# Added 400MH to 2-600HPS during flower



## Craig1969SS (Nov 30, 2015)

i added a bare bulb 400mh in between my existing ushio 600hps. Have 2 C99 and 2- AK47 clones finishing in 2-3 weeks. I'm doing this for the 2- AK 47 that are 2 weeks into flower. They are fairly close together about 12", and no more than 16" away from the plants with the bulb tips about at the top of the plants. Temps are 73 in the canopy and 68 in the soil. Hoping to see something a little different happen, hopefully better


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 30, 2015)

Craig1969SS said:


> i added a bare bulb 400mh in between my existing ushio 600hps. Have 2 C99 and 2- AK47 clones finishing in 2-3 weeks. I'm doing this for the 2- AK 47 that are 2 weeks into flower. They are fairly close together about 12", and no more than 16" away from the plants with the bulb tips about at the top of the plants. Temps are 73 in the canopy and 68 in the soil. Hoping to see something a little different happen, hopefully better


you will!
the BEST results I ever had was with two 600hps and a 400MH in the middle, with overlapping light.
I'm actually doing a similar setup now, with one 600hps and one 600MH...
You will notice a difference in the high, or at least I did. Not more stony, but more visual, room more "sparkly" a tad bit more crystal development, but that could be solely because of the added lumens


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## Craig1969SS (Nov 30, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> you will!
> the BEST results I ever had was with two 600hps and a 400MH in the middle, with overlapping light.
> I'm actually doing a similar setup now, with one 600hps and one 600MH...
> You will notice a difference in the high, or at least I did. Not more stony, but more visual, room more "sparkly" a tad bit more crystal development, but that could be solely because of the added lumens


Cool good to know. I'm still unsure about where the bulb tip should go in relation to the top of the plants? Where'd u put yours?


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 30, 2015)

Craig1969SS said:


> Cool good to know. I'm still unsure about where the bulb tip should go in relation to the top of the plants? Where'd u put yours?


well, my two 600s were horizontal, and my mh was in the middle, vertically.
What I used was a custom built reflector (looked like a giant canoe, upside down) and I had them spaced apart to fit my closet perfectly..
it was a helluva grow set up.
My concern with yours, as it is, is all that lost light man... gotta catch that somehow, tent it up or something, course then you run into heat issues..


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 30, 2015)

Craig1969SS said:


> Cool good to know. I'm still unsure about where the bulb tip should go in relation to the top of the plants? Where'd u put yours?


also important to note, especially with the new 600Mhs, is that unless you simply need more of a light footprint, generally you'd get better results from two 1000s, and damn near the same wattage, remember those ballasts take electricity too.
You are right at about 1900 watts, and two 1000s are only about 2200...
that extra 300 watts will produce some dense ass flowers man.
three lamps will cover more area, but two 1000s will penetrate way better, and also may produce less heat than from three different heat sources, so you may save on ventilation or a/c costs


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## m4s73r (Nov 30, 2015)

Also, you would do better with the light if you removed the cool tubes. that glass tube is just blocking lumens.


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## Craig1969SS (Nov 30, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> well, my two 600s were horizontal, and my mh was in the middle, vertically.
> What I used was a custom built reflector (looked like a giant canoe, upside down) and I had them spaced apart to fit my closet perfectly..
> it was a helluva grow set up.
> My concern with yours, as it is, is all that lost light man... gotta catch that somehow, tent it up or something, course then you run into heat issues..


Yeah this is about the 10th time I've changed it all up, and it'll change when I add more that are vegging now. 2 of those tubes have hoods with em. I could only get 2 plants per hood at best so I'm in a learning curve here


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## greasemonkeymann (Dec 1, 2015)

Craig1969SS said:


> Yeah this is about the 10th time I've changed it all up, and it'll change when I add more that are vegging now. 2 of those tubes have hoods with em. I could only get 2 plants per hood at best so I'm in a learning curve here


I feel ya man.
For me, personally, if you are looking to grow the BEST indoor that you can, a mixed spectrum is essential, that's why the led guys have been doing so well, a straight hps will grow some great herb, but for overall taste and effect, an added MH is the way to go, and like I said, it may be also because of the sheer added light, but I discount that theory because I've done grows with the same wattage/ballast only all hps (I have an oldschool switchable hps/mh 400)
I'm eager to see if the 10k "finisher" 600w mh is all it seems to be... that's a bright-ass bulb..


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## Craig1969SS (Dec 1, 2015)

Craig1969SS said:


> i added a bare bulb 400mh in between my existing ushio 600hps. Have 2 C99 and 2- AK47 clones finishing in 2-3 weeks. I'm doing this for the 2- AK 47 that are 2 weeks into flower. They are fairly close together about 12", and no more than 16" away from the plants with the bulb tips about at the top of the plants. Temps are 73 in the canopy and 68 in the soil. Hoping to see something a little different happen, hopefully better





greasemonkeymann said:


> well, my two 600s were horizontal, and my mh was in the middle, vertically.
> What I used was a custom built reflector (looked like a giant canoe, upside down) and I had them spaced apart to fit my closet perfectly..
> it was a helluva grow set up.
> My concern with yours, as it is, is all that lost light man... gotta catch that somehow, tent it up or something, course then you run into heat issues..


