# How many bubbles for a DWC?



## Alpha Prime (Feb 10, 2010)

Whats the rule of thumb here? I mean I get the more bubbles the better but for multiple resivoirs or a few big ones can you just use a 20W Air Pump or does each and every plant need its own air pump? If anyone has pictures of their pumps on/bubbles going that would be nice so I can see and compare it to mine. Thx 4 any tips.


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## Mr. Na$ty (Feb 10, 2010)

The bigger the pump the more outlets it will have. A 20w air pump should have 6-8 outlets on it meaning you can run 8 different airstones. Each plant does not need it's own pump, however it is better to use more then one pump for your system just in case one of them stops working (which it will). For example, a 12 bucket re-circulating DWC could either use three different 4 outlet pumps and have a line run to each bucket, or a 4 outlet and an 8 outlet. That way if and when one of them goes out, your plants will still be getting the oxygen they need.


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## Alpha Prime (Feb 10, 2010)

Ok, that sounds good but does it need to be bubbling like crazy or is it just important that there are bubbles in there? My current set-up is two 30-gallon resivoirs that are filled with 20 gallons and the roots are starting to touch the water. I've got my 20w air pump hooked up with a line going into each rez that supplies bubbles to 3 of the 4 sides. Is this enough or do I need more? I'll take another pic to show the amount closer up, but I won't have it up until tomorrow.


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## That 5hit (Feb 10, 2010)

one is just fine 
but the more the better 
i like to see some much that it looks like a sprayer is in there


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## Mr. Na$ty (Feb 11, 2010)

Too many bubbles can actually damage the root systems. You want the water moving but not violently. How many outlets does that 20w pump have? It should have enough airflow to where you could run another line to each res and get an airstone on the side where there isn't any bubbles. You will still be fine as there will be plenty of dissolved oxygen in the water with what you have going now but a little more wouldn't hurt anything.


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## longbeachallstar (Feb 11, 2010)

If you're trying to maximize the area that is covered by the bubbles and buying a bigger air pump is not an option - a simple and cheap cure is a gang valve. it basically splits the outlets of any size air pump. I couldn't say how much air it will spit out - but i'm sure it woudl be fine.


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## OregonMeds (Feb 11, 2010)

Mr. Na$ty said:


> Too many bubbles can actually damage the root systems. You want the water moving but not violently. How many outlets does that 20w pump have? It should have enough airflow to where you could run another line to each res and get an airstone on the side where there isn't any bubbles. You will still be fine as there will be plenty of dissolved oxygen in the water with what you have going now but a little more wouldn't hurt anything.


Wrong and wrong. Krusty buckets have been using over 20lpm ---per plant--- for over 10 years, 10lpm if you add waterfalls and rdwc. Less air than that is less than ideal. Your pump shouldn't actually be used for more than one or two plants if you are trying to go for ideal and really big trees. 

And yes one big quality pump or regenerative blower is better than a bunch of small ones in my opinion and reliable enough you probably wouldn't even need a backup if you spend the money on the good ones.

The small ones can't drive the same pressures at the same depths.


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## CLOSETGROWTH (Feb 11, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> Wrong and wrong. Krusty buckets have been using over 20lpm ---per plant--- for over 10 years, 10lpm if you add waterfalls and rdwc. Less air than that is less than ideal. Your pump shouldn't actually be used for more than one or two plants if you are trying to go for ideal and really big trees.
> 
> And yes one big quality pump or regenerative blower is better than a bunch of small ones in my opinion and reliable enough you probably wouldn't even need a backup if you spend the money on the good ones.
> 
> The small ones can't drive the same pressures at the same depths.


I use one of these, and I get spectacular results  $64.95

DUAL DIAPHRAGM AIR PUMP
Four Valve High Output Air Pump

The General Hydroponics Dual Diaphragm air pump is extremely quiet and the only air pump in the world manufactured exclusively for hydroponics systems. This high output pump has four adjustable ¼&#8221; outputs that can be teed off to power up to twelve air driven hydroponics growing systems such as the WaterFarm. In addition, growers who use our Dual Diaphragm air pump can use it to reliably oxygenate their reservoir with air stones.
AC POWERED MODEL
With standard 3-prong AC power cord
AC 120V, 0.2 amps
3 psi, 320 gph (20 l/min)


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## Alpha Prime (Feb 11, 2010)

CLOSETGROWTH said:


> I use one of these, and I get spectacular results  $64.95
> 
> DUAL DIAPHRAGM AIR PUMP
> Four Valve High Output Air Pump
> ...


 
Wow ClosetGrowth, your journal is amazing. I'm about to start my journal right now and I'd be very appreciative if you'd check in on it and give me some pointers. After seeing yours I'm rethinking a few things, I like how you experiment too, I do the same. Next time I get $65 I don't have anything to spend on, I'm buying the Dual Diaphragm straight away!!!


