# He who controls the seed,will control the weed.



## Tkm953 (Sep 26, 2015)

Remember the end of the wildwood flower song,"well he dug and he burned,and he burned and he dug,till he killed all our cute little weeds.We just smiled and waved. Sitting on that sack of seeds.But seriously,do you think we will be able to go to the nearest seed bank and buy the latest strains ?Doubtful,with full legal will come patents,you will be sold some watered down version or the latest HOT strain will only be available as bud at your local dispensary.The abyss holds lots scary questions.You probably won't get to buy fems or auto flower,straight only and odds at getting a female will probably as high as winning the lottery.Their will be squabbles and lawsuits over who created what.But one thing is for sure,you won't be growing nothing without the seed to do it,and neither will they.We will have seed cartels,cannabis geneticist millionaires,and copyright infringement, price gouging and of course the black market.In our race to legal,we must not lose our freedom of choice,or let ourselves be held hostage by what will be the greedy few that realize this.


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## hotrodharley (Sep 28, 2015)

The vultures are sitting and waiting. The SOBs that bastardize everything for a nickel. The kind that let the others work while they wait to swoop in with bags of money the second the coast is clear. I have stored seeds for years.


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## nuevo (Oct 3, 2015)

Every industry has it's robber barons and scumbags, but there are ways to keep a budding marijuana industry in the hands of the proletariat. For one thing, it's a weed, so it is a very hardy and diverse species of plant. I have found it relatively easy to grow superb examples, from both seeds and clones, indoors and out. I doubt I will ever have the means to do more than a small grow per the Oregon proposed rule (a small licensed grower is looking to be 5,000 sq. feet of canopy indoors, more outdoors), but even that size of grow is more than enough to be able to have a robust breeding plan and the ability to create excellent strains unique to my own little garden and ecosystem.

I can imagine that there are literally hundreds if not thousands of other people just like me in our great now legal state. I am looking forward to organizing small growers and hobby growers into some kind of growers association or co-op, where seeds, clones, and other products can be swapped and/or purchased for reasonable prices. By banding together, we can have leverage against the big money that is surely coming, and keep at least one segment of the industry honest in its dealings with each other and the public.

BTW, there is a hearing next week on the Oregon proposed rules where members of the public can speak directly to the OLCC. see this for more info.

*Public Hearing Notice - Temporary Rules on Recreational Marijuana
http://www.oregon.gov/OLCC/pages/public_meetings.aspx#Rule_Hearings_-_Marijuana*

*Friday, October 9, 2015 - 1:00 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.OLCC Headquarters, Room 103A*
9079 SE McLoughlin Blvd., Portland, OR 97222
http://the%20capacity%20limit%20for%20the%20meeting%20room%20is%20100%2C%20with%20entry%20granted%20on%20a%20first-come%2C%20first-served%20basis./
The OLCC Commissioners will be taking comments on temporary rules related to recreational marijuana. Comments will be limited to 3 minutes per speaker. Written comments will also be taken at the hearing.*The capacity limit for this meeting room is 100, with entry granted on a first come, first served basis.

For questions, email [email protected], or call 503-872-6366
*


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## T.H.Cammo (Oct 7, 2015)

I don't understand why the OP has such a dim view of the future of the seed industry. There has been a seed industry for a _*long time*_ in Europe (where it is legal). As more and more states go legal, I'm sure these same companies (as well as new U.S. companies) will be opening up for business right here in the U.S.A.

I'm pretty sure it will be business as usual (prices, selections, etc.) except that it will be right across the counter, for a change. Remember, every business has to deal with three things: 
1. Supply and Demand.
2. The Competition.
3. Pleasing the Customer.

My prediction for the future of buying seeds is that it will be better than ever! I think the prices will even fall way down as competition kicks in. Of course that's just my un-paranoid opinion.


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## hellmutt bones (Oct 7, 2015)

T.H.Cammo said:


> I don't understand why the OP has such a dim view of the future of the seed industry. There has been a seed industry for a _*long time*_ in Europe (where it is legal). As more and more states go legal, I'm sure these same companies (as well as new U.S. companies) will be opening up for business right here in the U.S.A.
> 
> I'm pretty sure it will be business as usual (prices, selections, etc.) except that it will be right across the counter, for a change. Remember, every business has to deal with three things:
> 1. Supply and Demand.
> ...


