# Extraction methods. Need help and explanations.



## orre (Jan 22, 2020)

Hi all! Thank you for the forum! 

First to introduce myself, I have been a lifelong hash-smoker, but gave that up many years ago... So smoking isn't why I found my way here.
I live in Norway where insight about cannabis is about zero, and people still think its mostly the same as Heroin… (Thank you UN…)
Here we are not even allowed to grow industrial Hemp, and people are still held in the dark about what happened in the US in the early 1900's, and the REAL benefit of this plant and its estimated 50 000 different uses...
Due to changes with cannabis laws elsewhere in the world, and that the enormous CBD-business have even reached our borders, it IS getting a bit more "possible" to talk about cannabis though! YEY! As it seems to be everywhere, it is still all about medical use though, and our government seems completely in the leash of the pharmaceutical industry, but still a step in the right direction! 

-For myself and my closest surrounding, the big thing is this CBD-boom has led to that I can finally talk with my family about this amazing plant! and I have high hopes this could actually help my loved ones with serious medical problems!!
Their interest for cannabis as medical drug has certainly gain interest due to the talk about those "close to legal" CBD products from hemp! And I am eager to follow up on this with "the real deal"! 

I still now little about medical use, as I said I have only been a "recreational smoker" all my life, but lately I have been reading about it quite a lot, and I understand that "modern science" insight about our endocannabinoid system is actually quite new knowledge.
Reading about it, it seems quite clear that it is the complete interaction of ALL parts of the plant that makes miracles though. And even if science cannot explain it all, it seems quite clear that its this ENTOURAGE-EFFECT we want to grasp for medical use!
To me this also makes sense in the matter of it all being "an act of balancing"!... 

So, I have been seeing this Canadian guy Rick Simpson doing an amazing job fighting community with what I understand only small amounts of knowledge, but with believes and proof that people really can get amazing results just by ingesting raw oil! With cannabis probably being around for the life of all mankind, of course this guy does not provide us with any big news, but I understand the main point of his, is to proof that it IS available for everyone. (Also Canada for a fact actually have changed their laws lately!..)

Trying to find extracted oil, and to get a better understanding of extraction methods pros and cons, I find it hard to grasp what really is the best way to extract cannabis for medical use?… Most all information is all about cannabis as a recreational drug and extraction is meant for smoking and vaping, and then is of course all about flavours, taste and function.
And when the big companies talk about their medical drugs it all seems to be about extracting clean components, and then putting a few of those components together in exact measurements in a lab…

This seem quite poor when we know that the plant produces way over 100 different cannabinoids! Plus all other components (that I neither know nothing about….)

I like that RSO in the matter of taking the plant for what it is! And when it comes to eating half a grain oil three times a day, I really do not care about neither what it tastes or how I looks!!... But of course, I am not into digesting naphtha! And I do not want to lose important ingredients due to shortcuts! So when people tells this is really not a good way of extraction, I want to learn more about other ways!

So I read that another way better method is this simple QWISO method, that with a much more clean approach collect more or less the same amount of trichomes! -But then this also seem to be the ONLY purpose with QWISO? Or am I wrong?..

I did find an article with the interesting olive oil extraction method, that seem to be very gentle and might give exactly what we are looking for to be a medical decoction?. But then again it might not be much of an extraction?...

I am also thinking It might be beneficial to combine different methods. E.g. extracting (or buying) "pure" THC oil for example with the qwiso method, and mixing it with "pure" CBD oil from hemp, with all the other cannabinoids and stuff?

Also, I understand decarbing does cost the loss of terpenes, so I am thinking you could also get that part back in the game by combining two ore more kind of oils?...

As you understand I am a complete noob about this, so any help about what the recommended approach for making oil for pure medical use is very appreciated!
I am quite convinced we should NOT look away from the ENTOURAGE-EFFECT though!...

I'll try to add an interesting lab-test .pdf article I have found comparing extraction methods.
Any comments are appreciated.

Thank you!
/Orre

Ps. As a noob I found most links in the newbie 101 are dead...

Edited some bad English spelling and such...


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## fragileassassin (Jan 22, 2020)

Youve said a lot, but im not really sure what bigger questions youre asking directly or what youre trying to do or looking for.

Solvents, heat, and pressure are how things are extracted. Each way will produce a different final product. There's a lot of processing involved with most solvent extractions. 
Most things ive seen at dispensaries in the US, even on the medical side, tend to focus on just THC content and you lose a lof of other content. Their focus is primarily to get you high. 
There are plenty of way to get a full spectrum extraction.


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## orre (Jan 22, 2020)

Thanks for answering @fragileassassin 

Yes I know... Lot of text... And sorry for bad english...  

The solvent processing I have read about doing QWISO and RSO seems easy enough? But as I said I believe pure THC focus isn't what medical oil should be about. That is what I have tried to explain...
I want to know about DIY extraction methods for to keep as much of the plants natural powers as possible. Full spectrum as you say.
I understand different methods include loosing different substances, that is why I am thinking of combining products.. 
Does what I say make any sense?... 

Please tell me where to find those different full spectrum extraction methods!

Thank you.
/Orre


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## fragileassassin (Jan 22, 2020)

orre said:


> Thanks for answering @fragileassassin
> 
> Yes I know... Lot of text... And sorry for bad english...
> 
> ...


The easiest and safest ways to do it at home would to be use a high proof alcohol like everclear and make an ingestible extract like the RSO. If you use alcohol, eat it or take it as a pill dont smoke it.
Or
Using a heated press to make rosin would be your go to for a smokable extraction. 
Or
If you want to cook with it and make edibles you can do oil extractions with stuff like coconut oil, butter, or olive oil like you said. I usually go for the coconut oil. This is as simple as hearing the flower and oil mixture at the proper temperature for the right amount of time. I have done this method with vegetable glycerin to use to make normal vape juice. It was a royal pain, but it worked. They make machines and special pots you can use on the stove that will make oil/butter extractions very straight forward.

Anything that isnt going to be smoked, should be decarbed before making the extraction. Heat is a necessary evil. You will burn some off yes, though if you do it properly it is minimal, but if you dont decarb you wont get the full effect of your extracts if you dont heat them or bake with them after.

Most of the solvent methods need special equipment like vacuum pumps and are illegal to do at home in some places. In my state, it is illegal to make extracts at home with ANY flammable solvent. Alcohol is even a flammable solvent so I technically wouldn't even be allowed to make rso at home.

I built a little diy heat press out of a $40 arbor press and a hair straightener that worked quite well. You can make a pretty nice hydraulic heated press for a few hundred dollars.


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## orre (Jan 22, 2020)

Ok. thanks. 

Smoking is not in question. Probably did not clear that out.
Neither edibles. It is not intent to be fun... ha ha ha...  

I want to make a pure medicine, and taste and looks is not important.
Of course making pills or capsules is a nice touch! -Then they have to be "weak" enough too, so I have been thinking an oil-mixed extract might not be all disadvantages... 
Using oil instead of alcohol is absolutely of interest! -And I have read coconut oil have other usable "features"..

Nothing about this is legal where I live anyway, and IPA is quite easy and not too expensive to get hold on.

Yes I am aware of the need to decarb for the THC to "switch", and therefore thinking of combining oils that is not heated that high. 

I have to look into what you mean about pressing process...

You have all to excuse my ignorance. But mostly I wondered why I read at this forum that "everyone" disapproves that RSO method? 
I understand that this is not how you make nice oil to smoke, but that was never the intention either!
I also understand long soaking time release chlorophyll and maybe other stuff that is not of interest when you want a nice tasting oil. 
But when it has nothing to do with taste or looks, only to harvest the most of this plant to make a medical extract!??...

It has to do with the boiling then? And/or boiling time? To me this seem quite more harsh to the material then just decarbing dry buds in the oven. Is this what the protests are about?
On the other hand I do not quite understand if a 5 minutes frozen wash could get anything but tricoids off the plant?

Could someone explain why this RSO is such a big NO-NO?... 

And on the other hand please explain what the benefit might be! (except the purpose of making it available to the masses)
(How could this boiling alcohol thing be considered more easy and safe for anyone then QWISO btw??)

/Orre


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## orre (Jan 25, 2020)

Sorry to bump. 
I'll try to ask once more for some explanation, or some tip where to read further.

(Just to mention, I have read about the Holy Anointing Oil and the Holy Shit, and that really looks interesting! Thank you for telling!)  

I have also read from several what I understand highly knowledgeable members here that RSO is a big no-no, but I haven't quite figured out WHY?
In one of the threads here I have picked up following statements:

@qwizoking say:


> If cannabinoids are the "medicine" why would you not only want to evaporate the terpenes but severely dilute this medicine
> Go buy a bottle of chlorophyll if you feel that will help you..
> If your wanting cannabis for medical purposes..you would want cannabinoids terpenes esters etc that all carry over benefits. These are what makes our plant special.
> Or you can destroy them through pyrolisis denaturing sensitive terps to shit...
> ...





> Now these compounds don't like heat light oxygen chlorine etc.. and will break down quite quickly using ricks suggested methods..he does openly admit that he has no scientific background..
> We do not condone his practices here





> Rso is made by someone who has no idea what he's doing, that's why he started out with this method and even suggesting dangerous practices
> Qwiso is an extremely simple process and not in including the freeze beforehand or the evaporation afterwords takes less than 5 minutes to make. And yes will have the same or rather more medicinal benefits than rso


I also understand the member @Fadedawg have had discussions with Rick Simpson about his methods, but I have yet to clear out what it is about?..
One statement of his is:


> The primary reason for extracting fresh frozen material, is to retain the material in carboxylic acid form, and to retain more of the aromatic monoterpenes. Important for material primarily used for vaporizing.
> If you are going to ingest it orally, you will most likely be decarboxylating it anyway, which will also cost you the monoterpenes, so I would extract dry material, because it takes less runs for the same amount of oil.
> QK made the point that when you extract and concentrate the diterpene cannabinoids, you do the same thing to the mono and sesquiterpenes, so it starts out more pungent than the original material.
> It may or may not be suitable leaving it in that condition, depending on the terpenes present, because some of the terpenes also add harshness and aren't tasty in heavy concentration.
> ...


I know to little about those components, but do I understand it correct that this is all about taste in the matter of smoke or vape?
Even I understand about not wanting to eat naphtha, but using IPA and boil it all away wouldn't leave any residues, would it?
Maybe you, or anybody else, could please point me in the direction of sorting this out. -What methods is preferable and why?.

Am I dead wrong aiming at finding the (or those) most "complete" extraction methods gaining most possible plant components for Entourage effect? 
When I do NOT want to smoke or vape anything, I do not understand why putting taste and looks into the picture??... 

IF this boiling alcohol method is totally unacceptable in every means, I just wanted to know WHY?

IF this frozen QWISO method really is everything you need to get the full benefit from the whole plant, I also want to get that explained. To my ignorance it seems quite impossible to compare this two methods!? 

Sorry that I probably stink trying to explain my thoughts in English...  

/Orre


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## Fadedawg (Jan 29, 2020)

The fish trap exists because of the fish, and as long as you get the fish, the design of the trap is of less importantance.

The word RSO has been expanded from its original meaning. Rick Simpson originally extracted his oil using Naphtha, which is the NO NO, because it may contain Benzene. You can do that same extraction with other non polar solvents like Butane, Pentane, Hexane, or Heptane.

Hexane is typically avoided because our livers turn it into 2.5 Hexane Dione, which is a carcinogen, leaving Butane, Pentane, or Heptane.

You can also extract the essential oils using Ethanol or Isopropanol. The key is to purge the remaining solvent below levels of concern, which are outlined in the attached FDA standard.


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## Sfrigon 1 (Jan 29, 2020)

orre said:


> Thanks for answering @fragileassassin
> 
> Yes I know... Lot of text... And sorry for bad english...
> 
> ...


Get a press?


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## orre (Jan 29, 2020)

@Fadedawg Thank you for getting back to me!
Yes I understand about Naphta and the difference to IPA. Thank you for the FDA guide!

I am still as blanc considering what method cleans the ocean for ALL fish though? 
As I said I understand the Entourage effect is of essence for an "all round" drug. And not being either a scientist or doctor, I interpret this as I might as well try to harvest as much as practical possible from this plant!? 

As you have this large medical forum, I thought this was of absolute essence for anyone in here???
I am obviously missing something!? 

As none of you guys this far is mentioning QWISO. Could I assume this is NOT catching all the fish? 
Otherwise I really like the simplicity and cleanliness of the method!

@Sfrigon 1 and @fragileassassin I thank you for pointing at pressing rosin! Never done that either, and It seems extremely clean and tasteful! 
It looks like you could expect to yield about half the weight comparing to QWISO though? 
I do not know how yield compares with boiling ISO? 

Also do not know about comparing the outcome considering the total of substances? 

Again, I am asking all in the favour of harvesting medicine! Not only beautiful smokes... 
Thanks 
/Orre


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## taint (Jan 29, 2020)

Sfrigon 1 said:


> Get a press?