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## OregonMeds (Feb 11, 2010)

Dude, 70lpm same price, don't even think about that other I'm sure it's fine but that's not the money pump.

http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=7646


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## Alpha Prime (Feb 11, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> Dude, 70lpm same price, don't even think about that other I'm sure it's fine but that's not the money pump.
> 
> http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=7646


 
The one I've got looks like that, but its bigger (I think) and it doesnt have a handle. I'll add pics of it, and yes I have a gang valve with 6 outlets but I only have 2 with air flowing since I only have 2 rezs


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## OregonMeds (Feb 11, 2010)

Alpha Prime said:


> The one I've got looks like that, but its bigger (I think) and it doesnt have a handle. I'll add pics of it, and yes I have a gang valve with 6 outlets but I only have 2 with air flowing since I only have 2 rezs



There are many pumps that look identical to that, but some are physically larger even though they flow significantly less air/less wattage. You'll have to show the label or at least try to find the wattage. Oh and you really should never only run two outlets off a big sucker like these, use as many stones/soaker hose/whatever as it takes to flow smoothly and with the lest heat build up in the pump so you get some life out of the thing or you can burn it up restricting it.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 11, 2010)

Using ao ir pumps is old school. just get a good needle wheel pump. Smaller bubbles of a much, much larger number so higher you will have water with a higher DO level than when using air stones or just a pump, plus good water circulation from the pumps out put. Water is drawn in through a venturi valve which pulls in air. The pumps impellor chops the bubbles up into very small bubbles. The small bubbles mean more surface area so a higher percentage of the oxygen is transferred to the water.


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## SKUNKWORKS (Feb 12, 2010)

For med/big systems get a Alita air pump or similar brand. They aren't cheap but flat out the best for the job. I got the AL-60 running 6 15 ga. tubs with 4 ecoplus med. sized round air stones per tub no problem.


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## OregonMeds (Feb 12, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Using ao ir pumps is old school. just get a good needle wheel pump. Smaller bubbles of a much, much larger number so higher you will have water with a higher DO level than when using air stones or just a pump, plus good water circulation from the pumps out put. Water is drawn in through a venturi valve which pulls in air. The pumps impellor chops the bubbles up into very small bubbles. The small bubbles mean more surface area so a higher percentage of the oxygen is transferred to the water.


I was very interested in this idea the first time you mentioned it, but still haven't had a chance to test it.

Is this theory you are talking about or has this technique been used before? If so link?

I did a lot of research after you said it before and looked up protein skimmers, then read about various methods they use to aerate other than needle wheel pumps and found spray injection. Apparently it allows more water flow, aerates even better than any other method, and with less power thus less heat. 

What do you think about that idea?
Spray injection dwc?

And I also looked up the needle wheel pumps and could use your help determining the minimum wattage cheapest (but completely capable) pump just to test this for a single big ass tree. I have a danner 7 I could get a fractionating impeller for I guess, is that equivalent? The flow on the needle wheel pumps is low and I'm aiming for 400gpm at 3' with superior aeration than even a krusty bucket. (20lpm+ through 4 big stones just for one tree) I need more aeration than anything posted before but just for the one test tree.


Or I read about modding the impellers on any pump, not sure I'd want to bother though.


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## Illegal Smile (Feb 12, 2010)

At what point does water become saturated with oxygen and unable to hold more? Likewise, what's the point of diminishing returns re: a plant's ability to utilize oxygen in water? Is it true that roots in a res with just a single airstone are somehow deprived?

I have no idea. I always thought a dwc res required little in the way of oxygenation and the hard job for the bubbles was sufficient splashing into the airspace. My only evidence is that since I've been using the high bubble action approach, I have 3 times the bubbles/oxygenation around the roots in the water, but see no difference in the plant's growth or health.


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## OregonMeds (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm not at all concerned with how much air the water can hold or oversaturating, Absolutely I want oversaturated but it's really about the movement and flow too. As long as the air doesn't blow all the water out of the container or the flow is so great it shreds or kills roots. 

Tell us your thoughts on that Fatman. Keepoing in mind my design goal is most aeration possible/least heat. Boiling the roots in cool water. This plan is aimed at 4 of the new 1500w HPS vertical lights per plant and to support a root mass of maybe 25 gallons or even more up to possibly 55 gallons.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 12, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> I was very interested in this idea the first time you mentioned it, but still haven't had a chance to test it.
> 
> Is this theory you are talking about or has this technique been used before? If so link?
> 
> ...


The spray injection system is really just a version of a Beckett skimmer. There are huge numbers i of DIY sites on making a Beckett skimmer. The injector is made out of PVC pipe fittings with a little modification. Inside the fittings a Beckett fountain sprayer is used. 
There are loads of sites with do directions to build Beckett skimmers on reef aquarium forums. You would just need to build the injector portion. They are made for external pumps but could be use with a submersible with just just a few more small fittings to extend the air inlet and the inlet control valve so that it is out side the reservoir above the reservoir water line.

