# NEW NFT (nutrient film technique) SOG SETUP



## sherriberry (Nov 4, 2009)

ive been doing a lot of thinking the past couple weeks, and ive come up with something awesome i think..

originally i was going to build a custom NFT gutter system, and have the gutters go back and forth, lower and lower each pass, long 8 foot guys...

but the drawback was the hights of lights and plants would varry gutter to gutter.

So long story short... ive come up with a solution that is perhaps better than the gutter system.

I will be building this in the next month, but i figure ill put it up here just incase someone has an inovative idea to add before i start construction.

This thread will show in detail how i make it, and how it works out.



HERE IS THE CONCEPT-

Instead of lots of narrow gutters... make one extremely wide (4 ft) gutter, and make it about 8 ft long.

To do this, i will be using an 8x4 flat surface, and building up 4-6 inch walls around it.

It will be water tight, and have a drain on the low side.

It will be sloped long ways... the 8ft length will have the tilt.

Then a top plane will be added that is also 4x8, and this top plane will have pre cut holes for the net pots (whatever you call them... the ones with holes all over) These basket pots will be held by the top plane because the holes will allow them to fit in, but not fall all the way through.

Panda wrap will be placed over the entire top plane to keep light out of non occupied holes, white side up. X's will be cut in the panda wrap to allow the placing of the basket pots into the holes in the top plane.

The water will run from high side to the low side of the bottom plane, and thus allow for NFT to occur as plant roots grow down out of the pots and touch the bottom plane and water flowing over it.

The bottom plane will have a wood frame, kind of like box springs to a matress... that will support the bottom plane.

I plan on using 8 ft 2x4's as the "box springs" that come in direct contact with the under side of the bottom plane. 

Then 4 ft 2x4's perpendicular... under the 8 ft 2x4s, to join them all together and make a ridig frame.

There will be a resevoir, and a strong pump.

The pump will pump up to a 1" pvc pipe that goes between the top and bottm plane... at the high side of the tilt.

This pvc pipe will obviously be about 4ft long and go across the full width of the gutter.

This pvc pipe will have small holes drilled in it, down its entire length, about 4 inches appart from eachother.

The fluid will pour out of these holes evenly, across the full 4 ft width, onto the bottom plane, like a drinking fountain.

The bottom plane will have vertical walls built around the perimeter that are 4-6 inches high (depending on how deep the basket pots being used sit below the top plane.

The top plane sits on top of these vertical perimeter walls.

Glue or screws can be used to mount the walls to the bottom plane's perimeter, and ultimately EVERY SEAM will be caulked with a silicone tube gun.

At the bottom of the tilt, there will be a drain or drains that lead to drainage hoses back to the main resevoir.

These drains will have some sort of a protective screen built prior to the drain holes, so that roots and other debris CANT ENTER THE RESEVOIR via the drainage tube(s). (keep them away from the pump!)

A trap door will be put in the top plane (or simply a hole that is covered with panda wrap) which allows access to the screens for debris removal and cleaning.

I plan on this 4x8 being able to hold upwards of 150 plants IF one choses to cut the holes in the top plane VERY close to eachother.

The top plane will be held up throughout the middle of the structure by support beams sitting upright from the bottom plane, which in turn sits on the wooden "box spring" frame.

I plan on using equally cut lengths of 1 inch diameter pvc pipe as support beams for the top plane to hold it up throughout the middle of the structure, and siliconing them into place on the bottom plane... but not bonding them to the top plane so that the top plane can be removed like a lid, when no plants are present... for cleaning, maintinance to the bottom plane, etc.


The support beams are necessary because the top plane is what holds the weight of the pots and plants, suspending them an inch or so above the bottom plane so that the roots can grow down and feed off the nutrient film water flowing by, as it flows down the incline.

I also plan on putting in some sort of runners, or thin strips that sit about 1/4 of an inch up... and putting them down the 8ft length of the bottom plane, spaced about 4 inches appart. I plan on using weather stripping (unless i find something better) and theses strips will be like LANES for the water.

Otherwise, i feel that the water would all bond together in a single, narrow path, by the bottom of the 8 ft plane, and MISS CERTAIN PLANTS... if that makes sense?

The lanes keep the water spread evenly across the full width (4ft) of the bottom plane, so that all plants above have an equal shot at taking a drink.



Materials:

After wandering around lowes for about an hour, i figured out i want to use the 4 ft, 1 inch diameter pvc pipe with holes dilled every 4 inches down its entire length, corrosponding with the lanes. This pvc pipe will be labled as the "fountain" at the top of the incline.

A hole will be cut in one of the perimeter walls, or the top plane, to allow for the hose to enter the 8ft x 4ft x 6inch box. This hose feeds the main fountain and is attached to the pump in the resevoir.

The material for the planes was the hardest part, but then i found the perfect stuff. There is pvc WALL PANEL that is typically used for bathroom walls. This stuff is rough and course on one side, and prefectly smooth on the other.

I HAVE NOT YET DECIDED IF THE BOTTOM PLANE SHOULD USE THE SMOOTH SIDE UP, OR THE ROUGH SIDE UP... i think both have their advantages... as the rough side will keep the water churning, and perhaps more oxygen, as well as keep the water from accellerating as it goes down the 8 ft length.


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## sherriberry (Nov 4, 2009)

I have not decided yet on the material for the perimeter walls, if it be wood 2x4's wrapped in waterproof tape, and then siliconed into the top of the bottom plane, or if i should use metal L or C beams? or any other ideas???

I will use weather strip spaced about 4 inches apart all the way down the length of the top of the bottom plane, to keep the water lanes, and water evenly divided across the 4 ft width of the incline bottom plane.

I will use fiberglass screen (like the stuff used in your windows to keep the bugs out) to guard the drain holes at the bottom of the incline that drain back to the resevoir.

I will use plastic fittings at the drain site to attach to rubber hoses that gravity feed back to the resevoir. I will use these fittings also to attach the FOUNTAIN 4 ft pvc pipe, to the rubber hose that it fed by the pump in the resevoir.

I plan on cutting equal sized holes all across the top plane, to allow for the pot baskets to fit down in and suspend from the top pvc panel plane... which is held up by the perimeter walls, and the pvc support beams through-out the middle between the top and bottom planes.

I plan on using silicone to seal every seam, and make the bottom plane and the walls all water tight. The top plane will lift on and off like a lid. I might cut the top plane into sections to allow for some plants to remain in place while other sections of the top are lifted off for cleaning.

I plan on putting a trap door or hole covered by panda wrap, down by the screen which protects the drain, so that debris can be removed without lifting off the top plane. 


The holes cut in the top plane will be spaced close together at the top of the incline, and then one could space them farther appart towards the bottom. This allows a person to grow the plants, and move them down to spots where the plants have more space away from one another as they progress, like an assembly line.

If the plants are pruned in SOG method, and kept thin, then i see no reason why this couldnt hold upwards of 150 plants for 4x8 ft area if small enough pot baskets are used, and small enough holes are cut in the top plane and put close together.

I plan on building 2 of these boxes, one for MH lights, and one for the HPS bloom lights.

In a 9x9 area, 2 of these "boxes" could be placed easily, and a panda curtain could be used to keep light cycles seperate.

I plan on the top of the box to be about 2 ft off the floor, and the bottom plane to be about 1.5 ft off the floor, and the resevoir to fit under that, like a large wide short rubbermaid container.

Hopefully i did a good job describing what i plan on doing. I plan on just building one initially, and maybe just switching out lights to hps, and seeing how the plants do... or building a second one in time for once the plants get ready for bloom phase, and just move them over.

The baskets should be able to pull in and out with ease.

The panda wrap on the top planes job will be to keep ALL LIGHT OUT of the box to avoid algea bloom.


ADVANTAGES I SEE TO THIS SETUP OVER OTHERS...

1. one resevoir, and pump is protected by screens by the drain.
2. Holds as many plants as you want it to... multiple top pvc panels could be used, so you could switch just the top if you wanted to grow bushier or thinner plants.
3. MINIMAL GROW MEDIUM WASTE. The basket pots are recyclable, and simple loose rockwool could be used, or even stones that have a larger diameter than the pot baskets holes.
4. EVEN DISPURSEMENT OF NUTES TO ALL PLANTS VIA THE LANES.
5. ROOTS CAN GROW INFINITE LENGTHS, AND THUS PLANTS CAN ABSORB MORE NUTES, AND THUS GROW LARGER THAN IN ANY OTHER MEDIUM.
6. ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO PURCHASE ALL PARTS NEEDED FOR BUILD FOR AROUND 200 DOLLARS... (with the exception of the pot baskets, panda wrap and pump) very cheap!
7. Foggers or sprayers could ALSO be added within the box! 4 Bowl like resevoir holes could be cut in the bottom plane, and a bowl siliconed into place, and a fogger placed in that recessed bowl, which would in turn fill with water, and stay full at all times... (pump stays on at all times, so water would always be flowing by, keeping the recesses full) This could fill the entire 8x4 ft box with fog, aiding in evern more nute absorbtion. Sprayers could be used, but this would require additional plumbing.... but either foggers or sprayers could be added at any time, as well as drip water systems into the top of the pot baskets.... but i think this would be overkill personally.

If you dont understand the setup... give me some time, and once i start building i will put up some pics and let you know how it goes!

Please throw out any other additional ideas that might help me with my build. Thanks guys!!


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## DubB83 (Nov 5, 2009)

Wow ... alot of typing and no photos...


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## dripdrew (Nov 5, 2009)

I think your doing alot of work and money when you could just buy a system and save yourself alot of time and hassle and possibly money and room lol when a cheaper system could produce the same yeilds along with if you ever move wtf do you plan to do to get it out? It sounds huge and youd have to destroy it getting it moved... unless u kno how to build it so u can break it down...


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## sherriberry (Nov 5, 2009)

dripdrew said:


> I think your doing alot of work and money when you could just buy a system and save yourself alot of time and hassle and possibly money and room lol when a cheaper system could produce the same yeilds along with if you ever move wtf do you plan to do to get it out? It sounds huge and youd have to destroy it getting it moved... unless u kno how to build it so u can break it down...


 

yeah... ive decided im going to build a 4x4 box first... for the size reasons you mention.. and just to test the setup... but if it works as i hope, then an 8x4 will be coming soon after.

they sell 4x8 plastic latice at lowes, and i found that the pots fit perfect in the holes. I will use that at the top plane.

as far as holding as many plants as other systems... the 4x8 latice from lowes has 233 holes in it...

you show me a sog technique that allows for 233 plants in a 4x8 ft area... and costs 200 bucks, and ill buy it!


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## DubB83 (Nov 6, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> yeah... ive decided im going to build a 4x4 box first... for the size reasons you mention.. and just to test the setup... but if it works as i hope, then an 8x4 will be coming soon after.
> 
> they sell 4x8 plastic latice at lowes, and i found that the pots fit perfect in the holes. I will use that at the top plane.
> 
> ...


223 plants in a 4x8, now I know your green behind the ears. A lot of reading and no growing experience. 

Good luck getting that many plants in that space, two plants vegged properly will fill that space better and give you more buds than a mini SoG. Since you also sound like your new to the hobby, not saying you haven't done your reading, because it seems you have and that is good you should maybe start and try and veg a plant as big as you can and fill the lattice with that. I suggest using nylon netting. It will block less light.

Start small and grow.

Get you some CFLs (Daylight 6500k) and some coco coir and perlite and some seedling starting trays. Start off a small box, grow a mom. Make clones. Veg your clones for a month and sex them. Kill male flowers, there will be some. Fill your 4x4 with 9-12 month vegged clones under a 600W - 1000W digital. This is the best recipe for success with an 8x4 area, I would use 4x4 for a tent for flowering and the other 4x4 area for clones and mothers, maybe get a MH for that area. If you got the space go for it.

Flowering style will be your choice at that point. You can lollipop, ScrOG, or let it grow all natural.

~GG420


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## sherriberry (Nov 6, 2009)

are my 2 sunblaze, 4ft x 2ft, 8 bulb, ho t5's enough?

or how about my 2 cool suns, one with 1000 watt hps, and the other with a 1000 watt MH sunmaster cool delux enough?

as far as the 233 goes, i understand EVENTUALLY the plants will out grow that format.... however... as i said earlier... i plan on building more of these as the plants need more space.

233 plants can, and will fit as long as they are young enough, there is over a 1 inch gap between each 3" diameter pot.

Can i have 233 small plants simultaneously? Id need a lot of clone boxes, agreed...


But my point was... that lattice is a great solution because it already has the holes... so no cutting needed, and it can hold UP TO 233 in a 4x8.

My biggest concern right now is keeping light out of the box, and what im going to make the perimeter walls out of.

i think in addition to the panda wrap, which will have X's cut into it at each hole site...

im going to get some sort of light proof lids from some where, and put a lid over each X if there is not a plant in that hole. The lids will just lay on top of the panda wrap, nothing fancy. Could just be squares of black plastic cut to size... who knows.

Thank you for the advice, and i do agree with you. Lets try not to make negative assumptions


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## johnnywriight (Nov 6, 2009)

empty net cups w/ a collar will fill the holes and block the light


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## dripdrew (Nov 6, 2009)

Well my local store has a 156 site aerogarden thats about 4×4 and i plan on doing two of them for a sog grow...


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## squarepush3r (Nov 6, 2009)

> Wow ... alot of typing and no photos...


^^^^^^^^^^^


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## sherriberry (Nov 6, 2009)

i bought the supplies today, i will start construction tomorrow. Ill have pics up for ya soon!

How much is the one at the store that you saw?

Also, what form of aeroponics does it use? (describe in detail if you can)

And how much is the thing?

Thanks!


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## manwitnoface (Nov 9, 2009)

i am as new to this as an infant is to life, so i have some questions and i would really appreciate if you could provide me with some answeres. How big would a room need to be to hold this type of system. Do you think led lights would be an effective form of lighting[im trying to cut down on energy cost]. If all 150 pots were accupied approximatly how much would i be looking at come harvest time.


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## captain insaneo (Nov 10, 2009)

For the bottom plane I would have used 3/4" plywood or better and used 1x6 on the sides. Use reenforced brackets on the corners and then laid a layer of pvc or epdm pond liner down to make it water tight. All of that stuff can be found at lowes or home depot
$30 for the plywood
$30 for the pond liner
$25 for the 1x6 and a couple of 1x2s for structural support
$10 for all the shit you need to keep it all together.


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## sherriberry (Nov 10, 2009)

plywood is a good idea.

Ive already built it for the most part using 2x4s laid flat to hold the bottom pvc panel plane.

Plywood would have been easier tho for sure.

THe pond liner is a good idea.

It might be something I can still add...

however, making it perfectly flat, AND adding the strips to keep the water in lanes... might be a challange.

WHat are your thoughts?



To manwitnoface-

You could harvest in just this platform... but if you want to set up an assembly line, then youll eventually have to build a second and possibly third one of these, depending on how bushy your plants are during harvest.

Im thinking that this first one that im building will actually hold more plants than 150. Its a lot of fun, it reminds me of a pinball machine kind of... the races, and the water and the drain holes, and directing the water to the drain holes with the races... and im debating on setting up a section for fresh clones, that are still barely rooted, and putting a fogger inside this box, over in one of the corners.

Ive made my final decision on the net pots... after a lot of research, im actually going to go with 2" netpots, and neoprene collars...

after seeing stinkbud's setup, ive realized plants can harvest in these small 2" netpots.

I might cutt he bottoms of them out tho.

One can either go from rapid rooters, and put those in the net pot, or use a fogger cloner, or ez cloner, and put just the collar ont he plant, and not use any rapid rooter or rockwool at all, and let it just hang in free air in the pot.

Im thinking my 5x4 is going to hold possibly 200 plants... and for those of you wondering how im going to do thise using the latice im using, stay tuned... im wrapping the panda wrap to the latice, and cutting a hole in the panda wrap that is only big enough for the 2", and then lining that hole with tape to reinforce it around the edges so the pot doesnt fall through.

But.... i think there is some smaller lattice pattern out there... so im looking to find some for 2" pots.

At this point, the limitation will not be the table, so much as enough cloners and mothers to keep up with keeping this table full.

I went with 2x3 for the top plane support, so the top plane is 2 3/4 above the bottom plane. THis will be perfect for small plants just coming out of clone, as they will not have to grow ling roots to hit the bottom and start feeding.

The plants will need to have water and nutes hand poured on them in the begining.

as i mentioned before, im contemplating designing a sprayer setup inside the box.. in addition to the nft.

The srayer would be on a timer, 1 min on, 5 off. The nft would be constant

THis means 2 pumps are needed... not big ones tho.

If this first table is filled to capacity... AT LEAST 2 flower tables will have to be constructed to keep up with the many veg'ers coming off this table.

The plants take up more space once they are ready to flower, thats why 2 tables would be needed to keep up with this one where the plants are super close to eachother.

Let me know soon on that pond liner stuff, im interested, but not fully familiar with it.


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## sherriberry (Nov 10, 2009)

yeah, i just figured it out...

if one used the pond liner on top of the plywood, and had some double sided THICk tape... the thickness is needed and on purpose...

if the double sided tape was laid longways, and about 3 inches appart, and a person was really careful and took their time laying in the pond liner...

the tape would create the lanes or races.

the lanes are necessary to keep the water evenly distributed across the width of the box, otherwise it will all combine.

Take it one step further... if a person put 1/4 inch pvc down on the plywood first, and set up plumbing for sprayers, and then laid the pond liner in there on top of it, and drilled the holes into the pvc and the pond liner, and had the sprayers stick up through the pond liner.... i dont know if it would leak, but if it didnt, that would be ideal because the pvc would create the lanes.

I think you might have outsmarted me big time captain insaneo


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## sherriberry (Nov 10, 2009)

ps- panda wrap might be cheaper and just as effective as the pond liner stuff...

like i said, i dont know how thick it is or how it works, but ill go check it out at lowes tomorrow


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## streetlegal (Nov 26, 2009)

Sup man, im also building a custom NFT,.. ive built the stinkbud system and have no doubts on the benefits of NFT
Heavy fast yield, no media to lug and wash, reduced maintenance etc..
I almost regret spending the cash on the mateirials to build the Stink set-up and
instead should of built a custom NFT system to the dimensions of my room to maximise yeild/space BUT i cant complain
cos the Stink system helped me get a handle on NFT, understanding it, getting it dialed in etc (shout out to stinkbud, great guy)
so yeh im really interested in seeing
wot you come up with cos im on
the same trip myself, ur on to a good thing so keep it up.. 
As for NFT SOG max yield strain have a look at this green giant x ak47 https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/101347-critical-mass-tree-grow-x-6.html its by spice bros
but i dont think its around anymore
Im running with MR NICE SEEDS black widow (the real white widow) and medicine man (the real white rhino)


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## sherriberry (Nov 27, 2009)

yeah, ive got my table built... no plants in it yet tho... i think i have the setup figured out from start to finish.

It will use the stinkbud setup for flowering.

It will use the table im making for the 1500-3000 ppm veg nutes and a 1000w mh light.

it uses sprayer tubs for cloning.



The clones go the the sprayer tubs. Get about 2 or 3 of them going, holding a total of around 150 plants

I have a transition tub tho (its a gigantic tub sold at lowes that is about 3.5 ft long, and pretty tall... with about 100 holes in the top of it for the 2 inch net pots, with nutes around 600ppm)

Then, once the roots really take off, i move the plants onto the table.

The table will hold 150 plants easy, and actually more... and i only built the 4x5 ft one. There the nutes will be around 1500 im thinking.

From there, they go to the stinkbud setup for flower, because... stinkbuds system keeps the plants seperated enough anyway because by that point they are going to be getting bigger.

A table could be built, but honestly ive come to ask myself "why"? (unless you want to do a sog and are going to be lollipopping)



The best way to build a table is very simple.

Get a piece of 3/4 inch plywood. 

get some pvc pipes, arrange them in long rows down the length of the plywood, one about every 8 inches. Have them all connected by one latteral pipe of much larger diameter either at the top or the bottom.

Drill the holes in the pvc pipe... install around 40-70 sprayers.

Get a 1700 gph pump off ebay for 70 bucks.

build a perimeter wall that sits on top of the plywood. Make this wall as tall as roots need accomidation for.

(if plants are small, use 2x6 wood. If plants are very large and flowering, maybe 2x10 or larger)

Instead of the lattice that im using... 

one should use the pvc sheets for the roof or "lid" to the box, and just drill the 1 7/8 inch holes into that for the 2" netpots.

Also, drill 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch holes in it, and cut pvc pipe slightly longer than the hight of the 2x6 or 2x20 that you are using.

These pvc's will be support beams to hold the lid up throughout the middle of the box, and just sit on top of the panda wrap which ... ill get to.

THe reason you want to run them slightly longer than the hight of the walls is because you want them to stick up through the holes past the hight of the lid... and run a glue bead both on the top and the bottom side of the lid around the support beam to join it to the lid (otherwise its hard to keep them glued to the lid without having the hole in the lid)

The panda wrap is used as a bladder for the whole system. The panda wrap goes over the pvc piping that lays flush on top of the plywood. The pvc piping already has the holes dilled for the sprayers.

The sprayers go THROUGH the panda wrap, into the pvc pipes holes. The sprayers are the only thing that sticks up above the panda wrap. Poke holes in the panda wrap after you have it laid out nice and flat on the plywood, and it will come up and over each pvc pipe, and then back down against the plywood. I used double sided tape.

Then, poke holes in the panda wrap where you feel the pre drilled holes in the pvc pipes.

THen put the sprayers into the pipe through the panda wrap.

You could have a pre drilled hole drilled in the plywood for the drain, or try to figure out a waterfall system like stinkbuds.

The panda wrap comes up and over the side wall 2x6's... a bladder is created. The only hole is the drain hole, install a sandwich style drain sold at hydro stores that screws in and clamps from top and bottom.

obviously put legs under your plywood and give it a slight tilt.

Put the res right below the drain hole.

Get pvc pipe that slides around the drain nipple fitting in the table.

Put a lid on the res, and drill the hole in the lid for the pvc pipe... to exact size.. and the hole will actually HOLD UP the pvc pipe.

Then, the pvc pipe goes verticle up to the drain nipple on the table.

This can be slid up around the nipple, and the lid holds it in place...

WHen you want to get the res out from under the table, just slide the pvc pipe back down into the res, and away from the nipple.

This creates a light tight, leak proof, evaporation resistant system.

The lid... get the silver waterproof tape sold at lowes, and creat a little 1-2 inch flap that comes down from its bottom surface, just instide of where it sits on the wall.

This flap goes all the way around the perimeter.

It keeps it from leaking at the top.

Sprayed water wants to fly out from between the lid and the top of the walls. This flap hangs from the under side of the lid, and sits almost flush against the wall, but is not attached to the wall.... but it prevents flying liquid from hitting the crack between the lid and the wall, and the liquid just drips back down the flap... its like a weather stripping concept... but different.

2 other things... first is... you dont have to shut off your sprayers i dont think like stink does.... the water has plenty of oxygen in it because its spraying.

this then means you dont have to build the fountain head for the contstant nft... the sprayers create the nft.



Id take pictures, but my camera is busted and im tool lazy to buy another.

Soon... sorry guys.


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## creq2 (Dec 2, 2009)

Just FYI for your NFT, this is what I've figured to be best to make an EVEN flood across a plane:

You need to make a trough for the pump to pump water into that goes across, the plane, like a 4ft piece of rain gutter. The pump fills the gutter until it overflows and if you pump fast enough and make it level legnthwise it should produce an even stream.

It does not half to be level widthwise -- and may even be better tilted so it doesn't fill as full, and produces more of an even flow.

There are three basic things to NFT that need to be met and considered carefully in the planning stages:

1) The flow needs to be quick enough so there are no 'dead spots' or spots where the water is pooling up, but not any quicker than you can possibly make it other than that... Too fast of a flow will result in very poor nutrient uptake...

2) The nutrient streams thickness needs to be as close to a 'film' as possible, aka as thin as you can make it without disregarding the aspects of #1..

3) I don't know, everyone says 3 things, you guys start in and help out and turn it into 30!


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## creq2 (Dec 2, 2009)

quick extra reply:
If you use a pvc pipe or hose drill many smaller holes across it, like every 1cm or even 1/2cm apart, it may be better for creating a small film actually, and you can slant the table accordingly..remember to test this all out before mounting/screwing stuff together by making a 4x8' plane like you're planning with the pump and everything assembled, and pumping the stream down it and adjusting the tables angle... get something similar to roots to simulate root mass being there too, like loose rockwool strands or bushes of thin twine or something..

A good thing to remember is the top 1/3rd of the roots like mainly air and just a lil water, the middle likes an air/water mixture, and the bottom of the root can handle a solid water mixture best.. It works all other ways but from all the reading I've done that's pretty much the best..

So a good solution is to make a aero setup inside this and lift the pots up about twice as high as you were thinking (12-16", so the 'base' of the pot is about 8-12" from the stream) and you can use it to spray the roots while they're still forming, before they can reach the film.

If you put a lot of sprayers (you can just drill small holes into PVC pipe or into a hose btw, or you can get little push-in 180 & 360 degree sprayers to put into drilled holes) all the way around where the pots are, and put a small barrier at the end of the table where it drains off so the water level gets to a certain height (about 1/2cm to 1cm deep across the table, doesn't need a slant this way it will just fill up and drain out of the end, and since the sprayers are coming from everywhere there are no dead spots. 

Also this way you can adjust where the sprayers are going and end up with semi dry upper portions of roots, sprayed on where you want it, and a film in the bottom of water for them to suck up as much as they need..

The pond liner is going to be bumpy and make uneven areas and is going to make for pooling problems, I don't know how you're going to solve this other than using a sheet of hard plastic or something like a carpet-cover for an office chair and using caulking(sp?) around the edges where the wood joins to the 2x4's..

I hope this gives you some ideas.. i'm really interested in what you end up doing so I'll be watching your thread..

Boy that ended up being 'quick'.. =P


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## sherriberry (Dec 3, 2009)

i went with the pvc across the top.

it is 3/4 inch.

Holes are 11/64


Holes are every 3 inches.

Water is uniform coming out of all of them.

by far the easiest and best way.


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## SwissCheese (Dec 3, 2009)

Any Pictures?


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## repvip (Dec 12, 2009)

This is sort of a reply to streetlegal--I was also inspired by Stinkbud and used his system for awhile. 

I designed a custom NFT system similar to his design, but it is so simple.

The system is made of:

4"x4" fence posts
1/2" x 3/8" black vinyl tubing
1/2" T-joints (for tubing)
Some 3/4" PVC to hold the fence posts together.

Seeing as how this thread is boring with no pics.. (Sorry! but true) I'm here to spice it up!

Of course there is a rubbermaid reservoir, aerated. The biggest problem I have had was pump size. Used pumps way to big at first... pay attention to flow rate!


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## repvip (Dec 12, 2009)

OP:

I like the idea of a single wide gutter... I have been trying to think of a way to do that..

150+ plants will definitely fit in a 4' x 8' area... My units hold 40 each, and are 5' x 1.5' each..

Not much more to add... I think you have good ideas! Keeping up with clones will be a bitch, but if you time them right you can clone the bottom branches of your veggies before/when you put them into flower.


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## tea tree (Dec 12, 2009)

yu guys ever read about NFT spreader mats. If yu are doing something really wide a spreader mat might be cool. It goes along the bottom and spreads the nutrient solution out evenly along a wide flat area. In drain tubes or fence posts prob not need but in wide flood tray with lid might be cool.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 13, 2009)

A casual few lines: Dr. Lynn P. Morgan


*The nutrient film technique (NFT) was developed during the late 1960's by Dr Allan Cooper at the Glasshouse Crops Research Institute in the U.K. With the NFT system, a thin film of nutrient solution flows through plastic channels, which contain the plant roots with no solid planting media. The root mat develops partly in the shallow stream of recirculating solution and partly above it. It is extremely important to maintain this basic principle of a nutrient film because it ensures the root system has access to adequate oxygen levels. The key requirements in achieving a nutrient film situation are described by Cooper (1996) as being:*

*1) To ensure that the gradient down which the water flows is uniform and not subject to localized depressions, not even a depression of a few millimeters.*

*2) The inlet flow rate must not be so rapid that a considerable depth of water flows down the gradient.*

*3) The width of the channels in which the roots are confined must be adequate to avoid any damming up of the nutrient by the root mat. If inadequate, it is to be expected that yields will be directly proportional to channel width.*

*4) The base of the channel must be flat and not curved, because there will be a considerable depth of liquid along the center of a channel with a curved base, merely because of the shape of the base (Cooper 1996).*

The above definition of NFT is basically as close as one can get to aero without being aero. Aero is typically practiced poorly in small round tubes by many pot growers so the root mass is too large for the size of the channel bottom. This means tube encourages root piling and does not allow for water penetraion to the roots full mass encouraing the growth of anerobic bacteria. The root mass must renmain thin and the water depth is only to waet the thin mass. Deep roost in deep water leads to root rot. NFT is chiefly like except the clearly define that the root mass should be thin and widely spread and that the layer of water is very minimal. Moisture really not running water. Trickles out the end of the channels is more than adequate.


Horticulturalists recommend flat wide channels and water of a very, very minimal depth. The water depth is supposed to be a few millimaters. That is less than one-tenth of an inch deep. Roots recieve the majority of their oxygen from surrounding air not DI in the water. Water DO does not diffuse well through the water surround deep root masses laying in water.


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## streetlegal (Dec 13, 2009)

repvip said:


> This is sort of a reply to streetlegal--I was also inspired by Stinkbud and used his system for awhile.
> 
> I designed a custom NFT system similar to his design, but it is so simple.
> 
> ...


Hey man, im jealous you got the jump on me and are already producing! and those LEDs are doing the job. 
I gather you got rid of the sprayers all along the channel and now pump the water in one end via the vinyl tubing like dedicated NFT now, not aero. 
What cycle is ur pump on?.. And how did you gauge ur ideal flow rate? 
I dont know why more ppl aint growing this way, especially if $$ means something to ya.