Second this one.........solventless solves the issue.
Definitely improves quality as well when done correctly.
Mechanically separated thca is a game changer regards medical usage ime.


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## Sfrigon 1 (Jan 29, 2020)

Whatever u put in u will get out in theory. I have a press that I squeeze all my popcorn nugs w. And it also give me a chance to use up my trim . And in my opinion smoking rosin is the safest and best form of concentrate. Very similar high as smoking a j , which is what I desire


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## orre (Jan 29, 2020)

Thank you guys. 
I am digging into this rosin thing! 

@taint I guess the "solved issue" you refer to is mostly about the handling? -and of course getting rid of distasteful chlorophyll and waxes. Or are there other considerations you are thinking of?
I appreciate you say pressing is a game changer! I'd like to know more what really is in the rosin? 
-Any comparing lab reports to find somewhere? 

I found an old thread where @Fadedawg say:


> To dispel any personal biases, opinions, or secondary motives from the formula, I extracted one lot of Blue Dream using five different solvents, including Naphtha. I ran GC analysis in our own lab, and turned the samples over to a third party full blown analytical lab for testing, to show what the different solvents extract from the same material. More on that, when the lab sends the results.


But I haven't found any test results? This is of course highly interesting!
(This was written in 2013!)

Studying rosin pressing a bit more, it seems you could actually get as good or even better yield as with IPA extracting! 
And the process seems fairly easy! Press I have in my workshop! And for just a couple of minutes pressing time I would guess just pre-heating a couple of thick iron pieces would do the trick!?  
But I guess pressing @ ca.100°C/220°F is not considered decarbing? Are you doing that in the oven? Or on a plate? -Maybe in combination with oil-mixing?...

And I guess the residues makes a nice butter or something else oil/fat extracted stuff!... -Then you would in the end be digesting more or less the whole plant without no chemicals or explosives! YEY! 
Seems more and more appealing thinking about it! 

@Sfrigon 1 -I here I here!.. Can't quite believe my lungs haven't collapsed of all kilos of hashish I have smoked in my earlier days... God knows how much plastic and other garbage that has been mixed with... 
To day I do not want to smoke anything! Except maybe a piece of salmon... 

About pressing. The only ~100my. bags I can think of here, is the one used in aquariums. I do not know if they are to thick?
Is this bag needed. Would e.g. a coffee filter do the trick of avoiding large material pieces? 
(Again, this is solely for eating, so I guess it would be mixed with oil and used with a pipette)

/Orre


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## taint (Jan 29, 2020)

Dabpress Rosin Plates


Anodization is a industrial craft used on the metal surface. It'll improve the metal corrosion resistance, hardness, heat resistance. You may click below link to see how it looks like: https://www.dabpress.com/products/dp-rp37-diy-rosin-heat-plates And how to use anodized rosin plate kit...



fuckcombustion.com





Knowing is half the fun............beware this rabbit hole.


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## OldMedUser (Jan 29, 2020)

High orre

Here in Canada we now have legal pot but the new laws that came with Prohibition 2.0 now have a penalty of 14 years in prison for making concentrates with 'organic' solvents. Cooking with oils like coconut, olive etc are fine tho and I have my method in the link in my signature. I makes a whole plant extract and should preserve the terpenes etc that can be lost with other processing methods.

I am defying the law by making RSO for my wife to help with liver tumours but use the cocobudder with high CBD pot for my arthritis to good effect. Tinctures are a good way to make extracts but then the pot needs to be decarbed before it's added to alcohol and unless care is taken the terpenes, esters and other low boiling point components of the pot are lost during that process. I did just decarb an oz of bud in the oven for making RSO but sealed the pot up in tinfoil with a temperature probe in the centre of the pot to make sure it was evenly heated to 250F for 30 min then allowed to cool slowly in the oven before removing and soaking in ISO. Special sealed containers can be bought to do the decarb too.

Tell your gov't to get with the program and make cannabis legal so your people can enjoy the benefits without fear of reprisal.


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## tslonige (Jan 29, 2020)

This is the easiest, safest and cleanest method I have found. I replaced my painkilling opioids over a year ago. JMHO


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## orre (Jan 29, 2020)

@taint Yes it is fascinating stuff!  I have seen those different heating plates thank you! Easy to make too. 
In small scale I believe I could heat some steel quite a few times before wanting to spend that kind of money though...  

@OldMedUser Hi! And thanks for the howto! 
Strange and harsh rules when legalization is finally there! But I must say I am jealous of the access over there! Buying an oz of good buds is at least cad. 6-10 000!!...  -F_ck, farmers are not even allowed to grow THC-free industry-hemp here yet!!... 

I am just trying to get hold of some THC oil now to get started medicating my misses too. Finally! after many, many years of really painful sickness (she is among other a recovering cancer patient) we have just now came to the point that we can talk about cannabis here at home, and I am SO exited, and eager to the possibility to give her some relief!!... I will grow a few plants my self, hoping to get self-sufficing. But I would love to find a grower or dealer that could provide so I can make oil to help more people! -We all have friends and relatives that suffer!...
(I have read many of your posts here before @OldMedUser . Would it be rued of me to ask for some guiding via PM?)

@tslonige Thank you for the clip! "Do NOT freeze the heating plate and distiller" ha ha ha ha... 
I can see it is a "PhoenixTears" (Rick Simpson) film, so they are obviously not only promoting Naphtha!... Surprises me it is published already 2012!?... 

-Another thought about pressing:
If I press out rosin, and only decarb that, and then simmer the rest of the material in oil for a few hours, it seems to me I would have a quite potent oil, and the possibility to put a desired amount of the rosin, with THC and CBD back in the oil, without overheating the oil and loosing terpenes. 
Does this make sense?
Actually, looking at the lab test from different methods (att. to my first post) oil extraction seem to give the most yield of all measured substances!...
(They are comparing Naphtha, Ether, Ethanol and Olive oil extraction)

Would really love to see the outcome of @Fadedawg test rapports!... 

/Orre


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## Fadedawg (Jan 30, 2020)

orre said:


> @Fadedawg Thank you for getting back to me!
> Yes I understand about Naphta and the difference to IPA. Thank you for the FDA guide!
> 
> I am still as blanc considering what method cleans the ocean for ALL fish though?
> ...


You are making it too complicated. The terpenes and terpenoids in question are all soluble in all those solvents and how easy it is to purge, is more important than which one extracts the targeted constituents.

Consider that those targeted elements are located in the trichome heads. After extraction with any of the solvents I listed, the trichome heads are gone. If they didn't go into solution, where did they go? Do you not have all the fish in solution?

We've supplied Holy Anointing Oil and Holy Shit to multiple patient, made from either Alkanes or Ethanol, and they both work. Look at how Rick Simpson extracted and purged, including one technique with Isopropyl, and his RSO worked as well. 

I personally don't use Iso because purging is not as critical with Ethanol, and around 90% of medications that we supplied were extracted using closed loop BHO, with the other 10% Ethanol. We didn't see any difference in efficiency or effect.

Actually, producing pristine museum quality dabbing concentrates, is far more complicated than simply extracting the raw essential oil from cannabis and formulating it as a medicine, because of the concerted effort to not extract plant waxes and molecules longer than C-22, as well as to preserve all the mono and sesquiterpenes. Rick did RSO with a barrel of Naptha from the local heating supply store, and a rice cooker for purging. Take a look at the current equipment in use for recreational extractions.


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## Fadedawg (Jan 30, 2020)

orre said:


> Thank you guys.
> I am digging into this rosin thing!
> 
> @taint I guess the "solved issue" you refer to is mostly about the handling? -and of course getting rid of distasteful chlorophyll and waxes. Or are there other considerations you are thinking of?
> ...


The backup lab lost the samples and never came through, but our own GC showed minor differences and my reason for sending it out was for corroboration.


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## orre (Jan 30, 2020)

@Fadedawg Thank you very much bothering to educate a noob on the other side of the planet! 
I am really grateful and humble that you want to share your knowledge! If it doesn't seem that way I have to blame language...   

So you are saying the simple answer to all my questions is that ALL components of matter is all in the Trichomes! and do not bother look further??... 

This is what I have tried to figure out all along, what this post is all about, and why I keep nagging about the ECS and Entourage effect!... 
To me, this form of thinking "balance" and "synergy" does make perfect sense! (And I believe a 5000 year old Chinese medicine man wouldn't be too impressed..) 
Now with NO knowledge for either medicine or bioscience, my simple brain have interpret this as probably ALL part of the plant would carry substances, that might ALL be contributing in a way!
-Even if the modern science cannot see or prove it to day!...

With this idea of it all, I must say I haven't even considered that harvesting Trichomes only, could be even half the truth!?... 
My only real experience is from smoking hashish at a daily bases for at least 25 years, but I have never considered it to be medicine!...  

Yes I have understood that Rick Simpson's main interest was harvesting THC! But to me, crushing and boiling all the plant material for hours seemed to be a way of getting more out of the plant! (even if not understood or spoken of) -Yes of course a preconceived opinion...

@Fadedawg Sorry if I should have known about this, but when you say "We've supplied Holy Anointing Oil and Holy Shit to multiple patient......", I get the impression that you have studied the medical side of cannabis quite a bit!? 
I would love if you can point me in the direction of where to get some more true understanding in this field!! 

Yes of course I see the "recreational" side of things is far more advanced! But so it is with just about anything in this world!.. 
-I might be uncomfortable to even start my motorcycle, because of that missing "nice thing", that someone else will never even see the difference if it's there or not... This doesn't necessary say anything about the NEED for the "thing"... 

Absolutely no disrespect intended! I just try to explain my thinking. 

Do you also consider NOT decarbing parts of a decoction to be overkill? (e.g. like mentioned above both pressing and oil-extracting) I am reading terpenes might have grate value, but will get lost over certain temperature!... 
My plan to get going as soon as possible, was to use the Hemp-CBD-oil we have bought close to legal, and spice it up with THC. -But if it is that easy to gain the potent ingredients myself without buying CBD-oil, of course that is much more interesting! 
(Problem is to get started before having any plants of my own, as the cannabis prices here are totally off the roof!) 

I am just thinking, with intent of using this fascinating plant by means of give relieve and even the possibility to cure people in pain, I do not want to pull half the possible remedy out the drain!! 
I am reading there might be something like 500? chemicals and close to 150? different cannabinoids!!!....  
I beleive this might not be only the Trichomes!?... But again, hwo knows of the value?.......

I am sorry you lost those lab reports! 
Looking at the one I added to the first post here, it doesn't seem one should ignore the value of different methods though.... 
I understand you have given me some cleaner alternatives, but I still find it fascinating!
I would love some comments to it!  

Thanks!
/Orre


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## kgp (Jan 30, 2020)

I live on the wild side. Nothing like good ole BHO. Clear amber that shatters is my all time favorite. Vape, tincture, mix with butter for cooking, or a couple shards in a gel cap. Its great at everything.


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## JohnDee (Jan 30, 2020)

Orre,
I've been reading about extracts...and if you want to preserve flavor and still be edible, you might consider using vegetable glycerine. If you do a cold extraction (takes months)...you end up with an enhanced syrup (less sweet then sugar). I made a small batch but it wasn't as strong as I'd hoped. But the beauty of it is you just add some to sweeten your tea and oila...super tea.
Cheers,
James


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## OldMedUser (Jan 31, 2020)

From all the evidence it seems that extracting pot directly into edible oils is the most efficient method for medicinal value. BHO and other concentrates are aimed mainly for the 'stoner' crowd which is the vast majority of users. If everyone was honest it's likely 90% of people with medical cards anywhere got them under false pretenses so they could score cheaper pot legally. Not that I blame them but abuses using the medical pot systems here in Canada perpetuate the bad name cannabis has with non-users.

When you have Skype docs handing out outrageous grams per day medical permits for huge amounts of cash so pot pushers can legally grow huge crops they are going to sell illegally it makes it hard for guys like me. Between my wife's and my medical we could legally grow 92 plants if we registered with Hellth Canaduh but I don't register with anything I don't have too. If I ever get busted I'm hoping our med permits will save us from harsh penalties or even seizure of plants and gear. I don't sell openly and rarely have had more than a dozen plants going at a time. I'm getting into breeding CBD strains and fem seeds so may have 50+ plants going at once but most will be culled and few will be chosen to flower.

I'm looking at getting into making distillates too but that's down the road a bit. With a diploma in chemistry it's not a huge deal to figure out how to do it on the cheap. Us old age pensioners got to have mad skills to not have to pay retail and I'm chock full of those! 

Recent research is saying that pot destined for edible/medicinal value doesn't need to be decarbed and may be more effective if it's not. If that is true then a patient could take much higher doses of THC without getting so high which would be very f'n good. All the terpenes could be preserved too. The decarb for edibles is so you get higher off it and another 'stoner' thing. Nothing wrong with being a stoner and that was my mode for almost 50 years but I'm way swung over to the medpot side now tho got nothing against getting blazed now and then either.

