# Best lights, lighting for a 4x4?



## Feisty1UR (Jun 25, 2016)

I've heard waaay too many controversial topics on people saying CMH, or Gavita are better than HPS, MH lighting setups. They never come to a final conclusion..

Apparently you can get away with 315w of light from a CMH, and still pull the same numbers from a 600w Air-cooled HPS. According to statistics the CMH has 4x PAR but I don't know if that's a myth or true..

I was going to buy an Air-cooled Hooded 600w MH, and then possibly switch that out for a 1000w HPS during flower,

Can somebody offer me advice on what I should buy for the area I have?

Cheers


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## indawindica (Jun 25, 2016)

You can do well with a 600w in a 4x4. Even better with a 1000w if you can control the temp. I started out with a 4x4 tent with a 600w mh/hps, and had great results.


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 25, 2016)

indawindica said:


> You can do well with a 600w in a 4x4. Even better with a 1000w if you can control the temp. I started out with a 4x4 tent with a 600w mh/hps, and had great results.


I'm trying to find out which would be a better light source for yield, so much debate...

I made so many mistakes in my first grow, I'm trying to correct everything this time around. upgrade everything so it's all at its best possible potential.

How much did you end up with roughly from a 600?, If you could control the heat would you go with a 1000w. In your own opinion.


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## indawindica (Jun 25, 2016)

Well that was about 10yrs ago. I don't remember exactly what the yield was. I was growing skunk#1 from sensi seeds and ending up with monster harvests using a 600w. Hydro using the home made waterfarm setup with 5 gal buckets and the net pots. I fit about 5 plants in the tent.


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## HydroRed (Jun 25, 2016)

Temps in a 4x4 with a 1000w hps are doable, but do you really want to spend that much $$$ on the extra power consumption between the extra air conditioning ,extra exhaust,extra power used on a big 1000W vs a 600w ballast? In the end for running a 1000W vs a 600W is likely double by the time you factor in all of the other variables.....and for likely close to the same yield. Save yourself the headache of trying to cool the small space & the extra kwh you will be using and go with a 600W HID or better yet 315 CMH. A 1000W technically will cover a 5.5x5.5 space, so in a 4x4 you would be wasting a lot of that extra energy on walls since you cant utilize the lights full potential in a limited space anyways. Just my .02 though.


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 25, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> Temps in a 4x4 with a 1000w hps are doable, but do you really want to spend that much $$$ on the extra power consumption between the extra air conditioning ,extra exhaust,extra power used on a big 1000W vs a 600w ballast? In the end for running a 1000W vs a 600W is likely double by the time you factor in all of the other variables.....and for likely close to the same yield. Save yourself the headache of trying to cool the small space & the extra kwh you will be using and go with a 600W HID or better yet 315 CMH. A 1000W technically will cover a 5.5x5.5 space, so in a 4x4 you would be wasting a lot of that extra energy on walls since you cant utilize the lights full potential in a limited space anyways. Just my .02 though.


I checked out the 315w CMH, why are the prices sooo sky high? You can't air-cool them either from what I've found.

I've found some digital ballasts where you can control the settings and switch them from either 250w - 400w - 600w and the boosted 660w. But I read up on a thread I randomly found and someone complained about these digital ballasts, about how they interfere with radio-waves and they were caught using them, and had someone come around their house to check it out. They apparently make you look suspicious to authorities. I don't know if thats true?

Off topic, coco-coir acts the same way as a hydro-run, right?


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 25, 2016)

yoyo?


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## HydroRed (Jun 25, 2016)

If price is a factor more than power savings & efficiency- then 600w magnetic ballast is your best bet. As for ballasts giving off radio interference, yes this can be true. If you use a magnetic ballast you dont have to worry about this. What happens is that the digital ballast(s) create disruption on RF and can mess up peoples cable tv, which in turn makes them call the cable guy-who in turn traces down where the interference comes from. Then you get the cable guy knocking on your door wondering what the interference is coming from your spot. Plus magnetics cost less on initial upfront cost vs digital ballasts. I use magnetic switchable ballasts which can be switched between MH and HPS by the flip of a switch, and the change of a bulb. As for coco, I dont run it but have read that it should be treated as hydro medium. I'm sure the coco crew will chime in if I'm wrong.


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## DropWalk (Jun 25, 2016)

What are your end goals? 1000 is always going to have the potential to produce more but you do need to factor in the heat in a small area. I went with a 1000 because I didnt want to have to buy a bigger ballest and light if I wanted more.


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 26, 2016)

DropWalk said:


> What are your end goals? 1000 is always going to have the potential to produce more but you do need to factor in the heat in a small area. I went with a 1000 because I didnt want to have to buy a bigger ballest and light if I wanted more.


End goal is to have a nice harvest. Aiming for 2 - 2.5lbs. I will be taking the best producing plant from this next run a choosing a mother to take clones from for the next run and utilise the SOG method. 36 plants, upto an oz per plant. I don't know if that's possible, just what I've read and been told.

How do you manage to keep your temps in check ?


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## HydroRed (Jun 26, 2016)

Its really not even about how many plants you got, but rather how well you fill your canopy (4x4 area). Your plants will need to be really small, which in turn means that you would be growing "single colas" on each plant and keeping veg times short. To be honest, 2-2.5 lbs in a 4x4 area with 1 600 or even 1000 is a bit ambitious. Set realistic goals and work up from there. No need to set yourself up for disappointment.


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## Gquebed (Jun 26, 2016)

In a 4x4 with 1000w you will do well to get 1.5 lbs. 2lbs is doable, but only with experience.

The trouble is cooling a 1000w in a 4x4. If youre in a cool climate it is fairly easy. In a hot climate... tricky...

Get a dimmable 1000w ballast if youre going hid...that way you have options....


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 26, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> Its really not even about how many plants you got, but rather how well you fill your canopy (4x4 area). Your plants will need to be really small, which in turn means that you would be growing "single colas" on each plant and keeping veg times short. To be honest, 2-2.5 lbs in a 4x4 area with 1 600 or even 1000 is a bit ambitious. Set realistic goals and work up from there. No need to set yourself up for disappointment.


But it takes longer to fill a canopy, I'd rather have a nice harvest asap - with minimal effort.

I'm going by what I've been told, apparently you should be aiming for 1.5lbs in a 3x3 3lbs in a 4x4 and 5 in a 5x5


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## HydroRed (Jun 26, 2016)

How does it take longer to fill a canopy? I think you may have misunderstood my last post. If you have 36 plants like you stated in a 4x4 area,you can basically flip from the minute you put the clones out under the light. No veg time, straight into flower- canopy filled. You fill the canopy with the amount of plants -not the size of the plants. If someone told you you should expect 5 lbs in a 5x5 with 1 light....someone is talking major bullshit and you should find another credible source for realistic info.


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 26, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> How does it take longer to fill a canopy? I think you may have misunderstood my last post. If you have 36 plants like you stated in a 4x4 area,you can basically flip from the minute you put the clones out under the light. No veg time, straight into flower- canopy filled. You fill the canopy with the amount of plants -not the size of the plants. If someone told you you should expect 5 lbs in a 5x5 with 1 light....someone is talking major bullshit and you should find another credible source for realistic info.


I thought a canopy was basically using a Scrog screen and weaving the plant through the screen to have a flat surface of bud sites so that direct light can get to them

So a canopy is the amount of plants in one area?


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## TheChemist77 (Jun 26, 2016)

a 315 watt cmh is equivalent to around 450 watts hps.. 1 315 will cover a 4'x4' are pretty well and get 400-450 grams dry weight, 2 315's easiliy cover my 4'x6' table and yield 800-900 grams, 3 315' or 945 watts cmh over that same table yield 1300 grams,,better than 2 600 watt hps's... my gram per watt has gone up with each run under cmh..i grew with hps/mh for 20 plus years, but i am very happy that i tried and now switched to cmh..one other nice thing is bulb changes every 3 years rather than every 6-8 months...


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## HydroRed (Jun 26, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> I thought a canopy was basically using a Scrog screen and weaving the plant through the screen to have a flat surface of bud sites so that direct light can get to them
> 
> So a canopy is the amount of plants in one area?


You are correct with the first part of your reply. The amount of plants like I mentioned is a way to utilize the space and fill your canopy without all the work of training to make the plants fit your canopy to recieve equal light among the tops of all of the plants.
A flat canopy is achieved by training different plants to be equal in height by different means like lst/hst/topping/scrogging etc. If you have small plants, but many of them then there is no need to "fill your canopy" since all the plants will be recieving equal amounts of light top and bottom and the area to be filled is full and maxed out to a point where one plant isnt getting more light than another. If you run many small plants vs 4 larger plants that need to be topped/scrogged etc and vegged for a long period of time then you are utilizing your canopy faster with less time and work involved. In a 4x4 canopy you will need to work to fill it to its capacity to provide the best yield vs just putting many small plants under the same light in the same area. I hope this makes sense.


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 26, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> a 315 watt cmh is equivalent to around 450 watts hps.. 1 315 will cover a 4'x4' are pretty well and get 400-450 grams dry weight, 2 315's easiliy cover my 4'x6' table and yield 800-900 grams, 3 315' or 945 watts cmh over that same table yield 1300 grams,,better than 2 600 watt hps's... my gram per watt has gone up with each run under cmh..i grew with hps/mh for 20 plus years, but i am very happy that i tried and now switched to cmh..one other nice thing is bulb changes every 3 years rather than every 6-8 months...


Can you link me to a place where I can buy these CMH units? Everywhere I've seen they're going for around $400 each lol

Unless that's correct??

I'd be very very happy with 600-700 grams from a 4x4 if possible. What lighting setup would I need to achieve that? Would 2 CMH work well?


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 26, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> You are correct with the first part of your reply. The amount of plants like I mentioned is a way to utilize the space and fill your canopy without all the work of training to make the plants fit your canopy to recieve equal light among the tops of all of the plants.
> A flat canopy is achieved by training different plants to be equal in height by different means like lst/hst/topping/scrogging etc. If you have small plants, but many of them then there is no need to "fill your canopy" since all the plants will be recieving equal amounts of light top and bottom and the area to be filled is full and maxed out to a point where one plant isnt getting more light than another. If you run many small plants vs 4 larger plants that need to be topped/scrogged etc and vegged for a long period of time then you are utilizing your canopy faster with less time and work involved. In a 4x4 canopy you will need to work to fill it to its capacity to provide the best yield vs just putting many small plants under the same light in the same area. I hope this makes sense.


Ahh I see, so many small plants won't yield the same as a uniformed 2-3 month veg 4 plant Scrog in a 4x4. Or am I completely missing the point :s

Surely a 9 or 16 plant Scrog would work better? Less overall veg time.

Still undecided on what I should work with


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## DropWalk (Jun 26, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> But it takes longer to fill a canopy, I'd rather have a nice harvest asap - with minimal effort.
> 
> I'm going by what I've been told, apparently you should be aiming for 1.5lbs in a 3x3 3lbs in a 4x4 and 5 in a 5x5


5 lbs in a 5x5 space 


Starting out in SOG you will net about 10-15g a plant till you understand the strain. Shoot for a gram a watt and go from there.


