# fatman's Medium Pressure Large Tube Aero Tutorial



## fatman7574 (May 26, 2010)

*Large Tube/Deep Chamber Medium Pressure Aero* 

*Why Large Tube or Deep Chamber?* 
Simply out, and a major reason an aero systems is a highly effective growing method is that the roots suspended in air assure ease at supplying nutrient water saturated with dissolved oxygen DO. 
So why large tubes or deep chambers rather than just using the commonly used small diameter PVC pipes and hollow PVC fence posts. With the small tubes/pipes roots within a few weeks must stack up in a thick layer in the bottom of the tubes. Water does not readily penetrate through these masses quickly. The water that reach the inside of these masses seldom contains adequate DO required by the roots. At best the small amount of suspended roots is free air get adequate DO and about the top half inch of the root masses. The roots stacked up under this uppermost layer get ever smaller amounts of DO as the water slowly seeps through the water logged roots. Does intermittent spraying lead to improvements in the amount of DO supplied to the roots laying stacked up in layers. No it just makes the matter worse.
Very large tubes(tall tubes) and deep chambers alleviate this problem as all or nearly all roots are suspended in air throughout the full grow. 

*Why Medium Pressure Aero*
Aero sprayers are made for pressures of 15 to 30 PSI. http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation_info.php?cPath=39&products_id=395
Aero misters are made for pressures of 35 to 85 psi. http://www.dripirrigation.com/index.php?cPath=43&sort=2a&page=3
Mj plants roots can most easily take up water droplets of a size between 30 and 80 microns. This is the size delivered by misters supplied with medium to high pressure nutrient solutions.
Medium pressures are cheaper and easier to supply. They do not require pressure regulators or pressure/accumulator tanks. They do not require pressure switches or pressure relief valves. All these are required by a high pressure mister system.
The pump needed for a medium pressure aero system is regularly available cheaply on eBay as they are widely used which is not the case with the Sureflo pumps most commonly used for high pressure aero systems.
The pump used for medium pressure runs 24/7 so it does not wear out prematurely do to constant on and off cycling.
Low pressure pumps actually provide water streams most commonly as the water pressure delivered by most aquarium and fountain pumps is only about 2 to 3 psi. The plants roots do not uptake this water easily. This is method called over saturation. It is equivalent to a flooding method where there is no media. I is not an efficient method of watering. As can be noted the manufacturers state the minimum pressures required for proper use is 15 psi, not 2 to 3 psi.
This information is from the patent application of the owners of the atomix aero system:
*[0051]*Droplet micron size for effective aeroponics should be between 30 and 80 micron and not below 5 micron. The present growing method is the first growing method to use this range of microns. 

*[0052]*Optimum aeroponic root growth requires a specific concentration of atomized liquid that is suspended inside the grow chamber. If the atmosphere provided by the present apparatus has too high a concentration of the atomized liquid mixture, it may cause saturation of the roots and may restrict the oxygen and carbon dioxide surrounding the root structure, because too much water soaks the roots and blocks their supply of air. In one embodiment of the instant invention, the apparatus provides to the exposed root structure inside the container an atmosphere that has a concentration of the atomized liquid mixture in the atmosphere in a range of between 0.0004% (4.times.10.sup.-4%) and 0.000000027% (27.times.10.sup.-9%) by volume of the atmosphere surrounding the horticulture, depending on the plant species. A concentration above 0.0009% (9.times.10.sup.-4%) by volume of liquid will result in the saturation of the roots and restriction of oxygen and carbon dioxide. 


*Why Drain To Waste Nutrients*
Drain to waste is the safest and most easily managed nutrient system for growing pot with a sprayed nutrient delivery system. With drain to waste the nutrient system always is supplying a balanced nutrient that never changes and that always has a constant pH so the nutrients are always available. The amount actually drained to waste is small as little is sprayed. As the [0052} paragraph explains, little is needed. With recirculating reservoirs the nutrients levels and ratios change from the minute their use is started. The pH changes constantly, the EC changes constantly. The maintenance times needed for EC and pH measurements and adjustments are absurd and always insufficient.
You might want to scream the costs of drain to waste is too high. That is not the case. Consider that the vast majority of commercial green house vegetable growers growing hydroponically now use drain to waste systems, Their grow products sell for bout 25 cents to a dollar per pound versus having a value of over $3000 per pound.