If you already have a submersible pump and you talking just one reservoir with one tree then I would just buy a venturi only to use with th your pump. You would need to control the amount of air going into the venturi with a simple air line valve as use with aquariums. The Beckettfountain heads are quite cheap as they are jus cheap vacumn formed plastic. This link is a bit expensive. Yhttp://www.ponds2go.com/Beckett_Fountain_Heads_7113810_p/bec1420.htm You should be able to get them for $15 to $20 depending on size. 

Larger ventturis are used quite often with commercial NTF and aero systems. Venturis are easy to make in larger sizes out of simple acrylic tubing. Just takes a heat source to heat the tubing so as to stretch it into an hourglass shape and a drill to drill a few holes. It is imply made with two tubes. One must be sized just small enough to slip inside of the larger tube. Typically they do not use needle wheels just a standard pump and the venturis, but with the venturis used on the pumps exit side rather than the inlet side. It produces a smaller bubble than air stones but not as small as a needle wheel pump with the venturi on the inlet. The home made ones work better than the store bought ones.


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## OregonMeds (Feb 13, 2010)

Thanks man, much appreciated.

Venturi on the outlet side? Ok I'm going to have to look into that one. It seems like that wouldn't even work off the top of my head, but I believe you. Must be simple, just seems counter-intiutive given positive pressure on the output side.

Ok, I have more reading to do...


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## fatman7574 (Feb 13, 2010)

A true venturi is when a choked flow increases the speed of the fluid it goes through a smaller hole). The pressure at this area will in fact be lower than the unchoked area, allowing a vacuum to be created. 

Another way to look at it is; Flow = Velocity * Area (F=V*A), area is the area of the pipe at different dimaters. V=F/A As the flow will stay the same (theoretically), if you increase the area of the pipe (Throat) the velocity (speed) will decrease, if you decrease the area of the pipe the velocity will increase. This causes the pressues to differ on each side of the smallest part of the throat and this pressure difference creates the vacumn.


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## OregonMeds (Feb 13, 2010)

Ok thanks, I get it.


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## Earlymorninghigh (Feb 14, 2010)

I'm with you illegal smile, there has to be a point of diminishing returns. I've scene that water is most saturated at 65 degrees. Even if you have the water 100% saturated, at what efficiency are the plants absorbing this and is it really necessary?


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## Illegal Smile (Feb 14, 2010)

Earlymorninghigh said:


> I'm with you illegal smile, there has to be a point of diminishing returns. I've scene that water is most saturated at 65 degrees. Even if you have the water 100% saturated, at what efficiency are the plants absorbing this and is it really necessary?


I don't think anyone knows the answer or the points of diminishing returns for nutes, lights, heat and lots of other variables. They should use some stimulus money and research this stuff. Enquiring minds want to know!


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## fatman7574 (Feb 14, 2010)

In any process where one considers first limiting factors one should always look at which is the first or most common limiting factor to a system. In a chemical reaction you would determine which chemical would run out first and therefore stop anymore complete reactions. Here you would look at which would run out first but you look at it a little differently. First if you supply as much light as is tolerable to the plants without burning them then obviously that is not a first limiting factor as long as the lights are working. Secondly if you use an EC near the top end of what they plants can use without over fertilizing then that is not going to be a first limiting factor. This means your left with water DO. Water DO is the first limiting factor. Oxygen for roots is the first limiting factors in almost any system where the oxygen is delivered by DO as water holds only minuscule amounts of oxygen. 

Water at cool temperatures only holds about 9 ppm of oxygen where at any commonly lived altitude oxygen makes up at least 20% of the air therefore 200,000 ppm of oxygen. Even to match growth comparable to a soil growth in some fairly poor draining soil a DWC system requires air stones or a good reservoir pump circulation system, or something to keep its DO high enough as the normal amount of DO in a reservoir of still water would drop to near zero quickly. To actually better the growth of a soil grow in poorly draining soil a DWC system would need its water to be over saturated with oxygen at all times. The fact that hydroponic grows such as an g aero grow in large tubes and standard hydroponic in very well draining media, or a ebb and flow in very well draining media will out grow a DWC even with water that is over saturated with DO is a perfect indicator that with a DWC system or a NTF system or a small tube aero stem DO is the most common first limiting factor. It is easy to provide adequate light, it is easy to provide adequate nutrients but it is impossible to provide enough oxygen to the roots through DO to prevent it from being the most common first limiting factor.

Diminishing returns when it comes to growing are much harder to determine as all variables are interconnected. If you change on then the diminishing return for all others will change. With ant system the diminishing returns would be at first based upon the first limiting factor. So for DWC everything would be first based upon how much growth can you receive if an overabundance of everything but DO is provided. Then base how much you can lower everything but the DO without decreasing growth. Then determine if you lower things a little more is the money saved less than the cost of the decreased production.

Calculating these things when there are so many variables and so many strains of plants would likely never be tried by a researcher or team of researchers. With mj being such a high dollar product most people just try to shoot for the maximum that their plants will tolerate without much thought as to the cost as all the inputs are cheap in comparison to the finished products value.

