# Yes On 19 Here's Why!



## vradd (Sep 27, 2010)

https://www.rollitup.org/california-patients/370795-im-voting-yes.html

i think i should of posted it originally here instead of in the CA section.


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

Vote NO on Prop 19.

It is bad for everybody.


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## vradd (Sep 27, 2010)

even though u give good grow tips i dont understand what "bad for everyone" means??


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

You need to read. I've explained the flaws in detail in several threads.

If you really give a shit, look them up.

If not, there's nothing I can do.

Go ahead and jump off that bridge.(Voting "yes" on 19 is a self destructive act for anyone who likes smoking pot.)


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## vradd (Sep 27, 2010)

so i just got done with a a lil over 20 pages of your thread before it seemed the same debates started repeating...
and seems everyone was comming back on your reasonings.
so whats YOUR issue with the law? that YOU cant grow what you want to smoke in a 25sq ft area?


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

vradd said:


> so i just got done with a a lil over 20 pages of your thread before it seemed the same debates started repeating...
> 
> so whats YOUR issue with the law? that YOU cant grow what you want to smoke in a 25sq ft area?


Precisely.

My wife is a huge consumer. Myself and two others only consume about half of what she does, together.

I currently am completely legal, with the blessings of our local law enforcement. They know where I live. They know how much I grow. They know where it goes. They've even talked to our doctors.

Prop 19 would suddenly reduce my grow by 92%.

Do the math.

Hidden behind all they other issues is the impact on co-ops like mine. This a push to force medical users to buy from clubs/pot stores/dispensaries.

An eighth a week isn't too bad.

My wife uses about three ounces a week.

Can you lend me $1000 a week to cover my shortage?


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## vradd (Sep 27, 2010)

but the proposition doesnt state ANYTHING over medicinal usage. and u were called out on it in your thread. what does having blessings from leo's do? your legal as far as they are concerned your nothing to worry about. so saying that means nothing. and u want to talk math once again... how does your crop get reduced? it DOES NOT specifically say anything like that in the text. your just assuming it. 

now heres my questions so if they are too personal u dont have to answer but it would clear a lot of things before i personally start assuming lol.

-if your wife consumes 3oz a week, by which method is she going through all of it? because if shes smoking it by open flame then wheres the health concerns of inhaling 3oz of plant material?
if shes using a vape then theirs no way shes going through that much, if she is i still find that hard to believe. 

-if your growing such quality bud as you claim then why the need for her to have 3oz a week? if shes medicating enough to get the effects that shes required, then technically she should'nt need so many doses?

where are you getting the idea this is a push for getting medical users to buy from clubs?
as is with the system these clubs are taking advantage of patients with current costs. so whos really winning?

and lend you 1k a week to cover shortage? shortage to that weed your growing and possibly marketing? even if you lowballed your prices between those 3ppl a wee,k seems like a lot of weight being moved somewhere for you to get those figures.

i think your getting it wrong, or maybe i am. but this law seems to 'allow' a chance for weed to be legal with certain discrepancies. the state will ultimately leave it up to the county's to "regulate and tax" it. which how laws should be anyways. if you want to charge a rahrah over your rights, then vote yes and take the arguement to your local officials when they try to over tax it. 

this measure is just the foot in the door, which is what we need to continue the movement. things can change they always do. hell how many times has being in gay been banned already?


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## JoesphStalin (Sep 27, 2010)

vote 
NO!!!!


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

Read the other threads.

I'm not going to repeat it all again.

My post regarding my motives says it all. I know what I'm talking about, believe it or not.

I also have a talent for spotting bull shit.

It amounts to following the money.

If you want to cast an informed vote, read everything you can.

If you don't have the time, vote no.

You'll be glad you did.

(The above three lines were written by a great author. R A Heinlein. The quote is rough, but carries his meaning.)


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

When Prop 19 passes and people stop going to jail for marijuana ... when marijuana is everywhere and an abundant commodity ... when it costs a fraction of what it does today ... and when all the stigmas are lifted and people treat it the same as alcohol ...

don't sit here and pretend like you were collecting signatures and fighting for it to pass.

Remind yourself every time you light a joint while freely looking at the cops outside your window that you fought tooth and nail to prevent it from all happening. 

Remember that you were an enemy of the legalization movement and a friend to prohibition.


Stop sending good hardworking people to jail simply because they choose marijuana over other recreational activities. 
Vote YES on Prop 19!


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## vradd (Sep 27, 2010)

well ive read your other posts and i still cant come to the conclusion how your giving 3oz of combustible vegetation a week and claiming that is a healthier alternative. 3oz for one person just seems like you'd be so heavily sedated it would defeat the purpose. mathematically i cant put a finger on it. thats like half an oz a day. holy cow! im not denying u know your stuff but when you say u dont want it legal so YOU can grow and you admit your wife alone is in the 3oz/week mark and you finish saying that if it becomes legal you'd like that thousand dollars cash to cover what you'd be losing....

it just all doesnt sound right ya know?


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

Based on experience, I don't believe there will be any reduction in arrests, just the charges(half a square foot too much in cultivation, or one roach over the legal household limit of one ounce. 28.35 grams).


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

vradd said:


> well ive read your other posts and i still cant come to the conclusion how your giving 3oz of combustible vegetation a week and claiming that is a healthier alternative. 3oz for one person just seems like you'd be so heavily sedated it would defeat the purpose. mathematically i cant put a finger on it. thats like half an oz a day. holy cow! im not denying u know your stuff but when you say u dont want it legal so YOU can grow and you admit your wife alone is in the 3oz/week mark and you finish saying that if it becomes legal you'd like that thousand dollars cash to cover what you'd be losing....
> 
> it just all doesnt sound right ya know?


It beats death.

Get it now?


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

When Prop 19 passes you, your wife, and any other adult you know will be able to purchase marijuana at lower costs than ANY other medication. You'll still be able to grow your own as well.

Stop complaining and crying to everyone that they should keep throwing people in jail for marijuana just because it doesn't fit YOUR needs.

How selfish.


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

tc1 said:


> When Prop 19 passes you, your wife, and any other adult you know will be able to purchase marijuana at lower costs than ANY other medication. You'll still be able to grow your own as well.
> 
> Stop complaining and crying to everyone that they should keep throwing people in jail for marijuana just because it doesn't fit YOUR needs.
> 
> How selfish.


I guess I'll sell your organs to pay for my short fall?

Any other volunteers?

I haven't paid for our meds in a very long time.

I won't go broke because a dick head says I should.

Dickhead = YOU.


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## TokinPodPilot (Sep 27, 2010)

vradd said:


> but the proposition doesnt state ANYTHING over medicinal usage. and u were called out on it in your thread. what does having blessings from leo's do? your legal as far as they are concerned your nothing to worry about. so saying that means nothing. and u want to talk math once again... how does your crop get reduced? it DOES NOT specifically say anything like that in the text. your just assuming it.


True. Now, counterpoint... when have you ever known law enforcement or government agencies to correctly interpret law. And it's the way that they've tended to exert that interpretive authority in the past and even currently that makes the ambiguous wording of the bill so potentially dangerous. And if I can see it, as an activist, you can be assured that the powers that be see it, too. Plus the places where the bill aren't so ambiguous and are rather specific are equally worrying. I won't argue the children present clause because that's a pretty subjective thing, but the clause suddenly excluding the 18-20 crowd is just disturbing. Given the staggering rate at which the sub-21 year-old crowd is able to acquire and consume alcohol in blatant disregard for existing law, I fail to see how adding more things for them to break the law about is a good thing. One other specific that is pretty bothersome is the authority that is granted to local government to decide policy. The verbiage seems very much to support that ultimate decision authority sits with the local government agency (typically the city council or county board of supervisors) without any provisions for the community to challenge the decision because their decision is authorized by voter-initiative legislation. These may just be assumptions, but they are reasonable assumptions of actions that are squarely in line with the precedents that the entities in question have demonstrated repeatedly over several decades and continue to exhibit. Each side can throw out all the crazy numbers they want, the facts on the field are that the majority of local government agencies are NOT on our side and that Prop. 19 has provisions that can be far too easily abused by those same "hostile" entities.



vradd said:


> now heres my questions so if they are too personal u dont have to answer but it would clear a lot of things before i personally start assuming lol.


