# Alcohol Tincture



## Hobbes (Oct 29, 2008)

I found good recepies for three methods: Hot Extraction, the quickest extraction of cannaboids (20 minutes); suprisingly the Cold Extraction next (2-3 days); and the Warm Extraction longest (30-60 days).

--

*Hot Extraction: *

This is a simple and efficient 4 Step process.

*Ingredients:*
1/8oz high quality cannabis
2 oz Bacardi Rum  151 proof


*Process Summary:*

1. Chop cannabis very fine (coffee grinder works great)

2. Place in a shallow pan (pie pan with aluminum foil works great) and bake at 325°F for 4-5 minutes.

3. Remove from oven and place cannabis and place in 2 oz of rum (use a small wide mouth mason jar)

4. Simmer in a water bath for 20 minutes. Maintain temperature of the rum/cannabis mixture between 150°F  165°F.

5. Strain the mixture and store.


*Dosage:*
One eyedropper is very nice. Two puts you in space. But you should self-titrate. Effects take about 1.5 hours to begin (at least in myself) and lasted for 5 hours (1 dropper) to 7-8 hours (2 droppers).


*Process detailsreferences and rationalizations:*
1. Chop the cannabismore surface area gives means a faster and more efficient extraction.

2. Bake the cannabis. 
In whole-plant cannabis, THC content is expressed as THCA (tetrahydrocannabolic acid) prior to decarboxylation into THC, which takes place when cannabis is heated during cooking, and smoked or vaporized ingestion. THCA is a mild analgesic and anti-inflammatory but does not have good affinity with our CB1 receptors, so in order to make a THC-rich tincture that has many of the same therapeutic effects as smoked ingestion (including rapid absorption, quick relief and ease of self-titration), we must convert the THCA in the plant matter into THC prior to extracting it through an alcohol soak. (from Vancouver Island Compassion Society http://thevics.com/cannamist.htm)​THC vaporizes at about 380°F. We want to heat the cannabis to convert THCA to THC, but keep the temperature under 380°F. That is why 325°F is used. Between four and five minutes your oven (and house) will start to smell very strong. This is the time to remove the cannabis from the oven.

Notice also that there is considerable misinformation regarding heating the cannabis. It is true that you don't have to heat it to extract both THC and THCA, but the amount of THC in whole plant preparations is relatively small compared to after decarboxylation of the THCA. So if you want to maximize the strength of your tincture you must heat the cannabis prior to extraction.

3. Use the highest proof alcohol available. In my area this was Bacardi 151. The more alcohol the more efficient the extraction will be.

4. Simmer the mixture. 
This is one of the areas that seems to be most debated. Many recipes call for placing the cannabis (unbaked of course) into the alcohol and waiting 2  6 weeks. The main concern with heating the alcohol is that it is explosive (not exactly true...it is however flammable).

The purpose of the simmering is to heat the alcohol mixture to improve extraction rates and efficiencies. Heating during extraction increases the motion of the molecules (basic physics/chemistry) and drastically decreases extraction times. The boiling point of pure ethanol is 173°F (78°C). We will use the water bath to heat the rum/cannabis mixture to just below the boiling point of ethanol.

Heating the alcohol mixture can be done very safely using a hot water bath. You will need an accurate candy or quick read thermometer. Place about 1 inch of water in a wide, vertical-edged pan (9 wide x 3 high). Bring the water to a low simmer. The rum/cannabis mixture should be in a small (1 pint) mason jar. Do NOT cover the jar.

Put the thermometer into the mason jar and place into the simmering water bath. Bring the temperature of the rum/cannabis mixture to about 165°F (I maintain it between 150°F and 165°F). You want the alcohol mixture to be just barely moving (not boiling, but showing active convection within the mixture). If the mixture starts to bubble too much, just turn down the water bath.

You should have the oven fan on high. You will notice that any alcohol fumes are mixed with water vapor from the water bath and vented out the fan. This combined with the fact that you are trying not to boil the ethanol makes the process quite safe.

5. Strain, titrate, and store.
When you are finished with the extraction you will be left with about 1oz of green dragon tincture. Note that one ounce of the alcohol has evaporated.

Now you should test your eyedropper. In my test 34 full droppers equaled one ounce of liquid (this is a little less than one gram of liquid per dropperful as 29g equals 1ounce).

The liquid should be dark green and smell like cannabis.

6. Dosage.
Everybody is probably different. It takes me 1.5 hours to feel the effects of eating cannabis. Similarly this tincture also takes 1.5 hours to take effect. 

I had tried a tincture someone had made using the cold extraction method with the same amount of cannabis and found that 5 droppers did pretty much nothing.

Using my Green Dragon technique I find that one dropper will bring effects on in 1.5 hours and last 5 hours with 1.5 hours of lingering aftereffects. 

Two droppers gave me a "spiritual dose" (as strong as any brownie I ever had). Effects lasted 7-8 hours with lingering effects for 2 more hours.

This means that 1/8oz of good cannabis yields about 30-34 doses of tincture (1 dropperful is really all I need). And is much more pleasant than smoking (which really is bad for you and your lungs and the reason I've stopped smoking entirely).


This link might be helpful.
Metric Conversion: http://www.worldwidemetric.com/metcal.htm


Enjoy and let me know of your success and/or questions.

Master Wu 
__________________
Alchemist


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## Hobbes (Oct 29, 2008)

When I first met this guy online I didn't realize that he was an activist and people on the forum said that he worked with the DEA. I was spooked and sort of avoided him, looked the other way when I saw his posts in the forum, until I found out more about him. He got me cooking with cannabis and suggested tinctures, but I was making honey oil back then (blech!) and now I regret missing out on instructions from one of the most cannabis knowledgeable people I ever met, and one hell of a nice guy.​ 

Jay R. Cavanaugh, Ph.D.
AAMC, National Director​ 


Many patients who utilize and benefit from medical cannabis do not wish to smoke due to the perceived health hazards of smoking or for other personal reasons. These patients are in something of a bind. Smoking cannabis delivers the active cannabinoids within seconds. Medicine is absorbed in the lungs and goes directly to the brain and general circulation. The same effect can be achieved with a vaporizer, which is safer than smoking burning vegetable matter. Since the effects of inhaled cannabis are so quick, it is easy for patients to titrate their dose by simply waiting a minute or two in between puffs. 

Oral cannabis, such as our Better Bud Butter, is absorbed in a very different fashion from smoking or inhalation. The GI tract gradually absorbs Cannabinoids over the course of one to two hours. Medicine is processed first by the liver, which converts some cannabinoids such as delta nine to delta 11 version of THC. Orally delivered cannabis requires four to ten times the amount of the smoked version in order to achieve the same effect. Orally delivered cannabis can present a problem in achieving the required or desired dose level in any consistent fashion. 

Tincture is designed to address the problems of rapid medicine delivery and consistent dosing. Most tinctures are made to be used under the tongue or sublingually. English pharmaceutical companies are presently working on a cannabis extract "spray" that can be used under the tongue in a similar fashion. These sprays are not expected to be approved for use in the United States for years and will be very expensive. Absorption by the arterial blood supply under the tongue is completed in seconds. One trick is to not swallow the dose as, if swallowed, absorption will be in the GI tract. Many patients, though, add their tincture to a cup of tea or cranberry juice for easy delivery. When tincture is used in a beverage, absorption will be slower than if absorbed under the tongue. While tincture absorbed in an empty stomach is accomplished in minutes, conversion in the liver remains, as does the difficulty in titrating dose. Usually, a tincture dose is delivered by means of a medicine dropper or a teaspoon. A rule of thumb on dose is that patients receive benefit from 3-4 drops to a couple of full droppers depending upon the potency of the tincture and the patients own unique requirements among other factors.

The methods listed below will detail two major methods of preparing tincture. While the methods are optimized for purity and potency, ultimately these will largely be determined by the purity and potency of the cannabis from which the tincture is made. Another item of note in regard to starting material for tincture is the patient or caregiver selection of strain. A rough rule of thumb is to select Indica dominant strains for cramping and muscle spasticity and Sativa dominant strains for pain relief. The reality, though, is often that the strain is unknown or not well characterized. Trial and error is usually required to acquire the appropriate strain and the proper dose level.

*General Rule*s:
Tincture is an extraction of active cannabinoids from plant material. Cannabis contains many chemicals that can either upset the stomach or taste nasty. One of the goals of extraction is to secure the cannabinoids while leaving out as many of the terpenes and chlorophylls as possible. Both heat and light adversely effect cannabinoids and should be avoided or minimized. Tincture should be stored in airtight dark glass containers kept at room temperature or below. Avoid plastic containers. The ethanol in the tincture may solubilize some of the free vinyls in the plastic.


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## Hobbes (Oct 29, 2008)

*Cold Method with Ethanol

*Making tincture cold preserves the integrity of cannabinoids. To be potent, this method requires starting material high in cannabinoid content such as flowers or kief made from trim and leaf. The material must be mold free and dry. Drying can be accomplished in the freezer (-4-10 degrees Celsius) or better yet by placing in a liquid proof bag into a dry ice/ethanol ice bath (-70 degrees Celsius). Once water has been removed then the surface area of the starting material requires expansion. This can be accomplished a number of ways but two ways stand out:
_Using flowers (bud)_- Place dried buds in a coffee grinder and pulse until thoroughly ground but not powdered. 

_Making kief_- Rub dry trim and leaves over a silk screen. Collect the powder the comes through the screen. It should be a very pale green. "Kiefing" is an age old way of extracting trichomes from plant material.
Whether kief or ground bud is used both should kept ice cold for this preparation. Similarly, the ethanol to be used should also be ice cold throughout the process.

_Selection of alcohol_- ethanol or ethyl alcohol is the form of alcohol that can be used by humans. The proof listed on commercial alcohol refers to the percentage of ethanol that the beverage contains. The proof is twice the percentage, so 80 "proof" means that the mixture contains 40% ethanol. The higher the alcohol content used, the better the extraction will work. Ideally, 200 proof ethanol would be best except that ethanol cannot be distilled to this proof so benzene is used to remove the last vestiges of water. This makes "pure" ethanol poisonous. 

Many folks use "Everclear" which stands at 190 proof or 95% ethanol. Everclear has no taste. Apparently, Everclear is not available in all States. A close second choice is 151 proof rum. This is a light amber liquid that is 75% ethanol that has a sweet taste. One of our caregiver writers will use nothing but Korbel brandy because she likes the taste. Others use iced Russian vodka. These "normal" distilled spirits are 40% to 50% ethanol. Some patients find that the higher proofs ethanols like Everclear and 151 rum burn too much under the tongue. If burning is a concern consider a high quality 90-100 proof Vodka.

_Cold Extraction and purification_- Use at least one ounce of starting material to each pint of ethanol. Place cold powdered kief or ground cannabis flowers together with ethanol in a glass quart-mixing jar. Close the jar tightly and vigorously shake for five minutes then return to the freezer. Continue to agitate the mixture every few hours with refreezing. Continue for a period of two to three days. 

Pour the cold mixture through a double thickness of sterile cheesecloth. Save the cheesecloth "ball" for topical uses or use the material to make bud butter once dried. The liquid collected through the cheesecloth should then be filtered twice through a paper coffee filter. Use gloves throughout the process, as it is necessary to squeeze the cheesecloth and coffee filters to facilitate the extraction. Without gloves some of the material will be absorbed on the skin.

If Everclear is used the tincture will be pale green to golden. If 151 rum is used an amber tincture results. Dark green tinctures mean that excess plant material is present. This does not mean that the tincture will not be potent, just taste nasty. When Everclear is used, various flavor extracts may be added (vanilla, raspberry, etc.). Be careful to use only a few drop of flavor extract.


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## Hobbes (Oct 29, 2008)

*Traditional or Warm Method

*The old fashioned (and effective) way to make tincture from trim, leaf or "shake" is to grind the plant material to expose surface area. A fine grind is not needed and will just make the tincture cloudy. A rough chop will do. Most folks can&#8217;t afford to use kief or bud for tincture but may have leaf handy. If so, this is the way to go. Use ethanol as described above in the same proportions. The key difference is that in this preparation the materials are kept warm (not hot). Light must be avoided. 


Place the ethanol and chopped cannabis in a large glass Mason jar. Shake at least once a day. Place the jar in a brown paper bag or otherwise shield the jar from light. Leave in a warm spot (near a window) for 30-60 days. The mixture will turn a very dark green. Strain as previously described through cheesecloth. Save the "shake ball" for topical applications. 

While this method produces a nasty tasting tincture, it is powerful. It may upset some fragile stomachs. It is recommended that Warm Tincture be used orally in cranberry juice or coffee with sugar. Keep the filtered tincture in light blocking glass jars or bottles in a cool dry place (refrigerator or freezer is fine). The shake ball should also be kept in the freezer. For topical applications, just take out the cold shake ball and apply a few drops of fresh tincture to the cloth then hold it on the affected area for a few minutes with gentle rubbing.


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## Hobbes (Oct 29, 2008)

If you get into tinctures and eventually want to use more potent alcohol, without tracking down Everclear, you can distill regular vodka to have nearly as high an alcohol content as Everclear. Take a look at the Smartstill, like using a coffee maker.

https://secure.brewhaus.ca/index.asp...&CategoryID=31


If you want to stay away from alcohol here's a thread on glycerine tinctures:

https://www.rollitup.org/cooking-cannabis/124769-glycerine-tincture-24-hours.html


If you have advice,other methods, or just stories please post - experience helps.




.


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## Hobbes (Oct 29, 2008)

I thought that since this was a tincture I'd include it in this thread even though it doesn't use alcohol.

.

*Glycerine-based Tincture

*You need to use food grade U.S.P glycerine, this can be relatively hard to find inexpensively but a gallon lasts a LONG time. 

Glycerines have a shorter shelf life than alcohol based tinctures and while they can sit on the shelf I refrigerate mine. Vegetable glycerine has nearly no impact on blood sugar or insulin and is very low in calories (4.3 per gram). It's sweet taste makes the tincture more palatable than the alcohol based tincture and is a suitable substitute for those concerned with alcohol consumption. 

Add the amount of cannabis that you desire for potency. I added 6 oz of roughly trimmed (finger trimmed the leaves off) cannabis to 1 gallon of glycerine. For your personal preference add more cannabis or less depending on desired potency. I blend mine, using a coffee grinder, blender or if you are lucky enough to have a Vita Mix. Make sure there is no other product matter in whatever you use. I use a clean basting brush to clean out my Vita Mix when I am done powdering my cannabis. 

Place in a crockpot on low. Some crockpot's low settings are too high so you may not be able to use yours. A "Keep Warm" setting if you have it is the best choice. Too hot, and you are killing the properties you are trying to extract, you want the mixture to be as warm as possible without boiling, I left my tincture like this for 24 hours. I have heard people leaving the tincture from anywhere from 4-6 hours to 3 days. You can try the tincture at intervals to decide when you are done. REMEMBER that glycerine tincture retains heat VERY WELL, do not burn yourself!! 

If you do not have a crockpot you can place the herbs in a clear, sealed jar in a warm, sunny spot and accomplish the same thing over 4 weeks. Some people make their "sunshine tinctures" over 2 weeks. I do not feel that is long enough, especially in colder weather. Some leave them in the sun for up to 12 weeks. I have never seen a need to go that long myself. Shake each day to mix the herbs in. 

When ready to strain use cheesecloth and a strainer to extract the cannabis debris, the THC has been extracted and the tincture is ready to use. The best way to store is in a glass amber bottle. A good place to obtain a large bottle for the bulk of your tincture is a brewery store that has supplies to make wine or beer. I also obtained a few small amber bottles with eye droppers for convenience. It takes a lot longer to strain glycerine than it does alcohol, the tincture will drip when strained instead of flow. 

AAMC: Glycerine-based Tincture


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## alishabree (Nov 11, 2008)

something else that may make it a bit better would be using a herb press <-------(is the one im buying).


 it's that last little bit of tincture in the herbs that have the most concentration of the herb's compounds you want.

Im going to be buying a herb press ill let everyone know how it works out for me.


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## bubbleinthebrain (Nov 11, 2008)

seriously man.... I really think you're wasting your money.

Squish two bowls together for the same effect...


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## alishabree (Nov 19, 2008)

bubbleinthebrain said:


> seriously man.... I really think you're wasting your money.
> 
> Squish two bowls together for the same effect...



ok i posted my results on my thread but going to put it here too. 

my 114lbs ass can not press it like herb press can and for $79 cant beat it. 

I tried it with just squishing two bowls at first but all it did was (1)make a mess, and (2) left me with a bunch of wet herbs. so then i put the stuff i couldnt get out by me siting, standing, leaning, twisting, pressing, on, into the press. then got the rest out, the herb was dry. i used the stuff i hand squeezed and it was ok. but the stuff that came off the press was OMG good. well i back that press 100% call it a waist of money if you want but im a believer . not to mention its so much easier to just put it in the bowls and stick it in the herb press and turn the screw.


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## Hobbes (Nov 20, 2008)

Thanks Alishabree, that's a cool press.

Do you dry your bud completely before pressing? Are you getting resin or a water based solution from the plant?

.



.


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## poplars (Jan 1, 2009)

ahh I forgot to heat the weed at 325 for 5 mins to do THCA -> THC . . . I'm doing a vodka tincture with sugar-leaf trim. but I'm keeping the jar in a cool dark place for 10 days, shaking daily. 

does skipping this step basically kill my chances of a good tincture that'll get me high?


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## Hobbes (Jan 12, 2009)

*"ahh I forgot to heat the weed at 325 for 5 mins to do THCA -> THC . . does skipping this step basically kill my chances of a good tincture that'll get me high? "*

There seems to be two schools of thought on that issue. From your description you seem to be doing a traditional Warm Extraction, which doesn't call for pre-baked buds. And it works. On the other side Dr Jay says:

*"In whole-plant cannabis, THC content is expressed as THCA (tetrahydrocannabolic acid) prior to decarboxylation into THC, which takes place when cannabis is heated during cooking, and smoked or vaporized ingestion. THCA is a mild analgesic and anti-inflammatory but does not have good affinity with our CB1 receptors, so in order to make a THC-rich tincture that has many of the same therapeutic effects as smoked ingestion (including rapid absorption, quick relief and ease of self-titration), we must convert the THCA in the plant matter into THC prior to extracting it through an alcohol soak. (from Vancouver Island Compassion Society http://thevics.com/cannamist.htm)

THC vaporizes at about 380°F. We want to heat the cannabis to convert THCA to THC, but keep the temperature under 380°F. That is why 325°F is used. Between four and five minutes your oven (and house) will start to smell very strong. This is the time to remove the cannabis from the oven.

.

Notice also that there is considerable misinformation regarding heating the cannabis. It is true that you don't have to heat it to extract both THC and THCA, but the amount of THC in whole plant preparations is relatively small compared to after decarboxylation of the THCA. So if you want to maximize the strength of your tincture you must heat the cannabis prior to extraction."* 

.

I don't know what, if any, effect the extraction process has on turning the THCA psycoactive.

Think about it this way - if you took some brownie batter that hardens at room temperature ... and mix in an ounce of primo ground bud ... then let the brownie/ground bud mixture dry at room temperature ... and ate a brownie ... would you expect to get high? I think the effect would be very small, it's making canna butter or oil and heating for hours that make the bud psycoactive.

I'm concerned that 325 F will boil off some resin so I heat my bud at a lower temperature for longer. I've got a Volcano and I'm low on bud now so I'm clipping and vaporizing the same day. I bought a little toaster oven and bake my freshly clipped bud at 190 F for 1 to 3 hours and get a decent high. I'm experimenting with different cooking times, haven't found that 3 hours is any better than 1, but I'll keep experimenting.

.

If you're tincture is not potent and you want to salvage the cannaboids for another try ... heat the tincture to around 80-90 C to boil off the alcohol. The Honey Oil will drop to the bottom of whatever water is left (if you're using everclear you may want to add some water before heating). Cool in fridge for an hour, pour off the water, scrape up the honey oil, heat it to turn psycoactive, make tincture. 

The nice thing about this extra step is that you leave all the terpins and chlorophile in the water left over from the first extraction. I've done this once when the tincture wasn't potent and got some smokeable honey oil.

.


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## mannurse801 (Jan 14, 2009)

I like doing 250 for 10-15 min.... prevent any accidental vap.


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## patjack (Feb 7, 2009)

Hi Hobbes,

Great thread I will be trying this shortly using the heat method ( no patience of course) 

My question is this,

When I make thc pills using coconut butter, I use a crock pot with the coconut butter and use trim (all the trim I use has glands no straight fan leaves) what i notice as far as effect is it works great but has a very heavy munchie inducing sedative effect. Very strong yes, but everytime I take them I eat until I am almost sick, and then I am wiped out. So I am wondering what your thoughts are on the water cure with the trim before I do the heat method with everclear. I am wondering if this will get rid of some of the heavy stuff from the dope? Also do you know if after I make the tincture if I can then put a droplet of tincture in my capsule so i don't have to drink it or will this slow down delivery as it will have to be digested versus being absorbed through the blood veins under the tounge.... hope i didn't ramble but i am not to confident about that...

Thanks again this is great info!


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## Hash Lover (Feb 8, 2009)

Here's a good thread also on "Green Dragon", quite a few people sharing their experience. I read the whole thing a while ago, good reading for sure. What I do is like this but I cook it down into something I can smoke. It still has to be decarbed in the oven if it has to much veg matter in it. I tried doing it with out the baking and it can be done but the percent of veg matter has a lot to do with it coming out any good. It doesn't have to do with the thca=thc conversion but rather getting rid of things like the chlorophyll and what else might vaporize out of it when it is baked. I like to use what would be low grade hash when I am running off a batch doing ice water ectraction. Doesn't need baking. And can be cooked down to an oil or keep going to get something easier to use.
http://boards.cannabis.com/concentrates/82380-definitive-green-dragon-revised-updated-combined.html


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## Hobbes (Feb 13, 2009)

hey patjack!

*"When I make thc pills using coconut butter, I use a crock pot with the coconut butter and use trim (all the trim I use has glands no straight fan leaves) what i notice as far as effect is it works great but has a very heavy munchie inducing sedative effect. Very strong yes, but everytime I take them I eat until I am almost sick, and then I am wiped out."*

Water curing will get rid of most of the terpins and chloriphile, it will make things easier on the stomach if that's what's making you sick.

*"So I am wondering what your thoughts are on the water cure with the trim before I do the heat method with everclear. I am wondering if this will get rid of some of the heavy stuff from the dope?"*

Yes I believe it will get rid of some of the fuzziness and slightly reduce the sedative effect. 

There's a great thread on water curing in the Harvest and Curing section, some guys were talking about ... CBD or CBN perhaps ... being water soluble and many of us from the thread noticed a clearer, more up high with water cured bud.

Another thing to consider is the strain you're using - we could water cure White Rhino until the Great Lakes dry up and it'll still sit us on our ass. If you're strain is known for giving you the munchies and knocking you out, change strains if you want a different effect.

https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/102641-greenx-how-tos-how-water.html

https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/102336-comparing-air-water-cure-w.html

.

*"Also do you know if after I make the tincture if I can then put a droplet of tincture in my capsule so i don't have to drink it"

*Yes, this would be fine if the capsule doesn't disolve. It'd be a race.*

"or will this slow down delivery as it will have to be digested versus being absorbed through the blood veins under the tounge"*

Yes, if you swallow the tincture without holding it under your tongue for sublingual _absorption_ you will not get high as quickly, but you will get just as high. Or stoned. Just the time difference for absorbing the cannaboids. 

http://www.coe.uh.edu/archive/science/science_graphics/sciencegr1.html

.


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## Hobbes (Apr 21, 2009)

Thanks to forum member Scotts A Buzzen esquire for allowing me to steal his intelectual property. +rep

.

Tincture

Many patients who utilize and benefit from medical cannabis do not wish to smoke due to the perceived health hazards of smoking or for other personal reasons. These patients are in something of a bind. Smoking cannabis delivers the active cannabinoids within seconds. Medicine is absorbed in the lungs and goes directly to the brain and general circulation. The same effect can be achieved with a vaporizer, which is safer than smoking burning vegetable matter. Since the effects of inhaled cannabis are so quick, it is easy for patients to titrate their dose by simply waiting a minute or two in between puffs. 

Oral cannabis, such as Black Out Bud Butter, is absorbed in a very different fashion from smoking or inhalation. The GI tract gradually absorbs Cannabinoids over the course of one to two hours. Medicine is processed first by the liver, which converts some cannabinoids such as delta nine to delta 11version of THC. Orally delivered cannabis requires four to ten times the amount of the smoked version in order to achieve the same effect. Orally delivered cannabis can present a problem in achieving the required or desired dose level in any consistent fashion. 

Tincture is designed to address the problems of rapid medicine delivery and consistent dosing. Most tinctures are made to be used under the tongue or sublingually. English pharmaceutical companies are presently working on a cannabis extract "spray" that can be used under the tongue in a similar fashion. These sprays are not expected to be approved for use in the United States for years and will be very expensive. Absorption by the arterial blood supply under the tongue is completed in seconds. One trick is to not swallow the dose as, if swallowed, absorption will be in the GI tract. Many patients, though, add their tincture to a cup of tea or cranberry juice for easy delivery. When tincture is used in a beverage, absorption will be slower than if absorbed under the tongue. While tincture absorbed in an empty stomach is accomplished in minutes, conversion in the liver remains, as does the difficulty in titrating dose. Usually, a tincture dose is delivered by means of a medicine dropper or a teaspoon. A rule of thumb on dose is that patients receive benefit from 3-4 drops to a couple of full droppers depending upon the potency of the tincture and the patients own unique requirements among other factors.

The methods listed below will detail two major methods of preparing tincture. While the methods are optimized for purity and potency, ultimately these will largely be determined by the purity and potency of the cannabis from which the tincture is made. Another item of note in regard to starting material for tincture is the patient or caregiver selection of strain. A rough rule of thumb is to select Indica dominant strains for cramping and muscle spasticity and Sativa dominant strains for pain relief. The reality, though, is often that the strain is unknown or not well characterized. Trial and error is usually required to acquire the appropriate strain and the proper dose level.

*General Rules:*

Tincture is an extraction of active cannabinoids from plant material. Cannabis contains many chemicals that can either upset the stomach or taste nasty. One of the goals of extraction is to secure the cannabinoids while leaving out as many of the terpenes and chlorophylls as possible. Both heat and light adversely effect cannabinoids and should be avoided or minimized. Tincture should be stored in airtight dark glass containers kept at room temperature or below. Avoid plastic containers. The ethanol in the tincture may solubilize some of the free vinyls in the plastic. 

*Cold Method with Ethanol*

Making tincture cold preserves the integrity of cannabinoids. To be potent, this method requires starting material high in cannabinoid content such as flowers or kief made from trim and leaf. The material must be mold free and dry. Drying can be accomplished in the freezer (-4-10 degrees Celsius) or better yet by placing in a liquid proof bag into a dry ice/ethanol ice bath (-70 degrees Celsius). Once water has been removed then the surface area of the starting material requires expansion. This can be accomplished a number of ways but two ways stand out:

*Using flowers* (bud)- Place dried buds in a coffee grinder and pulse until thoroughly ground but not powdered. 

*Making kief*- Rub dry trim and leaves over a silk screen. Collect the powder the comes through the screen. It should be a very pale green. "Kiefing" is an age old way of extracting trichomes from plant material.

Whether kief or ground bud is used both should kept ice cold for this preparation. Similarly, the ethanol to be used should also be ice cold throughout the process.

*Selection of alcohol*- ethanol or ethyl alcohol is the form of alcohol that can be used by humans. The proof listed on commercial alcohol refers to the percentage of ethanol that the beverage contains. The proof is twice the percentage, so 80 "proof" means that the mixture contains 40% ethanol. The higher the alcohol content used, the better the extraction will work. Ideally, 200 proof ethanol would be best except that ethanol cannot be distilled to this proof so benzene is used to remove the last vestiges of water. This makes "pure" ethanol poisonous. 

Many folks use *"Everclear"* which stands at 190 proof or 95% ethanol. Everclear has no taste. Apparently, Everclear is not available in all States. A close second choice is 151 proof rum. This is a light amber liquid that is 75% ethanol that has a sweet taste. One of our caregiver writers will use nothing but Korbel brandy because she likes the taste. Others use iced Russian vodka. These "normal" distilled spirits are 40% to 50% ethanol. Some patients find that the higher proofs ethanols like Everclear and 151 rum burn too much under the tongue. If burning is a concern consider a high quality 90-100 proof Vodka.

*Cold Extraction and purification*- Use at least one ounce of starting material to each pint of ethanol. Place cold powdered kief or ground cannabis flowers together with ethanol in a glass quart-mixing jar. Close the jar tightly and vigorously shake for five minutes then return to the freezer. Continue to agitate the mixture every few hours with refreezing. Continue for a period of two to three days. 

Pour the cold mixture through a double thickness of sterile cheesecloth. Save the cheesecloth "ball" for topical uses or use the material to make bud butter once dried. The liquid collected through the cheesecloth should then be filtered twice through a paper coffee filter. Use gloves throughout the process, as it is necessary to squeeze the cheesecloth and coffee filters to facilitate the extraction. Without gloves some of the material will be absorbed on the skin.

If Everclear is used the tincture will be pale green to golden. If 151 rum is used an amber tincture results. Dark green tinctures mean that excess plant material is present. This does not mean that the tincture will not be potent, just taste nasty. When Everclear is used, various flavor extracts may be added (vanilla, raspberry, etc.). Be careful to use only a few drop of flavor extract.

*Traditional or Warm Method*

The old fashioned (and effective) way to make tincture from trim, leaf or "shake" is to grind the plant material to expose surface area. A fine grind is not needed and will just make the tincture cloudy. A rough chop will do. Most folks cant afford to use kief or bud for tincture but may have leaf handy. If so, this is the way to go. Use ethanol as described above in the same proportions. The key difference is that in this preparation the materials are kept warm (not hot). Light must be avoided. 

Place the ethanol and chopped cannabis in a large glass Mason jar. Shake at least once a day. Place the jar in a brown paper bag or otherwise shield the jar from light. Leave in a warm spot (near a window) for 30-60 days. The mixture will turn a very dark green. Strain as previously described through cheesecloth. Save the "shake ball" for topical applications. 

While this method produces a nasty tasting tincture, it is powerful. It may upset some fragile stomachs. It is recommended that Warm Tincture be used orally in cranberry juice or coffee with sugar. Keep the filtered tincture in light blocking glass jars or bottles in a cool dry place (refrigerator or freezer is fine). The shake ball should also be kept in the freezer. For topical applications, just take out the cold shake ball and apply a few drops of fresh tincture to the cloth then hold it on the affected area for a few minutes with gentle rubbing.

.


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## HowardWCampbell (Apr 23, 2009)

Just want to add my .02

I've done a bit of experimenting with oven temps prior to using the stove method. I've tried 325 for 5 minutes, 200 for 20, 285 for 30, and 245 for an hour. I got these numbers from master wu's thread on another board. In my unscientific opinion, I thought 285F for 30 gave me the best results.

For people who have trouble tracking down high % alcohol, you might consider citrus extracts. Most grocery stores carry them in the spice section. Lemon extract is 84% and I believe orange extract is about 79%. I've used the lemon, and it mixes very well with tea.

Great thread Hobbes, let's keep the ideas coming.


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## Hobbes (Aug 7, 2009)

Howard that's a great idea about the extracts at the grocery store, I never thought that they'd have a high alcohol percentage. To be more precise, I didn't think of them at all. +rep

.

I've been experimenting with 150 proof alcohol, glycerin, and using Ice Water kief instead of ground bud. The kief is very high percentage resin and the plant matter is well washed so the taste is very good. I dislike the alcohol taste so I'm concentrating on glycerin. 

I bought some chemistry beakers online but I find pyrex mason jars to work much better and will be safer. I've tried: heated alcohol tincture: room temperature alcohol tincture; alcohol dissolved resin mixed in glycerin; and kief and glycerin mixed at room temperature with an electric mixer. I'm going to add heat from my computer fan after my next batch. The next batch will be done with an autoclave.

Stove top autoclaves






I'm finding the room temperature glycerin tincture made with kief to be my favorite so far, but I haven't been able to make it potent enough yet. Hopefully the computer heat will speed up THC absorption by the glycerin. 

The quest continues, here's a good glycerin tincture write up:

--------

Originally Posted by *savagepossum*

_here is something i found on the net awhile ago: PotDrops(CannaGliss) Sticky 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_Ok so the following is a recipe/method for creating a very interesting excellent substance, which me and some of my friends have come to call *Cannagliss!* It is a *THC based substance* which allows you to get *an almost all-body-stone* with a *method that is easy to conceal*!

It *increases the potency of your weed 16x*, technically, although unless you are very stickly about the directions I am about to give, chances are you wont be able to wait the full time for the drops, or wont have the equipment to get the full and total potential out of the drops.

.

What you need:

- 1oz of good quality bud (quality does make a very big difference in this recipe!)
- 1cup Food Grade Glycerine (available from your local pharmacies or drugstores or health shops)
- Cheesecloth
- A glass bottle with a sealable lid preferably metal.
- A glass dropper bottle
- Your computer exhaust or something to heat it consistently for days on end NOT A HOT LIGHT
- You can of course use considerably less amounts of pot for this recipe. You can use as little as 1 gram of finely ground weed in 8.5ml of glycerine. Increase amounts in proportion so 1/4oz would get a 1/4cup etc etc.

Then you have to *leave the weed in the glycerine for two full months* (thats 6 weeks!), *shaking it* each and *every single day* at least once. *My first batch* I shook maybe *8 times daily*, and had it *consistently heated 10-20 degrees Celsius above room temperature.*

This whole *process can be* exceedingly quickly *accelerated* by the *extra heating and shaking*. It can go *from taking 6 weeks to 2*, and *if you have the right equipment*, it can take *as little as 14 hours.* By simply putting mine in the exhaust of my laptop and keeping it there 24/7 except for when shaking, it was almost ready in about 2 weeks. If I had left it for another week it would have been perfect. The end product should be a pine green colour, and smell exceedingly strong.

.

Once you have *let the drops sit* for long enough *for all the thc to have dissolved into the glycerine*, than you can put it into a glass dropper bottle. If you want to *check the glands of the Herb* to see if there is actually *any THC left*, examine the Herb under a *microscope* before putting the bud into the glycerine, then simply take a piece out of the mix when you want to check it and examine it again under the microscope the change will be very obvious, and you will be able to see if any trichomes remain on the glands. If either you see that there is no more thc left in the pot, or you can see the colour of the *glycerine turn dark* or just wait the full 2 months (this is the best bet always).

.

You can use *pure kief* for this recipe as well, when you do this just *use about 3x as much glycerine as you have kief*, and put the glycerine in the bottom of a very *tall and skinny bottle*, then put the kief on top. *Shake and heat* the same as you would the normal drops. With kief you can actually see whether or not it is entirely dissolved, so simply bottle it minus the straining once everything has dissolved nicely 

.

*Autoclave*

If you have an *autoclave*, or a *pharmaceutical grade glass beaker* with *threadlock top*, than this next method is for you!

Take 1oz of primo bud, *not crushed but de-stemmed and totally and completely dried out.* Toss them into a *screw seal boiling beaker*. Then, you must absolutely *ABSOLUTELY use thread lock on the beaker.* I_f you dont do this, its totally pointless to even try this method._ 

Put the* bud in the beaker with 1 cup glycerine;** boil in your oven or on an autoclave at 155C or 311F;* *leave for 36 hours.* It should be boiling for most of this time, but air should not be escaping the beaker. *Remove and let cool*. Upon cooling it should have separated into a green oily substance (which you want to keep) and a black thick tar, which in this case tested at 12% THC. *The green oily substance in this case tested at 88% THC.* 

The bud should have completely and totally dissolved into the glycerine. That black tar stuff is all the plant material. It can be tossed if you like or you could try drying it and smoking it, its up to you. (Thanks to Quanium for testing this for us!)

Once you have your drops, you can soak some of your normal bud in it to give it an extra little kick. Or you can put a few drops in a joint, or just on the top of a bowl in a bong. But by far the single best way to do this is to put just a few drops under your tongue and hold it there for about 2-3 minutes. Will make you go absolutely mad. The better herb you have, the better this concoction will be.

.

*Dosage numbers:*

- Approximately 2-3 drops per dosage for a good time equals about 6 bowls of good weed smoked in a bong, if the recipe is done properly.

- This means that every ounce of herb and a cup of glycerine mixture you have, you will end up with approximately 4800 drops (or 1600 doses) if strained completely.

- For only *one gram of herb* and *8.5ml* of *glycerine* you will get about *60 doses at 3 drops each.*

- This is comparable to a normal approx *97* *.3g bowls* that you would get *out of an ounce* on an average basis.

.

Then of course there are those of you going "Well this sounds just too good to be true!" Well here is some chemistry for you non believers! *Glycerine is a sugar alcohol, and thc is alcohol soluble*. 

Simple chemistry then shows us then that the* thc will be soluble into the glycerine given enough time*. Now this said, it isnt a 100% alcohol or anything near it, which is why it takes so long for it to sit. 

... then why use glycerine instead of everclear or something like that and just make green dragon? Well *unlike other types of alcohols, sugar alcohols are able to be absorbed exceedingly easily by the arteries underneath your tongue*! And when the *THC binds* to the *glycerine*, this makes it *easily absorbed* into your *bloodstream* on a *direct path* for your brain! The *absorption of THC* into the bloodstream *from smoking joints* sits at about *15%*, the amount for *using a bong ranges from 25-35%* approximately, and the amount for *using a vaporizer or cooking ranges from about 45-55%*. With the *glycerine absorption method* *intake has been tested* with various other drugs (mixed with glycerine as tinctures) with *up to 90% absorption*. This should be about enough proof I think to convice most of the doubters.

.

Now we all know that weed isn't unhealthy for you if taken in right, so what about glycerine?

Well, *glycerine is in your toothpaste*, in *lubricants*,* skin care products*, used in *cough syrups* *So its safe to ingest*. Is it safe to smoke? Well glycerine is an almost globally used compound in everyone's favorite flavored smoke - Shisha.
_
.


_


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## dankillerbs (Aug 7, 2009)

HAS ANYONE EVER ADDED WATER TO THIER TINCTURE AFTER EXTRACTION? I did this in attempt to dull the everclear sting... instead it just seperated the resin that was previously dissolved in the alcohol... im now left with a weak tincture with globs of dark oil floating around and settling on the bottom... Is there anything I can add to the mix to re-dissolve the oil? Or should I evaporate all the liquid and try re-dissolving in pure alcohol without watering down??? ANY THOUGHTS PLEASE???!!!???


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## Hobbes (Aug 7, 2009)

*"HAS ANYONE EVER ADDED WATER TO THIER TINCTURE AFTER EXTRACTION? 

I did this in attempt to dull the everclear sting... instead it just seperated the 
resin that was previously dissolved in the alcohol... im now left with a weak 
tincture with globs of dark oil floating around and settling on the bottom... 

Is there anything I can add to the mix to re-dissolve the oil? 

Or should I evaporate all the liquid and try re-dissolving in pure alcohol 
without watering down?"

.

*LOL! 

Yes, I do this to get the exact result you mentioned. No worries, you're going to be even happier with your tincture in a few hours.

.

If you do an alcohol extraction you get a lot of the terpins and chlorophyll that make your tincture
taste like ass water, dan discovered a great way to remedy this. 

Resin (witch contains the THC) is alcohol soluble but not water soluble. If you either:

1. Add more water and Boil off the alcohol while leaving the water (<100C)

2. Add copious amounts of water to your tincture

There will be too little alcohol % to hold the resin (THC) in solution and the resin will float until 
the percentage of alcohol gets small enough that the resin is heavier per volume than 
the alcohol-water solution. The resin will drop to the bottom of the jar.

.

_I find this a bit strange since alcohol is less dense than water and the resin should sink quicker in a high alcohol % solution than a low alcohol % solution. Perhaps because alcohol is a solvent for resin, but the phenomina seems counter intuitive.

Anyone else get this? Your alcohol tincture evaporates off a bit and the resin that comes out of solution floats around, then if you add more water or boil off the alcohol it sinks? _ 

.

When you have most of the alcohol evaporated add some more water and put the
jar in the fridge for a couple of hours. The resin will settle to the bottom. Drain off the 
water *into another jar*, leaving only the resin. 

Make sure the foul tasting water and alcohol are gone, add a small amount of *
water* down the side of the jar so you don't mix up the dissolved resin and gently rinse. Dump the foul water into the foul water jar. Put the foul water jar back in the fridge and repeat until you get no resin residue on the bottom of the jar.

Now the fun part. 

1. To your good resin jar - add your choice of solvent: glycerin or alcohol.
2. Shake or use a single beater mixer, until you have a solution clear of residue.
3. Enjoy.

Ya done a real good thing Dan! 

ps if you want to get rid of the alcohol sting go to your local pharmacy and pick up a 
100 ml bottle of glycerin for $3.50. Glycerin is a sugar alcohol and will dissolve the resin.
Look above and to previous pages for recipes and tips.

.


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## dankillerbs (Aug 7, 2009)

Radical! This helps a lot! Thanks Hobbes! In the future, is there anything i can add to my tinctures thats not straight alcohol to help with the everclear sting? Something that wont seperate the resin from my mix? Or am I better off sticking with straight everclear??? Thanks again! 

Also, do you do this intentionally to purify your tinctures? Or am I better off doing this as the first step by soaking my shake before I extract to remove impurities?

THANKS!!!


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## dankillerbs (Aug 7, 2009)

So I just poured the alcohol/water mix into another jar and evaporated the liquid off and got a tiny bit of hash oil... I then added straight everclear to my jar caked in resin, heated it a little... and wha-la! All the resin dissolved nicely and its much stronger now with a better taste! So, the chlorophyll and nasty stuff is still in that hash oil I got from the liquid then, right? Also, if I still wanted to use alcohol for my tinctures but add some filler so it doesnt sting as much, could I use glycerine like you metioned? Or should I go one way or the other?

Thanks for taking the time to respond!
P E A C E


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## HowardWCampbell (Aug 8, 2009)

Wow Hobbes, that is a lot of info to digest. 

I've been making alcohol tinctures for a few months now, but for some reason I always ignored glycerine.  My biggest problem with tinctures has always been that I just don't like alcohol very much. So glycerine should be perfect...if I can find any around here. I searched walmart last night with no luck. I'll check the drug store next. Any suggestions as to what it would be located near in the drug store? I don't like asking for help finding it, because the first question they always ask is "what are you using it for?" Any suggestions on how to answer that question?

Thanks for the great "how to", +rep as soon as I spread enough around to get you again.


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## Hobbes (Aug 8, 2009)

*"is there anything i can add to my tinctures thats not straight alcohol to help with the everclear sting? Something that wont seperate the resin from my mix? Or am I better off sticking with straight everclear?"*

Hey Dan!

I'd go with glycerin - it's a cannabis resin solvent and sugar alcohol. I've done a couple of jars with a mixture - disolving the resin in 150 proof alcohol, reducing until small amounts of resin fall out of solution in resin, add glycerine.

If I were to do an alcohol extraction then wanted a different medium I'd reduce the alcohol tincture and drain off the excess, then use glycerin only with the resin. Tastes much better and as you found - you can add less medium and get more potent tincture.

As well, I've read (*uncomfirmed*) articles claiming that glycerin is absorbed sublingually into the blood much quicker than alcohol, and the cannaboid absorbtion rate is close to 90% compared with 40% for alcohol.

*"do you do this intentionally to purify your tinctures?"*

I use to but now I use the kief from my Ice Water extraction, washed and concentrated. Much better taste, you can make it as potent as the glycerin will hold the dissolved resin in suspension.

*"Or am I better off doing this as the first step by soaking my shake before I extract to remove impurities?"*

Everclear will dissolve the resin much quicker than glycerin, and you can add enough glycerin to make the tincture potent, and it will taste better. For me I'd absolutely do it, but some people might find the extra work not worth the effort. 

Has anyone has trouble with this method? Less potency? Changing the effects of the tincture?

*"the chlorophyll and nasty stuff is still in that hash oil I got from the liquid then, right?"*

The chlorophyll and terpins are water soluble so they will stay in solution in the water after the alcohol has been reduced. The trick is to get enough water mixed in to keep all the unwanted junk in solution - before reducing - so the foul tasteing particles don't settle with the cannabis resin at the bottom of the jar. If this happens you transfer that garbage to your new tincture.

*"Also, if I still wanted to use alcohol for my tinctures but add some filler so it doesnt sting as much, could I use glycerine like you metioned? Or should I go one way or the other?"

*I would go with Glycerin, but reduce the alcohol solution and get rid of the terpins/chlorophyll first.*

.




*


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## Hobbes (Aug 8, 2009)

*"Any suggestions as to what it would be located near in the drug store?"*

In the section by the cough medicine, band aids.

*"I don't like asking for help finding it, because the first question they always ask is "what are you using it for?"*

Tell them that your throat is sore from smoking so many joints and you want to take a few drops of glycerin to sooth it.

Pharmaceutical grade Glycerin is used on sore throats, cuts, anywhere that moisture is needed. Excellent multi purpose product. 

Don't worry about them asking, and if they do - *

"Sore throat, I want my remedy natural"* or *

"My girlfriend has a sunburn and her mother told her that glycerin will moisturize the burn."* or *

"Just show me where the fucking glycerin is asshole."
*
I usually use number 3.

.


the glycerin we use is just vegetable glycerin, not nitroglycerin.

*"Glycerol is a chemical compound also commonly called **glycerin or **glycerine. It is a colorless, odorless, viscous liquid that is widely used in pharmaceutical formulations. For human consumption, glycerol is classified by the FDA among the sugar alcohols as a caloric macronutrient. ... The glycerol substructure is a central component of many lipids. Glycerol is sweet-tasting and of low toxicity."*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycerin

.