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 26, 2016)

@TheChemist77 @HydroRed

yo?


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## HydroRed (Jun 26, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Ahh I see, so many small plants won't yield the same as a uniformed 2-3 month veg 4 plant Scrog in a 4x4. Or am I completely missing the point :s
> 
> Surely a 9 or 16 plant Scrog would work better? Less overall veg time.
> 
> Still undecided on what I should work with


Let me put it like this, if you do 36 small plants with no veg time in a 4x4 under a 600W hps, you will likely pull more weight in the same amount of time since there is a quicker turn around time vs a long veg period on 2 plants in the same 4x4 space. I dont mean just on one grow either. I mean as an overall average over a 1 yr period.

EXAMPLE:
If you grew 36 plants in a 4x4 with a 600W hps and managed to pull 10 grams of just top colas from each plant (which is very achievable with a decent strain and very basic knowledge) you will yield 360g- and you can do it in 9 weeks total.
52wks in a year divided by 9 weeks is approx 5 complete runs with time for cleanups/maint etc in between each run.
13oz x 5 runs=65Oz per year

If you grew 2 plants in the same 4x4 with the same 600W hps and managed to pull 20 oz from both plants (which is a very realistic number since you are growing big bushes and eveything under your scrog net will be larfy scrub buds and worth a shit other than extracts)
you will yield 20oz-and you can do it in 16 weeks total.
52 weeks in a year divided by 16 weeks is approx 3 complete runs with a little time for cleanup/maint in between each run.
20oz x 3 runs=60 Oz per year.

Not only would you be getting 5 oz a year more by growing more,smaller plants, you would be saving a ton of cash not running your lights for a 18/6 or even a 24hr lights on veg cycle 6 months out of the year.
Keep in mind this is only an example but it is a realistic one to help put things into perspective in terms of growing and yeilds vs money & time spent getting it. Hope this helps!


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 26, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> Let me put it like this, if you do 36 small plants with no veg time in a 4x4 under a 600W hps, you will likely pull more weight quicker since there is a quicker turn around time vs a long veg period on 2 plants in the same 4x4 space. I dont mean just on one grow either. I mean as an overall average over a 1 yr period.
> 
> EXAMPLE:
> If you grew 36 plants in a 4x4 with a 600W hps and managed to pull 10 grams of just top colas from each plant (which is very achievable with a decent strain and very basic knowledge) you will yield 360g- and you can do it in 9 weeks total.
> ...


That's exactly what I going to do in the first place lol, but you made it sound more complicated 

I've got 9 seedlings atm under 3 40-60w CFL's, I'm going to pick a mother from these - This run. Then use the best producing mother for the SoG. Only vegging them for a month then flower just to see their potential.

Take cuttings beforehand obviously and have a separate tent to root/grow, then once my flower room is finished make a decision which is the best plant and use the cuttings I took from it before i put it into flower and grow that into a mother plant and keep her in veg - and throw the other cuttings out which suck


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## HydroRed (Jun 26, 2016)

Dont let me throw you off track then. You got this.


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 26, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> Dont let me throw you off track then. You got this.


Thanks dude. Have you ever done a SoG style grow before? Feels like it's gunna be ALOT of hassle to keep watering them 1-2 times a day


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## HydroRed (Jun 26, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Thanks dude. Have you ever done a SoG style grow before? Feels like it's gunna be ALOT of hassle to keep watering them 1-2 times a day


Run your coco on a drip feed system. Auto feed from a timer controlled pump like 2-3 times a day from a master res. Then you dont need to really babysit much more than just the main res in regards to feeding.


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 26, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> Run your coco on a drip feed system. Auto feed from a timer controlled pump like 2-3 times a day from a master res. Then you dont need to really babysit much more than just the main res in regards to feeding.


Ah fuck... Even more I need to read into :/

Are these drip system's complicated? I always thought these type of systems are for extremely experienced growers.


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## PotHead3 (Jun 26, 2016)

DropWalk said:


> 5 lbs in a 5x5 space
> 
> 
> Starting out in SOG you will net about 10-15g a plant till you understand the strain. Shoot for a gram a watt and go from there.


missing way too much here you should edit this. if i use 4 plants and veg long enough for sog i wont be happy with 10-15g a plant. forget wieght per plant causes too much confusion like your post. should be calculated grams per sqft. then make sure you have enough light for whatever your area is. more plants less veg time.
if anything in a 4x4- 5x5 area i would shoot for 16 plants for minimal veg time and best ease of canopy control. veg a week longer and you can do 9 plants evenly in a 4x4 area. that seems to be the sweet spot with plant count and veg time. but if you can make a 4x4 bed and use 16 nice clones single cola style sea of green you should be able to flip after 3 days of veg. just to fill up the roots a bit and flip to 12/12. just try see what works best for your strain observe how fast the veg and how big they get when finishes then the second time around you will know more about what the plant likes. doing it this way is a great way to be sure you will come out with at least 1.5 lbs which really isnt hard but people over think the lights and such which in turn makes it so confusing for noobs to learn. i get around 1.9-2.2 with a setup like this depending on strain. also make sure you have air movement on such a tight canopy and keep your humidity in check.


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## PotHead3 (Jun 26, 2016)

DropWalk said:


> 5 lbs in a 5x5 space
> 
> 
> Starting out in SOG you will net about 10-15g a plant till you understand the strain. Shoot for a gram a watt and go from there.


yeah on the 5x5 =5 lbs is someone talking out their ass. makes no sense you can easily calculate and shit on these types of people. if you yield 1.5 in a 3x3 means you getting 1.5 in a 9sqft area change that area to a 5x5 in the same style. is eqaul to less than 4.5 lbs cause 5x5 = 25 sqft. " lets use these numbers 9 sqft you get 9 oz for example. then 25 sqft would get you 25 oz. " this is if all things are equal in terms of lumens or par whatever you wanna use. watering and everything else being equal except for size of area. dont just listen to people question why it makes sense or dont make sense. if you know this much you will be able to sort out all the bs the world throws at you


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## DropWalk (Jun 26, 2016)

PotHead3 said:


> missing way too much here you should edit this. if i use 4 plants and veg long enough for sog i wont be happy with 10-15g a plant. forget wieght per plant causes too much confusion like your post. should be calculated grams per sqft. then make sure you have enough light for whatever your area is. more plants less veg time


No you miss the point on what SOG means and is. You would like him to grow your style then figure out the strain like I already said.


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## TheChemist77 (Jun 27, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> @TheChemist77 @HydroRed
> 
> yo?


for a 4x4 area, you can get 1 315 watt cmh and yield 400-450 grams per run in a sog style grow.. i agree that many small plants produce better than larger plants,, however i veg all clones at least a week before flip to flower,, i mean u can flip rooted clones, but depending on the strain,, sativa dominant plant can go directly from cloner,rooted clone to flower and being sat dom they will stretch,, a indica dominant strain will not stretch like a sativa so a indica dom clone need a bit of veg time if you want to have a 2n a half to 3 ft finished plant.. i feel the light penetration using either hps /mh/ or cmh is good with 3 ft tall pants or even up to a 4ft tall plant with good size lower buds.. any taller than 4ft to me is wasted small throw away bud...i like indica dom strains that finish in 50 days or less,,just to note, cmh lighting reduces flower time on any strain,, a 9 week strain under hps is now a 8 week finish under the ceramic spectrum.. so i take rooted clones that are low stretch indica dom plants and veg for 2 weeks under 18/6 to get the plants around a foot or 1 n a half foot tall then pack 36 plants or more onto a 4'x6' flood table to flower.. i end up with 3ft tall finished plants and yield 1.5 grams per watt using the cmh.. under hps i averaged 1 gram per watt under 2 600 watt hps's over the same table,, now i use 2 or 3 cmh lamps, 2 315's get me 800 grams or better wile 3 315's get me 1300 grams,,,however i feel 3 315's would be better with a larger 4ft x 8ft table,, its a bit overkill running 3 315's over my 4ft x 6ft table... i now run 2 315's 3ft above canopy and 3ft from cener to center of fixtures in line over the table and consistently yield 1.5-1.6 gpw...grow well n be well


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 28, 2016)

PotHead3 said:


> yeah on the 5x5 =5 lbs is someone talking out their ass. makes no sense you can easily calculate and shit on these types of people. if you yield 1.5 in a 3x3 means you getting 1.5 in a 9sqft area change that area to a 5x5 in the same style. is eqaul to less than 4.5 lbs cause 5x5 = 25 sqft. " lets use these numbers 9 sqft you get 9 oz for example. then 25 sqft would get you 25 oz. " this is if all things are equal in terms of lumens or par whatever you wanna use. watering and everything else being equal except for size of area. dont just listen to people question why it makes sense or dont make sense. if you know this much you will be able to sort out all the bs the world throws at you


What strain do you currently run to pull those figures in sog?


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 28, 2016)

How big should my air-cooled hood be for the 4x4??

Does it matter?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magnum-XXXL-Dominator-150mm-Air-Cooled-Reflector-/111269185417?hash=item19e8290789:g:if0AAOSwInVXHgAP

or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Maxibright-Goldstar-Air-cooled-Reflector-/111314183217?hash=item19ead7a431:g:EG8AAOSwQTVV8E81


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## coreywebster (Jun 28, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> How big should my air-cooled hood be for the 4x4??
> 
> Does it matter?
> 
> ...


It does matter. Depends on what if your just vegging or flowering too.

The bottom link is similar to what I have(not in use) it was great but from what I remember reading at the time the top one gives a better spread and footprint. Think its a bigger hood.
To be fair to the cheaper one it will likely give good results with a 600 or 1000 in 4x4.


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 28, 2016)

coreywebster said:


> It does matter. Depends on what if your just vegging or flowering too.
> 
> The bottom link is similar to what I have(not in use) it was great but from what I remember reading at the time the top one gives a better spread and footprint. Think its a bigger hood.
> To be fair to the cheaper one it will likely give good results with a 600 or 1000 in 4x4.


But would the bigger one give better? Results*

I was going to do a SOG with 36 plants.


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 28, 2016)

Need advice on flood and drain systems @HydroRed any threads that I should look at for the 36 plant system

I'm currently looking into ebb and flow, I don't know if that's right for the method im using


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## coreywebster (Jun 28, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> But would the bigger one give better?
> 
> I was going to do a SOG with 36 plants.


I have to say I have not used the Magnum, it was a few years back I was in the market for one and went for saving the cash option. I remember a lot of good things said about the magnums spread, I'm afraid I cant find any links to back that up though. Were I in the market for buying one of these again, I would go for the magnum. I used the maxibright for a while in flower and the spread was good. But I am comparing it to cooltubes, which I ended up going with due to the lack of air turbulence in a straight line of 3 to minimise strain on my fan.
I would say the magnum is the better option for a SOG but that is a speculative opinion I'm afraid. Maxibright products are ok but should be considered mid range products. Both will do the job, one likely ever so slightly better.


