# What don't people understand about "Separation of Church and State"?



## Skittles McP (Feb 27, 2016)

I myself am an Atheist, but I don't see this as the driving reason behind my question. I firmly believe in freedom of religion, but more than that I believe the "Separation of Church and State" is of the utmost importance. If the government were to adopt a certain religion, it only signifies the beginning of the end of freedom of religion. And there are prime examples of how a government adopting a religion can lead to the government infringing on the rights of other people. 

So why are there so many people out there that want to make our nation a "Christian Nation". Not everyone is Christian, not everyone shares your beliefs and values. Maybe these people are just set in their ways and there is no arguing with them. 

I'm not going to cite specific examples unless someone explicitly asks or brings it up. I don't want this to become a giant argument about specific topics but more about the underlying problem (Separation of Church and State). 

What are your thoughts? If you choose "It's complicated" on the poll, please tell me why. For that matter, tell me why you chose your answer regardless.


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## ThickStemz (Feb 27, 2016)

I chose it's complicated. I also am an atheist... an anti-theist. 

The reason I said it's complicated is becuase I am fully in favor of church state separation but each decision requires a case by case interpretation. 

I like you also favor religious freedom and fully support the rights of the religious to live their life accordingly. 

It's extremely complicated. 

And one has to get into specifics to point this out.


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## Skittles McP (Feb 27, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> I chose it's complicated. I also am an atheist... an anti-theist.
> 
> The reason I said it's complicated is becuase I am fully in favor of church state separation but each decision requires a case by case interpretation.
> 
> ...


Do you have a specific example that you think justifies an accepted religion within government? Or the maybe the policy that involves one facet of the religion?


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## ThickStemz (Feb 27, 2016)

Skittles McP said:


> Do you have a specific example that you think justifies an accepted religion within government? Or the maybe the policy that involves one facet of the religion?


Sure... 

I like this one becuase it forces me to adopt a principal and go against my personal beliefs. 

I saw something on the news recently about a bakery owner in Oregon who was fined over $100k and thereby forced our of business. The reason... 

They had regular customers who were a lesbian couple. They came in often and bought baked goods. 

The lesbian couple decided to get married. Becuase they liked the people at the bakery and their products they came to them for the wedding cake. 

The bakers refused the job becuase they're christians. On a personal level I think this is stupid. 

However, they never denied the lesbian couple products that were put up for sale.

They only refused to participate in a ceramony they didn't find acceptable becuase of their religious beliefs.

I think Oregon forcing them to do that, provide services to a gay wedding is a direct infringement on the first amendment.


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## thepenofareadywriter (Feb 27, 2016)

the religious should also keep their belief to their self...also when going to the dmv you should not be able to use your religion as an excuse to cover your face on your license


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## Skittles McP (Feb 27, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> Sure...
> 
> I like this one becuase it forces me to adopt a principal and go against my personal beliefs.
> 
> ...


For the record, I support gay marriage, but I also support religious freedom.

I do believe their first amendment rights were infringed upon. I'm not 100% familiar with the laws that govern a private business and what reasons they can legally refuse service to someone. I would think that religious reasons would qualify as an exception, as opposed to refusing based on race or something. 
There is a problem there though, and I think this is why the government may have made the decision they did. If they allow this to take place, it opens a loophole for people to refuse service to gay/lesbian people under the false pretense of religious freedom, but really they're just refusing them service because they're gay/lesbian and they don't like that. This is one step away from hate crimes.

Once again though, I do think the government overstepped their boundary here. If all the details you provided are true, then this was an infringement on their first amendment rights. 

As for Separation of Church and State, I think this is an example where it was not followed, thus proving my point. I don't see where your argument FOR State adopting religion comes into play here. If I'm missing the point please point it out.
Maybe there was a miscommunication on either of our parts.

Thanks for you input.


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## Skittles McP (Feb 27, 2016)

thepenofareadywriter said:


> the religious should also keep their belief to their self...also when going to the dmv you should not be able to use your religion as an excuse to cover your face on your license


I agree on the part of the DMV and the license. The point of the license is identification, if you can't be identified by you license then what is the point?


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## vostok (Feb 27, 2016)

Putin made this work

and so will Trump ...

but can you...? lol


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## Corso312 (Feb 27, 2016)

I don't understand how these churches Dodge taxes.. I'd vote for the first person who wants to tax these con artists.


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## GreenLogician (Feb 27, 2016)

Skittles, "I would think that religious reasons would qualify as an exception, as opposed to refusing based on race or something."
--- Those aren't mutually exclusive, if people were allowed to refuse service to homosexual people based on their religious beliefs, then they must also be allowed to refuse service to people of certain races based on their religious beliefs. It would open the flood gates to bigotry - many businesses run by Christians would refuse service to atheists, or other non-Christians etc.


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## ThickStemz (Feb 27, 2016)

Skittles McP said:


> For the record, I support gay marriage, but I also support religious freedom.
> 
> I do believe their first amendment rights were infringed upon. I'm not 100% familiar with the laws that govern a private business and what reasons they can legally refuse service to someone. I would think that religious reasons would qualify as an exception, as opposed to refusing based on race or something.
> There is a problem there though, and I think this is why the government may have made the decision they did. If they allow this to take place, it opens a loophole for people to refuse service to gay/lesbian people under the false pretense of religious freedom, but really they're just refusing them service because they're gay/lesbian and they don't like that. This is one step away from hate crimes.
> ...


Its two sides of the same issue, and its complex in that regard. But it was the first example I could come up with and one that is current.

For the record I support marriage equality also.

Let me try to unpack this a little bit, because people often for some reason fail to see this accurately here, its a subtle distinction but an important one.

Suppose the bakery I had mentioned above had a standard line of products they sold, and would routinely take custom orders also. Any gay person was welcome in their store to purchase their goods. The lesbian couple that sued them initially chose that bakery to go to because they liked their products and had formed a good relationship with them over time. So the bakers were not excluding homosexuals from their business.

I got married once, we hired a baker to bake our cake, they did, then she brought it and served it and was in our photos and everything, it was my understanding this was what the lesbian couple wanted, the bakers involved in their wedding, in all be it a minor roll, but involved just the same.

For such services this is beyond food service, this is more like an artist, and any artist has a right to refuse any request for services that are offered for any reason, as far as I know. Try to hire an artist to paint your portrait, they're welcome to refuse for any reason. The reason behind this is because the work involved is deeply personal in nature.

So back to the bakery, had the lesbians come in wanting something on the cheap, a sheet cake with some special writing on it or a bunch of frosted cup cakes and all that, this would be another issue, the bakers declined to be deeply involved in a ceremony that was against their main stream deeply held religious convictions. It is not the same thing as the old "whites Only" segregation applied to gay and straight.

I do not think this would open up the door for businesses to deny goods and services for normal, run of the mill off the shelf type stuff. It would allow bakers and photographers and others who provide services for weddings the ability to deny taking part in these events, in doing so it would open up room for someone to fill that demand and perform those services for the gay community themselves. That being said, I don't think the majority of business owners out there would turn down the business, but you and I are both just speculating here. So my point is that even if a majority of current providers would deny the new business, it only creates opportunity for others.

The reason I say this is a religion and state issue is because the state here is demanding that religious people do things that go against their religion.


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## ThickStemz (Feb 27, 2016)

GreenLogician said:


> Skittles, "I would think that religious reasons would qualify as an exception, as opposed to refusing based on race or something."
> --- Those aren't mutually exclusive, if people were allowed to refuse service to homosexual people based on their religious beliefs, then they must also be allowed to refuse service to people of certain races based on their religious beliefs. It would open the flood gates to bigotry - many businesses run by Christians would refuse service to atheists, or other non-Christians etc.


I'm only guessing here, but I think you'll see its a good guess. You're bringing up a valid point. But lets look at something the law does all the time, particularly in civil issues. Many things in the US are decided on "Common Law."

When judges look at an issue, and I forget the exact numbers, and exact wording that is used, but this will still get the point across, the judge will base his decision on "what the common law was in England in 1787" I forget even the exact scenarios when this comes into play. But its a settled way to judge those issues.

