# is GH flora series made for RO water or just tap water(should you add calmag+ to RO )



## johndoecangrow (Jul 19, 2010)

I heard that if you are using R/O water you should add calmag+ to bring up the ppm a little with the iron/calcium because most nutrients are meant to be used with tap water. but if this where true why do they tell you to use the hard water micro if your ppm is above a certain level that says to me that the regular micro is for R/O water that has a lower if not any ppm right.and I have never had a micro deficiency using GH flora series maybe with other nutrients its more of a problem. but this is the first time I've started using R/O water instead of tap water. any sugestions about this?


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## homebrewer (Jul 19, 2010)

Why complicate the situation by using R/O water?


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## justparanoid (Jul 19, 2010)

i used 0 ppm ro/di water with gh flora series in my last grow and i had no nutrient issues at all.

JP


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## johndoecangrow (Jul 19, 2010)

I went to work at a commercial medical grow and he wants to use r/o water


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## doc111 (Jul 20, 2010)

homebrewer said:


> Why complicate the situation by using R/O water?


Some people may argue "Why complicate the situation by* NOT* using R/O water?". Using R/O water eliminates one variable which many growers often overlook.........the quality of their tapwater. Tapwater quality can vary a lot from region to region. Some is excellent for growing while some shouldn't be consumed by humans, let alone our plants! Hardness levels of tapwater can fluctuate wildly throughout the year as municipalities switch up the source they are drawing from, environmental conditions, etc. If you have good tapwater for growing then I say use it! If your tapwater quality is in question or you are having problems and can't figure out why, your tapwater may be the problem. Click on the link in my sig if you want to learn more about water. Best of luck and happy growing!


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## homebrewer (Jul 20, 2010)

doc111 said:


> Some people may argue "Why complicate the situation by* NOT* using R/O water?". Using R/O water eliminates one variable which many growers often overlook.........the quality of their tapwater. Tapwater quality can vary a lot from region to region. Some is excellent for growing while some shouldn't be consumed by humans, let alone our plants! Hardness levels of tapwater can fluctuate wildly throughout the year as municipalities switch up the source they are drawing from, environmental conditions, etc. If you have good tapwater for growing then I say use it! If your tapwater quality is in question or you are having problems and can't figure out why, your tapwater may be the problem. Click on the link in my sig if you want to learn more about water. Best of luck and happy growing!


 The only time water will vary is if the water is coming from a river source. Even then, your municipality will send you a water report with all the important info that you'll need AND it will be broken down into months to see which months fluctuate more than others. This will let you know where your important values are such as Calcium, magnesium and the bicarbonate levels. I also challenge you to find ONE region where the tap water is unsafe for consumption.

To answer the OP's question, I do think it's a good idea to add a calmag supplement to your R/O water. I even add it to my tap water as I know my tap water is a little light on these essential macronutrients.


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## doc111 (Jul 20, 2010)

homebrewer said:


> The only time water will vary is if the water is coming from a river source. Even then, your municipality will send you a water report with all the important info that you'll need AND it will be broken down into months to see which months fluctuate more than others. This will let you know where your important values are such as Calcium, magnesium and the bicarbonate levels. I also challenge you to find ONE region where the tap water is unsafe for consumption.
> 
> To answer the OP's question, I do think it's a good idea to add a calmag supplement to your R/O water. I even add it to my tap water as I know my tap water is a little light on these essential macronutrients.


Wrong! My tapwater is drawn from 4 different sources throughout the year. It varies between about 200-600 ppm! That's a lot of fluctuation. I'm a bit of an expert in this field so I think I know what I'm talking about.


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## homebrewer (Jul 20, 2010)

doc111 said:


> Wrong! My tapwater is drawn from 4 different sources throughout the year. It varies between about 200-600 ppm! That's a lot of fluctuation. I'm a bit of an expert in this field so I think I know what I'm talking about.


 An expert, eh? I'm a brewer. Beer is 90% water. Please cut and paste your local water report by month, because an 'expert' would have a copy of this on hand, not just a ppm meter.


