# $15,000 Mistake Learn from mine. Epic Fail!



## cannibus corps (Jan 25, 2010)

This is my first attempt at Hyro, I switched from soil because people said it was faster and easier. This is what I went with

2 4x4 ebb and flow tables with 2 40gl res.
AN 2 part A,B, carbo load, big bud, bud blood, sensi szym, and bud factor X

Now, ill start with the nutes prices, I spent around $800 for an 8 week flower nutes. So each res change will cost me around $90. I am fucking pissed about the bud blood. If anyone used this product will tell you its like adding cool aid dye to your nice white res. It stained everything. And when I added the carbo load the first time it clumped together like semen in hot water! This does not make for an easy res change. As you will see from the pics im not working with a lot of space. 
I followed AN nute chart found on the AN web site, moderate to heavy feeding chart. There is a lot of speculation on how to add and ideal water temperature, im still confused of what is ideal.

1st mistake was not PH balancing the Rockwool. I had 40 clones from 4 different strains which im transplanting from root riot cubs into the Rockwool. The clones have been under 24hrs of light for 60 days. Im not sure if they sat too long which may have weakened them please comment on this issue. But due to the clone height I was told I would only need to veg then for a week then put them right into flower. "I veg under a 400w MH light"
SO thats what I did. The first week called for 1000 ppm of nutes. I added the amounts indicated on the AN chart but my ppms were only 650, so I added more A and B to get the 1000ppm< Is this the correct way to bring up the ppms. 
Week one the plants blew up all is well! Im a pot rock star and then some start to show signs of stress in week 2 and im getting crazy ph imbalance everyday. From 5.5 to 6.8 in like 20 hrs. I then pulled water from a Rockwool cube and test it ph was like 7.2 and ppms were like 1300. So I ended up nute burning them in week 2. 
Then I come home to find out my lights never turned on all day due to a faulty power strip!!!!!! Not sure how bad this could have fucked them up so please comment. So now im in week for and you can see from the pics that they all look like hell so out of 40 5 are the most unbelievable plants I have ever seen. But they have stopped their vertical growth.

I was trying to revive the dying plants by using AN revive, and nothing helps I want to trash them but until the next batch is germinated im going to try to learn as much as possible so please comment so we all can learn from my stupid ass!

Now the pics i have posted also show the 5 plants that recieved all the same nutes and they are beautiful! This is were my confusion sets in. This loss had to be due to the clone process and how long they sat under 24hrs light, and not vegging them long enough prior to shocking them with the high level flower nutes. What do you guys think?


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## sagensour (Jan 25, 2010)

Wow. I seeeee. Thanks for the pictures. Im sure that at 1000ppm, that will fry your babies(like they did). 60 days in those small ass cubes will inhibit growth substantially. You wont get that back by the way. You should have put Grodan slabs under the cubes so the roots could expand and grow. AN is good shit. Almost not for rookies though. Y did AN nutes cost u 800? I did the math, seems like from what was listed for bloom nutes should of cost somewhere around 225 max. WTF thats alot of money for nutes. Alot of mistakes, however next time ull do much better, I hope. 15 G's weeeeewwww!


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## lemonjellow (Jan 25, 2010)

they look to have some sort of deficency , i would flush them with fresh water and try to correct the problem. i dont know what they need maybe nothing . sometimes certain nutes get locked out because of buildup of high amounts of other nutes. that is why i would just start with just a flush, giving them any thing else may just make it worse.


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## razoredge (Jan 25, 2010)

its no big deal man.. clean up and start again. thats the good thing about mary, she just wants some love and attention.


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## cannibus corps (Jan 25, 2010)

well the cost for the nutes were for 80 gallons changing every week. I flush every week with clearex. What do you guys think of ebb and flow flood timing. and i was told that the table mat was not needed. i was thinking the roots would get burned by the light. my grow shop told me this too. you would think they would want to sell me more. 

This is a pic of my last grow in soil. This is why soil is more forgiving.


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## MuntantLizzard (Jan 25, 2010)

Too much ppm! its okay though clones want 100-200ppm at a normal ph of 6 or 5.8 A light failing for a day isnt bad at all just try to keep an eye on em. clones will root in 12/12.


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## MuntantLizzard (Jan 25, 2010)

Ebb and flow is expensive!! hey can i get a loan?? lol. anyway i say try easier systems like Bubblebonics aka Deep water culture, its a bit more forgiving and you only ph your resivors


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## Hidden Dragon (Jan 25, 2010)

I'll never use those white plugs again. I just lost 71 out of 80 clones using that shit and clonex. Thought I'd try it. I'm going back to Grodan rockwool plugs and Olivia's which I always had good luck with.


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## james murphy (Jan 25, 2010)

i dont know where you live but your spent way too much on nutes!! for about 120 bucks you can get general hydoponics and superthrive.....you can actually use this with little to no ph problems..a bit of ph down is all you will need.oh and the person who said you can keep them in the cubes is well...wrong...i have grown monsterplants in no substrate at all...


