# The Real Scoop on Co2



## legallyflying (Apr 25, 2011)

Hey fellow growers, I've been pretty quiet lately just a growing and working. My journals are completed and spring and summer are probably going to me no time to start another journal. At any rate, there seems to be this recurring trend of post after post of how to use co2 so I thought I would purge my knowledge on the subject to help people decide if it right for them....

*Advantages of co2:* Faster growth, denser growth = more yield. Like big time more. the claims of 40-100% increase in yield are no joke.

*Disadvantages:* costs money, bottle can be a PIA, burners generate heat and humidity.

*How it works: *This is the important thing. Co2 is not a magical substance or bloom enhancer. Its a naturally occurring gas, depending on how close you live to a freeway  co2 right now tends to hover around 350-400 PPM. Co2 allows you to take advantage of increases in a plant metabolism when conditions allow for higher metabolism. IF you don't have the conditions for higher metabolism, then your wasting your money. There are not a whole lot of things that a plant needs to grow and bloom. Light, heat, co2, water, and nutrients. Generally when the temperature increases, so does the plants metabolic rate (the speed at which the chemical processes that allow for plant function are happening) They are kind of like cold blooded animals really. When its too cold, they don't do much, when it is too hot, they shut down to conserve energy. well, plants don't really shut down, they do other stuff but this isn't a plant physiology post. 

So, as the metabolic rate increases, so does the demand for light, co2, and water. When one of these parameters is not present in high enough amounts to sustain the metabolic rate, it becomes a *limiting factor. *That is, inadequate amounts of light, water, or co2 causes an end to the increase in the rate of photosynthesis, and often, stops photosythesis until levels are adequate enough. As the plants metabolic rate increases, the first limiting factor encountered is the presence of adequate levels of CO2 and THAT is why co2 works. In general, a PPM of 1500 or so (i the peak of flowering) is high enough to ensure that photosynthetic rates are maximized. 

It is this mechanism that dictates you need to have control of PPM levels. If your co2 level is constantly fluctuating then the level of co2 is going to act like a limiting factor is your running the lights and temp to take advantage of it. If your plants are chugging along and then co2 levels drop, they are going to slow or stop until levels increase. This is not an ideal situation and causes stress on some level to the plant. The other side of the coin is that your runing a tank or burner without a ppm controller and PPM's go through the roof (3-4 thousand) and you kill your plants. 
*
Is co2 right for me? *Given our understanding of metabolic rates, you have to ask yourself. Do I have enough light to use co2? and do I have a way to maintain higher temperatures? Lastly, is my room sufficiently sealed to use co2? 

Light: your probably going to want in the area of 60 watts per sq. ft. of HID lighting before you think about co2. It more about par and lux at the canopy level but I would use thee above as a general guideline. I have 40 watts a sq.ft. but I have 3 600's on a rail that allows me to have the lights closer and the rail moves in a manner that the plants are always getting some light. 

Heat: optimal temps when running co2 are 85-90 degrees. Yes, its warm. Yes, the plants are running full speed; but the is exactly the goal. You need to have a way to get the room in that temperature range and keep it there. An AC unit is the easiest way as its a set it and forget it deal which is nice. The other way is to have temperature controlled exhaust fans. 

Sealed room: Obvios-fucking-lee if your room is constantly vented your throwing your co2 away and wasting money. Plants DO NOT NEED "fresh air" they are not international travelers stuck on a public bus in panama with people chain smoking in front of you, chickens screeching behind you, and a steady stream of dust pouring in the windows. They need co2 during the day and oxygen at night. period. 

There are many ways to run a sealed room with AC hoods and odor control. My hood inlet is outside the flower room and exhausts outside. Therefore my hoods are a closed system. I used incense to ensure that the hoods were not leaking and pulling co2 out of the room. It is impossible for smell to be exhausted from the hoods..it is a closed system. I have a carbon filter just sitting in the corner scrubbing the air. no exhaust necessary. It actually works better that way. 


*Make it happen:*
Ok, so you have that shit figured out, you know how to not kill a plant, and you have some extra cash around. How much cash? Its going to take about $800. 

I'm not going to get into the stupid ass ways that some people "produce" co2. If your putting bowls of yeast in your grow room or using co2 buckets or whatever, that's all cool and the gang but that is not what this post is about. This is about spending the money, understanding the system, and doing it right. 

*Things you need:* tank or burner, fuel supply, PPM controller. There are many a PPM controller on the market and none of them are cheap. You want an IR controller that monitors and reads out the exact PPM. They are going to run you around $400. I got my super pimp daddy CAP XGC-1 for $500 on CL. Two paths diverge in the forrest from here: bottles or burner. 

If you have temperature control then GET A BURNER!! Yeah thee bottles are neat and clean and produce no heat but here is the dirty little secret, a bottle lasts about 5-6 days in a small room and they cost is the same as a burner.

For bottles you need: solonoid controlled valve (the CAP one!! b/c it doesn't freeze) $130, and a co2 tank - $160. So your at $290 for a bottle set up. Operating a bottle costs $17 a week plus the gas and time to run your ass to and fro to the welding gas store and having your neighbors hauling co2 tanks in and out and in and out and in and out. Trust me, it gets old really quick. 

For a burner I use a cheap tank-less water heater ($150) and I tapped into the natural gas in my house-$65 pipe and fittings and use a $40 harbor freight sump pump to recirculate water from a 50 gallon barrel (free). The tankless set-up costs me around $15 a month in NG. If you have a gas line in your house I would HIGHLY suggest you use it. NG is dirt cheap compared to propane, you never have to fill a tank, and installing a gas line is not rocket science folks, just google it. You can visit my tankless thread for more info here: https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/410850-well-fuck-n-tankless-water.html If you want to buy a tankless water heater with a "hydro product" sticker on it, add another $300 to the cost. Me..I like to think of myself as a little smarter than that. 

*Ok, you have the shit installed.. now what? *
Fisrt, smoke a blunt and get ready for some cool shit. Watching your PPM meter rise and fall is pretty damn coo stuff. Plus the plants really do go ape shit. I get 2-3" of growth per day during the stretch on indica/sativa hybrids. 

ok, so the default PPM everyone throws around is 1500. Further research on my part uncovered that 1500 is needed during the peak growth phases (flower weeks 3-6) but not all the time. If you have a NG burner its so cheap not to just pump in 1500 then you might as well, can't hurt. If your on bottles then I found the following recommendations as the relate to plant age and metabolism so your not wasting money:

first couple veg weeks: 800-1000
Latter veg: 1000-1100
First couple flower weeks 1200-1300
Mid flower 1500 to 1800
Finish:...see bellow

There is some debate on using co2 in the last two weeks of flower. on one hand, the plants are producing allot of oils and putting on weight so you would think that co2 would be a good thing. However, co2 inhibits the production of ethyelene which promotes fruit maturation. There are several growers that knock down PPM to 400-500 in the final weeks. I know experienced growers who do it both ways. I have been switching strains every grow so really can't tell you definitively. 

*A couple of other general co2 usage notes:*

Co2 is heavier than air and sinks to the floor. This isn't a huge issue but don't place your co2 sensor too high or too low and maintain good air circulation. 

Don't mount your co2 sensor too close to your generator. You want the air and co2 to mix and get a good reading for the whole room. If it is too close, your readings will be higher than they actually are. Mine are mounted on the opposite sides of the room with a fan blowing the co2 towards the sensor.

When adjusting dispersal rates, try to balance between the burner being on for a long time (3-5 min) and burning for a short time and "overshooting" the desired PPM. (the ppm meter will sense 1500 and shut the burner off, but the Co2 will still rise as the co2 "gets too the meter". 

It is important to have good circulation in the canopy. air movement right next to the leaf surface is very minimal. This is called the boundary layer and has to do with friction of the leave surface. If you don't have fans moving the air, the plant can deplete the amount of co2 present in this thin layer next to the leave so make sure their is air exchange going on. ... just don't overdo it. 

Plants will transpire MUCH MORE in high heat and high metabolic environments. Therefore, they will use up much more water and raise the humidity more. compensate by running the dehumidifier more and you hydro folks may want to lower nutrient concentrations a little as the plants will be transporting more water and the nutrient salts that come with them. 

