# Why God?... Why?



## jfgordon1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Last night my buddies 16 year old sister passed away in a car crash. If there is a God... why would he do this? She had so much to live for. Beautiful, smart, fun... 

Is God evil ?

How do people make excuses for "God"? "God has a plan"


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## morgentaler (Oct 9, 2009)

Sorry for your loss.


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## Stoney McFried (Oct 9, 2009)

That's sad, man, my condolences.Bad shit happens.We all want to believe it's all part of a bigger plan,that its not all in vain.


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## whiterhyno420 (Oct 9, 2009)

look man my condolences go out to u man but u souldnt question god man.

wen its ur time then thats it its ur time


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## whiterhyno420 (Oct 9, 2009)

i have alot of my home boy that didnt get to make it to see 7th 8th and 9th grade man they were all good ppl they did some shit but they had good hearts man


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## Stoney McFried (Oct 9, 2009)

You question whatever you want,man.Because if there was a god,then he certainly hasn't proven himself to be very benevolent.Never stop questioning.


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## whiterhyno420 (Oct 9, 2009)

listen to this. it might not have to do with ur loss but ull see it happens to the best of them 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrwediXu2cQ


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

It's all part of the plan.


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## lemonjellow (Oct 9, 2009)

very sorry to here about your buddies sister man. it really sux when shit like this happens . my brother made it to 30 ,last st patties day he got up went to work only to have a tractor he was driving tip over on him. gone before anyone knew it . i only hope everyone that knew her can have a well heart , someday , some sooner than others .


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## DSB65 (Oct 9, 2009)

Thats a tuff one.but you see it all the time on the news and what about all the young guys dieing in the war it really makes you wonder about god i get were i feel like you about god peace dude


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## jfgordon1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks guys.. i appreciate it.

However, now that i think about it.. i shouldn't have started this thread. I'm not trying to get sympathy. I was trying to start a discussion about "why bad things happen" if there is a god (i'm an atheist/agnostic). This was a bad way going about it...

You're right stoney.. question everything.


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## jfgordon1 (Oct 9, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> It's all part of the plan.


What plan?

I don't think you really mean that...


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## DiggityDank4me (Oct 9, 2009)

Yo sun...yeah there is a god or our faint idea of it look outside ur window the fact there is life at all outstanding cuz no 1 knows how the hell the universe got made think about the gift of life and how ur lucky 2 just be alive and how fragile the human body is evan 2 live and die young is better than not 2 of lived at all


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## DiggityDank4me (Oct 9, 2009)

everyday is a gift not a privlige....you feel me?


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## cammelspit (Oct 9, 2009)

"I am" does not really put a specific hand in on the day to day of our little puny insignificant lives. I know it doesnt make it any easier but life sucks and then you die. The universe is chaos.

I am sorry for your loss my friend, be strong.


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## aknight3 (Oct 9, 2009)

if god was what he was described such terrible things would not happen, god is a perception, god is love thats it, theres no god person, sorry about this dude i will think about this for awhile now... i hope you will be okay


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## morgentaler (Oct 9, 2009)

jfgordon1 said:


> I was trying to start a discussion about "why bad things happen" if there is a god (i'm an atheist/agnostic). This was a bad way going about it...


Oh, you wanker.  And here I was being civil. Enough with that then.

Let's get right to the point shall we. Suppose that God did create the Universe. And suppose that he also created the devil.

What allows Christians to differentiate the word of God from that of the Devil?

In the oft-cited "proof for the existence of God", the questions are usually "Where did the Universe come from?", and the lack of a solid answer is seen as proof. But, as said above, supposing that God did create the Universe, what proof is there that he stuck around?

The bible is full of the actions of a tyrannical, vengeful, and petty god. Not a loving god sold to you in a pretty wrapper, but a god of murder, rape, genocide, torture, and intolerance. A parasitic god that demands worship, if for no other reason that to feed its existence (or its clergy).

If God had moved on to other projects after creating the Universe, and the devil stepped in to assume his identity, how exactly would one identify 'the father of lies'.

In Mark 7:8-13, Jesus advocates the Old Testament punishment of murder for children who speak back to their parents. Is this the word of a forgiving savior?

And Revelation is like a party in your mouth, except everyone is being horribly tortured and drowned in blood, so you end up drooling on yourself a little and ruining your favorite sweater.

The bible itself is better evidence (to use the word in the loose manner of the religious) for the abdication of a benevolent god than it is for the reign of one. And the devil, as portrayed, seems like the kind of fellow to introduce himself early on (you know, that whole freakshow in the garden), breaking the fourth wall by writing himself into the story.

And the thing about stories where the author has written himself into them... they're usually poorly done and hard to swallow.

Just like Religion. (and clerical wang)


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

jfgordon1 said:


> What plan?
> 
> I don't think you really mean that...



Awww, c'mon now... you know me. That was totally acid sarcasm....

Part of the plan oooOOOOoooo


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## morgentaler (Oct 9, 2009)

whiterhyno420 said:


> u souldnt question god man.


Why?

I'll be waiting right here for a good answer.


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## FireOwl (Oct 9, 2009)

Sorry for your loss, man. Very similar thing happened to a friend of mine, he lost his little sister. Things are just like that sometimes, and since we know nothing about death, we're scared, saddened and depressed. It's natural. I wouldn't worry though. Just because we don't understand death doesn't mean it isn't natural. It's as natural as living, we just can't comprehend it. Crazy idea, when you think about it.

What surprises me so much is that people really think we can know about our idea of god, death, an afterlife and such. The whole thing is, god is an abstract human idea, conjured by our brains, and whether or not it's true we simply cannot know. Maybe we'll find a way to get into this kind of stuff some day, but right now, nobody can know whether or not there is a god, gods, or anything like that which is beyond our perception. Not much point in trying to apply logic to this one, in my opinion. If you want to believe stuff, by all means do, since belief is the whole point. 

I don't really subscribe to any particular theory. Some make much more sense than others, as some people think some pretty hairbrained stuff, but within the bounds of reason, no one person's beliefs are any more or less valid than anyone else's. I'm basically in a state of curiosity about where we come from, where we go, what happens to us, and so forth. I'm curious and open, but largely it's stuff we can't really know, so there's not much point beating ourselves up about it. You have to wonder if some of this will be more apparent once we die, but I kind of think not. It makes sense to me that we'd be recycled in some way. If energy cannot be created or destroyed but rather exists always in some form or other in the same quantities as always... if matter can't be created or destroyed, but always exists in some form somewhere.. it would only be a logical progression of thought to assume our "life energy" or "souls," or however we put it, are in some way reused in different forms. But yeah, I know, I said no point in using logic, and I'll hold to it since we can't really know what's up with the world. Makes life kind of interesting, and it really pisses me off at people who go kill other people because they think their opinions are more legitimate.


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## morgentaler (Oct 9, 2009)

FireOwl said:


> Some make much more sense than others, as some people think some pretty hairbrained stuff, but within the bounds of reason, no one person's beliefs are any more or less valid than anyone else's.


'The bound of reason' creates a fairly narrow criteria, which excludes dogmatic faith and religion.

People laughed at the Raelians for believing aliens were coming to take them to the afterlife.

Yet their belief system was no more unreasonable than Christianity, Islam, Hindu, and any other religion.


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## GrowTech (Oct 9, 2009)

If there is a god... he has nothing to do with a person passing away, or war, or violence, or crime, or greed. IF god as we generally believe him to be is real, he lets us do what we need to do, and deals with us later.


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## whiterhyno420 (Oct 10, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Why?
> 
> I'll be waiting right here for a good answer.


if u went to church and read the bible u would kno. just sayin the one that believe should kno.

ima strong believer so i kno and im not a paster so i wont preach


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## morgentaler (Oct 10, 2009)

whiterhyno420 said:


> if u went to church and read the bible u would kno. just sayin the one that believe should kno.
> 
> ima strong believer so i kno and im not a paster so i wont preach


I have read your bible, and I have been to churches of several different faiths.

You already did preach, with your original statement.

Your response only shows that you don't have a good reason for why. You've fallen back on "Because the bible says so."

Try again.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 11, 2009)

The book is true because the book says so.....


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## Mcgician (Oct 11, 2009)

jfgordon1 said:


> Thanks guys.. i appreciate it.
> 
> However, now that i think about it.. i shouldn't have started this thread. I'm not trying to get sympathy. I was trying to start a discussion about "why bad things happen" if there is a god (i'm an atheist/agnostic). This was a bad way going about it...


This question is the hardest to answer to young children in my experience, as they have a lot of difficulty understanding the scope of things in a larger picture, and often lack the language in order to understand in the first place. IMO, bad things happen because this world is not heaven. The world is still a battlezone for souls, in a fight between good and evil, yin and yang, or whatever natural balance you may/may not believe in. I'm a believer in the afterlife, that we all have a soul, and there is more to life than our simplisitic animalian existence. Asking me for proof of this is ridiculous, and precisely why God made BELIEF a part of faith in the first place. If it was provable through means of science or other methods, what would be the point of it? 


