# Religion Poisons Everything



## ThaDutchieCouple (Oct 31, 2009)

*Hi everyone 

If you all havnt relized already, im an athiest. And i dont come by it lighty. I think about it pretty much everyday, its hard not too, if God exists and I choose to be an atheist, then that means when i die I am deliberately choosing torture for eternety, when the other option is to live forever in paradise, hevean. 

Ofcourse i wish there was an all-knowing powerfull caring and loving creator that loves me, knows my path in life ( and every other 6 billion of us). But you have to know when to tell fact from fiction and this myth clearly. I know alot of people believe in god because they are affraid of death(like most of us are)

I dont know how people can believe all of these lies. I mean, if all the evidence you has is a man-written bible, i dont understand why im destined for hell just for not having faith and turning my life over to be a follower of god. I mean, its just common knowledge not to believe, i think. But clearly many think other wise.

*[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva]* (Jeremiah 32:17) Ah Lord GOD! You have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm, nothing is too hard for you.

If god really has power on the world, why do we face poverty, murder, war, flesh eating diseases, cancer, global warming, child abuse, dictatorship, racism and sexism, slavery.. the list goes on and on. 
Why havnt any of these critical issues changed? Why hasnt god saved any of them?
You say you can talk to the guy, so i'd be interested to hear you think.

I could be wrong, but its my take on it all.

I always love a good debate, dont worry i dont bite 
**

* [/FONT]


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## DJBoxhouse (Oct 31, 2009)

Yes, religion IS a poison. One that can only spread through sharing, rather than that could we say it's a transmitted disease of sorts?
I don't mind the sharing point as giving somebody enlightenment towards a particular way of thought, but this isn't typically so.
Keep it off of me and we have no qualms. Now, bring it to me as a philosophy, and we my friend, can talk for hours. Happily so.


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## Spittn4cash (Oct 31, 2009)

I wouldnt call religion "poison" I would just call it bullshit


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## Buddreams (Oct 31, 2009)

Spittn4cash said:


> I wouldnt call religion "poison" I would just call it bullshit


e-ligion? thats a new one!


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## morgentaler (Oct 31, 2009)

So I know this guy who has two kids. A boy and a girl. He didn't want two at first, but then he realized he didn't want his son to grow up alone so he gave him a sister.
He really loved the kids, so he built them an awesome treehouse in the backyard. It had running water, windows, flower boxes with big lush plants, a small LCD TV, and there was even a dumbwaiter so the kids could bring the pets up into the treehouse with them.
The kids absolutely loved it.
He was pretty proud of the whole setup, and told them that as long as they stayed away from his prized fig tree they could spend as much time in the treehouse as they wanted.
But the sister snagged a fig one day, and you know how kids are. When dad saw that one of the figs had been yanked off his prize winning tree, she made up some story about how something else came along and snacked on the fig.

Dude was PISSED. He dragged both kids out in the yard. Screamed at them. Beat the shit out of them. And told them to get out of his house and never come back.

They were both crying and really upset. They didn't really get what was going on. They asked "But Daddy, what are we going to do?"

In anger he shouted, "I don't care. Go fuck yourselves. Just get out of my sight."

And then he gave her cancer, and him syphilis.

But it's okay, because he loved them.

Right?


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## ThaDutchieCouple (Oct 31, 2009)

Buddreams said:


> e-ligion? thats a new one!



obviously i meant religion, i dont know how to edit titles!


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## DJBoxhouse (Oct 31, 2009)

No no ThaDutchie, you have to be real upset about making that small typo, it's reeaal important. Why else would Buddreams have specifically referenced the typo?

Seriously though, future reference, it's nice if you can watch out for those things but it doesn't matter if you make mistakes, the point you were making was horribly obvious, so the meaning got across - what other use is there for language but to convey meaning?


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## undertheice (Oct 31, 2009)

my two oldest and dearest friends in this world are _very_ christian. they grew up, as did i, surrounded by the happenings of the sixties and seventies. free-wheeling sex and drugs and rock and roll, nothing too far over the line to give at least a couple of tries, twenty-four hour a day, party til the cows come home and then some sort of folks, as were we all back then or so it now seems. they returned to their childhood faith after those years of excess. after watching friends and loved ones come to untimely ends, visiting too many graves, and, finding no solace in the secular, they returned to familiar traditions. they bowed before a master greater than any earthbound patriarch, placed themselves at the mercy of a judgment greater than that of any mortal arbiter, and they were happy to do so.

