you have the nerve to act offended at anything said here? Jesus demands that we love him above our parents, our children, our family and dismisses all those that don't to be horribly tortured for eternity. You are surprised when you encounter serious opposition to ideas like these?


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

Not surprised... Just feeling alone... You guys have a good one...


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## Nitegazer (Apr 20, 2012)

Rising Moon said:


> May I ask a question to the "real" Christians out there...?
> 
> I have a decent decent grasp on Christianity, have read the bible (recently) and consider myself pretty tolerant.
> 
> ...



Great question, Rising

Just know that there are a lot of sects in Christianity, and not all of them embrace the concept of an infallible bible. The faith that I embrace is liberal Quakerism-- they don't believe in a 'literally true' bible. 

One thing I would recommend to you, and others here: the Belief-O-Matic (made all the more charming by being a bit tongue in cheek). Answer a bunch of questions, find out the faith that fits your beliefs (including non-Christian). Here's the link if your curious, and no, it isn't a marketing ploy:
http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Quizzes/BeliefOMatic.aspx


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Apr 20, 2012)

Great post nitegazer - cool link as well.
Thanks.


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## skiweeds (Apr 20, 2012)

im christian but i dont practice it. i could care less what people think or if they are or not. i've lived a very blessed and fortunate life here in america. maybe it was god, maybe not. i dont really care. glad its me and not someone else.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

I would like to point out that Christ did not expect people to have faith, he (allegedly) performed miracles, thus completely validating his (alleged) divinity. Emulating Christ is what makes one a Christian. Therefore Faith is not a Christian tenet.


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## InfidelUniversity (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> I am tolerant of anyones beliefs;;;;;;monkey-metamorphisis, space alien, crazy-ass beliefs, on here, , their far-fetched, man-made, dreamed up concoctions of science and sci-fi, and whatever...



...............................


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

InfidelUniversity said:


> View attachment 2130250...............................


Bullshit is a gateway drug.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 20, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> I would like to point out that Christ did not expect people to have faith, he (allegedly) performed miracles, thus completely validating his (alleged) divinity. Emulating Christ is what makes one a Christian. Therefore Faith is not a Christian tenet.


...faith is built on the 'rock' (Peter - Pineal). This is what is meant when they wrote about uniting the head and the heart, the right and the left, the dark and the light - etc. The pineal is activated and the 'eye of God' is the result. In common terms that equates to seeing both sides of the story, etc. Think about it like this "the I of God" <---that's the switch, a person recognizes where they are from - who they are from. It builds compassion. "build my church on the rock - peter - faith" - that's the compassion reference. So, yes, faith is the main tenet of belief (in all faiths).

So, that's my take on it from what I've come to understand through experience.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...faith is built on the 'rock' (Peter - Pineal). This is what is meant when they wrote about uniting the head and the heart, the right and the left, the dark and the light - etc. The pineal is activated and the 'eye of God' is the result. In common terms that equates to seeing both sides of the story, etc. Think about it like this "the I of God" <---that's the switch, a person recognizes where they are from - who they are from. It builds compassion. "build my church on the rock - peter - faith" - that's the compassion reference. So, yes, faith is the main tenet of belief (in all faiths).
> 
> So, that's my take on it from what I've come to understand through experience.


I dare you to prove it!


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## ginjawarrior (Apr 20, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...faith is built on the 'rock' (Peter - Pineal). This is what is meant when they wrote about uniting the head and the heart, the right and the left, the dark and the light - etc. The pineal is activated and the 'eye of God' is the result. In common terms that equates to seeing both sides of the story, etc. Think about it like this "the I of God" <---that's the switch, a person recognizes where they are from - who they are from. It builds compassion. "build my church on the rock - peter - faith" - that's the compassion reference. So, yes, faith is the main tenet of belief (in all faiths).
> 
> So, that's my take on it from what I've come to understand through experience.


what experiences have you had with your pineal gland? how do you tell if its your pineal gland and not your medulla oblongata << serious question
[h=3][/h]


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## tyler.durden (Apr 20, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Excellent play of the hurt card. You began this discussion by framing it with judgmental and antagonistic tones. I've seen no more opposition to your views than I encounter with my own, and I have never felt the need to whine. Then again, I don't count legitimate criticism as bashing, in fact I welcome others to look for errors I may have missed.
> 
> I see you treating anyone who doesn't believe as if they are worthy of nothing but hell, yet you are the one crying about tolerance. You belong to a cult that celebrates human sacrifice, are telling anyone who doubts that they will burn forever, cloak it all in the pretense of compassion, and you have the nerve to act offended at anything said here? Jesus demands that we love him above our parents, our children, our family and dismisses all those that don't to be horribly tortured for eternity. You are surprised when you encounter serious opposition to ideas like these?


*Like* and +rep...


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 20, 2012)

ginjawarrior said:


> what experiences have you had with your pineal gland? how do you tell if its your pineal gland and not your medulla oblongata << serious question


...they are hard to explain, really. It's not that it can't be put into words, it is more like 'which friggin words?'. You can see plain as day on the forum that people do try to explain. I think the reason is that you have the experience, then later you start to read up on it (if the experience shakes a person enough - I'm guessing). Over time you develop a body of work and knowledge to be able to describe as best you can what it means to believe. It is based on experience - and 'taste' is another biblical (or holy book) way of saying 'experience'.

I think the bottom line is that they are all very unique, but share what is known as an archetypal quality.

Anyway, minute bit of my take on that


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 20, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> I dare you to prove it!


...lol, why - I just did  I offered my perspective by way of typing words into a forum. The fact that you responded is proof enough that you don't need proof.

Hehe


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Apr 20, 2012)

alot of the christians on here think there beliefs should be imune to questioning or ridicule , the very same so called christians are on other threads bashing someone for believing that man has not been to the moon .and are quick to point out evidence to him that we did go to the moon .
everyone is entitled to there beliefs but be prepared that others wont share that belief and will question argue and ridicule you , thats life im afraid .


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## missnu (Apr 20, 2012)

I am not a Christian, but it is alright if you are..I think people should just stop talking about their religion on here at all...or their lack of religion, whatever the case may be...I see no reason to discuss it at all...I don't understand all this preoccupation with what other people are doing or thinking or believing...because when you openly discuss your points of view you are inviting others to as well, and sometimes that can be a little hard to swallow...for anyone


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 20, 2012)

...it all comes down to this:

[video=youtube;pWS8Mg-JWSg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWS8Mg-JWSg[/video]


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## Rising Moon (Apr 20, 2012)

missnu said:


> I am not a Christian, but it is alright if you are..I think people should just stop talking about their religion on here at all...or their lack of religion, whatever the case may be...I see no reason to discuss it at all...I don't understand all this preoccupation with what other people are doing or thinking or believing...because when you openly discuss your points of view you are inviting others to as well, and sometimes that can be a little hard to swallow...for anyone


You are right, however, this is the spirituality section of the forum, where people can, and will discuss such issues.

I think its great to read about what others think and believe...

Because, my mind changes all the time...

As soon as you believe anything, it precludes you from believing something else...

The truth is S L O W L Y being revealed on this planet, and honest discussion and critical thinking are the only tools we have to tease all the details out...

So, speculate on!

Im having fun...


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...lol, why - I just did  I offered my perspective by way of typing words into a forum. The fact that you responded is proof enough that you don't need proof.
> 
> Hehe


Proof [proof]

noun

 1. evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth. 


2. anything serving as such evidence: What proof do you have? 


3. the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial: to put a thing to the proof. 


4. the establishment of the truth of anything; demonstration. 


Evidence [ev-i-dence]

noun

 1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof. 


2. something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign: His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever. 



I omitted the definitions that pertain to law, which is very charitable, and yet still nothing you said remotely resembles any of these definitions for either proof or evidence.


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## tyler.durden (Apr 20, 2012)

missnu said:


> I am not a Christian, but it is alright if you are..I think people should just stop talking about their religion on here at all...or their lack of religion, whatever the case may be...I see no reason to discuss it at all...I don't understand all this preoccupation with what other people are doing or thinking or believing...because when you openly discuss your points of view you are inviting others to as well, and sometimes that can be a little hard to swallow...for anyone


It's a big leap from, 'I see no reason to discuss it at all' to 'I think EVERYONE shouldn't discuss it'. Seems very egocentric. It's a public sub-forum specifically created to discuss these very things, it would seem a waste of virtual space not to. Many of us like to have our ideas, beliefs and POVs challenged. It can help show you where you may have errors, and can strengthen your critical thinking skills. Plus, I often learn so many new things from these discussions. True, it can sting but I'm often better for it...


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 20, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> Proof [proof]
> 
> noun
> 
> ...


...problem number one - you think I owe it to you. I don't.

...problem number two - how can a person use mundane words to describe something beyond it? You would have to have faith first in order to engage in a discussion about faith. Make sense? I could describe until I'm blue in the face (haha) and you wouldn't agree. It comes down to 'taste' - experience. So what we've established here is that religion is not to your liking, you don't have a 'taste' for it. No biggie.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...problem number one - you think I owe it to you. I don't.
> 
> ...problem number two - how can a person use mundane words to describe something beyond it? You would have to have faith first in order to engage in a discussion about faith. Make sense? I could describe until I'm blue in the face (haha) and you wouldn't agree. It comes down to 'taste' - experience. So what we've established here is that religion is not to your liking, you don't have a 'taste' for it. No biggie.


It is quite true, you owe me nothing, and so you fail to convince me, so we have nothing to offer one another. However, I would LOVE to believe what you do. If you can deliver a cogent argument, I will be convinced. If you do not wish to convince people of what you say, you are just blowing smoke. Want to buy some snake oil? It cures everything.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

Mabye u should be careful not to OD on it...


InfidelUniversity said:


> View attachment 2130250...............................


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Mabye u should be careful not to OD on it...


Actually go over the thread again, I came in here very peacefully telling the militant atheists to calm down and asking you to share your ideas. I want to believe what you do, but bullshit just doesn't work for me.


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## tyler.durden (Apr 20, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...problem number one - you think I owe it to you. I don't.
> 
> ...problem number two - how can a person use mundane words to describe something beyond it? You would have to have faith first in order to engage in a discussion about faith. Make sense? I could describe until I'm blue in the face (haha) and you wouldn't agree. It comes down to 'taste' - experience. So what we've established here is that religion is not to your liking, you don't have a 'taste' for it. No biggie.


Hey, Eye! When one brings up ideas but don't back them up with anything concrete, they can be hard to take seriously. You seem so eloquent, it's hard to believe that you couldn't put any experience into words. I find it curious that people that bring up concrete concepts based in reality have no trouble putting them into words, I myself have beautifully transcendent experiences that I've never had trouble explaining in detail. i.e. one can engage in a discussion about biology or cosmology without having prior knowledge (or 'taste') of the subject, why is it so different for the topic of faith? You know I mean no offense, just inquiring...


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## cannabiscuit7 (Apr 20, 2012)

im Lutheran,and i believe if you live a religous or non-religous life,as long as it makes you happy and a better person because of it than,so be it.You know?Most bashing on this sites done when some jerk decides to belittle someones beliefs(thats when keys on the keyboard start getting crunched)if discussions were like "I understand what your saying,and where your coming from,but my belief is my belief,and i live happily because of it." Than no one feels the need to prove or disprove anything.Everyones happy,and we can have an intellectual discussion without anyone getting theyre feelings hurt.Basically treat others views on forums as if it were your own point of view.No one likes being called a moron via web.


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## InfidelUniversity (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Mabye u should be careful not to OD on it...








 Okay I wont 

I though bullshit was fed to people who are kept in the dark????................................


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

I shared what I had. Im done... But bullshit dont cut it with me either... I just see where it appeared as though u were joining in on the gang bang on me, so there ya go... Christians can fight back too, believe it or not... SOmetimes enough is enough... Im not going back and reading anything else... I truely have many much better and more productive things to attend to, than repeatedly attemt to explain or re-explain myself, while everyone pickz apart every word and letter of what I say, and either misconstrues it, or blows it up so big, that it is just ridiculous, so I really dont care anymore... Im glad to see theres some other folks on here like myself, but it is of no relevance to me what anyone else does, says, or believes, or whatever...


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

Nice monkey pics... Do u use them as porno also, while u r on the computer? Is that what yer into? Thatz cool man... No hate here... Just sayin man...


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> I shared what I had. Im done... But bullshit dont cut it with me either... I just see where it appeared as though u were joining in on the gang bang on me, so there ya go... Christians can fight back too, believe it or not... SOmetimes enough is enough... Im not going back and reading anything else... I truely have many much better and more productive things to attend to, than repeatedly attemt to explain or re-explain myself, while everyone pickz apart every word and letter of what I say, and either misconstrues it, or blows it up so big, that it is just ridiculous, so I really dont care anymore... Im glad to see theres some other folks on here like myself, but it is of no relevance to me what anyone else does, says, or believes, or whatever...


Want to buy some snake oil? It cures everything.


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## cannabineer (Apr 20, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> It is quite true, you owe me nothing, and so you fail to convince me, so we have nothing to offer one another. However, I would LOVE to believe what you do. If you can deliver a cogent argument, I will be convinced. If you do not wish to convince people of what you say, you are just blowing smoke. Want to buy some snake oil? It cures everything.


In my humble onion ... when eye says "how can a person use mundane words to describe something beyond it?", that deserves respect. I am not convinced, myself ... but more importantly, I am not counterconvinced. I have not done much psychedelic travel, but the bit I did educated me in the sheer power of ideas, perceptions etc. that simply cannot be reduced to language, and so are freed from either the necessity or even the availability of proof, or disproof. While I am generally a very verbal and reason-driven individual, the lesson for me was that reason is not all of it. It is simultaneously frustrating and oddly comforting that reality isn't everywhere definite, reducible to language. I believe that the incommunicable contains something real, even as I am not fond of ascribing something as anthropocentric as "consciousness" or "will" or "identity" to that. cn

<edit> Tyler, I think this post speaks to your question as well.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> In my humble onion ... when eye says "how can a person use mundane words to describe something beyond it?", that deserves respect. I am not convinced, myself ... but more importantly, I am not counterconvinced. I have not done much psychedelic travel, but the bit I did educated me in the sheer power of ideas, perceptions etc. that simply cannot be reduced to language, and so are freed from either the necessity or even the availability of proof, or disproof. While I am generally a very verbal and reason-driven individual, the lesson for me was that reason is not all of it. It is simultaneously frustrating and oddly comforting that reality isn't everywhere definite, reducible to language. I believe that the incommunicable contains something real, even as I am not fond of ascribing something as anthropocentric as "consciousness" or "will" or "identity" to that. cn
> 
> <edit> Tyler, I think this post speaks to your question as well.


"...this is how you can experience what I did that made me believe what I do." would be sufficient.

I want to believe in magic too. Share this amazing shit.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

Will it help my size 12 Red Wing steel toe boot up a few asses? LOL!


abandonconflict said:


> Want to buy some snake oil? It cures everything.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Will it help my size 12 Red Wing steel toe boot up a few asses? LOL!


All you need is faith.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

Im thinkin 10 gallons or so oughtta do... Whatdya think?


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

Faith... Check...


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Im thinkin 10 gallons or so oughtta do... Whatdya think?


No problem, but it will cost you. A LOT!


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## Nitegazer (Apr 20, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> "...this is how you can experience what I did that made me believe what I do." would be sufficient.
> 
> I want to believe in magic too. Share this amazing shit.


One magic trick that works for many: Wait a while and everything will disappear-- EVERYTHING. Faith is an approach to incorporate the unknowable in our lives.


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## cannabineer (Apr 20, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> "...this is how you can experience what I did that made me believe what I do." would be sufficient.
> 
> I want to believe in magic too. Share this amazing shit.


When I re-dosed with the same psychedelics, I did not revisit the "amazing places" but got to see some different ones. I could not even do it (reproduce the experience) for myself. Does that invalidate the first visit? I think not. Does it help me communicate my experiences/perceptions? No. Some things simply are beyond language, reason, the limitations of our one-and-change kilogram of hot thinkin' meat. There is (to my knowledge) no reproducible procedure. 

I draw the line at magic. Magic is the perceptible influence of unnatural forces upon a natural substrate. I don't think either I or eye (heh!) are describing or advocating magic. I guess what I am saying is that these ineffable experiences are probably a part of Nature and thus not magic, but for reasons of our neurology are ordinarily filtered out somehow ... rather conforming to Aldous Huxley's brilliant metaphor of the "doors of perception". cn


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 20, 2012)

On 2nd thought, no need for any lube... LOL!


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

Nitegazer said:


> One magic trick that works for many: Wait a while and everything will disappear-- EVERYTHING. Faith is an approach to incorporate the unknowable in our lives.


Nothing is unknowable. We just have not learned it yet.

*Enter the realm of discovery. In order to do so, you must free yourself from preconceived notions and foregone conclusions. 

Do not say, "Here are the conclusions. Find facts to support them."

But say, "Here are the facts. What conclusions can we draw from them?"

Now I will reference the poetry of a beautifully written epic from centuries ago. It was written to guide people and in it's time, I believe that it was a good thing, and the text still has much value.

Romans, chapter 12, verse 2, King James Bible: 

"And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Go discover, arrive at conclusions, do not make them. *


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## cannabineer (Apr 20, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> Want to buy some snake oil? It cures everything.


My snake has never squeaked or bound. Maybe it's self-lubing. cn


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## InfidelUniversity (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> No hate here.............................................. .................Do u use them as porno also?


oh yea baby 


[video=youtube;HpfrEvWR64c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpfrEvWR64c[/video]


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## Nitegazer (Apr 20, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> Nothing is unknowable. We just have not learned it yet.


I'm not talking about 'We' or humans throughout history. I am referring to you. There are many things that are unknowable for you, utterly beyond your reach. The same is true for me.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

Don't mistake the hate of others as emanating from me. I want to believe.


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## tyler.durden (Apr 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> In my humble onion ... when eye says "how can a person use mundane words to describe something beyond it?", that deserves respect. I am not convinced, myself ... but more importantly, I am not counterconvinced. I have not done much psychedelic travel, but the bit I did educated me in the sheer power of ideas, perceptions etc. that simply cannot be reduced to language, and so are freed from either the necessity or even the availability of proof, or disproof. While I am generally a very verbal and reason-driven individual, the lesson for me was that reason is not all of it. It is simultaneously frustrating and oddly comforting that reality isn't everywhere definite, reducible to language. I believe that the incommunicable contains something real, even as I am not fond of ascribing something as anthropocentric as "consciousness" or "will" or "identity" to that. cn
> 
> <edit> Tyler, I think this post speaks to your question as well.


Thanks, Neer. I cannot relate because, although I've had many fantastic, ethereal experiences (including dropping a LOT of acid and shrooms) I've never had trouble putting them into language that anyone could understand. Eye doesn't seem to have any trouble relaying his ideas with language, it seems the trouble comes in when trying to back them up. if some ideas/perceptions are freed from proof or disproof because they cannot be reduced to language, it seems strange to try to share them on a forum that relies on the written word...


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## Nitegazer (Apr 20, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> Don't mistake the hate of others as emanating from me. I want to believe.



I don't mistake that. I responded to your post specifically because I read sincerity. I also respect your approach.

When I was in college, I was approached by a born again fellow. He tried to convince me that he could see devils and demons (real ones) in Dungeons and Dragons books. He told me I could see them too if I sincerely prayed with him for deliverance. I knelt down with him and prayed-- never did see demons, and the guy never showed up again.


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## cannabineer (Apr 20, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Thanks, Neer. I cannot relate because, although I've had many fantastic, ethereal experiences (including dropping a LOT of acid and shrooms) I've never had trouble putting them into language that anyone could understand. Eye doesn't seem to have any trouble relaying his ideas with language, it seems the trouble comes in when trying to back them up. if some ideas/perceptions are freed from proof or disproof because they cannot be reduced to language, it seems strange to try to share them on a forum that relies on the written word...


Tyler, i wish i knew how to respond to this. I am amazed that you have not had experiences mediated by acid or shrooms that you can't put into words. I had an opposite experience, which for one as verbal as I seemed like a warning: words are not the territory. 
What our comparative experiences seem to underline is that individual humans have rather diverse experiences to similar stimuli. This makes me even less confident that a true science of the mind is even on the horizon, to say nothing of it being within our grasp. I feel apologetic for being constrained to plead such profound ignorance. cn


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

Psychedelic experiences are what you make them. That offers no evidence of anything, no matter how you cut it, faith is required. Faith is nothing more than preconceived notion. You cannot discover if you already know.


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## Nitegazer (Apr 20, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> Psychedelic experiences are what you make them. That offers no evidence of anything, no matter how you cut it, faith is required. Faith is nothing more than preconceived notion. You cannot discover if you already know.



Faith is more like a longing-- a mixture of hope, dread and perseverance. People wouldn't fight so much over a 'notion'.


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Apr 20, 2012)

i have faith that goblins exist .
i have faith the tooth fairy exists .
i have faith bigfoot is living in my wardrobe but hes invisible but if you have faith you will know hes in there .


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

Nitegazer said:


> Faith is more like a longing-- a mixture of hope, dread and perseverance. People wouldn't fight so much over a 'notion'.


In context sure. Religious faith manifests as that mixture. No need to argue semantics though. I say live and let live, but the first post in this thread was actually very promising, I seemed to have a "Christian" ally, he turned out to be as hateful as he accuses others of being. Not very Christ like.


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## cannabineer (Apr 20, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> Psychedelic experiences are what you make them. That offers no evidence of anything, no matter how you cut it, faith is required. Faith is nothing more than preconceived notion. You cannot discover if you already know.


Can being "pretty sure" of something not be counted as an instance of faith? cn


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Can being "pretty sure" of something not be counted as an instance of faith? cn


That's just like, your opinion, man.


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## cannabineer (Apr 20, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> That's just like, your opinion, man.View attachment 2130452


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 20, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Hey, Eye! When one brings up ideas but don't back them up with anything concrete, they can be hard to take seriously. You seem so eloquent, it's hard to believe that you couldn't put any experience into words. I find it curious that people that bring up concrete concepts based in reality have no trouble putting them into words, I myself have beautifully transcendent experiences that I've never had trouble explaining in detail. i.e. one can engage in a discussion about biology or cosmology without having prior knowledge (or 'taste') of the subject, why is it so different for the topic of faith? You know I mean no offense, just inquiring...


...you're fortunate to be able to describe them. I'm guessing it also comes out as violin playing? I can't put most of it into words because it is an extremely personal thing. Also because the story itself is pretty crazy and not something to be playing with on a forum. I like to give bits and pieces so that people can go on their own and piece their own puzzle together. One thing I can say is that this has a lot to do with a person's sexual energies and how they use them. Also, mine does come out as art so even more incomprehensible considering I lean toward the abstract. Oy 

What would be one thing I could answer...?


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


>


lmao good one.


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## cannabineer (Apr 20, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...you're fortunate to be able to describe them. I'm guessing it also comes out as violin playing? I can't put most of it into words because it is an extremely personal thing. Also because the story itself is pretty crazy and not something to be playing with on a forum. I like to give bits and pieces so that people can go on their own and piece their own puzzle together. One thing I can say is that this has a lot to do with a person's sexual energies and how they use them. Also, mine does come out as art so even more incomprehensible considering I lean toward the abstract. Oy
> 
> What would be one thing I could answer...?


Since my sexual energies have ebbed ... could I "go alternative"? But not wind energy ... too verbose. cn


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## RawBudzski (Apr 20, 2012)

tip top toker said:


> I have never in my life met a real Christian, let alone on RIU.


Amen to that.


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## RawBudzski (Apr 20, 2012)

People walking out of church claiming to be christians are usually on the same level as someone stepping out the barbershop w/ a fresh buzzcut claiming to be Rastafarian.


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## cannabineer (Apr 20, 2012)

It's not stubble. They're dreadseeds. cn


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

RawBudzski said:


> People walking out of church claiming to be christians are usually on the same level as someone stepping out the barbershop w/ a fresh buzzcut claiming to be Rastafarian.


Brought to you by ROME!


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## RawBudzski (Apr 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> It's not stubble. They're dreadseeds. cn


 Ooh.. that is very good.  I just buzzed my hair last night, my rasta friend is on the way here.. & The first thing I shall speak to him about are my new dreadseeds. <3 ii'R Rastafari' praise Jah!


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## abandonconflict (Apr 20, 2012)

It could be you that has to struggle.


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## Heisenberg (Apr 20, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Not surprised... Just feeling alone... You guys have a good one...


You go out into the world pretending to have answers without being able to list any rationale what so ever. The ideas you propose involve cruelty, prejudice, and fascism while devaluing the love humans feel for one another. You glorify ignorance while pretending to knowledge, and when your ideas are criticized you play the drama queen hurt card in an attempt to exploit emotions to gain tolerance and quiet opposition. At the same time your contempt for those who disagree is obvious and you have made it clear which fate you would pick for them. You...deserve..to be alone.


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## tyler.durden (Apr 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Tyler, i wish i knew how to respond to this. I am amazed that you have not had experiences mediated by acid or shrooms that you can't put into words. I had an opposite experience, which for one as verbal as I seemed like a warning: words are not the territory.
> What our comparative experiences seem to underline is that individual humans have rather diverse experiences to similar stimuli. This makes me even less confident that a true science of the mind is even on the horizon, to say nothing of it being within our grasp. I feel apologetic for being constrained to plead such profound ignorance. cn


I'm also surprised, for I cannot imagine an experience for which you are at a loss for words  It is both magical and maddening that each of us have such disparate mental experiences, even to the exact same stimuli...


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## tyler.durden (Apr 21, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...you're fortunate to be able to describe them. I'm guessing it also comes out as violin playing? I can't put most of it into words because it is an extremely personal thing. Also because the story itself is pretty crazy and not something to be playing with on a forum. I like to give bits and pieces so that people can go on their own and piece their own puzzle together. One thing I can say is that this has a lot to do with a person's sexual energies and how they use them. Also, mine does come out as art so even more incomprehensible considering I lean toward the abstract. Oy
> 
> What would be one thing I could answer...?



Oh, yes. Being able to communicate my emotions and ideas musically gives me an outlet for expression on an entirely different level. I'm sure you can relate. I read once that the two hemispheres of the brain usually develop at more or less the same rate, i.e. If one develops the left hemisphere, the right kind of tags right along as opposed to leaving one hemisphere significantly underdeveloped. That would help explain why many great scientists are also very competent artists and musicians: Einstein, Armstrong, Bell, Edison, etc.. One thing you could answer? I don't know, I personally don't really understand most of your posts. I do love your wit and humor, one can sense the great intelligence behind them...


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## BA142 (Apr 21, 2012)

tip top toker said:


> I have never in my life met a real Christian, let alone on RIU.


The Westboro Baptist clowns are probably the last "true" Christian's. Not even kidding, they probably are. 99% of Christian's practice some sort of modified version of Christianity that fits into their lifestyle.


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## Nitegazer (Apr 21, 2012)

BA142 said:


> The Westboro Baptist clowns are probably the last "true" Christian's. Not even kidding, they probably are. 99% of Christian's practice some sort of modified version of Christianity that fits into their lifestyle.


Perhaps those who call themselves Christians are more like the folks who spent time with the fellow (Gentiles, Tax Collectors, etc.) and admired him. Jesus may have preferred polite company to 'adherents' anyway.


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## Doer (Apr 21, 2012)

What is it? Christianity. To be like Jesus? Or Christ? How can anyone hope to understand when all there is, has been combined, handed down stories.

It is the worship of what the guys around said later. Peter never saw the risen Lord, but just took the word of Thomas and Simon. He had barely escaped the torment himself. Peter was convince the Apocalypse would be certainly be very soon. So, like the Spaceship Cult, he ran to prepare the Way. Jesus, as far as we know, never said any of that. Jesus told about 20 or so parables, right? 

Peter, thinking Roman women should not conceive into the coming global disaster, preached celibacy from his 
own hymn book. For that he was executed. 

The promise of Salvation came much later, in John 3:16. Jesus never said that either. Just gushy hope from John.


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## researchkitty (Apr 21, 2012)

I dont think religion is a preconceived notion. Conceived by other humans, yes, but not pre-humans. Only a creature like us could make up something so silly as a different God for you to choose based on what vaginal cavity you were born in that mother decided to teach you while you were too young to understand that they were all falling for the same trick.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 21, 2012)

Whatever man... U talk a slick talk... But I highly doubt u r someone who has any real backbone... I truely dont care what u think of me, and I am by no means alone... U should cut your tounge out, and fry it up with some eggs, and go make yourself a nice omelet... Or just try getting offa the computer and getting a life... Thats what I think u deserve... U wanna talk shit, fine... I'm not deciding anyone's fate, but my own... Hope that omelet tastes good...


Heisenberg said:


> You go out into the world pretending to have answers without being able to list any rationale what so ever. The ideas you propose involve cruelty, prejudice, and fascism while devaluing the love humans feel for one another. You glorify ignorance while pretending to knowledge, and when your ideas are criticized you play the drama queen hurt card in an attempt to exploit emotions to gain tolerance and quiet opposition. At the same time your contempt for those who disagree is obvious and you have made it clear which fate you would pick for them. You...deserve..to be alone.


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## researchkitty (Apr 21, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Whatever man... U talk a slick talk... But I highly doubt u r someone who has any real backbone... I truely dont care what u think of me, and I am by no means alone... U should cut your tounge out, and fry it up with some eggs, and go make yourself a nice omelet... Or just try getting offa the computer and getting a life... Thats what I think u deserve... U wanna talk shit, fine... I'm not deciding anyone's fate, but my own... Hope that omelet tastes good...


Spoken like a true Christian. Thank you for making our point.


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## Nitegazer (Apr 21, 2012)

Doer said:


> What is it? Christianity. To be like Jesus? Or Christ? How can anyone hope to understand when all there is, has been combined, handed down stories.
> 
> It is the worship of what the guys around said later. Peter never saw the risen Lord, but just took the word of Thomas and Simon. He had barely escaped the torment himself. Peter was convince the Apocalypse would be certainly be very soon. So, like the Spaceship Cult, he ran to prepare the Way. Jesus, as far as we know, never said any of that. Jesus told about 20 or so parables, right?
> 
> ...