*How To Make The Large Tube Assembly*
You will need:
A small drill and drill bit. 
A manual pop rivet gun. 
About 10 to 12 pop rivets per tube. 
A measuring tape or ruler.
A marking pen
A drill and a hole saw.
A sheet of ½&#8221; or thicker plywood.
A saw to cut the plywood.
Some sheet rock screws to assemble the.ply wood.
To make tubes 6 inches wide and 19.5 inches tall, first go to Home Depot or Lowes or any other large hard ware Store. In the kitchen cabinet and kitchen wall covering section they will sell thin sheets of plastic wall covering that are 4 foot by 8 foot. They cost $12 to $15 each. These are simply rolled into a tube that g has a 2 inch wide overlap. While someone holds the tube wrap some tape around it to hold the round shape. Now drill a hole through both layers of the over lap a few inches from one end. Insert a pop rivet and squeeze the handle as directed until the excess rivet stems pops off. Now go to the other end and do the same. Now install a rivet every 8 inches or so. Take off the tape. Set the riveted side down on the floor or a table top. Now push on the top side. Squeeze down to approximately 6 inches tall. This is a 6&#8221; by approx 19.5 inch tube. If you want a 4 tube wide system (24 inches wide( you need to make three more tubes. IE one tube for every six inches of width. You can also make the tubes shorter and taller by roll the tubes side ways.
Now for 24 inch wide tube arrangements. Cut a piece of plywood 24&#8221; wide plus add the thickness of tow layers of plywood as once the plywood is put together it should be 24&#8221; wide inside the wood trough. Now add two sides 24&#8221; wide. Cut all of these a to about 94 inches long. Screw the sides to the 24 inch wide bottom to form a trough. Cut some 1&#8221; to 2&#8221; wide slats the length of your bottom board width. Keep the drill and slats handy. Now with the help of another push all four tubes into the box trough so that they are squeezed to 6&#8221; wide and 19.5 inches tall approx. Now install temporarily some cross slats to hold the tubes in place and to prevent the ti op of the trough from spreading. Now mark for a net pot hiole every 6: or what every spacing you prefer. I grow sog so I use 6&#8221; spacing. Now half way between each hole marking measure out for a mister head and put an X mark there. Drill your holes moving cross braces as needed. Now reinstall your cross braces where they do not interfere with your holes.
For now simply close the ends of the tubes with some black plastic bag material held in place with tape. Cut a hole in the one end bag for drainage. Use a piece og PVC gutter, two end caps and a down spout adapter for the drainage collection. Run this to a reservoir so that you can occasionally measure the drainage EC and so as to calculate the amount of water up taken by the roots. Later you can cut plates out of acrylic plastic for the tube ends so as to be able to see how your system and the roots are doing. These are simply held in place with some silicone caulking.


*Tube End Plate Cutting Directions*

For the 19.5 inch tall tubes 6" wide. Draw on a piece of paper a rectangle 13.5 inches tall and 6" wide. Now draw a half circle 6 inches wide and three inches tall on the bottom and top of the rectangle. Cut out the paper pattern on the inside of the lines so smaller by just just about 1/8 of an inch. This is the pattern fot the acrylic plates. It is also nice to put one about 2.5 feet down fron each end to help hold the tube shape. For the ones inside the tubes and the drainage end cut out a half circle at the center bottom of the plates with your larger hole saw used to make the net pot holes. The plates within the tubes can be held in place with a generous amount of silicone and friction. The same for the end plates.


*The Pump and Its Controls*
Previously I posted a thread for the misters. They supply ¾ to 1 gallon per hour. Therefore they need to spray approx 2 seconds per every minute as it takes about half that time to fully build up to over 35 psi in the tubing feeding the misters. If you spray too much you get to few hair roots but the plants will grow taller. If you spray too little the plants will grow huge amounts of hair roots and the plants will be short (dwarfed) plants. If you spray small amounts at long intervals between sprays the plants will have short inter nodal spacing (thick long buds) and will be short, and will bud very quickly. IE Ideal SOG conditions.
The pump I recommend is the IWAKI MD-70RZT pump. It is designed to run continuously. It can easily supply water to over 500 sprayers. The MD-30RZT also works but supplies more water in the 30 to 50 micron range and will only supply up to about 50 sprayers. A Hundred cam be supplied but no real well. As the system is high pressure, barbed fitting will not work well as too many leaks always appear and therefore the pressure is greatly reduced. Therefore I use John Guest fittings in my designs. They are available cheaply here in bulk. 
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/m-3-john-guest.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=john%20guest%20fittings&utm_campaign=Search%20-%20Brand%20-%20John%20Guest&KEYWORD_K=john%20guest%20fittings&TRACKING_ID_K=2819d8d4-f994-fb49-9a60-00005417b730&CHANNEL_K=google&CAMPAIGN_K=Search%20-%20Brand%20-%20John%20Guest&AdGROUP_K=John%20Guest&gclid=CNSOroTi8JsCFRIcawodKQ1l-w 
I run white polypropylene fittings. 
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/c-500-john-guest-pp-range-white-polypropylene-fittings.aspx
This at the beginning to attach to3/8&#8221; tubing.
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2975-male-connector-nptf-polypro-38-x-12-nptf.aspx
This for each two misters.
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3030-reducing-tee-polypro-38-x-14-x-38.aspx
Also this one to connect to the last fitting:
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2978-union-tee-polypro-14.aspx
This to connect to each mister.
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2981-union-elbow-polypro-14.aspx
These for the end of each feed 3/8&#8221; line.
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2998-plug-polypro-38.aspx
[URL]http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2985-union-connector-polypro-38.aspx[/URL]

*Timer* 
For the timer use a timer that allows for increments as short as two seconds every one minute. At the discharge of the pump install a tee fitting 3/4 &#8220; and two electric solenoids. A normally closed and a normally open. The normally open is installed on the branch of the TEE fitting that supplies a return to the feed reservoir, The normally closed is installed on the branch of the Tee fitting supplying water to the misters. The pump runs constant so as to not have a shortened life span due to being repeatedly and frequently turned on and off.

*Alternative Designs*
Use deep chambers. A deep camber can be made easily out of dead chest freezers. They come with a drain. They are deep so allow for long large root masses. Simply remove the lid and cover with a piece of acrylic plastic painted first with Krylon Fushion flat black pai t and then flat white paint Drill holes with a hole saw for net pots and misters.

Also a good option is to make deep cubic shaped boxes with a drain and paint them with tow part epoxy paint. The paint is made foruse in painting the inside of drinking water tanks so it is safe for use with aero grown plants. Use an acrylic plastic lid drilled and painted.