Bro have u seen what these companies and the government have done to the vegetable seeds? 
Is a full out war already. They force you to buy seeds over and over, when in reality the natural vegetables are always producing seeds these modified seeds dont produce seeds so ur forced to buy from them.


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## T.H.Cammo (Oct 7, 2015)

hellmutt bones said:


> Bro have u seen what these companies and the government have done to the vegetable seeds?
> Is a full out war already. They force you to buy seeds over and over, when in reality the natural vegetables are always producing seeds these modified seeds dont produce seeds so ur forced to buy from them.


What I'm saying is, Cannabis seeds (for home growers) are for a niche market. If, and when, Phillip Morris gets into the game along with other Agro-industry giants and their "modified" seeds - _*you can simply choose to not buy them*_. I feel confident that there will always be a supply of "Gourmet Quality" seeds available from good old reliable sources. We'll just have to wait and see.

Worst case scenario would be that "good" seeds where only available on the underground market. I'm sure the underground market ain't going away!


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## daloudpack (Oct 7, 2015)

lol hey i wont complain if marijuana seeds dont produce marijuana seeds, ive had enough of males and hermies lol besides there is always cloning


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## since1991 (Oct 11, 2015)

You guys and your "gourmet"or "atisan" quality. And how there will always be a market for "top shelf" crack me up. There is a demand, there will be a demand but you will not be the one controlling or probably growing it. Period. You all are delusional on what you think will be left of this little thing of ours we had all to ourselves for so long. Once mj becomes fully legal nationwide (which is coming alot sooner than u think) 99% of us and what we grow will soon be a distant memory except for a few plants in our yard for personal. If you think the companies ready to get on board with billions for investment cannot grow "top shelf" you need to quit smoking. This whole gig is coming to a close. You all should prepare for it. Save your money, go back to school, do something. It will be so cheap that to grow inside under expensive lights and equipment will be ridiculous. The hobby hydroponic "industry" is finished. I bet thats the main reason Larry Brooke, Founder and CEO of General Hydroponics (and an early pioneer of the indoor industry )sold out to Scotts /Miracle gro and literally flew off into the sunset on a private jet. This happened fairly recently. And he is no dummy. He saw the end times coming. We should too.


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## FauxRoux (Nov 7, 2015)

To an extent since1991 is quite correct. The price of pot will plumit. Medical cut it in half and as the black market dries up so will the high price tag. Indoor small scale will become completely financially untenable.

1 thing I do disagree with though is quality. If you look at most commercial ag products like tobacco you will find that almost all is Ruderalis. Standard practice is to isolate specific strains for mass production which does NOT lend to the highest quality. I'm sure most of you have heard the term "monoculture". Quantity sure...but the automated processes used to save money will likely take a toll even if the genetics _are_ there. And last I checked cigs were so packed with chemical and preservatives how could you tell the quality of the tabacco in the first place. So there will likely be some room for "artisan" growers. We do have farmers markets after all. 

This does not however necessarily (or even likely) mean that there will be room left for closet "artisan" growers other then personal as those folks will still likely be growing it in the acres for it to be viable enough to make a living....I mean...how many people do you know that make a living growing exotic mushrooms, wasabi, echinacea or any number of other relitively high priced specialty crops in their closet/garage?

In school half a commercial ag degree (honestly probably more then half) is spent learning how to keep a farm financially viable. General rule is you must expand by 10% a year just to keep up with inflation alone. There is a reason why you don't see family sized farms anymore, commercial ag has made them extinct with cheap low quality monoculture crops...and its a DAMN shame for more reasons then I feel like getting into.

You know who was the greatest boon to Marijuana cultivation? Ronald Reagan. Without the war on drugs not only would growers have never brought the plants indoors but without the high prices as a result of the black market no one would have spent the time and money breeding marijuana into the plant it has become today. At least not nearly as fast. How's that for irony?


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## Vikerus Forrest (Nov 22, 2015)

Can't patent Life. Or have we forgotten?
Only way this could happen is if someone gets the extremely stupid idea to make GMO seeds.


