# Maximum Yield



## riddleme (Apr 2, 2010)

This is my first thread in the Advanced section, I have spent most of my time here at RIU trying to lead new growers in the right direction. So I spend more time in the noob forum answering questions. But I do come here and read threads and find it very enlightning and enjoyable, a nice break from the constantly repeated questions elsewhere.

In preparation for my next grow (next set of experiments) I have been doing some research, a few things I am looking at is silica, and far infared light/heat, a very different way of topping as well as a few other things. In my travels to pursue this research I came across a new website that has info that blew me away (I'll share the link at the end) I am going to quote some of the info articles here so you can read em (but also in case the website fails) These articles emphasize the things that growers like myself and Uncle Ben have been spreading to the new growers here at RIU but also take that info in a very new direction. They are not MJ specific but as you read them you will see that it readily applies (as if they are talking about MJ without saying so)

This is going to be a lot of reading but in the end I think you all will agree that it is worth the time, here is the first article,,,,,,,,,,,

*Nutrient Ratios for Modern Crops by Erik Biksa* 

Who has determined what the N-P-K values and ratios are that you feed your prized crop through the vegetative and bloom phases of growth? What about other important macro elements such as calcium and magnesium, and the complex relationships that trace elements such as boron, iron, zinc and manganese have with the other nutrient ions that influence the health and development of plants? There are 13 elements that are considered vital to plant growth, with many others showing to be beneficial. This gives a lot of possibilities in terms of the potential ratios and concentrations that these elements may have in a crop feeding nutrient solution; for example think, of the possible number of combinations you could have rolling 13 dice all at once.As indoor growers we are applying too much phosphorous because the recommendations for applications and formulations have been based on outdoor field agriculture practices.
So, now back to the question: &#8220;Who has determined the nutrient values and ratios in your crop feeding program?&#8221; All right, well most folks are likely to say &#8220;the manufacturer.&#8221; Okay, so the manufacturer determined the nutrient ratios. That beckons the question of how they were able to determine what concentrations and ratios of plant nutrient elements to provide for your particular crop and at what times in the vegetative and bloom phases of growth. Well from there you can only guess, unless you have information that says otherwise.
Chances are that the nutrient solution was formulated based on previous research that was performed on the nutrient requirements of various crops. Obviously, any reputable nutrient manufacturer will have also tested their formulation and will make adjustments, as required. There are hydroponic crop feeding solutions that were formulated in 1865, although Hoagland appears to have created the first &#8220;complete&#8221; nutrient solution in the 1930s. Since then, modern scientists and horticulturalists have learned much about plants and their nutrient requirements. One of the key points of knowledge is that different types of plants use nutrients in different quantities and ratios; creating preferred nutrient profiles for various types of plants. On top of that, the same type of plants will use nutrients differently when grown using different cultural practices or when grown in different climatic conditions. For example, outdoor field crops in natural settings that take six months to reach maturity versus indoor crops grown in artificial environments that will require only three months to reach maturity are hardly playing on the same ball field.

What does this all mean, and where is this article going with it? Well, to put it bluntly, there are a surprising number of nutrient formulations that are simply &#8220;wrong&#8221; for modern indoor growing, and here&#8217;s why:

The formulation(s) has been based on un-applicable or less relevant research information. The data gathered growing field crops using conventional methods tells us something, however, it cannot be accurately used to create optimal nutrient ratios for the unique requirements of modern crops grown indoors.
For optimal results, crop formulas need to be created specifically for the type of crop being grown and the types of conditions it is being grown under; what&#8217;s optimal for one type of plant will not be optimal for another. One size does not fit all. However, nutrient components may be tailored by savvy growers to create the optimal profile for their particular plant type; provided that the grower knows what those ratios are.
The optimal nutrient ratios change slightly through different crop developmental phases such as in the seedling/cutting phase versus the vegetative growth phase versus the bloom phase. It&#8217;s important to know what these changes are and to have them reflected in the crop feeding schedule.
In the end, most growers are putting a lot of trust in the manufacturer of their chosen nutrients. This is all well and good, as your success as a grower will be their success as a manufacturer. However, have you really stopped to think and ask: what exactly do they know, and where have they gotten their information from? Sure, if the plant is supplied the 13 major essential elements it requires it will live and grow. If the ratios of these elements are supplied at the correct times and mirror the plants demand for those nutrients and in those ratios, the plants can grow at optimal levels. It&#8217;s possible that many of us who have harvested very healthy and seemingly large yielding indoor crops were not in fact harvesting the optimal crop, leaving much more room for improvement than we may have realized. Just to back this point up a bit, consider 10 years ago that the majority of indoor growers were yielding ½ of what they can yield today, in the same space, using the same amount of electricity. Yes, of course there are exceptions, although that does appear to be the rule of thumb.
So, why the improvement? There are several reasons, including plant genetics. However, a large part of this increase can be attributed to nutrient formulations and grow gear that have started to evolve to specifically address artificial and intensive modern growing environments and the types of plants that people like to grow in them. This article is here to state that there is still much more to be done in the way of research and improvements in nutrient formulations that are intended for intensive artificial growing environments and the new breed of plants being grown in them. Products that have been developed through research on modern indoor crops are now available to indoor growers, while some growers continue to use out-dated technologies to achieve moderate harvests.
Now that&#8217;s a bold statement. Well, here&#8217;s a little dose of proof:
Ask an experienced grower what the most important crop element is in the bloom phase, and the vast majority of the time you will hear phosphorous, which is the &#8220;P&#8221; in &#8220;N-P-K&#8221;. Yes, phosphorous is important, now asking the grower a follow-up question along the lines of &#8220;why is that the most important element?&#8221; Chances are you will hear, &#8220;because it&#8217;s used the most in the bloom phase.&#8221;
Wrong. Due to archaic field crop research crossed over into nutrient formulations intended for modern high producing indoor crops, there are some really huge misconceptions about what is optimal for nutrient ratios in the bloom phase for indoor crops grown in artificial environments. The simplest way to illustrate this fact is to look at one of the most popular types of products in the hydroponics industry, and that&#8217;s the &#8220;bloom booster.&#8221;

