# Laser Irradiation of Seeds for Improved Growth



## ganjaballz (Aug 8, 2010)

A large number of studies have been performed in the agricultural sector with using lasers to pre-treat various types of seeds for germination. The goals and findings include:

- germination of seeds during periods of extended drought
- elimination of parasites and bacteria
- a "kick start" effect of photosynthesis, especially in seeds with luminous shell coatings
- beneficial heating of the seed when lower output lasers are used (10 mw or less) [milliwatt]
- a proven benefit to "living" tissues of all kinds when exposed to non destructive lasers

A substantial number of the experiments resulted in:
- longer root structures
- faster and heavier growth cycle
- vastly improved bloom / crop cycle

Even seeds denied water in germination were able to germinate faster and better than seeds from the same plant in quite a few cases. 

As part of an upcoming grow I plan to test laser treatment of at least two seeds measured against a pair of non treated seeds of the same strain with the same grow technique.

The most common process uses a helium-neon laser of 10 mw in output. These are small, cheap and widely available lasers. For the home lab, the ubiquitous diode based "laser pointer" typically has an output of 5mw. There are lasers available with 200 or more mw of output for less than 50 dollars (US) but combining two of the 5mw laser pointers provides enough output for our purposes.

I'll be using a special laser designed for aligning telescope mirrors which has a variable output of 1-20mw. Photos and results to follow in future updates...

Example experiment of drought stressed seeds treated with lasers:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/r385g26420625665/

High output lasers for the home lab:
http://wickedlasers.com


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## gobbly (Aug 8, 2010)

that is awesome, look forward to seeing your results.


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## ganjaballz (Aug 14, 2010)

I'll come back and add the photos once I edit the EXIF data to insure privacy.

I germinated 8 seeds and used the laser treatment on half of them. For once, I have 100 percent germination success using the plate and paper towel method for 6 of them and the soak method for 2.
The lab experiments used 20, 40 or 60 seconds of treatment depending on the size of the seed. Since these seeds are much smaller than the pine tree seeds I used a 5mw laser for 40 seconds on two and a 10mw laser for 30 seconds on the other two. 
Results:

Every laster treated seed germinated at 12 hour mark. 
Non laser treated did not show tap roots until 24 hour mark.

Removed seeds and placed in starter cabinet after 48 hours.
- The laster treated seeds have longer tap roots, twice as long and thicker than the non treated. They are all about the same among the laser treated seeds regardless of laser output or length of treatment.

- The two laser treated seeds I soak germinated were even better. The tap roots on them were about 1/4 of an inch long. 
The plate soaked / laser treated seeds had slightly less growth.

The non laser treated seeds had taproots at 48 hours but just barely.

I use a modified aero grow system as my starter unit. Once I have established plants they will transfer to a bubbleponic system for veg and flower. I'm using quite a few CFL lights for that system.

As you may have noticed I wear latex gloved when handling seeds and young plants. I want to make sure my grow environment is as clean and sterile as possible as well as prevent nicotine poisoning of the seeds / sprouts. (If you use tobacco be sure to use gloves and wash well before handling).


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## ganjaballz (Aug 15, 2010)

Laser treating four of the seeds on wet paper towels






Laser treated one seed off the paper towel to see if heat would be an issue (measured surface temp of seed before and after using probe - a 4 degree change was measured after 40 seconds of irradiation).






Laser treated and soak germinated pair after 24 hours. These taproots were the longest, over 1/4 of an inch. After less than 24 hours in the aero grow pod these two seeds are already sprouted (more pics coming).






Seedlings placed in aero grow pods for first week / two weeks. The best plants will be moved into a bubbleponic grower.


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## ganjaballz (Aug 17, 2010)

Day 4 Comparison:






Three of the four irradiated seeds have already outgrown the humidity domes.






The difference between the two seed groups is amazing. It will be interesting to see if the output maintains itself through the entire growth and bloom cycle.


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## BL0TT0 (Aug 17, 2010)

oh i'm pullin up a chair, and a spliff for this one
subbed!


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## odlaw (Aug 17, 2010)

souds interesting cant wait to see end results! subbed


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## sguardians2 (Aug 17, 2010)

That's what I'm talkin bout, I'm all in.

Was gonna try this on my new seeds but my lazer batteries are dead.  