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## dankillerbs (Aug 8, 2009)

*"Just show me where the fucking glycerin is asshole!"*

HaHa, go with that one! Its not like your buying the shit to cook up meth, right? They wont think twice about it... also glycerin is used in liquid light shows with water, food coloring, and an overhead projector... ya know all those crazy multi-colored light shows that bands started doing in the 60's? Yup, just tell em' your trippin' out some friends at a party with it! Ha, ive actually been looking for some for that very reason! 

SO....glycerin is colorless, odorless, and tasteless then, right? 

You could use a glycerin extract topically then, right?

Thanks again for taking the time HOBBES! Great Thread!

P.S. Im kinda new here, do I need to post a certain amount of times before I can add +rep for people? You'll get some for sure when I can Hobbes!!!


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## Hobbes (Aug 8, 2009)

*"do I need to post a certain amount of times before I can add +rep for people?"*

I dunno.

*"You'll get some for sure when I can Hobbes!"

*Please no. I do these threads as a repository of all the web research I do, everyone adds by posting information or asking question that direct my research in areas I may never have thought of venturing. I learn more from researching to answering peoples' questions than from thinking up ideas of my own.

.


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## dankillerbs (Aug 8, 2009)

Well thanks anyway... I started another thread asking for help on this topic and got a short response that wasnt nearly as helpful as yours... And the respondee was saying he better get some +rep for his response...? So I figured thats what people were hoping for by responding, instead of just doing it to help someone out... Anyways, me telling you thanks is all the +rep you'll get from me then!
Thanks,
P E A C E


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## Hobbes (Aug 18, 2009)

I find it hard to believe that I haven't plagiarized Subcool's tincture recipe yet, I'll fix my oversight now.

.
*
Subcool*

*Glycerin tincture 101* 
https://www.rollitup.org/subcools-old-school-organics/45008-glycerin-tincture-101-a.html#post482828
 I wanted to do a step by step on making no alcoholic tincture and a report on my first batch. I want to thank Kareem who turned me on to this amazing medicine and who guided me through my first batch.

I used 2 ounces in this 2 quart jar and just covered the weed by a few inches with Glycerin.

Lets walk through the process.

This is the final product and let me tell you this was made with pure buds of OV, JC and JTR and it will get your attention!
Ok first we take some food grade Glycerin

Some nice chopped bud or shake this is from seeded plants of JC,JTR,SQ,and Urkle 

    

.


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## Hobbes (Aug 18, 2009)

_Subcool_

Next we want to make sure the jar is dry and clean

So I fill the jar loosely and add lots of kief on top.

The stuff settles very slowly so keep topping it off.

It will take a few days to soak all this up and I just leave it alone during this first period. 


    

.


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## Hobbes (Aug 18, 2009)

Subcool

So I turned the jar each day for 60 days working it 3-5 minutes every morning and after 60 days you get this.

I will use a french press next time as the bags were a bit messy but very effective. I don't use this 190 bag making bubble so it came in handy.

Tip make sure to twist the top shut so leaf doesn't drip into the final tincture and you have to strain it twice.

I am sorry about these shots my hands were covered in THC bearing Tincture and I took these with my elbow. 

    

.


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## Hobbes (Aug 18, 2009)

Subcool

Last step is to heat the open jars at 150 for like 10 minutes to evaporate any moisture I am still working on this last step.

.

_These next words are from My patient and almost made me cry!! - Subcool_

.

"Taking Tincture My Way & Medicinal Effects Experienced These tincs are great.

And yeah i reckon they could be some of the best meds for migraines. As in Migraines, normally once you feel it, your body will be diverting blood away from your stomach and to your head. This is why many pain killers simply do not touch a migraine. The med just doesn't get digested.

But with the tinc, the THC is getting absorbed into the blood stream via the mucus membrane, hence the reason when you keep it in your mouth for longer, and brush your teeth your absorbing THC a lot quicker and much more efficiently than if you simply eat it.

With the addition of clove oil you have a perfect tooth ache remedy. Even seams to work on apses, but only on pain of course, you would still need antibiotics and or lancing."

.

"This morning, I didn't take Tincture






I tried to keep the bong hits low, to see how my body would respond.




Yucky, I'll say. First my heads seems to be just a little slower, (its always hard for me to think), my housework seems harder to finish; I start o.k., but then my energy just goes away. I'm beginning to feel shakey and nauseas. My non-cancerous Fibroid (fatty) tumors are reminding that they are there. 

All of this is just after about 22 hours without full med treatment. 2 - 3 days, and I would be in my own world again, because of the pain that would return. But tonight I will be taking Tincture, and wake up feeling just fine. MzJill & Subcool told us when we received this treasure, that not everybody feels the Medicinal Effects, of Tincture. Perhaps its not the right method of delivery for them. I do not feel 'High', or 'Druggy', from Tincture. I only feel a relief from Migrane Headache pain, and a decrease in shaking. I do feel a warm, calm feeling, of over-all well being. 

Thank you again, MzJill & Subcool, for introducing me to Tincture. I love it! Comfy in the Mist! 

Joymum




"

 
https://www.rollitup.org/subcools-old-school-organics/45008-glycerin-tincture-101-a.html 
__________________
*http://www.dankgearonline.com

.


*


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## Hobbes (Aug 18, 2009)

Where do I find *Food Grade Glycerin*?

Usually baking section of groceries store, health food store (watch out for the hippies), or get pharmaceutical grade glycerin at the drug store in the band aid or sore throat section. You can get 100ml bottles of glycerin for $3.50.

This is *NOT* nitroglycerin! 

It's a vegetable extract that is sweet, hardly effects insulin production, is used in icing sugar. Can be used as a hydrator for sunburns & cuts, to sooth sore throats, as a sweetener in your coffee or in a fish slurry as an industrial lubricant.

If you're nervous of asking for some say ... 

_"I want to use it instead of sugar because I read on the internet that it has a very small effect on insulin compared with sugar."_

(ie won't make you fat - do not go near diabetes, don't make them concerned.)

And you did read this on the internet. And it does have a very small effect on blood insulin levels.

.


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## Hobbes (Aug 18, 2009)

*What Are the Benefits of Vegetable Glycerine?* 

Vegetable glycerine is a compound that comes from vegetable oil, usually palm or coconut. It has strong humectant properties, meaning it is able to retain moisture. It is clear, colorless and very sweet. Because it is soluble in water and alcohol, natural and easily produced, it is beneficial for manufacturing purposes and is one of the most common additives in a range of products from cosmetics to food. There are many benefits to vegetable glycerine. 

.

*General Skin Care*

There are many anti-aging benefits when using vegetable glycerine. Its excellent moisturizing properties aid in keeping skin looking young and healthy. Retaining moisture is vital for keeping skin in its best condition. It also draws oxygen into the skin, which is beneficial for anti-aging as well. There are many factors that cause dry skin and accelerate aging, and vegetable glycerine is an effective agent against these elements. It can be used in face washes and moisturizers.*

.

Acne*

Vegetable glycerine is hypoallergenic, and people suffering from acne can use this product without worry that it will aggravate their condition. Vegetable glycerine is also very antibacterial and aids in preventing breakouts and keeping pores clear. It also can speed healing of present acne lesions. It is not inflammatory and will not irritate skin like many other products with harsh chemical ingredients*

.

**Skin Conditions*

Eczema and psoriasis are two skin conditions marked by infection, irritation and itching. Many moisturizers used by people with normal skin conditions are either ineffective or can aggravate the condition. Vegetable glycerine is a very pure, nonirritating substance and can ease the discomfort of these conditions. Its antibacterial properties can also protect the skin from infection. It is best in its pure form for these conditions. Using a typical store product that contains it as just one of many ingredients will not have the same effect. Do not use it on infected skin that is weeping or oozing.*

.

Food

*Even though vegetable glycerine is a carbohydrate, it does not have a large effect on blood sugar and can safely be used by people using insulin. Its sweetening and moistening properties make it a useful ingredient in many types of foods. Vegetable glycerine is also a natural preservative.

.

*Herbal Preparations

*This substance is a powerful solvent and is useful in preparing herbal remedies. It can be used in place of alcohol when extracting the compounds from plants. In addition, its sweet flavor can make herbal preparations with unpleasant tasting herbs more palatable.*

.

Hair Care*

Vegetable glycerine's moisturizing properties are beneficial for hair as well as skin. Dry, brittle hair will benefit from using hair care products made with it. Direct application of the oil can be extra powerful. If someone suffers from a dry, flaky scalp, rubbing vegetable glycerine into it can alleviate this irritation. This can be particularly beneficial for African-American women who tend to have these types of hair issues. In addition to its moisturizing properties, it also strengthens the hair and makes breakage and split ends less likely.

.


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## HowardWCampbell (Aug 18, 2009)

Great info Hobbes. I did finally find some glycerine. I had to try 4 different stores, but the big walmart in the next town had it.

I will try mixing up a small batch later this week. 

I looked all over the internet, and it seems like there isn't much choice but to wait the 60 days or so. I found lots of people that were unhappy with the results of trying to speed up the extraction by using heat. I think every success story I found had at least a 30 days wait time, most were closer to 60 though.

I'm about to harvest a gh "church" this week, I'll make sure to set aside a few grams for my tincture.


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## The Grinch (Aug 23, 2009)

Hey hobbes

could you use a pressure cooker instead of an autoclave for the glycerin tincture?


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## Hobbes (Aug 23, 2009)

.

Grinch I believe you can use a pressure cooker instead of an autoclave, the difference between the two is:

*"An autoclave is a pressure cooker of sorts, an autoclave is much faster ... **The difference between a pressure cooker and autoclave is that a pressure cooker first heats up and then slowly builds pressure after you cap it. By doing this it takes more time for the internal temperature to reach what it's supposed to. (pv/nr=t)** "*

Adding some water to the bottom of the pressure cooker (tincture mixture in a steel cup) to help the steam build quickly might help since it's the pressure we want. 

I'm going to use an electronic pressure cooker with some water added and the tincture cup in the strainer insert to keep it off the P.C. bottom while the pressure and temperature increase. A poor man's autoclave, 'cause those things are bloody expensive!

.
*
"**The difference between a pressure cooker and autoclave is that a pressure cooker first heats up and then slowly builds pressure after you cap it. By doing this it takes more time for the internal temperature to reach what it's supposed to. (pv/nr=t)

A pressure cooker ran properly at 15 psi for 2 hours will definetly sterilze your grains with high success. Just make sure you cook it at least 60-90 minutes and you shouldn't have problems.

An autoclave on the otherhand instantly goes to the pressure you set it at and begins the heat cycle. This acheives proper internal temperature more quickly and allows for shorter 'cook' cycles. Throw in 6 bags of grain, shut a door and press start. These are a lot more pricey but sure are nice.

IMO: you should do yourself right and buy an All American pressure cooker. These things are bullet proof. Make sure to get at least a 15qt, I would reccomend the AA921 which is 21 quarts(150$ on egay used). If you're feeling ballzy, AA makes a 44qt pressure cooker. Thats a lot of spawn!"* _(note: probably the smallest model for us)
_
.


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## The Grinch (Sep 15, 2009)

Saw this. Interesting with oil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqje5StAhCI&feature=related


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## Hobbes (Sep 15, 2009)

Thanks Grinch 

.


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## true (Oct 3, 2009)

I would just like to say this thread is wonderful! I've been doing research on tinctures too and I would like to add one thing:

Alcohol tinctures have a longer shelf life and kill mold (for those of you who recycled some infected buds) so keep that in mind if you plan on storing your tincture for a long time.

I am wondering, *will heating and/or freezing my ALCOHOL tincture increase potency?* I've heard mixed reviews.

I am also *wondering if anyone has tried using FRESH trim and FRESH buds for their tincture?* This is what I am doing because from what I've read, cannabinoids break down as bud dries, and I want to get every last bit of the plant. Is this counterintuitive/fallacious?

I've also read that grape extract can aid in the extraction process? Any word on this?

*One tip when grinding your bud in a coffee grinder: Grind your fresher/greener trim first (to clean out any spent coffee grounds you may have missed) then grind your highest quality material second. This way you can scrape off the resins left along the side of the coffee grinder, its kinda like finger hash  Finish by grinding a bit of fresh or dry stem. All of the remaining resins on the sides will have stuck to the fibrous ground stems, making the cleaning process much more efficient and easy.


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## grunt (Oct 5, 2009)

Hey guys, i'm a newie here.

thanks for starting this thread, Hobbes, i really want to make tincture 2 weeks out from exams, now .
I've got a couple of questions, though.

I plan to do a hot extraction, but i don't have a coffee grinder. what can i use to achieve similar results?
would there be any difference if i used a convection oven? i figured since it's portable i can take it outside (less stink), but the air circulation will throw off my baking time a little bit. plus the fan might just blow all my weed everywhere so i'll have to make a little foil envelope or something to keep it in.
also, about how much rum (volume wise) is in an oz? I'm australian, and maybe it's just an american thing, but our alcohol is sold by the volume.

Cheers
grunt.


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## Bucket head (Nov 18, 2009)




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## Hobbes (Nov 18, 2009)

Hey guys, sorry for taking so long to get back to the thread.

.

*"I plan to do a hot extraction, but i don't have a coffee grinder. what can i use to achieve similar results?"*

A mortar and pestle once the plant material is bone dry. It'll grind into a flour easily. You could use a steel pot or bowl and a wooden dowel rounded on one end.

Another excellent option would be a rolling pin. Probably the simplest, but it won't give you as fine a flour as a M & P. Plant matter must be bone dry.

.
*
"would there be any difference if i used a convection oven? i figured since it's portable i can take it outside (less stink), but the air circulation will throw off my baking time a little bit. plus the fan might just blow all my weed everywhere so i'll have to make a little foil envelope or something to keep it in."*

Convection oven outdoors is great, I often use a hotplate for boiling bud and dregs out doors.

.

*"also, about how much rum (volume wise) is in an oz? I'm australian, and maybe it's just an american thing, but our alcohol is sold by the volume"*

1 oz alcohol ~28.37 ml

A standard shot of alcohol in Brittan is 25 ml.

.


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## Hobbes (Nov 18, 2009)

.

Hey True

*"I am wondering, will heating and/or freezing my ALCOHOL tincture increase potency? I've heard mixed reviews."

*My understanding - once the THC is decarboxalized (by air/water/bake cure) any additional heat will degrade the THC, making the tincture more sedative and fuzzy headed until too much heat destroys all of the THC over time. Freezeing will slow or stop the degradation of THC but will not aid in decarboxylization. _The only method of freezing that may help with potency (I haven't read anything on it yet, speculation) is a cold alcohol extraction in the freezer below 0 C._

.

*"I am also wondering if anyone has tried using FRESH trim and FRESH buds for their tincture? This is what I am doing because from what I've read, cannabinoids break down as bud dries, and I want to get every last bit of the plant. Is this counterintuitive/fallacious?"*

I do, but how I prepare the fresh bud depends on the method that I'm using. If the method has enough heat and time to decarboxalize the THC during the process then I put the fresh bud in as is. If it's a cold or warm method I bake the bud (in a toaster oven, in my grow room, beside my carbon filter) to do a quick cure. The cannaboids must be cured somehow before you ingest.

.

*"I've also read that grape extract can aid in the extraction process? Any word on this?"*

No, but if the grape extract is acidic it may help dissolve the resin quicker. Thanks, that's some good stuff to think about. I use grape seed oil as a medium, it doesn't dissolve resin any quicker than olive oil. I'll pick up some grape seed extract.

.


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## Hobbes (Nov 18, 2009)

The Grinch said:


> Saw this. Interesting with oil.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqje5StAhCI&feature=related


.

That's a great video, thanks Grinch!

Make a light grape seed oil tincture and cut it with alcohol for quick absorption. Fantastic!!

.


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## true (Nov 19, 2009)

Hey just wanted to keep this awesome thread going by adding a VERY useful link I've found while reserching.

THC Vaporization points:

*http://www.cannabis-vaporizer.com/marijuana-vaporization-temperatures.php
*
(c to f conversion: http://www.wbuf.noaa.gov/tempfc.htm)

Also, I believe that heating pads DO aid in decarb. for the old fashioned method because it has made my tincture much more 'milky' since using it.

For reference, Sunbeam heating pad surface temps:

http://www.sunbeam.com/Faqs.aspx?section=&fid=74

Thanks to Sweet Baby Ruth & Hobbes for inspiring me to go ahead and try this. Nice info on the grape seed oil, let me know how the seed extract works, if at all.

*Does anyone know if its possible to boil everclear @ 225F? Or will it ignite? I know the boiling point of alcohol is 172F...*


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## vh13 (Nov 19, 2009)

true said:


> *Does anyone know if its possible to boil everclear @ 225F? Or will it ignite? I know the boiling point of alcohol is 172F...*


Maybe a good pressure cooker can contain those gasses and raise the boiling point. Don't know how much though, just that they can cook beans MUCH faster then stove-top. 

Make sure you have a good one, don't want the top to blow off and release a huge cloud of alcohol vapor. Test a new pressure cooker on a batch of beans or something first. Definitely do it outside as well, so if it does blow no worries.


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## Hobbes (Nov 19, 2009)

.

*DIY: make your own Press Bowl *

 .







.

I've read that there's a fair bit of butter (glycerine/alcohol/oil) left in the marijuana ball after hand squeezing and a press bowl would help get most of it out. I bought a 4" garlic press to see how it would work and it collapsed the first time I used it. The least expensive Press Bowl I could find online was $90 usd so I thought of how I could make one quick and cheap.

I salvaged the perforated bowl and pressing pad from the Garlic Press and picked up a C clamp at Canadian Tire. The metal pot is a dipper with a thick steel bottom and the cup is from a metal thermos to add strength to the pressing pad. I wrap the dreg ball in 3 layers of cheese cloth to keep the dreg flour from pressing through the holes in the garlic cup. I'm looking for a large metal coffee filter to line the garlic press cup, to keep the tiny sediment out of the butter. I've got to find an inflexible metal disk to replace the cup for pressing pad reinforcment, the C clamp bends it in the center.

.







.

I started with about 165 ml of butter and got about 25 ml from the Press Bowl - about 15% of the total used and almost 25% more butter than if I hadn't pressed. And hopefully the most potent butter. 75 ml butter from the 1 gallon bubble bag; and 30 ml from the metal strainer. In reverse order from the extraction order. The next picture shows the 3 grades of butter, each hardened in a 250 ml measuring cup; below is each of the tools used to extract the respective butter disk above. 

. . . Drip drain, hand squeeze, bowl press . . .














This time I was making Lava Butter with 2 cups of Volcano dregs (coffee grinder-ed to just under 1 cup of flour) and about 165 ml of butter - so I could make two trays of brownies with 1/3 cup of Lava Butter per tray.

It's important to crank the handle as hard as you can (of course), then put the whole press in the oven at ~80 degrees C (buy a C clamp without baked on enamel if possible, no plastic or paint in the oven). The butter has probably started to harden by this time, the heat will liquefy it again. It takes time for the butter in the middle of the ball to make its way through, you'll probably re-tighten a half dozen times before you have most of the butter out.

The large garlic press was $10 at the grocery store (or walmart); the C clamp was $15 at the hardware store. Get a large C clamp, you need a big handle to crank some press on. If you can fashion a larger handle you'll be able to crank harder and if you have a vise you can make the clamp stationary while you tighten.

Can anyone come up with a better design, a way to attach a larger handle; a way to vise the clamp so it's stationary; how to recover a larger percentage of used butter; where to buy silk screen in small towns (craft shops don't carry it); etc. I lost a lot of butter in my bubble bag, I'd like to just use silk screen so the butter will rinse off in hot water. I have to scrape the pots and measuring cups better as well, a lot of butter to be recovered. The other thing I have to watch is the temperature and length of simmer, I've been reading through this forum to improve my cooking.

.


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## true (Nov 19, 2009)

Haha, loving the clamp. Just got done straining mine by hand for the first time. It was very trial and error and lets just say my hands were completely green and I ended up falling asleep 45 minutes later 

*Word to the noobs: be organized before straining, it can be messy.
*
What I did was just press two metal bowls together, agitating the shake ball each time in between. As far as your clamp goes hobbes.. All I can think of is building a frame for it out of wood, to hold it in place. As for the screen, good luck I have the same problem. Also, you MAY be able to find an industrial sized washer for the metal piece. Other than that, I found that by making smaller shake balls, I was able to squeeze more out.

Any tips on how much to reduce the tincture? *Thicker or thinner, syrupy or creamy viscosity?*
Also, *should I let all the shake from the shake balls dry out* first now that I'm done using them?


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## The Grinch (Nov 21, 2009)

Why don't you just dry the bud/chop out and then smoke it, instead of trying to squeeze every last drop out...
Once the alcohol had dried up, wouldn't it be like bud in hash/honey oil?


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## true (Nov 21, 2009)

The Grinch said:


> Why don't you just dry the bud/chop out and then smoke it, instead of trying to squeeze every last drop out...
> Once the alcohol had dried up, wouldn't it be like bud in hash/honey oil?


Because that defeats the entire purpose, which is to extract the active ingredients without smoking. Also, I would just like to say that I just tested my first batch and an eyedropper of the shit I just made will have you blazed in ways you never thought imaginable. TRUST ME. The old fashioned method is extremely potent!


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## The Grinch (Nov 21, 2009)

Sorry mate, that was less a statement, amd more a question. I finished a batch 2 weeks ago, and am currently letting some of the alcohol evaporate out, but am left with all this volcano leftovers covered in the dried out tincture and was considering smoking it instead of chucking it, like honey bud. Anybody have any experience?


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## the church man (Nov 22, 2009)

what is the shelf time for these methods? i might to half alcohol and half glycerine but i'm wondering for how long do these keep? i would prefer to store them in a dark place, no fridge availability.

what do you guys think?


*subscribed*


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## potka (Dec 4, 2009)

alcohol tinctures last pretty much forever from what i've heard. Glycerine has a pretty short shelf life. I heard when using glycerin it's better to keep it refrigerated after making it or else it wont last too long.


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## potka (Dec 4, 2009)

also i had a question I used a mix of the warm and cold extract methods. First i ground up a little less then 3 grams of herb and used that with the warm method. But i was left with a golden amber liquid. I preheated the cannabis by using a lightbulb vap LOL but it worked. I'm dissapointed it came out this color instead of the green i see. But i assume it's because i only used 80 proof vodka. SO after straining all the herb out i opened the grinder up and plopped some kief in there. And followed the cold extraction method, which is now sitting in the freezer. My question is will the 80 proof not turn green? also now that i'm doing the cold method straining the kief out seems like too much of a chore, since the plant pieces are so tiny. Would it be harmful to consume the kief? ALSO in the cold method i was wondering if i should keep it in the freezer as it doesn't exactly specify in the instructions.


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## Hobbes (Dec 4, 2009)

.

*"I'm dissapointed it came out this color instead of the green i see. But i assume it's because i only used 80 proof vodka"*

That and perhaps the time, a longer extraction will leach out more chlorophyll - where the green color comes from.

.

*"My question is will the 80 proof not turn green?"*

You're going to need more time and cannabis with a lower percentage alcohol. If you can't get Everclear and don't like the taste of 151 proof rum you could distill vodka into a higher proof. You don't want the green, it's part of what tastes awful. The green just indicates a lot of extraction has been done. 

http://www.stillsmart.co.uk/

*"also now that i'm doing the cold method straining the kief out seems like too much of a chore, since the plant pieces are so tiny. Would it be harmful to consume the kief?"*

No, just leave it. The longer it's there the more can be disolved by the alcohol, it will be absorbed in the digestive tract rather than sub sublingually

.

*"ALSO in the cold method i was wondering if i should keep it in the freezer as it doesn't exactly specify in the instructions."

*Yes the freezer.

.


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## potka (Dec 4, 2009)

Thank you for answering! just one more question haha 
would you recommend putting the mixture in a hot water bath? 
i did it with the bud and it seemed to make a bit of difference


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## The Grinch (Dec 4, 2009)

When i bought glycerinne it had a used by date 6 months after the purchase date.
Hopefully when you buy yours it will have some sort of expiration indication.


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## newbie grow420 (Dec 4, 2009)

alishabree said:


> ok i posted my results on my thread but going to put it here too.
> 
> my 114lbs ass can not press it like herb press can and for $79 cant beat it.
> 
> I tried it with just squishing two bowls at first but all it did was (1)make a mess, and (2) left me with a bunch of wet herbs. so then i put the stuff i couldnt get out by me siting, standing, leaning, twisting, pressing, on, into the press. then got the rest out, the herb was dry. i used the stuff i hand squeezed and it was ok. but the stuff that came off the press was OMG good. well i back that press 100% call it a waist of money if you want but im a believer . not to mention its so much easier to just put it in the bowls and stick it in the herb press and turn the screw.


Couldnt you have just used a C clamp and get the same effect


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## Hobbes (Dec 5, 2009)

.

*"would you recommend putting the mixture in a hot water bath?"*

Do you mean putting the alcohol and bud mixture in ... a measuring cup ... and the set the cup in a pot of hot water; or pour the alcohol and bud mixture into the pot of hot water? Sorry for over thinking that, early in the morning.

I heat my oil, butter and glycerin mixes by putting them in a Pyrex measuring cup, covering with tin foil, and setting the cup in a bath of hot water in my slow cooker. Like a double boiler except it doesn't boil. I'm going to pick up and electric pressure cooker to speed the heating.

We can't do this with alcohol tinctures because the alcohol will start to boil off at 79C (172F). If you do use a hot water bath with alcohol be sure to use a thermometer to keep the temperature below boiling or you'll end up with a cup of hot water and bud with a little resin extracted from the bud. The resin will come out of solution and turn into sediment at the bottom of your cup of water as the alcohol boils off and the proof of the mixture goes down. You could literally start with a liter of Everclear, put the cup in a hot bath, and come back and have 50 ml of water and the bud. So ... be careful with alcohol mixes and hot water - thermometer and monitor close. 

If you want to get the resin from your tincture - bad taste, not potent enough, want to use a different solvent, etc - you can boil off the alcohol and the resin will settle as sediment at the bottom of your container. Pour off the water (containing the chlorophyll and terpins) and you have honey oil. There are more efficient ways of making Honey Oil, but this is a good way to salvage resin from a poor alcohol tincture.

Pouring the mix into a bath of hot water you obviously don't want to do. This is probably not worth mentioning but I haven't had my first Volcano bag yet so ...

.

The C-clamp herb press works great, but obviously it's not going to be as easy to use as a professionally made model. The efficiency will be close but you've really got to work the clamp hard to get all of the tincture from the bud ball - this can be tricky after you've heated the clamp in the oven to liquefy the butter. With a cold alcohol mixture this wouldn't be a problem but the C-press (good name) has to be held upright or the liquid will pour out of the cup - when twisting hard it's easy to forget . Fashioning a larger handle out of pipe would help, something that can be put on and taken off the clamp for ease of use. A stand (large vise) to attached the C-clamp to when it comes out of the oven would help.

.


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## scoobyman (Dec 5, 2009)

this a awesome new of this till recently. just a question is the bud ball your sqeazin the left over stuff from the tincture that youve strained off and now your sqeezin it off to get more resin? out or is it from makin butters n the like. sorry for the dumb question. so much good stuff to look up, sick of smokin found a new hobby it looks like lol. also if its not from the tincture does it become compost for the garden. cheers


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## Hobbes (Dec 5, 2009)

.
*
"is the bud ball your sqeazin the left over stuff from the tincture that youve strained off and now your sqeezin it off to get more resin? out or is it from makin butters n the like."*

From Both. Whenever you do an extraction the most concentrated solvent (alcohol, oil, butter,etc) will be what's left in the bud ball after we squeeze it. Getting the last of this solvent (for me 25% of total butter recovered, alcohol will be less) will give you more tincture and more concentrated tincture. For example, with the butter I may get 25% more recovered with the C-press but there may be 40% of the extracted cannaboids in that butter.

*"so much good stuff to look up, sick of smokin found a new hobby it looks like lol. also if its not from the tincture does it become compost for the garden."*

There is so much, that's the idea of this thread - gather it all here for easy reading.

Making tinctures and concentrates is a great hobby, I ordered a test tube/holders set over the net but I find it easier to use Pyrex canning jars - tougher and screw on lids. The test tubes are great of experimenting, makes me feel like a mad scientist.

Speaking of making gold from compost - for years I threw out my dregs from my Volcano, garbage. A couple of months ago I started making Lava Butter from the dregs and can get a potent tray of brownies from a weeks worth of dregs (2 cups). With a simple refining or two the butter tastes like it was made from Honey Oil. Gold from Garbage.

.

The Grinch posted this link to a video of an oil/alcohol spray tincture that is absorbed sublingually (under the tounge). I'm working on a simple grape seed oil tincture and using that with Everclear in a spray bottle. I can't buy Everclear around here, the best I can get is 151 proof rum (Everclear is 190 proof - 95% alcohol). But I have been making grape seed oil tincture and refined a small batch in a canning jar, the taste improvement is phenomenal. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqje5StAhCI&feature=related

.


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## Hobbes (Dec 5, 2009)

.

Here's the procedure for refining. Works great for butter and oil, obviously not so good for alcohol or glycerin. You loose butter and oil every time it touches a surface.

.

Refine your Cannabutter. (Cannaoil)

After you make your Cannabutter (by whatever method):

1. Bring a pot of water to a good boil and reduce heat to simmer.
2. Put all of your butter in the water, as soon as it's melted turn off the heat.
3. Stir for 15 minutes, taking the floating butter to the bottom of the water, stirring in a top to bottom circular motion.
4. Put the pot in the fridge (on a pad so the fridge doesn't melt) until the butter hardens, then put the pot into the freezer for a few minutes to make it more solid. (for ease of extraction)
5. Use a sharp knife tip to cut the butter from around the outside of the pot. Lift out the Cannabutter disk, let the water drip off.

Your butter, or oil, will have bonded with the cannaboids so when you put the butter in hot water the water soluble terpenes, chlorophyll and plant matter will go into solution with the water and the Cannabutter will float above the foul mix. You will have fantastic butter, like you made it from honey oil.

I started refining all of my butter after making Lava Butter from Volcano dregs, simple and makes eating canna-foods a whole new experience.

.


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## potka (Dec 5, 2009)

THANKS your thread has given me a bunch of help i'm going to be enjoying this later tonight


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## The Grinch (Dec 6, 2009)

that looks awesome


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## the church man (Dec 7, 2009)

for the freezer method: are we looking for a temp thats well below freezing or will cold enough to freeze water be sufficient? i'm thinking that i will throw my jar outside into the winter environment for a month or so.... i figure that it'll be cold enough but that i'll leave it for the extra time just in case. its below freezing here everyday now so i suppose that i have a natural fridge/freezer. is a month outside in the cold overkill?

is it recommended that i heat in the oven to decarboxylize regardless of the method that i plan on doing? or will the time be enough to break down the THCA?

if the highest quality material remains in the leftovers, couldn't i just grind it more beforehand and then not strain it? i'm just throwing around some ideas and i can see how this might be an issue if taken under the tongue. do you think it might irritate my tongue or cause any problems (i'm thinking salivitory glands etc)? i'd prefer to take this under the tongue but i'm apprehensive about the straining process. 

i'm going to be making a small batch at first and i just want to ensure that i'm not wasting anything.

how many success stories are there with the quick method? or should i just wait the time for full effectiveness?

does the glyderine need to be refridgerated once made? i don't see why it would need to be but i'm just curious. if it will last six months unrefridgerated then i don't have any worries. i will just make small batches more often. this is no problem once the ball gets rolling as i can just stagger the process.

i think thats all i have to say right now.... 

Hobbes: you've been an amazing help and inspiration. thanks for the plethora of great information and links etc.


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## grunt (Dec 7, 2009)

ok did the hot method but i messed with the concentration a little bit. i used a gram instead of an 8th and i may have used a bit more alcohol than was necessary. i tried several sprays sublingually and got a little high. it was very subtle and made me a little giddy so i probably needed more. i decided i'd evaporate some of the alcohol later and hit a waterfall instead . I'll try and see how it goes if i cut half the alc out.


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## potka (Dec 7, 2009)

@thechurchman i keep mine on my window sill inbetween the screen and the window. living in illinois right now keeps her cold enough and i dont want to have the chance of some one finding it also your going to have to stain it. No matter how small you grind them up the particles are still there and you really dont want to be consuming them, one of my friends got sick from eating straight bud. Unless perhaps your using a small amount of kief then it might be fine. and yes the glycerine will need to be refrigerated. When the grinch said use by 6 months. That means unopened the glycerine can be used up to six months after purchase. Also if your looking for an alternative to using vodka and such. I recently tried making a tincture using pure lemon extract, it's working very well and the liquid is turning a nice green color already. And since the lemon extract is basically alcohol and lemons it will last a very long time. You can find it at most grocery stores, if not all (found it at the one i work at), and there is no age limit to buy it. It's decently expensive tho a 32 oz bottle would have cost me 20 dollars, since i work there i snagged it for free. I'm sure at other stores you can find it in a smaller bottle as 32ozs is a little overkill.


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## Hobbes (Dec 7, 2009)

.

grunt try evaporating off all of the alcohol (heat to 90C for a while). All of the resin will fall to the bottom of the remaining water as sediment. You can add cold water to keep all of the chlorophyll and terpins in solution, so little settle out of solution with the resin. Put the container in the freezer until it's cold, to take everything out of solution. Don't freeze. Pour out the water, and add the amount of alcohol that you want. You'll get better potency and all of the chlorophyll and terpins will be poured out with the water. You'll basically have a honey oil tincture. It's a great way to save your cannaboids and work on another tincture - there's no need to suffer through a weak foul tasting swill.

.

TCM I'm going to have to research the answers for a few of your questions, I'll post tonight.

***edit: potka and I were posting at the same time, I didn't see his. He has experience with using nature for the cold method, I would (and will) go by his advice.

.


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## the church man (Dec 10, 2009)

there's so much info on this thread!!!!

so amazing... 

ok... i'm going to be making three or four small batches using two solvents (glycerine and citrus extract). for sure i will try the cold extraction with both of them. i am also going to try the quick method for consumption on that day using the extract. 

can i get away with eyeballing the temps or should i go invest in a thermometer?

note: i just found a bag of dank in my winter jacket. i haven't used the jacket since last november so the weed has essentially been curing for over a year. it look so nice and crystally!!! into the tinc it goes!!


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## Hobbes (Dec 10, 2009)

.

*"can i get away with eyeballing the temps or should i go invest in a thermometer?"*

For cold and warm alcohol extractions eyeballing is fine but for all hot extractions we have to be accurate with temperature. For alcohol tinctures if we heat above 79C we'll start to boil off the alcohol and the tincture will have a lower percentage of alcohol, less resin will stay in solution. For Glycerin and grape oil tinctures we have to keep the temperature below the cannaboids boiling point, which isn't hard for cooking tincture but if you're taking your tincture to high temperature be mindful of temp. I use a candy thermometer when I'm making canna maple syrup candies.

.


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## ChemisTree (Dec 14, 2009)

I will add, if they ask you what you're buying glycerin for you can tell them you're making homemade bubble solution for your niece/nephew/child etc.

homemade bubble solutions


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## the church man (Dec 15, 2009)

I looked all over for glycerin and all I could find was the skin moisterizing type. It is not completely pure and apparently it has some type of sudsing agent, similiar to those found in soaps or toothpaste. It is not intended for ingestion. So now I have to find a place that sells food grade glycerin. Where did anyone else find theirs? I wanna get this show on the road. Everyday that I gotta wait is another day I gotta wait, ya know?


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## Hobbes (Dec 15, 2009)

.

I get the pharmaceutical grade from the pharmacy, should be of equal or better quality than food grade. The brands I have may be local brands that are from the same manufacturers as the bottles on your pharmacy's shelves, just a different label. My bottles looks like this except one brand is Pharmasave Glycerin and the other is Exact Glycerin, bought from different stores but exactly the same bottle as this - from somewhere they speak an exotic language beyond my kin.

Look for "*USP*" and you've got what you need.

http://www.cleaning101.com/oleo/USPGlycerin.pdf









.


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## the church man (Dec 15, 2009)

i found some at a health food store. its called "now" and is 100% pure vegetable extract glycerine. came in a purple 4 oz bottle for five bucks. i mixed it with a bit more than three grams of the dankest weed i could find (amazing  )

so around 1.3 fl oz's of glycerin per gram of weed. think this will be ok?

i don't think that i could have used any less as this was just enough to saturate the grindings.

how do you mix the weed evenly? every time i mix it up the green stuff just floats right to the top. i figure i'll mix twice a day.

i plan on doing my first taste test in mid to late january...


can the glycerin tincure be concentrated in the same way that the alcohol tincure can? can i supersaturate the solution with water and have the resin precipitate out of solution? that'd be awesome!!

once again thanks for all the help!


----------



## regrets (Dec 16, 2009)

Amazing thread, I have read through it several times already. Another group of questions for ya though. First off the glycerine tincture methods don't mention heating the weed first for the thca-thc transformation, is it still necessary in these methods (subcools method heated the solution afterward to evaporate water, maybe this works for two reasons?)? Also there are 3 relatively similar glycerine methods, the first of which takes days, and the final two take up to 2 months, is there a difference in either flavor or strength in the methods used? Lastly my concern with the 2 month glycerin method, is that if your glycerin has a 6 month (or so) expiration date on it to begin with, if you spend 2 months creating the solution you have burned off a good deal of time that the glycerine is good for and you are also introducing additives to the glycerine that are probably further degrading the substance and thus shortening the expiration date of the glycerine even further. Is my logic flawed somehow, or is the glycerine good for much longer than I am thinking?


----------



## Hobbes (Dec 16, 2009)

.

*"the glycerine tincture methods don't mention heating the weed first for the thca-thc transformation, is it still necessary in these methods (subcools method heated the solution afterward to evaporate water, maybe this works for two reasons?)?"*

It depends on the process. If you're using the hot method the THC will decarboxylize while heated. If you are using the warm method the THC will cure over a month or two. If we heat the bud to decarboxylize before making the tincture the second heat or time will degrade the THC into CBN. A water cure takes only 7 days, glycerin should give a similar cure.

Hot alcohol and glycerin process are different because alcohol cannot be heated above 78C and even then will evaporate alcohol. Most hot glycerin tincture recipes use a crock pot at close to 100C.

Dr Jay had a strong view on decarboxylizing THCA but from what I've read he was talking about the cold and warm methods of extraction for alcohol, not a hot extraction with glycerin. His glycerin recipes were posted after his alcohol recipes.

My take on it is that we can decarboxylize while making tincture during hot and warm techniques but with the warm technique Doc would cure first. Heating afterwards as Subcool suggests would cure the THCA but might degrade some of the existing THC to CBN. I've haven't experimented with the warm method enough to give a valid opinion.

I wish I were more knowledgeable about this so I could give a shorter answer.

*"In whole-plant cannabis, THC content is expressed as THCA (tetrahydrocannabolic acid) prior to decarboxylation into THC, which takes place when cannabis is heated during cooking, and smoked or vaporized ingestion. THCA is a mild analgesic and anti-inflammatory but does not have good affinity with our CB1 receptors, so in order to make a THC-rich tincture that has many of the same therapeutic effects as smoked ingestion (including rapid absorption, quick relief and ease of self-titration), we must convert the THCA in the plant matter into THC prior to extracting it through an alcohol soak. (from Vancouver Island Compassion Society http://thevics.com/cannamist.htm)

THC vaporizes at about 380°F. We want to heat the cannabis to convert THCA to THC, but keep the temperature under 380°F. That is why 325°F is used. Between four and five minutes your oven (and house) will start to smell very strong. This is the time to remove the cannabis from the oven."

.

Dr Jay: "Notice also that there is considerable misinformation regarding heating the cannabis. It is true that you don't have to heat it to extract both THC and THCA, but the amount of THC in whole plant preparations is relatively small compared to after decarboxylation of the THCA. So if you want to maximize the strength of your tincture you must heat the cannabis prior to extraction."* 

.



*"Also there are 3 relatively similar glycerine methods, the first of which takes days, and the final two take up to 2 months, is there a difference in either flavor or strength in the methods used?"*

All methods should make equally potent tincture if made by a person with experinced with the method. The terpins and chlorophyll will leach out over time or with heat, unless you refine them neither are going to be palitable. I find glycerin tinctures much easier to stomach than alcohol.

.

*"Lastly my concern with the 2 month glycerin method, is that if your glycerin has a 6 month (or so) expiration date on it to begin with, if you spend 2 months creating the solution you have burned off a good deal of time that the glycerine is good for and you are also introducing additives to the glycerine that are probably further degrading the substance and thus shortening the expiration date of the glycerine even further. Is my logic flawed somehow, or is the glycerine good for much longer than I am thinking?"*

Your logic is good, it does spoil over time. If you make enough tincture to worry about spoiling it should be in the fridge or freezer to prolong life.

***edit: As well as storing in a cool place, a dark container will slow THC degradation by light.

.


----------



## The Grinch (Dec 17, 2009)

I imagine bringing a vacuum sealer into the mix might help a bit


----------



## regrets (Dec 19, 2009)

I was thinking about using the cold extraction ethanol method with everclear and kief. Anyone have good suggestions for how to heat kief before starting the extraction?


----------



## Hobbes (Dec 19, 2009)

.

Regrets do you want to cure the kief before making the tincture? If so I would put the kief in a pyrex canning jar that can be heated in the oven, no top; then put the jar on top of a metal tray or pyrex brownie dish (insurance in case the jar cracks); preheat the oven *with an oven thermometer inside for accuracy* (do not trust the oven dial); bake at the temperature and time suggested by the theory you like (account for pyrex jar cooling time); let the pyrex jar cool to room temperature; add your solvent, cover with the top, shake. This way you don't loose resin with dish/tool transfer. As well, the heating will melt the trichomes into shapeless resin and reduce the time it takes to dissolve the resin in the alcohol.

.


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## Hobbes (Dec 20, 2009)

.

*DIY:* crock pot *Alcohol Reflux*: resin *Extractor*, tincture *Refiner*, alcohol *Distiller

*






.

*Crock Pot lid with hanging coffee basket:*







*1 hour of reflux extraction:*






.


I followed a forum link to the Cold Finger Extractor by Eden (diagram and link below) and three things came to mind very quickly:



The diagram brought up an instant image of the evaporation/rain cycle poster in my grade 4 class 35 years ago;
I figured I could make one in less than an hour from kitchen items;
They were charging $395 for the equivalent of a Pyrex coffee pot, Pyrex cone shaped dish, and a metal coffee basket. About $385.05 more than I paid for a much tougher 16 cup Pyrex measuring cup at Canadian Tire and $389 more than i paid for the crock pot above.







http://www.edenlabs.org/home_light_commercial.html

.

A reflux extractor is very simple:


In a closed system the alcohol is heated above it's boiling point (79C) but below water's boiling point (you gotta look that up yourself); 



the heated alcohol rises as steam until it hits the ceiling of our reflux system (upside down crock pot lid), the water stays liquid in the heated reservoir below;
we put ice/snow/cold water on the top of the reflux apparatus (crock pot concave lid turned upside down) so when the alcohol steam hits the cold glass/plastic it condenses and gravity pulls the water droplets down the convex upside down crock pot top until;
the alcohol droplets collect at the bottom/center of the upside down cover and drip downward to the metal coffee screen basket hanging from the cover;
The dripping alcohol (still warm), which is a higher percentage than the alcohol in the reservoir (but not 100% alcohol), drips through the marijuana in the coffee basket carrying: dissolved resin, terpins, chlorophyll and some plant matter into the heated reservoir below.
As well, alcohol steam will rise and work through the marijuana in the coffee basket. (the same way water steam in a coffee maker will rise and go through the coffee grinds and drip bitter coffee after a pot is done, so we remove the coffee grinds as soon as the hot water drips through).
 

.


Now we can: refine the alcohol tincture; remove the honey oil for use elsewhere; and/or distil alcohol. This step couldn't be simpler:




Change the coffee filter for a sold metal cup. Done.
 

The alcohol (and some water) will collect in the cup, most of the water will stay below in the heated reservoir with the resin, water, chlorophyll, terpins and plant mater. If you are refining or extracting honey oil remember to add hot water to the reservoir after the alcohol is extracted to the cup, you want to keep the chlorophyll, terpins and plant matter in solution while letting the non water soluble resin sinks to the bottom. Put things in the fridge until the water is cold before pouring the water out &#8211; so all the resin falls out of solution.

The alcohol collected in the cup will be of a higher percentage than what you started with and will be much cleaner than the reservoir but you may want to distill it again, after cleaning out the reservoir, to make it taste better and to raise the percentage of alcohol. After several reflux distillings we can take 40% vodka up to 60% or 70% - a higher percentage will take a more complex reflux device.

I'm going to refine my tincture and do a butane extraction on the remaining grinds in the basket to see how efficient the reflux extraction was. I'll post some results later today. Anyone who gives this a try please post your results, pics and any advice you can give us.

.

*Items needed:* (substitutions can be made, don't go out and buy anything until we go over what you can replace items with &#8211; ie crock pot &#8211; coffee pot with screw off handle and spout (flat rimed); flat rimmed Pyrex bowl, plate, cooking dish; stove)

- Crock pot 
- Coffee basket
- Wire / screws to connect coffee pot to basket
- Floating kitchen thermometer Fill your crock pot with water and check the temperature at the different levels - we need 80C+, the higher we go the quicker the extraction; if we go too high we evaporate more water.
- Ice
- Towel (to remove the melted ice water from the lid, stay low tech)
- I'm adding an I-bolt for a handle for the concave side, the screw has to hang below to hold the basket.
- Rubber washer to ease tension on the glass cover if you reverse the handle. If you have a glass knob handle just make a wire noose to hang the coffee basket.

.

*Explosion, Fire, Disaster beyond Saving Private Ryan's beach scene warning!*

Alcohol is flamable in it's liquid form at 50%, or 100 proof that the press gang isn't watering down the crews rum. It is explosive in it's gaseous form - the alcohol steam we are refluxing. If a flame hit's that gas - or any gas escaping from the extractor - you are going to have an explosion. No smoking, no flames, no other heat sources, no electric sparks, no wearing wool on a dry day. 