The majority of bloom boosters contain very high levels of phosphorous and moderate to lower amounts of potassium. They may also contain other macro and micro elements including magnesium, sulfur and iron. Growers begin to apply these types of products through the early bloom phase and late into flowering prior to &#8220;flushing&#8221; the crop before harvest. There seems to be a general consensus that the modern indoor containerized (or &#8220;systemized,&#8221; if you prefer) plant in the bloom phase needs abundant amounts of phosphorous relative to other nutrients. Well the truth is that they do not, because:
Phosphorous is highly available to containerized or systemized plants grown indoors relative to outdoor conditions where it is quickly leeched away from the root zone via mass flow.
When examining analytical reports charting the nutrient profile of a high yielding indoor crop at harvest (plant tissue analysis) it becomes clear that even in a variety of strains within the same plant type, that the plant requires nearly five times more each nitrogen and potassium relative to phosphorous.
For example, if the plants elemental profile at harvest time was analyzed to reveal that healthy yields consisted primarily of nitrogen, potassium and calcium relative to phosphorous, why then are growers applying so much phosphorous (relative to other nutrient elements) in the bloom phase, and more importantly, what effect is this over abundance of phosphorous having on crops?
To answer the first part of the question, as indoor growers we are applying too much phosphorous because the recommendations for applications and formulations have been based on outdoor field agriculture practices, which simply don&#8217;t apply directly to indoor gardens. In nature the soil is very deep, and roots do not occupy the entire body of soil as they do in containers, beds or systems found with indoor gardens. Phosphorous leeches from the root zone in natural soils quickly, washing away from the contact zone with plant roots, as it drains with water further into the depths of the earth. To ensure a healthy supply of phosphorous, outdoor conventional field agricultural growers do a sort of &#8220;over-application&#8221; of phosphorous, because it has been determined that much of it will be quickly leeched away from the plant roots; what remains at any given time can be taken up by the crop. From this, we can learn that excessive &#8220;P&#8221; values in our N-P-Ks are not necessary for indoor growers, where phosphorous maintains a high level of contact within the root zone of plants grown in artificial soils and in containers, beds and systems commonly found with intensive indoor growing environments.
Now what affects can excessive phosphorous levels have on crops? Firstly, excessive levels of phosphorous can create nutrient imbalances in the root zone, and consequently inside the plant. This creates a form of stress in the plant which can diminish yield potential and increase the plant&#8217;s susceptibility to problems such as insects and diseases. Conversely, it can also be said that a slight stress induction from excess phosphorous may have some benefits in the late bloom/ripening phase as the plants reach maturity. However, creating this stress from early in the bloom phase and continuing it throughout will not create the correct nutrient profile for optimal harvest potential. This is not to say that growers should not supply phosphorous throughout the bloom phase, although it is to say that grower&#8217;s crops will yield larger harvests if phosphorus is supplied in the correct and balanced ratios with other nutrients, as determined through careful tissue analysis of indoor crops versus conventional field agricultural data.
In simple terms, based on the macro and micro nutrient profile analysis of a healthy, high yielding indoor crop (plant tissue analysis) growers have some options with how best to address the nutritional requirements of their favorite crop to get bigger yields than they have ever been able to achieve before.
Firstly, don&#8217;t apply bloom boosters with high phosphorous to potassium ratios continually through the bloom phase. For the first week of flowering to help trigger the natural plant stresses that amplify the plant&#8217;s flowering process, it&#8217;s okay to give the crop a dose of bloom boosters that have higher P to K ratios in the NPK values stated on the label. Usually, these types of bloom boosters that are formulated for indoor crops at the onset of flowering will also have other components in the formulation that help to control vertical growth; stacking internodes and flowering sites tighter together for each foot of vertical growth to give maximum yields.
After the first week of flowering where a &#8220;trigger&#8221; bloom booster maybe used to help ignite the bloom phase, you may begin to apply a balanced P:K bloom booster in conjunction with a balanced base nutrient program. If you have gleamed anything from this article, you will be wondering what the appropriate P:K ratio would be for indoor flowering crops, and current research has been demonstrating that a 1:2 ratio seems to work best, the polar opposite of some of the bloom boosters currently being used by indoor growers. To build the biggest and heaviest flowers and fruits, bloom boosters should supply more than just the correct P:K ratios. Additions of L-amino acids and other forms of reduced nitrogen will further amplify and enhance the plant&#8217;s natural reproductive response, leading to bigger and heavier harvests of higher quality. Magnesium and sulfur are also very important components in the bloom process of most indoor crops.
In the late flowering phase, when the plant is ripening, and in some instances producing elevated levels of essential oils, a slight &#8220;spike&#8221; in phosphorous levels will induce a level of stress that can help to enhance crop quality. For example, this is when a 2:1 P:K ratio may be appropriate. Note that at this time, the plant is not developing structurally anymore. All crops should be sufficiently flushed of excess nutrients, beginning at least one week before the anticipated date of harvest. This is accomplished by applying a leeching agent to the growing medium or system and then running straight water possibly with digestive enzymes and/or humates for the final days before harvest.
Three part base nutrient systems have been widely used and accepted through the indoor gardening community, and have been delivering great results for years. Based on modern research conducted on indoor grown high yielding crops, it was determined that using the three part nutrient system actually produced better results when being applied in a 1:1:1 ratio versus the common 3:2:1 ratio, especially when bloom boosters intended for indoor crops were used in conjunction with the three part nutrient system. 2:1 ratios of three part base nutrients were the least effective of all (where the &#8220;grow&#8221; component was omitted entirely through the bloom phase).
Upon analyzing the nutrient levels and ratios achieved in the nutrient solution for feeding indoor crops in the bloom phase, applying the base nutrients in a 1:1:1 ratio using popular three part nutrient components, the level and ratios much more closely resembled those of the internal nutrient levels and ratios of the plant being grown versus using the three part nutrient components in the common 3:2:1 method.
After all is said and done, there is only really one way to find out what is going to give you the biggest and best quality harvests, and that&#8217;s to experiment a little. If anything, it&#8217;s the hope of this article that you will begin to question where the nutrient values you are using having been derived from, and if they are in fact correct for your modern indoor crop. You just may find that by tinkering with the products you are already using or better yet, by adopting more modern formulations, that you are able to surpass even your largest yield expectations. So, if in the last decade we have been able to nearly double yields through research and experimentation on indoor crops, just imagine the types of harvest we may have in another 10 years. This advancement cannot continue, however, without growers who are willing to push the limits and boundaries of what is held as the &#8220;common truth&#8221; of the times, because more often than not, it won&#8217;t remain &#8220;the truth&#8221; forever.


Here is the second article,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

*Yield of Dreams: An Optimal External Environment for Accelerated Crop Growth by Erik Biksa* 

*Understanding what exactly makes your favorite plants tick will give you the insight you need to supercharge the natural process for faster growth and bigger yields.*

Nature has created the perfect internal and inherent growing system within plants. Some growers using advanced crop feeding programs may already be accelerating plant growth, while not fully understanding the process that is working to their benefit. It is the intention of this article to shine some light on how the photosynthetic process(es) work and how they relate to modern indoor growing, practices that include artificial lighting, elevated carbon dioxide levels and intensive crop feedings.
Plants are considered to be &#8220;autotrophic,&#8221; basically meaning that they create their own food. They do this through photosynthesis, which translated means &#8220;to put together with light.&#8221; There are three foundations to photosynthesis:
1. Photosynthetic activity &#8211; the capturing of light energy to combine carbon dioxide (in air) and water (in soil) to produce glucose; the chemical energy that is used to fuel all the necessary internal reactions for plants to grow. In simple terms, in the presence of light plants&#8217; manufacture the carbohydrates they need to do &#8220;work.&#8221; Oxygen is a by-product of this process.
2. Respiration &#8211; this mostly occurs in the &#8220;dark&#8221; phase. Plants &#8220;burn&#8221; the carbohydrates they create during light reactions in the presence of oxygen to send the energy through the plant&#8217;s internal &#8220;wiring,&#8221; which is a network of proteins/amino acids to supply a variety of functions with the free energy they require. Carbon dioxide is a by-product of this process, making it a &#8220;mirror&#8221; reaction to the photosynthetic reaction, as above.
3.Transpiration &#8211; occurs at higher rates during the light reactions/photosynthetic activity. This relates to the loss of water vapor through the leaves, as water is transported from the growing medium with nutrients, through the roots. The nutrients are delivered into the plants, while a portion of the hydrogen and oxygen ions (from H2O) are assimilated through the plant. The majority of the water taken up escapes the plant through the leaves. Water pressure (turgor) inside the plant is what gives plants their rigidity and structure; as plants are after all, &#8220;bone-less.&#8221;

Light Energy = Growth: Healthy plants with ample CO2, water and nutrients will continue to photosynthesize under bright light conditions.


One of the most important things to understand about how these processes work on an individual basis, and as they do in harmony with one another, is that they need to be maintained in a balanced equation.
For example, the chemical equation in photosynthesis can be given as: 
So if one of the pre-cursors in the reaction is lacking, for example, the plant has only three units of carbon dioxide relative to six units of water in the presence of bright light (radiant energy), the reaction can only work as high as a rate that three units of carbon dioxide will allow, with the remainder of the light and water being &#8220;wasted.&#8221; In fact, it may create a situation that is more than just inputs being &#8220;wasted,&#8221; it can actually create situations where the plant is running at a deficit.
In other types of situations, common to indoor gardening, when temperatures climb above 85°F, the rate at which respiration occurs (the burning of carbohydrates for energy) can exceed the rate of photosynthesis (creating carbohydrates). This creates a situation where by some definition, the plant is &#8220;working itself to death.&#8221;
Very bright light conditions are easy for indoor gardeners to supply using HID (high intensity discharge) lighting sources. This is usually the factor that creates an &#8220;imbalance&#8221; in the equation and relationship between the photosynthetic process, respiration and transpiration. The plant is saturated with intense light energy, while other factors such as carbon dioxide, temperatures, minerals and vitamins required by photosynthesis, etc. are not available in the same abundance. This imbalance puts the plant in a situation similar to excessive temperatures where the plant is working itself to death.
Bear in mind that modern indoor growers are putting incredible demands on the super-strains of plants that are cultivating. In nature similar types of crops may require four to six plus months to reach maturity in natural settings. Indoors, growers are driving the same types of plants to reach complete maturity in two to four months. That equates to twice the work that is required by the plant on a day-to-day basis! The demands placed on the plants by the environment supplied by the indoor grower are astounding when you consider the time frame it takes the crop to reach maturity versus in natural settings.
*"Nature has created the perfect internal and inherent growing system (photosynthesis) within plants."*