Lastly, I can't overstate the need for a proper PPM controller. There are tables and charts to help you guestimate co2 usage but as those with PPM know, the rate of co2 usage is much faster than you would think and is subject to many many variables that just can't be calculated for. while it won't "hurt" to err on the side of not enough co2, I really advise you to just spend the cash and get a proper system. It eliminates waste and actually makes you money in the long run. (allot more). 

Hope this has been helpful.


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## fishwhistle (Apr 25, 2011)

Great post,thanks.would you recommend a burner run by propane over bottled co2?Any idea how long say a five gallon propane tank would last with a burner?


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## Yeah Right (Apr 25, 2011)

Thanks. I've got a while before I'd even really consider it. Understanding it better is cool as it's another card in my deck for later usage.


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## mrduke (Apr 25, 2011)

fishwhistle said:


> Great post,thanks.would you recommend a burner run by propane over bottled co2?Any idea how long say a five gallon propane tank would last with a burner?


I run almost the same setup as LF he led me down this road and it fuckin straight rocks!! a propane tank lasts me all of 5 weeks then its close to empty so i swap it out for a freshie dont want to run out in the middle of the cycle. 
check out the other thread he linked for tons of info, its got all the questions and answers you need


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## NewGrowth (Apr 25, 2011)

Good post, should add that Natural Gas releases less moisture into the air than propane. The flip side is I believe propane produces more co2 per pound. Split units are the best way to go and air cooled hoods are unnecessary with a good A/C and proper air-flow.
I tend to agree with dropping co2 levels to finish as well. The most noticeable part seemed to be a decrease in scent and flavor. We've started throwing our plants outside for the last week, the cool night air gives them color and the smell and flavor really develop better this way as well. Sealing the room and having a proper controller is key if you are enriching intermittently or using silly yeast products, ect it's just a waste of time.
Keeping the air clean is also necessary we use UVC systems in the split units and a recirculating carbon scrubber.


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## benny blanco (Apr 26, 2011)

$800 wtf? I got a 50lb tank and regulator for 350. And I think they max out at 1500ppm. You could co2 poison them


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## mrduke (Apr 26, 2011)

benny blanco said:


> $800 wtf? I got a 50lb tank and regulator for 350. And I think they max out at 1500ppm. You could co2 poison them


And i think they max at 1500????? thats what hes talking about you dont know unless you have a monitor. And how often are you cycling it on/off?does it stay between 12-1500 or drop down to like 400 before being released again???


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## benny blanco (Apr 26, 2011)

I turn it off when my lights go off. My regulator pumps out @ a ppm I set @. He said he sets his midflower 1500-1800 buddy


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## soulglow (Apr 26, 2011)

good post, and if you get the Co2 ppm controller then it is 800 but really dont need it, i have never had one i have always used this site and account for leaks http://www.hydroponics.net/learn/co2_calculator.asp


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## benny blanco (Apr 26, 2011)

I don't use a monitor though


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## mrduke (Apr 26, 2011)

If you dont use a monitor your not in control of you co2 your just guessing and hoping that some generic calculator is kinda right for your spacific situation, every grow/room is different no way can a calculator be acurate for everyone. Without having a near constant ppm you stress the plants by haveing them photosynthise at compleatly different rates due to the range of availible co2, while light and nutes remain constantly high.


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## legallyflying (Apr 26, 2011)

benny blanco said:


> $800 wtf? I got a 50lb tank and regulator for 350. And I think they max out at 1500ppm. You could co2 poison them


yeah, as the post says around $300 for the tank and regulator and ANOTHER $400 for a proper monitor/controller. Throw in another $50...that's $800. 

People run 1500-1800 all the time. 1500 is the generally accepted point of diminishing returns however. I don't know the exact levels but I believe it was 4k or more before plant tissue damage occurs. Doesn't really matter to me as I don't have to worry about that with a controller. 

New growth. I think I'm going to try no suplement in the last two weeks again. Last round I didn't have a whole lot of aroma to the crop. Great size and stone, just no so smelly. I'm also using earth worm castings this round in my hydroton. 

Cheers,
LF


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## growmomma (Apr 26, 2011)

Very informative! Thanks for the info, just got co2 last week! +rep to you


legallyflying said:


> Hey fellow growers, I've been pretty quiet lately just a growing and working. My journals are completed and spring and summer are probably going to me no time to start another journal. At any rate, there seems to be this recurring trend of post after post of how to use co2 so I thought I would purge my knowledge on the subject to help people decide if it right for them....
> 
> *Advantages of co2:* Faster growth, denser growth = more yield. Like big time more. the claims of 40-100% increase in yield are no joke.
> 
> ...


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## NewGrowth (Apr 26, 2011)

I agree with people on the monitoring, if the co2 levels are not near constant the plants don't like it. CAP sells a cheap controller for about $250. It's also nice to have a full climate controller so that you can set fail-safes in case temp or humidity get out of control. If my A/C dies the co2 shuts off and exhaust fans kick on. A properly sealed and enriched room is like a hot rod everything is faster but one small mistake can cause a major crash.
I've not seen any improvement with levels over 1500ppm and it takes VERY high concentrations and time exposure to burn your plants. I run the burner all night sometimes to kill mites. Levels hardly exceed 5000ppm, we saw burn when levels were near 20,000ppm but to even reach that level we had to release a whole tank and run the burner.
If you are not shooting for commercial production I see little need for CO2. Naturally ventilated rooms seem to result in a smaller yield but the buds develop a better aroma and taste. When running a perpetual system it's not a option to cut co2 levels because only a few plants are finishing at a time.
Let me know how cutting down your co2 works LF, putting them outside for a week was night and day for us. If you are able to do that I highly recommend it, something about the outside air and sun does wonders for cannabis.


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## legallyflying (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm hydro guy so no sun for me. Plus I'm in oregon and there is never any fucking sun here. I spent a whole evening looking for the info on the connection between eleevated co2 and oil production/ maturation but all I came up with was a bunch of opinions.  I thought for sure it was the co2 that was killing my aroma but my friend came over with a nug of headband that was grown with a full course of co2 and no curing and I could smell him as soon as he walked in the door. Perhaps like most things it is tied to genetics.


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## TruenoAE86coupe (Apr 26, 2011)

I agree with the genetics.... those determine more than anything else.
Is there an ideal ppm to run in a perpetual harvest situation? Obviously this will just be opinion but i would like to know your thoughts. I was thinking probably in the 1100-1400 range.


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## NewGrowth (Apr 26, 2011)

I agree with genetics, stuff still smells great don't get me wrong. Just need to grow the same strain under the same light one with and one without co2 enrichment. Then do a BRIX test to check sugar content, a GS screen to compare THC and other cannabaniods would be interesting as well. The only other info I've got is regarding tomatoes :/


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## legallyflying (Apr 28, 2011)

Is there anything that shows taht too high of light intensity will negatively effect oil production?


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## boomdawg (May 6, 2011)

Hey thanks again LF for the research. My system is coming together and my tankless lpg burner will be here Tu. 
I got a CO2 question or two and I hope it hasnt been answered and that I missed it?

Heres my sealed set up. 8x10 flower room which is scrubbed to 3x10 adjacent veg area and then the air goes to the AC unit and back to flower room/all air sealed. Since I am not venting or taking in air from outside the sealed rooms and co2 dont hurt plants in veg, do I gas the whole system (flower and veg room), or just flower room? Do I keep all the air transfer fans from flower to veg and back on all the time or should I set the flower room exhaust/intake fan on a 30 minute timer for co2 purposes? As I am using a tankless water heater like you (which I will post up later) so I am not concerned of CO2 waste.
Thanks man


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## legallyflying (May 19, 2011)

Thought I would post an update. I'm in the last couple weeks right now and I have shut the co2 off and lowered the temperature. The plants do seem to be maturing faster but in terms of oil production I can't really tell a difference yet.


