# When do you get a soul??



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

Do humans acquire a soul at the moment of conception, or birth? Or sometime between then? Or when? Im conflicted by this question all the time.


----------



## CannaChameleon (Jun 19, 2012)

interesting question... i would say it couldnt possibly be before they have developed a sense of morality (or not) - or are emotionally capable. Maybe its when your brain chemestry develops to give you an identity (at fetus level). Its a slippery slope, all this abstract 'wondering', dont get me started on the conceptual problem of infinity - caused me many restless nights lol


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Why posit a soul at all? As near as i can tell, there is zero evidence for "soul" being a useful and characterizable quantity.
cn


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

CannaChameleon said:


> interesting question... i would say it couldnt possibly be before they have developed a sense of morality (or not) - or are emotionally capable. Maybe its when your brain chemestry develops to give you an identity (at fetus level). Its a slippery slope, all this abstract 'wondering', dont get me started on the conceptual problem of infinity - caused me many restless nights lol


I feel the same way.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Why posit a soul at all? As near as i can tell, there is zero evidence for "soul" being a useful and characterizable quantity.
> cn


If you set all science aside cn, and really think about the things humans are capable of spiritually and emotionally, you will see we have a soul. I think humans havings souls is the one and only thing that every religion agrees on. Without a soul we would just be organisms that live to die.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> If you set all science aside cn, and really think about the things humans are capable of spiritually and emotionally, you will see we have a soul. I think humans having souls is the one and only thing that every religion agrees on. Without a soul we would just be organisms that live to die.


I have meditated intensely upon the question. If you can show me in a consequent manner how I too can conclude that soul is 
a) real
b) of consequence, 
i will listen.
However most or all of the attributes I've seen ascribed to Soul can be taken over, without injury, by the utterly unmagical properties of Mind. As a result, I don't consider the term "spirit" or "spiritual" to have value. So yes, I am sympathetic to the view that we are animals like others, with just as much no-soul. I believe we do live to die, and to ideally have offspring who can carry the bloodline and culture forward. 

These discussions typically end badly, since neither side can effectively prove its claims or disprove those of the opponent's. When a standard of intellectual andor philosophical rigor is not shared, effective discussion becomes difficult. My opinion. cn


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

I believe in god and in the fact that we are pretty much just organisms that live and die, not live to die, everything that is living is food for something else, life is supposed to spread and create more life or as it is put in the bible to go forth and procreate...


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I have meditated intensely upon the question. If you can show me in a consequent manner how I too can conclude that soul is
> a) real
> b) of consequence,
> i will listen.
> ...


do you believe in any kind of spirits or spirituality?


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> I believe in god and in the fact that we are pretty much just organisms that live and die, not live to die, everything that is living is food for something else, life is supposed to spread and create more life or as it is put in the bible to go forth and procreate...


Nah, when our physical bodies die our souls continue to live.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

I don't believe that K, but it would be cool if it is true...

Edit...

If you were to have a soul I would guess that you are born with it if you have one...


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> I don't believe that K, but it would be cool if it is true...


Why dont you believe it?


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> do you believe in any kind of spirits or spirituality?


Not at this time. What I do believe is that we have a quirk of neural wiring that strongly predisposes humans to believe in soul and God and magic. Witness the tremendous staying power of, say, astrology. So for me, it reduces to an interesting property of matter. Unless, of course, I am shown a real reason to change this opinion. My big complaint with alleged phenomena of spirit is their fitfulness, irreproducibility. cn


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 19, 2012)

Everything has a soul, I believe (hate using the word "believe") in reincarnation and that human beings are the final step in physical consciousness and learning. If you havent learned the right things by the time you die then you get sent back to be a human again until you get a sense of what reality is. Not that you have to learn a certain criteria of knowledge, just basically be a good person and love a lot, as long as you acknowledge spirit and love then your good to go.


----------



## UncleBuck (Jun 19, 2012)




----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Everything has a soul, I believe (hate using the word "believe") in reincarnation and that human beings are the final step in physical consciousness and learning. If you haven't learned the right things by the time you die then you get sent back to be a human again until you get a sense of what reality is. Not that you have to learn a certain criteria of knowledge, just basically be a good person and love a lot, as long as you acknowledge spirit and love then your good to go.


This is presented as fact. But it is wish. cn


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 19, 2012)

Define 'soul' without using the word 'like'.

What is the evidence that supports the existence of souls?

Where is your soul?


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 19, 2012)

Can you show me your soul kaendar?


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 19, 2012)

And here come the militant atheists that start arguments that go nowhere...


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> And here come the militant atheists that *finish *arguments that go nowhere...


Thank God. cn


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Why dont you believe it?


That is a deceptively complicated question Kaendar and I must say that on matters of belief/faith it isn't always an easy thing to explain why or why I don't believe in any one particular aspect of Somebody Else's belief/faith...

I would say that my best guess on this particular topic would be that I have not experienced anything in my life that could convince me of people actually having souls.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Thank God. cn


*

These discussions typically end badly, since neither side can effectively prove its claims or disprove those of the opponent's.​




*


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 19, 2012)

damn, shouldnt of replied to that... Get ready for blabber about the scientific process and the burden of proof... lol


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> damn, shouldnt of replied to that... Get ready for blabber about the scientific process and the burden of proof... lol


Not from me. cn


----------



## CannaChameleon (Jun 19, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> And here come the militant atheists that start arguments that go nowhere...


Lol - as opposed to those (for example) christians who back up all their arguments with concrete fact!


----------



## Gmz (Jun 19, 2012)

I don't believe in souls, when you die, you're dead. Your brain is dead, you can't think..... Just dead, simply put out of existence.... Sleeping forever with no dreams. Just my opinion though. Which is why i get so depressed when i think about it . Life is a precious thing.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

Or we could not argue, except the fact that nobody actually has concrete evidence for either side and get on with our lives without being complete dickheads...


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 19, 2012)

You get a soul when you're too scared to admit there's no such thing as souls.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> Or we could not argue, except the fact that nobody actually has concrete evidence for either side and get on with our lives without being complete dickheads...


There it is, in a nutshell. Imo. cn


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 19, 2012)

CannaChameleon said:


> Lol - as opposed to those (for example) christians who back up all their arguments with concrete fact!


Both atheists and christians are right and wrong. Christians blindly follow the teachings of their book word for word, and take everything literally when theres a lot of metaphorical truth, Im not talking about the majority of the book that obviously came out of mans imagination... Things that are true like "Know thy self and you shall know god... God is light" are the most notable ones.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Not at this time. What I do believe is that we have a quirk of neural wiring that strongly predisposes humans to believe in soul and God and magic. Witness the tremendous staying power of, say, astrology. So for me, it reduces to an interesting property of matter. Unless, of course, I am shown a real reason to change this opinion. My big complaint with alleged phenomena of spirit is their fitfulness, irreproducibility. cn


Are you an atheist?


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Everything has a soul, I believe (hate using the word "believe") in reincarnation and that human beings are the final step in physical consciousness and learning. If you havent learned the right things by the time you die then you get sent back to be a human again until you get a sense of what reality is. Not that you have to learn a certain criteria of knowledge, just basically be a good person and love a lot, as long as you acknowledge spirit and love then your good to go.


Where do you think the soul goes when all the "reincarnating" is done?


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Are you an atheist?


That should be obvious lol


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Are you an atheist?


I am a Recursive Agnostic.
I have not found any sound evidence for an engaged, consequential deity.
However saying "I believe there is none" is stronger than my actual [dis]belief.
Agnosticism in its strict sense states that the question of "can God even be known" is answered No. Since my answer to the question is "I don't know", I classify myself as a recursive agnostic.

In re questions of spirit: I note that humans are very gullible and also have this tremendous hunger for the idea and effect of spirit as a source of both power and guidance. So I am a very, very careful shopper in this aisle, to CWE's mild irritation. cn


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Where do you think the soul goes when all the "reincarnating" is done?


To the spirit world I guess. If we really exist for eternity then technically we are inexperienced gods, we have eternity to learn and evolve and discover , eternity of opportunity. So eventually we'd reach god status and be masters of love and creation.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

Asking for proof of a soul is also asking for proof of god. Look in the mirror. You are living proof of god, created in his image. After god finished creating everything in his "7" days (billions of years human time) he "breathed" life into humans.. meaning he gave us souls, seperating us from all other living things. Besides that tho, if you dont believe in any type of spirits, how do you explain demons? How do you explain miracles? I know plenty of people that have seen demons.. they reveal themselves more than angels do. You ppl ask for concrete proof believing there is none just because you havent experienced anything first hand. There are PLENTY of ppl that have experiences with the spiritual world. There is more than enough concrete proof.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> To the spirit world I guess. If we really exist for eternity then technically we are inexperienced gods, we have eternity to learn and evolve and discover , eternity of opportunity. So eventually we'd reach god status and be masters of love and creation.


So you believe that you are a god..?


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 19, 2012)

@ Kaendarffff



Padawanbater2 said:


> Define 'soul' without using the word 'like'.
> 
> What is the evidence that supports the existence of souls?
> 
> Where is your soul?


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Asking for proof of a soul is also asking for proof of god. Look in the mirror. You are living proof of god, created in his image. After god finished creating everything in his "7" days (billions of years human time) he "breathed" life into humans.. meaning he gave us souls, seperating us from all other living things. Besides that tho, if you dont believe in any type of spirits, how do you explain demons? How do you explain miracles? I know plenty of people that have seen demons.. they reveal themselves more than angels do. You ppl ask for concrete proof believing there is none just because you havent experienced anything first hand. There are PLENTY of ppl that have experiences with the spiritual world. There is more than enough concrete proof.


I don't know of one single instance of demon or miracle that has stood the tests of careful investigation. The burden to explain them is not on me but on those who accept these things as real. 
And testimony is never proof. It's too easily manipulated. cn


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Asking for proof of a soul is also asking for proof of god. Look in the mirror. You are living proof of god, created in his image. After god finished creating everything in his "7" days (billions of years human time) he "breathed" life into humans.. meaning he gave us souls, seperating us from all other living things. Besides that tho, if you dont believe in any type of spirits, how do you explain demons? How do you explain miracles? I know plenty of people that have seen demons.. they reveal themselves more than angels do. You ppl ask for concrete proof believing there is none just because you havent experienced anything first hand. There are PLENTY of ppl that have experiences with the spiritual world. There is more than enough concrete proof.


If there is more than enough concrete proof, why is there still a debate about it?

Please, provide any proof of a 'spiritual world'. What is the most convincing piece of evidence you've seen?


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> So you believe that you are a god..?


I believe the creator of this universe views us as his/her equals. I believe everyone is an inexperienced god, with an eternity of learning and evolving, who says we cant eventually learn enough to create our own universe?... Yes, I know how far fetched it sounds to someone who doesnt believe in souls lol.


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Asking for proof of a soul is also asking for proof of god. Look in the mirror. You are living proof of god, created in his image. After god finished creating everything in his "7" days (billions of years human time) he "breathed" life into humans.. meaning he gave us souls, seperating us from all other living things. Besides that tho, if you dont believe in any type of spirits, how do you explain demons? How do you explain miracles? I know plenty of people that have seen demons.. they reveal themselves more than angels do. You ppl ask for concrete proof believing there is none just because you havent experienced anything first hand. There are PLENTY of ppl that have experiences with the spiritual world. There is more than enough concrete proof.


People tripping on acid or DMT is not concrete proof.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Asking for proof of a soul is also asking for proof of god. Look in the mirror. You are living proof of god, created in his image. After god finished creating everything in his "7" days (billions of years human time) he "breathed" life into humans.. meaning he gave us souls, seperating us from all other living things. Besides that tho, if you dont believe in any type of spirits, how do you explain demons? How do you explain miracles? I know plenty of people that have seen demons.. they reveal themselves more than angels do. You ppl ask for concrete proof believing there is none just because you havent experienced anything first hand. There are PLENTY of ppl that have experiences with the spiritual world. There is more than enough concrete proof.


So you believe K... 

I myself have received a miraculous healing before but that no more proves a soul or god than it does the human bodies potential to utilize stem cells super effectively while in the right mental state...


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> So you believe K...
> 
> I myself have received a miraculous healing before but that no more proves a soul or god than it does the human bodies potential to utilize stem cells super effectively while in the right mental state...


Yes, science has proved that god is able to utilize our bodies to make miracles happen.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Yes, science has proved that god is able to utilize our bodies to make miracles happen.


That is an outrageous statement. Pix or GTO. cn


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I believe the creator of this universe views us as his/her equals. I believe everyone is an inexperienced god, with an eternity of learning and evolving, who says we cant eventually learn enough to create our own universe?... Yes, I know how far fetched it sounds to someone who doesnt believe in souls lol.


No more far fetched than my lack of belief in souls would appear to someone with absolute faith/belief in the human soul... I was just making sure that I was reading what you wrote correctly and that it wasn't a miscommunication due to a lack of ability to express your idea clearly, as I've come up against the lack of ability to effectively express what's going on in my head before and said/written things that come off as nothing like I originally intended...

I've just never heard anyone talking about being a god outside of satanism...


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> If there is more than enough concrete proof, why is there still a debate about it?
> 
> Please, provide any proof of a 'spiritual world'. What is the most convincing piece of evidence you've seen?


There is still so much debate because stubborn people refuse to believe its true. When proof smacks them in the face they try to pull out science, which smacks them again becuase science just proves that shit is possible.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

if you honestly believe in your heart that a human is just a simple animal with no soul than you are a tool 2 the machine. go research the pineal gland and its symbology in religion, human concience is intwined with reality, time and the universe around us.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> That is an outrageous statement. Pix or GTO. cn


Lol.. be serious tho. Like I said, god provided us with the intelligence to have the science to explain to ourselves how he does what he does. Its not that hard to understand. Ive seen a paralyzed person get up and walk. No matter _how_ it happened, it happened because of god.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Yes, science has proved that god is able to utilize our bodies to make miracles happen.


No.. It proved that our bodies have the potential to utilize stem cells. How is it gonna prove god made our bodies this way if science can't prove god is real?


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

I believe that religious people jump the gun on calling something a work of God same as many atheists jump the gun in flat out denying the possibility that it could have been a god/angel/demon/spirit/whatever when something inexplicable happens...


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Lol.. be serious tho. Like I said, god provided us with the intelligence to have the science to explain to ourselves how he does what he does. Its not that hard to understand. Ive seen a paralyzed person get up and walk. No matter _how_ it happened, it happened because of god.


I would be fascinated to see you back your claim up, that science has proven a God-effect. I don't hold much hope of it happening however, and won't persist.
Please remember one thing if nothing else: testimony is not proof of anything. cn


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> if you honestly believe in your heart that a human is just a simple animal with no soul than you are a tool 2 the machine. go research the pineal gland and its symbology in religion, human concience is intwined with reality, time and the universe around us.


How is the universal consciousness anything to do with having a soul?


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar your just grasping at straws like most modern day christians. haha you just are finding ways 2 make your ideas work because you cant handle the idea of having been wrong 4ever. religion and this stupid stubborn hold on shit thats purely senseless is holding humanity back in times of darkness and ignorance/


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> No.. It proved that our bodies have the potential to utilize stem cells. How is it gonna prove god made our bodies this way if science can't prove god is real?


Dude you just contradicted yourself. Science proves that god made our bodies this way.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> How is the universal consciousness anything to do with having a soul?


how does it not.....?

do animals have this same conciousness?


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> if you honestly believe in your heart that a human is just a simple animal with no soul than you are a tool 2 the machine. go research the pineal gland and its symbology in religion, human concience is intwined with reality, time and the universe around us.


Like i said before: DMT proves nothing.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I would be fascinated to see you back your claim up, that science has proven a God-effect. I don't hold much hope of it happening however, and won't persist.
> Please remember one thing if nothing else: testimony is not proof of anything. cn


Like I said, the easiest proof of a spiritual world is attacks by demons. A simple internet search can give you plenty of proof. Second would be miracles, god using your body to make the impossible possible.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> how does it not.....?
> 
> do animals have this same conciousness?


Actually animals dont have the same consciousness as humans do.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Dude you just contradicted yourself. Science proves that god made our bodies this way.


Not being a dick, I'm interested to see your evidence for this Kaendar...


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Dude you just contradicted yourself. Science proves that god made our bodies this way.


I didn't contradict myself. 
I said that science has proven that our bodies are great. Then I asked how could they say god did it if they can't prove god even exists.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Like I said, the easiest proof of a spiritual world is attacks by demons. A simple internet search can give you plenty of proof. Second would be miracles, god using your body to make the impossible possible.


I have already spoken to the subject of demons and miracles. Fail. cn

<edit> If you can show me one _universally confirmed_ instance, I will listen. But isn't a reliance on the Internet identical with a reliance on testimony? Consider the scientific method (in general, not applied to the topic). It *never *relies on testimony unless the testimony comes bundled with a "try for yourself; check my results" protocol. Testimonies of demons, miracles and other magic lack this. There is no science of magic, and for sound reasons. So your claim that science tells us *anything *about God is something that I summarily reject. cn


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 19, 2012)

Humans are wired to believe in a higher being. It helps our conscious when we do the horrible things we do to each other everyday.

It's not wrong if your imaginary friend tells you it's ok.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Actually animals dont have the same consciousness as humans do.


no shit...


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> how does it not.....?
> 
> do animals have this same conciousness?


Animals by default would have to given that if we are entwined with everything around us then everything in turn around us is by default entwined with everything else, you can teach animals right and wrong, they can feel empathy and apathy just like us, they get sad, they get happy, they get angry, they can feel jealousy, they can learn, they can be creative, they can be destructive, they can be cruel, and they can be kind... Who are you to say that an other being that you lack the ability to communicate with in as complicated a manner as you and I can together does not possess a soul..?

For all the super devout Christians here can any of you without picking up your bible even paraphrase what Solomon the wise said about animals?


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I have already spoken to the subject of demons and miracles. Fail. cn
> 
> <edit> If you can show me one _universally confirmed_ instance, I will listen. But isn't a reliance on the Internet identical with a reliance on testimony? Consider the scientific method (in general, not applied to the topic). It *never *relies on testimony unless the testimony comes bundled with a "try for yourself; check my results" protocol. Testimonies of demons, miracles and other magic lack this. There is no science of magic, and for sound reasons. So your claim that science tells us *anything *about God I summarily reject. cn


If millions of peoples testimony cant help you than I dont know what can. I can personally say that ive seen a paralyzed person walk. This happens all the time in churches around the world. Medical conditions that science cant cure, somehow obliterated at a sunday gathering in a small town. How is that not enough evidence for you? Especially since you rely so much on what science can prove.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> Animals by default would have to given that if we are entwined with everything around us then everything in turn around us is by default entwined with everything else, you can teach animals right and wrong, they can feel empathy and apathy just like us, they get sad, they get happy, they get angry, they can feel jealousy, they can learn, they can be creative, they can be destructive, they can be cruel, and they can be kind... Who are you to say that an other being that you lack the ability to communicate with in as complicated a manner as you and I can together does not possess a soul..?
> 
> For all the super devout Christians here can any of you without picking up your bible even paraphrase what Solomon the wise said about animals?


Yes animals experience thought and emotion, but they dont know good and evil. Everything is put on this earth to support humans. Trees, plants, water, weather, animals, etc. And im not christian. Im not any religion.


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> If millions of peoples testimony cant help you than I dont know what can. I can personally say that ive seen a paralyzed person walk. This happens all the time in churches around the world. Medical conditions that science cant cure, somehow obliterated at a sunday gathering in a small town. How is that not enough evidence for you? Especially since you rely so much on what science can prove.


Crackpots selling snake oil. How much did you buy?


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

The super devout christian line wasn't aimed at you... just for any one of them that frequent the forum, sorry if it sounded like it was directed at you Kaendar...

I call BS on the whole concept of Good and Evil...

and even if I did believe in the conveniently arbitrary cookie cutter white vs black again... how can you say that any given animal knows good and evil... especially when there are many human beings such as myself that don't believe in good and evil...


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> If millions of peoples testimony cant help you than I dont know what can. I can personally say that ive seen a paralyzed person walk. This happens all the time in churches around the world. Medical conditions that science cant cure, somehow obliterated at a sunday gathering in a small town. How is that not enough evidence for you? Especially since you rely so much on what science can prove.


Testimony is so easily spun, even within the minds of otherwise sincere and careful people. 
Testimony, even by millions, is not proof. 
That degrades into the age-old fallacy of "appeal to popularity". That is no way to truth, or even fact. My opinion. 

Also, why would I not want to rely on science or on a distinct but equally rigorous application of simple reason? I cannot worship a God who would require of me that I suspend the use of my greatest gift. cn


----------



## TogTokes (Jun 19, 2012)

No such thing as Souls.

If there is, tell Santa i said hi.. Oh and Dumbledorf too!


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 19, 2012)

TogTokes said:


> No such thing as Souls.
> 
> If there is, tell Santa i said hi.. Oh and Dumbledorf too!


Don't forget rudolph and the other inhabitants of the island of misfit toys.


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> If millions of peoples testimony cant help you than I dont know what can. I can personally say that ive seen a paralyzed person walk. This happens all the time in churches around the world. Medical conditions that science cant cure, somehow obliterated at a sunday gathering in a small town. How is that not enough evidence for you? Especially since you rely so much on what science can prove.


Does that mean the flying spaghetti monster is real? I mean millions of people (like me) believe is his holy noodly appendage.

http://www.venganza.org/about/


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Yes animals experience thought and emotion, but they dont know good and evil. Everything is put on this earth to support humans. Trees, plants, water, weather, animals, etc. And im not christian. Im not any religion.


Christ, man... you're all over the place with your beliefs. At this point, I'm not even sure YOU know what you believe... 

This entire thread is a collection of fallacy after fallacy. cb even pointed it out, twice, and you still don't understand.

I'm fuckin' out of here before I lose it..


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

Alright guys... You've expressed the fact that you have no respect and that you know the answers to this question that scientists haven't been able to resolve... You're really wasting your time on the boards here... get thyselves to a major university and please teach the world how you came to the conclusions that you have...


Edit...

Just in case it isn't clear... Tog and Cut... this is sarcasm and aimed at you...


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 19, 2012)

LOL at Spirituality Mod.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 19, 2012)

GOD FORBID someone talk about spirituality in a spirituality forum xD


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> Alright guys... You've expressed the fact that you have no respect and that you know the answers to this question that scientists haven't been able to resolve... You're really wasting your time on the boards here... get thyselves to a major university and please teach the world how you came to the conclusions that you have...
> 
> 
> Edit...
> ...


Glad you cleared that up, thought this was a shot at us crazy spiritualists lol.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

No way... I like you crazies...


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> No way... I like you crazies...


 Yo... you wanna hit this?? *passes lighter*


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Why dont you believe it?


Not enough evidence.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 19, 2012)

I think this would also go well with the subject being presented in this thread;

Remember, imagination is not truth... it is speculation of ideas without any basis for physical examination. Therefor these ideas always have some doubt behind them, as they cannot stand up to the burdens of proof required to perceive these ideas as true or real. 

(Which is exactly why "faith" is a requirement when attempting to claim truth to an idea (yes, beliefs are IDEAS) without any truth value)

Whomever perceives these fantasy ideas as real is faced with an inner conflict, or contradiction. As the true self knows that these ideas have no basis in reality, nor have they been proved beyond reasonable doubt except in the mind of the individual. The individual does everything possible to keep from consciously acknowledging that he/she is *not* certain of their "beliefs" so they won't be forced to face this inner conflict, or contradiction.

Though it is fun to think about these fantastical ideas and concepts, they must be left at the door of fantasy for us to keep touch with what is real in the only reality we can measure accurately, this one.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

i just would pay 2 see a Christians face as they realize their entire belief system is completely unnatural, unfortunetly most will never accept this until they die and see it 4 themselves.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

Zaehet you may be the only other person in here who understands the true nature of reality is that we are reality, we create reality, if a tree falls and theres noone there 2 hear it does it make a sound? who fuckn knows? but every christian ive ever asked this question 2 says of course it makes a sound without a doubt its insane. i dont understand blind belief because ive never been capable of it even as a very little boy i remember sitting in Polish Catholic huge church in Detroit and thinking how rediculous the shit that was coming out of the priests mouth sounded especially since i knew alot of christians and knew it was complete bullshit haha.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

organized religion has more blood on its hands than any other group in human history. who is it helping exactly?


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> Zaehet you may be the only other person in here who understands the true nature of reality is that we are reality,


Wow .. Someone who understands the nature of reality .... We need to nominate you for the Nobel Prize eh?


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> organized religion has more blood on its hands than any other group in human history. who is it helping exactly?


If all you focus on are the negatives of the history of religion you'll never pay attention to the good things that religion does... stop being ignorant...


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Wow .. Someone who understands the nature of reality .... We need to nominate you for the Nobel Prize eh?


heck; I don't even understand the reality of nature. And I live knee-deep in the stuff. cn


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> If all you focus on are the negatives of the history of religion you'll never pay attention to the good things that religion does... stop being ignorant...


I would agree. I believe the corruption on religion is what leads to conflict. Religion is corrupted for the control of resources. It happened in the beginning and it happens today.

Religion is essential for our psyche as human beings. Its the ideas that religions ask that make us humans. Wishing away Religion is like wishing away philosophy. You may not agree with a philosophical idea but does that mean we shouldn't have any Philosophy. The idea is preposterous.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> heck; I don't even understand the reality of nature. And I live knee-deep in the stuff. cn


The reality of nature is ......... Death


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> The reality of nature is ......... Death


Death promotes life tho...


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> Death promotes life tho...


[video=youtube;vX07j9SDFcc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX07j9SDFcc[/video]


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> Death promotes life tho...


Death is *essential *for life ..... but in the end just leads to more death.

the eggheads call this 'entropy', things fall apart.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Just dropped my bud in a cuppa tea..... shoulda heard the blasphemy.

fuck


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

Do you mean entropy as in gradual decline into disorder/chaos or what..?


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> Do you mean entropy as in gradual decline into disorder/chaos or what..?


That's what I mean. In the end all there is, is nothing. Life is a by-product of entropy and that's all we know. The fact that entropy will in the end destroy everything we are is a curious cosmic joke.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> That's what I mean. In the end all there is, is nothing. Life is a by-product of entropy and that's all we know. The fact that entropy will in the end destroy everything we are is a curious cosmic joke.


While we have the sun and the ability to produce extra plants and animals then how is entropy relevant..?


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> While we have the sun and the ability to produce extra plants and animals then how is entropy relevant..?


I thought we were discussing BIGGER ideas than that of our solar system.

The nature of reality, souls, and all that jazz.

Entropy shows us the direction of travel doesn't it. Annihilation of physical existence of ALL reality (as we know it)..... After that who knows


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> I thought we were discussing BIGGER ideas than that of our solar system.
> 
> The nature of reality, souls, and all that jazz.
> 
> Entropy shows us the direction of travel doesn't it. Annihilation of physical existence of ALL reality (as we know it)..... After that who knows



I'm not knowledgeable in thermodynamics at all, I have never studied it in my life and probably never will...

I believe that the universe will probably collapses back in on itself to start over again... a re shuffle of the deck so to speak...


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> If all you focus on are the negatives of the history of religion you'll never pay attention to the good things that religion does... stop being ignorant...


Yeah, many organized religious followers are very kind people. There's plenty of god buildings here where I live that help young pregnant moms, feed starving people, help send people in the right direction for gov assistance, and some members are actually kind and will give you helpful advice.. Not that they couldn't do any of those things without their religion.

But sadly, religion has caused more harm than help.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Yeah, many organized religious followers are very kind people. There's plenty of god buildings here where I live that help young pregnant moms, feed starving people, help send people in the right direction for gov assistance, and some members are actually kind and will give you helpful advice.. Not that they couldn't do any of those things without their religion.
> 
> But sadly, religion has caused more harm than help.


All human civilization is based on religion. The Egyptians built an empire and created what would become our alphabet because of religion. Its these ideas that have through history lead to our current scientific methodologies. Everything from astronomy to the concept of 'zero' owe there origin to religion.

Seems a bit churlish to deny its importance now.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Yeah, many organized religious followers are very kind people. There's plenty of god buildings here where I live that help young pregnant moms, feed starving people, help send people in the right direction for gov assistance, and some members are actually kind and will give you helpful advice.. Not that they couldn't do any of those things without their religion.
> 
> But sadly, religion has caused more harm than help.


You can't know that for sure... that is like saying if Hitler had of died as a baby the world would be a better place, it is pure speculation as to the true harm done as apposed to the supposed good that may have flourished in the absence of his presence in the world as an adult... You can't say that the world would have been better without him because if not him perhaps someone worse would have gotten in to power, or worse still the world kept chuggin along until there were many more millions of people and then World war 2 happens and kills many more untold millions of people...

You're purely speculating that everything that people have done in the name of god has caused more harm to the world than if it had not happened in the first place...


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> I'm not knowledgeable in thermodynamics at all, I have never studied it in my life and probably never will...
> 
> I believe that the universe will probably collapses back in on itself to start over again... a re shuffle of the deck so to speak...


Thats what we were told at school ..... Current thinking postulates an ever expanding universe, where all the sub atomic particles occupy an infinite distance apart.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Without religion, what is Atheism?


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

I haven't read anything on the universe really since _*Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the Tenth Dimension*_


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> I would agree. I believe the corruption on religion is what leads to conflict. Religion is corrupted for the control of resources. It happened in the beginning and it happens today.
> 
> Religion is essential for our psyche as human beings. Its the ideas that religions ask that make us humans. Wishing away Religion is like wishing away philosophy. You may not agree with a philosophical idea but does that mean we shouldn't have any Philosophy. The idea is preposterous.


Remove the words (Philosophy) and replace them with (Theology) and i would agree. The latter sentence though i beg to differ.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> I haven't read anything on the universe really since _*Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the Tenth Dimension*_


Ive not read anything since "brief history of time" . I watch all the BBC programs and have spent hours listening to tapes of the greats like Richard Feynmen, Sagan etc.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Remove the words (Philosophy) and replace them with (Theology) and i would agree.


Sounds like too much work. Why don't you just tell us what you think.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

yah you guys are so far from getting anywhere its hilarious. keep looking for answers outside of yourselves and your just keeping the confusion going. when you realize that the answer isnt even anything you could ever put into words, its somthing you have 2 know in your SOUL. haha keep reading deeper and deeper into the bible its easy 2 mold the words into anything you want them 2 mean. when you find your own answers in your heart you wont feel the need 2 push your beliefs onto others in a aggresive "have 2 be right" attitude.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> You can't know that for sure... that is like saying if Hitler had of died as a baby the world would be a better place, it is pure speculation as to the true harm done as apposed to the supposed good that may have flourished in the absence of his presence in the world as an adult... You can't say that the world would have been better without him because if not him perhaps someone worse would have gotten in to power, or worse still the world kept chuggin along until there were many more millions of people and then World war 2 happens and kills many more untold millions of people...
> 
> You're purely speculating that everything that people have done in the name of god has caused more harm to the world than if it had not happened in the first place...


thats the stupidest shit ive ever heard, so your telling me if i take a gun and shoot you in the face i cant say that if that gun had not been made your brains wouldnt be splattered on the wall at the exact moment. that sounds like somthing OJ Simpson could have used in his defence, ignorant bureucratic Zionistic defence shit


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> All human civilization is based on religion. The Egyptians built an empire and created what would become our alphabet because of religion. Its these ideas that have through history lead to our current scientific methodologies. Everything from astronomy to the concept of 'zero' owe there origin to religion.
> 
> Seems a bit churlish to deny its importance now.


I didn't say religion isn't important. I strongly believe that religion was the first form of science. Yeah they thought up pretty crazy explanations, but at least they were intelligent enough to think.. And their thoughts brought us to where we are today. 

I'm just saying that they carried it a little too far IMO. I can back that up if you want.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> You can't know that for sure... that is like saying if Hitler had of died as a baby the world would be a better place, it is pure speculation as to the true harm done as apposed to the supposed good that may have flourished in the absence of his presence in the world as an adult... You can't say that the world would have been better without him because if not him perhaps someone worse would have gotten in to power, or worse still the world kept chuggin along until there were many more millions of people and then World war 2 happens and kills many more untold millions of people...
> 
> You're purely speculating that everything that people have done in the name of god has caused more harm to the world than if it had not happened in the first place...


