# Anyone a fan of defoliation to increase yeild?



## DankkAbuser (Mar 9, 2014)

Anyone ever try it and get good reaults?
should i defoliate a certain percent of my bushy plant or just leaves covering bud sites??
she still has 3 weeks left in veg.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 9, 2014)

another one of these threads? 

.............in before close


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## charface (Mar 9, 2014)

I think there is hoing to be a group of people doing side by side grows from clone to find out conclusively whats up.
The thread is recent if you hunt around you will prolly find it. Peavlce


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## jointed (Mar 9, 2014)

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/805032-stickybuds-defoliation-technique.html

Here ya go.....


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## Samwell Seed Well (Mar 9, 2014)

many but they dont have phd's certified by RIU


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## brek (Mar 9, 2014)

[h=2]Anyone a fan of defoliation to increase yeild?[/h]



NOPE.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 9, 2014)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> many but they dont have phd's certified by RIU


damn ssw...did you fail your exam?


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## stickybuds* (Mar 10, 2014)

Removing a few fan leaves in veg can really increase your yeild

Don't go pull any leaves off yet
As it don't work on some plants 
If you put some pictures up I can see if its a good plant to try this on


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

I love this shit


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## DankkAbuser (Mar 10, 2014)

Here she is


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

so you are gonna defoliate while using cfls?

this gets better and better


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## jointed (Mar 10, 2014)

Love the weight you got the light clamped to, best use I've seen for one yet. Besides a boat anchor....lol


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## stickybuds* (Mar 10, 2014)

Its a sativa dominat plant so it probably won't be a good ideal to*remove leaves and as the plants under a clf its not great (if your going flower it under cfl)

But Great job with the plant


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## DankkAbuser (Mar 10, 2014)

Im using cfls now
as soon as my tent fittings arrive
im gonna hookup my 400w cooltube
and veg with a MH for a few weeks to fill trellis i will be putting up also
and then bloom with HPS
Should i defoliate before i flip her??


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

I wouldn't defoliate per se for that plant. 

I would do some strategic trimming and pruning though. It is indeed too bushy imo.


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## DankkAbuser (Mar 10, 2014)

As in trimming leaves that are creating the mostt shade??
Rite


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

as in removing entire branches that won't yield shit anyway...rite


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## DankkAbuser (Mar 10, 2014)

Yea i already lollypopped a bit today


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## stickybuds* (Mar 10, 2014)

DankkAbuser said:


> Im using cfls now
> as soon as my tent fittings arrive
> im gonna hookup my 400w cooltube
> and veg with a MH for a few weeks to fill trellis i will be putting up also
> ...


Well vegging under a mh for a few weeks will help, removing a few weaker streched shoots
would be the first thing I would do, see how she looks after that 
And if there still too many leaves 
Start removing a few large old fan leaves, the plant may stop drinking for a few days so don't water till soil is 90% dry 
and give the half the amount of water as overwater is the biggest*misstake you can make

It will stunt the plant for a few days 

Good luck


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## DankkAbuser (Mar 10, 2014)

Alrightt Cool


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## Huel Perkins (Mar 10, 2014)

Just introduce some spider mites to your garden, its the organic way to defoliate...


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 10, 2014)

Huel Perkins said:


> Just introduce some spider mites to your garden, its the organic way to defoliate...


True, and the more you defoliate the more the yield.


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## ProPheT 216 (Mar 10, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> True, and the more you defoliate the more the yield.


So Is it safe to say defoilate, and strip away bottom 1/3 of 
The plant (lollipop). Gives you a yeald on par with topping?


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## lilroach (Mar 10, 2014)

There HAS to be a grow journal of a side-by-side comparison between clones.....defoliating one and not defoliating the other.....on here somewhere. I mean, this topic has been worn to death and I have yet seen someone do a true comparison.


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## Cascadian (Mar 10, 2014)

lilroach said:


> There HAS to be a grow journal of a side-by-side comparison between clones.....defoliating one and not defoliating the other.....on here somewhere. I mean, this topic has been worn to death and I have yet seen someone do a true comparison.


One was just started here: https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journal-discussion/809749-defoliation-experiment-side-side-sister.html


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

Huel Perkins said:


> Just introduce some spider mites to your garden, its the organic way to defoliate...


great friggin idea! 

the little guys work for you....while you relax and kick it at the beach. 

someone rep this guy!



*You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later



*


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## ^su (Mar 10, 2014)

I take the tires off my car so I can go faster. Weight reduction for the win!


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

^su said:


> I take the tires off my car so I can go faster. Weight reduction for the win!



well you are doing it all wrong...you still need tires


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## stickybuds* (Mar 10, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> True, and the more you defoliate the more the yield.


so UB do you top the plant before taking the cutting so you get 3 tops or more and as the plant was a week in flower, they root quick, this cutting is 9 days old, look how thick and green the main stem is  
just done this on a few clones


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

seriously? 

you call that a healthy clone???


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## stickybuds* (Mar 10, 2014)

The clone has roots and the main stem is thick and green, so give this clone a week and it will have 3 top shoots


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## profterpen (Mar 10, 2014)

I'm putting together an experiment involving DEFOLIATION! I'd really like all the input I can get. Please start by reading the opening post. This will be a controlled grow with 4 subject plants. 

Check it out: https://www.rollitup.org/showthread.php?t=809749


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

profterpen said:


> I'm putting together an experiment involving DEFOLIATION! I'd really like all the input I can get. Please start by reading the opening post. This will be a controlled grow with 4 subject plants.
> 
> Check it out: https://www.rollitup.org/showthread.php?t=809749



wut?!  lol

we're all there already


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## profterpen (Mar 10, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> wut?!  lol
> 
> we're all there already


 I know a Macclennan from Virginia


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

gorgeous country there. I'll live there one day maybe


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 10, 2014)

profterpen said:


> I'm putting together an experiment involving DEFOLIATION! I'd really like all the input I can get. Please start by reading the opening post. This will be a controlled grow with 4 subject plants.
> 
> Check it out: https://www.rollitup.org/showthread.php?t=809749


Pull all leaves off. They only get in the way.


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## ProPheT 216 (Mar 10, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Pull all leaves off. They only get in the way.


Lol, case solved. I believe Ben over your results. Just teasing. But seriously I do


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

I'm thinking about doing a test. I'm gonna pull every leaf off one of my apple trees this spring. Leaving only the flowers ....

wonder how big my apples will get?


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## Samwell Seed Well (Mar 10, 2014)

the fallacy is strong with this group......pulling one leaf must mean all leafs must be pulled super logic for the win


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

ssw gives another great post on how defoliation is somehow good.  

it's obvious he is a fan but presents no good evidence as to why????


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## Rocketman64 (Mar 13, 2014)

One thing's for sure- the quickest way to start the mudslinging around here is to start the debate over defoliating. Here's my two cents: I've grown hundreds of plants outdoors with absolutely no intervention from me whatsoever and they're usually the best yielding plants I could ever hope for. That being said, this just isn't possible indoors (for most growers) so some pruning may be in order to keep size where you want it or to direct the plant in a particular direction. As far as yield goes....too many variables. A couple things I know for sure: the plant's sole purpose in life is to generate leaves for photosynthesis and reproduce. The leaves cause transpiration, the transpiration moves the needed nutrients and water through the plant almost like a hydraulic pump. Remove leaves- lower transpiration- lower transpiration=less water/nutes delivered, pretty simple. Secondly, contrary to popular belief, the buds don't need light- the leaves need light. Removing leaves to give more light to lower branches accomplishes nothing but slowing the growth process down. Thirdly, and again against popular belief, leaves do not block all the light. A fairly large amount of light is penetrating through those upper leaves. If the plant isn't getting enough light on the lower branches, it will discard them and divert energies elsewhere. Now, if your desire is to keep an even canopy and train the plant for specific reason then you'll have to do some defoliating. In my experience, defoliation slowed growth tremendously but did provide for sturdier stalks and thicker secondary branches. Does that mean bigger yield? Couldn't tell ya. Does it kill the plant? Nope. Does it make the plant look all fancy and shit? Yep. After looking at the pics of the plant you posted, my first inclination is to get the environment they're growing in under control before messing with defoliation. She looks a little heat stressed but that's not a big deal. Okay, that's enough rambling, sorry.


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## JohnnySocko (Mar 13, 2014)

...I also like to start flushing with dechlorinated RO water 2 weeks into flower, that way I get white ash


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## Huel Perkins (Mar 13, 2014)

JohnnySocko said:


> ...I also like to start flushing with dechlorinated RO water 2 weeks into flower, that way I get white ash


My ash is nice and white with no flushing at all, and i use unfiltered tap water and grow in hydro!

There is no need to flush if you feed your plants right, according to their needs...


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## neo12345 (Mar 13, 2014)

If only nature had discovered a way to repair a plant after losing lots of leaves to say an insect or animal defoliating it, damn you nature damn you!!


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## FilthyFletch (Mar 13, 2014)

Defoliate to me noo.. I do lollipop my plants during veg and in flower I will selective clean up fans that are too large and cover multiple bud sites but I am not a fan of just taking the plant down to almost nothing. i have never seen this work as a positive except it does slow growth and keep the plants thin.


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## GroErr (Mar 13, 2014)

Worst subject on this site (other than maybe LED bashing - lol), everyone seems to be on one side or the other. Myself I'm in between, I've grown strains that love it, strains that hate it. Good point on the outdoor defoliation by bugs, animals and the like, I've had plants that were down to strictly colas and bud produced great bud. One strain of blueberry loved it outdoor and reacted well indoor in my last run. Some swear by it, the science doesn't make sense, yet some strains seem to like it. Do what works for you, fuck what anybody else says or thinks about it.


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## EverythingsHazy (Mar 13, 2014)

IF you let the plant flower properly (Its ENTIRE flwoering cycle), and don't cut it when you want to, but instead, when its ready, msot ofthe fan leaves and bigger bud leaves without many trichs on them will dry off and die and the entire bud will get light in new places. This occurs about 2/3 the way into flowering on most avg strains, but doesn;t really clean out the leaves until you are close to the end. That said, your lights should really be powerful enough to get through a few fan leaves.


