# what is it that convinces you ?



## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Sep 16, 2011)

what is it that convinces you personaly to believe in the god you believe in , what is the one single thing that confirms in YOUR mind that your god exists and you want to worship him/her/it? .


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## cannabineer (Sep 16, 2011)

In my instance, it is the relentless certainty (the term "faith" is appropriate) that ... I am my meat.
cheers 'neer


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Sep 16, 2011)

cannabineer said:


> In my instance, it is the relentless certainty (the term "faith" is appropriate) that ... I am my meat.
> cheers 'neer


in English ?


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## olylifter420 (Sep 16, 2011)

cause i dont want to be an asshole athesit like you.


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## cannabineer (Sep 16, 2011)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> in English ?


For me it's true in any language.
cheers 'neer


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Sep 16, 2011)

olylifter420 said:


> cause i dont want to be an asshole athesit like you.[/QUOT
> 
> wow such hostility and hatred , is this what religion does to people ? im not an ashole just cause i dont believe what you were taught growing up ................, im a really chill guy .


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Sep 16, 2011)

cannabineer said:


> For me it's true in any language.
> cheers 'neer


still non the wiser ?


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## diesel15 (Sep 16, 2011)

through proof. not in terms of heres proof right here in black n white on paper by scientist -----. but through searchin for proof by myself for myself.. you see God's way is the way to life that'll keep you from violence, and destruction. ''if'' you truly search for him, he'll reveal himself to you. sativa high, your searchin for God's truth whether you know it or not.


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## cannabineer (Sep 16, 2011)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> still non the wiser ?


I posted something meaningful and in good cheer. Both your responses to me seem to convey disrespect. Good luck in your travels.
cheers 'neer


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## Morgan Lynn (Sep 16, 2011)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> what is it that convinces you personaly to believe in the god you believe in , what is the one single thing that confirms in YOUR mind that your god exists and you want to worship him/her/it? .


http://www.400monkeys.com/God/


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## sen.c (Sep 16, 2011)

Morgan, you at it again? Thought you couldn't stand these discussions, see you later I guess.


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## Morgan Lynn (Sep 16, 2011)

Ahhh, yeah, why not.


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Sep 16, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> through proof. not in terms of heres proof right here in black n white on paper by scientist -----. but through searchin for proof by myself for myself.. you see God's way is the way to life that'll keep you from violence, and destruction. ''if'' you truly search for him, he'll reveal himself to you. sativa high, your searchin for God's truth whether you know it or not.



why does your god play silly games ? why do you need to SEARCH for the guy ? why dosent he just reveal himself ? it all seems a bit silly to me , all i ever hear from religious people is 'i can see him ' 'you just need faith ' 'your searching for his love ' .........what a load of bull , is your god some kind of sadistic weirdo who likes to fuck with your mind ? ....................'only you can see god when hes ready to show himself ' ' god works in mysterious ways ' 'your just a human why should god reveal himself to you ' its all nonsense and i cant believe in 2011 theres still people who fall this trickery , according to you your god made us its him who put us here to worship him , yet here i am supposedly having to search for him lol ........................oh and P.S i dont need religion to keep me from violence and destruction , why do people feel they need a god to behave well ? dont you trust yourself ?


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## olylifter420 (Sep 16, 2011)

hostility? are you real?

https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/449547-lets-debate.html

that should be enough for you to know that you are not chill and a cool dude. why is that you are always trying to start shit about religion? You always seem to say, "oh religious nut jobs, why do you shove your shit in our face?" when you are the one always starting shit around here.





ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> olylifter420 said:
> 
> 
> > cause i dont want to be an asshole athesit like you.[/QUOT
> ...


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## Morgan Lynn (Sep 16, 2011)

I went to an event called "Nonbelievers giving aid" it was a fundrasier for Japan after their massive earthquake. I got to meet Richard Dawkins, a world renouned evolutionary biologist and avid atheist. We discussed several topics as a group. The first was, atheist morality and where it comes from. Personally, I have never been raised religious. My parents never talked about Jesus or God. I was born an atheist and stayed an atheist under my own descretion. My morality was learned from my non-religious parents. Personally, I think we would still have morality even if religion was eradicated, not everyone feels thats true and thats ok with me. 

Our second discussion was on eliminating religion or "beating" the religious at their own game. By this time, even though I think Richard is brilliant, they lost me. I don't need to "beat" anyone. I certainly don't want people to feel they can't practice their religion openly and I CERTAINLY do not want prayer or creationism taken out of school. Even though I am a full supporter of evolution, creationism is a huge part of peoples lives and it should be left in schools. Prayer on the other hand is a right. just as I think freedom from religion is a right, praying is a right as well. So, if people are offended at other religions look the other way and mind your own business. 

I can poke fun time to time about religion and I snicker but overall I respect people and their religions. If they want to pray let them pray. If they don't like me because I'm an atheist oh well. Win some you lose some.


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Sep 16, 2011)

Morgan Lynn said:


> I went to an event called "Nonbelievers giving aid" it was a fundrasier for Japan after their massive earthquake. I got to meet Richard Dawkins, a world renouned evolutionary biologist and avid atheist. We discussed several topics as a group. The first was, atheist morality and where it comes from. Personally, I have never been raised religious. My parents never talked about Jesus or God. I was born an atheist and stayed an atheist under my own descretion. My morality was learned from my non-religious parents. Personally, I think we would still have morality even if religion was eradicated, not everyone feels thats true, and thats ok with me.
> 
> the problem with your liberal veiws is that religion indocrinates children ,i would have no problem if religion was left to adults to do in private , but its religious people who pester us in our homes , build there religious buildings ,preach in our streets , threaten us with hell , start wars in the name of there religion .
> there are actualy young children who are frightend by religious nonsense thinking they are being watched and if they do wrong they will burn in hell ...........is this how we want children to feel ? whats wrong with leaving all religion out of our schools ?
> ...


the problem with your liberal veiws is that religion indocrinates children ,i would have no problem if religion was left to adults to do in private , but its religious people who pester us in our homes , build there religious buildings ,preach in our streets , threaten us with hell , start wars in the name of there religion .
there are actualy young children who are frightend by religious nonsense thinking they are being watched and if they do wrong they will burn in hell ...........is this how we want children to feel ? whats wrong with leaving all religion out of our schools ?


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## diesel15 (Sep 16, 2011)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> why does your god play silly games ? why do you need to SEARCH for the guy ? why dosent he just reveal himself ? it all seems a bit silly to me , all i ever hear from religious people is 'i can see him ' 'you just need faith ' 'your searching for his love ' .........what a load of bull , is your god some kind of sadistic weirdo who likes to fuck with your mind ? ....................'only you can see god when hes ready to show himself ' ' god works in mysterious ways ' 'your just a human why should god reveal himself to you ' its all nonsense and i cant believe in 2011 theres still people who fall this trickery , according to you your god made us its him who put us here to worship him , yet here i am supposedly having to search for him lol ........................oh and P.S i dont need religion to keep me from violence and destruction , why do people feel they need a god to behave well ? dont you trust yourself ?


like isaid Gods way is the way to life. Humans have finite minds how can a finite mind understand a infinite mind ?


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## Nusky (Sep 16, 2011)

The more I do psychedelics the more I realize we're all interconnected and that god exists in some form. I took ayahusca and it felt like there was a female god watching my every move. It was a weird feeling, I just felt watched.


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## mindphuk (Sep 16, 2011)

Morgan Lynn said:


> Our second discussion was on eliminating religion or "beating" the religious at their own game. By this time, even though I think Richard is brilliant, they lost me. I don't need to "beat" anyone. I certainly don't want people to feel they can't practice their religion openly and I CERTAINLY do not want prayer or creationism taken out of school. Even though I am a full supporter of evolution, creationism is a huge part of peoples lives and it should be left in schools. Prayer on the other hand is a right. just as I think freedom from religion is a right, praying is a right as well. So, if people are offended at other religions look the other way and mind your own business.


Where do you find creationism in school? Where exactly do we need to leave it? Do you think it should be taught? .... in science class? 

No one has ever said a student cannot pray in school. Do you agree with schools leading students in prayer? Should teachers be allowed to discuss their religion with students to the point of proselytizing? If not, where do you make the cut?


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Sep 16, 2011)

i found religion in school to be very confusing and quite frightning , there i was trying to respect my teachers ,and look upto them , whilst they were teaching me rediculous storys from the bible wich even at 5 years old i could see massive flaws , shouldnt a teacher be there to teach us things that are true and things that will help us in life ? i can remember seriousley doubting anything my teacher had to say , after she forced me to say lords prayer before dinner.


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## Morgan Lynn (Sep 16, 2011)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> the problem with your liberal veiws is that religion indocrinates children ,i would have no problem if religion was left to adults to do in private , but its religious people who pester us in our homes , build there religious buildings ,preach in our streets , threaten us with hell , start wars in the name of there religion .
> there are actualy young children who are frightend by religious nonsense thinking they are being watched and if they do wrong they will burn in hell ...........is this how we want children to feel ? whats wrong with leaving all religion out of our schools ?


Ok, I suposse I failed to mention that schools do not force religion on students. What parents do is what parents do, I can't change that. In some cases religion is extreme and can be considered abusive, in most cases this is not true so it doesn't apply to my post. 

Nothing will ever be taught to children if this big cluster fuck of battles keeps going on. Creationism IS important and it SHOULD be taught. I want my son to be taught creationism, he'll decide for him self if its a crock of shit or not. Keeping creationism away from kids is just as bad as keeping evolution from them.


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Sep 16, 2011)

'gods way is the way to life ' lol another bullshit statement .............................wich god are you talking about ? theres thousands humans have invented


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Sep 16, 2011)

in the uk 99% of schools have some kind of religious backing .


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## Morgan Lynn (Sep 16, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> Where do you find creationism in school? Where exactly do we need to leave it? Do you think it should be taught? .... in science class?
> 
> No one has ever said a student cannot pray in school. Do you agree with schools leading students in prayer? Should teachers be allowed to discuss their religion with students to the point of proselytizing? If not, where do you make the cut?


Creationism can be taught in a Sociology class, Ethnic Diversity class, or World Religions class. Science is science. Creationism does not fall under science. 

When I was in high school we had "moments of silence" where students were allowed to pray. I was simply stating what was discussed at this event I attened. 

No, teachers should keep their religion out of their teaching to prevent any bias against them or students.

Of course there are limitations.


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## Morgan Lynn (Sep 16, 2011)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> i found religion in school to be very confusing and quite frightning , there i was trying to respect my teachers ,and look upto them , whilst they were teaching me rediculous storys from the bible wich even at 5 years old i could see massive flaws , shouldnt a teacher be there to teach us things that are true and things that will help us in life ? i can remember seriousley doubting anything my teacher had to say , after she forced me to say lords prayer before dinner.


 
I know. I had a few teachers who were very religious.


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Sep 16, 2011)

im not trying to start shit olly im merely having a discussion , its you who come in here callling people assholes and getting on your high horse .


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## olylifter420 (Sep 16, 2011)

you know , what i just dont get is that why do people give Christians such a hard time while always siding with muslims and the bullshit they want to do? even atheists' support them, i mean, what is it?

a Christian kid cannot put up a verse from the bible to support their football team, but all these muslims can do their rituals all day long... that is just not fair.



mindphuk said:


> Where do you find creationism in school? Where exactly do we need to leave it? Do you think it should be taught? .... in science class?
> 
> No one has ever said a student cannot pray in school. Do you agree with schools leading students in prayer? Should teachers be allowed to discuss their religion with students to the point of proselytizing? If not, where do you make the cut?


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## sen.c (Sep 16, 2011)

The Sativa High, 

I guess I will go out on a limb here and put some things up that I usually don't. First off I believe God has a plan for everyone's life. With that being said here is my story.

I was raised in Church, simply because my mom was and my parents made me go. I did learn some basic things and was baptised at the age of 9 along with my dad as he 
converted from the Catholic Faith to the Baptist. At 13 my parents divorced after a pretty bad situation brought about by aanother lady in a new church we started going to
even after my dad did not want to make the change. We found out a few years after the divorce that the lady at the church that broke my family up was one of these people 
that go to church pretending to be something they were not and we found out that our family was not the only victim of this coke dealing lesbian. At that point I quit going to 
church and was furious that they would allow this lady to still be an active member of the church after nowing all these things but she was a big contributor so they turned a 
blind eye. I chose to live with my father and my brothers and sister had to go with my mom because they were not old enough to make their own decision.

I became involved in a gang because I felt my Homeboys gave me a sense of family. It wasn't long before I was one of the larer suppliers of coke and crack to the area and with 
that came drive by shootings, assault and you name it. During all of this I knew I was doing wrong but I could not stop, and the thought of My Lord and Saviour stayed in the back
of my mind regardless. I was own my own at sixteen and was hungry and needed shelter so I did what I had to do to get those necessities. Next thing you know I luckily missed a 
30 year federal sentence day for day no early release and watched my buddy go up for the bid. I just happened to not go with him on the trip but sent my 54K with him to take care
of business. Well as soon as he get back the task force was waiting for him behind a snitch. He was charges with aggrivated posession, trafficing, violation of the federal stamp act, 
transporting across every state line crossed in doing so, as well as using the phone line to set up the deal. After that I thought I would chill for a while, but that didn't last long. Next 
thing you know bam I miss another case for murder in a drive by but my other friends went down and are spending 25+ years due to it being gang related activity, once again I was 
supposed to be there but just out of luck my girlfriend at the time just got back from out of town and I decided to stay home with here. After this incident I chilled for a while and next
thing you know I am back at it again and this time almost didn't make it out of a 30 year drug case, luckily they didn't have enough evidence to take me down because they couldn't 
prove anything other that I had bags with me on surveilence but never caught me with the product. What was bad in this deal was if they would have busted me it would have been 
bad for alot of people because I was supplying a bunch of cops juice. At this point I said that is enough the next time I may not be so lucky. I got tired of dragging bottom so I called 
a family member that lived out of town and they said I could come live with them so I did and got back on track got new friends with things going for them and thanked God for bringing 
me through the many things oither than just what was talked about above. There is no doubt that if it weren't for God having a plan for me that I would be a caged animal right
now, and if that were the case I probably would have never gotten out because my mentality and I feel the Lord knew that was the case.

During the middle of all the things that were going on above I lost my dad and really got crazy and at one point I overdosed on blue and clears ( ate 12 ) some guys took me home and dropped me at the door
I couldn't walk and no control of my bowels and vomiting perfusely and my heart was in mega overdrive. My vision was was in and out and I was vomiting blood and I keep seeing a Bible next to the bed 
and had enough energy to litterlly fling my arm over to enough to knock it onto the bed and prayed saying I would read until I felt it was time to stop so I started. As I started reading every chapter that went by I felt 
fuller in a spiritual sense and kept reading next thing you know i felt like it was enough and no joke jumped out of the bed went into the rest room took a leak and when I walked into the kitchen they were actually calling 
the ambulance and were shocked as they hung up the phone. I said whats for dinner and ate a huge plate of rice and gravy stewed pork chops and drank a pile of ice tea and was totaly fine. After that point I knew 
without a doubt what the reason for me still being here was.


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Sep 16, 2011)

@ olly ,i give all religions a hard time equally , its just on here , most people are from america so guess what ? , as they were born on that bit of the planet they are christian <sniggers> im sure if this was mainly an afghan website we would be discussing the flaws in muslims beliefs lol .


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## sen.c (Sep 16, 2011)

> Nothing will ever be taught to children if this big cluster fuck of battles keeps going on. Creationism IS important and it SHOULD be taught. I want my son to be taught creationism, he'll decide for him self if its a crock of shit or not. Keeping creationism away from kids is just as bad as keeping evolution from them.


Nice Morgan, I can dig this.


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## olylifter420 (Sep 16, 2011)

no, i have no high horse, you just cant make a thread like this and expect everyone to play nice with you. I have seen your hatred for religion and disrespect for what people believe in. all you do is try to make people feel ashamed about their beliefs, when all you do is strengthen them. 




ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> im not trying to start shit olly im merely having a discussion , its you who come in here callling people assholes and getting on your high horse .


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## olylifter420 (Sep 16, 2011)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> 'gods way is the way to life ' lol another bullshit statement .............................wich god are you talking about ? theres thousands humans have invented


the god they are talking about is the God that each person respectfully follows and worships, there is not a universal God


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## sen.c (Sep 16, 2011)

> im sure if this was mainly an afghan website we would be discussing the flaws in muslims beliefs lol .


Nope the gastapo would be hunting them down and killing them that is the difference. Being born in the US doesn't have much to do with why people are Christian anymore with all the religions in this now cultural melting pot.
In the US you can be anything you want, the only difference is that you don't suffer prosecution for it here like in other countries.

Here is a link that is very informative on what happens in other countries to Christians, and believe me these muslims will not be happy until this is what happens here in our country.

http://www.persecution.com/


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Sep 16, 2011)

sen.c said:


> Nope the gastapo would be hunting them down and killing them that is the difference. Being born in the US doesn't have much to do with why people are Christian anymore with all the religions in this now cultural melting pot.
> In the US you can be anything you want, the only difference is that you don't suffer prosecution for it here like in other countries.


well actually if your a muslim fighting a holly war against america then you will suffer prosecution , imo america is the least 'free' country out there , one in every ten black americans in prison lol come on mate ? you cant seriousley think you live in a free country ?


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## sen.c (Sep 16, 2011)

> there is not a universal God


Kinda like saying all Soft drinks are Coca-Cola, there is only one Coca-Cola.


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Sep 16, 2011)

so you nuts are now admitting theres more than just your god out there ( totally going against everything your religion teaches ) ?


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (Sep 16, 2011)

What is it that drives you to come out here and ask questions just so you can attack other's beliefs? Is it that bad being in the miniority? Why would anyone even try to have a discussion where all you want to do is prove how stupid and wrong they are? Are you this much fun at parties?


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## fatality (Sep 16, 2011)

Nusky said:


> The more I do psychedelics the more I realize we're all interconnected and that god exists in some form. I took ayahusca and it felt like there was a female god watching my every move. It was a weird feeling, I just felt watched.


 like we are all in our own Truman Show, very fuckin wicked..... that's the thought i have sometimes anyways


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## olylifter420 (Sep 16, 2011)

> one in every ten black americans in prison lol come on mate ? you cant seriousley think you live in a free country ?


what does that have to do with freedom? those people make poor choices in their life and end up in prison, then they complain about the living conditions where they are at... i mean come on, you decided to kill someone, and you still have the audacity to complain about the prison?


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## olylifter420 (Sep 16, 2011)

no, it is totally against what you want asshole! do not complain about name calling when you yourself are name calling asshole...





ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> so you nuts are now admitting theres more than just your god out there ( totally going against everything your religion teaches ) ?


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## sen.c (Sep 16, 2011)

> well actually if your a muslim fighting a holly war against america then you will suffer prosecution , imo america is the least 'free' country out there , one in every ten black americans in prison lol come on mate ? you cant seriousley think you live in a free country ?


Give me a break now you wanna pull the race card. When you grow up living on the system, and your role models are pimps, hustlers, and rappers what do you think will come from it. They are a product of the system they chose to live off of and that is what the government wants. They get a steady paycheck but so does the prision system for housing them, jail is big business.


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## olylifter420 (Sep 16, 2011)

i know, that has got to be the stupidest thing tsh has said so far! saying blacks are the most in prisons... whatever, that depends on the region and demographic of that region tsh...




sen.c said:


> Give me a break now you wanna pull the race card. When you grow up living on the system, and your role models are pimps, hustlers, and rappers what do you think will come from it. They are a product of the system they chose to live off of and that is what the government wants. They get a steady paycheck but so does the prision system for housing them, jail is big business.


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## sen.c (Sep 16, 2011)

> so you nuts are now admitting theres more than just your god out there ( totally going against everything your religion teaches ) ?


There is only one God, in my book I don't know where you pulled ^^^^^^ conclusion from but it is obvious you like to bait these confrontations and I will always be your huckleberry.


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## mindphuk (Sep 16, 2011)

Morgan Lynn said:


> Creationism can be taught in a Sociology class, Ethnic Diversity class, or World Religions class. Science is science. Creationism does not fall under science.


 I think you misunderstand what creationism means in most discussions. Creationism is the doctrine that biblical special creation is what created life and everything on this planet. It is a view about biological life and diversity in opposition to evolution by natural means. Teaching various creation myths in sociology or a class about religions is not creationism. No one has a problem teaching _about_ religion. The supporters of creationism want it taught alongside evolution as part of lessons on biology. 


> No, teachers should keep their religion out of their teaching to prevent any bias against them or students.


Yet those are the things that the religionists are fighting for. They want teachers to have the freedom to discuss their relationship with Jesus in the classroom. These are the fights that Dawkins is referring to. 


> Of course there are limitations.


 And that's all that we want is to keep those limitations strictly defined.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 16, 2011)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> olylifter420 said:
> 
> 
> > cause i dont want to be an asshole athesit like you.[/QUOT
> ...


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## diesel15 (Sep 16, 2011)

Christian God man. no other because only through Christ are your sins forgiven. whats the point of ''right'' and ''wrong '' if God doesn't exist? if God didnt exist you could do whatever, whenever, to whoever and anybody going against that would get killed.


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## grizlbr (Sep 16, 2011)

cannabineer said:


> I posted something meaningful and in good cheer. Both your responses to me seem to convey disrespect. Good luck in your travels.
> cheers 'neer


 Why would I Believe the Family Sized Mason Bible on the living room Table? I read it cover to cover as a child. Wandered off to look for quick sand and got lost on family farm, needed help getting home before dinner. Heard a little voice you need to go this way. So unless Aliens were reading my thoughts and knew where I lived. I was praying while standing there talking to my self? I need help which way do I go? So Who answered a 6 yo lost near Stone Mountain? So when I had a accident on the interstate holding a EMT's wifes kotex to my bleeding head I prayed Lord I cant leave now I have 2 children to take care of. So I am still here Divine intervention at least 3 times. So yes I believe in my God that answers my prayers.


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## mexiblunt (Sep 16, 2011)

Sweet!! testimony time. When I was religious I prayed to god to make me an athiest, he answered my prayers, now I'm confused for life.


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## olylifter420 (Sep 16, 2011)

are you sure you are not gay?





mexiblunt said:


> Sweet!! testimony time. When I was religious I prayed to god to make me an athiest, he answered my prayers, now I'm confused for life.


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## VILEPLUME (Sep 16, 2011)

So many things have convinced me that the bible is historically accurate. I wont go into all of them, but finding the dead sea scrolls was huge, comparing it to the bible books we have today and it being identical 2000 years later is pretty amazing. 

Ok one more, our brains cant comprehend something out of nothing, but originally there had to be nothing...I can only conclude that there is a greater intelligence out there cause we are obviously too dumb that we cant even think about how it started. The rule of matter is that it cannot be created and cannot be destroyed, but it had to have been created at some point...or did it? If you think about it too long though it hurts your brain.

Also one last thing, there are no strings attached to believing in Jesus, you just pray and ask him to be your savior and that is it. Even if you were 99% sure there wasnt a God, why not take that 1% chance and pray to him for 2mins anyways? No one would really know unless you told them lol.


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 16, 2011)

sen.c said:


> The Sativa High,
> 
> I guess I will go out on a limb here and put some things up that I usually don't. First off I believe God has a plan for everyone's life. With that being said here is my story.
> 
> ...


Are you saying that had you gotten caught or convicted of any of the offenses you avoided because you believe God kept you out of trouble, would you still believe it's true? If you were sitting inside a prison cell, right now, would you still believe it?

What would be the purpose of God keeping you from prison?


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

can anyone here show me evidence for there being just ONE god? as opposed to 0,2,3,4, etc. it doesnt have to be YOUR god. just show me that there is one

second part: if you cannot do that, how could you possibly claim that you know which god is correct? how could you possibly know that the god in the bible is the one true god? faith? thats just a guessing game, and if you choose wrong, you could go to hell. so choose wisely lol. the muslims have faith that they are correct, so what makes you more right than them?


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

VILEPLUME said:


> So many things have convinced me that the bible is historically accurate. I wont go into all of them, but finding the dead sea scrolls was huge, comparing it to the bible books we have today and it being identical 2000 years later is pretty amazing.
> 
> Ok one more, our brains cant comprehend something out of nothing, but originally there had to be nothing...I can only conclude that there is a greater intelligence out there cause we are obviously too dumb that we cant even think about how it started. The rule of matter is that it cannot be created and cannot be destroyed, but it had to have been created at some point...or did it? If you think about it too long though it hurts your brain.
> 
> Also one last thing, there are no strings attached to believing in Jesus, you just pray and ask him to be your savior and that is it. Even if you were 99% sure there wasnt a God, why not take that 1% chance and pray to him for 2mins anyways? No one would really know unless you told them lol.


i dont do that because god would know i was faking it just on the off chance he is real


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## olylifter420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Ad hominin

You bring nothing of substance to these threads. All you do is ask questions and if you dont like the answer, you disagree and tell it in a smug fashion.


Tell us something you wholeheartedly believe so we can ask atupid questions like you, then ignore what you say





Luger187 said:


> i dont do that because god would know i was faking it just on the off chance he is real


----------



## cannabineer (Sep 17, 2011)

olylifter420 said:


> Ad hominin
> 
> You bring nothing of substance to these threads. All you do is ask questions and if you dont like the answer, you disagree and tell it in a smug fashion.
> 
> ...


