# EVOLUTION, LAND RACES



## Tektek (Apr 5, 2018)

Cannabis is one of the first plants cultivated by humans. I think classification is simplified by using 4 species. Cannabis ruderalis, C. indica, C. sativa and C. hemp. 

C. ruderalis has origins in central Asia. Usually less than 2 ft tall, spindly, auto-flowering, maybe 1% THC and CBD. It could be the ancestor of the other species. Natural and human selection created land races adapted to different latitudes and climates. 

C. indica, usually less than 4 ft tall, conical, dense foliage, compact buds, high THC, about 1% CBDs. C. indica _‘afghanica Clarke_’ evolved for a long time at about 35 deg N, in a dry climate, slightly acid to slightly basic soils, often calcareous. 

C. sativa, usually more than 4 ft tall, open branch and foliage structure, loose buds, high THC, about 1% CBDs. Adapted to sub-tropical latitudes, wetter climate, somewhat acid soils with lower nutrient concentration. More resistance to mould is a recessive trait. 

C. hemp, usually very tall, little branching, loose buds, high CBD, about 1% THC. Many land races adapted to different climates and latitudes.

The chemical pathway for THC and CBD is either / or. The minor constituent is there because it’s chemical pathway is active at a very reduced rate. 

New varieties/hybrids, almost anything is possible and the industry is a mess. A variety like _‘purple Kush’_ from different seed companies or growers might be similar, but they usually have different chemistry and genetics. 

More on how this relates to growing, soon.


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## NaturalFarmer (Apr 7, 2018)

Does it benefit the plant by classifying it as four instead of one? It seems that the only one who stands to benefit by putting everything in compartments like that is lawmakers, who can then tell the lessers which is good and bad so as to allow more government involvement and more $$$ for that government.

Sativa is latin and means "cultivated"

Cannabis Sativa is the genus and Indica and Ruderalis are subspecies of that, never heard of Cannabis Hemp however. Hemp traits can be found in everyday strains and phenos of them both indica and sativa forms, they are not a separate species because of it in my opinion.

Hemp has two forms, fiber and seed-oil, both very different in shape. One has Sativa traits and the other indica. Compartmentalizing the strains from there by thc % only benefits lawmakers and sets artificial limits that will hinder the farmer and consumer alike.


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## SchmoeJoe (Apr 7, 2018)

NaturalFarmer said:


> Does it benefit the plant by classifying it as four instead of one? It seems that the only one who stands to benefit by putting everything in compartments like that is lawmakers, who can then tell the lessers which is good and bad so as to allow more government involvement and more $$$ for that government.
> 
> Sativa is latin and means "cultivated"
> 
> ...


The varieties grown for drug use will always be a controlled substance. Between that and the fact that the differences are enough that, even though they're obviously different species, they should have their own taxonomic classifications.


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## NaturalFarmer (Apr 7, 2018)

My point was a farmer who accidentally grows 1% THC+ will ultimately be hindered and and the market will be constricted and not naturally flourish. Aside from that, I am not sure what you mean, they do have their own classifications now although I hacked it a bit up above.


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## Tektek (Apr 9, 2018)

Just land races, not compartments.

Politics, law? don’t care. This is for us. 
Lots of confusion, marketing bs. misinformation, right wing subversion every where.
Seed companies now? So much bs.

I don’t need CBD/hemp/auto-flower/ruderalis/chem-fem-bot genetics in my THC plants. 

The 4 species, a tool to see where genetic traits like mould resistance, hi THC or CBD, structure, etc come from. Land races bred/adapted for different climates and latitudes / photoperiods. Better pot when photoperiod used properly. more later.

Current nomenclature stupid, old anti drug bs and now marketing bs. Could be written Genus ‘_variety’ _ without species.
Eventually genetic analysis will determine lineage of species/ varieties. Is there a common ancestor for THC sativa? etc.
I guess some land races have better seed/oil/food than others. 
modern hemp with THC 1%? not much chance.


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## NaturalFarmer (Apr 9, 2018)

Good luck.


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## SchmoeJoe (Apr 9, 2018)

[QUOTE
modern hemp with THC 1%? not much chance.[/QUOTE]


Considering the decades of selective breeding to stay compliant with legal requirements I'd say it's actually a pretty good chance.


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## OldMedUser (Apr 24, 2018)

General consensus is that there is really only one genus of cannabis which is C. sativa. Everything is just variations of that which developed their own survival strategies depending on their environment.

Seeds from all plants are spread far and wide by birds etc and if they land somewhere that they can survive a season or few they will adapt to local conditions and thrive or die.

Even the lowly so-called ruderalis was likely a seed shat out by a bird that ate it in Nepal a week earlier and adapted to the short growing season over a few thousand years.

Even Rainbow and Cutthroat trout were found to be true salmonids over 20 years ago but they still taste like trout to me!


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## SchmoeJoe (Apr 24, 2018)

OldMedUser said:


> General consensus is that there is really only one genus of cannabis which is C. sativa. Everything is just variations of that which developed their own survival strategies depending on their environment.
> 
> Seeds from all plants are spread far and wide by birds etc and if they land somewhere that they can survive a season or few they will adapt to local conditions and thrive or die.
> 
> ...


It was also learned that steelhead routinely breed with resident rainbows.


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## OldMedUser (Apr 24, 2018)

Steelhead are actually just ocean run rainbow trout. Rainbow trout - Salmo Gardenari, Steelhead - Salmo Gardenari Gardenari. Pretty sure that's correct but don't have my notebook from the post-graduate fisheries management course I took in 1990.