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## repvip (Dec 13, 2009)

streetlegal said:


> Hey man, im jealous you got the jump on me and are already producing! and those LEDs are doing the job.
> I gather you got rid of the sprayers all along the channel and now pump the water in one end via the vinyl tubing like dedicated NFT now, not aero.
> What cycle is ur pump on?.. And how did you gauge ur ideal flow rate?
> I dont know why more ppl aint growing this way, especially if $$ means something to ya.


Good question... I will never go back to dirt!

I did get rid of the sprayers... however I think it would work better with sprayers... I just didn't want to use 1000 ez-clone sprayers, haha. Obviously from the pics it is working... 

Once you get "aeroroots" established you are fine without sprayers.. in my experience at least.. I would like to continue spraying for the first two weeks in flowering, so a small design change is in order.


I'm still using the 1/5 cycle.. the same timer is running quite a few pumps on that schedule. It would be nice to have different cycles for nightime, daytime, younger plants, older plants etc. 

To control flow I chose different pump sizes instead. I can tell from direct experience that flow rates of >10 liter/min are *detrimental* to growth! For some reason I thought more was better. Flow rates of ~10 liter/min/channel has been working nice. Currently trying one with the industry recommeded flow rate of 1 liter/min/channel and it is working well, so far, probably the best. This all applies to no sprayers, just NFT.

Not sure how you can control flow rate when using sprayers though... I would need so many.. it would take a pump capable of >20 liter/min/channel to properly operate all of the sprayers... but then again, maybe it doesn't matter in the combo aero/nft situation?

The Dr. Cooper article quoted above is good. Here are a couple more that are interesting:
http://www.agnet.org/library/eb/330/
You really need to read the whole paragraph under 'Aeroroots' 

The problem I am having is, without sprayers, the hanging roots are drying out too much. The plants end up ok, but I am sure yield is suffering. There should be more humidity in the system, to "induce root hairs" in the hanging aeroroots. 

I think you can see how I am leaning... add sprayers. Even just one sprayer at the input, and sealing the system to keep the roots humid, would probably go a long way.


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## skunkcow (Dec 13, 2009)

the single wide gutter approach is sweet and a great idea, I may try this myself, thanks for the pics and info!


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## repvip (Dec 13, 2009)

sherriberry:

Did you end up doing sprayers as the source of the NFT? 

Does this mean you will be running the sprayers constantly?

I was worried about the rez temp creeping up, if I were to run my NFT constantly. Maybe I should try that with a tiny pump first, before adding sprayers.


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## sherriberry (Dec 13, 2009)

sorry not to post sooner, i thought i did last night, come to find out i got an error message i guess...

anyway, a couple things..

nft does have to be a thin layer UNLESS the water contains plenty of oxygen.

there is a grow page some of you might have seen in another forum about a guy growing 42 lbs of bud off 10 plants... and its not a lie... heres the link...

http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f131/42-pound-10-plant-tree-grow-14877/


anyway, ive been brainstormign the past few days trying to figure out if i want to do something like that in my bloom room...

only thing is his strain dna is what utilizes such few plants in such a large space, where as we dont use those genes probably, so im trying to figure out if theres a way to blend his ideas with my own.

I love my veg nft table...

i want to keep it in my assembly line because it is just so easy to work with, as plants get big, you can move them to other holes and away from eachother.

i do not have my sprayers on all the time.. infact very rarely, once every 20 min, and only for 10 sec because it drains my res to where the 1700gph pump starts slurping in air.

i could do it more often, but im trying to save the pump life, and the basic nft pinciple is working GREAT!

i have a fountain (horizontal pvc pipe with holes drilled in it every 3 inches) across the top of the table... this does exactly what it sounds, it spits water out like a drinking fountain would, but in like 30 spots.

The pvc pipes that the sprayers are hooked into sit on the floor of the table.

i drilled the holes first in the pvc, then put a bunch of double sided tape down,
THEN PUT DOWN PANDA WRAP AS THE BLADDER TO KEEP IT ALL WATERPROOF,

THEN put the sprayers THROUGH the panda wrap, into the pipes.

so its white panda wrap, and little red sprayers, and thats all the eye can see.

the pipes are under the panda wrap and make the lanes for the water.

i have simple wood walls around the perimeter of the whole table, and the one big piece of panda wrap comes up and over the walls, and its just draped over the sides.

the the lid can either be latice from lowes, covered in panda wrap (and holes cut for the net pots in the panda wrap)

or, you can get the pvc panel stuff they put in public bathroom walls,

and just use that as a lid and cut holes in it for the net pots.

either way, the lids need support beams, so i just cut 3-4 inch pvc pipe sections, and taped them with some waterproof sticky ass tape to the BOTTOM of the lid.

These beams sit directly on the panda wrap on the floor of the nft table.

My res is under the bottom left corner of the table, where i have 2 drains.

These 2 drains sandwich the panda wrap to the floor, and nipple out under the floor of the nft table...

then the lid of my res, has 2 holes cut that BARELY let the 3/4 inch pvc pipe slide through.. and these two holes HOLD THE PVC PIPE IN PLACE, so all i have to do is slide it up a few inches AROUND the drain nipples, and the water goes down the pipes into the res,

or, i slide them down, and then i can slide the res out sideways from under the table.

The fountain comes through the LID via a single pvc pipe, and unce under the lid, it T's in both directions from the top MIDDLE of the table... and has holes in it all the way across.

i installed a ball valve for pvc pipes in the feed pipe to the fountain so that i could regulate how much flow without buing 10 pumps to figure it out...

im using a 300gph pump, and its more than just a FILM on the floor of the table, but guess what, it doenst matter...

the water gets so much air in it with this system that its working great so far...

i dont even use this valve... and i think one could have an even bigger pump, but i think im happy with mine.

down by the drains, the water gets over an inch deep.

halfway down the table, its about 1/4 inch deep.

up at the top, its film.

all plants everywhere are doing equally as well however.

i keep the sprayes as part of the equation because it adds air to the water by shooting the majority of my res through 50 nozzles.... and i hate the idea of screwing in 50 nozzles into pvc pipes was a lot of time and thumb blisters... wasted.

if i build another, i wont use as many nozzles, and use a smaller pump... this way it doenst havet o drain the res so fast, and i could keep it on constantly.

THe lid btw has a flap about 3 inches in from the edge, all the way around the perimeter that hangs down INSIDE THE TABLE, and this flap keeps water from flying out the crack between the lid and the walls, AND IT KEEP LIGHT OUT.

this flap sits just inside the walls about 1/4 inch, and this flap is about 2 inches down, and continuous around the whole perimeter of the lid.

hope that stuff helps. Check out that link up there, and see that deep water is fine as long as its kept moving at high speeds...


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## sherriberry (Dec 13, 2009)

i just realized something that i might have overlooked that is very important.

My res is pretty damn small.

its one of the small roughneck tubs from rubbermade.

thats right, the ones that are only about a foot tall.

THis might seem like a bad thing.. but..

i cant attest to the oxygen levels in the water staying hight IF YOU USE A LARGER ONE, FOR I HAVE NOT...

and if you think about it, this means ALL the water in the rez gets moved around more often... keeping all of it oxygenated...

instead of it getting very long of a break before its pumped out again.

my table is half full of plants up on the lid, and i have some plants over a foot tall now, and THEY DRINK OVER A GALLON A DAY,

i am currently using the SLURPING noise of the sprayer pump as an indicator when its time to add another gallon... and then i add one, and it doenst slurp anymore...

until tomorrow 

This keeps the nutes fresh too i guess.

all in all, i would say it holds a total of over 6 gallons with the table flooded.

Honestly... i think my rez might overflow if i shut off the pump for i have added more water after the tables fountains were already on, so the table is holding a lot of water too.

but i have battery backup for my pumps, so im not overly concerned with this overflow aspect if the power ever did go out.

I also like the idea of using 2 pumps, one for the fountain and one for the sprayers, just incase a pump fails, the plants stay wet enough they dont die.

2 hours is all it takes i think, and they are gone.

i had a clone tub with 3 week old plants lose power for 1.5 hours, and i lost a couple plants, all were laid over, but most came back to life.


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## repvip (Dec 13, 2009)

Nice! I have a better picture in my head now...

Got to love the battery backup! Just got mine figured out.. nothing fancy--a car battery and cheap power inverter. 

The one bad thing I found (and, maybe, maybe its just me) but the cap art-dne recycle timer wouldn't run off the modified sine wave inverter (how the cheap ones work) so I still had to plug and unplug for 6 hours the other night. Dang snow! A cheap manuel timer would work, or a much more expensive power inverter! 

Is it ok to transfer from Aero/NFT into DWC? Is there any concern of drowning the [aero]roots?


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## fatman7574 (Dec 13, 2009)

Sure you can grow pot in DWC or on a table with some combination of something as above. It can even grow well enough for some people to be satisfied. There are many people happy with small yubr aero sstems and they are really quite sad as thery are not much better than a DWC. It is even questionable if a DWC can even out perform a good soil grow. Likely not. There are better ways. Like standard hydroponics Ebb and Flow. Or the kings of growing: high pressure aeropinic in deep chambers or aeromix (air atomo izing nozzles) in deep chambers or even a properly built and watered NFT. You make your choices, you live with the results. Facts are facts, science has proven what works best and pot growers using those systems, such as high pressure aero and atomizers in chambers and NFT, find that the scientists such as Cooper knew what they were taking about. In the mean time many growers still spin their wheels doing it their way or some other pot growers way they read about but don't even understand and get much more inferior set ups and performances.


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## streetlegal (Dec 13, 2009)

repvip said:


> Good question... I will never go back to dirt!
> 
> I did get rid of the sprayers... however I think it would work better with sprayers... I just didn't want to use 1000 ez-clone sprayers, haha. Obviously from the pics it is working...
> 
> ...


Ok so 1L/min per channel, thats good info for NFT, something for you to go on.
Yeh i fuckin hear ya man, geting flow rates etc down to a science is frustrating. I think this is bcos theres no exact science for Aero/NFT, the most i know is u need about "aprox" 400gph pump per 20 sprayers. 
True Aero Growing' has alot more exacting info out there.

Thats wots good about the S.B system, it is just build and grow, i got the 396gph pumps and i could rest assured.. I got this Professor Compulsive side and i wanna be on top of my system from all angles but i gotta remind myself K.I.S.S.. like u said, even though theres some things u wanna change ur system is obviously working.. Cos im sticking to sprayers for flow rate ill just aim for the same amount of run-off i get from the S.B channels..

The S.B system of inserting the sprayer rails inside the channels is p.i.t.a when it comes to checking for blockages and cleaning the system..The HeathRobinson link i put up on the previous page, this is how i wanna run my new system, run hose along the channel and insert sprayers into the channel from the top.

Yo repvip, see how heathrobinson sprayers are posistioned like: X= Sprayer 0= Plant Hole 0X0X0X00x00 I take it is like this so the front plants dont get overwatered bcos there is enough water coming down from the rear sprayers, but i was just thinking on putting 1 sprayer between each hole, wot do u think? 
My S.B system channels are 5' long with 7 plant sites spaced at 8 inches, i wanted to go 5sq inch spacing with my new system, think thats too close?

*My System:*
Im gonna have 2 sites each being 14 6' channels making a site footfrint 6'x6'. The clones will be staggered for a 2 week perpetual harvest. I will plant out half (7 channels) of the first site 98 clones then the other 98 2 weeks later then half of the second site and then the other half 2 weeks later etc so 98 plants harvested every 2 weeks 1000w over each site (might not be enough but ill see how it goes, might go 2 1000's or 3 600's) and run it flip flop, especially if i do run with 2 1000w over each table cos i wont have a 4000w spike once a day, just a constant 2000..

Also wot strains u running in the pics man? ran any others? How many 4 channel sites are u running? Getting ur ideal yield yet?


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## fatman7574 (Dec 13, 2009)

*1 liter/min per channel from 10 inch channels* with the roots spread thinly across the full channel. Slope should be at least a minimum of 1" in 40". Channel up to 90 feet long with that same pitch and flow. 96 inchs wide means approximattely 10 channels. That means a 4" by 8" bed should flow ( 1 liter/3.785 liter/gallon) * 10 channels* 60 min/hr= 158 gallons per hour, or a continous flow of 2.64 gallons per minute for a 4' by 8' bed. The plants might take up 2 pints of water per hour so 0.033 gallons per minute, so that means you need to flow 2.67 gallons per minute or 160 gallons per minute maximaum. Ant y thing over that decraeses oxygen uptake so lowers growth. That same bed 48" wide and 90 foot long would only need about 2.87 gallons per minute or 172 gallons per hour. That is with the water running 24/7.

Set in stone no. But I would be willing to bet at least four years or more of fully documented testing was used to come up with that recommended guideline. It is still the general guideline used in the commercial agricultural community. There is vaery liitle variance in the area except those trying to flow even less, not more nutrient water.


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## sherriberry (Dec 14, 2009)

i mentioned it in my peroxide thread as well, but heres the proper place...

i think im going to build a larger scale version of the stinkbud bloom setup... but use the smaller micron sprayers fatman mentioned, and try to incorporate a solenoid that will allow one single large pump to run constantly, in one resevoir...

but alternate which fence posts get the water, using a timer.

I need advice on how to do this... id like to just get a solenoid that alternates between open one way, and open the other, like a T valve.

If anyone knows of these, point me that way. Thanks


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## tea tree (Dec 14, 2009)

Any body ever try just getting an nft mat and keeping a low water level. I hear that thin film is awesome. Most comercial greenhouses use that tech, well I find rw drips and a huge aero setup over asian skyscrapers. I still never see anyone use an nft mat. myself I am ebb and flow. It makes me feel good  Good luck all.


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## repvip (Dec 14, 2009)

tea tree said:


> Any body ever try just getting an nft mat and keeping a low water level. I hear that thin film is awesome. Most comercial greenhouses use that tech, well I find rw drips and a huge aero setup over asian skyscrapers. I still never see anyone use an nft mat. myself I am ebb and flow. It makes me feel good  Good luck all.


You make the mat sound ... supernatural or something!

Isn't it just a capillary mat to spread out the water?

I'm using cheesecloth at the bottom of my fence posts, just a single layer to keep moist in case of pump failure.

Also, I'm running one unit now continuously with a 185gph pump... so far so good, but it's really too early to tell (if there is a difference in continuous flow versus cycling 1/5 on/off). It's a 15 gallon rez with 10 gallons of nute solution, and it doesn't heat up with the pump on 24/7... I bet I could even use a smaller pump.



> Yo repvip, see how heathrobinson sprayers are posistioned like: X= Sprayer 0= Plant Hole 0X0X0X00x00 I take it is like this so the front plants dont get overwatered bcos there is enough water coming down from the rear sprayers, but i was just thinking on putting 1 sprayer between each hole, wot do u think?
> My S.B system channels are 5' long with 7 plant sites spaced at 8 inches, i wanted to go 5sq inch spacing with my new system, think thats too close?
> 
> *My System:*
> ...


I think a sprayer between every plant is fine. I think a sprayer every other plant is fine too. Just depends on how many sprayers you want to install and how many plant sites you will have... Fatman is the pro obviously with this... I don't know anything about medium/high pressure aero! 

I actually just converted one of my NFT units today into AERO/NFT with the addition of sprayers .. with OXOOXOOXOOXOOXO X=sprayer, O=plant. This way it's only 20 sprayers per entire unit, 5 per post. Pictures attached. It was easy to get the sprayers up top, spraying down. 

When using Stink's system, I had roots so massive they blocked my bottom sprayers completely, which is why I thought "fuck sprayers who needs em". That's when I converted my stink systems over to what I have now. However, my NFT units should be yielding more. I don't want a lecture from anyone... but I'm only getting 8oz per unit. 40 plants on SOG.. I was aiming for *at least* 10oz with the ultimate goal of a pound per unit every harvest. It's still early in my experimenting.. The sprayers should make a difference.

As for spacing... My units are 6" center to center per post, but between posts they end up being 5" center to center on the diagonal. I like 6".. However, 5" with just top colas would probably be ok... I'm not the best person to ask about spacing.. I just experiment with my own shit to see what works! I cut off the bottom 1/3 branches. A couple pics to show how crowded it gets with this spacing...

What else... I have 4 units and harvest every 2 weeks. I grow Blue Cheese by Big Buddha and AK48 by Nirvana. I've grown a few strains, and it's been a bitch to find one I like that works on my time frame. 

ps I really want to try those fatman misters/sprayers, but I already have so many ecoplus pumps! I'm sick of buying more supplies. Can the ecoplus pumps run the medium pressure misters?


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## streetlegal (Dec 14, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> i mentioned it in my peroxide thread as well, but heres the proper place...
> 
> i think im going to build a larger scale version of the stinkbud bloom setup... but use the smaller micron sprayers fatman mentioned, and try to incorporate a solenoid that will allow one single large pump to run constantly, in one resevoir...
> 
> ...


Sherriberry your talking about 'TAG' true aero growing? using a high pressure pump and misters yeh.. i read some about this and it seems you need to be VERY exact with ur nutes and set-up in general bcos ur plants react really fast. If u dont have it spot on then u pretty much better off with aero/nft hybrid..which is a heck of alot easier
Heres a cut n paste fome PodRacer
For pics of table set-ups 
*http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=15115* 


But those that know anything about TAGing know...its aint no cake walk.


So, what is TAG? You ask. And what is pod racing?

Well, these are the 
*Basics for TAG:*

*1.* PSI > 30, *50*=Ideal, 100 psi even better.
*2.* Interval cycling 20-30 seconds on, 3-4 minutes off (Dark periods may extend dry periods).
*3.*Average droplet size *50µ (micron) nozzles* (acceptable ranges 30-80µ) with flows < 2 gph preferably .5-1gph with *screen filters of 150* and up. 
*4.*Target *root temperatures maintained at 68F*. (Mature clones lower temps/younger prefer warmer) Temperatures should never exceed 74F (Dangerous).
*5.* The greater the aerospace around the root zones the better*lateral root development equals bud thickness* and development your goal are pom pom roots.
*6. Nutrient strengths* for TAG are *extremely ratio sensitive*. Most strains will demonstrate deficiencies in K, Ca, Mg, and P, for optimal absorption of nutrients ratios shoud be as follows:

Ca:Mg 3:1
NO3:NH4 9:1
ph is 5.4-5.8

*7.* Always have a back up pump or system for failurealways!
*8.* Root zones should be completely dark and sealed from any UV penetration. UV kills AM (bacteria that feeds the root system)
*9.*Always use RO water and premix nutrients before adding to systems to prevent chemicals from coming out of solution and clogging nozzles as well as 150 mesh filter or higher.


Now a more indepth if you like...


*Compendium for TAG* (True Aero Growing)

The principles of aeroponics differ considerably from other methods of plant propagation. Several factors influence the rapid absorption and accelerated grow that can be expected when rig designs are brought closer to the* True Aero Environment. TAE*

These factors establish a the optimal TAE. 

This environment consists of these requirements:

*Ideal rooting environments* should be unrestricted with enough volume to allow every square cm of root zone to become completely coated with a micro-fine mist of 50µ average population nutrient solution every 3 to 4 minutes in under 60 seconds (preferably 20-30 second misting cycles).

*Root Zone Temperatures* are found to be ideally suited at approximately 68-72F for maximum efficiency, though younger plants grow faster at higher temperatures and older ones at lowerthese extremes are not conducive to the microculture necessary to support the root colonies and risk of possible bad bacterial infections. The use of HG or any AM inoculant is advised and recommended.
*Ideal root temperature has been established at 68F as being TAT. (Target Aero Temperature)*
Root zone temperatures should see very little temperature fluctuation and absolutely no light penetration if possible. Anything above 75F should be considered dangerous to the health and well being of your plants and HydroGuard or other benefical is highly recommended. Beneficials are recommended in general as the speed and growth in a TAE is exceptional and the rooting environment needs as much support as possible to keep up with increasing growth demands.

A basic understanding of certain principles are necessary for all TAGers. These concern uptake of nutrition and supplimentation as the rapidly accelerated growth available in TAGing requires accurate and relatively precise balances of major life processes.

Here are some that will help the beginning TAGer understand the importance and value of precision delivery.

The *basic principles*
of aeroponic delivery are the *rapid exchange of gases between the membranes of the root subculture and the plant roots.* Application of a micro-fine nutrient film that is readily absorbed and evaporated before the next aerosol cycle is the goal.

The need for 50µ-target size for micro droplets is based on the findings by researchers that the average tube opening on the root hairs is approximate 20-50µ or within a range from 5-100µ.

The specific reason for this importance is as follows:

Aero isn't about DO. There really isn't that much in True aero, as I've mentioned. It has to do with uniformity of droplet size.
The mist that is created by these nozzles is micro fine and all the drops are pretty much the same size and an ideal size for optimum uptake.
You have a hundred different size balls that you are trying to get through a screen with holes that only fit things the size of a ping pong ball or smaller. Your standard mister is going to have like a 50/50 mix of sizes and the bigger ones have to hang out until something comes along to break it into several smaller balls kind of like the game 'asteroids' if you remember it.
True aero is a spray of balls that are all the size of ping pong balls or smaller, so everything goes right through the screen without having to wait to be broken up into smaller pieces.
That is what is happening on a microscopic level at your root level. The need for O2 is that it breaks down those H20 molecules and helps tear apart CO2 the O's are all what they call 'Free Radical' Meaning they bond with anything immediately. It is called Oxidation. That is why your blood is red, oxidized iron in your blood. It is how hemoglobin is created. All cells respire gases...it is smaller than water vapor or even the molecules themselves. O2 is a gas, CO2 is a gas, Nitrogen is a gas, Hydrogen is a gas these are all gases that when combined together to make a 'big ball' make water H20 or CO2 or any of the elements you are feeding your plant.



The first picture is a close-up of a lotus leaf, an example of a super-hydrophobic plant. The roughness of the leaf surface results from the coexistence of bumps about 10 µm(10 microns) wide and hollow channels of about 1 µm(micron) in diameter. The entire surface is covered by a layer of wax that makes it hydrophobic. The ability of the leaf to repel water is enhanced by the surface roughness. (Picture credit: W Barthlott)

That said:

   
Nozzles are geared towards irrigation and as such utilize a vortex flow, which means that the droplet size does not change with pressure but is indeed from 5 to 200 microns. The majority of the droplet population is about 100 microns, however there is a broad-spectrum of sizes.

PSI/Dan foggers will create 'true' aero fogging at around 50 to 80 microns, but doesnt have consistent droplet sizes below 50. The best you could do would be a fogger nozzle with populations between 20-50 microns which are the Bio-Control nozzles.

*Why Atomize?*
Imagine two droplets of the same size, one droplet you break up [atomize] into 1000 smaller droplets and the other you leave alone. If you measure the surface area of each "small droplet" and add them up, the result will be more than the total surface area of single large droplet. Simply put, the smaller the droplet size, the more surface area you'll have at a given flow rate. More surface area translates into more efficient heat transfer, surface contact or reaction within a gas stream.

All mediums get in the way of gas exchange and mediumless growing is preferred.

*Spray mist less than 20 microns tend to remain in the air as a fog and are not readily absorbed by the roots. The ideal mist size range for most plant species is 30 - 80 microns. Within this range the mist makes the most contact with the roots.*

Inclines are necessary with most tubes to ensure adequate drainage.

One can reasonably expect 45% faster veg times when the TAE is achieved.

Third in importance for maximum efficiency is cycle timing of nutrient delivery, i.e. the on/off cycle.

*Optimal industry standards for TAGing are 20-30 seconds of delivery to 180-240 seconds off depending on environment.* Most rely on the 30/3 cycle of 30 seconds on 3 minutes off. This appears to be the maximum effective rate lessening in effectiveness as intervals become longer.

*15-minute timers are not to be used in TAG as they overly saturate and dry too long for an effective TAE.*

Ideal environments for TAG roots are light proof and completely opaque. Heat and light issues at root zones are the number 1 complication with aeroponic rigs designed without adequate space or drainage.

Nutrient Strengths are still under debate at this time. Current conventions suggest that in TAE nutrient uptake exceeds any other form of Faux Aero, DWC or NFT system so high levels of K and Ca/Mg are necessary in the proper ratios.

Minimum levels in liquid ferts should be as follows:



It is to my personal understanding that I believe these numbers could be much higher once nutrient profiles are established for the growth cycle of this plant. There appears to be increased issues with P/K uptake during all phases do to lockout more than over fertilization.

A community of brilliant minds has assembled to race their rigs together to watch for performance enhancement and innovation in design. All are welcomed to join in the fun and learn a little too, maybe.






There will be a number of experts docking at this station, all have exceptional knowledge and experience feel free to question them on their rigs, but be mindful to have read the above before asking any obviously stated questions. And don't hesitate to ask for validation for their design specification, they usually always have a master plan behind it all.


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## sherriberry (Dec 14, 2009)

good info bro

here is what im going to do for now since you just scared the shit out of me from going to smaller sized microns for the time being...

i still have a bunch of ez clone sprayers left...

or if fatman says its okay, i might try his smaller micron sprayers... but heres the deal..

i drew it out on a piece of paper that if i have 

2 cap timers

3 normally open solenoids

3 nomrally closed solenoids

i can construct pumbing that will feed

8 total fence posts, assuming the pump can only feed 2 posts at a time.

but, 4 total groups we will say.

O C O C -timer for all 4 of these 1.5 min
l l l l
---- ---
l l
O----C -timer for the 2 of these 3 min
l
l
Pump

okay, the little diagram above shows a T setup for the pipe after it comes out of the pump.

One one side of the T is a normally open.

On the other side is a normally closed

1 cap timer will be plugged into these,,, when its on, one is open, one is closed.

when its off, the other is open and the other is closed

this timer will be on for 3 min, off for 3 min

then, a second teir of T's will occur after each of these valves.

and again, there will be another normally open valve on one side, and normally closed valve on the other side of the second teir T

these solenoids will be plugged into a second cap timer, and will be on a 1.5 min on, 1.5 min off.

both sides of secondary T valves are on 1 timer! Thats 4 valves, 2 normally open, 2 normally closed, one of each on each side of the primary T

so, look at what happens.

The first T by the pump alternates one way, lets say to the right side, so thats where the flow goes for 3 min.

During that 3 min, the WHOLE left side goes dry.

now, during that 3 min, 1.5 min ALL THE SECONDARY VALVES ROTATE.

but the dry left side doenst matter, its dry, so the secondaries just open and close in the wind on the left side, per say.

Meanwhile on the right side of the primary T, one side is on for 1.5 min, and then the other side on for the other 1.5 min.

then it switches to the other side of the primary T, and you get 1.5 on one side, and 1.5 on the other side of the secondary T on the right side of the pump.

So, thats 4.5 min of off time for each "group" whether its 2 or 3 posts per group... who knows, that depends on pump size.

And the pump is always on.

and they all drain back to the same res.

Unless im missing the boat somewhere and there is a circut or relay that makes this whole thing a lot simpler and less expensive than buying 2 cap timers.

Also note...

i found the valves that spit either left or right.

They are called a ASCO Electric Solenoid Valve 3/8" NPT 3-Way valve

but... notice the 3/8" part...

so unless i get the okay from fatman and used a high pressure pump...

im stuck using normally ON and normally OFF standard 2 way valves.


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## sherriberry (Dec 14, 2009)

this thing is bs and keeps messing up my diagram


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## sherriberry (Dec 14, 2009)

fatman... that pump you linked earlier... the one that is 80 bucks on ebay instead of 300... how many of those small micron sprayers can it power comfortably?

im thinking about using it for this setup im talking about

AND 

also having a small small pump run constant NFT down every post...

what are your thoughts?


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## streetlegal (Dec 14, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> good info bro
> 
> here is what im going to do for now since you just scared the shit out of me from going to smaller sized microns for the time being...
> 
> ...


Haha thats fucking awesome bro (more then wot i could be bothered doing)..
You would think there would be a simple way/application of switching between individual pipes, Ag growers need to manage 100's of pipes

_"Electronic relays are particularly suited for switching medium and small loads and for applications with frequent switching cycles"_
There prob is a relay switch u can build to open and close individual solenoids, but would u still need multiple timers? im hardly elec. minded so im no good there..

Why dont you just run all the lines from 1 bigger pump, all on the same timer? Does that work out just as cost effective in the end?..


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## repvip (Dec 14, 2009)

streetlegal said:


> Why dont you just run all the lines from 1 bigger pump, all on the same timer? Does that work out just as cost effective in the end?..


Keeps the reservoir cooler too!

Well, unless you really do another pump with continuous NFT


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## fatman7574 (Dec 14, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> fatman... that pump you linked earlier... the one that is 80 bucks on ebay instead of 300... how many of those small micron sprayers can it power comfortably?
> 
> im thinking about using it for this setup im talking about
> 
> ...


It uses 90 watts and can supply water to up to about 140 nozzles depending on the droplet sizes you desire. I go for a very fine mist with the majority under 50 to 75 micron so I keep it down to about 70 misters at 0.5 gallon/hr each. That is 1892 ml each per hour. Say you want a flow of 1 liter per hour per every 10 inches width that means with your set up that is a 10 liter per hour flow. Double that for the larger root masses. So 20 liters per hour. 20 liter is equal to 200000 ml. (20000 / 1892) = That means you would only need 10.57 or 100 misters running 24 hours if running constantly. I would instaed use morenozzles and run intermittantly. Say 44 nozzles with the water spraying 20 seconds on and one minute off. A solenoid would be used so that the pump ran constantly. I would l also add a venturi valve on a seperate recirculationg pump. All it would do is suck huge amounts of air into the pump, where by the pump would chop the bubbles into little small bubbles. As small bublles slowly rise to the waters surface and because they have a larger surface area ratio than large bubbles they add a great amount of DO to the reservoir water. Even Cooper recommended this over 20 years or more ago. It is much more efficient than using airstones. Or there are needle wheel pumps made to do the same thing.