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## NewGrowth (May 19, 2011)

Thanks for the update LF, It snowed here last night! As far as your light intensity question I'm not sure but from my experience it does not. I've got vertical bulbs and the leaves tend to fry if there is no air flow around the plants but the buds stay super sticky (unless you totally fry the plant).


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## legallyflying (May 19, 2011)

Thanks for the input. I wonder if it is more strain dependent? My last round of Jack herrer got totally heat stressed even though temps were never above 85 running co2? The buds were huge but they got hella "strung out".. when they dried...they looked like shit  

This time around it seemed like the plants that are on the fringe look a little more frostier. ?


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## mccumcumber (May 19, 2011)

Hmm, were they heat stressed or light stressed? 85 with C02 sounds extremely ideal to me.
I don't know how useful 1800+ppms would be for a plant because once you pass 1500 ppms there are limiting reagents other than C02 that are not and cannot be met in photosynthesis.
The damaging point for plants however is near 4000 ppms, so you're not really doing any damaging, you could just be wasting money. 
Also, I'm not too sure that C02 makes a plant grow faster... rather, it just makes more growth occur in the allotted time period. A 8 week flowering strain will take 8 weeks to flower regardless of climate... at least that's how it's worked for me in the past. Maybe I'm over-ripening my plants, but hey... more cbd for me!


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## legallyflying (May 19, 2011)

Well they didn't look light stressed to me. No bleaching or anything. Light meter readings were in the 80,000 lux range so that is not super duper extreme or anything. I dunno, they just looked like shit. Yeah, co2 won't make them mature faster but it seems at times that it can actually slow things down a bit. Perhaps its just me. This last run looked great but the JH was fluffy as fuck and they took forever to mature.


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## NewGrowth (May 19, 2011)

My light intensity is extreme with vertical lighting without fans the leaves fry. I think stuff in the CO2 produces more resin, the buds look candy coated as oppossed to really covered with naturally aspirated rooms. Density might also play a factor here too. Heat stress will just screw everything I had a terrible run like that myself.


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## legallyflying (May 19, 2011)

Well I'm trying to put my finger on why I just don't have that danky dank smell. It could just be the strains I'm running as they were all from medical clones. (thank god I just cloned 5 new strains all from seed that i started). I currently have some endless sky that has big buds bud virtually no smell and chrystals. In the same room and same nute schedule however I have some super lemon haze that is truly wicked looking bud. Its in week 6 of 12 and it looks incredible. 

I am running beneficials, have added allot of organic compost type tea and have also been adding a little molasses to the rez as well. You know, now that I think of it, I did use snowstorm as a foliar treatment last run...maybe that is what fuckered things up?


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## mrmatt (May 19, 2011)

So if you "close" off the room, whats the best type of air conditioner to use? Im just trying to figure out how to get around the whole exhaust thing... i have a portable a/c but i have to vent it out of the room, which would waste all the precious Co2. Help me out guys! how can i solve this problem? I want to have a "closed" environment.


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## NewGrowth (May 19, 2011)

You need to invest in a split unit compressor outside the room with refrigerant lines running to a condenser unit inside. It's also necessary to scrub the room air or exhaust it and replace with fresh at least one a day.


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## legallyflying (May 20, 2011)

Never heard of exhausting the whole room out once a night. I'm not sure why you would need to do this as you are supplying the co2 to them for growth and there will always be enough oxygen in there for nighttime respiration to occur. 1500PPM is only a .5% concentration of co2. I do run a scrubber however so my house doesn't smell like....well it smells like I'm growing weed in the basement. 

The split ac unit is the abosolute best way to go. Not only is there no air exchange and they take up next to no space, they are far and away the most efficient AC unit. The portable units are the least efficient. Right now I just have a window AC mounted in the wall of the flower room and it just exhausts into the basement. Which is fine in the winter as it heats the basement quite nicely but in the summer... lets just say I have been looking at AC units. The cost of a split AC is around $1,000 to $1,500 for the name brand ones. 

The great thing about the split units is the condensor mounts outside the house and the coolant lines run to the wall units (which are tiny). The unit I am going to get is going to have dual wall units so one for the grow room and one for my bedroom cause I hate sleeping when its hot out.


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## TruenoAE86coupe (May 20, 2011)

The issue i see with a split AC is the fact that you must have it installed (or at very least charged) professionally, as you cannot buy refrigerant unless you are licensed.


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## legallyflying (May 22, 2011)

They have several models with pre-charged lines.


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## Aaric7546 (May 23, 2011)

* Great post,thanks.would you recommend a burner run by propane over bottled co2?Any idea how long say a five gallon propane tank would last with a burner?
________________________
Solar Power

*


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## cannabis420420 (May 23, 2011)

it seems its worth the hassle of buying co2


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## sixstring2112 (May 23, 2011)

NewGrowth said:


> I agree with people on the monitoring, if the co2 levels are not near constant the plants don't like it. CAP sells a cheap controller for about $250. It's also nice to have a full climate controller so that you can set fail-safes in case temp or humidity get out of control. If my A/C dies the co2 shuts off and exhaust fans kick on. A properly sealed and enriched room is like a hot rod everything is faster but one small mistake can cause a major crash.
> I've not seen any improvement with levels over 1500ppm and it takes VERY high concentrations and time exposure to burn your plants. I run the burner all night sometimes to kill mites. Levels hardly exceed 5000ppm, we saw burn when levels were near 20,000ppm but to even reach that level we had to release a whole tank and run the burner.
> If you are not shooting for commercial production I see little need for CO2. Naturally ventilated rooms seem to result in a smaller yield but the buds develop a better aroma and taste. When running a perpetual system it's not a option to cut co2 levels because only a few plants are finishing at a time.
> Let me know how cutting down your co2 works LF, putting them outside for a week was night and day for us. If you are able to do that I highly recommend it, something about the outside air and sun does wonders for cannabis.


i buy into everything you say except the part about high(4000ppm)levels killing bugs.how would this work on insects when most can just hibernate until the climate is favorable again?they say most bugs will live through a nuclear war.did you ever have a bad infestation and actually witness the dead bugs,if so did you keep track of them to see if they came back to life?I'm not trying to start shit,i just want to hear from someone else who does this.i had a friend ask me about it when he got mites and i told him to try it but i was sceptical.i had him keep the room at 4000 ppm at night for 3 nights in a row and first he thought it worked,and about a week after that he wanted to know how many doctor doom cans it would take to fog his roomit seemed to me they were just hibernating and came back full force.


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## legallyflying (May 23, 2011)

There seems to be differing opions on the level of co2 necessary to kill bugs. Co2 WILL kill all bugs as it is toxic, its not just the fact that oxygen levels are reduced. Grain is stored in super high co2 levels...like 70% co2 which is 700,000 PPM. There are several journal articles out there about co2 concentrations and exposure times to kill various pests. The most usefull article however has units that I can't fucking seem to convert 

10,000 ppm is the number I have heard thrown around quite a bit. Some people swear by it. My monitor only reads to 5k. I have gased spider mites before and had mixed success. Again, my rates might not have been high enough. Spider mites and aphids don'[t need a whole lot of co2 to kill them. Fungus knats however need dangerous levels.. Levels that I would not want in my basement...like 100,000 ppm. 

in terms of bottled over burner... I HIGHLY recommend you get a burner. A tank only lasts a week at best in a small sealed room and runnning back and fortha nd back and forth to get bottles is a REAL pain in the ass. This is not to mention that bottled co2 is 600% more expensive than propane, or even better NG generated co2. Check out my tankless water heater thread,,,


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## ShadesOfBlue (May 24, 2011)

From what I gather, the room should be sealed for co2 to be effective. However, I am planning a large room with several 1000 hps lights. It's gonna be HOT in there. How can I keep the temperature from spiralling out of control unless I have massive fans/ducts to cool the lights and vent the hot air out?


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## NewGrowth (May 25, 2011)

Bottles are great for small spaces, they produce no heat. Burners are definitely the way to go if you have a room. I've found that Natural Gas releases less humidity into the air VS Propane. I use an IPM (integrated pest management) system to control mites and CO2 is just one of the ways I control mites. The roaches will testify to the fact that co2 can kill, tend to find a lot of dead bugs after a night of enrichment. It's just a way for me to keep the amount of poison sprayed to a minimum.
Here's how my IPM goes:
Veg: alternate spraying of avid and floramite aprox every 30 days all the plants are treated with bannermaxx at this time too.