Ok, you put alot more thought into my post than I did myself.

I was just saying that in the name of religion, more people have died than pregnant women have been helped or starving people fed.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> yah you guys are so far from getting anywhere its hilarious. keep looking for answers outside of yourselves and your just keeping the confusion going. when you realize that the answer isnt even anything you could ever put into words, its somthing you have 2 know in your SOUL. haha keep reading deeper and deeper into the bible its easy 2 mold the words into anything you want them 2 mean. when you find your own answers in your heart you wont feel the need 2 push your beliefs onto others in a aggresive "have 2 be right" attitude.


In other words ... irreducibly subjective. cn


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Without religion, what is Atheism?


Well everybody would be an atheist. Atheism is nothing, it's just a dumb name given to people that don't believe in fairy tales.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I didn't say religion isn't important. I strongly believe that religion was the first form of science. Yeah they thought up pretty crazy explanations, but at least they were intelligent enough to think.. And their thoughts brought us to where we are today.
> 
> I'm just saying that they carried it a little too far IMO. I can back that up if you want.


and the Egyptians didnt found those things on religion, their religion was formed upon those things, theirs a big difference, the Astronomy came before the religion that makes a big fucking difference than the religion coming before the astronomy, and before you say how does that matter, how does "what came 1st the chicken or the egg matter?" is what your asking


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> In other words ... irreducibly subjective. cn


please explain, its really annoying when people try 2 word things in ways that make seem more intelligent. it takes more intelligence 2 explain things in a understandable manner than 2 just sling big, rarely used words around.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Thats what we were told at school ..... Current thinking postulates an ever expanding universe, where all the sub atomic particles occupy an infinite distance apart.


I wonder if it would be possible for human existence to survive in this universe forever. Through technology such as traveling through worm holes, half biological and mechanical bodies with nano machines that have our cells never degenerate. Who really knows where technology will bring us.

I just watched that new Tron movie, the main characters father describes time passing in the digital world as seconds are to years... maybe we will put our brains into a matrix type reality where time passes slower, that way we would increase our time of existence in the real world substantially...maybe we've already done it? Hehehe, i am so baked right now.

Edit: Dude, i watched this stephen hawking show about time, where it says time will pass slower if we can get a shit into orbit really close to a black hole... we could combine that with the matrix idea for ultimate time!


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I didn't say religion isn't important. I strongly believe that religion was the first form of science. Yeah they thought up pretty crazy explanations, but at least they were intelligent enough to think.. And their thoughts brought us to where we are today.
> 
> I'm just saying that they carried it a little too far IMO. I can back that up if you want.


Well, I thought you were denying its importance with the post below.



Hepheastus420 said:


> Not that they couldn't do any of those things without their religion.
> 
> But sadly, religion has caused more harm than help.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> please explain, its really annoying when people try 2 word things in ways that make seem more intelligent. it takes more intelligence 2 explain things in a understandable manner than 2 just sling big, rarely used words around.


If everybdoy had a good sense of vocabulary like neer does, we would be able to understand each other more. We would be able to make our writings and posts more "in-depth".


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> If everybdoy had a good sense of vocabulary like neer does, we would be able to understand each other more. We would be able to make our writings and posts more "in-depth".


except for the fact that what he said doesnt make any fucking sense....go look up "irreducibly" hahahaha


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Well, I thought you were denying its importance with the post below.


If anything, that post helps give religion a good name. 
I still stick by what I said though (assuming you're talking about the "not that they couldn't do any of those things without their religion". We could be where we are today and maybe be even more advanced without religion. Science has always been there.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Well everybody would be an atheist. Atheism is nothing, it's just a dumb name given to people that don't believe in fairy tales.


Atheism is essentially the rejection of an idea. Without the idea to reject we are left without the question. Without the question, all we are, are animals.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> please explain, its really annoying when people try 2 word things in ways that make seem more intelligent. it takes more intelligence 2 explain things in a understandable manner than 2 just sling big, rarely used words around.


It would help very much if you didn't treat a numeral as an auxiliary verb. And those are two words I use often, so I challenge that part of your complaint as well. cn

<edit> technically, a particle.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

subjective....yes, irreducibly subjective....no because somthing cannot be irreducibly subjective, that doesnt even make sense.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> thats the stupidest shit ive ever heard, so your telling me if i take a gun and shoot you in the face i cant say that if that gun had not been made your brains wouldnt be splattered on the wall at the exact moment. that sounds like somthing OJ Simpson could have used in his defence, ignorant bureucratic Zionistic defence shit


That is not what I said at all... your comprehension skills are lacking... 

It would equate to if you put a gun in my face, pulled the trigger and put pieces of my brain on the wall behind me that there is no way to know that if by your actions you did more harm to the world than you did good... my not yet conceived children could grow up to be war criminals and you may have stopped that from happening...

on the flip side if you don't kill me my children becoming war criminals and the atrocities that they commit could involve the murdering of someone that could have grown up to become worse than all of my potential war criminal children combined...


You can never say with accuracy and certainty that the world/humanity would have been better off without something happening or if something had have happened... it is all speculation...


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> subjective....yes, irreducibly subjective....no because [something] cannot be irreducibly subjective, that [doesn't] even make sense.


If you cannot remove subjectivity from a concept, I would call that irreducible. That has the consequence of making it unarguable in either direction. cn


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> I wonder if it would be possible for human existence to survive in this universe forever. Through technology such as traveling through worm holes, half biological and mechanical bodies with nano machines that have our cells never degenerate. Who really knows where technology will bring us.
> 
> I just watched that new Tron movie, the main characters father describes time passing in the digital world as seconds are to years... maybe we will put our brains into a matrix type reality where time passes slower, that way we would increase our time of existence in the real world substantially...maybe we've already done it? Hehehe, i am so baked right now.
> 
> Edit: Dude, i watched this stephen hawking show about time, where it says time will pass slower if we can get a shit into orbit really close to a black hole... we could combine that with the matrix idea for ultimate time!


Time travel is possible. Theoretically. We exist in a universe Einstein called 'Space/Time'. Not 2 distinct things. But essentially the same thing.

The existence without a universe seems implausible, we need matter right? .... There maybe other universes yet to discover but life in these universes is unlikely to be compatible to our own.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Atheism is essentially the rejection of an idea. Without the idea to reject we are left without the question. Without the question, all we are, are animals.


I do have to agree... atheism is a rejection of an idea. Which is why i have moved on to the label of the existential nihilist.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Atheism is essentially the rejection of an idea. Without the idea to reject we are left without the question. Without the question, all we are, are animals.


Atheism is the disbelief in a higher being. If there was no religion, I doubt people would believe in a higher being. If that was the case, we would all be atheists since there's no higher being to believe in.

And we _are_ just animals. Just like deer.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> That is not what I said at all... your comprehension skills are lacking...
> 
> It would equate to if you put a gun in my face, pulled the trigger and put pieces of my brain on the wall behind me that there is no way to know that if by your actions you did more harm to the world than you did good... my not yet conceived children could grow up to be war criminals and you may have stopped that from happening...
> 
> ...


 your putting words in my mouth or text whatever haha. your taking things other people said and trying 2 use them 2 argue with somthing i said and its not even the same things were talking about at this point. have fun arguing with a wall, which is probably your intellectual equal.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 19, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> I do have to agree... atheism is a rejection of an idea. Which is why i have moved on to the label of the existential nihilist.


SO agnostics aren't atheists? Real question, I'm not well informed on the subject since I don't care too much for the title on my beliefs..or.. disbeliefs.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Atheism is essentially the rejection of an idea. Without the idea to reject we are left without the question. Without the question, all we are, are animals.


But if you accept the premise that we are animals without special status/privilege, atheism becomes more tenable. I find it harder to accept the idea that our status is somehow special ... it strikes me as the sort of extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. This isn't about proof or disproof; it's about a personal application of Occam's Razor. cn


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> If you cannot remove subjectivity from a concept, I would call that irreducible. That has the consequence of making it unarguable in either direction. cn



yah ive lost all urge 2 keep debating this. peace out yall have a good night.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Atheism is the disbelief in a higher being. If there was no religion, I doubt people would believe in a higher being. If that was the case, we would all be atheists since there's no higher being to believe in.
> 
> And we _are_ just animals. Just like deer.


Well, I believe we are something more than animals..... I eat animals.

How can someone be a disbeliever without any believers?... ponder upon it.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> SO agnostics aren't atheists? Real question, I'm not well informed on the subject since I don't care too much for the title on my beliefs..or.. disbeliefs.


That was one of my first lessons in this subforum. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a god or divine principle. An agnostic is someone who believes that the answer to whether there is a god or not is unknowable. I hope i have that right. cn


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> yah ive lost all urge 2 keep debating this. peace out yall have a good night.


Did neer lose you? As much as it makes me seem stupid, he does that to me too.

Later dude, don't get too frustrated with the internet.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Did neer lose you? As much as it makes me seem stupid, he does that to me too.
> 
> Later dude, don't get too frustrated with the internet.


For that I apologize to both of you. Some days I do a better job of keeping it simple than [on] others. cn


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> That was one of my first lessons in this subforum. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a god or divine principle. An agnostic is someone who believes that the answer to whether there is a god or not is unknowable. I hope i have that right. cn


But agnostics don't believe in a god or diety right? So by definition, couldn't an agnostic be an atheist?
And I may just be too confused, but a religious person could also be agnostic right?

I like this thread.. weird.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> But if you accept the premise that we are animals without special status/privilege, atheism becomes more tenable. I find it harder to accept the idea that our status is somehow special ... it strikes me as the sort of extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. This isn't about proof or disproof; it's about a personal application of Occam's Razor. cn


Consciousness proves privilege... to me at least. Consciousness is what I respect.... forget the religious argument, for me the fact we ask the question means something profound.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> For that I apologize to both of you. Some days I do a better job of keeping it simple than [on] others. cn


Not being a kiss-ass (well not trying to be at least), but you have actually increased my intelligence. 
Keep it up neer.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Consciousness proves privilege... to me at least. Consciousness is what I respect.... forget the religious argument, for me the fact we ask the question means something profound.


I can't make that connection. That may be to my advantage ... or my detriment. I simply do not know. cn


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> your putting words in my mouth or text whatever haha. your taking things other people said and trying 2 use them 2 argue with somthing i said and its not even the same things were talking about at this point. have fun arguing with a wall, which is probably your intellectual equal.


I'm not arguing with a wall, I'm arguing with a complete moron... that is you... 

You commented on my post after failing to grasp the reality of the stupidity of speculating on whether something that has happened in the grand scheme of things has done more good or harm to the world as a whole... After incorrectly comprehending what I said, you made your post that was nothing to do with what I was saying, I corrected you... then you act out, out of ignorance and stupidity by attempting to say that I put words in your mouth when you were the one doing so to me...

Grow up and learn to comprehend, not just read words...


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Well, I believe we are something more than animals..... I eat animals.
> 
> How can someone be a disbeliever without any believers?... ponder upon it.


I'm confused on the subject and not ready for a debate on this, so help me out lol.

A deer doesn't believe in a higher being (at least I don't think they do). So by definition (. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings - dictionary.com), wouldn't they be atheists as well?


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

If you lack the ability to question the existence of god then you can not deny the existence of said god...


----------



## 420IAMthatIAM (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I have meditated intensely upon the question. If you can show me in a consequent manner how I too can conclude that soul is
> a) real
> b) of consequence,
> i will listen.
> ...


i am going bible on this one..Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul...my thought on this is that once man sinned his nakedness came into being.but not a nakedness as we think,anyway to cover them he clothed them with a skin that he made.hence mankind as we know it ..but something always seem to draw to that spirit side all the questions and so on....just one of my thoughts


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I'm confused on the subject and not ready for a debate on this, so help me out lol.
> 
> A deer doesn't believe in a higher being (at least I don't think they do). So by definition (. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings - dictionary.com), wouldn't they be atheists as well?
> 
> ...



As far as we know, deers dont 'think' at all or have any 'ideas' outside of their environment. So they should be left out

but lets follow that logic ..... An atheist believes there are no higher beings, If a deer has that belief, Im willing to call it an atheist.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> I'm not arguing with a wall, I'm arguing with a complete moron... that is you...
> 
> You commented on my post after failing to grasp the reality of the stupidity of speculating on whether something that has happened in the grand scheme of things has done more good or harm to the world as a whole... After incorrectly comprehending what I said, you made your post that was nothing to do with what I was saying, I corrected you... then you act out, out of ignorance and stupidity by attempting to say that I put words in your mouth when you were the one doing so to me...
> 
> Grow up and learn to comprehend, not just read words...


hahaha you really need 2 go make a baby thats what your here for in your own belief system. your calling me a moron for not agreeing with your opinions? i understand why your so angry being born underhanded and weaker than men but its not your fault your not intellectually on the level of a man no matter how angry you get or how big of words you try 2 use.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

"Rawwrrr im a smart women wooo im soooo smart with my librarian glasses why wont anyone take me seriously?" wooooo ahahahhaa


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

420IAMthatIAM said:


> i am going bible on this one..Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul...my thought on this is that once man sinned his nakedness came into being.but not a nakedness as we think,anyway to cover them he clothed them with a skin that he made.hence mankind as we know it ..but something always seem to draw to that spirit side all the questions and so on....just one of my thoughts


Is this just a whimsical thought, or something you have actually considered. I would be interested in the thoughts that have lead to this conclusion.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

hahahahahahahaha and with that im really going 2 bed, Cannabineer dont worry Shannon just made it all worth it, with her angry kinda smart but still cant compete with men ass! ur so cute !


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> But agnostics don't believe in a god or diety right? So by definition, couldn't an agnostic be an atheist?
> And I may just be too confused, but a religious person could also be agnostic right?
> 
> I like this thread.. weird.


You can be both, either, neither. cn


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> hahahahahahahaha and with that im really going 2 bed, Cannabineer dont worry Shannon just made it all worth it, with her angry kinda smart but still cant compete with men ass! ur so cute !


~whispers wetly, almost licks ear~ Shannon is a dude. cn


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> hahaha you really need 2 go make a baby thats what your here for in your own belief system. your calling me a moron for not agreeing with your opinions? i understand why your so angry being born underhanded and weaker than men but its not your fault your not intellectually on the level of a man no matter how angry you get or how big of words you try 2 use.





DirtyGloveLuv said:


> "Rawwrrr im a smart women wooo im soooo smart with my librarian glasses why wont anyone take me seriously?" wooooo ahahahhaa


PMSL ...hes brought the troll out in ya!


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> PMSL ...hes brought the troll out in ya!


that was all in Will Ferrell voice i was saying that mockingly haha like pretending 2 be Shannon


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

nevermind it was funny outloud but not typed out basically i wasnt actually angry


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> ~whispers~ Shannon is a dude. cn


I think he knew, thats why he was flirting.... All that talk of going to bed ... com'on son!


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

im wayyyyy tooo stoned 4 this debate hahaha im trying 2 speak ina Will Ferrell voice through the computer? fucking bubble hash


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

yeah comon now dont project your homosexual fantansies onto me haha


----------



## 420IAMthatIAM (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Is this just a whimsical thought, or something you have actually considered. I would be interested in the thoughts that have lead to this conclusion.


will i have all this bible stored in my brain so at times things come together like 2 and 2.. like ankle and foot


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

take away ALL my fun. cn


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

420IAMthatIAM said:


> will i have all this bible stored in my brain so at times things come together like 2 and 2.. like ankle and foot


Kinda like Moebius and homosexual refrences? hehe


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

420IAMthatIAM said:


> will i have all this bible stored in my brain so at times things come together like 2 and 2.. like ankle and foot


Well, this is what we have to avoid. Allowing our past to infect our current critical thinking. I was an altar boy at Catholic church, I know the bible. But picking bits out and fitting it in a pseudo-scientific manner will not provide answers.

I like the bible, but its a book meant for quiet reflection and won't give us any science.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> Kinda like Moebius and homosexual refrences? hehe


Do you have anything more to contribute to the dabate? Or is your ego forcing you to remain on this thread?


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Do humans acquire a soul at the moment of conception, or birth? Or sometime between then? Or when? Im conflicted by this question all the time.


...soul, to me, is psyche. It is also 'sun' to me. So, to that effect, one would say "you'll 'get' a soul when all of your parts are integrated". That's the Christian 'son', it is a fully developed psyche. Something about 're-membering' comes to mind...


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...soul, to me, is psyche. It is also 'sun' to me. So, to that effect, one would say "you'll 'get' a soul when all of your parts are integrated". That's the Christian 'son', it is a fully developed psyche. Something about 're-membering' comes to mind...
> 
> View attachment 2220104


John Wayne Bobbitt made coin on re-membering. cn


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> John Wayne Bobbitt made coin on re-membering. cn



...nice!  His ex wife was a little off balance then, hey?

edit: 'balance' at 11:11, I like it.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...soul, to me, is psyche. It is also 'sun' to me. So, to that effect, one would say "you'll 'get' a soul when all of your parts are integrated". That's the Christian 'son', it is a fully developed psyche. Something about 're-membering' comes to mind...
> 
> View attachment 2220104


Can you elaborate on this idea? I'm not sure I fully understand what you're saying.

edit: particularly the 'sun' part


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...nice!  His ex wife was a little off balance then, hey?


She had a reputation for edginess. cn


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> She had a reputation for edginess. cn


...not to mention downright disregard for hungry wildlife


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Can you elaborate on this idea? I'm not sure I fully understand what you're saying.
> 
> edit: particularly the 'sun' part


...Christians see the sun as the active (or tangible) phase of something non-tangible. It's an expression of something else that is unseen. There's no doubt that God is the sun in the physical, but also in the psychical. In the sun there is fusion, in a 'son' there is fusion of right / left, etc... a place where opposites exist in harmony.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...Christians see the sun as the active (or tangible) phase of something non-tangible. It's an expression of something else that is unseen. There's no doubt that God is the sun in the physical, but also in the psychical. In the sun there is fusion, in a 'son' there is fusion of right / left, etc... a place where opposites exist in harmony.


Is this a particular school of thought? sounds familiar .... is it 'neo islamic' teachings, for want of a better expression.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Do you have anything more to contribute to the dabate? Or is your ego forcing you to remain on this thread?


ego.....its definetly humor not ego hahaha your funny, keep trying 2 convince yourself your an intellectual. seriously dont cry when you talk shit 2 somone and they fuck w you a lil back hahahahaha


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Is this a particular school of thought? sounds familiar .... is it 'neo islamic' teachings, for want of a better expression.


...in a way, yes, it would go back to gnosticism. This is also catholic, if you can believe it.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> ego.....its definetly humor not ego hahaha your funny, keep trying 2 convince yourself your an intellectual. seriously dont cry when you talk shit 2 somone and they fuck w you a lil back hahahahaha


Im not crying, just asking if all you want to do is trade insults or do you have any thoughts that might be considered interesting.

I'm not intellectual, just inquisitive.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> hahaha you really need 2 go make a baby thats what your here for in your own belief system. your calling me a moron for not agreeing with your opinions? i understand why your so angry being born underhanded and weaker than men but its not your fault your not intellectually on the level of a man no matter how angry you get or how big of words you try 2 use.


You once again prove your lack of comprehension skills... I have not been talking to you about any kind of belief system all I am attempting to do is convey the very simple truth that it is unknowable how harmful or good any one act or number of acts has been for the world/humanity compared to if something different had have happened... That is just plain and simple fact...


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 19, 2012)

To whoever it was that said animals are separate from humans and don't operate on a level higher than their own environment, what about chimps or bonobo's? What about dolphins or orca's? I can think of a dozen different species of animal that very clearly, and demonstrably, have higher cognitive abilities than simple basic instinct. Even some insect species show signs of higher intelligence. I find it very hard to believe that humans are the only animal species on the planet that understand emotion or introspect. 

Having said that, if consciousness is your only standard for a soul, you should include those species that show signs of consciousness, or exactly define what you mean by 'consciousness', which is a somewhat vague term. 

Also, if we're not animals, what are we?


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> To whoever it was that said animals are separate from humans and don't operate on a level higher than their own environment, what about chimps or bonobo's? What about dolphins or orca's? I can think of a dozen different species of animal that very clearly, and demonstrably, have higher cognitive abilities than simple basic instinct. Even some insect species show signs of higher intelligence. I find it very hard to believe that humans are the only animal species on the planet that understand emotion or introspect.
> 
> Having said that, if consciousness is your only standard for a soul, you should include those species that show signs of consciousness, or exactly define what you mean by 'consciousness', which is a somewhat vague term.
> 
> Also, if we're not animals, what are we?


You're right that the definition of consciousness is a problem. Difficult to debate with the confines of a thread. ..... Consciousness could be defined as simply 'sensing' in which case an amoeba could be said to have consciousness.

For the purpose of this point ... I define 'consciousness' as self awareness. The ability to think of abstract concepts and the curse of knowing ones mortality.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 19, 2012)

@ Shannon, perhaps we can remove speculation from the equation completely, why don't we look at statistics of other countries, like Sweden or Japan, which has a large non-religious population, and compare them with dominantly religious countries, like Iran, Pakistan, Uganda or even the USA? 

Do you agree by comparing the statistics, you would get a good idea of things like crime rate, poverty levels, literacy rates, etc. Would you then agree we can get a reasonably accurate measurement of whether or not history would have been better or worse given more belief or less? Although speculation, would you finally agree that it's useful information to have?


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

RE: if were not animals, what are we?

I see the question slightly different. 

I see us as being more than animals. You wouldnt call a table a piece of wood. Or even a cow as a piece of meat. Why call Humans animals? I except this may be seen as philosophical semantics but for me the distinction is clear.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...in a way, yes, it would go back to gnosticism. This is also catholic, if you can believe it.


I thought it sounded like the 5%.

The church of Islam
[h=3]Universal Flag[/h] The Universal Flag is the group's official trademark, which consists of a sun, moon, star, and the number seven. According to its doctrine, it represents the Original Family as the following:


Seven&#8212;The number held sacred in many ancient and modern traditions. In Supreme Mathematics, the number seven represents God, that is, the Original Man, not the mystery god of many organized religions.
 

Sun&#8212;Another symbol of the male, Knowledge, the Truth, and the Light. The points around the sun symbolize the expanding consciousness.
 

Moon&#8212;The crescent moon symbolizes the women and wisdom.
 

Star&#8212;The five-pointed star symbolizes understanding and children as the beginning of a new sun.
 The eight outer rays (points) of the Sun have also been spoken as representative of the core components Nation of Gods and Earths&#8217; teachings:


Supreme Mathematics
Supreme Alphabet
Student Enrollment (1&#8211;10)
Lost & Found Muslim Lesson #1 (1&#8211;14)
Lost & Found Muslim Lesson #2 (1&#8211;40)
English Lesson C-1 (1&#8211;36)
Actual Facts
Solar Facts
 The last six of these bodies of lessons (1&#8211;10 through Solar Facts) are collectively called 120.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> You're right that the definition of consciousness is a problem. Difficult to debate with the confines of a thread. ..... Consciousness could be defined as simply 'sensing' in which case an amoeba could be said to have consciousness.
> 
> For the purpose of this point ... I define 'consciousness' as self awareness. The ability to think of abstract concepts and the curse of knowing ones mortality.


I can already see a problem with that definition as it would have to include those humans that lack the ability to think of abstract concepts or ponder their own mortality, like severely mentally handicapped people or people who go through traumatic brain injuries. They're still awake, alive, but would you call them 'unconscious'? Doesn't unconscious mean the lights go out? You're unconscious when you get KO'd (literally knocked *out*), and when you go to sleep.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

I believe that speculation (based on statistics) is an alright way to entertain yourself with what may happen in the future so we can attempt to steer us away from the mistakes of the past, but really that is just hindsight, maybe even wisdom perhaps could be garnered from it but most individuals I imagine have pretty accurate hindsight... but speculation on what might be now if something different happened in the past is completely futile... 

There are way too many unknown variables...


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> I thought it sounded like the 5%.
> 
> The church of Islam
> *Universal Flag*
> ...



...hey man, thanks for posting this  Catholicism brought 'Mary' into reality to square the circle, so to speak. I like that idea because provides 'worth' to the earth and shows that would should take care of it.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> RE: if were not animals, what are we?
> 
> I see the question slightly different.
> 
> I see us as being more than animals. You wouldnt call a table a piece of wood. Or even a cow as a piece of meat. Why call Humans animals? I except this may be seen as philosophical semantics but for me the distinction is clear.


Why call humans animals?

Because that's what we are defined as in biology. We're not plantae, fungi, protoctista, prokaryota, or monera. 

We _are_ animals in the exact same way that a dog or a cat is an animal. You should understand this is a scientific fact, not my opinion. There are many explanations as to why humans feel they're above the animal kingdom that are much too long to get into now, but research that topic for yourself and you'll understand why. 

Also, what would it take for you to consider an animal on this vague level of consciousness? Would it have to start speaking English? Because I think most animals do share some form of communication, equally as complex, just different from ours. Animals that communicate via echo location is arguably _more _complex! Where is the line from Animal > Human?


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> To whoever it was that said animals are separate from humans and don't operate on a level higher than their own environment, what about chimps or bonobo's? What about dolphins or orca's? I can think of a dozen different species of animal that very clearly, and demonstrably, have higher cognitive abilities than simple basic instinct. Even some insect species show signs of higher intelligence. I find it very hard to believe that humans are the only animal species on the planet that understand emotion or introspect.
> 
> Having said that, if consciousness is your only standard for a soul, you should include those species that show signs of consciousness, or exactly define what you mean by 'consciousness', which is a somewhat vague term.
> 
> Also, if we're not animals, what are we?


Consciousness is a hard thing to explain. Its almost out of the realm of words. Ill think of a way better way to explain.. as far as your last question, we are animals, but we are beings as well. We were given dominion over all creatures and this entire planet.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

So sayeth the LORD... Right..?


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> I can already see a problem with that definition as it would have to include those humans that lack the ability to think of abstract concepts or ponder their own mortality, like severely mentally handicapped people or people who go through traumatic brain injuries. They're still awake, alive, but would you call them 'unconscious'? Doesn't unconscious mean the lights go out? You're unconscious when you get KO'd (literally knocked *out*), and when you go to sleep.


Again another definition, there are many... 

When I say I believe humans are different than animals, I don't presume to say better.... I believe humans have a destiny that's impossible to know. I think we'll populate the stars and do great stuff like that.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

Upon dissection of the human brain, aside from some jelly-type matter, nerve fibers and perhaps neurotransmitters, all of which come into play in our thought and motor functions, there emerges not a shred of evidence of a substance that produces a sense of humor, the appreciation of art, or the ability to differentiate between good and evil. Even if not the precise method, at least a clue as to how these human qualities are produced would, I think, have been in order at this advanced stage of the twenty-first century. But nothing! Zilch! This seems to fly in the face of the principle a "whole is equal to the sum of its parts:" whereas the human brain seems to be the seat of consciousness, its biological components do not seem to possess the potential of producing such a quality.


Is it possible that "consciousness" actualy is a separate entity and has no physical roots? And can it's effect on humans be taken as proof that such an entity exists? "Black holes," despite the fact that they cannot be directly detected, are universally accepted as science.


A black hole in astronomy is a celestial object of such extremely intense gravity that it attracts everything near it and prevents even light from escaping. Because light and other forms of energy and matter are permanently trapped inside a black hole, it can never be observed directly. It can only be detected by the effect of its gravitational field on nearby objects. Yet, as undetectable as they are, black holes are considered as real and as scientific as planets and stars. 


In the same way, consciousness can be "proven" to have its own existence by the effect it has on humans, giving them qualities such as reasoning abilities, appreciation of art, humor, etc. Unlike a black hole, however, since we cannot prove the existence of any physical substance or process that can produce such features, consciousness takes on a unique existence -- an effect without a physical origin. Call it what you will, but this precisely coincides with the age-old concept of a "soul." 


I realize that a soul in itself may not be a scientific concept. But when you can prove its features and qualities as surely as you can prove a black hole's effect on its environment, you have effectively proven its existence. Unlike a black hole, it's origin does not appear to be physical, but, very much like a black hole, it definitely reveals itself within its environment. 


Unscientific, at this point, would be to deny that an entity exists that gives human beings their unique intellectual features. There is no question that it exists. The only question is, what do you call it? If "soul" is to religious sounding for you, call it what you will, but there is definitely something at work here that is not of a physical nature. 


If you don't believe a "soul" has been proven here, you may want to start questioning things like black holes. Nobody will prove them to you any better.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> So sayeth the LORD... Right..?


No, sayeth the rifle.

Im not proud of it but its true.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Again another definition, there are many...
> 
> When I say I believe humans are different than animals, I don't presume to say better.... I believe humans have a destiny that's impossible to know. I think we'll populate the stars and do great stuff like that.


Yes, humans arent better than animals, but we are more than them. Our life goes beyond the physical realm here on this earth. A part of us was here before and will be when it ends. Animals on the other hand, die and decompose and continue on in the cycle of life.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...hey man, thanks for posting this  Catholicism brought 'Mary' into reality to square the circle, so to speak. I like that idea because provides 'worth' to the earth and shows that would should take care of it.


You do know the 5%'ers are supremely racists. They believe white people were made by an evil black scientist called 'Yacoob'.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> I believe that speculation (based on statistics) is an alright way to entertain yourself with what may happen in the future so we can attempt to steer us away from the mistakes of the past, but really that is just hindsight, maybe even wisdom perhaps could be garnered from it but most individuals I imagine have pretty accurate hindsight... but speculation on what might be now if something different happened in the past is completely futile...
> 
> There are way too many unknown variables...


Right, but couldn't you go "well, if today in _________ with a lot less people claiming to be religious, it's a lot more peaceful than in _________ with a high level of religiosity, I don't see why if in the past, the same thing would have likely happened..."? It's pretty clear to me that the catalyst for history's more unfortunate events were because of, or in the name of an organized religion. We see exactly the same thing today, we just don't have statistics (because they would have executed you for taking records) of much of ancient time. 

On this note, I'm in agreement that had we lost religion a lot sooner in human history, human history would have been a lot less violent and a lot better for more people. It's right up there with $, imo, to be the greatest threat to human survival.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 19, 2012)

We can observe the consequences of black holes: there are astrophysical phenomena that could hardly be called anything else. The analogy doesn't really work. 

Also, requiring that consciousness be carried by a discrete substance is an unfair limit. Science treats of oh so much more. Pattern is not a substance. cn


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> You do know the 5%'ers are supremely racists. They believe white people were made by an evil black scientist called 'Yacoob'.



...though it veers toward syncretism, I'm okay with appreciating aspects of other cultural thought


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Why call humans animals?
> 
> Because that's what we are defined as in biology. We're not plantae, fungi, protoctista, prokaryota, or monera.
> 
> ...


Words evolve and words can have dual meaning. An animal can be used to describe a person without civilised behaviour etc etc etc. Or a creature.
I refer back to my statement, we don't call a table a piece of wood of a Raphael statue a lump of stone. Logic and our eyes tell us that its more than the sum of its spare parts.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...though it veers toward syncretism, I'm okay with appreciating aspects of other cultural thought


Appreciation with a heavy dose of cynicism.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 19, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Words evolve and words can have dual meaning. An animal can be used to describe a person without civilised behaviour etc etc etc. Or a creature.
> I refer back to my statement, we don't call a table a piece of wood of a Raphael statue a lump of stone. Logic and our eyes tell us that its more than the sum of its spare parts.


I believe a more accurate analogy would be "table > wood" "human > water/muscle/bone, etc." as wood is what a table is made _of. _Or maybe "table > plant" "human > animal". Phylogenetics deals with classifying organisms into which respective kingdoms of life.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 19, 2012)

I advise you to read what I wrote on page 19


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> I believe a more accurate analogy would be "table > wood" "human > water/muscle/bone, etc." as wood is what a table is made _of. _Or maybe "table > plant" "human > animal". Phylogenetics deals with classifying organisms into which respective kingdoms of life.