*There is no other system with a full write up anywhere in this forum, or anywhere else on the web with a higher yield in a shorter time then this system. And there are no low DO issues or root rot issues. Low nutrient reservoir temps are not necessary.*

*Lighting*
I use horizontal 250 watt lights, two HPS and one 6500K halide lights from eBay. I use DIY liquid cooled so the lights are only a few inches above vegging and budding plants. Air cooled lighting tube also work well but require the lights be a higher. With close lighting the 47 watts per square foot is mre than enough lighting. Larger lights must be hung higher so many times they actually supply poorer light as well as porrlydistributed uneven lighting. The reflectors are simplehomemade parabolic reflectors made with specrralar aluminum from Canada. I use glass tubing from here. they sell it in 60 inck long tubes but cut to orger. I buy it cut to 20" lengths.

*http://www.winshipdesigns.com/home/ws3/smartlist_35/oversized_clear_tube.html*

*The alumnum reflector material:*
http://anomet.com/cgi-bin/online/storepro.php

This sytem can easily be up sized or down sized and is not really an expensive or difficult system to set up. Thepump is usually available on Ebay for about $110. The misters are only a few cents more expensive than the low pressure sprayers. The solenoids are available on ebay.




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## freeze600cc (May 26, 2010)

first..........


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## andar (May 26, 2010)

one of these days..... i really want to try something like this or eventually the high pressure systems ive seen you post about. thanks for posting this information. i like reading your posts even though some people dont seem to


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## fatman7574 (May 26, 2010)

I just got another infraction point from a moderator for insulting someone so I will not say anything to hurt the feelings of the the "others."


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## WaterDog (May 26, 2010)

Got pics??? I'm lost Sorry


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## fatman7574 (May 26, 2010)

WaterDog said:


> Got pics??? I'm lost Sorry


I quit posting photos after my last drug conviction for manafacturing. I think the directions are simple. Do you have questions? What part is confusing? I can add or edit it to possibly make it simplier, but I need to know what part is not under standable and therefore needs editting or additionalexplanation. Would drawings help? I can post photos of materials and tools, pumps etc. I will not post photos of completely assembled systems, systems in operation or fany finished agricultural products produced by my assembled systems or system designs already in use that I desined for others. 

I can perhaps post photos of constructed components such as tubes ready for use, with misters and their plumbing. Plumbing with solenoids at Tee fitting etc. Even end plates, or all the components for DIY water cooled or air cooled lighting tubes and directions to make and assemble them. the water cooled ubes requaire a router a drill and a fewtaps for threading holes for screws and water fittings. I have a simple soft ware program for making the reflectors but it either has to be down loaded from on-line or sent to an email address allowing attaahments.
But no photos will be posted of a working or fully assembled system. Won't do that. I do not post drug or drug paraphernalia photos on a mj growing site.


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## freeze600cc (May 26, 2010)

You had online photos used against you as legit evidence?


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## Banditt (May 26, 2010)

drawings would be good, it's hard to visualize it from the description.


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## squarepush3r (May 26, 2010)

+1 from drawings/diagrams. I understand the basics such as
:medium pressure aero system
:drain to waste
ump runs 24 hours with solenoid

beyond that, i can't visualize the how it would actually look with the tube assembly or where the roots go or where the plant goes and where the misters go.

PLease don't post any pictures that would incriminate you, but maybe pictures of a setup without any plants in it would be good, or drawings/CAD pictues etc...

Also, Fatman, how do you deal with the big vulnerability of aero, that being if there is any sort of system/pump/electric failure, your whole crop is essentially lost after a few hours?



doc111 said:


> I thought you were 100% legal now. If so, then why the paranoia?


im sure its better being safe than sorry. Even if he had to go through a legal litigation to prove he was innocent, it would be a big hassle


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## doc111 (May 26, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> I quit posting photos after my last drug conviction for manafacturing. I think the directions are simple. Do you have questions? What part is confusing? I can add or edit it to possibly make it simplier, but I need to know what part is not under standable and therefore needs editting or additionalexplanation. Would drawings help? I can post photos of materials and tools, pumps etc. I will not post photos of completely assembled systems, systems in operation or fany finished agricultural products produced by my assembled systems or system designs already in use that I desined for others.
> 
> I can perhaps post photos of constructed components such as tubes ready for use, with misters and their plumbing. Plumbing with solenoids at Tee fitting etc. Even end plates, or all the components for DIY water cooled or air cooled lighting tubes and directions to make and assemble them. the water cooled ubes requaire a router a drill and a fewtaps for threading holes for screws and water fittings. I have a simple soft ware program for making the reflectors but it either has to be down loaded from on-line or sent to an email address allowing attaahments.
> But no photos will be posted of a working or fully assembled system. Won't do that. I do not post drug or drug paraphernalia photos on a mj growing site.


I thought you were 100% legal now. If so, then why the paranoia?




fatman7574 said:


> I sell no mj. I am a consultant to a mj non profit orgainzation that grows medical mj. I maintain one or tow test bed systems in my home for design testing and research. IE notice the words NON PROFIT. It requires a permit from the state to make purchases. The majority is actually provided to registered/licensed users free of cost. None is sold to no medical mj users. Most is actually distributed for only the cost of the monthly $10 dues required to join the non profit organization. I am a fully tenured college professor with a PhD, a Masters, and a handfull of Bachelors degree. I own two small businesses and own and operate an engineering consulting/design firm. The businesses are a coral propagation business and reef aquarium systems design business. I employee three full time engineers and an administrative staff of 4 people and keep an average of 4 or 5 part time graduate students empoyeed at any given time in the reef business.
> 
> I have no need for the money that could be made from illegal drug sells. I have never in my life sold drugs child, nor have I ever supplied mj to anyone but a person with a permit for medical marijana. I paid the attorney d fees and all cots needed to start up the first non profit organization in myhome state in 1987 after the 15 year old daughter of a friend entered chemo therapy treatment for cancer. She was the frst client to receive mj from the organization. Have I designed systems for people who may not use them for growing medical mj. I do not ask them who they will be growing for or why. I tell them how I feel about drug addiction and "recreational" use of drugs and alcohol and leave it at that. I do not ask people here who ask for help what they intend to do with the mj they grow. My control stops at what I grow. I know what I grow and the on prf ofit grows only goes to legal medical mj users. Much even gets thrown away. At an averageproduction cost of less than 50 cents per gram who acres about a few pounds thrown a way evey week or so. Recreational users are loser. They are wasting a part of their lives (wasted/stoned out side of reality) that they can never relive with all their senses. That is losing.
> 
> Selling pot. I likely pay more in taxes per year then the combined yearly incomes of 10 or more posters on this site.


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## doc111 (May 26, 2010)

squarepush3r said:


> +1 from drawings/diagrams. I understand the basics such as
> :medium pressure aero system
> :drain to waste
> ump runs 24 hours with solenoid
> ...


My point is that he says he doesn't grow, sell or smoke weed. If so then why is he worried about posting pics of his "system"?


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## Banditt (May 26, 2010)

doc111 said:


> My point is that he says he doesn't grow, sell or smoke weed. If so then why is he worried about posting pics of his "system"?


What difference does it make? He posts lots of usual information here on this forum so why do you wanna bust his balls over whether he has plants in his home or not?


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## doc111 (May 26, 2010)

Banditt said:


> What difference does it make? He posts lots of usual information here on this forum so why do you wanna bust his balls over whether he has plants in his home or not?


I could give a shit what fatman grows or doesn't grow. It just seems unusual for someone to brag about being 100% legal yet they won't show pics of their setup. That doesn't make you a little suspicious? A little healthy suspicion is a good thing when it comes to this hobby don't ya think? He is also a jerk to just about anybody that posts in his threads or asks him a question.


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## squarepush3r (May 26, 2010)

doc111 said:


> My point is that he says he doesn't grow, sell or smoke weed. If so then why is he worried about posting pics of his "system"?


 well, he has done jail time in the past.

Also, I am currently 100% medical and legal, however I am still reluctant to spread that information. Simple thing is police don't know the laws always, and could give you hassle costing you $10,000's+ just on their mistakes even if you are found to be innocent. Better safe than sorry imo, well take what Fatman gives us, he isn't obligated to post here if he doesn't feel comfortable with certain details.


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## Banditt (May 26, 2010)

doc111 said:


> It just seems unusual for someone to brag about being 100% legal yet they won't show pics of their setup.


Doesn't seem unusual to me. My suspicion is he is not actually 100% legal and does not wish to incriminate himself by saying otherwise or posting pics. Either way it makes no difference to me. He obviously knows what he is talking about. So just soak up the knowledge and forget the BS. At least thats how I feel about it. No sense driving away people with useful knowledge. This board is losing enough people as it is.


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## doc111 (May 26, 2010)

fatman and I go back a ways. We have friendly banter (I actually just like to see him get worked up). It's all good. I grow soil so I don't have a lot of use for this info but it looks good to me.


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## jayww (May 26, 2010)

plus 1 million, on the drawing, cad, etc of a drawing, would help alot!!


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## squarepush3r (May 26, 2010)

doc111 said:


> fatman and I go back a ways. We have friendly banter (I actually just like to see him get worked up). It's all good. I grow soil so I don't have a lot of use for this info but it looks good to me.


 maybe well have you as a new convert soon ^_^


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## fatman7574 (May 26, 2010)

doc111 said:


> My point is that he says he doesn't grow, sell or smoke weed. If so then why is he worried about posting pics of his "system"?


I do not smoke pot anymore that is true. I quit smoking many 20 years a go that is true. I do grow mj for others that is true. I am forbidden by state law from holding a permit to grow medical mj for anyone. A fact, as I am a convicted drug felon. I have always grown mj since 1974, except while in prison. Even then my own growing is now limited to research and system designs, testing of new designs, seed production, nutrient research etc. I have tissue samples tested of all I grow so I am quite aware of what the systems are capable of doing. I also grow many things besides mj. No I do not smoke or sell the mj grown in my own home, but by state law I am allowed to grow the mj in my own home. No I myself as a drug felon can not grow even medical mj for others. That is against state law. I simply just don't talk about what I do with that which is grown in my own home. Even then I am in no way exempt from federal laws against growing mj for my self. The non profit organization I am associatted with grows only medical mj and distributes it only to licensed medical marijuana users that are members of the orgainization. They pay a $10 per month fee to the organization..Often that is all they pay for the mj they receive. the organization operates legally under state law and with a *federal tax exemption* so I really am not fearful of that involement. I see only the few medical MJ users that are members that show up at the Members annual board meeting. None typically show up at the regular monthly board meetings. I do not even know their names. They are known to be only by permit numbers. I do not deal with the clients. I am a consultant and an executive board member. I paid the initail fees, and lawyer cost to get the organization founded in 1986. The people actually doing the growing are contracted employees. The board members receive no pay, only employees. Ido not charge consulting fees to medical mj growers who possess permits to grow for others. Al consulations or sytem design woork other wise comes at a cost. These funds I donate to the non profit. Anything else yu want to know doc111. I aloso own an Environmental enginnering design and cossulation firm with full time three engineers on staff and two other unrelated businesses. My university salary alone assures me of adequatefumnds to do what ever I wish without worrying about money. The rest is just cream on the cake.

