# best air stone, diffuser, and pump? dwc



## krealward (Dec 30, 2009)

I am doing my first dwc grow. I am having eight buckets (and only want to use one powerful pump). Just wondering what you guys think I should go with. The bendable air diffuser tubes, the circular air stones @ petsmart, multiple little cylinder air stones? And also what size pump should I use? Will the ecoplus air 8 work for all eight buckets? I'm also following making a bucket cloner like the ez-clone style, what size submerable should I use for this? thanks for the input -Kree


----------



## Illegal Smile (Dec 30, 2009)

I'd look at the 950 gph sunleaves pump. I find the all stone (not inlaid in plastic) airstones that are sort of triangular shaped the best among the cheap ones. The high end diffusers are great but very expensive.


----------



## krealward (Dec 30, 2009)

thanks for the tip illegal smile. I was thinking about hooking my pump to an 48" air diffuser and having it spiral towards the center and then hooking it to a round air stone in the center so the whole bottom of the bucket is distributing air. (for all eight buckets) Do you think that would push enough air? And also, do you have any idea how loud those pumps are? My grow room is in our walk in closet right next to the bed. thanks for any input -Kree


----------



## Illegal Smile (Dec 31, 2009)

It's really a matter of what you want the bubbles to do, just oxygenate the water, or also water the medium until the roots are in the water. Read the link below.


----------



## tea tree (Dec 31, 2009)

the rule of thumb that I have been able to find and have had great success with is five watt of air pump power to five gallons of water. Or one watt to one gallon. This can I have read go as low as .5 watt per gallon. It works but growth is not as vigorous. The most important part is getting that pump wattage. eBay sellers will send u the infor if you ask so will hydro shops as sometimes they dont list it. For the ecoplus pumps I found it by the googling and the eco plus pumps are nice wattage for the price. For eight buckets I would think about one of those huge comercial 60 dollar pumps at hydro stores that is at least 40 watts. Yu can buy replacement part for those is they break too. I think airhoses might be nice. I mean air stones that are hoses with holes. However I think bubble discs might get the most air in. The smaller the bubbles the more DO.


----------



## krealward (Jan 5, 2010)

thanks for the input guys, I'm off to try out some new pumps! /Kree


----------



## mindphuk (Jan 5, 2010)

They are more expensive but the micro-pore diffusers beat out regular air stones every day of the week.
http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/micropore-air-diffusers-c-421_485.html

Smaller bubble size means more surface area contact; won't react with nutrient and won't break down like normal stones.


----------



## pr0fesseur (Mar 27, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> They are more expensive but the micro-pore diffusers beat out regular air stones every day of the week.
> http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/micropore-air-diffusers-c-421_485.html
> 
> Smaller bubble size means more surface area contact; won't react with nutrient and won't break down like normal stones.


Sorry to dig this up but id like to add that if you do the math disc air stones have a greater surface area than a cylinder. and this company Alita http://www.alita.com/diffuser/sintered.phpmakes the BEST air stones through a process called sintering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintering using a material called Adamantine Spar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamantine_Spar
which has a hardness of 9! which is 7 times harder than porcelin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohs_scale_of_mineral_hardness


These are INDESTRUCTIBLE! and produce the best diffusion of any airstone diffuser period! buy them here
http://www.hidhut.com/catalog/air-stones-c-28_34.html


----------



## 711grower (Mar 27, 2010)

is there a website that actualy sells these indestructable air stones


----------



## pr0fesseur (Mar 28, 2010)

oops check my previous post i forgot a link...


----------



## pr0fesseur (Apr 1, 2010)

*50.26 Inches of surface area 9 on the hardness scale indestructible! put this in the bottom of your buckets gents! this thing makes so many bubbles in a 5 Gal bucket it raises the surface level drastically! The typical air stones dont put out air evenly like these puppies! Typical airstones only put out air bubbles in one spot this delivers air to thw whole of the bucket bottom.!!!

*


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 1, 2010)

Indestructible and indefinitely reusable? How hard to sterilize/clean? Even if they don't "clog" there's bound to be chemical buildup of some sort right?