I think therefore I am


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 19, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Right, but couldn't you go "well, if today in _________ with a lot less people claiming to be religious, it's a lot more peaceful than in _________ with a high level of religiosity, I don't see why if in the past, the same thing would have likely happened..."? It's pretty clear to me that the catalyst for history's more unfortunate events were because of, or in the name of an organized religion. We see exactly the same thing today, we just don't have statistics (because they would have executed you for taking records) of much of ancient time.
> 
> On this note, I'm in agreement that had we lost religion a lot sooner in human history, human history would have been a lot less violent and a lot better for more people. It's right up there with $, imo, to be the greatest threat to human survival.


Most things that are done in the name of religion and not truly because of religion, people once upon a time couldn't really read and they relied on the teachers of religion to give them the truth of the religion, which even to this day does not happen in most churches I have been to and I'm assuming it is the same in some synagogues and mosques etc... preachers twist words to suit their own ideals and influence people that are gullible... Corrupt people have risen to power the world over all through history regardless of religion or not, and people have gone to war all over the world for no religious reasons what so ever...


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Upon dissection of the human brain, aside from some jelly-type matter, nerve fibers and perhaps neurotransmitters, all of which come into play in our thought and motor functions, there emerges not a shred of evidence of a substance that produces a sense of humor, the appreciation of art, or the ability to differentiate between good and evil. Even if not the precise method, at least a clue as to how these human qualities are produced would, I think, have been in order at this advanced stage of the twenty-first century. But nothing! Zilch! This seems to fly in the face of the principle a "whole is equal to the sum of its parts:" whereas the human brain seems to be the seat of consciousness, its biological components do not seem to possess the potential of producing such a quality.


We do have a pretty good idea of how the brain works, chemical combinations and electrical impulses. We know what parts do what, and what will happen if you introduce a variety of different chemicals into the brain (I've personally tested this, many times). 



Kaendar said:


> Is it possible that "consciousness" actualy is a separate entity and has no physical roots? And can it's effect on humans be taken as proof that such an entity exists? "Black holes," despite the fact that they cannot be directly detected, are universally accepted as science.



I don't see how consciousness could be anything but something physical inside the brain. "Consciousness" still hasn't been clearly defined, so it's an ambiguous question to begin with. 

Black holes _can be_ directly observed and measured. 



Kaendar said:


> A black hole in astronomy is a celestial object of such extremely intense gravity that it attracts everything near it and prevents even light from escaping. Because light and other forms of energy and matter are permanently trapped inside a black hole, it can never be observed directly. It can only be detected by the effect of its gravitational field on nearby objects. Yet, as undetectable as they are, black holes are considered as real and as scientific as planets and stars.


Detecting an object in space by observing it's gravitational effects is direct observation. Visual observation is not the only way to directly detect something. 



Kaendar said:


> In the same way, consciousness can be "proven" to have its own existence by the effect it has on humans, giving them qualities such as reasoning abilities, appreciation of art, humor, etc. Unlike a black hole, however, since we cannot prove the existence of any physical substance or process that can produce such features, consciousness takes on a unique existence -- an effect without a physical origin. Call it what you will, but this precisely coincides with the age-old concept of a "soul."


I'll refer you back to my earlier point, what about severely handicapped humans who don't meet your standards for 'consciousness' (still undefined) or highly intelligent animals that do? Do those humans not have souls? Did God pass out animal souls, too? 



Kaendar said:


> I realize that a soul in itself may not be a scientific concept. But when you can prove its features and qualities as surely as you can prove a black hole's effect on its environment, you have effectively proven its existence. Unlike a black hole, it's origin does not appear to be physical, but, very much like a black hole, it definitely reveals itself within its environment.


The black hole analogy has false premises, as does your soul theory. 



Kaendar said:


> Unscientific, at this point, would be to deny that an entity exists that gives human beings their unique intellectual features. There is no question that it exists. The only question is, what do you call it? If "soul" is to religious sounding for you, call it what you will, but there is definitely something at work here that is not of a physical nature.


I disagree and you've failed to present any convincing evidence to support your theory.



Kaendar said:


> If you don't believe a "soul" has been proven here, you may want to start questioning things like black holes. Nobody will prove them to you any better.


Tell me, why does your standard for proof consist of only visual confirmation? Using that same logic, oxygen, electrons, pressure, literally a million different things don't exist either. We can directly observe the effects of a black hole, we are as scientifically certain as is currently possible that they exist. As for souls, you are debating their existence with a dude on a cannabis forum, what does that tell you?


----------



## Moebius (Jun 19, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> I believe a more accurate analogy would be "table > wood" "human > water/muscle/bone, etc." as wood is what a table is made _of. _Or maybe "table > plant" "human > animal". Phylogenetics deals with classifying organisms into which respective kingdoms of life.


'Accuracy' is the one thing were debating here. ... 
we could just as easily classify life as Human/Non Human. Animals would fall into the later.

Humans perceive their death, they transcends the evolutionary struggle that has taken place over a millions of years. We alone, are not passive subject or slave to our DNA. We shape our world and universe like none other.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 19, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> Most things that are done in the name of religion and not truly because of religion, people once upon a time couldn't really read and they relied on the teachers of religion to give them the truth of the religion, which even to this day does not happen in most churches I have been to and I'm assuming it is the same in some synagogues and mosques etc... preachers twist words to suit their own ideals and influence people that are gullible... Corrupt people have risen to power the world over all through history regardless of religion or not, and people have gone to war all over the world for no religious reasons what so ever...


Well what's their excuse today? Literacy rates are much higher than in most of human history. 

To be honest with you, why should it matter to me how or why it happened the way it did? Do you think I should be sympathetic to that argument and say "well they just got conned... it could happen to anyone.."? Do you believe that justifies all the atrocities because of religion? I don't believe you do, so I might be misunderstanding your point.. 

I think it's every single individuals responsibility to meet a certain set of standards to live among society for that society to succeed, and allowing yourself to be conned into such things is a failure on the individuals part.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

Nice debating, im shattered. peace. and dont forget to say your prayers at night. lol


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> 'Accuracy' is the one thing were debating here. ...
> we could just as easily classify life as Human/Non Human. Animals would fall into the later.
> 
> Humans perceive their death, they transcends the evolutionary struggle that has taken place over a millions of years. We alone, are not passive subject or slave to our DNA. We shape our world and universe like none other.


I disagree, phylogenetics is an actual science that deals with such classifications, but we can move past that for now, but the one thing you must accept is that's simply what we are defined as in biology, you wouldn't introduce us as a plant or a fungus, right? 

How can you be certain some animal species don't perceive death? 

Our spot on the food chain is the result of billions of years of successful mutations leading to the most advantageous anatomical and physiological structures (comparatively speaking), namely intelligence, and shit loads of luck. 

Also a result of our circumstances. 65 million years ago, I'm sure the dinosaurs were saying the same thing.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

To Padawan: Im not saying there has to be visual confirmation. Like I said before, we have been able to prove what parts of the brain make "invisible" things happen in our mind and body. No part of the brain or its actions have been attributed to some uniquely human traits that support the notion that we have a soul.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 20, 2012)

All I was saying and am saying is that people can hypothesize all they want about how the world may possibly have turned out without it, but you can't say one way or the other with any sort of accuracy that the world is better off because of religion or worse off because of it...

Edit...

I don't believe in whole sale slaughtering people for any reason, witch trials, racial prejudice, Killing people for their resources (unless you actually have no other choice)

Religion is my most hated excuse for war, it is a piss poor excuse to kill people...

Edit... Edit...

My invisible being is bigger and stronger than your invisible being, only he speaks the truth and he chose us to deliver his word to...

No our invisible being is bigger and stronger than yours, only he speaks the truth and he chose us to deliver his word to... you must die for your blasphemy...

If you look in the Bible most of the time when "God" is sending his people off to war it is to murder and plunder... more specifically to take what the other person has but doesn't want to give you... It has always been about much less than religion...


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> To Padawan: Im not saying there has to be visual confirmation. Like I said before, we have been able to prove what parts of the brain make "invisible" things happen in our mind and body. No part of the brain or its actions have been attributed to some uniquely human traits that support the notion that we have a soul.


You know they found a gene that determines psychopathy... and impaired brain functions also... would Psychopaths be people you consider to have a dark or twisted soul..? cause it boils down to genetics...


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> To Padawan: Im not saying there has to be visual confirmation. Like I said before, we have been able to prove what parts of the brain make "invisible" things happen in our mind and body. No part of the brain or its actions have been attributed to some uniquely human traits that support the notion that we have a soul.


What about all the other points?


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Yes, humans arent better than animals, but we are more than them. Our life goes beyond the physical realm here on this earth. A part of us was here before and will be when it ends. Animals on the other hand, die and decompose and continue on in the cycle of life.


Says who, the bible?


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 20, 2012)

The bible clearly states that nobody knows if animals have souls or not... King Solomon the wise said that and anybody that displays such overt signs of Christian faith as Kaendar should have seen that in the bible if he has read more than just the beginning of Genesis...


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

...curious to know the perspectives of Doer and Dr. J here  (...and a host of others, as well)


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 20, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> But agnostics don't believe in a god or diety right? So by definition, couldn't an agnostic be an atheist?
> And I may just be too confused, but a religious person could also be agnostic right?
> 
> I like this thread.. weird.


You are correct. But just because atheism fits doesn't mean the person wants to use it as their title. Atheism is a term of ambiguity, some choose to be more precise.

Atheism tells you what, it does not tell you why. I think most of us would agree the why is very important information, but historically to the theist, the why is not important. All that is important is the rejection, it must be changed no matter the why. So the non-believer is labeled athiest and that's the end of it. Obviously atheism is a position that can be reached by many paths, yet when is the last time you heard any religion distinguish among atheists?

I label myself a rational skeptic, the atheism is axiomatically implied.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> You are correct. But just because atheism fits doesn't mean the person wants to use it as their title. Atheism is a term of ambiguity, some choose to be more precise.
> 
> I label myself a rational skeptic, the atheism is axiomatically implied.


...in discussion we use terms like "religious" and "atheist" as terms to encompass a concept. If the word was 'potato', some people would be scared of it. All that we fear does the same thing, it gets bunched into the various levels of conscious mind. I think it is a mechanism we all have. When you look at 'axiomatically applied' it may look less like an action statement. It happens at levels below the surface.

...so, when you (yourself) say rational skeptic, is that on the fringe of agnostic?


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 20, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...in discussion we use terms like "religious" and "atheist" as terms to encompass a concept. If the word was 'potato', some people would be scarred of it. All that we fear does the same thing, it gets bunched into the various levels of conscious mind. I think it is a mechanism we all have. When you look at 'axiomatically applied' it may look less like an action statement. It happens at levels below the surface.


Sure and this could be another reason why Hep finds the terms to be a little confusing. In these threads, we often use them as shortcuts without having to constantly add the qualifiers and disclaimers, but when you are pondering the proper use of the terms as a title, as Hep is, it helps to keep the perspective in mind. 



> ...so, when you (yourself) say rational skeptic, is that on the fringe of agnostic?


Agnosticism is an opinion about knowledge, so it is individually applied to specific areas of knowledge, traditionally theism. 

Skepticism is a process to judge truth value of any knowledge. It can only be applied after the question of agnosticism is answered. If we do not, or can not, know a subject, then there is nothing to be skeptical of. So skepticism is not on the fringes of agnosticism, it is beyond it, post facto.

So I can not be skeptical of theism unless I agree that the knowledge is knowable. But, as you say, these concepts exists in different levels of the mind. If you take agnosticism out to it's extreme, then I am agnostic. Although I believe theism as expressed in religious forms is knowable and therefore subject to skepticism, I also acknowledge that it is possible, if God is all powerful, he could exist in such a way as to be unknowable. In this case skepticism becomes as useless as religion, because something unknowable to that extreme is also negligible. That is where the rational part comes in. If it does not interact with reality in any way, then it is not worthy of efforts to understand.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Sure and this could be another reason why Hep finds the terms to be a little confusing. In these threads, we often use them as shortcuts without having to constantly add the qualifiers and disclaimers, but when you are pondering the proper use of the terms as a title, as Hep is, it helps to keep the perspective in mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...well written, thanks. I'm going to let this one 'cook' for a while.

...in the meantime:


----------



## Dislexicmidget2021 (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Do humans acquire a soul at the moment of conception, or birth? Or sometime between then? Or when? Im conflicted by this question all the time.




When you are told that you have a soul and you actualy believe it...yet it still dosent merrit any truth anywhere outside of the persons/believers subjectivity.


----------



## Dislexicmidget2021 (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> The reality of nature is ......... Death




i like your quote,but i prefer the reality of nature is life and the nature of reality is change.IMO


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

Dislexicmidget2021 said:


> When you are told that you have a soul and you actualy believe it...yet it still dosent merrit any truth anywhere outside of the persons/believers subjectivity.


...doesn't it light up a person's life - against a 'dark matter' kind of background? Our brains are the sun, symbolically seen, as per the stories of 'visions' in the books of the bible. It 'looks out' and spreads light, which to me is one part of our cognition (male). But, it has a feminine 'receptive' quality at the same time, in that it takes in focused energy and plays it back as 'free-ality' (female).


----------



## Dislexicmidget2021 (Jun 20, 2012)

Eye you have an interesting way of describing what a soul would be,It still seems more so a subjective description,but I wont judge it as invalid.I Just cant say that I would know.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

Dislexicmidget2021 said:


> Eye you have an interesting way of describing what a soul would be,It still seems more so a subjective description,but I wont judge it as invalid.I Just cant say that I would know.


...thanks, that's more than fair.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...curious to know the perspectives of doer and dr. J here  (...and a host of others, as well)


aka shut the fuck up shannon


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> You do know the 5%'ers are supremely racists. They believe white people were made by an evil black scientist called 'Yacoob'.


no black muslims think that idiot


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> aka shut the fuck up shannon


...erm, don't think so. No offense


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

thats what i was thinking hahahaha ^^^


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

i understood what you were saying last night Eye, the people on here debating last night just couldnt figure out what they believed and were more focused on the arguing part of it. the same people were arguing opposite points, people who were qouting the bible were then hating on it, it was a very sad mash up of attempted smart shit, but really it just came out leaving the poeple with the biggest meanest mouths winning and the people who wouldnt shit on their own beliefs 2 argue like an animal left out and made fun of.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

it was like watching a bunch of politicians trying 2 explain somthing, everyone was just taking their view and trying 2 smash it into other peoples heads w as much force as possible, this completely resembled a political debate and looked nothing like what it was spossed 2, a group of marijuana growers n smokers discussing their beliefs in any kind of manner, instead it just turned into fire n brimstone hating hahahahaha.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> it was like watching a bunch of politicians trying 2 explain somthing, everyone was just taking their view and trying 2 smash it into other peoples heads w as much force as possible, this completely resembled a political debate and looked nothing like what it was spossed 2, *a group of marijuana growers n smokers discussing their beliefs in any kind of manner*, instead it just turned into fire n brimstone hating hahahahaha.



...I have to give you that. The debate can be a heated one, and can veer off course at times.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...I have to give you that. The debate can be a heated one, and can neer off course at times.


Guilty as charged! cn


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Guilty as charged! cn



...hehe - the bipolar express


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

the whole thing went off course, the title was "when do you get a soul" and i got hated on 4 bringing up the mere idea of "souls" hahahaha like this was not even a religious debate, it was spossed 2 be a spiritual one, but instead they were arguing over their religious beliefs and the meaning of "spiritual" like what the fuck is that going 2 change? this should be titled "debate on anything you feel like from a Christian point of view" hahahaha peace pigs (you know who the pigs are)


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> the whole thing went off course, the title was "when do you get a soul" and i got hated on 4 bringing up the mere idea of "souls" hahahaha like this was not even a religious debate, it was spossed 2 be a spiritual one, but instead they were arguing over their religious beliefs and the meaning of "spiritual" like what the fuck is that going 2 change? this should be titled "debate on anything you feel like from a Christian point of view" hahahaha peace pigs (you know who the pigs are)


Why would I be constrained to the Christian point of view? That's a mite bigoted. 
(And I see that my sound, sincere advice about proper parts of speech received contempt.) cn


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

1st off take that biggot word you all keep saying 2wards everyone and shove it you know where. not agreeing with you doesnt make me a biggot. by Christian point of view i dont just mean like biblical, i mean worded even from a Christian oriented state of mind, like they were all speaking of both christian and scientific beliefs but they were looking at everything from a Christian point of view whether they realize it or not. and actually you wernt one of the people doing it Cannabineer. kaendar, Shannon, and Moebius and a couple others are definetly the biggots.


----------



## Nice Ol Bud (Jun 20, 2012)

Is to say that Ants have no soul because their lack of emotion?

That's unrighteous.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

im fereal done with this page now that ive said my piece. pull your head out of your asses, maybe if you started looking at things from a non-biased point of view you might actually get somewhere someday.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> 1st off take that biggot word you all keep saying 2wards everyone and shove it you know where. not agreeing with you doesnt make me a biggot. by Christian point of view i dont just mean like biblical, i mean worded even from a Christian oriented state of mind, like they were all speaking of both christian and scientific beliefs but they were looking at everything from a Christian point of view whether they realize it or not. and actually you wernt one of the people doing it Cannabineer. kaendar, Shannon, and Moebius and a couple others are definetly the biggots.


But I consider requiring a Christian point of mind to be bigoted. As if my viewpoint were ... lesser. Unfortunate. Wrong, even. I stand by the charge of bigotry. cn


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

dude do you not understand its the Christian point of view that im bitching about? are you arguing or agreeing with me?


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

argument for the sake of argument thats waht this thread should have been called.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> dude do you not understand its the Christian point of view that im bitching about? are you arguing or agreeing with me?


All of a sudden I'm not sure. cn


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

if you cant understand what im saying still than i dont know what 2 say cuz your completely taking what im saying and getting the complete OPPOSITE of what im tryn 2 say out of it.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> if you cant understand what im saying still than i dont know what 2 say cuz your completely taking what im saying and getting the complete OPPOSITE of what im tryn 2 say out of it.


Okay. In my defense, I would ask you again to PLEASE use English and not Txt. I had to re-read the post in question four (4) times to determine that I'd jumped to the wrong conclusion. Form counts. cn


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

im saying people even self proclaimed "atheists" still look at shit from the Christian point of view they were raised in. the normal line of thought and reasoning for most white americans comes from a Christian set of principle whether or not they go 2 church. and im saying that Christian viewpoint they are coming from, whether or not theyre actually arguing christianity they are always arguing from its point of view and its wrong thats what im saying.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> if you cant understand what im saying still than i dont know what 2 say cuz your completely taking what im saying and getting the complete OPPOSITE of what im tryn 2 say out of it.


...dude, neer is one of the most level-headed people here. Maybe relax a bit because that's part of the whole 'stoners having mutual discussion theme' you are fighting for.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

like the ideas of right and wrong, killing being wrong, all that kinda stuff is all Christian principles. do you think animals feel bad when they kill? fuck no


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> like the ideas of right and wrong, killing being wrong, all that kinda stuff is all Christian principles. do you think animals feel bad when they kill? fuck no



...the christian perspective is to transcend the animal nature - n'est pas? ...just like the rest of the world.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

Okay then. Mind the step - first one's a doozy. cn


----------



## Nice Ol Bud (Jun 20, 2012)




----------



## Nice Ol Bud (Jun 20, 2012)

[video=youtube;vx4IEmZNegg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx4IEmZNegg[/video]

BALL IN A CUP! <3


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

for somone who doesnt understand the difference between the numerical number 2 and the word two, you sure do have alot of men chasing after you Canna hehe you must be doing somthing right.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> View attachment 2220706 for somone who doesnt understand the difference between the numerical number 2 and the word two, you sure do have alot of men chasing after you Canna hehe you must be doing somthing right.


...can you make me one of those with these names on it?

Hep
Doer
GWN
WW
Heis
Carne
Dr. J
Blazin
Tyler
A bunch more people in T&T
Ahhhh fck it, the list is extensive


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> There is still so much debate because stubborn people refuse to believe its true. When proof smacks them in the face they try to pull out science, which smacks them again becuase science just proves that shit is possible.


This simply isn't true!

The vast majority of atheists I know WANT to be wrong where this is concerned. Who wouldn't want to be reunited with friends and loved ones, and spend eternity frolicking in some meadow like we were part of a Snuggle fabric softener add?

This isn't about being "stubborn", and ignoring evidence that smacks us in the face. This is about applying logic and common sense.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> if you cant understand what im saying still than i dont know what 2 say cuz your completely taking what im saying and getting the complete OPPOSITE of what im tryn 2 say out of it.


Dude ur shit makes no sense. I have to re read everything you post on here. Not only is it illegible but what you have to say doesnt really relate to anything. Im guessing your probably like 17 and think you know everything. Wait til you grow up and reality smacks you in the face.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

st0wandgrow said:


> This simply isn't true!
> 
> The vast majority of atheists I know WANT to be wrong where this is concerned. Who wouldn't want to be reunited with friends and loved ones, and spend eternity frolicking in some meadow like we were part of a Snuggle fabric softener add?
> 
> This isn't about being "stubborn", and ignoring evidence that smacks us in the face. This is about applying logic and common sense.


As you can see, atheists are only looking for a specific kind of evidence. They automatically rule out everything that isnt tangible in a scientific point of view. I offered many people lots of different and very obvious evidence, but no, they blew it off as heresay and manipulated testimonies. The problem with alot of atheists is that they dont understand spirituality, religion, and life beyond the physical, so rather than deal with that problem they automatically say it doesnt exist.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Yes animals experience thought and emotion, but they dont know good and evil. Everything is put on this earth to support humans. Trees, plants, water, weather, animals, etc. And im not christian. Im not any religion.


I've said this before, and I'll say it again ....

This mindset is what makes the belief in a god dangerous. The notion that we as humans own this planet, and it is ours to consume, destroy, and burn as we see fit blows me away. What a fucking egotistical mind set! We have evolved as a species beyond what our fellow inhabitants have, but by no means do we have any more right to the earths resources than any other living creature.

If there is a god, don't you feel that he/she/it would want us to be good stewards of the planet that he/she/it created?


----------



## Doer (Jun 20, 2012)

To me the real question is, how did "soul" "consciousness" "Self" get a meat robot to ride.


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

hahaha i didnt make the picture i just drew the words on there.


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> As you can see, atheists are only looking for a specific kind of evidence. They automatically rule out everything that isnt tangible in a scientific point of view. I offered many people lots of different and very obvious evidence, but no, they blew it off as heresay and manipulated testimonies.


This standard of evidence you are attacking is universal to scientific, academic and legal investigation. It is not unique to atheists. If your mother was being accused of murder and looking at prison or execution, I imagine you would want more than anecdotal evidence to draw a conclusion. The reasons you would list as why anecdotal testimony is not enough to convict your mother are the same reasons it's being rejected here. 

The answers provided can only be as good as the process which produces them. There is nothing wrong with being careful and exclusive when it comes to judging truth value.





> The problem with alot of atheists is that they dont understand spirituality, religion, and life beyond the physical, so rather than deal with that problem they automatically say it doesnt exist.


So only those who believe are capable of belief? Seems rather circular and useless. If I was as unconcerned with fairness and accuracy as you I could easily say that the problem with spiritual people is that they can't accept a life where nothing is beyond the physical so rather than deal with it they insist there is.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

st0wandgrow said:


> I've said this before, and I'll say it again ....
> 
> This mindset is what makes the belief in a god dangerous. The notion that we as humans own this planet, and it is ours to consume, destroy, and burn as we see fit blows me away. What a fucking egotistical mind set!


...you're totally right, but what if that planet is you? You are free to do all of those things to your own planet (earth / body) you described, yes? But, would all things be wise?


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

[video=youtube;O8OY1N_b7qY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8OY1N_b7qY[/video]

...........


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Dude ur shit makes no sense. I have to re read everything you post on here. Not only is it illegible but what you have to say doesnt really relate to anything. Im guessing your probably like 17 and think you know everything. Wait til you grow up and reality smacks you in the face.


kaendar if your opinions contradict each other 1 more time your brain is likely to start shorting out. sorry that i dont feel the need 2 type out my every belief on here like you........i wonder why that is? hahahahaha


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> This standard of evidence you are attacking is universal to scientific, academic and legal investigation. It is not unique to atheists. If your mother was being accused of murder and looking at prison or execution, I imagine you would want more than anecdotal evidence to draw a conclusion. The reasons you would list as why anecdotal testimony is not enough to convict your mother are the same reasons it's being rejected here.
> 
> The answers provided can only be as good as the process which produces them. There is nothing wrong with being careful and exclusive when it comes to judging truth value.
> 
> ...


The only reason that people believe there is a life beyond the physical is because over the history of man, god has made himself known to us many times. If we never had a reason to then im sure we would all be atheists. Im a person of reason and rationality. I understand not wanting to believe in something when you feel there is no proof of it existing, I struggled through that alot in life. But everytime im doubting it I see a bunch of stuff that shows me otherwise. I mean the most recent stuff is that everything that was predicted in the bible is coming true. For the longest time I was one of those dumbasses that thought the world was gonna end December 21st of this year. That shit gave me severe anxiety and I almost lost faith because in the bible it describes the end times and this didnt match that. But over time I see bible predictions coming true. Everything said in the Book of Revelations is going down right now literally word for word. Its no coincidence. So now I know the world isnt gonna end this year.. 

For me personally, theres too much evidence that proves that something beyond us exists. And when people try to argue it with science all I see is more evidence.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

...well this is turning out to be one of forumdom's greatest achievements. Let's not get this thread taken down, eh?


----------



## DirtyGloveLuv (Jun 20, 2012)

seriously im just in awe right now that this guy throwing up swastikas claims to grow and/or smoke weed and talk about spirituality? wow the hypocrisy shows no bounds with some people i guess.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

...and there it goes.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

Lynch mob at Nice Ol Buds place? RSVP on Facebook plz.


----------



## Nice Ol Bud (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Lynch mob at Nice Ol Buds place? RSVP on Facebook plz.


I got some nice trees for y'all!
YEEE HAW!!!!!


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

He crossed the line. I reported his shit.


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> The only reason that people believe there is a life beyond the physical is because over the history of man, god has made himself known to us many times. If we never had a reason to then im sure we would all be atheists. Im a person of reason and rationality. I understand not wanting to believe in something when you feel there is no proof of it existing, I struggled through that alot in life. But everytime im doubting it I see a bunch of stuff that shows me otherwise. I mean the most recent stuff is that everything that was predicted in the bible is coming true. For the longest time I was one of those dumbasses that thought the world was gonna end December 21st of this year. That shit gave me severe anxiety and I almost lost faith because in the bible it describes the end times and this didnt match that. But over time I see bible predictions coming true. Everything said in the Book of Revelations is going down right now literally word for word. Its no coincidence. So now I know the world isnt gonna end this year..


If this were 1986, or any other random year, you would have very similar global events to point to in which to claim the bible is coming true. Unless you can tell me you understand confirmation bias, then you really haven't investigated anything other than your own opinion.



> For me personally, theres too much evidence that proves that something beyond us exists. And when people try to argue it with science all I see is more evidence.


I don't have much problem with what you consider personally, as it is your prerogative. But quite frankly, you have shown that you are very under-educated about these subjects. By that, I mean, you do not even seem to understand some of the terms you use or the concepts they apply to. Science, as a process, is of the same opinion as skeptical atheism. Which is to say, there could be a god but there is no reason to think so, baring future evidence. What I am saying is, it seems to me by the words you present here, that you perceive science as backing up religion because you do not understand what science is.

Science is a process, nothing more. Science and religion have similarities, they both attempt to offer answers and understanding of our world and our place in it, but they are not similar in their process. Most of the steps involved in religious reasoning is directly opposed to the principals science holds, and most of the answers science gives us are at odds with the answers religion gives us. To claim otherwise requires a sheltered, uninterested sort of view. 

Science is a systematic and careful way of observing nature while using consistent logic to evaluate the results. Where is the fault in that?


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 20, 2012)

Nice Ol Bud, DirtyGloveLuv, grow up, you guys are both about to get this thread closed. Neither of you have won anything, you've both trolled each other past composure, I'm not impressed.

Take your pissing contest to PM


----------



## Dislexicmidget2021 (Jun 20, 2012)

wtf is with these guys?There wasnt a single post by those people that i could say had any value or insight whatsoever...


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

We have two people sabotaging this thread ... One can only sit back and wonder.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> If this were 1986, or any other random year, you would have very similar global events to point to in which to claim the bible is coming true. Unless you can tell me you understand confirmation bias, then you really haven't investigated anything other than your own opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm.. the one major thing for me is the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem. Thats fingerprints and DNA at the scene of the crime. It cant get more black and white. The bible predicted that they will rebuild the temple again and guess whats happening.. 

And I dont think you are fully understanding what I mean when I say religion and science support eachother. Im not saying they are similar in process, im saying they answer eachothers questions. Science proves what is often thrown away as crazy testimony. Miracles.. tumors disappearing and the paralyzed walking.. before science proved it possible, you could really only say it happened or its a lie. Now we have proof that its possible.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Hmm.. the one major thing for me is the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem. Thats fingerprints and DNA at the scene of the crime. It cant get more black and white. The bible predicted that they will rebuild the temple again and guess whats happening..
> 
> And I dont think you are fully understanding what I mean when I say religion and science support eachother. Im not saying they are similar in process, im saying they answer eachothers questions. Science proves what is often thrown away as crazy testimony. Miracles.. tumors disappearing and the paralyzed walking.. before science proved it possible, you could really only say it happened or its a lie. Now we have proof that its possible.


The idea of prophecy is completely irrational. A group of people write something down, then hundreds or thousands of years later, those following the religion make said 'prophecy' happen? How is that in the least bit divine? What's to stop me from writing something down today, then hundreds of years later, a group of people read it and make it happen? Would they fulfill my prophecy, too? 

God of the gaps. Science can't answer it - GOD!


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 20, 2012)

Go read the site rules, if somebody says something offensive to you about anything, talk to the moderator of the subforum about it. Don't continue to post personal attacks, all that will do is waste your time posting it and my time deleting it. 

And show a little class next time. Both of you.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> View attachment 2220706 for somone who doesnt understand the difference between the numerical number 2 and the word two, you sure do have alot of men chasing after you Canna hehe you must be doing somthing right.


I have no trouble with 2 as a stand-in for "two". But that is not how you were using it. It is an inelegant shorthand for "to", and in my personal subjective opinion: like nails on a blackboard. So the measure of your consideration is for you to know this, and yet to proceed in your customary way. Jmo.

Nice nut. But why do you have me as the top? cn


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> As you can see, atheists are only looking for a specific kind of evidence. They automatically rule out everything that isnt tangible in a scientific point of view. I offered many people lots of different and very obvious evidence, but no, they blew it off as heresay and manipulated testimonies. The problem with alot of atheists is that they dont understand spirituality, religion, and life beyond the physical, so rather than deal with that problem they automatically say it doesnt exist.


You did not. You offered testimony, which does not qualify as evidence.

I do not require that counterevidence be necessarily scientific. But I do expect that it be sensible, in the meaning that it can be sensed and perhaps recorded. The subjective factor needs to be contained. other wise, all you have is ... testimony. 
I, for one, am not so arrogant as to say none of it exists. I will say however that I'd rather not have a sense of intellectual hygiene be portrayed as arrogance. I'll gladly embrace its existence, but the evidence for it would have to be of a sort that withstands challenge. Testimony doesn't do that; it's too subjective - worse, it becomes embroiled in questions of personal trust and honor. Remember: rejecting your testimony is NOT a smear on your person. cn


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> The idea of prophecy is completely irrational. A group of people write something down, then hundreds or thousands of years later, those following the religion make said 'prophecy' happen? How is that in the least bit divine? What's to stop me from writing something down today, then hundreds of years later, a group of people read it and make it happen? Would they fulfill my prophecy, too?
> 
> God of the gaps. Science can't answer it - GOD!


What you just described is not prophecy.. but if thats what you think it is then im sure you wouldnt believe it.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> You did not. You offered testimony, which does not qualify as evidence.
> 
> I do not require that counterevidence be necessarily scientific. But I do expect that it be sensible, in the meaning that it can be sensed and perhaps recorded. The subjective factor needs to be contained. other wise, all you have is ... testimony.
> I, for one, am not so arrogant as to say none of it exists. I will say however that I'd rather not have a sense of intellectual hygiene be portrayed as arrogance. I'll gladly embrace its existence, but the evidence for it would have to be of a sort that withstands challenge. Testimony doesn't do that; it's too subjective - worse, it becomes embroiled in questions of personal trust and honor. Remember: rejecting your testimony is NOT a smear on your person. cn


I know cn, I wasnt talking about you. Your really respectful. What do you make of the thousands of widely available videos of supernatural occurrences? Surely that good enough and obviously recorded evidence? Some good video made by people with degrees in investigating that sort of thing.. scientists.