At its most fundamental, I would say that being a Christian means subscribing to what was said at the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew Ch. 5,6, and 7). That is the clearest event where the guy called Jesus created a venue where he said what he had to say. It would be hard to avoid the 'Sermon' if the goal is to try to interpret what the will of Jesus was.

Note that Jesus need not be a historic figure in this. It could be a group of people, or just a fictional story. I'm just saying that it seems to be the focus of what was presented to the general population.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 21, 2012)

No problem... Now, can we get back to something else a little bit more constructive, like I dunno... mabye growing pot and talking about that for a while???


researchkitty said:


> Spoken like a true Christian. Thank you for making our point.


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## Doer (Apr 21, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> No problem... Now, can we get back to something else a little bit more constructive, like I dunno... mabye growing pot and talking about that for a while???


There are threads for that and we are here in this one talking about this. If your views are being challenged, by all means, retire. Christians and in general, all the Western religions are very violent of thought and very judgmental. It has morphed into a power structure where it's OK to be Holy and condemn those that "are not" Holy. (somehow??) It is supposed to attract those and help them be more meek. But, how can it help? Only the knowledge of Self can help, is my personal experience.


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## Heisenberg (Apr 21, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Whatever man... U talk a slick talk... But I highly doubt u r someone who has any real backbone... I truely dont care what u think of me, and I am by no means alone... U should cut your tounge out, and fry it up with some eggs, and go make yourself a nice omelet... Or just try getting offa the computer and getting a life... Thats what I think u deserve... U wanna talk shit, fine... I'm not deciding anyone's fate, but my own... Hope that omelet tastes good...


 Is this an example of the tolerance you were crying about a few pages ago? You are a sadistic hypocrite who can't even keep his own words consistent, yet I am the one who needs to get a life? The truth is you want your feeble beliefs respected even if it means imposing on other's basic rights. You seek total submission to your God and react with violent inclinations when you do not get it. If there exists a less moral framework than the one you are displaying, I do not know of it.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 21, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...faith is built on the 'rock' (Peter - Pineal). This is what is meant when they wrote about uniting the head and the heart, the right and the left, the dark and the light - etc. The pineal is activated and the 'eye of God' is the result. In common terms that equates to seeing both sides of the story, etc. Think about it like this "the I of God" <---that's the switch, a person recognizes where they are from - who they are from. It builds compassion. "build my church on the rock - peter - faith" - that's the compassion reference. So, yes, faith is the main tenet of belief (in all faiths).
> 
> So, that's my take on it from what I've come to understand through experience.


I would like to change my position on your stance. I am skeptical of faith and feel that all spirituality should be put to test, but you seem to base yours on experience (albeit under the effects of perturbed brain chemistry). You know what you know and that is based on what you have personally been awed by. That is not blind faith. That is not group think.

*Faith... must be enforced by reason... when faith becomes blind it dies.

*
~Mahatma Gandhi 
​


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## Rising Moon (Apr 21, 2012)

So I guess now we all know...

There really are Christians on RIU.

But, Christian pot heads is an oxymoron...

Its okay to believe in God and not call yourself a Christian.

Christians have a set of beliefs, (whether or not you admit) and those beliefs are well laid out in the media, in church and in literature.

I think 'Christianity' the word is just too loaded, and it would be more intelligent to avoid labeling yourself altogether, if you do in fact "believe"

Most adults see a certain, how shall I say, lack of intellect in "believing" and being "reborn" etc.

Simply put, Christians put out a bad vibes...

But, Spiritual people, tent to put out positive, non judgmental energy.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 21, 2012)

Rising Moon said:


> But, Christian pot heads is an oxymoron...


I think it is possible to make a case that is counter to this view, not that I am swayed by any biblical argument, just that I would like to convince a Christian that it is not a sin to toke.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 21, 2012)

It may be possible, but go out and ask..99% of Christians would be against use of Cannabis.

And are the major group around the world working towards keeping Cannabis illegal.

The Bible and Christianity are very separated from each other...

So the "...every seed bearing plant..." argument wont fly.


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## Doer (Apr 21, 2012)

BTW, I'm a Methodist. I had a knee wobbling, practically passed out and crying experience at 9 years old in church. Maybe it's just the Super-consciousness experiencing "something." I didn't even remember until I experienced it later in life. 

I've sought out and learned. I have practiced and I can get a dose of IT whenever I let go of the mind cloud and sit and just breath in Now. The answer. To simply find out what is there in the quiet calm of thoughtless inner experience. IT is what has been described, vibration Sound WORD. 

It's not the talk about IT, not the religious questioning. Not worshiping the questioning. IT is the answer that guides my life. And, at any moment, I care to stop goofing around, I can tune in. 

I think about Religion as the guy that had these awesome experiences. Realized his Knowledge, as it were, and found he could also influence and even teach the way to find IT. Actually reveal it. Then we all talk about it. Nothing wrong with questioning, IMO.


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## BA142 (Apr 21, 2012)

Rising Moon said:


> It may be possible, but go out and ask..99% of Christians would be against use of Cannabis.
> 
> And are the major group around the world working towards keeping Cannabis illegal.
> 
> ...


Hey man I dislike Christianity and Religion as much as the next guy, but almost 100% of my family are Christian and they all know about my medical use...and they support it completely.

Just because they believe in crazy fairy tales doesn't mean they're not capable of logical thought.

The major groups keeping cannabis illegal are Big Pharma and alcohol companies, not the Christian's. Christian's can be blamed for all the contraceptive controversy, abortion and almost every war that has taken place in the past 2000 years...but not cannabis prohibition.


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## researchkitty (Apr 21, 2012)

Doer said:


> BTW, I'm a Methodist.


I was a member of the Methodist church from birth until age 17. I still dont know many of the differences between the other versions of Christianity, such as Catholic vs Methodist vs Lutheran vs Baptist. One God many rules I guess......


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## Doer (Apr 21, 2012)

yes, we make up rules. lost in complexity, I'm strangled by it sometimes. When I started to question, I remember it was the Aquarian Gospel and the newly found Dead Sea scrolls. The local minister my mom insisted I visit with her, was seeing me as a blasphemer as I walked into the room. It was ot a nice conversation and he was the most closed minded individual...like my mom. It was then I saw the Bible was being worshiped, that's all.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 21, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Oh, yes. Being able to communicate my emotions and ideas musically gives me an outlet for expression on an entirely different level. I'm sure you can relate. I read once that the two hemispheres of the brain usually develop at more or less the same rate, i.e. If one develops the left hemisphere, the right kind of tags right along as opposed to leaving one hemisphere significantly underdeveloped. That would help explain why many great scientists are also very competent artists and musicians: Einstein, Armstrong, Bell, Edison, etc.. One thing you could answer? I don't know, I personally don't really understand most of your posts. I do love your wit and humor, one can sense the great intelligence behind them...



...crazy, thanks for the compliment! Especially coming from the person who wrote that my belt was Orion's. Now _that_ was bright... (would look for the link but I'm pretty high, and the white wine at tonight's function was fckn awesome - I'm lucky to be typing this coherently  ).


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## Dizzle Frost (Apr 21, 2012)

christians = lion food


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## tyler.durden (Apr 22, 2012)

Dizzle Frost said:


> christians = lion food


I saw a bumper sticker last week that read, 'So many Christians, So few Lions'! Made me laugh and the guy has balls, but I can only imagine the shit he gets for it...


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## Dizzle Frost (Apr 22, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> I saw a bumper sticker last week that read, 'So many Christians, So few Lions'! Made me laugh and the guy has balls, but I can only imagine the shit he gets for it...


thats fucking awesome lol


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## spandy (Apr 22, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Glad to hear there's some other believers out there... Thought I was alone, again...


you are never alone.

besides, most of us just choose not to get into arguments with people we know we wont' have to put up with in the next life.


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## Doer (Apr 22, 2012)

spandy said:


> you are never alone.
> 
> besides, most of us just choose not to get into arguments with people we know we wont' have to put up with in the next life.


You make your heaven and you make your hell. Have a nice "next life." I'm into this life, NOW.

EROsain, we have freedom from religion. "*and i know am messing up with your beliefs" *

To me, that is the tyranny that comes from mistaking it for freedom OF religion. We don't have to support the
beliefs of others. We find out what is true for us. I stay away from "religion" because they have alway claimed 
the right to be violent over speech. 

When they start telling folks what that can and cannot even think or say, we have freedom from that.
When they say you are insulting MY god...
When they say the rest of you will burn in hell...
The rest of you....
The rest of you...

We are free from that.


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## ImAgIaNtInDaGrOwWoRlD (Apr 22, 2012)

NnthStTrls said:


> Fairly certain that if you're a Christian, AND you're on RIU, you're going to hell. . . . . . if you believe in Christianity. .... . . interesting. I've got no hate for you though. Just don't push it on me. Keep it green. Keep it happy.


*Heres what a solid christian believes as far as ganja goes:
God created all things by Him, for Him, and through Him(Christ). Without Him, nothing was made that has been made.
*So we see here that cannabis was created by God. Its self evident as this plant is special above all other plants.

*God warns us to be filled with the Holy Spirit and not with wine.
*The Lords first miracle as God in the flesh was turning water into wine. To understand this you must first understand Jewish wedding ceramonies to know that Jesus was saving the grooms' dad's face for running out of alchohol.
If you need to drink or smoke weed do it with moderation and not as an out-of-control gluttonous starving dog eating a ribeye steak.

*John (the baptist) came neither eating(good food) or drinking (wine)and you say he has a demon. *Spoken by Jesus In the books of Matthew, Mark,Luke, and John I think. 
If someone is called out to be a leader in the Kingdom of Heaven than they should focus on doing there job which will entail self denial of their own plans and wills to be rich and comfortable, and they will be called to suffer for the Kingdom which is a glorious thing to have happen. To be found worthy enough to suffer as the Lord suffered is a praise worthy thing. 

*Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me.. Spoken by Jesus 
*To be a disciple of Jesus means to "follow" Him in the sense that the word follow, in greek, means to "become like". So when the disciples heard Jesus say to "follow" Him, they understood it was to learn to become like Him. In order to become like Him, we must purify ourselves as He is pure. It takes complete dedication to emotional and psychological training. Just like a fighter trains for a fight, we train ourselves to be self controlled and holy as He is holy. We are not perfect, but we get up and learn from our failures and keep going. He IS perfect so His sacrafice for our sins was enough to buy us back from sin and death and cover ALL our sins. God does not "Kick us out" of the family for making mistakes. Only when we decide we want sin more than Him will He let us go to do whatever we wish.

ARE WE GOING TO HELL FOR SMOKING WEED? NO. CAN WE LOOSE OUR SALVATION FOR SMOKING WEED. NO.
CAN WEED LEAD US DOWN A WRONG PATH THAT CAN EVENTUALLY LEAD TO HELL? NO. 
WEED HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING ABOUT HELL OR HEAVEN OR SALVATION OR CONDEMNATION.
ITS A MATTER OF THE HEART. ARE WE BORN AGAIN AND SEALED WITH THE PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT OR NOT? 
THATS ALL THAT MATTERS.

I quit smoking weed for 3 years to do whatI needed to do for God. The time was right and He asked me to take a break. After that time in my life passed He gave me the go ahead and I now grow the sickest buds Ive ever smoked. I gave it up for Him then He turned around and blessed me 100x better than I ever could have thought. There will be a time in my life where I'll give it up again if He asks me too. Its not all black and white. Theres red tape around everything and everyones circumstances. Thats why God asks us not to judge one another. We point to a sliver in our brothers eye when theres a 2x4 in our own. Jesus said that to His disciples. So it all depends on the person. If God asked me to stop again after blessing me richly with all the best weed I can smoke for the last 5 years, and I greedily didnt, then I would be in sin. Thats my own case. Everyone elses walk with God are different.


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## researchkitty (Apr 22, 2012)

ImAgIaNtInDaGrOwWoRlD said:


> I quit smoking weed for 3 years to do whatI needed to do for God. The time was right and He asked me to take a break. After that time in my life passed He gave me the go ahead and I now grow the sickest buds Ive ever smoked.


Right, God asked you to do it. Thank "God" for God. Otherwise, you'd not be a sick bud growerz right? Thank GOD! lol


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## boneheadbob (Apr 22, 2012)

I am no better then anyone else, just a sinner saved by grace, a born again, Bible believing Son of the Living God.


It aint easy being good


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Apr 22, 2012)

makes me laugh , if this forum was based in pakistan or afghan you would all be talking about allah lol funny that it depends on what land mass you are born on dictates wich god speaks to you lol.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 22, 2012)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> makes me laugh , if this forum was based in pakistan or afghan you would all be talking about allah lol funny that it depends on what land mass you are born on dictates wich god speaks to you lol.


...I'm trying to find the humor, but...you see, 'believers' know that this is the same God. *shrugs*


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## ginjawarrior (Apr 22, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...I'm trying to find the humor, but...you see, *'believers' know that this is the same God*. *shrugs*


hmm not sure you've got you head around the whole religous devide thats going on around the world. people cant agree across denominations of religion let alone across different faiths. the idea that they all think they're worshipping the same god is laughable


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 22, 2012)

ginjawarrior said:


> hmm not sure you've got you head around the whole religous devide thats going on around the world. people cant agree across denominations of religion let alone across different faiths. the idea that they all think they're worshipping the same god is laughable



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions


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## ginjawarrior (Apr 22, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions


while the all have the same roots arabs or jews do not consider jesus to be god and you ask many a christian if they are worshipping the same god as allah they would say no.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 22, 2012)

ginjawarrior said:


> while the all have the same roots arabs or jews do not consider jesus to be god and you ask many a christian if they are worshipping the same god as allah they would say no.


Most Christians actually believe Jesus to be the Son of God. Some of them do form a trinity doctrine because of a mistranslation of John 1:1.


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## Dizzle Frost (Apr 22, 2012)

A former Christian


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## researchkitty (Apr 22, 2012)

By the way, GanjaGod, the creator of this thread, isnt you using "God" as your name against the "rules"?


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## researchkitty (Apr 22, 2012)

Dizzle Frost said:


> A former Christian
> 
> View attachment 2133196



Yea, them fuckers bite, HARD dont they? The normal reasonable person never had a chance against those Christian Tigers.........


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## kpmarine (Apr 22, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...I'm trying to find the humor, but...you see, 'believers' know that this is the same God. *shrugs*


I've never met a Christian that believed that, and I was one for 13 years. You may hold that belief, but it wasn't anywhere near a consensus to my knowledge.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 22, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> I've never met a Christian that believed that, and I was one for 13 years. You may hold that belief, but it wasn't anywhere near a consensus to my knowledge.


Allah is the God of Abraham. Jehova is also the God of Abraham. Jesus Christ's father is also, the God of Abraham.

Your beliefs are trumped by facts.


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Apr 22, 2012)

fuckin hillarious , now your saying that everyone is worshiping the same god lol unbelievable the bullshit that comes out from some people lol , theres other religious people not to far away from you that would gladly behead you for worshiping the christian god .
and how incompatent must this one universal all knowing all creating god be to have you all using different religious books from each other all claiming to be gods word . ...........so i guess its ok for a muslim to eat pork coz the bible says so lol


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Apr 22, 2012)

all the people who have died throughout history untill mpresent day coz they believe in a different god lol , but guess what ,,, actually they all got it wrong and everyone is worshiping the same god lol.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 22, 2012)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> all the people who have died throughout history untill mpresent day coz they believe in a different god lol , but guess what ,,, actually they all got it wrong and everyone is worshiping the same god lol.


I'm not saying he exists. I'm just saying that all religions are mistaken.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 22, 2012)

researchkitty said:


> By the way, GanjaGod, the creator of this thread, isnt you using "God" as your name against the "rules"?


 Yeah, itz against the rules... Thatz it... I guess Im totally fucked... Looks like I might see u in hell, after all... Good day, researchpussy...


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## cannabineer (Apr 22, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Yeah, itz against the rules... Thatz it... I guess Im totally fucked... Looks like I might see u in hell, after all... Good day, researchpussy...


What did researchkitty say that was worthy of insult? I'm fairly sure that speaking insults is not approved in the NT. 

So if you're gonna transgress, you might wish to up your game a little. cn

http://old.shipoffools.com/curses/index.html


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 22, 2012)

Only about every word he posted for me in here... I wont sit back and let a bunch of faithless heathens just push me around like some sort of lil bitch... Christian or not... What does it matter? What did I say to deserve the barage of insults, and the numerous bashes to my own faith and beliefs? Why didnt u say something about all that? How bout go back and read this lil love letter a lil bit and then u might figure it out... I tried, but I gave up, and I dont care what u think I should do... I have alot of activities I could think of to tell several folks on here what they should do... U guys think Christians dont sin, or that they dont stand up for themselves, or that we wont come out swingin"??? Wrong assumption... I'll never give it up...


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 22, 2012)

It wouldnt hurt my feelings a bit if u guys wanna go taddle on me and complain, and get me thrown outta here... I wouldnt miss a minute of sleep... If speaking insults isnt approved on here, then I guess Im not alone, then am I?


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## cannabineer (Apr 22, 2012)

GG, you now as well as I do that insult is hardly a reason to get kicked off of RIU. 
In any case, I spoke my support earlier and don't recall having received a response. 
I don't think you should let yourself get pushed around, no.
But really ... to portray some rough&tumble on the Internet as "getting pushed around" does not especially commend your self-confidence. Jmo. cn


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 22, 2012)

And after what Ive seen this thread, I can guarentee u I'll never try to discuss anything other then cultivation on this site... I'm glad people who use hydro systems dont treat soil growers like everyone has treated the tiny Christian populous on here...


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 22, 2012)

U know what I mean by getting pushed around... And I have plenty of confidence, thank u...


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 22, 2012)

If I missed responding to your support, then forgive me... I was neck deep in assholes, trying to swat each one away, as best I could... Fail as I may have, I just started this whole thing to see if a few folks would say something like "yeah, we r here, too", and not start some sort of a "Holy War"... So, now that itz gotten way out of hand, Im just wondering why some "fake God" would spark SO MUCH attention... I mean, if there's nothing to it, but made-up fairy tales, then why is it such a "hot" topic? Almost 200 posts now... Keep em comin... Im on vacation, and can keep this up for a good while...


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 22, 2012)

Sometimes you cant help but hurt others feelings when they cannot accept that their beliefs hold no certainty, no truth value.

That is why it is so much better to have ideas rather than beliefs, there is no reason to get offended over something if it is a thought without truth value (Idea), rather than an idea you claim has certainty(belief).


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## abandonconflict (Apr 22, 2012)

Don't let facts get in the way of your faith.


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 22, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> Don't let facts get in the way of your faith.


That's like saying; "Don't let the things that are the closest approximation to truth get in the way of what you want the truth to be..."


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## mindphuk (Apr 22, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Only about every word he posted for me in here... I wont sit back and let a bunch of faithless heathens just push me around like some sort of lil bitch... Christian or not... What does it matter? What did I say to deserve the barage of insults, and the numerous bashes to my own faith and beliefs? Why didnt u say something about all that? How bout go back and read this lil love letter a lil bit and then u might figure it out... I tried, but I gave up, and I dont care what u think I should do... I have alot of activities I could think of to tell several folks on here what they should do... U guys think Christians dont sin, or that they dont stand up for themselves, or that we wont come out swingin"??? Wrong assumption... I'll never give it up...


It looks like we have another poster that cannot tell the difference between being critical of, or even insulting a belief, and making a personal insult or attack against an individual. I feel comfortable enough in my beliefs and positions because I can defend them using sound, rational arguments.


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## researchkitty (Apr 22, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> If I missed responding to your support, then forgive me... I was neck deep in assholes, trying to swat each one away, as best I could... Fail as I may have, I just started this whole thing to see if a few folks would say something like "yeah, we r here, too", and not start some sort of a "Holy War"... So, now that itz gotten way out of hand, Im just wondering why some "fake God" would spark SO MUCH attention... I mean, if there's nothing to it, but made-up fairy tales, then why is it such a "hot" topic? Almost 200 posts now... Keep em comin... Im on vacation, and can keep this up for a good while...


You STARTED this thread, why are you complaining about REPLIES? With a title of a thread such as "Are there ANY Christians..." what did you expect, a revival? =P


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 22, 2012)

Here, this might help explain things a little better. Hehehe


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 22, 2012)

^ creepy chess player scores zero


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 22, 2012)

ginjawarrior said:


> while the all have the same roots arabs or jews do not consider jesus to be god and you ask many a christian if they are worshipping the same god as allah they would say no.



...I agree with you 100 percent.


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Apr 22, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Only about every word he posted for me in here... I wont sit back and let a bunch of faithless heathens just push me around like some sort of lil bitch... Christian or not... What does it matter? What did I say to deserve the barage of insults, and the numerous bashes to my own faith and beliefs? Why didnt u say something about all that? How bout go back and read this lil love letter a lil bit and then u might figure it out... I tried, but I gave up, and I dont care what u think I should do... I have alot of activities I could think of to tell several folks on here what they should do... U guys think Christians dont sin, or that they dont stand up for themselves, or that we wont come out swingin"??? Wrong assumption... I'll never give it up...


theres nothing more irrational than a butt hurt christian .


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## abandonconflict (Apr 22, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> GG, you now as well as I do that insult is hardly a reason to get kicked off of RIU.
> In any case, I spoke my support earlier and don't recall having received a response.
> I don't think you should let yourself get pushed around, no.
> But really ... to portray some rough&tumble on the Internet as "getting pushed around" does not especially commend your self-confidence. Jmo. cn


I started off peacefully too. I was intrigued that one might state a biblical case for (or against) the use of cannabis. He decided to be offended by that so I just started a thread to ask that question.


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## Dizzle Frost (Apr 22, 2012)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> theres nothing more irrational than a butt hurt christian .


thats pretty acurate lol


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## abandonconflict (Apr 22, 2012)

lol... Monkey Metamorphosis. Yeah you're a clown bro.


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## Heisenberg (Apr 22, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions


If the abrahamic gods are all the same, then why does geographical location determine which flavor people see? Why do followers of Allah not have visions confirming Jesus? No doubt these are all branches of the same superstition, but the fact that they branched is evidence of human fallibility, not some divine construct.

What about those poor bastards in India? What about the Greeks? 

You seem to be ignoring that geographical location is only part of it. Which god you subscribe to has a great deal to do with chronological location as well.


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## ImAgIaNtInDaGrOwWoRlD (Apr 23, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> And after what Ive seen this thread, I can guarentee u I'll never try to discuss anything other then cultivation on this site... I'm glad people who use hydro systems dont treat soil growers like everyone has treated the tiny Christian populous on here...


Did Jesus force his teachings on anyone? Or did He teach that if someone doesnt want to hear it, leave them and wipe the very dust off your feet out of protest as you leave.
Remember. Some people are destined to never believe and be saved. ITS ONLY BY REVALTION FROM GOD HIMSELF CAN WE UNDERSTAND WHATS WRITTEN. Please dont let yourself be compramised by non-believers. Remember Bad company corrupts good character, rather than the other way around.
Jesus also taught NOT to throw your pearls to pigs, least they be trampled underfoot, which is what your experiencing right now. You know in your heart whats right because God allowed you to see it but now its up to you to continue training your spiritual strength to overcome all adversity to your flesh.


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## Nitegazer (Apr 23, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> I started off peacefully too. I was intrigued that one might state a biblical case for (or against) the use of cannabis. He decided to be offended by that so I just started a thread to ask that question.




This is rather old information, but here you go...

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_there_references_to_cannabis_in_the_Old_and_New_Testaments

Much of it hinges on words that are similar, or have similar roots, so the link isn't conclusive.


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## ginjawarrior (Apr 23, 2012)

Nitegazer said:


> This is rather old information, but here you go...
> 
> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_there_references_to_cannabis_in_the_Old_and_New_Testaments
> 
> Much of it hinges on words that are similar, or have similar roots, so the link isn't conclusive.


lol the bible wouldnt be the bible if its messages weren't dripping with ambiguity


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 23, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> If the abrahamic gods are all the same, then why does geographical location determine which flavor people see? Why do followers of Allah not have visions confirming Jesus? No doubt these are all branches of the same superstition, but the fact that they branched is evidence of human fallibility, not some divine construct.
> 
> What about those poor bastards in India? What about the Greeks?
> 
> You seem to be ignoring that geographical location is only part of it. Which god you subscribe to has a great deal to do with chronological location as well.


...sure it has to do with location. The splintering of the tree, as it were, is _the_ result of human fallibility. The flavoring is just that. Different people saw the same images according to their ancestry, and recorded it that way. That is a heavily psychological aspect of worldviews. I don't know that it could have been otherwise.


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## ginjawarrior (Apr 23, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...sure it has to do with location. The splintering of the tree, as it were, is _the_ result of human fallibility. The flavoring is just that. Different people saw the same images according to their ancestry, and recorded it that way. That is a heavily psychological aspect of worldviews. I don't know that it could have been otherwise.


i could see it happening in an entirely different way. if it was the true unambiguous word of god then there certainly wouldnt be the confusion we have now


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## Doer (Apr 23, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> Allah is the God of Abraham. Jehova is also the God of Abraham. Jesus Christ's father is also, the God of Abraham.
> 
> Your beliefs are trumped by facts.


These are facts?


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## Doer (Apr 23, 2012)

See, I think there is something. I can feel it. It's a very subtle thing, that if you don't believe enough to look, It can't find you, if you are only nattering mind. IT needs a still mind to communicate.

Is it GOD? Is it Super-Conciousness? Is it another part of Self we don't know about? I'm sure now, it's more than just sobbing for immortality. In fact, immortality is the most preposterous of all claims.

But, I think, the only thing that is worse than blindly following a religion, is to practice abject denial about other parts of "higher" Self. IT, in my experience, needs no proof or claim, IT is IT. But, to seek IT, requires an itch to seek. Atheist have no itch but denial.


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## Doer (Apr 23, 2012)

*"ITS ONLY BY REVALTION FROM GOD HIMSELF CAN WE UNDERSTAND WHATS WRITTEN. Please dont let yourself be compramised by non-believers. Remember Bad company corrupts good character, rather than the other way around.*"

This is such a good example of condecension and cult logic. You can't understand the cult unitl you believe in the cult.

So judgemental. Folks want to discuss the subject precisely because of the snide tyranny and causual violence of thought.
Hiding behiind freedom from religion, but expecting all of us to at least, support their beliefs. That's not in the Consitution.

Who says you have good character and we don't?> Christians often seem of low character, quite touchy, and smug.

"Lord, thank you that I am not like other men."


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## Heisenberg (Apr 23, 2012)

Doer said:


> See, I think there is something. I can feel it. It's a very subtle thing, that if you don't believe enough to look, It can't find you, if you are only nattering mind. IT needs a still mind to communicate.
> 
> Is it GOD? Is it Super-Conciousness? Is it another part of Self we don't know about? I'm sure now, it's more than just sobbing for immortality. In fact, immortality is the most preposterous of all claims.
> 
> But, I think, the only thing that is worse than blindly following a religion, is to practice abject denial about other parts of "higher" Self. IT, in my experience, needs no proof or claim, IT is IT. But, to seek IT, requires an itch to seek. Atheist have no itch but denial.



An atheist must be shown something which passes doubt before he is able to deny. In the case of God, the atheist hasn't been convinced that there is anything to deny. In the case of super consciousnesses or higher self, I can not say, because each atheist will have their own view. The sort of God an atheist doubts has a pretty clear definition.


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## dwcannan (Apr 23, 2012)

amen brother i cant bash anyone for their beleifs but somtimes people on here do take it to far with the whole god bashing thing buts its ok like i said i dont take it personal its just ignorent somtimes how much people can be so one minded i beleive but im not forcing my beleifes on other people


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## abandonconflict (Apr 23, 2012)

Doer said:


> These are facts?


These are facts in the sense that that is what the "holy books" claim.


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## cannabineer (Apr 23, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> These are facts in the sense that that is what the "holy books" claim.


But that right there perfectly captures the frustration that some feel when perusing holy texts ... circularity. From a rationalist's perspective, there is no good in believing in a book because the book certifies its own truthfulness. So for most Christians (or other Abrahamic believers) there must be something more, external to text, that supports the belief. For some, it is a personal mystical experience. For others, it's accession to social/cultural pressure, simply having gone to church/mosque/etc. all of one's life and being comfy with it. For others yet ... other yet. Bottom line ... it is invariably something that isn't communicable to a hypothetical rationalist's satisfaction. When I see the word "fact" I assume and ultimately require the process by which it was verified. In its way it is a stricter term than "truth".
Impasse. cn


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## abandonconflict (Apr 23, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> But that right there perfectly captures the frustration that some feel when perusing holy texts ... circularity. From a rationalist's perspective, there is no good in believing in a book because the book certifies its own truthfulness. So for most Christians (or other Abrahamic believers) there must be something more, external to text, that supports the belief. For some, it is a personal mystical experience. For others, it's accession to social/cultural pressure, simply having gone to church/mosque/etc. all of one's life and being comfy with it. For others yet ... other yet. Bottom line ... it is invariably something that isn't communicable to a hypothetical rationalist's satisfaction. When I see the word "fact" I assume and ultimately require the process by which it was verified. In its way it is a stricter term than "truth".
> Impasse. cn


I agree thoroughly. I think one of my first exposures to it was a bumper sticker meme that actually hit me pretty hard. "God exists because the book says so, the book can't be false because God wrote it."


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## jessy koons (Apr 23, 2012)

*Believe in Me and only believe in Me*

Believe in me and abandon all hope in false books. By focusing only on me, there will be no time in your life to look elsewhere at false gods. I am the only one to give hope and love in equal measure, all other measurements of hope and love are false ratios. Beware of these false ratios for they are false. Bicarbonate of Soda is a true leavening, do not use false leavening when preparing breads that call for leavening. When preparing unleavened bread use only false leavening as it is mush less expensive then using unleavening that has been blessed by me for a small fee.
I have been begot by my Mother and by my Father and by No one else. Any who claim to begot me are false and speak falsely of begetting. 

In my six week course you can learn to write in confusing and inconsistent text just like the Bible and other long books do. Use made up words and string them together in incomplete sentences just like your favorite prophets. If you write to me in the next 24 hours I will personally draw, in excruciating detail, and then burn in a hellish fire, your personal life chart at no extra charge to you or anyone else. If you order today I will also include pictures of me taking a nice warm bath in a fancy robe. 