Flower: depending on mite population plants may get treated the day they are put into flower. After the first week of flower I use CO2 and azadiatrin to keep populations on check.

Recently we had some mites and now we're coming out on the tail end, total eradication takes about 3 weeks with my system.

As far as those pre-charged A/C's I would not recommend them unless you absolutely can not find a cool HVAC guy to set you up. And HVAC company will charge less for the unit and be able to troubleshoot it if there are any problems. Also if you live in a cool climate or plan on running the A/C in outside ambient below 50F, be sure to purchase an "ambient air" unit so you don't fry your compressor and get freezing problems in the winter.


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## legallyflying (May 25, 2011)

ShadesOfBlue said:


> From what I gather, the room should be sealed for co2 to be effective. However, I am planning a large room with several 1000 hps lights. It's gonna be HOT in there. How can I keep the temperature from spiralling out of control unless I have massive fans/ducts to cool the lights and vent the hot air out?


I think you need to revisit your "plan". If your running several 1000 watt hoods your likely going to need an AC unit with or without AC unless you r grow room is in a cave where the ambient air is a nice consistent 50 degrees. I can attest that if the outside air is above 70, your going to need a fucking jet fan to move enough air to keep you within target temps. 

Vented hoods still put off heat, especially 1000 watt hoods.


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## ShadesOfBlue (May 25, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> I think you need to revisit your "plan". If your running several 1000 watt hoods your likely going to need an AC unit with or without AC unless you r grow room is in a cave where the ambient air is a nice consistent 50 degrees. I can attest that if the outside air is above 70, your going to need a fucking jet fan to move enough air to keep you within target temps.
> 
> Vented hoods still put off heat, especially 1000 watt hoods.


Okay. I guess I will have to buy an AC unit then. Any recommendations? If I get someone to install a massive AC unit in the room will that keep it "sealed" so that I can still run co2?

I'm sorry but I have literally zero knowledge of heat control - if you can fill me in or direct me to a better resource it would be much appreciated. I. have no idea what I'm talking about.


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## ShadesOfBlue (May 25, 2011)

So I called a few places and they said I need a ductless ac unit. I'm guessing this is what you guys were referring to with the "split unit." The compressor will go on the roof and cables will connect it to the unit within my space. The cost including installation will be around $5,000. Damn. Haha shit ain't cheap.


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## BeaverHuntr (May 25, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> There seems to be differing opions on the level of co2 necessary to kill bugs. Co2 WILL kill all bugs as it is toxic, its not just the fact that oxygen levels are reduced. Grain is stored in super high co2 levels...like 70% co2 which is 700,000 PPM. There are several journal articles out there about co2 concentrations and exposure times to kill various pests. The most usefull article however has units that I can't fucking seem to convert
> 
> 10,000 ppm is the number I have heard thrown around quite a bit. Some people swear by it. My monitor only reads to 5k. I have gased spider mites before and had mixed success. Again, my rates might not have been high enough. Spider mites and aphids don'[t need a whole lot of co2 to kill them. Fungus knats however need dangerous levels.. Levels that I would not want in my basement...like 100,000 ppm.
> 
> in terms of bottled over burner... I HIGHLY recommend you get a burner. A tank only lasts a week at best in a small sealed room and runnning back and fortha nd back and forth to get bottles is a REAL pain in the ass. This is not to mention that bottled co2 is 600% more expensive than propane, or even better NG generated co2. Check out my tankless water heater thread,,,



very true 10,000 PPM is what I was told will kill all pests in your sealed environment.


----------



## BeaverHuntr (May 25, 2011)

ShadesOfBlue said:


> So I called a few places and they said I need a ductless ac unit. I'm guessing this is what you guys were referring to with the "split unit." The compressor will go on the roof and cables will connect it to the unit within my space. The cost including installation will be around $5,000. Damn. Haha shit ain't cheap.



Mini Splits are what the are called. Yes they are the best way to get AC. I use the central AC in my home to cool my garden. Its in a spare bedroom and where I live a AC is a must have! You can use the dual hose AC units you will still lose some Co2 but not as much as a single duct portable AC.


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## ShadesOfBlue (May 25, 2011)

BeaverHuntr said:


> Mini Splits are what the are called. Yes they are the best way to get AC. I use the central AC in my home to cool my garden. Its in a spare bedroom and where I live a AC is a must have! You can use the dual hose AC units you will still lose some Co2 but not as much as a single duct portable AC.


What is a dual hose? The guy i talked to at the AC place said i should be looking at ductless units.


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## malignant (May 25, 2011)

if your using a hydro system w/out co2 you might be wasting your nutes...


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## BeaverHuntr (May 25, 2011)

ShadesOfBlue said:


> What is a dual hose? The guy i talked to at the AC place said i should be looking at ductless units.



Portable AC's made just for growing. A regular portable AC has a single hose that exhausts hot air out of the room or house you are trying to cool. Hydro Farm makes a dual exhaust AC that is built for growing. They run about 400-500 bucks ..You will still lose some co2 but not as much as a single hose portable AC..


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## BeaverHuntr (May 25, 2011)

malignant said:


> if your using a hydro system w/out co2 you might be wasting your nutes...



Not true, lots of people grow without C02 with great success and good yields. Co2 just helps increase resin production .


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## legallyflying (May 26, 2011)

BeaverHuntr said:


> Not true, lots of people grow without C02 with great success and good yields. Co2 just helps increase resin production .


In my experience, co2 does NOTHING to increase resin production. In fact, it can be detrimental to resin production in the end of the cycle. Co2 has doubled the size of my buds, easily.


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## BeaverHuntr (May 26, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> In my experience, co2 does NOTHING to increase resin production. In fact, it can be detrimental to resin production in the end of the cycle. Co2 has doubled the size of my buds, easily.


I wont doubt you, you know more than me and I feel comfortable admitting that !


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## guy incognito (May 27, 2011)

NewGrowth said:


> Bottles are great for small spaces, they produce no heat. Burners are definitely the way to go if you have a room. I've found that Natural Gas releases less humidity into the air VS Propane. I use an IPM (integrated pest management) system to control mites and CO2 is just one of the ways I control mites. The roaches will testify to the fact that co2 can kill, tend to find a lot of dead bugs after a night of enrichment. It's just a way for me to keep the amount of poison sprayed to a minimum.
> Here's how my IPM goes:
> Veg: alternate spraying of avid and floramite aprox every 30 days all the plants are treated with bannermaxx at this time too.
> 
> ...


I think you have that backwards. Natural gas is made of mostly methane, CH4. Propane is C3H8. They both combine with ambient O2 to produce CO2 and H2O.

Natural gas:

CH4 + 2 O2 = CO2 + 2 H2O

So every molecule of CO2 you produce produces 2 molecules of H2O

Propane:

C3H8 + 5 O2 = 3 CO2 + 4 H2O

So every molecule of CO2 you produce you make 4/3 of a molecule of H2O

Natural gas combustion produces more H2O per unit of CO2 than propane does.


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## NewGrowth (May 27, 2011)

So 100,000 BTU worth of propane with the BTU measurement being
taken before condensation produces 8.21 pounds of water. If the
water is allowed to condense before measuring the BTU, you only
get 7.53 pounds of water. You burn more natural gas for the same level of CO2 enrichment vs. Propane if you would like I can post all the equations that show molar weight, ect. So you are exactly right, thanks for the correction.


Likewise, 100,000 BTU pre-condensation BTU of methane produces 10.4
pounds of water, while that many post-condensation BTU produces
9.41 pounds of water.


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## malignant (May 28, 2011)

BeaverHuntr said:


> Not true, lots of people grow without C02 with great success and good yields. Co2 just helps increase resin production .


after a certain point its not possible for the plants to uptake everything available without co2 enrichment. and it helps alot more than resin production, do some research, youll find it also drastically increases vegetation. co2 is awesome


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## 08GSXR600 (May 28, 2011)

http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-CO2-Release-Kit.asp


im looking at using one of these.. thoughts?