*Faith*

*From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*


Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Faith (disambiguation).
*Faith* is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.[1][2] The word "faith" can refer to a religion itself or to religion in general. As with "trust", faith involves a concept of future events or outcomes, and is used conversely for a belief "not resting on logical proof or material evidence."[3][4] Informal usage of the word "faith" can be quite broad, and may be used in place of "trust" or "belief."
Faith is often used in a religious context, as in theology, where it almost universally refers to a trusting belief in a transcendent reality, or else in a Supreme Being and/or this being's role in the order of transcendent, spiritual things.
Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true.[5] It is the belief and the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, based on his or her authority and truthfulness.[6]

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IMO, faith is absolutely essential when it comes to matters of heaven/hell. The world will try to convince you through things like what happened to your friend that there is no God. DO NOT fall into this trap! I can't shrink the cosmos, the laws of physics, nature or history, or God's consciousness, and don't even want to try, but believe me, your friend is on God's side up there kicking ass and taking names against the evil in/out of this world now. Who knows? All I know is, don't ever try to second guess the man upstairs. With such a beautiful world, intelligent beings, and the sheer astronomical impossibility of the chance of life occuring the way it did, the evidence is already before you. Your friend is not dead! Your friend lives on in your heart, mind, soul, and in a different state of being. Be at peace my friend, and I am very sorry for your loss.


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## Nocturn3 (Oct 11, 2009)

Mcgician said:


> This question is the hardest to answer to young children in my experience, as they have a lot of difficulty understanding the scope of things in a larger picture, and often lack the language in order to understand in the first place. IMO, bad things happen because this world is not heaven. The world is still a battlezone for souls, in a fight between good and evil, yin and yang, or whatever natural balance you may/may not believe in. I'm a believer in the afterlife, that we all have a soul, and there is more to life than our simplisitic animalian existence. Asking me for proof of this is ridiculous, and precisely why God made BELIEF a part of faith in the first place. If it was provable through means of science or other methods, what would be the point of it?


If the world is a battleground for souls, then the point of proof would be obvious. If your god really loved humanity, then he would provide proof, so more people would know which side to take. By not doing so, he is condemning them to eternal torture, or whatever bullshit your book says happens to unbelievers, when he could have saved them by simply showing a sign. He used to do that kind of thing regularly, according to your book. Why not now?

To the OP. Sorry for your loss. It is unfortunate that shit like this happens, but that is the nature of the universe. Random as fuck, imperfect and chaotic. One day we might have the technology to overcome death, but we need to drop all the superstition and hate first, and focus on advancing ourselves as a species.


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## Mcgician (Oct 11, 2009)

Nocturn3 said:


> If the world is a battleground for souls, then the point of proof would be obvious. If your god really loved humanity, then he would provide proof, so more people would know which side to take. By not doing so, he is condemning them to eternal torture, or whatever bullshit your book says happens to unbelievers, when he could have saved them by simply showing a sign. He used to do that kind of thing regularly, according to your book. Why not now?


Miracles still happen. Perhaps it's your unbelief that they are that keeps you from seeing them? Just a thought.


As far as proof, it's all around me, like I mentioned in my previous post.


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## morgentaler (Oct 11, 2009)

What do you consider a miracle? 

Some people consider it a miracle when a person with diagnosed cancer heals naturally. But the body deals with cancer cells every day, and manages to successfully get rid of them. Statistically, you can expect some people to be ravaged by cancer at a faster rate than others while some will have a delayed but strong immune response that is finally able to overcome the cellular defect.

I've seen it called a miracle when a person survives a horrific plane crash where many people die. I remember one instance where a survivor being interviewed on the news stated that god had heard their prayers and spared them because he had a plan. In the background people were still looking through the wreckage for body parts. Is it a miracle that the interviewee survived? What about the other people who were killed that prayed to survive?

Why is there no recorded instance of an amputee miraculously regenerating a severed limb? If we hear anecdotal evidence of "God cured my cancer/arthritis/homosexuality", which are all internally manifesting symptoms, where are the anecdotes for limb or eye regeneration?

Surely these types of miracles are not beyond the capabilities of the biblical god?


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## CrackerJax (Oct 11, 2009)

A miracle is being out of rolling papers and then finding a pack in a drawer after a 20 minute search. You open it in anticipation, but the pack is empty. After a small hissy fit that follows the letdown, you go to throw that blasphemous pack away, and then you notice one last paper tucked behind the cardboard.


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## amore (Oct 14, 2009)

sad to hear it man, but i like to think they go to a nicer place.
iv lost good friends and i like to think they are still looking down on us..
my thoughts go out to everyone who has lost someone, but as they say
its all part of the plan.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 14, 2009)

Heh.... sure it is.


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## jfgordon1 (Oct 14, 2009)

amore said:


> but as they say
> its all part of the plan.





CrackerJax said:


> Heh.... sure it is.




I'm getting stoned... i'm starting to like this "plan"


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## CrackerJax (Oct 14, 2009)

All are welcome.... step into the light.


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## morgentaler (Oct 14, 2009)

I wish he'd come back and list some miracles.
Every time I've had someone claim that miracles are real, I ask for good examples and they disappear.
Hey, is that a miracle?


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## Hauvert (Oct 14, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> I wish he'd come back and list some miracles.
> Every time I've had someone claim that miracles are real, I ask for good examples and they disappear.
> Hey, is that a miracle?


listen here motherfucker(no offense  haha) 

i was raised with a very(kinda) religious family. i was taken to church every sunday since i can remember! a baby probaby
it sucked so much and it still kinda does...
but i have never doubted the existence of god.
Why?
its simply.
lets go back to science...
for a planet, or anything living in general(the universe) everything MUST be 100% PERFECT for it to exist. kinda like a recipe. now what are the chances that the whole universe had the exact ingredients and the exact amount to create all these planets? 

there is a god. 

sorry if it didn't make sense. im pretty damn high. and this spliff is killin me 

think about it thoe...


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## Mcgician (Oct 15, 2009)

Nocturn3 said:


> If the world is a battleground for souls, then the point of proof would be obvious.


And would render the need for faith utterly pointless. You don't seem to understand it's importance in the equation here. Also, if proving God's existence were merely as simple as a math equation, faith would have nothing to do with it either. IMO, the evidence is there. You just need to know how to look for it. 



Nocturn3 said:


> If your god really loved humanity, then he would provide proof, so more people would know which side to take. By not doing so, he is condemning them to eternal torture, or whatever bullshit your book says happens to unbelievers, when he could have saved them by simply showing a sign. He used to do that kind of thing regularly, according to your book. Why not now?


How can you be so sure it doesn't? Hell, if you watch enough Oprah or even Dr. Phil, even they have stories told that defy belief, and in any other circumstance, would equate with a modern day miracle.


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## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

> i was raised with a very(kinda) religious family. i was taken to church every sunday since i can remember! a baby probaby
> it sucked so much and it still kinda does...
> but i have never doubted the existence of god.
> Why?
> there is a god.


You show that you have been indoctrinated from early childhood, but that doesn't prove the existence of god.




> its simply.
> lets go back to science...
> for a planet, or anything living in general(the universe) everything MUST be 100% PERFECT for it to exist. kinda like a recipe.



100% perfect? For anything living?
Wow, that's absolutely ridiculous.
Because that statement is so all-encompassingly ludicrous if taken at face value, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you mean it only in the perspective of the first living cell occuring in the universe needing to be in a state that was perfect for it.
Except it's quite possible it wasn't.
The first living organism may have be wiped out of existence before it even had time to reproduce, because the state of the environment was such that the molecules could combine, but not not be sustained.

I suggest you read the chapter on the evolution of stable (non-living) molecules in The Selfish Gene. People tend to think of evolution only in the frame of biology, but it's more than that.

What is your definition of "perfect" for life. That's not a scientific term. Twenty years ago people would have been shocked to see the kind of bacterial life living in the heat of underwater volcanic vents. It was thought that it was impossible for life to exist in those extremes.

You don't need perfection for life. All you need is organic chemistry and probability.





> now what are the chances that the whole universe had the exact ingredients and the exact amount to create all these planets?



Oh and to answer your question, the chances are 100%. You should never take odds on an event that has already taken place.




Hauvert said:


> listen here motherfucker(no offense  haha)
> sorry if it didn't make sense. im pretty damn high. and this spliff is killin me
> think about it thoe...


Rule #37. Don't post on the internet while high. The LOLcats are watching.


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## Hauvert (Oct 15, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> You show that you have been indoctrinated from early childhood, but that doesn't prove the existence of god.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ahhh i don't really give ah fawk
i just believe. i could be wrong but i believe i'm right...not about all that bs i made up while high haha just in the existence of god.

you kinda got what i was saying...
life itself is pretty damn amazing.
how it works.


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## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

Mcgician said:


> And would render the need for faith utterly pointless. You don't seem to understand it's importance in the equation here. Also, if proving God's existence were merely as simple as a math equation, faith would have nothing to do with it either. IMO, the evidence is there. You just need to know how to look for it.


Until someone actually presents some evidence though, there is no proof for his existence. It's really that simple.