The other stystems I design for others are their business. I only assist in a consulatation manner after the designed system is constructed. Once they are constructed and in use I seldom have much involvment as they are typically just up sized (large) version of designs I build in a small scale Many of the designs start out in a university reserch lab. I am a Professorand resercher by occupation. The small scale vesrios designed in my home or the university lab are typiaccly sized more in line with what a small scale commercial growers need. They are easily down scaled from there but some efficiency is loss as things like CO2 systems and EC and pH controllers and pump or solenoid systems cost the same regardless of the system size to a large degree. If you did some resaech you would find that post information that knowinly is used by another individual to manafcture a controlled substance is conspiracy. set my limit of what chances I would takewhen I resumed posting to mj forums after my last stint in prison. I wil discuss sytems design and growing information and nutreint ifo etc to legal growers of medical mj. However I will not post photos of ready y to use systems, systems in use or products produced. If that is not acceptable to a perons or persons I suggest that the put me on their ignore list and remove this thread from their subscription list... 

The picture posting topic is closed!!!!!!

Doc111: I had you on my ignore list for along time for good cause. For good cause you are now back on my ignore list. I would prefer you put me on your ignore list and remove this thread from your subscriptions list. Thank you.


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## fatman7574 (May 27, 2010)

squarepush3r said:


> +1 from drawings/diagrams. I understand the basics such as
> :medium pressure aero system
> :drain to waste
> ump runs 24 hours with solenoid Two solenoids
> ...


Prison is such a waste of time.

Photos and copies of posts from an online mj forum site were presented in evidence against me in the lower courts. They needed no search warrnts to obtain them as the forum the site gave them to the police upon a verbal request. All physical evidence from the search warants on my home were thrown out due to their improperly obtained and executed.The posted words were throw out, but the lower court allowed the photos to be entered as as evidence. Ie it was the only evidence. I was convicted of a class B drug manafacturing felony. The 9th Districts Federal Appellate Court ruled that the photos were improperly used as evidence of a crime. However they would not over turn the conviction as they said the photos were *not prejudicial* because although the photos were not evidence that could be used toward determining a conviction they could be used to show that I had a *propensity to commit* *the* *crime of manafacturing an illicit drug*, so I could be found guilty on circumstantial evidence alone. They did not indicate just what the circumstantial evidence might be. Gofigure. And that was thecourt that made the determination that a States Constitution could guarantee te individual the right to possess and use pot in the privacy of their own home. I was growing a great deal over the number of plants (24) allowed for personal use by the state.


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## MediMary (May 27, 2010)

w0w fatman, you really do know you stuff... +rep brother


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## doc111 (May 27, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> I do not smoke pot anymore that is true. I quit smoking many 20 years a go that is true. I do grow mj for others that is true. I am forbidden by state law from holding a permit to grow medical mj for anyone. A fact, as I am a convicted drug felon. I have always grown mj since 1974, except while in prison. Even then my own growing is now limited to research and system designs, testing of new designs, seed production, nutrient research etc. I have tissue samples tested of all I grow so I am quite aware of what the systems are capable of doing. I also grow many things besides mj. No I do not smoke or sell the mj grown in my own home, but by state law I am allowed to grow the mj in my own home. No I myself as a drug felon can not grow even medical mj for others. That is against state law. I simply just don't talk about what I do with that which is grown in my own home. Even then I am in no way exempt from federal laws against growing mj for my self. The non profit organization I am associatted with grows only medical mj and distributes it only to licensed medical marijuana users that are members of the orgainization. They pay a $10 per month fee to the organization..Often that is all they pay for the mj they receive. the organization operates legally under state law and with a *federal tax exemption* so I really am not fearful of that involement. I see only the few medical MJ users that are members that show up at the Members annual board meeting. None typically show up at the regular monthly board meetings. I do not even know their names. They are known to be only by permit numbers. I do not deal with the clients. I am a consultant and an executive board member. I paid the initail fees, and lawyer cost to get the organization founded in 1986. The people actually doing the growing are contracted employees. The board members receive no pay, only employees. Ido not charge consulting fees to medical mj growers who possess permits to grow for others. Al consulations or sytem design woork other wise comes at a cost. These funds I donate to the non profit. Anything else yu want to know doc111. I aloso own an Environmental enginnering design and cossulation firm with full time three engineers on staff and two other unrelated businesses. My university salary alone assures me of adequatefumnds to do what ever I wish without worrying about money. The rest is just cream on the cake.
> 
> The other stystems I design for others are their business. I only assist in a consulatation manner after the designed system is constructed. Once they are constructed and in use I seldom have much involvment as they are typically just up sized (large) version of designs I build in a small scale Many of the designs start out in a university reserch lab. I am a Professorand resercher by occupation. The small scale vesrios designed in my home or the university lab are typiaccly sized more in line with what a small scale commercial growers need. They are easily down scaled from there but some efficiency is loss as things like CO2 systems and EC and pH controllers and pump or solenoid systems cost the same regardless of the system size to a large degree. If you did some resaech you would find that post information that knowinly is used by another individual to manafcture a controlled substance is conspiracy. set my limit of what chances I would takewhen I resumed posting to mj forums after my last stint in prison. I wil discuss sytems design and growing information and nutreint ifo etc to legal growers of medical mj. However I will not post photos of ready y to use systems, systems in use or products produced. If that is not acceptable to a perons or persons I suggest that the put me on their ignore list and remove this thread from their subscription list...
> 
> ...


