# 1oz+ per plant SoG, doable?



## QuentinQuark (Sep 5, 2009)

Hi folks,

What would it take to yield 1oz+ per plant in a zero-veg clone-fed SoG? 4 plants per sq ft.

Clones get a decent set of roots and go directly into the flowering room under 12/12.

So far yields have been kinda dissappointing, but the plants look very healthy so I don't think I'm messing up the growing...

I am looking into different genetics, get a higher yielding strains. But I want to know if there is anything else I can do to achieve this, or am I being unrealistic?


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## MostlyCrazy (Sep 5, 2009)

Got to let the baby grow up to a fine young woman. 3-4 weeks veg would make a huge difference.


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## cyborg (Sep 6, 2009)

quentin, i feel your intentions. im in fact just waiting to get all my equipment so i can clone my four mothers and do a 48 site sog in a 4x4 tent. 600w should give me half a zone each plant. remember that in sog youre planting more plants to make up for veg time. its the same thing but you save weeks of vegging. plus with sog you end up with less production of stems and branches


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## QuentinQuark (Sep 6, 2009)

So 1oz per plant with no veg time and 4 plants per sq ft isn't achievable?


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## MostlyCrazy (Sep 6, 2009)

Depends on the strain. Indica at 4 plants for sq ft has a change of doing that of better. You have to decide it you want to trade zero veg for production. Is this to handle a quick term need or would it be better to veg a bit and get double prodution?


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## QuentinQuark (Sep 6, 2009)

Well I was just thinking that if I want to do perpetual, it would be impossible to do that if I had to veg, because they are all in the same room sharing lights and therefore sharing a lighting schedule.

What is it about vegging that gives a better yield? Better developed roots? More height? Thicker stems? Why does vegging increase yield? It can't be because of more branches/budsites, because all the branches will be trimmed, just growing colas.


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## MostlyCrazy (Sep 6, 2009)

Q,

That what you have to decide also. If you are going colas only you will get a bigger cola from a bigger plant with a bigger stem with bigger roots. It's like the difference of the nutes being able to take the interstate or a country road to the budsite. Sometimes when a young plant has in essence a baby it is smaller than if the plant was more mature. The real change in vegging it is to let the plant grow some bud producing branch growth. Some strains are very branchy while others work better as a single cola or some combination of the two.


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## Treeth (Sep 8, 2009)

fuck yeah it is quentin.

aero (high pressure no less,); CO2; a/c; and using over 50-60 watts of light per foot,

_that_ will yield an ounce per cola or better, especially with well endowed genetics. 

----

No amount of vegging will increase the yield. SOG is the most efficient growing style, absolutely; 

And there is no better way to perform a perpetual harvest. 

you know how to hit over a gram per watt.


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## MostlyCrazy (Sep 8, 2009)

Treeth,

I'd disagree on no amount of vegging affecting the yield. You will have more bud sites if your plant branches heavily and if you fim or top you can get even more. Sog, Scrog, fim, top, supercropping are all just a way to get more bud sites. Certain strains react to different techniques in different ways.


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## Treeth (Sep 9, 2009)

Well of course, 
by growing out a plant you can achieve a greater yield, _per plant_, but not per square foot of used space. My point is, that there will not be an increase in yield under the footprint of your light specifically because it is filled up by one bush instead of lets say four or five cuttings,
3-4 or 5 budsites, _and those are main colas_ _i might add_...
well, i think, how can you possibly garden your way to optimal spacing, when you can start with it... by starting with cuttings?
I feel that there is no more efficient way to, fill the footprint of your light, than with a tightly spaced surface of _all_ main colas,
The advantage to a tree is lost only because any vegitation under the canopy is useless for budding.
Again, it is fun to try,
however you cannot garden to optimal efficacy under a light like you can when you plan for it. 

Especially with anything sativa too.


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## MostlyCrazy (Sep 9, 2009)

Yeah sativa is pretty much out of the question with closet growing. I can compensate for some of the underbud by using side lights. Plus the fact that I can turn that underbud to hash and hash oil which is nice to have as a change of pace sometimes. I also BHO the stems for a little sumpin sumpin! Not much but worth a $5 can of butane. LOL! I think Sog would work best with a E&F tray grow packed tight. I'll get to that at some point.


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## brokeandwise (Sep 9, 2009)

First I want to say that I believe it can be done. If I were to try this my method would be as followers:
1.Northern Light strain
2.Clones with only about 1 week veg
3. 10,000 lumen+ per sq. foot ratio
4. Foxfarm or Advanced nutes with around 1400-1600 ppm without burning
5. co2

seemorebuds does just this (except his lumen per sq foot is around 15000) in a 4x6 area with sometimes 300 plants and yields 5+ pounds dried. Thats in just 24 sq. feet. So its very achievable IMHO.


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## MostlyCrazy (Sep 9, 2009)

Might be for an experienced grower.


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## brokeandwise (Sep 10, 2009)

I believe so. I think I could do it with ebb and flow or DWC.


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## siccmademike (Sep 10, 2009)

well i got a bubbleponics setup for 4 plants.. and i think 4 plants in about 10sq ft +/- its not that big of area with a 400 watt hps... might go to a 600 or 1000 and gonna be using a LED setup for veg and ill be doing a perpetual grow so they veg for 1 month and flower for 2 months im shooting for an OZ a plant possibly more if i just keep 4 in their. i got an OZ per plant off CFLs, the plants were like 1 sq ft


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## MostlyCrazy (Sep 10, 2009)

Still think you are underestimating yourself! To judge production I always use the gram per watt calculations. If I get .8 to 1.2 I consider it a success. That kind of variance can be strain related.


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## QuentinQuark (Oct 12, 2009)

Am I the only one that finds the "gram(s) per watt" calculation somewhat misleading? It only takes into account one resource (light power) and not any of several other important resources, for example space (square footage) and time.

Wouldn't a more appropriate, and less misleading, measure of efficiency be something like grams / (watts * days * sq.ft.)


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## MostlyCrazy (Oct 12, 2009)

Grams per watt does make some assumptions but when you reach for that target at least you have something to measure against. Grams per watt assumes a greenhouse environment.


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## fatman7574 (Oct 12, 2009)

If you calcualted your yield based upon a given space and a given number of kWh used in an indoor situation as described with CO2 4 plats per square foot, high temps ans aeroponics the scrog grow will out do a grow such as the same conditions but with plants at 1 every square foot. While you can increse your veg time and also use more kWh u a you are also decreasing the number of crops over a given period of time. This tends to amke the larger vegged plant production look like more in the short term in a long term of say 6 SOG grows to the 5 (maybe less) longer vegged grows of 1/4 as many plants the SOG will provide a higher yield per kWh for that long term period of time of say one year. SOG's just use the avialable light more efficiently as the PAR is always high both in the vegging and the whole budding area whereas that is not the case with the larger plants as the PAR drops significantly more over their greater heights. Theoretically a given amount of light wattage will provide a greater area the optimal PAR needed on a short SOG grow than it will for a taller plant grow. This maens another added advantage to an SOG as you can get for an example a higher PAR in the whole growing area of a short SOG at 45 to 50 watts per square foot than you can get for an average PAR in the bud growing areas of the taller plants with 60 watts per square foot.


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## Dystopia (Oct 12, 2009)

I'd have to agree with Treeth on this one. In my opinion, in a properly planned grow you veg to fill the canopy with buds. How long you veg depends on how many plants you are growing per square foot for the light(s) you are using.

In a true SOG, 4 plants per sq ft, 1 cola per plant, the canopy will fill with colas even if you go straight to 12/12 so there is really no need to veg in my opinion. And the colas will get as big as the light penetration will support. 1 oz per plant might not be achievable with a 400-watt light, but should be with a 600 or 1000 watt light in proper conditions.