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## james murphy (Jan 25, 2010)

heres a novel idea...try 5 dollar 20 gal. totes and vermiculite and perlite...2/3 perlite..1/3 vermiculite. you will save a ton of money and get amazing resuts....then as you learn move on to more complicated systems,,,


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## tom__420 (Jan 25, 2010)

Why are so many people saying that the nutes were too high? If the pH is adjusted correctly you won't see any burning
I run 1000+ ppms on clones that just rooted without any burn
It looks like your problem was cal/mag deficiency judging by this pic:


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## CAashtree (Jan 25, 2010)

ouch. a lot of people spend more than 15k on school and come out dumber than they were when they enrolled. i dont think youll have that problem. youll remember your mistakes on that deep down gut level and avoid them in the future. your next grow will no doubt run smoother than this one. situation sucks, but youll come back like a crimped main stem.


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## goofygolfer (Jan 25, 2010)

1. looks like your clones were taken from a mother that was well into flowering.clones taken late in flowering takes longer to root. 
2. you have no grow media.hydroton . ebb and flow use that.
. here's a tutorial on ebb and flow thhere's several parts to it . but remember this is just the basics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avipzVVmpL8


hope this helps


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## tom__420 (Jan 25, 2010)

You don't need to use hydroton in ebb and flow there bud, here is a grow where the user DubsFan used rockwool in an ebb and flow system.

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/266213-green-crack-2x1000w-4x8-tray-7.html







Hydroton isn't necessary in ebb and flow although it is probably the best medium to use for it


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## bigbuddc (Jan 25, 2010)

Dude it looks to me like your number one problem was root space 60 days in small cubes very bad. At the very least you should have put some hydroton or clay pellets in your system then placed the cubes into the pellets. That way your roots would have had space to grow.


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## tom__420 (Jan 25, 2010)

If the roots are getting watered and fed enough than the size has nothing to do with it
Having a small amount of medium only means that you will have to flood more often, not that your plants will look unhealthy


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## cannibus corps (Jan 25, 2010)

Thanks for the comments, However i am gettin amazing results from 5 of the plants. They are perfect not one sign of a problem. I think a lot of the issue was leaving them in the root riot cubes for too long and then nute burn. 5 plants loved it the other 35 did not. The price of the system was not an issue, the nutes to run them was. One 2.5 gallon jug of sensi zym was $235! And the big bud was like 270 for 2 jugs of it plus, Then the Bud Factor X is 2 x $90. Im running 2 40 gal res. Now if i had 40 plants like the 5 that are healthy this would be a $20k at legal caregive prices.


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## DubsFan (Jan 25, 2010)

tom__420 said:


> You don't need to use hydroton in ebb and flow there bud, here is a grow where the user DubsFan used rockwool in an ebb and flow system.
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/266213-green-crack-2x1000w-4x8-tray-7.html
> 
> ...



Thanks for the photo publicity there Tom. My grow didn't go perfectly but it wasn't because of my medium. Rockwool set ups like mine pretty reliable and easy to use. It appears like he has a lot of issues going on. Not just one thing.

1. Never pay retail. Sounds like you did. I'm not a grinder but hydro shops are on crack. I'm buying a hand crank trimmer. Cost is 375 and retail is 675! WTF. Got it for $500 out the door. 

2. Those plants look a little odd. That really long stem tells me they weren't the best clones to begin with. Clones should be stout little palm trees, not leggy wimpy things.

3. I know a few that feed heavy in the beginning...1000ppm+. But it's on strains they are very familiar with. My plants in that grow were buggin out over 850-900 until late flower. I'm still only up to 1100.

4. That claw or curling under leaf look is generally over watering. Over watering leads to what looks like nute burn but it's really just lack of nute uptake.

5. There is nothing wrong withe 4" cubes as long as you have something else for them to grow into after the roots shoot out the bottom. On the flip side my buddy just hit 2.25p's on his first ever grow using 6" cubes with roots laying in the fucking tray for weeks. So who knows.


I don't really understand how a plant can be 60 days old and be that small...then you grew it out as well. Many people in hydro have 2fters in 2 weeks. I think you got some crappy genetics, too many nutes and then you over fed and over watered.

Try watering 3x a day in Rockwool, 15min per watering. 

Only add your basic NPK nutes. No fancy shit. If you're using Reverse Osmosis like I am, I added a 50% dose of CalMag. If your nutes have any, litteraly any CalMag you may not need any CalMag at all. The nutrient industry is the biggest scammer of them all. Start with basic NPK on your next grow and with PPM's in the 300 or less range. Next week bump up to 400 and so on.

Good gear for sure but you need to read up a little on basic hydro.


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## IAm5toned (Jan 25, 2010)

cannibus corps said:


> One 2.5 gallon jug of sensi zym was $235! And the big bud was like 270 for 2 jugs of it plus, Then the Bud Factor X is 2 x $90. Im running 2 40 gal res. Now if i had 40 plants like the 5 that are healthy this would be a $20k at legal caregive prices.


I think they saw you coming from the parking lot....