On the Chilliwack River in southern, BC where I first learned to fish at my grandfather's side starting at 3 years old there is a big hatchery where they raise steelhead, coho etc. They open the river on July first and allow you to keep 12 trout per day. Most of those are young steelhead that didn't go to the ocean so they want them out of the river as they eat up food needed for resident fish. At least that's what they did 20 years back when I lived out there.


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## ANC (Apr 24, 2018)

You don't need to learn to fish trout.... earthworms, the fuckers can't resist them.


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## OldMedUser (Apr 24, 2018)

ANC said:


> You don't need to learn to fish trout.... earthworms, the fuckers can't resist them.


I'm not a bait-slinger tho. Flies I tie myself or spinners and spoons work for any fish I go after. My trout spinners on a noodle rod with 6lb test line have landed me 30lb+ salmon while sitting in my belly boat at the mouth of the Chilliwack where it meets the Fraser. About 3 miles down from the parking area.

My buddy Dave and I would check the tides in the Vancouver Sun paper to make sure we would get a high tide while down there or it was hike back in the bush with your belly boat on your back wearing thick neoprene waders. Need to lose weight? That does the trick when we fucked up. 

For steelies in the upper river we'd bottom bounce with spin-and-glows to great effect. Tiny ones the size of a marble with a bit of coloured wool on the big 4/0 hook. Purple and chartreuse with a shot of WD-40 was my fave.

Up here the same gear I used for salmon works fine for pike and walleye too. Pike take flies just fine as well but rip them up so I make big ones with feathers from our chickens and a 6" wire leader on the end of a 50lb straight tippet. I have a 10' - 10wt Powell fly rod I built from parts about '85. I use a floating WF shooting head and back before my shoulders went to shit got over 120' cast out of it at a competition we had with most of the members of my fly club attending.

Pike suck on regular gear. Like dragging in a log until they see the boat then they finally wake up and run for it. The fun factor goes way up on a fly rod or my noodle rod with spoons. Need a new tube for my belly boat and use that once the ice is off the lake here. 

WD-40 works great on the fish up here too. Always have mini can of it in my fishing vest. Got one from Camel trading in Camel Bucks. Shitload of stuff from them. Wouldn't send to Canada so would order it sent to my uncle's in Oregon and mom would bring it back in the motor home when they went to visit or he'd bring it up in his gorgeous converted Greyhound Bus. 

I used to go down to Lynden, WA to buy a couple cartons of Camel Filter 100s every pay day and hide them under the back seat of my chevy. Did that for over 5 years and never got caught but wouldn't try it now. Couldn't get in the states now without a passport anyways. I lived 3 miles from the border crossing and Lynden was the first town on the way to Bellingham but most often my destination. Cheap fishing gear too. A guy offered to buy me a .357 from the hardware store there once but I didn't do it. $350 with $50 to him. Model 66 S&W in SS with combat grips. Fired off a box of wadcutters through a Colt Python at a shooting range where I took a handgun course because it was half price. It had the combat grips too and fit my hand perfectly. They'd teach you on a .22 pistol and semi-auto then let you go buy a box of ammo for any gun you wanted to try. Was fun.


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## SchmoeJoe (Apr 24, 2018)

OldMedUser said:


> Steelhead are actually just ocean run rainbow trout. Rainbow trout - Salmo Gardenari, Steelhead - Salmo Gardenari Gardenari. Pretty sure that's correct but don't have my notebook from the post-graduate fisheries management course I took in 1990.
> 
> On the Chilliwack River in southern, BC where I first learned to fish at my grandfather's side starting at 3 years old there is a big hatchery where they raise steelhead, coho etc. They open the river on July first and allow you to keep 12 trout per day. Most of those are young steelhead that didn't go to the ocean so they want them out of the river as they eat up food needed for resident fish. At least that's what they did 20 years back when I lived out there.


There was a study that spanned 30 years on the Hood River in Oregon that concluded fairly recently that found that they are actually the same species of rainbow and that about 25% of their offspring become anadromous.

I only brought it up in the first place because it's another perfect example of how new discoveries upend what we thought was an established understanding of the family tree of a particular organism and it's relatives.


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## ANC (Apr 24, 2018)

OldMedUser said:


> I'm not a bait-slinger tho. Flies I tie myself or spinners and spoons work for any fish I go after. My trout spinners on a noodle rod with 6lb test line have landed me 30lb+ salmon while sitting in my belly boat at the mouth of the Chilliwack where it meets the Fraser. About 3 miles down from the parking area.
> 
> My buddy Dave and I would check the tides in the Vancouver Sun paper to make sure we would get a high tide while down there or it was hike back in the bush with your belly boat on your back wearing thick neoprene waders. Need to lose weight? That does the trick when we fucked up.
> 
> ...


I should take pics of my tackle collection.. I could probably open a shop.


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## SchmoeJoe (Apr 24, 2018)

ANC said:


> I should take pics of my tackle collection.. I could probably open a shop.


I hooked a huge Springer on a 00 mepps and 4# test. I played with it for awhile before I decided that I had to wait for it to come in close one more time so I could cut the line with the least amount of line in the water before it got out into the main flow and spooled me.


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## SchmoeJoe (Apr 24, 2018)

ANC said:


> You don't need to learn to fish trout.... earthworms, the fuckers can't resist them.


Even with bait you have to learn to maintain a dead drift.


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## OldMedUser (Apr 24, 2018)

Down there they got fish for their hatcheries by sports fishing for them. That way they used stock that was inclined to hit lures. Unlike here where they net them out of the river.

