# Soil Food Web Gardening with Compost Teas



## trichome fiend (Apr 26, 2011)

*Soil Food Web Gardening *
*...with compost teas*​
...(text from the book, "Teaming with Microbes" written by Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis)​...any questions or comments about the book are welcome, I'd love to discuss it.
...+ REP if you like.



*....the 19 rules!*
1) Some plants prefer soils dominated by fungi; others prefer soils dominated by bacteria.
2) Most vegetables, annuals, and grasses prefer their nitrogen in nitrate form and do best in bacterially dominated soils.
3) Most trees, shrubs, and perennials prefer their nitrogen in ammonium form and do best in fungal dominated soils. 
4) Compost can be used to inoculate beneficial microbes and life into soils around your yard and introduce, maintain, or alter the soil food web in a particular area.
5) Adding compost/ compost teas and its soil food web to the surface of soil will inoculate the soil with the same soil food web.
6) Aged, brown organic materials support fungi; fresh, green organic materials support bacteria.
7) Mulch laid on the surface tends to support fungi; mulch worked into the soil tends to support bacteria.
 If you wet and grind mulch thoroughly, it speeds up bacterial colonization.
9) Coarse, dryer mulches support fungal activity.
10) Sugars help bacteria multiply and grow; kelp, humic and fulvic acids, and phosphate rock dusts help fungi grow. 
11) By choosing the compost you begin with and what nutrients you add to it, you make teas that are heavily fungal, bacterially dominated, or balanced.
12) Compost teas are very sensitive to chlorine and preservatives in the brewing water and ingredients. 
13) Applications of synthetic fertilizers kill off most or all of the soil food web microbes. 
14) Stay away from additives that have high NPK numbers.
15) Follow any chemical spraying or soil drenching with an application of compost tea.
16) Most conifers and hardwood trees (birch, oak, beech, and hickory) form mycorrhizae with ectomycorrhizal fungi.
17) Most vegetables, annuals, grasses, shrubs, softwood trees, and perennials form mycorrhizae with endomycorrhizal fungi. 
1 Rototilling and excessive soil disturbance destroy or severely damage the soil food web.
19) Always mix endomycorrhizal fungi with the seeds of annuals and vegetables at planting time or apply them to roots at transplanting time. 



*Compost Tea*---- Compost tea puts the microbiology back into soils. It's a good thing because there's some practical problems associated with the other 2 options, compost and mulches. Besides the effort of turning a compost pile, if you have a decent-sized garden and lots of trees and shrubs, carting compost and mulches around and applying them can be hard work. You also have to have lots and lots of both if you are working on anything but a small yard. But what are the chief problems with compost and mulches? They take a while to reach the rhizosphere. And neither mulch nor compost sticks to leaves. Plants generate exudates from their leaves, attracting bacteria and fungi to the phyllosphere, the area immediately around the leaf surfaces. As in the rhizosphere, these microbes compete with pathogens for space and food and in some cases can protect the leaf surfaces from attack. You cannot immediately introduce this microbiology into the rhizosphere, or into the phyllosphere at all, with compost or mulch.
Actively aerated compost teas, on the other hand, are usually easy to apply---both soil and leaf surfaces---and are put right where they are needed. They are a fast, inexpensive, and definitely fascinating way to manage soil food web microbiology in your yard and gardens, handily overcoming the limitations of compost and mulch. 


*What AACT is not*

Do not confuse actively aerated compost tea with compost leachates, compost extracts, or manure teas, all of which have been employed by farmers and gardeners for centuries. 
Compost leachate is the liquid that oozes out of compost when it is pressed or when water runs through it and leaches out. Sure, these concoctions get a bit of color and may have some nutrient value, but leachates do little to impart microbial life to your soils: the bacteria and fungi in compost are attached to organic matter and soil particles with biological glues; they don't simply wash off. 
Compost extract is what you get when you soak compost in water for a couple weeks or more. The end result is an anaerobic soup with perhaps a bit of aerobic activity on the surface. The loss of aerobic microbial diversity alone (not to mention the risk of it's containing anaerobic pathogens and alcohols) suggests that compost extracts are not worth the effort. We don't consider it safe or advisable to use them. 
Manure tea, created by suspending a bag of manure in water for several weeks, is also anaerobic. Using manure is asking fro pathogenic problems and, especially under anaerobic conditions, virtually assures the presence of E.coli. We want the beneficial microbes to be working in our soils and to get these; you have to keep things aerobic. 


*Modern compost tea*

Modern compost teas, on the other hand, are aerobic mixtures. If the tea is properly made it is a concentrate of beneficial, aerobic microbes. *The bacterial population, for example, grows from 1 billion in a teaspoon of compost to 4 billion a teaspoon of an actively aerated compost tea. *These teas are made by adding compost (and some extra nutrients to feed its microbes) to dechlorinated water and aerating the mix for one or two days. It is this mixing, or active aeration that brings old-fashioned anaerobic compost teas into the modern era; it is also what keeps these compost teas aerobic, and thus safe. The air supply must be sufficient to keep the tea aerobic throughout the entire process. 
It takes energy to separate microbes from compost. You know how much energy you have to use daily (or should) to remove another form of bacterial slim: plaque on your teeth. Bacterial slime in soils is just as strong. Consider, as well, that fungal hyphae grow not only on the surface of compost crumb but inside its nooks and crannies; you have to use energy to pull these strands off and out in addition to getting the bacteria "unglued." Of course, too much energetic action can kill these microbes. A brewer's action must be strong enough to tease out the microbes but not so strong that the microbes are killed once they are out of the compost and into the tea. 


*The brewer*

More and more compost tea brewers are on the marker. These range from small, 5- to 20-gallon systems that can easily make enough tea to take care of a few acres (about 1.2 hectares) to commercial brewers capable of producing up to a thousand gallons or more of tea per brew. The Internet is a good place to look for compost tea brewers and compare them. Manufacturers should be able to show tests demonstrating that their machines can extract viable populations of fungi as well as bacteria. Only biological test will tell you the numbers. Insist on seeing one, and if they don't have one, don't buy the machine. 
You can also make an actively aerated compost tea brewer. It is very easy and our suggestions for those just starting with teas. All you need is one of those ubiquitous five-gallon plastic buckets; add to this an aquarium air pump (the biggest you can afford) and air stone, and about 4 feet (1.2 meters) of plastic tubing to use with it. The better pumps have two air outlets; if you cannot get a double-outlet pump, use at least two single outlet pumps. Sufficient aeration is critical. Once your system is operation, you will know if you have enough air. If the tea smells good, things are fine. If it starts to smell bad, the tea is going anaerobic. 
We learned in physics that the smaller the bubbles, the higher the surface to air ratio and thus more air exchange with the water, but when bubbles get too small, under 1 millimeter, they can cut up microbes. Aquarium air stones work well as long as you remember to keep them (and the plastic tubing that attaches them to the pump) clean. 


*Sitting and cleaning the brewer*

Temperature is important when brewing compost teas. If it is too cold, microbial activity slows. If temperatures get too high, then the microbes are literally cooked or go dormant. Room temperature is ideal. Keep track of the water temperature. This is one of the variables you can adjust later, if need be, and a record of this information will be helpful to the lab testing your samples. If you cannot site your brewer in a warm place with steady temperatures, then a small, inexpensive aquarium heater might be needed; these come with automatic thermostats. If it is too hot where you make tea, you may have to consider "packing" your bucket with ice or occasionally adding ice to it to keep temperatures down. 
Compost tea should be made away from direct sunlight because its ultra-violet rays kill microbes. And, since the proteins (worm bodies, primarily) in compost have a tendency to foam in the tea; make sure you keep your brewer in a spot that can tolerate some spillage. 

It should be obvious but must be noted that it is important to clean up right away when making actively aerated compost teas. Bacterial slime is strong stuff and can clog the air holes in bubblers and tubing. This bioslime will appear in the strangest places. It will stick to the sides of the bucket and accumulate in the crevice at the bottom of the bucket. You may have to take apart hoses and fittings to clean them thoroughly. So, even before you use your tea, clean your system. If you get to it while it is still wet, you can usually wipe it off or "blow" it off with the force of water from a hose; at a minimum, flush it with water. Use a 3% hydrogen peroxide product or a solution of 5% baking soda to clean slime that has dried.


*Ingredients*

Actively aerated compost teas contain lots of bacteria, fungi, nematodes, and protozoa because that's what's in compost. What makes these teas such a good soil food web tool (besides the high concentration of microbes) is that you can tailor-make AACTs to feed plants according to their specific needs by adding certain nutrients (see Rule #10)? Use Rule #10, which applies equally to compost, mulches, and soil, when you make compost tea, and it evolves into Rule #11: by choosing the compost you begin with and what nutrients you add to it, you can make teas that are heavily fungal, bacterially dominated, or balanced. For many, the brewing process grows into a hobby in and of itself, not unlike making beer. 
All recipes, however, start with the basic ingredients, the first being chlorine-free water. Rule #12 is very important: compost teas are very sensitive to chlorine and preservatives in the brewing water and ingredients. It is vitally important that none of the ingredients you use contain any preservatives. This makes sense. After all, these chemicals are intended to kill or discourage microbial life. If you are served by a water system that uses chlorine, you will need to fill your brewing container with water and run air bubbles through it for an hour or two. The chlorine will evaporate, making the water safe for microbes. Carbon filters and reverse osmosis water systems also work well to remove both chlorine and chloramines, and are particularly useful if you need large quantities of water. As a general rule, a carbon filter containing one cubic foot of carbon will filter four gallons of water a minute. 
Next, you need to use good compost (forgive this redundancy: to us, all compost is good, or it isn't compost). Again, make sure there are no chemical remnants in it, and by all means give it the sniff test. If it doesn't smell good, it isn't good compost. Obviously, the best way to know is to have it tested. Avoid "almost compost," compost that hasn't finished the process or has gone stinky are anaerobic. Don't bother with compost that was allowed to overheat, killing beneficial microbes and reducing its soil food web. If you have a low diversity of microbes in your compost, you will have low diversity in your tea. 
Vermicastings are a good substitute for compost. These are full of benefiticial microbes and tend to be very bacterial (remember the role bacteria play inside the worm, digesting food), especially when they are fresh. For the initial five-gallon brew, you will need approximately four cups of either compost or vermicompost. You can use proportionately less compost the bigger the brew. 
As for the extra ingredients, you can feed the microbial population while teas are brewing. Molasses (nonsulphured, so as not to kill the microbes) in powdered or liquid form, cane syrup, maple syrup, and fruit juices all feed bacteria in teas and increase their populations. Two tablespoons of any of these simple sugars in four or five gallons of water will help bacteria multiply and establish dominance. If you make a bigger brew, add more nutrients in the same proportion: the amount of all added nutrients will vary linearly as you increase the size of your brew. More complex sugars and fish emulsion are also good bacterial food, though both will also support some fungal growth. 
To encourage fungal growth in compost teas, add kelp, humic and fulvic acids, and phosphate rock dusts, which not only provide the fungi with nutrient value but also give them surfaces to attach to while they grow. _Ascophyllum nodosum _is cold-weather kelp that can be purchased over the Internet, at garden centers, and even animal feed stores, where it is often sold as powdered algae. The pulps of fruits like oranges, blueberries, and apples will also help fungi grow in compost teas, as will aloe vera extract (without preservatives) and fish hydrolysate (which is essentially enzymatically digested ground-up fish bones and all). You can buy fish hydrolysate at some nurseries or make your own by adding papain (aka papaya peptidase) or kiwi (which also contains the appropriate enzymes) to a blend of fish to enzymatically digest the bones. Yuca and zeolites are also good fungal foods and do not support populations of bacteria. 


*Give fungi a head start*

Many new to tea brewing become frustrated because it can be difficult to grow fungi in quantities sufficient to make a balanced tea, much less a fungally dominated one. This is because bacteria not only grow but multiply rapidly in tea for fungi to multiply in tea----they only grow bigger. The better way is to activate fungi in the compost prior to making tea, allowing populations to multiply before they are teased out of the compost and into the tea brew. 
This activation is easily accomplished: several days before brewing the tea, mix the compost with simple proteins that serve as a good fungal food----such things as soybean meal, powdered malt, oatmeal, oat bran, or, best of all, powdered baby oatmeal. Thoroughly mix in one of these at the rate of three or four tablespoons per cup of compost. Make sure there is sufficient moister in the compost, which is to say a drop of moisture can be squeezed out of a fistful of it. Put the mixture in a container, and place the container in a warm, dark place. A seed-germinating mat, placed beneath the container, works great to provide the proper heat. 
After about three days at 80F (27C), the fungi in your compost, if you had sufficient numbers of them in the first instance, will have grown, and their invisible threads merged into a network of visible mycelia. The compost look like Santa Clause's beard, covered with long, white, fluffy strands. In a few days, there will be so many fungal threads; the entire container of compost will be glued together. 


*Teatime*

Once you turn your machine on, the bubbles agitate the compost and start peeling microbes off and out of it. Depending on the compost and the nutrients, you may experience a bit of foaming; this can signal that worm protein is being released from the compost----a good thing. You can add mycorrhizal fungi at the very end of the brew cycle. If you put spores into the tea while it is being made, either they will be destroyed or the fungal hyphae they produce will be destroyed---they are both very fragile; also, since mycorrhizal fungi live off of root exudates, they and the tea must reach plant roots quickly. 
It takes between 24 and 36 hours to develop a good tea using our simple bucket bubbler; some commercial brewers, with their high-energy systems, make tea in 12 hours. In any case, during the course of brewing, tea turns coffee-brown, another favorable sign: the humates in the compost are being teased out into the tea. The temperature of the brew may also increase a few degrees, a result of increased metabolic activity. The best part is the smell. The smell of a compost tea, especially when molasses is used as a nutrient, is a healthy, sweet, earth smell. 
Compost tea has a very short shelf life. So many microbes now populate the brew that they quickly deplete the nutrients and start eating each other; more important, they are using up all the oxygen. If you are offended by the odor of a tea, it has probably gone anaerobic and should be discarded; do not toss it on your plants, for obvious reasons. It is best to use compost tea within four hours of manufacture, though it will last, diminishing in populations, for about three to five days if kept refrigerated or if you continue to bubble air through it. 
After you have had some experience making teas, you may want to modify your machine in order to make better and better teas, meaning those that have higher numbers of microbes. 


*Application*

Right at the outset we will tell you that you can never apply too much compost tea (our research shows no ill effects from unlimited applications). It doesn't burn plant roots or leaves, and the microbiology in the tea will adjust to the nutrients available at the site. Repeatedly applying compost tea will only help increase diversity of the microbial populations in your soils.
Once the tea is ready, apply it as a soil drench using a cup, a plastic watering can (bacteria can impact the zinc in metal containers), or (if the tea has been strained) a hand pump sprayer. Since compost tea will "stick" to leaf surfaces, you can inoculate leaves with foliar spray of beneficial microbes. To be effective as a foliar spray, the tea must cover 70% of the leaf surface. Cover both sides of the leaves. When applying compost teas to soils, drench your plants and the area around them with the tea. You cannot overdo it. 
And don't forget the sun: ultraviolet rays kill microbes. If you live in southern latitudes, you will want to apply before 10 am or after 3 pm, when UV rays are weakest, even on a cloudy day. There is no microbial sun block lotion. It can take 15 to 30 minutes for bacteria or fungal hyphae to attach themselves to a leaf (where they can get some protection) ---far too long a period to be exposed to the sun's rays. Alternatively, spray with a drop diameter of at least 1 millimeter; with that much water, bacteria can develop enough slime to establish themselves before the water even evaporates. UV rays can also negatively affect the microbiology in soil drenches, but you can be a bit more relaxed a bit out the timing of these since the microbes sink into the soil and leaf duff layer almost immediately. 
Remember, you are dealing with living organisms here. The microbes you carefully cultivated and nurtured in your tea are very much alive and require gentle treatment. Sprayers must not exceed pressures of 70 pounds, and the velocity of the spray should be slow. Either stand back or turn the spray head up, so that the tea drops "parachute" down to the surfaces to be covered; there should be no forceful "splatting" of the tea onto the soil or lawn or plants, as this is what will sometimes kill the plant, not the pressure of the tank. Electrostatic sprayers, incidentally, may destroy microbes by putting the wrong charge on them, so test the tea from such a sprayer before using one. 
It is possible to use a hand pump sprayer if you strain your tea, but you must take care not to strain the microbes out. The mesh of any "compost sock" should be at least 400 micrometers, which is big enough to let fungi and nematodes flow through but will keep out particulate matter that will clog conventional sprayers. Alternatively, you can decant a tea solution by letting it sit for 15 minutes after the aeration is stopped. This gets rid of a lot of the bits and pieces; the bad news is that often the amount of fungi in the ea is diminished.
You will be better off if you invest in a concrete sprayer, only with fewer bends, larger orifices, and nozzles that support bigger particles. For prices and availability, check with your local builders supply store, concrete contractor, concrete supply store, or sand and gravel company. A gasoline backpack mist sprayer is also appropriate, especially for a large yard. A great way to do a lawn is to use a traveling sprinkler with a fertilizer dispenser feeding tea into the water stream.
Whether sprayed or poured, the microbes in the tea will establish themselves, grow, breed, attract predators, eat and be eaten, or go dormant. They create protective barriers around the roots and release nutrients when they die. They create and improve soil structure. They make protective barriers on leaves and compete with bad guys there as well. 
Compost teas go to work immediately, and for this reason it is important that the tea applied be a good one, full of beneficial organisms, not diseases or pathogens. There is little room or tolerance for a poorly made tea. If you are not up to the job yourself, you can purchase AACTs from an ever-growing number of commercial nurseries and garden center; some companies not only make but will apply compost teas for you. In either case, it is still advisable to ask for test to see how the tea measures up and, of course, don't be afraid to give commercially made teas the smell test before buying or applying them. They may have started out fine but hone anaerobic before sale. 
you can apply AACTs as often as you like, but how often you need to apply them (especially if you are paying for them) depends, as you can imagine, on the status of the soil food web organisms in the areas concerned. First-timers should get a base reading on microbiology and arthropod counts before "taking up" this very effective tool. As your soil food web becomes healthier, you'll need to apply tea less often. Thus, if your yard has had applications of chemical fertilizers for years, you should put down compost tea every other week for 3 months to establish a healthy soil food web population. Then you can start applying tea once every month for a season and finally three times a year. 
How much compost tea should you apply in any given session? For two years one of us used about 60 gallons a week on a quarter-acre lot with positive results. The general rule, however, is to apply five gallons of compost tea per acre as a soil drench, ten gallons if you are going to spray leaves as well. It is fine to dilute the tea: just make sure there were five gallons when you started. When you are more experienced, you can match the amount of tea you apply with soil test and tea test to achieve specific fungal or bacterial ratios. 


*Timing*

When it comes to out competing disease organisms in the soil or phyllosphere, fungally dominated teas have been used to prevent and suppress the growth of powdery mildew _(Erysiphe graminis _on turf, _Phytophthora _spp. on rhododendrons_)_, downy mildew (_Sclerophthora _spp.), take-all (_Gaeumannomyces _spp.), gray snow mold (_Typhula _spp.), pink snow mold (_Microdochium _spp.), rusts (_Puccinia _spp.), and fairly rings (all sorts of fungi).
Bacterially dominated teas have been useful in out competing pathogens in mild cases of dollar spot, necrotic ring spot, yellow patch, leaf spots, pink patch, and stripe smut. Insects too succumb to the effects of compost teas, specifically weevils, grubs, cut-worms, and chafers; several reports attest to negative impacts on whiteflies, fire ants, and scale. 
At the first sign of disease or insect infestations on any of your plants, apply teas and repeat in five to seven days...you should also apply teas in advance to prevent breakouts. 
Compost teas are a veritable liquid soil food web. Instead of lugging around wheelbarrows of compost, consider compost teas, a concentration of the same microbiology. When you use them, you are really teaming with microbes. 


*Annuals and vegetables prefer bacterially dominated soils*

What are the soils in your vegetable and flower beds like? Look for earthworms. They survive by eating protozoa and bacteria, and, as with lawns, if you have lots of earthworms and earthworm castings in your soils, then you probably have bacterially dominated soils with plenty of nitrates, which are what most vegetables and annuals prefer (remember Rule #2). Set up the Berlese funnel and see what kinds of micro arthropods are roaming the soils. You want to see lots of bacteria- eating mites and good diversity of animals. Measure your soil's pH in the rhizosphere. If it is decidedly alkaline, you most probably have a bacterial dominance. Similarly, an acidic reading means you have fungi and probably fungal dominance. Finally, get your soils tested for its microbiology; this is the best way to know what is missing, if anything. Sure, an NPK test won't hurt, but it is really the biology you need to know about. 


*No One Ever Fertilized an Old Growth Forest*

Does the soil food web really support plants? Will it work in your yard and gardens? Just to give you confidence and to encourage you to use what you have learned, we point you in the direction of the nearest forest. Or simply close your eyes and visualize any wooded area you remember visiting. You can almost hear a stream nearby, the wind running through the leaves. It is beautiful, majestic----and no one ever fertilized any of the plants there. Not one single time. How can this be??? You know the answer. The beautiful plants in these beautiful areas are completely controlled by the soil food webs in which they live. 
It often comes as a surprise when gardeners so reflect. Only then does the full force of the realization hit: every single plant you are seeing produces exudates and attracts microbiology to its rhizosphere. This community in turn attracts micro- and macro arthropods, worms, mollusks, and the rest of a complete soil food web. It is a natural system, and it operates just fine without interference from man-made fertilizers, herbicides, and pesticides. Tall oaks grow from small acorns with no blue powders to feed them or nasty smelling sprays to protect them. Plants flourish nonetheless, thanks to bacteria, fungi, protozoa, nematodes, and the rest of the soil food web gang. 
You have been introduced to the basic science of soil food webs. You know how the system works, and you have been exposed to its benefits. With microbiology returned to your garden, soil structure improves. Mycorrhizal fungi will help your lawn, trees, shrubs, perennials, annuals, and veggies get the nutrients they need. Pathogens face fierce competition. Plants get more of the kind of nitrogen they prefer. Water drainage and retention are improved. Pollutants are decayed. Food tastes better. Flowers look better. Trees are less stressed. And you don't have to work so hard; you will have lots of helpers. Best of all, you won't have to worry about the affects of chemicals on you and your family, pets, or friends. 
Remember: no one ever fertilized an old growth forest. They didn't have to. You have been given the rules to garden using the soil food web. There are not many of them. What are you waiting for? Start teaming with microbes and get that biology into your soils and working for you. Gardening with the soil food web is the natural way to grow.


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## trichome fiend (Apr 27, 2011)

...also, here's a link sited from the book >>> http://www.soilfoodweb.com/sfi_approach1.html


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## dwrd (Apr 27, 2011)

Awesome information man! I just recently bought Bountea Brewer! Hope it does good for me.


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## dwrd (Apr 27, 2011)

I have a question Trichome Fiend. My brewer instructions say to apply 1/2 qt of compost and 1/4 cup of activator for a one gallon brew. I believe this is too much! I just wanted to know what quantities that book of yours recommends?


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## trichome fiend (Apr 27, 2011)

dwrd said:


> I have a question Trichome Fiend. My brewer instructions say to apply 1/2 qt of compost and 1/4 cup of activator for a one gallon brew. I believe this is too much! I just wanted to know what quantities that book of yours recommends?


...check this guy out, he explains his method with measurments...happy growin! 

[youtube]3WXBGonPAu0&feature[/youtube] [youtube]O25LugxZUFI&feature[/youtube] [youtube]FtbvlQBu7WY&feature[/youtube]


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## Drake S (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks for posting this up, I'm on my first organic grow and third round of brewing tea for this grow - learning a little bit each time! Appreciate it.


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## trichome fiend (Apr 28, 2011)

...just found the torrent download, read the book for free >>> http://extratorrent.com/torrent_download/1760489/Teaming+with+Microbes+-+A+Gardeners+Guide+to+the+Soil+Food+Web+%28organic%29.torrent ( <<< Be sure to click the right download tab @ lower page)


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## Dankster4Life (Apr 29, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...just found the torrent download, read the book for free >>> http://extratorrent.com/torrent_download/1760489/Teaming+with+Microbes+-+A+Gardeners+Guide+to+the+Soil+Food+Web+(organic).torrent ( <<< Be sure to click the right download tab @ lower page)


Thank you!!

I was lookin for a way to get it without getting it so to say.My puter fu is weak.

A ? for those that know.

Epsom salts.......can it go into a tea and if so does it benifit the tea itself?

Thanks


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## PakaloloHui (Apr 29, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...just found the torrent download, read the book for free >>> http://extratorrent.com/torrent_download/1760489/Teaming+with+Microbes+-+A+Gardeners+Guide+to+the+Soil+Food+Web+%28organic%29.torrent ( <<< Be sure to click the right download tab @ lower page)


Been reading the book all day, thanks...

You wouldn't have a link to this book on a torrent file would you???

*Compost Tea Making: For Organic Healthier Vegetables, Flowers, Orchards, Vineyards, Lawns*- Marc Remillard


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## trichome fiend (Apr 29, 2011)

Dankster4Life said:


> Thank you!!
> 
> I was lookin for a way to get it without getting it so to say.My puter fu is weak.
> 
> ...


...no salts, no preservatives, no chlorine... those are the rules, the salts will dehydrate the microbes and they die. 



PakaloloHui said:


> Been reading the book all day, thanks...
> 
> You wouldn't have a link to this book on a torrent file would you???
> 
> *Compost Tea Making: For Organic Healthier Vegetables, Flowers, Orchards, Vineyards, Lawns*- Marc Remillard


...no sorry man.


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## Dankster4Life (Apr 29, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...no salts, no preservatives, no chlorine... those are the rules, the salts will dehydrate the microbes and they die.


Thanks..........and is this no salts period into a tea or is it possible to add right before use,like we would do with myco?

Thanks again.


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## trichome fiend (Apr 29, 2011)

Dankster4Life said:


> Thanks..........and is this no salts period into a tea or is it possible to add right before use,like we would do with myco?
> 
> Thanks again.


...no salts into your tea, nor your soil. 
...as long as you have a healthy soil food web, your plants will need for nothing...and if you've started with a quality soil (such as Fox Farm's Ocean Forest, Roots Organics, Humboldt Happy Frog, exc...) then your off to a good start. When it comes time to replenish your soil, it all starts with the compost, the compost should be mostly bacterial for annuals such as MJ but fungi plays an important role, although you can alter which populates in your tea when brewing. What is your compost source? ...do you know what's in it?


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## trichome fiend (Apr 29, 2011)

[youtube]zUKeTz70GAY[/youtube] [youtube]bq1bTduTzC0&feature[/youtube]


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## mrduke (Apr 29, 2011)

are composts with added manures a good start for tea


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## trichome fiend (Apr 30, 2011)

mrduke said:


> are composts with added manures a good start for tea


...how's it going mrduke, great question. 

E. coli is something that could be a concern when using manures, why take the risk when you don't know what kinds of antibiotics or other drugs used to feed the animals...it's not a requirement. I'm in the belief that most people do this because of the manures N/P/K value. In the soil food web, NPK isn't a big concern, it's the bacteria and fungi populations that support and supply the whole chain of life. 

At the heart of every composting system are the microorganisms, the members of the compost's food web. They are the ones that make compost, no matter what method is employed. Their metabolic activity creates the heat and by-products that make the composting process work. Organic materials are easy to come by: grass clippings, autumn leaves, wood chips, straw, sawdust, branches, and vertually all kitchen scraps (except meats and fats). Mix these ingredients in the right proportions, and you will end up with a rich, crumbly, dark, coffee-colored, sweet-smelling humus-soil that also happens to be full of life....but, no matter what method is employed, it is the microbes that do most of the work. 

-----Often gardeners divide available composting materials into 2 categories, brown and green. Aged, brown organic materials support fungi, while fresh, green organic materials support bacteria (Rule #6).


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## Dankster4Life (Apr 30, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> What is your compost source? ...do you know what's in it?


Not that far into it yet.My compost tumbler is 3/4 built,gotta put it on posts and i'm done.hopefully within 6-7 weeks after fillin it up i'll be using my own compost.

Green and brown grass clippings,pecan tree leaves,dandelions,dead matter from the ole ladys flower beds,stinging nettle,kitchen scraps and some stuff i don't know names of will be my main source for the tumbler.

As of now most of my teas have been EWC,molasses,kelp meal,fish hydraslate(neptunes harvest)and a few other things here and there.


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## trichome fiend (Apr 30, 2011)

Dankster4Life said:


> Not that far into it yet.My compost tumbler is 3/4 built,gotta put it on posts and i'm done.hopefully within 6-7 weeks after fillin it up i'll be using my own compost.
> 
> Green and brown grass clippings,pecan tree leaves,dandelions,dead matter from the ole ladys flower beds,stinging nettle,kitchen scraps and some stuff i don't know names of will be my main source for the tumbler.
> 
> As of now most of my teas have been EWC,molasses,kelp meal,fish hydraslate(neptunes harvest)and a few other things here and there.


...sounds like your off to a good start. I'd go 50% green grass (keeping bacteria dominate), 25% brown leaf (needed fungi; carbon; helps buffer pH), 25% others....moisten and aerate the compost every 2 weeks, in 6 weeks your good to go! Check out this video, he keeps it simple.

[youtube]a-JqApyMaP4&feature[/youtube]


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## Dankster4Life (Apr 30, 2011)

I've beat ya to that vid bro!

I think i have watched just about 95%of them vids on the tube in the last 2 months.

It's the video you posted before this one that has me by the balls.I really want a scope but no funds for that now....soon i hope.


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## trichome fiend (Apr 30, 2011)

Dankster4Life said:


> It's the video you posted before this one that has me by the balls.I really want a scope but no funds for that now....soon i hope.


...yeah, I watched that video several times..... you can actually see'em movin!

....from what I remember, it would take like a 400x scope to see this...if I'm right.


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## Dankster4Life (Apr 30, 2011)

I believe ya can do with a 300x but not positive.

Don't know how to post links but this is a very good site......www.microbeorganics.com


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## trichome fiend (Apr 30, 2011)

Dankster4Life said:


> I believe ya can do with a 300x but not positive.
> 
> Don't know how to post links but this is a very good site......www.microbeorganics.com


.. the authors of "Teaming with Microbes" said in the bacteria, fungi chapters...that it's mostly lucky pupils of biology classes that get to utilize the high power scopes that's needed, idk, I'll scan through the book when I get the chance for the intensity needed...I'll let ya know.


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## soulglow (Apr 30, 2011)

hello trichome im on the same page here, started with fox farm(ocean forrest) and roots organic been reading more and more about it and started my first tea today, so 5 gallon clear water jug two air stones and i added a handful in a paint can strainer of EWC from a bag 1-0-0(making my worm box tomorrow)and 30ml of thrive-alive organic and barbados unsulphured molasses. is any of this not good to use??????
thank you 4 ur time


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## undark (May 1, 2011)

My ladies love the tea I brew for them..

For a 5 gallon brew:

Start with distilled, rain, or RO water. Chlorine/chloramine will kill the microlife.
1 cup bird or bat guano
1 tbl liquid seaweed
1 tsp unsulphured blackstrap molasses
then brew for 24 hours

next day i add
1 cup earthworm castings
1/2 cup all-purpose 5-5-5 (happy frog organic fert) 
1 tsp unsulphured blackstrap molasses
brew for another 24 hours

Foliar spray and soil drench. 

If you are making teas with EWC you should have all the fungi and bacteria you need.


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## trichome fiend (May 1, 2011)

soulglow said:


> hello trichome im on the same page here, started with fox farm(ocean forrest) and roots organic been reading more and more about it and started my first tea today, so 5 gallon clear water jug two air stones and i added a handful in a paint can strainer of EWC from a bag 1-0-0(making my worm box tomorrow)and 30ml of thrive-alive organic and barbados unsulphured molasses. is any of this not good to use??????
> thank you 4 ur time


...sounds like your off to a good start bro! ...I think you'll do great with what you've listed.


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## mrduke (May 1, 2011)

where do you'll get your EWC I spent like 2 hours yesterday going to all the box stores and a few local garden shops? do they have 'em at most hydro stores?


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## Dankster4Life (May 1, 2011)

Yes you should find them at the hydro shops.usually around $7-8 for a 5 pd sac up to like $40 for a 40 pd sac.Give or take here and there on the prices.

Have you given worm farms any thought?


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## mrduke (May 1, 2011)

yeah i thought about a farm but that just one more thing to deal with, and for 5-10 buck that will last a month or two it seems like to much hassle


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## Dankster4Life (May 1, 2011)

Check youtube bro.....you'll see there isn't really any hassle at all.Get it established and you get FREE fresh castings.And notice i said FRESH.When i started usin castings i didn't use a bunch either.....but it didn't take long to see and i was usin more of it.Running out of castings for me is like runnin outa gs in da desert!,it sucks and i'm PISSED!


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## soulglow (May 1, 2011)

mrduke said:


> where do you'll get your EWC I spent like 2 hours yesterday going to all the box stores and a few local garden shops? do they have 'em at most hydro stores?


 dude make ur own thats what im going to start doing in a worm box because the EWC you may get at a store may be really dry, i was lucky the hydro shop by the house has really fresh(at least moist) EWC but im trying to cut costs and not buy it. it takes like 4 to 6 weeks for your worm box to make useable EWC. here is a link to a vid that uses two plastic tubes so you cant of water because all the excesses water runs out the hole drilled in the bottom http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxhEQEA0GN8, and get the worms out of the back yard. 

This is for fiend, how many worms should i start with in a 28g roughneck bin????


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## trichome fiend (May 1, 2011)

soulglow said:


> This is for fiend, how many worms should i start with in a 28g roughneck bin????


Vermicomposting >>> http://lancaster.unl.edu/pest/resources/vermicompost107.shtml


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## PakaloloHui (May 1, 2011)

After reading the entire book that you have linked for us, what boggles my mind is, How does Advanced Nutrients Organic Products work so well with their non-Organic products or is it just their marketing scheme. I watch video's on yoyube all day long and see guys using their line-up and getting massive results. After reading the book, wouldn't sensizyme, nirvana, tarantula, piranha, voodoo juice,, and other organic microbe products be completely useless and killed off when mixed with their base nutes of Grow, Micro, Bloom, Sensi Grow/Bloom A & B, Connoisseur, and or would the Organic products also be wiped out from their Big Bud, Overdrive, B-52, Carbolaods, Bud Candy, Bud Ignitor, Bud Factor X, or any other salted nute addative???

I am just using them for an example because that is what I see on the tube and that is what they use and get huge yields, frosty, tasty smelling meds.

I personally am just curious about this. Tea's, compost, guano's, microbes all the way, but is it really working together for them, or is the salts killing their good organic microbes and enzymes, that seem to help them to get big roots, too???


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## trichome fiend (May 2, 2011)

....from what I understand, if the "organics" are in a bottle, the microorganisms are anaerobic....or mostly dead. Compost tea provides you with aerobic microbes, alive...microbes support the soil food web....this may sounds vague, but if you read the whole book here, you should understand... it was explained.


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## Wolverine97 (May 2, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ....from what I understand, if the "organics" are in a bottle, the microorganisms are anarobic....or dead. Compost tea provides you with arobic microbes, alive...microbes support the soil food web....this may sounds vague, but if you read the whole book here, you should understand... it was explained.


I'm not trying to be a dick, but you should get your terminology straight before talking like you know these things.


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## PakaloloHui (May 2, 2011)

I do understand the whole book, but if you add all AN good microbes and then their salty ones they should DIE according to the book, or any other info. out their saying mixing A Non-Organic Nitrogen solution (Nitrate Based) to your plants that you were feeding VOODOO, TARANTULA, PIRANHA, NIRVANA, SENZIZYME, which are all your bacteria, fungi, mychro's, trich's, enzymes and so forth that you tried so hard to Populate???

That was what I don't get is the shit works when used in AN full lineup using both Organic and Non solutions, from what I have been watching. Remember AN is just a example. 

Maybe wolverine could answer this or I think I will also forward this to Heisenburg's thread: Brewing your own beneficials or something close to this.


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## elduece (May 2, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ....from what I understand, if the "organics" are in a bottle, the microorganisms are anarobic....or dead. Compost tea provides you with arobic microbes, alive...microbes support the soil food web....this may sounds vague, but if you read the whole book here, you should understand... it was explained.


oh nevermind


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## soulglow (May 2, 2011)

PakaloloHui said:


> After reading the entire book that you have linked for us, what boggles my mind is, How does Advanced Nutrients Organic Products work so well with their non-Organic products or is it just their marketing scheme. I watch video's on yoyube all day long and see guys using their line-up and getting massive results. After reading the book, wouldn't sensizyme, nirvana, tarantula, piranha, voodoo juice,, and other organic microbe products be completely useless and killed off when mixed with their base nutes of Grow, Micro, Bloom, Sensi Grow/Bloom A & B, Connoisseur, and or would the Organic products also be wiped out from their Big Bud, Overdrive, B-52, Carbolaods, Bud Candy, Bud Ignitor, Bud Factor X, or any other salted nute addative???
> 
> I am just using them for an example because that is what I see on the tube and that is what they use and get huge yields, frosty, tasty smelling meds.
> 
> I personally am just curious about this. Tea's, compost, guano's, microbes all the way, but is it really working together for them, or is the salts killing their good organic microbes and enzymes, that seem to help them to get big roots, too???


 it does kill some of them but all of them, i had problems with AN and AN says to change resi every week and adding carbo load every few days to keep the fungi and bacteria alive. my problem was i did not have enuf money to keep on buying AN's line.


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## trichome fiend (May 2, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I'm not trying to be a dick, but you should get your terminology straight before talking like you know these things.


...would you like to enlighten me on your commet here? ...or did you just want to say your opinion, or you have facts? ...not being a dick, but can you prove otherwise?.....or was you try'n to be da grammer police?

...life diminishes rapidly without oxygen, true?


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## trichome fiend (May 2, 2011)

elduece said:


> oh nevermind


......................................


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## PakaloloHui (May 3, 2011)

Heisenburg has also confirmed that some of the bennies would be killed off but not all, thanks soul glow. I plan on using all organic tea's I was just wanting to learn more about the do's and dont's, what you can and can't do, what to add and not add. 

So what I learned from my question is that these guys are getting great results mostly from the synthetics and they are still getting help from their Organic microbial, bacterial, fungal, enzymatic products as well eventhough some are killed off when used.

So maybe adding a little additive here and there to your blooming fruits would not then kill off all the good Bennies that we worked so hard to feed and grow from using compost's, tea's, guano's, wormcastings, and other organic material foods and additives.
With these synthetic additives that if used would be the cause of their yields but then maybe sacrificing a little natural taste and flavor, yet giving a nice taste and flavor, but not as smooth.

So basically I will stay away from their products and if maybe if affordable one day try to get some of their 100% Organic microbes to add to some tea's or watering if mine aren't up to par. I will never add any type of synthetic, ever.

Thanks for the discussiona and the answers


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## trichome fiend (May 3, 2011)

PakaloloHui said:


> Heisenburg has also confirmed that some of the bennies would be killed off but not all, thanks soul glow. I plan on using all organic tea's I was just wanting to learn more about the do's and dont's, what you can and can't do, what to add and not add.
> 
> So what I learned from my question is that these guys are getting great results mostly from the synthetics and they are still getting help from their Organic microbial, bacterial, fungal, enzymatic products as well eventhough some are killed off when used.
> 
> ...


...awesome man....exactly why I started this thread (+rep), hopefully someone besides the grammer police will show to share their thoughts on the subject as well.


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## trichome fiend (May 3, 2011)

...here's something for ya PakaloloHui.


*Air or no air*



* There are two main groups of bacteria. The first, anaerobic bacteria are able to live in the absence of oxygen; indeed, mostcannot live in its presence. The bacterial Clostridium, for example, does not need oxygen to survive and can invade and destroy the inside soft tissue of decaying matter. By-products of anaerobic decay include hydrogen sulfide (think rotten eggs), butyric acid (think vomit), ammonia, and vinegar. The notorious Escherichia coli (E.coli) and other bacteria normally found in the mammalian gastrointestinal tract meaning they can live in aerobic conditions if they must but prefer anaerobic environments.*

* Most gardeners have smelled by-products of anaerobic decomposition, perhaps ingarden but certainly in the refrigerator. These are smells to remember when composting and gardening with soil foodweb because anaerobic conditions foster pathogenic bacteria and, worse, killoff beneficial aerobic bacteria, the other major group of bacteria: those that require air.*

* While some facultative aerobic bacteria are able to live in anaerobic conditions if they must, most cannot. Aerobic bacteria are not normally known to cause bad smells. In fact, the actinomycetes (of order Actinomycetales, specifically thebacterial genus Streptomyces) produce enzymes that include volatile chemicals that give soil its clean, fresh, earthy aroma. Anyone who has gardened recognizes this smell, the smell of &#8220;good soil.&#8221;*

* Actinomhyctesare different from other soil bacteria: they actually grow filaments, almost like fungal hyphae. Some scientists believe Streptomyces species use their branching filaments to connect soil particles so they, along with the soil particles, become too big to be eaten by their natural predators, the protozoan ciliates, which would engulf and ingest them. Actinomycetes are particularly adept at decaying cellulose and chitin---two difficult &#8211;to- digest (&#8220;brown&#8221 carbon compounds, the former found in plant wall cells and latter in fungal cell walls and in arthropod shells. These are not normal foods of other bacteria. Actinomycetesare also adapted to live in a wider range of pH than other bacteria, from acidic to alkaline.*


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## trichome fiend (May 4, 2011)

*What Is the Soil Food Web and Why Should Gardeners Care?*



 Given its vital importance to our hobby, it is amazing that most of us don&#8217;t venture beyond the understanding that good soil supports plant life, and port soil doesn&#8217;t. You&#8217;ve undoubtedly seen worms in good soil,and unless you habitually use pesticides, you should have come across othersoil life: centipedes, springtails,ants, slugs, ladybird beetle larvae, and more. Most of this life is on the surface, in the first 4 inches (10centimeters); come soil microbes have even been discovered living comfortablyan incredible two miles beneath thesurface. Good soil, however, is not justa few animals. Good soil is absolutely teeming with life, yet seldom does the realization that this is so engender a reaction of satisfaction. 

 In addition to all the living organisms you can see in garden soils (for example, there are upto 50 earthworms in a square foot [0.09 square meters] of good soil); there is a whole world of soil organisms that you cannot see unless you use sophisticated and expensive optics. Only then do the tiny,microscopic organisms----bacteria, fungi, protozoa, nematodes----appear, and in numbers that are nothing less than staggering. A mere teaspoon of good garden soil, as measured by microbial geneticists, contains a billion invisiblebacteria, several yards of equally invisible fungal hyphae, several thousand protozoa, and a few dozen nematodes. 

 The common denominator of all soil life is the every organism needs energy to survive. While a few bacteria, known as chemo synthesizers, derive energy from sulfur, nitrogen, or even iron compounds, the rest have to eat something containing carbon in order to get the energy they need to sustain life. Carbon may come from organic material supplied by plants, waste products produced by other organisms, or the bodies of other organisms. The first order of business of all soil life is obtaining carbon to fuel metabolism----it is an eat-and-be-eaten world, in and on soil. 

 Do you remember the children&#8217;s song about an old lady who accidentally swallowed a fly? She then swallows a spider (that wriggled and jiggled and tickled insideher) to catch the fly, and then a bird to catch the spider, and so on, until she eats a horse and dies (of course!). If you made a diagram of who was expected to eat whom, starting with the fly and ending with the improbable horse, you would have what is known as a food chain.

 Most organisms eat more than one kind of prey, so if you make a diagram of who eats whom in and on the soil, the straight-line food chain instead becomes a series of food chains linked and cross-linked to each other, creation a web of foodchains, or a soil food web. Each soil environment has a different set of organisms and thus a different soil foodweb.

 This is the simple, graphical definition of a soil food web, though as you can imagine, this and other diagrams represent complex and highly organized sets of interactions, relationships, and chemical and physical processes. The story each tells, however, is a simple one and always starts with the plant. 



*Plants are in control *



 Most gardeners think of plants as only taking up nutrients through root systems and feeding the leaves. Few realize that a great deal of energy that results from photosynthesis in the leaves is actually used by plants to produce chemicals they secrete through their roots. These secretions are known as exudates. A good analogy is perspiration, a human&#8217;s exudates.

 Root exudates are in the form of carbohydrates (including sugars) and proteins. Amazingly, their presence wakes up, attracts, and grows specific beneficial bacteria and fungi living in the soil that subsist on these exudates and the cellular material sloughed off as the plant&#8217;s root tips grow. All this secretion of exudates and sloughing &#8211; off of cells takes place inthe rhizosphere, a zone immediately around the roots, extending out about a tenth of an inch, or a couple of millimeters. The rhizosphere, which can look like a jelly or jam under the electron microscope, contains a constantly changing mix of soil organisms,including bacteria, fungi, nematodes, protozoa, and even larger organisms. All this &#8220;life&#8221; competes for the exudates inthe rhizosphere, or its water or mineral content. 

 At the bottom of the soil food web are bacteria and fungi, which are attracted to and consume plant root exudates. In turn, they attract and are eaten by bigger microbes, specifically nematodes and protozoa (remember the amoebae,paramecia, flagellates, and ciliates you should have studied in biology?), who eat bacteria and fungi (primarily for carbon) to fuel their metabolic functions. Anything they don&#8217;t need is excreted as wastes, which plant roots are readily able to absorb asnutrients. How convenient that this production of plant nutrients takes place right in the rhizosphere, the site of root-nutrient absorption.

 At the center of any viable soil food web areplants. Plants control the food web for their own benefit, an amazing fact that is too little understood and surely not appreciated by gardeners who are constantly interfering with Nature&#8217;ssystem. Studies indicate that individual plants can control the numbers and the different kinds of fungi and bacteria attracted to the rhizosphere by the exudates they produce. During different times of the growing season,populations of rhizosphere bacteria and fungi wax and wane, depending on the nutrient needs of the plant and the exudates it produces.

 Soil bacteria and fungi are like small bags of fertilizer, retaining in their bodies nitrogen and other nutrients they gain from root exudates and other organic matter (such as those sloughed-off root-tip cells). Carrying on the analogy, soil protozoa and nematodes act as &#8220;fertilizer spreaders&#8221; by releasing the nutrients locked up in the bacteria and fungi &#8220;fertilizer bags.&#8221; The nematodes and protozoa in the soil come along and eat the bacteria and fungi in the rhizosphere. They digest what they need to survive and excrete excess carbon and other nutrients as waste. 

 Left to their own devices, then, plants produce exudates that attract fungi and bacteria (and, ultimately, nematodes and protozoa); their survival depends on the interplay between these microbes. It is a completely natural system, the very same one that has fueled plants since they evolved. Soil life provides the nutrients needed for plant life, and plants initiate and fuel the cycle by producing exudates.


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## trichome fiend (May 4, 2011)

*Cation exchange capacity*



 All tiny particles, not just humus, carryelectrical charges. These particles arecalled ions. Ions with a positive (+)charge are called cations and negatively charged (-) ones, anions. Positively charged particles are electricallyattached to negatively charged particles. This is exactly what happens when opposite ends of magnets attract eachother. When a positively changed cationattaches itself to a negatively charged anion, the cation is &#8220;absorbed&#8221; by theanion. Even microorganisms in the soilare small enough to carry and be influenced by electrical charges. 

 Sand particles are too large to carryelectrical charges, but both clay and humus particles are small enough to havelots of negatively charged anions that attract positively charged cations. The cations that are absorbed by clay andhumus include calcium (Ca++), potassium (K+), sodium (Na+), magnesium (Mg++),iron (Fe+), ammonium (NH4+), and hydrogen (H+). These are all major plant nutrients, and they are held in the soil bytwo components of good soil. Theattraction of these cations to the clay and humus particles is so strong thatwhen a solution containing them comes into contact, the attraction is satiatedand only about 1% of the cation nutrients remains in solution. 

 There are anions in soil as well. These include chloride (Cl-), nitrate (NO3-),sulfate (SO4-), and phosphate (PO4-) ----all plant nutrients. Unfortunately, soil anions are repelled bythe negative charge on clay and humus particles and therefore stay in solutioninstead of being absorbed. These plantnutrients are often missing from garden soils, as they are easily leached awayin the soil solution when it rains or soil is watered: nothing is holding themon to soil surfaces. 

 Why does this matter? The surfaces of root hairs have their ownelectrical charges. When a root hairenters the soil, it can exchange its own cations for those attached to clay orhumus particles and then absorb the cation nutrient involved. Roots use hydrogen cations (H+) as theirexchange currency, giving up one hydrogen cation for every cation nutrientabsorbed. This keeps the balance ofcharges equal. This is how plants &#8220;eat.&#8221;

 The place where the exchange of a cationoccurs is known as a cation exchange site, and the number of these exchangesites measures the capacity of the soil to hold nutrients, or the cationexchange capacity (CEC). A soil&#8217;s CEC issimply the sum of positively changed nutrient replacements that it can absorbper unit weight or volume. CEC ismeasured in milligram equivalents per 100 grams (meq/100g). What the gardener needs to know is that thehigher the CEC number, the more nutrients a soil can hold and therefore, thebetter it is for growing plants. Thehigher the CEC, the more fertile the soil. You can order a CEC test to be run by a professional soil lab. 

 The CEC of soil depends, in part, on itstexture. Sand and silt have low CECsbecause these particles are too big to be influenced by an electrical changeand hold nutrients. Clay and organicparticles impart a high CEC to soils because they do carry lots of electricalcharges: the more humus and, to a point, clay present in soils, the morenutrients can be stored in the soil, which is why gardeners seek more organicin their soils.

 There are limits to a good thing. Don&#8217;t forget that clay particles areextremely small; too much clay and too little humus results in a high CEC butlittle air in the soil, because the pore space is too small and cut off by theclay&#8217;s platy structure. Such soil hasgood CEC alone; you have to know the soil texture and mixture.


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## trichome fiend (May 4, 2011)

*Soil pH *



Most ofus have a basic understanding of pH as a way to measure liquids to see if theyare acid or not. On a scale of 1 to 14,a pH of 1 is very acidic and a pH of 14 is very alkaline (or basic), theopposite of acidic. The pH tells theconcentration of hydrogen ions (H+, a cation) in the solution beingmeasured. If you have relatively fewhydrogen ions compared to the rest of what is in solution, the pH is high andthe solution is alkaline. Similarly, ifyou have a lot of hydrogen ions in solution, then you have a solution with alow pH that is acidic. 

 As a gardener, you (fortunately) don&#8217;t needto know much more about pH. You do needto understand, however, that every time a plant root tips exchanges a hydrogencation for a nutrient cation, the concentration of hydrogen ions in thesolution increases. As the concentrationof H+ goes up, the pH goes down---the soil is increasingly acidic. Things usually balance out, however, becauseroot surfaces also take up negatively charged anions, using hydroxyl (OH-) anions as themedium of exchange. Adding OH- to the solution raisesthe pH because it lowers the concentration of H+ ions. Fungi and bacteria are small enough to havecations and anions on their surfaces, electrically holding or releasing themineral nutrients they take in from decomposition in the soil. This, too, has an impact on the pH of thesoil.

 Why is pH a consideration when we talk aboutthe soil food web? The pH created bynutrient-ion exchanges influences what types of microorganisms live in thesoil. This can either encourage ordiscourage nitrification and other biological activities that affect how plantsgrow. As important, each plant has anoptimum soil pH. This has more to dowith the need of certain fungi and bacteria important to those plants to thrivein a certain pH than it does with the chemistry of pH.

 Knowing your soil&#8217;s pH is useful indetermining what you want to put into your soil, if anything, to supportspecific types of soil food webs. Andknowing the pH in the rhizosphere helps determine if any adjustments should bemade to help plant growth.


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## trichome fiend (May 6, 2011)

*Bacteria*



Bacteriaare everywhere. Few gardeners appreciatethat they are crucial to the lives of plants, and fewer still have ever takenthem into consideration. Yet no otherorganism has more members in the soil, not even close. In part, this is because these single-celledorganisms are so minuscule that anywhere from 250,000 to 500,000 of them canfit inside the period at the end of this sentence. 

 Bacteria were the earliest form of life onearth, appearing at least 3 billion years ago. They are prokaryotes: their DNA is contained in a single chromosome thatis not enclosed in a nucleus. Theirsize, or more precisely their lack thereof, must be the main reason ourfamiliarity with bacteria is usually limited to the diseases they cause and theneed to wash our hands before eating. Most baby boomers used a standard-issue 1000 power microscope to studymicroorganisms, but bacteria are too small to see in any detail at thispower. School microscopes have gottenbetter, and some lucky students now do get a closer look, literally, atbacteria. The three basic shapes, allrepresented in the soil, are coccus (spherical or oval), bacillus (rod-shaped),and spiral. 

 Bacteria reproduce, for the most part, bysingle cell division; that is, one cell divides and makes two cells, they eachdivide again, and so forth. Amazingly,under laboratory conditions, one solitary bacterium can produce in the vicinityof 5 billion offspring in a mere 12 hours if they have enough food. If all bacteria reproduced at this rate allthe time, it would take only a month or so to double the mass of ourplanet. Fortunately, soil bacteria arelimited by natural conditions, predators (protozoa chief among them), and aslower reproductive rate than their laboratory cousins; for example, bacteriamust have some form of moisture for the uptake of nutrients and release ofwaste. In most cases, moisture is also requiredfor bacteria to move about and to transport the enzymes they use to break downorganic matter. When soils become toodry, many soil bacteria go dormant. Bacteria, incidentally, rarely die of old age, but are usually eaten bysomething else or killed by environmental changes and then consumed by otherdecomposers, often other bacteria. 



_Primary decomposers_



Despitetheir tiny size, bacteria are among the earth&#8217;s primary decomposers of organicmatter, second only to fungi. Withoutthem, we would be smothered in our own wastes in a matter of months. Bacteria decompose plant and animals materialin order to ingest nitrogen, carbon compounds, and other nutrients. These nutrients are then held immobilizedinside the bacteria; they are released (mineralized) only when the bacteria areconsumed or otherwise die and are themselves decayed. 

 Different kinds of soil bacteria survive ondifferent food sources, depending on what is available and where they arelocated. Most, however, do bestdecomposing young, still-fresh plant material, which composters call greenmaterial. Green material contains lotsof sugars, which are easier for bacteria to digest than the more complex carboncompounds of other plant material. Composters call this brown material, anduntil it is broken down into smaller carbon chains, other members of the soilfood web more readily digest this than do bacteria. 

 Given their diminutive size, bacteria mustingest what are necessarily even more tiny pieces of organic matter. How do they do this? The short answer is they take in fooddirectly through their cell walls, which are composed, in part, of proteinsthat assist in this molecular transport. On the inside of bacterium&#8217;s cell wall is a mixture of sugars, proteins,carbons, and ions---a rich soup that is out of equilibrium with the lessconcentrated mixture outside the cell wall. Nature likes to try to keep things balanced; normally, water would flowfrom the dilute solution without into the more concentrated one within (a specialform of diffusion known as osmosis), but in the case of bacteria, cell wallsact as osmotic barriers. 

 Molecular transport across the cellularmembrane is accomplished in several ways. In the most important, active transport, the membrane proteins act asmolecular pumps and use energy to suck or push their target through the cellwall---nutrients in, waste products out. Different proteins in the membrane transport different kinds ofnutrients molecules. One way to imaginethis is to think of an old-fashioned fire bucket brigade, in which the waterwas passed from its source to the fire: these proteins pass &#8220;buckets&#8221; ofnutrients into the cell.

 Active transport is a fascinating butcomplicated process fueled by electrons located on both sides of the membranesurface. The gardener should certainlybe aware of and appreciate how bacteria feed but only needs to understand thatbacteria break up organic matter into small, electrically charged pieces andthen transport these through their cellular membranes, ready for use. Once inside the bacteria, the nutrients arelocked up.

 Other members of the soil food web obtaintheir energy and nutrients by eating bacteria. If there aren&#8217;t sufficient numbers of bacteria in the soil, populationsof these members of the soil food web suffer. Bacteria are part of the base of the soil food web food pyramid. 



_Feeding bacteria _



Rootexudates are favorite foods for certain soil bacteria, and as a result, hugepopulations of them concentrate in the rhizosphere, where bacteria also findnutrition from the cells sloughed off during root &#8211; tip growth. But not all soil bacteria live in the rhizosphere,for fortunately, organic matter is almost as ubiquitous as bacteria. All organic matter is made up of large, complexmolecules, many of which consist of chains of smaller molecules in repetitivepatterns that usually contain carbon. Bacteria are able to break the bonds along certain points of thesechains, creation smaller chains of simple sugars and fatty and aminoacids. These three groups provide thebasic building blocks bacteria need to sustain themselves. 

 Bacteria use enzymes both to break the bondsholding organic chains together and to digest their food. All this is done outside the organism beforeingestion. Untold numbers of enzymes areemployed by bacteria, who have adapted over the millennia to attack all mannerof organic and even inorganic matter. Itis an astonishing feat that bacteria can employ enzymes to break down organicmatter, while at the same time not impacting their own cell membrane. 



_Air or no air_



 There are two main groups of bacteria. The first, anaerobic bacteria are able tolive in the absence of oxygen; indeed, most cannot live in its presence. The bacterial Clostridium, for example, doesnot need oxygen to survive and can invade and destroy the inside soft tissue ofdecaying matter. By-products ofanaerobic decay include hydrogen sulfide (think rotten eggs), butyric acid(think vomit), ammonia, and vinegar. Thenotorious Escherichia coli (E.coli) and other bacteria normally found in themammalian gastrointestinal tract meaning they can live in aerobic conditions ifthey must but prefer anaerobic environments.

 Most gardeners have smelled by-products ofanaerobic decomposition, perhaps in garden but certainly in therefrigerator. These are smells toremember when composting and gardening with soil food web because anaerobicconditions foster pathogenic bacteria and, worse, kill off beneficial aerobicbacteria, the other major group of bacteria: those that require air.

 While some facultative aerobic bacteria areable to live in anaerobic conditions if they must, most cannot. Aerobic bacteria are not normally known tocause bad smells. In fact, theactinomycetes (of order Actinomycetales, specifically the bacterial genus Streptomyces)produce enzymes that include volatile chemicals that give soil its clean,fresh, earthy aroma. Anyone who hasgardened recognizes this smell, the smell of &#8220;good soil.&#8221;

 Actinomhyctes are different from other soilbacteria: they actually grow filaments, almost like fungal hyphae. Some scientists believe Streptomyces speciesuse their branching filaments to connect soil particles so they, along with thesoil particles, become too big to be eaten by their natural predators, theprotozoan ciliates, which would engulf and ingest them. Actinomycetes are particularly adept atdecaying cellulose and chitin---two difficult &#8211;to- digest (&#8220;brown&#8221 carboncompounds, the former found in plant wall cells and latter in fungal cell wallsand in arthropod shells. These are notnormal foods of other bacteria. Actinomycetes are also adapted to live in a wider range of pH than otherbacteria, from acidic to alkaline.



_Decay of cellulose _



 Cellulose, a complex carbohydrate made up oflong chains of carbon-based glucose, is the molecular material that givesplants structure. It constitutes halfthe mass of plant bodies, and hence half the mass of organic matter created byplants. Specialized bacteria, like theaptly named _Cellulomonas, _carrycellulose-breaking enzymes that they release only when they come into contactwith cellulose, as opposed to the random release of enzymes by other bacteria thateat in a hit-and-miss manner. 

 Most bacteria reach their limit when it comesto the noncarbohydrate lignin, another prevalent, molecularly complex plantmaterial. Lignin, the tough browncomponent of barks and woody material, is much more complex organic moleculethan cellulose, made up of chains of interlinked alcohols; these are resistantto the enzymes produced by most bacteria and are left for fungi to decay.



_Element cycling _ 



One wayof looking at decay is to view it as nature&#8217;s recycling system. Bacteria in the soil food web play a crucial rolein recycling three of the basic elements needed for life: carbon, sulfur, andnitrogen. For example, CO2 (carbondioxide) is a major by-product of aerobic bacterial metabolism. Carbon tied up in plant and animal biomass iscycled into CO2 gas during decay. Photosynthesis in higher plants converts the CO2 into organic compounds,which are eventually consumed and then recycled back to CO2.

 Similarly, sulfur is recycled. Sulfur-oxidizing bacteria use the element tomake plant-available, water-soluble sulfates. Liberated from organic materials by anaerobic bacteria,sulfur-containing compounds are produced by chemoautotrophs, bacteria that getenergy from the oxidation of sulfur. 

 The nitrogen cycle, propelled in part byspecialized bacteria, is one of the most important systems in the maintenanceof terrestrial life: living organisms produce the vital organic compounds, thebuilding blocks of life---amino and nucleic acids---using nitrogen. The strong bonds holding atmospheric nitrogenmolecules together make this nitrogen inert for all practicable purposes anduseless for plant needs. For plants tobe able to use nitrogen, it has to be &#8220;fixed&#8221; ---combined with either oxygen orhydrogen---producing ammonium (NH4+), nitrate (NO3-), or nitrite (NO2-)ions. This important process is callednitrogen fixation. 

 Certain bacteria convert nitrogen from theatmosphere into plant-available forms. The genera that accomplish this nitrogen-fixing feat are _Azotobacter, Azospirillum, Clostridium, _and_Rhizobium_. (Azotobacter, Azospirillum, and Clostridiumlive free in soil: Rhizobium species actually live in the root tissues ofcertain plants, particularly legumes, where they form visible nodules. 

 We don&#8217;t mean to suggest you need to memorizethe species of soil bacteria, but we do want you to focus on the fact thatnitrogen fixation as well as the recycling of carbon and sulfur requires theinterventions of living organisms. Theseare always taught as chemical processes, but they are really biological. Bacteria carry out these processes in thesoil, forming symbiotic relationships with specific plants or existingsymbiotically within organisms. Soundslike a case of the biology creating the chemistry to us. 

 Another part of the nitrogen cycle, the placeat which it &#8220;starts&#8221; in the soil, involves the decomposition of proteins intoammonium (NH4+). This ammonium usuallyfigures as part of the waste product produced by protozoa and nematodes aftereating bacteria and fungi. Next, specialnitrite bacteria (_Nitrosomonas_ spp.)convert the ammonium compounds into nitrites (NO2). A second type of bacteria, nitrate bacteria (_Nitrobacter _spp.), convert the nitritesinto nitrates (NO3-).

 Nitrifying bacteria do not generally likeacidic environments; their numbers (and hence the conversion of nitrogen intonitrates) therefore diminish when soil pH drops below 7. Bacterial slime happens to have a pH above 7. Thus, if there are enough bacteria in an area,the slime they produce keeps the pH in their vicinity above 7, andnitrification can occur. If not, theammonium first produced by organisms in the soil is not all converted tonitrate form. If the pH is 5 or lower,very little if any of the ammonium is converted. 

 Denitrifying bacteria convert nitrogen saltsback to N2, which escapes into the atmosphere. Obviously, denitrifying bacteria do not help the fertility of soil, butthey are essential in that they keep the nitrogen cycle moving. 



_Biofilms_



Bacterialslime, or biofilm, is a matrix of sugars, proteins, and DNA. The fact that bacterial slime is the soil isslightly alkaline not only influences the pH where it counts most, in therhizosphere, but also buffers the soil in the area, so the pH remainsrelatively constant. 

 Some bacteria use their film as a means oftransportation, literally squirting this substance as a means ofpropulsion. (Most bacteria, however,travel using an astonishing bit of natural nanotechnology---with the aid of oneor more whip structures, or flagella, that resemble and operate likepropellers.) Biofilms save bacteria fromdesiccation as the soil dries: soil bacteria often live inside sticky globs ofbiofilms, complete with an infrastructure of channels filled with water fortransport of nutrients and wastes. Biofilms can also be a defense against antibiotics produced by otherorganisms, including fellow bacteria. Bacteria colonies protected by slime are 1000 times more resistant thanindividual bacteria to antibiotics and microbicides. 



_Nutrient retention_ 



Bacteriaplay a major role in plant nutrition. They lock up nutrients that might otherwise disappear as a result ofleaching. They do so by ingesting themwhile decomposing organic matter and retaining them in their cellularstructures. Since the bacteria arethemselves attached to soil particles, the nutrients remain in the soil insteadof being washed away, as is the case with chemical fertilizers.

 Indeed, these nutrients will be tied up,immobilized inside the bacteria until the bacteria are eaten and reduced towastes. Since soil bacteria don&#8217;t travelvery far, and there is ample source of bacterial food in the root zone, thenutrients ingested by bacteria are kept in the vicinity of the roots. Other organisms, such as protozoa, play majorroles consuming bacteria, releasing excess nitrogen as ammonium (NH4+) in theirwastes, which are deposited in the rhizosphere, right where the roots canabsorb nutrients. 



_Other benefits of soil bacteria_



Someanaerobic bacteria produce alcohols that are toxic to plant life and to otherbacteria. These anaerobic bacteria canbed avoided when gardening by controlling the conditions that allow them tomultiply: poor soil texture, lack of pore space, standing water, and compactedsoil. Other bacteria are pathogens thatcause disease in higher plants. The listof pathogenic bacteria is a long one, including bacteria that cause citruscanker, diseases of potatoes, melons, cucumbers, and fire-blight of pears,apples, and the like. Thousands ofbacterial pathogens are in soil, and billions of dollars are spent every yearto protect crops from damage by the culprit bacteria. _Agrobacteriumtumefaciens _causes galls or tumors to grow on the stems of certainplants. _Burkholderia cepecia _is a bacterium that infects and rots the rootsof onions. Some _Pseudomonas _species cause leaf curl and black spot on tomatoes. 

 Despite the presence of pathogenic bacteria,there are more benefits to a healthy soil bacteria population than not. For example, bacterial activity is also oftenresponsible for breaking down pollutants and toxins. These processes are usually aerobic,requiring oxygen to occur. Youundoubtedly have heard of bacteria that can eat oil spilled on a beach in Alaska; there aresimilar bacteria that will eat gasoline spilled on your lawn, for example.

 Soil bacteria produce many of the medicinalantibiotics upon which we have come to depend. One can only speculate that since these bacteria have to compete notonly with other bacteria for nutrients but also with fungi and other organisms,they evolved protective capabilities. For example, _Pseudomonas _bacteriacan correct take-all, a disastrous fungal wheat disease, by producingphenazines, very strong, broad-spectrum antibiotics. Obviously, many soil bacteria keep pathogenicbacteria in check, a big benefit of a healthy soil food web.

 All bacteria compete with each other and withother organisms for the finite amount offood the soil offers and thus keep eachother&#8217;s populations in balance. Soilswith a high diversity of bacterial types are more likely to have a largernumber of nonpathogenic bacteria out competing pathogenic bacteria for spaceand nutrients. We are convinced thatusing the soil food web&#8217;s natural defenses is the best way to keep the bad guysin check. Gardeners need to appreciate thatbacteria are at the front line of defense.


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## trichome fiend (May 18, 2011)

*Fungi*

 Over 100,000 different kinds of fungi are known, and some authorities suggest a million more are out there waiting to be discovered. Say the word, however, and most gardeners immediately think of the familure white toadstools, bracket and coral fungi, and puffballs that appear in the lawn or on the bark of trees (or they know soil fungi from the diseases they cause). But except for the white threads and the spore-producing mushrooms, soil fungi are as invisible as bacteria, requiring a microscope of several hundred powers to be seen. Even the visible congregations of mycelia are usually hidden in the organic matter they are in the process of decaying. 
 Fungi, too, are underappreciated by gardeners, and yet they play a key role in the soil food web and are an important tool for those who garden using soil food web principles. It wasn't too long ago that they were considered plants without chlorophyll and unable to photosynthesize, and build their cell walls from chitin instead of cellulose, among other unique characteristics, they are now placed in their own kingdom in the domain Eukarya. 
 Fungi, like higher plants and animals, are eukaryotes: organisms that have cells with distinct, enclosed nuclei. Each cell can have more than one nucleus. Fungi usually grow from spores into thread-like structures called hyphae (singular, septum). The walls connecting hyphae growing in close enough proximity form visible threads, or mycelia (singular, mycelium), which you may have seen in decomposing leaf litter. Fungi reproduce in many different ways, not just by spores, but never by seeds, as the most advanced plants commonly do.
 A fungal hypha is considerably larger than a bacterium, the average length being 2 to 15 micrometers with a diameter of 0.2 to 3.5 micrometers---still so thin that it takes hundreds of thousands of individual hyphal strands to form a network thick enough for the human eye to see. A teaspoon of good garden soil may contain several yards of fungal hyphae, invisible to the naked eye, millions upon millions merge together to produce something as obvious as a king bolete or an intricate _Amanita muscaria _in all their fruiting glory. These and other mushrooms are simply the fruiting bodies of fungi. Consider the energy and nutrients required to produce them. 
 One major advantage fungi have over bacteria, and perhaps the reason they were misclassified for so long as plants, is the ability of fungal hyphae to grow in length. Unlike bacterial cells, whose world is a very finite one, fungal hyphae can travel over space measured in feet or meters, distances that for a bacterium are truly epic. And unlike bacteria, fungi do not need a film of water in order to spread through the soil. Fungal hyphae are thus able to bridge gaps and go short distances, which allows them to locate new food sources and transport nutrients from one location to another, relatively far away from its origin. 
 The ability to transport nutrients is another key difference between fungi and bacteria. Fungal hyphae contain cytoplasm, a liquid circulated throughout the septa in their cells. When a hyphal tip invades a nematode, for example, it drains its hapless victim of its nutrients and distributes them in the hyphal cytoplasm and from there though the main body of fungus. Nutrients are thus transferred from the tip of the fungal hypha to a wholly new location that can be several yards away (think conveyor belt). Once inside the fungus, the nutrients are immobilized and will not be lost from the soil. 
 Fungi produce special structures---for example, mushrooms above ground or truffles below---to disperse spores. Since fungi grow in all sorts of environments, they have devised some elaborate methods to achieve spore dispersal, including attractive scents, triggers, springs, and jet propulsion systems. To ensure survival, fungal spores can develop tough membranes that allow them to go dormant for years if the conditions are not right for immediate germination. 
 As with bacteria, fungi occur universally; some species even exist in the frozen region of Antarctica. Airborne dispersal of spores helps explain why visitors from, say, Alaska, will recognize species of fungi growing in far-off Australia. While dormant spores can be found around the world, they need the right conditions to germinate and grow. Thus, fungal spores may be found continents away from their source, but they may not be functional because the conditions for growth are not right. 

_Fungal growth and decay_

 While some fungi prefer the "softer," easier-to-digest sugars characteristic of the foods that feed bacteria, most go for tougher-to-digest foods (mainly because bacteria are better and faster at grabbing and taking up simple sugars). Fungi, however, win in the competition for more complex foods: they produce phenol oxidase, a strong enzyme that dissolves even lignin, the woody compound that binds and protects cellulose. Another characteristic of fungi is their ability to penetrate hard surfaces. Fungi have perfected apical growth--- that is, growth at their hyphal tip. Apical or tip growth is an incredibly complex process, and engineering job akin to building a tunnel under a river and requiring great coordination of events. Even before electron microscopes, scientists identified a dark spot, the Spitzenkorper, in the tip of actively growing hyphae; when hyphal growth stopped, the Spitzenkorper disappeared. It seems this mysterious region has something to do with controlling or perhaps directing apical growth. 
 During apical growth, new cells are constantly being pushed into the tip and along the sidewalls, elongating the hyphal tube. Materials for the growth of fungal hyphae are supplied to the advancing tip by the cytoplasm, which transports vesicles loaded with all necessary "construction" supplies. Of course, it is important to keep extraneous material from flowing into the hypha as well as out while this growth is happening. All the while, powerful enzymes capable of dissolving all but the most recalcitrant carbon compounds are released as the new cells are put into place. Think about it: these enzymes are powerful enough to convert lignin, cellulose, and other tough organic matter into simple sugars and amino acids, yet they do not decay the chitin cell walls of the fungi. 
 Fungi can grow up to 40 micrometers a minute. Discount for the moment the speed, which is incredibly fast for such tiny organisms, and compare the distance covered to the movement of a typical soil bacterium, which may travel only 6 micrometers in its entire life. 
 As with the death of any organism in the soil, the death of fungi means the nutrients contained within them become available to other members of the soil food web. But when fungi die, their hyphae leave a subway system of microscopic tunnels, up to 10 micrometers in diameter, through which air and water can flow. These "tubes" are also important safety zones for bacteria trying to elude protozoa: protozoa are considerably bigger than the tunnels. 
 Fungi are _the_ primary decay agents in the soil food web. The enzymes they release allow fungi to penetrate not only the lignin and cellulose in plants (dead or alive) but also the hard, chitin shells of insects, the bones of animals, and ---as many gardeners have learned---even the protein of strong toenails and fingernails. Bacteria can hold their own, but they require simpler-to-digest foods, often the by-products of fungal decay, and often only after such food has been broken or opened up by fungi and others. Compared to fungi, bacteria are in the Minor Leagues of decaying ability.

_Fungal feeding_

 The acidic digestive substances produced by fungi and leaked out of their hyphal tips are similar to those utilized by humans; fungi don't require a stomach as a vessel in which to digest food, however, Like bacteria, fungi lack mouthparts; instead, fungal decay breaks up organic materials into compounds the fungus can then ingest through its cell walls via diffusion (osmosis) and active transport. Nutrients taken in by fungi are usually immobilized, just as they are when ingested by bacteria, and later released like bacteria, then, fungi should be viewed as living containers of fertilizer. 
 Excess acids, enzymes, and wastes are left behind as the fungus continues to grow and as a consequence, the digestion of organics continues even through the fungus has moved on, opening up organic material for bacterial decay and making nutrients available to plants and others in the soil community. Hyphal growth gives a fungus the ability to move relatively long distances to food sources instead of waiting for its food to come close (through it can clearly do this, too, as the nematode-trapping fungus proves). Fungi can, for example, extend up into the leaf litter on the surface of the soil, decay leaves, and then bring the nutrients back down into the root zone---a huge advantage over bacteria, the other primary nutrient recycler in the soil food web. 
 Soil fungi are usually branched and quite capable of gathering organic compounds from different sources simultaneously. Once the nutrient material is inside the cellular membrane, it is transported back through the network of fungal hyphae that often ends at the root of a plant, where some fungi trade for exudates. Thus the same fungus can extend hyphae downward and outward, absorbing several crucial nutrients---phosphorus, copper, zinc, iron, nitrogen---as well as water. In the case of phosphorus, for example, the propensity of fungi to gather and transport it over distances is truly remarkable. This mineral is almost always chemically locked up in soil: even when it is applied as fertilizer, phosphorus becomes unavailable to plants within seconds. Not only do fungi seek out this necessary plant nutrient, but they have the ability to free it from its chemical and physical bonds. Then they transport their quarry back to plant roots, where the phosphorus is absorbed and utilized.
 Don't forget that in those instances where a fungus brings food back to a plant root tip, it was attracted to that plant by the plant's exudates. Fungi are good, but the plant is in control. 

_Fungi and plant-available nitrogen_

 Some fungi trade nutrients for exudates, but most often nutrients are released as waste after they are consumed by fungi or when the fungi die and are decayed. Much of what is released is nitrogen. A key tenet of gardening with the soil food web is that plants can take up nitrogen in two forms, either as ammonium ions (NH4+) or as nitrate ions (NO3-). The nitrogen released by fungi is in ammonimum form (NH4+). If nitrifying bacteria are present, this is converted in two steps to nitrate (NO3-).
 The enzymes produced by fungi are decidedly acidic and lower the pH. Remember that bacterial slime raises soil pH; nitrogen-fixing bacteria generally require a pH above 7. As soils become dominated by fungi, the populations of nitrogen-fixing bacteria require to convert ammonium into nitrates diminish because the pH is lowered by the acids the fungi produce. More ammonium therefore remains as plant-available ammonium instead of being converted to nitrates. This has an important implication to gardening with the soil food web: fungally dominated soils tend to have nitrogen in ammonium form. This is great if you are a plant that prefers ammonium to nitrate, but not so good if you prefer to have your ammonium converted to nitrates. 

_Fungal adaptations_

 Fungi have developed all sorts of clever strategies to make it through life---our nematode-strangling fungus proves it. The fungus that developed this very artful and useful adaptation is _Artrobotrys dactyloides. _The ring that trapped the nematode is actually just a hyphal branch, twisted back on itself. These branches each consist of only three cells, which when touched, produce a signal to let water in; the cells then swell to three times their size and the unsuspecting victim is killed in a tenth of a second. Pretty amazing---a sophisticated trapping mechanism developed from an inverted branch using only three cells. Once again, nanotechnology can only hope to duplicate such as complicated process. Not only does the fungus figure out a way to kill nematodes, which are all blind, but it attracts them to its trap in the first instance. In this case, the fungus releases a chemical that attracts the worm. 
 Within a matter of only a few minutes after trapping, the tip of a fungal hypha enters the nematode's body, secretes its powerful enzymes, and starts absorbing nutrients. As this is exactly what the nematode has for the fungus. These nutrients, of course, are then locked up inside the fungus until the fungus is eaten by one of its predators or it trades them for exudates. Then the nutrients are mineralized and again are available to plants.
 The fungus _Pleurotus ostreatus, _the common oyster mushroom you can buy at the supermarket, uses another clever technique to trap food. It emits toxic drops from the tips of its hyphae; an unsuspecting nematode (our perennial fungal fall guy), out and about, looking for food, touches a drop with its mouth and within minutes is immobilized. A few hours later, and the fungus is inside the nematode, already digesting it. 
 This is not a bad way to ensure a meal: attract your food and either trap it or stun it and then consume it. Other mechanisms have evolved as well. Some fungi use adhesives to stick to nematodes. Other soil fungi trap protozoa and even springtails, much larger microarthropods that are big enough to see with the naked eye. Once attached, the fungi digest their prey and again lock up or immobilize plant nutrients. 
 What drives soil fungi in the direction of particular nutrients is still an open question. It is known that some send out filaments as if they were scouts looking for nutrients. If you have ever seen a well-trained bird dog look for a downed bird, you get the idea. The dog circles until its nose finds the bird. Some fungi clearly possess tactile-or contact-sensing capabilities that allow then to orient in a certain direction so they can invade their prey or other food source. Others demonstrate the ability to track specific chemicals they know to be in the vicinity of specific prey.
 For the gardener it is sufficient to know that fungi can find nutrients. When a source is found, fungal strands head over to the area and literally settle in, digesting the material, often combining one nutrient source material with another and transporting nutrients back to the base of the fungus. All the while, other strands "scout" for more food to attack. Nutrients are held inside cell walls, preventing them from leaching away. 


_Fungi and symbiosis_

Soil fungi also form two extremely important mutual relationships with plants. The first is the association of certain fungi with green algae, which results in the formation of lichens. In this symbiotic relationship, the fungus gets food from the alga, which utilizes its photosynthetic powers while the fungal strands make up the thallus, or body, of the lichen, in which the pair lives. Chemicals secreted by the fungus break down the rock and wood upon which the lichens grow. This creates minerals and nutrients for soil, soil microbes, and plants. 
 The second are mycorrhizae (from the Greek for "fungus-root"), symbiotic associations between plant roots and fungi. In return for exudates from plant roots, mycorrhizal fungi seek out water and nutrients and then bring them back to the plant. The plant becomes dependent on the fungi, and the fungi, in turn, cannot live without the plant's exudates. It is a wonderful world, indeed. 
 Mycorrhizae have been known since 1885, when German scientist Albert Benhard Frank compared pines grown in sterilized soil to those grown in sterilized soil inoculated with forest fungi. The seedlings in the inoculated soil grew faster and much larger than those in the sterilized soil. Yet it was only in the 1990s that the terms mycorrhiza (the symbiotic root-fungus relationship; plural, mycorrhizae) and mycorrhizal (its associated adjective) started to creep into the agricultural industry's lexicon, much less the home gardener's. 
 We're the first to admit that we were blindsided by the subject---and one of us had written a popular garden column every week for 30 years and never once mentioned them out of sheer ignorance, a state shared with most gardeners. We now know the extent of our ignorance: at least 90% of all plants form mycorrhizae, and the percentage is probably 95% and even higher. What is worse, we learned that these relationships began some 450 million years ago, with terrestrial plant evolution: plants started growing on the earth's surface only after fungi entered into relationships with aquatic plants. Without mycorrhizal fungi, plants do not obtain the quantities of kinds of nutrients needed to perform at their best; we must alter our gardening practices so as not to kill these crucial beneficial fungi. 
 Perhaps gardeners lack appreciation for fungi because all soil fungi are very fragile. Too much compaction of soil and fungal tubes are crushed and fungi killed. Clearly fungicides but also pesticides, inorganic fertilizer, and physical alteration of the soil (rototilling, double digging) destroy fungal hyphae. Chemicals do so by sucking the cytoplasm out of the fungal body. Rototilling simply breaks up the hyphae. The fruiting bodies of mycorrhizal fungi even decrease when fungi are exposed to air pollution, particularly that containing nitrogenous substances. 
 Mycorrhizal fungi are of two kinds. The first, ectomycorrhizal fungi, grow close to the surface of roots and can form webs around them. Ectomycorrhizal fungi associate with hardwoods and conifers. The second are endomycorrhizal fungi. These actually penetrate and grow inside roots and well as extend outward into the soil. Endomycorrhizal fungi are preferred by most vegetables, annuals, grasses, shrubs, perennials, and softwood trees. 
 Both types of mycorrhizal fungi can extend the reach as well as the surface area of plant roots; the effective surface area of a tree's roots, for example, can be increased a fantastic 700 to 1000 times by the association. Mycorrhizal fungi get carbohydrates they need from the host plant's exudates and use that energy to extend out into the soil, pumping moisture and mining nutrients from places the plant roots alone could not access. These fungi are not lone miners, either. They form intricate webs and sometimes carry water and nutrients to the roots of different plants, not only the one from which they started. It is strange to think of mycorrhizal fungus in association with one plant helping others at the same time, but this occurs. 
 Finding and bringing back the phosphorus that is so critical to plants seems to be a major function of many mycorrhizal fungi; the acids produced by mycorrhizal fungi can unlock, retrieve, and transport chemically locked-up phosphorus back to the host plant. Mycorrhizal fungi also free up copper, calcium, magnesium, zinc, and iron for plant use. As always, any nutrient compounds not delivered to the plant roots are locked up in the fungi and are released when the fungi die and are decayed. 

_Pathogenic and parasitic fungi_

 Beneficial fungi compete for nutrients and form protective webs and nets, often in conjunction with bacteria, around roots (and even on leaf surfaces, as leaves produce exudates that attract bacteria and fungi as well); this prevents some of their pathogenic and parasitic fungal cousins from invading the plant. The list of fungal pathogens impacting agricultural and horticultural crops is long; the topic fills many books and is beyond the scope of this one. Smut fungi, for example, impact the flowers of cereal grains. Rust fungi cause diseases on wheat, oats, rye, fruits, and pines. More common garden problems are downy mildew (_Plasmopara _spp., _Sclerophthora _spp.), root rots (_Phytophthora _spp.), and white rusts (_Albugo_ spp.).
 Be there a gardener who has not encountered botrytis or powdery mildew, a catch-all name for a group of fungi that infects different plants with the same results, an unsightly gray or white powdery fungal growth that covers leaves, stems, and flowers? Most powdery mildew fungi produce airborne spores that do not require free water to germinate. Given temperatures between 60 and 80F (15 and 27C) and high humidity, these spores germinate and infect their host in your yard. How about grusarium wilt on tomatoes, the first thing to suspect when a tomato's leaves start to yellow from the bottom of the plant up? It is caused by _Fusarium oxysporum _f.sp. _lycopersici_, a soil-borne fungus that can survive for a decade or more in dormant stages. It enters the plant through roots and invades its water distribution network. Further testament to the power of fungi is _Armillaria mellea _(oak root fungus), which causes sudden oak death--a tiny fungus taking down towering oaks. The fungal activity decays a tree's lignin and cellulose to such an extent that the tree dies. 
 Pathogenic and parasitic fungi make use of various entry points into plants, including stomata (the opening on leaf surfaces that allow plants to breathe) and wounds. And, of course, with all this talk of enzymes decaying tough-to-digest lignin, it shouldn't surprise any gardener that some fungi can dissolve the cuticle and cell walls of the plant it is attacking. If you think this is difficult, think about the fungi that penetrate bathroom tile, and know that some fungi can penetrate granite in search of food. 
 This entire book could be filled with descriptions of fungi that get their nutrition at the expense of living plants. This is not our purpose---only that you realize that soil is loaded with fungi, and concept most gardeners readily grasp because of direct experience. 

_Functional overlap with bacteria_

 It should be obvious by now that in a healthy soil food web, fungi and bacteria shoulder much the same work and share many of the same functions. Like bacteria, some fungi produce vitamins and antibiotics that kill pathogens in the soil as well as in the human body. Remember penicillin, the most famous fungus-turned-antibiotic of all? In 1928, when English bacteriologist Alexander Fleming returned to his lab after his vacation, he found a fungus had contaminated a petri dish full of _Staphylococcus_ bacteria. It ruined his experiment, but no bacteria were found growing near the fungus, and the world of medicine has never been the same.
 Fungi, like bacteria, play crucial roles in the soil food web as decomposers, nutrient cycles, soil structure builders, and beneficial symbionts, preventing as well as causing diseases. As well, their ability to impact soil pH makes them an important tool for gardening with the soil food web.


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## dirrtyd (Jun 8, 2011)

More people should read this article before they post in this section. If the soil food web is correct no need for a ph pen. I have one now i'm mad I bought it three years ago. I used it a few times now it collects dust. Oh and another thing these teas and the Ph if you are feeding the soil food web correctly the soil will correct itself. keepem green dirrtyd


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## trichome fiend (Jun 13, 2011)

*Algae and Slime Molds*

Algae and slime molds are not related; we merely group themtogether because, while they have roles in soil food webs, they generally dontaffect gardeners. That said, we hope wehave already made the point that the soil food web is a community of organismsplaying out a drama: when one or another character is removed, it may havesignificant consequences on how the play unfolds. 



*Algae*

Algae are broadly defined as single-celled or thread-likephotosynthetic organisms, including seaweeds and even giant kelp. Who hasnt seen algae in a pond, river, orlake, at the beach, or, if not there, on the glass of a fish tank? There are three kinds of algae: marine,freshwater, and terrestrial, the latter often living in soil, on or near thesurface (where sunlight is available) not near the roots. While most algae require very moistconditions, it is surprising to find some that grow in hot deserts and at thefrozen poles---though even these still require a film of water to survive. 

Although algae are closely related to bacteria on the treeof life, they are often thought of as primitive plants because they arephotoautotrophic, meaning they take energy from the sun and produce their ownfood. Indeed algae, like plants, areprimary producers, not dependent on the soils organic matter or other membersof the soil food web for their food needs as are bacteria and, unlike plants,they have no true roots, leaves, or stems and dont have a vascular (water- andfood- conducting) system. The cell wallsof all but the diatoms, a form of algae, do contain cellulose, and in this waythey are like plants. The cell walls ofdiatoms are composed of silica covered with an organic skin that decays anddisappears after the organism dies, leaving behind, in huge numbers, the silicaskeletons that make up diatomaceous earth, a product familiar to manygardeners.