So even if some church out there started preaching against blacks or muslims or atheist or anyone, the courts already have a mechanism in place to study the religious literature and predominant thought at a certain time to try to make a determination if legal opportunism was going on.


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## GreenLogician (Feb 27, 2016)

"he told them he would not provide a cake for same-sex weddings, the same way he would not provide cakes for pedophiles." - ACLU article.

There's nothing in the bible that prohibits pedophilia, so if the motivation for refusing same-sex couples is the same, as the cakeshop said, it would seem to come down to personal preference, not religious prohibition.
(It's not like the bible says you cannot bake cakes for same-sex weddings either - it just says you should kill a man who lies with another man. It doesn't even address lesbianism, as far as I know.)


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## Skittles McP (Feb 28, 2016)

I think there has to be a middle ground here. Where a business owner can safely refuse service to something that goes against their religious beliefs, as in catering a gay wedding. In the same regard, they can't just refuse service to gay people in general.


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## GreenLogician (Feb 28, 2016)

Here's a really interesting read! The court ruling of a case - the same situation but gay men, not a lesbian couple.
https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/initial_decision_case_no._cr_2013-0008.pdf

e.g.
"At first blush, it may seem reasonable that a private business should be able to refuse service to anyone it chooses. This view, however, fails to take into account the cost to society and the hurt caused to persons who are denied service simply because of who they are. Thus, for well over 100 years, Colorado has prohibited discrimination by businesses that offer goods and services to the public. The most recent version of the public accommodation law, which w as amended in 2008 to add sexual orientation as a protected class, reads in pertinent part:
_It is a discriminatory practice and unlawful for a person, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from, or deny to an individual or a group, because of disability, race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, national origin, or ancestry, the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of a place of public accommodation [...]"
_
"Respondents, however, argue that the refusal does not violate §24-34-601(2) because it was due to their objection to same-sex weddings, not because of Complainants’ sexual orientation. Respondents deny that they hold any animus toward homosexuals or gay couples, and would willingly provide other types of baked goods to Complainants or any other gay customer. On the other hand, Respondents would refuse to provide a wedding cake to a heterosexual customer if it was for a same-sex wedding."

"If Respondents’ argument was correct, it would allow a business that served all races to nonetheless refuse to serve an interracial couple because of the business owner’s bias against interracial marriage. That argument, however, was rejected 30 years ago in Bob Jones Univeristy v. U.S.,461 U.S. 574(1983). In Bob Jones, the Supreme Court held that the IRS properly revoked the university’s tax-exempt status because the university denied admission to interracial couples even though it otherwise admitted all races."


Thickstems suggested earlier in the thread that the issue wasn't just about making a cake, but attending and participating in the wedding ceremony. I haven't seen anything to suggest that yet, in either of the cases I've read about.


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## ttystikk (Feb 28, 2016)

Skittles McP said:


> I think there has to be a middle ground here. Where a business owner can safely refuse service to something that goes against their religious beliefs, as in catering a gay wedding. In the same regard, they can't just refuse service to gay people in general.


The gay couple trying to force unsympathetic outsiders to serve their needs should understand that they might get a cake, they might get catered- but will it really be their best work? That alone should be a deterrent to those who think the situation all the way through.


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## GreenLogician (Feb 28, 2016)

Actually Skittles I'm thinking maybe there is such a middle ground - the law cited in the court case above was about discrimination by refusing the goods or services *of a place of public accommodation*.
It seems possible that a public shopfront would count as such a place, a private wedding ceremony (where caterers work) wouldn't.

Like a shoe buffer with a stall on a public street may be restricted from customer discrimination, but not a house maid who works on private property.


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## Moldy (Feb 28, 2016)

Skittles McP said:


> I myself am an Atheist, but I don't see this as the driving reason behind my question. I firmly believe in freedom of religion, but more than that I believe the "Separation of Church and State" is of the utmost importance. If the government were to adopt a certain religion, it only signifies the beginning of the end of freedom of religion. And there are prime examples of how a government adopting a religion can lead to the government infringing on the rights of other people.
> 
> So why are there so many people out there that want to make our nation a "Christian Nation". Not everyone is Christian, not everyone shares your beliefs and values. Maybe these people are just set in their ways and there is no arguing with them.
> 
> ...


I believe we should just tax the churches when they take a political stand. Other then that there isn't any place for religion in our system otherwise we're just like Iran or some other hole in the ground country.


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## ThickStemz (Feb 28, 2016)

Skittles McP said:


> I think there has to be a middle ground here. Where a business owner can safely refuse service to something that goes against their religious beliefs, as in catering a gay wedding. In the same regard, they can't just refuse service to gay people in general.


That's exactly what I'm saying... and exactly what the people in the bakery v gay wedding story did.

They have a right to our products. Not a right to our personal time.


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## GreenLogician (Feb 28, 2016)

ThickStemz did you find something in a bakery v gay wedding cake story to suggest that the ordeal was over catering?
Or are you going off your own experience with wedding cake makers typically catering or being at the ceremony?

In the particular case I linked above, it didn't seem to hint that catering would be involved.


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## UncleBuck (Feb 28, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> Sure...
> 
> I like this one becuase it forces me to adopt a principal and go against my personal beliefs.
> 
> ...


you got the facts all wrong.

the bigoted bakers were fined a shitload of money for harassing and stalking the lesbian couple, even after they were ordered not to by a judge.

maybe if you bothered getting facts right, you wouldn't come off as stupid as you just did.


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## UncleBuck (Feb 28, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> the bakers declined to be deeply involved in a ceremony that was against their main stream deeply held religious convictions. It is not the same thing as the old "whites Only" segregation applied to gay and straight.


that's exactly the same thing, actually. businesses used to try to claim religious exemption in order to not serve blacks. in both cases, they are trying to use religion to cover their bigotry so they can deny civil rights.

you are not bright at all.

go sit on the sideline and let adults talk. no more spreading your propaganda.


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## UncleBuck (Feb 28, 2016)

GreenLogician said:


> ThickStemz did you find something in a bakery v gay wedding cake story to suggest that the ordeal was over catering?
> Or are you going off your own experience with wedding cake makers typically catering or being at the ceremony?
> 
> In the particular case I linked above, it didn't seem to hint that catering would be involved.


thickstemz made the whole fucking thing up to suit his false narrative.

he's a sock puppet here on a mission to spread bigotry, racism, white supremacy and whatever other shit he can.

facts are not important to him.


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## ThickStemz (Feb 28, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> thickstemz made the whole fucking thing up to suit his false narrative.
> 
> he's a sock puppet here on a mission to spread bigotry, racism, white supremacy and whatever other shit he can.
> 
> facts are not important to him.


No... I used a real life example, took some facts to make a hypothetical. 

I would say that if one party harassed the other it would be the lesbian couple who sued the baking couple instead of finding another baker. 

You've posted no evidence and linked no sources. So I reject your assertions as just erronious.

Refusing to go outside the normal scope of your business to someone's event is not the same thing as refusing to sell them a mass produced item.


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## GreenLogician (Feb 28, 2016)

Did you see my last two messages ThickStems?
I found and linked a source detailing a different (male same-sex) case that was just about refusing to sell them a cake, not about attending the wedding.
Your turn-
Can you post evidence or link sources to support your assertion that the lesbian case was about "Refusing to go outside the normal scope of your business to someone's event"?


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## ThickStemz (Feb 28, 2016)

GreenLogician said:


> Did you see my last two messages ThickStems?
> I found and linked a source detailing a different (male same-sex) case that was just about refusing to sell them a cake, not about attending the wedding.
> Your turn-
> Can you post evidence or link sources to support your assertion that the lesbian case was about "Refusing to go outside the normal scope of your business to someone's event"?


I just now went and looked at your post. I may have had the facts wrong, or incomplete if we're talking specifically about the lesbians in Oregon and their christian bakers.

For purposes of our conversation I think hypothetical scenarios server better to illustrate our point becuase any real life scenario is going to have differing versions of events for political purposes.

I think we might be in more agreement than you think, just emphasizing different things and wording it differently.

Suppose I make wigits. I own a store and display them there. I wouldnt have a right to stop anyone from coming into my store and buying those wigits.