Sure miss stocking my freezer with coho every fall. So rarely eat fish the last 17 years since moving up north. So f'n expensive but a fish truck comes around once in a while with good stuff if you can afford it.

Gonna get my belly boat fixed up and do some fishing this year. Stocked lake about an hour away so can do some trout fishing on my grandpa's old fiberglass fly rod. Big lake with pike and walley an hour the other way.


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## OldMedUser (Apr 24, 2018)

ANC said:


> I should take pics of my tackle collection.. I could probably open a shop.


I got shitloads of stuff too. Grandpa's and dad's stuff. Lot of salt water gear. 20 or so rods for almost everything. Some salmon plugs and stuff that is almost a 100 years old. His old 6wt. fly rod he bought in 1946 and my dad said he remembers grandma bitching him out for wasting a whole week's pay on a fishing pole. Real high tech for it's day. Heavy but casts a 6wt. double taper line like magic. Can power a weight forward really fine too. Every time I catch a fish on that rod I look up and say, This one's for you gramps! Been a while but this summer for sure!


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## OldMedUser (Apr 24, 2018)

SchmoeJoe said:


> Even with bait you have to learn to maintain a dead drift.


There was a slough on the way to the Chilliwack that was perfect for dead drifting a worm and nailing steelies and coho in season. Trout all year round. Big sucker fish and carp too. I made my own floats out of balsa wood and painted up with a coat of epoxy rod finish. Got a bunch of tiny eye hooks and would put one at the bottom with a short piece of surgical tubing at the top to hold the line. Put the line through the tubing first then the eye on the float. Can adjust depth in a second and just the top half of the float would show with a 3/0 hook with half a dew worm threaded on it so just the point showed outside the worm. The slightest touch would pull the float under then just hit it hard. Good fish could run a 100 yds of line out in one long run. Love that noodle rod for that. Small spin reel on it. That's where I took both my boys to catch their first fish.


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## SchmoeJoe (Apr 24, 2018)

OldMedUser said:


> There was a slough on the way to the Chilliwack that was perfect for dead drifting a worm and nailing steelies and coho in season. Trout all year round. Big sucker fish and carp too. I made my own floats out of balsa wood and painted up with a coat of epoxy rod finish. Got a bunch of tiny eye hooks and would put one at the bottom with a short piece of surgical tubing at the top to hold the line. Put the line through the tubing first then the eye on the float. Can adjust depth in a second and just the top half of the float would show with a 3/0 hook with half a dew worm threaded on it so just the point showed outside the worm. The slightest touch would pull the float under then just hit it hard. Good fish could run a 100 yds of line out in one long run. Love that noodle rod for that. Small spin reel on it. That's where I took both my boys to catch their first fish.


I had a 9'6" UL Lamiglas with a slow action that I picked up just for drift fishing for trout. That rod was so much fun on smaller streams.


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## OldMedUser (Apr 24, 2018)

SchmoeJoe said:


> I hooked a huge Springer on a 00 mepps and 4# test. I played with it for awhile before I decided that I had to wait for it to come in close one more time so I could cut the line with the least amount of line in the water before it got out into the main flow and spooled me.


Big springs or any big fish is a lot of fun in a belly boat. Tow you around or end up running circles around you and you're sitting in the middle of the river laughing your ass off going round and round. High as a kite of course and likely 2 sheets to the wind as well.

Always lots of coho/silvers from mid-october 'til end of Nov or later with chums/dogs starting mid-nov. Steelies would start around Xmas and good to fish to mid-march then it was kelts trying to get back to the ocean so I'd leave them alone. They are skin and bones and the stress of getting caught would kill most. Always single barbless hooks and I was doing that on my own when I was 10 so I wouldn't hurt small trout at our cabin. Law now and for a long time in BC for fresh water and I think tidal waters now too.

Really miss fishing in the salt chuck too. There be monsters in the deeps laddie!


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## OldMedUser (Apr 24, 2018)

Forgot about the pinks on alternate years. Big runs when they showed up and easy to catch for kids. About 5lbs max but a thrill for a kid and fun on the fly rod. Small summer runs of white spring too. Caught a 26 pounder by accident one year and the little size 6 hook on a trout spinner got right in the main vein of the gills and it was pumping out blood so I kept it tho that was a no-no. Was just going to die anyway and if I hadn't hooked it like that I never would have landed it. Very low water and he near got me around a couple big logs sticking up in the river. 

I got a picture somewhere but it might be hard copy but I have a scanner. Now to find it but not tonight.


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## Lucky Luke (Apr 25, 2018)

Once its cultivated its no longer a land race.


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## SchmoeJoe (Apr 25, 2018)

OldMedUser said:


> Big springs or any big fish is a lot of fun in a belly boat. Tow you around or end up running circles around you and you're sitting in the middle of the river laughing your ass off going round and round. High as a kite of course and likely 2 sheets to the wind as well.
> 
> Always lots of coho/silvers from mid-october 'til end of Nov or later with chums/dogs starting mid-nov. Steelies would start around Xmas and good to fish to mid-march then it was kelts trying to get back to the ocean so I'd leave them alone. They are skin and bones and the stress of getting caught would kill most. Always single barbless hooks and I was doing that on my own when I was 10 so I wouldn't hurt small trout at our cabin. Law now and for a long time in BC for fresh water and I think tidal waters now too.
> 
> Really miss fishing in the salt chuck too. There be monsters in the deeps laddie!


I'm a big fan of single siwash hooks.