----------



## missnu (Jun 20, 2012)

What is a soul precisely? Higher thought, your conscience? Inner thoughts?


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> What you just described is not prophecy.. but if thats what you think it is then im sure you wouldnt believe it.


What is prophecy?

Define it


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 20, 2012)

missnu said:


> What is a soul precisely? Higher thought, your conscience? Inner thoughts?


That's what the first 16-18 pages were trying to get at... 

As far as I can tell, it's an ambiguous term used to describe higher levels of consciousness, though I posted two examples of why that doesn't make sense, both were never responded to, so that's pretty much where we're at..

Souls are whatever religious people want them to be. Something is needed to carry on consciousness when we die, and since science tells us that everything material about what and who we are gets recycled back into nature after we die, it must be something _immaterial_... And thus, the soul was born.


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Hmm.. the one major thing for me is the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem. Thats fingerprints and DNA at the scene of the crime. It cant get more black and white. The bible predicted that they will rebuild the temple again and guess whats happening..


Links? 
The Temple Mount is and has been occupied by a Mosque for quite some time. They don't even allow archaeological excavations there let alone rebuild the Temple.


> And I dont think you are fully understanding what I mean when I say religion and science support eachother. Im not saying they are similar in process, im saying they answer eachothers questions. Science proves what is often thrown away as crazy testimony. Miracles.. tumors disappearing and the paralyzed walking.. before science proved it possible, you could really only say it happened or its a lie. Now we have proof that its possible.


Links again.
Some tumors can spontaneously regress. How do you determine if that was god or a tumor that regressed naturally? 
I have seen zero evidence that anyone that has been paralyzed getting up and walking without medical devices. It sounds like you have been taken in by faith healers and revivals where the placebo effect and outright fraud is used. Look up Peter Popoff. Every time people have investigated miraculous healing, the evidence has come up short. I have citations and literature to support this, do you have anything to support your claims?


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I know cn, I wasnt talking about you. Your really respectful. What do you make of the thousands of widely available videos of supernatural occurrences? Surely that good enough and obviously recorded evidence? Some good video made by people with degrees in investigating that sort of thing.. scientists.


I have not yet seen a video that withstands challenge. Video and digital photos are not reliable imo. 
Actual scientists would use equipment that would meet the authenticity challenge. I don't mean "only official, accredited get to play" when I say scientists, but rather people who understand systematic error and how to contain it. That's one of my markers for science vs. parlor games. cn


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I have not yet seen a video that withstands challenge. Video and digital photos are not reliable imo.
> Actual scientists would use equipment that would meet the authenticity challenge. I don't mean "only official, accredited get to play" when I say scientists, but rather people who understand systematic error and how to contain it. That's one of my markers for science vs. parlor games. cn


You forget the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal which states that on a quantum level particles and waves seem to break the laws of 'causality'.

Once the principal of cause and effect breaks down it calls into question everything we know about matter, reality and science.

The hubris of many of these so-called 'rationalists' or 'atheists' is quite humorous. They are as zealous as the some of the religious ideas they despise. Both have cornered themselves into an intellectual cull-de-sac because they label themselves then construct their argument to fit the established idea.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

[video=youtube;KT7xJ0tjB4A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT7xJ0tjB4A[/video]


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> You forget the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal which states that on a quantum level particles and waves seem to break the laws of 'causality'.
> 
> Once the principal of cause and effect breaks down it calls into question everything we know about matter, reality and science.
> 
> The hubris of many of these so-called 'rationalists' or 'atheists' is quite humorous. They are as zealous as the some of the religious ideas they despise. Both have cornered themselves into an intellectual cull-de-sac because they label themselves then construct their argument to fit the established idea.


The thing about Heisenberg's Principle is that it sets a maximum dimension for the uncertainty that is approx. atomic in scale. The quantity h is tiny. Imo extending the Uncertainty Principle into the macroscopic does not work. There are too many metaphysicians out there today (imo) who hide behind an incomplete comprehension of uncertainty and quantum mechanics. cn


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> The thing about Heisenberg's Principle is that it sets a maximum dimension for the uncertainty that is approx. atomic in scale. The quantity h is tiny. Imo extending the Uncertainty Principle into the macroscopic does not work. There are too many metaphysicians out there today (imo) who hide behind an incomplete comprehension of uncertainty and quantum mechanics. cn


In the universe there is no such thing as 'tiny'. Its just a human concept. The concept of Infinity states that something can be infinitely large and infinitely small at the same time, there is no distinction.

Im liking the (imo). ... its you excepting that science doesn't 'know' or cannot explain everything.


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> You forget the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal which states that on a quantum level particles and waves seem to break the laws of 'causality'.
> 
> Once the principal of cause and effect breaks down it calls into question everything we know about matter, reality and science.
> 
> The hubris of many of these so-called 'rationalists' or 'atheists' is quite humorous. They are as zealous as the some of the religious ideas they despise. Both have cornered themselves into an intellectual cull-de-sac because they label themselves then construct their argument to fit the established idea.


Why is it when people attempt to take only the knowledge that we humans have acquired and generally agree is mostly true and apply that knowledge to claims about reality, it is considered hubris, but when people make shit up out of whole cloth and claim that their completely fabricated ideas is some sort of truth, people like you give them a pass?


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Im liking the (imo). ... its you excepting that science doesn't 'know' or cannot explain everything.


Funny thing is, I never see the rationalists on this board ever claim that science knows or can even explain everything. BTW except !=accept.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Why is it when people attempt to take only the knowledge that we humans have acquired and generally agree is mostly true and apply that knowledge to claims about reality, it is considered hubris, but when people make shit up out of whole cloth and claim that their completely fabricated ideas is some sort of truth, people like you give them a pass?


I say that anyone who states 'there is no GOD' and attempts to explain it with scientific principals that themselves break down on the quantum scale is hubristic.

hubris being 'arrogant'.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Funny thing is, I never see the rationalists on this board ever claim that science knows or can even explain everything. BTW except !=accept.


My bad ..I was actually devoting the part of my brain that deals with semantics to constructing a credible argument. Bravo for being such a pedant.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> I say that anyone who states 'there is no GOD' and attempts to explain it with scientific principals that themselves break down on the quantum scale is hubristic.
> 
> hubris being 'arrogant'.


Hubris is more than mere arrogance. Iirc it was arrogance before the gods, essentially being "uppity" in terms of man's rightful place in creation. The problem is that for very many who believe/submit to religious doctrine, what many unbelievers view as simple self-empowerment becomes seen as hubris. 

I view an attempt to leverage science into a rational basis for antitheism to be more of a statement about the claimant's carelessness than an indictment of either science or theism. cn


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> I say that anyone who states 'there is no GOD' and attempts to explain it with scientific principals that themselves break down on the quantum scale is hubristic.
> 
> hubris being 'arrogant'.


I would probably agree. It is a good thing most rationalists do not make such claims. However, saying it is likely there is no god because there is no evidence for such a being in spite of thousands of years of people attempting to prove otherwise, AND finding natural explanations for the phenomena that people have attributed to a god, is good inductive reasoning. It is the same as the 'no white crows' argument. 

OTOH, you have some descriptions of a god that are logically impossible, and those deities I certainly can state unequivocally they don't exist. It is possible to define a god in a way that is impossible to disprove, Russel's teapot and the FSM are supposed to help demonstrate this idea. It does not however, make them likely to exist.


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> My bad ..I was actually devoting the part of my brain that deals with semantics to constructing a credible argument. Bravo for being such a pedant.


Your bad all around considering your argument was a strawman.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

When we 'ACCEPT' that science doesnt have all the answers we are left with existential philosophies and religions to attempt to answer the ponderables.

For instance, Science can explain the biological mechanisms of DNA or the evolutionary process. Science just hasn't been able to explain the imperative behind this process. It doesn't even begin to try.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> When we 'ACCEPT' that science doesnt have all the answers we are left with existential philosophies and religions to attempt to answer the ponderables.
> 
> For instance, Science can explain the biological mechanisms of DNA or the evolutionary process. Science just hasn't been able to explain the imperative behind this process. It doesn't even begin to try.


It begins to try but isn't there yet (my hope/expectation). We are a very young species.

A book I recommend is "Life Ascending" by Nick Lane. It showed me an eye-opening amount about the steadily advancing state of the investigation into earliest life. cn


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Funny thing is, I never see the rationalists on this board ever claim that science knows or can even explain everything. BTW except !=accept.





mindphuk said:


> I would probably agree. It is a good thing most rationalists do not make such claims. However, saying it is likely there is no god because there is no evidence for such a being in spite of thousands of years of people attempting to prove otherwise, AND finding natural explanations for the phenomena that people have attributed to a god, is good inductive reasoning. It is the same as the 'no white crows' argument.
> 
> OTOH, you have some descriptions of a god that are logically impossible, and those deities I certainly can state unequivocally they don't exist. It is possible to define a god in a way that is impossible to disprove, Russel's teapot and the FSM are supposed to help demonstrate this idea. It does not however, make them likely to exist.


You keep, focusing on the part where I stated the 'rationalists' when I said 'Rationalist' and 'athiests'



Moebius said:


> You forget the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal which states that on a quantum level particles and waves seem to break the laws of 'causality'.
> 
> Once the principal of cause and effect breaks down it calls into question everything we know about matter, reality and science.
> 
> The hubris of many of these so-called *'rationalists' or 'atheists*' is quite humorous. They are as zealous as the some of the religious ideas they despise. Both have cornered themselves into an intellectual cull-de-sac because they label themselves then construct their argument to fit the established idea.


Atheist contend there is no God.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

I also qualified the statement by not saying *ALL *atheists and rationalist, I didnt even say *MOST*, I said *MANY*


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

...maybe a bit off topic, but how does 'science' sit with the idea that observation changes the outcome of experiments (given quantum research)? Was that a bit of a step back? As in..."now what?"

*just an honest question.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

RIU wont allow me to visit the 'last' page.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...maybe a bit off topic, but how does 'science' sit with the idea that observation changes the outcome of experiments (given quantum research)? Was that a bit of a step back? As in..."now what?"
> 
> *just an honest question.


Afaik the observation/outcome thing is also restricted to the very small and fast, like wave/particle diffraction. It's worth remembering that Schrödinger's Cat was a _Gedankenexperiment _and so far not realized on a bench. cn


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> You keep, focusing on the part where I stated the 'rationalists' when I said 'Rationalist' and 'athiests'
> 
> 
> 
> Atheist contend there is no God.


Tiny correction: atheists don't believe there is a god; it's a much softer stance. To believe that there is no god adds positivism to the mix. I got hung up on that one previously as well, and prefer the term "antitheist" for the positivists. Imo they have moved into contrarian dogma upon embracing the positivist bit. cn

<edit> Tyler said it simpler.


----------



## tyler.durden (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Atheist contend there is no God.


This is only a very small subset of atheists that claim there is definitively no god, which requires some faith. Atheists simply do not believe in a god...


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 20, 2012)

There is a huge difference in not believing in god, and knowing there isn't a god. The latter would be put into the same group as the theists, claiming certainty in the absence of it, which is insanity combined with delusion.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> I also qualified the statement by not saying *ALL *atheists and rationalist, I didnt even say *MOST*, I said *MANY*





tyler.durden said:


> This is only a very small subset of atheists that claim there is definitively no god, which requires some faith. Atheists simply do not believe in a god...



Im actually thinking of King Athesist Richard Dawkins and his ilk.... tbh, I specifically had him in mind. but this is a little of what wiki says about it

*Atheism* is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[SUP][[/SUP]

The term _atheism_ originated from the Greek &#7940;&#952;&#949;&#959;&#962; (_atheos_), meaning "without god(s)"


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

When you hear Dawkins speak he contends the belief in a god is utterly absurd and claims there is NO GOD


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

[video=youtube;ZOgTVJOdFVU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOgTVJOdFVU[/video]


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> There is a huge difference in not believing in god, and knowing there isn't a god. The latter would be put into the same group as the theists, claiming certainty in the absence of it, which is insanity combined with delusion.


yes but I said that a few posts ago. and is the thrust of my argument.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> [video=youtube;ZOgTVJOdFVU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOgTVJOdFVU[/video]


I gave that about 0.3 seconds of playtime.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> I gave that about 0.3 seconds of playtime.


The point was ... Dawkins isn't here. I don't think you can have a surrogate argument with him using any of us. cn


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> The point was ... Dawkins isn't here. I don't think you can have a surrogate argument with him using any of us. cn


Well if you scour 'my' posts I construct my arguments without naming anyone. I don't know you well enough to presume you thoughts.
I mention Dawkins now because I feel its relevent, hope that OK.

in an article in 2009 .. Stated ' Why there certainly is NO god' ... I merely mention him because he's probably the most well known atheist.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-dawkins/why-there-almost-certainl_b_32164.html


----------



## tyler.durden (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> When you hear Dawkins speak he contends the belief in a god is utterly absurd and claims there is NO GOD


He does not say this. He rates himself a 6 on a 1-7 scale where 1 is absolute belief in a god, and 7 being absolutely sure there is no god. He does go on to say that he is also a 6 on fairies, gremlins, and gnomes. He knows he can't disprove the existence of any of these...


----------



## tyler.durden (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Well if you scour 'my' posts I construct my arguments without naming anyone. I don't know you well enough to presume you thoughts.
> I mention Dawkins now because I feel its relevent, hope that OK.
> 
> in an article in 2009 .. Stated ' Why there certainly is NO god' ... I merely mention him because he's probably the most well known atheist.
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-dawkins/why-there-almost-certainl_b_32164.html


You misrepresented the title of the article that you posted, didn't think anyone would click on your link?

[h=1]Why There Almost Certainly Is No God[/h]


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> You misrepresented the title of the article that you posted, didn't think anyone would click on your link?
> 
> *Why There Almost Certainly Is No God*


Youre a complete douche .... I put the link there so peeps would click it.

This thread is has got real heavy under the shear weight of pedants and trolls. I'm not arguing because I like arguments. I'm trying to understand what people believe and in turn explore my own thoughts.

If ALL you want to just argue for its own sake go and take that shit elsewhere.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Youre a complete douche .... I put the link there so peeps would click it.
> 
> This thread is has got real heavy under the shear weight of pedants and trolls. I'm not arguing because I like arguments. I'm trying to understand what people believe and in turn explore my own thoughts.
> 
> If ALL you want to just argue for its own sake go and take that shit elsewhere.


Pointing out a random grammatical or spelling mistake is pedantry.
Pointing out an incorrectness is not pedantry, but simple rational hygiene. My opinion. 

I was unable to find the positive statement which you accused Dawkins of making in the article you linked. Is saying so pedantry? If you continue to believe so, we disagree. cn


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Pointing out a random grammatical or spelling mistake is pedantry.
> Pointing out an incorrectness is not pedantry, but simple rational hygiene. My opinion.
> 
> I was unable to find the positive statement which you accused Dawkins of making in the article you linked. Is saying so pedantry? If you continue to believe so, we disagree. cn


I was referring to accusing me of intentionally posting a link and misrepresenting it because I didnt think it would be clicked.

IMO ... The constant nickpicking equates to trolling.


----------



## tyler.durden (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Youre a complete douche .... I put the link there so peeps would click it.
> 
> This thread is has got real heavy under the shear weight of pedants and trolls. I'm not arguing because I like arguments. I'm trying to understand what people believe and in turn explore my own thoughts.
> 
> If ALL you want to just argue for its own sake go and take that shit elsewhere.


I'm only pointing out errors, which is what I expect from others when I post here. You may want to admit when you make an error, or people may think that you're intentionally deceptive. Of all the words you could have left out of the article's title, you just happened to leave out the all important, 'Almost', which if left in proved my point, not yours. If you really want to explore your own thoughts, you may want to drop the pretense and be more honest...


----------



## Moebius (Jun 20, 2012)

If I error, correct me by all means. Accusing me of intentionally misrepresenting a position is'nt helping move the debate on..

Anyways, Ive nothing to add atm. Time to water hempy's.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> I was referring to accusing me of intentionally posting a link and misrepresenting it because I didnt think it would be clicked.
> 
> IMO ... The constant nickpicking equates to trolling.


I disagree, that's not a minor point... 

It relies on the premise that Dawkins claims absolute certainty no God exists, when he doesn't. 

I don't think that's nitpicking, but it doesn't really matter. The point is, most rational people, skeptics, don't claim any kind of 'absolute certainty' because they know it's an irrational stance to take.


----------



## tyler.durden (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> If I error, correct me by all means. Accusing me of intentionally misrepresenting a position is'nt helping move the debate on..
> 
> Anyways, Ive nothing to add atm. Time to water hempy's.


Cool. You haven't yet admitted your errors, btw...


----------



## missnu (Jun 20, 2012)

I've got soul, and I'm super bad! Watch me Now! I got it!


----------



## missnu (Jun 20, 2012)

You guys really do find the strangest things to argue about...you can't change anyone's mind about their belief or religion..not without years of violence anyway...and what it the point? Sweet Jesu...


----------



## tyler.durden (Jun 20, 2012)

missnu said:


> You guys really do find the strangest things to argue about...you can't change anyone's mind about their belief or religion..not without years of violence anyway...and what it the point? Sweet Jesu...


We can now definitively say this isn't true, just look at Hep. He's our poster child


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

Join usssss. cn


----------



## Doer (Jun 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> The thing about Heisenberg's Principle is that it sets a maximum dimension for the uncertainty that is approx. atomic in scale. The quantity h is tiny. Imo extending the Uncertainty Principle into the macroscopic does not work. There are too many metaphysicians out there today (imo) who hide behind an incomplete comprehension of uncertainty and quantum mechanics. cn


Yes, an aweful lot of uncertainty would have to be aligned to created a repeatable, non-causal event in the macro world, for example. Or to throw a rock through a boulder. But, it's more than meta-woo that says it is certainly possible. In Many Worlds Hypothisis, there is nothing to suggest a strict timeline causal effect of event forks, as I understand it, meagerly. Though these decisions are said to create these other, many, worlds, there is nothing to say at what point that decision would be injected to make the new world. There is plenty to suggest non-causal effect at the forks. I would say that forking Worlds is a possible maco effect. 

So, true, micro scale, but all existence is piles of these micro particles. That's all there is.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> What is prophecy?
> 
> Define it


Prophecy is basically making a prediction thats guaranteed to come true. The way you described it sounds like a bunch of loonies in a cult. Example of a prophecy would be like I write down today that a specific event will happen usually during a specific time period or place, in a specific order of events. If it doesnt come true its not prophecy. Most people that "think" theyre prophets (i.e. Joseph Smith) are usually making stuff up and convincing themselves it is a message from god. The book of Revelations is a good example of prophecy that is coming true, proving itself to be a legitimate prophetic text.


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Prophecy is basically making a prediction thats guaranteed to come true. The way you described it sounds like a bunch of loonies in a cult. Example of a prophecy would be like I write down today that a specific event will happen usually during a specific time period or place, in a specific order of events. If it doesnt come true its not prophecy. Most people that "think" theyre prophets (i.e. Joseph Smith) are usually making stuff up and convincing themselves it is a message from god. The book of Revelations is a good example of prophecy that is coming true, proving itself to be a legitimate prophetic text.


Someday our sun is going to explode. Guess I'm a prophet now.

Time to find a 9 year old to marry and maybe I'll start my own religion. Oh wait muporkmed beat me to it.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Join usssss. cn


Haha.. Seriously though, I feel like that's how CWE views us.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

Cut.Throat. said:


> Someday our sun is going to explode. Guess I'm a prophet now.
> 
> Time to find a 9 year old to marry and maybe I'll start my own religion. Oh wait muporkmed beat me to it.



 ...tha fck?


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

Doer said:


> Yes, an aweful lot of uncertainty would have to be aligned to created a repeatable, non-causal event in the macro world, for example. Or to throw a rock through a boulder. But, it's more than meta-woo that says it is certainly possible. In Many Worlds Hypothisis, there is nothing to suggest a strict timeline causal effect of event forks, as I understand it, meagerly. Though these decisions are said to create these other, many, worlds, there is nothing to say at what point that decision would be injected to make the new world. There is plenty to suggest non-causal effect at the forks. I would say that forking Worlds is a possible maco effect.
> 
> So, true, micro scale, but all existence is piles of these micro particles. That's all there is.


The probability of an electron tunneling into and out of a "quantum dot" is high enough to measure.
The probability of a rock tunneling through another rock is ten to the minus such an insanely huge number that it can not only be approximated - but stated - as zero. 
And Many Worlds is exactly the sort of thing I mean when I refer to the new quantumspeak as metaphysics. So many stacked what-ifs. cn


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

Moebius said:


> I was referring to accusing me of intentionally posting a link and misrepresenting it because I didnt think it would be clicked.
> 
> IMO ... The constant nickpicking equates to trolling.


Moebius, I've stripped your argument and found it a mite one-sided. 
~pun too good to resist~ cn


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 20, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Haha.. Seriously though, I feel like that's how CWE views us.







.................


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 20, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Haha.. Seriously though, I feel like that's how CWE views us.


Nah, more like this =p


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Links?
> The Temple Mount is and has been occupied by a Mosque for quite some time. They don't even allow archaeological excavations there let alone rebuild the Temple.
> Links again.
> Some tumors can spontaneously regress. How do you determine if that was god or a tumor that regressed naturally?
> I have seen zero evidence that anyone that has been paralyzed getting up and walking without medical devices. It sounds like you have been taken in by faith healers and revivals where the placebo effect and outright fraud is used. Look up Peter Popoff. Every time people have investigated miraculous healing, the evidence has come up short. I have citations and literature to support this, do you have anything to support your claims?


http://www.squidoo.com/templejerusalem

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1643.cfm

http://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm

http://www.newgateministries.com/jerusalemchronicles/rebuilt-temple.html

http://endtimepilgrim.org/temple.htm

I could go on. And havent you heard of how the freemasons already rebuilt a walkway to the temple to kick off the construction? And as far as the miracles go, I have witnessed first hand a quadrapalegic walk.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I have not yet seen a video that withstands challenge. Video and digital photos are not reliable imo.
> Actual scientists would use equipment that would meet the authenticity challenge. I don't mean "only official, accredited get to play" when I say scientists, but rather people who understand systematic error and how to contain it. That's one of my markers for science vs. parlor games. cn


A simple google search turns up plenty of proof of the paranormal. Not to mention plenty of TV shows on mainstream networks like discovery, history, and natgeo.


----------



## BA142 (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> A simple google search turns up plenty of proof of the paranormal. Not to mention plenty of TV shows on mainstream networks like discovery, history, and natgeo.


A simple google search also tells me that marijuana is a dangerous and physically addictive drug that will cause schizophrenia and mass hysteria


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> A simple google search turns up plenty of proof of the paranormal. Not to mention plenty of TV shows on mainstream networks like discovery, history, and natgeo.


We have different criteria of proof. cn


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> http://www.squidoo.com/templejerusalem
> 
> http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1643.cfm
> 
> ...


I have to give you a rep for actually providing links when requested. Most theists here have danced and dodged when they have made certain claims. The following point was something I was completely unaware. Thank you very much for providing those links


> As we consider the rebuilding of the Temple there is one more important question that must be addressed. Just where on the Temple Mount will the future Jewish Temple be built? Will the foundations be laid right in the middle of the Temple Mount as many suppose? This would necessitate the removal or destruction of the Dome of the Rock. Of course this would be an earthshaking turn of events.
> The Dome is a revered Islamic site.
> Will the Dome of the Rock be destroyed?
> And is its removal even necessary? Just where did the original temple stand? Was it really in the center as we see in the paintings? Or was it situated to the *north* of the present location of the Dome of the Rock? Some Jewish authorities on the subject, notably Asher Kaufmann are saying precisely this.
> ...


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> A simple google search turns up plenty of proof of the paranormal. Not to mention plenty of TV shows on mainstream networks like discovery, history, and natgeo.


I've watched many of the mainstream TV shows and none, not a single one has every provided solid evidence for supernatural claims. In fact, many of the debunk the claims they investigate such as in the _Paranormal Files._


----------



## tyler.durden (Jun 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> We have different criteria of proof. cn


_Way_ different...


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 20, 2012)

DirtyGloveLuv said:


> like the ideas of right and wrong, killing being wrong, all that kinda stuff is all Christian principles. do you think animals feel bad when they kill? fuck no


It isn't killing that is wrong it is murder... two different concepts...


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> And as far as the miracles go, I have witnessed first hand a quadrapalegic walk.


Did you know this person beforehand? Do you know details of his medical condition, i.e. why he was a quadriplegic? Did any doctors examine him ahead of time to verify he wasn't a plant? Faith healers are not above fraud as I pointed out above.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> I have to give you a rep for actually providing links when requested. Most theists here have danced and dodged when they have made certain claims. The following point was something I was completely unaware. Thank you very much for providing those links


Thank you. Another thing as well that was foretold was Isreal becoming a nation again. Im sure I dont need to provide links on that tho.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Did you know this person beforehand? Do you know details of his medical condition, i.e. why he was a quadriplegic? Did any doctors examine him ahead of time to verify he wasn't a plant? Faith healers are not above fraud as I pointed out above.


It was actually a she. She was probably in her 60s and had gotten a cancer or tumor in her spine or something like that when she was younger. She was a member of the church and had to be brought every sunday in a special van. She was also one of those ppl that had the creepy wandering eyes and drool and awkward neck position.. but yea at a revival one sunday (it sucked, lasted like 9 hours) after like 40 minutes of intense prayer from like 5 pastors and everyone their they commanded her to walk and up she went. That was pretty convincing for me. Ive also heard peoples personal problems been told to them NUMEROUS times by pastors and ministers that had no way of getting that info, it was intense, I remember this one guest pastor we had was calling people out by the color of their shirt from another room.


----------



## RC7 (Jun 20, 2012)

i believe our souls are eternal energy. We enter a new flesh vehicle in each life.


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Thank you. Another thing as well that was foretold was Isreal becoming a nation again. Im sure I dont need to provide links on that tho.


Actually, Isaiah said that all Israelites will return to the homeland. There are many orthodox Jews that refuse to accept the legitimacy of Israel because it was created in turmoil by politicians rather than by the true Messiah, a king of Israel. 
Another prophecy says* that knowledge of God will fill the world*, and *the whole world will worship the One God of Israel*. There seems to be a strong trend away from that. 
*The peoples of the world will turn to Jews for spiritual guidance. *Mmmm, No. 
How about the prophecy that all weapons of war will be destroyed? Not happening anytime soon. 

All I can see is that you are picking and choosing which prophecies have been fulfilled and claiming that it is evidence that the end of days is near.


----------



## tyler.durden (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> It was actually a she. She was probably in her 60s and had gotten a cancer or tumor in her spine or something like that when she was younger. She was a member of the church and had to be brought every sunday in a special van. She was also one of those ppl that had the creepy wandering eyes and drool and awkward neck position.. but yea at a revival one sunday (it sucked, lasted like 9 hours) after like 40 minutes of intense prayer from like 5 pastors and everyone their they commanded her to walk and up she went. That was pretty convincing for me. Ive also heard peoples personal problems been told to them NUMEROUS times by pastors and ministers that had no way of getting that info, it was intense, I remember this one guest pastor we had was calling people out by the color of their shirt from another room.


I would find the argument for god more convincing if someone, anywhere, at any time regrew a lost limb. Why do amputees elicit such disregard? I'm sure many of them are faithful...


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 20, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> I would find the argument for god more convincing if someone, anywhere, at any time regrew a lost limb. Why do amputees elicit such disregard? I'm sure many of them are faithful...


Maybe the insurers are onto something when they classify dismemberment as an act of God.

I'd like to see microcephaly healed. Or Down's. That would impress even the arctic one. cn


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Actually, Isaiah said that all Israelites will return to the homeland. There are many orthodox Jews that refuse to accept the legitimacy of Israel because it was created in turmoil by politicians rather than by the true Messiah, a king of Israel.
> Another prophecy says* that knowledge of God will fill the world*, and *the whole world will worship the One God of Israel*. There seems to be a strong trend away from that.
> *The peoples of the world will turn to Jews for spiritual guidance. *Mmmm, No.
> How about the prophecy that all weapons of war will be destroyed? Not happening anytime soon.
> ...


Have patience. Im not picking and choosing anything. Everything has come true so far I doubt it will stop now.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> I would find the argument for god more convincing if someone, anywhere, at any time regrew a lost limb. Why do amputees elicit such disregard? I'm sure many of them are faithful...


Thats a good question. But I guess if somebody lost a limb it was meant to happen. Dont quote me on that tho its just an idea. But, certain bad things do happen to ppl because its part of a plan for something better to happen in the future. That happens all the time. Sometimes ppl need something to make them appreciate life more.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Maybe the insurers are onto something when they classify dismemberment as an act of God.
> 
> I'd like to see microcephaly healed. Or Down's. That would impress even the arctic one. cn


I have a feeling that when some ppl are born with disabilities it was meant to happen. God works in mysterious ways.


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Have patience. Im not picking and choosing anything. Everything has come true so far I doubt it will stop now.


I'm glad you're optimistic but I will believe it when it actually happens. There have been many attempts to rebuild the Temple from Roman, throughout the medieval times and even modern ones, and so far, still no Temple.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> I'm glad you're optimistic but I will believe it when it actually happens. There have been many attempts to rebuild the Temple from Roman, throughout the medieval times and even modern ones, and so far, still no Temple.


But trust me, its gonna happen soon. As long as you dont completely reject that it will happen I have no problem with your opinion. I understand any doubt, especially in the times we live in.


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 20, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> But trust me, its gonna happen soon. As long as you dont completely reject that it will happen I have no problem with your opinion. I understand any doubt, especially in the times we live in.


See, this is an attitude I can respect from a theist. I am just so tired of people telling me I'm doing something wrong by being skeptical of any belief. Of course it's mostly from just a few people, but they are very vocal....CWE.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 20, 2012)




----------



## Kaendar (Jun 20, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> See, this is an attitude I can respect from a theist. I am just so tired of people telling me I'm doing something wrong by being skeptical of any belief. Of course it's mostly from just a few people, but they are very vocal....CWE.


I wish others on this site could be mature and have the respect you do.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 21, 2012)

Are you guys gonna kiss now?

jkjk.. I just had to.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 21, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Are you guys gonna kiss now?
> 
> jkjk.. I just had to.


If you share a joint it's kind like kissing... I'm just saying...


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> A simple google search turns up plenty of proof of the paranormal. Not to mention plenty of TV shows on mainstream networks like discovery, history, and natgeo.


What is the difference between science and pseudoscience? <--- serious question


----------



## Doer (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I have a feeling that when some ppl are born with disabilities it was meant to happen. God works in mysterious ways.


Seems like Christians long ago, turned from the idea of free will. It has become, especially among the evangelical, a fate based religion. Like Islam. 

So, a religion defines 'god" out of whole cloth, will kill and burn, so sure of "right". And yet there is always this abdication of any understanding, at all.

"Mysterious ways" , "Inasha Aallah", is the same as "luck" and "roll the dice." Christians pray for good luck, for boons from god. Why, because the Church used to sell them. And in the same fashion, there are also prayers for bad luck to smoot and smite others. 

Meant to happen? That's what the Boo Hoo Hudist, say about everything. Karma, fate.


----------



## H R Puff N Stuff (Jun 21, 2012)

i would think after you get your brain and vertabra


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 21, 2012)

Doer said:


> Seems like Christians long ago, turned from the idea of free will. It has become, especially among the evangelical, a fate based religion. Like Islam.
> 
> So, a religion defines 'god" out of whole cloth, will kill and burn, so sure of "right". And yet there is always this abdication of any understanding, at all.
> 
> ...


The saying is "Insha Allah" which means if god is willing. And there are no prayers for bad luck? Wtf?


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> The saying is "Insha Allah" which means if god is willing. And there are no prayers for bad luck? Wtf?