Most gardeners associate algae with bodies of water, not theraised bed or lawn, yet there you will find them if there is enoughmoisture---terrestrial algae require not only light but a film of water inorder to survive. A teaspoon of soil maycontain anywhere from 10,000 to 100,000 cells of green algae (phylumchlorophyta), yellow-green algae (Xanthophyta), and diatoms(Bacillariophyta). At one time algaeserved as pioneer organisms, growing on moist rock surfaces and, when theydied, combining with weathered rock, and air, and water to form early soils. In this important way, algae helped start thesuccession of life by providing necessary organic matter when there was noother. 

Algae help to create soil by forming carbonic acids as partof their metabolic functions. Thiscauses rock to weather----a great example of chemical weathering brought aboutby biological activity. Resultant bitsof minerals and the dead algae combine, producing soil eventually. This is not unlike the decay of rock surfacescaused by lichens---the symbiotic relationship between certain algae andfungi. The fungus provides and humid andsomewhat protected environment, in which the alga can live and, in return,receives photosynthesized food from the alga. In this relationship, the decay abilities of algae are aided by theirfungal partners, and the process of weathering is sped up considerably. Lichens contribute nitrogen to the soil, andblue-green algae (Cyanophyta) use the enzyme nitrogenase to fix nitrogen,either in a symbiotic relationship or nonsymbiotically, similar tonitrogen-fixing bacteria. This is howrice plants can get nitrogen from the water in which they grow. 

In truth, the role of algae in gardening is minor because oftheir need for sunlight, which can only penetrate a short distance into thesoil. However, where they do exist inthe soil, algae can excrete polysaccharides, mucilage, and slimes---all stickystuff---which help bind and aggregate soil particles. Their presence can also help to form airpassageways in otherwise compacted soil. And algae fit into some soil food webs as primary producers that areeaten by certain nematodes. 



*Slime Molds*

The slime molds are unusual-looking, amoeba-like organismsthat inhabit damp, rotting wood, leaves, manure, lawn thatch, rottingmushrooms, and other organic material. They spend most of their lives pursuing bacteria and yeast in thesoil. The few hundred different kinds ofslime molds are in many ways like fungi but largely differentiated by the waythey eat. Whereas fungi digest theirfood externally and then bring the nutrients inside the organism, slime moldsengulf food and digest in internally. 

The two groups of slime moldsDictyosteliomycota (cellularslime molds) and Myxomycota (plasmodial slime molds)---have similar lifecycles: they start out as spores and germinate into myxamoebae, amoeboidorganisms that live in the soil and ingest bacteria, fungi spores, and smallprotozoa, locking up the nutrients they contain and preventing them fromleaching out. They themselves are foodfor insect larvae, worms, and in particular, specialized beetles that have mandiblesdesigned to scoop up the soft mold and cram it into their mouths. 

At some point, for no apparent reason, individual myxamoebaeswarm together; up to 125,000 or so form a mass that looks something like a bigslug, a dollop of jelly, or, in some cases, vomit. These masses are of various sizes, in shadesof tan, yellow, pink, or red, and are actually quite attractive in their ownway. The species of one commonplasmodial slime mold genus, Physarum, are usually about 1 inch (2.5centimeters) thick and can grow to 1 foot (30 centimeters) or more wide. 

The individual cells in the mass lose their walls, and theresulting plasmodium (or multinucleated mass of cytoplasm) emerges from thesoil and slowly moves over leaves, grass, driveways, logs, mulch and anythingelse in its way. It does so at anaverage speed of 1 millimeter per hour, engulfing food as it goes. If a source of organic dead matter is putnear a plasmodium, it will go to it. Even more amazingly, if you cut plasmodium in half or even in quarters,the parts will come together again.

All sorts of theories have been put forward to explain whythese organisms swarm. It may be thatwhen food becomes scarce, there is a need to work together. There is, after all, something to be said forstrength in numbers. Other slime moldscome in contact with this slime sheet, not unlike that left by a slug as ittravels, and take the same trail, adding their exudates to the path. As more and more organisms gather on thepath, each adding its chemical slime to the mix, the attraction increases untilliteral swarms of myxamoebae congregate into a growing mass. 

Eventually the plasmodium finds an appropriate spot andforms a fruiting structure, or sporangium. This unusual=looking body is of a distinctive shape for each slime moldspecies. Some sporangia are like tinyraised towers, in the top of which spores are formed. Sporangia come in yellow, blue, red, brown,and white and form a beautiful net of colors that really is as pretty asanything you can grow in your gardens. 

From the soil food web perspective, slime molds help cyclenutrients, and the slime each individual myxamoeba creates helps bind soilparticles. When conditions becomeunfavorable, plasmodia dry up and turn to powdery dust. Although these organisms dont play a majorrole in the garden, when a gardener comes across a slime mold, he or sheremembers it.


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## Da Almighty Jew (Jun 13, 2011)

Hey trichome fiend does ph matter if i am cloning in rockwool and I use compost tea to clone?


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## trichome fiend (Jun 14, 2011)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> Hey trichome fiend does ph matter if i am cloning in rockwool and I use compost tea to clone?


...hate to let you down, but I've never experienced using rockwool with compost teas. I personally prefer aerocloning....wish I could help ya with that. I would suggest you presoak your rockwool into water pH'd to 5.0 overnight - 24 hours....then give the young ones a 1/4 strength of week #1 with hydroponic solution. Good luck.


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## trichome fiend (Jul 12, 2011)

*Protozoa

*Most gardeners first poked and prodded protozoa as part of a biology lab assignment, which invariable involved identifying and sketching cell parts of a paramecium; they may therefore remember that protozoa are single-celled organisms with a nucleus, which makes them eukaryotic and therefore, along with fungi, members of the domain Eukarya. Protozoa (which term is used descriptively in the book, as shorthand for a group of non-algal, non-fungal, animal-like unicellular organisms, across several kingdoms---but don&#8217;t get us started!) are almost always heterotrophs, meaning they cannot make their own food. Instead, they obtain their nutrients by ingesting bacteria, primarily, but also the occasional fungus and, to a lesser extent, other protozoa. 
Paramecia are still the favorite microbe. That&#8217;s because these and other soil protozoa are considerably larger than bacteria, 5 to 500 micrometers verses 1 to 4 micrometers. This may still seem small to you, but in the scheme of microorganisms, 500 micrometers is pretty large---so large that under ideal lighting conditions a paramecium, at least in water, is visible to the human eye. You still have to look very carefully and certainly will not be able to differentiate any of those internal or external features you were told to label in school, but without a microscope you can see them flitting around. Through and electron microscope, unseen detail is observable. 
Protozoa are something to stay away from if you are as small as a bacterium. By way of comparison, if a single bacterium was the size of a pea, a paramecium would be as large as a watermelon. This is why bacteria can hide from most protozoa in soil pores that are too small for the protozoa to reach into. Another way to make the comparison is to go back to that same teaspoon of good soil, with its billion-count bacteria---and &#8220;only&#8221; several thousand protozoa. 
Over 60,000 kinds of protozoa are known and, contrary to any residual youthful hope you may have that they only live in pond water, a majority of them live in the soil; however, all do require moister to lead an active life. Given the crucial role protozoa play, a quick review of some school biology --- and then some --- is in order. 




*Amoebae, ciliates, and flagellates*

Protozoa come in three basic &#8220;models.&#8221; First are the pseudopods, single-celled animals with amorphous forms most will remember as amoebae. These are constantly on the move, a feat (if you will pardon the poor pun) accomplished by pouring their cytoplasm---the soup with all its life parts---into one or more false appendages called pseudopodia (&#8220;false feet&#8221. Pseudopods themselves are of two types. The first has a shell-like exoskeleton and five predefined holes (think of a bowling or golf glove), through which the pseudopodia can appear. The other class lakes any shell or predefined pseudopodia; these amoebae are relatively large microorganisms, and many would be as visible as paramecia if they weren&#8217;t so transparent. Amoebae lack a mouth and ingest bacteria by surrounding them and engulfing them in gas bubbles, into which are transmitted digestive enzymes. The entire vesicle is then absorbed, and waste products subsequently expelled. 
Next in size are the ciliates. These protozoa are considerably smaller than their amoeboid cousins but still much larger than their bacterial prey. Ciliates are covered with rows of hairs that beat like the slaves&#8217; oars on a Roman galley, propelling the organism to food---or away from enemies. In addition, these &#8220;oars&#8221; create currents that bring bacteria into the ciliate&#8217;s mouth region, so they can be ingested. The familiar paramecium is a ciliate protozoan. 
The third and smallest types of protozoa are the flagellates. Their one of two long, whip-like hairs, or flagella, allow them to move about in search of food. A few flagellates, like euglena (the &#8220;classic&#8221; freshwater flagellates of pond water), produce their own food via photosynthesis and are thus autotrophs; most, however, are heterotrophic, obtaining nutrients from eating and digesting other organisms in the soil. 



*More symbiotic relationships*

As so many of the soil food web organisms do, protozoa form symbiotic relationships, particularly with bacteria, to such an extent that such associations appear to be the norm rather than the exception. A classic example is that of the flagellates residing in the guts of termites, which digest the wood fibers the termites eats. We now know that the relationship is actually a three-way one. Electron microscopy reveals working bacteria in the gut of the termite as well; these fix nitrogen from the atmosphere for the flagellates. Not often do you find a triple symbiotic relationship, though surely more will be discovered as exploration courtesy of the electron microscope continues. 
Lots of ciliates, too, enter into symbiotic relationships with bacteria. Some ciliates live in sand and &#8220;farm&#8221; bacteria colonies; and it is the methane-generating bacteria inside ciliates that are responsible, in part, for the methane gas that develops in some ciliates as anaerobic respiration takes place. 



*Population-control police*

Protozoa are attracted to and enter into an area where there is a good supply of bacteria in a pretty consistent progression (on average, a protozoan can eat 10,000 bacteria a day). First come the flagellates, the smallest of these microbes; these can move into small spaces in the soil, places where the large protozoa cannot and where bacteria are plentiful. Even after the larger ciliates arrive on the scene, the still-large population of bacteria provides plenty of sustenance for both the original flagellates and the newer ciliates. Finally, amoebae move through in search of bacterial prey (and also smaller protozoa). The combined pressure on the bacterial population becomes so great, numbers start to diminish. As readily available bacteria become harder to find, the larger ciliates and amoebae start to eat more of smaller ciliates and flagellates. This reduces the populations of bacteria to stabilize and return to a level that maintains the soil food web balance.
Why aren&#8217;t all the bacteria consumed by protozoa? One reason is that protozoa are restricted by bacterial slime: this film is hard for them to penetrate, and it lacks the oxygen that they require. Another reason is that the bacteria are smaller and able to hide in tiny soil pores.
It seems counterintuitive that increasing protozoa populations most often results in increases in the bacterial populations upon which they prey. This occurs because fewer bacteria means less competition for nutrients among the surviving bacteria. Not having to compete all the time for food means they can divide well fed. Likewise their progeny will have something to eat so they can multiply as well. If protozoa can keep their own numbers in check, they have all the bacteria and fungi they need to eat. 
It is not just populations of bacteria that protozoa keep in balance. In their search for sustenance, some protozoa attack nematodes. Others reduce nematode populations by competing for the same, limited food resources, i.e., other protozoa and fungi. This also helps keep bad-guy nematode populations from flourishing. 
Protozoa need moisture to live, travel, and reproduce, and hydroscopic water---that thin film of water left on the surfaces of soil particles and aggregates---provides it, under normal soil conditions. If things dry up, however, most protozoa stop feeding and dividing and go dormant, encasing themselves in a cyst. How long protozoa can survive in the state varies from species to species; some can withstand an extended dry spell of several years. This technique ensures the survival of both the protozoa and the plants that benefit from the nitrogen and other nutrients released by their activity. 



*Mineralizers*

Of critical importance to the workings of the soil food web are the waste products produced with protozoa ingest bacteria or fungi. These wastes contain carbon and other nutritional compounds that had been immobilized bat are now once again mineralized and made available to plants. Nitrogen compounds, including ammonium (NH4+), are among them. If nitrogen-fixing bacteria are present (remember, these usually require a pH of 7 or above to have good populations), free ammonium is converted into nitrates. If not, the nitrogen remains in ammonium form. 
Mineralization of nutrients is crucial to the survival of plants in a natural system. Our premise is that by interfering with or destroying the soil food web, the gardener has to step in and do extra work, making gardening a chore instead of an enjoyable hobby. If you are not convinced, then consider that as much as 80% of the nitrogen a plant needs comes from the wastes produced by plant exudates to the rhizosphere, and that is where protozoa consume them, a huge source of plant food is delivered, right around the roots. 



*Other soil food web functions*

All protozoa participate to some degree in the decay process by inadvertently ingesting small particles of organic matter. These are then broken up into smaller pieces if not totally digested and become available to bacteria and fungi in the waste stream. And other soil food web members rely on protozoa as one of their food sources---another reminder that it is a soil food web, not chain, with which we are dealing. Certain nematodes, for example, are dependent on protozoa as their food source and have developed specialized mouthparts to better ingest them. Worms too rely on healthy populations of protozoa. Without protozoa in the area, gardens are devoid of worms. Similarly, many microarthropods require a healthy dose of protozoa to thrive. 
Finally, not all protozoa are beneficial. Several kinds eat roots, but in a healthy food web these are kept in check by others, cannibalistic protozoa. So to a certain degree protozoa serve as a food source for themselves---and remain, even the worst of them, crucial characters in a healthy soil food web.


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## trichome fiend (Jul 12, 2011)

[youtube]yPXDesQ_G5c&feature[/youtube] [youtube]VuHznslr8aI&feature[/youtube] [youtube]gnp4Ywjz-po&feature[/youtube]


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## Mr. Fantastic (Jul 26, 2011)

Great post. You seem to know your organic ways. I'm a hydro grower that's always been tempted to switch. Got a few questions for you. 1. Does AACT have enough nutritional value to replace Chem nutes in soilless mix? I currently grow in 80-20 percent coco/perlite mix and would rather stick to this medium. 2. Can I use guanos and organic meals in the tea instead of compost? Summer is very short here and would rather not compost in cold wet weather. 3. Are bennies able to survive long enough in grow room that's constantly supplemented with co2 at 1500 ppm to reap their rewards? Thought they need oxygen. 4. If all I ask is possible, how do you cure the cal/mag deficiency that exist in coco organically? I really feel like doing this in the future and would like to keep it 100. I grew 2 plants in chicken manure, mushroom compost and coco mix and was really impressed with the vegetative growth. I understand now that I needed to supplement the plants for their flowering needs. I would really like to keep it hydro organic if possible. Love learning new ways to grow.


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## PLANT. (Jul 26, 2011)

*feed the soil, not your plants!! woo hoo!*

*nice thread OP, ill read it later*


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## trichome fiend (Aug 25, 2011)

Mr. Fantastic said:


> Great post. You seem to know your organic ways. I'm a hydro grower that's always been tempted to switch. Got a few questions for you. 1. Does AACT have enough nutritional value to replace Chem nutes in soilless mix?


...sure. Noone fertilized the forest and it grows just fine. ...the soil food web will provide your plant for what it needs. 



Mr. Fantastic said:


> I currently grow in 80-20 percent coco/perlite mix and would rather stick to this medium. 2. Can I use guanos and organic meals in the tea instead of compost? Summer is very short here and would rather not compost in cold wet weather.


...coco is organic and I believe has a CEC (Cation Exchange Capasity) that will sustain microorganisms. However, I believe it is important to have a good soil mix to start. I believe Roots Organics has a coco-based soil (I've never used it,yet!) In an AACT, your taking microorganisms and repopulating them. One could use EWC (earth worm castings) as a microorganism source (rather than compost), add kelp and molasses, bubble for 24 hours @ 70F-80F to produce a good AACT...add to soil. Read the 1st few pages of this thread to understand how the soil food web provides all necessary elements.



Mr. Fantastic said:


> 3. Are bennies able to survive long enough in grow room that's constantly supplemented with co2 at 1500 ppm to reap their rewards? Thought they need oxygen. 4. If all I ask is possible, how do you cure the cal/mag deficiency that exist in coco organically? I really feel like doing this in the future and would like to keep it 100. I grew 2 plants in chicken manure, mushroom compost and coco mix and was really impressed with the vegetative growth. I understand now that I needed to supplement the plants for their flowering needs. I would really like to keep it hydro organic if possible. Love learning new ways to grow.


...I've heard it said that organic grows only need a 1200ppm, and ofcourse plants produce oxygen.... Dolomite lime should be added to your soil, and ebsom salts are valid for organic growing. Here's a couple shots of my organically grown plants using co2 @ 1500 ppm. I used Fox Farm's Ocean Forest and soil drenched with AACT throughout the grow.


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## jcdws602 (Sep 6, 2011)

Very informative thread........thanx


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## trichome fiend (Sep 8, 2011)

jcdws602 said:


> Very informative thread........thanx


... NP


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## Rrog (Sep 8, 2011)

Nice thread


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## Turtle Time (Sep 8, 2011)

For people who say they don't want to compost, or would rather buy EWC. . . They make worm farms that could fit under your kitchen sink and allow you to (vermi)compost all your organic matter.

If you mostly just want EWC for tea, you could probably produce enough in a small apartment to keep you going. If you can get the beneficials established, they just need to be maintained.


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## Rrog (Sep 8, 2011)

If more growers could figure out how they could simply compost, the world would be a better place. Otherwise if we're buying bottled nutes (organic or not) we're supporting a company that inevitably cares more about our money than about us. I'd love it if everyone went to simple amended soil with their own compost.


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## Turtle Time (Sep 8, 2011)

Rrog said:


> If more growers could figure out how they could simply compost, the world would be a better place. Otherwise if we're buying bottled nutes (organic or not) we're supporting a company that inevitably cares more about our money than about us. I'd love it if everyone went to simple amended soil with their own compost.




I am going to start breeding my own nematodes, and meal worms (to breed the nematodes), along with red wigglers. There's endless amounts of free manure around here. So I should always have enough food for the worm, so they can crank out endless castings.



I'll probably compost whatever manure I can get my hands on that the worms don't consume.



Then all I'll need is some perlite, rock dust, a variety of meals (bone, blood, etc)



Yards and yards of nutrient (microbe) rich soil, for almost no cost.



Pick up a 5 gallon pale of molasses from the feed store for $20 to keep the microbes alive in my tea; and I think I should be well on my way.


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## Rrog (Sep 8, 2011)

You re my goddam hero.


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## Rrog (Sep 8, 2011)

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/QR/QRToC.html Clearly you must have read this at some point.


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## Turtle Time (Sep 8, 2011)

Rrog said:


> http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/QR/QRToC.html Clearly you must have read this at some point.




I am surprised I have never come across this (specifically) before. I have bookmarked it, and will be reading it immediately.


+Rep



If anyone else is composting, and would like to get things moving a little faster. . . 


If it dries out, instead of just using water to moisten it, use worm tea. Misting fresh compost with worm tea and/or buring it in mature compost is also recommended. 



You cannot overdo it with worm tea. Good for foliar, soil drench, clones, etc etc


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## Rrog (Sep 8, 2011)

Please tell me where I can learn how to raise nematodes. Is there a site? Also, might you know where different species are available? You'd want an assortment.


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## Rrog (Sep 8, 2011)

Turtle, that online book was written by the grandmother of composting back in 1946. Back when big chemical companies were already strangling farmers. See here compost activators made from different herbs. Really a fast and fascinating read. Compost is the coolest thing and it's free. Holy shit batman


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## Turtle Time (Sep 8, 2011)

Rrog said:


> Please tell me where I can learn how to raise nematodes. Is there a site? Also, might you know where different species are available? You'd want an assortment.


You can buy them online. It's usually like $20 for several million nematodes. 


Once you have them, you can get them to multiple by putting them in some moist bedding, and putting meal worms in with them. They enter the meal worms, reproduce until the meal worm explodes and then exit. 


You can then take the meal worms when they are dead, but before they burst, and bury them in your plants' soil. The nematodes will then reproduce using whatever pests it finds laying eggs in the soil. As long as there's moisture and bugs in the soil (almost all bad), they will continue to reproduce.


In order to keep some nematode stock alive (in a tote or whatever), you need to keep giving them meal worms. In order to have a constant supply of meal worms, it is dead simple to breed them by letting a few purchased meal worms mature into beetles. You keep a couple dozen beetles in a tote with some saw dust and fresh fruit and you will see the eggs/meal worms in the bedding. You can then pick them out and throw them in a file gallon pale with some meal in the bottom (corm meal, oat meal, whatever).



For a small garden, all it would take is a couple 5 gallon pales and a couple of medium sized totes. That, along with a worm bin with shelves, and a compost tumbler in the back yard, and a 5 gallon pale for brewing tea. . . 


Pretty inexpensive and enough to get started with a nice organic garden.



Rrog said:


> Turtle, that online book was written by the grandmother of composting back in 1946. Back when big chemical companies were already strangling farmers. See here compost activators made from different herbs. Really a fast and fascinating read. Compost is the coolest thing and it's free. Holy shit batman



I am always looking for new information on composting, vermicomposting, tea brewing, etc etc



Thanks again.


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## Rrog (Sep 8, 2011)

Steinernema Nematodes are all I've ever seen, though others that simply eat protozoa and fungi are needed also. Thanks for that info. I'm going to read and research that a bit. Many thanks. [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


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## Rrog (Sep 8, 2011)

So given that you are bound to be producing more meal worms than needed (that's my first impression) I wonder if these extra mealworm carcasses can be tossed into an active compost pile. The heat of composting would kill the nematodes, but still their organic matter is going back to the soil via composting.


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## Turtle Time (Sep 8, 2011)

Rrog said:


> So given that you are bound to be producing more meal worms than needed (that's my first impression) I wonder if these extra mealworm carcasses can be tossed into an active compost pile. The heat of composting would kill the nematodes, but still their organic matter is going back to the soil via composting.




Depending on how hot the compost is, the nematodes may or may not survive. But it certainly wouldnt hurt; neither in terms of supplying your soil with beneficial microbes nor with controlling the amount of pests that may live in compost piles that you don't want going near your plants.




Here is some more info about Breeding Nematodes.


If you search google (or even craigslist, depending on your area), you will find suppliers of nematodes. All different types. They will tell you what each species is best for, and how to best utilize them.



Most nematodes that you would put in your garden are not going to harm any of the other beneficials, so you can continue to toss the dead meal worms in with the plants without much fear of over population. If there's nothing for them to breed in (larva) they will just die out. No harm done.



Nematodes don't harm earth worms, plants or humans. So if you have too many meal worms, you can feed them to the chickens or pidgins or fish or whatever else you have. You can also simply toss them into your worm farm and let them clear out any pests that may be in there.


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## Rrog (Sep 8, 2011)

Still a nice thread


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## trichome fiend (Sep 8, 2011)

....my GHS, Trainwreck


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## Rrog (Sep 8, 2011)

I'm reading the book. Like it as much as you. Nice bud.


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## jcdws602 (Sep 8, 2011)

Ebook is nothing like the real book......even though I might download a shared ebook if it is good I will still go buy it and add it to my collection......just my


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## malignant (Sep 9, 2011)

off topic lets get back soil


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## trichome fiend (Nov 10, 2011)




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## Rrog (Nov 10, 2011)

Has anyone else had a chance to read this fantastic book other than Trich and me? One of the more interesting points really cemented into my brain is the total waste of time and effort associated with trying to pH balance true soil. The plant is in control. Right along the same lines is the waste of time associated with trying to flush true soil.

I say "true soil," compared to a medium being fed bottled nutes, "organic" or otherwise.


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## trichome fiend (Nov 10, 2011)

Rrog said:


> the total waste of time and effort associated with trying to pH balance true soil. The plant is in control. Right along the same lines is the waste of time associated with trying to flush true soil.


...I sometimes attempt to explain this and there's alot of controversy...I just shake my head when I see these help threads concerning their runoff's pH too low/high and how some really think they're going to wash the bat shit out of the soil....wtf? Who am I to judge though ya know, this book set me straight truth be told. 
...how's it goin brotha' Rrog?


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## Rrog (Nov 10, 2011)

Trich, I feel the same way. Hard to change attitudes, and that's why this thread of yours is so great. It's full of facts that help to dispel myth and rumors. The book set me straight also.

Tell me Trich, what type of soil are you using? Also, have you heard about the "no-till" method?


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## trichome fiend (Nov 10, 2011)

....this was an experiment that went well....I veg'd her in a 1 gallon pot of FFOF for 3 weeks ( cut tops twice early on), then I transplanted her into a 2 gallon pot 2 weeks into flowering.....she got water only througout the whole grow.


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## Rrog (Nov 10, 2011)

Those buds are impressive. Very efficient growing man. How'd you like the FFOF drainage?


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## trichome fiend (Nov 11, 2011)

Rrog said:


> Tell me Trich, what type of soil are you using? Also, have you heard about the "no-till" method?


...I had to work last night, didn't want you to think I ignored our conversation. 
...I mostly use Fox Farm's Ocean Forest but do and have made my own mix (promix bx with lime and microrisen, ewc, kelp, guanos)

...I can't be for certain if I've heard of the exact method...I do know that a tiller breaks up and destroys networks of mycorrhizal fungi, decimates worms, and rips and crushes arthropods. It destroys soil structure and eventually saps soil of necessary air. 

_If youre starting with a compacted, heavy clay *soil* containing little *organic* matter, rototilling will improve con__ditions a lot. A tiller is a very efficient way to loosen and *aerate* severely compacted *soil* and to chop and mix a large dose of *organic* matter into it. But if you are starting with *soil* that has decent structure and adequate amounts of *organic* matter, rototilling can easily destroy the worm-welcoming environment that already exists. This is because the pulverizing action of the tiller breaks up soil aggregates, disrupts capillaries, and demolishes worm-tunnel networks. - from The Vegetable Gardeners Bible_


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## Rrog (Nov 12, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...I can't be for certain if I've heard of the exact method...I do know that a tiller breaks up and destroys networks of mycorrhizal fungi, decimates worms, and rips and crushes arthropods. It destroys soil structure and eventually saps soil of necessary air.


You have it exactly right. That's at the heart of no-till. Just as you said, the networks are decimated when we till. The opposite is also true if we do not till. The no-till method says basically harvest your plant bu chopping at the base. Make a small incision in the soil near the stump of the first plant. Plop a new seedling or close in the incision. The soil fungal and bacterial network is still in action from the previous plant, and will swarm the new plant. The seedling gets a huge jumpstart, since AM Fungi won't even start growing until there's a plant root present. 

The soil is simple amended with compost and EWC. and the grow continues. Some guys have a cover crop of micro clover and such. Fixes Nitrogen and also keeps the networks happy. 

No shit, after all the reading and discussions I'm convinced this is not only the best but also the cheapest way to grow. If you have your own compost pile you have the worlds best compost. If you have a small worm bin, you have the worlds best worm castings. Assuming the soil was originally built with slow dissolving sources of minerals, really all that's needed is compost and EWC. A nice tea now and gain as foliar and you're good to go.


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## Rrog (Dec 10, 2011)

I read through a couple more brilliant threads regarding flushing true soil for shits sake, and I thought it would be good to bring this excellent thread back. There is a lot of great info in here, and I hope that more will read and follow this thread.

There is still so much BS info being tossed around it is frustrating. I shouldn't get bothered, it's just that some poor bastard looking for info is likely to incorrectly read that he needs to but exotic bottled ferts and flush the shit out of his soil. This sort of bullshit info has to be stopped or at least countered with some fact.

If you have a hydro system or some dirt-like medium you call soil then I'm sure you'll want to flush out the crap you've been adding, but if you have nicely amended soil then you're all taken care of. No pH adjustments and no flush.


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## Rrog (Dec 10, 2011)

I just finished up a grow using SuperSoil. An example of a well amended soil. Grew Plush Berry and SSH. No bugs, no burnt tips... boring. I also automated the watering with Blumats running water straight from my well. I was able to leave the grow for a week at a time. The millions upon millions of microbes were back home tending to my plants.

Not only the best grow I ever had, but the simplest. Very, very smooth smoke even before the cure. And the SSH went 11 weeks. No flushing or starving. 

I'm impressed by the marketing that lures guys in to buy bottled ferts. I'm impressed because growers have been convinced that they need to buy bottle after bottle of expensive fluids. Amazing how susceptible some are to pretty bottles and marketing hype. I think it's a holdover from the 50s that scientists have much better answers than a few hundred million years of evolution. Amazing. 

If a guy wants to spend a ton of cash on Ninja Bloom Builder 3000 that's great. What bothers me is when this same guy shames others into following his nonesense.


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## trichome fiend (Dec 10, 2011)

Rrog said:


> If a guy wants to spend a ton of cash on Ninja Bloom Builder 3000 that's great. What bothers me is when this same guy shames others into following his nonesense.


 
...A 'fuckin men!


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## watchhowIdoit (Dec 10, 2011)

May have missed them but I didnt see Bruce Deuley or Howard Garrett mentioned. They agree to disagree on a few points. But for the most part their basic approaches are the same. And they both really know their Ps and Qs when it come to growing.........


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## watchhowIdoit (Dec 10, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> *Soil Food Web Gardening *
> *...with compost teas*​
> ...(text from the book, "Teaming with Microbes" written by Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis)​...any questions or comments about the book are welcome, I'd love to discuss it.
> ...+ REP if you like.
> ...


By: by Jeff. Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis.....


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## Rrog (Dec 10, 2011)

Such a great book. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I like the idea of this thread to break it down for discussion. It points to the simplification available to us all.


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## trichome fiend (Dec 10, 2011)

watchhowIdoit said:


> By: by Jeff. Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis.....


...the very 1st line under the title.


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## Da Almighty Jew (Feb 14, 2012)

Hey trichome fiend, would adding cal mag plus by botanicare to a tea destroy microbiology? Because i use ro water and i need to get them cal mag


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## trichome fiend (Feb 15, 2012)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> Hey trichome fiend, would adding cal mag plus by botanicare to a tea destroy microbiology? Because i use ro water and i need to get them cal mag



...I'm not for sure if botanicare adds salts or not, but a safe way to apply salts (if that is the case)...would be to follow up with a soil drench of a compost tea afterwards.


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## wyteboi (Feb 15, 2012)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> Hey trichome fiend, would adding cal mag plus by botanicare to a tea destroy microbiology? Because i use ro water and i need to get them cal mag


no it wont hurt the tea, first turn your ro into tap by adding the cal mag then make your tea. a lot of folks dont realize just how strong a colony of microbes can be. a lot of folks automatically think because the food is synthetic , it will kill the lil guys and thats just not true. it takes "too much" synthetics to kill the herd. usually the chems get used way before they have time to do damage. 

as long as you aint constantly dumping chems in the tea or dirt the microbes will keep everything in order.

in my world RO is just too clean for me. tap has always been better until now. my water co is shoving a LOT of chloramine in my water and it smells like strait bleach. thats a lil dirtier then i want it so i use fish an a biological filter to clean my water. i cant sit here an say ive had the best crops ever off of it , but with my knowledge on water i just *know* how good it is. 

a couple of guppies and the bio filter gives me water with a low amount of nutes in it , full of microbes , and most of all , clean.




soil


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## wyteboi (Feb 15, 2012)

trichome fiend said:


> ...I'm not for sure if botanicare adds salts or not, but a safe way to apply salts (if that is the case)...would be to follow up with a soil drench of a compost tea afterwards.


as far as i am aware all synthetic food is salt. im sure the science is a lot deeper then that but i think thats what it boils down to. 

yes i agree with a good dose of tea and carbs will help to get rid of extra salts a lil bit but not much , the best way to get rid of the salts is to just not feed at all that way the plant uses them up. if the plant dont use them up in time the soil will become "toxic". i also believe if the biology of the soil is good then the microbes/fungus can help to "hide" the salt from the plant till it needs it. (thats just my opinion from tons of knowledge on soil an microbes.)



soil


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## trichome fiend (Feb 16, 2012)

*Da Almighty Jew, 

*Molassas is a cal/mag source, green sand or glacial rock, dolomite lime, ...Or just buy GH's organic cal-mag, and follow the directions on the label.


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## Da Almighty Jew (Feb 17, 2012)

trichome, i have see people add maxicrop liquid fish to make tea and i hear people telling me to add it after the tea is brewed because it is dissolved easily in water and could possibly go anerobic,(i dont see how that is possible). i thought it would be more beneficial to make tea with it because the microbes would break it down more... what do you think?


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## PakaloloHui (Feb 17, 2012)

if you are brewing a tea with air, it will not go anaerobic, unless brewed longer than 48hrs, typically at which point adding more material ie. molasses will help to keep things alive. One hour after the air has stopped the tea starts to go bad unless kept cold.

A nice cleaning of a fish tank with loads of shit add some kelp, mollases, guano, worm castings, and add microbes your last hour. You will have one frosty shake not tea!!! Teaming with plant goodness.


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## PakaloloHui (Feb 17, 2012)

Get "Teaming with Microbes" great book and if you are brewing tea's, it is a must have!!! I do believe that is where Trichome Fiend has learned a good portion of his knowledge, if I am not mistaken...


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## trichome fiend (Feb 18, 2012)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> trichome, i have see people add maxicrop liquid fish to make tea and i hear people telling me to add it after the tea is brewed because it is dissolved easily in water and could possibly go anerobic,(i dont see how that is possible). i thought it would be more beneficial to make tea with it because the microbes would break it down more... what do you think?


...I've been so lucky as to be able to Q: and A: the author/owner of http://microbeorganics.com/ ,here is his response.

If you are wanting to make compost tea = ACT. The easiest and an effective way is to use whatever compost or vermicompost (ewc) you are using at 2.38% of your volume of water [eg. 5 gal X 2.38% = around 1/2 cup) and 0.50% black strap molasses (20 ml or around a tablespoon + a teaspoon), then brew that for 24 hrs to 36 hrs. If your brewer is homemade, let your nose and gut be your guide. If you wish to put in some alfalfa meal there is nothing wrong with that *but whatever you add put it at the beginning of the brew*. Alfalfa meal maximum 0.25% ( 10 ml; 2 teaspoons) 
*Fish* *hydrolysate* 0.063% (2.52 ml or 1/2 teaspoon). You can also use soft rock phosphate at the same rate but lately I've learned it can contain polonium 210 so up to you.

Efficacy is dependent on compost quality.

I would not use liquid kelp weekly but that is your choice. Follow the instructions on the bottle.

I would use humic acid a little under what the instructions say.

I use *fish* *hydrolysate* diluted according to manufacturer when I think it seems needed but it depends on your whole growing regimine and I don't know that.


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## Rrog (Mar 22, 2012)

Howdy all. I've been off the forums for a few months. I thought I'd check in on this thread specifically, as it's one of the most helpful guides.


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## dannyboy602 (Mar 22, 2012)

I'm really more into soil biology now and finding this thread is great. I'll sub up and look for some of the publications you guys are reading and start from there.


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## Da Almighty Jew (Mar 22, 2012)

the only book i know of so far is teaming with microbes.. Does anybody know of anymore books?


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## Rrog (Mar 23, 2012)

Teaming is the best and most read-able book of its kind that I've found. It seems to put the big perspective in place for people.


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## wyteboi (Mar 26, 2012)

trichome fiend said:


> ...I've been so lucky as to be able to Q: and A: the author/owner of http://microbeorganics.com/ ,here is his response.
> 
> If you are wanting to make compost tea = ACT. The easiest and an effective way is to use whatever compost or vermicompost (ewc) you are using at 2.38% of your volume of water [eg. 5 gal X 2.38% = around 1/2 cup) and 0.50% black strap molasses (20 ml or around a tablespoon + a teaspoon), then brew that for 24 hrs to 36 hrs. If your brewer is homemade, let your nose and gut be your guide. If you wish to put in some alfalfa meal there is nothing wrong with that *but whatever you add put it at the beginning of the brew*. Alfalfa meal maximum 0.25% ( 10 ml; 2 teaspoons)
> *Fish* *hydrolysate* 0.063% (2.52 ml or 1/2 teaspoon). You can also use soft rock phosphate at the same rate but lately I've learned it can contain polonium 210 so up to you.
> ...


GREAT POST tricky! 

the guy that runs that site is my idol kiss-ass thats one of the many places to read about real "soil".


i always add everything at the begging of brew. it just seemed logical. 

AGAIN: the QUALITY of your tea relies on the quality of your compost/ewc !!




soil


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## wyteboi (Mar 26, 2012)

Rrog said:


> Teaming is the best and most read-able book of its kind that I've found. It seems to put the big perspective in place for people.


your right , thats a very quality read! 

once a man reads that book , his whole outlook on dirt changes.... it goes from a pile of dirty dust , to a pile of living goodness. ..... then you start accumulatin bugs you never seen or heard of an instead of freakin out , your tryin to figure out a way to feed them! 



just for everyones info , all microbes/fungus good and BAD will thrive off the extra carbs put into the tea/dirt , so the only way to test your teas without a scope and a degree is to just go by your nose and try not to brew for more then three days , and the *key* thing is to have plenty of air. there should be no "dead spots" in your brewer. all water needs to be moving an the surface of the brew needs to look like a volcano about to erupt. (the more air bubbles popping on the surface= more air getting into brew) 
i have ran teas for a couple weeks , but i dont recommend unless you read one of those full books about teas. 



soil


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## Rrog (Mar 26, 2012)

wyteboi said:


> once a man reads that book , his whole outlook on dirt changes.... it goes from a pile of dirty dust , to a pile of living goodness. ..... then you start accumulatin bugs you never seen or heard of an instead of freakin out , your tryin to figure out a way to feed them!


I agree completely. I've also come to appreciate adding materials like Crab Shell to specifically feed predatory helpers that seek and destroy nasty critters that would like to harm our plant. I feed the herd that feeds my plant and I also feed the guard dogs


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## wyteboi (Mar 26, 2012)

Rrog said:


> I agree completely. I've also come to appreciate adding materials like Crab Shell to specifically feed predatory helpers that seek and destroy nasty critters that would like to harm our plant. I feed the herd that feeds my plant and I also feed the guard dogs


i feel the same way. i also breed fish and the females must be thrown away , so some go into the worm bin , some into the compost can , some get fed back to the fish an the rest get thrown out in the outside compost. (i know your not supposed to put meat or dairies in the bins , but i use EVERYTHING, yea too much meat or dairies will stink , and oils can cause probs , but if you limit those things , your bin will eat the funk off them.)

i put a whole bag of bad onions in my bin a while back and it stunk for a week or two , but thats the worst thing thats ever happened to my bin. 

i been working on my soil for 3 or 4 years now. (building my own) and i just FINALLY got to where i can plant and use only water till the end.  pretty happy about that one. 





have any of you guys ever seen root porn that looked so good , that it looked fake ? i posted a couple pics on here a couple years ago that were amaZing! (Rrog , i think you were around...)

reason i ask is because i have never seen anything like it again , and just because i am me i want to know what caused that. its not that big of deal , but its one of those things that really bothers me because i want to see it again , even though the plants are healthier now, then they was with those wild roots. 

i mean the whole pot , top to bottom was solid white/clear and the holes in the bottoms had 3 or 4" of roots growing out in a mass as big as the hole, and they was not sitting in anything ...... just the ground/table. 

i'll try to dig up the pics, and maybe get an opinion or two as to why it did that. (it was 4 or 5 pots like that , not just one.)



Have a great day guys  soil


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## Rrog (Mar 26, 2012)

I don't recall your root pron, but I personally haven't seen a root ball in a while. I let the microbes eat them. I keep watering the herd (now I plant clover on top to fix Nitrogen and keep the AM Fungi network in tact). I don't disturb the soil.


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## wyteboi (Mar 26, 2012)

Rrog said:


> I don't recall your root pron, but I personally haven't seen a root ball in a while. I let the microbes eat them. I keep watering the herd (now I plant clover on top to fix Nitrogen and keep the AM Fungi network in tact). I don't disturb the soil.


yea i dont disturb anything myself , but a couple years ago when this happened , the roots were coming out the holes so thick , i had to pull one out to look at it. (the plant forced me , i had no choice) 




Rrog said:


> now I plant clover on top to fix Nitrogen and keep the AM Fungi network in tact


your not talking "mulch" are you ? also , is this in pots or ground ?

i use mulch (trimmings, peat, ect...) to keep the top of the pot as full of life as the bottom , but if your not using mulch , what are you useing as a "cover" ? that does sound a bit better then just mulch. 



soil


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## Rrog (Mar 26, 2012)

I sew clover seeds on the top of the MJ buckets. Microclover is the best size but hard to find. Clover is just one of many helpful companion plants. Sometimes called a Living Mulch


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## PakaloloHui (Mar 26, 2012)

at what stage of the MJ plant growth do you sow the clover seeds?


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## Rrog (Mar 26, 2012)

Really, any time is fine. I planted the clover while the micro-herd was in full swing taking care of a couple of male plants. I didn't chop the males until the clover was established. That way there's no time when active roots are not present in the soil. If there are no active roots, the AM fungus will die off, leaving spore for the next time roots show up. So these pails have nothing but clover, and the undisturbed soil will receive MJ seeds soon.

After I plant the seeds, I'll leave the clover, assuming it's not too overgrown. Again, MicroClover is more desirable than what I have


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## Da Almighty Jew (Mar 26, 2012)

i agree teamin with microbes is a great book. I just want to learn more so i was wondering if there were more books out there you guys know of.

I also use plant trimmings as my mulch for cannabis. what i do actually is put cut up fan leaves and such into my brew. let that bubble with everything else a couple days. and just water it onto my soil. I was always worried about putting dead leaves on my soil but now that i know it acts as a mulch, food for microbes... Its definetly a good idea.


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## Rrog (Mar 26, 2012)

Almighty, that book is such a great summary that before I suggested another book, I'd go back and re-read Teaming again. That's what I'm doing and I took a lot of notes. What's cool about his thread is the question and answer orientation is started with. What would be great is if you had a question or were vague on a concept. Then we could all bat it around.


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## harmayanigrengel (Mar 27, 2012)

More and more compost tea brewers are on the marker. These range from small, 5- to 20-gallon systems that can easily make enough tea to take care of a few acres (about 1.2 hectares) to commercial brewers capable of producing up to a thousand gallons or more of tea per brew. The Internet is a good place to look for compost tea brewers and compare them. Manufacturers should be able to show tests demonstrating that their machines can extract viable populations of fungi as well as bacteria. Only biological test will tell you the numbers. Insist on seeing one, and if they don't have one, don't buy the machine. You can also make an actively aerated compost tea brewer. It is very easy and our suggestions for those just starting with teas. All you need is one of those ubiquitous five-gallon plastic buckets; add to this an aquarium air pump (the biggest you can afford) and air stone, and about 4 feet (1.2 meters) of plastic tubing to use with it. The better pumps have two air outlets; if you cannot get a double-outlet pump, use at least two single outlet pumps. Sufficient aeration is critical. Once your system is operation, you will know if you have enough air. If the tea smells good, things are fine. If it starts to smell bad, the tea is going anaerobic. We learned in physics that the smaller the bubbles, the higher the surface to air ratio and thus more air exchange with the water, but when bubbles get too small, under 1 millimeter, they can cut up microbes. Aquarium air stones work well as long as you remember to keep them (and the plastic tubing that attaches them to the pump) clean.


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## blueJ (Mar 27, 2012)

Nice quote there from Teaming With Microbes


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## Rrog (Mar 27, 2012)

I see many of his posts look like ripped quotes


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## wyteboi (Mar 27, 2012)

after dealing with fish for all these years , then adding teas into my mess , i have learned that they just dont make air pumps like they used to. i've got one late 80's pump left that still barely works , i've got 10, 2005 or newer pumps in the junk pile. (and dozens already thrown away) 
If your looking for a air pump for teas or anything else i cannot recommend ANY pump with a diaphram in it. Over the years , they have made the parts so much cheaper (on purpose of course) that they just dry rot within a matter of a year or two. I finally got one with a piston that will not go out for years. (45 bucks off ebay , and i believe its 53 liters or mililiters per minute.)

plus its commercial grade so it will run multiple buckets, tea brewers, fish tanks, ect... the downside for some will be that it is loud but i am very used to loud. 


im babblin again .... i'll clear my head of all the pot cells and we'll make this thread interesting. 




soil


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## Rrog (Mar 28, 2012)

I agree. Piston is loud but dependable. I have two and built thick MDF boxes for them.


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## funkybud (Apr 1, 2012)

here's a great compost tea brewer:http://extension.oregonstate.edu/lane/horticulture/documents/25gallonRubbermaidbrewerplans_2_.pdf i use a 2.5 bushel tub to brew in. works great!


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## Beeb Beebman (Apr 1, 2012)

This is an amazing thread all the way through. I've learned so much!! Let's keep this going..


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## trichome fiend (Apr 2, 2012)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> i agree teamin with microbes is a great book. I just want to learn more so i was wondering if there were more books out there you guys know of.


...here --> http://www.amazon.com/Worms-Eat-Garbage-Mary-Appelhof/dp/0942256107#_

...and anything written by Ruth Stout!


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## PakaloloHui (Apr 2, 2012)

This was posted yesterday on another thread.

Teaming with Microbes is a great buy...also check out "The Compost Tea Brewing Manuel, 5th Edition" by Elaine Ingham...this you can buy for $300 on Amazon or download the pdf @ http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=the compost tea brewing manuel&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CF8QFjAE&url=http%3A%2 F%2Flivingsoilsp2011.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F 05%2Fbrew-manual-04-28-08.pdf&ei=p8J1T6y2L8KZiQKxhLWoDg&usg=AFQjCNGeZMIrf pqs5UKx1_x235K2baTpQw&cad=rja

Elaine Ingham is the guru on compost teas!


I chose the google pdf download for free.


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## Beeb Beebman (Apr 3, 2012)

PakaloloHui said:


> This was posted yesterday on another thread.
> 
> Teaming with Microbes is a great buy...also check out "The Compost Tea Brewing Manuel, 5th Edition" by Elaine Ingham...this you can buy for $300 on Amazon or download the pdf @ http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=the compost tea brewing manuel&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CF8QFjAE&url=http%3A%2 F%2Flivingsoilsp2011.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F 05%2Fbrew-manual-04-28-08.pdf&ei=p8J1T6y2L8KZiQKxhLWoDg&usg=AFQjCNGeZMIrf pqs5UKx1_x235K2baTpQw&cad=rja
> 
> ...


Wow! Thanks alot for those links!! I had my nose in that tea manual for most of the day! Thanks again! Starting a batch of tea tomorrow and I can't wait after reading this thread.


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## Rrog (Apr 6, 2012)

I highly recommend planting clover as a companion plant. It's working well for me.


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## Rrog (Apr 6, 2012)

PakaloloHui said:


> Elaine Ingham is the guru on compost teas!


She gets a lot of shit elsewhere on the net. Not sure why. Bickering amongst professionals, I gather.

Teas are great. Building a big 15 gallon brewer right now.


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## trichome fiend (Apr 7, 2012)

"Secrets of the Soil", and "The Secret Life of Plants" by Peter Thompkins and Christopher Bird


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## trichome fiend (Apr 8, 2012)

[youtube]BXGqJbFZzCo&feature[/youtube]


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## Rrog (Apr 8, 2012)

ACT is some kinda great stuff.


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## trichmasta (Apr 8, 2012)

I use ACT's every feeding non diluted all the way to week 5 of flower, then take a break and innoculate/brew once a week for 6-7. Just added - Wonder Worm- ewc to my tea line up; along with honey es, and kelp meal. I <3 my soil food web!!


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## trichmasta (Apr 9, 2012)

What's everyone using for a kelp meal source in their tea's?


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## Rrog (Apr 9, 2012)

Roots Organic Extreme Serene is one I've read about.

From MicrobeOrganics.com: _*kelp meal - 0.25% max. (0.5 liter or 500 ml), (17 ounces US), (0.5 quart US), (2 plus cups) 
NOTE: This is a maximum amount of kelp and you can experiment using less. This is using regular grade kelp meal for livestock. If you have soluble kelp, I recommend using smaller amounts. Sometimes kelp meal can initially delay bacterial multiplication._


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## PakaloloHui (Apr 9, 2012)

trichmasta said:


> What's everyone using for a kelp meal source in their tea's?


Cytoplus by Bioag 

40%humic acid, 7 micronutrients, plus seaweed. Soluble Potash 7.5% 
1/2 tsp. per gallon per instructions for soil; 1/4 - 1/3 tsp. per gallon for hydro or foliar spray.

or 

Maxicrop Soluble Powder (1 - 0 - 4) 
1 tsp. per gallon

Both work great for what you need them for.


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## wyteboi (Apr 10, 2012)

trichmasta said:


> What's everyone using for a kelp meal source in their tea's?


i use kelp meal from maine. , i also got some liquid karma layin around that i did not buy , so im usin that right now. 




Thanks for that book for free ! thats an amazing find. i have read bit an pieces of that book forever , its nice to have the whole thang at my hands. +rep bigtime.





soil


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## Rrog (Apr 10, 2012)

If you like this thread, you should check out MicrobeOrganics.com


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## PakaloloHui (Apr 10, 2012)

Rrog said:


> If you like this thread, you should check out MicrobeOrganics.com


That site has been on my favorites bar for several years.


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## Rrog (Apr 10, 2012)

I'd like to get a microscope from that site


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## Kb's seeds (Apr 10, 2012)

excellent thread!!!! really nice to see a thread on compost teas im tired of reading about everyone using synthetic nutes, iz not the way to go iz not natural!! im currently trying out a new compost tea product on the market, its called malibu's compost bu's brews tea bags, its actually one of the better compost tea products ive seen on the market, ever since organics alive split into vermitea i havent really like their products, ive been running the bu's brew on a side by side trial with my compost teas, like i said pretty good product, some of the other products are there are ridiculously expensive, like the vortex brewer products, ive seen the earth tonic being sold for 50bucks a bag!!!! WTF!!! now if thas not makin money off of growers i dont know what is, u can buy products for ur teas in bulk and cut ur cost down by 90%, i mean the extreme gardening compost tea brews are 50 a bag too, i paid 10 bucks for a bag of bu's brew and it would easily compete with other more expensive tea products, so if ur new to makin teas and jus wanna buy the pre made tea bags to brew shop around before buying name brand cause its starting to get like what advanced nutes did, released essiantlly the same products over and over and charged more for them, i mean why is their powder myco cheaper than the voodoo juice?? its alot cheaper to buy bulk ingredients for ur teas any good hydro store should have a section of bulk nutes and its alota fun when u start brewing ur own teas, espcially when u start ur own home worm farm and learn the different things u can feed them, like adding cannalope rinds or potato skins etc. etc. to ur worm bin, its amazing how u can use table scraps to feed ur worms and get excellent castings, nature is fukin awesome, i wont ever buy castings again unless i have to the difference between bagged castings and fresh castings is amazing, have fun brewin those teas folks but remeber its tea for ur plant so if u get thirsty go buy a arizona ice tea lol great thread i enjoyed reading it very much, and gota give props for posting a link to the great book teaming with microbes, i think anyone who wants to garden organically should read that book


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## wyteboi (Apr 10, 2012)

Kb's seeds said:


> i wont ever buy castings again unless i have to the difference between bagged castings and fresh castings is amazing,


95% of the time you are correct kb , most folks are in it for the money so they add up to 75% filler in them bags off wood chips ...i mean castings. i would say a good seller will add 25 to 35% filler which is much better but its not homemade goodness. 100% is the way to go PLUS you know exactly what the castings are made of.

the most important part of any tea is the quality of the compost that goes in the tea. freshness is the key because the majority of the microbes an fungus are still exploding with life.



soil


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## Kb's seeds (Apr 11, 2012)

ya its amazing if u apply the water bottle test to store bought castings the amount of filler tha is added, can really piss u off sometimes when u realize u jus bought a bunch of sand and wood chips


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## organicflames (Apr 11, 2012)

Hey KB, What do you mean by the water bottle test?
I agree with those who stated that fresh castings sre much better. My fresh castings always produce a better tea and always produce a better topdress. They are literally crawling with life, worms, worm cocoons, springtails, soil mites, etc. all good things in an organic, all-natural container.


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## Rrog (Apr 11, 2012)

Welcome to the forum! Sounds like you are right into the organic. That's great!


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## wyteboi (Apr 12, 2012)

Rrog said:


> Welcome to the forum! Sounds like you are right into the organic. That's great!


i'll double that ! 

welcome ......
soil


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## wyteboi (Apr 12, 2012)

organicflames said:


> Hey KB, What do you mean by the water bottle test?
> I agree with those who stated that fresh castings sre much better. My fresh castings always produce a better tea and always produce a better topdress. They are literally crawling with life, worms, worm cocoons, springtails, soil mites, etc. all good things in an organic, all-natural container.


i was kinda wondering about the bottle test myself ? i guess if you was to put some in a bottle of water you would see all the wood chips ? i guess the wood chips an maybe even the peat moss will float as to where poop will not. not sure?



soil


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## Kb's seeds (Apr 12, 2012)

wyteboi u got it right, u add sum of ur store bought castings to a water bottle and u can see the fillers, wood chips will float, sand will sink quicker than castings, here is the test i do with store bought castings

use a EMPTY 20 oz. water bottle, and 3oz.of castings into bottle, fill bottle 3/4 full with water, shake hella good for 3min. let it sit for a half hour, go back to check it and see what floating, if there are grass or weed seeds (not the good kind) in the castings they will be floating along with any other unconsumed junk, sand will be first to settle on bottom, u should be able to see sediment layers (i.e. whatever is sitting on bottom would be considered the bottom layer) check and see what the colors of the layers are, the darker the color the more pure castings are in the product, try it out with a couple different store bought castings ul see the difference


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## trichmasta (Apr 13, 2012)

Thought i'd share my current flower tea

*Aerate and liven water for 24 hours prior to brewing*
*brew for 24-30 hours*

1/2 cup/gal Wonder Worm EWC
1-2 tsp/gal Honey ES
1/3 tsp/gal soluble Seaweed
1 quart/gal Alaska Humisoil


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## wyteboi (Apr 17, 2012)

trichmasta said:


> Thought i'd share my current flower tea
> 
> *Aerate and liven water for 24 hours prior to brewing*
> *brew for 24-30 hours*
> ...


that is a BEAUTIFUL tea masta! thats an ideal tea to me. 





soil


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## trichmasta (Apr 17, 2012)

thanks!! It truly was a bomb brew...ladies LOVED it. The only thing that i felt i was missing, was some Alaska Humisoil at 1/2 quart/gal. ACT & Soil <3


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## wyteboi (Apr 17, 2012)

trichmasta said:


> The only thing that i felt i was missing, was some Alaska Humisoil at 1/2 quart/gal.


you listed it.....



trichmasta said:


> Thought i'd share my current flower tea
> 
> *Aerate and liven water for 24 hours prior to brewing*
> *brew for 24-30 hours*
> ...



??


soil


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## trichmasta (Apr 17, 2012)

ooh yeah...lol! Coffee hasn't kicked in regardless this is a killer brew that i will run every feeding till week 3, then every other till week 6.


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## wyteboi (Apr 17, 2012)

trichmasta said:


> ooh yeah...lol! Coffee hasn't kicked in regardless this is a killer brew that i will run every feeding till week 3, then every other till week 6.


i'd rock that mix until week 8 of bloom. it would be real hard to go wrong with that tea in any good soil. maybe lighten it up a lil by using 2 gal instead of one. 
and if you got PLENTY of air it wont hurt to brew for longer , just add more castings every 3 or 4 days, and dont go no more then a couple weeks without cleaning out the brewer real good.



soil


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## Rrog (Apr 17, 2012)

wyteboi you are quite the tea brewer! I love it!

I have this fascination with microbes, these days. I make yogurt, I feed my dog a completely raw diet, I eat raw eggs by the dozen. Everyday. I was sick 15 years ago. We're supposed to work with them in the soil, our animals and ourselves.


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## puppasmurf (Apr 19, 2012)

Hey mate nice thread im studying horticulture production and this shit is what im learning at the moment so ive got a good grasp on what ur posting about....
Now onto my MJ planties......What do they prefer a Bacteria or fungal dominated tea??

I could ask my teacher.......nah ill ask you


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## Rrog (Apr 19, 2012)

Cannabis likes bacterially dominated soils. The plant will tailor its root exudates to customize the microlife population the way it wants. It likes certain bacteria around so it secretes bacterially favorable food. Certainly EM fungi are all a part of this web, but the bacterially dominant soil that the cannabis creates.


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## PakaloloHui (Apr 19, 2012)

Rrog said:


> Cannabis likes bacterially dominated soils. The plant will tailor its root exudates to customize the microlife population the way it wants. It likes certain bacteria around so it secretes bacterially favorable food. Certainly EM fungi are all a part of this web, but the bacterially dominant soil that the cannabis creates.


I believe you may have that wrong. MJ likes Fungal Dominant soils and tea's, hence the acidic growing environment. Bacteria likes High pH, Fungi likes Low pH. When making and brewing our tea's, they should be Fungal Dominant. We have to work hard to build the fungi and keep it populated, it takes longer to grow than Bacteria, which explodes in a tea or multiplies very rapidly. When your pH is high you can be sure the Bacteria has out performed the fungi and you need to populate.

You have to keep the balance, but fungal dominant tea's and soil/compost is what we are after, to keep the bacteria in check, and to keep the soil in prime working range for MJ.

If you notice in most of the compost tea recipe's, people use a fungal dominant compost. People grow Mold with rice or oatmeal on their compost before making a tea.

Sure, if I saw my pH drop way low in my soil I would brew a Bacterial tea to raise the pH in the soil.


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## trichome fiend (Apr 19, 2012)

...from the book, "Teaming With Microbes"
2) Most vegetables, annuals, and grasses prefer their nitrogen in nitrate form and do best in bacterially dominated soils.

*...cannabis is an annual plant.
*

...from Wiki----> *Cannabis sativa* is an annual herbaceous plant in the Cannabaceae family.


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## blueJ (Apr 19, 2012)

I made the same assumption above based on that book & it makes sense. Perennials and trees prefer fungal dominant soils as they create longterm relationships with fungi, if i were planning on keeping moms for years, then i would feed at least 70% fungi teas, for our quick, typical, 90 day veg/flower cycle, i like to inoculate early with mykes at transplants & some fungi dominant teas early veg, then keep it all bacterial, the fungi are in place and doing their thing by a couple weeks into flower...... for fungi dominant i use vermiblend & kelp, bacteria i use EWC

...... at least that's what i like to think, not being all scientific about it 'n all  and it works for me


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## Rrog (Apr 19, 2012)

This has become my favorite thread on this forum.


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## Rrog (Apr 19, 2012)

PakaloloHui said:


> We have to work hard to build the fungi and keep it populated,..l.


For sure there is a balance that the plant is looking for with fungal / bacterial ratios. As well there is a great advantage to re-using the soil without disturbing the soil. After 2-3 plants cycle through the soil (being amended through top dressings and teas) the now mature soil will take on quite a different textural quality. The fungus has really started to define the texture and porosity of the soil. 

This is what I'm shooting for now. My only other point is the plant is in much greater control than you give it credit for. It's pretty capable of creating the bacterial / fungal associations that it wants.


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## trichome fiend (Apr 22, 2012)

... my no-till veggie garden 
... *noone* around here has broccoli this size at this time of the year!


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## Rrog (Apr 22, 2012)

That is so fucking cool!!! That's all no-till?? Did you find any differences? Sorry for all the questions. I'm impressed!


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## mikeharold (Apr 22, 2012)

I have a question about water and watering in my veggie garden using tea. Out in the garden we just use the city tap water for watering. When I brew my tea I aerate the water for a while, usually a few hours, to remove the chlorine before brewing. My question is, is it alright to be watering the garden with straight tap water or is the chlorine killing off the micro life as I water? With my MJ plants I use RO water so it's a non issue there, but I was just thinking about this today. I was thinking I could get a water barrel and fill it up, aerate it with a pump and stone, and use a sump pump to water if it's an issue. Maybe I'm thinking a little too deep into it, but am curious. Also if dilluting the tea, I'm assuming the water should be dechlorinated as well, yes? I would love to here your thoughts on this. Thanks.

Oh, BTW, that broccoli looks fantastic!


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## Rrog (Apr 22, 2012)

You likely have chloramine, which needs to be removed with a compound like molasses


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## PakaloloHui (Apr 22, 2012)

They make special filters to filter out the chloramine, also vitamin c works. 

Yeah, you were right on the soil dominance Rrog, I always get it mixed up.
I do concentrate on building my fungi population though in the begining.


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## mikeharold (Apr 22, 2012)

I use molasses in the tea, but obviously no from the tap...

Does chloramine evaporate out like chlorine as well or does it need to be physically removed from the water if not treat with say molasses? Looks like I may start looking for a water barrel.


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## PakaloloHui (Apr 22, 2012)

Chloramine does not evaporate quickly enough for our use. It may take months. Never heard how molasses works to rid of it. 

From wikipedia:

Removing chloramine from water Chloramine can be removed from tap water by treatment with superchlorination (10 ppm or more of free chlorine, such as from a dose of sodium hypochlorite bleach or pool sanitizer) while maintaining a pH of about 7 (such as from a dose of hydrochloric acid). Hypochlorous acid from the free chlorine strips the ammonia from the chloramine, and the ammonia outgasses from the surface of the bulk water. This process takes about 24 hours for normal tap water concentrations of a few ppm of chloramine. Residual free chlorine can then be removed by exposure to bright sunlight for about 4 hours.
Boiling the water for 20 minutes will remove chloramine and ammonia. Additionally, many foods and drinks rapidly neutralize chloramine without the necessity of boiling (e.g., tea, coffee, chicken stock, orange juice, etc.). SFPUC determined that 1000 mg of Vitamin C (tablets purchased in a grocery store, crushed and mixed in with the bath water) remove chloramine completely in a medium size bathtub without significantly depressing pH. Shower attachments containing Vitamin C can be purchased on the Internet, as well as effervescent Vitamin C bath tablets. [SUP][12][/SUP]


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## trichome fiend (Apr 22, 2012)

Rrog said:


> That is so fucking cool!!! That's all no-till?? Did you find any differences? Sorry for all the questions. I'm impressed!


...thankx man! ...all no-till bro...I have noticed a *HUGE* difference!!! ...my brother bought like 100 broccoli plants for $20 locally, gave me the smallest 50...we planted at the same time but he done the traditional tilling and planting on hills......I've had heads on my broccoli for over 2/3 weeks now and he has just started to see dime sized heads on his.... we're already eating the broccoli from the no-till garden while his are still babbies  



mikeharold said:


> My question is, is it alright to be watering the garden with straight tap water or is the chlorine killing off the micro life as I water?
> Oh, BTW, that broccoli looks fantastic!


...thankx...bro, do NOT use tap water straight from the tap....you are correct, you are killing off the soil food web when you expose the web to chlorine, salts, or perservatives (rule # 12-13)


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## Rrog (Apr 22, 2012)

What a great testimonial. I'm hoping for a little of that with the MJ


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## Redbird1223 (Apr 22, 2012)

Just brewed my first tea.

Handful of worm gold plus EWC
Handful of living Alaska humisoil
Handful of alfalfa meal 2-0-0
Handful of kelp meal 0-0-1.5
Handful of plant only homemade compost
and roughly 1/2 tbs of blackstrap molasses 

Added to 4.5 gal of previously de-chlorinated tap water and brewed for 36-48 hours and diluted with another 4.5 gal of unchlorinated tap water


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## Redbird1223 (Apr 22, 2012)

I was just guessing between what I've read and what I have. Would you guys consider this a good tea? Veg tea, flower tea, whole cycle tea? Every feeding, once a week? Just fed it to some jilly bean transplants, 1 inside(3 gal), 1 out (10 gal), I'm exited to see the results throughout the grow


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## puppasmurf (Apr 23, 2012)

Redbird1223 said:


> Just brewed my first tea.
> 
> Handful of worm gold plus EWC
> Handful of living Alaska humisoil
> ...


Im guessing most people on here doing Oganics for their MJ plants, why are we adding in fungal food I.e Kelp meal? Or am i wrong missing something?


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## Dank Raptor (Apr 24, 2012)

puppasmurf said:


> Im guessing most people on here doing Oganics for their MJ plants, why are we adding in fungal food I.e Kelp meal? Or am i wrong missing something?


Because AM fungi are responsible for up to 80% of a plants phosphorus uptake. Kelp meal is also good because of the many micronutrients it has. You are right though. Mj prefers bacterially dominated soil and tea. However it is very benefecial to make some fungal dominant brews during flower, just make sure you balance out your microbes with a bacterial tea soon after. The one u posted looks like a good recipe.


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## puppasmurf (Apr 24, 2012)

Im just trying to wrap my head around diff teas at diff times ...learning slowly... plus the foods we got over here in aus i dont know if theyre the same as ull have over there


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## puppasmurf (Apr 24, 2012)

Ok tell me str8 if im being lazy and needa do more reading.

Well now i know MJ are bacteria dom and also do like some fungal brews but what grow periods do u add these brews. Are people watering these plants like top fed coco hydro - every day nearly? or do people use there brews once a week then use just plain O'l water? 

Should I make two compost one being Bacteria and One for fungi? 

Ive got a worm farm atm is going well bit over wet atm but anohter month or two it will be solid vermicost. Does my worm farm need to be either fungal or bacteria dominated? Or are they what they are high in nutrients?

If anyone here is from Aus mind sharing some recipes so i can get an idea and research hwy ur doing it with what uve got.

Thanks puppa


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## blueJ (Apr 24, 2012)

I wouldn't say lazy necesarily lol, but some reading would definitely help out in understanding what is going on in the soil/teas & why we use them. Your worm bin for example, there is no fungi in earth worm castings as it is all bacteria in the worm that does the work and come out in the castings. Fungi tea you'd make with our regular compost, store bought compost, or some forest soil (ideally you'd grow some fungi too like with moist oats in a tupperware for a week). Start with a book like Teaming With Microbes, and i'm sure there's plenty of links in here to websites to do some research in.

Your tea recipe could be as simple as:

5 gal water with:
handfull of EWC or compost
20 to 30ml molasses
small scoop of kelp meal or 30ml liquid kelp

I mix all my biocanna nutes into my teas and let them bubble with it all


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## Rrog (Apr 24, 2012)

blueJ said:


> I mix all my biocanna nutes...


Gasp! This is a Soil Web thread!


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## blueJ (Apr 24, 2012)

Rrog said:


> Gasp! This is a Soil Web thread!


Ooops!!!  I'm working towards no bottle nutes, but damnit the ladies love it!

That brings up a question though! Those that are strictly soil food web - no bottled products, what's your soil mix and whats your tea schedule? I'm definitely headed in that direction but it's like kicking hard liquor! And i've been doing the plant based thing, which started out revolving around biocanna


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## Rrog (Apr 24, 2012)

blueJ (like the name, btw), this is great news! There are many good soil recipes. I'm doing SuperSoil right now, and will be re-planting in it without tilling, pulling up root balls, etc. No soil disturbance. 

Teas are definitely a good thing, but an occasional dose is all that is required We have to keep in mind that the inoculated microbes will continue to propagate, often under the direct control of the plant. The plant will be choosy as to what it feeds and keeps around and what it doesn't feed.

You will find that the weed is better and MUCH cheaper doing amended soil vs. bottled ferts (organic or otherwise). If you'd like other soil options, just holler. We'd love to help you


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## trichome fiend (Apr 24, 2012)

puppasmurf said:


> Ok tell me str8 if im being lazy and needa do more reading.
> 
> Well now i know MJ are bacteria dom and also do like some fungal brews but what grow periods do u add these brews. Are people watering these plants like top fed coco hydro - every day nearly? or do people use there brews once a week then use just plain O'l water?
> 
> ...



...growing indoors, I prefer to have all the goodies already in the soil....only water is needed.
...I typically veg clones in small pots of quility soil, giving water only, then transplant into an adequate sized pot with quility soil to flower in....water only throughout the life of the plant....it's really that simple. 
...however, your plants will do great with a steady soil drench of ewc and molasses if you do not want to transplant, from my experience...it's hard to over do it with teas but it isn't necessary to go crazy with it.


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## Dank Raptor (Apr 24, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Start with a book like Teaming With Microbes


Great advice. I love that book.


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## blueJ (Apr 24, 2012)

Rrog said:


> blueJ (like the name, btw), this is great news! There are many good soil recipes. I'm doing SuperSoil right now, and will be re-planting in it without tilling, pulling up root balls, etc. No soil disturbance.
> 
> Teas are definitely a good thing, but an occasional dose is all that is required We have to keep in mind that the inoculated microbes will continue to propagate, often under the direct control of the plant. The plant will be choosy as to what it feeds and keeps around and what it doesn't feed.
> 
> You will find that the weed is better and MUCH cheaper doing amended soil vs. bottled ferts (organic or otherwise). If you'd like other soil options, just holler. We'd love to help you


My goal has been a no-till scenario, either custom made beds or the easy way out - 150gal smartpot. This catches my eye "...but an occasional dose is all that is required." I feel (or felt) like i ammend pretty heavily, and without heavy biocanna feedings i'm getting yellowing by midflower (bottom to top) and lower yields........

....let me read through this thread real good before i ask any questions, as i have a few for you  But like i said, growth is explosive now that my feedings have been ACT based! But i'd like to not go through so much $$ with biocanna! but at the same time i'd like to avoid using bone/blood meal


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## Rrog (Apr 24, 2012)

You avoid blood and bone for vegan reasons? There are other materials that can be used.

My best grows have been with no bottled ferts at all. And I have no pests, either


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## blueJ (Apr 24, 2012)

Yes.

I have had years of success with a real basic soil mix, any old bag of organic and then amended with bone/blood/lime and fed with a mix of pureblend, earth juice, & FF big bloom (& molasses).

I've gone the plant-based route and am easily 99% "veganic" for better or worse 

Here's the mix and the ladies love it, it's my own and been a year in the making, pics tonight

1 bag coconot
1 bag roots organic or ednas organic or Happy frog or (_____)
1 bag vermiblend
1/2 bag EWC
some perlite (prefer rice hulls but having trouble sourcing locally)

1 cup each of
vegan mix, kelp, alfalfa, dolomite lime

1/2 cup each of
neem seed meal, azomite, greensand

1/4 cup of
granular humic, epsom salt

I probably forgot an amendment or two  and my actual measurements are rarely precise hehe

Then i mix it 50/50 at least with already used soil of the same mix


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 24, 2012)

blueJ said:


> My goal has been a no-till scenario, either custom made beds or the easy way out - 150gal smartpot. This catches my eye "...but an occasional dose is all that is required." I feel (or felt) like i ammend pretty heavily, and without heavy biocanna feedings i'm getting yellowing by midflower (bottom to top) and lower yields........
> 
> ....let me read through this thread real good before i ask any questions, as i have a few for you  But like i said, growth is explosive now that my feedings have been ACT based! But i'd like to not go through so much $$ with biocanna! but at the same time i'd like to avoid using bone/blood meal


Hmmm... now wheels are turning in my head. I've been working towards my own water only soil mix for quite some time now, it's not quite there yet, but always improving. I've been looking into the whole "no-till" method a lot lately, and can't believe I've never considered using one gigantic Smart Pot for a shared bed grow. I'm doing this. Thanks.


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## Rrog (Apr 24, 2012)

The SuperSoil is a water-only deal, which is cool, but to do no-till, you'll have to top dress the soil with amendments (EWC, Compost, ACT) as you go to replenish gradually and evenly. So it's not a water-only. 

I'm starting with SuperSoil, and have amended it and will continue to amend after I plant seeds in it next month. Clover stays the whole time. I'll just chop the plant at the base.


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## blueJ (Apr 24, 2012)

Good deal wolverine! there is a thread with pics of a no-till smart pot bed in a tent, good results, it's over on icmag. 

Rrog, that's what i was thinking, no till with continual topdressing for slow release, which is fine in that scenario, and extra topdress @ the end of each cycle. I need to just do it, i think i'll do the XXXL smartpot method for now, hopefully in the next couple months..... yea clover, i wanna do the living mulch too. Also want to do comfrey and nettle teas but am having trouble sourcing both, i have lots of property but @ high elevation so i only have a few months a year....my corn only got a foot tall last year LOL but the strawberries are coming back right now


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## Rrog (Apr 24, 2012)

I'd love to source comfrey, nettles etc. also. I should buy a field guide, I guess. Fermented vegetable extracts... Excellent stuff. And how much does that cost? Zero?


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## puppasmurf (Apr 24, 2012)

blueJ said:


> I wouldn't say lazy necesarily lol, but some reading would definitely help out in understanding what is going on in the soil/teas & why we use them. Your worm bin for example, there is no fungi in earth worm castings as it is all bacteria in the worm that does the work and come out in the castings. Fungi tea you'd make with our regular compost, store bought compost, or some forest soil (ideally you'd grow some fungi too like with moist oats in a tupperware for a week). Start with a book like Teaming With Microbes, and i'm sure there's plenty of links in here to websites to do some research in.
> 
> Your tea recipe could be as simple as:
> 
> ...


Cheers mate. I am currently studying soil health at my local Tafe so im learning all of this there plus this book is a godsend. I asked my teacher for some Tea recipe advice and he said basically im here for soil not teas. (even though i knew nothing about teas until he mentioned and talked about it in class -.- )



trichome fiend said:


> ...growing indoors, I prefer to have all the goodies already in the soil....only water is needed.
> ...I typically veg clones in small pots of quility soil, giving water only, then transplant into an adequate sized pot with quility soil to flower in....water only throughout the life of the plant....it's really that simple.
> ...however, your plants will do great with a steady soil drench of ewc and molasses if you do not want to transplant, from my experience...it's hard to over do it with teas but it isn't necessary to go crazy with it.


Ok cool, that's what i thought. Now creating my own good soil to begin with is just another challenge of mine i guess i can go buy some bagged soil but i don't know what bags of soil at our local bunnings is good. As they have so many varieties. Might just go to a landscaping joint and buy from them.


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## puppasmurf (Apr 25, 2012)

Hey another question: Soild biology does take its time to build and over time a garden can b fully established with gr8 soil biology. But when it comes to my POTs that last twelve week how effective is this still with the soil only lasting 12 weeks ?


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## trichome fiend (Apr 25, 2012)

puppasmurf said:


> Hey another question: Soild biology does take its time to build and over time a garden can b fully established with gr8 soil biology. But when it comes to my POTs that last twelve week how effective is this still with the soil only lasting 12 weeks ?


...12 weeks is a long time without a transplant, tea, or top layering.....in a situation like that I wouldn't want to transplant in mid flower, so I would top layer an inch or so of ewc along with a soil drench every couple weeks, starting around week 4-5 of flowering.


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## Rrog (Apr 25, 2012)

Great answer TF


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 25, 2012)

Rrog said:


> The SuperSoil is a water-only deal, which is cool, but to do no-till, you'll have to top dress the soil with amendments (EWC, Compost, ACT) as you go to replenish gradually and evenly. So it's not a water-only.
> 
> I'm starting with SuperSoil, and have amended it and will continue to amend after I plant seeds in it next month. Clover stays the whole time. I'll just chop the plant at the base.


By "water only", I mean no bottled nutrients...


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## Rrog (Apr 25, 2012)

Ah! OK. Thanks for the clarification. 

BTW, we don't bring it up much, but there's huge value in biochar. Like the spent activated carbon from air filters. I used a lot this time.


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## Redbird1223 (Apr 25, 2012)

What does biochar do? How do we use it properly? Most of us have filters, I love to recycle so I'm curious


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## Rrog (Apr 25, 2012)

The Biochar works for odor filtration because of the incredible surface area with all hose nooks and crannies. Those same nooks and crannies are available as condos for bacteria. Really works well to promote the microlife. I added about 2 cups of spent carbon in my 7 gallon pails when initially mixed.


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## PakaloloHui (Apr 25, 2012)

Aeration and carbon content for the soil.


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## Kalyx (Apr 28, 2012)

> Redbird1223What does biochar do? How do we use it properly? Most of us have filters, I love to recycle so I'm curious​


This link answered all my questions and more. It also refers to Terra Preta which is how the ancient central and south american cultures kept agriculture going in the nutrient poor jungle soils, and I think where the idea of Biochar regenerated soils comes from.

http://biochar.pbworks.com/w/page/9748043/FrontPage


Also, I posted this side by side result in the other AACT forum and then read this one and its relevant here too. No one has answered my tea dilution and foliar ?s yet over there. Here goes...


I got started on this cause someone was asking if anyone ever ran any roots brand soil, and these ladies loved their 707 mix! This side by side test was the second to last run I did before switching to try out Rize Up style veganic grows for the utmost quality claims, which involves a lot of beneficial microbes via compost tea (every other watering for me). Anyway...




*This round also in Roots 707 watered every 4-5 days. Both plants are Subs Agent Orange. Left plant was fed GO full line and yielded 130 grams of high quality. Right plant was fed ONLY (~24 hour brewed) compost Tea's based on Vital Earth's chart every other watering(just not using all THEIR products)(yes, i did use that much guano and it did not burn my plant, it loved it actually, I know its not vegan but it was a big learning experience on the power of AACTs for me) and she yielded 138 grams of higher quality, much more complex flavor profile and denser, stickier nugs! AACT for the win!!! The AACT plant didn't look bigger at all but weighed in more, and sure was prettier!
*




*Agent Pics:*
*&#8203;**1)Both plants under 1000w **2)Detail comparison (GO left, AACT right) **3)GO detail **4)AACT detail **5)AACT detail @8wks **6)AACT detail on trim table*




So needless to say I really liked the results of the test. AACT is really great because it gives me, the grower (no one else is more tuned in to them than dad), the ability to make my own custom nutrient. AND this nutrient source is much more affordable as far of cost of inputs compared to relying on bottled products. I like that I can easily obtain some of the ingredients at stores I get my own food from. It is important to source the purest actually organic inputs you can IMO (water too), and local is extra sweet if you can find the right connections (i.e. get inputs for free or trade). TIME is to be considered too; to make the RO amount needed, put together the materials in the sock 24-36 hours before you need it, bubble for one hour THEN feed them, preparing 'santa's beard' in advance to give fungi a head start, etc. But its nothing a good calendar/alarms on the phone can't facilitate! Time is really all we have, I am not opposed to dedicating a bit more to my garden, this wonderful resin does so much for me in return!




My big questions to ask the organic AACT forum are about diluting the tea after brewing and foliar spraying my tea:


1. Who dilutes, if so, what is your approximate dilution ratio and what are your inputs per gallon, if not, how heavy per gallon are your inputs?

2. Why do you think this is/isn't necessary for your roots/media/application techniques? 

3. Do you foliar your teas? If so do you prepare them any differently from ones that you apply to the roots?


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## trichome fiend (Apr 30, 2012)

*Kalyx*
_...I have diluted 1 cup per gallon, I have gave a 50/50, and I have gave them full strength teas...the 50/50 seems to be my favorite ratio, especially in my veggie garden....I'll soil drence and foilar spary with the teas @ 50/50 once per week.....same tea over and over for me now days (compost, ewc, molasses) *k.i.s.s.
*_


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## trichome fiend (Apr 30, 2012)

...here, 9 time world record and 18 state record holder John Evans uses 5 to 1 ratio.

[youtube]BXGqJbFZzCo&feature[/youtube]


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## Da Almighty Jew (May 4, 2012)

I started a thread but i should of asked my question here.

Ok, so i want to make a bone meal, blood meal and guano tea. I have been doing alot of reading and im not quite sure how to prepare this yet. Would letting all the ingredients sit in water together cause some type of bad bacteria to form? I know people recommend to let it sit in water im just wondering if the ingredients are combined and sat in water if that would do any harm? Also im thinking bubbling the ingredients in water for a few days would be better than letting it sit in water, would do you think?

So my plan, bubble some bone,blood,guano for two days. then add tablespoon of molasses and bubble 2 morre days. How does this sound? Is this the correct way to make this type of tea?


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## trichome fiend (May 5, 2012)

*Jew *
...I used the guanos and the sorts into my teas in the past, I no longer do...here's what my little books says about it:

*What AACT is not

*Do not confuse actively aerated compost tea with compost leachates, compost extracts, or manure teas, all of which have been employed by farmers and gardeners for centuries. 
Compost leachate is the liquid that oozes out of compost when it is pressed or when water runs through it and leaches out. Sure, these concoctions get a bit of color and may have some nutrient value, but leachates do little to impart microbial life to your soils: the bacteria and fungi in compost are attached to organic matter and soil particles with biological glues; they don't simply wash off. 
Compost extract is what you get when you soak compost in water for a couple weeks or more. The end result is an anaerobic soup with perhaps a bit of aerobic activity on the surface. The loss of aerobic microbial diversity alone (not to mention the risk of it's containing anaerobic pathogens and alcohols) suggests that compost extracts are not worth the effort. We don't consider it safe or advisable to use them. 
Manure tea, created by suspending a bag of manure in water for several weeks, is also anaerobic. Using manure is asking fro pathogenic problems and, especially under anaerobic conditions, virtually assures the presence of E.coli. We want the beneficial microbes to be working in our soils and to get these; you have to keep things aerobic.


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## Da Almighty Jew (May 5, 2012)

trichome fiend said:


> *Jew *
> ...I used the guanos and the sorts into my teas in the past, I no longer do...here's what my little books says about it:
> 
> *What AACT is not
> ...


I know what i make is not technically an aact its more of a custom made fertilizer equipped with live ammunition  I dont see how bubbling guano without molasses could cause anything to become anaerobic....... Besides after i bubble i then add molasses and bubble more so that should create the bennies to multiply and become aerobic if anything.


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## Da Almighty Jew (May 5, 2012)

i know the new school train of thought is to bubble everything no matter what to keep it aerobic. But alot of this tea making goes into unchartered territory and i think its ignorant to not explore certain tea making practices simply because we dont know exactly how it works or what happens.. Especially when the less explored tea styles could create better results.


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## trichome fiend (May 6, 2012)

...imo, it's best to mix your guanos/manures and blood/bone into your soil, keep it moist and let it sit around for a month or two before you use it...here's something for ya....

....this from ----> http://www.microbeorganics.com/

I'm adding a couple more video clips here; all brews were 2.4% vermicompost with 0.50% black strap molasses and nothing else. [er...except water]

...from his experiments, most other additives can actually inhibit the soil food web....he knows this by using his bad ass microscope.


[youtube]JZz7vnaX2S8&context[/youtube]

[youtube]MR7ZTrZQuFg&feature[/youtube]


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## wyteboi (May 7, 2012)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> I started a thread but i should of asked my question here.
> 
> Ok, so i want to make a bone meal, blood meal and guano tea. I have been doing alot of reading and im not quite sure how to prepare this yet. Would letting all the ingredients sit in water together cause some type of bad bacteria to form? I know people recommend to let it sit in water im just wondering if the ingredients are combined and sat in water if that would do any harm? Also im thinking bubbling the ingredients in water for a few days would be better than letting it sit in water, would do you think?
> 
> So my plan, bubble some bone,blood,guano for two days. then add tablespoon of molasses and bubble 2 morre days. How does this sound? Is this the correct way to make this type of tea?


im not really sure i have the answer your lookin for. but i think its cool to put the meals and compost/molasses in all together. i have done it a million times. Now days just for the fuck of it , i only use castings, sugar an a tiny bit of liquid karma. (didnt buy it, gotta use it) then once my tea is brewed i will add the NPK, and or the micros. 

i like to use all my powders in or on the soil. a lot of the powders will get "stuck" in the tea brewer , not enough to care about, but also i dont think the microbes really eat much of it in the tea anyways, they are too busy breeding and eating there food of choice.(carbs)

sorry guys , i didnt see this was already answered.

soil


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## Da Almighty Jew (May 7, 2012)

wyteboi said:


> im not really sure i have the answer your lookin for. but i think its cool to put the meals and compost/molasses in all together. i have done it a million times. Now days just for the fuck of it , i only use castings, sugar an a tiny bit of liquid karma. (didnt buy it, gotta use it) then once my tea is brewed i will add the NPK, and or the micros.
> 
> i like to use all my powders in or on the soil. a lot of the powders will get "stuck" in the tea brewer , not enough to care about, but also i dont think the microbes really eat much of it in the tea anyways, they are too busy breeding and eating there food of choice.(carbs)
> 
> ...


thanks. I went ahead and top dressed my plants also. they are in 3gal pots so i gave them each 1 tbls psb guano, blood meal and bone meal. I did this because i know its proably the next best way to apply rather than applying it in the very beginning.. This should do them very good


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## wyteboi (May 7, 2012)

if you guys would just loan me the 3 grand for the scope i will happily do all the studies 


soil


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## RawBudzski (May 7, 2012)

What about letting buckets of compost tea sit for months and months, with no forced bubbles. People say it goes anaerobic & is bad, but I have a couple buddies who say if done correctly it will bubble on its own slowly. I have never smoked anything as sticky,& racy. 

So what about when people did not have air pumps & were making types of "teas" simply by letting a big pool of organic material rot.


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## Rrog (May 8, 2012)

Budski, sounds like you may be describing Fermented Plant Extracts


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## trichome fiend (May 9, 2012)

RawBudzski said:


> What about letting buckets of compost tea sit for months and months, with no forced bubbles. People say it goes anaerobic & is bad, but I have a couple buddies who say if done correctly it will bubble on its own slowly. I have never smoked anything as sticky,& racy.
> 
> So what about when people did not have air pumps & were making types of "teas" simply by letting a big pool of organic material rot.


...the organic nerds say:

*What AACT is not

*Do not confuse actively aerated compost tea with compost leachates, compost extracts, or manure teas, all of which have been employed by farmers and gardeners for centuries. 
Compost leachate is the liquid that oozes out of compost when it is pressed or when water runs through it and leaches out. Sure, these concoctions get a bit of color and may have some nutrient value, but leachates do little to impart microbial life to your soils: the bacteria and fungi in compost are attached to organic matter and soil particles with biological glues; they don't simply wash off. 
Compost extract is what you get when you soak compost in water for a couple weeks or more. The end result is an anaerobic soup with perhaps a bit of aerobic activity on the surface. The loss of aerobic microbial diversity alone (not to mention the risk of it's containing anaerobic pathogens and alcohols) suggests that compost extracts are not worth the effort. We don't consider it safe or advisable to use them. 
Manure tea, created by suspending a bag of manure in water for several weeks, is also anaerobic. Using manure is asking fro pathogenic problems and, especially under anaerobic conditions, virtually assures the presence of E.coli. We want the beneficial microbes to be working in our soils and to get these; you have to keep things aerobic.


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## Da Almighty Jew (May 9, 2012)

trichome fiend said:


> ...the organic nerds say:
> 
> The loss of aerobic microbial diversity alone (not to mention the risk of it's containing anaerobic pathogens and alcohols) suggests that compost extracts are not worth the effort. We don't consider it safe or advisable to use them.
> Manure tea, created by suspending a bag of manure in water for several weeks, is also anaerobic. Using manure is asking fro pathogenic problems and, especially under anaerobic conditions, virtually assures the presence of E.coli. We want the beneficial microbes to be working in our soils and to get these; you have to keep things aerobic.


We know that its best to keep it aerobic after reading teaming with microbes. But what i am simply saying is that more research needs to be done on these before its lumped into the category of BAD TO USE. Especially like how you mentioned that farmers have been using these methods for centuries.