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## Gquebed (Jun 28, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Need advice on flood and drain systems @HydroRed any threads that I should look at for the 36 plant system
> 
> I'm currently looking into ebb and flow, I don't know if that's right for the method im using


 Ebb and flow is perfect for small plant sog....


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## HydroRed (Jun 28, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Need advice on flood and drain systems @HydroRed any threads that I should look at for the 36 plant system
> 
> I'm currently looking into ebb and flow, I don't know if that's right for the method im using


x2 on the Ebb n Flo or Flood and Drain. I'm actually in the process of changing over my entire hydro setup from drip buckets to flood and drain. I have a DIY for it that cost under $90 to build a dual pump single res 4'x4' flood and drain table.
Let me know if its something you are interested in.


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 28, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> x2 on the Ebb n Flo or Flood and Drain. I'm actually in the process of changing over my entire hydro setup from drip buckets to flood and drain. I have a DIY for it that cost under $90 to build a dual pump single res 4'x4' flood and drain table.
> Let me know if its something you are interested in.


Yeah that would help heaps, interested for sure!


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## DropWalk (Jun 28, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Need advice on flood and drain systems @HydroRed any threads that I should look at for the 36 plant system
> 
> I'm currently looking into ebb and flow, I don't know if that's right for the method im using


SOG would be great for 36 plants and quick turn around.


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 30, 2016)

Can anyone link me to a good DIY ebb n flow system? Need something for a 4x4, can't find much on google. Everyone has different setups


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## HydroRed (Jun 30, 2016)

Flood and drain DIY

Parts list:
(2) 27x20x6 mixing trays from Home Depot or Lowes @ $5.98 ea.
(2) 185 GPH submersible pumps @ $14 ea @ hydro store or online
(2) 1/2" fill /3/4" drain Bulkheads Approx $15 for everything from hydro store or online
8' of 3/4" black tubing @ .49 per ft from hydro store
8' of 1/2" black tubing @ .31 per ft from hydro store
27 gallon tote (with lid) for reservoir @ $7.79 from Home Depot 
(2) large airstones @ $2.39 from Walmart
25' of 1/4" tubing @ $2.29 from Walmart
(1) dual diaphram air pump @ $9 from Walmart
(?) However many netpots you plan to use or how many plants you will be doing.
(1) bag of hydroton medium @ $24 for 50L bag from hydro store which is good for many grows.


Build a makeshift table big enough to support both mixing trays.
You can build a wooden frame for the table then lay plywood or whatever works for making a table for the trays that the 27 gal res can sit underneath.
You can even build the table from milk crates and a sheet of 5/8" plywood. Whatever you need to do to make it work....this is DIY.

This is how mine is going to be to give you an idea of how it will be set up with 10 plants (5) 6" net pots in each tray) 

 

Here is a video to help you understand how to set up your flood & drain table.


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## TheChemist77 (Jun 30, 2016)

i bought a 4'x6' f n d table,, pretty expensive and takes 70 gallons to flood.. so i bought 4inch pvc pipes, each 1 cut to fit my space, uses half the water to fill n works great as a f n d set up cheap.. so buy some 4inch pvc, cut holes in top to fit 3inch net pots,,, see my set up on page 1 of my thred,,easy to build,...

https://www.rollitup.org/t/chemist77-315-watt-cdl-grow.880895/page-1


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## TheChemist77 (Jun 30, 2016)

sorry, wrong thread,,, its this one with pix of the pvc grow
https://www.rollitup.org/t/chemist77-pic-journal.850252/


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 30, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> Flood and drain DIY
> 
> Parts list:
> (2) 27x20x6 mixing trays from Home Depot or Lowes @ $5.98 ea.
> ...


This looks too easy lol, can you get a 4x4 mixing tray? would I be better off using 4 1x2 trays? I see alot of effort went into making this guide!  cheers


----------



## Feisty1UR (Jun 30, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> sorry, wrong thread,,, its this one with pix of the pvc grow
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/chemist77-pic-journal.850252/


Would that method work in a 4x4 with 36 clones? 70 gal sounds a bit excessive lmao


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## HydroRed (Jun 30, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> This looks too easy lol, can you get a 4x4 mixing tray? would I be better off using 4 1x2 trays? I see alot of effort went into making this guide!  cheers


They carry a larger mixing tray, but its only about 25% bigger than the ones I got and about 2-3" deeper which would do you no good.
You can buy actual flood and drain tables in 2x2-2x4-4x4-4x8 etc, but they are pricey $$$$$.
More trays = more money spent on flood & drain bulkheads,tubing,pumps and the trays themselves.
I'd recommend a store bought 4x4 tray if you are worried about exacting dimensions and sizes.
I built what would work best for me and was cheapest and easiest to build. I just got done building my flood trays and getting the pumps/tubing hooked up and running on 27 gal res just to test for any leaks. 
I'm now in the process of building the table it will all sit on right now. I just bought the lumber so I'll post some pics when I get it finished.
With this build you can do anywhere from 2 larger plants or 36 small plants....just depends on how you pot them and arrange them in the flood trays and what size net pots you use. I'm using 6" netpots so I'll only have room for 10 smaller plants. Im only allowed 12 legally so this works perfect for me...10 in flower and 2 mommas. 2 plants to take clones from any time I like in a seperate veg room with a cloner and I'm 100% self sufficient. Easy peasy.
You can do 36 in a 4x4, but I wouldnt expect an oz off of each like you had mentioned in a previous reply.
If you used 3" net pots I'm confident you could fit 18 into one of the trays I have...x2 trays is 36 small plants for a sea of green hydroponic flood and drain grow.


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## HydroRed (Jun 30, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> i bought a 4'x6' f n d table,, pretty expensive and takes 70 gallons to flood.. so i bought 4inch pvc pipes, each 1 cut to fit my space, uses half the water to fill n works great as a f n d set up cheap.. so buy some 4inch pvc, cut holes in top to fit 3inch net pots,,, see my set up on page 1 of my thred,,easy to build,...
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/chemist77-315-watt-cdl-grow.880895/page-1


yikes....70 gal. Big flood tables require even bigger reservoirs lol


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## DropWalk (Jun 30, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> yikes....70 gal. Big flood tables require even bigger reservoirs lol


How deep are you flooding? 40gal rez and a 4x4 tray will run you around $250 and cheaper if you can find one used.


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## HydroRed (Jun 30, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Can anyone link me to a good DIY ebb n flow system? Need something for a 4x4, can't find much on google. Everyone has different setups


I have under $70 in this entire build since I had plywood/building supplies/27 gal reservoir & res drain kit already.
I would say with certainty that this could be built from scratch without having any of the supplies for $100 or less.


DropWalk said:


> How deep are you flooding? 40gal rez and a 4x4 tray will run you around $250 and cheaper if you can find one used.


It only takes me about 9 gallons to flood my tables I just built. Im using a 27 gal res but will only have about 20 in it.
I literally just finished building it about 30 min ago. Just gotta run the plumbing and its ready for my next run. I'd say I flood it about 3.5-4" in a 6" tray.
The trays I used are 7 gal & I use about 4.5 gal in each tray.
I added a home made reservoir drain kit for easy draining when its time also.


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## Feisty1UR (Jun 30, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> I have under $70 in this entire build since I had plywood/building supplies/27 gal reservoir & res drain kit already.
> I would say with certainty that this could be built from scratch without having any of the supplies for $100 or less.
> 
> It only takes me about 9 gallons to flood my tables I just built. Im using a 27 gal res but will only have about 20 in it.
> ...


Definelty copying your setup, my only issue is the tray/res size

There's no way I can fit a 4x4 tray in a 4x4 tent, maybe 3.9x3.9? I'll need to do some customising + I searched something earlier, someone managed to fit 47 small plants into their ebb n flow system in a 4x4. Would that be detrimental to yield? And is it even possible??


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## DropWalk (Jun 30, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Definelty copying your setup, my only issue is the tray/res size
> 
> There's no way I can fit a 4x4 tray in a 4x4 tent, maybe 3.9x3.9? I'll need to do some customising + I searched something earlier, someone managed to fit 47 small plants into their ebb n flow system in a 4x4. Would that be detrimental to yield? And is it even possible??


Yes most of the time people run 5x5 with a 4x4 tray. Active aqua has a new table that the outside of the table is 4x4 instead in the inner being 4x4 so it will fit in your tent. Msrp is 80 so pretty good back for the buck!


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## HydroRed (Jun 30, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Definelty copying your setup, my only issue is the tray/res size
> 
> There's no way I can fit a 4x4 tray in a 4x4 tent, maybe 3.9x3.9? I'll need to do some customising + I searched something earlier, someone managed to fit 47 small plants into their ebb n flow system in a 4x4. Would that be detrimental to yield? And is it even possible??


The setup I built is 44"x34" outside diameter and will fit perfect in a 4x4 tent. Its 24" off the ground so plenty of headroom in a 7' tall tent. If needed, you could always scale it down 2" on width and length since I actually built the table bigger than i really needed for the flood trays.


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## Ecosunlite CREE LED (Jun 30, 2016)

maybe you can check our this model . http://www.ecosunlite.com/e_productshow/?55-ESL-CREE-CX-COB-LED-4-55.html


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## HydroRed (Jun 30, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Definelty copying your setup, my only issue is the tray/res size
> 
> There's no way I can fit a 4x4 tray in a 4x4 tent, maybe 3.9x3.9? I'll need to do some customising + I searched something earlier, someone managed to fit 47 small plants into their ebb n flow system in a 4x4. Would that be detrimental to yield? And is it even possible??


And what was their yield? What light did they use? What was the strain. Plant count isnt the only factor in yield.
I mean hell, if that were the case then toss 85 of em in there......right? lol


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## Indefinately (Jun 30, 2016)

I definitely would use a 1000 watt HPS in a cool tube.

Flood and Drain is the way to go for sure.

If your going to use coco, I find it best to put a layer of Rockwool Floc at the bottom of each pot to stop the coco spilling out onto my tray/reservoir.

If you are groin SOG ( no veg - flower straight from clone ). You will be hitting half a Zip per plant easy. After a few grows and dependent on the strain, you may be able to get it up to 1.25 zips per plant. 

Spend the next few days Reading Al B Fucts thread. You won't get better information anywhere else on Sea of Green.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/get-a-harvest-every-2-weeks.6592/

Indefinately
"Let there be Green in 2016"


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## Indefinately (Jun 30, 2016)

Extracted From Al B Fuct - My Aussie Grow Bible

Sea of Green

A better solution to poor density on lower buds is to simply not grow any lower buds. This is one of the problems that the Sea of Green method solves.

The SoG technique produces essentially just the very top cola and the few buds below it on the mainstem that you would find in the top couple of feet of an unpruned plant.