I have a hard time imagining people praying for bad luck. But there were the flagellants, so ~shrug~. cn


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 21, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I have a hard time imagining people praying for bad luck. But there were the flagellants, so ~shrug~. cn


Isn't that the basis behind voodoo?


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 21, 2012)

Cut.Throat. said:


> Isn't that the basis behind voodoo?


You mean someone else's bad luck? Oh. cn


----------



## ActionHanks (Jun 21, 2012)

"You" are a soul.
This physical reality is an illusion, the veil of maya.
Not one single piece of matter is actually "real", it has all been created for a purpose beyond your understanding
"You" the "soul" are being tested by the "ultimate creator" 
He is attempting to categorize himself, which you are apart of
In order to do this, he must test the soul without the soul knowing it is being tested. 
That test is called life. Every person you meet, every opportunity you arrive at has already been predestined, what hasnt been is how you will respond. 

Been reading a lot of Krishna writings lately.

EDIT: so to address the OP's question directly, You dont "get" a soul, you are one. You have always been and will always be. Just like matter cannot be created or destroyed, nor can your eternal soul. Maybe it can get locked away in some abysmal dimension where you dont experience anything for 100000000 years, but it can also just as easily be confined to a human body, or a plant, or maybe even a sea slug


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 21, 2012)

Cut.Throat. said:


> Isn't that the basis behind voodoo?


Yes that is voodoo, which is witchcraft if you want to categorize it in with religions.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 21, 2012)

ActionHanks said:


> "You" are a soul.
> This physical reality is an illusion, the veil of maya.
> Not one single piece of matter is actually "real", it has all been created for a purpose beyond your understanding
> "You" the "soul" are being tested by the "ultimate creator"
> ...


I agree with pretty much everything you said. IMO I think we have more freedom when it comes to destiny. I think destiny brings us to certain opportunities and situations and its up to us what direction to take, not every situation and opportunity. Thats the only thing I half-disagree on.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 21, 2012)

ActionHanks said:


> "You" are a soul.
> This physical reality is an illusion, the veil of maya.
> Not one single piece of matter is actually "real", it has all been created for a purpose beyond your understanding
> "You" the "soul" are being tested by the "ultimate creator"
> ...


What is the point of this test? How do you pass, how do you fail. What happens when you pass, what happens when you fail. Do you have any evidence for these claims?


----------



## ActionHanks (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I agree with pretty much everything you said. IMO I think we have more freedom when it comes to destiny. I think destiny brings us to certain opportunities and situations and its up to us what direction to take, not every situation and opportunity. Thats the only thing I half-disagree on.


I see what you're saying, kind of like an ant farm; the ants have some predefined paths already but they can shift the sand around and make paths that maybe previously werent there?

The only reason I stand behind predestination at all is because of the laws of physics.
Everything (all matter, light, sound, anything etc) was concentrated at one time in one super dense, super hot point, which then exploded (aka the big bang). The big bang is just a glorified explosion, and explosions follow the laws of physics just like anything else. To ME that means everything that ever has, or ever will exist, has already been mapped out in the sort of "ballistics" explosion analysis of the big bang. In other words any physical occurrence is simply the result of physics falling into place. 

This doesnt take into account things like quarks and quirks, which dont really follow any currently written physical laws. I like to believe what i believe because it explains things in a way I can understand, doesnt break any outstanding physical laws, and because it fits my world view. Same reason(s) anyone believes in anything else (i would hope )




Zaehet Strife said:


> What is the point of this test? How do you pass, how do you fail. What happens when you pass, what happens when you fail. Do you have any evidence for these claims?


There isnt really a "point" to the test, its a cycle. Do the morally righteous thing, and reject physical distractions. Be rewarded by having your soul transcended to a "higher" physical reality. Live like an animal, devoting your life strictly to physical gratification, and you will remain trapped in a cycle of lowly physical beings, never allowed to reach the "truth" of "ultimate reality". So its not really pass or fail, more like learn or be forced to repeat. And also, I have absolutely no evidence for these claims what so ever. This is just a hodgepodge belief system i tote around for myself, its kind of a conglomerate of hinduism, shintoism, and 21st century quantum theory.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 21, 2012)

ActionHanks said:


> I see what you're saying, kind of like an ant farm; the ants have some predefined paths already but they can shift the sand around and make paths that maybe previously werent there?
> 
> The only reason I stand behind predestination at all is because of the laws of physics.
> Everything (all matter, light, sound, anything etc) was concentrated at one time in one super dense, super hot point, which then exploded (aka the big bang). The big bang is just a glorified explosion, and explosions follow the laws of physics just like anything else. To ME that means everything that ever has, or ever will exist, has already been mapped out in the sort of "ballistics" explosion analysis of the big bang. *In other words any physical occurrence is simply the result of physics falling into place. *
> ...


The mathematics of chaotic processes ("chaos theory") are the fly in that jar of ointment. cn


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 21, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> What is the point of this test? How do you pass, how do you fail. What happens when you pass, what happens when you fail. Do you have any evidence for these claims?


STOP with your evidence shit!! There are some things in life that cant be proved! Deal with it! If not please stop commenting, because we will never have enough evidence to please ppl as close minded as you!


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> STOP with your evidence shit!! *There are some things in life that cant be proved!* Deal with it! If not please stop commenting, because we will never have enough evidence to please ppl as close minded as you!


Prove it.

What is the value in believing in something there is no evidence for?


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> STOP with your evidence shit!! There are some things in life that cant be proved! Deal with it! If not please stop commenting, because we will never have enough evidence to please ppl as close minded as you!


So by your standards there could be such a thing as a flying spaghetti monster. And when you die heaven is full of stripper factories and beer volcanoes.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> STOP with your evidence shit!! There are some things in life that cant be proved! Deal with it! If not please stop commenting, because we will never have enough evidence to please ppl as close minded as you!


The word "evidence" will get thrown in our face every time someone tries to discuss spirituality here. Even the "Spirituality Mod" doesnt tolerate discussions about spirituality. The title of this sub forum is quite misleading, isnt it?


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 21, 2012)

I have the most opened mind of anyone Ive ever known, i have more imaginative ideas in my head than reasonable ones, trust me. 

I agree with Pad, what is the value in believing in anything if there is nothing to base this belief on but "_I believe this idea because i want to believe it, i like it_" ?

Being afraid of uncertainty i think is the major factor in all metaphysical thinking.

When you begin to understand the implications of not being able to know weather or not you have a soul, you will begin to understand the psychological insanity and delusion those must undertake to tell themselves they are certain of something that holds no claim to certainty... and probably never will.

"_I know_!" you tell yourself. _"I know I know! I Just know_!" you repeat over and over. The truth of this matter is, that you do not know... and this fills you with fear. When making up an answer in order to deal with the fear of not knowing, one must become insane and delusioned, this is the only way one can hide from the fact that he/she is not certain.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> The word "evidence" will get thrown in our face every time someone tries to discuss spirituality here. *Even the "Spirituality Mod" doesnt tolerate discussions about spirituality.* The title of this sub forum is quite misleading, isnt it?


I guarantee you can't provide any evidence to back up that claim.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 21, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> I guarantee you can't provide any evidence to back up that claim.


*

Define 'soul' without using the word 'like'.

What is the evidence that supports the existence of souls?

Where is your soul?​




*


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> *
> 
> Define 'soul' without using the word 'like'.
> 
> ...


This would be indication of fostering discussion and debate. Asking questions is the heart of communication. It seems you view any questions you do not like as intolerance.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> *
> 
> Define 'soul' without using the word 'like'.
> 
> ...


Jesus Christ! How intolerant of me!! How dare I ask someone to define a word or provide evidence for a claim! 

Do you know what 'tolerate' means?

I can close any thread, do you know how many I've closed? 4 or 5, know why? Spam. 

Know how many times I've closed for any other threads? Zero.

That's tolerance.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 21, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Jesus Christ! How intolerant of me!! How dare I ask someone to define a word or provide evidence for a claim!
> 
> Do you know what 'tolerate' means?
> 
> ...


Why are you the spirituality mod if your not spiritual? That makes no sense.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 21, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Jesus Christ! How intolerant of me!! How dare I ask someone to define a word or provide evidence for a claim!
> 
> Do you know what 'tolerate' means?
> 
> ...


I may have used the wrong describing word but surely you get my point. You are a SPIRITUALITY Mod and you cant let theists discuss spirituality in peace. You gotta chime in with "Durrr science hasnt found god yet, dont you know this way of thinking is irrational?".


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Why are you the spirituality mod if your not spiritual? That makes no sense.


EXACTLY! (ten characters)


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Why are you the spirituality mod if your not spiritual? That makes no sense.


Because if you were a mod you'd close every thread that contradicted your views. At least he allows you to go on your idiotic rants.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 21, 2012)

I think this needs to be said again;

Being afraid of uncertainty i think is the major factor in all metaphysical thinking.

When you begin to understand the implications of not being able to know weather or not you have a soul or if there is or isn't a god, you will begin to understand the psychological insanity and delusion those must undertake to tell themselves they are certain of something that holds no claim to certainty... and probably never will.

"_I know_!" you tell yourself. _"I know I know! I Just know_!" you repeat over and over. The truth of this matter is, that you do not know... and this fills you with fear. When making up an answer in order to deal with the fear of not knowing, one must become insane and delusioned, this is the only way one can hide from the fact that he/she is not certain. 

Don't be afraid, nobody knows, you are not alone.


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> STOP with your evidence shit!! There are some things in life that cant be proved! Deal with it! If not please stop commenting, because we will never have enough evidence to please ppl as close minded as you!


Did you know that we are all just simulated programs being ran on a computer of the future? There will come a time when computers are capable of running extremely real simulations indistinguishable from reality. Future humans want to understand their past, so they run computer simulations based on history to learn more. It's actually a past time for them, with pretty much every home doing it for fun on their own computers. Each computer can run dozens of simulations. The chances that we are the true instance of actual real history rather than one of the trillions of simulations is almost impossible. This is best demonstrated by deja vu, which happens when your program needs to sync up with the simulation. If we were the real instance of human history we would not experience deja vu.


&#8220;That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.&#8221; 
&#8213; Christopher Hitchens


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I may have used the wrong describing word but surely you get my point. You are a SPIRITUALITY Mod and you cant let theists discuss spirituality in peace. You gotta chime in with "Durrr science hasnt found god yet, dont you know this way of thinking is irrational?".


If you want a forum where you can participate in your mental masturbation without scrutiny or challenge, try PM's, or groups, or something else exclusive. In a public forum the public has the right to participate. This means people will listen to your words and respond thoughtfully. If you do not care to hear their responses you can always add them to your ignore list.

But if you think bellyaching and caterwaul is a better approach go for it.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> *
> 
> Define 'soul' without using the word 'like'.
> 
> ...


How is asking questions intolerant? I think the Intolerance Cannon backfired.


Kaendar said:


> Why are you the spirituality mod if your not spiritual? That makes no sense.


You don't need to be spiritual, just "mod'al". As far as I can see Pad has an easy hand on the reins around here. I like it. cn


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 21, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> If you want a forum where you can participate in your mental masturbation without scrutiny or challenge, try PM's, or groups, or something else exclusive. In a public forum the public has the right to participate. This means people will listen to your words and respond thoughtfully. If you do not care to hear their responses you can always add them to your ignore list.
> 
> But if you think bellyaching and caterwaul is a better approach go for it.


What do you get from adding your point of view thats the total opposite of theists? Do you gain anything from it? Or are you convinced the scientific and atheist point of view is superior to the theists point of view and you feel like your teaching people the truth? All your doing is starting arguments that go nowhere, it is absolutely pointless to say your two cents because your getting NOTHING accomplished by doing so, just pats on the back by other atheist nut-huggers. The only thing I can think of that you gained is that you convinced a southerner that Christianity is a lie.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> The word "evidence" will get thrown in our face every time someone tries to discuss spirituality here. Even the "Spirituality Mod" doesnt tolerate discussions about spirituality. The title of this sub forum is quite misleading, isnt it?


They tolerate y'all's strange claims. They just ask if y'all could prove it.


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> What do you get from adding your point of view thats the total opposite of theists? Do you gain anything from it? Or are you convinced the scientific and atheist point of view is superior to the theists point of view and you feel like your teaching people the truth? All your doing is starting arguments that go nowhere, it is absolutely pointless to say your two cents because your getting NOTHING accomplished by doing so, just pats on the back by other atheist nut-huggers. The only thing I can think of that you gained is that you convinced a southerner that Christianity is a lie.


What do you get from adding your point of view thats the total opposite of atheists? Do you gain anything from it? Or are you convinced the religious point of view is superior to the atheists point of view and you feel like your teaching people the truth? All your doing is starting arguments that go nowhere, it is absolutely pointless to say your two cents because your getting NOTHING accomplished by doing so, just pats on the back by other theist nut-huggers. The only thing I can think of that you gained is that you convinced a *person* that Christianity is a lie.

Works both ways.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 21, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> They tolerate y'all's strange claims. They just ask if y'all could prove it.


Give it up, Heph. I find it diagnostic that the Bird referred to you not as a person, but a southerner. It diminishes you somehow. Just ... wow. cn


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> What do you get from adding your point of view thats the total opposite of theists? Do you gain anything from it? Or are you convinced the scientific and atheist point of view is superior to the theists point of view and you feel like your teaching people the truth? All your doing is starting arguments that go nowhere, it is absolutely pointless to say your two cents because your getting NOTHING accomplished by doing so, just pats on the back by other atheist nut-huggers. The only thing I can think of that you gained is that you convinced a southerner that Christianity is a lie.


I see you decided to stick with bellyaching and caterwaul.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 21, 2012)

Cut.Throat. said:


> What do you get from adding your point of view thats the total opposite of atheists? Do you gain anything from it? Or are you convinced the religious point of view is superior to the atheists point of view and you feel like your teaching people the truth? All your doing is starting arguments that go nowhere, it is absolutely pointless to say your two cents because your getting NOTHING accomplished by doing so, just pats on the back by other theist nut-huggers. The only thing I can think of that you gained is that you convinced a southerner that Christianity is a lie.
> 
> Works both ways.


The troll that thinks all muslims are terrorists lol. It doesnt go both ways. Its only the die hard religious people that start arguments with these self proclaimed masters of knowledge. We're talking about spiritualists here, not the religious. The spiritualists dont oppose these science loving fat heads, we accept what science has to say but trying to use science to find god reminds me of the retard from Tropic Thunder trying to hit a butterfly with a big mallet.


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> The troll that thinks all muslims are terrorists lol. It doesnt go both ways. Its only the die hard religious people that start arguments with these self proclaimed masters of knowledge. We're talking about spiritualists here, not the religious. The spiritualists dont oppose these science loving fat heads, we accept what science has to say but trying to use science to find god reminds me of the retard from Tropic Thunder trying to hit a butterfly with a big mallet.


Sounds like you don't even know what you believe.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 21, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> I see you decided to stick with bellyaching and caterwaul.


I guess I gotta use your tactic and put words in peoples mouths... "I gain a false sense of superiority, I live by science and just love using it against theists like it proves something, then my peers pat me on the back, thus giving my ego a massive erection" ... Correct me if thats not your point of view.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 21, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Give it up, Heph. I find it diagnostic that the Bird referred to you not as a person, but a southerner. It diminishes you somehow. Just ... wow. cn


lol.. I honestly laughed at myself for using "y'all" twice in one post. I've never done that before. Should I say "yous guys"?


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 21, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> lol.. I honestly laughed at myself for using "y'all" twice in one post. I've never done that before. Should I say "yous guys"?


I believe for a plural the proper form is "all y'all", I'll tell ya whut. cn


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 21, 2012)

Cut.Throat. said:


> What do you get from adding your point of view thats the total opposite of atheists? Do you gain anything from it? Or are you convinced the religious point of view is superior to the atheists point of view and you feel like your teaching people the truth? All your doing is starting arguments that go nowhere, it is absolutely pointless to say your two cents because your getting NOTHING accomplished by doing so, just pats on the back by other theist nut-huggers. The only thing I can think of that you gained is that you convinced a southerner that Christianity is a lie.
> 
> Works both ways.


Words of an insecure internet douche-troll.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 21, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> I believe for a plural the proper form is "all y'all", I'll tell ya whut. cn


{Inserts wheat branch into mouth and spits tobaccy}


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 21, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> {Inserts wheat branch into mouth and spits tobaccy}


Spit, then insert.  cn


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> The troll that thinks all muslims are terrorists lol. It doesnt go both ways. Its only the die hard religious people that start arguments with these self proclaimed masters of knowledge. We're talking about spiritualists here, not the religious. The spiritualists dont oppose these science loving fat heads, we accept what science has to say but trying to use science to find god reminds me of the retard from Tropic Thunder trying to hit a butterfly with a big mallet.


There is no instance of any science, atheist, or skeptic guys here saying they are masters of knowledge. Do you realize what the term 'self proclaimed' means? None of us have ever said atheism is superior to spirituality. The faults you find in us are reflections of your own shortcomings. The problems you are listing with us do not exist outside of yourself.

What we do say is that your assertions and propositions are riddled with mistakes and bias, and we take the time to explain why objectively. This is when you fly of the handle with insults, name calling, and attempts to shut us up, adding immature arrogance to the mix. As you say, you do not oppose science when you perceive it backs you up. These tactics are the refuge of a defenseless mind.


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Words of an insecure internet douche-troll.


You make me giggle.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 21, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Spit, then insert.  cn


u tellin me whut 2 do boy!


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 21, 2012)

Oh absolutely not Sir!! ~backs away slowly~ cn


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 21, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> There is no instance of any science, atheist, or skeptic guys here saying they are masters of knowledge. Do you realize what the term 'self proclaimed' means? None of us have ever said atheism is superior to spirituality. The faults you find in us are reflections of your own shortcomings. The problems you are listing with us do not exist outside of yourself.
> 
> What we do say is that your assertions and propositions are riddled with mistakes and bias, and we take the time to explain why objectively. This is when you fly of the handle with insults, name calling, and attempts to shut us up, adding immature arrogance to the mix. As you say, you do not oppose science when you perceive it backs you up. These tactics are the refuge of a defenseless mind.


"I get a false sense of superiority, I live by science and just love using it against theists like it proves something. Then my peers pat me on the back, thus giving my ego a massive erection"
Once again, is that not what you gain from adding your two cents into discussions about things you dont believe in? If not, what do you gain?


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> "I get a false sense of superiority, I live by science and just love using it against theists like it proves something. Then my peers pat me on the back, thus giving my ego a massive erection"
> Once again, is that not what you gain from adding your two cents into discussions about things you dont believe in? If not, what do you gain?


Are you incapable of learning anything?


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 21, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Are you incapable of learning anything?


Says the SPIRITUALITY Mod that starts arguments that go nowhere.


----------



## TogTokes (Jun 21, 2012)

tell santa i said hi guys.


----------



## abandonconflict (Jun 21, 2012)

Everything perceptible that can be attributed to emotional behavior is biochemical and evolutionary.

Yes, I meant to present it as fact despite that it is my opinion, that is just how I roll.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 21, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Are you incapable of learning anything?


For a mod you certainly like to start trouble.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> For a mod you certainly like to start trouble.


Hes just an angry child that looks forward to a world where no one believes in god... I hope he's learned to cope with other peoples beliefs in twenty years when theres still plenty of god lovers around...


----------



## abandonconflict (Jun 21, 2012)

I think a good question, along the same topic, that can be investigated, is: At what point in embryonic development does the brain develop bicameral hemispheres? 

Bicameralism is key to psychological study.


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Hes just an angry child that looks forward to a world where no one believes in god... I hope he's learned to cope with other peoples beliefs in twenty years when theres still plenty of god lovers around...


There'll always be idiots. You're still around.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 21, 2012)

Cut.Throat. said:


> There'll always be idiots. You're still around.


I take it you got tired of looking like an idiot in TnT? =p


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I take it you got tired of looking like an idiot in TnT? =p


Nah I don't care what you think about me. Ask kaendar. Every time he insults me I like his posts because he makes me giggle.

Btw i don't even pay attention to sub forums. I just click "new posts" and see what pops up.


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> "I get a false sense of superiority, I live by science and just love using it against theists like it proves something. Then my peers pat me on the back, thus giving my ego a massive erection"
> Once again, is that not what you gain from adding your two cents into discussions about things you dont believe in? If not, what do you gain?


You project this attitude on me, which is a demonstration of your prejudice. If you turned in a math paper and the instructor said it was full of mistakes and miscalculations, would you call him arrogant and claim he had an erection? Science is not a matter of opinion, the method is as solidified as the process of arithmetic. While I have no qualifications to be called an instructor, several here do, and you treat them the same. I do have a much better understanding of the scientific method and it's implications, the proper use of logic and reasoning, and how to effectively communicate with others than you do. I am sorry you do not appreciate my attempts to vet your statements and alert you to errors, and I welcome you to put me on ignore, they are apparently no benefit to you anyhow. 

I am also sorry it bothers you so much when others like my posts. I do not get upset when you get likes, in fact I have no idea if you ever have or not, is how much I care. You would probably have a slightly better day if you cared less about it yourself.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Hes just an angry child that looks forward to a world where no one believes in god... I hope he's learned to cope with other peoples beliefs in twenty years when theres still plenty of god lovers around...


Its funny because the CIA reports that 97.6% of the world believes in some kind of god.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I take it you got tired of looking like an idiot in TnT? =p


My spidey senses tell me he wont be around for long


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> My spidey senses tell me he wont be around for long


Your spidey sense is off. IP bans are a joke.



Kaendar said:


> Its funny because the CIA reports that 97.6% of the world believes in some kind of god.


Links please.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 21, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> You project this attitude on me, which is a demonstration of your prejudice. If you turned in a math paper and the instructor said it was full of mistakes and miscalculations, would you call him arrogant and claim he had an erection? Science is not a matter of opinion, the method is as solidified as the process of arithmetic. While I have no qualifications to be called an instructor, several here do, and you treat them the same. I do have a much better understanding of the scientific method and it's implications, the proper use of logic and reasoning, and how to effectively communicate with others than you do. I am sorry you do not appreciate my attempts to vet your statements and alert you to errors, and I welcome you to put me on ignore, they are apparently no benefit to you anyhow.
> 
> I am also sorry it bothers you so much when others like my posts. I do not get upset when you get likes, in fact I have no idea if you ever have or not, is how much I care. You would probably have a slightly better day if you cared less about it yourself.


All that blabber and you still never answered my question lol What is it that you gain, Heis? Who benefits from your arguments against the logic of spirituality and theism?


----------



## jessy koons (Jun 21, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> u tellin me whut 2 do boy!
> View attachment 2222866


How did you guys get this picture of my aunt Betty and uncles Billy and Billy.


----------



## jessy koons (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Its funny because the CIA reports that 97.6% of the world believes in some kind of god.


I know this is wrong because they never asked me or anybody else that I know. Has anybody on this forum been asked by the CIA about their religious beliefs?

How did you come up with this nonsense?


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 21, 2012)

jessy koons said:


> How did you guys get this picture of my aunt Betty and uncles Billy and Billy.


I cannot imagine the trauma the first day you saw Aunt Betty was actually Uncle Betty. cn


----------



## kpmarine (Jun 21, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> All that blabber and you still never answered my question lol What is it that you gain, Heis? Who benefits from your arguments against the logic of spirituality and theism?


It's a shot in the dark; but maybe because you rarely, if ever, answer his questions. Well, unless you count personal attacks.


----------



## jessy koons (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Do humans acquire a soul at the moment of conception, or birth? Or sometime between then? Or when? Im conflicted by this question all the time.


Right after birth the doctor sucks the embryonic fluid out of your nose and then gives you a soul suppository. 

At the mortuary, after you've died, the mortician removes the soul, gives it a good washing, then sends it back to the hospital for reinsertion.

I think this is what happens.


----------



## BA142 (Jun 21, 2012)

Brain = Soul 


When you are clinically dead, your "soul" is clinically dead. Your brain IS everything you are. The soul is an outdated concept.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 21, 2012)

jessy koons said:


> I know this is wrong because they never asked me or anybody else that I know. Has anybody on this forum been asked by the CIA about their religious beliefs?
> 
> How did you come up with this nonsense?


Have none of you heard of the CIA world factbook? Look it up.


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Have none of you heard of the CIA world factbook? Look it up.





> Christian 33.35% (of which Roman Catholic 16.83%, Protestant 6.08%, Orthodox 4.03%, Anglican 1.26%), Muslim 22.43%, Hindu 13.78%, Buddhist 7.13%, Sikh 0.36%, Jewish 0.21%, Baha'i 0.11%, other religions 11.17%, non-religious 9.42%, atheists 2.04% (2009 est.)


9.42% + 2.04% = 11.46%
100% - 11.46% = 88.54%

88.54% <> 97.6%. Nice try tho. Keep making things up. It's what religion is all about anyway.

Oh and he's right. No one ever asked me about my religious beliefs. So those numbers are off anyway.


----------



## jessy koons (Jun 21, 2012)

Cut.Throat. said:


> 9.42% + 2.04% = 11.46%
> 100% - 11.46% = 88.54%
> 
> 88.54% <> 97.6%. Nice try tho. Keep making things up. It's what religion is all about anyway.
> ...


Nice job CT, I was stunned by the amount of info on that website and momentarily passed out. 

What sort of god do those 11.17% other religions believe in? Is it a hairy god with a beard and poor posture or is this god clean shaven with significant body waxing?


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 21, 2012)

jessy koons said:


> Nice job CT, I was stunned by the amount of info on that website and momentarily passed out.
> 
> What sort of god do those 11.17% other religions believe in? Is it a hairy god with a beard and poor posture or is this god clean shaven with significant body waxing?


Also I believe that buddhists don't believe in a higher power? So I would add them to the non-religous but I'll give kaendar the buddhists.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> For a mod you certainly like to start trouble.


Apparently you missed the previous few posts. Heis' analysis of CWE is spot on, he's rude and is incapable of accepting any criticisms about his beliefs, even though he posts them on a public forum to be read by people and commented on. Not sure if he realizes that doesn't make a whole lot of sense as the complaints always seem to be the same, lacking in substance, accusations and personal attacks. When have those tactics ever benefited anyone? 

He's full of personal bias and faulty reasoning, and when pointed out, all he's got are gradeschool comebacks, as if that accomplishes anything. Read his post history and see for yourself.



Kaendar said:


> Its funny because the CIA reports that 97.6% of the world believes in some kind of god.



Appeal to numbers/majority. It wouldn't make a difference if 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of people believed in God and I was the sole atheist in existence, it still wouldn't mean it's true. At one point in time, the vast majority of people believed the solar system orbited the Earth, at another point in time the majority of people believed the Earth was flat, see what I'm getting at? Just because a lot of people believe something is true doesn't make it true, similar to Justin Bieber or Bjork, they sell millions of albums, does that make their music the best? Whoever sells the most is the best? Do you consider the best movie in existence to be Avatar or Titanic? Because according to the most people they are...



Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Hes just an angry child that looks forward to a world where no one believes in god... I hope he's learned to cope with other peoples beliefs in twenty years when theres still plenty of god lovers around...



Well, when you're sitting there, 20 years from now, I hope you remember this statement. Unless something happens that takes out the internet worldwide, we will continue to see the numbers of people who claim any traditional religion fall. And you misunderstand me in this sense because you seem to think I want everybody to stop believing in God and until that day, I won't rest! Which isn't the case at all. I couldn't care less if people believe in God. I want people to stop killing people for/because of/in the name of God. I want people to accept reality for what it is and not ancient myths they're not prepared to get past. This is something you agree with but fail to acknowledge because of the place it's coming from.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 21, 2012)

Cut.Throat. said:


> 9.42% + 2.04% = 11.46%
> 100% - 11.46% = 88.54%
> 
> 88.54% <> 97.6%. Nice try tho. Keep making things up. It's what religion is all about anyway.
> ...


You listed only ppl that belong to specific religions. There are other numbers there.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> You listed only ppl that belong to specific religions. There are other numbers there.


"Nonreligious" can break either way imo. I don't think they can be counted either as confirmed theists or atheists. cn


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 21, 2012)

Why does the percentage of religious followers matter?


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> You listed only ppl that belong to specific religions. There are other numbers there.


I think you have a reading problem. I computed non-religious and atheist. And that's from the CIA fact book. Ya know? The one you made up your 97% from?


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 21, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Its funny because the CIA reports that 97.6% of the world *believes in some kind of god*.





> Christian 33.35% (of which Roman Catholic 16.83%, Protestant 6.08%, Orthodox 4.03%, Anglican 1.26%), Muslim 22.43%, Hindu 13.78%, Buddhist 7.13%, Sikh 0.36%, Jewish 0.21%, Baha'i 0.11%, other religions 11.17%, non-religious 9.42%, atheists 2.04% (2009 est.)


Buddhists do not believe in a god: http://www.buddhanet.net/ans73.htm . Must recompute.

2.04% + 9.42% + 7.13% = 18.59%. 100% - 18.59% = 81.41%

81.41% <> 97%

Any other variables i should know about?

edit: Actually kaendar you should really read that link. It explains perfectly why humans created god.

edit2: I'm starting to think I should become a buddhist. I mean I'm already a little chubby.

http://www.buddhanet.net/10-gqga.htm


----------



## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Jun 22, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Yes animals experience thought and emotion, but they dont know good and evil. Everything is put on this earth to support humans. Trees, plants, water, weather, animals, etc. And im not christian. Im not any religion.


err WOW , you seriousley think trees plants water and animals etc were put on this planet for humans ? lol humans have been on this planet for a fraction of the time this planet has been around. all those things you said have been around a hell of a lot longer than humans .
dinosaurs were using water trees and plants millions of years before we mere humans were even in existance .
some of the posts ive read from you in this thread are verging on the rediculous .


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 22, 2012)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> err WOW , you seriousley think trees plants water and animals etc were put on this planet for humans ? lol humans have been on this planet for a fraction of the time this planet has been around. all those things you said have been around a hell of a lot longer than humans .
> dinosaurs were using water trees and plants millions of years before we mere humans were even in existance .
> some of the posts ive read from you in this thread are verging on the rediculous .


Hey, thats what it says in the bible. Nothing conflicting so I go with it.


----------



## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Jun 22, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Like I said, the easiest proof of a spiritual world is attacks by demons. A simple internet search can give you plenty of proof. Second would be miracles, god using your body to make the impossible possible.


attacks by demons , wtf have you been smoking ? dont you think if people were being attacked by fucking demons all the time , it would be pretty big fuckin news , it would be being documented, photographs , videos , news reports , people paniking , it would be absolute mayhem .i for one wouldnt dare leave the house , if i thought for one minuite there was a chance of being attacked by a demon , and wtf is a demon in your opinion ?


----------



## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Jun 22, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Hey, thats what it says in the bible. Nothing conflicting so I go with it.


why the bible ? why not the quaran or any of the other holy books ? what makes the bible right and the others wrong ?because only 1 of them can be telling the truth ,


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 22, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Hey, thats what it says in the bible. Nothing conflicting so I go with it.


_However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

_


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 22, 2012)

Read Ecclesiates Kaendar... I implore you to read that part of the bible before you spew more misinformation about the bibles stance on animals...


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 22, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> Read Ecclesiates Kaendar... I implore you to read that part of the bible before you spew more misinformation about the bibles stance on animals...


Ive read the bible, many times. The problem with animals is that the bible is very vague as far as them having souls and everything. Animals are mostly mentioned as sacrifice in the bible.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 22, 2012)

Read Solomons writings... he was in the bible the man that was given his wisdom directly from god... Read it... then stop lying about the bibles actual stance on animals...

I was a big Church goer once, I used to go to church twice every Sunday, read my bible cover to cover many times and meditated on the writings to get a deeper understanding... Helped with the youth group and participated in many other church events... Been to see and talk to people with doctorates in Theology...

The bible doesn't agree that souls are a uniquely human attribute...


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 22, 2012)

And again... humans _are_ animals, no different than any other, and especially not special.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

It seems to me that we must live in a finite universe.... If our universe truly was infinite then all the possibilities outlined in this thread + an infinite amount of other possibilities would be certain to take place over an infinite amount of time.

Many would have heard the notion that given an infinite amount of time a chimpanzee would type out the complete works of Shakespeare, well in fact over an infinite time a chimpanzee would have written every book in every language ever.