Don't become a statistic. 

This is a relatively safe reflux apparatus because - very little pressure can be built up (the lid will pop up), there is no open flame, there is very little alcohol gas produced in the volume of a small crock pot. *BUT* operator recklessness will cause a problem.

.

I'll be back with results from refining, distilling and running a butane extraction on the plant matter to see how efficient the reflux extraction was. I'll post design improvements and cooking dishes we can substitute for the crock pot and lid - the deeper the "cold finger" comes into the heating reservoir the quicker the extraction (more cold surface area for alcohol condensation). Anyone who has suggestions, advice or a better design please contribute all you can.

.


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## Hobbes (Dec 20, 2009)

.

I did an distillation with the solution in the reservoir and of 250 ml of vodka (100 ml alcohol) I got 50 ml of stinky but clear vodka. I'm going to get a hydrometer tomorrow and test the alcohol percentage. I added more water and am doing another distillation, and I'm doing an extraction of the fan leaves from the same Pandora's Box bud cicles as the sugar leaves for the first extraction. 

.

*French Press Double Boiler Reflux Extractor

*I found a plastic funnel and lined it with a tin foil bladder to hold ice. I used a ridget funnel instead of just tin foil so I could suspend the condensation collection jar. If you build a stand from the strainer (below) you can do without the plastic funnel and have a colder condensor of tin foil.












This is the powder left over from the first extraction, I used about 2 tablespoons of fine powder. I did an iso extraction on the leftover powder after it dried, I'll evaporate off the iso tomorrow to see how efficient the first extraction was. The blue bottle cap for size comparison.






.

My larger crock pot with a plastic cover, doing another extraction now.












.

Here's my latest distiller version, a 1 3/4" pyrex test tube in a french press. A french press makes a great large beaker, tin foil makes a decent seal. In the front left is the clear alcohol distilled from the green swill in the top two pictures. On the right is the french press strainer cut down to fit as a stand for the condensation collector. 

*French Press Double Boiler Cold Finger Extractor*












.


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## slabhead (Dec 21, 2009)

Hobbes, I did my acetone extraction on a small trial run and boiled off the solvent in a double square pyrex bath with boiling water from my crock pot. It worked beautifully seeing that acetone boiling away and leaving the most thick tar like residue. It pretty much looks like what I clean out of a pipe. Damn just a pin point has buzzed the hell out of me. But I'm not sure exactly what to do with it.


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## Hobbes (Dec 21, 2009)

.

Looks fantastic. Where did you get the acetone, I'd like to try it.

What's the smell like? It really looks good.

.


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## slabhead (Dec 21, 2009)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> Looks fantastic. Where did you get the acetone, I'd like to try it.
> 
> ...


Yeah, thanks to you I tried something new. It has an amazing old cedar chest smell to it. It has set up now like tree tar, hard even. I made extra sure I boiled off all the acetone even going one extra batch of boiling water bath to be sure all the solvent was gone. This stuff is potent. I put a little dab on a toothpick into a glass incense pipe and vaporized it. Holy crap! My ears started buzzing and I had to stop. I'm so stoned off just that little puff. amazing. Thank you.

oh I think any good hardware or paint store sells it.


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## Hobbes (Dec 21, 2009)

.

Good Stuff! Thanks again, I've never wanted to try acetone but it doesn't sound nearly so dangerous as a butane extraction. And zero residue!!

.


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## grunt (Dec 21, 2009)

well, i gave my tinc another go after evaporating half the liquid. i tried taking a few drops but nothing was going for me, so i took a leap and swallowed a small capfull. got really buzzed and couldn't sleep! it feels like a superior alternative to smoking since it lasts so much longer. saving the rest for a few concerts and we'll see how my next batch goes .


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## Hobbes (Dec 21, 2009)

.

100 Proof of Distilation






I took this picture, the flame is from the reflux distilled alcohol from my first run.

I started with 40% (80 proof) vodka and distilled it to remove the alcohol from the swill, before taking the resin out of solution. 1/2 teaspoon burned for a couple of minutes. I'll get a hydrometer and see how the percentage is changing with each distilation.

Here's a drop of clear alcohol dripping from the test tube cold finger in the french press distiller.







And 100 ml of clear alcohol in the colector, which I'm reusing on another extraction, and will continue reusing.







.

I'm going to do some research on the best way to get the resin out of solution without taking the water solubles with it. My next addition to the crock pot extractor is going to be a screen over the basket, so the dripping alcohol will spread over the whole basket and not collect in the middle. The steaming alcohol comming from below the basket does a good job of penetrating the bud upwards for resin extraction.

.


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## Hobbes (Dec 24, 2009)

.

*"you could reflux the cannabis herb with water first! this would pull a shit ton of that chlorophille out. the pot looks black when you dry it out after you run the water cure on it two or three times to reduce the yech value to something the desparate can at least tolerate"*

Thanks for the advice on water curing! I've done some 7 day water cures but never with a steam reflux .... I had been thinking about it but was afraid that I'd loose resin in the hot water. I use a very small amount of bud with the french press reflux extractor, about a gram or two. So if the water does melt any trichs it won't be a huge loss and I should be able to recover most of the melted resin when it cools in the water.

Spectacular idea. If it works, and it should, it will reduce the steps needed to extract resin, distill to remove the resin from the alcohol, distill the alcohol from the green swill.

This is what's left after extracting 200 ml of alcohol (started with 250 ml 40% vodka and 150 ml distilled vodka from a prior extraction), the resin is mixed with the gunk. I made a stand for my collection container and strainer out of copper wire, I find it easier than hanging them. I also took the handle off the french press.







I add water and stir to get any chlorophyll or terpen residue off the resin; put in the fridge over night to let the resin settle to the bottom. Then I siphon off the water - putting it through a paper coffee filter. There was no noticable residue in the filter after straining the waste water.







The filtered water is in the jar on the right, the erlenmeyer flask has the bottom water with the resin (same process again for a smaller container) and to the left is the extraction beaker. The green smear is mostly honey oil.







The erlenmeyer flask from below, the resin collecting. I extracted this bunch in the crock pot extractor and most of the resin settled on the crock pots hot surface, sticking. I just poured in some olive oil, disolved the honey oil and poured the oil in a jar. You could scrape if up if you wanted to do something else with it.







Bud pieces after extraction. I didn't grind to a powder to cut down on plant matter getting in the mix. The bud went from green to straw color.






.


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## Hobbes (Jan 2, 2010)

.

*Solvents: FAQ*

"Most of the substances discussed in this FAQ are toxic to one degree 
or another. Usually, after sufficient evaporation/separation/etc., 
such small quantities remain, that there is not a great risk of 
poisoning, but you still need to watch out for contaminants. Many of 
these substances contain contaminants of unknown toxicity. DO NOT 
ingest unless you know what you are doing! You have been warned! 
Also, it is not a good idea to breath the fumes from most of these 
substances. You could get poisoned that way too. When evaporating 
or boiling off solvents, make sure there is adequate ventilation. 
Most of these solvents are flammable (or explosive). When working 
with flamable solvents, avoid sparks (e.g. from electrical switches) 
and open flames (e.g. from gas stoves). Using a hot plate with an 
extension cord to get it away from the house is a good idea. Good 
ventilation is the key to preventing both poisoning by inhalation, 
and explosions resulting from the build-up of flamable fumes.

ALWAYS read the label of the products before you purchase them to 
make sure they contain what you are looking for, and are not mixed 
with a lot of other unwanted things. (See section on PURITY)

P.S. This information is incomplete, Never assume that something is 
safe just because the information is not there!

P.P.S. Only you are responsible for your own actions!!

P.P.P.S. Use your head, damn it!!!


---------------- Answers to Frequently Asked Questions ----------------

1) What is petroleum ether?

A: Petroleum ether refers generically to the lower boiling fractions 
of petroleum. Analytical grades may be quite pure, containing 
only hexane and/or pentane, and having a boiling point no higher 
than 69 degrees centigrade. The lower boiling fractions are most 
useful when the solvent is to be evaporated or boiled off. The 
petroleum ethers most often mentioned on the 'net usually consist 
of somewhat higher boiling fractions of petroleum (e.g. 100 to 
175 degrees centigrade). These are more useful when the solvent 
is to be separated and discarded (e.g. when removing oil soluble 
contaminants from water soluble extracts).


2) Are ether and petroleum ether the same?

A: No! Petroleum ether is a petroleum product. "Real" ether is 
more commonly known as diethyl ether or ethyl ether. Its chemical
formula is C2H5-O-C2H5, and it is not a petroleum product. 
Diethy ether is the "ether" that was traditionally used as an 
anesthetic the early 1900's. Petroleum ether is sometimes 
referred to as "ether" because its solvent properties are similar 
to that of diethyl ether (i.e. it dissolves similar types of 
substances and has a low boiling point). Often (but not always), 
petroleum ether and diethyl ether can be used interchangeably. 
It is usually easier for the layman to obtain petroleum ether.


3) Where can I get petroleum ether?

A: Chemical supply houses usually can provide petroleum ether. Ask 
for it by boiling fraction or specific component (e.g. hexane, 
pentane, etc.). It is best to have a reasonable knowledge of 
chemistry when purchasing chemicals or solvents from professional 
establishments. Many substances are controlled to some extent. 
Often they will ask you to show identification, and sign a 
statement explaining what your intended use is. This information 
can be provided to government agencies such as the DEA. Since 
most laymen would have a difficult time bluffing their way in a 
chem supply shop, they probably would be tempted to use an 
industrial grade which may be more easily obtained from local 
retailers. These may take the forms of mineral spirits, 
petroleum spirits, naptha, automobile starter fluid, etc. See 
the SOLVENTS section below for more information on these products 
and where to obtain them.


4) Where can I get solvent ?

A: Most solvents can be obtained from chemical supply houses. Just
keep in mind the precautions mentioned in #3 above. Many solvents
may be obtained from local retail establishments in industrial 
grades either semi-pure or mixed with other (possibly useful) 
solvents. For over-the-counter sources, see the SOLVENTS section 
below.


5) What are polar and non-polar solvents?

A: The easy answer: Polar solvents dissolve substances that are 
water soluble, but do not dissolve oily substances. Non-Polar 
solvents dissolve oily substances, but do not dissolve water 
soluble substances. Moderately polar solvents have a tendency to 
dissolve both types of substances. Petroleum distillates are 
non-polar, alcohols are moderately polar, and water is polar.

The better (but not necessarily more helpful) answer: Polarity 
is a somewhat vague notion which gives a general idea of what 
will dissolve what. The chemistry-extracting file at hyperreal 
states the following:

Polarity and solubility is a nebulous concept. If you actually
look at what is dissolved by what, you can only find vague
general principles, and plenty of exceptions. Some authors
have tried to make 3 and 4 dimensional polarity or solubility
graphs, and put various solvents in various points as having
a combination of different types of solvent power.

See the SOLVENTS section below for more information on the polarity
of specific solvents.


6) What is the advantage of using a polar (or non-polar) solvent?

A: The advantage is that you are able to dissolve what you are 
after, leaving behind the things you don't want. (e.g. petroleum 
ether will dissolve cannabinoids but leave behind chlorophyll and 
sugars. Alcohols and acetone will dissolve cannabinoids, 
chlorophyll and sugars.)


7) What type of solvent should I use for extracting substance ?

A: Don't ask me. This FAQ was never intended to be a compilation of 
recipes. Look at the various extraction techniques which have 
been posted on the 'net or look in the chemistry-extracting file 
at hyperreal.com. (hint: oily substances dissolve in non-polar 
solvents, most other useful substances will dissolve in water.)


 What is an acid-base extraction?

A: This is a technique in which alkaloids are extracted by taking 
advantage of common solubility properties of most alkaloids. In 
general, alkaloids are soluble in an acidic water solution, and 
become insoluble when the solution is made basic. The solubility 
rules for alkaloids are reversed for non-polar organic solvents. 
The basic form (precipitate) is soluble in non-polar solvents, 
and the acidic form is insoluble in non-polar solvents. Most 
other materials in plants do not have these same solubility 
properties. This allows for the isolation of alkaloids from most 
of the other unwanted junk. For more information on specific 
extractions, see the various extraction techniques on the 'net or 
look at the chemistry-extracting file at hyperreal.com.


9) Why does my extracted material still smell like solvent?

A: Your extract may still smell like solvent because it still has 
some solvent left in it or because some of the aromatic 
components of the solvent are overstaying their welcome. Some 
solvents have a high boiling point which makes it difficult to 
separate it from your extract by boiling it off. Even if most of 
the solvent solution boils off at a lower temperature, there may 
have been a portion of it that has a higher boiling point. One 
way to reduce the amount of excess solvent is to heat up the 
extract even more. Be careful because higher heat may destroy 
some extracts. Another way to lessen the smell is to to let the 
excess solvent evaporate on its own by leaving your extract 
exposed to the air for an extended period of time (anywhere from 
overnight to several days). The down side of this is that the 
longer your extract is exposed to air, the more it can be 
destroyed by oxidation. Warmer temperatures encourage both 
evaporation and oxidation while cooler temperatures do the 
opposite. Room temperature is probably ok for most purposes. It 
may well be next to impossible to get all of the residue out, 
however. Picking a good solvent from the start can help you 
avoid these problems to a large extent.


10) How dangerous are over-the-counter solvents?

A: It is always best to acquire reagent grade solvents, but since 
this IS an over-the-counter solvents FAQ . . .
Some solvents are very dangerous by themselves while others are 
almost harmless. Some contaminants in industrial grade solvents 
could be quite dangerous (poisonous, carcinogenic, flammable, 
etc.), while others are not. Most contaminants are not highly 
toxic, and the government imposes some regulations on 
manufacturers to prevent highly hazardous contaminants from being 
distributed, so one could assume that the risks posed by 
contaminants is fairly low. However, if you choose to use an 
industrial grade, you always run some risk. Research and common 
sense can help reduce this risk. See the section on PURITY below 
for a more lengthy discussion on this topic. See the SOLVENTS 
section below for information on the hazards of specific 
solvents. See the OTHER SUBSTANCES section below for information 
on the hazards of other miscellaneous substances. 


------------------- REFERENCE & GENERAL INFORMATION -------------------

TERMS: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

"bp" = boiling point (or boiling fraction in some cases)
note: boiling points are slightly lower at high altitudes
"C" = degrees centigrade
"dens" = density (in grams per ml unless otherwise specified)
"dis:" = what it dissolves
"F" = degrees Fahrenheit
"LD50" = (lethal dose 50%) dosage at which 50% of test subjects 
(rats, dogs, etc.) died.
"mis" = miscible with
"mp" = melting point
"otc:" = (over-the-counter) where to find it, etc.
"pol:" = polarity ( > = more polar than, < = less polar than )
"prop:" = physical properties
"sol:" = what it is soluble in
"tox:" = data on toxicity. if not listed, DON'T assume it is safe!
"uses:" = common uses. this is nice to know when you are asking a
store clerk to help you find it.


SOLVENTS: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

ACETONE (dimethyl ketone, ketone propanone, propanone)
prop: mp -94.6 C, bp 56.48 C, dens 0.80
dis: water solubles, oils; mis: water, alcohols, chloroform, oils
pol: polar?/moderately polar?
tox: oral LD50 (rat) 9750 mg/kg
otc: hardware stores (acetone)
uses: thinning fiberglass resins, dissolving 2 part epoxies, 
cleaning brushes and tools used with resins or epoxies, 
cleaning greasy stuff
otc: some drug stores (pure, small quantities, expensive)
uses: dissolving fats, waxes, etc.
caution: flamable, reacts with some solvents
note: acetone is also used in fingernail polish remover, but
it is mixed with water, fragrance, etc.
note: may react with some alkaloids, may extract more organic 
compounds than is desirable

ALCOHOL see ethyl alcohol, methyl alcohol, isopropyl alcohol

BENZENE (C6H6, benzol, phenyl hydride, coal naptha)
(included for comparison and cautions)
prop: mp 5.51 C, bp 80.1 C, dens 0.8794
dis: oils; mis: alcohols, chloroform, ether, acetone
sol: slightly soluble in water (1 part per 1403 parts H2O)
pol: non-polar
tox: 3000 ppm vapor considered high concentration, toxic via 
inhalation or skin absorption as well as oral ingestion, 
prolonged inhalation of low concentrations also toxic
otc: none known (you wouldn't want it anyway)
note: do not confuse with benzine which is a petroleum distillate
caution: a recognized leukemogen (causes leukemia)!
caution: highly flamable
caution: can react vigorously with oxidizing materials

BUTANE (C4H10, n-butane, methylethyl methane, butyl hydride)
prop: bp -0.5 C
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
sol: ether, alcohol, water
otc: anywhere (butane cigarette lighters)
uses: lighter fuel, butane torches, curling irons (yes, really)
caution: extremely flamable
note: if you use this, you will have to work with sub-freezing
temperatures or at least higher pressures like a small jar 
with a tight lid (higher pressures tend to raise boiling 
points thus improving solvent capabilities). the advantage 
is that you could boil it off at room temperature!

CHLOROFORM (CHCL3, trichloromethane)
(included for comparison and cautions)
prop: mp -63.5 C, bp 62.26 C, dens 1.498
dis: oils, fats, rubber, alkaloids, waxes, resins
sol: 1mL in 200mL water; mis: alcohols, ether, petroleum ether
pol: non-polar
tox: oral LD50 (rat) 800 mg/kg, prolonged inhalation can cause 
unconsciousness and poisoning (or even death)
otc: none known
note: non-flamable
caution: reacts violently with acetone + base, methyl alcohol + 
sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide

DICHLOROMETHANE see methylene chloride

DIESEL FUEL (fuel oil #2)
composed of heavier hydrocarbons than gasoline
prop: bp higher than gasoline
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: recognized carcinogen, see also petroleum distillates

DECANE (CH3(CH2)8CH3)
a minor component of kerosene, may be a minor component of gasoline
prop: mp aprox -29 C, bp aprox 174 C
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: see petroleum distillates
otc: see kerosene, gasoline
caution: flamable

DIETHYL ETHER (C2H5-O-C2H5, ether, ethyl ether, anesthesia ether, 
ethyl oxide)
prop: bp 35 C
dis: oils, etc.
pol: moderately polar ( < water, alcohols; > petroleum 
distillates and toluene )
tox: moderate oral toxicity, low inhalation toxicity, oral LD50 
(rat) 1700 mg/kg, oral LD50 (human) 420 mg/kg
otc: found in automobile starter fluid
caution: very flamable, can form explosive peroxides with 
prolonged exposure to air
note: this is the ether that was used extensively as an 
anesthetic a few years back

ETHANOL see ethyl alcohol

ETHYL ALCOHOL (ethanol, methyl corbinol, spirit of wine, grain 
alcohol)
prop: bp 78.32 C, dens 0.79
dis: water solubles, oils; mis water
pol: polar? / moderately polar? ( < water; > isopropanol )
tox: oral LD50 (rat) 21,000 mg/kg
otc: liquor store (Everclear, 95%)
uses: party, party, party!
caution: flamable, could get you drunk 
note: there have been reports of people using denatured alcohol as 
a solvent. this may be ok if it is denatured only with 
something that will be eliminated when the solvent is boiled 
off (e.g. with methyl alcohol). if you don't think you can 
eliminate the denaturant, then don't use denatured alcohol!

FUEL OIL (fuel oil #1 through fuel oil #6)
increasingly viscous petroleum distillates, generally with increasing
boiling fractions.
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: see petroleum distillates
caution: flamable
note: fuel oil #1 is kerosene, fuel oil #2 is diesel oil
note: there are not many applications that could benefit from 
using fuel oils as solvents

GASOLINE (petrol, gas, white gas)
composed of octanes, some heavier hydrocarbons (nonanes, etc.), 
and some lighter hydrocarbons (heptanes, etc.)
prop: bp aprox 35-180 C (depending on what it contains)
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: see petroleum distillates
otc: gas stations
uses: automobile, etc. fuel
caution: very flamable
note: gasoline for automobiles contains additives, better to use
white gas.

KEROSENE (fuel oil #1, ultrasene)
composed mostly of heavier hydrocarbons than gasoline (10 to 16 carbon
atoms per chain)
prop: bp 175-325
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: oral LD50 (rat, rabbit) 28,000 mg/kg, oral toxicity is low, 
see also petroleum distillates
otc: fuel distributors, hardware stores
caution: flamable
uses: stoves, heaters, lamps
note: ultrasene is deodorized kerosene

HEPTANE (C7H16)
a component of starter fluid, gasoline, and some petroleum ethers
prop: bp aprox 98 C
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: see petroleum distillates
otc: found in starting fluid and some napthas
caution: highly flamable

HEXANE (C6H14)
a component of starter fluid, and some petroleum ethers
prop: bp aprox 69 C
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: see petroleum distillates
otc: found in automobile starting fluid and some napthas
caution: highly flamable

ISOPROPANOL se isopropyl alcohol

ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL (dimethyl alcohol, sec-propyl alcohol, isopropanol)
prop: mp -89 C, bp 80.3 C, dens 0.79
dis: water solubles, oils; mis water
pol: polar? (hydrogen bonded?), ( < ethanol; >> diethyl ether )
tox: oral LD50 (rat) 5,840 mg/kg
otc: automotive stores (fuel dryer, 99.9%)
caution: flamable
note: rubbing alcohol is usually only 70% alcohol, and 30% water

METHANOL see methyl alcohol

METHYL ALCOHOL (methanol, wood alcohol)
prop: bp 64.8 C, dens 0.79
dis: water solubles, oils; mis water
pol: moderately polar? (hydrogen bonded), ( < water, > diethyl 
ether )
tox: oral LD50 (rat) 13,000 mg/kg, eliminates slowly and can 
build up with repeated exposure/ingestion. toxic metabolites 
include formaldehyde and formic acid. damages optic nerve.
otc: automotive stores
uses: fuel dryer
otc: hardware and paint stores
uses: shellac thinner, alcohol stove fuel
caution: flamable
 note: often mixed with paint removers or varnish removers
note: good at penetrating cell walls and membranes

METHYLENE CHLORIDE (CH2Cl2, dichloromethane)
prop: bp 39.8
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: oral LD50 (rat) 2136 mg/kg, VERY dangerous to eyes, 
produces highly toxic fumes when heated to decomposition 
(e.g. by open flames, etc.), may be carcinogenic in rats
otc: paint and hardware stores (mixed with methyl alcohol, etc.)
uses: paint and varnish remover
note: fire hazard is low (by itself)

MINERAL SPIRITS see petroleum spirits

NAPTHA (see below for types)
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: see petroleum distillates
otc: hardware and paint stores
uses: paint thinner, some lighter fluids, some spot removers
note: boiling fractions are similar to gasoline

NAPTHA (coal tar, naptha solvent)
prop: bp 149-216 C, dens 0.86-0.89
tox: see petroleum distillates
caution: flamable

NAPTHA, V.M. & P. (benzine, 76 degree naptha)
prop: bp 100-140 C, dens 0.67-0.80, flash point 20 F.
tox: see petroleum distillates
note: do not confuse with benzene
caution: flamable, autoignite 450 F

NAPTHA, V.M. & P., 50 degree flash
prop: bp 115-143 C, flash point 50 F
tox: see petroleum distillates
caution: flamable

NAPTHA, V.M. & P., high flash
prop: bp 138-165 C, flash point 50 F
tox: see petroleum distillates
caution: flamable

NONANE (C9H20, n-nonane)
a component of gasoline, a component of some napthas
prop: mp aprox -54 C, bp aprox 151 C
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: see petroleum distillates
otc: see naptha, white gas, gasoline
caution: flamable

OCTANE (C8H1
a major component of gasoline
prop: bp aprox 126 C
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: see petroleum distillates
otc: hardware and paint stores (some napthas)
otc: sporting goods stores (white gas)
caution: highly flamable

PAINT THINNER see petroleum spirits, turpentine

PAINT and VARNISH REMOVER
usually composed of methylene chloride and methyl alcohol. may also
contain toluene and other solvents. see individual components for
more information

PENTANE (C5H12, n-pentane)
a component of some light petroleum ethers
prop: bp aprox 36 C
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: see petroleum distillates
otc: see petroleum spirits
caution: highly flamable

PETROLEUM DISTILLATES (gasoline, naptha, petroleum ether, mineral 
spirits, petroleum spirits, fuel oils, xylene, etc.)
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: generally low to moderate toxicity, laboratory experiments 
show a slight carcinogenic potential for most petroleum 
distillates. higher boiling fractions may be more 
carcinogenic.
caution: flamable to highly flamable
note: petroleum distillates do not dissolve most water-solubles
note: petroleum distillates include everything from pentane to
heavy tars

PETROLEUM ETHER see petroleum spirits, naptha, starter fluid
note: generally (but not always) refers to the lower boiling 
fractions of petroleum distillates

PETROLEUM SPIRITS (petroleum benzine, petroleum naptha, light 
ligroin, petroleum ether, mineral spirits)
prop: bp 35-180 C, dens .64-.66
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: see petroleum distillates
otc: hardware and paint stores
uses: paint thinner
caution: flamable
note: "petroleum spirits" often refers to the lower boiling 
fractions of petroleum distillates. However, one "odorless 
paint thinner" claiming 100% mineral spirits had a boiling 
point of 175 C.
note: do not confuse with benzene

STARTER FLUID
composed of hexane, diethyl ether, and heptane. see individual 
components for more information.
otc: automotive stores
uses: starting stubborn automobiles on cold days
caution: very flamable
note: some starter fluids may contain heavier lubricants

alpha-TRICHLOROETHANE (CH3CCl3, 1,1,1-trichloroethane, methyl 
chloroform)
prop: bp 74.1 C, dens 1.3492
dis: oils, etc.?
pol: non-polar?/moderately polar? (insoluble in water)
tox: oral LD50 (dog) 750 mg/kg, avoid fumes
otc: super markets, hardware stores, etc.
uses: spot remover (brand name: "Energine"), industrial uses
include cleaning of metal parts and metal molds
caution: can react violently with acetone
note: non-flamable!

TETRAHYDROFURAN (OCH2CH2CH2CH2, diethylene oxide, cyclotetramethylene 
oxide-1,4-epoxy butane)
(included for comparison and cautions)
dis: oils, etc.; mis: water, alcohols, ethers, hydrocarbons
pol: moderately polar
otc: none known
note: peroxides may be removed by treating with strong ferrous 
sulfate solution made slightly acidic with sodium bisulfate
caution: same as diethyl ether (slightly more dangerous)

TOLUENE (C6H5CH3, methylbenzene, phenylmethane, toluol)
prop: mp -95 C to -94.5 C, bp 110.4 C
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: oral LD50 (rat) 5000 mg/kg, oral toxicity is moderate, 
inhalation of 100 ppm can cause psychotropic effects, 200 ppm 
can produce CNS effects
otc: paint and hardware stores (mixed with methyl alcohol, etc.)
uses: furniture refinisher, liquid sandpaper, paint remover
note: low fire hazard (by itself)

TURPENTINE (spirit of turpentine, turpentine gum, turpentine oil)
prop: bp 154-170 C
dis: oils ?, etc.?
pol: non-polar? (insoluble in water)
sol: alcohols, chloroform, ether, glacial acetic acid
tox: aspiration causes pheumonitis, oral ingestion causes damage 
to GI tract and kidneys, inhalation toxicity is high
otc: paint and hardware stores
uses: thinning varnish, paint, & enamel; cleaning brushes
caution: moderately flamable

WATER (H2O)
prop: mp 0 C (32 F), bp 100 C (212 F), dens .99999 @ 4 C
dis: anything that is water soluble
pol: polar
tox: non-toxic unless contaminated with a toxic substance
otc: your kitchen sink (contains chlorine, etc.)
otc: grocery store (distilled water or purified water)
uses: drinking, washing, etc.
note: distilled water is better for most things (and it's cheap).
water is ofter used with petroleum ether to separate water-
solubles from non-water-solubles. i.e. combine and shake
vigorously until your arm falls off, then separate.

WHITE GAS (petrol, gasoline)
prop: see gasoline
dis:, pol:, and tox: see petroleum distillates
otc: sporting goods stores
uses: fuel for camp stoves and camp heaters
caution: flamable

XYLENE (C6H4(CH3)2)
prop: (m-xylene) mp -47.9 C, bp 139 C
(o-xylene) bp 144.4 C
(p-xylene) bp 138.3 C
dis: oils
pol: non-polar
tox: oral LD50 (rat) 5000 mg/kg, see also petroleum distillates
otc: super markets, hardware stores
uses: some cleaners (e.g. for dissolving chewing gum, 
brand name: "Goof-off"), some lighter fluids
caution: flamable


OTHER SUBSTANCES: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

ACETIC ACID (CH3COOH, vinegar acid, methane carboxylic acid, ethanoic 
acid)
prop: mp 16.7 C, bp 118.1 C
sol: water
tox: oral LD50 (rat) 3310 mg/kg
otc: grocery stores (vinegar)
uses: cooking, cleaning
caution: dangerous in contact with: chromic acid, sodium peroxide, 
nitric acid, potassium hydroxide, sodium hydroxide, xylene, 
oleum. decomposition (at high temp.) evolves toxic fumes
note: normal vinegar is 5% acetic acid, vinegar concentrate is 18% 
acetic acid
note: can be used for extracting some alkaloids from plant material

AMMONIA see AMMONIUM HYDROXIDE

AMMONIUM HYDROXIDE (NH4OH, ammonia, aqua ammonium, water of ammonia,
ammonium hydrate)
prop: mp -77 C
sol: water
tox: oral LD50 (rat) 350 mg/kg, oral LDlo (human) 43 mg/kg,
inhale LClo (human) 5000 ppm
otc: grocery & hardware stores
uses: household cleaning ammonia
note: ammonia is a gas at room temperature. it is sold otc 
dissolved in water (much as is done with hydrochloric acid).
note: a weak base. can be used to precipitate some alkaloids
from slightly acidic solutions.

CANNABIDIOL (CBD)
found in marijuana, organicly converted to THC, can be isomerized 
into THC by refluxing with dilute acid
prop: mp 66-67 C, bp 187-190 C @ 2mm Hg
sol: acetone, petroleum distillates, alcohols, etc.
note: this is an oily substance, not water soluble

CANNABINOL (CBN)
found in marijuana, a degradation product of THC
prop: mp 76-77 C, bp 185 C @ .05mm Hg
sol: acetone, petroleum distillates, alcohols, aqueous alkaline
note: this is an oily substance, not water soluble

EPHEDRINE HYDROCHLORIDE (C6H5CHOHCH(CH3)NHCH3 HCL, a[1-(methylamino)
ethyl]benzyl alcohol hydrochloride)
prop: mp 187-188 C
sol: water (1gm/4ml), (insoluble in diethyl ether)
tox: oral LD50 (mouse) 400 mg/kg
otc: truck stops (Mini Thins, MaxAlert, etc.)
uses: bronchiodialator (for asthma)
caution: decomposes into toxic fumes at higher temperatures
note: pure ephedrine is no longer available otc in the U.S. current 
otc varieties usually have guiafenesin
note: slightly stronger that ephedrine sulfate
note: pure ephedrine can be converted into methcathinone
note: now a controlled substance in the US

EPHEDRINE SULFATE ((C6H5CHOHCH(CH3)NHCH3)2 H2SO4, 1-phenyl-2-
(methylamino)propanol sulfite)
prop: mp 247 C
sol: water (1gm/20ml), alcohol (1gm/0.2ml)
tox: oral LD50 (rat) 600 mg/kg
otc: same as for ephedrine hydrochloride?
caution: decomposes into toxic fumes at higher temperatures
note: slightly weaker than ephedrine HCl
note: pure ephedrine can be converted into methcathinone
note: now a controlled substance in the US

HYDROCHLORIC ACID (HCl, muriatic acid, chlorohydric acid, hydrogen 
chloride)
prop: mp -114.3 C, bp -84.8 C, dens 1.639 g/liter gas @ 0 C
tox: oral LD50 (rabbit) 900 mg/kg
otc: hardware stores (muriatic acid)
uses: cleaning calcium or lime deposits from cement, brick, 
swimming pools, and ceramic tile.
caution: caustic
note: useful in isomerizing CBD to THC. useful in extracting 
some alkaloids from plant material. HCl is found naturally in
low concentrations in the digestive juices of your stomach.

LYE see SODIUM HYDROXIDE

PARAQUAT
an herbicide used by Latin-American drug enforcers to kill marijuana 
crops in bulk
tox: oral LD50 (rat) 57 mg/kg, dermal LD50 (rat) 80 mg/kg, can 
cause severe damage to lungs (nasty stuff!)
note: avoid all marijuana that looks like it has any dye on it. 
unfortunately, not all paraquat is used with dye.

TETRAHYDROCANNABINOL (THC)
found in marijuana, the psychoactive stuff
prop: bp 200 C @ 0.02mm Hg (other cannabinoids may have bp's 
lower than 185 C)
sol: polar solvents, acetone, alcohols, etc.
note: this is an oily substance, not water soluble

SODIUM HYDROXIDE (NaOH, caustic soda, sodium hydrate, lye, white caustic)
prop: mp 318.4 C, bp 1390 C, dens 2.120
tox: oral LDlo (rabbit) 500 mg/kg
otc: hardware stores, etc. (Red Devil Lye, etc.)
uses: unclogging drains
caution: highly corrosive to body tissue
caution: can react violently with acetic acid or tetrahydrofuran
note: useful in precipitating some alkaloids from acid solutions

SODIUM SULFATE (Na2SO4)
by product of isomerization of CBD to THC when sulfuric acid is 
neutralized with baking soda
sol: water
note: insoluble in alcohol
note: can be removed by dissolving resin in petroleum ether
and shaking with water

SULFURIC ACID (H2SO4, oil of vitriol, dipping acid)
prop: mp 10.49 C, bp 330 C, dens 1.83
tox: oral LD50 (rat) 2,140 mg/kg
otc: plumming supply stores (plummers' sulfuric acid)
uses: unclogging drains
otc: automotive supply stores (battery acid)
caution: battery acid may have lead in it
caution: caustic, use care when mixing with water as it heats 
rapidly when dissolved and causes spattering (add slowly to 
water drop by drop)
note: useful in isomerizing CBD to THC

VINEGAR see acetic acid


SUBSTITUTIONS: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

It is not always easy to come up with the exact solvent discussed in 
any particular recipe. Consequently, it may be advantageous to 
consider substituting an over-the-counter solvent for a hard-to-get 
one. This can often be done successfully if you keep a few things in 
mind. The main thing to look for is what the solvent dissolves. 
If you are trying to dissolve an oily substance (such as cannabinoids 
from pot or oil from lemon peels), look for solvents that will 
dissolve oils (e.g. polar solvents, etc.). Be aware that some 
solvents may dissolve more than you bargained for. Alcohols and 
acetone will dissolve things that petroleum distillates won't, like 
sugars and chlorophyll. Another thing to look for is boiling point. 
Naptha solvent (coal tar naptha) has a boiling point so high that you 
wouldn't be able to boil it off to separate it from THC (the THC 
would boil off with it). Solvents with lower boiling points are 
much easier to boil off, and usually leave less residual solvent. 
Petroleum distillates are usually a mixture of various hydrocarbons 
with a variety of boiling points. The boiling fraction of any 
particular petroleum distillate refers to the range of boiling points 
of its components. 


PURITY: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

There are basically two ways that impurities can get into solvents, 
etc. The first way is inherent in the manufacturing process. Very 
few products are pure at the time of manufacture. The general idea 
is to produce a product that meets certain minimum purity 
requirements. The product is refined to remove contaminants until 
the minimum purity level is reached. Most manufacturing methods 
favor low cost production over purity of product. Industrial grade 
products are used in applications that require only marginal purity. 
With reagent grade chemicals, however, a high degree of purity is 
required. Reagent grades are refined until they are ridiculously 
pure (e.g. something like 99.999% pure). This additional refining is 
costly, and as a result, reagent grades are usually many times the 
price of industrial grades. Industrial grades are used in a lot of 
commercial products, and are often available at hardware stores, etc. 
Reagent grades are generally only available at chemical supply 
stores. Unfortunately, most kitchen chemists would have a difficult 
time bluffing their way in a chem shop without arousing suspicion. 
Additionally, many reagent grade products are watched closely by 
certain government agencies, where the industrial grades are not. 
(e.g. acetone)

The other way impurities can be introduced is when the manufacturer 
intentionally places additives into a product to enhance its 
performance (or appearance) or to dilute an expensive component. 
Since the performance enhancing additives usually cost more, the 
expensive, big brand names are the ones most likely to use them. 
When performance enhancing additives are present, the product labels 
often boast a lot of features. The less expensive, more generic 
looking products are less likely to add performance enhancers but are 
more likely to dilute their product. Some additives may actually be 
useful, however. e.g. Paint and varnish removers often combine 
methylene chloride with methyl alcohol, and furniture refinishers 
often have toluene combined with methyl alcohol.

When dealing with industrial grades, always read the label carefully 
to determine if it contains things you don't want. Unfortunately, 
not all products list every component on their labels. Try calling 
the emergency accidental poisoning numbers listed on the labels. 
Tell them your dog ingested some of their product, and that the vet 
asked you to call the number. Try to get as much information from 
them as you can about what the product contains. Work up a likely 
story (including symptoms) before you place the call. One crude 
method of testing for contaminants in solvents would be to place a 
few drops on some clean glass, and let it evaporate. The amount of 
residue remaining gives a very rough idea of how much other crud is 
in the solvent. Feed a generous amount of this residue to the 
neighbor's cat, and if it dies, the product may be too toxic. 

Actually, the likelyhood that contaminants in an industrial grade 
product are highly toxic or carcinogenic is probably much lower than 
most people think. Relatively few substances are highly toxic and/or 
significantly carcinogenic. Many things in our everyday environment 
are carcinogenic if you are exposed to massive quantities, but potent 
carcinogens are not all that common. Due to government regulations, 
many (if not most) industrial grade products are not allowed to 
contain significant amounts of dangerous substances, anyway. (Who 
wants a cleaner or solvent that will leave a highly hazardous 
residue?) Even with all of these assurances, there is always a 
certain amount of risk associated with the use of industrial grade 
products.

In order to reduce the risks associated with contaminants, the 
following precautions are in order:

1) use reagent grades when possible
2) if reagent grades cannot be obtained, then make every effort 
to acquire the purest product available (read labels, study 
manufacturing methods, etc.)
3) purify the product (if you can) before using it
4) use minimal amounts of these products (a liter of solvent 
boiled down to a few cc's may still contain a liter's worth
of contaminants)


Some people recommend purifying petroleum distillates by adding 
water, shaking vigorously for a long time, and then discarding the 
water. This will only help remove water soluble contaminants. A 
better way to purify most liquids is to distill them. Unfortunately, 
this is not always easy to do if you don't have the right equipment.

One thing I have been intending to try is to shake paint stripper 
(containing methyl alcohol and methylene chloride) with a generous 
quantity of water to see if I can separate the methylene chloride. 
If anyone has comments on whether this will work, please let me know. 


USEFUL HINTS: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

Boiling off solvents with low boiling points (less than 100 C):

Place the solvent into a small pan or shallow, wide mouth jar. 
Shallow containers with wide openings aid in allowing the vapors to 
escape quickly. Place the container with the solvent into a larger 
pan of simmering water. Don't allow the water to come to a full 
boil. Boiling water is really no hotter than simmering water. 
Rapidly boiling water can splash into your solvent, or cause the 
solvent container to tip over. Watch the level of the solvent as it 
boils away so that the container won't get too light, and tip over. 
If the level of the solvent is too low (i.e. 1 cm below the level of 
the water), then remove some of the water. Anchoring the solvent 
container in place may help. Use hot pads to avoid burning yourself. 
Remember to use good ventilation to avoid the build-up of toxic or 
flamable fumes. If the boiling point of your solvent is too close to 
100 C, you can add sugar or automobile antifreeze to the simmering 
water to raise it's boiling point a little, or use the method below 
for higher boiling point solvents.

Boiling off solvents with higher boiling points (greater than 100 C):

Follow the method and precautions for lower boiling point solvents 
with the following differences: Use melted shortening (or vegetable 
oil if you don't have shortening) instead of simmering water. If 
your solvent container is glass, place it in the shortening as soon 
as it is melted, and then heat it up from there. This will help keep 
the jar from cracking. Elevate the solvent container slightly from 
the bottom of the larger pan to aid in even heating. A few nails in 
the bottom of the shortening works for me. Place a candy thermometer 
in the shortening to measure it's temperature. Heat the shortening 
until it is 20 or 30 degrees centigrade hotter than the highest 
boiling point of your solvent or until the solvent begins to boil at 
a comfortable rate. Always keep the temperature of the shortening 
well below the boiling point of the dissolved product you are trying 
to recover, or you may loose significant amounts of it to 
evaporation. Be careful to not let solvent or water splash into the 
hot shortening or you may get some spattering of hot grease. If your 
solvent container is glass, allow it to cool slowly when you are done 
to keep it from cracking. If you are extracting cannabinoids or 
other oils of similar or higher boiling points, you may want to raise 
the temperature of the shortening to about 160 C for a minute or two 
to help eliminate solvent residue. (It can be tough to get rid of 
all of it, though.)

Preventing boil-overs:

Some solvents may have a tendency to boil over quite easily. This 
can waste valuable product as well as pose fire hazards, etc. By 
making sure that the solvent level is well below the top of its 
container, many boil-overs may be avoided. It is common practice in 
chemistry to use boiling chips to control excessive boiling. Glass 
marbles can serve the same purpose, and they are easy to get. Put as 
many marbles into your solvent as needed to control the boiling. 
Marbles may be removed a few at a time as the solvent level drops. 
Remember that valuable extract may coat the surface of the marbles. 
Wash them with a very small quantity of solvent and add this to the 
rest of the solvent when it is mostly boiled off.

Refluxing in the kitchen:

Find a pan with a lid that can be put on upside down, and still 
remain stable with a reasonable fit. Place your solvent, etc. into 
the pan, and put the lid on upside down. Place ice in the lid. Heat 
the solvent until it begins to boil gently. The heat may be applied 
directly, or for better temperature control, you may use a method 
similar to the ones listed above for boiling off solvents. If you 
use hot shortening to apply heat, be careful to not let water from 
melting ice or solvent condensing on the sides drip into the hot 
grease. Tying a rag around the top of the solvent pan can help. As 
the ice melts, scoop out the water and add more ice.

Getting rid of water in oil extracts:

Sometimes water can get into an oil extract when it is purified by 
dissolving in petroleum ether, and shaking with water. As the last 
of the solvent boils off, the water forms beads in the bottom of the 
extract. These beads of water begin to spatter when the extract gets 
too hot. By adding a small amount of acetone or alcohol, the water 
will tend to evaporate off as the alcohol or acetone is boiled off. 
Make sure that the alcohol or acetone is not contaminated with large 
amounts of water or this may be counterproductive. This process may 
be repeated until all of the water is gone.


REFERENCES: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

- Dangerous Properties of Industrial Materials, Litton Educational 
Publishing, Inc. (got a lot of good information here)

- CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics

- The Merck Index

- Some dictionary of technical and scientific terms

- Labels from numerous OTC products

- Comments from people on the 'net (many thanks to contributors)

- The chemistry-extracting file at hyperreal.com

- Things I remembered, but don't know where I read them"

.


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## slabhead (Jan 4, 2010)

A+ information Hobbes. This is being pasted in my notebook. Thank you for the research.


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## Hobbes (Jan 4, 2010)

.

I ran a couple of Naphtha (petroleum ether) extractions last night and evaporated off the Naphtha tonight. It was a tricky process, the boiling point being so much higher than butane. I tried soaking in a Rubbermaid tub for an hour, I was getting evaporation but too slow. I set up a double boiler with a huge lobster pot (~14" dia) and Pyrex brownie trays - the Naphtha boiled off in minutes and I let the trays boil for an extra 10 minutes to make sure the oil was clean. Very clean smelling, just honey oil and not a scent of petroleum or anything else.

Positives: quick, efficient, easy to do, relatively inexpensive.

Negatives: explosion hazzard, toxic smell, worry of petroleum left in oil.

I did runs on two batches butane extracted leaf (one Naphtha run) and one run of Volcano dregs. Very impressive oil results, shows what's left behind. The whole process spooked the crap out of me, and I've been running butane extractions since Phife was holding court on the OG. Very toxic smell, has to be evaporated out doors. The extraction itself if just pouring Naphtha in a jar with your trim, shaking, straining through a coffee filter - it can be done in a well ventilated room.

I haven't tried the oil yet, I'm going to let it sit over night and boil some over a candle tomorrow. More of a red tinge than the yellow from a butane extraction but not as red as I've gotten from ISO. The jury is still out on this process, easier and safer than butane but petroleum spooks me. I'm going to look into car starter fluid or lighter fluid next time, instead of Naphtha.

The 2nd run of the butane extracted leaf on the left and the Volcano dregs (2 Volcano runs) on the right.







.


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## The Grinch (Jan 5, 2010)

hey hobbes

did you test the alcohol level after doing the reflux?

I use 95% alcohol and was wondering what the level would be after doing this...


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## Hobbes (Jan 5, 2010)

.

Hey Grinch!

I looked through the net (briefly) and didn't find a method of testing alcohol % other than an hydrometer/alcometer and I didn't have enough distilled alcohol to float one (I got 250-350 ml from a 750 ml bottle). I still have the distilled alcohol if anyone knows a simple method for a small sample.

I found a page on reflux distilling that said a person can get up to 80% on the first distill (depending on equipment and skill), 86% on the second, etc. So I'm no where near the 95% you can buy off the shelf, I can't buy above 76% here, and it's vile tasting rum. Still (pun intended) it was a fun exercise and if I want to keep an alcohol tincture I know how to get high proof vodka.