Suppose also that a certian part of my business was going to private functions and setting up my wigits for people's parties. Suppose that my wigits are popular at birthday parties, barmitzva, weddings, and any festive occasion.

I think it would be within my right to decline to go to any of these events. Even if it is because of their race or sexual orientation. I don't believe in forcing people to go where they're uncomfortable.

Suppose also that sometimes people wanted to pick up a wigit and have me decorate it specially for them and they would then take it and use.... this gets more fuzzy.

I know plenty of tattoo artists who refuse to do swastikas and white power stuff. They turn down requests often.

So what if it is as simple as writing "congrats kim and sarah" on a wedding theme wigit and they would pick it up at my store. I don't think I have the right to turn that down.

Basically the more personally involved the business person has to be the more room I give them to decline the business.


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## Skittles McP (Feb 29, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> thickstemz made the whole fucking thing up to suit his false narrative.
> 
> he's a sock puppet here on a mission to spread bigotry, racism, white supremacy and whatever other shit he can.
> 
> facts are not important to him.


I fall on the side of facts, and while ThickStemz has not provided any himself, neither have you in the way of your accusations. 
So far I haven't seen anyone address the even in Oregon to which he originally referred to. Everyone has just cited other examples. 
You're calling him a "sock puppet on a mission to spread bigotry, racism, white supremacy, and whatever other shit he can". While YOU and some others might be able to construe some of what he has said as "bigotry", there certainly hasn't been any notion of racism or white supremacy. 

So if you're so focused on facts UncleBuck, why don't you make sure what you're saying isn't complete subjective, conjecture-garbage before you go blasting someone else.


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## Skittles McP (Feb 29, 2016)

Besides, this is an argument for or against Separation of Church and State.


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## 6ohMax (Feb 29, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> thickstemz made the whole fucking thing up to suit his false narrative.
> 
> he's a sock puppet here on a mission to spread bigotry, racism, white supremacy and whatever other shit he can.
> 
> facts are not important to him.



Good Morning UncleBuck, why does everyone have to be a sock puppet to you. It takes one to know one, right?


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## SSG_Ranger (Feb 29, 2016)

I live in Utah....you dont know how important the separation of church and state is until you live here.

LDS kids get time off school each and every day from middle school on to attend LDS "Seminary". There are seminaries attached to every public school...middle schools, High Schools and Colleges. There is nothing similar offered to students of any other belief system.

When measures are considered in our legislature (and even at the county and city levels in many cases) those measures will not pass unless the "church" (LDS) approves of or is indifferent. This last month our medical marijuana bill was doomed as soon as the LDS church came out against it. It was changed, based solely on the churches opposition to it.

When applying for a job at the local PUBLIC college, I was asked "What ward do you belong to?" (ie, wards are the local level congregations). When I complained, I was told "They only asked to be friendly"

I can tell you right now that whoever is the next republican candidate, will recieve the electoral votes for Utah. It does not matter who it is, they will win Utah, because the church votes as a block the straight republican ticket here.


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## Cyrus420 (Mar 7, 2016)

The separation of Church and State is necessary to prevent a government or governing body from become corrupted through theistic influence. 

In a world where many different spiritual/religious beliefs are held it's only fair that the body that rules them not be beholden to any one particular way of thinking. In this ideal world the government and it's controllers would use logic and reasoning for many of their decisions. 

Sadly it's not a perfect world and many people in our government allow their personal religious convictions to sway their decisions on matters that affect thousands of others who may not share their same religious belief.

See how this is a bad thing, ya'll?


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## KryptoBud (Mar 13, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> Sure...
> 
> I like this one becuase it forces me to adopt a principal and go against my personal beliefs.
> 
> ...


Its amazing how Christian folks can be against gay marriage and refuse service to people based on sexual preference but turn a blind eye to the kid fucking associated with the "church"


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## ThickStemz (Mar 13, 2016)

KryptoBud said:


> Its amazing how Christian folks can be against gay marriage and refuse service to people based on sexual preference but turn a blind eye to the kid fucking associated with the "church"


If that comment was directed at me you should know I'm a christ bashing atheist.

And I still support the right of christians to not participate in gay weddings. Thus isn't a reactionary response by christians. They've always hated gays. I'll fight them in most aspects of this, but I wouldn't compel them to bake a cake for two dudes.


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## KryptoBud (Mar 13, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> If that comment was directed at me you should know I'm a christ bashing atheist.
> 
> And I still support the right of christians to not participate in gay weddings. Thus isn't a reactionary response by christians. They've always hated gays. I'll fight them in most aspects of this, but I wouldn't compel them to bake a cake for two dudes.


It wasn't aimed at you. it was aimed at religious hypocrites you just had the subject in your post.


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## ThickStemz (Mar 13, 2016)

KryptoBud said:


> It wasn't aimed at you. it was aimed at religious hypocrites you just had the subject in your post.


They're not hypocrites. They have a different outlook on life. Under the assumptions they make what they do is consistent with their core beliefs. 

That doesn't make them hypocritical.


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## KryptoBud (Mar 13, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> They're not hypocrites. They have a different outlook on life. Under the assumptions they make what they do is consistent with their core beliefs.
> 
> That doesn't make them hypocritical.


If their core belief is two men shouldn't marry that's fine, but how can they support a business riddled with pedophilia? Two men shouldn't engage in sexual acts, but a man and a boy's ok? Sounds logical to you?

If businesses don't want to support or supply gay marriage they shouldn't have to but make it known. Put a sign in the window on the menu where ever stating no gays, whites, blacks, jews, Mexicans, fat people, Muslims, or whatever else so people know by doing business there they're supporting racicsts, bigots, and homophobes. Problem solved,


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## ThickStemz (Mar 13, 2016)

They don't deny homosexuals the ability to come in and buy off the shelf items. They simply decline special commissions to do gay events. That's different from


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## UncleBuck (Mar 13, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> No... I used a real life example


no you didn't. you got the facts completely wrong.



ThickStemz said:


> if one party harassed the other it would be the lesbian couple who sued the baking couple


so going to a store that sells cakes, and asking to buy a cake, is harassment?

but literally stalking a couple, and giving out all of their personal information to angry bigots on the internet is not?

you are not good at trolling, and you are in fact quite stupid.


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## UncleBuck (Mar 13, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> I may have had the facts wrong


don't worry, you did.



ThickStemz said:


> I know plenty of tattoo artists who refuse to do swastikas and white power stuff. They turn down requests often.


i thought you sold timeshares. now you hang around tattoo shops frequented by neo-nazis?

this just gets more and more believable.


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## UncleBuck (Mar 13, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> They don't deny homosexuals the ability to come in and buy off the shelf items. They simply decline special commissions to do gay events. That's different from


http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2015/03/halfway_through_sweet_cakes_by.html

no. 

you have the facts wrong.

you are lying.

lying is what morons with weak cases do.

you bigot.


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## KryptoBud (Mar 13, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> They don't deny homosexuals the ability to come in and buy off the shelf items. They simply decline special commissions to do gay events. That's different from


Not really, but if that's their choice they should have that right. I think its discrimination covered up with "religious belief" I think they should have to let it be known what is not acceptable to them. Like when you walk into a bar or night club they have signs under 21 not permitted. So let them acknowledge what their god isn't down with the fags/dikes and let their customers decide if that's a business they want to support. I don't think there would be a whole lotta signs made, I don't think they'd be in business long.


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## ThickStemz (Mar 13, 2016)

KryptoBud said:


> Not really, but if that's their choice they should have that right. I think its discrimination covered up with "religious belief" I think they should have to let it be known what is not acceptable to them. Like when you walk into a bar or night club they have signs under 21 not permitted. So let them acknowledge what their god isn't down with the fags/dikes and let their customers decide if that's a business they want to support. I don't think there would be a whole lotta signs made, I don't think they'd be in business long.


Should we make the jews wear yellow stars too?

When it comes to off site catering I'm in favor of granting wide leeway. 

If it's an in store item commonly in stock then no discrimination. 

But if you have to be part of the event then it should be at will. Any reason or no reason at all.