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## Twohearted (Mar 13, 2014)

I always defoliate, and am a firm believer that it not only increases yield, but more importantly increases the quality of yield. Once a bud site is well established, it will benefit much more from direct light contact than having a bunch of fan leaves shading the nodes. On the larger of the two plants I would recommend thinning most of the little "sucker" branches off of the bottom third of the plant. Then on the upper portion remove a few fan leaves per branch from the middle of the plant. I usually do this over a period of a week or two so I am never stripping more than a few leaves off a plant at a time, this will stress them less, and actually stimulate growth in most cases, assuming the plant is healthy and has good vigor. There are some stubborn growers who refuse to ignore that defoliation is valid and useful, don't let them fool you with there closed minded negative attitude. I have done it both ways, with the same strains in the same setup, and defoliation wins out hands down.
Happy Growing!
p.s. the stickbuds thread linked earlier is spot on, follow it and you will do well, I know I did.


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## EverythingsHazy (Mar 13, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> If only nature had discovered a way to repair a plant after losing lots of leaves to say an insect or animal defoliating it, damn you nature damn you!!


Time. Nature's most powerful tool/weapon.


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## Twohearted (Mar 13, 2014)

I agree with most of what Rocketman64 said philosophically, but when growing indoors, as you said the variables are very different. Time is less of a factor, but light density or the amount of lumens(whatever you prefer), and space are much more finite. The yield I have gotten indoors is generally pretty similar with or with out defoliation. But quality is the biggest difference. How much bud a plant can produce indoors is a factor of light/space/time/pot size. I have found when growing indoors the plant will produce more leaves than in really needs for the amount of bud it will be able to produce in the space with the light available. With or with out defoliation a plant might produce 3-4 oz lets say, but the plant that was trimmed and had some of its excess leaves removed in my experience will produce more large high quality buds, where a plant that is not trimmed may produce about the same yield, but with many more, much smaller flowers. This makes trimming harder, and means that you sometimes have lots of little thin buds that are only really good for making hash. I have never had the opportunity to grow outdoors, but if I ever do, would probably just train, with no defoliation. Indoors, with most strains and setups I stand-by it being the right move, to at least increase quality of buds, if not also yield. End rant.


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## chuck estevez (Mar 13, 2014)

so much misinformation in this thread. Good for a laugh though.


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## docter (Mar 14, 2014)

if it works for pot plants. I ponder the thought just maybe children would grow faster if we removed there arms and legs?


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## JohnnySocko (Mar 14, 2014)

Huel Perkins said:


> My ash is nice and white with no flushing at all, and i use unfiltered tap water and grow in hydro!
> 
> There is no need to flush if you feed your plants right, according to their needs...


he he I was being sarcastic 



docter said:


> if it works for pot plants. I ponder the thought just maybe children would grow faster if we removed there arms and legs?


...why not: I've heard tell of a penis enlargement technique that works by cutting off 2 inches only to have 3 inches grow back... 
just wondering if would someone please post results


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## Pinworm (Mar 14, 2014)

Leaves fuel your bud production. Cut your plants up, cut your yield. Simple.


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## Commander Strax (Mar 14, 2014)

stickybuds* said:


> Removing a few fan leaves in veg can really increase your yeild
> 
> Don't go pull any leaves off yet
> As it don't work on some plants
> If you put some pictures up I can see if its a good plant to try this on


are you fucking kidding me???


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## Huel Perkins (Mar 14, 2014)

JohnnySocko said:


> he he I was being sarcastic


Right on, that shit went right over my head lol.


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## JohnnySocko (Mar 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> If only nature had discovered a way to repair a plant after losing lots of leaves to say an insect or animal defoliating it, damn you nature damn you!!


actually nature has plants & animals evolving together for example grasses actually evolved in parallel with grazing mammals, flowers with insects, et et
...still: I do believe a LOT of the shit we do here is internet perpetuated bullshit put forth by non-gardener teenie types, but I alsoI do believe there is some good to begat from selective pruning; no doubt about it...

...but gheez, even the defoliating crowd has gotta admit some of these folks are hacks...no other way to put it


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## neo12345 (Mar 14, 2014)

JohnnySocko said:


> actually nature has plants & animals evolving together for example grasses actually evolved in parallel with grazing mammals, flowers with insects, et et
> ...still: I do believe a LOT of the shit we do here is internet perpetuated bullshit put forth by non-gardener teenie types, but I alsoI do believe there is some good to begat from selective pruning; no doubt about it...
> 
> ...but gheez, even the defoliating crowd has gotta admit some of these folks are hacks...no other way to put it


Agreed, but there are hacks on both sides. 

The theory is that it doesn't work, yet more and more people are using this technique to great effect. 

Some people will not let this conversation take place on here, at any cost.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 14, 2014)

docter said:


> if it works for pot plants. I ponder the thought just maybe children would grow faster if we removed there arms and legs?


lmfao...legless linda wins the race


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## chuck estevez (Mar 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> Agreed, but there are hacks on both sides.
> 
> *The theory is that it doesn't work,* yet more and more people are using this technique to great effect.
> 
> Some people will not let this conversation take place on here, at any cost.


 You make shit up with every post. GO SIT IN THE CORNER DUMBASS.
The THEORY, is that it costs more time and money to repair the fucked up plant. Damn dude, you just don't learn!!!


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## joe macclennan (Mar 14, 2014)

nope, and if he keeps misquoting people he will be banned


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> Agreed, but there are hacks on both sides.
> 
> The theory is that it doesn't work, yet more and more people are using this technique to great effect.


Translation - "a thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong." (especially applies in pot forums)



> Some people will not let this conversation take place on here, at any cost.


And some people can't do a fuckin' search before starting and replying to a (lame) topic that has been cussed and discussed a hundred times around here!


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## joe macclennan (Mar 14, 2014)

I'm not sure why it's even _being _discussed.

I thought they were gonna turn the spidermites loose and run with it?....

sounded like a good plan to me


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## lilroach (Mar 14, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> You make shit up with every post. GO SIT IN THE CORNER DUMBASS.
> The THEORY, is that it costs more time and money to repair the fucked up plant. Damn dude, you just don't learn!!!


Chuck.....you and I agree on much, but have to ask your opinion of "uncle bens' topping" as it too increases growing time. I've charted the difference in veg doing this topping and it adds about 10 days to two weeks of veg time. I have no problem with this extra time as I just allow for it when determining when to drop some seeds.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 14, 2014)

the difference between topping and defoliating is huge. 

what is the question?


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## chuck estevez (Mar 14, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> the difference between topping and defoliating is huge.
> 
> what is the question?


thanks Joe.

ub's method is from seed and is topping 1 time. Even UB will tell you not to defuck your plant. Growing under UB's guidance , he has taught me that we grow leaves and leaves drive bud production.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 14, 2014)

sure, topping for 4-6 colas is a great way to increase yields. I think most who grow larger plants do this. 

What these other folks are suggesting is waaaay different. 

it's like comparing apples to motor oil


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## lilroach (Mar 14, 2014)

I wasn't trying to compare UB's topping to defoliation....my comment was about adding veg time and the added expense of doing such a topping.....which was Chuck's point that defoliating adds growing time.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 14, 2014)

sure, topping adds some veg time. there is no question. 10 days to two weeks minimum ime.


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## chuck estevez (Mar 14, 2014)

lilroach said:


> I wasn't trying to compare UB's topping to defoliation....my comment was about adding veg time and the added expense of doing such a topping.....which was Chuck's point that defoliating adds growing time.


topping 1 time to increase yield that has been proven and is backed by science vs plucking leaves continuously thru the whole grow? what don't you get?

and ub's tech is only done on seed, not clones. which is they way I grow.


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## CaretakerDad (Mar 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> Agreed, but there are hacks on both sides.
> 
> The theory is that it doesn't work, yet more and more people are using this technique to great effect.
> 
> Some people will not let this conversation take place on here, at any cost.


We won't let this "conversation" take place just like you wouldn't let your children listen to people who would tell them to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. Most experienced riders won't ride without one, not because it isn't a great feeling, but because it is dangerous. With very rare exceptions, experienced growers don't rape their plants for their own amusement. Encouraging Noobs to do terrible things to their plants that "stimulate growth" is a lot like telling your child to ride without a helmet because it feels good and helmets are for pussies.

PS The "theory" is that it DOES work. Proven science and professional growers with years of experience will tell you that it DOES NOT.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 14, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> We won't let this "conversation" take place just like you wouldn't let your children listen to people who would tell them to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. Most experienced riders won't ride without one, not because it isn't a great feeling, but because it is dangerous. With very rare exceptions, experienced growers don't rape their plants for their own amusement. Encouraging Noobs to do terrible things to their plants that "stimulate growth" is a lot like telling your child to ride without a helmet because it feels good and helmets are for pussies.
> 
> PS The "theory" is that it DOES work. Proven science and professional growers with years of experience will tell you that it DOES NOT.


+rep.

Going bonsai on your plants is dumb. Were here growing pot, leo's cutting enough down, we don't need to help.


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## chuck estevez (Mar 14, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> We won't let this "conversation" take place just like *you wouldn't let your children listen to people who would tell them to ride a motorcycle without a helmet*. Most experienced riders won't ride without one, not because it isn't a great feeling, but because it is dangerous. With very rare exceptions, experienced growers don't rape their plants for their own amusement. Encouraging Noobs to do terrible things to their plants that "stimulate growth" is a lot like telling your child to ride without a helmet because it feels good and helmets are for pussies.
> 
> PS The "theory" is that it DOES work. Proven science and professional growers with years of experience will tell you that it DOES NOT.


I think you're giving him way to much credit.


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## neo12345 (Mar 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Translation - "a thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong." (especially applies in pot forums)
> 
> And some people can't do a fuckin' search before starting and replying to a (lame) topic that has been cussed and discussed a hundred times around here!


Surely every topic on here has been discussed hundreds of times over? Should the forum just shut down because we can't learn anything else?

If this has been discussed so many times then why is the argument against defoliation so flimsy and incoherent, with no proof to back it up? The argument ranges so wildly in it's claims and changes daily, I would have thought that the evidence against defoliation would have been stronger than a house made from bricks?

I still don't understand why we cannot discuss this technique without it just attracting haters who feel the need to force their opinions on us, effectively ruining any sort of discussion we may want to have about it? I'm an atheist personally, but I don't go to churches on a sunday to try and force people to change their opinions!!

The latest news just in is that the Defolihaters are now saying that defoliation *does* work but there might/could/possibly/maybe be an increase in veg time, most people are focusing on the veg time as the argument.

If defoliation now does work, then I ask again why are we not allowed to discuss the subject?


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## chuck estevez (Mar 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> Surely every topic on here has been discussed hundreds of times over? Should the forum just shut down because we can't learn anything else?
> 
> If this has been discussed so many times then *why is the argument against defoliation so flimsy and incoherent, with no proof to back it up*? *The argument ranges so wildly in it's claims and changes daily*, I would have thought that the evidence against defoliation would have been stronger than a house made from bricks?
> 
> ...