In this instance Vileplume was suggesting Pascal's wager. This fails simple human logic. No god worth a moment of our attention would sit still for someone who was simply covering his options that way. jmo.
cheers 'neer


----------



## cruzer101 (Sep 17, 2011)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> what is it that convinces you personaly to believe in the god you believe in , what is the one single thing that confirms in YOUR mind that your god exists and you want to worship him/her/it? .


What convinces me is proof from at least three different sources. If that's not available then results from my experiences.
I am result orientated, results convince me. I was raised catholic, now I am an atheist.


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

olylifter420 said:


> Ad hominin
> 
> You bring nothing of substance to these threads. All you do is ask questions and if you dont like the answer, you disagree and tell it in a smug fashion.
> 
> ...


and your post added what to the thread?
what i said was a legitimate response. like canabineer said, vileplume was presenting pascals wager as a reason for belief. if god was real and omnipotent, he would know


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> can anyone here show me evidence for there being just ONE god? as opposed to 0,2,3,4, etc. it doesnt have to be YOUR god. just show me that there is one
> 
> second part: if you cannot do that, how could you possibly claim that you know which god is correct? how could you possibly know that the god in the bible is the one true god? faith? thats just a guessing game, and if you choose wrong, you could go to hell. so choose wisely lol. the muslims have faith that they are correct, so what makes you more right than them?


Well the lack of knowledge in science of how the world was created leads me to belief in a greater being. Personally I follow the bible because of the morals it teaches. I'm not sure how much is still true in the bible since it was probably corrupted or someone might have wrote something false in it. 

You want proof? Just google proof of Christianity and you will find several facts that link to historical evidence that is referred to in the bible.


The Muslims believe we go to heaven if we are good so yeah. 
And honestly I don't know where they come up with this other religions go to hell stuff. I mean the only scripture I can find is when Jesus says "the only way to the father is through me." but of course. If he died for our sins then that's exactly true, it doesn't mean that other religions go to hell. We can't judge only god does.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> i dont do that because god would know i was faking it just on the off chance he is real


I think he is saying to just ask for guidance, just ask. You don't have to believe but give it a shot. Because what else do you have to lose? Jesus would know you don't believe in him/god but he would also know you gave religion a chance. That's what he is saying IMO.


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Well the lack of knowledge in science of how the world was created leads me to belief in a greater being.


so because you dont know, it is okay to assume a god created the universe? why make assumptions?
edit: is it okay to assume lightning is thrown down by the thunder god because we dont know what it is? doesnt that sound ridiculous? should i assume the volcano god throws lava out when he is mad at me, just because i dont understand why lava comes out?



> Personally I follow the bible because of the morals it teaches.


there is both good and bad in the bible. choosing to only look at the good does not mean the bible is a good moral teacher.
and why cant you follow the same morals without religion? humans naturally have morals. if that wasnt true, all atheists would be serial killers and rapists. i think you are smart enough to realize stealing, murder, etc. is wrong



> I'm not sure how much is still true in the bible since it was probably corrupted or someone might have wrote something false in it.


yeah thats exactly why you shouldnt rely on it for truth and morals. maybe there was something written in it that was taken out, and maybe you go against that thing every day. how would you know?



> You want proof? Just google proof of Christianity and you will find several facts that link to historical evidence that is referred to in the bible.


i will do that



> The Muslims believe we go to heaven if we are good so yeah.
> And honestly I don't know where they come up with this other religions go to hell stuff. I mean the only scripture I can find is when Jesus says "the only way to the father is through me." but of course. If he died for our sins then that's exactly true, it doesn't mean that other religions go to hell. We can't judge only god does.


if belief that jesus died for our sins and he was the son of god is the only way to get to heaven, how do muslims get in?


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## olylifter420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Problem is heph, you can lead a horse to water, but cant make em drink it. You can tell them where to find it but they wont look.





Hepheastus420 said:


> Well the lack of knowledge in science of how the world was created leads me to belief in a greater being. Personally I follow the bible because of the morals it teaches. I'm not sure how much is still true in the bible since it was probably corrupted or someone might have wrote something false in it.
> 
> You want proof? Just google proof of Christianity and you will find several facts that link to historical evidence that is referred to in the bible.
> 
> ...


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I think he is saying to just ask for guidance, just ask.


if i asked god something, the answers would come from my own brain anyways. so i dont see a reason



> You don't have to believe but give it a shot.


why? on the off chance i give it a shot and start believing it? no thanks



> Because what else do you have to lose?


my dignity, self respect, my time, my energy, and my free will



> Jesus would know you don't believe in him/god but he would also know you gave religion a chance. That's what he is saying IMO.


why on earth would i give religion a chance? there is absolutely no reason to believe in it, other than a false feeling of satisfaction.


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## mexiblunt (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Well the lack of knowledge in science of how the world was created leads me to belief in a greater being. Personally I follow the bible because of the morals it teaches. I'm not sure how much is still true in the bible since it was probably corrupted or someone might have wrote something false in it.
> 
> You want proof? Just google proof of Christianity and you will find several facts that link to historical evidence that is referred to in the bible.
> 
> ...


Doesn't scripture say something about false idols? I watched this movie called spiderman, and in it is the city of New York, is that proof that spiderman is real?


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> so because you dont know, it is okay to assume a god created the universe? why make assumptions?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why make assumptions? Because god is the only other being I can believe in to make such intelligent designs. The big bang is impossible IMO so how can I believe that? Can you prove the big bang to me?

Humans do not have natural morals check out the feral child. 


My point on how some of the people writing in it could be lying was to say that I believe in god but not really them. But fair enough response from you on that subject.


Tell me what you think of this evidence.


Jesus died for all of our sins so I believe that Jesus died for everyone's sins including Muslims. That passage never says that if you don't believe in him you go to hell. What that passage says is thanks to Jesus' sacrifice we have the option to be with god.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

mexiblunt said:


> Doesn't scripture say something about false idols? I watched this movie called spiderman, and in it is the city of New York, is that proof that spiderman is real?


No and that is a horrible argument BTW. There is proof of a great flood like it says in the bible (noahs ark) there is tombs of the people talked about in the bible, there's more proof too, I encourage you to go google them yourself.

And yes the false preachers are the people that tell you that something is right by twisting the scriptures (extremists).


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> if i asked god something, the answers would come from my own brain anyways. so i dont see a reason
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't tell me tell vileplum. If you don't want to believe that's fine with me. The bible tells us to try and help people find the truth and if they don't want to hear it then dust off your feet and move on. So pretty much it's like alright, your loss.


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## mexiblunt (Sep 17, 2011)

Who said jesus died for all our sins? Was is god? was it one of these people who wrote in the bible? How do you pick which person writing in it could be lying, or mis-understanding?


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

mexiblunt said:


> Who said jesus died for all our sins? Was is god? was it one of these people who wrote in the bible? How do you pick which person writing in it could be lying, or mis-understanding?


I can't and never said I could, hence the whole faith thing.


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 17, 2011)

olylifter420 said:


> Problem is heph, you can lead a horse to water, but cant make em drink it. You can tell them where to find it but they wont look.


OK banana man...


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

olylifter420 said:


> Problem is heph, you can lead a horse to water, but cant make em drink it. You can tell them where to find it but they wont look.


I know but Luger is asking some questions so I'm gonna answer them. But then again we are just gonna go in circles over and over, ha. You wanna join the debate? The doors open.


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## silasraven (Sep 17, 2011)

the fact that we have a planter that grows and buds and is the most lovly thing ever. breathing


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Why make assumptions? Because god is the only other being I can believe in to make such intelligent designs. The big bang is impossible IMO so how can I believe that? Can you prove the big bang to me?


why do you assume a being created it? why do you assume this being would care about you personally with the MASSIVE size of the universe? even if you just look at the number of people on earth, its a stretch to say god is looking over every single one and changing events as he see fit.
why do you think the big bang is _impossible_? what do you have to refute all the evidence for the big bang? what is your theory about how the universe was created, and what evidence do you have to back up your claims?
nothing in science can be 'proven'. you can just lower the chance of it being wrong by doing experiments and evidence. we have a lot of evidence for an expanding universe.



> Humans do no have natural morals check out the feral child.


wasnt he raised by wolves or something? you know life experiences can change those morals, right? some people think killing is okay because of events in their life or a brain malfunction.




> My point on how some of the people writing in it could be lying was to say that I believe in god but not really them. But fair enough response from you on that subject.


you can believe in god without the bible



> Tell me what you think of this evidence.


will do



> Jesus died for all of our sins so I believe that Jesus died for everyone's sins including Muslims. That passage never says that if you don't believe in him you go to hell. What that passage says is thanks to Jesus' sacrifice we have the option be with god.


what are the rules of going to heaven then?


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## silasraven (Sep 17, 2011)

belief that jesus died on the cross for your fuck ups that is it nothing else. one divie here onj earth omes and sayjust blieve tat ill save you from DEATH from a gun shot. physical is not the only thing in life or death.


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## olylifter420 (Sep 17, 2011)

NO, thank you. I dont like luger and his stupid questions and never answering questions we ask, that is pure douchbaggery! he is a mr. knowitall... never finds anything good in anyone's responses who are not atheists and then all he does is mock believers with all his dumbass questions and arguments of ingnorance




Hepheastus420 said:


> I know but Luger is asking some questions so I'm gonna answer them. But then again we are just gonna go in circles over and over, ha. You wanna join the debate? The doors open.


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 17, 2011)

to me i dont feel anyone who has stayed on one side of the debate can give me an answer to anything. the only difference between believer and non-believers is that at one point a decent amount of non's were believers at one point in their life. i can voice my opinion and all of you can aswell but all of us live in the land of i dont know with the topic of god. to me the christian god...which to me havin more than one god is a clear sign that somethin isnt right...acts too off for a god. loving and just got, but slaughters innocent children, gets jealous if you dont serve him, only talks to certain ppl. like if he was all powerful and he had some shit to say to the masses i would think he could come down here or make it so everyone would hear it. him bein jealous? that a human trait so why would a god have that


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> No and that is a horrible argument BTW. There is proof of a great flood like it says in the bible (noahs ark)


what evidence?
these videos are really funny and refute the argument for noahs ark. please watch. i know theyre kind of long, but theres a lot of stuff to be said haha. in the info, he said he cut it down from like 35 minutes lol
[video=youtube;j_BzWUuZN5w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_BzWUuZN5w[/video]
[video=youtube;XLr5vl-n0Bo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLr5vl-n0Bo&feature=relmfu[/video]




> there is tombs of the people talked about in the bible, there's more proof too, I encourage you to go google them yourself.


ok id like to say this. just because there are things in the bible that are true does not mean the conclusion that god is real is true. because people in the bible really existed doesnt mean they are prophets or really saw an action done by god. they were humans just like us, and can easily be tricked, even by their own brains. maybe they just didnt understand what was really happening because they had the education of todays preschoolers.
just a thought, not tryin to start another argument 



> And yes the false preachers are the people that tell you that something is right by twisting the scriptures (extremists).


how do you know who is right and who is wrong? who has the correct interpretation? its quite possible that the 'extremists' have the correct interpretation and you do not.



Hepheastus420 said:


> Don't tell me tell vileplum. If you don't want to believe that's fine with me. The bible tells us to try and help people find the truth and if they don't want to hear it then dust off your feet and move on. So pretty much it's like alright, your loss.


too bad, so sad


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> why do you assume a being created it? why do you assume this being would care about you personally with the MASSIVE size of the universe? even if you just look at the number of people on earth, its a stretch to say god is looking over every single one and changing events as he see fit.
> why do you think the big bang is _impossible_? what do you have to refute all the evidence for the big bang? what is your theory about how the universe was created, and what evidence do you have to back up your claims?
> nothing in science can be 'proven'. you can just lower the chance of it being wrong by doing experiments and evidence. we have a lot of evidence for an expanding universe.
> 
> ...


Well because nobody can disprove god and anybody can disprove any theory. I didn't say god is watching over each individual all the time. It's up to us if we want to follow him not the other way around. Why are you still asking the same question for proof? I already said google it yourself and you said "will do" so I'm gonna start ignoring that one. (remember I'm not gonna answer pointless question, no fighting).

You can't just throw off the feral child. He is a great example of how humans have no natural morals. And that's true even you are saying it you just don't see how you are contradicting yourself. You said humans have NATURAL morals and then say that society is the main impact on our morals. Well that's exactly the case withreligion too, it teaches us our morals just like society teaches you your morals.


Yes I suppose I can but like I stated earlier I follow the bible because of it's morals.

Did you research the evidence yet? Tell me what you think about it if you have.

Well we are to "bare good fruits" which means just have a positive impact on the world and people on a day to day basis and hopefully god will let you into heaven.


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## indipow82 (Sep 17, 2011)

I am still curious at to WHY we have these discussions on a MARIJUANA GROWING FORUM???? ANYONE???? Really, just stupid. People must be bored to all lengths to argue religion rather than talk about what we signed up to this website for. What a fucking joke! Here is a thought, get this shit off the website so we can have discussions about what this site was intended for.... MARIJUANA MARIJUANA MARIJUANA. Nothing worse than a bunch of bible thumpers and anti-thumpers arguing about is there a G-d or not. Seriously this site needs to be redone WITHOUT shit pertaining to what we ROLL UP.


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## olylifter420 (Sep 17, 2011)

> in the info, he said he cut it down from like 35 minutes lol


[video=youtube;RFZrzg62Zj0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0[/video]


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

blazinkill504 said:


> to me i dont feel anyone who has stayed on one side of the debate can give me an answer to anything. the only difference between believer and non-believers is that at one point a decent amount of non's were believers at one point in their life. i can voice my opinion and all of you can aswell but all of us live in the land of i dont know with the topic of god. to me the christian god...which to me havin more than one god is a clear sign that somethin isnt right...acts too off for a god. loving and just got, but slaughters innocent children, gets jealous if you dont serve him, only talks to certain ppl. like if he was all powerful and he had some shit to say to the masses i would think he could come down here or make it so everyone would hear it. him bein jealous? that a human trait so why would a god have that


Oh I guess I missed the part where god showed himself and slaughtered a child.


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## olylifter420 (Sep 17, 2011)

this is a sub forum of a marijuana forum.. The sub forum name says it all...





indipow82 said:


> I am still curious at to WHY we have these discussions on a MARIJUANA GROWING FORUM???? ANYONE???? Really, just stupid. People must be bored to all lengths to argue religion rather than talk about what we signed up to this website for. What a fucking joke! Here is a thought, get this shit off the website so we can have discussions about what this site was intended for.... MARIJUANA MARIJUANA MARIJUANA. Nothing worse than a bunch of bible thumpers and anti-thumpers arguing about is there a G-d or not. Seriously this site needs to be redone WITHOUT shit pertaining to what we ROLL UP.


----------



## blazinkill504 (Sep 17, 2011)

and as far as the story of noah......if you believe this dude built a arc to hold the billions of animals on earth all by himself and he did all this at a crisp 600. if you really believe that i feel sorry for ya cause that shits just stupid. oh noah died 950....smh


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## indipow82 (Sep 17, 2011)

olylifter420 said:


> this is a sub forum of a marijuana forum.. The sub forum name says it all...


Still has NOTHING TO DO with what this site ins intended for..


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 17, 2011)

olylifter420 said:


> NO, thank you. I dont like luger and his stupid questions and never answering questions we ask, that is pure douchbaggery! he is a mr. knowitall... never finds anything good in anyone's responses who are not atheists and then all he does is mock believers with all his dumbass questions and arguments of ingnorance


Can't you control yourself? Do you realize the more you post things like this the worse you look, the worse the position you hold looks? It shows people on the outside how well your religion, your unsubstantiated belief in an imaginary friend, has sculpted your morals. You show your true colors. Why would anyone of us respect that?

It's not about questions, it's not about answers.. It's about you being a complete asshole. If this was real life, you'd have left the circle long ago humiliated because you can't back anything you say up. 

Don't participate in the threads if this is the only kind of posts you're going to make.


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Oh I guess I missed the part where god showed himself and slaughtered a child.


king james bible exodus 12:29

"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle."


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## bigbillyrocka (Sep 17, 2011)

now im not trying to pick a fight with all or anyone at that BUT, why dont you go post somewhere else? cmon sativa, youre just trying to open a can of worms here. trolling if you will. go find a "god" site to question the believers on. i do not believe in god myself, but im not asking on many different posts/threads to try and convince me otherwise. Im sure theres hundreds like me that feel the same way. lets keep it green man.


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## cannabineer (Sep 17, 2011)

indipow82 said:


> I am still curious at to WHY we have these discussions on a MARIJUANA GROWING FORUM???? ANYONE???? Really, just stupid. People must be bored to all lengths to argue religion rather than talk about what we signed up to this website for. What a fucking joke! Here is a thought, get this shit off the website so we can have discussions about what this site was intended for.... MARIJUANA MARIJUANA MARIJUANA. Nothing worse than a bunch of bible thumpers and anti-thumpers arguing about is there a G-d or not. Seriously this site needs to be redone WITHOUT shit pertaining to what we ROLL UP.


 
I will hazard an opinion: What you are seeing is a sort of natural selection in action. There is something about kind herb that draws my mind into thinking about the big questions, and none come bigger than our place in and meaning for life, the universe and everything. It is genuinely fun for the regulars here to bandy this about. Those who are too serious don't last ... except for some magnificently persistent exceptions. The rest of us are indulging in a more articulate, patterned, impassioned way of saying " ..... wwhuuuh ...".
cheers 'neer


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## mexiblunt (Sep 17, 2011)

indipow82 said:


> I am still curious at to WHY we have these discussions on a MARIJUANA GROWING FORUM???? ANYONE???? Really, just stupid. People must be bored to all lengths to argue religion rather than talk about what we signed up to this website for. What a fucking joke! Here is a thought, get this shit off the website so we can have discussions about what this site was intended for.... MARIJUANA MARIJUANA MARIJUANA. Nothing worse than a bunch of bible thumpers and anti-thumpers arguing about is there a G-d or not. Seriously this site needs to be redone WITHOUT shit pertaining to what we ROLL UP.


the forums all have titles to hint at what is inside. Your saying because this sub-forum exists on rollit up that all the ones about growing are ineffective?


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## indipow82 (Sep 17, 2011)

olylifter420 said:


> this is a sub forum of a marijuana forum.. The sub forum name says it all...


Spirituality & Sexuality & Philosophy
Discuss marijuana in all forms of life, sexuality, religion, and spiritual practice

And where is the conversation of POT in all of this??? Not anywhere is it?? To much brew ha about religion itself, nothing on how it is involved or anything else huh!


----------



## blazinkill504 (Sep 17, 2011)

indipow82 said:


> I am still curious at to WHY we have these discussions on a MARIJUANA GROWING FORUM???? ANYONE???? Really, just stupid. People must be bored to all lengths to argue religion rather than talk about what we signed up to this website for. What a fucking joke! Here is a thought, get this shit off the website so we can have discussions about what this site was intended for.... MARIJUANA MARIJUANA MARIJUANA. Nothing worse than a bunch of bible thumpers and anti-thumpers arguing about is there a G-d or not. Seriously this site needs to be redone WITHOUT shit pertaining to what we ROLL UP.


nothin like a jackass who thinks its any better to come to a area of the forums that is intended to talk about other things and bitch about ppl not talkin about weed. you wanna talk about that click on the topics. im high and im talkin about this shit there is the connection.


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 17, 2011)

indipow82 said:


> I am still curious at to WHY we have these discussions on a MARIJUANA GROWING FORUM???? ANYONE???? Really, just stupid. People must be bored to all lengths to argue religion rather than talk about what we signed up to this website for. What a fucking joke! Here is a thought, get this shit off the website so we can have discussions about what this site was intended for.... MARIJUANA MARIJUANA MARIJUANA. Nothing worse than a bunch of bible thumpers and anti-thumpers arguing about is there a G-d or not. Seriously this site needs to be redone WITHOUT shit pertaining to what we ROLL UP.


You did see the huge sign on the front door that read "SPIRITUALITY & SEXUALITY & PHILOSOPHY" right?

What's next, are you gonna go into a supermarket and bitch about all the food they have?

...


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## indipow82 (Sep 17, 2011)

mexiblunt said:


> the forums all have titles to hint at what is inside. Your saying because this sub-forum exists on rollit up that all the ones about growing are ineffective?


This is a growing forum, not argue your beliefs forum.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> what evidence?
> these videos are really funny and refute the argument for noahs ark. please watch. i know theyre kind of long, but theres a lot of stuff to be said haha. in the info, he said he cut it down from like 35 minutes lol
> [video=youtube;j_BzWUuZN5w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_BzWUuZN5w[/video]
> [video=youtube;XLr5vl-n0Bo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLr5vl-n0Bo&feature=relmfu[/video]
> ...


My iPod doesn't let me see videos.

Maybe but what about Jesus' miracles? 

No the bible says "thou shalt not kill" so that automatically rejects the extremists POV of right. Saying you should not kill is pretty clear to me so they would have to twist the scriptures in order to justify their killings. You already knew this answer so why ask? (not fighting, alright in tired of saying that. Let me make this clear I may be a smartass I may call you out on things, but I want you to understand I'm not fighting, ha).

Yes yes too bad so sad.


----------



## indipow82 (Sep 17, 2011)

Padawanbater2 said:


> You did see the huge sign on the front door that read "SPIRITUALITY & SEXUALITY & PHILOSOPHY" right?
> 
> What's next, are you gonna go into a supermarket and bitch about all the food they have?
> 
> ...


And how it invloves marijuana jackass. Read the sub forum better than a third grader.


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## indipow82 (Sep 17, 2011)

Discuss marijuana in all forms of life, sexuality, religion, and spiritual practice. Not one of you is doing this, just bullshit really.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

indipow82 said:


> Still has NOTHING TO DO with what this site ins intended for..


This is a religious subforum and it's intent was to be used for religious and sexual discussions. So that is what we use it for. .


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 17, 2011)

indipow82 said:


> Discuss marijuana in all forms of life, sexuality, religion, and spiritual practice. Not one of you is doing this, just bullshit really.


we all high talkin bout different shit. i dont see you talkin bout anything thats suppose to be talked about in here so take your own advice and bring yo ass on somewhere


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 17, 2011)

indipow82 said:


> And how it invloves marijuana jackass. Read the sub forum better than a third grader.


Gtfo, problem solved?


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## indipow82 (Sep 17, 2011)

blazinkill504 said:


> we all high talkin bout different shit. i dont see you talkin bout anything thats suppose to be talked about in here so take your own advice and bring yo ass on somewhere


Sure thing. I brought my ass by here! Hello


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

indipow82 said:


> Spirituality & Sexuality & Philosophy
> Discuss marijuana in all forms of life, sexuality, religion, and spiritual practice
> 
> And where is the conversation of POT in all of this??? Not anywhere is it?? To much brew ha about religion itself, nothing on how it is involved or anything else huh!


Ahh I see your point. Hmm god created weed, there now we can argue that god is real or not.


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## indipow82 (Sep 17, 2011)

Lets try talking about how marijuana is involved in all of these things rather than argue about who is right or fucking wrong. That is what the forum should be about. Not a bunch of dumb crap you all keep spitting about.


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## indipow82 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Ahh I see your point. Hmm god created weed, there now we can argue that god is real or not.


LMAO I like your style!


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

I'm gonna leave before more fighting shit goes down, hey Luger we shall continue this debate another time (soon, when everyone chills out).


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Well because nobody can disprove god and anybody can disprove any theory. I didn't say god is watching over each individual all the time. It's up to us if we want to follow him not the other way around.


if he isnt watching us, then he doesnt give a shit whether we believe in him or not.



> Why are you still asking the same question for proof? I already said google it yourself and you said "will do" so I'm gonna start ignoring that one. (remember I'm not gonna answer pointless question, no fighting).


wow seriously? you said the big bang was impossible, so i asked why. you must have a reason for why you dont believe in it, in the face of all that evidence. and if you have a reason, i asked for the evidence you have that refutes all that evidence. seems you just dont want to answer it. im just trying to understand how you see things. 
and yes you can disprove a theory lol



> You can't just throw off the feral child. He is a great example of how humans have no natural morals. And that's true even you are saying it you just don't see how you are contradicting yourself. You said humans have NATURAL morals and then say that society is the main impact on our morals.


humans have natural morals like dont kill others in your tribe or steal from others, etc. this can be OVER RIDDEN by events in life. i did not say that society is the reason for morals, but they do play a PART. if your society believes stealing is okay, then you will learn that behavior over time. if your religion believes killing sinners is okay, you will not have a problem with blowing yourself up. there are many factors that go into morals. to say we get our morals from religion is wrong. religion got its morals from society. otherwise, our race wouldnt even exist because we would have killed eachother off before religion even came around. plus if religion was the key to morals, atheists would kill and steal all the time.



> Well that's exactly the case withreligion too, it teaches us our morals just like society teaches you your morals.


yes but it is not the sole source of morals. we can have just as good morals being secular.



> Yes I suppose I can but like I stated earlier I follow the bible because of it's morals.


what about all the bad morals? just ignore it i guess?



> Did you research the evidence yet? Tell me what you think about it if you have.


the only thing i saw was religious websites claiming they have evidence but they dont explain why, they just say it is. the language is iffy too because they make assumptions. ill keep looking later though



> Well we are to "bare good fruits" which means just have a positive impact on the world and people on a day to day basis and hopefully god will let you into heaven.


yeah that would be nice. but is it true? thats what really matters.
believe does not equal truth.
plus why cant we treat people nicely because it feels good to help others? why cant we have those rewards for good deeds on earth?


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> My iPod doesn't let me see videos.


aww man



> Maybe but what about Jesus' miracles?


what about the 'miracles' performed by preachers in churches all the time? they are not healing anyone at all, but the people still totally believed that he cured blindness or cancer, etc. there is a crowd of thousands watching him that believe he cured these people. the human brain can easily be deceived.