Why wait? I've got envelopes to put stuff in and a moist sponge, so don't delay. If you order today, soon you can be writing sentences like this. "Verily, none can be without me who are not with me in truth, and dare thee to not be without." Pretty impressive stuff for sure. If I can write these important and confusing sentences then you can too. Order today and I'll stuff some things in an envelope by tomorrow and mail it in the afternoon so you can receive it in 4-6 weeks. Please speak loudly when ordering.


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## Nitegazer (Apr 23, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> But that right there perfectly captures the frustration that some feel when perusing holy texts ... circularity. From a rationalist's perspective, there is no good in believing in a book because the book certifies its own truthfulness. So for most Christians (or other Abrahamic believers) there must be something more, external to text, that supports the belief. For some, it is a personal mystical experience. For others, it's accession to social/cultural pressure, simply having gone to church/mosque/etc. all of one's life and being comfy with it. For others yet ... other yet. Bottom line ... it is invariably something that isn't communicable to a hypothetical rationalist's satisfaction. When I see the word "fact" I assume and ultimately require the process by which it was verified. In its way it is a stricter term than "truth".
> Impasse. cn


There are actually a couple reasons for this circularity. I think a lot of stress comes from not differentiating them.

* Some concepts are inherently circular/self-contradictory (eg. doing/not-doing in Buddhism, meaninglessness/responsibility in Existentialism) this kind of contradiction invites thought and does not reflect negatively on the faith in question.

* Existence over a great time span (eg. goat sacrifice in Judaism). Things change, particularly over millennia, and religious adherents adjust their 'interpretation' if not the text itself (like the US Constitution). Most sensible people recognize that no text over 1,000 years can hold all of its historic relevence.

* Attempts to bring several religious factions together (eg. Paul's writings in the New Testament). It's important to note that the 'founders' of the major religions did very little of the writing. In most faiths, the majority of writing takes place many years after the initial 'prophet' it dead.

* Corruption of the faith as it is institutionalized-- tough call here. To some extent, this is the creation of the Catechism for Roman Catholicism, the Talmud in Judaism and the Sharia in Islam. All you can do is stick with the earliest text of the movement, before it was institutionalized. If you want rules, read the later works; if you want wisdom, read the earlier (along with good translational notes).

If you're interested in some good scholarly material on wisdom literature, I'd be happy to post some.


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## carl.burnette (Apr 23, 2012)

Born again hard baby... I like the open minded i get when i hit the pipe then the Word. Very eye opening. Pastor father isnt impressed, but he likes the idea that I read God's Word daily. Weed has opened my heart up to the Lord in ways that 35 years of attending church never did. Its all about personal relationship with the Lord. Not what you wear, where you worship ect ect. Love your God with all your heart, love your neighbour more than yourself. The rest is window dressing.


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## BongTokinAlcoholic420 (Apr 23, 2012)

I know God is real because I am alive.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 23, 2012)

BongTokinAlcoholic420 said:


> I know God is real because I am alive.


Who created God?


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## jessy koons (Apr 23, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> Who created God?


I did, sorry


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## DreamTime (Apr 23, 2012)

jessy koons said:


> I did, sorry


And you think a sorry will suffice?


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## jessy koons (Apr 23, 2012)

DreamTime said:


> And you think a sorry will suffice?


Sadly, sorry isn't enough, I know. As a way to mitigate my foolishness I have been working with confused Catholic school girls for the last few weeks and I will continue providing them justice, the old fashioned way, until someone catches me. I have thrown 7 Hail Mary's and I drank 5 Our Fathers to try to make amends for my mistake. I know that this isn't enough but I am trying.


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## PJ Diaz (Apr 23, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> All I see is a bunch of God-bashing, monkey-metamorphisis, space alien, crazy-ass beliefs, on here, and being a minister of the Universal Life Church, I'm almost tempted to roll up shop and go elsewhere... Just wondering... Little bit of a check here.... I am tolerant of anyones beliefs, but there is a great in-tolerance of anything Christian I ever say when people talk about their far-fetched, man-made, dreamed up concoctions of science and sci-fi, and whatever... Whatever happenned to just believing that Christ died for our sins, and that God created everything, including cannabis, which is clearly pointed out, and spoken HIGHLY of many times in The Bible? Anyone? Seriously, anyone?


Universal Life Church? That's the one you do online so you can marry your buddy and his wife on the cheap, right? My friend did that at one point.

Personally I don't have a problem with Christian beliefs, in fact the beliefs have a lot of merit in and of themselves. The problem is [begin massive prejudiced generalization] that many christains spend more time shoving their belief system down your throat that practicing it themselves. Furthermore, they thing that they have the right to decide what belief system everyone else should have, and are intolerant of any beliefs which are contrary to or threaten their own set of beliefs [end massive prejudiced generalization].


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## Heisenberg (Apr 23, 2012)

BongTokinAlcoholic420 said:


> I know God is real because I am alive.


My grandma knows God isn't real because she is dead.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 23, 2012)

^ atheist?


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## Heisenberg (Apr 23, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ^ atheist?


Absurdist.


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## Doer (Apr 23, 2012)

Isn't this a perfect time to mention Scientology?

BTW, just so we understand each other...you mean the cloying religious, force fed, hell and damnation sort?
Not the, that's amazing and no way can I truely describe it, sort, right? 

*The sort of God an atheist doubts has a pretty clear definition. *


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 23, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Absurdist.



...nudist? Gawwwd nooo  Unless it's Suzanne Somers, then it's _kind of_ ok.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 23, 2012)

Doer said:


> *The sort of God an atheist doubts has a pretty clear definition. *


...and yet we're asked to describe that God - sometimes we can't. Does that rend discussion futile? I don't see why it would. Some people are flighty and some people are in danger of painting everything around them stark white. 




Eggshell.


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## Claude Bawls (Apr 23, 2012)

NnthStTrls said:


> Fairly certain that if you're a Christian, AND you're on RIU, you're going to hell. . . . . . if you believe in Christianity. .... . . interesting. I've got no hate for you though. Just don't push it on me. Keep it green. Keep it happy.


Why should an RIU member or any cannabis user or afficianado be automatically condemned to Hell? God gave us cannabis, it is his noble herb. Too say that any Christian that uses cannabis is damned, is to say that there is an inherrant evil in the use of the herb ala Harry Anslinger. I have very personal Christian beliefs, I do not attempt to proslatize any other person to my faith. I am assuming you are not involved with a God of your understanding and that is your perogative. But since that is true, how can you claim anyone else is certainly going to a place that in the philosophy of most posters here does not even exist?


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## Heisenberg (Apr 23, 2012)

Doer said:


> Isn't this a perfect time to mention Scientology?
> 
> BTW, just so we understand each other...you mean the cloying religious, force fed, hell and damnation sort?
> Not the, that's amazing and no way can I truely describe it, sort, right?
> ...





eye exaggerate said:


> ...and yet we're asked to describe that God - sometimes we can't. Does that rend discussion futile? I don't see why it would. Some people are flighty and some people are in danger of painting everything around them stark white.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The assertion that was made > Atheist have no itch but denial.

My point was, there is nothing about atheism which necessarily prevents someone from believing in higher states of consciousnesses, or a collective will, or magic aliens. Atheists reject the conclusion of a supernatural deity. Not all atheists reject theism out of logic or doubt. If you add skeptic as an attribute, then I agree with the premise, but not the conclusion of denial. Doubt is different than denial, and a skeptics rejection of a conclusion usually comes after examination of evidence. Most skeptics have a real itch for discovery.


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## mindphuk (Apr 24, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...and yet we're asked to describe that God - sometimes we can't. Does that rend discussion futile? I don't see why it would. Some people are flighty and some people are in danger of painting everything around them stark white.


Yes, it renders any _meaningful _discussion futile. 

The problem with discussing something for which you cannot give any definitions is that it allows for moving the goalposts much too easy. Which, IMO, is the reason people like you want to leave the boundaries vague and undefined. If you can't define it you don't have to defend it. 

How can I discuss something for which you haven't even explained to me exactly what we are discussing? How can you discuss something if you cannot even explain what it is you want to discuss?


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 24, 2012)

Hu-rah! Glad to hear this one...


carl.burnette said:


> Born again hard baby... I like the open minded i get when i hit the pipe then the Word. Very eye opening. Pastor father isnt impressed, but he likes the idea that I read God's Word daily. Weed has opened my heart up to the Lord in ways that 35 years of attending church never did. Its all about personal relationship with the Lord. Not what you wear, where you worship ect ect. Love your God with all your heart, love your neighbour more than yourself. The rest is window dressing.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 24, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Yes, it renders any _meaningful _discussion futile.
> 
> The problem with discussing something for which you cannot give any definitions is that it allows for moving the goalposts much too easy. Which, IMO, is the reason people like you want to leave the boundaries vague and undefined. If you can't define it you don't have to defend it.
> 
> How can I discuss something for which you haven't even explained to me exactly what we are discussing? How can you discuss something if you cannot even explain what it is you want to discuss?


...people 'like me' do not want to leave open boundaries. What we're discussing is not a science you can touch. So, you're right, it's futile to discuss with people who have to have a material reference.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 24, 2012)

I'll second that one, too...


BongTokinAlcoholic420 said:


> I know God is real because I am alive.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 24, 2012)

Right with ya... It just pisses me off, after I read 1,000+ anti-God posts, and I finally nut up and wanna snap necks... I know it is a bad example, but sometimes we gotta buck up a lil and stand up for our beliefs...


dwcannan said:


> amen brother i cant bash anyone for their beleifs but somtimes people on here do take it to far with the whole god bashing thing buts its ok like i said i dont take it personal its just ignorent somtimes how much people can be so one minded i beleive but im not forcing my beleifes on other people


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 24, 2012)

You THINK god is real because you have the ability to THINK... 

"Don't tell me how to think!"

I don't have to, you let others do it for you. I say, why not come up with an original idea, something YOU made up, rather than fallow an idea that your parents told you a long ass time ago.

Wouldn't it be much cooler to think that were all hooked up to machines in the future and when we die here....we just wake up and we get to pick whatever kind of existence we want to pick next? I mean dude, it took me all but like 10 seconds to think up that one, im sure if you guys put your minds to it, you can think up one that is waaaaaaaaay more cool than the ideas you have been borrowing from other people. The least you could do is be like, "yea, your borrowed idea sounds nice and all... but my idea is way more fuckin cool than that because im the one who actually made it up!"


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## brotherjericho (Apr 24, 2012)

NnthStTrls said:


> Fairly certain that if you're a Christian, AND you're on RIU, you're going to hell. . . . . . if you believe in Christianity. .... . . interesting. I've got no hate for you though. Just don't push it on me. Keep it green. Keep it happy.


Dude, did you miss that whole scene with Moses and the burning bush? What do you think the bush was?


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## Doer (Apr 24, 2012)

I think, therefore I am.....I think


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## kevin (Apr 24, 2012)

I've been fighting with faith for years and I believe common sense has finally over taken any thoughts of there really being any kind of god. Here's a couple of questions for my christian friends.
My cousin is having part of her leg amputated this morning because of diabetes and her parents are asking the family to lift them up in prayer. If prayer worked why didn't god cure her before it got this far? Another one for you. after you die, how could you be enjoying treasures in heaven when you know family and friends are burning in hell? Please enlighten me.


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## carl.burnette (Apr 24, 2012)

The problem most people have is their confusing religion with God. HE made the golden rule. Are you going to hell if you smoke weed? If you think it's bad & you do it than yes. IF God hasn't given you that conviction that I believe your fine. 

The chief priest used to sacrifice to cover the known & unknown sins of the people. This was things like for example you didn't know that the egg flipper was used to turn bacon before you used it to flip your egg. You're in sin because of it, but you had no idea so the sacrifice covered those sins. Jesus was the final sacrifice for known & unknown sins. If you've never heard the word of God, you still have that conscience. HOws does that jungle tribe that have no civilization or laws know that its unlawful to kill your neighbor? 

I believe God's will is written in everyones heart & becoming a Christian is opening that part up & giving GOd control of your life through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus.

Yes, positive thinking, the secret, various other activities seem like they are in God's will, but its the end game that counts. Any monkey can get in a car & hit the gas. It will go forward. Just not where you want it to end up. I look at Gods word that way.

You can visualize things & they will come true, speak it & it will happen, all that sort of thing, but if its not in God's plan for you the end game is gonna suck.

Anyways, GOds loves you & so do I. Jesus is the way to ensure eternal salvation as God's word says. Besides, if Im wrong, the worst thing I've done is spent my life beliveiving that a great God is watching over me & taking me where he will. If I'm right, unbelievers are fucked. 

Better safe than sorry  
ps. THe instant I am convinced or the Lord convinces me that weed is a sin, than I'm off it. BUt that hasnt happened yet. I look at the fruits of the spirit. Since smoking weed & reading the bible I've grown closer to him daily. That's not to say that getting all dopped up & drooling on the couch is the plan. Its more a splif to open my heart & head up to the Lords word & plan for my life.

God Bless & All that good stuff 

Later.


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## merkzilla (Apr 24, 2012)

When I was younger, I was a basher. After a while when all I saw were bashers I quietly went to the other side of the debate. 

I'm not christian/religious/spiritual, not an atheist nor an agnostic at this point. Pondering unanswerable questions too long is a quick trip to schizophrenia. Religion helps some people feel better about their situations, or the circumstances of their life. Faith for some is hope that if they continue being a good person, things will be sorted later down the road. I really don't feel there's much a point in knocking people over for it. As far as zealots and people who act downright irrational, they exist in any group or segment of society. I'm not bothered by it.


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## jessy koons (Apr 24, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> The problem most people have is their confusing religion with God. HE made the golden rule. Are you going to hell if you smoke weed? If you think it's bad & you do it than yes. IF God hasn't given you that conviction that I believe your fine.
> 
> The chief priest used to sacrifice to cover the known & unknown sins of the people. This was things like for example you didn't know that the egg flipper was used to turn bacon before you used it to flip your egg. You're in sin because of it, but you had no idea so the sacrifice covered those sins. Jesus was the final sacrifice for known & unknown sins. If you've never heard the word of God, you still have that conscience. HOws does that jungle tribe that have no civilization or laws know that its unlawful to kill your neighbor?
> 
> ...


What a huge pile of childish blather this is. You should be ashamed for offering these paltry beliefs as consequential.


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## Doer (Apr 24, 2012)

I think the answer might be more frightening. We had to invent time and now time is our master. It doesn't exist, yet it rules our existence. I'm not going to re-tread my ideas on Now. They are in other posts. Let's just agree that when we die, time collapses for us.

We know the mind is subject to vast and apparently limitless time dilations. Asleep or awake. What if we make our heaven and we make our hell? It's quite common to hear reports about "my entire life flashed in front of me." More incredible time dilation. "Time stood still while the accident happen." On an on, we live in elastic preception, and to make sense of that, we invented time.

We also know the brain releases all it's dopamine, and other chemicals at death which can make a pleasure dream or mixed with fear can make a hellish dream. What if, with the proper knowledge and training, that last micosecond of death dream can be Eternity, thru time dilation?


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## carl.burnette (Apr 24, 2012)

??? I don't understand your point. Why would you judge my beliefs? Am I not staunch enough? You want strict? I don't get your point.

OH well. ITs ok.. I wont lose any sleep over it. I wasn't trying to start an argument. Just stating my opinion. If you disagree that's ok. I have no issues at all.

Enjoy the buds of the day & I hope you find what your looking for in life & I hope you will experience what I have. If not, that's ok too.

Grumble grumble. Bitching about someone's beliefs is like complaining that they like chocolate ice-cream, because you don't like it. You don't have to eat it. Everyone can have whatever type of ice cream they want. We'll all find out at the end what the best kind was. 

Good luck


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## Heisenberg (Apr 24, 2012)

Doer said:


> I think the answer might be more frightening. We had to invent time and now time is our master. It doesn't exist, yet it rules our existence. I'm not going to re-tread my ideas on Now. They are in other posts. Let's just agree that when we die, time collapses for us.
> 
> We know the mind is subject to vast and apparently limitless time dilations. Asleep or awake. What if we make our heaven and we make our hell? It's quite common to hear reports about "my entire life flashed in front of me." More incredible time dilation. "Time stood still while the accident happen." On an on, we live in elastic preception, and to make sense of that, we invented time.
> 
> We also know the brain releases all it's dopamine, and other chemicals at death which can make a pleasure dream or mixed with fear can make a hellish dream. What if, with the proper knowledge and training, that last micosecond of death dream can be Eternity, thru time dilation?


Very interesting philosophical argument for the existence of heaven/hell. I shall enjoy pondering this.


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## Doer (Apr 24, 2012)

The big mistake is confusing WORD. Just go back to the history of what that means, and you will see it shoehorned into 
the Bible in the proper context. We just simply have it wrong these days.

"The WORD made flesh." Gushy emotion. Attributing deity. Deity is a made up concept. To say Jesus was the WORD is devotion. 
Not words in a book. The book didn't exist. It is a compendium edited and produced by a single man for the Emperor Constantine.

Christians today worship a book. It's idolatry. The WORD, refers to all vibration of the entire "reality." The concept is in all creeds 
thru all times. God's breath. The utterance of GOD. The Tao. The WORD is not a political/social manfesto called the B I B L E. Not a secret conversation with a TV minister. (such is claimed, with sickening frequency)

EDIT: I also need to inject some science here. Quantum String Theory. The Harmony of the Spheres. Grand Unified Theory.
The Greeks were sure, as was Albert E., there is a Constant. The Greeks called it the 5th Element. Earth Air Fire Water Aether.

All these concepts refer to WORD, in my opinion.


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## jessy koons (Apr 24, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> ??? I don't understand your point. Why would you judge my beliefs? Am I not staunch enough? You want strict? I don't get your point.
> 
> OH well. ITs ok.. I wont lose any sleep over it. I wasn't trying to start an argument. Just stating my opinion. If you disagree that's ok. I have no issues at all.
> 
> ...


Of course I'm judging your beliefs because they are so far outside what an adult, rational mind is capable of believing in. Do you really believe that sacrifice, i.e. death to some innocent creature, is really a cure for 'unknown sins'? Do you really believe that jesus is some type of umbrella insurance sacrifice meant to cover our collective asses against a quick trip to hell for unknowingly committing a sin du jour. 

I like chocolate ice cream a lot but what you're offering is asphalt ice cream: from a distance it looks kind of like ice cream but when you get up close, you can see clearly that it is inedible and probably poisonous.


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## carl.burnette (Apr 24, 2012)

Wow.. Im the judgmental Christian. I'm the one that's supposed to judge YOUR beliefs as crazy  Some people believe praying while focusing on a crystal will work, some people believe that mother nature is the way to go. I wouldn't judge any of them. I will certainly judge my own heart & motives, but not theirs.

OK. Here's a situation. We have been able to send out & receive radio waves for about 100 years (give or take) so, to accurately measure anything in space, the most we can say in absolute terms is that something is 50 or less light years away. (50 years to hit the thing, 50 years for it to bounce back) anything other than that is faith based. 

You can argue doppler effect & triangulation all you like, but look at the sounds barrier. & my numbers are approximates so don't jump on me. Just read for now.

It takes say 100 horse power to get to 699 miles an hour. Logic & what not says that to get to 700 miles an hour would take 6.99 more hp to reach 700 MPH (the sound barrier). In actuality, it took several hundred more HP to break the sound barrier. 

All our scientific "proofs" are simply faith based on what is perceived as logic. Maybe once your reach past the planets you can fly faster than light, maybe it all warps, who the hell knows. We will never know until we're there. until we made it past the sound barrier (700 mps approx) we were quite wrong.

If you don't like my beliefs, that's ok. I have no problem with it. I wont argue right or wrong. That's between God & yourself or myself. Its very personal & I would never insult someone's beliefs. I may argue as to why "I' believe something, but that's about it. If you want to worship purple squirrels that sing kumbiyah all the power to you. 

That's the true freedom that worshipping the Lord provides. & I'm a big fan 

Burning books, forcing as certain clothing style or food restrictions & forcing your religion on someone is COMPLETELY NOT the kind of Christian I'm talking about. Jesus hung out with the scum of the age then. Prostitutes & tax collectors. He said he came for the sick not the healthy. That's the kind of Jesus I want in my life & that's what I got.

I know you think I'm a nut & that's ok but I sincerely hope that you find the peace that I've gotten from Christ. It's free & if you don't like it or it doesn't work for you, fuck it. Drop him like a hot potato. But don't knock it till you try it  He might surprise you, in a good way.

Good luck.


jessy koons said:


> Of course I'm judging your beliefs because they are so far outside what an adult, rational mind is capable of believing in. Do you really believe that sacrifice, i.e. death to some innocent creature, is really a cure for 'unknown sins'? Do you really believe that jesus is some type of umbrella insurance sacrifice meant to cover our collective asses against a quick trip to hell for unknowingly committing a sin du jour.
> 
> I like chocolate ice cream a lot but what you're offering is asphalt ice cream: from a distance it looks kind of like ice cream but when you get up close, you can see clearly that it is inedible and probably poisonous.


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## carl.burnette (Apr 24, 2012)

Adult rational mind.. when did we get those? Is it rational to eat more than you burn & complain that your fat? Is it rational to spend more than you earn & then wonder why your broke?? There are many things we do that are not of an "adult rational mind" I don't think that really comes in to any sort of calculation really. Rational to create a bomb that not only destroys the enemy, but the lands too making them useless. Can't even enjoy the spoils of the war because the lands are glowing for 500 years. 

Believing in some form of higher power is probably one of the most "rational minded" things we can do. There isn't a nation. people,. race or group that doesn't worship something. It's in our DNA so there must be something to it. 

Or the other option is that the 1-2% of the world that denies any form of deity is correct.

That could be too. BUt I like the odds better on the faith side.



jessy koons said:


> Of course I'm judging your beliefs because they are so far outside what an adult, rational mind is capable of believing in. Do you really believe that sacrifice, i.e. death to some innocent creature, is really a cure for 'unknown sins'? Do you really believe that jesus is some type of umbrella insurance sacrifice meant to cover our collective asses against a quick trip to hell for unknowingly committing a sin du jour.
> 
> I like chocolate ice cream a lot but what you're offering is asphalt ice cream: from a distance it looks kind of like ice cream but when you get up close, you can see clearly that it is inedible and probably poisonous.


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## Nitegazer (Apr 24, 2012)

kevin said:


> I've been fighting with faith for years and I believe common sense has finally over taken any thoughts of there really being any kind of god. Here's a couple of questions for my christian friends.
> My cousin is having part of her leg amputated this morning because of diabetes and her parents are asking the family to lift them up in prayer. If prayer worked why didn't god cure her before it got this far? Another one for you. after you die, how could you be enjoying treasures in heaven when you know family and friends are burning in hell? Please enlighten me.


Kevin,

I think this quote from an interview between Dan Rather and Mother Teresa in 1998 speaks to this.

Dan Rather: What do you say to God when you pray?
Mother Teresa: I listen.
Dan Rather: Well, what does God have to say?
Mother Teresa: He listens.

The point is that prayer isn't a magic spell, prayer changes the one who prays.

Regarding hell (as in a place of damnation)-- one need not believe in it to be a Christian. Most of the damnation stuff was from Paul.


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## Heisenberg (Apr 24, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> Adult rational mind.. when did we get those? Is it rational to eat more than you burn & complain that your fat? Is it rational to spend more than you earn & then wonder why your broke?? There are many things we do that are not of an "adult rational mind" I don't think that really comes in to any sort of calculation really. Rational to create a bomb that not only destroys the enemy, but the lands too making them useless. Can't even enjoy the spoils of the war because the lands are glowing for 500 years.


Most skeptics appeal to rationality in the context of seeking truthful answers. No doubt humans do some senseless acts based on senseless goals, but that is no reason to discount careful and rigorous examination when it comes to gaining knowledge. 



> Believing in some form of higher power is probably one of the most "rational minded" things we can do. There isn't a nation. people,. race or group that doesn't worship something. It's in our DNA so there must be something to it.
> 
> Or the other option is that the 1-2% of the world that denies any form of deity is correct.
> 
> That could be too. BUt I like the odds better on the faith side.


For something to be rational it must be based on some sort of reason and fact. Something that is based solely on faith, dogma or tradition can not be rational. The argument from popularity is demonstrably irrational. If every race and creed on the planet believed the moon was made of cheese, it wouldn't effect the truth value of the idea.


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## jessy koons (Apr 24, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> Wow.. Im the judgmental Christian. I'm the one that's supposed to judge YOUR beliefs as crazy  Some people believe praying while focusing on a crystal will work, some people believe that mother nature is the way to go. I wouldn't judge any of them. I will certainly judge my own heart & motives, but not theirs.
> 
> OK. Here's a situation. We have been able to send out & receive radio waves for about 100 years (give or take) so, to accurately measure anything in space, the most we can say in absolute terms is that something is 50 or less light years away. (50 years to hit the thing, 50 years for it to bounce back) anything other than that is faith based.
> 
> ...


I don't think you are nuts, but I do think that you have adopted religious dogma without asking the most basic of questions, questions that you would never forgo in almost any other aspect in your life. An example question is: why would god create hidden 'unknown sins'? Why is killing something the correct method to appease god for committing an 'unknown sin'. Could there be something wrong in killing innocent creatures.

You started on the right track with the question about jungle tribes and their knowledge about christian lawlessness. Unfortunately the 'question' was full of hidden prejudice such as thinking that they have no civilization or laws to guide them. Many jungle tribes are much more peaceful and kind to their neighbors than are many modern city residents lorded over by theocratic ideology. Many of the jungle civilizations have been in existence much longer than christian philosophy so one has to wonder, did christians learn morality from the jungle people? 

One last question: if you and god love me as you stated in a previous post then why am I 'fucked' as an unbeliever? Hava nice day


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 24, 2012)

...maybe it could be said in this way:

- Believers follow tradition, so that means aeons of experiences handed down. That is 'truth' to them.
- Non-Believers examine the particles, etc. That is 'truth' to them.

...in my humblest of opinions they should share the playground if they want to play smart.


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## carl.burnette (Apr 24, 2012)

jessy koons said:


> I don't think you are nuts, but I do think that you have adopted religious dogma without asking the most basic of questions, questions that you would never forgo in almost any other aspect in your life. An example question is: why would god create hidden 'unknown sins'? Why is killing something the correct method to appease god for committing an 'unknown sin'. Could there be something wrong in killing innocent creatures.
> 
> You started on the right track with the question about jungle tribes and their knowledge about christian lawlessness. Unfortunately the 'question' was full of hidden prejudice such as thinking that they have no civilization or laws to guide them. Many jungle tribes are much more peaceful and kind to their neighbors than are many modern city residents lorded over by theocratic ideology. Many of the jungle civilizations have been in existence much longer than christian philosophy so one has to wonder, did christians learn morality from the jungle people?
> 
> One last question: if you and god love me as you stated in a previous post then why am I 'fucked' as an unbeliever? Hava nice day


I don't knowhow to break up a quote, sorry hope this makes sense. When I said your fucked, I mean if my beliefs are correct, without God's approval your toast. This is my opinion based on what I believe to be true in the bible. I could be wrong, thats why I said I don't judge anyone. I have no idea what others are going to do I just know what my faith leads me to believe. I didn't mean it harsh. Its just how I talk. I guess the better way to say it is that I believe that when we die, we are held accountable for what we've done. I believe that the death of Christ was the punishment for my sins & for anyone else's who calls on his name to be saved. It doesn't mean Im correct, I believe I am, but I really won't know for sure till I get there. Based on that, my beliefs are that if you do not accept Jesus, then God will find you unacceptable & your toast. Once again. THis is my belief based on my studying of the bible.

As for religious dogma, hell, I'm one of the least religious persons I know. I think that 95% of stuff that's done in God's name has NOTHING to do with God. I read the bible & have found that, as I previously mentioned, Love your God more than anything else & do unto others as you would have done to you. That's it. The rest is window dressing. I don't think I said "hidden" sins I said unknown sins. God made rules for the jews & one was no pork.. I have no idea why, its his rules. Ask him. 

Anyways

I believe that the reason God sent his Son to die as the final sacrifice was because of religious dogma & people following the letter of the law. I accidentally ate pig & now Im going to hell. I don't believe that's what God meant when he made the rules up. As for why innocent had to die to cover sins? Once again. I have no idea, I didn't make the rules, I just decided to follow them. It could have to do with Yin/Yang.. balance in the universe etc. I don't know. That's where the faith comes in & if that faith makes me a better human being & it makes me happy then I have no reason to change it. Question yes, I do that every day. But so far I've not come up with any reason to not believe. I study daily & I certainly have no answers for anyone else but myself. I hope & pray that others find what I have. I hope everyone discovers Zoodles & Salt & vinegar chips (one of my favorite foods.. since I was a kid) but trust me, I ain't putting in on any menu. BUt the combination certainly brings me joy & that's all I'm saying.

Think about it. If we all lived by that simple concept of the golden rule, we would have none of the issues we have now. If you love your neighbor your not going to rape, kill, steal, goto war, yada yada yada. I don't know how much easier it can get. I believe that once you hear the word of God you have the choice to follow or not. My belief is that I choose to follow Jesus. Doesn't mean I burn down the local strip club cause their all sinners. Just means I don't go. You want to go please, have a good time. Forcing your religion on people is IMO the worst thing you can do. Jesus never did it once. That doesn't mean he didn't say "Hey, if you do that your gonna get spanked." He didn't chase down anyone to make them change their ways. He simply said repent & don't do it again. (I am a simple man.. I paraphrase sometimes  )

I wasn't trying to make a point that jungle tribes are uncivilized. I agree that they have their own laws & belief systems & many long before Christ was around. I didn't mean to say they were savages or anything. My point was that without hearing of Jesus or God from the "new world" (europe type place) they still have most of the same values & conscience that the bible tried to instill in us. 

The Golden Rule. It's universal & it works. Almost as if it was planned... hmmmmm

This fits into my car point. You can push the gas pedal down, but without the rules/map/destination you will just go forward into the wall & its all about the end game.