I've been approved for a medical micro-dosing magic mushroom dispensary recently and the only reason I haven't placed an order is the cost. I used to pick buckets of 'shrooms in the Fraser Valley 40 years ago and wish I still lived out there. Not just for the 'shrooms but the salmon/steelhead fishing, climate, people, opportunities, life etc etc etc! I hate northern Alberta so f'n much!

Just got an extra grand for back payments on my pension so gonna grab me some 'shrooms! If it actually helps in a serious way long term then I'll spend some more to start growing my own. Like pot I can't afford not too.


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## orre (Jan 31, 2020)

@kgp Thanks for commenting! And I can surely understand the fascination for purified products! 

@JohnDee Hi! And thank you for the input about glycerine! Making a quick search one of the first thinks that came up is just as you say, a sweet and palatable tincture! The other thing I see is it might lack in phytocannabinoids, and that is kind of my main concern to avoid!...
Also cold extraction for months doesn't seem too appealing...  But I guess you can also heat glycerine?
I have to look into that medium too! Thank you!

@OldMedUser Thank you for sharing experiences! 
It is surely interesting what you say about THCA! I have also been seeing there might be benefits of THCA and not decarbing. And probably CBDA?.. Also in the sense of not frightening my old lady that have hardly ever been really stoned, and doesn't even drink... 
Of course it should makes sense to anyone there might be benefits NOT altering a medical plants natural structure! I surely also have no doubt THC and CBD is of great importance! -and maybe other possible molecule structure changes during decarb I do not know about.. But one would not need to exclude the other!!...

This is why I had the idea of e.g. pressing rosin oil of the bud and decarb that, and use the residues in a few hours ~95°C oil bath! -Or QWISO or any other soution for that matter!...
I am now also reading alcohol solution is gaining more phytocannabinoids, but I do not know if that is just in comparision with glycerine?

As said, I find the article in my first post interesting! Specially in the means of using oil as medium! So I would appreciate if someone with knowledge would comment it! 

I would surely also want a comment to @Fadedawg claim that its all in the Trichomes!?..

Thanks!
/Orre


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## Fadedawg (Jan 31, 2020)

orre said:


> @Fadedawg Thank you very much bothering to educate a noob on the other side of the planet!
> I am really grateful and humble that you want to share your knowledge! If it doesn't seem that way I have to blame language...
> 
> So you are saying the simple answer to all my questions is that ALL components of matter is all in the Trichomes! and do not bother look further??...
> ...


I believe the entourage effect to be in play, but looking at what is extracted from the rest of the plant, I don't see the relatively inert ~C-30 plant waxes doing more than diluting the concentrate. C-40 B-Carotene is a good thing for eyesight, C-55 Chlorophyll is salubrious in reasonable doses, and not sure what part Pheophytin plays (deprotonated chlorophyll). I've not read anything that suggests they have proven effective against cancer. 

The question is are they responsible for the medicinal effects of cannabis essential oils, or are they just another diluent in this application. The medicinal effects of cannabis has been attributed to its phytocannabinoids on our bodies endocannabinoids systems. Not just THC, but the mix of cannabinoids. There is ample evidence that they can be effective against cancer, even when they are overheated and many of the terpenes driven off, such as with the Rick Simpson rice cooker purge. 

The essential oils also contain the C-10/15 mono and sesquiterpenes, all of which are transdermal aromatic hydrocarbons, and have medicinal effects. One might expect their medicinal effects would vary considerably, as does the rations of the different mono and sesquiterpenes in the different strains.

Dr Robert Melamede dedicated his research to the effects of phytocannabinoids on our endocannabinoid systems, and who I would recommend that you contact for the latest and greatest research results. 









Dr Robert Melamede PhD on the Endocannabinoid System


Hi, I'm Dr Robert Melamede PhD. I'm a professor at the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs. I was the former chairman of the biology department there. And currently in addition to my role as professor I am also the CEO and president of Cannabis Science a publicly traded company on the...




medicalmarijuana411.com


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## OldMedUser (Jan 31, 2020)

Fadedawg said:


> I believe the entourage effect to be in play, but looking at what is extracted from the rest of the plant, I don't see the relatively inert ~C-30 plant waxes doing more than diluting the concentrate. C-40 B-Carotene is a good thing for eyesight, C-55 Chlorophyll is salubrious in reasonable doses, and not sure what part Pheophytin plays (deprotonated chlorophyll). I've not read anything that suggests they have proven effective against cancer.
> 
> The question is are they responsible for the medicinal effects of cannabis essential oils, or are they just another diluent in this application. The medicinal effects of cannabis has been attributed to its phytocannabinoids on our bodies endocannabinoids systems. Not just THC, but the mix of cannabinoids. There is ample evidence that they can be effective against cancer, even when they are overheated and many of the terpenes driven off, such as with the Rick Simpson rice cooker purge.
> 
> ...


There are so many unknown unknowns at his stage of cannabis research thanks to almost a century of hard core prohibition tho much as been done in countries like Israel where they have been very active for the last couple of decades compared to US/Canada, Even to this date Hellth CanaDuh still states that cannabis has no known medicinal effect but are still in charge of regulating our medicinal program. How Duh is that?

As an elder boomer with over 50 years of pot use under my belt I can only decry the lack of understanding that has resulted from a century of propaganda about the 'Devil's Weed!' Even my 92 yo mother is amazed it took so long for sanity to start to appear.

The major obstacle to pot research has always been Big Pharma and other corporate interests. They are the main reason that the US federal gov't keeps cannabis, including hemp, on Schedule 1 with heroin, and other 'non-medical' drugs with a high propensity for addiction. 

It's laughable but our reality. Even tho BC. Canada and Washington, US share borders and both have legal recreational pot laws you can't take pot across the border because border laws are federal and US federal law says all pot is illegal! I flew out to BC from Alberta with 6oz of pot last November with no worries but if our flight had got diverted to a US airport I could have been seriously impacted! It's happened to many flights the last few years.

If you are a person of colour the chances of you being a target of security are 10X that of a seriously white guy like me. I'm a long-haired red head old fart who looks like a pot user but if you look like a brown lawyer you're the guy they'll pull over for a better look. Sorry about that but I'm not going to jump up and down and say take me instead. I probably have more to hide.

I used to cross the border to go down to Lynden, WA twice a week when I lived 3 miles from the Aldergrove crossing back in the day. Smuggled two cartons of Camel 100s every 2 weeks for almost 20 years. Got pulled over 3 times and never busted. Hauled a few pounds of pot back in the day but it was even easier. Since 9/11 and America's submission to authoritarian rule I gave up travelling to the US an probably never will again. Damned if I will get a passport to visit a country I freely visited all my life. Getting pissed at the Breaker's in Pt. Roberts then cruising home on my Bonney was great then getting pissed at the Maple Leaf Tavern in Sumas, WA then cruising home drunk off my ass to Aldergrove, BC at 4 am was cool too.

The US and it's past/current drug war policies are still the biggest barriers to serious evaluation of cannabis as medication. How many brown/black people are doing serious time for non-violent pot/drug possession crimes in pay-for-profit prisons compared to us white boys. Fug all really and it isn't right at all. No one of any colour should do jail time for passing a joint or selling a bag of bud. The major harm from pot is the penalties of using it not from the pot itself.

Federally us Canadians are a lot cooler about pot but as we kiss US ass to survive we gotta support the corporate schism. When will any of us live under an honest government eh?


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## JohnDee (Jan 31, 2020)

orre said:


> Also cold extraction for months doesn't seem too appealing...  But I guess you can also heat glycerine?


Yes, but you then lose terpines. I did a hot extraction, but my experience was that it lacked potency for me (high tolerance). For cold extraction...it's suggested to rotate jars daily or build a little automated device to do it. Just to move the glycerine around a bit.

I used to fill tequila bottles with bud and tequila and stick them under the sink for a year. Green Tequila we called it...good stuff. But that was 25 years ago. Methods have improved. lol
JD


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## orre (Feb 2, 2020)

@Fadedawg Ok thank you for not completely throwing the idea of substances other then Trichomes might play a rolle, out the window!

As it kind of seems to be the case with just about EVERYTHING in this world, I would surely be amazed if it wouldn't apply to cannabis!!!...
I must say I am stunned by the fact I cannot find or get hardly any real feedback for this to me NO.1 question!?... 

But thank you for the -411-link @Fadedawg !
I found two very nice YouTube clip there from a Dr. Jake Felice.
At the latter he addresses different aspects of Terpenes and different strains. I do not know anything about strains but taste, so that surely sound worth looking into!
Also what I understand that implies cold extractions methods really are of interest! -Thanks @JohnDee !









@OldMedUser Cannabis has been grown and used for probably the whole of mankind. The prohibition situation is probably all to blame on those bloody oil and paper farts from late 1800/early 1900. DuPont, Mellon, Hearst, Anslinger.... 
Did you know Rudolf Diesel built his engine for vegetable oil, and Henry Ford for bio-ethanol? -And intended his whole car industry to rely on "farmers work", and as late as in the 1940's built a "the world's first carbon-negative car" made of hemp-plastic ten times as strong as steel!...
Or that we could actually replace more or less ALL plastic from our daily life use with hemp!...
Or replace enormous amounts of the cotton industry, that is THE biggest consumer of pesticide, and responsible for enormous amount of poison ruining the drinking waters at places where it is most vulnerable! -When Hemp doesn't even need any insecticides!...
Or that paper industry is responsible for about 50% of all forest harvest! and that in 4 month, 1 hectare Hemp could produce as much pulp as it takes 4 hectare tree 20 YEARS to produce!!...
Or that you can build more or less your whole house from poison-free hemp products!...

Or that all those "Marijuana Devils Weed" propaganda was deliberately put out with that racism rhetoric by that bloody newspaper fucker Herst, his buddy Mellon, and his nephew Anslinger, at a time no one now what Marijuana was, or even had any idea it had something to do with Hemp!!
It doesn't even have ANYTHING to do about drugs!!! -Hell, it was even laid out to the congress as a tax reform!!... -It is ALL about the money!!!... 

Today on the other hand, it is obviously the pharmaceutics companies that are given all the control!
At least here in Scandinavia the governments has now classified ALL hemp as medical!?... What The F_ck??!!???....
It is so f_cking outrageous I can't believe how anyone could still talk about those governments as "democratic"......
I f_cking puke about it!!! 

Ps. About the Heroin comparison and why countries all around the would have embraced this fairytale, I seems to me it is all about UN and the Narcotics Convention that all member states signed back in the 1960's...
As probably said, here in Norway it is still not even legal to grow industrial hemp!...


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## JohnDee (Feb 2, 2020)

orre said:


> I f_cking puke about it!!!


Dude...relax your mind. The absurdities of our governments is legedary.

In Left Hand of Darkness (Le Guin) the Gethonian leaders were all insane (a requirement of the job) and assassination was the only way to get out of office. Ursula was having a little fun mocking politics...but in truth that system is probably better then our current one. 
JD


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## OldMedUser (Feb 2, 2020)

orre said:


> @Fadedawg Ok thank you for not completely throwing the idea of substances other then Trichomes might play a rolle, out the window!
> 
> As it kind of seems to be the case with just about EVERYTHING in this world, I would surely be amazed if it wouldn't apply to cannabis!!!...
> I must say I am stunned by the fact I cannot find or get hardly any real feedback for this to me NO.1 question!?...
> ...


You seem to have discovered the facts that I have known and studied since my teens. Amazing isn't it. I was at the first Easter Be-In in Vancouver when I was 16 and that was basically a pot protest with live music in beautiful Stanley Park.

With all the awareness now about how plastics are not the wonder material we thought it was hemp should soon begin replacing a lot of it. The new car smell will change again for the better I hope. Plastics off-gassing is not the smell I want.

Even tho pot has always been prohibited here, (still is), North America has had a lot more openness about pot than the rest of the world for most of my life. I smoked my first joint when I was 14 and took acid a few days later. 

Now that you are more aware you need to spread the word so you can help free the plant in your country too. We still have a long way to go but end is nigh!


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## orre (Feb 2, 2020)

@OldMedUser Ha ha ha.... I am glad you're an optimist!  Sorry to say I don't have more influence then someone else... 
I do not know why you assume I haven't known this all my life too? -As well as hundreds of thousands others, having a blast smoking and dancing, diggin' groovy music and eating tiny little pieces of papers with drips on them in parks all over the world!!...

But as I started out to tell, it is not until now its (here in Scandinavia) STARTING to be possible to even mention cannabis without someone biting your head of! And to be able to do that with both my kids and my parents, and piece by piece with others in my life, and hopefully soon even with neighbours and more peripheral accountancies, THAT I find extremely satisfying!!
Not to mention how satisfying it would be to maybe even be able to help those that are ill!!