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 1, 2010)

One pump, one venturi valve. If you want really small bubbles put the venturi on the pumps inlet size. Larger bubbles put the venturi on the pump exit size. To control the number of bubbles attach a small gate valve or ball valve to the air inlet tubing attached to the venturi valve. Just plumb everthing up in a circle. Uniseals are about the easiest way to plumb buckets.

Uniseal: http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1617/Uniseals/uniseals/0


----------



## pr0fesseur (Apr 3, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> Indestructible and indefinitely reusable? How hard to sterilize/clean? Even if they don't "clog" there's bound to be chemical buildup of some sort right?


Pretty simple to clean really i use 50%h2o2 and let it soak..Boric acid works too... i havent had one of these clog fully yet...im sure if they really get clogged you could use lye to break up any solids and rinse well...i wouldent use any cleaners you dont know whats in them... at least boric acid and lye are water soluable and work REALLY well...Remember these airstones are made for PONDS so with the amount of air needed to drive them keeps them pretty clog free as well.
They supposedly last for years..ive had smaller ones for over 2 years they dont break because theyre fused together unlike the bonded ones which use some sort of agent to bond the particles together.. if i could afford it i would use the limewood airstones those are by far the best! the bubbles that come out of those are amazing to behold. 

http://www.lnt.com/show_product/46401/?utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=datafeed&utm_term=46401


----------



## pr0fesseur (Apr 3, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> One pump, one venturi valve. If you want really small bubbles put the venturi on the pumps inlet size. Larger bubbles put the venturi on the pump exit size. To control the number of bubbles attach a small gate valve or ball valve to the air inlet tubing attached to the venturi valve. Just plumb everthing up in a circle. Uniseals are about the easiest way to plumb buckets.


Great link thanks ive been looking for these.! I Agree Fatman venturi valves are a great thing..but IMHO only in large rez. pumps tend to heat up water in small spaces. its really not about how many bubbles you get in the water but how long the bubble has in contact WITH the water..venturis are great for this and IMHO a MUCH better solution in a large res.. but for buckets seriously try the super large disc and youll be glad you did...the discs can handle over 20L/Min you can breath out through the disc without very muchj resistance.. and need a HEFTY air pump to push them...ill post a pic of the little ones later today when i get in...


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 3, 2010)

I personally do not recommend submersible pumps becausethey are cooled by the water so therefore heat the way ter to much. That and most people buy cheap submersible which have poor efficincies so they definiteely heat the water. Most air cooled pumps are pumps made for salt water aquairiums (or should be) and are therefore air cooled and magnetic drive so they contribute to very litle increase in reservoir water temps. Putting a venturi on their inlet means the pump chops up the air into very liite bubbles which means large suface area per air volume and long water contact time. Plus the circulay tive effect of the pumped water keeps the roots in motions so that all the roots are exposed to more high DO water rtaher than just the outter layer ogf the roots mass. Air pumps just do not put out a lot of volume at any water head. Air blowers are too noisy as they have an irritating pitch (whine) to their noise output. Lime wood/ bass wood have smaller bubble output but limited volume with small economical air pumps. Hardwood airstones such as oak have very small bubbles but require higher air pressures. About the best choice is a needle wheel pump but they require more maintenance (needle wheel replacments) than an air cooled pump with a venturi. An economical air pumpsis just too dismal in its air pressure and air volume output when pumping at pressures needed with wood airstones out put. If you spend much money then you might as well justs skip the air pump. 

All in all you still need to consider only a DWC really benefits by airstones over a small pump as they have small air/water interfaces due to all the roots. Any reservoir with a large open air/water interface is more efficient kept at a high DO by just using a small aquairium power head pointed at the water surface. More air enters the water at the ar ir interface than through air bubbles unless you have extreme amounts of air volume IE a blower.