> How can you be so sure it doesn't? Hell, if you watch enough Oprah or even Dr. Phil, even they have stories told that defy belief, and in any other circumstance, would equate with a modern day miracle.


Well, of course they have stories that defy belief... because those shows are just ridiculous daytime entertainment for people who don't want to think.

Do you really expect that if they have a guest that says "I saw angels flying Uncle Sticky up to heaven" that Oprah is really going to send researchers out to investigate?

No. She'll just put them on TV and tell the audience how amazing it is that Jesus/God/whatever touches people differently.

The viewers want Oprah and Dr. Phil to think for them. Unfortunately for the viewers that plane doesn't have a pilot.

So far you've posted twice about miracles without actually presenting any, let alone proof of their miraculous nature.

Also, anecdotes do not constitute evidence. Saying "I jumped off my house and didn't die." is a personal anecdote. Not testable, and does not meat the criteria for supernatural intervention.
Let's see documentation and proof of a bona fide miracle.


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## cbtwohundread (Oct 15, 2009)

When one bo0k is closed another opened.,.,.,when i pass,a baby will be born.,.,i couldnt ask for anything else,.,.we are a man/woman once and a baby twice.,.,u will LEAVE this world the same way u came in hopefully.,.,pure and rightous,.,with no evil on ure mind,nor in ure works.,.,life is a long,bumpy foggy road.,.,but i love it so.,.,i have more energy inside i than the sun.,.,.so how could i die?the devils dead.,.,we live forever,.,im sr y for ure loss but.,.,if everytime something like this happens are u gona curse the lord?,


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## Nocturn3 (Oct 15, 2009)

Mcgician said:


> And would render the need for faith utterly pointless. You don't seem to understand it's importance in the equation here. Also, if proving God's existence were merely as simple as a math equation, faith would have nothing to do with it either. IMO, the evidence is there. You just need to know how to look for it.


But what about all the stuff your god used to do. He has provided "proof" to individual people (burning bushes, angel visitations, commandments etc), thus rendering the faith of those individuals pointless, by your own admission. Why does your god now value free will and faith so much, when he never used to?


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## robert 14617 (Oct 15, 2009)

it hard when someone close leaves before there time


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## Hauvert (Oct 15, 2009)

lets let this thread die...we all have our own own opinion about religion.
it's something that can't be talked about among 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 web users.
nor politics. we all know that.


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## Dylan360 (Oct 16, 2009)

lifes a bitch then you die so fuck the world and lets get high


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## CrackerJax (Oct 16, 2009)

Yes, in the end, it is the solitary fear of death which drives all religious thinking..... fear.


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## jfgordon1 (Oct 16, 2009)

Boogie Boogie Boogie ! ! ! ! ! !


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## morgentaler (Oct 16, 2009)

Why should an atheist fear death?
I was dead 14.5 billion years before I was born, and it wasn't bad at all.

Unless it was so horrible that I blocked it all out...

Save me, Jesus!


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## Mauihund (Oct 16, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear that.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 16, 2009)

I'll face my fear of death with an eye on reality, not wishful thinking.


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## Mcgician (Oct 17, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Until someone actually presents some evidence though, there is no proof for his existence. It's really that simple.


 You'd better hope so. I choose not to take that gamble. I don't know how else to tell you; I look at the summation of the incredibly scance chance for life, the fact that it produced intelligent life, the beauty of it, as well as the overall balance of nature, and can see miracles everywhere. IMO, what you call science, the laws of nature, etc, I call God. By you substituting science with God, you've already messed up the equation. If you still want proof, (under "man's" terms), I believe you are barking up the wrong tree. IMO, God has nothing to prove to YOU. Follow with faith, or follow not. It's really that simple. 





morgentaler said:


> Let's see documentation and proof of a bona fide miracle.


[youtube]-UsuVTRaglY[/youtube]


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## Straight up G (Oct 17, 2009)

What god is there to question? 

What has happened is awful and should not have to be endured by anyone, the human body is so fragile, god does not decide who lives and dies* [*if you kill someone *you* have decided if they live or die does that make you god?.*]* If the car broke down/caught at the lights/pulled over this tradgedy would have been avoided, I hope she enjoyed the time she was given, thats all you can ask.

Very sorry.


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## Straight up G (Oct 17, 2009)

Hauvert said:


> lets let this thread die...we all have our own own opinion about religion.
> it's something that can't be talked about among 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 web users.
> nor politics. we all know that.


I am not here to argue faith, religion and politics there are few referances left to be attributed to this innocent girl and although I did not know her I wish to voice my opinion out of respect for her and the life she was given.


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## morgentaler (Oct 17, 2009)

Mcgician said:


> By you substituting science with God, you've already messed up the equation.


One doesn't substitute the other. 

Science is a rational and methodological approach to understanding the mechanisms through which things occur.

God is a religious construct which is part of faith, the belief in something without substantiating evidence.

They're not even close.



> IMO, God has nothing to prove to YOU.


Your religious texts state that God demands worship. He does not *ask*. He extorts with the threat of torture.

So if your biblical God wants to be worshipped, he certainly does need to prove his worth.

But first, prove the existence. Because until then the point is moot.


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## josh b (Oct 17, 2009)

1 of my close friends got stabbed 15 yrs old 2 years ago,things happen man even though this is the dirty south of england where its grimey things like this shouldnt happen people should die its bad man,god is there just hes being a twat face atm

soz for ur loss


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## DJBoxhouse (Oct 17, 2009)

I'm horribly sorry for your loss and your friends loss man, without getting into detail I appreciate and sympathize with you on a large level.

I don't believe there is a god, and if there was one I wouldn't want to be part of anything he represents or part of his 'greater purpose' that his followers light heartedly tend to speak of during these circumstances. This excuse is for cowards and the simple minded. It's an unfortunate thing to happen, but these things happen and they cannot be controlled. You, like everyone and everything else within nature cannot view it from the outside, for you are within nature, the natural. 

I won't get into a religious tiff, I just wanted to stress that point so you didn't pain over it, and hopefully you would be able to come to terms with a clearer mind and heart. All we can do is live life to it's fullest, love all we can, learn all there is to be learnt, and remember all we can claw at before our own ends. 

If there was such a thing as an afterlife, I don't believe it would be due to some spiritual hanger our bodies hang off of that dances off into a meadow once our bodies leave it but rather through the memories of those around us that are carried on afterwards. 

Memories keep the dead alive, thats the important thing. So just keep on loving, and remembering and all you can do then is move on and be the best you can be through the eyes of those you keep alive through memory/memories you cherish.


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## FlynLow (Oct 17, 2009)

Think of it this way.... Shes probably in a much more peaceful place watching over us all and smiling as we say its all part of a bigger plan. God bless


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## josh b (Oct 18, 2009)

that vidoe that someone posted here is great to watch when ur stoned


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## Babs34 (Oct 18, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> A miracle is being out of rolling papers and then finding a pack in a drawer after a 20 minute search. You open it in anticipation, but the pack is empty. After a small hissy fit that follows the letdown, you go to throw that blasphemous pack away, and then you notice one last paper tucked behind the cardboard.


*HALLELUJAH!!!*
*...always keep the faith.*


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## Mcgician (Oct 18, 2009)

josh b said:


> that vidoe that someone posted here is great to watch when ur stoned


You're welcome...

It's also very good sober too. Justine Suissa is the voice, and Oceanlab is the label. Definitely check out more of their work, you won't be disappointed.


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## Mcgician (Oct 18, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Science is a rational and methodological approach to understanding the mechanisms through which things occur.


In your opinion. IMO, science AT BEST is the closest man can come to trying to make sense of the laws of nature God put in place at the beginning. Try as you might to shrink the cosmos, and the laws of nature all you want, but grasping the consciousness of the Creator IMO, is beyond ANYONE'S grasp. Language itself is limiting in it's ability to convey thought and concepts. Mathematical and Physics equations and formulations, are mere futile attempts at man's trying to grasp the laws of nature. Try as you might, but true understanding will always be out of reach of the foulable.




morgentaler said:


> God is a religious construct which is part of faith, the belief in something without substantiating evidence.


 False. There is plenty of documented history (particularly archeological to back it up), if you care to look for it.




morgentaler said:


> Your religious texts state that God demands worship. He does not *ask*. He extorts with the threat of torture.


Incorrect. God merely states that to not follow his teachings and to believe in him will result in an existence "apart from God". Since God= light, that existence will forever be in darkness.




morgentaler said:


> So if your biblical God wants to be worshipped, he certainly does need to prove his worth.
> 
> But first, prove the existence. Because until then the point is moot.


The point is moot only if YOU want it to be. You have been given the CHOICE to choose faith or not. If that is too much for you to believe in, then so be it. That is YOUR choice, and precisely where, YOU choose for your own soul to go (if you believe you even have one). What is special about this, is that unlike a tyrannical government that imposes restricitions in freedom of choice/speech YOU control your own destiny in this matter.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 18, 2009)

G*D doesn't state anything..... G*D is the most silent partner ever.... 

The BOOK tells you G*D says.... keep it real. The Book is written by MAN.