I'm not veggie, but I can offer a few reasonable arguments from a semi-objective perspective. As semi-objective as one who is against 19 could be.



vradd said:


> -if your wife consumes 3oz a week, by which method is she going through all of it? because if shes smoking it by open flame then wheres the health concerns of inhaling 3oz of plant material?
> if shes using a vape then theirs no way shes going through that much, if she is i still find that hard to believe.


Getting caught up in the numbers game is just a propaganda ploy on both sides. The fact is that there are plenty of valid and real reasons that someone could need far more cannabis than one would expect or believe. Some people are only able to assume cannabis through tincture or balms or edibles, and everyone has a different titration threshold. The real point here is why the limit? Under current legislation, there is mention of 1 ounce as being the threshold at which personal consumption can be assumed as opposed to intent to sell. But, that's not to say that you can't have more than an ounce. The caveat is, obviously, that if you have more than an ounce then you'll need a court appearance to prove "personal consumption". But an ounce or less now is a $100 fine, if you are caught. No jail time, no detainment. You might have to do the cannabis equivalent of traffic school to drop the charges from your record, but it's really no worse than traffic school. Essentially, the rights that 19 grants, we already have with greater freedom now.



vradd said:


> -if your growing such quality bud as you claim then why the need for her to have 3oz a week? if shes medicating enough to get the effects that shes required, then technically she should'nt need so many doses?


Once again, these number games don't really amount to much. They're about as useful as political polling. There are plenty of people with conditions that require them to medicate more than any of us, or perhaps they're having to overcome a certain amount of tolerance. If someone is using cannabis for pain-management, I can't really see them wanting to discontinue medicating long enough to give their system time to de-acclimate. Again, personal titration is far too subjective to be making any judgments on anyone's usage requirements.



vradd said:


> where are you getting the idea this is a push for getting medical users to buy from clubs?
> as is with the system these clubs are taking advantage of patients with current costs. so whos really winning?


Well, since the inception of Prop 215, patients who didn't grow or know a grower well enough, had to go somewhere for their meds. The rather haphazard and risky nature of the system made it seem necessary to put buffers between growers and patients. Prop. 19 doesn't do anything to address that problems specifically. It just makes provisions for permitted entities to take up the place as the new middlemen of the recreational circle. Effective legislation would put patients/clients in closer or more direct contact with growers. Pretending that Prop. 19 will allow for this requires complete ignorance of the last 80 years of commercial industrialization. 



vradd said:


> and lend you 1k a week to cover shortage? shortage to that weed your growing and possibly marketing? even if you lowballed your prices between those 3ppl a wee,k seems like a lot of weight being moved somewhere for you to get those figures.


I'm sorry... this seems a bit hypocritical to me. This proposition is dripping profits for "permitted" entities. Profit margins potentially in the millions for large-scale producers even. But you want to begrudge the small/medium grower who is direct marketing to patients and/or clubs. Keep in mind that the grower is the low-end in the medical supply system. If there's anyone's profit margins to be questioned, it's the middle men. I know that, personally, I've had to search around a bit to find clubs that don't charge ridiculous prices over what they've paid. Nothing in 19 fixes or addresses these problems.



vradd said:


> i think your getting it wrong, or maybe i am. but this law seems to 'allow' a chance for weed to be legal with certain discrepancies. the state will ultimately leave it up to the county's to "regulate and tax" it. which how laws should be anyways. if you want to charge a rahrah over your rights, then vote yes and take the arguement to your local officials when they try to over tax it.


Since 19 will grant local government the authority to decide policy without the need for voter approval or input, anyone stuck in a "dry" region will have little legal recourse. City council/County Supervisors will say that Prop. 19 grants them the authority to decide and that's that. The problem is that Prop 19 is ambiguous in favor of local government over the populace. Prop. 215 was purposely ambiguous in favor of patients/the public which is why it's been a damn hard fight for prohibitionists to gain inroads into restricting medical cannabis.



vradd said:


> this measure is just the foot in the door, which is what we need to continue the movement. things can change they always do. hell how many times has being in gay been banned already?


 Our foot has been in the door for more than 20 years now. The movement is progressing all the time. We're waiting on the Governator to sign legislation to reduce simple possession from a misdemeanor to an infraction. It's never a good idea to vote in badly-worded legislation that has any potential to harm our community as a whole. Sure, there are risks in things as they are, but we have many legal options to protect us today. It just requires that you know what your rights are as a citizen of California and be willing to stand up and fight for them when LEO and city hall come to take them from you.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

veggiegardener said:


> I guess I'll sell your organs to pay for my short fall?
> 
> Any other volunteers?
> 
> ...


And your constant name calling and ignorant statements only further my point that people should take ANYTHING you say with a grain of salt and understand that you're using lies and half-truths to spin your propaganda.


Pretty sad that someone who waves the "compassion for medical marijuana patients" flag resorts to name calling and acting like an infant.  You need to grow up and show compassion to ALL people ... not just your wife.

Prop 19 isn't about veggie's wife .. sorry. It's about the greater good. It's about ending the WAR ON PEOPLE who choose to use marijuana.

End of Story


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

TokinPodPilot said:


> True. Now, counterpoint... when have you ever known law enforcement or government agencies to correctly interpret law. And it's the way that they've tended to exert that interpretive authority in the past and even currently that makes the ambiguous wording of the bill so potentially dangerous. And if I can see it, as an activist, you can be assured that the powers that be see it, too. Plus the places where the bill aren't so ambiguous and are rather specific are equally worrying. I won't argue the children present clause because that's a pretty subjective thing, but the clause suddenly excluding the 18-20 crowd is just disturbing. Given the staggering rate at which the sub-21 year-old crowd is able to acquire and consume alcohol in blatant disregard for existing law, I fail to see how adding more things for them to break the law about is a good thing. One other specific that is pretty bothersome is the authority that is granted to local government to decide policy. The verbiage seems very much to support that ultimate decision authority sits with the local government agency (typically the city council or county board of supervisors) without any provisions for the community to challenge the decision because their decision is authorized by voter-initiative legislation. These may just be assumptions, but they are reasonable assumptions of actions that are squarely in line with the precedents that the entities in question have demonstrated repeatedly over several decades and continue to exhibit. Each side can throw out all the crazy numbers they want, the facts on the field are that the majority of local government agencies are NOT on our side and that Prop. 19 has provisions that can be far too easily abused by those same "hostile" entities.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for responding to a bunch of garbage.

Vradd:

First of all let me say "Fuck You".

My wife got cancer at age 24. She was "cured" and she then gave birth to three children.

A week after the birth of our third child, she was diagnosed again.

A little cutting and other treatments again gave her time.

Three years later she had a hysterectomy to remove a third cancer.

At that time she was smoking at what would be considered a normal amount. About a 1/8 oz/day.

A couple years passed, during which she was taking medications for Fibromyalgia, and several other problems.

The meds nearly killed her liver, and did cause her to lose her gall bladder.

Her Specialist had her try every possible pain medication before suggesting Marinol, because she was aware that my wife did smoke Cannabis.

When it became obvious that Marinol was effective, the doctor chose to write her a recommendation.

She is not a "pot doc", but is on the list of 100 best California physicians.