Although counter intuitive, the notion of infinite time and space allows, possibly demands, a planet to exist called Earth where a Man called Jesus Christ was born.... And a planet called 'Mars' where he was born.

Science, just as Religion is littered with these paradoxes and thats OK. ... True Religions and Sciences are on a quest for understanding. They seek to answer the objective truths but with different languages. Science uses the language of math, whilst Religion seeks the truth through spiritual experience.

In my view both add to the breadth of our understanding.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 22, 2012)

To me, science is what we can actually experience in reality with our sense perceptions, religion is what we experience within our imagination without basis in this reality.


----------



## jessy koons (Jun 22, 2012)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> why the bible ? why not the quaran or any of the other holy books ? what makes the bible right and the others wrong ?because only 1 of them can be telling the truth ,


It seems more likely that none of them are telling the truth.


----------



## Doer (Jun 22, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> _However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
> 
> _



Well, here they go again with that self serving, "choosen people" business. At least we know slavery is OK for the most part. The Bible tells us so.


----------



## Doer (Jun 22, 2012)

jessy koons said:


> It seems more likely that none of them are telling the truth.


Or perhaps they all speack of the Truth and we can't handle the Truth. So, we make silly and dangerous cults about it?


----------



## Doer (Jun 22, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> To me, science is what we can actually experience in reality with our sense perceptions, religion is what we experience within our imagination without basis in this reality.


The only thing that makes, -us, our,- etc. is memory. Most folks think they are the same person from day to day. Others realize that is impossible. Our self is only the memories and we make new memories and wake up as a new self. We codified our memories of the day and that makes us new. If we accept only the science, then self is nothing. I really wanted to see what else was there besides all this bubbling of personal memory and calling that self.

By all the difinitions of self, when we stop thinking we do not exist. Not existing even for a second is vey cool, indeed. Just the experinece of that juxa is enough to realize there is more to this than science.


----------



## Dislexicmidget2021 (Jun 22, 2012)

[video=youtube;4iURp5xTo1U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iURp5xTo1U[/video]

check out 3:27 to 6:56, interesting story.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 22, 2012)

Doer, when the brain dies so does the organic material that sends the electrical signals to our brains to keep our memories from ceasing to exist. If our memories "die" when our brains do, wound that not also mean that "we" die too, if memory is what makes us, US?

Either way, this does not change the fact that science is what we can actually experience in reality with our sense perceptions (the closest we can get to what is real) and religion is what we experience within our imagination without basis in this reality (the closest we can get to what we _WANT_ to be real).

On a side note, i find it interesting that when people have near death experiences, it always ends in what they as an individual are emotionally attached to, or are emotionally afraid of.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

Doer said:


> Not existing even for a second is vey cool, indeed.


I couldn't think of anything less cool. Not something I would recommend.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Either way, this does not change the fact that science is what we can actually experience in reality with our sense perceptions (the closest we can get to what is real) and religion is what we experience within our imagination without basis in this reality (the closest we can get to what we _WANT_ to be real).


How can our subjective perceptions lead to an objective truth? 
The adage of seeing is believing can lead to all sorts of problems. Much of what we think we see or perceive is nothing more than a shimmering mirage.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 22, 2012)

Moebius said:


> I couldn't think of anything less cool. Not something I would recommend.


Meditation is ok... but nothing compared to high level dose of cubensis mushrooms or lsd, at some point in there i was sure i didn't exist anymore. But then if i didn't exist, how could i experience non existence? Weird...


----------



## Beefbisquit (Jun 22, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> If you set all science aside cn, and really think about the things humans are capable of spiritually and emotionally, you will see we have a soul. I think humans havings souls is the one and only thing that every religion agrees on. Without a soul we would just be organisms that live to die.


If we set all the science (tangible evidence) aside, completely ignore common sense, and everything we know about matter and energy; we can attribute mundane human characteristics to something we have no proof of, i.e., a soul.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 22, 2012)

Moebius said:


> How can our subjective perceptions lead to an objective truth?
> The adage of seeing is believing can lead to all sorts of problems. Much of what we think we see or perceive is nothing more than a shimmering mirage.


Our subjective perceptions (perceptions based on emotion) may lead to knew discoveries within science, but science does not offer truth as religion does. Religion offers truth only for those who will believe their IDEA without evidence, science offers the closest approximation to the truth with evidence to back up every single claim.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Meditation is ok... but nothing compared to high level dose of cubensis mushrooms or lsd, at some point in there i was sure i didn't exist anymore. But then if i didn't exist, how could i experience non existence? Weird...


not weird ... Youve stated the philosophical idea *Cogito ergo sum ... 'I think therefore I am'. 

*Within the philosophical concept proposed by Decartes was that all we can ever really know is that 'I' as the subjective individual exists.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 22, 2012)

What is weird is subjective at best... to each their own. Just because someone else in existence had the idea that because he thinks, he is... we can also take into consideration the idea that if you don't think, you aren't. But from others perceptive no matter how hard you do not think, you still are. Maybe not thinking is the closest way for us to get to not existing without ending our lives.

The only certainty i have in my existence, is that i really cannot be certain of anything.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> science offers the closest approximation to the truth with evidence to back up every single claim.


Approximation ? Either something is true or its is false. This is Logic.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 22, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Approximation ? Either something is true or its is false. This is Logic.



...I am approximately hosed, and it's 11:53 - fckn neighbors!  Where's the logic in that?! (just thought I'd inject a bit of humor here  )


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 22, 2012)

Doer said:


> Well, here they go again with that self serving, "choosen people" business. At least we know slavery is OK for the most part. The Bible tells us so.


It's not slavery; it's trickle-down citizenship. What; don't you love your country? cn


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 22, 2012)

Moebius said:


> How can our subjective perceptions lead to an objective truth?
> The adage of seeing is believing can lead to all sorts of problems. Much of what we think we see or perceive is nothing more than a shimmering mirage.


Even so, we take great solace and courage from the _consistency _of these impressions. It carries us through our day. (It's one of the reasons why i insist less on someone arguing with me to use fact and truth, and place a larger emphasis on consistency and being consequent.) cn


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 22, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...I am approximately hosed, and it's 11:53 - fckn neighbors!  Where's the logic in that?! (just thought I'd inject a bit of humor here  )


Be careful. Approximate hosing can lead to local irritation and lower GI complaints. Practice hosing crispness. cn


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 22, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Approximation ? Either something is true or its is false. This is Logic.


If it claimed it as truth, there would be no room for change, as everyone knows if it was the truth it would not change. Strings being the smallest piece of matter the human eye can see is the closest approximation to the truth as we know it, but there is always room for change as we delve deeper and deeper into the realm of quantum particles. We may come to find out someday that there are even smaller particles of matter within the strings that we did not know of before. 

Science deals with what is real regardless of what anyone thinks is true or false. Gravity for example is real regardless of what you think is true or false, you can easily test this by holding your lap top above your head and letting go. It doesn't matter what you believe, what you think, or what you want or don't want to be true or false... gravity just IS. 

The problem with religion/theology/spirituality/metaphysics is that these ideas can only ever be true or real if one "believes" Which does not make it true or real, *no matter how hard anyone believes in anything supernatural it does not make it true or real*. What makes something true or real is our ability to perceive these concepts with our sense perceptions. If we consider what is real anything other than what we can perceive with our senses... ANYTHING we imagine is real would be, which is not the case, but if you take a look around you this is exactly what billions of people do all the time. 

Science= the closest we can get to knowing and understanding truth, the closer we get to it the further it moves away, the more we must work and experiment to discover the secrets of the universe. -Hard (a means to infinite beginnings)

Religion= the truth that we make up in our imaginations with no base in reality that we believe for the sole reason of believing it because we want to. -Easy (a means to an end)

With science we are like donkeys, continuously walking towards the apple of truth which is tied to the pole in front of it, the closer the donkey gets the further away it becomes.

With religion we are like donkeys, standing in one spot, too deep within our own imagination pretending that we have the apple... when in reality we never even tried to take the first step towards it.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 22, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Be careful. Approximate hosing can lead to local irritation and lower GI complaints. Practice hosing crispness. cn



...as per many an RIU thread


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 22, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> If it claimed it as truth, there would be no room for change


...is evolution truth?


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 22, 2012)

I will admit to being only 26 years old and never got a college degree so I may be a little naive on some things and a lot ignorant on many others, It is just that I myself lack the ability to understand how belief is a conscious choice. Could somebody with more experience on the topic of brain functions/psychiatry or whatever it is that would allow someone to choose to believe something please explain to me how belief is a choice..?

I fail to grasp how actual belief is ever a persons choice... If you know of any studies that have been carried out on the topic or credible sources that support the claim that belief is a choice could you please post links or PM me with the details as I am happy to be proven wrong and willing to be educated...


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 22, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...is evolution truth?


An excellent illustration of why i think there's value in differentiating between truth and fact. cn


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 22, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> I will admit to being only 26 years old and never got a college degree so I may be a little naive on some things and a lot ignorant on many others, It is just that I myself lack the ability to understand how belief is a conscious choice. Could somebody with more experience on the topic of brain functions/psychiatry or whatever it is that would allow someone to choose to believe something please explain to me how belief is a choice..?
> 
> I fail to grasp how actual belief is ever a persons choice... If you know of any studies that have been carried out on the topic or credible sources that support the claim that belief is a choice could you please post links or PM me with the details as I am happy to be proven wrong and willing to be educated...


I hold the same belief. I came to the conclusion that faith, one's deep unshakable sense of how things are, is given and not made. My faith has changed its shape over the years, but as near as I can tell I witnessed that and didn't steer it. cn


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 22, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> I will admit to being only 26 years old and never got a college degree so I may be a little naive on some things and a lot ignorant on many others, It is just that I myself lack the ability to understand how belief is a conscious choice. Could somebody with more experience on the topic of brain functions/psychiatry or whatever it is that would allow someone to choose to believe something please explain to me how belief is a choice..?
> 
> I fail to grasp how actual belief is ever a persons choice... If you know of any studies that have been carried out on the topic or credible sources that support the claim that belief is a choice could you please post links or PM me with the details as I am happy to be proven wrong and willing to be educated...


...I agree that belief is not a choice. Though it is a conscious choice, it might only be recognized when it reaches the surface. The choice had been made prior.

...holy crap, I've just gone over this post of mine and found a ton of spelling errors.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 22, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> An excellent illustration of why i think there's value in differentiating between truth and fact. cn


This reply is much shorter and to the point than my paragraph explanation. Thanks Cn.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 22, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...is evolution truth?


Evolution is a fact of life... I think people get hung up on the we come from apes thing because they see apes and then go "well if we came from monkeys how come there are still monkeys"... that is the most common retarded comment I have heard from religious people through all my years...

I love the fact that with the study of DNA they have found small percentages of several different branches of humanity that evolved before and along side our homo sapien ancestors still living on in part through modern humans, even some of the pieces of DNA don't belong to any known hominid on record...


I wish I could post up links to back up my claims, but I can't... I watch a lot of documentaries and read a lot of sciency stuff on the internet and research things when I feel like it, but I hardly ever save links or remember names of books or documentaries that I watch, mainly because I only do it to satisfy my own curiosity...


----------



## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Jun 22, 2012)

the last thing im gonna say on this matter is , to ask the question , when do we get a soul? surely first you would have to demonstrate what a soul is and that it actually exists , otherwise its a pointless question .and a question that is allready assuming everyone agrees a soul exists , wich is incorrect .


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> Evolution is a fact of life... I think people get hung up on the we come from apes thing because they see apes and then go "well if we came from monkeys how come there are still monkeys"... that is the most common retarded comment I have heard from religious people through all my years...


To be honest I know plenty of dumbass people from any belief system who wouldnt give you the answer to that...... ignorance is ignorance in this case



> I love the fact that with the study of DNA they have found small percentages of several different branches of humanity that evolved before and along side our homo sapien ancestors still living on in part through modern humans, even some of the pieces of DNA don't belong to any known hominid on record...


I'm not sure what that means. Would need to read original text. I can say that all life so far found originated (as far as known) from a single cell. DNA code is shared amongst all life.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 22, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> Evolution is a fact of life... I think people get hung up on the we come from apes thing because they see apes and then go "well if we came from monkeys how come there are still monkeys"... that is the most common retarded comment I have heard from religious people through all my years...
> 
> I love the fact that with the study of DNA they have found small percentages of several different branches of humanity that evolved before and along side our homo sapien ancestors still living on in part through modern humans, even some of the pieces of DNA don't belong to any known hominid on record...
> 
> ...


...I was saying that evolution 'is truth'. I have no doubt about what I can see. Who came up with the idea in the first place? I guess that's where I'm at.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> I have no doubt about what I can see.









appears to move both clockwise and counter-clockwise


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 22, 2012)

Some observant person that was curious about the workings of the natural world I imagine...


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 22, 2012)

Moebius said:


> I'm not sure what that means. Would need to read original text. I can say that all life so far found originated (as far as known) from a single cell. DNA code is shared amongst all life.


It would be more accurate to say a single _type _of cell. Natural selection works on populations and we now know that many single cells can transfer and share genetic material without creating a new cell.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 22, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...I was saying that evolution 'is truth'. I have no doubt about what I can see. Who came up with the idea in the first place? I guess that's where I'm at.


Maybe the idea ... just ... ohnevermind.  cn


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> It would be more accurate to say a single _type _of cell. Natural selection works on populations and we now know that many single cells can transfer and share genetic material without creating a new cell.


No, I meant a single cell. All life originated from a single parent cell. ..... analogous to the singularity of Big bang theorem

again one of the unanswerables


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 22, 2012)

Moebius said:


> No, I meant a single cell. All life originated from a single parent cell. ..... analogous the the singularity of Big bang theorem


It's quite possible that several independent lines merged at separate reverse-branching points to produce the index lifeform that underlies our current tree of life. That would be not singular, and at this time there's no way to reconstruct that part of biogenesis. cn


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> It's quite possible that several independent lines merged at separate reverse-branching points to produce the index lifeform that underlies our current tree of life. That would be not singular, and at this time there's no way to reconstruct that part of biogenesis. cn


I understand and concur.

I retract that .... Im still unpicking the wordage.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

There are lots of theories of the origin from Panspermia to Abiogenesis to the garden of Eden. I should say I believe its probable that it originated from a single cell.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 22, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Maybe the idea ... just ... ohnevermind.  cn


...you're getting lots of likes from me lately, totally nuts


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 22, 2012)

Moebius said:


> appears to move both clockwise and counter-clockwise


...persssssssssssssspective


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 22, 2012)

Moebius said:


> There are lots of theories of the origin from Panspermia to Abiogenesis to the garden of Eden. I should say I believe its probable that it originated from a single cell.


Yet most scientists that study this problem disagree with your assessment. Horizontal gene transfer relegates the hypothesis of a single cell for all life quite improbable.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 22, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...you're getting lots of likes from me lately, totally nuts


I'm not complaining! cn


----------



## jessy koons (Jun 22, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...is evolution truth?


Does truth evolve?


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 22, 2012)

jessy koons said:


> Does truth evolve?


Truth is a human concept. Facts evolve with new evidence and what's objectively true relies on those facts.


----------



## Doer (Jun 22, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> It's not slavery; it's trickle-down citizenship. What; don't you love your country? cn


We trickle down to all who reach the shore, even the chosen, but it seems a lot more like Amimal Farm or Brave New World, than the Bible, to me.


----------



## Doer (Jun 22, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Doer, when the brain dies so does the organic material that sends the electrical signals to our brains to keep our memories from ceasing to exist. If our memories "die" when our brains do, wound that not also mean that "we" die too, if memory is what makes us, US?
> 
> Either way, this does not change the fact that science is what we can actually experience in reality with our sense perceptions (the closest we can get to what is real) and religion is what we experience within our imagination without basis in this reality (the closest we can get to what we _WANT_ to be real).
> 
> (ditto near death fear emotions).


Science is good. I have mixed feelings about religion in the scope of history, as a force of history. But, I can see what they are trying to express when I go the root of the religions. And I can see what us pitiful monkey brains can do with that. I'm not at all concerned with "after death." Everything that is me, will be gone. No chance identity will survive. Perpostous indeed, to think there is anything but Now. 

Yes, the is no identity, it's memory, and will have to cease. Perhaps, quantum science somehow can show non-physical information persistence. Still there is the "I'm dead" problem.

I believe it was you who mention, in trippy, that though mindless and thoughtless there was still awareness of Self. 

Can you imagine Self with no Identity, no Physicality, non-Causal? Can we imagine self awareness, uncoupled?


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Truth is a human concept. Facts evolve with new evidence and what's objectively true relies on those facts.


The truth is what lies behind the curtain at the end of the yellow brick road.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 22, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Truth is a human concept. Facts evolve with new evidence and what's objectively true relies on those facts.


Plus Rep, well said Pad. Impressed.


----------



## Doer (Jun 22, 2012)

I can't help but think there is another kind of Truth. And what else is there but human concepts?

If we turn on a light in the room, everyone can see. But, we still can't define exactly what is illuminated and how this uncertainty can exist. So, that kind of Truth is not scientific fact. I can simply explain the revelation of the room somewhat, within known science. The Truth/Room is still Present.

I sometimes wonder, what if there was Proof of God? A scientific basis that explains the entire puzzle of what created us, and guides us and guards us. Many would say, yes, that is God. Un-deniable. It is God.

And many would say, no. That just proves that the universe or a giant space alien is Omin-All, it created us, it loves us and has the power to shape our lives. Not God.

We are only hunan concepts with big dreams.


----------



## Jogro (Jun 22, 2012)

If you believe in such a thing as a "soul" it *HAS* to be imbued into the baby at conception. 

That's when the baby develops its own unique DNA signature, and becomes its own living thing (not "independent" per se, but certainly "alive"). 

It can't be at "birth" because the baby doesn't "know" when its going to be born. In fact, pretty much at any point in time after 34 week, the baby "could" be born, with a C-section at the least.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

Doer said:


> That just proves that the universe or a giant space alien is Omin-All, it created us, it loves us and has the power to shape our lives. Not God.
> 
> We are only hunan concepts with big dreams.


I've heard of the Hunans. They're badass


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 22, 2012)

Doer said:


> *I can't help but think there is another kind of Truth.* And what else is there but human concepts?


That is the basis of human faith imo/ime.


> If we turn on a light in the room, everyone can see. But, we still can't define exactly what is illuminated and how this uncertainty can exist. So, that kind of Truth is not scientific fact. I can simply explain the revelation of the room somewhat, within known science. The Truth/Room is still Present.
> 
> I sometimes wonder, what if there was Proof of God? A scientific basis that explains the entire puzzle of what created us, and guides us and guards us. Many would say, yes, that is God. Un-deniable. It is God.
> 
> ...


 ~can't resist~
I'm more Szechwan myself. cn


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

I can tell you someone who's praying now for sure, Jerry Sandusky.... Jury verdict due in minutes.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 22, 2012)

He was unclear on the concept: "suffer the little children". cn


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> He was unclear on the concept: "suffer the little children". cn


ouch! ...... the wit is cutting. lol


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

Doer said:


> Omin-All


Omni means all so this phrase means 'All-All'.... cool


----------



## Moebius (Jun 22, 2012)

Like when people say ATM Machine. ... Automated Teller Machine Machine... wtf? LOL


----------



## Doer (Jun 22, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Omni means all so this phrase means 'All-All'.... cool


That's the name of the space alien, although I think it's Mr. Alien, to us.


----------



## tyler.durden (Jun 23, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> All that blabber and you still never answered my question lol What is it that you gain, Heis? Who benefits from your arguments against the logic of spirituality and theism?


Many people read through these threads, far more than those who actually participate in them. Some of these non-posting lurkers are receiving new information and concepts from our posts, and may be in the process of forming/reforming their own beliefs. It would be a shame if all they got to read was a bunch of groundless, irrational, unopposed bullshit. I, for one, get a good feeling inserting some rationality and actual facts and knowledge into the mix, esp. when the BS meter gets into the red zone. I feel that this way, these people get to look at both sides and I'm confident that the rational bits will stand out among the fuzzy, feel good 'Let's all play make believe' concepts asserted as truth. To paraphrase a great thinker, 'All that is necessary for the triumph of bullshit is that rational men to do nothing...'


----------



## Doer (Jun 23, 2012)

"Who benefits from your arguments against the logic of spirituality and theism?"

I could turn that right around, but I won't. I'll just say, really, there is no such thing as theo-logic. There is logic and there is theism.

Those that claim expertise in the the theological line are attempting, (improperly, imo,) to apply frail, human logic to a question that is by definition beyond thinking mind, and thus completely beyond logic.


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 23, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> All that blabber and you still never answered my question lol What is it that you gain, Heis? Who benefits from your arguments against the logic of spirituality and theism?


The better question would seem to be who isn't benefiting from my commentary, of which the numbers seem to be restricted to only you. At least you are the only one complaining, the same way you complain about anything ever said that you don't agree with. Most of the things you say are stupid, and rather than refine your stance and better represent your views, you just want others to stop pointing out that it's stupid. Very few people have called you a stupid person, just your arguments and style. Most of us have refrained from personal attacks on you because rather than celebrate your stupidity, we want to help you overcome it, so we try to guide. Your attitude and bigot glasses cause you to see this as arrogant mocking, which it eventually turns into out of exasperation on our part. 

To mis-remember a Sagan quote, Every question is a cry for understanding, an attempt for a person to understand their world and their place in it. We do not mock you for simply wanting to understand your world and yourself. All of us try to, and all of us get it wrong, very wrong, at least sometimes. Life is a vast, unintuitive and confusing struggle. If not for the benefit of wisdom and recorded memory, we would not get far on our quest for security and comfort. Confusion and error would rule, and we would spend most of our life in a fog of futility. This is the key to transitioning from the shallow end of life into deeper waters. Without a moral compass to guide, without principals and conviction to give you integrity, you will get lost at sea and torn apart by the waves. If your only integrity comes from the facade of pretending to have answers and understanding, you are gonna drown, and to break the analogy, what I mean is, you are going to spend life being a burden to others, delegating your hardships to loved ones, and eventually die unhappy and alone, never fully realizing the true beauty of life or of your own mind. This is how most of us view the situation around here, and what you see as arrogance attacks from a high horse are actually compassionate attempts to help overcomes life's struggle.

I don't understand how you can exist being okay with prejudice, since you obviously understand the concept when it comes to native americans. You are certainly capable of logical and articulate thought, yet you seem to have no interest what so ever in applying that scrutiny to yourself, and behave quite irrationally when others do it for you. I can understand if you just don't want to hear it, but you seem to want to be listened to. From what I can gather you want to be able to speak your opinion unopposed and without honest review, but in reality, what happens is you just ask others to listen to you regurgitate the opinions and information you've heard elsewhere and identified with, and like a spoiled coddled child you don't want to hear any deconstruction that could make you feel conflicted, because, wading in the kiddie pool as you do, you do not know how to handle deeper waters. You respond the only way your unsorted, confused and disorganized mind knows how, which is to go on the attack, and quite frankly, the attacks themselves are quite disorganized and sloppy, because again, you've never bothered to form your own opinion, so you do not know how to defend the things you say. You will go through life learning only the things you want to learn, which since you have not taken the time to shape and convict your values, amounts to subjects which arouse mental masturbation. It's mindful self indulgence that will leave you lost and scared when life decides for you that you are not a child anymore.

When someone attacks the opinions I have, I do not get scared or self conscious at all. That is because I am not just repeating some stuff that sounded cool and kinda made sense, I am telling you the views I have arrived at after careful thought, and because I have been careful and exhaustive in examining my own beliefs, I can easily knock down your arguments against them. I do not need to result to invalid appeals and desperate attacks, and nether do you if you would simply be conscientious about the things you say. That _does not_ mean changing your views to fit mine, it simply means examining your views, understanding what they are and why you arrived at them, and being able to explain it. One of the ways you do this is to explain your view and listen to others who have had different experiences and exposures than you, and adjust accordingly. During the times I find I am unable to defend something I say, I do not react like a drunk rodeo clown to distract others from the mistake. I see it as a chance to refine my views and make them more ironclad than before. That's what I did here, and that is why I get respect, and likes, and why I know I can count on my own inner convictions to get me through the horrible parts of life. Not only can I tread deeper waters, I can swim through storms and turbulence to reach the only destination which truly brings contentment, personal fulfillment.


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 23, 2012)

tl;dr







j/k


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 23, 2012)

tl;dr indeed lol


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 23, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> tl;dr indeed lol



Ah so you didn't really want an answer. You were simply presenting the question for the ad hominem value, and nothing more.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 23, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Ah so you didn't really want an answer. You were simply presenting the question for the ad hominem value, and nothing more.


Nah I knew your answer, you just needed a day or two to think of a different answer that doesnt have to do with self satisfaction. Because really, self satisfaction is all that comes out of your responses. No theist (except Hep) has ever benefited from what you know-it-alls have to say. Your input on spiritual discussions only benefits yourself and your ego to further convince yourself that you have a better grasp on reality than theists do. Self satisfaction and pointless, endless arguments are the results of your input. Nothing more.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 23, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Ah so you didn't really want an answer. You were simply presenting the question for the ad hominem value, and nothing more.


...why did I feel like posting this all of a sudden


----------



## tyler.durden (Jun 23, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Nah I knew your answer, you just needed a day or two to think of a different answer that doesnt have to do with self satisfaction. Because really, self satisfaction is all that comes out of your responses. *No theist (except Hep) has ever benefited from what you know-it-alls have to say.* Your input on spiritual discussions only benefits yourself and your ego to further convince yourself that you have a better grasp on reality than theists do. Self satisfaction and pointless, endless arguments are the results of your input. Nothing more.


How would you know this? Seems silly to assume that every theist who reads these threads feel as you do. Besides, even if other theists don't benefit, I'm sure many others do. I agree with your point that it feels good to defend reason and rationality, it may feel similar to how good you feel attempting to spread your inane bullshit and playground imaginings. Or is your own motive not ego fulfillment and self satisfaction? Do you really imagine that you are sharing valuable knowledge that will improve people's lives and the state of the world? Come to think of it, I bet you do. Infinitely amusing...


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 23, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...why did I feel like posting this all of a sudden


That puts me into an excited state. cn


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm diggin' the new avatars fellas


----------



## tyler.durden (Jun 23, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> I'm diggin' the new avatars fellas


I was thinking the same thing last week. Saw Hep and a couple others morph, then got a little scared after I read an insightful Heis post and glanced up at the new avatar. Just went through the last of some long drama in court, and feel so much lighter. It's like seeing the world through rose-colored glasses


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 23, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Nah I knew your answer, you just needed a day or two to think of a different answer that doesnt have to do with self satisfaction. Because really, self satisfaction is all that comes out of your responses. No theist (except Hep) has ever benefited from what you know-it-alls have to say. Your input on spiritual discussions only benefits yourself and your ego to further convince yourself that you have a better grasp on reality than theists do. Self satisfaction and pointless, endless arguments are the results of your input. Nothing more.


So you reject the words that you didn't read in favor of more ad hominem ammo. Such is the privilege of living inside the bubble I guess.

If you already knew the answer, then why did you ask, twice, if not for the attack contained within?


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 23, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> So you reject the words that you didn't read in favor of more ad hominem ammo. Such is the price of living inside the bubble I guess.


Living inside a bubble lol I say this too much on this site... OH THE IRONY!


----------



## Moebius (Jun 23, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> That puts me into an excited state. cn


..... said one electron to the other.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 23, 2012)

Moebius said:


> ..... said one electron to the other.


Positive? ~unmelodious cackle~ cn


----------



## Moebius (Jun 23, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Positive? ~unmelodious cackle~ cn


Certain! ... you can have that one, free of charge.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 23, 2012)

Bazingga...


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 24, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Living inside a bubble lol I say this too much on this site... OH THE IRONY!


I listen to you, take your words seriously, and give you honest review. I treat you as if the things you have to say are worth listening to. You stick your fingers in your ears and chant "arrogant scientists" in between insults. One is the result of genuine communication, the other is a person who is scared to have their bubble burst. The only support you have mustered here is from a homophobic christian Bigfoot enthusiast.

Cowardice and ignorance are rarely concealed by stubborn stupidity, but i'm sure you'll keep trying.


----------



## Moebius (Jun 24, 2012)

heisenberg said:


> i listen to you, take your words seriously, and give you honest review. I treat you as if the things you have to say are worth listening to. You stick your fingers in your ears and chant "arrogant scientists" in between insults. One is the result of genuine communication, the other is a person who is scared to have their bubble burst. The only support you have mustered here is from a homophobic christian bigfoot enthusiast.
> 
> Cowardice and ignorance are rarely concealed by stubborn stupidity, but i'm sure you'll keep trying.


........ Boom!........


----------



## Doer (Jun 24, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Nah I knew your answer, you just needed a day or two to think of a different answer that doesnt have to do with self satisfaction. Because really, self satisfaction is all that comes out of your responses. No theist (except Hep) has ever benefited from what you know-it-alls have to say. Your input on spiritual discussions only benefits yourself and your ego to further convince yourself that you have a better grasp on reality than theists do. Self satisfaction and pointless, endless arguments are the results of your input. Nothing more.


Folks don't we all go wrong when we think we need to defend a position? When we are defensive, we get a bit concerend. We want our vews understood, but mentally we are unable to find the soild point of Self that alone is unassialable. Self cannot take a postion to be overrun. Self is way above all that.

To me, to be Now is to be in the middle of life. In life, but not a slave to opinion, not of this life, just in it. From here we can discuss interesting topics without rancour and right-fight insults. Yes?


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 24, 2012)

Doer said:


> Folks don't we all go wrong when we think we need to defend a position? When we are defensive, we get a bit concerend. We want our vews understood, but mentally we are unable to find the soild point of Self that alone is unassialable. Self cannot take a postion to be overrun. Self is way above all that.
> 
> To me, to be Now is to be in the middle of life. In life, but not a slave to opinion, not of this life, just in it. From here we can discuss interesting topics without rancour and right-fight insults. Yes?


Maybe later. cn


----------



## Doer (Jun 24, 2012)

No, Now. dr


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 24, 2012)

Bear with me. cn


----------



## Doer (Jun 24, 2012)

I mis-spelled that.

Know Now.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 24, 2012)

My Zen baker has day-old Now on a rack; half off. But it's always empty. I ask him when there'll be some (I'm a cheap bastard) and he winks and says "try later". So what do I do now? cn


----------



## Doer (Jun 24, 2012)

Know Now.  Eat later?


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 24, 2012)




----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 24, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> I listen to you, take your words seriously, and give you honest review. I treat you as if the things you have to say are worth listening to. You stick your fingers in your ears and chant "arrogant scientists" in between insults. One is the result of genuine communication, the other is a person who is scared to have their bubble burst. The only support you have mustered here is from a homophobic christian Bigfoot enthusiast.
> 
> Cowardice and ignorance are rarely concealed by stubborn stupidity, but i'm sure you'll keep trying.


My "Bubble" will never burst man. I think you are just angry at the people that have different "Bubbles" than you, maybe its because they put a lot more things in their bubbles and you dont see how those things can fit. "This fellow is putting things in his bubble that dont comply with scientific reasoning, skepticism, and my view of rationality, how dare he?! I must tell him how the world works according to my point of view and I shall shrink his bubble down to the size of mine".


----------



## Moebius (Jun 24, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> My "Bubble" will never burst man. I think you are just angry at the people that have different "Bubbles" than you, maybe its because they put a lot more things in their bubbles and you dont see how those things can fit. "This fellow is putting things in his bubble that dont comply with scientific reasoning, skepticism, and my view of rationality, how dare he?! I must tell him how the world works according to my point of view and I shall shrink his bubble down to the size of mine".


Wow .. thats a lot of bubbles.


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 24, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> My "Bubble" will never burst man. I think you are just angry at the people that have different "Bubbles" than you, maybe its because they put a lot more things in their bubbles and you dont see how those things can fit. "This fellow is putting things in his bubble that dont comply with scientific reasoning, skepticism, and my view of rationality, how dare he?! I must tell him how the world works according to my point of view and I shall shrink his bubble down to the size of mine".



tl;dr


5more


----------



## Moebius (Jun 24, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Do humans acquire a soul at the moment of conception, or birth? Or sometime between then? Or when? Im conflicted by this question all the time.


The question should be ... How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 24, 2012)

Moebius said:


> The question should be ... How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?