Think it through...


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

Well, We can definitely rule him out to being a Woman, would of Heard from her Ages ago by NOw, repeatedly...


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

Mcgician said:


> False. There is plenty of documented history (particularly archeological to back it up), if you care to look for it.


There is no archaelogical history proving the existence of God. You've made the claim it's up to you to provide the proof now.



> Incorrect. God merely states that to not follow his teachings and to believe in him will result in an existence "apart from God". Since God= light, that existence will forever be in darkness.


"God states"... Look, until you prove your imaginary friend, quoting him is useless.




> The point is moot only if YOU want it to be. You have been given the CHOICE to choose faith or not. If that is too much for you to believe in, then so be it. That is YOUR choice, and precisely where, YOU choose for your own soul to go (if you believe you even have one). What is special about this, is that unlike a tyrannical government that imposes restricitions in freedom of choice/speech YOU control your own destiny in this matter.


Yes, I've been given the choice to look at the world with open eyes and try to understand things, or shutter them and just accept that things are as they are because the bible tells me so.

I wonder how much that freedom gave you nightmares as a child. Dreaming that you were going to hell for some perceived wrong, after you learned about eternal torment.


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

You See...


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## DogFacedDemon (Oct 18, 2009)

"God" is so utterly beyond comprehension that contemplating why "he" takes certain actions is preposterous.
First of all, we're going to have to realise that if there is a "God", it's probably an extra-dimensional entity beyond the need for genitalia - god neither urinates or has an other entity of similar scale to have intercourse with. I still find it hard to believe that in this day & age - with space travel, high technology & the awe-inspiring prophecies of quantum physics - that people still think that god moves every piece on the chess-board, for petty reasons. 'Oh look, a sinner! I had better give him some STD's & whatnot...'
I find atheism as amusing as main-stream religion; the same overly-dogmatic shit with no real proof, they've got their holy book - the god delusion, hail dawkins. It's pretty funny. Materialism? Really? Have you not heard the good news from the problem child of physics - quantum physics - that; every electron is the yawning mouth of a wormhole that leads to quadrillions of higher dimensional universes that are completely beyond rational apprehension? 
Have fun saying God can't possibly exist because you can't measure it with your ruler & pencil, while a moment later denouncing jesus lovers as ignorant fools - are you feeling enlightened? 
This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, I just enjoy ridiculing the atheist point of view because they think they're reasoning logically from religion being BS, to the creation of this unfathomably brilliant universe/multiverse being a random occurrence - 'the hubble telescope can't see any God, so there!". Flying the banner of science, while failing to acknowledge that at the root of modern science was an angelic revelation that was visited upon Rene DesCartes. People that think 'the big bang' is a sufficient explanation of the question; 'why are we here?'. 
Big bang theory states: EVERYTHING SPRANG FROM NOTHING, IN A SINGLE INSTANT, FOR NO REASON.
How is that any different from "... & God said; 'let there be light!'..."?
I think most people have no clue & should stop acting like they know what the f*uck they're talking about - even if "experts" say so.
& the rest of us, that KNOW "God" & it's endless implications & boundless love...
Ummm...
We've taken magic mushrooms before.


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## Babs34 (Oct 18, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> G*D doesn't state anything..... G*D is the most silent partner ever....
> 
> The BOOK tells you G*D says.... keep it real. The Book is written by MAN.
> 
> Think it through...


 *This is really sad. Someone starts a thread about losing someone to DEATH, and even though you and others have SO many threads arguing about God and debating him, you have to nab this one to debate too.*
*It's you that has so much to prove......not those crazy "Believers" you continue to think you gracefully mock.*


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

I agree with most of your post, except that there's a difference between an extra dimensional entity and a "God". 

If the former exists, it is a complex being that we may have trouble finding.

The latter is a construct of man. That's it. The biblical god, Thor, Mithra, Ganesh. Those are all just characters in books and legends.

They have nothing to do with what actually brought the universe into existence, whatever reason that may be.






DogFacedDemon said:


> "God" is so utterly beyond comprehension that contemplating why "he" takes certain actions is preposterous.
> First of all, we're going to have to realise that if there is a "God", it's probably an extra-dimensional entity beyond the need for genitalia - god neither urinates or has an other entity of similar scale to have intercourse with. I still find it hard to believe that in this day & age - with space travel, high technology & the awe-inspiring prophecies of quantum physics - that people still think that god moves every piece on the chess-board, for petty reasons. 'Oh look, a sinner! I had better give him some STD's & whatnot...'
> I find atheism as amusing as main-stream religion; the same overly-dogmatic shit with no real proof, they've got their holy book - the god delusion, hail dawkins. It's pretty funny. Materialism? Really? Have you not heard the good news from the problem child of physics - quantum physics - that; every electron is the yawning mouth of a wormhole that leads to quadrillions of higher dimensional universes that are completely beyond rational apprehension?
> Have fun saying God can't possibly exist because you can't measure it with your ruler & pencil, while a moment later denouncing jesus lovers as ignorant fools - are you feeling enlightened?
> ...


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

DogFacedDemon said:


> "God" is so utterly beyond comprehension that contemplating why "he" takes certain actions is preposterous.
> First of all, we're going to have to realise that if there is a "God", it's probably an extra-dimensional entity beyond the need for genitalia - god neither urinates or has an other entity of similar scale to have intercourse with. I still find it hard to believe that in this day & age - with space travel, high technology & the awe-inspiring prophecies of quantum physics - that people still think that god moves every piece on the chess-board, for petty reasons. 'Oh look, a sinner! I had better give him some STD's & whatnot...'
> I find atheism as amusing as main-stream religion; the same overly-dogmatic shit with no real proof, they've got their holy book - the god delusion, hail dawkins. It's pretty funny. Materialism? Really? Have you not heard the good news from the problem child of physics - quantum physics - that; every electron is the yawning mouth of a wormhole that leads to quadrillions of higher dimensional universes that are completely beyond rational apprehension?
> Have fun saying God can't possibly exist because you can't measure it with your ruler & pencil, while a moment later denouncing jesus lovers as ignorant fools - are you feeling enlightened?
> ...


WoW Man, This was an Awesome Post.., here I'll let a Secret out Of The Bag Too.." Atheist Remain quite More Open to the Aspect of there being A Deity God than I do"... , but I guess I need to Start being more open to the Concept again as Well..., I have stated this As well in the past, Hey Zeus didn't believe in a Deity Father, but a Spiritual Being that encompassed everything..., but that's my opinion... Something I have come to understand and realize through the Written Scripture, No matter.., It's all the SAme..., Following in The Footsteps of Christ will Definitely lead you to The FAther.., except many so called followers don't adhere to that notion..., Excellent Post... +++++rep


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## Nocturn3 (Oct 18, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *This is really sad. Someone starts a thread about losing someone to DEATH, and even though you and others have SO many threads arguing about God and debating him, you have to nab this one to debate too.*
> *It's you that has so much to prove......not those crazy "Believers" you continue to think you gracefully mock.*





jfgordon1 said:


> I'm not trying to get sympathy. I was trying to start a discussion about "why bad things happen" if there is a god (i'm an atheist/agnostic). This was a bad way going about it...


Keep up Babs.

Interesting avatar, btw.


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## Babs34 (Oct 18, 2009)

*And that was supposed to be what? Worthy of a reply?*
*Yeah, everyone really stayed on topic, right. *


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

DogFacedDemon said:


> "
> Big bang theory states: EVERYTHING SPRANG FROM NOTHING, IN A SINGLE INSTANT, FOR NO REASON.


Oh, and that's not Big Bang, this is: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

You're thinking of the zero sum model, which is based on negative and positive states in equilibrium. This is not part of Big Bang theory.

And the "no reason" part is just silly. 
Science doesn't look for "reason". It looks for cause. And there must be a cause for expansionism.


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## DogFacedDemon (Oct 18, 2009)

I guess that's just my cultural conditioning, being raised catholic & all. I can't help using the term "God", & don't really mind doing so as it's just a word. I don't relate it to any pre-packaged god of any hack institution or anything. Although, I do much prefer the term 'the transcendental object at the end of time'. But, generally, mentioning that causes people to 'wtf' wildly.


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *And that was supposed to be what? Worthy of a reply?*
> *Yeah, everyone really stayed on topic, right. *


I think he was a bit surprised that your avatar is a statement that if it wasn't for religion the World Trade Center would still be standing.

Would it be safe to assume your interpretation is that if it wasn't for the "muslim religion" it would still be standing?


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## sammo (Oct 18, 2009)

It is amazing how people blame all the shit that happens on God! I too have noticed that a lot of the best people die young and have lost some very good friends. In this situation and others like it of course it is sad for the family and friends but for the ones who have "passed away" I know they are in a much better place. I sure as hell don't care or worry about what all the non believing "enlightened ones" think because they will sooner or later find out how wrong they were. .


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *This is really sad. Someone starts a thread about losing someone to DEATH, and even though you and others have SO many threads arguing about God and debating him, you have to nab this one to debate too.*
> *It's you that has so much to prove......not those crazy "Believers" you continue to think you gracefully mock.*


You apparently missed the post by the OP stating that he started the thread specifically for debate.