So how exactly are we accomplishing this incredible feat as growers? Well, those of us who accomplish it the most successfully are driving and fuelling this natural process through improved crop growth technologies. As growers, we are supplying an abundance of the factors necessary and in the correct balance to amplify the plant&#8217;s natural and inherent responses.
In today&#8217;s day and age, it&#8217;s easy to provide optimal light durations (day lengths) and incredible lighting intensities using readily available artificial lighting sources. HPS (high pressure sodium) lamps do a good job of producing lots of lumens, although they are not as rich and complete as the sun in spectrum. They also produce a lot of heat, which can be detrimental to plant growth, as we discussed earlier.
Air- and water-cooled lighting fixtures can drastically reduce the excess unwanted heat created, removing it at the source, rather than overheating the plants. Artificial lighting spectrums can be improved by using modern HID lamps that have their spectrums enhanced to stimulate plant growth rather than illuminate parking lots. While they are no match for the sun&#8217;s &#8220;solar nutrition,&#8221; they are an improvement.
High output T5 fluorescent lights can be very rich in spectrum, and are ideal for stimulating healthy plant growth in the earlier stages, and can in some instances be used to raise plants to maturity.
Heavy Loads: When plants are able to manufacture adequate supplies of chemical energy, heavy fruit loads may develop.
LEDs perhaps offer growers the best opportunity to provide very exacting light wavelengths for different growth phases. At present, it would appear that the technology itself is &#8220;smarter&#8221; than we are; growers and LED manufacturers alike are learning about what will work best at different growth phases, as LED fixtures can be tailored to provide very exact wavelengths of light. The technology goes far beyond the capabilities of what HID lighting can offer. LED diodes emit very negligible amounts of heat, reducing cooling requirements and costs. The fact that they run cooler allows for more efficient supplementation of carbon dioxide levels in the growing environment for faster growth rates and bigger yields, due to reduced air exchange requirements.
Carbon dioxide (CO2) for light reactions is usually the most limiting factor in indoor gardens, assuming cooling requirements have been accomplished with a high level of control. If growers are able to maintain optimal temperatures during the intense light cycle, plants will grow at noticeably increased rates when elevating the levels of carbon dioxide in the growing environment. Carbon is the biggest component in the dry weight of plants, and elevating carbon dioxide levels can have a direct effect on increasing dry plant weights at maturity. Fermentation, releases of bottled CO2, and generation of CO2 through gas-fired combustion are common methods growers may use to elevate CO2 levels in the growing environment for better results.
All of the areas discussed above are &#8220;exogenous&#8221; or external factors that can be controlled by the grower through the use of specialized mechanical equipment. Now what about the internal or &#8220;endogenous&#8221; reactions that are going on inside of the plant? This is where the real magic happens.
Modern, advanced nutrient manufacturers have dissected the internal responses and materials required to fuel and sustain high rates of growth for intense indoor growing environments. These &#8220;ingredients&#8221; have been discovered, refined and blended into exacting ratios to create crop feeding programs that help meet and stimulate the tremendous functional demands placed on crops by modern indoor growers.
The end result of the photosynthetic response is glucose, which is &#8220;burned&#8221; during respiration to release energy. There are crop feeding supplements that are able to supply relatively available sources of carbohydrates to plants when they are applied accordingly. This means that for example, in instances when the rate of respiration is exceeding the rate at which photosynthesis (during high light and warm conditions in the presence of CO2), the plant&#8217;s reserves of energy may not run at a deficit, allowing the plant to continue growth, rather than &#8220;shutting down&#8221; to prevent exhaustion or even plant death.
Consider high intensity activity in humans such as long distance running. Athletes load up on carbohydrates to provide their bodies with the necessary levels of energy to meet the high demands of the task they are placing on their body&#8217;s energy system. During the activity, runners breathe harder, requiring more oxygen. Plant growth has a similar demand for vital gas, although it is carbon dioxide rather than oxygen. If there is insufficient carbohydrates or necessary vitamins, minerals, gases, etc., the runner will finish poorly, or may not even finish at all in some instances. This is the case with plants.
After strenuous physical demands plants, like athletes, also require proteins to repair and build new tissue and energy transfer ways to supply and direct energy. This is where L-amino acids for crops come into play. Plants normally have to manufacture amino acids and other forms of reduced nitrogen to help build new tissue and create the energy transfer ways.
Growers who supply crop feeding supplements that contain broad spectrum of L-amino acids including lysine during times of great mass gains, for example in the peak bloom phase, are in fact providing crops with the necessary materials to get bigger faster. The plant will not have to work as hard to manufacture these proteins, as they are supplied at some level of availability. Note that microbes in beneficial bacteria and fungi help to improve this process. This would be similar to an athlete drinking a well formulated protein supplement after strenuous physical activity versus eating a steak. The athlete&#8217;s body will more readily assimilate select proteins in their ideal ratios, rather than expending energy to convert proteins supplied in cruder forms such as meats, to forms that the body can use to build and repair tissue. This quickly translates into greater mass gains in shorter time frames; something every indoor grower should aim to accomplish.
Vitamins, minerals, enzymes and other co-factors also play a strong role at which the rate of all the reactions required by the plant to grow may occur. Most minerals are supplied to the plant through the roots, carried up with water in the transpiration process (loss of water through leaves). Without these vital minerals, and in their correct ratios for the type of crop being grown, the rate at which photosynthesis may occur will decrease. This is why it is important to choose your crop nutrients carefully. The correct balance and a high level of availability under a wide range of growing conditions should be of careful consideration.
Plants typically manufacture their own vitamins, enzymes and co-factors, although in nature it has been demonstrated that these substances may also occur in the growth medium and be transferred to the plant for uptake and assimilation for functions. Again, this is typically assisted through beneficial microbes, which are available in modern formulations to inoculate indoor crops. These beneficial vitamins, enzymes and co-factors can also be supplied through specialized and well formulated crop feeding additives more or less directly to the plants.
Similar in concept to supplementing the crop with carbohydrates and amino acids for higher rates of growth and mass gain, additions of vitamins, enzymes and co-factors will benefit the crop. By using specialized crop feeding programs designed to promote bigger yields and healthier plants grown under intense artificial light and elevated carbon dioxide levels, the grower is helping to &#8220;balance&#8221; the plant&#8217;s internal equation that is dictated by the three key foundations to plant growth: photosynthetic activity, respiration and transpiration.
Now that you know more about what exactly is making your favorite plants tick, you may be able to improve your yields, growth rates and crop quality by respecting and maintaining an understanding of these very important principles. Keep them in mind when constructing the ideal environment for your plant with regards to light intensity and quality, temperature and CO2 levels.
Once you can maintain and manage the optimal external environment, your crop can take advantage of full spectrum feeding programs that have been designed specifically to satisfy the needs of your plants being grown in an accelerated environment. In fact, some crop supplements will help your plants to maintain a higher degree of health and growth rates, even in less than perfect environments. However, supplements are not a replacement to creating the optimal growing environment for your favorite type of plants. It is about harmony, balance and respecting the perfect inherent mechanisms for growth that nature has developed, and with understanding we may achieve our own personal yield of dreams.