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## kermit2692 (Dec 7, 2015)

Lol.. Marijuana always has and always will be produced by the people that love it.. Look at alcohol, still room for the small guy.. Only with weed I foresee the big guy being the small guy, all of us feel the same we don't want that.. Supply and demand, and the demand will always be for my supply..


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## since1991 (Dec 7, 2015)

Wow. Growers are in a big suprise coming soon is all i can tell you. Does anyone realize whats going to happen with full marijuana legalization at the federal level? The impact will be huge. No grower can truly see it because its had black market prices for so long. Be safe prepared is all iam saying. Growers shipping units from michigan to southern last to go with legalization states. And they have been for a few years now. I can get units of indoor fire holy grail kush and other really grown well top shelf buds all day in Flint for 2000$ or less even. Prices are dropping through the floor since about 2011. And they will continue.Every one is making a dash to grab what cash is there. There still money to be made but you have to expand your sites and rooms amongst other things. Folks. Dont get stuck in your ways ....this cash cow is drawing to a close soon.


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## since1991 (Dec 7, 2015)

Marijuana will not only be produced by people that "love it". Matter of fact joe cool grower witll definitely be in the minority. Small plot oitside or small greenhouse maybe. When prices drop to 50 or 100 or even250$ a pound (and thats HUGE to traditional farmers/ big ag companies) you wont turn on any hps indoors. You wont. And big money companies can and will grow ALL DIFFERENT VARIETIES AND GRADES OF CANNABIS. Craft grown .....puhllease. Cmon.


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## FauxRoux (Dec 7, 2015)

As I've said, I work in commercial ag.....most of the big companies in CA are either preparing or looking into getting in on it. Since1991 is right...Those of you who think there will be a viable market best prepare for a letdown. I cant even tell you how many aging hippies i know over 50 who havnt done anything else for the last 30 years....those that weren't smart enough to save or invest are currently fucked..mostly working as trimmers now. Amsterdam only has a market cause its not quite legal. Here in CA you are FIGHTING for $1800 a lb for top shelf indoor...and no one wants less then 10 which of course drops the price further.

Its going to get worse. If your making money...start saving it.


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## texasjack (Dec 7, 2015)

You'll need a field to make money, just like all other crops. And really, why should it be any different?


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## FauxRoux (Dec 7, 2015)

texasjack said:


> You'll need a field to make money, just like all other crops. And really, why should it be any different?


Well I can see it garnering a high commercial price tag like Wasabi or Echinacea given its medicinal and various uses. But nowhere even close to even current black market prices. 

Although given the ease of cultivation I could be wrong on that. In all honesty it really doesn't take any more skill then tomato's.



p.s. Keep in mind when I say high wasabi still only goes for $160 a kilo and is the most expensive crop in the world (last I checked).


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## kermit2692 (Dec 7, 2015)

Lol I understand prices are low I Mean it's harvest season and every Jack ass with spider mites is trying to sell his crop for 1500a p to out of state buyers so I get it, then everybody else goes and competes with that and sells good shit for a fraction more... That aside there will just always be room to make a living, just won't happen like you think, not anytime soon! What you forsee is the complete take over of an industry and that is far off time wise and anyway I hope to be sitting at the top of that mountain not this asshole Phillip morris... You claim they can match my quality, I say they can never match my passion and will and my quality is there.. You're forgetting something important too, the taxes added into rec in co make it cost prohibitive to buy legally for anyone that knows a guy like me.. And I plan to go legal anyway, at that point I don't see this likelihood that some grower gets so big I can't compete and have no market left.. It's just not the way we all roll.. I'll say it again there will always be room to make money..I can tell you're from Cali because of your opinion even if you didn't make it obvious, it's very different there, the one state with a supply larger than demand so if anything it's your growers screwing it up they need to sit on their crop and demand the higher prices.. Idk I'm rambling now I see your point just don't think it will play out that hard


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## FauxRoux (Dec 8, 2015)

kermit2692 said:


> Lol I understand prices are low I Mean it's harvest season and every Jack ass with spider mites is trying to sell his crop for 1500a p to out of state buyers so I get it, then everybody else goes and competes with that and sells good shit for a fraction more... That aside there will just always be room to make a living, just won't happen like you think, not anytime soon! What you forsee is the complete take over of an industry and that is far off time wise and anyway I hope to be sitting at the top of that mountain not this asshole Phillip morris... You claim they can match my quality, I say they can never match my passion and will and my quality is there.. You're forgetting something important too, the taxes added into rec in co make it cost prohibitive to buy legally for anyone that knows a guy like me.. And I plan to go legal anyway, at that point I don't see this likelihood that some grower gets so big I can't compete and have no market left.. It's just not the way we all roll.. I'll say it again there will always be room to make money..I can tell you're from Cali because of your opinion even if you didn't make it obvious, it's very different there, the one state with a supply larger than demand so if anything it's your growers screwing it up they need to sit on their crop and demand the higher prices.. Idk I'm rambling now I see your point just don't think it will play out that hard


Just my states problem, huh? So kinda like how Idaho patatos aren't sold in Idaho? Higher price out of state? No offense man, but I make a living growing crop's. Regular ones. If you think your growing a finer crop in a garage then a (small) 20 acre farmer then your kidding yourself. Those boys know their trade and 20 acres with the right equipment blows a "hobbiest" out of the water. 

Anyway...the point being, no ones arguing against your ability to grow a AAA+ crop..... But when big ag can grow something similar for 1/3 the price then you paid for your electric alone...well....good luck trying to make a buck after overhead.


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## kermit2692 (Dec 8, 2015)

Quick just Ockham's razer kind of thought first off, there will be many many cases where big ag will have no interest in changing the crop farm to farm, again this is coming to what state you're in, with water so scarce it makes sense many farmers will want to get into a higher profit crop there.. So We will agree to disagree I just don't see it happening how you think it will across the whole country because I'm in a state where that awesome 20 acre crop is going to and yes I see the neglect, the bugs, even the great stuff we get from there I can tell when it's from a massive outdoor grow. And we aren't getting much of anything from co. That tells me Colorado growers have less of a need to export. Ca garnered such a reputation of the place to be for weed for ten twenty years now, couple that with my generation coming of age to take over some of rich daddy's land to build a place in the triangle and grow on large scales, many ogs out there too doing their thing from before we were around. It's a boiling point and right now the cheapest worst stuff is coming our way same as every year at harvest season. You guys keep the best for yourselves it stays in state mostly so I'm not saying there isn't bomb and I've gotten some of it many times I'm just saying that's part of why we see the future differently, when the density in ca spreads out as it becomes easier and easier to get in the industry and more states legalize, I believe prices will flatten out again instead of this little drop we are seeing. You guys have pressure there to sell and the price gets driven down. As more people grow there more must export and simultaneously their market is getting choked out as other states supply themselves and again you see a price cut. Understand that that lb you drop for 2g gets flipped on my state and easily for 24-26 if it's a personal buddy up to 3 even and, brace yourself, up to 38 if it's prime stuff So I do think there's huge opportunity left in every state that has not legalized yet as they do, and some that have. Lol I would appreciate if some of you guys would sit on your crop at harvest, Chuck your failures (spider mites), and stop selling cheap to middlemen that would help stop driving the prices down at all in the first place!! On the matter of outdoor vs indoor cost and price elsewhere than ca, if it gets to the point California is at (which it won't due to reasons I explain above) 

I know for a fact there will always be someone willing to pay whatever I ask as long as I can produce a better product.

W.W.


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## FauxRoux (Dec 8, 2015)

kermit2692 said:


> Quick just Ockham's razer kind of thought first off, there will be many many cases where big ag will have no interest in changing the crop farm to farm, again this is coming to what state you're in, with water so scarce it makes sense many farmers will want to get into a higher profit crop there.. So We will agree to disagree I just don't see it happening how you think it will across the whole country because I'm in a state where that awesome 20 acre crop is going to and yes I see the neglect, the bugs, even the great stuff we get from there I can tell when it's from a massive outdoor grow. And we aren't getting much of anything from co. That tells me Colorado growers have less of a need to export. Ca garnered such a reputation of the place to be for weed for ten twenty years now, couple that with my generation coming of age to take over some of rich daddy's land to build a place in the triangle and grow on large scales, many ogs out there too doing their thing from before we were around. It's a boiling point and right now the cheapest worst stuff is coming our way same as every year at harvest season. You guys keep the best for yourselves it stays in state mostly so I'm not saying there isn't bomb and I've gotten some of it many times I'm just saying that's part of why we see the future differently, when the density in ca spreads out as it becomes easier and easier to get in the industry and more states legalize, I believe prices will flatten out again instead of this little drop we are seeing. You guys have pressure there to sell and the price gets driven down. As more people grow there more must export and simultaneously their market is getting choked out as other states supply themselves and again you see a price cut. Understand that that lb you drop for 2g gets flipped on my state and easily for 24-26 if it's a personal buddy up to 3 even and, brace yourself, up to 38 if it's prime stuff So I do think there's huge opportunity left in every state that has not legalized yet as they do, and some that have. Lol I would appreciate if some of you guys would sit on your crop at harvest, Chuck your failures (spider mites), and stop selling cheap to middlemen that would help stop driving the prices down at all in the first place!! On the matter of outdoor vs indoor cost and price elsewhere than ca, if it gets to the point California is at (which it won't due to reasons I explain above)
> 
> I know for a fact there will always be someone willing to pay whatever I ask as long as I can produce a better product.
> 
> W.W.


Hahah.....weeeeell.....look...exporting out of CA has been most peoples game since the game started. Nothing new there. people here and everywhere trying to make a living do NOT keep back the best...its first out the door as (especially this time of year) you're competing with every other grower. 10 years ago a lb was 42 in CA and 8k in new york. Folks were muling thier asses off. Nothing comes out of CO cause half of what is there is from CA. trying to keep them supplied is partly why this and last year was the first time in about 6-7 years that growers have been able to haggle and prices came up a bit. And while your right about some of the price fluctuations and the reasons for them at the end of the day the average price being cut in half over the last 5-7 years is cause of the increasingly legal medical status and the clubs ability to grow for their patients, effectively pushing OG growers out of the market. Full legality will not reverse this.

Thankfully this has backfired at the lower end of the market. With lower pay most OG growers sell their shwag to the clubs (who still charge $50-60 a 1/8th despite buying at $2k) and so many people are going back to their street dealer who now sells a typically similar/better product for $25-30 1/8th. I dont know anyone that buys anything but edibles from clubs these days. Granted as you said I AM in CA.

To break this down ill put it like this ...Ive heard the "boutique" argument...and while I can see some room for it and agree that Marijuana as a legal crop is NOT going to go the way of big tobacco, I would say it WILL go the route of micro breweries at best. Now I would say we ALL know someone who's home brewing beer, but if you ask them what it costs to do so they will tell you after overhead and supplies it comes out to very close to the price of good micro brew at the store. Now while I like my friends home brew and much of it is quite good I cant say its better then some of my favorite microbreweries like dogfish, Mendocino brewery, lost cost..etc etc.

Now I agree some home brewers are just as talented as some of these micro breweries....the question is...how many people actually make it to that level? and how many home brewers do YOU know making a living doing it?


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## abalonehx (Dec 8, 2015)

I think there's enough seriously addicted seed hoarders just on this board that have caches
of dank genetics, you need not worry about the near future post-legalization dystopia.
They can't stop the underground.


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## FauxRoux (Dec 8, 2015)

abalonehx said:


> I think there's enough seriously addicted seed hoarders just on this board that have caches
> of dank genetics, you need not worry about the near future post-legalization dystopia.
> They can't stop the underground.


I dont think anyone thinks it will STOP. Most of us just dont think it will be profitable. So depending on your outlook or relationship with the plant this change may not matter to you 1 iota.