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## Babs34 (Oct 18, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> I think he was a bit surprised that your avatar is a statement that if it wasn't for religion the World Trade Center would still be standing.
> 
> Would it be safe to assume your interpretation is that if it wasn't for the "muslim religion" it would still be standing?


 *As usual, all those "assumptions" .....*
*that wasn't the intended statement with the avatar at all, but with everything...there is interpretatation.*
*You can't see in that picture what the next can. I'm betting that won't make sense to you though, lol.*


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## DogFacedDemon (Oct 18, 2009)

Brazko said:


> WoW Man, This was an Awesome Post.., here I'll let a Secret out Of The Bag Too.." Atheist Remain quite More Open to the Aspect of there being A Deity God than I do"... , but I guess I need to Start being more open to the Concept again as Well..., I have stated this As well in the past, Hey Zeus didn't believe in a Deity Father, but a Spiritual Being that encompassed everything..., but that's my opinion... Something I have come to understand and realize through the Written Scripture, No matter.., It's all the SAme..., Following in The Footsteps of Christ will Definitely lead you to The FAther.., except many so called followers don't adhere to that notion..., Excellent Post... +++++rep


Thank you much. 
I believe that everyone needs to piece together their own understanding of how the reality works. I believe that we're all little perceptual organs of "god", within "god", an entity which - in the process of playing out reality - is mapping itself.
I haven't read much scripture, but I do intend on getting around to it at some point. It's on my list. 
Thanks for the kind words, man!


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## Babs34 (Oct 18, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> You apparently missed the post by the OP stating that he started the thread specifically for debate.


 *Whether or not God exists Morgan?*
*Or WHY God allows things of this nature to happen?*


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

sammo said:


> It is amazing how people blame all the shit that happens on God! I too have noticed that a lot of the best people die young and have lost some very good friends. In this situation and others like it of course it is sad for the family and friends but for the ones who have "passed away" I know they are in a much better place. I sure as hell don't care or worry about what all the non believing "enlightened ones" think because they will sooner or later find out how wrong they were. .


It's funny how God is supposed to be responsible for all the good things that happen to people, but when bad things happen and other people comment on it, it's not God being an asshole, it's him letting things just play out, or "God's plan".

You forget that the biblical God is an interventionist, and brings down death and destruction where he sees fit.

The shining hypocrisy of religion is when a disaster strikes and people are interviewed on TV and thank God for answering their prayers and saving their lives and possessions, while their neighbors are mourning the dead and the loss of everything.

Yay God. Have a cookie. Try not to kill anyone else today.


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## DogFacedDemon (Oct 18, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Oh, and that's not Big Bang, this is:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
> 
> You're thinking of the zero sum model, which is based on negative and positive states in equilibrium. This is not part of Big Bang theory.
> ...


Well, I guess I am being a little lavish with the hyperbole. But, the general attitude of popular science is that the universe is 'trendlessly fluctuating'. I think that's not too far of a leap in reasoning - to say that the universe sprang from nothing in a single instant, for no reason. Well, I heard it sprang from nothing on the discovery channel & shit.  & if from yonder point in the matrix of space/time, that the universe did THEN begin to 'trendlessly fluctuate', then... I may have been on to something.

Good point, though. +reps


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## Babs34 (Oct 18, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Why should an atheist fear death?
> I was dead 14.5 billion years before I was born, and it wasn't bad at all.
> 
> Unless it was so horrible that I blocked it all out...
> ...


 *Countless times now I've seen atheists claim that only believers "fear" death. How ridiculous is that?*
*Since when is it normal to look forward to death?*
*When they don't "fear" death, they are looking forward to it so they can be with Jesus....the logic always astounds me. *
*Which is it?*


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## DogFacedDemon (Oct 18, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Whether or not God exists Morgan?*
> *Or WHY God allows things of this nature to happen?*



I don't believe "God" has a sense of moral values as we do. I don't believe it recognizes good/bad. I think the prime concern of the transcendental object is information; new things, new data, new species, new anomalies, ad nauseum. Death is a side effect of life. Life is in contravention to Maxwell's 2nd law of thermodynamics. Life is sustained far from equalibrium, it's an unstable system - & a miraculous one at that. It's bound to have some downsides. God doesn't sign the warrant on every death.

Although, I could just be a one man cult.


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## howhighru (Oct 18, 2009)

when its time for Gods calling you must go. he took my mother at the young age of 59 in her sleep. i hated him for the longest time, why the fuck would he let this happen? no one knows, only him. its been 2 years now and im now coming to terms with things, somewhat. but i am sry to hear bout ur friends sister.. my sympathy to u n the family


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## CrackerJax (Oct 18, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Countless times now I've seen atheists claim that only believers "fear" death. How ridiculous is that?*
> *Since when is it normal to look forward to death?*
> *When they don't "fear" death, they are looking forward to it so they can be with Jesus....the logic always astounds me. *
> *Which is it?*



You need to choose ur words more carefully else you won't be taken as seriously. 

Think it through and see if you can clean up ur post.


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## SocataSmoker (Oct 18, 2009)

I won't say it's name is God or whatever... and I really don't think the Bible is trustworthy. I'm agnostic because I believe that, something cannot come from nothing, as some believe (big bang). This vast, vast universe... practically incomprehensible in size... to me, was made by some THING, long long ago... whether or not that thing is still alive is never to be known to mortal humans, _perhaps_ only to those that've "passed on". 

Only my point of view... in the long run, I don't think it should truly matter if you believe in a certain god or what have you... live your life, keep good karma, forgive others... and all should be okay.


As for your friends sister... if you wanna put it in a God context, it was free will... whatever caused the wreck was a person's free will to drive how they were driving... God cannot stop free will or so "it" says. Just like God can't stop the drunk driver from plowing down the interstate... it is that driver's free will, unfortunately his free will might just cost someone their own life, including his.


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> And there must be a cause for expansionism.


have Science ever mentioned anything about Space being A Void, Vacuum...

Maybe whatever was in existence before our Physical Universe was observed was in another Dimension that crossed a plane which we now observe as Our Space... An infinite Void, A VAcuum.. Matter is NOt Expanding, It is REceeding from surrounding MATTER, Space is Expanding but not in the terms You are Thinking.. WE may actually be seeing farther INto Space than What the Actually size of The Physical Universe May Be, VIA Light.... HOwever Light is Being Sucked Back AS WEll...

I would suggest that the people who keep saying the Universe is Expanding and Red Shifting and What not, understand the theory that is being put forward.., If you are going dedicate your life to living by it, Understand Your Science, Please... 

and on that note, I'll have to go back and look it over myself...


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

The second law of thermodynamics refers to a closed system.

Earth is not a closed system. It is influenced by the sun and other outside factors.








DogFacedDemon said:


> I don't believe "God" has a sense of moral values as we do. I don't believe it recognizes good/bad. I think the prime concern of the transcendental object is information; new things, new data, new species, new anomalies, ad nauseum. Death is a side effect of life. Life is in contravention to Maxwell's 2nd law of thermodynamics. Life is sustained far from equalibrium, it's an unstable system - & a miraculous one at that. It's bound to have some downsides. God doesn't sign the warrant on every death.
> 
> Although, I could just be a one man cult.


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

Have you checked out "A Briefer History of Time" by Hawking?

There's an audiobook for it, so you can listen while we all argue on here 




Brazko said:


> have Science ever mentioned anything about Space being A Void, Vacuum...
> 
> Maybe whatever was in existence before our Physical Universe was observed was in another Dimension that crossed a plane which we now observe as Our Space... A Voidless VAcuum.. Matter is NOt Expanding, It is REceeding from surrounding MATTER, Space is Expanding but not in the terms You are Thinking.. WE may actually be seeing farther INto Space than What the Actually size of The Physical Universe May Be, VIA Light.... HOwever Light is Being Sucked Back AS WEll...
> 
> ...


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Have you checked out "A Briefer History of Time" by Hawking?
> 
> There's an audiobook for it, so you can listen while we all argue on here


No, I rather REad it, but you can tell me now what he says about an Expanding Universe.., Is he the one along with his Peers that put forth that Theory, or did someone else and "A Briefer History of Time" is his interpretation of an Expanding Universe? Because if it is His Book contradicts the Theory he put Forth..

But explain Expansionism Please? Why are you talking about Argueing? I take back the comment that may have seem to belittle anyone's intelligence, I'm Sorry...

So, if it's alright, we don't have to argue, Just explain Expansionism..


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

DogFacedDemon said:


> Well, I guess I am being a little lavish with the hyperbole. But, the general attitude of popular science is that the universe is 'trendlessly fluctuating'. I think that's not too far of a leap in reasoning - to say that the universe sprang from nothing in a single instant, for no reason. Well, I heard it sprang from nothing on the discovery channel & shit.  & if from yonder point in the matrix of space/time, that the universe did THEN begin to 'trendlessly fluctuate', then... I may have been on to something.
> 
> Good point, though. +reps


I think Degrasse-Tyson gives some of the best explanations about space and the universe. When the writers are actually scientists and not just film makers they do a better job of presenting the complex stuff, than someone summarizing work that's completely new to them.