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## streetlegal (Dec 14, 2009)

repvip said:


> You make the mat sound ... supernatural or something!
> 
> Isn't it just a capillary mat to spread out the water?
> 
> ...


Repvip man, being that u got all 3 going its a really good comparison check between Continuous Flow Vs Sprayer Rails Vs NFT now, be really good to see yield diffs, fuckng interesting. Yeh im not doing pressure misters, sticking to aero/nft..

Not to lecture bout ur yields but if i can say, i think ur limiting factors atm could be light and quality genetics, after that u could look into Co2.. ur already a far way along in trial and error in regards to the best way of running ur system (thanks btw man, saved me alot of experimenting) so looking to other areas is where u could find yield.. 

A really good single cola sog high yielder is White Rhino, and look at Al.b's Sweet Tooth #3 (tho u cant get that atm, there is sweet tooth 1.1, also known as Grapefruit x Blueberry by Chimera, exactly same seed stock as ST1.1)
Fuck man i hope that didnt turn into a lecture baaa. No doubt im saying things u already know.. 
And dont be scared to trim them fuckers up goood! like a real lollypop, dont want too much energy wasted in those moot bottom branches


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## repvip (Dec 14, 2009)

streetlegal said:


> Repvip man, being that u got all 3 going its a really good comparison check between Continuous Flow Vs Sprayer Rails Vs NFT now, be really good to see yield diffs, fuckng interesting. Yeh im not doing pressure misters, sticking to aero/nft..
> 
> Not to lecture bout ur yields but if i can say, i think ur limiting factors atm could be light and quality genetics, after that u could look into Co2.. ur already a far way along in trial and error in regards to the best way of running ur system (thanks btw man, saved me alot of experimenting) so looking to other areas is where u could find yield..
> 
> ...


I'm not sure light is my limiting factor... I have two light movers, one with a 600w hortliux HPS and 400w hortilux MH, the other with the 350w LED quad-band from Prosource. The light movers allow me to position the LED within <1" of the tops, and the MH and HPS are similarly adjustable.. I aim for 6" or less on HPS and 2-4" on MH. I basically built my NFT units for the footprint of the lights, on light movers. The units start on the right side of my flower room, under the LED, and rotate left under the 400w and then further left where they finish under the 600w.

I also run CO2, A/C, dehumidifier... completely sealed.. huge ass carbon scrubber. The lights are vented separately with a 745cfm fan... so I can keep them CLOSE! 

The first few harvest have been clones->flower with no veg time... eventually I will catch up on clones and will have plants vegging for 2 weeks before they flower. Lots of little things to improve yields... so even though 8oz sucks ass... it's like a worst case scenario. 

BTW, with 2 days continuous low-flow NFT (all I have tried so far on continuous) the roots already are growing better than they were with intermittent NFT.

You are right in that I am comparing the different techniques with my basic setup. We got intermittent NFT, continuous NFT, and Aero/Intermittent NFT all in the same conditions.. will be fun to see the best. And now we got sherriberry possibly doing Aero/continuous NFT!

PS - the LED is so bright, it penetrates through my fence posts! The inside of the fence posts glows pink where the LED is above.. and it might be hurting my roots. It's not a light leak.. it's that fucking bright! I might paint my posts black.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 14, 2009)

PAR lighting is not accumalative. There is no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to PAR lighting. Either the plants are getting optimal lighting or they are not. Two hours of half optimal PAR is not equal to one hour of optimal PAR lighting. If a plant puts on say 1 gram of mass from an hour of lighting at a PAR rating of say 6 units. It is not going to put on 1 gram of mass from two hours of lighting with a PAR of 3 units. PAR is not accumalative. PAR is the light received at any given time not over a period of time. If t your lights are say 2000 watts. Say 50 watts per square foot, so 40 square feet of likely adequate PAR coverage. Simply putting those lights on tracks does not mean you can increase the area of coverage while supplying optimal PAR to all the area plus the additional area. It just means for a shrter while the plants are getting optimal PAR and the rest of the time they are getting less than optimal PAR. 

Track lights are simply a way of using fewer large lights rather than the same wattage of lights in mutiple fixtures which would have a mi uch higher purchase price. If you have an area of say 100 square feet. That means 5000 watts. So a tracking system allows the use of five 1000 watt lights moved around rather than twenty 250 watt lights sitting stationary. That is all they are good for really. They do not allow you to get the same growth by using 2500 watts of lighting on tracks rather than 5000 watts. No free lunch. They are only meant to save the money spent on multiple fixtures veri us a lessor number of larger fixture.


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## sherriberry (Dec 14, 2009)

fatman...

how much attention am i going to have to give to my res, checking nutes, ppms, ph, etc?

... if i go with these fine mist sprayers?

also, you mentioned 50 micron sprayers in your last post... but the ones you linked i think are 80 microns... did i miss something?

how do the sprayers attach to the feed lines? do i buy the barbed ones or the screw style ones?

as far as nutes go...

what do i need to do different...

i currently have cal mag
advanced nutrients bloom and micro
great white


what else would i need to get for veg if i used these fine mist sprayers

and what else would i need to get for bloom if i use these fine mist sprayers

thanks


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## streetlegal (Dec 14, 2009)

repvip said:


> I'm not sure light is my limiting factor... I have two light movers, one with a 600w hortliux HPS and 400w hortilux MH, the other with the 350w LED quad-band from Prosource. The light movers allow me to position the LED within <1" of the tops, and the MH and HPS are similarly adjustable.. I aim for 6" or less on HPS and 2-4" on MH. I basically built my NFT units for the footprint of the lights, on light movers. The units start on the right side of my flower room, under the LED, and rotate left under the 400w and then further left where they finish under the 600w.
> 
> I also run CO2, A/C, dehumidifier... completely sealed.. huge ass carbon scrubber. The lights are vented separately with a 745cfm fan... so I can keep them CLOSE!
> 
> ...


Fuck yeh! co2 and HUGE fan for ur lights, ur lucky u dont get urself sucked thru 745cfm Yeh my design specs are for light footprint too..8 ounces every 2 weeks far from sucks ass (thats $1200 a week where im from), i have no doubt u'll hit poundage..

So ur going to give ur clones 2 weeks to root the another 2 weeks veg yeh? U using then same Stink aero cloner set-up? Ima go 2weeks for clones to root then straight into flower 

As lighting goes i live and die HPS, there cant be any better, i havnt even looked into LED in a serious way so im far from well informed but HPS is for big dense dank, and the more HPS u can afford/risk/handle the better.. MH for Mums (im Aussie btw lol) and T5's for 
clones BAM!
Im not trying to convince u of HPS, thatd be like u trying to change me to led, just saying
Forgot to look at ur latest pics, that shit is so nice, lush.


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## repvip (Dec 14, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> PAR lighting is not accumalative. There is no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to PAR lighting. Either the plants are getting optimal lighting or they are not. Two hours of half optimal PAR is not equal to one hour of optimal PAR lighting. If a plant puts on say 1 gram of mass from an hour of lighting at a PAR rating of say 6 units. It is not going to put on 1 gram of mass from two hours of lighting with a PAR of 3 units. PAR is not accumalative. PAR is the light received at any given time not over a period of time. If t your lights are say 2000 watts. Say 50 watts per square foot, so 40 square feet of likely adequate PAR coverage. Simply putting those lights on tracks does not mean you can increase the area of coverage while supplying optimal PAR to all the area plus the additional area. It just means for a shrter while the plants are getting optimal PAR and the rest of the time they are getting less than optimal PAR.
> 
> Track lights are simply a way of using fewer large lights rather than the same wattage of lights in mutiple fixtures which would have a mi uch higher purchase price. If you have an area of say 100 square feet. That means 5000 watts. So a tracking system allows the use of five 1000 watt lights moved around rather than twenty 250 watt lights sitting stationary. That is all they are good for really. They do not allow you to get the same growth by using 2500 watts of lighting on tracks rather than 5000 watts. No free lunch. They are only meant to save the money spent on multiple fixtures veri us a lessor number of larger fixture.


I understand. 

There were multiple reasons why I did what I did. Some were energy restraints, some were height.. 

My fence posts units were designed to fit the footprint of these lights when placed directly over top on a light mover. Why? Because, with one or two 1000w lights, there were always problems keeping the light close to most of the plants, most of the time. Besides, do barely rooted clones need 1000w of light? It's a progression from lower intensity to higher intensity lighting as the units are rotated.

The physics makes sense as well, on both ends. Your side makes sense, but how long of tracks were you thinking of? Mine are only 4'. My side makes sense, because the light coverage is better. Replacing the 1000w hps with a 600w and 400w allows on a light mover allows me to, at the same cost, increase the efficiency of the lights because of the decreased distance. Sure I could do just as well with 2 1000w lights placed 2 ft above, but why? The 400w will soon be replaced by an identical 600w. Surely 2 600w HPS on a light mover is better than 1 1000w HPS. 

Light movers are generally accepted to increase your grow area 1.6 times. I'm not that greedy.

If I could quickly find a good lumen depreciation chart with distance, I could easily point it out. Since I can't.. just consider the inverse square law. Twice the distance=1/4 the light. Thrice the distance=1/9 the light. I don't know how many growers get their 1000w within 12". A 600w at 4" is doable. Well, that's 3x distance in that example, making the lights comparably efficient.

I will go with much more intensity for slightly less 'optimal light' time... maybe 30% of the time it's not 'optimal light', but the 70% when it is, is very optimal.

Anyway, fartman, you are a smart dude, but sort of a nice guy about it.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 14, 2009)

Light track do not inceases light i outage. As I said all they do is sheplp to du istru ibute rhe light from a too imtnese light force out to accptable light levels. They ac not crteate light. What I am saying is based upon the inverse squatre law. basically you are doing as I sugesst that the tracks are good for doi ng. You are not trying to get more coverage with a small amount od light but more even coverage using I assume adequate lighting. To many people think that they can light as I daifd. More area with less light. Theinverse light law and AR meters how that is not possible. Sure with a light track you can beteer covered a large are with a large light than without a rtack using thesa, me light. You are not rying to provide light for a larger are but merely moving the light over rhe area to prevent any one rea from getting more light than another. Big difference. However it is still a fact that with an areas of say 2.08'by 8' (60 watts per sqaure foot) and an arrangement of four 250 watt lights without movers will provide better ligthing than a 1000 watt light on a light track. That is a proven fact. While the track and single light 1000 watt set up may be cheaper initially, the four lamp system has a very quick pay back due to increased yields. Tracks better the short term economics but still falls short in the medium and long term.


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## repvip (Dec 14, 2009)

streetlegal said:


> Fuck yeh! co2 and HUGE fan for ur lights, ur lucky u dont get urself sucked thru 745cfm Yeh my design specs are for light footprint too..8 ounces every 2 weeks far from sucks ass (thats $1200 a week where im from), i have no doubt u'll hit poundage..
> 
> So ur going to give ur clones 2 weeks to root the another 2 weeks veg yeh? U using then same Stink aero cloner set-up? Ima go 2weeks for clones to root then straight into flower
> 
> ...


Actually, I forgot to post the pics! I had to go back and edit.

I realize HPS is the way to go.. Like in my previous post, will soon have 2 600w and the LED. I only use LEDs for vegging (well, I consider the first 2 weeks in bloom to still be vegging, and still use veg nutes).

Of course four 1000w HPS lights would be better. More is always better... I think the real argument is between 600w and 1000w, at least for most people who do this as a hobby.

Still using stinkbud cloners and all that. Yes I want 2 weeks in cloner, 2 weeks vegging, then bloom. 

I have 3 clones units 2 veg units 1 mother unit... plus *my* favorite unit, haha  

It's hard to get good pics with LEDs on.. all the purple. Also, I wouldn't recommend sativa in a SOG.


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## repvip (Dec 14, 2009)

fatman you are a smarty for sure! Do you use a wireless keyboard?
I think you should just tell me what to do.



sherriberry said:


> how much attention am i going to have to give to my res, checking nutes, ppms, ph, etc?
> 
> ... if i go with these fine mist sprayers?


Sorry will bring it back on topic though... sort of.. sherriberry asked about nutes and fine misters. What type of nutes do you recommend for medium and high pressure aeroponics? I was under the impression organic nutes tended to clog more, is that true with the medium psi as well?


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## fatman7574 (Dec 14, 2009)

Proper PAR is best regardless of how you achieve it. With out a light mover for an example I would likely with a rectangular grow of say 2' by 8' choose two 400 watts lights versus one 1000 watt light. The growth would be more even as the Par would be more even. The Par at the ends of the grow with the single 1000 watt light would be too low and the PAR in the center would be so high as to require the light be raised to reduce the intensity. I really do not know how there can be any comparison between a 600 watt light and a 1000 watt light used over the same area. Od course if the 600 wattt acn deliver optimal PAR for the area being lit it would be better as it would be cheaper to purcahse and operate and it is quite possible to provide too much light.


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## sherriberry (Dec 15, 2009)

would checking on the res and plants once a day be enough?

or can things swing out of control faster than that?


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## streetlegal (Dec 15, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> Light track do not inceases light i outage. As I said all they do is sheplp to du istru ibute rhe light from a too imtnese light force out to accptable light levels. They ac not crteate light. What I am saying is based upon the inverse squatre law. basically you are doing as I sugesst that the tracks are good for doi ng. You are not trying to get more coverage with a small amount od light but more even coverage using I assume adequate lighting. To many people think that they can light as I daifd. More area with less light. Theinverse light law and AR meters how that is not possible. Sure with a light track you can beteer covered a large are with a large light than without a rtack using thesa, me light. You are not rying to provide light for a larger are but merely moving the light over rhe area to prevent any one rea from getting more light than another. Big difference. However it is still a fact that with an areas of say 2.08'by 8' (60 watts per sqaure foot) and an arrangement of four 250 watt lights without movers will provide better ligthing than a 1000 watt light on a light track. That is a proven fact. While the track and single light 1000 watt set up may be cheaper initially, the four lamp system has a very quick pay back due to increased yields. Tracks better the short term economics but still falls short in the medium and long term.


I gave up after the third line, bad spelling




> Anyway, fartman, you are a smart dude, but sort of a nice guy about it.


You too RV


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## streetlegal (Dec 15, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> would checking on the res and plants once a day be enough?
> 
> or can things swing out of control faster than that?


SherriB are u talking growing TAG? or just aero/nft with misters? cos i could help u there.. 
and imo res maintenance would be the same for aero/nft with sprayers OR misters..
But for TAG, res maintenance is included in that link i posted previously me thought?


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## fatman7574 (Dec 15, 2009)

streetlegal said:


> I gave up after the third line, bad spelling
> 
> 
> 
> You too RV


If someone can point me to a spell check on this forum I would quite happy to use it. Then again about half the replies in this forum have mis-spelling to include streetldeals's replies. I think he probably considers it slang. Just bad english or mispelling, or trying to be cute. Are you trying to be cute or are you just being childish, immature and insultive ? This is not a text serviv ce. Real words can actually be used here dirt bag not childish text meassageing. What are you a high schooler?


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## streetlegal (Dec 15, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> If someone can point me to a spell check on this forum I would quite happy to use it. Then again about half the replies in this forum have mis-spelling to include streetldeals's replies. I think he probably considers it slang. Just bad english or mispelling, or trying to be cute. Are you trying to be cute or are you just being childish, immature and insultive ? This is not a text serviv ce. Real words can actually be used here dirt bag not childish text meassageing. What are you a high schooler?


Is this directed towards me? cos i couldnt work it out?..
ccksukr..work that one out


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## repvip (Dec 15, 2009)

Just smoke a bowl and blame it on the wireless keyboard! 

Don't scare off fatman yet, I want to learn from this ol' timer

For example, the red ez-clone sprayers I added to one of my units, a total of 20 with about 24' of 1/2" PVC, is now a debacle. They don't work very good upside down? The 633gph barely trickels, and a 1056gph pump almost sprays but not quite. 

I thought at least 25gph per sprayer? I'm way above that. 

I want better misters/sprayers that have finer droplet size, which will work off low pressure water pumps, specifically the ecoplus line in the 600-1200gph range.

EDIT:
By the way, when I was using stinkbuds aero/nft units before, I would check on the rez every 2-3 days and just fill it up. The pH was always dead on, but I didn't aerate back then. The sprayers did all that work. After awhile I quit checking pH altogether.
Now, with NFT, I have been checking rezzies everyday. Aeration causes pH changes... if you have never aerated your water and then you do, the pH will prob drop bigtime as the plants take up tons of nutes, and aeration simply changes O2/CO2 ratios, dissolved CO2 affects pH. Anyway, long story short--I check my pH now every few days. Everyday I top off the rezzies to try and minimize variances. The continuous NFTs are sucking up more water than the intermittent, which seems odd. It might be turning into humidity with the waterfall effect? Or else they loves it.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 15, 2009)

streetlegal said:


> Is this directed towards me? cos i couldnt work it out?..
> ccksukr..work that one out


I take it back your just silly slutted over punked Junior high schooler. If you can't work something out it is only because you like taking it so deep. Your now on my ignore list you sloppy. over punked Girlie Boy, bitcha.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 15, 2009)

repvip said:


> Just smoke a bowl and blame it on the wireless keyboard!
> 
> Don't scare off fatman yet, I want to learn from this ol' timer
> 
> ...


----------



## streetlegal (Dec 15, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> I take it back your just silly slutted over punked Junior high schooler. If you can't work something out it is only because you like taking it so deep. Your now on my ignore list you sloppy. over punked Girlie Boy, bitcha.


a slutted punk bitcha.. hmm
That ignore list would be getting pretty long hey fartman? Considering the amount of beef u get from trying to be everybodys answer to the question noone asked. one of the last posts i read from fartman he was telling someone they they were soo dumb that they fuck dogs.

RV i dont think u could learn anymore from fartman then u could learn from a hot-air balloon


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## repvip (Dec 15, 2009)

streetlegal said:


> a slutted punk bitcha.. hmm
> That ignore list would be getting pretty long hey fartman? Considering the amount of beef u get from trying to be everybodys answer to the question noone asked. one of the last posts i read from fartman he was telling someone they they were soo dumb that they fuck dogs.
> 
> RV i dont think u could learn anymore from fartman then u could learn from a hot-air balloon


Honestly, I can't believe he hates Earl. Who could do that? Too much negativity for me.


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## streetlegal (Dec 15, 2009)

repvip said:


> Honestly, I can't believe he hates Earl. Who could do that? Too much negativity for me.


Hes a troll, he beefs everybody.. moving on

So RV, ur yield is about the same with both ak and cheese yeh? i think the cheese is more scrog suited but ive never grown it... Got any strains in mind?


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## fatman7574 (Dec 15, 2009)

Hey I just gota be honest. There are 4 people on my ignore list. Much smaller than my friend list. Yes I dislike punks. I sure get a lot of rep points and PM's so I must be helping some. The only Earl I dislike is the CC Earl. He is a dumb ass bitcha. The Earl child above I just replied to in kind. Well, maybe a bit harshly. I had no idea the little boys name was Earl until he said so.


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## repvip (Dec 15, 2009)

streetlegal said:


> So RV, ur yield is about the same with both ak and cheese yeh? i think the cheese is more scrog suited but ive never grown it... Got any strains in mind?


Those yields were with blue cheese. I have done a few AK's mixed in, to get an idea if I would like it. It actually finishes in 7 weeks as advertised.. with little branching--it will fit nice in my setup. The few plants that I have done were all ~1/4oz dried, so I'm looking forward to doing an entire run with it soon. Still building up clones for that! 

The blue cheese smells exactly like the breakfast cereal Trix! It is so nice, an absolute favorite, now, in these ol parts. I had two nice phenotypes from seed, one mostly sativa, the other a perfect pix indica/sativa. The sativa took 12+ weeks to finish... eff that. The percfect mix takes just over 8 weeks. The only downside is that it branches, a lot. It stays very short and uniform. A pleasure to manicure. 

I don't have any other strains in mind... if and when I get something else, will hopefully be from a dispensary. Judging by what people recommend, I would grow some sort of kush, goo, northern lights. I don't like purple bud. I would never grow it.


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## repvip (Dec 15, 2009)

streetlegal have you started a setup yet? 

What sort of strains do you have in mind?

I spent a few hours messing around with sprayers, sprinklers, misters and foggers today. They all suck. With low pressure water pumps. I actually think 1/16" holes drilled every 6" in 1/2" PVC will work the best. In test run, the jet stream collides with the wall or ceiling of the fence posts, depending on how you aim of course, and creates a nice explosion of water and mist, like niagara falls on it's side. The holes are small enough to still produce a considerable stream, while not letting out gallons of water. I doubt they will ever plug. 

Here's to simplicity!


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## sherriberry (Dec 15, 2009)

fatman, sorry to keep budding you... but i need to order these parts to get the bloom station built asap!

i get the barbed sprayers... 

and from there im lost.

which T's do i need, or do i need any T's at all?

which line do i need, the 3/8 or the 1/4?

and which stems do i order (which size and part number) from the johny site.

and if im missing anything else.

the solenoids and the pvc pipe, and putting it all together i can figure out. Thanks!


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## fatman7574 (Dec 15, 2009)

Maybe I can't teach a slut child anything when he already thinks he knows everything, but I have taught you dude. Thanks for the Rep points and compliment. You play all sides I guess. "You got a fine mind on ya! -repvip" Posted 12-14-09


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## fatman7574 (Dec 15, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> fatman, sorry to keep budding you... but i need to order these parts to get the bloom station built asap!
> 
> i get the barbed sprayers...
> 
> ...


The Tee's are not really necessary but it makes things neater and simplier. Without the Tee's you would have to use a seperate connection for every mister attached to your feed pipe. I would just use the adapter in 1/4" http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2988-stem-adapter-polypro-14-x-14-nptf.aspx the Tee's in 1/4". http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2978-union-tee-polypro-14.aspx and If you do not use that method then use the 1/4" Male connector. http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2971-male-connector-nptf-polypro-14-x-14-nptf.aspx One for each nozzle. 

I use 1" feeder pipes just bacause it is easier to drill and tap as it is a flatter surface being a larger curve. Scedule 80 pie in 3/4" works extremely well but amny places do not have it in long lengths. It is a lot thicker so it allows for more threads.

I use the barbed misters not the threaded. They are very easy to insert if you heat end inch of the small tubing for 10 or 15 seconds in a cup of hot water. It hardens up again as soon as it cools and selas tightly.


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## repvip (Dec 15, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> Maybe I can't teach a slut child anything when he already thinks he knows everything, but I have taught you dude. Thanks for the Rep points and compliment. You play all sides I guess. "You got a fine mind on ya! -repvip" Posted 12-14-09


my god bro.. when was I negative to you?

You need to chill out.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 15, 2009)

My bad, it was just streetlegal that posted his usual boat load of crap. I wrongly accredited it to you. My apologies. Sorry.


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## erakattack (Dec 15, 2009)

just wanted to see if this would work
/Users/erik/Desktop/the box/IMG_0420.JPG


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## repvip (Dec 15, 2009)

Welp some of your ideas are completely opposite from mine, which I like--makes me think from a different angle. I try to be nice to everyone, but it's hard. 

I definitely like the venturi valve. I had no idea what that was for, to be honest. I'm confused how you get it before the pump intake, do you mean remove the filter+case and get it connected before the chopper (or whatever, the blade) in the pump? 

Most of the adapters look like they hook up to the outlet of the pump--doesn't that work?


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## fatman7574 (Dec 15, 2009)

repvip said:


> Welp some of your ideas are completely opposite from mine, which I like--makes me think from a different angle. I try to be nice to everyone, but it's hard.
> 
> I definitely like the venturi valve. I had no idea what that was for, to be honest. I'm confused how you get it before the pump intake, do you mean remove the filter+case and get it connected before the chopper (or whatever, the blade) in the pump?
> 
> Most of the adapters look like they hook up to the outlet of the pump--doesn't that work?


If you place it on the exhaust size the bubbles would be larger. Usually on about ever pump under the screened entry cover is jsut a 1/2' or 3/4 inch hole entering the pump. It would just be plugged into that hole. The water coming out will look almost milky as it will be so full of small bubbles. A lot of the bubbles can be so small that they do not even readily rise immediately to the surface but instead stick to what ever surface they touch untill all the O2 is dissolved in the water whereby most of the other gases then rise to the surface.


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## panta (Dec 15, 2009)

I just saw this thread,this is the same thing i made initialy to be a dwc table for sog but after a slime atack on my grow i found it very difficult to maintain,this is a plywood 4x7 feet table 2x600w hps,so now want to make it a mediumless ebb and flow with the pump running 24/7 or to tilt and do a NFT,any advice what would be a better system /less maintanance bigger yeild potencial/ ,if u have a good source of info on nft please post a link


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## fatman7574 (Dec 15, 2009)

I have many years education in the sciences and I am always invloved in somw water relar ted reserch so I try to stay infomed. Most of evert yhing I write is based upon science and therest upon 35 years of indoor growing experience using methodologies that usually is based upon recomendtaions coming from recomendations based upon resaarch work by others or myself. I use a lot of instrumentation and do a lot of record keeping.


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## repvip (Dec 15, 2009)

panta said:


> I just saw this thread,this is the same thing i made initialy to be a dwc table for sog but after a slime atack on my grow i found it very difficult to maintain,this is a plywood 4x7 feet table 2x600w hps,so now want to make it a mediumless ebb and flow with the pump running 24/7 or to tilt and do a NFT,any advice what would be a better system /less maintanance bigger yeild potencial/ ,if u have a good source of info on nft please post a link


 
That table looks great for a flood and drain, to me. It obviously floods well, since it was designed for DWC. I think you would have to use a medium of some sort, but certain mediums are reusable, with a good cleaning. Then a way to control how often to flood, and for how long. There are floats to control the level... would be pretty low maintenance once it was setup.

Not sure about a mediumless ebb and flow... I never seen it...

With strict NFT it will be a little more maintenance, as the rez is constantly recirculated and needs to be tightly controlled. It is super, super easy and cheap to set up. 

However, I've yet to see a NFT grow outperform a good Aero with adequate drainage, i.e. aero/nft...


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## sherriberry (Dec 15, 2009)

anyone ever seen fans blowing air around in an aero root chamber?

other than the obvious difficulty of keeping the fans dry so they dont short out...

any thoughts on this idea?


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## repvip (Dec 16, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> anyone ever seen fans blowing air around in an aero root chamber?
> 
> other than the obvious difficulty of keeping the fans dry so they dont short out...
> 
> any thoughts on this idea?


I'm not sure a blower or large fan would be a good idea, though you could split the ducting easily. Overdrying the roots might be a concern? 

I have read of large NFT businesses actually using a compressor with piping through the channels, with holes drilled in the pipe. This rests in the channels and further aerates the water. Actually, now that I think about it... I doubt it aerates the water in such a thin layer, I guess it just provides more oxygen directly to the roots.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 16, 2009)

It is not uncommon to use a simple small air lin 1/4" from an aquarium air pump stuck through a drilled hole in the end cap of aero tubes. As it ith system water being sprayed running 24/7 through 10 gph plus sprayers (as is typical) you can provide qiuite a large amount of air and still some benefit. but you would receive much more if you just srayed inermittant wi and used higher pressure am nd misters instaead of low pressure. Deep water negates the benefits of aero because the benefits of aero is roots in air not lying submereged in water.

I have seen many intermittant sprayed NTF systems provide better yields and they do so with much less incidence of Root Rot than low pressure aero systems in tubes. Low 

Low pressure aero systems would operate much better in chambers. They perform better in deep chambers that even 6' or 8" tubes. smply put if the roots sre not under a deep layer of water they perform better. Thin spread roots lying not in deep water, thin layer of water running through thin layer of roots show little difference. Thin spray(mist) with roots in air having the obvious advantage.

The commercial NTF growing operation do not used compressed air run through tubes. Close but not quite. They use air from regenerative blowers. http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1027/Regenerative-Blowers-by-Sweetwater They are high volume, low pressure blowers used to supply Oxygen laden air to the system. They are not used with the intention of adding DO to the water, but as suggested to assure a fresh continual suply of oxygenated air to the nearly enclosed channels. The channels are too long to just simply add air at the end. Commercial channels are typically 40 to 80 feet long. 

I have a couple of the blowers. They are too noisy to use in a house even though they are very small 1/4 HP Gast blowers. They whine. I will use mine in a few remote grows where noise does not matter. They will supply air to large air atomizer systems. They use high volume low pressure air. They do not sound like a compressor at all. More like the whine of a car starter motor, only continuous. Mine put out 42 cubic foot per mimute each but only at a pressure of 1.5 psi maximum.

It is *sad* but most AERO systems are just copies od CC Earl's sad continous low pressure system. Using a low pressure high volume pumps, high volume sprayers that shoot assorted size streams of water. They use too small tubes so most of the roots sit in low DO deep water 24/7. They have many root rot problems and perform much worse than large chamber aero or even aero in large tubes. But they are *cheap systems*.


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## panta (Dec 16, 2009)

repvip said:


> I'm not sure a blower or large fan would be a good idea, though you could split the ducting easily. Overdrying the roots might be a concern?
> 
> I have read of large NFT businesses actually using a compressor with piping through the channels, with holes drilled in the pipe. This rests in the channels and further aerates the water. Actually, now that I think about it... I doubt it aerates the water in such a thin layer, I guess it just provides more oxygen directly to the roots.


i have the same table running as ebb and flow.im just trying to find a good way kick the medium out of it,in nft why do i need more time for maintanance tha ebb and flow,do u just turn the pump off so the solution drains to the res so u can adjust it and turn the pump back on


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## streetlegal (Dec 16, 2009)

repvip said:


> streetlegal have you started a setup yet?
> 
> What sort of strains do you have in mind?
> 
> ...


Hey man, ah bluecheese, the bberry would make it alot more suited to sog (assuming its a bberry x)

Ive got a stink set-up which is packed up atm, i had an inspection recently. My mums are medicine man and black widow cuts which are making themselves useful elsewhere.. Ill be moving in Feb to a place with ducted a.c, i had a hard battle with rez temps and temps in general so that will be a relief. Ive got a portable 15 or 16thou portable a.c which could make a dent in temps but no hope when temps got realy high..