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## kermit2692 (Dec 8, 2015)

FauxRoux said:


> Hahah.....weeeeell.....look...exporting out of CA has been most peoples game since the game started. Nothing new there. people here and everywhere trying to make a living do NOT keep back the best...its first out the door as (especially this time of year) you're competing with every other grower. 10 years ago a lb was 42 in CA and 8k in new york. Folks were muling thier asses off. Nothing comes out of CO cause half of what is there is from CA. trying to keep them supplied is partly why this and last year was the first time in about 6-7 years that growers have been able to haggle and prices came up a bit. And while your right about some of the price fluctuations and the reasons for them at the end of the day the average price being cut in half over the last 5-7 years is cause of the increasingly legal medical status and the clubs ability to grow for their patients, effectively pushing OG growers out of the market. Full legality will not reverse this.
> 
> Thankfully this has backfired at the lower end of the market. With lower pay most OG growers sell their shwag to the clubs (who still charge $50-60 a 1/8th despite buying at $2k) and so many people are going back to their street dealer who now sells a typically similar/better product for $25-30 1/8th. I dont know anyone that buys anything but edibles from clubs these days. Granted as you said I AM in CA.
> 
> ...


Ok I see your points, and it's good to get perspective from other states.. But I'm determined and maybe you're right the profit won't be so easy to come by but I'm still hearing from you that there's a demand to be filled even in co. I think I have the skills to carve myself a spot large enough to live comfortably, I guess only time will tell exactly how cutthroat the industry will get as it legalizes and as more people grow i guess :/ and i want to clarify that again i see some absolute fire come out of ca but it just seems like around harvest every year someone is slinging some mite riddled outdoor along side it so i assumed the nicest stuff was easier to sell for a bit more locally and that battle of quality might be playing into prices to some degree.. Idk I'll give it everything I've got this is my goal, and many others but most of them don't take step one those that do i can out compete i feel.. Oh well i will see how it ends up!


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## FauxRoux (Dec 9, 2015)

kermit2692 said:


> Ok I see your points, and it's good to get perspective from other states.. But I'm determined and maybe you're right the profit won't be so easy to come by but I'm still hearing from you that there's a demand to be filled even in co. I think I have the skills to carve myself a spot large enough to live comfortably, I guess only time will tell exactly how cutthroat the industry will get as it legalizes and as more people grow i guess :/ and i want to clarify that again i see some absolute fire come out of ca but it just seems like around harvest every year someone is slinging some mite riddled outdoor along side it so i assumed the nicest stuff was easier to sell for a bit more locally and that battle of quality might be playing into prices to some degree.. Idk I'll give it everything I've got this is my goal, and many others but most of them don't take step one those that do i can out compete i feel.. Oh well i will see how it ends up!


Well Im certainly rooting for ya and best of luck.


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## since1991 (Dec 9, 2015)

FauxRoux.....you say it better than i can thats for sure. Its not going to happen overnight. Of course not. Its kinda already happening though. Its just big ag hasnt gotten hold of it.....yet. But its coming. I know of several growers that are seriously scaling down or just the opposite....doubling or tripling the lamps or greenhouse sizes just to rip it big to grab that last chunk of black market cash. We will see what happens i. The next 4 to 8 years how many of us old timey growers are still digging and running. I cant stand the dark evil nature of the drug but the future is opium poppies. Mexican cartels done figured this out. If you got the balls. If you dont mind selling base raw poison basically.....yes the future is opium poppies.


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## since1991 (Dec 9, 2015)

Iam just gonna chime in here one more time. And say this as bluntly and grounded in reality as much as i can to wake some of you growers up. Ive been growing marijuana in some fashion in some state since the early nineties. Ive seen it all but nothing like whats been going on since about 2005 with the big push towards full on legalization. Iam already past being scared. Its inevitable. By the end of this next jack ass president (i think whoever gets it will be a full 2 terms) no one on these forums or anyone you know will be growing marijuana inside or out for a living. Not even a supplemented income. There will be no profit there. Take that however you want. Dont let your "passion", your ability, your work ethic with the crop, your "top shelf artisian quality genetics delude your brain from it either. Believe me.....there are a ton (literally hundreds of thousands of growers) that have the same passion, skills, genetics , etc as you do. Lose the ego. I know its hard. Its inherent with the whole nature of what we been doing for 25+ years. And prepare for a reality check.The future belongs to those who prepare for it now.