The in my eyes REALLY BIG benefits of Cannabis has nothing to do neither with pot or medicine. -It's as mentioned above the industrial hemp!!
Now THAT is BIG BUSINESS! An I am sorry to say, that discussion seems to once again being buried. -This time by the pharmaceutical industry!... 
Why I wrote it, is because I am quite sure that even at this kind of fora, people younger then me and you Mr. User do not know anything about the real story! And at this time MOST people are younger then us... 
Who, through all your life, has believed that talk to be anything but another pot-head conspiracy theory!?... 

But I agree the winds are changing! and to me right now, it means I can talk to people, and I can write on this forum without pseudonym! and that IS a big win! 
AND! If I can help my loved ones and close friends with medical issues I would be absolutely delighted!! 

To get back to the medical question.
Extracting with oil of any kind (olive, coco, glycerine). In the article I posted they heated the oil to just under 100°C in waterbath I think, and presented very much higher terpene numbers then with the other methods. -I have thought that it is because terpenes doesn't start escaping before something like 115°-120°C? Isn't that correct? 

Also, I once again try to get a clear answer, are all this terpenes and cannabinoids present in the Trichomes??
(And would also be extracted by for example a QWISO?)

/Orre


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## JohnDee (Feb 2, 2020)

orre said:


> (And would also be extracted by for example a QWISO?)


Hi Orre,
I'm just a beginner at extractions, but I"ll tell you what I know. I've been doing QWET with about 4 pounds so far. You need to dry and decarb first ...all terps are gone.

No experience with making smokeables.
JD


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## Fadedawg (Feb 3, 2020)

Oil and glycerin extractions hold on to the most terpenes, because they aren't later reduced by evaporating away the solvent, but you are limited in potency for that same reason.

A technique used around here to improve the terpene content, is freeze drying and pulling the terpenes off first under vacuum, extracting the essential oils, and after purging, adding the terpenes back.

If you extract with LPG at -30C or lower, you won't pick up as many fats and lipids, so winterizing isn't required, and more terpenes are retained.

As for medicinal effects, all the terpenes have them and together they provide an entourage effect, based on the mix. As the mix changes, so does the medicinal effect. 

I remain tongue in cheek as to how much that entourage effects all applications, based on the number of seriously ill and end of life patients we furnished winterized LPG extract or QWET pro bono, who were cured or went into remission. 

As for terpenes escaping, the monoterpenes are aromatics, with high vapor pressure, and do so at room temperature, which is why they stink up a room even double bagged. Heat just speeds it up.


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## orre (Feb 4, 2020)

Thank you guys for the inputs! I am starting to somewhat see a thread in this...

@Fadedawg I can appreciate your fishing and patient experiences, and I can see why you tell me not to complicate things...
I will certainly also keep that Holy Shit recipe in mind!

But then again, I do not believe I have ever asked about cancer medicine! but about extraction ways to not disturb the possible very important entourage effects from cannabis as a whole plant. -I understand that is a controversial theme, but that is the story about Cannabis in a nutshell isn't it!... 

Thank you for pointing me to more studies!
Reading more about its medical effects, it stands quite clear that terpene and terpenoid variations is NOT to be ignored!
The medical studies about it is for sure fascinating, and what I understand those substances come in to play already in very low doses! (not only found in Cannabis btw!)
Reading that those smelly and tasty terpenes is not only for having a pleasant smoke, but also playing a role for medical purpose, does make it quite clear why RSO looses interest from any feinescmeckers, either medical or not. -That raw decoct was never intended to be other then a possibly life-saving heavy THC-dosage stuff, and even for that there are obviously much better ways of doing it!..

@JohnDee Yes I understand about decarbing away the terps, but I am still not sure what temperature you need for to complete the decarbing process? -I've read people doing it in just above 100°C but for longer time like an hour or so? -If so, why isn't it considered decarbed after simmering in oil for several hours??...

Also I have yet to understand what temperatures are setting off the terpenes/terpenoides?
I am thinking for an oil extraction it would help even if you only have let say 50°C oil compared to cold?

I would also like to know about the value of keeping THCA/CBDA as @OldMedUser mentioned, and not decarb at all!?
As said, thinking it might be of value to combine medical oil from different extraction methods.
Freeze drying and vacuum as @Fadedawg mention sounds a bit too complicated and expensive for a small personal setup. But what about e.g. freezer quick-wash with the alcohol evaporating without heating?

I also want to ask as I see both @Fadedawg and @JohnDee refer to QWET.
Do I understand it correct that the only difference between Ethanol wash and IPA wash is that Ethanol is safer digesting?
(Too bad I have been moonshining for a living for decades, but now only have a couple of litres left... ha ha ha...) 

/Orre  

Ps.)
Just about to post this I came to look at the decarbing table I have seen before here and there, but that I now understand are quite important both holding exact temperatures and times. And what I understand would work fine also with an oil extraction @ only 80°C!?... 
Could someone please elaborate!?

-Another thing I just found is I believe from an old @OldMedUser post, where he say: 


> "Contrary to what some people think you can't do the oil one way and use it for everything; "


Followed by a colourful picture of a wheel with different illnesses and what cannabinoids that would address them best! 
-This is surely complicating things way beyond what I have yet heard here!?
Is it old news? Please tell me more!!!


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## JohnDee (Feb 4, 2020)

orre said:


> @JohnDee Yes I understand about decarbing away the terps, but I am still not sure what temperature you need for to complete the decarbing process? -I've read people doing it in just above 100°C but for longer time like an hour or so? -If so, why isn't it considered decarbed after simmering in oil for several hours??...


Everyone is so adamant about decarbing that I don't like to discuss it. But yes...I made cannabudder and made killer cookies with no decarb for 3 decades before someone here told me I was doing it wrong. Yes, a good simmer and a bake in the oven is enough.

I do decarb before doing a qwet batch because I use it orally...not dabs. And I too believe the entourage effect is real. Throwing CBD into the mix really makes a difference.
JD


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## orre (Feb 4, 2020)

@JohnDee Well... I can appreciate what you mean... -Ill tell you a little story:
As I mentioned I have been making quite a lot of alcohol for many years. A friend of mine taught me his secrets and got me going. He was a really great self-made "scientist" in the matter and did fine-tune and simplify the process to the limit! -The outcome was better, stronger, faster, cleaner and more volume per input then what IS scientifically actual possible! (It should be a quite simple mathematics task) It went threw several lab tests, and was concluded "not possible" to achieve in the simple matter we did. Even once a whole chemistry class from the local university manage to talk their way to the cooking cellar at the time, by deeply and honestly promise to never ever reveal the location, to study and get stunned by how he got that extra couple of precents beyond the possible limit!... Quite funny actually! 
-For us, those extra percent was free raw material, and besides the quality and that we made a batch twice as fast as anyone else, had a clear business advantage... 

Anyway. The Entourage effect is a fact! not a belief??  

And I don't know how scientific this graph is, but it's sure easy to read!... Except I don't know if it means those lower temperatures would just keep marginally rising yield over hours?. Also I do not understand why use such odd numbers?
I would like to see this graph compared with tepene/terpenoid loss!


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## Freedom seed (Feb 6, 2020)

I made several batches with coconut oil and fresh material right off the plant to try thca and cbda. It seemed to work well for some of my problems but not all of them. It did remove inflammation. There was hardly a buzz to it at all which means a person with a low tolerance could eat more of it. The scent and flavours were fantastic it definitely preserved some terpenes. 

We went right back to the decarbed coco extract for regular use.

Orre have you ever considered eating hash? I regularly eat my dry sift decarbed and not. And iso RSO but with a longer soak so it turns green.

I like the whole plant extracts, and it saves work (no trimming)


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## orre (Feb 6, 2020)

@Freedom seed I am happy to hear about THCa/CBDa, and I also understand it might be a disappointment somehow. I am actually thinking of doing both decarbed oil and not, and experiment about it a bit. Maybe even combine?... 

I can stuff my self with what ever! ha ha ha... But it is many years ago I kind of lay of the hashish... I do very well remember the taste though, and I do not think I can get my lady to eat that... 
It should also be a matter of decarbing though, and of course you can do tinctures from hash. But at this time, being "off the wagon" for nearly two decades, and wanting to introduce it to others that might not be familiar with cannabis at all, i kind of want to be "closer to the plant"!... If it makes sense?...
I do also feel like that is the right approach to solely medical use...

I vote for using the whole plant! 

I just now have found there are highly concentrated full spectrum crumble made from hemp to by. Also with added terpenes if wanted.
At the same time I have found the "tCheck" apparatus measuring total amount of cannabinoids in both plant material, oil and alcohol.
So I am thinking I might dilute both full spectrum CBD oil, and THC oil separately, and then combine them in different volumes...

*Please chime in anyone that votes against the **tCheck**!!*
Specially if you have any alternatives to DIY potency check!

As mentioned I want to be sure I can start low so not to scare people.
I sure remember how bloody hard edibles can hit! -And long!... 

/Orre


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## JohnDee (Feb 7, 2020)

orre said:


> So I am thinking I might dilute both full spectrum CBD oil, and THC oil separately, and then combine them in different volumes...


I did that last winter with cannabudder I made from Sebring's Revenge (cbd) plus some made with a sativa I had grown. Gave me a lovely joint loosening sativa high. I miss those snickerdoodles...need to bake some more.
JD


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## Freedom seed (Feb 7, 2020)

Orre, I have been mixing Jack Herer with a cbd plant (was a cbd only pheno of a 1:1 hybrid) and the results are fantastic. Better than the Jack alone. It’s the go to around here.

Keep in mind that a lot of landrace has cbd in the gene pool and it gets bred out to make the high thc strains. Hash often has cbd because they are mixing many plants together.

For testing there is a great thread here somewhere explaining diy thin line chromatography, and also look into the Beams test for cbd. The Beams is real easy to set up for.


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## orre (Feb 7, 2020)

@Freedom seed @JohnDee Thank you for the input. It certainly looks like I should continue in those thoughts! 
I have now ordered two different hemp concentrates. One of them with 38% CBC! and with several terp's added. Exited to try it out! 
Also ordered a small amount of some Indica dominant landrace. Bloody expensive... Looking forward to see what I can get out from it! 
It is a while before I can harvest anything of my own. (And as said, we are not even allowed to grow hemp up here...)  

Yes I have looked into that "thin line chromatography", and I read it is a quite reliable and consistent method. But it looks so bloody cumbersome... Both the process and reading those fade dots.... 

The Beams test sounds similar to another one I have seen with sodium hydroxide and active charcoal. Seems easy enough!  
Does not tell about THC though...

If understand correct, the "tCheck" only see the TOTAL of cannabinoids, but for what I am planning that might also be all I need. It also seems bloody simple to use!! It has an accuracy spec. of +/- 10% (+/- 15% for decarbed material) So it is not VERY exact though. And I would have to stay out of hemp oil as carrier. (I was planning to use MCT anyway...)
Also for it to work I would need to keep high CBD vs high THC infested solutions separated for testing, and then mixing by calculation. -This is partly also why I found it highly interesting to buy hemp concentrates with a lab-report to calculate from!
The big "variable" would be illegal growing (or buying) THC strains. Here even a 10-15% margin would be extremely useful! compared to trying to "feel" it!!...  
"tCheck" is not very cheap, but neither is those disposable chromatography tests I have seen! -And "tCheck" should not wear out if you take care of it!

Please tell me if you think I am totally astray!

It is really strange no low cost competition for DIY potency tests is to be found! Ultraviolet spectrometry sounds easy enough? I've tried to search China sites too with no luck?... I guess it is because the ease of sending to a test lab where it is legal...
For the three times more expensive "MyDx" I read in various reviews people reporting it as a total scam!... 

/Orre


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## Freedom seed (Feb 8, 2020)

Orre, here is a review of a study where they talk about the differences between isolates and whole plant extracts. 









Single Compound vs. Whole Plant CBD


A groundbreaking study has documented the superior properties of whole plant CBD-rich cannabis extract as compared to single-molecule CBD. The article challenges that botanicals are less effective than single-molecule compounds.




www.projectcbd.org


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## JohnDee (Feb 10, 2020)

Hi Orre,
I remembered something I wanted to share with you. Tangwena...over on ICM describes a curing method developed in Malawi. It used fermentation and is most effective when done with the pure sativas they grow there. Tangwena is an expert at this curing method and he teaches people how to do it. Very nice guy.

It's referred to as cob curing because dry on outside/damp on inside buds are wrapped in corn husks and tied really tight. Then in 105 degrees for a day and lower for a week. Oila...a consolodated mass of weed that can be eaten (no decarb needed) and smokes really nicely and smooth. Preserves terpines for entourage effect. Just what you're looking for.
JD

PS This is my first cob...a little dry but smooth smoke.


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## orre (Feb 10, 2020)

Thanks @JohnDee! Thant sounds interesting! (says the guy without crop) 
I'll certainly keep it in mind when I get there!

And there's another fora I need to look into!...  Holy manoly there's really LOADS of information on the web!!
As always with the WeryWideWeb, not so easy to determine what is actually usable though... 

