# the issue with Lucas formula



## DrGhard (Sep 4, 2017)

While I find the Lucas formula good for sativa-dominant plants (ie fast growers and heavy feeders), when using it with light feeders plants (either whole breeds or particular individuals of a breed) it walways ends up in nitrogen deficiency. This becomes particularly evident when using high intensity lights with UV component such as COB LEDs

I believe this happens because the 5ml micro/10ml bloom (per gal) formula supposedly to be used in veg is too strong for certain strains at the earlier stages of growth. however the N in diluted formulations (1/4 and 1/2 strenght) is not enough to sustain balanced growth.

so my suggestion for early veg stages of light feeder plants is to switch to the 3 part formula. all the times, adding back "grow" fixed all the issues for me


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## JDMase (Sep 4, 2017)

I use floranova bloom and followed the lucas formula, I also bought the veg for when N looked deficient and that also remedied the loss of N found in veg for me with some strains. Usually only fed with it for a few feeds and then switched back when the plant looked healthy again.


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## rkymtnman (Sep 4, 2017)

DrGhard said:


> 5ml micro/10ml bloom (per gal) formula supposedly to be used in veg


incorrect. 5/10 is for low light situations. fluoros etc.

8/16 is Lucas


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## DrGhard (Sep 4, 2017)

rkymtnman said:


> incorrect. 5/10 is for low light situations. fluoros etc.
> 
> 8/16 is Lucas


yes, but also is suggested to use this formulation in veg. still the issue remains: for light feeders will cause nutrient stress, and at the same time fail to provide enough nitrogen.


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## SwitchHitter (Sep 4, 2017)

The problem with this solution is simplicity. Simple in = Simple out 

It's the difference of quality that matters. Not the 5% of your profits in cost. Such a strange thing, to not use a nutrient that a company developed for specific purposes. Like people not using additives because they never know how to adjust base to accomodate. base nutrient grows make for weak smokes


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## rkymtnman (Sep 5, 2017)

DrGhard said:


> yes, but also is suggested to use this formulation in veg


by whom? Lucas is 8/16 for veg and bloom


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## rkymtnman (Sep 5, 2017)

you can also use maxibloom, floranova bloom and floraduo all in the Lucas formula. 

i'm using maxibloom as we speak. no nute stress and no deficiencies.


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## DrGhard (Sep 5, 2017)

rkymtnman said:


> you can also use maxibloom, floranova bloom and floraduo all in the Lucas formula.
> 
> i'm using maxibloom as we speak. no nute stress and no deficiencies.


yes but that would defeat the purpose of Lucas formula isn't it? 

one could just use the normal GH 3 parts and have the same (no nute stress and no nute deficiencies) hehe

PS: also the FloraNova contain organics iirc. not a very good choice for DWC when you have temp issues like i do


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## rkymtnman (Sep 5, 2017)

DrGhard said:


> yes but that would defeat the purpose of Lucas formula isn't it?
> 
> one could just use the normal GH 3 parts and have the same (no nute stress and no nute deficiencies) hehe
> 
> PS: also the FloraNova contain organics iirc. not a very good choice for DWC when you have temp issues like i do


how so? lucas is just a n p k ca mg ratio for cannabis. you can even use other brands to get the same ratios.

i'm using the maxibloom this run for that reason: i'm trying some GH waterfarms and didn't want to use floranova cause of the organic aspect. some HTH pool shock too to prevent root rot. 

and if you look at the GH feed chart for the 3 part, late bloom is lucas. 7.5 micro, 15 bloom if i remember, no grow.


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## be4meliz (Sep 5, 2017)

I use Gh 3 [email protected] 3/4 strength until 1/2 way into veg.(plants 1 1/2-2 ft,) then switch to Lucas after res. change thru flower and adjust based on EC/PPm -some feed more than others, so 5/10,6/12,8/16. Have never had burn or defencicies in 2 years.


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## Airwalker16 (Sep 5, 2017)

this has treated me so well in rdwc. I follow it to a tee.


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## DrGhard (Sep 5, 2017)

Airwalker16 said:


> View attachment 4005403 this has treated me so well in rdwc. I follow it to a tee.


yes, same here. just gave a try to the lucas for a couple of growths because i ended up without floraGro hehe

in the end as @rkymtnman says is all about finding the optimal NPK ratio, and i feel that Lucas alone does not cut it, even as "entry level" formulation that supposedly is easier to use.

i find it easier to just adjust npk and ppm on the go than dealing with the issues of lucas. in the end you just need basic math capabilities


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## rkymtnman (Sep 5, 2017)

DrGhard said:


> yes, same here. just gave a try to the lucas for a couple of growths because i ended up without floraGro hehe
> 
> in the end as @rkymtnman says is all about finding the optimal NPK ratio, and i feel that Lucas alone does not cut it, even as "entry level" formulation that supposedly is easier to use.
> 
> i find it easier to just adjust npk and ppm on the go than dealing with the issues of lucas. in the end you just need basic math capabilities


what i like about it is that i grow different strains each grow. it gets me close enough where all of them are healthy. but if i had a certain strain that i grew all the time, i would definitely want to dial in my nutes for that particualar strain.