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## OldMedUser (Apr 25, 2018)

Lucky Luke said:


> Once its cultivated its no longer a land race.


How do you figure that?

As long as you don't cross a land race with another phenotype it's still a land race.

It's just a domesticated land race.


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## OldMedUser (Apr 25, 2018)

SchmoeJoe said:


> I'm a big fan of single siwash hooks.


I've got about a dozen different sizes of those. Most lures come with treble hooks so I curl the tips into the shaft so they won't snag anything. or snip them off if the hook is brittle, then take them off and replace with a Siwash of appropriate size. Some lures include one in the pack now but they still have a treble on the lure.

When I was really into tying lots of flies I bought my hooks in boxes of 50 or 100 and have everything from size 32 to 2/0 3x long. Don't think I could see a size 32 anymore much less tie anything on one. 

A couple of months before we made the move up here I found some bugs in my fur and feathers so put them in a garbage bag with a box of moth balls and left it to kill all the bugs. During the move it must have ended up in the pile that went to the dump. Couple of thousand dollars worth of stuff I'd accumulated over 2 decades. Still hurting over that loss. Been collecting feathers from some of the chickens the wife gets and was thinking of raising exotic birds to sell feathers to shops but another idea that never came to life.


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## newgrow16 (Apr 25, 2018)

OldMedUser said:


> Forgot about the pinks on alternate years. Big runs when they showed up and easy to catch for kids. About 5lbs max but a thrill for a kid and fun on the fly rod. Small summer runs of white spring too. Caught a 26 pounder by accident one year and the little size 6 hook on a trout spinner got right in the main vein of the gills and it was pumping out blood so I kept it tho that was a no-no. Was just going to die anyway and if I hadn't hooked it like that I never would have landed it. Very low water and he near got me around a couple big logs sticking up in the river.
> 
> I got a picture somewhere but it might be hard copy but I have a scanner. Now to find it but not tonight.


And once caught they become "Land-Race" and very nice when smoked!!


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## SchmoeJoe (Apr 25, 2018)

OldMedUser said:


> I've got about a dozen different sizes of those. Most lures come with treble hooks so I curl the tips into the shaft so they won't snag anything. or snip them off if the hook is brittle, then take them off and replace with a Siwash of appropriate size. Some lures include one in the pack now but they still have a treble on the lure.
> 
> When I was really into tying lots of flies I bought my hooks in boxes of 50 or 100 and have everything from size 32 to 2/0 3x long. Don't think I could see a size 32 anymore much less tie anything on one.
> 
> A couple of months before we made the move up here I found some bugs in my fur and feathers so put them in a garbage bag with a box of moth balls and left it to kill all the bugs. During the move it must have ended up in the pile that went to the dump. Couple of thousand dollars worth of stuff I'd accumulated over 2 decades. Still hurting over that loss. Been collecting feathers from some of the chickens the wife gets and was thinking of raising exotic birds to sell feathers to shops but another idea that never came to life.


Raising specific birds for supplying fly shops is a good idea. Certain extinctions from back in the day have been attributed to specific salmon flies. You could even find a premium market for ethically raised and harvested materials.


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## Lucky Luke (Apr 25, 2018)

OldMedUser said:


> How do you figure that?
> 
> As long as you don't cross a land race with another phenotype it's still a land race.
> 
> It's just a domesticated land race.


Because Kevin Jordrey tells me so. Domesticated land race sounds like a cultervated strain to me.


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## OldMedUser (Apr 25, 2018)

Lucky Luke said:


> Because Kevin Jordrey tells me so. Domesticated land race sounds like a cultervated strain to me.


It's the same genetics and that doesn't change just because it's cultivated. I'm not impressed with YouTube hucksters myself. Who signs his paycheques?


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## Lucky Luke (Apr 25, 2018)

OldMedUser said:


> It's the same genetics and that doesn't change just because it's cultivated. I'm not impressed with YouTube hucksters myself. Who signs his paycheques?



He does... 




Google his name or Wonderland Nursery. One of the best in the bizz and not a greedy MF like some.


Meet the breeders is a good series he supports.


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## OzCocoLoco (May 9, 2018)

OldMedUser said:


> It's the same genetics and that doesn't change just because it's cultivated. I'm not impressed with YouTube hucksters myself. Who signs his paycheques?


Once a selection has been made which invariably happens when we cultivate any type of plant then it can't be considered a landrace because a genetic bottleneck will have been formed so the genetics aren't the same


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## OLD MOTHER SATIVA (May 9, 2018)

more i hear kevin talk the more i think stfu Kevvy


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## dabby duck (May 9, 2018)

OldMedUser said:


> Steelhead are actually just ocean run rainbow trout. Rainbow trout - Salmo Gardenari, Steelhead - Salmo Gardenari Gardenari. Pretty sure that's correct but don't have my notebook from the post-graduate fisheries management course I took in


Good stuff, I believe the difference lies in rainbows are considersed "landlocked" and spawn and live in freshwater, while steels are anadromous ie go out to sea and return to freshwater to spawn. 

Same distinction lies with Atlantic Red salmon and kokanee; kokanee are genetically the same, just never leave freshwater. Not all salmonids are in these categories, pretty interesting. 

@op
Need to look thru my bookmarks and find link, but there is something like 130+ cases for different Cannabis spp. Nomenclature. 

If we are going to simplify, I say start with chemotype genotype, then phenotype as categories. 