The zero-sum model seems like a good explanation of how something can come from nothing, but mostly because "our nothing" and the universe's nothing are two different things.

If two different states create a single state of nothingness, then when they diverge again, something is there... with a positive state and a negative state. 

What separates them... well... maybe someone will figure that out. 

It's a fairly recent concept to me, and I have no idea if its a "better" concept than the big bang, but most scientists in that field still seem to feel expansionist "big bang" theory is the ticket. Where the singularity at the heart of it all came from is the next thing to look for. It would be amazing if at some point (not likely in our lifetimes) they're able to observe the birth of another universe. They've seen the birth of galaxies, so maybe the tech will exist some day to observe other universes, if they exist.

Brane collisions are another alternative for universe creation, and that's quantum stuff that's just a mind bending to read. I need to find a good documentary on that and get a basis to start from before trying to read deeper into it. 

Was it Sagan that said "Man is just the universe trying to understand itself"?


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

I'll Say it again, the Expanding Universe, is not Expanding in the Term of thought you Are using...

Please study up some more on the Concept of an Expanding Universe, Or just Explain it to me now,, I may be confused..


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

Brazko said:


> have Science ever mentioned anything about Space being A Void, Vacuum...


Yes, though interplanetary space's vacuum does have a minute amount of matter in it. The farther out toward the "rim" of the universe you go, the less matter there is.



> Maybe whatever was in existence before our Physical Universe was observed was in another Dimension that crossed a plane which we now observe as Our Space


... An infinite Void, A VAcuum.. Matter is NOt Expanding, It is REceeding from surrounding MATTER, Space is Expanding but not in the terms You are Thinking.. WE may actually be seeing farther INto Space than What the Actually size of The Physical Universe May Be, VIA Light.... 

The limits of what we can see is roughly 1/3 of the actual distance those objects are from us now. They've kept moving outward while it took time for the light to reach us.

So what we see at 13 billion light years distance is now 45.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_Universe



> HOwever Light is Being Sucked Back AS WEll...


An object with a gravity well big enough to suck light back toward us would have already destroyed us. 
If light is moving away from us, we won't see it. It can either be moving towards us at a speed that is slightly faster (relatively speaking), because we are moving toward it, or slightly slower, because we are moving away from it.




> I would suggest that the people who keep saying the Universe is Expanding and Red Shifting and What not, understand the theory that is being put forward.., If you are going dedicate your life to living by it, Understand Your Science, Please...
> 
> and on that note, I'll have to go back and look it over myself...


I've not heard of a single professional astronomer nor astrophysicist who doubts the universe is currently expanding.

The big point of contention is whether it keeps on going, or eventually snaps back.


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

No, you do not understand what you are talking about, and I'm not trying to belittle you, but you don't... 75% of the Universe is Presumed to be Dark Energy (not Matter), 23% is presumed Dark Matter, 2% is our Observed Physical Matter that is being consumed by the Dark Matter.. There is no matter on no Outer Rim, 

here is a link for you.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

and if I'm wrong, just please help me understand it better, by explaining it to me... 

This time, I really have to go, and I'll get back witcha


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

Brazko said:


> No, you do not understand what you are talking about, and I'm not trying to belittle you, but you don't... 75% of the Universe is Presumed to be Dark Energy (not Matter), 23% is presumed Dark Matter, 2% is our Observed Physical Matter that is being consumed by the Dark Matter.. There is no matter on no Outer Rim,
> 
> here is a link for you.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space


There's a reason I put "rim" in quotes.
Because humans like to put tangible limits on things.

So what exactly do I not know what I'm talking about.

I haven't opined that light is being sucked back toward us...


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

Brazko said:


> and if I'm wrong, just please help me understand it better, by explaining it to me...
> 
> This time, I really have to go, and I'll get back witcha


Explain what to you?
You made a bunch of points. I countered some of them. What in specifics are you interested in?


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Explain what to you?
> You made a bunch of points. I countered some of them. What in specifics are you interested in?


You haven't countered nothing, because the points you made are not valid, you are basing your counter on information you don't understand, regardless the accuracy of the information, because it does not state what you are saying.. 

YOu figure out what happens to light, by you logic it just dissappears and waits for the next Bus to show itself, Universe that is, Light does not just exist, and emit itself, It is emitted from Matter and will Reside where matter will end Up.... , Now I'm belittling you because you don't know what you are talking about, but only because you refuse to look over the information again, and clearly comprehend what is being said.. It's Right There... if I'm wrong Explain how so, I may be confused, but now I'm highly starting to doubt it... 

You just continue with your Illogical Beef as Well.... that Makes everything more Logically Understood,


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

You spouted this:



> have Science ever mentioned anything about Space being A Void, Vacuum...
> 
> Maybe whatever was in existence before our Physical Universe was observed was in another Dimension that crossed a plane which we now observe as Our Space... A Voidless VAcuum.. Matter is NOt Expanding, It is REceeding from surrounding MATTER, Space is Expanding but not in the terms You are Thinking.. WE may actually be seeing farther INto Space than What the Actually size of The Physical Universe May Be, VIA Light.... HOwever Light is Being Sucked Back AS WEll...
> 
> ...


You addressed the visible and physical size of space, incorrectly.

You talked about light being "sucked back". 
A photon travels in one direction until the path is altered by gravity or reflection.
To "suck" light back from the distances you are talking about you would need an object behind us, relative to the object the light is being "sucked back" from, to exert gravitational force sufficient to pull light into it. 
Of course we'd be in that gravity well, and would have been destroyed long before the "sucked" light made it back here.

You're blowing out unscientific, incomplete thoughts, and then dodge the answers to just throw out other items without their relevance to your train of thought.

Now I know you actually don't give a shit about it. It's a common creationist tactic to win an argument. Keep spitting out fallacies about sciences concepts of nature until someone says "Well, science doesn't know that yet". Then it's happy-dancing time, and "I proved God exists!", while the rational people look at each other and wonder who put the Jesus-juice in your drinking water.

So if you want to show good intent, and not prove to be one of those hacks, please provide one single peer-reviewed and published paper from a scientific journal proving the existence of God. Just one.

It can't be that hard to find, right?

PubMed's got over 250,000 on evolution alone.

Bonus points if you can tell me what escapes from Black Holes.


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## IAm5toned (Oct 18, 2009)

i stole this from another thread...
somehow i find it appropriate

ps for morgentaler-
xrays


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## Mcgician (Oct 18, 2009)

DogFacedDemon said:


> "God" is so utterly beyond comprehension that contemplating why "he" takes certain actions is preposterous.
> First of all, we're going to have to realise that if there is a "God", it's probably an extra-dimensional entity beyond the need for genitalia - god neither urinates or has an other entity of similar scale to have intercourse with. I still find it hard to believe that in this day & age - with space travel, high technology & the awe-inspiring prophecies of quantum physics - that people still think that god moves every piece on the chess-board, for petty reasons. 'Oh look, a sinner! I had better give him some STD's & whatnot...'
> I find atheism as amusing as main-stream religion; the same overly-dogmatic shit with no real proof, they've got their holy book - the god delusion, hail dawkins. It's pretty funny. Materialism? Really? Have you not heard the good news from the problem child of physics - quantum physics - that; every electron is the yawning mouth of a wormhole that leads to quadrillions of higher dimensional universes that are completely beyond rational apprehension?
> Have fun saying God can't possibly exist because you can't measure it with your ruler & pencil, while a moment later denouncing jesus lovers as ignorant fools - are you feeling enlightened?
> ...


+1. Thanks. Those were the words I was looking for, but after a ten hour workday, and so little time, I simply lack the energy for this lovely back and forth. +rep!


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## igrowdro (Oct 18, 2009)

there is a saying, that god is good. there you have it there is your god. Good is god. a good action is a noble action but it is not god. it is you. but you are not god. so what am i saying. God is any and everything that is good. satin is anything that is evil. in science it has been proven that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. in the bible it says when cain killed abel the decendants of that one single evil deed multiplied by the millions. its like telling a lie and then having to tell another lie and then another lie to pass the first lie off as true. you have to balance it out to a million lies and it still doesnt equal telling the truth which would have been easier in the first place. if you would have told the truth then you would have influenced yourself to be more like god which would have been the good thing. you told a lie therefore you influenced yourself to b more like satin which is bad. what goes around comes around what goes up must come down.


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## doitinthewoods (Oct 18, 2009)

Sorry to hear that, dude. I thought the same thing after watching 5 of my friends get vaporized by an IED in a dried up river bed in Afghanistan.


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> You spouted this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


......., FAil.., Sorry I had to do it, but you have absolutely no clue of what you are talking about, I'll prove the existence of God, When you prove you understand your God=Science...