I've been putting my time into researching sub and super critical fluid extraction with CO2, seems like a fairly simple process now I just have to MacGiver my coffee thermos; a Cyclone Candle; my scuba tanks and gauges; and the flexible steel woven water hoses for my washer into a high pressure/temperature extraction device. Pics to follow.

.


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 7, 2010)

Hobbes after I am done warming the alcohol do I put it in the dropper with the plant matter in it? Or do I need to strain this tiny amount of alcohol through a coffee filter? 

It seems that with 3.5 grams of weed material in it it would be very very thick?

Sorry I ask instead of trial and error I am low on weed.


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 7, 2010)

never mind I made it with lemon extract. Just dosed. here we go.

1/8 lemon diesel. about .5 grams of premature blue dreamz. 2 oz. flovorganics organic lemon extract.
ground it baked it at 325 for 4 minutes 30 seconds. put it in my weed jar and placed in water bath with lemon extract.
almost filled my dropper.
already getting high its been 5 minutes...

oh btw fuck it burns under the tongue!


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 7, 2010)

it works pretty good


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 9, 2010)

Hobbes what would you suggest i do to make my tincture more potent?
cook longer?
more weed?
evaporate the alcohol out?

have you experimented and found a way?


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## Hobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

.

Matanuska I'm at work (swamped) but I'll post a few ways to increase potency tonight. There are some scattered though the thread but it'll take forever to find them.

What's your tincture like now? Color, taste, sediment. What was the alcohol used?

.


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## slabhead (Mar 9, 2010)

evap it out


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 9, 2010)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> Matanuska I'm at work (swamped) but I'll post a few ways to increase potency tonight. There are some scattered though the thread but it'll take forever to find them.
> 
> ...


I used organic lemon extract. tastes good but burns like fuck of course! 86% alcohol I believe.
it is green and has some stuff in the bottom. I filtered though a coffee filter so it isn't bad. 
I figured this was the thc so i shake it before use.

The first time I used it I did not shake it and I got bombed... since then not so much. 
Does the THC settle?


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## Hobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

slabhead said:


> evap it out


Bingo.

Add water first then boil off the alcohol. Add water to keep the chlorophyll and terpins off the cannaboid sediment. 

If you use a pyrex mason jar it will make the process easier, you can shake it later to dissolve the dried resin.

Heat the tincture with the top off between 79C and 100C. Do not boil.

The chlorophyll, terpins and leaf/bud parts will float in the water as the alcohol evaporates. 

The resin will settle on the bottom as sediment - heavier than water like ice water hash.

Gently pour or siphon the green water out, any left will carry the green dragon taste to your new tincture.

Pour a small amount of solvent (alcohol, extracts, glycerin) - only enough so the sediment will dissolve and stay in solution. 

The less solvent you use the more potent your tincture will be. It should now taste like the solvent, not green dragon.

.

If you hadn't cured your bud/trim before making your tincture you could heat the sediment in a pyrex mason jar at 106C for 5 minutes after the resin is completely dry. This will decarboxylize any THCA left in the sediment, giving you more THC and more potency.

.

If you want to distill Vodka for tasteless 85% alcohol:

https://www.rollitup.org/cooking-cannabis/285016-diy-crock-pot-alcohol-reflux.html


.


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## Hobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

.

*Honey Oil Tincture*

.

*The Carrot*

The most potent tincture possible is a honey oil tincture (with the bud you have and without doing isomorphs). Simply keep adding honey oil until it will no longer stay in solution.

After baking my leaf I can go from trim to tincture in less than an hour.

Honey Oil tincture will taste like the solvent.

.

*The Stick*

You might get blowed up.

If you don't follow the extraction procedure properly you could turn your house into a bomb and burn yourself horribly. People have been arrested after blowing the doors off their garages; gone to the hospital with flash burns.

If you are not committed to safety first and planning your extraction before doing it then skip the rest of this tincture.

.

*Making The Tincture*

Once you do your extraction (below) you will have a tray that looks like this:







Heat the pan slightly in the oven (50C or so, until the resin is soft) and simply pour your solvent into the pan. Use a fork to rub the honey oil into the solvent, depending on the solvent the resin can dissolve in minutes - glycerin can stand a higher temperature than alcohol so you can heat the tray hotter and pre heat the glycerin as well.

I've made grape seed oil tincture like this that worked out fairly well, when I've got some extra trim I'm going to make another batch and distill some vodka and use the two in a spray bottle to make a sub lingual tincture spray. I also use BHOE for olive oil for incredible brownies.

.


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 9, 2010)

Hobbes said:


> Bingo.
> 
> Add water first then boil off the alcohol. Add water to keep the chlorophyll and terpins off the cannaboid sediment.
> 
> ...


I baked it first as per your instructions. thank you for the new idea!


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## Hobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

*BHOE comparrison: Honey Bee vs 1/2" Copper Pipe - Pictures* 
permali
 

***edit: I'll add a post later on packing the tube, one of the most important parts of the process)

The Honey Bee is beautifully made and a pleasure to use but it's relative wide diameter to it's length makes it an inefficient butane honey oil extractor. I did a test of equal weight samples (~28 grams) and got an additional ~35% honey oil using a longer but smaller diameter extractor pipe.

At 1 3/8" Inside Diameter and 5" inside length the Honey Bee has an area of 1.5" square and a voume of 7.42" cube. A 1/2" diameter pipe has an area of 0.2". The Honey Bee cross section has 7.5 X the area of the 1/2" pipe, so each piece of plant mater in the 1/2" pipe would be touched by 7.5 X the butane as the leaf in the Honey Bee. Butane acts as a non polar solvent - it does not absorb the cannaboids as does oil - therefore it will continue to dissolve resin as it passes through more and more leaf.

For a 1/2" diameter pipe to have a 7.42" cube volume, as the Honey Bee, the pipe would have to be 38" long. However, the column of leaf in the 1/2" diameter pipe is denser than in the 5" x 1 3/8" Honey Bee because the weight of the tall column compacts the leaf below. Settling during the loading process makes the same weight of baked leaf settle at ~30" in the 1/2" pipe. For this test the Honey Bee took 28.2 grams of baked fan leaf, the 1/2" x 30" took 27.9 grams.

.

My Equipment and 56 grams of baked fan leaf. I used 1 can of butane per pipe per extraction.







.

A wax seal for the 1/2" x 30" copper pipe cap - eliminates spray.







.

Everything packed and ready to go. The copper tube wax seal is secured by masking tape, a white butane adapter jammed hard in the end. A double coffee filter is secured to the pipe with a hose clamp on the other end. I put them both out in -15C in a plastic bag for two hours to cool the leaf before extracting.







.

1/2" Extractor. The oil always looks green at first. The butane just pours and drips out of the bottom.







.

The Honey Bee. It sprays the butane out under a small amount of pressure.







.

I boil the butane off in a tub of hot water. Everything, extraction and boiling off, is done out doors in the open. No electricity, no flames, no wool.







.







.

I leave the Pyrex trays in the hot water for 10 or 15 minutes after the butane is boiled off to expand any gas trapped in the oil. I bake it in the oven at 106C for 5 or 10 minutes after wards to be sure no gas is left.







.

After baking, the Honey Bee 







and the 1/2" x 30" copper pipe.







.

0.7 grams for the Honey Bee







.

1.0 grams for the 1/2" x 30" pipe







.

My scale goes to tenths of a gram only, so I'm going to call it 2.5 grams instead of 3. 2.5/7 = 35% more extract using a narrower tube.

The fan leaf had few trichomes, little oil to get with even the best extraction. I think the difference would be higher using high quality leaf or bud.

Conclusion: I love the Honey Bee, beautifully made and simple, but I'd never use it because it's inefficient. As well, though it sports a "Made In Canada" label that does not mean that it was entirely made according to Canadian standards.

*"Made in Canada is defined as having the last major transformation done in Canada. Any product that has more than 2 per cent foreign content will have the Made in Canada label but, it will have to also have the stipulation of either: "...from domestic and imported ingredients" or "...from imported ingredients." *

.


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## Hobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

*.

A Cautionary Tale*

.

I copied this post from another thread where there were some safety issues I wanted to address and had to do some research to get some of the information I wanted. I put some work into it so I want to keep it in a thread of my own so I don't loose track of it. I learned all of this information from Phife and his crew on Overgrow ten or fifteen years ago, I just remember the important stuff (don't use pvc, don't get blow'd up) so I had to refresh my memory. They had chemist in the thread and went into much greater detail than my limited knowledge allows.

.

.

Sorry for intruding on your thread gwerns. 

I'm not sure if the pictures and instructions are yours or if you copied them, I assumed you were looking for a discussion on BHOE. Normally I'd just leave with my apology, but ....

There are two critical errors in the extraction process shown that will cause death and/or a long visit to the intensive care unit before going to prison; and a third error that will just attack your organs over time. I think this is information that everyone reading the thread should know, including yourself. 

1. Death and/or ICU 

*Never, ever, for any reason, extract indoors*. Butane is heavier than air and will sink, even with an open window and a fan you WILL get butane pools. Electrical outlets, appliances, the fridge might turn on, the heating system. Outdoors only, no garage, no barn, no doghouse. Remember the guys who blew the doors off their garage a couple months back? 

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...206/story.html







.

2. Death. If you stop at the ICU for a bit you'll probably just wish for death.

a:* Never, ever, for any reason, boil off butane indoors. *
b: *Never, ever, for any reason, boil off butane with a heat source (the burner) that can reach butanes flash point (788F) or has has a flame*. 

Most burners won't reach 788 but I've seen red hot sparks when moving pans around the burner which would ignite butane gas. Not worth it. Even if you're using a double boiler, the butane as a gas is going to sink in air because it's heavier. Below the double boiler is the burner or flame. Use a tub of hot water - outdoors.

"Keep on a low heat and turn on your fan now to keep the area well ventillated!" - very dangerous advice. 







Is that is a flame stove?

.

3. Organ damage.

Butane leaches chemicals out of PVC over time. PVC was not designed for BHOE. PVC contains a host of dangerous chemicals as well as lead, cadmium and other heavy metals - which will stay in your body and build up over time. 

Heavy Metal Toxicity:http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C15891.html

.

"[FONT=Arial,verdana]*Does PVC pipe contain hazardous chemicals?*[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,verdana]The concerns about hazardous chemicals in PVC centre on the use of heavy metal stabilisers (typically Cadmium and Lead) and plasticisers in flexible PVC products (such as phthalates). There are many reports that question the level of concern with respect to these chemicals in PVC."[/FONT] 

"[FONT=Arial,verdana]*Should I be concerned about VCM?*[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,verdana]Consumers are not at risk from exposure to VCM. VCM is only present in the polymer raw material stage.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,verdana]VCM is known to cause a rare form of liver cancer after prolonged high level exposure. The only known deaths as a consequence of contact with VCM have occurred to people involved in the manufacture of PVC. [/FONT]"

.

You are using a non polar super critical solvent on these pipes. They will leach those chemicals and heavy metals into your honey oil, a little at a time, so you'd never notice until you've reached toxic build up.

.







.

gwerns you made beautiful oil but eventually you're going to get blow'd up real good if you don't change your process from what's shown in the pictures. 

Best of luck, BHOE kicks making cannabutter's ass, so many uses for the resin. I've made corn syrup candies that are unreal, highly recommend it. When I want brownies from my Volcano dregs I do a BHOE and have amazing tasty brownies. A great process.

.


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## Hobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

.

I was lucky enough to have found The OG forum before it closed and followed Phife's thread on Honey Oil for over a year. Absolutely the best thread I've ever had the pleasure of reading, this is the best extraction instructional I've ever read.

Thanks again Phife.

.

*How to Make Butane Honey Oil*

Contributed by: *Phife* 
Submitted: November 27th, 2004 
Images archived: 2005 

*Disclaimer* 
​  Butane Honey Oil (BHO) extraction is an extremely dangerous activity. Butane is flammable, explosive and can potentially contain poisonous and harmful chemicals. Undertaking BHO extraction may result in serious bodily injury, or Death. The information provided on this website is strictly for educational purposes and in no way do the owners and staff of Overgrow.com encourage its production or use. 

*Safety* 

Butane is Highly Flammable and ALL extractions are to be done Outdoors Only, doing extractions indoor is extremely dangerous. There have been accounts of people blowing up their houses, kitchens, and bathrooms doing Butane and other solvent extractions indoors! 

Butane gas is heavier than air and will pool in low areas, if left to collect butane gas becomes flammable when it reaches 1.8% to 8.5% concentration in air. A small breeze will keep the butane from being able to pool and become dangerous. 

It is recommended you take every precaution possible. Wearing Safety Equipment such as Eye protection, as well as gloves and always keep a fire extinguisher near by. 

Nothing is more important than your safety! 
Do all butane extractions Outdoors or in Very well ventilated areas. 

Never Smoke, have an open flame or source of ignition around when doing any kind of extraction, even outdoors 

Avoid static build up and even a small spark in the right conditions can be dangerous. 

*Butane & Health* 

It has been talked about a lot lately, some brand of butane add a smell to their butane. This smell is usually added to the butane so that humans can detect leaks, you will find it in large amounts in cheap butane, or camping butane. It can also potentially be in ?Clean? butane such as Colibri. 

These chemicals are usually Mercaptans or Sulfur Dioxide (Rotten Egg Smell), using cheap butane with high levels of these is harmful. Do not use cheap butane or camping butane. It can also be harmful to use ?Clean? butane, so do so at your own risk. 

It is not known what the effects of residues in butane honey oil are; it?s not even known for sure what if any residues are left over in butane honey oil after the butane is purged. 

Only a Gas Chromatography/Mass Spectrometer can give us the info on what?s exactly is in our BHO. The search is on to find somewhere to get a sample tested. Until then, be aware of the potential health risks and judge for yourself if it?s worth it. 

*Butane Brands* 

Not all butane is created equally; there are 2 different types of butane that make up the most common brands of butane. Isobutane and N-Butane. 

Most cheap brands use Isobutane (2-METHYL PROPANE) and is more toxic and hazardous than N-Butane. For making Honey oil N-Butane is what we want, it extracts better and leaves very little to no residues in the oil. 

Other brands use a mix of the different types, and some, like Colibri, use propane as well as Iso and n-butane 

Boiling Points 
ISOBUTANE: -11.7 C 
N-BUTANE: -0.5 C 

No source of pure N-Butane has been found available in stores, only through Gas Supply Companies. 

 The best brand of butane I have used is Colibri Butane. I highly recommend Colibri, and you should be able to find it at most Fine Cigar and Tobacco Shoppe?s. Below is a list of other brands that are good for making Honey oil with. If you cannot find Colibri try to find one of the butane brands listed. And by all means avoid Ronson, Bernz-o-matic or other butane not listed below, they add smell to their butane and this smell is left behind making the oil taste very bad. 

Other Brands that are good to use: 

COLIBRI, NEWPORT, CORA, CTC, COLTON, DUNHILL, DAVIDOFF, FACKELMAN, WIN, NIBO, SAROME, CALOR GAS MATCH, UNILIGHT, K2, SUPERGAS, VENTTI, VECTOR. 

This is by no way a complete list, and there is no promise this info will always be correct, manufactures can change recipes at anytime. This list is the brands that carry the ?Near Zero? impurity label, which means they are not supposed to have more than 15ppm of impurities, what they are is not know. 

When you purchase the butane make sure you find the largest size of can you can. I use the 300ml/167g (6oz) cans of Colibri. Most places only carry the little 2oz cans, these are not enough. You will need at least 8oz of butane for every 1oz of plant material. 

If you find a brand that?s not listed you can do the mirror test to check to see if it?s ok to use. See Below. 

*Mirror Test *

 Take a mirror or piece of glass and spray some liquid butane into it. A good amount. (You may need some pliers to press the nozzle in) Wait about 5-10mins for the butane to evaporate and check the mirror for a white residue like the kind pictured. The residue also smells bad. Don?t confuse water condensation for residue. Also even Colibri leaves a very slight residue, but it doesn?t smell. Check for Smell. 





 (First mirror picture is of a clean mirror, second of the butane evaporating and last one is the white residue from Bernz-o-matic brand butane) 







*Plant Material* 

 This is the most important factor if you wish to achieve high quality honey oil, Good fresh dried uncrushed bud makes the best honey oil, and you should easily achieve clear oil using uncrushed buds. Grind them up and do a second extraction to get a lower grade ?B? wash, not as tasty or clear like the first batch. 

Butane extracts the smell from the plant material, so if you have some great smelling buds the oil will also take on that smell. If you use bad smelling or tasting plant material, you will get bad tasting oil. 

Using crappy plant material can also result in low yield and oil dark in color. 

Plant Material-|-Recommended amount Butane-|-Estimated Yield 
1oz High quality bud-|-12oz-|-3-6g 
1oz Average bud-|-10oz-|-2-4g 
1oz low grade bud-|-9oz-|-2-3g 
1oz high quality trim leaves-|-12oz-|-3-5g 
1oz trim & leaves-|-10oz-|-2-4g 
1oz fan leaves-|-8oz-|-1-2g 

*Extraction Tube* 

 The extraction tube should be no wider than 1.5?, I find ¾? to be the best. The tube should be made of Stainless steel or Thick glass Only, You can use a copper tube if you cannot find stainless or glass, but only if you clean the tube well before each extraction. Copper tarnishes and the tarnish can potentially be extracted by the butane. 

Avoid ALL Plastics, brass, steel and galvanized steel pipe, these all can contaminate your oil and make you sick. 

I found a cheap stainless steel turkey baster works very well with little modification. It holds about 1/2oz of bud and can yield 2.5-3g of oil from ½ oz of good bud and 4-5oz of butane. 

Some people like to build a contained extraction tube with valves to hold the butane in and let it sit in the plant material for a long time to maximize extraction but this is unnecessary. An open ended tube where the butane can flow through and drip into a collection dish is the easiest to build and makes much better oil. Allowing the butane to sit in the plant material will make your oil greener. 

 I use a ¾? by 9? Stainless Turkey Baster tube with a screw cap top and a small hole for the butane nozzle. Use a drill to make a 7/64? hole. Leave the bottom Open Ended, a paper basket style coffee filter, and stainless steel screen or metal window screen will be attached here when the tube is filled with the plant material. Use a Hose Clamp to attach your filters. 








 For the collection dish I use a Pyrex casserole or pie dish. Avoid metal collection dish as they can spark, you can use them but I don?t recommend it. 

Honey oil is very sticky and it?s a lot easier to scrape it up from a flat bottom dish with square sides or one with out corners but I have yet to find the perfect dish, Make sure your collection dish can hold at least 500ml of liquid. 



*Extraction* 

Make sure your plant material (Leaves, Trim, Stems, or Buds) are very dry, the dryer the better. If you want clear honey oil with a lower yield, pack the tube without grinding or breaking up the plant material. The butane will extract the high quality oil on the outside of the plant material then unpack the tube, Grind up the plant material into a powder, you don?t want any chunks in it, it should a coarse powder, and re-extract a lower grade oil. 

The better the starting material the better the oil. If you use males or just fan leaves don?t expect awesome oil. You can also use butane extraction to salvage moldy buds. 

Fill the extraction tube full with the powdered plant material; avoid making air pockets in the tube. I like to fill the tube a little then pack it down and repeat until the tube is full. 

Don?t pack it to much and try to make sure the tube is full, if you don?t have enough plant material to fill your tube then try to get a smaller tube. Air pockets let the liquid butane expand to gas and lower the efficiency a little. 

After your tube is filled then you can place your screen on the bottom, Coffee filter works well. The picture shows a steel mesh screen with a coffee filter, which would work the best. 

Find some way to mount the tube on a stand or get an oven mitt as the tube gets very cold, and you won?t be able to hold it with your bare hand for very long. 

Once the tube is filled and prepared its time to get your collection dish, tube, butane and stand or glove and venture outdoors. 

_This is the most dangerous part of the whole process:_ 

 Find a safe, secluded place where you can do the extraction. Hold or mount the tube over the collection dish and place the nozzle of the butane can in the hole you made in the end cap. Release the entire can of butane into the tube, it will take anywhere from 30 secs. To 1 min for the liquid to start to drip from the bottom of the tube into the collection dish. If no liquid comes out of the tube and you have used an entire can then get another can, Packing the plant material to tight can cause a build up of pressure and stop the butane from flowing, if this happens do not let the pressure build to high and take your time.. Eventually the butane will make its way out the bottom. If the butane starts to come out the top hole then slow the release of butane into the tube. 

Continue to empty the can until its just releasing gas (you will hear the difference), remove the spent can. If you are extracting more than 1oz get another can. I usually run 1 6oz can as my tube will hold about 1/2oz of plant material. 

After the last can is emptied I let the tube drip for another few mins, the liquid in the dish should have a golden color to it. It may be hard to see. 

*Evaporation* 

 I like to bring a thermos filled with boiled water to my extraction location along with a frying pan so I can do the evaporations outdoors. It should only take about 15-20mins to evaporate it all. 

Or you can do your evaporations indoors as long as you take every precaution and are aware of the risk of fire if a spark or flame reaches the evaporating butane. And be sure not to let it pool in low areas. 

I have a small fan close by blowing at the dish to avoid butane pools but the electric motor can cause sparks so be sure to keep it blowing at the butane instead of sucking the butane out. 

 Place the collection dish into a larger dish or frying pan filled with hot tap water or water that was boiled and watch the butane start to bubble. The hot water will get cold quickly so change it often until the butane/oil mix starts to thicken up. 

Once the oil gets thicker I let it cool in the freezer in the collection dish. I recommend you do another heating with hot water to make sure all the butane is evaporated. 

Be careful not to overheat or evaporate for too long. The longer you apply heat the darker your oil will get. Once the oil no longer bubbles from boiled water then its usually ready, no more heat is needed. 

The oil might still bubble when a lighter is applied but this is not butane gas bubbles. It?s just the nature of the honey oil. 

If you find your honey oil gets hazy or cloudy it is usually cause by trapped butane, do another purge to get the last of the butane out. 

Once your done evaporating the butane, the honey oil can be smoked. If you let the honey oil sit in the collection dish, keep it covered in a dark place for a week - the honey oil will harden and you can chip it off, it will be solid but melt when heated. 

*Handling, Storing and Smoking:* 

 You can use a razor blade to scrape up the oil from the dish. I like to put my oil into 5g Glass vials for storage; you should be able to find the vials at your local head shop. It?s pretty tricky to fill the vials with oil and it will take a bit of practice to get it right. 

You can leave the oil in the collection dish and scrape it as you smoke it as well, make sure you cover the dish with plastic wrap so no dust and other things get stuck in your oil. 

 Depending on your collection dish shape, it might be difficult to remove all the oil from the corners. I found a little tool that works very well for getting all the oil from the dish. It?s used for mixing paints and it looks like a little flexible knife that can bend to get in all the corners. It?s called a Palette knife and you should be able to find that at an art supply store. 






  









*Smoking* 

 I like to vaporize my oil on hot knives, Take a butter knife and stick it between the electric elements in your stove and crack up the heat, or use a butane or propane torch to heat the knife up. When it?s nice and hot remove the knife and use a pin to drip a drop of oil on the hot knife and suck up the smoke with some sort of tube. I use a pen tube or custom glass hooter. 

Ash bowls are another common way to smoke oil. Take a pipe or bong and fill the bowl with ashes from a cigarette and then drip a drop of oil on top of the pile of ashes. Then light the bowl with a lighter and smoke like you normally would. 

Well that?s it Folks. How to make kick ass honey oil! Good Luck to all and Be Safe.

.


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## Hobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

MatanuskaValley said:


> I baked it first as per your instructions. thank you for the new idea!


Matanuska I put the wrong temperature in the original post - 206C - that will vaporize the bud. It should be 106C.

Sorry if I ruined your resin.

.


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 9, 2010)

Hobbes said:


> Matanuska I put the wrong temperature in the original post - 206C - that will vaporize the bud. It should be 106C.
> 
> Sorry if I ruined your resin.
> 
> .


so that is to bake it at? yeah I did like 350 which is almost 206


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 9, 2010)

MatanuskaValley said:


> so that is to bake it at? yeah I did like 350 which is almost 206


when I did the conversion I knew it must be wrong because to 380 is what vaporizers run at i thought


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## Hobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

.

Sorry.

Typo and I didn't catch it until after I posted all the BHOE threads. Some genius figured out the exact temp to decarboxylize the quickest and most effectively, or just posted that they did. I use 106C and it's worked fine.

Let me know if the tincture has any potency left.

.


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 10, 2010)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> ...


so when I can get some more weed I will try again. So at this temperature is it still 4-5 minutes? or does it have to bake longer?


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## Hobbes (Mar 10, 2010)

.

I fill my toaster oven with leaf and bake it for an hour at 106C, to dry the leaf out as well. To be honest the toaster oven has a 60 minute dial timer and I just crank it as far as it will go and forget about the leaf. No science involved in my timing, just keep the temp down as not to vaporize or damage the existing THC. I make Black Out Bud Butter from Dr Jay's recipie in a crock pot and that's close to 100C for an hour then probably 90C - 95C for 2, I figure an hour at 106C shouldn't hurt things too bad.

If the leaf is dry I'll usually bake for 15-30 min. I bake on a screen - it dries the leaf quicker. Also, use an oven thermometer, don't trust the dial.

I've read that in less than 5 minutes baking at 106C will decarboxylize dry bud/leaf.

Again, I'm so sorry. Even more so now that you posted that you have to buy/get bud, I was hoping you were a grower. 

.


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 10, 2010)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> I fill my toaster oven with leaf and bake it for an hour at 106C, to dry the leaf out as well. To be honest the toaster oven has a 60 minute dial timer and I just crank it as far as it will go and forget about the leaf. No science involved in my timing, just keep the temp down as not to vaporize or damage the existing THC. I make Black Out Bud Butter from Dr Jay's recipie in a crock pot and that's close to 100C for an hour then probably 90C - 95C for 2, I figure an hour at 106C shouldn't hurt things too bad.
> 
> ...


I am, I am on my first grow no harvests yet. Some guy here sold me an ounce of weed that I found out when I got home had been vaped. This set me back on money and weed substantially, I am a med patient but in Oregon I have to rely on illegal dealers because if you talk about buying weed around Oregon NORML they kick you out permanently.

It is terrible catch 22 I am caught in. My first plant is going to yield like a half O too that will last me a week or two.
Lesigh I am done crying like a little bitch now, fuck I hate Oregon medical laws. If we only had a dispensary...


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## snizzim (Mar 10, 2010)

I have been wanting to try this method..its really simple...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4HLLgVN_xk

im sure the recipe could be changed a tad if you didnt want to use 1g of bud


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## Hobbes (Mar 10, 2010)

.

Thanks snizzim that was ... relaxed. The guy had some good ideas.

As far as running the herb through the vaporizer, I don't think that short a time will decarboxylize much. It seemed like the guy's bud was pretty dry, probably cured well, he may have just been getting the rest of the water out before making tincture. A poor man's toaster oven at best. 

I'd advise skipping the dregs tincture - I've been making brownies from Volcano dregs by boiling with butter; crock pot; and butane honey oil extraction. Even extracting the resin with butane I would not like the tincture, brownies are great but ... As for an alcohol extraction - alcohol is a near polar solvent which basically means that as well as dissolving the resin its going to dissolve everything that tastes horrible. Like drinking ashes.

If anyone tries it PLEASE come back and tell us how it tastes. After you recover.
.


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## hummbling (Mar 18, 2010)

So I made a batch of this using everclear. I was very precise and my temps stayed around 165 degrees. When I was finished I ended up with 1/2 of oz. of tincture. Can I add a 1/2 of more everclear to bring that up to 1f ounce of tincture? I thought Id ask first incase the fresh Everclear might alter it in a bad way. Any additional information would be greatly appreciated.


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 18, 2010)

hummbling said:


> So I made a batch of this using everclear. I was very precise and my temps stayed around 165 degrees. When I was finished I ended up with 1/2 of oz. of tincture. Can I add a 1/2 of more everclear to bring that up to 1f ounce of tincture? I thought Id ask first incase the fresh Everclear might alter it in a bad way. Any additional information would be greatly appreciated.


I kept mine at 150 ish and ended up with over an ounce... big variance, how potent was your shizzle?


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## hummbling (Mar 18, 2010)

I haven't tried it yet. I did go ahead and added an additional 1/2 oz of fresh everclear.


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 18, 2010)

hummbling said:


> I haven't tried it yet. I did go ahead and added an additional 1/2 oz of fresh everclear.


man i would rather have more potent stuff that you can use less of its pretty gross. and oh fuck it burns especially if you need a full dropper!


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## Hobbes (Mar 18, 2010)

.

Hey Hummbling!

*"I made a batch of this using everclear. I was very precise and my temps stayed around 165 degrees. When I was finished I ended up with 1/2 of oz. of tincture. Can I add a 1/2 of more everclear to bring that up to 1f ounce of tincture? I thought Id ask first incase the fresh Everclear might alter it in a bad way."*

Matanuska is correct.

The only negative effect will be to decrease the potency of a volume - 1 ml of old tincture will have the same potency as 2 ml of the new tincture. Taste will improve as the chlorophyll and terpins extracted by the alcohol are divided over twice the liquid. Alcohol is a near polar solvent which means, for one thing, that it will dissolve both resin and water soluble chlorophyll and terpins that make the tincture green and taste like ass water.

A better alternative, and one you can still do if you want, is to add water to your tincture and heat until all of the alcohol is boiled off. The dissolved resin will come out of solution and sink to the bottom of your jar. Siphon off the green dragon water that contains the chlorophyll and terpins in solution; add a smaller amount of pure clean Everclear to the resin sediment and you have Alcohol Resin Tincture - potent and tasty. 

You could also use vegetable glycerin or grape seed oil instead of Everclear for a different type of tincture.

.

*Steps to increase tincture potency and improve taste:*

Add water first then boil off the alcohol. Add water to keep the chlorophyll and terpins off the cannaboid sediment. 

If you use a pyrex mason jar it will make the process easier, you can shake it later to dissolve the dried resin.

Heat the tincture with the top off between 79C and 100C. Do not boil the water.

The chlorophyll, terpins and leaf/bud parts will float in the water as the alcohol evaporates. 

The resin will settle on the bottom as sediment - heavier than water like ice water hash.

Gently pour or siphon the green water out, any left will carry the green dragon taste to your new tincture.

Pour a small amount of solvent (alcohol, extracts, glycerin) - only enough so the sediment will dissolve and stay in solution. 

The less solvent you use the more potent your tincture will be. It should now taste like the solvent, not green dragon.

.

If you hadn't cured your bud/trim before making your tincture you could heat the sediment in a pyrex mason jar at 106C for 5 minutes after the resin is completely dry. This will decarboxylize any THCA left in the sediment, giving you more THC and more potency.

.

You could use your Everclear in an Alcohol Reflux Extractor to conserve the Everclear, speed extraction and increase extraction efficiency. 

https://www.rollitup.org/cooking-cannabis/285016-diy-crock-pot-alcohol-reflux.html

.


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## hummbling (Mar 18, 2010)

Thanks for that helpful info. I already added the other 1/2 ounce so I'll just try it out by starting with 1 serving (1ml) and see how it works and next time I'll try 2ml. Also, I forgot to mention that I used some really nice Bubba Kush BUDS and no stems and leaves.


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## hummbling (Mar 19, 2010)

Ok so I just took my first serving on an empty stomach. Its 7:50am where i live. Ill keep you posted.


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## Hobbes (Mar 19, 2010)

.

Good stuff!! Can't wait to hear how it works, I'll check in through the day.



.


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## That 5hit (Mar 19, 2010)

A typical slow cooker operates at 80°C (176°F) on low, 90°C (194°F) on high
a crock pot or slow cooker 
and *alcohol* has a boiling point of 78 degrees Celsius


(step replacing)
instead of putting all the shit in a jar and then putting it in the boiling water making it like a double boiler
couldn't i just put everthing in a crock pot that way there's no open flame
just prolly take longer 

the below Rx was given to me by Big P


green dragon
_big p's _"Reefer Liquor"

_10g of pot dry_
_grind up to near dust_
_spread out on baking sheet_
_put in oven for 1hr at 220_
_bring water in a small pot to a boil_
_place in it a jar filled with the baked pot_
_pour in a pint of everclear or highest proof alcohol you have But leave like 1 or 2 shots out_
_bring this to a boil stiring occasionally for 30 min_
_let cool _
_take mixture out_
_strain out solids (weed) from mixture into a second jar_
_take the 1 or 2 shots you set aside earlyer and pour over the solids in the first jar _
_this is to get the stuff that might be left in the solids(weed)_
_then add this to the second jar _
_the bottle should now be half full or a little more than half full with the dragon cuz the rest evaporated away during cooking. fill the rest of the pint with water to make it about a 50/50 mix so it wont burn your throat_
_drink one shot, you just ingested about 1 gram of erb. I would pace myself cuz the shit will get you tossed depending on tolerances_
_then enjoy_


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## hummbling (Mar 19, 2010)

Hey Hobbes,

Here is an update. Its been 1 hour and I really don't feel much. I don't have a big tolerance to smoking 2 hits and Im usually good for a couple hours. I'll wait another 1/2 hour and take another full serving (1ml) incase there is a build up in my system, if that doesn't do it I'll wait another 1 1/2 hours and take a full 2 ml dose. I'll keep you updated...


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 19, 2010)

hummbling said:


> Hey Hobbes,
> 
> Here is an update. Its been 1 hour and I really don't feel much. I don't have a big tolerance to smoking 2 hits and Im usually good for a couple hours. I'll wait another 1/2 hour and take another full serving (1ml) incase there is a build up in my system, if that doesn't do it I'll wait another 1 1/2 hours and take a full 2 ml dose. I'll keep you updated...


welcome to the reality of tincture you will find everything on this forum is oversold...


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## Hobbes (Mar 19, 2010)

.

*"welcome to the reality of tincture you will find everything on this forum is oversold... "*

is true.

You can make tincture that will knock out most people who consider themselves stoners though, potency only depends on how potent your bud/trim is once you have the extraction process down cold.

Making potent tincture really is no harder, and takes no more time, than making potent brownies.

.


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 19, 2010)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> *"welcome to the reality of tincture you will find everything on this forum is oversold... "*
> 
> ...


I used 6 grams of premium fire, some of these best weed I have had in a long long time. 
Perhaps it is every post says the temperatures in different C or F. It is just not user friendly.

This would be a hard thing to master from this confusing thread.

I would say "no offense" but after I read this, I can see it is offensive. Sorry.

IMO waste of weed unless you unlimited amounts.


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## Hobbes (Mar 19, 2010)

.

*"This would be a hard thing to master from this confusing thread."*

Very confusing thread with no order other than it's a repository for info on making tincture. Maybe I should take all of the recipies, procedures and tips and put them in a short thread. I made this thread for myself to help learn to make tincture and spent dozens of hours researching and ounces of bud experimenting, I think it would be fair to consolidate everything for forum members new to tincture. 

*"I would say "no offense" but after I read this, I can see it is offensive. Sorry."*

Constructive criticism, you presented a problem and a concise thread may be a good solution.

+rep

.

*"IMO waste of weed unless you unlimited amounts"*

There is a learning curve and if a person is buying their bud it's going to be an expensive education.

.

*"Perhaps it is every post says the temperatures in different C or F. It is just not user friendly"*

That's a good observation I haven't thought about. I've collected recipes and articles from over a dozen people, added my own observations as did other forum members.

What would you suggest - consolidate all temps and times using my experience? A first post in the thread explaining why there are different theories, post what I would use? I certainly don't consider myself in the same game with most of the authors when it comes to tincture, cannabis, chemistry. It would be quite vain to post Dr Jay's or Subcool's recipes then say that they're wrong and I'm right.

.


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 19, 2010)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> *"This would be a hard thing to master from this confusing thread."*
> 
> ...


Hard to say, I just want one recipe for tincture that works. I don't want a bunch of peoples variances and ideas. 
Hopefully not in the metric system!

Also I think I may have went wrong by not spreading my pile of ground up weed thin enough prior to baking. A few pictures of the process variables would be nice just so we can eliminate the variables that are messing up some tinctures. OR perhaps 150 and 165 degrees is a huge difference. I think 150 does not work you have to boil it at 165. Am I wrong about this?


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## Hobbes (Mar 19, 2010)

.

*"I just want one recipe for tincture that works. I don't want a bunch of peoples variances and ideas."*

*Honey Oil Tincture*: My recipe. Idiot proof and guaranteed potent - if the bud is potent and extraction done properly which is not hard. The potency of the bud is up to you.

There's a bunch of stuff in this thread but it's scattered. I'll make a new thread with a pictorial using a variety of solvents (alcohol, glycerin, grape seed oil) and strains, then post reviews by the med patients I supply.

I'll design some plug 'n play Butane Honey Oil Extractors for small weights, My first gizmo did about 4 grams. Starting out the Honey Bee is fine for growers, a 1/2" copper plumbing pipe much better.

Matanuska if that's sounds like what you need I'll do the thread.

Starts on post #106 of this page.

https://www.rollitup.org/cooking-cannabis/125137-alcohol-tincture-11.html

.


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 19, 2010)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> *"I just want one recipe for tincture that works. I don't want a bunch of peoples variances and ideas."*
> 
> ...


I live in an apartment unfortunately, I just need to perfect this method. 

Does it matter how the keif is arranged on the foil for baking?

So if I baked at 325 F for 4-5 minutes that is not what you do perhaps that is the problem?


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 19, 2010)

> I found good recepies for three methods: Hot Extraction, the quickest extraction of cannaboids (20 minutes); suprisingly the Cold Extraction next (2-3 days); and the Warm Extraction longest (30-60 days).
> 
> --
> 
> ...



this says to bake at 325 for 4-5 minutes. Is there a way that makes it turn out better?


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## That 5hit (Mar 19, 2010)

here is a method big p does



That 5hit said:


> A typical slow cooker operates at 80°C (176°F) on low, 90°C (194°F) on high
> a crock pot or slow cooker
> and *alcohol* has a boiling point of 78 degrees Celsius
> 
> ...


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## That 5hit (Mar 19, 2010)

MatanuskaValley i dont think you are letting the weed sit in the alchohol long enuff this is a step most under do
there is no over soaking
originally tincture were made over months of time 
the heated method speeds this up 
another step that is over looked is squeezing the material out


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## Hobbes (Mar 19, 2010)

.

Baking the bud decarboxylizes the THCA and turns it into psycoactive THC.

I find 325F too close to vaporization, I use 106C for a while longer - 5 to 10 minutes after the bud is completely dry.

.

*"Is there a way that makes it turn out better?"*

Than baking or that recipe for potency? 

Baking is about the best way to quick cure fresh bud and trim, just take a little longer and keep the temperature lower. 

*"I live in an apartment unfortunately"*

You can still make Honey Oil Tincture by using an alcohol extraction rather than Butane. Building an alcohol reflux extractor is simple and you can do it in your kitchen or your living room. Possibly with cook ware you have around the house.

https://www.rollitup.org/cooking-cannabis/285016-diy-crock-pot-alcohol-reflux.html

My problem with most of these recipes are that they take so long to extract the resin that you don't know what your tincture is going to be like, except it's going to taste awful regardless of the potency. With Honey Oil Tincture I can go from trim to tincture in an hour (if my trim is prebaked). And I know I can make the most potent tincture possible with my bud, because I can saturate the solvent.

.


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## KitchenKhemist (Mar 20, 2010)

subscribed


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 20, 2010)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> Baking the bud decarboxylizes the THCA and turns it into psycoactive THC.
> 
> ...


I took my left over minty weed and shook it in a jar with 99% isopropyl alcohol for 30 seconds then strained and vaped off the alcohol. Then I added the mint alcohol to absorb the oil. 

The shit works now!


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## Hobbes (Mar 20, 2010)

.

Excellent!

Iso is much more efficient and quicker at extraction than ethanol, you've got your Iso Oil and easy tincture.

I've never been crazy about the taste and smell of Iso Oil but the stuff works wonders. I use to love making red crystals and sprinkling them in pipe bowls and joints. Did you Iso oil dry red? How did you evaporate the Iso - any heat source?

Congratulations!!

.


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 20, 2010)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> Excellent!
> 
> ...


No it was green... when you mix it with mint extract it only tastes like mint! Mint extract is 89% alcohol but still mint mint mint that is all I taste and smell even my poop smells like mint!

From now on for me ISO and mint extract so easy!

I set the bowl with the ISO on my ballast which is in front of a window fan it evaped it like an hour or so. The ballast does not really get warm due to the constant wind on it.


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## hummbling (Mar 20, 2010)

hummbling said:


> Thanks for that helpful info. I already added the other 1/2 ounce so I'll just try it out by starting with 1 serving (1ml) and see how it works and next time I'll try 2ml. Also, I forgot to mention that I used some really nice Bubba Kush BUDS and no stems and leaves.


 
Ok so here is my update. Yesterday I took 1ml on an empty stomach and nothing happened. I waited a few hours and nothing happened. So me and a few friends took 2 1/2mls each (still on an empty stomach) and waited another couple of a hours. Nothing really happened so we just smoked. I ended up just throwing it away. No biggie I have plenty of bud to try again. So that's what Im going to do. Not sure where I went wrong, but I'm dedicated to starting over and getting this right.


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## Hobbes (Mar 20, 2010)

.

I've become a believer in doing an extraction first, then adding the desired amount of solvent to get the number of dosages wanted. Iso is safe and simple; BHOE is simple and high quality but dangerous; alcohol reflux is simple and cheap; ice water kief then a tiny bit of polar solvent to turn the kief into oil. 

The trick to getting a potent tincture is to extract the resin, have an idea of how many dosages you can get from that resin; add solvent for that many dosages. I know that from 28 grams of Volcano dregs I can get 1 tray of 9 potent bownies. From the same oil I could add 1 teaspoon of glycerin per dose I want, so I could go 6 teaspoons or 10 depending on how much potency I want based on my knowledge from brownies.

If my trim is dry I decarboylyize the THCA after doing the Butane Honey Oil Extraction, after boiling off the butane in a tub of hot water I put the pyrex tray of honey oil in the oven for 10 or 15 minutes - as long as your oven temperature is above 106C (223F) and below 149C (300F) you'll be fine. I heat the glycerin as well, in a pyrex measuring cup, and just pour the glycerin in the tray and rub the honey oil into solution with a fork. Just takes a couple of minutes.

.

There are expert tincture makers out there who could use a green dragon extraction and get a more potent tincture than I could using honey oil, I'm not claim Honey Oil Tincture to be the best method, just the most idiot proof. And tasty.

.


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 21, 2010)

> If my trim is dry I decarboylyize the THCA after doing the Butane Honey Oil Extraction, after boiling off the butane in a tub of hot water I put the pyrex tray of honey oil in the oven for 10 or 15 minutes - as long as your oven temperature is above 106C (223F) and below 149C (300F) you'll be fine. I heat the glycerin as well, in a pyrex measuring cup, and just pour the glycerin in the tray and rub the honey oil into solution with a fork. Just takes a couple of minutes.


in an earlier post you said to decarbolize the weed at 215 degrees for 1-3 hours didn't you? Is it different temperature for oil than weed? 

Loving your last post I agree this is the way to go I fall in to that idiot proof recipe catagory


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 21, 2010)

Oh yeah once you get the stuff potent, you can actually experience visuals off of it, so be careful!


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## Hobbes (Mar 21, 2010)

.

*"in an earlier post you said to decarbolize the weed at 215 degrees for 1-3 hours didn't you?"

*Yes.

The exact science of decaboxylliztion is more of an art. I've never read a study done with a mass spectrometer to determine the optimum time or temperature. I've found it's less about following an exact time and temperature for all types of bud, trim or extracted oil/kief - than starting somewhere in the middle (where your resin won't be vaporized but it's still hot enough to decarboxylize) and adjusting from experience.

106C for 15 minutes for dry trim does a great job for me, as does stuffing my toaster oven full of fresh cut leaves and baking for an hour at 106C. I cook my brownies at 300F, with an oven thermometer to guarantee temperature. As soon as my butane is boiled off outside in a tube of water I put the pyrex tray in the oven, turn the oven on and take the tray of Honey Oil out when the oven hits 300F - 5 or 10 minutes of rising temp. The higher the temperature the less time you want to bake to avoid damaging the existing THC. Its always better to under heat than over heat.

The 1 - 3 hours in the crock pot is for extraction mostly, the decarboxylization is a serendipitous side effect.

.
*
Is it different temperature for oil than weed? "*

No, the resin is still the same chemical composition unless your extraction process changed it some way (heat, time, etc)

.


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 29, 2010)

Hobbes I have a hermie plant I want to make 99% alcohol hash with to eat. Do I have to wait for the plant to dry before I wash it?


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## mcgyversmoke (Apr 12, 2010)

Well the name def suits it,
I just made a batch using 151 and 2g's of keif and about a gram of bud shake. mostly pistils.
I was hoping it would be nice and amber colored but no it turned out green and it is the most god awful tasting thing.... but it gets you high as balls.
I mix one 1/4 of a tsp into most anything i want to drink.
and poof like an hour after i drink it i feel great like im floating. very potent. using this batch to make pot lollipops with for 4/20. 
Happy cooking and toking 
and thanks to Hobbes for the recipe.


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## Hobbes (Apr 12, 2010)

MatanuskaValley said:


> Hobbes I have a hermie plant I want to make 99% alcohol hash with to eat. Do I have to wait for the plant to dry before I wash it?


Mantanuska you should dry and cure the bud in an oven at ~106C before your extraction - to cure the THCA and to make the extraction easier.

The only extraction I remember with undried is to freeze the trim for hash or iso extraction - to keep the chlorophyll and terpins trapped as I remember. From my experience with ethanol (drinking alcohol) it will not dissolve the resin quick enough, you could be waiting a month. Iso will do the extraction in under a minute.

I've always found extractions easier and quicker after drying but freezing the trim and doing an Iso extraction is a way to avoid extracting chlorophyll and terpins while using near polar solvents (ie alcohol).

.


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## Hobbes (Apr 12, 2010)

.

*"I mix one 1/4 of a tsp into most anything i want to drink."*

Good stuff McGyver!