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## Drr (Jan 25, 2010)

I'd say not Ph'ing those cubes fucked you.. coupled with the overdose...
the light off might have stressed them a bit but they should recover as long as the light cycle returns to normal.

if your run off from the cube was 7.2 from 5.5, this tells me your medium is over 7.2 more like 7.5-8 maybe higher at worst case 8.5-9

since the Ph of the blocks have to be higher then 7.2 to bring from 5.5. Feel me? thats how ph works in my mind..
I don't know for sure if its like a mirror exact opposite affect.. (ex, it raised by PH of 1.7 so your medium is 8.9.) But I would say its between 7.8-8.5

Does anyone know the starting PH of a rockwool??

Also if your nutes are more alkaline/casutic... it didn't help with the overdose...

it hurts me to see it also... but trial and error is the best learning tool there is..
Knowing is doing...


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## Drr (Jan 25, 2010)

Also noticed the bottom of the cubes are greeny... fugus?? another possible culprit and sign of over watering??


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## tom__420 (Jan 25, 2010)

Drr said:


> Also noticed the bottom of the cubes are greeny... fugus?? another possible culprit and sign of over watering??


no that is a sign that his tray isn't light proof from the top
If you have a wet area with nutrients and sunlight algae will grow, it is not a sign of overwatering


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## FileError404 (Jan 25, 2010)

The PH flux might have come from water temps. I try to keep my water below 68F at all times. 72F might be optimal for uptake but also increases the risk of root disease. If you have the res right under the lights, the temperature will fluctuate heavily day/night which will throw off your PH.


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## LionsRoor (Jan 25, 2010)

cannibus corps said:


> This is my first attempt at Hyro, I switched from soil because people said it was faster and easier. This is what I went with
> 
> 2 4x4 ebb and flow tables with 2 40gl res.
> AN 2 part A,B, carbo load, big bud, bud blood, sensi szym, and bud factor X


Your hardware setup is good, but you didn't setup the media well... You learned about PHing your rockwool for 24 hrs prior to use with 5.5 - 5.8 water. Once rooted in 4" cubes - you then need to give the roots something to grow into. Most commonly, for an ebb and flow, you would take your rooted 4" rockwool cube and place it on top of a pot filled with hydroton. Alternatives to this would be to use some type of slab, such as rockwool, or use a bigger rocwool cube, use a coco mat on the bottom of your tray - or my personal favorite would be to use a canna coco slab. Others have mentioned over watering, that is what I say too. If you insist on growing to term in 4" cubes you must provide better drainage. The trays have too many flat areas for such small cubes - water can still pool under a cube. A rocwool cube will wick water from what seems to be a dry tray. This excess water is oftem semi-evaporated nute water that is extremely saline. Use light crate in the bottom of your trays to avoid this problem. Again, hydroton or a standard 3m slab is the ebb and flow standard.

As with all methods, irrigation is of paramount importance - really the whole game after you get the basics in line. With ebb and flow, the variables are irrigation duration and frequency. Setting the height of your overflow is also important as that too will have a direct effect on overall moisture levels. Understand, this is a moving target throughout the grow cycle. Irrigation cycle times should be adjusted weekly at a minimum.




> Now, ill start with the nutes prices, I spent around $800 for an 8 week flower nutes. So each res change will cost me around $90. I am fucking pissed about the bud blood. If anyone used this product will tell you its like adding cool aid dye to your nice white res. It stained everything. And when I added the carbo load the first time it clumped together like semen in hot water! This does not make for an easy res change. As you will see from the pics im not working with a lot of space.





> I followed AN nute chart found on the AN web site, moderate to heavy feeding chart. There is a lot of speculation on how to add and ideal water temperature, im still confused of what is ideal.


You're not doing your math right - the $800 bucks of nutes will last longer than one harvest. The base nutes may run out - but you will not be able to go through the addatives. Be sure you are dosing correctly... In general, you want to nute your soup as follows:

Fill your res with RO.

Take note of starting PPM.

Add your addatives at half the manufacturers recommended strength - being sure not to have the total of all your addatives use more than 35% of your total desired final PPM strength.

Add your base nutrient (1, 2 or 3 part) to final desired PPM.

PH to 5.8 - 6.0

Example: Your starting RO is 50ppm. You want to make a nute soup of 1000ppm. Add your desired addatives at half strength, keeping the total to 367.5ppm or less (1000ppm + 50ppm * 35% = 367.5ppm). Next, add your base nutrient (part a, and b) to 1050ppm. (1000ppm + 50ppm)



> 1st mistake was not PH balancing the Rockwool. I had 40 clones from 4 different strains which im transplanting from root riot cubs into the Rockwool. The clones have been under 24hrs of light for 60 days.




As another mentioned, you are starting from heavily flowered plant material... this takes some major work to revert to veg. How rooted were they before you began your nutrient feeds? Plants should be well rooted before getting to 1000ppms. When dealing with clones - you can often jump right up to high ppms, dependent upon the feed level the mom enjoyed.