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## carl.burnette (Apr 24, 2012)

That last post was just way too long.  No wonder I had to relog on to post


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## carl.burnette (Apr 24, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Most skeptics appeal to rationality in the context of seeking truthful answers. No doubt humans do some senseless acts based on senseless goals, but that is no reason to discount careful and rigorous examination when it comes to gaining knowledge.
> 
> I agree, that's why I study every day. I am by far one of the worst Christian by church standards you will ever meet. Fortunately I don't believe I will stand before my pastor some day, it will be before my God & he's the only one I have to answer too. I have no answers for anyone else but myself. Personally I love the sciences. Every time I study the universe it opens my eyes to the wonder the He created. (something created it, might as well be God). But I am NOT the guy with all the answers. I only know what works for me. I love it, I hope everyone finds it, but its personal to me. That's what they mean by a personal relationship with God.
> 
> ...


The popularity is an invalid argument. I agree. WHen I was writing it I was thinking it was a pretty immature argument. Even the bible says let God be right & every man a lier. THere was a time when it was popular to belief the earth was flat & that black people were inferior. Neither were correct but boy was it popular.

I wish most Christian would fuck off with their judgements. If someone doesn't follow Christ than as a Christian we have no right to judge that person. MO is that Christians probably shouldn't get shit faced & spend their paycheck at the strip club. But non-believers? What the hell, spend away. I;m not going to stand there condemning them or closing the place up. Better to let Him do the work. The golden rule thing. Would you want your spouse spending their paycheck at a place like that? no? they why are you? If you don't follow the golden rule than blow the whole thing! Yahoo! Have a ball.

Once again.. Its all about the end game


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 24, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...maybe it could be said in this way:
> 
> - Believers follow tradition, so that means aeons of experiences handed down. That is 'truth' to them.
> - Non-Believers examine the particles, etc. That is 'truth' to them.
> ...


Fallowing up on what Heis said, if the tradition of the believers was that the moon was made of cheese... and this is "their" truth, it makes no fuckin difference. It doesnt matter what traditions say, or what anyone wants to beleieve... the moon isnt made of fuckin cheese! lol! maybe we could accept and adopt this thought if we had not the tools and intelligence to check the moon out, to gain facts about what the moon is actually made of. 

My point; it doesn't matter how hard you want an idea to be true, without evidence or tangible proof, you are merely lying to yourself, telling yourself you have truth, when in fact you have ignorance.

In my humble opinion, lying to oneself is never a good thing, even if it makes you feel better.

I would rather be hurt by the truth, than comforted by a lie.


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## Heisenberg (Apr 24, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> The popularity is an invalid argument. I agree. WHen I was writing it I was thinking it was a pretty immature argument. Even the bible says let God be right & every man a lier. THere was a time when it was popular to belief the earth was flat & that black people were inferior. Neither were correct but boy was it popular.
> 
> I wish most Christian would fuck off with their judgements. If someone doesn't follow Christ than as a Christian we have no right to judge that person. MO is that Christians probably shouldn't get shit faced & spend their paycheck at the strip club. But non-believers? What the hell, spend away. I;m not going to stand there condemning them or closing the place up. Better to let Him do the work. The golden rule thing. Would you want your spouse spending their paycheck at a place like that? no? they why are you? If you don't follow the golden rule than blow the whole thing! Yahoo! Have a ball.
> 
> Once again.. Its all about the end game


I have no problem with your attitude, I just perceive your logic to be a little off. I have said this many times but, I feel a person has the right to believe what they want, to discuss that belief and to celebrate it. Beyond that, a belief has an obligation to show support.

This quote from Sagan says a lot

_There is a tendency to belittle, to condescend, to ignore the fact, that, deluded or not, supporters of superstitions and pseudoscience are human-beings with real beliefs, who, like the skeptics, are trying to figure out how the world works and what our role in it might be. Their motives are in many cases consonant with science. If their culture has not given them all the tools they need to pursue this great quest, let us temper our criticism with kindness. None of us comes fully equipped._

_The chief deficiency I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarization: Us vs. Them&#8212;the sense that we have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you&#8217;re sensible, you&#8217;ll listen to us; and if not, you&#8217;re beyond redemption. This is unconstructive. It does not get the message across. It condemns the skeptics to permanent minority status; whereas, a compassionate approach that from the beginning acknowledges the human roots of pseudoscience and superstition might be much more widely accepted


_I do have a major problem with this idea --> (something created it, might as well be God)

You are basing one huge assumption on another. I am not sure anyone who is conscientious could say for sure the universe was created, since if we imagine what a universe without a creator would look like, we see a universe identical to ours. But lets go ahead and assume it was created.

The next problem is that of infinite regress. If the universe is so complex that creation is the only answer, then such a being or force capable of this creation must be even more complex itself. This begs the question of, how did this complex being come to exist? Was it created by something even more complex? If not, then was it a product of random convergence? It would seem strange to accept randomness for this level of complexity and not that of the universe, yet to assume creation presents an infinite loop which confounds the problem rather than provide answers.

It would seem very irresponsible to gloss over these concerns with such a statement as (something created it, might as well be God)


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## Heisenberg (Apr 24, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Fallowing up on what Heis said, if the tradition of the believers was that the moon was made of cheese... and this is "their" truth, it makes no fuckin difference. It doesnt matter what traditions say, or what anyone wants to beleieve... the moon isnt made of fuckin cheese! lol! maybe we could accept and adopt this thought if we had not the tools and intelligence to check the moon out, to gain facts about what the moon is actually made of.
> 
> My point; it doesn't matter how hard you want an idea to be true, without evidence or tangible proof, you are merely lying to yourself, telling yourself you have truth, when in fact you have ignorance.
> 
> ...


I don't believe eye is attacking or defending either position, but merely pointing out that finding a way to play nice is a worthy and probably necessary goal. Not to speak for anyone else, but this is what I read.

But I do think it's worth pointing out that the "aeons of experiences handed down" can clearly be demonstrated as riddled with errors, misconceptions, false knowledge, and plenty of other measures that would seriously call into question the label of "truth".


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## researchkitty (Apr 24, 2012)

People are entitled to their own beliefs.......... Its the facts that they need to understand!


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 24, 2012)

You're right Heis... sometimes its hard for me to empathize with others physiological needs. I just get so frustrated sometimes man. It's something i really need to work on. +Rep if i could give you anymore.


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## cannabineer (Apr 24, 2012)

Doer said:


> I think the answer might be more frightening. We had to invent time and now time is our master. It doesn't exist, yet it rules our existence. I'm not going to re-tread my ideas on Now. They are in other posts. Let's just agree that when we die, time collapses for us.
> 
> We know the mind is subject to vast and apparently limitless time dilations. Asleep or awake. What if we make our heaven and we make our hell? It's quite common to hear reports about "my entire life flashed in front of me." More incredible time dilation. "Time stood still while the accident happen." On an on, we live in elastic preception, and to make sense of that, we invented time.
> 
> We also know the brain releases all it's dopamine, and other chemicals at death which can make a pleasure dream or mixed with fear can make a hellish dream. What if, with the proper knowledge and training, that last micosecond of death dream can be Eternity, thru time dilation?


I have never, not once had time-derangement sensations unless they were brought on by drugs. So I must exclude myself from the "we". cn


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## Doer (Apr 24, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I have never, not once had time-derangement sensations unless they were brought on by drugs. So I must exclude myself from the "we". cn


I just have to challenge that. How long do your dreams take? Clockwork? No. And perhaps you do have an internal clock, but are you saying you never think earlier or later than your watch? Been coldcocked? Breath knocked out?

How about movies, do you look at your watch? Good ones seem shorter? Boring ones, OMG!! Shoot myself. 

You may indeed be so totally wired to TIME that you have never even thought about it. But, it isn't so, really, is it? Just curious.


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## tyler.durden (Apr 24, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I have never, not once had time-derangement sensations unless they were brought on by drugs. So I must exclude myself from the "we". cn


Here we go again, Neer  I've experienced this phenomena several times; in car accidents, fights, and a few other life & death close calls. There was a interesting Nova where David Eagleman ran some experiments on this very phenomena, check it out:

[video=youtube;FkFNifsaxhg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkFNifsaxhg[/video]


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## Heisenberg (Apr 24, 2012)

I think doer has a solid premise and interesting hypothesis. I have not experienced drastic differences in my rate of continuity, but I certainly experience subtle and mild differences. I also take into consideration that physicists seem to have no reservations making this assumption. That is, the assumption that consciousness can interpret time at different rates. 

Its most likely that when our brain dies the engine which drives our consciousness dies, but we are talking about that last instant when the brain is still alive. If we enter a dream-like state coupled with having it _seem_ like eternity, the theme of the dream could depend on our emotion at death. Were we at peace? Scared? Ashamed? What opinion of ourselves did our collective decisions and conduct leave us with? What emotion do we deserve? In essence this would make heaven and hell real, with the judgment and sentence being carried out by ourselves instead of god.

Sounds like a great plot for a twilight zone episode, and I say that with no disrespect to the idea.

One reservation for considering this to be reality would be that people who have died and come back describe nothing like this. As far as I am aware, we have bright lights and floating consciousness, but no accounts of dreams of heaven/hell in the sense described here.


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## cannabineer (Apr 24, 2012)

Doer said:


> I just have to challenge that. How long do your dreams take? Clockwork? No. And perhaps you do have an internal clock, but are you saying you never think earlier or later than your watch? Been coldcocked? Breath knocked out?
> 
> How about movies, do you look at your watch? Good ones seem shorter? Boring ones, OMG!! Shoot myself.
> 
> You may indeed be so totally wired to TIME that you have never even thought about it. But, it isn't so, really, is it? Just curious.


Doer, my timesense can be as much as half or twice real, but I don't think you mean that. You're describing compressions and dilations of tenfold or greater. Even in situations where I feared for my life and had every single one of my Oh Shit receptors fire as one ... I didn't notice any remarkable time-perception effect. Never been cold-cocked, thank goodness ... or hot-cocked either. 

Dreams are "special category" imo. I have no idea if my timesense during a dream is anywhere close to actual ... I need to dream a good clock one of these days ... 

As for my timesense when I am not stressed ... i can count minutes and usually be within one second of the machine. cn


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 24, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> I don't believe eye is attacking or defending either position, but merely pointing out that finding a way to play nice is a worthy and probably necessary goal. Not to speak for anyone else, but this is what I read.
> 
> But I do think it's worth pointing out that the "aeons of experiences handed down" can clearly be demonstrated as riddled with errors, misconceptions, false knowledge, and plenty of other measures that would seriously call into question the label of "truth".



...thanks, you're right, even ground.

...the label of truth - doesn't that look a bit like the 'forest vs tree' idea at all? Sure that some info handed down has been messed up. Maybe it's the indigenous roots talking but these old stories have major value.

There's likely around 500 quotes on it. Here's one I enjoyed:

&#8220;Myth is an attempt to narrate a whole human experience, of which the purpose is too deep, going too deep in the blood and soul, for mental explanation or description.&#8221; - D.H. Lawrence


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## abandonconflict (Apr 24, 2012)

Doer said:


> I think, therefore I am.....I think


Descartes. This is where vivisection of animals in search of physical evidence of a "soul" began. He never found it.


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## Heisenberg (Apr 24, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...thanks, you're right, even ground.
> 
> ...the label of truth - doesn't that look a bit like the 'forest vs tree' idea at all? Sure that some info handed down has been messed up. Maybe it's the indigenous roots talking but these old stories have major value.
> 
> There's likely around 500 quotes on it.


If we are talking about a methodology for providing answers, I can not say there should be even ground. No doubt there is great value in stories, history, past ideas, religious inspired art and philosophy, but that value does not lie in judging truth. So I would say in most matters other than that of the spirit, there should not be even ground. There shouldn't be hostility or exclusion, but we don't give eons of experience any credit simply for being antique. I gave this example in the other thread, but if your mother was accused of being a witch you would probably favor the truth which examines the particles.

Now if you want to examine questions of the spirit or soul we can give religious history a little more weight. That is because our subject has moved a bit from the realm of testable science and cannoned knowledge and into the area of ignorance and obscurity. It's possible that religious mussing might offer us some insight when wrestling with questions of this nature. But that inspiration must still eventually be supported with reason and substance before it could be considered dependable. If religion provides us with answers that can not be explained, demonstrated and defended, then it has given us nothing meaningful in terms of truth.


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## Doer (Apr 24, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Doer, my timesense can be as much as half or twice real, but I don't think you mean that. You're describing compressions and dilations of tenfold or greater. Even in situations where I feared for my life and had every single one of my Oh Shit receptors fire as one ... I didn't notice any remarkable time-perception effect. Never been cold-cocked, thank goodness ... or hot-cocked either.
> 
> Dreams are "special category" imo. I have no idea if my timesense during a dream is anywhere close to actual ... I need to dream a good clock one of these days ...
> 
> As for my timesense when I am not stressed ... i can count minutes and usually be within one second of the machine. cn


Well let's exclude all "awake and alert" states. if you will. I see those as the special catagory. That includes the timestreching moments of downhill skiing, narrow escapes of all kinds. Thrill. If you don't sense anything, OK, since I really am only using the awake states as examples of the concept.

So, dreams and all sub/un/super conscious states then, are the subject I'm proposing.

Specifically the death dream. In the detailed studies of the death processes, endorphs and all the other consciousness sustaining compounds like serotonin and nor-epheniphrine are release. And in the dream state, outside time is meaningless and inside time depends on the dream, if time sense is present at all. So, it's a relativity puzzle that occurred to me. To the outside world we died, but, can we dream Eternity in a microsecond? Or Hell?

Can you imagine yourself, imagining that? Can your Self imagine the image? Can Self be without even worldly Identity? Ever dreamed you were someone else?

In Japan, they say that being awake is *&#22818;&#12398;&#21448;&#22818;* ...a dream within a dream. Such a wonder, perception.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 24, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> If we are talking about a methodology for providing answers, I can not say there should be even ground. No doubt there is great value in stories, history, past ideas, religious inspired art and philosophy, but that value does not lie in judging truth. So I would say in most matters other than that of the spirit, there should not be even ground. There shouldn't be hostility or exclusion, but we don't give eons of experience any credit simply for being antique. I gave this example in the other thread, but if your mother was accused of being a witch you would probably favor the truth which examines the particles.
> 
> Now if you want to examine questions of the spirit or soul we can give religious history a little more weight. That is because our subject has moved a bit from the realm of testable science and cannoned knowledge and into the area of ignorance and obscurity. It's possible that religious mussing might offer us some insight when wrestling with questions of this nature. But that inspiration must still eventually be supported with reason and substance before it could be considered dependable. If religion provides us with answers that can not be explained, demonstrated and defended, then it has given us nothing meaningful in terms of truth.


I would like to expand a bit on this last point. I find that "meaningful in terms of truth" should be given more definition. Not that I don't agree, in fact, you gave me a foundation to build on. Isn't that what science does? The findings of one scientist are taken for granted by the next such that the research, experimentation and demonstration do not have to be repeated. With that in mind, theories continue to evolve and disciplines coalesce together or at least verify one another. Some theories are even so coherent as to give a predictive model. For example, armed only with a copy of "On The Origin Of Species" anthropologists knew where to look for Darwin's missing link, which indeed they found, Australopithecus Afarensis or Lucy. This is extremely meaningful in terms of truth. This occurs through strict adherence to (empirical) methodology.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 24, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> If we are talking about a methodology for providing answers, I can not say there should be even ground. No doubt there is great value in stories, history, past ideas, religious inspired art and philosophy, but that value does not lie in judging truth. So I would say in most matters other than that of the spirit, there should not be even ground. There shouldn't be hostility or exclusion, but we don't give eons of experience any credit simply for being antique. I gave this example in the other thread, but if your mother was accused of being a witch you would probably favor the truth which examines the particles.
> 
> Now if you want to examine questions of the spirit or soul we can give religious history a little more weight. That is because our subject has moved a bit from the realm of testable science and cannoned knowledge and into the area of ignorance and obscurity. It's possible that religious mussing might offer us some insight when wrestling with questions of this nature. *But that inspiration must still eventually be supported with reason and substance before it could be considered dependable.* If religion provides us with answers that can not be explained, demonstrated and defended, then it has given us nothing meaningful in terms of truth.


...that's totally fair. So, if a religion says 'do "x" thing' and you follow it the way they described you could potentially experience something 'other' (as in meditation). This something 'other' has been given the same description by people worldwide, so the practitioners must have something in common. The thing is, you don't see scientists practicing catholicism (f.e.) to find this 'other'. They usually want to test things in their arena, if I am not mistaken. It's the equivalent of a person becoming an atheist without ever having questioned himself. It don't work. To get to deep spiritual places you have to do the work. Due-Diligence, let's say.


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## Heisenberg (Apr 24, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> I would like to expand a bit on this last point. I find that "meaningful in terms of truth" should be given more definition. Not that I don't agree, in fact, you gave me a foundation to build on. Isn't that what science does? The findings of one scientist are taken for granted by the next such that the research, experimentation and demonstration do not have to be repeated. With that in mind, theories continue to evolve and disciplines coalesce together or at least verify one another. Some theories are even so coherent as to give a predictive model. For example, armed only with a copy of "On The Origin Of Species" anthropologists knew where to look for Darwin's missing link, which indeed they found, Australopithecus Afarensis or Lucy. This is extremely meaningful in terms of truth. This occurs through strict adherence to (empirical) methodology.


Indeed. Religion is not equipped to give us answers on this level of certainty. Just as anecdotal evidence gives us a place to start, but does not allow us to make conclusions.


&#8220;Faith, if it is ever right about anything, it is right by accident." - Sam Harris


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## thump easy (Apr 24, 2012)

yes i believe in Jessus and god above him. and the holy spirit, me for being a cristain man its a hard walk for shure so im just a believer.. i wish i could control myself but i cant... so not the best cristian..


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## Heisenberg (Apr 24, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...that's totally fair. So, if a religion says 'do "x" thing' and you follow it the way they described you could potentially experience something 'other' (as in meditation). This something 'other' has been given the same description by people worldwide, so the practitioners must have something in common. The thing is, you don't see scientists practicing catholicism (f.e.) to find this 'other'. They usually want to test things in their arena, if I am not mistaken. It's the equivalent of a person becoming an atheist without ever having questioned himself. It don't work. To get to deep spiritual places you have to do the work. Due-Diligence, let's say.


You have a point if you are speaking about me. Although I spend much time considering spirituality, I have not practiced it. However there are scientists and skeptics who have made serious effort to reach this 'other', Sam Harris and Julia Sweeney just off the top of my head. Houdini wanted very much to believe in the afterlife and made considerable effort to reach it. This sounds a bit like special pleading.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 24, 2012)

thump easy said:


> yes i believe in Jessus and god above him. and the holy spirit, me for being a cristain man its a hard walk for shure so im just a believer.. i wish i could control myself but i cant... so not the best cristian..


...the fact that you wrote that out, _here_, was enough - imo.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 24, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> You have a point if you are speaking about me. Although I spend much time considering spirituality, I have not practiced it. However there are scientists and skeptics who have made serious effort to reach this 'other', Sam Harris and Julia Sweeney just off the top of my head. Houdini wanted very much to believe in the afterlife and made considerable effort to reach it. This sounds a bit like special pleading.


...I have no doubt that there are many scientists and skeptics who know waaaay more than me about the passages in the bible. I'm not a scripture reciter guy, at all. I feel my way through it. I have to assume that my reasoning abilities are present through it all, like in the autonomic nervous system or something


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## Doer (Apr 25, 2012)

*&#8220;Faith, if it is ever right about anything, it is right by accident." -* Sam Harris 

I like quotes*. *It reminds me of another one.*

"I'd rather be lucky than good." *Baseball's Lefty Gomez

Really, if it is right by accident can it not be right by Design? Especially since the Design does not have to be from "other?" Who can say what is accidental in this life? Causality itself is in a bit of scientific hot water these days with Quantum Non-locality and whatnot. 

So that leads me ever back to the question, is it really "other" or is it really ourselves? *Are we "accidentally" intercepting our higher perceptions? Or are our higher perceptions helping us if we care to listen? One 
needs a bit of hope, at least, to be open to the idea.

But, Yin and Yang, good and evil, Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt*, and the highest self sacrifice, is all in us. We can imagine. We can Create.

Perhaps the highest perception is a Universal birthright and we are slowly getting there. A Universal mind meld could 
be the goal of the non-causality, quantum connected Super-Consciousness? Perhaps Super-C is quite aware of the
tenuous Solar situation we have here and has the WILL to get it's precious DNA out of the Gravity Well.

And at some point or level, why is that not GOD? Religion is the question. I'm just adding some of mine.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Apr 25, 2012)

Doer said:


> *Faith, if it is ever right about anything, it is right by accident." - Sam Harris *



In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't. ~Blaise Pascal


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## ginjawarrior (Apr 25, 2012)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't. ~Blaise Pascal


*"Men never commit evil so fully and joyfuly as when they do it for religious convictions" 
-- Blaise Pascal *


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## Nitegazer (Apr 25, 2012)

A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire

(not that they aren't fun-- just couldn't help myself)


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## sonar (Apr 25, 2012)

God is a superstition. It amazing me in this day and age in the West the lengths seemingly intelligent folks go to cling to this stuff. Not only that, but how such a small minority of fundamentalists can exert such influence on government and public policy.

I truly feel that 99% of people who claim to believe in God and Jesus and all the other children's characters are in denial. That if they look deep enough into themselves they know it isn't real. They are just too afraid to admit it for several reasons. The fact that they were lied to their entire life and have possibly been lying to their own children their entire lives. But most importantly the fact that there is no afterlife. It is a scary thought to think that this is it. Most people can't handle that.

I would LOVE to believe there was this guy called Jesus who was the son of God and was sent to earth to die for our sins. Why God would send his son to roam around the Middle East for 33 years only to have him tortured and crucified is beyond me, but I digress. That when I die I would be rewarded wih eternal life in heaven is a wonderful thought. But it is just a fantasy created to help people feel more comfortable with their own mortality. Organized religion sprung from that when they realized it could be used to instill fear and control the masses. 

I have a theory that by now, we would be a space-faring species if it wasn't for organized religion. Mainly Christianity in Europe. For over 1000 years the shackles of the Church kept us in the Dark Ages. Advancements in science and technology pretty much came to a halt once the Romans left and scientists were persecuted in Europe until well into the 19th century.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Apr 25, 2012)

Nitegazer said:


> A witty saying proves nothing.
> -Voltaire
> 
> (not that they aren't fun-- just couldn't help myself)


Roger, my point being that one can easily google a quote to fit any occasion or back most any position.


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## carl.burnette (Apr 25, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Indeed. Religion is not equipped to give us answers on this level of certainty. Just as anecdotal evidence gives us a place to start, but does not allow us to make conclusions.
> 
> 
> Faith, if it is ever right about anything, it is right by accident." - Sam Harris


I'm very happy that we are having this conversation on an adult level. I hate debating where the answers are "Your a dumb fuck blinded by your parents forced views!" 

You would have to agree that science can share the same state as your statement about religion & no having answers on a level of certainly. How often is a scientific proof proven wrong? One of the fundamental scientific statements is that nothing goes faster than the speed of light. THey are now saying that there are particles that travel faster than light. THere are a ton of other examples of this sort of thing. Various finds that were totted as one thing but ended up being something else.

THe thing about science is that they don't stop looking. But for example, almost all theoretical physics is just that, theory. But its treated as fact. Saying belief in an unseen God is some form of coping mechanism can be turned back & said that many scientific theories are just used to cope with not wanting to deal with an unseen God. On paper, neither argument is more valid than the other. Neither can be proven. They are both faith based.

It's funny, if it God created the universe in a week its a fairy tail. But if it happened over 13.5 billion years its a fact. We have the Big Bang & the proof of it with the echos of the microwaves & such.. Where my Christian views say the Lord spoke it into existence. An instantaneous act. (from my point of view). Science & religion both agree that it happened in an instant, but we just disagree on the cause. 

That's why we all need to lose the judgements on others beliefs wether religious or scientific until proven. The moon is not made of cheese. We know that because we've been there. (OH NO.. The we didn't land on the moon conspiracy!  ) Until your dead, I feel pretty certain we have no idea what comes next. as for me, I choose to believe in the heaven of talked about in the bible. OThers are free to believe in what ever they like & I will not judge them for it.


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## carl.burnette (Apr 25, 2012)

thump easy said:


> yes i believe in Jessus and god above him. and the holy spirit, me for being a cristain man its a hard walk for shure so im just a believer.. i wish i could control myself but i cant... so not the best cristian..


I don't think there's a good or bad type. Jesus is either your Lord or he's not. Don't sweat screwing up. Every apostle screwed up. Peter denied him, the rest all fucked off when the heat was on. David screwed the guys wife then had him killed in battle to cover it, Lot nailed his 2 daughters, etc etc. We're all crappy Christians on the outside. All we can do is try. When we screw up, we know we screwed up & we try not to screw up again. I believe that's the Holy Spirit helping to change you more into what Christ want you to be. We're not made perfect at the point of salvation, we're just given the guidance of the Holy Spirit to help us along. Takes time & practice to learn to follow the still voice. 
THe best part is He promised to never leave us or forsake us so even when you do mess up, he's there to pick you up again! Seriously, how AWESOME is that?!
Don't take my word for it, read it yourself. Study the gospels & ask the Lord to reveal his word to you. I personally enjoy reading in the morning after my hippie speedball (a joint & a coffee)


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## ginjawarrior (Apr 25, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> I'm very happy that we are having this conversation on an adult level. I hate debating where the answers are "Your a dumb fuck blinded by your parents forced views!"
> 
> You would have to agree that science can share the same state as your statement about religion & no having answers on a level of certainly. How often is a scientific proof proven wrong? One of the fundamental scientific statements is that nothing goes faster than the speed of light. THey are now saying that there are particles that travel faster than light. THere are a ton of other examples of this sort of thing. Various finds that were totted as one thing but ended up being something else.
> 
> ...


the difference with science and religion is that science will and does change when new evidence that arises WRT to speed of light the whole thing was about scientists getting results that didnt seem right and ASKING the rest of the scientific community to help prove them wrong 
guess what they were wrong LINKY 
religion doesnt change of its own accord faith doesnt allow to even question it

* "many scientific theories are just used to cope with not wanting to deal with an unseen God.*"
you dont not need to invoke god at all to want to have an understanding about our surroundings science gets on fine without ever refering to a god

there is mountains of evidence that points to a very very old earth and an even older universe yes it is laughable the story of genesis and a 6000 year old earth 

scientists dont think the universe as we see it sprung into form instantly it was hundreds of thousands of years before matter even condensed into existence





while we cannot prove/disprove the existence of "god" in what ever his form we can happily look at the holy scriptures where his "idea" comes from and cast a critical eye over them and say this is not gods words. and if people open go about saying they believe in pink unicorns that survive on love and worship from faithful followers then it perfectly reasonable to question them on such beliefs


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 25, 2012)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> Roger, my point being that one can easily google a quote to fit any occasion or back most any position.



...I agree with that for sure - but felt compelled to add this one to lend some credibility back to quotes: (not that I'm saying you discredit them  )

"Knowledge of the self is the mother of all knowledge. So it is incumbent on me to know my self, to know it completely, to know its minutiae, its characteristics, its subtleties, and its very atoms." - Khalil Gibran


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## Heisenberg (Apr 25, 2012)

Doer said:


> *&#8220;Faith, if it is ever right about anything, it is right by accident." -* Sam Harris
> 
> I like quotes*. *It reminds me of another one.*
> 
> ...


I believe I framed my post in the context of faith as a method of finding truthful answers, so I am not sure what bearing quantum causality would have on the use of 'accident' as a descriptor.


Faiths design is such that any answers it delivers are stumbled upon, making them all accidental, right or wrong. The method avoids clear reasoning and honest observation giving it no utility in the application of judging truth value, which makes it seem a poor choice of authority when pondering what many feel are the most important questions in life. Faiths design detaches us from the full potential of human learning. Faith has a history of delivering irrational and indifferent superstition in the place of genuine explanation. As I said, faith has it's place, and that place is rather like the value we find in anecdotal evidence, and for similar reasons faith can not be trusted to make conclusions. Faith lives in obscure procedure without structure or candor yet feels it's information is important and righteous, it would be very strange if this approach lead to anything objectively meaningful by itself, and indeed the track record says it hasn't. The cloud of ambiguity faith dwells in shrinks in proportion to the answers science uncovers.

"Faith allows perfectly sane and decent people to believe by the billions what only a lunatic could believe on their own." - Sam Harris​


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## polyarcturus (Apr 25, 2012)

monkey science is way more fun than bible thumping!


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## carl.burnette (Apr 25, 2012)

ginjawarrior said:


> the difference with science and religion is that science will and does change when new evidence that arises WRT to speed of light the whole thing was about scientists getting results that didnt seem right and ASKING the rest of the scientific community to help prove them wrong
> guess what they were wrong LINKY
> religion doesnt change of its own accord faith doesnt allow to even question it
> 
> ...


I guess what I don't understand, and I mean this with all the respect I can type, is this.

All the tests we have, carbon dating for example. We know that carbon ?? looses so many electrons per year so by testing something we can get a general idea of how old it is. (this is VERY oversimplified, but so am I  ) Now keeping my speed of sound point in mind, we have been able to study carbon atoms for say 100 years (its not that long.. I know) but lets just say it is. So we measure an item carbon, then 50 years later we study it again. Looses 5 electrons. So logic & science say that is something has say 1000 missing electrons than its 10000 years old. But what we don't know for certain is that perhaps after 100 years it loses electrons at a reduced rate, or a faster rate. Either way, we have no idea for certain because we've only had the ability to test for say 100 years. But carbon dating is taken as scientific fact. The sound barrier didn't work out the way logic & science said it would. BUt we take it as an absolute. I am skeptical of both religion & science when they make hard & fast rule.

The basics of a God/Jesus based faith is the golden rule. Love God more than anything else & love your neighbor more than yourself. This has never changes. Is the same now, yesterday & forever. The rest of the crap done in His name is irrelevant. Doesn't say anywhere in the bible to go on a crusade & kill the muslims, doesn't say priest cant marry, doesn't say 90% of what's done in His name & most of them were terrible & unnecessary. I believe Christ came to do away from all the superstitions & rules that man was enforcing to the death. You lit a match on the sabbath & they wanted you put to death. 