I have been reading at the 420mag. for a bit, and found this thread.
Bloody long thread arguing about metabolism basically... but essentially start off with a guy presenting his olive oil extraction at 105°C with fresh plants! And experiencing an even more potent medical extraction! -Also strong in "THC-effect means", as IS really interesting as it probably by percentage is the opposite! This is also all about entourage effect!...
At page 9 he has discovered pressure cooker as a way to even less terp escape and greater yield! More about it here, and a bit more elaborated here. (Not with pressure cooker though)

This might be old news for you guys. I appreciate both @Freedom seed, @JohnDee and others tell me about the same experiences.
Noticeable though, is that I ended up asking at this forum, because I got caught up with a thread here where someone that seemed very knowledgable totally disparaged the question about "wet" extraction......

As more I read and learn, as more evidential it gets that this IS the way of thinking of Cannabis as medicine!
By all means, I do not for a minute disbelieve Cannabis works its wonders in other mysterious ways too!

As always at these forum-threads, I did not find any lab tests or such though...
What I notice everywhere, even at "serious" forums and forum-threads, is that "the feel of it" goes as "evidence", which I find quite ludicrous...
Absolutely not when it comes to how someone experience the effect on his/her condition of course! -I mean in the sense of doing serious research!
What I did find though, was a reference to a cannabutter experiment from a "High Times magazine". (Damn all this magazines and forums are so overwhelming to me up here in the forbidden darkness!...) 
No methods directly applicable to this discussion. But THEY where lab-testing the results, and what is noticeable is that simmering the plant in water! and oil stands out as top cannabinoid yield! -This was also the assertion from the guy with the fresh plant extraction method.


(5 short YouTube clips here.)

This is all a few years old stuff, so you might be able to present better knowledge!..

Bloody sad it is not possible to just read "the facts of today" somewhere and be done with it!... 

As said I also came to read about metabolism, as is totally unknown territory for me. (This was mostly about trying to get medication directly into the bloodstream by e.g. using your gums vs. digesting) For this discussion the general opinion was also to use olive oil.
I had just before read about coconut oil and MTC, ant thought that should be the way to go, and by you guys I've been told about glycerine, and now also been reading about lecithin... So now I am quite confused and unsure what way to go?. 
Could you please give some guidance here!

-I have a wish to keep it as mild as possible! -My lady is ridiculously picky.. And so are a lot of others... (As said, no hash munchers I believe) 
I believe some olive oil is less in taste too.. Also has to consider temperature...
All help is appreciated!

I would also like to hear what you think about me shopping for concentrates to make medicine?
This is at a point where I haven't even planted any seeds yet, and buying mentioned hemp extracts and THC extracts (crumble and oil) appeared as a reasonable way to get all parts, not extremely expensive, and in a way that I can calculate quite exact proportions!...

Btw. about the "tCheck" device, I am experiencing contradictory statements from the producer, and I can't say I am very impressed with their "support"... 
I have to report back when/if I can get real answers.

Thanks!
/Orre


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## Freedom seed (Feb 10, 2020)

Orre I’ve got a story for you. When I first started seriously into edibles a couple years ago, I was visiting a friend who had a little camper trailer set up as a harvest shack and he was cooking down plants. He was using every vegetable oil he could get his hands on. Corn, canola, almond and more. But he did some extracts with just water! I laughed I thought surely this didn’t work. It made some ugly brown tea with a layer of oily film on the surface. He would add it to a brownie mix and it worked well. There was something different and beneficial in it that is not in the oil extracts too. Nobody does this lol but he did.

I read somewhere of a method that if you boil enough cannabis and water together, and collect the oil on top, that it would be some clean and strong concentrate.

The original recipe for the holy anointing oil was thought to have been made over water. I have often wondered if the huge weight of cannabis specified is the wet weight. Notice the written instructions do not specify dry cannabis.


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## orre (Feb 16, 2020)

@Freedom seed Well... I don't know if I want that water at all...  But I read somewhere that it is beneficial solving CBD in water due to bioavailability.
-This also seems to make a good reason to add extractions to your gums, or under tongue, when I read 1'st pass metabolism wont let more then ¾ of CBD to be absorbed through you tummy? (I have no confirmation of this assertion, so please chime in!)

Other then that it looks like people are using water to get their oil, or butter, less infused with unpalatable chlorophyll and plant residues. I'm not sure about this though... Other places i read this is a total mistake achieving the opposite! as water will ADD chlorophyll, salts and waxes to the oil, and actually preventing the oil to do a complete extraction!?...  Also at baking forum/recipes I find an interesting discovery about water-washing the oil/butter AFTER completion to get a cleaner and milder tasting concentrate! A couple of links HERE and HERE.

(I looked at that Holy Anointing Oil recipe, and you might be correct about fresh plant! it does fit with what the guy at the other fora told. (About 400g. fresh cannabis to 1l. oil) The idea of extracting directly from fresh material of course gives adding water a different meaning!..
Btw. they just changed carrying oil from olive to )

Also found a comprehensive article about enhancing metabolism and potency with LECITHIN.
In that matter this woman writes:


> "In the case above, the same sized dose, when treated, delivers nearly ten times the active ingredient to the users blood stream.
> 
> This is why it's so important NOT to just take cannabis concentrates straight and as they are! Recreational users learn quickly that in order not to waste their "buds", they have to make a heated canna butter... how you go about making that butter or oil, and the edible solvents you choose, makes a dramatic difference in the efficiency and effectiveness of the end product.
> 
> Understand that you will absolutely become medicated if you eat enough of a pure cannabis concentrate, however, your body will benefit just as much, if not more, from a mere fraction of your original dose size when your medicine has been prepared and administered properly using a bioavailable oil source. You get much more 'bang for your buck', when most of your potency isn't simply going 'in one and and out the other', through your tract, without absorption." - Kat Smiles "


I have no idea how scientific her approach is? But I still find it interesting!
Also saw another thing in her recipes I would like to have more opinions with:


> @ about 105°C. Heat less time for a more cerebral medicine (about 2 hours). Heat up to 2 more hours for a more sedative and pain relief effect, and up to 5 more hours for serious sedative and sleep effect!?


Anyone know or heard about effect changing with heating time before? -This is all about oil, so I believe no reduction is involved...

Another thing I cannot seem to find consistent answer to, is the idea of taking the oil from heating after an hour, and freezing it for at least 6 hours before thawing it and continue the heating?
Again, I have read people freeze (winterize) easier removal of wax, fat and plant material, but another purpose should be this:


> To understand why freezing is important, we need to visualize the plant cells within the cannabis. They are essentially globules of liquid containing cannabinoids that we want to extract. Freezing them forces that liquid to take on a crystalline structure, piercing the plant cell walls and releasing the goodies. This even further increases the bioavailability of our final oil


All this certainly makes the statements of extraction method doesn't matter as long as you get all the fish to appear quite outdated!!... 

About lab testing, I am getting a bit ambivalent...
If/as oil extractions are sensed as "potent" as a dilution with an obviously MUCH higher percentage of THC, then THC level is certainly not the only, and not even the correct, way of measuring potency!... 
As for the only lab report I HAVE seen in this matter, the oil produced a higher yield of THCA and terpenes. (I add this .pdf again here)
As for that test and THC (and CBD) it was made with a slightly lower temperature ~98°C instead of ~105-110°C. that according to the decarb-graph would yield twice the percentage of THC!..

Cannabinoid test equipment would surely be a helpful diluting similar batches produced in the same way though!

/Orre


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## orre (Feb 16, 2020)

So far I just made 3 tiny small tests... And I have no way of telling any "potency" except the highly subjective feeling… 

First took one half of 5g. landrace buds and:

1.) Just for fun, - pressed rosin at my motorcycle workshop with a couple of thick iron blocks heated in the oven. -Worked like a charm!
(Impressive to be able to "press water out of a stone"! as that was how I felt about this desert dry bud...)

Took the other half of that 5g. and:
2.) Decarbed in the oven, and then cold washed with IPA and just fan-blowed the alcohol away.

Took another 5g. and:
3.) Heated in oil for about 2½ hour at ~105-110°C.

Trying to clean it, I boiled the rosin filter bag with the plant material in just a few ml. of oil, strained it and added back the rosin to the oil. (The rosin press was for no other reason but testing to press for the first time in my life… Only relevant thing might be that this tiny piece of oil wasn't deracbed)
Also added the beautiful IPA washed oil when I couldn't see any more reduction from evaporation.
Got a total of 5ml. oil concentrate out of this 5g. landrace buds.

I put 5g. of the same landrace bud into 50ml. olive oil, and kept at 105-110°C for about 2 hours, plus probably another hour heating and cooling time. This came out very nice golden and very mild tasting! Straining first through a juice strain cloth (with a potato press) and then once again threw coffee filter, made a totally clear and beautiful oil! (I'd like to find a better cloth and skip that tedious coffee filter next time!)
Got only ~34ml oil as quite big percentage from this small amount stuck to the filter and equipment... 
I did rinse both equipment and the juice cloth with plant material several times in boiling water. This I haven’t looked at so far though...
But that $6 crock-pot I got really came in handy!!

For the IPA wash I am not totally convinced all alcohol was gone. A bit of finger licking that night too... but got really bad gastric acid.. 
-And got bloody stoned! -Also my lady got too stoned from only 5 drops!... Totally inexperienced though...

For the olive oil method, I must say that was a really clean and easy way of doing it! Except how to minimize wastage… (for this tiny amount of buds the percentage is painful…)
And that night I also got quite stoned with only 6-7 drops of this nice clean oil! Not as heavy as the other night, and gladly not getting as heart-pounding and paranoia as that either!.. This is nearly 10 times as diluted as the first test though! So even feeling anything at that small amount is quite impressive!!... 5 drops should be something like ~1/5 ml. and 0,025g. bud!!!???
Can you even believe that?

I'll try another 5 drops to night. For now, I am quite dizzy from the 1-2 drops I have used to day…

I am sure going to try more oil extractions!...
Also believe adding lecithin is beneficial!

Would really like to know if freezing the oil halfway as mentioned above really makes any difference? Anyone knows?

I still do not know if olive oil or MCT is the best choice. -Again, I am reading both sides as the absolute truth... 
Please tell me what you know!

(About getting stoned btw. both me and my'ol lady experience quite unpleasant heart-pounding! She is using heavy meds and was worried… I have experienced this several times when I thought I should have a nice smoking experience, and instead just felt unwell!?
Why is that? Cannot remember ever feeling like that when I was an active hash smoker? Paranoia yes, but not this physical uneasiness!?)

Thank you for any input to all my thoughts, as I basically feel I know less as more I learn... 

/Orre


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## orre (Feb 16, 2020)

Not like anyone showed any interest, but for the tCheck cannabinoid test machine, I have got some thorough email answers from their support I thought I'd share.
You'll find $25 discount codes all over the net, so this thing is at the moment to be bought for $255,-
I also add the instruction .pdf they sent me. (same instruction for THC and CBD)

*1.) Is tChec measuring the TOTAL amount of cannabinoids? *

The tCheck reads for the aggregate cannabinoid content and identifies the dominant compound in your sample.

Because most cannabinoid sources are overwhelmingly dominant in one cannabinoid type, with a minimal to insignificant amount of the others (less than 1%), the other cannabinoids will not be detected due to the strength of the dominant cannabinoid detected by the sensors and the reading will serve as an accurate measure of the dominant cannabinoid.

The test will work for the vast majority of samples. However, there will be some samples that can't be read, such as one-to-one CBD:THC hybrids. There are plans to release an update to support those types of materials in the future, however, we do not have a timeline for when that'll be released.

*Hemp oil and CBD in butter are not currently supported

*2.) I have seen screenshots from your videos showing specific "CBD" and "THC" on the app screen. Is this just a gimmick, and tCheck doesn't really know that it is THC, THCa, CBD, CBDa, CBG or CBN, it is just a matter of displaying according to what options are selected. E.g. "flower" and "decarb". Correct?*

As stated above, the dominant cannabinoid is identified, and there are separate tests for the testing of specific cannabinoid dominant material. Our flower test has a hemp and marijuana flower option, in which one will measure CBDa and the other tests THCa.

*3.) If I have a solution from hemp that i KNOW has low or zero THC, I can therefore assume it is CBD that is displaying.
In the same matter, If I have a solution from Marijuana that I KNOW involves THC, I can assume it displays mostly THC. Correct? *

Yes, that is correct. The flower test will say total cannabinoids, because the test is separated into two versions: one for THCa dominant flower and one for CBDa dominant flower.

*4.) The "expansion kit necessary for to measure plant material", is just a matter of adding correct weight to correct amount of ~99% Isopropanol. Correct? *

Yes, we recommend using around 100-250 mg of flower to 10 ml of alcohol. The amount of alcohol does not vary.

*5.) Since you specify that the tray is sensitive, I really hope I can get a spare?*

Yes, it is plastic. The device is paired with the tray to ensure accuracy, so while there is not a "spare" per se, if the tray is damaged a tray replacement and device recalibration is covered under the warranty.