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## HydroRed (Oct 9, 2017)

DrGhard said:


> yes but that would defeat the purpose of Lucas formula isn't it?
> 
> one could just use the normal GH 3 parts and have the same (no nute stress and no nute deficiencies) hehe
> 
> PS: also the FloraNova contain organics iirc. not a very good choice for DWC when you have temp issues like i do


I heard the same about the organics (and its thick as shit too), but wasn't able to find anything concrete either way. I used it in a flood and drain with a 27 gal res with no chiller & no issues. I also added H2o2 so if there are some organics in it I killed those shits off real quick. Cant say I'd use it in an emitter or drip system though. If you do find yourself able to run it, Im sure you wont find any N shortages during flower. That shit is potent.


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## ChaosHunter (Oct 10, 2017)

I've been a big Lucas/KISS Maxibloom grower for a long time, often putting full sample lines up to it. Mega Crop by Green leaf nutrients is blowing the lucas/Maxi out of the water so far in every aspect and its canna specific. I think once grower get this in there hands it will become the new standard over the Lucas/KISS.

With most nutrient lines they are not canna specific as mentioned above.


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## DrGhard (Oct 10, 2017)

ChaosHunter said:


> I've been a big Lucas/KISS Maxibloom grower for a long time, often putting full sample lines up to it. Mega Crop by Green leaf nutrients is blowing the lucas/Maxi out of the water so far in every aspect and its canna specific. I think once grower get this in there hands it will become the new standard over the Lucas/KISS.
> 
> With most nutrient lines they are not canna specific as mentioned above.


this sounds interesting but again it contains kelp extracts and chitosan-like components. whole those are great for plant growth stimulation, being organic compounds they can trigger harmful bacterial growth if temps go out of control


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## theinhibitor (Oct 16, 2017)

I find most people over feed. To the moon.

I hover around 180 - 200 ppms in veg, starting with distilled water (steam distilled). For clones, its even less around 100 ppms.

In bloom I hover around 350 - 450. Plants that I find are heavy feeders in hydro, usually produce more resin than crystals and are more suited for outdoor growing (so I pop them into the green house). I actually dont find sativa dominant strains to be heavier feeders. I think it depends on the strain and since basically nothing these days except from landraces found in India/Jamaica/Afghanistan/Thailand/Mexico are hybrids, I would not go by any preconceived notions on feeding before analyzing a few plants.

The pros of low ppms:
1. Your bud smokes better - way better
2. You will produce more crystals (higher THC count)
3. You will have longer flowering periods - look below at 8 weeks, everything still green and vibrant
4. You will win cannabis competitions with ease (2 medals now, won my first in 2013)





 
 


The cons:
1. You may get slightly less heavy buds. Ive only analyzed this a few times, but the outcome with high vs low was like 1.9 lbs to 2lbs same strain, system, etc. And the saved cost of the nutes makes more than up for this.


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## DrGhard (Oct 16, 2017)

theinhibitor said:


> I find most people over feed. To the moon.
> 
> .


This! and the problem of the lucas formula is exactly this. to get enough N for low feeders you have to have insane ppms from the rest of the nutrients.

i must say i was one of those DWC heavy feeders, but i also discovered my EC meter was set with the correction 0.5 scale, instead of 0.7. so when i tried the lucas formula at full strenght i didn't even get close to the 1300 ppm, but around 900. that was because of my meter correction factor.
Without knowing that i was pushing ppms to 1300, which would equal to more than 1500 with a regular meter. needlees to say plants were getting stressed (although i was growing a Sannie's Jack F7, which was an incredible heavy feeder).

now i'm running a white widow in full bloom at 450 ppm. and like yours everything is green at week 6 of flowering. the idea that you need your leaves to yellow in flower is huge BS, and just an indication of stress. around week 5-6, particularly in DWC, plants have a huge drop in nutrient usage, which you can see if you monitor ppm daily.