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## doc111 (Jul 20, 2010)

homebrewer said:


> An expert, eh? I'm a brewer. Beer is 90% water. Please cut and paste your local water report by month, because an 'expert' would have a copy of this on hand, not just a ppm meter.


Well I'm a retired firefighter and I spent 15 years spraying the shit on fires! My hose is bigger than your hose!

I don't feel comfortable giving that info to you or anybody else on here. Nice try though officer.


I also have a master's degree in chemistry and work in a lab.


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## homebrewer (Jul 20, 2010)

doc111 said:


> Well I'm a retired firefighter and I spent 15 years spraying the shit on fires! My hose is bigger than your hose!
> 
> I don't feel comfortable giving that info to you or anybody else on here. Nice try though officer.
> 
> ...


Good, so you know that a PPM meter gives you an overall look at your water, similar to the total population of a country, _without_ giving you the important specifics like calcium, sodium, chloride, sulfur and bicarbonates. What does the total population of a country tell you about race, or unemployment or gender? Nothing at all. I think you see my point. So having a water report and knowing how your water fluctuates from month to month will tell you when you need calcium, or when you may need to cut your water with R/O water due to bicarbonate levels. If you're arguing that R/O water is consistent, then I absolutely agree. But to say it's unsafe for humans and plants without knowing what _exactly_ is making up your PPM is just plain silly.


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## Banditt (Jul 20, 2010)

lol @ homebrewer

If you have a filter and some cal-mag, RO is better then tap. You don't need a water report because you know exactly what your putting in it when you use RO water. To say RO water complicates the situation is idiotic. If anything it simplifies the situation. Your water is now a clean palette. Your nutes can be added in the proper concentrations without worrying what was in the water to begin with.


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## doc111 (Jul 20, 2010)

homebrewer said:


> Good, so you know that a PPM meter gives you an overall look at your water, similar to the total population of a country, _without_ giving you the important specifics like calcium, sodium, chloride, sulfur and bicarbonates. What does the total population of a country tell you about race, or unemployment or gender? Nothing at all. I think you see my point. So having a water report and knowing how your water fluctuates from month to month will tell you when you need calcium, or when you may need to cut your water with R/O water due to bicarbonate levels. If you're arguing that R/O water is consistent, then I absolutely agree. But to say it's unsafe for humans and plants without knowing what _exactly_ is making up your PPM is just plain silly.


Evidently you haven't looked at my water *STICKY*. All of this information is in there, and then some. My city gives me a water quality report once a year. I can go online and get a copy of it or I can go to the water company and get an up to date one. They compile their data and give averages throughout the year. Trust me, I've researched this shit until I'm blue in the face. You are correct about a TDS meter only giving you a converted EC reading which is a close apporoximation of Total Dissolved Solids (TDS). I can go to my lab and run a GC/MS and get the exact breakdown any time I wish but why bother when I can start with water of a known purity and add only what I want to. No hassle and I have just eliminated a variable which can completely wreck your grow! I never said anything about water being UNSAFE (please show me where I mention this). I was being a bit hyperbolic by saying that some water has so much junk in it (dissolved solids/hardness, chlorine, chloramine, fluoride, arsenic, pharmaceutical compounds, etc.) that it wasn't fit for human or plant comsumption. And FYI, there is much debate over just how safe most tap water is, so...............


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## homebrewer (Jul 20, 2010)

doc111 said:


> Tapwater quality can vary a lot from region to region. Some is excellent for growing while *some shouldn't be consumed by humans, let alone our plants!*


 I think this is where you say it's unsafe. 

So what have we concluded? That there are many ways to arrive at the same result, depending on your knowledge and attention to detail.


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## doc111 (Jul 20, 2010)

homebrewer said:


> I think this is where you say it's unsafe.
> 
> So what have we concluded? That there are many ways to arrive at the same result, depending on your knowledge and attention to detail.