If you are concerned about possibly damaging the tray, we have a user guide which provides instructions on properly caring for the tray here, as well as in the packaging for the device: https://medium.com/tcheck/tcheck-2-user-manual-c94fe50b2a47
Some scratches may develop, but the damage is only to one end of the tray that is not scanned by the LED lights, and thus would not affect the results or impede testing.

After cleaning and drying your tray, I recommend you store it in the tray slot of the device. Make sure the device is off. Keep out of direct sunlight and away from high heat.

*6.) Would an update involving e.g. hemp oil and/or possible specification of type of cannabinoids, be a matter of new hardware or software? *

Our engineers are working on new features, but any updates involving new types of compounds will likely be a matter of software update via the app. You can subscribe to our newsletter on our website homepage at the bottom where it prompts you to enter your email.

*7.) A thing I have read in different forums (not new though) is that you have to add some kind of subscription to be able to use it fully? 
Do you have any such subscriptions to software or whatever?*

No, there is no subscription to use the device. This was a former potential feature that was planned to be released, but after some new engineering developments we instead decided to not continue with a subscription model.

*8.) I am confused about the accuracy percentage.
At your first response you said:
Accuracy:
+/- 10% 
+/- 15% Decarbed material

Later you told me 5% and/or 1%?

And when I look at your website it says:*


> "When measuring oil infusions & alcohol tinctures made using isolates, tCheck is accurate to within +/- 1.5mg/ml. When measuring cannabis flower, hemp, or trim, tCheck is accurate to within +/- 3 percentage points."


I'm sorry, I can see how this can be confusing. +/- 10% and 1.5mg/ml is the same, as our range is 1-15mg/ml. Stronger infusions can be tested using a dilution method and multiplying by the dilution ratio.
In the previous email I sent, I had thought you were referring to our flower test, in which case the accuracy is 3-5%.
95% of samples will fall within the 3% accuracy and 10% accuracy specs for flower and oil/alcohol infusions, respectively.
If your oil infusion is not made using isolates or winterized concentrates, then you would want to follow our two step process (see attached PDF).

*9.) Weighing water vs oil or alcohol does give three different results! 
Why confuse weight, volume and percentage in the same sentence??*

Oil and alcohol results are listed in mg/ml, or weight by volume. The flower tests measures percentage by weight, and accounts for the volume and weight by having you enter the weight of the amount of flower being tested and ensuring all flower tests use the same amount and same type of reagent. Please see the attached pdf labelled "Flower Test" for details on how flower is testing.

*10.What is the warranty period? Are app. problems beyond warranties?
I read from a disappointed customer, that he/she never had managed to get any results within 15% accuracy, no matter type or method of solution, and no matter the instructions given.?*

Our entire warranty policy can be read here: https://tcheck.me/blog/post/tcheck-device-warranty-2/
We waive the re-calibration for the first time - no matter how long you've had it. You'll only need to pay for the tray and the shipping costs.

Any defective device is covered under warranty. Our agents will need to troubleshoot to determine the cause of the error. For example, a customer may be either connecting via the settings rather than through the app, in which case the device would not need replacement. Additionally, a device replacement would not resolve the issue if there is indeed an error with the app-only an app update with new code written for the app software would resolve that.

This is because the code used to create the app is what needs to be fixed, not the device itself. Once a bug has been identified, our developers would roll out a fix for the bug and customers would download the newest version from the app store onto their phones and other mobile devices. The person you are referring to was told this by a technical support agent and misunderstood it as app issues are not covered under warranty. We also still provided a warranty replacement to this customer.

Please let me know if you have any other questions or concerns.

Best wishes,
Lisa

tCheck Customer Support
[email protected]
www.tcheck.me


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## Freedom seed (Feb 16, 2020)

Orre it is good to hear you have the alchemist shop fired up.  

I do the freezing, 3 times with coconut oil. I prefer the virgin cold pressed variety to mct but like I said before any edible oil works. I get that nice golden colour and you can see it increase with each freezing. I leave the spoon in the “ceramic, not Teflon” mini crockpot and put the whole thing in the freezer. The spoon removes the heat faster.

Because I’m eating it I only strain through a sieve. I have a stainless soup sieve from an oriental grocery store. It is pour through, a real timesaver. Kief goes through as well, and I don’t mind eating a bit of kief or even green chunks. The oil will very likely increase in potency if you store it for two weeks before consuming. I know mine does.

I have noticed cbd plants produce a yellower oil.

Check for contraindications with pharma meds I believe blood thinners may be an issue. Myself personally I had a bit of an issue with tolerance and found it very useful to apply the oil on my skin. I started with about twice what I’d eat. It helped me tremendously, and my tolerance went way up to the point I could eat any amount of oil I needed. Everybody is different though. 

I have never tried the lecithin but I have read other claims of a 15% increase in potency which would be a little more believable. About the bioavailability I’ve got some hard hitting coconut oil, I believe that. The alcohol extracts do things that the coconut oil does not though. My current batch was made from Jack Herer fan leaves. I’m going to talk to a shiner I know next weekend about getting some alcohol so I can get away from the IPA. Even though it’s less toxic than methyl, I sometimes wonder if reaction byproducts carry into the finished product. It says on the IPA Wikipedia page that it reacts with metals such as potassium. Plants contain potassium. Anyone with knowledge on that please share.

That thc is not the way to measure potency is a pretty common sentiment. I find high thc strains and thc distillate to be strong, but kinda boring. Then I have a strain that is 6% thc, 8% cbd and everybody is surprised how good it hits them. It’s feels good and warm, like the fire that is sunshine, and has the most incredible strong tastes of spices and incense. It has been voted a keeper in this house.

When every plant is different, and every person is different...there is only one way to figure this out.


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## delacruz (Feb 16, 2020)

I use everclear. It comes in two proofs. I use the stronger 98%. I watched tslonige's video. A friend of mine uses that method with great success. Simple, with minimal effort and the benefit of reclaiming a large percentage of your alcohol for future use is a plus. Once you have the oil you can use it however you please. I have a more elaborate setup with a vacuum pump but it isn't necessary. If you wanted to make it really simple you could pour alcohol over your buds, strain it, and just let it evaporate. You wouldn't be reclaiming your alcohol and you would have to decarboxylate the final product but it would be simple.


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## Freedom seed (Feb 16, 2020)

delacruz said:


> I use everclear. It comes in two proofs. I use the stronger 98%. I watched tslonige's video. A friend of mine uses that method with great success. Simple, with minimal effort and the benefit of reclaiming a large percentage of your alcohol for future use is a plus. Once you have the oil you can use it however you please. I have a more elaborate setup with a vacuum pump but it isn't necessary. If you wanted to make it really simple you could pour alcohol over your buds, strain it, and just let it evaporate. You wouldn't be reclaiming your alcohol and you would have to decarboxylate the final product but it would be simple.


It’s $50/litre here. Plus you would have trust the government for how pure it really is.


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## orre (Feb 16, 2020)

@Freedom seed Thank you! Yes I am excited!  

Why do you choose coconut oil? Taste or function? 
Or because it stiffens perhaps?

As you refer to edibles I also assume you freeze in the matter of "cleaning the butter"? 
But I really wonder about freezing half way through heating process to get more out of the plant?

Thank you for input about storing! -And skin absorption!

-Totally forgot I am also a pharma med user... After a stent operation a few years ago I do indeed eat a preventive dosage of those bloody blood thinners and statins... I have to look into that...

I am trying to look away of Cannabis strains because of where I am... 
I could probably be self-contained by blending of a small "secret part" of my workshop for growing, but I would really enjoy being able to spread this stuff to others too!! -You know we are really in the dark ages up here! Sometimes feels like North Korea or Russia or something...  

So I need to try to keep it simple in the matter of not having all different plants to gain varieties from.
As said, I have even ordered some, and want to check out the outcome of doing it oil from factory made concentrates! Yes I feel I am travelling away from nature, but also gaining a way to be able to dictate the table of content! 
I haven't studied the theme, but I cannot see why it wouldn't be possible to mimic at least some effects with different cannabinoid content, and why not by adding terpenes!? 
This is what the vaping business is all about isn't it!?... 

I can get the kind of yield out of oil extraction as it seems, it may even be possible to buy marijuana on the illegal market! 
This of course is a highly variable market though! Not at least when it comes to strains! -We are probably lucky if we can even get a choice!... 
In that matter it would certainly be easier buying concentrates!... 

@delacruz Thank you for chiming in. Yes alcohol seems simple! Just tried with a tiny peace of bud the other day, and the outcome was really beautifully clean! -Specially before alcohol evaporated!  I have also been thinking of a household distiller, I guess that is what you are referring to. 
I am fascinated with the possibility to, as you say, do what you want with that highly concentrated outcome! 

I am also really fascinated by the oil potency though! Seems like THE way to go for yield! 

@Freedom seed I appreciate your thoughts on IPA! 
What do you mean alcohol extraction can do that oil can not? 

Pure 99% ethanol might not be easy to buy legally here, as all above 60% is under drug laws...  Illegal moonshine on the other hand, as I been doing myself for many years, but then we are talking probably max 90-95%. I still have a few litres of that though... 
I'll check what is needed to be allowed to buy "technical ethanol" for my firm. I do suspect this is all denatured though...

/Orre


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## Freedom seed (Feb 16, 2020)

@orre I chose coconut oil because I read somewhere that it has a higher saturation point for dissolving cannabinoids. I do just as you suggested with decarbed herb, no water, and I freeze the crockpot three times while I’m making it. The coconut stiffens right up and seems to draw the medicine out of the plant. I’ve tried a few different ways and this is what we like the most. The flavour is pretty good.

I have read before that coconut oil when absorbed through the gut is immediately moved to every cell in the body and burned as energy right away. Perhaps this accounts for the bioavailability. 

One can only make the food oil extracts so strong though, and when the goal is to take quantity then you get tired of eating so much oil. That’s what I mentioned the alcohol extract does things the food grade oils won’t. It’s strictly about quantity. For example fighting cancer. There is a great thread here from not to long ago with before and after photos of rso/bandaid on basal skin tumours, the fellow was curing them in 12 days. That is what I meant; that the alcohol extracts are a lot stronger. For certain ailments the extra strength and larger overall quantity helps.


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## orre (Feb 16, 2020)

Thank you @Freedom seed! Good points!


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## cannabineer (Feb 16, 2020)

Freedom seed said:


> @orre I chose coconut oil because I read somewhere that it has a higher saturation point for dissolving cannabinoids. I do just as you suggested with decarbed herb, no water, and I freeze the crockpot three times while I’m making it. The coconut stiffens right up and seems to draw the medicine out of the plant. I’ve tried a few different ways and this is what we like the most. The flavour is pretty good.
> 
> I have read before that coconut oil when absorbed through the gut is immediately moved to every cell in the body and burned as energy right away. Perhaps this accounts for the bioavailability.
> 
> One can only make the food oil extracts so strong though, and when the goal is to take quantity then you get tired of eating so much oil. That’s what I mentioned the alcohol extract does things the food grade oils won’t. It’s strictly about quantity. For example fighting cancer. There is a great thread here from not to long ago with before and after photos of rso/bandaid on basal skin tumours, the fellow was curing them in 12 days. That is what I meant; that the alcohol extracts are a lot stronger. For certain ailments the extra strength and larger overall quantity helps.


Oils and cannabinoids are miscible. No saturation point.
Coconut oil is easy to handle because of its high “melting” point. I like coconut oil.


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## Freedom seed (Feb 16, 2020)

cannabineer said:


> Oils and cannabinoids are miscible. No saturation point.
> Coconut oil is easy to handle because of its high “melting” point. I like coconut oil.


That makes sense, thank you. @cannabineer are you able to comment on what I asked above regarding isopropyl alcohol and whether or not there is a concern with reactions to metals such as potassium that would be contained in the plant tissue? It was something I read on the wiki page for isopropyl alcohol that led me to wonder this. Is there any reason besides the toxicity of residual solvents that ethyl may be safer than isopropyl?


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## cannabineer (Feb 16, 2020)

Freedom seed said:


> That makes sense, thank you. @cannabineer are you able to comment on what I asked above regarding isopropyl alcohol and whether or not there is a concern with reactions to metals such as potassium that would be contained in the plant tissue? It was something I read on the wiki page for isopropyl alcohol that led me to wonder this. Is there any reason besides the toxicity of residual solvents that ethyl may be safer than isopropyl?


Ethyl alcohol reacts with potassium metal. I’ve had some good times with elemental potassium. The element is so reactive that it does not occur in nature.
Potassium ion doesn’t react with ethyl alcohol or much if anything.


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## JohnDee (Feb 16, 2020)

cannabineer said:


> Ethyl alcohol reacts with potassium metal. I’ve had some good times with elemental potassium. The element is so reactive that it does not occur in nature.
> Potassium ion doesn’t react with ethyl alcohol or much if anything.