these two dear friends pray for me each and every day. even though they know my atheism is born of a disgust for the concept of a god that would condone suffering and that i would despise their god if he truly existed, they pray for me. each time i see them and the conversation rolls around to the topic of religion, they assure me that i am not damned. even though i would accept damnation with a smile, they declare with unfeigned certainty that there is a place for me among the saved. they firmly believe that my good works and the charity in my heart are enough to grant me that passage and to save me from an eternal doom. this is the nature of their faith. this is what religion has done.

my paternal grandfather was a baptist minister, a missionary that traveled the world is service to his god. he devoted his life to that service, even at the expense of family and friends. he traveled the globe, meeting with other movers and shakers of various religions, and sought to ease suffering wherever he found it. he helped to feed the hungry, to give warmth and shelter to the needy and never asked for a thing in return. he helped to develop organizations which still exist today, devoted to aiding those who cannot help themselves. he met with men like mohandas gandhi and albert schweitzer, searching for the means to heal the sick and injured and feed the starving at home and in places you and i have hardly even heard of. he did all this because it was right, because it was the christian thing to do.

my grandfather's greatest sin was that he was a dyed in the wool homophobe. brought up in a time when such things were simply not talked about, he saw homosexuality as among the greatest of sins and, believing in the indoctrination of the times, he considered homosexuals to be dangerous to the fabric of society. he despised the practice and the very concept of what he saw as a crime against nature and god, but when a homosexual walked up to him and asked for his help, he did not falter. in the face of what he knew as great evil, he gave what was needed and offered a prayer as well because it was right. he put aside his fear and his loathing because it was the christian thing to do.

as i have previously stated, i am an atheist. i have never had real faith and don't even know what that's like, so you know i don't bring up these people in an attempt at conversion. i despise the hypocrite that uses the trappings of religion to gain power and prestige and would spit in the face of this god that demands obedience but offers so much suffering and despair, without so much as a word to assure the faithful of his interest in our affairs. i bring up these people to remind us that religion is not only about power and domination. it is also about charity and taking care of the world around you. religion is not made up just of popes and televangelist and blind buffoons, meekly following the words of an ancient and jealous god. it is also made up of people who honestly care and who are devoted to man's higher instincts. we atheists tend to paint the religious with a broad brush, labeling them all as deluded crusaders and unthinking zealots or hypocritical oafs and lying scoundrels. the claim that religion poisons everything is as hypocritical as a pedophilic priest. it is man's baser instincts that are the poison, defiling even our highest ambitions and most generous endeavors.


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## Higher Education (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree with most of you that organized religion is a poison. It seems to deter and hurt more people than it brings and helps. However, atheists always confuse me when they ask "If God exists, and is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, then why is there pain and suffering in the world?" As thedutchiecouple said it, 

*If god really has power on the world, why do we face poverty, murder, war, flesh eating diseases, cancer, global warming, child abuse, dictatorship, racism and sexism, slavery.. the list goes on and on. 
Why havnt any of these critical issues changed? Why hasnt god saved any of them?*


I don't agree with the logistical implications of this type of question. It assumes that God views love in the same context as the person, most of the time an atheist, asking the question. How can one judge an omniscience God with any other set of knowledge besides an omniscient one unless God reveals himself unto that person? Furthermore, if we cannot do this, because we definately cannot, then how can we justify assigning expectations to God about how he should run the world if we are not omniscient ourselves?

Simply put, if love was a box of crayons, then what makes your box of crayons better than God's? They're not, he has a superior brand name and more colors. Whatever shades and colors he uses in the coloring book, this big place we call the world, are the best. That's not to say he drew murderers and and deadly diseases with his crayons. He used his crayons to allow his characters in his coloring book to make their own choices. He gave them choice, or free will. Whatever people do with that free will is up to them. How can one have love without choice anyways? God allows us to chose to follow him or not. If we want to be bad we can. If we want to use or crayons instead of his, we can, but the picture won't be as pretty as it would if we allowed him to color it. 


Don't most responsible people, even if reluctantly, allow their kids to drive a car once they reach an appropriate age? Don't those people also realize that their kids could be killed in an instant in an accident? Don't they love their kids? Using the logic of the original question I responded to, no, they don't. That's obviously not true though, they do love their kids. They are allowing them to take the risk of being in an accident to go hang out with friends or to get places faster in a car. They are giving them a choice, or allowing them to use their will freely, hence the term "free will".


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## morgentaler (Nov 1, 2009)

It's a bucket full of insight but it still has a hole in it.

Assuming you mean the Christian "God", as they have co-opted the term and capitalized it to make it their own and none others, your interpretation of his love leaves out one critical point.

God directly kills millions in the bible. This is not human free will in action. This is petty, vengeful, murder by a creature worshipped by the fearful.

Whatever the motivation, should a creature like that exist it does not deserve worship. It should be reviled, hunted, and killed as a threat.

But fortunately it's no more than a fairy tale used to control people and money.