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## DrGhard (Oct 16, 2017)

theinhibitor said:


> The cons:
> 1. You may get slightly less heavy buds. Ive only analyzed this a few times, but the outcome with high vs low was like 1.9 lbs to 2lbs same strain, system, etc. And the saved cost of the nutes makes more than up for this.



i also disagree with that. a stressed plant grows less, period. so if you overfeed throughout the whole growth cycle you will have less yield most likely


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## ChaosHunter (Oct 16, 2017)

Genetics, light, environment and grower talent all play a key role over nutrients. A good grower can take any nutrient lineup and do well. The plants, different strains and phenos will tell you what they want more than a feed chart or meter. These are weeds that grow wild in a ditch not a Orchid or magical unicorn.


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## theinhibitor (Oct 16, 2017)

ChaosHunter said:


> Genetics, light, environment and grower talent all play a key role over nutrients. A good grower can take any nutrient lineup and do well. The plants, different strains and phenos will tell you what they want more than a feed chart or meter. These are weeds that grow wild in a ditch not a Orchid or magical unicorn.


Of course, everything is strain dependent. Genetics come first.

But Ive never met a strain that needed anything over 600 ppm, or 1.2 ec, especially past the second week of flowering when they stop growth to bud. Every 'deficiency' problem was really a game of ratios.

Some strains Ive noticed need a heavy dose of N into flowering, and will start to wilt/curl/yellow early if they dont get their N in the early bloom period. These are usually termed "heavy feeders", but its really a poor label. They should instead say "heavy N feeders" or "heavy P feeders". At 6 weeks though, you should not be adding anything close to 900 ppm, let alone 1200 ppm. All these bud boosters, etc, are marketing schemes, all you need is a silica supplement, mag-cal supplement, gro, bloom, and something to keep the root zone healthy (BB, root conditioners, etc). You definitely don't need molasses or other crazy ones Ive seen over the years. A small dose of kelp concentrates will give you slightly more aromatics, but I would use it sparingly and add 1/2 to a 1/4 of what is recommended on the label in weeks 5-6 and make sure to flush accordingly.

And growing is half the battle. Other common fails:
1. No end flush in pure water for at least a few days. I myself flush in the res for 4-5 days, then I also cut the main stem and stick the whole plant in a vase for a few hours.
2. Trimming fan leaves before drying. Fan leaves are like shields for your bud, then cover them from UV which degrades THC. They also act as timers - when they become crispy to the touch, that means that the buds have drawn all the sugars from them, and its time to fully trim the plant. If you look to India and other places that have been growing for millenia, you will notice that they keep all leaves on it until the drying is done. There is a reason for it.

EDIT: you can make your own root conditioner using copper sulfate, at around 0.1% volume. Chlorine also works, but Ive never used.


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## Jamie cole (May 4, 2018)

Airwalker16 said:


> View attachment 4005403 this has treated me so well in rdwc. I follow it to a tee.


do you use the flora grow with you rdwc sytem eswell using this schedule ?


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## Airwalker16 (May 8, 2018)

Jamie cole said:


> do you use the flora grow with you rdwc sytem eswell using this schedule ?


Yes sir. It only helps


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## Chunky Stool (May 8, 2018)

ChaosHunter said:


> Genetics, light, environment and grower talent all play a key role over nutrients. A good grower can take any nutrient lineup and do well. The plants, different strains and phenos will tell you what they want more than a feed chart or meter. These are weeds that grow wild in a ditch not a Orchid or magical unicorn.


And this is where organic soil shines -- different strains regulate themselves (to a point). 
It is a common misconception that organic nutrients take months to become available to plants. 
There are some that take a while (like fish bone), but others are fast -- like guano and insect frass.


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## nicksol86 (Jun 29, 2018)

JDMase said:


> I use floranova bloom and followed the lucas formula, I also bought the veg for when N looked deficient and that also remedied the loss of N found in veg for me with some strains. Usually only fed with it for a few feeds and then switched back when the plant looked healthy again.


I did a whole run with Lucas Formula but didn't pull much, the whole grow was a bad environment and set up. I got it fixed now and hoping I do much better this run than 2 ounces per plant like my first run. Lol. It was dank but lacked weight


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## MATTYMATT726 (Jun 29, 2018)

2.5 ml Cal Mag, 6 ml Micro and 9 ml Bloom per gal. of Flora trio in coco under QB leds works perfectly fine. No problems at all. This is H3ads modified Lucas for coco. He uses epsom salt but i already had Cal Mag.


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## Airwalker16 (Jun 29, 2018)

USE THE FUCKIN FLORAGRO YA BASTUHDS!!!