She'd make(and has offered) the best possible witness a patient could ask for.

And then the Portuguese study of THC's effect on tumors was published.

Anyway, my wife dramatically increased her consumption over a period of years, topping out about ten years ago at her current rate.

She uses edibles and smokes a lot of bowls each day. Her stash box looks an awful lot like(and is) a walk in closet.

Although she suffers some respiratory irritation, she is cancer free.

I could go into the strains I grow, which have above average CBD and THCV levels.

Pearls before swine.

So, you think I sell, and are offended?

There's nothing I can say that will change the mind of someone who won't accept that I am being honest regarding what I do, and why.

Judge if you like, but don't believe for a second you are qualified to do so.


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

Incidentally, she hasn't been stoned in nearly two decades. The body adjusts. Medicating at "saturation" levels does that. Once she stops smoking, the pain can be excruciating. 

Regarding $1000 a week, if prop 19 passes, I would be forced to visit a club four times a week. I was in a club last week. Their mids were $350/oz. Top shelf was $400.

I use arithmetic. What do you use?


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

Yes ... because saying "Fuck You" to someone trying to understand your point of view is going to get you anywhere.

You are being a selfish, obtuse, and mean spirited anonymous internet poster. No one wishes ill on your wife and I hope marijuana enriches her life and health to the fullest.

You can't grasp your head around the idea that Prop 19 will not supersede Prop 215.

This idea that it's a political ploy or "trick" to ruin medical marijuana is BOGUS. Maybe you should ask yourself *why you're on the same side with politicians who were/are AGAINST MEDICAL MARIJUANA*. Why oh why would they be saying Vote NO on Prop 19 if the motives behind it are to ruin medical marijuana. The very thing they are against? Makes no sense unless you're the type who runs around with a tinfoil hat so the aliens and CIA won't read your mind.


Your behavior on this board is well below the maturity level of someone your age. A little less name calling and explicit behavior ... and a little more than a crumb of substance would go a long way.


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

Get off your fucking high horse.

The dick head wanted to be conviced I am telling it straight.

Either believe me or not.

You don't give a fuck about my wife.

I don't believe your tender sensibilities deserve consideration.

You are touting loser, whether it passes or not. 

I suspect your motives are completely selfish.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

veggiegardener said:


> Get off your fucking high horse.
> 
> The dick head wanted to be conviced I am telling it straight.
> 
> ...



I don't care what you think I feel. Maybe you do ... but I don't wish illness on anyone

I'm sorry .... but you're acting like an over emotional poor excuse of a human being. 
Nothing but venom is coming from your words now .... such a shame that we have people like you who pretend to be apart of the movement when all you do is become a fear/hate monger when someone doesn't agree with you.


You are no friend to the movement. And the bile which you spout onto this site only assures this to anyone who may be reading. At your age you should know you can express your opinion without becoming ill-willed and hateful to others.

If you can't handle a debate ... leave it to someone who at the very least ... is capable of showing an ounce of respect to others.


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## vradd (Sep 27, 2010)

wow stay on topic please i dont want this to close.

and veggie mang by me asking the method of use i hope u didnt find offensive. im new to all this legal mumbo jumbo stuff, i wish i could indulge in all this stuff but i cant so pros/cons are the most i can get out of thc for now lol. ive never heard of going through that much in such a short time. hell i just discovered what tinctures are today. i already told you that i believe you know what your saying, and you still told me to fuck off jeez.

now heres my question, you say you saw prices that high at a club right? why dont you put some of your hooah attitude towards shops overpricing on patients? why not make a stand at that, at least what you'd be preaching something that can currently benefit others, even if it is only patients?


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

I do, constantly.

They really don't like being told in their place of business.

Every club owner I know has heard my speech regarding the vendor system.

A club MUST manufacture their own medicine to be fair to the patients.

Some clubs pay $4000 a pound for top shelf. What do they charge patients?

In Socal some clubs have charged $80 an eighth.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

Nothing he says makes sense ...

First he tells us if Prop 19 passes he'll lose $1,000 because he won't be able to grow enough medicine ...

Now he tells me in the other thread he could stand to GAIN FINANCIALLY if Prop 19 passes but he just can't "in good conscious" let that happen.



Like I said .... his propaganda is a web of twisted logic, lies, and half-truths.
Only sheeple would have the inability to see his deception and contradictions ... it's THAT obvious.


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

My apologies if I seem ungrateful for your questions.

Vote whatever way you think is appropriate.

My frustration is intense on this issue because there is so much short sightedness among the younger smokers.

I liken it to still believing in Santa Claus. You still haven't seen how bad it can and will get. Governments are only as honest as their leaders are vulnerable. 

We are in the middle of a huge political storm, brought on by government/corporate collusion and corruption.

Read up on Monsanto and the way it handled the practice of midwestern grain farmers growing their own seed.

The logical conclusion is that back yard growers will be legislated out of existence.


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## vradd (Sep 27, 2010)

well ive yet to see you do the good word here.
im just saying if your so compassionate about pot.

i dont know what they charge patients as i cant personally see i just voice what i see around me.

please list me a shop that list for $80, now that i have yet to see. most around here are $60 capped.


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

tc1 said:


> Nothing he says makes sense ...
> 
> First he tells us if Prop 19 passes he'll lose $1,000 because he won't be able to grow enough medicine ...
> 
> ...


God, you're easy!

I'm retired. I enjoy my garden. I could grow commercially, but don't. I've recently had offers to provide meds for a couple enterprises. They provide the land. I've commuted all I want to.

If demand were to increase, so might the pressure.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

Yes ...

I'm interested in knowing what club you've visited who's selling $80 1/8ths.
I'll be sure to call and share my disappointment in them taking advantage of sick people all while claiming to be "for the patient".

Which clubs are selling $80 1/8ths?


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

vradd said:


> well ive yet to see you do the good word here.
> im just saying if your so compassionate about pot.
> 
> i dont know what they charge patients as i cant personally see i just voice what i see around me.
> ...


I draw the $80 figure from several reports I read regarding prices in Los Angeles.

The highest I've seen locally is $65.($8320/lb.)


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

veggiegardener said:


> God, you're easy!
> 
> I'm retired. I enjoy my garden. I could grow commercially, but don't. I've recently had offers to provide meds for a couple enterprises. They provide the land. I've commuted all I want to.
> 
> If demand were to increase, so might the pressure.



So you've spent DAYS if not WEEKS telling us all how if Prop 19 passes, you won't have the ability to provide enough medication for your wife ...

But yet you have the ability to grow enough marijuana for a couple of *enterprises* and make mad cash?


Yeah ... that makes sense. Lies, lies, and more lies.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

veggiegardener said:


> I draw the $80 figure from several reports I read regarding prices in Los Angeles.
> 
> The highest I've seen locally is $65.($8320/lb.)



Can't name any clubs for us to call and verify can you? I wonder why .....


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

Desire and ability are two different things. I don't want to have to deal with bringing home an ounce every other day. A legal and licensed grow under prop 19 would provide money, not meds. 

If regulated tightly, am I supposed to steal my meds?

Oddly enough, Prop 19 would probably eliminate the businesses I mention due to regulation. When the FDA gets involved, all bets are off(assuming the Feds "see the light" and legalize it, nationally).


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

veggiegardener said:


> Desire and ability are two different things. I don't want to have to deal with bringing home an ounce every other day. A legal and licensed grow under prop 19 would provide money, not meds.
> 
> If regulated tightly, am I supposed to steal my meds?
> 
> Oddly enough, Prop 19 would probably eliminate the businesses I mention due to regulation. When the FDA gets involved, all bets are off(assuming the Feds "see the light" and legalize it, nationally).