Hey cannabineer,
I have a vague memory that you triggered. School science demonstration and our teacher put a piece of highly reactive metal into a dish of water. It fizzed and rolled around on the surface until it all evaporated. Could that have been K metal?
JD


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## cannabineer (Feb 16, 2020)

JohnDee said:


> Hey cannabineer,
> I have a vague memory that you triggered. School science demonstration and our teacher put a piece of highly reactive metal into a dish of water. It fizzed and rolled around on the surface until it all evaporated. Could that have been K metal?
> JD


More likely Na metal. Oh I had fun with that stuff. A big-enough piece goes deceptivelyvquiet and Boom!


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## OldMedUser (Feb 16, 2020)

Freedom seed said:


> That makes sense, thank you. @cannabineer are you able to comment on what I asked above regarding isopropyl alcohol and whether or not there is a concern with reactions to metals such as potassium that would be contained in the plant tissue? It was something I read on the wiki page for isopropyl alcohol that led me to wonder this. Is there any reason besides the toxicity of residual solvents that ethyl may be safer than isopropyl?


ISO might react with potassium metal but not with K ions in plant tissue. Like sodium or lithium metals it reacts violently with water. I have some of both. A 1lb chunk of sodium sealed in a can with oil and about 1/4 pound of lithium in a glass jam jar under kerosene. Can make a big boom with that shit. lol

The trace amounts of solvents in home made oil are so small as to be negligible. I use ISO and naphtha and just stir the finished oil in a pie plate while heating over a pot of simmering water. If there was any naphtha left in there you could smell it easy as it stinks.


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## cannabineer (Feb 16, 2020)

OldMedUser said:


> ISO might react with potassium metal but not with K ions in plant tissue. Like sodium or lithium metals it reacts violently with water. I have some of both. A 1lb chunk of sodium sealed in a can with oil and about 1/4 pound of lithium in a glass jam jar under kerosene. Can make a big boom with that shit. lol
> 
> The trace amounts of solvents in home made oil are so small as to be negligible. I use ISO and naphtha and just stir the finished oil in a pie plate while heating over a pot of simmering water. If there was any naphtha left in there you could smell it easy as it stinks.
> 
> View attachment 4481322


Naphtha is one of those words. Your naphtha- can you tell me the boiling range?


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## Freedom seed (Feb 16, 2020)

Thanks guys. My wife asked me the other day if the isopropyl could react to anything in the herb and I wasn’t sure. We were fortunate enough to have elemental sodium and potassium in high school chemistry class. I remember the potassium was a lot more fun but very carefully distributed. This would all be a moot point if the price of ethyl wasn’t so controlled here.


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## orre (Feb 18, 2020)

Why do I never see hemp oil used for extraction?


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## Freedom seed (Feb 18, 2020)

orre said:


> Why do I never see hemp oil used for extraction?


You would think it would be an obvious choice using hemp seed oil. My guess is price. 

Hemp hurd makes a good hydroponic medium, also seems like an obvious choice but not very popular at the moment. Somebody in the states should look into that with all the piles of hemp they grew this year.


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## orre (Feb 18, 2020)

Yes it is pricey. Close to coco and MCT here, so that shouldn't be cardinal...
Taste is another thing though, but I like the taste of hemp! and my first thought about this when I first bought some CBD oil, was that hemp seed should be the OBVIOUS choice!... 

I also actually have found some texts talking about using hemp seed oil for the unknown spirit of entourage effect... 
But it seems to be a general perception that MCT and coconut is THE carrier of choice!

Its sooo bloody difficult trying to navigate between commercial interests and facts at our beloved interweb... 

Found this text:



> Coconut oil is pretty much the perfect carrier oil for CBD because of its saturated fat content. The way that cannabinoids work molecularly is that the higher the lipid content of the oil they are in, the better and more efficiently they can absorb. Conveniently, coconut oil contains up to 90% saturated fat, as opposed to olive oil and hemp seed oil which only contain around 14% and 11% fat content, respectively.
> 
> These lipids come in forms of either medium-chained or long-chained triglycerides and the body transports each type differently through biochemical transporters. Medium-chain triglycerides absorb and break down quickly whereas long-chained triglycerides require certain enzymes to help absorption and breakdown.
> 
> ...


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## Freedom seed (Feb 18, 2020)

At the same time it’s not like us northerly latitude types use a lot of coconut oil in our diets. At least not traditionally. A good bowl of soup could serve the same purpose regarding saturated fats.

Shelled, split hempseed is something I regularly include in my diet.


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## orre (Feb 18, 2020)

Yes nutrition is a study of its own... And I understand the "packet" of getting good health from cannabis includes some other type of living then what I (sorry to say so) have bothered to look into... But maybe me too learn some day... 
(Of course I understand people getting forced too learn this the hard way. I have been lucky so far!)

I am all the way getting the impression that "carrier oil" is of highest value for to be able to fully take advantage of the cannabis though. Regardless of how balanced (or not) your intake is otherwise!?..
But then again, If you can get it concentrated enough to only use drips on your gum, I guess that part isn't of value anyway.
At least this is how I have understood the whole availability discussion. -If you can get it right to your bloodstream this does not apply!?
But I also understand that some agents are easier to absorb through skin. -maybe threw gums too?...

Another thought.
First we are doing extractions and winterizing and what not to get rid of lipids, fat and waxes!
Then we are choosing a saturated fat oil as the "perfect carrier", adding our nice and clean product back to that!?... 
Yes I understand that cleaning process might be of interest for vape and smoke, but for edibles??...

Now I just ordered the tCheck btw! (That doesn't do hemp oil though)
Exiting!


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## orre (Feb 19, 2020)

I've just read that the decomposition of short and medium chain triglycerides (SCT/MCT) start already in the mouth, while long chain triglycerides (like olive oil) mainly are done in the small intestine.

Sounds like coco DO play a part even if you add to you gum?...

I do understand there are recommended amounts of different fatty acids intake. But as @Freedom seed pointed out. -in the small amounts we talk about here, are there other benefits with olive oil other then just being traditionally used?... 

/Orre


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## Freedom seed (Feb 22, 2020)

@orre, I did something tonight that reminded me of an earlier topic in this thread. 

After scraping the bottom of my oil jar and with the next one not quite ready yet I decided to eat some hash. I dumped some dry sift kief on a spoon and held it over the gas burner until it darkened (about a minute @ 180F, infrared thermometer). A quick twist in between the fingers and it rolled into a nice quality decarbed hash ball and down the hatch it went.

The strain I made it out of yields kief well, and has strong terpenes of the most beautiful incense and spices. I chewed it for a bit and it just tastes amazing.

I still don’t think I’d be eating commercial hash anytime soon. But definitely lots more of my own. Plus it has a nice kick that I was not expecting.

How is that for easy, cheap, clean, and whole? Also a method that has quite a history behind it as well.


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## gb123 (Feb 27, 2020)

full spectrum meds are what its about. Not for burning...
Washing herb with Medical grade i_sopropyl Alcohol 99_% gets the same amount of meds as Butane. Can be purged just as easy and safely as well. Wont see you blow yourself up either.
I dont use the shit for smoking.
Its only for meds ...........................................and IT WORKS..
Im proof of that 
Just to let everyone know..
I used RSO and made it with WHITE GAS........... YES I DID............................. and guess what??
..IT FUCKING WORKED! 
I stopped using white gas or PURE NAPHTHA..... which is hard to find....
ONLY because of this kind of discussion.
at the time There was no discussion about it...You just did it and found out for yourself.
If I had listened to my oncologists?,,,,,,, I'd be dead over 8 years ago. He didn't know either but THOUGHT HE DID and was very forward about surgery, chemo, radiation and death, with in a year
So hearing people yap about this shit when THEY HAVE NOT DONE this SPECIFICALLY for themselves?

is PURE UTTER BULLSHIT and should be kept to themselves


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## orre (Feb 29, 2020)

@gb123 I am glad to hear! 
@Freedom seed I have never even seen home-made hash or kief... Sounds nice! 

Got the tCheck now, and it works a charm!
Seems the recipe of 100g. dry weed per litre oil in a 2 hour ~105°C-110°C crock-pot, gives about a 1:1 THC ratio so to speak.
That is, a strain I measure to ~16% THC gives a ~16% THC ratio in the finished oil.

The oil yield should be about 85-90%, but with my small tests I only got about 70% loosing quite a lot in the filtering.
(Btw. Saw a tip for capturing the leftovers washing the gear with the same bottle of alcohol over and over) 
-Quite an amazing yield isn't it! 

The guy with the recipe said he does 1,5ml. a day? (about 40 drops) Me and my lady haven't got further then about half of that...
Sleeps like a child, a bit of hangover in the morning, and good results though!
I have quite less joint pain, but what is really gladly is that my lady, that have severe nerve damage after chemo, radiation, and breast removal and reconstructing, experience a maybe 80% loss of those pains and cramps! -And not least gaining sleep! 
-She did notice a major improvement already using CBD-oil with no THC btw.! 

The tCheck cannot give me other then the dominant compound content, and I am still waiting for ordered concentrates from hemp. Haven't got hold of pure CBD strains yet..
My idea is to be able to make an oil with a quite controlled content with lab tested concentrates, and/or with different strains.
Also thinking I might do 2-3 different types concerning different terpenes and cannabinoid ratios. With the help of the tCheck hopefully being able to do batches quite evenly! to help people in my surroundings! 

/Orre


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## gb123 (Feb 29, 2020)

orre said:


> @gb123 I am glad to hear!
> @Freedom seed I have never even seen home-made hash or kief... Sounds nice!
> 
> Got the tCheck now, and it works a charm!
> ...


the hang over? lasts only minutes, unlike Alchohal that lasts all day and half the next or any Pharma made shit


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## Eastcoast144 (Mar 9, 2020)

taint said:


> Second this one.........solventless solves the issue.
> Definitely improves quality as well when done correctly.
> Mechanically separated thca is a game changer regards medical usage ime.


I’m new at this and have a few questions about the last stage


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## Eastcoast144 (Mar 9, 2020)

Eastcoast144 said:


> I’m new at this and have a few questions about the last stage


Everything is in jars diamonds are formed and huge but broke m purge


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## taint (Mar 9, 2020)

I use low pressure and low heat to mechanically separate the thca out.
Are you pressing or blasting with butane?


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## Eastcoast144 (Mar 9, 2020)

I’m not sure what they used to be honest but there’s one big diamond at the bottom with the sauce on top


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## Eastcoast144 (Mar 9, 2020)

.


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## taint (Mar 10, 2020)

Appears to be butane related..........sauce would be the stuff I throw away.
Sauce is fats,waxes,lipids.........what ever thca you missed.........garbage.
Not added back for flavoring as stated,added back as weight for profit.
Not a product I would Fuck with as without proper vacuum purging it is poisonous.
I could be completely wrong about your product impossible to say without actually knowing.


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## Eastcoast144 (Mar 10, 2020)

I don’t think it’s a butane run


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## Eastcoast144 (Mar 10, 2020)

See what im reading online they saying purge the term sauce separate


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## taint (Mar 10, 2020)

Purge what homie?


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## orre (Mar 11, 2020)

Hi guys. 

I just had a quite interesting conversation with a hemp producer. Please give me your thoughts! 

First, when I asked for higher cannabinoid concentration hemp, to be able to make higher concentration oil, he refereed me to PRESSING the oil! Putting it back in the boiler, and doing it over and over again.
Well.. That was a nice approach for better yield, but I cannot see how this could gain cannabinoid percentage? 
Can anyone explain what he meant? -Here is a pic of his press he sent me:



Nice setup! Just throw in the hot oil with the weed! Probably just misunderstood each-other about percentage though?...
​Btw. I have been doing really fast straining using a "Buchner funnel" and vacuum. (as I have a motorcycle workshop I just used my compressor and brake-fluid changer for vacuum) ​Can really recommend that! But that press setup was also quite interesting! ​
But the interesting part. He asked me: 
WHY DO YOU WANT TO MAKE OIL? -WHY DON'T YOU JUST EAT THE CANNABIS AS IS??.. 

Just try! You'll be surprised he said! -As you are concerned about entourage, I'll promise you this is not a joke!!...
Grind it, put it in capsules, and THEN decarb the capsules. -You'll keep ALL terps inside the capsules! -Just keep some foil above so you don't burn them from the oven heating elements... 
The capsules stand the heat perfectly well, they just get a little dry on the outside, and all the terps will suck into the gelatine!...

What do you think?
I know you guys have told me you are eating your keif or hash, but the buds??...
What about all this talk about getting it right in your bloodstream? 
And metabolism throwing most of the CBD content out the drain?....

Any thoughts?

--

In the meantime, I have been doing MCT oil with Lecithin, and I am getting amazing results! 
Now I have diluted all down to 5% THC with the "Royal Domina Landrace" I have, and still only need a few drops of the stuff! 
Not to mention how little is needed for skin application to take effect!