----------



## pr0fesseur (Apr 4, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> I personally do not recommend submersible pumps becausethey are cooled by the water so therefore heat the way ter to much. That and most people buy cheap submersible which have poor efficincies so they definiteely heat the water. Most air cooled pumps are pumps made for salt water aquairiums (or should be) and are therefore air cooled and magnetic drive so they contribute to very litle increase in reservoir water temps. Putting a venturi on their inlet means the pump chops up the air into very liite bubbles which means large suface area per air volume and long water contact time. Plus the circulay tive effect of the pumped water keeps the roots in motions so that all the roots are exposed to more high DO water rtaher than just the outter layer ogf the roots mass. Air pumps just do not put out a lot of volume at any water head. Air blowers are too noisy as they have an irritating pitch (whine) to their noise output. Lime wood/ bass wood have smaller bubble output but limited volume with small economical air pumps. Hardwood airstones such as oak have very small bubbles but require higher air pressures. About the best choice is a needle wheel pump but they require more maintenance (needle wheel replacments) than an air cooled pump with a venturi. An economical air pumpsis just too dismal in its air pressure and air volume output when pumping at pressures needed with wood airstones out put. If you spend much money then you might as well justs skip the air pump.
> 
> All in all you still need to consider only a DWC really benefits by airstones over a small pump as they have small air/water interfaces due to all the roots. Any reservoir with a large open air/water interface is more efficient kept at a high DO by just using a small aquairium power head pointed at the water surface. More air enters the water at the ar ir interface than through air bubbles unless you have extreme amounts of air volume IE a blower.


I agree Completely! i would just like to add that there is a new powerhead that m trying to get my hands on that will alleviate some heat issues in a small res check out this link. the pumps have the head inside the tank and the motor outside!!! using an induction drive!!
http://ecotechmarine.com/


----------



## mtblackdog (Apr 4, 2010)

I have been just using the round flat 6" stones from Petsmart and two of them boil the water in my 48 quart ingloos, plenty of bubbles and action and havent clogged in two grows.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 4, 2010)

pr0fesseur said:


> I agree Completely! i would just like to add that there is a new powerhead that m trying to get my hands on that will alleviate some heat issues in a small res check out this link. the pumps have the head inside the tank and the motor outside!!! using an induction drive!!
> http://ecotechmarine.com/


Yes, the magnetically held inductive power heads are nice but still quite expensive. They have only been out a few years so the retailers and manafacturers are still inflating the prices.

In water treatment plants they commonly use waht is called a propellor aerator. It actually is a plastic propeller over a series of air outlet holes. They keep the water churning much better than just injected air. They obviously could not be used with a DWC or Bubbleponics reservoir with roots.


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 4, 2010)

I've always wondered fatman what kind of difference there really is in heat put into the water with a saltwater type external mag drive pump and internal mag drive. Even the external flows water around the back of the impeller and around the inside of the coil from what I can tell, so how much is air cooled in reality?
Would a pool type pump pass less heat?


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 4, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> I've always wondered fatman what kind of difference there really is in heat put into the water with a saltwater type external mag drive pump and internal mag drive. Even the external flows water around the back of the impeller and around the inside of the coil from what I can tell, so how much is air cooled in reality?
> Would a pool type pump pass less heat?


 Depends on the pump. Many air cooled pumps that are mag drive have a few inches between the motor and the pump so very little heat is transferred. Even those that do not have that space of seperation are still loosing n more of the motors heat through their metal cases then through the plastic pump material attached to the motors steel case. Air can takeup, transport and disperse the thermal energy quicker and more efficiently than the heat can pass through the plastic to the water. 

Plus as stated, most quality air cooled pump motors are enclosed in metal to quickly dissipate the heat to the air. Most air cooled pumps also have an internal fan blade to quickly dissipate heat to the air so it is not transfer to the pumps water. Then again most air cooled pumps used for reef aquariums and therfore growers have plastic cases and plastic magnets which transfer much less heat to the water from the metal cased motors. 

This is far from the case with cheap plastic cased motors like the Danner pumps or the submersible pumps which transfer all or in the case of the Danner used externallly nearly all heat energy to the water. 

Some external air cooled pumps are even in aluminum amd aluminum finned cases to run cool and tranfers very, very little heat to the water. If t you buy an external pump with a plastic case be assured nearly all the motors heat energy is being taken up by the pumps water as the plastic case insulates the motor and the water is better capable of taking up the water that the air when both are enclosed in the same plastic case.