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## trichome fiend (May 9, 2012)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> We know that its best to keep it aerobic after reading teaming with microbes. But what i am simply saying is that more research needs to be done on these before its lumped into the category of BAD TO USE. Especially like how you mentioned that farmers have been using these methods for centuries.


...I'm just quote'n the book...


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## cindysid (May 9, 2012)

This will be a really stinky mess. You might get away with the bone meal and guano.....maybe....but the blood meal is going to stink to high heaven, like death!


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## trichome fiend (May 10, 2012)

[youtube]GEtl09VZiSU&feature[/youtube]


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## trichome fiend (May 10, 2012)

[youtube]rVLF5XGxOnU&feature[/youtube]


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## wyteboi (May 11, 2012)

Da Almighty Jew said:


> We know that its best to keep it aerobic after reading teaming with microbes. But what i am simply saying is that more research needs to be done on these before its lumped into the category of BAD TO USE. Especially like how you mentioned that farmers have been using these methods for centuries.


this WHOLE "organic gardening" needs more research and studies. i been sayin this. there are hundreds of species of fungus and bacterias that are good for plants but yet we can only half ass describe what 5 of them are and what exactly they do.

the idea of anaerobic teas is not bad at all , thats why farmers been doing it. and my guess is that the good that comes out of it and the goodness of the earth will overcome the "bad" bacteria in the tea. most of us just know that there can be bad shit in the anaerobic shit so we stay away from it. 

i cant wait till all the studies around the world start comin in , in the bulk. i already use EM and i have to brew it completely anaerobically or it will go bad. its breaks down organic matter faster when starting with EM , but its not until the aerobic bacterias get to it.

when you ferment your table scraps with EM in a anaerobic environment for a couple weeks , then put the shit into the ground , it will be gone in just a couple weeks.
i believe em uses LAB (lactic acid bacteria) , yeast, and uh... i cant remember the third bacteria. ok i googled it , photosythetic bacteria.


soil ​


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## blueJ (Jun 28, 2012)

I beefed up my soilless mix & standardized it so i know what the hell is really going on  

In veg i've been getting away with NO bottled....anything!

In flower i alternate nutes / teas BUT i am trying these two ladies with JUST ACT's to see how my yields stack up. Here's my simple tea:

5 gal water
20 - 30ml molasses
1 cup compost or EWC
1/2 cup alfalfa meal



Ladies love it!!

Anyone using CAPS bennies? I've been meaning to order them, but my ebay account is jacked up....


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## Rrog (Jun 28, 2012)

Maybe easy on the Alfalfa during flower. Serious Nitrogen might hermie or burn the ladies.


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## blueJ (Jun 28, 2012)

Thanks & that's what i think/thought but I've seen some major big grows using this tea (pluse CAPS bennies) right up till the 8th week of flower, i stop @ two weeks before chop with the tea and will be monitoring strains to see how they respond, so far it = no more N deficiencies, lush green growth all the way through & large budset. Happy with the results, but closely monitoring as i'm not used to so much N in mid even late flower, but results have only been positive & I had always struggled with proper N in flower.


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## Rrog (Jun 28, 2012)

Having the N available isn't so much the issue. SuperSoil is loaded with it and plenty to spare when done. But it's locked away (stored) from the plant to keep it from harm, then fed to the plant as it needs it. The Alfalfa, blood meal, urine, etc is high, raw Nitrogen. Just have to go careful.


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## NickNasty (Jun 29, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Anyone using CAPS bennies? I've been meaning to order them, but my ebay account is jacked up....



I have used Caps bennies, I use 1 tablespoon per 20 gal and it works great.


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## trichmasta (Jul 3, 2012)

Any thing i need to add to my veg brew?

1c/g EWC
2c/g Alaska Humisoil
1 tbsp/g blackstrap molasses

Was a wonderful brew last run, just want to give my tga gear the utmost love!!


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## blueJ (Jul 3, 2012)

Just ordered the CAPS bennies, looking forward to their arrival  Also ordered some beneficial nematodes to help keep the dang knats in check

Trichmasta, i add alfalfa meal, ladies lovin' it! i use a 1/2 cup per 5 gallon, but as mentioned above, i do notice they get very dark green lol, I will go down to 1/4 cup and stop by the 4th week in flower.


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## trichmasta (Jul 4, 2012)

Thanks blue j!! Gonna give that a try and see what the ladies think


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## Kalyx (Jul 8, 2012)

Trichmasta you should also consider adding in a liquid kelp. I use about 1 TBL/gallon. It will mainly give the all important micros that all enzymes are built around. Bacteria will function without producing all their enzymes if the micros are not there to build em with. Kelp is also packed with hormones, growth regulators, and macro nutients. Micros can also be found in soft rock P, glacial rock dust, and ocean/himalayan salt. Make sure they're all available to the herd especially if said meals/dusts/micros are not present in your soil mix.

BlueJ do you ever get tons more slime coating everything in the bucket with alfalfa vs without? I can't figure out if its from using glacial rock dust (more micros for the B/A slime to build itself faster?) or if the alfalfa feeds the B/A better causing more slime, or if the alfalfa micro particles just get caught on the B/A layer. I just worry about my brew getting anaerobic with slime on everything thats submerged. pH is good tho (7ish after 36-48 hours) so maybe I'm stressing for no reason.


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## trichmasta (Jul 8, 2012)

Thanks for the tip Kalyx...any particular one you're rocking and liking?? 

I use the Organa Add as my micro...potent stuff-1-2/5 gal


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## Kalyx (Jul 8, 2012)

I like concentrated high quality kelps like technafloras soluble seaweed 1-1-16 (1/8 tsp/gal, dry powder), thrive alive green (1-2ml/L), or GH's Floralicious Plus (1ml/GAL!, it also has humic acid, plant protein hydrolysate AND FPEs; good stuff and lasts forever). The concentrated kelps will cost more per volume but make sense because they are high quality and last a long time. I am currently working thru a bottle of Roots Extreme Serene. I use it at 5ml/gal for direct watering in, and at 15ml/gal in my AACT. I also have and am using Floralicious Plus directly watered in as an additive in veg, then switch to bioboost as my main bloom additive and eliminate most of the kelp except for the techniflora soluble seaweed as part of my KP boost in weeks 3 and 5. Hope this kelps!  hehe.


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## trichmasta (Jul 8, 2012)

I have both the soluble seaweed thrive alive, so that makes it supa easy to experiment!! Gotta brew going right now-perfect timing!!


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## blueJ (Jul 9, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> BlueJ do you ever get tons more slime coating everything in the bucket with alfalfa vs without? I can't figure out if its from using glacial rock dust (more micros for the B/A slime to build itself faster?) or if the alfalfa feeds the B/A better causing more slime, or if the alfalfa micro particles just get caught on the B/A layer. I just worry about my brew getting anaerobic with slime on everything thats submerged. pH is good tho (7ish after 36-48 hours) so maybe I'm stressing for no reason.


Ya know what, i do think the alfalfa leaves its own unique slime buildup on my stones and sides of the buckets. I also notice when i use EWC vs. compost i get a chunky brown slime buildup and lots of it lol. I alternate buckets so they dry out each time and pull the stones out to clean in the sink once a week (i try to lol) and i never bubble the same brew for more than 24 hours, i get great foamage by 12hrs and this whole process helps to keep the slime buildup to a minimum. The slime is anaerobic and will always be there on the sides/bottoms/stones etc. but isn't bad as long as we're getting healthy frothy sweet smelling tea. If you don't clean and let the slime build up ontop of itself you'll notice unfrothy teas, i've noticed it and thats when i decided that keeping things clean is a very important step to not skip

Alfalfa is some awesome good stuff. I notice with a good strong tea of it, all the leaves lift up and point skyward (more so than they normally do after a good compost tea), i love it.

I found an awesome site, i think rose mountain organics, they sell bulk dried or powdered of just about everything you can imagine. I'm going to order nettle, comfrey and a couple others to experiment with.


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## Kalyx (Jul 9, 2012)

I know exactly what you mean by a very happy plants leaves reaching to the light. I love to see my crops do this. I have noticed it from foliar spraying certain brands of kelp too (Extreme Serene does it, I think they may preserve certain compounds or concentrations of them that the other processes do not?) Thanks for the motivation to keep things clean in the AACT process. I have read that it is key but am guilty of slacking on this one. I have used the same piece of pantyhose for who knows how long now! Good stuff experimenting with other inputs! Keep on innovating BlueJ, and of course keep us posted (I know you will!).


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## wyteboi (Jul 10, 2012)

I been using only ewc, molasses and/or earthjuice's catalyst, and about 5-10mil per gal of liquid karma or any other kelp. 

My fungi (slime) builds up real fast with the catalyst but not as fast or as much with just molasses. My guess would be that the catalyst has more "fungi food" in it. an molasses is just an all around carb. 

As long as you KNOW its aerobic then you wont go wrong. i have used teas for well over a week , so i am convicted of abusing the teas , but like i said as long as you know its aerobic then you can go 2 or 3 days. (2 is best in my opinion)


soil


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## Redbird1223 (Jul 13, 2012)

recently i brewed an fpe/ compost tea with just bermuda grass and water. let it sit for 3 days. after the first day it smelled sooooooooooo bad i couldn't believe it. i'd rather smell a rotting carcass, that bad! so i wasn't brave enough to pour it on my vegetable garden and just dumped it on the lawn in a designated spot. it has not grown or died yet so idk.

when i thinned my med garden i figured i would save the clippings and try the same thing, just leaves covered with r/o water. but its been 8 days now and the shit smells like i could drink it. how come the weed tea doesn't stink? should i just toss it in the compost pile?


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## trichome fiend (Jul 19, 2012)

...look what happens when you feed the microbes  ...a 15' tomato plant that out grew the 12' trellis.


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## trichome fiend (Jul 19, 2012)

....here's a little more organic goodness 

sweet potatoes


melon patch


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## Rrog (Jul 19, 2012)

GREAT stuff Fiend! Really great! Thanks for sharing the pics. 

I think your work inspires others, and what a great thing that is.


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## trichome fiend (Jul 19, 2012)

thankx bro!


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## Kalyx (Jul 20, 2012)

Nice Melons! AACT for the win. I dream of someday having that much space for veggies, thanks for sharing the pics. Grow big or grow home lol. Are those marketmore cukes? I have 2 and they are like no other cukes I've ever grown in appearance, huge flowers tho. Keep up the good work TF.


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## trichome fiend (Jul 20, 2012)

...hey thankx Kalyx!
...those are cantaloupe, I have a couple different kinds of cantaloupe and several kinds of watermelon....one type of pumpkin.


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## Kalyx (Jul 21, 2012)

TF I was asking about the squash that is bigger than the gatorade bottle. What type of squash is it? It looks great, only the early done squash look that good around here because the squash bugs set in and decimate right around this time of year... So i got some 'marketmore cukes' im wondering were mislabeled squash seedlings, they look just like the leaves/stem/vine in the gatorade bottle pic.


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## Gyroscope (Jul 21, 2012)

Hello TF,
I jumped over here from Al B's page. Nice pics that you posted there. Do you have another journal that shows your setup ? What is the spacing on those plants in that second pic ? Thanks.


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## trichome fiend (Jul 21, 2012)

Gyroscope said:


> Hello TF,
> I jumped over here from Al B's page. Nice pics that you posted there. Do you have another journal that shows your setup ? What is the spacing on those plants in that second pic ? Thanks.


...hi ya Gyro...I haven't made a thread with my hydro setups, but I have posted alot in the past within Al's thread...he's been a big influence ( thankx a millon Al!  ) ...you mentioned my spacing, they're about 6" apart. Those plants are in 3" netted pots that have been cut and fitted into 4"x4" fence post, panda poly covers the root area....sunleaves, "Grow Rocks" as the medium...running the Lucas Formula. 

...we can converse over at Al's, he has no problem with it...good guy that Al.


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## trichome fiend (Jul 21, 2012)

Kalyx said:


> TF I was asking about the squash that is bigger than the gatorade bottle. What type of squash is it? It looks great, only the early done squash look that good around here because the squash bugs set in and decimate right around this time of year... So i got some 'marketmore cukes' im wondering were mislabeled squash seedlings, they look just like the leaves/stem/vine in the gatorade bottle pic.


...I'm going to see if I have the little tag with the named labeled on it around the garden area, I'll get back with ya...I can't remember what they are atm.


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## no clue (Jul 22, 2012)

Great thread. Any thoughts on using rain water for teas?


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## NickNasty (Jul 23, 2012)

Well your not supposed to use rain water off of certain types of roofs because of leaching chemicals but you can make a bio-filter with sand pretty easily that will purify your water so I dont see a problem with it.


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## no clue (Jul 23, 2012)

Do you know which type of roof to watch out for? My house has an asphalt shingle roof about 12 years old


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## NickNasty (Jul 23, 2012)

It probably is leaching some chemicals into the water the key is how much. You can get your water tested relatively cheaply just google it and ask them if your levels are ok to water your edible plants with. If you have chemicals leaching into your water you can make a biosand filter for your water that will leach out almost all contaminants to the point where where it should be drinkable. But I would get that water checked too just to make sure you did everything correctly and you can find tons of video's and pages on how to make those. You could also buy a water filter to put on your rain barrel and just gravity feed water through it.


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## OGrasta (Aug 27, 2012)

Bountea is the best tea i've used... the ancient microbes get it done! But be careful with the m3. I use half the recommended rate every other brew (2 weeks) only until the 4th week in flower. It can increase yellowing if your not careful.


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## OGrasta (Aug 27, 2012)

How about root web? or equivalent mycorrhizae blend?


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## Jumpstart (Aug 28, 2012)

trichome fiend said:


> ...no salts into your tea, nor your soil.
> ...as long as you have a healthy soil food web, your plants will need for nothing...and if you've started with a quality soil (such as Fox Farm's Ocean Forest, Roots Organics, Humboldt Happy Frog, exc...) then your off to a good start. When it comes time to replenish your soil, it all starts with the compost, the compost should be mostly bacterial for annuals such as MJ but fungi plays an important role, although you can alter which populates in your tea when brewing. What is your compost source? ...do you know what's in it?


But if something does go wrong and you have a Mg deficiency, adding Epson Salts or like Cal Mag + to leaves and soil is the fix. So if no salts in soil, how do you fix this problem?


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## NickNasty (Aug 29, 2012)

I don't think cal mag would be a problem but if you want to try something else for Mg def try fish meal, greensand or dolomite lime.


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## Jumpstart (Aug 30, 2012)

http://www.smilinggardener.com/organic-soil-management/dolomite-lime or maybe calcitic lime ? I havent trkinda ied the fish meal yet. I have three plants that I can try different "fixs" - kinda like that better than the CalMag - thanks


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## postedup610 (Sep 2, 2012)

TY TY TY TY TY & TY i thought i knew about compost tea brewing, but after reading and medicating I can say I am well informed.


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## trichome fiend (Sep 3, 2012)

postedup610 said:


> TY TY TY TY TY & TY i thought i knew about compost tea brewing, but after reading and medicating I can say I am well informed.


[youtube]lX5tfRdkoY0[/youtube]


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## HanginIron (Sep 10, 2012)

WOW!! What an immense amount of information! 
I am currently in my 5th week of bloom for my first grow. I have been using GH Flora series and been pleased with the results but interested in going with organics. After reading this entire thread this a.m. I am now convinced that I have been killing my bennies this whole time, I had no idea! You can bet I will be reading this thread again, as well as buying 'Teaming with microbes'. Right now my mind is overwhelmed with questions. I am sure many of which I will be asking about in the near future. For now I will be definitely doing some studying.
Thanks for all the great info guys!


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## trichmasta (Sep 11, 2012)

Anyone just running teas? Possibly in an amended soil?? Let's here your recipes and success riu.


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## MokiHort (Sep 17, 2012)

trichmasta said:


> Anyone just running teas? Possibly in an amended soil?? Let's here your recipes and success riu.


I don't like buying too much stuff for my grows so I really only use compost tea and garden soil that's mixed with compost. I could probably use more soil amendments but so far, I've been able to produce enough each season to last me till the next season's harvest on what I'm doing now. 
I have two worm bins set up, each about 55 gallon barrels, and a larger mulch/compost pile. I harvest one worm farm each spring while the other is replenished and use the castings as a soil additive (about a 1/4 ratio of castings/soil) and for tea. I add a solid layer of mulch (from the bigger pile that mostly consists of decomposed leaves, organic grass clippings, and some veggie scraps) around the base of each of my plants. I use an AACT about twice a month too. Usually consists of castings, garden soil, kelp meal, and molasses. 
It's simple and I could probably work more on the soil recipe but I enjoy the fact that it's sustainable. Last year I harvested 3 plants that each produced approximately 3 oz dried buds. Runnin a little low right now but it's harvest time again in a week or so.


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## dank smoker420 (Sep 17, 2012)

trichmasta said:


> Anyone just running teas? Possibly in an amended soil?? Let's here your recipes and success riu.


i use amended soil with some basic compost tea. and my plants are looking healthy. the buds arnt really massive or anything probably cause im not super feeding since this is my first organic run.


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## trichmasta (Sep 18, 2012)

dank smoker420 said:


> i use amended soil with some basic compost tea. and my plants are looking healthy. the buds arnt really massive or anything probably cause im not super feeding since this is my first organic run.


Nice dude!! I always like to feed on the light side followed by tea! I hope to amend my soil a little more in the future- I'm thinking Ewc, alaska humisoil, and insect frass


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## blueJ (Sep 19, 2012)

trichmasta said:


> Anyone just running teas? Possibly in an amended soil?? Let's here your recipes and success riu.


This strain loves the botanical teas & living organic soil mix  - only use aloe vera (rooting compounds, micronutes etc), silica (protekt) & fulpower (fulvic acid) from the bottle, if I grew fresh aloe I wouln't buy the juice from the nutrition center.


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## trichmasta (Sep 19, 2012)

In


blueJ said:


> This strain loves the botanical teas & living organic soil mix  - only use aloe vera (rooting compounds, micronutes etc), silica (protekt) & fulpower (fulvic acid) from the bottle, if I grew fresh aloe I wouln't buy the juice from the nutrition center.
> View attachment 2341023
> 
> View attachment 2341024


Looking good bluej +rep! What all are you amending with homie?


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## Jumpstart (Sep 20, 2012)

*What Are Humic and Fulvic Acids? 
*In case someone wants to know - good for humans too - I use a similar product to my teas

Humic acid and fulvic acid are types of &#8220;humic substances,&#8221; the major components of organic matter found throughout nature as a result of the action of millions of beneficial microbes on decomposing plants (humification). Considered to be the most chemically active compounds in soil, humic substances contain many nutritional phytochemical groups, including _natural sterols_, _hormones_, _fatty acids_, _polyphenols_, and _ketones_, as well as phytochemical subgroups of compounds such as _flavonoids_, _flavones_, _flavins_, _catechins_, _tannins_, _quinones_, _isoflavones_, and _tocopherols_, among others. These compounds are some of the most valuable and promising anti-cancer nutrients known today.


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## blueJ (Sep 23, 2012)

trichmasta said:


> In
> 
> Looking good bluej +rep! What all are you amending with homie?


Trichmasta - oh man the list is endless  LOL

I recycle all my soil, reamend and reuse yadda yadda, I also have several no-till buckets/tubs/smart pots going which I topdress with a select few amendments & an inch or so of EWC.

Pretty much all of the following went in there @ a rate of 1cup, some @ 1/2 cup, per each 14gal. of mix, & not all at the same reamend, but it's in there. It's also very nutrient rich so going forward i'm only amending with a select few and very little.

Alfalfa - Kelp - neem - horsetail - yucca root - D.E. - gypsum - limestone - granite/rock dust - bentonite clay - dolomite lime - azomite - bone meal - fish bone meal - fish meal - crab meal -------- I THINK that's it LOL and of course EWC & compost in the mix. 

Going forward no more animal products except the crab shell meal - excelent source of calcium carbonate, chitin & it's the Phosphorus source.

From there it's botanical teas & EWC/Compost teas as needed, foliars too.


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## got2doodle (Sep 29, 2012)

Hi all,
I'm a noob and reading reading reading. I'm just throwing a quick question out there about making compost tea and doubt that it has been asked before or at least it's not one of those 'asked a thousand times noobie questions'.

I was give a rather large ultrasonic cleaner that was used to clean photographic developing trays. Assuming that it is clean enough that no chemical residue remains (it's very clean and hasn't been used in over ten years). I think it would be perfect for making compost and worm teas.

It's made of stainless steel, it has a built in heater and a large ultrasonic transducer to accelerate the cleaning process by agitating the water and creating tiny bubbles (I need to more research on how this works). I also have the option of providing aeration using compressed air, I just need to buy some air stones at the local petshop.

Anyway, has anyone ever heard of using ultrasonic stimulation used this way? Even if I remove the transducer, I think this would be an excellent vessel (because of built in heating and I live in Canada and winter is coming) for worm and compost tea.

The vessel is about 26 - 30" wide 8-10" deep and 28-30" tall, it has wheels and a drain on the bottom.

Plus I have a lot of comfrey around and I just learned yesterday about how good that is for activating the soil and I am very interested in going organic with both my indoor(cannabis) and outdoor (food) garden.

Any comments are welcome,
Thanks
doodle


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## blueJ (Sep 29, 2012)

Sounds like an expensive worm bin! If you don't have any other use for this ultrasonic cleaner, then have it bro, but many throw the worms in a $10 plastic tote and it works out just fine  

COMFREY, that's gonna become your best friend, compost it, mulch with it, make a tea with it, make Fermented Plant Extract with it. Comfrey's awesome, add the following to the list if you have access and use it in the same way:

Stinging Nettle
Yarrow
Horsetail
Alfalfa
Kelp

and honestly the list goes on


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## got2doodle (Sep 29, 2012)

Thanks blueJ, no I have no other use for it, but just to clarify I plan to use it to brew worm(worm castings) and compost tea. I'll get into a worm bin next spring and buy castings in the mean time. I live near the ocean so harvesting some sea weed is also quite possible.

If I use sea weed should I wash the salt water off? I'm assuming yes.

Right now my plants are only two weeks old from seed so I have time to gear myself up a bit, plus going organic I have a LOT to learn but I think after a while it's probably pretty intuitive once you grok what you are trying to achieve, *feeding the soi*l seems to be the first concept to grasp.

Thanks again,
doodle


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## got2doodle (Sep 29, 2012)

Perhaps there is a better use for the ultrasonic generator
doodle


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## blueJ (Sep 29, 2012)

Interesting hehe, yeah dude I totally misread . Seaweed, yea just rinse it off n soak a ill and rinse off and let dry and chop up and they're you have homemade kelp meal! Browns are the best for what we use it for, micro nutes, rooting compounds etc. but greens or reds wouldn't be bad, just not as much goodies.


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## mackey (Sep 30, 2012)

New at growing weed and new at organics. Used a airstone in tea but them read that sometimes that can be dangerous breathing around this if too potent. Does anyone know alot about this danger??


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## mackey (Sep 30, 2012)

mackey said:


> New at growing weed and new at organics. Used a airstone in tea but them read that sometimes that can be dangerous breathing around this if too potent. Does anyone know alot about this danger??



Sorry found the answer. People should use extreme caution with air stones & manures


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## batf1nk (Oct 3, 2012)

Why haven't I seen this thread! Damn guys your really flying the flag for us organic ppl.

Well as an organic grower and compost tea maker MAJOR PROPS. Good debate, good information and no children arguing, am I still on RIU?

Jokes aside I am still in the process of reading this but I'm subbed!


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## batf1nk (Oct 3, 2012)

Here is some more information on humic acid I have on google doc's. Source is here

*HUMIC ACID &#8212; BLACK NECTAR FROM THE GODS
By Cindy Rea 

HUMIC ACID is nature&#8217;s &#8220;black nectar from the gods.&#8221; Known by its rich dark brown-to-black colour, this organically charged biostimulant has proven to have powerful and significant health effects on humans, animals, plants, and the environment, demonstrating the essential unity of all living things. 

Because human bodies are made of materials that come from the earth, it is often the case that materials from the earth are agents of health. Humic acid was used by ancient cultures and in folk remedies for a wide variety of illnesses. It is known to be a powerful free-radical scavenger and a natural antioxidant. Humates taken internally are believed to boost the immune system by attacking unwanted injured or dead cells, thereby decreasing or eliminating infection. Experimentally, humic acid has been used both topically and internally to treat and prevent infection in burn victims. The humates destroy the invading infectious cells, allowing the healthy cells to take over. Russian scientists have had measured success in trials using humic acid to treat radiation sickness in rats. 

Ingestion of humic acids through organic foods and clean natural water from unpolluted rivers is believed to reduce or block the body&#8217;s absorption of heavy metals and pesticides. This may help diminish the buildup of cancer-causing toxins and pollutants in the human body. It is believed that humic acid is anti-carcinogenic. 

Humic acids have also been employed as veterinary medicine therapy successfully using peat mull (extracted humic acid) to prevent the transmission of foot and mouth disease in pigs. 

Before mega-production farming practices depleted our land of its natural goodness, humic acid was an abundant part of the soil. Plants and animals nurtured on the land ingested a balanced diet that included humates. Unfortunately, this is no longer the case. Animals and soil-grown plants have been deprived of the many health benefits that humic acid delivers. 

Humic acid can be extracted from recently composted organic manure or peat, but it is not as effective in absorbing and distributing micronutrients as the humic acid that is derived from Leonardite. (Recently is a relative term, which in this case refers to several thousand years.) The humic acid referred to as &#8220;black&#8221; in hydroponic formulations is the rich material extracted from naturally oxidized and carefully selected sources of Leonardite. 

Leonardite is a naturally occurring hydrocarbon shale formed in the earth over millions of years by the chemical and biological decomposition of prehistoric plant and animal matter. Being highly decomposed, natural humus, and having been subject to a significant level of microbial activity, it contains high concentrations of the organic humic and fulvic acids. This organic acid concentration varies from deposit to deposit. Some of the highest quality Leonardite deposits in the world are found in South America. 

Humic acid has virtually been leached from our agricultural soil, and crops have endured the deficiency. The natural antioxidant protection provided to plants rich in a humic-based soil is not available. 

Humic acids help to improve the soil&#8217;s water-holding capacity, improve the soil structure, and help to maintain soil stability. Humic acids readily form salts with inorganic trace minerals in a form that can be more easily utilized by plants. 

Humic acids promote vigor, disease resistance, and root development in agricultural crops. The result is faster growth. The acids assist roots by increasing soil permeability, increasing water retention, reducing water evaporation, and promoting the growth of beneficial microbial colonies in the root zone. The creation of a healthy, microbially active root zone environment creates stronger plants that take up nutrients better. 

In a hydroponic environment humic acid supplementation offers many of the same benefits to plants that it does in a soil culture. Because hydroponic growing takes place in an enclosed environment, it is possible to specifically target plants with a minimum of waste. 

Adding a humic-acid&#8211;based solution, referred to as &#8220;BLACK&#8221; in hydroponic preparations, to the nutrient reservoir will increase the efficacy of the nutrients, making both micro and macronutrients more readily available to the root zone. Humic acid&#8217;s high cation capacity serves as a chelator, which helps plants better assimilate all the nutrients in the solution. The chelation process helps make and keep nutrients readily available to be used by plants as needed. 

Environmental stresses can cause irreparable damage to plants &#8212; stunting or delaying growth, prohibiting flower production, or even causing death. Free-radical molecules result from stress such as high heat or temperature fluctuations, too high humidity, pesticide applications, and nutrient deficiencies or toxicities. The biostimulant activity of humic acid black produces antioxidants that combat these free radicals, making plants more resistant to these and other environmental stressors. Humic acid black remains in the cells, providing ongoing protection. 

One of the organic compounds in humic acid black is carbon, which manufactures sugars in plants. Sugars are especially important during flowering because plants require an increased amount of carbohydrates to produce fruit. The carbohydrate infusion delivered in humic acid black will also organically enhance flavour, colour, and aroma of fruit. 

Seed germination is accelerated when humic acid black is added. Humic acid&#8217;s effect on seed germination is similar to its effect on rooted plants. Humic acid, carrying both micronutrients and water, is drawn into the seed through the pore, stimulating growth of the radical. Not only do they germinate faster but also there is a higher percentage of seeds germinating. 

Beneficial bacteria and fungi reproduction created in the presence of humic acid black biologically increase plant growth. The microbial activity produced by these bacteria and fungi are excellent root stimulators. Humic acid black has also been shown to lower pH to a more neutral level, helping with the availability of nutrients. All this translates into healthier, stronger, and more pest-resistant plants. 

Humic acid black is an environmentally safe biostimulant that can be used throughout the entire growth cycle. The addition of humic acid black to a high-quality nutrient regimen will result in superior quality crop production, whether it is through soil or hydroponic cultivation. The crops will, in turn, be ingested by animals and humans, enriching the diet of the entire food chain.*


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## trichmasta (Oct 13, 2012)

Just dialed in my tea game some mo!! Got some 5 gal mesh tea bags to really stack some microbes!!
http://www.simplici-tea.com/


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## Rrog (Oct 13, 2012)

Lots of humic and fulvic acids in compost


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## Rrog (Oct 14, 2012)

trichmasta said:


> Just dialed in my tea game some mo!! Got some 5 gal mesh tea bags to really stack some microbes!!
> http://www.simplici-tea.com/


That is an excellent and highly recommended site for quality products. Those guys know their stuff, and are very MJ knowledgeable.


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## trichmasta (Oct 14, 2012)

Rrog said:


> That is an excellent and highly recommended site for quality products. Those guys know their stuff, and are very MJ knowledgeable.


For sure!! Today I'm ordering some fungal compost, microbe catalyst, and mineral mix for ammending!! Their Alaska humisoil looks amazing too, but it s outta stock...happy brewing all! Soil and microbe <3


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## trichmasta (Oct 22, 2012)

blueJ said:


> Sounds like an expensive worm bin! If you don't have any other use for this ultrasonic cleaner, then have it bro, but many throw the worms in a $10 plastic tote and it works out just fine
> 
> COMFREY, that's gonna become your best friend, compost it, mulch with it, make a tea with it, make Fermented Plant Extract with it. Comfrey's awesome, add the following to the list if you have access and use it in the same way:
> 
> ...


really interested in this buddy....are you using the powders or the actual flowers in your brews?? I wanna ditch the dependence of bottles of nutes as well!!


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2012)

For people that can't have a full blown compost heap, you should look at making Bokashi from all of your table scraps, etc. Prokashi.com has some cool videos


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## Endur0xX (Oct 22, 2012)

You will need EM (effective microorganism) to make your own bokashi, I buy mine from http://www.gardenerspantry.ca/


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## Rrog (Oct 23, 2012)

I'll be collecting my own EM and inoculating my bran.


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## Endur0xX (Oct 23, 2012)

nice how do you collect EM!?


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## Rrog (Oct 23, 2012)

I purchased Gil Carandang's book titled "Grow Your Own Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms and Bionutrients In Natural Farming" at Amazon for $9.99 (digital ebook). 

I see many on youtube who use a simple LAB serum to inoculate the bran, then they dry. Others use a pre-made EM mix from a bottle, which isn't bad at all! I'd just rather try and make my own.

Essentially you use a food source like rice or rice water to attract the locals. Then you feed them to amplify them, then you put some in milk to select only the Lacto Bacilli 

Given that you are collecting the strongest local microbes, and given that there are likely thousands of various Lacto B strains in any sampling, I'm not seeing the need to use bacteria in a bottle from some other state or country.


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## Endur0xX (Oct 23, 2012)

right on!! thanks!! this is a step ahead of where I am at right now, I have a bottle of EM that is almost empty and a bottle of non-activated EM that I can use to make 20 more activated bottle of EM so I am good for while but I ll def. be looking into making my own in the future!! THANKS


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## Rrog (Oct 23, 2012)

Considering how concentrated the bottle is, and how cheap it is, you really have to question my sanity. It's not like I think I can make it any better, I just like the idea of collecting, amplifying and harvesting myself. 

I'd also raise predatory nematodes, etc if I had enough plants.


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## Endur0xX (Oct 23, 2012)

Yes it is cheap, and also I know the one I buy is loaded LOADED with bennies, but it's nice to know how it works and really understand it. Also it's one of the few bottles I am buying so its not like I am spending a fortune on nutrients.


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## Rrog (Oct 23, 2012)

I completely understand. I'm collecting rather than buying more as a hobby than anything.


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## batf1nk (Oct 23, 2012)

Endur0xX said:


> nice how do you collect EM!?


I bought mine from here

http://www.em-sustainableliving.co.uk/


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## Sampras1489 (Oct 23, 2012)

Hey nerds, I've got a great recipe I just recently started using. 

1 cup EWC
1 cup fungal compost from simplici-tea.com
5 tbs molasses
5 tbs liquid karma

I brew this tea for about 24 hours in a 5 gallon bucket with 3 air stones. The plants LOVE it. I'm always excited when I make the tea because I know how happy the girls are gonna be. 

sampras


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## farmit420 (Oct 24, 2012)

awesome outline dude! thanks bro for the layout


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## StickEnugzz (Nov 2, 2012)

trichome fiend said:


> *Soil Food Web Gardening *
> *...with compost teas*​...(text from the book, "Teaming with Microbes" written by Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis)​...any questions or comments about the book are welcome, I'd love to discuss it.
> ...+ REP if you like.
> 
> ...


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## sorethumb (Nov 15, 2012)

i've read dr elaine ingham recommends hydrogen peroxide anyone else hear of this . the educate yourself site is this a lie?


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## Rrog (Nov 15, 2012)

Elaine Ingham is considered a knucklehead amongst my organic soil contacts. What would the benefit of this be?


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## trichome fiend (Nov 15, 2012)

sorethumb said:


> i've read dr elaine ingham recommends hydrogen peroxide anyone else hear of this . the educate yourself site is this a lie?


...I've seen it debated on the boards, but I wouldn't add h202 to organics.


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## RandyHighwood (Dec 4, 2012)

Great read guys! thank you for supplying so much information. Question for you guys, I think that i've got leaf spot fungus (lsf, https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/592637-fungus-mold-blight.html#post8340160 ) on some newly rooted clones. I've just moved my clone/teenage area and i dont thin i have enough air movement. Would you recommend applying a tea to compete with the pathogen on the leaf space? apply a fungicide? Or Kill em? Any info is greatly appreciated.

RH


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## Jman305 (Dec 4, 2012)

Rrog said:


> Holy shit batman


 Lol that's what I have to say about this whole thread! Great job, OP for putting this on here. It has helped me tremendously in my quest for organic, sustainable living. The part about bacteria vs fungi = awesome.  Does anyone know if I can use honey instead of molasses?! Molasses is a little too acidic and caused me a few problems last time. I have Pulverized lime I can use at the last minute I guess, though. 1/8 teaspoon per liter. My girls feed HEAVY on the N and P. I can feed them full dosage and in 2 days they will have eaten 3 leaves void of any N. I'm upping strength to 1.5 to see if they'll explode. I already upped the dosage to 1.25 and I swear she bushed out over night. Literally in 1 night. I've had to water 2 times in 3 days, never had to do that before, and humidity has stayed constant. I ran out of EWC but have access to them at the hydro store, just want to start making my own. I have an organically fed horse I can compost manure from and use the wormies to eat it with some citrus and other stuff. *HEALTHY FOOD WEB FTW*!!!


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## Rrog (Dec 5, 2012)

The molasses acidity would not affect anything at all. It's a simple carb. Honey has antibacterial properties. Everyone uses molasses.


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## Hemlock (Dec 5, 2012)

Great thread subd


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## dirtsurfr (Dec 5, 2012)

So I'm going to try this next year. One Q?? Since I used chemical ferts for 2 years in this soil is it saveable?
I always start with 5 gal worth of chicken compost, but is the soil shot now???


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## Rrog (Dec 5, 2012)

My opinion only: Start from scratch with new soil.


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## dirtsurfr (Dec 5, 2012)

It's out side and a full winters worth of rain and snow, that won't rinse out the salts??


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## Rrog (Dec 5, 2012)

Well then you're starting with who-knows-what. And if you're trying a grow with a natural living soil, then I'd think you'd want to start fresh. I really think you would be glad you did.


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## dirtsurfr (Dec 5, 2012)

I can get some real good soil from a part of town called Potato Flats.
It grows everything big and healthy, I can get all I want it's full of worms and alot of
soil comes from flood silt and composted plant matter.
How about that?


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## Rrog (Dec 5, 2012)

That sounds awesome! If they can tell you what's in it, post it so we can give opinions.


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## dirtsurfr (Dec 5, 2012)

Oh no this is an old farm called that but that was in the 50s. Now it's just farm ranch land'
I'LL be getting it from the tree line I'm sure it's a good building block to start??


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## Rrog (Dec 5, 2012)

That would have some great stuff, no doubt. Also look in a grassy field if you can. The microlife is different for the forest (fungal dominant) compared to grass (bacterially dominant). Both are valuable, but the grass soil moreso. Cannabis is close to a grass, or is a grass, I dunno. But grassy soil will have the microbes you want. I'd take a piece of sod with soil. The sod will keep living and keep certain bacteria and fungi (endomycorrhizal) from going dormant. I like a companion plant in the soil before I transplant a seed. That way the endomyco is already active when the seed first cracks. Again, if there is living root in the soil, all the microbes are fully functional and in full swing. Because the microbes are not dormant, they will swarm that tiny new sprout, plug in, and protect and feed. 

Fucking beautiful thing.


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## Jman305 (Dec 6, 2012)

Rrog said:


> The molasses acidity would not affect anything at all. It's a simple carb. Honey has antibacterial properties. Everyone uses molasses.


 Last time I used it, my pH came out very acidic, but I might have accidentally put too much fish emulsion in. I used honey in this tea I started brewing last night and a tsp of molasses. It doesn't seem to be affecting it negatively, I already have an inch of foam in under 12 hours. Smells very sweet, and its a lovely brown color. Thoughts?!


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## Rrog (Dec 6, 2012)

If it's living soil, you are not measuring or adjusting pH. The microbes control the pH and the plant controls the microbes


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## Sincerely420 (Dec 23, 2012)

Read thru this entire thread(for the most part) and would like to give a BIG +rep for the OP, and the vigilante few who've managed to keep it on topic I have a question for you guys tho:

I'm growing 3 plants right now and they're all really green and doing well @ Day 30.
I'm using an amended mix of FFOF and I'm watering with teas as well.

*I've been using 2 teas which I brew by the half gallon and share between 3 plants, in 3gal grow bags, every watering. *
After I've split 1/2g of tea between the 3 plants, I then water them with a 1/2 gal of water each. 
No RO or anything, just that I've let sit out a couple days.

My two veg. recipes are as follows
**Tea#1*
-1/4cup Wiggle Worms Earthworm castings 1-0-0
-1tsp Algamin Kelp Meal 1-0-2
per 1/2 gallon.
**Tea#2*
-1/4cup Wiggle Worms Earthworm castings 1-0-0
-1tsp Algamin Kelp Meal 1-0-2
-1tsp Neptune Harvest Liquid Fish 2-4-1

*To brew aerate the teas I've been using a 10gal fish tank pump, and bubbling for up to 24hours.*
I've found that more than a day and the liquid fish and kelp start to smell extra fishy, so I keep the hours down.

My results have been outstanding as I'll get around to a journal here soon! But my setup goes again what I've read over and over again in different forums and books because I'm brewing such a small quanity. 
My logic...I've amended my soil well enough with different amendments and I don't wanna over do it...So better to be safe than sorry..I can always add more(even tho it's said theres no overdoing the teas)

*EVERYTHING is green*, so I feel like I'm on the right path. But I've read *NOTHING* at all about brewing by the gallon or smaller...
Which brings me to ask, anyone else in this boat?
I don't think i'm wasting my time based on my results...But I just wanted so opinions on what I've got goin'

Thanks in advance ladies and gents


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## Rrog (Dec 23, 2012)

You've got a compost tea action goin on! Very cool! I'd mix it up a bit, though. The ACT is great, but 3-5 times during the plant's life. Great to start things up. 

Good basic recipe:

3TBS compost (EWC, preferred)
1/2 gallon water&#8232; 
3tsp molasses 
1/4tsp fish Hydrolysate
1tsp kelp meal 

NEXT:

I would look at the Barley Sprout Tea, with Coconut and Aloe. Watch what it does to the leaves. Use this as a foliar also, at night, and not to far into flower. This tea you can use weekly or bi-weekly. This will have hormones and plant enzymes your ACT won't have.

Barley Tea: 
2 tablespoons of Barley seeds (1 oz.) Soak for 12 hours. 
Drain that water and throw away. It&#8217;s full of growth inhibitors. 
Add 1/2 gallon of water to the sprouts for the 48 hour soak. 
Strain and use 1 cup of this to 1 gallon of water.


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## Sincerely420 (Dec 23, 2012)

Thx for the response Rrog. It's refreshing to hear.
I'll be able to get my hands on some molasses the day or so after Xmas, and add it to the mix for sure.

*I've been using a tsp kelp meal per...But I've read that it needs to go for 48hrs lots of places, and I've only been letting it aerate for a maximum of 24hrs so far*. I went a little longer than that once(maybe 36hrs) with the Neptune Harvest Liquid Fish added, and it started smelling as if things went anerobic.
*I figure since I brew by the 1/2gal with a 10gal fish tank pump, it shouldn't need a full 24hrs. Am I mistaken?*

And now that I'm thinking about it...*Do you think it would be a better idea to brew the teas stronger per 1/2gal and dilute them?
*That way I get more for less in a way*. Or would too much going into too little of water throw it all out of wack?*

I'll also do so looking into that Barley seed immediately. I haven't heard of it out of all the things I have. *I plan to pick up some Alfafa as well and try it out as a foliar. Read a lot of good things about it.*
In the grow space I've got the following on hand for tea use:
-Sun leaves Indonesian Bat-Guano(Hi-P sort)
-Wiggle Worms EWC
-Neptunes Harvest Liquid fish
-Algamin Kelp Meal
The only other thing I've got that might do me some good is some left over amended soil mix.
*I could prob. use that as an additional compost boost huh*? JUST NOW thought about that...
Thx for the spark of thought and the tips again. I'll be putting it to work here soon and posting a journal.


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## Rrog (Dec 24, 2012)

Seeds are embryos. Full of the necessary hormones and enzymes to kick a plant into gear. So by simply soaking the sprouts you extract huge goodness. Barley is easy. Get the seeds from a brewmaker place.

The best info on ACT: MicrobeOrganics.com Simple recipe is there. I would urge anyone to stick to the simple and not turbocharge the ACT. And use sparingly. It's a microbial shock to the system.


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## Rrog (Dec 24, 2012)

Sincerely420 said:


> ... would like to give a BIG +rep for the OP...


That would be the Trichome Fiend himself. Who I hollered at a year ago for posting the link to the free PDF of the book. A year later you'll notice the link to the book in my signature. Ultimately he was right and I was wrong. If you have a great message to help people, it shouldn't be kept in a paid-for book.


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## Cann (Dec 24, 2012)

Wow this thread is awesome...covers a lot of great topics. Props to trichome fiend, Rrog, BlueJ, and all those who are sharing this great info - keep spreading the knowledge!

So since it's wintertime and my teas are getting cold I decided to get an aquarium heater for my 5gal bucket. Problem is that the heater is preset and only heats to 78 degrees. Is this too hot? Ideally I think I would run it around 70 or 72...is 78 going to result in problems? Also, is watering my ladies with 78 degree water going to do anything? I feel like mary might enjoy a tropical tepid rain...


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## Rrog (Dec 24, 2012)

I would not think it would be a problem. Either the 78F Tea or the 78F water. My opinion.


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## Cann (Dec 24, 2012)

I trust your opinion 

Not to get off topic, but how about this Soil Mix:

10 bags Roots soil (15 cu. ft)

40lbs high quality EWC (roughly 1 cu. ft)

5lbs blood meal 12-0-0
3.5lbs guano 0-9-0
5lbs fish bone meal 3-18-0
1.5lbs alfalfa meal 2-1-2
2.5lbs kelp meal 0-001.5
4 cups neem seed meal 4-.5-.5
3/4 cup langbeinite 0-0-22 (also has epsomite - MgSO4·7H2O which provides 22% S and 10% Mg)
4 cups glacial rock dust 0-0-0 but contains 1.4% Ca, .5% Mg, 4% Fe, .09% Mn, and 1.2% Na (sodium??? isnt this bad? but I've read recipes with 4 cups of rock dust for each cuft of soil...)
1/2 cup azomite 0-0-.2 with 1.8% Ca, .1% Cl, .1% Na
1/2 cup Roots Elemental .25-.01-1 with 20% Ca, 2% Mg, 1% S, and .2% Fe
1 cup dolomite lime 0-0-0 22% Ca, 11% Mg
1/2 cup gypsum 0-0-0 20% Ca, 16% S (can you have too much S? getting a bit worried about that one as well...)
3/4 cup epsom salt 0-0-0 composed 100% of MgSO4·7H20, so 22% S, 11% Mg (wish I could've left this out altogether but its one of the first things I added before I knew about langbeinite etc.
4 cups diatomaceous earth 0-0-0 but has good long term silica, keeps bugs away, etc. 
4 cups organic basmati rice (fungi food)
3 tbs humic acid powder

i have crab shell meal and oyster shells...should I throw these in the mix as well. I would like to have some chitin...and oyster shells are good to build my soil for long term use/recycling...

what do you think? this if for the bottom 1/3 of the pots (it started out as subs recipe but i kept adding and changing amounts...)

also what is your current favorite mix?

thanks


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Dec 24, 2012)

Cann said:


> I trust your opinion
> 
> Not to get off topic, but how about this Soil Mix:
> 
> ...


It all sounds great bro, don't overthink yourself though.. Im sure you'll be fine organics isn't rocket science, you got the idea now learn through hands on experience; its different for everyone.


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## Rrog (Dec 24, 2012)

I'd bag the bagged soil and look at something like this:

Base Soil

1/3 Sphagnum Peat from Premier Peat or Alaska Peat
1/3 Aeration material (1 part Pumice, 1 part chunky coco)
1/3 Humus (1 part EWC, 1 part local / used topsoil, 1 part leaf litter, 1 part compost)

Per Cubic Foot of the Base Soil:

½ Cup DE
½ Cup Espoma Starter Plus
1 cup Charcoal
½ Cup Epsom Salt
4 cups Rock Powders (4X Glacial, 1X Bentonite, 1X Oyster Shell, 1X Basalt)

½ Cup Neem Meal (2 g / L)
1 Cup Crab Shell Meal
2 Cups Kelp Meal (Espoma makes it)
2 Cups Fish Meal
2 Cups Fish Bone Meal
1 Cup Sul-Po-Mag
½ Cup Alfalfa


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Dec 24, 2012)

Rrog said:


> I'd bag the bagged soil and look at something like this:
> 
> Base Soil
> 
> ...


Cool! Is this recipe for outdoor or indoor grows?


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## Rrog (Dec 24, 2012)

Could work for either. I'm mixing large quantities for raised beds for vegetables. 

Also, this can easily be re-used by amending during the grow.


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## SurfdOut (Dec 24, 2012)

Nice recipe....don't want the lime? Spliff whats your soil recipe?


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Dec 24, 2012)

Rrog said:


> Also, this can easily be re-used by amending during the grow.


Of course it can, so whats your opinion on using different soils for your outdoor and indoor grows, their different enviorments arent they? So wouldnt it make sense that what works for you might not work for that guy, especially outdoor because im guessing you both live in different places? With different, humidty, pH, water, co2, different everything. What I'm getting at is what works for you might not work for me, or the other guy. You just gotta find out for yourself, through trial and error.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Dec 24, 2012)

SurfdOut said:


> Nice recipe....don't want the lime? Spliff whats your soil recipe?


Its recycled and ammended, never staying constant so I cant really say. Black gold,you should just use espom salts if you dont like lime, other than that i can't really help ya. . .


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## SurfdOut (Dec 24, 2012)

Oh I like the lime, breaks down faster than crab meal I believe, but still takes awhile...but I always let my mixes cook for a couple of months. Yeah, my soil mixes are always changin based on what I got lying around, just like my teas......hawaiin style


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## Rrog (Dec 24, 2012)

Personally? I don't think soil recipes change based on location. The soil recipe is heavy in aeration amendments though, which can be suitable inside or out as long as you have continuous water supply. 

What I do advocate, however, is to harvest and embrace your own local BIM. Beneficial Indigenous Microbes. Local bacteria and fungus. Your own local fungus and bacterial strains are optimized for your specific area. Just as you described, Spliff. 

Grab a scoop of local soil. Preferably a field with grasses. Also check the Gil C. link in my sig for harvesting other various local microbes.

The Crab Shell Meal I add is for the Chitin. Could be your leftover dried shrimp peels also. The Chitin attracts bacteria that eat soil larvae we don't want.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Dec 24, 2012)

Rrog said:


> Personally? I don't think soil recipes change based on location. .


I agree with everything in that post except this, yes if the soil is ammend with enough humus/lime/gypsum/oyster,crab,shell,ect it SHOULD buffer and balance your ph ect..(personally I live in hawaii so i throw an abundant amount of shell fish leftovers in my soil like you mentioned)..but back to point. Where I live theirs lots of volcanic activity, and acid rain, not to mention everyone is on an catchment water set up, and even the " best " tap water i ever measured here still had 200ppm, plenty of variables basically. Long story short, I agree with ya except on soil recipes dont vary with location(especially outdo) due to the info i just stated above. peace bro, thanks for the chat..


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## Cann (Dec 25, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies! Damn I love an active thread...

Rrog - This soil mix will be my last run using bagged soil as the base. I am already acquiring ingredients for the next mix and formulating recipes in my head. 

In my backyard I already have 6 cuft of peat (premier), 5 cuft of coco, a few cuft of pumice, a bunch of rice hulls (although im not sure i can use them). Is there are a reason you advocate perlite and vermiculite over pumice? I have read a lot of things advocating pumice over perlite etc. My only issue is a good humus source - my personal EWC won't be ready for a month or two, same with my compost pile. Maybe I can source some good local humus, if not can I use bagged alaska humus? Might take a drive up into the mountains and do some collecting...problem with so cal is that there isn't much readily available humus...oh how i miss the pacific northwest  Collecting BIM is also going to be a bit more difficult, but I'll make it work. About to get some rice out and start on some homemade EM-1....then i'll use that to inoculate my bokashi, which will go to my worms, etc. Next I just need to source nettle, comfrey, yarrow, etc down here...I have a yarrow spot in the mountains of idaho...and a thousand nettle spots in the greater seattle area....just can't imagine anywhere down here wet enough to support stands of nettle...anyone in so cal with advice? hard to follow true organics when you are surrounded by a synthetic environment! Called so many stores today where employees didn't know what rice hulls were.....oh boy. 

So heres the deal with the rice hulls I have currently - The only place I was able to source them locally was a feed store, they are sold as "Perma-Stall" proffesional bedding...anyway, all was well and I got 12cuft of rice hulls for $16....not bad at all in my book...but when I got the bags home and looked at the ingredients I was a little bit pissed at myself. The bags contain rice hulls, diatomaceous earth (which is no big deal - hell its in my mix already), and some stuff called Montmorillonite clay....when I looked up montmorillonite I found that it is a clay which absorbs a lot of water and is used as a clumping agent in kitty litter, stall bedding, etc. Should I use this stuff in soil??? Or is the clay going to cause me all sorts of issues? After opening the bag it just looks like rice hulls...so the clay must be a dust which is a tiny tiny percentage of the material overall...but I'm still worried its going to f*** up my soil. Anyone seen this before? Recommendations as to where I can source rice hulls elsewhere? ($40 for a 50lb bag from the brew store...too expensive..) Would be great to know ASAP cause I was gonna mix up some soil tomorrow... 

Agreed with Spliff that the mix should change based on location - for example my mix is designed to be used with RO water indoors - therefore it is very high in cal/mg amendments. If I were to water this mix with tap water I would probably get calcium or magnesium toxicity....

Speaking of my mix, do yall think I should add crab shell and oyster shell? maybe just a cup or two of each....? As long as the calcium takes more than a month or two to be released I will be perfect...anyone able to shed light on this? I just want that chitin as well as oyster shells for the bacteria/fungal advantages...


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Dec 25, 2012)

Cann said:


> ...anyway, all was well and I got 12cuft of rice hulls for $16....not bad at all in my book...but when I got the bags home and looked at the ingredients I was a little bit pissed at myself. The bags contain rice hulls, diatomaceous earth (which is no big deal - hell its in my mix already), and some stuff called Montmorillonite clay....when I looked up montmorillonite I found that it is a clay which absorbs a lot of water and is used as a clumping agent in kitty litter, stall bedding, etc. Should I use this stuff in soil??? Or is the clay going to cause me all sorts of issues? After opening the bag it just looks like rice hulls...so the clay must be a dust which is a tiny tiny percentage of the material overall...but I'm still worried its going to f*** up my soil. Anyone seen this before? Recommendations as to where I can source rice hulls elsewhere? ($40 for a 50lb bag from the brew store...too expensive..) Would be great to know ASAP cause I was gonna mix up some soil tomorrow...
> 
> 
> Speaking of my mix, do yall think I should add crab shell and oyster shell? maybe just a cup or two of each....? As long as the calcium takes more than a month or two to be released I will be perfect...anyone able to shed light on this? I just want that chitin as well as oyster shells for the bacteria/fungal advantages...


Your overthinking again Cann, lol. No that clay ain't going to matter, especially if you add more amendments to your soil (oyster/crab shell)you got such a range of amendments your on the borderline of causing some problems imo. I would go about mixing your soil tomorrow with the rice hulls you got and throw in a cup oyster and a cup crab shell, but i would not stick with those rice hulls in the long run find a different source


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## Rrog (Dec 25, 2012)

Cann, that was an older version of the soil recipe. Vermiculite and Perlite are out. Pumice is in. Sorry 'bout that!

If you're building soil from scratch, it's great to get some clay powders in there. Clay and Humus both create a high CEC for the soil. Bagged Alaska humus would work. Montmorillonite and Pyrophyllite Clay

I would add the charcoal. Its enormous surface area creates luxury condos for bacteria.

Too much DE makes mud. I'm dropping it in my mix. I initially added it for pest control. Now I get that from other items.

The crab shell, absolutely... for pest control. The oyster shell is great... for future grows. Takes so long to break down.

I'd pass on the rice hulls as Spliff suggested


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## WyoGrow (Dec 25, 2012)

trichome fiend said:


> ...sounds like your off to a good start. I'd go 50% green grass (keeping bacteria dominate), 25% brown leaf (needed fungi; carbon; helps buffer pH), 25% others....moisten and aerate the compost every 2 weeks, in 6 weeks your good to go! Check out this video, he keeps it simple.
> 
> [youtube]a-JqApyMaP4&feature[/youtube]


I use the this style to compost all of my garden waste. Not many people have the acreage I do so this my not help many. But here it goes.... I use these fence tubes to compost with awesome results. I usually have about 6-8 tubes going by fall and then pile all of them together to overwinter. I have a huge garden area where I rotate my crops. I also rotate where my compost tubes are situated. The soil the tubes sit on is just drenched with nutrient rich runoff for the entire time the tube sits on that particular plot of soil. This runoff attracts micro/macro soil dwelling flora & fauna. When I consolidate all of my separate compost piles into one big pile I leave about a 3" layer of compost in place at each spot and then cover the spot with 6" of whole tree mulch and let sit for the winter. The next spring I will rake off the mulch, double dig in the compost that was left and plant. These compost spots are kicking out 70 pound pumpkins, watermelons the size of a grade school kid..... even massive stands of corn (a very heavy feeding crop) after only one summers worth of compost sitting in that spot. My wife and I now plan a year ahead on what we want to plant where and put a compost tube in that spot to pre-treat the soil.


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## Rrog (Dec 25, 2012)

That's very interesting Wyo! Compost is the key. I've become enamored with vermicompost. Starting a worm "bin" this week


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## SurfdOut (Dec 25, 2012)

Great thread guys, everyhouse should have a worm bin.....


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## Rrog (Dec 25, 2012)

I agree Worms in every house!


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## SurfdOut (Dec 25, 2012)

Yeah, got really into it a couple of years back.....set up a big one for a restaurant when I lived on Oahu and got to use all the castings for my native plant nurseries...


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## WyoGrow (Dec 25, 2012)

My wife "grows" with me.... actually first hobby we have in common lol. Bought her a store bought (she hates my ugly, but effective, DIY contraptions) 5 tier worm composter for Christmas.


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## WyoGrow (Dec 25, 2012)

BTW, my prize pepper and tomato plants get a weekly watering comprised of nothing more than my weekly waste water from "vacuuming" the gravel from my fresh water aquariums. Nothing else added. A great source of nitrifying bacteria. These are the critters you need to take your soil components such as blood meal from a soil amendment to a plant usable nutrient.


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## Rising Moon (Dec 25, 2012)

I have had great success using TONS of oyster shells in my mix to reduce my use of perlite and vermiculite. I like the pumice idea a lot!

Tractor Supply sells 50 pound bags of the Oyster shells, and its a very reasonable price. I like that it is ground in all different sizes, from powder to little chunks.

But, it works best when you layer it in while building your compost pile, and gives the finished compost a beautiful look and structure. Preforming the function of PH balance, calcium influence and aeration.


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## WyoGrow (Dec 25, 2012)

Oyster is a huge part of my gardening. Chiefly because I have 50+ chickens at any time. Never thought to use it as a perlite substitute though. I've always ground it to a fine powder with a mortar and pestle and used it as a replacement for dolomite. My winter compost pile is put in my chicken run so they can pick, scratch, eat and poop through it all winter. I feed on top of the pile and scatter my oyster shell there as well. Chickens can move/process a lot of material if given a little time. The sifted compost/manure I pull out of there is the engine that drives my garden. It's like nitrous for plants.


for those looking for a good air pump. This badboy is a beast. Running for going on 2 years 24/7. Cranks out the air......
http://www.amazon.com/General-Hydroponics-Dual-Diaphragm-Pump/dp/B003AKRUSW/ref=sr_1_11?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1356461766&sr=1-11&keywords=hydrofarms+air+pump


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## Cann (Dec 25, 2012)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> Your overthinking again Cann, lol. No that clay ain't going to matter, especially if you add more amendments to your soil (oyster/crab shell)you got such a range of amendments your on the borderline of causing some problems imo. I would go about mixing your soil tomorrow with the rice hulls you got and throw in a cup oyster and a cup crab shell, but i would not stick with those rice hulls in the long run find a different source


Sounds good Spliff  I do tend to overthink things, so thanks for keeping me grounded  I know I have too many amendments...I would much rather have started from scratch at this point but it is what it is so I gotta let it play out. The problem is it started as a subs supersoil mix but then I realized I didn't necessarily want that...anyway I hope it doesn't cause any issues - what do you think could be a source of problems with this many amendments? 



Rrog said:


> Cann, that was an older version of the soil recipe. Vermiculite and Perlite are out. Pumice is in. Sorry 'bout that!
> 
> If you're building soil from scratch, it's great to get some clay powders in there. Clay and Humus both create a high CEC for the soil. Bagged Alaska humus would work. Montmorillonite and Pyrophyllite Clay
> 
> ...



Sounds good about the oyster and crab shell - I'll be adding those in a few hours when I mix soil again. I would love to add charcoal but not sure where to source it...wish I had a firepit in my yard  damn landlords! Anyway, where do you source your charcoal Rrog? Also, where would I go about getting bentonite and basalt for your rock dust mix? Might mix up a test cuft of your mix and run it side by side with a few others....

Also, after reading the chapter in Teaming with Microbes on rototilling I am debating whether or not turning the soil before use is a helpful practice...I know sub says he mixes his soil right before he puts it in the pots - but wouldn't this destroy many arthropods, fungal hyphae, etc. that the soil has been working on for the past 30+ days while cooking....? I think I might put 3/4 my mix in a trashcan, and the other 1/4 in pots to sit for the "cooking" period, to see if the "no-till" pots will perform better. The only thing I am worried about is that there won't be enough volume of soil in the pots to "cook" properly...similar to how a compost pile needs to be a certain size - but then again its not heat we're looking for in the "cooking" of the soil...anyone tried this before? Or think it would/wouldn't work for a specific reason?


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## Rrog (Dec 25, 2012)

Charcoal- You can get lump hardwood charcoal and bust it up. I use my spent carbon from my carbon filter. Make sure and "activate" it, turning it to Biochar or it can such the N from your soil for a while. I'd use 2-3 cups per 5 gallon pot.

Clay Powders: www.PortlandPottery.com Montmorillonite and Pyrophyllite Clays.

Glacial Rock	www.gaiagreen.com

Double checking the sourcing of the rest of the rock powders. These rock powders are like shell meal, in that they more benefit future generations of plants from this soil.


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## Cann (Dec 26, 2012)

Can you elaborate on this "activation" process for charcoal? 

And any thoughts on the "no-till" pots idea?

I mixed up a few soils today...will post recipes later once I get some sleep 

Thanks for all your help


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## Cann (Dec 26, 2012)

Rising Moon said:


> I have had great success using TONS of oyster shells in my mix to reduce my use of perlite and vermiculite. I like the pumice idea a lot!
> 
> Tractor Supply sells 50 pound bags of the Oyster shells, and its a very reasonable price. I like that it is ground in all different sizes, from powder to little chunks.
> 
> But, it works best when you layer it in while building your compost pile, and gives the finished compost a beautiful look and structure. Preforming the function of PH balance, calcium influence and aeration.



So by TONS, what would be a rough estimate of shell/cuft in the soil mix? Just wondering what your idea of tons is lol because mine might be a bit overboard...

Thanks


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## Rrog (Dec 26, 2012)

I totally support the No-Till method. Absolutely. For many reasons.

For aeration amendments, I'd stick with the Pumice.

You can soak the char in water with some EWC and Alfalfa overnight, then drain. That will populate the char with microbes as well as N


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## WyoGrow (Dec 26, 2012)

Currently I am using the "back to Eden" gardening method. Really it's just continuous deep mulching method. It will be a few years before I really see the benefits of it take off. I use whole tree mulch mixed with manure, cottonseed hulls, fine cedar fiber, mushroom compost & premilled (finely chopped for use in making alfalfa cubes for livestock) alfalfa. In a few years the bottom layer will have completely broken down into rich soil. Every year you add a couple inches of the mulch mix to add back what has been broken down. As rain and irrigation water leeches down through the mulch it turns into a compost tea of sorts and soaks into the ground below. No tilling. dig out a spot to bare soil, break that spot with a spade, plant and backfill the dug out mulch once the plant is big enough. After a few years I won't even be planting in the original soil. I'll be growing straight into the rich broken down humus. Best of all I get all of my whole tree mulch for free.


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## Rrog (Dec 26, 2012)

Great Stuff Wyo!


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## WyoGrow (Dec 26, 2012)

I like you guys so instead of making a post out in the general organics forum I'll hijack this thread for a second. I am wanting to go with a 100% organic AACT fed coco soilless mix for my bonsai mothers. I'll list the ingredients I have on hand and lets see what differing mixes you guys dream up.

I of course have coco coir for my base then:
perlite
vermiculite
EWC
greensand
soft rock phosphate
dolomite lime
alfalfa meal
blood meal
bone meal
crab meal
crushed oyster shell
azomite (rock dust)
cottonseed meal
humic acid
Jamaican bat guano
homemade yard compost
aged horse/cow/sheep manure
chicken manure
mushroom compost
Kelp meal

For my soil inoculants I have:
Great White myco
Azo extreme nitrogen fixing bacteria
Age Old Organics root rally
Age Old Organics water soluble myco

What would you organic doctors whip up with what I have on hand??


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## Cann (Dec 26, 2012)

I am not a soil expert by any means  but I have a bunch of coco and was thinking about doing this myself....here is what I was going to do:

Break up my coco, add 30-40% perlite (pumice would be better), and 25% good humus (EWC, compost, mushroom compost, etc)

To this mix, I would amend as follows:

Per cu.ft of above mix:

1/2 cup greensand
1/4 cup soft rock phosphate
1 1/2 cups dolomite
1 cup alfalfa meal
1/2 cup blood meal
1 cup bone meal
1 cup crab meal
1 cup oyster shell
1/2 cup azomite
1/2 cup cottonseed meal
a sprinkle of humic acid
1/4 cup guano
1/2 cup kelp meal

+ some aged manure if you really feel inclined, probably 2 or 3 cups


Then i'd sprinkle in a bunch of myco inoculants, and let it cook. Not sure how effective the N fixing bacteria will be unless your soil is above pH 7...but you have them so might as well throw em in...

This is very similar to the Rev's recipe in TLO, but instead of coco he uses a mix which is 25% soil 25% coco 25% perlite 25% humus (EWC, compost). I imagine you will have very similar results. 

Good luck, and thanks for showin this thread some love 


Also - that "Back to eden" style of gardening is great! Sheet mulch on sheet mulch on sheet mulch is the way to go! Never have to disturb the soil, and soon enough you will have an extremely rich layer of topsoil that will just keep getting better  I remember reading about the "Ultimate sheet mulch" in Gaia's Garden - a home permaculture book - and thinking to myself that sheet mulch is the ideal way to tend a yard. Glad to see someone putting it into practice - if only I was sedentary enough to start building soils years in advance....  damn rental properties....

Keep up the good work Wyo!


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## WyoGrow (Dec 26, 2012)

Google "back to eden video". It's about an hour long. If you can put up with the religious aspect of it the method is pretty convincing.


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## WyoGrow (Dec 26, 2012)

Planting a "tea garden" this year as well. Specifically for feeding my plants. 

Stinging Nettle
Yarrow
Comfery 
Chamomile 
Dandelion
Alfalfa


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## Cann (Dec 26, 2012)

YES! I planted a medicinal garden last year at my place of work  now I just need something at my house....

Where did you source these seeds? Or are you planting from starts? I'm looking for a source of all of those plants (except dandelion maybe)...much easier if I could just grow my own....

I imagine alfalfa, chamomile, and comfrey seeds are fairly easy to come by...but yarrow? nettle? I know wild sources but unfortunately I'm hundreds of miles away from those currently.

Do you own the book _Permaculture: A designers manual_ by Bill Mollison? If not, you sound like the type of person who needs a copy...lol

That text is my bible...


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## WyoGrow (Dec 26, 2012)

Look on Amazon.

Don't be scared of dandelion. It's a amazing plant. Great for salad greens. Good adjunct additive in beer brewing.


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## BeaverHuntr (Dec 27, 2012)

Hey guys is it safe to brew compost tea in a cold area? I live in Phoenix and its not freezing but night time temps get into the low 40's-high 30's and my compost tea brews in my garage so say its about 10 degrees warmer in the garage. Is that too cold ???


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## Rrog (Dec 27, 2012)

I would say too cold. You're looking for a rapid multiplication of the microbes, but they're not going to multiply fast if really cold. Optimal temps are in 70s, as a reference.


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## BeaverHuntr (Dec 27, 2012)

Rrog said:


> I would say too cold. You're looking for a rapid multiplication of the microbes, but they're not going to multiply fast if really cold. Optimal temps are in 70s, as a reference.


Yeah thats what I figured.. I was a hydro grower for years and knew that if my water was above 70 I'd run into problems like root rot, so I kinda figured I needed to make my tea in the 70's so the micro life would not die off.


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## Cann (Dec 27, 2012)

Aquarium heaters work amazing to keep your teas warm - go to a local pet store and they are like $15 - will keep your water hovering around 75-80 degrees. This is what I do to combat winter temps and it works great


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## BeaverHuntr (Dec 27, 2012)

Cann said:


> Aquarium heaters work amazing to keep your teas warm - go to a local pet store and they are like $15 - will keep your water hovering around 75-80 degrees. This is what I do to combat winter temps and it works great


Damn I was a hydro grower for years and totally forgot about that. Being in AZ its the opposite. Trying to keep your res cool!! lol


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## NickNasty (Dec 27, 2012)

Yeah my veg room was in the 60's where my tea brewer is and I got zero foam in like 3 days as soon as I brought in a heater to bring my room temps up my tea started foaming.


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## WyoGrow (Dec 28, 2012)

If you go the aquarium heater route make sure to spend the extra cash and get a stainless steel heater. You won't have an oop and then a cuss fest with those. They also seem to last a lot longer. Stuff that sticks to a heater will cause hotspots on the element cover..... if it's glass you run a good chance of the temp differential will cause glass to crack. Had many a cheap heat bust on my. Got sick of buying new ones. Have had the same stainless heater for going on 7 years now.


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## BeaverHuntr (Dec 28, 2012)

WyoGrow said:


> If you go the aquarium heater route make sure to spend the extra cash and get a stainless steel heater. You won't have an oop and then a cuss fest with those. They also seem to last a lot longer. Stuff that sticks to a heater will cause hotspots on the element cover..... if it's glass you run a good chance of the temp differential will cause glass to crack. Had many a cheap heat bust on my. Got sick of buying new ones. Have had the same stainless heater for going on 7 years now.



Ahh thanks for the heads up, I purchased a 40 dollar 100W heater , but it's glass.. I wont have to use it very long because I live in AZ and winter temps dont last very long. Got this at Petsmart but I double checked my tea brewing before I left this morning and there was a good amount of foam and the water felt about 70 degrees.


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## trichome fiend (Dec 29, 2012)

WyoGrow said:


> Currently I am using the "back to Eden" gardening method. Really it's just continuous deep mulching method. It will be a few years before I really see the benefits of it take off. I use whole tree mulch mixed with manure, cottonseed hulls, fine cedar fiber, mushroom compost & premilled (finely chopped for use in making alfalfa cubes for livestock) alfalfa. In a few years the bottom layer will have completely broken down into rich soil. Every year you add a couple inches of the mulch mix to add back what has been broken down. As rain and irrigation water leeches down through the mulch it turns into a compost tea of sorts and soaks into the ground below. No tilling. dig out a spot to bare soil, break that spot with a spade, plant and backfill the dug out mulch once the plant is big enough. After a few years I won't even be planting in the original soil. I'll be growing straight into the rich broken down humus. Best of all I get all of my whole tree mulch for free.



...nice! I've been doing the same for a couple years now...I posted pics somewhere early in this thread of my plot....my inspiration was a woman by the name of Ruth Stout...she has books and used to have videos on youtube....here's some of her words. I'll be posting more pics of my veggie garden this year soon....stick around  

...some words from Ruth:
My no-work gardening method is simply to keep a thick mulch of any vegetable matter that rots on both my vegetable and flower garden all year round. As it decays and enriches the soil, I add more. The labor-saving part of my system is that I never plow, spade, sow a cover crop, harrow, hoe, cultivate, weed, water or spray. I use just one fertilizer (cottonseed or soybean meal), and I don't go through that tortuous business of building a compost pile.
I beg everyone to start with a mulch 8 inches deep; otherwise, weeds may come through, and it would be a pity to be discouraged at the very start. But when I am asked how many bales (or tons) of hay are necessary to cover any given area, I can't answer from my own experience, for I gardened in this way for years before I had any idea of writing about it, and therefore didn't keep track of such details.
However, I now have some information on this from Dick Clemence, my A-Number-One adviser. He says, "I should think of 25 50-pound bales as about the minimum for 50 feet by 50 feet, or about a half-ton of loose hay. That should give a fair starting cover, but an equal quantity in reserve would be desirable." That is a better answer than the one I have been giving, which is: You need at least twice as much as you would think.
[h=3]What Should I Use for Mulch?[/h]Spoiled or regular hay, straw, leaves, pine needles, sawdust, weeds, garbage  any vegetable matter that rots.
[h=3]Don't Some Leaves Decay Too Slowly?[/h]No, they just remain mulch longer, which cuts down on labor.

*Don't they mat down?* If so, it doesn't matter because they are between the rows of growing things and not on top of them.

*Can one use leaves without hay?* Yes, but a combination of the two is better, I think.

*What is spoiled hay?* It's hay that for some reason isn't good enough to feed livestock. It may have, for instance, become moldy  if it was moist when put in the haymow  but it is just as effective for mulching as good hay, and a great deal cheaper.

*Shouldn't the hay be chopped? *Well, I don't have mine chopped and I don't have a terrible time  and I'm 76 and no stronger than the average person. 
*Can you use grass clippings?* Yes, but unless you have a huge lawn or have neighbors who will collect them for you, they don't go very far.
[h=3]How Do You Sow Seeds into the Mulch?[/h]You plant exactly as you always have, in the Earth. You pull back the mulch and put the seeds in the ground and cover them just as you would if you had never heard of mulching.
[h=3]Isn't It Bad to Mulch with Hay That May Be Full of Weed Seeds?[/h]If the mulch is thick enough, the weeds can't come through it.
One man in a group I addressed was determined not to let me get away with claiming that it was all right to throw a lot of hay full of grass seeds on one's garden, and the rest of the audience was with him. I was getting nowhere and was bordering on desperation, when, finally, I asked him:
"If you were going to make a lawn, would you plant the grass seed and then cover it with several inches of hay?" Put that way, he at last realized that a lot of hay on top of tiny seeds would keep them from germinating.
However, it's true that you can lay chunks of baled hay between the rows of vegetables in your garden and, in a wet season, have a hearty growth of weeds right on top of the hay. To kill unwanted weeds all you need do is turn over the chunk of hay. Now, this isn't much of a job but some ardent disciples of my system are capable of getting indignant with me (in a nice way, of course) because they are put to that bother. I have relieved them of all plowing, hoeing, cultivating, weeding, watering, spraying and making compost piles; how is it that I haven't thought of some way to avoid this turning over of those chunks of hay?
[h=3]How Can You Safely Plant Little Seeds Between 8-inch Walls of Mulch?[/h]One can't, of course, but almost before one gets through spreading it, the mulch begins to settle and soon becomes a 2- or 3-inch compact mass rather than an 8-inch fluffy one. It will no doubt be walked on, and rain may come; in any case, it will settle. As a matter of fact you won't need 8 inches to start if you use solid chunks of baled hay.
[h=3]Many People Want to Know Why I Don't Use Manure and What I Have Against It[/h]I have nothing at all against it; in fact, I have a somewhat exaggerated respect for it. But I no longer need it; the ever-rotting mulch takes its place.
I sort of complained, in my first book, that no one ever wrote an ode to manure, and through the years since then at least a half-dozen people have sent me poems they composed about manure piles.
I have been asked over and over if such things as sawdust and oak leaves should be avoided, the idea being that they make the soil too acidic. I use sawdust, primarily around raspberries, with excellent results. We have no oak trees, therefore I can't answer that question from experience, but I certainly wouldn't hesitate to use them; then, if it turned out that they were making the soil acidic, I would add some wood ashes or lime. I've had reports from a great many gardeners who have used both sawdust and oak leaves over their entire garden and have found them satisfactory.

*How Often Do You Put on Mulch? *

Whenever you see a spot that needs it. If weeds begin to peep through anywhere, just toss an armful of hay on them. What time of year do you start to mulch? The answer is _now_, whatever the date may be, or at least begin to gather your material. At the very least give the matter constructive thought at one; make plans. If you are intending to use leaves, you will unfortunately have to wait until they fall, but you can be prepared to make use of them the moment they drop. Should you spread manure and plow it under before you mulch? Yes, if your soil isn't very rich; otherwise, mulch alone will answer the purpose.
[h=3]How Far Apart Are the Rows?[/h]Exactly the same distance as if you weren't mulching  that is, when you begin to use my method. However, after you have mulched for a few years, your soil will become so rich from rotting vegetable matter that you can plant much more closely than one dares to in the old-fashioned way of gardening.
[h=3]How Long Does the Mulch Last?[/h]That depends on the kind you use. Try always to have some in reserve, so that it can replenished as needed.
[h=3]Now for the Million Dollar Question: Where Do You Get Mulch?[/h]That's difficult to answer but I can say this: If enough people in any community demand it, I believe that someone will be eager to supply it. At least that's what happened within a distance of 100 miles or so of us in Connecticut, and within a year after my book came out, anyone in that radius could get all the spoiled hay they wanted at 65 cents a bale.
If you belong to a garden club, why can't you all get together and create a demand for spoiled hay? If you don't belong to a group, you probably at least know quite a few people who garden and who would be pleased to join the project.
Use all the leaves you can find. Clip your cornstalks into footlength pieces and use them. Utilize your garbage, tops of perennials, any and all vegetable matter that rots. In many localities, the utility companies grind up the branches they cut off when they clear the wires; and often they are glad to dump them near your garden, with no charge. But hurry up before they find out that there is a big demand for them and they decide to make a fast buck. These wood chips make a splendid mulch; I suggest you just ignore anyone who tells you they are too acidic.
Recently, a man reproached me for making spoiled hay so popular that he can no longer get it for nothing. The important fact, however, is that it has become available and is relatively cheap. The other day a neighbor said to me, "Doesn't it make you feel good to see the piles of hay in so many yards when you drive around?" It does make me feel fine.
Now and then I am asked (usually by an irritated expert) why I think I invented mulching. Well, naturally, I don't think so; God invented it simply by deciding to have the leaves fall off the trees once a year. I don't even think that I'm the first, or only person, who thought up my particular variety of year-round mulching, but apparently I'm the first to make a big noise about it  writing, talking, demonstrating. And since in the process of spreading this great news, I have run across many thousands who never heard of the method, and a few hundred who think it is insane and can't possibly work, and only two people who had already tried it, is it surprising that I have carelessly fallen into the bad habit of sounding as though I thought I originated it?


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## Rrog (Dec 29, 2012)

Here's Ruth's little book: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/QR/QRToC.html


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## trichome fiend (Dec 29, 2012)

Rrog said:


> Here's Ruth's little book: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/QR/QRToC.html


...awesome man! 
R.I.P. Ruth, your words are living on today baby..."the mulch queen!"  ...we love you!


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## Rrog (Dec 29, 2012)

My current thought process is Vermicompost. I take my household scraps and turn it to Bokashi. I have two 30 gallon Smart Pots on a little raised wire platform with Red Wigglers. Started with used soil and I add the Bokashi off to the side so the worms can go get it as they want it. 

I'm turning my table scraps into the best compost available. I plan to add the following to the worm smart pots:

Alfalfa 
Kelp Meal 
Neem Meal 
Karanja meal 
Manure or compost	
Comfrey 
Yarrow 
Horsetail Ferns	
Stinging Nettles	
Fish Meal 
Fish Bone Meal	
Flaxseed Meal 
Rock Dusts
- Glacial Rock	
- Bentonite	
- Oyster Shell	
- Basalt 
Agsil 16 
Crab Meal powder	
Clay Powders ** 

** Montmorillonite and Pyrophyllite

So when fully composted in a couple months, the EWC will be heavily amended and great for top-dressing.


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## Cann (Dec 29, 2012)

Wow...that EWC is going to be insane my friend...highest quality castings I could imagine for real....

And how did you start up your bokashi? Did you buy bran or just use EM-1 to start a culture? I'm looking to start a bokashi bucket ASAP


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## Rrog (Dec 29, 2012)

Prokashi.com I bought two buckets to rotate through and a gallon bag of his inoculated bran. At some point I'm going to make my own using locally collected BIMs . See the link in my sig that talks about it. Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms. I'm not into buying microbes except predatory bacteria and fungi. My local microbes are at the top of the local microbial food chain. The store-bought microbes are not at the top of my food chain. They may have been at the top of someone else's food chain, but not mine. My local BIMs, through natural selection, are by definition the best for doing the job in my location. So I'd collect them, amplify them into a serum, and inoculate the bran, etc.


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## Cann (Dec 29, 2012)

God damn, tried to +rep you but "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rrog again". It'll come in due time 

Thanks for that, I'm bout to get started collecting some BIM, so I will probably use that to inoculate my bran. Trying to go as cheap as possible right now, so I won't be buying bokashi buckets or inoculated bran or anything fancy - just using 5 gal home depot buckets and BIM hopefully.


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## Rrog (Dec 29, 2012)

You can use a pail within a pail. Drill some holes in the top pail. You want to get collecting fluid out of there. Done.

Buy bran at the local feed store for cheap. Collect the BIM and ferment the bran. Takes a month + dry time. Maybe buy a bag of inoculated bran just so you can get started.

I like how the very best stuff you can provide a plant is so simple and cheap.


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## NickNasty (Dec 29, 2012)

Rrog I just read that worms have chitin in their skin and that the chitinase enzyme that the bacteria that eat chitin use to break it down can kill worms. So I would think twice before using the crab meal. Or at least if you find them dying you know why.

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/604708-chitin-chitoson-chitinase.html


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## Rrog (Dec 29, 2012)

Hey N2- I hear what you're saying, but crab shell meal is a very common and highly recommended amendment in soils and worm bins, specifically. I think the reason is that crab shell is made from the harder Alpha-chitin, and the worms (wormhairs actually) have the much softer Beta-chitin. Arthropods have the harder Alpha-Chitin, and I think it's likely that the crab shell meal is attracting specific Alpha-chitin related bacteria.

Again, worms thrive in crab shell amended compost, so there's gotta be a reason.


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## NickNasty (Dec 29, 2012)

Cool I just thought I would let you know because I didn't want you to ruin your worm bin as soon as you started it.


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## Rrog (Dec 29, 2012)

Ya! I had to go dig that info up to try and make some sense of it. I really appreciate it!


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Dec 29, 2012)

Rrog said:


> My current thought process is Vermicompost. I take my household scraps and turn it to Bokashi. I have two 30 gallon Smart Pots on a little raised wire platform with Red Wigglers. Started with used soil and I add the Bokashi off to the side so the worms can go get it as they want it.
> 
> I'm turning my table scraps into the best compost available. I plan to add the following to the worm smart pots:
> 
> ...


Thats pretty much what I do to but with less amendments. I just add the usual suspects, nothing wrong with either way its just I don't see that much of a difference for the amount of extra work I was putting into my garden. It started to became an everyday job maintaining and keeping up with everything, it got pretty outta hand lol. Now I just keep it simple and am very content with the results.


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## Rrog (Dec 30, 2012)

I'll be building soil starting with 1/3 Sphagnum, 1/3 pumice, 1/3 compost. Then many of the same amendments listed above. You buy a supply and it's a teaspoon here and there after that.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Dec 30, 2012)

That teaspoon is going to go a long way! My worm bin is literally black, with the occasional green scraps in it. The EWC my worms were making after digesting my home made bokashi was very light brown, with white specles it was crumbly and dusty. I just put a dime size pinch on my plants during flowering then around a month in I would add another pinch. Best fertilizer ever, I ended up giving a lot of it away to my friends because I was so proud of my creations, they all said it was the best stuff they used also. Good luck Rrog, it's hard work but hard work pays off.


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## Rrog (Dec 30, 2012)

Really looking forward to it, Spliff. Thanks for posting your great experience with this.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Dec 30, 2012)

No problem, look into throwing kmag in your worm bins also, had great results. . .
_
Spliff_


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## Cann (Jan 1, 2013)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> No problem, look into throwing kmag in your worm bins also, had great results. . .
> _
> Spliff_


How much kmag? got a half a box and would love to use some up by adding it to the worm feeding regimen  


Rrog - got a bag of inoculated bran in the mail, figured itd be faster this way even though its a bit more spendy...now a few questions about the biochar. I have a mix of spent carbon filter bits and hardwood lump charcoal that I smashed into pieces the size of a marble or smaller, it is currently soaking in some pantyhose in a 5gal bucket full of a few cups EWC and a few cups alfalfa meal. Should I just strain this tomorrow afternoon and add the charcoal to the soil mix? I have heard of others soaking for a few weeks in order to "activate" the biochar. Just want to make sure the charcoal isnt robbing nutes from the soil once it's added. 

Also, do you know of any soil mixes that don't necessarily need to "cook" before using? I know that every soil will benefit from sitting around for 30 or more days, but right now I am about 25 days away from usable soil and I need to transplant...don't necessarily want to keep planting in Roots 707 given how HUNGRY my ladies have been even if I feed them a ton of bottled nutes (which I am in the process of trying to use up for good...). I was thinking maybe just toss in a bit of alfalfa, crab, neem, and some glacial rock dust. Maybe charcoal as well, or kmag, or something lol. Is any of this stuff going to burn my ladies if they are already pretty mature (at least 12 inches tall)??? Would love to have your advice cause you definitely know what you are talking about when it comes to this stuff


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 1, 2013)

Dont know exactly, I rarely measure. I'm guessing you have a worm bin and not a big warm farm so I would just throw in around 1/2-2/3 of a cup, apply more as needed. If you don't got amended soil on hand I reccommend always having a bag of Happy Frog Tomato and Vegetable for veg mix and Happy Frog Fruit and Flower for bloom mix, follow directions on bag and add 1 cup lime to a cubic foot of soil. No cooking needed, and you can recycle this soil mix. Also you could follow directions at 1/2 and feed with tea's if you'd like to be more "hands on".


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## Rrog (Jan 2, 2013)

Cann, EWC should always be "cool" for the plants. Alfalfa is really hot. If it were me, I'd mix EWC .

The carbon is good to go after a couple days. This is a small process


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## Cann (Jan 3, 2013)

Perfect, thank you 

About to go add the final few ingredients to my recreation of your soil mix...pumped to see how it turns out. Do you use this as a hot mix similar to subs supersoil (only in the bottom of the pot) or do you plant straight into it? Also, do you know of any mixes that dont need to cook? I know that every mix will benefit from cooking, but looking to mix up a quick immediately usuable amended soil that won't burn - any suggestions? Maybe just toss a tiny bit of crab, neem, EWC, rock dust, kelp, and lime? Would love to hear what you have to say


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## NickNasty (Jan 3, 2013)

Cann said:


> Perfect, thank you
> 
> About to go add the final few ingredients to my recreation of your soil mix...pumped to see how it turns out. Do you use this as a hot mix similar to subs supersoil (only in the bottom of the pot) or do you plant straight into it? Also, do you know of any mixes that dont need to cook? I know that every mix will benefit from cooking, but looking to mix up a quick immediately usuable amended soil that won't burn - any suggestions? Maybe just toss a tiny bit of crab, neem, EWC, rock dust, kelp, and lime? Would love to hear what you have to say


I have used the Moonshine Mix recipe as my base soil and run it once before adding amendments < You do not have to wait for this to cook and it has a wide variety of stuff in it already. You could still add rock dust too it if you like.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=23970 

This is a great soil blend in my opinion to start with, It has great texture and really doesn't need much if any food. I would use roots instead on oceans forest nowadays because I always get gnats when I buy a bag of Ocean Forest.
I even noticed that Rare Dankness has this recipe on their site in the FAQ section on how to grow in soil.


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## gr865 (Jan 3, 2013)

Hey TF, 
I attended the SFW seminars in Oregon in the early 2000's, it was 5 days of intense class room work and some field work.
I was in the golf course business for 35 yrs and used organics about the last 20 yrs, ranging from org. nutes to compost tea, to anaerobic microbe applications. Used compost tea a lot and raised composting worms for most of those 20 yrs and used the worm casting for tea and to blended it with other compost for plantings.
I am here to say that it works. When I get my grow going I will be using organics when possible.

I highly recommend the SFW seminars, they are a bit costly but to me was well worth the cost.



GR8


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## Rrog (Jan 3, 2013)

Cann, if you're in a hurry, a fast three way mix of 1/3 sphagnum, 1/3 aeration amendment (pumice), and 1/3 EWC would work right away. Then add amendments through top dressing.