.


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## mcgyversmoke (Apr 12, 2010)

Thanks Hobbe's
any idea y its so green? i strained it through cheescloth 3 times.


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## Hobbes (Apr 12, 2010)

.

It's the Chlorophyll, filtering won't take it out.

If you want to refine your Green Dragon you have to take the resin out of solution while leaving the chlorophyll and terpins in solution. Do this by adding water (to keep the Chlorophyll and terpins in solution) and evaporate off the alcohol between 79C and 99C. The resin is heavier than water and will settle to the bottom. Add lots of water and put in the fridge to help the resin settle quicker. Siphon off the green ass water and add fresh alcohol (glycerine, grape seed oil, etc) and you'll have better tasting tincture. And if you add less alcohol than you had before you will get a more potent tincture.

.


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## mcgyversmoke (Apr 12, 2010)

Ah good to know any idea what that would be in farenheit?
and how do i evaporate it?


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## Hobbes (Apr 12, 2010)

*"any idea what that would be in farenheit?"*

http://www.albireo.ch/temperatureconverter/

.

*"and how do i evaporate it?"*

Evaporate in a double boiler with a thermometer in your tincture to be sure that you don't heat too hot.













.


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## Big P (Apr 15, 2010)

hi hobbes great thread


I use the boiling everclear and weed method to make my tinc


but i usually use 8 - 9 grams of pure primo bud for every 12 ozs of everclear,

then once the tinc it done and strain it and about 40% water so it wont burn so much going down


anyway i alwasy shake it real good before i a pour a shot because i see sediment settle to the bottom in the bottle somtimes when its left in the freezer


does this mean 8 grams bud is too much to use with 12 oz everclear?

am i wasting weed? 

or is it all good since im shaking it before pouring my shots and its all ending up in the same place anyway?


i ofcoarse decarb the weed also before i make the tinc


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## sickstoner (Apr 16, 2010)

does it have to be 151 proof could it be 100 proff? smirnoff just came out with a 100 proff and i loves me some smirnoff


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## Big P (Apr 16, 2010)

sickstoner said:


> does it have to be 151 proof could it be 100 proff? smirnoff just came out with a 100 proff and i loves me some smirnoff


 
ive only tried evercler which is 190 proof


i heard this would make the most potent drink 

then next best thing would be 151

then next best thing i guess would be 100 proof


however to me its like medicine not really into it for the taste

green dragon tastes like garbage

but i have grown to enjoy the horrible taste

its like a right of passage.


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## madcaps123 (Apr 17, 2010)

oz is a measurement of volume, i think its 30 ml


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## grexwtf (Jul 4, 2010)

alright i made the hot extraction and it turned out to be less than 1oz in the end. it still smells like everclear but its really brownish/green with a hint of the smell of marijuana. i let it sit out for about 2 hours and put a drop in my eye. it stung like a mother fucker and my eye was mad red. i waited all night and felt nothing. i used an eighth of quality nug so i dont see what went wrong


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## Big P (Jul 4, 2010)

I use a whole little bottle of everclear for like eight grams bud of dank

Try putting five drops under your tongue and let it absorb under there


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## Big P (Jul 4, 2010)

Or you may have messed the extraction up? 


If you want a fail safe method, put grinded up weed in a little bowl mix with olive oil put in oven at 295 deg f for 45 min let it cool then drink the mix


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## grexwtf (Jul 5, 2010)

i was thinking about doing it under the tongue since it has the same receptors as in your eyes and nose. thanks for the advice ill let you know if it works


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## GrowMoe (Jul 9, 2010)

Hey

I've read some pages in this thread, but I gave up finding an answer, so I thought I could just ask.
Yeasterday I made a tincture of 60% alcohol and stems and trim. Now I didn't pre-heat the stem/trim/bud, so I'm wondering what the best way to proceed with this tincture to make it as potent as possible. I was originally planning on just letting it sit in a dark place for a month or something, but now I understand that there are some options, like heating in a waterbath.

any suggestions on how to make the best of it? I just don't get all of this shit about heating alcohol and evaporating and stuff.


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## nl3004.kind (Jul 17, 2010)

hummbling said:


> Ok so here is my update. Yesterday I took 1ml on an empty stomach and nothing happened. I waited a few hours and nothing happened. So me and a few friends took 2 1/2mls each (still on an empty stomach) and waited another couple of a hours. Nothing really happened so we just smoked. I ended up just throwing it away. No biggie I have plenty of bud to try again. So that's what Im going to do. Not sure where I went wrong, but I'm dedicated to starting over and getting this right.


quick question, hummmbling, did you drink it down, or wait for it to absorb underneath your tongue (up to two minutes)? i think many people just drink it straight and forget to let it absorb sublingually.... just curious...


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## nl3004.kind (Jul 17, 2010)

GrowMoe said:


> Hey
> 
> I've read some pages in this thread, but I gave up finding an answer, so I thought I could just ask.
> Yeasterday I made a tincture of 60% alcohol and stems and trim. Now I didn't pre-heat the stem/trim/bud, so I'm wondering what the best way to proceed with this tincture to make it as potent as possible. I was originally planning on just letting it sit in a dark place for a month or something, but now I understand that there are some options, like heating in a waterbath.
> ...


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## Hobbes (Jul 30, 2010)

.

I agree with NL. Better quality alcohol tincture is made over time, unless a person is able to invest the time and marijuana to develop the skill of someone like Dr Jay. For a person just making their own tincture and isn't captivated by the process there's no need to build a mad scientist lab when a mason jar will do.

.

For the mad scientists among us ....

I was designed a CO2 subcritical fluid extractor to replace butane extraction and the process was a hell of a lot of fun. Here's a link to the thread if you want to check it out - all the info for the extractor is in blue, I wove threads of information - technical, letters, comedy, philosophy, music, video - to make it like a fun park to visit while a person absorbs the extractor info. The info is all in point form - in blue - if all you want to do is breeze through that it's easy to pick out. 

Have a look, spin your mouse wheel, it doesn't matter where you start. Bookmark the thread, open an account, post a hello and drop back in again and again if you enjoy the place. If you want to build your own CO2 extractor and help the medical marijuana community - lower prices to patients and increase the potency and quality of their extracts - I'll work through the process with anyone who wants to understand it - but only on Jon Stewart's forum. I wrestled with that beast for two weeks, it would add and subtract lines and blocks of text at will and randomly. I just needed a quiet place and there is NO place quieter than Jon Stewart's forum. Ba ding bam!

The thread was formatted for a MacBook Pro 17" screen, there's a short introduction on the first page.

http://forums.thedailyshow.com/?page..._id=28916&pg=1

To understand, construct and operate the extractor this is all you need - if you put enough time into thinking the process through.







.

Drop in, register and say hi! I need you guys to help me get this spread throughout the marijuana community.

http://forums.thedailyshow.com/?page=ThreadView&thread_id=28916&pg=1

.



.


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## nl3004.kind (Jul 31, 2010)

gods love you hobbes... that is a nice piece of equipment... one question: is using the pvc necessary? i've heard many things that lead me to believe that pvc is dangerous to use and that it can leach toxic chemicals ect into your smoke... but it looks trick, and i'd bet that compressed co2 would be much better than butane extraction, plus no "trace" chemicals are placed into it, right??? no off smells/ tastes... what a great idea, man!


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## Hobbes (Jul 31, 2010)

.

*"one question: is using the pvc necessary"*

LOL!! Good point!

The model is a conceptual - its a teaching model only, not a working model. That's made from stainless steel - all of the written: parts list, assembly instructions, operating directions and parts list are in BLUE text on Jon's forum.

Everything else you advanced is correct, and more. There are very few trace chemicals left after a butane extraction, the concern is more for impurities in the butane than actual butane itself. But ... emptying two cans of butane into a single tray of brownies makes me queasy. Butane leaches various heavy metals from PVC, there is a past about that on my "gifts" thread on Jon's forum.

NL if you could would you open an account on Jon's forum and copy and past the question there - I want to start a discussion ... with other people for awhile! 

Sometimes the journey is more important than the destination - I'm sure I could have made money selling these by now but if I start giving away fishes we're not going to go where we have to go. In pleasure boating there are two basic schools of thought - sailing and stink pots. In a power boat the destination is important - if going to an island a few clicks off shore you can power out in minutes and everyone can go about doing what they want to do. Sailing out requires time, skill and effort - people can get a ride out to the island and enjoy the scenery or they can chip in and help sail the boats: learning new skills that they can pass on, developing working friendships with their crew mates. 

We are rudderless with only one engine working on a side, spinning us in circles.


http://forums.thedailyshow.com/?page=ThreadView&thread_id=28916&pg=1

.


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## Hobbes (Jul 31, 2010)

.

I'll add some incentive to go to my thread on Jon's forum, for people who like this thread but find the information too jumbled. If you go to Jon's thread and read the BLUE text about the CO2 extractor; look at any of the jokes and one philisophical; open an account and make a few posts about anything you want (hopefully some extractor questions) I will:

- organize the information in this thread by tincture and extraction type, rate each for potency, time, taste, etc.
- organize every question into an FAQ, organized alphabetically by topic.
- post tutorial videos made by you guys, in a section of the thread for videos.
- all of the info together at the start of the thread.
- any unique questions answered, by anyone, will be added to the FAQ.
- post a disambiguator at the start of the thread.


http://forums.thedailyshow.com/?page=ThreadView&thread_id=28916&pg=1

.


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## Big P (Jul 31, 2010)

Hobbes my boy your a genuis!


That thread is patently insane


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## Hobbes (Jul 31, 2010)

.

Hey Big P!

Every part of that thread seems one in the same to me, I would pull whole sections from one page and post it on another or fuss for an hour to get my spacing between lines just right for one frame. 

Unbelievably fun. I've listened to authors talking about their stories becoming more real to them than the physical reality and I now understand it differently than I did as a reader. The concept of non corporeal beings on Deep Space Nine always seemed contrived, but when you can travel to any part of the story at any time, making whatever change you want - eventually you start to forget that other people don't know the story like you do. I found myself placing a joke in the third post then placing the setup to the joke in the seventh post. And it made perfect sense from my perspective.

Anyone who can, please register on Jon's forum and say hi. Thanks!

http://forums.thedailyshow.com/?page=ThreadView&thread_id=28916&pg=1

.


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## nl3004.kind (Jul 31, 2010)

hobbes my friend, as much as i like the trailer park boys and the kids in the hall (destined to be new classics, i am sure) i could not follow the instructions or flow of ideas on the jon stewart website... i'm hoping that you chose to put it up here as well without all the other stuff, but i am impressed with all the tpb stuff you found to put with your instructions... it just didn't make all that much sense to me, i'm afraid...


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## nl3004.kind (Jul 31, 2010)

but i did try to sign up, and it wouldn't let me. so i'll just say it here: you, my friend are a scary smart person, perhaps to smart to be fully understood... congrats on the co2 extraction... looking forward to seeing it working... maybe youtube style? just a thought! keep it up... thanks again for this thread, it has helped me quite a bit.... and thanks for being here...


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## Hobbes (Jul 31, 2010)

.

A CO2 extractor is pretty much an expresso machine - at 580 PSI, and CO2 instead of water.

.

The white round dials are for temperature, we need 88 F at the extraction tube

The black dials are for Pressure - we need 580 psi for the CO2 at the extraction tube but will start at 3000 psi and end below 580 psi


*What do those two lines mean?*

1: You need hot water to make expresso.

2: We have to pour the water from above because it won't flow up.


3: Set the dials to the numbers on the model and you're ready to go.


The gauges, regulators, stainless steel tubes, CO2 tank are all right off the shelf; the resin collector any tank that can be opened. Plug and play. 

We're just not use to dealing with pressure in our daily lives and thinking of a gas as a solvent. Think of it as a liquid under pressure like a garden hose, it is a fluid, similar properties. Scuba divers might be more familiar with pressure.

.

The square grey boxes are pressure regulators - nothing more than a set of locks at the Panama canal. High pressure input on one side, low pressure comes out the other side? How? The same way the wiring in your car works - it doesn't matter, you can drive to the beach without knowing about electricity.

.

Pipes, tanks, regulators and gauges off the shelf. Simple. Screw them all together and pack your extraction tube.

All we are doing is running a solvent through plant matter, exactly the same as pouring hot water though coffee. The pressure differential between the high pressure CO2 tank and the low pressure resin collector acts as our gravity to force the solvent through the plant matter.

.








.

*"looking forward to seeing it working"*


Putting vids of mine on the web will do us absolutely no good, we'll just continue spinning in circles. Sometimes the process is more important than the product.

http://forums.thedailyshow.com/?page=ThreadView&thread_id=28916&pg=1

.



.


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## Big P (Jul 31, 2010)

Hobbes my friend i have recently been dabbling in opium tea using dried poppy pods obtainable on the net legally. The extraction process with those is interesting too, if you evaporate all the tea you end up with smokable cooked flake opium 


If you are interested i can pm you with a website that sells the correct kind of pods

The annoying thing is you gotta let the water in the tea evaporate off but you cannot boil the mix because it would destroy the morphine and codine in the tea


Somone suggested useing a centrifuge. Like the ones that can separate blood i think. Maybe ill research. That


Just thought i would mention this whole other world of the subject of opium and its exraction as it is somewhat similar to cannabis extraction


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## Hobbes (Jul 31, 2010)

.

Big P CO2 subcritical fluid extraction is what the pharmaceutical companies use to extract resin from plants. I'm not familiar with the properties of opiates if but they are soluble by CO2 a pharma would extract opium using CO2 SCFE. I'm sure they'd use this method but with a quarter million dollar machine. The smallest new machine I found was around $50K for a lab model - it's going to be more efficient (less CO2) and easier to use but resin is resin if the CO2 is passed through the plant matter at the same temperature and pressure.

I read an article about breeding an opium poppy that produces morphine rather than it being converted to morphine in the liver. Interesting.

.



.


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## nicodemusliam (Aug 3, 2010)

Wow! I am so happy to read your hub. I am new to this but delighted that you are like-minded. I want to introduced my self and let you know that I appreciate all you do! Very glads of you..


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## Hobbes (Aug 3, 2010)

.

Hey nicodemusliam, welcome aboard RIU!

Check back in a couple of days, I've made a working demonstration CO2 Subcritical fluid extractor model from stuff I had around the house and a couple of cheap things I had to pick up. The product can't be used because the extractor parts aren't all high purity stainless steel for corrosive fluids and gasses, but its the *daddy-O* of all demonstration models for our group. A few people will have most of the parts already but I had to modify a couple of them to make the scfe work, and its almost as cheap to buy high purity fittings second hand to make a usable honey oil.

The subcritical extraction process (basically the same as a butane extraction) is incredibly simple: *Constant temperature and pressure within a localized field*.







We do this by adding heat to overcome Boyles Law, (The Ideal Gas Law) - as a gas expands there is less heat in the same volume of space (the tank) so the temperature goes down. Some of the heat leaves with the CO2 we are going release for extracting, the remaining CO2 must be warmed to 88F+ so it can be used for extraction.

As well, the CO2 being used for extraction is reduced from as high as 3000 psi to ~600 psi - it is going to be cooled when it leaves the tank and must be warmed to at least 88 F before it goes into the extraction tube. I do this the easy way, you can do it an easier way.

We need the fast transfer of heat to the cold CO2 and maximum surface area will speed heat transfer. Water is much denser than air so it can transfer heat quicker. A small water pump in your heating chamber will keep the water moving to speed heat transfer - cooled water moved away from the heating coil and warm water moved against it. A stainless steel coiled hose has a small diameter and a great surface area for the same volume as a tank, better than a second tank for expansion though the second tank can be used as well as the coil.









We heat the CO2 tank in water above 88F and release the 3000 psi CO2 into the SS coil at 600 psi and use a small volume/minute of CO2 for extraction, to give the remainder in the tank and coil time to warm back to 88F. When we release the CO2 from the extraction chamber (~600 psi) to 1 atmosphere (15 psi) there will be a reduction in temperature as well, another coil can be used to move the pressure reduction point out of the extraction tubes heating water and into a second tank of water, and then the CO2 and resin are vented to a resin harvester. 

You guys are going to love my resin harvester, and the whole extractor. Very Trailer Park.


[youtube]T_mJmO7d6FI[/youtube]


.

Most of you folks will use two of the regulators below to heat your CO2, forget everything above. The regulators have inline heaters, or we can buy or make seperate inline heaters for second hand high purity regulators Part of the fun for me was to design an extractor that could be used anywhere without electricity (as an economic development tool), but if you've got electricity lets be practical. This stuff goes in number 5 on the sheet, I took it out to see if any paintballers or scuba people were reading the thread.







.


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## poplars (Aug 29, 2010)

what an awesome thread. I'm gonna be trying the hot extraction method today, I'm just wondering if heating it for only 20 mins is enough to get all the cannabinoids.


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## Hobbes (Aug 30, 2010)

.

Probably not poplars. The problem with alcohol extraction, especially warm extraction, are that:

1. the alcohol evaporates as we extract, lower proof is a less potent tincture
2. A warm polar solvent, takes out chlorophyll and terpins
3. Slow

I've come to believe in a non polar extraction like iso oil, then after completely drying the crystals or honey oil and using the extract in the tincture with high proof alcohol, glycerin or grape seed oil (makes a great sublingual spray). 

I'm not crazy about iso personally but it's fast and relatively safe. Butane Honey Oil can also be used with better taste. I've designed and build a CO2 extractor that will do a better job than butane, and is completely safe. In the thread linked below.

Have fun! Experiment, there are designs for plug 'n play distillers and extractors ->>> *skip the iso and go to this page*, you can extract with alcohol in minutes, then turn the extractor into a distiller by changing a coffee filter into a steel cup. Simple, safe, cheap, great product. Two step to get rid of chlorophyll and terpins. Closed system so no alcohol is lost.


*https://www.rollitup.org/cooking-cannabis/285016-diy-crock-pot-alcohol-reflux.html*


Starts around post #84 of this thread:

*https://www.rollitup.org/cooking-cannabis/125137-alcohol-tincture-9.html*

.


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## poplars (Aug 30, 2010)

well it didn't work well at all. I took atleast 3 eyedroppers full under the tongue, it absorbed nice because I evaporated the excess alcohol,

but I didn't get high at all.

grape seed oil eh? for sublingual? see I'm only interested in sublingual because I can't vape now and I hear you can potentially use less bud than standard edibles that go through the GI tract. plus near instant effect.

so, I decarbed my weed at 220 for 20-30 mins so I'm pretty sure that wasn't the issue. I let it heat in the water bath for 30 mins. 

the tincture had this color to it . . . 


I think I'm totally done trying with alcohol tincture. gonna order some grape seed oil online. what's the most efficient method with grape seed oil?

I'm mainly worried about converting THC to CBN, that's what happened with my latest batch of cannaoil, cooked it for like 14 hours on low in a crock pot but it was boiling at some points so I know it degraded the THC.

I'm thinking as far as that goes 4 hours is probably the best time, what do you think? grape seed oil with ground bud (activated) in a crock pot for 4 hours?

or maybe because of the nature of the grape seed oil perhaps you don't need to activate the cannabinoids?


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## Hobbes (Aug 30, 2010)

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqje5StAhCI&feature=player_embedded

(I'll figure out how to embed this video. Beautifully explained.)

.

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqje5StAhCI&feature=player_embedded
*
.


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## poplars (Aug 30, 2010)

yeah I've seen that before . . . .


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## Hobbes (Aug 30, 2010)

.

*"I'm thinking as far as that goes 4 hours is probably the best time, what do you think? grape seed oil with ground bud (activated) in a crock pot for 4 hours?"*

Excellent. I used 1 hour in a crock pot on high then 2 on low, stirring regularly.

Do you use a coffee grinder to turn your bud into a flower? This gives a more potent oil than using a bud grinder for vaporizing or smoking.

Here are two useful threads for crock pot oil. The first is a press to get more yield - and more potent oil, the most potent is what's left in the plant matter. The second a refining method that will be great for tincture, that green dragon taste is just awful. I've made some great oil using a crock pot, the press and refining.













*https://www.rollitup.org/cooking-cannabis/272993-diy-make-your-own-press.html*

*https://www.rollitup.org/cooking-cannabis/278166-refine-your-cannabuter-better-taste.html*



.

*"what's the most efficient method with grape seed oil?"*

- A subcritical fluid extraction with butane or CO2, then mix hot grape seed oil into the extract left in the tray. 







.

- Butane boiling off in a water bath, -10C outdoors in winter.







.

- heat the extract in it's pyrex extraction tray in the oven -* AFTER THE BUTANE IS BOILED OFF OUTDOORS* - 250F in the oven is good. Warm water to boil off the butane outdoors on the coldest winter day, is fine.







.

- heat the oil in a pyrex cup, in the oven.
- pour 75% of the oil into the pyrex tray, use the base of a fork to mix it. The mixing will only take a couple of minutes when the honey oil and grape seed oil are heated.
- Pour the oil into a container, squeegee the tray with a bank card to get all the oil out.
- pour the remaining oil into the tray, repeat the above procedure.


Very fast, I can go from plant to tincture in half an hour. Trim to brownies in an hour. You can make this to knock yourself out the first time, there is no more potent way to make tincture. No tastier way, no quicker way, no more economical way, no method as sure of producing success first time every time. 

.

*Plant to Tincture in 30 Minutes*

Without harvesting the plant.

0:00 

- Preheat convection oven to 300 F
- Trim leaves
- clip leaves into tiny pieces

3:00

- Bake leaves in a thin layer in a convection oven, on screens for air flow

10:00

- Pour the leaves into a mesh kitchen strainer with a bowl below the strainer
- crumble the leaves through the strainer into the bowl, hand or piece of wood
- pour the ground baked leaves onto a pre-cooled cookie sheet, thin layer
- put in freezer

12:00

- cool, improves yield

15:00

- Load pre-cooled extraction tube
- extract
- boil off butane (skip for CO2) in hot hot water

25:00

- Put the extraction tray and honey oil in an oven pre-heated to 300 F
- Use a laser thermometer and remove when it is 200 F
- Pour in Grape Seed Oil preheated to 300 F
- Stir with fork until the resin is completely dissolved.

29:45

- spray with CO2 to cool to 98.6 F

30:00

*Grape Seed Oil Tincture*

.

With the CO2 extractor just vent the extractor into a tall steel cup, pour in your oil, put the cup in the oven for a few minutes until it hits 250F, stir with a fork tip. Easier, quicker, safer, better taste, cheaper for solvent. 

My Trailer Park Boys Paintball Gun extractor






A Conceptual that almost killed me to make. I never get headaches and I stayed up all night figuring out how a CO2 extractor would work, could barely move the following day. I've never had a headache like that.







.


When making a tinture, or any edible, it's important to think about how many servings your bud will produce - too much solvent (grape seed oil) and the tincture is too weak to be usefull. Make it as potent as possible - then add more grape seed oil if one drop blows you away.

When I'm making brownies I use an extraction tube of 28 grams of baked dry trim or dregs from my volcano. I've invested in developing a huge tolerance so I'm not a good judge of potency, but one of my friends split one brownie (cut in 9s, so 1/18th of a tray each) with another friend before going to Avatar. After the movie the friend had to be helped INTO his car for a drive home. Now I cut them in 16s and my friends split them into 32s for an all night high. I can eat half a tray and be relaxed for a jog - I'm looking into making budder to get rid of my built up CBD. 

Sublingual spray will hit harder than edibles, faster onset, but not last as long. Less will be needed per high, my friends might get 50 or 60 hits out of a 28 gram extraction tube. (I don't give them tincture regularly, just an example for contrasting sublingual tincture with brownies through the digestive tract.)

Phife's butane extraction technique is on this page, the best explanation I've read. Follow the safety advice to the letter if you run it.

*https://www.rollitup.org/cooking-cannabis/300312-bhoe-comparrison-honey-bee-vs.html*

.

There's a picture of my Trailer Park Boys paintball gun CO2 extractor on the Grow Lab thread linked below, page 9, post #85.


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## poplars (Aug 30, 2010)

what if I want to do this all with ground bud? is it necessary to activate the bud before going into the crock with grape seed oil? is my crock too hot for that? or will I just have to do it quicker? (2-3 hours)


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## Hobbes (Aug 30, 2010)

.

1 hour in the crock pot on high will decarobylize the bud. I bake fresh cut bud at 225 F for 5 minutes after dry (40 minutes total for a toaster oven full), it's not too bad in the Volcano. The most intense high I've had off bud came from some fresh cut and baked Jack the Ripper I clipped over the weekend.

.

*"what if I want to do this all with ground bud?"
*
More trichomes per gram than trim but pretty much the same trichomes. Less bud is needed for the same effect as trim but the preparation is the same.

.

*"is it necessary to activate the bud before going into the crock with grape seed oil?"*

No, the 2-4 hours in the crock pot will do that.

.

*"is my crock too hot for that? or will I just have to do it quicker? (2-3 hours)"*

You're crock pot is perfect, you cannot hurt the resin at that temperature. The minimum I'd go is 2 hours, no more than 4 is needed. Stir regularly. Crock pots are Fool proof.

.


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## poplars (Aug 30, 2010)

cool bro I"m gonna hella get that grape seed oil.

so how much success have you had with sublingual tinctures (like taking it sublingually and getting high)?

I just really would love it if I could feel like I'm not wasting 80% of my bud to my fuckin intestines . . . . I figure successful sublingual extraction is more efficient.


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## Hobbes (Aug 31, 2010)

.

*"how much success have you had with sublingual tinctures (like taking it sublingually and getting high)?"*

Moderate, though I've only tried it twice. My friends have told me the tincture I give them is potent (a few drops put them away for an hour), but last weekend two of them could only do one hit each on the Supreme vaporizer and they were toasted for the night.

Grape Seed Oil Tincture is exactly the same as making oil for brownies. Exactly. I even use grape seed oil when I'm out of Olive Oil. So I'm making half of sublingual tincture 3 times every 2 weeks, and using that oil in brownies that could get my friends 32 all night brownie highs.

The other half of the tincture recipe is mixing the canna grape seed oil with high proof alcohol - I used Navy Rum & Bacardis 151 proof but the best effects came from vodka that I distilled with the French Press distiller. No taste, much easier to deal with. If you can buy Everclear, or another 190 proof clear alcohol, then you don't have to distil vodka. If you're getting into tincture it's worth it to get high proof tasteless vodka.

I rarely drink alcohol so I didn't develop the tincture. I can, and do, eat half a tray of brownies with little effect so the smaller amount from the tincture didn't give me the results I want. 

.

*"I just really would love it if I could feel like I'm not wasting 80% of my bud to my fuckin intestines . . . . I figure successful sublingual extraction is more efficient."*

I found that my edibles improved immensely when I did a separate extraction, then add the solvent to the dry resin. We can concentrate on maximum extraction results, then add the exact amount of solvent to get the number of doses we want. 

Perfect tincture every time.

.


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## poplars (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm probably gonna just stick to cooking milk for the faster effects.

do you know anything about cooking cannabis into milk? like how long I can cook the milk and how long would I have to simmer it before it's absorbed all the THC?


I've made it in the past with hella success, like 1 small shot will get you hella high within a half hour 

just wondering if you could help me refine this recipe.

and please don't say hash oil , I will make hash oil, hashes, kief in the future but as of now I'm not interested.


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## Big P (Aug 31, 2010)

Take your weed grind it up put in a mason jar put the jar in the oven at 225 for 45 min - 1 hour


Then its 100% decarbed and you ready to make whatever feels better


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## Hobbes (Aug 31, 2010)

.

Poplars I've never made canna milk but the recipe seems straight forward. The two things that stick out: use a double boiler and the fattest milk you can get. I found this recipe, it seems good and straight forward. If you make a herb press you will get more potent canna milk.

.

Cannabis Milk


For the same reason as above, you also need to be able to make marijuana milk, if you want to prepare all of these recipes. 

1. Put milk (soy or dairy) and cannabis into a double boiler. 
2. Cook on medium heat for half an hour, stirring often.
3. Strain cannabis from milk and discard. (rinse with water, let dry. Use for CO2 extraction later)
4. Store milk in an air tight container in the fridge. 

.


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## poplars (Aug 31, 2010)

half hour is enough???


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## Hobbes (Aug 31, 2010)

.

I scoured Dr Jay's site years ago, I use to go over the pics of his alcohol extractor and other science stuff. See if I could figure out what he was doing from the pictures. He was the head chemist with the DEA in the US. He had heppititis from birth and when the pain got bad for his mother and himself Doc dug into his DEA bag of knowledge and used marijuana as one of their main pain control medications.

Doc died in 2005 and his partners at the site keep things going, a great resource and some of the best and most efficient canna food recipes there are. These are two drink types.

.
.
.


*Cannabis Elixir*

James Freire, M.A.

This is a re-creation of an old remedy from the 1800&#8217;s. It involves suspending the cannabinoids in sugar syrup in what is known as a micellized solution. This is a very easy process similar to making candy but one should use care when evaporating alcohol (a distillation device makes this part very nice).

To begin, thoroughly dry the herb to be used and make a strong tincture (190 proof is best). Grind it to a powder and then just cover with alcohol and let it stand somewhere dark for a couple weeks. After this is done strain the alcohol from the herb and save it. The herb is now spent and can be thrown out. Place the tincture in a double boiler over ELECTRIC heat and reduce the volume in half. After this add ½ the remaining volume of tincture in honey or some other syrup and 4-6 vitamin E caps (e.g.: if you have 2 quarts of tincture after reducing you would add 1 quart of honey). This is when you can add other herb tinctures and flavors (I use a root beer flavor base). Continue to reduce the volume with constant stirring until you have nearly boiled it down to the original volume of syrup that you began with. Let this cool and bottle in dark glass, then store in the refrigerator. Depending on the original strength of the herb, the dosage should be between a teaspoon and a couple tablespoons.

This basic recipe can be used to create an elixir from any tincture and the basic cannabis elixir can be modified for specific ailments. For example, adding syrup of elderberry makes this without a doubt the most effective treatment for influenza that exists. Kava can be added for greater pain control and sedation. With a little study of herbal medicine you can customize the blend for specific ailments. There are many uses for this syrup, but my family has come to rely on it as our sole treatment for colds and flu when made with elderberry and cats claw.


.
.
.

*Nebu&#8217;s Hazy Hazelnut Bhang*

One of our readers has submitted a wonderful recipe for a delicious beverage that is guaranteed to be soothing. Nebu doesn&#8217;t like cannabis extractions using animal products like butter so he uses the natural oils found in nuts. These oils can be beneficial all by themselves particularly the omega three fatty acids. While Nebu and Nurse Nancy Wife both love Hazelnuts, yours truly doesn&#8217;t so I asked if you can use macadamia nuts. Yum, you can! You could also use walnuts if you like that flavor and want more omega three.

I&#8217;d also like to point out that Nebu and I discussed using flowers (bud) versus trim. High grade trim will work but not be as potent nor will it taste as good. Keep this treat refrigerated and use extreme caution as you can see from the recipe you&#8217;ve got a solid 30 grams of flowers into a bit less than four cups making this preparation one of the strongest I&#8217;ve ever seen.

From Nebu:

I thought I would share a little recipe with everyone who might find occasion to ingest their cannabis as opposed to inhale. I typically prefer phyto-inhalation (aka vaporization or volitization) of cannabis as method of delivery but, not too long ago, I was a bit laid out from an outpatient surgery and wanted to medicate whilst horizontal (to deal with pain), without the typical prescription narcotics/acetaminophens, etc.,.

I am also not a proponent of drinking another mammal's lactating excretion (i.e. cow's milk, etc.,) in any shape or form, so I use other forms of "milk" (i.e. Hemp Seed, Almond, Sesame, Pecan, Hazelnut, Walnut, Cashew, Rice, Soy). It's very easy to do and you get all the nutritional benefits of live, raw enzymes without the pesticides, antibiotics, white-blood cells, bovine growth hormones, etc., from "dead" milk (they have to cook it, "pasteurize" in order to kill the diseases, bacteria, etc.,).

Here's what you'll need:
Blender
Bubble Bag or other polymesh (75U)
4 cups Water (spring, 'live' water is best, or filtered)
1 cup Hazelnuts (or other favorite nut)
3 Dates
4 Tablespoons Raw Honey
1 Oz of Kind (lower nugs, else trim)
2 Teaspoons Vanilla extract (La Vencedora, if you can get it)
Pinch Celtic Sea Salt


* edit -> soak the hazelnuts in water overnight (necessary for most varieties of nuts in order to soften them). Use the soak water as part of the 4 cups in the blender mix, step 1 below.

1. Combine the water, nuts, dates, vanilla, and salt into the blender and blend on high for a good 5 minutes.

2. Strain this through the 75U mesh into a pot. Work the nut mush good to get all the juice out. *I save my nut mush for other recipes (i.e. nut yoghurt, mix w/dry fruits and dehydrate for trail mix/cookies, etc.,) 

3. Take the pot of nut milk, add the Oz of kind and slowly heat on low on the stove. If you can measure the temp keep it below 125F (the enzymes in your milk can survive below this temp). Slow-low cook for ~ 10 minutes while stirring constantly.

4. Remove from stove and filter thru the 75U again.

5. Add the honey to taste... organic cocoa (2 tablespoons) is also a good choice here to help mask the taste if necessary.

Chill or drink warm, as preferred. Makes ~ 4 cups.

Nebu&#8217;s Hazy Hazelnut Bhang came from these pretty flowers:







.


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## Hobbes (Aug 31, 2010)

.

*"half hour is enough???"*

That doesn't seem long enough. I'll look around the web some more.

How horrid is the stuff? How much can you swallow without gaging? I'll make a batch and give it a try. I've got some french press coffee makers and a pyrex tea pot that I bought to make an induction vaporizer, I'll use one of those in a double boiler. If you make this regularly I'd recommend water curing to get rid of the terpins and chlorophyll, canna food isn't too bad from water cured bud.

This is going to be just awful, I know in advance.







.


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## poplars (Aug 31, 2010)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> *"half hour is enough???"*
> 
> ...


it doesn't make you gag.

but it is pretty hardcore.

I take a small shot fast and follow up with milk right away.

I really would love to know the most efficient cook time for this stuff because it is DAMN efficient .


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## Big P (Sep 1, 2010)

best thing I found that nutralizes the nasty taste of tincs and oils is light blue gataraid for some reason it feels like it knullifies the nasty weed taste, but u gott chug it a bit


also if you chase it with beer works good too cuz beer is very flavorful and u just end up tasting the beer in the end. may have to chug a bit too


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## nl3004.kind (Sep 1, 2010)

also pom (not necessarily the brand) but pure pomegranate juice really seems to negate the flavor even of green dragon... from time to time i make myself an "adult beverage" to medicate, and it works the trick... just make sure that if it is an alcoholic based one, that there is enough mmj in it, you don't wanna get drunk, just feel better, no?? orange juice also sometimes works as well...


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## ShowStopper (Sep 13, 2010)

Just started looking into tincture and honey oil, and would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread, it has helped out alot. I would like to know if this sounds like a viable process.

- harvest
- water cure for about a week(none of the standard curing involved)
- use the butane extraction method
- add flavor extract to glycerine while heating
- heat oil
- mix oil and flavored glycerine
- enjoy

Any thoughts or corrections would be appreciated.


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## Hobbes (Sep 14, 2010)

.

Hey ShowStopper!

The only change I would make would be the water curing, if you don't already water cure - I've found it to be an inconsistent, slow 'quick cure' that produces poor potency. For a quick cure I bake at 106 C in a toaster oven, 2 racks of bud for an hour. 106 C won't hurt the buds. The cure is amazingly potent and smooth for such a short time. You can take a toaster oven into your grow room and your air filter will lessen the smell in your house.

For other quick drying methods you can use a dehumidifier or just leave the buds near moving air. Heating the honey oil in the oven, in the pyrex tray used for the butane extraction, will decarboxylize the THCA into THC. Let us know how it goes.

.

And a question about flavour:

*"- add flavor extract to glycerine while heating"*

Do you want the flavour or do you want to hide the marijuana taste? With a butane extraction there is no marijuana taste to the oil, no flavour is needed unless you want one. I would recommend not using flavour the first time that you make tincture, so: you can get familiar with the taste; fewer variables to consider when judging the potency of your tincture.

.

I'm going to make a non-alcoholic sublingual spray this week, I just finished building a magnetic induction vaporizer that took me longer than I had thought. I need a sublingual spray to titrate doses better than edibles through the gastrointestinal tract, and to give my lungs a break from the vaporizer. I find the vaporizer very hard on the throat, THC is an irritant.

Drop into the Grow Lab thread linked below if you get a chance ShowStopper.

.







.

*The Piker Magnetic Induction Vaporizer*

.



















The Piker has a stainless steel turkey baster housing and stainless steel kitchen strainer mesh in the baster for a heating chamber. The magnetic induction coil heats only the steel, faster than conduction and half the electrical use. 71 seconds for the Piker to go from cold to Vaporizing temperature, long smooth hits. The best direct draw I've ever used - my personal vaporizer list is on page one of the Grow Lab thread, The Piker is on page 16, post #156. The Piker can be made from items around your house or for less than $20 in new parts, plus a $79 induction hotplate.

.


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## ShowStopper (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks for the prompt reply Hobbes.

I have not done any water curing before, I wanted to try it is for time reasons. The only drawback that I have heard is that it leaves your herb looking brown. What problems have you heard/come across with water curing? Can you put it in the toaster oven the day it comes out of the ground? As for the flavor I have plants set aside for hash ,buds and all, but I thought that making a few flavored tinctures would be something new and fun.


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## Big P (Sep 14, 2010)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> Hey ShowStopper!
> 
> ...


 


forgive my insolence but where does the weed go?



i must say hobbes you are truley and evil genious


u must use your powers to become rich if your not already


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## Hobbes (Sep 14, 2010)

.

Hey Big P!

*"where does the weed go?"*

.

The white tube in the middle of the picture, with the small silver tube on its end, is a straw bowl from my Purple Days vaporizer. Use it just like a straw, grind up your weed and inhale through the white end and the stainless steel bowl with a permanent screen fills to the perfect amount. Absolute genius, $15 at VapeNow.







The SS end of the straw bowl goes in the small end of the stainless steel heating chamber. The only function of the tube and mesh is to heat the air going through the straw bowl, and it blows away the Purple Days and every other direct draw I've used. Some of my vaporizers are in post 10, page 1 of the Grow Lab thread linked below. I'll be putting an index in later, I've got the Tommy Gun, Armadillo and Clam Shell vaporizers in the middle of the thread as well. 

The Piker is the easiest to make and easiest to use of all the vaporizer's I've made, and it produces the best quality vapour of any direct draw vaporizer I've used. The huge heating chamber, with a large thermal mass and incredible SS surface area to air ratio allows for fast, deep draws of choking hits - again and again and again before reheating. It's like drawing air through a stainless steel sponge, there's almost no air restriction and the air stays at vaporizing temperature.


To make $125 in parts, including the induction plate, and 5 minutes plug n play. Quickly reaches vaporizing temperature, only high purity stainless steel, easy to make, simple to use. Hits however you want to draw, as hard or soft.







.

http://www.vapenow.com/Vapor-Tube-for-Purple-Days-1-tube-p-296/?zenid=be8f1ac2639e6f93bc8955c886d79554

.
.
.

*"use your powers to become rich if your not already"*

I've been playing with extracting oil from beach sand ... I've designed a water column compressor to make free solvent for my subcritical fluid extractor. I'm going to build a prototype then decide what to do. A friend wants to run with it and I feel that he's capable, he's already successful in business. If I think that we're on the same page when I get the compressor done I'll build a working scale model on site in Alberta to extract oil from tar sands. 

If there's anything patentable (I don't think there will be) I'll license the technology once I have the prototype tested.

That's in the Grow Lab thread too, or links to other threads are. 

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_sands*

.


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## Hobbes (Sep 14, 2010)

.

*"I have not done any water curing before, I wanted to try it is for time reasons."*

I highly recommend it, lots of fun. For someone extracting with alcohol or butter water curing removes the chlorophyll and terpins, improving taste. It has it's place, it's just a lot of work and unnecessary with a non polar butane extraction because SCFE will not extract water soluble terpins or chlorophyll.

.

*"The only drawback that I have heard is that it leaves your herb looking brown. What problems have you heard/come across with water curing?"*

Taste and trouble.

Water curing washes out all of the taste. I would clip and microwave bud to have some flavour even if it was bad. Changing water a couple times a day is a pain when you have a dozen strains growing, all needing separate containers.

.

*"Can you put it in the toaster oven the day it comes out of the ground?"*

Right off the plant. Trim the buds and clip small fro fast drying in the middle. One layer, space between buds. I use a screen over my grill for air flow.

I actually like baked bud a lot. I've got some knockout Jack The Ripper that I baked, it's the only bud I have that puts me away.

.

*"As for the flavor I have plants set aside for hash ,buds and all, but I thought that making a few flavored tinctures would be something new and fun."*

It's a lot of fun, a lot of fun testing. I'm gong to research sublingual tincture later today, I want a non-alcoholic tincture to give my lungs a break from vapourizing.

.


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## ShowStopper (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks for the help, got a few things to think about. I still have time, this round just went into flowering.


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## Hobbes (Oct 3, 2010)

.

Index: *Tincture*

Tags: *alcohol, distill, grape seed oil, spray, sublingual*

.

I'm compiling my *Tincture* thread into a chapter for *Weed Science*, I'm only going to post my recipe for sublingual tincture as the original thread is as long as this one and Weed Science is currently over 500 pages. The entire tincture thread will be organized with a linked index in the ebook but it will be a week before it is completely uploaded.







.

Tincture is an almost mystical creature, time consuming to make, the potency hit and miss, and the taste vile. This procedure will give you the most potent tincture that can be made with the bud that you have. The best tasting tincture, the most highs from the tincture. The fastest.

A tincture expert might still produce more potent tincture with their own bud or through more skilled curing with your bud - *but* - this method will give you the most potent that you can make because we are going to separate the tincture process into two simple parts: *Extraction & Solution* . By extracting the maximum resin possible then separating the resin/trichs from the solvent we know exactly how much resin we have and there are no water soluble solutes. We add only the amount of solvent (oil, glycerine, alcohol, etc) that we want to get the number of doses that we know the resin can provide (only experience can tell you this, start with as little solvent as will hold the resin in solution).

Extracting the trichomes can be done through: *hash making* (I have a portable washing machine and *bubble bags*; *subcritical fluid extraction* (butane honey oil and CO2 extraction); *Iso*; *alcohol* . Each of these extraction methods will be covered in the ebook, if there is one that anyone would like to go over in this thread please post. They are all very simple but most require safety procedures because of explosive gas and toxic fumes. Making good ice water hash is an excellent high purity and safe method of separating the trichomes from most of the plant matter and washing out the water soluble and foul tasting chlorophyl and terpins.

My favourite solvent is grape seed oil - fast, easy, great results. Grape seed oil has a very light taste, when mixed with high proof alcohol and sprayed under the tongue some of it will be absorbed by the blood vessels.

.

*"When a chemical comes in contact with the mucous membrane beneath the tongue, or buccal mucosa, it diffuses through it. Because the connective tissue beneath the epithelium contains a profusion of capillaries, the substance then diffuses into them and enters the venous circulation. In contrast, substances absorbed in the intestines are subject to "first pass metabolism" in the liver before entering the general circulation.

Sublingual administration has certain advantages over oral administration. Being more direct, it is often faster, and it ensures that the substance will risk degradation only by salivary enzymes before entering the bloodstream, whereas orally administered drugs must survive passage through the hostile environment of the gastrointestinal tract, which risks degrading them, either by stomach acid or bile, or by the many enzymes therein, such as monoamine oxidase (MAO). Furthermore, after absorption from the gastrointestinal tract, such drugs must pass to the liver, where they may be extensively altered; this is known as the first pass effect of drug metabolism." *

*Wikipedia - Sublingual*








.

*"what's the most efficient {extraction} method with grape seed oil {tincture}?"*

Kief from your grinder or from hash making, an *alcohol extraction*, Isopropyl alcohol rinse, a *subcritical fluid extraction with butane* or *with CO2*. Any safe method that you are comfortable doing - that gives you a high purity resin - is great. Then mix hot grape seed oil into the resin. 







.

Butane boiling off in a water bath. 







.

Heat the extract in it's pyrex extraction tray in the oven - *AFTER THE BUTANE IS BOILED OFF OUTDOORS* - 250F in the oven is good. Warm water to boil off the butane works well outdoors even on the coldest winter day. 

Add grape seed oil - I used 2 teaspoons (10 ml), I'll try 5 ml next time. Glycerine can be used instead of oil to make an excellent one part tincture.

Honey oil from 28 grams of baked trim.







.

.

I tip the pan back and forth to spread the oil, then let it sit in the oven at 250 F for 5 minutes.

Take the pyrex tray out of the oven and use a fork to mix grape seed oil and honey oil. A couple of minutes will completely dissolve the resin.

Tip the Pyrex tray on a side and squeegee the base to get all of the oil and resin. I use a plastic card.

Use a spoon to scoop the oil, pour the oil into your spay bottle. 

I bent a spoon with plyers - to have a spout on both sides - to use as a ladle.







.

Use the highest proof alcohol available. If you cannot get Everclear or an equivalent *you can distil your own alcohol in your kitchen with a simple crock pot or french press distiller*. You can also use the same apparatus as an alcohol reflux extractor for resin.







.

I use a Chloraseptic soar throat spray bottle, I like the extended nozzle to get each spray exactly where I want it.







.

The alcohol floats on top of the oil.







.

After mixing the alcohol quickly comes out of solution.



















.

Before shaking again I like to unscrew the top and spray out anything that is in the tube, the alcohol and oil will column in the tube as well.







.
.
.

The effects of this tincture are rapid, a couple of minutes. The influence of a set of sprays doesn't last long, 10 - 15 minutes for me, but the cumulative effect of repeated spray sets produces experiences of both longer duration and more complex sensations. It's a nice way to titrate the cannaboids to control effects while being fast acting and giving my throat a break from the irritating vaporizer mist. Very heady, much more powerful than a couple of Volcano bowls, very rapid onset. The effects are much more in the head than that from cannaboids ingested through the gastrointestinal tract.