Oh ... so you don't have the time or desire to get up and drive to get medication for your wife if she runs out? Yeah ... not buying that twisted logic either. 

NEWFLASH ... if you were making MONEY off of growing marijuana commericially ... you could take that MONEY and put it towards the purchase of meds. (Which would be CHEAPER than they are now if Prop 19 passes) So how are YOU losing money under Prop 19, as you said you were in the beginning?

The FDA will NEVER get their hands on marijuana if we legalize it before we become a permanent state of medicalization. Is the FDA required to test every bottle of wine or pitcher of beer someone makes in their garage? No


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

tc1 said:


> Can't name any clubs for us to call and verify can you? I wonder why .....


Why don't you punch up $80/eighth?

There are thousand clubs in the LA basin.

As I said, I read about it. Again, this is a matter of trust. This is the internet. People build alter egos. They lie. They exaggerate.

I really try not to do these things because it eliminates all my reasons for being here.

tc 1: You've bullshitted your way into a bunch of threads with misinformation. 

I have done my best to provide honest opinions and accurate information.

I've accomplished all I want here.

My reasoning is transparent. I have very strong feelings about this issue. Obviously it shows.

I'm done with politics for now.

I start harvesting in a week.

A lot to do before then.

Remember, Karma is a bitch.


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## TokinPodPilot (Sep 27, 2010)

vradd said:


> well ive yet to see you do the good word here.
> im just saying if your so compassionate about pot.
> 
> i dont know what they charge patients as i cant personally see i just voice what i see around me.
> ...


Don't need examples of either, really. Fact is still that those prices reflects the middleman profit margin not the true price that is paid to the grower. Veggie has said that he likes to lecture the dispensary owners. I choose to just stop vending to them and work only with the reasonable ones that keep their profit margins within reason and offer numerous benefits to their memberships, often including veteran/chronically ill discounts, and both they and I have been known to sometimes just pop freebies to those in need. Prop. 19 does nothing to reduce intermediaries between growers/farmers and clients, but opportunes more intermediaries and regulatory processing levels which potentially serve to increase cost or maintain existing ridiculous price levels. Granted, folk like myself and I daresay, Veggie, are probably few and too far between. Enabling the currently illegal large grow operations to legitimize is very much a threat to the small/medium grower who is trying to expand a small, but growing market of truly compassionate caregiving and services. We do not need commercialization of cannabis. Central distribution supply models also mean central wealth congregation. Economies-of-scale trade quality for quantity using questionable growing techniques and intensive production systems that are often responsible for the majority of major public health and safety disasters such as salmonella poisoning, drug recalls for poisonous defects or life-altering/threatening side-effects, off-shore drilling without effective safety inspections and/or responsible operational ethics, etc.


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## N!pples (Sep 27, 2010)

WOW! These prop 19 posts are so intense... I love marijuana not propaganda! I'm still voting yes!


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

veggiegardener said:


> Why don't you punch up $80/eighth?
> 
> There are thousand clubs in the LA basin.
> 
> ...



Says the guy name calling, using explicit language, and wishing ill-will on others.

You have been exposed ... through and through. You should have stopped while you were behind.

Anymore hypocritical comments, lies, or twisted logic you would like to share before you go cure your " non-harvested" "finished buds" lol


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

TokinPodPilot said:


> Don't need examples of either, really. Fact is still that those prices reflects the middleman profit margin not the true price that is paid to the grower. Veggie has said that he likes to lecture the dispensary owners. I choose to just stop vending to them and work only with the reasonable ones that keep their profit margins within reason and offer numerous benefits to their memberships, often including veteran/chronically ill discounts, and both they and I have been known to sometimes just pop freebies to those in need. Prop. 19 does nothing to reduce intermediaries between growers/farmers and clients, but opportunes more intermediaries and regulatory processing levels which potentially serve to increase cost or maintain existing ridiculous price levels. Granted, folk like myself and I daresay, Veggie, are probably few and too far between. Enabling the currently illegal large grow operations to legitimize is very much a threat to the small/medium grower who is trying to expand a small, but growing market of truly compassionate caregiving and services. *We do not need commercialization of cannabis*. Central distribution supply models also mean central wealth congregation. Economies-of-scale trade quality for quantity using questionable growing techniques and intensive production systems that are often responsible for the majority of major public health and safety disasters such as salmonella poisoning, drug recalls for poisonous defects or life-altering/threatening side-effects, off-shore drilling without effective safety inspections and/or responsible operational ethics, etc.


Cannabis is already commercialized (Large medical dispensaries and the black market)

There is nothing in Prop 19 which legislates a central distribution model for cannabis sales. You are free to buy your marijuana from the small guy ... or the big guy.

Just as you have the option to buy beer from a micro-brewery or Budweiser. Under Prop 19 you are also free to grow your own marijuana, just as you are free to make your own beer. No difference what so ever.


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## TokinPodPilot (Sep 27, 2010)

Sure, mate.... you go right on believing that. The alcohol reference is just the icing on the ignorance cake. Carry on....


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## vradd (Sep 27, 2010)

N!pples said:


> WOW! These prop 19 posts are so intense... I love marijuana not propaganda! I'm still voting yes!


 thats what this is here for, to ask and get some real questions not these bullshit q&a's that are printed out by both sides that seem to be aimed at the ignorant. 
if veggie wanted to share is story thats cool, kinda helps better understand his side of the argument when its put into example. 

if your saying that the big business is trying to cut out the home grower than why dont they just form a union? contract out special growers.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

Here's the entire section with regards to commercial regulations. I'll tell you what I think in bold... but read it for yourself and decide what you think it means personally._


Section 11301: *Commercial Regulations and Controls*
Notwithstanding any other provision of state or local law, a local government may adopt ordinances, regulations, or other acts having the force of law to control, license, regulate, permit or otherwise authorize, with conditions, the following:mericial regulations and controls.
(a) cultivation, processing, distribution, the safe and secure transportation, sale and possession for sale of cannabis, but only by persons and in amounts lawfully authorized;
(b) retail sale of not more than one ounce per transaction, in licensed premises, to persons 21 years or older, for personal consumption and not for resale;
(c) appropriate controls on cultivation, transportation, sales, and consumption of cannabis to strictly prohibit access to cannabis by persons under the age of 21;
(d) age limits and controls to ensure that all persons present in, employed by, or in any way involved in the operation of, any such licensed premises are 21 or older;_
*
If a city wants to legalize the sale of marijuana, they may do so ... but only up to 1 ounce per transaction. Buyer must be 21 or older as well as anyone working for the seller.*

_(e) consumption of cannabis within licensed premises;_

*Cities can license businesses to allow smoking of marijuana in their establishment. aKa "Bud Bars"*

_(f) safe and secure transportation of cannabis from a licensed premises for cultivation or processing, to a licensed premises for sale or on-premises consumption of cannabis;
(g) prohibit and punish through civil fines or other remedies the possession, sale, possession for sale, cultivation, processing, or transportation of cannabis that was not obtained lawfully from a person pursuant to this section or section 11300;_

*You must transport commercial marijuana from one licensed place to another for sale. You can be busted by the city if you obtain marijuana illegally for resale.

