# green or yellow fan leaves at harvest



## JohnDee (Jun 19, 2018)

Hi folks,
Posted in advanced techniques because was hoping for experienced opinions.

This is what I'm thinking about. First there's the old school idea that by allowing a plant to use up it's stored nutrients...then the smoke will be "cleaner" and less harsh.

Versus the opposite idea that posits that having a green fully photosynthesizing plant right up to harvest maximized bud potency and weight.

So I guess if there's a question in all this..it would be: Should I starve my plant of N during flowering.

All opinions will be respected,
JD


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## growingforfun (Jun 19, 2018)

You shouldnt be completly starving your plant, but there should be some yellowing and leaf drop. But there should also still be some green leaf at harvest. Hope this helps


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## Miyagismokes (Jun 19, 2018)

I was taught, backwoods fashion, that accumulations of nute salts (specifically P) in the plant were detrimental to flavor and smoothness.
Combine that with the other backwoods anecdote, that N without P in flower delays finish and increases chance of premature re-veg.
So I was taught to let her scavenge herself for the last few weeks.

Is any of this true? I'm no scientitian, so it feels true, but that's actually all I got.


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## JohnDee (Jun 19, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> I was taught, backwoods fashion, that accumulations of nute salts (specifically P) in the plant were detrimental to flavor and smoothness.
> Combine that with the other backwoods anecdote, that N without P in flower delays finish and increases chance of premature re-veg.
> So I was taught to let her scavenge herself for the last few weeks.
> 
> Is any of this true? I'm no scientitian, so it feels true, but that's actually all I got.




Mr Miyagi...Thank you for opinions backed by backwoods wisdom. Namaste (palms together) Your reasoning seems good to me.

And Growingforfun...I agree, a worthy goal. 

I made this thread in response to a thread I'm participating in. Made me think...

But when we stop feeding N and the plant scavenges mobile nutes from leaves...in the plants eye...isn't that just like feeding N. That's the crux of the argument.
JD


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## Miyagismokes (Jun 19, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> Mr Miyagi...Thank you for opinions backed by backwoods wisdom. Namaste (palms together) Your reasoning seems good to me.
> 
> And Growingforfun...I agree, a worthy goal.
> 
> ...


There's always going to be a certain degree of something or other, but autocannibalism is probably the lowest levels you're gonna get, I would think.
Another element which I've given little credence to is I was taught the scavenging process hastens finish because the nutrients being used are limited, translocated from the leaves instead of roots.
I've heard, but that one feels less right, on the ol' gut meter.


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## Beachwalker (Jun 19, 2018)

growingforfun said:


> You shouldnt be completly starving your plant, but there should be some yellowing and leaf drop. But there should also still be some green leaf at harvest. Hope this helps


^ this is exactly my goal at harvest as well


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## JohnDee (Jun 19, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> There's always going to be a certain degree of something or other, but autocannibalism is probably the lowest levels you're gonna get, I would think.
> Another element which I've given little credence to is I was taught the scavenging process hastens finish because the nutrients being used are limited, translocated from the leaves instead of roots.
> I've heard, but that one feels less right, on the ol' gut meter.


Mr Miyagi,
I think what you are getting at here is that near harvest, the plant goes into a senescence phase...recognizing that...to quote "Blade Runner" it's "time to die". So losing nutrients from leaves is both a symptom and a trigger for harvest?

I like that idea.
JD


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## growingforfun (Jun 19, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> I made this thread in response to a thread I'm participating in. Made me think...
> 
> But when we stop feeding N and the plant scavenges mobile nutes from leaves...in the plants eye...isn't that just like feeding N. That's the crux of the argument.
> JD



In short, no, i dont think its the same. And from my experiance the plant also doesnt think its the same.


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## JohnDee (Jun 19, 2018)

growingforfun said:


> In short, no, i dont think its the same. And from my experiance the plant also doesnt think its the same.


OK...and I think we're making progress here... why doesn't the plant think that it's the same?

Is it because only mobile nutrients are used up (from the leaves)?
JD


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## Boatguy (Jun 19, 2018)

You really want to dig into this you should look at some of Uncle Bens threads to see some heated discussion of the topic.


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## Miyagismokes (Jun 19, 2018)

The biomechanics involved with unfixing nutrients from established vegatation and translocation of nutrients absorbed at the root or leaf aren't quite the same.
If you're hungry, and eat your own finger, I'm pretty sure you'd know where the meat came from, and at no point does an ordinary meal require removal of a finger.

Plants aren't dumb. They're highly advanced biochemical engines.