I would like to see more data collected and used on breeding coeffiecients and someone posted something back on hardy weinberg principle, but didnt account for dioecious diploids, which is fine if you want to investigate monoecious ttraits, aka 99% or more of what are termed "herms", like hemp varieties, most of which are monoecious both fiber and seed bearing varieties. 


The Hw principle can generate allelle and genotype frequency within your pool. So if using regular filial generated seeds you must account for allele variation in dioiecious [separate male female plants and 7% of plant life, including cukes, willows, stinging nettle, hops and kanna] plants, but an interesting tool without lab analysis. 

On the horizon is chemotype solidly linked to genotype and I believe at least in commercial manufacture, phenotypical crap will be done away with, basically all foklore legends of male selection, lol. 
I see alot of mention towards phenotypical traits and personally like this method the least, it works but leads to some unneccesary dead ends. I almost never select for weight or looks, always the pharacology first...just my add. 
Stay high


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## SchmoeJoe (May 9, 2018)

dabby duck said:


> Good stuff, I believe the difference lies in rainbows are considersed "landlocked" and spawn and live in freshwater, while steels are anadromous ie go out to sea and return to freshwater to spawn.
> 
> Same distinction lies with Atlantic Red salmon and kokanee; kokanee are genetically the same, just never leave freshwater. Not all salmonids are in these categories, pretty interesting.
> 
> That's the thing. That's what every body believed but a study carried out over 30 years on the Hood River in Oregon found that in rivers with steelhead and resident rainbows they actually breed together and I believe the offspring were 75%/25% resident rainbow to steelhead.


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## dabby duck (May 12, 2018)

Actually what it found was that the anadromous / freshwater differentation exists, it was just that 40% of returning steelies, had some amount of rainbow genes and at one time they were separate species. They speculated on spawning stock since it wasnt all mitochondrial dna, but speculation centered around keeping the genes "freshened", basically f1 polyhybrids and that sought after vigor. I havent read the full paper in awhile, but cant remeber asection analyzing rainbows for steels dna, which raises a flag in the back of my mind...
http://today.oregonstate.edu/archives/2011/jan/wild-rainbow-trout-critical-health-steelhead-populations


On top of all this, and You might not believe me , but i am an Osu alum in forestry and freshwater, originally from the Hood, River. Gilhooley mountain bred. Not that I am right either, i am more adept at bull trout and water chemistry, although my grandfather 85+ is still a working cherry rancher in the valley and we have takled at length about this issue, just recently because of the dam situation that governor has newly proposed, cluster funk, clusterfunk.


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## SchmoeJoe (May 13, 2018)

dabby duck said:


> Actually what it found was that the anadromous / freshwater differentation exists, it was just that 40% of returning steelies, had some amount of rainbow genes and at one time they were separate species. They speculated on spawning stock since it wasnt all mitochondrial dna, but speculation centered around keeping the genes "freshened", basically f1 polyhybrids and that sought after vigor. I havent read the full paper in awhile, but cant remeber asection analyzing rainbows for steels dna, which raises a flag in the back of my mind...
> http://today.oregonstate.edu/archives/2011/jan/wild-rainbow-trout-critical-health-steelhead-populations
> 
> 
> On top of all this, and You might not believe me , but i am an Osu alum in forestry and freshwater, originally from the Hood, River. Gilhooley mountain bred. Not that I am right either, i am more adept at bull trout and water chemistry, although my grandfather 85+ is still a working cherry rancher in the valley and we have takled at length about this issue, just recently because of the dam situation that governor has newly proposed, cluster funk, clusterfunk.


My dad told me stories about being the first hippy in the hood drainage working the orchards. Some funny stories. Apparently the lockup for police confiscated property was essentially just a big tool shed. Oops.


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## SchmoeJoe (May 13, 2018)

dabby duck said:


> Actually what it found was that the anadromous / freshwater differentation exists, it was just that 40% of returning steelies, had some amount of rainbow genes and at one time they were separate species. They speculated on spawning stock since it wasnt all mitochondrial dna, but speculation centered around keeping the genes "freshened", basically f1 polyhybrids and that sought after vigor. I havent read the full paper in awhile, but cant remeber asection analyzing rainbows for steels dna, which raises a flag in the back of my mind...
> http://today.oregonstate.edu/archives/2011/jan/wild-rainbow-trout-critical-health-steelhead-populations
> 
> 
> On top of all this, and You might not believe me , but i am an Osu alum in forestry and freshwater, originally from the Hood, River. Gilhooley mountain bred. Not that I am right either, i am more adept at bull trout and water chemistry, although my grandfather 85+ is still a working cherry rancher in the valley and we have takled at length about this issue, just recently because of the dam situation that governor has newly proposed, cluster funk, clusterfunk.





dabby duck said:


> Actually what it found was that the anadromous / freshwater differentation exists, it was just that 40% of returning steelies, had some amount of rainbow genes and at one time they were separate species. They speculated on spawning stock since it wasnt all mitochondrial dna, but speculation centered around keeping the genes "freshened", basically f1 polyhybrids and that sought after vigor. I havent read the full paper in awhile, but cant remeber asection analyzing rainbows for steels dna, which raises a flag in the back of my mind...
> http://today.oregonstate.edu/archives/2011/jan/wild-rainbow-trout-critical-health-steelhead-populations
> 
> 
> On top of all this, and You might not believe me , but i am an Osu alum in forestry and freshwater, originally from the Hood, River. Gilhooley mountain bred. Not that I am right either, i am more adept at bull trout and water chemistry, although my grandfather 85+ is still a working cherry rancher in the valley and we have takled at length about this issue, just recently because of the dam situation that governor has newly proposed, cluster funk, clusterfunk.