* _(h) appropriate controls on licensed premises for sale, cultivation, processing, or sale and on-premises consumption, of cannabis, including limits on zoning and land use, locations, size, hours of operation, occupancy, protection of adjoining and nearby properties and persons from unwanted exposure, advertising, signs and displays, and other controls necessary for protection of the public health and welfare;_

*A city can control the zoning, hours, size and advertising of a marijuana store. (They have the power to do this to ANY business already).*

_(i) appropriate environmental and public health controls to ensure that any licensed premises minimizes any harm to the environment, adjoining and nearby landowners, and persons passing by;_

*A city has the right to make sure you are not disturbing the environment or nearby businesses or home owners. (Smoke, smell, proper waste management, etc)*

_(j) appropriate controls to restrict public displays, or public consumption of cannabis;
(k) appropriate taxes or fees pursuant to section 11302;_

*A city can choose to keep the sale of marijuana out of plain view. A city can still tax thus said marijuana.*

_(l) such larger amounts as the local authority deems appropriate and proper under local circumstances, than those established under section 11300(a) for personal possession and cultivation, or under this section for commercial cultivation, processing, transportation and sale by persons authorized to do so under this section;_
*
A city has the right to allow you to grow more than 25square feet of marijuana and buy more than 1 ounce at a time due to circumstances they deem fit.*_(m) any other appropriate controls necessary for protection of the public health and welfare._
_Section 11302: Imposition and Collection of Taxes and Fees
(a) Any ordinance, regulation or other act adopted pursuant to section 11301 may include imposition of appropriate general, special or excise, transfer or transaction taxes, benefit assessments, or fees, on any activity authorized pursuant to such enactment, in order to permit the local government to raise revenue, or to recoup any direct or indirect costs associated with the authorized activity, or the permitting or licensing scheme, including without limitation: administration; applications and issuance of licenses or permits; inspection of licensed premises and other enforcement of ordinances adopted under section 11301, including enforcement against unauthorized activities._​*Cities can tax marijuana, create license fees, and use those funds to enforce the laws.*
_
(b) Any licensed premises shall be responsible for paying all federal, state and local taxes, fees, fines, penalties or other financial responsibility imposed on all or similarly situated businesses, facilities or premises, including without limitation income taxes, business taxes, license fees, and property taxes, without regard to or identification of the business or items or services sold._

*Licensed marijuana businesses are required to pay their taxes.*


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

TokinPodPilot said:


> Sure, mate.... you go right on believing that. The alcohol reference is just the icing on the ignorance cake. Carry on....



Care to expand on that retort?

What part of Prop 19 states you wont be able to buy your marijuana from licensed marijuana sellers ... big or small? (Just like beer, tobacco, apples, or hamburgers)


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## TokinPodPilot (Sep 27, 2010)

vradd said:


> thats what this is here for, to ask and get some real questions not these bullshit q&a's that are printed out by both sides that seem to be aimed at the ignorant.
> if veggie wanted to share is story thats cool, kinda helps better understand his side of the argument when its put into example.
> 
> if your saying that the big business is trying to cut out the home grower than why dont they just form a union? contract out special growers.


 You mean like the union that the big operators in Oakland are forming? Seriously, mate... this is history repeating itself. Big business, for lack of a better term, is about profits. They've failed the public trust with every industry they've been able to secure "regulation" over. The proponents of 19 like to say that nothing bad can come of "regulation". I shudder to think of the lives lost and health endangered by "regulated" industries. To date, pot has a zero fatality record. I don't really think it's too far-fetched to consider that some crap factory grow could release a bad batch of product that either ends up hurting or killing someone. It won't matter at that point that it was the mildew that was missed on the buds or the crap residue left in the end product. It's rarely ever, if not never, the organic grower/farmer that starts a salmonella outbreak... it's the intensive production farm using "cost-effective" methods. Large scale intensive operations don't deserve a chance to screw up cannabis. We should be working to build the network of small and medium growers and putting them in contact with patients. We should be working to alter people's perceptions of cannabis and encourage expansion of the patient/public-friendly medical cannabis programs. People need to understand that Prop. 215 is for ANYONE. Not just people with dire medical conditions. Anyone and everyone that derives any benefit to quality of life, be it long or short term, is entitled to seek a doctor's recommendation to use cannabis. Prop 19 doesn't build a responsible and beneficial system of growers and clients, it just gives large-scale currently illegitimate operations a means to pay their way out of illegality. These are the same types of people that both sides of the Prop. 19 have complained about, and we just handed them get-out-of-jail-free card to repay their douchey behavior of price gouging. These are also the same ones that will have no problem uprooting themselves and their operations to move to whatever community decides to cash in on the green rush. The majority of small/medium growers, who'll typically have ties to their communities, will most likely have to face an all-out ban from the powers that be, or as is often typical of government types, exorbitant operational fees and usage taxes that make it almost impossible to maintain anything less than an economy-of-scale operation.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

TokinPodPilot said:


> You mean like the union that the big operators in Oakland are forming? Seriously, mate... this is history repeating itself. Big business, for lack of a better term, is about profits. They've failed the public trust with every industry they've been able to secure "regulation" over. The proponents of 19 like to say that nothing bad can come of "regulation". I shudder to think of the lives lost and health endangered by "regulated" industries. To date, pot has a zero fatality record. I don't really think it's too far-fetched to consider that some crap factory grow could release a bad batch of product that either ends up hurting or killing someone. It won't matter at that point that it was the mildew that was missed on the buds or the crap residue left in the end product. It's rarely ever, if not never, the organic grower/farmer that starts a salmonella outbreak... it's the intensive production farm using "cost-effective" methods. Large scale intensive operations don't deserve a chance to screw up cannabis. We should be working to build the network of small and medium growers and putting them in contact with patients. We should be working to alter people's perceptions of cannabis and encourage expansion of the patient/public-friendly medical cannabis programs. People need to understand that Prop. 215 is for ANYONE. Not just people with dire medical conditions. Anyone and everyone that derives any benefit to quality of life, be it long or short term, is entitled to seek a doctor's recommendation to use cannabis. Prop 19 doesn't build a responsible and beneficial system of growers and clients, it just gives large-scale currently illegitimate operations a means to pay their way out of illegality. These are the same types of people that both sides of the Prop. 19 have complained about, and we just handed them get-out-of-jail-free card to repay their douchey behavior of price gouging. These are also the same ones that will have no problem uprooting themselves and their operations to move to whatever community decides to cash in on the green rush. The majority of small/medium growers, who'll typically have ties to their communities, will most likely have to face an all-out ban from the powers that be, or as is often typical of government types, exorbitant operational fees and usage taxes that make it almost impossible to maintain anything less than an economy-of-scale operation.



Under Prop 19 ... commercial growers and sellers must follow Health and Safety codes by LAW. Meaning ... they are held to stricter standards with regarding to public safety than you would be held with your own personal grow.

But seriously man .... ? "Bad batch of marijuana" lol Sounds like the same scare tactics the government use to throw to the uneducated public. Where's all the bad batches of cigarettes? Where's all the bad batches of Jack Daniels?
You know why there aren't any? Because if there were ... the government would come down so HARD on them and SO MANY lawsuits would be filed, that they'd be lucky to stay in business. Commercial marijuana growers wont be any different.


Prop 215 is NOT for anyone ... and if people would have said that in 1996 ..* it would have NEVER been passed*. Period. Remember all the "Don't send the sick and dieing cancer patients to jail for using marijuana as medicine" campaigns? I Do 
Do you remember the "Medical marijuana is for EVERYONE" campaigns? I sure as hell don't.

If you say medical marijuana is for everyone, you single handily undermine the intent and moral standing people have regarding medical marijuana. Now I happen to agree that marijuana has medicinal benefits that everyone can take advantage of. But that ISN'T the purpose of Prop 215.

Saying medical marijuana is for everyone only ensures that people will think twice about "sending sick and dieing people to jail for marijuana" because they'll see it as a scam and excuse for perfectly healthy people "to get high" ... regardless if really sick people TRULY need it or not. I mean ... that was PART of the uphill battle with medicinal marijuana in the first place. And now you want to CONFIRM their fears that it wasn't to prevent sick people from going to jail, but so everyone could legally get high? Now THAT right there will absolutely damage the medical marijuana movement.