True faith in Jesus allows for change & we are told to study & question. What you are referring to I think, with unchanging rules & what not are when religions try to push morals & how we should live things. Doesn't say you can;t dance, but the Baptist say no way. Not a biblical rule, its a Baptist rule. Pentecostals believe if you don't speak in tongues your not saved. Not a biblical rule, a pentecostal rule. Those are the religious beliefs that are fucked in my opinion & the ones that they fight to the death to not change. My father is a pastor & I have a fairly inside look at the inner workings of various church organization & what not. I know how people get an opinion of what they believe God wants & I know how hard they hold on to things like that. TIll death I swear. 

Those are mans rules not the Lords. IMO. God made it so simple. I mean it. SOOO simple. We are referred to as sheep in the bible because sheep are not that smart. We may think we are, but we're really not. At least I'm not anyways. KISS: Keep It simple Stupid

If you put your neighbor before yourself & everyone else does as well, it would be a far superior world  

Let you believe what you want, let me believe what I want. Lets have some great conversations without calling the other person a brainwashed fool or an ungodly heathen who's headed to hell.

Even though thats what you are & I can prove it!  (JOKING)!!!! 

Honestly, I would LOVE nothing better than to sit down with my father & discuss this, even having a nice blunt. Fuck.. where can you do that? Smoke a blunt & discuss life. I have never smoked with anyone else really other than at a concert or something. I picture like you know in the olden days the jews or the greeks would debate. I would LOVE that without all the childish name calling of course. That's where is looses all interest for me. I was talking with my father a couple weeks ago about the middle east & holy crap I couldn't believe his attitude. He made some comments that totally blew me away. THat is NOT what I consider a Christian I don't care how long he went to bible college or how long he's been a preacher. I love my dad & all that, but holy crap he's got some firm ideas. Similar to the baptist & the dancing.


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## Heisenberg (Apr 25, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> You would have to agree that science can share the same state as your statement about religion & no having answers on a level of certainly. How often is a scientific proof proven wrong? One of the fundamental scientific statements is that nothing goes faster than the speed of light. THey are now saying that there are particles that travel faster than light. THere are a ton of other examples of this sort of thing. Various finds that were totted as one thing but ended up being something else.


Many do see this as a failing of science, yet it is actually manifestation of one of it's strengths, the ability to self correct. Science is open to new ideas, new evidence, and new angles. Systematic doubt is a staple of the scientific method, IOW, science constantly doubts itself. Science takes the approach that, the best way to demonstrate that you are right is by failing to prove yourself wrong. Science changes it's mind when it is the responsible and justified thing to do.

Just a parenthetical, Last I heard the data suggesting FTL particle travel was found to be flawed.



> THe thing about science is that they don't stop looking. But for example, almost all theoretical physics is just that, theory. But its treated as fact. Saying belief in an unseen God is some form of coping mechanism can be turned back & said that many scientific theories are just used to cope with not wanting to deal with an unseen God. On paper, neither argument is more valid than the other. Neither can be proven. They are both faith based.


You are mistaken. God theory is unable to show it's work, science shows mounds of it. In science, a theory is something which has been shown to have evidence, otherwise its a hypothesis. So to say something is just a theory is like saying this something has only been shown to have evidence. Science does not avoid an unseen god out of frustration, but out of parsimony. 



> It's funny, if it God created the universe in a week its a fairy tail. But if it happened over 13.5 billion years its a fact. We have the Big Bang & the proof of it with the echos of the microwaves & such.. Where my Christian views say the Lord spoke it into existence. An instantaneous act. (from my point of view). Science & religion both agree that it happened in an instant, but we just disagree on the cause.


In this we share common ground. There is nothing about evolution or the big bang that excludes god as an author. It would seem the creationist view has more problem with this idea than the science involved in these theories. Also, there are many other attributes which make creationism resemble a fairy tale besides god's quickness.



> That's why we all need to lose the judgements on others beliefs wether religious or scientific until proven. The moon is not made of cheese. We know that because we've been there. (OH NO.. The we didn't land on the moon conspiracy!  ) Until your dead, I feel pretty certain we have no idea what comes next. as for me, I choose to believe in the heaven of talked about in the bible. OThers are free to believe in what ever they like & I will not judge them for it.


As I said, I have no problem with beliefs until the exceed their basic human entitlements of expression and celebration, beyond that I think we do need to judge. Religious beliefs have a way of demanding surrender, they must be kept in check.


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## Doer (Apr 25, 2012)

Scientific methods are the way we keep from spinning our wheels with conjecture. It ruthlessly cuts the false trails. 

Religion to me is the opposite. Based on conjecture and in constant theological spin. The history of theology is 
even more depressing than Religion. Pure Conjecture and in the Hassidic tradition an odd anthromorphic human logic. "Wouldn't a just GOD....?" Why Just, again? Oh, right, chosen people. 

There are 7 main versions of the Bible today, for example, and countless revisions of those.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 25, 2012)

Doer said:


> Scientific methods are the way we keep from spinning our wheels with conjecture. It ruthlessly cuts the false trails.
> 
> Religion to me is the opposite. Based on conjecture and in constant theological spin. The history of theology is
> even more depressing than Religion. Pure Conjecture and in the Hassidic tradition an odd anthromorphic human logic. "Wouldn't a just GOD....?" Why Just, again? Oh, right, chosen people.
> ...


I am religion, I seek facts to support my conclusions.

I am science, I wonder what conclusions I may draw from the facts.


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## Doer (Apr 25, 2012)

abandonconflict said:


> I am religion, I seek facts to support my conclusions.
> 
> I am science, I wonder what conclusions I may draw from the facts.


Not even close for 1/2 of it, imo. Isn't this it, actually?

I am religion, I suppress facts to support my conclusions and I damn those that disagree.


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## abandonconflict (Apr 25, 2012)

Doer said:


> Not even close for 1/2 of it, imo. Isn't this it, actually?
> 
> I am religion, I suppress facts to support my conclusions and I damn those that disagree.


I stand corrected +rep


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## Stillbuzzin (Apr 25, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> All I see is a bunch of God-bashing, monkey-metamorphisis, space alien, crazy-ass beliefs, on here, and being a minister of the Universal Life Church, I'm almost tempted to roll up shop and go elsewhere... Just wondering... Little bit of a check here.... I am tolerant of anyones beliefs, but there is a great in-tolerance of anything Christian I ever say when people talk about their far-fetched, man-made, dreamed up concoctions of science and sci-fi, and whatever... Whatever happenned to just believing that Christ died for our sins, and that God created everything, including cannabis, which is clearly pointed out, and spoken HIGHLY of many times in The Bible? Anyone? Seriously, anyone?


Ever time I try to talk about this I just delete it an give up. The trolls will drive you nuts.


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## Doer (Apr 25, 2012)

"*just believing that Christ died for our sins,"* that's the part I don't get. First create sin and guilt as a tribal law and order deal and claim it was from a burning bush, then get a guy killed, say that we are saved from "sin" because of that.

Too weird. Too much conjecture. Self fulfilling degradation. Blame shifting. No real work with Self.
Why believe that? Why buy into the sin gimmick and need saving from that to have a life hereafter.

And all religions have this absurd cult logic core. I have my own Elysium and what if you are wrong?


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## carl.burnette (Apr 25, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Many do see this as a failing of science, yet it is actually manifestation of one of it's strengths, the ability to self correct. Science is open to new ideas, new evidence, and new angles. Systematic doubt is a staple of the scientific method, IOW, science constantly doubts itself. Science takes the approach that, the best way to demonstrate that you are right is by failing to prove yourself wrong. Science changes it's mind when it is the responsible and justified thing to do.
> 
> Just a parenthetical, Last I heard the data suggesting FTL particle travel was found to be flawed.
> 
> ...


Wish I knew how to break up the quotes like that. Makes responding easier.

"Many do see this as a failing of science, yet it is actually manifestation of one of it's strengths, the ability to self correct. Science is open to new ideas, new evidence, and new angles. Systematic doubt is a staple of the scientific method, IOW, science constantly doubts itself. Science takes the approach that, the best way to demonstrate that you are right is by failing to prove yourself wrong. Science changes it's mind when it is the responsible and justified thing to do."

I agree that science self corrects. But, the problem as I see it is when its corrected the correction is taken as fact. As was the original theory, then when someone else has a theory ITS treated as fact. Not to start an evolution discussion, but look at evolution. Its taught as gospel & if you question your labeled a religious nu


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## ginjawarrior (Apr 25, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> Wish I knew how to break up the quotes like that. Makes responding easier.
> 
> "Many do see this as a failing of science, yet it is actually manifestation of one of it's strengths, the ability to self correct. Science is open to new ideas, new evidence, and new angles. Systematic doubt is a staple of the scientific method, IOW, science constantly doubts itself. Science takes the approach that, the best way to demonstrate that you are right is by failing to prove yourself wrong. Science changes it's mind when it is the responsible and justified thing to do."
> 
> I agree that science self corrects. But, the problem as I see it is when its corrected the correction is taken as fact. As was the original theory, then when someone else has a theory ITS treated as fact. Not to start an evolution discussion, but look at evolution. Its taught as gospel & if you question your labeled a religious nu


when you reply with quote the previous post is inbetween

```
[quote]
```


```
[/quote]
```
 split the box up into multiple parts you need to add a finish

```
[/quote]
```
 to the part you want to block off. but that then leaves rest of quote without a start so you'll need to add an

```
[quote]
```
so if you do this



carl.burnette said:


> Wish I knew how to break up the quotes like that. Makes responding easier.





> "Many do see this as a failing of science, yet it is actually manifestation of one of it's strengths, the ability to self correct. Science is open to new ideas, new evidence, and new angles. Systematic doubt is a staple of the scientific method, IOW, science constantly doubts itself. Science takes the approach that, the best way to demonstrate that you are right is by failing to prove yourself wrong. Science changes it's mind when it is the responsible and justified thing to do."





> I agree that science self corrects. But, the problem as I see it is when its corrected the correction is taken as fact. As was the original theory, then when someone else has a theory ITS treated as fact. Not to start an evolution discussion, but look at evolution. Its taught as gospel & if you question your labeled a religious nu



should look like this



carl.burnette said:


> Wish I knew how to break up the quotes like that. Makes responding easier.





> "Many do see this as a failing of science, yet it is actually manifestation of one of it's strengths, the ability to self correct. Science is open to new ideas, new evidence, and new angles. Systematic doubt is a staple of the scientific method, IOW, science constantly doubts itself. Science takes the approach that, the best way to demonstrate that you are right is by failing to prove yourself wrong. Science changes it's mind when it is the responsible and justified thing to do."





> I agree that science self corrects. But, the problem as I see it is when its corrected the correction is taken as fact. As was the original theory, then when someone else has a theory ITS treated as fact. Not to start an evolution discussion, but look at evolution. Its taught as gospel & if you question your labeled a religious nu


hmm not working how it should i hate bb code


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## ginjawarrior (Apr 25, 2012)

right sod above post
quoted text has [ Q U O T E ] and [/ Q U O T E] (remove spaces)at begging and end to split it up yu need to add an end at bit you want to quote and a new begining for next block of text
[q u o t e]text {add ending here} [/ q u o t e]
{add new beginging} [ q u o t e ] rest of quoted msg here [/ q u o t e]


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## Heisenberg (Apr 25, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> I agree that science self corrects. But, the problem as I see it is when its corrected the correction is taken as fact. As was the original theory, then when someone else has a theory ITS treated as fact. Not to start an evolution discussion, but look at evolution. Its taught as gospel & if you question your labeled a religious nu


Science does not see any answers as absolute. What science does is attempt to give us the closest approximation of truth. Science fastidiously documents and presents the rationale behind it's approximations, and through transparency begs for others to find errors. Peer review and replication are part of the self correction process. Science is not happy with simply demonstrating things once and only looking for errors from one angle. If science is wrong, it wants to be made aware. With each correction, that approximation becomes more polished. It's true sometimes a correction calls for the need to abandon a theory completely, in which case science does if it is justified.

Science invites questions and welcomes doubt, but has little tolerance for denial. Denialism is often what we see in critics of evolution. Remember, an integral part of science is systematic doubt, so when a theory such as evolution has been around this long, it means it has withstood decades and decades of rigorous attempts to prove it false. It has made decades of predictions which have been found to be accurate, and undergone decades of refinement. Can you understand why some treat it as reliable knowledge? Creationists do not simply question evolution, they attack it with demonstrably fallacious arguments and then flat out deny the counters to those arguments. They appeal to irrationality, and thus often gain the label of nut.

Science is too worried about proving itself wrong to waste time on well countered arguments from the past.

I have no motivation to get into an evolution debate either, but it does serve as a good example of the scientific method.


"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion" - Carl Sagan


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## Heisenberg (Apr 25, 2012)

ginjawarrior said:


> right sod above post
> quoted text has [ Q U O T E ] and [/ Q U O T E] (remove spaces)at begging and end to split it up yu need to add an end at bit you want to quote and a new begining for next block of text
> [q u o t e]text {add ending here} [/ q u o t e]
> {add new beginging} [ q u o t e ] rest of quoted msg here [/ q u o t e]


This was so confusing I have now forgotten how to quote.


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## ginjawarrior (Apr 25, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> This was so confusing I have now forgotten how to quote.


lol i tried to do it by using

```
to reveal it but it doesnt seem to work how it used to
```


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## mindphuk (Apr 25, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> This was so confusing I have now forgotten how to quote.


I just highlight the intended quote and hit the button that looks like a word balloon. I have to delete an extraneous tag at the beginning and end.


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## Hepheastus420 (Apr 25, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Of course there are christians on RIU, some of my favs are Eye Exaggerate, Hep, Oly and another new guy with a monkey as an avatar who I think is also christian. They are all intelligent and participate in good debates. We have no problem with their faith, because they do not present it as fact, merely their belief. Any claims posted as reality that cannot stand up to simple logic and scrutiny, or has no empirical evidence, does get bashed here and that's a beautiful thing. It indicates that we are making progress as a species. Belief without evidence is fine, but it won't be taken seriously in this sub-forum...


Tough logical love.


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## mindphuk (Apr 25, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> Wish I knew how to break up the quotes like that. Makes responding easier.
> 
> "Many do see this as a failing of science, yet it is actually manifestation of one of it's strengths, the ability to self correct. Science is open to new ideas, new evidence, and new angles. Systematic doubt is a staple of the scientific method, IOW, science constantly doubts itself. Science takes the approach that, the best way to demonstrate that you are right is by failing to prove yourself wrong. Science changes it's mind when it is the responsible and justified thing to do."
> 
> I agree that science self corrects. But, the problem as I see it is when its corrected the correction is taken as fact. As was the original theory, then when someone else has a theory ITS treated as fact. Not to start an evolution discussion, but look at evolution. Its taught as gospel & if you question your labeled a religious nu


I too do not want to turn this into an evolution debate, although that is my wheelhouse, I would like to point out that most religious objection to evolution is not objecting specifically to the theory of evolution but to the fact of evolution. Darwin proposed a theory to explain the _*observations *_that species appear to change over time and began with simpler forms early in history and progressed to more complex forms. Even creationists like Carl Linnaeus saw that organisms formed nested hierarchy like family trees. It is this relationship between organisms that prompted people to find explanations. Jean-Baptiste Lamarck proposed a different "theory of evolution" that claimed organisms could pass off acquired characteristics to their offspring. The idea that plants and animals evolved from much simpler forms dates back before Charles Darwin to at least Erasmus Darwin, Charles' grandfather. 

What we end up having is people that dispute certain facts about the history of life on earth that are not in dispute because they think somehow that evolutionary theory is pinned on the works of Charles Darwin and the fossil record. The actual mechanism for how and why populations of species change over time is what is proposed by the theory of natural selection and descent with modification, not the fact that the gene pool changes over time.


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## tyler.durden (Apr 25, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Tough logical love.


Hey, Hep! Good to see you back. Where you been?


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 25, 2012)

_




Originally Posted by tyler.durden  
_
_Of course there are christians on RIU, some of my favs are Eye Exaggerate, Hep, Oly and another new guy with a monkey as an avatar who I think is also christian. They are all intelligent and participate in good debates. We have no problem with their faith, because they do not present it as fact, merely their belief. Any claims posted as reality that cannot stand up to simple logic and scrutiny, or has no empirical evidence, does get bashed here and that's a beautiful thing. It indicates that we are making progress as a species. Belief without evidence is fine, but it won't be taken seriously in this sub-forum..._

[h=3]_be·lief_/bi&#712;l&#275;f/[/h]



An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.




I definitely wouldn't have a problem with it if they didn't consider their beliefs facts, but here is a problem... because there is a difference between ideas, and beliefs. If you hold onto a belief, it hardly ever changes, but if you merely think of different ideas... there are endless possibilities. 

Beliefs= close mindedness
Ideas= open mindedness


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 25, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Beliefs= close mindedness
> Ideas= open mindedness


...is this what you believe?


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## Hepheastus420 (Apr 26, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...is this what you believe?


Checkmate..


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## tyler.durden (Apr 26, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...is this what you believe?


Very good. +rep...


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## Heisenberg (Apr 26, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...is this what you believe?


It's an idea he had, which by his very definition, is subject to change.


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## Hepheastus420 (Apr 26, 2012)

Wait.. does he believe his ideas? You can change your beliefs so I wouldn't consider it being close-minded. So if you have ideas and beliefs are you close-minded and open-minded at the same time?


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 26, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> It's an idea he had, which by his very definition, is subject to change.


^Exactly



Hepheastus420 said:


> Wait.. does he believe his ideas? You can change your beliefs so I wouldn't consider it being close-minded. So if you have ideas and beliefs are you close-minded and open-minded at the same time?


Everyone has ideas, not everyone has beliefs. (Everyone thinks, but not everyone feels the psychological need to claim truth or certainty regarding their thoughts)

It is much easier to change an idea that holds onto no truth value, than it is to change a belief that holds onto some form of certainty. Beliefs form certainties, where as ideas eventually form more complex and different ideas always subject to change.

I think (not believe) that this is the most rational explanation (the closest approximation to the truth) of the differences between beleifs, and ideas. This idea is subject to change if contradicting evidence is to be found.

*So if you have ideas and beliefs are you close-minded and open-minded at the same time?* - Open minded about the ideas that are ever changing into new and beautiful (sometimes uglier) ideas, close minded about the beliefs that you do not want to change.

Just try to remember what beliefs are... they are IDEAS, that we claim certainty to. When we attempt to claim certainty to ideas that cannot be subject to the scrutinies of science... we are merely telling ourselves we are certain, when we really are not. Believing in something without evidence is the same thing as lying to ourselves.


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## carl.burnette (Apr 26, 2012)

BUT what if what you believe is correct? I had faith & believe that 5+5 is 10. I know that 5+5 is 10. Therefore sometimes (& I mean this is the MOST STRICT NARROW FOCUS) you can be closed minded about something that is a fact. Gravity I think is a fact. 

Belief becomes fact when its proven. 

All my point is that until something is proved, it is just that, a belief. Science can then be called a belief system. A logical, self studying constantly to impart new information, but at its core, its a belief system. Since its a belief system is has as much validity as the Christian belief system & vice versa. I'm not talking about beliefs such as no lipstick or your going to hell. That in my opinion, is the kind of beliefs that myself & I believe most people have the issues with. Belief in a creator is different that belief in what the rules are. 

Now that's not to say that the creator didn't make rules for us to follow. THere are rules. Drop a bowling ball off a building & it will fall to earth. Science believes that's I guess you would call it a natural law. I just believe that someone wrote/implemented those laws. Gravity, light, mass etc. All that good stuff. Its there, no doubting it. Just where it started & where it will all end is where we differ. 

IMO most people think the CHristian is closed minded, but in actuality I find that they can be far more open minded than some. For example, because I believe God's designed it all & guides it as he sees fit, I'm not held to my thinking inside a box. An example of that could be when God stopped the sun in the sky for Joshua. THinking that GOd can do anything & everything he does is for the good & part of His plan it opens up an entire world of opportunities & possibilities. I think sometimes CHristianity is sold as a box of rules & regulations & in reality Jesus spoke the opposite. N ot letter of the law but the spirit. Can you work on the sabbath? Not supposed to, but if its necessary than yes. Not to be a broken record (thats what we old folk used to listen to music on way back when  ) but Love God more than anything else & love your neighbor more than yourself. Can you steal? no. Can you steal to feed a starving group? Of course. 

Problem is, in my disgrace, "christians" have been a bunch of dumb-asses. They used to convert people then kill them right away, the logic being they would die & goto heaven before they could screw up & sin. Logically it makes sense I guess, but I'm pretty sure that was not what the Lord intended. 

Fark. If we could just keep it simple. Christian=One who follows Christ. One who follows Christ does his will, we get what his will was from what we read in the New Testament. Almost everything I ever hear about why Christian are nuts has to do with things that have been done in His name that have nothing to do with what we read in His word. If their doing something other than that, their not Christians. Hard to say your an evolutionist if you don't believe in evolution. Hard to say your a banker if you don't work in a bank & don't know anything about banks. 

Man I ramble.

Anyways. I have absolutely enjoyed this debate even though I still have no idea how to quote  I will try to continue this but i do have this silly thing called a job I have to deal with  My replies may be delayed more than they have been.

 Later Gator O Angelic Carl (laugh.. not even close )


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 26, 2012)

Just because you believe something, does not mean you know it. Say you believe 5+5 = 11, it makes no difference, through careful study, and rigorous testing... it is easy to see that the answer is 10. 

A lot of people confuse belief with things that can and do have evidence to support their claims, with belief in the metaphysical/theological/spiritual aspects in which no evidence can be found to support their claims.

We don't have to have a belief that 5+5 = 10 in order to know that it is the right answer, because regardless if we have the belief that it is or isn't 10, it makes no difference, the answer is 10.

When you start to claim truth to ideas that cannot stand up to the scrutinies of science and the validation of tangible evidence, you have NOTHING to base your claims on... but faith. 
Faith-Believing in something where no tangible evidence can be taken into consideration (Believing in something because you want to, period) -same thing as lying to yourself.

When you make assumptions based on the rigorous testing and scrutinies of the scientific method, we begin to form ideas based on tangible evidence, we scientists know that all of our ideas (not beliefs) will never be out of reach of doubt, and if any evidence shows up that contradicts whatever ideas we may have about how the universe works, we must, and will, take this evidence into consideration and begin the search all over again.

Examples:

I know that the big bang is what created the universe-False
I believe (claim truth to) that the big bang created the universe-False

Taking into consideration everything we know about the universe, how it works, and the chemical/biological processes it goes through, the IDEA that the big bang created the universe (SO FAR) seems as if it is the closest approximation to the truth. -True

We can say the same thing about evolution, accept when dealing with evolution, there is even more evidence to draw a conclusion on.

Scientists who are not restricted by their emotions do not hold onto any beliefs, understanding that everything is subject to change if the right amount of contradictory evidence is found, which is why we only claim closest approximation to the truth when taking into consideration all evidence.

"Science can tell us the closest we can get to what we know, but what we know is little, and if we forget how much we do not know we become insensitive to many things of very great importance in the universe.
Theology/metaphysics/spirituality on the other hand, enduces the dogmatic belief that we have knowledge, when in fact we have ignorance, and by doing so generates a kind of impertinent insolence towards the universe. 
Uncertainty in the presence of vivid hopes and fears is painful, but must be endured if we wish to live life without the support of comforting fairytales." -Russell


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## cannofbliss (Apr 26, 2012)

oh and just to interject into the conversation lol 

5+5=10 only because we say so and because we created the "language" that came through the observation of quantities... 

the mind takes what is random and puts order to it... so we really have literally "no choice" otherwise to observe "reality" as our entire bodies and senses have been developed through billions of years of adaptation, selection, mutation, and variation...

could there be an "entity" that is invariably "larger than us" or outside our realm of relativity?

sure its possible, just as im sure the idea had come up before long ago... for all we know we could be the size of bacteria on the arm of another creature 

but is that "creature" or the "nature we observe" a deity??? certainly not... just as much as bacteria cannot communicate or pray to us... 

we just dont know how "expansive" reality is and for that matter we may really never know... because as it stands... our species is only finite and there may not be enough "time" for successive generations of us to ever come to really know what everything really is... 


all id like to say is... perhaps one day, maybe we will find out...


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 26, 2012)

^like, very cool.


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## Dislexicmidget2021 (Apr 26, 2012)

Doer said:


> I think the answer might be more frightening. We had to invent time and now time is our master. It doesn't exist, yet it rules our existence. I'm not going to re-tread my ideas on Now. They are in other posts. Let's just agree that when we die, time collapses for us.
> 
> We know the mind is subject to vast and apparently limitless time dilations. Asleep or awake. What if we make our heaven and we make our hell? It's quite common to hear reports about "my entire life flashed in front of me." More incredible time dilation. "Time stood still while the accident happen." On an on, we live in elastic preception, and to make sense of that, we invented time.
> 
> We also know the brain releases all it's dopamine, and other chemicals at death which can make a pleasure dream or mixed with fear can make a hellish dream. What if, with the proper knowledge and training, that last micosecond of death dream can be Eternity, thru time dilation?




^Like^Awesome concept!


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## cannofbliss (Apr 26, 2012)

Dislexicmidget2021 said:


> ^Like^Awesome concept!


yes... it is an awesome concept and very true that our perceptions greatly vary the "amount" of time perceived changes from one person to the next, even in the essence of neurotransmisson by chemical alteration...

however time does exist, in the form of "space" or the "expansion of dimension" because it is space that creates time... as time would not exist without space between two objects... and on a secondary level time exists as the movement of objects through space...

seeing as if there was no distance between two objects then they obviously (wouldnt be "two" objects) and thus wouldnt take any "time" for one object to travel to the other... nor would there be any movement of points of those objects through any dimension of space either...


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## DreamTime (Apr 26, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> IMO most people think the CHristian is closed minded, but in actuality I find that they can be far more open minded than some. For example, because I believe God's designed it all & guides it as he sees fit, I'm not held to my thinking inside a box.


This is a very gross generalization, but I would propose that its not that Christians are more open minded, but that they can be more gullible. From a fundamentalist Christian perspective, the primary test of any theory or hypothesis is whether or not it conflicts with their faith. After that I would suggest that emotional resonance is the next test - Does the theory support my self-image, existing world view, etc. Testing a theory or hypothesis using critical thinking or scientific methodology isnt likely to occur. Hence the scope of ideas that a Christian is willing to seriously consider is quite likely to be very different than the ideas considered by an Atheist or someone who understands critical thinking. However, I would not characterize this as being more open minded.


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## Heisenberg (Apr 26, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> BUT what if what you believe is correct? I had faith & believe that 5+5 is 10. I know that 5+5 is 10. Therefore sometimes (& I mean this is the MOST STRICT NARROW FOCUS) you can be closed minded about something that is a fact. Gravity I think is a fact.
> 
> Belief becomes fact when its proven.


 

Math has it's own internal logic system. Getting 10 from adding 5+5 is not a belief so much as a result. It requires no faith to believe this result to be accurate, as it can be completely demonstrated and tested. If you are gonna define faith as the stock we put in prior knowledge or results, then you have changed the context and are no longer talking about religious faith. Placing trust in answers that are indistinguishable from guesses is a very different act, no results to point to, nothing that can be demonstrated.



> All my point is that until something is proved, it is just that, a belief. Science can then be called a belief system. A logical, self studying constantly to impart new information, but at its core, its a belief system.


Spot on. Science is indeed a belief system, as is skepticism.




> Since its a belief system is has as much validity as the Christian belief system & vice versa. I'm not talking about beliefs such as no lipstick or your going to hell. That in my opinion, is the kind of beliefs that myself & I believe most people have the issues with. Belief in a creator is different that belief in what the rules are.


Are all systems equally effective? If I say a pyramid scheme is an investment system, does it now have equal validity as savings bonds? The two systems you describe conflict with each other, and we need only look at the answers each has given us to decide which is more effective, more valid. If your logic held true, we would have to give equal validity to all belief systems, including tea leaf reading, astrology, homeopathy and rabbits feet. You yourself separate the belief of 'no lipstick' from creation, what is the differentiating feature that causes you to view these as separate? Do they not come from the same authority, the same belief system? If you honestly define that difference in your head you will be much closer to understanding the difference I see between science and creationism.

The question of how were the fundamental forces of the universe authored is an intriguing one, and one that science is trying to answer. Science is just not comfortable going from 'unexplained' to 'explained by god' with no rationale in between. Wouldn't you agree that we must understand what those forces are and how they act, we must describe and define them, before we can hope to understand where they came from? Which belief system has given us the most strides in this area? It might have been helpful if the creator mentioned something about gravity, thermodynamics, or even germ theory in the book he wrote for us, but he seemed more concerned with human sacrifice and controlling women.


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## carl.burnette (Apr 26, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Math has it's own internal logic system. Getting 10 from adding 5+5 is not a belief so much as a result. It requires no faith to believe this result to be accurate, as it can be completely demonstrated and tested. If you are gonna define faith as the stock we put in prior knowledge or results, then you have changed the context and are no longer talking about religious faith. Placing trust in answers that are indistinguishable from guesses is a very different act, no results to point to, nothing that can be demonstrated.
> 
> 
> 
> Spot on. Science is indeed a belief system, as is skepticism.





Heisenberg said:


> Are all systems equally effective? If I say a pyramid scheme is an investment system, does it now have equal validity as savings bonds? The two systems you describe conflict with each other, and we need only look at the answers each has given us to decide which is more effective, more valid. If your logic held true, we would have to give equal validity to all belief systems, including tea leaf reading, astrology, homeopathy and rabbits feet. You yourself separate the belief of 'no lipstick' from creation, what is the difference that causes you to view these as separate? Do they not come from the same authority, the same belief system? If you honestly define that difference in your head you will be much closer to understanding the difference I see between science and creationism.
> 
> The question of how were the fundamental forces of the universe authored is an intriguing one, and one that science is trying to answer. Science is just not comfortable going from 'unexplained' to 'explained by god' with no rationale in between. Wouldn't you agree that we must understand what those forces are and how they act, we must describe and define them, before we can hope to understand where they came from? Which belief system has given us the most strides in this area? It might have been helpful is the creator mentioned something about gravity, thermodynamics, or even germ theory in the book he wrote for us, but he seemed more concerned with human sacrifice and controlling women.


Damn I want to break this quote up. 

To your part on math isn't so much a fact as a result. You weren't with me at my math exam. Trust me, there was a lot of faith based answers there baby  Lots of prayer too!