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## since1991 (Dec 9, 2015)

Its almost like the younger or newer growers have just started to get really good at growing. They love it. They got the shit dialed and on point. Its becoming "easy" now. They stuck to it for the last few years and they are growing some seriuos fire. And theres good money rolling in there wallet. I know...its all really nice rite now. Beleive me..been there. Just want to inject a little reality into what it is thats about to happen. Iam with you. I want this little gravy train to keep rolling forever too. But its not. Its going to come to a grinding halt for just about all of us. The big money people are coming in and they will buy out even the big warehouse guys you see on cnn. They buy out politicians to enact policy that they will ultimately benefit from. They will buy up and or construct huge greenhouses. There is too much money in this for them not to. Moving units or zips to your brokers or your buddies is going bye bye. And alot sooner than you or i think.


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## FauxRoux (Dec 9, 2015)

since1991 said:


> Its almost like the younger or newer growers have just started to get really good at growing. They love it. They got the shit dialed and on point. Its becoming "easy" now. They stuck to it for the last few years and they are growing some seriuos fire. And theres good money rolling in there wallet. I know...its all really nice rite now. Beleive me..been there. Just want to inject a little reality into what it is thats about to happen. Iam with you. I want this little gravy train to keep rolling forever too. But its not. Its going to come to a grinding halt for just about all of us. The big money people are coming in and they will buy out even the big warehouse guys you see on cnn. They buy out politicians to enact policy that they will ultimately benefit from. They will buy up and or construct huge greenhouses. There is too much money in this for them not to. Moving units or zips to your brokers or your buddies is going bye bye. And alot sooner than you or i think.


Well its no surprise growers these days have skills. There's a multi million dollar industry supplying them specialty equipment. Just like the CA goldrush. I doubt as many would be as into it if we were still at that magical day we realized you could use shop lights instead of 20-30 fluorescent tubes strapped together, and all for $10-20 lids.

Still thougthough....i dont think it will be a grinding halt or major takeover. It will simply be a gradual drop in market value as large production ramps up, flooding the market. Again, I understand that mass production isnt organic permaculture...but other then people growing a few raised beds in the yard MOST folks still buy their organic produce from a farmers market...and lets be honest...those small farmers have more experience, space, equipment, budget and knowhow then your average bear.

The only thing I personally think the average grower is diluting themselves about with this is that somehiw this crop wont go the way of literally every other speciality crop.

But having said that Im certainly rooting for each and every one of us.


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## since1991 (Dec 9, 2015)

What you will see is the smaller basement , tent, closet, spare room guys start shutting down. Then it will work its way up to the spare rental house ops across town. There are several of those in michigan. Then the bigger out door plots wont get cared for as much. Then it will just compound on itself when smokers realize they can buy an ounce of good marijuana at a store (specialty or not ) for about 25 to 50$. The smaller guys will eat it first. They already are in my town. Zips going for 150$ or less. Its not worth it for these smaller dudes to turn the lights on. The ones still running a room in a basement or a tent guy is just wanting thier own clean smoke that they know where it comes from. Ive scaled down myself. Shut 3 houses down in the last 2 years. Just not worth it. I basically got a veg house and my flower house in the same neighborhood. Its still viable but its brutal out here. 10 years ago it was no problem. Gone soon as it was cured. As much as i could give out. To maybe 3 brokers. Not now. Thank god i got a decent wage slave job. Michigan is going legal soon. Iam pretty much done when that happens. I will run a few sativas in my backyard greenhouse but other than that iam finished. Let the rest of you fight over scraps. And it will slowly decay more and more within that time frame.


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## Joegrowsalot (Jan 22, 2016)

kermit2692 said:


> Quick just Ockham's razer kind of thought first off, there will be many many cases where big ag will have no interest in changing the crop farm to farm, again this is coming to what state you're in, with water so scarce it makes sense many farmers will want to get into a higher profit crop there.. So We will agree to disagree I just don't see it happening how you think it will across the whole country because I'm in a state where that awesome 20 acre crop is going to and yes I see the neglect, the bugs, even the great stuff we get from there I can tell when it's from a massive outdoor grow. And we aren't getting much of anything from co. That tells me Colorado growers have less of a need to export. Ca garnered such a reputation of the place to be for weed for ten twenty years now, couple that with my generation coming of age to take over some of rich daddy's land to build a place in the triangle and grow on large scales, many ogs out there too doing their thing from before we were around. It's a boiling point and right now the cheapest worst stuff is coming our way same as every year at harvest season. You guys keep the best for yourselves it stays in state mostly so I'm not saying there isn't bomb and I've gotten some of it many times I'm just saying that's part of why we see the future differently, when the density in ca spreads out as it becomes easier and easier to get in the industry and more states legalize, I believe prices will flatten out again instead of this little drop we are seeing. You guys have pressure there to sell and the price gets driven down. As more people grow there more must export and simultaneously their market is getting choked out as other states supply themselves and again you see a price cut. Understand that that lb you drop for 2g gets flipped on my state and easily for 24-26 if it's a personal buddy up to 3 even and, brace yourself, up to 38 if it's prime stuff So I do think there's huge opportunity left in every state that has not legalized yet as they do, and some that have. Lol I would appreciate if some of you guys would sit on your crop at harvest, Chuck your failures (spider mites), and stop selling cheap to middlemen that would help stop driving the prices down at all in the first place!! On the matter of outdoor vs indoor cost and price elsewhere than ca, if it gets to the point California is at (which it won't due to reasons I explain above)
> 
> I know for a fact there will always be someone willing to pay whatever I ask as long as I can produce a better product.
> 
> W.W.


I totally agree


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## hellmutt bones (Jan 22, 2016)

Bro!
Did you know that all these big produce "companies" have mass murdered all these rurral 3world farmers/people, just to monopolize the exotic fruit from other countries!
Bro!


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## I.G.Rowdit (Feb 9, 2016)

hellmutt bones said:


> Bro have u seen what these companies and the government have done to the vegetable seeds?
> Is a full out war already. They force you to buy seeds over and over, when in reality the natural vegetables are always producing seeds these modified seeds dont produce seeds so ur forced to buy from them.


What you are blaming on some vague conspiracy is simply a biological reality, hybrids do not come true from seed. Whether you are dealing with corn or cannabis you are a prisoner of the intersection of biology and commerce. Hybrids offer better performance so seed companies develop hybrids. The price you as the grower pay is that you have to buy hybrid seeds from the seed company. 

If you want vegetable plants that come true from seed there are innumerable commercial sources and you can always just save your own seed. I've been growing the same summer squash variety for almost 25 years and never purchases a single seed.

Take a look at the cannabis seed industry. To my knowledge nobody bases their business model on stable, fixed strains. They may say they do but in 20 years of growing cannabis from seed I've yet to see a seed grown strain, regardless of price or provenance, that had the consistency of a pack of tomato seeds purchased at Walmart.

If there is a conspiracy here it is cannabis seed producers implying that their seed will produce plants that are 100% like the pictured variety. In reality, some plants may be like or even superior to the 'original' but most will be different.


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## since1991 (Feb 9, 2016)

Cannabis being the plant that it is will always have some variation no matter what is done in the breeding. Very difficult to nail down in my limited understanding of breeding. Believe it or not ive seen more uniformity and stability in properly made feminized seed from the few that do it exceptionally well. The most uniform stable cultivar that you can actually call a "variety" ive grown has got to be original Skunk #1 from the handful of Dutch seed companys years ago. Now iam not so sure. After that it gets murky.....blueberry, ak47, white (black) widow being the next in line. Silver Haze? Forget it. Haze is notorious gor being elusive on phetotype uniformity.


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## kermit2692 (Feb 9, 2016)

There's just so many attributes available within cannabis that variation is nearly impossible to separate. I agree Fems seem to have more stability, because they are all back crosses??? I think..


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## hellmutt bones (Feb 9, 2016)

I.G.Rowdit said:


> What you are blaming on some vague conspiracy is simply a biological reality, hybrids do not come true from seed. Whether you are dealing with corn or cannabis you are a prisoner of the intersection of biology and commerce. Hybrids offer better performance so seed companies develop hybrids. The price you as the grower pay is that you have to buy hybrid seeds from the seed company.
> 
> If you want vegetable plants that come true from seed there are innumerable commercial sources and you can always just save your own seed. I've been growing the same summer squash variety for almost 25 years and never purchases a single seed.
> 
> ...


U probably also work for Chiquita Bananas.


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