For surfers or people who spend time on the ocean - taking a sublingual hit is like standing between swells: at first it's calm and nothing is happening, then the force of the next wave comes in and the water starts to rise, lifting you, and finally crashing over you. You take the spray under the tongue, a slight stinging to which you build immunity. Then nothing. A warm fuzzy feeling in the head and ... whoosh ... the wave hits you intensely, you tumble, its fun and peaceful. One of the nicest highs I've had, very powerful and clean.







.
.
.

With a little practice this recipe is easily made, I can go from plant to tincture in half an hour. The canna-grape seed oil can be used to make brownies from trim in an hour. You can make this to knock yourself out the first time, there is no more potent way to make tincture. No tastier way, no quicker way, no more economical way, no method as sure of producing success first time every time. 

.

Plant to Tincture in 30 Minutes

Without harvesting the plant.

*0:00* 

- Preheat convection oven to 300 F
- Trim leaves
- clip leaves into tiny pieces

*3:00*

- Bake leaves in a thin layer in a convection oven, on screens for air flow

*10:00*

- Pour the leaves into a mesh kitchen strainer with a bowl below the strainer
- crumble the leaves through the strainer into the bowl, hand or piece of wood
- pour the ground baked leaves onto a pre-cooled cookie sheet, thin layer
- put in freezer

*12:00*

- cool, improves yield

*15:00*

- Load pre-cooled extraction tube
- extract
- boil off butane (skip for CO2) in hot hot water

*25:00*

- Put the extraction tray and honey oil in an oven pre-heated to 300 F
- Use a laser thermometer and remove when it is 200 F
- Pour in Grape Seed Oil preheated to 300 F
- Stir with fork until the resin is completely dissolved.

*29:45*

- spray with CO2 to cool to 98.6 F

*30:00*

*Grape Seed Oil Tincture*

.
.
.


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## gwhunran (Nov 15, 2010)

How long do you keep the solution in the mouth for sublingual method of taking tincture?


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## Hobbes (Nov 15, 2010)

.

As long as possible gwhunran, at least 10 or 15 seconds. The longer under the tongue the more absorbed. Use as high alcohol content as possible, water in the alcohol will take the resin out of solution and change absorption from sublingual to gastrointestinal. 

.


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## Big P (Nov 15, 2010)

say hobbes have you ever dabbled in opium tea?


do you take tincs for pain or just fun?


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## Hobbes (Nov 16, 2010)

.

Big P I take bud for fun first and medicinally second, though I started growing for medicinal purposes so I could have as much bud as I want, when I want it. And that's fun!

I had both elbows operated on a few years ago, 6 weeks apart. The surgeon prescribed 100 tabs of Percocet (opiate derivative) with each operation but I couldn't take them at the time because of acid reflux. I had 190 tabs left over after I got better and took one when I had some chronic pain. Soon I was shoveling handfuls of Pills into my mouth looking to get the same effect as the first few times. When I was out of percocet I laid in bed for two days, curled up and in misery.

Opiates terrify me, I'll never take another willingly - there must be different {personality types / brain chemical build ups} and I'm on the addictive end for opiates. It's scary shit for me, I've battled my whole life to stay in control of my mind and opiates take that control away in seconds. Marijuana has the exact opposite effect, I've always got a Volcano bag near hand when I'm awake at home (often in bed falling asleep too) and often I forget that I have it.

Are opiates fun when they can be tolerated? Does the high always come up short of the previous time?

.

WARNING: Someone like Big P may be able to experiment and enjoy a wide variety of drugs without getting addicted, others like me are gone on the first pill. Addiction is like pregnancy, the only sure prevention is abstinence. 

*Be careful out there





*​
.


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## Big P (Nov 16, 2010)

well yes ive felt the horrible effects of widthdrawl but i dont have an addictive personality like others ive seen around me, i finally figured out that i can get blasted off of opium tea and if I let 2 full days pass of no tea use before the next dose I can avoid the widthdrawls

so thats what ive been doing. no doubt its a very dangerous thing to play with and makes you feel terrible when in withdrawl.


the trick is to let it all fade away before you dose again with an increased dose. u must always take same amount dose or its a downward spiral.


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## Hobbes (Nov 16, 2010)

.

*"the trick is to let it all fade away before you dose again with an increased dose. u must always take same amount dose or its a downward spiral."*

.

*Sage words, something that I don't have in me so I must be obstinate!

[video=youtube;gvxWdnu9iDE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvxWdnu9iDE[/video]*​


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## gwhunran (Nov 16, 2010)

Hobbs thanks for the answer. I used the heat method mentioned at the beginning of this thread. I have made nearly a pint. Using an equal amount by volume of medicine and 138 proof alcohol mixed with about 1 ounce of 186 proof lemon extract. 
As I am currently unemployed and job hunting, I will have a test subject test it and give me feedback. It is really hard to not self test but as sure as I do I will have to take a drug test. I will post again when I know the results of my efforts. 
Thanks again. 


gwhunran said:


> How long do you keep the solution in the mouth for sublingual method of taking tincture?





Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> As long as possible gwhunran, at least 10 or 15 seconds. The longer under the tongue the more absorbed. Use as high alcohol content as possible, water in the alcohol will take the resin out of solution and change absorption from sublingual to gastrointestinal.
> 
> .


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## IOWNEVERY1 (Nov 17, 2010)

just made this, this past weekend except changed the pre baking to 300 instead of 325. I used lemon extract as well. Question though Hobbes.......I have it still sitting in the weed from this past weekend and thought about letting it soak for 2 weeks. Will this make it more potent or is the alcohol already completely saturated?


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## nl3004.kind (Nov 18, 2010)

IOWNEVERY1 said:


> just made this, this past weekend except changed the pre baking to 300 instead of 325. I used lemon extract as well. Question though Hobbes.......I have it still sitting in the weed from this past weekend and thought about letting it soak for 2 weeks. Will this make it more potent or is the alcohol already completely saturated?


it will make it (sorry to jump on your thread hobbes) but it will make it stronger, leaving it to soak longer *will* make it stronger, but while it will strip more thc out of the weed, it will also add more of the terpenes and also chorophyll to the solution... 

at a certain point it is like music sex or art: you like what you like and other people's opinions are valid, just not necessarily to your own point of view... 

i've soaked it out up to two months (and i am particularly fond of hobbes' methods), i've added trichomes that were not going to make top shelf bubble (this is a particularly good use of the 23 micron product), used this tink to make candies and brownies and cookies... 

like sex, music or art: there are no rules beyond which one can not go... 

everyone has an opinion, everyone's opinion is valid and worthwhile, but experience will let you know what *you* are looking for... 

either way or not on this particular subject, however beyond a certain point (which it sounds like you may be at) it comes down to what effects you are looking for, what flavors you are looking for, medicinal relief provided by your own particular needs and strain... 

the fun part of experimentation is that you can yield whatever you are looking for just by recording the method and techniques used and then replicating them so you have a safe and consistent product for your own consumption... 

just my two bits...

good luck, and tell us how it ends up!


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## Hobbes (Nov 18, 2010)

.

Thanks NL3004!

.


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## IOWNEVERY1 (Nov 18, 2010)

awesome man thanks for the answer.....btw i tried 2 milliters of it today under the toungue. It took about 55 min and hit me like a brick. I was walking to class and BAM i was like im stoned. IT was my first time ingesting oral cannabis and it was awesome. I thank you Hobbes for the recipe i did exaclty what it said except i used 300 degrees instead and let it soak for a little under a week, and im going to let it soak another week maybe...idk it was pretty strong and i used under a 1/8th. I dont smoke often though so..that could be why. It hit me at 12 today and im still high but coming down. My legs were warm and tingly and i had a full body high and in your face. The weed i used was pretty dank i dont know what kind though.. I also used 1 oz of lemon extract instead and about .5 ounces of some 40% vodka...THANKS again


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## Hobbes (Nov 18, 2010)

.

*Sweet! Nice job IOWNEVERY1!!!






*​.


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## Hobbes (Nov 21, 2010)

.
.
.





.
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.





​.
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​.


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## nl3004.kind (Nov 21, 2010)

lol, hobbes, i love demotivational posters sooo much... i kinda want to print them on great paper, get them framed and put them in my workshop... nice postings...


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## Hobbes (Nov 22, 2010)

.

*Root Clone Test*

*Alcohol Tincture*

.

":c lap:"

.

Thank you Don and NL3004! I put this together for you folks tonight, it chronicals my etrernal struggle against the hippie menace. I couldn't get very many posters in even with a 10 minute song. NL the posters are in my Grow Lab thread if there are any that you want to download, they start on page 

I've got 50 pages of Holy Carvings (picture hieroglyphs) hidden away at Jon Stewarts forum, I'm going to make those into posters some day. In the spring I became obsessed with non verbal communication and spent 6 weeks in seclusion on Jon's Funny Stuff forum because I figured that no one but no one would go there looking for something funny except by accident.

Baaa zing! Don't forget to tip your waitresses folks, I'll be here until I get my threads deleted. Now for my stinging mamba song.

.

[video=vimeo;17076516]http://vimeo.com/17076516[/video]​
.

This is a beautiful song, to listen to it uninterupted click on the Only In Dreams video link at the bottom of this post and my Vimeo page will come up. Start the video then pause it and surf the web for 5 minutes while the video loads. I believe that the video can be downloaded from Vimeo as well if you'd like the *Adajio For Strings* on your computer or want a full page video to read the posters. One of the most beautiful songs ever written, this version is from Gershwin's album so it's sans that god awful helicopter chopping and Charlie Sheen's monologue. Just peace.

.


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## poplars (Nov 22, 2010)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> *Root Clone Test*
> 
> ...


that was seriously epic, some parts were not serious tho and it kinda messed with my perception of that video, was that the intention?


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## Hobbes (Nov 22, 2010)

.

*"that was seriously epic, some parts were not serious tho and it kinda messed with my perception of that video, was that the intention?"*


Very intentional, it's my mind emptying itself.

I've got a new version that I'm putting out tonight Poplars, 3 new posters and 55 new pictures. I'm going to have trouble squeezing the pictures in, many will be short duration - I've got series such as Crop Circle Of Bud corn growing from seed to be stem trained, I'll rattle through 12 pictures in 30 seconds, I still don't think that I'll be able to get all of the pictures in and still have the feel that I want ... its fun.

The new version will have much more of a story feel, a journey. I'm going to make someone cry, please post when you do.

.


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## Hobbes (Nov 23, 2010)

.

*Weed Science*

.

*Much in life doesn't make sense to me*, like a dance who's steps I can memorize but the purpose seems to be to dance as fast as one can. My mind freezes on the WHY people work the way they do and I don't achieve the results that I intend. Marijuana gardening has been the first thing in my life that has been entirely under my control, including my mind. The simple logic of physics and biology are sometimes head bangingly frustrating, but they are always simple and logical, and once deciphered pedestrian. 

Not only the produce, but the procedure of my garden has given me control of my mind and a slowly increasing influence of the world around me - yet I'm completely bewildered at the simplest motivation of another human being. The moderators on RUI have never been anything but the most kind to me, civil and helpful in every way - denying no reasonable request while asking nothing in return. If there is a hippie on RUI it is me - I want something from you, not the moderators, and I have not been able to find out how to provide you with fair trade without asking directly.

For those who've been following the thread for sometime, (Saladman, Shortbus, J.Cun, Mae, and too many others to mention) you may have noticed that I don't ask for help easily, I'm asking now. Everything in this thread has been given freely with no obligation of remuneration, I am humbly asking for your help:

*1. Watch Hobbes 11:9 (Adajio For Strings)*. If the video evokes an emotional response please post and tell me about it - good or bad. If you're offended by some parts that is important for me to know as well - the video is a work in progress, intended first for you and later for the larger community. I need feedback about what the video says to you. If someone posts a negative comment - PLEASE - do not respond. I am asking for the negative comments. As well, its time for us to fight the good fight - to save every resource for the important battles, not the ones that go away when our monitor is turned off.

*2. Tell your friends about the video*, email them my video page URL (*Only In Dreams* - signature section of post) and ask them to drop into the thread. Marijuana grower or tea toddler, we need everyone but the hippie. 

*3. Copy and paste the message at the bottom of this post to the RIU* contact address at the bottom of this post, add a few words of your own if you like. Ask your friends to do the same. We need a forum to expand *Crop Circle Of Bud*, I'm at the point in technology and technique that I'm comfortable brining in people from outside of our thread - people who haven't had the time to absorb what we are doing and why simple simple changes in environmental variables can make such huge changes in results. 

I need to be able to license *CCOB* technology so The Academy can benefit from the sale of products and marijuana seeds that the tens of thousands of views of our thread can provide. The Academy must at sometime support itself, this is central to the CCOB philosophy. At this point in time my only resource to finance The Academy is you, not from your money (I wouldn't / can't take a dime) but from the sale of seeds and technology that the success of your grows will bring.

.
.

[video=vimeo;17183070]http://vimeo.com/17183070[/video]​
.

*A full page video can be seen at ... the site that you'll go to if you click this link.*​
.

.
.
.

Please copy and paste this message to the RUI contact email below.

.

I support the formation of a Crop Circle Of Bud sub forum for the purpose of developing techniques and alternative technology for refugees and developing countries. Please contact Hobbes in the Grow Lab thread in the Newbie forum.

Thank you

.

*RUI Email Contact*

.


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## Noballs (Dec 4, 2010)

Hobbes, I made the tincture using the your hot extraction. Its been 1 and 1/2 hours. I dont feel too much effect from it. I looked at the cooked pot after heating and straining with my scope. Is there supposed to be trichomes still on it? I thought the alcohol dissolved it.


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## DSpellOmega (Dec 5, 2010)

Hey HObbes, just read through all 23 pages of this and bravo to your dedicationwith digging up info and posting for all of us to view 

I was considering attempting the Cold alcohol method, because i have no means of heating the product safely :/, and was wondering if you have any experience with this method or if anyone else has!


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## purplehazin (Dec 5, 2010)

DSpellOmega said:


> Hey HObbes, just read through all 23 pages of this and bravo to your dedicationwith digging up info and posting for all of us to view
> 
> I was considering attempting the Cold alcohol method, because i have no means of heating the product safely :/, and was wondering if you have any experience with this method or if anyone else has!


I found that it was worth it to buy a $15 crock pot at Walmart to do the hot extraction. Takes a few hours instead of 2 months.


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## gwhunran (Dec 17, 2010)

Been waiting a long time. Plants harvested in July. Have been dried, jarred, and cured. Wonderful smell and taste. Have only smoked one bud since and made up the hot green dragon. I have been waiting due to unemployed and concerned about a drug test for emply.

So I said screw it and tried some of my Green Dragon that had been aging for a while in a cool dark place. Dose equaled nearly three tablespoons. Took two right away. and the other about one and half hours later. 
It took about 90minutes to kick it so I dont' the sublingual part had anything to do with buzz. I took it at 1400, the real fun started about 1630. I enjoy this very mellow. Doing a little reading and playing some fine old tunes off the Zune. I think I might try one of the virgin monster buds of the best plant tomorrow. They are sweetly cured. Very outside layer has slight crisp, below that pure virgin stickiness.


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## gwhunran (Dec 17, 2010)

Plus I may have had a couple of shots of some sweet Home distillate also aged/cured. Life is sweet!


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## poplars (Dec 17, 2010)

gwhunran said:


> Been waiting a long time. Plants harvested in July. Have been dried, jarred, and cured. Wonderful smell and taste. Have only smoked one bud since and made up the hot green dragon. I have been waiting due to unemployed and concerned about a drug test for emply.
> 
> So I said screw it and tried some of my Green Dragon that had been aging for a while in a cool dark place. Dose equaled nearly three tablespoons. Took two right away. and the other about one and half hours later.
> It took about 90minutes to kick it so I dont' the sublingual part had anything to do with buzz. I took it at 1400, the real fun started about 1630. I enjoy this very mellow. Doing a little reading and playing some fine old tunes off the Zune. I think I might try one of the virgin monster buds of the best plant tomorrow. They are sweetly cured. *Very outside layer has slight crisp, below that pure virgin stickiness*.


 hell yes bro, this is what happened to my buds after I trimmed them up nicely and jarred.... the outside has a slight crisp but it bends in still  such a sweet sweet smell after only 1 month of curing .... and I too can't blaze it because of my lung, can only do edibles, but I know that sweet bud is waiting for me curing in those jars...


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## gwhunran (Dec 20, 2010)

I should have proof read my post better. Quite a few typos. I have tried the Green Dragon a couple more times to "verify" my initial impressions. 
1. my dose size was closer to 1.5 tablespoons. I was guessing using a dropper. I measured the dose accurately the last time.
2. peak effect came on more than two hours after taking
3. the buzz last a long time, It was going strong for 7 plus hours. 
I like this stuff. 
Question: If kept in a cool dark place, what's the shelf life of tincture?


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## poplars (Dec 21, 2010)

gwhunran said:


> I should have proof read my post better. Quite a few typos. I have tried the Green Dragon a couple more times to "verify" my initial impressions.
> 1. my dose size was closer to 1.5 tablespoons. I was guessing using a dropper. I measured the dose accurately the last time.
> 2. peak effect came on more than two hours after taking
> 3. the buzz last a long time, It was going strong for 7 plus hours.
> ...


hah bro since alcohol is a natural preservative, we're talkin 5+ years if stored right...


correct me if I'm wrong somebody


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## purplehazin (Dec 21, 2010)

poplars said:


> hah bro since alcohol is a natural preservative, we're talkin 5+ years if stored right...
> 
> 
> correct me if I'm wrong somebody


You're right about the alcohol, but I believe the cannabinoids break down after a certain amount of time. I wouldnt keep tincture over a few months. Just make smaller batches and store in a cool, dark place.

I ended up making some green dragon tincture about 10 days ago, and this stuff is great for pain relief. I take about 2 teaspoons orally with water and feel the effects within 30 minutes and it provides relief for a good 3 hours. I let the mixture steep for awhile on the stove so I have highly concentrated tincture.


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## poplars (Dec 21, 2010)

I highly doubt the cannabinoids would break down if you stored it in a cool dark place... there's absolutely no reason for them to.


cannabinoids either break down by oxidation, or too much heat. unless you can find a 3rd reason I'm going to bet that it could be stored 5+ years without any significant quality loss.


just because you're a heavy tincture consumer doesn't mean it wont last longer than 4 months


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## purplehazin (Dec 21, 2010)

poplars said:


> just because you're a heavy tincture consumer doesn't mean it wont last longer than 4 months


Huh?.............


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## poplars (Dec 21, 2010)

purplehazin said:


> Huh?.............



well why else would anyone do small batches unless they used it a lot?


for me I hardly ever touch it so I'd want a huge batch that would sit for months and months ya know?


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## purplehazin (Dec 21, 2010)

You want a LARGE batch because you almost never use it? That doesn't make any sense


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## poplars (Dec 21, 2010)

purplehazin said:


> You want a LARGE batch because you almost never use it? That doesn't make any sense


nah I mean do a large batch let it sit in th ebottle for months and months ya know? 

meh I guess we're not gonna see eye to eye on this one.


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## tinyTURTLE (Dec 21, 2010)

dont use weed. ice extract the hash and use that.


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## poplars (Dec 21, 2010)

I smoke my hash though... I just couldn't use that in tincture man not with a straight face....


I don;t care about the green taste or anything I can water-cure before I do it.. I just don't want to use my hash for anything but smoking.


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## purplehazin (Dec 21, 2010)

tinyTURTLE said:


> dont use weed. ice extract the hash and use that.


I tried both ways and didnt notice a difference in potency. Have you?

Poplars I get what you're saying now  It makes sense to me if you do it the non cooking way (letting the everclear soak the bud for 1+ month) but if you're making green dragon it takes all of 1 hour from start to finish, so I like to have smaller, fresher batches.


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## poplars (Dec 21, 2010)

purplehazin said:


> I tried both ways and didnt notice a difference in potency. Have you?
> 
> Poplars I get what you're saying now  It makes sense to me if you do it the non cooking way (letting the everclear soak the bud for 1+ month) but if you're making green dragon it takes all of 1 hour from start to finish, so I like to have smaller, fresher batches.


 for sure bro I wanna do it the lazy mans way.


easy long and effective 

if you've done it both ways im gonna just use shake/bud ... posisbly water cure it a bit before I use it.


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## poplars (Dec 28, 2010)

so I started my tincture yesterday, warm method... using 2.5 oz of small buds from 4 strains, mashed up in between my hands (not powdery ground but probably what you could consider perfect consistency for tincture..) and 4 scizzor hash balls probably equivalant to 2 grams .

I used 151 proof everclear (in california the 190 proof stuff is illegal, and I don't feel like driving up to oregon just to get everclear, maybe one day...) I figure that percentage should be high enough to get me sky high.

I put it in a mason jar in a paper bag in a warm place... gonna shake it daily and let it sit for atleast 4 weeks, maybe longer... 

anyone have some serious experience with the warm method that can vouche for potency differences in the weeks?


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## tinyTURTLE (Dec 28, 2010)

i used some e&J brandy to rinse the keif out of my weed jars for a few months.
let it sit for a few weeks.
filter the keif out.
pour over ice.
wow, what an experience.
i would never use weed, i don't want the green color.


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## poplars (Dec 28, 2010)

tinyTURTLE said:


> i used some e&J brandy to rinse the keif out of my weed jars for a few months.
> let it sit for a few weeks.
> filter the keif out.
> pour over ice.
> ...


like I said I believe hash and kief is for smoking, my lower quality scizzor hash I'll add as an extra, but small buds and shake are the best for that imo if you're a grower and use your product in many different ways... I just love smoking hash too much ya know....

but yeah I don't really mind the green, part of the process. our bodies can eat greens just fine, if you really hate the flavor then I can understand, but that can be mixed and shit without any real trouble...


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## Canon (Jan 1, 2011)

poplars said:


> like I said I believe hash and kief is for smoking, my lower quality scizzor hash I'll add as an extra, but small buds and shake are the best for that imo if you're a grower and use your product in many different ways... I just love smoking hash too much ya know....
> 
> but yeah I don't really mind the green, part of the process. our bodies can eat greens just fine, if you really hate the flavor then I can understand, but that can be mixed and shit without any real trouble...


I can appreciate where you're coming from!
I grow mostly for hash,,,
,, and I grow more for more hash! LOL (yup, like the hash for sure).

Try to wait until I get a couple gal. ziplocks of fresh bud and sugars for the hash while only saving a bud or two for smoke generally. 
I'l take and bubble that for one run. (my hash)
Then all the sorta used buds get dried slowly in the oven at 150F and stirred until slightly damp.
Then kick the temps up to 225 until I notice "that smell", then out to cool and finish air drying for a day or two. 
Then crumble up with the hands to a coarse powder and continue with oil from there (or tinc in this case). 
Having looked it over I see a lot of trichs left for the oil when looking through the scope. however, it's really not enough to make a good second bubble with IMO (I'll just grow more - LOL).

Thing is, I've been getting the green monster in the mix and I'm really asshamed to share the discusting green mix with others. ass kicking, but taste terrible to me anyways.

That's why I'm back here searching. Somewhere I saw some postings on removing the green from the oil. Something about being suspanded in water to get drained off for removal. 
When I find it(?) again I'll post back with info for you. just don't remember what site or where I read it. Plus I was probably burnt and may have read wrong. Seach is continued. 

But, no, I wouldn't compromise any hash for the sake of oil / tinc either. If anything I'll use some oil to lace some hash ect.
Hashish is the way.


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## nl3004.kind (Jan 1, 2011)

Canon said:


> I can appreciate where you're coming from!
> I grow mostly for hash,,,
> ,, and I grow more for more hash! LOL (yup, like the hash for sure).
> 
> ...


if you are hating the "green" taste/flavor, you could water cure the buds and leaves or even just blanch (boil in water for a couple of minutes) and *then* make your tink or oil out of it... easy peasy... try adn you'll see!


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## steven7685 (Jan 1, 2011)

for green dragon, can you use the heating element of your household coffee maker to heat up the tincture instead of boiling it in a pot of water?? 


and in the case of not heating the buds prior to extracting with alcohol, could you then also use the heating element of your coffee maker to evap some of the alcohol and possibly activate ( THCA to THC) ?? or is there an obvious reason that i am missing which explains why you must do this activating beforehand?

great thread. thanks for the information


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## nl3004.kind (Jan 1, 2011)

steven7685 said:


> for green dragon, can you use the heating element of your household coffee maker to heat up the tincture instead of boiling it in a pot of water??
> 
> 
> and in the case of not heating the buds prior to extracting with alcohol, could you then also use the heating element of your coffee maker to evap some of the alcohol and possibly activate ( THCA to THC) ?? or is there an obvious reason that i am missing which explains why you must do this activating beforehand?
> great thread. thanks for the information


it *could* be done, but there are a variety of reasons to not do it with the coffee maker, most important in my mind would be the lack of control: most just have an on off switch... 
if you must use that method, try using a crock pot or double boiler for the simple reason of being able to control evaporation as well as extraction... 
if you are using properly cured buds (dried then cured over a manner of time *weeks* or whatever you like), for the green dragon method you do not need to heat the buds as the thca has already been denatured into readily usable thc... the method of heating is when using uncured buds, leaves, or sugar trim... if you had the time and space, it is possible that if you cured your trim, leaves, ect properly, you would not need to heat your trim ect before making either glycerine, oil, or alcohol based tinctures... 
GOOD QUESTIONS STEVEN!!! clearly this is not your first rodeo... and welcome!


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## steven7685 (Jan 1, 2011)

so if i hang dry the plant for 7-14 days then cure the buds and or second trimmings ( tons of crystals) in jars burping until im happy enough to smoke, then heating in an oven is not necessary? correct me if im not understanding that .
thanks NL3004

on another note:

not too sure about the taste of my up and fermenting tinctures, so i went out and bought a "Raspberry" extract for flavoring (Raspberry Rum Tincture sounded tasty :}) 

after i got it home and gave it some thought and then a bit of research i started to wonder if this extract flavoring would mix well with the Alcohol tincture. it wouldn't be that big of a deal if i have to shake and mix the tincture every time to distribute the flavoring within.* also wondered if the flavoring would effect the euphoric and or medicinal properties of the tincture itself*. but it would be good to know what type of flavorings have what type of effect on various types of tinctures ( taste wise, portion usage, rather the flavoring mixed well or separated)

the ingredients for the particular extract i have are as follows. (water, propylene glycol, alcohol (20%), extractives of raspberry, citric acid, fd&c red 40, and natural flavor) 

i suppose the best bet is to do some experimenting my self and see what i like best. but any input from someone with experience tinkering with flavoring their tincture (without diluting it much) would be greatly and im sure widely appreciated.


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## poplars (Jan 1, 2011)

why add propylene glycol to an alcohol tincture?? wouldn't the alcohol be good enough by itself??


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## steven7685 (Jan 1, 2011)

excuse me. when i mention the ingredients for extract i mean the Raspberry Extract Flavoring itself. 

sorry for any confusion.

its flavoring. so i obviously would like to add it to flavor the tincture a bit.

i use bacardi 151 to make my tincture, and im not too crazy about the flavor of my finished product


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## nl3004.kind (Jan 2, 2011)

steven7685 said:


> so if i hang dry the plant for 7-14 days then cure the buds and or second trimmings ( tons of crystals) in jars burping until im happy enough to smoke, then heating in an oven is not necessary? correct me if im not understanding that .
> thanks NL3004
> 
> on another note:
> ...


on the first note: yes, exactly right... once it meets your standards of quality regarding curing, it's done, and you don't need to heat in oven...

on the second part: like much of life it is a catch 22: for maximum effect, the tink would be stronger without the flavorings (of any kind, not just the raspberry but any of them, unless you are using food grade essential oils which are hard to source, expensive, and extremely potent *thus making proper dosages limitations near the microgram level* ref= the 60's and lysergic acid dimethylamide manufacture) 

OR 

you can make it tasty with whatever extract you wish, but the end result will diluted somewhat... 

on the positive side: the extract does not change appreciably from beginning to end of tink making, thus you could (if you so choose) add any flavoring you want to the finished product to create whichever flavor you wish... 

i've had particular successes with vanilla, orgeat, mint flavorings but there are literally thousands more... though no appreciable difference in medicinal effect regardless of flavoring (sorry the raspberry flavor WONT make you trip more/harder)... probably...

good luck!


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## steven7685 (Jan 2, 2011)

yeah, i was expecting the flavoring to dilute the tincture somewhat, and by no means did i ever think it would make it more potent lol. 

but the amount i expect to use is like 1ml of Flavoring to a 1 ounce vial of tincture, and i think an oz of liquid if roughly 30 ml? would that be too diluted for effect, or to use under the tongue ???

i was more referring to using the tincture in a glass of your favorite beverage as being "over diluted"
i would also love to know is 1 ml of flavoring to an oz of tincture would be diluting the medicine too much.
but like i mentioned earlier. i love feedback and opinions


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## nl3004.kind (Jan 2, 2011)

for stuff like that, you gotta try and taste... 

what i like to do sometimes is make an "adult beverage" with tink (unflavored), just like making a cocktail... 

not necessarily a martini, more like a rum and coke... 

15 minutes and all that pain just fades away... 

for under the tongue diluted with flavor makes it more palatable... still plenty strong though... 

the fun part of this is being able to make it how it works best for you... that is the truly liberating part of taking charge of your medicine and treatment: you are capable of making your tink as strong, tasty or whatever you need... it is truly the best medicine...


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## gwhunran (Jan 2, 2011)

I just finished making my second batch of heated method tincture. The first worked very well. I used a pint of 130 proof/65% alcohol (home distilled) and an equal amount by volume of bud. I baked the bud in a toaster oven for 10 minutes at 300 degrees F. and added to alcohol and simmered jarred mixture in water bath on stove. I will let it pickle for about a month as I did last time. 
The last batch took about 90-120 minutes for the effects to really start. The buzz lasted around 8 hours and was very pleasant. Most of the time very couch lock with some intense ADD type buzz for a couple of hours in the middle. I like this stuff!


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## gwhunran (Jan 2, 2011)

One of the best ways I've found yet to dose with this stuff. One tablespoon held in mouth for at least 30 seconds. Then add another tablespoon to a mug of coffee. This seemed to give me the most intense/quickest buzz. I think the coffee may have gotten it into my system quicker. This was wake and bake. Empty stomach.


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## steven7685 (Jan 8, 2011)

so, ive been experimenting with the various methods of tinking. i have had a warm or room temperature tink going for a few weeks now (about 3), i have also made a batch of "Green Dragon" (heated method). although it hasnt been very long and some people suggest letting it set for longer and even twice as long, i can say that the green dragon tink is VERY EFFECTIVE! one dropper full (i believe its 1 Ml) held under the tongue for about a minute then swallow the rest down, this gave me an amazing body high that lasted easily 5-6hours and what was the rest of the night for me. super couch locked (computer chair for me) in fact. i found myself waking up a couple of times to a keyboard-pillow, which just made me laugh, but gave me PROOF of the effectiveness. 

i just got done with my warm/room temp tink,for this i used 4 grams of high quality buds accompanied by 7 grams of very high quality second bud trim. i didnt measure the amount of Bacardi 151 when i poured it in, i covered the plant matter but my guess is that i used about 5 ounces of liquor. after i strained out the plant material (3 weeks later) i let the jar sit with no lid over night by a small 60CFM computer fan which reduced my overall liquid tink to about 2 ounces. 

i am currently on an empty stomach about to drink a cup of coffee. but took 7 sprays (via atomizer) a couple under and a couple over tongue. i will report back with the effectiveness of the finished product.


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## purplehazin (Jan 8, 2011)

Thanks; good info.


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## poplars (Jan 8, 2011)

steven7685 said:


> so, ive been experimenting with the various methods of tinking. i have had a warm or room temperature tink going for a few weeks now (about 3), i have also made a batch of "Green Dragon" (heated method). although it hasnt been very long and some people suggest letting it set for longer and even twice as long, i can say that the green dragon tink is VERY EFFECTIVE! one dropper full (i believe its 1 Ml) held under the tongue for about a minute then swallow the rest down, this gave me an amazing body high that lasted easily 5-6hours and what was the rest of the night for me. super couch locked (computer chair for me) in fact. i found myself waking up a couple of times to a keyboard-pillow, which just made me laugh, but gave me PROOF of the effectiveness.
> 
> i just got done with my warm/room temp tink,for this i used 4 grams of high quality buds accompanied by 7 grams of very high quality second bud trim. i didnt measure the amount of Bacardi 151 when i poured it in, i covered the plant matter but my guess is that i used about 5 ounces of liquor. after i strained out the plant material (3 weeks later) i let the jar sit with no lid over night by a small 60CFM computer fan which reduced my overall liquid tink to about 2 ounces.
> 
> i am currently on an empty stomach about to drink a cup of coffee. but took 7 sprays (via atomizer) a couple under and a couple over tongue. i will report back with the effectiveness of the finished product.


I've had my warm method sitting since the 27th... I took 2 teaspoons under the tongue (this was 151 proof everclear) and I had a light head high. didn't swallow it though, I bet after a couple more weeks it'll be perfect.


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## steven7685 (Jan 8, 2011)

well by no means was i faceplanting on my keyboard, although i had a cup of coffee minutes after taking the tincture. i experienced a great body high that seemed to last from 10:30 am to 3:30 pm (about 5 hours) in this period of time i had absolutely no urge to smoke AT ALL!! when i felt the urge to smoke around 3:45 i assumed that the tincture was wearing off. 

i think dosage is the main factor here. i dont believe that i have had a "failed" tincture, so it would be difficult for me to determine the differences in potency between methods at this point in time. i will have to do some testing to see weather 7 sprays from my atomizer is equal to, less ,or greater than one dropper full. then ill be able to determine which tincture is more potent to me.


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## purplehazin (Jan 9, 2011)

Just a remider to dose small at first. One of the first times I was trying to figure out a good dose, I took 5 teaspoons which is 5 timmes more than a good 3 hour high. Anyway, ended up puking 2 hours later from nausea


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## poplars (Jan 9, 2011)

purplehazin said:


> Just a remider to dose small at first. One of the first times I was trying to figure out a good dose, I took 5 teaspoons which is 5 timmes more than a good 3 hour high. Anyway, ended up puking 2 hours later from nausea


ah thanks for letting me know I have a feeling mines gonna be easily that strong... I put in about 2.5 oz of small buds from 4 strains, then about 2 grams of hash on top of that... letting it sit in a warm space that is producing equivalant heat to the sun on a brown paper bag... exposed to no light, sealed in a mason jar... shooken every day.. 

I'm pretty stoked though, hah.


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## purplehazin (Jan 9, 2011)

poplars said:


> ah thanks for letting me know I have a feeling mines gonna be easily that strong... I put in about 2.5 oz of small buds from 4 strains, then about 2 grams of hash on top of that... letting it sit in a warm space that is producing equivalant heat to the sun on a brown paper bag... exposed to no light, sealed in a mason jar... shooken every day..
> 
> I'm pretty stoked though, hah.


Yeah that's going to be very strong, lol. 

I also have a mason jar on day 25 or something using the regular method.


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## poplars (Jan 9, 2011)

purplehazin said:


> Yeah that's going to be very strong, lol.
> 
> I also have a mason jar on day 25 or something using the regular method.


I'm just wondering wtf I can mix it with to effectively make it tolerable to drink. I don't think the sublingual method is gonna be best... likely best to just make a good mixed drink. I've heard cranberry juice is good but idk. any other suggestions?


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## purplehazin (Jan 9, 2011)

poplars said:


> I'm just wondering wtf I can mix it with to effectively make it tolerable to drink. I don't think the sublingual method is gonna be best... likely best to just make a good mixed drink. I've heard cranberry juice is good but idk. any other suggestions?


Honestly I just mix 1 teaspoon in with any drink (even water). The ethanol destroys most of the taste anyway... Cranberry juice would be fine; you won't taste a thing.


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## steven7685 (Jan 9, 2011)

ive put about 20 drops into a beer today and im feelin pretty nice! all i can taste is weed! its a great flavor, comparable to edibles made with canna butter.


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## gwhunran (Jan 9, 2011)

Poplars, if you like coffee. put it in you cup with some good real milk creamer and sweeten to taste. I think the coffee mixture binds to the tincture and gets it into the system faster. I like about a 10ml shot under the tongue and and an equal amount in the coffee drink good for 7-8 hours.


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## steven7685 (Jan 9, 2011)

i can confidently state that the tincture i made takes no where even close to 10 ml or if you put the same amount into your coffee 20 ml ?!?!?! for effect. if i remember right there is a little over 28 ml in one ounce, and one ounce in one shot. so you are basically taking 2/3 of a shot of 75%+ alcohol (possibly 98%), be careful, and dont drive when you do that LOL... my tincture takes around 1 ml for me to feel a VERY INTENSE BODY HIGH. 

i guess personal tolerances and tincture potency play a factor any way you look at it.

(P.S) it does go very well with coffee


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## nl3004.kind (Jan 9, 2011)

poplars said:


> I'm just wondering wtf I can mix it with to effectively make it tolerable to drink. I don't think the sublingual method is gonna be best... likely best to just make a good mixed drink. I've heard cranberry juice is good but idk. any other suggestions?


when i make a mixed drink with it, i add it to orange juice or acai berry or pomegranate juice... anything strong flavored is good... but not fizzy stuff, it just wreaks havoc on my stomach... welchs' grape, and or grape juice is another good option...


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## gwhunran (Jan 10, 2011)

What can I say Steven. I did say that I do get off on it real good I can't say that I've tried to drive on it. I mostly sit around and read/listen to music.
A friend of mine took the same amount and it started affecting her within thirty minutes. It takes between 90-120 minutes for it to start hitting me.


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## rockfish (Jan 10, 2011)

OK, so I made my first attempt! I made the hot extracted tincture described on page 1 of this post. I did it exactly as described with a couple of exceptions... I used 1/4 of decent Mexi brick weed, ground fine. Baked at 325F for 5mins - very aromatic! Cooked in 4oz Everclear at 150 -165F for 20 minutes. Strained and squeezed through cheesecloth. End result was 2oz DARK GREEN, STRONG SMELLING stuff. 

Now, I'm afraid to try it out... Not sure of a good initial dose. I know in the first thread he said one dropper would do, but I don't have a dropper and I don't know how big his dropper was... 

OK, so 2oz is equal to 60ml right? If I was to smoke a quarter oz., I'd get at least 30 bong hits from it. So I guess using that twisted logic, I should start with an initial dose of 2ml. What do y'all think?


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## gwhunran (Jan 10, 2011)

Oh, and the alcohol content is 128pf 64%. I make it myself


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## rockfish (Jan 11, 2011)

Alright, so 2ml was a _light _dose. I mean, I could feel it, but not really very high... I think next time I'll try 4ml. I put it in a couple of oz of cran-raspberry and drank it right down. Had an herbal flavor, kinda like strong raspberry tea.


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## nl3004.kind (Jan 11, 2011)

rockfish, you get out of it what you put in... if you use schwag its never gonna be stronger than if someone used headstash or unpressed trichs... but if you cold extract w/ glycerine or alcohol, you will get a stronger product (as long as you are willing to wait for it)... if you water cure or blanch the buds you will have a less strong aromatic flavor but the same potency as if you didn't... did you happen to heat it up to decarboxylate (aka activate) the thc before you cooked it? sometimes that effects the strength as well...


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## poplars (Jan 11, 2011)

nl3004.kind said:


> rockfish, you get out of it what you put in... if you use schwag its never gonna be stronger than if someone used headstash or unpressed trichs... but if you cold extract w/ glycerine or alcohol, you will get a stronger product (as long as you are willing to wait for it)... if you water cure or blanch the buds you will have a less strong aromatic flavor but the same potency as if you didn't... did you happen to heat it up to decarboxylate (aka activate) the thc before you cooked it? sometimes that effects the strength as well...


I don't understand why cold extraction makes it more effective... doesn't that require you to decarb the bud before you put it in? it seems that the warm method is the most efficient for strength.


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## nl3004.kind (Jan 11, 2011)

it has everything to do with the amount of time: if you soak *ANYTHING* in a solvent for a short period of time it will extract a certain amount, if you soak it longer, it will extract more than that... the cold method takes approx 2 months (i've let it go as long a four, but i didn't like how long it took, and the flavor was very very strong)... one should decarb the bud for the short method, one should decarb it for the long method... i've tried it both ways and found that the effects seems stronger for the ones that i decarbed regardless of the methods used (either short or long)...


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## poplars (Jan 11, 2011)

ah well I think the warm method is best for me..simple and ridiculously effective.


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## rockfish (Jan 11, 2011)

Yeah I get it, schwag in - schwag out. I wasn't trying to make it into something better than it was to start. I was _hoping_ to get a similar number of doses from the tincture as I would from Vaping. It doesn't look like it will make that mark. It will work for a dose on the go or for times when vaping is not practical or undesirable. Overall, I think the experiment was successful for me even if the final product wasn't all I had hoped. I'd like to get a little personal grow going soon and improve the quality of the starting product  Then, I would just need to improve the extraction technique and I'll be golden! 

P.S. I baked the ground bud for 5 minutes at 325F as described in the initial post. I had believed that this step was to decarb the product, is that not correct? 

~rock~


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## nl3004.kind (Jan 11, 2011)

nope, that would do it... 
since you're gonna grow for yourself, you may want to consider using your own hash, it will dramatically increase the quality of the end product...

water hash, ice hash, iso hash, alk tink reduced to oil, bho: anything will work...


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## purplehazin (Jan 12, 2011)

rockfish said:


> Yeah I get it, schwag in - schwag out. I wasn't trying to make it into something better than it was to start. I was _hoping_ to get a similar number of doses from the tincture as I would from Vaping. It doesn't look like it will make that mark. It will work for a dose on the go or for times when vaping is not practical or undesirable. Overall, I think the experiment was successful for me even if the final product wasn't all I had hoped. I'd like to get a little personal grow going soon and improve the quality of the starting product  Then, I would just need to improve the extraction technique and I'll be golden!
> 
> P.S. I baked the ground bud for 5 minutes at 325F as described in the initial post. I had believed that this step was to decarb the product, is that not correct?
> 
> ~rock~


You're converting thc-a into active thc


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## poplars (Jan 15, 2011)

so hobbes what do you think about using a coffee filter to filter again after doing the rough strain with cheesecloth?


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## purplehazin (Jan 16, 2011)

Unnecessary in my opinion, wonder what he has to think...


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## poplars (Jan 16, 2011)

well for the warm method there's lots of extra stuff in it and it'd be nice to know that I was getting only soluble stuff ya know. just wanna know if he has some actual experience on this.


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## janegayle (Jan 16, 2011)

I have read the information which you have mentioned here on Alcohol Tincture. And I am really knew something new after Reading this Alcohol Tincture Post. I was totally unknown from this Alcohol Tincture. And came to know after reading your this Alcohol Tincture.


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## nl3004.kind (Jan 17, 2011)

uhmmm what? 

i can't speak for hobbes but in my experience i've found that the coffee filter is nice (especially if you want to make sure it is completely smooth) but not mandatory, you know??? it doesn't do much else but take out all of the little bits, the best way i've seen to do it is to premoisten the coffee filter (with water) so that it does not soak up your tink...


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## poplars (Jan 17, 2011)

well I used the coffee filter and it took out a shitload of sediment. the tincture I made looks straight black!!!!

3 weeks warm method, used a shitload of small buds with like 1.5 grams of hash 

will upload pic shortly


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## poplars (Jan 17, 2011)

bump so my pic ends up on the next page...


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## poplars (Jan 17, 2011)

my warm method tincture!!! it is DONE!!!

made from small buds of 5 strains!!!, with about 1.5 grams of scizzor hash on top of that....

it came out RED when you shine a light on it, black without!


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## poplars (Jan 18, 2011)

so I took about a 2 ounce shot of this shit mixed in with a bunch of juice, drank it all down and god damn I almost had a whitey, it was SO fucking powerful... the looks are NOT decieving on this stuff 

will definitely be using the warm method as my main method in the future, this shit is off the hook.


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## Big P (Jan 18, 2011)

Ya that shit will pucker your asshole up, liquor is always nice to have close by if you take too much and begin to freak out

That shit will level it out


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## poplars (Jan 19, 2011)

I highly doubt drinking more alcohol will even you out after taking too much tincture... I was borderline dizzy from taking too much, I know for a fact more alcohol would just make this worse...


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## Big P (Jan 20, 2011)

the aclahol will take away the severe paranoia that can happen when too much tink is taken

like you know how they call it liquid courage, 

the fuckedupness you are feelng from the tink is not due to the alcahol unless you never drink and have an exreamly low tolerance. all the feeling is coming from the weed. infact if you start drinking before the tink actually hits you, it makes you more happy go lucky rather than, zoned out and quiet / paranoid


im higher schooled in this because I am highly sensitive to paranoia. at point in my life it got so bad where i couldnt even smoke weed anymore unless I was already drunk or I would just freak out in social situation or even if I was alone i would convince myself I was having a heart attack.

I new it was all in my head cuz it never happend to me if I smoked after drinking.


I had a kid take a 1/2 shot of my super strong tink. We were pros at the time taking like 2 shots of very power tink so i didnt think it would mess with him. but he had low tolerance all he could do was lay on my couch freaked out for like 3 hours.

he wouldnt take my advice and take a regular shot of alchol cuz he was a afraid it would just fuck him up more and he just had a terrible night.


but the truth is it sounds crazy but alcahol is the antidote for weed overdose. I know this from years of trial an error on myself and my friends.


I gave my new g/f tink last month for the first time ever. She was freaked out so bad that she went upstairs to hang out alone cuz she was so noid and stuff. I was teetering the edge myself and chilled happily downstairs by myself too.


anyway, i went upstair and gave her a few shots and she felt better, I had to take a couple too as I was getting a little freaked.