I don't care if you post pictures or not. I never mentioned having a problem with you not posting pictures. Hell, I don't post pictures too often either. See, I too am legal but understand the catch 22 us legal, medicinal users of cannabis find ourselves in with conflicting federal and state laws. You and I may not see eye to eye on many issues fatman but dissent is good. My only problem with you is your treatment of other members on here. You have been downright rude and abusive to countless members and IMO it's almost always uncalled for. I've read your posts where you say you aren't here to make friends and that you know you're an asshole. I don't think that excuses this type of behavior. You may be knowledgeable and have your little band of followers but you aren't the only game in town either. I won't put you on ignore because you don't bother me that much (since you don't care what others think of you, I'm puzzled by the fact that I bother you). I don't subscribe to threads, I simply follow the ones that interest me and when they cease to be interesting, I stop following them so don't worry fatdude, I am not subscribed to your thread. You don't own your thread, RIU owns it and if they see fit to keep me from it then I will oblige. Don't worry, I won't post in this thread anymore. I simply find you a fascinating yet perplexing individual. You say you don't care about what people say or think of you yet you write a book explaining why you don't care. That doesn't make sense. If you don't like me and don't want to read what I have to say then simply put me on ignore and don't remove me. I trully could care less.


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## fLaPzZ (May 27, 2010)

Good instructions Fatman, cheers. I've got very good friend who's a plumber and also alot better at DIY than me! I'm gonna study and think through this system and find where I can source the parts in the UK. I've always wanted to try med/high pressure aero. I'm sure I may need some advice at certain points. Can't wait to try it once it's finished.


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## squarepush3r (May 27, 2010)

Hi fatman

I was considering designing a medium pressure aero system using these buckets for tree grows. Its a 27 Gallon Heavy Duty bucket.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_44066-51438-2921-002_0_?newSearch=true&catalogId=10051&productId=3033542&Ntt=27+gallon&N=0&langId=-1&y=0&x=0&storeId=10151&Ntk=i_products&ddkey=http:SearchCatalogDisplay



How many misters would you recommend for each tub (1 plant pet tub), and in what configuration? Would you recommend installign some sort of root supports in the middle of the bucket space for support?


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## fatman7574 (May 27, 2010)

Net pot. Elevate the reservoir so as to be able to drain from the bottom. Throw a piece of plastic light grating on the bottom with a layer of silk screen over that to keep roots out of standing water. Tilt thee resevor slightly to the drain placed in the bottom corner of the resrvoir. If using the 3/4 to 1 gph misters use about 4 misters mounted through the lid or inside on a loop of pipe. About 2 seconds of spray per every two minutes would be a good starting place for pre rooted clones. Use pots with no media or with a very open spaced media such as bio balls. Never an absorbent media such as rock wool. I prefer open roots in net pots with no media. If the sprayers reinside the tubs remember you are supplying moisture to the enire volume of the tub, not the roots specificlly. IE you are filling the entire tub with a mist of a size best utilized by the roots. you shouldnot intentionally try to spray the roots directly. It is best if you never even see much standing water accumulatte on the roots etc. It depends a lot on theplantheight you desire. For taller plants you catually need to over water the plany ts to lower the percentage of larteral and hair roots. Yes, using the sytem not at its highest efficincy allows for tallrpalnts. Run at the most efficientlvels thre palnts have shortinternodal spav cingtherefore they are shorter. This is what makes the system great for sog and fast cycle grows. It is like taking a 48 inch plant with all its branches but shortening the space between all the branches to 1/3 the normal distance. A 48" plant grown in a less efiicent system with a less efficient nutrient delivery system becomes a 16" to 18" tall plant in the more efficient system. Plus it does this quicker and has the same buds yield as the 48" plant, but wih no open spaces between the buds. IE just colas. The main side branches are cut off as clone stock when growing SOG. No side lighting is needed as horizonal lights can supply enough intensity to the shorter plants.


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## squarepush3r (May 28, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Net pot. Elevate the reservoir so as to be able to drain from the bottom. Throw a piece of plastic light grating on the bottom with a layer of silk screen over that to keep roots out of standing water. Tilt thee resevor slightly to the drain placed in the bottom corner of the resrvoir. If using the 3/4 to 1 gph misters use about 4 misters mounted through the lid or inside on a loop of pipe. About 2 seconds of spray per every two minutes would be a good starting place for pre rooted clones. Use pots with no media or with a very open spaced media such as bio balls. Never an absorbent media such as rock wool. I prefer open roots in net pots with no media. If the sprayers reinside the tubs remember you are supplying moisture to the enire volume of the tub, not the roots specificlly. IE you are filling the entire tub with a mist of a size best utilized by the roots. you shouldnot intentionally try to spray the roots directly. It is best if you never even see much standing water accumulatte on the roots etc. It depends a lot on theplantheight you desire. For taller plants you catually need to over water the plany ts to lower the percentage of larteral and hair roots. Yes, using the sytem not at its highest efficincy allows for tallrpalnts. Run at the most efficientlvels thre palnts have shortinternodal spav cingtherefore they are shorter. This is what makes the system great for sog and fast cycle grows. It is like taking a 48 inch plant with all its branches but shortening the space between all the branches to 1/3 the normal distance. A 48" plant grown in a less efiicent system with a less efficient nutrient delivery system becomes a 16" to 18" tall plant in the more efficient system. Plus it does this quicker and has the same buds yield as the 48" plant, but wih no open spaces between the buds. IE just colas. The main side branches are cut off as clone stock when growing SOG. No side lighting is needed as horizonal lights can supply enough intensity to the shorter plants.


yes, the medical laws in my state are more generous towards plants under the number 6. So tree grow has its appeal, but I do like the efficiencies of medium pressure aero and nice roots they give.