> Im not sure if they sat too long which may have weakened them please comment on this issue. But due to the clone height I was told I would only need to veg then for a week then put them right into flower. "I veg under a 400w MH light"





> SO thats what I did. The first week called for 1000 ppm of nutes. I added the amounts indicated on the AN chart but my ppms were only 650, so I added more A and B to get the 1000ppm< Is this the correct way to bring up the ppms.
> Week one the plants blew up all is well! Im a pot rock star and then some start to show signs of stress in week 2 and im getting crazy ph imbalance everyday. From 5.5 to 6.8 in like 20 hrs. I then pulled water from a Rockwool cube and test it ph was like 7.2 and ppms were like 1300. So I ended up nute burning them in week 2.
> Then I come home to find out my lights never turned on all day due to a faulty power strip!!!!!! Not sure how bad this could have fucked them up so please comment. So now im in week for and you can see from the pics that they all look like hell so out of 40 5 are the most unbelievable plants I have ever seen. But they have stopped their vertical growth.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this. Your post will certainly help more folks than you know!


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## horribleherk (Jan 25, 2010)

hey c-c im new at this too i did a bubbleponic grow that wasnt up to my expectations too much of this & too much of that now using g-h flora series nutes grow, micro & bloom nothing more just the main 3 & of course ph. down &ph. up g-h nutes seem to be the ''small block chevy'' of the nute world no matter what you may think of it people are having a high success rate . i use it because its user friendly & simple i fight back the urge to buy something fancy every time i go to the store & i know i'll set myself up for failure with all those fancy additives so i'm gonna roll with what ive got [which so far is cool] & i think if i run into a problem hopefully it will be simple & easy to isolate & yeah i'll probably have me a little fuck up somewhere down the line it aint the end of the world best of luck to you h.h.


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## squarepush3r (Jan 25, 2010)

dont be so hard on yourself man, everyone makes mistakes. get up and learn!


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## chief greenleaf (Jan 26, 2010)

Drr said:


> I'd say not Ph'ing those cubes fucked you.. coupled with the overdose...
> the light off might have stressed them a bit but they should recover as long as the light cycle returns to normal.
> 
> if your run off from the cube was 7.2 from 5.5, this tells me your medium is over 7.2 more like 7.5-8 maybe higher at worst case 8.5-9
> ...


Drr Im glad somebody finally said it, Ive been reading thru this thread like all these problems are nothing compared to the fact that your medium has a PH of 9+! I also agree that the genetics seem poor, Ive had Some rooted clones in little rockwool starter plugs for like 10 days now and theyve tripled in size! If I left em in there for 60 days regardless of the medium theyd be tall as hell, they probably look like shit and not have much foliage but they def wouldnt have stayed so small!
Cannibus Im far from a hydro pro as you know (HA! I made a rhyme!) but I know for a fact that at a PH of 8-9 or higher your nutrient uptake is pretty much gonna be non existent. Yea there mighta been a few other small probs but if your girls cant get any nutes they aint gon give ya any fruits!
I dont know how far into flower you are but if you can find a way to adjust the ph of your rockwool Im sure your girls will start ta look way better pretty quick. You wont be able ta get anywhere near as good of a harvest as you couldve but if you can fix that ph you should be able ta pull off somethin ya know.
Oh yea I was wonderin when you say you took a 15 grand lost did you mean you had 15K invested in your set up or that your crop woulda been woth 15K if everything hadve gone right???


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## Drr (Jan 26, 2010)

tom__420 said:


> no that is a sign that his tray isn't light proof from the top
> If you have a wet area with nutrients and sunlight algae will grow, it is not a sign of overwatering



makes sense..

I had a bit starting on my small cubes.. had to trim the top of them a bit..
I figured it was water, food, light = algea.. but i also figured I was over watering was causing the algea.. (too much standing water in the cube)

which in my case I guess it would be more so, since the tops were saturated.. (I was hand watering from the top... I read you should let the tops stay almost dry???) and his being at the bottom you can't really get away from the standing water.. going to be atleast some.. a nice thin layer of clay pellets would do nicely to prevent that correct???
just for my future knowledge..


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## Drr (Jan 26, 2010)

chief greenleaf said:


> Drr Im glad somebody finally said it, Ive been reading thru this thread like all these problems are nothing compared to the fact that your medium has a PH of 9+! I also agree that the genetics seem poor, Ive had Some rooted clones in little rockwool starter plugs for like 10 days now and theyve tripled in size! If I left em in there for 60 days regardless of the medium theyd be tall as hell, they probably look like shit and not have much foliage but they def wouldnt have stayed so small!
> Cannibus Im far from a hydro pro as you know (HA! I made a rhyme!) but I know for a fact that at a PH of 8-9 or higher your nutrient uptake is pretty much gonna be non existent. Yea there mighta been a few other small probs but if your girls cant get any nutes they aint gon give ya any fruits!
> I dont know how far into flower you are but if you can find a way to adjust the ph of your rockwool Im sure your girls will start ta look way better pretty quick. You wont be able ta get anywhere near as good of a harvest as you couldve but if you can fix that ph you should be able ta pull off somethin ya know.
> *Oh yea I was wonderin when you say you took a 15 grand lost did you mean you had 15K invested in your set up or that your crop woulda been woth 15K if everything hadve gone right???*



I would also wondering the same thing?? 15 invested or the crop woulda been worth 15 g?