We provided you proof, you chose to ignore it. YOUR evidence FOR defoil is what is flimsy and full of holes(literally) You Don't understand anything apparently. WHY do you keep yelling from your soapbox? No One is listening.


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## profterpen (Mar 14, 2014)

https://www.rollitup.org/showthread.php?t=809749

They call me Bunny


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## CaretakerDad (Mar 14, 2014)

profterpen said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/showthread.php?t=809749
> 
> They call me Bunny


And we call you Funny


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## neo12345 (Mar 14, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> Proven science and professional growers with years of experience will tell you that it DOES NOT.


At last someone with some proven science!! Hit me with it baby!!!


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## neo12345 (Mar 14, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> sure, topping adds some veg time. there is no question. 10 days to two weeks minimum ime.


Hmmmm doesn't sound very efficient to me?? 

Don't tell anyone but I don't turn my lights off during 12/12, I just cover them up!! Cost's me twice as much in electricity but I don't care!!


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## profterpen (Mar 14, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> We provided you proof, you chose to ignore it. YOUR evidence FOR defoil is what is flimsy and full of holes(literally) You Don't understand anything apparently. WHY do you keep yelling from your soapbox? No One is listening.


This one time... at bonsai camp.... I cut the seed in half and set it 72 cm deep² in hydraulic cement. With the wisdom of my Masters of Masters in Mastering the Masters of Marijuana Manipulation I drop a half drop of Mt. Marijuana Mountain Dew in the center of my monstrosity. Many moons mingled mystical on Mt. Marijuana. I meditated, then the souls of all masters past marveled in my Masterizum. My eyes opened and there it was. One stem, No leafs. On top, one 11 pound bud. 

Tested at 100.3% THC. Google it, PBS recorded the whole thing. For real dude. 

They call me Bunny


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## chuck estevez (Mar 14, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> And we call you Funny


Yeah, I'll go with that, because I keep lmfao at everything he/she posts.


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## chuck estevez (Mar 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> Hmmmm doesn't sound very efficient to me??
> 
> Don't tell anyone but I don't turn my lights off during 12/12, I just cover them up!! Cost's me twice as much in electricity but I don't care!!


 somehow, i believe you.


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## stickybuds* (Mar 14, 2014)

stickybuds* said:


> Removing a few fan leaves in veg can really increase your yeild
> 
> Don't go pull any leaves off yet
> As it don't work on some plants
> If you put some pictures up I can see if its a good plant to try this on





Commander Strax said:


> are you fucking kidding me???


If you plants only has a few fan leaves on and its sativa dom, you can stunt a plant growth and reduce the final yield a lot 
so to get good results you need someone to help or it could take a few crop before you work it out 
don't want to give any advice that results in a low yield so I want to be up front and honest as I can be


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## CaretakerDad (Mar 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> At last someone with some proven science!! Hit me with it baby!!!


http://library.ndsu.edu/tools/dspace/load/?file=/repository/bitstream/handle/10365/3141/26alr96.pdf?sequence=1

You can read right? Google plant defoliation academic study you'll be surprised at what you may find.


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## stickybuds* (Mar 14, 2014)

DankkAbuser said:


> Alrightt Cool


so how your plant ?
would be great to see some pic's


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## Growan (Mar 14, 2014)

Er, guys, I just defoliated my balls, and now my dick is at least a kilo heavier than before defoliation, but how am I gonna explain this to the missus? She was pissed when I poured bacon grease on her tits to make them grow bigger (vegetarian, see) and I think I may have gone too far this time...


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## neo12345 (Mar 14, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> http://library.ndsu.edu/tools/dspace/load/?file=/repository/bitstream/handle/10365/3141/26alr96.pdf?sequence=1
> 
> You can read right? Google plant defoliation academic study you'll be surprised at what you may find.


*"Sheep Experiment Station, HC 62, Box 2010, Dubois, ID, 83423, U.S.A"

*What sort of experiments have they been doing there? 

Leafy Spurge sounds like something you'd get from an old crusty hooker! 

On a serious note though all that study proves is that it may not work on that plant, or they have not found a technique for doing correctly on that plant. I can give you examples of defoliation and crops that it does work on such as cotton and grapes, which counters your argument. 

http://www.sawislibrary.co.za/dbtextimages/Hunter.pdf

The yield increased after defoliation, so we are back to square one! At least I can drink my wine, not sure what you're going to do with your Leafy Spurge?


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## CaretakerDad (Mar 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> *"Sheep Experiment Station, HC 62, Box 2010, Dubois, ID, 83423, U.S.A"
> 
> *What sort of experiments have they been doing there?
> 
> ...


You should actually read that study as it showed diminished cane size and decreased fruit size and I quote 

"It is possible that the high budding percentage further deprived the already severely stressed vines of essential nutrients and reserves, possibly resulting in the apparently reduced shoot lengths and canes masses&#8230;&#8230;.budding percentage was apparently directly affected by the improved light intensity resulting from partial defoliation *with a deleterious effect on its longevity and long term health.&#8221;*

They further conclude that removal of some lower canopy vegetation to improve air movement and reduce disease is beneficial as we have all said. *Thank you for providing ANOTHER* *citation to debunk defoliation.* 

Reading AND comprehension are very helpful skills for learning, good luck to you.


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## CaretakerDad (Mar 14, 2014)

Hey Neo I just read your signature, perhaps you should crouch down, get down on your knees, put your head on my knees and lean forward. Be careful of your teeth, I have a 4 gage Prince Albert and a full Jacobs Ladder. kiss-ass


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## chuck estevez (Mar 14, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> You should actually read that study as it showed diminished cane size and decreased fruit size and I quote
> 
> "It is possible that the high budding percentage further deprived the already severely stressed vines of essential nutrients and reserves, possibly resulting in the apparently reduced shoot lengths and canes masses&#8230;&#8230;.budding percentage was apparently directly affected by the improved light intensity resulting from partial defoliation *with a deleterious effect on its longevity and long term health.&#8221;*
> 
> ...


 Oh, NO, even better, Read the conclusion at the bottom of his own link,lmfao. He just keeps making himself look stupid and I rather enjoy it.


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## Growan (Mar 14, 2014)

If you pluck all the flowers off a potato plant it encourages tuber growth and therefore Is bemeficial to overall yield. Nobody does it now, but pre mechanization it was a real job for plebs. No shit.
All plants react in slightly different ways. Don't pick the flowers off your weed, cos yield will suffer.


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## neo12345 (Mar 14, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> Reading AND comprehension are very helpful skills for learning


What is it with you guys and your selective reading? Did you totally miss the part where it said that 33% defoliation increased the grape mass? Meaning that the yield increased.

Who cares about about a plants long term health once you've butchered the buds from them, what do you do put them outdoors so they can spend their last few moments with the sun on their stalks?? I'm not sure trying to re veg them after harvest would meet with the efficiency Police's approval either, it may well add more than 2-3 weeks to the veg time.


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## chuck estevez (Mar 14, 2014)

*It is clear that the early removal of highly active, newly
matured leaves will deprive the vine of essential nutrients,
with a deleterious effect on its longevity and health*. The even
defoliation applied in this study over the whole grapevine
canopy was, however, too severe and is not recommended as
a canopy management practice. It is, however, essential that
the leaves of the grapevine be maximally exploited to benefit
vegetative as well as reproductive growth during the growth
season. The present results, together with previous results,
suggest that an even removal of 33% of leaves opposite and
below bunches may be applied during the period from
flowering or berry set to pea size. The results further suggest
than in practice an even partial defoliation of 33% from as
early as pea size may be safely applied to the lower half of the
grapevine canopy. This will not only facilitate the prevention
of the potentially deleterious effects of excessive vegetative
growth and a dense canopy-interior, but improve the canopy
microclimate and stimulate metabolic activity and the contribution
of photosynthetates to the developing berry. This, as
well as the effect of partial defoliation on fruit quality, is
currently being investigated further.
An improved canopy microclimate to secure the maximum
photosynthetic activity of leaves as well as fruit
development before pea size should be obtained by other
canopy management practices such as suckering


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## chuck estevez (Mar 14, 2014)

NEO, your study says NOT to pull leaves until the fruit is at least pea size. This goes against everything you have been claiming,RIGHT?


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## lilroach (Mar 14, 2014)

I'm a keep the leaves on the plant grower. Click on my signature link to my grows and you'll see how a combination of Uncle Ben's topping along with keeping the leaves on...how it looks. My plants are not award winning, but they ain't shabby either.

I say this because of all the photos I've seen of "successfully" defoliated plants, and I am biased, I feel that I consistently have healthier plants than those that defoliate.

As I said....I'm biased. Everyone feels their kids are great looking, and this is no different.


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## thick....alan thicke (Mar 14, 2014)

Growan said:


> Er, guys, I just defoliated my balls, and now my dick is at least a kilo heavier than before defoliation, but how am I gonna explain this to the missus? She was pissed when I poured bacon grease on her tits to make them grow bigger (vegetarian, see) and I think I may have gone too far this time...




I"m big on UB's method from seed. Done it, works great.

Nuff said. Now about those balls? Can i get that at amazon.ca? I want balls of fire too. that way, all the hot broads in my building will wan to f$ck me! Yeah that"s it that"s the ticket........


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## dopeydog (Mar 15, 2014)

you just won post of the day!


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## joe macclennan (Mar 15, 2014)

lilroach said:


> I say this because of all the photos I've seen of "successfully" defoliated plants, and I am biased,
> .


agreed


lilroach said:


> I say this because of all the photos I've seen of "successfully" defoliated plants, and I am biased,
> 
> As I said....I'm biased. Everyone feels their kids are great looking, and this is no different.


very true


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## stickybuds* (Mar 15, 2014)

Growan said:


> If you pluck all the flowers off a potato plant it encourages tuber growth and therefore Is bemeficial to overall yield. Nobody does it now, but pre mechanization it was a real job for plebs. No shit.
> All plants react in slightly different ways. Don't pick the flowers off your weed, cos yield will suffer.


In early flower, if u have to many bud sites it's good to remove weaker shoots/buds sites, as this gives you a higher yeild and larger cola's in late flower
but has to be done right to give the this result


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## chuck estevez (Mar 15, 2014)

NEO??


<span style="color:#008000;"><font size="5">[video=youtube;e2KVj2vVxUs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2KVj2vVxUs[/video]


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## joe macclennan (Mar 15, 2014)

stickybuds* said:


> In early flower, if u have to many bud sites it's good to remove weaker shoots/buds sites, as this gives you a higher yeild and larger cola's in late flower
> but has to be done right to give the this result


right...this is what we have been saying all along. Now you are claiming this is defoliation instead of plucking all the leaves? 