Prop 19 doesn't build a responsible and beneficial system of growers and clients? Do you want Prop 19 to do your dishes and clean your car as well? Prop 19 legalizes the possession, cultivation, transportation, and sale of marijuana. That's the intent of Prop 19 ... nothing more ... nothing less. It leaves commercial regulatory and tax legislation up to local government (aka local citizens)to decide.

If you don't like how your city is regulating and taxing marijuana ... get out there and let them know about. Contact your local NORML chapter and stay in the face of your major and counsel members until they cave. Much more effective than having to write a letter to your state representative (that they'll never read) or Obama (that he'll never read).



Some people are so paranoid and overly cautious that they fail to see that any direction that points to keeping responsible adults out of jail for marijuana is a step in the RIGHT direction.

And saying "medical marijuana is for everyone" when the entire movement was built on the idea that sick and dieing people shouldn't be thrown in jail for using marijuana as medicine is a VERY dangerous road to travel. If you tell voters and politicians that they've been duped ... be prepared to see medical rights being taken away. 

I can see it now ... "SEE! WE TOLD YOU! Medical marijuana is just an excuse for anyone to get high ... regardless if they have a medical condition!" Trust me ... you don't want to go there.


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## vradd (Sep 27, 2010)

wow bud bars?
well their goes the use of hookah bars. (even tho i never believed in those)

im curious as to why the official balloting packet with all the measures for this NOV doesnt have any of THAT fine print you just posted?!?!

i also am completely aware of history repeating itself. this is the same exact thing happened with tobacco. and in some ways thats why i really dont mind it. is it right? fuck no but if it has the slightest chance to make a positive impact to these political nuts who've lead the war based on pure propoganda then im for it. hell the state could actually make money off this and maybe just MAYBE it would trickle to us common folk some how with stimulus' or job opportunities. i know tahts all a long shot, but we became a nation because people stood up against the queen and wanted to have freedom from tyranny and taxation. well damnit we gotta start somewhere. i always hear talk about oh dont pass this wait till 2012 for xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and who knows maybe something big will happen then, but all i care about is the now. if something good could come from this that benefits the masses then why not? does happyness have to cost something? fuck yea. its life. why should we hide behind a card to be happy? its like being labled for something thats my god given right to have. if this gets turned down in NOV, then i can also live with that but at least we will all know those who tried, TRIED.

**and when i say god given right, i mean in the sense that people are forgetting this is still JUST a plant that scientifically cannot kill you. and no coco plants dont count, that crap gets chemically treated to change the properties.


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## TokinPodPilot (Sep 27, 2010)

Gotcha. Can't see past the end of your nose. No problem. Feels grand about the precedent of big tobacco and still believes in trickle-down economics. Here, I thought you were actually seeking answers. You can sit there and say "Woe is me... it's just the way it is", the rest of us have work to do. Once again, voting in bad legislation with the thought that you can later "alter" the proposition to correct problems... just wow. Alluding to the anti-taxation cry while in promotion of of an ambiguous taxation bill... that's just epic hypocrisy.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

TokinPodPilot said:


> Gotcha. Can't see past the end of your nose. No problem. Feels grand about the precedent of big tobacco and still believes in trickle-down economics. Here, I thought you were actually seeking answers. You can sit there and say "Woe is me... it's just the way it is", the rest of us have work to do. Once again, voting in bad legislation with the thought that you can later "alter" the proposition to correct problems... just wow. Alluding to the anti-taxation cry while in promotion of of an ambiguous taxation bill... that's just epic hypocrisy.



And keep telling people medical marijuana is for everyone and watch as your medical rights get taken away ....

You act as if Prop 215 can't be changed. Enough people hear "mmj is for everyone" and I GUARANTEE it will.

Thumbing your nose at abusing the system will ultimately force the system to change. More EXCLUSION ... More RESTRICTIONS ... and less CHOICES.


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## TokinPodPilot (Sep 27, 2010)

tc1 said:


> And keep telling people medical marijuana is for everyone and watch as your medical rights get taken away ....



Good and baseless statement. This desperation of yours is quite amusing.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

vradd said:


> im curious as to why the official balloting packet with all the measures for this NOV doesnt have any of THAT fine print you just posted?!?!



Couldn't tell you ... but when you go to vote you'll be able to read the the proposition in full. Of course, you can read online now if you wish.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

TokinPodPilot said:


> Good and baseless statement. This desperation of yours is quite amusing.



True or False.

The Medical Marijuana Movement has based their argument around the idea that people with ailments should not be jailed for using marijuana as medicine? *True*

True or False.

The Medical Marijuana Movement has based their argument around the idea that EVERYONE should be allowed to use medical marijuana. Really? Is that why they have a list of acceptable ailments? Because ANYONE can use medical marijuana? Yeah .. it's *False*.

Your statement undermines the intent of Prop 215 and is mentioned no where in 11362.5
Pure ... unequivocal ... fact.

You can keep going on and on with pointless talking points but it doesn't change reality.
I'm saying the sky is blue and you're peeing on my leg telling me the sky is purple. Good grief ..


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## TokinPodPilot (Sep 27, 2010)

And so you can't read either. Awesome. Oh well... the final clause of conditions covered by 215 is pretty plain to read. Since you can't or won't read beyond the surface of this obviously crap bill, I can't really expect that you'd figure out Prop 215, either. Especially in light of the sheer nonsense you spout about what is or isn't protected under law. But, keep spouting ignorance... it's fantastic to know the opposition is just that dense.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

TokinPodPilot said:


> And so you can't read either. Awesome. Oh well... the final clause of conditions covered by 215 is pretty plain to read. Since you can't or won't read beyond the surface of this obviously crap bill, I can't really expect that you'd figure out Prop 215, either. Especially in light of the sheer nonsense you spout about what is or isn't protected under law. But, keep spouting ignorance... it's fantastic to know the opposition is just that dense.



And once again. Prop 19 does not supersede Prop 215 nor does it state as such in ANY part of Prop 19.

Prop 215 = Medical
Prop 19 = Recreational

Anywhoo .... it's bed time for me or else I'm a dead fish in water at work tomorrow.


Peace and Pot to all!


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## maxpowerr (Sep 27, 2010)

3 oz's a week, no fucken way! sorry, but i'm calling you out on that. me and all my friend's can't smoke that much>


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## AbsoluteChron (Sep 28, 2010)

Prop 19 is basically just a way to commercialize the industry to make it easier to tax on all ends. It limits the amount that each grower can grow, and would place severe penalties for even selling small amounts to friends. This puts you in a bad place if you have a higher tolerance or like a lot of variety. Growing also takes a considerable amount of time, effort, and money to do correctly and many people cannot grow year round. It's really obvious that Prop 19 is just trying to squeeze the small growers out and turn it all commercial. 

No on Prop 19!


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## tc1 (Sep 28, 2010)

AbsoluteChron said:


> Prop 19 is basically just a way to commercialize the industry to make it easier to tax on all ends. It limits the amount that each grower can grow, and would place severe penalties for even selling small amounts to friends. This puts you in a bad place if you have a higher tolerance or like a lot of variety. Growing also takes a considerable amount of time, effort, and money to do correctly and many people cannot grow year round. It's really obvious that Prop 19 is just trying to squeeze the small growers out and turn it all commercial.
> 
> No on Prop 19!



Are you able to sell homemade liquor? Nope. Not without a license anyway. Sound familiar?

Forcing people who wish to sell alcohol buy a license has not prevented "the little guy" from making alcohol, nor has it prevented "the little guy" from selling it to the public.

Prop 19 treats marijuana like alcohol and that's ok with me, just as long as I can smoke it and grow it without going to jail.