And one more,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

*pH Management for Optimal Results by Andrew Taylor* 


*Optimum pH for nutrient solutions*

For nutrients to remain dissolved and, therefore, available for uptake by roots, it is critical to maintain the pH between 5.0 and 6.0 with an absolute maximum of 6.5. When the pH of the nutrient solution is above 7.0, calcium, sulfate (and trace elements of copper, iron, manganese and zinc) can precipitate and become unavailable to the roots, causing plumbing blockages. High pH values, or those above 6.0, are to be avoided more than low values of 4.5 to 5.0. The effect of low pH upon the stability of nutrients is relatively insignificant.
The precise pH at which precipitation of macro-nutrients starts is determined by the combined concentrations of calcium and sulfate. Except for fertilizers low in calcium and sulfate this problem commonly occurs at pH 6.5 where the net* EC is 2.5 mS, or pH 7.0 for 1.5 mS solutions. Hence, to avoid precipitation, higher nutrient concentrations generally must be held at lower pH values. *Assume make-up water has nil EC.
In spite of this precipitation problem, some references advocate pH values well above 6.5 for some plant varieties, conditions that risk depleted concentrations of the above mentioned elements.




Figure one: Simplified illustration of how nutrient uptake effects pH of the nutrient solution


*pH recommendation of 6.2 to 6.3?*

Although 6.2 to 6.3 is a popular pH recommendation, which has no scientific basis. It appears to have gained mythological status from the early days of hydroponics when the only cheap means of measuring pH was the common &#8216;bromothymol blue&#8217; pH indicator used for testing fish tank water. Interestingly, the lowest pH value able to be determined by that indicator is about 6.2. Hence, this value has unfortunately become an entrenched recommendation in some sections of the hydroponic industry.
*Adjusting nutrient pH*


The working nutrient pH should be checked at the following times:
When working nutrient solutions are first made.
After the addition of top-up water or additives, especially if they are highly alkaline.
In re-circulating systems, pH should be checked on a daily basis because the uptake of water and nutrients causes pH to change (figure one).
It is best to adopt a pH maintenance regime that prevents pH from getting too high. If pH is too high for a long enough period of time, the resultant precipitate usually cannot be re-dissolved.




Figure two: pH indicators are useful for determining how much acid needs to be added to the nutrient reservoir.


*How to minimize pH fluctuation*


Use a nutrient brand that is highly pH buffered, particularly when using highly alkaline water.
Supply at least two gallons of nutrient for each large plant. Failure to do this will magnify pH (and EC) fluctuations, especially during hot and dry weather where water uptake and evaporation are excessive. Note, to avoid excess water uptake and evaporation; keep air temperature below 86oF and relative humidity above 50 per cent.
*How to adjust pH*

Step 1. Measure the pH: Use either a liquid pH indicator or an electronic pH meter (see sections below). Before measuring the pH, ensure that the nutrient is well stirred and that the sampling container is clean.
Step 2. Choosing a target pH: Note that it is inconvenient and unnecessary to hold pH at a single point value. Therefore, choose a target pH that minimizes the amount of pH maintenance:
Step 3. Adjusting the pH: Add a small amount of pH down or up product*. Then stir well and check pH. Repeat this process until the target pH is achieved.
*Important: Pre-dilute the dose into one quart (or at least 100 fold) of water before adding to nutrient, then rapidly stir the nutrient as you add this mixture. Failure to do this may cause permanent precipitation of essential nutrients. Also, if accidental overdosing to above 6.5 occurs, reduce the pH back to below 6.0 as quickly as possible using pH down.




Figure three: This is the color range produced by a wide range pH indicator within the optimum pH range 5.0 to 6.5. Note the ease with which pH change can be detected.


*Handy hints for adjusting nutrient pH*

1. Add &#8220;high pH&#8221; (alkaline) additives before adding nutrient: Most additives will affect nutrient pH at least slightly. The best technique to adopt with those that elevate pH significantly is to add them to the water and adjust the pH down to 6.0 prior to adding the nutrient.
The less preferred but simplest alternative is to pre-dilute the additive in a separate volume of raw water. Then once this solution is added to the nutrient solution, quickly lower the pH to below 6.5. Note that a white cloudy precipitate (calcium sulfate) may form when the pre diluted additive initially merges with the nutrient solution. However, because the initial particle size of the precipitate is small, it will usually re-dissolve if the pH is immediately re-adjusted.
2. Do not pre-adjust pH of raw water: Note that the pH values being discussed here are the values of the working nutrient solution, not your make-up water. Unless your make-up water has a high alkalinity, do not bother attempting to adjust its pH prior to the nutrient being added. If you attempt this procedure you will typically get wild pH swings either side of the pH target without ever landing on the target value.
3. Estimating the volume of acid (especially for larger systems):
Step 1. Take a one quart sub-sample (or known volume) of working nutrient.
Step 2. Add a few drops of pH indicator (figure two &#8216;a&#8217.
Step 3. While stirring this solution, measure the volume of acid required to turn this solution yellow &#8211; figure two &#8216;b&#8217; (Yellow indicates a pH of 6.0 with most broad range liquid indicators).
Step 4. Multiply the volume of acid* by the volume of nutrient in your reservoir. That calculation will give you the volume of acid required to adjust the entire volume down to pH 6.0, for example.​*Measuring pH with &#8216;indicators&#8217;*


pH indicators are undoubtedly the simplest and most reliable method of measuring nutrient pH. Although they will not distinguish between, for example, a pH of 5.2 and 5.3, wide range indicators with good color resolution can be:

fast and user friendly
extremely accurate and reliable
economical
In comparison, pH meters require constant up-keep (i.e. cleaning, calibrating and correct storage), but even then may not give reliable readings.
pH indicators work on the principle that the color produced by the particular dye used in the indicator formulation is dependant on the pH of the solution (figure three).
Experience shows if you are aiming to adjust pH to 5.5 (orange) then an accuracy of +/- 0.2 is achievable. Because of their fundamental accuracy, reliability and easy of use, wide range pH indicators are the preferred method for measurement of pH in nutrient solutions. Note that pool and aquarium pH indicators are usually not suitable because unlike broad range indicators, they do not operate below pH 6.0.




Figure four: Thoroughly stir nutrient reservoir before sampling. Then leave the electrode in the sample for a few minutes before switching the meter on and taking the measurement. Do not immerse the electrode deeper than ~1 inch.


*Taking pH readings*

Step 1. Before measuring the pH ensure that the nutrient is well stirred, especially after pH up or down products are used. This is one of the most common mistakes made when testing pH (or conductivity). Also, ensure that the sampling container is clean.
Step 2. Using the sampling vial, remove a small sample of nutrient from the nutrient reservoir, add a drop of the indicator, mix, and then compare the final solution color with those on the colored reference chart (figure three).
Step 3. If the pH is not between 5.0 and 6.5, adjust it immediately.
*Measuring pH with pH meters*

pH meters employing a glass electrode are useful for precise pH measurement in nutrient solutions but require frequent calibration, proper storage and handling to ensure accuracy and reliability. The principle on which such meters operate is based on the fact that when glass of a certain composition separates two aqueous solutions having different hydrogen ion concentrations, a voltage is developed between the two faces of the glass. The electronic meter is simply a very sensitive voltmeter which measures that voltage but is calibrated in terms of pH units instead of volts.
*Obtaining pH readings*

Step 1. Make sure the meter is calibrated.

Step 2. Remove a &#8216;representative&#8217; sample from the nutrient reservoir (figure four):

Stir the nutrient thoroughly prior to sampling.
Ensure the sampling container is clean.
Step 3. Rinse electrode in distilled water before immersing in the sample. Wait a few minutes before switching the meter on and recording the pH. Wait longer if the sample&#8217;s temperature is significantly different from 77oF.
Step 4. If the pH is not between 5.0 and 6.5, adjust it immediately.
Step 5. When complete, rinse the electrode with distilled water. Store the electrode in a proper storage solution when not in use.


The website is the same as the title of this thread, Maximumyield.com. There are lots of good articles there and it is like an online magazine or Ezine, they have hundreds of great articles as well as several charts (click extras link), I hope everyone enjoys them as much as I did 

Riddle Out


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## Wetdog (Apr 2, 2010)

Interesting read, I'll check out the site.

Thanks!

Wet


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## zigzag6 (Apr 2, 2010)

Im not gonna read all that , but what does it say ... in a couple of words ?


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## esteguevon (Apr 2, 2010)

nice, you always seem to help me out


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## svchop889 (Apr 3, 2010)

zigzag6 said:


> Im not gonna read all that , but what does it say ... in a couple of words ?


nope I wont do it. If your too lazy to read it you don't deserve to have the knowledge it contains.