If so you are changing your story.

and the only way you can do it wrong would be to go too high up the stem or take too many branches...not really rocket science. 

clear the lower third of all budsites. Leaving the leaves if possible. and also clear all sucker branches.


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## cat of curiosity (Mar 15, 2014)

i defoliated a plant, let me know what you think?

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/813672-defoliating-extra-yield-right.html


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## cat of curiosity (Mar 15, 2014)

i'm just playin, do what you want to do. i'lll watch and learn.


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## chuck estevez (Mar 15, 2014)

Quote from growweedeasy

I DO NOT lollipop and advice strongly against it. I use defoliation to skillfully and artfully prepare plants during the vegetative stage, so that lollipopping becomes completely unnecessary.


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## stickybuds* (Mar 15, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> right...this is what we have been saying all along. Now you are claiming this is defoliation instead of plucking all the leaves?
> 
> If so you are changing your story.
> 
> ...


have you read my diary or know anything about the way I grow, for a few years I grow weed by myself, not looked it up on line or had a single mate that knew I grow weed 
so I learn t by trail and error, knowing when to remove leaves *(defoliation**)* To deprive (a plant, tree, or forest of leaves ) not what some grower put up on a website, TBH don't like his results 

basically I have work out what to do at what stages to get the best out my plants, this does include topping, lst, thinning an plant out (removing weak shoots and bud sites), defoliation, often called it selective pruning on a lot of different sites over the last 2-3 years as a lot of growers was against defoliation, 

lol *"only way you can do it wrong would be to go too high up the stem or take too many branches*" you don't know what your talking about, you need to grow a plant/phone at lease once to see how the plant reacts in flower, see how bushy she gets, how much does she stretch after taking a few leaves, this is the trial and error stage, next you grow her again from the clone you took 

look back on the notes, work how much she's going to stretch, how many leaves she grows in flower etc 
then you can work out how many branches/leaves to take and from where, and knowing this will slow the growth down more depending on how many branches/leaves taken from which part of the plant, you want the plants to have a good amount of light covering all the leaves, bud sites, good air flow going through the canopy but at the same time you do want a good amount of leaves in flower 
its not easy to work out but get it right and you will pull yields like me


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## Huel Perkins (Mar 15, 2014)

These defoliation threads are a great reminder of how little the majority of the people on this forum know...


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## stickybuds* (Mar 15, 2014)

Huel Perkins said:


> These defoliation threads are a great reminder of how little the majority of the people on this forum know...


that's a really good point huel


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## lukedog (Mar 15, 2014)

catofcuriosity said:


> i defoliated a plant, let me know what you think?
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/813672-defoliating-extra-yield-right.html


Thanks for the link, You gave me a big grin to pass the time of day with


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## cat of curiosity (Mar 15, 2014)

lukedog said:


> Thanks for the link, You gave me a big grin to pass the time of day with


sincerely welcome!


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## Calyx541 (Mar 18, 2014)

I pluck all big unnecessary fan leaves that are shading out bud-sites


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 18, 2014)

Huel Perkins said:


> These defoliation threads are a great reminder of how little the majority of the people on this forum know...


My sig says it all.


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## ProPheT 216 (Mar 18, 2014)

From day 1 everyone is learning how to keep leaves green and healthy and attached and feeding the plant. They panic at leaf drop, spend hundred's of dollars on the wrong shit for no reason to try to correct a problem they don't even comprehend correctly. Then stubble across the word defoliation and wanna start mutilating their ladies. Keep the bottom 25-33% of the plants little shoots and bottom nodes stripped away so energy goes to actual bud production not trying to get bottom branches to grow more to find light and make an attempt at making some fluffy popcorn buds.


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## Growan (Mar 18, 2014)

ProPheT 216 said:


> From day 1 everyone is learning how to keep leaves green and healthy and attached and feeding the plant. They panic at leaf drop, spend hundred's of dollars on the wrong shit for no reason to try to correct a problem they don't even comprehend correctly. Then stubble across the word defoliation and wanna start mutilating their ladies. Keep the bottom 25-33% of the plants little shoots and bottom nodes stripped away so energy goes to actual bud production not trying to get bottom branches to grow more to find light and make an attempt at making some fluffy popcorn buds.


Amen, budder.


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## Spanky84 (Mar 21, 2014)

Ok, there is one question I can't seem to find an answer to. 

Lets say we have a branch that has 3 large leaves and a young little bud between them. Those leaves are keeping the light from penetrating to the bud. I want to know what exactly will hapen?

a) those leaves will produce energy that will be transfered to the bud and it will grow large. 
b) those leaves will send their produced energy down to the roots, while the leaves on the bud will remain shaded, unable to produce enough energy for the bud to become anything but a popcorn.


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## Huel Perkins (Mar 21, 2014)

Spanky84 said:


> Ok, there is one question I can't seem to find an answer to.
> 
> Lets say we have a branch that has 3 large leaves and a young little bud between them. Those leaves are keeping the light from penetrating to the bud. I want to know what exactly will hapen?
> 
> ...


Look up what exactly photosynthesis is, and where it happens. Once you know and completely understand it, you will know the answer to your question...


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## Spanky84 (Mar 21, 2014)

Yes, I know what a photosynthesis is, but living organisms often don't react in a way that's expected at the first glance. For example, you add more light, what would you expect? More light = more light = more growth. What you get? Just the oposite, plant with less light will push more into stretching as it thinks it has to get closer to the lights. Similarely here, yes, at first glance I would expect those leaves to feed the bud and make it stronger, but what plant actually does, I wouldn't bet on that unless I have some hands on expirience.


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## Commander Strax (Apr 13, 2014)

All that said and I am going to try to MainLine my next grow and there is a LOT of defoliation used in that technique so I think that makes me a hipocrite


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## neo12345 (Apr 13, 2014)

Commander Strax said:


> All that said and I am going to try to MainLine my next grow and there is a LOT of defoliation used in that technique so I think that makes me a hipocrite


Take all of those leaves and branches you remove and bind them together, then give yourself 50 lashes!!


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## Sativied (Apr 13, 2014)

Spanky84 said:


> Yes, I know what a photosynthesis is


Your question implies otherwise, which is basically asking what happens with photosynthate. Look into the phloem pathway for example.

Here you go: http://www.uic.edu/classes/bios/bios100/lecturesf04am/lect19.htm

*Transport in plants occurs on three levels:*

the uptake and release of water and solutes by individual cells
absorption of water and minerals from he soil by root cells

short-distance transport of substances from cell to cell
loading of sucrose from photosynthetic cells into the sieve tube cells of the phloem

_*long-distance transport of sap within the xylem and PHLOEM *_
_*this is a WHOLE PLANT phenomena - transport of photosynthate from leaf to root*_

As the last sentence says: "This explanation is very simplified - scientists are just now discovering the subtle details of phloem movement in plants". Nobody completely and exactly understands photosynthesis as a previous poster suggested, it is however a well-known fact that all leaves work for the entire plant, not just the part/fruit they connect too.

Photosynthate is simply put energy harvested from the sun, stored in sugar molecules which are transported and used throughout the entire plant, everywhere where energy is needed for cellular processes (creating stems, leaves, buds, and roots).

The people who think they notice a yield increase just have too many plants or bud sites packed together. A fuck up than can be partly unfucked by removing some leaves. I have no doubt some people with some strains actually are able to push yields to a max but in general it's just a bad idea and completely unnecessary to get max yields.


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## tripwire911 (Apr 13, 2014)

Commander Strax said:


> All that said and I am going to try to MainLine my next grow and there is a LOT of defoliation used in that technique so I think that makes me a hipocrite


I will say that mainlining works very well. I was totally experimenting with a og blueberry but was extremely happy with the results. It works very well. At first I was concerned but she just fricken flew.


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## Spanky84 (Apr 13, 2014)

Sativied said:


> Your question implies otherwise, which is basically asking what happens with photosynthate. Look into the phloem pathway for example.
> 
> Here you go: http://www.uic.edu/classes/bios/bios100/lecturesf04am/lect19.htm
> 
> ...


Yes, again, I understand that leaves work for the whole plant, but the question is, do they work for every part of the plant equaly efficiently. It is well known that branches that are shaded don't grow as strong and buds that are shaded don't grow as big. I don't know why you think it's unreasonable to consider one possible explanation being that most of the energy gets used by cells near where photsythesys is happening and long range transport is not so efficient. 

I'm definately not an advocate of radical defoliating, but if you have a situation where you have lots of leaves covering your buds (for example in SCROG GROW), I think it might be reasonable to try and remove some of those leaves, leting leaves that grow out of the buds do more work.


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## Sativied (Apr 13, 2014)

Spanky84 said:


> It is well known that branches that are shaded don't grow as strong and buds that are shaded don't grow as big.


That's a common misconception not a well-known fact. Temperatures and auxins play a large role that skew the perception. I've grown a plant of which half the buds were underneath the canopy of a much large sativa ending up the same size and weight as the unshaded half. I prefer to pack quite a few plants and spread them out in many budsites and always a few buds that are entirely overlapped with leaves. They do not grow smaller or undeveloped unless they are much lower than the canopy where ideal temp.

A large fan leave is much more efficient than a few sugar leaves coated with refracting and reflecting trichomes. The larger surface means more chlorophyll means more photons hitting the Mg atom (photosynthesis...). However, it's not a matter of fans vs sugar/bud leaves, it's fans+sugar leaves vs sugar leaves alone. Surely you have noticed the leaves below other leaves aren't entirely in the dark. 

Scrogs in which defoliating helps are simply too packed, scrogged too long too much. Having for example 16 smaller bud sites per plant obviously means more branches competing with eachother, compared to the same plant with for example 8 decent size colas. More budsites is more branches/stems is more leaves, which can get too much up to a point where removing leaves is the best way to unfuck the situation. That should not be interpreted as defoliation being a best practice in general (or that those 16 result in more nett weight than those 8, you also get twice the amount of branches with popcorn cause packed plants stretch and when stretched too far popcorn is pretty much inevitable).

Some plants are extremely leafy and may benefit in any setup but in such a case it's still unfucking a fucked up situation (working with bad genetics that is).


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## EverythingsHazy (Apr 13, 2014)

If you are doing it for light purposes:
Tuck before you pluck. 

If you can bend a leafout of the way and tuck it under something so it won't go back to it's original spot, then do that instead of cutting it off. 