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## tat2ue (Oct 12, 2009)

QuentinQuark said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> What would it take to yield 1oz+ per plant in a zero-veg clone-fed SoG? 4 plants per sq ft.
> 
> ...


I have gotten close to 1oz per plant (dried) but not quite. My setup is clones go straight to flower once clones have good roots. also I cut larger than average clones to begin with. My setup is perpetual with 40 plants harvested every 2 to three weeks. But co2 will be a must to get some size them. 

Best I have achieved so far is 33 zipps dried and bagged from 40 plants, which ain't so bad considering they came from 1/2 of a 3x8 table (12sq ft area)


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## fatman7574 (Oct 13, 2009)

While saying that a person can not get a large yield per plant with a smaller light in a SOG might be true it is far from a fact, as it depends to much upon the grown strains internodal spacing and other strain traits to be a definite either way. To say that smaller lights can not produce the 1 gram per kWh that a 1000 watt light produces would be ludicrous. It is cost of production that matters. That means taking into account the power used over the total hours not the watts used per each hour. A larger bulb does put out more intensity therefore more PAR at say one foot than a 250, 400 or 600 watt light however it also puts out a great more heat and therefore the light is kept further away and that lowers the PAR as PAR loss is exponential. ie at two feet away versus one foot we have representational unit loss of (2)^2 or 4 where at at one foot we only lose (1)^2 or a representaional unit of 1, at 1/2 foot (1/2)^2 = 1/4 respresentational units of PAR . This exponentail drop stars immediatelly at the bulb so it adds up quick. 

As this lesser lesser intensity (and lesser heat) means the smaller light can be placed closer at a lesser loss of representational PAR units a combination of four 250 watt lights will out perform a single 1000 watt light with SOG grows even though the 1000 watt light has a greater Lumen out put. Plus with most set ups a single 1000 watt bulb will provide very uneven PAR whether placed close or at a distance especially if covering any shape much more than a square. It does not cover long rectangles as will multiple smaller bulbs. Comparing a single 1000 watt to a smaller wattage bulb is merely comparing watts per square foot and reflector quality beyond the distance of spacing of the light above the canopy. No matter how you look at the situation with HID lighting if growing short plant SOG the smaller lights have the advantage, where larger wattage lights are really only advantageous iif you prefer larger plants for some reason. Under conditions when you must pay for the intense lighting required for larger plants they have few dvanatges, Advantages such as meeting medical marijuan growing laws etc where you are limited in the number of plants etc. perhaps., or sativa strains that do not respond well to quaick SOG grows. If purchase costs are not considered and long term payback of equipment costs are subtracted to costs it just does not make I since to buy large lights as in both the short run and the long run there are advantages to a multiple of smaller lights while the only real advantage to the the larger lights is a cheaper initial investment and the growing of more costly buds on taller plants. 

Of course it costs more to buy four 250 watt lights than one 1000 watt light. 

Now with eight 250 watt HID lights in a short plant SOG (4 plants/sq foot) would I get a higher yield in a sealed CO2 enriched, dehumidified, temperature controlled, aeroponic grow room with chilled nutrient water then in the same room with two 1000 watt lights growing 1 plant per square foot over the same length of time? Yes. Would the eight 250 watt light SOG's provide more over a period of one year then the larger slower growing plants under the 1000 watt lights over the same year? Yes. If the 1000 watt lights were used with the same SOG would the eight smaller lights produce more than the two larger lights. Yes.


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## greenyield (Oct 13, 2009)

tat2ue said:


> I have gotten close to 1oz per plant (dried) but not quite. My setup is clones go straight to flower once clones have good roots. also I cut larger than average clones to begin with. My setup is perpetual with 40 plants harvested every 2 to three weeks. But co2 will be a must to get some size them.
> 
> Best I have achieved so far is 33 zipps dried and bagged from 40 plants, which ain't so bad considering they came from 1/2 of a 3x8 table (12sq ft area)


how many lights and how many watts did you use for that 12sq ft ?? 

are you running that aeroponics or flood and drain?


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## tat2ue (Oct 13, 2009)

greenyield said:


> how many lights and how many watts did you use for that 12sq ft ??
> 
> are you running that aeroponics or flood and drain?


I have 2 tables that measure 3x8 each and are set up as ebb and flow . Over each table I have 2 1000w HPS lights for a total of 4000w. Each light is ran in a cool tube which is cooled by air from outside the grow room and vented into the attic. The grow room is 8 x 12 and is set up with a/c, dehumidifer, and co2. The temp with all lights blazing during the 12/12 period averages 82 to 87, depending on hot air output from the dehumidifer and the night time temps with lights off is at around 70 to 72 degrees. The strain is mostly blueberry from Marijuanaseeds.NL butafter cutting and growing out over 1000 plants from the mothers I have yet to get any hint of blue in any of the buds. But still the buds are nice and tight and has a very good mix of head and body stone.


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## fatman7574 (Oct 13, 2009)

tat2ue said:


> I have 2 tables that measure 3x8 each and are set up as ebb and flow . Over each table I have 2 1000w HPS lights for a total of 4000w. Each light is ran in a cool tube which is cooled by air from outside the grow room and vented into the attic. The grow room is 8 x 12 and is set up with a/c, dehumidifer, and co2. The temp with all lights blazing during the 12/12 period averages 82 to 87, depending on hot air output from the dehumidifer and the night time temps with lights off is at around 70 to 72 degrees. The strain is mostly blueberry from Marijuanaseeds.NL butafter cutting and growing out over 1000 plants from the mothers I have yet to get any hint of blue in any of the buds. But still the buds are nice and tight and has a very good mix of head and body stone.


 
All right a post with emperical data other than visual. I like that. 

Lots of watts/square foot for a fast grow. What are your number of weeks in the bud cycle and what is your standard approximate tube height above the canopy. What are you allowing for a maximum humidity that the window air conditioner (I asume window airconditioner)is not handling it, or are you just having excess night time humidity while the airconditioner is not running. I am running aeroponic not soil and my airconditioner easily keeps the humidity down when the lights are running and I have water cooled lights. I run only a 5000 btu airconditioner in most rooms and in the rooms where I need more cooling I run in mutiples of 5000 btu units. 

I use window air conditioners as dehumidifiers also and just set them entirely within the room. I only modify them by adding some alluminum shhet metal to direct thw water to a single int for collection. Really the only major difference between a window air conditioner and a dehumidifier is that the dehumidifier blows the air conditioned air (cooled air) through the condensor with the evaporator fan rather than blowing it into the room and using a second fan to cool the condensor with outside air. I find I can get a window airconditioner that will remove the same amount of water as a humidifier for about 1/3 to 1/4 the cost and the operating cost is nearly the same for the same capacity. Cost about the same to run two small fans as one larger fan.
I usually do not get blue colors without at least a 20 to 25 degree temperature difference between day and night temperatures unless I grow a cool grow in one of my remote rooms and have night times temps below 55 degrees.


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## greenyield (Oct 13, 2009)

tat2ue said:


> I have 2 tables that measure 3x8 each and are set up as ebb and flow . Over each table I have 2 1000w HPS lights for a total of 4000w. Each light is ran in a cool tube which is cooled by air from outside the grow room and vented into the attic. The grow room is 8 x 12 and is set up with a/c, dehumidifer, and co2. The temp with all lights blazing during the 12/12 period averages 82 to 87, depending on hot air output from the dehumidifer and the night time temps with lights off is at around 70 to 72 degrees. The strain is mostly blueberry from Marijuanaseeds.NL butafter cutting and growing out over 1000 plants from the mothers I have yet to get any hint of blue in any of the buds. But still the buds are nice and tight and has a very good mix of head and body stone.


thanks for the info tat2ue.
i have been looking and experimenting with different techniques to improve my yield to 1gram per watt.

your 33 zips on a 12sq ft space sounds impressive although you would still be getting slightly less than 1gram per watt (if you take 33x4 for 132oz/ 3742 grams divided by 4000 watts=0.93 gram per watt.) but i use 600 watt lights, i still think it may be worth looking at this setup if i can make a homemade version.