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## chief greenleaf (Jan 26, 2010)

LionsRoor said:


> Your hardware setup is good, but you didn't setup the media well... You learned about PHing your rockwool for 24 hrs prior to use with 5.5 - 5.8 water. Once rooted in 4" cubes - you then need to give the roots something to grow into. Most commonly, for an ebb and flow, you would take your rooted 4" rockwool cube and place it on top of a pot filled with hydroton. Alternatives to this would be to use some type of slab, such as rockwool, or use a bigger rocwool cube, use a coco mat on the bottom of your tray - or my personal favorite would be to use a canna coco slab. Others have mentioned over watering, that is what I say too. If you insist on growing to term in 4" cubes you must provide better drainage. The trays have too many flat areas for such small cubes - water can still pool under a cube. A rocwool cube will wick water from what seems to be a dry tray. This excess water is oftem semi-evaporated nute water that is extremely saline. Use light crate in the bottom of your trays to avoid this problem. Again, hydroton or a standard 3m slab is the ebb and flow standard.


 Yo LionsRoar can you tell me what "light crate" is? Im switchin over to hydro for the first time and Im tryin ta get familiar with good shit ta use in my flood table ya know.
Im gonna be runnin 4 inch cubes too man, what you think is the best thing ta use under em? Im lookin at either a coco mat with hydroton under it or just the mat by itself, or the coco slabs your talkin about sound good too. Im just tryin ta stay away from RW slabs, they seem ta hold way too much water and I love coco great water to air ratio.
Sorry Cannibus not tryin ta take over ur thread just cant PM yet! Hope ya dont mind.


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## cannibus corps (Jan 26, 2010)

The 15k loss is from lost product. I am a caregiver co-op. I have been enjoying much success with my soil grows and producing great plants. I was talked into running a cycle in hydro because of its rapid growth and suppose to cut down on the vegging time table by using SOG method. Mainly I was told that hydro is easier than soil. Bullshit I say, soil is much easier! Much more forgiving. The one thing many people over look through out this thread was the 5 plants that are doing amazing! All got the same treatment why did the 5 blow up. Its Master Kush. Yeah I think I did get a little ripped on the nutes. If used properly those nutes would have been their weight in gold tho. The problem is that I learned to grow from talking to you assholes


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## Drr (Jan 27, 2010)

My master kush are nute hogs.. so maybe it was an over dose???

that does throw off the PH theory a bit.. unless master kush love alkiline soil.. or those cubes were different?? you didn't do anything different to those cubes??

only master kush thrived?? were they along the edge??

What was the other strain(s)??


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## Ole Budheavy (Jan 27, 2010)

So whats up for your next grow? Are you gonna try hydro again with the same setup or try pots with hydroton? Maybe you don't have to change the res every week. Another big concern is how do you keep those reservoirs cool? If I was gonna do hydro, I'd read that hydro sticky and also monitor the EC, PPM, PH, and maybe even TDS.


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## Dr. VonDank (Jan 27, 2010)

Sorry to hear that. Hope your next runs makes up for it. Different methods take time to dial in. I always do testing on small scales before big runs just to make sure all the kinks are worked out. I would have the person(s) that talked you into the set-up do a walk-throu with you before the next round. As someone said in a previous post start with a lower nute concentration and work your way up slowly. Best of luck in your next run--I hope those trays are full of massive sticky dank!!!... VonDank


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## jeebuscheebus (Jan 27, 2010)

cannibus corps said:


> The problem is that I learned to grow from talking to you assholes


Where did this come from? 

You clearly have made several mistakes with this grow. The small grow medium and not ph'ing your rockwool were total rookie mistakes. 
Man up and take responsibility.

From the replies in this thread, I would say these assholes are showing how to grow after YOU messed up.


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## tom__420 (Jan 27, 2010)

Small amounts of grow medium is not a rookie mistake, root space does not matter when growing hydroponically
You just have to flood more often in this case, I have seen plenty of growers have the same type setup and it worked great


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## dr.skunkfunk (Jan 27, 2010)

lets have a look .....I will answer what i can point by piont

you wrote...