Light travels in one direction Right? yes Right... it is traveling in all directions from Matter.. And Light doesn't escape from black holes if that's what you are trying to imply..., but I'm sure you may be talking about Hawkings Radiation, where after billions upon billions upon billions of years of minute particles that may be emitted from the Black hole may cause it to vaporize, this loss would result in energy and sub atomic particles being released.. This was suggested by Your God Hawkins, and denounced by his peers and then Later by Himself.... But there are other working theories that Physicist continue to work on due to the aspects of Quantum Physics in relation of how particles vanish then reappear..from another space time dimension..., however this isn't a fact but another plausible better idea than Hawkins RAdiation....

Stop alluding the fact you have no idea of what you are talking about, then try to use the God escape Clause to make a smooth getaway..., I'm not going to say it, however, it's on the tip of my tongue.., but stop trying to pomote your beliefs on Science, Science is Science, it sets no judgements on rather a God does or does not Exist.., it just simply states what it is able to observe with the mechanical tools we have, that are far, far, far, faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar, less advanced than our own Mind....edit, some of our minds...

I can't discuss REligion and Philosophy with Atheists, Now it seems I can't even discuss Science with 1.. Always somebody trying to impose their beliefs... Science is not a Belief, Unlike Atheism..


Now here's a Hug for You.., and I'm Through..


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

I'm still waiting on My Foot Stool..., I ain't Forgot, I have for all Eternity brother...I want to be able to Focus all My Energy on You...You know who I'm talking too, Fiddy Coming For Ya'.. Wanna Mock me Huh'..  Behold where that Mockery has gotten you...


TiiiiiIIIIIIIiIiiIIIime, is on Myyyyy Side, Yes, it is, TiiiiiiIIIIiiIIIIIiImme is on Myyyy Side,, Yes it is..


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

I don't have to mock you.

You've done a fine job of making a fool out of yourself, vomiting forth random nonsensical crap, with very brief bursts of readable dialog. 

Wow. Fiddy is coming for me. Should I be looking up some rap lyrics now, so I can understand where Fiddy is coming from? Or would you like to tell us all what they mean, so you can get them wrong too.

Yes, time is on your side, but you'll be spending it alone and stupid. 

Ignored.


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> I don't have to mock you.
> 
> You've done a fine job of making a fool out of yourself, vomiting forth random nonsensical crap, with very brief bursts of readable dialog.
> 
> ...


Illogical Circular Reasoning..,

Avoid the fact I addressed your Post, and politely gave you A Hug, because I Love You..

Then illogically feel I'm talking about you, when I'm talking directly to you, still trying to allude the fAct you have no Idea of What your talking About...

Illogical Circular REasoning.., I found another Observant contagious Disease you all CArry as WEll..Obviously, CJ does it much better, but he's Quite not like the REst of You Either..., Still falling Short on the Totem Pole...,

Ignore Me, You act as If I Started Breathing when you appeared, I'll wait to you REincarnate yourself Again..


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

This is awesome. I can see that he's posting, but all the crap is just filtered away.
Science gave us technology. Technology gave us the internet. The internet gave us forums. And Ignore filters the stupid out.


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## Juan Abongheet (Oct 18, 2009)

jfgordon1 said:


> Last night my buddies 16 year old sister passed away in a car crash. If there is a God... why would he do this? She had so much to live for. Beautiful, smart, fun...
> 
> Is God evil ?
> 
> How do people make excuses for "God"? "God has a plan"


I posed a similar question to a firm southern baptist and his reply was this:
"God has a plan for all of us. The death of another is not something which we need to assign reason to- its Gods plan. We need to not see the death as plainly as a loss, but more as God showing us a glimpse of his plan."
I thought it was complete bollocks, thus my belief in Deism. There is a reason for things, but to define that reason is to be fallible in human thought- i.e. we dont know so how can we explain?


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

and non sensical, I take it that you have no Clue about Hawkins Radiation aS Well..., PItiful, What you think, just because I dropped outta 5th Grade and had to labor secretely at McDonalds mopping up the Floor, I wouldn't Someday make it to Fries.., You have no Idea What they teach you in The Secret Society of Golden Arches...


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## Juan Abongheet (Oct 18, 2009)

A lot of this reminds me of that Southpark episode...






Science be Damned!


(edited out crappy HTML that found its way to be posted...)


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

Juan Abongheet said:


> I posed a similar question to a firm southern baptist and his reply was this:
> "God has a plan for all of us. The death of another is not something which we need to assign reason to- its Gods plan. We need to not see the death as plainly as a loss, but more as God showing us a glimpse of his plan."
> I thought it was complete bollocks, thus my belief in Deism. There is a reason for things, but to define that reason is to be fallible in human thought- i.e. we dont know so how can we explain?


Well, I have an Opinion on what the Plan is, but it's just a human thought -

There is No Plan per Se'.. The only plan is to return, and be Whole..., WE are separted from that Whole and will return to that whole when the Energy we poessess is able to Detach itself from the Material Universe..., We live our lives so the Soul, Spirit, Energy, Matures to the point it is free of the Material World... Shit happens..., Accidents, heartaches, because everybody is absorded into themselves, caring for only themselves and not the Whole.., If you care about your Brothers, ther Wouldn't be accidents because you wouldn't be speeding and not looking out for your human Brother/Sister..., Bridges would not collapse if indivduall entities didn't want to lose money that would benefit themselves and expend the energy to make everybody safe that traveled those roads..., People would not suffer or be homeless, or have to travel and Work odd # of jobs just to make it because Their Neighbor was too selfish, Chilling in their 20 room mansion, with 30 cars for every day of the Month... to continue on is dreadful in thought, but maybe you understand the point.., The misery we have is because we choose to be selfish and cling to a Material World, that only inhibits the Spirit, Energy, Soul, from maturing... So as We learn to Mature shit happens to People and That energy, Soul, Spirit, has to start over, but not from the beginning, it is Carried over into the next Cycle of Life, Where that energy,Soul, Spirit, picks up where it left off.., and eventually it will progress through life where that energ/ Spirit/ Soul has matured enough to move ON from this Materialistic World, it no longer has a Need for it..., Unfortunately the Innocent get caught up in the Melay of the Selfish and Shit happens.., There is no Plan per se'.., Only plan is that we will Return to the Whole from which we were divided...,

This is Just a Thought from a Limitied Human, I have no actual knowledge of what beholds us in this Infinite Universe


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## Juan Abongheet (Oct 18, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Well, I have an Opinion on what the Plan is, but it's just a human thought -
> 
> There is No Plan per Se'.. The only plan is to return, and be Whole..., WE are separted from that Whole and will return to that whole when the Energy we poessess is able to Detach itself from the Material Universe..., We live our lives so the Soul, Spirit, Energy, Matures to the point it is free of the Material World... Shit happens..., Accidents, heartaches, because everybody is absorded into themselves, caring for only themselves and not the Whole.., If you care about your Brothers, ther Wouldn't be accidents because you wouldn't be speeding and not looking out for your human Brother/Sister..., Bridges would not collapse if indivduall entities didn't want to lose money that would benefit themselves and expend the energy to make everybody safe that traveled those roads..., People would not suffer or be homeless, or have to travel and Work odd # of jobs just to make it because Their Neighbor was too selfish, Chilling in their 20 room mansion, with 30 cars for every day of the Month... to continue on is dreadful in thought, but maybe you understand the point.., The misery we have is because we choose to selfish and cling to a Material World, that only inhibits the Spirit, Energy, Soul, from maturing... So as We learn to Mature shit happens to People and That energy, Soul, Spirit, has to start over, but not from the beginning, it is Carried over into the next Cycle of Life, Where that energy,Soul, Spirit, picks up where it left off.., and eventually it will progress through life where that energ/ Spirit/ Soul has matured enough to move ON from this Materialistic World, it no longer has a Need for it..., Unfortunately the Innocent get caught up in the Melay of the Selfish and Shit happens.., There is no Plan per se'.., Only plan is that we will Return to the Whole from which we were divided...,
> 
> This is Just a Thought from a Limitied Human, I have no actual knowledge of what beholds us in this Infinite Universe



nicely nicely!
I agree- its like one of the fundamental truths of Buddhism- with life comes suffering, suffering is caused by desire.
We desire to have these things which we feel we need- i.e. in your example of cars and other material BS, which only serves us 'in the flesh'. In reality, we have what we have- ourselves and each other- we are our brothers keeper and when, as Jimi put it, :the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know true peace."
Well said, my friend! + rep


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

Juan Abongheet said:


> nicely nicely!
> I agree- its like one of the fundamental truths of Buddhism- with life comes suffering, suffering is caused by desire.
> We desire to have these things which we feel we need- i.e. in your example of cars and other material BS, which only serves us 'in the flesh'. In reality, we have what we have- ourselves and each other- we are our brothers keeper and when, as Jimi put it, :the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know true peace."
> Well said, my friend! + rep


Thanks, Bro'...., and Yeah, You Got It


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## MexicanWarlord420 (Oct 18, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Why should an atheist fear death?
> I was dead 14.5 billion years before I was born, and it wasn't bad at all.
> 
> Unless it was so horrible that I blocked it all out...
> ...


whoa never thought of it like that


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## vtguy429 (Oct 18, 2009)

Sorry to hear bro, careful as to where your questioning leads as this is a very indepth subject that I don't believe a human mind is yet capable nor ready to understand, you will only loose time dwelling.. My condolences to you, your friend, and his family.