> No the bible says "thou shalt not kill" so that automatically rejects the extremists POV of right. Saying you should not kill is pretty clear to me so they would have to twist the scriptures in order to justify their killings.


god kills many people in the bible for various reasons. he also tells humans to kill others, including family members. someone could easily dismiss the "thou shalt not kill" part and emphasize that murder is okay on certain people, because god told this guy to kill based on X reason. this does happen. you can see evidence of it with the jihadist muslims that blow themselves up.
it also seems pretty clear to me that stoning homosexuals can be justified without twisting scripture. the same goes for women that have sex before marriage. its all about emphasis. you just choose to emphasize the parts that the average joe would consider 'moral', while dismissing the parts you think negatively of AKA 'dont believe in'



> You already knew this answer so why ask? (not fighting, alright in tired of saying that. Let me make this clear I may be a smartass I may call you out on things, but I want you to understand I'm not fighting, ha).


i ask because im trying to get you to question your beliefs. not trying to talk you out of it, just showing you there are negatives to it that you may not see.
i also do not mean to fight when i call you out on stuff. that is what makes good debate


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> if he isnt watching us, then he doesnt give a shit whether we believe in him or not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Exactly it's not gonna hurt him if we don't follow him but he does care for us. 


Oh I thought you were asking to prove my faith again, oops. I don't have any proof to disprove the big bang but I mean how is absolutely nothing gonna turn into us even after all those years?

Bro do you still believe humans have natural morals that are influenced by society? How do you know religion got it's morals from society? What if it was the other way around?

Exactly, I'm saying that I believe as long as you are good god will judge you positively.

Yes yes ignore it. The bible doesn't tell us to do "bad" things, it told some of the people referred to in the bible to do bad things but there was always a reason for it. 

You are looking up the wrong stuff, don't go to Christian websites because those people tend to be very close minded and just close their ears and scream "god is real and science is fake", I mean they can believe god, but god doesn't want blind followers, which is what they are.

If you want to be a good person without morals from the bible then that's great. That's exactly what Jesus want from us to bare good fruit. If you honestly want to "bare good fruit" then I believe god will judge you kindly.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> aww man
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah sorry about that, ha.

The thing is that Jesus caused physical miracles not curing you.

Cool, I can understand you questioning my beliefs. I was just making sure that we stay cool and not resort to hatred based on our beliefs.


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## olylifter420 (Sep 17, 2011)

> Don't participate in the threads


yes, that is why i turned down hep's invite to join. thank you by the way, your opinion is important to me and will be considered.


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## olylifter420 (Sep 17, 2011)

whats up with this spammer?




indipow82 said:


> Lets try talking about how marijuana is involved in all of these things rather than argue about who is right or fucking wrong. That is what the forum should be about. Not a bunch of dumb crap you all keep spitting about.


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 17, 2011)

another question i have if you follow the bible or any religion is why do you pick and choose what morals you follow out of the bible? if it as seen as the word of god shouldnt you be followin that shit to the t? doesnt it say that if you work on sunday the sabbath god says its punishable by death? lol everyone get the shottys out, tomorrow we got gods work to do!


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

blazinkill504 said:


> another question i have if you follow the bible or any religion is why do you pick and choose what morals you follow out of the bible? if it as seen as the word of god shouldnt you be followin that shit to the t? doesnt it say that if you work on sunday the sabbath god says its punishable by death? lol everyone get the shottys out, tomorrow we got gods work to do!


Ugh it's getting annoying answering this question over anover again. Go search through other threads because this question has been answered countless times.


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Ugh it's getting annoying answering this question over anover again. Go search through other threads because this question has been answered countless times.


ok well fuck that question i got another. do you really believe in a dude that lived to be 950 and went around and got every animal from around the globe and put them in a big ass ship? or that a dude lived in a whale for 3 days? talkin snakes?


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## olylifter420 (Sep 17, 2011)

I got one for you, why dont you go and search the other threads????????
notice that it is a question




blazinkill504 said:


> ok well fuck that question i got another. do you really believe in a dude that lived to be 950 and went around and got every animal from around the globe and put them in a big ass ship? or that a dude lived in a whale for 3 days? talkin snakes?


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Exactly it's not gonna hurt him if we don't follow him but he does care for us.


so religion is pointless? the only reason it exists is for society? and how do you know he cares for you? caring is a very human quality.



> Oh I thought you were asking to prove my faith again, oops. I don't have any proof to disprove the big bang but I mean how is absolutely nothing gonna turn into us even after all those years?


physics... i suggest you look into the big bang theory and see what its really about because you dont seem to know.
the big bang does not say the universe came from nothing. it is called a singularity



> Bro do you still believe humans have natural morals that are influenced by society?


yes we have evidence of it all around us. your religious morals were a learned behavior. you were not born with the bibles teaching in your head. but if you were not taught about the bible, would you be a serial killer? of course not.
how many people did that feral child murder? how many women did he rape?



> How do you know religion got it's morals from society? What if it was the other way around?


because we wouldnt exist if it was the other way around. religion has not been around for humanities entire existence. if we didnt have morals without religion, we would have stolen, killed, etc. from our friends/family/tribe. if everyone was stealing and killing eachother, how would we form a decent tribe or civilization? 
natural selection brought about morals because those that killed friends/family/tribe were less likely to mate. trusting that you will not kill me is important when we are living in the same hut



> Exactly, I'm saying that I believe as long as you are good god will judge you positively.


what is good can change over time.



> Yes yes ignore it. The bible doesn't tell us to do "bad" things, it told some of the people referred to in the bible to do bad things but there was always a reason for it.


no there is not always a good reason for it lol.



> You are looking up the wrong stuff, don't go to Christian websites because those people tend to be very close minded and just close their ears and scream "god is real and science is fake", I mean they can believe god, but god doesn't want blind followers, which is what they are.


you are also a blind follower(no offense). you seem to make excuses for the bad parts to justify why it is right because god wants it, and praise the good parts. there is no way that the god in the bible is a loving god. it just cannot be true with all the shit god pulls in the bible.



> If you want to be a good person without morals from the bible then that's great. That's exactly what Jesus want from us to bare good fruit. If you honestly want to "bare good fruit" then I believe god will judge you kindly.


you seem to know a lot about what god does or doesnt want


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Yeah sorry about that, ha.
> 
> The thing is that Jesus caused physical miracles not curing you.
> 
> Cool, I can understand you questioning my beliefs. I was just making sure that we stay cool and not resort to hatred based on our beliefs.


physical miracles?


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

hep, if you have something to watch youtube on, look up "evidence big bang 10 minutes". it should be the first video. the picture is all purple and its by a guy named philhellenes


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## sen.c (Sep 17, 2011)

> hep, if you have something to watch youtube on, look up "evidence big bang 10 minutes". it should be the first video. the picture is all purple and its by a guy named philhellenes


You guys just can't get it you laugh at us and say we can't prove this and that yet you tell someone to look at this Big Bang CRAP. Are you seriously mentally ill or are you just so blinded by your own lack of proof you just can't see anything else?


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 17, 2011)

olylifter420 said:


> I got one for you, why dont you go and search the other threads????????
> notice that it is a question


with that bruh you coulda just wrote what you think lol rather than me search through pages upon pages of shit


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> so religion is pointless? the only reason it exists is for society? and how do you know he cares for you? caring is a very human quality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


God created us so I'm sure he knows what caring is.


Alright so how was the first matter created?


Maybe but god sees your soul (don't call me crazy) and knows if you are good.


Maybe not to you.

I'm not a blind follower. I listen to what science states as fact and do not argue against that. A blind follower will just do whatever they want because they can twist a scripture and say god wants me to do it. A blind follower will also deny facts. When do I make excuses for the bad things the people did during the creation of the bible days?


I believe I have a very very basic idea of what god wants from us.

I also believe our debate has come down to nothing of any importance. Unless you ask a question with a pure curiosity I will not answer it (no offense) because sooner or later it will just come down to me being "crazy" and then we will start the cycle over again. Once again no offense dude.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

blazinkill504 said:


> with that bruh you coulda just wrote what you think lol rather than me search through pages upon pages of shit


We have already answered your previous questions (asked by other members of RIU) countless times, now if you really want an answer you can go find it yourself. Finding an answer to your question is not our problem, it's only yours.


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 17, 2011)

sen.c said:


> You guys just can't get it you laugh at us and say we can't prove this and that yet you tell someone to look at this Big Bang CRAP. Are you seriously mentally ill or are you just so blinded by your own lack of proof you just can't see anything else?


Do you know what redshift is?

Do you know who Edwin Hubble was?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Hubble

No evidence huh? 

What would you call that?


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

sen.c said:


> You guys just can't get it you laugh at us and say we can't prove this and that yet you tell someone to look at this Big Bang CRAP. Are you seriously mentally ill or are you just so blinded by your own lack of proof you just can't see anything else?


please tell me... how did your creator create the universe? do you have a better explanation?


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hey Luger, I took a look at that video clip and got this from it. The universe is expanding and can be proven by the redshift. The universe has been around 13.8 billion years. What I didn't get from it is what created it? Were they saying that there was gases and energy waves before the big bang? His accent was a little strange to follow and I kept talking to someone so I feel like I missed where they explain the very beginning. I know they have evidence that shows how old the universe is and how it's expanding but how was it created? Please explain because I can't really hear him that good.


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## sen.c (Sep 17, 2011)

Oh, that got a reaction and by the way padawan to answers your questions yes. Your point is, exactly. How bought this, we just say you are idiots like you call us. Now we are both idiots. It is funnt every time someone states they don't have the evidence they require to meet their individual burden of proof all you science boys jump up and call us simple minded, stupid and everything else but in the grand scheme of things you can't PROVE your claims either. Boy isn't that funny how that works.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Wait so all the big bang states is the universe started in a very hot dense space. Ok so they have evidence to prove the big bang. Let's put that to the side, now then can you explain where this very hot dense space was created? What gave the heat? Were there gases that created the heat? If so what created those gases? How was there any space if there was nothing (I'm not talking about the big bang)? So something must be expanding (big bang) but what is this something? How was this something created?


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## sen.c (Sep 17, 2011)

They can't Heph, that's the problem. They can give you this really neat story and possibilities about what they think caused it but they actually have no idea.


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## mexiblunt (Sep 17, 2011)

And to alot of people those stories and possibillities make alot more sense than others.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

mexiblunt said:


> And to alot of people those stories and possibillities make alot more sense than others.


True but you can't just say one is wrong when you don't know for sure yours is fact.


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> God created us so I'm sure he knows what caring is.


id say thats an assumption



> Alright so how was the first matter created?


that question tells me you have not even looked into the big bang. 

at first there was pure energy, which eventually spread out enough to cool down and form particles and atoms. at first there was no matter, just energy. we know this is possible because atom bombs work. energy and mass are interchangeable 



> Maybe but god sees your soul (don't call me crazy) and knows if you are good.


thats a bunch of bullshit



> Maybe not to you.


uhh okay 



> I'm not a blind follower. I listen to what science states as fact and do not argue against that.


you just got done telling me you believe the big bang is false for no apparent reason. there is tons of evidence that shows morals have been evolved. there is tons of evidence that we are an evolved species that didnt just show up when god created us. theres tons of evidence that shows religious beliefs are nothing but tricks of the brain. theres tons of evidence that shows people form beliefs first, then search for information that backs up their beliefs. basically, you see what you want to see(god changing events that are actually not god) because you already know god is real.
and also the lack of evidence for your god shows you dont listen to what science says.



> A blind follower will just do whatever they want because they can twist a scripture and say god wants me to do it. A blind follower will also deny facts. When do I make excuses for the bad things the people did during the creation of the bible days?


you are blind because you only read the good parts of the bible and deny the bad parts. you think the bible is full of good morals. you deny facts about the things i said right above this quote.
you make excuses for the people back in the bible days by believing that their experiences are real without any verification. you have nothing to base your beliefs on besides the very same book that gives you those beliefs. just because somebody says they saw something doesnt make it true, and even if it is, that persons description could be WAY off from reality.




> I believe I have a very very basic idea of what god wants from us.


how could you possibly know anything god wants? you dont even have evidence for why you think he exists, let alone enough to verify his wants and needs.



> I also believe our debate has come down to nothing of any importance. Unless you ask a question with a pure curiosity I will not answer it (no offense) because sooner or later it will just come down to me being "crazy" and then we will start the cycle over again. Once again no offense dude.


the reason it ends up with you 'being crazy' is because you have no reason to believe this nonsense you do. you have told me you have no reason other than faith. that is not a good enough reason to believe something that so fundamentally changes your life.


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Hey Luger, I took a look at that video clip and got this from it. The universe is expanding and can be proven by the redshift. The universe has been around 13.8 billion years. What I didn't get from it is what created it? Were they saying that there was gases and energy waves before the big bang? His accent was a little strange to follow and I kept talking to someone so I feel like I missed where they explain the very beginning. I know they have evidence that shows how old the universe is and how it's expanding but how was it created? Please explain because I can't really hear him that good.


the big bang is NOT a creation theory. it does not say what happened before the singularity.


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## cannabineer (Sep 17, 2011)

Scientists can describe the likely overall conditions in the young universe to within maybe ten to the minus forty-third second of the moment of bangness. 
But if you want to know "what CAUSED the Big Bang to happen?" nobody, not scientist not other, has a plausible explanation yet. We're so far operating on the effective certainty that it did happen.

As for what preceded the Big Bang? Less than nothing. There was no space, no time. There was only whatever higher supercontinuum (extra dimensions in time andor space) into which the baby universe emerged like a tiny hot dense bubble in a hyperdimensional can of soda.
cheers 'neer


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> the big bang is NOT a creation theory. it does not say what happened before the singularity.


Ok I said ignore the big bang, now then please explain how the universe was created.

Please answer the questions from my last post.


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Wait so all the big bang states is the universe started in a very hot dense space. Ok so they have evidence to prove the big bang. Let's put that to the side, now then can you explain where this very hot dense space was created?


there was no 'where' before the big bang. space itself was created from it. there was no concept of space before the big bang.
do you have an explanation for how the singularity was created besides god did it?(unless you have evidence for that of course)



> What gave the heat?


the lack of 'space' and the particles flying around and bumping into eachother 



> Were there gases that created the heat?


gas is a form of matter



> If so what created those gases?


i think you mean what created the singularity. the answer is we dont know



> How was there any space if there was nothing (I'm not talking about the big bang)?


there wasnt space. the big bang is the explanation of the universe and SPACE ITSELF expanding. its a hard concept to grasp



> So something must be expanding (big bang) but what is this something?


space is expanding. we call the expansionary 'force' dark energy.



> How was this something created?


we dont know


i hope this doesnt turn into a 'the big bang doesnt say what happened before the singularity, so god must be real' debate. in order to form conclusions, you MUST have something to back up your claims. you cannot just say god exists because we dont know.

also i would like to add this. if we know this expansion happened and blah blah blah... doesnt that make god creating the earth and putting humans on it a little ridiculous?


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Ok I said ignore the big bang, now then please explain how the universe was created.
> 
> Please answer the questions from my last post.


This isn't the way you figure things out dude. Nobody knows how the universe was created. We are limited right now, we don't know. This doesn't mean we won't find out or there aren't good theories out there. 

But just because we don't know doesn't mean "God did it". Do you understand that?


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

sen.c said:


> They can't Heph, that's the problem. They can give you this really neat story and possibilities about what they think caused it but they actually have no idea.





Hepheastus420 said:


> True but you can't just say one is wrong when you don't know for sure yours is fact.


so we should just assume god did it and leave it at that?


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Ok I said ignore the big bang, now then please explain how the universe was created.
> 
> Please answer the questions from my last post.


why would i know what created the universe? i dont assume things just because i dont understand the concept. now your turn. please explain how the universe was created 

sorry idk what question you are referring to

edit: oops i did answer the questions already haha


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## olylifter420 (Sep 17, 2011)

straw man...





Luger187 said:


> so we should just assume god did it and leave it at that?


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## diesel15 (Sep 17, 2011)

let me just say this. idone just about every sin in the bible man, multiple times, and istill slip up from time to time but hey, im human like the rest of yall. but look, iremember when mom and pops use to say, dont do this or that and idid it anyway and im still beating myself up for not listening and im sure many of you are too. but put it this way, God says dont do this or that, and we do it anyway, and what happens ? the consequences. you see, mommy and daddy told us those things for a reason. to keep us from those consequences, because they knew what would happen. the same, God knows whats going to happen and 100% of the time it does if you keep doing it. God's law is indestructable, it aint going no where, so why go against it?


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> We have already answered your previous questions (asked by other members of RIU) countless times, now if you really want an answer you can go find it yourself. Finding an answer to your question is not our problem, it's only yours.


this is what you're not gettin. honestly i could give a shit what your answer is it was asked to make you think about all the retarded shit that you believe.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Padawanbater2 said:


> This isn't the way you figure things out dude. Nobody knows how the universe was created. We are limited right now, we don't know. This doesn't mean we won't find out or there aren't good theories out there.
> 
> But just because we don't know doesn't mean "God did it". Do you understand that?


No I don't understand how you say we are wrong on how the universe was created when you don't know how the universe was created. It's like you ask me how something is done. I tell you it's this way, then you say no it's not. Then I ask how is it done then? And you say IDK I think it's this way. Well guess what I'm still gonna stick with my way until you prove to me your way is right. And the way I prove my way is right is waiting until death when we leave this world. However if you show me undeniable proof that you know how the world was created then I must reconsider my beliefs. Until then let's smoke some bowls.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

blazinkill504 said:


> this is what you're not gettin. honestly i could give a shit what your answer is it was asked to make you think about all the retarded shit that you believe.


You don't think we got your satire? Wow. I told you to go to the other threads so you can let the other atheists who actually have a real debate talk. You do realize we don't take you seriously, right? I mean you come here with no knowledge and try shooting us down, that's hilarious. How about you go run along and find out how the universe was created then come back and tell me so I can reconsider my beliefs.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 17, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> why would i know what created the universe? i dont assume things just because i dont understand the concept. now your turn. please explain how the universe was created
> 
> sorry idk what question you are referring to
> 
> edit: oops i did answer the questions already haha


Check this out dude, all this started when I asked Christians some questions on RIU then a bunch of atheists came in and slaughtered my tribe (ha, tribe). From then on I have been DEFENDING religion, I'm not tryingto convert anyone. Atheists on the other hand just won't leave us alone (which I have asked several times). They make threads making fun of religious people make jokes about them and then ask for proof like a thousand times a day (exaggeration of course). Then we say we rely on FAITH then they typically call us crazy and start the cycle of jokes, ridicule, and the asking of proof all over again. Then when we stick up for ourselves and ask you to prove your BELiEF of how the world was created and you guys always say IDK. Do you not see how unfair this is?


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> No I don't understand how you say we are wrong on how the universe was created when you don't know how the universe was created.


AGAIN, we say you are wrong because you claim god exists but have no evidence for it. we do not claim to know what happened before the universe was created. the only people that do that are religious people. we are saying its not okay to make up a god that created the universe just because we dont understand it. you have no reason to believe it, and i believe your religion as a whole harms society. it makes people ignorant while thinking they KNOW god created everything. and they make excuses for everything saying its in gods plan, or we should pray to make it better.



> It's like you ask me how something is done. I tell you it's this way, then you say no it's not. Then I ask how is it done then? And you say IDK I think it's this way.


thats confusing. bottom line is nobody here claims to know what happened before the big bang besides you. and the only reason you believe that is faith.



> Well guess what I'm still gonna stick with my way until you prove to me your way is right.


nobody can ever prove god wrong. we can search every speck of the universe and you would still claim he exists outside the universe. or we can search forever and you can say he transcends time. its nothing but excuses to hide the fact your god is in your head. i know this because you cant prove hes not



> And the way I prove my way is right is waiting until death when we leave this world.


yeah but the problem with that is you never find out. you just die and you would never know if you were wrong. the only thing that you can experience after death is heaven(if its real). if heaven isnt real, then you experience nothing. so you cannot experience being wrong after death.



> However if you show me undeniable proof that you know how the world was created then I must reconsider my beliefs. Until then let's smoke some bowls.


where did you go to school man? i hope your over 30 because you should know this stuff.

heres something real quick from google. too lazy to type it out haha

http://www.wisegeek.com/how-was-the-earth-created.htm


> The Earth was created 4.54 billion years ago when part of the Sun's accretion disc agglomerated into a spherical body. At that time, shortly after the birth of the Sun itself, the solar system's matter was much more scattered around, in the form of asteroids and dust rather than planets. This "matter cloud" has been called a Bok globule, and these globules have been observed in other parts of the Galaxy. Scientists have determined the age of the Earth relatively precisely using isotope dating of the world's oldest rocks.
> 
> It is not known precisely what mechanism caused the precursor of the solar system, a gaseous nebulae, to form into the Sun and its attendant accretion disc. It may have been shockwaves from a nearby supernova, or simple gravitational collapse due to a threshold density. Whatever the cause, when enough density gathered in the center of the gas cloud, it ignited to become the Sun. The resulting heat banished volatiles (materials with low melting points) to the outer solar system, while leaving rocky bodies, like the Earth, Mercury, Venus, and Mars, in the inner solar system, where they could grow.
> 
> ...





Hepheastus420 said:


> Check this out dude, all this started when I asked Christians some questions on RIU then a bunch of atheists came in and slaughtered my tribe (ha, tribe). From then on I have been DEFENDING religion, I'm not tryingto convert anyone. Atheists on the other hand just won't leave us alone (which I have asked several times). They make threads making fun of religious people make jokes about them and then ask for proof like a thousand times a day (exaggeration of course).


we ask because you believe god is real and jesus was him, etc. when we ask how you know, you say you just believe it and have faith. wtf kind of excuse is that?



> Then we say we rely on FAITH then they typically call us crazy and start the cycle of jokes, ridicule, and the asking of proof all over again.


because we think it is crazy to believe and defend something as much as you do all based on faith. no rational person would believe in it



> Then when we stick up for ourselves and ask you to prove your BELiEF of how the world was created and you guys always say IDK. Do you not see how unfair this is?


we know how the earth was created. i put the quote up in this post.
once again, the difference is YOU ARE CLAIMING SOMETHING. you believe that god exists and always refuse to give anything substantial to back it up because you dont have any. why believe in it so much if you know its bullshit?!


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## olylifter420 (Sep 17, 2011)

> AGAIN, we say you are wrong because you claim god exists but have no evidence for it.


Argument from ignorance (appeal to ignorance, argumentum ad ignorantiam): assuming that a claim is true (or false) because it has not been proven false (true) or cannot be proven false (true).



> and the only reason you believe that is faith.


straw man



> because we think it is crazy to believe and defend something as much as you do all based on faith. no rational person would believe in it


argumentum verbosium


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> You don't think we got your satire? Wow. I told you to go to the other threads so you can let the other atheists who actually have a real debate talk. You do realize we don't take you seriously, right? I mean you come here with no knowledge and try shooting us down, that's hilarious. How about you go run along and find out how the universe was created then come back and tell me so I can reconsider my beliefs.


no knowledge? more than likely i know way more than you about this shit considerin ive been religious and now i am not. so when you take the time to go on the other side of the fence and educate yourself dont come at me talkin bout you arent listenin to me cause i have no knowledge HAHA you're not listenin cause you're high up your ass in these forums and im new. if you wanna be real thats why. you're soo quick to say such as the big bang didnt happen cause they have no proof, yet you full foward worship someone that you've never seen, heard, or talked to. step into reality dude im not tryin to be an ass, but when i see some dude typin novels out then when i ask a question he types more to tell me he isnt gonna type that out go look for it i was all for havin a real debate till you did that dumb shit


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## Luger187 (Sep 17, 2011)

olylifter420 said:


> Argument from ignorance (appeal to ignorance, argumentum ad ignorantiam): assuming that a claim is true (or false) because it has not been proven false (true) or cannot be proven false (true).


instead of wrong, i should have said have false claims.



> straw man


nope. he has said a few times all he has is faith



> argumentum verbosium


do you not think it is crazy to truly believe there is a flying spaghetti monster in the sky? is that rational?


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## tyler.durden (Sep 17, 2011)

Morgan Lynn said:


> Creationism can be taught in a Sociology class, Ethnic Diversity class, or World Religions class. Science is science. Creationism does not fall under science.
> 
> When I was in high school we had "moments of silence" where students were allowed to pray. I was simply stating what was discussed at this event I attened.
> 
> ...


I've met Richard Dawkins several times, read almost all his books (got 'em signed, too) been to several lectures and an Atheist convention at Cal Tech. Dawkins is a firm believer that labeling a child with their parents' religion is tantamount to child abuse. Did you bring up attending a Dawkins event to state that you don't agree with him?

Edit: Never mind. I read your original post more carefully and understand you disagree with him...


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 18, 2011)

blazinkill504 said:


> no knowledge? more than likely i know way more than you about this shit considerin ive been religious and now i am not. so when you take the time to go on the other side of the fence and educate yourself dont come at me talkin bout you arent listenin to me cause i have no knowledge HAHA you're not listenin cause you're high up your ass in these forums and im new. if you wanna be real thats why. you're soo quick to say such as the big bang didnt happen cause they have no proof, yet you full foward worship someone that you've never seen, heard, or talked to. step into reality dude im not tryin to be an ass, but when i see some dude typin novels out then when i ask a question he types more to tell me he isnt gonna type that out go look for it i was all for havin a real debate till you did that dumb shit


Alright if you were up to a real debate then I'm sorry. Also I'm a fan of science I was jug asking for the atheists views on the creation of the universe. But seriously did you find out how the universe was created? Once again I apologize I thought you were just here to shoot religious people down.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 18, 2011)

tyler.durden said:


> I've met Richard Dawkins several times, read almost all his books (got 'em signed, too) been to several lectures and an Atheist convention at Cal Tech. Dawkins is a firm believer that labeling a child with their parents' religion is tantamount to child abuse. Did you bring up attending a Dawkins event to state that you don't agree with him?
> 
> Edit: Never mind. I read your original post more carefully and understand you disagree with him...