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## EdGreyfox (Apr 3, 2010)

Interesting read Riddle, especially the first article. You know all the trials and tribulations I've gone through with the grow I'm going to be harvesting in the next couple of weeks, and the more I think about the entire situation the more I'm convinced that the spider mites and my over reaction when spraying them with neem oil only created a small part of the probems I've encountered since then. I've continued to sort of blame the mites and neem overdose for the way the plants failed to continue growing (they've added a total of about 6" in the last 7 weeks) in the early part of flowering, but all this time I've had a sneaking suspicion that the FF nute mix for the flowering cycle just isn't right. I only use these nutrients because the person who got me started growing swears by them and i wanted to give them a fair chance, but based on the results I've had from this grow I don't think I'll be using their flowering nutes in the future. Don't get me wrong-I've got some good sized colas and a lot of nice secondary bud sites, but I've also got nute deficiency and lockout issues that I can't seem to correct. My goal is to have plants that are healthy and green right up to the day I harvest, and the FF mix just isn't cutting it.

Trying to figure out exactly what ratio your running with FF is a pain anyway, because your mixing anywhere between 2 and 4 products that all use very different amounts and that have radically different n-p-k ratios. I LIKE the FF vegging nutrients since it's pretty much just a two product mix (one has guano and worm casting, the other is a 6-4-4) and I have had nothing but good results with it. However, the flowering mix is just a bit odd. Just as an example, this week their "schedule" calls for 2 tsp of tiger bloom (2-8-4), a tblspn of big bloom(guano and worm casting), and 1/4-1/2 tsp of cha ching (9-50-10) pe gallon. Now, I'm not sure if I'm figuring this right or not, but wouldn't that give a ratio of approx 13-66-18? And if so, where did they come up with the idea that P should be 5x the amount of N and 4.5X the amount of K? I know it's week 7 of flowering, but this is the mixture they say to use from week 4 on. The more I play with trying to adjust the mix the more I think It's time to throw this stuff out and go get some jacks bloom booster and maybe a thing of dyna grow.

Riddle- Got one question for you since we're local- How are you handling heat build up in your grow room now that it's starting to get above 60 on a regular basis? I've got the windows for my rooms wide open and have good sized floor fans running whenever the lights are on (I shut them down at night because I use hot shot pest killers and they require still air to function properly), but I still keep creeping up into the high 80's by late afternoon. I can't add AC or inline fans/ducting to those rooms, but trying to relocate to a cooler part of the house (the basement) creates a different set of problems. If you had to choose between higher temps or having your grow in an area that you couldn't keep the pets out of, which would you choose?


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## riddleme (Apr 3, 2010)

EdGreyfox said:


> If you had to choose between higher temps or having your grow in an area that you couldn't keep the pets out of, which would you choose?


interesting question, I would have to chose the option that gave control over the temps one way or the other. Actually turned on the AC last week that day we hit 80.

I suppose I would possibly build a cage for the plants in the basement like out of chicken wire to keep the pets away from em or wall of a new room all off which cost $$$ but knowing how important temps are, I would do something

on that note I have been reading several other articles at the MaximumYield site and gotta tell ya the info there is golden!!!


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## bckiller12 (Apr 3, 2010)

yea thats alot too read!! i forgot why i clicked on this thread!!!


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## plaguedog (Apr 3, 2010)

Seems like the section on NPK values is spot on according to what a lot of very experienced growers advise on this sight.


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## cannatari (Apr 3, 2010)

Does anybody know of a product line that has the N-P-K packaged individually? Good reads, thanks riddleme!


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## i81two (Apr 4, 2010)

Great read Riddleme ! This article is what is running in my head everyday. I just dumped some $$ on a kick ass furnace /AC/humidifierthat controls my temp and RH to within 1-2 dagrees. I run 4000w over 2 4x8 trays. I got my ph and nutes dialed in to whatever i want I run co2 @ optimum level all day. 

With that said I hear people say that if you are not hitting temps of 80-85 then co2 is useless. Is that true ? it just seems nicer in the room when itv is 75-80.

The other thing that makes me spin is trying to figure out is the max amount of food to give them. Any ppm suggestions. I am using GH 3 part + kool bloom and it seems to be easy to work with and forgiving. Any thoughts on nute brands and NPK ratios.
Thanks again. This thread should be stickyed.


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## riddleme (Apr 5, 2010)

i81two said:


> Great read Riddleme ! This article is what is running in my head everyday. I just dumped some $$ on a kick ass furnace /AC/humidifierthat controls my temp and RH to within 1-2 dagrees. I run 4000w over 2 4x8 trays. I got my ph and nutes dialed in to whatever i want I run co2 @ optimum level all day.
> 
> With that said I hear people say that if you are not hitting temps of 80-85 then co2 is useless. Is that true ? it just seems nicer in the room when itv is 75-80.
> 
> ...


True using CO2 allows temps to be higher, but personally I would prefer the 75 to 80 temps and would simply use less CO2 (I'm a fresh air grower, don't supliment CO2)

As for nutes I use Jack's Classic and DynaGro in a distinct combination, I am in soil (+ soiless mix), so don't check PPM's and I totally explain how I feed in my Calling all Noobs Thread

Hope that helps, glad you enjoyed the articles


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## seasmoke (Apr 5, 2010)

Great read Riddleme, it made alot of sence, and eased some of my worries. Sounds like we grow the same way...Haven't used dynagrow though...


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## riddleme (Apr 5, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> Great read Riddleme, it made alot of sence, and eased some of my worries. Sounds like we grow the same way...Haven't used dynagrow though...


Love DynaGro  gonna be checkin out thier Pro Tekt silica additive in my next grow, they say it is needed with the CMH light I'll be using

Nice to meet fellow growers that understand a bit of botany and keep plants healthy, glad you like the articles

Keep em green


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## notoriousb (Apr 8, 2010)

thanks for those articles riddleme 

and people still wonder why their leaves turn yellow and fall off in the middle of bloom, LOL. great read for anyone to just take the time

thanks again man


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## Vtec9010 (Apr 10, 2010)

More great info Riddleme! Everything you post seems to have some great information!I will definitely be checking out the site. Thanks again!


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## daisy2687 (Apr 10, 2010)

i81two said:


> Great read Riddleme ! This article is what is running in my head everyday. I just dumped some $$ on a kick ass furnace /AC/humidifierthat controls my temp and RH to within 1-2 dagrees. I run 4000w over 2 4x8 trays. I got my ph and nutes dialed in to whatever i want I run co2 @ optimum level all day.
> 
> With that said I hear people say that if you are not hitting temps of 80-85 then co2 is useless. Is that true ? it just seems nicer in the room when itv is 75-80.
> 
> ...


From my understanding of botany (limited) an increase in temperature (facilitated by co2) would increase transpiration and thus increase water and nutrient intake. This would allow more 'available' energy for photosynthesis. If you had enough light.

I've seen people running their rooms at 90-92f with this concept at 15-1700 ppm co2.


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## riddleme (Apr 11, 2010)

Yet another great article I ran across while researching silica


*Nutrients: Beyond Macros and Micros*

by Dr. Lynette Morgan
2010-03-01

The nutrient solution is the foundation on which hydroponic plant growth is based. Its composition, in terms of essential nutrient ions, oxygen, microbial life and other beneficial elements determines the health and growth rate of plants in hydroponics. While most growers are familiar with the essential macro and micro elements required for crop growth, plant matter has been found to contain well over 60 elements and soils are typically composed largely of aluminum, silicon and iron. Plant tissue has been found to contain elements as diverse as lead, gold, mercury, arsenic, uranium, sodium and many others, levels of which often reflect those found in the soil. In hydroponics, it has been found that plants will absorb and accumulate numerous non-essential elements from the nutrient solution, however, being non-essential does not necessarily mean that these extra elements are not beneficial to different plant species.
Most of the potentially beneficial elements only need to be present in the nutrient solution or root zone in such minute quantities that some find their way into the plants environment through natural means, in water supplies or growing substrates and even as dust in the air. With many of the beneficial elements required at just a fraction of a part per million, there is such a fine line between a safe amount and toxicity, that the best method of incorporating these into a nutrient solution is with the use of commercially prepared hydroponic supplements, many of which are organically based. On the market these days there are nutrient concentrates that feature a number of the proven beneficial elements such as silica, selenium, nickel and others as well as a good balance of the essential macro and micro nutrients. In the future we can expect to see the range of beneficial elements in commercially prepared nutrients increase as scientists uncover more of the secrets of advanced plant nutrition.