"*Unsafe*" is your word, not mine. I also said that I was being a bit hyperbolic (that means I was exaggerating a bit) in order to make a point. It matters not one little bit what "we've" concluded. You asked the question "why complicate things by using r/o". Since most people don't have access to a GC/MS it makes sense for the majority of growers to start with water of a known quality instead of constantly testing and changing up amounts of specific nutrients. Hardness, which is the thing us growers are mainly concerned about, can vary wildly, trust me on this, I know for a fact. Not every municipality experiences such wild swings in dissolved solids but some do and to say that all water treatment facilities do things the same way or that every city has consistent water quality is irresponsible. This is especially important to the hydro grower or anybody who has shit tap water, and trust me there are plenty of us out there who have shit for tap water.


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## patlpp (Jul 20, 2010)

Arguments aside, I think GH Flora is doing the consumer well by giving them the option to use RO or tap (by purchasing their Hard Water Micro ) Look at AN, where is the Mg and Ca in it's 3 part? You still need Bug Bud or SensiCal , another bottle to buy, no choice. GH Flora is complete, that's why Lucas works with no sups. 

To the OP: GH assumes RO but supplies plenty of Cal/Mag in the 3-part (1 1/2% Mag in the Bloom and 5% Calcium in the micro). No need to sup.

I am on well water and I see a 100 ppm swing after a good rain, but after a couple days, it subsides. I go RO for consistency. 

Homebrew: I have used both RO and Tap when I brew. I mash . I must say, my beer tastes better using tap. This is with Ale recipes. Have you tried RO in beer? In particular a pils?


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## homebrewer (Jul 20, 2010)

doc111 said:


> "*Unsafe*" is your word, not mine. I also said that I was being a bit hyperbolic (that means I was exaggerating a bit) in order to make a point. It matters not one little bit what "we've" concluded. You asked the question "why complicate things by using r/o". Since most people don't have access to a GC/MS it makes sense for the majority of growers to start with water of a known quality instead of constantly testing and changing up amounts of specific nutrients. Hardness, which is the thing us growers are mainly concerned about, can vary wildly, trust me on this, I know for a fact. Not every municipality experiences such wild swings in dissolved solids but some do and to say that all water treatment facilities do things the same way or that every city has consistent water quality is irresponsible. This is especially important to the hydro grower or anybody who has shit tap water, and trust me there are plenty of us out there who have shit for tap water.


 I know water in certain regions can vary, brewers bitch about it more than growers as water is even more important to us. Mine varies a little from month to month so I make the appropriate adjustments for my plants and my beer. I took issue with you exaggerating the terrors of local tap water and pointed out that knowing the specific values that make up a PPM reading is much more useful than a general PPM number. Making a blind switch to r/o water based on nothing other than a sticky and a PPM reading is silly and inefficient. If one wants to talk water, they need to have _all_ the information before they make the jump to an r/o filter for their home or multiple trips to the grocery store for distilled.


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## doc111 (Jul 20, 2010)

homebrewer said:


> I know water in certain regions can vary, brewers bitch about it more than growers as water is even more important to us. Mine varies a little from month to month so I make the appropriate adjustments for my plants and my beer. I took issue with you exaggerating the terrors of local tap water and pointed out that knowing the specific values that make up a PPM reading is much more useful than a general PPM number. Making a blind switch to r/o water based on nothing other than a sticky and a PPM reading is silly and inefficient. If one wants to talk water, they need to have _all_ the information before they make the jump to an r/o filter for their home or multiple trips to the grocery store for distilled.


I never tell anybody to make a blind switch to r/o. Research, research, research is my mantra. I don't advise anybody to just take someone's word. Research it, test it yourself. PPM's is what most growers understand and what they go by and is a good indicator of hardness, which if too high can wreck a grow. That's also a bit of firsthand knowledge. You evidently tried to read into what I was saying and turned it into somehow me saying "Don't drink tap water! It's bad and will kill you!" What I said was for effect and to make a point, that's all. Sorry I offended you.