 Why are there atheists conventions? I mean all they have in common is the lack of belief in a god or deity. Or is it like an anti-religion convention? Just curious.


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## grizlbr (Sep 18, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> No I don't understand how you say we are wrong on how the universe was created when you don't know how the universe was created. It's like you ask me how something is done. I tell you it's this way, then you say no it's not. Then I ask how is it done then? And you say IDK I think it's this way. Well guess what I'm still gonna stick with my way until you prove to me your way is right. And the way I prove my way is right is waiting until death when we leave this world. However if you show me undeniable proof that you know how the world was created then I must reconsider my beliefs. Until then let's smoke some bowls.


<<<Nice What convinces me? MY testimony/ is just what I observed so it is specific to me, yours is your life how do I challenge what you went thru?


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## tyler.durden (Sep 18, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Why are there atheists conventions? I mean all they have in common is the lack of belief in a god or deity. Or is it like an anti-religion convention? Just curious.


 Good question, Hep. The American Atheists organization http://www.atheists.org (and a few others) hold conventions to support atheists' civil rights and to promote the separation of church and state. They discuss effective ways to overcome the threat of creationism being taught schools, and politics/politicians who have anti-science agendas. There's also a healthy dose of the latest scientific data, skepticism and debunking of lots of different kinds of bullshit like pseudo-science and conspiracy theory, and promote critical thinking. Some of the world's greatest minds show up, even intelligent theists attend for civil debate. They are awesome, and I wish I could afford to attend more of them...


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 18, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Alright if you were up to a real debate then I'm sorry. Also I'm a fan of science I was jug asking for the atheists views on the creation of the universe. But seriously did you find out how the universe was created? Once again I apologize I thought you were just here to shoot religious people down.


its all good man. my stand on it all is i dont know. i dunno if there is a god or if it was the big bang and i also dont know if god made us or if we're just product of stardust collectin into planets in our solar system. for example we wouldnt be here if our solar system didnt form the way it did. examples our molten core that give a strong magnetic field around the earth protectin us from mini meteorites and the suns radiation, we're just in the right spot distance wise from the sun, jupiter that keeps asteroids from hittin us by its strong ass gravity, the moon keepin us on the perfect axis to sustain life, the fact the sun and moon are the same size in the sky, just soooo many little things that have to be perfectly in line those kinda things make me think a higher power is at work. then i say well given we know that we have billions of stars in the known univere so all those specific situation occurin by chance is a possibility. like bill maher i preach the word of i dont know lol


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 18, 2011)

tyler.durden said:


> Good question, Hep. The American Atheists organization http://www.atheists.org (and a few others) hold conventions to support atheists' civil rights and to promote the separation of church and state. They discuss effective ways to overcome the threat of creationism being taught schools, and politics/politicians who have anti-science agendas. There's also a healthy dose of the latest scientific data, skepticism and debunking of lots of different kinds of bullshit like pseudo-science and conspiracy theory, and promote critical thinking. Some of the world's greatest minds show up, even intelligent theists attend for civil debate. They are awesome, and I wish I could afford to attend more of them...


That's cool, is it just for atheists? Like do people from different religions show up and debate with them? If so I would like to go... Ha I would probably be kicked out, but seriously sounds interesting.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 18, 2011)

Dude (Tyler) your avatar of tyler always makes me want a cigarette, like seriously everytime I see it I either roll a joint or smoke a cig. Ha I'm not even joking.


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## troylamonte (Sep 18, 2011)

cannabineer said:


> I posted something meaningful and in good cheer. Both your responses to me seem to convey disrespect. Good luck in your travels.
> cheers 'neer


there r different degrees of Christs followers should not b but there is a growth period for all earth inhabitants and a maturing process. tha
t rings us to ur question, Having a relationship with God thru Jesus Christ which is wat it is all about. Relationship connotes a communication, some sort of affinity and mutual interest. in my case I took Jesus everywhere and he saved me from many a bad situations. I realize/acknowledge the pressesnce of God. _ it is a process that starts with reading His word and walking with God and He will do the rest to renew your mind cleanse it from the world wisdom which is foolishness o God. Jesus will draw all men unto Him but it is ur choice. In the end every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. _


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## troylamonte (Sep 18, 2011)

there r those that arent true witnesses or ambassadors for Christ. my life should draw u not only my words but atleast my words should be in accord with my life. salt water and frest water cannot come from the same well, so when u see it think process. pray for that individual because they r in the process a transition from that old man to putting on the new.


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## troylamonte (Sep 18, 2011)

olylifter420 said:


> cause i dont want to be an asshole athesit like you.


we r all sinner and fall short of the Glory of God. there is non righteous no not one. we must draw men as paul write i become all things to all men so to draw them to Christ. CHILDREN OF LIGHT DUH. God Grace until the coming of Jesus, they can be saved, but not by these harsh references. you have sinned and god say it is better for u to tie a millstone around ur neck and throw it into the river than for you to mislead one of these His little ones (babes in Christ). repent!!!


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## troylamonte (Sep 18, 2011)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> what is it that convinces you personaly to believe in the god you believe in , what is the one single thing that confirms in YOUR mind that your god exists and you want to worship him/her/it? .


THERE NO ONE SINGLE THING THOUGH. THATS THE GREATNESS AND GOODNESS OF OUR FATHER. HE IS THE GOD OF ABUNDANCE, THE gOD OF MORE THAN ENOUGH


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## troylamonte (Sep 18, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> through proof. not in terms of heres proof right here in black n white on paper by scientist -----. but through searchin for proof by myself for myself.. you see God's way is the way to life that'll keep you from violence, and destruction. ''if'' you truly search for him, he'll reveal himself to you. sativa high, your searchin for God's truth whether you know it or not.[/QUO
> 
> GOD HAS NOT GONE ANYWHERE IT IS WE WHO MOVE FROM HIM. AS U READ IN OLD TEST. YOU GO A WHORING SERVING OTHER gods AFTER IT IS I WHO HAVE INCREASED U SAVED U FEED U BUT U REBEL AND STILL MY HANDS R OPEN WIDE. GOD IS ALL AROUND US OMNI-PRESENT. U NEED ONLY CRY OUT TO HIM. ALL GLORY BELONGS TO THE FATHER. THOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GOD BEFORE ME AND 2 LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF ON THESE 2 HANG ALL THE LAWS AND THE PROPHETS.


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## troylamonte (Sep 18, 2011)

morgan lynn said:


> http://www.400monkeys.com/god/


sorry to say there is a god. It is going to be very interesting to see yours and all the other faces of those on the left when they see our king coming in his glory and when they have to sit and give an account at the judgement seat. Its funny how u think we just sprang to existence and the process doesnt happen now (evolution). And we can only explore our galaxy but there b billions of them and we havent explored our own planets oceans or explain and prevent catastrophic episodes. Yea of little mind and ways jer 55


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## mindphuk (Sep 18, 2011)

troylamonte said:


> Its funny how u think we just sprang to existence and the process doesnt happen now (evolution).


 Actually it is the religionist that claims that we just sprang into existence. Rational people understand there was a long slow process that took billions of years before the first multicellular organism evolved. If you consider that springing into existence, I don't think anyone can help you understand.


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## troylamonte (Sep 18, 2011)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> why does your god play silly games ? why do you need to SEARCH for the guy ? why dosent he just reveal himself ? it all seems a bit silly to me , all i ever hear from religious people is 'i can see him ' 'you just need faith ' 'your searching for his love ' .........what a load of bull , is your god some kind of sadistic weirdo who likes to fuck with your mind ? ....................'only you can see god when hes ready to show himself ' ' god works in mysterious ways ' 'your just a human why should god reveal himself to you ' its all nonsense and i cant believe in 2011 theres still people who fall this trickery , according to you your god made us its him who put us here to worship him , yet here i am supposedly having to search for him lol ........................oh and P.S i dont need religion to keep me from violence and destruction , why do people feel they need a god to behave well ? dont you trust yourself ?


i CAN SEE UR CONFUSION, I HAD SIMILAR QUESTIONS, DOUBT AND DISBELIEF. BUT IT WAS IN THOSE ARENAS WHERE I SAW HIM. HE WAS AND IS THERE ALL ALONG BUT IT IT WE WHO CAN NOT SEE OR HEAR. WHEN ELISHA WAS BESIEGED BY THE KING WHO WONDERED HOW ELISHA KNEW OF THE WAR PLANS HE DISCUSSED IN HIS BEDCHAMBERS AND SENT A GREAT HOST TO KILL HIM. ELISHAS ASSISTANT WAS AFRAID BUT ELISHA TOLD HIM THAT THEIR WERE MORE WITH THEM THAN THERE WERE SOLDIERS. ELISHA ASK GOD TO OPEN THE EYES OF THE ASSISTANT AND HE SAW. 2KINGS 6:12. MAN IS ALWAYS QUESTIONING FOR SOMETHING RESTLESS WHICH UNGUARDED (STANDARD) TURN TO HIS OWN UNDERSTANDING WHICH OFTEN SHOW TO BE DEVICIVE, MALICIOUS, HARD HEARTED, CRUEL AND THE LIKE TO ENSURE PRESERVATION OF THEIR INTERESTS. WE ALL HAVE SHORT COMINGS, THINK WRONG THINGS DO WRONG THINGS BUT IN ALL THESE THINGS WE HAVE A WAY OF APPEASING OURSELVES INTO BELEIVING WHAT WE DID OR THE WAY WE ACTED WAS RIGHT AND/OR COME TO TERMS WITH IT IN OUR MINDS. BUT WHAT ABOUT THOSE AFFECTED BY OUR ACTIONS, WHATG ABOUT THE ONES HURT, DISENCHANED, CHANGED BY OUR WRONG WAYS. YEAH WE'RE FINE AND SETTLED, BUT THE DAMAGE IS DONE. WHAT ABOUT THE ONE WHO CANNOT PROCESS THE ILLS OF SOCIETY MORE EXPICITLY PEOPLE. HOW DO YOU HANDLE IT. IM SURE YOUR NOT 100% AND DO EVERYTHING CORRECT? WHATIS YOUR MORAL STANDARD, WHAT PROCESS OR THINGS GO ON IN YOU TO AFFECT CHANG IN YOU? IS IT FRIENDS, DRS, ? WHAT? AND IF U DO R THE WHOLE IS THEIR ADVICE FROM A PREVIOUS HURT OR SOMETHING THAT WOULD RENDER THEIR OPINION OR ADVICE BIAS? HMM! THERE IS A VOID IN MAN THAT ONLY GOD CAN FILL. RELATIONSHIP IF U HAVENT TRIED IT U ONLY SPEAK FROM IGNORANCE (NOT KNOWING). FOR INSTANCE YOU HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH A FEMALE OR MALE SAY U INTEND TO ENGAGE AND MARRY. YOU WANT TO ESTSBLISH A RELATIONSHIP WITH HER. AND THAT IN THESE DAYS MEANS COMMUNICAION, TIME SPENT TOGETHER, YOU CANT WAIT TO SEE THEM TALK TO THEM, THEY WILL DO FOR U AND U DO FOR THEM, AND ALL THE STUFF THA COMES ALONG WITH RELATIONSHIP. AND IF U HAVENT DONE ANY OF THIS PROCESS WITH GOD AND JESUS OUR ABBA FATHER AND OUR BROTHER YOU DONT KNOW GOD OR JESUS AND THERFORE NOT QUALIFIED TO MAKE ANY REMARKS. THAT LIKE ME ASKING U ABOUT MY WIFE HER LIKES AND DISLIKES. ABSURD! THIS LIFE IS SIMPLE SAYS THE LORD. HE CHOSE THE SIMPLE THINGS TO CONFOUND THE WISE. TRUTH JESUS


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## troylamonte (Sep 18, 2011)

sativa take ur eyes off man and look at Jesus. He is own ensample. man will fail. false prophets


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## troylamonte (Sep 18, 2011)

olylifter420 said:


> hostility? are you real?
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/449547-lets-debate.html
> 
> ...


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## troylamonte (Sep 18, 2011)

Christ is not religion He is the way the truth and the life. this is a lifestyle. not a religion u give allegiance to.


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## Luger187 (Sep 18, 2011)

troylamonte said:


> THERE NO ONE SINGLE THING THOUGH. THATS THE GREATNESS AND GOODNESS OF OUR FATHER. HE IS THE GOD OF ABUNDANCE, THE gOD OF MORE THAN ENOUGH


so he is a god of abundance and more than enough, yet there is zero evidence he exists. interesting...



troylamonte said:


> sorry to say there is a god. It is going to be very interesting to see yours and all the other faces of those on the left when they see our king coming in his glory and when they have to sit and give an account at the judgement seat. Its funny how u think we just sprang to existence and the process doesnt happen now (evolution). And we can only explore our galaxy but there b billions of them and we havent explored our own planets oceans or explain and prevent catastrophic episodes. Yea of little mind and ways jer 55


you do know in order to verify if something is true or not you have to have some kind of evidence to back it up, right? you cant just claim god exists because you think he does. by the same reasoning, i can say there is definitely a flying spaghetti monster in the sky that covers us in his warm magic sauce(what you call gods love). you cant disprove it, so it must be true, right?!


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## diesel15 (Sep 18, 2011)

17pgs of crap. ijust got home from church, read this stuff and frankly at this rate its goin absolutely nowhere. yall remember that thread ihad when me and sen.c was killin yall with undeniable truth? well, ideleted it because we gave yall eryting from every standpoint ex. proof of Jesus, how to get to know him, and countless other valuable info and yall read it, sat there and spit in our faces anyway. but look man if any of you anti-Christ's want to learn the real truth pm me and ill talk to you ONLY if you want the REAL truth.


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## Luger187 (Sep 18, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> 17pgs of crap. ijust got home from church, read this stuff and frankly at this rate its goin absolutely nowhere. yall remember that thread ihad when me and sen.c was killin yall with undeniable truth? well, ideleted it because we gave yall eryting from every standpoint ex. proof of Jesus, how to get to know him, and countless other valuable info and yall read it, sat there and spit in our faces anyway. but look man if any of you anti-Christ's want to learn the real truth pm me and ill talk to you ONLY if you want the truth.


hahahahaha the truth huh? maybe its only truth because you believe it.


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## diesel15 (Sep 18, 2011)

you know what, iwas bein serious and itried to help yall but, thats all yall do is laugh and disrespect but its cool. hell isn't the final destination, the lake of fire is, but ill still pray for yall anyway and hopefully yall will see light before its too late


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## Luger187 (Sep 18, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> you know what, iwas bein serious and itried to help yall but, thats all yall do is laugh and disrespect but its cool. hell isn't the final destination, the lake of fire is, but ill still pray for yall anyway and hopefully yall will see light before its too late


i laugh because its totally ridiculous to believe these things. and when you say its the truth it makes it even better because theres nothing to back it up. sure jesus probably existed but that doesnt mean he was god. people just believe he is, like warren jeffs followers do. its all a function of the brain buddy


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## diesel15 (Sep 18, 2011)

look man, your pm folder is full


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## Luger187 (Sep 18, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> look man, your pm folder is full


thanks fixed it


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## tyler.durden (Sep 18, 2011)

troylamonte said:


> there is no debating the Word of God. Either u beleive it or u dont. u cant fill old wineskins with new wine.


If this is the case, it seems that your posting spree this Sunday morning was in vain. Someone had a triple shot of espresso, a double shot of church and a big bowl of scripture for breakfast...


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## tyler.durden (Sep 18, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> *
> That's cool, is it just for atheists? Like do people from different religions show up and debate with them? If so I would like to go... Ha I would probably be kicked out, but seriously sounds interesting. *
> 
> 
> Dude (Tyler) your avatar of tyler always makes me want a cigarette, like seriously everytime I see it I either roll a joint or smoke a cig. Ha I'm not even joking.


Anyone is free to attend. Intellectuals from many religions show up for debate, but those are scheduled events on stage. You could debate with attendees, you may be slightly outnumbered but you are used to that here 

I have the same reaction to my avatar, lucky I didn't choose a picture where he's beating someone to death...


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## spliffendz (Sep 18, 2011)

I was born into a religion, but I have complete and utter faith that there is a 'God', and not a god that is defined by the media or dogma.

I used to pray for little things when I was young, not silly things like riches, etc. but little personal things. 

When I say pray, I mean just closing my eyes, when I was emotional and really concentrating on the idea/concept I was "wishing" for. 2/3 things that I desired, came to be, that I can remember, but I am forever humble and greatful for the life that has been bestowed on me, anyway. 

One was material things, and one was for a family member to return. Some may say probability, but the material thing was certain numbers of items, and seeing as I prayed in my mind, and not aloud, there is no way anyone on earth would have know what I was desiring. 

These things I "prayed" for came to be, but only after a great time, so I agree with the saying, the best things come to those who wait. I am not for one second stating that this is how religion works though, as it doesn't. I am just relating a story as to what has confirmed my faith. Also, the miraculous world we live in, and the experiences we can feel as a human, are testament to a Lord of the universe...


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## tyler.durden (Sep 18, 2011)

spliffendz said:


> I was born into a religion, but I have complete and utter faith that there is a 'God', and not a god that is defined by the media or dogma.
> 
> I used to pray for little things when I was young, not silly things like riches, etc. but little personal things.
> 
> ...


[video=youtube;BH0rFZIqo8A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH0rFZIqo8A[/video]

[video=youtube;jk6ILZAaAMI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI[/video]


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 18, 2011)

spliffendz said:


> I was born into a religion, but I have complete and utter faith that there is a 'God', and not a god that is defined by the media or dogma.
> 
> I used to pray for little things when I was young, not silly things like riches, etc. but little personal things.
> 
> ...


 
What would it take to discredit prayer in your mind?

As you said, you prayed, then waited a long time before it was ever "answered", so how do you know it was actually being answered instead of just happen chance? 

Example;

Say my parents get divorced when I'm 12, I pray they get back together, a few years go by, nothing happens. Now I'm 15 and my mom decides she misses my dad and they get back together. See, in this situation, to a believer, I think they would be convinced that their prayers were answered, but to an atheist, I just see that time has passed, the love they both felt for each other is still there, no divine intervention required.

In this situation, how would you determine that it was in fact your prayer that got your parents back together and not just time and other natural circumstances?

This same line of reasoning goes along with sen.c's description of why he believes, to which I was never given an answer...


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## diesel15 (Sep 18, 2011)

ipromise yall on my life before God, and Lord if im lying right now strike me down and throw me in hell. ipromise on my life before God that if anybody lives for God and truly do his will your life will be much better. idone it all man, guns on me, plenty money, and hoes and friends who would do anything for me, i aint believe in no higher being. ileft it all to be with God, if there was any doubt in my mind about God not existing iwouldnt be here now talkin to yall about him and thats foreal. The devil puts things in my mind sometimes to try and get me away from God but God comes through for me everytime, and let me just say God dont got no reason to lie or fool you if he says something it is what it is. God aint go nowhere, we left from him. why would God grab your attention if you dont want it to be grabbed? but if you want to know him God will reveal himself. yeah God works in mysterious ways. it took me a serious beat down in prison for me to finally bow down to him, and let him be my boss, and once idid im glad he let me get beatdown because his word is 100% true.


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 18, 2011)

My frustration has peaked and it's only 11am...


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## lexros (Sep 18, 2011)

i guess i dont believe that the complex designs you see in nature were a fluke, i see the complex human body and the thousands of different species of a particular animal which are all unique in a certain way. i think there has to be a creator who designed all of this


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## tyler.durden (Sep 18, 2011)

Padawanbater2 said:


> My frustration has peaked and it's only 11am...


I hear you, Pada. I sensed your frustration yesterday when you scolded Oly: I have him on ignore, but I see some of his posts when people reply with quote to him. I read a civil back and forth between him and MP yesterday on another thread, and was impressed by oly's deference and eloquence, just to return here and see his posts degenerate. It's like reading Flowers for Algernon again...


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## tyler.durden (Sep 18, 2011)

lexros said:


> i guess i dont believe that the complex designs you see in nature were a fluke, i see the complex human body and the thousands of different species of a particular animal which are all unique in a certain way. i think there has to be a creator who designed all of this


You may want to study evolution: it explains in great detail exactly why we see the great diversity of life around us, and why it has the appearance of design without an actual designer. It was reasonable to believe a creator was responsible for the complexity of life before Darwin, but that was 150 years ago...


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## Luger187 (Sep 18, 2011)

also biology in general is good too. knowing how the insides of the cells work and how they exchange things talk to each other is a big part of it. 
its like millions of tiny biological machines coming together to create a larger machine(us). other animals simply have smaller machines that work in a different way, so they come together to form something else.
machine is a bad example because it implies a creator, but you get it lol


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## spliffendz (Sep 18, 2011)

tyler.durden said:


> You may want to study evolution: it explains in great detail exactly why we see the great diversity of life around us, and why it has the appearance of design without an actual designer. It was reasonable to believe a creator was responsible for the complexity of life before Darwin, but that was 150 years ago...



This is the major problem in modern day life, science 'trying' to explain everything, and thus making everyone take for granted the wonderful world we live in.


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## spliffendz (Sep 18, 2011)

and i dont try to shove my faith down anyones throat, yet all i see on many a canna forum, and other forums, is folk wasting their lives trying to disprove someones faith.


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## Luger187 (Sep 18, 2011)

spliffendz said:


> This is the major problem in modern day life, science 'trying' to explain everything, and thus making everyone take for granted the wonderful world we live in.


because everything can be explained. maybe not yet, but we use science to get there. without science, people can believe in anything because the human brain likes to believe things. people used to believe lightning was an act of god, until we figured out how it really works and what it really is.


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## Luger187 (Sep 18, 2011)

spliffendz said:


> and i dont try to shove my faith down anyones throat, yet all i see on many a canna forum, and other forums, is folk wasting their lives trying to disprove someones faith.


its not about disproving them. it is about showing them they have no proof, when they believe they do. the reason they believe is usually for superstitious reasons. once someone believes something, they pick and choose things to back up their beliefs, because they already know it is correct. we know this is a function of the brain


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## sen.c (Sep 18, 2011)

> dark energy.


Another phenominon they have absolutely no idea of but they will tell you it is real.

I hear you spliffendz, science has been a great but also wasteful means to and end. Science is wonderful when it comes to humanity as far as medicine and technology but in the same hand it is a detriment as well. 
It all comes down to pride, and that very pride will be the destruction of many brilliant people.



> because everything can be explained.


Really, that is interesting.



> it is about showing them they have no proof


In a perfect world maybe, but that couldn't be farther from the truth in many cases.



> they pick and choose things to back up their beliefs, because they already know it is correct. we know this is a function of the brain


That's funny, a function of the brain is survival. Try and hold your breath to kill yourself and your brain will say no. It is mans nature to survive at all cost so why would a person not recant their faith knowing they are about to be brutally killed for it? God gives man peace that can't be explained, and is evident in these situations. What would you do if you were going to be publicly excecuted recant or go through with it?


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## tyler.durden (Sep 18, 2011)

spliffendz said:


> This is the major problem in modern day life, science 'trying' to explain everything, and thus making everyone take for granted the wonderful world we live in.


Quite the contrary: scientific discoveries do not take away from the wonder and grandeur of life, but instead enhances it greatly. I was brought up christian and none of my experiences while in that mind state could match the awe and majesty I feel through scientific exploration. The explanation that, poof! god created all, is nothing compared to the detailed wonder of the natural occurring phenomena of the cosmos. The odds of anyone of us being here to discuss these things are trillions to one, that fact alone is enough for me never to take this experience of conscious life for granted...


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## tyler.durden (Sep 18, 2011)

spliffendz said:


> and i dont try to shove my faith down anyones throat, yet all i see on many a canna forum, and other forums, is folk wasting their lives trying to disprove someones faith.


I am on here to express my beliefs, and the reasons I hold them, for the purpose of self-expression and to learn. I think you post on this sub-forum for similar reasons. I don't feel this is a waste of time for either of us, sure beats watching TV...


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## Luger187 (Sep 18, 2011)

sen.c said:


> Another phenominon they have absolutely no idea of but they will tell you it is real.


no. they tell you there is something making the universe expand. they call it dark energy. id like to know your explanation for why it is expanding.
how many christians have absolutely no idea but proclaim god is real?



> I hear you spliffendz, science has been a great but also wasteful means to and end. Science is wonderful when it comes to humanity as far as medicine and technology but in the same hand it is a detriment as well.


so science is only good when it benefits you? but when it goes against your belief in god, its a wasteful thing?



> It all comes down to pride, and that very pride will be the destruction of many brilliant people.


what? 




> Really, that is interesting.


yes. as i explained, maybe we dont understand some things yet, but that does not mean they are unexplainable. 




> In a perfect world maybe, but that couldn't be farther from the truth in many cases.


maybe they can prove some things in the bible are true but that doesnt mean god exists. where is this proof that there is a god? id like to see it. until then, i wont waste my time believing in one.