Ive just popped a pack Whiteberry from paradise for new mums, 4 popped 1 i squished trying to scuff it after 5-6 days in paper towel and 1 froze (got up then just stopped dead) so i have three which kinda pisses me off $80 odd for 3 seeds. These WB's are also a strange lime green color (not really showing up in pic) worried me a bit, was like they needed nutes so young so i gave my biggest seedling a light feed but i just think they are naturally lighter in coloring
And im vegging 2 cuts from a friend which are unknowns but good yielders, i think they probably a nice Chronic pheno. ive got these in coco, my first time.

The strains which i think ud have a good chance of finding a winning single cola 8 week pheno are:
White Rhino 
Mr Nice- Shit
Chimera- bBerryxGrapefruit (same as SOL sweettooth1.1)
Chimera- Mental Floss
Mosca Negra- Grapefruit Fly (GFxC99)
Mosca Negra-Cinderella99 bx1
SOL-Blubonic
Ledgends-L.U.I (ledgends ultimate indica)
SOL- Donk
Mandala- Hashberry
My WhiteBerry pack says "very fast to flower and particularly well suited to sea of green grows. White Berry is model marijuana, slender and medium in height, with fresh green good looks and a single-cola dominance" 50 days flowering.

So forget the sprayers and jet direct out the pcv! another great fucking idea man that hadnt even crossed my mind. From reading ur posts RV i think ur alot smarter then u give urslf credit for, u have a good comprehension of some of the more advanced aspects of growing..

I had a conversation with a friend today about aero/nft, his thinkng was water sprayrs hitting roots at high pressure would hurt/damage the roots in the same way that water hurts ur skin if someone sprays u with the hose from close quarters


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## repvip (Dec 16, 2009)

streetlegal said:


> I had a conversation with a friend today about aero/nft, his thinkng was water sprayrs hitting roots at high pressure would hurt/damage the roots in the same way that water hurts ur skin if someone sprays u with the hose from close quarters


Looks good mate!

First, I have to say that, I can't find a good way to properly operate sprayers or misters using low pressure, high flow pumps. A high pressure pump would solve all of these problems, and is probably where I will end up eventually.

In the meantime, I know the stinkbud systems work great, with high-flow sprayers and low pressure. The only problem is small channels and drainage. I think 1/4-1/2" of good draining medium in the bottom of my fence posts will make a huge difference. 20, 1/64" holes in ~25ft 1/2" pvc powered by 1056gph pump does put out streams of water, but not jet streams like it does with fewer holes. The pvc pipe is anchored to the top of the fence posts, inside, with the holes directly facing the opposite wall. From what I can tell, the collision with the wall causes small splashing, spraying droplets and increasing humidity, enough to get the net pots wet. The rest of the water flows down the side of the wall, then the bottom and out. A small amount of well-draining medium will be perfect, I think.

Either way, it's an improvment over NFT with the input at one end. Now there are multiple inputs, which could still be used as drippers with a smaller pump for continuous NFT. Plus, in the future when I get a higher pressure pump, I will be able to drill the holes larger and install misters.


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## repvip (Dec 16, 2009)

Speaking of ideas...

I want to see what happens with 2-3 week old clones from DWC transferred into an aero system.


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## streetlegal (Dec 16, 2009)

repvip said:


> Looks good mate!
> 
> First, I have to say that, I can't find a good way to properly operate sprayers or misters using low pressure, high flow pumps. A high pressure pump would solve all of these problems, and is probably where I will end up eventually.
> 
> .


*1.* PSI > 30, *50*=Ideal, 100 psi even better.
*2.* Interval cycling 20-30 seconds on, 3-4 minutes off (Dark periods may extend dry periods).
*3.*Average droplet size *50µ (micron) nozzles* (acceptable ranges 30-80µ) with flows < 2 gph preferably .5-1gph with *screen filters of 150* and up.

This wot ur going for RV? Fuck im curious to see the yield difference u'd get..
Start looking at BIGGER channels, so big that the roots are suspended in air. Going down the TAG road

*5.* The greater the aerospace around the root zones the better*lateral root development equals bud thickness* and development your goal are pom pom roots.

Media in the posts is another thing i hadnt even considered,.. Although does take away from the 'media-less growing' concept.. But wouldnt the roots just grow through the media into the bottom of the channel, defeating its purpose?


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## repvip (Dec 16, 2009)

streetlegal said:


> *1.* PSI > 30, *50*=Ideal, 100 psi even better.
> *2.* Interval cycling 20-30 seconds on, 3-4 minutes off (Dark periods may extend dry periods).
> *3.*Average droplet size *50µ (micron) nozzles* (acceptable ranges 30-80µ) with flows < 2 gph preferably .5-1gph with *screen filters of 150* and up.
> 
> ...


They would eventually grow through, but think how much more root mass would be suspended in air, and how much easier it would drain. The medium would need to be super low density. 

Point number 5 is key.. It's why I want to take clones from DWC into these units.... Wish I could get two fence posts on top of another, to have twice the air volume. I've even thought of cutting 4" pvc into 4" length's, and installing them over the fence post holes.. Could probably get a reducer that would fit right down to a 2 or 3" net pot. 

The stinkbud veg units work great. The ones with 2 rubbermaids on top of each other. They drain soon as they are sprayed, which must be part of it. Trying to model that in a fence post... just not enough volume!

I'd be going for 1 and 2 eventually. Those pumps are pricier, then will need another cycle timer, not to mention I use organic nutes.. I would prob switch to general hydroponics in that case--I'm certain there are clogging issues...

Have you ever done drywall? I put some plastic molding for corner walls in the bottom of the fence posts. The holes are actually 1/16", not 1/64", and there are now 40 pointed at the ceiling. This causes water to run down the walls and ceiling, when it reaches the net pots it runs down them, plus the ceiling drips a lot.


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## sherriberry (Dec 16, 2009)

so you think the stinkbud fence posts would be too small if you spaced the plants a foot appart.. and had the 50 micron sprayers in there between each plant?

where does one get the 150 screen, i assume this is a pre filter for the feed lines so the sprayers dont get clogged? 

let me know


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## repvip (Dec 16, 2009)

I don't think they are too small. Guaranteed it will work. It might not be optimal... fatman would be a good time to chime in.

The obvious problem is, if you are using 2" net pots, they are typically 2" deep as well... so roots have only 2" more before they hit bottom...

If you could suspend the roots more it would work so much better. I have been trying to figure out how to place a net at the 2" level for some time.

Anyone with more experience should chime in ..

edit: dunno about the screen, a hydro store for sure one would think? maybe where you get the misters,,


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## fatman7574 (Dec 16, 2009)

*IMHO* Just skip the NFT aspect and go a few steps up the ladder in efficiency!! You might want to consider using chambers instead. From Home Depot or Lowes you can cheaply buy plastic utility sinks. Roughly 24" square. Just throw on a plexiglass lid with net pot holes. Insert mister heads inside with 1/4" tubing. *Aero chambers.* They have sloped bottoms and a drain hole already. They are cheap. Throw down a piece of plastic lighting grid with a layer of silk screen over that so roots do not damn up water and end up sitting in low DO water. They chambers are atll enough to get huge rrot system with little not hanging in air. Spray a second or two once per minute. Use about 1/3 strength nutrients. Use a medium pressure Iwaki pump for economy with say four 1 gph misters per cube.

Sink: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xnr/R-100415928/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Pump: http://cgi.ebay.com/Iwaki-Magnet-Pump-Model-MD-30RZT-115NL-Unused_W0QQitemZ230413386917QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Pumps?hash=item35a5b544a5

Fittings: http://www.freshwatersystems.com/c-500-john-guest-pp-range-white-polypropylene-fittings.aspx

Misters: http://www.dripirrigation.com/index.php?cPath=43&sort=2a&page=3



*From there it is ust one more step to high pressure aero or air atomized chamber grows. They are where its at in peak growth/performance.*


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## repvip (Dec 16, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> *From there it is ust one more step to high pressure aero or air atomized chamber grows. They are where its at in peak growth/performance.*


Thanks buddy!! That was perfect timing. I'd rep ya again, but I can't--so you get one of these


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## streetlegal (Dec 17, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> *IMHO* Just skip the NFT aspect and go a few steps up the ladder in efficiency!! You might want to consider using chambers instead. From Home Depot or Lowes you can cheaply buy plastic utility sinks. Roughly 24" square. Just throw on a plexiglass lid with net pot holes. Insert mister heads inside with 1/4" tubing. *Aero chambers.* They have sloped bottoms and a drain hole already. They are cheap. Throw down a piece of plastic lighting grid with a layer of silk screen over that so roots do not damn up water and end up sitting in low DO water. They chambers are atll enough to get huge rrot system with little not hanging in air. Spray a second or two once per minute. Use about 1/3 strength nutrients. Use a medium pressure Iwaki pump for economy with say four 1 gph misters per cube.
> 
> Sink: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xnr/R-100415928/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
> 
> ...


This is some nice fucking info


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## fatman7574 (Dec 17, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> so you think the stinkbud fence posts would be too small if you spaced the plants a foot appart.. and had the 50 micron sprayers in there between each plant?
> 
> where does one get the 150 screen, i assume this is a pre filter for the feed lines so the sprayers dont get clogged?
> 
> let me know


 
Nothing is going to completely stop all particulate formation. I use standard housing tyoe filers as areused as sediment prefilters as with an RO filter. I use a largerer micron size (20 micro) than I use with my RO filters. The 20 micron are small enough to trap any sediments/particulates that would clog sprayers but not so small as to lower water pressure. Just a standard 10" cartridge. http://cgi.ebay.com/Polyspun-20-Micron-Sediment-Water-Filter-Purifier-10_W0QQitemZ170417644553QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Home_Appliances?hash=item27adaee409 

It also helps to use a filter bag where the water returns to the reservoir to remove bits and peices of organics. http://cgi.ebay.com/5-4-x14-25-Micron-Polyester-Filter-Bags-SVO-Biodiesel_W0QQitemZ270289014420QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3eee7b0e94


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## sherriberry (Dec 17, 2009)

reading between the lines...

wouldnt the 3/4 gph provide a smaller micron size than the 1 gph sprayers?

also...

when applying this to the stink bud fence posts (which i am doing on this setup, but may build more later with a bigger root chamber like your sink or tub)

... i would think that the THREADED sprayers would go right into pvc pipe the same way we drill holes for the 10/32 screw in sprayers stink bud uses.

this would make it a heck of a lot easier to install into the fence post pipe, and adjust mister angles if everything was rigid attached to a pvc line. 

thanks


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## fatman7574 (Dec 17, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> reading between the lines...
> 
> wouldnt the 3/4 gph provide a smaller micron size than the 1 gph sprayers?
> 
> ...


The 3/4 gph provide the same micron size water droplets, just less of them (ie less flow).

The threads really strip out very easily in the PVC pipe. If you use the John Guest fittings you do not have to ever unscrew the fitting from the PVC pipe you just unplug the hose with the mister attached and plug in a spare. The spray heads are just stuck into a hole drilled through the fense post pipe. Just part of the mister goes into the pipe and a lip plus the nipple stays outside the pipe. It just friction fits into the hole in the fence post. It is not threaded in or glued etc. 

I have no idea what stink bud does or is doing. I just know that PVC schedule 40 pipe is very soft and the threads are usually only good for one use. PVC pipeis usually only threaded when it is the thicker schedule 80 pipe. Even then it is threaded with coarse pipe threads, not fine threads like the 10/32 threads. Many times the small 10/32 theads in the PVC pipe strip out the first time you thread something into them if your not careful. That is why I just use some PVC cement and permanently install John Guest fittings.


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## sherriberry (Dec 17, 2009)

good info fatman.

I can see the john guess is the better way to go, however, i had to go ahead and order some, and i got the threaded ones.

they arent expensive, and i alreayd have the pvc pipe, which is also not expensive...

so worse case scenario i cement them into the pvc... ill let you know how it goes.

what im doing just to get me by for a while is building an air tight room that is about 6ft x 8ft, and TRY to contain smell.

im going to have an exhaust fan at the top go through a carbon filter, and an inlet fan down low (and actually have a weak carbon filter on the way in to keep out bugs, etc)

but heres the cool part...

im going to cut the square holes in the side of the room walls (panda wrap that is jsut framed up with some 2x3's)

the tips of the fence posts will come OUTSIDE the room, and there will be an air tight seal (waterproof tape) around the edge of the post to the panda wrap, and my res will be OUTSIDE the room.

this will allow me to go higher on the temps in the room, higher on the co2, and the fense posts will only have access to cooler outside room, higher oxygen air.

plus i wont have to enter exit my smell proof room (whihc defeats the purpose in the first place) when i need to change or add res fluid (...every day i add a pitcher 

so to keep the sprayers and the plumbing WITHIN the fence post, i see it the simplest and most cost effective right now just to have a 1/2 pvc and screw them directly into that, and position it in the top corner of the post all the way down the length, and tilt the sprayers down at a 45 deg angle from the corner of the post.

i know it wont be optimal root space, however, if a person was doing sog, the plants CANT get that big anyway, so limited root space becomes a mute point.

I will still be using your big kwikiwiwki pump  Ordered one today.

thanks bro for all the tips


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## repvip (Dec 17, 2009)

I love the idea of keeping your reservoirs outside the room! Wish I would have got 100" fence posts and done the same thing. I guess it's still possible to install end caps, drain hoses, and move the rezzies, but getting sick of changing shit 

On the bright side, the fence posts are strong enough to walk on! During harvest, I end up crawling on top to get the rear ladies. A simple 2'x4' frame holds them up.

fatman what sort of backup power supply do you have for your pumps, in case of power outtage?

sherriberry how are you going to control humidity? Will you exhaust on a timer, with timed CO2 injections? Or are you going with a ppm controller?

I think keeping the reservoirs outside the room will help a lot with your humidity.. I can watch mine jump when the pumps turn on, then the dehumidifier turns on, then it heats up and the a/c kicks on and repeat


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## fatman7574 (Dec 17, 2009)

I cheat I have a propane fired electric start generator at my home and at the few in towns rooms. The remotes are all powered by Lister diesel generators. I have only had one go down in over 20 years. They get shut down briefly for oil changes and even less often for valve adjustments, otherwise they just clatter along. There is at least on person living at every site and smaller generators to cover maintenance periods and short outages. There are at least 4 or 5 short 10 to 30 minute outages every winter here. Dozens of hick ups just long enough to shut every thing down. I have sure start timers on the lights though so that is no problem. They just wait ten minutes after a power outage then restart. The timers are all Omrons timers so they reset them selves from internal memory and batteries. Plus there are safeties built in such as flow valves on the pumps and water cooled light circulation pumps. Even the air conditioning is tied in. Basically if there is anything that does not restart and run then the lights do not come back on. The plants can put up with a lot of other problems as long as their not being hit with intense lighting.


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## streetlegal (Dec 17, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> good info fatman.
> 
> I can see the john guess is the better way to go, however, i had to go ahead and order some, and i got the threaded ones.
> 
> ...


Looking good Sheriberry, almost ready for lift off

Repvip: I wanted my rez's out of the grow room cos of temp issues but wasnt really possible in my situation. good info on that follow on effect u get with dehumidi and then air-con.

My original plan for my new set-up was to build SOG's daisy chained res chiller- only 1 chiller is needed for all rez's, hose is ran from a bucket of chilled water which is joined to a aluminium cannister in each res (boost bottle from Moose Racing) then daisy chained to the next res etc cool water is recirculated thru the hoses

ALOT of good info in this thread, GL to anyone else trying to make sense of it tho


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## sherriberry (Dec 17, 2009)

honestly, this grow, and this bloom room is temporary... i just need something asap because my seeds are now all over a foot tall, working their way higher!

ill probably have to top them once i figure out if they are male or female.

anyway... 

the c02 wont be in this bloom room probably...

eventually, i will do the same idea, with the 100 inch posts, and compensate for the root limitations by limiting the plants spaces, and acheive a equalibrium, for a good sog setup... but not necessarilly hardcore lollipopped plants, but not big thick bushes either...

anyway... the next room will have a protable AC inside it...

and no exhaust fan ... at least not one that runs constantly.

plants dont need fresh air... they just need co2... so the room will be air tight, and have a co2 setup.

all tanks and controllers will of course be outside the room, and all the fence posts will stick out the wall of the room. 

I like the small fence posts for now, the 100s cut in half to 50.

now lets talk nutes

fatman, where you at


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## fatman7574 (Dec 17, 2009)

Do you want to mix your own or just buy nutes. Mixing realy is easy. You would spend about $323 initially to get the best costs for mixing. That price would be cut by about 1/3 if you bought the three 50 pound bag ingrediants from a farm supply store (fertilizer and feed store). That would give you fertilizers make at OVER 35 gallons of x100 concentrates with lots of left overs.

*Lucas Method* *mix 
*
*ppm
*Nitrogen 167
Phosphorus 333
Potassium 397
Magnesium 100
Calcium 215
Sulfur 133
Iron 3.33
Manganese 1.67
Boron 1.67
Zinc 1.00
Copper .33
Molybdenum .03


*Ounces in mix*

*Part A
*Calcium Nitrate 498.1
Iron Chelate 15.75

*Part B
*MonoPotassium Phosphate 735.1
Magnesium Sulfate 472.6
Manganese Sulfate 3.138
Boric Acid / Solubor 4.288
Zinc Sulfate 2.040
Copper Sulfate .685
Ammonium Molybdate .026

*Volume of Stock Solutions 35 gallons
*
*17.5 gallons Part A, 17.5 gallons Part B*

*Dilution Rate 100 to 1*

Costs are as if buying ingrediants from Crop King, an online green house supply store. Not the cheapest source but it gives you a fair Idea what is a looking price for ingrediants. It would take nearly all the 50 pound bag of Mono Pottasium sulfate for 35 gallons of cocentarate, ie 735 ounces of 800 ounces. However it would leave enough Mag sulfate for nearly 30 gallons more anfd enough calcium nitrate for 25 or 30 gallons more. The other trace elements are mostly one pound except the irion at 5 pounds. This shows even from a high dollar retailer the costs are less than 10 dollars per gallon. 

That is for a x100 concentrate, so 3500 gallons of nutrient diluted to an *EC of 2.72, with a TDS of 1904 and a pH of 5.4 *

*Can't but it from GH or AN for 10 dollars per gallon.*


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## streetlegal (Dec 19, 2009)

So i was wondering if its worth up-grading to high psi pump + misters if ur still only going to be using 4 inch channels, not grow chambers .. Is it worth the outlay$ if ur still going to be using channels


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## fatman7574 (Dec 19, 2009)

While the use of a medium pressure pump and medium pressure sprayers set up to spray intermittantly would be a great improvement over the low pressure pump and misters or the low pressure high volume pump spraying water from a pipe drilled holes, that is not the case with high pressure or air atomized. The point behind the air misting or high pressure spraying is that they produce a cloud of mist/fog filling a large chamber. With small channels or tubes the vapor would just immediattely hit the near by walls and roots turning into running water instead of a mist/fog that would have lingers for a minute or so. It would just be a geat deal of extra money spent with no real gain. High pressure or air atomized spray is only beneficial economically in larger more open areas lke large chambers. 

This could possibly be worked around with air atomized systems as you can get the nozzles with very small flow outputs, but the cost would be very high as they would have to be used about every two foot of tube length. However, the small nozzles and the larger nozzles cost the same. Two small nozzles would be good for four plants 6 inches or more apart so one nozzle for two SOG plants. Typically Two larger nozzles are used in a 9 square foot chamber ( meter squared) with 32 plants in SOG. ie one nozzle per 16 plants. Each nozzle plus its adapter cost abot $40. The n medium pressure nox zzles cost $0.79 each. 

Air atomized nozzles spray in a cone rather than the big wide circlular pattern of the misters. High pressure sprayers are some where in between the mister circle and and the cone spray pattern. The economics is just not good with air atomizers in tubes. There are no high pressure misters small enough in flow to make high pressure really work well or economical except in chambers or really large tubes (say 12" or preferably 18'). 

There are also more issues with nutrients with the minimal water sprayed with the chamber high pressure or air atomiz zed systems. The EC must be much lower (0.25 to 0.65) and the concentration of trace nutrients must be at a lower percentage than the percentage (strength) used with more water as in low and medium pressure. 

It is easy to provide toxic levels of trace nutrient when using very little water and nearly all the water is taken in by the plants. With most high pressure and air atomized systems the goal is to shoot for no waste nutrient water. Meaning all water sprayed is used by the plants with none returning to the reservoir to be reused. Seldom is that state of precision ever fully achieved as plants uptake is always changing due to growth so extra is sprayed, but it can be gauged well enough that draining the small amount of excess to waste can still be economical. This lack of reuse is nice as it eliminates all the frequent pH and EC adjustments plus your always assured the EC is based upon proper fertilizer ratios not unknown levels due to all nutrients not being used at the same rates. As long as you control replacement to the main nutrient reservoir supplying nutrients to the small reservoirs feeding the high pressure pump or the atomizer nozzles it nearly eliminates any need to check the EC and pH other than when when you initially mix the nutrients.


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## streetlegal (Dec 19, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> While the use of a medium pressure pump and medium pressure sprayers set up to spray intermittantly would be a great improvement over the low pressure pump and misters or the low pressure high volume pump spraying water from a pipe drilled holes, that is not the case with high pressure or air atomized. The point behind the air misting or high pressure spraying is that they produce a cloud of mist/fog filling a large chamber. With small channels or tubes the vapor would just immediattely hit the near by walls and roots turning into running water instead of a mist/fog that would have lingers for a minute or so. It would just be a geat deal of extra money spent with no real gain. High pressure or air atomized spray is only beneficial economically in larger more open areas lke large chambers.
> 
> This could possibly be worked around with air atomized systems as you can get the nozzles with very small flow outputs, but the cost would be very high as they would have to be used about every two foot of tube length. However, the small nozzles and the larger nozzles cost the same. Two small nozzles would be good for four plants 6 inches or more apart so one nozzle for two SOG plants. Typically Two larger nozzles are used in a 9 square foot chamber ( meter squared) with 32 plants in SOG. ie one nozzle per 16 plants. Each nozzle plus its adapter cost abot $40. The n medium pressure nox zzles cost $0.79 each.
> 
> ...


What can i say?! Great info Fatman 
Interesting read about nute delivery in the last paragraph.. Ima have to go back through the thread and re-read ur posts..
Heres some reading if anyones interested http://www.hydroponics.com.au/php/viewtopic.php?t=8
Its old but interesting


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## repvip (Dec 20, 2009)

I've been running one unit on constant NFT for over 2 weeks now and am really impressed with the results. It is beating my intermittent NFT in growth. Remember, I still think sprayers will be best--that is the next experiement..

Here's a root shot of the continuous NFT after 2 weeks. These plants are lighter green than my others, not sure why, but they also have the tightest internodes. Plants under the HPS are 2 weeks further along using intermittent NFT...

oh yeah, the root shot has a thin black piece of fabric on the bottom of the post. I use liquid karma which does make the roots look brown...


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## sherriberry (Dec 20, 2009)

k, so im not going to mix up my own nutes, i dont have time for that level of precision yet.

im using AN, and currently just using Boom and Micro in the lucas style format of 1:1 for veg, and about to go into bloom under a 1000w hps using the sprayers and fence posts as described earlier.

So as far as AN goes, what is a good bloom mix to use?

anyway, i was at lowes today, and saw a bunch of sump pumps, etc.

they werent that much money, many many under 100 bucks and up to 1hp.

anyway... just wondered what the difference is in the pump you recommended from ebay and those.

i bought your pump, so its all good, but i was just curious. I would think a sump pump could do high pressure as it has to pump water UP a high elevated hose, no?


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## fatman7574 (Dec 21, 2009)

Personally I believe 1 Part Micro and 1 Part grow is fine through out the grow if the nutrients are changed regularly. Lucas hoever recomends 1 Part Micro and 2 Parts Bloom.

The difference in the pump types is that nearly all pumps unless they are designed to use with an accumalator tank (as in a water well system) are flow biased pumps. This means they are designed chiefly with the intent of passing large volumes of water versus pumping at high pressures aginst high resistance. Also unless your getting a chemical or aquarium rated pump you are usually look at a pump with steel innner workings. Impeller shaft, bearings etc., they have a very short life span used woith fertilizer soultions.

Iwaki: http://www.iwakiwalchem.com/products/wmd.htm The standard aquarium, fountain, sump pumps pump water at a maximium of usually about 3 to 5 psi and pump to a maximum of about 4 to 10 feet height. All Iwaki pumps are higher pressure ratings then the chreapaer pumps even there flow biased pumps. Their high volume pumps move less volumethen lesser brand pumps of the same wattage size as a result of the higher pressures. The standard aquarium.fountain pumps used by most low pressure aero people like EARL are basically made to move large volumes of water where there is also no resistance. They are really considered just circulation pumps. Height, pipe friction, fittings, filters spray heads etc all cause resistance so the pumps pressure, volume and pumping height very quicklty drop. A medium or high pressure pump as in the MD-20RZT. MD-30RZT or the MD-70RZT are made to pump to much greater heights at much higher pressures. Like they will pup at three times the pressure against three times the resistance but they flow 1/3 or 1/4 as much water. With hyroponic systems using misters and sprayers you do not need large flow volumes, but you need that pressure/resistance power. This allows you to spray a mist/fog verus having to buy large flow sprayers with big holes that will allow the use of a low pressure pump. If you look at their output it is streams of water, not a spray, mist or fog.

Here is a Iwaki site chart showing their different magnetic drive pumps


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## donnie189 (Dec 21, 2009)

Any plans for these? I"ll be using the 4" fence posts. 
My buddy built his already, and is doing well. I'm hoping mind won't look so hand made. Any plans for the GH Aeroflow2?

ThAnks,

Donnie


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## streetlegal (Dec 21, 2009)

repvip said:


> I've been running one unit on constant NFT for over 2 weeks now and am really impressed with the results. It is beating my intermittent NFT in growth. Remember, I still think sprayers will be best--that is the next experiement..
> 
> Here's a root shot of the continuous NFT after 2 weeks. These plants are lighter green than my others, not sure why, but they also have the tightest internodes. Plants under the HPS are 2 weeks further along using intermittent NFT...
> 
> oh yeah, the root shot has a thin black piece of fabric on the bottom of the post. I use liquid karma which does make the roots look brown...


thanks RV, hella sick jungle pics and very handy info.. constant flow NFT shows better growth and tighter nodes YA HEARD.


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## sherriberry (Dec 21, 2009)

k, so this spreader mat, aka irrigation mat, aka nft mat... i searched around for them... 

and every site that has them is in the UK... and they are sold in euros, not dollars.

shipping costs would be crazy from there...

so im trying to figure out... who the hell has them around here?

I tried cropking.com they have them but i think since i want such a low quantity of it.... they said sorry, cant help... and i asked for 50 ft of it.

so... any suggestions?

i know what would be the perfect material... they have woven plastic... youll usually see it in bags or something...

but it would never degrade, and if you could cut it to the proper shape and size... i think it would work well.

Found some of it on the net, but its in china.

i just cant win.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 21, 2009)

Many growers in th US just use silk screen cloth. http://cgi.ebay.com/50-x118-120-mesh-count-48T-fabric-silk-screen-printing_W0QQitemZ280440663370QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item414b90ed4a. 

Polyester will not last forever but for a long time and it is readily available at most craft shops. Or stop by a silk screen shop. They are every where as silk screened T shirts and sweat shirts are still widely produced. Actually even many growers in Europe use silk screen cloth. There are also people who use aquarium polyester filter matting that comes in rolls in various thicknesses (not cheap). There are even a lot of growers who use astro turf in the bottom of their troughs. All have their own advantages and disadvantages. I even know a few growers who use bar matting. It is just platic matting that looks like a diamond mesh. Bar glasses are normally set on it while drying etc. Should be available at all restaurant supply houses. http://cgi.ebay.com/Johnson-Rose-Clear-Bar-and-Counter-Matting-73108_W0QQitemZ160384722065QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2557aca491


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## streetlegal (Dec 22, 2009)

Sup.. this isnt to dis-credit anyones grow style cos each to their own..but after some research reading etc ive come to the conclusion that true aero growing isnt for me.. I started out very excited to design a new aero set-up, and ill say that i like to grow more then perso stash, and it isnt a viable road for me to take..taking into account things things that affect me personally like maintaining ideal temps in the climate im in, start-up capital etc..
I havnt found there to be a significant enough increase in yield (if any, 1 ounce per plant in sog) or speed to justify the set-up and maintenance of a true aero system that turns over the number of plants that id be looking to flip.. That said i think it would be a rewarding and satisfying method to grow less plants/perso stash.. Ill stick to aero/nft hybrid, but saying that, ill try to implement some of the things ive learnt about aero into my nft/aero design and make an even better system..

Pom Pom Roots Ppl POM POM ROOTS!!


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## sherriberry (Dec 22, 2009)

really all you have to do is get a new pump, get the pre filters, and get the sprayers (all and all under 150 bucks)... and just put those inside the fence posts that you are already used to using, and keep the aero nft hybrid setup going... just with a better aero side.


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## sherriberry (Dec 22, 2009)

so fatman, what temp do i want the roots and what temp do i want the room with the plants in a perfect aero setup during bloom?


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## streetlegal (Dec 22, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> really all you have to do is get a new pump, get the pre filters, and get the sprayers (all and all under 150 bucks)... and just put those inside the fence posts that you are already used to using, and keep the aero nft hybrid setup going... just with a better aero side.


 Yeh sb, attaining a finer micron mist is one of the things i meant wen i said id implement some 'true aero' advantages into my grow (although i know fatman will say im missing the benefits bcos the mist will just be hitting the walls of the channel instead of 'hovering' around the roots, which is exactly right thanks fatman) but a medium pressure pump at the min would even be better..