dabby duck said:


> Actually what it found was that the anadromous / freshwater differentation exists, it was just that 40% of returning steelies, had some amount of rainbow genes and at one time they were separate species. They speculated on spawning stock since it wasnt all mitochondrial dna, but speculation centered around keeping the genes "freshened", basically f1 polyhybrids and that sought after vigor. I havent read the full paper in awhile, but cant remeber asection analyzing rainbows for steels dna, which raises a flag in the back of my mind...
> http://today.oregonstate.edu/archives/2011/jan/wild-rainbow-trout-critical-health-steelhead-populations
> 
> 
> On top of all this, and You might not believe me , but i am an Osu alum in forestry and freshwater, originally from the Hood, River. Gilhooley mountain bred. Not that I am right either, i am more adept at bull trout and water chemistry, although my grandfather 85+ is still a working cherry rancher in the valley and we have takled at length about this issue, just recently because of the dam situation that governor has newly proposed, cluster funk, clusterfunk.


Apparently I don't have permission to post a link but this is the opening part of the article. I haven't actually read the original research paper.


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## Gquebed (May 24, 2018)

Is thread about fish or weed? Lol

Anyway, i read a couple times now that sativas are actually indicas and vice versa.

Apparently, there was a mistake that reversed the two in a scientific classification paper written many many years ago. 

Dunno if that is bullshit or not, but i thought i would throw it out here to see if anybody knows anything about it???


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## nonamedman420 (May 25, 2018)

SchmoeJoe said:


> Apparently I don't have permission to post a link but this is the opening part of the article. I haven't actually read the original research paper.
> View attachment 4135164


you can drag and drop links, it's the way i get around quoting outside articles.


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## Miyagismokes (May 25, 2018)

OldMedUser said:


> It's the same genetics and that doesn't change just because it's cultivated.


Selection pressures are immediately different. Genetic drift will happen.


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## SchmoeJoe (May 25, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> Selection pressures are immediately different. Genetic drift will happen.


I think this might just be the first time I've seen someone use the term "genetic drift" for it's proper meaning.


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## Beachwalker (May 30, 2018)

https://www.rollitup.org/t/scientist-says-all-cannabis-basically-the-same.965129/


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## Northernone666 (Aug 20, 2018)

Tektek said:


> Cannabis is one of the first plants cultivated by humans. I think classification is simplified by using 4 species. Cannabis ruderalis, C. indica, C. sativa and C. hemp.
> 
> C. ruderalis has origins in central Asia. Usually less than 2 ft tall, spindly, auto-flowering, maybe 1% THC and CBD. It could be the ancestor of the other species. Natural and human selection created land races adapted to different latitudes and climates.
> 
> ...


Very Kool good info thank you


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## Antitheist (Aug 22, 2018)

SchmoeJoe said:


> It was also learned that steelhead routinely breed with resident rainbows.


They are the same fish. I don't understand how this could have recently been learned when it's been known for a very long time. Maybe you're talking about some study on a specific stream that flows into a large lake?


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## SchmoeJoe (Aug 22, 2018)

Antitheist said:


> They are the same fish. I don't understand how this could have recently been learned when it's been known for a very long time. Maybe you're talking about some study on a specific stream that flows into a large lake?


The common understanding was that they were essentially cousins and not literally the same fish. The study was on the Hood River which flows into the Columbia River.


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## Antitheist (Aug 22, 2018)

SchmoeJoe said:


> The common understanding was that they were essentially cousins and not literally the same fish. The study was on the Hood River which flows into the Columbia River.


My brother teaches aquaculture at a large university. We have been fishing for trout since the 90s. He told me they were the same fish back then when he was in college. I can't list his sources of course. 

I think it's been common knowledge that they are the same fish for quite some time. Steelhead are rainbows that leave the stream to live in some larger body of water for some time. They lose some of their markings while doing this. Several theories as to why but it looks like diet has a lot to do with it. The trout with high anxiety stay in the stream. Better to be a big fish in a small stream they must figure.


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## Lucky Luke (Aug 22, 2018)

Same fish, always have been. We just call them Ocean going Trout in my state.


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## Antitheist (Aug 22, 2018)

Lucky Luke said:


> Same fish, always have been. We just call them Ocean going Trout in my state.


Yeah in the midwest they call something a perch in every area that isn't a perch. It might be a sunfish, drum, even shad. Depends which redneck you're talking too. They almost never mean a yellow perch. 
Steelhead is one of those things. It came from the great lakes region. Some guys just feel more like a man when they say they caught a steelhead vs rainbow. Maybe they are just homophobes?...idk


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## SchmoeJoe (Aug 22, 2018)

Antitheist said:


> Yeah in the midwest they call something a perch in every area that isn't a perch. It might be a sunfish, drum, even shad. Depends which redneck you're talking too. They almost never mean a yellow perch.
> Steelhead is one of those things. It came from the great lakes region. Some guys just feel more like a man when they say they caught a steelhead vs rainbow. Maybe they are just homophobes?...idk


Steelhead don't come from the Great Lakes. They're native to the Pacific Northwest and we're introduced to the Great Lakes the same as Chinook Salmon.


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## Antitheist (Aug 22, 2018)

SchmoeJoe said:


> Steelhead don't come from the Great Lakes. They're native to the Pacific Northwest and we're introduced to the Great Lakes the same as Chinook Salmon.