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## JohnDee (Jun 19, 2018)

Boatguy said:


> You really want to dig into this you should look at some of Uncle Bens threads to see some heated discussion of the topic.


Useful info Boatguy. I remember Uncle Ben. Thanks Dude. 

Basically all my growing career I've believed it's good to allow plants to use up stored nutrients...but recently have noted several alternative theories.
JD


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## growingforfun (Jun 19, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> OK...and I think we're making progress here... why doesn't the plant think that it's the same?
> 
> Is it because only mobile nutrients are used up (from the leaves)?
> JD



Im not super edjamacted, but heres my guess. The nutes the plant has already worked on and saved up are already more ready to use with less byproducted.

So like for people, we can get great energy out of a big ol steak right? So if your workin a job like construction an you eat a big steak for breakfast, drink your coffee, take a dump an goto work, youll be good to go most of the day with some snacks in the mix. You eat that steak for lunch, maybe your on the stinky porta john.
Hope that makes sence.


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## Boatguy (Jun 19, 2018)

I just remember alot of controversy in his threads. But, i think he believed in keeping them as heathly as he could till harvest, and harvesting top, mid, and bottom at diff times.


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## Miyagismokes (Jun 19, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> but recently have noted several alternative theories.


I'd definitely explore those. I do as I was taught, with modifications coming from what's tried and "true" ("didn't fail" isn't exactly a success, per se) by others in my area.
I'm slow to change, but receptive.


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## JohnDee (Jun 19, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> The biomechanics involved with unfixing nutrients from established vegatation and translocation of nutrients absorbed at the root or leaf aren't quite the same.
> If you're hungry, and eat your own finger, I'm pretty sure you'd know where the meat came from, and at no point does an ordinary meal require removal of a finger.
> 
> Plants aren't dumb. They're highly advanced biochemical engines.


I'm really glad that I don't have to eat my own finger. 

I get your point though dude.
JD


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## growingforfun (Jun 19, 2018)

I know the times ive had too much nitrogen or bloom nutes in the mix too late in flower my stuff smelled like hay an was basically a expensive waste of time. Maybe some people can get away with doing it for one reason or another, but for myself the nutes must be tapered off at the end. If ive got dark green leaves when i planned to harvest, im gonna move harvest back.


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## Miyagismokes (Jun 19, 2018)

Boatguy said:


> harvesting top, mid, and bottom at diff times.


Nothing wrong with this, per se
I do the same because different parts get different sun, and taking the primaries opens the sky to the lower stuff.
But there's not much time between the two, really. More of a leisurely harvest than staged.


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## JohnDee (Jun 19, 2018)

growingforfun said:


> I know the times ive had too much nitrogen or bloom nutes in the mix too late in flower my stuff smelled like hay an was basically a expensive waste of time. Maybe some people can get away with doing it for one reason or another, but for myself the nutes must be tapered off at the end. If ive got dark green leaves when i planned to harvest, im gonna move harvest back.


This was exactly my thinking. But one area I need to check out more is how do some of these dudes cure.

I have read that slow drying actually allows the plant to continue metabolizing essentially using up stored nutrients.

But my thinking is that with proper finish (using up stored nutrients)...then you have a head start on drying and curing. With an even smoother product at the end. That is a goal...correct?
JD


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## charface (Jun 19, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> Nothing wrong with this, per se
> I do the same because different parts get different sun, and taking the primaries opens the sky to the lower stuff.
> But there's not much time between the two, really. More of a leisurely harvest than staged.


I've done colas then secondary harvest but for my room to be stalled out waiting for that bottom third just ain't worth it. 
I make hash with that and get up and running again 

But if you have time and desire to do that i see nothing wrong with it


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## Boatguy (Jun 19, 2018)

Production wise it probably doesnt make sense, but for personal stash, small time grower?


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## growingforfun (Jun 19, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> This was exactly my thinking. But one area I need to check out more is how do some of these dudes cure.
> 
> I have read that slow drying actually allows the plant to continue metabolizing essentially using up stored nutrients.
> 
> ...


You should be doing the best cure and the best lead up to harvest possible. I wouldnt say its a good idea to cut corners anywhere.

I agree the plant still has a little life left at chop for a few days, i like to turn off the lights and after about 2 days hang as much of the plant upside down to dry as i can. Pretty hard to do at this point because i scrog. Then dry trim. For me, it give the best smoke. But lots of people have diff opinions on that.


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## Miyagismokes (Jun 19, 2018)

Wet trimming is just not economical, imo.