But I can see where you are coming from if you dont drink often, shit like 2 beers will get you buzzed. 

Ive since a while back got on medicatin for anxiety and now im fine when i smoke weed. I dont need to use alcahol as a crutch anymore but still use its powers when im off the wall on GreenDragon.


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## gwhunran (Jan 20, 2011)

How long did the two ounce dose last? I posted earlier about doing 20ml and someone said that seemed like too much. My 20 ml adventure lasted eight hours with most of it being relaxed almost tranquilizer buzz, with about two hours being the frantic/ADD kind of buzz. I do love this stuff. It will be my go too method when traveling. Seems a lot less risky than smoke smell and paraphenallia when no privacy.


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## poplars (Jan 20, 2011)

Big P said:


> the aclahol will take away the severe paranoia that can happen when too much tink is taken
> 
> like you know how they call it liquid courage,
> 
> ...



certainly possible it will help with paranoia... but when you're feeling intense borderline head spin, more alcohol will only make it worse, theres no way you could ever convince me otherwise. I do agree that it could help paranoia, but I don't get paranoid no matter how high I get so that isn't my problem..

btw this tincture I made 1/2 ounce of it will fuck you up, almost too much..


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## nl3004.kind (Jan 20, 2011)

well, everyone has different experiences, that is why you titrate the dose... 

if 1/2 oz is too much try one tablespoon (3 tbl in an fluid oz: kinda), if that is too much try one teaspoon (3 tsp per tbl), if that is too much start with a one ml eyedropper, and see where it takes you... 

everyone: is different, makes theirs just a little different, takes it for different reasons, likes/ dislikes different things... 

i personally like the alcohol tink better in a mixed drink, but some folks just put a few drops under their tongue, or make it with glycerine... 

everyone is allowed to experience their own experience in their own way... and that is a good thing...


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## poplars (Jan 20, 2011)

nl3004.kind said:


> well, everyone has different experiences, that is why you titrate the dose...
> 
> if 1/2 oz is too much try one tablespoon (3 tbl in an fluid oz: kinda), if that is too much try one teaspoon (3 tsp per tbl), if that is too much start with a one ml eyedropper, and see where it takes you...
> 
> ...


yeah I was merely saying how strong it was ya know. I know all about how to titrate dosages, its often quite overwealming when you're in the discovery phase though.


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## nl3004.kind (Jan 20, 2011)

i heard that... usually when i'm in discovery, i like to set up the bubble bath and soothing music on the ipod so i can cocoon if necessary... mostly even if i take a wee bit too much it doesn't last more than 4 hours for me... which is alright, plus if i'm really lucky, i can sleep it off...


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## poplars (Jan 20, 2011)

yeah that's the one thing that sucks about taking too much, its actually hard to sleep... too many things fuckin with your head


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## Noballs (Jan 20, 2011)

nl3004.kind said:


> well, everyone has different experiences, that is why you titrate the dose...
> 
> if 1/2 oz is too much try one tablespoon (3 tbl in an fluid oz: kinda), if that is too much try one teaspoon (3 tsp per tbl), if that is too much start with a one ml eyedropper, and see where it takes you...
> 
> ...


Wouldn't it be better to titrate up? Start with a small dose and work up? I hate the spins!


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## nl3004.kind (Jan 20, 2011)

sure would, that is my recommendation, but some people insist on going big to start...


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## KenzieKush86 (Jan 22, 2011)

I saw on another site, that you are supposed to let the mixture sit, un-closed, for 2 days to let the alcohol evaporate. Is this true?


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## poplars (Jan 22, 2011)

its optional I guess . . . . . . I left it in there and dilute it like 1 to 9 or w/e.


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## nl3004.kind (Jan 22, 2011)

hey, i know this is a bit random, but has anyone heard from the great wizard hobbes lately? ?? i pm'ed him some stuff, but haven't heard back in quite some time... just wondering if he is still on here... hobbes if you're out there, get at a grower! i've got some questions, plus i just wanna know you're ok...


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## poplars (Jan 22, 2011)

he hasn't posted on this thread since november but he was online on the 12th so I don't think there's anything to trip about.


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## nl3004.kind (Jan 22, 2011)

good stalking poplars... i totally forgot to check his page... thx...


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## Liminator (Feb 12, 2011)

Ok... so I've read pretty much this entire lengthy thread, and still have some confusion on a few points, and it's not because I'm baked lol. 

So, NL mentioned a few pages back that if your bud is dry and cured, you don't need to bake it to decarb. But then in other posts, the opposite is said. Which is it? Is baking dry cured bud going to hurt anything or only be airing on the side of caution?

Also, I know that most use, or want to use, the warm method for a faster result, but is it true that a room temp or cold (freezer) method for a longer duration (ie 6-8 weeks) with daily shaking ultimately provides a higher potency tincture? (which can then be processed in one of the many options suggested, if desired, to purify)

I picked up a bottle of Alcool today (95%) at the liquor store here in Montreal. 1.17 liters (39.56 OZ) was the smallest they had (YAY Quebec! haha). A bit pricey at $61.75 CAD, but it's a pretty big bottle, so I guess it's not so bad. That's a hell of a lot of tincture haha. 

I just wanted to be 100% sure of my starting point before filling mason jars. I have at least 6 OZ of bud that I want to use for tincture, most of which was either highly crystallized hermi bud or scrawny bud that's not so tasty to smoke. TONS of trichomes though, so I don't want to just chuck the stuff. 

If anyone has a suggestion as to where I should start, I'm open! I have patience and time, so slow methods are welcome too if it's ultimately worth while. Thanks everyone!

PS: I'm looking for a soothing, sedating full body buzz without all the nasty head shit that sometimes comes with weed. Man I miss smoking hash lol.


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## ifm (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi all,
thanks everybody, but especially to Hobbes, for the very interesting thread.
I was curious to know if anyone has experimented with the Autoclave Extraction described by Hobbes in message #21.
Some of the claims are hard to believe but as the method is quite different from most (combination of very high temperature, long cooking times and no air allowed to escape) the results are hard to just guess based on similar experiences.
Looking on the web I found the same message repeated on a few forums but no other confirmation or confutation of the method.
thx


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## nl3004.kind (Feb 15, 2011)

Liminator said:


> Ok... so I've read pretty much this entire lengthy thread, and still have some confusion on a few points, and it's not because I'm baked lol.
> 
> So, NL mentioned a few pages back that if your bud is dry and cured, you don't need to bake it to decarb. But then in other posts, the opposite is said. Which is it? Is baking dry cured bud going to hurt anything or only be airing on the side of caution?
> 
> ...


imo, science will show that the longer you put your buds in the alcohol, the more that it extracts- people use the warm method because they don't want to wait two months before they can medicate...

if your buds are dried and cured, then heating them up before you put them in the alcohol won't hurt, but if you do it for too long, they will lose some of their flavor and punch... 

the thing i would tell you is that to make it as strong as possible make sure to only just barely cover the buds with alcohol, and when it is done (regardless of method), you should start with a small amount of it (like drops or teaspoons, not ounces) and titrate it until you are right where you want to be... 

good luck liminator! let us know how it turns out.


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## nl3004.kind (Feb 15, 2011)

ifm said:


> Hi all,
> thanks everybody, but especially to Hobbes, for the very interesting thread.
> I was curious to know if anyone has experimented with the Autoclave Extraction described by Hobbes in message #21.
> Some of the claims are hard to believe but as the method is quite different from most (combination of very high temperature, long cooking times and no air allowed to escape) the results are hard to just guess based on similar experiences.
> ...


i believe that is mostly because most folks don't have an autoclave or the desire to get one just to make an extraction when there are a variety of other methods that are available to make extractions using household goods.... imo


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## poplars (Feb 15, 2011)

nl3004.kind said:


> imo, science will show that the longer you put your buds in the alcohol, the more that it extracts- people use the warm method because they don't want to wait two months before they can medicate...
> 
> if your buds are dried and cured, then heating them up before you put them in the alcohol won't hurt, but if you do it for too long, they will lose some of their flavor and punch...
> 
> ...


yep!

I did the warm method with a bunch of small buds from 5 of my strains I grew outdoors last year, with a few balls of scizzor hash... the shit is so powerful you can't even take a half shot without getting ridiculously high (depending on your tolerance..)

its pretty awesome stuff,I highly recommend it when it's done right...

though I also recommend you evaporate the excess alcohol after extraction... it will still work just fine, without the bite of the alcohol... this is all preference however.. it may store longer with the extra alcohol as opposed to the evaporated mix....


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## ifm (Feb 19, 2011)

nl3004.kind said:


> i believe that is mostly because most folks don't have an autoclave or the desire to get one just to make an extraction when there are a variety of other methods that are available to make extractions using household goods.... imo


Thank you *nl3004.kind *for your take on this.
I was hoping the ingenuity shown in many contributions on this thread could help in finding a way around the autoclave.
I am in a very cannabis unfriendly place at the moment so will not be able to experiment, but when I'll be able to I'll try the following:
The glycerine boiling point is much higher than the 155c needed for the preparation. So a simple pressure cooker should do nicely.
The problem would be controlling the temperature and the best way I can think of is using a larger pot filled with oil (not water as it would evaporate) brought to a temperature of 155c.
Put the pressure cooker (or another pot with a solid lid on as there should be no pressure build up at that temperature) in the oiled filled pot.
The thermometer should go in the oil to make sure the temperature is right.
This should guarantee a setup very similar to the one described in the autoclave method.
I am curious to have your thoughts on this idea.
thx


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## nl3004.kind (Feb 19, 2011)

ifm said:


> Thank you *nl3004.kind *for your take on this.
> I was hoping the ingenuity shown in many contributions on this thread could help in finding a way around the autoclave.
> I am in a very cannabis unfriendly place at the moment so will not be able to experiment, but when I'll be able to I'll try the following:
> The glycerine boiling point is much higher than the 155c needed for the preparation. So a simple pressure cooker should do nicely.
> ...


speaking only about the technical parts of your idea, yes it will work better with oil vs water...
however, the thing is this: the melting point of thc, thcv, thca, cbn, cbd all is lower than 155c and you run the risk of losing potency the longer you cook the glycerine...
i would recommend that you do it without a lid in the pot, using a digital thermometer with a thermocouple (like the one you could get a target for roasting meats: long wire between base and a metal probe) into the glycerine, keeping it right at 155c or so for as little time as possible... 
for me, i usually extract at 125F just so you have a frame of reference...
good luck!


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## ifm (Feb 21, 2011)

nl3004.kind,
I think the idea of the Autoclave method is very different from the method you use.
In fact the Autoclave method requires to leave the tincture at 155c for 36 hours.
That is why I mentioned that this method was very different from most others. Usually you have low temp and long times or high temp and short times.
This method requires the glycerine tincture to stay for a long time at very high temp.
I understand that thc,cbn and cbd may reach boiling point but once in glycerine, does that mean they would be released as vapor inside the cooker? Could this be the reason why the author insists the lid should be necessarily closed?
The reason why this method is so intriguing (apart from the promises of a highly potent oil) is that it is so unlike most of the other methods.
Would anyone with more experience like to chime in with any ideas?
Thx


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## nl3004.kind (Feb 21, 2011)

ifm said:


> nl3004.kind,
> I think the idea of the Autoclave method is very different from the method you use.
> In fact the Autoclave method requires to leave the tincture at 155c for 36 hours.
> That is why I mentioned that this method was very different from most others. Usually you have low temp and long times or high temp and short times.
> ...


the deal is this: regardless of what substance it is in, if it (by it i mean literally anything one is trying to extract including the good parts of the weed) is heated beyond the point of volatility (which happens to be below 155c for most of the thc spectrum), the thca, v, cbn, cbd ect is vaporized OUT OF WHAT IS LEFT BEHIND (meaning into the air, not into the glycerine. If the door of the autoclave is closed tightly, all that means is that the vapors will escape when the door is open. the autoclave is not a magical reverse distillation device in which somehow the laws of physics and chemistry are reversed... in fact, to me this method is similar to those methods of making cannabutter which say to cook it for three days instead of 3-6 hours depending on temp... the oil which you will end up extracting would be high in thc ect but not as high as if you had cooked it at 180*f for 36 hours, get it??
hobbes, back me up on this, bro!


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## poplars (Feb 21, 2011)

nl3004.kind said:


> the deal is this: regardless of what substance it is in, if it (by it i mean literally anything one is trying to extract including the good parts of the weed) is heated beyond the point of volatility (which happens to be below 155c for most of the thc spectrum), the thca, v, cbn, cbd ect is vaporized OUT OF WHAT IS LEFT BEHIND (meaning into the air, not into the glycerine. If the door of the autoclave is closed tightly, all that means is that the vapors will escape when the door is open. the autoclave is not a magical reverse distillation device in which somehow the laws of physics and chemistry are reversed... in fact, to me this method is similar to those methods of making cannabutter which say to cook it for three days instead of 3-6 hours depending on temp... the oil which you will end up extracting would be high in thc ect but not as high as if you had cooked it at 180*f for 36 hours, get it??
> hobbes, back me up on this, bro!


pretty sure it doesn't work like that. if the boiling point of the material the thc is in is higher than the boiling point of thc then it will essentially stop the thc from vaporizing out if it is soluble.


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## nl3004.kind (Feb 21, 2011)

poplars said:


> pretty sure it doesn't work like that. if the boiling point of the material the thc is in is higher than the boiling point of thc then it will essentially stop the thc from vaporizing out if it is soluble.


that would be true if the boiling point of the glycerine was below 290* c which it is... 

likewise the boiling point of thc is 157*c so unless you want to burn the glycerine AND the weed, you've got to extract it at less than the boiling/ vaporization point of BOTH. 

this is why i defer to people with *actual* science knowledge like hobbes when i've got questions or come across half-baked web theories...


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## WhiteWidower123 (Feb 22, 2011)

keep in mind boiling point and the point at which something evaporates are two entirely different things. one thing that you always have to keep in mind in chemistry is that a certain amount of EVERYTHING your dealing with is constantly evaporating away. Things like acetone that have low boiling points still evaporate rapidly below their boiling point. Hell, look at ICE, water evaporates off of ice. If you keep ice in a freezer with low humidity it will evaporate and form a fine layer all along the walls and roof. 

the fact is alot of these things CANT be awnsered scientificly without some serious equipment. Im an undergrad chem student seeking my major in chem and then i want to go on to get a masters in Ochem (i fucking LOVE ochem). So my knowledge on chemistry, however limited, is still decent. And yes, i make my cannabutter using beakers, stirboxes and heat pads. I swear to god my recepe is in ml. And I still see variance from 1 butter to the next.

Im extremely interested in tinctures. Im desperately trying to find a way to enjoy my cannabis again. I just cant seem to get high back. My cannabutter actually receives complaints from people who say they where just TOO high and crashed/woke up high, but i have to eat a good 1/4 of my brownie batch to see any results (which arnt impressive).


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## WhiteWidower123 (Feb 22, 2011)

Also, if i remember correctly Hydrocloric Acid (HCl) is made by pumping hydrogen gas through chlorine or vice versa. Hell, it may have been another chemical entirely, all i know is i remember reading about a process in which a gas was pumped through a liquid in order to bind them together. If this is a true process, it stands to reason that if the solution reached the evap point of thc BEFORE that of the butter/liquer/oil then it would be grabbed by the oil. The fault to this is thc...... stop error error....

rewind. I think we are using flawed chemistry here. first off, if we claim thc evaporates at point A, then it evaporates at point A... period. if it was then grabbed by the oil, would it take on a NEW boiling point of the oil? lets flip that question, if it was grabbed by ethanol... would it now have the bp of ethanol? This opens a world of problems...

if the awnser is YES, then oil tinctures will be amazing becuase they will create a more stable thc compound but ethenal tinctures would be shit cause they evaporate at room temp...

if the awnser is NO, then it doesnt matter what the bp is of the oil or tincture medium, the thc is going to evaporate... as it heats its going to rise to the surface and thc molecules that are on the surface are going to evaporate...


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## WhiteWidower123 (Feb 22, 2011)

Ok, i searched my mind, sometimes it takes time, i think i found an awnser.

Step 1
In any AQ mixture we see an even distribution of all molecules. Heavy molecules dont sink and light ones dont float. In an AQ mixture its all even.
step 2
in any distillation, we see that chemicals in the solution evaporate at their percise evaporation point, pulling themselves out of solution. We can use this method to pull ethanol (w/ a low bp) out of swill (moderate bp)
step 3
when thc leaves the organic material, it becomes a molecule, itself floating evenly distributed throughout solution
step 4
if we distill this, we will pull thc out of solution at its evap point just like any other chemical
if it where a salt, this would be different, its not.
step 5
put ethanol, butter, and a shitload of thc together, we can distill these.... ethanol has the lowest bp, it will evaporate first, all the thc in the ethanol will move to the butter layer, next is thc, it will boil off, then butter, leaving salts and fats behind.

with that path of reasoning, i see no reason that a higher bp chemical would "catch" THC unless it was capture thc that was being passed to it by a catalyst like ethanol, AND the solution hadnt reached the bp of thc. I COULD see how it could slow down the process of evaporation, I could also see fats in the butters causing a traffic jam and slowing down thc evaporation. 

Its possible that you could make a batch of butter with a skinny REAALLLLLY tall pot, use a mixture of ethanol, water, and butter, LOTS of butter. The bottom of the pot would reach very high temps, any temp you wanted really, causing evaporation and all kinds of shit, but the top of the pot would still be cool, hell you might even keep a solid layer of butter film at the top. I think that as the THC rose up the colum it would cool and bind into the butter... kind of like a fractional distilation where you never collect the distilate. this would require like a 5 foot tall pot though, and probably atleast 2 feet of butter at the top. meaning someone would have to be willing to make about 10-20 pounds all at once... if they are using high grade hemp that could cost on the order of 10-20,000 bucks. I wont be doing this :/


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## WhiteWidower123 (Feb 22, 2011)

nl3004.kind said:


> the deal is this: regardless of what substance it is in, if it (by it i mean literally anything one is trying to extract including the good parts of the weed) is heated beyond the point of volatility (which happens to be below 155c for most of the thc spectrum), the thca, v, cbn, cbd ect is vaporized OUT OF WHAT IS LEFT BEHIND (meaning into the air, not into the glycerine. If the door of the autoclave is closed tightly, all that means is that the vapors will escape when the door is open. the autoclave is not a magical reverse distillation device in which somehow the laws of physics and chemistry are reversed... in fact, to me this method is similar to those methods of making cannabutter which say to cook it for three days instead of 3-6 hours depending on temp... the oil which you will end up extracting would be high in thc ect but not as high as if you had cooked it at 180*f for 36 hours, get it??
> hobbes, back me up on this, bro!


Right and Wrong. This is where it gets fun. saturation! You can oversaturate the air, sounds dumb i know. When its super humid, it rains to get rid of excess moisture...
In a sealed enviroment, we will ONLY see evaporation of thc untill the air in the enviroment is saturated. I have no clue what the saturation point is, and so i have no clue if this device you talking about IS affective, but in THEORY it could be. Also, if you look at atmospheric pressure, that plays a huge roll. when you create a vacum, BPs drop WAY low. Vacum distillation is actually pretty common for seperating chemicals with similar boiling points. SO, the flip side is, if you could pressure cook it, the BP of all the compounds involved would actually RISE. Shake a propane can, theres liquid in it. 

In short, creating an enviroment with no/little air, lots of pressure, and no outside interference, you would see a dramatic decrease in vapors lost.

Also its worth mentioning if you just let the liquid cool before opening the pot, alot of the gaseous THC will settle again, but most will settle onto the sides and lid so it might not help much.

Its ALSO worth mentioning, that simply keeping a lid on the pot will promote positive pressure as water expands, it will also stop gaseous thc from escaping, keeping the air saturated. so tip number one would be keep a lid on the pan, and accept that nothings perfect.

ill end my 2 cent lecture. 
Im on some adderol, clorzepam, and good ol jane and lovin it. Very thought provoking high.

PS. For all those of you who want to worry about ONE MORE THING. When you heat the solution the water will expand/turn to vapor and create a rise in pressure (if enclosed). If you RELEASE this pressure while the solution is hot, then RECAP the solution, and allow it to cool, the water will then condense and create a VACUM in the container, which could lower BPs. Seriously though, I wouldnt be concerned.


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## WhiteWidower123 (Feb 22, 2011)

damnit! one last bit of food for thought.

Take a vat of oil and bring it up to 220 (waters BP but not oils) and add water to it. the water sinks, it then reaches the bottom and begins to get hot. It needs to evaporate but the oil above it is non-polar, and so the gases/water molecules cant reach air and dispell. this means the water super heats untill the pressure is too great and it explodes into a bubble of gas that rushes through the oil and splashes out the top, often burning french fry cooks. 

The same happens with ethanol and butter (which is why i dont recomend using ethonal in ur butter mixture unless u know what your doing). 

It stands to reason that if you could find a chemical that wont bind with water or butter or ethanol (none come to mind) AND will float on top of your solution, it could be used as a liquid lid. The problem is any liquid that isnt water soluble, nor soluble in butters/fats/ethanol... its probably fucking poisonous. I know that Naptha floats on water, but again, poisonous... plus liquids that are light enough to set on top of butter will probably have very low bps themselves, and will most likely be flammable.

the liquid lid would also not promote positive pressure, but if you could successfully remove air from the equation then pressures not a big deal anymore.


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## ifm (Feb 22, 2011)

> Originally Posted by savagepossum
> ...
> 
> Autoclave
> ...


 Thanks all for helping clear this out.
I put a quote (part) of message #21 by Hobbes. The part of the message I copied describes the autoclave method (AM from now on..)
I am not sure if it's coincidence but the temperature recommended is 155c just below boiling point for THC (157c) and other cannabinoids (source: wiki) and way below the bp of glycerine.
If we add to this the pressure coming from the autoclave (or pressure cooker) it should be safe to say that the idea of the AM is not to have the THC evaporate and then condense into oil again at the end of the process. That does not mean that evaporation of THC cannot occur.
Considering that glycerine is a solvent for THC at such a high temperature and for so long it should do a pretty good job at extracting the THC from the buds 
Given that the temp is just below bp of cannabinoids and that pressure is applied this should keep all the good stuff in the glycerine.
Does this make sense? 
Thx


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## poplars (Feb 22, 2011)

nl3004.kind said:


> that would be true if the boiling point of the glycerine was below 290* c which it is...
> 
> likewise the boiling point of thc is 157*c so unless you want to burn the glycerine AND the weed, you've got to extract it at less than the boiling/ vaporization point of BOTH.
> 
> this is why i defer to people with *actual* science knowledge like hobbes when i've got questions or come across half-baked web theories...


yeah I'm a stoner psuedo-scientist fucktard douche.

I don't know if you're talking about me in this post but it sure as fuck seems like you are.

I'd like to think I have a decent grasp of science, I have a decent understanding of how molecules interact to the extent of being able to tell you that the THC is likely not evaporating, but if the boiling point is higher it will degrade the molecules into CBN most likely.


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## WhiteWidower123 (Feb 22, 2011)

I dont understand your logic. 1) THC IS evaporating 
but 2) what do you mean it will degrade? explain your logic as ive never heard of this before
Ive heard of THC being destroyed via heat, but not altered. I thought you had to bind it with something or heat it in order to change its chemical make-up. In the process of heating it Ive heard of active groups LEAVING the THC, but not changing or degrading. Usually its a good thing, we call it activating thc (even though thats not exactly what your doing).


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## poplars (Feb 22, 2011)

WhiteWidower123 said:


> I dont understand your logic. 1) THC IS evaporating
> but 2) what do you mean it will degrade? explain your logic as ive never heard of this before
> Ive heard of THC being destroyed via heat, but not altered. I thought you had to bind it with something or heat it in order to change its chemical make-up. In the process of heating it Ive heard of active groups LEAVING the THC, but not changing or degrading. Usually its a good thing, we call it activating thc (even though thats not exactly what your doing).


I think I misworded... what I mean is when thc is in a mixture, for whatever reason, if it's something like a fat, it will stay in the fat and not evaporate. if it is in water, the water must evaporate first before the thc can evaporate, etc. sorry I'm pretty stoned so I may be explaining it kinda weird.

I've read many places that if you overheat thc it will degrade to CBN.... I don't know why, but this has been repeated time and time again. I overdid my oil one day, and it had a really light high like I could barely feel it, eventhough I used a shitload of trim. 

so the fact that I still got high means that the thc wasn't destroyed, it was merely degraded to not so good cbn.


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## nl3004.kind (Feb 22, 2011)

WhiteWidower123 said:


> keep in mind boiling point and the point at which something evaporates are two entirely different things. one thing that you always have to keep in mind in chemistry is that a certain amount of EVERYTHING your dealing with is constantly evaporating away. Things like acetone that have low boiling points still evaporate rapidly below their boiling point. Hell, look at ICE, water evaporates off of ice. If you keep ice in a freezer with low humidity it will evaporate and form a fine layer all along the walls and roof.
> 
> the fact is alot of these things CANT be awnsered scientificly without some serious equipment. Im an undergrad chem student seeking my major in chem and then i want to go on to get a masters in Ochem (i fucking LOVE ochem). So my knowledge on chemistry, however limited, is still decent. And yes, i make my cannabutter using beakers, stirboxes and heat pads. I swear to god my recepe is in ml. And I still see variance from 1 butter to the next.
> 
> Im extremely interested in tinctures. Im desperately trying to find a way to enjoy my cannabis again. I just cant seem to get high back. My cannabutter actually receives complaints from people who say they where just TOO high and crashed/woke up high, but i have to eat a good 1/4 of my brownie batch to see any results (which arnt impressive).


white: in relation to you seeking to "get (your) high back." there is one simple (but not awesome) answer and that is to take a "weed break" it is a very simple process, easily achievable by anyone and it is this: stop smoking, ingesting, or in any other way taking in weed for as little as 10 days or as much as three weeks, and then at the end of the time just smoke a little... your body becomes used to having it and then like everyone, it takes more and more and more to do the same thing... so if you stop for a bit, you'll be super impressed with how little it takes for you to get off... trust me, i'm a doctor...


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## nl3004.kind (Feb 22, 2011)

poplars said:


> I think I misworded... what I mean is when thc is in a mixture, for whatever reason, if it's something like a fat, it will stay in the fat and not evaporate. if it is in water, the water must evaporate first before the thc can evaporate, etc. sorry I'm pretty stoned so I may be explaining it kinda weird.
> 
> I've read many places that if you overheat thc it will degrade to CBN.... I don't know why, but this has been repeated time and time again. I overdid my oil one day, and it had a really light high like I could barely feel it, eventhough I used a shitload of trim.
> 
> so the fact that I still got high means that the thc wasn't destroyed, it was merely degraded to not so good cbn.


actually poplars, i think that if that were true, there are a ton of folks in the medical community who would be over the moon with an oil with a very high cbn content... 

some folks say it has better pain relief characteristics than most (high thc/low cbn) weed... 

anyone actually try this out *and* get it verified??? 

white widower: you use this method (the autoclave method) at school? or the overcooked oil part? let me know if it actually works... there are tons of folks out there who need/ want nigh cbn/ low psychoactivity meds for their pain (thinking ms patients and more)... 

poplars: i am not sure if we are arguing about the same thing but if you want to have a net-fight, perhaps you should look elsewhere... i respect you and your views, but am uninterested in a pissing match... ok?


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## poplars (Feb 22, 2011)

nl3004.kind said:


> poplars: i am not sure if we are arguing about the same thing but if you want to have a net-fight, perhaps you should look elsewhere... i respect you and your views, but am uninterested in a pissing match... ok?


lol why are people so quick to assume I'm here to fight.... I was simply discussing, chill.

if you're talking about earlier when I thought you were calling me a psuedoscience dumbass stoner yeah I was annoyed but further discussion isn't a fight.


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## WhiteWidower123 (Feb 22, 2011)

nl3004.kind said:


> actually poplars, i think that if that were true, there are a ton of folks in the medical community who would be over the moon with an oil with a very high cbn content...
> 
> some folks say it has better pain relief characteristics than most (high thc/low cbn) weed...
> 
> ...


 
I do what at school? sorry that kinda caught me off guard. I dont use an autoclave, or any kitchen utensils at all. This is ganna sound real dumb but i can show you pictures, I use a labtop stir box, heat pads, beakers, etc etc. My recepe is in mL. And it DOES work well, idk if its the best, but it works well for all my friends.

As for THC binding to fat and not evaperating. WRONG. Im not trying to be jerk, im just very confident. If THC binded to other chemicals and then took on a new BP, then you would NEVER lose THC. Fat DOES NOT evaporate. Take a glass a milk, boil it away, whats left at the bottom? fat. try it with whole and fat free and see the difference. 

So if your logic proved correct, thc could grab onto fats, sugars, and salts, and NEVER be evaporated... which we all know isnt true

also, "it was weak, so therefore it must have been converted to weak thc, or i wouldnt have felt anything at all". Again WRONG. when a mixture hits a certain temp, all the low bp chemicals dont just SHOOT out... it takes time. If you put a batch of thc in a pot that was 800 degrees, the thc wouldnt be immediately destroyed, statisticly, after 10 minutes, there would probably still be atleast a TINY bit of thc. producing a mild affect.

Furthermore, Ive always heard CBN/CBD used to describe non thc cannibinoids. theres tons of them. In fact, if you smoked straight thc you would get very sick. I do hear about the thc/cbn ratio for medicinal uses, but again, i just assumed that meant thc:non-thc cannibinoid. In fact i have heard of thc:cbn ratios MOST when dealing with right off the plant bud. Come to think of it this is the first time ive ever heard it discussed in cooking.


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## nl3004.kind (Feb 23, 2011)

WhiteWidower123 said:


> I do what at school? sorry that kinda caught me off guard. I dont use an autoclave, or any kitchen utensils at all. This is ganna sound real dumb but i can show you pictures, I use a labtop stir box, heat pads, beakers, etc etc. My recepe is in mL. And it DOES work well, idk if its the best, but it works well for all my friends.
> 
> As for THC binding to fat and not evaperating. WRONG. Im not trying to be jerk, im just very confident. If THC binded to other chemicals and then took on a new BP, then you would NEVER lose THC. Fat DOES NOT evaporate. Take a glass a milk, boil it away, whats left at the bottom? fat. try it with whole and fat free and see the difference.
> 
> ...


to the first part: i just assumed you had access to an autoclave (or were more likely than most to possibly be able to source one)... 

the second: i know, that was not the point i made either, but... in fact i seem to recall that somewheres in the nih or nida there is a sample of high percentage thc oil floating around, scientists are still waiting (40 years later) for it to evaporate... i seem to think it was ed rosenthal who wrote about that somewheres...

third: yep, exactly right...

fourth: usefully and interestingly right once again...

fifth: outside of the stoner community (and i am hoping that you are not offended by being lumped into said group), there is a big brouhaha about the existence of synergistic effects of non-thc cannabinoids (cbd, cbv, cbn most notably as well as others) it seems that there are 70 plus cannabinoids which exist in varying amounts in weed, and there is a large amount of anecdotal evidence that strains which happen to be high in cbd/ cbn are thought to be more effective in treating spasticity and degenerative muscular issues and the like... it seems that the reason for you feeling very paranoid and dizzzy and perhaps pukey after smoking pure thc is because these other non thc cannabinoids lessen the overall effect of the thc... while not entirely positive as to the exact effect of these 70plus naturally occurring cannabinoids scientists are currently trying to study the effects of especially cbn/cbd on humans, especially those in pain... look it up, and you'll know i'm not bs-ing... see skunk magazine, high times, treating yourself (an especially good resource, as most medical journals refuse to print scholarly papers regarding cannabinoids and their positive effects)... 

ok, scientist, help an old hippie out and try to see if cooking thc past the point of decarboxylation will make it degenerate to cbn, you'll probably win a cannabis cup if you can document it (and really isn't that better than a nobel prize?)... 

ps. taking a time out from weed will work, and will help you appreciate it more when you come back to it, trust me...


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## WhiteWidower123 (Feb 23, 2011)

AW FUCK, i had been writting for like 30 min and my fuckin browser crashed. Im going to speedily run through what I was saying (-the usefull explenations, if you have questions ask)

1) I do have access to chemistry lab tools but the chemicals and sheer danger in our labs means they are watched over pretty closely. getting caught = expulsion + criminal charges for sure. Weeds not worth that, or rather there are just much easier ways.

2) Cannibinoids definately have positive and beneficial affects. no argument there. The debate is if thc degrades

3) To determine if thc degrades to ANYTHING other than THC youll need to: extract it, isolate it, run an IR scan (infrared spectrum analysis). Apply heat / cook (put it through the conditions that it supposedly degrades at) and run another IR scan. If it only activates and doesnt degrade, we will see an almost identical IR with no activity in the carboxyl region. If it degrades into something entirely new, we will have an all new IR. We can find the chemical formula using the new IR, and compare that to lists of known canninoids to see if any of them have the same make-up. If they do, theres youre awnser. I really am shocked no one has done this. Isolation the THC is probably the hardest part. 

4) You can decarb using a base as well if you choose, or liquer, or fat without heat. BUT each extracts in its own way, so be carefull. For example, a base will not extract thc, but rather the carboxyl group.

5) when you use a base to decarb thc, you are left with a AQ salt. I find this interesting because it occured to me just now that if you are creating a salt, it will be soluble in water and insoluble in butter. So check this out:

put weed. 200ml butter and 200ml water together (maybe a dash of ethanol) and add NAOH or any other strong base
mix heated for several hours to decarb
when this is done the weed will be useless, i would never use weed that had been soaked in a strong base such as NAOH but stick with me
seperate the butter
evaporate the water
what are you left with? 
SALTS!! Now listen here, those salts are not pychoactive any may be poisonous... so dont eat it. BUT, now that you have this salt, you can determine the percentage of that salt that used to be carboxylic acid. Once ALLL THIS is done, youll know how much carboxylic acid (in terms of weight) was removed from solution. sounds kind of dumb, except that the amount of salt would DIRECTLY correspond to how much thc/cannibinoid was in the bud. In other words, this is a 4 hour cheap way to waist an 8th of bud if you ever want to find out JUST how good your shit really is. 

6) the decarb method i described above has promise in actual cooking, its just that a weaker non-poisonous base needs to be found first. Ill keep my eye out.

7) I decided i wanted to look at the thc molecule to kind of get a visual for it in my head, when i realized i cant find a single picture online of non-carbed THC. Can anyone find me a molecular representation of inactive THC? Somewhere in the molecule will be 2 Oxygens linked to the SAME carbon, one will be a double bond the other a single. I cant find this in ANY representation. Thats frustrating.

 I dont mind being called a stoner at all. In fact i take minor pride in being a stoner. I hate being called a pot-head though. So we're good.

9) Just found a THC molecule depicting the carb. Its attached to the benzene ring. But ultimately what i really discovered is no one can even agree on the overall layout of THC. there is one form that seems to have dominated the interenet and tatoos, but there are many other depictions (using the same formula) out there. I think that above all this proves that as of today no one really knows shit about the chemical workings of thc yet. Im worried that we found ways to work with it and THEN tried to explain why those methods work in order to create what we "THINK" is the thc molecule, if this is true we could be missing out on some amazing things by not... well... playing with thc in a lab. 

10) taking a break from weed. lol. It seems my body has forced that upon me. Its wierd, I DONT smoke a ton, but I do smoke everyday (i guess for some thats a ton) and its never really had much affect on me (other than I get high) but yesterday I woke up and my pipe was sitting on the night table and there was some ash on a paper towel from the night before (typical stoner stuff, nothing out of the ordinary) but when the smell of the res and pipe hit me, i started puking profusely. And now I cant go near burnt pot (or just any smelly ash) without getting really sick to my stomach, it came from nowhere. I had to bag my bong and pipe completely. So im taking that as a sign to quit for a while, and when i come back ill probably stick with the vape. I only smoke maybe a gram a day though, i just dont know where that came from. None of my friends have had the same issue.


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## WhiteWidower123 (Feb 23, 2011)

nl3004.kind said:


> look it up, and you'll know i'm not bs-ing... see skunk magazine, high times, treating yourself (an especially good resource, as most medical journals refuse to print scholarly papers regarding cannabinoids and their positive effects)...


Again, i believe your right, my concern is where those cbd/cbn chemicals come from, if they are already present, or created via degrading thc. I personaly dont believe thc degrades into CBN/CBD. 

And as far as journal articles go, thats changin fast man. I expect to see some pretty huge scientific breakthroughs for weed in the next 10 years. For once we see a drug with medicinal value, few side affects, and the world is warming up to it, its only a matter of time. 

The only reason we dont have super PCP and super Crack is because they where already made super by scientists and governments who wanted to use them as medicine. OBVIOUSLY they are a little hard to work with as a medicine so it was abandoned. POT most likely wont suffer the same outcome, once it hits the lab benches, its there stay. I truly believe that. Now we just gotta get it to a lab bench.


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## WhiteWidower123 (Feb 23, 2011)

poplars said:


> lol why are people so quick to assume I'm here to fight.... I was simply discussing, chill.
> 
> if you're talking about earlier when I thought you were calling me a psuedoscience dumbass stoner yeah I was annoyed but further discussion isn't a fight.


i hope you dont leave the discussion entirely. sometimes miscomunications happen. Im just like you, people mistake me for fighting when all im trying to do is talk. Debate is way more fun than just random talking. Gets me in trouble with my g/fs all the time :/

the reality is when two people refuse to agree w/o scientific proof, atleast one or both of them learn something by time the debate is over. Scientists bicker and fight and debate more than ANYONE. fuck poloticians, they dont have shit, scientists atleast have to debate with FACTS.


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## poplars (Feb 23, 2011)

WhiteWidower123 said:


> i hope you dont leave the discussion entirely. sometimes miscomunications happen. Im just like you, people mistake me for fighting when all im trying to do is talk. Debate is way more fun than just random talking. Gets me in trouble with my g/fs all the time :/
> 
> the reality is when two people refuse to agree w/o scientific proof, atleast one or both of them learn something by time the debate is over. Scientists bicker and fight and debate more than ANYONE. fuck poloticians, they dont have shit, scientists atleast have to debate with FACTS.


for sure, I should pull up a science book for this one.


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## WhiteWidower123 (Feb 23, 2011)

Or not I guess...


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## ifm (Feb 24, 2011)

Ok,
I think there is enough uncertainty on the Autoclave Method that we cannot rule out it works.
The only test is then to give it a try.
I will try to follow the instructions using a simple pressure cooker put in a pot with oil.
I will let you know how it goes.
It will take a few months: as explained before I need to relocate first.
Thank you all for your contributions and if anyone has results please post.
Thx


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## gwhunran (Apr 9, 2011)

Just tried another dose of some tincture(hot method) alcohol base. I left in pickling for 2months in the dark. I added a little peppermint extract and lemon extract for flavor.
I added exactly 15ml of the tincture to a good cup of coffee with real milk cream. As before it took about two hours to really start going and I was feeling it for over eight hours, with about two of those hours being really intense. I like this Green Dragon probably more than any other delivery method.


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## budlover13 (Apr 10, 2011)

I took a 1/2oz shot of my dragon last night. Within 30 minutes I was babbling like a baby. Talk about a good night's sleep though!


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## poplars (Apr 10, 2011)

hell yeah warm method???


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## budlover13 (Apr 10, 2011)

Yep. Started it on 3/10 cold method, but after talking to you I switched to the warm method to finish it. 1 tsp honey per oz and wow! My wife is still laughing at me and is threatening to spike my tea at dinner tonight


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## medmefreely (Jul 5, 2011)

New to this website and wowzers what an awesome thread! i'm only on page 5 and i've gained so much info and insight THANK YOU!! i'm super interested in the glyceryin tincs and just finally was able to purchase a small bottle at the health food store.. it was expensive there and i'm searching for other outlets so your suggestions there are a great help too! have to go offline now but can't wait to get back and read to the end of the thread


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## nl3004.kind (Jul 5, 2011)

medmefreely said:


> New to this website and wowzers what an awesome thread! i'm only on page 5 and i've gained so much info and insight THANK YOU!! i'm super interested in the glyceryin tincs and just finally was able to purchase a small bottle at the health food store.. it was expensive there and i'm searching for other outlets so your suggestions there are a great help too! have to go offline now but can't wait to get back and read to the end of the thread


online: amazon.com has great pricing and a wide variety of sizes, just make sure it is usp glycerine for human consumption... some of that stuff @70% pure is just garbage... i like the high 90% stuff myself...


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## Bad Beat (Jul 9, 2011)

*You said it should be green?* Hmmm I used the hot quick method. 4 weeks dry and cured outdoor sativa 3.6grams, good pot to smoke. 

I decarbed at 285F, or 140C for 30 mins in a make shift Aluminuim foil tray I made by repeatedly folding it for strength.
The herb had been finely chopped with sciccors to perfect consistenceny. 
Water bathed at 50-68 degrees Celsius for 25 min in 100 proof London Dry Gin. 
Reaction was a little foamy, not even, just a few bubbles round the edge, and gentle swirling and turning. The appearence in the jar was of golden green like when making clarified bud butter, and I was excited.
... I will just mention here that I didn't wash or rinse the heads before starting as this herb was in a burp jar... 

So anyway a Golden Yellowy bright lime green in the jar in the bath, 60mls had reduced as stated to 28 ml or 1 oz exactly. Thus I believe my methid was exact, then I strained and the liquid itself came out a murky amber with a golden sublimity to it. I then went a step further by forcing the solution through a 5.0 micron Wheel filter for Pharmalogical use, which really cleaned it up by making sure any organic material was left in the filter. The result was a deep Golden Amber honey coloured solution that is transparent. Sort of looks similar to ultra refined Hash oil but it is a solvent! It smells strong of both gin and weed I think?

Anyway what I'm trying to get at is I follwed the method and got a beautiful looking and smelling and tasting product, No ass water here!! But its not green!!!!! Its Amber?? Whats up with it? I smoke too much to properly gauge its strength. Any Ideas or science on what went wrong? Hmmmm a little disapointed that I may have wasted good weed? Please reply either here or PM. 
Cheers your a wealth of info Hobbes. Love your work


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## Randyd (Dec 20, 2012)

Can you add rock candy or something similar to help the taste when using everclear?


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## budlover13 (Dec 20, 2012)

Randyd said:


> Can you add rock candy or something similar to help the taste when using everclear?


Sure. No prob in doing that. It'll change the taste but won't stop the burn.


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## inspiredgardener (Jan 14, 2013)

I've still got pages and pages to read but thank you for all this useful, detailed information.


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## TheWhiteRabbit420 (Jan 21, 2013)

Hobbes said:


> I had tried a tincture someone had made using the cold extraction method with the same amount of cannabis and found that 5 droppers did pretty much nothing.



Taking five drops of Green Dragon made using the cold extraction did nothing for you?


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## demonhaze (Feb 7, 2013)

So I'm making this and I'm wondering what exactly the shake ball can be used for?


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## demonhaze (Feb 8, 2013)

Anybody? Cmon please answer the question


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## budlover13 (Feb 8, 2013)

I've never tried to use it for anything. I figure that given the strength of alcohol I use and the length of time I soak it, there likely ain't much but plant matter left in the ball.


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## demonhaze (Feb 8, 2013)

Lol yeah that what I figure too, but ts said u can use it idk


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## budlover13 (Feb 8, 2013)

Well, a buddy made a tea out of his and it tasted, well, like weed water. VERY earthy. Not BAD, but meh.... Didn't do a thing for me either.


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## Kanivers (Feb 11, 2013)

I made GD out of vapor poo last week and it rocked my world. I used equal parts by volume and let it sit 3 days with no heat and strained. Added half the amount of VG to it to increase it by 1/3 volume. Hits fast and lasts for hours. J*ust a tip: grapefruit juice completely masks the taste 100%. No bitterness, no weird chlorophyll taste, just pure grapefruit. *


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## demonhaze (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm making a tincture with 190 proof alcohol. Hard to mask that taste lol


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## Kanivers (Feb 11, 2013)

demonhaze said:


> I'm making a tincture with 190 proof alcohol. Hard to mask that taste lol


I am as well. Trust me...grapefruit juice!


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## demonhaze (Feb 11, 2013)

Well damn, then I'll try it


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## demonhaze (Mar 8, 2013)

So in just 11 days my tinc will be finished. I'll let y'all know how it is


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## oldchuck (Mar 10, 2013)

demonhaze said:


> So I'm making this and I'm wondering what exactly the shake ball can be used for?


I do a quick cold extraction. The shake ball still has a lot of good stuff in it. I cover it with olive oil and coconut oil, simmer on the stove in a water bath for long stretches over a two or three day period at maybe 150 F. Then strain it, not too worried about fine particles. Finally add bee's wax to thicken the oil into an ointment. Use topically for arthritis, skin abrasions, eczema, dry skin, whatever.


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## demonhaze (Mar 10, 2013)

Hmm sounds crazy lol, it actually takes pain away without smoking or ingesting?


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## budlover13 (Mar 11, 2013)

oldchuck said:


> I do a quick cold extraction. The shake ball still has a lot of good stuff in it. I cover it with olive oil and coconut oil, simmer on the stove in a water bath for long stretches over a two or three day period at maybe 150 F. Then strain it, not too worried about fine particles. Finally add bee's wax to thicken the oil into an ointment. Use topically for arthritis, skin abrasions, eczema, dry skin, whatever.


I make my topical rub from 91% ISO, bud/trim, and a little olive oil. Let it sit 6-10 weeks and strain. And yes, it relieves pain


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## demonhaze (Mar 20, 2013)

Tincture review- I did the warm method described on the first page. I used grassomatic auto ak, it didn't yield for shit so I just used the entire plant buds and all. Taste is poor but mixed its fine, its a very dark green color, when I strained it through the cheese cloth some trichs still made it through, potency is pretty wicked, an eye dropper full has me high. Was going to do a shot but I think a shot would put a horse down lol. I'm happy with how it turned out and I would try it again in the future


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## pokerg1 (Apr 19, 2013)

would the warm method work if i just leave it in the closet for 2 months and shake it everyday instead of putting it in a warm spot like under a window?


and anyone that made a successful warm method tincture, decarbing the bud matter?