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## Babs34 (Oct 18, 2009)

MexicanWarlord420 said:


> whoa never thought of it like that


 LOL, Morgan never says which it is.
Are we eager or scared to die?


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## jfgordon1 (Oct 18, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> LOL, Morgan never says which it is.
> Are we eager or scared to die?


lol only crazy people are eager.


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## Babs34 (Oct 18, 2009)

*my point...exactly*


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> LOL, Morgan never says which it is.
> Are we eager or scared to die?


Christians can hardly wait to be with Jesus, but sure do pray a lot not to get there too quickly.
I guess not every one is 100% if their final destination is the penthouse or the basement.


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## PadawanBater (Oct 18, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> LOL, Morgan never says which it is.
> Are we eager or scared to die?


 
Quite the* false dichotomy* right there Babs... You know what that means, right?

Too bad it's not simply "eager or scared to die", there are infact other options...

Howbout "content with death"? 

It's going to happen one day, whether you want it to or not. Nobody makes it out of life alive. So why fear it? What is to fear? 

As Morgen put it, we were dead before and it wasn't so terrible. 


Sure tells us evil atheists A LOT about your line of thinking though. Tells me you do infact fear death. Also tells me that's probably a HUGE reason for your dogmatic faith. You fear death and the thought of non existence so much, you're willing to accept anything that will brainwash you into believing there actually is some kind of afterlife as the truth. 

Well, luckily, not all of us are that weak minded... the rest of us will just keep society advancing while the rest of the fanatics piggy back all of sciences successes and take them all for granted...


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## Babs34 (Oct 19, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> Quite the* false dichotomy* right there Babs... You know what that means, right?
> 
> Too bad it's not simply "eager or scared to die", there are infact other options...
> 
> ...


 *Wow, I can't even take you seriously. You are ENTIRELY TOO INTENSE a person.*
*I feel I should post a link here where you just reamed "believers" for judging you, yeah, LOL....what a joke.*
*Quit your barking!!!*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 19, 2009)

Translation: babs can't admit an error.


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## Babs34 (Oct 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Translation: babs can't admit an error.


 *LOL, hahahaha.*
*TRUE translation----the two of you are miserable people who just love to argue.*
*But seriously, not laughing, that's just SAD.*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 19, 2009)

Ur the one going in circles, not I.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 11, 2009)

jfgordon1 - You have my condolences.

I prefer to believe "she passed on."

I don't know the afterlife.

I believe in my afterlife.

I believe losing a loved one hurts more than most human things.

If the Christians understand their holy book correctly, Warrior Jesus is about to show up on the scene and kick some royal ass.

I guess we can ask him to elaborate the details on The Plan.

I think one of the best things Humanity can do is to pick up our binoculars and begin scanning the night skies for Angels.

Does anyone understand the problems associated with finding asteroids or comets that may come a little to close to Humanities mental construct of The Law Of Attraction called Gravity?


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## 7665bkg (Nov 11, 2009)

sorry man but is god out there or, are you your own god has he talked to you lately thru a burning bush? naw no kidding didn't think so guess what your on your own and have been since day one. fuck it be you own god.


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## Stoney McFried (Nov 11, 2009)

"Burning bush"-another term for "yeast infection".


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## 7665bkg (Nov 11, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Wow, I can't even take you seriously. You are ENTIRELY TOO INTENSE a person.*
> *I feel I should post a link here where you just reamed "believers" for judging you, yeah, LOL....what a joke.*
> *Quit your barking!!!*


calm down let us all breath along with you for the love of god lol


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## 7665bkg (Nov 11, 2009)

Stoney McFried said:


> "Burning bush"-another term for "yeast infection".


lol you are right see how it all links together man we create what we want in this life


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## kronic1989 (Nov 11, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> jfgordon1 - You have my condolences.
> 
> I prefer to believe "she passed on."
> 
> ...



I don't. Elaborate....


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## Stoney McFried (Nov 11, 2009)

It's all how we perceive it.


7665bkg said:


> lol you are right see how it all links together man we create what we want in this life


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## 7665bkg (Nov 11, 2009)

i think this person is saying we are going to destroy ourselves; just by thinking it so.


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## Stoney McFried (Nov 11, 2009)

Well, maybe not in a blinding explosion or anything quite so obvious, but it is true that negative thinking can have an effect on your daily life.For example, if you think,"Well, I'm getting old and less attractive anyway,why bother exercising and eating right?",then you're going to think yourself into giving up,and not care for yourself,which could lead to health problems and an early grave.


7665bkg said:


> i think this person is saying we are going to destroy ourselves; just by thinking it so.


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## morgentaler (Nov 11, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> If the Christians understand their holy book correctly, Warrior Jesus is about to show up on the scene and kick some royal ass.


"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Matthew16:28

So there are either immortals running about in the world who could actually talk to followers about knowing Jesus in person - and don't.

Or the whole damn bunch missed the Jesus boat and are just wanking to their piety.


OR it's all made up.

Hmmm.


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## jfgordon1 (Nov 11, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Matthew16:28
> 
> So there are either immortals running about in the world who could actually talk to followers about knowing Jesus in person - and don't.
> 
> ...


haha

i tried to give u rep for that... cracked my shit UP


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 11, 2009)

Big reward for anyone with the wherewithal to explain the disparity in the many generations of time between the life and death of Jesus and the first written Christian holy words?

Alien time warp?

How much of your great-grandparents lives do you know?

What if they spoke to Jesus?


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## morgentaler (Nov 11, 2009)

My grandfather spoke to him all the time.

"Jesus Christ, that hurt!" when hammering his thumb.
"Jesus Christ, turn down that noise!" when hearing loud music or TV.
"Jesus Christ, I'm trying to sleep."

Apparently Jesus is an inconsiderate bastard who made my grandfather's life very unpleasant.


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## CrackerJax (Nov 11, 2009)

*Tiberius: No investigations in Jesus Christ 'Advanced Crucifixion Techniques' case*

July 20, 2009, 10:25AM

ROME (April 28, 1) -- Emperor Tiberius Caesar Augustus has announced there will be no investigations into the purported torture and crucifixion of convicted heretic and enemy of the state Jesus Christ. In a statement from the Emperor's office, Tiberius stated that Christ's crucifixion did not meet the empire's definition of torture, and that it was time for Roman's to begin focusing on the future.
"As a general view, I think that we should be looking forward and not backwards," said Tiberius. "I do worry about this getting so politicized that we cannot function effectively and it hampers our ability to carry out critical national security operations."

The crucifixion had raised the hackles of many Roman civil liberty leaders, who believed that Christ was punished for expressing his personal religious views and did not threaten national security. Also, many believe that the treatment of Christ went much too far and bordered on evil.
"Jesus Christ was beaten, tortured and ultimately murdered by an evil group of people that believed the laws did not apply to them," wrote the liberal organization MoveOnius Orgius. "So far there's been no accountability for the architects of Tiberius' torture program. We need a full investigation and real consequences for those responsible - it's the only way to keep this from happening again."
But Tiberius blanched at this suggestion, mockingly calling Christ the "King of the Jews," and pointing out that his legal team of Johnius Yooius and Jaius Bybeeius had cleared the so-called "Advanced Crucifixion Techniques" as legal and not against international law. 
"Because specific intent is an element of the offense, the absence of specific intent negates the charge of torture. ... We have further found that if a defendant acts with the good faith belief that his actions will not cause such suffering, he has not acted with specific intent," wrote Bybeeius.
Tiberius added that no charges will be brought against judges Sanhedrin, Pontius Pilate, and Herod Antipas, or anyone involved in the beating and ultimate crucifixion of Christ.
"For those who carried out some of these operations within the four corners of legal opinions or guidance that had been provided from Roman legal scholars, I do not think it's appropriate for them to be prosecuted," said Tiberius.
Many scribes immediately jumped forward to defend the Emperor's decision. "Some things in life need to be mysterious," Pegius Nouninus wrote. "Sometimes you need to just keep walking." 
"The Advanced Crucifixion Techniques memos represented a deliberate, and internally well-debated, policy decision, made in the proper places - the Emperor's Palace, the intelligence agencies and the Justice Department - by the proper officials," wrote respected scribe Davidius Broderius. "That way, inevitably, lies endless political warfare. It would set the precedent for turning all future policy disagreements into political or criminal vendettas. That way lies untold bitterness - and injustice."
One Foxius Newsius Scribe, Seaniues Hannitius has even offered to allow himself to be crucified for charity to show that the practice is "little more than a college prank."
For his part, Tiberius pointed out that the majority of Romans approved of Advanced Crucifixion Techniques, especially in cases with heretics such as Christ who posed existential threats to the empire. And Tiberius noted that Romans were still in peril from its enemies.
"There is still an enemy out there who wants to attack Rome and Romans," Tiberius said. "We must not allow our resolve to weaken. We must take the fight to them, lest the response come in the form of scriptures, flaming arrows and far-flung boulders."


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