----------



## tea tree (Apr 4, 2010)

great thread. I currently have a 20 watt air pump that is using two 1 dollar airstones in a five gal dwc. While I have a boiling and bubbling and explosive mix I cant help but think I can refine this a little with that wooden air stone. That one looks cherry. Altho my trees grew fine with 3 watts and one airstone per five gallon I think with 10 watts thru two airstones I saw a surge. I have that standard metal pump on eBay for 54 dollars I beleive. I forget who makes it. Loud, gets hot but reliable and strong. Some of those backflo preventers are also o my list for next paycheck. I would not mind one bucket on my floor of my tent but 4! would suck. As in if pumps fail below waterline when they start up again they pump water out!


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 5, 2010)

I'm glad you mention danner pumps specifically, lets say you compare the dwc system I'm basing mine off of which runs an 1800 , 1200 and 700 danner fpr each group of 5 large tree bins with 10 bins total and two 100 gallon reservoirs. So that's a total of 2x 1800, 2x1200, 2x700, plus whatever heat is put into the water by the 80lpm pond air pump and the ambient temp of the room which is say around 85f.
( I can hear you laughing)

Some try to get by on 1/2hp chillers but everyone says get a 1hp.

Lets say you chop all that down and use a pair of Iwaki pumps (md70rlt) and insulate the hell out of everything, those pumps are still going to be moving some water, the water friction and resistance alone generates heat obviously no matter what, not counting what those pumps will put in, so will I really be lowering the size of chiller required and to what degree?

Also, given the right setup couldn't some of that water pressure and pump be used to turn the entire system into it's own low efficiency refrigerator using just water as the refrigerant as other systems do these days in other industries? Theoretically that is, if you could somehow work out the details of what that might require to switch water paths to turn it on or off or create the pressure needed, or what it might do to the nutrient solution.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 5, 2010)

Lets figure thw e watts total and condider the pumps at 60% efficient. ((2*145 watts) +(2*110 watts)+(2*70 watts)+150 watts))*0.40= 320 watts of thermal energy. 320 watts. A one hp power air reconditioner is 1200 btu. A goof chiller is more effiient than an air conditioner as water stores and transfers thermal energy more efficiently than air. However you rae dependent of the manafacturers ethiv cs in this area. they tend to arbitrarily assign cpacaities on the sixe of the compressor not the size or quality of the heat exchanger. Myself I would not bother cooling below the ambient room temperature but just keep the nutrients cooled to the ambient room temp. So really all you need worry about is the heat caused bp pump inefficiency. 40% is a more than sufficient figure. So in that case you only need a bit larger than a 1/4 HP chiller if it is supplied with an heat exchanger at least as effecient as a cheap window air conditioner. Your talking more than enough water movement for high DO throughtout the system.

My self though I would just buy three reeflo 3600 gph Snapper or the older Dart models pumps on eBay. Retail that is about $850 versus about $900 for the Fanner pumps. The will flow New sNappers or OldDarts will pump 3450 gallons each at 145 watts each. That means three of them would give you 10,350 gph at 435 watts total draw versus the 800 watts of the Danner pumps for 8600 gph of flow. The Reeflo are air cooled. Air conditioners are much chepaer than water chillers. I use quite a few of the Reeflos with my reef aquariums for large skimmers and for closed loop circulation in SPS coral tanks.


----------



## CAN MAN (Apr 5, 2010)

pr0fesseur said:


> *50.26 Inches of surface area 9 on the hardness scale indestructible! put this in the bottom of your buckets gents! this thing makes so many bubbles in a 5 Gal bucket it raises the surface level drastically! The typical air stones dont put out air evenly like these puppies! Typical airstones only put out air bubbles in one spot this delivers air to thw whole of the bucket bottom.!!!
> 
> *


where did you get it. an how much an what size air pump did you use


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 5, 2010)

The Mohs hardness scale is not a sign of indestructibility. it is simly a way of measuring hard meinerals ability r to scaratch a soft mimeral. ad far as its hradness being a 9. I highly doubt that as the scale only goes to 10 and a diamond is a 10. A few nines: Corundum, Carborundum,, Tungsten carbide, titanium carbide. 7.5 to 8: Hardened steel, Tungsten, emerald. Usually diffusers such as that are made of scintered glass or fused quartz. That means something like a 6 for a hardness. The diffuser would have to be a metal to be that hard and those metals would be too unaffordable for use in a simple growing reservoir. The glass or quartz would belisted as a hard substance but definitely not a 9.

