# Vertical grow - Am i making a mistake?



## ShootToMaim (Mar 11, 2013)

So I am way out of my element...and im scared. Ive been a long time indoor gardenener but stunted in a lot of ways. Ive grown in rockwool cubes on flood tables with gh nutes using the lucas formula for around 7 years now and now that im trying something completely different im afraid im making a mistake. After running 3600 wstts and some close call including the complete tear down of my whole setup midrun (Lamdlord calls and says ill be over tommorrow to do a walkthrough heart attack insues) Ive beem scared off big grows. Cuttimg to the chase i decieded to do something different. Hung one barebulb 1000w in the center of a 4x4 tent and built a cylindrical screen around it. my plan was to place 18 plants around the screen in two levels and train them around the screen as i would a traditional scrog. i was planning on using 1 gallon pots full of loose rockwool as my medium. I talked to my guy at the local grow shop and he tells me i am making a big mistake. He tells me that rockwool isnt going to work well in a handwatered system due to ph climb between waterings and that further more making the plant grow at a 90 degree angle is a mistake and i wont get the yeilds im used to getting. Is he right? I have a decent relationship with this guy and dont think he would lie but he is an older guy and im wondering if this is just the old guard mentality that is against new methods. 
experienced vert growers help me out am i making a mistake?4


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## 509Zman420 (Mar 12, 2013)

he is right about the rockwool medium for handwatering... go coco with that and you will be fine... you can still root in a rockwool and place it into coco... and with vert growing you are able to get more plants into a smaller space and your yield will most likely be more overall, but your yield per plant will definitely be reduced... your guy isnt lying I just do not think he has much experience in the vertical growing space.


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## mrCRC420 (Mar 12, 2013)

Yup Yup, Coco is what you want if you don't want soil (mmm soil). It's basically a hybrid between hydro and soil b/c it doesn't supply nutrients but you still use pots. Sounds like you're just Low Stress Training LSTing your plants around the screen; which is totally normal to do. You'll probably want 2-3 gallons; 1 isn't going to cut it. I mean - dude, weed is a weed, that shit'll practically grow in an igloo. So don't be scared about trying something new unless your bank account depends on it. And also, don't get caught okay? GL man


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## moggggys (Mar 12, 2013)

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=189454

post 3 onwards 

seen a few of these around , it works , proper twat to keep on top of


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## ShootToMaim (Mar 15, 2013)

Thanks for the advice and reasurance guys. I chose to go with coco as suggested in 2 gallon pots. Im playing with ways to hang my second level but havent come up with a good wsy to do it yet. Here is a pic of what i got so far.


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## billydeesmokems (Mar 18, 2013)

How often do you water rock wool? I have heard that you don't have to water too much because rockwool retains water extremely well


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## 509Zman420 (Mar 18, 2013)

Idea on how to make a second row... instead of hanging them just build a elevated shelf out of wood


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## jman1062000 (Mar 18, 2013)

509 and check out that link moggys sent good stuff! go coco!


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## Miss.Rabbit (Apr 7, 2013)

Gotta love that coco! It's a great medium all of my girls seem to love it! I've also been doing a coc/soil FFOF/ perlite mix at a ration of 3:1:1 and they love that at well  
I can't wait to watch the girls grow up! keep up the good work!

Oh and a quick tip with coco... Coco charges up after a month or so which runs the risk of burning the daylights out of the girls. I do a 200-300ppm "flush" at a 2:1 (water: medium)monthly and that keeps the burn away! Also good way to deal with the cal deficetncy coco often presents I add 1tbs per gallon of sweetlime. hope this helps!
MR


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## yeps420 (Apr 7, 2013)

Coco/perlite being ya easier combo ta deal with when hand watering. 
Which if ya like to make ya grows easier and self watering ya might look into P.P.Ks
Coco in smart pots with a wick sitting on a bucket/tote connected to a control bucket set up with pulse feeding. . 
Easy build and people are growing 2-3 lb tree's with it in Bare bulb Vert set ups.

My 1st try with it and im doing some good stuff..
Next season I do 8 x 1 pounders and having a great time doing it...