2 4x4 ebb and flow tables with 2 40gl res. answer ........ excellent me too except have 8 4x4
AN 2 part A,B, carbo load, big bud, bud blood, sensi szym, and bud factor X answer ........ good nutrients 

Now, ill start with the nutes prices, I spent around $800 for an 8 week flower nutes. answer .........thats insane , your spending way too much here .I use cutting edge solutions .......just the 3 step basic line.... micro grow and bloom up rest will cause nutrient lock out and do exactly what has happened to you... everyone is trying to sell you shit you dont need..... MORE in hydro is not better... start with the basic line up of whatver then add your improvements as a test and then build up to where you wanna be ......my nutrient line up is this.

cutting edge solutions ..micro grow and bloom. molasses from earth juice liquid karma SPECIAL additive gravity purple maxx bushmaster .. CAUTION these three shits are dangerous to your crop use very little and use no nutrents for the days you add these thriple troubles .. but results are insane ...if you fuck it up and follow there exact directions frybaby for sure ... tust me on this one .. better skip it if your a thickheaded ass. 

here it is start to finish.

change res every2 weeks 
ph 5.5- 6. 2 leave it the fuck alone if its in this range.
res temp 68-70 ish.
3 cfi bulbs in homemade rig over ez cloner 
2 t5 8 bulb lights fixtures on veg and rooted clones 
1000 hps on movers over each 4x8 area 
suplemented with 16 cfi on rails along light mover over each 4x8 area

clones in a ez cloner plain water 2 weeks
use hydro guard in everything..except ez cloner all the way to flush except the gravity purple maxx bushmaster 3 stress days 
rotted clones in table 1. 200ppm 2 weeks 
babies in tables 2. 1000 ppm 2weeks 
flower in bud tables 3-8 1200 ppm 4-weeks 
move light as high as possible or turn off then gravity purple maxx bush master lowest strength on label for 3 days with nothing but frsh water.then flush .. turn light back 
flower last 3 weeks back to normal nutrents 1200 ppm 
clerex last 5 days .
then flush with water .
last 24 hours turn off all water and lights

harvest..

cost ... 

cutting edge is cheap like 20 -25 bucks for each micro grow and bloom... last for about 4 water/res changes or more so 75 bucks or so for 2 months 
earth juice molasses is 20 bucks for a gallon a double shot glass treats a 70 gallon res. 20 bucks for a six months

budswell cheap 25 bucks laqst a long time ..

gravity is expensive 35 bucks but you only use a little bit so it last for 6 months 
purple maxx is real expensive 80 bucks but again only the least bit used last 6 months 
bush master again real expensive 30 bucks last 6 months 

hydro guard in everything 

so my whole cost starting with nothing is 300 but it last for several months ....

i hardly ever have to buy the additives like twice a year .
i buy the main nutrients like every 2- 3 months ..

moving on 

So each res change will cost me around $90. I am fucking pissed about the bud blood. If anyone used this product will tell you its like adding cool aid dye to your nice white res. It stained everything. And when I added the carbo load the first time it clumped together like semen in hot water! This does not make for an easy res change. As you will see from the pics im not working with a lot of space. 

answer.......... 1. cut your cost on nutrients 2.stop changing res every week ..every 2 weeks is better because it gives a change for beneficial bacteria to take hold.. 
answer ... bud blood stains...... everything is going to stain your shit thats just the way it is dont worry about that ..... when you change your res... dont scrub it down just drain it flush it and refill it...you want that benifical slim to grow not over grow but grow.... its gonna get a little grimmy and thats a good thing....only sterilize it if you have problems or something but if things are going good.. leave it alone .... maybe a good break down and though clean twice a year if you must..
answer............. when i first started doing hydro i tried carbo load and opted for earth juice molasses for carbs instead .... cheap and better. 

DONT LOVE IT TO DEATH!!!!!



I followed AN nute chart found on the AN web site, moderate to heavy feeding chart. There is a lot of speculation on how to add and ideal water temperature, im still confused of what is ideal.


answer...... scrap those nutrients if you are confused.... check out cutting edge you will thank me.. then just use the three micro grow and bloom follow the instructions on the bottle ..then add molasses bud swell and liquid karma to get your ppm exactly where you want them ..forget about their other shit it will fuck up marijuana... trust me 

1st mistake was not PH balancing the Rockwool. I had 40 clones from 4 different strains which im transplanting from root riot cubs into the Rockwool. The clones have been under 24hrs of light for 60 days. Im not sure if they sat too long which may have weakened them please comment on this issue. But due to the clone height I was told I would only need to veg then for a week then put them right into flower. "I veg under a 400w MH light"


answer .....I HATE ROCKWOOL.. i use hydroton .... its easy to use you cant fuck it up and you can reuse it with a simple washing its good as new so you never have to buy it again ....but too each their own 

SO thats what I did. The first week called for 1000 ppm of nutes. I added the amounts indicated on the AN chart but my ppms were only 650, so I added more A and B to get the 1000ppm< Is this the correct way to bring up the ppms. 

answer ...... NO .. if you add certain nutrients out of order you will cause nutrient lock out...this one is tough because you have to account for the parts per million of your water and a multitude of other factors ..AND did ya make a measuring mistake .. measuring mistake is a critical fuck up... if my ppms are way off i just start over ... and pay closer attention .. to bring up ppm if its in range use other goodies like molasses and budswell and liquid karma ... you know stuff that will not fry you plants..

to find the way to get ppm for your water take a gallon of the water you use and mix up a test gallon and record your results .. then adjust up or down according to your waters needs ..record the ammounts it took to get your water to the proper ppm and that is the ml per gallon your water needs to get in range...it waste a few ml of nutrents but then you know....leave 200 ppms off to add goodies like molasses budswell and whatever else they sell ya..lol..
or you can fuck around with complicated math ratios and hopefully not fuckit up....

how is ypour water???

my water is well water so i filter it through a tall boy andkeep a close check on the ppms of my plain water .... my water runs at 250ppm filtered so i have to correct for this...or get nutrent lock out .. 