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## greenyield (Oct 13, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> I usually do not get blue colors without at least a 20 to 25 degree temperature difference between day and night temperatures unless I grow a cool grow in one of my remote rooms and have night times temps below 55 degrees.


i think tat2ue means that his blueberry strain has not showed any phenotypes that ripen to a blue colour.


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## fatman7574 (Oct 13, 2009)

greenyield said:


> i think tat2ue means that his blueberry strain has not showed any phenotypes that ripen to a blue colour.


 
And I said I have not gotten the morphing to blue coloration without the stress caused by the temperature differences between night and day meaning it is really not that common of a characteristic with that strain apparently and therefore perhaps the name is an overstatement. There are many seeds of crossed strains in Alaska with stronger bluing characteristics needing less temperature stress to cause the morphing. I have not grown any that make the color change without temperature stressing if that is what you mean in questioning what I wrote.


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## greenyield (Oct 13, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> And I said I have not gotten the morphing to blue coloration without the stress caused by the temperature differences between night and day meaning it is really not that common of a characteristic with that strain apparently and therefore perhaps the name is an overstatement. There are many seeds of crossed strains in Alaska with stronger bluing characteristics needing less temperature stress to cause the morphing. I have not grown any that make the color change without temperature stressing if that is what you mean in questioning what I wrote.


im not questioning you or your knowledge, just giving my opinion on what i thought tat2ue was trying to explain.


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## fatman7574 (Oct 13, 2009)

greenyield said:


> im not questioning you or your knowledge, just giving my opinion on what i thought tat2ue was trying to explain.


I think I know what he is saying. I just have no idea what your trying to say.


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## The Good Doctor (Oct 13, 2009)

Here is the issue with your option. 

During cloning there is almost no hi impact light, and usually no real nutrients. 

This means, that when you go to the flowering stage, there is nothing to work with. It is why Human Babies dont go from a diaper directly to puberty. This is what you are trying to do. 

At the very least do a week of vegging, and you will see a huge difference. You can use your blooming lights for this. 

But if the plants have no stored energy or nutes, why would you get the effect you want? An ounce a plant is not unrealistic, but it is with no vegging at all. Technically, your cloning period is a vegging period, but with no nutes, small roots, and no built up light energy. . . . . . . I am tending to think you will usually not get big results. Remember an ounce for a 6" plant is a shit ton!


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## dontexist21 (Oct 13, 2009)

AB Funct (sp?) gets an ounce per plant in his set up, he just cuts larger clones, 9in. I think it matters on strain, lighting, and how big your clones are when you flower. I don't see why you can not do it with the proper light and clones.


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## The Good Doctor (Oct 13, 2009)

Here is the breakdown. 

You can bud a clone that just started rooting. But why? 

If you can stand to veg for 1 to 3 weeks, you will see bigger and better results. It is that simple. A 3" clone can be budded, but to what end? You are more likely to get more and better bud if you veg. Also how are you going to do any purning/FIM etc. if there is no veg cycle? 

It can work, but you are still going to have to flower for almost the same amount of time. Even if you pull an ounce a clone(if they are less than 12" when you start I would have to bet against you), you would have pulled double or triple or more than that if you had vegged the same strain!

If the idea is time, create a cloner, vegger and flowering area. Then you can stagger your crops, and always have a bud 3 weeks or so out. If you are constantly turning clones into vegging, then trading in vegging for blooing in one area, then cropping the next area. . . and so on. You will see bigger better results quicker. 

If the idea is time and space(you live with mom, at a college, roomates etc.) and you have to keep the plants small, then make sure you have a strain that tends to be small and bushy. Like blueberry or some such strain. Do not use OG, or Big Buds for this method, they love to be tall, and take 70 days just for blooming.


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## The Good Doctor (Oct 13, 2009)

A few more notes on this thread. 

Anyone saying something will or won't happen that have never been in your room is a bit recockulous. If you find that something works for you, stay with it. 

Ultimately though, putting in the time to veg, you will see results. But there are many, many variables, strain, area, medium, light, air co2 etc. Any one of them can make or break your entire crop. I have seen 64 plants under 8 hps lights only yield between 2 and 4 pounds(which is puny for that number scale). I have also seen 6 plants yiled over 5 pounds under 1 light on a mover. So it is very hard to say with any certainty what is right or wrong. Those words shouldn't be used so freely in this conext. 

It is sceintific, but it isn't science. If it works for you, then it is right!

Good luck, let me know what happens. One thing to listen to everyone on, if you want a big pay off/yield, you need to get the right sugars, and definately need CO2! ! !


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## dontexist21 (Oct 13, 2009)

I feel that you can use any plant for SOG as long as you start your clone at a certain height. I have seen SOG with almost pure sativas, the only thing was that the clones were started at 3-5in 12/12. SOG no veg might be better with flowering sativas if space is a issue, DrBud does it with CFL and achieves about 20g per plant in 16oz containers. Imagine using a 400-1000W in .5-1gal. Best thing is to run test on different strains and see how they stretch and work in your system.


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## The Good Doctor (Oct 13, 2009)

Whats the big deal with trying to cut the veg corner? Technically speaking, when you bring plants indoors and only veg for 2 weeks, you are already cutting 2 to 4 months out of the cycle. Marinuana is a year round plant. 

Like I said, you can bloom a 3" clone, but why? If you simply vegged for 2 weeks, you would get 2 ounces or more a plant with the same setup. . . considering vegging is 1 to 3 weeks and blooming is 45 to 70 days. . . it would seem you should just get quick bloomers, and still veg them. Just not as much. 

Simply increasing the bucket size will not increase the yield, its space, nutrients, lights, co2 etc. . . that dictates the yield(as well as strain). 

Yes you can take a 3" OG and get some sort of a bud off of it if you start budding, BUT, this is not what that plant wants. There are dwarf strains that love to be small little bushes. Go with those, and you will see better results.


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## QuentinQuark (Oct 13, 2009)

tat2ue said:


> butafter cutting and growing out over 1000 plants from the mothers I have yet to get any hint of blue in any of the buds


How many different moms from seed? It doesn't matter how many cuttings you take, they are genetically identical to their mom and will not display any characteristics that the mom doesn't have the pheno for.


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## QuentinQuark (Oct 13, 2009)

The Good Doctor said:


> Whats the big deal with trying to cut the veg corner? Technically speaking, when you bring plants indoors and only veg for 2 weeks, you are already cutting 2 to 4 months out of the cycle. Marinuana is a year round plant.
> 
> Like I said, you can bloom a 3" clone, but why? If you simply vegged for 2 weeks, you would get 2 ounces or more a plant with the same setup. . . considering vegging is 1 to 3 weeks and blooming is 45 to 70 days. . . it would seem you should just get quick bloomers, and still veg them. Just not as much.
> 
> ...


One nice thing about zero veg time is that you can do a perpetual harvest under a single set of lights, the lights being shared among the different sets of plants at different stages of flowering. If you are vegging, you need a separate area because of the different light cycle.