Now lets llk at the fact you say it is 50.26 inches square. Area = pi * r^2. so (50.26/3.14)^0.5 = 4, so there fore 8 inches diameter. If you have a link to this diffuser post a link. I am quite curious. I am however not intersted in somthing that would have to be stolen from an employer to be affordable for use.


----------



## pr0fesseur (Apr 5, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> The Mohs hardness scale is not a sign of indestructibility. it is simly a way of measuring hard meinerals ability r to scaratch a soft mimeral. ad far as its hradness being a 9. I highly doubt that as the scale only goes to 10 and a diamond is a 10. A few nines: Corundum, Carborundum,, Tungsten carbide, titanium carbide. 7.5 to 8: Hardened steel, Tungsten, emerald. Usually diffusers such as that are made of scintered glass or fused quartz. That means something like a 6 for a hardness. The diffuser would have to be a metal to be that hard and those metals would be too unaffordable for use in a simple growing reservoir. The glass or quartz would belisted as a hard substance but definitely not a 9.
> 
> Now lets llk at the fact you say it is 50.26 inches square. Area = pi * r^2. so (50.26/3.14)^0.5 = 4, so there fore 8 inches diameter. If you have a link to this diffuser post a link. I am quite curious. I am however not intersted in somthing that would have to be stolen from an employer to be affordable for use.


If you read my previous post here i posted all the links 
Actually adamantine spar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamantine_Spar which is a form of Corundum
https://www.rollitup.org/3962505-post8.html

heres where i got the 8" from
http://www.thebigtomato.com/catalog/activeaqua-air-stone-disc-new.htm


----------



## tea tree (Apr 5, 2010)

wtf, looks at this!











20 dollars for this and 60 for the best one. Damn. Sounds good. What about electrolysis machines. Someone has one and another memeber just built one. I cant fid the link to the shop I saw them at before. It was a hydro shop. I think they are very expensive tho, like a 1000 dollars. Pretty cool.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 5, 2010)

pr0fesseur said:


> If you read my previous post here i posted all the links
> Actually adamantine spar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamantine_Spar which is a form of Corundum
> https://www.rollitup.org/3962505-post8.html
> 
> ...


Oh yes professor I have every one of all your previous potsts you have ever put up in this forum memorized. NOT. You just gotta know I live by your every word and go back every night and read what you have previosuly posted otherwise I just can't sleep due to an over whelming fear that I am missing out on all that is important in mj growing. *Give us all a break dude.*

Nice! Is it also a brittle material. Many hard materials and most sintered materials are pretty brittle, as they are just barely bound to each other through light surface melting. Shouldn't make any difference during use but it would make a hugh difference in shipping and handling breakage.


----------



## pr0fesseur (Apr 7, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Oh yes professor I have every one of all your previous potsts you have ever put up in this forum memorized. NOT. You just gotta know I live by your every word and go back every night and read what you have previosuly posted otherwise I just can't sleep due to an over whelming fear that I am missing out on all that is important in mj growing. *Give us all a break dude.*
> 
> Whats with the flaming? I just stated that if you read the THIS WHOLE thread(not entire forums) post #8 to be exact, you would have seen the links i posted. I dont know bout you but this is a place to learn all i am doing is posting what i found how it works and my results/thoughts nothing more..Excuse me for trying to help others as ive helped them...I have agreed on all of your points because they are all true and were here to help others, NO?