A couple of things need to be done to produce the SoG 'lollipop' style plant. In SoG, clones are put into 12/12 with no veg time post setting root, aside from time they spend in the clone box under fluoros, where no appreciable growth occurs. All branching on the lower 1/3 of the plant is removed; pruning is done in wk 1 and again in wk 3. Any branch that's more than about an inch long gets nipped off. This forces the plant to grow only the big nugs that are attached directly to the mainstem- and they will be larger and denser on average than unpruned plants- the plant will put resources into growing the top that would normally have gone into the fluffy, wispy lower buds. The top buds are denser than any other on the plant and produce the least amount of bud leaf per bud mass. This makes them a lot easier and faster to manicure come harvest time. 

The SoG method depends on a larger number of smaller plants. Removing the lower branching of course reduces the per-plant yield. However, you can grow as many as 4 SoG plants per sq ft, where unpruned plants may need at least a couple sq ft just for each plant. A lot of floorspace is consumed by thin lower branches which are shaded by upper foliage, naturally limiting what they can produce. SoG plants yield between 0.5-1.5oz per plant depending on strain and grow room conditions. These poorly producing lower branches will also have a lot of leaf, which restricts air circulation around the plants. SoG lollipops can really be packed in, making best use of available lighted space. Without branches, SoG plants don't crowd each other, even at 4 per sf. 

The net result with SoG is you are harvesting mainly top cola buds. SoG grows produce a much higher average bud size and density compared to styles which permit growth of the lower branches. 

The downside to SoG is the high plant numbers. If you have severe penalties in your area for large plant counts or have medical grow permission for only a few plants, you may not want to do SoG. It may be better to do the 'mainstem lopped' style, which requires that the plants be vegged for a few weeks after the mainstem is clipped so that the branches will develop large enough to make some decent buddage. If you must veg plants you intend to flower later on and still want a perpetual harvest arrangement, you need a separate grow room with 18+h/day light to do your vegging. 

SoG allows you to grow the best quality and highest yield per amount of lighted floorspace of all methods- and reduces work at harvest time, to boot.

Extracted From Al B Fuct - My Aussie Grow Bible


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 1, 2016)

Ecosunlite CREE LED said:


> maybe you can check our this model . http://www.ecosunlite.com/e_productshow/?55-ESL-CREE-CX-COB-LED-4-55.html


Or you can give me one for free from the giveaway? 

How much would that cost me? I thought white light was the best allround spectrum, why the red's blue's and yellow's?


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## HydroRed (Jul 1, 2016)

You have to message them to ge a quote since they say they use different cobs and the shipping cost from China to your location. You could also build your own for a fraction of the cost....I did.


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## Indefinately (Jul 1, 2016)

All these lights hardly existed a few years back

It looks like they have come a long way.

They must have considering so many people are using them these days.

Indefinately
" Let there be Green in 2016 "


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## mauricem00 (Jul 1, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> I've heard waaay too many controversial topics on people saying CMH, or Gavita are better than HPS, MH lighting setups. They never come to a final conclusion..
> 
> Apparently you can get away with 315w of light from a CMH, and still pull the same numbers from a 600w Air-cooled HPS. According to statistics the CMH has 4x PAR but I don't know if that's a myth or true..
> 
> ...


 seems that there are a lot of myth and exaggerations regarding grow lights. your local hydro shops or garden center can tell you what the most popular lights are and that's usually a good indication of what works well.seems that the more money people spend on their lights the more they love them and defend them.your ideal of going with a time proven approach seems like the best way to deal with your situation.


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 1, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> You have to message them to ge a quote since they say they use different cobs and the shipping cost from China to your location. You could also build your own for a fraction of the cost....I did.
> View attachment 3722001 View attachment 3722002


Did you see any real differences between using COBS and HIDS? I've checked on Alibaba you can get those chinese cob lighting units pretty cheap. But I've already bought both MH and HPS 600w grow lights ready for my raptor hood when it arrives.

Ordered this bad boy too








"The awesome Dominator XXXL grow light reflector from Sunlight Supply is the largest air-cooled reflector in the world, and is ideal for those needing a large spread of light even when suspended at a low height.

This is THE ultimate air-cooled reflector for 600watt and 1000watt lighting systems.

Constructed to the highest quality using photometric data, it has 95% reflective textured German aluminum interior, which offers excellent reflectivity and diffusion. Completely sealed - features double gasketed glass and hinged frame to hold glass tightly in place."


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## HydroRed (Jul 1, 2016)

I used (2) SunSystems 1000W hps/mh switchable ballasts on 2 SunSystems 6" aircooled hoods. Great setups, with awesome yield- just hard to run in the summer. Thats what I built the led lights for since they run much cooler for summer months of growing. I still use my 1K's the rest of the year.


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## HydroRed (Jul 1, 2016)

Indefinately said:


> All these lights hardly existed a few years back
> 
> It looks like they have come a long way.
> 
> ...


They work very well, use little more than 1/2 the power consumption as my 1K's and they run cooleer as well. Its a win/win/win for me. Im happy with mine so far & the plants love it.


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 1, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> I used (2) SunSystems 1000W hps/mh switchable ballasts on 2 SunSystems 6" aircooled hoods. Great setups, with awesome yield- just hard to run in the summer. Thats what I built the led lights for since they run much cooler for summer months of growing. I still use my 1K's the rest of the year.


That's why I opted for 600w for now, and when winter is here I'll use 1000w's. Sound like a good plan?

I'll still yield good with the 600, right? What's the comparison between 600-1000? Unless G/watt really means something... I just figured any amount of light for small clones that are going into flower directly won't exactly need the 1000w, because theres no canopy to penetrate and hit lower branches


----------



## mauricem00 (Jul 1, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Did you see any real differences between using COBS and HIDS? I've checked on Alibaba you can get those chinese cob lighting units pretty cheap. But I've already bought both MH and HPS 600w grow lights ready for my raptor hood when it arrives.
> 
> Ordered this bad boy too
> 
> ...


 looks like you have a good set up. be careful with those cheap chinese leds. they tend to be very inefficient and have short life expediencies. good quality leds will cost a little money. can't tell you how well they work. as a PU MMJ grower they are way outside my budget but I know from experience that the cheap Chinese units are junk. my mars hydro started loosing diodes after 2 weeks and my 2g11 CFLs with an inexpensive plusrite ballast outperformed them.you chose a good setup. don't second guess yourself.lights are only one part of growing a good crop.


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## HydroRed (Jul 1, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> That's why I opted for 600w for now, and when winter is here I'll use 1000w's. Sound like a good plan?
> 
> I'll still yield good with the 600, right? What's the comparison between 600-1000? Unless G/watt really means something... I just figured any amount of light for small clones that are going into flower directly won't exactly need the 1000w, because theres no canopy to penetrate and hit lower branches


@mauricem00 is right on point with his last comment regarding lights being one part of getting a good crop. Theres plenty of guys runnin 600's pulling equal to 1K's....and for half of the power consumption. You have to have some knowledge behind your equipment to do well. If you are running S.O.G in 4x4 like you said, the 600W ballast and the XXXL air cooled hood is perfect for you and I would anticipate you to do well with it.


----------



## Feisty1UR (Jul 1, 2016)

Perfect! Thanks for all the help guys really appreciate it


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## Thorhax (Jul 1, 2016)

ever consider 600-800 watts of CXB3590 run @1400mA?


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## Indefinately (Jul 1, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> They work very well, use little more than 1/2 the power consumption as my 1K's and they run cooleer as well. Its a win/win/win for me. Im happy with mine so far & the plants love it.


Hey Hydro,

Have you done a comparison on crop/crop led vs hid? With all other variables as close as possible in order to compare yield?
I'm very curious on yield and buds density/quality of the Led.

I would assume the yield would be at least half as per the savings in watts ( same GPW just more airy buds I'm assuming ).

Indefinately
" Let there be Green in 2016 "


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## HydroRed (Jul 1, 2016)

Indefinately said:


> Hey Hydro,
> 
> Have you done a comparison on crop/crop led vs hid? With all other variables as close as possible in order to compare yield?
> I'm very curious on yield and buds density/quality of the Led.
> ...


Too early in to really tell, but its not been a "side by side" so to speak. The grow I am using the led cobs for now is basically a pheno hunt so I didnt "grow" the way I normally would have done it had I been going for a solid full crop/yield. As for growth, it doesnt seem too far off from what I would have gotten from my hps so far. Good light penetration, frost and bud stacking so far. I'm only running 400W of led so I cant really compare to a 1K, but its doing a fine job so far. I honestly expect it to do very well at a fraction of the energy used and heat produced. I think another 200W bar added to my light would make the difference of exceeding my 1000W hps though in a 4x4ish area. Nothing is seeming "airy" at all as of yet, but Im only 4 wks into flower.


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 1, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> Too early in to really tell, but its not been a "side by side" so to speak. The grow I am using the led cobs for now is basically a pheno hunt so I didnt "grow" the way I normally would have done it had I been going for a solid full crop/yield. As for growth, it doesnt seem too far off from what I would have gotten from my hps so far. Good light penetration, frost and bud stacking so far. I'm only running 400W of led so I cant really compare to a 1K, but its doing a fine job so far. I honestly expect it to do very well at a fraction of the energy used and heat produced. I think another 200W bar added to my light would make the difference of exceeding my 1000W hps though in a 4x4ish area. Nothing is seeming "airy" at all as of yet, but Im only 4 wks into flower.


What strains have you chosen dude?

I'm trying out some of bohdis stuff, sunshine daydream.. All Reg seeds, gunna suck finding males... But I guess that's part of the process for quality bud :/ Do you think these are the right type of strain for a SOG? They're more connoiseur grade than anything. I should have done more research beforehand. Supposedly some phenos taste and smell like blueberries pancakes. that kinda lured me in  So I bought some.

If that fails I have some guaranteed fem NL's from sensiseeds. Can't really go wrong with northern lights, right?
Someone told me that if you grow NL's that aren't crossed they aren't stable and are more immune to diseases etc, is this true??

I feel like I've made the worst possible choice strains for SOG. Need some reassurance i didn't totally screw up


----------



## PetFlora (Jul 2, 2016)

If you're ready to move into the 21st century, check out Amare Technologies SE 250, or Pro 3

These are top quality, high intensity, hybrid led panels


----------



## coreywebster (Jul 2, 2016)

Indefinately said:


> Hey Hydro,
> 
> Have you done a comparison on crop/crop led vs hid? With all other variables as close as possible in order to compare yield?
> I'm very curious on yield and buds density/quality of the Led.
> ...


Hey man, have you not seen one of growmau5s youtube vids, I'm sure there is one where he does one set up with a strain under hps and then shows the next with same space and strain with equal watts at the wall of cobs, possibly the older cxb or cxa 3070s

Actually.. here it is..


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 2, 2016)

PetFlora said:


> If you're ready to move into the 21st century, check out Amare Technologies SE 250, or Pro 3
> 
> These are top quality, high intensity, hybrid led panels


What do those lights offer that a HPS doesn't?

I've bought the biggest and best air-cooled reflector equipped with a 600w HPS. Surely that would provide the same footprint/outcome?


----------



## Thorhax (Jul 2, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> What do those lights offer that a HPS doesn't?
> 
> I've bought the biggest and best air-cooled reflector equipped with a 600w HPS. Surely that would provide the same footprint/outcome?