You're missing the point but you are correct . Rainbows come from the western side of the Rockies . Cutthroat trout would be their closest relative living in the streams that flow east from the rockies. Those are their natural ranges. We have stocked trout all over though. 1 trout stream in the state I live in. Brookies are the only natural species but they've stocked rainbows, cutthroats and brown trout. The browns are the black forest strain from Germany I think. Trout are everywhere there is good enough water quality at this point. Man has put them there. In Illinois we stock lots of small lakes with trout in the fall just for most to die in summer. It seems crazy.
In any case, I was saying the name steelhead. Not the fish steelhead which is just a rainbow trout in any part of the country that swam into bigger water and left the stream for awhile. They lose the pink stripe. There is no steelhead/ rainbow hybrid because they are in fact the same fish. Has been since rainbows and cutthroats shared a common ancestor and human beings were tree dwellers.
Trout are one of the best displays of evolution. I have a trout of the world map somewhere that includes salmon and artic char. It's fairly easy to look at a trout from one part of the world and see how closely related it is to one from somewhere else. They all have evolved from one fish that swam in a worldwide ocean eons ago. As the waters receded some got trapped. Over millenia they evolved to better suit their habitat that their ancestors were trapped in.


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## SchmoeJoe (Aug 22, 2018)

Antitheist said:


> You're missing the point but you are correct . Rainbows come from the western side of the Rockies . Cutthroat trout would be their closest relative living in the streams that flow east from the rockies. Those are their natural ranges. We have stocked trout all over though. 1 trout stream in the state I live in. Brookies are the only natural species but they've stocked rainbows, cutthroats and brown trout. The browns are the black forest strain from Germany I think. Trout are everywhere there is good enough water quality at this point. Man has put them there. In Illinois we stock lots of small lakes with trout in the fall just for most to die in summer. It seems crazy.
> In any case, I was saying the name steelhead. Not the fish steelhead which is just a rainbow trout in any part of the country that swam into bigger water and left the stream for awhile. They lose the pink stripe. There is no steelhead/ rainbow hybrid because they are in fact the same fish. Has been since rainbows and cutthroats shared a common ancestor and human beings were tree dwellers.
> Trout are one of the best displays of evolution. I have a trout of the world map somewhere that includes salmon and artic char. It's fairly easy to look at a trout from one part of the world and see how closely related it is to one from somewhere else. They all have evolved from one fish that swam in a worldwide ocean eons ago. As the waters receded some got trapped. Over millenia they evolved to better suit their habitat that their ancestors were trapped in.


There are a lot of of different kinds of rainbows and cutthroats each native to their own particular region. My point, which you missed, is that you don't know what you're talking about.


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## Hashishh (Aug 22, 2018)

Actually, I did a quick google and the Government of Alaska says they're the same species.

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=steelhead.main

Would like to learn more. Personally they don't have either in my neck of the woods. Just brook and specs for the most part.


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## Antitheist (Aug 23, 2018)

SchmoeJoe said:


> There are a lot of of different kinds of rainbows and cutthroats each native to their own particular region. My point, which you missed, is that you don't know what you're talking about.



The lots of different kinds of rainbows you are talking about are called strains. They haven't been separated as long as different species. No where near it . Like people in the south speak one way. People up north speak another. We are all still homo sapien.
Like I said my brother is the fish expert. I know my share. Evolution is my thing. I used both to demonstrate how you don't know shit. You just said I don't. Mine holds more weight.


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## SchmoeJoe (Aug 23, 2018)

Hashishh said:


> Actually, I did a quick google and the Government of Alaska says they're the same species.
> 
> http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=steelhead.main
> 
> Would like to learn more. Personally they don't have either in my neck of the woods. Just brook and specs for the most part.





Antitheist said:


> The lots of different kinds of rainbows you are talking about are called strains. They haven't been separated as long as different species. No where near it . Like people in the south speak one way. People up north speak another. We are all still homo sapien.
> Like I said my brother is the fish expert. I know my share. Evolution is my thing. I used both to demonstrate how you don't know shit. You just said I don't. Mine holds more weight.


Rainbows are not native to the Rockies.


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## Hashishh (Aug 23, 2018)

SchmoeJoe said:


> Rainbows are not native to the Rockies.


"The rainbow trout is native to lakes and rivers in North America west of the Rocky Mountains. However, it has been introduced to bodies of water all over the world because of its popularity as a sporting fish."


https://www.canadiangeographic.ca/article/animal-facts-rainbow-trout


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## Antitheist (Aug 23, 2018)

SchmoeJoe said:


> Rainbows are not native to the Rockies.


Western side of the Rockies is it's native range man.


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## SchmoeJoe (Aug 23, 2018)

Antitheist said:


> Western side of the Rockies is it's native range man.


Not according to a single source I found. Man.


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## Hashishh (Aug 23, 2018)

SchmoeJoe said:


> Not according to a single source I found. Man.


Except for the quote and link I provided? Man.


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## SchmoeJoe (Aug 23, 2018)

Hashishh said:


> Except for the quote and link I provided? Man.


It says west of the Rockies. Not the western Rockies. You need to work on your reading comprehension.


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## Hashishh (Aug 23, 2018)

Also just another link that points out that they are in fact the same species AND are native to Canada/North America.

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/species-especes/profiles-profils/rainbow-trout-truite-arcenciel-eng.html

Look under "Habitat".


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## Hashishh (Aug 23, 2018)

SchmoeJoe said:


> It says west of the Rockies. Not the western Rockies. You need to work on your reading comprehension.


There's actually a really nice coloured picture that shows "range" of the trout.