Put up some 4' hanging and adjustable reflective panels on 3 sides. 25' x4' roll at Home Depot. Used my tent poles to frame it and zip ties. I got them on light hangers so adjusting is a breeze and u can push them aside to get to the plants. The material looks like a hammered light hood and is about 1/4" thick. Super easy to work with and doesn't flop around or curl up to much.


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 1, 2015)

i think your wasting alot of light with that set up,, the fans alone are in the best light area..if you ran bulbs horizontally 2 600 hps and a 400 mh in middle would easily cover a 4ftx 8 ft table..keep plants at around 4ft tall or less and even the lower buds will be large as the penetration of the 600's is 3ft deep..i grew large plants in 5 gal dwc buckets for a wile and grew huge 6ft tall plants,, but found switching over to sog running 30 plants with very little veg time and keeping plants 3-4 ft tall max yields wer way better and the lower buds wer much bigger pluss less time trimming...even under a 1k hps i feel penetration isnt much deeper than 4ft as the leaves really fill in any space between plants,, so no matter the lamp being used unless i want to add lower lighting i keep plants under the 4ft mark.. 
with your set up tho you can keep the 2 600's at the top of canopy and drop the 400 to keep the lower branches light and grow fewer but much taller plants.. or keep the 400 verticle at middle height and run the 2 600's horizontally and still get taller plants but better coverage than all 3 lamps verticle...just my opinion tho,, ive seen some killer tall plants grown with verticle lamps,,,but for me i like things better keeping short plants with horizontal lighting...


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## Craig1969SS (Dec 1, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> i think your wasting alot of light with that set up,, the fans alone are in the best light area..if you ran bulbs horizontally 2 600 hps and a 400 mh in middle would easily cover a 4ftx 8 ft table..keep plants at around 4ft tall or less and even the lower buds will be large as the penetration of the 600's is 3ft deep..i grew large plants in 5 gal dwc buckets for a wile and grew huge 6ft tall plants,, but found switching over to sog running 30 plants with very little veg time and keeping plants 3-4 ft tall max yields wer way better and the lower buds wer much bigger pluss less time trimming...even under a 1k hps i feel penetration isnt much deeper than 4ft as the leaves really fill in any space between plants,, so no matter the lamp being used unless i want to add lower lighting i keep plants under the 4ft mark..
> with your set up tho you can keep the 2 600's at the top of canopy and drop the 400 to keep the lower branches light and grow fewer but much taller plants.. or keep the 400 verticle at middle height and run the 2 600's horizontally and still get taller plants but better coverage than all 3 lamps verticle...just my opinion tho,, ive seen some killer tall plants grown with verticle lamps,,,but for me i like things better keeping short plants with horizontal lighting...


Thanks for the ideas and all of those lights have hoods. I'm just getting my feet wet turning the bulbs vertical so I'm dealing with some unknowns and knowns that have given me a case of the ass already. It does seem s waste at the moment. Bulb placement , I couldn't get a answer for the longest time but found out they should be lower and not at the top of the plants as they are. I may mix some horizontal with this in the end, I'm sure I'll try. My next plants won't be ready for a month. I have 2 more lights to work with. But yeah the room needs more work and organizing. I'm getting frustrated with vertical only because my lack of experience. It will probably look different next week when I've had enough. Thanks again


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## greasemonkeymann (Dec 2, 2015)

Craig1969SS said:


> Thanks for the ideas and all of those lights have hoods. I'm just getting my feet wet turning the bulbs vertical so I'm dealing with some unknowns and knowns that have given me a case of the ass already. It does seem s waste at the moment. Bulb placement , I couldn't get a answer for the longest time but found out they should be lower and not at the top of the plants as they are. I may mix some horizontal with this in the end, I'm sure I'll try. My next plants won't be ready for a month. I have 2 more lights to work with. But yeah the room needs more work and organizing. I'm getting frustrated with vertical only because my lack of experience. It will probably look different next week when I've had enough. Thanks again


it'd be a really good idea to get some squirrel blowers on those lights instead of those big fans too, those fans are probably at least 150-200 w.
a set of two 4" vortex fans would be waaaay less energy, and work 15 times better, you are swirling hot air in there, as opposed to evacuating it, even single 6" inline fan would work ten times better.
Less heat, means closer plants, which means more light supplied..
Vert grows are challenging man, in my opinion it's more trouble than it's worth, but i'd never make that decision for someone else.