Three. cn


----------



## Moebius (Jun 25, 2012)

*If you have come to this thread by hitting the 'last' tab this is what we have concluded after +530 posts.

When do you get a soul?
You get a soul on the second Sunday after initial intercourse has taken place. This period is reduced by 3 days if the mother is a virgin.

Thank you .... The end*


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 26, 2012)

Moebius said:


> *If you have come to this thread by hitting the 'last' tab this is what we have concluded after +530 posts.
> 
> When do you get a soul?
> You get a soul on the second Sunday after initial intercourse has taken place. This period is reduced by 3 days if the mother is a virgin.
> ...


You have to give the 3 days back at the other end. It evens out. cn


----------



## dashcues (Jun 26, 2012)

Moebius said:


> *If you have come to this thread by hitting the 'last' tab this is what we have concluded after +530 posts.
> 
> When do you get a soul?
> You get a soul on the second Sunday after initial intercourse has taken place. This period is reduced by 3 days if the mother is a virgin.
> ...


Have to check my receipt,but I think mine came on the *third* Sunday.Is it still valid?


----------



## Moebius (Jun 26, 2012)

dashcues said:


> Have to check my receipt,but I think mine came on the *third* Sunday.Is it still valid?



A soul is not given to a fetus for a further week if;

1. Parents engaged in anal sex prior to insemination.
2. One or both parents had ginger hair.
3. Parents voted Republican/Conservative.


----------



## jessy koons (Jun 26, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> My "Bubble" will never burst man. I think you are just angry at the people that have different "Bubbles" than you, maybe its because they put a lot more things in their bubbles and you dont see how those things can fit. "This fellow is putting things in his bubble that dont comply with scientific reasoning, skepticism, and my view of rationality, how dare he?! I must tell him how the world works according to my point of view and I shall shrink his bubble down to the size of mine".


The only bubbles of quality that I make are produced during my daily bath. I don't believe these bubbles have anything to do with anyone's soul though it is possible that I'm creating new souls as I wash. Could this be?


----------



## Doer (Jun 26, 2012)

I prefer to think of it as beer suds. Each bubble is self contained and is only beer on the outside. On the inside is a unique mixture of gasses.
One bubble can guess what the other is like. Looks like beer suds to me! Soull, mole, holy roll, who cares?

But, there is no way to know how that bubble is diffenent, how much and in what ways. That would busrt the bubble. Alter the experinment. Inject Uncertainty. All bubbles tend to rise, some rise the the top. In the end we all are burst.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 26, 2012)

Doer said:


> I prefer to think of it as beer suds. Each bubble is self contained and is only beer on the outside. On the inside is a unique mixture of gasses.
> One bubble can guess what the other is like. Looks like beer suds to me! Soull, mole, holy roll, who cares?
> 
> But, there is no way to know how that bubble is diffenent, how much and in what ways. That would busrt the bubble. Alter the experinment. Inject Uncertainty. All bubbles tend to rise, some rise the the top. In the end we all are burst.


...that's gushed-up!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jun 26, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> I listen to you, take your words seriously, and give you honest review. I treat you as if the things you have to say are worth listening to. You stick your fingers in your ears and chant "arrogant scientists" in between insults. One is the result of genuine communication, the other is a person who is scared to have their bubble burst. The only support you have mustered here is from a homophobic christian Bigfoot enthusiast.
> 
> Cowardice and ignorance are rarely concealed by stubborn stupidity, but i'm sure you'll keep trying.



God, souls, heaven .... we all have our views on these topics, and we will continue to disagree no matter the evidence placed at our feet.

What we all share is time. There is a finite amount of it for each of us on this planet, and it is without question our most valuable possession. I often fail at this (and remind myself daily of it's importance), but I try not to waste my time whenever possible. It seems as though you are doing just that, Heis. 

It's safe to say at this point, after reading your well thought out responses, and the shit that is flung back at you in return, that you are not going to impact CWE. He does not seem receptive to learning, changing, or growing. That's his prerogative, and there is nothing wrong with that .... I would just caution you not to waste any more of your time on it.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 26, 2012)

st0wandgrow said:


> God, souls, heaven .... we all have our views on these topics, and we will continue to disagree no matter the evidence placed at our feet.
> 
> What we all share is time. There is a finite amount of it for each of us on this planet, and it is without question our most valuable possession. I often fail at this (and remind myself daily of it's importance), but I try not to waste my time whenever possible. It seems as though you are doing just that, Heis.
> 
> It's safe to say at this point, after reading your well thought out responses, and the shit that is flung back at you in return, that you are not going to impact CWE. He does not seem receptive to learning, changing, or growing. That's his prerogative, and there is nothing wrong with that .... I would just caution you not to waste any more of your time on it.


Thank you..


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

st0wandgrow said:


> God, souls, heaven .... we all have our views on these topics, and we will continue to disagree no matter the evidence placed at our feet.
> 
> What we all share is time. There is a finite amount of it for each of us on this planet, and it is without question our most valuable possession. I often fail at this (and remind myself daily of it's importance), but I try not to waste my time whenever possible. It seems as though you are doing just that, Heis.
> 
> It's safe to say at this point, after reading your well thought out responses, and the shit that is flung back at you in return, that you are not going to impact CWE. He does not seem receptive to learning, changing, or growing. That's his prerogative, and there is nothing wrong with that .... I would just caution you not to waste any more of your time on it.


I like to hear what heis has to say. And I have a feeling that CWE is learning. He just won't admit it. That's why he gets mad when you tell him the truth. He doesn't want to hear it.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I like to hear what heis has to say. And I have a feeling that CWE is learning. He just won't admit it. That's why he gets mad when you tell him the truth. He doesn't want to hear it.


I already know the truth man. Its the skeptics that get mad when truth is claimed to something like "god". They think "If science and skeptics dont know, how could anyone else know? Thy must be lying to themselves".


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> I already know the truth man. Its the skeptics that get mad when truth is claimed to something like "god". They think "If science and skeptics dont know, how could anyone else know? Thy must be lying to themselves".


Like I've said before, I used to have a religion. I had strong beliefs. I know what goes on in the world without logic. I was lying to myself then. How can I be lying to myself now that I follow what's true? 


Also, _we_ don't get mad. Maybe some skeptics do but you can't group us all together. 

And what truth is claimed for a god? Did you get a hair sample?


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Like I've said before, I used to have a religion. I had strong beliefs. I know what goes on in the world without logic. I was lying to myself then. How can I be lying to myself now that I follow what's true?
> 
> 
> Also, _we_ don't get mad. Maybe some skeptics do but you can't group us all together.
> ...


Smoke some DMT and ask important life questions to the angelic being that you think is a hallucination


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Smoke some DMT and ask important life questions to the angelic being that you think is a hallucination


You get to speak with your inner consciousness when you smoke DMT? I can never recall myself being able to speak while tripping. It's always just lessons being impacted in my mind. Also, the hallucinations have never told me that they're god or have a master plan. It's more of a sense of yourself..


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Like I've said before, I used to have a religion. I had strong beliefs. I know what goes on in the world without logic. I was lying to myself then. How can I be lying to myself now that I follow what's true?
> 
> 
> Also, _we_ don't get mad. Maybe some skeptics do but you can't group us all together.
> ...


Youve been brainwashed and tricked down the wrong path. Remember when satan tempted jesus? Thats what happened to you except you werent strong enough to resist. Your lost for now, hopefully you can be saved again bro.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 26, 2012)

Science can not disprove that the universe was created by a high power/being... and it also can't prove it...

I believe in God. Not the god of the Israelites, Not the Holy Trinity of the Christians or the Norse gods or Greek, or any other particular flawed representation of what is to my belief the one true god...


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Youve been brainwashed and tricked down the wrong path. Remember when satan tempted jesus? Thats what happened to you except you werent strong enough to resist. Your lost for now, hopefully you can be saved again bro.


I do appreciate your sympathy. But I'm fine dude.

Who is "satan" in my scenario?


----------



## Scrotie Mcboogerballs (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> You get to speak with your inner consciousness when you smoke DMT? I can never recall myself being able to speak while tripping. It's always just lessons being impacted in my mind. Also, the hallucinations have never told me that they're god or have a master plan. It's more of a sense of yourself..


Exactly. And therefore I realized that we are all our own gods.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

Scrotie Mcboogerballs said:


> Exactly. And therefore I realized that we are all our own gods.


Why do we have to be "gods" though? Why can't we just be the awesome humans that we already are?


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I do appreciate your sympathy. But I'm fine dude.
> 
> Who is "satan" in my scenario?


I'm guessing it is the same Robots that that Chief Walking Eagle (Did I get it right..?) was talking about... But I could be wrong...


----------



## Scrotie Mcboogerballs (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Why do we have to be "gods" though? Why can't we just be the awesome humans that we already are?


it's just the term that i used because whenever i look at the bible, what i pull out from it is just guidelines on how to be a descent human being really. nothing more. so when i think of being at your perfection, i think of being god like. Idk . . . opinions, opinions blah blah . . .


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 26, 2012)

Scrotie Mcboogerballs said:


> Exactly. And therefore I realized that we are all our own gods.


Exactly, we are just very inexperienced gods.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> I'm guessing it is the same Robots that that Chief Walking Eagle (Did I get it right..?) was talking about... But I could be wrong...


I think they're the same person.. Just throwing that out there .


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

Scrotie Mcboogerballs said:


> it's just the term that i used because whenever i look at the bible, what i pull out from it is just guidelines on how to be a descent human being really. nothing more. so when i think of being at your perfection, i think of being god like. Idk . . . opinions, opinions blah blah . . .


I like your _opinion, _some religions have very good teachings. The bible does give some good tips every now and then. 

Perfection is like DMT.. You are completely natural in that state of mind. No worries about society or media. It's a great feeling. But I think the feeling is just myself being a true human. But yes, "opinions, opinions blah blah" .


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 26, 2012)

I'm not sure about that Heph... I think they're just regular old crazies like me...


----------



## Scrotie Mcboogerballs (Jun 26, 2012)

Crazy? . . I haven't been crazy for a year.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 26, 2012)

Yeah Scrotie, That's what you think...


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 26, 2012)

urrbody crazeh.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 26, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> urrbody crazeh.


I think this is the first post of yours that I have read that I kind of agree with...


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 26, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> I think this is the first post of yours that I have read that I kind of agree with...


Pfft, what do you know, you crazeh =p


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 26, 2012)

But I accept the fact that I am... I don't hide behind my crazy, or pretend it isn't there, I acknowledge it and take this ride called life alongside with it...


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 26, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> But I accept the fact that I am... I don't hide behind my crazy, or pretend it isn't there, I acknowledge it and take this ride called life alongside with it...


...the ride is equally nutbar


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I do appreciate your sympathy. But I'm fine dude.
> 
> Who is "satan" in my scenario?


Whoever convinced you to stop believing.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Whoever convinced you to stop believing.


So the bible is satan?


----------



## Scrotie Mcboogerballs (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> So the bible is satan?


hehehe . . . thats' funny.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> So the bible is satan?


Utter blasphemy. If u take the bible in a literal sense of course it might not make sense, but its not be taken literaly. The bible is full of metaphors and parables for people to learn lessons from.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Utter blasphemy. If u take the bible in a literal sense of course it might not make sense, but its not be taken literaly. The bible is full of metaphors and parables for people to learn lessons from.


So who's to say what is and isn't a metaphor in the bible? 


Yeah.. If christianity proved true in the end, I'd be absolutely fucked..


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 26, 2012)

Hep.

I've heard it's healthy to _circulate_ ideas within oneself, as opposed to entertaining lopsided shifts.

Consider a person who has a radical shift to religion and goes over the deep end - starts handing out Bibles to passing cars, etc...dangerous stuff, to be sure  From your new perspective, what would your best assessment of that person's state of mind be?


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> So who's to say what is and isn't a metaphor in the bible?
> 
> 
> Yeah.. If christianity proved true in the end, I'd be absolutely fucked..


Im not saying that Christianity is right, because alot of the time its not. But to deny god in his entirety is blasphemy. God existed long before christianity, the christian church was something made by man, not god. I dont belong to any one religion, I just believe in what is right. I was raised christian but over time I realized not all of it made sense, but I didnt start denying it flat out. And yes your right, if christianity is somehow 100% truth you are fucked.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 26, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> And yes your right, if christianity is somehow 100% truth you are fucked.


...well, then we're all fckd.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 26, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...well, then we're all fckd.


Not true. Everybody has a chance at redemption.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 26, 2012)

A christian heaven doesnt sound fun at all. First you gotta seek approval from a judgmental god, then you gotta praise jesus and sing stupid songs to him for all eternity. I'd much rather see what the devil is up to...
Thats if the bible was true word-for-word.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 26, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Not true. Everybody has a chance at redemption.


...did I just hear "neeeext"? 

...dude, the 'background' of my existence is God when it is not the 'foreground' of my existence. Don't tell me, or anyone else, what God thinks. Neither you or I know what God 'thinks'.

No offense. Do you think it wise to tell people they'd be fckd because of how they lived their lives?

Would you like for me to prune that tree that's blocking your vision?



Even if it is so, I shudder at the thought of 'facilitating judgment'.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 26, 2012)

No matter what you believe about the divine, "blasphemy" is a purely human concept and a cornerstone of some of the worst religion has to offer. My opinion. cn


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 26, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> No matter what you believe about the divine, "blasphemy" is a purely human concept and a cornerstone of some of the worst religion has to offer. My opinion. cn


...I think blasphemy is a cellular thing. The propagation of negative influence in the body. Usually brought on by hate. I also don't know if history and religion mix well in the telling. To be honest, I'd say a lot of that was related to cultural wars. Pissing matches and name calling eventually led to a term being misappropriated as 'spiritual currency'.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Im not saying that Christianity is right, because alot of the time its not. But to deny god in his entirety is blasphemy. God existed long before christianity, the christian church was something made by man, not god. I dont belong to any one religion, I just believe in what is right. I was raised christian but over time I realized not all of it made sense, but I didnt start denying it flat out. And yes your right, if christianity is somehow 100% truth you are fucked.


What held/holds you back from denying it flat out? 

I have prayed for god to visit me in my dreams, the only religious dreams I've ever had were filled with hell fire. If god has to count on my beliefs so bad, why doesn't he come visit me and have a cup of tea? Or wine 

I believe in what is right too. I like morals, they keep me happy. 

If christianity is real, I'd like to meet you in person sometime in hell.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Not true. Everybody has a chance at redemption.


But nobody will jump on it.. We can all be peaceful loving humans, but nobody will put all their effort into helping world peace.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> What held/holds you back from denying it flat out?
> 
> I have prayed for god to visit me in my dreams, the only religious dreams I've ever had were filled with hell fire. If god has to count on my beliefs so bad, why doesn't he come visit me and have a cup of tea? Or wine
> 
> ...


Any god who would require a sound ass-kissing does not earn my respect. Worship (in the Western idiom) is such a human conceit. cn


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> A christian heaven doesnt sound fun at all. First you gotta seek approval from a judgmental god, then you gotta praise jesus and sing stupid songs to him for all eternity. I'd much rather see what the devil is up to...
> Thats if the bible was true word-for-word.


If the bible was true, I highly doubt you'd wanna visit the devil. You'd probably crap your pants and run to god's knees. It would only be natural.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> But nobody will jump on it.. We can all be peaceful loving humans, but nobody will put all their effort into helping world peace.










*may have been previously posted in T&T


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 26, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...I think blasphemy is a cellular thing. The propagation of negative influence in the body. Usually brought on by hate. I also don't know if history and religion mix well in the telling. To be honest, I'd say a lot of that was related to cultural wars. Pissing matches and name calling eventually led to a term being misappropriated as 'spiritual currency'.


I had a mental flash on the effectively metastatic proliferation of cellular towers. The End is nigh. cn


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 26, 2012)

Polar bear bath salts??? cn


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...I think blasphemy is a cellular thing. The propagation of negative influence in the body. Usually brought on by hate. I also don't know if history and religion mix well in the telling. To be honest, I'd say a lot of that was related to cultural wars. Pissing matches and name calling eventually led to a term being misappropriated as 'spiritual currency'.


I kind of agree with you. When I started leaving my religion, I had a strange feeling that made me want to blaspheme religion. Pure anger. Not a good thing.


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 26, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Im not saying that Christianity is right, because alot of the time its not. But to deny god in his entirety is blasphemy. God existed long before christianity, the christian church was something made by man, not god. I dont belong to any one religion, I just believe in what is right. I was raised christian but over time I realized not all of it made sense, but I didnt start denying it flat out. And yes your right, if christianity is somehow 100% truth you are fucked.


Denying the flying spaghetti monster is blasphemy. You're a blasphemer. Have fun in hell.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I kind of agree with you. When I started leaving my religion, I had a strange feeling that made me want to blaspheme religion. Pure anger. Not a good thing.


...but repressing it doesn't help either. Dude, I know anger. Have you been to the music thread? (jk)

...it needs to be released from you, and I think God can handle it.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> Hep.
> 
> I've heard it's healthy to _circulate_ ideas within oneself, as opposed to entertaining lopsided shifts.
> 
> Consider a person who has a radical shift to religion and goes over the deep end - starts handing out Bibles to passing cars, etc...dangerous stuff, to be sure  From your new perspective, what would your best assessment of that person's state of mind be?


Sorry eye, but I'm not understanding your question. Do you want my opinion on the radical religious person?


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 26, 2012)

Cut.Throat. said:


> Denying the flying spaghetti monster is blasphemy. You're a blasphemer. Have fun in hell.


*fastens stitches, sends you on your way*


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Sorry eye, but I'm not understanding your question. Do you want my opinion on the radical religious person?


...yes, that's the one.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...but repressing it doesn't help either. Dude, I know anger. Have you been to the music thread? (jk)
> 
> ...it needs to be released from you, and I think God can handle it.


Oh I'm not angry anymore. How can I be angry at something that I can't believe? 

I think cannabis has anger handled anyways .


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...yes, that's the one.


Well if you take anything to the extreme, I think you're a nut. So... that dude's a nut.


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 26, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> *fastens stitches, sends you on your way*


May the flying spaghetti monster bless you with his noodly appendages.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Oh I'm not angry anymore. How can I be angry at something that I can't believe?
> 
> I think cannabis has anger handled anyways .


...intense people are intense people. Atheism is not a management system for emotions - especially since they are spontaneous and chemical. (I kid, about that last part)


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 26, 2012)

Cut.Throat. said:


> May the flying spaghetti monster bless you with his noodly appendages.


...nice, I've heard that before


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...intense people are intense people. Atheism is not a management system for emotions - especially since they are spontaneous and chemical. (I kid, about that last part


Aye, but I can handle my emotions.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Aye, but I can handle my emotions.



...that'd be a loaded statement if you were an esotericist. They'd consider it _49_ times Christ-like 

(inside inside joke)


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 26, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...that'd be a loaded statement if you were an esotericist. They'd consider it _49_ times Christ-like
> 
> (inside inside joke)


I don't get it.. obviously. How can I be a esotericist? I can belong to a esotericist but I can't be one.. I'm confused again.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I don't get it.. obviously. How can I be a esotericist? I can belong to a esotericist but I can't be one.. I'm confused again.


This reminded me of the ads in momma's "ladies' magazines" during the Nixon Era. cn


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> What held/holds you back from denying it flat out?
> 
> I have prayed for god to visit me in my dreams, the only religious dreams I've ever had were filled with hell fire. If god has to count on my beliefs so bad, why doesn't he come visit me and have a cup of tea? Or wine
> 
> ...


Because ive seen to much to deny it. There is alot of evil on this world, but if you understand why, it will make sense. The time we have on this earth is only a second compared to the eternity our souls live. And to answer your question, the sight of god is too overwhelming for a human.. any man that looks at god will die. 

But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."-Exodus 33:20.


----------



## UncleBuck (Jun 26, 2012)

epic trolling by kaendar.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Oh I'm not angry anymore. How can I be angry at something that I can't believe?
> 
> I think cannabis has anger handled anyways .


Why do you say that you cant believe? Im sure you are perfectly capable of believing, in fact you said that you used to believe.


----------



## Cut.Throat. (Jun 26, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Because ive seen to much to deny it. There is alot of evil on this world, but if you understand why, it will make sense. The time we have on this earth is only a second compared to the eternity our souls live. And to answer your question, the sight of god is too overwhelming for a human.. any man that looks at god will die.
> 
> But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."-Exodus 33:20.


Just accept the flying spaghetti monster in your heart kaendar. You will be blessed with a heaven full of beer volcanoes and stripper factories.


----------



## tyler.durden (Jun 26, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I kind of agree with you. When I started leaving my religion, I had a strange feeling that made me want to blaspheme religion. Pure anger. Not a good thing.


I think anger is a fairly normal response toward religion once someone escapes its influence. When you discover that you've been lied to for years (especially by those who love you the most) and have wasted a lot of time and even more of your mind, I feel that anger can be righteous. A few of my friends were very angry when they first reached the conclusion that their religious dogma wasn't reality, much in the same way one feels anger when betrayed by a trusted friend. That anger usually abates after a while, but it can flare up when one witnesses religion's negative consequences and effects around the world...


----------



## tyler.durden (Jun 26, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Because ive seen to much to deny it. There is alot of evil on this world, but if you understand why, it will make sense. The time we have on this earth is only a second compared to the eternity our souls live. And to answer your question, _*the sight of god is too overwhelming for a human.. any man that looks at god will die. *_
> 
> But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."-Exodus 33:20.









........


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Why do you say that you cant believe? Im sure you are perfectly capable of believing, in fact you said that you used to believe.


I find it extremely hard.. I've tried praying after losing my religion and I just couldn't do it. It felt awkward.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Why do you say that you cant believe? Im sure you are perfectly capable of believing, in fact you said that you used to believe.



Belief is not a choice. 

That's why the statement "have you chosen to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior?" is absurd. 

I can no more believe in any organized religion than I can believe if I walk off a building I'll float safely to the ground. 

Do you understand that example? 

Do you understand why belief isn't a choice you get to consciously make?


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Because ive seen to much to deny it. There is alot of evil on this world, but if you understand why, it will make sense. The time we have on this earth is only a second compared to the eternity our souls live. And to answer your question, the sight of god is too overwhelming for a human.. any man that looks at god will die.
> 
> But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."-Exodus 33:20.


I'll take your whole post as a opinion and not a fact.

Personally, I've never understood why a loving god would cause so much destruction. People always say "he works in mysterious ways". But I think that's just a way to dodge the question. 

"any man that looks at god will die". I think he means that you only see him when you're dead.

 Will you be offended if I ask what you have seen that makes you have a strong faith?


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> I think anger is a fairly normal response toward religion once someone escapes its influence. When you discover that you've been lied to for years (especially by those who love you the most) and have wasted a lot of time and even more of your mind, I feel that anger can be righteous. A few of my friends were very angry when they first reached the conclusion that their religious dogma wasn't reality, much in the same way one feels anger when betrayed by a trusted friend. That anger usually abates after a while, but it can flare up when one witnesses religion's negative consequences and effects around the world...


That and the fact that I accepted death as a little kid. I didn't bother me. Death was natural.. Then religion came along and made me WANT more. Now I'm spoiled and want more afterlife. It royally fucked me over.


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Why do you say that you cant believe? Im sure you are perfectly capable of believing, in fact you said that you used to believe.


I have not seen you make one single statement that others did not have to think through for you. At some point in your life you missed the basic lesson most of us learn, which is to think about things before you say them. All of your opinions depend on the absence of thought, which makes them not opinions at all, but prejudices. Have you ever stopped to wonder why you take the bigoted position on everything? I don't see how you manage to even wipe your ass without giving yourself a lobotomy.


----------



## UncleBuck (Jun 27, 2012)

epic trolling by kaendar.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 27, 2012)

never saw a glacier steam before. cn


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I'll take your whole post as a opinion and not a fact.
> 
> Personally, I've never understood why a loving god would cause so much destruction. People always say "he works in mysterious ways". But I think that's just a way to dodge the question.
> 
> ...


Read this Heph, its worded better than I could have.
http://www.ucg.org/booklet/there-really-devil/did-god-create-devil/why-does-god-allow-satan-influence-mankind/


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> never saw a glacier steam before. cn


It's not too harsh. It's a beautiful sight.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> I have not seen you make one single statement that others did not have to think through for you. At some point in your life you missed the basic lesson most of us learn, which is to think about things before you say them. All of your opinions depend on the absence of thought, which makes them not opinions at all, but prejudices. Have you ever stopped to wonder why you take the bigoted position on everything? I don't see how you manage to even wipe your ass without giving yourself a lobotomy.


I havent seen you make one statement that wasnt boosting your pretentious ego. Do you think you are incapable of being wrong? Do you think you have all the answers to the world? It seems like the only joy you get out of life is attempting to belittle other people.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Read this Heph, its worded better than I could have.
> http://www.ucg.org/booklet/there-really-devil/did-god-create-devil/why-does-god-allow-satan-influence-mankind/


That's a pretty rough test to place on anybody in my opinion. 

Honestly answer my next question. Do you think you can just be an atheist tomorrow when you wake up?

You said I can just believe. But you need to realize that it's a long hard process. If you have beliefs stuck in your head it's hard to change them. Not that I wish to change my current beliefs.

I didn't just wake up and drop my religion. It was a horrible and hard process. It may have seemed easy to you since I made a sudden thread saying I lost my faith. But there's alot more to it than that.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> That's a pretty rough test to place on anybody in my opinion.
> 
> Honestly answer my next question. Do you think you can just be an atheist tomorrow when you wake up?
> 
> ...



Thread idea!


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> That's a pretty rough test to place on anybody in my opinion.
> 
> Honestly answer my next question. Do you think you can just be an atheist tomorrow when you wake up?
> 
> ...


No I couldnt.. theres no way in hell that I would be able to deny what I know. I get wat u mean about it being a hard process but im sure that its reversible. God doesnt want anybody to deny him. He will give you signs and opportunities to accept his love, it will be up to you to react on them.


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I havent seen you make one statement that wasnt boosting your pretentious ego. Do you think you are incapable of being wrong? Do you think you have all the answers to the world? It seems like the only joy you get out of life is attempting to belittle other people.


You are little, you need no help from me. I am simply responding appropriately to the asinine hate you spew from your sewer of a mind.

You appear to be able to spend all day judging others but can't handle judgment yourself. What you see as a massive ego is simply the ability to think things through. I understand that to you that probably does cause feelings of belittlement. I do think I am capable of being wrong, but you have yet to demonstrate it, in fact the only one you prove wrong is yourself with your contradictions and inconsistencies. I do not have all the answers, but I have far more than you, I have integrity. You find joy in hate and intolerance, which in addition to belittling others, is the only way you can make yourself look bigger. It only makes sense that the fault you find in others are the things you despise about yourself.

You say stupid things for stupid reasons and defend them in stupid ways, is it any surprise that others look bigger standing next to you?


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Read this Heph, its worded better than I could have.
> http://www.ucg.org/booklet/there-really-devil/did-god-create-devil/why-does-god-allow-satan-influence-mankind/


Even the late pope John Paul announced publicly in 99 at the Vatican that hell was made up, and he apologized on the behalf of christianity for making up hell. Im not making this up, he really said this. I dont know the exact quote but the massage he was trying to pass is that you make your own hell. If you are depressed, angry, any horrible emotion that you feel for a length of time then you are in hell. Hell is being cut off from happiness, hell is being cut off from god.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Even the late pope John Paul announced publicly in 99 at the Vatican that hell was made up, and he apologized on the behalf of christianity for making up hell. Im not making this up, he really said this. I dont know the exact quote but the massage he was trying to pass is that you make your own hell. If you are depressed, angry, any horrible emotion that you feel for a length of time then you are in hell. Hell is being cut off from happiness, hell is being cut off from god.


I don't think the religious got the memo..


----------



## tyler.durden (Jun 27, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> never saw a glacier steam before. cn


Global Warming is a bitch...


----------



## tyler.durden (Jun 27, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Even the late pope John Paul announced publicly in 99 at the Vatican that hell was made up, and he apologized on the behalf of christianity for making up hell. Im not making this up, he really said this. I dont know the exact quote but the massage he was trying to pass is that you make your own hell. If you are depressed, angry, any horrible emotion that you feel for a length of time then you are in hell. Hell is being cut off from happiness, hell is being cut off from god.


Hasn't he told you? Catholics aren't christians


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> never saw a glacier steam before. cn


We both know this isn't true.


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Because ive seen to much to deny it. There is alot of evil on this world, but if you understand why, it will make sense. The time we have on this earth is only a second compared to the eternity our souls live. And to answer your question, the sight of god is too overwhelming for a human.. any man that looks at god will die.
> 
> But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."-Exodus 33:20.


Except for Moses, right? 
Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. 

Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Even the late pope John Paul announced publicly in 99 at the Vatican that hell was made up, and he apologized on the behalf of christianity for making up hell. Im not making this up, he really said this. I dont know the exact quote but the massage he was trying to pass is that you make your own hell. If you are depressed, angry, any horrible emotion that you feel for a length of time then you are in hell. Hell is being cut off from happiness, hell is being cut off from god.


The Catholic church and the Vatican do not serve god. I dont care what the pope has to say. The fact that people worship him and consider him divine as well as their host of saints makes them idolatrists.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Except for Moses, right?
> Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
> 
> Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.


Im sure Moses was an exception.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> The Catholic church and the Vatican do not serve god. I dont care what the pope has to say. The fact that people worship him and consider him divine as well as their host of saints makes them idolatrists.


No one serves god. God does not need religion, serving, or worshiping. I wouldnt doubt that even if you reject god, he'd still accept you, because god views us as his equals and not inferior.


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Im sure Moses was an exception.


Right, because the bible is never wrong.  
Oh, I guess your god 'forgot' about Moses... John 1:18. "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Right, because the bible is never wrong.
> Oh, I guess your god 'forgot' about Moses... John 1:18. "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."


Its not meant to be taken literally at all times


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> No one serves god. God does not need religion, serving, or worshiping. I wouldnt doubt that even if you reject god, he'd still accept you, because god views us as his equals and not inferior.


True. Those who reject him are still given an equal chance at forgiveness..


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> ...* I dont give a damn what you have to say*. I know crackheads with more integrity than you. Learn to have some humility.


Speculating about my school years and comparing me to a crackhead only serves for you to distance yourself from your own failings. The fact that I can out-think you on just about every subject does not make me a pretentious douche bag, it makes you a lazy, irresponsible thinker. Plenty here have corrected me and pointed our errors in my words, just not you. You confuse the act of you demonstrating that your worse than me with me claiming that I am better than you. If putting you in your place incidentally points out that I am a better person, so be it. You want to spread hate and tout unjustified perversions of answers and when they are opposed you seek to quite the criticism by either playing the hurt card or attacking motives, when that doesn't work you pretend not to give a damn. This has been my point all along, you think what you want and expect others to respect it, yet you don't give a damn. Don't give a damn about feelings, don't give a damn about accuracy, and don't give a damn about justifying your opinions to yourself. You respect nothing but your shallow hate of people better than you, which is everyone you encounter. You are simply interested in indulging your prejudices and resent it when you meet resistance. In the end, you are still using non-arguments and backward thinking to support hate rhetoric, and you will continue to be called out on it, every time.


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Its not meant to be taken literally at all times


Exactly. The first rule of apologetics is that the bible never contradicts itself so you must weave some other explanation as to what those passages _really _mean. This of course begs the question of how we know which parts of the bible are supposed to be literal and which ones are not. The truth is most people just make up explanations, which is why people of the exact same sect often disagree about how to read and interpret this literary work devised by such a perfect being. You would think that a perfect being wouldn't make it so complicated that men fight and have wars over it.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Exactly. The first rule of apologetics is that the bible never contradicts itself so you must weave some other explanation as to what those passages _really _mean. This of course begs the question of how we know which parts of the bible are supposed to be literal and which ones are not. The truth is most people just make up explanations, which is why people of the exact same sect often disagree about how to read and interpret this literary work devised by such a perfect being. You would think that a perfect being wouldn't make it so complicated that men fight and have wars over it.


Well, the rational would think... irrational... they didn't get there by thinking very much...


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 27, 2012)

I know I haven't been around here as long as some of you guys but I can't remember Heisenberg getting stuck in to anybody like he has Kaendar...