I am slowly knocking down issues in my DWC, and getting a larger and larger yield each time with each issue that I knock down (most recently making a tweak to the feeding schedule and moving the fan farther away - HUGE difference!), but I'm still nowhere near 1z per plant. I'm determined to see that happen with no veg time. I may have to look at different genetics to make it happen.

One odd thing I see, I flower clones that are like 2 - 3 inches in height, and they finish at between 12 and 18 inches, so basically a 6x stretch. Not an issue in my space, but that seems kind of high. I do NOT have any heat issues (not anymore anyways  ) and it's not genetics (Purple Kush, indica not sativa). Seems like a LOT of stretch.


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## MostlyCrazy (Oct 13, 2009)

That does seem kind of high. Maybe with clones you have to start figuring stretch after they grow a node or two of their own.


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## QuentinQuark (Oct 13, 2009)

MostlyCrazy said:


> That does seem kind of high. Maybe with clones you have to start figuring stretch after they grow a node or two of their own.


Oh so the standard "stretch" numbers refers to when planted from seed??


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## MostlyCrazy (Oct 14, 2009)

As far as I know, yes. At least that's the way it worked out for me. It actually refers to veg height of a mature plant. Clones are the same age as the mother but the root system and therefore growth potential is not. You have to wait until a clone establishes it's growth pattern and that's why you look for new growth from the clone to start counting stretch.


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## panta (Oct 14, 2009)

im thinking of putting clones straight to flower couse than i can get the extra 800w that i use for veg. and have another table in the floweringroom,i have a limit on the electricity that i can use,so does it make difference to have the clones under a few flourescent lights for a week ina dwc cloner just to grow some bigger roots or can i put em to flower soon as they show roots


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## QuentinQuark (Oct 14, 2009)

panta said:


> im thinking of putting clones straight to flower couse than i can get the extra 800w that i use for veg. and have another table in the floweringroom,i have a limit on the electricity that i can use,so does it make difference to have the clones under a few flourescent lights for a week ina dwc cloner just to grow some bigger roots or can i put em to flower soon as they show roots


It does make a difference to veg them a bit, throw some vegging nutes in there if you have the space and the time.

But you can just move them into the flowering area once they have a decent set of roots, once you start seeing laterals I think you're good to go.


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## panta (Oct 14, 2009)

QuentinQuark said:


> It does make a difference to veg them a bit, throw some vegging nutes in there if you have the space and the time.
> 
> But you can just move them into the flowering area once they have a decent set of roots, once you start seeing laterals I think you're good to go.


soory if my question is dumb but what are laterals,and can i add some nutes in the cloner under a weak light for a week does that make a difference


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## Spazzy (Oct 14, 2009)

I didnt read everyones post jsut basically the first page but I am A sog grower and might be able to help. You can easily get a oz a plant in a sog if you do it right. I get 16 plants in a 4 x 4 tray, as long as you trim the lower branches and use co2 you can get 16 oz per tray pretty easy, i use 600watt per 4x4 but have multiple trays set up in a box formation so there is actually no wasted light. I flower my plants at about a couple of feet and try to rotate the smaller plants to the middle of the tray and larger ones on the outside to ensure the light is as close to plants as possible. Im not a fan of 1000watts you lose light and its soo damn hot with those babies. Get a good strain and your golden, although most strains now have good yields so just do some research and only keep the strongests seeds as mothers to ensure good health babies... GL

Advantages is trimming too a lot less to trim which is probably the most boring and time consuming thing I can ever imagin doing. 
Sogs are easy to get 6 harvests in a year too ;P


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## QuentinQuark (Oct 16, 2009)

panta said:


> soory if my question is dumb but what are laterals,and can i add some nutes in the cloner under a weak light for a week does that make a difference


Laterals are the roots that shoot off sideways from the downwards roots. If you leave them long enough they will become downwards roots and will develop their own roots, and so on.

Yes you can put nutes in your cloner and veg them for a week, but you have to be careful that the roots don't start to tangle together.


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## QuentinQuark (Oct 16, 2009)

Spazzy said:


> I didnt read everyones post jsut basically the first page but I am A sog grower and might be able to help. You can easily get a oz a plant in a sog if you do it right. I get 16 plants in a 4 x 4 tray, as long as you trim the lower branches and use co2 you can get 16 oz per tray pretty easy, i use 600watt per 4x4 but have multiple trays set up in a box formation so there is actually no wasted light. I flower my plants at about a couple of feet and try to rotate the smaller plants to the middle of the tray and larger ones on the outside to ensure the light is as close to plants as possible. Im not a fan of 1000watts you lose light and its soo damn hot with those babies. Get a good strain and your golden, although most strains now have good yields so just do some research and only keep the strongests seeds as mothers to ensure good health babies... GL
> 
> Advantages is trimming too a lot less to trim which is probably the most boring and time consuming thing I can ever imagin doing.
> Sogs are easy to get 6 harvests in a year too ;P


I was asking about 1oz per plant with zero veg time. It sounds like you have some veg time in there. I pack my plants in 4 per sf, whereas you have 1 per sf.


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## QuentinQuark (Oct 16, 2009)

QuentinQuark said:


> Oh so the standard "stretch" numbers refers to when planted from seed??


Good Doctor, and anyone else who recommends vegging if I want to hit the 1oz+ per plant mark:

Do you recommend vegging to increase yields because of more bud sites? Or will vegging improve yields by giving a larger main cola? Remember, I am trimming all lower growth, going for main colas only - will vegging improve yields even in that type of grow?


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## greenyield (Oct 18, 2009)

QuentinQuark said:


> I was asking about 1oz per plant with zero veg time. It sounds like you have some veg time in there. I pack my plants in 4 per sf, whereas you have 1 per sf.


hello quentinquark,
if it was possible to get 1oz per plant with 4 plants per sq ft then you would be able to fit 40 plants in 1sq meter and yield an amazing 40oz.

i think that is very unlikely.
if you dont veg them, they usually yield less as the root mass is less developed so nutrient uptake will not be as good as a plant that has had 7 days+ veg time.

i like to read these type of threads because im interested in achieving maximum yield per meter sq.
if you ever achieve anywhere close to 1oz per plant with 4 plants per sq ft then "I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT IT". seriously.

to give an answer to you regarding veg time: 
i have used 1 plant per sq ft with 14 days veg time, they averaged slightly more than 1oz each in 15 liter pots. using bending techniques and topping a few plants. they were medium yielding though.


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## fatman7574 (Oct 18, 2009)

I find 18 to 20 grams per SOG plant at 4 plants per square foot easily obtainable but I do some veg time also, plus: CO2, high temp, water cooled lights and humidity control. That is about 1.2 to 1.3 grams per watt, but only about 1 gram per kwh. It is pushable to a higher amount but it places the whole system on a finer line, with crashes being quite easy. One popped circuit breaker or an empty CO2 tank etc reeks havoc very quickly if going much beyond that output level. I have lost crops for a variety reasons over the yeras, from not using flow no flow valves for ilight cooling water to using poor grades of pumps and timers, but neraly alwat ys it was when trying to push for maximum yields. Good enough is good enough and anything that means at least an average of 1 gram per lighting kWh is enough as that means about a twenty five or thirty to one long term return on costs.