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## JohnDee (Jun 19, 2018)

growingforfun said:


> You should be doing the best cure and the best lead up to harvest possible. I wouldnt say its a good idea to cut corners anywhere.
> 
> I agree the plant still has a little life left at chop for a few days, i like to turn off the lights and after about 2 days hang as much of the plant upside down to dry as i can. Pretty hard to do at this point because i scrog. Then dry trim. For me, it give the best smoke. But lots of people have diff opinions on that.


Gathering info from which to make/change my advice to noobs as well as my personal growing strategy. You've been helpful.

I like the dry trim idea since it allows for slightly slower drying.
JD


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## JohnDee (Jun 19, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> Wet trimming is just not economical, imo.


Why is that? Just want to understand your reasoning...
JD


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## Miyagismokes (Jun 19, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> Why is that? Just want to understand your reasoning...
> JD


Because I have to spend a bunch of effort setting up trays instead of just hanging sticks. Trays also make weed get flat spots if you don't pay attention to them.


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## JohnDee (Jun 19, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> Because I have to spend a bunch of effort setting up trays instead of just hanging sticks. Trays also make weed get flat spots if you don't pay attention to them.


Ah, marketability. I don't sell so never think about that. I agree with you for different reasons.
Namaste,
JD


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## growingforfun (Jun 19, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> Why is that? Just want to understand your reasoning...
> JD


Generally people who harvest small amounts wet trim. It makes it dry faster obviously, and that lets them smoke or sell it faster. Some claim that a dry trim knocks off more trichs, but i dont think it does at all, provided your not rough on your stuff. I can scrape up as much fallen kief off my table on a wet trim as on a dry trim.


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## charface (Jun 19, 2018)

I use to trim wet and hang because I thought it would look better due to the ease of cutting out stems while the leaf is still perky.

However once I tried dry trimming to slow down the dry I discovered my dry trim looked just as pretty in its own way. The leaf secondary? Leaf cradles the bud and if you are careful you don't
Lose enough thrichs to worry about. 

If you trim over a screen/trim bin its easy to recover what falls

I will never trim wet again.


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## Miyagismokes (Jun 19, 2018)

growingforfun said:


> Generally people who harvest small amounts wet trim. It makes it dry faster obviously, and that lets them smoke or sell it faster. Some claim that a dry trim knocks off more trichs, but i dont think it does at all, provided your not rough on your stuff. I can scrape up as much fallen kief off my table on a wet trim as on a dry trim.


I have less...kief and more "original formula" finger hash


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## growingforfun (Jun 19, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> I have less...kief and more "original formula" finger hash


I never touch the buds with my hands so my fingers generally stay pretty clean. Ill take each branch and clip it into the budlets with a little stem on each as a spot for my fingers, even if its a 1/4 inch of stem its enough to hold. Started doing it this was after watching a old timer trim. For me its the fastest way and keeps my hands from getting sore from holding more weight than nessisary.


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## JohnDee (Jun 19, 2018)

Charface and growingforfun...thanks so much on the trimming info. I'm a big ganja butter guy so anything that I don't know what to do with...goes into the ganja pot for extraction.
JD


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## JohnDee (Jun 19, 2018)

growingforfun said:


> I never touch the buds with my hands so my fingers generally stay pretty clean. Ill take each branch and clip it into the budlets with a little stem on each as a spot for my fingers, even if its a 1/4 inch of stem its enough to hold. Started doing it this was after watching a old timer trim. For me its the fastest way and keeps my hands from getting sore from holding more weight than nessisary.


Trying to visualize this. So bud is essentially in your palm pinching stem with thumb and forefinger. 

I'm wishing I just harvested...so I could try it out.

All this talk...I gotta make a dispensary run and score some bud.
JD


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## growingforfun (Jun 19, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> Trying to visualize this. So bud is essentially in your palm pinching stem with thumb and forefinger.
> 
> I'm wishing I just harvested...so I could try it out.
> 
> ...


No not in my palm, facing out. If i were to trim a bud, my right hand would hold itan palm would be facing down and to the left. Pinching the stem with pointer and thumb, and rotating the bud by slight twisting the branch by spinning it. Lets me work quickly and with minimal effort. I always sit in a firm backed chair at a table. If i sit on a couch or fabric camping chair i trim much slower and end with back pain and shoulder pain.


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## JohnDee (Jun 19, 2018)

growingforfun said:


> No not in my palm, facing out. If i were to trim a bud, my right hand would hold itan palm would be facing down and to the left. Pinching the stem with pointer and thumb, and rotating the bud by slight twisting the branch by spinning it. Lets me work quickly and with minimal effort. I always sit in a firm backed chair at a table. If i sit on a couch or fabric camping chair i trim much slower and end with back pain and shoulder pain.