I am no scholar by any means, but you say it would be helpful if the creator mentioned things like gravity & what not & you even mention germ theory. I can't write it all, but a google search would help. In Leviticus 15:13 it talks about washing under running water (not standing water) after touching a dead person, also, something about all the open containers in the room where they died were to be burned or something like that. (I am so sorry I don't have the time to quote it). We didn't know the details of germs then, but He gave us instructions that certainly go along with the knowledge of germs. What I tell my kids is obedience does not require understanding. Sounds mean & callus, but I was in the army. When they yelled get down, you didn't look around. Know what I mean? 

Remember, this was written thousands of years ago long before any understanding of germs, microbiology & the likes.

THere is also, in JOb I think where it says that He hung the earth on nothing, which is where it sits in the universe, like floating. MOst other religions have the earth sitting the back of a turtle or some other place, but the bible says hung on nothing. 

The round earth is mentioned in there too. Once again, sorry I don't have the exact quote, God bless google  The word for round earth in the greek refers to a sphere, not a disk.

The complete hydrocycle (this may be the wrong word. Im referring to rain falls, collects, evaporates & then it rains again) is covered. 


It's interesting how a group of people can look at something & both get 2 totally different EUREKA moments. We study the forces of the universe & see how intricate they are, how balanced, how perfect & an atheist says EUREKA! See, no designer required! A Christian say EUREKA! Look! Proof God's work is perfect! 

The more they look into how things work, the more, to me anyways, the more it proves to me that there HAD to be some kind of designer. 

I'm sure you've heard the arguments like look at a Ferrari. took a team of engineers & designers, trades people, scientist etc etc to make it come together. Thats NOTHING compared to even the simplest model of any part of the universe or how the smallest little bug works. I hate to regurgitate others arguments, but its kind of pretty good point. A little simplified, but it is logical.

I'm in my 40's & I wish I had 25 years back. I would have studied astro physics till I was dead. Instead Im a business man in the homebuilding industry. The forces of nature & physics & all that stuff. Too late now though, but I can still do it as a hobby  I can totally understand why the job with the highest rate of religious people is astronomy. HOnestly, I can't understand (& this in not an insult of any kind) how anyone can look up at the night sky, with all the knowledge we have & to be honest I don't think we've scratched the surface of it, & not think that there has to be SOMETHING that created the beauty, wonder & mechanics of the universe. 

I hate water mellon more than life itself. Makes me puke even the smell, but almost everyone else loves it. Viva La Differance!!

Wether you believe in a creator or not, its still all fucking amazing! EVerything made from the same stuff. electrons & such. You add hydrogen & some oxygen & damn it they make water! You add this & that & fuck, its something else, but it all works together. As a Christian I can totally understand where the bible says (actually I think it was Christ himself) that people started worshiping the creation instead of the creator. 

From my point of view (No one is required to agree.. this is just a statement. If you yell at me its like yelling at me because I like red cars. Im allowed to like red cars & Im not brainwashed by my fathers belief system because I like red cars  ) if what He made is this amazing, hell, He must be worthy & My honest prayer & hope is that I can sit down & have a conversation with him. I bet you would too. (That is IF there is a creator, which I am not saying you do.) someday.. I picture like the Simpsons when Homer goes to meet God. No robes or clouds though  Well.. maybe.. 


Did you know that on the Simpsons the only character drawn with 5 fingers is God? Wow, how did we get here? NOt quite the astro physical deep thoughts of previous posts 

Honestly neither will know for sure till their dead & then they can't tell anyone  Bummer... 

There was a preacher I heard once named Daryl Gillard, this was probably 20-25 years ago, but it was fantastic. It was called God or Gorilla. Best 30 minutes you can spend. EVen if its just to laugh & disagree. He had full facts, figures. Laws of thermal dynamics etc. I don't know how people can remember all those fact & figures. [/COLOR] 

Just looked it up. FOund the sermon & Its still great, he has had issues though.. sigh.. high & mighty just means further to fall I guess.


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## carl.burnette (Apr 26, 2012)

Nitegazer said:


> Kevin,
> 
> I think this quote from an interview between Dan Rather and Mother Teresa in 1998 speaks to this.
> 
> ...


Its interesting that you mention Paul talking about damnation & such. Do you hold the gospels & the words of Christ above the rest of the bible? 

In my own walk, I've questioned that myself. Christ's message was so much simpler than the rest of the new testament. 

Talking to various pastors the general consensus is all the bible is equal. All of it inspired by God. I believe the jist of it certainly is. The core message, Love God more than yourself & love your neighbor more than yourself. Belief in Christ & the salvation he offered to those that followed him & such. Although I think it was Paul who said something like if your gonna argue about it (he was referring to rules of worship or lifestyle or something like that) than just forget it & focus on the basics (terrible paraphrase).


----------



## Heisenberg (Apr 26, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> Damn I want to break this quote up.
> 
> To your part on math isn't so much a fact as a result. You weren't with me at my math exam. Trust me, there was a lot of faith based answers there baby  Lots of prayer too!


Haha, indeed. I suppose there was a fair amount of faith involved in my math exams as well.

This might help you learn quoting. Skip to about 1 min 30 seconds into it, the intro is not important.

[video=youtube;nrqLv__bFzk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrqLv__bFzk[/video]


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## mindphuk (Apr 26, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> THere is also, in JOb I think where it says that He hung the earth on nothing, which is where it sits in the universe, like floating. MOst other religions have the earth sitting the back of a turtle or some other place, but the bible says hung on nothing.


The Bible also talks about the pillars of the earth. In Job 9:6 it says, "Who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars (_ydwmu_) tremble." The LXX says, "Who shakes the earth under heaven from its and its pillars (_stuloi_) totter." In Psalm 75:3 it says, "The earth and all its inhabitants are melting away; I set firm its pillars (_ydwmu_)." The LXX says, "I have strengthened its pillars (_stuloi_)." In I Samuel 2:8 it says, "For the pillars of the earth are the Lords and he had set the world upon them."
foundations 
 There are also numerous passages that mention the four corners of the earth and the ends of the earth. 




> The round earth is mentioned in there too. Once again, sorry I don't have the exact quote, God bless google  The word for round earth in the greek refers to a sphere, not a disk.


Really? You can't find the quote but you're so sure? Sorry but Isaiah 40:22 was written in Hebrew, not Greek. They used the Hebrew word for circle (chug), i.e a flat disc, not ball or sphere (dur) The author could have easily used the Hebrew word dur, if they intended to depict the earth as a sphere. 

This appears to be a case of the religionist trying to apply current knowledge to retroactively fit the bible. If the bible was so damn clear that the earth was a sphere, whey did religious people ignore the ancient Greeks for so long (they figured out the earth was a sphere by the scientific process, not by revelation in a book) and insist we lived on a flat plane? 


> It's interesting how a group of people can look at something & both get 2 totally different EUREKA moments. We study the forces of the universe & see how intricate they are, how balanced, how perfect & an atheist says EUREKA! See, no designer required! A Christian say EUREKA! Look! Proof God's work is perfect!


It is interesting how the theist posits the idea of a designer into everything even if there is actually no evidence for one. The Xian saying that this is proof that god's creation is perfect is clearly circular logic. 



> The more they look into how things work, the more, to me anyways, the more it proves to me that there HAD to be some kind of designer.


I would agree that nature often demonstrates the appearance of design. What science has done is demonstrate how this appearance of design can arise from completely natural processes. Anyone that continues to tout design, has not fully understood the implications of the facts that science has uncovered. 


> I can totally understand why the job with the highest rate of religious people is astronomy.



This sounds like a made up statistic. It goes against every survey that I have ever seen. Do you have any support for this claim?


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## axionjaxson (Apr 26, 2012)

I claim Jesus Christ as my savior and Gods Son.


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## carl.burnette (Apr 26, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> The Bible also talks about the pillars of the earth. In Job 9:6 it says, "Who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars (_ydwmu_) tremble." The LXX says, "Who shakes the earth under heaven from its and its pillars (_stuloi_) totter." In Psalm 75:3 it says, "The earth and all its inhabitants are melting away; I set firm its pillars (_ydwmu_)." The LXX says, "I have strengthened its pillars (_stuloi_)." In I Samuel 2:8 it says, "For the pillars of the earth are the Lord&#8217;s and he had set the world upon them."
> foundations
> There are also numerous passages that mention the four corners of the earth and the ends of the earth.
> 
> ...


Great, another experienced post breaker upper  

I am by far no scholar. I've said that many times. My posts have been labels many times as simply my opinion. I suggested that people look it up for themselves. I didn't say take my word for it.

Kinda harsh to be jumping in accusingly & what not. "Really? You can't find the quote but you're so sure? Sorry but Isaiah 40:22 was written in Hebrew, not Greek. They used the Hebrew word for circle (chug), i.e a flat disc, not ball or sphere (dur) The author could have easily used the Hebrew word dur, if they intended to depict the earth as a sphere. " Review the quote & I said to look it up yourself. Don't take my word for it. 

You also in your post mention "This appears to be a case of the religionist trying to apply current knowledge to retroactively fit the bible. If the bible was so damn clear that the earth was a sphere, whey did religious people ignore the ancient Greeks for so long (they figured out the earth was a sphere by the scientific process, not by revelation in a book) and insist we lived on a flat plane? " 

Your jumping in to a conversation that is pointing out that religious people are for the most part incorrect as to what they do in regards to God's word (the Bible). But that's ok. Glad to have another person to enjoy a good debate over these things.

Your comment of "This sounds like a made up statistic. It goes against every survey that I have ever seen. Do you have any support for this claim?" I am using knowledge based on conversations I've had with people over the years. I have no page or book I can reference. 

I think your missing the point of this conversation/thread. This is not an argument or a harsh conversation. Just a couple guys discussing how they look at the universe differently. Nones trying to convert anyone. Hell, read the previous posts. I've mentioned many times that I disagree with most of what is done in God's name. My father was a pastor & I have been involved with churches, as an insider for years.

I would love to enjoy a continued debate, but please, lose the harsh tones. That's not what its about. We can agree to disagree as much as you want. I can believe that the clouds are angels & they wipe my ass for me daily & that's my right to believe that. I;m not & have not once told anyone I was correct, or "forced" my opinions on anyone. I have beliefs & I enjoy discussing them with others but in a non-insulting manner. My beliefs are not what most Christians would say are theirs,as you can read in my previous posts.

I totally agree that there is no hard & fast proof of a designer. Neither is there hard fast proof that there isn't. BOth arguments hold the same validity. I choose to believe that there was & you choose to believe there wasn't. I'm not calling you a heathen ignorant monkey lover & you're not going to call me a brainwashed, religious zealot. 

If you want to join in please, feel free but under those conditions of respect & tolerance. If your going to spout militant ant-God positions please go to another thread, were having fun in the kids sandbox. Hope you stay though. HOpe you actually go back & read some of the posts. BOth myself & Heisenburg have been having some good conversation. He's made some excellent points & I've enjoyed it immensely that it hasn't gone down the path where most of these type of conversation end up. Name calling & immature posts. Its been great so far so please, & if Im wrong please tell me as I may be jumping the gun here, don't take it down that path. 

Actually, I just realized that we sort of took over the poor O.P's thread.. Sorry about that. Dear OP. If you want I will certainly move to another thread. PLease let me know.

Hey... that's what Christopher Columbus did to the new world in the name of the Church! 

oh shit...


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## Heisenberg (Apr 26, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> I am no scholar by any means, but you say it would be helpful if the creator mentioned things like gravity & what not & you even mention germ theory. I can't write it all, but a google search would help. In Leviticus 15:13 it talks about washing under running water (not standing water) after touching a dead person, also, something about all the open containers in the room where they died were to be burned or something like that. (I am so sorry I don't have the time to quote it). We didn't know the details of germs then, but He gave us instructions that certainly go along with the knowledge of germs. What I tell my kids is obedience does not require understanding. Sounds mean & callus, but I was in the army. When they yelled get down, you didn't look around. Know what I mean?
> 
> Remember, this was written thousands of years ago long before any understanding of germs, microbiology & the likes.
> 
> ...


Interesting how the level of knowledge imparted on these subjects coincides with what men knew at the time. We knew washing hands helped prevent disease long before we knew why. In fact, religion often supplied demons or curses as the reason. What I am looking for as proof of divinity is something unknowable by man at the time, like e=mc2, or even just the idea of antibiotics. It would seem a creator who writes a book entailing creation could mention at least one thing about the design that was privileged knowledge for the times. If not, then we have nothing to set holy books apart from any other books of the time in terms of truth value.

Was he simply putting into terms humans could understand at the time? That would seem strange, since, being omniscient, he must have known we would be looking at the bible today, capable of understanding higher concepts than back then.



> It's interesting how a group of people can look at something & both get 2 totally different EUREKA moments. We study the forces of the universe & see how intricate they are, how balanced, how perfect & an atheist says EUREKA! See, no designer required! A Christian say EUREKA! Look! Proof God's work is perfect!


Again, the skeptic says the mystery needs no designer, and without some sort of rational arrows pointing in the direction of creation, it is irresponsible and disingenuous to say it's true. The creationist simply says reality is complicated, therefore god. The second is operating on intuition, which science has come to rightfully distrust. Intuition tells us the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it. It is only careful study, systematic doubt, which leads us to the apparent truth.




> The more they look into how things work, the more, to me anyways, the more it proves to me that there HAD to be some kind of designer.


Please watch this. It's short and to the point.
[video=youtube;4238NN8HMgQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4238NN8HMgQ[/video]



> I'm sure you've heard the arguments like look at a Ferrari. took a team of engineers & designers, trades people, scientist etc etc to make it come together. Thats NOTHING compared to even the simplest model of any part of the universe or how the smallest little bug works. I hate to regurgitate others arguments, but its kind of pretty good point. A little simplified, but it is logical.


Imagine the car that could be built with millions of years of trial and error coupled with an unrelenting and precise pressure to produce success.



> I'm in my 40's & I wish I had 25 years back. I would have studied astro physics till I was dead. Instead Im a business man in the homebuilding industry. The forces of nature & physics & all that stuff. Too late now though, but I can still do it as a hobby  I can totally understand why the job with the highest rate of religious people is astronomy. HOnestly, I can't understand (& this in not an insult of any kind) how anyone can look up at the night sky, with all the knowledge we have & to be honest I don't think we've scratched the surface of it, & not think that there has to be SOMETHING that created the beauty, wonder & mechanics of the universe.


I totally connect with you one the wonder of it all. This is what gives me inspiration in life. True mystery. It's something I try to take in whenever possible. Lately, thanks to the posters here, I have been fascinated with the idea that our past or future is someone else's now, but that is beyond the scope of this post.

I think you would enjoy reading pale blue dot by Carl Sagan. It shares the awe you and I find in astrology and IMO, masterfully explains the perspective any person who is honest with themselves should share. Here are a few quotes.

_The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot.
_
_Look back again at the pale blue dot of the preceding chapter. Take a good long look at it. Stare at the dot for any length of time and then try to convince yourself that God created the whole Universe for one of the 10 million or so species of life that inhabit that speck of dust. Now take it a step further: Imagine that everything was made just for a single shade of that species, or gender, or ethnic or religious subdivision. If this doesnt strike you as unlikely, pick another dot. Imagine it to be inhabited by a different form of intelligent life. They, too, cherish the notion of a God who has created everything for their benefit. How seriously do you take their claim? 
_


> I hate water mellon more than life itself. Makes me puke even the smell, but almost everyone else loves it. Viva La Differance!!


If we allowed personal taste to influence science, we would have found ourselves wrong or ignorant on many subjects we take for granted today. Following evidence without bias to wherever it leads is integral to successful investigation.



> Wether you believe in a creator or not, its still all fucking amazing! EVerything made from the same stuff. electrons & such. You add hydrogen & some oxygen & damn it they make water! You add this & that & fuck, its something else, but it all works together. As a Christian I can totally understand where the bible says (actually I think it was Christ himself) that people started worshiping the creation instead of the creator.
> 
> From my point of view (No one is required to agree.. this is just a statement. If you yell at me its like yelling at me because I like red cars. Im allowed to like red cars & Im not brainwashed by my fathers belief system because I like red cars  ) if what He made is this amazing, hell, He must be worthy & My honest prayer & hope is that I can sit down & have a conversation with him. I bet you would too. (That is IF there is a creator, which I am not saying you do.) someday.. I picture like the Simpsons when Homer goes to meet God. No robes or clouds though  Well.. maybe..


Yes, if there is a creator I want to know about it. I have a few things i'd like to ask. I am totally open to evidence or reasoning that would lead me to him. This is one of the reasons why I spend so much time thinking about it, and why I enjoy conversations such as this.


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## carl.burnette (Apr 26, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> The Bible also talks about the pillars of the earth. In Job 9:6 it says, "Who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars (_ydwmu_) tremble." The LXX says, "Who shakes the earth under heaven from its and its pillars (_stuloi_) totter." In Psalm 75:3 it says, "The earth and all its inhabitants are melting away; I set firm its pillars (_ydwmu_)." The LXX says, "I have strengthened its pillars (_stuloi_)." In I Samuel 2:8 it says, "For the pillars of the earth are the Lord&#8217;s and he had set the world upon them."
> foundations
> There are also numerous passages that mention the four corners of the earth and the ends of the earth.
> 
> ...


Great, another experienced post breaker upper  

I am by far no scholar. I've said that many times. My posts have been labels many times as simply my opinion. I suggested that people look it up for themselves. I didn't say take my word for it.

Kinda harsh to be jumping in accusingly & what not. "Really? You can't find the quote but you're so sure? (*Actaully, reread my posts, never said i was "SO SURE")*Sorry but Isaiah 40:22 was written in Hebrew, not Greek. They used the Hebrew word for circle (chug), i.e a flat disc, not ball or sphere (dur) The author could have easily used the Hebrew word dur, if they intended to depict the earth as a sphere. " Review the quote & I said to look it up yourself. Don't take my word for it. Also, would it not have been written in Sanskrit? I thought the ancient greek was just the first translations. Usually when I've talked to scholars they talk about the greek.

You also in your post mention "This appears to be a case of the religionist trying to apply current knowledge to retroactively fit the bible. If the bible was so damn clear that the earth was a sphere, whey did religious people ignore the ancient Greeks for so long (they figured out the earth was a sphere by the scientific process, not by revelation in a book) and insist we lived on a flat plane? " 

Your jumping in to a conversation that is pointing out that religious people are for the most part incorrect as to what they do in regards to God's word (the Bible). But that's ok. Glad to have another person to enjoy a good debate over these things.

Your comment of "This sounds like a made up statistic. It goes against every survey that I have ever seen. Do you have any support for this claim?" I am using knowledge based on conversations I've had with people over the years. I have no page or book I can reference. Just curious, have you studied it too? Just for this moment when someone like me MAY reference something? 

To be honest, I tried to look it up after I read your post & couldn't find shit. I chalk it up to hearing things & assuming them true. Like in the bible. We all have things we know that are in there. Like how many wise men were at the birth of Christ & where was he when they found him.. Cute little baby Jesus in the manger.. 

Actually, & judging by your post & the details of the scriptures you probably know this, but he was about 2 & he was living in a house (Luke I believe) & its doesn't say how many. In actuality, the wise men were King Makers & would have probably had a huge entourage with them.

So is everyone who thought that He as a baby in the manger when they showed up a lier or they made it up? Come on. 

I think your missing the point of this conversation/thread. This is not an argument or a harsh conversation. Just a couple guys discussing how they look at the universe differently. Nones trying to convert anyone. Hell, read the previous posts. I've mentioned many times that I disagree with most of what is done in God's name. My father was a pastor & I have been involved with churches, as an insider for years.

I would love to enjoy a continued debate, but please, lose the harsh tones. That's not what its about. We can agree to disagree as much as you want. I can believe that the clouds are angels & they wipe my ass for me daily & that's my right to believe that. I;m not & have not once told anyone I was correct, or "forced" my opinions on anyone. I have beliefs & I enjoy discussing them with others but in a non-insulting manner. My beliefs are not what most Christians would say are theirs,as you can read in my previous posts.

I totally agree that there is no hard & fast proof of a designer. Neither is there hard fast proof that there isn't. BOth arguments hold the same validity. I choose to believe that there was & you choose to believe there wasn't. I'm not calling you a heathen ignorant monkey lover & you're not going to call me a brainwashed, religious zealot. 

If you want to join in please, feel free but under those conditions of respect & tolerance. If your going to spout militant ant-God positions please go to another thread, were having fun in the kids sandbox. Hope you stay though. HOpe you actually go back & read some of the posts. BOth myself & Heisenburg have been having some good conversation. He's made some excellent points & I've enjoyed it immensely that it hasn't gone down the path where most of these type of conversation end up. Name calling & immature posts. Its been great so far so please, & if Im wrong please tell me as I may be jumping the gun here, don't take it down that path. 

Actually, I just realized that we sort of took over the poor O.P's thread.. Sorry about that. Dear OP. If you want I will certainly move to another thread. PLease let me know.

Hey... that's what Christopher Columbus did to the new world in the name of the Church! 

oh shit... 

Ah, but he didn't offer to move over


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## Moldy (Apr 26, 2012)

I was a Christian in my early days and I beleived what they told me and what I read. When I turned about 7-8 I realized that there wasn't a Santa and this Christ thing was also a story. I'm an athiest but understand other peoples need for religion and a belief system. We all need to realize no matter what we believe is that we treat people as they would want to be treated and stay the fuck out of other people's business even if you don't like it.


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## carl.burnette (Apr 26, 2012)

Moldy said:


> I was a Christian in my early days and I beleived what they told me and what I read. When I turned about 7-8 I realized that there wasn't a Santa and this Christ thing was also a story. I'm an athiest but understand other peoples need for religion and a belief system. We all need to realize no matter what we believe is that we treat people as they would want to be treated and stay the fuck out of other people's business even if you don't like it.


I was headed down that path myself then started reading for myself instead of just listing to others. Opened up a whole new world.


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 26, 2012)

Moldy said:


> I was a Christian in my early days and I beleived what they told me and what I read. When I turned about 7-8 I realized that there wasn't a Santa and this Christ thing was also a story. I'm an athiest but understand other peoples need for religion and a belief system. We all need to realize no matter what we believe is that we treat people as they would want to be treated and stay the fuck out of other people's business even if you don't like it.


I don't care if people make me think about and question my own thoughts and ideas... the thing is, that when you attempt to help others think about and question "beliefs/faith" they get angry, and it is because they claim certainty where none can be found, which results in fallacious and contradictory thinking, which results in denial, anger, and resentment... these emotions are merely a reflection of themselves, but because they are in denial they choose to take it out on others, rather than think about wtf they are thinking about.

Talk shit about my ideas and thoughts all day long, im not going to get offended, because i claim no truth value to any of it. I'm sorry others get offended, but its their own damn fault.


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## BA142 (Apr 26, 2012)

Moldy said:


> We all need to realize no matter what we believe is that we treat people as they would want to be treated and stay the fuck out of other people's business even if you don't like it.


When Religion infiltrates the system like it has, it becomes a problem. It becomes my business. I really don't want members of congress to believe in Noah's ark and that the earth is 6000 years old. That makes me question their intelligence and decision making skills...

Now when it comes to everyday people, I really don't care. Believe in whatever you want to believe in. If it doesn't negatively effect my everyday life, I wont care.


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## jessy koons (Apr 26, 2012)

BA142 said:


> When Religion infiltrates the system like it has, it becomes a problem. It becomes my business. I really don't want members of congress to believe in Noah's ark and that the earth is 6000 years old. That makes me question their intelligence and decision making skills...
> 
> Amen, brother.
> 
> ...


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## mindphuk (Apr 26, 2012)

carl.burnette said:


> Great, another experienced post breaker upper
> 
> I am by far no scholar. I've said that many times. My posts have been labels many times as simply my opinion. I suggested that people look it up for themselves. I didn't say take my word for it.
> 
> ...


Please do not take bluntness and harshness of my tone as disrespect but I am intolerant of claims made without support. Regardless of the forum or friendliness of discussion, I will be especially critical when anyone throws out a statement as if it is fact without any support. You claimed there was a quote in the bible that mentions the earth is a sphere. The most common one that Xians point to is Isaiah 40:22. I stand by what I said. I am unaware of any passage in the bible that uses a word for sphere to describe the earth. You claim to know of one but still can't seem to give me reference and tell me to look it up myself. You tell me not to take your word for it yet you can't tell me where to look it up. Come one. You want respect, than either admit that maybe you made a mistake or offer up the evidence you say is there but please don't tell me to go do your research. 

Yes, I'm jumping in on the conversation. That's what happens in a public forum. When science discovers something and you go back to your religious text to look for passages that might somehow relate to the discovery and use that as evidence of hidden knowledge revealed by god, this to me is extremely disingenuous. Even other Xians on this forum have said as much. If 2000 years of reading the bible did not reveal these 'truths' then this post hoc interpretation is nothing more than trying to cover up flaws in the supposed word of god. It gets worse when the passages are read in the original language. 

I have no problem with you admitting that you have no actual support for your belief that astronomers have a tendency toward theism. I did ask you for support because like I said it goes against everything I know and I know a quite a few cosmologists and astrophysicists and know of many more from their own books and comments. I also know of the studies that show a much lower level of theistic beliefs the more science education a person has with doctorates being the least theistic http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html
I'm curious, was these discussions with people over the years been with astronomers or other Xians making that claim? I hope you can realize that when someone makes a claim that flies in the face of everything I know, it's reasonable I make a comment. I don't have to have to adhere to any point of this conversation except to be reasonable and not make things personal. I hope you can realize I was not attacking you, only your statements. I would expect no less from you if I made an absurd claim about what Jesus said or did. 

I'm not sure why you think I'm spouting militant anti-god positions by requesting that you support your claims. This is one of the tactics I see from theists frequently, complaining about the tone of the discussion when they are the ones that tend to make unsupportable claims. I am always willing to have what-if conversations. However, I am just as blunt when discussing other unsupportable claims such as alien visitation, faked moon landings, global warming conspiracy, or bigfoot and nessie. Even discussions directly with other scientists in my field, our discussions sometimes take on a tone of bitter conflict. However, we all respect and often admire one another. We never make things personal. You should watch a video of scientific proceedings one day. You might be scared a fistfight will break out. Debate can be vigorous and respectful simultaneously, that's merely the nature of argumentation. Do not take directness and brusque tone for being discourteous or impolite. I can be a puppy dog if the discussion warrants. All I ask is that you support claims when asked and acknowledge criticism to your position, either by direct rebuttal or acknowledgement that maybe you should retract your position. 

As for the question of designer. You say the arguments are equally valid. I say no they are not. I think Heisenberg did a good job in post#332 to demonstrate the fallacy of that position. There is a default position that any critical thinker should take, that given anything we are investigating. You seem to want to put a designer in place in spite of not having evidence of a designer because you already believe in a god. This is not an unbiased approach to examining a specific phenomena, and therefore is not as valid as one where no extra complexities are assumed. We have come up with ways to explain how something can appear designed without a designer. Adding a stipulation that there was indeed a designer requires support as it is adding an unnecessary component. Again. Just because I am critical of your thought process does not mean I am implying you are in any way foolish or stupid. I merely want to point out possible errors in your position and hopefully you will reflect on them and either acknowledge them or give a reason why I am wrong. This is the nature of debate. I hope you can understand my position, and I am more than happy to expand on anything that I said that doesn't make sense or you think is in error. In fact, I prefer to be shown why I'm wrong. I am always looking to improve my knowledge and I have found debate to be a good way to expose my own inadequacies in thinking.


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## SomeCanadianDude (Apr 26, 2012)

wow you guys,... wow. im christian btw. but im not going to make any statements to cause a ridiculous argument. just try to be open minded guys. really.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Apr 26, 2012)

SomeCanadianDude said:


> wow you guys,... wow. im christian btw. but im not going to make any statements to cause a ridiculous argument. just try to be open minded guys. really.


Your ancestors werent christian... They knew what was up, free of disease and everything... Then some dirty fuckn white christians came and gave us diseases and raped our culture and took our land in exchange for fire water!... Just a little history lesson for ya xD


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## Heisenberg (Apr 26, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Your ancestors werent christian... They knew what was up, free of disease and everything... Then some dirty fuckn white christians came and gave us diseases and raped our culture and took our land in exchange for fire water!... Just a little history lesson for ya xD


Wow, the Chief actually articulated a point. Praise Jesus!

Even in the initial stages of contact the
attitude towards the Indians was that of Christian superiority.

The Indians were read a proclamation in Spanish which they had no hope of
understanding.


"We ask and require you to acknowledge the church as the ruler and
superior of the whole world and the high priest called pope and in his
name the king of Spain as lords of this land. If you submit we shall
receive you in all love and charity and shall leave you, your wives and
children and your lands free without servitude, but if you do not submit
we shall powerfully enter into your country and shall make war against
you, we shall take you and your wives and your children and shall make
slaves of them and we shall take away your goods and shall do you all
the harm and damage we can."​


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## mindphuk (Apr 27, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Your ancestors werent christian... They knew what was up, free of disease and everything... Then some dirty fuckn white christians came and gave us diseases and raped our culture and took our land in exchange for fire water!... Just a little history lesson for ya xD


Holy shit. +rep Chief!


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 27, 2012)

We r sitting here letting non-Christians shit all over our faith, in their lack thereof... So, if the thought of eternal damnation for their unrepented sins and life of Godlessness upsets them THIS much- to have 350+ posts on here, then there MUST be something to it... Why else would it bother them so much? Just sayin'...


carl.burnette said:


> ??? I don't understand your point. Why would you judge my beliefs? Am I not staunch enough? You want strict? I don't get your point.
> 
> OH well. ITs ok.. I wont lose any sleep over it. I wasn't trying to start an argument. Just stating my opinion. If you disagree that's ok. I have no issues at all.
> 
> ...


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## Doer (Apr 27, 2012)

You assume religion bothers us. The cults get bothered. Bound in their un-questioning damnation for us. We all seem pretty free thinking. We are questioning your faith. This is my duty as a thinking human with compassion. The fallback for religion, is to take offense. Seems a rather fragile faith.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 27, 2012)

U know nothing of faith, or of God... Dont talk to me about what u believe it should be... God, nor His followers wants damnation for anyone... If He wouldn't have given His only Son to be slain, and become the perfect sacrifice for us all, then we would ALL be headed for hell, or eternal separation from God... I dont wish damnation on anyone... U should check your own ignorant beliefs before u come bashing mine... Or as a wise man once said, "You better chiggety check yourself, before you wreggety wreck yourself..."