Different plant species often vary in their response to many beneficial nutrients and supplements.


*Why incorporate nutrient supplements*

There are two main reasons for the use of beneficial elements as nutrient supplements in hydroponics. Firstly, many studies have demonstrated that certain non essential elements have beneficial effects on the growth and development of many plant species. In fact it is likely that additional essential micro elements will be identified in the future, those which are currently only required in extremely low levels and thus difficult to identify and quantify. Secondly, many hydroponic growers are interested in the health giving properties of the fruits and vegetables they produce and there is a growing area of research into supplementing some of the human essential elements into plant material. Although plants need a certain diet of their own essential nutrients, humans require many others such as sodium, iodine, cobalt and selenium, as well as silicon, chromium, tin and vanadium in minute quantities. We obtain these nutrients from our food, and while many are present in animal products, we get certain amounts from eating plants. Many of the crops we eat contain the extra elements we need, although they arent essential for the plant itself. There has been some concern that hydroponic crops, grown with carefully formulated, salt fertilizer-based nutrients dont contain the full range of extra elements required for a healthy diet. This is not entirely correct as most water sources contain small amounts of a large number of the same minerals found in soils and these do find their way into hydroponic crops in quantities comparable to well grown field crops. However, the hydroponic nutrient solution can be boosted with small amounts of the same potentially beneficial nutrient elements found in healthy soils and in many cases will then produce more nutritionally complete fruits and vegetables than those grown in many heavily cropped soil systems.
By having plants naturally incorporate human beneficial elements such as selenium into their tissue at increased levels, human nutrition can be improved. Furthermore, not only do some elements such as selenium play a role in health, and in some cases, cancer prevention, but they are incorporated into plant tissue in a much more biologically active form, which is more suited to human intake. Hydroponic garlic grown in selenium-enriched nutrient solution has been shown to have potent anti-cancer properties, which are a consequence of the form of selenium that develops inside plant tissue. The potential for enrichment of human diets with beneficial elements and organic supplements in hydroponic crop production is huge and something that even small growers can take advantage of.
*Beneficial micro nutrients*

Some of the beneficial micro nutrient supplements have undergone considerable investigation by scientists while others are only just being looked into. Aluminum, cobalt, sodium, selenium and silica all have known roles in certain plant species, which are well documented. Aluminum has been shown to be beneficial to some plants species, particularly those adapted to acidic soils when supplied at low concentration. Tea plants show increased antioxidant properties and increased growth in the presence of aluminum in the root zone. Cobalt concentrations in plants are typically in the range 0.1 to 10 ppm on a dry weight basis and cobalt is often found in low levels in natural water sources (0.04 ppm). At low levels, cobalt can have a number of beneficial effects, particularly in leguminous plants such as peas where application of eight ppm cobalt increases growth, nodule number and weight as well as seedpod yield and quality. Cobalt may also play a role in slowing leaf aging and disease resistance in some species. Since cobalt is also essential for human health, addition of this element to nutrient solutions can enhance the nutritional quality of hydroponic food. While selenium enrichment of food crops for human health has been an area of recent study, selenium may also have a beneficial role in plant growth and development. Plant tissue contains less than one ppm of selenium in most species; however, selenium is chemically similar to sulfur, a plant macro element, and appears to be metabolized via the same mechanisms. Trace amounts of selenium have been found to stimulate growth in a variety of plant species including ryegrass, lettuce and potato and to also provide the plants with more resistance to ultraviolet radiation. There is also evidence that boosting selenium levels in hydroponically grown plants can help protect them from biotic stress such as fungal diseases. Titanium is another element whose role in plant development and metabolism has been studied for over 90 years. While plant tissue is generally low in titanium content, being 0.1 to 10 ppm on average, titanium is present in soil in relatively high concentrations. Studies have found that the chlorophyll content of hydroponic tomato plants increased when titanium was added. When maize was provided with titanium in solution, the yield increased by 25 to 30 per cent and the concentration of sugars in the grain also rose.
*Like humans, plants need a certain diet of their own essential nutrients.*

Another interesting potential beneficial element is iodine. Iodine has been found to stimulate the synthesis of cellulose and the lignification of the stem tissue that helps the mechanical strengthening of the plant. Iodine has been found to increase the concentration of ascorbic acid in plants and the amount of total free-amino-acids in crops grown in solution culture. Iodine also seems to increase salt tolerance in plants by facilitating a lower chlorine uptake.
There are increasing reports of other beneficial elements, which may play a role in plant growth and development. These include: silver (Ag), cerium (Ce), chromium (Cr), lanthanum (La), rubidium (Rb), tin (Sn), serium (Sr), vanadium (V) and tungsten (W). It is likely there are other elements whose quantities in plant tissue are so minute it is hard to quantify their role or presence, but these will lead to some exciting discoveries in plant nutrition in years to come.
*Organic nutrient supplements*

While individual beneficial elements such as selenium, chromium and nickel can be added to nutrient products in fairly precise quantities via the use of fertilizer salts, they can also be supplemented with organic additives and mineral products. Organic concentrates derived from natural materials such as seaweed, fish waste, compost and vermicast, mineral clay and earth extracts contain a wide spectrum of elements including levels of macro nutrients, micro nutrients and beneficial trace minerals. Organic supplements may not be as precise as using fertilizer salts of beneficial elements; however, good quality products are likely to contain a wide range of beneficial elements and potentially other growth promoting compounds such as humic/fulvic acids amongst others. Seaweed, for example, contains a wide range of minerals, some of which are known to be beneficial for plant growth and disease resistance, however, many decades ago scientists also found that naturally occurring cytokinins in seaweed could provide a growth stimulator effect. The level of naturally occurring cyctokinins and the growth effects are of course largely dependant on the species and source of seaweed and obtaining a stable extract for use in hydroponics. However, extracts of certain species of seaweed have been shown to improve root and shoot growth and improve stress resistance in some crops by increasing the natural production of antioxidants in the plant. Compost and vermicast-based extracts may also have the added advantage of boosting beneficial microbe levels in the root zone as well as providing a wide range of beneficial elements, although the composition of different supplements can be quite variable. Natural mineral, clay or earth extract products have been available for boosting the menu of elements for hydroponic plants for many years; these are a good way of safely incorporating rarer elements into nutrient solutions although they should be considered a slow release form of supplement.
*Silica  the missing macro element*

Silica is much more than a trace element in many plant species. In fact silica is considered to be a beneficial macro element for many crops with a wide range of benefits for hydroponic crop production. Several plants need silica for growth including rice, sugar cane and tomatoes. Silica is transported from the roots and travels up to the shoot in the xylem vessels and is deposited mainly as hydrated silica dioxide or as polysilicic acids. Once silica has been incorporated into plant issue in this form, it cant be redistributed throughout the plant, so it needs to be in constant supply if the entire plant is to contain a useful amount.
The use of soluble forms of silica as an additive in hydroponics is not new; many cucumber and rose growers are aware of the benefits of adding silica to the nutrient solution, whether it is in an organic or non organic form. Silica in cucumbers, for example, reduces the incidence and severity of powdery mildew and other fungi. Silica contributes to the strength and thickness of cell walls, helping to keep leaves in a good position for good light interception and to resist attacks by fungi and insects. Silica also assists with the absorption and translocation of several macro and micro nutrients and plays a role in allowing plants to survive and thrive in adverse growing conditions such as high salinity or excess elements in the solution or soil. Silica in solution should, however, not be considered a micro element; levels as high as 140 ppm have been shown to have the most significant results since silica is naturally found in many plant tissues at up to 10 per cent or higher (dry weight).
In the past silica has been a difficult element to supply at high rates in hydroponic nutrient solutions. Chemical forms such as potassium metasilicate not only have a very high pH, but tend to form a glassy like substance, which blocks drippers and emitters when the enriched nutrient solution comes into contact with the air. These days more forms of silica are available on the hydroponic market and nutrient products and supplements containing silica as a macro element are readily available and easy to use.