COBs offer WAY less wasted energy converted into heat. give a much better spectrum. AND give you a much more uniform spread.


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## TheChemist77 (Jul 2, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Would that method work in a 4x4 with 36 clones? 70 gal sounds a bit excessive lmao


it would work perfectly just cut to fit your space and you could get away with a much smaller rez,, say 40 gallon, maybe less..


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 2, 2016)

Thorhax said:


> COBs offer WAY less wasted energy converted into heat. give a much better spectrum. AND give you a much more uniform spread.


Where can I get some of these already built? How much more would it cost me compared to what I was going with, and how much better would the yield at the end be? I know you can't be exact because of other variables, but for example 10%-25% more?? Or is is purely based off efficientness, and not so much on the yield part. But more so energy consumed, and less light-spread


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## HydroRed (Jul 2, 2016)

Its pretty much about efficiency. The start up cost is pretty high, even higher if you cant build one yourself. Cutter & PLC makes DIY kits and premade fixtures with CXB3070's and CXB3590 which are about the best Cobs you can get at the moment, but technology moves fast.

For prebuilt kits you can hit up
http://www.pacificlightconcepts.com

For DIY kits you can hit up
http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut2900
Its the efficiency matched with the results is usually why people spend a bit more to use LED.
After a run or two they are likely to pay for themselves.
Also, the lifetime on these lights are about 50,000 hrs or approx 4-5 yrs vs changing your HID bulb every 6 months or so.


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 2, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> Its pretty much about efficiency. The start up cost is pretty high, even higher if you cant build one yourself. Cutter & PLC makes DIY kits and premade fixtures with CXB3070's and CXB3590 which are about the best Cobs you can get at the moment, but technology moves fast.
> 
> For prebuilt kits you can hit up
> http://www.pacificlightconcepts.com
> ...


I just saw the price and my face dropped...

How many of those kits would I need to suit a 4x4?


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## BM9AGS (Jul 2, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> I just saw the price and my face dropped...
> 
> How many of those kits would I need to suit a 4x4?


Check out timber grow lights. Might be cheaper for ya depending where you live.


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 2, 2016)

BM9AGS said:


> Check out timber grow lights. Might be cheaper for ya depending where you live.


The only problem is, I don't have that kind of money yet. Well... that's a lie.. I do - however I feel spending nearly all I have on lights to be a bit ludicrous...  Surely it would be better for my position at the moment to stick with the HPS+Cool-Hood. Atleast it's second best, right? 

I'm still going to pull good numbers with my 4x4/600w regardless if I don't use COBs, then I upgrade from then on out


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## HydroRed (Jul 2, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> I just saw the price and my face dropped...
> 
> How many of those kits would I need to suit a 4x4?


Without getting into too much, I would say as a vague answer you could get away with 400W of cob led lighting to do a sog grow in a 4x4.
The CX300 that PLC sells is sufficient for a 3x3 alone.The 5 cob DIY kit from Cutter was implied to suffice for a 3x3 also (if the cobs are arranged in the proper template) according to the FAQ on the site. If you are on a tight budget and need to get a grow up and going with great results and low start up cost -stick to the HID 600W ballast on a XXXL air cooled hood you already ordered. Get a few grows under your belt, stack some cash and make the move to led.


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## BM9AGS (Jul 2, 2016)

Yeah. If you don't want to drop the cash then next best is hid for sure.


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 2, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> Without getting into too much, I would say as a vague answer you could get away with 400W of cob led lighting to do a sog grow in a 4x4.
> The CX300 that PLC sells is sufficient for a 3x3 alone.The 5 cob DIY kit from Cutter was implied to suffice for a 3x3 also (if the cobs are arranged in the proper template) according to the FAQ on the site. If you are on a tight budget and need to get a grow up and going with great results and low start up cost -stick to the HID 600W ballast on a XXXL air cooled hood you already ordered. Get a few grows under your belt, stack some cash and make the move to led.


Yeah, sounds like my best option at the moment.

Very last question: Someone told me earlier that using "Jacks" nutrients would save alot of money in the long run instead of buying bottles of Canna A+B (What I'm currently using) Is that right? Looks like a rip off from miracle grow. I've never seen anyone use it, so i'm not sure


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## HydroRed (Jul 2, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Yeah, sounds like my best option at the moment.
> 
> Very last question: Someone told me earlier that using "Jacks" nutrients would save alot of money in the long run instead of buying bottles of Canna A+B (What I'm currently using) Is that right? Looks like a rip off from miracle grow. I've never seen anyone use it, so i'm not sure



Sorry man, no experience there.


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 2, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> Sorry man, no experience there.


Alright no worries, just something I needed advice on. I'll keep looking, thanks for all the help


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## mauricem00 (Jul 2, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> The only problem is, I don't have that kind of money yet. Well... that's a lie.. I do - however I feel spending nearly all I have on lights to be a bit ludicrous...  Surely it would be better for my position at the moment to stick with the HPS+Cool-Hood. Atleast it's second best, right?
> 
> I'm still going to pull good numbers with my 4x4/600w regardless if I don't use COBs, then I upgrade from then on out


 I feel your pain. as a retired PU MMJ grower those high end LEDs are well outside my budget. but with my T5s in a small closet grow i'm able to keep the medicine bowl filled and thats all that really matters.I think you will do just fine with the HID light you've already have and may gain more from learning growing methods that will improve your yield. would probably be a more cost effective approach. and remember that LEDs get better every year.and less expensive.an MH/HPS combo will grow great plants.learning to grow well will do a lot more for your yield than expensive grow lights. people are pulling 0.8 GPW with CFLs . but they know how to grow with those lights. technology is no substitute for knowledge and skill


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## coreywebster (Jul 2, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> The only problem is, I don't have that kind of money yet. Well... that's a lie.. I do - however I feel spending nearly all I have on lights to be a bit ludicrous...  Surely it would be better for my position at the moment to stick with the HPS+Cool-Hood. Atleast it's second best, right?
> 
> I'm still going to pull good numbers with my 4x4/600w regardless if I don't use COBs, then I upgrade from then on out


They are expensive for sure! Especially when compared to hps. I have nearly always used 600w hps, These diy cob builds are new to me, just came across them a few months back and thought wow, then worked out the pricing and thought sheeeet!!
You will be fine with your 600w if you have them and all the hoods bought. once your several grow down the road you may or may not want to change. That's all down to you.
At the end of the day I have had many many grows under hps and have great quality and yields.
These guys building DIY lights are pushing the quality and yields and efficiency to the limits and doing some amazing things. To give an idea, someone who used hps and was getting an average of 0.8 grams per watt is now getting 1.9 grams per watt using the same space and growing methods. But the cost for someone starting to grow is high.
I will be joining the league of exceptional lighting brigade myself soon enough. But all in all you will do great things with the set up you have and will be very happy with the results, I promise!

And just a point on Canna A+B, yeah you can use jacks, yeah you can even make your own at a fraction of the cost,but at the end of the day how much is a 5ltr bottle of A+B in comparison to the amount of runs you will get from those bottles.. especially if your hitting a pound a run in a 4x4... Its nothing. If you grow 4 warehouses full then yeah every penny on nutrients adds up but if its a pound or two here and there canna is reliable and simple and not expensive. Not that I would knock anyone wanting to save a buck!


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## mauricem00 (Jul 2, 2016)

coreywebster said:


> They are expensive for sure! Especially when compared to hps. I have nearly always used 600w hps, These diy cob builds are new to me, just came across them a few months back and thought wow, then worked out the pricing and thought sheeeet!!
> You will be fine with your 600w if you have them and all the hoods bought. once your several grow down the road you may or may not want to change. That's all down to you.
> At the end of the day I have had many many grows under hps and have great quality and yields.
> These guys building DIY lights are pushing the quality and yields and efficiency to the limits and doing some amazing things. To give an idea, someone who used hps and was getting an average of 0.8 grams per watt is now getting 1.9 grams per watt using the same space and growing methods. But the cost for someone starting to grow is high.
> ...


 a dispensary up here switched from HIDs to high end leds. they saw no increase in yield but a substantial decrease in cooling cost for a large commercial grow. the best leds have a hard time competing with HIDs and when experienced growers are pulling 1gpw with HIDs I find it difficult to believe that LEDs would be doing that much better.that industry has been plagued with exaggerated claims for the beginning. different lights do require different growing styles.and people that don't know how to grow with HIDs may get lucky with LEDs but I find it hard to believe that an expensive light can make that much difference.there have been dramatic improvements in HIDs and fluorescent in the past few years. the new CMH bulbs have a great spectrum and come very close to matching the mccree curve. of course if I spent $2000 to replace a $200 dollars light.I would rather claim that I made a good choice then admit that I could have done just as well with a cheaper light if I had just learned how to grow


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## Indefinately (Jul 2, 2016)

coreywebster said:


> Hey man, have you not seen one of growmau5s youtube vids, I'm sure there is one where he does one set up with a strain under hps and then shows the next with same space and strain with equal watts at the wall of cobs, possibly the older cxb or cxa 3070s
> 
> Actually.. here it is..


In the last minute of the video, he says that he got about two pounds from 1200 watt HPS and 4 pounds from 1200 watt LEDs.....

I sort of can't believe it to be honest.

That's crazy

Indefinately
" Let there be Green 2016 "


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## BM9AGS (Jul 2, 2016)

Indefinately said:


> In the last minute of the video, he says that he got about two pounds from 1200 watt HPS and 4 pounds from 1200 watt LEDs.....
> 
> I sort of can't believe it to be honest.
> 
> ...


They're are many growers using led to get over 1.5 gpw on this forum. That's from users not salesmen.

Look at this PPFD chart comparing led to hid made by me based off real PPFD readings not sales pitches.


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## mauricem00 (Jul 2, 2016)

seems like led growers may have something in common with fishermen  I've done 3 comparison grows with LEDs and was not impressed


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## BM9AGS (Jul 2, 2016)

mauricem00 said:


> seems like led growers may have something in common with fishermen  I've done 3 comparison grows with LEDs and was not impressed


With what LEDs? If you used something 5watt epiled then you have to realize those LEDs are similar efficiency to hid. They're not good led. All the shit China LEDs use those. So you get shit. So unless you're specifically referring toCree cxb 3590 then that's like using fluorescent.

Show me what LEDs you're referencing


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## Indefinately (Jul 2, 2016)

BM9AGS said:


> t





BM9AGS said:


> With what LEDs? If you used something 5watt epiled then you have to realize those LEDs are similar efficiency to hid. They're not good led. All the shit China LEDs use those. So you get shit. So unless you're specifically referring toCree cxb 3590 then that's like using fluorescent.
> 
> Show me what LEDs you're referencing


Do you have a link to the light your referring to mate?

I look at things fairly logically.

If LEDs did give better yield and reduced power usage with the advantage of less cooling required due to there lower heat production.

Why wouldn't large commercial growers be using LEDs. Only "home" grows tend to use them.

I have never really educated my self about LEDs, might be time to do some reading.