This is the beauty of feeding these amendments to the worms in your own worm bin. They're cool when you're ready for them.


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## Rising Moon (Jan 4, 2013)

Hello fellow Microbe enthusiasts!!!

I just wanted to share some photos I took of my buddy's plants... (I helped him get a TRUE living organic system set-up, and provided the compost and tea recipes)

These girls (Kandy Kush) are only fed herbal compost/ewc teas. Bedsides a little bit of Indonesian Guano in the soil mix, and a couple tbs. added to the flowering teas, these girls are mostly herbivores... (nettle, dandelion, yarrow, comfrey, horsetail, chamomile, alfalfa...)

11 weeks, beginning of flush, 2 weeks to go...


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## Rrog (Jan 4, 2013)

flush? What are you flushing?


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## Rising Moon (Jan 4, 2013)

My friend likes to stop feeding a couple weeks before chop and let a bit of leaf cannibalization happen....

Leach out the salts, chlorophyll ect...

Our teas still have salts in them, and thus, we have found the resulting "extra" flushed herb smoked better, cures faster, smells better ect.


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## Rrog (Jan 4, 2013)

How are you stopping feeding in soil? The soil microbes are still alive and working. You mean you stop with the teas? You realize flushing soil is a complete waste? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.


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## Rising Moon (Jan 4, 2013)

The soil mix these plants are growing in is mainly supplemented with minerals, and all the major nutrients are added via herbal teas.

By, "flushing" in this sense I mean, we are no longer feeding teas, just RO water, with the intention of leaching out the excess salts ect.


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 4, 2013)

I would have been with you a couple months ago Rrog, but I've come to learn pretty much the same thing.
We can't technically flush our crop growing organically, but we can rinse the soil essentially flushing it of old build up.
So this flush doesn't really work the same way as it would using bottled nutes. Kinda sorta, but not really.
Someone should coin the term "organic soil flush" or something lol! It would save a lot of discussion 

Tho i did think that the chlorophyll had any place in this equation. I've come to learn(at this point) that you only rinse the build up out that's consistent with the ferts you put in it...I'm not the bud God tho. Just my understanding at this point


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## Rrog (Jan 4, 2013)

What "_old build up_" would there be? 

_"You only rinse the buildup that's consistent with the ferts you put in."_ Are these bottled items? Otherwise you wouldn't want to wash out things like EWC, compost, kelp, etc. And any half descent soil is going to have a high compost content, which will lock cations and plant enzymes pretty well. You won't wash that away.


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## Rrog (Jan 4, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> The soil mix these plants are growing in is mainly supplemented with minerals, and all the major nutrients are added via herbal teas.
> 
> By, "flushing" in this sense I mean, we are no longer feeding teas, just RO water, with the intention of leaching out the excess salts ect.


Ah, so the initial soil, is more of a medium, then. Or are supplementing only for a month or so because the soil would run out of N or such? What would be an example of one of these teas?


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 4, 2013)

Rrog said:


> What "_old build up_" would there be?
> 
> _"You only rinse the buildup that's consistent with the ferts you put in."_ Are these bottled items? Otherwise you wouldn't want to wash out things like EWC, compost, kelp, etc. And any half descent soil is going to have a high compost content, which will lock cations and plant enzymes pretty well. You won't wash that away.


So...first off I'm not sold on anything really. But I've read a lot and things stick to my mind and this was one of those things.
I'm growing organic w/ an amended bag of FFOF. I cut it with Hi-P bat guano, rock dust, tomato tone, kelp meal, greensand, a hi-cal lime, EWCs and perlite. 
My compost content consists of the FFOF compost and added EWCs. Are you saying that's enough to lock up everything that I've added to it?
I was thinking I'd go water only for that last month with added molasses, then heavy water(during waterings) only the last couple weeks.
And I would do so to wash out any build-up. Are you saying that's pointless?


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## Rising Moon (Jan 4, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Ah, so the initial soil, is more of a medium, then. Or are supplementing only for a month or so because the soil would run out of N or such? What would be an example of one of these teas?


To a certain extent yes. Basically a super soil, without animal by-products, and more diversity of mineral based supplementation and added beneficials.

An example Veg tea would be as follows (per 2 gallons of water):
-1/4 cup dried Alfalfa, 1/4 cup dried Stinging Nettle, 1/4 cup dried Comfrey, 1/4 dried Dandelion Leaves, 1/4 cup dried Horsetail, 1/4 cup dried Chamomile, 1/4 cup dried Red Clover Flower, 1/4 cup dried Yarrow. (or 2 cups dried herbs) 
-1 cup homemade compost/vermicompost
-1 cup homemade leaf mold
-30 ML "Age Old Kelp" (0.30-0.25-0.15)
-2 tbs. Molasses

Bubbled for 24-36 hours.


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 4, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Ah, so the initial soil, is more of a medium, then. Or are supplementing only for a month or so because the soil would run out of N or such? What would be an example of one of these teas?


I was thinking in the same terms.
I've used a couple teas thus far.

Brewing by the 1/2gal using 10gal fish tank pump for 24hrs:

4tbsp EWCs
3tbsp my amended soil
1tsp Hi-P bat guano
_________________
4tbsp EWCs
1tbsp kelp meal
1tsp Neptunes harvest liquid fish
__________________________

4tbsp EWCs
1tbsp kelp meal
_____________

Those three I've used so far.
Planning to add molasses to the mix with the next watering in about 4 days.

I amended the FFOF and cycled it for a bit before I potted up, so I don't expect to run out of juice...I used about 3 cups total between all those amendments and additives that i listed above per the giant bag of FFOF.


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 4, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> To a certain extent yes. Basically a super soil, without animal by-products, and more diversity of mineral based supplementation and added beneficials.
> 
> An example Veg tea would be as follows (per 2 gallons of water):
> -1/4 cup dried Alfalfa, 1/4 cup dried Stinging Nettle, 1/4 cup dried Comfrey, 1/4 dried Dandelion Leaves, 1/4 cup dried Horsetail, 1/4 cup dried Chamomile, 1/4 cup dried Red Clover Flower, 1/4 cup dried Yarrow. (or 2 cups dried herbs)
> ...


Just finished typing my response and saw yours haha. Guess I was thinking in the ballpark


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## Rrog (Jan 4, 2013)

Interesting stuff. So of all those amendments listed, which are you trying to flush out?


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 4, 2013)

any accrued buildup from the combination. None in particular I'd say


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## Rrog (Jan 4, 2013)

Ah. Well, I guess I'm back to saying it's not worth doing or accomplishing much. There's just nothing bad to wash away. I can certainly see Rising Moons point of stopping those really excellent amendments -  - a couple weeks before chop, however. 

When I'm looking at soil (my opinion only) I'm looking to re-use it right away. So I want the soil and microbial community in tact and at peak performance. Because after I chop I'll be re-planting next to it right away. And continue with the amendments, and so on.

You guys should check out the second link in my sig. Maybe you have read Teaming With Microbes already.


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## Rrog (Jan 4, 2013)

Do either of you have access to those plants live during the summer? If you do the same thing with fresh plants and use immediately, you'll capture a host of secondary metabolites and plant enzymes that degrade over time if not applied to the plant / soil quickly. 

Also check out the barley tea mentioned a while back. Crazy levels of plant growth hormones. Try coconut water. More of the same. Try aloe. Very simple teas with extraordinary firepower you can't get in a bottle.


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## Cann (Jan 4, 2013)

Rrog - how do you use Aloe in your teas? Picked me up a bottle recently and I want to start incorporating it into the program. Also I have a case of coconut water...are we talking the kind you get at a health food store???


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## Rrog (Jan 4, 2013)

That coconut water will work.

Aloe Vera Tea - From the fresh leaves you only want to add about 2 tablespoons to 1 gallon of water.

Aloe vera contains high levels of Benzoic acid which begins to ferment in less than 20 minutes once it's exposed to air, so you have to use immediately. Commercial Aloe vera juice is treated with salt which converts this acid to Sodium Benzoate. not good.


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## Cann (Jan 5, 2013)

Hmm...alright well this is what I have - http://www.lilyofthedesert.com/our_products/item/preservative-free-whole-leaf-aloe-vera-juice/8

Luckily I havent opened it yet...but it says there are no preservatives, and the only other ingredient is Citric acid (which it says is a pH stabilizer - unsure about this?). Nowhere on the bottle does it indicate that salt was used...do you think it still was? I definitely don't want to use it if it could have a negative effect, and I could scrounge around my neighborhood at night and get a few healthy pieces of aloe  so if that is ideal I will return the bottle and get to harvesting...

Do i just water with 100% coconut water or should it be diluted? Thanks so much, all of this is helping me way more than you know....


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 5, 2013)

Fresh Aloe would be much better, then skin and filet it like a fish lol. I'm going to try this, thanks Rrog.


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## Cann (Jan 5, 2013)

a nice gooey aloe filet for the ladies. sounds great. thanks spliff


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 5, 2013)

_Sure thing!_ Im going with the suggestion of using when I transplant, maybe once on my first transplant in veg.


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## Rrog (Jan 5, 2013)

It can be used as a rooting gel. The benefits of Aloe to plants is crazy. It stimulates the plant's natural immune response. SAR Systemic Acquired Resistance. The secondary metabolites of these super simple little Teas really keep the plants immune system in tip top shape, and on alert. This drops the reaction time to squat if there might be a pathogen or pest arriving. 

If you do the aloe, coconut or Barley sprout teas, please try them as a foliar also. Beneficial bacteria, nematodes, fungi should be alive and well in the Phyloshphere. 

Not sure if the coconut water has any added water, but if it were straight coconut water right fromthe coconut, you'd use a 1:15 dilution. 1 cup to make 1 gallon


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 5, 2013)

Rrog said:


> It can be used as a rooting gel.


Have you ever used Aloe to root cannabis cuts? If so, how effective is it? I know of people doing this with their vegetables, and I'm curious because as of now Clonex is the only thing that ain't organic in my garden.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 5, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Not sure if the coconut water has any added water, but if it were straight coconut water right fromthe coconut, you'd use a 1:15 dilution. 1 cup to make 1 gallon


Next time I go to the beach I'm going to grab some; thanks bro far out! So 1 cup of coconut water to a gallon of water? I'll feed the coconut meat to my worms, which will be dessert for them haha


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## Rrog (Jan 5, 2013)

Spliff, I myself don't do cuttings, but one of the gentlemen in my signature does. 

I'd add a cup of coconut water to a gallon jug, then fill it to a gallon with water


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## Snafu1236 (Jan 6, 2013)

Rrog said:


> It can be used as a rooting gel. The benefits of Aloe to plants is crazy. It stimulates the plant's natural immune response. SAR Systemic Acquired Resistance. The secondary metabolites of these super simple little Teas really keep the plants immune system in tip top shape, and on alert. This drops the reaction time to squat if there might be a pathogen or pest arriving.
> 
> If you do the aloe, coconut or Barley sprout teas, please try them as a foliar also. Beneficial bacteria, nematodes, fungi should be alive and well in the Phyloshphere.
> 
> Not sure if the coconut water has any added water, but if it were straight coconut water right fromthe coconut, you'd use a 1:15 dilution. 1 cup to make 1 gallon


Excellent information to be gained from this post.

Thanks Rrog!

-Snafu


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## Tweetybird999 (Jan 6, 2013)

Hi everyone. This is a very cool thread. Just started an ACT with EWC/alfalfa meal, sea weed, nettle, comfrey & horsetail. All in a paint strainer bag. Forgot to put oyster shell flour in the bag so some was just added to the bucket along with molasses. It will all bubble away for about 18 hours. Plants are in week 6 of flower. Really would like to get the buds to swell a bit. They are fine looking, just not very big. No yellowing on leaves or anything.


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## Rrog (Jan 7, 2013)

Hey Tweety- Thanks for stopping by. The most knowledgeable guy I know on this topic insists we keep ACT simple:

3TBS compost 
&#8232;1/2 gallon water&#8232;
3 tsp molasses &#8232;
1/4tsp fish Hydrolysate &#8232;
1tsp kelp meal
&#8232;1/4 tsp rock phosphate


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## Endur0xX (Jan 7, 2013)

Cann said:


> Wow...that EWC is going to be insane my friend...highest quality castings I could imagine for real....
> 
> And how did you start up your bokashi? Did you buy bran or just use EM-1 to start a culture? I'm looking to start a bokashi bucket ASAP


you can buy EM here http://gardenerspantry.ca/ , you can buy it activated or non-activated ,... if you know how to activate it, it's 20 times cheaper. (I bought 1 of each and I just finished the activated one,... gonna have to look into that soon)


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## Rrog (Jan 7, 2013)

I don't buy microbes any longer. You can collect your own. BIMs


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## Tweetybird999 (Jan 7, 2013)

This is one of those really not so funny things...I found out the compost I was using is not compost...it is organic potting soil! Not sure what is in it. I must have been having a bad day when I picked that up. Anyway, went looking for compost, as mine isn't ready to use. Wrong time of year to look for compost in this city. The only place at the moment is the city's eco centre and I can only get there one Saturday, soon hopefully. So I'm using ewc & herbs as the compost part...sort of... I will try your recipe very soon, when I can actually get some compost. lol. 

One of the irritating things is that a lot of ingredients for soil are very seasonal here and shipping is cost prohibitive. I've been asking for kelp meal/sea weed powder and people are looking at me like I have two heads. One lady at a hydro shop told me to go to a grocery store. lol. Ok, but the cost of people grade kelp is pretty high. Can't find bat or bird guano for under $35 for 2.5 lbs. Forget that. No way to get crab meal even in the summer for a reasonable price. Sigh...this summer will be time for me to stock up on anything that might be needed in the winter. 

The recipe you provided is for a 1/2 gallon, so how much is it diluted for a drench? 




Rrog said:


> Hey Tweety- Thanks for stopping by. The most knowledgeable guy I know on this topic insists we keep ACT simple:
> 
> 3TBS compost
> &#8232;1/2 gallon water&#8232;
> ...


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## Rrog (Jan 7, 2013)

You would apply as-is after brewing. 2-3 cups per application. You should know that a lot of very heavy duty science types never use ACT, instead focusing on the quality of their worm castings. In my opinion, anyone serious about getting the best stuff should raise their own worms and make the best compost possible.


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## Tweetybird999 (Jan 7, 2013)

I agree the best is your own. I have a compost started, but it will be a while. Worms...I can't do it. They are fine outside in the garden where I only see them when I'm digging around. Just can't get over the ick...bit of a phobia about slithery things & other creepers. I don't have any help growing either so its not an option to get some help with them. Anyway, I'm about 3 weeks from harvest & all the canna bits will go into the indoor compost, along with the non-vegan stuff like bone & blood meal.


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## SurfdOut (Jan 7, 2013)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> Next time I go to the beach I'm going to grab some; thanks bro far out! So 1 cup of coconut water to a gallon of water? I'll feed the coconut meat to my worms, which will be dessert for them haha


Hey Spliff- Watered with 100% coco water more than once and noticed no bad effects, except ants showed up the next day for a day......I'd think a 1:10 percent solution would be better.....


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## BeaverHuntr (Jan 7, 2013)

I'm kind of new to organic soil gardening. I have many hydroponic harvests under my belt, anyways I'm not a noob into growing just organics lol... Here's what I use for my tea 

EWC in panty hose
Hi Brix Molasses 
Kelp Meal 
Caps bennies - foliar, nute and root packs 

Oh I'm using subs super soil recipe for flower and vegging in roots 707 

Any recommendations ?? Think I should add anything?


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 7, 2013)

I don't buy EM-1 either, results are getting better each time I collect my own BIM, last time I forgot about it for three days lol. Thanks Surfd, Im gonna give it a go fer sure! Once in veg and once in flower, Rrog suggested 1:15. I didn't know Aloe was illegal now, I called my nursery to see if they had any and she gave me the spiel, I guess all medicinal plants are going to be made illegal? Ridiculous..Anyway, hows that Bokashi coming Rrog? It's better to squeeze out too much moisture, than too less remember that. If the bokashi start getting a green or yellow soil web, it's too wet.


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## SurfdOut (Jan 7, 2013)

Aloe=illegal wtf?


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## Rrog (Jan 7, 2013)

Scrap the CAP. Use your own stuff. Better and cheaper. 

Barley Tea:
2 tablespoons of seeds (1 oz.) Soak for 12 hours. Drain that water and throw away. It&#8217;s full of growth inhibitors. Add 1/2 gallon of water to the sprouts for the 48 hour soak. Strain and use 1 cup of this to 1 gallon of water. Use as a drench and as a foliar


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 7, 2013)

SurfdOut said:


> Aloe=illegal wtf?


Yeah, it's illegal to have it growing on your property, compainies can still sell Aloe at mass production though. Aloe grows wild in some states over here in the mainland.


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## Cann (Jan 7, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Barley Tea:
> 2 tablespoons of seeds (1 oz.) Soak for 12 hours. Drain that water and throw away. It&#8217;s full of growth inhibitors. Add 1/2 gallon of water to the sprouts for the 48 hour soak. Strain and use 1 cup of this to 1 gallon of water. Use as a drench and as a foliar


Okay this is awesome. I make my own sprouts all the time, and that sprout water usually just ends up in my raised beds...are there any other seeds this is good with? I have red clover seeds, alfalfa, broccoli, radish, etc. Rrog, can't thank you enough for your presence on this forum. +rep if it lets me this time...

EDIT: still cant +rep you...god damn haha

Also, aloe is illegal wtf?? I just got some yesterday from a friend that I was going to plant in my front yard...is this law only in hawaii or is it national?


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 7, 2013)

Cann said:


> EDIT: still cant +rep you...god damn haha
> 
> Also, aloe is illegal wtf?? I just got some yesterday from a friend that I was going to plant in my front yard...is this law only in hawaii or is it national?


You gotta spread rep to 30 different members before you can give it to Rrog again. I'm researching it now..not sure.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 7, 2013)

Yep, it's illegal. Also it has cancer healing properties. I could go on for years about this, but lets keep the thread on topic. Funny how cannabis and aloe are plants with cancer healing properties and they're illegal though; long story short.


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## Rrog (Jan 7, 2013)

Any seed will work. All are embryos and have great enzymes and secondary metabolites. Use it quick! Barley has a lot of cytokinin, a growth hormone. Alfalfa is also great, as there's Tricontanol, another hormone. Just make sure and toss the first soak, as it has microbicides.


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## Tweetybird999 (Jan 7, 2013)

I have a lot of scarlet runner beans from my garden...can I use these? I see you said any seed, but just want to check... can this be used any time or is is best during veg?



Rrog said:


> Any seed will work. All are embryos and have great enzymes and secondary metabolites. Use it quick! Barley has a lot of cytokinin, a growth hormone. Alfalfa is also great, as there's Tricontanol, another hormone. Just make sure and toss the first soak, as it has microbicides.


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## Cann (Jan 7, 2013)

Spliff - it's funny how cancer-fighting plants are often illegal to the public, yet at the same time by the government they are deeply studied, chemically isolated, and sold under a brand name as "medicine". I would rant forever along side you if we had a thread on that topic lol...but agreed we should keep it focused here on the soil food web. 

I guess I'll post some relevant pics from recently to keep it on track. 

First, the seeds I received from Horizon Herbs - Yarrow, Nettle, and Chamomile. I also picked up some alfalfa and dandelion seeds locally, and planted a bunch of areas outside with all of the above. Also, some are in pots in my greenhouse/sunroom. 



Also got 5 Russian Comfrey roots from Horizon...these are in pots - some inside, some out. 
Here is one of the Aloes I got from my friend. Notice what look like aerial roots growing out of it already...are these roots?
This is a nice picture of some food scraps I had left in a bin to decay for my worms. After a few days everything got coated with this awesome white mold. After a few days I threw some bokashi grain on top, it's still getting moldier and moldier - but still white (this is good right?) I will be setting up my bokashi bucket tomorrow - Just got an old bucket with a spigot on it from a friend 
This is a sweet picture of the top inch of my soil that I noticed during a transplant. The soil was dry and this piece flaked off...check out the fungal hyphae holding it together! This piece was like a dirt chip - !00% glued together by mycelia. 

My homemade EM-1 in the process of culturing. This is 4 days after adding 10 parts milk to rice wash. Can't wait for it to be done!!!

Next up is harvesting BIM, another (3rd) worm bin, collecting leaves/leaf mold from local sources, and I'm sure theres more I cant think of. Always one project after another  otherwise I get bored.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 7, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Any seed will work. All are embryos and have great enzymes and secondary metabolites. Use it quick! Barley has a lot of cytokinin, a growth hormone. Alfalfa is also great, as there's Tricontanol, another hormone. Just make sure and toss the first soak, as it has microbicides.


Could I use waiawi seeds? These tree's grow wild everywhere over here. Also was thinking about using the leaves of this plant to make leaf mold. What do you guys think?


http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/forestry/trees/CommonTreesHI/CFT_Psidium_cattleianum.pdf


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## Rrog (Jan 7, 2013)

Such great stuff!! Regarding the seed questions, I guess I'll change my comment to any seed SHOULD be OK. It's possible that some sprout from some plant species might have a toxin. I'm not aware of any but sure never did a study either. I'd think they're all fine. 

Spliff, I bet that leaf mold would be great. Great amendment, leaf mold. Great water holding capacity, microbes.

Cann- What the hell can I say? Look at you go! White molds on the Bokashi are fine. Once you add some to the worm pile bury in a corner so they can come to it. That acid needs to leach out a bit. Sure stinks. Bury it!

Is that Comfrey Bocking 14 by chance?

Cann- Planting those beneficial plants and having them on standby will make your plants superhuman - or something like that. Those are all excellent sources of real plant treasure. Top dressing into the soil, adding to a worm bin (!!), or just a 2-3 day bubbled tea and used as a foliar and root drench. You can't bet it. 

You can make the worlds best vermicompost now. No exaggeration.


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## Rrog (Jan 7, 2013)

Tweety, sure wish you'd reconsider a worm bin. It's the perfect plant food, made much more so by making sure key ingredients are in there. Most commercial worm castings are more limited in what they contain, and could be sterilized for packaging. And bagged castings cost $$.

Making your own, once set up, is close to free, and the super microbially active fresh castings, are a the fundamental amendment


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## Cann (Jan 7, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Planting those beneficial plants and having them on standby will make your plants superhuman - or something like that. Those are all excellent sources of real plant treasure. Top dressing into the soil, adding to a worm bin (!!), or just a 2-3 day bubbled tea and used as a foliar and root drench. You can't bet it.
> 
> You can make the worlds best vermicompost now. No exaggeration.


 Thats what I like to hear!!!!!

The comfrey is Bocking 14 of course  did my research on that one

I'm aiming for the worlds best vermicompost - although I'm sure yours is far superior kiss-ass After I realized the unbelievably poor quality of the shit that is sold at nurseries (looks like sandy woody dirt...), I feel compelled to create true quality castings. 

Random question, how long do you think the soil web community can stay somewhat alive in a plastic bag? I'm thinking about the potential of a massive vermicomposting farm which produces amazing quality castings for distribution...that way your average joe could actually get his hands on some _decent_ castings at the nursery, hydro store, etc. I would work hard at this if I knew the soil web could arrive to the customer somewhat intact...what are your thoughts?


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 7, 2013)

Yes can that white is good, your on the right track. As long as its not green or yellow your fine. When I get home I'm going to make some vermicompost hawaiian style. Using waiawi leaf mold,fresh aloe,fresh coconut water and meat/husk, freshwater seaweed, saltwater seaweed,greensand from the beach,oyter shells(literally),fresh fish head,guts,scales, apple banna peels, homemade bokashi and em-1, bamboo shoots,ect the list goes on forever. This thread has really opened my eyes to how much resources I have on this island. Big thank you to everyone.


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## Rrog (Jan 7, 2013)

Regarding Coconut water is diluted 1:15. 1 Cup and then enough water to make a gallon. Very good bottled brand you may find locally is- COCONUT-WATER

Plant hormones

http://scidiv.bellevuecollege.edu/rkr/biology213/lectures/pdfs/Hormones213.pdf Good Summary of what they do and how.

Coconut is full of hormones. High levels of Indole-acetic-acid (IAA) Cytokinins, Gibberellic acids, Auxins, et al. - everything that a seed needs to create a new plant. 

Barley Sprout- Cytokinins


Avoid Alfalfa during flower, because Tricontanol may prolong flowering. It&#8217;s a growth hormone


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## Cann (Jan 7, 2013)

God damn spliff...making me wish I was in hawaii. You have so many sources for organic material around you...its insane. Forests teeming with life, the ocean, etc. I am stuck in a damn city in the desert in so-cal...feels fucking lifeless. Might take a trip to hawaii next fall when I get out of here...I need a change of pace. Sometimes it feels like I'm stuck living on island time and everyone else is rushing around like a mofo...trips me out. Would be nice to go somewhere that is chilled out a bit haha

Would love to see some pics of what you got goin on, that list sounds like an amazing start. Your worms should be thankful lmao they are getting a buffet! 

im very jealous sir, you are quite blessed with your location. make the most of it

EDIT: ha I can barely get a post in before there is another one! love how active this thread is. lets make sure it stays that way


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 7, 2013)

Right now, I'm in the mainland going through medical problems. I really hope I will be physically up to doing all this when I get back, just throwing the idea out their because I am so excited. Also, I got some buddies from Hawaii that are reading this thread so I'm throwing the idea out at them, that it can be done. So far my organic ride has been nothing but rewarding bliss, for everything in my life.


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## Rrog (Jan 7, 2013)

Spliff- So happy to hear you describe the amazing bounty in our backyards and how world class it really is for plants. Sounds like you have everything you could ever need right there. That's something else!

Cann- I think the microbes could hold on. Like a fruit, you'd maybe bag it while still green. The problem would likely be the FDA or EPA or DOA. I can imagine live worms or recently dead ones may require something in some states. I'm not aware of the laws at all, but I've read online about sterilized castings. Might be urban legend. 

And as far as worms, I just started with worms. Bokashi was three months ago. I have been researching this and listening to the likes of Clackamas Coot (acknowledged in my sig). I'm just his messenger. He's the real deal. Soil scientist, plant biologist, with decades of breeding experience. Plant breeding, I mean. Anyway, I'm taking my super-duper vermicompost lead from that cat.


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## Cann (Jan 7, 2013)

Thanks RRog. If I'm not mistaken, Clackamas Coot is a.k.a. Lumperdawgz, Lumperdawgz2, ComfreyQuery on grasscity, yes? I have been reading his stuff for months, and he is a genius. He is the one who sparked this all for me. Subcool got me interested in organics years ago when I was just an ignorant kid...then came Bill Mollison and permaculture...now it's Lumper aka Clackamas Coot who is driving my exploration into organics. I made an ICMag account the other day just to view his account lol, but I swear that my email got hacked that night and it's cause I used the same password on ICmag...maybe not. Anyway, thank you for acting as his messenger since he is no longer accessible on the threads (or so it appears). It's much easier to ask you than to sort through pages and pages and pages of old threads (although I'm always doing that anyway...). And yes, if I'm not mistaken CC runs an organic farm/nursery in oregon and has decades of experience as you said. If only we had a "Lumperdawgz Living Oranics" subsection of Organics. That would be *the spot*.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 7, 2013)

This is how pretty much how've been growing for quite awhile. No books, no research, just me listening to my plants and observing results.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 7, 2013)

I swear people who never tried this before would be amazed with the results of just using collected BIM EM-1 and molasses through out their entire grow.


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## Rrog (Jan 7, 2013)

Cann, that's the fellow. My friend.


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## Rrog (Jan 7, 2013)

I look at ACT and Lacto-B (BIM) a little teeny bit differently these days.

Lacto Bacillus is a primary digester. Great for getting things going in a new soil. That's why it's great to make Bokashi. A real digester. I'm less convinced routinely applying ACT or BIMs is as good as perhaps the Barley, coconut or aloe teas. The thought is that if the soil microbes are up and running in the soil, every day that goes by that soil becomes more organized. Hierarchies are further established. Things are more organized. It hit me one day when I thought of pouring billions of microbes down upon all that order in that plant pot. If there was such a vast microbial order, am I really helping? I realize there's a huge introduction of nutrients, but we can do that with other teas and amendments.

The coconut, barley and Aloe teas (or mix all thee = 1 tea) don't supply microbes that I already have. They supply plant enzymes, hormones and various secondary metabolites (sorry to keep saying that). These are like power tools you're dropping into the soil for the microbes and plant to use. They help the microherd, but don't disturb it.

This is just a thought


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## Cann (Jan 7, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Cann, that's the fellow. My friend.


It is my dream to one day personally meet this man. You say friend...Have you been blessed enough to meet the famed CC? If so, I shouldn't be surprised that you have all the answers to my questions 

Spliff - in the spirit of your post I may run a side by side next round with just BIM and molasses. I am going to be running a few different supersoil-esque mixes, as well as using up the remainder of my Aurora nutrients and Roots 707 soil. I'll do a comparison of the roots nutrient lineup vs straight BIM and molasses. I may have to amend or top dress the 707 to provide enough food if I am only using BIM and molasses...what do you think? Would straight 707, BIM, and molasses support a few weeks of veg and then flower? If you are not familiar with 707 - http://www.aurorainnovations.org/formula_707.html. Disregard the silly description lol and skip to the ingredients. I might also try a urine and ash mixture  in the spirit of this study - http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/09/090918-urine-ash-fertilizer.html. 

What do you think?

EDIT: god the thread is so active we are getting robot trolls...jesus. I guess this is a good thing? haha. 

Rrog - that post about microbiological order and structure - wow. You, my friend, are thinking things out properly. I had a thought along those lines a few weeks ago, but thought nothing of it. Now what you are saying makes perfect sense. I guess this is the reason that CC only applies AACTs twice...once in veg, and then a fungal tea in flowering to induce P uptake (if I am correct on this). Glad to have you around


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 7, 2013)

I would love for you to do that, thats all you need. Thats basic biology, water with EM-1 and molasses everytime, every watering. Use FF or LC's mix though just to show how easy it is. You would open a lot of eyes.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 7, 2013)

Keep it very basic, I wouldn't even measure my feedings. Just go by feel and pour outta the bottle, seriously thats how easy it is. I have used 707 once and IMO its complete trash. Just use a 1/3 humus 1/3 peat 1/3 perlite, with no added lime. If you ever do feel like you need Calmag and ph balance, just put a couple tsp in a 32 oz bottle shake it up, and water. Easy as pie, bulletproof. Lets not get into details because I never do, I just go by instinct I guess. Looking at your posts, I can tell you got some organic instincts, just listen to your higher self. It'll tell you what to do.


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## Cann (Jan 7, 2013)

Thats how I usually am lol. Whether its in the kitchen, brewin beer, or mixing compost teas...just a bit of this, a bit of that, etc. The plants aren't _that_ sensitive lol. Nature is good at adapting and creating ideal conditions. 

And good point about the FF instead of 707, I can make it more universally applicable. I have literally never bought a bag of FF though lol so I'm gonna cringe a bit having to pay $13 for a bag of trash lol. But yeah, that would definitely open a LOT of eyes, if people would even be willing to accept it (consumer subconscious is a *powerful* thing). I'm sure I'll have fools arguing with me about every stage of the process lol. Maybe I'll pick up a sample pack of a chem fert line just for the fuck of it to prove how shitty the chem products are!!! lol...can you imagine? Would be great to see the damage caused by chelated nutrients...I'd feel bad for my clone! haha. Maybe I'll do a tap water vs. RO comparison too...although I will probably have to supplement cal/mg with the RO cause i had problems last time when I didn't...

My brain is way too scientific haha...damn biologist parents! Experiments on my mind...


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## Rrog (Jan 7, 2013)

I've just really had my eyes opened to the power of these RAW plant compounds. Even good ol' FPEs (Fermented Plant Extracts) don't have these crazy amazing secondary metabolites. They only last for a few hours. Aloe starts to crap out after 20 minutes. These are fleeting and wondrous compounds indeed. 

So all those plants Cann is growing - Gold. 

Someone spray a foliar of Aloe Tea and report back.. Hee hee... you'll see..


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## Rrog (Jan 7, 2013)

Cann you mentioned water. What would be the most natural water for a plant? I used to think well water. Pure and all. Full of minerals. But plant roots don't go down 300 feet like my well. 

Plants get rain. So what's in rain? Very little, assuming you don't have polluted. Rain is pretty pure from the little I've read up on this. So maybe straight RO water on soil isn't so bad. What problems did you see?


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 7, 2013)

Cann said:


> And good point about the FF instead of 707, I can make it more universally applicable. I have literally never bought a bag of FF though lol so I'm gonna cringe a bit having to pay $13 for a bag of trash lol. thing).
> My brain is way too scientific haha...damn biologist parents! Experiments on my mind...


 You can make a base soil if you want.


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## Cann (Jan 7, 2013)

When i used straight RO I developed cal/mg issues about 2 months in. Check my grow journal and you'll see...everything was gravy for the first two months, and then all of a sudden cal/mg issues. At first i thought it was lockout when I was under the impression that pH was a concern (doh!) but now I realize it was just a deficiency. Yes rain has very little in it...but enough to provide _some_ trace minerals over time. If I am wrong, please let me know 

Also, for an aloe foliar - how much per gallon? And 20 minutes is once you break the leaf off, yes? Because I have that broken off chunk of plant which I assume is still thriving and alive with secondary metabolites. Please elaborate on these secondary metabolites also - as always I would love to hear more


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## Tweetybird999 (Jan 7, 2013)

Islands... California... I'm in the arctic! So jealous!!! And can't read fast enough! Worms... Would I ever see them? I think so. I'll just concentrate on compost for now. Just don't think I can do it... Maybe when my boys are old enough to help. Lol. That's a new Saturday chore: worm bin stuff.


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## Tweetybird999 (Jan 7, 2013)

Thats amazing! I didn't know you feed this to worms. Most of those ingredients are in or will be in my compost. Added milk to rice serum tonight. Intend to just use the EM1 on the compost & mix it in. Don't really want to pickle it, just help it break down fast. 
I'm also using powdered oyster shell & egg shell. I'll check the feed store for flaxseed meal. Where else would carry it? Or can I make my own flax meal by grinding whole flax? 



Rrog said:


> My current thought process is Vermicompost. I take my household scraps and turn it to Bokashi. I have two 30 gallon Smart Pots on a little raised wire platform with Red Wigglers. Started with used soil and I add the Bokashi off to the side so the worms can go get it as they want it.
> 
> I'm turning my table scraps into the best compost available. I plan to add the following to the worm smart pots:
> 
> ...


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## Rrog (Jan 8, 2013)

My opinion: EM-1 or BIM are for primary inoculation, not routine feeding. I'm not sure where the practice of feeding a plant Lacto-b. I wouldn't do this.


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## Kalyx (Jan 8, 2013)

This thread is Gold. Danks to all contributors! Its nice to know that there are many organic gardeners critically thinking, experimenting, and sharing all that knowledge on RIU. DANK YOU, you are helping many to learn what nature can do if respected and researched!


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 8, 2013)

Rrog, thats not an opinion. Your right and thats the facts, I'm not saying to do this. I was just mentioning that people would be suprised with the results of using just using those, I'm sure Cann was thinkin the same thing. Personally I know of people doing just that and having wonderful plants, could have been really good genetics.


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## Rrog (Jan 8, 2013)

Kalyx, that's very true. Nature is powerful! Hard to fight millions of years of evolution. We just need to understand it all better.

I'm particularly excited about local products. Your own teas, microbes, amendments, EWC... all local. Local = best. Local = cheapest.

I'd like to think that more people are looking to make these products themselves rather than buying a box or bottle, even if it says "organic"


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 8, 2013)

Not to mention the feeling I get personally, when growing organic. Feeling of enlightment, as I sink my hands into my moist worm bin; it's almost a high. Like I'm looking down at myself!


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## Cann (Jan 8, 2013)

The tactile experience of hands in a worm bin is one of my favorite  moist and warm and earthy and wriggly. I only wish the worms liked it as much as me! I feel bad digging around in there and disturbing them...but it has to be done.

Thanks Kalyx for all the positive vibes, I'm glad this thread exists as well. It has easily become my favorite thread on RIU at the moment...


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## HiloReign (Jan 8, 2013)

I had to post and show appreciation for the information being shared here.

Bravo, ladies and gentlemen.


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## Tweetybird999 (Jan 8, 2013)

Just wanted to mention another great food for the microherd: coconut palm nectar! In mg per 100 mg: Nitrogen (N) 202, phosphorous (P) 79, Potassium (K) 1,030, Calcium (Ca) 8, Magnesium (Mg) 29, Sodium (Na) 45, Chloride (Cl) 470, Sulfur (S) 26, Boron (B) 0.6, Zinc (Zn) 2, Mananese (Mn) 0.1, Iron, (Fe) 2, Copper (Cu) 0.23, Thiamine 0.41, Vitamin C 23.4. From coconutpalmsugar dot com

I've heard of a lot of people adding B vitamins to the soil, even an AN product is full of them. I have some brewer's yeast and nutritional yeast that can be bubbled in some water with molasses, then as a drench. Any idea why the microherd would like a Multi-B vitamin?


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## Rising Moon (Jan 9, 2013)

One other "amendment" I have been adding to my worm bin is soy protein powder, the worms LOVE it and it's got good stuff for them like B vitamins ect...

And yes, I agree, best thread on RIU.


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## Rising Moon (Jan 9, 2013)

I'd say the microbes can take energy, strength and immunity from vitamins just like people do. 

But, I don't know for sure...

They sure do seem to like nutrient Dense foods...


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## Rrog (Jan 9, 2013)

Generally the plant is feeding the microbes. 

We used to talk about feeding the plant. Then we moved and talked about feeding the microbes, because they feed the plant.

Now we talk about simply keeping the raw materials in place for the microbes and plant to access. Materials like typical NPK sources, as well as hormones, plant enzymes and secondary metabolites. We're not feeding the microbes. The plant is, and I'm more and more of the opinion not to screw with this with random ACT and BIM applications.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 9, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> One other "amendment" I have been adding to my worm bin is soy protein powder, the worms LOVE it and it's got good stuff for them like B vitamins ect...


Hmm, I'm going to put hemp protien in my worm bin for giggles. I see where your going with this, healthy worm=healthy casting=healthy plants; vice versa. Ecosystem, its a constant self sustaining circle.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 9, 2013)

Plus maybe with a high fiber diet, my worms will produce more poop  
lol, i joke.


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## Rrog (Jan 9, 2013)

You guys get it. The worm is the real soil engineer. Compost is the heart of the soil. You can feed the worms the best rock powders, clay powders, plants for nutrient and hormone supply. The castings is what we need to focus on. At least IMHO. I think it's the holy grail of soil perfection and we can make it ourselves in a bag of worms. Holy shit! (pun)

This just seems much too right to be wrong.


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## Cann (Jan 9, 2013)

and hemp protein is added to the worm list. good thing too, cause I got a whole jar for free a while back and it's been sitting in my cupboard....I eat raw hemp seed for my protein intake so no powder for me. 

off to home depot for some more worm bin/bokashi supplies, then i'll be back for more. cant get enough of this thread. if anyone has pics of their castings or worms or setup or whatever, post em! id love to see the great stuff yall are producing


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 9, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Holy shit! (pun)


Holy shit? Like from the pope?


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 9, 2013)

Cann said:


> and hemp protein is added to the worm list.


Lol, I don't know if it'll do much; I drink two hemp shakes a day and its great for my digestion; the protein helps me keep on weight also. If RisingMoon is having getting results with soy, I don't think it would hurt to add some hemp though. Not necessary though, lets not start another feeding with EM convo; this thread should be for tested a true organics. I guess I should stop throwing out suggestions, or go to post them in " Unconventional Organics ", sorry about that guys.


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## Cann (Jan 9, 2013)

Ha - I don't mind you trying out your theories here Spliff. I was assuming it might not do much...but figured it wouldn't hurt. Especially if Rising Moon suggests adding protein...but maybe theres something in soy that were missing here..


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 9, 2013)

Soy has lots of probiotics and is full of life. I use Soy milk or rice milk to make my hemp shakes; lol. Glad your gonna try it out man!


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## Cann (Jan 9, 2013)

Yesterday I went searching the neighborhood for fallen leaves...stumbled on some pretty big piles. Ended up coming home with 2 trashbags full...going out for more tomorrow. Some of the piles had some solid leaf mold towards the bottom...check out these hyphae!!!  god i love fungus


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## Rrog (Jan 10, 2013)

A few pages back I mentioned that Coconut Water is used full strength. This is incorrect, and I went back to correct this. 

Coconut water should be diluted 1:15. So a cup of coconut water and then enough water to make a gallon.

Sorry for this.


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## Cann (Jan 10, 2013)

This is in regards to water straight out of a coconut, right? What about store bought coconut water?


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## Rrog (Jan 10, 2013)

Quality bottled coconut water is supposed to be full strength, so the same 1:15 dilution


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## Cann (Jan 10, 2013)

Just found out that CC is still active and posting on ICmag...why didn't anyone tell me???? lol. 

Rrog - glad to see you are literally getting your info directly from the man himself. Thank you for making that clarification. Now to do some massive lurking on icmag....

Today is a good day


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 12, 2013)

Some pictures of my bins. This is what its all about! Getting to know your soil food web in your area, GET VEGUCATED!









_Spliff_


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## Rrog (Jan 12, 2013)

Sweet!! Nice work.


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## Cann (Jan 13, 2013)

mmmm hyphae. solid stuff spliff


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## Rrog (Jan 13, 2013)

how's your soil doing, Cann?


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## Microbeman (Jan 13, 2013)

Just a quick note to state that hyphae refers to microscopic fungal strands and visible strands are mycelia which are composed of a multitude of hyphae. The type of mycelia one typically wishes to see are thread-like rather than fuzz (eg. moldy food)

~The Stranger~


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## Cann (Jan 13, 2013)

thanks microbeman for keepin us in check. 1st post on the new account lol. its hard for me to use the word mycelia in a non-mycology context...but i guess it is scientifically accurate. thanks for that 

rrog - my soil is doing amazing except that a hard frost froze the top 2'' of it yesterday haha. And my german shepherd got into some of it and strewed about a gallon across the yard...but what are you gonna do lol. yelled at her a bit but who knows what that will accomplish. she also dug up some of my newly planted nettle and alfalfa seeds  we'll see how they turn out...

just started a batch of recycled soil, right now it is just roots 707 from the previous run, the soil is pretty damn tapped because of how little I fed my ladies. I have about 5 cuft of soil, what would you recommend for amendments? I was thinking crab meal, neem meal, kelp meal, EWC, oyster shells, maybe some biochar, glacial rock dust, and maybe a touch of langbeinite or azomite or something for trace minerals and cal/mg. just not sure on how much of each to add...
Maybe this is a better question for CC lol, or maybe I just need to take the time to read through that whole ROLS thread and take notes...but I trust your opinion  and I would always trust Microbeman's opinion I just don't know if he's gonna stick around RIU lol....

Oh also yesterday when I went to move the tarp with my soil, I found over 50 earthworms on the surface underneath the tarp and managed to scoop them up and throw them in the recycled soil bin  didn't wanna add em to my worm bin cause I don't know what species they are (some were reallly grey...) and I don't want there to be any interspecies competition in the bin...

now to go turn my soil before it gets dark


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 13, 2013)

Yeah I just started these bins, hoping to get some mycelium going soon though.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 13, 2013)

Cann said:


> Oh also yesterday when I went to move the tarp with my soil, I found over 50 earthworms on the surface underneath the tarp and managed to scoop them up and throw them in the recycled soil bin  didn't wanna add em to my worm bin cause I don't know what species they are (some were reallly grey...) and I don't want there to be any interspecies competition in the bin...
> 
> now to go turn my soil before it gets dark


Those are alabama jumpers, I have a worm bin with only those in it. The vermicompost comes out much earthier smelling, and its much more muddy feeling than my red wiggler compost. They're fine; they can handle getting fed high fertilizers so i'll like having some in my pots with my growing plants.


_Spliff_


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 13, 2013)

Microbeman said:


> Just a quick note to state that hyphae refers to microscopic fungal strands and visible strands are mycelia which are composed of a multitude of hyphae. The type of mycelia one typically wishes to see are thread-like rather than fuzz (eg. moldy food)
> 
> ~The Stranger~


I blame the quality of my pictures for this post.lol


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## trichome fiend (Jan 13, 2013)

Microbeman said:


> Just a quick note to state that hyphae refers to microscopic fungal strands and visible strands are mycelia which are composed of a multitude of hyphae. The type of mycelia one typically wishes to see are thread-like rather than fuzz (eg. moldy food)
> 
> ~The Stranger~


...glad to see you made it over  ...bring the knowledge


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 13, 2013)

Yes, bring it on!


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## Microbeman (Jan 14, 2013)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> I blame the quality of my pictures for this post.lol


No, strictly terminology, as Cann said. It is good to use the correct terms as much as possible as it clarifies communication.


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## Cann (Jan 15, 2013)

Currently in the process of reading the whole recycled living soil thread on ICmag....on page 17 and I already have 3 pages of notes in my notebook  thats how you know its good. I'm going to be up late tonight I can already tell...

maybe I'll post my notes as a summation once I'm done, if I ever finish....lol. 

cracking a homebrew and then back to reading 

I am a student of the soil


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## Cann (Jan 15, 2013)

90 pages, 6 hours, 3 homebrews, countless bowls, and 8 pages of notes. so far so good. now to sleep. that thread is like sorting through a treasure chest  so much great info. too much, actually....

tired


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jan 15, 2013)

i love you! I have alot of reading to do. I just grasped compost teas and LOVE THEM as do the ladies, i feed beans, aloe, a spiderplant, 1 medicine man and 5 dog og 's with the peruvian bat guano high p guano(jamaican) maxi-crop, liquid karma, worm castings, etc. recipe, was looking at the neptune's harvest fish emulsions too but this guano one made my ladies THRIVE thankgoodness for knowledgeable organic farmers with a large knowledgebase! I am so happy right now you truly made my saeson with this help op sincerely thankyou.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jan 15, 2013)

Rrog said:


> You guys get it. The worm is the real soil engineer. Compost is the heart of the soil. You can feed the worms the best rock powders, clay powders, plants for nutrient and hormone supply. The castings is what we need to focus on. At least IMHO. I think it's the holy grail of soil perfection and we can make it ourselves in a bag of worms. Holy shit! (pun)
> 
> This just seems much too right to be wrong.


truer words have never been spoken verywell put!


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jan 15, 2013)

I'll warn you right now im not going anywhere!


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## Rrog (Jan 15, 2013)

Good good!


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## BeaverHuntr (Jan 15, 2013)

For peace of mind, please tell me PH does not matter when brewing a AACT tea. Last night I was brewing my tea. The PH of the water was 6.5 and then I added about 100ML of molasses and my PH went way down to 3.7.. I always heard that PH'ing tea doesn't matter just want some final clarification. Thanks guys.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jan 15, 2013)

Yeah as far as i know its not an issue. something about it balancing itself out, but then again im newbish anytime i think ive grasped something i usually am schooled here but thats a good thing.


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## Rrog (Jan 15, 2013)

Not an issue.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 15, 2013)

I don't worry about it. I could water my plants with nuclear waste and they wouldn't care about the pH. . . the beauty of organics.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jan 15, 2013)

so guys i'd love to hear everyone's insight on flouride being in the water and its pro's and con's in regards to plants. I have no clue if it can be gassed out either, just saw my local water report and wanted to ask you guys insight.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 15, 2013)

Fluoride is poison, to humans and plants a like. I brush my teeth with baking soda, only way I can get them feeling clean without using toothpaste w/ fluoride in it. I'm sure it's not killing your plants, but if you water them w/ R/O water you would be able to tell a healthy difference imo.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jan 15, 2013)

hmmm, any idea's how i can get this shit outa my water? will a carbon filter get at it? This truly sucks becase I KNEW something was slowing things down, but ive always used this local water, To be honest i have no damn clue how they convince the taxpayers here that flouride in the water is fucken ok at all! 7ppms i think.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jan 15, 2013)

so depressing to see the options online for removal of flouride from water 300 bucks and up for decent removal one includes hitting the water with uv light which seems awesome but honestly i cant afford a 2000 dollar system like that atm. I cant believe i have been using this water (using brita filters lol) for making food(boiling should remove it), but i feel pissed that i havent looked into this sooner. If ANYONE here has a decnt set-up that they know works to safely remove flouride please let me know.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 15, 2013)

Dig a well into your own water source, lol. Brita filters add extra flouride, so don't try those. If you can't find anything, and your grow doesn't require much water, they have those "fill it yourself" r/o machines around town, around a dollar for 5 gallons. can get pretty pricey though. . .good luck.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 15, 2013)

VTMi'kmaq said:


> so depressing to see the options online for removal of flouride from water 300 bucks and up for decent removal one includes hitting the water with uv light which seems awesome but honestly i cant afford a 2000 dollar system like that atm. I cant believe i have been using this water (using brita filters lol) for making food(boiling should remove it), but i feel pissed that i havent looked into this sooner. If ANYONE here has a decnt set-up that they know works to safely remove flouride please let me know.


Uhh yeah dude, they don't tell you cause they want you to get sick off that shit. "Brush your teeth everyday!!!" Lol, all they see is dollar bill signs walking around, not people. My bad, feeling ranty this morn'. Peace bro!


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## BeaverHuntr (Jan 15, 2013)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> Dig a well into your own water source, lol. Brita filters add extra flouride, so don't try those. If you can't find anything, and your grow doesn't require much water, they have those "fill it yourself" r/o machines around town, around a dollar for 5 gallons. can get pretty pricey though. . .good luck.


Yeah dude look for a "water and ice" store or just hit up those R/O vending machines!


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jan 15, 2013)

Brita filters add extra flouride? for fucks sake there carbon filters how in the hell are they throwing flouride too? man oh man im double screwing myself ignorant bastard i am!


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## Cann (Jan 15, 2013)

lmao yeah I remember when I was looking for a small water filter I picked up a Brita and started reading...in tiny text at the bottom it nonchalantly mentions that the filter adds flouride to the water.... wtf why????? we are trying to REMOVE nasty shit from our water...not add it....needless to say I immediately set down the pitcher and went with a different brand. And now I have a RO system so it's a non issue...

God damn. walking $$$$ is right spliff...lets not even get started ranting about the "health" care system in this country....bogus to say the least. planned obsolescence human style...I feel the worst for the doctors who are legitimately trying to help people but are brainwashed and blinded by the pharmaceutical companies in to thinking the poison they are prescribing helps people....its a f*ing disaster...

Luckily for us, the things that are good for our plants are good for us and vice versa. That is one of the best parts about living a recycled organic lifestyle...if you eat healthy your plants will eat healthy. I know that I have started to eat better now that I pay lots of attention to what I give my ladies. Things like Aloe, Coconut water, Sprouted seeds (and the leftover water), Nettle, Kelp, EM (lactobacillus culture), Comfrey, Kale, etc. are all great for me, and in turn great for my bokashi, worms, soil... Bio-accumulators are the name of the game when it comes to this type of stuff - both humans and plants need a large and diverse amount of minerals to be healthy! This is why things like kelp and comfrey are so awesome...


And welcome Mi'kmaq, glad to have you around. This thread is a great read if you have the time, well worth it IMO


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 15, 2013)

Doctors aren't trained in healing, they're trained in medicine. You want some healing go to a naturalist. lol


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jan 15, 2013)

Cann said:


> lmao yeah I remember when I was looking for a small water filter I picked up a Brita and started reading...in tiny text at the bottom it nonchalantly mentions that the filter adds flouride to the water.... wtf why????? we are trying to REMOVE nasty shit from our water...not add it....needless to say I immediately set down the pitcher and went with a different brand. And now I have a RO system so it's a non issue...
> 
> God damn. walking $$$$ is right spliff...lets not even get started ranting about the "health" care system in this country....bogus to say the least. planned obsolescence human style...I feel the worst for the doctors who are legitimately trying to help people but are brainwashed and blinded by the pharmaceutical companies in to thinking the poison they are prescribing helps people....its a f*ing disaster...
> 
> ...


well then there goes my water lol, thanks cann its a nice knowledgebase here im quite attracted to. I found this guys good reading http://www.greenfacts.org/en/fluorid...ironment.htm#2


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## Cann (Jan 17, 2013)

lol sorry to discredit your water source but at least you figured it out before you f***ed up your plants, right?


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 17, 2013)

Or even worse. . . Your soil. (dun dun dun)


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jan 17, 2013)

to be honest i havent seen that many bad effects and with compost tea's i find im fine.I was more concerned with the brita filters and there adding flouride. They were replaced rather quickly, sears carries the flouride filtration i needed and it'll be installed tomarrow afternoon!


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 17, 2013)

Sounds like a man with a plan, cool beans good luck


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## Rrog (Jan 17, 2013)

...don't mess with the soil...


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## Rrog (Jan 17, 2013)

VTM, have you seen any previous posts about Barley Tea, Coconut Water or Aloe?


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## headtreep (Jan 27, 2013)

What's up everyone! Got my herbal tea and bean enzymes bubbling as we speak hehe!! Will start posting results in the future. No till!!!!


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## Rrog (Jan 27, 2013)

Thanks so much for posting these real-life updates. 

So these beans- What type? Are these in raw seed form?

Have you tried barley sprout tea yet? Make sure you toss the water from the first 12 hour soak. Contains microbicide. Use the next soak after 24 hours. Dilute 1:15 and use as soil drench or foliar. The plant embryo offers up fantastic enzymes and hormones.


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## headtreep (Jan 27, 2013)

Mung beans are what I have in the organic bulk section at my nearest store. My buddy from OR is going to send me some purple barley next month. I've been bubbling the beans until I half inch sprout (replacing water every 12 hours) and then using about 1:15 give or take drench to my seedlings. I do mostly drenches of everything since most of my foliars are basic act or neem/slica/aloe. I get my leaves wet every other day with something and this seems to keep the pests away hehe.

Hindu Blue an example of some vigor from these small additives:








Looks pretty healthy to me and I no tilled this after culling a male


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## Rrog (Jan 27, 2013)

Looks incredibly healthy. Purple Barley... you're on the inside track, obviously.


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## Rising Moon (Jan 28, 2013)

Anyone try the technique from "teaming with microbes" where you take a hand full of compost and some fiber based food (oatmeal)
and cultivate the fungi?

Well, it's new to me, and in a couple days I'll post my results.


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## Rrog (Jan 28, 2013)

Not sure what you'd accomplish. Are you talking about collecting BIMs to start a soil?


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## Rising Moon (Jan 28, 2013)

I am thinking to break up the colonized mass into little chunks and bury them under my plants when I transplant. 

Im pretty sure in the book it talks about making tea with this as well. 

I need to re read.


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## Rising Moon (Jan 28, 2013)

Basically, I took a handful of homemade compost and leafmold, added some hemp powder, dried yarrow, comfrey and seaweed, and just enough water (damp sponge like)

I put it in a brown paper bag, in the closet, and hopefully in 3 days, it will be fully colnized by the fungi in the compost.


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## Rrog (Jan 28, 2013)

Ah- so for use as an initial inoculant, then?


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 28, 2013)

I'm on the same page I. The same book as ya lol!
I haven't used the oats yet,but I have used some of my soil as well as kelp meal to add to the fungal count.

I picked up the book again a couple weeks ago and got worried because I thought I was only brewing teas with w EWCs as compost, and only adding things that multiplied bacteria. I began to think I my soil would become too bacterially dominated..

Just to be sure I switched it up a little and stop using EWCs in my teas, and started with the soil.
kelp meal is awesome for trace elements, macro and micro nutes, and for adding to the fungal count.

PLEASEE let me know how the experiment goes!
And forgive me if I'm in the wrong lane, but I thought u were asking how to build the fungi count...


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## H R Puff N Stuff (Jan 28, 2013)

can i use this for compost tea


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## Rrog (Jan 28, 2013)

Is that compost? If so, just add as a top dressing, or make a slurry and drench soil. I'm not much on bubbling it for days before adding.


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## H R Puff N Stuff (Jan 28, 2013)

it says N'riched compost the ingredients are forest humus ,compost ,composted chicken manure ,worm castings ,kelp meal ,bat guano ,gypsum oyster and dolomite lime. i was hoping to make aact with it just got air stone and pump, but i have never made tea before, will top dressing be as effective thanxs for the reply.


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## Rrog (Jan 28, 2013)

If your soil is up and running, then I would just top dress with EWC. Control what you add, rather than buying mixes.

You can use that bubbler for Barley Sprout Tea, or other great Botanical Teas.


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## Cann (Jan 28, 2013)

Rrog - Any word on the bioactivity of Aloe and the whole 20 minute ordeal? I know cootz has been MIA for the last few days so we may just have to wait for his return...

itching to know...cause I got some aloe leaves from a week ago that I would love to use..just want to make sure they havent "gone bad" whatever that would mean


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## Rrog (Jan 28, 2013)

Oh, sorry! I thought you were asking about botanical teas, like comfrey or such. Aloe is 2 Tablespoons per gallon. Use quickly! Let us know how you like the plant's reaction to a foliar!


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 28, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> added some hemp powder


How much did you add?

And Cann use that stuff ASAP bro.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 28, 2013)

H R Puff N Stuff said:


> View attachment 2499762can i use this for compost tea


Hell yeah, throw some in your AACT brewer with some form of sugar for your colony to feed off of. If it foams, it's alive and full of organic life.


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## Rrog (Jan 28, 2013)

Spliff- do you have a worm bin / bag?


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 28, 2013)

Hey nice buddah pic man, didn't reconize ya 

I have several worm bins..not bags. I liked your smart pot idea though.


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## Rrog (Jan 28, 2013)

I'm evolving...

Cool on the worms. I thought so. Curious- do you go deep into amending the VC as with biochar, rock powders, etc? Like you would a soil.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 28, 2013)

Glad to hear it, we all are right now actually! Even though most are oblivious to it, good to know your life force is flowing.
Nope, I don't amend my VC. I throw amendments in my bins, let it compost for awhile, then use that VC. Unless that's what you meant but I do not add amendments to my vermicompost.


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## Cann (Jan 28, 2013)

Rrog - Not sure if you are understanding still...Ill spell it out more. A while back you mentioned that when using fresh aloe, it needs to be used within 20 minutes or so before fermentation sets in and starts spoiling the secondary metabolites, enzymes, etc. What I am wondering is if that 20 minutes refers to the time after you filet a leaf and expose the gel to air, or the time after the leaf was removed from the mother plant. The reason I am wondering is that I harvested some rather large leaves from a plant about a week ago, and they have been sitting around since then. They appear fine except for the incision area which has oxidized and turned reddish brown, but they are as plump as a fresh leaf still and appear normal otherwise. Is it safe to bet that these will be just as good as a fresh harvested leaf assuming it is less than 20 minutes from filet to the ladies? 

I hope that makes sense now...let me know if it still doesnt

oh and btw - a gnarly storm came in last night and soaked my soil mix of yours that was drying on a tarp!  it looks like slop now and is starting to stink again...put it into a 60 gal smartpot and brought it inside as soon as I got home, but the damage has been done...luckily since it's so-cal the sun is back out today and should be for the rest of the week, so I will have it out and drying again ASAP, but damn this has set me back quite a bit. Almost had the anaerobic problem solved and then nature decided it wasn't quite ready for that...

on a high note, I am about to go pick up some fresh local EWC (finally found a source yay!!!). I already have a bale of peat, 50lbs of pumice, and all the amendments I need to get another batch in the making. The only thing missing is good humus, and I finally found some


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## headtreep (Jan 28, 2013)

I better get my organic material sources lined up when I move back to Socal Cann haha. Seems like all the good stuff is up in the North


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## Cann (Jan 28, 2013)

Just got 100lbs of castings for $50 and they are so much better than store bought!!! Little baby worms in the mix, egg cases, soil mites, etc - all a good sign of some castings that are alive and well! Excited to get this into a soil mix...everyone is getting a topdressing tonight  along with some neem, crab, and kelp meal. very very happy


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## Rrog (Jan 28, 2013)

Cann- So sorry for being dense. I would guess you are just fine, as there's been no exposure to O2. Not sure how Aloe propagates, but that leaf has gotta be viable. 

Great news on the VC find! That stinky soil is weird. Like no one here or at IC had an idea. In all honesty, I'd swear it was urine. What else would have such free N? You said that's not possible, but I really dunno.


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## Cann (Jan 28, 2013)

Thanks  I'll give the aloe leaves a go. 

In regards to the soil - The only possible way that urine could've got into the mix is if my pup took a piss on the soil...but honestly she is so afraid of going near my soil after last time I yelled at her...so I doubt it. Also, the ammonia smell is coming from 2 of my soil mixes, and one of them is like 15 cuft...so that would have to be a lot of piss to set that off. honestly, I think i might just have a super sensitive nose to ammonia...it is not a powerful ammonia smell at all, just a subtle one, but it's there. I was definitely shocked though by the fact that the ammonia stank didn't go away when I spread the soil on a tarp and let it dry until it was crumbly...really strange. even coot didn't really know what was happening...

i'll give it time and see how the scent progresses....


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## Rising Moon (Jan 28, 2013)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> How much did you add?
> 
> And Cann use that stuff ASAP bro.


3 table spoons at least!


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 28, 2013)

Cann my soil gets that smell if I don't wash my new containers from the store with dish soap before I use them, just my guess. Did you wash your trashcan or bin that you stored it in before you used it? Maybe it picked up some plastic residue from that tarp, did you wash that before using it?


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## Cann (Jan 29, 2013)

hmm...didn't wash the tarps, but the bins have been washed. I doubt it is a plastic related smell...but you could be on to something there. i would be curious as to the science behind unwashed plastic and ammonia smell...let me know if you have any literature or something of the sort


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## Cann (Jan 29, 2013)

hmm...just realized I never factored in the stray cats in this town...it's possible they saw my soil mixes as a litter box...no feces, but they may have urinated and there would be no way for me to tell (except the gnarly ammonia smell). unfortunately, if this is my problem, it is not a very solvable one...

for now the soil is going on the backburner until the smell disappears or I decide to throw it on part of my yard. Puzzling.....


oh, and I found a local source for Bu's Blend Biodynamic Compost  so my humus is jamming now alongside the local living EWC. Will never go back to bagged crap again (yes bu's blend is bagged...but its not crap!!!) well it _is_ crap...but it has been transformed into gold. 

heres a link for those that don't know about bu's blend:

http://malibucompost.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=53

$15 per cuft (locally), and well worth it IMO


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## Rrog (Jan 29, 2013)

Fun watching all of this. Once your worms start really putting out, that'll be it. Fresh and maximally bioactive. Amended the way you wanted. Wow. 

I'd certainly use the cat piss soil. Microbes will help sequester a lot of they're up and running. Have you added char? Especially if fresh, that would help.


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## Fresh 2 [email protected] (Jan 29, 2013)

can someone recommend a good book for organic growing? thanks in advance.


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## Rising Moon (Jan 29, 2013)

That bagged biodynamic stuff looks interesting. I just read about it in the peaceful valley catalogs my house gets bombarded by. 

Cheak out the "Joshephene Porter Biodynamic" something or other, they make compost activators and field sprays will all the preps 501-507 I believe...good stuff, used it for years on my piles with GREAT success.


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## Rising Moon (Jan 29, 2013)

Found it:

The REAL DEAL.

http://www.jpibiodynamics.org/node/258


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## Cann (Jan 29, 2013)

very interesting rising moon...thanks for sharing. great link


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 29, 2013)

Cat problem? Buy a BB gun


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## Cann (Jan 30, 2013)

lol i would do that if there wasn't an apartment complex adjacent to my backyard...

gunshots are not out of the norm here though...so perhaps


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## Rising Moon (Jan 30, 2013)

Cann, I did a little reading from my trusty old, pre chemical USDA year book on soil, and the solution to your ammonia problem is:

Gypsum! 

According to the book, gypsum will cause a chemical reaction to "fix" the ammonia into other forms of nitrogen.


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 30, 2013)

Fresh 2 [email protected] said:


> can someone recommend a good book for organic growing? thanks in advance.


Haha try Teaming With Microbes which page one comes from! And maybe The Organic Gardeners and Organic Gardening Soma Style.


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## Rising Moon (Jan 30, 2013)

The Best book for the serious organic student is Elliot Coleman's New Organic Grower. 

It will teach you the old, ancient techniques, combined with tested modern approaches to truly sustainable agriculture. 

Elliot is known in farming circles as the organic guru.


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 30, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> The Best book for the serious organic student is Elliot Coleman's New Organic Grower.
> 
> It will teach you the old, ancient techniques, combined with tested modern approaches to truly sustainable agriculture.
> 
> Elliot is known in farming circles as the organic guru.



Never heard of it but gonna get it RIGHT NOW if I can find it! Thanks


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## Rising Moon (Jan 30, 2013)

He's got a TON of books. The Winter Greenhouse book is seriously a groundbreaking set of experiments and insights into what is possible. He now grows food year round in Maine feeding over 100 families using unheated greenhouses, in a closed loop system he calls "farm generated fertility".


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## Cann (Jan 30, 2013)

sounds awesome...unheated winter greenhouses in maine??? that are productive??? champion...

about the gypsum...how much should I add? i already have epsom salts as a source of sulfur so I would hope the gypsum doesn't overdo it...


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 30, 2013)

If it does get too hot, just add some soiless medium to cool it down.


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## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2013)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> If it does get too hot, just add some soiless medium to cool it down.



make sure it's inert/unamended soil if your going down this path....otherwise you might be adding more fuel to the fire.


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## BeaverHuntr (Jan 30, 2013)

My Veg Tea is as follows - per 4 gallons 

EWC- 2-3 cups 
Kelp Meal - 2-3 Cups
Alfalfa Meal - 2-3 Cups 
Hi Brix Molasses - 75 ML 
Cap Bennies Powders Foliar Pack , Nute Pack, Root Pack - 2 Tables Spoons each 

Bubble 24 hours 
Anything I'm missing ??


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## RedMan420 (Jan 30, 2013)

BeaverHuntr said:


> My Veg Tea is as follows - per 4 gallons
> 
> EWC- 2-3 cups
> Kelp Meal - 2-3 Cups
> ...


Try also adding a high quality organic compost, and I also use a product called sn14 by biodiversity , it's a N that is plant protein and stuff is killer never found anything like it


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## Rising Moon (Jan 30, 2013)

Cann said:


> sounds awesome...unheated winter greenhouses in maine??? that are productive??? champion...
> 
> about the gypsum...how much should I add? i already have epsom salts as a source of sulfur so I would hope the gypsum doesn't overdo it...


Not sure how much, but I'd say a couple tbs per 10 gal of soil shouldn't over do it. 

The winter greenhouse thing is amazing. He figured out that many vegetables will just freeze solid at night, and get right back to growing when the greenhouses hit above freezing again during the day. Literally 20 years of trail and error, now he has a whole list of crops that he knows will survive and thrive in the winter greenhouse operation.


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## BeaverHuntr (Jan 31, 2013)

RedMan420 said:


> Try also adding a high quality organic compost, and I also use a product called sn14 by biodiversity , it's a N that is plant protein and stuff is killer never found anything like it



Yeah dude I'm getting the fade @ week 7 and I bought a bag of compost at my local shop this past weekend I'm going to top dress with 50% compost and 50% EWC and water with a tea.. Good looking out my dude.


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## RedMan420 (Jan 31, 2013)

BeaverHuntr said:


> Yeah dude I'm getting the fade @ week 7 and I bought a bag of compost at my local shop this past weekend I'm going to top dress with 50% compost and 50% EWC and water with a tea.. Good looking out my dude.


I don't think I would top dress , that takes to long to take effect, but if you make a tea with the compost & ewc than it hits the plant instantly , just brew your tea a little longer (48 hous)


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## Cann (Jan 31, 2013)

Anything topdressed will take at least a week or two to be effectively metabolized into the food web...redman is on point about the tea application. Also, that original tea recipe you posted sounds super hot...2-3 cups of alfalfa per 4 gallons? what???

Try this recipe I got from a friend:

1/2 cup alfalfa
1/4 cup kelp

Per 5 gal water and bubble for 24hrs - then add:

25ml potassium silicate (Protekt)
50-100ml ful-power (Fulvic Acid Supplement made by BioAg)
1/2 cupaloe Vera juice (like Lilly of the desert, or blend up some fresh aloe filets)

Water undiluted and see if you don't notice any _greening up in the next 24-48 hrs. The N in the alfalfa becomes instantly available along with a sleu of micronutrients from the kelp and a long list of secondary metabolites from both._

Also...if you've never tried sprouted seed enzyme teas...give em a whirl. You'll be stunned by the results...


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## Rising Moon (Jan 31, 2013)

No alfalfa during flowering IMO. 

Its GREAT for veg, but may contain flower inhibiting hormones. 

Its also a little high in N to be giving to a plant 7 weeks in. 

Comfrey is a more balanced Npk and would be my recommendation.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 31, 2013)

25ml of protekt?! 
Protekting me from what? lol


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## Rising Moon (Jan 31, 2013)

From using horsetail or dandelion...


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## BeaverHuntr (Jan 31, 2013)

Cann said:


> Anything topdressed will take at least a week or two to be effectively metabolized into the food web...redman is on point about the tea application. Also, that original tea recipe you posted sounds super hot...2-3 cups of alfalfa per 4 gallons? what???
> 
> Try this recipe I got from a friend:
> 
> ...


Okay I'm foliar spraying with neem and pro tek 
I think you are right about using too much Alfalfa because my smaller plants had what looked like nute burn and you rarely see that with organics...Thanks for the tip this is my second organic grow and first using teas so I appreciate the info. ALso I never use alfalfa for my plants in bloom.

YOu guys have been talking a lot about Aloe, where the hell do you get aloe for gardening? YOu guys talking about like the plant Aloe Vera ?? I live in the desert and everyone has aloe vera plants in their yards...Damn dude I been putting big ass hand fulls of alfalfa and kelp.. D'oh!!! Thanks again for the head ups.


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## Cann (Jan 31, 2013)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> 25ml of protekt?!
> Protekting me from what? lol



This is why protekt (potassium silicate) would be used: http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/blog/2010/06/silica-the-hidden-cost-of-chemicals/

an extremely overlooked aspect of gardening IMO..

rising moon is correct however about the horsetail or dandelion containing high levels of silica as well...right now I am too busy/lazy to make a FPE of sorts, so I choose protekt...works for me and I consider it to be an acceptable bottled supplement (along with ful-power, preservative free aloe, and thats about it at this point...)

also yes, alfalfa at week 7 flower is questionable due to the triacontanol..but hell, 1/2 cup is a lot better than 2-3 cups lol! talk about a flowering delay...my bad on that though, was a little too medicated . I just used that tea at week 3 flower cause some of my ladies were starting to fade and it will be my final application of anything alfalfa related.


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## Wolverine97 (Jan 31, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Cann- So sorry for being dense. I would guess you are just fine, as there's been no exposure to O2. Not sure how Aloe propagates, but that leaf has gotta be viable.
> 
> Great news on the VC find! That stinky soil is weird. Like no one here or at IC had an idea. In all honesty, I'd swear it was urine. What else would have such free N? You said that's not possible, but I really dunno.


Hola all. I agree on the aloe, should be fine. The stinky soil could be anaerobic bacteria breeding, they give off an ammonia smell, could be from low oxygen content/penetration into the media.


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## Rrog (Jan 31, 2013)

Wolverine! How cool to see you dropping by! Where ya been?


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## H R Puff N Stuff (Jan 31, 2013)

say i only use 1/2 of my "cooked soil" is it ok if i fill with new soil and ammendments and recook or should i start with a new batch.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 31, 2013)

I've noticed bokashi gets that similiar "amonia" smell during the middle weeks of composting sometimes, if it's too moist. Hows the aeration in your mix Cann; is it more so muddy or loamy when wet?Anyone ever use Sunleaves PSG?


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## H R Puff N Stuff (Jan 31, 2013)

oh and after reading teaming with microbes and understanding the structure of fugi a little better could i mix soil then put in 5 gal pot water and let it cook so when its done i transplant the plant into 5 gal pot so the fungi structure is still in tacked or does it need to be cooked in large amounts for best results.


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## Fresh 2 [email protected] (Jan 31, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Haha try Teaming With Microbes which page one comes from! And maybe The Organic Gardeners and Organic Gardening Soma Style.





Rising Moon said:


> The Best book for the serious organic student is Elliot Coleman's New Organic Grower.
> 
> It will teach you the old, ancient techniques, combined with tested modern approaches to truly sustainable agriculture.
> 
> Elliot is known in farming circles as the organic guru.


hey thanks for the recommendations. i looked into both authors and the Teaming with microbes seems to be more updated, so will more than likely pick that one up instead.


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 31, 2013)

Fresh 2 [email protected] said:


> hey thanks for the recommendations. i looked into both authors and the Teaming with microbes seems to be more updated, so will more than likely pick that one up instead.


It's good to have a variety bro! It HELP TREMENDOUSLY to reach the same shit in different words over and over again


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## Wolverine97 (Jan 31, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Wolverine! How cool to see you dropping by! Where ya been?


I had to take a break from the forums for a while. It was getting really stale for me. Try to help, some random doodz say nuh uh, blah blah, lather rinse repeat... *wanking motion*
Actually, I took a break from the op for a bit as well, but that could only last so long. 

How's it with you? Things going well?


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jan 31, 2013)

Cann said:


> This is why protekt (potassium silicate) would be used: http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/blog/2010/06/silica-the-hidden-cost-of-chemicals/
> 
> an extremely overlooked aspect of gardening IMO..
> 
> ...


Why don't you just use Earth Juice Meta-K? Does the same thing, but it's organic.


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## Rrog (Jan 31, 2013)

Agsil 16 is the same thing as Pro-Tekt in powder form, much cheaper Agsil 16

More on Silica

Even More

Potassium silicate is found naturally, Basalt contains this mineral compound. The problem is, as usual, that the cost of extracting it is prohibitive.

USDA NOP (National Organic Program) has a general regulation known as 205.208(e) (link) which covers bio-pesticides and bio-fungicides including mineral compounds.

Chemical compounds are contained in a database known as Chemical Abstracts Service (CAS) which is part of the American Chemical Society. The listing for Synthetic Potassium Silicate is CAS # 1312-76-1

Under the general blanket regulation noted above, synthetic Potassium Silicate is approved with this stipulation:
Quote:
The silica used in the manufacture of potassium silicate must be sourced from naturally occuring sand. May be used if the requirements of 205.206(e) are met.
AgSil 16H from PQ Corporation was the product that brought about this ruling by USDA NOP whereas prior to that, synthetic sources were prohibited. Their application and final approval allowed if the restrictions were met.

All from my friend Coot


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## Rrog (Jan 31, 2013)

Wolverine97 said:


> I had to take a break from the forums for a while. It was getting really stale for me. Try to help, some random doodz say nuh uh, blah blah, lather rinse repeat... *wanking motion*
> Actually, I took a break from the op for a bit as well, but that could only last so long.
> 
> How's it with you? Things going well?


I understand. My op is down until fall. I'm moving. Other than that, just trying to be a messenger. Very cool to see you. I always loved your avatar.


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## Cann (Jan 31, 2013)

ahh rrog you found the U of Florida link I was looking for...kudos! too many links to sort through...need to organize better along with my notes...  

spliff - i wouldn't use meta-k for multiple reasons. 1 - i am inherently opposed to and EJ product. 2 - 0-0-10 seems like a dangerous amount of potash. 3. all potassium silicate is the same, a.k.a. there is no such thing as "organic" or "synthetic" potassium silicate. there is just potassium silicate. at least that is my understanding..

agsil 16 is probably the easiest/best, but I don't have the cash for that yet...soon


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## Rising Moon (Jan 31, 2013)

Cann said:


> This is why protekt (potassium silicate) would be used: http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/blog/2010/06/silica-the-hidden-cost-of-chemicals/
> 
> an extremely overlooked aspect of gardening IMO..
> 
> ...




I was just being a sarcastic ass, nothing but respect Cann!

Keep sharing the wisdom.


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## Cann (Feb 1, 2013)

thanks risingmoon...its nice to have you keeping us in check with real world solutions instead of bottled (or powder) products. and by real world solutions I mean plants of course. 

so how much horsetail or dandelion would you add per gallon of h2o to mimic the effects of agsil or protekt? very curious...


also, rrog - the agsil on that link is sold out, great price tho. do you know anywhere else that stocks it in small amounts? I can easily drop $10 on some agsil at this point...


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## Rrog (Feb 1, 2013)

...I don't. Just Protekt


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Feb 1, 2013)

...........


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## Rrog (Feb 1, 2013)

So I'm digging my worms roll in the 30 gallon smart pot. Feedin' 'em Bokashi. No fuss, no muss, no smell. I have been adding amendments as I would for soil. Biochar, crab shell, kelp so far. Going slow with the amendments. Worms orgies around the Bokashi. Oh to be a worm...


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## Cann (Feb 1, 2013)

glad you're "digging" your verm friends, they will return all of that love back to you in the form of amazing castings. Just picked up another 100lbs of castings locally  this stuff is screened to 1/4 not 1/8 so its chock full of cocoons, baby worms, and even a few juveniles who slipped through the screen. In a single handful I counted 15 baby worms, 1 juvenile, and about 10 cocoons  gon' have a lot of worms soon. I was doing the math with the reproductive cycle of red worms and it seems you can go from about 2,000 worms to over 400,000 in a year in good conditions...even more than that if you really have it dialed in. lots of potential...


on a totally random note - how much do you guys pay attention about cleanliness in the grow room? do you wear your outside shoes in to the grow room? do you change clothes before going in? wash hands? (and feet if you're a barefoot hippy like me...) i am curious as to how organic growers approach their indoor environment. should we be worried about bringing anything in from the outside if we are already mimicking outdoor conditions inside? obviously it is different for those not running a living soil...but if we are running a living soil what are the concerns? curious as to how others approach this...


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## Rising Moon (Feb 1, 2013)

I follow the method of Maria Thun, biodynamic farmer, and I literally brew up a tea on the stovetop. She doesn't specifically add the dandelion leaves like I do, but it's the same concept. 

I usually take 1/4 a cup each of horsetail, dandelion leaf, red clover flowers,yarrow,wakame kelp, also one tbs of molasses per 1/4 gallon of RO water. 

Brew on low heat for 15 or 20, and your kitchen will smell beautiful. 

Strain, cool and dilute 1:5 

Foilar feed to promote growth, prevent disease/fungi and increase sensitivity to cosmic forces.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 1, 2013)

About cleandlyness...

For the sake of my patients, professionalism and less stressfull working environment, keep it clean!

Wash your hands, or feet, and try to keep your tools, buckets or anything else that may harbor the unwanted organisms clean. 

I was considering lab coats...


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## Rrog (Feb 2, 2013)

Rising Moon, no offense to Thun, certainly, but I would speculate that the enormous quantities of hormones, secondary metabolites and enzymes are being destroyed when cooked. Even if cold water extracted, they only last a short time. Aloe starts to poop after 20 minutes of exposure to air.

There's no question what Maria has you doing is *enormously* beneficial, I just hate to see these incredibly useful molecules destroyed. If you did the exact same thing in a bucket of cool water for a day or two with a little bubbler, you'd get an extract that has much of what you are currently extracting plus the metabolites, etc. 

Heck, you could do the cold water extraction (tea), strain, then take the vegetation and boil at that time for whatever might remain per Thun.

Just a Saturday morning opinion.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 2, 2013)

Everything I have read seems to indicate boiling for 15 min to get maximum effectiveness. 

While I do also use raw solutions like you mentioned, the technique I mentioned above was created by folks with TONS more experiance, experimental testing and general earth/cosmic know how than most others alive today.

And, I trust that farmers such as Maria Thun and Hugh Courtney, who have dedicated their lives to the pursuit of healing the Earth, Biodynamics and Spritual science wouldnt lead me astray...

Herbalists don't seem to feel that medicinal herbs loose the good they contain when we brew them up and drink them.


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## Rrog (Feb 2, 2013)

I'm just telling you, that the molecules I'm discussing very real and are fleeting and fragile and I do not at all believe they are likely to survive a boil extraction. 

And again, no offense, but herbalists can be like stoners in that they rely on each other rather than lab data.


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## Cann (Feb 2, 2013)

this might help... http://microbiologyprocesses.blogspot.com/2011/12/primary-and-secondary-metabolites.html

too much for me to read right now, but I'm sure it's full of good info on primary + secondary metabolites. heres another one about soil enzymes

http://rd.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-14225-3_2


and this one is actually pretty awesome: http://soilquality.org/indicators/soil_enzymes.html


props to CC for all these links and more...time to do some homework


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## Rising Moon (Feb 3, 2013)

I agree as well. And that's why I use the herbs in their raw form, fermented form, composted form, vermicomposted form and traditionally brewed on the stove.

I was just pointing out that I'm not pulling this stuff out of nowhere, and the technique is used by farmers practicing pre industrial agriculture, and putting modern science to shame in many aspects. Also, Horsetail obviously doesn't loose it's effectiveness as an anti-fungal after brewing, because this is the main reason it is sprayed on Biodynamic farms and vineyards. And I use it every year to control PM on squash, works perfect. 

Has anyone read "The Secrects of the Soil" ?

Or "The Agriculture Coarse" by Ruldolf Stiener ?

The Stiener book is the HEAVIEST book on Agriculture, Earth Dynamics and our place in the cosmos that I have ever read. 

It continuously blows my mind, and is truly a Trogen Horse for our societies of the future...


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## HiloReign (Feb 3, 2013)

I hear the Steiner book is heavily influenced upon Steiners own view of the world, rather than actual science. I hear of rituals and bio-dynamics being referred to as a religion in this book and I just wanted to seek your opinion, Rising Moon. I'm not opposed to religion or spirituality and I do indeed have an open mind.

I am what I consider to be completely new to organic gardening. I've read a fair share of text concerning organics but I would definitely like to increase my technical know-how (composing soil, worm culture, composting, advanced techniques (bokashi, ACT...)etc.

I've read just about every book you can find on "OMGARDZ GROW DA BEZT MARYJANEZ" and a couple others, including Teaming with Microbes and Worms Eat My Garbage (a really easy read for anyone who wants to know more about composting).

Thanks for the information being shared here and thank you, kindly for answering any of my questions.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 3, 2013)

Definetly not science. 

If you have trouble swallowing the idea of a clairvoyant philosopher seeing the interworkings of nature, spirits and energy, then I would not recommend the books of Steiner.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 3, 2013)

That being said, I know an old Biodynamic vegetable/strawberry farmer in Oregon, that says he "doesn't believe in that hocus pocus energy crap, but biodynamic preps really work, and my crops are getting better every year." This coming from an organic farmer of 20 years, having watched his crops reach a steady state, with traditional organic techniques, and then seeing INCREDIBLE results after 3 years of Biodynamic preps added to his fertility program. 

No cults or religious beliefs needed. Just results.


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## Rrog (Feb 3, 2013)

Rising Moon- Is there a recipe in there for seed sprout tea? Like Barley or corn sprouts. The sprouts are putting out enormous growth hormones and enzymes. Diluted 15:1 is Great for foliar or soil drench. I betcha there's something similar in there


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## Rising Moon (Feb 3, 2013)

Actually, the Biodynamic preps are less about what they actually contain, and more about the processes they stimulate within the Eco-system itself. Each preparation works as a catalyst for the different aspects of plant growth and soil dynamics. 

His ideas are centered around the concept of the farm as an organism, and the different preparations and techniques are a way of re-sensitizing, awakening and enlivening the cosmic and earth forces already present. 

It is because of pollution, acid rain, deforestation and agricultural chemicals that these natural processes no longer exist, and it is the human beings job to heal, direct and mediate these energies, and re establish the symbiotic relationship with the earth, within the universe.

And to put it very simply, feed the earth, not the plant.


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## Rrog (Feb 3, 2013)

I see. So no bean sprouts. Well, maybe you should try it anyway?


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## Rising Moon (Feb 3, 2013)

I will. I've even got my own beans that I grew (and bred, F3's!)

Dump the first bath, use the second?


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## Rrog (Feb 3, 2013)

You got it! The seed shell has microbicides. Barley works great, and so does corn. All seeds are great, however.


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## HiloReign (Feb 3, 2013)

Before anyone else takes offense to questions, I must give thanks for your sharing. 

I don't believe science speaks for even a tiny fraction of the workings of the universe. I also don't find an exploring mind "hard to swallow", rather a refreshing change. 

Excuse me for lurking, but I insist that more thanks be given as I am constantly picking up shared knowledge from various members. 


Take care.


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 4, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> About cleandlyness...
> 
> For the sake of my patients, professionalism and less stressfull working environment, keep it clean!
> 
> ...



Lab coats not a bad idea!! I live in AZ its already 75 degrees during the days and the fucking bee's are out.. Anyways last night I was working in the garden with my hoodie sweater on and my ladies are at 7 1/2 weeks in bloom.. So of course I bumped some buds while I was tying them to the stakes.. Next day I'm ordering a burrito at the lunch truck and motherfucking bee's starting chilling on the shoulder and arm of my sweater !! lol like a good 6 to 7 bees... No lie the fucking bees wanted my fine MMJ pollen!


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## Rrog (Feb 7, 2013)

I keep the grow area tidy, and I don't track in mud and crap from outside. But I also understand that malicious microbes and insects will arrive despite any isolation regimen. So I plan on them arriving and the plants are pre-armed. Inoculated. Been clean since 2011.

If given support, the plant will offer surprising resistance. In soil the plant and microbes work together to combat predation. If no microbial relationship. the plant is definitely exposed and can suffer


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Feb 7, 2013)

Take a shower and change clothes, it compliments a hard days work in the garden nicely. BTW, Thanks for keeping it on topic, and answering his question at the same time Rrog +rep

I just made my first EM/BAM, can I use this is my AACT? Also, does anyone have experience with FPE's? Can you use this in AACT's?


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## Rrog (Feb 7, 2013)

I'm sure you could aerate the microbes to amplify just the same as if they came from EWC. 

FPE's are great of course, but lack a lot of the delicate enzymes, secondary metabolites and possibly some hormones. These degrade quickly and are not found in FPE's 

I'm not aware of why FPE couldn't be used in AACT. 

Did you collect the BIMs yourself?


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Feb 7, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I'm sure you could aerate the microbes to amplify just the same as if they came from EWC.
> 
> FPE's are great of course, but lack a lot of the delicate enzymes, secondary metabolites and possibly some hormones. These degrade quickly and are not found in FPE's
> 
> ...


I'm going to give it a try, I don't see why not either; thanks for assuring me. 

Yes I did. It was fun collecting them, a little stinky though. By the way I'm about to take a three day Korean Farming class. Should be fun. Maybe i'll bring this up in class. Thanks! Time to get bubbling. . .


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## Rrog (Feb 7, 2013)

Ask the Koreans what they think of EM-1...

Leave EM-1 out in the open and try and reproduce it. If done in the open, it will slowly drop in population each time you do this because the local BIM's are stronger for your area. EM-1 may be the top digester in some other part of the world or laboratory, but in your backyard, your BIM's will always rule. 

See the Gil Carandang link in my sig. He brought this info from Korea, but I have a feeling you are well aware of all of this good stuff!