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## UncleBuck (Mar 13, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> But if you have to be part of the event then it should be at will. Any reason or no reason at all.


you are completely fabricating that part.


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## ThickStemz (Mar 13, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> you are completely fabricating that part.


It's a goddamn hypothetical you moron.


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## UncleBuck (Mar 13, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> It's a goddamn hypothetical you moron.


nope. 

you can try to revise history, and lie, and spin and chase your tail, but here is what you said:



ThickStemz said:


> I saw something on the news recently about a bakery owner in Oregon who was fined over $100k and thereby forced our of business. The reason...
> 
> They had regular customers who were a lesbian couple. They came in often and bought baked goods.
> 
> ...


you did not pose this as a hypothetical, as you can see.

you are simply a bad liar.


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## ThickStemz (Mar 13, 2016)

That is from days ago and in a completely different conversation. 

I was talking to two different people. 

And even in that case there was enough personal involvement where it still wouldn't be fabrication. 

Idk anyone who picks up their own wedding cake. It is usually aranged to be delivered, sliced and served.


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## UncleBuck (Mar 13, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> That is from days ago and in a completely different conversation.
> 
> I was talking to two different people.
> 
> ...


sorry you git caught lying.

the underlines are a nice touch though.


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## ThickStemz (Mar 13, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> sorry you git caught lying.
> 
> the underlines are a nice touch though.


Accidentally hit underline. 

If you've noticed I don't speak to you often. It's nothing to do with our disagreementon most issues.

At least pada and Fogdog can have a good faith conversation. Grow up man. You're the least mature human I've met in a long time.


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## ttystikk (Mar 13, 2016)

SSG_Ranger said:


> I live in Utah....you dont know how important the separation of church and state is until you live here.
> 
> LDS kids get time off school each and every day from middle school on to attend LDS "Seminary".  There are seminaries attached to every public school...middle schools, High Schools and Colleges. There is nothing similar offered to students of any other belief system.
> 
> ...


I used to live in Grand Junction. I could feel their repressive influence everywhere. 

It isn't okay just because it's 'our' religion. The Constitution applies to everyone equally and must be enforced everywhere, equally. 

Carving out exceptions for special interests has gotten this country INTO the mess we're in, exactly because we've abandoned any semblance of fair or level playing fields.


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## KryptoBud (Mar 14, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> Should we make the jews wear yellow stars too?
> 
> When it comes to off site catering I'm in favor of granting wide leeway.
> 
> ...


I still think its discrimination, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Personally I don't know why people get married anyway. What purpose does it serve? If anyone has any logical reasons please share them. Its a religious ceremony. that you must have before you can have sex. Religious people must be horny as fuck. They cant wait to get married, and where do 90% of weddings take place.... Pretty good business plan for the church and its tax free. That's my theory albeit a little far fetched, But we are talking about religion after all.
People that think theres a separation of church and state are delusional. all you have to do is look at some of laws in this country. Gay marriage, recreational drugs, abortion, prostitution, doctor assisted suicide just to name a few. Why do we have laws that tell consenting adults that aren't hurting anybody what they can and cant do to their body?
I think religion is a cancer the earth would be a better place without. Also don't forget in god we trust on every dollar you've ever spent.


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## ThickStemz (Mar 14, 2016)

KryptoBud said:


> I still think its discrimination, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
> Personally I don't know why people get married anyway. What purpose does it serve? If anyone has any logical reasons please share them. Its a religious ceremony. that you must have before you can have sex. Religious people must be horny as fuck. They cant wait to get married, and where do 90% of weddings take place.... Pretty good business plan for the church and its tax free. That's my theory albeit a little far fetched, But we are talking about religion after all.
> People that think theres a separation of church and state are delusional. all you have to do is look at some of laws in this country. Gay marriage, recreational drugs, abortion, prostitution, doctor assisted suicide just to name a few. Why do we have laws that tell consenting adults that aren't hurting anybody what they can and cant do to their body?
> I think religion is a cancer the earth would be a better place without. Also don't forget in god we trust on every dollar you've ever spent.


Separation of church and state means something different to most people than the constitution seems to mean. Firsrly, it isn't expressly stated that they should be separate in the constitution beyond saying congrease should make no law regarding an establishment of religion. 

This was to prevent a government funded church. An official one. 

But it doesn't seem to limit the people of a church influencing a government with what secular laws we pass.


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## Heisenberg (Mar 20, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> thickstemz made the whole fucking thing up to suit his false narrative.
> 
> he's a sock puppet here on a mission to spread bigotry, racism, white supremacy and whatever other shit he can.
> 
> facts are not important to him.



Wow Buck, this is what you give us? Conspiracy, cynicism, ad hominems? After all these years of arguing on here I would have expected you to get better at it, not worse. There are many nuances to this issue and many juicy bits you could have ripped apart from this particular argument, yet you reach for the typical go-to arguments we see from the likes of anti-vaxxers and Food Babe?

I was never fond of your particular argument style, despite agreeing with you on nearly every issue, but I think different styles are necessary to get across points to a diverse audience. There needs to be an asshole telling it like it is. But if this post is any indication, you seem to have gotten lazy and unimaginative.


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## Skittles McP (Mar 22, 2016)

KryptoBud said:


> I still think its discrimination, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
> Personally I don't know why people get married anyway. What purpose does it serve? If anyone has any logical reasons please share them. Its a religious ceremony. that you must have before you can have sex. Religious people must be horny as fuck. They cant wait to get married, and where do 90% of weddings take place.... Pretty good business plan for the church and its tax free. That's my theory albeit a little far fetched, But we are talking about religion after all.
> People that think theres a separation of church and state are delusional. all you have to do is look at some of laws in this country. Gay marriage, recreational drugs, abortion, prostitution, doctor assisted suicide just to name a few. Why do we have laws that tell consenting adults that aren't hurting anybody what they can and cant do to their body?
> I think religion is a cancer the earth would be a better place without. Also don't forget in god we trust on every dollar you've ever spent.


Marriage wasn't invented by religion. It served a civil purpose throughout history and only gained traction as the modern "Religious ceremony" when the Catholic church got involved. Marriage isn't inherently a religious ceremony.


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## Olive Drab Green (Mar 22, 2016)

Hail, Satan.


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## ky man (Apr 13, 2016)

Well the bible says GOD made adam and eva (I know that's not spelled rite) but if we where made to screw the same sex GOD would have said adam and steve.JMO But I don't see how 2 men or 2 ladys could show there face in publick with out shame and I also belive that THE GAYs ARE GOING STRAIT TO HELL AT THE END OF TIME.jmo and that's how I was raised.and I will go to my grave beliving that.If every one was gay there would be no new kids born and man would just die out.Gays jmo are sick people in the head.TELL ME Why would 2 men wount shit on there dicks??Iam dun with this sick post..ky


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## ky man (Apr 13, 2016)

KryptoBud said:


> Not really, but if that's their choice they should have that right. I think its discrimination covered up with "religious belief" I think they should have to let it be known what is not acceptable to them. Like when you walk into a bar or night club they have signs under 21 not permitted. So let them acknowledge what their god isn't down with the fags/dikes and let their customers decide if that's a business they want to support. I don't think there would be a whole lotta signs made, I don't think they'd be in business long.


There is more strait people in this world then there is fags_dikes..............Guess witch ones meaning all of them are going strait to hell at the end of time.You said I don't think theyd be in business long...That's where you are wrong I think onley 3 percent of people or less are fags and dikes in this world...jmo...ky


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## mean.green (Apr 13, 2016)

ky man said:


> Well the bible says GOD made adam and eva (I know that's not spelled rite) but if we where made to screw the same sex GOD would have said adam and steve.JMO But I don't see how 2 men or 2 ladys could show there face in publick with out shame and I also belive that THE GAYs ARE GOING STRAIT TO HELL AT THE END OF TIME.jmo and that's how I was raised.and I will go to my grave beliving that.If every one was gay there would be no new kids born and man would just die out.Gays jmo are sick people in the head.TELL ME Why would 2 men wount shit on there dicks??Iam dun with this sick post..ky


 We live in a world where we are running out of resources because our world is massively populated. It would take a lot more than 3% of gay people to make a dent in the population... besides gay people can adopt children that would otherwise sit in homeless shelters.