If you need air circulation on the bottom branches thats a diferent story.

Either way, I don't recommend taking any leaves off of an auto unless they are 70% dead or have something on them that you don't want to spread. 
Photo's in veg can be almost completely defoliated over and over as long as they have ample recovery time in between as well as all the nutes they need to make up for the lost growth. Once flowering starts, imo, only remove leaves that are 70% dead, or infested.


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## Spanky84 (Apr 13, 2014)

Sativied said:


> That's a common misconception not a well-known fact. Temperatures and auxins play a large role that skew the perception. I've grown a plant of which half the buds were underneath the canopy of a much large sativa ending up the same size and weight as the unshaded half. I prefer to pack quite a few plants and spread them out in many budsites and always a few buds that are entirely overlapped with leaves. They do not grow smaller or undeveloped unless they are much lower than the canopy where ideal temp.
> 
> A large fan leave is much more efficient than a few sugar leaves coated with refracting and reflecting trichomes. The larger surface means more chlorophyll means more photons hitting the Mg atom (photosynthesis...). However, it's not a matter of fans vs sugar/bud leaves, it's fans+sugar leaves vs sugar leaves alone. Surely you have noticed the leaves below other leaves aren't entirely in the dark.
> 
> ...


Thank you. That was helpful.


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## skunkd0c (Apr 13, 2014)

vigorously growing plants can easily outgrow a space
cutting back some of the weaker parts can allow the space to be filled to it max with stronger growth

overall if done correctly with the right strains more bud can physically fit in a given space
if some foliage is removed this makes way for more colas in the space
this would include training and removing weaker shoots too

on a single plant under ideal conditions if every part of the plant is in free space
and has good lighting i cant see how removing any leaves could help anything
you could even allow all the vine like side shoots to fatten up more if they receive direct light

if your plants are growing fast you can remove the older leaves that are tatty they will be replaced with nice new ones
in 3 days or so
i often wonder why some folk have such tatty looking plants, each to their own

peace


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## joe macclennan (Apr 14, 2014)

stickybuds* said:


> In early flower, if u have to many bud sites it's good to remove weaker shoots/buds sites, as this gives you a higher yeild and larger cola's in late flower
> but has to be done right to give the this result


do you not understand the difference between pruning and trimming and defoliation?


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## jaredbroders (Apr 14, 2014)

can someone please helpme and give me so advice please  i have a grow at the min, im new to this forum and also new to growing. im in the uk and have 4 plants. there all sprouted and look healthy except the stems are a little long. i am currently using 2 CFL lights (spiral) 2700 k warm white and im using 2 of these. i am thinking of getting another 2 so each plant as there own light. i have been told and read online that you can do a full grow with just these CFL lights. is that right? if i get another 2 would they be ok on that light untill right to the end? would appreciate everyone input on it.  thanks guys

oh and the i have 3 speed haze fem seeds that are now small stem plants and 1 pineapple gum seed which is the longest and is the fastest. germinated first the pineapple one 

i am also using mylar silver and white reflective sheets all around my grow room so there getting light from that too. plus i also have a small fan blowing constantly. does it sound like im doing anything wrong so far? done loads of reading/research online and thats why im growing the way i am  and so far its working


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## joe macclennan (Apr 14, 2014)

you are gonna need way more cfls if you want to yield anything worthwhile man. gimme a minute and i'll see if I can't dig you up a cfl thread you can check out.


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## joe macclennan (Apr 14, 2014)

here is a good place to start jared https://www.rollitup.org/t/advantage-v-disadvantage-cfls.57813/


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## jaredbroders (Apr 14, 2014)

thanks mate  will 1 cfl light be good enough per plant? i was reading a blog ages ago for the cheapest way to grow and it said you can use just 2 100w house bulbs so i went and baught 2 cfl bulbs which are equivilant to 175w per bulb would 2 more of these be ok? dont want to buy mega expensive lights if i dont need to


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## joe macclennan (Apr 14, 2014)

all I can say is check out the cfl section. I don't use cfls


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## neo12345 (Apr 14, 2014)

jaredbroders said:


> can someone please helpme and give me so advice please  i have a grow at the min, im new to this forum and also new to growing. im in the uk and have 4 plants. there all sprouted and look healthy except the stems are a little long. i am currently using 2 CFL lights (spiral) 2700 k warm white and im using 2 of these. i am thinking of getting another 2 so each plant as there own light. i have been told and read online that you can do a full grow with just these CFL lights. is that right? if i get another 2 would they be ok on that light untill right to the end? would appreciate everyone input on it.  thanks guys
> 
> oh and the i have 3 speed haze fem seeds that are now small stem plants and 1 pineapple gum seed which is the longest and is the fastest. germinated first the pineapple one
> 
> i am also using mylar silver and white reflective sheets all around my grow room so there getting light from that too. plus i also have a small fan blowing constantly. does it sound like im doing anything wrong so far? done loads of reading/research online and thats why im growing the way i am  and so far its working


My advice would be to ditch the cfl's and buy an hps, they are only £60 and they give you far better results than those candles you're using now. You only need to grow a 1/3 of an ounce extra to pay for itself, which you will do and then some using proper lights!!

It is possible to grow a plant using cfl's, but you will kick yourself that you didn't buy an hps sooner than you did.


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## neo12345 (Apr 14, 2014)

Sativied said:


> Your question implies otherwise, which is basically asking what happens with photosynthate. Look into the phloem pathway for example.
> 
> Here you go: http://www.uic.edu/classes/bios/bios100/lecturesf04am/lect19.htm


Surely this is describing translocation and not photosynthesis? 

I think the common misconception here is that leaves are essential to translocation, when this is clearly not the case.


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## joe macclennan (Apr 14, 2014)

according to neo, the guy who can't even read an academic study? 

you'll have to excuse me If I don't take your teachings to heart professor


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## neo12345 (Apr 14, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> according to neo, the guy who can't even read an academic study?
> 
> you'll have to excuse me If I don't take your teachings to heart professor


Joe for the third time, I READ and AGREED with the study you posted about leaves not working to their full potential if they are not receiving enough light, what else would you like me to do mate?

I've never claimed to be a professor, in fact I'm learning a lot about why plants react the way they do when you defoliate them. 

Science and plenty of places around the web say that if you over water plants they will become sick and start wilting, yet I'm growing my plants as we speak in a shed load of water and they seem to be doing quite well on it. So I guess not everything is clear cut as science says?

I would have thought that at some point at least just one defolihater would have done an experiment to prove defoliation does not work, and it would be posted on the internet somewhere for everyone to see? Do you not think that strange, I do? It would have killed the argument and we wouldn't be having this conversation now.


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## kinddiesel (Apr 14, 2014)

I usually grow the plant 5 feet tall in veg. and cut the main stem right above the soil. throw the main plant into the trash so al you have is a stem. and put it flowering . cant get any better then that,


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## neo12345 (Apr 14, 2014)

kinddiesel said:


> I usually grow the plant 5 feet tall in veg. and cut the main stem right above the soil. throw the main plant into the trash so al you have is a stem. and put it flowering . cant get any better then that,


I think you'll find that's topping and not defoliation.


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## joe macclennan (Apr 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> Joe for the third time, I READ and AGREED with the study you posted about leaves not working to their full potential if they are not receiving enough light, what else would you like me to do mate?
> 
> I've never claimed to be a professor, in fact I'm learning a lot about why plants react the way they do when you defoliate them.
> 
> ...


derpdeederdeedor

i'm talking about the half dozen other links I posted...for YOU


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## neo12345 (Apr 14, 2014)

You didn't come back to me with a smoke report on your cucumbers or whatever it was you posted, you found some studies on defoliation which didn't have a positive effect on yield and I posted that one about the positive effect on yield when done with grapes.

Really in the big scheme of this argument they are fairly irrelevant because we are talking about defoliating cannabis plants whilst manipulating their environment, which is totally different to the reports that we posted. The way you keep going on about them you would think they are definitive proof!!

You clearly aren't interested in defoliation and that's fine, nobody is going to force you to try it. If you're happy growing 1970's style au naturel then that's fine too, but if you are going to tell us that defoliation doesn't work on cannabis plants then prove it?


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## youknowthekid! (Apr 14, 2014)

People come here for a quick *antidote* to their minor issue, what they receive is pages on pages of *anecdotes* , but I suppose this is the smudge of today's marginal progress.

I have partaken in numerous levels of defoliation. More so, I have witnessed folks on here not defoliate at all, and I've seen folks defoliate 100% and lollipop to shit. I'll tell you right now neither are optimal for bud production. Also, you can throw away that horse shit about NATURE, and NATURAL; sorry little sprout, that's not the sun you're popping up under- where your excessive level of fans would all be beneficial, it's a lamp, rated in lumens, aka less par than that beaut you evolved under 

*When and where to defoliate-* Strain/conditions varitaions aside. What I have gathered is that if you can effectively clear all of the leaves and stems from the lower zone that will produce smaller than .3g nugs, do it, and do it early in veg! This becomes easier the more familiar you get with a strain and your production possibilities. Generally the first 1-2 side stems can be chopped from main chutes without yield detriment (these are the little guys that turn into stretchy spaghetti); note this is where YOUR personal production possibilities come into the ruling. This also becomes easier as you become better at training your plant into the # of tops you're looking for, as well as how much periphery you need. If you're running scrog like me you want to focus the plants energy up to the photo zone, around the screen, where the fans and stems are most productive. The early veg defoliation will also create a denser photo-zone canopy caused by the extra branching stimulus.

*When not to defoliate- *Leave all of the healthy fans on the perimeter of girls alone. After the veg defoliation, only remove those lower fans that are either entirely shaded out or starting to fade and get dry/crispy. All of the healthy, mid level fans should remain untouched outside of special circumstances. The only time I remove a healthy fan from the upper 20% of the canopy is if it's shading the entire middle of the plant (area where you can train smaller periphery into).

Looks at how this guy does it. Chops everything that isn't resting on the screen which is pretty much entirely photo-efficient production being that it's below a powerful 1000.





Similarly, reddiamond, whose pics I stole, did a ton of pruning under his dense canopy, but definitely only the appropriate level of defoliation. It's all about maintaining the densest possible photo-zone. This is why internodal spacing is hugely important (very strain dependent), but once again, can be compensated for by the upper branching set in motion by early-veg pruning stimulus.
View attachment 3128210 View attachment 3128211
https://www.rollitup.org/t/ak48-coco-grow-1st-try-at-scrog.778302/page-7

Note that my opinions are best catered to dense SOG or Scrog. Anything I say is NULL for outdoors. Also, my defoliation really hinges on the side of basic pruning, but in my opinion the right level is about not being too attached or unattached when you start cutting these . Pun intended.