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> I know I haven't been around here as long as some of you guys but I can't remember Heisenberg getting stuck in to anybody like he has Kaendar...


We all experience moments of frustration. I can hardly blame Heis, unarguably the most level headed individual in the SS&P sub-forum, for a lapsed moment of clairty. 

Dude deserves it, and I can't blame him.


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Shannon Alexander said:


> I know I haven't been around here as long as some of you guys but I can't remember Heisenberg getting stuck in to anybody like he has Kaendar...


You haven't been around enough I guess. I can think of half dozen easily.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 27, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> You haven't been around enough I guess. I can think of half dozen easily.


I'm fairly sure you've had a thing or two to say about some of my posts in the past...


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> We all experience moments of frustration. I can hardly blame Heis, unarguably the most level headed individual in the SS&P sub-forum, for a lapsed moment of clairty.
> 
> Dude deserves it, and I can't blame him.


I dont understand why someone with no spirituality would even be here? The only point of being here is to try and convince people otherwise.. and that my friend is a loser. Its like going to a gay pride parade just to tell them they are going to hell. Nobody wants that around. Its not contributing or benefiting anybody.


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> The dude is an ass, a bigot, and probably really fat or really skinny and a ginger. His ego gets a huge boost when hes on here.


This is the fist time I have seen a shotgun ad hominem.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I dont understand why someone with no spirituality would even be here? The only point of being here is to try and convince people otherwise.. and that my friend is a loser. Its like going to a gay pride parade just to tell them they are going to hell. Nobody wants that around. Its not contributing or benefiting anybody.


Quite humorous you would say that considering you've never defined what 'spirituality' means... 

I'm here to show people why their absurd claims are absurd, in a reasonably classy, non confrontational manner, which I personally feel, has been relatively successful. 

The analogy you used is also quite humorous, as it's not a valid analogy at all.. 

Carry on..


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> The dude is an ass, a bigot, and probably really fat or really skinny and a ginger. His ego gets a huge boost when hes on here.


The fuck mate..?

I don't feel that Heisenberg is any of those things...


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Quite humorous you would say that considering you've never defined what 'spirituality' means...
> 
> I'm here to show people why their absurd claims are absurd, in a reasonably classy, non confrontational manner, which I personally feel, has been relatively successful.
> 
> ...


So for like the tenth time you admit that your here to fuck with people. Thats the point CWE is trying to make. Your like a crooked politician, you abuse your power to spread your personal beliefs and put down others. Thats not cool at all. Like I said before. We know how you feel. Stop telling us. I think 101 times of hearing "your claims are absurd" gets it thru my head. Obviously its not changing anything so why keep wasting your time?


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> So for like the tenth time you admit that your here to fuck with people. Thats the point CWE is trying to make. Your like a crooked politician, you abuse your power to spread your personal beliefs and put down others. Thats not cool at all. Like I said before. We know how you feel. Stop telling us. I think 101 times of hearing "your claims are absurd" gets it thru my head. Obviously its not changing anything so why keep wasting your time?


Pointing out the absurdity of someones claim is "trying to fuck with them"? 

I think you need to reevaluate your reasoning. 

If something is proven to you to be wrong, is it not absurd to continue believing it? 



Why keep wasting your time explaining your absurd ideas if nobody on the board buys them?


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I dont understand why someone with no spirituality would even be here? The only point of being here is to try and convince people otherwise.. and that my friend is a loser. Its like going to a gay pride parade just to tell them they are going to hell. Nobody wants that around. Its not contributing or benefiting anybody.



Did you fail to read the word "Philosophy" which is located right next to the word "spiritual" ? Ah, im sorry, i forget. You aren't a philosopher, not a thinker... merely a fallower of ideas. 

We share, we think. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we have differing opinions. It's the jackasses like you who are ruining these threads. Whenever someone has an opinion that doesnt agree with your perceptions of existence you get your panties all bunched up. 

Many of us are here to acquire hightened critical thinking skills, some are here to learn more about what people think... and especally WHY people think the thoughts they do. We are here to learn, to question, to doubt and discuss. 

You are here only to do that which you claim to refute, to convince people of your ideas. 

Those of us here who are really contributing are merely saying in one way or another "Maybe we all shouldn't be too certain of ourselves and the ideas that we grasp on to. Weather it be spiritual, mystical, reasonable, mundane... " When dealing with any idea that can't be proven as fact... it fits in with fantasy, no matter what your emotions tell you. 

A soul is not fact, regardless if we do have one or not (which no one knows) it is fantasy, imagination. 

Those who claim certainty in the absence of it are filled with FEAR.

Those who understand that nothing is certain are filled with COURAGE.

"Uncertainty in the presence of vivid hopes, fears and dreams can be extremely painful... but must be endured if we wish to live our lives without the support of comforting fairy tales" -Russel

^There are more of those who cannot live with uncertainty, than there are those who can accept the things that we do not know.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Pointing out the absurdity of someones claim is "trying to fuck with them"?
> 
> I think you need to reevaluate your reasoning.
> 
> ...


And you dodged the question. Once again, if what you say isnt gonna change our beliefs, then why waste your time saying it? Dont answer my question with another question.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Did you fail to read the word "Philosophy" which is located right next to the word "spiritual" ? Ah, im sorry, i forget. You aren't a philosopher, not a thinker... merely a fallower of ideas.
> 
> We share, we think. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we have differing opinions. It's the jackasses like you who are ruining these threads. Whenever someone has an opinion that doesnt agree with your perceptions of existence you get your panties all bunched up.
> 
> ...


I understand the philosophy part. But that doesnt explain the constant interrogation on posts that are clearly about god or religion.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> if what you say isnt gonna change our beliefs, then why waste your time saying it?


It doesn't matter if what I say changes anyones opinion or not. That's not the point. The point is to plant a seed, in anyones mind who might be reading along, believer or nonbeliever, to inquire for themselves.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> It doesn't matter if what I say changes anyones opinion or not. That's not the point. The point is to plant a seed, in anyones mind who might be reading along, believer or nonbeliever, to inquire for themselves.


Ok, well you have sowed an entire crops worth of seeds. Sit back and see if they grow. In the mean time, stop wasting your time..


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> The dude is an ass, a bigot, and probably really fat or really skinny and a ginger. His ego gets a huge boost when hes on here.


I think a lot of times when we attack others with claims that are obviously not true... what is really going on, is that this is merely a projection of ourselves that we direct at another in order for us to keep from looking within. Most of the time, when we look within, we can see that it is really us who are acting the fool rather than the other.

I think everything said here that is directed towards one of the most respectable humans here on RIU (Heis)... is merely a projection of yourself and the flaws that regard who you are as a person. I think some self refection is in order here, but will probably go unnoticed and become ignored.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Ok, well you have sowed an entire crops worth of seeds. Sit back and see if they grow. In the mean time, stop wasting your time..


Why does what I say bother you so much?


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 27, 2012)

Words like yours Padawan only bother those people that don't have true faith...


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Why does what I say bother you so much?


Because you say it over, and over, and over, and over again. Its more annoying than anything. I understand how you feel but thats not gonna make me change. Your constant attempts are just becoming irritating now.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Because you say it over, and over, and over, and over again. Its more annoying than anything. I understand how you feel but thats not gonna make me change. Your constant attempts are just becoming irritating now.


You choose to be here, you choose to read what is written, you choose to become irritated/annoyed and you choose to reply.

You willfully choose to ignore what is truly the most important virtue (imo), self reflection.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Because you say it over, and over, and over, and over again. Its more annoying than anything. I understand how you feel but thats not gonna make me change. Your constant attempts are just becoming irritating now.


Don't post beliefs if you're not willing to have them criticized. I told you that from the beginning.


----------



## Shannon Alexander (Jun 27, 2012)

You realize that you all are going round in circles and that does nothing but up my post count, Which then makes me look like a bigger dick than I really am because young people sign up and read my shit seeing the large post count and expect more from me than they could ever really hope to get... You're all killing my credibility on this site and I demand that you stop this nonsense...


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I understand the philosophy part. But that doesnt explain the constant interrogation on posts that are clearly about god or religion.


These words sound hollow coming from someone that posts what you did in a thread specifically directed at nonbelievers.


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 27, 2012)

Every seed he casts to theists is a dud, never amounts to anything. Once in a blue moon he will convince an impressionable individual that their beliefs are irrational and they will turn atheist and thats what makes it all worth it for him. The same satisfaction a religious nut gets when they convert someone to christianity.


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Every seed he casts to theists is a dud, never amounts to anything. Once in a blue moon he will convince an impressionable individual that their beliefs are irrational and they will turn atheist and thats what makes it all worth it for him. The same satisfaction a religious nut gets when they convert someone to christianity.


[video=youtube;bBUc_kATGgg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg[/video]


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> I like to hear what heis has to say. And I have a feeling that CWE is learning. He just won't admit it. That's why he gets mad when you tell him the truth. He doesn't want to hear it.


I enjoy reading Heis' comments as well. He is a wise man. I just think the back and forth with CWE is an exercise in futility.

CWE is either trolling, or completely disinterested in hearing other points of view. Either way, it's a waste of time, imo.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 27, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> "Uncertainty in the presence of vivid hopes, fears and dreams can be extremely painful... but must be endured if we wish to live our lives without the support of comforting fairy tales" -Russel
> 
> ^There are more of those who cannot live with uncertainty, than there are those who can accept the things that we do not know.



"In the first reason given by Russell for why he was not a Christian, he alluded to the dogma of the Roman Catholic church that "the existence of God can be proved by the unaided reason."[1] He then turns to some of the more popular arguments advanced for the existence of God which are (supposedly) based upon this "unaided reason" and easily finds them wanting. It goes without saying, of course, that Russell thought that he was defeating these arguments of unaided reason by means of his own (superior) unaided reason. Russell did not disagree with Rome that man can prove things with his "natural reason" (apart from the supernatural work of grace). Indeed at the end of his lecture he called his hearers to "a fearless outlook and a free intelligence." Russell simply disagreed that unaided reason takes one to God. In different ways, and with different final conclusions, both the Roman church and Russell encouraged men to exercise their reasoning ability autonomously -- apart from the foundation and restraints of divine revelation.

[...]Russell simply takes it for granted that autonomous reason enables man to know things. He speaks freely of his "knowledge of what atoms actually do," of what "science can teach us," and of "certain quite definite fallacies" committed in Christian arguments, etc. But this simply will not do. As the philosopher, Russell here gave himself a free ride; he hypocritically failed to be as self-critical in his reasoning as he beseeched others to be with themselves.

The nagging problem which Russell simply did not face is that, on the basis of autonomous reasoning, man cannot give an adequate and rational account of the knowledge we gain through science and logic. Scientific procedure assumes that the natural world operates in a uniform fashion, in which case our observational knowledge of past cases provides a basis for predicting what will happen in future cases. However, autonomous reason has no basis whatsoever for believing that the natural world will operate in a uniform fashion. Russell himself (at times) asserted that this is a chance universe. He could never reconcile this view of nature being random with his view that nature is uniform (so that "science" can teach us)."


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 27, 2012)

^ Would you be so kind as to provide the link you copied this off of please. I would like to read more. Thanks Eye.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 27, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> ^ Would you be so kind as to provide the link you copied this off of please. I would like to read more. Thanks Eye.


...no problem, zs.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 27, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Global Warming is a bitch...


Ohhhhh don't I know it. Look at grandpa's spread now. cn


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 27, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> We both know this isn't true.


Perhaps the deterioration of my memory (it's getting bad ... I forget just how bad) is at the root, but I cannot remember another instance. I've always been amazed at your capacity to neatly fillet past the emotional adipose and get right to the logical meat of a matter. cn


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Perhaps the deterioration of my memory (it's getting bad ... I forget just how bad) is at the root, but I cannot remember another instance. I've always been amazed at your capacity to neatly fillet past the emotional adipose and get right to the logical meat of a matter. cn






You may be too young to remember Oly's heyday or the exploits of SeanC, or BrotherBuzz. I have thick skin, but when it comes to spreading hate my tolerance wears thin, however I see it more as a characterization than steaming. I am a sorter, I like to put things in their place, it is how I make sense of the world. There are some people whos brains are not worth anymore than the shit that comes out of thier ass, IOW, it find viewing one is just as repulsive as viewing the other.

I have been checked and cleared for aspergers because I exhibit social indifference, obsess about one narrow topic (logic), talk about said topic even when others are bored, like to keep a routine, and like to label and sort things. The difference is aspergers usually causes the person to misunderstand or be oblivious to social cues and body language. In my case I am often more aware of a persons feelings and intentions than they are, making my condition match more closely with avoidant personality disorder that mimics some aspects of aspergers.

At the end of the day I am more concerned with defending logic and victims of intolerance than I am defending my own good name. After all, ones good name is earned by actions and conduct, and is it's own defense. Attacking the weak makes me emotional, attacking me just makes me giggle, unless the attack is valid, in which case it makes me a better person when I grow from it.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 27, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...no problem, zs.


You do understand that Greg L. Bahnsen is a christian minister and apologist right?

You do know he states "The entire human race is dead and trespass in sin, falling short of gods glory. As a result no one seeks after god or has understanding"

^No one has understanding? Not even Greg Bahnsen?

I read the whole article, and is littered with biased personal testimony, which is usually what you can expect from an apologist. 

I know you said you didn't want to post the link to the article, but i think everyone should be able to take a look at it, regardless of how it makes anyone feel. Ideas are meant to be shared. http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/PA103.htm


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 27, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> You may be too young to remember Oly's heyday or the exploits of SeanC. I have thick skin, but when it comes to spreading hate my tolerance wears thin, however I see it more as a characterization than steaming. I am a sorter, I like to put things in their place, it is how I make sense of the world. There are some people whos brains are not worth anymore than the shit that comes out of thier ass, IOW, it find viewing one is just as repulsive as viewing the other.
> 
> I have been checked and cleared for aspergers because I exhibit social indifference, obsess about one narrow topic (logic), talk about said topic even when others are bored, like to keep a routine, and like to label and sort things. The difference is aspergers usually causes the person to misunderstand or be oblivious to social cues and body language. In my case I am often more aware of a persons feelings and intentions than they are, making my condition match more closely with avoidant personality disorder that mimics some aspects of aspergers.
> 
> At the end of the day I am more concerned with defending logic and victims of intolerance than I am defending my own good name. After all, ones good name is earned by actions and conduct, and is it's own defense. Attacking the weak makes me emotional, attacking me just makes me giggle, unless the attack is valid, in which case it makes me a better person when I grow from it.


I otoh have received the Asperger's diagnosis, and it seems to fit. I'm blind in re the collateral, nonverbal channels of human communication ... and that has frustrated me all my life. It's no fun to have a good attitude sabotaged by bad social instinct. For me, the text-only format online is something of a refuge.

From Lois Bujold's Vorkosigan novels comes a quote I like immensely. 
"Reputation is what others know about us. Honor is what we know about ourselves." I'll gladly risk ruining my reputation, since ultimately it isn't mine to control. But honor; that's different. cn


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 27, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> You do understand that Greg L. Bahnsen is a christian minister and apologist right?
> 
> You do know he states "The entire human race is dead and trespass in sin, falling short of gods glory. As a result no one seeks after god or has understanding"
> 
> ...


...yes, but like I do with 'atheist' articles, the title is less important that the message. It's funny how you claim the 'depths' but cannot get past the sour coating. Also, when I ask someone to keep something to themselves via pm, it's for a reason. Never again.

edit: zs, you've done nothing to refute his claims. As usual. Can we please proceed with that part?

I want to hear what you have to say about it.


----------



## Oscar Zeta Acosta (Jun 27, 2012)

Does this thread apply to ginger people?


----------



## Doer (Jun 27, 2012)

Perhaps many have a troll inside. Perhaps all. What is free will for? What is honor?

I do notice that trolls (love that word) are squirmy and parse the language. Slippery like.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> And you dodged the question. Once again, if what you say isnt gonna change our beliefs, then why waste your time saying it? Dont answer my question with another question.


The same can be said to you. Who do you think is actually gonna follow your views? MAYBE CWE. But even then, I doubt it. We share opinions and facts. Hopefuly somebody will learn along the way.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Don't post beliefs if you're not willing to have them criticized. I told you that from the beginning.


What a great example to set as a mod. A true demonstration of leadership.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> The same can be said to you. Who do you think is actually gonna follow your views? MAYBE CWE. But even then, I doubt it. We share opinions and facts. Hopefuly somebody will learn along the way.


No it cant. I dont go around telling everyone their beliefs are wrong over and over. I let them know how I feel and leave it at that like a mature adult should. I dont continuously run circles around people poking them trying to convince them that what they are saying is absurd. Thats something a child would do.


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> What a great example to set as a mod. A true demonstration of leadership.


Mods are not meant to be leaders, more like custodians. Pad is under no obligation to set any examples, but simply to conform to the same standards that apply to everyone here. 

You have yet to explain why scrutiny is rude. If you feel demonized it is because your views are fiendish.


----------



## Doer (Jun 27, 2012)

Originally Posted by *Kaendar*"And you dodged the question. Once again, if what you say isnt gonna change our beliefs, then why waste your time saying it? Dont answer my question with another question."

I do agree with the "question with question" non-answer as being a good troll for some. But, I'm not saying that to change anyone's belief. And I don't feel like I'm wasting my time to bring up discussion points. 

So, a question for discussion could be, why care if your question get's dodged? Who has the athority to demand attention? Even in society, I don't have to answer anyone's question in a civil sense unless compelled by supoena. Is it not considered rude to keep demanding answers?


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Doer said:


> Originally Posted by *Kaendar*"And you dodged the question. Once again, if what you say isnt gonna change our beliefs, then why waste your time saying it? Dont answer my question with another question."
> 
> I do agree with the "question with question" non-answer as being a good troll for some. But, I'm not saying that to change anyone's belief. And I don't feel like I'm wasting my time to bring up discussion points.
> 
> So, a question for discussion could be, why care if your question get's dodged? Who has the athority to demand attention? Even in society, I don't have to answer anyone's question in a civil sense unless compelled by supoena. Is it not considered rude to keep demanding answers?


Ask the atheists. They are the ones that demand attention and responses to their questions.


----------



## Doer (Jun 27, 2012)

As I ask all. Why care? 


What? Me Worry?


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Ask the atheists. They are the ones that demand attention and responses to their questions.


Why ask the atheists? One atheist might love attention. Another atheist might despise attention. Again, you can't group atheists together since they only have one thing in common, which is the rejection of an idea.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Why ask the atheists? One atheist might love attention. Another atheist might despise attention. Again, you can't group atheists together since they only have one thing in common, which is the rejection of an idea.


Im sorry. Ask Padawan, Heis, Heph, Zaihet, and the rest of the lynch mob.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> No it cant. I dont go around telling everyone their beliefs are wrong over and over. I let them know how I feel and leave it at that like a mature adult should. I dont continuously run circles around people poking them trying to convince them that what they are saying is absurd. Thats something a child would do.


You have said many things are wrong while standing in a bigot position. You still haven't changed your mind. Shall I bring up your views of gays as an example? You kept telling people that it _is_ a disorder. That was just an example, lets not carry that subject on. 

I'm sure you can now see that you say others are wrong too. 

I don't think the skeptics here are being rude to you (well at least not before you started dishing out insults). They simply ask questions and voice their opinions.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Im sorry. Ask Padawan, Heis, Heph, Zaihet, and the rest of the lynch mob.


Good job. You're learning.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> You have said many things are wrong while standing in a bigot position. You still haven't changed your mind. Shall I bring up your views of gays as an example? You kept telling people that it _is_ a disorder. That was just an example, lets not carry that subject on.
> 
> I'm sure you can now see that you say others are wrong too.
> 
> I don't think the skeptics here are being rude to you (well at least not before you started dishing out insults). They simply ask questions and voice their opinions.


I said that the disorder thing was a theory, I dont believe it like fact, only a possibility. It seems that everyone here including cn have the problem of taking what I say and blowing it out or proportion.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I said that the disorder thing was a theory, I dont believe it like fact, only a possibility. It seems that everyone here including cn have the problem of taking what I say and blowing it out or proportion.


In the closed thread, you repeatedly presented this "theory" as if it had the weight of gravity. You provide your own refutation. cn


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I said that the disorder thing was a theory


Link to the post where you articulated this point please.


----------



## jessy koons (Jun 27, 2012)

Everybody gets a soul when this damn tread ends.


----------



## jessy koons (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I said that the disorder thing was a theory, I dont believe it like fact, only a possibility. It seems that everyone here including cn have the problem of taking what I say and blowing it out or proportion.


Hi K, I'm back and i'm ready, willing, and able to blow you out of proportion.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Link to the post where you articulated this point please.


https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/538846-homosexuality-choice.html
Very first post, I offered my theory and what I think about the subject.


----------



## Doer (Jun 27, 2012)

Theories are refuted and/or supported. That's forum. Baiting and backbiting, duck dodge and weave, is....wait for it.....troll.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I said that the disorder thing was a theory, I dont believe it like fact, only a possibility. It seems that everyone here including cn have the problem of taking what I say and blowing it out or proportion.


But you kept saying your opinion was right.. So you do tell others they're wrong. 

Do you understand that skeptics aren't just telling you you're wrong just to be a dick? They're voicing their opinions just like you do. the only difference is they go about it in a more mature way (not making insults and such.. well I mean NOW they do, but they didn't until you insulted them). 

What do you have against skeptics? Is it because our views differ? Do you hate logic? I just don't get it.

By saying that you believe in god you're disagreeing with us. We don't get mad though. We don't start saying "you religious people are mean for saying my beliefs are wrong.. blah blah"


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> But you kept saying your opinion was right.. So you do tell others they're wrong.
> 
> Do you understand that skeptics aren't just telling you you're wrong just to be a dick? They're voicing their opinions just like you do. the only difference is they go about it in a more mature way (not making insults and such.. well I mean NOW they do, but they didn't until you insulted them).
> 
> ...


It doesnt bother me that people disagree, it bothers me that they wont give up once they get the point across.


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> It doesnt bother me that people disagree, it bothers me that they wont give up once they get the point across.


If you bring up a new point every time you post, then it is certainly appropriate to discuss and/or criticize this new point. If you do not want to be critiqued, you don't have to post anything.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> It doesnt bother me that people disagree, it bothers me that they wont give up once they get the point across.


You don't either. And that's fine as long as you accept criticism and don't insult people. We accept criticism. Go ahead, ask me a question. I'll give you an honest answer.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 27, 2012)

For no reason at all I want the 700th post on this checkered thread. cn


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> You don't either. And that's fine as long as you accept criticism and don't insult people. We accept criticism. Go ahead, ask me a question. I'll give you an honest answer.


Ok. Im looking for a 2nd opinion. Can you judge someone entire character based on their opinions on 2 or 3 topics? For instance.. can you call someone a hypocrite because they say they hate smoking, but are seen smoking a joint, all because they didnt specify that they hated smoking cigarettes? Can you call someone a pathological liar because they say that they believe that murder is wrong, but they still love and forgive everyone, including murderers??


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Ok. Im looking for a 2nd opinion. Can you judge someone entire character based on their opinions on 2 or 3 topics? For instance.. can you call someone a hypocrite because they say they hate smoking, but are seen smoking a joint, all because they didnt specify that they hated smoking cigarettes?* Can you call someone a pathological liar because they say that they believe that murder is wrong, but they still love and forgive everyone, including murderers?*?


For that, no. But that was never the issue. Stop peeing on folks' legs and complaining about the rain. cn


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Ok. Im looking for a 2nd opinion. Can you judge someone entire character based on their opinions on 2 or 3 topics? For instance.. can you call someone a hypocrite because they say they hate smoking, but are seen smoking a joint, all because they didnt specify that they hated smoking cigarettes? Can you call someone a pathological liar because they say that they believe that murder is wrong, but they still love and forgive everyone, including murderers??


So are we. We're open to second opinions. We won't freak out when given one though. 

Yes you can. The person who "hates smoking" is a hypocrite since they're smoking. They could take it offensively, but it's only the truth. 

How are they lying? My answer would be no.. But what does that have to do with what I'm saying?


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> For that, no. But that was never the issue. Stop peeing on folks' legs and complaining about the rain. cn


Its the same thing. Im assuming your false judgement that im a pathological liar stems from the fact I think being gay is wrong, but I also say that i love and tolerate everybody.. Your never ending witty remarks and swift comebacks seem to be wilting. I always thought you were the coolest and most level headed person on here, but lately your un justifiable judgments have lowered my respect.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> So are we. We're open to second opinions. We won't freak out when given one though.
> 
> Yes you can. The person who "hates smoking" is a hypocrite since they're smoking. They could take it offensively, but it's only the truth.
> 
> How are they lying? My answer would be no.. But what does that have to do with what I'm saying?


Technically a hypocrite, but it depends on everyones mood lol.. and thanks for the second part, thats what I thought.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Technically a hypocrite, but it depends on everyones mood lol.. and thanks for the second part, thats what I thought.


Your're welcome? I didn't know that question had an agenda. But even if it did, I shouldn't give a dishonest asnwer. 

I think I have a clue what your agenda was now.. Not sure if what I'm about to say makes sense because I might be off but here it goes... Being gay isn't anywhere near as wrong as killing.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Your're welcome? I didn't know that question had an agenda. But even if it did, I shouldn't give a dishonest asnwer.
> 
> I think I have a clue what your agenda was now.. Not sure if what I'm about to say makes sense because I might be off but here it goes... Being gay isn't anywhere near as wrong as killing.


Dont worry, thats not what I was getting at.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Dont worry, thats not what I was getting at.


So why did you thank me? Nevermind, it's probably not important. But do you understand that we can do without the insults now? It's fine if you ask us questions. So it should be fine if we can ask you questions without the feeling of "walking on thin ice".


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> So why did you thank me? Nevermind, it's probably not important. But do you understand that we can do without the insults now? It's fine if you ask us questions. So it should be fine if we can ask you questions without the feeling of "walking on thin ice".


I dont mind asking questions, it creates discussion. What I mind is when people ask the same question 20 times and think there is nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> I dont mind asking questions, it creates discussion. What I mind is when people ask the same question 20 times and think there is nothing wrong with that.


What question has been asked 20 times? Did you give the question an answer?


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> What question has been asked 20 times? Did you give the question an answer?


When people constantly say over and over and over that believing in religion is wrong because it isnt rational. One or 2 times is enough, it doesnt need to be repeated on every thread.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> What question has been asked 20 times? *Did you give the question an answer*?


Ever watch political debates? They answer, but somehow the answer has nothing at all to do with the question. Repeat the question and watch a politician (an unseasoned one) get offended. The seasoned ones take the opportunity to launch off into another prepared irrelevancy. cn


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Ever watch political debates? They answer, but somehow the answer has nothing at all to do with the question. Repeat the question and watch a politician (an unseasoned one) get offended. The seasoned ones take the opportunity to launch off into another prepared irrelevancy. cn


What about rhetorical questions?


----------



## Doer (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> What about rhetorical questions?


Asked and answered....rhetorically.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Doer said:


> Asked and answered....rhetorically.


So your saying that the asker answers his owns question? Meaning that repeatedly asking that question is pointless?


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> When people constantly say over and over and over that believing in religion is wrong because it isnt rational. One or 2 times is enough, it doesnt need to be repeated on every thread.


It's just an opinion. Like I said, you voice yours and say we're wrong. There's nothing wrong with that unless you get offended by criticism and alternate opinions. 

If you get to say something, then we get to go against it if we wish. I don't see anybody constantly telling you you're wrong without a response by you. Do you think people would keep saying your views are wrong if you stopped expressing them? Of course not, it would be pointless. 
You voice your opinion and it get critiqued. You then say no my opinion is right. Then your opinion gets critiqued again.
So yeah people keep telling you you're not thinking rationally, but you're not doing anything different. By arguing your opinions, you go against another person's opinions. It's called debate. Debate doesn't need insults though. 

Not sure if I made sense so let me say it in a shorter version. If you keep saying that your opinions are right, others get to keep saying they're wrong.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> It's just an opinion. Like I said, you voice yours and say we're wrong. There's nothing wrong with that unless you get offended by criticism and alternate opinions.
> 
> If you get to say something, then we get to go against it if we wish. I don't see anybody constantly telling you you're wrong without a response by you. Do you think people would keep saying your views are wrong if you stopped expressing them? Of course not, it would be pointless.
> You voice your opinion and it get critiqued. You then say no my opinion is right. Then your opinion gets critiqued again.
> ...


My opinions are _opinions_, that doesnt make them fact, so people dont need to say they are wrong.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> My opinions are _opinions_, that doesnt make them fact, so people dont need to say they are wrong.


If your opinions are immoral, it's everybody's job to bring your opinions to justice. They don't have to be fact to be wrong (by wrong I mean immoral). You say I disrespect women right? Well good for you. If you believe my views are immoral, then tell me. That's what we do with you. We see how some of your views are wrong and we try to help you. Well maybe it's not so innocent now, but your insults are what created the negative views on you.


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> If your opinions are immoral, it's everybody's job to bring your opinions to justice. They don't have to be fact to be wrong (by wrong I mean immoral). You say I disrespect women right? Well good for you. If you believe my views are immoral, then tell me. That's what we do with you. We see how some of your views are wrong and we try to help you. Well maybe it's not so innocent now, but your insults are what created the negative views on you.


I never said you disrespected women, it was the other way around. Oh unless your talkin about April, but thats not really disrespect.. I just take her side cuz I like the way she acts.


----------



## Doer (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> If your opinions are immoral, it's everybody's job to bring your opinions to justice. They don't have to be fact to be wrong (by wrong I mean immoral). You say I disrespect women right? Well good for you. If you believe my views are immoral, then tell me. That's what we do with you. We see how some of your views are wrong and we try to help you. Well maybe it's not so innocent now, but your insults are what created the negative views on you.


Trying to help? Bring someone's opinion to justice? What are you, the immorality posse? You judge views to be wrong and try to help? This is really begining to sound familar.

All "leadership" of this ilk is opposed by free thinkers. And on a note more close, how irrlevant this back and forth is. She said, then she said, no she said....get the picture?


----------



## Kaendar (Jun 27, 2012)

Doer said:


> Trying to help? Bring someone's opinion to justice? What are you, the immorality posse? You judge views to be wrong and try to help? This is really begining to sound familar.
> 
> All "leadership" of this ilk is opposed by free thinkers. And on a note more close, how irrlevant this back and forth is. She said, then she said, no she said....get the picture?


LMAO @ "The Immorality Posse"


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 27, 2012)

Hep, i admire you more than anyone on this website, and i take your inquries seriously, and with a lot of thought behind them. I know that you put more into what you say than others think, i can see it. You are so fucking smart bro, and you continue to amaze me with every question you ask, and every opinion you commit to. Thanks man, you fill me with a sense of hope, in a world of hopelessness.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Doer said:


> Trying to help? Bring someone's opinion to justice? What are you, the immorality posse? You judge views to be wrong and try to help? This is really begining to sound familar.
> 
> All "leadership" of this ilk is opposed by free thinkers. And on a note more close, how irrlevant this back and forth is. She said, then she said, no she said....get the picture?


Oh shut up.. If I said black people are stupid, you'd wanna correct me right? Correcting me in that case would be considered bringing an immoral view to justice. So again, shut up. 

I do regret putting up the justice part. I was gonna add a picture of somebody from the justice league but decided not too since I didn't feel like searching google images.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Hep, i admire you more than anyone on this website, and i take your inquries seriously, and with a lot of thought behind them. I know that you put more into what you say than others think, i can see it. You are so fucking smart bro, and you continue to amaze me with every question you ask, and every opinion you commit to. Thanks man, you fill me with a sense of hope, in a world of hopelessness.


Ha thanks man. I appreciate you actually thinking about my posts, it makes me feel like they're not completely pointless lol.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 27, 2012)

^ everything has value. That's the thing.


----------



## Hepheastus420 (Jun 27, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ^ everything has value. That's the thing.


Who told you "not everything has value". You tell me who told you that


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 27, 2012)

Hepheastus420 said:


> Who told you "not everything has value". You tell me who told you that
> View attachment 2231227


...lol! I was gonna write "I pity the fool..." but, I recognized that we're all fools 

[video=youtube;tXoV-7PkNt0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXoV-7PkNt0[/video]


----------