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## vradd (Sep 28, 2010)

AbsoluteChron said:


> Prop 19 is basically just a way to commercialize the industry to make it easier to tax on all ends. It limits the amount that each grower can grow, and would place severe penalties for even selling small amounts to friends. This puts you in a bad place if you have a higher tolerance or like a lot of variety. Growing also takes a considerable amount of time, effort, and money to do correctly and many people cannot grow year round. It's really obvious that Prop 19 is just trying to squeeze the small growers out and turn it all commercial.
> 
> No on Prop 19!


well if the small grower wasnt so selfish and trying to make a huge profit off people MAYBE they prop would be written different. if the dispensaries werent making a huge profit in the name of compassion, maybe the bill would be written differently. 

if you know your history you will know that EVERYTHING here in the states has been commericialized. its what we are known for in the western hemisphere.

maybe if people werent flipping thousands of dollars from their house it would be written differently, but the truth is its written this way for a reason. people complain that the DEA will have every right now to come in, but dont you think the higher people havent already took everything into consideration? 

if u dont want pot to be regulated then go out and campaign against dispensaries mark ups!

if u dont like when it becomes legal and they tax the crap out of it, get out to your local govt and campaign against it. remember this bill is just to give power to local govt. so ultimately if it passes its going to come on to the people to vote something.

one thing i will say, everyone who has posted a negative response has YET to post any statements of facts, only self opinions. so to me that shows either someones wanting to keep their profits OR someone needs to go back and read the prop again because it still has yet to say anything over medicinal.

so cmon guys! seems all the pros for pot have no problem putting up actual text from the prop to back their fight up.


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## fdd2blk (Sep 28, 2010)

or you could simply vote NO.


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## tc1 (Sep 28, 2010)

fdd2blk said:


> or you could simply vote NO.



You could ... but then that would be voting to keep throwing people in jail for using a substance safer than alcohol.


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## vradd (Sep 28, 2010)

notice how everyone who says no seems to be from central cal and up lol... what are you guys hiding up their? i mean i know the north is known for grows but wow yall seem to be digging a deeper and deeper ditch with no ladder of truth.


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## fdd2blk (Sep 28, 2010)

vradd said:


> notice how everyone who says no seems to be from central cal and up lol... what are you guys hiding up their? i mean i know the north is known for grows but wow yall seem to be digging a deeper and deeper ditch with no ladder of truth.



i don't get it. especially since prop 19 was written in norcal.


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## tc1 (Sep 28, 2010)

fdd2blk said:


> i don't get it. especially since prop 19 was written in norcal.


You mean the same norcal people that the anti-prop 19 people seem to hate so much?
No doubt Richard Lee stands to benefit from Prop 19. He, along with others are the "marijuana kings" of Oakland.
Under Prop 19 ... they will be able to help pass legislation locally which allows their marijuana businesses and others to flourish within city limits.

Unfortunately because of this ... some people would like everyone to believe that it will ruin the movement and damper the future for MILLIONS of people. This is simply not true.

Oaksterdam's local legislation will NOT effect all of California and under Prop 19 each and every city can choose to legislate commercial and tax regulations how they see fit. If you live in Oakland, you have the ability as a citizen to stand up for what you think is right and what you think is wrong. Richard Lee and co can not "monopolize" marijuana in Oakland (against the law). Nor can they directly effect legislation without the support of citizens.

But why vote no on Prop 19 and allow the status quo to continue? Because certain people stand to gain something if Prop 19 passes? EVERYONE stands to gain if Prop 19 passes. This is no different than Prop 215. When Prop 215 was on the ballot, there were already people out there who stood to gain with its' passing. Did 215 hurt the movement? Has 215 only helped a selected few?

It is in my honest opinion, that the overwhelming majority of people against Prop 19 are the following:

- Overly paranoid people who believe it's somehow a political ploy or trick. (Then why are the anti-pot politicians against it?)
- People who currently profit from the prohibition. (Legalization adds competition and lowers prices)
- People part of the "I gots mine" crowd. ("I can smoke marijuana without going to jail already under 215 so screw everyone else")
- Anti-pot people in general who still buy into the lies and stigmas associated with marijuana.

Fact is, Prop 19 does nothing more than legalize the possession, transport, and cultivation of marijuana within the state. Prop 19 then allows *cities* to determine if they would like to use marijuana commercially and provides them with the legal ability to tax thus said commercial use.

Prop 19 does NOT supersede Prop 215 (If anything, it reaffirms medical users of their right to use).
Prop 19 does NOT force any commercial regulations or taxation.
Prop 19 does NOT treat marijuana any different than alcohol regulations.


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## mrFancyPlants (Sep 28, 2010)

Thanks for all your work tc - good luck with that.

I have to laugh though - medical prices are already starting to plummet. The market is damn near saturated in many areas. Either way we go, the traditional cash cow of MJ is going away. If it wasn't for people moving MMJ out of state, the prices would have already dropped more significantly. Supply is > than demand now, with damn near everyone making their own. It's now more about quality than quantity.


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## vradd (Sep 28, 2010)

where are you from that prices are starting to plummet? ive seen $60caps almost everywhere. i love how everyone speaks of these 'mythical' places that have these compassionate prices i have yet to see anything of the sorts. and not of some top shelf


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## TokinPodPilot (Sep 28, 2010)

ZOMG!! There are different regional marketz and stuffs! what's to do?!?!?!?!oneone eleventy-one!


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## tc1 (Sep 28, 2010)

TokinPodPilot said:


> ZOMG!! There are different regional marketz and stuffs! what's to do?!?!?!?!oneone eleventy-one!



Still looking for that section in Prop 19 that states marijuana must be taxed are we? Must get boring ... looking, looking, and more looking ... but never finding a sentence which supports the claims.


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## TokinPodPilot (Sep 28, 2010)

tc1 said:


> Still looking for that section in Prop 19 that states marijuana must be taxed are we? Must get boring ... looking, looking, and more looking ... but never finding a sentence which supports the claims.


Maybe in the title? It is called Tax and Regulate Cannabis 2010.


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## tc1 (Sep 28, 2010)

TokinPodPilot said:


> Maybe in the title? It is called Tax and Regulate Cannabis 2010.



You didn't answer my question.

Where does it say in Prop 19 that marijuana *must be taxed*?


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## vradd (Sep 28, 2010)

TokinPodPilot said:


> ZOMG!! There are different regional marketz and stuffs! what's to do?!?!?!?!oneone eleventy-one!


if your so compassionate why dont you spread the good word then so you can help other patients? why keep a certain shop secret? got something to hide?


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## TokinPodPilot (Sep 28, 2010)

vradd said:


> if your so compassionate why dont you spread the good word then so you can help other patients? why keep a certain shop secret? got something to hide?


So back to personal attacks. Nice. In any case, since the point of regional and localized markets flew over your head, there are plenty of available resources for finding dispensaries that are locale-relevant. But, please continue...


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## mrFancyPlants (Sep 28, 2010)

Depends on the shop - I've seen dispensaries next door to each other and once is twice the price for less quality. I'm not going to advertise for shops so go check weed maps if you think you're paying too much.

It's funny but the market takes a while to work - one place we were supplying charges $60/8 regularly for the larfiest crap I've seen(we don't supply it ). They've done fine for years because of their location - but now that there are 6 places within a block, guess what - no more orders from them. I figure the turning point is this year's outdoor harvest which hasn't quite rolled out yet.