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## joe macclennan (Apr 15, 2014)

@ neo, it's clear you have no interest in learning. that's cool. . 

giving advice on a subject you are unwilling to do any reading on is not so cool tho. 

but, whatever bro.


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## Sativied (Apr 15, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> Surely this is describing translocation and not photosynthesis?
> 
> I think the common misconception here is that leaves are essential to translocation,
> 
> when this is clearly not the case.


Not mutually exclusive.
No.
And of course it is (a good microscope actually allows you to see that 'clearly' in the leaves).

Did you actually come to those conclusions 'after' you read the doc (uhm for example the The Translocation of Phloem section)? 

Without leaves there is no photosynthate (the product of photosynthesis, energy stored in the form of sugar) for the phloem to translocate. Leaves aren't just essential to translocation (through both xylem and phloem, bi-directial with leaves often either being the destination or origin), they are essential to ALL the processes in a plant which are all chemical processes requiring energy. Most people have heard the comparison of leaves to solar panels but it seems many don't realize how true that comparison is (and there's no backup line to a grid...).


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## neo12345 (Apr 15, 2014)

Sativied said:


> Not mutually exclusive.
> No.
> And of course it is (a good microscope actually allows you to see that 'clearly' in the leaves).
> 
> ...


You may have been taking my statement too literally there, it was meant in the context of defoliation. Obviously cannabis plants need leaves to grow just not all of the time, is probably a more accurate statement.

I came to my conclusions after defoliating some cannabis plants, and doing some experimenting of my own. I found that translocation did not appear to stop when I defoliated, in fact there seemed to be an increased growth rate after defoliation.

Most people with solar panels also have a bank of batteries, so they can use energy whilst also storing some for use at night when the solar panels don't work. Which is pretty much how a plant works isn't it, it over produces the energy needed and stores the over production?

So is it possible that the plant after being tricked into thinking it's lost leaves for whatever reason is tapping into this energy reserve, since it has no leaves to produce energy from?


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## joe macclennan (Apr 15, 2014)

Sativied said:


> Not mutually exclusive.
> No.
> And of course it is (a good microscope actually allows you to see that 'clearly' in the leaves).
> 
> ...


very good explanation man, I wish I could still give rep. 

@ neo, you really should take some basic biology courses and quit arguing with those who know more about this than you


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## neo12345 (Apr 15, 2014)

We should have a flying competition Joe I don't mind hiring a couple of light aircraft for the day, I'll take lessons and get some real experience of flying while you just read some scientific studies about flying. It should make for an interesting day out?

You're clearly way out of your depth as you can't even answer some simple questions that I posted, so to save you further embarrassment why don't you just keep quiet?


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## Growan (Apr 15, 2014)

I missed this thread. It's the thread that keeps on giving...


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## joe macclennan (Apr 15, 2014)

have you ever flown an aircraft before neo? I have. LOL

who is embarrassed?

your analogies crack me up tho...keep trying


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## neo12345 (Apr 16, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> have you ever flown an aircraft before neo? I have. LOL
> 
> who is embarrassed?
> 
> your analogies crack me up tho...keep trying


I thought you were intelligent enough to understand what I was saying, obviously not so let me spell it out in simple terms for you.

You have no experience of defoliation, yet you think you know all about it because you're repeating what someone else has said. You then think that qualifies you somehow to come onto these threads and tell people not to do what you have never tried!

You then try and force your opinions onto other people and won't allow them to even have a conversation about it, like some little fascist full of his own self importance. 

You've been exposed several times now showing that you don't really know what you're talking about. Embarrassed? I feel a little embarrassed for you.

You brown nose anyone else who puts up false flag information in the hope that you are right.

I like these conversations because like they say all publicity is good publicity, people are reading these threads and trying defoliation for themselves and finding out that you're talking a load of bollocks and their plants aren't dying because 'translocation stops when you remove the leaves'. 

That's why I don't mind having these stupid conversations with you because it keeps these threads alive.

So you continue with your personal attacks on me if you think it adds something to your argument, I'll keep on asking difficult questions like how are the trees outside growing leaves now when they were bare a few weeks ago?


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## RL420 (Apr 16, 2014)

this is now a cat thread


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## Commander Strax (Apr 16, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> Hey Neo I just read your signature, perhaps you should crouch down, get down on your knees, put your head on my knees and lean forward. Be careful of your teeth, I have a 4 gage Prince Albert and a full Jacobs Ladder. kiss-ass


stop putting holes in your penis....It is your PENIS leave it be , you may need it in the future


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## mr sunshine (Apr 16, 2014)

Joe is a king around here he is the top of the food chain..he can cure cancer with his seamen.. he will crush you!!!


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## joe macclennan (Apr 16, 2014)

you are your own worst enemy neo. anyone who has ever read your fumbling posts realizes you are a fool. nobody casts as much negative light on the topic of defoliation as you. There are a few people who make very good points on the subject. You....are not one of them.

go ahead and type another page and a half post trying to make yourself look better, you funny little man you

edit: i'm not attacking you at all.....talk about the pot and the kettle here. Your post is full of attacks. Kinda the only way you know how to get your point across


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## neo12345 (Apr 16, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> edit: i'm not attacking you at all....


That's funny joe because your last 3 or 4 posts say different, you don't like it because you just got some back. Then again bullies don't normally like it when people stand up to them.

As for the op's original question of anyone being a fan of defoliation to increase yield, I think we can put joe down as a firm no. It took us 8 pages to get there but now we finally have a definitive answer.


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## Spanky84 (Apr 16, 2014)

Come on guys, smoke a joint or something. This negativity solves mothing...


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## bigworm6969 (Apr 16, 2014)

im a fan of cutting fan leaves, i dont cut that many but i do it like 3 times through out the plants life cycle if i cant tuck it i cut it and i dont see any harm as long as u dont go crazy with it


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## dannyboy602 (Apr 17, 2014)

profterpen said:


> I'm putting together an experiment involving DEFOLIATION! I'd really like all the input I can get. Please start by reading the opening post. This will be a controlled grow with 4 subject plants.
> 
> Check it out: https://www.rollitup.org/showthread.php?t=809749


Professor Bunny is gone now and he took his defoliating experiment with him. I was sort of looking forward to seeing the results. Anyone know why he left or was banned?


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## jointed (Apr 17, 2014)

Nope....


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## Growan (Apr 17, 2014)

Banned for cruelty to plants?
No, seriously it's a shame. The conclusion of a controlled experiment is exactly what we need to see. 
Anybody else got 4 spare clones, a m² and a 600w hps?!?


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## joe macclennan (Apr 17, 2014)

dannyboy602 said:


> Professor Bunny is gone now and he took his defoliating experiment with him. I was sort of looking forward to seeing the results. Anyone know why he left or was banned?


i don't think he was banned was he? Last I saw him post he said he was just really busy. hell man, you're the mod! you should be telling us lol. 

[email protected] neo calling me a bully. You just need to learn how to read broseph. When i hear a guy giving such erroneous advice with absolutely NO credible evidence backing up his claims...I'll call him on it....every time. Put up or shut up. simple as that.


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## dannyboy602 (Apr 17, 2014)

I'll ask around. When there is a line through someone's name it means they're gone. Now that Defoliating issue will just keep on going instead of being debunked and put to rest.


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## charface (Apr 17, 2014)

He is stilll around.
Now he is bunny father


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## JointOperation (Apr 17, 2014)

yes taking fans off plants at the right times does increase yields.. on some genetics.. some strains do not like it . others love love love it.. and its more about how u do it.. if ur plants not healthy at all. and your pulling off the fans.. your going to see bad yields.. its really simple.. learn how to keep your plants super healthy.. before going and trying 1 million different techniques.. once ur dialed in with your nutes.. and environment.. then .. try to do lots of diff stuff to see wat works best for your strains.. but then again.. 60% is growing the bud.. 40% is drying and curing and trimming.. atleast for QUALITY .. so even if ur growing great buds.. if ur not flushing.. and drying slow..and trimming nicely.. and curing properly.. its not going to make a difference how good they look if they smell bad. or smoke like shit.


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## joe macclennan (Apr 17, 2014)

dannyboy602 said:


> I'll ask around. When there is a line through someone's name it means they're gone. Now that Defoliating issue will just keep on going instead of being debunked and put to rest.


maybe he turned into a spammer? I always thought the potential there


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## neo12345 (Apr 17, 2014)

First he's telling me that he is going to stop me from giving my opinion on this forum, now he attacks a person that might not be here to defend himself. 

Do I call you Uncle or Comrade, joe?


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## joe macclennan (Apr 18, 2014)

you really are a fool neo.


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## tooteefrootee (Apr 18, 2014)

hey Charface and Joe  Hope you all are doing well. If we are still chatting about de-foliation, I've noticed that some strains (such as skywalker og) benefit from removing the big huge a** fan leaves about weeks 4 and beyond. And I don't go crazy but ill start pulling some to allow light to penetrate further down the canopy. This is especially true and helpful when I decide to mass produce skywalker og in my aeroflo. The large fan leaves get to be as big as a friggin head lol. But I don't start pulling them until after week 4, I want to be sure my transition and stretch period has completed or near completed. Then Ill start pulling a few at a time just so I don't terribly shock the plants. But for any of my other strains its kind of useless, you would have to pull too much foliage and it just has too much of a negative effect on the plants ability to process light into energy that is needed to focus on bud production.


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## tooteefrootee (Apr 18, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> First he's telling me that he is going to stop me from giving my opinion on this forum, now he attacks a person that might not be here to defend himself.
> 
> Do I call you Uncle or Comrade, joe?


neo, your point has been made and has some valid claim BUT its just doesn't mean that it works for every strain, everyone's technique, everyone's room application etc... But I will say burn one bro and be cool...It doesn't have to get too personal about the subject. I like Joe, we've seen differences in techniques and practices but overall, Joe is a really cool fellow. I can see a lot of merit in your posts, especially in regards to personal experience. If you have personally learned by trial and error, or comparison....I support that learning. Its great to learn from mistakes. teaches one better on why we make mistakes and how we can not do it again and grow on it. I learned my trade as an apprentice for 3 years, so I completely understand learning hands on by personal experience and experiment. Hope you don't take this the wrong way but I'm just trying to do 2 things. Agree with some of your practices in education experience and say hey, Joe is pretty cool and is good in my book bro. Hope all is growing well always


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## RL420 (Apr 18, 2014)

Would you defoilate your KITTIES?!?!!? Hes getting some good air flow now for sure.