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## JDMase (Jun 30, 2018)

nicksol86 said:


> I did a whole run with Lucas Formula but didn't pull much, the whole grow was a bad environment and set up. I got it fixed now and hoping I do much better this run than 2 ounces per plant like my first run. Lol. It was dank but lacked weight


2 oz is decent considering! I'm wondering what to add to Lucas formula now in flower. All I've added is bennies but I'm considering a pk boost this next run.


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## nicksol86 (Jul 1, 2018)

JDMase said:


> 2 oz is decent considering! I'm wondering what to add to Lucas formula now in flower. All I've added is bennies but I'm considering a pk boost this next run.


Lol you should of seen how big the plants were before we flipped them. They were over 5 feet tall when we flipped them. They should of pulled so much more. But it was in a attic uninsulated at that, middle of winter in upper Michigan. Freezing temps, bone dry humidity. I was lucky to pull 2 ounces honestly. They should of pulled way more though. But this time I got a much better room and setup. My plants are smaller and I should pull more than I did each plant than my first grow


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## JDMase (Jul 1, 2018)

nicksol86 said:


> Lol you should of seen how big the plants were before we flipped them. They were over 5 feet tall when we flipped them. They should of pulled so much more. But it was in a attic uninsulated at that, middle of winter in upper Michigan. Freezing temps, bone dry humidity. I was lucky to pull 2 ounces honestly. They should of pulled way more though. But this time I got a much better room and setup. My plants are smaller and I should pull more than I did each plant than my first grow


Oh jeez really! Well damn, each grow we get better. Learn from the mistakes and all that!


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## OneHitDone (Jul 18, 2018)

SwitchHitter said:


> The problem with this solution is simplicity. Simple in = Simple out
> 
> It's the difference of quality that matters. Not the 5% of your profits in cost. Such a strange thing, to not use a nutrient that a company developed for specific purposes. Like people not using additives because they never know how to adjust base to accomodate. base nutrient grows make for weak smokes


Care to share your nutrient line up?


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## ANC (Jul 18, 2018)

I have a problem also, I use a 1 part organic feed in veg (local product called Nitrosol), It vegges some awesome plants, however when I transition to the flora trio as flowering approaches I get deficiencies of basic shit like nitrogen. It is a shame I am not running a temperature controlled room yet so I can't say outright, but the cheaper nitrogen heavy feed I used the last run, certainly makes larger buds quicker... It could just be the cold though so I will do the next 2 or so runs with it still just to see what it does as it heats up.

I would have thought the plants would have had a harder time on the organic shit, but no, it seems to not get enough food with the chems.


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## Michael Huntherz (Jul 18, 2018)

I have developed my own nutrient program, and it is...sort of fantastic.
The ratio turns out to be from about 4-1-4 to about 2-1-3
After a bit of research, a couple years of winging it and making dumb mistakes, and finally learning to properly calculate elemental ppm and stuff like that, I set up a little program for myself that I am really happy with. I can grow in hydro, coco, soil, rockwool, at 7.0 pH and it costs almost nothing. I use one store-bought bottle, CaliMagic, the rest are dry fertilizers I make stock solutions from. Totally not telling you how to do it, but I might start my own bottled water nutrient line, BWAHAhhahahahahahahaha bwahahahahaha! AN better watch out!

Just kidding, some details are near the end of my signature thread. Here are the basics, ppm measurements from a TDS meter at 500 scale, not elemental ppm. Simply double it for proper microsiemens per cm.

Oasis Hydroponic Feed 16-4-17 by the Jack’s folks. 400ppm
MKP 0-52-34 only during weeks 4-7 at 100-200ppm
MgSO4 for a touch of sulfur, at 50ppm
CaliMagic 1-0-0 as directed on the bottle, about 250ppm
I make separate stock solutions with the Oasis, MKP, and Epsom.

Calimagic goes in the reservoir solution first, then Oasis, MKP, and finally MgSO4.

pH anywhere from 5.8 to 7.2 - I shit you not.

When I start to run out of all of this stuff I will probably buy some Megacrop to try it and compare.

I have five-footers in the flower tent right now growing in soil, coco, and rockwool all on the same reservoir at 7.0pH


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## ANC (Jul 19, 2018)

If you are going to spend money try something like Elite.
Flora trio and mineral salts are for us mere mortals 
I can buy 5 pounds worth of dry ferts for less than $10, it will make thousands of liters of nutes.


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## Michael Huntherz (Jul 19, 2018)

Pruning and cleanup has become a little out of hand because the growth was so ridiculous, looks like lots of hash-making trim will be had, but here’s a shot of the tent.

The little rockwool gal in front wasn’t even rooted when she went in there and has been outpaced, just an experiment using rockwool in blumats, I will let it mature after I take the big tops down at the end of the run. Anyway, the shit works.


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