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## panta (Oct 18, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> I find 18 to 20 grams per SOG plant at 4 plants per square foot easily obtainable but I do some veg time also, plus: CO2, high temp, water cooled lights and humidity control. That is about 1.2 to 1.3 grams per watt, but only about 1 gram per kwh. It is pushable to a higher amount but it places the whole system on a finer line, with crashes being quite easy. One popped circuit breaker or an empty CO2 tank etc reeks havoc very quickly if going much beyond that output level. I have lost crops for a variety reasons over the yeras, from not using flow no flow valves for ilight cooling water to using poor grades of pumps and timers, but neraly alwat ys it was when trying to push for maximum yields. Good enough is good enough and anything that means at least an average of 1 gram per lighting kWh is enough as that means about a twenty five or thirty to one long term return on costs.


did u ever try putting clones soon as they developed roots straight to flower,and is there a difference if i keep about 30-40 clones under a weak light something like 23w flourescent for a week and give em a little bit of nutrients and some root stimulator to enhance root growth would that give a better chance for then to develope into more robust plants and ultimately give better yeild g/w


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## fatman7574 (Oct 18, 2009)

panta said:


> did u ever try putting clones soon as they developed roots straight to flower,and is there a difference if i keep about 30-40 clones under a weak light something like 23w flourescent for a week and give em a little bit of nutrients and some root stimulator to enhance root growth would that give a better chance for then to develope into more robust plants and ultimately give better yield g/w


I have grown from just rooted clones as well as clones that have been vegged for a while. Over time I have just gone to the point where the clones are vegged enough in the cloning area until they are able to withstand full strength nutrients and lighting as well as the other higher parameters before moving them to the 16/8 veg tubes. I do not supply CO2 during clone root development or early veg growth and the clones stay in the small clones tubes when going through early veg growth. I increase their nutrient level every other day for 12 days after they develop roots. I themn move them to the regular veg tubes where they are supplied CO2 in the 16/8 tubes as well as temps nearing the top temps they will later experience as the room air from the budding area is circulated through the veg area. The vegging area has straight halide lighting, but the average air temp is the same as in the budding area. The temp at the canopy area is lower in the veg area as lighting intensity is less. The plants in later veg growth and all through budding receive the same nutrient formulation that is drawn from the same reservoir (it is chilled). Even the earlier veg stage gets the same formualtion accept it is more dilute. The clones start in two inch net pots and remain in two inch net pots throughout the full process. The clones and early veg is done in 3" aero tubes, From there it is 4" aero tubes. I am running intermittant misting at 25 psi in all tubes.

I did not like the rooted clone grows as to much time was spent in slow growth in a high maintenace cost area. I just did not like having clones that could not take the intensity of the fast grow parameters that I supplied by choice to shorten budding times. It has been quite a few years since I have kept fully vegging and/or budding plants at low temps with low lighting and no CO2. The costs are too high for the yields over time with low temps etc.


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## QuentinQuark (Oct 19, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> I find 18 to 20 grams per SOG plant at 4 plants per square foot easily obtainable but I do some veg time also, plus: CO2, high temp, water cooled lights and humidity control. That is about 1.2 to 1.3 grams per watt, but only about 1 gram per kwh. It is pushable to a higher amount but it places the whole system on a finer line, with crashes being quite easy. One popped circuit breaker or an empty CO2 tank etc reeks havoc very quickly if going much beyond that output level. I have lost crops for a variety reasons over the yeras, from not using flow no flow valves for ilight cooling water to using poor grades of pumps and timers, but neraly alwat ys it was when trying to push for maximum yields. Good enough is good enough and anything that means at least an average of 1 gram per lighting kWh is enough as that means about a twenty five or thirty to one long term return on costs.


What kind of trimming and/or training do you do to get 18 - 20 grams per plant at 4 plants per sq ft?


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## fatman7574 (Oct 19, 2009)

You act like that is an extreme amount. Considering the lighting used etc it is not exceptional yield. The lighting during budding is over 1 watt per gram (1.125). Overall the end result is just 1 gram per kwh average considering all lighting combined.

No real special trimming except fan leaf trimming, and no training. I use a lot of short wave blue actinic lighting by combining 6500K halide and actinic top lighting by long tube CFC in early veg and I use 6500K Halide and HPS equally for budding with side lighting from blue actinic CFC long tubes (66.66 watt/sq ft HID and 26.66 watt/sq ft actinic CFC). Besides CO2, humidity control and heta control etc. I also always maintain good calcium, magnesium and all trace elements My increase I believe is from close internodal spacing from balanced lighting etc. and fine intermittant misting at pressures of at least 25 psi. I am collect components to build a higher pressure system now to try to increase hair root development and shortenen up the internode spacing even more by going with an even finer mist (higher pressure) and doing away with aero tubes but instead going to compartments 36" square that are two foot deep. It would be nice to try to get a complete grow without the roots sitting in nutrient water. I might just go with three foot deep chambers. The chambers will be thermal welded FRP panels over plywood with acrylic plastic sectional lids drilled for net pots. The misters low flow high pressure misters and will be inside the compartments. Basically I will go as close as possible to an atomix without the compressed air. If that fails I will try buying atomix systems without there compartments. Costs for shipping the compartments would be rediculous.


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## fishindog (Oct 19, 2009)

i love that 40 site setup...what kind of lights do you have?


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## Treeth (Oct 20, 2009)

Compressed Aero FTW!

damn fatman you know about the 60 watts per foot thang too huh...

Maybe i do need more blue. 

Though,

I kind of like the amount of stretch i get underneath the 800 watts of 630-640 red and marginal uvb cfls i run... 

I'll have to be really critical of my cola formation this run... But I can't wait to get a delevan nozzle inside my res. One hp-aero thread i read, the guru was matter of fact about halving flowering time, finishing his particular strain in something like 40 days. 

I'm sure he did a gram per watt too.


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## fatman7574 (Oct 20, 2009)

I realy want to both increase the yield and shorten the over all time. Its just coming up with that perfect atomizer. I want to see lots of hair roots. No reuse of nutrients, no pooling. I am hoping on finishing a grow in a short enough time to keep the roots shorter than 3 feet long. I have heard of 4 ounce colas one per square foot on an Atomix table. It will be a nice goal to shoot for. Maybe unreasonable but time will tell. It would mean I could sell a lot of pH controllers and conductivity controllers and pumps etc. That would sure be nice.


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## Ap0c0leS (Oct 20, 2009)

Wow this thread has a TON of great information on SOG growing, it is making my head spin. Unfortunatly it also makes me realize that i prematurely jumped into buying equipment without maximum efficency in mind. I have a 9 SQ ft enclosed DR100 Tent with a 250W Aircooled HPS. I purchased an Aero unit, 16 sites with the thought in mind of going from clone to sog style plant with no veg time. First of all i realize now i dont have enough plant sites, and they are not close enough. Help me figure this out guys.. Check it out This is the unit i bought from huge harvest







It uses 2 inch net pots and the spaceing between sites is , well ill let them tell you.

The Clone & Grow 16 uses a 6.75" spacing gap in order to allow plants enough room to develop, as aeroponically grown plants tend to be very bushy. With a full 6.75 inches plants have room to grow and receive sufficient amounts of oxygen

I had a conversation with treeth and i believe we concluded that the spaceing was off. 

With that in mind how would you guys maximize efficiency with this unit?

some of the math...

Only 27.7 w/sqft with the 250W but i do have some LED and other side lighting to get the number more like 46.1 w/sqft 

The light is enclosed with glass and aircooled so it is TOTALLY cool, i can keep my hand right on the glass when it is fully warmed and it is not even uncomfortable! Unfortunatly because of the spaceing i will have to back the light off somewhat to cover the near 9 sq feet the unit takes up.


You guys have a great discussion going on here, please take a look at what i have here and give me your expert opinions!