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## trichome fiend (Feb 8, 2013)

...just sprouted seeds of broccoli, cauliflower and lettuce  ...gettin' stoked! ...can't wait to see how things turn out this year, I'll be dropping some pics once I plant into the ground. This will be my second year growing a no-till, mulch, purely organic garden...last year was amazing! 
...I plan on setting up a stand at the local farmer's market to sell the mass of my produce this year, advertised as organic with pics of the garden. I gave thousands of dollars of veggies away last season for the opinion of others on the quality...and needless to say, organic veggies DO have a very distinct, more flavorful taste.

....about to put my tiller on craigslist that I've had for about 5 years, lol....won't need it anymore.


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## Rrog (Feb 8, 2013)

What a great thing to read TF. So cool how you took this all and incorporated it into your life. Walk the walk.


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## Cann (Feb 8, 2013)

good to see you around trichome fiend...been a while

get that tiller out of here!!! you wont be needing it...ever. as rrog says, great to see you absorbing all this info and putting it into practice. 

you should try out some sprouted seed enzyme teas....you won't be disappointed.


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 8, 2013)

Cann said:


> good to see you around trichome fiend...been a while
> 
> get that tiller out of here!!! you wont be needing it...ever. as rrog says, great to see you absorbing all this info and putting it into practice.
> 
> you should try out some sprouted seed enzyme teas....you won't be disappointed.



You got a link for the enzyme teas Cann?? Thanks in advance.


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## Rrog (Feb 8, 2013)

Coconut water Tea: 15:1 dilution for soil drench or foliar

Seed Sprout Tea: Could be Barley, Alfalfa, corn, etc. 2 tablespoons of seeds (1 oz.) Soak for 12 hours. Drain that water and throw away. It&#8217;s full of growth inhibitors. Add 1/2 gallon of water to the sprouts for the 48 hour soak. Strain and use 1 cup of this to 1 gallon of water.

Aloe Tea: 2 Tablespoons of fresh Aloe Leaf Gel and add to 1 gallon of water.


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 8, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Coconut water Tea: 15:1 dilution for soil drench or foliar
> 
> Seed Sprout Tea: Could be Barley, Alfalfa, corn, etc. 2 tablespoons of seeds (1 oz.) Soak for 12 hours. Drain that water and throw away. It&#8217;s full of growth inhibitors. Add 1/2 gallon of water to the sprouts for the 48 hour soak. Strain and use 1 cup of this to 1 gallon of water.
> 
> Aloe Tea: 2 Tablespoons of fresh Aloe Leaf Gel and add to 1 gallon of water.



Good looking out Rrog!


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## Cann (Feb 8, 2013)

lol and he beat me to it....rrog the messenger! obviously that note compilation is coming along well sir...quick on the draw with those "recipes" or whatever we shall call them. i'll see if I can +rep you...

beaver and trichome fiend - give those a shot and _watch_ your plants respond...the other day I accidentally let one of my plants get pretty wilty (it was hidden by a larger plant so I couldn't see it easily) - hit it with a sprout tea and continued to work in the room - looked over 15 minutes later and it was picking up its leaves, which proceeded to go from full wilt to full pray over the course of the next hour (some of the leaves were f***ing vertical...i kid you not...i was kinda worried for a sec lol...). i could literally sit there and watch it as it raised its leaves in the air with joy! your plants will scream healthiness...its crazy. did not ever expect to see such amazing results from such a simple application...

as a wise old man once said.... _"enzymes"_


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## Rrog (Feb 8, 2013)

LOL! I am the messenger, that is all. I get the biggest kick out of this all. My grow perspective gets more and more simple. I feel like we're really zeroing in on the truth. 

Growing can be so simple and easy if we just grow the way the plants and microbes have evolved over the last few million years. Nature has everything we need. No need for a bottle.


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## Cann (Feb 8, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Growing can be so simple and easy if we just grow the way the plants and microbes have evolved over the last few million years. Nature has everything we need. No need for a bottle.


very well said. i'm gonna start a new grow journal soon that will be highlighting this fact. showcasing cootz methods basically - and how it compares to what i was doing before (roots organic line basically, 707 soil + buddha grow, buddha bloom, yada yada yada.) 

i know what the results will be already...but for the sake of science...and to convert those organic folks who are caught up in the hydro store buzz...

first i need to update my old journal and end things...then i will be starting anew. both on IC and here hopefully..if i have the time. i feel as though RIU needs help lol and i don't want to leave you alone with this mess! one phrase comes to mind when I think about you trying to be the messenger for the entire organics section here...

_"I suggest you drink heavily"
_


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 8, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Growing can be so simple and easy if we just grow the way the plants and microbes have evolved over the last few million years. Nature has everything we need. No need for a bottle.



AMen to that!


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## Rrog (Feb 8, 2013)

Cann, that's funny! I used to drink. There are a lot of folks here that would make the move to real soil if they were helped and confident


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## Cann (Feb 8, 2013)

yeah I think confidence is a huge part of it...your average grower doesn't have anyone trying to convince them that living soil is the best way to grow with pics and data to back it up...but there are plenty of journals showcasing how amazing hydro is etc. or showcasing nute lines, blah blah. with epic pictures of plants to convince the newb grower that the best results will come from hydro. 

all we need is a few folks who are doing this to start showing it off..should start to convert some of the masses. never going to the hydro store is a great hook as well. one trip for smartpots, bulbs, etc (if you are setting up a new operation) and you are set for months (maybe some pro-tekt if you don't have a source for agsil 16). that is something that 99% of growers cannot do. also the budget is a no-brainer...recycled living soil becomes almost free at a point, especially once you have integrated practices like bokashi, worm bins, sprouts, etc. 

It feels great buying things that will be used by the plants and myself, such as sprouts, coconut water, aloe, fulvic acid (wu-jin-san), etc. also the ability to turn all of my food scraps into compost and eventually flowers is very rewarding. and my worms get fed in the process 

once the system is up and running, everything works towards promoting health. the healthier I eat, the healthier my worms eat, the better quality my EWC is, the happier and healthier my plants are, and so on. slowly working towards the permaculture design in an urban setting...


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## Rrog (Feb 8, 2013)

This is it, exactly. Poor ol' natural soil has no commercial champion. Yet...


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## Cann (Feb 8, 2013)

*Yet...

*this one has had me thinking for a while...same with the amazing quality EWC deal i was talking to you about.

how does one go about bagging a living soil without destroying the quality? given that it will sit on shelves for at least a month or two...probably way more given the nature of the product lol

it wouldn't even be about the profit necessarily...its just about giving the consumer something that will 1. function, 2. produce quality medicine (not poison!!!!!), and 3. be reusable indefinitely with proper management (this is where the $$$ goes out the window...) 

i feel as though medical cannabis is getting a bad name because the stuff people are slanging as medicine is actually chemical grown pesticide covered trash. kills me when I see elderly folks buying and taking this stuff for their ailments without knowing exactly what they are doing...

so for the sake of the plant! grow it right if you're going to grow it at all...disrespectful to the mother cannabis otherwise..at least in my eyes lol

i would love to put my name behind a brand that provided such a product...


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## Rising Moon (Feb 8, 2013)

Brand EARTH brother!

I know all this is somewhat new to the cannabis scene, but I can't spread enough love to the folks out there growing true to the earth, but WORKING, HARD! To sell fruits and veggies for $5.00 a pound, or whatever it's worth that week. 

Imagine if all you needed to do was grow 30 tomato plants in your backyard and could pay all your bills from the sale of those fruits, like most of the medical "farmers" do...


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## Kalyx (Feb 9, 2013)

Cann very well put and I agree. Especially the 123, sounds sustainable but hard to bag as you point out. Sweat equity is a beautiful thing that is foreign to many modern humans, also hard to bag or we'd have a serious commercial champion!.

I was recently canned (no pun intended =]) from a synthetic hydro "medical" grow. It felt wrong and greedy selling that "medicine" to sick folks. I did good work and helped improve the quality of their "medicine" but all my employers cared about was yield. I wish I had not showed them so many techniques to yield more, more crap to profit off of for a "non-profit" producer. Anyway...

I am now employed at a start up medical producer who is big into TLO and living soil all organic. It feels good to go to work and grow as my experience and ethic has led me to grow for myself. 

Danks to everyone on RUI keeping the organic chatter interesting and relevant, not just to our cannabis plants and gardens but to raising the quality and vibe of everything we do on our journey down this path. Danks for all the info and sharing, together we will get simpler and danker a bit quicker.


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## NickNasty (Feb 10, 2013)

So I have been looking at whole house filters to get rid of the chloramine in my tap water because it is supposed to be bad for my microbial life in my soil. I have a filter now that fills a 55 gal and then I water from that. But I dislike it because I dont get much water pressure and can't use a wand to water with because of the lack of pressure. What I have come to find out is that many filters will reduce chloramine but most will not get rid of it totally and the ones that will are super expensive and the filters will need to be replaced often. So while doing research I came along a page and it was talking about vitamin C filters working better then other filters at getting rid of chloramine. I had never heard of a vitamin C filter so I googled it and what came up were vitamin C shower filters. Since I use amended soil I thought these would be perfect for using on my hoses before my garden wand.

My question is does anybody see any issues with using a vitamin C filter in my garden?

Here are some links to the filters and other info
http://www.natureswayresources.com/resource/infosheets/chloramine.html
http://www.pure-earth.com/vitashower.html
http://sonakishowerheads.com/inline-shower-water-filter.html


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## Rising Moon (Feb 11, 2013)

Hmm never heard of it either. But I do know some people add vit. C to foilar sprays, with positive results. 

I recently bought a Berkley gravity water filter for emergancy purposes, and it's filter is made from D.E. (azomite) 

It won't filter certain things, but will treat any water, without chemicals and make it safe to drink.


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 11, 2013)

I bought a aloe plant from the nursery on Saturday. WHen making a Aloe juice spray does one just skin the pieces of aloe and mix it with water before foliar spraying??


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 11, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> So I have been looking at whole house filters to get rid of the chloramine in my tap water because it is supposed to be bad for my microbial life in my soil. I have a filter now that fills a 55 gal and then I water from that. But I dislike it because I dont get much water pressure and can't use a wand to water with because of the lack of pressure. What I have come to find out is that many filters will reduce chloramine but most will not get rid of it totally and the ones that will are super expensive and the filters will need to be replaced often. So while doing research I came along a page and it was talking about vitamin C filters working better then other filters at getting rid of chloramine. I had never heard of a vitamin C filter so I googled it and what came up were vitamin C shower filters. Since I use amended soil I thought these would be perfect for using on my hoses before my garden wand.
> 
> My question is does anybody see any issues with using a vitamin C filter in my garden?
> 
> ...


Over on Grasscity a few ppl say that Vitamin C works.
As far as I've learned you can bubble all you water like a week or so before you use it. That'll help.
And you can try filtering it thru a carbon filter. I've read that works a while back while I was ponder the same questions after reading True Living Organics.

I live near mountains and streams tho so I think my water it good. I sit it out over the course of the week and bubble it the day before I plan to use it, like I do with AACTs. Haven't had an issue yet!! 

Also read that those filtes often add things to the water to make the safer to drink like RM said!


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## Cann (Feb 11, 2013)

I have heard of folks using good EWC to neutralize the chloramine/chlorine. you sacrifice a small amount of the microbiology to the chemicals, but there is soo much activity in the EWC that the chlorine and chloramine get "used up" effectively. not sure on the actual science of this...but i believe MM was the one who said this. maybe check microbeorganics.com and see if he mentions it there...

rrog, does this sound right to you?


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## NickNasty (Feb 11, 2013)

Well I know that humic acid and humus neutralize chlorine/chloramine and I use that in my compost teas and it is also in my soil. But the reason I am asking about this vitamin c filter is I want pressurized water so I can use a sprayer connected to a hose to water my plants so I don't have to bend over or move a bunch of plants to water them. I have a small boy with a kdf 85 filter and was going to get a whole house filter with a kdf 85 filter and may still but after doing some reading I found out that to truly get rid of all the chloramine with a catalytic carbon filter you can't filter over 1 gpm and to get good flow from a whole house filter you need 6-7 gpm


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## Cann (Feb 11, 2013)

id be wary of vitamin c given that it's an acid...don't want too much of that in your water I wouldn't think. Maybe filter all your water into a large tank using RO, and then use a pump/hose setup to achieve pressure? make sure your hose is clean as well...most hoses aren't regulated and contain large amounts of BPA, etc. gatorhyde is a good brand to look at...


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## Rising Moon (Feb 11, 2013)

Cann said:


> id be wary of vitamin c given that it's an acid...don't want too much of that in your water I wouldn't think. Maybe filter all your water into a large tank using RO, and then use a pump/hose setup to achieve pressure? make sure your hose is clean as well...most hoses aren't regulated and contain large amounts of BPA, etc. gatorhyde is a good brand to look at...



My nightmare 3 years ago was trying to buy hoses that aren't toxic to water my vegetable garden, I found some, but they are crap! And like $10 more...

They lasted about half the season before becoming leaky pieces of shit. 

I just bucked it up, and carry water in 3 gal metal cans directly from my small spring fed creek. 

Wating is now a day long event. But no plastics/lead in my garden!

We shall see how many years of this my back can take...


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 11, 2013)

Anything NSF 61 approved should be good for your garden.. Anything in the food / beverage industry must be NSF 61 approved.. So i'm sure they sell water hoses that meet NSF standards.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 11, 2013)

Still made from PVC. 

Ill stick with my old school metal cans...

Although the very old method using bamboo would be ideal. 

I once watched a whole documentary on primitive irrigation techniques. And the Chinese and Indian farmers were genius at diverting water through bamboo, where ever they needed it. Even drip systems like this. 

Inspirtational to say the least.


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## NickNasty (Feb 11, 2013)

Cann said:


> id be wary of vitamin c given that it's an acid...don't want too much of that in your water I wouldn't think. Maybe filter all your water into a large tank using RO, and then use a pump/hose setup to achieve pressure? make sure your hose is clean as well...most hoses aren't regulated and contain large amounts of BPA, etc. gatorhyde is a good brand to look at...


I may have to just test one out. I looked into Vitamin C and ph and in 5 gal tap water with a ph of 7.6, 2.5g of ascorbic acid brought the ph down to 6.2
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]Looked at my local water company to see what the average ph of the water was and it was 9.4 so it may actually help bring the ph down a bit.

Good looking out on the hoses Cann I actually got 1 gatorhyde hose but need to get a couple more.


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## Cann (Feb 11, 2013)

oh wow...9.4 out the tap! jesus...

and interesting about the pH change...less noticeable than I would've imagined. I say go for it (on a test plant) and let us know how it turns out. curious...

bout to order another gatorhyde today lol  time to start thinking about spring gardening


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## Rising Moon (Feb 12, 2013)

Oh man Cann, don't get me started, I'm going to be growing some crops for a local grocery store this summer (mostly cherry tomatoes/heirlooms) and its so hard to narrow down my seed order. But I found a new local composting facility that is making all sorts of interesting mixes like composted cow manure, limestone, gypsum and wood ash with options to add all sorts of goodies like greensand, kelp meal, azomite, oyster shells. I'm going to have a dump truck cover my driveway as soon as this snow is done and gone. Should be a prolific year in my medical greenhouse and vegetable garden.


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## headtreep (Feb 15, 2013)

Just watered my ladies with Nettle, Comfrey, and neem tea. Bitches are singing!!!

Edit: added Aloe and coconut water standard


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## Rrog (Feb 15, 2013)

That's GREAT!!!

Do you try these as a foliar?


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## NickNasty (Feb 15, 2013)

Hey Rrog what are your thoughts on the vitamin c filter?


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 15, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Just watered my ladies with Nettle, Comfrey, and neem tea. Bitches are singing!!!
> 
> Edit: added Aloe and coconut water standard



That malibu compost mix I bought has comfrey in it !!! Yeaaaaaaah Boy!


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## headtreep (Feb 15, 2013)

Rrog said:


> That's GREAT!!!
> 
> Do you try these as a foliar?


All the time. Look at the results:


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## headtreep (Feb 15, 2013)

Those dudes MM, CC, and others give some pretty fuckin solid advice. If only the newbs would look there


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## NickNasty (Feb 15, 2013)

headtreep your plants look great. Where do you get your nettle and comfrey from.


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## headtreep (Feb 15, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> headtreep your plants look great. Where do you get your nettle and comfrey from.


Mountain rose out of OR.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 15, 2013)

Good herbs, good people. 

If anyone wants some Comfrey root cuttings to grow out, after this summer I'll have plenty to give away. Just ask!

Some of the roots I potted up last fall are growing nicely in an east facing window, and as soon as spring gets going, I'm fixing to make up a proper comfrey bed once and for all! (I've been just letting some grow in the shade next to the compost pile for a year or two)

An old farmer I know told me to chop my roots up pretty good, and bury the chunks where I want them. They should completly fill the bed I give them in a summer or two.


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## NickNasty (Feb 15, 2013)

Hey headtreep What is the ratio on the tea I know its in this thread somewhere but am not having any luck with finding it.


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## headtreep (Feb 15, 2013)

Aloe and coconut are basically 15:1 and the others 2 handfuls of each in 4 gal RO and bubble. I don't measure anything just eyeball. I like to make shit simple that's why I went to organics


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## Redbird1223 (Feb 15, 2013)

wow I got lost over there for a minute

http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/search/search.php?refine=y&keywords=Comfrey+Leaf


here is a link I had for live plants

https://www.horizonherbs.com/product.asp?specific=917


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## headtreep (Feb 15, 2013)

Redbird1223 said:


> wow I got lost over there for a minute
> 
> http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/search/search.php?refine=y&keywords=Comfrey+Leaf
> 
> ...



It would be really ideal and cheap to grow your own. I plan to soon.


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## NickNasty (Feb 15, 2013)

I would have bought them just now but the nettle wouldn't be shipped till April. But it gives me some time to find it locally.


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## headtreep (Feb 15, 2013)

Check ebay they have some organic herbs.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 15, 2013)

I'm about to place my order right now on Amazon and they've got a good selection as well! Thx HT


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 15, 2013)

How fast do you go thru it? Or better yet, how long does the 1lb bag last you?


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## headtreep (Feb 15, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> How fast do you go thru it? Or better yet, how long does the 1lb bag last you?


Since I make light teas and always I'm switching ingredients, I would say that would last you awhile depending on your garden size.

I'm always mixing ingredients or running straight ewc/compost and RO to help with diversity. I will tell you that almost all my teas have kelp meal as a base.


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## Rrog (Feb 15, 2013)

Natural soil, simple teas, some of your own VermiCompost... No simple and so natural.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 15, 2013)

Just saw you said a couple handfuls per 4gal. You were talking about the comfrey and nettle leaf right?


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## headtreep (Feb 15, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Just saw you said a couple handfuls per 4gal. You were talking about the comfrey and nettle leaf right?


Yes! It prob like a cup or cup in a half or so. I tend to always go on the lighter side.


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## headtreep (Feb 15, 2013)

Enjoy this TLO nug. I don't use shit in a bottle.


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## Rrog (Feb 15, 2013)

mmmmmmmmm......


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## headtreep (Feb 15, 2013)

I was just reading on ICMag the CC doesn't use Comfrey is teas anymore. Looks like it's better to put it straight in the soil or prob topdress/mulch.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 15, 2013)

My worms LOVE Comfrey along with Nettle, Wakame Seaweed and Red Clover Flowers.


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## scugg (Feb 18, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I understand. My op is down until fall. I'm moving. Other than that, just trying to be a messenger. Very cool to see you. I always loved your avatar.


And a good messenger you are!!


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## scugg (Feb 18, 2013)

Rrog said:


> LOL! I am the messenger, that is all. I get the biggest kick out of this all. My grow perspective gets more and more simple. I feel like we're really zeroing in on the truth.
> 
> Growing can be so simple and easy if we just grow the way the plants and microbes have evolved over the last few million years. Nature has everything we need. No need for a bottle.


Even the big guns, CC gascan etc, are messengers. Just spreading the truth, and doing so for the sake of sharing instead of personal gain. No one can take credit for these "methods" other than mother nature. People can take credit for trying to replicate nature and sharing their experience doing it. That's what you and the rest of the gang are doing and its great.


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## headtreep (Feb 18, 2013)

I'm bubbling some homemade EWC, BioFlora compost, molasses, kelp, and alfalfa. Gonna bubble that for 24-36 hours depending when I get to it. Drench and foliar with tea and aloe/coconut. 

You can purchase my tea for the low low price of 29.99 enough for 2 batches!!!!! haha


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 18, 2013)

headtreep said:


> I'm bubbling some homemade EWC, BioFlora compost, molasses, kelp, and alfalfa. Gonna bubble that for 24-36 hours depending when I get to it. Drench and foliar with tea and aloe/coconut.
> 
> You can purchase my tea for the low low price of 29.99 enough for 2 batches!!!!! haha


" OG Super Sauce"


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## headtreep (Feb 18, 2013)

Whats up with all this bs about bottled nutes so convenient and easy. We got it easy that`s pretty much it. Handful of this and dash of that. Get with the program.


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## Cann (Feb 18, 2013)

so headtreep = invocation eh? I knew I had seen that nug pic already recently...LOL


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## headtreep (Feb 19, 2013)

Yup. Invo is my old handle which I like better.


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## headtreep (Feb 19, 2013)

Morning dirtbags! Thought I'd share my Gogi OG that I just drenched her and her sisters with nice dark Guinness colored tea made of fresh EWC, Bioflora Compost, Alfalfa, Kelp Meal, and Molasses. I also added coconut water and aloe at the end.


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## Rrog (Feb 19, 2013)

Wow! Lookin' really good! Finger lickin'


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## headtreep (Feb 19, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Wow! Lookin' really good! Finger lickin'


Thanks bro! I'm working on finding me some winners in 2013!!!


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## Cann (Feb 19, 2013)

yummmmmmm.

and yeah I like invocation better as well...has a nice ring to it. 

what are your current "winners"? just curious...


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 19, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Morning dirtbags! Thought I'd share my Gogi OG that I just drenched her and her sisters with nice dark Guinness colored tea made of fresh EWC, Bioflora Compost, Alfalfa, Kelp Meal, and Molasses. I also added coconut water and aloe at the end.


What's that AACT mix looking like?! Your recipe??


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## Rrog (Feb 19, 2013)

Headtreep, you're doing AACT? I'm weirdly compelled to badmouth AACT every time I hear it. I think it is one of these BS side businesses that sprang up to sell stoners. If you Google it, you'll see that no one else employs AACT for commercial horticulture. That's clue #1 that something stinks in Denmark


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## Cann (Feb 19, 2013)

Or they might apply AACT _*once*_ to get things started in a _poorly established_ garden. If you're soil food web is happy and healthy, the addition of AACT is questionable at best...i would agree with rrog here. I used to be convinced AACT was a great thing, then I started thinking about it from the perspective of the soil microbes...


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## headtreep (Feb 19, 2013)

No, I don't use that term AACT but I do use ACT. In my above post I just made a basic tea with those in small amounts but was schooled on using so many ingredients over on the mag. I guess I should keep my compost/ewc teas seperate from my herbal teas and not use both together. Make sense to me and luckily I use such small amounts it's not gonna hurt imo.


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## Cann (Feb 19, 2013)

topdress it all...then water with one or all of the following: aloe, coconut, sprouted seed enzyme tea. I also use ful-power and pro-tekt in every watering, and TM-7 (once a month..key trace nutrients) 

imo the topdress will do you just as good as an ACT while allowing your soil food web to come into balance. Topdressing will take a few weeks to become available...but this shouldn't be an issue given how your lady looks LOL. 

I applied an ACT once this flower cycle and it was because I am flowering in poor soil and they were starting to yellow around week 4. Kelp, Alfalfa, EWC, pro-tekt, and aloe - it stopped the yellowing and has helped a bit...

but the real kicker is the 2'' EWC topdress which I applied at the same time - much more effective IMO, it is now around week 6 and they are looking very happy  still losing some leaves here and there, but I don't mind some fall colors in my crop


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## headtreep (Feb 19, 2013)

Cann said:


> topdress it all...then water with one or all of the following: aloe, coconut, sprouted seed enzyme tea. I also use ful-power and pro-tekt in every watering, and TM-7 (once a month..key trace nutrients)
> 
> imo the topdress will do you just as good as an ACT while allowing your soil food web to come into balance. Topdressing will take a few weeks to become available...but this shouldn't be an issue given how your lady looks LOL.
> 
> ...



Yeah maybe I'm just overkill hehe. I topdress 2" with EWC/Compost as well. I say one thing. My plants are healthy as hell so I have to be doing something right. I think I will stick to more basic teas though and not get too carried away. I do many foliars with silica/neem and also add silica powder to my waterings. My plants feel fake literally lol.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 19, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Headtreep, you're doing AACT? I'm weirdly compelled to badmouth AACT every time I hear it. I think it is one of these BS side businesses that sprang up to sell stoners. If you Google it, you'll see that no one else employs AACT for commercial horticulture. That's clue #1 that something stinks in Denmark


Care to go on with badmouthing AACTs? I'm curious as to what you might have to say


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 19, 2013)

Cann said:


> Or they might apply AACT _*once*_ to get things started in a _poorly established_ garden. If you're soil food web is happy and healthy, the addition of AACT is questionable at best...i would agree with rrog here. I used to be convinced AACT was a great thing, then I started thinking about it from the perspective of the soil microbes...



Care to elaborate? I've been using them 3/4 waterings from about 2 weeks old with the thought in mind that I'm constantly adding life to my soil ecosystem.
Microbes constantly die or are consumed, so why would it be a bad idea to constantly replenish them? Or why does it seem like a gimmick?
Ever visit Grasscity?

But your saying using AACT's is questionable at best?? Do you water only? And only foliar feed?

*edit-I know that hella question but I've never seen someone say using AACTs is questionable at best in all of the hour that I've put in between forums over the past year. So I'm really curious about your view from the microbes POV


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## Cann (Feb 19, 2013)

_*"My plants feel fake literally lol."*_​




Beef jerky leaves...i know the feeling. the more and more I think about this whole gardening thing the further I am leaning towards simplicity. Mimic the patterns of nature. 

Build a good soil _once_, establish a healthy soil food web by letting the soil sit and through the application of _one_ ACT and a cover crop (if you please). Plant your vegetable - in this instance cannabis, topdress with fresh amazing EWC (#1 factor for continuing a successful no-till IMO), water with enzymes of sorts (sprouted seeds, diastatic malt, coconut h2o), and let the soil take care of things. 

Continue to water and feed enzymes and silica on occasion...you're golden. Foliars if you want - not necessarily mimicking the patterns of nature but I still do it for insect supression, etc. Neem/protekt once a week, either coconut, sprouted seed, or aloe twice a week in some sort of random order depending on what I have. 

At harvest, chop the plant at the base, replant in the same spot immediately (take advantage of the active mycorrhizae and such in the soil), topdress with ewc, water with enzyme tea. done. maybe do some crop cycling after _multiple cycles_ and grow clover for a bit, or topdress some kelp, neem, and crab meals to replenish. 

at least that's what makes sense to me...bout to put it into practice once I feel my soil is ready for the challenge. 


oh yeah, and don't forget to flush!!!


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## Cann (Feb 19, 2013)

_"I'm constantly adding life to my soil ecosystem"_

This is the problem here...think about it this way: Your soil (if let be) is a finely tuned ecosystem where constant life and death is happening. Bacteria, fungi, nematodes, protozoa, micro and macroarthropods are all coexisting in some sort of manner, with the "good" guys keeping the "bad" ones in check, and everyone regulating each others populations based on the _conditions in the soil._ These conditions are affected by what the plant exudes, meaning the plant is keeping the microbe levels in check for you (in the most simple terms). This is why measuring pH in organic soil is a joke...it is always changing with the swapping of H+ and OH- as the plant gathers what it needs from the soil (or rather as the microbes gather for the plant). 

Dump an ACT on that with billions of microbes (of questionable nature most likely unless you have you're method down perfectly and own a microscope...) and it is akin to dumping all of the folks in New York City onto downtown L.A. _Madness._

At least this is my understanding...like I said ACT can be used _once _to establish the food web...but once the web is established - _leave it alone!
_
Rrog explains it much more eloquently than I...


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 19, 2013)

I built a good soil from the start then watered & turned every so often, and it sit for a month before potted into it. I understand that.
You said from the microbes POV you don't think it's a good idea inoculate with AACTs, why?

I've top dress on occasion as well. Maybe once every 3 wks or so up until wk 4 of flowering as well, and am aware of the benefits and the fact that they says it takes a couple weeks to become available.

I don't wanna foliar for any added nutritional value, just for leaf protection more.

When I harvest, I plant on reusing my soil but not right away. I'll re-amend heavily with compost and lightly with more mineral and nutritonal amendments, then let it cycle. I don't plan on drop the next plant in the same hole, but i know of a "guru" that does it so I won't knock it!

and have you ever been to grasscity? You should check out the organics section over there..There are a gang of growers doing BIG things who swear by AACTs and use them with ever watering with a "working" soil.
http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/1110985-act-aerated-compost-tea.html <- This is the AACT thread incase you haven't seen it.

Seems to me that using a regular compost tea would be more of a waste of time.
And what you mean about that flushing? I don't remember us having an inside joke lol so I'm mad confused


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 19, 2013)

Cann said:


> _"I'm constantly adding life to my soil ecosystem"_
> 
> This is the problem here...think about it this way: Your soil (if let be) is a finely tuned ecosystem where constant life and death is happening. Bacteria, fungi, nematodes, protozoa, micro and macroarthropods are all coexisting in some sort of manner, with the "good" guys keeping the "bad" ones in check, and everyone regulating each others populations based on the _conditions in the soil._ These conditions are affected by what the plant exudes, meaning the plant is keeping the microbe levels in check for you (in the most simple terms). This is why measuring pH in organic soil is a joke...it is always changing with the swapping of H+ and OH- as the plant gathers what it needs from the soil (or rather as the microbes gather for the plant).
> 
> ...


What?! Lol Things we use in the teas serve different purposes as well like Bat Guano which helps control the population of predatory nematodes in soil. Not to mention kelp meal and molasses.
I don't get the New City City onto downtown LA thing...Unless you mean just making it busy?? Which goes against all that I've learned so far.
I started at grasscity and made my way here. But I started with learning about soil and AACTs and guys over there who are gurus by probably all of our standards use AACTs with EVERY watering.


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## headtreep (Feb 19, 2013)

That's what I thought about ACT. I thought you could never use too much and that MM did say the same. I make my ACT pretty similar to his after checking out his website again. I do own a microscope and seem to get better results when I use ACT often. Huge yields that are greasy ass nugs. I'm gonna stick with what I'm doing just use more stand alone ingredients which makes sense.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Feb 19, 2013)

Yea you can use just EWC, just as you would AACT. Their is no right or wrong in way, just the organic way of us doing our job and healing the earth. These last ten pages have been a pissing competition. All I gotta say is positions of power attract people on power trips, lets spread the knowledge; but be a little more humane about it and stop hating on everybody. Your guys tone...It's unbeliviable. I tried telling you guys all you needed was quality EWC awhile back, doesn't mean this is the only "true living" organic way; you get with the program I've been doing this since you were in high school. Stop downing on everybody, they might kiss your ass but I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. Put your activist side away before you post or get medicated. One of the two.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Feb 19, 2013)

I mean C'MON most of y'all are parrots who just started growing organic within the pass year, squawking off what you heard from another organic noob. Lets agree to disargree. In my reality their is no right or wrong way, just the organic way. If you take that literal you deserve a slappin.lol
Peace out!


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## Cann (Feb 19, 2013)

_"I thought you could never use too much and that MM did say the same"_​
Heres where you have to realize, unfortunately, MM is selling teas and tea related products...therefore an ACT every watering = potentially more $$$. Not that he isnt an awesome, inspiring, intelligent dude...just putting it in perspective. Again, look to commercial horticulture - nobody is applying ACT's with any kind of frequency. 

The stuff on grasscity is a bit dated IMO...I refer to ICmag for most things currently..._clackamascootz_ for most things to be exact. he is the sage, the great messenger who's message we are continuing to trickle down...

he doesn't advocate the constant use of ACT last time I checked...

also if you are wondering, _lumpedawgz_ (or one of the variations) is his handle on grasscity. 


about the microbes POV - if you are part of that soil food web community and all of a sudden you are flooded with "invaders" (whatever these may be - even if they are considered "beneficial"), the food web all of a sudden has unnaturally high amounts of activity, which it then has to metabolize or deal with in some manner, which I believe would lead to unneeded stress of some sort. It just isn't necessary. Run a side by side with enzyme teas and see - they are the future IMO. not about the microbes, but the _enzymes_ use enzymes to catalyse the reactions in the soil instead of trying to use billions of additional microbes. 


again this is just my opinion...didn't use to be but it has changed recently thanks to a few folks...I'm sure ACT with every watering can give great results..the question becomes: _is it necessary?_


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Feb 19, 2013)

Everyone does things different.thats like asking is organics necessary. Their is no one way, period!


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 19, 2013)

*I guess we just agree to disagree and leave it at that huh?* I didn't mean no pun or now shit with my question..Just was curious as to why you thought what you did and now I know.
I didn't think we needed a referee either "SpliffAnyMyLady", but to each his own right. I'm as calm as can be atm. There's no emotion to be read into here.
Just a discussion. I ain't pissing. It's your tone pushing things that way

And I know it doesn't really matter how long any of us have been growing, it matters what we've managed to learn, retain, and apply in that time.


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## headtreep (Feb 19, 2013)

Yeah I hear you Cann. It's best that I keep learning and perfecting my teas. I thought cc was lump hehe.


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## Cann (Feb 19, 2013)

unmistakable writing style and sense of humor lol...took me 1 or two CC posts to realize...bingo


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## Rrog (Feb 19, 2013)

There are many roads to Rome. Spinning a vortex brewer is one. It would be good to look at what we're doing with this tea. 

In your bubbler / vortex you grow a lot of bacteria that eat the various nutrients in the compost. You are also increasing protozoa. The bacteria take up a lot of the nutrients during this spin cycle. OK so fattened up bacteria and protozoa tea just ready to burst with all that microlife.

Now when you pour the AACT on the soil, the bacteria get eaten by the protozoa, and the protozoa die off and finally release the nutrient package. Whew! All this happens pretty fast. The beauty of this method is the speed of delivery. This is a fast nutrient delivery method that is great to get a new soil rocking.

Otherwise a natural soil with a plant is bangin' all on its own. There is no need to replace microbes, or add microbes, or even add "special" microbes. The soil already has all of these and in the ratio and quantity the plant wants. 

You can get this same nutrient payload just using the handful of compost you started with for the AACT. Just gradual and more natural. It's my preference, as well as the choice of horticulture professionals. As Cann smartly pointed out, you won't find this method used much outside of the MJ crowd.


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## headtreep (Feb 19, 2013)

Less is more. Repeat.....


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 19, 2013)

Rrog said:


> There are many roads to Rome. Spinning a vortex brewer is one. It would be good to look at what we're doing with this tea.
> 
> In your bubbler / vortex you grow a lot of bacteria that eat the various nutrients in the compost. You are also increasing protozoa. The bacteria take up a lot of the nutrients during this spin cycle. OK so fattened up bacteria and protozoa tea just ready to burst with all that microlife.
> 
> ...


Have you ever seen the organics section over at Grasscity? Do you know it's night and day? What your saying in regards to only needing the AACT once, and how the community there uses them.

You say it like your trying to bring Microbeman to Rollitup. And I know for a fact that you'll find AACT use everywhere man. What do you mean?

And I don't mean to come off argumentative, its just that what your saying goes against that grain of everything that I've learned pretty much


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 19, 2013)

*Now when you pour the AACT on the soil, the bacteria get eaten by the protozoa, and the protozoa die off and finally release the nutrient package. Whew! All this happens pretty fast. The beauty of this method is the speed of delivery. This is a fast nutrient delivery method that is great to get a new soil rocking.
-ALSO great for the Rhizosphere are AACTs. Not just new soils is my point. Everytime you use one you get a benefit from it.
Fungi is also brewed with the bacteria and protozoa.

Otherwise a natural soil with a plant is bangin' all on its own. There is no need to replace microbes, or add microbes, or even add "special" microbes. The soil already has all of these and in the ratio and quantity the plant wants. *
*-There may not be a need to replace the microbes in a good soil, but what a good soil? And how many of us have microscopes to see what kinda life we have exactly? 
Doesn't matter what ratio of beneficial microbes are in the soil. The plants will get what they need as they need it.

*Again, don't mean to be argumentative..Maybe I'll learn something that I didn't just a few hours ago, in the next few. I'm just expressing my POV.


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## Rrog (Feb 19, 2013)

What you've learned from stoner forums, you mean. No offense, but there's a lot unusual growing info on these forums. And make no mistake- AACT is a valid delivery system if you need to correct something awful or get something wonderful started. Or do it daily if you enjoy it.

Soil is an active breeding ground of microbes. It's nature. Been evolving for millions of years. You don't need to dump microbes because the microbe population is dwindling. The soil's bursting already

The soil microbes are busy storing all the nutrients and as they get depleted, I am also adding back as top dressing. So simple it's boring. I'm not in a hurry.

Think of it this way- An AACT starts with X nutrients from the compost or whatever. The microbes in the tea take it in. Before you pour in the soil your tea has... X nutrients. The microbes are not creating nutrients. They are helping deliver them.

So if I don't need to replenish microbes and am not in a hurry, I choose to not bother with anything more than a bubbler in a Barley Sprout tea.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 19, 2013)

Don't underestimate a stranger bro. I share with probably 40 different books regarding the law, organic gardening, and cannabis cultivation in a few clicks.
My mindset wasn't built by any forum.
But I'll agree to disagree with the fact that you think AACTs are unnecessary beyond one use, and I'll site Grasscity as just one reference for that alone.
But hey best wishes and a prosperous 2013


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## Cann (Feb 19, 2013)

_Sincerely _- if you want some insight as to where Rrog and I are coming from on this, here you go: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241964

start readin....LOL

took me a few weeks...well worth your time. It might not seem like it's about AACT's at first, but it'll come up. the documentation of a learning process...


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## Rrog (Feb 19, 2013)

Why does no one else use this technique? I find that compelling in and of itself. 

The more I learn, the simpler the answer is.

I'm not looking to talk down to you. My apologies if you took it that way.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 19, 2013)

Cann said:


> _Sincerely _- if you want some insight as to where Rrog and I are coming from on this, here you go: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241964
> 
> start readin....LOL
> 
> took me a few weeks...well worth your time. It might not seem like it's about AACT's at first, but it'll come up. the documentation of a learning process...



Gonna have at it tonight boss. I'm an open mind so well see where it goes


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 19, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Why does no one else use this technique? I find that compelling in and of itself.
> 
> The more I learn, the simpler the answer is.
> 
> I'm not looking to talk down to you. My apologies if you took it that way.


If by no one you mean all of Grasscity's organic community pretty much then I guess no one does.
I'm having awesome results doing things this way. And I find that more compelling.
But I have a lot to learn so a year from now maybe I'll feel different that I do hey?!
I appreciate your apology so thanks for that. I'm not here to argue with emotion, but rather with logic.
So my apologies for my tone as well. I reach as much as I can tho. And not just forums..I'm everywhere about everything related to the art.
I can just credit Grasscity for my gardening style.

But you did say that there isn't one road to Rome right?!


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 19, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Gonna have at it tonight boss. I'm an open mind so well see where it goes


Yerooo I just saw someone on the link you provided citing MM in their making of an AACT today.
And that's where I start learning about AACTs w/ MM and the Grasscity gang. 

I guess I have to keep looking??


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

One thing I would like to add, based off what I know, and logically can think through. 

Compost teas are GREAT, but especially so, if you don't have enough compost to spread around. 

And it seems that, what is missing from most of this talk, is the actual compost. Not worm castings, compost. 

Because, based on my 6 or so years of intensely studying organics and growing a TON of varieties of vegetables, herbs, flowers and cannabis,

It seems that if one has enough high quality compost and organic matter in the soil, teas are unessisary. Albeit fun to make...

And all this simplicity we talk about is right under our noses,

Because properly made, diversified compost, should contain everything nessisary for plants to grow. 

And this is what all these teas are trying to mimic, in a liquid form.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 20, 2013)

Cann said:


> _Sincerely _- if you want some insight as to where Rrog and I are coming from on this, here you go: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241964
> 
> start readin....LOL
> 
> took me a few weeks...well worth your time. It might not seem like it's about AACT's at first, but it'll come up. the documentation of a learning process...


And this all goes back to Microbeman bro. http://microbeorganics.com/ 
I started reading his stuff at Grasscity which brought my to my ways. Was there anything specific you meant for me to see?


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

There are a MILLION ways to grow plants. 

But, ONE is indisputable, and that is the worldwide practice of making and using compost (a million ways to do this too)

And this is how we are all united. 

Rot on everybody.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Feb 20, 2013)

I've had some stragglers germinate and grow in my compost. Talk about easy growing. Perk to throwing your duds in your bin.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 20, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> One thing I would like to add, based off what I know, and logically can think through.
> 
> Compost teas are GREAT, but especially so, if you don't have enough compost to spread around.
> 
> ...


"It seems that if one has enough high quality compost and organic matter in the soil, teas are unessisary. Albeit fun to make..."

So you think AACTs are unnecessary if you have high quality compost and organic matter why?? You think they do nothing for the soil or the plants?


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Because the compost (humus) is the medium for the life of the soil, and the fuel is organic matter. 

Teas are great, and have benificial effects, but like I said, they are really great for people like me who have difficulty making enough compost for all my plants. (I try!)

Ive got about 1 acre in intensive production (mostly vegetables and blueberries), and would need to make about 5-10 tons of compost per year if I wanted to spread it over my whole garden. 

Insted, I have devised a complicated series of crop rotations, green manures, teas and mineral applications. 

Giving compost and minerals directly to the heaviest feeders, and teas for everybody else, slowly rotating everything through with legumes being planted every 3 crops. 

This way, I can take a bed by bed approach to maintaining my soil fertility. 

(most of what I say is in reference to growing outside in the earth)

My indoor techniques are very similar, without cover crops. (although I am going to be experimenting with under sowing micro clover with indoor cannabis)


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

An organic farmer in Austria has developed permanent fertility, through crop rotations and regular additions of fresh grass clippings as mulch. No compost, no teas, NO TILL. 

Microbes + Organic matter = success


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

You can top dress with dry compost, or make a quick compost slurry with water, or a full blown aerated tea. All will have the same nutrients.

I was suggesting you look outside the MJ growing business to see uses this method. Rest assured, we weed growers have no unique insight into plants that the rest of the horticultural community doesn't have so why are weedies the only ones to use this aerated tea? Because it's redundant.

You can feed a plant daily on AACT. No problem. You'd get the same thing from top dressing and watering in, it's just not as immediate. Same thing.

Again, no one is saying AACT is bad. At least I'm certainly not. What some of us are saying is that there's no compelling reason to do this, when there are several other teas that in fact bring something new to the party. Hormones, plant enzymes and secondary metabolites all come from a botanical tea with Alfalfa, Barley, Aloe, Coconut, Corn, nettles, etc.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 20, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> An organic farmer in Austria has developed permanent fertility, through crop rotations and regular additions of fresh grass clippings as mulch. No compost, no teas, NO TILL.
> 
> Microbes + Organic matter = success


I can find you 10 organic farmers who use no till organics and have developed permanent soil fertility by using AACTs.
One of those would be Microbeman.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 20, 2013)

Rrog said:


> You can top dress with dry compost, or make a quick compost slurry with water, or a full blown aerated tea. All will have the same nutrients.
> 
> I was suggesting you look outside the MJ growing business to see uses this method. Rest assured, we weed growers have no unique insight into plants that the rest of the horticultural community doesn't have so why are weedies the only ones to use this aerated tea? Because it's redundant.
> 
> ...


I got ya. Well I guess there's nothing else to be said that hasn't been said, so with that said, best of luck in your future endeavors sir! Maybe I'll learn something here on using AACTs in the next year that might move me away from them. Maybe I'll never understand what you guys means since I learned so different. I mean its literally a different world over at grasscity and the convo couldn't have been had peacefully. 

I guess I'll take this over there and what I comeback with. Until then il be using AACTs 3 out of 4 waterings. 
I guess I'm with few from this crowd on my road to Rome lol! But hey, I see all things green from working the way that I do. No ill effects Only a deep lush green, so something's working out for me! I just don't think it's fair to say that they're unnecessary. Just doesn't feel right after everything..

Look at the title of this thread!


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

I was actually thinking the title should be changed. 

Soil food web: gardening with microbes


Now my question for you !

How long do the microbes in AACT live for once in the soil? What do they live on?

Without continuous additions of sugar, most of the action in my tea stops, and bad smells start to form. 

Without a food sorce in the soil, wouldn't those sugar loving organisms die off rather fast ?


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

If I'm making a tea, I'm introducing something new like enzymes, hormones and secondary metabolites. It's not like we're saying teas are bad. 

There isn't a single thing that comes from AACT that I can't get by simply topdressing with the same compost. Speed of delivery is the only difference. So you could use ACT for 100% of your waterings. Apply it daily. No one said that would hurt the plants. Me- I'll just add that same compost and get the same nutrient payload and save the hassle.

Grass City is simply another stoner forum. I would expect every stoner forum to talk about AACT, as well as many other grow techniques unique to Weedville. If AACT was great in and of itself, then commercial growers would use it for produce and ornamental plants... and they don't. Is this because the world horticulture industry is behind the times? No. Why has AACT never been discussed at the global plant shows? Where is all the peer-reviewed data that shows AACT brings something truly unique to the table? There is none after all these years. Google it and see. See how many scientific papers you find on the topic. 

Why? Because top dressing with compost gives you the same long-term payload delivery. AACT does not create any nutrients that were not already in the compost.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 20, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> I was actually thinking the title should be changed.
> 
> Soil food web: gardening with microbes
> 
> ...


Read thru the OP again and tell me why should the name change? Where you at Trichome Fiend?! Show yourself haha!

And if you've got Teaming With Microbes on hand look thru it and get all the answers you want.

But you only add a small amount of molasses to the AACTs to feed the multiplying bennies and they multiply faster bcuz of this.
Your AACTs will smell earthy if you used the right ratios of everything and WILL NOT start to smell. Anaerobic OP dead microbes stink. Not aerobic living microbes. Your keep the AACTs aerobic by oxygenating the water and adding a dash of molasses.
even when you use liquid fish in a tea, the earth smell over takes the fishy odor.

And I amended my soil before I mixed it so that there would be enough food to go around. And microbes die and or go dormant all that time. They're microbes. There's billions of billions of them beneath our plants, yet adding to that ecosystem somehow is unnecessary?


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> And I amended my soil before I mixed it so that there would be enough food to go around. And microbes die and or go dormant all that time. They're microbes. There's billions of billions of them beneath our plants, yet adding to that ecosystem somehow is unnecessary?


Exactly. There are trillions of microbes, and if there's a viable plant root system in there, the microbes will be very busy multiplying and doing their job. The microherd will quickly develop into the population the plant wants. Adding microbes to the ecosystem is unnecessary.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 20, 2013)

Rrog said:


> If I'm making a tea, I'm introducing something new like enzymes, hormones and secondary metabolites. It's not like we're saying teas are bad.
> 
> There isn't a single thing that comes from AACT that I can't get by simply topdressing with the same compost. Speed of delivery is the only difference. So you could use ACT for 100% of your waterings. Apply it daily. No one said that would hurt the plants. Me- I'll just add that same compost and get the same nutrient payload and save the hassle.
> 
> ...


Yo...tell it ALL to MicrobeMan.
And tell me why you would ever topdress when an AACT works immediately? What's the point?
i top dressed every 2-3w just because. This with all my AACT use. 
And did I say that you'd stated AACTs hurt the plants? I don't think so. Already I shouldn't have.

You keep saying only pot farmers use AACTs...do I need to provide you with some links so that you stop repeating that same shit?
Because that's a bold face lie.

I can't reply anymore to you lol it's pointless man. It that same old shit...just a different way.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 20, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Exactly. There are trillions of microbes, and if there's a viable plant root system in there, the microbes will be very busy multiplying and doing their job. The microherd will quickly develop into the population the plant wants. Adding microbes to the ecosystem is unnecessary.


Microbes don't multiply in soil as fas as they do in water buddy.
Bacteria don't move around in soil very well and fungal strands grow but don't even come close to the amount of bacteria abound. And who said trillions of microbes are adequate and that trillions of microbes turn into more trillions of microbes in the soil alone??


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

Sincerely420, as you've said, all of this has been discussed already. Nothing new to offer, as this just isn't that complex. Good luck with your brewing. This is clearly agitating you, and this is a mellow forum. 

- Peace


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

So... who here has a worm bin? I have a worm "bag" (Geopot) and have amended so far with kelp, biochar, cram shell, Neem. Feeding the worms Bokashi. 

The volume and quality goes up daily. Everyone should make their own compost. Free / cheap and better than anything you can buy.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Okay I'll put it this way. 

AACT is like pouring gasoline on a fire. It gives a WHOLE lot of energy all at once. 

Regular applications of compost and organic matter is like putting a thick, hardwood log onto the fire. Slow burning, steady heat for hours and hours. 

Some people like a gas fire, but they sure as hell have to keep putting in on, otherwise the fire dies quickly. 

But I like the idea, of a slow burning, continuous energy soarce. (top dressing, cover crops)


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 20, 2013)

Yeahh bro! It clearly agitates me how non-chalanty you say shit like it's fact when it's not, but I'm not sweating about it.
I just don't want everyone who comes across this thread to be turned of by what you saying becuase I know that If I didn't know the things that I did, and do the things that I do, and saw some of the things that you said, Id be confused as hell by the time I made it here from the OP.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 20, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Okay I'll put it this way.
> 
> AACT is like pouring gasoline on a fire. It gives a WHOLE lot of energy all at once.
> 
> ...


"Not all of that energy is used right away right?! So how is it adding fuel to fire?


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

Sincerely420- I think you'd enjoy reading Teaming With Microbes. Vermiculture Technology by Clive Edwards, et al is another amazing read.


----------



## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Yo...tell it ALL to MicrobeMan.
> And tell me why you would ever topdress when an AACT works immediately? What's the point?


To BUILD soil organic matter. 

You can use AACT every day for years and never build anything. 

When you spray teas on a soiless medium what happens to the medium, nothing really. 

When you top dress compost on a soiless medium what happens, the compost becomes a part of the medium.

The difference is building something (organic matter) vs. feeding something. (AACT)


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 20, 2013)

Ohh I've got it boss. And I've shared it with like 10 ppl here...Along with like 30+ other cannabis related books, documents, spreadsheets and slideshows.
Sound like you would enjoy reading that again based on what you telling me about AACTs


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 20, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> To BUILD soil organic matter.
> 
> You can use AACT every day for years and never build anything.
> 
> ...


What kind of AACT can you use for years and never build anything?
I'm growing in soil. Not soilless.

And AACTs are meant to feel the plant indirectly. I don't apply them for nutrional value, other than N when I use the Neptunes Harvest. My goal is to add as many bennies as I can. The plant will pick and choose with it's exudates. Having too much life in your soil..is that possible?

GOOD QUESTIONS! Thanks haha maybe I'm getting somewhere


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

I have a 4 year degree in Biochem. I've read TWM twice. I think I'm OK here. 

You are not understanding soil biology. If you'd like to discuss what's happening, that's what this forum is for. You are asserting non-science. Sorry to have to say this. There's a block in your logic that you are defending.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 20, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I have a 4 year degree in Biochem. I've read TWM twice. I think I'm OK here.
> 
> You are not understanding soil biology. If you'd like to discuss what's happening, that's what this forum is for. You are asserting non-science. Sorry to have to say this. There's a block in your logic that you are defending.


Just block me and keep it moving.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Taken from New Organic Grower by Elliot Coleman:

"there are a number of "natural"'products on the market (liquid seaweed or fish emulsion are examples) that claim to offer plant stimulation without producing an imbalance. These products appeal to our human inclination to look for the "magic bullet", a secret potion that will make everything work better. In my opinion these products have mostly a phychological benefit. They make the grower feel more secure because something has been done whether it was necessary or not. Unquestionably, they can be helpful at times when things go wrong despite your best efforts. But I encourage you to use them as an occasional tool, not as a continual crutch. In most cases, a grower would be better off spending that money to build up long-term soil fertility. "


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

Rising Moon, you have a worm bin, no?


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 20, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Taken from New Organic Grower by Elliot Coleman:
> 
> "there are a number of "natural"'products on the market (liquid seaweed or fish emulsion are examples) that claim to offer plant stimulation without producing an imbalance. These products appeal to our human inclination to look for the "magic bullet", a secret potion that will make everything work better. In my opinion these products have mostly a phychological benefit. They make the grower feel more secure because something has been done whether it was necessary or not. Unquestionably, they can be helpful at times when things go wrong despite your best efforts. But I encourage you to use them as an occasional tool, not as a continual crutch. In most cases, a grower would be better off spending that money to build up long-term soil fertility. "


But I use such a small amount of all these things....I don't feel like the Neptunes Harvest Liquid Fish is a magic bullet. I use 1/2tsp per gallon in my AACTs. And not for the N. For it's b/a brewing properties. I don't use kelp me for it's nutritonal value I use it for all of it's other values..
The Bat Guano(indonesion)...it packs a more than justP..
The molasses isn't used for it's potassium....It's used to feed b/a as they mulitply


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

Interesting thing (to me) is that microbes involved in the composting process generally break down many complex molecules like antibiotics and pesticides. Some have a concern about using animal manure because of the antibiotics (I did) but later find out that is not necessarily a valid concern.

Reminds me of Paul Stamets and his work detoxifying hazardous sites with fungi.

Some things I'm considering for VermiCompost amending:

Alfalfa 
Kelp Meal 
Neem Meal 
Karanja meal 
Manure or compost	
Comfrey 
Yarrow 
Horsetail Ferns	
Stinging Nettles	
Fish Meal 
Fish Bone Meal	
Flaxseed Meal 
Rock Dusts
- Glacial Rock	
- Bentonite	
- Oyster Shell	
- Basalt 
Agsil 16 
Crab Meal powder	
Clay Powders ** 

** Montmorillonite and Pyrophyllite

If anyone's interested in some newer research check out research done by Dr. Yasmine Cardoza One of her research projects released about a year ago proved, conclusively, that besides disease suppression that vermicompost provides high levels of insect suppression as well. The benefits extend from the soil to the Phyllosphere. That surprised a lot of folks and many previously resisted this notion. 

Vermicompost is what we each of us should be looking at doing locally


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Rrog, yes on the worm bin! 5 years and counting...

CLAYS!!!

I was going to start a whole tread, "montmorillonite/bentonite clay, why you should get to know them"

Possibly one of the biggest contributers to the formation of humus. 

So funny you bring it up Rrog, as I am headed to the health food store to pick some up today!


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

Clay is such a big deal! Your local store stocks these clays???


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Elliot Coleman is a big believer in clays for long term soil fertility as well. 

Ever seen inside his greenhouses?

Oh MY GOD!!! 

Absolute closed loop perfection!


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Yeah, I've got a great local herb/tea shop. Everything in bulk!

All the great teas herbs as well, certified organic and good prices. 

3 types of powdered clays.


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

I have not, but am grateful for the lead.

What do they sell these clays for? Soil amendment?


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Face masks for skin health.


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## Redbird1223 (Feb 20, 2013)

would good old Arizona clay/dirt work as well? I always have a little wash into my mix when I grow outdoors, and I heard a small amount is good for biology.

what are these hormone/enzyme teas you're talking about? what do they do? is it noticeable? /necessary?


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## c ray (Feb 20, 2013)

I recently made a batch of CMC compost containing 5% of 2 types of locally mined high Si clay, in 400 gallon smart pots, shovelling back and forth between 2 of the 400 gallon smart pots every day or two for 3 weeks then a month or so to rest.. was made with 3 bales peat, 3 bags organic alfalfa pellets, micronized soft rock phosphate (from idaho), humalite superfine powder, high-Ca lime, gypsum, trace sulfate based minerals and hydrated with 50 gallons water + a gallon or so AEM and a 1/2 lb biozome, plus some biodynamic preps.. I mix it 1 part compost to 6 parts pro-mix hp on the average plant, more or less depending on their needs..

so far so good, I am curious how much compost tea do I really need to add to a soilless mix that has it's fertility based on compost? do I really need to keep adding CT or is adding microbial foods to the plants just the same since the root zone is aerobic and fully alive? out of curiousity I put 1 cup of the compost-pro-mix hp blend in a cup of distilled water and measured the ppm and it was around 4x higher compared to the uncomposted ingredients in the same test


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

Redbird-

local powdered clay would seem to be OK. Clay powder is what we're looking at. I've heard of trouble adding lumpy clay.

*Teas:

Barley Seed Sprout Tea
Misc. Seed Sprout Tea
Corn Seed Tea*

2 tablespoons of seeds (1 oz.) Soak for 12 hours. Drain that water and throw away. It&#8217;s full of growth inhibitors. Add 1/2 gallon of water to the sprouts for the 48 hour soak. Strain and use 1 cup of this to 1 gallon of water. use as a foliar or soil drench. 

*Alfalfa, Nettle, Dandelion, Comfrey Teas:*

Take a handful of any of these greens and add to a little bucket of water. Have a little bubbler there to keep aerobic. After 36 hours, drain off the water and use as a foliar or soil drench. 

*Coconut water:*

Plain-ol coconut water diluted 1:15. use as a foliar or soil drench. 
*
Aloe Tea:*

Use fresh Aloe Leaf and squeeze out about 2 tablespoons of Aloe Gel to 1 gallon of water. Use as a foliar or soil drench. These techniques extract delicate, short-lived molecules that do powerful things for our plants. Many of these Secondary Metabolites, plant enzymes and hormones degrade very quickly, so these teas cannot be purchased and must be used quickly. These molecules trigger plant growth and vigor. They stimulate the plant's natural immune response system. Etc, etc. Amazing.

The results are instantly noticeable. Try some!


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 20, 2013)

Redbird1223 said:


> would good old Arizona clay/dirt work as well? I always have a little wash into my mix when I grow outdoors, and I heard a small amount is good for biology.
> 
> what are these hormone/enzyme teas you're talking about? what do they do? is it noticeable? /necessary?



Headtreep in the AZ section starting doing them using mung beans he bought in the organic section at Fry's ( AZ grocery store chain ) .. Shoot him a PM.. I'm going to start using them soon too. I started using the aloe tea.


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## Redbird1223 (Feb 20, 2013)

sweet, I'll give em a try. thanks! would these be better in veg or can they be used anytime?

I try not to spray my plants with anything after stretch


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

You can use these in flower, just avoid foliars. Also maybe avoid Alfalfa, Comfrey and other high-N sources in flower.


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## Redbird1223 (Feb 20, 2013)

after watching Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead....I've been juicing like a madman again.

anyone ever use juice for their plants? or make alfalfa juice lol


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 20, 2013)

Redbird1223 said:


> sweet, I'll give em a try. thanks! would these be better in veg or can they be used anytime?
> 
> I try not to spray my plants with anything after stretch


Same here I stop spraying after the 2nd week.


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

Well, the teas are essentially an extraction, so that's a juice. So there ya go!


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 20, 2013)

Redbird1223 said:


> after watching Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead....I've been juicing like a madman again.
> 
> anyone ever use juice for their plants? or make alfalfa juice lol



I know dude I'm 30 soon to be 31 and need to really start making a life style change......I dont make Alfalfa tea but I think I get all my barley nutrients from Miller Lite lol...


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

You guys just need to pick up a really good veggie seed catalog. 

Try and look through those things without wanting to grow everything!!!

After growing your own veggies, everything else sucks, and won't taste as good. 

Gardening was the Thing that made me change my diet, so hard to resist all the beauty you can grow and eat!


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## Redbird1223 (Feb 20, 2013)

gardening is a bitch in the blistering desert haha but i'm a sore loser


agreed about the seed catalogs.


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

BeaverHuntr said:


> I know dude I'm 30 soon to be 31 and need to really start making a life style change...


I'm 50, almost 51 and plan to make a change any day now... LOL!!!


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 20, 2013)

Redbird1223 said:


> gardening is a bitch in the blistering desert haha but i'm a sore loser
> 
> 
> agreed about the seed catalogs.



True that!!! It sucks doing anything outside here in Phoenix from June - October


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Never too late!

I was a fat ass all through high school, now all these years later, I have my shit together, and run into people of old, they always comment about how much better I look. 

All it takes is brown rice and veggies + a reconnection to the earth human symbiot via psychedelic mushrooms...

depending on who Im talking to I may or may not leave out that last part. Lol.


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

Shrooms are next on my list...


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Actually, my buddy and I were reading about Reshi mushrooms and all the amazing things they contain, and my friend said
"we should try foliage feeding a Reshi tea!"

Interesting idea to say the least...


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Ecology nerds unite!

After many, many lessons on the Earth from my humble teacher the mushroom,

I was dumbstruck by the writings of Steiner on nature, agriculture and nature entities. 

He must have had a similar teaching, but with the background to put it all together into a paradigm shifting, culture shattering format. 

For anyone interested in how the cosmic/earth/plant/human symbiot is possible, look no further than Steiner himself.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Rrog, clean out your inbox buddy!

It won't let me reply back cause you can't store any more PMs. Lol.


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

All cleaned out! Whew


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 20, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Shrooms are next on my list...



A group of friends and I hiked Havasupai Falls on shrooms.. I considered it a life changing experience especially when we dove in the crystal clear blue water from the falls. I don't know if you guys are into hiking but we all sound like some nature loving folks and if you are close to AZ or ever travel to go hiking I highly suggest you look into Havasupai falls.. It's only a 10 mile hike but once you get to camp you can stay over night and hike to the other water falls, it's just a beautiful experience.


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

What a great idea. Great pic.


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## Redbird1223 (Feb 20, 2013)

OH SHIT tell me more! I'm so sick of going to payson just to stay in a hotel


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 20, 2013)

Redbird1223 said:


> OH SHIT tell me more! I'm so sick of going to payson just to stay in a hotel


It's a fun hike dude. YOu have to pay money to the Havasupai Indian Tribe when you get closer to the camps its pretty cheap though. My buddy set up our hike nice. He basically had the mules haul all our tents, cooking supplies, etc all we had to take was our camel backs ( the water carrying back packs ) The hike starts and its a good 9 mile hike but around mile 7 the Indian tribe has a little village set up with a school , grocery store and lunch hall where you can rest and buy some Gatorade and what not. You can also take a helicopter or mules down too if you aren't so adventurous. You can also haul all your own shit down yourself but I recommend the mules if you are bringing a tent and cook ware. The best time to hike there is probably April - late May.. June its probably too hot and after June you have the monsoon season here in AZ. Havasupai was closed down for a few years because one of the monsoon seasons messed everything up. Its a really fun hike you just have to hide your booze. We were even offered some good times in a sweat lodge for some of our greenery but we passed on it. The hike up is a bitch because of the switchback to get to the top.. I literally had to stop every 20 min because my thighs were burning so bad from the steep incline.


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## Cann (Feb 20, 2013)

wow...glad this thread has turned peaceful after the last few pages LOL 

thank you for being patient Rrog...I have problems sometimes....certain people....


also, did c-ray just make his 1st post here.......tell me I am having a bad dream....lmao

oh no.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Thought I would share some info I found for our microbe friends: CLAYS

http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/learn/bentonite.php

http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/learn/french-green-clay.php

http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/learn/fullers.php

http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/learn/rhassoul.php

Check out the Silica/Calcium content on these!

(these are some of the ones I picked up today Rrog)


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

hey Cann- How's your day going? It's funny- I'd expect to meet with resistance if I were selling expensive stuff and telling people they needed it. It's just the opposite, however.

EDIT- Hey Moon- thanks for the links!


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## Cann (Feb 20, 2013)

day is going well...bout to smoke a bit and then head into the garden...gotta take some clones etc. 

i found the resistance pretty surprising as well...seems people are real stuck in their ways. check out the last few pages of the veganics thread for a laugh...i had to leave after a point cause it was getting too absurd. hard to keep a mellow attitude...

glad you are still hanging around keeping the peace here...how those notes coming? I'm starting to get mine a bit more organized (all in 1 word document..LOL). one day...one day. 

beans from swami kushendez on the way...dropped him some $$ for the goodies - 
_
NL#5 x Neville's Haze F3's_

_TO x BMR Bx1_

_Blue Orca x NL/haze


_excited to say the least...especially after the pictures he's been posting...god damn haha


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## Redbird1223 (Feb 20, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Thought I would share some info I found for our microbe friends: CLAYS
> 
> http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/learn/bentonite.php
> 
> ...




Alright, ready?
how much would a person add to 10-12 cu. ft. of soil? how do they sell it/how much to order? 
is one as good as the next, or would it be better to combine all for their individual properties?
seems like this would be perfect for those who make meds into lotions


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

Cann- that all sounds great! I can't wait to get growing again. I grow just for me.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Redbird1223 said:


> Alright, ready?
> how much would a person add to 10-12 cu. ft. of soil? how do they sell it/how much to order?
> is one as good as the next, or would it be better to combine all for their individual properties?
> seems like this would be perfect for those who make meds into lotions


I think the key is moderation in the case of clays, and I would for sure mix them all up, because some have high Ca, or other micros and some not etc.

I just added some to my worm bin today, just a sprinkle, but I will keep adding it every time I feed.

They sell it by the pound, its cheap too, like 5-10 bucks.

For using in pots, I would mix it in small layers... like dust a little, and add more soil, dust a little more ect. ect.

It can also be sprayed to protect leaves from insects/diseases, forming a mineral barrier,

Im pretty excited about this!

Silica is also a very strong cosmic mediator.


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## Cann (Feb 20, 2013)

anyone have studies or literature on the clay/rock dust in regards to benefits to the phyllosphere? just curious what is out there...i know some of y'all got links


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Cann - In regards to being sprayed on the plant surface?


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

Soil application benefits from quick wiki search:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentonite#In_Thai_farming


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## Cann (Feb 20, 2013)

yeah, for foliar applications. I have heard a few things about clays or rock dusts in regards to phyllosphere health..but never read anything scientific or conclusive. very curious...


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Feb 20, 2013)

This has been bugging me for the pass hours, can't firgure out what kind of insects these are. Any idea's?




Also I've been working a batch of recycled soil for the pass month, at a slowly but surely pace. Today while I was mixing the pile I noticed something no organic gardener wants to see in their soil, _osmocote. _

I realized some plants I got from the nursery must've had this "fertilizer" in them, and now I'm kicking myself for not remembering that when I was throwing various rootballs plants I got from the nursery into this batch. It's been breaking down for about 6 weeks now, I only noticed about several osmocote pellets every 1-3 cubic foot though. What should I do?
This soil is for my veggie beds by the way.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 20, 2013)

I know all the BD farmers spray a quartz based preparation with extremely positive results.


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

I'd ride it out and go naked from here on out.


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## NickNasty (Feb 20, 2013)

How much clay do you guys add to your mix


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2013)

Base Soil

1/3 Sphagnum Peat from Premier Peat or Alaska Peat
1/3 Aeration material (pumice)
1/3 EWC

Per Cubic Foot of the Base Soil (1 cubic foot = 7.5 gallons)

3 cup Charcoal (activated)
4 cups Rock Powders (4X Glacial, 1X Bentonite, 1X Oyster Shell, 1X Basalt)

½ Cup Neem Meal (2 g / L)
1 Cup Crab Shell Meal
2 Cups Kelp Meal 
2 Cups Fish Meal
2 Cups Fish Bone Meal
1 Cup Sul-Po-Mag
½ Cup Alfalfa

1.5 Cups Montmorillonite clay
1.5 Cups Pyrophyllite Clay

1/2 cup this 3 part lime mix 

1 part powdered dolomite lime
1 part agricultural gypsum
2 parts powdered oyster shell

Moisten with Fresh Aloe (2 Tbs Juice with 1 gallon water) and Accelerant Tea (Comfrey, Yarrow, Horsetail or Nettle) 

I pre-inoculate with BTI and Nematodes. 

Let this rest for 4-5 weeks.


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## scugg (Feb 20, 2013)

Cann said:


> day is going well...bout to smoke a bit and then head into the garden...gotta take some clones etc.
> 
> i found the resistance pretty surprising as well...seems people are real stuck in their ways. check out the last few pages of the veganics thread for a laugh...i had to leave after a point cause it was getting too absurd. hard to keep a mellow attitude...
> 
> ...


Dude...that's huge. I've been drooling over his pics for months. I don't say much over there, but always wondered how someone could acquire those fuckin awesome genetics. I'd really love some of those for sure. That's just fuckin great to say the least. Green with envy!!!


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## scugg (Feb 20, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Base Soil
> 
> 1/3 Sphagnum Peat from Premier Peat or Alaska Peat
> 1/3 Aeration material (pumice)
> ...


How do you measure out your cubic feet when you mix your soil? 5 gallon buckets? Only easy way I've done it so far. You and Cootz use the wet measurement for cubic feet to gallons I believe? The dry is about a gallon smaller I think, but I think I'm really just pulling straws at this point. Just wondering...


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## Cann (Feb 20, 2013)

I use dry measurement (6gal = 1cuft roughly)...and I thought cootz did the same. maybe I am mistaken. and yeah, those swami genetics have had me drooling since day one...and after a weekend at the cannabis cup being barraged by seed vendors of questionable value, I knew I had to save my $$$ and invest it in some quality. plus its a way of saying thank you for all of the great things these gentlemen have done for the me, as well as all the folks interested in true cannabis horticulture, not myth based stoner science...

Rrog - jesus! you have that soil recipe down sir. _"I pre-inoculate with BTI and Nematodes" _- what nematodes and BTI source do you use? curious as usual. and how much does it cost for a bag of clay (either mont/pyro) at a clay supply place? got a few locally...might swing by if the price is right.

also, did you mean let the soil rest for 8 weeks...or was that a double type on accident? also what about the ACT to get things started??? isn't that what MM does????? you know i'm just giving you a hard time.... 


​


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## Rrog (Feb 21, 2013)

Ha! Morning Cann- It's "Cann in the morning" with coffee. Just 4 weeks total. That was a dupe typo. And so everyone understands I did not create this recipe. Gascanastan and Coot are the geniuses.

http://www.naturescontrol.com/predatornematodes.html nematodes.

http://www.amazon.com/Summit-111-5-Mosquito-Dunks-20-Pack/dp/B0002568YA BTI Dunks

Not sure on the clay. Rising Moon just turned me on to a local source so I'm checking it out.

1 Cubic Foot - 7.5 Liquid US Gallons, or 6.6 Dry US Gallons. I use Liquid gallons since that's what is most common, and buckets are based on Liquid Gallons. What a horseshit system the US has...


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## scugg (Feb 21, 2013)

And we're the only ones who use the Dewey decimal system. Works fine...until you realize how easy the metric system is to use...


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## c ray (Feb 21, 2013)

Cann said:


> anyone have studies or literature on the clay/rock dust in regards to benefits to the phyllosphere? just curious what is out there...i know some of y'all got links


here ya go / e-mail these guys if you want the actual literature, they will hook you up

http://www.minerall.com/reference_manuals_indexes.html#fungicide_insect_protectorant


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## Cann (Feb 21, 2013)

Cann in the morning..lol just woke up  long night in the grow room. Thanks for that mosquito dunk link...nice prices!! Beats the hell out of my local home depot...or the hydro store LOL where 2 mosquito dunks are $8....

God I hate our measuring system...my soil must be a bit off cause of the 6 gallon measurement..but whatever. Wish I could use metric for everything....

tried to find some studies from that link...*

Fungicide and Clay Treatments for Control of Powdery Mildew Influence Wine Grape Microflora
*Peter Sholberg, Coleen Harlton, Julie Boule, Paula Haag

From the Abstract:_ "The clay treatment had no detectable effect on grape micro-flora because no significant differences were recorded between clay or untreated grape berries or leaves on any of the sampling dates"
_
maybe I need to read some more...


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Feb 21, 2013)

So your never used this recipe and your recommending it? I dont understand your reasoning, unless its :"everything cc says is good for my plants" I bet if he told you to poop in your pots youd come on here and reccommend it to everyone. Just Giving you a "hard time" because it says "I pre inculcate with BTI and nematodes".


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## Cann (Feb 21, 2013)

I think you're confusing me with Rrog...


EDIT: also, what did CC do to you to make you so bitter lol...


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Feb 21, 2013)

Sorry Cann that was directed at Rrog, actually pretty much all this is.

I just got frazzled when I seen a post in the veganic section saying this guy is using all the methods you guys preach about, when you guys haven't even really used these techniques(Rrog), or even grow pot(Rrog)! CC is a great guy, nothing against him at all. I'm just wondering why you two come on here preaching to the choir when you haven't even done half the shit you suggest! Almost like your trying to gain recognition here for his research. Here you might be considered "Organic Guru's" but at ICmag your just noobs with a bunch of questions, and you copy and paste that crap here. Then you come over here and squawk about it and act all superior to every other organic Gardner on here. I've already noticed a great change in your posts(Cann) since I told you to wise up in the veganic secton, even Rising Moon posts have improved in attitude, so I don't think i'm a bad guy for telling you straight! As long as you guys aren't assholes to every organic guy on RIU(besides the ones who accept your viewpoint on growing) anymore, sure; i'll seem like a jackass in a couple posts. You haven't talked down to anyone since then and I appreciate that. But shit that you guys have been posting "laughing" at every other organic gardners way is ridiculous. I said this before and i'll say it again Their is no right or wrong way, just the organic way. If your growing organic your growing the right way, with out chemicals; healing the earth. One person at a time! Only reason I posted this is because of your punk little edit comment, otherwise I would've ignored it like I usually do, but enough was enough. Glad your attitude in posts has changed(i'll take credit for that! thank you!). Again Cann, thank you for putting your activist side away the pass couple days, but now you need to grow up.
Peace!

Cann get on your knee's. kiss-ass
Rrog should be online soon to defend you. This should be fun


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## Rrog (Feb 21, 2013)

I've used 95% of this soil recipe for growing weed. You've seen the evolution of this recipe on IC yourself. I have always said I am just a messenger

You will see my signature for the continuous credit for my posts. I sell and gain nothing when I post.

When I have issue with a grower, I think you'll find it is either over scientific accuracy or the in-expense of this grow method vs. the expense of buying bottles. If you find some inaccuracy, please be sure and tell me.


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## Rising Moon (Feb 21, 2013)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> Sorry Cann that was directed at Rrog, actually pretty much all this is.
> 
> I just got frazzled when I seen a post in the veganic section saying this guy is using all the methods you guys preach about, when you guys haven't even really used these techniques(Rrog), or even grow pot(Rrog)! CC is a great guy, nothing against him at all. I'm just wondering why you two come on here preaching to the choir when you haven't even done half the shit you suggest! Almost like your trying to gain recognition here for his research. Here you might be considered "Organic Guru's" but at ICmag your just noobs with a bunch of questions, and you copy and paste that crap here. Then you come over here and squawk about it and act all superior to every other organic Gardner on here. I've already noticed a great change in your posts(Cann) since I told you to wise up in the veganic secton, even Rising Moon posts have improved in attitude, so I don't think i'm a bad guy for telling you straight! As long as you guys aren't assholes to every organic guy on RIU(besides the ones who accept your viewpoint on growing) anymore, sure; i'll seem like a jackass in a couple posts. You haven't talked down to anyone since then and I appreciate that. But shit that you guys have been posting "laughing" at every other organic gardners way is ridiculous. I said this before and i'll say it again Their is no right or wrong way, just the organic way. If your growing organic your growing the right way, with out chemicals; healing the earth. One person at a time! Only reason I posted this is because of your punk little edit comment, otherwise I would've ignored it like I usually do, but enough was enough. Glad your attitude in posts has changed(i'll take credit for that! thank you!). Again Cann, thank you for putting your activist side away the pass couple days, but now you need to grow up.
> Peace!
> ...



Lol, I guess I was too medicated to realize you were talking to us in the veganic thread... No need to serve me humble pie, I've been doing my thing for years and will continue...

Come check out my garden anytime. I'll feed you all the food I grow, from seeds I saved. And I'll smoke you down with some herb I pollen chucked and grew with my "holier than thow" sorry I'm a passionate earth geek soil mix.

Speak for yourself. And chill out everyone.


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## Rrog (Feb 22, 2013)

I just ordered some Agsil 16. Bioavailable Silica. http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/blog/2010/06/silica-the-hidden-cost-of-chemicals/ Nice little article on Silica. I'm hoping some folks appreciate the information. Maybe no one wants to hear any of this any longer. Feel free to let me know.


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## Cann (Feb 22, 2013)

is the agsil back in stock on that link you supplied a while back? hmmm...

spliff...lets agree to disagree. there is no "one way" with organics, but people trying to be "veganic" just bugs me...always has and always will. it's a matter of terminology more than anything...

I like what rising moon said. We're passionate folks...at least I am. The type of person to get run out of a hydro store for asking too many questions. If I believe something is right, I am going to stand up for it and explain to others why I feel that way. Same if I feel something is wrong. My eyes have been opened in the last few months, and I am happy to share that information with others. I am by no means preaching methods I have not used...come check out the garden if you think any differently. Guess I need to start a new grow journal. The fact that we might be considered "gurus" over here and noobs on IC tells you something about the status of RIU right now...we are just trying to spread the good word to those who are missing out. 


lets set all the beef aside and continue to be productive..we are all trying to help here, some of us have more patience than others LOL. that being said, spliff - we don't need a referee. the tone of your posts lately has been very maternal..and don't think that you have changed our ways with your magical posts haha...take credit for what??? the fact that I havent posted in a day or two? nothing to do with you buddy...


so who has tried a coconut h2o foliar?


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## Rrog (Feb 22, 2013)

The Agsil was back in stock earlier this week. I learned about the coconut water after my last round was already in flower. So I haven't tried it. Everyone who has, and many have posted pics, really rave about the near-instant results. 

Cann- How'd you make out with that snip of Aloe?


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## HiloReign (Feb 22, 2013)

For the sake of asking, when would I apply this coconut foliar? I understand it needs to be properly diluted (15:1 I believe)? Thank you, gentlemen.


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## Cann (Feb 22, 2013)

Not sure what aloe you are referring to as I am often snipping bits and pieces and bringing them home...but right now I have a few filets in the fridge, and then when I need some aloe I'll trim off the spines and throw the whole leaf in a blender. 2tbs/gal (sometimes more if I'm feelin it...) and the ladies are loving it. also sometimes I just use a spoon to scoop out the filets and throw the leftovers in the compost/bokashi/worm bin (wherever I feel it is needed). 

Also, I recently got 28grams of Purealoe powder - so I've been experimenting with that as well. Difficult to measure in small amounts...I need to get a scale that is more accurate...

I've been getting great results from the coconut h2o 1:15 in my waterings, but haven't tried a foliar yet. I'm sure it will have a profound positive effect - a few weeks ago after watering with coconut h2o, protekt, aloe, and ful-power, one of my ladies had leaves that were vertical. Straight vertical. It actually scared me for a bit and I was worried I f***ed something up, but turns out she was just super happy  _"Enzymes"_ and in this case hormones I believe...cytokinins? if I remember correctly...


EDIT: Hilo - I would apply it at lights-on or at lights-off. lights on if you have issues with PM - if humidity isn't a concern I would spray at lights off. Honestly, you can probably spray whenever as it shouldn't burn (unless you have crazy intense lights) and there is no concern as to keeping the leaves wet (not trying to establish any microorganisms in the phyllosphere). I spray most of my foliars at random times of day - the only ones that I worry about timing are neem/protekt (lights off spray) and nematodes (lights off as well - have to keep the leaves wet for x amount of time so they can establish themselves) Hope this helps..I know its pretty damn vague lol


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## HiloReign (Feb 22, 2013)

Definitely of help, friend. I just wanted to make it easier for anyone whom may be reading along (and myself, of course). Applied coconut water/aloe (fresh) in a foliar manner before lights out last night and this morning there are some great results.


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## Cann (Feb 22, 2013)

you should post pics if you got em  i've been lazy with the camera lately...need to get batteries. 

are the plants praying? cause thats what I always get with aloe


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## Redbird1223 (Feb 22, 2013)

any coconut juice? where would I find this?


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## Cann (Feb 22, 2013)

young coconut water - the stuff that comes in cans at a health food store - or you can potentially find a young coconut at an asian or mexican market. I can get 12 cans for $18 bucks at my local health food place...not bad

what you don't want is coconut milk - the thick white stuff used for cooking etc. you want the clear liquid before it adheres to the shell and becomes coconut meat...hence "young" coconut. 

great stuff both for humans and plants


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## Rrog (Feb 22, 2013)

If coconut water of this type isn't available, you can get a similar kick with corn seed tea.


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## HiloReign (Feb 22, 2013)

View attachment 2537097
When I turned the lights on, unfortunately I don't have a "before" picture... Mind you she's under 28w.

A before and after would be cool, I need to gather ingredients around the neighborhood and I can make that happen later today.


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## Rrog (Feb 22, 2013)

You're doing great Hilo. You're going to love this more and more as you see what you can accomplish


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## BeaverHuntr (Feb 22, 2013)

Redbird1223 said:


> any coconut juice? where would I find this?



Frys market place dude in the organic section for us AZ folk.. I bought a aloe plant at a nursery for 7 bucks the other day..


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## Rrog (Feb 22, 2013)

Please let us know how you like that Aloe Beav.


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## Cann (Feb 22, 2013)

you're going to chop that aloe to shit in a few weeks...just throwing that out there LOL. I would have to be cultivating a LOT of aloe to provide the amount I use..and my garden isn't even that big. I find I have to use bottled aloe, powdered aloe, or do a lot of hunting for fresh aloe in the area (one of the few good things about the desert). just know that if you are planning on growing your own aloe you are going to need more than one plant  unless that plant is a tree...

Hilo - those plants look beautiful, they are obviously happy about that foliar. is that a 28w fluorescent?


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## HiloReign (Feb 22, 2013)

That's 28w of good quality LED.

I have a few aloe plants around my house, I do my best not to massacre them lol...


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## Rising Moon (Feb 22, 2013)

I accidentally left a HUGE aloe plant at my cabin over the winter once...

I came back to find a pile of black slime...

Ill never do that again, I felt terrible for the poor thing and lost an old plant..


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## Rrog (Feb 22, 2013)

Hilo, that's cool about the LED. I'm building a LED panel as we speak.


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## HiloReign (Feb 22, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Hilo, that's cool about the LED. I'm building a LED panel as we speak.


I've skimmed through your thread on ICMag, I don't have an account there though. It sounds like a great project!


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## Rrog (Feb 22, 2013)

We'll see. I'm excited about it.


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## enoeht (Feb 23, 2013)

I have 3 gallon pots, should I soil drench every time I use aact's


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## Cann (Feb 24, 2013)

.....read the thread from the beginning and it will answer your question. I don't even know what you are asking necessarily

What do you consider a soil drench? Do you use ACT every time you water? If not, how often do you use ACT? Are your plants in smartpots or regular pots?

we need more info to help you


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## Redbird1223 (Feb 24, 2013)

soil mixers, I need some help.

I re-use my soil by recharging with amendments, but I usually just "wing it".

I wanted to try and measure a little more closely this time, but I bought more than I usually use, and I'm unsure how much of what to add.

I have:
roughly 9 cu. ft. of used roots organics soil w/biochar
.75 cu. ft. Worm Gold Plus EWC
2 cu. ft. perlite
Growmore alfalfa meal 2-0-0
Dr. Earth kelp meal 1-0.5-2 (with probiotics)
Dr. Earth fish bone meal 3-18-0 (with probiotics)
The Guano Co. budswel 0-7-0
Whitney Farms greensand 0-0-3
Whitney Farms prilled dolomite lime
azomite
4 oz. powdered humic acid
2 packs Mycos for transplant

also
homemade compost
chicken litter/feathers
rice/oats
2 bags of fresh roots that I'll use while my mix cooks
on a side note, when I got home and was checking everything out, reading labels, etc. I noticed everything I bought today (soil, amendments, containers) was AMERICAN MADE! except the alfalfa which I actually had already from my last trip to the store. I understand many of these bottled nutes come from other countries, and they have to carry the lines to be competitive.....but major kudos for sourcing all of their non-bottled items from home @Sea of Green - Tempe, AZ

So, any suggestions? I have added too much N in the past and really F'ed up my flower stage, so I tend to make more of a "flower mix" because I usually flip around 18-24 inches tall
Thanks for your help everyone!


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## Rising Moon (Feb 24, 2013)

I will say, the Growmore Alfalfa meal suggests WAY too much on the back of the box (big surprise...)

I would use only 1/2 to 1 tablespoon per gallon of soil.


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## headtreep (Mar 1, 2013)

*=*


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## headtreep (Mar 1, 2013)

I guess you can't barely see my = sign lol. Hope you get the point.


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## Rrog (Mar 1, 2013)

I get it!! Looks great. So you like?


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## headtreep (Mar 1, 2013)

Yep Rrog, but it's still tempting to apply ACT every week. I took the advice of not doing it so often and just left normal compost/ewc top dress. Your point about ACT, it seems, is that you pretty much can be lazy and drop dress with every amendment pretty much and water them in. Am I right? The advantage of ACT is using less compost with a quick delivery.


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## trichmasta (Mar 1, 2013)

Cann said:


> hmm...just realized I never factored in the stray cats in this town...it's possible they saw my soil mixes as a litter box...no feces, but they may have urinated and there would be no way for me to tell (except the gnarly ammonia smell). unfortunately, if this is my problem, it is not a very solvable one...
> 
> for now the soil is going on the backburner until the smell disappears or I decide to throw it on part of my yard. Puzzling.....
> 
> ...


thanks to all contributors to the BEST thread on riu!! 

Gonna add the bu's blend to my soil and tea game!! 

Awesome to see soooo much goodness in a bag....

soil<3


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## Rrog (Mar 1, 2013)

The more the merrier Trichmasta! Please stay tuned and let us know how this is going for you. Ask lots of questions! They help everyone including me.

Headtreep, that is my view of ACT, yes indeedy.


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## trichmasta (Mar 1, 2013)

For sure...! The peeps around here inspire me!! My goal is to be "bottle" free ASAP and really learn how to garden and be more sustainable with my practices!!

thanks for the good vibes and endless info that fill these pages!! I will be around and report back my findings...


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## Rising Moon (Mar 3, 2013)

So I tried the coconut water foilar feed some in here suggested. 

So far looking good, but I mixed it with some aerated EWC tea, so not much of a control.


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## headtreep (Mar 3, 2013)

Not making beer......


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## trichmasta (Mar 3, 2013)

Super sick headtreep!! Gonna brew me some enzymes this week too!! 

Can you elaborate on your process??


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## headtreep (Mar 3, 2013)

Soak the barley in water for 8 hours in a mason then drain. Let sprouts pop half to 1 inch and then fill mason jar back up with water and bubble 48 hours is what I've been doing. Then I water/foliar in 1:15 ratio of the enzymes.


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## NickNasty (Mar 3, 2013)

Got Aloe and Coconut Water at my local grocery store today and did a soil drench with both. One Aloe leaf did my whole 60+ plant garden and it took 8 bottles of Coconut water to do it all. The Aloe and the Coconut Water were 2$ a piece. The Aloe took a bit to figure out how to get the most out of it but I just ended up putting it in the food processor a bit at a time. I am going to get myself one of those small processors so I can just use it for my garden. We will see how well it works. Also got a couple pounds each of Comfrey and Nettle in the mail and will probably try that at a later time.