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## greasemonkeymann (Dec 2, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> i think your wasting alot of light with that set up,, the fans alone are in the best light area..if you ran bulbs horizontally 2 600 hps and a 400 mh in middle would easily cover a 4ftx 8 ft table..keep plants at around 4ft tall or less and even the lower buds will be large as the penetration of the 600's is 3ft deep..i grew large plants in 5 gal dwc buckets for a wile and grew huge 6ft tall plants,, but found switching over to sog running 30 plants with very little veg time and keeping plants 3-4 ft tall max yields wer way better and the lower buds wer much bigger pluss less time trimming...even under a 1k hps i feel penetration isnt much deeper than 4ft as the leaves really fill in any space between plants,, so no matter the lamp being used unless i want to add lower lighting i keep plants under the 4ft mark..
> with your set up tho you can keep the 2 600's at the top of canopy and drop the 400 to keep the lower branches light and grow fewer but much taller plants.. or keep the 400 verticle at middle height and run the 2 600's horizontally and still get taller plants but better coverage than all 3 lamps verticle...just my opinion tho,, ive seen some killer tall plants grown with verticle lamps,,,but for me i like things better keeping short plants with horizontal lighting...


extremely good advice, I agree 100%
especially in regards to the size of plants, I have better yields and waay easier trim job when I keep em low and train to 4 or 6 tops.
So much better, and I can fit a whole extra harvest per yr with the shorter turnarounds, I did have to get a better cloner though, but big deal, needed one anyways.


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## Craig1969SS (Dec 2, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> extremely good advice, I agree 100%
> especially in regards to the size of plants, I have better yields and waay easier trim job when I keep em low and train to 4 or 6 tops.
> So much better, and I can fit a whole extra harvest per yr with the shorter turnarounds, I did have to get a better cloner though, but big deal, needed one anyways.


Made a few refinements. Got rid of the cool tubes and cut out one hps and replaced the 400mh with a 600mh. So 2 bare bulb 600's with the main part of the bulbs in the middle of the plants. The bulbs have a bracket holding them 3-4" apart. . I'm working on the fans soon.


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## m4s73r (Dec 2, 2015)

Hold up dude. I mean your getting there. But you need to set your shit up like this
...XXXXX
X..O...O...X
...XXXXX

Spread that light apart. Get them plants 12-18 inches off the bulbs. Get them in nice and tight. As the plant grow toward that light, back them off a little. 

All you need for fans is the 15 dollar fan from amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Kaz-HT-900-Honeywell-TurboForce-Fan/dp/B001R1RXUG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1449118710&sr=8-1&keywords=desk+fan

Im going to assume you have a duct fan cycling the air out of the room. 
Heat rises, the fan is just there to "help" it along. I use this exact fan under my 600 for 2 years. On Low.


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## Craig1969SS (Dec 2, 2015)

I'm more than a little bummed at where I am now compared to where I was using hoods. The room is cooled with a thermostat controlled window unit with a small air inlet for outside air. Removing heat isn't a biggie and RH is 45-50%. Sticking a thermocouple through the buds towards the lights measured 73-76 @ 15". Soil temp in those 5 gal fabric pots is 66-67 which seems too cool. The 3 gal plastic ones soil temp is 72-73. The plants aren't digging it either, their droopy and just sitting there looking like shit, kinda like me trying too hard to make this work for the last week. This is like trying to make an ugly weld pretty, it just gets worse the more you try. I'm leaving this whole bitch alone for 3-4 days and see if they come around. I wanna break something


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## Yodaweed (Dec 3, 2015)

I use 3 600w HID lights, two HPS on the sides and a 600w MH in the middle. All horizontal.


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## greasemonkeymann (Dec 3, 2015)

Yodaweed said:


> I use 3 600w HID lights, two HPS on the sides and a 600w MH in the middle. All horizontal.


yes! ideally that's the correct setup.


Craig1969SS said:


> I'm more than a little bummed at where I am now compared to where I was using hoods. The room is cooled with a thermostat controlled window unit with a small air inlet for outside air. Removing heat isn't a biggie and RH is 45-50%. Sticking a thermocouple through the buds towards the lights measured 73-76 @ 15". Soil temp in those 5 gal fabric pots is 66-67 which seems too cool. The 3 gal plastic ones soil temp is 72-73. The plants aren't digging it either, their droopy and just sitting there looking like shit, kinda like me trying too hard to make this work for the last week. This is like trying to make an ugly weld pretty, it just gets worse the more you try. I'm leaving this whole bitch alone for 3-4 days and see if they come around. I wanna break something


Ahh don't worry my man,, you are close.
you have the correct equipment but are going about it the wrong way, it's all good, we've all done it in some fashion.
The best way to do this is to turn ONE light on, pay attention to it's "footprint" , where it's the brightest, and where it isn't, if you can find something to read the intensity of the light, that's the best way.
You want to use it sorta like a flashlight, and you want the brightest intensity, while covering the most square footage.
After you see the footprint of one light, do another, and adjust it to where the footprint is the brightest, yet not too "directed"
Just think of the lamps as flashlights, you want them pointing on the plants obviously.
A vert grow with multiple lights is sorta weird man, considering the whle premise is to completely cover the light footprint with varying sizes of plants, but with mutiple lights, you'll be wasting a lot of light


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