Gotta get new lazers!


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## ganjaballz (Aug 18, 2010)

I want to stress that although the results are interesting and so far match up with my expectations based on prior experiments using other plant species, I can't call it "conclusive" at this stage without further testing.

For starters, two types of species control is needed - one of random, different species of cannabis seeds and a second made with identical seeds from a single species. This is the only way to allow for differences in growth between the various seed types. My only supply of seeds on hand for this test were the two "designer breed" seeds and a random assortment pack of different types. My next test will be to use seeds from the same type only, quite possibly gathered from my own plant.

The other factor will be to try different types of lasers. Part of this will involve finding the exact output spectrums of the lasers to see if a specific type / color works better. Obviously this will take quite a few future tests. I'd welcome other growers to assist in this effort, if possible.

I'd also like to test using lasers as supplemental lighting in the grow and bloom chambers. My theory is that a laser provides the needed light frequencies and possibly fills in some of the "odd" frequencies most grow lights neglect in various ways. The intensity of the light and the nature of the electrons being "aligned" vs. natural light may stimulate hormonal production in the plants as well. Hopefully, I can purchase some of the full reports from the prior lab work and see if some of these answers are already accomplished.


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## sguardians2 (Aug 22, 2010)

Just irradiated 6 Big Bud seeds, 1 himalayan blue diesel, and 1 onyx seed. I always germinate in peat pellets, so I will neve see the tap roots. This is not a double blind experiment, just after researching the idea, I thought it couldn't hurt, and may work out as well as the research data shows.

I'm subscribed, and will update my results along with yours, if it's ok.


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## Spanishfly (Aug 22, 2010)

I have a 50 mW green laser - will that work?


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## oOBe RyeOo (Aug 22, 2010)

sub'd. this is really interesting.


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## The Lurker (Aug 23, 2010)

Interesting work, *Mr. Ballz*. I'm assuming the wavelength used was around 630nm or so; please let us know if you find out the actual stats of your particular model. Its benefits in germination with mj at least may prove valuable. I've seen some of the other studies but to date haven't witnessed this with mj specifically.



ganjaballz said:


> I'd also like to test using lasers as supplemental lighting in the grow and bloom chambers. My theory is that a laser provides the needed light frequencies and possibly fills in some of the "odd" frequencies most grow lights neglect in various ways. The intensity of the light and the nature of the electrons being "aligned" vs. natural light may stimulate hormonal production in the plants as well...


Interesting hypothesis. I think a more likely outcome will be over-stimulation of the reaction centers and antenna complexes and increased flavonoid (anthocyanin) and carotenoid production, but those processes (e.g. Non-photochemical quenching (NPQ)) basically take energy away from the building of plant tissues we're interested in. I'd rather not put the plant under additional stress so it can focus on making flowers instead.

I'd say using coherent light of any sort on post-germination leaf structures will, most likely, simply enhance the creation of prolonged singlet Oxygen and triplet states for Chlorophyll (in Photosystem II, mainly) resulting in oxidation and photoinhibition, as free radical Oxygen starts running around the system creating havoc. Enough of that can cause bleaching (breakup of the Chromophores), changes in pH gradients across cell membranes, and worse, for any tissues irradiated.

Thankfully, a laser's coverage will be very small. Not sure you'll be able to irradiate a large enough area, unless you use attenuating optics of some sort. Which means you'd have to increase the mW of the laser used if you want to keep the same intensity per unit leaf volume, also...

An LED would be an easier way to test the application of monochromatic light sources, while keeping PPFD well within the plant's tolerances.

But if you do those tests, I'd still like to see them. I always happy to be proved wrong! 

Cheers mate,

-TL


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## OZUT (Aug 23, 2010)

pulling up a chair for this


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## patlpp (Aug 23, 2010)

You should dub this procedure so you can be famous. We'll call this the "Alan Parsons Project"


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## twistedwords (Aug 23, 2010)

Out of curiosity, What is it that you would be trying to accomplish with this technique? I am only curious as it only takes about 18 hours to germinate a seed anyways and about a day for to get them going. So, I am wondering as to how much faster you really think it will go as 2 days is pretty fast in general. Do you think this will cut it down to maybe 6 hours of germination and only 12 hours to get it started? You are only saving about 6 hours for this much work. Also, how long does it take you to do this technique in terms of hours, as such how much time to sit there and irradiate each one?