OK I got it now. I know some people worry about mortgage payment or kid's school...but me I just want to perfect my skills.
JD


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## Somatek (Jun 19, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> If you're hungry, and eat your own finger, I'm pretty sure you'd know where the meat came from, and at no point does an ordinary meal require removal of a finger.
> 
> Plants aren't dumb. They're highly advanced biochemical engines.


The human body does cannibalise itself as we approach death, loss of appetite often & weight loss is very common before people die.

It's not a great comparison because our biology is very different. Look at maples, they communicate through ethylene gas to let one another know the season is ending is over (very rough analogy) and to cannibalise their leaves. Any strain that shows dramatic colour outdoors before harvest is doing the same thing, which tells me they've evolved to grow that way.

I remember in the 90's growers talked about "optimal burn" & they pushed their plants right up to harvest. It was in the late 90' early 2000's that I remember the shift being to push the plant up to the last 2 weeks to maximise weight, then flush heavily for the last 2 so the leaves would be yellowing instead of dark green by harvest. When I got out of growing a decade ago I was seeing people flushing earlier, fading leaves earlier, etc. That seems detrimental to me as creating a dificiency during the peak of flowering just feels wrong.


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## JohnDee (Jun 19, 2018)

Hi Somatek,
Thanks for your post...I liked the historical perspectives. Indeed growing has evolved a lot. I've been at it for many decades.

And while I admit to an affinity toward old school thought...if keeping plants green till the end can be a benefit, I'm all ears.



Somatek said:


> That seems detrimental to me as creating a dificiency during the peak of flowering just feels wrong.


But Soma, it really isn't a "deficiency" at that point. More an end of life issue.
JD


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## Somatek (Jun 19, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> But Soma, it really isn't a "deficiency" at that point. More an end of life issue.
> JD


If we're talking about yellowing in the last 2 weeks I'd agree. That comment was specifically referencing seeing plants yellowing at 3-4 weeks our from harvest, which on a typical 8 week strain is when I'm use to seeing the most growth. 

In my experience a 2 week flush won't effect yields but will increase quality as plants should have enough stored nutrients to keep growing. Anything longer I imagine would increase the chances of decreasing yields by pushing the "reserves" (for lack of a better analogy) too far, creating a deficiency.


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## JohnDee (Jun 19, 2018)

Soma,
Got 'ya I've seen lots of guys do a three week flush and depending on strain and growth medium...I may go along with that. But a month...half the entire flower cycle would definitely cost you in bud weight. I personally only do a week in hydro but am considering implementing a longer flush...hence the thread.
JD


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## Beachwalker (Jun 20, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> Gathering info from which to make/change my advice to noobs as well as my personal growing strategy. You've been helpful.
> 
> I like the dry trim idea since it allows for slightly slower drying.
> JD


It also increases the possibility of mold or mildew in the drying room ? And the more plants the higher the risk. Not slamming it I trim both ways, depending


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## Miyagismokes (Jun 20, 2018)

Beachwalker said:


> It also increases the possibility of mold or mildew in the drying room ? And the more plants the higher the risk. Not slamming it I trim both ways depending on situation, but it does.


The only time I've had a hard time with mold in the drying room is when I couldn't control either temp or humidity.

Dehumidifiers are your best friend.


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## JohnDee (Jun 20, 2018)

Hi Guys,
Miyagi...got my dehydrator all warmed up. It's a matter of readiness. I once sold some bud to a guy...was just put in the jars. Guy didn't burp jars like he should have and the bud molded...and he blamed me. He was a grower and new how to cure. Just got lazy. So I take full responsibility for all my actions, relying on nobody and I want to make sure my actions are correct. Or as Kraftwerk put it: "i'm the operator of my pocket calculator"

Thanks for all the info guys...
JD


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## Miyagismokes (Jun 20, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> burp jars


Methods long abandoned for me...
I'd have a half-ton of glass jars around.

I use oven bags.


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## growingforfun (Jun 20, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> Methods long abandoned for me...
> I'd have a half-ton of glass jars around.
> 
> I use oven bags.


This is def the only way to go. Ive had jars up to 2.5 gallon in the past to cure. Just a pain in the ass. Turkey bags are just so much bettee


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## JohnDee (Jun 20, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> Methods long abandoned for me...
> I'd have a half-ton of glass jars around.
> 
> I use oven bags.


 Indeed some of my procedures are decades old. Def will look into oven bags. Jars are nice because when you aren't drying herb...you can grow mushrooms in them.
JD


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## Zero_OS (Jun 22, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> I'm really glad that I don't have to eat my own finger. JD


It's a good thing you are not John McAfee...