> That's funny, a function of the brain is survival. Try and hold your breath to kill yourself and your brain will say no. It is mans nature to survive at all cost so why would a person not recant their faith knowing they are about to be brutally killed for it? God gives man peace that can't be explained, and is evident in these situations. What would you do if you were going to be publicly excecuted recant or go through with it?


it is not mans nature to survive at all costs. a man will gladly die for something they believe in, if the belief is strong enough. if their beliefs are bigger than themselves and they believe god will reward them for sticking up for him, they have little problem dying. heaven is coming, after all


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## TehWonder (Sep 18, 2011)

For me, it's the feeling that everything happens for a reason and at the end of the day everything you resent as well as cherish was planted or placed here for a greater and higher meaning.

'God' can be anything or nothing, it all depends on the person. I regard 'God' as more of a reminder of good practice, rather than an entity of divine purpose.


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## filtereye (Sep 18, 2011)

i imagine my god to be unisex and endless possibility of what it is

god is beyond the human race, beyond the simplifications given


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## Mannie Phresh (Sep 18, 2011)

when you gain understanding of yourself and the world around you it becomes perfectly clear their is more than just what you can see with your eyes.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 18, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> no. they tell you there is something making the universe expand. they call it dark energy. id like to know your explanation for why it is expanding.
> how many christians have absolutely no idea but proclaim god is real?


Ha it's funny that you ask for an explanation of why the world is expanding from a religious person, when it was a religious person who originally discovered what is known today as the Doppler effect. Which is what they based the world is expanding thing on.
IDK jut thought it was funny.


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## Luger187 (Sep 18, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Ha it's funny that you ask for an explanation of why the world is expanding from a religious person, when it was a religious person who originally discovered what is known today as the Doppler effect. Which is what they based the world is expanding thing on.
> IDK jut thought it was funny.


so it was because he was religious that he discovered the Doppler effect? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

and the universe is expanding, not the world


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 18, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> so it was because he was religious that he discovered the Doppler effect? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
> 
> and the universe is expanding, not the world


No I'm just saying I thought it was funny. I mean your saying many christians have no idea how the world is expanding, but we do. I mean it was a Christian who discovered the Doppler effect, so I'm pretty sure many Christians know the universe is expanding.


And you know what I meant when I said world (I think).


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 18, 2011)

Hey Luger I'm curious can you explain how the universe is expanding? Like what is it expanding into? Isn't the universe compressed, so what is all around the universe? Is it dark energy? Or is there nothing and the universe is simply just existing alone and expanding alone without anything surrounding it? I'm pretty sure they haven't discovered anything to answer my questions... Right?

Looking back at these questions I have to say they don't really make sense but it would be cool if you can understand what I'm asking.


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## Luger187 (Sep 18, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> No I'm just saying I thought it was funny. I mean your saying many christians have no idea how the world is expanding, but we do. I mean it was a Christian who discovered the Doppler effect, so I'm pretty sure many Christians know the universe is expanding.
> 
> 
> And you know what I meant when I said world (I think).


wtf? when did i say that? but anyways yes its true that many christians have no idea the universe is expanding or what that really means.


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 18, 2011)

dark energy is what is makin it expand not keepin it held back. and sadly until we find a new way to toy with space travel or more soo deep space telescopes we wont know cause the light from the rest of the universe simply hasnt hit us yet. they kinda have, but it dips into parallel universes and most ppl dont like the sound of that lol


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## Luger187 (Sep 18, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Hey Luger I'm curious can you explain how the universe is expanding?


they dont really know much about what dark energy is. they just know its there, so far. i havent read much of anything about it, so idk.



> Like what is it expanding into?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe
we dont know. the further away we look, the further back in time we see. the universe is so big, that when we look far away, the light that is hitting the telescope was released millions or billions or years ago. so, we see in the past.



> Isn't the universe compressed, so what is all around the universe?


we cant see it so idk. i dont see the universe as compressed. its just expanding



> Is it dark energy?


idk. dark energy is just the name they give to the force that makes the universe expand. if i knew what it was i would probably get a nobel prize haha



> Or is there nothing and the universe is simply just existing alone and expanding alone without anything surrounding it?


we can only see the observable universe. we dont know what is making the universe expand. they just call it dark energy because its dark and myserious. 



> I'm pretty sure they haven't discovered anything to answer my questions... Right?


i dont think so. i dont really know much about dark energy, so maybe they do know more stuff than i think they do



> Looking back at these questions I have to say they don't really make sense but it would be cool if you can understand what I'm asking.


i think i got it


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## Luger187 (Sep 18, 2011)

blazinkill504 said:


> dark energy is what is makin it expand not keepin it held back. and sadly until we find a new way to toy with space travel or more soo deep space telescopes we wont know cause the light from the rest of the universe simply hasnt hit us yet. they kinda have, but it dips into parallel universes and most ppl dont like the sound of that lol


haha some people think that if the expansion continues to increase exponentially, eventually we will get to the point where nothing is visible because the space stretched so much, the light cant catch up to it. so basically space would be pushing the light away. its doing that now i guess, but the light is winning the race


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 18, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> haha some people think that if the expansion continues to increase exponentially, eventually we will get to the point where nothing is visible because the space stretched so much, the light cant catch up to it. so basically space would be pushing the light away. its doing that now i guess, but the light is winning the race


is dark energy suppose to have a faster movin rate than light? i cant remember if it was dark energy or somethin else


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## Luger187 (Sep 18, 2011)

blazinkill504 said:


> is dark energy suppose to have a faster movin rate than light? i cant remember if it was dark energy or somethin else


no its not that fast. i think they found that black holes make things move faster than c. not sure about that. but the general rule is nothing can move faster than c because the faster you go, the more time slows.


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 18, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> no its not that fast. i think they found that black holes make things move faster than c. not sure about that. but the general rule is nothing can move faster than c because the faster you go, the more time slows.


id love to just be able to chill around a black hole and just look at that crazy shit...make sure i pack some special cookie paste for that one haha come back to earth and its like hundreds of years in the future


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## Luger187 (Sep 18, 2011)

blazinkill504 said:


> id love to just be able to chill around a black hole and just look at that crazy shit...make sure i pack some special cookie paste for that one haha come back to earth and its like hundreds of years in the future


the you could have ape sex!


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 18, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> the you could have ape sex!


hahahahaha if that was the case dude im findin me another planet to go hang out on. wait till the sun ballons up so saturns moon can support life. i think we got the shit end of the deal dude we could be livin on a mood orbitin a amazin planet


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## tyler.durden (Sep 18, 2011)

blazinkill504 said:


> id love to just be able to chill around a black hole and just look at that crazy shit...make sure i pack some special cookie paste for that one haha come back to earth and its like hundreds of years in the future


You get your wish. Smoke a bowl and trip to this:

[video=youtube;5feVWB1SY-Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5feVWB1SY-Y[/video]


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## Luger187 (Sep 18, 2011)

blazinkill504 said:


> hahahahaha if that was the case dude im findin me another planet to go hang out on. wait till the sun ballons up so saturns moon can support life. i think we got the shit end of the deal dude we could be livin on a mood orbitin a amazin planet


yeah that would be crazy if we found life on a moon!


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 18, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> yeah that would be crazy if we found life on a moon!


to me thats the best places to look for life and how it becomes life esp in our solar system and we got atleast 3 that scientists said can and eventually support life if they already arent now. sucks we cant drill through the miles and miles of ice on them moons to check an see :/


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 18, 2011)

tyler.durden said:


> You get your wish. Smoke a bowl and trip to this:
> 
> [video=youtube;5feVWB1SY-Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5feVWB1SY-Y[/video]


nice! i dont wanna fall in that bitch tho haha i perfer not to become a noodle


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## mindphuk (Sep 18, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> No I'm just saying I thought it was funny. I mean your saying many christians have no idea how the world is expanding, but we do. I mean it was a Christian who discovered the Doppler effect, so I'm pretty sure many Christians know the universe is expanding.
> 
> 
> And you know what I meant when I said world (I think).


Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that Christian Doppler was religious? 




Hepheastus420 said:


> Hey Luger I'm curious can you explain how the universe is expanding? Like what is it expanding into? Isn't the universe compressed, so what is all around the universe? Is it dark energy? Or is there nothing and the universe is simply just existing alone and expanding alone without anything surrounding it? I'm pretty sure they haven't discovered anything to answer my questions... Right?
> 
> Looking back at these questions I have to say they don't really make sense but it would be cool if you can understand what I'm asking.


Asking what it is expanding into is a meaningless question. All of space is expanding, there's no space beyond space. That is unless you are talking about higher dimensions, then that is probably what we are expanding into. M-theory posits that a universe is created from the immense energy released when two branes collide. This is what we would call a big bang event.


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## sen.c (Sep 19, 2011)

> no. they tell you there is something making the universe expand. they call it dark energy. id like to know your explanation for why it is expanding.
> how many christians have absolutely no idea but proclaim god is real?


So it is expanding, let's call it Dark Energy. As I have said before human nature is to assign something a value to feel they understand it. While we are at it let's go ahead and throw in some Dark Matter that they 
don't know anything about and maybe there will be a "Dark Planet" full of "Ancient Aliens" that live an abundantly "Dark Life."



> so science is only good when it benefits you? but when it goes against your belief in god, its a wasteful thing?


There you go putting words in my mouth and spinning a statement again. If you noticed I said HUMANITY. By the way, yes there are plenty of wasteful things that science does that will never benefit humanity
but it goes back to another statement I said and that is PRIDE.



> yes. as i explained, maybe we dont understand some things yet, but that does not mean they are unexplainable.


Sounds like your trying to sell off an empty wagon there buddy. I would love to see a stock broker try and sell based off of that means of thinking. By the way if something is unexplainable then that is exactly what it is, until the issue has been explained and backed up with data and can be reproduced in a controlled enviroment it is unexplainable.



> it is not mans nature to survive at all costs. a man will gladly die for something they believe in, if the belief is strong enough. if their beliefs are bigger than themselves and they believe god will reward them for sticking up for him, they have little problem dying. heaven is coming, after all


You are right, perhaps it is my fault by not being more in depth and explaining myself better about this statement. However, I bet the old suicide bomber right as he pushes the button thinks "I hope I'm right but by that point it's too late."


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 19, 2011)

So you demand absolute undeniable proof of everything in the field of science before you accept it yet have a completely different set of standards for determining the validity of your own faith?

Inconsistent much?


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## sen.c (Sep 19, 2011)

> So you demand absolute undeniable proof of everything in the field of science before you accept it yet have a completely different set of standards for determining the validity of your own faith?
> 
> Inconsistent much?


Yep, sure do. If Science is going to teach children what they do and put it out there as true I sure do. What makes it different for Science to indoctrinate children and deem them failures if they refuse to believe or question the validity 
of scientific claims that are questionable? Oh, I get it because science is not a religion right. My faith has nothing to do with science, and I don't feel the need to have to validate anything rather just have faith after all that is all that I am asked to do is have faith in my religion.

My religion has nothing to do with your science, so the standards don't play into it. That is the problem with you, everything you don't understand you try and make it science and it is not. The mindset like yours is exactly why there is the seperation of church and state. Contrary to popular belief the seperation has nothing to do with the government trying to protect anyone it was put in place to protect us religious folk from the government trying to institute a government ran religion, kinda like science.

Pride, that's all it is.


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 19, 2011)

sen.c said:


> Yep, sure do. If Science is going to teach children what they do and put it out there as true I sure do. What makes it different for Science to indoctrinate children and deem them failures if they refuse to believe or question the validity
> of scientific claims that are questionable? Oh, I get it because science is not a religion right. My faith has nothing to do with science, and I don't feel the need to have to validate anything rather just have faith after all that is all that I am asked to do is have faith in my religion.
> 
> My religion has nothing to do with your science, so the standards don't play into it. That is the problem with you, everything you don't understand you try and make it science and it is not. The mindset like yours is exactly why there is the seperation of church and state. Contrary to popular belief the seperation has nothing to do with the government trying to protect anyone it was put in place to protect us religious folk from the government trying to institute a government ran religion, kinda like science.
> ...


dude are you fuckin dense? so science just says its science and gives no proof? lmao no that sounds like your religion boss and i dont see how you cant realize that. they tell you all you need is faith for the simple fact that they cant give you any proof. where exactly is science callin kids failures? the difference between questionable science and questionable religion is that we can answer the scientific questions this day, but we cant do that with religion cause god apparently doesnt wanna come down and hang out with us...well he did a long time ago, but he isnt gonna come back till he destorys us. im pretty sure the standard in science of gettin answers is the standard to figurin anything out bro. you go step by step to figure out the answer. if religion says its true and you want facts or evidence...its faith bro you gotta have faith. if you went to buy a used car from a random person and you asked to see how it drove and he was like nah its good dude have faith its good are you?

the fear of death is soo great in ppl that they will clinch onto any kinda god or hope they can for an afterlife that you dont realize the dumb shit thats sittin right in front of your face.


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## cannabineer (Sep 19, 2011)

sen.c said:


> Yep, sure do. If Science is going to teach children what they do and put it out there as true I sure do. What makes it different for Science to indoctrinate children and deem them failures if they refuse to believe or question the validity
> of scientific claims that are questionable?


Science with a capital S? Like Big Tobacco? You imply a collective where none exists. Science isn't a priesthood governing and guarding select approved truths stamped Disseminate. I get a bit distressed when I see yet another indicator that people suspect a conspiracy.
I will grant that there are scientists, both credentialed and self-styled (and both have a valid claim to pursuing science) who will try to sell "Science" as the new arbiter of all manner of truth. These are the prideful ones, and as a (retired) scientist myself I will have very little to do with them. They overreach.
Proper honest science has very little traction in dealing with matters of spirit. Yes, sparks fly when simple science-reinforced common sense comes up against details of fundamentalist doctrine (favorites: Noah's world flood, Methuselah's age) and, all in all, it's fun to watch. It's also fun to discuss these matters here in RIU's tame version of Thunderdome.
But at post's end we all need to take a deep breath, suitably fortified, and remember that all this falls under both a supercategory and a recommended procedure.
1) Toke.
2) Talk.
cheers 'neer


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## gfreeman (Sep 19, 2011)

Argueing on the internet is very much like participating in the special olympics. Event though you've won, your still considered a fucking retard. .....

In Saying that i hope none of you take this personally, but I know all of you will. Theres the left who say nay to the existance in God, then theres the right, Who say is you sont believe than you aint right..

Than theres the middle, the indifferent, those who know what they know and believe what they believe and simply reply no comment to those who seek to talk about our spirituality. I dont care if your atheist or christian, agnostic or johovahs witness, Either way i beleive the true judge of character is your heart. Your actions, and the way you live your life. You can talk all this shit about whatever ou believe in, but when it comes down to i, if your heart is full of hate and anger than who cares what you believe to be real. The reality is we only live once and if we cant treat each other with the love, respect and dignity we all deserve than perhaps your not understanding the reality of life.

.....tis all.


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## cannabineer (Sep 19, 2011)

So what exactly is the point of your post? In the first half I see a pair of casual insults, one of which contains a pre-dismissal because if someone replies it's because I'm taking it personally. Nice. You've set up a no-winner.

And yet I respond. Retarded, or refusing intimidation? You choose.

I do accept your point about reality however. Yes, there is a certain escape from real life involved in logging onto a drug-growers' website, heading for the Off Topic area, congregating at the Let's Argue about the BIG Things subforum and joining the cluckfest. But in the end, they're OUR Special Olympics. 
Welcome to our Thunderdome. You have seconds to get the chainsaw running...
cheers 'neer


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## gfreeman (Sep 19, 2011)

well like i said, no insult intended. 
Ive just seen some of the same users, argueing the same thing, for over a couple months now. afterall this is a pot culture forum, but im not mad or upset or anything. I just wonder why people choose to troll eachother online about shit.

Seems more like a powertrip/pride issue than a real, lets discuss this intellectually and perhaps learn from each other. You guys become like politicians and start attacking each other like "just because your views on spirituality are different from mine im going to take this as an excuse to disrespect, discredit and defame you in anyway possible. Your opposition to my beliefs shall be counter with my opposition to your credibility as a knowledgeable person.

I mean because honestly, when all is said and done and youve argued your point and theyve argued theres, all you guys take away from this is anger and hate towards one another. And really if i were to get into my beliefs about there is no god, im sure the god believers would take it personally, seeing as they believe in that god. Honestly Idk why i even bothered to come in here. lol.


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## gfreeman (Sep 19, 2011)

*fires up chainsaw* 
so be it, im here.


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## gfreeman (Sep 19, 2011)

And thats a perfect analogy, a thunderdome. Lets go to a 'Thunderdome' to 'discuss' our 'spirituality'. Great! Thats the exact kind of place i need to learn about God, in a hostile enviroement of fueding MEN. awesome analogy!


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## cannabineer (Sep 19, 2011)

gfreeman said:


> *fires up chainsaw*
> so be it, im here.


ohhhh dude, it STARTED. Suddenly my Daffy Duck hammer isn't King o' the Dome any more ... 
cheers 'neer


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## gfreeman (Sep 19, 2011)

dude, daffy duck hammer always trumps chainsaw! seriously bro youve never watched cartoons!?


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## cannabineer (Sep 19, 2011)

gfreeman said:


> well like i said, no insult intended.
> Ive just seen some of the same users, argueing the same thing, for over a couple months now. afterall this is a pot culture forum, but im not mad or upset or anything. I just wonder why people choose to troll eachother online about shit.


I cannot speak for any others, but in my case boredom and isolation (in meatspace) have much to do with it. That and a refined sense of not taking myself seriously.
cheers 'neer


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## cannabineer (Sep 19, 2011)

gfreeman said:


> dude, daffy duck hammer always trumps chainsaw! seriously bro youve never watched cartoons!?


My anvil's ankle holster broke.
cheers 'neer


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## sen.c (Sep 19, 2011)

> where exactly is science callin kids failures?


Not dense as you I guess but what can you expect from the Louisiana public school system. I feel sorry for the kids who's parents can't afford private school over there.

Every Science class in America says you are a failure if you don't agree with their beliefs. Sure are there things in Science that are true and worth learning but go ahead 
on a multiple choice test and answer there theories aren't true and see if you pass.



> the difference between questionable science and questionable religion is that we can answer the scientific questions this day, but we cant do that with religion cause god apparently doesnt wanna come down and hang out with us


Yeah well you gonna have to review that answer because there are still a ton of questions that science can't answer "This Day."



> the fear of death is soo great in ppl that they will clinch onto any kinda god or hope they can for an afterlife that you dont realize the dumb shit thats sittin right in front of your face.


I don't fear death, it is something we all are going to do not much chance of getting around it. 



> Proper honest science has very little traction in dealing with matters of spirit. Yes, sparks fly when simple science-reinforced common sense comes up against details of fundamentalist doctrine (favorites: Noah's world flood, Methuselah's age) and, all in all, it's fun to watch. It's also fun to discuss these matters here in RIU's tame version of Thunderdome.
> But at post's end we all need to take a deep breath, suitably fortified, and remember that all this falls under both a supercategory and a recommended procedure


I can see where you are coming from, and understand. The problem is as you stated the overreaching that is becoming more and more prevelant. I enjoy certian aspects of science and excelled in certian areas but there is always a certian few people that like to dictate their theories as law and that is where the rubber should meet the road when it comes to questioning the validity of a claim.

I have no problem whatsoever in someone not believeing in the God I believe in but, when someone tells me I am stupid, close minded or so on then that is where the problems start. You have the right to believe what ever you want but don't ask the question if you don't want the answer. I have never been accused of being politically correct and telling people what they want to hear. With that said believe what you want but don't belittle me for doing what I do it's my right.


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## Luger187 (Sep 19, 2011)

sen.c said:


> So it is expanding, let's call it Dark Energy. As I have said before human nature is to assign something a value to feel they understand it. While we are at it let's go ahead and throw in some Dark Matter that they
> don't know anything about and maybe there will be a "Dark Planet" full of "Ancient Aliens" that live an abundantly "Dark Life."


so should we not have a name for the force? should we not have a name for dark matter, which we know is there because we can detect it? sure we dont know what they are or how it works, but we know they are there. we apply names so people dont have to say 'that force that makes the universe expand'



> There you go putting words in my mouth and spinning a statement again. If you noticed I said HUMANITY. By the way, yes there are plenty of wasteful things that science does that will never benefit humanity
> but it goes back to another statement I said and that is PRIDE.


so we should just quit doing science? i dont get what you are trying to say



> Sounds like your trying to sell off an empty wagon there buddy. I would love to see a stock broker try and sell based off of that means of thinking. By the way if something is unexplainable then that is exactly what it is, until the issue has been explained and backed up with data and can be reproduced in a controlled enviroment it is unexplainable.


yes, and how do you explain previously unexplained things? by figuring it out with science...
btw in the other post, i meant unexplainable as in never being able to be explained.



> ]You are right, perhaps it is my fault by not being more in depth and explaining myself better about this statement. However, I bet the old suicide bomber right as he pushes the button thinks "I hope I'm right but by that point it's too late."


maybe a few i guess. but they still do it because their spiritual beliefs over ride that thought


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## Luger187 (Sep 19, 2011)

sen.c said:


> Yep, sure do. If Science is going to teach children what they do and put it out there as true I sure do.


sounds a lot like religion. except with religion you cant question the beliefs.



> What makes it different for Science to indoctrinate children and deem them failures if they refuse to believe or question the validity of scientific claims that are questionable?


kids are taught to question everything in science. if the kid has a better theory than the current one, im sure they wouldnt be put down because of it



> Oh, I get it because science is not a religion right.


correct. what makes you think it is?



> My faith has nothing to do with science, and I don't feel the need to have to validate anything rather just have faith after all that is all that I am asked to do is have faith in my religion.


yeah because if you questioned it, you probably wouldnt believe. why else do you think they have that faith rule?



> My religion has nothing to do with your science, so the standards don't play into it.


any and all beliefs should be questioned. religion doesnt get special rules where science doesnt apply.



> That is the problem with you, everything you don't understand you try and make it science and it is not.


science is how we understand the world. in order to understand something, you apply science to it. otherwise you have no basis for what is real or made up.



> The mindset like yours is exactly why there is the seperation of church and state.


if we wanted to eradicate religion by using government, i guess. its also so one religion isnt supported by the government over others.



> Contrary to popular belief the seperation has nothing to do with the government trying to protect anyone it was put in place to protect us religious folk from the government trying to institute a government ran religion, kinda like science.


why do you think science is a religion?! you must be joking.



> Pride, that's all it is.


what?


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## diesel15 (Sep 19, 2011)

imean, idont really care anymore, thats why im not really sayin nuffin. but look people if you want to see proof of God's existence, the only thing yall have to do is open your eyes and look. its that simple, so don't think too hard about it. but ibetchu most wont get it.


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## diesel15 (Sep 19, 2011)

you ya own man so dont follow the majority on their quest. you gota go your own way to your own destination and following them is just a big inconvenience to you because, in the end it was their quest. you was taggin along


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## Luger187 (Sep 19, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> imean, idont really care anymore, thats why im not really sayin nuffin. but look people if you want to see proof of God's existence, the only thing yall have to do is open your eyes and look. its that simple, so don't think too hard about it. but ibetchu most wont get it.


the more i open my eyes to the world, the less i see god. the more i look, the more i realize there is no reason to believe


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## mindphuk (Sep 19, 2011)

What is this proof you expect us to see? My guess is some sort of personal revelation, not empirical proof. What do you say to all of the non-believers that were once very pious? I know people that went to seminary that now are atheists. It seems that deconversion happens much more than people give credit. 



diesel15 said:


> imean, idont really care anymore, thats why im not really sayin nuffin. but look people if you want to see proof of God's existence, the only thing yall have to do is open your eyes and look. its that simple, so don't think too hard about it. but ibetchu most wont get it.


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## Heisenberg (Sep 19, 2011)

sen.c said:


> Every Science class in America says you are a failure if you don't agree with their beliefs. Sure are there things in Science that are true and worth learning but go ahead
> on a multiple choice test and answer there theories aren't true and see if you pass.


This is an accusation against out education process, not science. Math also fails you if you don't learn the material. Is math simply a belief? Only if you conflate different contextual meanings to the word belief. It has been clearly shown that science welcomes, in fact depends on, dispute.

"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." - Carl Sagan





> Yeah well you gonna have to review that answer because there are still a ton of questions that science can't answer "This Day."


Yes, science is not omniscient, and neither is religion. In caparison, science answers much more than religion. Religion has answered the same things, incorrectly, for years. Religion has no way to keep up with modern knowledge and offer relevance, and your only recourse is to attack science.



> I can see where you are coming from, and understand. The problem is as you stated the overreaching that is becoming more and more prevelant. I enjoy certian aspects of science and excelled in certian areas but there is always a certian few people that like to dictate their theories as law and that is where the rubber should meet the road when it comes to questioning the validity of a claim.


Yet religious claims, which you support, offer no answers to the question of validity. These claims are very specific and often entail prejudice, guilt and racism. For these claims you you grant a pass to validation and offer no explanation other than faith. 



> I have no problem whatsoever in someone not believeing in the God I believe in but, when someone tells me I am stupid, close minded or so on then that is where the problems start. You have the right to believe what ever you want but don't ask the question if you don't want the answer. I have never been accused of being politically correct and telling people what they want to hear. With that said believe what you want but don't belittle me for doing what I do it's my right.


I am sorry if you don't like an intelligent response to your ridiculous and contemptible beliefs, but take it up with reality. The belittlement is derived from your own words and ideas. The only way you can struggle through a defense is if you misrepresent the opposition, engage in a double standard, and enclose a false disclaimer. Your entire debate style depends on tricks, manipulation and insults wrapped up in a song and dance routine that often includes the hurt card as an encore.