If you just wondering about the diminishing return as far as DO. Just pick a system that provides the most small bubbles the cheapest or that provided the most water turbulence at the surface cheapest if your reservoir has lots of open water surface. Turbulent surface water adds more DO to the water than bubbles, however there is usually not much open water surface once the plants start growing therefore from that point on small bubbles provide the highest water DO. 

With a system using chemical fertilizers it is very doubtful you can ever supply to many bubbles. With organic fertilizers there are a lot of oils and these stick to the bubbles outer surface and a bubble layer starts accumulating at the waters surface. With a lot of bubbles the layer can grow thick ck enough to overflow the top of the reservoir. This what Protein Skimmers use a pump that provides huge amounts of small bubbles. They are trying to remove the organic oils so they purposely inject enough small bubbles to over flow that layer of oil covered bubbles in what they call a protein skimmer.


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## OregonMeds (Feb 14, 2010)

Thanks again Fatman. 

The point of what I'm doing isn't really just to improve on the performance of DWC or anything like that necessarily, that would be nice but that's not what it's about It's to simplify, reduce costs, and make maintenance easier long term on large scale RDWC ops that's the real point. 

They have become quite complex and yes like you said nobody trims the fat because what works has always worked and overhead is paid for by the pot anway. Nobody else really sees the point in all the effort to work out the kinks in changing it or doing anything vastly different. If nothing more I learn things and I'm not out stabbing old ladies and stealing their purses.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 15, 2010)

If you want to see a needle wheel pump that will keep a huge, huge reservoirs water over saturated with DO just look at a Reeflo Orca needle wheel. Where there is a will there is usually a way. With a small air pump pushing air into the venturi this pump would work on a 500 hundred gallon reservoir easily.

http://www.aquacave.com/detail.aspx?ID=1348

This is the skimmer it usually powers: http://www.aquacave.com/reeflo-orca-pro-2-br-recirculating-protein-br-skimmer-2633.html


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## OregonMeds (Feb 15, 2010)

Great idea Fatman, I was looking at that pump yesterday... We are on the same page.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 15, 2010)

Earlymorninghigh said:


> I'm with you illegal smile, there has to be a point of diminishing returns. I've scene that water is most saturated at 65 degrees. Even if you have the water 100% saturated, at what efficiency are the plants absorbing this and is it really necessary?


 
Woo dude. 

Consider this:

At different tempeatures 100% saturation is a different level of DO. True. Then also consider water that is aerated or very turbulent can cause super saturation of water with oxygen. WOW! This can be done whether the water is warm or colder. It is simply easier when it is colder. 

People drag up data tables like that below but this is data for when there is no aeration or turbulence but merely lightly circulating water as in a calm ocean, river or lake. The only true way to see what is going on in your resrvoir is to take DO readings.

These are the levels of 100% saturation at different temperature if no DO is being used and all things are at equilibrium.

*32 degrees = 14.60 ppm 160 % of 68 degree DO
*45 degrees = 12.13 ppm 134% of 68 degree DO

A bit more reasonable temps:

*59 degrees = 10.07 ppm
*64 degrees = 9.45 ppm 93.8 % of 59 degree DO
*68 degrees = 9.08 ppm 90.01 % of 59 degree DO
*73 degrees = 8.56 ppm 94.27 % of 68 degree DO
*77 degrees = 8.24 ppm 90.75 % of 68 degree DO
*81 degrees = 7.95 ppm 87.56 % of 68 degree DO
*84 degrees = 7.67 ppm 84.47 % of 68 degree DO 
*90 degrees = 7.29 ppm 72.40 % of 59 degree DO or 80.29 % of 68 degree DO


So if you increase the temp from 60 degrees to 90 degrees you only decrease the standard DO 100% saturation rate by 27.6 %. No big whoopee.

Between 68 and 77 degrees there is only a 5.7 % reduction in DO. Too much worry about too little difference in DO. Too few people seem to understand what the real issues really are so they scream low reservoir temps.

If you are going from the "ideal 68 degree reservoir water" DO at 9.08 ppm to 90 degree water DO at 7.29 pm you are reducing the DO by 19.71 %. Not really a big deal for any systems but those systems where roots are hanging in or laying in water, or where the media water logs easily like rock wool. So basically it is not a DO problem but a poor system design that causes limitations. Lowering the temp of the reservoir water still does not let systems like a DWC take advantage of higher growing temps as the difference in DO levels is not that great between 68 degrees and 90 degrees. Even 68 degree water DO is inadequate for plants at high temps even when CO2 and good lighting is provided as the 20% additional DO of the colder water is not enough additional DO. 

Plus there is the shock factor that comes from spraying cold reservoir water on the roots of a hot plant or having hot plants roots sitting in cold water is quite stressful. Salts like to diffuse from hot to cold water so this means the colder temperature in the reservoir is wanting to cause nutrient salts to flow from the hot plant fluids into the colder fluids of the roots and the reservoir.