----------



## pr0fesseur (Apr 7, 2010)

If you check out Alita here:
http://alita.com they have an amazing Silicone micro perforated tubing thats great for krusty buckets or even bubble cloners. it never closg and lasts almost forever..HERE:
http://alita.com/diffuser/siliconehose.php A quick note you will need a pretty heavy duty pump like the one fatman suggests Danner or Alita style with more than 2psi or 40l/min to see the real payoff on their tubing and diffusers. Here is a link for some air pumps free shipping too! http://www.azponds.com/new_webpages/New_air_pumps.html


----------



## brandavis (Sep 18, 2011)

Be careful with this diffuser hose. If your reservoir isn't at least three feet deep you won't get the tiny bubbles you are looking for since its made for deeper aquaculture applications. I've wasted about $120 trying to get it to work only to find out that you need about 3+ feet of water to create enough water pressure to get the real tiny bubbles. It's a nice product but make sure it will work for your application.


----------



## pr0fesseur (Sep 18, 2011)

brandavis said:


> Be careful with this diffuser hose. If your reservoir isn't at least three feet deep you won't get the tiny bubbles you are looking for since its made for deeper aquaculture applications. I've wasted about $120 trying to get it to work only to find out that you need about 3+ feet of water to create enough water pressure to get the real tiny bubbles. It's a nice product but make sure it will work for your application.


 You also need a high pressure pump as well.. the standard aquarium pumps wont work....
You must use a pond pump!! for the extra $$ it will be worth it! you can bubble as much hose as you can buy!


----------



## IntrepidTraveler420 (Oct 28, 2011)

As for liters/gals in res to watt/output of pump what seems to be the consensus?

I saw 1W per gal (.5W per gal unpreferably doable) mentioned at the beginning of this thread. I&#8217;m running a 6W pump for 4 8L-DWC&#8217;s = 6W for 32L or roughly 8 gals. or 15L a min output to 32L res&#8230; however you want to look at it. They are doing fine, but I have had some root rot and heat issues. Room temp peaks at 80 and that seems to be what my DWC units peak at too =( . Time to try some new insolation and pump placement. Did I read correctly that the pump must be set higher than your res water line to avoid flooding in case of pump malfunction?


----------



## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 28, 2011)

IntrepidTraveler420 said:


> As for liters/gals in res to watt/output of pump what seems to be the consensus?
> 
> I saw 1W per gal (.5W per gal unpreferably doable) mentioned at the beginning of this thread. Im running a 6W pump for 4 8L-DWCs = 6W for 32L or roughly 8 gals. or 15L a min output to 32L res however you want to look at it. They are doing fine, but I have had some root rot and heat issues. Room temp peaks at 80 and that seems to be what my DWC units peak at too =( . Time to try some new insolation and pump placement. Did I read correctly that the pump must be set higher than your res water line to avoid flooding in case of pump malfunction?


I don't like to rate air flow by watts, all pumps perform differently so there energy efficiencies will be different as well. I calculate my air needs by Liters per minute or Gallons per hour. I recommend a minimum of 1lpm per gallon in a DWC system. I personally use 200lpm for 70 gallons in my flower room(Overkill), and 20lpm per 20 gallon tote in the veg and have beautiful roots.

Edit: No you do not need to have the air pump above the waterline if the tube feeding the air is above the waterline at some point. 

Hope that helps.

Happy growing
UCDWC~


----------



## IntrepidTraveler420 (Oct 28, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> I recommend a minimum of 1lpm per gallon in a DWC system.


Sweet, so my 15Lpm pump is great for my 8 gals! THX!!!!!


----------



## P007 (Nov 2, 2011)

SO , just to bump this thing,


in the scenario where you're growing in the walk-in closet connected to your bedroom, is an ALITA style pump going to be too loud? I currently have two ECO-AIR 4's encased in a box filled with sound insulation going to 4 19L buckets with regular airstones.

I'm going to change things to TWO large rubbermaid containers to make things easier, but it should be roughly same volume of water I believe.

Pretty quiet, but I'd like to up the DO content, using some of the nice disk airstones. I know I need a better pump, but don't want to be sleeping to a bus-motor.


cheers


----------



## dvlzhaze (Sep 12, 2013)

This might be of interest, its my way of aerating my DWC. I call it SRDWC! Maybe it'll bring some new ideas to the table. Check out my video on Super Recirculating Deep Water Culture http://youtu.be/2nd-p8uyxeA


----------