Bare balb Vert with a dialed environment / monocrop and 2x air exchange will gain ya pound per all day long.

Sounds like you on a good path bro...

Have fun and keep em green...


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## Prawn Connery (Apr 9, 2013)

No, you are not making a mistake. With all due respect, a lot of "local grow shop guys" either don't have a clue (because they don't grow like we do), or have a vested interest in selling you products with the highest profit margin, or products you don't need.

Products you don't need include light hoods, ducting, computer fans and other cooling equipment that you don't need with vertical growing (because the heat doesn't get trapped under the hood).

Coco is also a good idea, as using pots allows you to move them around if and when you need. This can be invaluable when trying to maximise light output by placing shorter and taller plants next to each other in turn to fill all the space around your bare bulb/s.

The trick with coco is, the more you water, the better your results. It is better to water your plants four times a day with 1 litre each time than once a day with 4 litres. I water my plants anywhere from 4-6 times a day using timers. It is a similar principle to hydroponics. You cannot overwater coco (as long as you have good drainage - that's the key!).

In fact, you should treat coco as a hydroponic grow - because it is. The main advantage with coco is it retains moisture better than rockwool or hydroton (clay balls), and is very good insurance for when you either forget to water, or your timer or pump breaks down in an automated system.

Just last week I had a timer failure and my pump stopped working for two days before I found the problem. My coco pots were dry, but my plants were still alive. If that had have been hydro (run-to-waste/recirculating rockwool, aeroponics etc), I would have lost my entire crop.


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## Prawn Connery (Apr 10, 2013)

Here is the plant I almost lost at 6 weeks of flowering due to my timer pump failure. As you can see, all is not lost with coco if you have a pump or timer failure. Timer failures are very common. On average, I have one timer failure a year. And that includes the big-$ timers as well. They all fail after a while because they are drawing a lot of wattage (creating a lot of heat) - 1200w in my case.


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## Miss.Rabbit (Apr 10, 2013)

Prawn Connery said:


> Products you don't need include light hoods, ducting, computer fans and other cooling equipment that you don't need with vertical growing (because the heat doesn't get trapped under the hood).
> 
> Coco is also a good idea, as using pots allows you to move them around if and when you need. This can be invaluable when trying to maximise light output by placing shorter and taller plants next to each other in turn to fill all the space around your bare bulb/s.
> 
> ...


i'm sure you know what you need to keep your space cool man  

When you use Coco the plant grows in a similar fashion to soil, although faster than soil it's slower than hydro. I feed one full nutrient feed once a week and a watering (200-300ppm) if they really need it. Coco maintenance is much like soil you shouldn't water constantly, giving the coco time to dry provides their roots with oxygen while encouraging them to expand in search of water. Keep in mind i'm not suggesting you starve them just pay attention to their needs. If you have to water more than three times a week it's likely you need a bigger pot. 

I've had my fare share of coco, hydro, and soil and I can tell you that Coco is by far my favorite! You get spoiled with coco your going to love it!


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## Prawn Connery (Apr 10, 2013)

Hey Miss.Rabbit, I must respectfully disagree 

Coco is an inert substrate and - in my humble opinion - the biggest mistake people make is to treat it like soil. Coco is in fact just another form of hydroponics. The only difference between coco and rockwool, for example (pH considerations aside), is that coco retains more moisture, because it is denser.

However, even though it is denser than other hydroponic mediums, coco is still porous enough to retain ample oxygen at the same time as it retains moisture (providing you have good drainage - otherwise it's a bit like filling up a bucket of hydroton - clay pebbles - and leaving your roots to stagnate in water). This is due to coco coir's course, granular structure that absorbs water (because it is porous) but also has enough space between each "grain" to allow air (oxygen) pockets.

Just like vertical growing, people have to modify their thinking somewhat to take advantage of coco's unique properties. Every time you water coco, you are introducing oxygen to the root system (just like hydroponics). There is obviously oxygen already in the nutrient solution (unless it has been left to stagnate), but additional air is also drawn into the substrate (root zone) through the capillary action of watering itself. It's just like a sponge soaking up water: except what many people don't realise is the water that is being soaked up is also in contact with the air - as the water molecules are absorbed, so are air molecules that are attached to those water molecules. The air basically "hitches a ride" with the water.