My reading comprehension might not be the best but at least I can understand a picture.


Man.


And quite honestly, people like you are why this forum sucks. Just admit you're wrong and move on. Wouldn't mind an apology either for that comment. 

Seems people can't have a civilized discussion anymore.


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## fishwhistle1 (Aug 23, 2018)

And man are they fun to catch got a custom 13' St. Croix with a tournament drifter caught steel and browns all over the great lakes.
We have the Loch Levine strain of browns as well real beauties


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## fishwhistle1 (Aug 23, 2018)

So many things called a trout but really aren't brook trout/speckle trout are really a char same as lake trout they are from the char family as well.
Check out golden trout from the high sierras another sub species of rainbow trout almost interbred with rainbows to extinction because of stupid stocking practice's.
Apache Trout another cool one
and then the blueback trout from Maine really a land locked artic char
Aurora trout from northern Ontario (really really rare maybe 11 lakes)
the list goes on and on


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## Antitheist (Aug 23, 2018)

SchmoeJoe said:


> It says west of the Rockies. Not the western Rockies. You need to work on your reading comprehension.


Imao... I bet you use those little orange marshmallows as bait huh?



fishwhistle1 said:


> So many things called a trout but really aren't brook trout/speckle trout are really a char same as lake trout they are from the char family as well.
> Check out golden trout from the high sierras another sub species of rainbow trout almost interbred with rainbows to extinction because of stupid stocking practice's.
> Apache Trout another cool one
> and then the blueback trout from Maine really a land locked artic char
> ...


Russia has a ton of species too! Some that only exist in one giant lake.


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## Antitheist (Aug 23, 2018)

This book is a great read for those of you interested in trout.

https://www.amazon.com/Trout-World-James-Prosek/dp/1584791527


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## SchmoeJoe (Aug 24, 2018)

fishwhistle1 said:


> So many things called a trout but really aren't brook trout/speckle trout are really a char same as lake trout they are from the char family as well.
> Check out golden trout from the high sierras another sub species of rainbow trout almost interbred with rainbows to extinction because of stupid stocking practice's.
> Apache Trout another cool one
> and then the blueback trout from Maine really a land locked artic char
> ...


You forgot bull trout which are also actually a char.


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## SchmoeJoe (Aug 24, 2018)

Antitheist said:


> Imao... I bet you use those little orange marshmallows as bait huh?
> 
> When I do use bait it's either single salmon eggs or red wigglers. Mostly I just cast small lures.


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## SchmoeJoe (Aug 24, 2018)

Hashishh said:


> There's actually a really nice coloured picture that shows "range" of the trout.
> 
> My reading comprehension might not be the best but at least I can understand a picture.
> 
> ...


You told me I don't know what I was talking about long before I was even slightly rude. The picture that shows the range doesn't show anything of the Rockies being highlighted. It clearly says mountains west of the Rockies. Unless the Rocky mountains can somehow be west of the themselves than it's pretty clear that you didn't understand the sentence.


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## fishwhistle1 (Aug 24, 2018)

ah the doly varden you speak of


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## fishwhistle1 (Aug 24, 2018)

then we have the gmo fish category
splake cross between a speckle and laker
tiger trout cross between rainbow and brown


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## SchmoeJoe (Aug 24, 2018)

fishwhistle1 said:


> ah the doly varden you speak of


That's another one. Dolly Varden and Bull Trout are also two different things that people mistakenly use the names of interchangeably.


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## Hashishh (Aug 24, 2018)

SchmoeJoe said:


> You told me I don't know what I was talking about long before I was even slightly rude. The picture that shows the range doesn't show anything of the Rockies being highlighted. It clearly says mountains west of the Rockies. Unless the Rocky mountains can somehow be west of the themselves than it's pretty clear that you didn't understand the sentence.


Err.. No, I didn't. 

 

 

And yes... It does. Regardless I'm over it. 

At least we can all agree trout are fun to catch and I find even more fun to eat.

Anyone got some good recipes? Personally I season mine with bread crumbs and lemon pepper and fry with oil.


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## fishwhistle1 (Aug 24, 2018)

can you say Indian candy delicious or cedar plank that bitch on the que


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## fishwhistle1 (Aug 24, 2018)

SchmoeJoe said:


> That's another one. Dolly Varden and Bull Trout are also two different things that people mistakenly use the names of interchangeably.


Darwin was a pretty smart guy now wasn't he same fish just evolved differently because isolated from each other.


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## Hashishh (Aug 24, 2018)

fishwhistle1 said:


> can you say Indian candy delicious or cedar plank that bitch on the que


Mmm I've been tempted to smoke them on the barbeque with a bit of maple or cherry. Cedar plank would be good.

One time I forgot my frying pan when I went out. Didn't have a lighter or anything but managed to get a fire going with some sticks and a shoelace. Ended up throwing a big rock in the middle of the fire and letting it burn down to Embers. Threw a couple on the rock.
Not sure if I was just hungry and exhausted but I swear that was the most moist and flavourful brown I ever had.


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## SchmoeJoe (Aug 24, 2018)

Hashishh said:


> Err.. No, I didn't.
> 
> View attachment 4186280
> 
> ...


Wrapped in a dozen or so maple leaves and thrown straight in the coals.


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## SchmoeJoe (Aug 26, 2018)

Hashishh said:


> Err.. No, I didn't.
> 
> View attachment 4186280
> 
> ...


You were right about at least one thing. It was someone else's comment that I was responding to and not yours. For that I owe you an apology. I'm sorry about that.


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