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## Wilksey (Jun 22, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> the old school idea that by allowing a plant to use up it's stored nutrients.


Is pants on head retarded, and pure stoner myth.

Why?

This is why: *Liebig's law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebig's_law_of_the_minimum
*
A plant will only use nutrients at a balanced rate, and that balanced rate is determined by the LEAST available nutrient, so by cutting off or limiting ONE nutrient, you impact EVERY OTHER nutrient available to the plant...including nutrients needed to produce the glandular trichomes we're all trying to grow.

A healthy green plant is far more likely to produce healthy glandular trichomes, laden with thc, than an unhealthy plant that's being intentionally denied nutes and allowed to yellow, further hampering photosynthesis and other vital plant functions, like thc development.

Every issue people try to blame on "not flushing" turns out to be a drying and curing issue, not a nute or growth issue.

Regardless, do what you think is best.


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## charface (Jun 22, 2018)

Plants evolved in nature.
In the beginning of the season the ground is rich with nitrogen.

As the season progresses it gets used and when rains arrive fast acting nitrogen is the first to go.

Dr Ethan Russo thinks that by limiting
Nutrients you can actually get a boost in the terps, which is a huge factor in choosing a variety.

But clearly he is a retard.
According to him Terps decrease with soil fertility.

Listen to the Retarded Dr on the chasing fire podcast
Episode, cannabinoids and terpinoids.

You will notice right away he is just some dipshit stoner.

Always consider the source when taking in information.

Some of it is considerably valuable.
Some is retarded


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## growingforfun (Jun 22, 2018)

Wilksey said:


> Is pants on head retarded, and pure stoner myth.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


My experiance is differant. Im not advocating a "flush" just a taper off of nutrients. A plant thats dark green till the end hasnt ever been a good tasting plant for me or that ive seen. If it can be done though id like to see it, have to see it personally done an tasted it myself. Everything ive seen or experianced says its gonna taste like crap an nothing soneone says online is going to make be belive it just like that.


People who flush are the ones feeding way too much of some nasty bud finishers/hardeners an i think that crowd is dying out.


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## growingforfun (Jun 22, 2018)

I also think you should re-read that "law" its actually a principle, and i dont think your understanding and applying it properly. By the logic your seeming to apply, there shoupd never be such a thing as nitrogen toxicy, phos, etc becayse the plant takes them all up equally. Well we all know that isnt true even a little bit.

This is in relation to optimum plant growth, and that having double the nitrogen wont make up for having half the phos.


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## Miyagismokes (Jun 22, 2018)

growingforfun said:


> nasty bud finishers/hardeners an i think that crowd is dying out.


Not in my experience....
My neighbor is going to spend probably 6k in bottles this season.

Meanwhile, I operate slightly more organic and I'm pretty covered for the whole year on less than 1.5k


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## JohnDee (Jun 22, 2018)

Hi Guys,
If this principle from 1828 holds water (that's a pun on the Liebig's barrel)...then the stored nutrients in the plant do provide most macro-nutrients (the mobile ones). So perhaps providing the micro-nutrients at a low level would eliminate that bottleneck and still allow maximum growth while using up the mobile nutrients.

So thanks Wilksey, you provided a fresh perspective which was the goal of the thread.
JD


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## growingforfun (Jun 22, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> Not in my experience....
> My neighbor is going to spend probably 6k in bottles this season.
> 
> Meanwhile, I operate slightly more organic and I'm pretty covered for the whole year on less than 1.5k


Im sure he an others are stilm using them, but its a lot less than it used to be around these forums. And im talking just about bud hardeners such as gravity, topmax, etc that were all the rage 5-8 years ago.


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## Wilksey (Jun 23, 2018)

charface said:


> Dr Ethan Russo


Is a NEUROLOGIST, which means he's as qualified to talk about botany as YOU or I.



charface said:


> Always consider the source when taking in information.


Might be a good idea.


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## charface (Jun 23, 2018)

Wilksey said:


> Is a NEUROLOGIST, which means he's as qualified to talk about botany as YOU or I.
> 
> 
> Might be a good idea.


That dude knows waaaaaay more than I do.


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## Wilksey (Jun 23, 2018)

growingforfun said:


> I also think you should re-read that "law" its actually a principle, and i dont think your understanding and applying it properly. By the logic your seeming to apply, there shoupd never be such a thing as nitrogen toxicy, phos, etc becayse the plant takes them all up equally. Well we all know that isnt true even a little bit.
> 
> This is in relation to optimum plant growth, and that having double the nitrogen wont make up for having half the phos.