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 19, 2011)

blazinkill504 said:


> the fear of death is soo great in ppl that they will clinch onto any kinda god or hope they can for an afterlife that you dont realize the dumb shit thats sittin right in front of your face.


That's not true, I personally believe I will just go to my grave and that's it. So I don't know where you pulled that one out of. oh it's crazy how people automatically think all religious people follow a religion based on fear.


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## Heisenberg (Sep 19, 2011)

Hepheastus420 said:


> That's not true, I personally believe I will just go to my grave and that's it. So I don't know where you pulled that one out of. oh it's crazy how people automatically think all religious people follow a religion based on fear.


Have you yourself not asserted the idea that atheists do bad things in the absence of fear of god?


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## diesel15 (Sep 19, 2011)

your lookin too hard. seeing proof is so simple that its overlooked in everyday life. its not what your lookin for.. its what your lookin at. just clear your mind. look. and observe. No thoughts. focus on seeing/looking.. NUFFIN ELSE not even blankin or breathin or NOTHIN but incorporate it. understand it. and it'll come to you givin you knowledge unimaginable. burn herbs. that'll help too


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## Heisenberg (Sep 19, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> your lookin too hard. seeing proof is so simple that its overlooked in everyday life. its not what your lookin for.. its what your lookin at. just clear your mind. look. and observe. No thoughts. focus on seeing/looking.. NUFFIN ELSE not even blankin or breathin or NOTHIN but incorporate it. understand it. and it'll come to you givin you knowledge unimaginable. burn herbs. that'll help too


So the way to knowledge is to not think? If this were true then how come a person can go into a cave and meditate for 20 years and come out without the slightest knowledge of physics, thermodynamics and quantum theory? I think you mean the way to accept religion and god is to not think and to have ambiguous standards for what constitutes proof.


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## diesel15 (Sep 19, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> So the way to knowledge is to not think? If this were true then how come a person can go into a cave and meditate for 20 years and come out without the slightest knowledge of physics, thermodynamics and quantum theory? I think you mean the way to accept religion and god is to not think and to have ambiguous standards for what constitutes proof.


no man, how can someone live and not know what life is? im tryna show what life is. God is life. if you see and understand what life truly is, then you'll see God's proof within life.


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## sen.c (Sep 19, 2011)

> I am sorry if you don't like an intelligent response to your ridiculous and contemptible beliefs, but take it up with reality. The belittlement is derived from your own words and ideas. The only way you can struggle through a defense is if you misrepresent the opposition, engage in a double standard, and enclose a false disclaimer. Your entire debate style depends on tricks, manipulation and insults wrapped up in a song and dance routine that often includes the hurt card as an encore.


I love it, what makes you big in your own mind is your arrogance and pride. You sit back on your computer and use all your big words in an effort to make you feel superior as if you are some intellectual giant but the fact of the matter in the grand scheme of things is you are no more than a blip on the radar that is time. 

Everytime I turn around you have an issue with how I go about debating, if you are such a scholar maybe you should write a book that outlines the details and rules of engagement for people to be able to debate you.



> Religion has no way to keep up with modern knowledge and offer relevance, and your only recourse is to attack science.


I love your assertion that religious people have some evident lack of knowledge according to you, last time I checked we were all people endowed with the same abilities as you. Just another pride drunken statement to make you feel better.


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## Heisenberg (Sep 19, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> no man, how can someone live and not know what life is? im tryna show what life is. God is life. if you see and understand what life truly is, then you'll see God's proof within life.


Proof is not simply having things make sense. You are observing things you can't explain (design) and assigning an intentional agent (god) and settling on the comfort that explanation seems to bring, without thinking through the implications or offering support for the conclusion. You are simply saying, life is great..therefore god exists. This amounts to a guess, and guesses can be right, but careful observation and thought suggests god is actually a poor explanation which serves to compound the problem rather than solve it, which makes it a poor guess.


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## Heisenberg (Sep 19, 2011)

sen.c said:


> I love it, what makes you big in your own mind is your arrogance and pride. You sit back on your computer and use all your big words in an effort to make you feel superior as if you are some intellectual giant but the fact of the matter in the grand scheme of things is you are no more than a blip on the radar that is time.


If you need me to explain any of my big words I can. Meanwhile how about you offer an actual rebuttal instead of abuse. I point out mistakes, you point out personal dislike. 



> Everytime I turn around you have an issue with how I go about debating, if you are such a scholar maybe you should write a book that outlines the details and rules of engagement for people to be able to debate you.


The standards of debate were decided independent of me. Many websites outline the proper way to debate, and also list common invalid debate tactics and logical fallacies. No need for me to write a book; the need seems to lie in your lack of awareness. There is nothing wrong with demanding your points carry intelectual merit beyond manipulation. If you don't want your assertions criticized, don't bring them to the table.



> I love your assertion that religious people have some evident lack of knowledge according to you, last time I checked we were all people endowed with the same abilities as you. Just another pride drunken statement to make you feel better.


My statement pertained to the religious ideology and practice of process; in it's inability to self-correct and embrace critical analysis as compared to science. Science prepares us for and propels us into the future. Science fosters progress. Religion keeps us anchored in past mythology and hinders, indeed outright discourages, advancement.


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## diesel15 (Sep 19, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> Proof is not simply having things make sense. You are observing things you can't explain (design) and assigning an intentional agent (god) and settling on the comfort that explanation seems to bring, without thinking through the implications or offering support for the conclusion. You are simply saying, life is great..therefore god exists. This amounts to a guess, and guesses can be right, but careful observation and thought suggests god is actually a poor explanation which serves to compound the problem rather than solve it, which makes it a poor guess.


iunderstand what your sayin. but ihave to ask you. do you know what life truly is? imean to the point where you could be in a crap situation, look around and say wow, life is truely great. but look, nothin is just going to happen(instint or over a prolonged time period) such as life as we know it, from single cells that came together without a master plan being in place from the very beginning. someone(higher being) would have to have commanded them to come together. imean just look at how the body works from the heart/digestion/lungs 5senses/communication etc. its too complex for it all to ''just happen(instint or prolonged)'' without a master plan to be in play from the beginning.


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 19, 2011)

Diesel, you are using an argument from ignorance. I am not calling you stupid or dumb or any of the bullshit sen.c accuses us of. All I'm saying is that it's a logical fallacy. Just because you don't understand how something could have happened naturally doesn't mean it couldn't. Biology has well established how our bodies form and why they work, from the smallest cell to each individual organs. There are still mysteries, but the foundation of human anatomy is already well explained, no divine intervention required.


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## Heisenberg (Sep 19, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> iunderstand what your sayin. but ihave to ask you. do you know what life truly is? imean to the point where you could be in a crap situation, look around and say wow, life is truely great. but look, nothin is just going to happen(instint or over a prolonged time period) such as life as we know it, from single cells that came together without a master plan being in place from the very beginning. someone(higher being) would have to have commanded them to come together. imean just look at how the body works from the heart/digestion/lungs 5senses/communication etc. its too complex for it all to ''just happen(instint or prolonged)'' without a master plan to be in play from the beginning.



I think your are correct in your point that life is too complex to be explained by random convergence. 

Imagine a rain shower falling on a sidewalk. Now imagine we recorded the sounds of the drops hitting the concrete and discovered that it tapped out, in perfect Morse code, the novel "The Stand" by Stephen King. Obviously this is within the realm of possibility, but it's not going to happen. Think of how unlikely this is, and realize that the chances of a chicken being the result of some cells randomly assembling is orders of magnitude more unlikely. Saying the design of life arose from chaos by chance is thourougly unacceptable and unsatisfying, in this point we agree.

Now we have the explanation of a creator. An intelligence that decided to give order to life and all it's astounding designs. This would seem to offer a reasonable explanation until you consider the question of, where did the creator come from? This seems to be a cliched question but give it some thought for a second. If he exists, wouldn't he himself have to be the product of either random convergence or purposeful design? If you believe he was randomly born (which is possible) then why not believe life's design was randomly born, it is after all far more likely for life to accidentally arise than for a godlike being. Or to keep with the example, it's more likely for the rain to tap out a Stephen King novel than his entire library. You have already rejected random convergence to explain life, so to be consistent you have to reject it for the existence of a deity. So we are left with creation. The creator was created, which leads to the question of who created the creator's designer? We are now inside of an infinite logic loop that has no resolve.

So do we have another explanation for life's design? We do of course, natural selection. What if the rain shower only had to tap out the first word of the novel, or even the first letter. The rest of the taps are simply mistakes that failed and although are present, get ignored. The next time it rains, we only need the next letter, and so on and so on for about 4 billion years. Do you think the rain would eventually have the chance to tap out a novel? Now, this would require a selective process. The taps themselves are random, but we would select only the taps which spelled out the words we wanted. Selection is the opposite of randomness, and selection is exactly what we find in the pressures that arise from our environment. These selective pressures have shaped life's random mutations and demanded they take a form which favors survival. With this explanation of design, we do not have to jump to the top of Mt Improbability in one leap by claiming god, but can leisurely climb up on a gradual slope of selective trial and error. 

So, of the two explanations for design, which seems more plausible?


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## diesel15 (Sep 19, 2011)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Diesel, you are using an argument from ignorance. I am not calling you stupid or dumb or any of the bullshit sen.c accuses us of. All I'm saying is that it's a logical fallacy. Just because you don't understand how something could have happened naturally doesn't mean it couldn't. Biology has well established how our bodies form and why they work, from the smallest cell to each individual organs. There are still mysteries, but the foundation of human anatomy is already well explained, no divine intervention required.


...ok man, you can believe what you want. im going to believe what iwant. they can believe what they want. he/she/shehe/heshe/it can believe what he/she/shehe/heshe/it wants. idont care its your, my, they, he, she, shehe, heshe, it's right to accept and believe what you, me, they, shehe, heshe, it wants. good night to all.

p.s. everybody, dont bother replying to any of my previous posts in this thread because idont care and will not answer them. thank you

with love,
diesel


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## Luger187 (Sep 19, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> ...ok man, you can believe what you want. im going to believe what iwant. they can believe what they want. he/she/shehe/heshe/it can believe what he/she/shehe/heshe/it wants. idont care its your, my, they, he, she, shehe, heshe, it's right to accept and believe what you, me, they, shehe, heshe, it wants. good night to all.
> 
> p.s. everybody, dont bother replying to any of my previous posts in this thread because idont care and will not answer them. thank you
> 
> ...


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## Heisenberg (Sep 19, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> ...ok man, you can believe what you want. im going to believe what iwant. they can believe what they want. he/she/shehe/heshe/it can believe what he/she/shehe/heshe/it wants. idont care its your, my, they, he, she, shehe, heshe, it's right to accept and believe what you, me, they, shehe, heshe, it wants. good night to all.
> 
> p.s. everybody, dont bother replying to any of my previous posts in this thread because idont care and will not answer them. thank you
> 
> ...


Everyone has the right to believe what they want, just as everyone has the right to put their fingers in their ears and cry when that belief undergoes critical analysis. The difference lies in those who are willing to listen to criticism and either validate or refute it. This approach to idea falsification is the essence of progress, where as finger plugging is the essence of religion.


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## diesel15 (Sep 19, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> Everyone has the right to believe what they want, just as everyone has the right to put their fingers in their ears and cry when that belief undergoes critical analysis. The difference lies in those who are willing to listen to criticism and either validate or refute it. This approach to idea falsification is the essence of progress, where as finger plugging is the essence of religion.


you make some good points im not bouta sit here and lie. its just this wii internet is so irratating pointing and typing every single little letter in every single post. idont mind criticism not 1 bit its just this wii and my batteries are bouta die in this remote and theres non in the house thats why im frustrated


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## diesel15 (Sep 19, 2011)

by the way heph, thanks for the likes iappreciate it.


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## mindphuk (Sep 19, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> no man, how can someone live and not know what life is? im tryna show what life is. God is life. if you see and understand what life truly is, then you'll see God's proof within life.


 Talking in riddles only gives the appearance of deep, intellectual thought. I ask what would this proof look like and you can only reply that I'll see God's proof within life. Very profound and ultimately meaningless. As I said, you seem to have been convinced by personal revelation, you had an experience(s) that tells you there's a god. For those of us that have tried in earnest, some for decades, and never get that same insight (although told others very similar nonsensical combination of words), what do you say to us? It becomes insulting when we tell theists that we have actually tried all of their suggestions. I would hit my knees daily asking only to do god's will and to be open to his presence. Any glimpse or feeling I ever had came from within. There is no way to distinguish legitimate divine presence with a false trick of the mind. The only way I can accept a god is if I actively ignore the strong evidence that humans are wired to have these types of experiences. We can induce spiritual experiences with very weak magnetic fields.


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 19, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> you make some good points im not bouta sit here and lie. its just this wii internet is so irratating pointing and typing every single little letter in every single post. idont mind criticism not 1 bit its just this wii and my batteries are bouta die in this remote and theres non in the house thats why im frustrated


Oh shit dude I feel ya! I hate typing replies on my phone! I wouldn't even fuck with a wii, waaaaay too frustrating to begin with!


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## tyler.durden (Sep 19, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> ...ok man, you can believe what you want. im going to believe what iwant. they can believe what they want. he/she/shehe/heshe/it can believe what he/she/shehe/heshe/it wants. idont care its your, my, they, he, she, shehe, heshe, it's right to accept and believe what you, me, they, shehe, heshe, it wants. good night to all.
> 
> p.s. everybody, dont bother replying to any of my previous posts in this thread because idont care and will not answer them. thank you
> 
> ...


Damn! You got knocked out in the third round by THE GLACIER


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 19, 2011)

tyler.durden said:


> Damn! You got knocked out in the third round by THE GLACIER









"BaGOOOOOOOOSSSHHHHHH!"


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 19, 2011)

my question to anyone who thinks we cant be here by chance is have you ever for real thought about the BILLIONS of known stars in the universe? never thought that maybe out of the BILLIONS of scenarios life couldnt have came up in one of them? and lemme say this too im not tryin to make you leave your religion or tryin to convince you that god/creator doesnt exist im just givin you another angle to look at it from cause it bein made by some higher bein doesnt automatically have to be the answer...its the most appealin answer to everyone, but that doesnt mean its correct. well get high first then start thinkin about it.


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## diesel15 (Sep 19, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> Talking in riddles only gives the appearance of deep, intellectual thought. I ask what would this proof look like and you can only reply that I'll see God's proof within life. Very profound and ultimately meaningless. As I said, you seem to have been convinced by personal revelation, you had an experience(s) that tells you there's a god. For those of us that have tried in earnest, some for decades, and never get that same insight (although told others very similar nonsensical combination of words), what do you say to us? It becomes insulting when we tell theists that we have actually tried all of their suggestions. I would hit my knees daily asking only to do god's will and to be open to his presence. Any glimpse or feeling I ever had came from within. There is no way to distinguish legitimate divine presence with a false trick of the mind. The only way I can accept a god is if I actively ignore the strong evidence that humans are wired to have these types of experiences. We can induce spiritual experiences with very weak magnetic fields.


you see heres the thing. burnin herbs can open your mind up to see reality if you use it correctly. imean, its not mentioned throughout the bible for nothin. its a sacred plant. the bible says Abraham burned herbs and God liked that, even Jesus talked about this plant. but why? i and many others can feel God's presence when we burn. whenever iburn im not concerned with things of the world. im one with God, free, peaceful, lovin. you see, being high isn't different, it just brings things you overlook or dont notice to the light where you can experience it. what your experiencing is life. God is life, so your experiencing God when you burn, and erybody loves to burn, so erybody loves God. use the herb to see life(God) and once you see life, you'll see God. but what is life? seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, feeling, interacting with the environment. once you understand these basic things, you'll know who God is. just go with the flow. no stopping and second guessin because it'll make you question your journey. just walk, listen, learn, n burn.

one more thing inoticed from personal experience, dont look at how far you got to go. look at how far you came


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 20, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> you see heres the thing. burnin herbs can open your mind up to see reality if you use it correctly. imean, its not mentioned throughout the bible for nothin. its a sacred plant. the bible says Abraham burned herbs and God liked that, even Jesus talked about this plant. but why? i and many others can feel God's presence when we burn. whenever iburn im not concerned with things of the world. im one with God, free, peaceful, lovin. you see, being high isn't different, it just brings things you overlook or dont notice to the light where you can experience it. what your experiencing is life. God is life, so your experiencing God when you burn, and erybody loves to burn, so erybody loves God. use the herb to see life(God) and once you see life, you'll see God. but what is life? seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, feeling, interacting with the environment. once you understand these basic things, you'll know who God is. just go with the flow. no stopping and second guessin because it'll make you question your journey. just walk, listen, learn, n burn.
> 
> one more thing inoticed from personal experience, dont look at how far you got to go. look at how far you came


What are the rest of us doing wrong? I've smoked cannabis for 7 years, many on these forums have smoked way longer than that, nothing.

Could you give more specific instructions?


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## Hepheastus420 (Sep 20, 2011)

tyler.durden said:


> Damn! You got knocked out in the third round by THE GLACIER


Ha the glacier that's great. I haven't fought the glacier in a while. I'm too tired today but tomorow I might build up the strength to throw a few punches his way.


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## diesel15 (Sep 20, 2011)

Padawanbater2 said:


> What are the rest of us doing wrong? I've smoked cannabis for 7 years, many on these forums have smoked way longer than that, nothing.
> 
> Could you give more specific instructions?


ive burned to just get high many times and its cool but unsatisfying. herb for the service of man is part of a bible verse so its for multipurpose use. iuse it to better myself and to gain knowledge and wisdom. also, to experience what life is, which is so hard explaining but once you get it you'll see the light. if you want to see the light you have to be open minded, brave, and unbiased. you have to get out in nature and see what God has created: plants, birds, trees, vision, hearing, sounds etc. becoming one with nature is a good 1st step. the most satisfying thing iever did while high was read the bible. the book of proverbs.


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 20, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> ive burned to just get high many times and its cool but unsatisfying. herb for the service of man is part of a bible verse so its for multipurpose use. iuse it to better myself and to gain knowledge and wisdom. also, to experience what life is, which is so hard explaining but once you get it you'll see the light. if you want to see the light you have to be open minded, brave, and unbiased. you have to get out in nature and see what God has created: plants, birds, trees, vision, hearing, sounds etc. becoming one with nature is a good 1st step. the most satisfying thing iever did while high was read the bible. the book of proverbs.


What makes you think we haven't done this? You have to understand that what you are saying is essentially meaningless, in that it doesn't explain anything to me. I understand that you've had profound moments while under the influence that you attribute to your faith, but to me these things can all be explained. The more you know, the less there is to guess about. You are being too vague and ambiguous in your explanation. I'm still not getting it.

"go out into nature and just experience life" doesn't tell me anything because I have done that, as have many others, and yet we still don't believe like you do. 

There has to be a way to explain the process to someone who doesn't believe. I've gone out into nature, it's beautiful but there is nothing, absolutely nothing, from the animals to the plants to the mountains to the rocks to the water to the very Earth I stand on that can't be explained through naturalistic means. None of this is the trademark of a creator if you understand what you're looking at. Furthermore, if nature was the standard in which we observed divinity, how would you explain things we see in nature that are completely inconsistent with human survival? Sure we see patterns and human faces when there are none, but what do you make of those patterns or faces when they're observed in things like storm clouds, hurricanes, volcano explosions, the HIV virus, Cancer, etc? How do you account for all the things in nature that exist that could kill us in seconds? Is that God's creation too?


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## diesel15 (Sep 20, 2011)

Padawanbater2 said:


> What makes you think we haven't done this? You have to understand that what you are saying is essentially meaningless, in that it doesn't explain anything to me. I understand that you've had profound moments while under the influence that you attribute to your faith, but to me these things can all be explained. The more you know, the less there is to guess about. You are being too vague and ambiguous in your explanation. I'm still not getting it.
> 
> "go out into nature and just experience life" doesn't tell me anything because I have done that, as have many others, and yet we still don't believe like you do.
> 
> There has to be a way to explain the process to someone who doesn't believe. I've gone out into nature, it's beautiful but there is nothing, absolutely nothing, from the animals to the plants to the mountains to the rocks to the water to the very Earth I stand on that can't be explained through naturalistic means. None of this is the trademark of a creator if you understand what you're looking at. Furthermore, if nature was the standard in which we observed divinity, how would you explain things we see in nature that are completely inconsistent with human survival? Sure we see patterns and human faces when there are none, but what do you make of those patterns or faces when they're observed in things like storm clouds, hurricanes, volcano explosions, the HIV virus, Cancer, etc? How do you account for all the things in nature that exist that could kill us in seconds? Is that God's creation too?


yeah man, ijust can't describe the feeling in words to where its completely understandable. it was like a complete eye opener to how beautiful life is. to what life is... iwish icould give you the feeling, because it truly is wonderful. herbs reveal to you things which you didn't notice sober because you experienced it for so many years, you overlook it now. you gotta let go of worldly tings and live your life God gave. you see were just temporarily here(alive), so you can't get too attached to livin in this earth because it'll corrupt you. we came in the world with nothin, we leavin out with nothin. but livin the way the Holy Bible says is good in God's sight and God will look out for you. ive seen it, and ive never seen God abandon a righteous man/woman or his child beggin on the streets for food. but look, some preachers are wolves in sheeps clothing and will fool people, so be careful. im sorry, ijust can't explain it right. burn herbs and listen to David Jeremiah, hes a pretty good preacher and will say things that'll open your eyes on it bit by bit. im out of juice completely so ill get to any replys asap.


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## sen.c (Sep 20, 2011)

> If you need me to explain any of my big words I can. Meanwhile how about you offer an actual rebuttal instead of abuse. I point out mistakes, you point out personal dislike


No my friend all you do is point out your opinion and try and verbally beat someone who doesn't think like you into submission. That doesn't work on all people.



> My statement pertained to the religious ideology and practice of process; in it's inability to self-correct and embrace critical analysis as compared to science. Science prepares us for and propels us into the future. Science fosters progress. Religion keeps us anchored in past mythology and hinders, indeed outright discourages, advancement.


More BS as usual, there are many Scientists that are Christians. 



> The standards of debate were decided independent of me. Many websites outline the proper way to debate, and also list common invalid debate tactics and logical fallacies. No need for me to write a book; the need seems to lie in your lack of awareness. There is nothing wrong with demanding your points carry intelectual merit beyond manipulation. If you don't want your assertions criticized, don't bring them to the table.


I am very aware that you are affraid of the possibility you may not understand something and it is evident in your prideful statements. You don't bother me in the least, am I supposed to cowar at your big words. I know what they mean but I don't feel it is necessary to use them to make me feel educated. By the way, you have been asked many questions in these past few debates that you have done no better of a job providing proof for. You see it is a two way street, for everything you bring up I can bring up something you can't prove and the same here but you like to call people out because "Science says" but like I said that's not always the case.


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 20, 2011)

Trust me sen.c, from an outside observer, between you and Heis, Heis is clearly winning the debate. It's not about using big words or feeling superior, and this is what you miss every time you reply. Language is just a tool, just like science, those well versed in language, just like science, will have a better understanding of the way to use it. 

Science has evidence, faith doesn't, which is the point.


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## sen.c (Sep 20, 2011)

Whatever helps you sleep at night bro, you aren't rocking my boat. Oh, by the way you still can't prove what you have been asked by a few of us but that's o.k. we already know the answer.
PRIDE is a tough thing to swallow, just hope that nobody makes you.
I know what convinces me and it's not you guys.


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 20, 2011)

sen.c said:


> Whatever helps you sleep at night bro, you aren't rocking my boat. Oh, by the way you still can't prove what you have been asked by a few of us but that's o.k. we already know the answer.
> PRIDE is a tough thing to swallow, just hope that nobody makes you.
> I know what convinces me and it's not you guys.


What have I been asked that I "can't prove"?


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## gfreeman (Sep 20, 2011)

this argument will be around until the end of time. its been around since the begginning of time, only, back then you were killed for questioning.


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 20, 2011)

That's progress baby


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## diesel15 (Sep 20, 2011)

let me say this, i've recently discovered this in my burnin journeys not too long ago. afew weeks maybe. but look, ive read a thread of Padawanbater and i've noticed that we don't give God the title he really has. imean, we see God above us, but we don't see God as infinite above us.... He's God Almighty. Alpha and Omega(beginning and end). He been here infinite time, which is hard to grasp. He knows all, he see's all, because He made all, because He made all. He's in control. its His world, its His rules, He's the boss. unbelievers say, man that's impossible, believers are crazy. right? but stop going by what you see, and go by what you feel in your heart.... stealing, killing, fornication, lying & others is frawned upon by anybody with sense. these are things God doesn't like. its foul to Him, so its foul to us. it's like this, when someone gets a gift or hears about someone else's gift... an amazing gift. they say no, no, ''its too good to be true''. the same, hearing about God. no, no, ''its too good to be true'' ''idont/cant believe it/you'', is it not the same principle?... well, you say ''inever seen God, where's the proof?'', ''your lying to me if you can't show me proof''. itold you about it.. now, if you wanna see it firsthand, just open your eyes and look at it. if you don't see proof of God, then your looking too hard because its clearly in everyone's faces.... like isaid before, life is too complex and in extremely great detail for it too just happen ''naturally'' without a master plan to be in place from the very beginning.

another thing also, anybody can see something somewhere, point to it and describe it to show others, and some still won't see it when its right there in their faces, and that's the truth.


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## olylifter420 (Sep 20, 2011)

totally biased opinion... if you were a believer would you side with heis or sen.c? 