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## fatman7574 (May 28, 2010)

Just don't push the envelope and go for maximum efficiency and trees are easy enough. The fact that at the beginning of each spray cycle the pressure is lower than with a high pressure aero means an initial larger droplet size with every spray cycle. This means it causes some degree of oversaturation with every cycle. This is fine though as t is not as easy inadvertantly grow an excessive hair root ratio which leads to an inability to grow trees. This likelyhood is nearly eliminated with the medium pressure aero. It would take a specific effort to cause that ratio of hair roots in a medium pressure aero. One would likely need to put a solenoid on every single mister right at rhe mister as well as a solenoid at the pumps tee that are all operated on the same timer circuit to not cause the small amount of over saturation that prevents this over dwarfing caused by a too large ratio of hair roots.


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## squarepush3r (May 28, 2010)

hi Fatman. I don't think you are going to like this, but how about this idea for a hybrid system.

Using a large type bucket ~ 30 gallons, create a hybrid system
1) bottom 20% of the bucket water level will be recirculating high speed water.
2) the upper 80% of the bucket area will be medium pressure aeroponics.

So its essentially an aeroponic system, with the addition of the bottom portion being recirculating nutrients, for the purpose of fail-safe operation in case the lines/misters get blocked, or the solenoids/pump/recycle timer fail. In the case the aeroponic system fails for any reasons, the bottom portion of the roots will be in water and allowed to continue uptake of nutrients for a longer time until the problem is fixed. The upper 80% majority of the bucket will be empty space for the aeroponic misters to flood with mist every 10 minutes. This will allow for a large portion of highly developed root system and retaining many benefits of aeroponics.


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## fatman7574 (May 28, 2010)

That is often done in research and some smaller commercial operations just for the reasons you mention. It is of course iis a ststem in efficiency and yields in between the two systems results if set up seperately. Resarcher typically run about 25% to 40% DWC and shoot for high hair root ratios on the aero roots. A 32 gallon trash can lid if 30 inches in diameter would have almost 5 square feet of lid area. One 24 50 watt light per trash can would be ggod. That would mean 20 sog plants or 5 larger plants per can. Just use uniseals to run the pump plumbing. As long ast you used gate valves instead of cheaply poorly adjustable ball valves you could use just one Iwaki high pressure pump for several set ups, probably abouy 4 trash cans (barrels) with one 1000 watt light. Just use distributer fittings to branch out the water lines and return lines from the DWC and the balancing should be easy enough. Also tie each barrel together seperately with pipes so the water levels remain the same. 

http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVC-Manifolds-Distributors

Good bio ball prices for thosewanting to use media in their ner=t pots with trees in aero sytems.

http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=BioBalls


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## squarepush3r (May 28, 2010)

another question for Fatman. I've been researching Solenoids.

Will a 3/2 Solenoid work as a simple all in 1 to handle our needs?

http://www.jaksa.si/English/index4_en.html


I've been a bit confused on what exactly a 3/2 solenoid valve is, and how it differs from a 3 way valve or if they are the same.

This is the model I am looking at 
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-3-2-Norgren-Herion-1-2-Solenoid-Valve-8020871-/350357671932?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5192f1cffc


Also, more questions on your fittings. By the way I am going to make your system, or something close to it. I already placed a bid on an Iwaki pump on ebay and rounding up the other parts now. So, you will see something in action in several weeks very likely.

Can you explain more how you use these fittings?
the 3/8 x 1/4 x 3/8 (call this *fitting A*)
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3030-reducing-tee-polypro-38-x-14-x-38.aspx

and the 
1/4 x 1/4 x 1/4 (call this *fitting B*)
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2978-union-tee-polypro-14.aspx

this is how I think it works , ignore the *...* its just for placeholder.
<----------------*A*-----------------> (3/8 feed line)
...................*|*
...................*|*<- 1/4 feed line
*...................B*
..................*/* *\* <- 2x 1/4 feed line
.................*/*...*\*
..........mister...mister <- 2 misters

so, the 3/8th lines branches off with A to the 1/4th line, then the B branches off to the 2 misters?


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## fatman7574 (May 28, 2010)

squarepush3r said:


> another question for Fatman. I've been researching Solenoids.
> 
> Will a 3/2 Solenoid work as a simple all in 1 to handle our needs? The 3 port two way valve such as that is one inlet and two outlets. Both outlets open and close together. They make divertor valves (Plastomatic) that has one inlet and two outlets. It has either one or the other open, not both at the same time. They are expensive and seldom sold surplus on eBay. The top of the line plastic Solenoid valves are Hayward Valves: http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m570&_nkw=hayward+solenoid It really with drain to waste not reqi uire plastic valves but with any recirculating system plastic is preferable as they have a much higher lifespan and they do not leach copper into the nutrients. mj has a low tolerance for copper.
> 
> ...


I will post a drawing later this evening. I have a meeting I must attend that starts in 35 mimutes.


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## Intenzity (May 28, 2010)

Just go here -

http://www.stinkbuddies.com

It is the same basic system, but that site has parts lists, diagrams, pictures etc. The only difference is change the the gutters to a big box it sounds like.

This is not a new design here. It is very very common and well documented all over the internet and other grow sites.