Everything in this world has a purpose... 

Also we have a separation of church and state for a reason. People cannot push their morals or beliefs on someone else. Just because you believe they are going to hell, doesn't mean that being gay is wrong. Gay people have a purpose: adopting children and reducing the over-population. Straight people, however, continue to hurt the earth by increasing the population. Maybe we could use some more gays....

IF god said that being gay is wrong, that was in another time (sodom and gomorrah).
Since then a lot has changed.

Marriage before god is another issue that I don't care to discuss. Personally, I think it should be up to the religious official who does the marriage. There will always be the few hardcore believers who see gay's as blasphemous. Just find a minister willing to marry gays. But I think churches should be treated like businesses, they should not be able to refuse service to anyone (my opinion).

I don't normally contribute to discussing beliefs in a public matter, however I feel that KY Man was a little harsh due his own ignorance. I just wanted to contribute my 2 cents.... If you disagree with me then its no big deal!!


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## Skittles McP (Apr 13, 2016)

ky man said:


> Well the bible says GOD made adam and eva (I know that's not spelled rite) but if we where made to screw the same sex GOD would have said adam and steve.JMO But I don't see how 2 men or 2 ladys could show there face in publick with out shame and I also belive that THE GAYs ARE GOING STRAIT TO HELL AT THE END OF TIME.jmo and that's how I was raised.and I will go to my grave beliving that.If every one was gay there would be no new kids born and man would just die out.Gays jmo are sick people in the head.TELL ME Why would 2 men wount shit on there dicks??Iam dun with this sick post..ky


Ky I think the problem you're having is that you think everyone is held to the same standard you hold yourself too. First off, not everyone is Christian. So why should the rest of the world who doesn't follow Christianity, all 6 billion of them, have to follow the rules of a religion they don't believe in? You are trying to enforce your own ideals and beliefs on others. Christianity doesn't get to decide everyone's lives for them. Religion isn't the law, it's a religion...


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## UncleBuck (Apr 13, 2016)

ky man said:


> Well the bible says GOD made adam and eva (I know that's not spelled rite) but if we where made to screw the same sex GOD would have said adam and steve.JMO But I don't see how 2 men or 2 ladys could show there face in publick with out shame and I also belive that THE GAYs ARE GOING STRAIT TO HELL AT THE END OF TIME.jmo and that's how I was raised.and I will go to my grave beliving that.If every one was gay there would be no new kids born and man would just die out.Gays jmo are sick people in the head.TELL ME Why would 2 men wount shit on there dicks??Iam dun with this sick post..ky


ya gotta blame straight people for this shit. if they didn't have any kids, there would be no gay people.


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## Heisenberg (Apr 14, 2016)

ky man said:


> TELL ME Why would 2 men wount shit on there dicks??Iam dun with this sick post..ky


You could ask straight men the same thing, as many enjoy anal sex. Women have buttholes too.

And just an FYI, saying "that's how I was raised" is not a defense for any idea. It merely tells us that your parents were as bigoted as you. It says that not only do you have terrible ideas, but that they are not even something you came up with yourself. You were told what to think, which doesn't really help your case.


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## ky man (Apr 14, 2016)

no it just tells me my parents had comen cence. it is not natural for men to fuck men. my parents where not bigotes neather am i.I just fell people like men with men has a brain problem.I also don't think two men should raise no children to fuck up there minds.fags are sick people.AND YES women do have buttholes and if she wounts it in her butthole I will give it to her but men should never do that to a nother man.IF every man fucked men man would die out and the world would not excest at least with no people in the world.That is why GOD mad adam and eva not adam and steve.I know I can spell for shit but that will not send me to hell.But gay men will go strait to hell.jmo and i will not chang my mind for no one..GOD did not chang his mind GOD SAID being gay was wrong AND GOD HAS NEVER BEEN WRONG AND HE DID NOT CHANG HIS MIND AND GOD NEVER WILL.That is why GOD IS GOD.


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## Heisenberg (Apr 14, 2016)

ky man said:


> no it just tells me my parents had comen cence. it is not natural for men to fuck men. my parents where not bigotes neather am i.I just fell people like men with men has a brain problem.I also don't think two men should raise no children to fuck up there minds.fags are sick people.AND YES women do have buttholes and if she wounts it in her butthole I will give it to her but men should never do that to a nother man.IF every man fucked men man would die out and the world would not excest at least with no people in the world.That is why GOD mad adam and eva not adam and steve.I know I can spell for shit but that will not send me to hell.But gay men will go strait to hell.jmo and i will not chang my mind for no one..GOD did not chang his mind GOD SAID being gay was wrong AND GOD HAS NEVER BEEN WRONG AND HE DID NOT CHANG HIS MIND AND GOD NEVER WILL.That is why GOD IS GOD.


Nothing in this post actually demonstrates that you or your parents aren't bigots. I'm afraid it takes more than just saying "nu uh" and then repeating the same bigoted shit you've already said before. The reason you cannot spell is the same reason you cannot see yourself as a hypocrite and a bigot - you don't know how to think. 

It's also one of the weakest positions I've ever seen anyone take. I don't have anal sex because I don't want to. But what you've told us is that, if God did say "Adam and Steve," then it would be okay and you would be plowing gay ass all day long because you are afraid of hell. Where the rest of us have preferences and morals, you have an empty mind that is only capable of believing and parroting ideas that someone else put there.

It's not unfair for me to say these things about you, because you have told us them yourself. You brought your parents into it when you say you were raised this way. You brought up anal sex and said it was disgusting before telling us you'd have it anyway. You brought the rope, put it around your own neck, and hung yourself.

What a great job your parents and the bible have done to prepare you for the world. You can't even agree with yourself.


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## Skittles McP (Apr 14, 2016)

I mean all it takes is looking at his spelling, grammar, punctuation, and really just the tenuous grasp of the English language as a whole, to see how smart this guy is.


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## Unclebaldrick (Apr 14, 2016)

Corso312 said:


> I don't understand how these churches Dodge taxes.. I'd vote for the first person who wants to tax these con artists.


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## Skittles McP (Apr 14, 2016)

Heisenberg said:


> Nothing in this post actually demonstrates that you or your parents aren't bigots. I'm afraid it takes more than just saying "nu uh" and then repeating the same bigoted shit you've already said before. The reason you cannot spell is the same reason you cannot see yourself as a hypocrite and a bigot - you don't know how to think.
> 
> It's also one of the weakest positions I've ever seen anyone take. I don't have anal sex because I don't want to. But what you've told us is that, if God did say "Adam and Steve," then it would be okay and you would be plowing gay ass all day long because you are afraid of hell. Where the rest of us have preferences and morals, you have an empty mind that is only capable of believing and parroting ideas that someone else put there.
> 
> ...


"Plowing gay ass all day long" lmao


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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 14, 2016)

Why don't any of you mention how "bigoted" muslims are toward gays? if you think a muslim business would be baking a cake for a gay couple, you might as well just believe they'll be catering the same wedding with pulled pork sandwiches.

america was founded to escape the church of england, a church government system. however, it was founded on biblical principles. the 10 commandments were the foundation of the constitution. The constitution is not a "living" document that changes as time goes on, but is a set of fundamental principles that apply now as they did then to protect the citizens from the government and the tyrants that run it.


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## Skittles McP (Apr 14, 2016)

This discussion has gotten way off topic. But you bring up a great point that relates back to the original message of this thread. The fact that Muslims don't tolerate gays is just as bad as Christians doing it. This is why the separation of church and state is so important. ANY Religion shouldn't have a say in the lives of an entire country. Just because you believe in something doesn't mean everyone else has to believe in it as well.


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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 14, 2016)

Skittles McP said:


> This discussion has gotten way off topic. But you bring up a great point that relates back to the original message of this thread. The fact that Muslims don't tolerate gays is just as bad as Christians doing it. This is why the separation of church and state is so important. ANY Religion shouldn't have a say in the lives of an entire country. Just because you believe in something doesn't mean everyone else has to believe in it as well.