This clearly shows that those worried about the Difference in DO at different temps are over blowing the problem as aeration can easily make up for the different normal DO saturation levels at different temps. The major problem is not really low DO if your aerating but is not the lower DO potential at higher temps but the fact the that plants grow quicker at higher temps and therefore need more oxygen at their roots. This can not be supplied by a system where the roots main source of O2 is from water DO. This means not that the ideal temp for all systems is a low reservoir temp but only for those systems where the roots are dependent on most or all of their O2 coming from DO. 

Basically this means about all systems but well draining deep ebb and flow (ie hydroton or equivalent <not rock wool>) or very large tube or deep chamber or tent aero systems where all or nearly all their plants roots are in air rather than laying in water. These systems roots get over 99% of their oxygen from the air so are not dependent on high water DO, therefore they can handle hotter growing temps and reservoir temps.


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## jfgordon1 (Feb 15, 2010)

very informational thread...


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## squarepush3r (Feb 15, 2010)

I've seen DWC growers get trees with over 3lb per plant (granted lots of light). When Heath Robinson did his famous vertical grow here, on this site, he didn't use any airstones, and the roots were sitting in water most of the time. He ended up getting over 2g/watt on that.

While what you say seems to be mostly true, I'm not certain DO levels in water is a bottleneck , or possibly the roots having 24/7 access to nutrients overrides this bottleneck, which other systems can't provide 24/7 nutrient access.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 16, 2010)

squarepush3r said:


> I've seen DWC growers get trees with over 3lb per plant (granted lots of light). When Heath Robinson did his famous vertical grow here, on this site, he didn't use any airstones, and the roots were sitting in water most of the time. He ended up getting over 2g/watt on that.
> 
> While what you say seems to be mostly true, I'm not certain DO levels in water is a bottleneck , or possibly the roots having 24/7 access to nutrients overrides this bottleneck, which other systems can't provide 24/7 nutrient access.


Many systems can provide 24/7 nutrients. There are systems that provide better nutrient delivery and only supply nutrients a second every minute or two.

I really doubt that you have actually seen any DWC 3 pound grows. That is a yield of 1334 grams. Figure a square meter is about 3.2 feet by 3.2 feet. that is apretty goog six zed area and most seed sellers stae yields usually a third the size you are claimng some dwc growers obtained from a single plant. Maybe you ave heard claims of such. Seed growers are known for over stating what an indoor grow will produce under normal cool reservoir non CO2 supplemented cool temp grows and they very, very seldom ever claim anyone will make over about 550 grams in a square meters space. That is only 1.2 pounds. Of course there talking 10 to 12 weeks of budding and those DWC grows could have been much longer than that or the veg cycle could have been long also. 

Yes if you take the time, a long time, and keep both the room temperatures and the reservoir temperatures low you can grow some decent yields even with a fast current DWC in tubes like Heath's vertical or even a standard DWC. A DWC "tree" producing three pounds of dried bud in any reasonable amount of time is very unlikely. Maybe your stating wet weight. That is typically about 1/3 of dry cured bud weight. 

Heath did a bit better than air stones by creating many water falls which keep the water turbulent. What a PITA arrangement though Can you imagine the amount of crap that collects at all of those dams he used. Turbulent water does typically have higher DO than is provided by simple air stones though. There are many easier and simpler methods to provide the aeration though. Really the only good advantage to the tubes was to maintain water depth. 

Try getting Heath to tell you how long his plants were budding. Likely 12 weeks or more plus the several weeks of vegging. I can pretty much guarantee it took at least twice as long or longer to bud out his clones in his DO limited low temp CO2 free system than in a system where high temps can be done along with CO2 and intense lighting without worrying about DO or temps. Given *enough time* and low temps and cool reservoirs just about any system can get yields such as you mentioned. 

Those yields you boast about that others claim to get are not exceptional yields when you consider the time and Kilowatt hours used to produce them. Myself, I would rather grow 8 or 10 high temp quick SOGs per year than 3 or 4 DO dependent cold crops. Especially when each of those 8 to 10 grows produce as many grams per kilo watt hours as Heath's vertical grow, and that is when growing Indica and Afghanis or Indica/Afghani crosses rather than the sativa/Indica crosses.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 16, 2010)

*Ah sucks it is probably just some bagseed stuff growing in an out door 20 gallon DWC.*


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## OregonMeds (Feb 16, 2010)

Oops I took the post away then I see you responded already. Oh well.

I think it was just in soil actually.

Here's the pic so people know what you're talking about:








I know it's pointless, it's just to prove the system.


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## OregonMeds (Feb 16, 2010)

You think 20 would do it though really? I wouldn't think so.


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## OregonMeds (Feb 16, 2010)

Do you have any idea how effective cutting bubbles would be by passing them through stationary cutters versus creating them with the moving needle wheel? The needle wheel is more high speed and active so I'm sure stationary must be less effective, just not sure of the relationship.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 16, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> You think 20 would do it though really? I wouldn't think so.