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## ford442 (Sep 28, 2010)

i just want legalization to happen.. there will certainly be compromises along the way for every state - i don't think that we should hold out for a more accommodating bill because lawmakers do not care for the idea of any of it - they will not suddenly change their minds and create weed farmers' markets on every corner.. i want it to happen sooner than later - this is just the first step - since i believe in legalization i indeed want it to work out beneficially for everyone involved - i think that all of the valid complaints with prop 19 are issues that will be changed in the future once it is acceptable for the general public to have pot - then we will iron out the details such as the 25' garden space.. cops will still arrest you if you supply to a minor and there is an investigation - no different than right now.. but, if we treat pot responsibly then we should all have safe and fair access to it...

i want california to start as soon as possible to lead the way for every other state - the non-medical states in which smokers suffer every day from prohibition laws.. i simply do not believe that pot should be a black market item - can anyone cite an example of any safe substance that is kept on a black market level for the good of the public? it should be treated like any other product or crop or object in normal society.. it should have a value based on its legitimate worth in any given situation.. no other state is going to do it - california needs to be bold and take the stand that smoking pot responsibly is not a crime!


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## tc1 (Sep 28, 2010)

ford442 said:


> i just want legalization to happen.. there will certainly be compromises along the way for every state - i don't think that we should hold out for a more accommodating bill because lawmakers do not care for the idea of any of it - they will not suddenly change their minds and create weed farmers' markets on every corner.. i want it to happen sooner than later - this is just the first step - since i believe in legalization i indeed want it to work out beneficially for everyone involved - i think that all of the valid complaints with prop 19 are issues that will be changed in the future once it is acceptable for the general public to have pot - then we will iron out the details such as the 25' garden space.. cops will still arrest you if you supply to a minor and there is an investigation - no different than right now.. but, if we treat pot responsibly then we should all have safe and fair access to it...
> 
> i want california to start as soon as possible to lead the way for every other state - the non-medical states in which smokers suffer every day from prohibition laws.. i simply do not believe that pot should be a black market item - can anyone cite an example of any safe substance that is kept on a black market level for the good of the public? it should be treated like any other product or crop or object in normal society.. it should have a value based on its legitimate worth in any given situation.. no other state is going to do it - california needs to be bold and take the stand that smoking pot responsibly is not a crime!


Unfortunately prohibition and to an extent medical marijuana has created an "I gotz mine" mentality.
These people gotz their money ... they gotz their "legal" marijuana .... they don't care about the rest of us.

Profit over Freedom
Medicine over Morals


You could write the greatest proposition on the planet and the majority of these type of people will still pick it a part and tell people to vote no. Why? Because "they gotz theirs" and they don't want anything to pass that has the slightest potential to take away what they have going for them.

They don't care about you, me, or the greater good. They care about themselves.


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## tc1 (Sep 28, 2010)

Luckily ... they are the minority and public opinion has shifted.
The majority of people who will vote on Prop 19 are not growers, sellers, or 215 patience unwilling to fight for freedom to all.

Prop 19 is coming ... whether they like it or not. And none of their BS propaganda is getting though to the people who matter.

Ironically, some of the same people against it will be sitting on a message board 15 years from now telling everyone how they were getting signatures and working with the Prop 19 folks to get it passed. But we're not going to forget their faces this time ...

Enemies of the movement will stay just that.


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## calibob (Sep 28, 2010)

Vote No, if you don't understand why then maybe you're smoking to much. Anytime government gets involved it's never for the good of the people, it's for profit. When the prices start to fall and the profit margin shrinks they will change the rules on you. I'm not against legal private grows but leave the commercial corporate cocksuckers out of it. Shit, commercial weed used to be a bad thing and that's what voting yes will get you.


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## fdd2blk (Sep 28, 2010)

tc1 said:


> You didn't answer my question.
> 
> Where does it say in Prop 19 that marijuana *must be taxed*?


better yet, where does it guarantee it WON'T be?


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## tc1 (Sep 28, 2010)

fdd2blk said:


> better yet, where does it guarantee it WON'T be?


It doesn't. It leaves it up to cities to decide.


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## medicalsb420 (Sep 28, 2010)

I publicly challenge t.c to a fight. gangs of new york style! t.c lives in cali, i live in socal. we can video tape it and put on youtube and call it the prop 19 debate. i feel this strongly t.c... how strong do you back your point? t.c your a fuken shit head and it would be a pleasure to stomp your koombahya pansy ass into the floor for being such a blind puppet and further more disrespecting the point of view of true heads that dont take johnny law dick up the ass like you! also your disregard for california jobs and revenue we stand to loose from federal grants due to our non ability to enforce a drug free workplace. try to talk shit like i havent done for the movement?! what the fuck have you done in cali? put it this way i've never heard of you- so you havent done shit! we can create a sub post and compare resumes punk! better have some proof cuz i know you have a knack for bullshit... you dont listen to reason and insist that this bill is a step forwards without having a clue about how the culture has even gotten to this point- what you suggest is complete disregard for the people who made it all possible that are being stepped over and forgotten. take an economics class you stupid slut! words haven't worked... dont start crying how i'm just an ignorant barbarian either... at the end of the day- if you back down your a fuken pussy, and your postion on prop 19 is for pussies like you! what do you say girl?


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## tc1 (Sep 28, 2010)

medicalsb420 said:


> I publicly challenge t.c to a fight. gangs of new york style! t.c lives in cali, i live in socal. we can video tape it and put on youtube and call it the prop 19 debate. i feel this strongly t.c... how strong do you back your point? t.c your a fuken shit head and it would be a pleasure to stomp your koombahya pansy ass into the floor for being such a blind puppet and further more disrespecting the point of view of true heads that dont take johnny law dick up the ass like you! also your disregard for california jobs and revenue we stand to loose from federal grants due to our non ability to enforce a drug free workplace. try to talk shit like i havent done for the movement?! what the fuck have you done in cali? put it this way i've never heard of you- so you havent done shit! we can create a sub post and compare resumes punk! better have some proof cuz i know you have a knack for bullshit... you dont listen to reason and insist that this bill is a step forwards without having a clue about how the culture has even gotten to this point- what you suggest is complete disregard for the people who made it all possible that are being stepped over and forgotten. take an economics class you stupid slut! words haven't worked... dont start crying how i'm just an ignorant barbarian either... at the end of the day- if you back down your a fuken pussy, and your postion on prop 19 is for pussies like you! what do you say girl?


Internet Tough Guy Alert!

Seriously man ... if you get this angry over the internet you have serious issues.
Your post makes you look foolish and to be honest ... I didn't read much of it.

"Publicly challenge me to a fight" ... How old are you 12? 
Seek further medication for your mental illness ... cause the marijuana just 'aint cutting it.

(*waits for the lock*)


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## medicalsb420 (Sep 28, 2010)

can't believe you got me on here talkin shit like an internet thug... i'm a little embarrassed... but the offer stands. read 19 thoroughly, then read the u.s farm bill, then apply basic economic theory, and then tell me this is a bill written for the greater good. like i've said before it's not the idea i oppose, it's this bill and what it tries to hide


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## medicalsb420 (Sep 28, 2010)

tc1 said:


> Internet Tough Guy Alert!
> 
> Seriously man ... if you get this angry over the internet you have serious issues.
> Your post makes you look foolish and to be honest ... I didn't read much of it.
> ...


 no i'm 24, and i'm dead serious about that offer. and you read every inch of my post in between women-ly sobs .


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## medicalsb420 (Sep 28, 2010)

issues... yea.. I need my MEDICATION! don't try to take it away.


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## tc1 (Sep 28, 2010)

medicalsb420 said:


> issues... yea.. I need my MEDICATION! don't try to take it away.


Your medication doesn't get taken away under Prop 19.
SHOW ME where it does. You can't ... because it doesn't.

"But...but...but it implies" NO .... a law can't IMPLY anything. It has to be explicitly EXPRESSED in the law.

Not only is it not expressed, Prop 215 has EXEMPTIONS in Prop 19. You don't *need* exemptions if a new law supersedes a past law.


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## TokinPodPilot (Sep 28, 2010)

Countdown to thread closure....


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