My lady has got rid of nearly all her nerve damage pain and cramps from cancer treatment/operations I have mentioned before!
Myself can sure confirm much less joint pains! And for a few days now I have not been using my high bloodpressure pharma, and measured quite a drop in blood-pressure an hour or two after intake or skin application! (It does rice a bit at first)
My 30 yo. son with destroyed knees has been pain-free and sleeping as a child!
The paralysed traffic victim he work for, have had a pain-free spasm-free night for the first time in a year and are overwilmed!!
This is SO bloody interesting stuff!!! 

It is just a shame it is SO difficult to get any conclusive answers how to approach... 
As I said, more and more questions appear as more I am learning...

/Orre


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## Freedom seed (Mar 11, 2020)

I can explain what he meant about pressing the oil. When you make coco oil extract the left over weed will not separate from the oil in boiling water (at least I can’t get it to). If you just have weed and water the weed will sink eventually but the coco oil messes that up. So you use two bowls, or a potato ricer, etc to squeeze the remaining oil out of the weed. Yield goes up, not potency.

To make the potency go up he puts the oil back in the boiler, just as he said, but “with more cannabis”. Remember from earlier in the thread the cannabinoids are miscible in oils? You can make it as strong as you want, just use more cannabis.

I will report back on the caps, it would be neat to do kief like that it would decarb into hash inside the capsule. Probably what I will try.


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## orre (Mar 11, 2020)

Thanks @Freedom seed I am glad you bother to educate me! 


Yes it sounds really interesting with the capsules! -He was quite harsh in his word use about all b-s info that is spread... 
I wonder how all testimonials with diesel-boiling ugliness would have sounded if all that people had tried other ways?...

I immediately thought of you and the kief!  (Btw. he is also selling hemp trichomes!...) 
Really nice info about decarbing the capsules! I am glad to hear you also found that interesting!
But I can also see a text on their site talking about decarbing plant-material for 2-3 hours at ~110°C!?... That sounds totally crazy from what I have learned so far!? I do not know why CBD-hemp should be treated different from THC? -You know about this?..

He also have a "Santhica 70" 100% THC free! -Didn't know that was possible?... -Nearly only with CBGa/CBG. 
Otherwise it's mostly CBD dominant strains with some different terpene profiles.
Nice pure products all at affordable prices and all with lab-tests! 
I have to take a 700km. drive cross the border to get hold of this, but thinking of taking that ride tomorrow. -I am lacking CBD in my experiments.

I am getting more and more convinced that it might not be necessary to use such high THC concentration! 
As I said I have been diluting by half here several times now with surprisingly high (subjective) effect!
So getting a higher part of firstly CBD and CBG in the mix will be really interesting!

It surprises me to read how many that is actually smoking hemp!! -Didn't know about that either... 

Btw. I read about your "whole body lubricate" experience @Freedom seed! Ha ha ha... Had a good laugh there mate! 

/Orre


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## orre (Mar 11, 2020)

-Also please chime in about CBGa decarboxylation!


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## Freedom seed (Mar 11, 2020)

The decarboxylation follows a graph, less temp = more time. I have read it takes more time/temp to decarb cbd as compared to thc, which may be the reason.

I wish they would open up Canada to unrestricted hemp growing. If the guy has shelled, split seeds I highly recommend them. If you made an extract with 1:1 cbd hemp:good bud I bet you enjoy it. 

The skin was a major key to moving forward for me. After that I could eat any amount.


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## orre (Mar 11, 2020)

Yes I was also thinking 1:1 - CBD:THC. 
Probably adding CBG to the mix! 

For seed I assume you are talking about e.g. adding to your breakfast, salad and stuff?
I understand they are extremely rich in protein and polyunsaturated fatty acids.

-Did you know that feeding cattle with hemp, you do not need to add antibiotics for them to be able to digest. -Like with e.g. corn!... 

Yes I have listened to your recommendations of skin application! -Find it to be a very effective way to get it into your body! 
It has made me planning on doing products specially for skin application!  

But do you mean this single -whole-body-smearing-session was a turn-over experience? 

/Orre


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## Freedom seed (Mar 11, 2020)

It was a turning point for sure. I swear a few hours after (as I was coming down) I could feel my heart pounding in my gut and all my organs woke up and started talking to each other. I tasted bile for the first time in months. If the endocannabinoid system is our bodies communication system with our organs and the skin is our largest organ...

I’m certainly not recommending to just smear it on, be careful it can hit very fast and hard. It is possible to “green out.”

I eat the seeds by the handful or mixed with oats, soup, gravy. They taste great. Has a cleansing effect on the gut as well. If I could grow hemp without a license/inspectors I’d fill a field.


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## mauricem00 (Mar 11, 2020)

fragileassassin said:


> The easiest and safest ways to do it at home would to be use a high proof alcohol like everclear and make an ingestible extract like the RSO. If you use alcohol, eat it or take it as a pill dont smoke it.
> Or
> Using a heated press to make rosin would be your go to for a smokable extraction.
> Or
> ...


 I use quiso (green dragon) and it works well for me. in the past I have decarbed at 250 degrees for 27 minutes then placed the decarbed ground flower in gel caps and swallowed the gel cap. no solvents used and a 00 gel cap holds about 0.3 grams of ground flower. this gets around your solvent problem and is easy and fast


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## fragileassassin (Mar 11, 2020)

mauricem00 said:


> I use quiso (green dragon) and it works well for me. in the past I have decarbed at 250 degrees for 27 minutes then placed the decarbed ground flower in gel caps and swallowed the gel cap. no solvents used and a 00 gel cap holds about 0.3 grams of ground flower. this gets around your solvent problem and is easy and fast


Ingested marijuana doesnt really do anything for me. I recently reinforced this with some pretty potent edibles.


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## orre (Mar 12, 2020)

@Freedom seed -I like your inputs! 

@mauricem00 I don't know "green dragon", but I guess you mean Quick Wash with ISOpropyl-alcohol?
I have no doubt this is very effective! -Reading it yields nearly as good as Butan wash!
Did a small test myself with good luck. Didn't boil though, just let the ISO evaporate under a fan.
I recognize this and similar approaches with solvents as very effective! -I have read loads of testimonials about that!

But I have a good feeling about oil! I have definitely not experience enough to make any assertions! But so far it seems the infused oil somehow distributes very well, and seems to lower the "concentration need" so to speak...
I have NO idea if this is fact or fiction, or if it would apply to more severe illness?... But I definitely find it very exciting! 
-And now when I even savvy how to rise concentration! Wow! 

The idea of eating the plant "as is" is totally unknown territory for me though!
As I said it kind of throw some other stuff I have learned out the window though.. -As CBD assimilation?...

@fragileassassin Thank you for input!
I believe all medical cannabis experiences are also highly personal! So the more testimonials, the better it is! 


A thought about capsules with grinded weed and yield...
I read @mauricem00 isn't the only one putting 0.3g. in a capsule, and I guess we are talking about maybe 3 capsules a day? -If so, that is about 1g. a day.
With the ~16% THC "Roylal Domina" I have tried out now, I have made a close to 1:1 outcome with 10g. in 100ml. oil! (Meaning ~16% THC concentration in 100ml. oil) And I found I can more or less just divide it. E.g. 150ml. = ~10%, and 300ml. = ~5%.
Some loss with straining, and some margin of error to consider. And of course the personal reference. But still!!...
-I mean, we get lightly stoned with 5 DROPS of the 15% oil!!??...

Of course this is only THC measurements and a highly subjective feeling, but also the health experiences mentioned in #81 above, -THIS is the amounts I am talking about! -3-5 drops!!...
To use the 15% oil as reference, that equals about 200 drops per gram!!.....
Bloody interesting isn't it!

/Orre


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## mauricem00 (Mar 12, 2020)

orre said:


> @Freedom seed -I like your inputs!
> 
> @mauricem00 I don't know "green dragon", but I guess you mean Quick Wash with ISOpropyl-alcohol?
> I have no doubt this is very effective! -Reading it yields nearly as good as Butan wash!
> ...


green dragon is made from everclear which is not toxic.isopropyl alcohol is toxic and is usually evaporated off to make wax. use grain alcohol like everclear for edible tinctures. use iso when the alcohol is going to be evaporated off


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## orre (Apr 1, 2020)

Hi guys! 

After some more experimenting, I have to dismiss my statements about THC percentage in the oil. 
Turns out I have used the wrong settings with the tCheck device...  
Seems that old posts cannot be edited either. I apologize for the inconvenience!

*The recipe of extracting 100g. dry buds in 1l. of oil seem to result in about 15% of the original THC content of the plant. 
E.g. 100 gram Royal Domina I measured to 16% THC, will result in 1 litre oil with ca. 2.4% THC. 
(minus 10-15% loss of oil = a total of about 8.5-9 dl. oil) *

The mathematics in the calculations still applies of course.

Also. Trying to increase the percentage by using less oil just seem to work to a certain degree without loosing yield... 
Meaning I CAN fit about twice the amount of plant material as above (e.g. 100g. into 0.5l. oil), maybe even a bit more, but then it will most lightly reduce the yield, and it will NOT be twice the the THC percentage (e.g. 4.8%). Instead possibly something like 4-4.5%. Also the percentage loss of oil will be bigger..
On the other hand, if I do it the other way around, e.g. 100g. in 1.5l. of oil, the THC percentage yield might be a tiny bit higher. -When that is said, the 100g to 1l. recipe seems to be quite a "sweet spot"! 
(I haven't tested, but it should equal about 400g. fresh plant to 1l. oil)

I have also tried to increase the cannabinoid percentage by using the same oil with new plant material, and yes of course it works! 
But this is also dependent in a really good separation of plant material from the oil. 
I have managed to boil 3x50g. in 0.5l. (That is extracting 50g. in 0.5l. oil, straining it, putting in new 50g. straining it, and new 50g. and straining). 
For the 3:d round I had to add a dl. or so with new oil, because I lost so much in the process it wouldn't cover the cannabis... 
It would probably have been better if I had used a hydraulic press like the one i pictured in an earlier post. And it also might have been better If I had not used equal amount of cannabis for each boil. E.g. instead used 70g. first round, 50g. second, and 30g. for the 3'd round?... I'll try that next time. 
The cannabinoid percentage yield wasn't too bad though! -Nearly tripled it! But the total amount of resulting oil wasn't too good!.. (don't remember right now)

I do not know, but *is it possible that some oil does "evaporate" in the process?* 
This test with 3x50g. was with hemp that I wanted to gain CBD from, so I used really long time though! (That is about 8-10 hours for each round plus heating/chilling plus freezing in between)

With marijuana I have done smaller batches of e.g. 10g. to 1dl. @2 hours @ca.110°C plus another 2 hours heating/chilling plus freezing plus heating and straining. This has given me the best results both with THC percentage and total amount of finished oil (about 88ml out of 100) 
I have also tried to use longer time, but then THC percentage went down a bit. I do not know if there is some oxidation involved in overdoing? 
(In that matter I have understood that the old decarb-table everyone knows about is a myth when it comes to "loosing THC to CBN when overdoing". -That kind of chemical process just does not occur that fast, if you don't decarb on a hot plate or something...)

*I still do not know the optimal numbers of decarboxylation in oil. That would have been awesome to know about! *
The only actual lab test numbers I have found is from that "Nova" decarb mug, but they have only used their own "one cycle decarboxylation" before testing, and that is only about 60-75 minutes at 103°C. so it is not either long enouth or hot enough... 
I have tried decarbing in the oven before adding to the oil, but I cannot "feel" any difference, other then loosing all terpenoids in the kitchen... 
I have also done it dry in the crack-pot before adding oil, ant that seem to work fine! But as I am happy to keep a certain percentage of all the "acid cannabinoids" (e.g. THCa/CBDa) I think I will just keep doing it WITHIN the oil! -Feels like I am keeping a lot more of all the goodies that way...
*
Also still missing the optimal time and heat for CBDa and CBGa decarboxylation!* 
For CBD adding about 50% longer time then for THC seems to be about right? 
For CBG keeping it below about 75°C and using even longer time might be correct? 

I have also been cooking all kind of spices! 
Both fresh and dry spices from the shop letting it simmer in oil in the crock-pot for days, straining it, and adding to the cannabis-oil to boost terpenoid levels! 
I have also been adding terpenoids in the form of essential oils. Partly to boost the mix, and partly to add flavour. 
With this I have also been doing salve with bees-wax that is actually a really amazing way of taking cannabis!! (Thank you for pointing me that way @Freedom seed ! 
The last batch was with only about 1% THC, 0.5% CBD and 0.5% CBG, and still doing wonders!! Both as a pain-killer, skin treatment, and general intake in the body!...
I can just recommend you all to try the topical way!! 
Just wish I had some really high CBD strains to play with, and I am certain I could decrease THC levels even more for certain conditions!... 

Anyway. 
That is my findings so far... 

Keep safe and stay at home folks! 
Peace and Love!
/Orre


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