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## bigman4270 (Apr 11, 2010)

riddleme said:


> Love DynaGro  gonna be checkin out thier Pro Tekt silica additive in my next grow, they say it is needed with the CMH light I'll be using
> 
> Nice to meet fellow growers that understand a bit of botany and keep plants healthy, glad you like the articles
> 
> Keep em green


So why would it be benificial for the CMH? Is that exclusive to the hid bulbs or would this additive be benificial for the CFL grower? I am using the grow 7-9-5 and I see it does not contain silica. 

Big


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## riddleme (Apr 11, 2010)

bigman4270 said:


> So why would it be benificial for the CMH? Is that exclusive to the hid bulbs or would this additive be benificial for the CFL grower? I am using the grow 7-9-5 and I see it does not contain silica.
> 
> Big


 
Hi Big

I just did a whole write up on the benefits of silica in my https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/316301-calling-all-noob-growers-5.html thread, page 5

added several bits of new info there this weekend


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## wotanskrieger (Apr 15, 2010)

sweeet,...i'll have to finish reading when i'm not at work..lol..


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## riddleme (Apr 15, 2010)

wotanskrieger said:


> sweeet,...i'll have to finish reading when i'm not at work..lol..


Glad you enjoyed it, there is a ton of great info at the Max yield site


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## sharingan989686 (Apr 18, 2010)

This has been one of the most helpful of all the forums i have searched. Most of the information that authors focus on with growing is well known, i have been searching for the ultimate break down. Right now I'm using a shit tea concoction with carbon, amino blast, some dissolved rock minerals, and microbial soil with an oxidation bubbler. Im at 4 weeks and thinking about flushing. should i continue to add certain supplements.( Carbon (carbohydrates), Amino Blast, Rock Minerals (micronutes) ) Thank you for your very helpful post, bookmarked!


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## riddleme (Apr 18, 2010)

sharingan989686 said:


> This has been one of the most helpful of all the forums i have searched. Most of the information that authors focus on with growing is well known, i have been searching for the ultimate break down. Right now I'm using a shit tea concoction with carbon, amino blast, some dissolved rock minerals, and microbial soil with an oxidation bubbler. Im at 4 weeks and thinking about flushing. should i continue to add certain supplements.( Carbon (carbohydrates), Amino Blast, Rock Minerals (micronutes) ) Thank you for your very helpful post, bookmarked!


Can't really say as I just use regular chem nutes I get at my local nursery
(Jack's Classic & DynaGro)

How is that tea working for ya?

There are growers here that mix thier own nutes, Fatman is one I can think of

I have my own way of growing, not every one agrees with me 

Details in my sig links


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## jimbizzzale67123 (Apr 18, 2010)

Wow just awesome I have always struggled with Nutrients and understanding where they fit with marijuana and the shit that is on the back of the container.


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## Shrubs First (Apr 20, 2010)

I have around 7-6 maximum yield mags sittin on the coffee table, along with urban gardens,
and indoor gardeners.. All are free, and therefore contain significant amounts of adverts, but
they do have some great articles. Urban Garden is my fav.


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## Shrubs First (Apr 20, 2010)

The one thing I don't agree with in that pH article, is it says specifically, 
to "Use a nutrient brand that is highly pH buffered." A buffer is a chemical 
that helps maintain pH stability of the nutrient solution. A lot of growers aren&#8217;t 
aware of this little known fact, but a lot of nutrient companies use magnesium, 
calcium and potassium carbonate or bicarbonate as their pH buffers. This is 
absolutely not a good idea. Here&#8217;s why: carbonates and bicarbonates are anions 
and add to the alkalinity of your nutrient solution and growing medium, and even 
though they might buffer the pH of your nutrient solution a bit, these "down fast"
pH buffers are actually dirty and will cause your growing mediums pH to accelerate up.


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## Shrubs First (Apr 20, 2010)

So if a nutrient company actually cared enough, knew what they were doing
and was willing to spend the extra time and money they could make a perfectly
balanced nutrient solution that would keep the pH in the &#8216;sweet spot&#8221; in your
growing medium at all times.

How would a nutrient company do that exactly? First they would have to tune
the cations and anions of all the elements in the nutrient solution to a specific type
of plant. And once you also knew what the exact macro, micro and secondary
nutrient ratios of that specific plant was... You could then use your nutrient solutions 
nitrogen sources to help do the &#8220;balancing&#8221; act for you, because nitrogen is abundantly 
used by your plant and it is available in both cation (ammonium) and anion (nitrate) forms.
Now we&#8217;re getting some place. Only problem is, if you look at the hydroponics nutrients out 
there most of them use only nitrate forms as their nitrogen source, which is an anion 
form of nitrogen and drives your pH up in your growing medium as fast as a speeding bullet.


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## riddleme (Apr 21, 2010)

Good stuff shrubs, perhaps you should write an article for Max Yield!


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## Shrubs First (Apr 21, 2010)

Haha, hey man, All credit to you for bringin it out of me. I love thinking about
this stuff.


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## Mr. Blue (Apr 21, 2010)

Started off interesting... Then I got high.

Scrib'd to come back to again later. Nice write up and thanks for taking the time.


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## reefacheefa (May 5, 2010)

goodness, think im gonna wait a lil while to come back to the advanced section. very interesting post, definately gotta build up to it


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## OZUT (May 6, 2010)

Interesting read, gonna finish it later


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## Cali chronic (May 6, 2010)

Interesting read... makes me want to invent something. I was just looking at nutes today and bought some 0 10 10 for some flowering now I am not sure about it. I originally was looking for----guess----wait for it----Phosphates! hahaha Then I said do not like to get 1 -2 -1.5 seems like a waste? for such a little amount. Now I guess I read your post.
+rep


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## InfiniteThought (Jun 11, 2010)

wow great info. I always wondered about the lack of N in bloom, seemed like a bad plan to me...in addition, high P nutes always remind me of explosives and makes your weed smoke like them too...


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## riddleme (Jun 12, 2010)

there is followup research on this in my Nuggets detailing the "new" proper ratios and a few ways to get them cheaply


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## cowboylogic (Jun 20, 2010)

riddleme said:


> Love DynaGro  gonna be checkin out thier Pro Tekt silica additive in my next grow, they say it is needed with the CMH light I'll be using
> 
> Nice to meet fellow growers that understand a bit of botany and keep plants healthy, glad you like the articles
> 
> Keep em green


You got a CMH too huh. Just got mine last week. Cannot wait to flower with it. I am very excited about. Look at the spectrumView attachment 1002747 how can we not be excited.


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## riddleme (Jun 20, 2010)

cowboylogic said:


> You got a CMH too huh. Just got mine last week. Cannot wait to flower with it. I am very excited about. Look at the spectrumView attachment 1002747 how can we not be excited.


Exactly what I've been screaming about, folks would rather follow the herd


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## MuppetMan1989 (Jul 17, 2010)

riddleme I'm very impressed. Keep all of the great info coming.

One Love
-MuppetMan


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## riddleme (Jul 17, 2010)

Thank you, doing just that in my new grow journal (Balls to the Wall, sig link)


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## johnnycash (Jul 18, 2010)

No one for all 3. They just dont function the same


cannatari said:


> Does anybody know of a product line that has the N-P-K packaged individually? Good reads, thanks riddleme!


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## Illumination (Jul 22, 2010)

cannatari said:


> Does anybody know of a product line that has the N-P-K packaged individually? Good reads, thanks riddleme!