SB i was referring to true aero, as in growing in chambers, not for me.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 22, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> so fatman, what temp do i want the roots and what temp do i want the room with the plants in a perfect aero setup during bloom?


That chiefly depends on the amount of Co2 you have available for the plants while the lights aree shining. If you are using no supplemental CO2 and little grow room ventilation ie ambient room air CO2 content from standard air movement, then you are limited to about the low to the mid 70's F. Ventilation can raise that to about 80 or 82 F. CO2 can pretty much remove the ceiling. 

You would just have to have, light, nutrients and water levels adequate to handlke the growth needs at elevated CO2 levels. That should not be a problems as long as you have at least 50 to 60 watts pers square foot of lighting. Lesser end for SOG and the higher end for taller plants. As long as you are spraying and running a thin film and not a deep water layer reservoir DO level is not that important. However the deper the water is at the root masses the higher the DO must be. So with thin film your CO2 layer is controlling, with a deep water level at and around the roots you go back to DO levels in the reservoir being the more controlling parameter so reservoir temperatures must be kept lower so as to be more readily able to maintain high DO levels. 

However you state your reservoir is outside the room. As long as you maintain low enough reservoir temps to maintain high water DO your plant temperatures will then again be dependant on grow room CO2 levels. This would mean a high of about 76 F extendable to mid 80's F with use of a venturi or needle wheel pump for the reservoir. With DWC it is best to have a DO of at least 3.0 mg/l for a minimum. That is not really that hard. As 6.75 mg/L would be the normal levels at 86 degrees F and 8.07 mg/L at 68 degrees would be a normal DO level for water at an EC of 2. With the roots exposed to air it is no problem with them under a thick layer it becomes a problem as O2 diffuses poorly so there must be a huge excess of DO in the water. 

Every body makes a huge out roar about DO at different temps but few ever mention that nature only normally supplies 16% more DO at 68 degrees as it does at 86 degrees in water with an EC of 2. They always go as far as looking at maximim DO possible in pure (fresh) water at the different temps but never consider the waters EC. Even at an EC of 1 nature only supplies about 0.50 mg/L more DO at 68 or 86 degrees F. One needs only know that the DO level in the ocean is naturally lower than the DO level in lake water to realise that they can not compare nutrient reservoir DO levels to principles of DO in fresh water. Water with a high EC does not have the ability to hold the DO saturation levels of low EC water. The chief problem is poor O2 diffusion as DO levels are relatively easy to obtain. DO presence does not mean DO availability.


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## sherriberry (Dec 23, 2009)

good lord, just give me ideal temps and ill keep it there

lets say res at 60 and room at 75?


good or bad?


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## fatman7574 (Dec 23, 2009)

That would be good, but res at 65 with room temp at 75 would be better. 

Higher on reservoir temps, say 65 to cause less shock to the roots due to temperature differences. There would be less than a 3% differences in DO between 60 and 65 so you should consider the root temp shock difference more important than the DO level difference.


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## streetlegal (Dec 23, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> good lord, just give me ideal temps and ill keep it there
> 
> lets say res at 60 and room at 75?
> 
> ...


baaa hahaha funny shiz
Bit low on the rez sherrib, 65-67, dont go into the 70's bra ur asking for funk problems.. and room of course 75,


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## fatman7574 (Dec 23, 2009)

The sky is falling, the sky is falling.


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## sherriberry (Dec 23, 2009)

off topic, but this whole thread is...

you should put up a pic of tesla instead.

einstein bowed to tesla. They ended up working together later in life and tesla was full of insults towards einstein earlier on...

and the crazy part... einstein never denied that teslas insults werent correct, and einstein ended up admitting that tesla had him beat mentally over 10 fold.

tesla is surpressed from history as much as possible because he makes our current "system" of life, religion, govt,... everythign obsolete.

his later inventions and understanding of science were unreal.

his first inventions only created the 20th century

AC electricity
radio
ac generators (plus installed the ones at niagra falls for the first time)
edison wouldnt let him use his light bulbs to light the first lit worlds fair, so tesla invented better ones IN A WEEK.
the cruise missle
one of the 4 computer gates (and, or, not, etc)
tesla coil (who knew 
and many technologies that are currently being used by HAARP (controlling the weather)
had an electric car that exceeded 100mph back when cars didnt go that fast
wirelss electricity (some jap guy is just finally figuring out how to do it)

and the most important of all if you want to compare him to einstein.

there are 4 sciences in which equations dont overlap

kenetic energy
electro magnatism
atomic physics
gravity

e=mc2 links kenetic and atomic.. thats why it is so profound.

but guess what, tesla wrote einstein a letter and said, yeah, you figured out one... but ive linked the other 3 together as well

shortly after they started working together, and then our navy MADE THEM work for the military under lock and key due to the begining of ww2.

tesla said he could cloak things, and he did, the war ship in the bay, and many witnesses saw it happen, him and einstein worked together on this.

the bullshit cover story is they sent the ship back in time... to make it sound rediculous... but the reality is they cloaked it.

he could speak before he was a year old, and he could read by the time he was 2, and he could speak 3 languages by the time he was 3.

the dude HATED the rest of the human race because he was so beyond us.

he invented everything he ventured into. holds over 1000 patents. and over half his shit is still classified.

einstein was nsync, and tesla was elvis


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## streetlegal (Dec 23, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> The sky is falling, the sky is falling.


Yo fatman, wot do u think of the nina http://www.urbangardenershop.com.au/category/12/default.asp0


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## fatman7574 (Dec 23, 2009)

I just posted the Eienstein Avaita as I knew it would draw comments. Einstein was a strange bird. He never learned to tie his own shoes. He loved drugs and alcohol and kept a cot in his laboratory as he frequently was too wacked to do any work. He hated the U.S. government, but hated Hitler more. Beiing a German born jew was not an asset at that time in history. His homes front door was painted bright read so he could find it. He frequently spents days in whore houses. He was a brilliant amn though. Tesla did only one thing well, electrical engineering, he claimed to also be an mechanical enginerr but was quite ineot oustide of all fields ec xcept electrical. Eienstein had a much broader thinking mind and was a physicist. I have a few engineering degrees and a physicist's amaze me. They have a braodunderstanding of the world around us while enginerrs are much mor limited. Tessla was not brillant enough to be a physicist so he became an engineer. Brillance is broad reaching not confining. Engineers learning knowledge and, mental gifts are usually much more confined to smaller more specific areas of science. Simply put in academia Eiensein would be considered a wall crawler. tessla was just a gifted electrical enginerr. A wall crao wler ois a person so into thinking that they walking along walls and darg their fingers on them while walking to j keep enough contact with reality to maange in the physical world. eienstein could spend a full day working in a room full of people and never talk to anyone, acknowledge their presensce, He would just walk around them if they stood in his path. they might as well as been a post or a tree. Tessle was an ego maniac with an inferiority complex that always talked and seldom listened to those around him. They were very different from each other. Comparing them by IQ's Eienstein would have left Tessla in the shadows easily. 

Tessla was an ass hole. Tessla was a copier and a reinventor or an user of others theories and thoughts. He would merely build what others thought up. Sorta like The U.S. enginners designing huge numbers of things then the asians and now the chinese just building them more cheaply. We are deso igners they are better at manafacturing cheaply. Eienstein was a great inventor and thinker. Tessla was really more of an engineer/manfacturer of others ideas. Tessla outside of Ethe electrical field had few original thoughts he just physically developed what other thought up in theory. Thessla was a builder and not a theeorizer. He was not brilliant enough to do that in any field but electrical. Outside electrical he k just was not good enough to have any original thoughts of any value.


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## sherriberry (Dec 23, 2009)

wow, way wrong on tesla bro... you read a book with edison influence...


when tesla was over in croatia or wherever he was from, his techers wrote edison a letter and said "this young man may very well be the most intelligent person on the planet."

teslas MOM was an inventor as well.

when edison brought tesla over to the US he made him a deal...

he had 20 inventions that his ENTIRE EDISON SCHOOL OF GENIUSES... couldnt get to work, including edison himself.

EDISON WAS THE FAKE, once you attended his schools, he would steal your ideas and claim them as his own.

Edison was in the mob... hands down, documented fact, study hollywood and its beginings and youll find out why it ended up in CA was to escape edisons thugs.

anyway... guess how many inventions tesla got working fo the 20...

half? 3/4? every one... he got them all working, all 20... and the deal was edison was supposed to pay him on those...

and edisons quote afterwards was "for as smart as you are you are perhaps the dumbest man because you forgot to sign a contract, welcome to america"

tesla then walked... and started screwing with ac electricity.

tesla and edison battled royaly in the public eye from then on out, bashing eachtoher.

the problem is edison was established, tesla was not, so its much harder to overcome that.

tesla invented radio... hands down.

edison was a key part in voting that marconi got the patent and that tesla didnt get a dime off it while he was alive.

as soon as tesla died, the us govt had no problem awarding tesla with the patent.

key officials in the us govt dont mind giving him credit, ut they were scared shitless if he had a good income of what he could come up with.

read the facts about colorado springs, his tower, and how the people ran him out when he started creating lightning bolts MILES long... its documented history in the towns paper.

all his shit is surpressed.... because it ends war.

it makes war obsolete.

and the world leaders understand earth does not hold infinite humans... so let the wars continue via the people who want to solve problems via violence... and isolate those individuals on a battlefield, and let them kill eachother off.

thats the global system. the teams are illusions for the apes... teams based on location of birth, skin color, and name of god...

think about that for a second and realize thats what wars are fought over, and then realize the world leaders dont like individuals who think that simple... and would rather that kind of person be the one to die... if someone has to die.

tesla's inventions were his own.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 23, 2009)

The only thing I am truly sure of is they were both a lot more gifted than me.

But, as I said there are thinkers/creators and doers. Tesla was not an original thinker but he could put to physical reality anything others thought up. Eienstein had difficulty figuring out the blade end from the handle end of a screw driver. He would b able to spout out metalurgy without ever studying the field. The crystalline structure of steel alloys would just be intuitive to him. Tesla would have to read about metalugy to have any understanding of the subject, but could easily forge out of steel anything need as described by a creator like Einstein without having been taught to do so. Cute story about Tessla and Eienstein not paying him. Fits right in with the fabricated Washington "Cherry Tree Story" or the Betsy Ross American flag story. They are just false creations of writers also. We have many of those created folk lore stories in our felonious American history books. 

Tessla was a good learner!! Not many original ideas ever came out of Tessla's head outside the field of electrical engineering and magnetic field work. I have a few engineering degrees but could never be a physicist or an electrical engineer. I think there are many people as smart and gifted as was Tessla. There are few in the past that compared with Eienstein. Likely there will be few in the future. Most inventors are seldom capable of building what they invent. I have worked with hundreds of brillant engineers who work in research that have scores of patents but few are capable of fixing a dripping kitchen faucet or change the oil in their car. Many can not balance a check book. Few are capable of tying a tie. I know a nationally acclaimed bridge designer that is mechanically inept. Eienstein was mechanically inept but a great thinker in all fields of science. Tessla was no where as good of a creative thinker but he was mechanically gifted. He was a builder/engineer not a creater.


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## repvip (Dec 23, 2009)

Einstein affected the world more than Tesla could ever dream!


fatman what do you think of these demand/delivery water pumps?
http://www.aquatec.com/delivery.htm
They can run intermittently, the flow is low ~1GPM at 40-60psi I believe... plus they have John Guest fittings built in!


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## fatman7574 (Dec 23, 2009)

I have a few of their smaller 12 volt booster pumps for some small RO systems. They are pretty noisy for small pumps. If they are starved for water because of a small feed line and low feed pressure they get down right loud as they will clatter. If I was to use a diaphragm pump for say a high pressure aero I would get a Sureflow instead. They have a much better track record amongst the high pressure aero chamber crowd. They use them with regular captive air pressure tanks as used with a well system. With the sureflows they pressurize to 100 psi and use water through low flow misters using solenoids and timers. The pumps then ony run a few minutes per hour.


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## sherriberry (Dec 23, 2009)

got my pump today. Just to make sure... its not submersible correct? haha, i dont think it is, but you never know 

im going to be running 30 sprayers with it.

I noticed one of the sprayers out of the many didnt vaporize the water and it stayed in stream more... should i just trash it?

also, can i hang the sprayers from the top, pointed down, or is that a no no?

thanks


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## sherriberry (Dec 23, 2009)

im in the pvc world... 3/4 inch to be exact...

im looking for a quick release setup so that i can attach and detach fence posts from the system.

i remember seeing some not too long ago... like a male and female with the 2 little bars on the female that you pull down and it locks them together. I have no idea what the fitting is called tho. Thanks


edit: nevermind i found them, and they are 10 bucks a piece, too expensive for my blood.... they are called quick release couplings


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## sherriberry (Dec 24, 2009)

im thinking about using the solenoid setup to alternate between the mist, and then the rest of the time, have it go a different path, to the top of the fence post, and do a little drinking fountain flow of water up there at the top of each post, and have it nft in the meantime until the next spray.

what do you think fatman, too much? should i just spray and let the roots dry and then spray again in 5 min?

btw, the screw in sprayers came today as well, and i just got done putting 5 into each pvc pipe that will be inside the post, which will each hold 5 plants (1 sprayer per plant)

they went in well, i used a 11/64 bit, and worked like a charm.

see you in the morning


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## streetlegal (Dec 24, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> im thinking about using the solenoid setup to alternate between the mist, and then the rest of the time, have it go a different path, to the top of the fence post, and do a little drinking fountain flow of water up there at the top of each post, and have it nft in the meantime until the next spray.
> 
> what do you think fatman, too much? should i just spray and let the roots dry and then spray again in 5 min?
> 
> ...


 hey SB, wot strain u got vegging? wot have u got them in? have u sexed yet? how old are they?.. SL


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## streetlegal (Dec 24, 2009)

*Fatman *what do u think of this system as plug and play, any good? http://www.urbangardenershop.com.au/...2/default.asp0 
ur ignoring me?.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 24, 2009)

The main thing with your watering is to always maintainn at most no more than a very thin film of water o your roots. They root mass should never receive so much water as to have a build up of water at the up hill side of the root mass (ponding). Netting will only allow as much addition depth as the thickness of the netting Basically you want everthing to remain wet but you want to come as close as possible to eliminate all standing water (not rapidle moving water) and limit te rapidly moving water to a thin layer 1/10 inch deep, plus any netting thickness.

No the pump is defintely not submersible. If a miser is spraying a stream rather than a mist it is trash. Hang the misters or even using them side ways or upside down is all fine.

If your talking about disconnecting 3/4" pipe, I just use standard plumbing unions. The pressure is low enough simple hand tightening is enough to prevent leakage. Unions are quite cheap. http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVCUnionsUnrated Thes compression couplings work real well also: http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?cart_id=5171999.32004*5f0FP8&product=PVC-Compression-Couples They are also just hand tightened.


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## sherriberry (Dec 26, 2009)

so im thinking about doing polyester on the bottoms... any better advice?

the silk screen strikes me as too thin to serve much purpose.. thoughts?


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## fatman7574 (Dec 26, 2009)

streetlegal said:


> *Fatman *what do u think of this system as plug and play, any good? http://www.urbangardenershop.com.au/...2/default.asp0
> ur ignoring me?.


At my end that link opens to a home page with several columns of items listed. I have no idea what it is I am supposed to look at.

Sorry.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 26, 2009)

The silk screen just breaks the "seal" so to speak between the roots and the trough allowing water to more readily flow under the roots rather than just between and around them. It becomes double thin filnm ystem. One thin film pplied from the top and one from the bottom. It just would mean you would have a thin film the thickness of the silk screen readily and freely flowing under the root mass. A some what thicker poyester layer would be better but more expensive. A thick layer of polyester would not work any better than a relatively thin layer as there is still the problem that oxygen diffuses poorly. Regardless of waht is used anything over about 1/10 and inch will provide no more DO to the roots, it would just be more a matter of cost and availability and the ablity to clean and reuse.


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## repvip (Dec 26, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> so im thinking about doing polyester on the bottoms... any better advice?
> 
> the silk screen strikes me as too thin to serve much purpose.. thoughts?


Home improvement stores have a fabric type of wrap for trees.. 
http://www.bestnest.com/bestnest/RTProduct.asp?SKU=MGC-821&src=froogle&kw=MGC-821
usually in the outdoor section. It's nice because it's 4" wide so no need to cut really...

It's really thin. Soon as I can find something that is 1/4" I will switch to that. Will probably use lava rock or something, then cover with this wrap or silk screen.. which I think will be perfect  but to each his own!

You may not even need a spreader mat, since you have sprayers which will get everywhere. Still, everyone agrees roots more suspended in air are better.

Keep us updated on whatever solenoid type solution you come up with!


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## sherriberry (Dec 26, 2009)

well how bout this...

i got some polyester that tot he naked eye looks as thin as silk.

but it is way more durable.

its a super fine white cloth that you can see through almost but not really.

should stand the test of time, isnt polyester synthetic, so it shouldnt break down?

i chose white so i could look for stains or filth.

i got it at a fabric store... 6 ft x 5, for about 8 bucks.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 26, 2009)

I have a freiend that flies owns and hot air baloons. Their bag (ballon is entirekly poyester. even with all the heat and the wateher the rolling up band bagging etc they still last about 10 years each. Some people think roots have to sit up a measurable distance an bove the bottom.. thai is not needed. the netting basically keeps the roots from sticking in a lamost suction like manner to the bottom. They water can actually get under the entire netting and between the netting and the roots. Then the O2 in the water layer has a large surface area in contact with all the bottom layeror so it can dissuse better Otherwise it has to very slowly try to get between little so paces between the root as the roots literally adhere to the bottom plastic. So it is basically a double NTF system. Top film and a bottom film.


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## sherriberry (Dec 27, 2009)

wanted to ask your opinion fatman..

if a person hung a bunch of hps lights in a BIG flowering room, and had them all hanging vertical, and in cool tubes...

which do you think would be the better way to go, 600's or 1000's

ive heard both ways.

i think it makes more sense to use 2 600's instead of 1 1000, but... ive heard the 1000's make the bud much denser.

maybe with all those 600's, it would still be dense?

i can go either way, just trying to plan ahead now.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 27, 2009)

PersonallY I prefer many smaller over a few larger. The lighting will be moreeven in intensity for more of the plants with smaller lights. Plus unless your water cooling you still will need to maintain a greater distance between the plants and the lights if they receive to much light growth nearly entirely shuts down. The only advantage to the larger wattage is lower initial capiatal investment and the possibility of more intensity to reach deeper for growing taller plants. But that means water cooling to get the 1000 watt lights closed enough to use that extra intensity. It required water cooling usually to get a 1000 watt bulb as close to the plants as you can get the 600 wattt lights with air cooling. Water is much more efficient at collecting and transporting thermal energy than air. Vertical or horizontally hung the intensity issues are the same as are heat issues and plants distances. PAR drops off at the same rates horizontally or vertically from the bulbs.


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## tea tree (Dec 27, 2009)

if you can swing the 1000s dude I just have to say that it that would be your most promising method of getting dense buds. Between the trees vertical sure yeilds a lot in a lot of grow ops around the net. I dont grow that way yet but I would like too. If you here 600s would do it for vert trees, then there is some evidence. People who use 1000s all get more dense buds. That is all I need to hear.  Also verts without hoods are not so hard to cool as people think. I tried mine bare bulb and I have shit at how easy my 8 in fan yanks all the heat out of my 4x4x6 foot tent. Vert for flower is a long held to be nice scheme.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 28, 2009)

tea tree said:


> if you can swing the 1000s dude I just have to say that it that would be your most promising method of getting dense buds. Between the trees vertical sure yeilds a lot in a lot of grow ops around the net. I dont grow that way yet but I would like too. If you here 600s would do it for vert trees, then there is some evidence. People who use 1000s all get more dense buds. That is all I need to hear.  Also verts without hoods are not so hard to cool as people think. I tried mine bare bulb and I have shit at how easy my 8 in fan yanks all the heat out of my 4x4x6 foot tent. Vert for flower is a long held to be nice scheme.


It does not matter what wattage the bulbs aree it matter the PAR deliver at the site being lit. Learn a bit be for you talk trash. Ten 400 watt lights hung vertically in an 8 foot square room will provide more even PAR through out the room, higher yield and nearly all tight buds. Four 1000 watt bulbs hung vertically in the same sized room will provide very, very uneven PAR, a lower over all yield and a much smaller percentage of tight buds. Get a quantum meters and run some test grows and learn how wrong your present opinion is.


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## sherriberry (Dec 28, 2009)

k, so i got it all hooked up tonight for pressure and flow testing...

and... not much pressure or flow 

i have a couple leaks in the pvc... that im going to cement shut tomorrow... so maybe thats it?

but, if not, then the only other leaks could be around the sprayers and the pvc itself...

im running the pump you suggested, and running 25 sprayers with it.

right now there is just a small stream coming out of each one... not really a mist so much.

other possibility is that i did not prime the pump properly?

im going to check a few things tomorrow... otherwise i might end up using the black or white hose and the barbed sprayers...


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## fatman7574 (Dec 28, 2009)

If you can drop down to using half the sprayers and see what happens. Leaks make a huge difference as they mean reduced pressure throught out the system. I have had a few pumps that have not put out the pressure they should. I have also had pumps that did not perform well if they had too few sprayers. The pumpsa re made to operate aginst resistance. If they do not have the resistance the out let pressure is poor. If nothing else you would get one hell of a good spray from the standard sprayers in comparison th the low pressure pumps, but the volume will be excessive with the standard sprayers. Without putting a pressure gauge temporarily on the manifold line it is pretty hard to second guess what is going on though. Did you buy the 0.75 or the 1.0 gph misters?


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## sherriberry (Dec 28, 2009)

1 gal per hour, threaded

ill mess with it tomorrow some more... the way i had the feed line to the pump... wasnt the best... it was a temporary rubber hose before i can make it back to lowes to buy some more fittings...

anyway.. i think its possible the pump has SOME air in it... or the feed line... 

the leaks are also a must fix anyway... so we will see.


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## sherriberry (Dec 28, 2009)

if i end up using the rubber hose isntead...

you think the threaded ones can be salvaged for the job?

im wondering if my pvc cement wouldnt keep them secure in the hose without the barbs


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## repvip (Dec 28, 2009)

Is it better to have a larger manifold, with smaller diameter pipes running from that? I'm anticipating running into the same problem sherri were you still using 3/4" pvc?

What diameter pvc would you run fatman? cpvc is attractive because you can get down to 1/4" and 3/8" OD. I haven't been able to connect them without leaks yet, but John Guest fittings should solve that (expensive, but the special crimping tool itself is an arm and a leg anyway).


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## sherriberry (Dec 28, 2009)

also... where do i get a "manifold"?

ive seen some brass ones on ebay, but i have no clue if they are the right size fittings?

also, how do you kill spider mites?

ive looked for neam oil all over, and cant find it anywhere... and using other shit that says it kills them... but here we are and i still have a mild case of them.


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## sherriberry (Dec 28, 2009)

im running a 3/4 inch pvc for all the main plumbing, and then T'ing off at each post, and each post has a 1/2 pvc pipe inside it that dead ends at the top of the post... 

each of these 1/2 pvc's have 5 sprayers each.

i have 5 posts.

25 total sprayers.

posts are connected by main 3/4 inch pvc line.


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## sherriberry (Dec 28, 2009)

my vegged plants are huge, and still in 18/6 light

they are smothering eachother in my nft table.. they are all past 2 ft tall, and my setup, i cant raise my light anymore, and they are up against the glass of my coolsun  plants are probably 6 or more weeks old

then ive got 100 more clones that are about a foot tall now... which should have been in the table over a week ago... but they are still in tubs. plants are probably 4 or more weeks old.

i need a flower room


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## repvip (Dec 28, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> also... where do i get a "manifold"?
> 
> ive seen some brass ones on ebay, but i have no clue if they are the right size fittings?
> 
> ...


ick sorry. fatman will probably beat me with a better answer  the manifold I was referring to was homemade from the pump, then feeding the sprayer lines. I'm not good with visualising flow rates and how it divides up... 

spider mites are a bitch, but only because the eggs aren't killed like the adults, then they hatch in 5 days.. so you need to treat once, then again in 5 days. Do that at least twice, three times if it's really bad or you feel it's necessary.

Neam oil is ok stuff. Home improvement stores have the bactericidal/insecticidal soap, and other "spectracide" type products for plant pests, they may even have an organic one. Find one that kills spider mites. I have had good luck following the package directions, mixing up a 5 gal bucket, and a second bucket as a plaint water rinse. If you had the neem oil, you would mix some of that with some antibacterial soap in a sprayer. You can make a bucket solution for a dip too, but the pressure sprayer will knock off most adult mites. Then you can dip in the insecticide solution, and give her a rinse. If the plants are big, you can omit the rinse. Smaller plants and clones--definitely give a rinse.

Hopefully your roots aren't grown together.. can easily pluck a plant out, spray it off into a garbage, dip it and go. If you can't do the easy dip method you will be stuck using a sprayer and making a huge mess.

As you know, mites like to live on the underside of leaves. You might call it excessive, but wherever I have seen a mite (when I have had them before, with dirt) I cut off the whole leaf. Fuck it. It's a challenge just to get rid of these bastards.. I don't want any eggs hanging around. 

They also have foggers and chemical sprays that you can get. BTW my cat was the culprit one time--spreaded mites like wildfire pretty randomly--was so pissed.


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## sherriberry (Dec 29, 2009)

tomorrow i am going to glue or cement the sprayers into the pvc pipe...

i have pvc cement, which is this yellowish green shit... but it dries very thin...

so, im looking for another option...

superglue? 

if anyone has any ideas on a thicker drying glue that would fill in any leak gaps... let me know


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## fatman7574 (Dec 30, 2009)

As they are two different types of plastics thermal glues really would not work well. A thermal glue actually melts the plastics and they are supposed to mix and become one. However they are entirely different types of plastic so they do not mix. An epoxy glue would work better.

For the mites buy some Buhach powder. http://www.buhach.com/ It is sold online http://www.solutions.com/jump.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&itemID=314 and is also sold in sporting goods stores and outdoor and garden centers. It is burnt as a smudge. There are no flames, it just smolders. It's active ingrediants are Pyrethrins. Mixed esters of (+)-trans-chrysanthemic acid and (+)-pyrethroic acid. i.e. a specific type of Chrysanthemum flowers petals ground up. A teaspoon or so is simply placed in/on a non flamable surface like an empty tuna fish can and lit with a match. Seal the room. Do this every few days until no mites return. It can be used up until harvest. It is non harmful to people and is used in a lot in any places for mosquito control. It is considered a must have for life in Alaska.


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## repvip (Dec 30, 2009)

Wanted to post a quick follow-up about some earlier posts I made in this thread concerning continuous NFT versus intermittent (both without sprayers) and Aero/NFT I was testing each method, somewhat, with similar units made from fence posts. Don't want anyone getting led astray.

As expected, the unit with sprayers, Aero/NFT, is working the best. That unit is under LEDs at the moment and just under 2 weeks. 

I was surprised about continuous NFT versus intermittent. The continuous is properly set up with a thin film, very small water pump, roots look good considering. This unit is the middle one. Under the metal halide. This one is just under 4 weeks.

The intermittent NFT without sprayers is far left under the HPS and is working least well out of all 3. Roots don't look very nice. However, buds look great. This one is just over 6 weeks. 

Take home message: Sprayers! They are as easy or easier than traditional NFT and work better. 

Next experiment: medium pressure misters/foggers using demand/delivery water pumps.


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## repvip (Dec 30, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> As they are two different types of plastics thermal glues really would not work well. A thermal glue actually melts the plastics and they are supposed to mix and become one. However they are entirely different types of plastic so they do not mix. An epoxy glue would work better.
> 
> For the mites buy some Buhach powder. http://www.buhach.com/ It is sold online http://www.solutions.com/jump.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&itemID=314 and is also sold in sporting goods stores and outdoor and garden centers. It is burnt as a smudge. There are no flames, it just smolders. It's active ingrediants are Pyrethrins. Mixed esters of (+)-trans-chrysanthemic acid and (+)-pyrethroic acid. i.e. a specific type of Chrysanthemum flowers petals ground up. A teaspoon or so is simply placed in/on a non flamable surface like an empty tuna fish can and lit with a match. Seal the room. Do this every few days until no mites return. It can be used up until harvest. It is non harmful to people and is used in a lot in any places for mosquito control. It is considered a must have for life in Alaska.