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## Rrog (Mar 4, 2013)

Good lookin' stuff NN.


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## Rising Moon (Mar 4, 2013)

Does anyone else get shiny spots on leaves after foilar feeding with coconut water?

I've taken to spraying my plants down with plain water an hour or so after a foilar feed to avoid this.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Mar 4, 2013)

I get that with aloe. I dont understand why do you spray it off with water? That's taking a step backwards.


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## headtreep (Mar 4, 2013)

Yeah I don't seem to have any issues. My leaves are always shiny with no residue. I go heavy too sometimes.


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## Cann (Mar 4, 2013)

rising moon im with you 100% about the shiny spots. I usually follow up a few days later with water, and then neem/silica once that dries and there are no more spots. 


Also, i have been told by higher powers that coconut water is better used in the soil than as a foliar. for enzymes, a sprouted seed foliar will do just fine. 

only seed tea foliars for me from now on. 


BTW headtreep I can attest to cootz' cloning method - i'll post some pics later today. totally green clones and amazing root growth sans clonex . that bubbling mason jar setup looks exactly like mine...lol.


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## headtreep (Mar 4, 2013)

Hey bro how you been?? Crazy I don't get residue. Yeah I do both with coconut water. I get very excellent results since using the trio of coconut, aloe, and enzymes.


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## headtreep (Mar 4, 2013)

Cann delete your PMs please


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## Rrog (Mar 4, 2013)

Cann said:


> Also, i have been told by higher powers that coconut water is better used in the soil than as a foliar. for enzymes, a sprouted seed foliar will do just fine.
> 
> only seed tea foliars for me from now on.


Coconuts are seeds  But I get ya.


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## Cann (Mar 4, 2013)

PM's are deleted (why is it only 50 messages on RIU??? fills up so fast...)

Rrog good point about the vernacular on that one..how you been? i've been so damn busy with life that I haven't even had time to read or post on any forum...I'm like 15 pages behind on the ROLS thread now lol not to mention the ALSG group...madness. 

bout to water my veggie gardens, juice some fresh citrus, and fill up 3 corny kegs with homebrew  all three are IPAs lol. 15 gallons of IPA = 

btw how worried are you guys about smell leaking from the house? I used to have my A/C vent out the side of my house through a window, but yesterday I decided to change that after I got a *strong* whiff of dankness on the sidewalk while checking my mailbox. I now have my A/C vent through the ceiling and into my attic, where it is pushed out the top of my roof by one of those spinning roof vent deals w/ a fan. The problem is, I can still smell it from the street sometimes depending on wind direction. Before it was noticeable that it was coming from my house, now it is harder to pinpoint...but the smell is still there. one of my neighbors is a cop for what its worth (across the street luckily). not that I am doing anything illegal, but it is still unnerving. 

how would you guys feel about this, and what would you do if you were to try and fix it?


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## Rrog (Mar 4, 2013)

Wow! Just curious, how many plants are causing this stink?


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## headtreep (Mar 4, 2013)

DANK fuckin stinks straight up hehe but yeah good point Rrog. What strain? I seal all my hoods with tape and run over sized scrubbers cause I'm paranoid in a smart way


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## Rising Moon (Mar 4, 2013)

I've got a carbon scrubber sucking from my flower tent, venting inside, and it works pretty good, but when I've got ladies in the last couple weeks before chop, you can smell them when your in the basement, but not outside.
Lol. My buddy grows all this Headband and OG and vents outside, no filter. His shit stinks! Pure Land we would say...


My Jack Herer plant STINKS right now. Only a couple weeks away!

I'll take some photos before cutting her down. 

What you got stinking Cann?


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## NickNasty (Mar 4, 2013)

I use to worry about it, then I got a Can 150 for my grow the thing is 5 ft tall and 150 lbs, but the fucker works. I have had it over a year and still no smell and for 350$ thats less then a 1$ a day to keep me from worrying about it. I live in a city and have a shared driveway with my neighbor who has 3 teenagers and my other neighbor is even closer so I don't want any smell. At my old house I use make my own filters or buy small ones but I got tired of coming home and being able to smell it 2 weeks after getting it. So I bit the bullet and got the biggest one I could find and not only has it saved me time and $ in the long run but now I have peace of mind.


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## headtreep (Mar 5, 2013)

Yep oversized is what you need for sure. I always go for quality when it comes to odor control because it does make a difference.


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## BeaverHuntr (Mar 5, 2013)

Organic grown plants stink way more than hydroponics thats for sure. I dont know why but they do.


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## Mohican (Mar 5, 2013)

100% Landrace Sativa has no smell! Grew some trees in my back yard and you could not smell a thing. When you touched them they smelled like basil and old spice. I had to chop at Thanksgiving though so they might have gotten stinky if they could have had 2 more months of sun


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## Cann (Mar 5, 2013)

its about 30 plants causing the stink..most are under 3'' though so nothing ridiculous. week 7.5 for most of them, week 5.5 for a few. i'm running through a bunch of the TGA stuff that I'm not going to keep...kaboom, the flav, ace of spades, etc. my only keepers from last time will be plushberry, cheese quake, and a good sativa pheno of the flav. too many plants throwing nanners...(some of these threw nanners again the second round so I am going to have some seeded buds... ) glad I got my hands on some new genetics. 

i have a can 70 filter that runs at all times venting through the roof, so the only thing causing stink was the A/C venting hot stanky air outside. maybe i will set the carbon filter to scrub the room and hope that the A/C will smell less now that i have it venting through the roof. I don't mind stink inside my house...its just on the sidewalk that scares me. perhaps I will put something strongly scented in my attic to mix with the weed smell...lots of orange trees here - maybe i'll hang a rag soaked with orange oil.


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## Mohican (Mar 5, 2013)

When I grew Mr Goo outside a couple years ago, I could smell it out front. It was a small plant - 4 feet - the Malawi was 10 feet and no smell


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## BeaverHuntr (Mar 5, 2013)

Cann said:


> its about 30 plants causing the stink..most are under 3'' though so nothing ridiculous. week 7.5 for most of them, week 5.5 for a few. i'm running through a bunch of the TGA stuff that I'm not going to keep...kaboom, the flav, ace of spades, etc. my only keepers from last time will be plushberry, cheese quake, and a good sativa pheno of the flav. too many plants throwing nanners...(some of these threw nanners again the second round so I am going to have some seeded buds... ) glad I got my hands on some new genetics.
> 
> i have a can 70 filter that runs at all times venting through the roof, so the only thing causing stink was the A/C venting hot stanky air outside. maybe i will set the carbon filter to scrub the room and hope that the A/C will smell less now that i have it venting through the roof. I don't mind stink inside my house...its just on the sidewalk that scares me. perhaps I will put something strongly scented in my attic to mix with the weed smell...lots of orange trees here - maybe i'll hang a rag soaked with orange oil.



I know exactly what you mean.. I run a sealed room and use raptor hoods but for some reason either the grow room air gets through the glass and seal of the hood or it penetrates my ducting. ANyways my ducting exhausts in the attic and I you can smell it in late flower usually after week 5. I was thinking of throwing a a booster fan on the end of the ducting and push that air through a small carbon scrubber, better safe than sorry. That or maybe a jar of the ona brick , not the ona gel.


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## BeaverHuntr (Mar 5, 2013)

Mohican said:


> When I grew Mr Goo outside a couple years ago, I could smell it out front. It was a small plant - 4 feet - the Malawi was 10 feet and no smell


When I ran hydro I never had smell issues, ANd sometimes I would run my flood table and 12 plus plants and never had any strong odors outside the sealed room, with organics the odor is so much stronger, I guess I'll have to buy one of those huge carbon scrubbers. and in my sealed room my carbon scrubber runs 24/7.


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## sullivan666 (Mar 5, 2013)

I love this forum. Just discovered this thread and read a few pages...so much good info. I've been using AACTs with good results, but I hear what Rrog and others are saying about it not providing anything more than good compost/vermicompost. 

I found the info on using seed sprout teas and aloe/coco water particularly interesting and will try aloe on my next water. I was gonna AACT next water, but now I'm gonna top dress with some EWC and local compost with a lil DE to hold off some of these unknown lil "mites" I've been seeing recently and water with 2tbsp aloe and 1tsp agsil per gallon.

Definitely looking to find some barley and comfey as well.

I can't wait to start applying all of this to my veggie garden once I get it going.


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## Rising Moon (Mar 5, 2013)

Cool!

Just know that the DE wont do much to the mites once it's wet. I'm pretty sure they need to come into contact with the dry powder in order to be affected, as it dehydrates them or something. 

But, I could be wrong.


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## Rrog (Mar 6, 2013)

DE when dry, will have sharp edges to cut open the soft bodies of some larvae. I don't use DE any longer, as I think it makes the soil a bit mucky. I don't need the water holding properties and have other agents in place for pests. That's just what I do.


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## Rising Moon (Mar 6, 2013)

But didn't you know, DE is just calcium bentonite ?

One of the really important rock dusts, also called azomite. 

I use quite a bit of this stuff in my mixes, never had any muck problems, but I also use lots of coco.


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## Rrog (Mar 6, 2013)

I have several Ca sources and I use Bentonite Clay, actually. EWC has a lot of Ca.. it's the shit!


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## Rising Moon (Mar 6, 2013)

Man some of these Kush hybrids I grow cant get enough of the Calcium...

You would think they evolved over a limestone deposit or something, haha.

Probably all those Minerals from the Hindu Kush mountains washing down the hillsides each year...


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## Rrog (Mar 6, 2013)

Huge CaCO3 in the castings.


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## BeaverHuntr (Mar 6, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Man some of these Kush hybrids I grow cant get enough of the Calcium...
> 
> You would think they evolved over a limestone deposit or something, haha.
> 
> Probably all those Minerals from the Hindu Kush mountains washing down the hillsides each year...


I have a strain by raskal OG called " WHite Bubba " ( Raskals White x Pre-98 ) and I have the same issue dude. The thing is a cal/mag whore.


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## headtreep (Mar 6, 2013)

2 inch Ewc/compost top dress haven't had a single deficiency since using that. Besides that if
you're using ACT frequently you should have few problems. Also a good kelp tea foliar can go along way.


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## Rising Moon (Mar 7, 2013)

Dont forget the Stinging Nettles !


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## grnhrvstr (Mar 8, 2013)

subbed!

thx for all the 411 peeps!


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## Rising Moon (Mar 9, 2013)

What do you guys think about this...

http://www.amazon.com/iSpring-6-Stage-Reverse-Osmosis-Alkaline/dp/B005LJ8EXU/ref=pd_cp_hi_2

On tap RO mineral water anyone...?


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## Rrog (Mar 10, 2013)

Looks like standard 5-stage RO filter with a sixth stage that appears to re-introduce some ions. RO water will have ions anyway, but they appear to be marketing a reintroduction of them. 

In my next place I'm using my water pump to increase the pressure from the RO so that it will run my Blumats. RO water after 5 stages is similar to rain water, as far as I can tell. I've already added trace minerals to my soil.


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## Rising Moon (Mar 10, 2013)

Thanks!

I really don't know much about them...

But really need to upgrade, and the price isnt too bad...

I need to research more I think.


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## headtreep (Mar 10, 2013)

I decided to abandon my Sub Supersoil hybrid recipe for the past year and move on to a real living soil using non commercial bag soil (Roots). So far this is what I got "Baking" in my trashcan. I have crab meal and oyster shell coming that I will mix in later in the week.

Per cubic ft

1/3 Sphagnum Peat from Premier Peat
1/3 Aeration material verm perlite DE (had these materials already)
1/3 EWC/Compost (Bioflora Kelp and fish)

4 cups Glacial rock dust
1/2 Cup Neem Meal
2 Cups Kelp Meal
2 Cups Fish Bone Meal
1/2 Cup Alfalfa
1/2 Cup powdered dolomite lime
1/2 Cup agricultural gypsum

Hoping to see usual results








]


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## Rrog (Mar 10, 2013)

Lemme know if you find out anything relative to the water. So many people demonize RO water because it has no minerals. But neither does rainwater

EDIT:

Headtreep, that is some tasty looking bud, bro. 

Soil sounds good too! Thanks for keeping us in the loop.


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## headtreep (Mar 10, 2013)

We can't use tap here cause it's straight nasty in Phoenix. I use nothing but RO water. I have a 2 and 5 stage and depending on which is closer is the one I use but typically the 2 stage.


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## Rrog (Mar 10, 2013)

RO has a hard time with Chloramine if your water has that. You'd maybe want a catalyzed carbon filter, in addition to the standard carbon scrubbers on a 5 stage filter.


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## headtreep (Mar 10, 2013)

Rrog said:


> RO has a hard time with Chloramine if your water has that. You'd maybe want a catalyzed carbon filter, in addition to the standard carbon scrubbers on a 5 stage filter.


Pretty sure we don't have Chloramine in our water cause I remember calling the city before.


EDIT: I keep my RO constantly bubbling too


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## Rrog (Mar 10, 2013)

Headtreep- you have a reservoir of RO? Good to bubble, I'd agree.


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## headtreep (Mar 10, 2013)

Yes I do, a converted garbage can with a hand sprayer hooked up to a hose


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## headtreep (Mar 10, 2013)

I moving on to blumats next man. I've always wanted those even when I used to run coco drip. Can you point me to a good place to buy those Rrog? Amazon? I see ebay has them pretty cheap. What is a good start for let's say 4x 7 gal pots? Two carrots in each? Any cool accessories? I could prob read a shitload about those but my time is limited so please spare me if you can


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## Rrog (Mar 11, 2013)

For a 7 gallon pot, I'd use one large Maxi "carrot" per pot, and three drippers.


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## trichmasta (Mar 11, 2013)

Any one using yucca extract? Looks like a great addition and super beneficial for nutrient uptake...

so for veg I will add alfalfa meal and botanicals to my brews; bloom I'm thinking rock phosphate, kelp meal, and rock dust...

i also added bu's blend and have got my eye on some fungal compost and microbe catalyst from keep it simple...

ladies loved the Ewc top dress!!


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## grnhrvstr (Mar 11, 2013)

Holy shit Agent R,these things are sik az fuk!!! I know what im askin santa for this year.

Here is a pretty cheap place Agent H 
http://www.sustainablevillage.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_68&product_id=90


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## Cann (Mar 11, 2013)

jealous of all you guys with blumats....i spend way too much time watering. I think if I had the moisture dialed I would be pulling a lot bigger harvests. 

Do y'all think it is possible to overwater an air pot or smart pot? Cause part of me feels like watering every day, but I'm afraid of overdoing it. Is overwatering only detrimental due to the lack of oxygen? or is there actually something about the h2o that causes problems at a certain concentration? cause if it's only oxygen i need to be worried about I could definitely water every day...


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## Mohican (Mar 11, 2013)

Some people grow directly in bubbling water so you should be OK as long as there is good air exposure too.


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## Cann (Mar 11, 2013)

thats what I figured...DWC and all. 

the "overwatering" issue seems to be lack of oxygen leading to anaerobic conditions, not excess h2o. good to know


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## BeaverHuntr (Mar 11, 2013)

headtreep said:


> We can't use tap here cause it's straight nasty in Phoenix. I use nothing but RO water. I have a 2 and 5 stage and depending on which is closer is the one I use but typically the 2 stage.



This is true! Dont drink the water in the desert! I been using the Stealth 100 R/O system ( 2 stage sediment & Carbon ) in hydro settings and soil / organics settings and never once had a issue. When I was growing hydro I would PPM the R/O water out of curiosity and it was always in the 20-30 range.


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## wyteboi (Mar 13, 2013)

Cann said:


> thats what I figured...DWC and all.
> 
> the "overwatering" issue seems to be lack of oxygen leading to anaerobic conditions, not excess h2o. good to know


Yes , your correct , there is no such thing as too much water as long as the o2 is sufficiant. then your dead on with the anaerobic conditions being the problem with not enough o2.



soil


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## wyteboi (Mar 13, 2013)

oh and hello to all ..... its been awhile.




soil


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## Rrog (Mar 14, 2013)

Hey wyteboi- What's happening?


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## Rising Moon (Mar 14, 2013)

I'm taking down my Jack Herer girl on Saturday, I'll be taking some pictures tonight or tomorrow, and I'll post em up on this thread in the next couple days...

One of the best plants I've grown thus far, and I feel like I almost, finally dialed in a soil mix for this very hungry girl, I'll be adding less alfalfa meal and more kelp, but nonetheless looking good! And my first grow with a water only mix. (TBH I did innoculate with AACT once, and had to add some liquid kelp near the end of flower for need of potash)

Thanks to all in this thread, for keeping my head where it should be (thinking about soil..), and being a great bouncing board for my ideas, and yours. It's inspirational!

More in a couple days...


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## Rrog (Mar 14, 2013)

Great news on the JH. That's such an excellent strain, I hear. Would love to see some pics if you are able.


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## BeaverHuntr (Mar 14, 2013)

your inbox is full RROG!


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## Rrog (Mar 14, 2013)

Just emptied... I can still hear the flushing noise...


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## StickyEnigma (Mar 14, 2013)

Hi, Im new at brewing, the recipe I've been using http://forum.grasscity.com/introduce-yourself/718389-organic-guano-tea-recipe-spaceship-farmer.html and some other basic recipes. Wondering why Concentrated Fish emulsions are only in" Veg 2 Brew"?


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## grnhrvstr (Mar 15, 2013)

StickyEnigma said:


> Hi, Im new at brewing, the recipe I've been using http://forum.grasscity.com/introduce-yourself/718389-organic-guano-tea-recipe-spaceship-farmer.html and some other basic recipes. Wondering why Concentrated Fish emulsions are only in" Veg 2 Brew"?


My guess would be the an extra boost of a stronger nitrogen?Id use fish hydrolysate instead of emulsion but either way nice recipes!


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## Cann (Mar 15, 2013)

don't use fish emulsion. hydrolysate is what you want. emulsion is all sorts of nasty for your ladies...despite what it might say on the Home Depot shelves...


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## Cann (Mar 15, 2013)

The one downside to enzyme teas - plants that are too fat to support themselves!!!

This vortex is just laughable. All the silica in the world couldn't save this one lol. This will be the last vortex in my garden.

Lavender getting so chunky that its lower buds are flopping over. These lower buds are the size of my colas last round...

A ghetto mainlined Plushberry cut - this one always throws a few nanners at the end but she is so productive that I don't mind. Chopped @ 55 days. Au natural with the crispy dead leaves


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## VTMi'kmaq (Mar 15, 2013)

Cann said:


> The one downside to enzyme teas - plants that are too fat to support themselves!!!
> 
> This vortex is just laughable. All the silica in the world couldn't save this one lol. This will be the last vortex in my garden.
> View attachment 2570743
> ...


lmao about the silica! What a wonderful bounty my friend! Can i PLEASE get some info on that lavendar? I think im in love!


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## Cann (Mar 15, 2013)

so is anyone else in favor of a new sticky that is about soil "recycling" (ha), no-till gardening, enzyme teas, etc. instead of compost teas? I just find it a bit ironic that at this point we have discredited compost teas for the most part, but the title of the thread is still "gardening with compost teas" - something that most of us aren't doing anymore. 

just a thought. the soil food web part is perfect, its just the second half that gets me.


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## headtreep (Mar 15, 2013)

Cann said:


> so is anyone else in favor of a new sticky that is about soil "recycling" (ha), no-till gardening, enzyme teas, etc. instead of compost teas? I just find it a bit ironic that at this point we have discredited compost teas for the most part, but the title of the thread is still "gardening with compost teas" - something that most of us aren't doing anymore.
> 
> just a thought. the soil food web part is perfect, its just the second half that gets me.


Im with you man. I just transplanted my ladies in my homemade soil mix. I have some beautiful pics to post soon.


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## Rrog (Mar 16, 2013)

Recycling would be a great thread theme. Just as you say.

Cann, you have some great looking plants there! Much props to you.

I have some Vortex seeds that I wasn't sure about planting.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Mar 16, 2013)

Can i PLEASE have one of you enlighten me with some reading on enzyme tea's? I will start here at the thread scouring posts(yeah im stubborn like that), but if anyone can help with a knowledgebase i can pull from id be very appreciative. I refuse to fall behind!


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## Rrog (Mar 16, 2013)

These Botanical Teas use a simple cool water extraction to give us Secondary Metabolites, Plant Enzymes and Hormones. Builds the plant's own natural immunity to pest / disease. Some of the teas use seeds that you sprout. You can use Barley, Corn, Alfalfa, etc. Here's a recipe for these tried, tested recipes from Clackamas Coot:

2 tablespoons of seeds (1 oz.) 
Soak for 12 hours. Drain that water and throw away. It&#8217;s full of growth inhibitors. 
Add 1/2 gallon of water to the sprouts for the 48 hour soak. 
Strain and use 1 cup of this to 1 gallon of water.

What coconut water gives you are GA - specifically G1 thru G8, IAA, enzymes and Cytokinins

What corn malt gives you is a very rich source of Cytokinins as well and the one that has been researched extensively, Zeatin, was named for the genus Zea - maize or corn

Zeatin promotes growth of the lateral buds and stimulates cell division to produce bushier plants when sprayed on the apical meristem


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## VTMi'kmaq (Mar 16, 2013)

Looks to me like i need to be soaking some corn SOON!


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## Rrog (Mar 16, 2013)

All of those are excellent as soil drench or foliar


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## VTMi'kmaq (Mar 16, 2013)

I digress i have 9 bales of this lmao!


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## Rising Moon (Mar 16, 2013)

rising moon said:


> i'm taking down my jack herer girl on saturday, i'll be taking some pictures tonight or tomorrow, and i'll post em up on this thread in the next couple days...
> 
> One of the best plants i've grown thus far, and i feel like i almost, finally dialed in a soil mix for this very hungry girl, i'll be adding less alfalfa meal and more kelp, but nonetheless looking good! And my first grow with a water only mix. (tbh i did innoculate with aact once, and had to add some liquid kelp near the end of flower for need of potash)
> 
> ...


photos:

View attachment 2571691View attachment 2571692View attachment 2571693View attachment 2571694View attachment 2571695View attachment 2571696


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## headtreep (Mar 16, 2013)

White Lotus and Hindu Blue enjoying all their ROLS TLC haha









Blue Tara:


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## Cann (Mar 16, 2013)

nice looking plants everyone. greeeeen

rrog - I'm pretty sure the other day coot said that he doesn't use enzyme teas (sprouted seed or coconut h2o) as a foliar anymore - it only goes into the soil. He said something along the lines of "I'm not sure what effect enzymes would have on the leaf surface". Just throwing that out there - I only hit my ladies with aloe foliars or neem/silica - i stopped with the coconut h2o and barley seed foliars a few weeks ago and havent noticed any difference. the coconut h2o would leave a weird residue on the leaves that I didn't like.


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## headtreep (Mar 16, 2013)

Werd. I need to look into that. I drench and foliar with most things.


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## Rrog (Mar 16, 2013)

Good tip, Caan- I'll update my files. 

How do you like the Agsil? I just use Neem Meal in the soil. Do you add Agsil to soil also?

Headtreep- those are so damn frosty!!


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## headtreep (Mar 16, 2013)

So is that the case then? Only foliars with aloe, neem, silica, etc?


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## Cann (Mar 16, 2013)

nah no Agsil in the soil for me, I have tossed a little in my worm bins though - so when I get around to using that EWC, I guess Agsil will be in the soil. 

I do topdress with neem meal - seems to take care of a lot of insects. gnats can be super persistent so sometimes I have to break out a mosquito dunk or two. 

The agsil works amazing as an emulsifier - much better than my pro-tekt. I couldnt for the life of me emulsify Ahimsa neem oil with pro-tekt (it was the end of a bottle of pro-tekt so I think something went wrong...) even after repeated trys with warm water and consulting coot via PM, nothing. He suggested that it might be the pro-tekt, and whaddya know - as soon as I got my Agsil and mixed it with neem I was amazed. It is almost frothy/foamy vs the pro-tekt which just changed the color of the liquid. The agsil seems to increase the volume almost as if you are whipping cream. Prime stuff, and a fraction of the price. I'm converted


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## Cann (Mar 16, 2013)

found the quote:

Someone asked CC about enzyme teas _"Would this have any benefits if sprayed instead of applied to the root zone??"_

His response: 

_"I've used the coconut water and the enzyme teas on the soil so I don't have any information in that regard.

These are some of specific enzymes we get from sprouted seeds (amylase, arylsulphatase, &#946;-glucosidase, cellulase, chitinase, dehydrogenase, phosphatase, protease, and urease) - I can't see what benefit or even reaction they would create on the surface of leaves & branches. 

Veganically speaking that is....."

CC

_
after that I stopped using barley and coconut h2o foliars...i'll let you guys draw your own conclusions. there might be something to gain - maybe nothing to lose? besides time I guess. all I know is I spray aloe twice a week and neem/silica once a week. more if i'm worried about pests/PM.


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## headtreep (Mar 16, 2013)

Borrowed from eyecmag:

Hey folks (specifically newbs to ROLS),

I have read this entire thread as closely as my amateur skills have allowed me, and I have created a very terse compilation of notes, based exclusively from this thread. Meaning anything said can be sourced somewhere in this thread. There is such an extensive array of valuable information here I feel it warrants a summary of key terms/ideas, mainly for any newbs who have joined the boat late and who would like to source information quickly. If one person finds value in them other than myself, then it's worth posting

*Disclaimer*

These are my notes. As such, please take them with a grain of salt. Rather than rely on the specific claims I make in my notes or the figures I use, I recommend using them as an index of terms that can and should be searched for to help you locate specific topics quickly and efficiently. Also, these notes by no means cover all of the topics discussed. Unfortunately, they only touch on topics that are of specific interest to me. For example, you will find nothing regarding breeding, of which there is plenty discussed in this thread. I haven't tested many of these suggestions, and I haven't tested most on a long term basis. Remeber, these notes are coming from a newb!

Without further ado...

ROLS Notes


-Kelp has so many trace elements that it improve plants immune system against disease, insects, weather. Foliar is the most effective. Foliar roots during transplant. Growth max or growth plus are good brands. Foliar in the morning. Apply 1/2-3/4 cup of kelp meal to 1 c.f. of potting soil everyrecycle. Do not use liquid kelp as these products have far less benefits than raw kelp meal.

-Alfalfa has many trace minerals as well as n-p-k-Ca-mg, sugars, starches, protein, fiber and 16 amino acids. Use on top of soil sprinkling lightly or 1 cup per 1 c.f. soil mix or 1 tbs per gallon ACT. Excellent foliar feed. Use alfalfa seed tea early in flower to reduce internodal spacing.

-Aloe juice - simply crush the leaves and collect the juice. Aloe foliar @ 2 tbls per gallon water once every 3 days. Unprocessed Aloe must use within 20 minutes due to decomposition. Supplement with worm castings and casting teas. Great for rooting clones. Great for PM resistance along with neem, kelp and alfalfa. Excellent in rooting clones just add 2 oz per gallon water. 2 tbls per gallon foliar spray. Apply 1-3 times a week. Soil drench and foliar are identical.

Vermicompost
-use coffee beans for N. ph is about 6.9 for used grounds.
-leaves and straw for bedding.
-add grit like sand or limestone or eggshells for worm digestion @ 1% total mass
-red wriggler can live 0-30 degrees celsius. Optimal temps 15-25
-up to 20% worm biomass
-use citrus peels and onions with caution

-Fish bone meal - replace every other recycle for 5 cycles, then add every 3-4 cycles. Use 1-3 cups per 6 gallons depending on other high N sources such as alfalfa. High in phosphorous.

-Sphagnum peat is not inert it is alive! Look specifically for sphagnum.Holds 20x water to weight. Aerates heavy clay soils. Speeds up composting. Decomposes slowly over several years as opposed to compost which completely decomposes after a year.

-Stinging nettles and comfrey are a powerful pesticide and fungicide. Dice and purée 2 cups of comfrey or stinging nettles and let sit in water for no more than 3 days. Folier as well as soil drench.

-Rice hulls are a superior substitute for perlite. Perlite floats to the top of the pot. Also try lava rock.

-Leaf mold takes 6 months to a year to decompose. Speed the process up by throwing in high N stuff like compost, alfalfa meal. Use 2 quarts per cubic foot of soil. Great for moisture retention and aeration.

-Spider mites - control with neem foliar spray and rosemary oil spray. 10% rosemary oil to 90% water. -cardamom - grind 1/4 cup then place in hot water. Let cool. Go spray spider mites. Lavender tea. mite magnet - live Basel plants.

-Heat stress - use barley seed extract tea, same method as other enzyme seed teas.

-freshly rooted clones - couple days before transplanting add 1 tbs kelp meal , 2 tbs alfalfa meal, 1 gallon water bubble for 36-48 hrs for a boost in growth.

-Mineralization - azomite , gypsum (home depot) limestone and glacial rock @ 32 tbs per c.f. (total)Go to a landscape supply and load a bucket of all the rock u want! Try to go for volcanic rock dusts, as these contain silica.

-Thrips - ladybird larvae eat thrip larvae. Electric bug zapper. Bacteria called spinosad. Monterey garden insect w/ spinosad. Entrust 80w. Nematodes. Mums. Gerbera. Only foliar spray spinosad. Foliar with aloe and protekt. 1/4 aloe 2 tsp protekt per gallon solution. Know thrip life cycle.

-Cilantro pesticide- buy a bunch of organic cilantro. Place in food processor. Throw in 1 gallon of clearwater. Sit for 36 to 48 hours, no more. Strain. Add 1 cup of strained cilantro tea to 15 cups of water. Add quarter cup of Aloe Vera juice. 1 teaspoon pro-tekt. 30 minutes before lights out spray and soak everything. Leave ventilation on. Apply every four days for four applications. Use in conjunction with spinosad.

-Silica - use every watering and foliar spray up to harvest. Great pest and disease control. Protekt and agsil 16h are good brands. Agsil is greater value for your money. 148 grams agsil to 1 litre water = protekt. Silica is an emulsifier (i.e. use with neem oil)! 2 tsp protekt to 1 g water.

-Organic cloning gel - 1 g water, 2 tbs aloe Vera, 1.5 tbs Ful-power, 1.5 ts Protekt. Shake. Soak jiffy pucks for several hours. Use rooting product as well.

-Water retention - saponins. Horse chestnuts have a lot of saponins.

-Foliar - once a week, with something. Stop half way through flower. Always use Ful-Power to half harvest. Use Protekt till harvest.

-Neem - 1/4 cup per 1 cf every re ammend. Foliar-4 tsp per gallon. Emulsify with protekt. Ensure that water is at least 75 degrees fahrenheit when mixing final solution, otherwise it will clump - useless.

-Biochar. Hardwood charcoal. Smash to bits. Prevents yellowing via slow release of nutrients. Optional: place in compost pile. Allow up to 10% total soil volume. Cowboy charcoal from whole foods. Take bag of char, add 1/2 gallon EWC, 2-4 cups fish or guano or alfalfa or comfrey, soak a week in ACT, strain and add to soil.

-Enzyme tea -2 tablespoons of seeds (1 oz.) The choice of seeds is non specific. Almost anything works. Soak for 12-18 hours in mason jar. Drain that water and throw away it&#8217;s full of growth inhibitors. After a day or so once sprouted, add 1/2 gallon of water to the sprouts for a 36-48 hour soak. Strain and use 1 cup of this to 1 gallon of water as soil drench. Observe 'praying' leaves. Chop seeds for worm food. Do not store these teas.

-Coconut - scraping coconut paste from a young coconut. Enzymes, auxins, elements, etc. 1 coconut can do 20 plants. 1 oz coconut water to 15 oz water foliar spray clones. Benefits are too numerous to list.


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## headtreep (Mar 16, 2013)

That's pretty much all you need to get started and the rest is learn as you go or wait for the organic terrorists to put up more info. Try getting some farm books too. 


Im reading this and a few others currently:
[h=1]The Biological Farmer: A Complete Guide to the Sustainable & Profitable Biological System of Farming[/h]


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## headtreep (Mar 16, 2013)

Rrog,

Do you not use teas often since you use blumats? Now your whole mix in the soil topdress makes more sense. I assume just like the good old hydro days those lines can get clogged especially giving them all that organic love.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Mar 16, 2013)

Thanks guys,


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## Rising Moon (Mar 16, 2013)

I have great results spraying all sorts of herbal concoctions I come up with.

Nettle, Dandelion leaf, Red Clover flower, Chamomile, Comfrey, Kelp, Yarrow, Horsetail, Borage, Valerian...

Ill just spray one for a certain effect, or combine them for synergistic effects. No pests or disease, and healthy happy plants.


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## Rrog (Mar 16, 2013)

Spliff! Good to see you! I love the pic. Looks outstandingly healthy.

Headtreep- Teas are no issue. Or any drench, for that matter. The Blumats just shut themselves off until it's dry again. I used to run straight well water, which is pretty hard here, and that's fine but not for soil to be recycled. Next grow will be using RO with a pump to increase the pressure across the membrane for better filtration and capacity and then a pressure reducer from Blumat.


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## Rrog (Mar 16, 2013)

Moon- you really have the salad tuned, my man. Is any of that fresh, by chance?


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## headtreep (Mar 16, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Spliff! Good to see you! I love the pic. Looks outstandingly healthy.
> 
> Headtreep- Teas are no issue. Or any drench, for that matter. The Blumats just shut themselves off until it's dry again. I used to run straight well water, which is pretty hard here, and that's fine but not for soil to be recycled. Next grow will be using RO with a pump to increase the pressure across the membrane for better filtration and capacity and then a pressure reducer from Blumat.


Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Do teas and other concoctions clog those lines? Seems like top feed tea makes sense and only keeping water in your res.


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## Rising Moon (Mar 16, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Moon- you really have the salad tuned, my man. Is any of that fresh, by chance?


You talking about the garden photos I posted in the MI forum?

Im still working on last years carrots, Ive got a whole tote of them...

Just now getting started on the veggie seeds, planting lettuce, peppers, eggplant and more in flats tomorrow! 

I cant believe its almost spring!


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## Rrog (Mar 16, 2013)

Ooooooohhhhh.. Sorry my friend. I misunderstood. The Blumat lines are sensitive and 3mm small. I would not run a tea through it and I myself am looking forward to running just RO. Guys that run chems through have to flush the lines

Moon- I dig your new Avatar! I was just asking if you grow or have access to fresh Comfrey, etc I haven't seen your groovy pics yet.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Mar 16, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Spliff! Good to see you! I love the pic. Looks outstandingly healthy.
> 
> I used to run straight well water, which is pretty hard here, and that's fine but not for soil to be recycled.


Thanks Rrog, why would you want to use RO water vs Tap/Catchment Water when recycling soil? 
I got some idea's...but I would like to know were you're going with this idea.


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## Rising Moon (Mar 16, 2013)

Rrog:

Ohhh right on.

Yeah I grow comfrey and all the others I mentioned as well, funny because I just posted some garden pics of salad greens and thought thats what you were referring to,
good timing.

Such amazing plants to grow, the bees and butterflies just LOVE them, and I do too!


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## headtreep (Mar 16, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Ooooooohhhhh.. Sorry my friend. I misunderstood. The Blumat lines are sensitive and 3mm small. I would not run a tea through it and I myself am looking forward to running just RO. Guys that run chems through have to flush the lines
> 
> Moon- I dig your new Avatar! I was just asking if you grow or have access to fresh Comfrey, etc I haven't seen your groovy pics yet.


Jah mon I used to run a chem coco drip so I know  Thanks again my friend!!! Just RO will be used.


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## Rrog (Mar 16, 2013)

In my new place I'm raising honeybees and planting the types of plants they prefer. As a civilization we treat them so poorly


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## Rising Moon (Mar 16, 2013)

Hairy Vetch, Queen Annes Lace, Parsnip, Borage and Crimson clover have been amazing bee forage from what I have seen.


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## Rrog (Mar 16, 2013)

That's very good to know! Thank you!


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## Rising Moon (Mar 16, 2013)

*BUCKWHEAT (I forgot)

Honey bees go CRAZY for it, and its fun to smoke a bowl and watch the bees land on all the tiny buckwheat clusters, tipping them towards the ground with their weight as they gorge on nectar


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## VTMi'kmaq (Mar 17, 2013)

[video=youtube_share;874Yp9lEtj4]http://youtu.be/874Yp9lEtj4[/video]
here ya go kiddo's happy viewing!


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## headtreep (Mar 19, 2013)

Help I think I have a Cal/Mg deficiency lol!!


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## Rrog (Mar 19, 2013)

Ya, clearly... Better get some Bloom Boom on that quick!


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Mar 19, 2013)

I have only used fresh aloe for foilar so far, and I use the leftover to water my plant with. About the aloe powder, which one did you get? 40x or 200x? I was wondering if you mix with 1 tsp(ect) of the 200x powder or still mix @ 2 tbs/gal? Great results with fresh aloe, but I want some powder until I get more plants. Right now I have 6 aloe vera's, but I don't want to take any more fillets off them. They need to recover...lol


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## headtreep (Mar 19, 2013)

http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item.php?item_id=111

Hope that helps. I have not started using the powder yet (still using my liquid) so I will need to look into that. I use a 1/4 cup liquid aloe to gal h20. I go a little heavy. Prob have to do the math for the 200x aloe dried.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Mar 19, 2013)

Yes I seen that when I was about to order. I'm pretty sure CC only uses the powder, and if the recipe is from him 2 tbs/gal should be fine? I'm guessing.


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## Rrog (Mar 19, 2013)

Spliff- what dilution of fresh Aloe do you use? 2 Tablespoons per gallon or such?


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Mar 19, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Spliff- what dilution of fresh Aloe do you use? 2 Tablespoons per gallon or such?


I just take a aloe leaf straight off the plant, and filet it , one leaf usually equals two tbs of goop but I don't like the waste it so I guess I have been mixing 1 aloe fillets to every gallon of water. Then I throw the skins in the vermicompost


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## Rrog (Mar 19, 2013)

Sounds groovy. Fresh is always going to have some edge on powder. I wish it grew faster. House is cold


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Mar 19, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Sounds groovy. Fresh is always going to have some edge on powder. I wish it grew faster. House is cold


I hate the cold, thats why I live here haha. One day I will have enough in my garden to only use fresh, but like you said it grows kinda slow. Too much demand not enough supply, I have 9 now. I think I will 25-35 should be enough..


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## headtreep (Mar 19, 2013)

Like having a new camera that's convenient to use.


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## Rrog (Mar 19, 2013)

That is some frosty stuff. Check out the fan leaves.


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## Rising Moon (Mar 20, 2013)

What strain is that headtreep ?

Looks fire.


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## headtreep (Mar 20, 2013)

Blue Tara. Sucks cause I lost the mom (clone). Feel like a newb lol. Never leave your aerocloner unplugged for too long. I went back to the old fashion way since but without synthetic rooting hormone. I just completed my first run with a 90% success and pleased with that.

*Organic cloning solution - 1 g water, 2 tbs aloe Vera, 1.5 tbs Ful-power, 1.5 ts Protekt. Shake. Soak clones in solution for a few hours or over night. Soak jiffy/rapid rooter plug in the solution and put your clones in as normal, and then put in dome.*


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## Rising Moon (Mar 20, 2013)

Don't feel bad...

Actually my buddy takes clones the day he harvests sometimes..Lol. They take FOREVER to not be straight up deformed, but 20% or so turn out just fine and alas the strain is saved again...

I like mothers.


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## Mohican (Mar 20, 2013)

Fellow Growers,
Can I request some seed pictures? I am trying to get a good collection of seed images to show the different sizes, colors, and patterns.

You can post them here:

https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/635589-seed-pictures.html



Cheers,
Mo


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Mar 20, 2013)

headtreep said:


> *Organic cloning solution - 1 g water, 2 tbs aloe Vera, 1.5 tbs Ful-power, 1.5 ts Protekt. Shake. Soak clones in solution for a few hours or over night. Soak jiffy/rapid rooter plug in the solution and put your clones in as normal, and then put in dome.*


I am going to use this method, Cann's tried it and his results looked great. My only question is what about the aloe doesn't it go bad after 20 minutes..?


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## Cann (Mar 20, 2013)

aloe doesn't so much go "bad" as it goes "not as good". some of the enzymes and secondary metabolites might be gone after about 20 minutes, but you will still get all the rooting power of saponins and salicylic acid. definitely better than not including the aloe, thats for sure. I was shocked by the results with this method. I will never revert to cloning gel again


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## Rrog (Mar 20, 2013)

Ya- that's a better description. I'm paraphrasing here, but when the Benzoic Acid (a lot of it, apparently) in the Aloe hits the open air- that's when fermentation starts. You're right in that only some, and not all goodness is lost, and I think Coot likes a particular brand of dried that he's pretty happy with.


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## headtreep (Mar 20, 2013)

I know some people can be skeptic but man this shit works well. I'm not here to waste my time or anyone's just parroting some bomb ass info so you all can reap the benefits and spread the love.


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## Rrog (Mar 20, 2013)

This is just good information to spread. More need to know. Super quality- and with recycling, it gets super cheap, super quick.


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## Rising Moon (Mar 21, 2013)

Right on everyone!Just as soon as spring gets going I'm going to post a bit of a tutorial on how I recycle my soil. I can't wait for some sunshine and soil under my finger nails.


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## Mohican (Mar 21, 2013)

Can I feed the aloe to my worms? My Costco has Aloe water - will that work, or have they pasteurized away all the good bits?


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## grnhrvstr (Mar 21, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Right on everyone!Just as soon as spring gets going I'm going to post a bit of a tutorial on how I recycle my soil. I can't wait for some sunshine and soil under my finger nails.


Im kinda excited about this ^ and looking forward to all the great feedback on it.The whole throwing primo soil away is freaking absurdly silly.


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## Cann (Mar 21, 2013)

*Can I feed the aloe to my worms? My Costco has Aloe water - will that work, or have they pasteurized away all the good bits?*​

Definitely feed the old aloe filets/scraps to your worms. they'll love it. As far as the costco aloe goes, we need to know more info. what is the brand? ingredients? if it has potassium sorbate its a no-go. citric acid is all you really want in there besides aloe. Lily of the desert makes a preservative free (only citric acid) product that is sold at health foods all around so-cal. you're down here, yes? Clarks nutrition is a good source if there is one locally. 


Also rising moon and grnhrvstr - I have pics/info on my soil recycling process, do y'all want me to post them? I am considering making a ROLS (recycled organic living soil) thread, and the tutorial would be my first post. thoughts?


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## grnhrvstr (Mar 21, 2013)

Cann said:


> *Can I feed the aloe to my worms? My Costco has Aloe water - will that work, or have they pasteurized away all the good bits?*​
> 
> Definitely feed the old aloe filets/scraps to your worms. they'll love it. As far as the costco aloe goes, we need to know more info. what is the brand? ingredients? if it has potassium sorbate its a no-go. citric acid is all you really want in there besides aloe. Lily of the desert makes a preservative free (only citric acid) product that is sold at health foods all around so-cal. you're down here, yes? Clarks nutrition is a good source if there is one locally.
> 
> ...



I got all giddy when it was first mentioned.Id def am interested in knowing the process of successful recycling of soil.Ive read so many conflicting threads on the matter but do believe in it .For what its worth, despite all the nay sayers, ive been bagging up used soil after ive flushed it.I have a 5 gal bucket with 50 or so holes drilled in it that I fill up with used roots organics thats had most of the roots removed be screening and then had 5-10 gallons of water ran through it.I figured if I cant reuse it for future cannabis plants that I could use it to amend to my outdoor soil which is mostly decomposed granite or in my raised beds.

Either way im so down for your idea Mr C


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## Rrog (Mar 22, 2013)

Grnhrvstr- I agree- 

Regarding the nay-sayers, let's keep in mind that plants have been growing in soil for millions of years. What is there really for them to say nay about? If they'd prefer not to use soil- cool! Who cares? Their choice. But someone slamming soil is like slamming breast-feeding a baby. If someone wants to raise their child on infant formula, groovy, but don't slam moms who choose to breast feed. That's the analogy that I keep coming back to.


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## headtreep (Mar 22, 2013)

Come join us here Rrog and everyone. Please add or suggest anything you'd like but let's try to stay on topic.

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols.html


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## Stoned Drifter (Mar 23, 2013)

im doing a grow using dyna gro and i do a supplemental compost tea. i add the nutes and the next day i add the compost tea. is this any beneficial for me?should i be doing this differently?


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## Cann (Mar 24, 2013)

I wouldn't apply a compost tea every week...and especially not with guano or bone meal. 

also, *truelivingorganics*, you need to edit your signature right now. if a mod sees that you will get banned immediately. there is no advertising on this website. please take your ads elsewhere...

*stoned drifter *- start reading this thread from the start, and you'll see why I wouldn't advocate applying a tea weekly. it will also answer every single question you asked. good luck!

EDIT: dude got banned. perfect


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## trichmasta (Mar 25, 2013)

Are you doing botanical and enzyme brews in between teas Cann?? Coconut water?? My ladies and I are loving the switch to a more aact based regimen, just don't to waste or over do it....

have and irie day microbe people!! <3 soil<3


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## Cann (Mar 29, 2013)

i apply barley seed tea once or twice a week, maybe a corn seed tea once a month, the occasional kelp/ewc tea if i really feel a plant needs it - but usually i just top dress the goodies i want to add and then water to start the decomposition process..

coconut h2o in every other water or so...whatever I feel like i can afford. if i had the $$$, every time i water i would use 1:15 coconut h2o. enzymes cant hurt...

IMO more than two or three ACTs per cycle is overdoing it...keep it simple

if you are doing it right the microbes will be established, no need to supply them externally. 


i will however be applying an ACT to my veggie patch very soon because the soil looks like it is hurting and I want to kick things into gear. i will apply an ACT once, and that is that. maybe in a few months I will consider another depending on how things are looking


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## headtreep (Mar 30, 2013)

I still got to say I get better results when I ACT every other week or even once a week. I'm not talking established soil but more like stuff I just made. I would say after a few runs apply less ACT but it really does seem to speed of the process of decomposition. All my plants are A+ in health and vigor. 

One a side note I got my blumats and I'm gonna put them in a few pots tomorrow (test). I will top dress extra dry amendments (as if I was making ACT) and let the soil do it's thing. I'm still not totally disagreeing with you guys since I personally haven't done a true side by side.


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## esof (Apr 1, 2013)

Cann said:


> This is in regards to water straight out of a coconut, right? What about store bought coconut water?


I've read that coconut water that has been previously extracted from the coconut is most likely pasteurized. If the case is you've bought such coconut water and used at a 1 : 15 ratio with water, were you able to determine any positive effects in your garden?


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## Rising Moon (Apr 1, 2013)

I dig the idea of top dressing dry amendments indoors, 

But wonder how effective they will really be in the cycle you add them...?

Even in an 80+ day cycle, How long until those insolubles become soluble through microbial action?

In thinking about this, I came out with the idea that if I'm going to topdress indoors, during a cycle, it's only going to be with compost, leaf mold or EWC.

I think something to be remembered about no-till, is it dosnt mean you ALWAYS having something growing from your pots.

And mono cropping is never good, no till or not. 

So I've come up with the idea to rotate my no till pots. After I harvest my meds, I rip out the root stump, and put some red wigglers in to eat up the roots, and add my dry amendments. After about a week, I'll re-innoculate with AACT. Then, I'll plant ethier beans, peas, oats or some other "fast" cover crop. Let this grow for just a few weeks, cut them down and leave the plants as mulch/worm food. 

Let this sit for another 2 weeks and its ready to plant.

Pictures when I remember to take them....


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## Cann (Apr 1, 2013)

I know a few folks over on IC who do this with great success...harvest, topdress + worms, sow either clover or another fast crop and then chop the clover after a bit and plant your cannabis. you can trap the worms out of the pot if you want with some of their favorite foods laid on the surface, or you can just leave em in there. this definitely helps keep the rhizosphere active and mycorrhizae alive, not to mention gives the soil a break and replenishes things a bit. wish I had the time to do this currently...

would love to see photos if you got the time


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 4, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> I dig the idea of top dressing dry amendments indoors,
> 
> But wonder how effective they will really be in the cycle you add them...?
> 
> ...


Beans would seem to be ideal, as they pull most of their nitrogen from the air you'd be replenishing your N source pretty well. Among other things.


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 7, 2013)

My Cliff Note on Actively Aerated Compost Tea... 

1. Plants needs?
a. Tailor to Need Vegetative (N), Flower (P) or Def?
b. Fungi or Bacteria dominate verses balanced?

2. AACT Requirements  5 gallon volume
a. H20 non chlorinated, no salts  air bubble min 2hr to dechorlinate
b. Organic Compost and/or Vermicastings - smell test - avoid overheated less beneficial microbes- 4 cups per 5 gal No Manures (e-coli, pathogens)
c. Fungi - *PRE FUNGI before brewing... used dry materials: compost/vermicastings and kelp for tea mix add 3 to 4 TBS per cup Com/Verm.
Moisten to a drop squeezed out. Place in container warm (80 degrees) dark place for 3 days. Look for White Frost-Santa's Beard.
d. Bacteria Microbes - * increase population by adding 2 TBS Molasses (nonsulphured) and or sugar/maple cane, maple syrup or fruit juices.

3. Brewing
a. Pre Fungi  See Section 2c.
b. Day 2 of pre fungi start aerating h2o in a 5 gal bucket (air stone and pump required). See Section 2a
c. Place fungi cover compost in cheesecloth or like it with remaining dry ingredients (kelp, humic & fulvic acids & phosphate rock dust).
Bind cheesecloth so no materials can escape place in 5 gal bucket. See Section 2b.
d. Aerated 24 hours add food for bacterial growth. Maintain room temperature - See Section 2d
e. Aerate another 24 hours before use. Smell test good = aerobic, bad = anaerobic 

4. Applications see section at beginning of this forum thread.

5. Cleaning 
a. clean dried material w/3% H2o2 or 5% baking soda


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## xtrmstev (Apr 7, 2013)

Yes...and Everyone like Show & Tell"...That one Gets put on the "Frosty List"


headtreep said:


> Like having a new camera that's convenient to use.


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## Cann (Apr 8, 2013)

dankswag those are some confusing ass notes....

also if you haven't noticed we've somewhat strayed away from the whole "ACT for nutrients" deal around here...read the last 20 pages of the thread and you'll see what I mean.

the title of this thread is a bit misleading now...i PMed malignant about making the ROLS thread a sticky but no luck so far...not sure if that will ever happen. fingers crossed though...


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## headtreep (Apr 8, 2013)

Cann said:


> dankswag those are some confusing ass notes....
> 
> also if you haven't noticed we've somewhat strayed away from the whole "ACT for nutrients" deal around here...read the last 20 pages of the thread and you'll see what I mean.
> 
> the title of this thread is a bit misleading now...i PMed malignant about making the ROLS thread a sticky but no luck so far...not sure if that will ever happen. fingers crossed though...


Their loss not ours. Honestly I can say we put in a good effort in showing the people a different alternative. Shit I just no tilled me a bunch of male seedlings. Cull and replace with clone love it!!!


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 8, 2013)

Cann said:


> dankswag those are some confusing ass notes....
> 
> also if you haven't noticed we've somewhat strayed away from the whole "ACT for nutrients" deal around here...read the last 20 pages of the thread and you'll see what I mean.
> 
> the title of this thread is a bit misleading now...i PMed malignant about making the ROLS thread a sticky but no luck so far...not sure if that will ever happen. fingers crossed though...


Don't discount things and spreads your opinion like it's fact just because YOU and the two ppl here that worship you "think" otherwise.
Since that discussion 20 pages back I've found literature reiterating what I was thinking, which is that AACTs can be fine tuned and made essentially into "bottle nutes".

AACTs are used for nutritional purposes without a doubt.
There's info in the thread in my sig Dankswag.

You said that it's was pointless to use them(AACT's) more than once and as more than anything other than an inoculation...
You are flat out WRONG.
Period...

You saying it's futile it basically you trolling..


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 8, 2013)

The Compost Tea Brewing Manual...It's a manual about brewing compost tea.
Everything that I've said 20 pages ago is there.


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## Cann (Apr 8, 2013)

_"you can put a tuxedo on a goat but at the end of the day it's still a goat"_


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 8, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Their loss not ours. Honestly I can say we put in a good effort in showing the people a different alternative. Shit I just no tilled me a bunch of male seedlings. Cull and replace with clone love it!!!


Cool to show an alternative but don't discount shit like it doesn't work...
Shouldn't be anyone's loss...Should be everyone's gain.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 8, 2013)

Cann said:


> _"you can put a tuxedo on a goat but at the end of the day it's still a goat"_




Lol and you say the title of this thread is misleading lol. You are just leading ppl away from the title...
It got stickied with the title that it has didn't it?


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## Cann (Apr 8, 2013)

and the _"veganics"_ threads are also stickied. notice that Matt Rize is a mod? hmmmm......

wonder why that is...

not everything that is sticky is good information, or even truth. many in the organics section are based in myth and not in horticulture. 

in fact, i disregard most of the stickies on here. 

done w/ this convo dude...we had the same one 20 pages back. guess i'll just have to stop posting in the compost tea thread if I don't like compost teas....


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 8, 2013)

Everything stickied is meant to be good info.
Meant to help ppl...
Which is why it gets sticked..
You don't ask them to sticky shit lol they just do it when one of the mods feel it's deserving.
And you would disregard all the stickies since you're so busy trying to get one.
Or even make this thread yours....

You say the title of this thread *has become* misleading. It's because of you and your couple manned army..
Or your other personalites...

STOP discouting stuff that works damn.
Just because you don't do it doesn't mean it's not right..

Someone tries to share and you tell them "you guys" have done away with AACTs as nutes....
C'mon. 

That last sentence of yours is *SPOT ON*!

*guess i'll just have to stop posting in the compost tea thread if I don't like compost teas.... 

*Make a thread as to why compost teas are useless..*
And TROLL ON *


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## headtreep (Apr 8, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Cool to show an alternative but don't discount shit like it doesn't work...
> Shouldn't be anyone's loss...Should be everyone's gain.


WTF did I do homie? lol I use ACT too. Look back at my posts and I talk highly about them. Infact I'm brewing one now dickface lol. hehe

Smoke a bowl.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 8, 2013)

No harm meant to be done boss..I apologize if you took it the wrong way...

Dude saying AACTs use is futile is misinfo. That's all

Bout to roll up right now!


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## headtreep (Apr 8, 2013)

I love compost tea!!!!!









I just ACTED this bitch. She will bring me good things.


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## Cann (Apr 8, 2013)

_if it's so damn great then why isn't it being used by every organic vegetable farmer across the world? where is it's presence in true horticulture? _

these are the questions I ask myself. 

also, _which thread will I troll next?

_hmmmmmm....


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## headtreep (Apr 8, 2013)

But am starting to see where these guys say they don't need to use ACT often. Check this, I have another room that I don't hang out in as much that I don't ACT because it's too much of a pain. I have blumats with these ones and just a real nice soil with 2 inches of vermicompost. My results are looking the same as the ones I hit with ACT often. hmmm.........


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 8, 2013)

Cann said:


> _if it's so damn great then why isn't it being used by every organic vegetable farmer across the world? where is it's presence in true horticulture? _
> 
> these are the questions I ask myself.
> 
> ...


It's that damn great bro! And is being used in gardens AROUND THE WORLD. C'mon man.


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## headtreep (Apr 8, 2013)

One thing I do notice is my some of my plants that have blumats are too far for me to apply ACT often. They look just as healthy as my other ones. My soil is brand new and I didn't even cook it lol.


cook= let sit

Edit: I personally don't have enough data to discount ACT, as ever since I ever used it improved things ten fold. I used as often as every other watering.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 8, 2013)

headtreep said:


> But am starting to see where these guys say they don't need to use ACT often. Check this, I have another room that I don't hang out in as much that I don't ACT because it's too much of a pain. I have blumats with these ones and just a real nice soil with 2 inches of vermicompost. My results are looking the same as the ones I hit with ACT often. hmmm.........


That's wassup man! I'm the same as well as a gang on other ppl on here.
And a lot of us don't have the microscopes and equipment neccessary to see what we're brewing, and be able to analyze the contents of our teas further...
So what's to say that each time we're brewing, we use the optimum ratios and achieve optimum results??
I can't say for sure...Prob like the majority of us...
And with that said, I experiment more and more based on observation...
Take note of what works and what doesn't and move on..

So for those guys getting the same results using and not using, what's to say they're brewing effective teas at all times??
I know I don't...I throw them out without thinking twice and go water only sometimes, based on the color and smell of the tea..
But I know guys on here who are using them and are blowing it away....As well as a lot of guys on Grasscity which is were I started browsing forums...
So it works both ways ya know?

It's all on you...


After that last convo I had on here about dude telling me that using AACTs are pointless,
I went back to hunt for info and I found what I was looking for.

I posted the info in one of the last couple pages of the Fox Farm Soil thread.
The gist of everything tho was that by caring selective your ingredients, you can without a doubt brew AACTs for nutritional benefit.

When you brew an AACT, the microbes within can make things "plant ready", just as they do in the soil.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 8, 2013)

headtreep said:


> One thing I do notice is my some of my plants that have blumats are too far for me to apply ACT often. They look just as healthy as my other ones. My soil is brand new and I didn't even cook it lol.
> 
> 
> cook= let sit
> ...



And basically bro....I look at it like this...
At home, with our DIY brewers and everything else involved, there's so much room for human error that it's not possible to say that we're brewing the best tea when can each time..It's "a to each his own" type thing. 
The more we learn and share, the more we can tweak things..Rather than nay-saying.

I also know that you're recycling your soil too, so you can't go wrong using AACTs...
Bacterially dominant during veg and fungally dominant during flower. Balance them and use them whenever.
It's all pro-life.
We ALL know that over time soil gets better when you take care of it..

I can't think of a reason why applying AACTs would be detrimental when done the right way, and I can't see how and why it wouldn't work EVERYTIME you use one.
Not worried about over crowding my soil with microbes tho.
That's was a possibility 20 pages ago because I hadn't thought of it before, but not today as I've learned that's not gonna be the case.

Just takes a little care.

Here really soon I'll start posting more here...With my next run at the end of May.
I'll use an AACT every watering, and AACT sometimes, and an AACT not at all with three of the same clones, under the same conditions!

& I will be sure to share!


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## Cann (Apr 8, 2013)

why not just topdress? its the same nutrient payload. thats what I don't get. 

no need to rush the microbes into doing something in ~24 hrs that they would do over the course of a few weeks in the soil. unless your plant is extremely sick/in need, in which case an ACT can help. like I said, I use ACTs once or twice a cycle...more of a microbe establishment technique than anything else. 

headtreep let us know if you ever see a difference between the two rooms. I am curious.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 8, 2013)

Topdress doesn't work right away. It works over a period of time.

For ppl who aren't no-till, it's not the same.
And why not rush the microbes to do something if we can?
Faster is better right?! You seen the AT&T commercials lol?!?

I'm thinking of being able to take advantage of the fact that I've got the best buffer available at my disposal.

But hey, its all good that you believe what you do...Can't knock you for it, but you can't discount what I do...Or shun someone else when they share something and then say they thread title is misleading lol. No it is not.
Just seems that way lately!

But thanks for the info regarding the aloe, barley seed, and comfrey and nettles info in the mean times!

You say AACTs once or twice and any more is pointless. I say careful AACT use at all times is warranted!
Agree to disagree sir.


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## headtreep (Apr 8, 2013)

@ the both of youse and everyone else. I'll let those pots with the blumats just hang with getting water and no ACT. We will see what up. Would love some more free time 

Besides that I like everyone here and enjoy everyones opinion even though I'm always right lol..


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 8, 2013)

Nice lol! And I wish I could say the same man...But I love it here on RIU nonetheless


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 10, 2013)

You know you're AACT brew is going well when it smells nice and earthy in the end(although kelp and fish hydro give off a fishy twang but not too bad), and it's much darker than when you started it! I'm talking the color of a VERY RICH SOIL!

#FACT

Brew Tea. Use Tea.


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## headtreep (Apr 10, 2013)

My tea smells fishy at first but then smells like sweet earth and is frothy like Guinness.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 10, 2013)

Mine usually does to boss! I feel like it's the kelp meal that gives it the hint, and if you use fish hydro it's even stronger.
And I feel like the molasses give it the sweet smell which is a duh lol! 

But once bro, I overdosed on molasses trying to use it as more than a carb in the tea...And the smell was EXTRA sweet to the point that is was STANK! Lol But being for whatever damn reason I used the tea anyways and screwed things up for a solid week....
Had to bring my girls back by brewing balanced teas for the following weeks rather than mixing it up like i'd been..

But in the process I learned that there is still Sulphur in "unsulphured" Molasses...The Unsulphured part of it refers to the processing, so when you over do it you can throw a lot of things out of whack! I was just experimenting tho, and I failed lol...I feel like if you use too large a concentration of Molasses, it'll end up being solubilized in the teas...What do you think??

But Im just giving a heads up that if you ever brew a tea that smells too sweet or just off in the slightest, I wouldn't use it! Just dump it and brew again!

Better to be safe than sorry right?!


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## Cann (Apr 10, 2013)

#omgcompostteas!!!!


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 10, 2013)

Cann said:


> #omgcompostteas!!!!



*#OMGYESSSSS!!!*

The organic solution to the bottled nutrient!
The DIY nute machine!
The MICROBINATER!!!!!!!
Yesss!!!

*The AACT* 

#HELLSYES!


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## trichome fiend (Apr 10, 2013)

Cann said:


> and the _"veganics"_ threads are also stickied. notice that Matt Rize is a mod? hmmmm......
> 
> wonder why that is...
> 
> ...


...the proof is in the puddin' 
[youtube]Uj4FL0u1wvg[/youtube]


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## Rrog (Apr 11, 2013)

That's super-cool Fiend! However, The same nutes are being delivered with a VC top dressing, just not immediate. With soil, unless there's a problem, there would be no need for speed. But that's an old record of mine.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 11, 2013)

Seen the new AT&T commercials right?! Faster is better. It's not that complicated!


This thread is about gardening with compost teas, and you guys keep mentioning top dressing rather than using the compost tea..

Nice share in regards to the video!


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## Rrog (Apr 11, 2013)

There's nothing wrong with ACT per say. Just not needed. But we all do a lot of things that are not needed. No harm, no foul. 

I just drop these little comments so that the anonymous readers out there don't get the impression that ACT is a requirement.


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## headtreep (Apr 11, 2013)

I make use ACT for a few reasons. I love it to kick start seedlings and since I'm a pheno hunter, I'm always playing with new gear. I also like use it as a sort of IPM and since I add a tad bit of kelp meal I love to use it to foliar. My leaves are very green 

I do have old soil in a bin that I like to feed ACT to and some new stuff that I keep moist with ACT. I still for now will have ACT around until I see that it's no longer needed. If anyone has any issues with my plants or tips please let me know.


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## Rrog (Apr 11, 2013)

All of that makes great sense headtreep. ACT has great stuff in it.


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 11, 2013)

Cann said:


> why not just topdress? its the same nutrient payload. thats what I don't get.
> 
> no need to rush the microbes into doing something in ~24 hrs that they would do over the course of a few weeks in the soil. unless your plant is extremely sick/in need, in which case an ACT can help. like I said, I use ACTs once or twice a cycle...more of a microbe establishment technique than anything else.
> 
> headtreep let us know if you ever see a difference between the two rooms. I am curious.


I think the assumption here is that one way is better then the other, which is farthest from the truth. When something starts to go sideways nutrient wise, one must ACT pardon the pun, who want's to subject their plant's health to a couple of weeks for the top dressing and it microbes to work their way through. I see ACT as a quick boost to address a nutrient situation and to provide additional nutrients to push the edge. Where as the soil is the entree and a top dressing seconds, ACT is like having a juice man juicer for instantaneous boost of readily absorb-able nutrition with no bad after effects. Just MHO... didn't realize I walked right into a turf war (pardon the pun again) as to whose method works best or doesn't. I believe each method is viable and sustainable for maintenance and growth. And since you can't really over ACT except the over watering part, I would say combo it, use the top dress with super soil and boost and address deficiencies with ACT.

So I am calling this procedure TOP ACT!


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## Rrog (Apr 11, 2013)

I don't disagree at all. My strategy in many things in life is to strip things down to the basics. Only do things that make a big difference, and focus less on things that may or may not provide a small improvement. A lot of precious waking hours can be lost chasing little things. So if I can avoid processes and devices, then that's my choice. 

I wouldn't blend a fruit that I could eat whole, but there's sure nothing wrong with a smoothie!


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 11, 2013)

Rrog said:


> There's nothing wrong with ACT per say. Just not needed. But we all do a lot of things that are not needed. No harm, no foul.
> 
> I just drop these little comments so that the anonymous readers out there don't get the impression that ACT is a requirement.


Your drop these little comments for no reason...It's just confusing. Of course you don't need AACT. You don't need aloe or barely as a foliar either..But still you discuss it because you do it. Drop all the knowledge. Don't skew it from your POV. Drop facts.

And of course you don't need AACTs but it's proven that we(organic growers) have our own DIY solution for the bottle nutrient.
I've got literature suggesting that it's just that and you can read it if you like. It's posted right here on RIU. I'll bring everything that I have regarding the AACT over to this thread when I get a minute.

Look at what happens when you use them....
Of course you don't need and AACT, but it obviously helps.
Just takes time and fine tuning like everything else


----------



## Rrog (Apr 11, 2013)

As I said, I just drop these little comments so that the anonymous readers out there don't get the impression that ACT is a requirement. If I personally thought it would help, I would use it. The growers that I respect most on this planet don't use ACT, but there's nothing wrong if they did.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0929139310001332

www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda chalker-scott/horticultural myths_files/Myths/Compost tea 3rd time.pdf

Some perspective from others on this.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 11, 2013)

headtreep said:


> I make use ACT for a few reasons. I love it to kick start seedlings and since I'm a pheno hunter, I'm always playing with new gear. I also like use it as a sort of IPM and since I add a tad bit of kelp meal I love to use it to foliar. My leaves are very green
> 
> I do have old soil in a bin that I like to feed ACT to and some new stuff that I keep moist with ACT. I still for now will have ACT around until I see that it's no longer needed. If anyone has any issues with my plants or tips please let me know.


Nice 

I brew AACTs to feed the plants. In my mind, I knew it was sure even when they said it wasn't a few months ago or something....
This based on just everything I've learned as well as some observation..When I got I literature....That calm breeze came over me just confirming that I'm headed the right way, and that I just gotta keep learning and diggin for info.

In AACTs, when you add things like Bat Guano and Molasses and Kelp Meal and Neptunes Harvest(Fish hydro), things DO without a DOUBT get solubilized. So why not take advantage of the best buffer available?

I'm thinking more along the lines of pushing to the limit with the AACTs....Potentially growing a more vigorous and rewarding plant


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 11, 2013)

Rrog said:


> As I said, I just drop these little comments so that the anonymous readers out there don't get the impression that ACT is a requirement. If I personally thought it would help, I would use it. The growers that I respect most on this planet don't use ACT, but there's nothing wrong if they did.


Then drop the comments about everything that's not a requirement. Don't be biased. This isn't the place for that.
And I doubt anyone joined RIU to earn your respect lol. Just drop the knowledge. 
I knew a few brilliant growers that you wouldn't respect lol but they wouldn't give one bro


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 11, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> I think the assumption here is that one way is better then the other, which is farthest from the truth. When something starts to go sideways nutrient wise, one must ACT pardon the pun, who want's to subject their plant's health to a couple of weeks for the top dressing and it microbes to work their way through. I see ACT as a quick boost to address a nutrient situation and to provide additional nutrients to push the edge. Where as the soil is the entree and a top dressing seconds, ACT is like having a juice man juicer for instantaneous boost of readily absorb-able nutrition with no bad after effects. Just MHO... didn't realize I walked right into a turf war (pardon the pun again) as to whose method works best or doesn't. I believe each method is viable and sustainable for maintenance and growth. And since you can't really over ACT except the over watering part, I would say combo it, use the top dress with super soil and boost and address deficiencies with ACT.
> 
> So I am calling this procedure TOP ACT!


No turf war boss! Sorry for my tone. I need to *TURN IT WAYYYYYYY DOWN*!

And it's not about whose method works best...You interpreted that wrong..
It's about saying something is pointless and spreading that message around, when that's not the case.

This threads title is Soil Food Web Gardening WITH COMPOST TEAS lol.

Not Soil Food Wed Gardening WITHOUT COMPOST TEAS BECAUSE THEY'RE POINTLESS! haha

The more I learn about them(AACT) the more I realize I have to AACT! lol the puns dont really work with the right terminology!


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 11, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I don't disagree at all. My strategy in many things in life is to strip things down to the basics. Only do things that make a big difference, and focus less on things that may or may not provide a small improvement. A lot of precious waking hours can be lost chasing little things. So if I can avoid processes and devices, then that's my choice.
> 
> I wouldn't blend a fruit that I could eat whole, but there's sure nothing wrong with a smoothie!


Apple juice is one of my favs lol! Always has been! But I never really had a thing for Apples ....

They just never hit the sweet spot for me...But hey, to each his own right?!

Knowledge IS power.


----------



## Rrog (Apr 11, 2013)

One thing is clear: It's very possible to have very civil discussions about ACT!


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 11, 2013)

Haha it's either that or don't mention them at all apparently..


----------



## Rrog (Apr 11, 2013)

I dig your new avatar S420!


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 11, 2013)

But hey, you're obviously pretty knowledgable and I feel like I know a good bit too, so I'm not here to fight or flame you about what you said and didn't say...This isn't the place for that too lol. I love it here too much to get banned for bad behavior!

It's just that I feel the polar opposite of you regarding AACTs. And the more I learn, the more I feel it's gonna go that way!
But lets just say to each his own and call it a day because I don't think we can have a civil discussion regarding the AACT lol


----------



## Rrog (Apr 11, 2013)

Sorry- My post was essentially saying we can discuss ACT without fists. That what I meant. Everyone is being nice and civil. Yaaay!


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 11, 2013)

Haha and thanks bro! We need all growers to move to Colorado and form a Union lol.

Flex some muscle man! Rally for months on out showing the benefits of our work, especially the effects of oil on cancer!

For the fed not to look away anymore.


----------



## xtrmstev (Apr 11, 2013)

And on that Note...I get a little stressed when the "he said she said" starts...bummer! On a side Note, Rrog and headteep your Avatars are so much a like...I thought Rrog was Talking to His Self for a Min. I hope Everbody the best in "What Ever" they choose...lots of Great Info to choose from. Relax and Enjoy the Ride!


Rrog said:


> One thing is clear: It's very possible to have very civil discussions about ACT!


----------



## kushking42 (Apr 11, 2013)

if your soil is dialed and living then Rrog makes a great point. especially in no til. i think if your constantly disrupting things by re-amending and digging around in your soil then aact is probably more useful


----------



## Cann (Apr 11, 2013)

very well said KK. that is the essence of what we are trying to say. use ACT as a tool when things aren't perfectly dialed. it is very good in those situations.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 11, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> if your soil is dialed and living then Rrog makes a great point. especially in no til. i think if your constantly disrupting things by re-amending and digging around in your soil then aact is probably more useful


Bump the other response! Deleted it. I'll just say cool! I agree to disagree with you too!
Simply because I don't think a soil has to be no-till to be dialed in


----------



## DANKSWAG (Apr 11, 2013)

headtreep said:


> I make use ACT for a few reasons. I love it to kick start seedlings and since I'm a pheno hunter, I'm always playing with new gear. I also like use it as a sort of IPM and since I add a tad bit of kelp meal I love to use it to foliar. My leaves are very green
> 
> I do have old soil in a bin that I like to feed ACT to and some new stuff that I keep moist with ACT. I still for now will have ACT around until I see that it's no longer needed. If anyone has any issues with my plants or tips please let me know.


Such a good point, come to think of it if the Noobs out there that are killing their seedlings by overfeeding with too rich of soil or chem nutes, would just take note and see a seedling in the proper soil with a nice drink of an AACT will thrive while they are busy just getting theirs to survive. Not to mention aiding in many other things... If we can just save one poor seedling from overfeeding it will be worth every post I can blog supporting AACT!


----------



## puffntuff (Apr 12, 2013)

Thinking about brewing a tea. This looks like it will work for me anyways.
Add 1 cup to 8 gallons of compost tea. I use bat guano, earthworm casting and this Gardentone as the main microbe colonizer. Then to make the sweetest of teas, get a fairly powerful aquarium pump with a bi or tri splitter and the little round stone aerators, and then along with the Gardentone feeding ingredients add several ounces of non-sulfured molasses. The living microbes introduced to the water feed on the sugars in molasses and the gardentone. Some pour just the compost ingredients (earthworm castings, bat guano) into a sock, stockings etc. to keep the tea more clear for later spraying so the sprayer never gets clogged up with debris, but I pour everything into the water and stir and agitate several times daily even with constant aeration. Then I strain it out as I pour into my sprayer. This makes the tea more potent as ALL the microbes are released instead of trapped in a sock. Brew 48 hours minimum, and add more molasses if brewed much more then that. Use immediately (actually a several hour window exists as microbes will die within several hours and the tea will begin to smell foul. Spray plants completely, poke holes all around plants prior to spraying. Pour tea into the holes.***A very important note about the water you use....
Call your water service like I did and ask what treatment process they use to clean the water where you live.
Chlorine and Cloramide (sp) is widely used...
Aerate the water in your container for several hours up to eight before any ingredients are added...Just the small amounts of chlorine in public tap water is enough to kill the very microbes you hope to colonize and grow.
Capture all the rain water you can for garden - under downspouts, off roof etc...
Fill many large containers with your tap water and allow them to sit in the sun or just outdoors for 24 plus hours, agitate several times daily to help evaporate the chlorine before watering your microbe filled compost tea'd garden.
Gardentone is absolutely the best compost tea additive, and molasses is a food that invigorates the microbial multipliers and air keeps it alive....if you can keep the tea in the 70 to 85 F range it will become tea more quickly....Not too warm....85 to 90 is top needed....enjoy the results....


----------



## GreenSanta (Apr 12, 2013)

Rrog said:


> There's nothing wrong with ACT per say. Just not needed. But we all do a lot of things that are not needed. No harm, no foul.
> 
> I just drop these little comments so that the anonymous readers out there don't get the impression that ACT is a requirement.


how about blackstrap molasses, needed? I plan on experimenting with no-till pretty soon, thanks.


----------



## Rrog (Apr 12, 2013)

Some of the brewers here might want to chime in, but (cane) molasses is some mighty fine stuff. Someone here can recommend a good recipe, I'm sure.


----------



## GreenSanta (Apr 13, 2013)

rrog, do you think that once a healthy population of microbes and bacteria are in the soil, ACT is no longer needed, but the odd application of blackstrap molasses is very useful to keep the healthy population?


----------



## Rrog (Apr 15, 2013)

Close. I (and many others whose opinions and results I respect) feel that once a soil is up and running and established the soil is profoundly alive with the microbiological configuration the plant wants. I just top-dress after that and use simple, fast bubbled Botanical teas, but not ACT (AACT). I view the ACT as an extra step. 

Surely there's no growing downside that I'm aware of using ACT. I'm just lazy and if there's no bang for the buck, I'll pass.


----------



## Rising Moon (Apr 15, 2013)

I just finished an experiment where I grew two plants in JUST pro mix, and only fed with herbally enhanced compost teas...

Over-all, especially for fast cycles, I like what I saw, but it was sorta a pain to make teas all the time...

I will be trying the same experiment, same strains, but a different medium mix, (coco/ewc/perlite).

But now I know where my teas are at, and feel fairly confident that I know what I am talking about when I choose the botanical herbs, and when to use them.



Here is a pic of some of the finished product...

(OG Kush x UK Cheese)


----------



## Rrog (Apr 15, 2013)

Sparkly goodness!


----------



## Rising Moon (Apr 15, 2013)

[video=youtube;2g6YjZUwlg4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g6YjZUwlg4&amp;list=UU5xbo9BKi9N5N1uaHtg3ukA&amp; index=10[/video]


----------



## Rising Moon (Apr 15, 2013)

[video=youtube;zfKMjfPr8dk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfKMjfPr8dk[/video]


----------



## st0wandgrow (Apr 15, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> rrog, do you think that once a healthy population of microbes and bacteria are in the soil, ACT is no longer needed, but the odd application of blackstrap molasses is very useful to keep the healthy population?


Santa, I'm no expert on this so I'll defer to folks like Rrog, but the way I understand it is that an ACT is essentially just a means of multiplying the microorganisms that are present in your compost. Given that, it stands to reason that you would reach a certain point in the plants life cycle where adding more micros to the mix is pointless. To me, the earlier the better.

I'm mixing a batch of amended soil up tomorrow. I'm going to split the batch in to two, and let them both sit for around a month. One batch I'm planning on periodically wetting down with an ACT throughout the month with the intentions of building a vibrant micro herd way before a plant ever sees that soil. The other batch will not be exposed to an ACT until I have plants in them vegging. I don't know if I will notice any significant differences, but I will take notes/pics none the less and let you know how things turn out.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Apr 15, 2013)

Rising Moon, that ganja looks spectacular!

Nicely done


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

"*People who dont understand soil biology will say that bacteria are always present, at more or less the same
numbers. But this is an error based on the methods that have been used.* The classical medical way of
looking at disease-causing organisms was applied to soil, and inappropriate conclusions made. Plate
count methods assess mainly spores, which are dormant stages of some, but not all, organisms. Spores
arent affected as much as active organisms are by toxic chemicals or tillage. Plate media miss 99.99% or
more of the actual species growing and being active in soil. As a result, people relying on plate methods
have lead others to extremely mis-informed decisions." (Ingham 2)




























"*Compost contains many years worth of any nutrient. As long as the biology remains un-compromised by
toxic chemical additions, the organisms will cycle those nutrients into plant-available forms. This strongly
suggests that compost is a fertilizer; an organic fertilizer. Compost tea will contain many, but not all, of the
nutrients that were in the compost. Compost quality is critical to understand, in order that we can
maximize nutrient concentrations in the tea. Understanding the role of the organisms is all important,
therefore.*

Natural systems dont require additions of inorganic, soluble (and thus very leachable) forms of nutrients to
maintain productivity. The most productive systems on this planet are systems which do not have, and
have not ever had, inorganic fertilizer applied.

If we want clean water, we have to get the biology back in our soils. If we want to grow and harvest crops,
we have to build soil and fertility with time, not destroy it. The only way to reach these endpoints is to
improve the life in the soil." (Ingham 10)





















































The Compost Tea Manual - How To Use Compost Tea. *UP NEXT*


----------



## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

You are quoting a very poor source. Within the scientific community she is considered a hack scientist, I'm afraid.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

"*Compost teas, correctly made and applied, improve the life in the soil and on plant surfaces. With time and
continued use, compost and compost tea of a quality designed to improve the set of organisms relative to
the plant species desired, will increase the number of individuals and the species diversity of the
communities of leaf, stem, flower, seed-surface and soil microorganisms, and will select against disease-
causing or pest organisms.*" (Ingham 23)


























"*Use compost or compost tea to do the job of putting back
in the biology as well as some foods.*"(Ingham 29)


















The Compost Tea Manual - Factors Affecting Compst Tea Quality - Next


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

Rrog said:


> You are quoting a very poor source. Within the scientific community she is considered a hack scientist, I'm afraid.


This don't apply to you bro. Why comment?
She had a Phd. The videos you posted were from a guy that learned via trial and error...

edit- & NONE of this I did for you bro...None of it pertains to you.


*You said...."I (and many others whose opinions and results I respect) feel that once a soil is up and running and established the soil is profoundly alive with the microbiological configuration the plant wants. I just top-dress after that and use simple, fast bubbled Botanical teas, but not ACT (AACT). I view the ACT as an extra step. 

Surely there's no growing downside that I'm aware of using ACT. I'm just lazy and if there's no bang for the buck, I'll pass. *"

And I'm fine with that! To each each his own!

Like I'm sure all the other growers that use ACT or AACT are. 

Ps, An ACT and an AACT are the same *EXACT* thing. Just to no sound confusing!

There's *NO* difference between an actively aerated compost tea, and an aerated compost tea. It's all just terminology.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

"*Compost tea can be inconsistent from batch to batch, but this variability is actually relatively easy to
control. When making tea, test the tea periodically to make sure the set of organisms in the tea is
maintained and no unexpected problems occur to harm extraction and growth of the organisms.*"(Ingham 34)

















Foam. "*The presence of foam on the surface of tea is considered a positive sign, but just means there are
free proteins, amino acids or carbohydrates present. This can occur as the result of adding fish hydrolysate,
certain organic acids or carbohydrates. If worm compost was used, excessive foam suggests a few
earthworms were in the compost and their dead bodies are providing this source of protein/carbohydrate.
Excess protein or amino acids should not occur if bacteria are growing well, although dead worms may
continue to release proteinaceous materials throughout the brewing cycle. Foam can be suppressed by using
organic surfactants, such as yucca or vegetable oil (not olive or canola oil!). Dont use commercial de-
foamers  every single one we have tested kills the organisms in the tea*".(Ingham 3











Next up: The Compost Tea Manual - Brewing Methods And Machines


----------



## headtreep (Apr 16, 2013)

"and will select against disease-
causing or pest organisms" Awesome that coincides with what I've mentioned before as an IPM. Love my compost foliars but I do hope I'm not wasting my time. I'm not a scientist per say nor do I have a PHD.


----------



## Rising Moon (Apr 16, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> This don't apply to you bro. Why comment?
> She had a Phd. The videos you posted were from a guy that learned via trial and error...


That was me posting the vids...

Jeff Popper (the guy in the videos) is a real deal FARMER, not a scientist, and he never claimed to be...

I know a girl with a PHD in ag that can barely grow a competent garden, let alone contribute anything worth while to the actual professionals...


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> That was me posting the vids...
> 
> Jeff Popper (the guy in the videos) is a real deal FARMER, not a scientist, and he never claimed to be...
> 
> I know a girl with a PHD in ag that can barely grow a competent garden, let alone contribute anything worth while to the actual professionals...


My bad RM, I thought that the other guy posted that...
Sorry...

But you get the gist of what I mean...
And yeah not every book smart individual retains the goods I know, but it takes at least 7 years studying to obtain a Phd.
During that time, I sure she went thru a lot of trial and error...

And I don't care that someone says they're opinion isn't respected in the community...She's got a Phd. She's published...
I'm just dropping the info so that it's available for ppl to take from it what they can and will..
I never been someone to not believe something, or to not "like" someone just because someone else didn't...

& Life is one big lesson of trial and error


----------



## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

I like peer reviewed data. If something works well commercially, there's a buzz within the industry and the industry trade rags, and studies will ensue. Any peer-reviewed lab studies conducted on ACT are few and not favorable. 

Again, all this means is that the brewing is an extra step that commercial farmers don't see a value in. Doesn't mean it's bad. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it if you enjoy it.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

You like peer reviewed data, but discount data coming from a published farmer with a Phd..
Suit yourself..To each his own.

"*Any peer-reviewed lab studies conducted on ACT are few and not favorable. " - Not a fact.
Not even CLOSE. Yet you say it like is CONCRETE...

And again, your opinion is just that....YOUR opinion. And we all aren't "commercial farmers".
A lot of of closet gardeners..Who don't use "no-till"...We transplant, and we do so a few times..

And we couldn't POSSIBLY see things more different than we currently do!
I'm talking POLAR opposites...Can't disagree about something any more than I disagree with you lol but hey to each his own right?!
*
And you speak of making an AACT like it's hard work lol. No it's not. It takes 2 minutes to get a brew started...After that you wait.

But make another thread as to why you don't need to use AACTs lol.
Look at the title of this one man...
I see you already made a no till thread or there is one already made!
I don't post there bcuz I don't use the "no till" style...

Why post here if you don't garden with compost teas?


----------



## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

I post because you post. Pretty simple. If you throw out the info you had better be prepared to discuss it. To be clear, I am not looking to convince you of anything. I am simply offering some scientific balance to your assertions.

BTW peer reviewed means someone else from that scientific community reviewed or re-created the data. That hasn't happened. So you are propagating info that has no peer review.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0929139310001332

www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda chalker-scott/horticultural myths_files/Myths/Compost tea 3rd time.pdf


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

You're posting peer reveiwed articles....
Read them over and quote what you find significant.

& Ask me a question if you want to discuss something because i'm ready.
I'm not looking to convince you either bro. You do your thing and I do mine.

& lastly, what was I to take from those two articles?

Ps I didnt find either of those relevant to anything I just posted.
EM and why ACTs aren't good for diease prevention? what

Theres


----------



## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

What they are saying is refuting much of Ingham's assertions. Disease suppression was one of the bullet points you tossed out there. That's been proven wrong, other than the disease suppression from the worm castings itself. Making a tea did squat for disease, yet she still professes these miracles and you kindly spread it.

Again- no harm in ACT at all.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

Apples Apple scab No Michigan State University


Wine grapes Phomopsis No Cornell University 
 Downy mildew No 
 Black rot No 
 Potato leafhopper No 
 European red mite No 
Wine grapes Powdery mildew Some Penn State 
(greenhouse) Botrytis Some 
Wine grapes Powdery mildew No Penn State 
 (field) 

Turf grass Brown patch No Rutgers University 

(An additional focus of published compost tea resear
ch is the discovery of human pathogens, such as 
E. 
coli
, in some ACTs. Though discussion of the topi
c is beyond the scope of this column, fecal 
contamination of compost teas is a health issue of
 serious concern to the EPA and other agencies.) 

This represents the current state of university sci
ence behind the efficacy of aerated compost tea in 
disease control. Will these results be published in th
e peer-reviewed scientific literature? One hopes so, 
but the reality is that many scientists don&#8217;t publish &#8220;n
egative&#8221; results and instead move on to other more 
promising areas of research. This is unfortunate 
as the science behind compost tea is very young and 
requires, as all researchers agree, substantial research
 before the hypothesis of disease control can be 
supported. 

What do compost tea producers say about these negative r
esults? Often, there is criticism of tea microbial 
content, the tea brewing process, the applicati
on process, weather conditions, other environmental 
stresses, etc. &#8211; in other words, the fault is not w
ith the product. However, the overwhelming lack of 
positive results in university ACT studies suggests that th
e hypothesis might be in error and need to be 
revised. And even if the criticisms were justified, 
then how realistic can such a technology be for the 
typical home- or business owner who wants to make and apply their own compost tea? 

This is the real problem I see in the world of com
post tea, which is the selling of a product whose use is 
based on faith rather than science. As one proponent 
states, &#8220;There is no doubt in my mind that compost 
tea has already proven to be beneficial to agriculture.&#8221; Individuals with this mind-set are not open to 
having their beliefs challenged by scientists or anyone
 else. However, buying expensive &#8220;tea brewers&#8221;, 
purchasing ready made &#8220;tea&#8221; at several dollars a ga
llon, or paying a company to apply ACT in the 
absence of objective data sounds like 
snake oil rather than science. 


There are thousands of web sites with glowing anecdot
al praise for compost tea used as a foliar spray. 
What seems to be missing are stories from the other side &#8211; from those business and home owners who 
haven&#8217;t seen differences in disease control or have even
 noted increased incidence and severity of disease. 
In the interest of a fair and balanced discussion, 
I am developing a web page for reporting these anecdotes 
as they are submitted to me. Feel free to send them in &#8211; you can remain anonymous if you wish. 