Indefinately
" Let there be Green 2016 "


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## BM9AGS (Jul 2, 2016)

mauricem00 said:


> seems like led growers may have something in common with fishermen  I've done 3 comparison grows with LEDs and was not impressed


Ahh I see you had a Mars hydro (3-5w epiled shit) and VERO 18s(30 something % efficient) in your posts. So you're referencing LEDs that are similar to hid or worse. I too would be led jaded if I spent my money on junk. You can't compare those LEDs to 50 w cxb 3590. They're better LEDs too now my LEDs are not top anymore.


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## BM9AGS (Jul 2, 2016)

Indefinately said:


> Do you have a link to the light your referring to mate?
> 
> I look at things fairly logically.
> 
> ...


It's starting to take off commercially. Before the big led companies weren't targeting horticulture especially MMJ but as things evolve it's gaining traction. The first led companies out using larger cobs (not the 5w diode crap) were not certified so legal grows could not use them because of building code. Now business is quickly catching up.

The hid par chart is from the well known hid PPFD chart that you can quickly Google.

The chart for the Cree cxb3590 is based off many forum members personal par readings using professional par meters.

The 5'x5' light is a diy I made using 4 of timber grow lights 200w diy kits. It's super simple. I have a 5x5' room and I'll start a grow log when my seedlings are bigger but I have 8' ceilings and with pots and light mount and needed distance I should have about 9 plants in a 5x5 that I cal allow to flower up to 5' tall.

As for Mars hydro and all they're Chinese led brothers I'm clueless why they're isn't a class action law suit against all of them with they're bogus claims. I believe one of the led guys said they're LEDs are %30 efficient.


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## mauricem00 (Jul 2, 2016)

BM9AGS said:


> With what LEDs? If you used something 5watt epiled then you have to realize those LEDs are similar efficiency to hid. They're not good led. All the shit China LEDs use those. So you get shit. So unless you're specifically referring toCree cxb 3590 then that's like using fluorescent.
> 
> Show me what LEDs you're referencing


 my first grow was with a mars hydro. my second use cree 3070 3000k ab bin at 700ma and my third use vero 18 4000k at 700ma. the strain was feminized super silver haze grown in peet moss, perlite and compost.did not try 3590s at 1000ma but I had already wasted too much money on LEDs


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## BM9AGS (Jul 2, 2016)

mauricem00 said:


> my first grow was with a mars hydro. my second use cree 3070 3000k ab bin at 700ma and my third use vero 18 4000k at 700ma. the strain was feminized super silver haze grown in peet moss, perlite and compost.did not try 3590s at 1000ma but I had already wasted too much money on LEDs


So you had cxa3070 (old gen) and what was the grow space? Or do you know the PPFD? 
The 16 cxb 3590 in a 5x5 are at 1400ma so 50 watts each cob. 800watts in a 5x5. So I should kill it. But I don't expect professional gpw because it'll be my 3rd grow. I'd be super happy with 1.3gpw which should be doable unless my strains suck.


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 2, 2016)

@HydroRed Did you see my post from yday? i asked which strains you've chosen to grow out - I think I've made a mistake in my "choosings" 

4th page, post 73


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## mauricem00 (Jul 2, 2016)

BM9AGS said:


> How many cxb 3070 and what was the grow space? Or do you know the PPFD?
> The 16 cxb 3590 in a 5x5 are at 1400ma so 50 watts each cob. 800watts in a 5x5. So I should kill it. But I don't expect professional gpw because it'll be my 3rd grow. I'd be super happy with 1.3gpw which should be doable unless my strains suck.


 I used 3 3070s in a 2ft by 1 ft by 5 ft cabinet grow I am a small PU MMJ closet grower.I don't worry about PPFD. I look at radiant power and spectrum. I understand quantum theory but do not enjoy debating it. as i said before I grow plants in soil. not on chock boards.I get 0.8 GPW with my T5s and thats more than enough to keep the medicine bowl filled


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## PetFlora (Jul 2, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Where can I get some of these already built? How much more would it cost me compared to what I was going with, and how much better would the yield at the end be? I know you can't be exact because of other variables, but for example 10%-25% more?? Or is is purely based off efficientness, and not so much on the yield part. But more so energy consumed, and less light-spread


Dude i gave you the name of the company. try your search engine


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 2, 2016)

PetFlora said:


> Dude i gave you the name of the company. try your search engine


Dude... https://www.amaretechnologies.com/products/copy-of-solareclipse-se250

http://timbergrowlights.com/250-watt-cree-cxb3590-5-cob-kit-meanwell-hlg-power-supply-free-shipping/

They're still charging alot, but its a reasonable price for the exact same thing with 3590's instead of the 3070's... What do I get from paying the extra $250? A big sign on my forehead stating "Retard" I assume?


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## BM9AGS (Jul 2, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Dude... https://www.amaretechnologies.com/products/copy-of-solareclipse-se250
> 
> http://timbergrowlights.com/250-watt-cree-cxb3590-5-cob-kit-meanwell-hlg-power-supply-free-shipping/
> 
> They're still charging alot, but its a reasonable price for the exact same thing with 3590's instead of the 3070's... What do I get from paying the extra $250? A big sign on my forehead stating "Retard" I assume?


 4 cxb [email protected] will makes about 20% more light than 4 cxb [email protected] yeah timber.....


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 2, 2016)

BM9AGS said:


> 4 cxb [email protected] will makes about 20% more light than 4 cxb [email protected] yeah timber.....


Still need to do my research on COB's, like I said. It's all new to me


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## BM9AGS (Jul 2, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Still need to do my research on COB's, like I said. It's all new to me


Check out northern grow lights. 

https://northerngrowlights.com/collections/all/products/photon-180clu1825


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 2, 2016)

BM9AGS said:


> Check out northern grow lights.
> 
> https://northerngrowlights.com/collections/all/products/photon-180clu1825


So I'd need 3-4 of those? Surely I'd be better off with some CreeCXB's :s


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## BM9AGS (Jul 2, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> So I'd need 3-4 of those? Surely I'd be better off with some CreeCXB's :s


What is your grow space you want to fill?


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 2, 2016)

BM9AGS said:


> What is your grow space you want to fill?


It's in the title, man..


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## BM9AGS (Jul 2, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> It's in the title, man..


Ahh right. So many threads. Yeah, you'd get more PPFD for your dollar with the timber diy kits.


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## DesertGrow89 (Jul 2, 2016)

Build a couple of these but the 3590s, dealing with HID heat in a tent can be a pain if you aren't running AC.


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## HydroRed (Jul 2, 2016)

BM9AGS said:


> 4 cxb [email protected] will makes about 20% more light than 4 cxb [email protected] yeah timber.....


I dont know about cxb3590's making 20% more light, but they do run a bit more efficient than the BB bin cxb3070's...and not by a huge margin.
Im currently using 8 cxb3070's BB bin with 2 Meanwell 185 1400mA drivers. If I were to add another 200W bar it would be equivelent to my 1000W HPS


mauricem00 said:


> a dispensary up here switched from HIDs to high end leds. they saw no increase in yield but a substantial decrease in cooling cost for a large commercial grow. the best leds have a hard time competing with HIDs and when experienced growers are pulling 1gpw with HIDs I find it difficult to believe that LEDs would be doing that much better.that industry has been plagued with exaggerated claims for the beginning. different lights do require different growing styles.and people that don't know how to grow with HIDs may get lucky with LEDs but I find it hard to believe that an expensive light can make that much difference.there have been dramatic improvements in HIDs and fluorescent in the past few years. the new CMH bulbs have a great spectrum and come very close to matching the mccree curve. of course if I spent $2000 to replace a $200 dollars light.I would rather claim that I made a good choice then admit that I could have done just as well with a cheaper light if I had just learned how to grow


This would only make sense for them to do this as an "upgrade" if they matched light output to footprint of the HID's they were replacing. 600W of COB LED is comparable to a 1000W HID. They should have seen a serious reduction in power consumption just on the lights alone. Plus the led run cooler so they would also see a reduction of cooling costs like you mentioned. Doesnt make any sense to replace a 1000W hid light with 1000W of COB LED only to experience savings on cooling costs. Its just not economical for larger grows to do it since it has the upfront cost and the waiting period to get back in the black with savings from the efficiency upgrade. There is too much info out there to deny that CREE COB LED's grow great weed at a fraction of the cost for operation and can supply proper amounts of light comparable to HID at a fraction of the operating cost.
This is why I lead with "without getting into it too much" a few posts back haha


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 2, 2016)

DesertGrow89 said:


> Build a couple of these but the 3590s, dealing with HID heat in a tent can be a pain if you aren't running AC.


Yeah, 3rd page I think I posted what my setup is. I've bought the XXXL dominator Air-Cooled hood


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## HydroRed (Jul 2, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> @HydroRed Did you see my post from yday? i asked which strains you've chosen to grow out - I think I've made a mistake in my "choosings"
> 
> 4th page, post 73


Ive run quite a few strains, but never picked a strain solely on the purpose of growing out a sog. I have plant count maximums so I dont do large plant count sog. I can recommend that you stick with hybrids for sog. Indicas grow short and bushy as to where sativas grow tall. Considering you dont have much restriction for headspace in your tent, I think you could run whatever you wanted but believe you would do best with a hybrid. Harden the clones off in the light for a few days then throw em right into flower. Anything with any mentionable percentile of sativa in it will stretch the first 2 - even 3 weeks or so of flower. You'll be good with whatever you already have ordered. If I were to run a 36 plant sog in a 4x4 I would go with a 50/50 hybrid or a sativa dom and take the extra week of flower vs the 2 weeks veg time a heavy indica dom would likely need before the flip. Hope this makes sense.


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## BM9AGS (Jul 2, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> I dont know about cxb3590's making 20% more light, but they do run a bit more efficient than the BB bin cxb3070's...


Cxb 3590 from 3070 would be a gainof about 45.4% to 56.3% efficiency (24% more light/W) at 50 w each cob.


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 2, 2016)

HydroRed said:


> Ive run quite a few strains, but never picked a strain solely on the purpose of growing out a sog. I have plant count maximums so I dont do large plant count sog. I can recommend that you stick with hybrids for sog. Indicas grow short and bushy as to where sativas grow tall. Considering you dont have much restriction for headspace in your tent, I think you could run whatever you wanted but believe you would do best with a hybrid. Harden the clones off in the light for a few days then throw em right into flower. Anything with any mentionable percentile of sativa in it will stretch the first 2 - even 3 weeks or so of flower. You'll be good with whatever you already have ordered. If I were to run a 36 plant sog in a 4x4 I would go with a 50/50 hybrid or a sativa dom and take the extra week of flower vs the 2 weeks veg time a heavy indica dom would likely need before the flip. Hope this makes sense.


Gotcha, alright. SSDD has I believe 4-5 different phenotypes, hopefully I can find a nice sativa Dom. If not which would you recommend? Wonder Woman is supposed to be good for SOG, found that from growweedeasy, might be wrong :s


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## HydroRed (Jul 2, 2016)

BM9AGS said:


> Cxb 3590 from 3070 would be a gainof about 45.4% to 56.3% efficiency (24% more light/W) at 50 w each cob.