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## Doer (Apr 27, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> U know nothing of faith, or of God... Dont talk to me about what u believe it should be... God, nor His followers wants damnation for anyone... If He wouldn't have given His only Son to be slain, and become the perfect sacrifice for us all, then we would ALL be headed for hell, or eternal separation from God... I dont wish damnation on anyone... U should check your own ignorant beliefs before u come bashing mine... Or as a wise man once said, "You better chiggety check yourself, before you wreggety wreck yourself..."


Well, there you have it. Total conDAMMnation for a person you don't even know. I know nothing of your cult because I don't beleve in the cult. If I believe in the cult then I have fear of your damnation. And then the implied threat of damnation at the end. In the middle is the butt sandwich. We don't really want to damn you, buttttttttt....

BTW, "he gave his son to be slain" is not a fact and was not postulated by Jesus. More Cult logic.

I fear no evil, as I am quite comfortable with my growing Knowledge of Self.


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## cannofbliss (Apr 27, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> We r sitting here letting non-Christians shit all over our faith, in their lack thereof... So, if the thought of eternal damnation for their unrepented sins and life of Godlessness upsets them THIS much- to have 350+ posts on here, then there MUST be something to it... Why else would it bother them so much? Just sayin'...



not this bullshit reasoning again??? come on seriously???

attention atheists dont waste your time arguing with superstitious people... it'll save you alot of grief... its like a geographer trying to have a conversation and explain that the earth is a sphere with a "flat earther"...

its just fucking stupid...

enjoy this vid... btw 

[video=youtube;3fhvmg9oiWU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fhvmg9oiWU[/video]


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## Heisenberg (Apr 27, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> We r sitting here letting non-Christians shit all over our faith, in their lack thereof... So, if the thought of eternal damnation for their unrepented sins and life of Godlessness upsets them THIS much- to have 350+ posts on here, then there MUST be something to it... Why else would it bother them so much? Just sayin'...


Proof of God #129

ARGUMENT FROM INTEREST
(1) If God really doesn&#8217;t exist than atheists wouldn&#8217;t spend so much time talking about him.
(2) [Atheist says anything]
(3) Therefore, God exists.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 27, 2012)

^ (cannofbliss) do you play sports at all? Just curious


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 27, 2012)

...you know what's kind of funny? I've been a 'believer' my whole life and not once did I look at an atheist sideways. The whole debate is comical when you really _think_ about it. Lots of assumptions - on both sides. (assumptions -  )


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## Dizzle Frost (Apr 27, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Your ancestors werent christian... They knew what was up, free of disease and everything... Then some dirty fuckn white christians came and gave us diseases and raped our culture and took our land in exchange for fire water!... Just a little history lesson for ya xD


 fuck yeah! 

i come from celtic and pagan blood .... im with you on this one my kneegrow!


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## Doer (Apr 27, 2012)

*attention atheists dont waste your time arguing with superstitious people... it'll save you alot of grief... its like a geographer trying to have a conversation and explain that the earth is a sphere with a "flat earther"...

*I don't see it a waste of time or gathering any grief. I'm not an atheist, so I don't take the position of no god, I take the position of know now. It requires a big effort to be NOW.

If one can be now then one will know. Those that don't know, argue theology and the interpretations of seers. Where has gone the basic "know thyself?"


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 27, 2012)

Doer said:


> *attention atheists dont waste your time arguing with superstitious people... it'll save you alot of grief... its like a geographer trying to have a conversation and explain that the earth is a sphere with a "flat earther"...
> 
> *I don't see it a waste of time or gathering any grief. I'm not an atheist, so I don't take the position of no god, I take the position of know now. It requires a big effort to be NOW.
> 
> If one can be now then one will know. Those that don't know, argue theology and the interpretations of seers. Where has gone the basic "know thyself?"


...amen to that


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 27, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...amen to that


Living life in the present instead of living for the past or future, has nothing to do with anything spiritual at all. I live in the moment because its all im ever going to have, this moment right now. Living in the "now" will not allow you to know of anything metaphysical or theological.


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## Doer (Apr 27, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Living life in the present instead of living for the past or future, has nothing to do with anything spiritual at all. I live in the moment because its all im ever going to have, this moment right now. Living in the "now" will not allow you to know of anything metaphysical or theological.


You are right and wrong. No need to know anything metaphysical or theological in NOW. But, I'm not talking in the moment. I mean so now, we are not listening to our inner dialog. Those dialogs are sequences and concern the past and future, expectation and regret. Everyone has this. They are time bound sequences that have nothing to do with now. When you spend the effort one can immerse into NOW, for "brief" timeless moments.

My experience is Knowledge of Self. It's what all the metaphysical and theological natter is about, seems to me. The mind-cloud is nothing and will perish. Knowledge starts when we are calmly and thoughtlessly now. It's like music, harmony here. Hard to explain. What is the feeling of your favorite song? Hard to explain and it kind of doesn't come close to describe why that song makes you feel. Explainations seem worthless and there is no need to explain. Just listen. Music expresses itself as we listen. Same as NOW.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Apr 27, 2012)

Doer - are you involved in marine construction?
Interesting Avi.


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## Doer (Apr 27, 2012)

Does gold panning count?  I was looking for something to go with my forum name. Found that logo. 

Defense Operations Engineering Resource or some such.


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## PrivateEye6 (Apr 27, 2012)

Religion sucks 

I dont need a church to feel safe for when I die. I am free i am fearless, I worry not of retaliation for my sins or expect anything in return for my good deeds. We are here to learn and "god" loving death fearing people shall live in the shadows. Im not one to follow trends or adopt an others reasoning and belief system and for that reason Im able to tap into otherwise hidden potentials. Free your soul and you'll see.


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 28, 2012)

Doer said:


> You are right and wrong. No need to know anything metaphysical or theological in NOW. But, I'm not talking in the moment. I mean so now, we are not listening to our inner dialog. Those dialogs are sequences and concern the past and future, expectation and regret. Everyone has this. They are time bound sequences that have nothing to do with now. When you spend the effort one can immerse into NOW, for "brief" timeless moments.
> 
> My experience is Knowledge of Self. It's what all the metaphysical and theological natter is about, seems to me. The mind-cloud is nothing and will perish. Knowledge starts when we are calmly and thoughtlessly now. It's like music, harmony here. Hard to explain. What is the feeling of your favorite song? Hard to explain and it kind of doesn't come close to describe why that song makes you feel. Explainations seem worthless and there is no need to explain. Just listen. Music expresses itself as we listen. Same as NOW.


Experiencing the now happens a lot when i consume large doses of cubensis mushrooms. But i know what you mean, meditation of no-thought. Word to living without regret, but that doesn't mean i will ever forget.


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## Doer (Apr 28, 2012)

....jumping out of an airplane, bombing a downhill ski run, taking that perfectly smooth racing turn up onto the freeway...and certainly, the even more thrilling incidents in life....well....., we are hardly thinking about the grocery list, are we?!  

But, to consciously and regularly practice to un-lax from the mind cloud, it all adds up, it gets better. It is like a light after a while. Always here, more easy to be aware of, to contact quickly, to remain if and when possible, for the Pearls of Great Price. 

Knowledge of Self for the hard won price of un-divided attention.


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## jessy koons (Apr 28, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> U know nothing of faith, or of God... Dont talk to me about what u believe it should be... God, nor His followers wants damnation for anyone... If He wouldn't have given His only Son to be slain, and become the perfect sacrifice for us all, then we would ALL be headed for hell, or eternal separation from God... I dont wish damnation on anyone... U should check your own ignorant beliefs before u come bashing mine... Or as a wise man once said, "You better chiggety check yourself, before you wreggety wreck yourself..."


I don't believe a wise man would say 'chiggety' or even 'wreggety'.


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## cannabineer (Apr 28, 2012)

A wise guy might. cn


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## urbangroop (Apr 29, 2012)

ANother believer here!


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## Doer (Apr 29, 2012)

urbangroop said:


> ANother believer here!


Well, what do you know?!


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## BA142 (Apr 29, 2012)

urbangroop said:


> ANother believer here!


Why do you believe? Because you "feel" God?


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 29, 2012)

BA142 said:


> Why do you believe? Because you "feel" God?



Self-delusion seems to be a defining quality of human behavior. Lies maintain our flimsy order, we find consolation in myths like 'what we do has significance' and 'God punishes the wicked'. The constant avalanche of empirical evidence to the contrary simply gets relegated to the third class bureau of irrational philosophers. Very sad indeed.

Our traditional values are warped; they reflect fantasy not reality. Our values are so removed from actual substance that fantasy becomes reality and truth becomes error. This is the primary difficulty in conveying the meaning of nihilism because all morally loaded concepts are biased against a lucid description of the nihilistic viewpoint. Nietzsche was addressing this issue when he wrote the title and the book Beyond Good and Evil. But it's not just a series of lies it's a debasing and wholly aberrant structure. The problem is so deep that even the words to define it must be replaced with a new lexicon.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 29, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Self-delusion seems to be a defining quality of human behavior. Lies maintain our flimsy order, we find consolation in myths like 'what we do has significance' and 'God punishes the wicked'. The constant avalanche of empirical evidence to the contrary simply gets relegated to the third class bureau of irrational philosophers.


...I kinda thought at first glance that his avatar looked like one of those photocopies of a woman's bottom with a g-string on..._wick-ed_


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## SmokeyMcSmokerton (Apr 29, 2012)

I'm Christian.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 29, 2012)

SmokeyMcSmokerton said:


> I'm Christian.


...riu comes with a support group for that, apparently.


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 29, 2012)

Independent theologies and decentralized organizations have replaced the Church/State monopoly. With the loss of government support (money) the Church has revealed its true nature as the giant predatory profit-motivated scam that it is. The theological monopoly has been broken and now any faith is just as valid as any other is. History will rate the separation of Church and State as one of the most critical pivots of the modern era. The secondary effect of this is that the national population doesn't know which faith to choose, and although religion can't be eliminated it can be easily replaced. Now all the addicts to God will have to make do with a pluralistic methadone.


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## Rascality Afoot (Apr 29, 2012)

I like a good christ-like christian. I just can't see Jesus sitting on a computer made of pure human suffering and trying to make his case on RIU. I can however see him getting crucified by the internet community, so I guess we're both right.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Apr 29, 2012)

These poor christians are still getting picked on? lol Yes, I agree that what they believe in is ridiculous but all the main religions do have slivers of truth and divinity. They get a little respect from me because they acknowledge that theres more to life than what we can experience with our physical senses *cough cough monkey need to see cough cough*. This thread shows that spiritualists arent free to discuss anything without facing reticule from those die-hard atheists. Its funny how they claim that religion separates us (which it does but less so now than in the past) yet here they are in the spiritual forum causing arguments and separation lol Its almost like they are compelled to prove that there is no God... Kinda sounds like religious people being compelled to spread their religion... Im surprised these guys arent knocking on doors asking "Do you want to accept science, reasoning, skeptical thinking and utter lack of imagination as your new morals to live by? The Church of the Almighty Nothing is calling out to you! See all the things that are NOT in store for you when you die! Learn how to laugh without showing any facial expression! At the end of the year we plan to have a parade and march like Nazi's to the Vatican while chanting SCIENCE IS GOD in a monotone manner. Please take this pamphlet on how to re-program your brain so you can be a boring, calculating robot of rationality like we are, we're only being honest with ourselves is all!" ... xD I crack myself up.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 29, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> These poor christians are still getting picked on? lol Yes, I agree that what they believe in is ridiculous but all the main religions do have slivers of truth and divinity. They get a little respect from me because they acknowledge that theres more to life than what we can experience with our physical senses *cough cough monkey need to see cough cough*. This thread shows that spiritualists arent free to discuss anything without facing reticule from those die-hard atheists. Its funny how they claim that religion separates us (which it does but less so now than in the past) yet here they are in the spiritual forum causing arguments and separation lol Its almost like they are compelled to prove that there is no God... Kinda sounds like religious people being compelled to spread their religion... Im surprised these guys arent knocking on doors asking "Do you want to accept science, reasoning, skeptical thinking and utter lack of imagination as your new morals to live by? The Church of the Almighty Nothing is calling out to you! See all the things that are NOT in store for you when you die! Learn how to laugh without showing any facial expression! At the end of the year we plan to have a parade and march like Nazi's to the Vatican while chanting SCIENCE IS GOD in a monotone manner. Please take this pamphlet on how to re-program your brain so you can be a boring, calculating robot of rationality like we are, we're only being honest with ourselves is all!" ... xD I crack myself up.


...we're being asked to describe something with no bounds. It's like skeet shooting for the grounded. The believers fly and *pow*...

It's all fine, but I just can't see life like it's in a beaker.

Heh, beaker


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## tyler.durden (Apr 29, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> These poor christians are still getting picked on? lol Yes, I agree that what they believe in is ridiculous but all the main religions do have slivers of truth and divinity. They get a little respect from me because they acknowledge that *theres more to life than what we can experience with our physical senses **cough cough monkey need to see cough cough*. This thread shows that spiritualists arent free to discuss anything without facing reticule from those die-hard atheists. Its funny how they claim that religion separates us (which it does but less so now than in the past) yet here they are in the spiritual forum causing arguments and separation lol Its almost like they are compelled to prove that there is no God... Kinda sounds like religious people being compelled to spread their religion... Im surprised these guys arent knocking on doors asking "Do you want to accept science, reasoning, skeptical thinking and utter lack of imagination as your new morals to live by? The Church of the Almighty Nothing is calling out to you! See all the things that are NOT in store for you when you die! Learn how to laugh without showing any facial expression! At the end of the year we plan to have a parade and march like Nazi's to the Vatican while chanting SCIENCE IS GOD in a monotone manner. Please take this pamphlet on how to re-program your brain so you can be a boring, calculating robot of rationality like we are, we're only being honest with ourselves is all!" ... xD I crack myself up.


Genuinely inquiring, if we only have experiences via our physical senses, how do you know there is 'more'? IOW if there is something outside our physical senses, how would we know (beside building machines that amplify our senses)?


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 29, 2012)

The idea-ers have a great advantage over the believers... you say believers shoot high, when they stop trying to soar higher and stay at a certain level, never exploring what is above their preferred altitude. The idea-ers fly further than the sky, into outer space, into different galaxies and dimensions, to unlimited heights... for our imaginations are not inhibited by preordained ideas that are grounded in certainty, rather we are continuously being lifted to astounding new heights fueled by mystery.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Apr 29, 2012)

Yet I still look down upon you, even though I shouldnt but you make it hard not to lol


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## cannabineer (Apr 29, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Yet I still look down upon you, even though I [shouldn't,] but you make it hard not to lol


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 29, 2012)

I don't look down upon anyone, but i do somewhat experience a sense of pitty sometimes towards those with so much potential, yet cannot get past the delusion of self willed ignorance in exchange for comforts of made up certainties using faith as the substrate.

(Ive been on a cubensis mushroom kick recently...hehehe)


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Apr 29, 2012)

My belief isnt ignorance. I've experienced amazing things that cemented my belief in spirituality, not that there were any doubts in the first place. When a gifted kid reads your mind and answers a question that you THOUGHT of then later on tells you that "Your faults are what define you, they are the diamond of your being" to put you at ease because your freaking out that a kid is reading every shameful thought you have, it kinda makes you believe in the impossible... Now you either think Im lying or that Im bat-shit crazy, me telling the truth just cant be possible, right? Well Im not lying and I take no shame knowing that you guys think Im bat-shit crazy xD it kinda makes me chuckle actually. I get frustrated sometimes at you atheists but then I think "oh yeah, my good friend has spiritual powers, why am I taking these sheep seriously?" haha. I really dont think that thought often enough when Im arguing on here.


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## tyler.durden (Apr 29, 2012)

xD, indeed...


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 30, 2012)

May i have dudes phone number please? If you can provide me with someone who can give legitament proof of mind reading... it will change EVERYTHING we think we know about the universe, the mind, concsciousness and the way we look at thoughts.

It's weird to me though, that you claim dude can do this... probably what happened, is that he is just a very good guesser, or maybe you just played along because you just REALLY REALLY want mind reading to be possable, so your emotions took control of what you were thinking. That happens to a lot of women, especially my girlfriend when i tell her im not going to be hanging out wih her today. She creates all these images in her mind about me going out with other girls or parties... when really, i just wanna be left alone so i can play some god damn video games without hearing someone bitch and moan the whole time! HAHAHAHA!


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## BA142 (Apr 30, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I get frustrated sometimes at you atheists but then I think "oh yeah, my good friend has spiritual powers, why am I taking these sheep seriously?" haha. I really dont think that thought often enough when Im arguing on here.


Thanks for the Monday morning laugh, I needed that


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Apr 30, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> May i have dudes phone number please? If you can provide me with someone who can give legitament proof of mind reading... it will change EVERYTHING we think we know about the universe, the mind, concsciousness and the way we look at thoughts.
> 
> It's weird to me though, that you claim dude can do this... probably what happened, is that he is just a very good guesser, or maybe you just played along because you just REALLY REALLY want mind reading to be possable, so your emotions took control of what you were thinking. That happens to a lot of women, especially my girlfriend when i tell her im not going to be hanging out wih her today. She creates all these images in her mind about me going out with other girls or parties... when really, i just wanna be left alone so i can play some god damn video games without hearing someone bitch and moan the whole time! HAHAHAHA!


He never told me he was able to read minds before he read my mind, just that he was a creation of Archangel Michael. When he first started talking about this stuff I had the same reaction, which was BULLSHIT! then he said "Dont believe me? I can make you my slave in the afterlife for eternity" then I said "WTF? theres slavery in the afterlife? the bullshit never ends!" of course we both were joking but I still thought he was fucking crazy. But after hearing him talk a few times over the weeks I seen that he actually had some knowledge and insight on spirituality, more than I had at the time, he would say things that Buddha would say and some other divine profound shit. So I started listening to what he says but still acknowledging that hes probably nuts. Everything that I thought was crazy I told him to elaborate on and he did, very interesting and entertaining conversations we had. I was really the only one out of the circle of friends that took interest in what he had to say because I thought his material was fucking GOLD lol That and I was the only one out of the group that had an interest in spirituality... Anyways, a group of us were on a silent walk to go get a bag of weed and I got to thinking about his words. When we were talking about Auras (which I didnt believe in at the time) I told him to study my Aura and tell me what color it was, so he studied me then he got this freaked out facial expression. "what?" I asked, "I dunno man..." he said. Then later he told me that my Aura looked like his when he first realized he had gifts, to which I thought "riiiigghhtt...". ANYWAYS! on that silent walk I THOUGHT in my head "he said I could have a divine Aura like his" and a second later he said out of complete silence "no you cant, Shane" to which I said "WHAATT?!?!" I didnt know what else to say, my mind was completely blown. That is the point were I felt violated and threatend and completely helpless that someone was reading my mind. So in my head I was panicking, worried that he knows all my secrets (not that Im a freak) I was thinking stuff like "Does he know I did this? shit! well he knows now because I thought about it!" and after a while of that panicked thinking he turned to me and said "Shane, your faults are what define you, they are the diamond of your being" and I was calm after that, but it took a while for me to be comfortable around him. Tyler Durdan knows the full story and the other amazing experiences I had with my friend, I think that story is in one of the alien threads. 

I guess I'll ask if hes willing to talk to you but thats a bit disrespectful on my part, drawing attention to my friend like hes some kind of performer. And I do agree that this reality changing information should be made public but I guess he just doesnt want the attention. I told him he has the ability to develop a huge following and make a difference in the world but I dont know, maybe theres some rules he has to abide to like not to abuse his power. Or maybe hes afraid of developing an ego, I simply dont know. He wouldnt even take that amazing Randi guys offer of a million dollars to show him something supernatural. Oh, he did tell me that Christians would probably make him out to be the anti-christ and that he would have an army of bible thumpers to avoid, he also said he would embrace the role of the anti-christ because he really doesnt like christians lol The closest I got to convincing him into spreading his knowledge was telling him to make a profile on the website Mindbook.ws which is a social network of knowledge and spirituality and everything in between. He has yet to do that because its not something he has motivation for I guess. He really is your typical 18 year old skater punk who just wants to chill and party. Evolving his knowledge is something he likes to do on his own I guess, he does include me sometimes but those are just talks, plus I think I know enough in order to teach myself these things (not mind reading but ya know lol)... But yeah, the best I can do for proving this is getting you to talk to him, but even then those are just his words. Theres also someone that he refers to as his master, but he is less tolerant of people so I wont bother him.


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## Doer (Apr 30, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Independent theologies and decentralized organizations have replaced the Church/State monopoly. With the loss of government support (money) the Church has revealed its true nature as the giant predatory profit-motivated scam that it is. The theological monopoly has been broken and now any faith is just as valid as any other is. History will rate the separation of Church and State as one of the most critical pivots of the modern era. The secondary effect of this is that the national population doesn't know which faith to choose, and although religion can't be eliminated it can be easily replaced. Now all the addicts to God will have to make do with a pluralistic methadone.


Perhaps in the 1st world. But, the Mideast Spring is looking more and more like a Jihad Ice Age.


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 30, 2012)

It very well could be cheif, that your friend may have anticipated what you were thinking, or maybe he just said it to see what effect it would have on you... and it just so happened you were thinking something that retained some relevence to what he had just said. 

But im not sure if that thought crossed your mind, because that is just as plausable as someone reading your mind... actually more plausable in my opinion.

Sometimes it seems as if my little brother can "read my mind" but this is merely the expectation and anticipation of a thought that i was going to have... and he guessed right.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 30, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> The idea-ers have a great advantage over the believers... you say believers shoot high, when they stop trying to soar higher and stay at a certain level, never exploring what is above their preferred altitude. The idea-ers fly further than the sky, into outer space, into different galaxies and dimensions, to unlimited heights... for our imaginations are not inhibited by preordained ideas that are grounded in certainty, rather we are continuously being lifted to astounding new heights fueled by mystery.


...uh, divine mind and ideas go hand in hand eh? *scratches head*


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 30, 2012)

Great to hear your answer, urbangroop... Watch out though, itz a snake's den in here...


urbangroop said:


> ANother believer here!


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 30, 2012)

Thanks for the post, Smokey... Itz nice to not feel so alone in here... We have a whole lotta un-believers on this one taunting us and mocking us for our beliefs in Jesus... Itz pretty sad that I asked if there were any Christians on RIU, and I have only seen about ten out of a hundred + people, mabye, on here that actually are... The rest have just questioned our faith, and bashed our God, and apparently there must be something to this whole "God-thing", because if they really believed He didn't exist, I really doubt they'd have so much to say in responce to the things myself and others have said...


SmokeyMcSmokerton said:


> I'm Christian.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 30, 2012)

U get 0 respect from me Chief Walkin' Bunny... Why dont u try to prove to me that there is no God, big boy? That'd be funny to read thru... I'm the one Christian on here that won't back down from any of u heathens... I don't care what the cost is... I'm ready to die, are you?


Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> These poor christians are still getting picked on? lol Yes, I agree that what they believe in is ridiculous but all the main religions do have slivers of truth and divinity. They get a little respect from me because they acknowledge that theres more to life than what we can experience with our physical senses *cough cough monkey need to see cough cough*. This thread shows that spiritualists arent free to discuss anything without facing reticule from those die-hard atheists. Its funny how they claim that religion separates us (which it does but less so now than in the past) yet here they are in the spiritual forum causing arguments and separation lol Its almost like they are compelled to prove that there is no God... Kinda sounds like religious people being compelled to spread their religion... Im surprised these guys arent knocking on doors asking "Do you want to accept science, reasoning, skeptical thinking and utter lack of imagination as your new morals to live by? The Church of the Almighty Nothing is calling out to you! See all the things that are NOT in store for you when you die! Learn how to laugh without showing any facial expression! At the end of the year we plan to have a parade and march like Nazi's to the Vatican while chanting SCIENCE IS GOD in a monotone manner. Please take this pamphlet on how to re-program your brain so you can be a boring, calculating robot of rationality like we are, we're only being honest with ourselves is all!" ... xD I crack myself up.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 30, 2012)

Shut the fuck up... Howz that for sum wisdom?


jessy koons said:


> I don't believe a wise man would say 'chiggety' or even 'wreggety'.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 30, 2012)

You're about a stupid sumbitch, aren't you?


Doer said:


> Well, there you have it. Total conDAMMnation for a person you don't even know. I know nothing of your cult because I don't beleve in the cult. If I believe in the cult then I have fear of your damnation. And then the implied threat of damnation at the end. In the middle is the butt sandwich. We don't really want to damn you, buttttttttt....
> 
> BTW, "he gave his son to be slain" is not a fact and was not postulated by Jesus. More Cult logic.
> 
> I fear no evil, as I am quite comfortable with my growing Knowledge of Self.


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## GanjaGod420000 (Apr 30, 2012)

Itz not us that will damn you if u die in sin... Hello! I've only said that like ten times on this ridiculous thread... Do you only read certain words, or do u just pick out the ones u think u can sound smart responding to? BTW, it is fact... I think u r in for a big ol' surprise...


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## jessy koons (Apr 30, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Shut the fuck up... Howz that for sum wisdom?


 That is a really pathetic response. 

You stated in a recent post that many people are bashing god. I don't think that I've read a post on here that bashes god, any bashing is aimed at people like yourself who can't get beyond some sentiment like ' God exists because I believe in him so fuck you guys'. Don't be so defensive GanjaGilligan and please use the spellchecker so you don't look like a hillbilly.

If you want to meet and greet with fellow christians why do it on a cannabis website?


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## jessy koons (Apr 30, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> U get 0 respect from me Chief Walkin' Bunny... Why dont u try to prove to me that there is no God, big boy? That'd be funny to read thru... I'm the one Christian on here that won't back down from any of u heathens... I don't care what the cost is... I'm ready to die, are you?


 I remember you from the very first post on this thread. You said you were very tolerant of other peoples beliefs and then went on to completely contradict yourself by insulting people that you don't even know based on some imagined slight. Yea that was you. You claim to be a minister in some church or other. Now I regret engaging with you, you dumbshit moron.


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## Dislexicmidget2021 (Apr 30, 2012)

He obviously is a "militant believer",there can be no conversation to console his God complex into a constructive debate in which he might make a senseable point.Hes to angry and pissy all the time it seems.


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## Doer (Apr 30, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Thanks for the post, Smokey... Itz nice to not feel so alone in here... We have a whole lotta un-believers on this one taunting us and mocking us for our beliefs in Jesus... Itz pretty sad that I asked if there were any Christians on RIU, and I have only seen about ten out of a hundred + people, mabye, on here that actually are... The rest have just questioned our faith, and bashed our God, and apparently there must be something to this whole "God-thing", because if they really believed He didn't exist, I really doubt they'd have so much to say in responce to the things myself and others have said...


This brings up another point. Perhaps we are trying to help, by questioning your faith. Idolatry and Book worshiping bashes God. To propose no free will to question faith and using violence of thought and word, is God bashing. What you see here, seems to me, is blind faith bashing. And I have always wondered about this "our God" business. You don't posses it, so If you think there are multiple Gods...and you can jealously and viciously defend your version, while damning all other who disagree, well, to me, that misses the point of your own religion entirely. And it seems like you are having ,your version of "our God", before the one true God,. I believe that also is prohibited in your religion.

Religious darkness of thought is entirely, no more, no less, exactly what we are bashing.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Apr 30, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> U get 0 respect from me Chief Walkin' Bunny... Why dont u try to prove to me that there is no God, big boy? That'd be funny to read thru... I'm the one Christian on here that won't back down from any of u heathens... I don't care what the cost is... I'm ready to die, are you?


Did you even read my full paragraph? Im trying to help you out my friend, where did you get the idea that I thought there was no God?


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Apr 30, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> It very well could be cheif, that your friend may have anticipated what you were thinking, or maybe he just said it to see what effect it would have on you... and it just so happened you were thinking something that retained some relevence to what he had just said.
> 
> But im not sure if that thought crossed your mind, because that is just as plausable as someone reading your mind... actually more plausable in my opinion.
> 
> Sometimes it seems as if my little brother can "read my mind" but this is merely the expectation and anticipation of a thought that i was going to have... and he guessed right.


Nahh Im quite sure hes able to read minds, we communicated with minds often (wish I was able to read his). A full hour past after that talk about Auras and we've been walking silently for 5 minutes, he didnt JUST say those things. Your explanation is that he just guessed that I was thinking about what he said, that he just so happend to correct a statement that I thought of? Im a master at masking my emotions, I looked completely chill when my mind was panicking that he was in my head, how could he possibly anticipate that I was having those shameful thoughts? That night my mind was racing when I was having conversations with him and whenever I had a hard time wording a question I would just look at him silently and then he would answer my specific question, one of my other friends witnessed this and was freaked out. Explanation for that??... And when I was still very uncomfortable around him (because I knew if he was included in my thought process, he would be able to read that thought) I stood behind him and thought "Hey buddy, hows it going? STFU! Get outta my head you asshole!" and then he turned around and laughed at me... You could also see his discomfort when I wanted him out of my head, because it was only me thinking about him that was keeping him in my head, he didnt want to be there. Explanation for that? I could go on and on about the amazing spiritual experiences I had with him, one more amazing than mind reading... Im sorry man, but not every single supernatural encounter reported can be explained with "a trick of the mind" you just got to accept that some people really experienced what they experienced, its silly to think that every single one of them were mistaken.


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## PrivateEye6 (Apr 30, 2012)

Religion sucks, so then religious people suck. Cmon man, you need a religion and a church and a strict belief system to connect with god? Enlightenment is your goal right? Well ill be happy to tell you religion is taking you the opposite way. Raise your awareness & strive for a higher conscious. Some feel that a religion is the only way to achieve such things, nope. Drop everything you think you know and connect with your inner voice, it will guide you, thats its job. We never needed religion, but THEY need it for US. Wise up


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Apr 30, 2012)

PrivateEye6 said:


> Religion sucks, so then religious people suck. Cmon man, you need a religion and a church and a strict belief system to connect with god? Enlightenment is your goal right? Well ill be happy to tell you religion is taking you the opposite way. Raise your awareness & strive for a higher conscious. Some feel that a religion is the only way to achieve such things, nope. Drop everything you think you know and connect with your inner voice, it will guide you, thats its job. We never needed religion, but THEY need it for US. Wise up


exactly!!!