Please do not take that joke seriously. It was merely a carry over knee jerk response to another posters stating he has seen some growers who have obtained three pound yeilds from a single plant grow  in a DWC indoors I assume. I was merely joking that this must be an example of a 20 gallon reservoir DWC three pound yield grow only done outdoors.


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## squarepush3r (Feb 17, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> Oops I took the post away then I see you responded already. Oh well.
> 
> I think it was just in soil actually.
> 
> ...



How much did this plant yield?

@ Fatman, well, I can't verify if the person was telling the truth or not. The person was using a LOT of light, like 2000W per plant possible. Say, lights on at least 2 sides of the plant, maybe 3. His system is basically a very high speed RDWC, with tons of light, I'm not sure if I can link the pictures here, but ill try


http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f131/doubleds-med-patient-bucket-diy-mpb-buckets-7883/#post129742

and heres some flowering pics

http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f54/doubleds-new-20-light-medical-garden-2915/#post38993

a lot of his threads were moved due to some security issue, but his plants do look pretty huge. He recently sold the rights to his 'grow system' and its going to be offered by a large company commercially.


Also, Fatman, while you are taking the time to read this and reply, I wanted to ask your opinion on strains. Whats a good breeder/seed company, im looking for a strain with good yield and good dankness/potency, preferably 50/50 indica or more.

Can you give any recommendations or suggestions? thx =]


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## OregonMeds (Feb 17, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Please do not take that joke seriously. It was merely a carry over knee jerk response to another posters stating he has seen some growers who have obtained three pound yeilds from a single plant grow  in a DWC indoors I assume. I was merely joking that this must be an example of a 20 gallon reservoir DWC three pound yield grow only done outdoors.


Oh ok I for a second there I was thinking you thought the root mass could actually be shrunk that small under supersaturated ideal conditions as in krusty buckets.



squarepush3r said:


> How much did this plant yield?
> 
> @ Fatman, well, I can't verify if the person was telling the truth or not. The person was using a LOT of light, like 2000W per plant possible. Say, lights on at least 2 sides of the plant, maybe 3. His system is basically a very high speed RDWC, with tons of light, I'm not sure if I can link the pictures here, but ill try
> 
> ...


Squarepusher I'm setting up my 4 bin test MPB grow indoors dd's way, and that's the system that's prompted my work on this other thing to try to simplify/streamline dd's system. DD's system is an evolution of krusty buckets and both systems are using up to ~4kw per plant vertical with 1k hps's now and 1500w hps lights are on the market so the sky hasn't been reached yet. Fatman and I don't agree on dd's and krusty yeilds, I believe dd and all the others, too many involved to pull off a lie and krusty buckets have been around over 10 years. I've been following all of them since day one of ea, over a decade, but don't have personal experience with any of them just been in the closet with dirt mostly, doing personal stuff.


Don't get me wrong those yields are not typical though, even in a system like that.

At the same time I believe the hp aero stuff Fatman is on top of is the way to go too, depending on how plants react to each, so comparisons to come at some point. My concern with hp aero is the way the plants are reported to grow shorter than normal, or more like bushes rather than trees. 


Nobody knows what the yield was on that outdoor thing or what strain it was, that pic is at least 10 years old. I'm searching out strains for each of the above same as you, so can't help you there.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 17, 2010)

squarepush3r said:


> How much did this plant yield?
> 
> @ Fatman, well, I can't verify if the person was telling the truth or not. The person was using a LOT of light, like 2000W per plant possible. Say, lights on at least 2 sides of the plant, maybe 3. His system is basically a very high speed RDWC, with tons of light, I'm not sure if I can link the pictures here, but ill try
> 
> ...


I like Mandala Seeds. Their prices are exceptionally good. It is hard to get staright indica or indica/afghani crosses though as they sell out quick. About the only thing avilable in a straight indica is a heavy yielding Hashberry. Look in your PM for the lo ink. They do have a lot of good indica/sativa crosses though. Most of them at full size in a rtandard grow are about 8 weeks of budding. Much quicker at clone in SOG with high temps, CO2 etc. Drop the budding time down to about 5 to 6 weeks. They send lots of free seeds with every order.

Looked through the links. Did not see anything that looked like anything over maybe one pound per plant ie about 450 grams which is about what seed suppiers state for a yield for a squat meter. His plants seemed to occupy about a square meter.


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## OregonMeds (Feb 17, 2010)

Fatman can you explain what it is that happens to the nutrient solution in hp aero that makes it so you can't re-use the stuff, and what if any theories you may have on how that can be overcome. Also would any of those issues translate to a system that used a somewhat high pressure high volume jet, but nothing on the small size you're working with? Theoretically of course.