I understand it perfectly, which is why I will keep posting it on this forum until others do. 

First, the word "equal" does not exist in the post you are responding to, so that's something that YOU created, not I, friend.

Second, the term "balanced rate", which IS used in my post, refers to the PROPORTION of nutes used, and is similar to a "balanced meal" in that your protein, carb, and veggie load is NOT equal, but balanced in proportion. The article I linked should have made that perfectly clear....which is why I linked it.

As far as toxicity, salts are salts, and our hyrdo nutes are bound to salts to make them available to the plant. When toxicity builds up, it's not the nute as much as the SALT its bound to that robs the root zone of moisture, resulting in the back flow of liquid from the above ground level to the root zone in an attempt to keep the roots safe....which in turn fucks up the leaves on the top side. The plant has no choice in the matter, and toxicity occurs due to grower error, not the plant "pigging out" on any given available nute.


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## Wilksey (Jun 23, 2018)

charface said:


> That dude knows waaaaaay more than I do.


I doubt that, dude.


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## Wilksey (Jun 23, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> you provided a fresh perspective which was the goal of the thread.


Then my job is done here.

Best of luck, dude.


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## growingforfun (Jun 23, 2018)

If you understand it perfectly then you must have pulled some mystery information out of there because in no area of your link does it talk about not tapering off nutrients suppied to a plant to produce a cleaner smoke.
This is about growth rates for veggies and economics/population growth. Thats why im saying it doesnt seem like you understand it or are applying it correctly. This idea is from the 1800s and they didnt have the tools we are using now.. they had some basic processed fertilizers and some basic unprocessed fertlilizers. 

This is a very basic concept and everyone knows a chain is only as strong as the weakest link. Everyone knows yiu cant grow a plant without nitrogen. I reaply dont see why you think this has anything to do with the topic tho.


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## Wilksey (Jun 23, 2018)

growingforfun said:


> I reaply dont see why you think this has anything to do with the topic


Then we have nothing left to discuss.

Best of luck.


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## Miyagismokes (Jun 24, 2018)

growingforfun said:


> Im sure he an others are stilm using them, but its a lot less than it used to be around these forums. And im talking just about bud hardeners such as gravity, topmax, etc that were all the rage 5-8 years ago.


Ah, those days. 
Those would noticeably add a color to BHO, so I've always turned my nose up at "bud hardeners" that weren't kelp


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## Chunky Stool (Jun 30, 2018)

charface said:


> Plants evolved in nature.
> In the beginning of the season the ground is rich with nitrogen.
> 
> As the season progresses it gets used and when rains arrive fast acting nitrogen is the first to go.
> ...


Healthy plants are also more resistant to pests and mold/mildew. 
This is very important to me because it's usually getting cool and damp around finish time. 
Adding silica helps too.


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## charface (Jun 30, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Healthy plants are also more resistant to pests and mold/mildew.
> This is very important to me because


I agree with that. I have heard that yellow is a signal to certain pests that a plant is in a weakened state and is good for food.


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## Chunky Stool (Jun 30, 2018)

charface said:


> I agree with that. I have heard that yellow is a signal to certain pests that a plant is in a weakened state and is good for food.


Yep. 
Letting plants wilt from lack of water is also a no no. Attracts bugs, big time. 
It can even make them herm during flower. 
Mucho bad-o.


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## Miyagismokes (Jun 30, 2018)

charface said:


> I agree with that. I have heard that yellow is a signal to certain pests that a plant is in a weakened state and is good for food.


Makes sense for whiteflies and fugus gnats, that's for sure


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## charface (Jun 30, 2018)

I was just having a bad reaction in this thread when I posted all the retard shit. Lol

I had like too many bad days in a row so I lashed out at nothing over nothing. 

But, i feel better today. Haha


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## Chunky Stool (Jun 30, 2018)

charface said:


> I was just having a bad reaction in this thread when I posted all the retard shit. Lol
> 
> I had like too many bad days in a row so I lashed out at nothing over nothing.
> 
> But, i feel better today. Haha


So the video you mentioned is actually worth watching? 
I'm confused.


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## charface (Jun 30, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> So the video you mentioned is actually worth watching?
> I'm confused.


Absolutely worth it.


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## too larry (Jun 30, 2018)

charface said:


> I was just having a bad reaction in this thread when I posted all the retard shit. Lol
> 
> I had like too many bad days in a row so I lashed out at nothing over nothing.
> 
> But, i feel better today. Haha


I took that for very subtle use of sarcasm.