I didnt think the difference was that considerable since the binning was determined at 2400mA @85*C for the CXB3590's
and 1900mA @ 85*C for the same bin CXB3070's (which both of these were referenced at BB bins at 3500K on the cree data sheets). The 3590s were binned at a higher mA to achieve the numbers it has listed in the cree data sheet. I dont want you to think I'm trying to ague, I certainly dont want to give that impression but more to understand and learn something about this. Im relatively new to COB LED's.


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## PetFlora (Jul 3, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> Dude... https://www.amaretechnologies.com/products/copy-of-solareclipse-se250
> 
> http://timbergrowlights.com/250-watt-cree-cxb3590-5-cob-kit-meanwell-hlg-power-supply-free-shipping/
> 
> They're still charging alot, but its a reasonable price for the exact same thing with 3590's instead of the 3070's... What do I get from paying the extra $250? A big sign on my forehead stating "Retard" I assume?


well, it is a reasonably priced kit that takes most of the DIY gone bad out of it, BUT, some DIY leaders are beginning to see that supplementing CoBs with key spectrum discrete monos _pays huge dividends_

do you even now the difference between 3070s and 3590s, or are you just a follower?

I'll let you decide whether you should tattoo Retard on your forehead.


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## Carolina Dream'n (Jul 3, 2016)

A 630w CMH would blow away that 1000w easily. And cost less on power bill. If your buying new equipment now a days, standard HID lighting is outdated. It is not the best choice IMO.

They make inner and outer dimension flood trays, so poeple can fit them in tents. Look into it. Your local hydroshop should know about them. HydroFarm OD trays.


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## TheChemist77 (Jul 4, 2016)

i love my ceramic 315watt,, way better than my old hps/mh grows....


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## Feisty1UR (Jul 4, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> i love my ceramic 315watt,, way better than my old hps/mh grows....


What wattage were your MH/HPS bulbs?


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## nevergoodenuf (Jul 4, 2016)

A friend has a test going for me against a 315 and a double 315. The veg results speak for themselves. All conditions were equal. Led is a mix of 4000k and 3000k @ 500 watts (so not even a veg light). Flowering results will be in a couple months.


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## TheChemist77 (Jul 5, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> What wattage were your MH/HPS bulbs?


over my 4'x6' table i ran 3 400 watt hps, then 2 400 hps 1 400 mh, after that 2 600 watt hps, and did 2 runs with a 1k hps,, yields wer best with the 2 600's, over 20years of growing with hps/mh..in 2013 i bought a couple 315 watt cmh, and tested thinking no way could 1 315 cmh compare to a 600 watt hps,,,well 1 315 is not equivilent to 600 watts hps but is far more efficient,,1 315 is more like running 450 watts hps,2 315's at a total of 630 watts is comparable to a 1k hps, and 3 315's at a total of 945 watts beats out 2 600 watt hps at 1200watt total...yields under 3 315's (945watts) pull over 1300 grams dry weight and plants finish a week sooner and overall health of plants (crystal production,densness of buds etc.)way better than under hps or the hps/mh combo..


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## Woyaboy (Jul 5, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> I'm trying to find out which would be a better light source for yield, so much debate...
> 
> I made so many mistakes in my first grow, I'm trying to correct everything this time around. upgrade everything so it's all at its best possible potential.
> 
> How much did you end up with roughly from a 600?, If you could control the heat would you go with a 1000w. In your own opinion.


Take the fact that their is so much debate to be that their is more than one way to skin a cat and there is no best way, just the best way for YOU.


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## Indefinately (Jul 5, 2016)

Woyaboy said:


> Take the fact that their is so much debate to be that their is more than one way to skin a cat and there is no best way, just the best way for YOU.


The best way gives you the stickiest and heaviest bud. 
At a reasonable cost.
Start up and ongoing cost.....

Some care more about cost then quality.
Others care more about quality then cost.
It's a balancing act really.


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## Shag Pile (Jul 6, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> over my 4'x6' table i ran 3 400 watt hps, then 2 400 hps 1 400 mh, after that 2 600 watt hps, and did 2 runs with a 1k hps,, yields wer best with the 2 600's, over 20years of growing with hps/mh..in 2013 i bought a couple 315 watt cmh, and tested thinking no way could 1 315 cmh compare to a 600 watt hps,,,well 1 315 is not equivilent to 600 watts hps but is far more efficient,,1 315 is more like running 450 watts hps,2 315's at a total of 630 watts is comparable to a 1k hps, and 3 315's at a total of 945 watts beats out 2 600 watt hps at 1200watt total...yields under 3 315's (945watts) pull over 1300 grams dry weight and plants finish a week sooner and overall health of plants (crystal production,densness of buds etc.)way better than under hps or the hps/mh combo..


When buying a cmh setup. Do you buy 1 bulb for entire grow or 2 bulbs at different colour temps? Say for when you switch from veg to flower, as one would with a mh/hps combo. 

You're really selling these lights to me so far.


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## TheChemist77 (Jul 7, 2016)

Shag Pile said:


> When buying a cmh setup. Do you buy 1 bulb for entire grow or 2 bulbs at different colour temps? Say for when you switch from veg to flower, as one would with a mh/hps combo.
> 
> You're really selling these lights to me so far.


just one bulb,, i recommend the 3,000k agro bulb for both veg and flower.. that one bulb will last 3 years w/out replacement.. alot of guys are opting for the 4100k bulb for veg and the 3k for flower,however imo and ive been told by boulder lamp co, that the 3k agro bulb is best used for both veg and flower.. using the 41k for veg then the 3k for flower promotes stretch wile using the 3k for both will get short,closer nodes,less stretch plants.. pluss bulbs are like 90-100 bucks a piece now,, in 3 years or by the time its time to replace bulbs, prices may be lower,,,ill hold off and use the 3k alone,,its up to you though,,,grow well n be well


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## bryan bozz (Aug 17, 2016)

I have been an outdoor grower for some time. Due to new Oregon laws I went to indoors and was told I HAD to use phantom or Gavida lamps. Being I don't usually just do what I`m told I researched a lot of lights. A very good friend in in the grower supply business and told me about these new lamps, boulder lamps. So, being I am a bit of a scientist I bought both the boulders and Gavitas. The plants were from the same mom, same room, same dirt, same feed EXACT SAME EVERYTHING except the lights. 30% increase in yield, healthier plants, much bigger and the boulder side was WAY cooler. The power bill was much lower by hundreds of dollars a month. I am selling those other lights and buying another batch of boulders. I am not a dealer for boulder, not a blogger for them and retired military so I just tell the bottom line. If you want bigger and better plants with a larger yield then go boulder lamps. Jake is THE MAN at Boulder and has always treated me great.


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## HydroRed (Aug 17, 2016)

bryan bozz said:


> I have been an outdoor grower for some time. Due to new Oregon laws I went to indoors and was told I HAD to use phantom or Gavida lamps. Being I don't usually just do what I`m told I researched a lot of lights. A very good friend in in the grower supply business and told me about these new lamps, boulder lamps. So, being I am a bit of a scientist I bought both the boulders and Gavitas. The plants were from the same mom, same room, same dirt, same feed EXACT SAME EVERYTHING except the lights. 30% increase in yield, healthier plants, much bigger and the boulder side was WAY cooler. The power bill was much lower by hundreds of dollars a month. I am selling those other lights and buying another batch of boulders. I am not a dealer for boulder, not a blogger for them and retired military so I just tell the bottom line. If you want bigger and better plants with a larger yield then go boulder lamps. Jake is THE MAN at Boulder and has always treated me great.



Claims not a vendor......first post ever is a pitch. Welcome to RIU


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## purplehays1 (Aug 17, 2016)

Feisty1UR said:


> I've heard waaay too many controversial topics on people saying CMH, or Gavita are better than HPS, MH lighting setups. They never come to a final conclusion..
> 
> Apparently you can get away with 315w of light from a CMH, and still pull the same numbers from a 600w Air-cooled HPS. According to statistics the CMH has 4x PAR but I don't know if that's a myth or true..
> 
> ...


600w should be plenty for a 4ftx4ft. Ive never used anything but HPS so no recommendation there. You can probably get more weight with a 1000w but it will be overkill.


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## Crab Pot (Aug 22, 2016)

bryan bozz said:


> I have been an outdoor grower for some time. Due to new Oregon laws I went to indoors and was told I HAD to use phantom or Gavida lamps. Being I don't usually just do what I`m told I researched a lot of lights. A very good friend in in the grower supply business and told me about these new lamps, boulder lamps. So, being I am a bit of a scientist I bought both the boulders and Gavitas. The plants were from the same mom, same room, same dirt, same feed EXACT SAME EVERYTHING except the lights. 30% increase in yield, healthier plants, much bigger and the boulder side was WAY cooler. The power bill was much lower by hundreds of dollars a month. I am selling those other lights and buying another batch of boulders. I am not a dealer for boulder, not a blogger for them and retired military so I just tell the bottom line. If you want bigger and better plants with a larger yield then go boulder lamps. Jake is THE MAN at Boulder and has always treated me great.


I'm very interested in Boulder lamps. Great to hear such a positive review. Did you go with the LED argo attachment?


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## themullet (May 14, 2017)

CUrious as to opinion on a 220 w draw 1000w equivalant led measuring 12x18 " fixture is capable of producing quality smoke in a 4x4 tent. Im thinking another light is going to be needed. Its 33000 lumens over 3x3.5 ft coverage


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## coreywebster (May 14, 2017)

themullet said:


> CUrious as to opinion on a 220 w draw 1000w equivalant led measuring 12x18 " fixture is capable of producing quality smoke in a 4x4 tent. Im thinking another light is going to be needed. Its 33000 lumens over 3x3.5 ft coverage


Any light right now that claims 1000w equivalent but draws 220w is lies I'm afraid dude. The most efficient LEDs at 220w draw would probably be equivalent too 400w hps maybe a little bit more.


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## PetFlora (May 14, 2017)

TheChemist77 said:


> just one bulb,, i recommend the 3,000k agro bulb for both veg and flower.. that one bulb will last 3 years w/out replacement.. alot of guys are opting for the 4100k bulb for veg and the 3k for flower,however imo and ive been told by boulder lamp co, that the 3k agro bulb is best used for both veg and flower.. using the 41k for veg then the 3k for flower promotes stretch wile using the 3k for both will get short,closer nodes,less stretch plants.. pluss bulbs are like 90-100 bucks a piece now,, in 3 years or by the time its time to replace bulbs, prices may be lower,,,ill hold off and use the 3k alone,,its up to you though,,,grow well n be well



Hmmm, 4100K would keep plants short with tighter inter nodes. _3k makes plants stretch_, how could starting with 4100 then switching to 3K cause stretch compared to 3k throughout?


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## Wigiberto (May 14, 2017)

You cannot go wrong with either 2 315 LEC ( Ceramic Metal Halide) lights OR ONE 630 LEC. 