Week one the plants blew up all is well! Im a pot rock star and then some start to show signs of stress in week 2 and im getting crazy ph imbalance everyday. From 5.5 to 6.8 in like 20 hrs. I then pulled water from a Rockwool cube and test it ph was like 7.2 and ppms were like 1300. So I ended up nute burning them in week 2. 


answer .... classic example of nutrient lock up..


Then I come home to find out my lights never turned on all day due to a faulty power strip!!!!!! Not sure how bad this could have fucked them up so please comment. So now im in week for and you can see from the pics that they all look like hell so out of 40 5 are the most unbelievable plants I have ever seen. But they have stopped their vertical growth.


answer the light stay off is no big deal for 1 day forget about it..first 2-4 weeks or so is called the streach where they get taller then they stop or slow way down and start to really fill out and pout on wieght... one week of flowering then stop you probably have nutrient lock up and have shocked the plants ..stunted ..they may recover but they will never be as good as they could have been..


I was trying to revive the dying plants by using AN revive, and nothing helps I want to trash them but until the next batch is germinated im going to try to learn as much as possible so please comment so we all can learn from my stupid ass!

NOT a bad idea but stop spending so much on them .. but get this grow behind you and learn form it 

Now the pics i have posted also show the 5 plants that recieved all the same nutes and they are beautiful! This is were my confusion sets in. This loss had to be due to the clone process and how long they sat under 24hrs light, and not vegging them long enough prior to shocking them with the high level flower nutes. What do you guys think? 

Answer....... NO each strain takes different nutrient stress and tolerate fuck ups differently .... thats why growing is so tricky.. what works for one strain will fry another...thats why ts best to have one or two strains in a system and twick that system to that strain..


anyway good luck and i hope any of this helps you










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## dr.skunkfunk (Jan 27, 2010)

I was taking a close look at your set up if you have only a forty gallon res and are trying to fill up 2 tables at the same time ...that is a mistake as well .. with that small res. you will have to alternate pumps so one table fill then drains before the other table floods..or your not going to get the depth you want in your flood ..

there is no way you have put 800 through a forty gallon res... in a month..
youi are for sure doing something way wrong .. or someone is raping you at the hydro store ..in a forty gallon res ... you are gonna use like 1000 -1500 ml of nutrients in 40 gallons of water every res change max... 

your plant pics look like a classic example of nutrient stress..

flush them with clearex start over on your res .. 

get a reading of your water if its high adjust your nutrient ppm like i explained earlier if not .. check all your measuring skills and all that..

mix on the lowest nutrient level high to aggressive charts are trouble ... mix it weak then slowly build up each res change until you find what works for you..

also when you ad shit loads up or down that will cause nutrient lock out as well...

if your using phosphoric acid by advanced as a ph down .....well you dumping phosphoric acid in you water which is a nutrient in itself. or citric acid.. the huge fluctuations are a problem and also a indication you have nutrient lock out developing or in full swing..

I ph my water then let that stabilize then add nutrients.... most nutrients are ph stable so i have very litle issues with ph after that .. then i top off in one week and ph again then the next week drian and flush and start all over .. very consistant very effective 1.5 -2 lb plus each light every time


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## cannibus corps (Jan 28, 2010)

Wow great post's everyone. Some of you should read and try to comprehend what im saying before you react. The title of the post was learning from my mistake. This was a post describing hydro rookie mistakes. There are many different ways to grow and many different opinions on how to, what nutrients ect. I had nute burn, not because my ppms were too high but because of ph imbalance and poor root development. Prior to transplanting the clones were already stressed and were being stored improperly. I love soil grows but hydro is a little more challenging and is fun, next is areoponics. I&#8217;m gonna try all methods. 

For my next grow I am running 20 plants in hydro and 20 in soil. I&#8217;m going to use sure to grow 4.75x4.50 inserts and yes AN. Strains are AK48, aurora, papaya. They are germinating now. and ill be sure to post any mistakes!


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## Drr (Jan 29, 2010)

Do you have a journal??


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## tea tree (Jan 30, 2010)

whoa, you flushed every week with cleares? In rockwool? I would say that was your prob, or to any one doing that, there is a place to improve. I am pretty sure that clearex is supposed to be used max twice, and I would say once in rockwool, at the end. It stops the plant from uptaking nutes. So it needs some time to start again. A week is not enough. Plus rockwool should never be flushed. It really messes with the balance in the cube. Once in a while pour some nutes over the top to get rid of some salts maybe if you think you need to. Clearex at the end so the plant can eat it its leaves. Just some advice.


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## ganjaluvr (Jan 30, 2010)

I understand.