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## malignant (May 29, 2011)

yeah those are nice! just need a controller or a timer, set it up on a timer so it doses and your fans shut down for 15 min.. i love mine its killer in a 4x4 tent. just try to get two short bottles.. i had 2 shorties, traded for a k tank, and now its a bitch everytime i have to switch it out.. would love to go back to two short bottles in the back of the car rather than friends and a pickup


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## tommyo3000 (May 29, 2011)

ShadesOfBlue said:


> So I called a few places and they said I need a ductless ac unit. I'm guessing this is what you guys were referring to with the "split unit." The compressor will go on the roof and cables will connect it to the unit within my space. The cost including installation will be around $5,000. Damn. Haha shit ain't cheap.


kingersons.com for ductless split a/c

if you live in an area where it gets COLD out, you need an a/c with "low ambient" operation -- meaning it works when the ambient temps are from 60 down to the 30s.

You can get a pre-chared freon line for most of these so that you can do the install yourself.
3,500btus per uncooled 1000watt light is what you want


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## legallyflying (Jun 23, 2011)

bumping this based on a recent mail message asking q's about co2.


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## legallyflying (Oct 8, 2011)

Bump for 420foreman


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## statgreen (Dec 21, 2012)

Replying so I can find the post. Thanks legallyflying.


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## guy incognito (Dec 22, 2012)

statgreen said:


> Replying so I can find the post. Thanks legallyflying.


At the top of this thread you can click on "thread tools" -> "subscribe to this thread"

Then when you click on "my rollitup" at the very top right it will bring up all the subscribed threads with new posts. If it doesn't have a new post you can click on the button that says "view all subscribed threads" and it will show all threads you have subscribed too.

Great way to keep track of important threads you haven't been able to read entirely or for ones you just want to keep for future reference.


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## DukeOfDenver (Dec 22, 2012)

What I am doing until I can get a better setup is a vinegar / baking soda fast reactor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxKXiB25Wvc After my lights have been on for over an hour I attach the hose to a oscillating fan, shut off my exhaust and intake fans to heat the tent then zip er up. I use about 7 large baking soda charges and wait about a half an hour before I turn back on my exhaust/intake system. I can see the tent sides growing out while I blast. I do this once a day (yes a shit load of work). Hopefully I'm not a dumb ass and this will be good enough for now. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## elcompadre (Dec 23, 2012)

I've seen random replies/opinions, about turning fans off when running co2. My question is when running a burner, is it recommended to turn wall-mount fans off, as well as carbon filter/inline fan? (carbon filter just has inline fan on top of it blowing at the ceiling no ducting)

100% sealed room... no environment controller. So fans, ac, lights, carbon filter/inline, all are plugged into individual sockets and timers... which would make it pretty tedious to turn fans off. 

or is it chill to just have the burner set up doing its thing turning on and off, while the rest of the room still operates.


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## legallyflying (Dec 23, 2012)

I think people are talking about turning off exhaust fans while burning co2. 

YOu actually want to have your fans running full blast when burning co2. Mainly to distribute the co2 evenly around the room. I ahve me co2 controller on the opposite side of the room from where the burner is so it takes a little time for the co2 to "get over" to the burner so to speak. There is always a little overshoot. Meaning that when my controller hits 1500, the burner shuts off, but then co2 keeps climbing to around 1690 or so. This is called "overshoot: and it is a function of how high you have your burner set...(how fast it generates co2). You can compensate by turning your burner down or lowering the PPM shut off #. 

You also want to make sure that air is suffuciently moving around the room to refresh the air on the surface of the leaves..

cool? cool.


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## treeharvest (Dec 26, 2012)

I seem to be missing part of the scoop lol. 
I have legallyflyings tankless set up. Mad props to him by the way!!! I was using tanks and never having to fill one of those again is priceless!

My question is about the proper organic nute load with CO2 at 1300 ppm, temp 84, humidity @60. 
Im having a recurring problem with fade at week 5 with my favorite10 weeker. I do not have this problem when running naturally aspirated lol.

Could any of you shed some light on nutrient use and CO2 enrichment.


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## oceangreen (Dec 26, 2012)

i agree, great read..

BUT ONE THING..

Having a sealed room, will JACK your humidity levels at lights off...

In addition, you co2 levels at lightofff will be detrimental to your plants even if your genrator is timed to be off at night, becuase you plants a dissapating alot off co2.

SO you need a vent to be run at lights off, to regualte humidity, and co2 levels...

Semi seald is the way to go. Sealed during lgihts on, and vented during lgihts off.. having nice a carbon fitler/inline fan combo,,, and you are good to go...


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## BeaverHuntr (Dec 26, 2012)

elcompadre said:


> I've seen random replies/opinions, about turning fans off when running co2. My question is when running a burner, is it recommended to turn wall-mount fans off, as well as carbon filter/inline fan? (carbon filter just has inline fan on top of it blowing at the ceiling no ducting)
> 
> 100% sealed room... no environment controller. So fans, ac, lights, carbon filter/inline, all are plugged into individual sockets and timers... which would make it pretty tedious to turn fans off.
> 
> or is it chill to just have the burner set up doing its thing turning on and off, while the rest of the room still operates.


I run a sealed room and you dont need to turn your fans off at all..My carbon scrubber stays running 24/7 on the floor. Co2 id heavier than air so it always sinks down to the floor. As long as you arent exhausting any air out your room ( air cooled hoods are fine as long as you make sure everything is tight and glass is secured properly )


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## BeaverHuntr (Dec 26, 2012)

treeharvest said:


> I seem to be missing part of the scoop lol.
> I have legallyflyings tankless set up. Mad props to him by the way!!! I was using tanks and never having to fill one of those again is priceless!
> 
> My question is about the proper organic nute load with CO2 at 1300 ppm, temp 84, humidity @60.
> ...


Using co2 @ 1300-1500 PPM increases photosynthesis so your plant is eating a lot more. I was a hydro grower for several years before trying out organics and soil, on my first soil/organic run I noticed "the fading " a lot sooner than I did in hydro or with bottle nutes.


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## treeharvest (Dec 26, 2012)

Thanks!
Im using subs super soil and aact tea. Guess I just need to dial in my dirt for the CO2.

I have looked all over for info on nute use and CO2, and haven't came up with much other than hydro guys need to back off on there ec a bit. 

How did you solve your early fade with organics?


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## legallyflying (Dec 27, 2012)

Well my question would be 1300ppm of what? I always add a little more nitrogen at the first sign of fade. I also run full on veg nutes the first week after the flip. They are just gobbling shit up at that time. Week two is probably 70 flower 30 veg nutes. They plants just go ape shit with the co2 an higher temps. 

I run a dehu 24/7 set to 65% humidity. The last two weeks I lower it to 40 but only get down to maybe 50. I also lower the temps to high 70's and run 600 ppm of co2. 

Careful with the mixture of low humidity and strong nutes, you will! Burn your babies


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## guy incognito (Dec 27, 2012)

oceangreen said:


> i agree, great read..
> 
> BUT ONE THING..
> 
> ...


Unless you have a dehumidifier in your sealed room.

And why is co2 levels at night bad for the plant? During lights off plants use oxygen and expell co2, but as far as I know elevated levels (no higher than regular levels during the day) won't harm the plants.

My co2 generator turns off at lights off. My dehumidifier keeps the humidity under control.


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## legallyflying (Dec 27, 2012)

guy incognito said:


> And why is co2 levels at night bad for the plant? During lights off plants use oxygen and expell co2, but as far as I know elevated levels (no higher than regular levels during the day) won't harm the plants.


Exactly what I thought. I think that some people don't realize the composition of air in terms of the actual levels of oxygen, nitrogen and co2. Plants only need a small fraction of the total amount of o2 in the air. In addition, if you are increasing photosynthesis and transpiration rates by supplementing co2 you are also going to increase the amount of o2 in the sealed room as this is a byproduct of those reactions. 

This is the polite way of saying that venting your room at night is only necessary if your trying to induce more mold, fungus spores, and insects into your grow room. 