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## OregonMeds (Feb 17, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Looked through the links. Did not see anything that looked like anything over maybe one pound per plant ie about 450 grams which is about what seed suppiers state for a yield for a squat meter. His plants seemed to occupy about a square meter.


That would put his yield per watt more in line with traditional standards that's for sure, but don't forget DD's system is strain dependent also and he's taking that into consideration and spent time seeking out the best plant that yields the best in his given space and made everything as ideal as he could. 

He's not forgetting anything.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 17, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> Fatman can you explain what it is that happens to the nutrient solution in hp aero that makes it so you can't re-use the stuff, and what if any theories you may have on how that can be overcome. Also would any of those issues translate to a system that used a somewhat high pressure high volume jet, but nothing on the small size you're working with? Theoretically of course.


It is not so much that you can not use a recirculative system it is more the case that it is just not such a good choice of methodology. Heigh pressure and air atomized sytsems use a very low EC nutrient mix. So low that you must use waterfor your nutrient mix that is zero TDS or very near that level. When your working with a nutrient TDS of 250 to 650 ppm there is not a lot of chance that you can provide a good nutrient balance by just water top offs and added nutrients to raise yor TDS daily. Consider if you are not using much calcium. It has a large electric potential as it has a +2 charge. It would take very little time before you had a huge amount of calcium and calcium compounds in your resrvoir and little of anything else. Basically you end up quickly without TDS being nutrients you don't need and few of what you do need. 

When you compare that with the low cost of the nutrients for a low TDS solution and the fact that for a 1 meter square chamber you are only spraying about 4 gallons per day and that the little bit of water that the plants do not use is almost void of nutrients it just isn't really practical to consider a recirculation system over a recirc system. Then you do not have to also worry about sdjustments to pH either with drain to waste. You need to consider with chambers of 1 square meter or less your only spraying a few ml per every one to two minutes. When your using nozzles that only add up to 2 to 5 gallons per hour total if running constantly but your only running them for about 1 minute per hour that is only 24 minutes per day. ie drain to waste just makes the most sense.


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## OregonMeds (Feb 17, 2010)

That's surprising the ppm would be so low, sure didn't expect that. 

ok
thanks


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## squarepush3r (Feb 21, 2010)

I've been doing some testing with my new DO meter, and come to the conclusion that the DWC isn't effective because it raises DO levels (it doesn't really above average levels, it prevents it from dropping if anything), but DWC is effective, because the actual air bubbles passing through the roots, and root hairs, and getting caught up in the root pores and such. So its the actual air bubbles, not DO levels.

make sense?


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## fatman7574 (Feb 21, 2010)

squarepush3r said:


> I've been doing some testing with my new DO meter, and come to the conclusion that the DWC isn't effective because it raises DO levels (it doesn't really above average levels, it prevents it from dropping if anything), but DWC is effective, because the actual air bubbles passing through the roots, and root hairs, and getting caught up in the root pores and such. So its the actual air bubbles, not DO levels.
> 
> make sense?


Never heard anyone conjecture that before.

Preventing the DO from dropping is raising the DO. To saturate above normal saturation levels however takes alot of bubbles or a lot more surface turbulence than is neded just to maintain normal saturation levels. If you do not believe this possible go just down stream of a water falls, or water rapids and check to see if the water is not higher than before the water fall or rapids. Go to a dam and check the DO level below the water spillway and compare it to the DO level for the water before it enters the spill way. Check the water DO level in a hot tub or whirl pool that has not been running for few days, then turn the pumps and air on let it run for a few hours and check the DO level. All the above example will start at normal saturation levels for the water temps but after the turbulance and air etc the water will all have a saturation above normal for the water temperature. If a buuble takes longer to reach the surface then more of its oxygen enters the water. This means if the bubble is stuck to a root more oxygen will enter thwe water from the bubble. That is true. But the oxygen will enter the root s throughthw water at thesame time rate as it would enter the water without being stuck to the root. It is a matter of time the bubble is inthe ater anfd the size of the bubble. Little bubbles have more surface area per volume so they have more surface area in contact with the water so more oxygen makes it into the water.

This will probaly insight some negative response but plants roots do not need all the oxygen we put into the reservoirs usually. Plants roots do have a limited need for oxygen. 

The problem is the water must maintain high enough DO oxygen levels where ever it is in the entire system to prevent anerobic bacteria from multiply in any area of the system. That means the water in any part of the system such as after the roots extract their oxygen needs must also supply the oxygen needs of any other aerobic bateria in the system and still have a bit of dissolved oxygen in it before it gets back to the reservoir where is has its DO boosted again by a pump or airstones etc. 

If at any point the oxygen level drops to near zero or some say below 2 ppm anerobic bacteria will start growing. And where does this have the greatest chance of happening? Any place where the waters flow is slowed down and is also in contact wih the roots or any organic substances that can feed bacteria, ie dead root particles and such. This happens whether water sits stagnant around roots in aero tubes, in cracks and crannies (espeaially if they trap old dead root apartcles there. Yes parts of ther oots systen are always dieing and being replaced by new roots). 