 
Geez! Can't believe I haven't heard of this before. I've never seen it in the home improvement stores around here... Spider mites are a thing of the past, now, but every spring those dang ants  this will be a lot easier to apply in my situation. Or.. every situation probably. Thanks fatman.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 30, 2009)

The pressure bias pump needs to be working against head pressure to develp pressure. The easiest way to see that there is that g head pressure is to use small tubing before every nozzle. Consider the genral formula: Flow = velocity * Area. so Velocity = Flow / area, by decraesing the area (diameter of the pipe/tubes interior) you thereby increase the velocity and therefore the pressure. If your manifold is a larger pipe (increses area) the velocity (therefore pressure) will be lower. With just 25 spray heads you only need to flow at most 25 gph from a 270 gph pump. So you need to decrease the tubing/pipe isze to incrase velocity rather than sure maximium flow. The pump comes with a 3/4" discharge so as to pump up to 270 gph. That means a pipe/tubing area of 0.442 square inches to move 270 gallons per hour as you need to only move roughly one tenth of that amount of water you theoretically need a pipe/tubing of only o.24 inches interior diameter to handle the entire flow. By using a large pipe with the sprayers stuck straight into the pipe you haveb created a high flow low velocity/pressure system. This means the pressure is to low for the sprayers. Using the lengths of small tubing increases the velocity/pressure at the spray heads. It also decreases flow but you need very little flow. I use a simple 0 to 30 psi pressure gage on all my systems to see that the pressure is just below the pumps max of 24 psi. http://cgi.ebay.com/SMALL-PRESSURE-air-GAUGE-GAGE-0-30-psi-NEW_W0QQitemZ400092389413QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPneumatic_Hydraulic_Valves_Parts?hash=item5d275d6025


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## repvip (Dec 30, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> The pressure bias pump needs to be working against head pressure to develp pressure. The easiest way to see that there is that g head pressure is to use small tubing before every nozzle. Consider the genral formula: Flow = velocity * Area. so Velocity = Flow / area, by decraesing the area (diameter of the pipe/tubes interior) you thereby increase the velocity and therefore the pressure. If your manifold is a larger pipe (increses area) the velocity (therefore pressure) will be lower. With just 25 spray heads you only need to flow at most 25 gph from a 270 gph pump. So you need to decrease the tubing/pipe isze to incrase velocity rather than sure maximium flow. The pump comes with a 3/4" discharge so as to pump up to 270 gph. That means a pipe/tubing area of 0.442 square inches to move 270 gallons per hour as you need to only move roughly one tenth of that amount of water you theoretically need a pipe/tubing of only o.24 inches interior diameter to handle the entire flow. By using a large pipe with the sprayers stuck straight into the pipe you haveb created a high flow low velocity/pressure system. This means the pressure is to low for the sprayers. Using the lengths of small tubing increases the velocity/pressure at the spray heads. It also decreases flow but you need very little flow. I use a simple 0 to 30 psi pressure gage on all my systems to see that the pressure is just below the pumps max of 24 psi.


Thanks very informative.

So.. to get the best head pressure.

With the 25 sprayer example, you are saying 25 individual spray lines at 1/4" would be best, as that is the smallest tubing ensuring highest velocity? Just use a small piece of 3/4" pvc with 25 lines tapped in?, or probably tap T joints and get 2 lines each, but same concept I think.

What about 5 spray lines using 3/8" outer diameter tubing with 5 sprayers each, coming off the 3/4" outlet/manifold. It's a bigger diameter pipe, but there would be less distance...

I guess I'm still thinking in terms of high flow/low pressure pumps. 
With high pressure pumps, that can build pressure against enough sprayers (like you said, only need 25gph flow!), I can't see why either situation wouldn't work, and most mist systems are the latter, but if there is a best solution, by all means lay it on me! 

Anyway

Gravity feed paint sprayers are only like $20. Air compressors are cheap. Can't you atomize the solution fairly easy using compressed air? Or is this the basis of high pressure aeroponics? It seems like it might be easier, using compressed air to atomize water, rather than pressurizing the water itself. Shit, the more I learn the less I know


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## repvip (Dec 30, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> For the mites buy some Buhach powder. http://www.buhach.com/ It is sold online http://www.solutions.com/jump.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&itemID=314 and is also sold in sporting goods stores and outdoor and garden centers. It is burnt as a smudge. There are no flames, it just smolders. It's active ingrediants are Pyrethrins. Mixed esters of (+)-trans-chrysanthemic acid and (+)-pyrethroic acid. i.e. a specific type of Chrysanthemum flowers petals ground up. A teaspoon or so is simply placed in/on a non flamable surface like an empty tuna fish can and lit with a match. Seal the room. Do this every few days until no mites return. It can be used up until harvest. It is non harmful to people and is used in a lot in any places for mosquito control. It is considered a must have for life in Alaska.


Hey is there any worry of this being absorbed into the reservoirs and damaging plants or messing pH? The venturi valves could suck the fumes right in.. actually heard a story of a guy who messed up his plants in a similar way with a sulfur burner, but it was air pumps that pumped it into his reservoirs...


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## fatman7574 (Dec 30, 2009)

repvip said:


> Thanks very informative.
> 
> So.. to get the best head pressure.
> 
> ...


With lrage pie the pressure is low. There is no height creating resistance so the pump is not going to build up pressure as the sprayers ibeing directly in the large pipe will mean to little rsesiatan asthey let off pressure. However if you use the lengths of small tubing before each sprayer the pressure will already be high due to the pump trying to flow the same an ount of water through the smaller tubing. The only way it can dio this is to pump at a higher velocity/pressure. Look at it this awy: The pump wants to pump the same amount of water regardless of the tubing size. It tries to do this my pumping the water faster through the smaller tubing than it would have to pump it tht rough the larger tubing. With the waters volume flowing through the large pie thr pressure/velocity is low. That means the vlocit/pressure at the spray heads directly in the large pipe is low. That means the sprayers just leak off a small amount of water so the pressure/velocity remains low. With the small diameter tubing pieces running from the main manifold to the sparayers the velocity/prsessure in the tubes is higher so the sprayers pray more water. As the restriction of the small tubing keeps the velocity/pressure high the pumps does pump less water but a high volume is not needed but a high pressure is needed. If you used small tubing for the full length there would be a great variance between the amount sprayed from each tubing. 
The approximate length of the the small tubing should be at least 10 times the interior diameter of the manifold pipe. So if it is 3/4" pipe the small tubing should be a minimum of 7.5 inches long.

Air atomix zers are based upon the air being used to create fine droplets of water rather than using high pressure water forced though a small hole. As this can be done with low pressure air it is chaper to run. However the initial investment is usually higher as the nozzles are more expensive and beacuse of reasons of stealth people use indor compressors maening slent compressors. These reatil are 5 to 10 times the cost of a high pressure diaphragm pump used for high pressure aero. The nozzles for the air atomized system with the dapters star at about $40 on eBay or $80 from a retailer, versus $1 for a high pressure Aero sparyer. However there are at least a dozen sizes of air atomizer nozzles avaialble and each ones output volume can be adjusted both through rasing or lower u your reservoir height (head pressure) or adjtsinfg you air pressure. They can also be siphon fed rather than gravity fed. ecah has there own advanatages and disadvantages. The compressures can be readily built by any fair DIY person as the most commonly sold/used ones are really no more than an air condioner compressor with a sight glass to keep an eye on the oil level and a tapped hole with a plug used to add oil. 

Basically cut the top of the compressor cover off with a abrasive cut off disk (even a Dremel tool will work), drill two holes and weld on the ring which holds the sight glass lense and weld on the treaded ring for the filler plug. Then weld the top back on. The air conditioner can be bought from sears for $100. Just throw away everything but the compressor. The pressure switch cab be bought on eaby for aboyt $20. The tank can simply be a propane tank purcahes empty. So about $200 for a $600 plus cheap version without the sight glass or oil plug (not advized). A quality retail one (Jun-Air) with the site glass etc will run twice that amount plus shipping.


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## fatman7574 (Dec 30, 2009)

repvip said:


> Hey is there any worry of this being absorbed into the reservoirs and damaging plants or messing pH? The venturi valves could suck the fumes right in.. actually heard a story of a guy who messed up his plants in a similar way with a sulfur burner, but it was air pumps that pumped it into his reservoirs...


Smoke from ground up Chrysanthemum flower petals? I highly doubt there would be any problems. I have been using Buhach for over 30 years both in my grow rooms and in my homes. At most the only harm would be a extremely small chance of a slight lowering ofyour nutrie pH as all natural esters are acidic. I dusted it directly on to outdoor plants for years without harm. I don't recommend that anyone buy and use the synthesized Pyrethrin spray on garden version. Especially not during the last few weks of budding. It is nasty tasting *hit.


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## streetlegal (Dec 30, 2009)

repvip said:


> Hey is there any worry of this being absorbed into the reservoirs and damaging plants or messing pH? The venturi valves could suck the fumes right in.. actually heard a story of a guy who messed up his plants in a similar way with a sulfur burner, but it was air pumps that pumped it into his reservoirs...


 RV sup.. u improved on 8 ozcars yet?


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## repvip (Dec 30, 2009)

streetlegal said:


> RV sup.. u improved on 8 ozcars yet?


Nope. It hasn't been long enough..

Thanks again fatman, for answering those questions. You are like macguyver building all sorts of things out of AC units  Experience is the key! You remind me of Uncle Ben.


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## sherriberry (Dec 30, 2009)

fatman... i understand what you are saying about pipe size... however, ive grown up around large pnumatic systems since i was a child, and i have to disagree on this...

the only area of interest is the area of the sprayer orfice.

if the pipe was smaller, and restricted flow to the sprayer... that would be one thing...

however...

it does not matter if you have 

a 30psi pump
a 3 inch diamerter pipe
and 1 sprayer attached to that pipe

or

a 30 psi pump
a .25 diamerter pipe
and one sprayer attached to that pipe

in both scenarios, the chamber or "pipe" will rise to 30 psi (dictated by the pumps max pressure it can create)

obviously, in both scenarios, the gph of the sprayer is far less than the gph of the pump.. so the system will reach the pumps max psi (of 30 in this case)

both sprayers, in both setups... will each feel the same psi, and thus, flow the same.

if my pipes were too small... that would be one thing... but they arent.

i see no benefit to shrinking the diameter of my pipes.

it would increase the velocity of the flow of nutes inside the pipe, but thats because its a thinner channle that the nutes have to flow through...

but in both scenarios, the psi would be the same at the sprayer head regardless.

only way the psi will drop off is if the pipes are too narrow, and thus restrict flow due to friction tot he sprayer orfice, and thuse reduce pressure felt by the sprayer head.

regardless....

the leaks around my sprayers is the current problem im very sure...

so as far as epoxies go... any ideas?

i hate mixing epoxy


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## sherriberry (Dec 30, 2009)

in labans terms...

making a narrower pipe DOES raise pressure IF there is no restrictive orfice at the end of it (sprayer)

it raises pressure because it restricts flow due to friction (but in our case, we already are restricting flow with the sprayer orfice, so its a mute point)

if we restricted flow BEYOND what the sprayer orfice does via a thinner pipe, i would raise the psi in the pipe, however you would have a psi drop off the further the fluid flows down that restrictive pipe... thus the psi would always be lower at the sprayer head with the restrictive pipe than with the non restrictive pipe

it creates a loss of pressure over distance by using a smaller restrictive pipe.

you cant have too big of a pipe... the pipe is no longer a pipe... it is a chamber due to the fact that it has no exists other than the sprayers.

if the pipe had an open exit the size of the pipes diameter....

...FATMANT IS EXACTLY CORRECT, one would need to restrict the pipes diameter or this exit hole size...

in our systems, we dont have an exit.

pressure is dictated by sprayer orfice size x number of sprayers.

as long as the pump is rated to 240gph, and we dont use more than 240 sprayers,a nd our system has no leaks...

then the system AND ALL THE SPRAYERS will feel 30 psi, if thats what the pump is rated at at 240gph.

make sense?


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## repvip (Dec 30, 2009)

sherri I think this is where different pump types determine the system pressure

i.e. low pressure/high flow pumps will work best with smaller diameter pipes of a large manifold, to get that nice difference in head pressure.

However, like you said, and I alluded to earlier.. a medium pressure pump shouldn't really matter as it will be capable of pressurizing the system (assuming it's not excessively long like 1000' or wtfever) regardless.

It's just the weak pumps that can't maintain pressure.

Have you thought about purple pvc primer and regular PVC cement?


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## fatman7574 (Dec 30, 2009)

It is a mag drive pump with a volute (impeller chamber) specifically designed for pumping against a high staic head pressure. With a large pipe likely just a few feet above the pump there is no high pressure developed due to static head. Therefore there needs to be friction head other than just the orifce created friction as that resistantance drop as soon as water strarts going through the orifice so the pumps drops its velocity and pressure. The small tubing resistance remains even when water is flowing making the pump work against a constant friction therefore pumping at a higher velocity as designed. Mag pumps behave differently than a shaft pump. Pressure bias pumps are different than flow bias pumps. For an example with a mag pump if the resistance is too high then the magnet stops turning and the pump motor continues to run. A shaft driven pump would continue to build pressure until it over heats and the motor shuts down. The Iwaki is a mag drive pump. Yes fixing the leaks will help, but it will likely not fix the problem. Mag drive and shaft drive pumps are just not the same. The pressure in a pipe in lengths we are working with increases with a smaller diamter as the velocity increases. The volume of flow decreases not the pressure. With long runs yes the accumalative friction of the smaller pipe would change everything but that is not an issue heare really. The simple Formula Flow = Velocity * Area is sufficient. Your jumping ahead all the way to Bernoulli's principle. Put your thumb part way over the end of a graden hose. The water volume tries to stay the same coming out of the hose. If it stays the same then it is because the velocity has increased. We aree however working with a magnet and a motor which does ano lways deliver a set volume so Bernollis principle does not really apply unless you want to continously adjust the velocity in the equation as motor speed and the manets grasp changes along with volute factors.


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## sherriberry (Dec 30, 2009)

i disagree fatman... 

but im not worried if we never agree on this topic because i know you have a ton of other knowledge to offer, so im not going to split hairs over it...

but the entire system... is at 30psi.

IF the entire system was not at 30psi...

say if there was a large hole somewhere...

THEN to get the psi high at each sprayer site, THEN the pipes where the sprayers are connected would need to be of thin diameter.

but if you think that the entire system is not at 30psi already, you are mistaken.

you could hook one of these pumps up to a tank the size of a house...

it would take it a long time...

but eventually the tank the size of the house would become pressurized to 30 psi... as long as the pump is kept on.

volume of the chamber dictates how long it takes to pressurize the chamber.

a chamber the size of a house would take about a day to pressurize... but, it would become 30 psi...

and if you plugged a sprayer into that... it would spray the same as a sparyer hooked into the pipe of the diameter you are talking about.

chamers... are dead ends.

pipes, are pathways... and when the pathway has an open outlet and is not a closed chamber system.. you are entirely correct.

but, im beyond positive of this concept... and if you want to set up a test, or put a wager on it, ill make it worth my while to set up a test...

then we can do it...

but im sorry, in this instance im 100% positive your thinner hose will not increase psi.... the psi is already at the pumps max psi... whatever it is... because the chamber is CLOSED, and not an open system... the only escape is the orfices...

pipe diameter and size is irrelivant.

im positive.

dont post again unless its your paypal account and how much money you wnat to bet


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## repvip (Dec 30, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> i disagree fatman...
> 
> but, im beyond positive of this concept... and if you want to set up a test, or put a wager on it, ill make it worth my while to set up a test...
> 
> ...


 Lets just use your setup as a test. I think you are wrong. You are already having pressure problems. You really think fixing those leaks will solve your low pressure problems?


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## sherriberry (Dec 30, 2009)

there is no pressure issue out of the sprayers once i fixed the pvc leaks...

but...

the water is spraying out HARD around the sprayers.. and through them...

so, the leak is a problem only because its going to flood one post more than the others...

as far as certain sprayers not spraying, it was because they were clogged, but i got that taken care of.

so, i got done gluing all the sprayers into the pvc, and come tomorrow once its 100% dry, i will test again, and i think i shouldnt have anymore problems.


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## streetlegal (Dec 30, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> there is no pressure issue out of the sprayers once i fixed the pvc leaks...
> 
> but...
> 
> ...


All this bullshit that ur putting urself through isnt for any real gain.. A zero veg clone plant in any well designed system will always yield about the same give or take a few grams.
Aero/nft low pressure high volume works just as well, its proven. Cut to size, drill some holes some glue, sprayers bam, done in an hour..
This isnt a negative comment as i know building and desiging is fun and an enjoyable part of growing.


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## sherriberry (Dec 30, 2009)

what im putting myself through is not any harder than using the sprayers you are used to... i used them as well...

these sprayers just need a tad of glue added before one puts them in the pipe... big deal...

everything else is the same...

infact, its easier because i only need on pump for up to 100+ sprayers...

and the ez clone sprayers allow too much flow to go by, so the system loses pressure and flow to the furthest sprayers... meaning one would have to add another pump.

im looking forward to getting the hang of this... its identical to the stinkbud setup... just different sprayers, and a different pump... and a lot more posts


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## sherriberry (Dec 30, 2009)

fatman...

that buhach powder...

does one have to have a flame UNDER that tuna can?

or can one just pour it in the can, and light it from the top, and then forget about it?

how often and how much do you use?

thanks bro


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## repvip (Dec 30, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> there is no pressure issue out of the sprayers once i fixed the pvc leaks...
> 
> but...
> 
> ...


That is so great! Fuck physics I don't care anymore. It's all about the pump. I haven't had a low pressure pump (5-6psi or whatever) able to maintain even that low amount of pressure over ~25ft of 1/2"pvc with only 20 sprayers, assuming 25gph each that's only 400gph, and I was using a ~1050gph pump before I just gave up. So I'm really glad to hear that. 



streetlegal said:


> All this bullshit that ur putting urself through isnt for any real gain.. A zero veg clone plant in any well designed system will always yield about the same give or take a few grams.
> Aero/nft low pressure high volume works just as well, its proven. Cut to size, drill some holes some glue, sprayers bam, done in an hour..
> This isnt a negative comment as i know building and desiging is fun and an enjoyable part of growing.


I disagree Every little improvement helps. I think this will make a big difference. Have you seen a true HP rootball? I've never seen anything like it. And I only want half that


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## streetlegal (Dec 30, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> what im putting myself through is not any harder than using the sprayers you are used to... i used them as well...
> 
> these sprayers just need a tad of glue added before one puts them in the pipe... big deal...
> 
> ...


 cool man.



> I disagree Every little improvement helps. I think this will make a big difference. Have you seen a true HP rootball? I've never seen anything like it. And I only want half that


Your a root man RV..I like some root myself.. (although u cant achieve the pom pom root in channels) Like i said i dont think there would be any difference in a well set-up SOG under the same lights etc, ur looking at about a 1oz per plant average..but if u can improve that by grams even, that will make a difference over time no doubt.. I have no problems eating my words if it comes to it tho RV  im kinda hungry too, its lunchtime over here


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## repvip (Dec 30, 2009)

streetlegal said:


> Your a root man RV..I like some root myself.. (although u cant achieve the pom pom root in channels) Like i said i dont think there would be any difference in a well set-up SOG under the same lights etc, ur looking at about a 1oz per plant average..but if u can improve that by grams even, that will make a difference over time no doubt.. I have no problems eating my words if it comes to it tho RV  im kinda hungry too, its lunchtime over here


Bro, if I was getting 1oz/plant, I'd be getting 2.5lbs every 2 weeks! Instead, I'm averaging 1/4oz/plant. Real world sucks  

It's easy to say, a properly built system should work great. I must be doing things horribly wrong! I thought my systems were properly built... Hah, anyway, I will take any improvement I can get!


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## streetlegal (Dec 30, 2009)

repvip said:


> Bro, if I was getting 1oz/plant, I'd be getting 2.5lbs every 2 weeks! Instead, I'm averaging 1/4oz/plant. Real world sucks
> 
> It's easy to say, a properly built system should work great. I must be doing things horribly wrong! I thought my systems were properly built... Hah, anyway, I will take any improvement I can get!


Well ive averaged round half oz per plant SOG in the real world, some plants more, without co2 (i got co2 coming btw, harvestmaster easi and reg, got a bargain) 
Ill start by saying im a fan of ur grow and a fan of urs RV, i think ur a smart dude but i do think something is amiss with ur grow to not be achieving weight.. im far from an expert RV so its just my opinion but i think LIGHTS and secondly genetics are cruelling ur grow..


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## fatman7574 (Dec 30, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> fatman...
> 
> that buhach powder...
> 
> ...


Light the powder with a match. It is best to also put the can on top of something that can take the heat, like a second can placed up side down. I once put the powder in a glass ash tray and lit it. About 10 minutes later...pop...the ashtray was in many pieces. It just looks like it is bearly smoldering, but under the ash that forms it is red hot. As a preventaive about once per week. If there is an insect infestation about four or five times once every two to three days. It kills and repels live insects but not their eggs.


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## sherriberry (Dec 31, 2009)

if its not one thing, its another....

added the 20 micron filter cartridge today...

it leaks around the canister..

so i gotta go get some waterproofing tape or goop to seal the threads on it...

hooked up the posts...

top sprayer on all posts but one closest to the pump... dont spray.

so there is not enough flow to feed all the sprayers because the top ones of 4 out of 5 dont spray.

the leaking in the canister was pretty substantial...

so there goes some of my flow...

and i think theres a few sprayers that probably still leak around the edges...

answer me this fatman...

how often do these damn sprayers clog up once i get them going... because if they do...

im going to abort my current setup, and either run the 3/8 hose external of the posts... that way i can get to each sprayer easily...

or im just going to go back to the ez clone sprayers because this is way too much trouble shooting vs reward.


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## sherriberry (Dec 31, 2009)

pulled the filter from the equation...

top sprayers at each post still dont work

going to lowes to try and find some 3/8 hose... or whatver seems to fit these sprayers.

very bummed...


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## sherriberry (Dec 31, 2009)

i know what the problem is, and im too lazy to solve it... but on my next setup i know how to...

problem is the pump has a peak psi it can push... so lets say its 30psi.

then each T off, i have a pipe with 5 sprayers on it.

first sprayer sprays the best, 4th not so hot, 5th not at all.

what is happening is just upstream of the first sprayer, the pipe is at 30psi... because it has no leaks between there and the pump.

then, after the first sprayer, there is a pressure drop.. might be 2 psi, whatever, but that first sprayer is a leak.

then, after the second sprayer, another pressure drop.

and since the pipe is a dead end, the pump cant pressurize the top of the post because its already doing all it can do... 30 psi...

but by the top of the pipe, it might only be 20 psi, or whatever is not enough to power a sprayer.

the solution is the tops of the fence post... need another feed pipe...

so what one would have to do is have T's on both ends of the fence post, and 2 feeder pipes that both merge and go back to the pump... that would solve it.

anyway... ive got to get my plants into bloom, so chances are, im going to leave it the way it is, and leave the top site empty in each post, and just run 4 plants a post.

in the meantime, im still going to lowes, still getting the sealant to fix the filter, and still going to check into the 3/8 tubing.

with the risk of these things clogging... im starting to have a hard time justifying using them over the ez clone sprayers...

but i will give it a shot and just see how this goes, and in the meantime build a backup setup using the 3/8 tubing that i can impliment with the drilling of a few holes in the post.


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## sherriberry (Dec 31, 2009)

the other solution... and i know fatman is going to LOVE this one...

is the pipe that goes up the post needs to be larger diameter.

essentially... this pipe that goes up the post is a manifold...

and we all know that the invention of a manifold was to replace a pipe which is too thin, and thus cant supply enough flow without too high of friction...

all manifolds are AT LEAST the area of all the smaller pipes that come off it, combined.

in this case, the 1/2 pipe is not enough area to allow the entire pipe to pressurize because there is too much friction and bottlenecking at the bottom, thus creating a pressure drop over the length of the pipe by the time it gets to the top, after its gone by 4 other sprayers.

id bet money that if i swapped out 1 of the pipes with a 3/4 inch pipe, then all sprayers would spray... because id be increasing the diameter of my manifold.

the stem of the sprayer is the shoot that comes off the manifold, and finally the orfice... this is what keeps the pressure high at 30 psi even tho its a low volume pump.... because they allow even LOWER volume to exit the system., this the pressure climbs.

the key is, we want the 30 psi to be uniform across the system... isntead of pressure drops.

this is cured with larger diameter piping...

think of it like a traffic jam... right now we have one, and cars arent getting where they need to be on time...

we need a wider road.


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## sherriberry (Dec 31, 2009)

got my plants transplanted, and they are not very happy looking at the moment.

my roots were very tangled, it was a chore to get them appart, but i think i did a pretty good job.

anyway...

they are in the posts, and i have the sprayers on for about 2 min, and off for about 3 min.

keep in mind, they are coming from my nft table, which had continuous flow that was somewhat deep at all times, and then sprayers came on once every 20 min or so.

im very surprized by the size of the root masses in my large rubbermade tub.

it is one of those huge ones, and i have about 100 holes in the lid for the plants...

i had a plant with large, thick, about 3 ft long roots... pretty amazing.

if this fence post stuff doesnt work out, hell, i might just stick with those tubs, and as plants develop, pull the smallest 70 plants (roots arent as tangled) and leave the other 30 or so... and just use tubs for veg and bloom... because its obviously working great AND i could add the micron sprayers to that setup very easily and take away the ez clone sprayers.

im glad im testing so many different ways right now so i can find the best way and just go with it.


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## streetlegal (Dec 31, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> got my plants transplanted, and they are not very happy looking at the moment.
> 
> my roots were very tangled, it was a chore to get them appart, but i think i did a pretty good job.
> 
> ...


 good to hear sb, got the girls transplanted finally.. good shit.


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## sherriberry (Jan 1, 2010)

so... should i wait for the plants to come out of shock and adjust to their new enviroment before i put them into bloom?

ive heard stress will cause them to be male...

are seeds gender genetic, or can stress sway them to males?

i did 12 12 last night for the first time, but im starting to think i should put them back into 16 8 or something until they look upright and healthy again.

(i had to rip some roots, so plants arent happy right now, and their absorbtion method has to go from being under water to absorbing mist)


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## sherriberry (Jan 1, 2010)

fatman...

went to lowes... they only have 1/2 ID and 1/4 od lines... no 3/8.

They have 1/2 T's, so i guess the part that im confused on is can i just punch a hole in the 1/2 line with the tool they sell to poke a hole... and plug the T directly into that?

Im building another room, and want to do this your way this time.


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## fatman7574 (Jan 1, 2010)

What have you bought so far? It would be a liitle moreexpensive but less prone to leak if you used 3/4" PVC pipe from the pump to your troughs. Branch off woith 3/4" PVC pipe and run a 3/4" PVC pipe between each pair of the through the length of the trough with 3/4" PVC Tee down to 1/4" female pipe thread and screw one of these Tee's with a 1/4" threaded stem into each adapter using some silicone pipe tape. http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3005-swivel-branch-tee-polypro-14-x-14-nptf.aspx Tie the end of all the pipes to gether with Tee fittings so they are all lopped together. Plug two 10" to 12" long pieces of 1/4" outside diameter tubing into the John Guest fittings. Plug a mister into each of these 1/4" tubes. The 10" to 12" long 1/4" tubing with its fitting can justbe unplugged and saoked in a liitle acid or veinegar as needed if plugged. Just keep a few extra to swap out with thi oses being cleaned of clogs.


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## sherriberry (Jan 1, 2010)

im considering using some sort of a tub, and putting a plant site at each corner of the lid of the tub, and putting the sprayers in there... and putting some 2x6's on the floor on thier tall side, and keeping the buckets up off the ground, then then having a drilled hole in the bottom of the tub for the drain hole, and then having that drain hose go into a big pipe that is slightly tilted, and runs back to the main res.... i need a small pump to kick the water back up to the top of the res probably, unless i sit the plant buckets up higher.

thoughts?


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## sherriberry (Jan 1, 2010)

ive bought nothing yet


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## fatman7574 (Jan 1, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> im considering using some sort of a tub, and putting a plant site at each corner of the lid of the tub, and putting the sprayers in there... and putting some 2x6's on the floor on thier tall side, and keeping the buckets up off the ground, then then having a drilled hole in the bottom of the tub for the drain hole, and then having that drain hose go into a big pipe that is slightly tilted, and runs back to the main res.... i need a small pump to kick the water back up to the top of the res probably, unless i sit the plant buckets up higher.
> thoughts?


Chain hardware stores sell laundry/utility sinks for about $30 each. They are basically 24" square boxes about 18 inches deep. They already come with legs (detachable), sloped bottoms for full drainage and a drain hole. http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xnr/R-100415928/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
There is a thread in this forum where they are used with a high pressure aero system. https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/254876-my-true-hp-aero-plug.html


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## sherriberry (Jan 1, 2010)

i looked at the thread, and got tired of reading... did they say what they use for a lid over the sink?

what do you think about putting 4 plants in one tub, one at each corner?

i know they would starve eachother in the middle for light, but who cares... it would be like one plant with 4 main colas...

making the clones is cake... ive already got too many of those


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## sherriberry (Jan 1, 2010)

i wrote something on the aero thread, you can respond here or there, thanks


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## fatman7574 (Jan 1, 2010)

They are commonly just using a piece of acrylic plastic with holes cut into it. The pods shown look strange as they are insulated and likely covered with panda wrap as they are in a basement. Typically four plants per cube. ie one per square foot. They can be used for SOG but usyually at 2 per square foot rather than 4. Most of the thread is about setting up high pressure aerp or air atomizer systems. Witha Iwaki pump and the misters you should be able to put out plants with hair roots just like an air atomizer or high pressure system. Your system would just have a solemiod on the water line from the pump witha timers so that the sprayers only spearyed the plants a few seconds every few minutesm but the pump would run continously. It makes the palnts internoda spaces a lot closer to gether so that the plants are shorter and the buds fatter and denser. Also the grow times are cut by about 25%. Real low EC nutrients are used as the plants use about 10% as much nutrients and water.


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## sherriberry (Jan 1, 2010)

with the 1gph sprayers we are using and our wkiwkwiwkwiwiwi pump..

what is the best on off cycle times you have found... for posts, and for larger chambers


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## fatman7574 (Jan 2, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> with the 1gph sprayers we are using and our wkiwkwiwkwiwiwi pump..
> 
> what is the best on off cycle times you have found... for posts, and for larger chambers


 
Posts about half spray and half divert, as you are really just NTF witout excess water back up and better oxygen take up as the roots are able to take up greater amounts of oxygen from the surrounding air between sprays than than they can take up from the water if sprayed constantly or if kept submerged or soaked with water. With chamber and medium pressure about 5 seconds spray and two minutes divert. Myabe even less spray as it depends on tubing so izes types and lengths and also where you placed your solenoid. There is not as much spray after the solenoid closes with medium pressure as there is with high pressure using the 1 gph misters. The high pressure systems are running three times the pressure so if the solenoids are not near the misters they continue to spray until the pressure bleeds off.