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## Hip Hop Grower (Aug 23, 2010)

you can obviously tell were all pot heads, get lasers involved and you can pretty much date anyone who posts in this thread


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## twistedwords (Aug 23, 2010)

You could just put them on a warm paper towel, in a zip lock bag and the germinate them in the dark lying on a warming blanket for 6 hours. pretty much the same thing.


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## Hip Hop Grower (Aug 23, 2010)

did you put lazers on it! nooooooo


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## twistedwords (Aug 23, 2010)

@ Hip Hop Grower: Its been a while since I have used lasers .


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## Howard Stern (Aug 23, 2010)

subed I want to see what comes out from this! I may do a side by side on my next beans just to see! Cool info! Thanks!


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## sguardians2 (Aug 24, 2010)

Using no technique to get tap roots to emerge, I just irradiated 6 big bud seeds, 1 onyx and 1 himalayan blue diesel seed for about 40 seconds each. The laser used is part of a laser distance calculator thingy that is used to measure distances from one point to any flat surface, by Ryobi tools, that I dug up out of my garage. 

Planted in Jiffy peat pellets about 1/4 inch deep. The big bud seeds all popped at exactly 54 hours, and the other two look like they may in less than 72.

I'll keep you posted.

Oh, by the way, I also used Shultz TakeRook rooting hormone powder in the water that I soaked the peat pellets with.


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## littleflavio (Aug 24, 2010)

you know whats so funny about these forum? is that we are stoners and we do learn a lot of shit and most people who thinks that stoners knows shit are fags...were like doctors and shit u know, we do something good for the community not just smokin some bowl of ganja. thats great!!!


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## i8urbabi (Aug 24, 2010)

so does it matter whether the laser is red or green? i have a green 20mw. It can project a beam pretty far and makes for fun light saber duels lol. The next step up from mine (from ssame company) will pop balloons. Does the color have much to do with the process as opposed to power?


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## The Lurker (Aug 24, 2010)

sguardians2 said:


> Using no technique to get tap roots to emerge, I just irradiated 6 big bud seeds, 1 onyx and 1 himalayan blue diesel seed for about 40 seconds each. The laser used is part of a laser distance calculator thingy that is used to measure distances from one point to any flat surface, by Ryobi tools, that I dug up out of my garage...
> 
> I'll keep you posted...


Thanks *sg*, not sure that's going to do much though. I'm assuming that was a red laser also? Most lasers in distance measuring tools are rated at less than 1mW, even for the ones that run a couple hundred bucks. The ones you'll find in laser pointers used in business tend to run 3-5mw, sometimes more - you'll want to check the specs of whatever you're using. The latter would be better for these purposes.

Most of the studies referenced in the literature *gb* is referring to used helium-neon lasers at 5-10mW power output and emitting at *632.8nm*, their standard frequency. At least one study testing irradiation on seed and seedling growth using 5mW lasers treated seeds for *a full 5 minutes per seed*. They also pre-treated seeds for 3hrs by soaking them in water and the ambient temp was 25C. The study referenced by *gb* used a 10mW laser for 40, 60, and 100 seconds respectively.

*I'd use at least a 5mW laser* if you're going to do this at all, and treat as per the above. Note your treatment times go down substantially at higher mW. Don't want to denature those glycoprotein complexes!

Note that _not all studies have shown a positive effect on growth_; some have also had an inhibitory effect, for some species and mW outputs. Don't test your entire seed stock using this method!



Spanishfly said:


> I have a *50 mW green laser* - will that work?





i8urbabi said:


> so does it matter whether the laser is red or green? i have a *green 20mw*. It can project a beam pretty far and makes for fun light saber duels lol. The next step up from mine (from ssame company) will pop balloons. Does the color have much to do with the process as opposed to power?


The primary theory(ies) behind this methodology involve both *1)* A (small to moderate amount of) heating of the seeds (and breaking of kinetic equilibrium via em), AND *2)* A stimulation of the Phytochrome (Pr) response, which peaks out at *660nm*. The lasers used so far run ~633nm, which they've pointed out is only about ~55% efficient in terms of Phytochrome's absorbance at that spectrum. 