There is no scientific evidence for ACT di
sease control on turf or landscape materials
. Since ACT is not 
registered by the EPA as a pesticide, it is illegal to
 recommend its use as one, or to apply it as such to 
another person&#8217;s landscape. Though some commercial s
ites disclose this regulatory fact, they also coyly 
include anecdotal information extolling the disease-suppressing properties of their product. Laundering 
product information to get around federal pesticide re
gulations is unethical. Misrepresentation of the 
science behind compost tea represents, at best, landscape
 management decisions based on faith rather than 
science. At worst, it suggests corporate profits at
 the expense of well-meaning but gullible consumers.
 


This bit....Disease suppression is irrelevant.
No one here is pouring up AACTs for disease suppression.
There's Neem amongst other things for that.

I only posted everything to keep the text whole. 
Trying not to be subjective and give only parts that support what I'm saying.
But that's really irrelvant.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

And this closing statment


The Bottom Line


&#8226;

Aerated compost tea use for disease control c
ontinues to lack scientific credentials 
&#8226;

There is no documented science supporting th
e use of ACT on turf and landscape materials 
&#8226;

ACT is not registered as a pesticide and cannot
 legally be recommended or applied as one 
&#8226;

ACTs have been demonstrated to
 harbor human pathogens, including 
E. coli

&#8226;

There is a rapidly growing, compost tea industry that continues to downplay the lack of reputable 
science behind the product 
&#8226;

Uses of products or processes for landscape mana
gement should be based on objective plant and 
soil science, not blind faith or commercial gain 

They say there no scientific evidence because it hasn't been studied on turf and landscape materials...

Bro that's propaganda.


----------



## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

Bottom line- ACT has been reviewed for commercial farming value, where it was determined it has none. In other words, educated business people (farmers) have found no data to justify using ACT. So you have stoners using it and a couple of pumpkin growers. That says it all right there.

On the other hand, you'll find commercial growers that all find value in compost, amendments, etc. Adding compost to a bubbler doesn't change the compost, so it's looked at as redundant.


----------



## Progressive Gatherings (Apr 16, 2013)

I needed to thank you for this good read!! I certainly enjoyed every bit of it.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

* "Bottom line- ACT has been reviewed for commercial farming value, where it was determined it has none. In other words, educated business people (farmers) have found no data to justify using ACT. So you have stoners using it and a couple of pumpkin growers. That says it all right there."
Bottom line - ACT has been reviewed. It's all just one BIG PONZI SCHEME! THEY DO NOT WORK!
It's history...Put it in your pipe and smoke it.
Science has already proven them futile in however many studies it took the prove that, so ppl just gave up working towards any kind of progress and wrote them off as the "myths" they were...
They OBVIOUSLY don't do a thing for our plants, but for some reason, ppl continue to use them believing that they're actually doing something...Hmmm...They all ignorant. Oh well.

^^^That's how you sound me...But that's alright by me. Do your thing brother.

On the other hand, you'll find commercial growers that all find value in compost, amendments, etc. Adding compost to a bubbler doesn't change the compost, so it's looked at as redundant. 

^^^^...........<sighs>.

Commercial grower this...Commercial grower that...I'm not commercial growing.
You obviously are set in your ways which is cool. Do you bossman.

I've put a compost in a bubbler and watched what happens over the 18-24hr period, and hey, I'll just say I disagree as I've got literature from which I've learned otherwise. Redundant is a redundant word to use atm as well...
Like I said, I've got literature suggesting otherwise and am willing to help and share with anyone wondering.

BUT..... I did start brewing yesterday @ 6, so it's about time for me to go pour up lol!
I'll be back with the rest of the manual too!

Stay tuned 


​ 
*


----------



## sullivan666 (Apr 16, 2013)

I started out using ACT's but have since lessened them significantly. Currently, I'm top dressing and using herbal/enzyme teas and am having great results. 

More importantly though, I recommend anyone who is serious about organic farming read this book: http://www.onestrawrevolution.net/One_Straw_Revolution/One-Straw_Revolution.html

Fukuoka grew primarily rice and citrus trees, but also many different vegetables/herbs using a "do-nothing" natural farming method. This does not involve any ACT regimen or even enzyme/herbal tea regimen. He simply used cover crops (green manure) and and seeded at specific times and over time was able to produce yields equivalent or greater than those using commercial methods with chemical fertilizers and expensive equipment. 

Thanks to Headtreep for the suggestion, this may be one of my all time favorites.


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## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

I'd sure hate to see a starting grower feel he needs a brewer and spends his limited budget on such a brewer because he read how excited you were. That's what bothers me. Here's a guy trying to grow something that's evolved for hundreds of millions of years... but now he feels he needs to spend limited funds on an ACT brewer. That would be tragic in my mind. There are dozens of other things I'd recommend he spend his limited cash on.

So we're clear, I realize you are not growing anything commercially. What I'm saying is that when potentially beneficial, viable techniques or amendments surface, the commercial growers look to see if it can benefit them. There is no benefit for commercial growers, so that in and of itself should be a clue as to its effectiveness with MJ. It's not discussed at large agricultural trade conferences, not discussed in trade rags like Acres, nothing. If ACT is so great, why is no one using it commercially? Commercial growers use and find great value in the the rest of the products we all use.


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## sullivan666 (Apr 16, 2013)

Here's a little follow up video for my previous post. 

http://youtu.be/sQOG-dBsgzQ


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## kushking42 (Apr 16, 2013)

very well said Rrog. a diverse decaying pile of leaves for mulch. and some quality compost sure is cheaper than a brewer.


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## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

One Straw Revolution is a big deal. Fukoka would not buy a brewer. He's lazy like me. Maybe I'm lazier, even. Anywho- my VermiCompost bags are killin' it!


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I'd sure hate to see a starting grower feel he needs a brewer and spends his limited budget on such a brewer because he read how excited you were. That's what bothers me. Here's a guy trying to grow something that's evolved for hundreds of millions of years... but now he feels he needs to spend limited funds on an ACT brewer. That would be tragic in my mind. There are dozens of other things I'd recommend he spend his limited cash on.
> 
> So we're clear, I realize you are not growing anything commercially. What I'm saying is that when potentially beneficial, viable techniques or amendments surface, the commercial growers look to see if it can benefit them. There is no benefit for commercial growers, so that in and of itself should be a clue as to its effectiveness with MJ. It's not discussed at large agricultural trade conferences, not discussed in trade rags like Acres, nothing. If ACT is so great, why is no one using it commercially? Commercial growers use and find great value in the the rest of the products we all use.




"I'd sure hate to see a starting grower feel he needs a brewer and *spends  his limited budget* on such a brewer because he read how excited you were. That's what bothers me. Here's a guy trying to grow something that's evolved for hundreds of millions of years... but now *he feels he needs to spend limited funds* on an ACT brewer. That would be tragic in my mind. There are dozens of other things I'd recommend* he spend his limited cash on*."

-*I'm 99% sure there's no one brewing in one of those high dollar brewers here on RIU. *
*Not once have I suggested someone buying a brewer bro...Nor has anyone on this thread man..Buying a brewer?? WHAT?! No...
Buying an air pump and some air stones sure. Buying things you don't need?? NO. Using what you have, sure.
Bigotry, NO. Sharing knowledge, sure.

*"So we're clear, I realize you are not growing anything commercially. What I'm saying is that when potentially beneficial, viable techniques or amendments surface, the commercial growers look to see if it can benefit them. There is no benefit for commercial growers, so that in and of itself should be a clue as to its effectiveness with MJ. It's not discussed at large agricultural trade conferences, not discussed in trade rags like Acres, nothing. If ACT is so great, why is no one using it commercially? Commercial growers use and find great value in the the rest of the products we all use."

*Glad your clear! Just wanted to make sure you were. Seems like you keep getting confused...
What's discussed and what's not discussed isn't for you to determine brother! Not even..
What you hear, what you learn, your opinion...That's on you bro.
Just like what you don't hear, what you don't learn, and still, your opinion....That's on you bro.

You're not speaking on behalf of all commercial growers or all whoever you think you are...
Maybe a couple ppl following your methods yeah or who learn from what you've taught them yeah, but not NEARLY are you speaking on behalf of masses.

You're speaking on the behalf of yourself and maybe a few of your "friends".*


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## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

I'm simply observing that Weedies use ACT, and other growing populations don't. Seems painfully obvious. No seminars, no clinics, no presentations, no handouts, no class teachings, not a thing, except in Weedville. I'm not so stuck on something that I can't see this. 

If it was so good farmers would use it. You would agree with that, right? If ACT really boosted... anything... why wouldn't a farmer use it? If it's so good, why is it the best kept secret in the horticultural world?


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

From my POV. You're stuck on something..The video that bro posted a little bit earlier wasn't in regards to weed....It was in regards to produce.
There are no *"No seminars, no clinics, no presentations, no handouts, no class teachings, "* because you're not looking.

It's not the best kept secret and farmers do use it..I'm confused why you keep saying that over and over!
You obviously just don't.

But lets just call it quits man! *Make another thread as to why you shouldn't use AACT's and I won't say a thing on it!*
The title of this one just doesn't suit you


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## headtreep (Apr 16, 2013)

Regardless of disagreement, this is a good learning lesson for new people. Hash it out here https://www.rollitup.org/organics/645286-why-act-mainly-used-only.html#post8968806


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## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

S420- The title of this thread is irrelevant. What I said is factual. I'm closer linked to the formal horticulture market than you might think. When I say that the global hort / ag trade shows have never ever had even a presentation on ACT, I know of what I speak. 

I say this over and over because it's true. People like you get upset at the prospect that no one outside of weedville uses ACT, but to date NO ONE has ever come back and said... "uhhh... strawberry farmers love ACT- Peach growers love it, lettuce farmers..." Nothin. No article in Acres (etc) magazine, nada. Sure you see a little guy with a 500 lb pumpkin selling microbes (  ) but aside from that rare businessman, a farmer who reviews data and cost isn't inclined to run his compost through a spin cycle. He just adds the compost and does other necessary work.

ACT is a faster road, but the same road


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

The title of this thread is NOT irrelevant & that makes no sense...
And you being closer to a market explains the prejudice...

And I'm not upset bro. Just read my text, not in between the lines.
Just stop lol.


"*Sure you see a little guy with a 500 lb pumpkin selling microbes (




) but aside from that rare businessman, a farmer who reviews data and cost isn't inclined to run his compost through a spin cycle. He just adds the compost and does other necessary work."

*That same little guy selling the "500lb pumpkin" isn't trying to sell anyone an AACT brewer is either. 
He's just sharing his result. The "500lb pumpkin" that he grew with the application of the AACT.

And you have tyeaming with microbes linked in your sig....
Some of things you've said in the last few posts, contradict that literature.

And if you agree that and AACT is a faster road, but the same road, why the last 20 posts?


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## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

Unless you're starting a new soil, or have serious problems there's just no need for speed. Is ACT OK? Sure! Is it fun? Maybe! Is it necessary? Absolutely not, but since you love it and have developed a comfortable growing regimen around ACT, then I wholeheartedly think you should continue. But when you step out of fact-land and state that something is better, I will be there.

Anyway, there is a whole world beyond ACT to discuss.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

Oh Yeah...keep waiting for that moment boss.

*Is ACT OK? Sure! Is it fun? Maybe! Is it necessary?*

You're asking the wrong questions...
But is faster better??

[video=youtube;H3R-rtWPyJY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3R-rtWPyJY[/video]

Maybe grandma needs some AACT


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## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

Be kind and be factual. And in the meantime if you or anyone else find some segments of the ag / hort industry outside of weedville using ACT, it would be useful. 

As a separate topic- In my opinion watering your plants with RO is great. Any thoughts on that?


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## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Maybe grandma needs some AACT


I just now read that! That's funny!


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

Rrog said:


> *Be kind and be factual.* And in the meantime if you or anyone else find some segments of the ag / hort industry outside of weedville using ACT, it would be useful.
> 
> As a separate topic- In my opinion watering your plants with RO is great. Any thoughts on that?


*You...Be kind and be factual.* And remember that you are not omnscient.
And I'm not looking to meet any "tomato or carrot or cabbage or lettuce" growers anytime soon.

I'm looking to meet more ppl who wanna talk about AACTs!

And I think nothing of RO. I use water from the tap and AACTs like once a week or every other week, depending on how I feel! If I don't wanna "work to hard" I might skip a brew


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## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

I have hard well water and used to use it, but with the concept of recycling soil, the Ca and Mg levels might get nasty in a couple years. So I'll be moving to RO water. Hooked up to Blumat drippers.

Oh, and it's not that I don't use teas. I use and recommend botanical teas all the time. Barley Seed, corn, Alfalfa and coconut seeds all deliver some really excellent enzymes, hormones, metabolites, etc. And they get bubbled to stay aerobic. 24-36 hour brew and you're good to go. Throw the leftover vegetation in the worm bin


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

Wish I could help bro. But the only answers I'd be able to give you I'd have to Google right quick....
Why not set up a few rains barrels?


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## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

Someone else mentioned a cistern on another forum. As I understand it, you can collect rainwater off a metal roof, not asphalt, and I'm doing metal roofing, so I may do this. Otherwise I'll need another water softener and all that salt, etc. Pretty much the rain barrel idea.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 16, 2013)

I think one of the biggest reasons many farmers don't use AACTs is because they simply dont need to.

They have enough compost/manure/spoiled hay/grass clippings/alfalfa/clover to manage fertility without them.

I think compost teas are GREAT for the average home gardener, and GREAT for lawns, parks and other areas impractical to spread compost.

If you have acres and acres of land to work, and utilize, your time would be better spent rotating crops and fitting green manures in whenever possible.

But if you've got a small compost pile in your back yard, a garden next to it, and some meds growing in the basement, then BY ALL MEANS compost teas will be of GREAT benefit to those who wish not to purchase bottled nutes, and don't really produce enough compost to sufficiently go around.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 16, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> And I'm not looking to meet any "tomato or carrot or cabbage or lettuce" growers anytime soon.
> 
> I'm looking to meet more ppl who wanna talk about AACTs!




Thats too bad bro, because I grow salad greens/lettuce for local grocery stores, farmers markets, neighbors, friends and family.

So you don't want to meet me...?


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## headtreep (Apr 16, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Thats too bad bro, because I grow salad greens/lettuce for local grocery stores, farmers markets, neighbors, friends and family.
> 
> So you don't want to meet me...?


I'd kick it with the both of youse. Smoke some bowls and shit hehe


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Thats too bad bro, because I grow salad greens/lettuce for local grocery stores, farmers markets, neighbors, friends and family.
> 
> So you don't want to meet me...?


Now that I look at that, it's looks kinda ugly...

Sometimes I say things that I shouldn't....Not too often I think, but i'm guilty :/
I don't mean anything hostile towards farmers and my hats off to you..

In context, it's not so bad...Just not on a marijuana website seeking the advice of vegetable growers in particular as dude suggested..

I'd rather discuss AACTs with ppl on this thread 

Nice post btw. You made perfect sense of the situation in your first couple sentences with the other post.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

But really tho, from what I've learned, by carefully selecting the ingredients you put in the teas, you can brew a specific concauction.

My thinking is that the living soil itself is the buffer of all buffers, so why not push it to the limit with AACTs?
I'm not a farmer like you said, so I don't have the luxury of having different manures and composts to work in..
I've got bagged compost, local wormcastings, and amended Fox Farms Ocean Forest to make due with...
I'm in a house. Not on farm. I guess I forget that everyone don't have just an "indoor growing" mindset.


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## grnhrvstr (Apr 16, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Someone else mentioned a cistern on another forum. As I understand it, you can collect rainwater off a metal roof, not asphalt, and I'm doing metal roofing, so I may do this. Otherwise I'll need another water softener and all that salt, etc. Pretty much the rain barrel idea.


Care to elaborate a little about not collecting rain from an asphalt roof?I did a quick search and had seen others with the same concern but seems it may be the opposite.I have 2 250 collection tanks that are fed by an asphalt roof and it seems fine for the plants but it does make me wonder.

I brew teas weekly..mainly cuz my one single P.O.S $3.00 pump only makes bubbles in half a gallon jug....lolz,but that half gallon is deadly when used 
When I get a bigger pump I have a 55 gallon just waiting to go to work!


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## GreenSanta (Apr 16, 2013)

i use act, part of the hobby... i grew wicked shit without it and still does (get lazy sometimes)

how much coco do you guys use in your notill mix?


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## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

S420- All discussions aside I am very sure of one thing- Your soil is probably about as good as it gets. And I am equally sure your bud is equally dank. Of this I have no doubt. You are very passionate about all of this and I respect that a lot. I forget, and I'm sorry about that, but do you have a worm bin going?

hrvstr- I got my understanding from scanning some blogs and articles. I haven't read anything much on the topic at all. But it sure interests me.


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## NickNasty (Apr 16, 2013)

grnhrvstr said:


> Care to elaborate a little about not collecting rain from an asphalt roof?I did a quick search and had seen others with the same concern but seems it may be the opposite.I have 2 250 collection tanks that are fed by an asphalt roof and it seems fine for the plants but it does make me wonder.
> 
> I brew teas weekly..mainly cuz my one single P.O.S $3.00 pump only makes bubbles in half a gallon jug....lolz,but that half gallon is deadly when used
> When I get a bigger pump I have a 55 gallon just waiting to go to work!


I have done a little bit of research on asphalt verses metal roofs for gardens and found that both have there pros and cons asphalt roofs are made from oil and as they break down they can leave chemicals in your water some of the more expensive types also have something in them to stop algae growth and this is said to be bad for all plants not just algae. Metal roofs usually have a coating on them that has zinc in it to keep them from degrading and it can be toxic to you but more likely your plants. However both of these things really are only in abundance in the first 10 gallons or so(depends on size of roof) rain runoff because its mainly the sun that degrades the roofing. So to fix this you simply add a roof washer or something like a first flush diverter to get rid of the water that first comes off your roof. Here are a couple different examples.


I have a 1000 gallon cistern in my basement that is not in use right now. I plan on redoing my roof this summer and when I do I am still not sure whether I am going to get a metal roof or an asphalt but from the reading I have done both should be ok for rain collection as long as you divert the first bit of your water. My plan is to use the cistern to water my plants with and to also use it to do water cooling in my basement.


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## NickNasty (Apr 16, 2013)

Just to be clear from the reading I have done I don't think the type of roof you have matters too much when collecting rain water. What does matter is getting rid of the first bit of runoff. I would probably use a filter if I were drinking the water off of any type of roof. And from my research it seems that metal roofs are the more environmentally friendly as they save you in energy costs use less carbon emissions to make and last longer but asphalt are about a 3rd cheaper to put up.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 16, 2013)

Rrog said:


> S420- All discussions aside I am very sure of one thing- Your soil is probably about as good as it gets. And I am equally sure your bud is equally dank. Of this I have no doubt. You are very passionate about all of this and I respect that a lot. I forget, and I'm sorry about that, but do you have a worm bin going?
> 
> hrvstr- I got my understanding from scanning some blogs and articles. I haven't read anything much on the topic at all. But it sure interests me.


Thanks for the kind words!
The more I learn, the more these things interest me. There's more too it man I'm telling you!
But I apologize too for my tone at times! I'm pretty passionate about it because it's working so well for me man!
I think I'm about to pull close to 3oz off of a plant that basically 12/12 from seed!(1w 18/6)

And I've been creeping looking at all the worm bin pots, and am def. gonna get one started here soon.
I like the concept of yours and was thinking of going DIY and doing on in a couple smart pots, but I've made my mind up that I'll go ahead an spoil myself and just buy a little 5 layer bin..
The only thing I don't like about the DIY bins are having to dig around in all the muck and seperate the castings ya know


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## xtrmstev (Apr 16, 2013)

Good info...but ...gotta tell ya, I was so distracted by his Tube beard, I had to watch it again...and Damn it...I had to just look away and listen...yea the Tube beard got me Again...Damn It!!!


Rising Moon said:


> [video=youtube;2g6YjZUwlg4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g6YjZUwlg4&amp;list=UU5xbo9BKi9N5N1uaHtg3ukA&amp; index=10[/video]


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## Cann (Apr 16, 2013)

Rrog said:


> *But when you step out of fact-land and state that something is better, I will be there.​*




lol...thats why we love you Rrog 

for real though...sincerely420, you should read one straw revolution if you havent. Fukuoka's way of thinking is drastically different than yours, and it would be a good perspective change for you. simplify, simplify, simplify. 

you seem to be a guy who likes things bigger, better, and faster. that at&t commercial made me sick honestly....please don't post anymore ads up here lol. especially ones that are advocating that more is better...thats the mentality that has us destroying the earth in the pursuit of "more". less is more. 

"_Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication_" - Da Vinci​


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## headtreep (Apr 16, 2013)

I make slurries too Rrog hehe. My tea bucket sees more herbal teas than ACT anymore as my soil is where I need it to be now. My new soil I made based off Coots recipe with a few extras is very nice. Much better than recycled Roots. Wish I could share more ladies


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## Rrog (Apr 17, 2013)

Nick-that-is-nasty that is some excellent info on the water. Makes perfect sense also. Very cool of you to share this.

S420- You of all people would just dig a worm bin. Absolutely. You should do this. 

Headtreep- The soil sounds really excellent. Sounds like the soil recipe that I have grown comfy with.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 17, 2013)

Cann said:


> lol...thats why we love you Rrog
> 
> for real though...sincerely420, you should read one straw revolution if you havent. Fukuoka's way of thinking is drastically different than yours, and it would be a good perspective change for you. simplify, simplify, simplify.
> 
> ...



Yooo, I'm not a fan of yours...I'm so far from it....
I feel like all you do is sneak diss when you get the opportunity to lol.
I feel like regurgitate everything that Rrog says pretty much..But that doesn't mean much ya know, as it's just MY opinion.

I'm not gonna simplify, sorry. I'm gonna push it and go better...You'll see...Or you won't actually lol bcuz we don't follow each other...
Lets just say that you'll hear about it haha or see it somewhere lol. 
And I'm a guy that never settles...I'm a guy that always wants more...Faster.......

It's not complicated...More is better....Faster is better.

Destroying the eath in pursuit of more?! What are you talking about?
And doesn't matter who's views are different than mine lol, becuase they're no me...and their views aren't mine....

I never been one to follow "just because"...


----------



## Sincerely420 (Apr 17, 2013)

headtreep said:


> I make slurries too Rrog hehe. My tea bucket sees more herbal teas than ACT anymore as my soil is where I need it to be now. My new soil I made based off Coots recipe with a few extras is very nice. Much better than recycled Roots. Wish I could share more ladies


Stinging Nettle and Comfrey Leaf and Aloe here I come haha! And I can def. thank you guys for that


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## Rrog (Apr 17, 2013)

S420- Please share your results with these Botanical teas. You will really dig them. No question.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 17, 2013)

Will do without a doubt.
I've been having issues with wind burn since I've gotta keep the fans so close to cool them atm.
Got some new gear(air cooled 400w HPS) and they fan speed controller doesn't work with the new inline,
so I'm cooling a 400wHPS with two PC fans and exhausting with a duct fan...*In NO WAY IDEA lol.*..
*But* I've only got a couple weeks max before I finish up this run and then I'm back to my T5VHO for veg, which is cool(temp wise).
Gonna have another air cooled 400 for the next flowering sesh, so I'll get a new fan speed controller then..
But I'll def share the results! 
I'll be going *HARD* with the AACT's too, foliar and drench!


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## Rrog (Apr 17, 2013)

What does the wind burn look like?


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rrog said:


> What does the wind burn look like?


Kinda like heat stress


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## Cann (Apr 17, 2013)

just read one straw revolution....it'll help you regardless of how you feel about any of us. fukuoka deserves a read


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 17, 2013)

Like one book is gonna change the way I feel bro..
I'm like 40 books in now....

Anybody who keeps up with me here on RIU knows I put my work it..
There's rhyme to my reason always, and I'm more than capable of explaining the logic behind the thing I do!


Ease up already 

*edit-waving my white flag in regards to all things not compost...In otherwords, not pertaining to this thread!


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## Rrog (Apr 17, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft0ylk4sU5M This is the video for the book. Very cool. The essence of his thinking and demonstration is permaculture and simplifying. He uses the term "lazy" a lot, but he draws in a lot of companion plants and crop rotation in the process. Fun watching him sew seeds


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I post because you post. Pretty simple. If you throw out the info you had better be prepared to discuss it. To be clear, I am not looking to convince you of anything. I am simply offering some scientific balance to your assertions.
> 
> BTW peer reviewed means someone else from that scientific community reviewed or re-created the data. That hasn't happened. So you are propagating info that has no peer review.
> 
> ...



So....I'm looking...researching...Getting my noob on...You know...Nerding...

And I Google, "_compost tea problems_" *and that 2nd link you share is the 1st link to pop up*...

You mean to tell me that's what you doing??


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## Rrog (Apr 18, 2013)

I'm not sure what you're saying. By the way, we should keep in mind that Compost Tea is different from ACT. We all use compost tea, but some of us then aerate it. That's the hair that we're splitting.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 18, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I'm not sure what you're saying. By the way, we should keep in mind that Compost Tea is different from ACT. We all use compost tea, but some of us then aerate it. That's the hair that we're splitting.


I mean I Googled, "compost tea problems" and the 2nd link you provided was the *very first* thing that popped up.

And compost tea is differant the aerated compost tea(ACT) bcuz it's not oxygenated, and it doesn't work the same..
It's pretty much old fashioned to use a "compost tea" these days when you have the aerated compost tea.

The main difference is that the ACT is better given the presence of oxygen, which keep things aerobic!

And hair being split??? You mean alllllllLLLLLLLLLL this time you were saying that compost tea use is futile, but not when you aerate it?!

And I mean to say are you googling things and giving me the first things you find?!
If you are that's no bueno lol!


----------



## Rrog (Apr 18, 2013)

NickNasty- Are you going to use that cistern you have?

Rising Moon- How are your outdoor spring planting plans coming along?


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## Cann (Apr 18, 2013)

lol rrog


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## NickNasty (Apr 18, 2013)

Its built into the house old school style, made of brick and concrete. Lots of Michigan homes have them. I will probably re concrete the interior then line it with pond liner. So yes I will eventually otherwise its just a huge waste of space in my basement. I am going to try and setup water cooling thru it an cool my basement that way.


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## Rrog (Apr 19, 2013)

Ah- it's in the basement. Never saw one in MI.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 19, 2013)

Google pulls up results based on previous searches...

Your search may pull up that link first, but my search will put up others...

Its just the way it works, they spy on you, you use their algorithm...


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## Rrog (Apr 19, 2013)

Moon- Hows the water affected your outdoor garden plans?


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 19, 2013)

Hmmm...I haven't ever previously searched for anything like that. 
Dont have saved Internet or search history on...my ip is spoofed twice...

all I know is that I googled "compost tea problems" and the first thing that popped up was the link Rrog provided..

when I give an answer. I don't need google for it

*edit- On bing its a couple links down the page..
And when you "Bing" compost tea problems, it's the 6th link down.
The 5 before that are in support of compost tea use, even tho I'm looking for problems with compost tea.

I'm done with the back and forth tho RM.
Just saying don't Google some shit and throw it out there when it's the first link that pops up.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 19, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Moon- Hows the water affected your outdoor garden plans?


Damn man...

Everything is FLOODED. My buddy's basement was filling up b/c his sump pump went out in the middle of the night...

And my raised beds are like mud. This weekend will be the big dry out...

Ive got all sorts of plants started (fruits, veggies and meds) just waiting on the rain for most of my green production to start.

I planted a couple rows of Bok Choi last week, and I think they might be washed out...

Bout to head into work, gotta medicate!

( I tried to PM you but your box was full)


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## Rrog (Apr 19, 2013)

PM box is empty now. I'll be glad when the water eases a bit. I always think of the great lakes and how they need the water, but would like it if this were a little easier on us.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 20, 2013)

Happy 4/20 all to the tea gang!


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## headtreep (Apr 20, 2013)

Happy 420 everyone!!!! Smokin on some Snazzleberry from Chimera. Bombay!


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 20, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Happy 420 everyone!!!! Smokin on some Snazzleberry from Chimera. Bombay!


Happy 420 bossman! Kite High from some Delicious Seeds Critical Jack Herer! I am body bumpin' and *I LOVE IT*!


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## Mohican (Apr 20, 2013)

Organic pest control - me outside at midnight with a flashlight and glasses:







Cheers,
Mo


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## Cann (Apr 21, 2013)

LOL! fucking earwigs.....i have way too many in my garden. bastards


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## Mohican (Apr 21, 2013)

I read in a gardening site that you can used a covered dish with beer and soapy water to catch them. I used Sevin last year because I just could not fight them all. Now I am just going out at midnight and picking them off. Do you guys have any good organic earwig preventatives?


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

Is this 1 gallon tea ready to go.... 1/2 cup high P bat guano 1/4 cup worm castings, 1/4 seabird guano. 

Pre fungi with 3 tbs baby oatmeal for 72 hours in wet warm place. 

Placed 12 hours ago in bucket of 1 gallon aerated water, with 3 tsp humic acid, 1 oz kelp extract and 1 tbs molasses.

Here is what it looks like now...


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## Mohican (Apr 21, 2013)

Keep going - a couple days at least. It will get a beer head. You do have an air stone in the tea right?


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

yes I do, so the foam will rise more than it has?
Also curious if the time it takes changes 1 gallon tea brewing verses 5 gallon?


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## Mohican (Apr 21, 2013)

Nope - the longer the better (to a point). You want the microbes to really get established. It will get foamy with finer sized bubbles and start to smell like beer


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Nope - the longer the better (to a point). You want the microbes to really get established. It will get foamy with finer sized bubbles and start to smell like beer


Roger that, note to self don't drink from large bucket that smells like beer no matter what. Not for personal consumption. 

Thinking will give my baby a drink from this come tomorrow evening 36 hrs into brew.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 21, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Is this 1 gallon tea ready to go.... 1/2 cup high P bat guano 1/4 cup worm castings, 1/4 seabird guano.
> 
> Pre fungi with 3 tbs baby oatmeal for 72 hours in wet warm place.
> 
> ...


Like the idea Dank, but the ratios for your tea are *WAY OFF*! So I'd start over and use water only this time!

You have WAYYY too much in one gallon of water bro! That tea will prob burn the SHIT outta you girls!
There's WAYYYY too much guano in that tea! You need to drop down to like a tbs per gallon* MAX*! The most I ever use is a teaspoon per gallon!

The fungi you're making from the oatmeal sounds good tho!

And bubble for 18-24 hours bro! Not 12!
The humic acid is a plus, but I don't use it. I'd say drop that down to a tsp too.
And rather than using kelp extract, do you not have kelp meal?
And 1tbs is fine I'm sure, but I'd go with a tsp or two instead. I never use a tbsp per gallon. Always one or two teaspoons depending on what else I add!


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 21, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Roger that, note to self don't drink from large bucket that smells like beer no matter what. Not for personal consumption.
> 
> Thinking will give my baby a drink from this come tomorrow evening 36 hrs into brew.


Toss this tea bro.....Or it use at your own risk!!!

And Mohican, I've never had a tea tha smelled like beer !
The bubble are a good indication of a reacting in the tea, but not necessarily a reaction from microbes reproducing


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 21, 2013)

[SIZE=+2]*Recipes Which Can Be Used With A 50 gallon (US) Compost Tea Brewer*[/SIZE]

*Brewing Temperature:*

There has been recent discussion concerning the best temperature for brewing. *There are two basic schools of thought; 1/ that one should brew at the temperature of the soil where the CT is to be applied. 2/ that the temperature range of 63 F to 70 F (17 C to 21 C) is the optimum for a maximum production and diversity of microbes.* This aspect obviously needs research. I am of the opinion that one should brew at a temperature which maximizes microbial numbers and creates a functional microbial nutrient cycling consortia. I think that a large, self supporting, population has a better chance of survival once applied to the soil. Besides, if you brew at 50 F it may take days to have a microbial population. I therefore try to start my brews around 65 F.

*Compost:*
If you are purchasing compost, I recommend compost from KIS or another source of compost which is known to be microbially active.

If you are home composting, generally speaking fresh vermicompost is just about the best substance one can use for brewing compost tea. If you can purchase some composting worms and feed them a variety of food you really cant go wrong.

I*f you want a fungal compost SFI has recommended mixing oat flour (or powdered oatmeal) about 1:20 with your compost and keeping damp and covered with a cloth for 8 to 10 days.* This does work, although I am unsure whether there is a diversity of species of fungal hyphae grown. If you see white or blue fuzz growing on the surface turn it under. What we want is transparent and colored microscopic fungal hyphae. A side benefit to this procedure is that if left longer than 10 days I have seen multitudes of bacterial feeding nematodes growing. Im not sure if this is peculiar to my compost. Try it. Compost tea is not a good medium for distributing nematodes. Better to distribute them by hand in the compost.

*Another trick to encourage fungal growth is to use good quality fish hydrolysate* diluted in water (e.g. around 2 ounces per gallon of water) and dampen compost and cover for around 5 days with a cloth. 

*Although I am providing these recipes and guidelines which have worked for me, I cannot guarantee they will work identically with all brewers and compost quality. I encourage you to experiment but exercise common sense and consult with your professional contact. *

The recipe amounts given are for use with water that has a TDS/EC (total dissolved solids) of 35 PPM (parts per million) or less. This is really pure well or spring water with a relatively low mineral content. Water with a high mineral content (or that is turbid) has a lower capacity to maintain dissolved oxygen. If you know or suspect that your water has a high mineral content or high TDS then it is advisable to reduce the amounts of compost and feedstock (e.g. molasses, kelp meal, rock powders, fish hydrolysate, etc.). The amounts of compost recommended are for a very efficient brewer, capable of raising DO2 rates close to 10 or 12 PPM. If this is not your situation, reduce the amounts used. 

*Please be aware that the quality of the compost or vermicompost used is directly proportional to the quality of the compost tea produced.*

*Some Measures;*
50 gallons US is 189 liters 
1 gal. = 3.78 liters 
1 liter = 4.2 cups US 
1 liter = 1.05 quarts US liquid 
1 US ounce = 29.57 ml

[SIZE=+1]*Bacteria/Archaea*[/SIZE]
You will note that I use the expression bacteria/archaea rather than just bacteria. This is because recent scientific research has revealed that there is a distinct species, Archaea, co-habitating with bacteria which previously was called bacteria. The only way to tell them apart is through complex analysis. The difference is in their membrane structure and therefore their ability to process (digest) different substances. Because I cant tell them apart under the microscope I have decided to name them both.

[SIZE=+1]*A/ Recipe for a Diversity of Microbes; Nutrient Cycling *[/SIZE]
- measurements do not need to be precise; expressed in different units in brackets.

**compost/vermicompost  2.38% max.* (4.5 liters), (19 cups US), (4.5 quarts US)  reduce as required according to brewer and water quality

**unsulphured pure black strap molasses - I recommend using 0.50%* (just under 1 liter), (4 cups US) (1 quart US) [but you can use a maximum 0.75% (1.4 liters), (5.9 cups US), (1.4 quarts US)]  reduce as required according to brewer and water quality

**fish hydrolysate(high quality) - 0.063%* - (120 ml); (4 ounces)
Do not use chemically deodorized liquid fish!

**kelp meal - 0.25% max*. (0.5 liter or 500 ml), (17 ounces US), (0.5 quart US), (2 plus cups) 
NOTE: This is a maximum amount of kelp and you can experiment using less. This is using regular grade kelp meal for livestock. *If you have soluble kelp, I recommend using smaller amounts*. *Sometimes kelp meal can initially delay bacterial multiplication.
*
**soft rock phosphate granules/powder - 0.063%* - (120 ml) (4 ounces), (0.5 cup)
We grind up the granules into a powder with a coffee grinder

*Length of Brew;*
This will provide a CT with a microbial content of, bacteria/archaea and fungal hyphae (if present in compost) when brewed for 18 to 24 hours. When using our fungal inhabited vermicompost,* the optimum time seems to be 18 hours for a bacteria/archaea and fungal brew*. If brewed for 30 to 36 hours (and up to 42 to 48 hours if you have a microscope) there will be flagellates and amoebae (& some ciliates) as well, providing a functioning microbial consortia which is better for nutrient cycling in the soil/root interface. Because of the variations in brewing compost tea, it is better to examine the microbial content with a microscope and decide at what period of the brew you should apply it but if you do not have a microscope then use the CT between the time periods mentioned above for the desired effects. 

*Extras* (when using extras you may wish to adjust amounts of other ingredients to avoid overload)

**pyrophyllite clay powder  0.063%* - (120 ml), (4 ounces), (0.5 cup)
This is a good ingredient to stimulate more bacteria/archaea diversity which seems to experimentally contribute to disease control. It can be found here at a reasonable price. http://www.continentalclay.com/detail.php?PID=695&cat_id=197&sub_categoryID=4 

**alfalfa meal  up to 0.25%* (.5 liter or 500 ml), (17 ounces US), (0.5 quart US), (2 plus cups)
This promotes the growth of flagellates and amoebae and is also a fungal food. Just get the cheap stuff by the bag at the feed store, checking that it does not contain anti-microbials

**Canadian sphagnum peat moss Premier Brand**  throw in a handful or two* to promote flagellates and amoebae and/or fungal hyphae. Batches are inconsistent, so unless you have a microscope you wont be sure which set of microbes it will promote but I have never seen anything bad.

[SIZE=+2]*[SIZE=+1]B/ Fungal Dominant;[/SIZE] *[/SIZE]

**compost/vermicompost (fungal content) - 2.38% max.* (4.5 liters), (19 cups US), (4.5 quarts US)

**unsulphured pure black strap molasses - 0.25% *(475 ml rounded), (2 cups US), (0.5 quart US) 
NOTE: Also experiment with eliminating black strap molasses. Recent trials have shown that with some types of compost the fungi does better. If you have a microscope check it out for yourself.
*NOTE: If you have activated your compost with oat flour I recommend NOT using molasses in addition to fish hydrolysate unless you are willing to brew for a longer period* and best to have a microscope.

**fish hydrolysate(high quality) - 0.190%* - (360 ml) (12 ounces) Do not use chemically deodorized liquid fish! *You may experiment using slightly higher amounts.*

**kelp meal - 0.25% max.* (.5 liter or 500 ml), (17 ounces US), (0.5 quart US), (2 plus cups)
*NOTE: This is a maximum amount of kelp and you can experiment using less*. This is using regular grade kelp meal for livestock. *If you have soluble kelp, I recommend using smaller amounts. Sometimes kelp meal can initially delay bacterial multiplication.*

**rock phosphate granules/powder - 0.063% *- (120 ml), (4 ounces), (0.5 cup)
NOTE: We seem to get the same results using 100 ml of rock phosphate but experiment yourself. Sometimes we run the rock phosphate granules through the electric coffee grinder to get a fine powder.

*Extras * (when using extras you may wish to adjust amounts of other ingredients to avoid overload)

** Humic acid* - *I am no longer recommending the use of humic acid in compost tea, as I've not seen any benefits from doing so. Better to apply it directly to the soil.*

*y*ou could also add one of the Alaska Humus products and/or Canadian sphagnum Premier brand at 0.25% or less*. *If there are fungi spores present in the substance, hyphae should grow.*

**you may add a little soil or partially/completely decomposed forest litter (rotted leaves, wood pieces).* If you are applying CT to grass or flowers use some local soil from a healthy (unmanipulated by man) area where similar plant species are doing well. If you are applying to deciduous trees or bushes then gather some soil or forest litter from a deciduous forest where the forest appears healthy and has thatyou know fabulous earthy odor. I recommend using 500 ml. (0.5 liter) or 2 cups to begin with and see how that works out. Careful to not use big chunks if using the Microbulator 50.

*Length of Brew*
*Brew until fungal hyphae is observed with a microscope or for 18 to 24 hours.* When using our fungal inhabited vermicompost, the optimum time seems to be 18 hours for a bacteria/archaea and fungal brew, however fungal hyphae is extracted at 10 hours with less bacteria/archaea present. If you want a fungal dominant brew this may be the best time to apply. For those of you with microscopes, check it out. This recipe, provided there are fungi spores in your compost, should produce a higher volume of fungal hyphae and reduced bacteria/archaea numbers.


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Like the idea Dank, but the ratios for your tea are *WAY OFF*! So I'd start over and use water only this time!
> 
> You have WAYYY too much in one gallon of water bro! That tea will prob burn the SHIT outta you girls!
> There's WAYYYY too much guano in that tea! You need to drop down to like a tbs per gallon* MAX*! The most I ever use is a teaspoon per gallon!
> ...


Well hmm interesting from the recipes iv'e seen they were using about 1 cup vermi compost to 1 gallon water. Therefore 1 gallon tea 1 cup compost. Logical?

Hmm starting over will be on next tea, no reason I can't dilute with aerated h20 to this mix? Or dilute prior to application?

*should I note I pasted the ratios prior in my quick notes post for ACCT earlier in this thread... why was it not addressed then?

I am also going to test dilution on clone first that is about 7 to 8 inches with multiple nodes and healthy branches, Just recently topped to for a main line gig...


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

also based on the 50gal receipe thats 19 cups compost, 1 cup = 2.6 gal. So I figure I add 1.6 gallon water to get right ratio? 
Any other concern?


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 21, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Well hmm interesting from the recipes iv'e seen they were using about 1 cup vermi compost to 1 gallon water. Therefore 1 gallon tea 1 cup compost. Logical?
> *
> Hmm starting over will be on next tea, no reason I can't dilute with aerated h20 to this mix? Or dilute prior to application?
> 
> ...


I would just toss it out bro. And I missed whatever post you were talking about before, which is why I didn't comment.
But I would have told you to toss that tea out too haha! If it was anything like this last one!



DANKSWAG said:


> also based on the 50gal receipe thats 19 cups compost, 1 cup = 2.6 gal. So I figure I add 1.6 gallon water to get right ratio?
> Any other concern?


And it gets REALLY confusing when trying to convert cups of this to cups of that, given the difference in wet and solid in US measurements.
I've been adding 1/4c compost or EWCs per gallon, and I've been having success. 

Where are you at during the plants life? Flowering? Veg? I'll give you a couple of my recipes and you can go from their and put your own touches on them!
I've got a 12/12 from seed gang pretty much, and when you look at the bud to leaf ratio on them, it's obvious that the teas are doing *WORK!
*


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

why toss it out if its a matter of dilution to be applicable?


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

one thing i can tell you this tea smells like someone shoved my face into a bag of roots organic potting soil...


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 21, 2013)

Just because it's easier to brew the bad microbes than the bennies.

But I'm not always right and I'm just giving my opinion based on what I know and what I'd do boss 

You can dilute it and use it sure, I just wouldn't! BUT, if you do end up diluting and using it, watch it carely like within the 3-4 hours afterwards and see if you notice any leaf discoloration. If you don;t, you should be good!


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Just because it's easier to brew the bad microbes than the bennies.
> 
> But I'm not always right and I'm just giving my opinion based on what I know and what I'd do boss
> 
> You can dilute it and use it sure, I just wouldn't! BUT, if you do end up diluting and using it, watch it carely like within the 3-4 hours afterwards and see if you notice any leaf discoloration. If you don;t, you should be good!


Other than being strong, it smells right, like I have my face buried in a bag of roots organic soil. So unless there is another reason to be concerned except I brewed a concentrated form that needs dilution then I will have to apply to my flowering babe (see signature link) for its a High P brew for flowering and my baby clones are still in veg. 

I will watch for any distress within the first 4 hours, flush with water if anything occurs and move on. 
If not will move on with using it. Say how long can it sit in the bucket aerating before it has to be used?


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 21, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Other than being strong, it smells right, like I have my face buried in a bag of roots organic soil. So unless there is another reason to be concerned except I brew a concentrated form that needs dilution then I will have to apply to my flowering babe (see signature link) for its a High P brew for flowering and my baby clones are still in veg.
> 
> I will watch for any distress within the first 4 hours, flush with water if anything occurs and move on.
> If not will move on with using it. Say how long can it sit in the bucket aerating before it has to be used?


Just more like...when you wanna brew bennies, you need certain ingredients to do so.
You can't just put whatever in water an expect it to reproduce! And when you look at how much the recommened doses are for using guanos, it's like you're just ASKING to burn you girls. I think guano says on the back up the bag to use tbsp per gallon, but you're using 1/2 cup of it!
1/4 cup is like 4 spoons, so half cup is like 8-10!

So you're not brewing a tea..you're just adding amendments to water and bubbling them lol!
BUT, i'll check your thread out and see what happens!

Just know I voted against it!


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## Mohican (Apr 21, 2013)

The molasses always reminds me of beer! Especially after it has been eaten by the microbes


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 21, 2013)

Mohican said:


> The molasses always reminds me of beer! Especially after it has been eaten by the microbes


It always scares me lol, bcuz once I used to much and ignored the fact that it smell toooooo damn sweet....
Pour it on my girls and the did NOT like it haha! So now I always use it in EXTREME moderation lol


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Just more like...when you wanna brew bennies, you need certain ingredients to do so.
> You can't just put whatever in water an expect it to reproduce! And when you look at how much the recommened doses are for using guanos, it's like you're just ASKING to burn you girls. I think guano says on the back up the bag to use tbsp per gallon, but you're using 1/2 cup of it!
> 1/4 cup is like 4 spoons, so half cup is like 8-10!
> 
> ...


Not questioning you, just trying to understand what makes you think I have not created bennies? There is no bad smell, I have the foaming of the brew. Just want to understand on what facts of tea making that leads you to believe I am just adding amendments to water and that I do not have a viable aact tea brewing? I believe you don't think I have an aact tea, just not clear on why factually?


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> It always scares me lol, bcuz once I used to much and ignored the fact that it smell toooooo damn sweet....
> Pour it on my girls and the did NOT like it haha! So now I always use it in EXTREME moderation lol


So how about a recipe for flowering.... using EWC Bat guano and Seabird guano?


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 21, 2013)

It's all good boss!!

Just judging by the amendments you've added and the amounts of each.
Certain amendment brew certain things in the teas, and have to be mixed accordingly to help control which bennies grows.

For example, using vermicompost as your main source of compost during flowering isn't ideal bcuz EWCs add to the bacterial count, which fix N.
Other than the EWC, I don't see anything else that you've added which will add to the b/a count.
The foam really means nothing as well! Or it means something, but not that bennies are reproducing!


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 21, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> So how about a recipe for flowering.... using EWC Bat guano and Seabird guano?


You have any compost? or mixed up soil laying around?!


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> You have any compost? or mixed up soil laying around?!


i just got this bunny poo compost from my neighbor... it is bunny poo and straw?


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> It's all good boss!!
> 
> Just judging by the amendments you've added and the amounts of each.
> Certain amendment brew certain things in the teas, and have to be mixed accordingly to help control which bennies grows.
> ...


Seems like every recipe out there has EWC, so though it could not be solid aact that is free from bacteria from EWC applying this tea shouldn't hurt as long as it is not too hot.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 21, 2013)

Try using 1/4cup to a gallon maybe?! What about Kelp Meal?

I feed like you need to have: 
-UnSulphured Molasses
-Kelp Meal
-Fish Hydro(Neptune Harvest)
-Compost
-Vermicompost.

The microbes that you aim to reproduce in the teas start with the compost...
That's the main reason I feel like the brew is a little off ya know


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 21, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Seems like every recipe out there has EWC, so though it could not be solid aact that is free from bacteria from EWC applying this tea shouldn't hurt as long as it is not too hot.


Most do have EWCs bro, but I'd say those are veg tea, or balanced tea..but not flowering teas.
EWCS are pretty much plant ready Nitrogen.

And bacteria reproduce much better/faster than fungi, so you need to take care to avoid brewing a bacterially dominant tea EVERY TIME you know?!


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> i just got this bunny poo compost from my neighbor... it is bunny poo and straw?


will this bunny poo and straw work for compost?


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 21, 2013)

Can't say for sure bro  I'd guess that it's be pretty baterially dominant making it better for veg!

That's just a guess tho. You can try it out for sure tho!


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Can't say for sure bro  I'd guess that it's be pretty baterially dominant making it better for veg!
> 
> You say baterically dominate for veg? Because? You think it is high in N? not P correct?
> So If I had just cut out my EWC and got my vermi compost in High P ratio to a gallon of water and used kelp meal not liquid extract... my tea would be a viable acct brew?


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 21, 2013)

Alright...EWC = Vermicompost
*Vermicompost* is worm compost! Compost that passed thru worms and got coated with their inner goodness!
*Compost* is just decaying/decayed organic matter! But nothing to do with the worms

And yes you want a bacterially dominant tea *during veg*! Either than or a balanced tea!

For example here are two different mixes I'd use outta IDK how many:

*Veg mix:*
*1 gal* h20(dechlorinated)
*1/4cup* Vermicompost or EWCs(Earthworms castings)
*1tbsp* "Ancient forest" compost
*1/2tsp* Kelp Meal
*1tsp* Fish Hydro(Neptunes Harvest)
*1tsp* Molasses
____________________________
*Flower mix:*

*1 gal* h20(dechlorinated)
*1/4cup* "Ancient forest" compost
*1tbsp* EWCs
*1/2tsp* Kelp Meal
*1tsp* Fish Hydro(Neptunes Harvest)
*1tsp *Hi-P Bat Guano
*1tsp* Molasses

The only thing I changed in the two recipes is the main source of the bennies from EWC to compost.

That's pretty much the mix I use as a basis, and I deviated from it a little, but only with one experiment at a time.
And I never give the same exact tea over and over.

I also dilute everything 1:1 just to stretch it out since I only brew by the gallon! I'll be going up to the 5 gallon brew for the next grow!


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

Thanks,

I really want to use my high phosphorus bat guano and sea bird guano, couldn't I use 1/4 cup High P bat guano and 1 tbsp seabird guano for substitutes to the recipe? 

*Flower mix:*

*1 gal* h20(dechlorinated)
*1/4cup* "Ancient forest" compost
*1tbsp* EWCs
*1/2tsp* Kelp Meal
*1tsp* Fish Hydro(Neptunes Harvest)
*1tsp* Molasses


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 21, 2013)

I would say no based on my current level of understanding bro.

*And I usually add a tsp of Hi P guano during flowering! I just forgot to add it! But I went back and added it!*

And in order to substitute something, you have to put something similar in it's place bro!
There's nothing to doing the job of that 1/4c Hi-P guano for you to replace it with..

Look at the back of the bag. It should say use a tbsp per gallon of water every couple weeks..
*Why would you think you can go over the amount they suggest THAT MUCH, and have no ill effects ya know?!*


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> I would say no based on my current level of understanding bro.
> 
> *And I usually add a tsp of Hi P guano during flowering! I just forgot to add it! But I went back and added it!*
> 
> ...


So what does a recipe look like using high P bat guano?


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 21, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> So what does a recipe look like using high P bat guano?


*
1 gal h20(dechlorinated)
1/4cup "Ancient forest" compost
1tbsp EWCs
1/2tsp Kelp Meal
1tsp Fish Hydro(Neptunes Harvest)
1tsp Hi-P Bat Guano
1tsp Molasses*

Bubble for 18-24hrs and whalaa! Chunky buds! I'll post some pics tomorrow!


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## Cann (Apr 21, 2013)

"ancient forest" is basically peat moss...with the price jacked to insane levels. id slash that from the mix and replace it with quality compost or EWC. 1tbsp EWC/gal isn't going to cut it....

also, EWC and vermicompost aren't the same thing. just wanted to clarify that. vermicompost is better IMO


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2013)

can't seem to find this *

1/4cup "Ancient forest" compost​




*


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## Rising Moon (Apr 22, 2013)

Ancient Forest subsitute:

Go out to your local patch of OLD trees, and dig up some humus from around them.


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## Rrog (Apr 22, 2013)

Good point Moon.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 22, 2013)

It's cost me $16 for .5 cu ft of it but on Amazon it's $30!
So maybe at your local store it's cheaper??
But you could def. try what RM said!


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 22, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> can't seem to find this *
> 
> 1/4cup "Ancient forest" compost​
> *
> ...


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## Rising Moon (Apr 22, 2013)

I got the idea from a style of farming called "Korean Natural Farming". Fascinating stuff, and widely practiced in Hawaii, as well as Korea, Japan and India from my understanding...

[video=youtube;xOO1_jNKbKw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOO1_jNKbKw[/video]


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## Rrog (Apr 22, 2013)

He's a nice fellow. I've bought products from him and have also referenced his videos. Especially his biochar video.


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## st0wandgrow (Apr 22, 2013)

Cann said:


> "ancient forest" is basically peat moss...with the price jacked to insane levels. id slash that from the mix and replace it with quality compost or EWC. 1tbsp EWC/gal isn't going to cut it....
> 
> *also, EWC and vermicompost aren't the same thing. just wanted to clarify that. vermicompost is better IMO*


Can you clarify this Cann? 

I'm using worms to compost veggie/fruit scraps and other stuff. Their secretions are castings .... at what point is the organic matter considered "vermicompost" and not ewc?


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 22, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Can you clarify this Cann?
> 
> I'm using worms to compost veggie/fruit scraps and other stuff. Their secretions are castings .... at what point is the organic matter considered "vermicompost" and not ewc?


http://www.redwormcomposting.com/worm-castings/worm-castings-vs-vermicompost-whats-the-diff/ 

*edit- meant to ask the same thing but didn't get around too it. But I do see that theres a slight difference now.

Technically vermicompost is soil composted with worms and worm castings are just the castings.


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## Rrog (Apr 22, 2013)

The Vermicompost has advantages over pure castings. The VC has castings obiously, but the not-quite-composted VC has great benefits also, such as a high AEC (Anion Exchange Capacity). Just like fresh charcoal carbon.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 22, 2013)

I agree. This is why I shovel my finished compost into bins and introduce worms, BD preps and let them do thier thing with it for a few months. 

Ive only got about a 5 gallon bucket left of this magic stuff, and its all saved for teas. Luckly, I have a pile just about ready to get my final treatments before I put it in bins like described above. Reguardless, time to get composting everyone! The season is here!


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## Rrog (Apr 22, 2013)

... I'm moving... but that's a good thing


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 22, 2013)

wow, just trying to be a sponge on this thread... wow. so much good stuff. I did get myself a composter, is it equal parts green and brown? Any good basic guidelines on this?

In the interim I acquired the following: Black Gold Organic Compost, OMRI, which I will use as the compost base for next High P bat guano brew. Having a difficult time locating kelp meal and the fish stuff. 

So disregarding warning about using what I concocted, I diluted to 2.6 gallon brew from 1 gal originally. Then I took half a liter (500ml) of the special dark brew I created, poured out lightly on top of soil in circles covering all the surface. Then 4 hours later I applied rain water 500ml to surface soil in same manner. That was 24 hours ago.

Here she is now.keep in mind she sits in 3 dry gallon of part black gold potting soil and super soil in a cloth pot that resides on top of a passive hydro system, so two thirds of her roots sit in a combination of silica rock and water, plenty air in those silica rocks. So the upper layer of the root zone is in the soil I poured my tea onto.

She is not showing any ill effects..


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 23, 2013)

http://hightimes.com/read/organic-solutionscompost-teas-healthy-plants


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 23, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> *
> 1 gal h20(dechlorinated)
> 1/4cup "Ancient forest" compost
> 1tbsp EWCs
> ...


I got my kelp meal and I also found the Fish hydrolyzed, but not at a local store
http://www.neptunesharvest.com/hf-136.html

What is the difference between this and other Neptune's other products such 
organic seaweed and the fish and seaweed fertilizer? 

Is there any reason I could not use this in my tea? 
http://www.growmore.com/products/type/seaweed-extract.html for Fish Hydro.

Oh yeah where are those dank pics you promised to post..


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 23, 2013)

48 hours after strong dark strange brew applied...


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 23, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> I got my kelp meal and I also found the Fish hydrolyzed, but not at a local store
> http://www.neptunesharvest.com/hf-136.html
> 
> NICE!
> ...


And here some dankness! 
Some Seedsman White Widow!(2 different plants) 












Some Local Super Lemon Haze





And some cured Delicious Seeds Critical Jack Herer!






I would say check my thread out lol but it's gotten a little outta control! The organic soil thread is still doing ok tho lol, so that one's safe to check out.
Might answer a lot of your questions without you asking! Started out with how I used my FFOF but now I'm using a recycled mix so it's not even that anymore..What it is tho, is everything that I've found relevant regarding the basic of organic growing. Not necessarily farming on the large scale, but just growin indoor in a closet or a spare room.

I would LOVE to be able to compost shit but I don't have that luxury so I'm stuck with buying bagged compost..
About to buy a worm bin here soon tho, so at least that something we can do easily indoors regarding composting...


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 23, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> 48 hours after strong dark strange brew applied...
> 
> View attachment 2628972View attachment 2628975View attachment 2628974


And no discoloration in the leaves??? So much plant that is!


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 23, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> And no discoloration in the leaves??? So much plant that is!


And the real kicker she is rooted in 3 gal of soil in a cloth pot that sits on a reservoir (silica rock and h20). That is the top 1/3 of her root mass, the lower 2/3 has grown down into the water silica rock mix that resides under the cloth pot onto of it.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 23, 2013)

Hmmm...Gonna have to see what ingenuity can do after all haha 

Thinking about just putting my smarts on a bed of perlite or something similar so that I don't have to use catch trays! Maybe get some of those tuppeware things that go under the bed??


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 23, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Hmmm...Gonna have to see what ingenuity can do after all haha
> 
> Thinking about just putting my smarts on a bed of perlite or something similar so that I don't have to use catch trays! Maybe get some of those tuppeware things that go under the bed??


Just of course make it something opaque, wouldn't want light causing bad bacteria to grow. I use silica rock for it traps air and keeps the water reservoir aerated without a pump. It also helps that there is a 1/4 gap between cloth pot and container helping to trap air an that 1/3 of roots in the top zone in soil where they can get air as well.

My bucket has a drainage hole right above the preferred water line which should be slightly below the surface of the rock, whereas the cloth pot sits on wet rock not in water. Allowing wicking to occur in the soil above.


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## Budologist420 (Apr 26, 2013)

Have a question about making teas, I'm wondering if I can brew a successful tea using tap water that has been oxygenated overnight to dechlorinate it? I've got a 60 gallon drum that I fill with water and have a air pump with 3 air stones attached to it that are oxygenating the water overnight, similar to this video.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_695SfZY9QA


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## Rising Moon (Apr 26, 2013)

I don't think you should have any trouble Bud, there are a few chemicals commonly used that may or may not evaporate out, but either way, if you have good compost, and reasonably clean water, you can brew teas. Rainwater is really good as well, and I also know many hydro stores near me that sell some cool filter systems (small boy) that you can hook to your hose or faucet, for like $100. Add the optional Chloramine filter and your really brewing some good.


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## Budologist420 (Apr 26, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> I don't think you should have any trouble Bud, there are a few chemicals commonly used that may or may not evaporate out, but either way, if you have good compost, and reasonably clean water, you can brew teas. Rainwater is really good as well, and I also know many hydro stores near me that sell some cool filter systems (small boy) that you can hook to your hose or faucet, for like $100. Add the optional Chloramine filter and your really brewing some good.


Ya I have a small boy dechlorinator but it just takes too damn long to fill up a 60 gallon drum, I work 40 hours a week and don't have time every day to wait for the drum to fill up.


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## NickNasty (Apr 27, 2013)

Budologist420 said:


> Ya I have a small boy dechlorinator but it just takes too damn long to fill up a 60 gallon drum, I work 40 hours a week and don't have time every day to wait for the drum to fill up.


Get yourself a float valve and put it on your drum that way you always have 60 gallons waiting and ready.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 27, 2013)

Budologist420 said:


> Have a question about making teas, I'm wondering if I can brew a successful tea using tap water that has been oxygenated overnight to dechlorinate it? I've got a 60 gallon drum that I fill with water and have a air pump with 3 air stones attached to it that are oxygenating the water overnight, similar to this video.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_695SfZY9QA




Hell yea boss! You'll be good! I only oxygenate my tap water a couple hours before, which is all it calls for in any text that i've ever read!


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## NickNasty (Apr 27, 2013)

Chlorine will dissipate fairly fast, chloramine will not, BUT if you use worm castings or compost in your tea then they most likely have humic acid in them. Since humic acid neutralizes chloramine I coming to believe that it is a moot point. Also ascorbic acid ( vitamin C ) neutralizes chloramine/chlorine so you could add a bit of that to your tea. They also have vitamin C shower head filters that you could probably use as a wand so you can use just your pressurized city tap on your soil without worrying about the chloramine/chlorine killing your soil life.


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 27, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> And no discoloration in the leaves??? So much plant that is!


Going start new brew today. Already started fungi process (6 days) with my compost, ewc and bat guano mix combined. 
Next going to add humic acid, kelp meal, and rock phosphate. Then brew minimum of 18 hours before use. 
While remaining in the brew bucket with how long can this tea last while aerating? 

Flowers looking nice these pics are 4 days after watering with tea that had warning label on it.. "NOT FOR WEAK ASS BITCHES"
View attachment 2633922View attachment 2633924View attachment 2633925View attachment 2633936


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 27, 2013)

Use it within 18-24 hours. Have to keep adding to it to keep it aerobic if you bubble it longer.
But hey, I told you I wouldn't have used that last tea and look what happened....
Looks like a perfectly happy plant from where I'm standing. 

I bet she wishes she was outdoor looking like that!


----------



## DANKSWAG (Apr 27, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Use it within 18-24 hours. Have to keep adding to it to keep it aerobic if you bubble it longer.
> But hey, I told you I wouldn't have used that last tea and look what happened....
> Looks like a perfectly happy plant from where I'm standing.
> 
> I bet she wishes she was outdoor looking like that!


yeah... i do to wish outdoors was an option..maybe someday soon.
nonetheless i think the key thing is i didn't give her an excess of tonic... just 500ml 1/2 liter...
but she did drink and well all is good


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 27, 2013)

keep adding more sugar?


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 27, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> keep adding more sugar?


Compost and a tad bit of Molasses. like a couple drops of it! It goes a LONG way


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## gabuuuth (Apr 30, 2013)

i'm making this compost, like a worms + sugar muscovado + bone meal... but performance low. in my next step adding humic and fulvic acids + fish fertilizer (maybe i put birds guano). what i do for more performance ? this sugar its derivative cana-de-açugar and preserve great part of molasses. carbo for microbiology.


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## Sincerely420 (Apr 30, 2013)

Wayyyy tooo confused by your posting haha so I don't really know where to start.

Are you trying to make a tea just jump start your compost?!


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## Budologist420 (May 1, 2013)

Does anyone have a few links to some awesome, basic, compost teas?


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## Rising Moon (May 1, 2013)

No links, just years of experience...

1/2 cup of QUALITY compost or worm castings per gallon of water

1/4 cup dried Stinging Nettle

1/4 cup dried Comfrey

1/4 cup dried Red Clover Blossoms

2 tbs Molasses

(all herbs available in bulk for cheap at any good health food store, Chamomile, Yarrow, Valerian, Dandelion, Alfalfa, Horsetail and Borage can also be added for diversity)

Bubble for 24 hours.

Use @ 1:2, 1:5 or 1:10 depending.

(feed left-overs from tea to your worms, or compost/top dress them)


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## kushking42 (May 1, 2013)

Budologist420 said:


> Does anyone have a few links to some awesome, basic, compost teas?



www.microbeorganics.com recipes for 50 gallon brewer @ the bottom


edit: Rising Moon knows his shit


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## Sincerely420 (May 1, 2013)

Budologist420 said:


> Does anyone have a few links to some awesome, basic, compost teas?


Microbe organics will give you the ratios you need from the man himself bro! 
Depends the on what size you wanna brew as to how much you wanna add of course.

His link calls for he following per gallon:
1.3cup compost
1.75 tbsp Molasses
1.5 tbsp Neptunes Harvest Fish Hydro
1.75 tsp Kelp Meal
1.5 tbsp Rock Phosphate(I used Hi-P Btu Guano here as I don't have Rock Phosphate)

Thats a basic balanced recipe! You next decision is how long you wanna brew.
Longer(24-48hrs) if you wanna cycle the nutrients in the tea and make it more of a bottle nute type concauction, shorter(18-24hrs) to just use is to introduce the bennies!
I would have thought you were already on AACTs given what those bushes or yours are looking like!


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## Budologist420 (May 1, 2013)

^ I've been getting those bushes with just tap water haha can't wait to start introducing teas.


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## kushking42 (May 1, 2013)

heard your municipality started introducing flouride this year Bud. gonna need to get yourself a good filtration system.


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## Sincerely420 (May 1, 2013)

Wait till you see what the teas do to your buds bro! 







They stink to HIGH HELL! And they look the part too! 
3oz per plant on 12/12 FS is the deal!
*pics of Seedsman White Widow nug after 4 days drying!


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## kushking42 (May 1, 2013)

^lol its not a magic elixir dude already grows dank!


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## Sincerely420 (May 1, 2013)

It is a magic elixir and yeah I know this bro. Lol. I've been following him!


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## woody333333 (May 1, 2013)




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## woody333333 (May 1, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Yep lol, a lil bit of this and a lil bit of that....Not too much of that tho....then Whalaa!
> 
> You plants will grow noticeable within a few hours after using it! EVERYTIME!


----------



## woody333333 (May 1, 2013)




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## woody333333 (May 1, 2013)

im done now


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## yankeegreen (May 2, 2013)

Spring is finally here in the Great White North and Nature has already provided a bountiful harvest for tea extract! Dandelions are the season's first.


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## Sincerely420 (May 2, 2013)

[h=2]Compost Tea Recipes[/h] [h=3]If you are using a municipal source of water, aerate the water for 15-20 min prior to adding ingredients. This will evaporate the chlorine from your water. [/h] *To prevent foaming, add 1 tsp. vegetable oil.*
** = optional ingredients*

*Bacterial Tea*


4 cups Earthworm Castings or other forms of bacterially dominated compost
2 tbsp. molasses or other complex liquid sugars (honey, agave, natural syrups,or fruit juices)
.5 oz Soluble Kelp
*1-2 oz. (2-4 tbsp.) liquid plant extract (made from comfrey, nettle, or dandelion)
*.5 oz Fish Hydrolysate
4-5 gal Chlorine-free Water 
 [h=3]Brew for 24 - 48 hours and apply to root or leaf zone; tea must be kept aerated until it is applied.[/h] [h=3][/h] *Balanced Tea (Bacteria to Fungi)*


2 cups Earthworm Castings or other forms of bacterially dominated compost
2 cups Humus or other form of fungi dominated compost
.5 oz Soluble Kelp
.5 oz Fish Hydrolysate
1 oz Humic Acids
*1-2 oz. (2-4 tbl.) liquid plant extract (made from comfrey, nettle, or dandelion) 
4-5 gal Chlorine-free Water
 [h=3]Brew for 12 - 48 hours and apply within 72; tea must be kept aerated until it is applied. [/h] [h=3][/h] *Fungi Tea*


4 cups Humus or mature fungi dominated compost
1 oz Humic Acids
.5 oz Fish Hydrolysate
.5 oz Soluble Kelp
*1 tbsp. Rock Phosphate Powder
*2-3 tbsp. flour (oat or wheat)
 4-5 gal Chlorine-free Water
 [h=3]Brew for 24-48 hours and apply within 72; tea must be aerated up until it is applied. To increase the fungal biomass, treat compost with .5 oz kelp, .25 oz Fish Hydrolysate 24-48 hours before brewing.[/h] [h=3][/h] *Other Tea Blends*
[h=3]*Guano Tea*[/h] 

4 - 8 tbl. Bat or Seabird Guano of choice
*2 tbsp. complex liquid sugars (molasses, honey, agave, natural syrups,or fruit juices)
*.5 oz Soluble Kelp
4-5 gal Chlorine-free Water
 [h=3]Brew for 12 - 48 hours; tea must be kept aerated until it is applied. Apply to root zone.[/h] [h=3][/h] *Alfalfa Tea*


1 cup ground Alfalfa meal
* 1 - 4 cups Earthworm Castings or mature compost
*2 tbsp. molasses or other complex liquid sugars
*.5 oz Soluble Kelp
4-5 gal Chlorine-free Water
 [h=3]Brew for 12 - 24 hours; tea must be kept aerated until it is applied. Apply to root zone. Alfalfa tea is good source of vitamins A and B; Folic acids, Amino acids, crude proteins, high Nitrogen(N), phosphorus(P), potassium(K), calcium(Ca), magnesium(Mg), sulphur(S), Manganese(Mn), iron(Fe), copper(Cu), boron(B), and zinc(Zn).[/h] [h=3][/h] *Liquid Plant Extract*


5 Gallon Garden Tea Brewer 
Young Comfrey, Nettle, and/or Dandelion leaves
4-5galChlorine-free Water
 [h=3]Instructions: Fill a 5 gallon bucket (loosely) with chopped/ crushed young Comfrey, Nettle, or Dandelion leaves. Faster fermentation will occur if the stems and leaves are bruised. Fill the rest of the bucket with chlorine free water, cover, place in a shaded area, and brew for 2 weeks in warm weather (70 - 90% water temp) or 4-5 weeks in cool weather (50 - 70%). This mix can sit without active aeration and ferment with time. Warning! If making plant extracted teas without active aeration, teas will smell like an open sewer throughout fermentation and when finished. The end product will be a dark concentrated liquid fertilizer. After the fermentation period strain liquid and squeeze the remnants to extract as much juice as possible. Feed the solid wastes to your compost pile. Filter and store tea in a cool dark place or in refrigeration. All of the above listed plant extracts are an excellent stand-alone fertilizer for many annuals and perennials.[/h] 

 *Comfrey *tea is a good source of vitamin A and C; calcium(Ca), phosphorus(P), potassium(K), along with many trace minerals.
 *Nettle *tea is good source of vitamins A, C, and K; calcium(Ca), magnesium(Mg), phosphorus(P), potassium(K), boron(B), bromine(Br), copper(Cu), iron(Fe), selenium(Se), silicon(Si), and zinc(Zn).
*Dandelion *tea is a good source of vitamins A and C, calcium(Ca), and potassium(K).
 [h=3]Application: Filtered liquid extracts should be diluted to a tea color, at a rate of 1 tsp. tea extract to 1 gallon chlorine-free water. Plant extracts can be diluted at ratios up to 15:1 depending on maturity and phase of plant growth (1 part filtered extract to 15 parts water). [/h]


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## Sincerely420 (May 2, 2013)

yankeegreen said:


> Spring is finally here in the Great White North and Nature has already provided a bountiful harvest for tea extract! Dandelions are the season's first.
> 
> View attachment 2640670 View attachment 2640671


Was just looking around at what you would use the dandys for and I just came across the read I just shared.
But you mind sharing your logic in using them bro and how you do so?
I know it helps that you got a free supply too lol


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## yankeegreen (May 2, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Was just looking around at what you would use the dandys for and I just came across the read I just shared.
> But you mind sharing your logic in using them bro and how you do so?
> I know it helps that you got a free supply too lol


Dandelion are a deep-root weed and are a good source of vitamins A and C, calcium and Potassium[FONT=times new roman, times]. Not as good as complete as comfrey or nettles, but as you noted, they are a gift and widely available!

At least a couple ways to prepare: 

- Take the leaves, stems and flowers (some include the roots), steep them in water few weeks (covered), Pour off the liquid as your extract, dilute and use. 
- Another way is to prepare a bucket (5 gal works for me) by drilling some holes in the bottom. Bruise the leaves, stems and flowers first, then dump them in the bucket (with no added water) til the bucket is full. Put something heavy (brick?) on top of the pile to add pressure and cover. Put the bucket inside another bucket without holes to catch the goodness as nature breaks it down. Put the two buckets in a sunny spot. Take concentrate as needed or harvest at one time.[/FONT]


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## Sincerely420 (May 2, 2013)

Cheers boss 

What up the smell from making extracts? Do you get anything unworthy of being inside lol?
Def. about to break my extract cherry with this next run!


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## yankeegreen (May 2, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Cheers boss
> 
> What up the smell from making extracts? Do you get anything unworthy of being inside lol?
> Def. about to break my extract cherry with this next run!


Yeah, steeping green stuff can get pretty vile. The 2nd method in the post below is far less smelly than the first, more concentrated extract but much lower yield. I use dandelion tea on my veggies and am moving toward totally organic MJ growing style. Adding Yarrow, Stinging Nettle and Borage to my legit garden this year.


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## Sincerely420 (May 2, 2013)

Damnit.......I was guessing it could....
Think I'll have to hit the drawing boards to figure out what I'll do about it....I need all things to be indoor friendly pretty much..
Maybe just get a little indoor composter with a carbon filter??

And I'm def. gonna delve into the comfrey and nettle! I pick a little bit up about those earlier on in this thread..

FYI WORLD, MARYLAND IS OFFICIALLY THE 19TH STATE LEGAL FOR MEDICAL PURPOSES!

That's progress for your ASS!


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## NickNasty (May 2, 2013)

To make a good fungal tea you should really give the fungus a head start before adding it to your tea to do this take oat bran or if you have pets dry dog or cat food and grind it up and moisten it and let it sit for a few days. You will see fungus start to grow on it and soon it will be like a chunk of fungus break up the chunk and add that to the tea. Dry dog or cat food are also good compost activators.

Note: you want to see white fungus not black.


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## dl290485 (May 5, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> * store tea in a cool dark place or in refrigeration.*


How long can an aerated Nettle extract be stored in a dark place or refrigerator? Is this something that can be made somewhat ahead of time or is it another short term make then use situation?


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## Sincerely420 (May 5, 2013)

Use the tea within the first 4 hours after you stop the brew bro!
You don't really wanna store them, you wanna use them RIGHT AWAY!


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## hyroot (May 5, 2013)

I just made a tea with compost and molasses and that's it. I'm out of kelp and worm castings. I don't buy humic acids. They are already in compost. The end result of composting anything is humus / humic acid. Same thing.




Sincerely420 said:


> FYI WORLD, MARYLAND IS OFFICIALLY THE 19TH STATE LEGAL FOR MEDICAL PURPOSES!
> 
> That's progress for your ASS!


Its been medical there fr a couple years. But unlike cali, az, oregon, washington, nevada, michigan, and Colorado. You have to have a debilitating disease that's on their list. To qualify to be a patient. Same thing with all the other medical States.

When new York goes legal. I'm moving there


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## dl290485 (May 6, 2013)

Learning to ACT...


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## Sincerely420 (May 6, 2013)

What? really? Maybe you're a little confused and thinkin about D.C?


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## Sincerely420 (May 6, 2013)

dl290485 said:


> Learning to ACT...
> View attachment 2644753


To grow mass chunky pungent buds easier, or to not bro?!


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## hyroot (May 6, 2013)

http://norml.org/laws/item/maryland-medical-marijuana?category_id=


The new amendment that recently passed is about collectives. Medical passed in 2003 then amended in 2011.


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## Sincerely420 (May 6, 2013)

So...It's was decriminalized a couple years back and they're gonna move to putting together a medical panel this year.

"Members of the commission will decide which patients will qualify for the programs and will license growers to provide cannabis for therapeutic purposes. The law takes effect on October 1, 2013. However, no state-sanctioned research programs are expected to be operational until 2015 or later."...

Suck they tak so damn long to get the simplest things done man...Draft Maines laws for Gods sake....right?


----------



## woody333333 (May 6, 2013)

the land of lincoln is next........if u can believe that


----------



## hyroot (May 6, 2013)

new york is going through all the panel bullshit too. The whole state, mayors, city council, congress, senate all want medical but the governor is against it. they are supposed to have legalization on the ballot on the next mid term elections. I'm sure it will pass... Im over cali


I top dressed with compost (ecoscraps) last week. Watered with a molasses solution then and watered with a compost tea last night. So will see the difference when they wake up. One batch is ending its 7th week and another ending its 2nd week.


my brocolli, romaine lettuce, and avocado love the top dressing with molasses solution. Im going to add worms to those eventually. My little avocado tree already has them


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## hyroot (May 6, 2013)

The girls woke up a coupe hours ago. 1 plant ending 7th week, quite a few leaves turned yellow over night. All the buds swelled by 1/2 inch in width. The other side ending week 2, I had to raise the light. A few grew into it. The buds seem to be developing sooner. I think the 730 and 760 IR I added has something to do with it. At least partially


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## DANKSWAG (May 7, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> So...It's was decriminalized a couple years back and they're gonna move to putting together a medical panel this year.
> 
> "Members of the commission will decide which patients will qualify for the programs and will license growers to provide cannabis for therapeutic purposes. The law takes effect on October 1, 2013. However, no state-sanctioned research programs are expected to be operational until 2015 or later."...
> 
> Suck they tak so damn long to get the simplest things done man...Draft Maines laws for Gods sake....right?


It's Maryland, where our do nothing by partisan bitching government operates on the national level. Like duh nothing is moving quick there.


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## Sincerely420 (May 7, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> It's Maryland, where our do nothing by partisan bitching government operates on the national level. Like duh nothing is moving quick there.


Nothing is moving fast anywhere right now. There's a black man in the white house.
That still not sitting right with too many ppl. Everything is a fight. Everything is drawn out..
Nationally, nothing is happening. State wise, shit it hitting the fan across the nation.
There's a much better chance of things happening faster. 2015 would be better than Ct.


----------



## DANKSWAG (May 7, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Nothing is moving fast anywhere right now. There's a black man in the white house.
> That still not sitting right with too many ppl. Everything is a fight. Everything is drawn out..
> Nationally, nothing is happening. State wise, shit it hitting the fan across the nation.
> There's a much better chance of things happening faster. 2015 would be better than Ct.


I dispute that, here in the state of Washington we are moving forward. Law passed 502 legalizing recreational use is on track to be fully implemented by the date the new law stipulates.


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## esaw1966 (May 12, 2013)

Using compost tea.by xtreem .its 2 cups per feeding see youtube if interested puffnstuff101


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## gabuuuth (May 14, 2013)

whats up Sincerely, sup 

its my first time making super soil, and do you watering this mix? before transplanting...

one month break down and watering during that ?!


wrong way to post, but can't find this info.. thank you


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## Sincerely420 (May 14, 2013)

I'm kinda confused by your English bossman! But are you asking if you water while you're super soil is cooking?
I water mine maybe 2 or 3 times during the months period. I start the cooking of with an ACT then maybe give them plain water, once or twice over the course of that month.
Hopefully that what you mean bro.


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## GrowBrooklyn (May 14, 2013)

If you follow subcool's recipe, he adds a small amount of water once after mixing the soil and putting it in garbage cans to cook. When Super Soil is cooking, the general guideline is that you do not need to water it. If you live somewhere dry, add water if it starts to dry out. The soil should only be damp, not soaked or you will get anaerobic bacteria.


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## gabuuuth (May 15, 2013)

rofl... english bossman laughing out loud  

but, exactly that. i'm cooking super soil for my next step, do following subcools its awesome.

btw, good job its nice op.


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## kushking42 (May 23, 2013)

thought id post my little brew station with the tea aficionados ova here. microbial source is half castings and half peat/native from my flower beds. food source consists of kelp meal,organic gem, molasses and azomite.

providing bubbles in each barrel is one 70 and a 110 litre pump. custom made rod diffuser in the tea bag (he he) and some stones on the bottom


View attachment 2669531View attachment 2669532


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## Cann (May 27, 2013)

lol jesus KK that shit looks complicated? little green clips everywhere and such...

so many wires LOL looks like the ceiling of my flower tent...

i'm sure it cranks out some nice teas though 

what is your tea application schedule out of curiosity? what kind of teas/how often, etc.


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## kushking42 (May 27, 2013)

Cann, nah its not complicated those clips just keep everything in place while the the tea is bubbling. bamboo and clamps i happened to have a lot of, so i used them. and once i started clamping, i couldnt stop. lol

the 110l pump pushes air through the larger diameter tubing with the pvc rod diffusuer (2' long 3/4" pvc with barbed, threaded fitting on one end and a cap on the other end) that sits in the bag. the 70l pump is for the smaller tubing which has small stones sitting at the bottom of the barrels. 

i make aact once or twice per month and pretty much alternate between microbemans recipe a/b


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## dirtsurfr (Jun 22, 2013)

Thanks kushking, I went out and built me a bag suspender good idea.


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## kushking42 (Jun 27, 2013)

dirtsurfr said:


> Thanks kushking, I went out and built me a bag suspender good idea.


that looks a lot cleaner ill have to make a couple of those. good idea!


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## dirtsurfr (Jun 27, 2013)

Let me know if you need a closer shot of it, I used wire fencing was easy.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 28, 2013)

dirtsurfr said:


> Let me know if you need a closer shot of it, I used wire fencing was easy.


Did you have to drill holes in the side of your bucket to attach those wires dirtsrufr?

That's a good idea. I'm gonna have to come up with something like that.


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## dirtsurfr (Jun 28, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Did you have to drill holes in the side of your bucket to attach those wires dirtsrufr?
> 
> That's a good idea. I'm gonna have to come up with something like that.


Heres some closer shots.
This 
made from this
to look like this. Notice the ends are bent to hold it in the 5 gal. bucket.
does this help??


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## allochthonous (Aug 29, 2013)

WOW 
123 pages later and I'm finally done... I have only been growing/ researching for about a month now, and I must say once I found the organics section... well I've been hooked. 

More than anything I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. I enjoyed all the discussions/ debates from beginning to end. Now, my whole concept about growing has changed, as organic seems to be the smartest way to grow. Boy am I tired, so THANK YOU ALL. The organic area has opened my eyes to the way we should be growing, and now back to researching.
--AL


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## VTMi'kmaq (Sep 11, 2013)

here's bat guano aact tea fed sea of seeds freebie in 16 days of flower. Obviously a heavy sat dom strain here, lol lost my label off of it somehow so im guessing its one of my sleestacks? Anyway just wanted to share with the soil food web guys my accomplishments using what ive learned here!


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## MedicalGuy (Sep 30, 2013)

What do you guys think about Myco Gro? http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/mycogrow-soluble-1-lb.html?
I was thinking about innoculating my AACT, (compost tea) with a pinch of this. Think that is too much? 
My recipe for flowering tea is:
1tablespoon all natural molasses 
20 drops CaMg+ By general organiocs, or cmparable liquid mineral supplement
1 tabespoon dry, all organic, all purpose fertilizer (with N-P-K ratios close to 5-5-5
1 tablespoon kelp meal
1teaspoon dry high nitrogen bat/bird guano (with npk ratios close to 12-8-2)
1teaspoon dry high phosphorous bat/bird guano (with npk ratios close to 0-5-0 or 1-10-0)
1teaspoon liquid fish fertilizer (with N-P-K ratios close to5-1-1 or 3-3-0.3
1/4 cup Big Bloom by fox farm
BUBBLE THIS FOR 24 HOURS THAN ADD
1/2 to 1 cup fresh compost or earthworm castings
BUBBLE FOR AN ADDITIONAL 24 HOURS

and my veg tea is:
1tablespoon all natural molasses
1tablespoon kelp meal
1tablespoon alfalfa meal
1tablespoon dry all purpose fertilizer
2teaspoons liquid fish fertilizer
2teaspoons dry-high n bird or bat guano
1teaspoon dry soluble kelp or seaweed
BUBBLE FOR 24 HOURS THEN ADD
1cup of fresh earthworm castings or fresh healthy compost
1/4 cup composted steer( or composted barnyard)manure
BUBBLE FOR AN ADDITIONAL 24HOURS

any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 30, 2013)

Medical Guy- Mycorrhizae fungi do not multiply in an ACT. You would be better off adding the Myco Grow to the root zone when you transplant.

As for your teas, I'm sure they will be fine. IMO, you have it backwards though. You would be better off adding the compost (and molasses) first and bubbling for 24 hours, and then adding the rest of your ingredients and bubbling for an additional 12'ish hours. You will get a good jump on microbial multiplication with the compost and molasses before adding other ingredients because the optimal time for an ACT is 36 hours, and some of the food stocks you are adding may suppress this. Check out this website for some good info.....

http://microbeorganics.com/


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## MedicalGuy (Oct 1, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Medical Guy- Mycorrhizae fungi do not multiply in an ACT. You would be better off adding the Myco Grow to the root zone when you transplant.
> 
> As for your teas, I'm sure they will be fine. IMO, you have it backwards though. You would be better off adding the compost (and molasses) first and bubbling for 24 hours, and then adding the rest of your ingredients and bubbling for an additional 12'ish hours. You will get a good jump on microbial multiplication with the compost and molasses before adding other ingredients because the optimal time for an ACT is 36 hours, and some of the food stocks you are adding may suppress this. Check out this website for some good info.....
> 
> http://microbeorganics.com/


Thanks man. I am new to organics. I was a hydro grower for some time. It is kind of exiting to be learning something new again.


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## OrganicsRus (Oct 20, 2013)

MedicalGuy said:


> What do you guys think about Myco Gro? http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/mycogrow-soluble-1-lb.html?
> I was thinking about innoculating my AACT, (compost tea) with a pinch of this. Think that is too much?
> My recipe for flowering tea is:
> 1tablespoon all natural molasses
> ...


I see someones been reading The Revs recipes for tea, I use the same mix aswell n it works wonders for me!


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 13, 2013)

Hey if I am making teas, which looks like I need and want to do for I am tired of buying organic tea in a bottle and cal/mg, kelp, fish and other similar bottled organic nutrients.

I really want to get away from buying anything I need to feed my plants that is marketed in a plastic bottle for me to overpay for! PERIOD! 

So anywise I came across this and was thinking.... YEAH BABY YEAH had me a ORGANICISM vision of a tremendous bloom of beneficial microbes nestling comfortably in my soil web...

DankSwag
Grow On My Friends Grow On


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 14, 2013)

MedicalGuy said:


> What do you guys think about Myco Gro? http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/mycogrow-soluble-1-lb.html?
> I was thinking about innoculating my AACT, (compost tea) with a pinch of this. Think that is too much?
> My recipe for flowering tea is:
> 1tablespoon all natural molasses
> ...


You can brew fungi dominate brew. The best way you can do this is to start with a small shovel of soil from a nearby forest or acquire fungi dominant compost. 
When you use soil from fungi dominant resource such as a forest as mentioned this will increase diversity and give you a boarder range of beneficial fungi. The soil will act as a biological catalyst an organic activator. 

Ensure temps when brewing are 68-70 PERIOD! H20 sans Chloride. Therefore bubble your 5 gallons h20 24 hours prior to adding fungi dominant soil \ compost.
Also you want to give the fungi a head start before adding fungi dominate soil\compost for it will have bacteria in it as well competing in your brew. So moisten some of that fungi dominate soil compost say 1/2 cup in a clean torn up white tea-shirt (pardon the tea pun) or sock, sprinkle fungi food on it, that would be baby oatmeal(simple protien) no dyes in cloth! Sit this in a container in dark no light room temp for 3 to 5 days. Fungi will build bubble this first with
Also when straining tea use 400 micro or paint strainer from hardware store. Do not use pillow cases or other clothing items for they will strain out the good stuff too!
You can also add soluble packaged mychorrhiza when watering with tea as well to add to the number that you obtained by pre growing them with the simple protein. As long as they have food and initially outnumber the bacteria that will outgrow them and compete you should be able to add a good number in your tea.