Now here comes the best part . . . Coco is not only porous, it's elastic! Once you have finished watering your coco, and any excess nutrient solution is drained, the coco starts to dry out immediately. As the coco dries out, each porous grain starts to shrink (just like a drying sponge shrinks). As the grains shrink, they draw air into the root zone through displacement. Not only does the coco dry out, but the roots also absorb nutrient solution through osmosis, drawing even more air in.

You need to think about this for second: a pot of coco has a fixed volume. Only part of that volume consists of coco itself (the coco is not solid, so it does not take up all the space). So what makes up the rest of the volume? If you water your coco, the coco expands, but there is still the same amount of coco on the pot! The rest of the volume is made up of water and air. When you remove the water (through plant-root osmosis and drying), air is sucked (absorbed) into the pot to take its place.

And that is why - just like hydroponics - the more you water your coco, the more oxygen you introduce to the root zone and the faster your plants grow. The roots will not drown, because the coco will start to dry out (drawing air down into the root zone) before this happens. When you water again, you introduce fresh oxygenated nutrient solution and air molecules into the pot - which is just what your roots need!

While I don't recommend recirculating coco (fine coco particles can block your pump and lines), run-to-waste is the ideal system for coco for all the above reasons.

So again, in my opinion, hand-watering coco - unless you are doing it four times a day - defeats the purpose of growing in coco in the first place. You are not taking advantage of its porous and elastic properties.


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## Miss.Rabbit (Apr 10, 2013)

Prawn Connery said:


> Hey Miss.Rabbit, I must respectfully disagree
> 
> Coco is an inert substrate and - in my humble opinion - the biggest mistake people make is to treat it like soil. Coco is in fact just another form of hydroponics. The only difference between coco and rockwool, for example (pH considerations aside), is that coco retains more moisture, because it is denser.
> 
> ...


Everything you said is true man.
But as my husband says using coco as if it were only hydro is like having an all star running back who doubles as a wide receiver on your team and using him as a kicker.
Coco is considered Hydro-Organic (Cervantes medical growers bible pg 305), where the two worlds meet.
Hydro-Organic is a means of growing cannabis in an inert soilless medium and feeding with a soluble organic nutrient solution, by organic I mean a substance with a carbon molecule or a natural unaltered substance such as ground up rocks. Dedicated growers who go this route spend the time and trouble it takes because the natural nutrients bring out a sweet organic taste to the buds. When you confine yourself to a hydroponic coco grow you miss out on using organic fertilizers that are available with soil such as seaweed, organic teas, and balckstrap molasses. Also watering 4-6 times a day sounds like it gets expensive in a drain to waste system... My girls love the natural feel of a wet dry cycle and it saves me a pretty penny.

The moral here is Coco is what you make it. When I left hydro it was because I was unsatisfied with the end result, I wanted the flavor and quality of organics but I didn't want to loose the speed and efficiency of hydro. Coco has given me everything I was looking for and I hope you find the same. Each grower finds what works best for them in their unique situation.
I hope this has helped you out! 
MR


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## Prawn Connery (Apr 10, 2013)

LOL! Sorry for not understanding the gridiron(?) analogy, but you're talking to an Aussie 

But I've got some great news for you: you can grow organically in coco! And that's just what I do - seaweed extract and all.

Coco is a great buffer - much better than rockwool (but not as good as soil) - and has its own unique organic properties (because it is made from a plant - coconut husk fibre). As coco naturally breaks down, it release phosphorous, but it also binds calcium and magnesium. So you need to use a fertiliser that is initially (until the coco is pre-charged) higher in magnesium and possibly calcium, and a little lower in phosphorous. I say "possibly" calcium, because tap water - especially if it is from a predominantly limestone ground source - tends to be a good source of calcium in and of itself. Which is why epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) can be a good substitute for cal-mag solutions where there is already a good source of calcium present in the water (too much calcium will in fact lock out magnesium, which is as vital for plant life as iron is for humans). Once your coco is pre-charged with magnesium and calcium, it won't continue to bind and cause nutrient lock-out.