The reason most have used a helium-neon laser is they're widely available, and are efficient enough for their eventual intended use - i.e. commercial purposes. A *660nm* laser should be even better; they're less common, but just do a search for them and you'll find some. Make sure it's at least 5mW, also...I noticed a few on eBay for marine use, but they were listed at <5mW...

You can TRY green and let us know what it does, but that goes against the second theory. However, it might provide some thermal stimulation as per 1), above - enough to make a noticeable difference.

I'd be careful irradiating any seeds at 20mW and above with any nm-output of laser for more than a few seconds. You don't want to COOK them(!), you just want the laser to stimulate Phytochrome and perhaps induce a very mild amount of thermal transfer.
--------

*ganja:* here's a few other studies you might be interested in, might save you about $35:

*Influence of He&#8211;Ne laser irradiation on seeds thermodynamic parameters and seedlings growth of Isatis indogotica (PDF)*

*Representation of He-Ne laser irradiation effect on radish seeds with selected germination indices (PDF)*

The second study references several others you might be interested in; see if Google can dig those up for you also. (Second had very small treatment times and was aimed at initial germination only)

Note that all germination is _temperature-dependent_; increasing the temp appears to show increased/enhanced activity and vitality with irradiated samples over the control group (up to a point). A minimum of 25C (77F) is a good idea, as with any germination and seedling growth you'd be doing of mj seeds.

Cheers all,

-TL


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## sguardians2 (Aug 24, 2010)

Good info, I have a laser pointer that produces 1 tiny beam when observing on a white background, at a distance of 1/2 inch. The laser I used covers about the same area but I noticed 6 separate beams all clustered in the same tiny space, also it seemed more intense than my laser pointer.

My results are, so far that seedlings popped in two days and 6 hrs, or 54 hrs, with no pre-germ treatment other than "irradiation", no pre-soak for tap root, just planted in jiffy peat pellets with root hormone powder added to the water. I've never had seeds germinate this fast no matter what other methods I've tried. 

Maybe the 6 cluster beam is stronger than a single beam?


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## twistedwords (Aug 24, 2010)

sguardians2 I hate to tell you but I get seeds to germinate in one day and ready to go on day 2 without irradiating.


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## sguardians2 (Aug 24, 2010)

Update:

Just as I suspected the last two seeds have popped, 72 hrs after planting. 100% germination rate!

I am very pleased with the results so far. We will have to see how these plants respond after they get big enough to transplant into my DWC/Bubbleponics set-up. 

But my main interest in this irradiation treatment was germination time and rates, and so far I'm quite impressed.


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## sguardians2 (Aug 24, 2010)

twistedwords said:


> sguardians2 I hate to tell you but I get seeds to germinate in one day and ready to go on day 2 without irradiating.


What method do you use? And what does "ready to go" mean, ready to transplant? Your first set of true leaves in two days?


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## sguardians2 (Aug 24, 2010)

Anything? 

You there?

Share?

Puff puff, pass?


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## Howard Stern (Aug 24, 2010)

All my seeds from Nirvana I have gotten to crack and have a tap in less than 16 hrs. 100% of the time. Most are around 12 hrs. It has to due with genetics I am sure of. But I wanted to see a side by side with this lazer thing to see the veg growth difference. 

My method that has been 100% germination is
7 hrs soak in distilled water shot glass, dark and around 80 degrees.
then paper towl method distilled water, dark 80 degrees. 

Works every time then I stick them in the dirt 1/4 to 1/2 an inch under CFL's I water the dirt about an hour before I am ready to transplant, then I don't water again for around 5-7 days. They break dirt the next day without fail! I also have them in a humidity dome or have a bag over them.


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## The Lurker (Aug 24, 2010)

sguardians2 said:


> My results are, so far that seedlings popped in two days and 6 hrs, or 54 hrs, with no pre-germ treatment other than "irradiation", no pre-soak for tap root, just planted in jiffy peat pellets with root hormone powder added to the water. I've never had seeds germinate this fast no matter what other methods I've tried.
> 
> Maybe the 6 cluster beam is stronger than a single beam?





sguardians2 said:


> Update:
> 
> Just as I suspected the last two seeds have popped, 72 hrs after planting. 100% germination rate!
> 
> ...