Padawanbater2 said:


> Trust me sen.c, from an outside observer, between you and Heis, Heis is clearly winning the debate. It's not about using big words or feeling superior, and this is what you miss every time you reply. Language is just a tool, just like science, those well versed in language, just like science, will have a better understanding of the way to use it.
> 
> Science has evidence, faith doesn't, which is the point.


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## olylifter420 (Sep 20, 2011)

i think it should still be done, lol




gfreeman said:


> this argument will be around until the end of time. its been around since the begginning of time, only, back then you were killed for questioning.


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## Heisenberg (Sep 20, 2011)

sen.c said:


> Whatever helps you sleep at night bro, you aren't rocking my boat. Oh, by the way you still can't prove what you have been asked by a few of us but that's o.k. we already know the answer.
> PRIDE is a tough thing to swallow, just hope that nobody makes you.
> I know what convinces me and it's not you guys.



What makes you think we care about your boat? 

I am appealing to logical coherence, of which you seem to possess little. I am suggesting you take responsibility when you spread absurdity by vetting your claims. I am asking, when we examine your logic and exclude manipulation, inconsistency and non-sense, is there really anything left?

I have pointed out your double standard, intentional bias and posturing. You respond by telling me I use big words and pretending my goal is to coward you. Just because cowardice and incompetence can be found in your words there is no reason to blame me for pointing it out. Your response is to simply act like you did none of those things and then allude to me dodging questions and purposely being conceited. You can not defend your moronic statements so your only recourse is to pretend like you don't have to and then attack me on a personal level. Of course you can claim these things, but offer no support, which seems to be a theme with you. You have not progressed past high-school mentality. Chicanery may fool your brain, it does not fool ours.

If you continue to portray science as a religion, to unfairly attack science and skepticism, and to assert half-witted allegations about atheists, you will continue to be corrected and called out as the asinine excuse for an intellectual you depict.


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## tyler.durden (Sep 20, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> let me say this, i've recently discovered this in my burnin journeys not too long ago. afew weeks maybe. but look, ive read a thread of Padawanbater and i've noticed that we don't give God the title he really has. imean, we see God above us, but we don't see God as infinite above us.... He's God Almighty. Alpha and Omega(beginning and end). He been here infinite time, which is hard to grasp. He knows all, he see's all, because He made all, because He made all. He's in control. its His world, its His rules, He's the boss. unbelievers say, man that's impossible, believers are crazy. right? but stop going by what you see, and go by what you feel in your heart.... stealing, killing, fornication, lying & others is frawned upon by anybody with sense. these are things God doesn't like. its foul to Him, so its foul to us. it's like this, when someone gets a gift or hears about someone else's gift... an amazing gift. they say no, no, ''its too good to be true''. the same, hearing about God. no, no, ''its too good to be true'' ''idont/cant believe it/you'', is it not the same principle?... well, you say ''inever seen God, where's the proof?'', ''your lying to me if you can't show me proof''. itold you about it.. now, if you wanna see it firsthand, just open your eyes and look at it. if you don't see proof of God, then your looking too hard because its clearly in everyone's faces.... like isaid before, life is too complex and in extremely great detail for it too just happen ''naturally'' without a master plan to be in place from the very beginning.
> 
> another thing also, anybody can see something somewhere, point to it and describe it to show others, and some still won't see it when its right there in their faces, and that's the truth.


I think that you're confusing your subjective experience with objective truth. Do you know the difference between subjective and objective? Have you ever studied any cosmology, evolution, biology, cognitive science? You may believe what you do because you don't know anything else. Just because you don't have the understanding of how the things around you came to be doesn't mean others don't. The topics I listed above explain everything in your outlook that you ascribe to your god. You obviously do not take the time to read others posts and really attempt to understand what they are saying. Either that, or you willfully overlook the knowledge, put your fingers in your ears and stick with what you know. You are stating that god is axiomatic, he has always been. The same could be stated about the universe without god: it was not created and has always been. Neither is a very satisfying answer. The universe is much grander and more majestic than you even realize, if you have the courage to study its workings, you will have a much greater appreciation for it than you even do now. It seems like you are most interested in comfort, others are more interested in reality...


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## diesel15 (Sep 20, 2011)

im curious, what do yall think happens when we die?


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## silasraven (Sep 20, 2011)

i believe for me ill get to go to the one place i want to see the most with my transition into heaven. the pillars, neblulas and all bad ass glowing gas pockets and stars in space.


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## Luger187 (Sep 20, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> im curious, what do yall think happens when we die?


our body is broken down and becomes a part of the ecosystem. the bugs eat us, and things like birds eat the bugs, then a cat or something eats the bird, etc. plus flies can lay eggs in us. we give life to other life, just like other life has done for us during our lifetimes.

this is why i dont believe in coffin burials or embalming of the dead. i think we should just give ourselves back to the earth. we spend our lives destroying the planet and taking from her, so i think the least we could do is give back the energy in our bodies when we die. i think the peruvians do this with vultures. 

anyways... our conscious and unconscious experiences are all just brain functions. there have been many experiments done that show all of the things we do are controlled by the brain. when someone has hurt a certain part of their brain, a certain ability goes away or is damaged. we can even recreate religious or sensed presence experiences using a magnet on your head. even atheists have the experience. it is nothing but a brain function. 
when we die, our brain fails to work. we have no sense of self, no consciousness, none of the 5 senses, no logic, no memory, nothing. we simply cease to exist, and we have no reason to believe otherwise.


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## Doj (Sep 20, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> when we die, our brain fails to work. we have no sense of self, no consciousness, none of the 5 senses, no logic, no memory, nothing. we simply cease to exist, and we have no reason to believe otherwise.


This is not fully accurate. Everything else you stated seemed right on. But consciousness(some call a soul)is not purely a brain function. There are studies being done by the great Sir Roger Penrose, Dr. Stuart Hameroff, and others I can't remember their name. But time and time again have people been clinically dead, then brought back to life. While they were clinically dead, they have experiences...then get revived and they recall their experiences. Those memories are just a small example, but personally I believe we still have a ways to go to really understand what is going on.


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## diesel15 (Sep 20, 2011)

ok understandable. soo... do any unbelievers believe in the existence of spirits? ya know? people getting possessed?


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## cannabineer (Sep 20, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> im curious, what do yall think happens when we die?


I believe that I will go to the place I was before I was born - utter oblivion, nonexistence, null set. 
The principal difference is that, having lived, i leave memories of myself behind in the living world of people. I can only hope that on balance, the memories will be good.
cheers 'neer

<edit> just saw the second question in re spirit(s).
Credo: I am my meat. I don't have a soul or spirit, and I don't believe external/extraneous spirits exist to take possession of my cranial real estate. min dyou, this is my belief ... i am not selling it.


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## RawBudzski (Sep 20, 2011)

* 














.........


 *


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## Luger187 (Sep 20, 2011)

Doj said:


> This is not fully accurate. Everything else you stated seemed right on. But consciousness(some call a soul)is not purely a brain function. There are studies being done by the great Sir Roger Penrose, Dr. Stuart Hameroff, and others I can't remember their name. But time and time again have people been clinically dead, then brought back to life. While they were clinically dead, they have experiences...then get revived and they recall their experiences. Those memories are just a small example, but personally I believe we still have a ways to go to really understand what is going on.


yeah i guess i shouldnt have said it like that. the brain will still work when we are dead sometimes. like if your heart stops, they consider you dead. but you brain still works for a bit after. out of body experiences are interesting, but im still skeptical.


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## mindphuk (Sep 20, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> let me say this, i've recently discovered this in my burnin journeys not too long ago. afew weeks maybe. but look, ive read a thread of Padawanbater and i've noticed that we don't give God the title he really has. imean, we see God above us, but we don't see God as infinite above us.... He's God Almighty. Alpha and Omega(beginning and end). He been here infinite time, which is hard to grasp. He knows all, he see's all, because He made all, because He made all. He's in control. its His world, its His rules, He's the boss. unbelievers say, man that's impossible, believers are crazy. right? but stop going by what you see, and go by what you feel in your heart.... stealing, killing, fornication, lying & others is frawned upon by anybody with sense. these are things God doesn't like. its foul to Him, so its foul to us. it's like this, when someone gets a gift or hears about someone else's gift... an amazing gift. they say no, no, ''its too good to be true''. the same, hearing about God. no, no, ''its too good to be true'' ''idont/cant believe it/you'', is it not the same principle?... well, you say ''inever seen God, where's the proof?'', ''your lying to me if you can't show me proof''. itold you about it.. now, if you wanna see it firsthand, just open your eyes and look at it. if you don't see proof of God, then your looking too hard because its clearly in everyone's faces.... like isaid before, life is too complex and in extremely great detail for it too just happen ''naturally'' without a master plan to be in place from the very beginning.
> 
> another thing also, anybody can see something somewhere, point to it and describe it to show others, and some still won't see it when its right there in their faces, and that's the truth.


Why would a being that has been here an infinite amount of time and will continue for infinity, create a universe that can support life for only the smallest fraction of it's existence? The heat death of the universe will take far longer than most people can imagine. It is far less than infinity though. Why would this infinite god care about a bunch of apes running around on a rock orbiting an average star? Where is this evidence that he cares about us? It's bad enough you can't demonstrate the mere existence of any infinite being yet you give him even more attributes that you can't possibly know. 

Whenever religionists get caught up in their contradictions, the fall back position always seems to be that we cannot possibly know and understand the mind of god, yet it is the claims of understanding that create these paradoxes to begin with.


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## cannabineer (Sep 20, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> Why would a being that has been here an infinite amount of time and will continue for infinity, create a universe that can support life for only the smallest fraction of its existence? The heat death of the universe will take far longer than most people can imagine. It is far less than infinity though. Why would this infinite god care about a bunch of apes running around on a rock orbiting an average star? Where is this evidence that he cares about us? It's bad enough you can't demonstrate the mere existence of any infinite being yet you give him even more attributes that you can't possibly know.


Imo (assuming and hoping that we survive our gestation as a pre-starfaring species) it then becomes our responsibility to become or generate substrates for life and especially mind that will not require the energy-intensive medium of aqueous (or any covalent) chemistry. 
cheers 'neer


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## RawBudzski (Sep 20, 2011)

Bingo.. or Checkmate? I forgot which game this was.


mindphuk said:


> Why would a being that has been here an infinite amount of time and will continue for infinity, create a universe that can support life for only the smallest fraction of it's existence? The heat death of the universe will take far longer than most people can imagine. It is far less than infinity though. Why would this infinite god care about a bunch of apes running around on a rock orbiting an average star? Where is this evidence that he cares about us? It's bad enough you can't demonstrate the mere existence of any infinite being yet you give him even more attributes that you can't possibly know.
> 
> Whenever religionists get caught up in their contradictions, the fall back position always seems to be that we cannot possibly know and understand the mind of god, yet it is the claims of understanding that create these paradoxes to begin with.


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## Luger187 (Sep 20, 2011)

RawBudzski said:


> Bingo.. or Checkmate? I forgot which game this was.


the correct term is yahtzee


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## cannabineer (Sep 20, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> the correct term is yahtzee


 I hate it when those Yahtzee's Witnesses come to my door. I shake'm by telling them I am a devout Goshist, and do they have any spare cats?
cheers 'neer


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 20, 2011)

UNO!....uno?


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 20, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> Whenever religionists get caught up in their contradictions, the fall back position always seems to be that we cannot possibly know and understand the mind of god, yet it is the claims of understanding that create these paradoxes to begin with.


THIS! This is the point of the entire thread! 

You just leveled up!


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## Luger187 (Sep 20, 2011)

mouse trap!


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## mindphuk (Sep 20, 2011)

Padawanbater2 said:


> THIS! This is the point of the entire thread!
> 
> You just leveled up!


Sweet!


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## Zaehet Strife (Sep 21, 2011)

to answer this question, you must answer within yourself... "what, in your own mind as an individual, do you think god is" once you figure out what god is to you, weather its energy, spirit, collective consciousness, or magic... you must figure it out, and then you must give yourself an explanation on why this is the most reasonable explanation for you as an individual, depending on your life circumstances.

once you figure out what god is...TO YOU. then you can ask yourself if you think it really exists... or if you just want it to exist so badly, that you make yourself believe it exists.

in my opinion...believing in any denomination is giving up your power to take responsibility for your own thoughts, actions and words. 

god is a man in the sky- i only have to be responsable every sunday, if i do something wrong...ill just tell myself in my head im sorry.
god is collective consciousness- what happens will happen, regardless of what i do or say.
god is more powerful than me- i cant make a difference within myself...let alone about the way the world is today.

every instance, just more and more justification for living out your lives exactly as you want to live them, instead of how you know you should live them. 

in my opinion, what you need to believe in...if anything.

believe in yourself. 

yet this is the hardest thing for any human to ever do, because once you understand that in its entirety...not only do you become responsible for yourself, and everything you think do or say. but you also become responsible for the rest of everything else that isn't a part of you. 

for now that you have awakened your mind, now that you are not asleep anymore, now that you are concious of everything you do, think or say... now its time to help the rest of the world "wake up".

with great power comes great responsibility, with great knowledge comes even greater responsibility...


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## diesel15 (Sep 21, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> Why would a being that has been here an infinite amount of time and will continue for infinity, create a universe that can support life for only the smallest fraction of it's existence? The heat death of the universe will take far longer than most people can imagine. It is far less than infinity though. Why would this infinite god care about a bunch of apes running around on a rock orbiting an average star? Where is this evidence that he cares about us? It's bad enough you can't demonstrate the mere existence of any infinite being yet you give him even more attributes that you can't possibly know.
> 
> Whenever religionists get caught up in their contradictions, the fall back position always seems to be that we cannot possibly know and understand the mind of god, yet it is the claims of understanding that create these paradoxes to begin with.


iunderstand your thoughts and iaccept that, but when it all boils down to it, you either believe in God, or you dont. nothing in between. if you don't believe in God, then everything about God is false, has no meaning, and is completely useless for you(unbelievers). is it not?. now after saying this, iwill say one more thing to yall which is. NO MAN will EVER see God's light being a worldly person. but again, if anybody doesn't believe in God, then anything about God has no significant meaning for you. but we all must die, and you could be wrong in not believing in God... good luck.


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## Luger187 (Sep 21, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> iunderstand your thoughts and iaccept that, but when it all boils down to it, you either believe in God, or you dont. nothing in between. if you don't believe in God, then everything relating to God is false, has no meaning, and is completely useless for you(unbelievers). is it not?. now after saying this, iwill say one more thing to yall which is. NO MAN will EVER see God's light being a worldly person. but again, if anybody doesn't believe in God, then anything relating to God has no significant meaning for you. but we all must die, and you could be wrong in not believing in God... good luck.


isnt it possible that your god is not real?
what do you mean by "anything relating to god"? do you mean the mysteries of the universe? all the stuff on earth?


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## sen.c (Sep 21, 2011)

> what do you mean by "anything relating to god"? do you mean the mysteries of the universe? all the stuff on earth?


He means when you have God in your heart you grow to desire the things of God and not of man. 
You beging to change once you've surrendered your heart to God and begin to see things for what they 
are.

You begin to see God's character, and understand his teachings once you have surrendered. Until you have truly
surrendered you will not understand what we are talking about and what we have experienced you have no idea
because you refuse to give it up to God.


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 21, 2011)

sen.c said:


> He means when you have God in your heart you grow to desire the things of God and not of man.
> You beging to change once you've surrendered your heart to God and begin to see things for what they
> are.
> 
> ...


i mean i done did all that dude and im on the side of he doesnt exist...well atleast to me the god you worship doesnt exist at all.


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 21, 2011)

sen.c said:


> He means when you have God in your heart you grow to desire the things of God and not of man.
> You beging to change once you've surrendered your heart to God and begin to see things for what they
> are.
> 
> ...


What does "truly surrender" mean? Be as specific as possible.


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 21, 2011)

Padawanbater2 said:


> What does "truly surrender" mean? Be as specific as possible.


a bunch of ppl get around you and start prayin and you just denounce anything against god then you get dunked in the holy water again cause once wasnt good enough and then you un-questionably follow what the book/preacher says and try to live christ-like.


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## sen.c (Sep 21, 2011)

> i mean i done did all that dude and im on the side of he doesnt exist...well atleast to me the god you worship doesnt exist at all.


Well hate to tell you but you may have thought you did but you didn't because once he has you nothing can take you from his hand.



> What does "truly surrender" mean? Be as specific as possible.


Well there are alot of things. One of the biggest is to deny self and it is hard, very hard because we want so many things that the world tells us to put our security or faith in. As time goes by once you surrender to God by dropping to your knee's and laying it all out on the line you will look back and say wow look how far I've came and how I have changed. This is not maturity, it is real change in yourself and people will notice it as well. Even when you don't chastize your friends or try to talk to them about it you will notice they start dropping by the wayside. When you start changing and it is obvious they start avoiding you and not inviting you around because it makes them feel uncomfortable in the things they continue doing so it is easier for them to just not be around you than to feel the way you make them feel just being around.

I hate this saying but you see it all the time "Why not try God you've tried everything else." To truly surrender you must drop your pride, deny self, and tell him you give up and you realize that everything you have is his and he has given it to you and that you realize that you can't do it alone. Doing this does not make you any less intelligent or have less critical thinking skills it will actually open your eyes and suprise you that you never thought of things like this and that ad that is when you recieve true freedom and your priorities change.


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## sen.c (Sep 21, 2011)

> a bunch of ppl get around you and start prayin and you just denounce anything against god then you get dunked in the holy water again cause once wasnt good enough and then you un-questionably follow what the book/preacher says and try to live christ-like.


Thank you for clearing that up, now I know without a doubt you never did the above as you stated. The baptism has nothing to do with your salvation, it is simply an outward expression of your faith that God asked you to do. The salvation is in repentence and faith in Christ. No one has to be around you praying, you can do it in the privacy of your own home through a genuine heart. Only God can take a heart of stone and turn it back to flesh, not a preacher or a book. You can read the Bible all you want and that is not going to save you, it is all about your faith in Christ and repentance.


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 21, 2011)

sen.c said:


> Thank you for clearing that up, now I know without a doubt you never did the above as you stated. The baptism has nothing to do with your salvation, it is simply an outward expression of your faith that God asked you to do. The salvation is in repentence and faith in Christ. No one has to be around you praying, you can do it in the privacy of your own home through a genuine heart. Only God can take a heart of stone and turn it back to flesh, not a preacher or a book. You can read the Bible all you want and that is not going to save you, it is all about your faith in Christ and repentance.


you can tell me what you think, but im pretty sure i know what happened in my life and its pretty bold for you to be speakin on god's behalf like that sayin i didnt do it right cause if i did i wouldnt not believe...lol and baptism is the last step to you being "saved" which is what you are talkin about.


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## sen.c (Sep 21, 2011)

Like I said you are mistaken, and the act of Baptism is not salvation just a public outward expression of your faith.

This is what the Bible says about the false convert (people who think they are saved but really aren't.)

Matthew 7

*21*Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 
*22*Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 
*23*And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 21, 2011)

sen.c said:


> Like I said you are mistaken, and the act of Baptism is not salvation just a public outward expression of your faith.
> 
> This is what the Bible says about the false convert (people who think they are saved but really aren't.)
> 
> ...


so you tell me dont look at the bible cause it wont save me...then you quote it? most churches today see baptism as a means of you bein cleansed of your sins and to come out with a new life aka bein saved.


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## sen.c (Sep 21, 2011)

> so you tell me dont look at the bible cause it wont save me...then you quote it? most churches today see baptism as a means of you bein cleansed of your sins and to come out with a new life aka bein saved.


Are you serious, I never said the such. The act of reading the Bible is not what saves you, neither is the act of Baptism. I am not concerned with what most churches today are saying or doing, that is the problem most of them are watering down the scripture and trying to be a seeker sensitive church to get people like you to cough up your hard earned dough in the name of prosperity. As the Bible states you should follow through with Baptism as a public statement of faith. The Baptism is just that it is a public affirmation that you have repented the "Dunking" is not what saves you.

Keep up the good work though, your doing an excellent job of proving your depth of understanding of the scripture.


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 21, 2011)

sen.c said:


> Are you serious, I never said the such. The act of reading the Bible is not what saves you, neither is the act of Baptism. I am not concerned with what most churches today are saying or doing, that is the problem most of them are watering down the scripture and trying to be a seeker sensitive church to get people like you to cough up your hard earned dough in the name of prosperity. As the Bible states you should follow through with Baptism as a public statement of faith. The Baptism is just that it is a public affirmation that you have repented the "Dunking" is not what saves you.
> 
> Keep up the good work though, your doing an excellent job of proving your depth of understanding of the scripture.


dude you think i believe that shit? haha im sayin what THEY think not me so dont come at me like i dont know shit because in reality if you wanna take a good look at your scripture you'd realize that its about as true as the silver surfer comin here so we can get eaten by galactus.


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## sen.c (Sep 21, 2011)

Don't back up now, you made the statements.


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 21, 2011)

blazinkill504 said:


> i mean i done did all that dude and im on the side of he doesnt exist...well atleast to me the god you worship doesnt exist at all.


this is the first thing i said to you, but im backin up? lol stay on point bro c'mon


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## sen.c (Sep 21, 2011)

Just like I answered you, no you didn't you just think you did.


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 21, 2011)

ahhh im glad you think you know what went on in my life more than i do.


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## cannabis420420 (Sep 21, 2011)

hope convinces me that there is a god  or a higher power


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## diesel15 (Sep 21, 2011)

man, i'm tellin yall. we can all learn some things from sen.c, im serious. he has some powerful wisdom most people wouldn't even come close to aquiring in a lifetime. my hat goes off to you sen.c, your a true man of God.


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## blazinkill504 (Sep 21, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> man, i'm tellin yall. we can all learn some things from sen.c, im serious. he has some powerful wisdom most people wouldn't even come close to aquiring in a lifetime. my hat goes off to you sen.c, your a true man of God.


you can learn anything from anybody bruh you just gotta be receptive to it.


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## diesel15 (Sep 21, 2011)

John ch.5 v.25
(Jesus speaking)

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

it wasn't a coincidence that iopened up the bible to this verse just now.


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## Padawanbater2 (Sep 21, 2011)

sen.c said:


> Well there are alot of things. One of the biggest is to deny self and it is hard, very hard because we want so many things that the world tells us to put our security or faith in.


Remember, this is why I asked you to be as specific as possible in your explanation. I have no idea what, _to you_, means "deny self". What does that mean? I appreciate you replying back, I'm not trying to split hairs, I'm just an experimentation kinda guy. I plan on using your instructions, following them exactly as you lay them out, and seeing what happens. 



sen.c said:


> As time goes by once you surrender to God by dropping to your knee's and laying it all out on the line you will look back and say wow look how far I've came and how I have changed.


"laying it all on the line" <-- try to avoid saying things like that, again, I don't know what that means. Be specific please.



sen.c said:


> To truly surrender you must drop your pride, deny self, and tell him you give up and you realize that everything you have is his and he has given it to you and that you realize that you can't do it alone.


How do I "drop my pride"? Do I just stand alone in a room and think this to myself, say it out loud, what's the best method? "I give up and I realize that everything I have is yours [God's] and you have given it to me and I realize that I can't do it [life?] alone"



sen.c said:


> Doing this does not make you any less intelligent or have less critical thinking skills it will actually open your eyes and suprise you that you never thought of things like this and that ad that is when you recieve true freedom and your priorities change.


OK, we'll see what happens. I'm going to follow the instructions you provide exactly as you lay them out. We'll test this out and see what happens.

What if nothing happens though? What then? Are you going to say that I didn't do it right? That I missed a step? That I just didn't believe it enough? I didn't surrender the correct way? I had ulterior motives from the start? 

That's what I don't want to happen. I don't want to do this experiment and have nobody change their opinion. You say this is the way to reaching God, to understanding God, so I'm going to do it and see what happens. I want you to be respectful enough in the end, just like I will be, if the results don't pan out the way you thought they would, OK? Can you agree to that before we get started?


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## Brazko (Sep 21, 2011)

Doj said:


> This is not fully accurate. Everything else you stated seemed right on. But consciousness(some call a soul)is not purely a brain function. There are studies being done by the great Sir Roger Penrose, Dr. Stuart Hameroff, and others I can't remember their name. But time and time again have people been clinically dead, then brought back to life. While they were clinically dead, they have experiences...then get revived and they recall their experiences. Those memories are just a small example, but personally I believe we still have a ways to go to really understand what is going on.


This is some very interesting work these two have been probing into.. 

Thanks for providing the info.. I now have some more pseudoscience books to explore


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## mexiblunt (Sep 21, 2011)

Zombies? did that really happen? 
he says "the hour is coming" then says the dead shall hear the voice. I don't get at all what this is about? rapture? 
If that's the case, all the sinners over the last 2000 years can still be saved/live/heaven? when they hear the voice of the sun of god. Must be talking bout the dead who never heard the voice. The rest never died, they are in heaven.


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## diesel15 (Sep 21, 2011)

mexiblunt said:


> Zombies? did that really happen?
> he says "the hour is coming" then says the dead shall hear the voice. I don't get at all what this is about? rapture?
> If that's the case, all the sinners over the last 2000 years can still be saved/live/heaven? when they hear the voice of the sun of god. Must be talking bout the dead who never heard the voice. The rest never died, they are in heaven.


iknow, far out, right? iwas about to go to bed until something told me to pick up my bible and read. iread 7verses and something else tells me to post this verse. ladies and gentlemen, God is real. what are the odds of this?


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## mexiblunt (Sep 21, 2011)

diesel15 said:


> John ch.5 v.25
> (Jesus speaking)
> 
> 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
> ...