My plants are quite happy with the door shut and the HEPA filter running.


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## BeaverHuntr (Dec 27, 2012)

treeharvest said:


> Thanks!
> Im using subs super soil and aact tea. Guess I just need to dial in my dirt for the CO2.
> 
> I have looked all over for info on nute use and CO2, and haven't came up with much other than hydro guys need to back off on there ec a bit.
> ...


I havent got there yet lol. I was a hydro grower for about 5 years and just barely got into soil/organics so I've only had one harvest using super soil. Co2 enrichment is supposed to speed up your finishing time.


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## BeaverHuntr (Dec 27, 2012)

guy incognito said:


> Unless you have a dehumidifier in your sealed room.
> 
> And why is co2 levels at night bad for the plant? During lights off plants use oxygen and expell co2, but as far as I know elevated levels (no higher than regular levels during the day) won't harm the plants.
> 
> My co2 generator turns off at lights off. My dehumidifier keeps the humidity under control.


Co2 levels at night arent bad they just dont do anything, you are just wasting co2. The plant will not take in any co2 without the sun/ hps.


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## BeaverHuntr (Dec 27, 2012)

legallyflying said:


> Exactly what I thought. I think that some people don't realize the composition of air in terms of the actual levels of oxygen, nitrogen and co2. Plants only need a small fraction of the total amount of o2 in the air. In addition, if you are increasing photosynthesis and transpiration rates by supplementing co2 you are also going to increase the amount of o2 in the sealed room as this is a byproduct of those reactions.
> 
> This is the polite way of saying that venting your room at night is only necessary if your trying to induce more mold, fungus spores, and insects into your grow room.
> 
> ...


Yeah I never exhaust my sealed room I live in Phoenix so it's so dry here my flower room is always 40%-45% humidity. Plants use co2 and HPS and make fresh oxygen , AC brings in new air when needed and the scrubber stays running on the floor 24/7 scrubbing what ever stale air is in the room.


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## treeharvest (Dec 27, 2012)

BeaverHuntr said:


> I havent got there yet lol. I was a hydro grower for about 5 years and just barely got into soil/organics so I've only had one harvest using super soil. Co2 enrichment is supposed to speed up your finishing time.


Lol ive been in ss for quite sometime, I reamend and reuse soil also and have great results.
I just also got my room dialed into the point I thought I was ready for CO2. But Im Half way done with my second run with CO2 and I can see that they burn threw the nitrogen in subs mix to soon. Even with my early fade it looks that im still above my norm avg though.


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## NavySEALsVet (Dec 27, 2012)

Dry ice dry ice and dry ice I keep it old school like my father in the 80s and I get chunks of top shelf bud ill stick to the old school way thank you.


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## legallyflying (Dec 27, 2012)

LMAO. Yeah, keeping running to the store to buy dry ice.


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## guy incognito (Dec 29, 2012)

BeaverHuntr said:


> Co2 levels at night arent bad they just dont do anything, you are just wasting co2. The plant will not take in any co2 without the sun/ hps.


But if the co2 shuts off then you aren't wasting anymore than you would by venting it at lights off. It's just residual co2 that will be there when the lights come back on.


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## legallyflying (Dec 29, 2012)

Flogging a dead horse, but yeah, co2 levels at night mean nothing. Co2 rises in a sealed room regardless as the plants produce co2 through respiration at night.  My burner is slowly dying on me. First the water pressure disk went bad, then the gas valve was sticking, now the ignition system is not working...could just be the batteries


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## treeharvest (Dec 29, 2012)

How long do the burners generally last?


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## legallyflying (Dec 30, 2012)

Well mine is like a year and a half old. The pressure disc was a "poor design" so the guy replaced it for free. Plus I was running water that was pretty hot already which he said was not good for it. The gas solenoid just needed to be wiped clean. (Even though it wasn't dirty.?). I'm going to try new batteries and see if that helps anything. They are pretty simple really they should last about 4 years or so. But you know how everything is made now..cheap as shit. Spent $1,000 on a front load washer and the door handle broke off lat week


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## tooteefrootee (Jan 3, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Hey fellow growers, I've been pretty quiet lately just a growing and working. My journals are completed and spring and summer are probably going to me no time to start another journal. At any rate, there seems to be this recurring trend of post after post of how to use co2 so I thought I would purge my knowledge on the subject to help people decide if it right for them....
> 
> *Advantages of co2:* Faster growth, denser growth = more yield. Like big time more. the claims of 40-100% increase in yield are no joke.
> 
> ...


fellas, you can't get much better than this on a post, this is someone who doesn't screw around obviously and probably spent quite a bit of time to educate themselves completely on the subject, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY have the kindness to share it with us and spend more time to type out that wonderful tip for those of us who are about to enter co2 usage in our grow spaces. 

legally flying that was a great educational post and i think it should be made into a sticky it was packed with great information, thanks for taking the time to do this post for us. I too am about to get into co2, i am not a novice grower by any means just want to go to the next level and your post was an awesome, one stop shop for me to have a good understanding of plant and metabolic reactions and they make all the sense in the world, the burner setup (you just saved me hundreds thank you), my room is already sealed and ready, thank you thank you! make this a sticky!


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## tooteefrootee (Jan 3, 2013)

NavySEALsVet said:


> Dry ice dry ice and dry ice I keep it old school like my father in the 80s and I get chunks of top shelf bud ill stick to the old school way thank you.


lol i was actually contemplating this till i get my system setup. just have to be careful with it!


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## employedmale (Jan 11, 2013)

BeaverHuntr said:


> Not true, lots of people grow without C02 with great success and good yields. Co2 just helps increase resin production .


Why would you write this? Of course you can grow without it, but it maximizes growth, every aspect of it during light cycle. It doesn't matter which element is limiting your grow, they all will slow growth if they are in short supple. You can run a 1000watts in a 16 square foot area and it will do great until the CO2 drops and the light energy goes to waste. It's a matter of suppling the elements of photosynthesis at proportional rates so no one element is there in overabundance, and wasted. Some of you guys think this shit is magic. Some of you guys share all this awesome knowledge, like *legallyflying*, only to get arguments from ignoramuses who've had modest success.

Try digesting the science instead of all that sperm.


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## legallyflying (Jan 12, 2013)

A fucking men. You'll notice that this thread is pretty old and I rarely start threads like this anymore. Started a "air stone test" thread..what a nightmare, fucking thing got drug up to the top the other day. 

I really should just learn to ignore those people but for some reason it is just hard.


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## Pablito113 (Feb 17, 2013)

All good stuff. No question it takes money to make money. BUT!!! You knew that was coming right.....my water heater and my clothes drier both use the in house N.G. the exhaust all goes up the chimney. Is it worth it for me to try and capture some of that?


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## thecoolman (Feb 17, 2013)

How would you recomend running co2 in a 2 room perpetual set up. I hear it is not good in late bloom.


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## JoeJoint (Feb 17, 2013)

Shouldn't this thread be STICKY-ED ??


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## legallyflying (Feb 18, 2013)

Probably given how much misunderstanding there is on CO2 

Are there even moderators on this site? I don't think I have ever seen a mod post


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## Mellowman2112 (Mar 29, 2013)

I had an idea for in the winter, if your wanting lower temps how about running a closed loop from the outside through the room and back out, the metallic accordian ducting will allow alot of the cold air to radiate into the room cooling it. A cheap experiment to try. Just as the lights are a closed system and make things much warmer. This should help prevent the necessity for aircon in the winter.


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## legallyflying (Mar 29, 2013)

How does that have anything to do with Co2. Besides it won't work. The volume of air compared to the surface area is too large. 

And besides, cold pipe on warm environment equals dripping mess.


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## legallyflying (Jun 10, 2013)

Just re-read this post from a long time ago. If this shouldn't be a sticky..I don't know what the fuck should be. Ohh yeah..uncle bens topping technique. Wow! Top your plants! Amazingly insightful


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## MediToker (Aug 28, 2014)

Bought myself a C.A.P. Gen-1 on CL but now I wanna put another brass burner or two on it. It has the capability to hold and run 4 such burners but comes with only one. Google for this or C.A.P. parts in general yields nothing. Any bright ideas gang, on where I can get a couple of these parts / accessories? I'd rather have it run hotter than run longer, I think. Thanks for reading.