But why do you get to decide whether or not supporting gays and their idea of their own lifestyle is good or bad? It's not like the bigotry of before where people segregated others based on the pigment of their skin or the shape of their eyes; this is a lifestyle choice. Does a christian pastor have to do a muslim wedding?


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## Skittles McP (Apr 14, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> But why do you get to decide whether or not supporting gays and their idea of their own lifestyle is good or bad? It's not like the bigotry of before where people segregated others based on the pigment of their skin or the shape of their eyes; this is a lifestyle choice. Does a christian pastor have to do a muslim wedding?


Well a Muslim couple wouldn't hire a Christian pastor to perform their ceremony...
But anyway, the point isn't whether or not it's good or bad, the point is that one religion doesn't get to dictate how others live their lives. That's the point of separation of church and state, to be impartial and therefore fair to everyone. I am at the same time a proponent of religious freedom. I think anything related to religious services should be at the discretion of a business owner. If a pastor doesn't want to marry a gay couple because of religious reasons that's fine. If a bakery owner doesn't want to make a cake for a gay wedding because of their religious beliefs that's fine. But a sporting goods store can't deny service based on religious beliefs just like a restaurant can't. Those things have nothing to do with a wedding or religion at all. In those cases the owner of store operator would just be discriminating.


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## KryptoBud (Apr 14, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> Why don't any of you mention how "bigoted" muslims are toward gays? if you think a muslim business would be baking a cake for a gay couple, you might as well just believe they'll be catering the same wedding with pulled pork sandwiches.The constitution has been changed 33 times.
> 
> america was founded to escape the church of england, a church government system. however, it was founded on biblical principles. the 10 commandments were the foundation of the constitution. The constitution is not a "living" document that changes as time goes on, but is a set of fundamental principles that apply now as they did then to protect the citizens from the government and the tyrants that run it.


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## abalonehx (Apr 14, 2016)




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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 14, 2016)

Skittles McP said:


> *Well a Muslim couple wouldn't hire a Christian pastor to perform their ceremony...*
> But anyway, the point isn't whether or not it's good or bad, the point is that one religion doesn't get to dictate how others live their lives. That's the point of separation of church and state, to be impartial and therefore fair to everyone. I am at the same time a proponent of religious freedom. I think anything related to religious services should be at the discretion of a business owner. If a pastor doesn't want to marry a gay couple because of religious reasons that's fine. If a bakery owner doesn't want to make a cake for a gay wedding because of their religious beliefs that's fine. But a sporting goods store can't deny service based on religious beliefs just like a restaurant can't. Those things have nothing to do with a wedding or religion at all. In those cases the owner of store operator would just be discriminating.


A gay couple wouldn't hire a christian baker to help perform their gay marriage celebration...


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## Skittles McP (Apr 14, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> A gay couple wouldn't hire a christian baker to help perform their gay marriage celebration...


If they're Christian they would. Not all sects, or even individual churches, of Christianity follow the belief that gay people can't get married.


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## Skittles McP (Apr 14, 2016)

It's one interpretation of the religion


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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 14, 2016)

Skittles McP said:


> It's one interpretation of the religion


Now we are starting to step in to religious studies, my favorite!

There are many references in the new testament and old testament that says god does not approve of gay marriage and people who follow him aren't supposed to partake. Just because some "christians" and "churches" do approve and even marry gay couples, doesn't mean that it's what god commands in the bible.

I guess this is where it gets tricky. I study the bible every day and find that 99.9% of churches don't care what the bible says as a whole, but rather picks and chooses which parts they want to follow and therefore have their own interpretations. However, the bible says clearly that it is of not of anyone's private interpretation. There is a harmony to the word of god that helps the student understand the symbolism and meaning of certain things. Some things aren't clearly on the surface, while others clearly are. 

This is one of the instances where it is clearly stated in the bible that god isn't for. New and old testament. I can believe whatever i want, right or wrong. Christianity is not about what the people believe, but what god believes and states in his word.


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## Skittles McP (Apr 14, 2016)

Well like I said, that is one interpretation. Unfortunately for your argument not everyone follows that belief. A lot of people who identify as Christian don't follow the bible to the word, but instead interpret it in their own way. Does that make them wrong? Maybe in your eyes. 
I will continue to win this debate for the simple fact that everything you say is just your belief. Religion doesn't offer a lot in the way of facts. 
I have always believed in this bit of wisdom I heard when I was younger. It goes, "You can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt other people, but as soon as you start hurting others it's no longer okay". This sentiment goes along perfectly with religion. You can believe in whatever you want, no one is saying you can't live your life according to "God's word". But you can't impart those same rules onto others if they aren't willing.


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## UncleBuck (Apr 14, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> Why don't any of you mention how "bigoted" muslims are toward gays?


i haven't seen any bigoted muslims on rollitup. there have been three or four seld-labeled muslims that i have seen, none of them harbored any hatred towards gays. unlike you.

take some balls to criticize others for that which you are guilty of, bible thumper.


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## reddan1981 (Apr 15, 2016)

Church and state are connected in a manner that is difficult to explain. A percentage of ALL taxes (I think 40%) goes via uk to Vatican. The official rhetoric is that church and state are separate, we possibly couldn't have democracy if it wasn't so, right? Well we haven't got democracy and never have.


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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 15, 2016)

Skittles McP said:


> Well like I said, that is one interpretation. Unfortunately for your argument not everyone follows that belief. A lot of people who identify as Christian don't follow the bible to the word, but instead interpret it in their own way. Does that make them wrong? Maybe in your eyes.
> I will continue to win this debate for the simple fact that everything you say is just your belief. Religion doesn't offer a lot in the way of facts.
> I have always believed in this bit of wisdom I heard when I was younger. It goes, "You can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt other people, but as soon as you start hurting others it's no longer okay". This sentiment goes along perfectly with religion. You can believe in whatever you want, no one is saying you can't live your life according to "God's word". But you can't impart those same rules onto others if they aren't willing.


The bit of wisdom you are referring to there is in the 10 commandments. It says "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Or maybe it's from Romans: "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour".

You don't understand christianity if you think that the people who say you don't need the bible are still christians. You can't claim to follow the god of the bible and not do what the bible says. That's called being a hypocrite, something jesus clearly condemned. You know, the son of god. But you can argue all you want that it's just 'my belief' if that makes you feel like you "won this argument".

However, you are way too biblically illiterate to try to say anything about christianity and following the bible.

"Why do you say you love me and not do the things i say?"- Jesus
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
"Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with _their_ lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching _as_ doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

Thanks for keeping the conversation "above the belt". Seems like it's hard for people to do that around here when religion is discussed.


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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 15, 2016)

Oh yeah, forgot this one: (it's not jesus but a part of the "New Testament" written towards a teenager names Timothy who accompanied Paul during the mission god sent him upon to allow gentiles to hear the word of god)

* 2 Timothy 2:15King James Version (KJV)*
15 *Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.*


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## KryptoBud (Apr 15, 2016)

Let me ask you a question, why does it take a lifetime of bible study and church to read and understand stories that were written thousands of years ago? How long does it take to understand it? You could be a brain surgeon in about a decade. In thousands of years no one has figured out a shortened version or cliff notes5? Or is that what all the discussion and study is about what rules apply today? If you went back 50 years and told your peeps at the church you were involved in marijuana cultivation would it be ok as long as you had some change when the donation plate came around?


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## ky man (Apr 15, 2016)

muslims also teach kill all infadeal its in there coran{THERE BIBLE}.thats not spelled rite..you people can belive what ever you like it don't hurt me one bit.But I would say hell is a very hot place to burn.when GOD comes to get his people.this is my last post on this thread..


UncleBuck said:


> i haven't seen any bigoted muslims on rollitup. there have been three or four seld-labeled muslims that i have seen, none of them harbored any hatred towards gays. unlike you.
> 
> take some balls to criticize others for that which you are guilty of, bible thumper.


NO THE MUSLIMS are good people they just WOUNT TO CUT YOUR HEADS OFF.So be good to them.