I beg to differ kind sir:

http://www.planetnatural.com/site/organic-nitrogen.html

http://www.planetnatural.com/site/organic-potassium.html

http://www.planetnatural.com/site/organic-phosphorous.html

There are others as well...hope this helps

Namaste'

"A state licensed personal medical grow...Thank you"


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## Unclejoe51 (Jul 24, 2010)

Our local grow shop gives away Maximum Yield for free every month. I agree, lots of good info. But, I've also found that every grow is different & I'm always looking for the best way to increase my yields. I've stuck with the Ionic- Grow, Boost & Bloom but now also use the FF- Open Sesame & Beastie Bloomz and like to finish with H&G Shooting Powder. No complaints so far !!!!!!!


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## buraka415 (Aug 1, 2010)

I was thinking of getting some H&G shooting pwder. you like it eh?


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 1, 2010)

P is not mobile regarding outdoor growing. It must be placed at the root zone to be of any benefit.


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## moash (Aug 2, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> P is not mobile regarding outdoor growing. It must be placed at the root zone to be of any benefit.


what do u mean?
dont typical feedings occur at the root zone?
i dont comprehend,i thought P is mobile


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## allen bud (Mar 13, 2011)

good read clead some things up for me thanks !


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## xivex (Mar 13, 2011)

Love max yield and urban garden. Pick em up at local hydro store each visit. Both mags post all their articles online so you can read them even if you dont get the mags. Just google it. Learned tons from both of these publications. Specifically loved all the co2 articles max yield has put out as well as the vapor pressure deficit in plant leaves written by urban garden (see my journal entry for it). Allows you to use a laser temp gun to check plant leaf temps and use that plus current room temp to determine proper humidity levels based on the vpd of plant leaves. Great stuff!

Truly showed me how to manage humidity levels in veg, and that i needed to be running much higher rH % levels than i was...think 70s instead of 50-60rH%. Of course it depends on ambient room air temps, but for me it was around 75%rH

X


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 13, 2011)

moash said:


> what do u mean?
> dont typical feedings occur at the root zone?
> i dont comprehend,i thought P is mobile


It quickly gets locked up in native soil, chemically transformed into a salt that the plant is incapable of taking up especially in calcareous soils. In potting soil, you're OK, if outdoors, something like superphosphate really needs to be mixed with native soil. Mychorizzial fungi help with the chelation of P.


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## dlively11 (Mar 13, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> It quickly gets locked up in native soil, chemically transformed into a salt that the plant is incapable of taking up especially in calcareous soils. In potting soil, you're OK, if outdoors, something like superphosphate really needs to be mixed with native soil. Mychorizzial fungi help with the chelation of P.


Completely incorrect and I cant imagine why you are bothering to post such utter nonsense.


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## j420man (Aug 8, 2011)

good read riddleme  i am a caregiver in colorado as well  as for the temp question this has been my experience . my grow has 1500 ppm co2 all day and the temps hit around 92 at the peak of the day. i do notice even at 92 the plants don't get heat stress at all.that being said i run the same in the winter and my room temps are 78.and they seem to yield about 10% more but the quality is the same.thats in both the veg and bloom rooms . and also i use sealed rooms no air in or out . in summer fall winter spring without co2 my yield was half and my potency went down. i grow soil in the summer and hydro the rest of the year.in both mediums my buds are a little less dense when grown in 92 degree room .so i honestly think 85-88 degrees is optimum with 1500 co2 . but temps are only one part of the whole .i think nutes and lights are much more important.if a person uses co2 but doesnt have at least a 600 hps i'm not sure it would be worth using .if a grower adds the co2 but doesnt increase nutes it wont do any good ass well.so a lot of light and nutes are more important factors in my experience. but temps will always be an important factor when it comes to density and smell and resin .at 92 degrees i keep my humidity at 35% with a dehumidifier. im sure humidity is also an important factor at least as important as temps .


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## bcguy01 (Aug 8, 2011)

i like max yield


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## Malus420 (Aug 9, 2011)

Very nice read Riddleme I really enjoyed it and learned something more today as well. Knowledge is power and it's the way to big buds too


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## Malus420 (Aug 11, 2011)

Just a question mate or two, I read through the whole thread a couple of times and I was wondering a couple of things. I understand that throughout the flowering phase it is suggested to maintain an N-P-K ratio of 1:1:1 asides a P:K boost of 2:1 on the first week and 1:2 one the last before the flush. The thing is that I can't find any organic nutrients where I live with ratios close to that so I made some calculations of combining my Biobizz bloom and grow to achieve a similar to 1:1:1 ratio. The thing is with the extra P:K doses, should I just mix to a 1:3:2 ratio for the first week and 1:2:3 for the last and add some micro nuts or epsom salts or molasses or something? I also have a bottle of PK13/14 and a Bloombastic that I think has a 0-20-20 ratio or something similar... 

Also what about the fact that supposedly we need to create a N deficiency for late flowering in order for the plant to utilize it's storage, will those ratios suffice and if not will the last 10 days to 2 weeks of flushing be enough for that reason? Sorry for all the questions and thanks in advance!

Cheers,


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 11, 2011)

Malus420 said:


> Just a question mate or two, I read through the whole thread a couple of times and I was wondering a couple of things. I understand that throughout the flowering phase it is suggested to maintain an N-P-K ratio of 1:1:1 asides a P:K boost of 2:1 on the first week and 1:2 one the last before the flush. The thing is that I can't find any organic nutrients where I live with ratios close to that so I made some calculations of combining my Biobizz bloom and grow to achieve a similar to 1:1:1 ratio. The thing is with the extra P:K doses, should I just mix to a 1:3:2 ratio for the first week and 1:2:3 for the last and add some micro nuts or epsom salts or molasses or something? I also have a bottle of PK13/14 and a Bloombastic that I think has a 0-20-20 ratio or something similar...
> 
> Also what about the fact that supposedly we need to create a N deficiency for late flowering in order for the plant to utilize it's storage, will those ratios suffice and if not will the last 10 days to 2 weeks of flushing be enough for that reason? Sorry for all the questions and thanks in advance!
> 
> Cheers,


Forget everything you've read in pot forums as much of it is not correct and goes against the laws of botany.

Growing is not black and white...... you don't give them such and such during some week 2, 3 or so, that is noobie talk parroted by forum members, vendor salesmen, charts and such. Your goal is to produce and maintain the most amount of healthy root mass and green foliage you can until harvest. 

One of the biggest pot forum myths is creating a N deficiency at any time. You tell me, why would you want to defoliate your plant just when it needs those simple carbos, proteins, etc. the most? If the plant needs more N during week 7 of flowering to retain leaves, then that's what you do, give it more N. 

Think outside of the (popular forum) box, learn what makes a plant tick, and you'll be fine.

UB


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## Malus420 (Aug 11, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Forget everything you've read in pot forums as much of it is not correct and goes against the laws of botany.
> 
> Growing is not black and white...... you don't give them such and such during some week 2, 3 or so, that is noobie talk parroted by forum members, vendor salesmen, charts and such. Your goal is to produce and maintain the most amount of healthy root mass and green foliage you can until harvest.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this mate, I guess back to experimenting then. I prefer it that way anyway, I'm just fishing around ideas to experiment with not sticking to any rules or charts btw!


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## uncle.duke (Mar 27, 2013)

BUmp!!! Bump!!!


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## eltabares (Mar 28, 2013)

just in a couple of words then...





READ ME!


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## dadio161 (Mar 31, 2013)

this is an old thread by a guy who doesn't come here anymore.


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## Sampson pimpson (Jul 22, 2013)

Thank you, it's not actually that bad of a task to just read it. My Mary is my lady... can't do much to please her...kinda like any other chick, lol... but if I can't do it with my charm and monster dong... im willing to be educated and learn how to knock her boots. Thanks for the knowledge pimpin' respect. Curious, I've just started 12/12 and own the foxfarm growbig ive applied, along with a still unused jacks blossom booster 10-30-20 I've heard great stuff about this soluble booster... I assume to wait for the jacks to be applied, but when I introduce it, should I use part grow big and part jacks blossom booster? You have supplemented my knowledge greatly and again thank you, but I am learning it seems best as a diluted mixture of both. 2 plants (12/12) using ff growbig under 7 (13w) 1200lumens each, kelvin 2700k as well as 1 (68w) 4200 lumens kelvin 2700k not a hot room by any means... temps day 75/ night 68/72 degrees. The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit - Nelson Henderson


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