Low heat. Less energy usage, more savings, higher quality buds IMO with more trichome coverage.


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## themullet (May 15, 2017)

coreywebster said:


> Any light right now that claims 1000w equivalent but draws 220w is lies I'm afraid dude. The most efficient LEDs at 220w draw would probably be equivalent too 400w hps maybe a little bit more.


KInd of what i was thinking. Already made the decision to invest in a second light. So ill have two primary lights and a pair of supplemental flouros. Doing a run of autos for a cheap kick.


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## Jeeyah (May 15, 2017)

9-12 COBs (CXB3590)


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## TheChemist77 (May 15, 2017)

PetFlora said:


> Hmmm, 4100K would keep plants short with tighter inter nodes. _3k makes plants stretch_, how could starting with 4100 then switching to 3K cause stretch compared to 3k throughout?


the larger the difference in kelvins from veg to flower the more stretch.. just like going from a 6500k mh in veg to a 3000k hps in flower = alot of stretch,,, going from 4100k cdl veg to 3000k cdl in flower less stretch than the previous but more than using the same bulb.. if u grew w/ mh alone yield would be less but very minimul stretch,, if u use hps alone they would be taller than mh aolone but u also get a better yield.. most people prefer mh in veg then hps in flower because the mh in veg creates a short stocky plant then put them under the hps in flower they can triple in height in the first 3 weeks,, the stretch actually helps the bud sites get more light and we all know the far red from hps is way better than mh...anyways the rule is the larger the difference in kelvins the larger the stretch...


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## Big smo (May 19, 2017)

I just finished up a 4x4 space with 4-50 watt cobs and pulled 13oz. Not epic by any means but an easily manageable space with low wattage. 

This is the second round going in here now.


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## PetFlora (May 20, 2017)

Either way, that's either $3600 made or saved


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## widowmaker31 (May 23, 2017)

Not 4x4 - but close enough to count  Fluence check them out -


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## Nick42 (May 28, 2017)

Feisty1UR said:


> I've heard waaay too many controversial topics on people saying CMH, or Gavita are better than HPS, MH lighting setups. They never come to a final conclusion..
> 
> Apparently you can get away with 315w of light from a CMH, and still pull the same numbers from a 600w Air-cooled HPS. According to statistics the CMH has 4x PAR but I don't know if that's a myth or true..
> 
> ...


 this is what I just set up. Led kits I got online. I'm guesstimating equivalent to about 800w hid. maybe a little less. Ran it full blast lastnight for a couple hrs and only reached a high of about 90° 6" from the lights and it went down to 80 at the floor. That's with no ventilation. Might be an option for you.


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## mrazz (Jan 3, 2018)

If I have a 4 x 4 grow tent but only have two plants one white widow and one Jack Herer does that mean I can get by with less wattage / lumens. I am a first-time grower with my plants having nodes about a half inch to 1 inch apart and I'm getting ready to flower I have a 2 by 4 4 Lamp T8 6500 k above with each plant having one 14.5 watt 5000 K LED directly above I'm currently going to have 4 9.5 Watt 5000k LEDs around the sides of my plants I need to purchase a light for flowering to hang above any ideas with my configuration I appreciate it first time poster love every minute of it. Would like to stick with LEDs that will do my whole grow tent


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## Lucky Luke (Jan 3, 2018)

mrazz said:


> If I have a 4 x 4 grow tent but only have two plants one white widow and one Jack Herer does that mean I can get by with less wattage / lumens. I am a first-time grower with my plants having nodes about a half inch to 1 inch apart and I'm getting ready to flower I have a 2 by 4 4 Lamp T8 6500 k above with each plant having one 14.5 watt 5000 K LED directly above I'm currently going to have 4 9.5 Watt 5000k LEDs around the sides of my plants I need to purchase a light for flowering to hang above any ideas with my configuration I appreciate it first time poster love every minute of it. Would like to stick with LEDs that will do my whole grow tent


https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=you+tube+the+grow+boss+how+much+light&view=detail&mid=CA324A8D293734546918CA324A8D293734546918&FORM=VIRE


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## loudog1983 (Jul 1, 2018)

Feisty1UR said:


> I've heard waaay too many controversial topics on people saying CMH, or Gavita are better than HPS, MH lighting setups. They never come to a final conclusion..
> 
> Apparently you can get away with 315w of light from a CMH, and still pull the same numbers from a 600w Air-cooled HPS. According to statistics the CMH has 4x PAR but I don't know if that's a myth or true..
> 
> ...


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## loudog1983 (Jul 1, 2018)

Feisty1UR said:


> I've heard waaay too many controversial topics on people saying CMH, or Gavita are better than HPS, MH lighting setups. They never come to a final conclusion..
> 
> Apparently you can get away with 315w of light from a CMH, and still pull the same numbers from a 600w Air-cooled HPS. According to statistics the CMH has 4x PAR but I don't know if that's a myth or true..
> 
> ...


yes you can but you have to be a expert grower because you have to know how to use the spectrum of cmh light i had 2 315w and all i could pull is 12oz so i got a 600w hps


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## Tas devil (Jul 3, 2018)

TheChemist77 said:


> over my 4'x6' table i ran 3 400 watt hps, then 2 400 hps 1 400 mh, after that 2 600 watt hps, and did 2 runs with a 1k hps,, yields wer best with the 2 600's, over 20years of growing with hps/mh..in 2013 i bought a couple 315 watt cmh, and tested thinking no way could 1 315 cmh compare to a 600 watt hps,,,well 1 315 is not equivilent to 600 watts hps but is far more efficient,,1 315 is more like running 450 watts hps,2 315's at a total of 630 watts is comparable to a 1k hps, and 3 315's at a total of 945 watts beats out 2 600 watt hps at 1200watt total...yields under 3 315's (945watts) pull over 1300 grams dry weight and plants finish a week sooner and overall health of plants (crystal production,densness of buds etc.)way better than under hps or the hps/mh combo..


Great info dude.You have pretty much sold me on cmh with your posts..my friend that has bout the same experience as you with hps wants to go 1000hps over a 5x5 ,but i want to put my stamp on it,and i havnt even one grow under my belt.2 cmh seems very economical in power usage compared to the 1000.he wants just 4 plants with a 6 week flower period .but ive been picking strains to use between 45 days to 55 etc.all indica dominant ,femmed seeds.i think he wants to veg for about 6 weeks but that seems waay to long to go with the 6 weeks flower to produce 22 oz from the 4 which to me seems a little low for 1000watt light thats a little over .6 gr/watt.by what ive read i should get that with 2 315s..should i do what i think .


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## RippedCittee (Nov 14, 2018)

HydroRed said:


> You are correct with the first part of your reply. The amount of plants like I mentioned is a way to utilize the space and fill your canopy without all the work of training to make the plants fit your canopy to recieve equal light among the tops of all of the plants.
> A flat canopy is achieved by training different plants to be equal in height by different means like lst/hst/topping/scrogging etc. If you have small plants, but many of them then there is no need to "fill your canopy" since all the plants will be recieving equal amounts of light top and bottom and the area to be filled is full and maxed out to a point where one plant isnt getting more light than another. If you run many small plants vs 4 larger plants that need to be topped/scrogged etc and vegged for a long period of time then you are utilizing your canopy faster with less time and work involved. In a 4x4 canopy you will need to work to fill it to its capacity to provide the best yield vs just putting many small plants under the same light in the same area. I hope this makes sense.


Hey hydro I know this is a bit of a throwback but in relation to this debate of less large plants vs. more small plants, does the end yield/ quality differ between the two or can you expect fairly similar outcome either way?


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## Blue back (Nov 15, 2018)

I give another vote for 315s. You can pack them in and run cooler and more efficien then HP'S. But this is the reason everyone is switched to CMH around me, the resin they pack on. High end bulbs have ridiculous UV's and that's great for resin output but very bad for your skin. I'm sold as well as many others on them right now. Things change fast in the lighting industry.


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## Blue back (Nov 15, 2018)

My rule of thumb is 3x3 for coverage from 315s and dropped down to 15 inches from canopy. They can go much tighter in coverage but not much in highth. And buy the high end bulbs from start Phillips or Hortilux. Big difference. Throw away the stock bulbs... LED's came a long ways but for sure got a ways to go. I believe they will rock someday. But not now.


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## Blue back (Nov 15, 2018)

nxsov180db said:


> You must not know much about leds :/


LOL


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## Blue back (Nov 15, 2018)

I new that was coming. People hate to hear and think they didn't spend there money on the best they could have. LEDs can't hold a candle to CMH pound for pound period. Good luck


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## Blue back (Nov 15, 2018)

Haven't. But there piled up in the corner all my friends basements that have tried them. There's lots and lots of them used for sale real cheap. One day maybe


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## Blue back (Nov 15, 2018)

I'm done your just being ridiculous now. Never said there all junk. This thread is for best in a 4x4. LED would not be my choice at all. I think many would agree and obviously disagree. Peace


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## Blue back (Nov 15, 2018)

No I didn't even read the whole tread. May be repeating what others have said, if so there right. You have no clue who I am and what I know. So what's best the blue, green, red, purple, yellow, white? Fill me in led man


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## Blue back (Nov 16, 2018)

nxsov180db said:


> Christmas tree lights


Very true

I will say the potential of LED is endless. Like I said to begin with in my opinion there not there yet.


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## RippedCittee (Nov 17, 2018)

Anybody know of a reputable 315 cmh hood/reflector (I think that's what they are called) with a ballast? Found a couple but the price variance is large and there isn't much good info as far as the quality of them. Thanks in advance


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## PrometheanLeaf (Nov 17, 2018)

https://hydrobuilder.com/grow-light-bulbs-ballasts-hoods/lec-grow-lights-541/growers-choice-grower-s-choice-315w-cmh-all-in-one-fixture-with-bulb.html

4k bulb = veg
3k bulb = full cycle
3k-r = flower


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## Blue back (Nov 17, 2018)

A good unit will run about $300. Unless it's one on sale cheap ones are just that cheap. I run 2 infinite spectrums for every 4'x4'.Don't buy discontinued models. There are a lot of good ones out there. Like I already mentioned if it comes with a bulb buy a new one anyways. Most come with cheap bulbs. I believe it's Sun Systems that has a Phillips with it new, which would be a good choice. Just not there discontinued models. I run Hortilux bulbs.


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## Blue back (Nov 17, 2018)

PrometheanLeaf said:


> https://hydrobuilder.com/grow-light-bulbs-ballasts-hoods/lec-grow-lights-541/growers-choice-grower-s-choice-315w-cmh-all-in-one-fixture-with-bulb.html
> 
> I should have said $300 but on sale or a good search you should pay about $250-260. $300 with 20% off is like $254. So buy a $300 light but look to pay $260 for it. And another $60-$80 for a quality bulb.


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## RippedCittee (Nov 18, 2018)

hell yeah thank you guys! i appreciate the links.



stay high


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## PrometheanLeaf (Nov 18, 2018)

https://www.sunplix.com/product/315w-cmh-grow-light-fixture/

Just went on sale,


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