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## too larry (Jun 30, 2018)

too larry said:


> I took that for very subtle use of sarcasm.


Not that I have any personal experience with that subject.


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## charface (Jun 30, 2018)

too larry said:


> Not that I have any personal experience with that subject.


Haha, yeah, suuuper subtle.


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## too larry (Jun 30, 2018)

My 2 cents on feeding flowers late in the game. I use veg food first 3 weeks. Half veg/half flower food 2nd 3 weeks. Flower food last 3 weeks, tapering off the last two weeks.

Edit: I'm outdoors in the ground.


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## charface (Jun 30, 2018)

too larry said:


> My 2 cents on feeding flowers late in the game. I use veg food first 3 weeks. Half veg/half flower food 2nd 3 weeks. Flower food last 3 weeks, tapering off the last two weeks.


Almost exactly what I do. 
I don't like early yellowing
But I don't mind them fading towards the bitter end. 

In fact some of my best resin production has been on faded plants.

I know that is not science but it happened. 

My gut feeling is that restricting food
Towards the end may shock the plants into survival mode so they shift into high gear with the resin.

Again that is just something I think MIGHT happen.


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## too larry (Jun 30, 2018)

charface said:


> Almost exactly what I do.
> I don't like early yellowing
> But I don't mind them fading towards the bitter end. . . . . . .


Tdub kind of steered me in that direction. If he were still here, he could explain just why it's the right way to go. All I know is it works.


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## charface (Jun 30, 2018)

Its a fine line for me. 
I taper but not starve. 
I honestly don't know what's right
Both sides have convincing arguments. 
I do know that i eased up on my feeding of this skunk and got the nicest run of it I ever had. 

I just found the sweet spot for that strain. However the Diesel i grew right next it was pretty average.


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 1, 2018)

charface said:


> Almost exactly what I do.
> I don't like early yellowing
> But I don't mind them fading towards the bitter end.
> 
> ...


You could be right. 
I've finished both ways but never actually done a side-by-side bud comparison. 
The ideal nute schedule seems to vary by strain. 
I've had strains that would puff up if you gave them nitrogen during flower but other strains did just fine.
I ran a Cindy99 clone in my last crop that ended up with puffy buds but the double purple doja finished great. The were in identical grow bags, same soil, same nutes. 
Both had been grown out successfully by experienced growers (good genetics). 

I'm not sure starving plants of nitrogen actually reduces it in the final product because N is mobile and buds are the #1 priority for the plant.


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 1, 2018)

There is definitely merit to the theory that stressing plants late in flower can produce more cannabinoids, but it's a trade off -- especially outdoors. 
Someone even started a thread about topping buds (pinching the tips).


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## the rock (Jul 1, 2018)

I let my plants get to the wilting stage occasionally(outdoors only,indoors no) and have never had a problem with any sort of bug when wilted( or not.) I just like to get the soil totally dryed out once in a while.


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 1, 2018)

the rock said:


> I let my plants get to the wilting stage occasionally(outdoors only,indoors no) and have never had a problem with any sort of bug when wilted( or not.) I just like to get the soil totally dryed out once in a while.


It's not a big deal if you catch it early and the plant is reasonably healthy. If you grow in plastic pots, letting them dry out "air prunes" the roots which helps prevent swirling. 
Veg only. Definitely not recommended for flowering plants.


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## Igrowmeds22 (Jul 2, 2018)

growingforfun said:


> You shouldnt be completly starving your plant, but there should be some yellowing and leaf drop. But there should also still be some green leaf at harvest. Hope this helps


This is solid advice and good reasoning. I have always found that a slight decrease in N at the end of flower gives me the best result for flavor and quality. I try for about 30% yellowing by harvest time with the upper part of the plant being green. I start lowering N in the last 5 days prior to cutting. Not sure if this affects yield but I’m most concerned with quality.


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## Igrowmeds22 (Jul 2, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> This was exactly my thinking. But one area I need to check out more is how do some of these dudes cure.
> 
> I have read that slow drying actually allows the plant to continue metabolizing essentially using up stored nutrients.
> 
> ...


I think your on target. I have split my room back when I was hand watering and tasted a BIG difference in the flower. The plants that used up their stored nutes ant the end of the cycle cured faster and had cleaner flavor.


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## ganga gurl420 (Jul 2, 2018)

I've read back and forth on this subject for years and did my own experiment. 
Last grow I took 3 plants and kept them green. While the others I let fade.

The ones that were green to the end had smaller buds over all and was 1 pound lighter per plant. 