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## demonhaze (Apr 19, 2013)

If the closet stays warm it should work


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## pokerg1 (Apr 20, 2013)

demonhaze said:


> If the closet stays warm it should work


so if its at room temperature its not going to work?


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## demonhaze (Apr 20, 2013)

65-80 degrees will work


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## pokerg1 (Apr 20, 2013)

demonhaze said:


> Tincture review- I did the warm method described on the first page. I used grassomatic auto ak, it didn't yield for shit so I just used the entire plant buds and all. Taste is poor but mixed its fine, its a very dark green color, when I strained it through the cheese cloth some trichs still made it through, potency is pretty wicked, an eye dropper full has me high. Was going to do a shot but I think a shot would put a horse down lol. I'm happy with how it turned out and I would try it again in the future


hey when u made your tincture did you open it at all to let it breathe? or just keep it closed until its time to strain?

how long did u let it sit also? i am curious


i have it in a mason jar and i want to make it right the first time =P


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## demonhaze (Apr 20, 2013)

I left mine shut, don't let much light get to it either


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## pokerg1 (Apr 20, 2013)

how many days did u let it sit??


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## pokerg1 (Apr 20, 2013)

demonhaze said:


> I left mine shut, don't let much light get to it either


how many days did u let it sit?


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## demonhaze (Apr 20, 2013)

60 days is what I left mine


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## pokerg1 (Apr 26, 2013)

demonhaze said:


> 60 days is what I left mine


hey sry for so many questions but what bud/alcohol ratio u use to get it so strong?


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## demonhaze (Apr 27, 2013)

I didn't use bud man. I used mostly leaf and just a tiny bit of bud. But there was about 35 grams and I used 2 cups of everclear


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## pokerg1 (Apr 29, 2013)

demonhaze said:


> I didn't use bud man. I used mostly leaf and just a tiny bit of bud. But there was about 35 grams and I used 2 cups of everclear


did u decarb your bud?


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## fatboyOGOF (May 25, 2013)

i just tried tincture for the first time. i've been toking since 1969. i'm impressed. 2 small drops and i had a lovely buzz and no pain. i usually get very uncomfortable after sitting for awhile. i've been sitting for a couple hours and feel fine.

i've been eating pot but i think i may switch to this. nasty firecrackers or delicious tincture...

the great thing is, i have 2 bottles of it and it was free.


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## demonhaze (May 25, 2013)

Nice Fatboy, yeah last year was the first time I Ever tried it but I'll be making it a lot more from here on out


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## Dogenzengi (May 25, 2013)

Try putting the drops under you tongue, I put two drops at a time and hold for 10 seconds, I do this 4-6 times so 8 to 12 droplets.
the buzz will come quickly, easily within 15 minutes you will be buzzed.
to use a tincture under your tongue the alcohol must be flavored so it does not burn, I use honey and vanilla in my alcohol tincture to sweeten and reduce the burn
Peace,
DZ


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## fatboyOGOF (May 26, 2013)

Dogenzengi said:


> Try putting the drops under you tongue, I put two drops at a time and hold for 10 seconds, I do this 4-6 times so 8 to 12 droplets.
> the buzz will come quickly, easily within 15 minutes you will be buzzed.
> to use a tincture under your tongue the alcohol must be flavored so it does not burn, I use honey and vanilla in my alcohol tincture to sweeten and reduce the burn
> Peace,
> DZ


good point. i put it on my tongue at first, but after some reading realized it's an under the tongue thing.

so you just do a couple drops at a time and do that a few times each session. that's a great idea and i'll do it next time. the more i have under my tongue, the more i want to swallow. 

i'm doing 6 drops at a time every hour or so. the guy i got it from takes 2 droppers full. 
there are about 20 to 25 drops in a dropper, i get a nice buzz on 6 drops, 2 droppers full would kill me. 

he doesn't use alcohol. after reading dozens of posts of people saying they've tried a few different tictures, and didn't get a buzz or any relief, i'm really impressed with this stuff.

as i'm getting more used to it, i'm upping the dosage each time. i was surprised to hear that he uses around a gram of bud per bottle, i thought it would be more than that. one bottle should last me 2 to 3 days. i'm thinking with larger doses, i won't be doing it every hour.

i smoke 3.5 grams a day so i'm definitely going to get more tincture. i've smoked one joint so far today. i would usually be 1/2 way through my 3rd by now.

i read about tinctures years ago but kept reading posts about people not getting high so i blew it off. apparently, even with good quality, some get high and some don't.

i usually "prime the pump" when i eat pot by taking a few tokes 1/2 hour after eating it. i'm thinking it might be the same deal with the tincture. so about 15 minutes after taking it, i take a few tokes.

i'm having to look at a mirror to make sure i'm regulating how big a dose i take. i ate way too much pot once and i never want to do that again. 

i'm now a tincture fan for sure. you can teach an old dog new tricks. 


i'm trying to cut back on smoking/vaping and i just had a great idea. a fire cracker with 1/2 a gram in it, and tincture to give me a bounce once in awhile.
i'm going to give that a go tomorrow. eating one gram gets me perfectly high so 1/2 gram and some drops should be fun.


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## Takashi (Jul 13, 2013)

What is the most common thing people do wrong to ruin batches?


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## Hash Lover (Jul 13, 2013)

Takashi said:


> What is the most common thing people do wrong to ruin batches?


My guess would be rushing it to much.


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## Texas(THC) (Jul 23, 2013)

Takashi said:


> What is the most common thing people do wrong to ruin batches?


In my opinion you ruin the taste of the tincture if you do anything other than the cold extraction
All the other methods strip to much clorophill.


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## Fenter (Jun 23, 2015)

I have been working on developing tinctures and tried a few methods using high proof alcohol (85%) and glycerine, I’ve found the best results from using a mix. My current methodology is as follows:


Using 1g, which provides approx. 5 doses

Decarb at 310F for 20 minutes in sealed container (I use a mason jar)

Add glycerine (10ml), water (10ml) and alcohol (10ml)

Use a slow cooker on the keep warm setting to heat for 15 hours


NB:

I know a lot of people have cooked for far longer, but I have reduced the time to 12-15 hours to account for the fact I am only cooking 1g-3g at a time.

The alcohol I am using is lemon extract.

I am using water to provide the extra Hydrogen bonds needed

I am using a glycerine/Alcohol mix to prevent burning the tongue

Each does takes approx. 45 mins for effects to become apparent, peaking between 90-120 minutes, and subsiding completely around 240 mins (4 hours)


The results have been great, however the time it takes for effects to be felt is about 45 minutes. This would indicate it is being absorbed in the gut, rather than underneath the tongue.


Does anyone have any idea of how to solve this? Ideally I want the quickest absorption time possible, 15 mins is obviously possible but I am struggling to get this! Searched through forums and sites a lot (I’ve been playing with this for over a year now), but happy to look at any links anyone has!


Interested in hearing any other methods, although please provide details (eg weights and any evidence you have), I have tried a lot of different methods including using N02 to force out active components, happy to share if anyone wants advice!


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## GreenStick85 (Jun 24, 2015)

I was looking for the original poster here Hobbes, I just kept seeing the glycerine recipes but not the cold method so I ended up making it with some vodka and some liqueur which is basically like flavoring. I've done all the decarboxylation in the oven and probably was about 1/8th of flower if not more in the mix. Bear in mind I think I used about an ounce or two of the vodka and this has sat in my freezer for quite some time. Maybe 3+ months. The reason I haven't strained it is finding a vial for it. But hopefully it is worth using in a mixed drink.


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## Fenter (Jun 27, 2015)

@GreenStick85 Give it a test and report back?


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## GreenStick85 (Jun 27, 2015)

I'm still looking for one of those medicine vials with the dropper, not sure where to go....


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## Old-School (Jun 27, 2015)

I have a 750ml bottle of green dragon and 1 problem.

I took a lot of bud and trimmings (about 6oz worth), some vaped bud, some leftover goo from other experiments, etc - and soaked it in everclear for about 3.5 months in multiple mason jars. I strained and bottled (750ml).

Problem is that I DID NOT decarb.

Last night I tried a suggested process from this thread - I took about 20ml and added water to it. I did a boil off of that but I am not sure if I boiled off all of the alcohol but there is a mass of black goo at the bottom of the glass. I let it sit all night and just now I poured off all of the liquid and am left with about 1/8 teaspoon of black goo in the bottom of my glass.

Is this what I am looking for?
From my reading it seems that maybe it should not be black but honey colored?
I have been screwing around with tincture for a minute and every time I get it condensed down it is always black in color and has a horrible taste that is more bitter than anything else known to man.

What can I do with the remaining green dragon so that it can be enjoyed as it should be?

Again, the original source was not decarbed.

1) Can the end result be altered in order to decarb or is 3.5 months long enough in 95% alcohol to effectively decarb?
2) Can this black goo be smoked as if it is hash oil?

Any help is appreciated!


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## GreenStick85 (Jun 27, 2015)

Old-School said:


> I have a 750ml bottle of green dragon and 1 problem.
> 
> I took a lot of bud and trimmings (about 6oz worth), some vaped bud, some leftover goo from other experiments, etc - and soaked it in everclear for about 3.5 months in multiple mason jars. I strained and bottled (750ml).
> 
> ...


In order for this to be honey colored, the alcohol and mj should have been frozen then you do a very quick wash and set aside. 
Depending on your amounts, washes should be just enough to soak the buds then drain quick by filter separation. The problem is that soaking the pot mixture you made allowed the chlorophyll to leach out and contribute to this black green color. You also had a mix of everything ranging from vaped buds to trim, which have a direct effect on the taste because you have mixed MJ that has been subject to heat and some that has not. Did your vaped bud smell of popcorn? Was it brown? In all honesty: I couldn't care to salvage vaped buds myself but that is just me. The burnt taste is what 'pollutes' your final product. 

You can keep this however you like but using as a tincture you can mix with liquids. Like a smoothie or the like...
When you tasted it albeit being nasty, did it give you any form of a buzz about an hour or so later??
I dunno what boiling this liquid off did anything positive for you though, decarbing is often done in a dry-set conditions like the oven. You may have boiled off a fair amount of thc.... Do what you wish with it but the idea of having to taste wickedness for the sake of being high is not exactly a cup of tea. Good luck in what you decide on.


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## Fenter (Jun 29, 2015)

Good luck finding one @Greenstick, over here in the UK Ebay has been pretty good for getting atomisers and containers for these experiments!
@Old-School, can never be sure until you actually see the stuff but dark brown, almost burnt looking leaf has never been a problem for me, best bet would be to dry out a bit of the leaf, try smoking it. If it has any effect the active compounds have not been extracted (also it will taste pretty grim, just make sure all the alcohol has evaporated! Also check out this post on the effects of temp on cannabis 

http://www.marijuanagrowershq.com/decarboxylating-cannabis-turning-thca-into-thc/


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## fumble (Jul 1, 2015)

GreenStick85 said:


> I'm still looking for one of those medicine vials with the dropper, not sure where to go....


Any health food/ vitamin shop should have little dropper bottles, as well as amber colored bottles to store tincture in. This is a good place online too:

http://www.sunburstbottle.com/


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## GreenStick85 (Jul 7, 2015)

fumble said:


> Any health food/ vitamin shop should have little dropper bottles, as well as amber colored bottles to store tincture in. This is a good place online too:
> 
> http://www.sunburstbottle.com/


I tried scouring the internet to find a store that may hold these but they normally just hold supplements and not empty bottles. The issue with that sunburst place is that you must buy a whole case of them or many so that isn't my goal unless I were to make lots of tincture. Hope someone else can throw me a bone here cus just going around town for the smallest bottles is just a bit odd if I don't know a certain one.


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## fumble (Jul 8, 2015)

you might try your local thrift store...my daughter finds all kinds of little bottles and things that would be great for tincture.


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## GreenStick85 (Jul 8, 2015)

I just might do that, thank you!


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## fumble (Jul 9, 2015)

Also, I forgot to mention that you might try asking Sunburst for a sample or two. Not sure if they do that, but some places will.


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## GreenStick85 (Jul 9, 2015)

fumble said:


> Also, I forgot to mention that you might try asking Sunburst for a sample or two. Not sure if they do that, but some places will.


I finally finally found a place that had some small bottles. They are a cobalt blue. One is 10 ml and the other I can't find a volume but looks like the amount of a child's cough syrup bottle. 100 ml if I had to guess. The problem is I haven't tested the stuff since I kinda put it together. But what I am surprised with is the clarity. Being in the freezer has made it an awesome way to keep it from getting green. Having looked at the material, looked like about 150 ml went in with about an 1/8th of mmj. Maybe more. This was good grade stuff, decarbed before mixing. I'm unsure if anyone has done a long term soak like this(at least 3 months) but I guess the only way around this is to try it.


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## fumble (Jul 9, 2015)

I have done a long soak like that and it worked great. I didn't put it in the freezer though, just the back of a cabinet. Where I forgot about it lol. Glad you found some bottles...


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## GreenStick85 (Jul 9, 2015)

I admit to taking it out, letting it rest a few times in the beginning then just let it sit frozen. Should be potent. But I'm a bit busy these days to give it a whirl....situationally it's not right for me. But will come soon.


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## barcow (Jul 12, 2015)

Don't know if this was already answered so sorry if i ask again...I boiled alcohol out and im left with a tar then decide to melt that into everclear, If all of the tar didn't melt into it should i add more alcohol?


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## GreenStick85 (Jul 13, 2015)

barcow said:


> Don't know if this was already answered so sorry if i ask again...I boiled alcohol out and im left with a tar then decide to melt that into everclear, If all of the tar didn't melt into it should i add more alcohol?


How long has it set? The longer you keep it in the better but get enough to make it manageable.... The everclear should evap a little bit so try to keep a steady level of it that way you have a balanced alcohol and 'tar' mix.


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## dannydiddi (Dec 6, 2016)

is it possible to do a evective tintcure without decarb before mixing the herbs with the alkohol?
cause i forget the decarbing, now the stuff is mixed -_-


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## GB in NOLA (Apr 12, 2017)

This thread has been a godsend. Husband has brain metastases and last hope is whole plant extract. Anyone tried using a tincture in a nebulizer? BTW, ordered 12 dropper bottles from Amazon for about $9, I think


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## GB in NOLA (Apr 12, 2017)

Hobbes said:


> *Cold Method with Ethanol
> *
> Making tincture cold preserves the integrity of cannabinoids. To be potent, this method requires starting material high in cannabinoid content such as flowers or kief made from trim and leaf. The material must be mold free and dry. Drying can be accomplished in the freezer (-4-10 degrees Celsius) or better yet by placing in a liquid proof bag into a dry ice/ethanol ice bath (-70 degrees Celsius). Once water has been removed then the surface area of the starting material requires expansion. This can be accomplished a number of ways but two ways stand out:
> _Using flowers (bud)_- Place dried buds in a coffee grinder and pulse until thoroughly ground but not powdered.
> ...


How long in the freezer to dry out? Can I use something like Damp rid and put in a giant ziploc bag?


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## GB in NOLA (Apr 15, 2017)

Ok. Using kitchen doses since I have no scale, etc. Say I have 2 Tablespoons of somewhat coarsely ground weed that's been decarbed. How much everclear should I use with these 2 tablespoons to make a significantly concentrated tincture? I've tried to read through all the pages in this post, but haven't seen concise measurements, not to say they aren't here, just didn't see it. Husband has brain metastases and we're in process of moving on to RS oil, but making tincture now since faster and easier. Desperate times...


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## Huckster79 (Apr 22, 2017)

I am planning on doing the heat method but dont have time today to finish, i put the jar on my dryer as i gotta do laundry and put stuff around it so it wont vibrate off. But figure the vibration will be like a long slow shaking up of it.... ill try the long soak time number two but trying to get something faster for a parkinsons sufferer...


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## GB in NOLA (Apr 22, 2017)

Huckster79 said:


> I am planning on doing the heat method but dont have time today to finish, i put the jar on my dryer as i gotta do laundry and put stuff around it so it wont vibrate off. But figure the vibration will be like a long slow shaking up of it.... ill try the long soak time number two but trying to get something faster for a parkinsons sufferer...


Wow! That's actually genius! Wish my dryer wasn't a stackable


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## Huckster79 (Apr 22, 2017)

GB i got an a solution! Tape your jar to your wifes vibrator put some fresh d cells in that baby and leave her for the day.... lol. On serious note, thanks, it was just a random medicated idea, i get a million, most are foolish but once in a while they work out . 

Sure hopin this helps parkinsons like the videos iv seen...


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## GB in NOLA (Apr 25, 2017)

Huckster79 said:


> GB i got an a solution! Tape your jar to your wifes vibrator put some fresh d cells in that baby and leave her for the day.... lol. On serious note, thanks, it was just a random medicated idea, i get a million, most are foolish but once in a while they work out .
> 
> Sure hopin this helps parkinsons like the videos iv seen...


Yeah so. I AM the wife, but all viable suggestions are appreciated. Unfortunately, your suggestion is crass and crude and in no way helpful, i.e. not viable. Not sure why I came to this site for help with a serious issue. No help, no answers, just a bunch of dopers doping


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## budlover13 (Apr 25, 2017)

Huckster79 said:


> I am planning on doing the heat method but dont have time today to finish, i put the jar on my dryer as i gotta do laundry and put stuff around it so it wont vibrate off. But figure the vibration will be like a long slow shaking up of it.... ill try the long soak time number two but trying to get something faster for a parkinsons sufferer...


The long soak on a low temp heat pad works. Well.


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## Huckster79 (Apr 26, 2017)

GB in NOLA said:


> Yeah so. I AM the wife, but all viable suggestions are appreciated. Unfortunately, your suggestion is crass and crude and in no way helpful, i.e. not viable. Not sure why I came to this site for help with a serious issue. No help, no answers, just a bunch of dopers doping


I sincerely apologise for the oversight of your gender and offense. I was just being a smart ass as thats just me...did not intend to offend. 

Im new to the tinticure thing so my advice would be guess only, but most of what iv read is just enough to cover it. Im assuming if you got too dilutted you could always do the heat method for a bit and concentrate it up... but ive made one whole batch so far so im no expert at all.


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## Huckster79 (Apr 26, 2017)

budlover13 said:


> The long soak on a low temp heat pad works. Well.


How long is long on a heating pad? 

First batch pretty mellow but will be a nice grade for wanting just the edge taken off and not having the mind wander... i really enjoyed the floral flavor...


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## budlover13 (Apr 27, 2017)

Huckster79 said:


> How long is long on a heating pad?
> 
> First batch pretty mellow but will be a nice grade for wanting just the edge taken off and not having the mind wander... i really enjoyed the floral flavor...


I let it soak at least 6 weeks before I start using it. I usually just keep the bud in the jar after that and just strain a bottle full as needed.


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## Huckster79 (Apr 27, 2017)

Yea i did it quick this time, im putting one away like you say now so when this mellowvlight duty stuff runs out i will have some aged stuff ready... i know its not gull strenght as i dried the weed that came out of it and can get a low grade buzz off it...


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## SouthCross (May 5, 2017)

Just made a batch of tincture. 18 grams of buds. Decarb at 230°f for 40 minutes. Ground in a coffee grinder. Then 120ml of Everclear in a mason jar. Mixed and shaken for a bit. 

Hot water bath for 20mins. Strained then the plant matter was washed two more times with more alcohol.

Total liquid was 200ml after the washes. I boiled the alcohol back down to 100ml. One dropper bottle filled. The rest stored.


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## Huckster79 (May 5, 2017)

Anyone ever try a magnetic beaker mixer? You know the ones where u put a lil plastic coated magnet in the jar, or by design a beaker, then set it on a special unit that has a magnetic deal in it and it spins the peice in the jar? You could get 24/7 agitation that way! 
Havent tried it just an idea


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## SouthCross (May 6, 2017)

I dosed two people. One got half of the dropper. The other got a full dropper.

The first guy was mellow. The second was blazed.


The green Dragon went back in the water bath and was reduced a further 20ml. So, 18 grams bud reduced down to 2 fluid ounces.


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## Nouna (May 12, 2017)

true said:


> I would just like to say this thread is wonderful! I've been doing research on tinctures too and I would like to add one thing:
> 
> Alcohol tinctures have a longer shelf life and kill mold (for those of you who recycled some infected buds) so keep that in mind if you plan on storing your tincture for a long time.
> 
> ...


Hi, new here...I have 3.5 grams of KIEF, I need to know if I have to DE-Carb my kief? I want to make a tincture, that is soluble in hot or cold beverages ??
easiest way possible, as my hands don't work so well
HELP PLEASE....


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## SouthCross (May 17, 2017)

I'm guessing 20 grams of buds. Two separate strains are in the oven. After its decarbed. It'll be added to the previous batch of Green Dragon. It's been stored in a pint mason jar since. I added more everclear to about a total of 150ml.

The 20 grams bud will be ground in a coffee grinder and the alcohol boiled down to 100ml.

Next crop. Ill add more.


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## SouthCross (May 18, 2017)

And it's strong. Really strong. I reduced it to 150ml instead of 100ml. By volume the powdered weed made up 50ml. 

One full dropper taken in the early evening will leave a buzz the next morning. 1/2 a dropper works.


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## Nouna (May 18, 2017)

SouthCross said:


> And it's strong. Really strong. I reduced it to 150ml instead of 100ml. By volume the powdered weed made up 50ml.
> 
> One full dropper taken in the early evening will leave a buzz the next morning. 1/2 a dropper works.


Great, hit you hard & fast?


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## SouthCross (May 18, 2017)

Nouna said:


> Great, hit you hard & fast?



Holding the tincture in your mouth for 10mins brings it on 5 minutes later. I'd say an all around 20 mins for full effect.


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## Nouna (May 18, 2017)

SouthCross said:


> Holding the tincture in your mouth for 10mins brings it on 5 minutes later. I'd say an all around 20 mins for full effect.



I am going to try my hand at making a tincture?
I need to do the easiest way, my hands are bad. 
I did with oils, vape & edibles.... I need to cut the calories ....better than Norco for me.


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## SouthCross (May 18, 2017)

The everclear burns pretty good. It takes a few doses to get use to it. As for the flavor. I personally like it. It has chocolate overtones. Since I used the coffee grinder, I might have gotten some coffee dust in the mix. If I did the flavor is perfect. Folgers.

The rest of the flavor has an aftertaste like cannabutter. All those small fluffy buds at the bottom of the plants. If it's not worth smoking it go's into the Green Dragon. Ill keep adding to the batch.


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## Nouna (May 18, 2017)

SouthCross said:


> The everclear burns pretty good. It takes a few doses to get use to it. As for the flavor. I personally like it. It has chocolate overtones. Since I used the coffee grinder, I might have gotten some coffee dust in the mix. If I did the flavor is perfect. Folgers.
> 
> The rest of the flavor has an aftertaste like cannabutter. All those small fluffy buds at the bottom of the plants. If it's not worth smoking it go's into the Green Dragon. Ill keep adding to the batch.





SouthCross said:


> The everclear burns pretty good. It takes a few doses to get use to it. As for the flavor. I personally like it. It has chocolate overtones. Since I used the coffee grinder, I might have gotten some coffee dust in the mix. If I did the flavor is perfect. Folgers.
> 
> The rest of the flavor has an aftertaste like cannabutter. All those small fluffy buds at the bottom of the plants. If it's not worth smoking it go's into the Green Dragon. Ill keep adding to the batch.



I guess I have some studying to do.
I have Kief on hand, I do have liquid flavors(for )

Could I do something with the kief?


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## greg nr (May 18, 2017)

I saw a guy on a youtube vid recently who put the tincture out in the sun for a few hours and all the green left it. He was left with an amber liquor.

Does that work to eliminate the chlorophyl taste or does it just kill the green color?

Also, does it effect any of the active ingredients?


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## Nouna (May 18, 2017)




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## SouthCross (May 21, 2017)

greg nr said:


> I saw a guy on a youtube vid recently who put the tincture out in the sun for a few hours and all the green left it. He was left with an amber liquor.
> 
> Does that work to eliminate the chlorophyl taste or does it just kill the green color?
> 
> Also, does it effect any of the active ingredients?



Light breaks it down. That's why it's stored in the dark. The dropper bottle is either brown or blue. Never clear.


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## SouthCross (May 21, 2017)

People keep trying to make Green Dragon better. If you melt enough weed in it. I can personally testify, it'll fu¢k you up. Not in a big blunt or brownie way.

Oh no

It'll hit you in 30 minutes and put your ass on the couch. Sneaks up and your legs are rubber. Green Dragon is no joke. Why the hell someone would leave it the sun is beyond me...


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## Nouna (May 28, 2017)

GreenStick85 said:


> I'm still looking for one of those medicine vials with the dropper, not sure where to go....


Micheals Craft store has them


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## Roger A. Shrubber (May 30, 2017)

i just bought a box of 25 off of ebay for 17.99


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## Nouna (May 31, 2017)

I found them at 
THE VITAMIN SHOPPE


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## SouthCross (Aug 15, 2017)

Next up. Using Jack Daniels. I can't reduce it or it'll boil off lots of alcohol leaving a bunch of watered down mix. I can wait. I'll buy a 750ml, black label, bottle of Jack Daniels. Pour a bit off into a flask. Add about an ounce of ground, decarbed popcorn bud. Then aged for about three months.


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## AKTripp (Sep 15, 2017)

Ok so maybe someone else has had this problem. 
I was giving my tincture a water bath and once it cooled down I went to take the jar out only to hear the horrible sound of the glass separating perfectly on the bottom followed by a gush, losing all my mixture in the water. I think there was at least 4 cups of water in the pan and for my tincture I was using a quart mason jar filled with everclear. 
It looks very well mixed. A nice cloudy green color. The solids are at the bottom. My question is what are my options?
I was originally going to make this into gummies. Can I still it for that and just filter out the solids? Is the taste going to be unbearable?
What if I just turn it into a tea?
Is the boil the liquid off the best option?
Should I at those point just add some butter or coconut oil? What will the alcohol in it do? Will it still be just as strong as the normal process of making cannabutter?
Any and all advice is much appreciated. I am hoping to fix this problem today.


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## greg nr (Sep 15, 2017)

AKTripp said:


> Ok so maybe someone else has had this problem.
> I was giving my tincture a water bath and once it cooled down I went to take the jar out only to hear the horrible sound of the glass separating perfectly on the bottom followed by a gush, losing all my mixture in the water. I think there was at least 4 cups of water in the pan and for my tincture I was using a quart mason jar filled with everclear.
> It looks very well mixed. A nice cloudy green color. The solids are at the bottom. My question is what are my options?
> I was originally going to make this into gummies. Can I still it for that and just filter out the solids? Is the taste going to be unbearable?
> ...


well... your thc is dissolved in the ethanol, which is dissolved in water. Your best bet is to add butter and heat it up again. That will drive off the ethanol and the thc should be absorbed into the butter (it doesn't like water). When you cool the mix, the butter will be seperate from the water and all the thc will be in the butter.

If you just drive off the ethanol, the THC should precipitate out into the water, but I'm not sure how you could collect it. It would be an oily mess.


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## PsychedelicSam (Sep 16, 2017)

greg nr said:


> well... your thc is dissolved in the ethanol, which is dissolved in water. Your best bet is to add butter and heat it up again. That will drive off the ethanol and the thc should be absorbed into the butter (it doesn't like water). When you cool the mix, the butter will be seperate from the water and all the thc will be in the butter.
> 
> If you just drive off the ethanol, the THC should precipitate out into the water, but I'm not sure how you could collect it. It would be an oily mess.


This is similar to reducing a 151 tincture as opposed to 190 proof because of the excess water. If you want to continue with an alcohol tincture then you would heat your mixed solution to evaporate off the alcohol. It will soon separate into your dark cannabis oil and water. The cannabis oil will continue to precipitate out and form a dark layer of oil on the bottom. Continue to heat it until all the water/liquid has evaporated and you're left with a gooey oil on the bottom. That is your cannabis oil. At that point you can add some fresh alcohol to it for the potency you want. Of course, you'll have a few extra minerals in it from all that water but it will work well.

The coconut oil/butter idea will work, too.


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## AKTripp (Sep 16, 2017)

Thanks Greg nr and Psychedelicsam for the input. I ended up just turning it into butter. I was bummed to have had to waste all that alcohol but at least it saved the weed. 
I also took some of the liquid before turning it into butter and just made my gummies with that and it still seemed to work but was definitely not as strong as it could have been.


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## STIGGY (Sep 23, 2018)

So Sam do you ever still Post here on RIU?


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## rsneha (Aug 26, 2020)

Hobbes said:


> This link might be helpful.
> Metric Conversion: http://www.worldwidemetric.com/metcal.htm
> 
> 
> ...


Also check this site : https://www.easyunitconverter.com/


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## Hobbes (Aug 26, 2020)

.

Here's a video demonstrating Sam's most excellent alcohol tincture reducing method.

.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="



" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

.


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## PsychedelicSam (Nov 6, 2020)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> Here's a video demonstrating Sam's most excellent alcohol tincture reducing method.
> 
> ...


*That one was deleted by YouTube but here's the newer one. 





*


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## petert (Nov 11, 2020)

Hobbes said:


> I found good recepies for three methods: Hot Extraction, the quickest extraction of cannaboids (20 minutes); suprisingly the Cold Extraction next (2-3 days); and the Warm Extraction longest (30-60 days).
> 
> --
> 
> ...


I use the cold method (Golden Dragon) But like every There is a variation of this that I use. 
I first decarb my weed, I don’t grind it in a grinder of any sort, I just hand crumble! I then place the weed in a large sealable jar and place in the freezer over night. I also place a bottle of Everclear in the freezer over night. 
In the AM I pour my bottle of Everclear into the jar of frozen decarbed weed and shake the holy hell out of it for 5 minutes. 
Then I place the jar back in the freezer for 2-3 hours and repeat. 
You want to keep the water soluble material (Chlorophyll) green matter frozen so it’s not extracted along with the good golden stuff!
You can repeat set two shaking and return to freezer. But I’ve found it’s not really necessary to do the shaking process more than 3 times total. 
I then strain the liquid using my Magical Butter Maker strainer. ( You can use cheese cloth too)
You are finished here if you want to be! If you want to concentrate this tincture you can put it in a crock pot, or over a low heat on the stove, just be super careful cause Everclear is highly flammable and remember to stir frequently, alcohol has a low boiling point and will reduce and evaporate fairly quickly. When I reduce I reduce by no more than 50% . 
2-3 drops in a stout or IPA and you’ve got yourself a really enjoyable afternoon.


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## StanleyMan (May 11, 2022)

Very informatic thread, thanks!
My question on professionals...
I have made 12 gramms of skaff from indor trim from BubleGum, after this I have dissolved this in alko let inside 3 days, after filtered alko, than evaporate alko in the oven on 70-80 Celsium, after made a decarboxilation in a same oven on 110 Celsium. After this I dissolved my decarboxilated amber in 80 mililiters of Glycerine (heated it). Today is a third day inside Glycerine, I shaking it every day... the tincture is workable but not a homogeneous before I shake it...
My question is - shall I wait also 60 days and shake it every day, like in a case with weed, to get a ready tincture? Or I can filter this solution even now..? Thanks
sorry for my english, I am not a native speaker


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## LeastExpectedGrower (May 11, 2022)

StanleyMan said:


> Very informatic thread, thanks!
> My question on professionals...
> I have made 12 gramms of skaff from indor trim from BubleGum, after this I have dissolved this in alko let inside 3 days, after filtered alko, than evaporate alko in the oven on 70-80 Celsium, after made a decarboxilation in a same oven on 110 Celsium. After this I dissolved my decarboxilated amber in 80 mililiters of Glycerine (heated it). Today is a third day inside Glycerine, I shaking it every day... the tincture is workable but not a homogeneous before I shake it...
> My question is - shall I wait also 60 days and shake it every day, like in a case with weed, to get a ready tincture? Or I can filter this solution even now..? Thanks
> sorry for my english, I am not a native speaker


I would suggest some refinements to your process. 

I would:

-decarb before the alcohol bath. 

-Evaporate off all the alcohol (Be careful! This can be dangerous if there's open flame...I do mine across weeks and let it just naturally evaporate). 

- Once you're left with the final FECO (Full-spectrum Extract Cannabis Oil), which really will look like a sticky oily substance, THEN add your glycerine. Shake across a day or two and you should get a homogenous liquid.


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## StanleyMan (May 11, 2022)

LeastExpectedGrower said:


> -decarb before the alcohol bath.


Thanks for reply.
For a future sounds: is it enougth to put skuff in a powder form in the oven on 110 Celsius for 10-15 min? Or better use another way?



LeastExpectedGrower said:


> Shake across a day or two and you should get a homogenous liquid.


And than, in your opinion, should I filter the final glycerine liquid or let it be like it is to avoid missing of THC and every time shake before use?


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## StanleyMan (May 14, 2022)

StanleyMan said:


> should I filter the final glycerine liquid or let it be like it is to avoid missing of THC and every time shake before use?


somebody could tell me, should I filter the final glycerine liquid or let it be like it is to avoid missing of THC and every time shake before use? Now is arround one week and on a surface of glycerine I see some shit... is this shit is good for me or I should use the rest of glycerine without this shit..? Thanks in advance )


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## Hobbes (May 14, 2022)

.

Got any pics Stan?

I switched from Alcohol and glycerine to Coconut oil and a Magical Butter Machine. Great for canna coco drops.

.


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## oldsilvertip55 (May 15, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> I found good recepies for three methods: Hot Extraction, the quickest extraction of cannaboids (20 minutes); suprisingly the Cold Extraction next (2-3 days); and the Warm Extraction longest (30-60 days).
> 
> --
> 
> ...


this i must [email protected] Wu


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## StanleyMan (May 15, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> Got any pics Stan?
> 
> I switched from Alcohol and glycerine to Coconut oil and a Magical Butter Machine. Great for canna coco drops.


Here are some pics, but I am not sure about pics quality...
when its at room temperature - it is not homogeneous, but if I heat it in a warm water to arround 80 Celsius its become homogeneous.
I have tried glycerine without this stuf on a surface - and its less potent, than heated homogeneous glicerine solution...
So, I heated this again and fill a small syringes 2 ml for one dose (for one day).
Imho the best way for me for a moment.
So, I have made arround 30 daily doses from 12 gramm of skuff... I use it in the morning before a breafast and its working the hole day, what is great!
I am more than 30 years smoker, last 20 years only indoor, but last 2 years only Volcano vapor - done daily approx 1 - 1,5 gramm weed every day in two times and with 2 ml of this tincture I feel a same from morning to everning on a same wave ))
Peace for all!


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## LeastExpectedGrower (May 17, 2022)

StanleyMan said:


> Thanks for reply.
> For a future sounds: is it enougth to put skuff in a powder form in the oven on 110 Celsius for 10-15 min? Or better use another way?
> 
> And than, in your opinion, should I filter the final glycerine liquid or let it be like it is to avoid missing of THC and every time shake before use?


Sorry for my delay...

I don't think that 110c for 10-15 minutes is enough to decarb. I think you're looking at something more like 116c-121c for something like 45 minutes to an hour.

If you're extracting THC to alcohol, the less you break up the material, the less 'green' it will be. I do my best to decarb material as whole as possible. I filter the alcohol through one of those fine metal coffee filters (the kind that replace the paper cone filters in coffee machines). to get all the solids out.


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## LeastExpectedGrower (May 17, 2022)

StanleyMan said:


> Here are some pics, but I am not sure about pics quality...
> when its at room temperature - it is not homogeneous, but if I heat it in a warm water to arround 80 Celsius its become homogeneous.
> I have tried glycerine without this stuf on a surface - and its less potent, than heated homogeneous glicerine solution...
> So, I heated this again and fill a small syringes 2 ml for one dose (for one day).
> ...


It sounds like the 'separation' is solids from the cannabis? By pulverizing the material you're getting lots of particulate matter. Alcohol strips out the THC from the Trichomes pretty effectively so having it ground down I don't think is netting you much besides more chlorophyll and small particles. 

Here's what my 'golden dragon' looked like after I'd:
-Decarbed
-Frozen the decarbed flower (whole not broken down)
-Soaked in alcohol at -20C for 3 days:







Keeping the cannbis frozen 'locks' the chlorophyll in the plant material so you get less in your alcohol. 

That evaporates down and is still dark and gunky but once the alcohol is gone there really is only a 'skim' in the jar not a measurable amount...from there add the glycerin and I think it should stay in solution at room temps.


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## shredder4 (May 17, 2022)

I make a fair amount of this stuff and i found little difference between a 10 minute cold (200 proof ethanol) soak over a multiple day soak in the freezer. I filter with a paper coffee filter.

@StanleyMan why are you using gylcerine? Its water based and doesnt mix well with cannabis oil. There are probably better options depending on how you consuming it.

Infusing sugar, honey, mct or other oils, and butter come to mind and cover a lot of edibles.


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## StanleyMan (May 17, 2022)

*LeastExpectedGrower*
Thanks for reply, unfortunetly I can't give to nobody finger up as a new user I think ))
Imho in my case this solid pieces are not axactly a chlorofyl, because I've made it from the first skuff from a trim, *not from the flowers*... and yes, the alcohol liquid was a same like in your jar.

*shredder4*
It was my first experience wich Glycerine, in past I use to make only an Alko Iiquid. Now I understand that Glycerine is not a my song, but now I've got this stuff and have to use it as well ))

With greetings from Czech republic


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## FirstCavApache64 (May 17, 2022)

All this talk of tincture got me motivated. I made four different strains using Everclear and a 7 day soak. I don't mind the strong taste and I like to extract all the THC possible even if I end up with some chlorophyll. I decarbed at 240 for 40 minutes after breaking the buds up with my fingers to bong hit size. I do freeze my booze and plant matter before my soak and first shake and then for several hours after. Just the way I was taught and it seems to work for me. One jar went 12 days as life intervened before I could filter it and get it jarred up. That stuff is green dragon pure and simple, no gold or Amber to it. My other batches are usually Amber to light green. I'll evaporate some of the alcohol off to adjust the dosage to where I want and it's good to go. The Nurple strain tincture has been really good so far as has Bum Wine which was an auto flower I grew awhile back. It's really a good strain for nausea and anti anxiety. The purple pheno of Nurple was really good for my wife's medical needs. I can't wait for my Bubba Kush clone to finish up since the tincture from that is going to be really good I'm hoping. It's getting really frosty and bubba is good pain medicine.


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## LeastExpectedGrower (May 18, 2022)

FirstCavApache64 said:


> All this talk of tincture got me motivated. I made four different strains using Everclear and a 7 day soak. I don't mind the strong taste and I like to extract all the THC possible even if I end up with some chlorophyll. I decarbed at 240 for 40 minutes after breaking the buds up with my fingers to bong hit size. I do freeze my booze and plant matter before my soak and first shake and then for several hours after. Just the way I was taught and it seems to work for me. One jar went 12 days as life intervened before I could filter it and get it jarred up. That stuff is green dragon pure and simple, no gold or Amber to it. My other batches are usually Amber to light green. I'll evaporate some of the alcohol off to adjust the dosage to where I want and it's good to go. The Nurple strain tincture has been really good so far as has Bum Wine which was an auto flower I grew awhile back. It's really a good strain for nausea and anti anxiety. The purple pheno of Nurple was really good for my wife's medical needs. I can't wait for my Bubba Kush clone to finish up since the tincture from that is going to be really good I'm hoping. It's getting really frosty and bubba is good pain medicine.View attachment 5135062View attachment 5135063View attachment 5135064


I've found a place locally that carries Polish 196 proof vodka, so that's what I'm using.

The last few rounds I've done, I've evaporated down all the way (multiple 8oz Ball jars), then once it's totally down to sticky residue I've added a measured amount of alcohol back to re-hydrate it enough to pour...then I pour it all into a 6oz brown glass bottle I have...and since I know that I used 1tbs of alcohol each bottle to rehydrate, I can calculate strength based on per-tablespoon use. In my case, I've been adding it to chocolate then pouring it into bars, so I know one little cube or two little cubes, etc. is what I want per serving. I've found that half a cube of chocolate before bed doesn't make me high, but I certainly have no trouble sleeping!

I think this weekend though I'll play around and make another batch of butter and make some treats or brownies.


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## FirstCavApache64 (May 18, 2022)

LeastExpectedGrower said:


> I've found a place locally that carries Polish 196 proof vodka, so that's what I'm using.
> 
> The last few rounds I've done, I've evaporated down all the way (multiple 8oz Ball jars), then once it's totally down to sticky residue I've added a measured amount of alcohol back to re-hydrate it enough to pour...then I pour it all into a 6oz brown glass bottle I have...and since I know that I used 1tbs of alcohol each bottle to rehydrate, I can calculate strength based on per-tablespoon use. In my case, I've been adding it to chocolate then pouring it into bars, so I know one little cube or two little cubes, etc. is what I want per serving. I've found that half a cube of chocolate before bed doesn't make me high, but I certainly have no trouble sleeping!
> 
> I think this weekend though I'll play around and make another batch of butter and make some treats or brownies.


That sounds like a great idea. I evaporate down based on my trial dose. I find that most initial batches take about 25-35 drops to medicate me fully. I'm a pretty big guy, 6'4", 275 lbs so my dosage is a good bit higher than my 5'5, 130 lb wife. I usually cut the volume down by half for her batch and by 1/4 for mine so I'm taking roughly 6-8 drops and she's taking about the same maybe a couple more since hers is a little weaker. I accidentally let one of mine evaporate all the way down to the sticky tar like you are talking about and had no idea what to do with it. I was wondering if at that point it was able to be smoked as a dab. Do you know if it's able to be? I just waited to make my next batch and kept it covered to prevent dust and added in my next tincture to it. It left little balls of dark colored crap in the mix but damn it was obviously potent.


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## LeastExpectedGrower (May 18, 2022)

FirstCavApache64 said:


> That sounds like a great idea. I evaporate down based on my trial dose. I find that most initial batches take about 25-35 drops to medicate me fully. I'm a pretty big guy, 6'4", 275 lbs so my dosage is a good bit higher than my 5'5, 130 lb wife. I usually cut the volume down by half for her batch and by 1/4 for mine so I'm taking roughly 6-8 drops and she's taking about the same maybe a couple more since hers is a little weaker. I accidentally let one of mine evaporate all the way down to the sticky tar like you are talking about and had no idea what to do with it. I was wondering if at that point it was able to be smoked as a dab. Do you know if it's able to be? I just waited to make my next batch and kept it covered to prevent dust and added in my next tincture to it. It left little balls of dark colored crap in the mix but damn it was obviously potent.


I haven't tried to do anything but edibles with it...I don't combust anything these days, but do have a small Pax as well as eating things. 

If you 'rehydrate' it with alcohol you shouldn't get those 'little balls' I only see those if there's any amount of water in the fluid since the THC oil won't mix with water. If I haven't dried the cannabis enough before decarb, its possible to get the water out of the plant when you're doing your alcohol washes, and then you'll see that separation once the alcohol has evaporated but the water hasn't. If I see that, I let the jar sit and let the water evaporate off all the way. My method for that is to use a ball jar, but skip the metal lid... use a piece of paper coffee filter over the top and then screw the 'ring' over it and onto the jar. keeps out everything but lets everything out-gas. 

One of the nice things about combining batches...is that you can really standardize the strength across your use. So if you have a jar that's stronger than the others or vice versa, once you combine, they all even out when you use them.


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## whelk (May 18, 2022)

I just put the weed and the alcohol in freezer separately overnight then in the morning combine the 2 and shake for few mins.. Put back in freezer for another 24 hrs shaking a few more times.. Then I strain out the weed and put tincture in an open bowl for few days to evaporate as much of the alcohol as possible


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## shredder4 (May 18, 2022)

The advantage of of a quick soak is how much plant wax is in the tincture. 190-200 proof alcohol will strip the canna oil quickly. And the longer soaks get more plant wax. Same deal with frozen weed and alcohol , less plant wax transferred to the tincture in freezing temps, than if you did it at room temperatures. And with less wax, it's a little stronger and tastes better.

Not a big deal when you're making most edibles I guess, but it's worth mentioning. But if it isn't a big deal then freezing everything might not be worth it either, since alcohol will strip oil better when warmer.

If chlorophyl is causing green tinctures, direct sunlight will take care of that green and turn it more amber and it happens in hours not days.

And while making oil with a solvent can remove terpenes, but you can add back terpenes with food grade terpenes or an essential oil with terpenes like sweet orange oil, black pepper oil, lavender oil and so on.


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## iggy097 (Aug 13, 2022)

Anyone watching this thread able to help with dosage numbers on tincture? Like if I have the potency of the (CBD) in this case - how much it will end up being per dosage?


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## LeastExpectedGrower (Aug 13, 2022)

iggy097 said:


> Anyone watching this thread able to help with dosage numbers on tincture? Like if I have the potency of the (CBD) in this case - how much it will end up being per dosage?


Some guys may have a better handle on this, but you can sort of back into the numbers...When I evaporate down to oil I end up with ~14% based on weight or so (depending on the batch), from there it's something like 80-85% THC. So if you're leaving it in alcohol solution, your batch would still be 14% x .80 or 14% x .85 or whatever percent you're getting for your output.


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## shredder4 (Aug 14, 2022)

iggy097 said:


> Anyone watching this thread able to help with dosage numbers on tincture? Like if I have the potency of the (CBD) in this case - how much it will end up being per dosage?


You find your total cbd available like @LeastExpectedGrower said. Then divide that by the doses. 

For 16% cbd that starts as 160mg per gram of cbd before filtering. You lose some when filtering out plant material. 

For strong infusions ( I prefer infusions of oil over alcohol tinctures) I count drops for accurate doses. So find out how many drops in your tincture, or ml works for less strong tinctures, then find out how many ml in a eyedropper for example. Google makes this easy. 

To make your tincture stronger, just evaporate some off the alcohol.


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