I would try to keep the receipe very very simple when trying to promote fungi dominate or balanced tea.

So to recap for Fungi Dominate.
Locate and obtain fungi dominate soil\compost
Have a tailgate party with fungi prior to going to the bowl game with bacteria (this is where you pre grow bacteria as described above)
5 gallon h20 sans chloride bubbled 24 hours before adding ingredients.
Add compost to water that was in damp cloth that has fungi growing on it .. It should appear as a white web.
Add 2 ounces humic acids
Add 1 ounce Kelp
Add 2 tablespoons baby oatmeal
Add 2 teaspoons yucca extract no additives or preservatives (optional)

Note this is FUNGI Dominate recipe, you should shoot for balance fungi\bacteria
Therefore when it comes to soil\compost selection something from garden mixed with forest?
Also you will need to add 1 ounce molasses to feed bacteria. Remember your fungi are pre grown and your just continuing to feed them in solution till you apply it!
Don't let it go longer then 36 hours for you will lose fungi to ever growing bacteria.

Let me know how it goes....
DankSawg
Grow On My Friends Grow On


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 14, 2013)

I look for twigs/bark/etc in my compost that are covered in mycelium when I am brewing a fungal dominant tea. 

Then I blend my organic gluten free oats in a blender with some aloe and un chlorinated water, and moisten my mycelium laden compost with the fungal food (oats and aloe). This gets set somewhere warm (75-82) and dark for 3-5 days in a bucket with a loose lid. 

Once it is covered in new mycelium, I throw it in a paint strainer and brew it along with a little kelp. This happens in a counterclockwise vortex brewer for about 18 hours.


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## NickNasty (Nov 14, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Hey if I am making teas, which looks like I need and want to do for I am tired of buying organic tea in a bottle and cal/mg, kelp, fish and other similar bottled organic nutrients.
> 
> I really want to get away from buying anything I need to feed my plants that is marketed in a plastic bottle for me to overpay for! PERIOD!
> 
> ...


Very cool got a link? I bet it is just ascorbic acid with a filter on it . They use it to remove chlorine/chloramine from showers.


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## hyroot (Nov 14, 2013)

http://bodymindandsoil.com/farm-garden/


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 17, 2013)

boblawblah421 said:


> I look for twigs/bark/etc in my compost that are covered in mycelium when I am brewing a fungal dominant tea.
> 
> Then I blend my organic gluten free oats in a blender with some aloe and un chlorinated water, and moisten my mycelium laden compost with the fungal food (oats and aloe). This gets set somewhere warm (75-82) and dark for 3-5 days in a bucket with a loose lid.
> 
> Once it is covered in new mycelium, I throw it in a paint strainer and brew it along with a little kelp. This happens in a counterclockwise vortex brewer for about 18 hours.


This is how I used to cultivate and brew, but to my understanding hyphae don't like being broke up and ran through the ringer. Would it just be better to transplant with the fungi cake, rather than brewing it?


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 18, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> This is how I used to cultivate and brew, but to my understanding hyphae don't like being broke up and ran through the ringer. Would it just be better to transplant with the fungi cake, rather than brewing it?


Most definitely. "No till" is the way to go, but sometimes there's no getting around having to pick up a shovel and move some dirt. When this happens it just makes sense to me to do everything I can to repair the microbe colony. In this method a new raised bed/smart pot/etc gets set up in your ideal environment and given a series of teas. Get that colony boomin' well before Miss Marry steps foot into this new home. First I do a nematode/protozoa tea, then a fungal, and finally a bacterial. Meanwhile clones in a different location have been getting seed enzyme teas, coconut water, aloe, kelp, alfalfa, neem, aact, etc.

I tried talking to my plants for years. They never really heard a word I said. Marry just didn't follow orders quite perfectly enough for my standards.

Me and them microbes started hangin' out, and we got to bull shittin'... You'll never guess...

MJ is an eavesdroppin' ass bitch. She took what me and microbes were talking about and fucking ran with that shit.

MJ still doesn't take orders from me. I take orders from her.

Now I boss the microbes around. They know how to follow some god damn instructions I'll tell ya what.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 18, 2013)

boblawblah421 said:


> Most definitely. "No till" is the way to go, but sometimes there's no getting around having to pick up a shovel and move some dirt. When this happens it just makes sense to me to do everything I can to repair the microbe colony. In this method a new raised bed/smart pot/etc gets set up in your ideal environment and given a series of teas. Get that colony boomin' well before Miss Marry steps foot into this new home. First I do a nematode/protozoa tea, then a fungal, and finally a bacterial. Meanwhile clones in a different location have been getting seed enzyme teas, coconut water, aloe, kelp, alfalfa, neem, aact, etc.
> 
> I tried talking to my plants for years. They never really heard a word I said. Marry just didn't follow orders quite perfectly enough for my standards.
> 
> ...


Love it  Nematode tea sounds interesting. Do you just use native land? This is why I'll be making the switch to living mulch. I'm also starting to read more about AACTs that have a higher F:B ratio. IMO seems like living mulch is the easiest, cheapest, and most effective way when your Mary is big enough. I think a balanced tea is fine for a seedling and clone as they takes what they wants.


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 18, 2013)

Pray Tell Dear *boblawblah421,
*

How does one make a...... "....First I do a nematode/protozoa tea"

DankSwag,
Grow Organically My Friends Grown On!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 19, 2013)

Here's an idea Dank,
Nematode farming!!!


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 19, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Love it  Nematode tea sounds interesting. Do you just use native land? This is why I'll be making the switch to living mulch. I'm also starting to read more about AACTs that have a higher F:B ratio. IMO seems like living mulch is the easiest, cheapest, and most effective way when your Mary is big enough. I think a balanced tea is fine for a seedling and clone as they takes what they wants.





DANKSWAG said:


> Pray Tell Dear *boblawblah421,
> *
> 
> How does one make a...... "....First I do a nematode/protozoa tea"
> ...



For my nematode/protozoa tea, I gather a little compost from a few different locations in my pile, as well as a little local soil, also from more than one specific location. This gets thrown in a paint strainer and brewed in my vortex brewer for 12ish hours at around 74-78 degrees F. Apparently, according to Dr. Ingham, omitting any fungal or bacterial food, and brewing in this fashion will yield a tea highest in nematodes and protozoa. 

I also throw a little Earth Compound by the company Progress Earth in there too. This product is a little bit of all that which is of utmost dopeness to an organic farmer, as well as nematodes/protozoa/BTI.


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 19, 2013)

Also...

From what I have read and seen over the years, MJ as a flower reaps the most benefit from a bacterial based aact.

Root growth, on the other hand, benefits most from a fungal based tea.

Hence the series.

My warriors are introduced first. Just to make sure.

Fungi is next. Get them roots boomin.

Bacterial to follow. Watch big buds a bloomin'.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 19, 2013)

boblawblah421 said:


> Also...
> 
> From what I have read and seen over the years, MJ as a flower reaps the most benefit from a bacterial based aact.
> 
> ...


I just finished _Teaming with Microbes._ From what I read, the plant is in control and she takes what she wants. They're like real women lol.


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## medichronic (Nov 23, 2013)

undark said:


> My ladies love the tea I brew for them..
> 
> For a 5 gallon brew:
> 
> ...


so my question is do I filter all the solids out after brew/befor use ?


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## Mohican (Nov 23, 2013)

Yes if you plan to spray them on. Otherwise the solids are good for your soil and plants.


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## medichronic (Nov 23, 2013)

thanks MO,so I am following the ubove recipe ( starting brew tonight ) and am going to use it on my 32 day old mainlined critical sensi star . the soil is the pre-bagged TGA super soil, I switched to 12/12 2 days ago,,,,,,hows it looking ?


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## medichronic (Nov 23, 2013)

one more question....why the 24hr gap between adding components? and will it work if all are added at 1 time ?


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## DANKSWAG (Dec 14, 2013)

boblawblah421 said:


> For my nematode/protozoa tea, I gather a little compost from a few different locations in my pile, as well as a little local soil, also from more than one specific location. This gets thrown in a paint strainer and brewed in my vortex brewer for 12ish hours at around 74-78 degrees F. Apparently, according to Dr. Ingham, omitting any fungal or bacterial food, and brewing in this fashion will yield a tea highest in nematodes and protozoa.
> 
> I also throw a little Earth Compound by the company Progress Earth in there too. This product is a little bit of all that which is of utmost dopeness to an organic farmer, as well as nematodes/protozoa/BTI.



Boblawblah421,

Hey thanks for bringing me to speed on the importance of having protozoa and nematodes working in my soil eating away and discharging (mineralization) N to my plants for feeding. 

So I poked around the CLOUD a little bit and find this little nugget, thought I'd share for it seems really important to keep a proper C:N ratio when it comes to adding compost to established soil, anything above a 20:1 ratio is detrimental to the population of these critters.

The following from:http://www.extension.org/pages/24726/soil-nematodes-in-organic-farming-systems#.UqwHpPRDsXw

 Nitrogen mineralization in the soil occurs at a higher rate when bacterial-feeding nematodes are present than when they are absent. The contribution of bacterial-feeding nematodes to soil N supply depends, in part, on the quality and quantity of soil organic matter fueling the system. Net N mineralization from decomposing organic residues takes place when the carbon:nitrogen (C:N) ratio of organic residue is below 20 (that is, 20 parts C to 1 part N). When the C:N ratio is greater than 30, the rate of mineralization decreases because microbes compete for N to meet their nutritional requirements. In this situation, N is immobilized in the microbial biomass. Incorporation of manure, compost, and cover crops with intermediate C:N ratios (ranging from 10 to 1 may stimulate bacterial growth and the abundance of bacterial-feeding nematodes, and increase soil N availability to plants.


DankSwag


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## D619 (Jan 14, 2014)

Passive hydro is the method I've been using and decided I'm moving towards organic soils only, with out using any chemical bottled nutes. Substainable type method. I've been reading up on this section and other sources of information on aerated compost tea, just started a brew myself. Seems people are quite impressed with the outcome using this approach as a part of thier method of growing. " feed the soil , not the plant ". 

But during my research based on other people's experience, ( not my own, yet ) and reading up on scientific studies, I'm not convinced. Very conflicting information. For example " The Great Compost Tea Debate" between Jeff Gillman and Jeff Lowenfels. A 2-year study by the Rodale Institute and Pennsylvania State University evaluated the use of aerated compost tea." Frank Gouin, agree, adding that even for its nutrient value, compost tea isn't as good as compost itself." Some expert say the reward doesn't outweigh the risk. Some say add mollases, but of course not to much. Some say don't add any sugars at all. E. coli also draws a concern, but seems to be more of a concern with non aerated method of making teas. 

"Master Gardener experiment testing various growth promotion/disease prevention products on vegetables. We planted 5 beds with the same varieties of tomatoes, squash, pole beans, and some other things. Each bed contained the same mix of soil and really good compost. Each bed got a different foliar treatment, applied every 3 weeks. We tested 2 organic commercial fertilizers, ACT using a KIS-brand brewer and their compost tea bags, aspirin water, and a control bed that got only water spray. The compost tea failed miserably in terms of yield and disease prevention. In fact, the plants were stunted & more diseased than might be expected. I havent used the brewer since that season. The winner by a mile  1 tablet of untreated aspirin, dissolved in 1/2 tsp vinegar, per gallon of water, plus a sticker like yucca extract. Unbelievable increases in yield and disease prevention. I also tried the ACT on my roses, hoping it would reduce blackspot. No such luck." 

Then I can read other people's experience who says otherwise. Also read unless you have expensive testing equipment that actually test your teas and what kind of life that actually growing, is a crapshoot. 

Im not trying to cause any controversy here, I'm just trying to understand where is all evidence that substantiates all these claims. A" Feed the soil, not the plant " is what works, it's the approach that gets confusing. 
Well in 36 hours I will be adding " my tea " and sit and watch. Im starting to think just making my own compost and leaving the brewing part alone, but I guess time will tell. I just seeking truth not trying to create drama. So be nice!

Cheers!


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## D619 (Jan 14, 2014)

Compost Tea: Is It Beneficial? - November 2, 2011
Jeff Schalau, Agent, Agriculture & Natural Resources
University of Arizona Cooperative Extension, Yavapai County

The use of compost as a soil amendment has been used for centuries to return essential plant nutrients to cultivated soils (i.e. fertilization). Liquid compost extracts have also been used in this manner. Usually, the compost extract or is made by collecting runoff from a compost pile or placing compost in water and allowing it to soak for several days. Today, we refer to the resulting mixture as non-aerated compost tea or &#8220;NCT&#8221;.


In recent years, aerated compost tea (ACT) has come into popular use. It requires some equipment to maintain an aerobic (oxygenated) environment. While they are marketed as fertilizers, they have more recently been marketed as antimicrobial agents that displace pathogens on the surface of the plant that could cause foliar and fruit disease.


Initially, the popular press and trade journals were quick to sing the praises of ACT using statements like &#8220;beautiful blooms&#8221;, &#8220;delicious fruits and vegetables&#8221; and &#8220;thick green turf&#8221;. The claims also included: &#8220;keep garden plants, turf, and crops free of disease&#8221; and &#8220;provide beneficial organisms&#8221;. These claims seemed to have some substance, but are all claims supported by scientific research. In the case ACT, is has shown positive results in the laboratory, but field studies gave less consistent results.


In reviewing the available literature, Dr. Chalker-Scott found only four controlled studies using ACT. One study stated that NCT was more effective at preventing disease than ACT &#8211; the anaerobic teas worked better than aerobic teas contrary to claims made in non-scientific literature. Another study looked at the fungal disease called apple scab and found that ACT was not effective at preventing it, and in some cases, appeared to enhance apple scab. A third paper reported mixed results in controlling &#8220;damping off&#8221; in cucumbers. The fourth study reported the occurrence of human pathogens where ACTs were used. This last finding is particularly worrisome as human pathogens in food supplies continue to be a major public health concern. These findings do little to support claims that ACT prevents plant disease and raise other larger questions.


Another &#8220;fly in the ointment&#8221; related to compost teas are findings that report excessive nutrients released from compost tea application (NCT and ACT) could cause water pollution. This was the case in six studies reviewed by Dr. Chalker-Scott. Compost applied as a soil amendment and to the soil surface as mulch provides a slow release of nutrients. Conversely, increased levels of nutrients in solution from ACTs and NCTs can contribute to groundwater and/or watershed pollution.


To summarize, plain compost, when used as an amendment or mulch, is most effective at disease suppression and NCTs are also somewhat effective. The use of ACT for disease suppression is not supported by published scientific work. In addition, ACT may contribute to environmental contamination and increase risk of exposure to human pathogens. Given the state of the available science, people should not purchase &#8220;compost tea brewers&#8221; or ready-made &#8220;compost tea&#8221;. Instead, they should purchase or build a suitable composting system that allows them to recycle kitchen and garden waste into compost. Making compost is an art, but the process is also very forgiving.


I also hope this article cultivates critical thinking skills among gardeners.


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## Mohican (Jan 14, 2014)

Start a worm bin and a compost pile. The girl I grew in the compost pile is still going strong and never got yellow leaves! For a 100% Sativa that is almost unheard of.








This is her a couple days ago. All of the mains have been harvested (mainlined for 16 mains):








The flowers are finally starting to die:




I also added composted chicken manure to my avocado tree and saw immediate benefits:










Cheers,
Mo


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## Mohican (Jan 14, 2014)

I started a separate thread for the LA Cup:

https://www.rollitup.org/california-patients/779891-2014-high-times-la-medical.html


Cheers,
Mo


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## boblawblah421 (Jan 15, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Start a worm bin and a compost pile. The girl I grew in the compost pile is still going strong and never got yellow leaves! For a 100% Sativa that is almost unheard of.
> 
> This is her a couple days ago. All of the mains have been harvested (mainlined for 16 mains):
> 
> ...


Shit all looks bangin Mo.

Is harvesting your tops first a regular thing for you? This is something I have always considered, but never went through with. I'm really leaning towards it this time.


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## Mohican (Jan 15, 2014)

With mainlining you trim away all but the mains while growing. I was lazy on this one.


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 16, 2014)

Passive hydro is the method I've been using and decided I'm moving towards organic soils only, with out using any chemical bottled nutes. Substainable type method.​






Hello D619,

I use passive hydro with organic soil in cloth pots. I get the best of both worlds. Check out my links in my signature to see PHOGS.
Passive Hydroponic Organic Grow System.

DankSwag


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## Herb Man (Feb 21, 2014)

trichome fiend said:


> ...sounds like your off to a good start. I'd go 50% green grass (keeping bacteria dominate), 25% brown leaf (needed fungi; carbon; helps buffer pH), 25% others....moisten and aerate the compost every 2 weeks, in 6 weeks your good to go! Check out this video, he keeps it simple.
> 
> [youtube]a-JqApyMaP4&feature[/youtube]


Simpe is beautiful.

Lovely post.


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## DonPetro (Feb 23, 2014)

Mo, great pics man. Good 'ol cali...


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## westchef (Feb 27, 2014)

&#8203;Great thread everyone! I'm getting ready to start my fist organic grow and was just wondering how you all gauge the amount of tea you need to brew to cover plants you grow.I'll be brewing in 1 or 2 5 gallon buckets so I'm going to assume it's just a matter of eye balling. Run out of tea..brew again and feed the rest at a later time etc.? take care&#8203;


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## SpicySativa (Feb 28, 2014)

If you think you're gonna run short, just dilute it down a little. Or just disperse it all evenly, then chase with water until
they are all properly moist. If I have any extra tea, I just give it to my veggies.


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## ZoBudd (Apr 11, 2014)

I'm reading the book right now. Fascinating really. Right now I'm growing in Roots Organics 707 soil with BioThrive organic nutes. 
In prep for my truly organic conversion, I started my vermicompost bin 6 months ago. Loving those red wigglers!

I'll make sure to check back for tips!!!!

Zo


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## Cali.Grown>408 (Apr 17, 2014)

BookMarked!!


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 20, 2014)

Question about nettles, I've read where people let leaves and stems soak in non areated water left outside to break down outside where it becomes anaerobic and really smelly and you have to dilute it to use it.

So my thinking why not avoid the risk of bringing in harmful bacteria to the soil which could disrupt fungi balance and possible lower levels of aerobic bacteria by breaking down the leaves and stems in aerated water bucket. 

After two days I have some slight foam on top very little and a wonderful smelling lightly greenish yellow water that appears to have the bio activators or the appearance of due to how the water color has changed I can't help but think the biology in the plant matter is now in the water and I don't have to wait two weeks and it does not smell. I can just keep adding water and leaves when water color lightens to continue to bring these dynamic bio activators to my soil when watering correct? 

Anywise I should probably do a side by one with out the aerated nettle water, one with the anaerobic diluted form and one plain h20.

Unless someone has experience using their nettles this way I'd like to know.

DankSwag


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## trichmasta (Apr 22, 2014)

My gals been loving 
1/2 cup EWC
1 cup Humisoil or Compost
1 tsp Molasses 
1 tbsp Alfafa Meal
1 tbsp Kelp Meal- all per gal, brewed for 24 hours. 

Brix, Terpene, and Flavanoid profiles are always on the rise with diverse brews!!


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 22, 2014)

Thought I share a little gem with you all

http://oregonbd.org/Class/accum.htm

DankSwag


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## Mohican (Apr 22, 2014)

Thanks for the Dank Swag DANKSWAG!


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## Dr.J20 (Apr 25, 2014)

trichmasta said:


> My gals been loving
> 1/2 cup EWC
> 1 cup Humisoil or Compost
> 1 tsp Molasses
> ...


I'm surprised you're brewing for only 24 hours. i was under the impression kelp delayed/retarded microbial activity for about the first 18-24 hours, thereby requiring brews that include kelp to go for around 36-48 hours. have you scoped your brew before use? I'd love to know what kind of water and what water temp your brewing at right now, as well, because if i could get a tea together with kelp in less than 48 hours that'd be huge!
be easy,
Dr.J


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## Dr.J20 (Apr 25, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Thought I share a little gem with you all
> 
> http://oregonbd.org/Class/accum.htm
> 
> DankSwag


thanks dank! i need to get me some watercress!


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## trichmasta (Apr 25, 2014)

Dr.J20 said:


> I'm surprised you're brewing for only 24 hours. i was under the impression kelp delayed/retarded microbial activity for about the first 18-24 hours, thereby requiring brews that include kelp to go for around 36-48 hours. have you scoped your brew before use? I'd love to know what kind of water and what water temp your brewing at right now, as well, because if i could get a tea together with kelp in less than 48 hours that'd be huge!
> be easy,
> Dr.J


Huh... Never heard that about kelp. I brew with a commercial air 1 pump, micropore ring, in a 5 gal bucket and brew 3-5 gallons at a time. Teas brew in my garage that is in the 60's, bucket is insulates with r3 insulation sleeve; at feeding brew is tepid and prolly in the upper 60 degree range. 
My gals have never looked better or been as vigorous in both stages with this brew. Brew times at max are 30 hours.
Thanks the tip! Good looking out.


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## Below66 (Apr 26, 2014)

What are the top recommended brewers I can buy, I'm guessing the vortex is one of them?


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 26, 2014)

I've been looking at these, hear they are exceptional for compost tea making.

http://www.kisfarm.com/product-category/indoor-gardening-equipment-and-soil/compost-tea-brewing-systems/

DawgSwag


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## Below66 (Apr 26, 2014)

Are the vortex really good or just good at marketing? I might save up money if they are the top dog.


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## Dr.J20 (Apr 27, 2014)

IMO building your own is both cheaper and more satisfying RE: the brewer.


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## Below66 (Apr 28, 2014)

I noticed the book teaming with microbes mention the ratios of fungal to bacterial in the soil, sorry if I missed it in the previous pages, but do different strains prefer different ratios at different times? what's the aim in ratios here? I notice he mentions bacterial dominated for annuals but there's so much geared towards fungi in this community I'm guessing it's a balance?


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## Mohican (Apr 29, 2014)

I think it is bacteria with acidic environment for growth and fungus with basic environment for flowering.


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## Dr.J20 (Apr 30, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I think it is bacteria with acidic environment for growth and fungus with basic environment for flowering.


So to bring it back to gardening with teas, in my understanding, brewing a balanced tea can be a pretty safe bet because the domination (bacterial v. fungal) will take place according to the exudates produced by the plant at the particular stage in the plant's life when the tea is applied. It is reasonable, then, to conclude that using a balanced brew recipe every time would not be harmful, but it may take longer for the particular microbial proportions to arrive at the optimum symbiotic balance. Also, it would seem that the recipe itself doesn't actually _need_ to change, per se, but rather the brewing time: as we all know, more brewing time = more fungally dominated tea.
sound about right?


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## Mohican (Apr 30, 2014)

Sounds reasonable.


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## Scroga (Apr 30, 2014)

I thought the bacteria dominated the mycorhizal and therefore not to add to brew till the end or do a separate myco tea on its own?
Have I been fed bad information?


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## Dr.J20 (Apr 30, 2014)

Scroga said:


> I thought the bacteria dominated the mycorhizal and therefore not to add to brew till the end or do a separate myco tea on its own?
> Have I been fed bad information?


I'm going to need a more thorough explanation of what you mean by this before I can respond intelligently


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## Mohican (Apr 30, 2014)

This link is full of great tea info:

http://www.microbeorganics.com/#What_is_Compost_Tea


I am still reading it 




Cheers,
Mo


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## Scroga (Apr 30, 2014)

it was said that the longer the brew time, the more the mycos will flourish and dominate the aerobic beneficial bacteria in the tea (assuming that its the balanced recipe that was mentioned?)
I was under the impression that the bacteria suppressed mycorhizal products therefore it was best not to add fungi products to teas until just prior to application...


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## Scroga (Apr 30, 2014)

Thanks Mo


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## Nizza (Apr 30, 2014)

i was thinking about making an air lift type brewer, does anyone know of any links so i can steal ideas for the build?
I just don't want to have to deal with airstones, and figure it would be fun to make
also curious, what effect does sunlight, direct or not, have on your tea when you brew it?


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## Scroga (Apr 30, 2014)

Got my Halea Hap 60 today...all my tents cloner and brewer are goin off now!


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## DonPetro (May 1, 2014)

Nizza said:


> i was thinking about making an air lift type brewer, does anyone know of any links so i can steal ideas for the build?
> I just don't want to have to deal with airstones, and figure it would be fun to make
> also curious, what effect does sunlight, direct or not, have on your tea when you brew it?


Check Spicys' out:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/diy-airlift-vortex-compost-tea-brewer-5-gal.634492/unread


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## Below66 (May 1, 2014)

Scroga said:


> it was said that the longer the brew time, the more the mycos will flourish and dominate the aerobic beneficial bacteria in the tea (assuming that its the balanced recipe that was mentioned?)
> I was under the impression that the bacteria suppressed mycorhizal products therefore it was best not to add fungi products to teas until just prior to application...


I'm rather new to this so I have no reason to be speculating.

But from microbeOrganics.com - "Adding Ingredients to a Finished Brew;

As I’ve mentioned we used to make 1200 gallon batches of ACT which we applied on our farm garden beds through an irrigation system. We used the same tank if we wanted to apply some other diluted soil amendment or fertilizer, like fish hydrolysate, molasses (occasionally) or humic acid.

I had read that many growers and landscapers were adding some of these amendments into their ACT just before applying and I believe this process was endorsed by SFI. Anyway we decided to try saving some time and money and dumped 5 gallons of fish hydrolysate into a 1200 gallon batch to pump out. I had, as usual examined the finished brew microscopically and out of curiosity took another sample after mixing in the fish hydrolysate. To my astonishment and dismay I had wiped out or put to sleep almost half of the microorganisms. This was the last time we did this.

We always apply amendments separately from ACT and this is what I recommend unless using the most minuscule amounts. I surmise that adding anything to a finished brew can have similar negative results. The amount of FH we used was 0.4%. If you have a microscope, go ahead and experiment."

I understood this to mean he probably doesn't think it's probably worth adding anything to a finished brew, for it would lessen it's effect, but he only tried with fish hydro... so I'm not sure myself if guys are adding stuff at the end in a beneficial manner.


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## st0wandgrow (May 1, 2014)

^^I have seen Tim mention this more than once. I would follow his advice^^

As for adding mycorrhizae to a tea ........ don't do it! They need to be applied directly to the roots/root zone when transplanting. Adding them to a tea is essentially using them as a food stock ..... and an expensive one at that!


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## Scroga (May 1, 2014)

So...going back a page, drj states that with a balanced tea, the longer the brew time, the more fungal dominated the mix well become...I thought this was not the case...
Its (coming into)winter here at the moment..and my tea is not giving my girls the same smile it was before...been adding cal mag,organic probiotic product, silica...to my tea bucket lol...might bring I t back to basics...


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## canadiankushman (Jun 17, 2014)

Below66 said:


> I'm rather new to this so I have no reason to be speculating.
> 
> But from microbeOrganics.com - "Adding Ingredients to a Finished Brew;
> 
> ...


What happens if added before the brewing process? 

Ck.


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## rikdabrick (Jun 17, 2014)

@ canadiankushman; If you're interested in making microbial tea then microborganics.com is a good page to read. Tim Wilson has spent countless hours looking through a microscope a microbial teas and experimenting with what works and what doesn't and dispelling some of the myths about AACT's.

Adding almost anything besides compost/worm castings and molasses before or after will keep or even kill the microbe population.

If you want to do a nutrient tea you should do it separate from your microbe tea.


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## canadiankushman (Jun 17, 2014)

Thx Rik, I will definitely give that a good read!

Ck.


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## dannyboy602 (Jun 17, 2014)

Here's a few links. Article on teas and their use as a preventative measure against insect and fungal infection. The other link is a Dr who speaks a lot about the subject.

https://www.yelmworms.com/compost-tea/page3.htm
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/Using_Tea_or_Extract.html


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## DonTesla (Nov 13, 2014)

trichome fiend said:


> ...just found the torrent download, read the book for free >>> http://extratorrent.com/torrent_download/1760489/Teaming with Microbes - A Gardeners Guide to the Soil Food Web (organic).torrent ( <<< Be sure to click the right download tab @ lower page)


@DonPetro brotha mon, Teaming wit Microbes on the DL, this thread sums it up nice too.. i see you been here already tho, as usual, lol


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## DonTesla (Nov 13, 2014)

Nizza said:


> i was thinking about making an air lift type brewer, does anyone know of any links so i can steal ideas for the build?
> I just don't want to have to deal with airstones, and figure it would be fun to make
> also curious, what effect does sunlight, direct or not, have on your tea when you brew it?


the suns light/UV rays kill bacteria, both good and bad, so useful in some cases, its bad for us organic guys. compost teas are packed with bacteria, nematodes, protozoas, and fungi.. vermicompost teas are more bacterially dominated. both very helpful but both light sensitive.. the foam should protect the brew a bit, its proteins mostly, (from worm bodies primarily, according to Teaming w/ microbes) but darkness is best, mon
36-42 hours for PEAK populations
2.38% VC is ideal
and 0.5% BSM (unsulphured important, it kills micro life)
more or less, less is more.


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## DonTesla (Nov 13, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> ^^I have seen Tim mention this more than once. I would follow his advice^^
> 
> As for adding mycorrhizae to a tea ........ don't do it! They need to be applied directly to the roots/root zone when transplanting. Adding them to a tea is essentially using them as a food stock ..... and an expensive one at that!


yep, Don ("Key") Stow Know! he also sports masks on the DL and never gets chest infections, so home boy know how to avoid the doc, i had to play fool to catch wise, lol

what y'all think of having both a fungal compost and a bacterial compost? is this like a given for y'all?

Fungal recipe:
5 to 10% alfalfa meal
45-50% fresh grass clippings
40-50% brown leaves / wood chips

Bacterial recipe:
25% alfalfa meal
50% green grass clippings
25% brown leaves / bark

Any thoughts are welcome, thanks.
…………..(source: teaming wit microbes)


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## DonPetro (Nov 13, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> yep, Don ("Key") Stow Know! he also sports masks on the DL and never gets chest infections, so home boy know how to avoid the doc, i had to play fool to catch wise, lol
> 
> what y'all think of having both a fungal compost and a bacterial compost? is this like a given for y'all?
> 
> ...


That would be a hell of a lot of alfalfa meal. I would rather source fresh alfalfa and do something like:
25% fresh alfalfa 
25% grass clippings
50% leaves
That being said i personally feel that a good manure source should also be used when making compost. So in that regard maybe 25% each alfalfa, grass, leaves and manure. Of course you would want to layer everything and have enough bio-mass in order to reach the desired temperature.


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## NoSwagBag (Nov 17, 2014)

Nizza said:


> i was thinking about making an air lift type brewer, does anyone know of any links so i can steal ideas for the build?
> I just don't want to have to deal with airstones, and figure it would be fun to make
> also curious, what effect does sunlight, direct or not, have on your tea when you brew it?


this brewer was EASY to build and made from 1 1/2 " pvc, so cheap too..


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## Scroga (Nov 17, 2014)

I take it the lids a must. ..

Sent from my GT-S7580L using Rollitup mobile app


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## NoSwagBag (Nov 17, 2014)

Yeah, I'm going to drill air holes and cut the edge of the lid for the air hose. Also putting a drain in the bottom.


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## a senile fungus (Nov 20, 2014)

NoSwagBag said:


> Yeah, I'm going to drill air holes and cut the edge of the lid for the air hose. Also putting a drain in the bottom.


What're the two 90° PVC elbows at the bottom of the bucket for?


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## NoSwagBag (Nov 20, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> What're the two 90° PVC elbows at the bottom of the bucket for?


They go on either end of the air lift. Picture 1 shows the air lift all together. The last picture is when I was taking it all apart to clean.


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## a senile fungus (Nov 20, 2014)

NoSwagBag said:


> They go on either end of the air lift. Picture 1 shows the air lift all together. The last picture is when I was taking it all apart to clean.


Ah I see. So they're not 90°... Or are they lol?

OK that looks pretty easy to make, I'll probably got it! Thank you!


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## NoSwagBag (Nov 20, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Ah I see. So they're not 90°... Or are they lol?
> 
> OK that looks pretty easy to make, I'll probably got it! Thank you!


They are 90's
here's a brewer material list:
* 1.5 " pvc pipe ( I used less than 3ft )
* 2 1.5" 90 ° elbows
* 1 T fitting ( 1.5 ") with 1/2 " female thread
* 1 plastic fitting that is barbed at one end for
1/2" ID hose, and 1/2" male thread other end
* 5ft 1/2" ID hose for the air pump
* trash can, barrel, feed can, whatever you want for the brewer
* air pump ( mine is 35 liter per minute )
* 2 stainless steel hose clamps


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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 10, 2014)

I've recently acquired all of the equipment necessary for brewed teas, minus one thing. My castings and compost won't be done for a few months. So here's my question, what could I use in place of ewc / compost? I'm really trying to avoid buying anything and I was thinking maybe a handful of my soil from my notill planters? I could grab some compost from my grandparents compost pile, but it's been 15 - 35 °f for a couple months now. 
I mean I could sort through my worm bin and snag the good stuff, but that isn't high on my list of fun things to do lol.


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## Mohican (Dec 11, 2014)

Compost could still be nice and warm inside the pile


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## smokin away (Apr 8, 2015)

Just seems there is no substitute for well cured compost. Takes awhile. Love the technical info always helpful. Have been using a tea brewed from the pesky male and those darn leaves left over from last year. Amazing results. If I remember I include a tbs of unsulfured molasses in the gallon with it. Love the spray idea. They just don't need much of anything else at less than a mo.


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## ivioto (May 26, 2015)

Built this tea machine for around $300. All parts from amazon. AACT delivered via hose and gravity is where its at!


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## TheGoldenGreenThumb (Jul 1, 2015)

I built the Oregon State University design costed about $80 holds about 28 gallons. Highly recommend


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## Rrog (Jul 1, 2015)

Don't hate me if I hate brewed teas.


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## ivioto (Jul 1, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Don't hate me if I hate brewed teas.


What is it you hate about tea? I find it hard when teas bring so much vigor to my garden!


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## Rrog (Jul 1, 2015)

I'm not thinking I should get into it and offend folks. I will say that I have always viewed brewed teas as redundant. I'll spend my time making sure my vermicompost is excellent. 

I view brewing tea as a waste of my time. But that's just me, and my time.


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## ivioto (Jul 1, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I'm not thinking I should get into it and offend folks. I will say that I have always viewed brewed teas as redundant. I'll spend my time making sure my vermicompost is excellent.
> 
> I view brewing tea as a waste of my time. But that's just me, and my time.


Well said. Understand your view. The feel in the air alone keeps me brewing


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## Rrog (Jul 1, 2015)

That's reasonable. And it's sure not hurting anything.

If you have great soil, and amend it properly, the brewed teas are not bringing something new to the soil.

If you had a choice of a worm bin or a vortex brewer, the worms will bring huge value. That'd be the choice.


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## cannakis (Oct 6, 2015)

Rrog said:


> That's reasonable. And it's sure not hurting anything.
> 
> If you have great soil, and amend it properly, the brewed teas are not bringing something new to the soil.
> 
> If you had a choice of a worm bin or a vortex brewer, the worms will bring huge value. That'd be the choice.


Nice I like this. Expand more please sir or is that all you have to say?

What do you think about Foliar Spraying?!

Maybe a small Foliar brew?!


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## ShLUbY (Oct 6, 2015)

cannakis said:


> Nice I like this. Expand more please sir or is that all you have to say?
> 
> What do you think about Foliar Spraying?!
> 
> Maybe a small Foliar brew?!


most will agree aloe vera, and various IPMs are the only foliars that need to be used. i've heard some use compost tea to eat powdery mildew spores... never experienced this myself. 

Edit: today i made a foliar of ahimsa neem oil, pure organic lemon juice, and dr. bronners peppermint soap. pulled all the veg plants out from under the light and put them in a no light/low light area. applied foliar and let them blow dry for a couple hours. placed them back under the light with it pulled way higher than necessary. 6 hrs after i treated them, they were praying like crazy! next foliar will be aloe in 4 or 5 days. i try and foliar between waterings.


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## cannakis (Oct 6, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> most will agree aloe vera, and various IPMs are the only foliars that need to be used.


Gel? Or powder? IPMs?!


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## ShLUbY (Oct 6, 2015)

cannakis said:


> Gel? Or powder? IPMs?!


as long as it is pure aloe product, doesn't matter if its the raw plant's clear gel, the powder, or you can buy aloe vera organic juice at some stores. I'm telling you, you will be amazed what you see with the first application. they respond with praying leaves.

IPM = integrated pest management. 

you should start reading the ROLS/no-till section from page one. it will really catch you up to speed. has LOTS of info in the first 50 pages, and then you gotta search for the good stuff after that.


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## cannakis (Oct 6, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> as long as it is pure aloe product, doesn't matter if its the raw plant's clear gel, the powder, or you can buy aloe vera organic juice at some stores. I'm telling you, you will be amazed what you see with the first application. they respond with praying leaves.
> 
> IPM = integrated pest management.
> 
> you should start reading the ROLS/no-till section from page one. it will really catch you up to speed. has LOTS of info in the first 50 pages, and then you gotta search for the good stuff after that.


Yeah I haven't read through all that in a year


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## Kind Sir (Nov 24, 2015)

So you can just pick dandelions and use them in whatever way youd like?
Wheres a good deal/place to get aloe and/or coconut? I was looking @ BuildASoil. 23$ after shipping cor the 200x aloe


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## SahTiva (Dec 7, 2015)

Am I doin' it right?


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## DonTesla (Jan 7, 2016)

Kind Sir said:


> So you can just pick dandelions and use them in whatever way youd like?
> Wheres a good deal/place to get aloe and/or coconut? I was looking @ BuildASoil. 23$ after shipping cor the 200x aloe


I chose to Buy a small aloe plant and up pot it.
It barely needs water as it IS water.
Babies sprouted from the soil alongside mama.
Cut from lowest most outer spot (oldest growth)
Great for cloning, IPM, foliar, and first aid.
Cut an inch off, slice er up with a blade. add to a gallon, bubble.
Haven't used powder but the gel and water only led to many amazing 2nd and 3rd gen clones for us

Either way, though, one ingredient solutions are usually the way to go, imo.


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## Organicgrow42 (Jan 22, 2016)

Question on how to flush our plants...getting harsh taste after first run. Probably too much nutes. ..any thought?


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## Rrog (Jan 22, 2016)

Wrong thread... We don't bottle feed here- just natural soil.

Definitely no flushing ever with soil


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## Organicgrow42 (Jan 22, 2016)

I don't bottle feed either. I only do teas if need be. I recycle but don't do no til until this first jedi kush. Came out super harsh. Figured I needed a flush. How would I go about doing something about this..

Also how do you keep a no til alive without reamending with out using teas?


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## Rrog (Jan 22, 2016)

You'd build the soil properly to start. Then ammend with various things. Occasional tea, worm castings, compost. 

Tea isn't a primary nutrient source and in my opinion they're used more than needed, because they're fun. But that's me

No flushing in any event. If you have a harsh flavor, no idea. Unless it's genetic, it sounds like chem ferts


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## Organicgrow42 (Jan 22, 2016)

I take a base and amend w only organics. I have done this for years. Now I'm trying no til. 

My first run is harsh. My Jedi is harsher than some but not like this. I have only given teas. I use fish, ewc, few drops of calmg (occasionally ), molasses 

When I used synthetics years ago, I would get the same type of flavor so figured I had amended my soil with too much. 

Side question: when you use teas with say ewc or compost ect are you screening them after they brew. I have heard both ways


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## Rrog (Jan 22, 2016)

Not sure on the flavor issue

I don't do a brewed compost tea as others do. I feel it's unnecessary. Again, that's just me


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## DonTesla (Jan 22, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> Question on how to flush our plants...getting harsh taste after first run. Probably too much nutes. ..any thought?


Likely, 
Too much poop or tea, bro
Not enough water and air
Maybe try pull the guanos out and go with DIY castings no more than 15% vs the touted 25 or 33...
Flush is a swear here, btw, lol
Good luck tho..


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## DonTesla (Jan 22, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> I take a base and amend w only organics. I have done this for years. Now I'm trying no til.
> 
> My first run is harsh. My Jedi is harsher than some but not like this. I have only given teas. I use fish, ewc, few drops of calmg (occasionally ), molasses
> 
> ...


Rrog knows the power of an inoculated soil..once thriving no need for teas if it doesn't dry out.

If you do do a tea, try microbe mans recipe and keep it "weak".. Less is more when you're already dealing with a well amended soil

Jus unlock what's in their with a few billion microbes..

Also, in a no till, with more than one plant per notill, water logging is a easy thing to do, and moisture meters often read higher than they should...
Humid but not wet is they key. As well as one plant per pot imo.


Also, some strains burn real clean in the same bed,others will burn darker and hotter the first couple times.. just cure for an extra few weeks and it should improve weekly brotha.
Depends on their needs and metabolism a bit too, but overall that's what's good.
What's the ppm of your water btw bra?


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## Organicgrow42 (Jan 22, 2016)

I do only 1 to 2 teas while in flower. That's when I see fading around week 4 or 5. I generally only do fish and ewc or something like that. I don't do guano teas if that's what you meant.

I havnt ph'd my water in awhile. Last time I did it was around 7 to 7.5 out the tap. I let sit for a few days and then use.

Can I get a link to the tea you mentioned? I have read the revs book and have been using a lot of his methods except i domt do his spikes or layers. 

Anyone know of a better source or does he know his ish? 

* about the flavor...I'm thinking first run is just hot, maybe it will get better with time.
How many runs you guys do with yours or do you go indefinitely?
Thanks!


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## Rrog (Jan 22, 2016)

Shredder has gone years


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## DonTesla (Jan 24, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> I do only 1 to 2 teas while in flower. That's when I see fading around week 4 or 5. I generally only do fish and ewc or something like that. I don't do guano teas if that's what you meant.
> 
> I havnt ph'd my water in awhile. Last time I did it was around 7 to 7.5 out the tap. I let sit for a few days and then use.
> 
> ...


I meant any guanos, even in your soil..
But they're supposed to be fairly soluble .. So if you increased aeration you could water more..
As for tea..
Google Microbe Man, bro.

His recipe boils down to 0.05% molasses (tsp/litre)
And .38% EWC (1.5Tbsp/Litre)
Bubble well for 36-42 hours at room temp for peak populations 
Then apply gently as possible to almost-humid soil

Soft spatula to scrape the sides 
Wash pail quickly after

Watch for foul smells is all.
Should be earthy rich and sweet

All one really needs to know, bud.


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## Organicgrow42 (Jan 28, 2016)

I will try that some time. This weekend perhaps. I'll also take a picture of my soil mix w the amendments I did that I usent in flower. Maybe there is an ingredient that's just now breaking down and releasing now that it has been awhile


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## natureboygrower (Mar 21, 2016)

Hey guys,just found this thread, looks awesome.I'm growing in 45 gallon bags and would like a simple soil mix?definitely not going to use bagged soil(707)but looking for something cost efficient and clean.I do brew my own teas and use no bottled nutes.I'm sure this question has been asked,my apologies.I have not had time to read whole thread.alsi, I'm looking to build a 15 gallon aerator. Was thinking vortex. Any suggestions? Thank you all


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 22, 2016)

natureboygrower said:


> Hey guys,just found this thread, looks awesome.I'm growing in 45 gallon bags and would like a simple soil mix?definitely not going to use bagged soil(707)but looking for something cost efficient and clean.I do brew my own teas and use no bottled nutes.I'm sure this question has been asked,my apologies.I have not had time to read whole thread.alsi, I'm looking to build a 15 gallon aerator. Was thinking vortex. Any suggestions? Thank you all


For your soil mix just look up clackamas coots recipe essentially its 1\3 compost 1/3 aeration 1/3 peat or leaf mold if available amended with kelp meal neem meal and oyster shell flour at 1/2 - 1 cup per cbf of your basemix (the compost, aeration, and peat/leaf mold). You can substitute the kelp for alfalfa, the oyster shell with ground shrimp skelotens etc, aeration at best would be half black lava rock half ricehulls, pure perlite works but even pure rice hulls would be better. Compost quality is key, don't settle for this bit. Buildasoil is a good source, theres a pnw worm vendor thats even better. Name slips my mind. Bus compost would be killer. 

Brewer someone else will have to chime in. Hope I could help!


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## MileHighGlassPipes (Mar 23, 2016)

natureboygrower said:


> Hey guys,just found this thread, looks awesome.I'm growing in 45 gallon bags and would like a simple soil mix?definitely not going to use bagged soil(707)but looking for something cost efficient and clean.I do brew my own teas and use no bottled nutes.I'm sure this question has been asked,my apologies.I have not had time to read whole thread.alsi, I'm looking to build a 15 gallon aerator. Was thinking vortex. Any suggestions? Thank you all


There's a million ways to build brewer's. I use to have a line of commercially available brewer's. I spent 2 years designing them. The one thing I learned is you don't know how good a brew is without a microscope. That being said Tim Wilson(aka microbeman) has great info on his page. I would consider him the world leader in compost tea research and knowledge. I learned so much from him it's unreal. Being that you won't scope every brew, going with a proven design is key. I don't want to spam the same pic I just posted in another thread, but it is a good example of a brew that was just starting to take off. It shows flagellates consuming bacteria. the arrows point towards the flagellates. This is a brew in one of the brewer's I designed a few years back. I still have about 1000 of the containers stacked in my warehouse just taking up space. My brewer design directly injects air into the compost.


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 23, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> I take a base and amend w only organics. I have done this for years. Now I'm trying no til.
> 
> My first run is harsh. My Jedi is harsher than some but not like this. I have only given teas. I use fish, ewc, few drops of calmg (occasionally ), molasses
> 
> ...


my bet is on that molasses causing the harshness..
Not sure what it is exactly, but something in BSM can cause the ash to be blacker, smoke more harsh.


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## MileHighGlassPipes (Mar 23, 2016)

Some people over due it with molasses for a sweet "taste". Never heard of it being the cause of a harsh smoke though. What is the logic in this? Why do you think it would make it harsh?


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## Mohican (Mar 23, 2016)

Have you ever burned sugar?


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 23, 2016)

greasemonkeymann said:


> my bet is on that molasses causing the harshness..
> Not sure what it is exactly, but something in BSM can cause the ash to be blacker, smoke more harsh.


I can attest to this. Grabbed the wrong jug once and watered with my undiluted lacto/masses before I realized it wasn't the tea I just finished brewing. Almost end of bloom, like 6th week. Smoke was amazing, but harsh and mostly black. One of my best dry/cures on a harvest I've had to date on that run too. Definitely the molasses imo.


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## natureboygrower (Mar 23, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I can attest to this. Grabbed the wrong jug once and watered with my undiluted lacto/masses before I realized it wasn't the tea I just finished brewing. Almost end of bloom, like 6th week. Smoke was amazing, but harsh and mostly black. One of my best dry/cures on a harvest I've had to date on that run too. Definitely the molasses imo.


So how far out from harvest would you give the plants it's last aact watering?


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## Beemo (Mar 23, 2016)

brewing compost teas is very necessary... its just not needed all the time...
no need to dilute... why would you want to dilute fungi and bacteria count?



natureboygrower said:


> So how far out from harvest would you give the plants it's last aact watering?


imo nothing after 4weeks into flower...


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## Beemo (Mar 23, 2016)

MileHighGlassPipes said:


> Some people over due it with molasses for a sweet "taste".


been seeing that a lot lately from organic growers...
too much molasses can kill the soil web...
use molasses in moderation...


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## Mohican (Mar 23, 2016)

If you have a good microbe herd going in your soil, you should only need to feed the microbes.


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## MileHighGlassPipes (Mar 23, 2016)

Microbial diversity is key. That's what compost tea can bring to any table.


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## Rrog (Mar 23, 2016)

Except the purpose of the tea is to have the microbes predated upon to release their nutrient payload. It's not about increasing diversity. The circulating air takes care of that


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## MileHighGlassPipes (Mar 23, 2016)

I don't understand what you said.

Are you talking about increasing nutrient cycling? Increasing microbes will do this. Growing more in the tea will do this as well. It is about diversity as you should use multiple compost sources. All of them containing different microbes. That's why I use compost tea in my notill system. I use a compost source for my teas that is not worm castings. The two together bring up the diversity. Diversity is key. Quantity is key as well.


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## Beemo (Mar 23, 2016)

MileHighGlassPipes said:


> I don't understand what you said.
> 
> Are you talking about increasing nutrient cycling? Increasing microbes will do this. Growing more in the tea will do this as well. It is about diversity as you should use multiple compost sources. All of them containing different microbes. That's why I use compost tea in my notill system. I use a compost source for my teas that is not worm castings. The two together bring up the diversity. Diversity is key. Quantity is key as well.


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## natureboygrower (Mar 23, 2016)

Beemo said:


> brewing compost teas is very necessary... its just not needed all the time...
> no need to dilute... why would you want to dilute fungi and bacteria count?
> 
> 
> ...


That's usually when my plants start to look their worst lulz.do you give them anything after this 4 week mark?


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## Beemo (Mar 23, 2016)

natureboygrower said:


> That's usually when my plants start to look their worst lulz.do you give them anything after this 4 week mark?


maybe go buy organic bottles? nothing you can do at this point... 
you'll just be chasing an endless rabbit hole... not enough time... 

next time add some amendments/weak organic food at the start of flower.


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## natureboygrower (Mar 23, 2016)

Beemo said:


> maybe go buy organic bottles? nothing you can do at this point...
> you'll just be chasing an endless rabbit hole... not enough time...
> 
> next time add some amendments/weak organic food at the start of flower.


OK.so,if a i build a base, compost,peat,aeration then amend with compost/ewc teas.technically, this should be all I need to get thru a 4 month season?are you guys brewing strictly compost/ewc teas?and nothing to do with a flowering diet?


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## Beemo (Mar 23, 2016)

natureboygrower said:


> OK.so,if a i build a base, compost,peat,aeration then amend with compost/ewc teas.technically, this should be all I need to get thru a 4 month season?are you guys brewing strictly compost/ewc teas?and nothing to do with a flowering diet?


that depends on how much food you have in the soil to start with...
if the soil is low in nutritional value.. or you see deficiencies 
then it needs to be re-amended accordingly...


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 24, 2016)

natureboygrower said:


> That's usually when my plants start to look their worst lulz.do you give them anything after this 4 week mark?


If you're at week four you could always give a kelp tea. Malted barley as a tea or topdress could help as well, can't beat those enzymes. I'm also not opposed to giving accts until the last couple weeks of bloom, it's just not usually necessary unless your soil mass is lacking in micro organisms. 
Another tip would be to increase your soil mass next run.


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## Beemo (Mar 24, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Another tip would be to increase your soil mass next run.


not necessarily..
organic sin mints in 3 gallons... almost 5ft tall
water and a few compost tea batchs only...


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## Mohican (Mar 24, 2016)

Wow! I would love to have those results!


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 24, 2016)

Beemo said:


> not necessarily..
> organic sin mints in 3 gallons... almost 5ft tall
> water and a few compost tea batchs only...
> View attachment 3640326


Oh it's completely possible, just requires some attention to detail and quality inputs. I've mentioned it multiple times in other threads that compost is one of the biggest "ingredients" people cut corners on or skimp on. Watering timely sems to be another factor in pulling weight from small soil masses. That and genetics, definitely genetics.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 24, 2016)

Another area I think alot of people fall short is in their rock dusts used. I've seen root bound plants make a complete 180 after only watering in glacial rock dusts with an aact or even just kelp.


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## natureboygrower (Mar 24, 2016)

OK,so 1/3 high quality compost,1/3 happy frog soil conditioner, 1/3 aeration,oyster shells,neem meal,kelp meal,now on to the rock dust.do I need to worry about high metals?all depends on locale,right?could you give me some examples of rock dust?how much per cubic ft?I'm getting ready to order some neem meal,and oyster shell flour.they didn't have this at my local grow supply and to be honest,I try to stay out of there.its a great small,local shop but every time I go in there, there's a new fucking product!!I just want something simple!!I like the ideas of rock dust in teas,aren't they suppose to ward off mildews?hey,thanks guys,great info


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## natureboygrower (Mar 24, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Another area I think alot of people fall short is in their rock dusts used. I've seen root bound plants make a complete 180 after only watering in glacial rock dusts with an aact or even just kelp.


Also,when you say watering in with kelp,how so?I use a small amount of seaplex(microbemans %)in every brew.do you brew using strictly kelp,or mixing kelp per bottle instructions in a watering can?


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 25, 2016)

natureboygrower said:


> Also,when you say watering in with kelp,how so?I use a small amount of seaplex(microbemans %)in every brew.do you brew using strictly kelp,or mixing kelp per bottle instructions in a watering can?


Well it depends on the situation on amounts used. For my kelp teas I'll usually take a handful (crude measurement I know) of kelp meal per gallon and bubble it for 24-36 hours then water with it undiluted or diluted by up to 4x the water. I also favor coots ready to use kelp method that involves hydrating kelp, blending, and storing as is in the fridge so its ready to be stirred into the appropriate amount of water and be ready to go. I like kelp in all stages honestly. I avoid any sources of nutrition last week or two of bloom though. Just light waterings.


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## natureboygrower (Mar 25, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Well it depends on the situation on amounts used. For my kelp teas I'll usually take a handful (crude measurement I know) of kelp meal per gallon and bubble it for 24-36 hours then water with it undiluted or diluted by up to 4x the water. I also favor coots ready to use kelp method that involves hydrating kelp, blending, and storing as is in the fridge so its ready to be stirred into the appropriate amount of water and be ready to go. I like kelp in all stages honestly. I avoid any sources of nutrition last week or two of bloom though. Just light waterings.


Very interesting.where can I find coots info on all this?


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## Organicgrow42 (Mar 25, 2016)

I used buildasoil.com it's all there basically under blog section


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 27, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> I used buildasoil.com it's all there basically under blog section


Beat me to it!


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## natureboygrower (Mar 27, 2016)

Thank you guys.just got this yesterday.looking forward to building a larger brewer.


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## freemanjack (Oct 20, 2016)

AWESOME THREAD!!!!!
Agree with every word in the op's initial post, top shelf info, concisely and clearly explained, bravo my fiend! bravo! Agro-chems will be the death of our soils if we don't cut the head off the beast NOW! Geoff Lawton is one of my very few heroes. If anyone is remotely interested in having their minds just a little blown, I have spent 3 yrs working up a hypothesis that describes the mechanisms involved in the 'soil food web' practice and my conclusion is that it is entirely electrical in essence, simply the flow of electrons and counterflow of ions that drives the entire system.
google; 'freemanjack - electro-biology' fer some of my published work.


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 20, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Well it depends on the situation on amounts used. For my kelp teas I'll usually take a handful (crude measurement I know) of kelp meal per gallon and bubble it for 24-36 hours then water with it undiluted or diluted by up to 4x the water. I also favor coots ready to use kelp method that involves hydrating kelp, blending, and storing as is in the fridge so its ready to be stirred into the appropriate amount of water and be ready to go. I like kelp in all stages honestly. I avoid any sources of nutrition last week or two of bloom though. Just light waterings.



So i follow the thread.....let me ask you this, any of you familiar with microbeman from icmag? He seems to know quite abit as well, was wondering if any of you have let a tea thats kelp meal, tablespoon of blackstrap, Homemade EWc compost as well if you'd allowed them to brew longer than say 36-48 hours, especially if you live in an area where it goes below 50 at night. I do measure the temps of my brews religiously just to be sure the herd is at 60ish. I would also like some insight on what i could use sans nylon stockings? Isnt it 200-400 micron bags that are ideal to let the entire process to be all it can be? I was also encouraged to buy glass bonded air stones with an aquarium pump of Bigger dimensions than what'd id had at the time. They were also using these.....



which i found SUPER SEXY!


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 20, 2016)

Also kinda interesting that folks are starting to steer clear of molasses
So after years of exploring teas and seeing many different methods, I am now finding Elaine is saying NO to molasses?



She is saying to use kelp meal, lots of rich compost, and add fish hydrosylate if you want N boost or more fungi.

I am going to run some trials comparing her recipes in the coming weeks to see how the teas compare.

I get great brews around 60 degrees for 48 hours, lots of hyphae and if it goes longer plenty of bacteria. The obvious quality level of EWC determines the quality of the tea, but cutting molasses and using kelp meal and hydrosylate as the only food stock seems very different.


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## natureboygrower (Oct 20, 2016)

MANGOBICHE said:


> Also kinda interesting that folks are starting to steer clear of molasses
> So after years of exploring teas and seeing many different methods, I am now finding Elaine is saying NO to molasses?
> 
> 
> ...


so why no on the molasses?


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 20, 2016)

This was in response to a couple of studies done several years ago with obvious flaws which stated molasses increases e-coli growth. The biggest flaw was that the CT was inoculated with e-coli. Molasses is, of course, going to feed it, as well as many other types of microbes.

fish hydrolysate feeds both bacteria and fungi

here, if you can handle a SHITTON of reading........
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=110620&page=190

I'd def suggest it though.


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## DonTesla (Oct 20, 2016)

natureboygrower said:


> so why no on the molasses?


It's preference for me too

Molasses are messy, 
Dem guey. Stringy. Yet also subject to drying out and crusting.

That alone is enough for me, tbh, 

but on top of that, the sugars and carbs are really condensed and thickened, and hard for a plant to metabolically digest later in its life cycle, which just so happens to be when the plant starts preferring less bacterially dominant soil and more fungal Dom soil

Don't want the herbs burning dark grey and black? 

Try using Tims recipe but switching to gently, naturally, and instantly evaporated organic cane juice crystals with minerals, vitamins and molasses content _inherent_ in it

Dilute teas to half strength between weeks 3 and 5 if using, and thats it, hombre

Be sure to ride it out with at least 3 weeks of nice clean, chloramine free, low ppm water. No tea, no foliar , this is very necessary imo for toptop shelf

Much cleaner, clearer, and harder to burn plants with all the same benefits, yet without the cons

Succanat is a brand that's popular but any will do. Its just organic cane stalks, taken and squeezed, allowed to evaporate, then crystallized 

Vs the whole heating and concentrating and thickening 

Here's day 32 using crystals instead of sticky molasses


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 20, 2016)

shit now that its out ill share too
Nothing but basic homemade compost ewc's, fish hydrosyl's recipe.....
  

yes i have a horrible habit of using trash bag liners in my pots, i airate them but find myself at times subconsciously doing it strangely enough


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## calliandra (Oct 20, 2016)

MANGOBICHE said:


> So after years of exploring teas and seeing many different methods, I am now finding Elaine is saying NO to molasses?
> 
> She is saying to use kelp meal, lots of rich compost, and add fish hydrosylate if you want N boost or more fungi.


Interesting!
Yeah actually I can understand why the switch from a microbial standpoint.
Molasses do feed the bacteria more than the fungi.
But usually what we are needing to add to our soils is the fungi - bacteria, typical of the lower stages of succession, being more abundantly present everywhere. More a question of diversity there, I'd say.
I've been looking at my soils and AACTs for a few months now, and from what I've seen have been thinking of a nutrient addition that caters more to the fungal side myself.

So thanks for the heads up, I'll be switching rather sooner than later


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 20, 2016)

you guys may find this an interesting read as well, i know i did.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2042870&postcount=7


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## natureboygrower (Oct 20, 2016)

very cool,thank you all for the info.I've only brewed for two seasons now so I'm always up for advice.I started brewing 2 gallons and this past season I was brewing 10g a week.I have the "pondmaster"ap100 for a pump and that would absolutely boil that 10g batch lol.I was going to build a vortex but didn't source a container in time so just built a bubble brewer instead. it seemed to work great,best yield and tasting bud up to date.no bottled nutes for this guy anymore.the one thing is,I built my soil off from buildasoil(roughly35 gallons of soil per planter)so of course they should have had no problems staying green and healthy. I watered with my ewc once a week to 2-3 weeks from harvest (glad you said 3 Don,some did go that long without ewc and I was kicking myself for not getting another feeding in lol)so im worried about how the soil is going to winter and what kind of nutrients I need to add.I have to get over to the rols thread..
anyways I will look into succanat,I agree,molasses is a pain and messy to work with.I've noticed using fish (Neptune's harvest)makes my tank a bit slimy.is there a dry form of fish or should I try another product?thanks guys


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 20, 2016)

yes i would consider using these........
https://www.amazon.com/Alaska-Emulsion-Fertilizer-Concentrate-Gallon/dp/B002RH0B26/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1476973598&sr=8-1&keywords=alaskan+fish+emulsion

I DID NOT like neptunes harvest products either. that and they are pricey as well at neptunes. which is crazy because they are out of the new england east coast man wtf lol.


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## Fastslappy (Oct 20, 2016)

I use Seagate grd fish , it's anchovies & sardines taken off baja CA cheap too amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Products-Fertilizer-Concentrate-Powder/dp/B002FU68XG


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## DonTesla (Nov 16, 2016)

I would rather create some fluffy mycelium coverd soil that's on a fungal diet and _sprinkle a bit of that _in

It will create a faster growth and better head start, plus burn cleaner if in the last month or two
If looking for fungal boosts
But I'm really picky with what I do in the last 6 weeks


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## platt (Nov 19, 2016)

sweetie, sweetie! eureka...it's white !!


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## DANKSWAG (Dec 24, 2016)

Hi Trichome Fiend,

You appear to be someone after my own heart, love trichomes, love teaming with microbes.

Say I appreciate your thread, the one I started is similar, but I am not laying it out all at once to consume.

Trying to take it one bite (Rule) at a time and debunk myths around them.

Hope you enjoy the Micro Herd Nerd thread, looking forward to your contributions.

DANKSWAG



trichome fiend said:


> *Soil Food Web Gardening *
> *...with compost teas*​
> ...(text from the book, "Teaming with Microbes" written by Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis)​...any questions or comments about the book are welcome, I'd love to discuss it.
> ...+ REP if you like.
> ...


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## NaturalFarmer (Dec 25, 2016)

MANGOBICHE said:


> yes i would consider using these........
> https://www.amazon.com/Alaska-Emulsion-Fertilizer-Concentrate-Gallon/dp/B002RH0B26/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1476973598&sr=8-1&keywords=alaskan+fish+emulsion
> 
> I DID NOT like neptunes harvest products either. that and they are pricey as well at neptunes. which is crazy because they are out of the new england east coast man wtf lol.


Alaska fish will kill your microbes and it is not organic. The stuff smells like thrown up cat shit.....Why is that? Because they start with a harbor trash fish (Menhaden which is high in mercury and PCBs) and extract the protiens for pet food and oils for codfish oil, and then boiled in chlorinated water (sometimes Cl as high as 14% in finished product because Cl is concentrated after evaporation.)



*Neptune's Harvest* *Emulsions*
- Uses several species of fish vs 1 type of fish (trash fish)
- No offensive odor vs Stinks
- Cold processed vs Cooked
- No oils removed vs Oils removed
- No meal removed (except Fillet) vs Meal removed
- No chlorine vs Contains chlorine
- Won't clog equipment vs Clogs equipment

Hydrolysate is the ONLY fish you want, it doesn't have to be Neptunes but their product is pricey because it is better quality. 


https://www.fedcoseeds.com/ogs/search?item=8292

$75 for 5 gallons


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## DANKSWAG (Dec 25, 2016)

Hi Natural Farmer,

Do you have any data sheets to back this claim up?

DankSwag



NaturalFarmer said:


> Alaska fish will kill your microbes and it is not organic. The stuff smells like thrown up cat shit.....Why is that? Because they start with a harbor trash fish (Menhaden which is high in mercury and PCBs) and extract the protiens for pet food and oils for codfish oil, and then boiled in chlorinated water (sometimes Cl as high as 14% in finished product because Cl is concentrated after evaporation.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## NaturalFarmer (Dec 25, 2016)

https://amalgoldnutrients.com/fish-hydrolysate/


*"Fish Hydrolysate based fertilizers*

*AMAL GOLD ORGANIC PLANT SUPERFOOD (WET FORMULA) is a Cold Processed Hydrolysate made from 100% food grade fish protein. The protein is extracted from the frame of the fish after fillet removal. We process at a temperature of 150°F so we don’t destroy the essential nutrients, amino acids, enzymes, growth hormones and vitamins. The protein molecule is reduced to single monomer amino acids with the introduction of enzymes. The result is a 15% liquid amino acid organic food product for plants.
The process breaks down the molecular bond of the protein making it easily absorbable by plants. We process within 90 minutes of the live fish being filleted. Fresh fish retains the vitamin and mineral wealth and does not smell. Oils and solids are removed to ensure the product flows through a 200 mesh screen. It is 100% water soluble.*

*Fish Emulsion-based fertilizers*
*Emulsions are products made from fish, too. The manufacturing process, however, is a little different. Manufacturers start by first removing the protein from the fish to sell as pet food or fish meal and removing the fish oil to make cod liver oil for human consumption. (The steam used to remove the protein is from chlorinated municipal water. The chlorine concentration can be as high as 14% in the final product!) Whatever remains after the removal of the protein and oil is then boiled down at high temperatures to a 50% solution. The resulting product is then packaged and sold as fertilizer.*
*Evaporating liquid down to a 50% solution requires intense heat for a prolonged period of time! (350-450°F is typical) This level of heat destroys all amino acids, enzymes, growth hormones and vitamins. Salt concentrations also double after the boiling down process.*
*Emulsions end up being thick like molasses. They smell badly and are hard to handle. They are known for clogging sprayers and getting stuck in holding tanks. They often contain heavy metals (like mercury) and PCBs.
The effect of fish emulsion-base fertilizers on plant growth is marginal and can lead to soil contamination from the heavy metals, chlorine and salt content.*

*Fish naturally contains approximately 2-3% nitrogen. If a company is selling a fish product and calling it an emulsion the product has been boiled down. The result is the heat sensitive compounds from the fish are denatured (destroyed), and the product cannot get the high nitrogen content in its analysis unless they add nitrogen from another source. If that source is urea or ammonium nitrate, you have a spiked product that is NOT ORGANIC."*


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## Rrog (Dec 25, 2016)

Feather meal is for shit for same reason. I get feathers from local clean farmer.


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Dec 25, 2016)

Merry Christmas for those who celebrate it. Myself kinda... more so for the kids... I'm up an atom at work with my teenagers who are about to be adults. 

Anyways i was wondering if anyone has ever added essential botanicals and herbal oils to compost tea? at the end .... before applying foliar and or soil drench. 

for fungicidal purposes ( at least for me) is why i thought on this. 

I was thinking of using what i have on hand. some clove & cinnamon oil ... maybe some tea tree, eucalyptus, lemon grass, lavender. 

But i don't want to interrupt the bennies to much ... but i would imagine it would disturb it in some way.. but if population are in large amounts it should be good. 

Want to know what others think who share the some cultured methods of cultivation, so i brought my question here.


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## mr. childs (Jan 4, 2017)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> Merry Christmas for those who celebrate it. Myself kinda... more so for the kids... I'm up an atom at work with my teenagers who are about to be adults.
> 
> Anyways i was wondering if anyone has ever added essential botanicals and herbal oils to compost tea? at the end .... before applying foliar and or soil drench.
> 
> ...


i recently put lavender, rosemary, & lemon eucalyptus essential oils in my 5 gallon jugs of fpe & ffj. this year i will more than likely spray the girls with the lavender & hydrogen peroxide mix outdoors for mites. also in the water that i bubble indoors i add lavender oil, doesnt bother the bennies from what i can see, but i am also feeding barley & enzymes, along with mycos in my tea.


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Jan 5, 2017)

Thank you for the feed back. When do you add the barley to your teas? I would guess towards the end yes? Final 1-2 hours i assume if you do. 

When you say enzymes your referring to the enzymes the barley give off correct? 

I like the mycos idea... haven't added to the end of brew but have made an instant tea with it as a stand alone with some agsil16h, and a little left over organic molasses (residue from the bottle)


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## mr. childs (Jan 5, 2017)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> Thank you for the feed back. When do you add the barley to your teas? I would guess towards the end yes? Final 1-2 hours i assume if you do.
> 
> When you say enzymes your referring to the enzymes the barley give off correct?
> 
> I like the mycos idea... haven't added to the end of brew but have made an instant tea with it as a stand alone with some agsil16h, and a little left over organic molasses (residue from the bottle)


i feed the barley by topdressing the soil with pond zyme, and i also use 8th of a scoop to the 3 gallon of ready to use tea jug that has water in it that i've pumped out from the bigger aerated drum, all after letting the veg boost bubble in the 3 gallon for 24hours.

beware of that ffj & fpe, shit reeks, even with the sweetness of the molasses & fruit juice & sugar to dull the funk. it gets kinda putrid at times.


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## bungholio (Jun 17, 2017)

Reading through the post... Half way through and cannot wait to ask...

Cocowater had come up a few times, Being too far north for any coconut trees to grow I got to think about birch tree sap.
And was wondering if any of you guys ever tried or heard of that instead of coconut water.


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## Mohican (Jun 23, 2017)

Coconuts are giant seeds. The coconut water is full of seed enzymes that promote all types of growth.


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## Mary's Confidant (Jul 3, 2017)

Somewhere in the middle of this thread, there was a lot of debate about the merit of AACTs, with people posting university findings debunking many of the claims. I skipped 10 pages after that and it had all but stopped being discussed. Where are people on this? I have already built my brewer and I've been using it on my veggie garden and all my plants look healthy but I'm hoping to see more studies posted. 

Does anyone have recent links with studies showing the efficacy? My teas are not a problem to brew but if it's wasted energy, I'd rather focus on other things around the garden (or perhaps increasing the size of my garden). My plants have responded well to my teas that have contained different blends of ingredients but, I could be attributing plant health to something undeserving.

Just curious where everyone falls on this spectrum.


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## Fastslappy (Aug 25, 2017)

i moved away from them , too much work for the brewing process on a daily basis on my greenhouse grows 
moved to coots & sst ,malted powders 


Mary's Confidant said:


> Just curious where everyone falls on this spectrum.


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## Mohican (Aug 25, 2017)

Some people brew without bubbles. Just let it soak.


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## Tankado78 (Aug 25, 2017)

I'm just starting to get into brewing my own teas. Both fungal or bacterial dom at times. Just trying to get the balance. Have yet to try Ffj or any other ferments. Very curious on how that works


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## freemanjack (Aug 26, 2017)

I now only consider brewed teas for initial inoculation of new soil mixes or remedial treatment of established soils suffering any desertification. The reason for this is that I found that fully biologically active soils show no improvement with added teas over plain water with a little loam soil dissolved into it, I now just throw a handful of topsoil and another of worm castings into my water just to replicate alluvial deposits in natural groundwater. Soil is best, soil is not just compost plus amendments, it is a stratified medium needing alluvial clay, silica bearing grits, some loam mid column then humus (compost) finally mulch (dead leaves, twigs tree bark). I need zero pest control, zero 'plant food', and my soil stays in the grow permanently, i just cut the old stem out from the top of the root system and pop the new plant straight in the little hole! Light + Soil + Biology + Plant = FOR THE WIN!!!


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## DonTesla (Aug 26, 2017)

bungholio said:


> Reading through the post... Half way through and cannot wait to ask...
> 
> Cocowater had come up a few times, Being too far north for any coconut trees to grow I got to think about birch tree sap.
> And was wondering if any of you guys ever tried or heard of that instead of coconut water.


Interesting, but no, haven't heard... damn, no coconuts where you are though, not even in stores!? I would just order a case, offline, if so, it could last you a super super long time if done right (full year, easy) and pay itself off easy in quality.. aloe flakes might be a good investment too! But way to stay open minded and local / resourceful too, I respect that.. maybe give it a shot on one, if you can, the sap

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As for the tea thing, I prefer to mix best soil possible, similar to coots with my own improvements, and although I do endorse an inoculation regime, I prefer to do it well before the soil is potted and fed their fungal food and therefore way before plants are embedded.

I agree with the school of thought that compost is best. @RastaRoy spoke with some progressive folks on the matter, too, maybe he can chime in what they said..

But when you are using small pots, say under 20 gallons for example, innoculating once or twice a cycle is probably recommended if high-quality, high-humus, well-amended soil and or compost aren't readily available at the moment (for topdressing)

My 2 cents anyway,

Cheers,

DonT


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jul 4, 2018)

So do you any of you guys still use your teas?? Thread hasn't been active since last year and I've heard of a lot of ppl no longer using teas!


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## charface (Jul 4, 2018)

I use them once a month on my organic stuff


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## kkt3 (Jul 8, 2018)

I use them about every 3 weeks as a foliar and soil drench.


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## Mary's Confidant (Jul 9, 2018)

Even if it's redundancy, I think it's healthy practice to use a new tea every 3-4 weeks. I throw in some Fish hydrolysate, sometimes bone and blood meal as well just to give it an extra kick, or I'll cycle amendments and put crab meal, neem meal etc. I brew just over 24 hrs, usually 24-30, then apply. I don't foliar feed because I can't find consensus on it.


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## hillbill (Jul 9, 2018)

I alternate clear water, EWC tea, weak Alfalfa teas with few troubles as far as deficiencies and the plants are smiling


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## thezephyr (Jul 10, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> So do you any of you guys still use your teas?? Thread hasn't been active since last year and I've heard of a lot of ppl no longer using teas!


I used compost teas in my 2016 season, and didn't use them in my 2017 season. Based on the difference in yields, I will absolutely be using them from now on.

I usually use worm castings, seaweed/kelp, neem meal, a little bit of clay soil from my back yard, alfalfa during veg, with a little bit of molasses, honey, and maple syrup as my carbohydrates. Sometimes I throw in some fresh lemon balm too.


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## mr jones15 (Jul 12, 2018)

First time ever doing compost tea itd been brewing for almost 24 hours although I went out after a couple hours and my pump shut off cause it overheated then turned back on? First time I ever used it so idk if it shut off during the night at all. Anyways does this look right?


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## Mary's Confidant (Jul 12, 2018)

How's it smell?


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## mr jones15 (Jul 12, 2018)

Nothing really, slightly fishy smell but think that's probably the myco chum I added? I used an old bag of bu brew for compost teas and when I say old I bought it 3 years ago and I added a lil bit of leaf compost and soil from the woods to the lil bag and some old worm composting prolly 3 years old as well.


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## hillbill (Jul 12, 2018)

Cannnabiss is not really that picky and many other plants love grey water in the garden. I've used old tea and some a bit sour but never saw any negatives. Get your soil near right and water thru and I alternate with clear waterin recycled mix. I do Bubble all sort of things like mulch fines and bottom layer hardwood forest leaf mold, cotton burr compost and of coarse, castings.


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## mr jones15 (Jul 12, 2018)

Well funny thing is it's not for cannabis, I actually was making it for my new fruit trees and bushes because they're getting munched on and I was hoping to repel the bugs a lil bit and help the plants out in the process. Was going to foliar spray first then feed the plants later.


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## mr jones15 (Jul 12, 2018)

It's been almost a day and a half that it's been bubbling I'm going to use it tonight does it look any better or worse now? It started to build up stuff around the edge to.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Aug 28, 2018)

mr jones15 said:


> It's been almost a day and a half that it's been bubbling I'm going to use it tonight does it look any better or worse now? It started to build up stuff around the edge to.


Looks fine but to be honest with a compost tea pic we really can't tell you if it's good or not that's why the guy above asked what it smelled like!


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## mr jones15 (Sep 19, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Looks fine but to be honest with a compost tea pic we really can't tell you if it's good or not that's why the guy above asked what it smelled like!


Well I think it did work a few of my plants really have taken off after using it and I tries saving some as foliar spray (just a bottles worth) and I'm pretty sure it helped rid a small infestation of mealy bugs it ended up smelling like straight cow sht after a weeks time and the bugs did not like it lol


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## Greenthumbs256 (Sep 19, 2018)

mr jones15 said:


> Well I think it did work a few of my plants really have taken off after using it and I tries saving some as foliar spray (just a bottles worth) and I'm pretty sure it helped rid a small infestation of mealy bugs it ended up smelling like straight cow sht after a weeks time and the bugs did not like it lol


DO NOT SAVE ANY COMPOST TEA! EVER it goes bad after very very short amount of time! Once you stop bubbling it you need to use it!


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## mr jones15 (Oct 17, 2018)

I used whatever was left in my spray bottle as a foliar spray it didnt seem to hurt anything they all showed new growth but they are still real young.


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## ibitegirls (Dec 21, 2018)

hi all, so my vermifire soil is now a month old and i added the following to it 2-weeks ago:

before flowering (1st tea):

guano grow 5-1-1 (2 tbsp)
guano bloom 0-7-0 (1 tbsp)
kelp meal 2-0.5-2 (1 tbsp)
molasses (1 tbsp)
EWC (5 tbsp)

I'm now two weeks into flowering, should I add the same tea again but reduce guano grow to 1 tbsp? And should I increase guano bloom to 2 tbsp's??


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## Mohican (Jan 10, 2019)

I would hit it one more time. She looks hungry.


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## Medicated Bonsai (Jan 13, 2019)

ibitegirls said:


> hi all, so my vermifire soil is now a month old and i added the following to it 2-weeks ago:
> 
> before flowering (1st tea):
> 
> ...


I'm very new to organics and was wondering how much water you used for this mix?


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## ibitegirls (Jan 13, 2019)

Medicated Bonsai said:


> I'm very new to organics and was wondering how much water you used for this mix?


1 gallon of water is what I generally use for all my tea's


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## Medicated Bonsai (Jan 13, 2019)

ibitegirls said:


> 1 gallon of water is what I generally use for all my tea's


Do you know if House & Garden's "Roots Excelurator" and "Amino Treatment" is safe for organic grows / compost teas?


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## ibitegirls (Jan 13, 2019)

Medicated Bonsai said:


> Do you know if House & Garden's "Roots Excelurator" and "Amino Treatment" is safe for organic grows / compost teas?


its really hard to say unless you do science experiments on the tea microbes and such. I would email the manufacturer or give them a call to ask, they usually know best and can advise more accurately on these matters


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## Mohican (Jan 14, 2019)

I have had great results with Excelurator. I use it mainly for cloning.


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## Medicated Bonsai (Jan 14, 2019)

Mohican said:


> I have had great results with Excelurator. I use it mainly for cloning.


Awesome, I wanted to use it but I didn't know if it would kill my bennies/microbes.


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## Mohican (Jan 14, 2019)

It only takes a few drops. The stuff is potent!


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## pollen205 (Feb 8, 2019)

Somewhere I read that foam is good somewhere read that is bad when you see it so what is correct
Im thinking about worm tea.


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## hillbill (Feb 8, 2019)

Foam seems to be desired and seems present with a lot of microbial activity. Sometimes my teas foam and sometimes not. However, using a handful of my own castings most always foams profusely. Tablespoon of Alfalfa in bucket will get some foam goin most always.


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## CanadianDank (Feb 8, 2019)

I believe the foam in alfalfa is mostly due to its high saponin content. Although alfalfa is also food for the microbes when used in a compost tea


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## WeedFreak78 (Feb 13, 2019)

I've been running a 5gal bucket with tea brewing continuously for close to a month and a half now, it's probably the best thing I've done to help the overall health of my plants and compost having a constant supply of tea on hand, it's all I water with now. Daily I add fresh leaf and pruning waste and occasionally old dirt, roots, etc., plus I'll throw a splash of fish fert, pinch of alfalfa meal or a scoop of oatmeal in it every so often. Every week or so I scoop out the solids, throw it in my compost and add some new stuff. I just top it with RO as I use it. Everything I ever read said compost tea has a finite life, but I say BS, if you keep it fed, it'll keep producing. The slime I have going is amazing.


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## DonPetro (Feb 18, 2019)

ibitegirls said:


> hi all, so my vermifire soil is now a month old and i added the following to it 2-weeks ago:
> 
> before flowering (1st tea):
> 
> ...


What size tent you got there?


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## ibitegirls (Feb 18, 2019)

DonPetro said:


> What size tent you got there?


24" x 24" x 48"


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## Greenthumbs256 (Feb 20, 2019)

could anyone tell me if mixing em1 and mammoth p could be done?

I mean without one killing the other, or anything negative happening! I know em1 out competes just about everything else, I'm worried it would kill the microbes in the m.p.! I'm asking bc of a side by side experiment i'm planning to do!


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## Ecompost (Mar 17, 2019)

dwrd said:


> I have a question Trichome Fiend. My brewer instructions say to apply 1/2 qt of compost and 1/4 cup of activator for a one gallon brew. I believe this is too much! I just wanted to know what quantities that book of yours recommends?


I add 2.3-2.5% by volume, this is just based on lots of testing on our own homemade compost which we tested at 5% protein. If I add anything like kelp or BSM or other I use 0.50%. This is on top of any compost I add. 
The thing with any of this is the amount of protein contained within the compost before you begin, since this is at the heart of the chemistry.
You can get compost tested for protein levels, much of it is extremely low in protein, ergo teas or substrate do not, or rather can not, contain sufficient access to enough amino acids without extra help from outside. .
As consumers, we should start to demand that compost/ media/ substrate manufacturers begin to display the protein content of their offerings. It is only in the levels of proteins that we can value the bag.


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## Ecompost (Mar 17, 2019)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> could anyone tell me if mixing em1 and mammoth p could be done?
> 
> I mean without one killing the other, or anything negative happening! I know em1 out competes just about everything else, I'm worried it would kill the microbes in the m.p.! I'm asking bc of a side by side experiment i'm planning to do!


you should know, microbes in EM1 are subject to the Krebs cycle, as a result for example, to fix a single NO3- from a source of organic N, we see N fixing microbes spin up KREBS 32 times. This means that N fixing microbes almost definitely have to form relationships with PSB's in order to have access to sufficient Phosphorous to operate 32 KREBS cycles to get access to the Nitrogen they require. 
Ergo i propose that any microbes dependent on ATP, need PSB's as partners. This includes LAB, Cyanbac, fungi, yeasts, mold, other bacteria and viruses.


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## Ecompost (Mar 17, 2019)

mrduke said:


> are composts with added manures a good start for tea


Of course if you know the origins of the waste, and you know its antibiotic free, then why not use it? Forests are powered by animal dung, bird insect, mammal, livestock and so on, just as they are old leaves, twigs and clippings.

Think about the components of the soil food web, think about whats been lost in modern farming...in both cases its animals front and centre. We removed animals from the land with the use of nutrients, synthetic manures, and in doing so we lost the substitutes bench and we began running out of front line soldiers in our soils, and so we are also losing soil fertility and integrity too.
Just as there isnt a vegetable to match the protein capacity of a grass fed steak, so there isnt a green waste product that can add as much protein to our soils as a well reared/ lived cowshit. Not withstanding the impacts of different herbivores on the whole carbon cycle, but thats a whole new debate.
if you arent a vegan, and you arent obsessed with the concepts of good and bad, as applied outside of a human mind, then dont worry and do use manures.

Know you input sources, this is the key to achieving organic purity, but try not to worry too much as this concept has nothing to do with the soil food web, just as test match cricket is really the same as the one day series....
There are things we can do with unknown waste material, anaerobic digestion, bokashi fermentation and so on. green waste also may contain traces of hazardous chemical residues and or be part of a synthetic program. Cow shit can be part of this same system of course so if you want pure, know beforehand whats been fed what and injected when......

Ecoli....arrgh... try not to get sucked in to the human concept of good and bad. In a healthy soil system you needn't worry about ecoli and again you wont get it from manure more than you do soil, its a soil microbe at heart and vegans can get it by badly watering plants and allowing ecoli to splash up on to the material they then consume.
In healthy soil systems ecoli isnt a problem but a part of an overall picture and it is omni present so worrying about it wont help.
I personally think what happens in healthy soil is that ecoli, probably under the orchestra of a glomus which senses its host plant to which is its connected is under attack, is allowed to operate its secondary metabolites, which the plant then uses via harpin protein interactions to defend itself, thus the plant remains alive and this prevents the death also of the glomus.
https://www.maximumyield.com/harpin-proteins-enhancing-your-plants-natural-defense-systems/2/1044

the soil food web is much more than fungus versus bacteria, its yeasts, molds, viruses and so much more.


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## Ecompost (Mar 17, 2019)




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## tko2184 (Apr 26, 2020)

Well I tried and am trying the whole compost baby oatmeal thing an I don’t know if it is supposed to smell I have had it there 24 hrs and do now see som slight growth but my concern is the smell it sldoesnt stink to say but does have a sourness slightly to it. Is this normal and what exactly is frowning mycelia or mycorrhizae?


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## Rayi (Apr 26, 2020)

Tried to read and understand everything. Old mind is gone. No where did I hear need was bad for the soil. I assume it is but I don't think I can grow without neem


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 26, 2020)

Rayi said:


> Tried to read and understand everything. Old mind is gone. No where did I hear need was bad for the soil. I assume it is but I don't think I can grow without neem


I use it all the time, mix of neem and karaja


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## Rayi (Apr 27, 2020)

Thank you


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## Mohican (Apr 27, 2020)

Neem killed my worms so I am not sure how good it is for beneficial soil flora.


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## toomp (Apr 28, 2020)

Mohican said:


> Neem killed my worms so I am not sure how good it is for beneficial soil flora.


Sorry to hear that. Why did you use neem?


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 28, 2020)

Neem works best with karanja!

Check out "neem ninja"


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## washedmothafuka (May 27, 2020)

"Applications of synthetic fertilizers kill off most or all of the soil food web microbes."

This is outdated. As long as synthetic fertilizer is not used in excess, it doesn't harm the soil food web. There was a journal on this somewhere I'll see if I can find it


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 27, 2020)

washedmothafuka said:


> "Applications of synthetic fertilizers kill off most or all of the soil food web microbes."
> 
> This is outdated. As long as synthetic fertilizer is not used in excess, it doesn't harm the soil food web. There was a journal on this somewhere I'll see if I can find it


If you find that journal or what ever proof you have, I'd highly appreciate if you wouldn't mind tagging me in it. Thank you regardless, it may be "old news" but I didnt know that!


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## washedmothafuka (May 27, 2020)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> If you find that journal or what ever proof you have, I'd highly appreciate if you wouldn't mind tagging me in it. Thank you regardless, it may be "old news" but I didnt know that!


Impact of Organic and Inorganic Fertilizers on Microbial Populations and Biomass Carbon in Paddy Field Soil


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## dannyboy602 (Jun 18, 2020)

washedmothafuka said:


> Impact of Organic and Inorganic Fertilizers on Microbial Populations and Biomass Carbon in Paddy Field Soil


So basically it ain't bad but it ain't good. Or written another way...everything in moderation. Good to know.


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## washedmothafuka (Jun 19, 2020)

dannyboy602 said:


> So basically it ain't bad but it ain't good. Or written another way...everything in moderation. Good to know.


Exactly. If your plant is showing a certain deficiency mid-late flower, then giving them some ready to absorb nutrients isn't going to destroy your soil food web but it will give them the nutrients they need to finish flowering.


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## hillbill (Jun 20, 2020)

washedmothafuka said:


> Exactly. If your plant is showing a certain deficiency mid-late flower, then giving them some ready to absorb nutrients isn't going to destroy your soil food web but it will give them the nutrients they need to finish flowering.


99+% ROLS but am not a purist nor Puritan and my little bucket of Peters 20-20-20 solves deficiencies fast in emergencies, especially in veg. Haven’t used any in flower for 5 years or more, my bucket is 12 years old!


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