The science I've read behind it is that if the plant is pulling nutes from the roots instead of its leaf then it is wasting energy that it could be using to make fatter buds. (Short version)


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 3, 2018)

ganga gurl420 said:


> I've read back and forth on this subject for years and did my own experiment.
> Last grow I took 3 plants and kept them green. While the others I let fade.
> 
> The ones that were green to the end had smaller buds over all and was 1 pound lighter per plant.
> ...


Sounds interesting! 
Please share links to this science. 

Lots of factors so statistics matter. 

Unless you have defoliated your plants, they will be "wasting energy" moving mobile nutrients from leaves to buds if you starve them. 

Hmm... 

Maybe cutting the immobile nutrients near the end of flower is what makes buds better??? 
Dunno. 

I've heard other growers say plants won't finish right if you keep giving them calcium all the way thru flower. 
PH thing? 

Again, dunno. 
Just thinking out loud.


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## too larry (Jul 6, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> . . . . . . . .I've heard other growers say plants won't finish right if you keep giving them calcium all the way thru flower.
> PH thing?
> 
> Again, dunno.
> Just thinking out loud.


Tdub told me to stop with Epson salt and molasses about week six. Forgot why. Maybe it took a couple of weeks for the plant to get around to using it?

A lot of the time I will have plants in various stages of flower in the same patch, so they all get what the majority needs.


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## JohnDee (Jul 6, 2018)

too larry said:


> Tdub told me to stop with Epson salt and molasses about week six.


Hi Too Larry...seen your name around but never bumped into you. Not sure about the Ca++ thing Chunky Stool was referring...but Mg is too important to withhold IMHO. Most flush products actually contain Epsom salts.

No calcium in Epsom salts. Now Calmag is a different story. 
JD


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 6, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> Hi Too Larry...seen your name around but never bumped into you. Not sure about the Ca++ thing Chunky Stool was referring...but Mg is too important to withhold IMHO. Most flush products actually contain Epsom salts.
> 
> No calcium in Epsom salts. Now Calmag is a different story.
> JD


Are yellow veins a sign of mg deficiency? 
I'm seeing that on a lot of my outdoor plants. 

Easy enough to fix with a foliar, if that's the problem...


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## JohnDee (Jul 6, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Are yellow veins a sign of mg deficiency?
> I'm seeing that on a lot of my outdoor plants.
> 
> Easy enough to fix with a foliar, if that's the problem..


Hi Chunky Stool,
It's much more complicated usually. K+ deficiency shows somewhat similar to Mg def. but much less common.
OK...look at a marijuana leaf on the outside saw-tooth edge. starting in the notches inward are the veins. Mg def. shows chlorosis between the veins. Minor but important point.

And marijuana in general and some strains more then others likes lots of Mg. White Widow and related strains will show deficiency if you don't supplement.

So if you haven't been supplementing magnesium and your plants show interveinal chlorosis...it would be a fair guess that it's Mg deficient and yes, foliar or applied to roots via watering can both resolve this.

This is a gross simplification and how the plant looks as the deficienct develops is also part of it. Look it up.
Cheers,
JD


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## Lucky Luke (Jul 7, 2018)

Interesting read.
I normally taper down and end up with a nice fade. Ive just harvested a green plant (6 days ago) and will be interesting to see what it ends up smoking like. It is frosty and stinky.


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## JohnDee (Jul 7, 2018)

Lucky Luke said:


> Ive just harvested a green plant (6 days ago) and will be interesting to see what it ends up smoking like.


Luke...seems most of the folks harvesting green rely on a long cure to smooth things out...so try that. I'd love to hear the results.
JD


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 7, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> Luke...seems most of the folks harvesting green rely on a long cure to smooth things out...so try that. I'd love to hear the results.
> JD


I've found that overdosing with phosphorous is what gives buds that harsh taste. 

The same is true with tomatoes. 
Hit em with a few doses of 5-50-17 while they're ripening and it will make them taste like shit -- guaranteed. (Been there, done that.) 

Not that the majority of stoners care. 
_"Can't get off until you cough"_ is bullshit.


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## JohnDee (Jul 7, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> I've found that overdosing with phosphorous is what gives buds that harsh taste.


Chunky...you are absolutely correct (been there done that myself) but there's a very broad spectrum between unsmokable...all the way to...smooth and flavorful.

So P isn't the only thing to fuck with flavor, just the worst.
JD


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## Lucky Luke (Jul 7, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> Luke...seems most of the folks harvesting green rely on a long cure to smooth things out...so try that. I'd love to hear the results.
> JD


I'll put a couple smaller buds away for myself and try it in a few months time.


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