It's not coincidence, you could have opened any page and posted the first verse you seen. This is what convinces you? have at it. It is far from convincing to me, the best I get out of it is that I will go on not-believing untill I die. Then I will be dead, for however long until this hour comes. Then I think if all of sudden I hear a voice after I'm long dead I'' probably then be convinced and will get to live again. woot win/win.


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## diesel15 (Sep 21, 2011)

mexiblunt said:


> It's not coincidence, you could have opened any page and posted the first verse you seen. This is what convinces you? have at it. It is far from convincing to me, the best I get out of it is that I will go on not-believing untill I die. Then I will be dead, for however long until this hour comes. Then I think if all of sudden I hear a voice after I'm long dead I'' probably then be convinced and will get to live again. woot win/win.


ithink you misunderstood it. God is life, so when you don't have life your without God. when you hear Jesus voice, you will awaken from death and be alive in God, which is life.


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## mexiblunt (Sep 21, 2011)

mexiblunt ch.1 V.1
(diesel15 speaking)

God is life, so when you don't have life your without God. when you hear Jesus voice, you will awaken from death and be alive in God, which is life.



Belief or no belief. This is way easier to understand what's being said. Could john have mis-understood too? Maybe you did? I need another opinion. It's just soo vauge and wishy washy. I'm pretty sure I am alive! I feel alive! Should I turn off my tunes and tv and all other noise just in case he is very quite? litterall/metaphor?


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## Brazko (Sep 21, 2011)

Here you Go Pad, Don't forget to report back..lol

http://www.images-graphics-pics.com/signs/books/dummies/cover.asp?pic=&title=It's+All+On+The+Line&text=Finding+God+in+3+Days&text3=Experiencing+God+in+10+Short+Easy+Steps!!+Interactive+CD+Included&text2=What+if+Nothing+Happens?&book=DUMMIES&tag=2011&time=0138


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## sen.c (Sep 22, 2011)

> Remember, this is why I asked you to be as specific as possible in your explanation. I have no idea what, _to you_, means "deny self". What does that mean? I appreciate you replying back, I'm not trying to split hairs, I'm just an experimentation kinda guy. I plan on using your instructions, following them exactly as you lay them out, and seeing what happens.


Pada, I hear you. to deny self is a process that is very hard and is different for every person. The easy way to put it I guess is that the Lord tells us we should seek the things of God and not of man. So in saying that he is asking us to put faith in the fact that he has made a covenant with us and if we have faith in his word and come to him in submission and of an open heart in faith that he will provide the peace and shelter in him that we seek. Basically you have to have no ulterior motives, because he can see our heart he knows if we are being genuine or not regardless of what we do. If we do come to him as in answer his call genuinely he will take you and change you. I am really reluctant to give instruction due to the fact that this is an issue of the heart and God working in your spirit. I would just say that you know what is on your heart, as well as you know the things that you have reservations about that stir something inside you. You should make it a point to read the 10 commandments and understand how God see's them and what he is saying through them to us. After doing so I would pray to him and open up to him and tell him that you haven't kept the commandments and that you can't keep them and understand that only through the sacrifice of his son Jesus who was perfect and did keep the commandments can your relationship with God be restored.

It all begins at the Garden, when you answer the call you have to understand that Adam and Eve were created perfect and had a relationship with God. When they took of the tree at that moment sin entered the world and is severed the relationship instantly they had with God because God refuses to dwell with sin. After the relationship was severed God sent his only begotten son who was perfect and kept all the commandments to die for mans sins to restore the relationship between man and God through the repentance and faith that through the sacrifice of his son Jesus he would save you and it would restore the relationship between you and God.

A good way to look at it is as follows:

Leave all emotion and preconcieved notions out and ask yourself these things.

1. Have you ever stolen or taken anything that did not belong to you no matter how small or trivial? According to the Commandments God calls a person that has a thief.

2. Have you ever look upon another with lust? According to the commandments God calls the person that has an adulterer.

3. Have you ever taken the Lord's name in vain? According to the commandments God calls the person that has a blasphemer.

4. Have you ever told a lie no matter how small? According to the commandments God call the person that has a liar.

With that being said and that is just 4 of the 10 commandments and you were standing in front of God and he was going to render judgement upon you according to his law; would he find you guilty?

God told us that the wages of sin is death. With that being said where would he send you? Heaven or Hell?



> OK, we'll see what happens. I'm going to follow the instructions you provide exactly as you lay them out. We'll test this out and see what happens.
> 
> What if nothing happens though? What then? Are you going to say that I didn't do it right? That I missed a step? That I just didn't believe it enough? I didn't surrender the correct way? I had ulterior motives from the start?
> 
> That's what I don't want to happen. I don't want to do this experiment and have nobody change their opinion. You say this is the way to reaching God, to understanding God, so I'm going to do it and see what happens. I want you to be respectful enough in the end, just like I will be, if the results don't pan out the way you thought they would, OK? Can you agree to that before we get started?


I can tell you this, if you indeed approach God with an open heart and genuinely answer his call you won't have to worry about it panning out it will change your life and as time goes on you will grow and grow in your walk and understanding of the character and love of God.


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## nog (Sep 22, 2011)

father Mullroony with a leather strap


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## eye exaggerate (Sep 22, 2011)

Hi,

so the 'other' question is "is there a God" as per Morgan Lynn's link. It's a clever page, but scientifically one has to ask "where did this matter that I quantify come from?". The point is that all there is to see and interact with was there before you got there. All else is mere conjecture.

What convinces me that there is a God is the law of 3. Well, properties of it anyway. You see, water, as an example, is triune in nature. It is a substance that takes on 3 aspects. I can be flowing, rigid, or a vapor. Life, in case you haven't noticed, is just like that. You will be, in appropriate circumstances, rigid, flowing or vapor-like.

Next we have electricity. Positive, negative and neutral. Life, in case you haven't noticed, is just like that. You will be, in every circumstance, positive, negative or neutral. Try NOT being that way! You'd be dead.

There is a God in the sky as much as there is a God inside of you. Micro / Macro...

3 things are needed to have life. Water, energy and consciousness. You are water and energy...this is a quantifiable scientific fact...your consciousness can verify this. Energy and consciousness are 'somewhat' the same. One is a vehicle for the other.

In quantum physics, we know that the smallest of particles act differently when observed. This implies a consciousness. So this brings me to the 3-ness of my post... Consciousness is God on the macro scale. We 'borrow' our consciousness from God to be able to move the vehicle we've been given by our parents. (vehicle = body)


No need for arrogance at all. Just be and believe in what you FEEL is right. If someone else is not ready to accept a personal or impersonal God, big deal! It's their consciousness and vehicle, therefore, their choice (free will anyone?).

God sits with you, and observes... He / She / It lets you do what you want. But the fact is, you might not always do the right thing. Still, he / she / it stays with you because of...you guessed it, love.

Love is not quantifiable, it is shy like the particles we play with in labs or the lhc for example. Like fractals, love just keeps going on into infinity. This means you'll have a lot of chances to believe.


-eye


ps: this happens to be on the 33rd page of this thread... and, I like synchronicities.

pps: you have 3 brains and 3 nervous systems... also quantifiable.


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## NewGrowth (Sep 22, 2011)

Has there been any discussion of the Gnostic people? 
I like to quote Joseph Campbell here, "I need no faith because I have experience".

God to me is just a word we use to much, God truly is dead.


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## eye exaggerate (Sep 22, 2011)

...read my last post. This was a gnostic interpretation.


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## NewGrowth (Sep 22, 2011)

See like you said sycronicity . . . 
I am a very logical, scientific person. My personal experience of 'God' (once again poor choice of words) has allowed me to expand conscious awareness and understanding. My gnostic experiences have opened up creative avenues I would have never thought possible. Somehow I think a synergy of 'magic' and 'science' is necessary otherwise we are still a bunch of monkeys with high technology. Creative emergence is impossible to deny as proven by our planets short history.
Does this undoubtedly prove the existence of 'God'? Maybe not but that depends on your definition of 'God'. Do you believe in the Solar System, Galaxy, Supercluster, Universe?
In the end I feel we are only examining different routes of experiencing ourselves.


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## eye exaggerate (Sep 22, 2011)

Hi NewGrowth, I like your perspective.

I agree that we experiencing ourselves. I have had experience with 'God'. When one can filter out all the 'stuff' or misnomers we have experience. The gnostic cross is an example of this. Matter and Spirit. Soul is the accumulation of past experiences whether right or wrong. Our task would be to integrate spirit and soul. This is difficult because most people are trapped in their description of 'God'.

If God is love and love cannot be quantified then all we have is being. To be. God 'is'... and that's it.

If God is the 'uncreate' ( = uncreated) then it is simple to see that we are God experiencing itself.


best,
eye


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## NewGrowth (Sep 22, 2011)

This is a the problem from a logical perspective. 'God' as you stated can not be quantified. Therefore logically 'god' is non-material or all material omniscient. These are the only two numbers science can not measure, zero and infinity.
We have proven rather scientifically that the non-material does in fact have an effect on the material. Intent of the experimenter? 
So does it not seem arrogant to attempt to negate a concept that can not even be quantified? To me science proves the existence of 'god' with each new discovery. 
Thanks for your insight eye!
Fractals, Fibonacci, the golden ratio. There even seems to be a common design, none of them limited.


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## eye exaggerate (Sep 22, 2011)

Ha! "3" numbers... 137 also evades the scientific community.


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## NewGrowth (Sep 22, 2011)

Using two radii to divide a circle according to the golden ratio yields sectors of approximately 137° (the golden angle) and 222°.


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## eye exaggerate (Sep 22, 2011)

...oui oui! this is a dimensionless number! It is equated to the unus mundus, or, one world. PURE potentiality... the center, or, 'centre' of the lemniscate.

I should point out this happens to represent the vesica piscis as well... 222 on the left, 137 in the middle and 222 on the right. You could also call this 313 or 'father, heart, mother'...if you will.


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## Zaehet Strife (Sep 22, 2011)

and everyone will try to escape the fact.... god does not exist, god does not NOT exist....


no one knows


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## WeedKillsBrainCells (Dec 11, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> and everyone will try to escape the fact.... god does not exist, god does not NOT exist....
> 
> 
> no one knows


in the same way that flying magical unicorns that shit flapjacks dont exist, but hey, you prove they dont!!! [/christians argument]


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## eye exaggerate (Dec 11, 2012)

...elementals, that's what a shaman would know them as. The concept evolved to television and needed a form of representation.

..."gist"


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## cannabineer (Dec 11, 2012)




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## lahadaextranjera (Dec 11, 2012)

.......uh. Proof! Strong survival evidence and seeing a ghost. That should do the trick !


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## Granny weed (Dec 11, 2012)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> what is it that convinces you personaly to believe in the god you believe in , what is the one single thing that confirms in YOUR mind that your god exists and you want to worship him/her/it? .


I was brought up a Christian i went to church every Sunday and I had my own bible given to me one Christmas by my parents, I loved and was intrigued by all the bible stories,at school we said prayers at lunchtime and before we went home in the afternoon and I prayed every night before I went to sleep. I never questioned wether any of it was true as child your trust and innocence is wonderful. As a young woman I did all the things young girls do, I got drunk, got laid, and had run ins with the police and although I knew this wasn't a Christian thing to do I went right a head and did them. When I lost both my parents to cancer and heart disease my faith kept me strong and the belief that I would one day meet them again kept me sane, I was a young mum when my mum died I needed her so badly but I didn't blame god for her death instead I knew she was safe and pain free. Now my children are adults I brought them up as Christians they never went church as I did but I would read them bible stories and share my knowledge with them, my daughter is the same with her children, but my two sons decided that they didn't believe in god or any of the stories that I had read to them, this was their choice and I didn't condem them for not believing in what I did. I know god exists my prayers have been answered many times, their is no one single thing to confirm his existence and I don't need to see him,I have had a tough two years where I have felt alone, scared and have been in the depths of despair I have been besieged by pain and sickness and on times welcomed death, but through all these times I was given an inner strength to fight,a strength that I couldn't explain but it was their and people would comment about my ability to overcome what I was going through, how I could laugh and joke and keep everyone at ease and happy when they were crushed with anger and sadness. I prayed each night for that strength and I got it. You don't believe in god and that is your choice, but you should not condem them that do, I don't shout my beliefs from the rooftops my beliefs are personal to me, but one thing Iam sure of sometime in your life you will encounter god you may not recognise his intervention but it will be their until then keep an open mind and a civil tongue in your head we are all the same no matter what we believe.


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## Mister Sister (Dec 12, 2012)

For me it has been an unfolding love-affair for about 2 years now (I'm 25).

It started very slowly. I never followed or believed in religion - it seemed wrong to me from early childhood. I considered myself atheist for quite some time, 'agnostic' when I felt like I wanted to be intellectual about it.

But these days it's really been something magical, beyond words and description. Once I realized that *the 'being' that created this infinite universe* wanted a _personal_ relationship with me (and every being for that matter) is when the magic really started to happen. 

Knowing God is accomplished through knowing yourself. It is an exploration, an eternal adventure. We watch movies to instill in us a sense of grand adventure and to stimulate our emotions, but the same thing can be done internally, and with more to be gained (IMHO).

So for me it is not one event, but many series of them. Too many to recount, and too personal to divulge. Once I realized that everything is connected, even the smallest events started to appear sacred.


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## Omgwtfbbq Indicaman (Dec 12, 2012)

i'm convinced every religion involving deities are full of shit, their followers make it clear with their actions. contradictions out the ass and inability to understand scripture or excepting it as a whole is always interesting to watch. if it weren't something to comically poke fun at every now and then it would be much more annoying. hopefully society just advances to the point where adults-parents can let their kids decide for themselves, sadly since many religious folk have limited scientific understanding of how reality works, teaching kids is often supplanted with religious teaching and thats why it sticks for so long until they get the right pieces to the puzzle and form their own understanding backed by facts that are verifiable. for instance, i was raised jewish, when i was 7 i read the bible, that made me an atheist. i understood it was full of fictional pieces of scripture that were like easily observable plot-holes in a loosely strung together book about a bunch of atrocious shit. honestly, the first page is a joke, god made the earth before light? i can understand if somebody interprets it in a more literary metaphorical sense and gets values/beliefs from that, as long as they don't involve educating kids that sinners are anyone who isn't in the "in group".


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## Omgwtfbbq Indicaman (Dec 12, 2012)

it read alot like this after that Eureka! moment


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## eye exaggerate (Dec 12, 2012)

Omgwtfbbq Indicaman said:


> i'm convinced every religion involving deities are full of shit, their followers make it clear with their actions. contradictions out the ass and inability to understand scripture or excepting it as a whole is always interesting to watch. if it weren't something to comically poke fun at every now and then it would be much more annoying. hopefully society just advances to the point where adults-parents can let their kids decide for themselves, sadly since many religious folk have limited scientific understanding of how reality works, teaching kids is often supplanted with religious teaching and thats why it sticks for so long until they get the right pieces to the puzzle and form their own understanding backed by facts that are verifiable. for instance, i was raised jewish, when i was 7 i read the bible, that made me an atheist. i understood it was full of fictional pieces of scripture that were like easily observable plot-holes in a loosely strung together book about a bunch of atrocious shit. honestly, the first page is a joke, god made the earth before light? i can understand if somebody interprets it in a more literary metaphorical sense and gets values/beliefs from that, as long as they don't involve educating kids that sinners are anyone who isn't in the "in group".



...there's a lot about this that I agree with. The one brow-raiser was "limited scientific understanding of how reality works". If this were true, we wouldn't need science 

...you got me thinking about the earth before light thing. Sound. Then light.


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## Granny weed (Dec 12, 2012)

Omgwtfbbq Indicaman said:


> i'm convinced every religion involving deities are full of shit, their followers make it clear with their actions. contradictions out the ass and inability to understand scripture or excepting it as a whole is always interesting to watch. if it weren't something to comically poke fun at every now and then it would be much more annoying. hopefully society just advances to the point where adults-parents can let their kids decide for themselves, sadly since many religious folk have limited scientific understanding of how reality works, teaching kids is often supplanted with religious teaching and thats why it sticks for so long until they get the right pieces to the puzzle and form their own understanding backed by facts that are verifiable. for instance, i was raised jewish, when i was 7 i read the bible, that made me an atheist. i understood it was full of fictional pieces of scripture that were like easily observable plot-holes in a loosely strung together book about a bunch of atrocious shit. honestly, the first page is a joke, god made the earth before light? i can understand if somebody interprets it in a more literary metaphorical sense and gets values/beliefs from that, as long as they don't involve educating kids that sinners are anyone who isn't in the "in group".


Im sorry to show my ignorance but what are the beliefs of Jewish people, Jesus was a Jew so do Jews worship Jesus if not then who?


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## cannabineer (Dec 12, 2012)

Granny weed said:


> Im sorry to show my ignorance but what are the beliefs of Jewish people, Jesus was a Jew so do Jews worship Jesus if not then who?


The God of Abraham. cn


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## Granny weed (Dec 12, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> The God of Abraham. cn


You cn are a very intelligent man, you seem to know a lot about everything and Iam rather intrigued by you. 

I apologise again for my lack of knowledge so I would appreciate it if you could explain further, who is the god of Abraham?


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## mindphuk (Dec 12, 2012)

Granny weed said:


> Im sorry to show my ignorance but what are the beliefs of Jewish people, Jesus was a Jew so do Jews worship Jesus if not then who?


All of the earliest Christians were Jews that believed that Jesus was the Messiah (Christ in Greek). A Messiah is a king, literally 'the anointed one.' There were many prophecies regarding who and what the next Messiah would be like, but most importantly, he would be King of Israel. Jesus did not match most of these prophecies unless you take an extremely figurative and metaphysical interpretation of them so most Jewish people did not accept Jesus. The biggest objection is that he was never King of Israel. The descendents of these people are still Jewish while Christians mostly came from converts of Roman subjects, many of which were slaves and had an extremely low station in Roman society and were enticed by the promises of salvation in the next life.


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## cannabineer (Dec 12, 2012)

Granny weed said:


> You cn are a very intelligent man, you seem to know a lot about everything and Iam rather intrigued by you.
> 
> I apologise again for my lack of knowledge so I would appreciate it if you could explain further, who is the god of Abraham?


Thank you for that high praise, Granny!
I can only give you Biblical answers to your question, as the Bible is sort of "the book" on the topic. 
The Jewish faith shares the Bible's Old Testament (with especial emphasis on the first five books, the Pentateuch or Torah) with the other Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam.
So the God of Abraham is the deity who revealed himself to Adam, Noah and Abram, who then changed his name as a token of his obedience to this singular god. 
What I find interesting is that while the three great religions of the West (as opposed to the indigenously Asian religions, of which Hinduism and Buddhism are the dominants) share one divine center, the hard core of each would be offended by someone saying that The unnamable G*d of the Jews, the triune Divinity of the churches, and al'Lah of Islam are one and the same. 
There is also a certain tautological/circular feature to G*d's identity. "I am the great I AM", which basically goes 'round and 'round unless you're anchored to it/him by faith. 
I don't know if this answers your question satisfactorily. cn


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## cannabineer (Dec 12, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> All of the earliest Christians were Jews that believed that Jesus was the Messiah (Christ in Greek). A Messiah is a king, literally 'the anointed one.' There were many prophecies regarding who and what the next Messiah would be like, but most importantly, he would be King of Israel. Jesus did not match most of these prophecies unless you take an extremely figurative and metaphysical interpretation of them so most Jewish people did not accept Jesus. The biggest objection is that he was never King of Israel. The descendents of these people are still Jewish while Christians mostly came from converts of Roman subjects, many of which were slaves and had an extremely low station in Roman society and were enticed by the promises of salvation in the next life.


The book of Acts lists a few non-Jews who were baptized, e.g. an Ethiopian eunuch and a Roman centurion. cn


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## eye exaggerate (Dec 12, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> There is also a certain tautological/circular feature to G*d's identity. "I am the great I AM", which basically goes 'round and 'round unless you're anchored to it/him by faith.


...I'm glad you brought this up. The 'Rotundum' is a specific area of interest to me. I know we've joked about the Ouroboros before, which I give the meaning of completeness of being. I can 'see' the i am and I AM in this sense, which is supposed to be reciprocal. God 'survives' if we need Him back. So here we have man having to keep God alive by reviving Him from our depths. Abraham is said to be the 'innermost' to some. faith and Faith.

..anyway, nice post


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## dashcues (Dec 13, 2012)

Man!...wearing out my like button.
Definitely a (r)evolutionary time for the Hebrews.(OT).I think they found the boundaries of polytheistic belief,and opted for a more meaningful relationship(?).I can relate.By boundaries I quote what Neer & Eye so eloquently posted elsewhere..."The gods were petty and cruel".But a God....a God that you exalt higher than all others,well that God would be more personable to you,and might would make you his "chosen".We see it again in the Romans conversion to christianity.(not all was by sword).
Too many gods...too many cooks to spoil the pot.And now the authors only had to speak for one God.Simple.Right?(hahaha..not hardly).

Starting in Genesis we see a major clash of styles.Most notably between the tales of the enuma elish,and the writings of the (P)riestly & the (E)lohim source.Not to mention the countless oral traditions that were in circulation at the time.Too many cooks do spoil the pot.The contradictions are apparent.As we see one author try to merge these gods into a 1+deity.Creator gods and destroyer gods all together now....almost.More like a polytheistic monarchy.With Yahweh getting promoted to head of the table.For some Hebrews.

And agreeing with Eye,I believe Abram was a big part of the refinement process.He initiated the age of henotheism,by taking Yahweh out of Ur?(if I remember right).Where Yahweh was amidst other sumerian and canaanite gods. So yeah.As you stated;Abram "revived" Yahweh.And in doing so,Yahweh led him to what would become the "holy land".A symbiosis of sorts.
I'm way off topic by now.Probably have been from the start.My ole lady says I shouldn't get stoned and discuss the bible.I ramble way off course.As I'm sure by now,you would agree.

Anyway..t'is the season.Hope it's a good one.


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## Granny weed (Dec 13, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Thank you for that high praise, Granny!
> I can only give you Biblical answers to your question, as the Bible is sort of "the book" on the topic.
> The Jewish faith shares the Bible's Old Testament (with especial emphasis on the first five books, the Pentateuch or Torah) with the other Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam.
> So the God of Abraham is the deity who revealed himself to Adam, Noah and Abram, who then changed his name as a token of his obedience to this singular god.
> ...


Your welcome.
yes that answers my question, thank you for that


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## eye exaggerate (Dec 13, 2012)

dashcues said:


> Man!...wearing out my like button.
> Definitely a (r)evolutionary time for the Hebrews.(OT).I think they found the boundaries of polytheistic belief,and opted for a more meaningful relationship(?).I can relate.By boundaries I quote what Neer & Eye so eloquently posted elsewhere..."The gods were petty and cruel".But a God....a God that you exalt higher than all others,well that God would be more personable to you,and might would make you his "chosen".We see it again in the Romans conversion to christianity.(not all was by sword).
> Too many gods...too many cooks to spoil the pot.And now the authors only had to speak for one God.Simple.Right?(hahaha..not hardly).
> 
> ...


...stoned rambling is an important ingredient! lol Never to worry, Dash, we're all in the same boat! Wait, this wasn't about Noah, was it?


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## dashcues (Dec 13, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...stoned rambling is an important ingredient! lol Never to worry, Dash, *we're all in the same boat*! Wait, this wasn't about Noah, was it?


That's what I like to hear..
And I hope my post didn't come off as too "matter-of-fact".This theology may change by tomorrow..It usually does in some way.


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## eye exaggerate (Dec 13, 2012)

dashcues said:


> That's what I like to hear..
> And I hope my post didn't come off as too "matter-of-fact".This theology may change by tomorrow..It usually does in some way.


...somehow I've been able to say that what I 'know' is just my 'current' understanding. There can be room for empiricism, but life overall is not frozen in time absolute. (imo) <---yikes, that moon idea comes back.


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## dashcues (Dec 13, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...somehow I've been able to say that what I 'know' is just my 'current' understanding. There can be room for empiricism, but life overall is not frozen in time absolute. (imo) <---yikes, that moon idea comes back.


Exactly.
Life is dynamic.Our beliefs should be too.


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## cannabineer (Dec 13, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...stoned rambling is an important ingredient! lol Never to worry, Dash, we're all in the same boat! Wait, this wasn't about Noah, was it?


Well I hope it ain't about Jonah, which would mean we'd become the poster ... uhm, things ... for True Love. cn


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## eye exaggerate (Dec 13, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Well I hope it ain't about Jonah, which would mean we'd become the poster ... uhm, things ... for True Love. cn


...things from the 'IT'


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## high|hgih (Dec 13, 2012)

Well god made me, and I will go back to him. And when I die I go to heaven with eternal happiness.. My immortal soul will have wings and a halo and live up in the clouds..

Just kidding, I actually rape little girls eternal souls, right after I buttfucked their fathers in front of them as they were duct taped to the wall.

edit: lol what? sorry


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## eye exaggerate (Dec 13, 2012)

high|hgih said:


> Just kidding, I actually rape little girls eternal souls, right after I buttfucked their fathers in front of them as they were duct taped to the wall.
> 
> Well god made me, and I will go back to him. And when I die I go to heaven with eternal happiness.. My immortal soul will have wings and a halo and live up in the clouds just above the fire..
> 
> edit: lol what? sorry, I can no longer stand the smell of pure sulfur



 messin', just messin'


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## high|hgih (Dec 14, 2012)

> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That order seems more chronological.


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## cannabineer (Dec 14, 2012)

> messin|nissem


 cn


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