Treeth knows all about my never ending questions


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## fatman7574 (Oct 20, 2009)

The spacing is not bad. They definitely allowed to much wasted space at the tube ends though and staggered holes would have been a bit better. At least an extra four plant holes could have been incorporated. As is you might as well cut about 3 or 4 inches of tube off both ends of all the tubes so as to lower the area that is lit. The raes a the the ends produce the worse yield generally anyway. I have no idea what your system is using for its nutrient distribution as only delivery pipes to each tube and the reservoir are shown. Does it have mister heads inside the tubes or is it a flood system etc, etc. A AOG with a good cooled lamp can grow a good yield at a firly low wattage/sq ft. If you start getting up into higher wattages then temps and therefore CO2 start becoming a bigger issue. The main focus point now is what is your nutrient distribution system. Plants need plenty of oxygen at there roots so any reccomendation I would make would have to wait until you divulge more an bout what is inside the tubes ie misters or nothing.


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## torontoone (Oct 21, 2009)

So Treeth / Fatman.....

This thread has got me thinking about SOG growing now.

I have 3 4x8 Flood Tables - Each with 2x1000W HPS Air Cooled (cool to the touch)
Co2, A/C, Humidity Control, and a few years experience....

From what your saying I could get up to 8 Pounds per table with 4 per SqFt ?


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## Ap0c0leS (Oct 21, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> The spacing is not bad. They definitely allowed to much wasted space at the tube ends though and staggered holes would have been a bit better. At least an extra four plant holes could have been incorporated. As is you might as well cut about 3 or 4 inches of tube off both ends of all the tubes so as to lower the area that is lit. The raes a the the ends produce the worse yield generally anyway. I have no idea what your system is using for its nutrient distribution as only delivery pipes to each tube and the reservoir are shown. Does it have mister heads inside the tubes or is it a flood system etc, etc. A AOG with a good cooled lamp can grow a good yield at a firly low wattage/sq ft. If you start getting up into higher wattages then temps and therefore CO2 start becoming a bigger issue. The main focus point now is what is your nutrient distribution system. Plants need plenty of oxygen at there roots so any reccomendation I would make would have to wait until you divulge more an bout what is inside the tubes ie misters or nothing.


 
Yes there are smaller tubes inside the big PVC tubes and there are the red spray nozels makeing this an aeroponic system. It uses a submersable pump in the res to pump with a CAP programable timer 1 min on 5 off i believe


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## Ap0c0leS (Oct 21, 2009)

Ap0c0leS said:


> Yes there are smaller tubes inside the big PVC tubes and there are the red spray nozels makeing this an aeroponic system. It uses a submersable pump in the res to pump with a CAP programable timer 1 min on 5 off i believe


The small tubes run down the side of the pipe and there are misters becide every plant site. 

Thanks!


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## greenyield (Oct 21, 2009)

Ap0c0leS said:


> The small tubes run down the side of the pipe and there are misters becide every plant site.
> 
> Thanks!


 do you have any pics of the pipe with the misters?
how did you attach the pipe with the misters inside the larger pipe, what i mean is how is it held in place?
if for example you had this system in your bedroom,what kind of noise would you get at night? low,medium or loud?


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## Treeth (Oct 21, 2009)

yea torontoone,

your productive capacity could be around there. 

Probably better even. Aero, like we're talking about on that scale would do some damage, 

And the systems possible with these nozzles are highly scalable.


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## fatman7574 (Oct 21, 2009)

You might want to watch eBay for a plastic solenoid valve. Using it would allow the pump to run continously. Small pumps like usually are used by manafacturers and most growers for aero systems are made for continous duty. They have very much shortened life spans when repeatedl turned on and off. The solenoid would be set so that when it turned on the water would just run back to the reservoir instead of to the misters. This happens because the water takes the path of least resistance. A unconstricted valves large return pipe supplies less resistance than the nozzles. Before you even use the pump buy a few 200 micron bags to catch particulates and roots and such so your nozzles do not get clogged. http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m38.l1313&_nkw=200+micron+bags&_sacat=See-All-Categories


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## RobMar (Oct 21, 2009)

I veg for 10 days and I average just over an ounce per plant.


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## chronichaze (Oct 21, 2009)

RobMar said:


> I veg for 10 days and I average just over an ounce per plant.


How many square feet is your grow room and how many plants does it contain and what kind of light are you using?


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## RobMar (Oct 21, 2009)

chronichaze said:


> How many square feet is your grow room and how many plants does it contain and what kind of light are you using?


90 sq ft
35 plants
(3) 750 watt lighting

I also use co2


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## gottagrow69 (Oct 21, 2009)

Is it possible for me to get a pound ? I am have 5 thc bombs and 2 sshaze i am using almost 400wtts of cfl for veg and 400hps for flower and i can veg for two months?no co2 just good soil and nutes and really good temps


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## fatman7574 (Oct 21, 2009)

RobMar said:


> I veg for 10 days and I average just over an ounce per plant.


An ounce of what per plant. Your only providing 25 watts per foot of light. How many weeks under that 25 watts per square foot are you budding. Why are you even bothering to use CO2 with low PAR lighting? Your providing over 2.5 square foot of space per plant meaning longer vegging would be the noramal cousre with all that square footage per plant. However with the light spread over such alarge distance the lower levels of the plant would not produce much. Something just doesn,t add up. What are the typical plant heights at harvest? Never ever seen a 750 watt HID light. I assume they are Metal Halide.


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## RobMar (Oct 22, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> An ounce of what per plant. Your only providing 25 watts per foot of light. How many weeks under that 25 watts per square foot are you budding. Why are you even bothering to use CO2 with low PAR lighting? Your providing over 2.5 square foot of space per plant meaning longer vegging would be the noramal cousre with all that square footage per plant. However with the light spread over such alarge distance the lower levels of the plant would not produce much. Something just doesn,t add up. What are the typical plant heights at harvest? Never ever seen a 750 watt HID light. I assume they are Metal Halide.


an ounce of sawdust per plant......wtf do you think i'm talking about......weed!!



I was asked how big my grow room was, not how big my grow area was. That is probably why it doesn't add up. But then again, does it really have to add up? My system works. My plants are between 30-36" when harvested. 

Why bother using co2? because it works.

you should never assume....my bulbs are HPS

P.S. Thanks for the lesson but I got it under control chief


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## fatman7574 (Oct 22, 2009)

RobMar said:


> an ounce of sawdust per plant......wtf do you think i'm talking about......weed!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Caustic little indian be you. You make be seem nice and I am not known for being Mr. C*ongeniality*. So how many weeks did the little indian bud out his wacky weed plants?


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## Ap0c0leS (Oct 22, 2009)

Wait a second what is this about a continious pump? Im not really understanding, if the water would not flow to the misters how would the water actually going to the misters be activated?


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## RobMar (Oct 22, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> Caustic little indian be you. You make be seem nice and I am not known for being Mr. C*ongeniality*. So how many weeks did the little indian bud out his wacky weed plants?


long enough to get my +oz per plant.


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## QuentinQuark (Oct 22, 2009)

Guys, the thread is about clone-fed SoG, 4 plants per sq ft, zero veg time.

The consensus seems to be that it is possible with some veg time, not with zero veg time.

My question is, would veg time increase your yield even if you are trimming everything but the top cola, and if so why? Is it because of the taller height? Is it because there is a build-up of vegging nutes? Better developed roots? Thicker stem? Because if the only reason some veg time increases yields is because of more bud sites, then there's no point since everything but the top cola is getting trimmed.


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## Alaric (Oct 22, 2009)

Hey guys,

Treeth,

You made and interesting point about filling the "light zone" with only the most producing part. I believe a plant increases exponentionaly in mass the larger it becomes-----and bud size is propotional to stem size ------so what is the "sweet spot" for production in terms of plants at what size? pruned how? and spacing within the light zone? 