Excellent! *What temperature are you using?* I would note that some of the studies used a lens to spread the light over a large enough area to accommodate the seeds they were using, so perhaps a focused beam at a lower mW would have a similar effect.



twistedwords said:


> sguardians2 I hate to tell you but I get seeds to germinate in one day and ready to go on day 2 without irradiating.


And if you're happy with your germination rates then there's no reason for you to switch. Experimentation isn't for everyone.

Do me a favor though, and download and read the entire first report I linked above. Those seedlings were grown out to 24-25 days before being pulverized for the final quantitative measurements. 

Not only was there an increase in germination activity, they also found a *significant increase in overall vitality, chlorophyll synthesis, water utilization efficiency, and biomass* compared with the control group, among other things. In other words, larger, healthier plants.
-----

So the positive results continued to occur far beyond initial germination. Might be interesting to grow out a few plants all the way to harvest using this and see if it works for mj also, no?

These studies have gone on in various capacities using light treatement since the early 80's, lasers are just the most recent version of this. The overall effects have been fairly well documented using different (non-mj) strains at this point. At least for commercial purposes, this has also shown evidence of:

*1) Better germination %* of older, more inviable seed stock
*2) Better growth overall*

If one can get better germination rates AND larger, healther plants by spending _almost an entire minute_ per seed doing this, I'd say the return on investment (ROI) for the time and effort involved might be worth it - wouldn't you say? 

Worth a try, at any rate. 

Cheers,

-TL


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## sguardians2 (Aug 25, 2010)

Howard Stern said:


> All my seeds from Nirvana I have gotten to crack and have a tap in less than 16 hrs. 100% of the time. Most are around 12 hrs. It has to due with genetics I am sure of. But I wanted to see a side by side with this lazer thing to see the veg growth difference.
> 
> My method that has been 100% germination is
> 7 hrs soak in distilled water shot glass, dark and around 80 degrees.
> ...


Thank you for that info. 

Love the avatar, Stern rules.


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## sguardians2 (Aug 25, 2010)

> The Lurker said:
> 
> 
> > Excellent! What temperature are you using? I would note that some of the studies used a lens to spread the light over a large enough area to accommodate the seeds they were using, so perhaps a focused beam at a lower mW would have a similar effect.
> ...


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## ganjaballz (Aug 28, 2010)

Wow this thread woke up. I had some work issues so I took a bit of a forum break there.

The goals aren't just about germination - the studies pointed to all around benefits in the test plants, especially in growth and bloom. The study that was able to germinate seeds without water after laser treatment was VERY interesting but I'm not exactly rolling in seeds to play around with them. 

I'm going to have to get some more seeds and do another test, I'm afraid. I've had a ton of issues with my hydro equipment and I don't know where I am in terms of a "controlled environment" to be able to claim fully clinical results. I can say the initial results were promising, especially in the accelerated germination and early stage growth. In the past few days I've run into a Ph level issue, rock wool "trash" in my growth medium and clogging my irrigation pipes and a short nute overdose (which I was able to correct in 12 hours time, including the color of the plants returning to normal which blew my mind). I've never seen a plant turn yellowish / green and then go back to normal in a few hours. It's like the treated plants are hyper responsive to the point of seeming "alive". (Yes they are alive but there are variations in there).

I wouldn't use lasers for full time supplemental lighting either - not unless they were moving and tied in with a proven LED system of some kind. I was thinking of just hand treating the plants for 30 seconds or so twice per day. (Sunup and sundown). The missing light frequencies in grow lights are the ones which interact with a plant's "time cycle" in the daily motion of the Sun. I've read that plants react to moonlight also, just not in ways we fully understand yet. An easy solution would be to take the plants outside, of course but we have all kinds of reasons for not being able to do so. My personal long term plan involves sun tubes and fiber optics with an attic grow room...

I think a red laser is required and as already posted, don't cook the little girls. If you have less power you can add more time unless the seed is covered with a very dark and thick outer layer. (I chose sees with light, semi translucent coatings thanks to only having those to choose from).

I'll add some pics here soon. The two plants I didn't treat are light years behind the treated plants. They are growing "normally" - the treated plants are just growing around twice as fast, IMO.


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## Vento (Aug 28, 2010)

Hi 

I love stuff like this , I'm looking forward to seeing results from others AND Trying this myself ... Been needing an excuse to buy a Lazer for a long time ... For something other than just messing about  .