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## streetlegal (Jan 2, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Posts about half spray and half divert, as you are really just NTF witout excess water back up and better oxygen take up as the roots are able to take up greater amounts of oxygen from the surrounding air between sprays than than they can take up from the water if sprayed constantly or if kept submerged or soaked with water. With chamber and medium pressure about 5 seconds spray and two minutes divert. Myabe even less spray as it depends on tubing so izes types and lengths and also where you placed your solenoid. There is not as much spray after the solenoid closes with medium pressure as there is with high pressure using the 1 gph misters. The high pressure systems are running three times the pressure so if the solenoids are not near the misters they continue to spray until the pressure bleeds off.


I thought id post it here man
http://www.urbangardenershop.com.au/product/1941/default.asp

Im not sure if the sprayers come with it but there listed seperatley as Aeroponics Systems, Aeroponic Mister, 60mic, 0.14ltr/min​

And they are $6 a piece
The system is near $800 but keep in mind that those intelli cycle timres are like $270 alone, there the only timers in OZ that have unlimited cycle settings and let u set it down to the second, fucking sux.


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## fatman7574 (Jan 2, 2010)

You can build much better systems for much less. Just read through this thread. https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/254876-my-true-hp-aero-plug.html Tree farmer has much less in his system and it is much nicer than the retailed scabbed together 12 Volt system you reference. The system you reference does not even seem to include an accumaltor (captive air ) tank. There are several timers readily available that work every bit as well at a lower cost. One of the posters atomizer even makes his own timers. The misters used with the high pressure aero are the same as the medium pressure systems. You can buy misters for less than $1 each. http://www.dripirrigation.com/index.php?cPath=43&sort=2a&page=3 Or buy the high tech ones that are made of polymers that resist calcium build up for $40 each. Omron H5CX-A timers are avilable in Europe. They allow cycling 0.001 s to 9.999 s, 0.01 s to 99.99 s, 0.1 s to 999.9 s, 1 s to 9999 s, 0.1 min to 999.9 min, 1 min to 9999 min, 0.1 h to 999.9 h, 1 h to 9999 h , 1s to 99min59s , 1min to 99h59min. They retail for about $175 but can be bought on ebay quite often for $50 to $75. http://www.ia.omron.com/product/item/h5cx4004g/index.html


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## streetlegal (Jan 2, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> You can build much better systems for much less. Just read through this thread. https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/254876-my-true-hp-aero-plug.html Tree farmer has much less in his system and it is much nicer than the retailed scabbed together 12 Volt system you reference. The system you reference does not even seem to include an accumaltor (captive air ) tank. There are several timers readily available that work every bit as well at a lower cost. One of the posters atomizer even makes his own timers. The misters used with the high pressure aero are the same as the medium pressure systems. You can buy misters for less than $1 each. http://www.dripirrigation.com/index.php?cPath=43&sort=2a&page=3 Or buy the high tech ones that are made of polymers that resist calcium build up for $40 each. Omron H5CX-A timers are avilable in Europe. They allow cycling 0.001 s to 9.999 s, 0.01 s to 99.99 s, 0.1 s to 999.9 s, 1 s to 9999 s, 0.1 min to 999.9 min, 1 min to 9999 min, 0.1 h to 999.9 h, 1 h to 9999 h , 1s to 99min59s , 1min to 99h59min. They retail for about $175 but can be bought on ebay quite often for $50 to $75. http://www.ia.omron.com/product/item/h5cx4004g/index.html


Thanks for lookin man,and yeh i thought just as much..
Also im in Australia, and there like the only 1sec timers that hydro shops carry.. someone else suggested making my own too.


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## fatman7574 (Jan 2, 2010)

streetlegal said:


> Thanks for lookin man,and yeh i thought just as much..
> Also im in Australia, and there like the only 1sec timers that hydro shops carry.. someone else suggested making my own too.


http://www.ia.omron.com/global_network/asia-pacific/australia.html If you have any place there that sells surplus and used industrial equipment then the Omon timer ought to be available there also as it is sold there also. I don't buy them retail but I buy any surplus I see for $75 or less. I have many that are over 5 years old and still running short cycle timing without fault.


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## repvip (Jan 5, 2010)

sherri what's the good word? Did you decide to ditch the fence posts?

I'm still having great results, for half-assing as much as I do! I was able to use some John Guest fittings with 3/8" diameter black vinyl tubing, and it worked excellent. Those fittings solved all my leaks... ordered a set of AeroFlo laser drilled spraylines, as I've heard good things about them... getting my HP pumps tomorrow, so I'm excited to try them out


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## sherriberry (Jan 7, 2010)

just when you think you need all the fancy stuff... guys like this make you wonder why you try...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Sa1IIgmtqY


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## fatman7574 (Jan 7, 2010)

And your point is --what--????


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## sherriberry (Jan 7, 2010)

repvip said:


> sherri what's the good word? Did you decide to ditch the fence posts?
> 
> I'm still having great results, for half-assing as much as I do! I was able to use some John Guest fittings with 3/8" diameter black vinyl tubing, and it worked excellent. Those fittings solved all my leaks... ordered a set of AeroFlo laser drilled spraylines, as I've heard good things about them... getting my HP pumps tomorrow, so I'm excited to try them out


 
wow, those are led lights arent they!!!???

ive been busy as hell, negotiating with the chinese about these new electrodless induction lights... and buying them straight form the factory in china, lol

they are like cfl's, but way better.

anyway... ive just been busy doing shit, my days have been crazy.

and ive been doing more homework on these other setups..

check this one out too...

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/101347-critical-mass-tree-grow-x.html

im just trying to figure out the best of both worlds hybrid...

i can tell from all these threads and grows im finding with dwc in the bottom of these chambers that it wont hurt my grow.

pay special attention to that guys root mass in that link i just posted...

his root mass makes me wonder... in the long run, once roots take over the chambers... whats the point of having the sprayer?

the way those roots are, they are like thier own rockwool medium... 

i got a few open questions still out there waiting to be answered...

soon, i will figure this puzzle out.

im having a blast doing it btw, i love inventing shit


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## repvip (Jan 8, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> wow, those are led lights arent they!!!???
> 
> ive been busy as hell, negotiating with the chinese about these new electrodless induction lights... and buying them straight form the factory in china, lol
> 
> ...


That root mass is crazy! Was there any room left for water in the rez!? Fuck, those are trees man.

Yeah those are LEDs. I went all out and got a very high end 350w quad-band panel. I would say, it is comparable to a 400w HID. It's hard to get coverage out of them, but if you keep them close with a light mover, they are very efficient and work really well. I use them on my small plants. They are definitely not comparable to a 1000w, and not really to a 600 IMHO.

At this point, I wouldn't actually flower my plants with LEDs, unless I had no choice. HIDs produce bigger buds. However, if energy, heat and ventilation are a huge concern, and yield and cost aren't  they work.

I have to agree 100% there are easier, proven ways. Makes me want to ditch all these little plants and do a simple flood and drain with hydroton 

However, your cloner unit, might be perfect. I've had such good success with the stinkbud vegetative units, which are just two rubbermaids on top of each other, the bottom as the reservoir so the top can drain completely, which has sprayers. I'm very tempted to get the biggest rubbermaids available and just go with that simple setup. Two on top of each other is too tall though, so I would need a different way to drain it, or else keep tghe res all containted in one--like your DWC/aero mentioned above. Like that youtube video, but 4 big ass tubs instead 

https://www.rollitup.org/1890919-post2091.html
But I've also had great success with the fence posts. In my experience, the bigger the plants are before they are placed into the fence posts, the better. This is where I had problems with sprayers getting grown over with roots, then it became a simple flood system, that eventually never emptied. Well, it recycled, but never completely emptied before each cycle.

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/149998-heaths-flooded-tube-vertical.html
You've seen this I'm sure? It makes me think DWC in a tube! Shoot, you might see 'RV's flooded fence posts' soon

So, I still want to know about your cloner.. does it drain, or is it self contained?


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## sherriberry (Jan 8, 2010)

i dont do any stacking of tubs... its pointless...

if you think about it, the first stage of clones... their roots cant even reach the water in the bottom even when you use the small rubbermades.

like i said earlier, i have a 3 station setup, small tubs, giant tubs, and then that table i made.

the large tubs, once my assembly line got backed up... i found the larger tubs can veg plants to very big proportions, as long as i keep lifting the light.

i have an 8bay t5 4ft over it, and its PERFECT

you only use half the lights in the begining, (if you use super small cuttings like me) but once the plants are about 5 inches tall, turn em all on and whatch em explode.

in this big tub, right now there is no drain, just bubble stones... and the pump sets in the bottom, and the pvc screws right into the pump itself if you get the right npt fitting...

and then i have the conventional H with the ezclone sprayers all over it, i think 3 on each leg of the H, so 12 sprayers total, on a 566gph pump, works plenty well.

and the roots... well they jsut grow down into the water... but the aeration from the bubble stones, and from the sprayed water itself raining back down... that water doenst hurt the roots... infact... my roots go crazy once they hit the water... they get much thicker.

my cycles are like 5-7 min off, and 2-3 min on.

like i said, i make it rain in there for a while to aerate the water.

im sure if one used sprayers, and had the water actually coming and going from these tubs at all times.... it would be beneficial all the way around.

one would simply have to put a screen of some sort on the drain holes which would be located about 2 inches up from the bottom of the bucket... or possibly 2 drains like DOUBLED's 42 lb grow uses...

and then one feed hose coming in at the very bottom of the tub, and i would probably put it on the opposite end of the tub from the drains, that way you are assured the water gets replaced and flushed and stays fresh...

and this water always moves... never stops moving

and if the power goes out?

all you need are battery backups for the sprayer pumps...

the water in the bottom of the tubs can sit still for a while without problems im sure.

as far as configuring the sprayers in the tubs... im still thinking, but i know i want to use the 1/4 inch hoses and not the pvc.

coolest part of the system i think... is you can lift the lid off any tub at any time, and carry it to another tub.... so you can create an assembly line, without having to seperate plant roots, just let them get tangled and forget about it.

only time you move individual plants is after about 3 weeks, when they start to crowd eachtoehr, but their roots arent together enough yet for that to be any problem...

and in moving, i mean youd split them to 2 lids, or even 3 lids to make room for the plants to fully develop.

and you can use a lid that has all the holes in it from start to finish, you just put in empty netpots to fill holes, and call it a day.

as of right now in all my exploration...

i think this system will be the best as far as ease of use, and growth results, of any other system out there.

we will see tho.


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## sherriberry (Jan 8, 2010)

putting the feed hose and the drain hose on the same side seems beneficial for room setup however...

so i forgot that, if one had to do it this way, then setting the tub on a tilted piece of plywood, so the bottom of the tub itself is sloped, and all water comes back to the drain end, and gets super shallow at the inactive end... this would be another solution in my opinion.

... or, run the feed hose all the way inside the tub to the other end, and that way the flow of water comes back towards the drain drain side and feed side, so all the holes in the tub are on one end, that way you have your isle down the middle of your tubs, with the main drain pipe that brings it all back to the main res...

and you can tape the feed tubes to the BOTTOM of the drain pipe, that way they stay out of light and cooler.... this idea is my favorite, glad i just thought it up,


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## repvip (Jan 8, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> like i said, i make it rain in there for a while to aerate the water.


Woot! Now that's what I'm talking about  haha

I really like your plan. I have the same root experience when vegetating--a couple pics--just like you said, when they hit the water--they explode! (Mine eventually make it through the drain hole and into the reservoir).

I've never been able to replicate that sort of growth, inside a fence post at least. Still, I would like to have the same sort of growth during flowering. 

Two huge tubs on top of each other does sound like a bad idea. Much smarter to have modular tubs that can connect into a central reservoir. I would probably have 3 reservoirs--first 3 weeks of flower, finishing flowering 4-5 weeks, and a small one for flushing... but that's due to a harvest every 2 weeks. 

My cycle times are 1min on/7.5min off. I was doing 1min/5min for about a year and worked great. Switched to 30sec/5min and worked even better! However, some pumps don't quit finish priming the lines before 30 sec is up, so went up to 1 minute.

Too bad because I just got 8 HP pumps  and was really considering going that route with a moduar type setup. However, I would still need... lots. More lines, pressure regulator, accumulator tank, valves, nozzles etc. the list goes on and on. It's too much for me--I'm going to stick with what I know works...

Have to agree with ya on the 1/4" line as well. These pumps I got have 1/4" john guest fittings built in--it's such a breeze to slip a line in, or push back the collar and remove it. Perfection. Not a complete loss--they can run like 4 ez-clone sprayers really well, or twice as many smaller gph sprayers. Or tons of mister/foggers, but steering clear for now. They are 12vdc too. Already went through my first blackout  it's not fun at all. 

Long post with no new info, eh? I like what you are thinking.. I will probably try it soon and see how it works. My room already has a raised platform, so all I need is to make the tub units with sprayers, input and drain. 

There's no need to fight the easy way.

Oh yeah, does your big ass tub leak at all? I've had really good luck with rubbermaid brand, but haven't tried one over 18 gal yet...


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## sherriberry (Jan 8, 2010)

no need for accumulator tanks...

just get those pumps fatman pointed out...

they go to 30psi

get the sprayers he pointed out.

put a filter on the pump intake, and on the drain pipe as it comes back into the main res (one of those deisel fuel filter micron catch bags)

tape a screen over the drain hole(s) in each bucket.

tilt and elevate everything so that it drains back to the main res.

use 1 big or 10 small pumps, doenst matter, in the main res to feed the tubs via the feed lines for the water in the bottom of the tubs.

and the one pump fatman showed us for the the sprayers. Spray water falls back down to the tub water, all goes back to the res.

res has both pumps, the spray pump, and the tub water circulation pumps.

tub water circulation pumps need to be high volume to keep things hoppin, and keep the bubbles flowing 

power goes out, you have the spray pump on battery backup.

if that battery backup wears off, your roots are still hanging in water as the return lines from the tubs are up a couple inches from the floor, so the tub doesnt completely drain. I guess feed line would have to be up a couple inches too then, so that water didnt backflow through the pump like an ebb and flow.

another cool part i realized is, when it comes time to move a tub... guess how hard draining it is? Shut off all pumps for a few sec. Pick up the far side away from the drain holes.... tilt the tub to about 30 degrees.

all water goes to the drain side, and gets high enough to go out the drain holes. Tub might still have a gal or 2 of water in it.

Take the lid off, put a fresh clean tub in its place. Throw the air stone in, plug in the lines to the new tub. Turn pumps back on. Take old tub and clean it and or put it somewhere else. Take lid on or off tub, with all plants in it, and move it to antoher tub, with a different res, with different nute levels.

its the easiest setup... that ive thought up so far 

thats all theres is to it.


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## repvip (Jan 8, 2010)

Right, there's no need for accumulator tanks with this setup. I meant, if I were to go high pressure (these are 200psi pumps) I would need one, because they are relatively low flow (2lpm).

But, I don't see why I couldn't use one for each tub, powering just enough sprayers to drop the pressure.

I'm just not sure how I feel about installing fittings into the tubs themself. It could leak and flood so very easy.

Not sure I'm completely sold on the second, nft/dwc flow part. At least, not yet... I want to see how they drain with just sprayers, and how long it takes.. first, but it will be easy to incorporate. It sounds like you've done your research about combining aero/dwc.. I haven't, but the few things I have seen usually suggest not to combine them. However, logic tells me it should be fine, if not better...

It's definitely easy and cheap enough to be able to give it a shot! Experimenting is half the fun.


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## repvip (Jan 8, 2010)

repvip said:


> Not sure I'm completely sold on the second, nft/dwc flow part. At least, not yet... I want to see how they drain with just sprayers, and how long it takes.. first, but it will be easy to incorporate. It sounds like you've done your research about combining aero/dwc.. I haven't, but the few things I have seen usually suggest not to combine them. However, logic tells me it should be fine, if not better...


Well you know me.. I'll probably do one with and one without, right next to each other


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## sherriberry (Jan 8, 2010)

problem i see with NOT having the dwc high flow system in place...

so lets say you dont do it, and you just have the misters.

and lets be realistic, youll get some overspray, and thus it falls to the bottom of the tub.

now what?

you going to let a bunch of shitty watter just sit in the bottom and rot?

so then lets say you put in a drain hose.

where?

the tubs have an uneven bottom, with 4 low spots in each corner.

so, again, shitty water just sitting down there, not moving.

and thats IF you put the drain ON THE BOTTOM OF THE TUB!!!

good look with that one... youre right, the fitting would get ripped off in no time from the bottom of the tub.

VS, what im suggesting..

put the drains a couple inches up.

There wont be water pressre on the sides of the walls where the drain is... because that will be the height of the water... the drain wont be submerged, it will be at water level.

water takes paths of least resistance

Get a couple rubber o rings, and a sandwitch fitting, and now youre done.

80% of your root zone is up in true aero, with lots of space.

20% of your root zone is down in 2 or 3 inches of water, with tons of oxygen in it... even more than the setups we currently have... where the roots EXPLODE and plants grow fine.

so wheres the draw back? i dont see one


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## repvip (Jan 8, 2010)

No draw back.

I totally understand what you are saying! I think it will work great.

What sort of depth are you aiming for, like an inch? or more... I dunno maybe 4"? What about the flow.. do you want a slow moving pool of water?


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## sherriberry (Jan 8, 2010)

well, in the double D bucket setup page i linked a long time ago...

he grows the huge plants in 8 weeks, and they yeild over 4 lbs a piece...

he has the directions for building his buckets...

the key to his buckets is the diameters of the feed hose, and the drain hoses.

why re-invent the wheel if its already working, right?

here is the link for reference

http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f131/doubleds-med-patient-bucket-diy-mpb-buckets-7883/

so, hes using a single 1/2 feed fitting, (and these are the fittings im going to use btw)

and he has two 1 inch drain fittings.

he is using a 1700gph pump to circulate the water per 5 buckets.

he says water moves quick in all of them.

so i already have a 1700 gph pump, they can be found on ebay once in a while for 60 -80 bucks shipped.

even tho our buckets are bigger, i dont think it matters... what matters is the speed of the water moving through the hoses and making sure there is enough flow across all hoses.

so hes using 2 1700 gph pumps for 10 buckets... using those fittings.

I think thats what i plan to do.

Except, instead of using the hydron rocks with a dripper, we will have aero up top.


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## sherriberry (Jan 8, 2010)

the drain height...

that is somethign up for experimentation.

the buckets with the lower drain heights, just know that they will be the ones towards the lower end of the main drain gutter that goes back to the res (the gutter is at its lowest right before it hits the res, and the pipe has to be lower than the buckets)

i think im going to have one as low as possible there the walls flatten so i can put the drain fitting without leaks.

then have one an inch up from that.

then have one up another 2 inches from that.

I think the least height will be the best personally, but who knows until you try.


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## sherriberry (Jan 8, 2010)

fatman, what do you think about this pump.

i found a conversion chart for max head lift vs max psi because they are one in the same...

100 ft is 44psi.

this pump being 125 ft means it is probably around 50psi or more.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=1479


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## fatman7574 (Jan 8, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> fatman, what do you think about this pump.
> 
> i found a conversion chart for max head lift vs max psi because they are one in the same...
> 
> ...


cast iron would have a very short life span


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## sherriberry (Jan 8, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> cast iron would have a very short life span


 
how short is short? i guess im glad i didnt buy 2


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## sherriberry (Jan 8, 2010)

i have some hope... here is one that was used for a while for sale, still in good working condition...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mokon-Iron-Water-Pump-25-GPM-60-PSI-w-Century-AC-Motor_W0QQitemZ390139877790QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Pumps?hash=item5ad626199e


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## fatman7574 (Jan 8, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> i have some hope... here is one that was used for a while for sale, still in good working condition...
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Mokon-Iron-Water-Pump-25-GPM-60-PSI-w-Century-AC-Motor_W0QQitemZ390139877790QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Pumps?hash=item5ad626199e


Consider this: With a 1 gph spray head your pump only needs to provide 1.05 ml per spray head usually per second. There is only one spray head per every two cubic feet of root space spraying 1 second every minute.


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## sherriberry (Jan 8, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Consider this: With a 1 gph spray head your pump only needs to provide 1.05 ml per spray head usually per second. There is only one spray head per every two cubic feet of root space spraying 1 second every minute.


 
youre still correct, but i just wanted to point out this is going to be for my new setup, where there are 2 sprayers per large 4x2x2 tub.

so thats 16 cubic ft, 8 per sprayer... and im not going to lose sleep if i over spray a bit.

on another note... i got some solenoids that are normally open, and closed when they get electricity. they are 3/4 npt.

should i get a big pressure tank? or should i just use this 50 psi pump i just bought, and use the solenoid...

but the problem im having is.. what do i do when the solenoid is closed... then how do i divert the water? 

do i have to get another solenoid that is normally closed,a nd have them alternate?

or, can i get some sort of regulator or bow off valve that lets excess pressure re route back to the res?

thanks fatman


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## sherriberry (Jan 8, 2010)

the other thing is...

as pumps approach their max psi, their flow rates drastically fall.

While it might be a 330gph pump at low psi's, it might only be a 30gph pump at 50 psi.

If i have 30 sprayers, and they allow 30gph to go by, it means the system will pressurize to whatever point the pumps flow rate falls down to 30gpm, and then it will reach an equilibrium point, if that makes sense?

time will tell, the damage is already done, i bought one, ill let you know how it works.

other thing is, i can still install a regulator/bov and allow exess pressure to return to the res if it does turn out to be too much flow...

anyway...

i cant find any good deals on normally open solenoids. There are a couple for 30 bucks, but they are either 12v or 240v

are they even worth messing with or should i just wait for the 120v to come along?

ever see any 3 way solenoids where it spits it one way or the other? diverter valve is another word for it. I had one on my watch list on ebay, and i missed it, and havent seen one since


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## sherriberry (Jan 9, 2010)

for as much brains as i have, i made the dumbest mistake....

i found in the back corner of my panda wrap, air tight grow room cube...

a male plant.

luckily, i did 12/12 for the first time last night, 

and did 14/10, the night before...

so, i think it could have only been 2 days along...

but if you would have seen how many balls this thing had on it, you would have shot me... 

i hope to hell none of them opened.

worse case scenario, if they did... theres 20 plants in there, that were all from seed.

i still have some others in another room that are still in veg, so it wouldnt have gotten them all.

the other good thing is, my fan for the room is still in the mail, so theres not a lot of breeze in the room, so time will tell.

when i saw it, i said about every cuss word known to man.

it is outside in the trash, in an air tight bag as we speak.

also, still have spider mites... and my alaskan buhach powder has yet to show up.

damn those alaskans


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## repvip (Jan 9, 2010)

Glad you caught the bastard!

Everytime I grow from seeds, I get a hermaphrodite. Everything seems fine until a few weeks in... and she grow a pair or three.

I've been thinking more of your combo idea. Where do the plants take up most of the nutes? And where do they take up most of the oxygen? 

Exactly. So if the DWC is providing most of the nutes, do you think you could just provide fog from clean water for the upper roots?


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## sherriberry (Jan 9, 2010)

i think it would be just as easy to get fog of nute water from the main res..

the root surface area, you want all of it absorbing as much as possible, i would think...


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## streetlegal (Jan 9, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> i think it would be just as easy to get fog of nute water from the main res..
> 
> the root surface area, you want all of it absorbing as much as possible, i would think...


 u can float foggers on pieces of styrofoam so they go up and down with the water level


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## sherriberry (Jan 9, 2010)

fatman, i got the buhack powder today finally 

how much should i use? Should i sprinkle it on plants, or should i just lite it on fire?

if lit on fire, how big of pile should i lite?

the room is only 8x6x6 ft, and i can shut down ventilation at night, so the room becomes air tight... which is when i plan to use it


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## fatman7574 (Jan 9, 2010)

Just a rounded teaspoon in a metal container of some type placed on top of a metal object. I use and empty tuna fish can placed on top of an up side down empty tuna fish can. Light it with a match and it smolders. It should be used with the exhaust fans turned off. Use it every tow to three days for at laest 12 days so that it will kill all mites plus all mites that hatch from eggs. It will not kill the mites until they hatch out of their eggs.


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## sherriberry (Jan 10, 2010)

you find any normally open solenoids for 20 bucks for me yet fatman? 

or have a solution on how to recirculate back to the res when my valve to my feed lines is shut?

i owe you lots of alcohol at this point, so you better come visit one day


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## fatman7574 (Jan 10, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> you find any normally open solenoids for 20 bucks for me yet fatman?
> 
> or have a solution on how to recirculate back to the res when my valve to my feed lines is shut?
> 
> i owe you lots of alcohol at this point, so you better come visit one day


 
Install a Tee fitting on the line exiting your pump. On the side Tee branch place the solenoid. When the solenoid is open the water takes the path of least resistance and flows through the solenoid on the Tee and flows back into the reservoir. When the slonoid is clsosed the water flows through the sprayer nozzles. I use plastic solenoid valves. ie Hayward and Plastomatic. I only buy surplus as they are expensive. Normally closed are what are usually available. For short duration sprays that works fine. Just use it on the branch of the Tee fitting that feeds the sprayers. Quite often you can find stainless steel solenoids valves surplus at cheap prices. It is pretty much a hit and miss venture on eBay though. You need the solenoid and pie that is used on the return line to be as large as the pumps exit or larger. If used on the mozzle feed lines it needs be only as large as your feed lines.


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## sherriberry (Jan 10, 2010)

well, i have 2 kinds, both are normally closed.

they are both 3/4 npt

problem is this...

on the plastic one, when it is open, it doesnt open very much, still has resistance.

the other one i have is brass, but its a surplus and has been used for a long time with nat gas. It opens way up, but how bad will the brass hurt me with leaching? Im hoping all the leaching has already occured since it is used...


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## fatman7574 (Jan 10, 2010)

The leaching will not be that much of an issue because the water will always be circulating rather than sitting still under pressure. The problem will be that the valve will have a shortened life span as it will slowly deteriorate over a shorter time then would a stainless steel valve. It would be a period of years before it acused setaing problems (leakage) however. The safe way to set up a valve is to consider that a solenoid when it burns out will usually do so in its uncharged position. If your valves are normally closed then the valve should be placed on the TEE arm that feeds water back to the resrvoir. That will require the solenid be charged at all times that return is done to the resrvoir. That means using more wattage but it also means if the unit burns iut that the palnts will just be sparyed constatly verus no spray at all. The solenoids only use a few watts so that should not really matter and most large metal valves have a 100% duty cycle so life span should not be shortened.


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## sherriberry (Jan 13, 2010)

wwwoooooowwwwwww

im such an idiot...

this is a lot of good and a lot of bad rolled into one post.

so yesterday afternoon around 4ish, i added some more water and nutes to my big clone tub that is like 4 ft long (one of the big rubbermaids)

the water level is barely above a standard fish tank pump, so about 4 or 5 inches.

there is an airstone in there.

the clones are prob about 4 or 5 weeks along. they are all about 1.5 ft tall, and have roots that touch the bottom.

So i flipped the switch on my power strip to shut the pumps off so i didnt get sprayed while i was lifting the lid to check the ph, etc.

guess what, never flipped it back on until a min ago...

about 30 hours... of no stinkbud sprayers.

so guess what happened?

i only lost 5% of my plants.

the rest are FINE!!!!

the ones that didnt make it are the ones that couldnt touch the bottom.

amazingly... the plants roots were able to suck moisture up... about 2 ft, but well over a ft.

and an air stone... is all that kept running.

so, this is a good and bad thing, obviously bad i lost a couple plants...

but a GREAT TEST to see what plants actually need to survive in a power outage.

im even more excited because this exact setup and tub will be what im using for my doubleD mimicked.. aero sprayer tubs.... my new system.

so, basically... i know that if worst comes to worst.... my air pump needs power... nothing else... especially considering the power was out for over 30 hours!!!! (because im too stupid to flip a switch back on)

anyway... thought that was a cool story, should have been a lot worse, looking forward to the new setup and getting rid of those damn white posts... and even ditching my nft table i made...

giant rubbermaids with a couple inches of water in the bottom is where its at.


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## repvip (Jan 14, 2010)

Nice work 

I've been out shopping for an XL rubbermaid with the flat lid--slim pickings around here. Going to try some of the purple .8gph misters with 170psi pump for a half-ass trial run. Still don't have pressure regulator, valves, adv's or anything like that anyway.

How is the buhach powder working?

Have you tried hooking up that harbor freight pump? Curious about how it went.. leaks, priming, did it have enough pressure.. whatnot


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## sherriberry (Jan 15, 2010)

havent hooked up the pump yet.

The buhach powder only works well if your room is air tight.

I have another room that is not air tight, and the smell... made me sick for a while

it doesnt bother you at first... but then its like, yo uthink youve been poisoned.

There is no way i would use this shit on a dog or around my kids.

But as far as the air tight room goes, i put it in there before lights out, light it, shut the air tight door, and shut off the exhaust fan.

13 hours it lingers in there until the next day, and i wait an extra hour after lights on to turn my fan back on that way the room has a chance to warm up because its cold here right now.

its kept the bugs to a minimum... i dont think they are ALL dead yet, but i use it EVERY NIGHT too, and im on my 5th night tonight i think... so i think its just old eggs still hatching that is keeping them alive.

I use nothing else in the room or on those plants, so the buhach powder can kill them alone...

but damn, its gotta be air tight i think, otherwise its not worth it


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## fatman7574 (Jan 15, 2010)

Hey it smells better than Cutter,'s and all the other mosquito repellants. Thats my main use for Buhach. I use it as a preventaive in plant rooms but they are quite airtight. The doors are fully insulated and weather stripped external entry doors. Between air conditioning, dehumification and CO2 a sealed room is pretty much a must. If you think Buhach stinks, try burning sulfur for mildew.


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## sherriberry (Jan 16, 2010)

i figured id throw this out so you guys knew what was going on...

on my nft table that i made that holds all the plants... well, all plants have been removed from that table and taken to flower room now...

except one.

The big one. I called it shaq from the begining, when it was a seedling, it was triple fast at growing compared to the other plants.

This thing now has a stem that is 2 inches thick. Im not kidding.

I think its a New white widdow from bcseeds.com. Anyway... i cant get it out of the lid of the table. Its root mass is too massive.