Alaric


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## synonymous (Oct 22, 2009)

QuentinQuark said:


> Guys, the thread is about clone-fed SoG, 4 plants per sq ft, zero veg time.
> 
> The consensus seems to be that it is possible with some veg time, not with zero veg time.
> 
> My question is, would veg time increase your yield even if you are trimming everything but the top cola, and if so why? Is it because of the taller height? Is it because there is a build-up of vegging nutes? Better developed roots? Thicker stem? Because if the only reason some veg time increases yields is because of more bud sites, then there's no point since everything but the top cola is getting trimmed.


All of those are actually good reasons. Mainly, the roots, stem and height though. Bud sites have nothing to do with it really, since the main cola eventually becomes one bud essentially.


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## fatman7574 (Oct 22, 2009)

The matter of internodal spacing matters a great deal. Close internodes make for fatter, heavier buds and longer cola buds in general. The issue with non vegging is an issue of few things. Is the plant that the clones come from old enough to bud (different strains have different requirements), does it have an adequate enough leaf area to support adequate respiration/tranpiration and can it carry out enough photosyntheis based on leaf area and does it have enough roots to support water and nutrient needs of the photosynthesis. Some auto cycle crosses really do not give the latitude to veg a little longer as they will bud with 16/8 lights. Cloning can circumvent most of these problems with the exception of root area and leaf area. In general though a plant that is left in the veg lighting long enough to build a bit more roots ends up performing better. Is it always necessary? Of course not. There are quite a few crosses that do quite well with a cut back to 12/12 lighting after developing only a few roots. However, even they do better usually with another week or more development under 16/8 lighting. I grow only SOS other than mother plants. My clones grow vegetaively for several weeks as I cut clones just before 12/12 change over meaning the new clones have the time to grow as I use a seperate clone/veg area. I have tried instaed doing shorter vegiing by cy utting later from mother plants but my yields for the same total kWh used was nearly always less for total kWh used and the turn around was no faster because the budding time was not significatly less.


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## QuentinQuark (Oct 24, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> The matter of internodal spacing matters a great deal. Close internodes make for fatter, heavier buds and longer cola buds in general.


Makes sense. So how to you get tight internode spacing during flowering? The stretch that happens during the first weeks of flowering is where you would need to minimize internode spacing... perhaps MH bulb during first two weeks of flowering?



fatman7574 said:


> The issue with non vegging is an issue of few things.


Sigh. It always is, isn't it 



fatman7574 said:


> Is the plant that the clones come from old enough to bud (different strains have different requirements),


Yes, I'm talking mature moms here.



fatman7574 said:


> does it have an adequate enough leaf area to support adequate respiration/tranpiration and can it carry out enough photosyntheis based on leaf area


No idea. My clones usually have one or two internodes, and I keep the fan leaf on with it. Wouldn't the stretch that occurs during the first few weeks of flowering basically nullify this? I mean the plants are completely transformed after the stretch.



fatman7574 said:


> and does it have enough roots to support water and nutrient needs of the photosynthesis.


How would you determine this? I mean, if the clone roots after let's say a week, and then start showing new growth, then isn't it safe to assume that the roots are sufficient to support that new growth? Otherwise it wouldn't start growing would it? Unless by moving from cloning under fluorescents to flowering under 1000w HPS greatly increases photosynthesis, which throws things out of balance? If that is the case, I can see how some veg time in the flowering area would improve things.



fatman7574 said:


> Some auto cycle crosses really do not give the latitude to veg a little longer as they will bud with 16/8 lights.


Lol ya I'm not trying to do clone-fed SoG with autoflower strains !



fatman7574 said:


> Cloning can circumvent most of these problems with the exception of root area and leaf area.


Not sure what you mean there... can you elaborate?



fatman7574 said:


> In general though a plant that is left in the veg lighting long enough to build a bit more roots ends up performing better.


No doubt, but I'm just wondering whether it's possible to get 1oz+ main cola per plant without vegging.



fatman7574 said:


> Is it always necessary? Of course not. There are quite a few crosses that do quite well with a cut back to 12/12 lighting after developing only a few roots. However, even they do better usually with another week or more development under 16/8 lighting. I grow only SOS other than mother plants. My clones grow vegetaively for several weeks as I cut clones just before 12/12 change over meaning the new clones have the time to grow as I use a seperate clone/veg area. I have tried instaed doing shorter vegiing by cy utting later from mother plants but my yields for the same total kWh used was nearly always less for total kWh used and the turn around was no faster because the budding time was not significatly less.


So you veg your clones, then take a bunch of cuttings off them before flipping over to 12/12. You then root those cuttings, and veg them until the plants in flower are harvested, load up the flowering area again, and repeat? If so, that's a LONG veg time! I'm assuming you keep the sites in your cloner pretty close together, how do you stop the roots from knitting together? When you take the cuttings, do you take them off the top or the bottom? I can see this working if you take them off the top, but if you take them off the bottom that would be some badass stretch!!


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## fatman7574 (Oct 24, 2009)

The clone cuttings are kept in a refrigerator for 15 to 20 days prior to vegging except for two or three placed in rock wool in hydroton within pots for back up.

IMHO my closer internodal spacing is a result of a combination of increased actinic blue lighting through a comination of 6500K halide, HPS at 50:50 ratio with additioan supplementation from long Tube CFC actinics. Add to this a fairly high pressure low micron aero system. At present only 25 psi with intermittant spray. It has reduced my internodal spaco ing to approximattely 1/3 of the spacing of continous low pressure aero. Other than the better environment for the roots producing some hair roots other than just tap and secondary the plants just received the climate control (temperature/humidity) and CO2. The lighting is also all low wattage HID (250 watt) that is water cooled with reflectors made of Anolux Miro that alledges a reflectivity of over 95%. The Clones typically have at least 5 internodal spacing by the time they are at 12/12. They cutting are at the third internodal and the lower are removed.

I get at least three times the internodal spaces now that I received with just HPS/Halide and low pressure Aero misters. The misters are also about 1/5 the volume of spray as previous nozzles so the plants and cyuttings are all reciving about 1/30 of the misting they were previously receiving with continous mist.

I have used many auto strains up here due to years of green house grows. I found refrigeration of cuttings suspends them quite well so that I still have adequate time for some vegging.

Oh, it might sound cruel or counter productive, but when I am rooting out cuttings and have them in early vegetative growth I pick up the net pots almost completely or even completely out of the tube holes and spin the pots at least 270 degress at least once every 48 to 72 hours so as to keep the root growth tight and not as intertwined with its neighbors. It also keeps the roots heavier near the pot where there is more hair root development anyway. Yes I occasionally lose some roots and occasionally even lose more when transferring the pots to the budding tubes.


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## sow217 (Oct 25, 2009)

RobMar said:


> I veg for 10 days and I average just over an ounce per plant.


what light set up do you use? Could you give us a little more info on your set up and number of plants. Great work


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## fatman7574 (Oct 25, 2009)

RobMar

Read that before. You still have not written the total weeks of budding so the final yield means little. Besides this is a thread about SOG not tall widely spaced plants. Three foot plus plants is some extreme stretching for 10 days of vegging and hardly puts them in the typical SOG realm.


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## Buddreams (Oct 25, 2009)

MostlyCrazy said:


> Q,
> 
> That what you have to decide also. If you are going colas only you will get a bigger cola from a bigger plant with a bigger stem with bigger roots. It's like the difference of the nutes being able to take the interstate or a country road to the budsite. Sometimes when a young plant has in essence a baby it is smaller than if the plant was more mature. The real change in vegging it is to let the plant grow some bud producing branch growth. Some strains are very branchy while others work better as a single cola or some combination of the two.



would super cropping help, in this guys case?