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## ImAgIaNtInDaGrOwWoRlD (May 1, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> Shut the fuck up... Howz that for sum wisdom?


Im a born-again believer, and GanjaGod, I got to tell ya, Your definetly not following Jesus. "From the heart spring the issues of life." Your evil negativity within your heart gives you away as a false believer or atleast a very immature one at best. Repent and give your concernes over to the Lord and stop doing exactly what He told us NOT to do.


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## Heisenberg (May 1, 2012)




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## Doer (May 1, 2012)

"*Im a master at masking my emotions, I looked completely chill when my mind was panicking that he was in my head, how could he possibly anticipate that I was having those shameful thoughts? That night my mind was racing when I was having conversations with him and whenever I had a hard time wording a question I would just look at him silently and then he would answer my specific question."

*BTW< Great pic, Mr. H.

Well, sir, I believe you must acquaint yourself with the concept of micro-expessions. These flirt across our faces inside the blink rate, 1/15 of a second. There is no mind reader that can consistently withstand double blind testing. Just ask yourself could he read your mind if you had a cardboard box on your head and he said nothing? "Mind readers", study your face, your reactions to their questions. So, how do you know you are a master of your micro-expressions? It sounds like he has a knack of leading the conversation and when you are silent, he knows what subject you imagine.

To me this is part of NOW. And I doubt if he does it as a trick. He's probably a natural. But the rest of it, the "Angels and Deamons" stuff, tells me he is mired in the illusion of power.

Why do you think Champion poker players use hoodies and dark glasses when they play?* Micro-expressions can't be controlled unless seriously trained to be inscrutable.


*


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (May 1, 2012)

Doer said:


> "*Im a master at masking my emotions, I looked completely chill when my mind was panicking that he was in my head, how could he possibly anticipate that I was having those shameful thoughts? That night my mind was racing when I was having conversations with him and whenever I had a hard time wording a question I would just look at him silently and then he would answer my specific question."
> 
> *BTW< Great pic, Mr. H.
> 
> ...


We were walking the the first time when he read my mind, and I was walking behind him because there was a group of us, nice try though... And from me silently staring at him he can guess the specific question Im thinking about and answer it just by studying the very subtle movements on my face? WOW, the facial language you speak of must be more complex than you know if hes able to answer my specific question that I THOUGHT of. <-- Sarcasm... once again... nice try.


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## Doer (May 1, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> We were walking the the first time when he read my mind, and I was walking behind him because there was a group of us, nice try though... And from me silently staring at him he can guess the specific question Im thinking about and answer it just by studying the very subtle movements on my face? WOW, the facial language you speak of must be more complex than you know if hes able to answer my specific question that I THOUGHT of. <-- Sarcasm... once again... nice try.


You are taking offense. You think he read your mind, but you seem to doubt mirco-expressions and don't play professional poker. He made you believe your mind was read so what is the difference? But, he also conveyed he possess supernatural powers. And thus influenced you. It's a good story. Not proof not facts, not double blind. I have similar stories. The mind is a strange thing and I have to offer another alternative. I believe there is group empathy and I believe the mind is perfectly capable of ignoring cause and effect. The Mind, to me, is a quantum entangled intelligence with access to all dimensions, not subject to artificial durations we call time. In short, how can you know you were actually thinking that question or did you, as I have, just think it was before but it was actually after? A strange form of deja vu. I realized this is what my mother was doing, for example. She also was a natural.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (May 1, 2012)

Doer said:


> You are taking offense. You think he read your mind, but you seem to doubt mirco-expressions and don't play professional poker. He made you believe your mind was read so what is the difference? But, he also conveyed he possess supernatural powers. And thus influenced you. It's a good story. Not proof not facts, not double blind. I have similar stories. The mind is a strange thing and I have to offer another alternative. I believe there is group empathy and I believe the mind is perfectly capable of ignoring cause and effect. The Mind, to me, is a quantum entangled intelligence with access to all dimensions, not subject to artificial durations we call time. In short, how can you know you were actually thinking that question or did you, as I have, just think it was before but it was actually after? A strange form of deja vu. I realized this is what my mother was doing, for example. She also was a natural.


I dont play professional poker but I do love playing poker, never played in a while but the last 20 person house tournament I won both rounds. Micro expressions just cant answer these things, theres just no other way you can rationalize this other than mind reading. You cant say that I thought he had mystical powers because before he read my mind I too thought he was crazy. Everytime someone includes him in their thought process that thought gets sent to him, he has no control over that. I hate that whenever hes in my thought process he reads that thought, but I just stopped caring after a while because its foolish to stress about it. One time when I was still very uncomfortable around him (because I felt like I had no privacy) I stood behind him and thought "Hey buddy, hows it going?..STFU! get out of my head you asshole!" and he turned around and laughed at me and I laughed too... I've experienced a couple other things with him that are more amazing than mind reading but I'll spare you of those stories because Im not convincing anyone.


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## Doer (May 1, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I dont play professional poker but I do love playing poker, never played in a while but the last 20 person house tournament I won both rounds. Micro expressions just cant answer these things, theres just no other way you can rationalize this other than mind reading. You cant say that I thought he had mystical powers because before he read my mind I too thought he was crazy. Everytime someone includes him in their thought process that thought gets sent to him, he has no control over that. I hate that whenever hes in my thought process he reads that thought, but I just stopped caring after a while because its foolish to stress about it. One time when I was still very uncomfortable around him (because I felt like I had no privacy) I stood behind him and thought "Hey buddy, hows it going?..STFU! get out of my head you asshole!" and he turned around and laughed at me and I laughed too... I've experienced a couple other things with him that are more amazing than mind reading but I'll spare you of those stories because Im not convincing anyone.


Oh, no. Quite the opposite. I'm not trying to un-convince and I'm sure you really don't care if you convince me. And we discuss. Duuuddde, if you got someone that has convinced you, that works for me. I believe in the Super-Consciousness and quantum entangled group think. I know that the shamanic self, the kukui in Hawaiian Shaman tradition is extremely powerful. So, real for you and some shit indeed.

Would he be willing to be studied? <sigh> Surely not, right? So, just saying...the world of the tonal and nawhal, existence and not quite exactly, is a fascinating subject. Who is to say what real? I extend apology. I seemed to have questioned your truth telling.


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## RawBudzski (May 1, 2012)

Shh Don't Wake the Nawhal![video=youtube;nXv28fd46wM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXv28fd46wM[/video]


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (May 1, 2012)

Doer said:


> Oh, no. Quite the opposite. I'm not trying to un-convince and I'm sure you really don't care if you convince me. And we discuss. Duuuddde, if you got someone that has convinced you, that works for me. I believe in the Super-Consciousness and quantum entangled group think. I know that the shamanic self, the kukui in Hawaiian Shaman tradition is extremely powerful. So, real for you and some shit indeed.
> 
> Would he be willing to be studied? <sigh> Surely not, right? So, just saying...the world of the tonal and nawhal, existence and not quite exactly, is a fascinating subject. Who is to say what real? I extend apology. I seemed to have questioned your truth telling.


What do you mean am I willing to be studied? its not me that has special abilities... And Im interested in that shaman stuff too but I know little about it. I just heard of the drink called ayuaska (spelt it wrong) thats active ingredient is DMT. I want to go to Brazil one day and have a shaman take me on a spiritual journey with ayuaska, I heard some profound stories from the people that took part in those rituals.


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## Doer (May 1, 2012)

I said he, would he be willing. Would you be willing to have that green powder blown up your nose?  One of my fav movies is Emerald Forest about a kid lost in the Amazon and adopted by the Invisible People. Ever see that?


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (May 1, 2012)

Doer said:


> I said he, would he be willing. Would you be willing to have that green powder blown up your nose?  One of my fav movies is Emerald Forest about a kid lost in the Amazon and adopted by the Invisible People. Ever see that?


No hes not willing to be studied, I tried my best to get him to make this knowledge public, he just doesnt want the attention I guess. Hes content with sharing his knowledge with a select few people, theres also someone he refers to as his master, very different people. I even told him of this amazing Randi guy who would give someone a million dollars if they proved something supernatural to him, he wasnt interested. He said if he was famous Christians would make him out to be the anti-christ and he would support the role because he really doesnt like christians lol but he'd rather not face death threats from angry bible thumpers... I never heard of that movie, sounds interesting though, might look it up tonight.


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## Doer (May 1, 2012)

It's worth a look. It's the forest primeval meets Powers Booth as the Dad who goes out to find his child.. Very dark and dangerous in spots. Cool shaman woo wow throughout.


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## Sean Tom (May 2, 2012)

NnthStTrls said:


> Fairly certain that if you're a Christian, AND you're on RIU, you're going to hell. . . . . . if you believe in Christianity. .... . . interesting. I've got no hate for you though. Just don't push it on me. Keep it green. Keep it happy.


if you dont want it pushed on you, Christianity that is, then you dont need to be pushing Hell on Christians. It is not your place to judge for GOD is the judge of all Men and things.


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## Sean Tom (May 2, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> All I see is a bunch of God-bashing, monkey-metamorphisis, space alien, crazy-ass beliefs, on here, and being a minister of the Universal Life Church, I'm almost tempted to roll up shop and go elsewhere... Just wondering... Little bit of a check here.... I am tolerant of anyones beliefs, but there is a great in-tolerance of anything Christian I ever say when people talk about their far-fetched, man-made, dreamed up concoctions of science and sci-fi, and whatever... Whatever happenned to just believing that Christ died for our sins, and that God created everything, including cannabis, which is clearly pointed out, and spoken HIGHLY of many times in The Bible? Anyone? Seriously, anyone?


Hello my friend, GOD all the way. and i thank him for you. MGBU(May God Bless You)


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## RawBudzski (May 2, 2012)

Sean Tom said:


> if you dont want it pushed on you, Christianity that is, then you dont need to be pushing Hell on Christians. It is not your place to judge for GOD is the judge of all Men and things.


Actually I am sure it's more of a panel of Judges like on American Idol, Jesus Allah Buddha Ganish, though I am sure Santa is who you want to impress most seeing as he's the only one keeping track if you've been naughty or nice.


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## Doer (May 2, 2012)

RawBudzski said:


> Actually I am sure it's more of a panel of Judges like on American Idol, Jesus Allah Buddha Ganish, though I am sure Santa is who you want to impress most seeing as he's the only one keeping track if you've been naughty or nice.


On South Park it's those 4 and they call it the Super Best Friends Club.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (May 2, 2012)

God (or w.e) will only judge you if you worship him/her/them/it, God will think your weak and pathetic if you worship him.


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## RawBudzski (May 2, 2012)

[video=youtube;SaicegAwPis]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaicegAwPis[/video]


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## Sean Tom (May 2, 2012)

wow i officially regret posting in this thread. i cant stand ignorant stupid acting people. i wish you all the best in your endeavors. WOWWWWWWWWWWWWW


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## Doer (May 2, 2012)

Well if you can't stand it how can you be part of the Super Best Friends?


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (May 2, 2012)

RawBudzski said:


> [video=youtube;SaicegAwPis]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaicegAwPis[/video]


Hahaha I cant believe I never seen this episode


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## FilthyFletch (May 2, 2012)

All religion is the evil or the world. Wars have been fought since time began over gods...People rape in the name of religion, kill and sacrifice in the name of religion, priest molest children and then hide behind the church.Cults blow people up for religion. Take away religion, churches, mosques and wars subside, child don't get raped, hate doesn't grow.....Abolish religion and earth will prosper.


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## Doer (May 2, 2012)

FilthyFletch said:


> All religion is the evil or the world. Wars have been fought since time began over gods...People rape in the name of religion, kill and sacrifice in the name of religion, priest molest children and then hide behind the church.Cults blow people up for religion. Take away religion, churches, mosques and wars subside, child don't get raped, hate doesn't grow.....Abolish religion and earth will prosper.


There is a list of good that balances based on the needs of the community as a whole. All those evil deeds also are the results of war. I can't really grasp the idea that religion causes war. It seems there is always power and the struggle for power. Power is a necessity for order, and is for gathering and preserving resources, supplies and needs of the community, tribe, etc. It's the idea that something has to be in charge. I'll tell you, as a student of this, many different forms this has taken. It's been a giant organic experiment with a lot of collateral damage I'm afraid. A lot of confusion and horror and everything that could go wrong, include atomic explosions has happened, not likely to stop. 

Ritual and sense of community is all there was to get us here. And here we are. So, I don't think really a broad brush blame is order. Wars cause religions is another way to see it. Especially the western religions.


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## eye exaggerate (May 3, 2012)

FilthyFletch said:


> All religion is the evil or the world. Wars have been fought since time began over gods...People rape in the name of religion, kill and sacrifice in the name of religion, priest molest children and then hide behind the church.Cults blow people up for religion. Take away religion, churches, mosques and wars subside, child don't get raped, hate doesn't grow.....Abolish religion and earth will prosper.



(enter your avatar here)


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## ImAgIaNtInDaGrOwWoRlD (May 3, 2012)

Your absolutely right on FilthyFletch. Religon was bashed even by the good Lord Himself. Before Jesus ascended into Heaven after the resurection when He went up to cleanse the mercy seat with His own blood in the Temple that is in heaven, He told His disciples that the temple here in this world in Jerusalem would be destroyed and not 1 stone would lay on another.

He also made 3 cords into a whip and drove out the money changers from the temple in Jerusalem and said they turned Gods house into a den of robbers because they rigged the scales to benafit them and rob the outsiders when they exchanged the money to Roman coin.

Its not God who has made mistakes or abandoned us. Its man. Us. We are the ones who sin and are under the law of sin and death. So.... the results speak for themselves. Look around and its there. Right outside our own eyes. Sin and death. All creation is subject to frustration. This is since the fall of man, when we disobeyed God and obeyed Satan. We handed control and authority of the Earth, that God gave us, over to Satan. Now he (Satan) frustrates everything around us so nothing makes sense anymore. The only thing that can beat this is pure, sacraficial love. This is the truth of God in Christ. That all who believe on the son, repent of sin, and take up there cross and follow Him, will be saved from the coming wrath of the Father, when He destroys the crust of the Earth with unquenchable fire. Follow Him where and in what? He's not here anymore you say? Follow Him in your heart. Follow Him in the way He loved us and gave His life for us. When we didnt deserve it. We love Him because He first loved us. Not the other way around.
Follow Him by defeating evil with good.

Anyone who sins is a slave to sin. Jesus came to set us free through the truth. That it will take complete trust and faith after being born-again and recieving power from on high to walk as He walked. Sinless and in pure love and truth. As a servent He lived and healed the sick, raised the dead, taught the people truths about life and the soon to come Kingdom of Heaven.


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## snew (May 3, 2012)

You folks must have got lost along the way. This site is for people who smoke marijuana not crank. You are the meanest pot smokers I ran into. Give it break its just mean spirited.


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## BA142 (May 3, 2012)

snew said:


> You folks must have got lost along the way. This site is for people who smoke marijuana not crank. You are the meanest pot smokers I ran into. Give it break its just mean spirited.


Christianity is mean spirited as well....detrimental to society. Have you read the Bible?


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## Doer (May 3, 2012)

snew said:


> You folks must have got lost along the way. This site is for people who smoke marijuana not crank. You are the meanest pot smokers I ran into. Give it break its just mean spirited.


Not sure what you are getting at with the mean spirited comment about folks' choices. And to make that as an assumptive choice. Well, how mean can you get? So, what other meanness is there on top of yours? If I read this the way I think you mean it, you are against expression and freedom of choice?


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## ginjawarrior (May 3, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Im a master at masking my emotions,


im having alot of trouble believing that line considering the way you compose yourself on here


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## tyler.durden (May 3, 2012)

ginjawarrior said:


> im having alot of trouble believing that line considering the way you compose yourself on here



Puma Punku, GW, Puma Punku. Thought I'd save the Chief the mental effort of a response...


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## ginjawarrior (May 3, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Puma Punku, GW, Puma Punku. Thought I'd save the Chief the mental effort of a response...


umma gumma 
[youtube]5XhjviN1yMA[/youtube]


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (May 3, 2012)

ginjawarrior said:


> im having alot of trouble believing that line considering the way you compose yourself on here


I love it when the first member of my fan club has something to say =)


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## skunkd0c (May 3, 2012)

Sean Tom said:


> if you dont want it pushed on you, Christianity that is, then you dont need to be pushing Hell on Christians. It is not your place to judge for GOD is the judge of all Men and things.


christians are part of one of the most putrid and vile subordinate cults 
i can picture that glazed over dead look in the eyes combined with the false psychotic grin , 
the lights are on but no one is home for sure lol 

i bring you wonderful news of everlasting life !!!


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## cannofbliss (May 3, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Puma Punku, GW, Puma Punku. Thought I'd save the Chief the mental effort of a response...





ginjawarrior said:


> umma gumma
> [youtube]5XhjviN1yMA[/youtube]




oogahh bee dooga dee booba scooba... derp derp derpa etc... wacca wacca wacca... lol

yeah... perhaps thats more along the lines of comprehension that they seem to live by...

we must be speaking the wrong language to the religious... the language of reason...


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## skunkd0c (May 3, 2012)

cannofbliss said:


> oogahh bee dooga dee booba scooba... lol
> 
> yeah... perhaps we are speaking the wrong language to the religious...


speaking in tongues .. nice move!
i do pity the subordinate creatures that call themselves christians 
to have such a desire or compulsion to be obedient at the root of their belief system 
this lack of individual courage and lack of freedom of thought demotes the christian down a few positions on the food chain imo


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## cannofbliss (May 3, 2012)

no... not tongues... just primitive human speech... i.e. caveman, both early early caveman... and then thousands of years later... desert caveman...

the wacca wacca wacca was just random 

i guess this thread has pretty much run its course, cause im pretty sure the OP has got his kicks from all of his threads' intentions... 

in which the OP's thoughts were pretty much like this... "hmmm... i think ill create a thread where ill ask a question with the intent to find stupid reasons to make the "excitement of incitement" happen... 

blah...blah...blah... im bored of attempting to reason with all of this crap...


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## eye exaggerate (May 4, 2012)

cannofbliss said:


> the wacca wacca wacca was just random


[video=youtube;i_OjztdQ8iw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_OjztdQ8iw&amp;feature=related[/video]


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## cannofbliss (May 4, 2012)

lol^^^ eye...

damn that person is kick ass at pacman... id be done for at the 30 second mark... LOL


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## Squizz (May 5, 2012)

Burnt-out Roman Catholic checking in. HAHA.


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## eye exaggerate (May 5, 2012)

Squizz said:


> Burnt-out Roman Catholic checking in. HAHA.


...awesome - the ol' switcheroo


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## meechz 024 (May 6, 2012)

church goers are the worst growers.


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## spandy (May 6, 2012)

Adults calling eachother names because they dont agree with what each other believes in...wow. Some of you dudes need to get a life outside of being upset that someone believes in something you dont. 

I dont care what non believers think, I don't see why they care what I think. Eh, guess thats their burden to carry, fuck em.


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## Zaehet Strife (May 8, 2012)

Stay thirsty for knowledge my friends.


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## Padawanbater2 (May 8, 2012)

spandy said:


> Adults calling eachother names because they dont agree with what each other believes in...wow. Some of you dudes need to get a life outside of being upset that someone believes in something you dont.
> 
> I dont care what non believers think, I don't see why they care what I think. Eh, guess thats their burden to carry, fuck em.


1. If there weren't people calling themselves _________ there'd be no reason for non believers to call themselves non_________. 

2. Burden of proof is on believers. Atheism is a negative stance to a question, believers are the ones making the positive claim.

Other than that, I agree with everything you said.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (May 8, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> 1. If there weren't people calling themselves _________ there'd be no reason for non believers to call themselves non_________.
> 
> 2. Burden of proof is on believers. Atheism is a negative stance to a question, believers are the ones making the positive claim.
> 
> Other than that, I agree with everything you said.


As a Christian I don't require the burden of proof if I am not trying to convert you or push my views on you.
I believe in God.
If you don't, then that's your prerogative - honestly, it hurts my heart, but I promise not to push you towards holy water or anything else.
I respect you as a person & will treat you with dignity, but anyone whom gets offended by my personal belief's might want to consider a bit of introspection into their own views.

Here's a serious question:
Did/does your mother love you?


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## Padawanbater2 (May 8, 2012)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> As a Christian I don't require the burden of proof if I am not trying to convert you or push my views on you.
> I believe in God.
> If you don't, then that's your prerogative - honestly, it hurts my heart, but I promise not to push you towards holy water or anything else.
> I respect you as a person & will treat you with dignity, but anyone whom gets offended by my personal belief's might want to consider a bit of introspection into their own views.
> ...


Is religious belief not a positive claim? It sounds like we're on the same page if religion is something kept personal and private.

My mother wholeheartedly loves me, I'm the favorite


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## rmx (May 8, 2012)

Buddhism is the only religion I trust. The other 500 just seem absolutely batshit insane to me. The stuff the Egyptians, Aztecs and Incans used to believe was pretty damn cool though. Gods with Jackal heads. the ferryman of the dead with a ram's head. Sign me up.

http://www.godchecker.com/

About 10,000 Gods to choose from. Take your pic. I'll stick with Gaia.


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## Padawanbater2 (May 8, 2012)

I don't trust anything that was made up by man to control people.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (May 9, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> My mother wholeheartedly loves me, I'm the favorite


Prove it scientifically.


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## Padawanbater2 (May 9, 2012)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> Prove it scientifically.


How would you propose I do that? 

Define 'love', first.


I know what you're getting at. "if you can't prove love, and you believe in it, why not God?"

The answer is, a whole host of tangible reasons.


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## mindphuk (May 9, 2012)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> Prove it scientifically.


Prove what scientifically? Love is a concept developed by humans. Are you claiming conceptual ideas can be scientifically tested? We can test how the human body and brain react to what we call love. You might as well ask someone to test a picture for it's 'artfulness.' 

Is god merely an ambiguous, subjective concept to you?


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (May 9, 2012)

Prove it scientifically xD


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (May 9, 2012)

scientific proof of love... almost forgot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp-r_f8-qz8


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## BA142 (May 9, 2012)

Love is a chemical reaction in the brain. It has absolutely nothing to do with Religion/Christianity.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (May 9, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> How would you propose I do that?
> Define 'love', first.
> I know what you're getting at. "if you can't prove love, and you believe in it, why not God?"
> The answer is, a whole host of tangible reasons.


Pad, Your *belief* that your mother loves you is the direction I was trying to nudge you in.
It was a Socratic question meant to illustrate that perhaps we all have perceptions and beliefs that don't require scientific proof for them to be true in our own lives.
I too know that my mother loved me, but proving it to be fact would be somewhat tricky.

At any rate, peace my friend.


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## 420IAMthatIAM (May 9, 2012)

GanjaGod420000 said:


> All I see is a bunch of God-bashing, monkey-metamorphisis, space alien, crazy-ass beliefs, on here, and being a minister of the Universal Life Church, I'm almost tempted to roll up shop and go elsewhere... Just wondering... Little bit of a check here.... I am tolerant of anyones beliefs, but there is a great in-tolerance of anything Christian I ever say when people talk about their far-fetched, man-made, dreamed up concoctions of science and sci-fi, and whatever... Whatever happenned to just believing that Christ died for our sins, and that God created everything, including cannabis, which is clearly pointed out, and spoken HIGHLY of many times in The Bible? Anyone? Seriously, anyone?


all religions are dysfunctional,and have been for thousand of years. take christainty for example there is no where in old testament thats speaks of some one name jesus coming to save the world...also something else thats kinda of strange is the lie that satan said to eve, which was ..Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 


Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? this person called jesus said this one


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## mindphuk (May 9, 2012)

420IAMthatIAM said:


> all religions are dysfunctional,and have been for thousand of years. take christainty for example there is no where in old testament thats speaks of some one name jesus coming to save the world...also something else thats kinda of strange is the lie that satan said to eve, which was ..Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
> Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
> 
> 
> Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? this person called jesus said this one



Only Xians claim the serpent was hasatan. AFAIK, nothing in Jewish literature agrees with that. However, the Jewish view of hasatan is very different than that of popular culture, mostly inspired by the Xian view.


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## Doer (May 10, 2012)

BA142 said:


> Love is a chemical reaction in the brain. It has absolutely nothing to do with Religion/Christianity.


But, there is something in the brain that can experience what seems to me to be unvarnished Joy. Unvarnished in that it exists outside causality somehow. It's not "I feel joy, because.." of some event in the "objective." But rather it seems to nautrally be present when I can let the mind cloud drift off and talk on. But, it's no longer is talking to me and I'm not listening. So, just saying, without woo, I wish that word, Joy, was not taken by religion.

I have some opinions about the practices that start religions, Those that allow the experience of feelings that are normally hidden from Mr. Mind, but a religion is all talk and no real practice. These are just my opinions.


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## dank smoker420 (May 10, 2012)

reliegion is belief of something with no scientific evidence. love is a feeling you have for someone. 

i have always wondered why christians do not eccept the evidence of evolution. and if god creates everything why would he create bad things. like terrorists and people who have the will power to create killing machines or people who lie to the whole united states to take them to war.


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## st0wandgrow (May 10, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Of course there are christians on RIU, some of my favs are Eye Exaggerate, Hep, Oly and another new guy with a monkey as an avatar who I think is also christian. They are all intelligent and participate in good debates. We have no problem with their faith, because they do not present it as fact, merely their belief. Any claims posted as reality that cannot stand up to simple logic and scrutiny, or has no empirical evidence, does get bashed here and that's a beautiful thing. It indicates that we are making progress as a species. Belief without evidence is fine, but it won't be taken seriously in this sub-forum...



HEY! If you're referring to this monkey, I'm a card carrying atheist!

I feel insulted, Tyler!


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## polyarcturus (May 10, 2012)

what if our ancestors where ape people and needed a way to explain everything without their brain bursting from within? god damn if i lived in wilderness with a group of crazy raw meat eating people i would generate crazy ways to explain things too. but now we have tools books measurement ect. i can see god show god prove god. god is energy energy is in everything. energy can not be lost or gained. it exist everywhere in the known universe in some form. god is energy in is most basic form, it is not sentient and there is no afterlife, beside im pretty happy knowing my energy will just go back into the earth when i die.


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## st0wandgrow (May 10, 2012)

UncleBuck said:


> don't take this as me being mean to christians, take this as a challenge to your beliefs, as beliefs unchallenged are weak beliefs.
> 
> so, a talking snake gives a magic apple to a rib woman, a floating ether impregnates a human female, who then gives birth to a zombie that can defy physics, and this seems like not only an appealing story to believe in, but infallible as it is the word of god?
> 
> wow, just wow.



LMAO! Classic!


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## Doer (May 10, 2012)

dank smoker420 said:


> reliegion is belief of something with no scientific evidence. love is a feeling you have for someone.
> 
> i have always wondered why christians do not eccept the evidence of evolution. and if god creates everything why would he create bad things. like terrorists and people who have the will power to create killing machines or people who lie to the whole united states to take them to war.


Maybe God is not so candy coated. Maybe we assume God cares. Maybe this is all a illusionary construct and only men are good and evil. Religion does not define God.


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## Zaehet Strife (May 10, 2012)

I always thought it was a cool idea that the war between god and the devil has been over for tens of thousands of years... but the thing is, that the devil actually won, and we are merely playing part in this illusory existence merely for his pleasure at watching us suffer and kill eachother.

If you think about it, it makes more sense that the devil won instead of god, i mean take a good look around you. If god won, i think things would probably be very different.


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## Garcia Vega (May 10, 2012)

God believer, Christ saved, and Marijuana smoker...

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. (_Genesis 1:29, KJV_)


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## Doer (May 11, 2012)

Garcia Vega said:


> God believer, Christ saved, and Marijuana smoker...
> 
> And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. (_Genesis 1:29, KJV_)


God has never said anything to anybody. I, sometimes, wish IT would. Most times, not.


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## Wednesday (May 11, 2012)

I believe in God, Jesus, the Bible, etc. I'm afraid I don't identify as a "Christian" only because I know my behavior doesn't always represent the Christian community very well so I don't think I necessarily deserve the title. But i'm a believer if that makes sense. I try to behave best I can.


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## tyler.durden (May 11, 2012)

st0wandgrow said:


> HEY! If you're referring to this monkey, I'm a card carrying atheist!
> 
> I feel insulted, Tyler!


Wrong Monkey, I think my monkey's name was mudminer. All you monkeys look alike to me


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## TogTokes (May 11, 2012)

i think if santa is fake, god has to be as well.. magic just doesn't happen.


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## eye exaggerate (May 11, 2012)

Wednesday said:


> I believe in God, Jesus, the Bible, etc. I'm afraid I don't identify as a "Christian" only because I know my behavior doesn't always represent the Christian community very well so I don't think I necessarily deserve the title. But i'm a believer if that makes sense. I try to behave best I can.


...Christian communities do not represent Christian community. Think like the sun - Feel like the earth <---there's community


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## eye exaggerate (May 11, 2012)

TogTokes said:


> i think if santa is fake, god has to be as well.. magic just doesn't happen.


...what is magic?


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## Doer (May 11, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...what is magic?


Paraphrasing Aurthur C. Clarke, it's sufficiently advanced technology. We really have to give Self more credit. We are sitting here in the most advanced technology, the human body. It is tech beyond understanding or belief. New discoveries are made constantly, the epi-genome, for example., It is still as mysterious as it ever was. And we sit, not as meat, but consciousness riding meat. If we strip out all belief, we have sufficiently advanced technology called consciousness. And if we strip out all belief many of us still have a consciousness of more to it than the 5 senses tell us.

So, religions attempt to describe but they don't have a patent. My experiences can be described, carefully, as specifically not woo. TogTokes seems to possess the usual confusion of rejecting the wrong thing. Reject religion and dogma to the extent that it explains anything? I do.

Here is the ancient mystery. And it's a good contemplation technique. Why do we breath that next breath? What is that urge to live? If we sit calmly and pay attention, there is this little something. There is, quiet, silent revelation as to what my Life and Self is. Beyond description. Pure experience. Worth noting, it seems like magic.


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