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## Cut.Throat. (Apr 15, 2016)

ky man said:


> muslims also teach kill all infadeal its in there coran{THERE BIBLE}.thats not spelled rite..you people can belive what ever you like it don't hurt me one bit.But I would say hell is a very hot place to burn.when GOD comes to get his people.this is my last post on this thread..
> NO THE MUSLIMS are good people they just WOUNT TO CUT YOUR HEADS OFF.So be good to them.


You people and your imaginary friends. Makes me laugh but also sad at the same time.


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## Skittles McP (Apr 15, 2016)

Cut.Throat. said:


> You people and your imaginary friends. Makes me laugh but also sad at the same time.


Sadly I had to think about that for a second, but when it clicked I got a good laugh.


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## Wilderb (Apr 22, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> Why don't any of you mention how "bigoted" muslims are toward gays? if you think a muslim business would be baking a cake for a gay couple, you might as well just believe they'll be catering the same wedding with pulled pork sandwiches.
> 
> america was founded to escape the church of england, a church government system. however, it was founded on biblical principles. the 10 commandments were the foundation of the constitution. The constitution is not a "living" document that changes as time goes on, but is a set of fundamental principles that apply now as they did then to protect the citizens from the government and the tyrants that run it.


If the Constitution is based on the ten commandments, how come only two are law? Thou shall not steal and Thou shall not murder.


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## KryptoBud (Apr 23, 2016)

Wilderb said:


> If the Constitution is based on the ten commandments, how come only two are law? Thou shall not steal and Thou shall not murder.


Religion has an easy out for any question posed to its idiots "interpretation" They have a unique ability to twist and turn "gods rules" or whatever one wants to calleth them, to fit their needs today. Ask a bible thumper if smoking weed is a sin, and you'll hear I don't smoke for pleasure I use it for medical reasons so i can worship god better or some bullshit like that.


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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 23, 2016)

KryptoBud said:


> Religion has an easy out for any question posed to its idiots "interpretation" They have a unique ability to twist and turn "gods rules" or whatever one wants to calleth them, to fit their needs today. Ask a bible thumper if smoking weed is a sin, and you'll hear I don't smoke for pleasure I use it for medical reasons so i can worship god better or some bullshit like that.


Where in the bible does it say smoking weed is a sin? You must not know anyone who knows the bible at all, just your typical sunday christians (wrong day according to the 10 commandments). There is no verse in the bible that says "thou shalt not enjoy pleasure". So good luck proving this point.


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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 23, 2016)

Wilderb said:


> If the Constitution is based on the ten commandments, how come only two are law? Thou shall not steal and Thou shall not murder.


Maybe you should study more about some of what the forefathers said before and after creating the constitution. I'm not going to do your homework for you.


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## Rrog (Apr 23, 2016)

Bedtime stories is all. But they get outta paying taxes


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## KryptoBud (Apr 23, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> Where in the bible does it say smoking weed is a sin? You must not know anyone who knows the bible at all, just your typical sunday christians (wrong day according to the 10 commandments). There is no verse in the bible that says "thou shalt not enjoy pleasure". So good luck proving this point.


Thank you for proving my point for me. It doesn't mention marijuana by name at all does it? How about smoking crack or shooting heroin? Must be ok then. Pornography no problem right? I got one for ya homosexuality thats a sin unless its between man and boy but we'll pretend that doesn't happen you folks are good at that. I did actually know many people who knew the bible maybe better than you.


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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 23, 2016)

I'm not a catholic, they don't go by the bible - they go by their own book called the Catechism. Comparing what some of those priests did is like saying all football players support wife-beating because that guy from the ravens did it. Just to be completely clear, the bible is not a supporter of NAMBLA.


Although marijuana may not be mentioned by name, it is a very different thing to use marijuana vs. crack or heroin. Marijuana is not addicitive, it's not a gateway drug, and all that other bullshit people try to say about it. However, crack and heroin are and they become more of a lifestyle than anything. It's very hard to have a relationship with god when you are pursuing your next time banging some speedballs. God didn't make us too stupid to understand that kind of basic thing.


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## Wilderb (Apr 23, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> I'm not a catholic, they don't go by the bible - they go by their own book called the Catechism. Comparing what some of those priests did is like saying all football players support wife-beating because that guy from the ravens did it. Just to be completely clear, the bible is not a supporter of NAMBLA.
> 
> 
> Although marijuana may not be mentioned by name, it is a very different thing to use marijuana vs. crack or heroin. Marijuana is not addicitive, it's not a gateway drug, and all that other bullshit people try to say about it. However, crack and heroin are and they become more of a lifestyle than anything. It's very hard to have a relationship with god when you are pursuing your next time banging some speedballs. God didn't make us too stupid to understand that kind of basic thing.


Any by the bible you mean the one that has been translated and rewritten how many times? You can come up with any dumshit thing you want and support it with some cherry picked passage.


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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 23, 2016)

Wilderb said:


> Any by the bible you mean the one that has been translated and rewritten how many times? You can come up with any dumshit thing you want and support it with some cherry picked passage.


you're right, it's much harder to use the whole book in context. Why do you think true bible thumpers are so hard to find?


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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 23, 2016)

Wilderb said:


> Any by the bible you mean the one that has been translated and rewritten how many times? You can come up with any dumshit thing you want and support it with some cherry picked passage.


and most of it was transliterated, too. if you even know what that means


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## KryptoBud (Apr 23, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> I'm not a catholic, they don't go by the bible - they go by their own book called the Catechism. Comparing what some of those priests did is like saying all football players support wife-beating because that guy from the ravens did it. Just to be completely clear, the bible is not a supporter of NAMBLA.
> 
> 
> Although marijuana may not be mentioned by name, it is a very different thing to use marijuana vs. crack or heroin. Marijuana is not addicitive, it's not a gateway drug, and all that other bullshit people try to say about it. However, crack and heroin are and they become more of a lifestyle than anything. It's very hard to have a relationship with god when you are pursuing your next time banging some speedballs. God didn't make us too stupid to understand that kind of basic thing.


Are you speaking from experience? How do you know crack or heroin become a lifestyle?


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## Wilderb (Apr 23, 2016)

Thanks for making my point for me.


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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 23, 2016)

KryptoBud said:


> Are you speaking from experience? How do you know crack or heroin become a lifestyle?


Anyone who doesn't hasn't been around it, directly or indirectly. I don't know many people who are "social snowballers"


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## KryptoBud (Apr 23, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> and most of it was transliterated, too. if you even know what that means


Calling names and slinging insults be careful jesus is watching


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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 23, 2016)

Wilderb said:


> Thanks for making my point for me.


science is changed constantly as things are discovered or proven wrong, must mean that is something we must never trust either


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## KryptoBud (Apr 23, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> Anyone who doesn't hasn't been around it, directly or indirectly. I don't know many people who are "social snowballers"


I don't know many virgins that have given birth


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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 23, 2016)

KryptoBud said:


> Calling names and slinging insults be careful jesus is watching


if you even heard half the shit people say to me on here just for just saying what the bible says. how do any of you even know if i believe any of this shit?


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## Wilderb (Apr 23, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> and most of it was transliterated, too. if you even know what that means


YOU believe in the invisible man in the sky and you say I'm the stupid one??? LOL


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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 23, 2016)

Wilderb said:


> YOU believe in the invisible man in the sky and you say I'm the stupid one??? LOL


i don't have any clue on how smart you are, that's why i went ahead and sent that your way so you can do some learning today and become even more smart


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## KryptoBud (Apr 23, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> science is changed constantly as things are discovered or proven wrong, must mean that is something we must never trust either





SamsonsRiddle said:


> if you even heard half the shit people say to me on here just for just saying what the bible says. how do any of you even know if i believe any of this shit?


If you go back and read the thread the majority of the insults of peoples intelligence and hatred towards others are from you and yours.


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## KryptoBud (Apr 23, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> science is changed constantly as things are discovered or proven wrong, must mean that is something we must never trust either


Science? lol no such thing only magic


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## schnooby (Apr 23, 2016)

i believe in a creator and i believe in the separation of church and state. I believe Christianity is supposed to be based on the teachings of christ and there was a situation where christs disciple peter had been confused about paying taxes. Matthew 17:27. Its an interesting story on many levels but the short take away is that jesus told peter to avoid offending go ahead and pay the tax. In another situation jesus said give to cesar what belongs to cesar and to god the things which are gods. In another situation he said if his kingdom was of this world then his followers would fight.