This low water DO problem also exists whereever roots are in contact with any surface and appears stuck to that suface. That root area in contact with the surface gets a limited DO in that area so it therefore so aerobic bacteria can develop there. That is the reason that root mats should be used in the bottom of NTF and small aero tubes as it keeps water moving between the roots and the bottom of the trough or tube. That is also the reason that troughs, tubes and tables should have a good drop in elevation to the drain side so that none of the waters is depleted of DO before it makes all the way through all the roots, cracks and crannies. Even ebb and flow tables gain by the root mats. This greatly lessens incidences of root rot in all systems where the roots would others wise be in contact with a surface. 

This whole situation is magnified by the fact that the beneficial bacteria and the aerobic bacteria grow/multiply better at higher temperatures and use more O2 so compete more with the plant roots for the O2. In a battle between aerobic bacteria and plant roots for O2 the bacteria will win. So we really supply most of the DO we do create in the reservoirs to prevent aerobic bacteria from developing in large numbers around roots areas.'

Some people simply run lower DO and keep both the aerobic (O2 loving) bacteria and the anerobic bacteria (O2 hating) from ever reaching large numbers.


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## IAm5toned (Feb 21, 2010)

so fatman, what is your take on tubular nft/aero hybrids?


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## fatman7574 (Feb 22, 2010)

IAm5toned said:


> so fatman, what is your take on tubular nft/aero hybrids?


Will they work. Yes. Are they a great choice. Not really. Chamber aero is better. Very large tube aero is real good if you make your own tubes so as to make them say about 32 inches tall and 12 inch wide. That means one 4 foot long tube per each FRP panel. You can grow sog or large plants on 12 inch wide tubes. Two tubes wide for two 250 watt lights, 3 tubes wide for one 400 watt light, 3 tubes wide and 1.5 tubes long for two 600 watt lights and four tubes wide for one 1000 watt lights.

32 inches of hanging white roots in an aero beats the hell out of a small tube aero with a few inches of hanging roots with the rest of the roots being rotting brown roots laying stacked up in zero DO water. It does not take many roots before they star stacking up on top of each other in a 4 inch round tube. That is why a 4 inch square tubes works a little better than a round tube. A little more spread out room.

Trough NTF is OK for SOGS that are budded out immediately from rooted clones without any vegging. NTf is really only for plants with very small root systems. MJ has a large root system. They can be made to work well with a combination system like you suggest as long as you uses some silk screen or root mat in the bottom of your troughs.

Try to get troughs/gutters as wide as you can find. The idea is that you want as thin a layer of roots piled up as little as possible. That means no large plants, butt a butt load of small ones. Large plants tend to develop to much root rot to make it well through budding as their root mass is too big for small troughs. 

The mat or silkscreen allows water to get under the roots so both the top of the roots and the bottom b get good water flow over them. If the rot layer gets to thick root rot will start up and you will see your roots start to go from white too brown. The flat bottom gutters work better than round small tubes/pipes as they give the roots more flat space to spread out so they do not pile up as thickly. Plus it allow for the water to come in contact with more of the l grater outer area of roots.

I am really surprised more people just don't make table troughs for NTF. Just through up a table out of a sheet of ply wood on some saw horse with one a few inches taller than the other. Nail a 2" by 4' every foot and across one end. Get a caulking tube of ceiling tile adhesive and some thick vapor barrier plastic film (visqueen) put some small dabs of the ceiling tile adhesive everywhere and put the plastic down so that you basically have four troughs cover bottom, side walls with and the end plus leave enough to wrap under the bottom of the end with out the cross piece. 

Use a piece of gutter to collect the water coming off the table. Four Wide troughs. This will provide wide enough trough s for larger plants with larger roots system and because the roots cam be spread out across the full trough. For a lid ust pick up a FRP (fiber reinforced panels)panel at home Depot. They are 4 foot wide and are either four foot or eight foot wide. The ceiling tile adhesive remains soft for a long time. It is about the only adhesive that sticks well to the plastic. It is really thick when cold so putting it on top of the hot water heater makes it a lot easier to get out of the tube.


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## mazand1982 (Jun 5, 2013)

haha everyone is such a weeed guru. its really not all that hard to grow weed...


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## plumsmooth (Jul 12, 2022)

MaJor Breakthrough I just stretched the Soaker Hose and getting like three times of more the air flow maybe 5X. The surface break and droplets have to more than make up for lots of small bubbles? Not to mention I have exposed roots between inner bucket (net pot equivalent) and water level. I am looking for that surface break in a few places to coat these exposed roots with constant droplets! Also my new 20 watt pump must have been having a lot of back pressure with brand new un-stretched soaker hose? The same thing must happen with air stones: Very inefficient for a strong pump and maybe even bad for the pump. I was loosing my mind earlier think I had bough a bad brand of soaker hose. Then I thought it was the elbows or the placement of the 2 air lines on the soaker hose!!!


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