If its a tool i can USE then it gives it more of a chance of being passed by The Bank Manager (The Wife hehe )

I would like to know more about Exposure Times per seed per Power ratio of the Lazers used ... Few seconds ?... 10 Minz ?

Also the Distence from the seed to fix the lazers , I had a vision after seeing this thread and reading the data , 3 suspended lazer unints attached to a rotating ring , Each lazer passing over a ring odf seeds for short periods of time , I could DIY a set up like this but would need to know more about the power output needed and the time of exposure and distence .

+REP for everyone involved in this experiment so far and for all the data produced ... Thanks guys 

Subbed and excited 

V


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## ganjaballz (Aug 29, 2010)

Vento said:


> Hi
> 
> 
> I would like to know more about Exposure Times per seed per Power ratio of the Lazers used ... Few seconds ?... 10 Minz ?
> ...


The experiments I read about used 10 milliwatt, red lasers for an average of 20-40 seconds depending on the size of the seed. According to my calculations, a typical 5 mw, made in China hand held laser can be used for 40-60 seconds depending on the thickness of the seeds outer covering and how dark it is. A thin / light colored shell would be irradiated for less than 40 seconds with the laser held at least 1 inch away. (Lasers don't "throw" thermal energy to the focal point of the beam like a lens focused "normal" light source. The thermal energy is constant throughout the beam but the "energy" of the beam in terms of electrons pushing other electrons out of the way is stronger close to the focusing lens which can create more heat than we want or need). Lasers do have a terminus point where the energy of the beam begins to drop off though. Even a 5mw laser can push that energy out to a mile away depending on the atmospheric conditions though so for our purposes 1-2 inches away is fine.

If you happen to have a "wicked" brand laser in red with a 50mw rating the irradiation time would be around 2-4 seconds and even then you 
might" be cooking the seed more than stimulating it.


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## ganjaballz (Aug 29, 2010)

I thought I'd go over my theory on why this works (based on the success the real researchers have shown as my own experiment is still underway).

The goals of the research projects centered around using lasers to overcome adverse conditions in the initial stages. One of the best was meant to simulate a period of drought and for reasons they don't really explain they felt laser irradiation of the seeds would help the crops overcome the drought.

My personal theory is that the irradiation of the seed "might" simulate the adverse scenario of a seed dropping on dry soil. Perhaps there is a kind of "survival" mechanism in the seed that says - "OK, it's not dark and it's not moist but I'm detecting a lot of sunlight out there. I must be sitting on top of dry soil so I'm going to kick my germination into high gear and get a taproot down into the soil in a hurry".

It's already been shown that simulating various adverse conditions on our plants triggers certain favorable reactions in terms of growth and the chemical output of the flower stage. Maybe the irradiation tricks the seed into thinking it's starting off in a bad way and pushes it to germinate, grow and flower faster and "better". Maybe that brief exposure to the concentrated light source of the laser matches what a seed would go through sitting on top of dry soil in the sun for a day or two?


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## Spanishfly (Aug 29, 2010)

ganjaballz said:


> If you happen to have a "wicked" brand laser in red with a 50mw rating the irradiation time would be around 2-4 seconds and even then you might" be cooking the seed more than stimulating it.


Mine is green 532 nm (it is used for aligning an astronomical telescope - green is best for that) 50 mW - it is a LIGHT SABRE!! 
I will give one of my seeds next year a couple of seconds, see how it reacts.


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## Pimprovising (May 21, 2011)

Ok ive been trying to find out on the internet something about budding with lasers......I just had this idea on my own about an hour ago and there is nothing on the dam internet...leave it to roll it up to make it happen!!! lol

PLEASE SOMEONE WHERE CAN I GET MORE INFO?


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## bamfrivet (May 21, 2011)

since the lazers seem to speed up the germ process, I wonder if you pre-treat a seed with a lazer and use willow water to water the seeds. When I use straight willow water on my seeds they germ by the next morning. Also, I wonder if this lazer treatment would have any effect on the sex of the plant.


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## macdadyabc (May 22, 2011)

this is awesome


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## billy4479 (Apr 4, 2013)

old thread bumb


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## Trousers (Apr 5, 2013)

kewl
I'll try it next time. 

I just bought uvb lights and now I'm using lazers on my seeds.


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