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## Sativied (Apr 18, 2014)

^^lol









dannyboy602 said:


> I'll ask around. When there is a line through someone's name it means they're gone. Now that Defoliating issue will just keep on going instead of being debunked and put to rest.


If in a side-by-side it turns out it didn't increase the yield then defoilators will claim it wasn't done right, at the wrong time or blame the strain. Even if the test was repeated with indicas, sativas and several hybrids a defoliator could claim it works only on hybrids that have a bud structure like sativas and leaves like indicas, or the other way around. I can think of several situations in which defoliation improves a situation that should have been avoided by proper plant spacing and/or climate control if max yield is the goal. Situations that don't occur in a grow from someone who could do a reliable side-by-side. I don't think this will ever be put to rest, at least not amongst hobbyists and amateurs.


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## dannyboy602 (Apr 18, 2014)

Sativied said:


> ^^lol
> 
> 
> If in a side-by-side it turns out it didn't increase the yield then defoilators will claim it wasn't done right, at the wrong time or blame the strain. Even if the test was repeated with indicas, sativas and several hybrids a defoliator could claim it works only on hybrids that have a bud structure like sativas and leaves like indicas, or the other way around. I can think of several situations in which defoliation improves a situation that should have been avoided by proper plant spacing and/or climate control if max yield is the goal. Situations that don't occur in a grow from someone who could do a reliable side-by-side. I don't think this will ever be put to rest, at least not amongst hobbyists and amateurs.


ur probably right about that. it will always be a point of contention. up there with flushing and the whole amber myth.


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## Sativied (Apr 18, 2014)

dannyboy602 said:


> and the whole amber myth.


Yeah, good example. A professor who spent decades on researching trichs ends up measuring the contents of trich heads and factually determines amber is degraded THC into CBN no less and still plenty of people who wait for 20-30% amber or even more.


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## RL420 (Apr 18, 2014)

Sativied said:


> Yeah, good example. A professor who spent decades on researching trichs ends up measuring the contents of trich heads and factually determines amber is degraded THC into CBN no less and still plenty of people who wait for 20-30% amber or even more.


In your opinion when is the ideal harvest window? Sometimes when i start seeing amber on some strains the buds arent even looking "done" yet, you know what i mean


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## chuck estevez (Apr 18, 2014)

RL420 said:


> In your opinion when is the ideal harvest window? Sometimes when i start seeing amber on some strains the buds arent even looking "done" yet, you know what i mean


I pull when it looks done, I don't even look at the trichs. that's all a waste of my time. A grower who has grown long enough knows when the plant is finished.


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## chuck estevez (Apr 18, 2014)

Almost forgot,


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## Growan (Apr 18, 2014)

Meh, there's something pervy about defoliated pussy, this however ....


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## Sativied (Apr 18, 2014)

RL420 said:


> In your opinion when is the ideal harvest window? Sometimes when i start seeing amber on some strains the buds arent even looking "done" yet, you know what i mean


Yeah I know what you mean, that's why it's important to not just look at trichs. As long as the buds are still going there's no need to look at trichs (well, unless you got one that foxtails too long and you don't want the center bud to degrade). Once the calyxes are fully swollen and no new fresh white pistils are being created it's pretty much done. If at that point most trichs are cloudy (which will pretty much always be the case) I pull it. The result of the research of that professor (outlines in an article by Mel Frank in Hightimes, called A Time to Reap if I remember correctly. Kite_high (rip) posted a scan of the article here somewhere at RIU) wasn't just that amber is too far, when trichs start turning cloudy they are at peak THC ratios, when fully cloudy they are already degrading. The only legal medicinal grower in the netherlands pulls ssh after only 7 weeks. 

I imagine some early breeders and gurus told others to wait for x% amber as a rough method and that percentage increased (exaggerated) over the past decades as if it's desirable to have amber. If you had a certain % of amber (on the outer calyxes) you could be fairly sure no new trichs are being added and the majority is cloudy.

Unlike Chuck I do look at trichs, but like Chuck I don't really use them to actually determine the harvest day. I look more at the bud structure and calyx development:


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## Growan (Apr 18, 2014)

T


Sativied said:


> Yeah I know what you mean, that's why it's important to not just look at trichs. As long as the buds are still going there's no need to look at trichs (well, unless you got one that foxtails too long and you don't want the center bud to degrade). Once the calyxes are fully swollen and no new fresh white pistils are being created it's pretty much done. If at that point most trichs are cloudy (which will pretty much always be the case) I pull it. The result of the research of that professor (outlines in an article by Mel Frank in Hightimes, called A Time to Reap if I remember correctly. Kite_high (rip) posted a scan of the article here somewhere at RIU) wasn't just that amber is too far, when trichs start turning cloudy they are at peak THC ratios, when fully cloudy they are already degrading. The only legal medicinal grower in the netherlands pulls ssh after only 7 weeks.
> 
> I imagine some early breeders and gurus told others to wait for x% amber as a rough method and that percentage increased (exaggerated) over the past decades as if it's desirable to have amber. If you had a certain % of amber (on the outer calyxes) you could be fairly sure no new trichs are being added and the majority is cloudy.
> 
> Unlike Chuck I do look at trichs, but like Chuck I don't really use them to actually determine the harvest day. I look more at the bud structure and calyx development:


 Continue on the slightly off topic theme, would you recommend harvesting in stages, as the tops of my scrog seem to be a week or so ahead of those a couple of inches down. 
Should I have the ripe off first and then take the rest later?


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## Sativied (Apr 18, 2014)

I usually already harvest in stages because so far I always have at least different phenos or strains, meaning some are ready sooner than others. I have 6 cannalope haze clones from two different phenos now and will harvest the top of the plant(s) that are ready and let the lower buds in there together with the plants of which the upper part isn't done yet. If hypothetically speaking all plants where ready at the same time, or in case of 1 plant, it would for me depend on the situation. I would in any case not let the upper buds degrade further for the sake of wanting amber on the lower buds. The THC level has been building up during the entire flowering time, a day or two more or less really doesn't matter that much. If it seems worth it in terms of more weight to keep the grow space occupied with lower buds for another week than yeah I would.


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## Growan (Apr 18, 2014)

Thanks, Sativied. This is my first indoor and first scrog to boot. A little too much canopy going and 2 strains to boot, so an inconsistant bud developement accros the board. My best guess was to take what's ready as and when as I used to do outdoors. Glad to have heard it from somebody who knows their stuff.
This is one of the situations discussed earlier where defoliation (this is a defoliation thread, right?) would have 'un-fucked a fuck up' so to speak. Neo advised more leaf removal a few pages back, but with the caveat that at this stage without having followed the method from earlier on in veg it could be a no gain situation. Either way, this is where I am now, and the next run will improve upon this.
Clones patiently waiting...


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## Growan (Apr 18, 2014)

Better that than seeing what lies beneath. How is your mum these days?


...you know I is only playin', bro. X x x


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## BenFranklin (Apr 18, 2014)

OK! That's just NASTY!


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## chuck estevez (Apr 18, 2014)

Growan said:


> Better that than seeing what lies beneath. How is your mum these days?
> 
> 
> ...you know I is only playin', bro. X x x


I was gonna ask how he got a naked pic of his mom, LMFAO


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## BenFranklin (Apr 18, 2014)

That's his mom??? 

Well, she does have nice knees... Oh wait, she's not kneeling!


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## tooteefrootee (Apr 19, 2014)

Sativied said:


> Yeah I know what you mean, that's why it's important to not just look at trichs. As long as the buds are still going there's no need to look at trichs (well, unless you got one that foxtails too long and you don't want the center bud to degrade). Once the calyxes are fully swollen and no new fresh white pistils are being created it's pretty much done. If at that point most trichs are cloudy (which will pretty much always be the case) I pull it. The result of the research of that professor (outlines in an article by Mel Frank in Hightimes, called A Time to Reap if I remember correctly. Kite_high (rip) posted a scan of the article here somewhere at RIU) wasn't just that amber is too far, when trichs start turning cloudy they are at peak THC ratios, when fully cloudy they are already degrading. The only legal medicinal grower in the netherlands pulls ssh after only 7 weeks.
> 
> I imagine some early breeders and gurus told others to wait for x% amber as a rough method and that percentage increased (exaggerated) over the past decades as if it's desirable to have amber. If you had a certain % of amber (on the outer calyxes) you could be fairly sure no new trichs are being added and the majority is cloudy.
> 
> Unlike Chuck I do look at trichs, but like Chuck I don't really use them to actually determine the harvest day. I look more at the bud structure and calyx development:


I like this book in my reference library, Jorge Cerventas Growers Bible. read it, learn it, love it


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## neo12345 (Apr 19, 2014)

Growan said:


> Better that than seeing what lies beneath. How is your mum these days?
> 
> 
> ...you know I is only playin', bro. X x x


I thought people would like my picture of growing au natural with one big undefoliated main cola?


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## RL420 (Apr 19, 2014)

You guys are out of control hahaha


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 21, 2014)

Kids, when will they ever learn.


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## ProHuman (Apr 24, 2014)




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## ProHuman (Apr 24, 2014)

*^^ It's so purdy ^^*


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## docter (Apr 25, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> lmfao...legless linda wins the race


that shit is funnny!


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Apr 25, 2014)

I just can't see walking that thing around the block.
Maybe in Key West, but Alaskan dogs would die laughing I think.