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## homebrewer (Jul 20, 2010)

patlpp said:


> Homebrew: I have used both RO and Tap when I brew. I mash . I must say, my beer tastes better using tap. This is with Ale recipes. Have you tried RO in beer? In particular a pils?


 Yeast need nutrients like calcium, magnesium and zinc so using straight r/o water is not a good idea. In addition, sodium, chloride and bicarbonate levels will affect the mouth feel and taste of the beer. Beers from the pilsen region were/are brewed with soft water which is why when I brew that style, I cut my water with r/o to get my values down. Or using r/o water and adding back salts works as well too, it depends on your local water - which is why I stress a local water report. To add to that, beers from Dublin, which is known to have hard water, are roasty and rich because the high levels of minerals in the beer emphasize those flavors. As a brewer, I'm sure you already knew that, but my point is that knowing specifics is important. Imagine just using a PPM meter to brew with, yikes.


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## surphin (Jul 20, 2010)

I've been using GH 3-part for a long time and used it with tap water, my tap water being around 250-300. I can say the only problems I had were salt build-up and constant monitoring and adjustment of my PH. 

Now I've been using RO water with GH 3-part, not lucas formula, all three parts and no deficiency problems. No problems at all with build-up, and PH is much easier to maintain. The main reason I switched to RO was because I have a couple of nano-reef tanks and having an RO system at home makes life a lot easier. So using RO water for my other hobby was a bonus, but I can say now that I have switched to RO I'm never ever going back.

So to answer the OP question, yes GH 3-part is meant for filtered water, no you don't need to use cal/mag if you're using RO. Unless you're using lucas formula, then you might want to keep some around just in case.


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## homebrewer (Jul 20, 2010)

surphin said:


> So to answer the OP question, yes GH 3-part is meant for filtered water, no you don't need to use cal/mag if you're using RO. Unless you're using lucas formula, then you might want to keep some around just in case.


 It's not meant for R/O water. You can call them yourself and ask as I just did. They specifically said that if you're using R/O water that a cal/mag suppliment is probably needed. The formula was put together years ago when R/O water wasn't as prevalent as it is now. 

Give 'em a call and fact check me  http://www.genhydro.com/genhydro_US/contact_us.html


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## doc111 (Jul 20, 2010)

homebrewer said:


> It's not meant for R/O water. You can call them yourself and ask as I just did. They specifically said that if you're using R/O water that a cal/mag suppliment is probably needed. The formula was put together years ago when R/O water wasn't as prevalent as it is now.
> 
> Give 'em a call and fact check me  http://www.genhydro.com/genhydro_US/contact_us.html


I was intrigued by this statement so I took your advice and called them. I spoke to Nancy and she said that they weren't necessarily made for r/o water but that most of these nutrient companies do their testing and stuff with r/o or distilled water. She did say that you *may* need to add cal/mag depending on your strain, grow medium, etc.


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## patlpp (Jul 20, 2010)

yea MAY is the key word. I have used GH lucas w/ro for a long time and NEVER had to Mag sup . Lucas provides 107 ppm Ca and 60 PPM Mag which is more than even Botanicare Cal/Mag + GH has 5%Ca and 1.5% Mg. All nute tables PPM values are with RO water. You have to have a standard (reference), and RO is that standard


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## surphin (Jul 20, 2010)

I didn't mean to say 'meant' as in 'specifically made for' I just used that word because I couldn't think of a better word to use. 

When you look at the nutrient calculator page: http://www.genhydro.com/calculator/index.html the notes section states that the figures are based off using pure water, which probably lead me to use the word 'meant'. That and laziness.


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## surphin (Jul 20, 2010)

Hey, how come the link I posted looks different then everybody else's?


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## TearDrop (Jul 21, 2010)

Try Equilibrium instead of Cal-Mag with the R/O water. It has been great for me.


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## doc111 (Jul 22, 2010)

TearDrop said:


> Try Equilibrium instead of Cal-Mag with the R/O water. It has been great for me.


What is Equillibrium? Who makes it?


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