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## squarepush3r (May 28, 2010)

Intenzity said:


> Just go here -
> 
> http://www.stinkbuddies.com
> 
> ...


 inb4 shitstorm


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## Hidden Dragon (May 29, 2010)

squarepush3r said:


> inb4 shitstorm


Yeah, as Mr Lahey would say, the shit-mother of all shitstorms. LOL


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## fatman7574 (May 29, 2010)

This is a sketch of the feeder line for a pair of tubes first intersection for two misters. The 3/8" tube lays betwwen two tubes and a Tee fitting 3/8" x 1/4" x 3/8" is installed for each pair of misters, an approxoimatte 3" riser of 1/4" tube is inserted and a 1/4" x 1/4" x 1/4" Tee is installedd on that. A piece of 1/4" tubing is installed on that that is approx 4.25" long. A 90 degree 1/4" x 1/4" fitting is installed on the ends of each 1/4" pipe. A short 1/4" tube is installed on the end of the 90 degree fitting and the mister is installed on that. Continue down the line and use a 3/8" union at the end and install either a 3/8" plug on that or just run a 3/8" diamter tube to the other identical lay out used for the other two tubes.


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## squarepush3r (May 29, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> This is a sketch of the feeder line for a pair of tubes first intersection for two misters. The 3/8" tube lays betwwen two tubes and a Tee fitting 3/8" x 1/4" x 3/8" is installed for each pair of misters, an approxoimatte 3" riser of 1/4" tube is inserted and a 1/4" x 1/4" x 1/4" Tee is installedd on that. A piece of 1/4" tubing is installed on that that is approx 4.25" long. A 90 degree 1/4" x 1/4" fitting is installed on the ends of each 1/4" pipe. A short 1/4" tube is installed on the end of the 90 degree fitting and the mister is installed on that. Continue down the line and use a 3/8" union at the end and install either a 3/8" plug on that or just run a 3/8" diamter tube to the other identical lay out used for the other two tubes.
> 
> View attachment 963512


 makes perfect sense now, this system actually seems rather simple. I am eager to get my parts so i can start running some test configurations and eventually get a working model.


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## fatman7574 (May 29, 2010)

Intenzity said:


> It is the same basic system, but that site has parts lists, diagrams, pictures etc. The only difference is change the the gutters to a big box it sounds like.
> 
> This is not a new design here. It is very very common and well documented all over the internet and other grow sites.


Ha, ha, you try to be a funny boy child, huh?

Dude, what are you talking about. Are you really saying what it sounds like. His system is a small tube, low pressure system, that is in no way the same as the medium pressure, large tube, misting aero system using a drain to waste nutrient supply system. Your trying to compare stinkbuds system made with sprayers that trickle out streams of water into 4" square tubes/fence posts where roots lay piled up deeply in water that does not supply adequate DO to most of the roots. Even the extar NFT water is inadequate to the task of proving adequate DO to all the roots. His system is fed by a cheap, high volume, low pressure, pump putting out probably 2 to 5 psi of pressure when the manufacturers states these high volume 8 to 10 gph sprayers require 15 to 30 psi of water. He is using a recirculating reservoir system fraught with nutrient inbalance and buffers issues that mean the plants are poorly supplied with nutrients. 

The design I have laid out in this write up has tubes deep enough that the system has its roots suspended in air as an aero roots are supposed to do. The system is fed by a pump delivering 44 psi pressure to misters that require 35 to 80 psi, not 2 to 5 psi to sprayers requiring over 15 to 30 psi as in stinkbuds a in a n aero system. My ssy tem spraysa nutrient waterdroplets specific to the mneeds of thepalants. They are low volume misters, that spray a mist. Their flow range is either 3/4 gph or 1 gph, not someinsane 8 to 10 gallon per hours stream and trickles of water. Dude there is no system such as this aywhere else in the forums. It is a new design that I used for years and designed for commercial grower use. I introduced to the forums Dude. 

Stinkbuds aero/NFT system is not his system, it is simply a copy of systems that preceded his. 

My system is not like his or a copy of anyone elses system in this forum or any other Dude.

His providing lists and diagrams to build an obviously poorer system way past its once meager prime does not improve it nor make it comparable to better systems such as the one I have just laid out in this write up Dude.

Dude you have a lot to learn if you think the systems are comparable or that my system design is simply the same as stinkbud's but with larger tubes. Read and learn child, read and learn. Maybe I should put it on a $1 CD and sell it for $25. That's real class. A CD of an illicit drug growing system and operation. Maybe he is not a US resident.


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## fdd2blk (May 29, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> *Ha, ha, you try to be a funny boy child, huh?*
> 
> Dude, what are you talking about. Are you really saying what it sounds like. His system is a small tube, low pressure system, that is in no way the same as the medium pressure, large tube, misting aero system using a drain to waste nutrient supply system. Your trying to compare stinkbuds system made with sprayers that trickle out streams of water into 4" square tubes/fence posts where roots lay piled up deeply in water that does not supply adequate DO to most of the roots. Even the extar NFT water is inadequate to the task of proving adequate DO to all the roots. His system is fed by a cheap, high volume, low pressure, pump putting out probably 2 to 5 psi of pressure when the manufacturers states these high volume 8 to 10 gph sprayers require 15 to 30 psi of water. He is using a recirculating reservoir system fraught with nutrient inbalance and buffers issues that mean the plants are poorly supplied with nutrients.
> 
> ...





i politely asked him over and over, and over, and over again to stop with the insults. 

i don't care how smart you feel you are, this type of attitude is not welcome here.


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