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## JointOperation (Apr 26, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> I pull when it looks done, I don't even look at the trichs. that's all a waste of my time. A grower who has grown long enough knows when the plant is finished.


thats bullshit.. ive had hybrids and sativas look done.. but pulled early because of looks.. get a microscope and check your trichs.. ull have better results... and wen there really ripened u get a much stronger smell n taste


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## chuck estevez (Apr 26, 2014)

JointOperation said:


> thats bullshit.. ive had hybrids and sativas look done.. but pulled early because of looks.. get a microscope and check your trichs.. ull have better results... and wen there really ripened u get a much stronger smell n taste


Nope, NOT bullshit, Been growing long enough, I don't even count days. What's bullshit is people that pull early for the $$$. My buds are always finished and there is always a line for them. So, Sorry, But No microscope needed here.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Apr 26, 2014)

JointOperation said:


> thats bullshit.. ive had hybrids and sativas look done.. but pulled early because of looks.. get a microscope and check your trichs.. ull have better results... and wen there really ripened u get a much stronger smell n taste


Some of the best gardeners don't need to use scopes - it becomes second nature.
http://rollitup.org/t/harvest-time-a-tutorial.28072/


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## stickybuds* (Apr 26, 2014)

is this still going on lol
what a load of crap, when are you lot going to work out defoliation works and you can top a plant and have more than 4 large colas on a plants
Uncle Ben you info is helpful to new growers but its old and dated and your very wrong about number of colas per plant, no question about that

I have just chopped 6 plants with 6-10 very large colas on each plant, something you say does not work

here a picture of a plant and one of the buds


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## JointOperation (Apr 27, 2014)

i suggest getting a scope.. because honestly. i grew without one for a while. thought i had all my strains chop dates down perfectly.. had the line of customers just waiting for my harvests every single time.. too.. im not saying your buds arent great. im just stating the truth. 1 strain can go from clear to cloudy to amber in a matter of 2 weeks.. or it can take 4 or 5 weeks.. not every strain is the same.. i can pull my plants down now without using a scope.. but if i use a scope i find even the smallest furthest away fromt he light buds.. are great and nice and potent.

then when i got the scope i found i was pulling before peak ripeness.. and it made a huge difference in smell and potency when taken to full ripe.. honestly ive gotten a few older growers to grab scopes.. and no1 has said anything bad about it . they all are so much happier that they can pull when they know its ready.. then guessing. its a 20$ buy.. to be able to see the full potential of every single strain you grow.. 

ive never heard someone say.. man i wish i never bought a scope.. ever since i got the scope my bud comes out horrible.. ive only heard people say how its helped them maintain a better product with less guessing.. .. but hey if u feel you dont need one.. then dont get one.. im just saying i really believe if your going to take alot of time to grow a great plant.. why guess on when its done when u can kno for a fact when its done?


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## cat of curiosity (Apr 27, 2014)

i don't regret having used a scope, but i haven't used one in many years. good tool to learn how to tell ripeness. after a few years, you recognize the 'done' look.


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## ProHuman (Apr 27, 2014)

You can find a scope for $9 on ebay, Well worth it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/60X-100X-LED-Microscope-Magnifier-Glass-Magnifying-Lens-Jewelers-Loupe-Lighted-/330894364320?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0ad74ea0


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## DrOfWelshMagic (Apr 29, 2014)

extreme defoliation hee hee...... below at least


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## JointOperation (Apr 30, 2014)

lol i wasnt saying its impossible to learn a strain.. but every new strain.. its much easier with a scope.. then after a few runs. u dont need it anymore. but still finding the sweet spot without guessing is so much easier


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 4, 2014)

not to hijack the thread but I wanted to invite interested parties to an actual scientific experiment on the subject of defoliation.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/effect-of-defoliation-on-yield-skywalker-og-indoor-scrog.827202/


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## smkweed420303 (May 12, 2014)

done side by side comparisons for 3 years in a 100 light warehouse with over 100 strains. taking fans leaves off that are covering bud sites helps your yields 99% of the time, done this in a scrog, lst, and staking, make sure your don't prune to much and try n spread plants as best as can so don't have to take to many fan leaves off


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## smkweed420303 (May 12, 2014)

and you don't need a scope if your not an idiot you'll know when a plants done


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## GreatwhiteNorth (May 12, 2014)

smkweed420303 said:


> done side by side comparisons for 3 years in a 100 light warehouse with over 100 strains. taking fans leaves off that are covering bud sites helps your yields 99% of the time, done this in a scrog, lst, and staking, make sure your don't prune to much and try n spread plants as best as can so don't have to take to many fan leaves off


I do the same.
If a budsite never see's direct light it will be fluffy popcorn at best. If I have to take a couple of fans off of a larger neighbor so be it.


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## Uncle Ben (May 13, 2014)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> I do the same.
> If a budsite never see's direct light it will be fluffy popcorn at best.


Really. And what's the science behind that opinion?

I guess that apple sitting in the shade of the tree canopy can't read.


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## smkweed420303 (May 13, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Really. And what's the science behind that opinion?
> 
> I guess that apple sitting in the shade of the tree canopy can't read.


well i don't know the science, I've just proven it doing side by side comparisons


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## GreatwhiteNorth (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Really. And what's the science behind that opinion?
> 
> I guess that apple sitting in the shade of the tree canopy can't read.


Take a peak under the canopy of a Scrog.


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## neo12345 (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Really. And what's the science behind that opinion?





Uncle Ben said:


> The response is called "phototropism".


I think you've answered your own question there in the other thread, phototropism is the reason we uncover the budsites because they grow bigger with direct sunlight.


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## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> I think you've answered your own question there in the other thread, phototropism is the reason we uncover the budsites because they grow bigger with direct sunlight.


No it's not. The two are not remotely related regarding function and outcome.


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## waterdawg (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> not to hijack the thread but I wanted to invite interested parties to an actual scientific experiment on the subject of defoliation.
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/effect-of-defoliation-on-yield-skywalker-og-indoor-scrog.827202/


So hows that working out


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> So hows that working out


a bunch of blowhards with no actual research making personal attacks.
par for the course

detractors with no research to back up their position against defol and poohpoohing the efforts of someone trying to at least do basic research to see what happens


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> Take a peak under the canopy of a Scrog.


he doesn't know anything about scrogs or hydro
he's an outdoor soil grower


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## chuck estevez (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> a bunch of blowhards with no actual research making personal attacks.
> par for the course
> 
> detractors with no research to back up their position against defol and poohpoohing the efforts of someone trying to at least do basic research to see what happens


Can you make my order to go ,please. THX!!


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Really. And what's the science behind that opinion?
> 
> I guess that apple sitting in the shade of the tree canopy can't read.


#1 apples are not cannabis
#2 your analogy is not research
#3 you don't have any research to support your opinion that defol is deleterious
#4 your opinion is based on a bunch of old hippy wives tales 
#5 you're an outdoor grower that has no idea about indoor hydro
#6 advanced indoor growers can learn nothing from you 

go help the newbies that you resent so much


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> Can you make my order to go ,please. THX!!


you want fries with this: 
you might want to order a salad. you look doughy ok doughy


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## chuck estevez (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> you want fries with this:
> you might want to order a salad. you look doughyView attachment 3153204 ok doughy


looks fluffy, Fluffy.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> I think you've answered your own question there in the other thread, phototropism is the reason we uncover the budsites because they grow bigger with direct sunlight.


I talked to another veteran grower today and asked his opinion on defol
he said 

#1 cannabis naturally doesn't produce many leaves but the synthetic nutrients we give them support growth and that also means extra leaf growth
#2 everything in indoor growing creates stress so defol is but one of many stresses
#3 when you remove fan leaves, the younger leaves above it draw nutrients which effectively creates demand from nutrients and draws them up through the plant
#4 plants evolved to shed leaves naturally through animal vectors and wind. they will be fine to lose a few


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> looks fluffy, Fluffy.


they're just fat


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## chuck estevez (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> they're just fat


yeah, keep telling yourself that.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> yeah, keep telling yourself that.


facts are facts. I had at least half a pak > 4g each on my first run with that strain.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

smkweed420303 said:


> well i don't know the science, I've just proven it doing side by side comparisons


one of these yahoos mocked you by using this quote in their sig, FYI


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 17, 2014)

from squidbilly can of worms

I found this on another site and this guy does a great job of explaining what leaves actually do. 

"My experence Is to top the main cola, wait for that to heal. The plant grows alot of leaves that start in the light soon to be shadowed by higher leaves and at each set of leaves are the nodes that produce tops, that produce the Flowers. I choose to remove with clean sharp scizors all the Leaves on a branch except the top 3 sets. Those sets being one set thats opening still, The set thats still Freshly sprouted and points toward the light still as it hasnt layed all the way flat to the light as the leaves are still sensitive to the light and the angle to the light lowers the intensity on the fresh leaves, and the set below thoses should be fully Developed, and have no sets directly above it. The older a plant gets the more leaves it produces. As these leaves become more and more shadowed they become less and less productive. The plant keeps these shadowed, largely inactive and even dormant leaves for what are known as "Water Leaves". Water Leaves are Leaves that serve as "Water Tanks" for when the plant Experences prolonged dehydration. In such an event the plant pulls the water and nutrients from these large dark dormant leaves. Once the "Water Leaves" are sapped of all there water the leaf simply dies and falls off having served its purpose. These Leaves are in a natural situation are vital to ensure the life of the plant throught the growing season. But In the case of the responsible indoor grower that dosnt forget to keep his or her plants watered they will go completly unused. So the reason that it is good to take these leaves off is the plant will actually expend energy from productive parts of the plant to maintain this "safety net" of Water Leaves. Removal of these will do two things to the plant. the first thing the plant dose is want to replace those "Water Leaves" and its going to do that by devoloping the nodes around ware its "Water Leaves" were near the middle and bottom of the plant. The Second thing that happens by removing these water leaves is light can penitrate the lowest nodes of the plant, which are now being enchouraged by the plant and the presence of direct light contacting the nodes. The third benifit of this strategy is that removal of all the main lower leaves opens up about 80% of the tops on the plant into direct light. The more tops that are exposed to direct light the faster the plant can grow and the more nodes that develope the larger and more abundant the bud production will be come harvest time."

Many fan leaves are competitors for energy, not big 'solar panels' that are the main source of energy for our plants. The plant actually expells energy to keep those leaves alive-not the other way around! So instead of giving your buds energy they actually compete for it. The plant keeps these 'water leaves' alive in case of a possible drought.

We all know what photosynthesis is, well any of us who passed the second grade. Using this term as an example of why you shouldn't remove any leaves demonstrates a common misunderstanding of botany/biology. 

Removing leaves selectively throughout a grow, often called 'foraging', is an amazing tool for experienced growers. It boosts your plants immune systems, encourages bigger bushier plants, and redirects energy where YOU the grower wants it. 

With a combination of training techniques and leaf removal an indoor grower can maximize his space and yield. There is no way I could LST 9 plants in a 4x4 area without removing leaves almost constantly. There is also no way I could pack my tent with as many colas as I do either without selective removal. 

Again, indoors it's all about maximizing your space. I've said it a million times, 20 plants completely defoliated would yeild more then 10 with no leaves removed at all. You might say, "Of course, it's twice as many plants!" Well, that's the point! You can cram way more plants in the same size area. It's not that removing leaves increases yeild per plant, it's that it helps indoor growers maximize their space. 

Look at the scrog guys-they remove leaves and lollipop every branch(remove everything under the screen) and they yeild more then anyone else in the same sized area. Both of those techniques get slammed on these boards, but in all honesty great growers have used them for years to increase yield!


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