If you're referring to a non-theistic deity, there is no doctrine to base it on and people can just make it up as they go along. But then you may be worshiping the equivalent of a procedural algorithm that generates universes from pure math. That would actually be kind of cool, but an algorithm doesn't care if you love it or not, and we are just a tiny speck in a very large universe.


With no evidence to support them, man creates gods whose concerns are banal and reek of the taint of small minded, racist, and misogynistic desert tribes of millennia ago. 

If Darwin wasn't enough to cast off the charade of literal biblical creationism, the discovery of bacteria and viruses should have laid waste to religion all over the world. Sickness and death are no longer the realm of demons and sin, but infection and amplification.

Strip away the taint of religions that deny scientific advancement, and you find that there really is no controversy over evolution, plate geology, or the laws of thermodynamics.

There is the simple fact that man is not the dominant life form on this planet. Bacteria are. 

If there are gods watching this world, and they have chosen a race that can adapt, survive, and prosper longer than any other, it is not us.
We're just along for the ride.


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## Higher Education (Nov 1, 2009)

I love you Morgan, i'm going to try to patch the hole, but forgive me for errors because I am high and tired. I'll quote your individual arguments. I should also prerequisite that I am a Christian, but I ascribed to Intelligent Design before I was so. 


"Assuming you mean the Christian "God", as they have co-opted the term and capitalized it to make it their own and none others, your interpretation of his love leaves out one critical point.

God directly kills millions in the bible. This is not human free will in action. This is petty, vengeful, murder by a creature worshipped by the fearful.

Whatever the motivation, should a creature like that exist it does not deserve worship. It should be reviled, hunted, and killed as a threat."


To address the events you refer in the Bible, as a whole, I will use the Bible. I refer you to Romans Chapter 1.


18.For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 
19.because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 
20.For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 
21.For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 

These people exercised their free will(s) by ignoring evidence that had been presented to them. Their society was full of super-natural events. The probality of them occuring randomly is infinitesimal. They had supernatural events and ignored it as proof of a God. Now we have science, and ignore it as proof of a God. I will elaborate in my next point, as it will tie into some of your comments.


"If you're referring to a non-theistic deity, there is no doctrine to base it on and people can just make it up as they go along. But then you may be worshiping the equivalent of a procedural algorithm that generates universes from pure math. That would actually be kind of cool, but an algorithm doesn't care if you love it or not, and we are just a tiny speck in a very large universe.


With no evidence to support them, man creates gods whose concerns are banal and reek of the taint of small minded, racist, and misogynistic desert tribes of millennia ago. 

If Darwin wasn't enough to cast off the charade of literal biblical creationism, the discovery of bacteria and viruses should have laid waste to religion all over the world. Sickness and death are no longer the realm of demons and sin, but infection and amplification.

Strip away the taint of religions that deny scientific advancement, and you find that there really is no controversy over evolution, plate geology, or the laws of thermodynamics."


If there was a non-theistic diety or God, he, she, or it would be more probable than what you seem to be suggesting. You mentioned evolution, so I take it you believe in the Big Bang. You also mentioned thermodynamics. Can't the first law of the thermodynamics be stated as such "The increase in the internal energy of a system is equal to the amount of energy added by heating the system, minus the amount lost as a result of the work done by the system on its surroundings."? 

Doesn't this simply mean that energy can be transformed from one form to another but never created or destroyed? Didn't Einstein conclude that energy is equivalent to mass times light squared? Doesn't this mean mass must be equal to energy divided by the speed of light squared? If so, then how could any of the mass have come into existence at the beginning of the big bang if there was no energy? It couldn't. That leaves us two choice. We must either lie to ourselves and say that the energy came from no where and break our own law, or more logically, we could say a deity input that energy into the system. That doesn't tell you where the deity came from, but a God creating energy is more logical than energy created by nothing. That just sounds silly.

Also consider the strong nuclear force since we're being scientific. You expect me to believe the protons and neutrons are held together perfectly because of chance? I don't that's a wise thing to believe in because the universe only had one chance at making it perfect in the beginning. If the strong nuclear force was only a few more micronewtons stronger, then neutrons and protons would collide making all other atoms besides hydrogen impossible to exist. Without carbon, you and I wouldn't be typing these arguments. If the strong nuclear force was a few micronewtons weaker, then atoms would fall apart and newtonian objects couldn't exist.