But hell, I use soil for all my growing. I too have thought about trying Hydro growing.

Only.. if I decide to actually try to use Hydro setup.. my plan is to start out with a simple setup.. instead of doing what you did which you pretty much just jumped into the whole Hydro method full blast.

If I were you.. I would have started out with a simple little Hydro setup instead of going all out on something that I (You) know little to nothing about. Ya dig?

I'm not hating on you.. or talking down to you.. im just saying that when I go into something new.. I ALWAYS start out with the simple setup.. and work my way up from there as I learn more about the method.

Good luck to ya though dude.. OH! also,

that plant doesn't look all that bad bro. You said you made a mistake somewhere or something.. but I'm failing to see the mistake. Looks like a healthy little lady to me.

I'm out. Peace dude and best of luck to ya's.


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## HGD (Mar 12, 2010)

Firstly ebb and flow is an easy system.

It is hard to analyze what your problem is as there are so many factors that can cause the problems you experienced. They look stressed and lots of factors can stress them out. So here are some general ebb and flow ideas.

First soil and hydro PH are not the same. 5.8 is good for hydro. Soil is higher. 

Since you have done soil in the past I assume your venting is fine and heat is not an issue....or is it? What about the distance from the light to the plants, too close? Air flow okay?

I run 3x3 trays with each having a 40 gal rez. I currently use 6inch rockwool cubes but have, in the past, used the 4 inchers. I'm going back to the four inchers in order to better control the PH hike. Normally I put the rockwool cubes into a basket with hydroton, however I have had successful grows with just using cubes and nothing else. The 4 inch cubes I completely cover with hydroton in a 9 inch basket after I remove the white plastic, the 6inch cubed I cut the bottom half of the plastic off the cubes and fill to that line with hydroton which live in 11 inch baskets. So with that said I don't think your problem was the cubes. I need to mention that all my grows; the cubes go into the baskets when I go to the bloom room from the grow room. So when they are in grow they are just in the cubes alone.

although I generally try to avoid it, I do at times top feed my new ladies for a day or two when the come out of the cloner.

I don't know what your starting PPM is but if it is high like mine you can have problems with PH hikes and nute lock out. Check it daily. Look into some sort of filtration system if this is your problem. H2O is the starting point it should be good.

Tell me about your light? When I was a new grower I did my grow and bloom in the same tray with the same light. Now I do not. However, when I did I found that going from cloner strength light to 600watt or 1000watt light was just too much for the little ladies. I used a filter (such as growing fabric with additional holes cut into it) to hang in between the light and the plants until they got strong enough to handle the full light. Usually 4-7 days. So watch your distance. They also make a light separators which I now use. However the jury is still out on those things.

I flood my tables 3 times only when the lights are on for 20 min. And I do not flood 4 hours before the lights go out to help control humidity.

I have run multi strains on one tray but I do not recommend it as different strains require different nute strengths. 1 strain per tray is more control imho.

I use GH products, add your Micro first in your full rez of H2O order to prevent lock out. Stir well as you add each. They also make a hard water Micro.

Clearex once per grow cycle as mentioned. 2 at most.

Clean your rez weekly with the nute change.

The plants look tall and gangly so I would guess they were cut from a mother that is under a florescent light. Take smaller clones or put her under a stronger light to make her more compact and strong looking. A healthy beginning is a good start.


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## snowblind (Mar 14, 2010)

What is the conversion factor of your meter .5 or .7?


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## i81two (Mar 14, 2010)

Drr said:


> I'd say not Ph'ing those cubes fucked you.. coupled with the overdose...
> the light off might have stressed them a bit but they should recover as long as the light cycle returns to normal.
> 
> if your run off from the cube was 7.2 from 5.5, this tells me your medium is over 7.2 more like 7.5-8 maybe higher at worst case 8.5-9
> ...


 
When my clones go from cloner to 2x2 cube of rockwool, i just dunk the cube in my veg rez untill saturated. Shit man that ppm is like 1250 and they dont even flinch. PH is the key. I bust my balls to keep a 5.8 +- .1-.2


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## Someguy15 (Mar 14, 2010)

Rockwool is a picky bitch in my experience... if you can't water for 2-3 days because of over watering (common in rockwool) the ph quickly starts to rise to unacceptable level in a few days. Then your stuck, do I A) water to correct ph, at the cost of oxygen deprivation, droop, ect. or b) wait to water, while the ph continues to climb quickly to 8. In my experience it took about 3 days to climb from 5.8 to 8 and I was using a rez ph of 5.5 to help compensate. Basically, it was a huge headache that I avoided this round by changing up mediums. Love my new mix of 50% hydroton 50% rockwool mini-cubes, but others love coco, pure hydroton ect. Maybe rockwool just isn't for you. 

Oh, and 1/10th of the scale would have been a good starting point. $1500 wasted is more tolerable no?


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## i81two (Mar 15, 2010)

My RW goes strait to a basket with hydroton in it and recieves the same water that all my other veg plants get. I am on a drip by the way.


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