So, im hoping it shows its sex, and I really hope its a female... altho i dont know if i want to take clones from this thing as its hard telling how huge it will get if put in 12/12.

So, theres a little fun fact... i can cut and rip the lid to let the plant escape, but like i said, im going to see if it ever shows sex without 12/12 light.

Do you think it will? Its past 2 months old probably. It has side branches that are 2 to 3 ft long.. the just lay on the table and go in between other plants.

This thing is a monster.


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## sherriberry (Jan 16, 2010)

revip...

lowes carries the RUGGEDTOTE tubs, which are the same thing... i think i might even like them more.

Super walmarts carry the rubbermaid line where i live.

Hope this helps.


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## repvip (Jan 16, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> revip...
> 
> lowes carries the RUGGEDTOTE tubs, which are the same thing... i think i might even like them more.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Do the ruggedtotes come larger than 30ish inches? I want something huge around 48" if I can find one in stock 

You should be able to pre-sex your plant by the 8th internode during veg.. there is a good thread on it somewhere around here... see if I can find it. Like I mentioned earlier I have had hermies from seeds quite often and this method might not be 100% for that scenario...

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/38684-micro-sexing-before-taking-clones.html

oh snap!! It's a thread by Earl  Sorry Fatman
my favorite part is the shepards hook!!!


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## fatman7574 (Jan 16, 2010)

repvip said:


> Thanks! Do the ruggedtotes come larger than 30ish inches? I want something huge around 48" if I can find one in stock
> 
> You should be able to pre-sex your plant by the 8th internode during veg.. there is a good thread on it somewhere around here... see if I can find it. Like I mentioned earlier I have had hermies from seeds quite often and this method might not be 100% for that scenario...
> 
> ...


Earl would be OK if just once he wrote something or did something original. I just don't think he is capable though. Just take what he finds and accept credit as if it is his. The few times he seems to try to step out on his own he is just flat ass wrong in what he writes. Oh well. He does post pictures. Not good pictures, but pictures anyway.


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## repvip (Jan 16, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Earl would be OK if just once he wrote something or did something original. I just don't think he is capable though. Just take what he finds and accept credit as if it is his. The few times he seems to try to step out on his own he is just flat ass wrong in what he writes. Oh well. He does post pictures. Not good pictures, but pictures anyway.


fatman.. just know I was joking--I don't take anything on here seriously. But seriously  what's your opinion on this technique? It seems legit to me, but more info is always better!


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## fatman7574 (Jan 16, 2010)

Yes it is just another case of Earl posting old stuff like he discovered it. That methodology was practiced in the 70's or earlier. It is considered an accepatable fairly accurate manner of presexing that is effective for many strains and their different phenotypes. I really don't find it worth the effort nor do I consider the small amount of possible gain in time as being important however I grow only occasional new stock from seeds so there is seldom ever any real rush to sex the plants started from seeds. I usually just grow them until I can clone them. I clone them heavily and just sex a newly rooted clone while the others veg. If the clone turns out male I simply thrown out the parent and the clones. If the clone turns out female then the other clones continue to be vegged untill they can be hacked up to produce clones. By the time those clones are ready the first clone will show whether it is worth budding the mass of clones. A week or two saved considering all that really does not really matter much as there are always at least four or five such new seed based clones being tried at once.


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## repvip (Jan 16, 2010)

I could ask you questions all day 

Is there ever a point with high pressure aero that you could do continuous fogging? Could you ever get the mist volume low enough, with a large enough chamber, to run constantly? Theoretical food for thought. Maybe have the air/mist "flow" with a small current of air from one source, through the root zone, and to an exit/waste/ or collect/recirculate.


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## fatman7574 (Jan 16, 2010)

repvip said:


> I could ask you questions all day
> 
> Is there ever a point with high pressure aero that you could do continuous fogging? Could you ever get the mist volume low enough, with a large enough chamber, to run constantly? Theoretical food for thought. Maybe have the air/mist "flow" with a small current of air from one source, through the root zone, and to an exit/waste/ or collect/recirculate.


There is actually a number as for the volume of fluid, but itis quite small. The atomized fluid should be at levels between between 4 x 10^-4 % and 27 x 10^-9 % of the volume of the atmosphere in the chamber surrounding the plants roots. The top end is about what is typically injected every minute or every two mountes in a high pressure system by tree farmer. The minimal amount as suggested by the scientists is unfathomably small. It would take an air atomizer system with a very small nozzle and very high pressure to manintain such low levels. even with a very large chamber. I think the number is entirely theoretical in nature and not a tested level.


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## repvip (Jan 16, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> There is actually a number as for the volume of fluid, but itis quite small. The atomized fluid should be at levels between between 4 x 10^-4 % and 27 x 10^-9 % of the volume of the atmosphere in the chamber surrounding the plants roots. The top end is about what is typically injected every minute or every two mountes in a high pressure system by tree farmer. The minimal amount as suggested by the scientists is unfathomably small. It would take an air atomizer system with a very small nozzle and very high pressure to manintain such low levels. even with a very large chamber. I think the number is entirely theoretical in nature and not a tested level.


That was *exactly* the answer I was looking for 

I finally figured out how to power my 12vdc pumps off my 120v recycle timer  They require a decent amount of amperage. Ended up using an automotive relay with a 12v coil (attached to a 120vac->12vdc cheap plug) which connects a car battery to the pumps. It's convertible for power outage situations; plus I had all the parts. The relay is only 30amp but can handle 4 pumps probably with the start-up draw.

Modified 1 unit with 3gph sprayers, one at both ends of each post pointing inwards. It looks nice, but there won't be any fine hairs with the spray at this uncontrolled pressure! Still, this should work much better than before. I most post a pic later.

Also, since switching to RO I am having a nute problem for those ~5-6weeks flowering surely it is magnseium or calcium.. Having "rust spots" show up in older leaves, new leaves look great maybe a little light in color. A couple of things happened at once (RO water is new, now using chlorine  (thanks fatman) , was adding extra magnesium + carbs). So It could be too much magnesium causing calcium problems, or not enough calcium, or possible not enough magnsieum? The chlorine didn't affect any other plants. I'll throw up a pic tonight.

ps - household bleach at 0.10mL/gallon for the RO storage tank refreshed every 3-4 days and 0.05mL/gallon for nutrient reservoirs (~10gal)every 3-4 days.. does that sound about right?


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## fatman7574 (Jan 17, 2010)

Yepper. 1 ml is roughly equivalent to 16 drops and you desire usually 1.6 drops per gallon.


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## repvip (Jan 17, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Yepper. 1 ml is roughly equivalent to 16 drops and you desire usually 1.6 drops per gallon.


Great!

Here's a pic of what is going on. Changed the nutrient reservoir and double checked the measurements.. and realized I need a good reference book for this I'm not sure... it seems to match zinc/potassium deficiency descriptions, but I thought for sure it was from excess magnesium or not enough calcium. They were switched to RO halfway. The pH was still in range, ppm's on the higher end at ~1700.


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## sherriberry (Jan 18, 2010)

so i started playing with that pump tonight...

here is the first reason why it is so cheap in price...

it doesnt come with a power cord!

you actually have to take the little black box on top appart, and splice your own wires together!

id recomend an extension cord and chopping off the female end... way cheaper and easier than building your own cord.

anyway... tomorrow, if i get a chance, i will test it and see how it spits.

As far as leaking goes... i doubt it honestly.

The pump motor and the pump turbine are kind of in 2 seperate areas with a gap in between. Hope the damn thing works, if so ill be buying 4 more just to have backups because theyve lowered the price down to 33 from 39... so its becoming more and more of a no brainer.

biggest problem im currently in debate about is this...

IF i just have the drain system on all my rubermaid tubs im going to use... just gravity feed back to the res...

that means it has to come in up high on the res, lets say a foot.

But the tubs have to gravity feed down to the main return pipe... and if the outlet spout on the tub is only a few inches fromt he bottom of the tub...

then the tub HAS TO BE ELEVATED up on some sort of a stand.

this isnt the end of the world, but im wondering just how tall my plants might end up getting and if they end up hitting the roof?

Luckily, im going to be hanging the lights down between plants vertically, but still...

Im debating putting the drain up higher on the tub, having a bit deeper of water in the bottom, that way i dont have to elevate the entire tub as much and still have the drain gravity feed.


.... and then the ultimate solution, that scares me... is to have a pick up pump, constantly shoot water from a low res, with the drain pipe coming in shallow, and then having that pump up into a big deeper main res

thoughts?


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## sherriberry (Jan 18, 2010)

ive also thought about eliminating the res all together... and just daisy chaning all the tubs together... and just putting the high volume pump IN one of the tubs, or if it was an external pump, BETWEEN 2 of the tubs, and putting 5 in a loop.

not sure how this would work, but i could technically have a dedicated res tub, but i dont think its something i would have to have.

then you just add the nutes and water to any of the tubs, wait for it to circulate for a while, and then test the water after a few min and see where you are at.

Adding extra water to any tub, i would think would equalize across all the tubs, as they gravity feed back to equal with eachother due to pressure.

only drawback on a setup like this is where does one filter the water?

after the pump i suppose witha 20 micron canister... but still... how to stop debris from coming back into the pump from the tubs

... im still thinking about all this stuff obviously


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## repvip (Jan 18, 2010)

So... I actually have that same pump. You will also need to prime it  I had leaks around the cast iron input/outputs but maybe it was just mine--it was harbor freight after all  

I'm already frustrated with 3gph sprayers and a 200mesh canister filter.. It's only been 2 days and I cant stop worrying about clogging, but I'm the dumbass using organics. 

Been sitting here for 15 minutes and can't think of a solution to your drain problem. Maybe you could have all the drains feed into T-joints and connect into the input of the pump, and have the reservoir spread out over how many rubbermaids you have. Then they aren't really drains so to speak... so you wouldn't need to elevate. Otherwise a pump for every tub? Sorry not much help--looking forward to hearing what you figure out.


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## fatman7574 (Jan 18, 2010)

One thing that would stop a lot of the clogging issues and bacterial bloom issues of using organic fertilizers is to treat them as if the are waste water (sewage). By this I mean mix them and keep them in a esperate resrvoir with 24/7 air pumping for 2 to three weeks before use. They will go through the same cycle as if in an aquarium or sewage treatment plant. The (nitrogen) solids will break down into ammonia and the bacteria will then break that into nitrites and from nitrites to nitrates. Some biomass willbe careated. This being the actuall mass of the bacteria and the dead bacteria cells. Filter this out after two to three weeks then use the "clean" nutrients. This process use a lot of bacteria while it takes place. Getting it done before using it prevents that DO from be used by the bacteria, and it turns the naitrogen matter into nitrates which are stable and easily taken up by the roots. It also allows for a much more stable pH, less smell and the breakdown of particles into soluble compounds. so as to gretaer lessen clogging but also increase the availabilities of those nutrients to the plant roots.


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## sherriberry (Jan 19, 2010)

eureka.... got it!!! 


k, first off, repvip... i wasnt talking about putting a pump in each res, just 1 pump in one of the reses... and it would pump to the next one... and thus the next res would get fuller, and water would get higher than the level of the third res, so water would start to spill to the third res... then the 4th res... until it ends up back at the res that the pump is in.

each of these res's are tubs with plants in them...

now... i was wanting to do something like fatman is talking about and has talked about in the past where the excess runoff from the sprayers is drained to waste... and not recycled.

well... here might be the perfect setup for me and what im trying to do, so hopefully you guys follow.

There is a main res. All water and nutes in this res are fresh, there is no waste water that returns to this main res.

The only pump attached to this main res is the pump for the sprayers.

Sprayers spray once in a while.

Then we have the 5 or more tubs.

These tubs are all daisy chained together by holes and tubes that are all equal in height, about 2 inches up from the bottom of the tubs.

In one of these tubs, or in between 2 of these tubs... is a high volume pump.

it simply keeps the water going in a circle as described in my first paragraph to repvip about how gravity will cause the water to cascade from one tub to another once one gets fuller than another...

Each tub has an air stone in it.

1 of the tubs... or if you wanted to get ambitious, several of the tubs... have a WASTE DRAIN PORT.

This port is up higher than the other ports that allow the water to circulate from tub to tub.

This waste port... is an overflow port... so that as runoff from sprayers adds itself to the circulating nute water below...

it can overflow to waste.

cooler yet... the high volume circulating pump... its feed line to the next tub in the chain... has a T on it. Whenever you want to drain all the tubs completely, and start over... you open a valve,a nd your circulating pump is T'd off so that instead of the fluid in that tub going to the next tub... it just goes to waste... it might T into the waste line itself. 

The waste line can go to a sump pump in a basement... so the waste line can run along the ground, and it will gravity feed to the sump pump hole, and the tubs can sit on the groun, and their waste drain port might be 4 inches high, so you wouldnt have any backfeed problems.

anyway, what i was getting at... when you want to do a complete flush of all the tubs old waters... you flip a valve... water from the high volume now gets expelled to waste...

you start with the first tub that the pump otherwise would pump to... you lift up one end of it so it cumps the majority of its water to the next tub due to water levels rising and tub tilting.

then you go to the next tub and do the same thing... eventually, all the fluid ends up back at the tub that has the pump in it... and all nutes get expelled to waste... so you can start over.


Then you just keep your main res HIGHER than all your tubs with plants in them.

You can then just put the sprayers on constant until the tubs fill back up again... or you can have a gravity line with a valve on it, and just open that valve, and REFILL all the tubs with the already pre mixed and tested nute water in the main res.

Once the tubs are all full enough again to where it almos comes out the drain waste drain port (which is a couple inches above all the otehr ports that attach each of the plant tubs together)...

then its back to business as usual... you close the valve that spills from the main res down to the plant tubs...

and now the only way that water gets to the plant tubs is through the sprayers every few minutes.

SO to recap, you have 1 high volume pump down in the plant tubs that keeps pushing water from one tub to the next.

you have 1 MP or HP srapyer pump attached to a main res that has no recycled nutes in it.

you have bubble stones in each tub attached to a compressor.

So, if power goes out, all youd need is the bubblers going.. and if you wanted to take it one step further, you sprayer pump on battery backup as well.

Everything else would be fine with the power out even if the high volume pump shut off for a few days.

booyah bitches


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## sherriberry (Jan 19, 2010)

Tubbbb
l
Tubbbb
..........l
Tubbbb
l
Tubbbb
..........l
Tubbbb
l
pump ------> this line would go to top of page to first tub, and water would cycle back through all tubs


tubs are sitting side by side, all daisy chaned together.

Pump would have a line that goes back to the first tub. This is the high volume pump to circulate nute water (oxygenate)

All tubs are sitting on the floor, no raising necessary.

l = the line from one tub to anther

... = nothing. I just had to hit a letter so that the "l" would be at the end of the tub instead of the begining.

Main res is not pictured, but i think you get the idea.


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## sherriberry (Jan 19, 2010)

technically, you could have each tub just have one port... and that be a waste drain port... and then they just all merge, and just all go to waste.

keep the bubblers in there to oxygenate things, and get rid of the high volume pump to circulate things. Each tub starts filling up and then excess drains off.



other idea is...

If you wanted to have a true recycling system and not drain anything to waste...

impliment the high volume pump again... and daisy chain the tubs together again.. 

and you could have some sort of a float sensor attached to one of your tubs with a small pump in there that every so often kicks the nutes back up to the main res where the sprayer pump is once enough excess has accumulated in the tubs from the sprayers and the main res.


... this last idea is probably what i will do... unless fatman can talk me out of it first 




but either way... the idea of having all tubs gravity drain back to a main res... thats impossible and thus obsolete. (if you want to keep the tubs on the ground to maximize plant growth space)


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## sherriberry (Jan 21, 2010)

ive got my next system drawn up.

im excited... its the best of all worlds i think..

how do i post a pic, ill draw you guys a diagram


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## squarepush3r (Jan 29, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> ive also thought about eliminating the res all together... and just daisy chaning all the tubs together... and just putting the high volume pump IN one of the tubs, or if it was an external pump, BETWEEN 2 of the tubs, and putting 5 in a loop.
> 
> not sure how this would work, but i could technically have a dedicated res tub, but i dont think its something i would have to have.
> 
> ...


i actually have this concept kind of down pat. PM me if you would like details..


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## sherriberry (Jan 29, 2010)

thanks, im all for new knowledge

for the rest of you, i will finally post up pics of what im talking about for the tubs...

and my newest idea...

vertical wall aero chambers, that mimic the idea "heath vertical grow tubes" thread uses... just aero chambers instead of skinny pipes.

i will be doing the basic tubs in the first drawing first, and then experiment and figure out the best way to make these wall chambers later.

peace


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## sherriberry (Jan 29, 2010)

Thats the tubs idea... i showed it in different configurations, but id use 2 rows of these setups side by side, and jsut hang lights down in plants down the length of it


now for the med pressure or high pressure aero chamber walls that will be ablut 5 ft high, and have lights in the middle of the walls. Plant sites would be all up and down the walls, and ive figured out how to mount the netpots up and down the wall. The wall would be white pvc panel, and have a bladder at the bottom, along with a rigid frame at the bottom, and a drain hose out of the bladder.

this will drain out the drain hose to a main lateral drain pipe that comes by, and takes it to the main res, or to the sewer, one of the 2.


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## sherriberry (Jan 29, 2010)

Alright, sorry for so many pics at once, i was drawing some stuff and got carried away.
These are TOP views of areo chamber shapes. I would make the curved walls out of pvc sheets which come in 4x8 sheets, and can be cut easily.
These chambers would be about 4 or 5 ft tall, and have an area under them and have a rigid stand at the base and up on top to keep them in shape.
Under the chambers, there would be a shower bladder as sold at lowes, which comes in any length you want, and its prob 4 feet wide. This bladder would be sandwiched and secured between the bottom frame and the pvc walls, so all water running down would hit the bladder.
The bladder will have a bulkhead drain fitting, and gravity drain to a main pipe that comes around under each chamber, and ends at the res.

In one of the pictures, the orange boxes are the res's, and the orange arrows signify the flow of the drain pipe.

The drain pipe would be similar to what *heath* already has set up, just no plants growing out of it

As far as securing the platns to the *vertical* walls, i have a solution, but i dont have a way to picture it,a nd describing it wouldnt make much sense until i can picture it, but it involves using a pvc pipe, and dilling a hole in the wall, and using a 45deg pipe bend, and putting the netpot in the pipe, and having the other end of the pipe go through the wall.

Securing it is the tricky part, but ive got it figured out i think

Inside the chambers, there will be hp aero misters.

I drew up a bunch of configureations, but i like the ones at the bottom the best.

The red squares at the bottom represent additional floor sitting rubbermaids, which would have plants growing up from those as well, so you have walls and floor covered.

green represents faces of the chamber that have plants frowing from them.

to enter some of the grow rooms, if a single chamber was on wheels, it could be clocked, or rotated, thus allowing a person to enter the grow circle.

im still trying to figure out if i want to build a fram that has a curve to it, and what i would make it out of.

The curve actually helps the pvc sheet stay rigid vertically, kind of like tape measure tape does.

hope this helps you guys follow what im trying to do.
















































This one is probably my favorite tho, as far as being doable, and cheap, and still function as I want it to.

I forgot to put tubs on the floor too, but you get the idea.

I figure each one of these chambers would be about 4 ft long, and almost 2 ft wide.

so figure it will fit in a 15x8 ft area no problem... and chambers could be made shorter for a different sized area.

i put 2 orange res's in this one... but youd really only need one res, 

but 2 would come in handy if you had 2 stages of plants, so you get kind of a perpetual harvest.

Tubs on the floor could also hold earlier clones that still need root development before being able to fully utilize the aero chambers setup


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## sherriberry (Jan 29, 2010)

if you had the space and had the money, this setup would probably out yeild just about anything else using only 6 lights.

so you figure *heath* is getting 42oz off a 600 watt light in his vertical tube grow with 4 rows of plants

here we have 6 of those, so, 3600 watts...

and you figure his chamber isnt hp aero, so you are up to over 3 lbs per light, so at least 18 lbs if you did this setup.

as far as the sprayers in the middle chambers go, you can run the feed lines up on the ceiling outside the grow room and then have them drop down into the chambers vertically, and be attached to sprayer T's, suspended in mid air in between oposing walls.

id do an air tight panda wrap room around all this stuff, and then have co2 and a portable ac, and just keep the air in the grow room, and the portible ac dehumidifies it all, and then you dont have to vent and worry about smell, or worry about c02 escaping.

You figure 18+lbs, in a 14x20 ft room...

and then figure we could add another row of plant sites instead of just the 4 or however many *heath* uses.

If you have a panda ceiling, then the plant will grow across the roof over the light, which is fine.

so extra plant sites, plus if you put tubs on the ground around the rooms to hold even more plants...

your talking prob 24lbs or more...

off 6 600w bulbs.... every 8 weeks.

This would have to be the most efficient way to grow if electricity is an issue.


edit: i put the 2 res's in the corners in the wrong spot, youd want to put them up by the door probably so you could put this in a smaller room, and not need a walk way all the way around the back to get to the res's


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## squarepush3r (Jan 30, 2010)

well, you setup looks good, I didn't spend a whole lot of time following all of the diagrams. But, the vertical looks good with aero. 


Simplicity is a good factor to have, I'm thinking a complicated multi-room aero vertical system may be efficient, but also maybe very prone to high maintenance or design time or prone to error. I would tend to aim for something more simple. Look, in Heaths case, he had the spiraling tube which help a water flow of about an inch in it. If his pump were to break, he would haev 1-2 days to come find it and fix it, no problem. An aero system clog or failure, you lose crops in a few hours. NFT may be a bit better than that, but true aero suspended roots are pretty prone to failure.


About my RDWC, daisy chaining idea, this is what I am planning to do for my next operation. You basically daisy chain DWC buckets, all connected with hose (except for there is no link between first and last bucket). Make your rez seperate, and make your rez have the water from the final bucket flow into it, and the pump from the rez into your first bucket.

All you need is 1 pump and the water flows just by circulation. The 2 issues are, to have an overflow out in case the water clogs, and to use big connector tubes (I think 2" or more). I'll try to make a picture 

Its certainly not vertical, although I was thinking of making it partially aero, with sprayers to the roots of each pot/net pot, the have the water beneath. So, aero/dwc hybrid (not vertical). Vertical seems to require the need of high plant #, which I would avoid if possible


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## sherriberry (Jan 30, 2010)

squarepush3r said:


> All you need is 1 pump and the water flows just by circulation. The 2 issues are, to have an overflow out in case the water clogs, and to use big connector tubes (I think 2" or more). I'll try to make a picture


 
i thought of this, but...

consider if a line gets clogged.... EVERYTHING gets F'd up

your first tub might flood, all tubs after that go dry, etc.

by splitting the flow and having it go both ways, you half your losses if things go wrong... AND your pump cant run dry because the water will divert to the other direction due to backpressure and gravity of the tub that would get clogged.... so all the water would start going only one way, and then go back to the middle tub.

So hypothetically, 

if you had 5 tubs in a row, and the pump in the middle

1 2 3 4 5

so the pump is in tub 3, and it spits to 1 and 5

if a clog happens in 1, you only harm plants in tub 2.

if a clog happens in 5, you only harm plants in tub 4.

If a hose clogs in 2 or 4, nothing gets hurt.

Thats why i do it the way i do. Hope that makes sense


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## squarepush3r (Jan 30, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> i thought of this, but...
> 
> consider if a line gets clogged.... EVERYTHING gets F'd up
> 
> ...


check this out for vertical aeroponic

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=151662


regarding the clog, heres how I deal with that. On the first tub input, you have an overflow connection, back or original reservoir preferable. If there is a clog, the water will raise up and go through the overflow tube before anything floods, etc..

It is a conern, on another grow, someone was using this system with 1 1/2" tubes, and the roots clogged em. He said he had like 5 0gallons of water on his floor, and reallllly messed up bad.


This system is basically a slightly upgarded DWC, all the tubs share a watter supply (plus for nurients and ph), and the added circulation helps with aeration. I'd expect it to operate on par with DWC, but its more expandable/better for larger scale.


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## sherriberry (Jan 31, 2010)

yeah, to each their own i guess...

i found an awesome deal at a local shop that has 1" bulkhead fittings with the hose adapter built on, all in one piece, and they are 2 bucks.

so, i run 2 of those side by side, so if one clogs, im still safe.

again, if both do clog in mine tho, its fine because i have the water spliting and going both ways coming out of the pump straight to a T, and putting the pump in the middle tub.

i get plenty of flow because i use a 1600gph pump, so its 800gph each way.

If i wanted, i could put 2 pumps in there, and get the full 1600gph coming back each way, but the T is the key to solving ALL flodding problems... gravity makes it impossible for it to flood at that point bc water will always take path of least resistance.

Anyway, that vertical grow makes me feel like a hero farmer 

heaths is way better if you havent checked it out

"heath vertical tube" will get you there in the search on this forum.

What i plan to do should make heaths look silly if all goes well.


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## sherriberry (Jan 31, 2010)

the solution weve all been waiting for...

saw these tonight at home depot, they will work, i will cut holes in the top and bottoms of them and just stack them 4 high, plus set them on some sort of platform so that gravity brings the water down.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xr5/R-100669782/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053


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## sherriberry (Jan 31, 2010)

part of the lid is a diagonal flap, and in this flap you could center one plant site, or have 2, one on each side of the flap.

i would probably do 2.

Then the flat top of the lid is the same size as the base of another chmaber... here i would cut nearly the entire bottom out, and the almost the entire top of the lid off... so the chambers would be open from one to another.

I already looked to see how the water would fall down, and if there would be any drips... there wont be, everything goes downhill back into the bucket, the things are perfect for our task.

some waterproof sealing tap would add comfort to the whole thing to keep any light out to keep algea bloom from occuring.

i would configure these in a setup similar to this pic, stacked 4 or 5 high...


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## sherriberry (Jan 31, 2010)

this site looks promising too...

http://www.plasticstorage.com/subcategories.asp?cat=1


edit:

browsed for a while, these are best bang for buck ive found so far...

only downside is, they dont have a lid, so youd still have to fabricate some sort of a lid on the hopper opening

http://www.simplastics.com/items.asp?subcat=3


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## sherriberry (Jan 31, 2010)

i got another simple eureaka a minute ago...

not a huge thing, but new none the less...

k, so back to the vertical stackable tubs i linked above...

instead of sticking them on a stand so that they will gravity feed drain back to the res... thats wasted area...

so instead, it just dawned on me to use both of my techniques in one...

so if there are 5 levels of tubs lets say...

the top 4 levels are strictly aero.

The bottom layer of tubs, you connect them all from side to side with (2x) 1" hose bulkhead fittings, and just link them all together in a circle. You put a main res behind one of them.

you keep the water circulating, and you check the water at the main res and make sure its to spec on ph, etc.

so, the botoom layer ot tubs would have a coupel inches of dwc in them, and the top portion aero.

Cool thing is... this gives a real time, same nute, same strain comparison to aero vs dwc, so we can figure this out once and for all 

if the dwc even comes close to doing as well as the aero does, trust me...

i will be creating a waterfalling vertical dwc bucket system... probably using the same buckets


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## sherriberry (Jan 31, 2010)

the reason why a person has to have the dwc is to absorb the leftover mist that drips down from the top tubs... because if you dont, you are gonna have some shitty water laying in your bottom tubs... unless you put them up on stands and put drains on them... but then you just lost plant growing area

we are going to be plant growing gods before this is all said and done


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## squarepush3r (Jan 31, 2010)

nice finds and updates Sherriberry


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## NewGrowth (Feb 1, 2010)

Hey sherri, I posted this on the other thread because I thought it was yours . . . sorry but here yah go again:
Hey sherri, good to see you have a thread on all these ideas. I've built my own custom vertical aero system myself. If you want to check it out feel free I've got pictures here . . .https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/187629-origami-hijack-plus-six-15.html#post3698929

If you are looking for a cycle timer to run your sprayers I use the CAP brand ART-DNe (google that and tons will come up) adjustable cycle timer they go for about $80 and are fully adjustable both on and off time as well as a photocell. If you want to go cheaper you could get one of their non-adjustable timers as well.

Good luck sherri, keep us updated . . .


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## sherriberry (Feb 1, 2010)

i use the cap's now.

true hp aero uses so much pressure that when injected into a chamber, you only need to spray for literally 1 second.

this mist created kind of floats around like a fog, and lands on roots, and absorbed instantly.

it is sprayed every min or 2

it can only be done with high pressure

this takes a special timer obviously


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## andyman (Feb 19, 2010)

just subscribing


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## repvip (Feb 19, 2010)

andyman said:


> just subscribing


oh the andyman can!!!

Nice to see you bro!!

My andyman relay timer is still going strong, by the way, much thanks.


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## sherriberry (Feb 19, 2010)

repvip said:


> oh the andyman can!!!
> 
> Nice to see you bro!!
> 
> My andyman relay timer is still going strong, by the way, much thanks.


timer? you got my attention

at the moment im over at the hp plug play aero thread trying to pick those guys brains


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## dirrtyd (Feb 19, 2010)

andyman said:


> just subscribing


 Andyman has a relay for the timer to run more pumps. He is the man nice seeing you around again Andyman. Hope that helps you Sherry


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## repvip (Feb 20, 2010)

The Cap timers are expensive, and somewhat low amperage rating. If you want to run more amperage without worrying about burning up your timer--you guess it--a relay works here too. It trips power from another source (another outlet) so pretty simple but a great idea..

The plans and idea came up in stinkbuds harvest a pound every 3 week thread. But good luck finding them  It's not difficult at all. I wasn't sure at first, but now I use relays all the time. I just got one and played withit to figure out how it worked...

It's a 120v coil which connects a 120v circuit.. you can get 12v coils for 120v circuits and all sorts of things--you probably know more about them than I do at this point


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## midwestfunkmaster (Dec 21, 2010)

bookmarked...

curious as to how this went.


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## ddayvault (Jan 1, 2011)

uhh wow!lol


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