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## fatman7574 (Oct 25, 2009)

I base things in a SOG grow on having more than a few roots on the young plants rather than any other factor. If I could get good roots established in 10 days I would start budding at 14 days, if it takes 21 days to get a good root system then I bud at 21 days etc etc. Top growth as long as it occurs enough to produce one or two cuttings is enough for me as I do not cut cuttings from mother plants as a routine as the cuttings seem to finish at different times more so when taken from different levels of mother plants. I harvest a grow all at once not in parts.


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## MostlyCrazy (Oct 25, 2009)

I think we are all trying to get as many bud sites to see the light as possible. With Sog it happens at 1' and with mature plants and a well managed canopy you get I get it at about 3'.

The heavy brancing strains lend themselves to supercropping. Height limits can also come into play. Before I did my recent modifications my max finish height was about 36". Had a couple buds get to 32" and I supercropped them moderatly (45 degree angle instead of my usual 90 degree angle. I supercrop for canopy management and an even canopy mostly.


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## Shrubs First (Oct 25, 2009)

tat2ue said:


> I have gotten close to 1oz per plant (dried) but not quite. My setup is clones go straight to flower once clones have good roots. also I cut larger than average clones to begin with. My setup is perpetual with 40 plants harvested every 2 to three weeks. But co2 will be a must to get some size them.
> 
> Best I have achieved so far is 33 zipps dried and bagged from 40 plants, which ain't so bad considering they came from 1/2 of a 3x8 table (12sq ft area)


That is sick, I have yet to complete a full harvest on my setup... I'll be doing 16 plants in two 2'x4' trays in my 5x5 hut.... I'll also have my trays waist high (no bending over), one week veg, tryin for 1 1/2 zips per plant, maybe i'll match you


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## Shrubs First (Oct 25, 2009)

Buddreams said:


> would super cropping help, in this guys case?


No super cropping lengthens veg time from what I've read


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## MostlyCrazy (Oct 25, 2009)

That hasn't been my experience. Box says 55-60 days and I cut at 8 weeks or slightly less each time and supercrop freely.


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## kpw555 (Oct 28, 2009)

The Good Doctor said:


> Here is the issue with your option.
> 
> During cloning there is almost no hi impact light, and usually no real nutrients.
> 
> ...





The Good Doctor said:


> Here is the breakdown.
> 
> You can bud a clone that just started rooting. But why?
> 
> ...


I have expereminted with PPP,White Widow and Bubblegum. 

A tall (7-9 inch) clone produced better results in my garden because the plants get taller for the first few weeks anyway. If it has a veg start already, the bottom branches ran out instead of staying close to the main stem and creating a big juicy bud. Maybe close to the same yield but strung out way more.


The 1-2 week vegged clones are also much harder and more tedius to harvest than a single nice cola. 

No experience with co2 yet, love to try it. Maybe the next grow.


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## fatman7574 (Oct 28, 2009)

CO2 is very addictive. Once you see the increased plant vigor, growth and yield you will wonder why you tooks so long to try it. Usually with CO2 comes higher temps as you are usually sealing up your system and that means a higher effort needed to keep the humidity down. My self I run at least 62 to 70 watts per square foot, mid to high eighty temps, medium (25 psi) pressure intermittant aerophonics, with CO2 and I run 40% humidity. I use mainly an airconditioner to dehumidify, but also have a seond window air conditioner in the plant room entirely to use as a dehumidifier when I need to dehumidify and not cool. That does not often happen except at night. Window airconditioners are cheaper than dehumifiers and have basically the same efficiencies at dehumidification. I also use a combination of water and aircooled lights. I have a chiller made from a window airconditioner. The yield per operation cost is definitely more than adequate. As long as you are willing to do what it takes to balance everything in the system for fast high yield I am quite certain you will like the difference CO2 makes. [email protected] should cut at least 20% off your time and improve yield 50% to 100% or more if all other adjustments and controls are also used for a good parameter balance.


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## greenyield (Oct 30, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> As long as you are willing to do what it takes to balance everything in the system for fast high yield I am quite certain you will like the difference CO2 makes. [email protected] should cut at least 20% off your time and improve yield 50% to 100% or more if all other adjustments and controls are also used for a good parameter balance.


 you are confused as to what % extra yield co2 will give you, it is up to 20% -25%.

fuck, if i could get your claim of 50% to 100% of improved yield just for the small price of co2 that costs me £60 per grow if i use it, then i would have my own spaceshuttle by now and i could join you on your own fucking planet.
i have to call you out on this one and say that you are running off at the mouth.


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## fatman7574 (Oct 30, 2009)

I clearly did not say that just simply using a little CO2 will provide that much extra yield. I said if you bump everything up to the max so as to get all that you can with the CO2 you can get 50% to 100% greater yield. But that means also climate control a good nutrient delivery system i.e. mid or high pressure aero, higher temps, lower humidity and as much balnaced PAR as the plants can take without providing to much. You posted what I wrote and it is not what you are implying I wrote. "if all other adjustments and controls are also used for a good parameter balance," means what i just wrote. You need to do it all if you want the highest yield. If you bump one thing up you should bump evert ything else up also. CO2 will do very little if all other things are not also bumped up. Ie if you provide say 75 watts per square foot, 86 degrees at 40% humidity, a good aero system and good nutrients and just circulate fresh air into the room with a CO2 ppm of 350 you will likey just cook your plants or have stringy long internode plants at best. However take tha same room with all the same parameters and seal it up and set the CO2 ppm at 2000, you will definitely have very high yields very quickly. That is what I mean by balance every thing for fast high yield. However this typically means air conditioning, dehumidification and therefore larger investments.


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## tat2ue (Oct 31, 2009)

greenyield said:


> you are confused as to what % extra yield co2 will give you, it is up to 20% -25%.
> 
> fuck, if i could get your claim of 50% to 100% of improved yield just for the small price of co2 that costs me £60 per grow if i use it, then i would have my own spaceshuttle by now and i could join you on your own fucking planet.
> i have to call you out on this one and say that you are running off at the mouth.


Not taking side here but I have a sealed flower room (8x12) with 2 ebb and flow tables (3x8 ea) with 80 netpots per table. I have ran perpetual grow in it since March of this year with 40 rooted clones going straight into flower every 2 to 3 weeks. Ea table has 2 1000w HPS in cool tubes. Before I added CO2 to the room I was averaging about 1.0 to 1.25 lbs of dried and cured bud per 12 sf (1/2 of ea table) and on average it was taking 10 week for ea section to mature for harvest..A cpl months ago I add CO2 , added an add'l window a/c unit to supplement the central a/c duct I ran into the room, also added a dehumidifer unit to handle to god awful ammt of humidity I have where I live. I also raised my ppm in the nute tank which is a 125 gallon central tank that supplies both tables I now have everything 99% dialed in and the results are as follows....

2 weeks has been cut off each cycle to harvest

I am averaging 2 lbs of dried/ cured bud per 12 sq ft (1/2 table) as opposed to 1.0 to 1.25 lbs before

Buds are about 30% bigger and rock hard.

I ain't gonna buy the space shuttle but I am shopping for a Fat Boy for X-mas...lol

So adding CO2 to my setup and tweeking all the variables has paid off BIG time for me. So running off at the mouth...I don't think so...JMO


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## Budpirate (Mar 19, 2011)

Bringing this back from its 2 year grave.. lol

I'm hoping people with experience on the subject will jump in. 

The subject that very few people forgot to mention is what size clones they be taking.. some say 2-3" and seen 9" ones too. 
i guess that has a lot to do with the final result.


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## Hansa (Aug 22, 2020)

4x4 eq 16 ft x 4 oz eq 64 oz eq 3gpw no i dont Think no one has done that before using 600w hps or hid


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