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## Aeroknow (Aug 28, 2014)

MediToker said:


> Bought myself a C.A.P. Gen-1 on CL but now I wanna put another brass burner or two on it. It has the capability to hold and run 4 such burners but comes with only one. Google for this or C.A.P. parts in general yields nothing. Any bright ideas gang, on where I can get a couple of these parts / accessories? I'd rather have it run hotter than run longer, I think. Thanks for reading.


Maybe email hydrofarm?
It appears this place still has ones for Natural gas in stock:
http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/itemdesc.asp?ic=ACO2CGEN1NG


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## MediToker (Aug 29, 2014)

Aeroknow said:


> Maybe email hydrofarm?
> It appears this place still has ones for Natural gas in stock:
> http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/itemdesc.asp?ic=ACO2CGEN1NG


 Thanks, Aero. I'm on it.


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## Red1966 (Aug 29, 2014)

benny blanco said:


> I don't use a monitor though


So you really have no idea what your co2 levels are?


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## regretsHD (Aug 30, 2014)

Running a closed system in cooler temps is all good but what do we do in the hotter summer months? A room I visit runs an in room a/c unit through warmer months which blows out a not insignificant amount of hot air from the flowering room constantly during lights on. How could you possibly avoid this and is it even feasible to run co2 in a room that also runs A/C?


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## The Nine (Nov 12, 2015)

legallyflying said:


> Just re-read this post from a long time ago. If this shouldn't be a sticky..I don't know what the fuck should be. Ohh yeah..uncle bens topping technique. Wow! Top your plants! Amazingly insightful


Sorry to bother you LF but I have searched for that thread by uncle Ben and I cannot find it. 
If you know where it is could you post a link please?
Don't mean to hijack your excellent (now classic) thread.


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## Aeroknow (Nov 13, 2015)

The Nine said:


> Sorry to bother you LF but I have searched for that thread by uncle Ben and I cannot find it.
> If you know where it is could you post a link please?
> Don't mean to hijack your excellent (now classic) thread.


http://rollitup.org/t/uncle-bens-topping-technique-to-get-2-or-4-main-colas.151706/


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## hotrodharley (Nov 13, 2015)

The Nine said:


> Sorry to bother you LF but I have searched for that thread by uncle Ben and I cannot find it.
> If you know where it is could you post a link please?
> Don't mean to hijack your excellent (now classic) thread.


He just tells you how to pinch them to top. It ain't rocket science. Look up Uncle Ben on RIU. He's around still. Check this out too.

http://www.growweedeasy.com/topping-fiming


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## hotrodharley (Nov 13, 2015)

Aeroknow said:


> http://rollitup.org/t/uncle-bens-topping-technique-to-get-2-or-4-main-colas.151706/


I like Uncle Ben. He's another old coot. This is far from his technique though and is old as the hills.


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## The Nine (Nov 13, 2015)

Aeroknow said:


> http://rollitup.org/t/uncle-bens-topping-technique-to-get-2-or-4-main-colas.151706/


Thank you


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## Aeroknow (Nov 13, 2015)

hotrodharley said:


> I like Uncle Ben. He's another old coot. This is far from his technique though and is old as the hills.


No shit. 
I've been topping plants for more than 25 yrs now. Figured it out on my own. Dude asked for the link, that's what I posted.


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## The Nine (Nov 13, 2015)

hotrodharley said:


> He just tells you how to pinch them to top. It ain't rocket science. Look up Uncle Ben on RIU. He's around still. Check this out too.
> 
> http://www.growweedeasy.com/topping-fiming


Thanks, I always like to read information from well liked posters


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## hotrodharley (Nov 13, 2015)

Aeroknow said:


> No shit.
> I've been topping plants for more than 25 yrs now. Figured it out on my own. Dude asked for the link, that's what I posted.


Been growing since to 60's and it was the first thing I learned from an old hippy back then. I was ecstatic. More buds!!!


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## hotrodharley (Nov 13, 2015)

The Nine said:


> Thanks, I always like to read information from well liked posters


Hit him up. A lot of people here rag on him. He'd like the support.


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## Aeroknow (Nov 13, 2015)

hotrodharley said:


> Been growing since to 60's and it was the first thing I learned from an old hippy back then. I was ecstatic. More buds!!!


Haha. Rite on.
I'm pretty sure my mom knew about it back than too. She was a hippy too. Santa Cruz mountains


hotrodharley said:


> Hit him up. A lot of people here rag on him. He'd like the support.


Just don't read his racist rants in the politics forum


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## hotrodharley (Nov 13, 2015)

Aeroknow said:


> Haha. Rite on.
> I'm pretty sure my mom knew about it back than too. She was a hippy too. Santa Cruz mountains
> 
> Just don't read his racist rants in the politics forum


That's kind of what I was alluding to. He's not real popular there for sure. I'm too old for the racist shit. Life has too many important things that are real.


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## The Nine (Nov 14, 2015)

hotrodharley said:


> Hit him up. A lot of people here rag on him. He'd like the support.


Thank you
I'm reading it now.. 296 thread pages plus links
I maybe sometime ha ha


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## legallyflying (Nov 15, 2015)

Uncle Ben is a jackass who A. Doesn't know shit about modern growing and advances in nutrient science and B doesn't even grow weed anymore.

He is one trick pony and sames the same tired thing time after time. " your just a victim of marketing, you don't need any of that snake oil shit" 

Uh huh. One of us owns a million dollar commercial marijuana operation and one of us is a racist vegetable farmer who once grew weed in texas. 

Just saying.


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## legallyflying (Nov 15, 2015)

Th


regretsHD said:


> Running a closed system in cooler temps is all good but what do we do in the hotter summer months? A room I visit runs an in room a/c unit through warmer months which blows out a not insignificant amount of hot air from the flowering room constantly during lights on. How could you possibly avoid this and is it even feasible to run co2 in a room that also runs A/C?[/QUOTE





regretsHD said:


> Running a closed system in cooler temps is all good but what do we do in the hotter summer months? A room I visit runs an in room a/c unit through warmer months which blows out a not insignificant amount of hot air from the flowering room constantly during lights on. How could you possibly avoid this and is it even feasible to run co2 in a room that also runs A/C?


It's entirely possible to run AC. Sounds like your buddy has a cheap portable AC unit. 

If you don't have AC you can always use bottled co2 but it's a major pain.


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## smoken n strummin (Nov 15, 2015)

legallyflying said:


> Uncle Ben is a jackass who A. Doesn't know shit about modern growing and advances in nutrient science and B doesn't even grow weed anymore.
> 
> He is one trick pony and sames the same tired thing time after time. " your just a victim of marketing, you don't need any of that snake oil shit"
> 
> ...


Ha, first thing I see after being away from the grow scene for more than two years is some ignorant know it all trashing Uncle Ben. Agriculture has been alive for nearly 10,000 years and you think in the last five or ten you got it all figured out like cannabis is some magical plant that grows under different rules than all the others that farmers,like Uncle Ben have been cultivating since the first people on earth cultivated the soil. You just hate him because he has forgotten more about plants than you will ever know. Keep using your expensive snake oil bullshit, but know this. I haven't been on the forums for over two years because last grow, following his methods I grew enough in a 2'x4' tent to last me that long getting high everyday and I still have some of that bad ass weed left. You're a moron legallyflying. Pull your head out of your ass. Texas is capitalized, dumbass.


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## legallyflying (Nov 16, 2015)

^ lmfao. 

I don't think texas deserves to be capitilized. 

That's some seriously funny shit though. Putting the line in about your 2x4 tent.. even better. 

FYI, 35 years ago they didn't even really understand how photosynthesis worked.


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## chuck estevez (Nov 16, 2015)

legallyflying said:


> ^ lmfao.
> 
> I don't think texas deserves to be capitilized.
> 
> ...


 they didn't understand photosynthesis in 1980?


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## ttystikk (Nov 16, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> they didn't understand photosynthesis in 1980?