I believe there are more than enough examples like the ones i mentioned to demonstrate christs approach to matters of church and state and they appear to embrace a separation as opposed to unification.

as to the first example about the wedding cake. Supposedly we have a free market. Well, i dont suppose anyone really familiar with the us economy would say its very free when businesses are too big to fail etc......but for the sake of argument its a free market and in a free market people should be allowed to refuse service for any and all reasons (my opinion only). In a free market if one business was allowed to refuse service to gay ppl or anyone else it would be the free market which would punish said business by no longer spending money there, and with the internet the bad reputation would spread so fast its practically guaranteed there would be immediate repercussions. With the gov stepping in and managing what otherwise should be the consequence of market forces all it does is increase the size and involvement of gov in the private lives of free adults to willingly conduct commerce with each other or not and force people to comply under the threat of force or other unsavory condequences.

another perhaps unforseen consequence of forcing ppl to do business with those they otherwise would not is it encourages sneaky and perhaps dangerous behavior by those who resent having their hand forced to perform such services. As christians become more savvy and wise to the game being played i can imagine all kinds of scenarios where they comply with the requests for services but do a shoddy job. In retrospect if those bakers in oregon could have a redo they could have just as easily accepted the job and then just not shown up at all and claimed they were both desperately ill with the flu or some such thing and who would be able to prove otherwise?

The only cases where gov intervention is required and even demanded is in those cases where human rights are being violated such as slavery or equal access to goods and services necessary to life and maintenance of life related necessities like food, shelter, clothing, medical care, transportation, education and the like. There are hosts of other services, activities etc which are clearly not necessary for meeting the basic needs of life and those should, in my opinion, be left to market forces to deal with.


as to churches enjoying tax exempt status it has always bothered me. I have very religious grandparents who first taught me that they even claimed their tithes and offerings on tax returns, which they apparently are allowed to do. Even as a very naive and ignorant 15 year old i remember strongly resenting the fact that something which should be a very personal transaction between the believer and god, giving of ones money to support the ministry or other church related things, that one could get some of that money back in the form of a tax break. I felt that the gov should have nothing at all to do with those things and to this day believe churches should enjoy no special benefits from the state with regard to financial or tax matters.......the buildings should be treated like any other buildings and the gov should have nothing to do with believers money when used to support church activities I think its dangerous for churches to have ever askdd for or allowed those kinds of allowances to be made for them as it seems to set a precedent for gov involvement in church matters.


good topic and very relevant to the times were living in.


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## KryptoBud (Apr 23, 2016)

Its a sad topic and its pathetic that it still relevant 2016. All it is, is discrimination period. In this thread its mostly about christianity or jesus, but i can think of at least 5 major religions off the top of my head. Those 5 could be broken down into hundreds maybe thousands of different beliefs or "faiths" where would it end? The bakers don't have to sell a cake to a gay couple so if i sell baking supplies now i don't have to sell to them because they're bigots? Two thousand years from now people will be debating the same shit. Theres a simple solution that doesn't require commandments or laws, something we all should have been taught as kids. Treat people how you want to be treated. Thats it! Pretty simple unless you're racist, sexist, homophobic, or overly religious. You don't have to like what people do and you don't have to agree with it. If it doesn't concern you mind ya business. Watching 2 men have sex would turn my stomach so i don't watch gay porn and i wouldn't be in a profession that would require me to. If they're consenting adults thats their business nobody elses.


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## Rrog (Apr 23, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> science is changed constantly as things are discovered or proven wrong, must mean that is something we must never trust either


What a truly dumb statement


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## SamsonsRiddle (Apr 23, 2016)

KryptoBud said:


> Science? lol no such thing only magic


kind of like how matter magically appeared, or how time scientifically started?


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## KryptoBud (Apr 23, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> kind of like how matter magically appeared, or how time scientifically started?


nope time is a man made concept just like religion. I've never seen people worship or kill in the name of science


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## schnooby (Apr 23, 2016)

KryptoBud said:


> Its a sad topic and its pathetic that it still relevant 2016. All it is, is discrimination period. In this thread its mostly about christianity or jesus, but i can think of at least 5 major religions off the top of my head. Those 5 could be broken down into hundreds maybe thousands of different beliefs or "faiths" where would it end? The bakers don't have to sell a cake to a gay couple so if i sell baking supplies now i don't have to sell to them because they're bigots? Two thousand years from now people will be debating the same shit. Theres a simple solution that doesn't require commandments or laws, something we all should have been taught as kids. Treat people how you want to be treated. Thats it! Pretty simple unless you're racist, sexist, homophobic, or overly religious. You don't have to like what people do and you don't have to agree with it. If it doesn't concern you mind ya business. Watching 2 men have sex would turn my stomach so i don't watch gay porn and i wouldn't be in a profession that would require me to. If they're consenting adults thats their business nobody elses.



its also sad that 90 percent of the world still lives almost exactly the same as we did 10,000 years ago and that there are thousands of children who die every day because they dont have clean drinking water......

the human condition is what it is......and idealists will always lament the slow pace of progress.....

however, on religion.....you could take it all away right now and not only would it not change a thing about our collective plight, but it might actually make it worse. The law of the jungle is brutal in the extreme. Only the higher nature of man has given us the ability to think in terms of the golden rule. Lions, alligators, bear.....predators do not think about such things....

but this thread was originnally about one main thing........so what say you on the original question?


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## Rrog (Apr 23, 2016)

schnooby said:


> however, on religion.....you could take it all away right now and not only would it not change a thing about our collective plight, but it might actually make it worse. The law of the jungle is brutal in the extreme. Only the higher nature of man has given us the ability to think in terms of the golden rule. Lions, alligators, bear.....predators do not think about such things....


Society and government are required for the same reasons. Left unchecked without ramifications, predatory humans surface.


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## KryptoBud (Apr 23, 2016)

schnooby said:


> its also sad that 90 percent of the world still lives almost exactly the same as we did 10,000 years ago and that there are thousands of children who die every day because they dont have clean drinking water......
> 
> the human condition is what it is......and idealists will always lament the slow pace of progress.....
> 
> ...





schnooby said:


> its also sad that 90 percent of the world still lives almost exactly the same as we did 10,000 years ago and that there are thousands of children who die every day because they dont have clean drinking water......
> 
> the human condition is what it is......and idealists will always lament the slow pace of progress.....
> 
> ...


How could people worship a god that allows such plight? Why would children die from not having clean water to drink unless the little bastards weren't baptized, in that case fuck em they got what they deserved.

My thoughts on the original topic lol The money in my pocket says "In god we trust" kinda says it all.
Thats why I chose cash as my god I worship dead presidents, they'll get you out of tight spots faster than any other god I've ever heard of. Much more powerful thats why the church collects them.


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## schnooby (Apr 23, 2016)

KryptoBud said:


> How could people worship a god that allows such plight? Why would children die from not having clean water to drink unless the little bastards weren't baptized, in that case fuck em they got what they deserved.
> 
> My thoughts on the original topic lol The money in my pocket says "In god we trust" kinda says it all.
> Thats why I chose cash as my god I worship dead presidents, they'll get you out of tight spots faster than any other god I've ever heard of. Much more powerful thats why the church collects them.



well, which god? god is a title like king or president etc.....

and your question is a good one but far beyond the scope of this thread.

i have alot of respect for ppl willing to step outside the paradigms they grew up with or were taught........get completely outside the box......its the only way to have a chance at making sense of anything


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## KryptoBud (Apr 23, 2016)

schnooby said:


> well, which god? god is a title like king or president etc.....
> 
> and your question is a good one but far beyond the scope of this thread.
> 
> i have alot of respect for ppl willing to step outside the paradigms they grew up with or were taught........get completely outside the box......its the only way to have a chance at making sense of anything


Which god? That's a good question I guess that depends on what part of the world you were born in. I have neither a god or religion.


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## ky man (Apr 24, 2016)

THERE is onley ONE GOD the father of jess Christ and all of us on earth.jmo..ky


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