I prefer to think of "organic" - in the plant-growing sense - as microbial activity (living organisms) that colonise the roots and break down organic compounds (fetilisers) into simpler macro and micro nutrients through chelation, allowing easier and more direct uptake by the roots (that's the simple explanation).

It is microbial activity in the soil - as you have rightly pointed out - that gives organically grown fruits and plants their unique and complex tastes and terpenes (which is important in our case, as terpenes not only contribute to the taste of cannabis, but the high as they interact with canabinoids and other active compounds).

But there is absolutely no reason - no reason at all - that you can't promote microbial activity in coco. Nor even in other hydroponic media, for that matter. The only reason many hydro growers use "chemicals" is to keep their lines and pumps clean . . .

And that's the biggest mistake many growers make - to think of "hydroponics" as simply "growing in chemicals". Because, let's face it, ALL nutrients are chemicals - the difference is in the way those chemicals are delivered to the root zone and taken up by the plant.

I grow organically in coco. That is, I use specially formulated organic coco nutrients and additives that contain the necessary microbes and other organic elements that promote root growth and health. I also use a silica solution to substitute the one thing coco lacks that soil has in abundance - silicon. (Though many modern organic coco nutrients these days also contain silica.) I'm not sure what is available in the US and other countries at the moment, but there is a big movement towards organic coco growing here in Australia - something I've been doing for many years and promoting to my fellow growers.

As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing worse than a lifeless nutrient delivery system where unchelated chemical compounds are delivered to the root zone that is kept anti-sceptic through the use of other harsh chemiclas, such as chlorine and hydrogen peroxide. The symbiosis between plant roots and microbes is complex, and should not only be respected, but propagated in my opinion. Certainly, that is, if you want to get the best out of your growing experience.

I will add one thing: you are entirely correct in your summation - coco is exactly what you make it 


EDIT: Forgot to mention that run-to-waste is generally no more expensive than recirculating hydro, because you deliver reduced amounts of nutrients more often to the root zone. In a recirculating system, you add enough nutrient to allow the plants to feed for several days to a week, which means you are adding a slightly higher concentration to begin with. You also need to dump your reservoir and start with a fresh nutrient solution every week or two to prevent toxic build-up of unused elements.

With run-to-waste, one 65-litre reservoir lasts me a week - about the same as a recirculating system. Plus I recycle the waste by adding it to my vegetable garden - it's basically free fertiliser.

The final point is, the more you water and flush your pots, the less run-off you need each time, because there is less toxic nutrient buildup - which means you end up with a similar amount of runoff as watering and flushing your plants heavily less frequently.

Now you may _think_ your plants love the "wet and dry cycle", but hydroponic growing proves otherwise - there is a reason why roots that are continuously submerged in oxygen-rich nutrient solution grow faster than those watered sporadically. It's one of the reasons why soil growers can never achieve the same results as hydro growers.

Organic coco provides the best of both worlds: it allows you to take advantage of the speed and vigour of hydroponic growing, with all the benefits or soil growing (microbial chelation, substrate buffer and moisture retention).


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## DST (Apr 10, 2013)

Grow store people are fun. I went into one shop to discuss something with a guy and explained to him about my vertical grow. He instantly got all negative about it. He even claimed plants don't like light underneath the leaves. What he didn't realise is that in a vertical all the fan leaves will change so that they are lying flat in relation to the vertical bulb.

To the OP, I would get some cheap wooden book shelfs and use them for the 2nd level. I am growing in a 4ft x 4ft cabinent with 2 levels and 2 600's. I built in a shelf system that allows me to lower and higher, or add shelves in there. With a tent it's a bit trickier but as 509zMan said, wooden shelf and you'll be golden.

With a vertical you may not be able to take advantage of apical dominance, but if you get your screen right, then all of your plant is receiving equal light so this should even things out. And you have the advantage of increasing your canopy massively.

Good luck with it.

Peace, DST


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## Prawn Connery (Apr 11, 2013)

Most grow store people are years behind in their thinking. You'll learn more on a forum like this than you will in any grow store. If it wasn't for OG and krusty (my vertical inspiration), I'd still be popping bagseed in soil under a tungsten bulb, LOL.


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