They STILL don't! And any good plant scientist will readily admit to that fact.


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## ttystikk (Nov 16, 2015)

legallyflying said:


> ^ lmfao.
> 
> I don't think texas deserves to be capitilized.
> 
> ...


Texas needs a good old fashioned dose of French Revolution. They like to murder their prisoners so much, let's start stuffing those death chambers full of tex-ASS (enough caps for ya?!) judges and politicians. Texas is a state built on the philosophy of 'do unto others before they do you'. Everything that's wrong with the American psyche.

Great thread. Shoulda been a sticky!

In your opinion, is there a CO² supplementation level that can be run through the end of flower without losing the smell? I'm trying to come up with a middle of the road level that would aid growth without hurting terpenes. If it can't be done in your opinion, that's valuable information as well.


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## legallyflying (Nov 16, 2015)

Hugh co2 numbers will not supreme smell, well at least in my experience. It can suppress maturation of the buds but this is based on information from the fruit industry. Co2 will supress ethelyn amd ethelyn is what makes fruit mature. 

The bananas in the store? They were picked green, very green, then gased with ethelyn when the needed to be shipped to the store. 

Smell and taste are the results of the terpine profile of the bud. What destroys terpines is intense light and heat. Some are destroyed at as low of temps as 75 degrees.

High co2 near the end is just a waste as the plants are not chugging like they do during veg and the first half of flower. After the flowers bulk up, things really slow down and theor metabolic rate is low enough that the can't take advantage of elevated co2 levels. 

If you want to increase smell then raise the lights in the last week or two before harvest and crank the AC. 

If your in hydro, also turn down water temps to pretty much as low as you can. Cutting water depths in 1/2 is also good if your in dwc. 

We can't raise our lights because we are vertical but we do set the thermostat on the AC to 67, which results in leaf temperatures closest to the bulb to be around 75. 

Harvest before the lights come on, we don't do the whole kill the lights until your done trimming because we harvest the tops and then harvest the lowers about a week to 10 days later.. also.a good idea when you have monster sized plants..

Finally, keep.your drying room cool. We used to run a huge dehu in our drying room. A big Santa fe, but it just cranked out to much god damn heat. Probably because our drying room is encased (walls and ceiling) in 7/8 plywood on the inside and 1/16 steel sheeting on the outside... a little overkill but, if you had 30-40 lbs of buds in your drying room...

Anywho, we installed a small home depot wall banger in the wall (with a steel cage around it  ) and it works perfectly to keep it a nice 70 degrees in there. 

40 percent humidity the first 1-2 days. After chop, then 50 for a 2-3 days then set it and forget it at 60. Takes about 10 days total.


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## smoken n strummin (Nov 16, 2015)

I think it's funny that you have that note on your profile that you don't want any friend requests, like anyone would want to be your friend you ignorant fuck, ignorantflying.


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## Dr. Who (Nov 16, 2015)

legallyflying said:


> Hugh co2 numbers will not supreme smell, well at least in my experience. It can suppress maturation of the buds but this is based on information from the fruit industry. Co2 will supress ethelyn amd ethelyn is what makes fruit mature.
> 
> The bananas in the store? They were picked green, very green, then gased with ethelyn when the needed to be shipped to the store.
> 
> ...


I gotta ask......You mentioned increased dehumidifying during Co2 in bloom use......I wouldn't. 
I mean to run the Co2 you need to.

Run higher temps - 85 to 90 as you said (I like 86-8
When you run the higher temps to make the Co2 effective again. You need to run the RH around 75% to 80% or you risk stomata "closing"/"shrinking" to reduce the effect OF the Co2 by lower RH values.....

There is like a bell curve up in needs of 
Light
Temps
RH
ppm of available Co2

Correct?

Or did I miss something somewhere in this thread..

Not intending to offend or attack but it's what I learned.

Doc


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## ttystikk (Nov 16, 2015)

Dr. Who said:


> I gotta ask......You mentioned increased dehumidifying during Co2 in bloom use......I wouldn't.
> I mean to run the Co2 you need to.
> 
> Run higher temps - 85 to 90 as you said (I like 86-8
> ...


Are you referring to VPD, or vapor pressure differential? Chart;


If it's the reference I remember, he was saying that his nighttime RH levels spiked when he used CO² supplementation. This wasn't because he kept running CO² after dark, it was because of increased plant metabolism and growth.


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## Dr. Who (Nov 16, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Are you referring to VPD, or vapor pressure differential? Chart;
> View attachment 3544452
> 
> If it's the reference I remember, he was saying that his nighttime RH levels spiked when he used CO² supplementation. This wasn't because he kept running CO² after dark, it was because of increased plant metabolism and growth.


 See! I was confused...

The tread started in 2011 and I just skimmed.....

Yup the more they get the more they use......I never really noticed a night time RH problem in my ops though.
Then again I'm running mostly/nothing but - nothing but and nothing but respectively central AC/Heat with programmable controls.....Differing settings for N/D and I simply don't have to monitor ...


Thanks for clearing that up ttytikk!

Doc


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## legallyflying (Nov 16, 2015)

The humidity will always jump when the lights pop off and things start cooLing down.


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## bird mcbride (Nov 21, 2015)

When the lights go out the co2 goes out and the temperature drops to 69-72F in my op.


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## legallyflying (Nov 21, 2015)

We have don't have a problem with lower humidity and closing stomata. Not that I have an electron microscope to see then but 40-50% humidity is no problem at all. Most likely because we are in dwc so there certainly is no shortage of water to drink. It actually allows us to run lower nutrient concentrations because peak flower phase they are drinking around 3-4 gallons a day. On 20 plants and a full 225 gallon rez on Friday will have about 100 gallons on monday morning.


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## TheFuture (Nov 21, 2015)

No matter what you do, if you scale up you will find that the addition of CO2 is responsible for anywhere from 30% to over 120% increase in plant weights at harvest. It all depends on how much you use and if your room is tight enough to keep the CO2 level at the canopy. Then you have to exchange air. So really its all about money and mass quantities of food grade CO2.

I must have CO2. Even if it is a 15 minute a day soak with a pierced aquarium line draped around the canopies. (See: 2L bottle, Airline Tubing, Sugar, and Yeast) It would be silly to not recommend its use.


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## legallyflying (Nov 22, 2015)

food grade co2? I think you need medical grade co2 and that is absolutely a massive waste of money. Plants certainly don't get medical grade co2 outdoors. far from it.


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## Aeroknow (Nov 23, 2015)

Don't forget to flush all that co2 outta the plants at the end



TheFuture said:


> No matter what you do, if you scale up you will find that the addition of CO2 is responsible for anywhere from 30% to over 120% increase in plant weights at harvest. It all depends on how much you use and if your room is tight enough to keep the CO2 level at the canopy. Then you have to exchange air. So really its all about money and mass quantities of food grade CO2.
> 
> I must have CO2. Even if it is a 15 minute a day soak with a pierced aquarium line draped around the canopies. (See: 2L bottle, Airline Tubing, Sugar, and Yeast) It would be silly to not recommend its use.


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## legallyflying (Nov 23, 2015)

Lmao, yeah, we do a big time flush at the end. We even wear scuba gear when harvesting so nobody breathes on the plants.


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## ttystikk (Nov 23, 2015)

legallyflying said:


> Lmao, yeah, we do a big time flush at the end. We even wear scuba gear when harvesting so nobody breathes on the plants.


Swim fins. Can't forget the swim fins. Y'all said you had a pool, right?


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## @Norcali (Nov 29, 2015)

Thanks for the knowledge.. great thread.


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## legallyflying (Dec 1, 2015)

No sweat. Seemed to be sooo much confusion about co2 enrichment just tried to reduce the amount if silly co2 questions. 

Co2 is banging when you use it correctly. How effective are bags of compost, etc?? Who knows. I doubt very effective at all really as my plants absolutely MUNCH down the co2. You would be shocked at how much co2 big plants..and allot of them, actually consume.

Veg room has 60 plants in it right now, about 4 feet tall each. Totally sealed mini splits, 18k watts of light, the burner turns on about every 10 minutes to keep it above 1450.


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