To speak of Darwin, out of the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of species we know of, we have never seen evolution in progress, ever. We see adaption everyday, bird beak lengths vary based on diets, horses get smaller or larger depending on how their bred. These are variations within DNA, but not actual mutations as macro evolution suggests to have happened. Why haven't we seen these mutations? We even tried to replicate them in fruit flies, their DNA did mutate, but not one single time was the mutations beneficial. That's not evolution, sounds more like a birth defect or cancer. If the discovery of bacterias and viruses were suppose to make the idea of God crumple, then why didn't it? Why is Evolution still taught as a theory and not as fact? I don't think it's religion denying scientific advancement, I think it's people misinterpreting and sometimes fabricating evidence (such as the most recent and perhaps the most infamous evolution frauds was committed in China and published in 1999 in the journal National Geographic 196:98-107, November 1999. Dinosaur bones were put together with the bones of a newer species of bird and they tried to pass it off as a very important new evolutionary intermediate.) to deny a deity so they don't have reprocussions for their actions.


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## morgentaler (Nov 1, 2009)

Could you use formatting please?


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## OregonMeds (Nov 1, 2009)

undertheice said:


> ___clip___
> 
> religion is not made up just of popes and televangelist and blind buffoons, meekly following the words of an ancient and jealous god. it is also made up of people who honestly care and who are devoted to man's higher instincts. we atheists tend to paint the religious with a broad brush, labeling them all as deluded crusaders and unthinking zealots or hypocritical oafs and lying scoundrels. the claim that religion poisons everything is as hypocritical as a pedophilic priest. it is man's baser instincts that are the poison, defiling even our highest ambitions and most generous endeavors.


I agree with you up to saying religion isn't a poison or trying to say that just because religious organizations do some good that therefore relgion is a good thing. It isn't.

There would still be good people doing the same good things without religion, it's in their nature to do those things they are just those type of people.

Strip religion away and we wouldn't loose anything good. You as an athiest know it doesn't take some phony book to tell you how to be a decent person, a religion wouldn't make you any better of a person if you adopted it.

btw I'm not just an athiest I'm a bisexual male so religion never would have fit me well. So I'm angry and I'm coming to corrupt all religious peoples children and turn them gay. 

Not really, I'll just try to convince them not to hate and to question the bible... Same thing I guess.


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## morgentaler (Nov 1, 2009)

Higher Education said:


> These people exercised their free will(s) by ignoring evidence that had been presented to them. Their society was full of super-natural events. The probality of them occuring randomly is infinitesimal. They had supernatural events and ignored it as proof of a God. Now we have science, and ignore it as proof of a God. I will elaborate in my next point, as it will tie into some of your comments.


You completely dodged the point that God murdering all those people was not an act of human free will.

Of course no one really died, but if the bible wasn't a work of fiction then they must be mass murders by a loving god, however you choose to define love.

You are also treating the bible as a historical document. It is not. It is a religious text.




> how could any of the mass have come into existence at the beginning of the big bang if there was no energy? It couldn't.


You're operating under the assumption that this universe came from nothing. The big bang is merely an explanation for how this universe formed, but it does not limit that which can occur outside the system. To assume "God" simply because you don't have the answers is to embrace ignorance.

People used to belief that dirty clothing or piles of moldy grain spontaneously generated mice.
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/Bio114/spontgen.htm




> That leaves us two choice. We must either lie to ourselves and say that the energy came from no where and break our own law, or more logically, we could say a deity input that energy into the system.


1. You assume a closed system. 
2. "God Did It!" is not an acceptable answer without proof. Admitting one does not yet have the answer to a problem and working toward it is the proper methodology. Claiming a deity performed an act without substantiating proof is fraud. *The bible is not proof.




> That doesn't tell you where the deity came from, but a God creating energy is more logical than energy created by nothing. That just sounds silly.


Yes it sounds terribly silly that you would consider God logical.
What you might consider "nothing" can be the equilibrium of two states of charge, positive and negative arriving at a zero sum.
And once again you make assumptions about the origin of the universe. Where do you get your information? The people with the best tools to see back into the depths of time still don't have access to that information yet.
And you can just pull it out of your head like that?



> Also consider the strong nuclear force since we're being scientific. You expect me to believe the protons and neutrons are held together perfectly because of chance?


No I don't. Because they are not.



> I don't that's a wise thing to believe in because the universe only had one chance at making it perfect in the beginning.


What is your definition of perfect, and what qualfications do you have to define a perfect universe?



> If the strong nuclear force was only a few more micronewtons stronger, then neutrons and protons would collide making all other atoms besides hydrogen impossible to exist. Without carbon, you and I wouldn't be typing these arguments. If the strong nuclear force was a few micronewtons weaker, then atoms would fall apart and newtonian objects couldn't exist.


When speaking of probabilities of something that already exists, the probability of such a thing occurring is 1.




> To speak of Darwin, out of the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of species we know of, we have never seen evolution in progress, ever.


Would you care to retract that statement?

The 20 year E. coli experiment by Richard Lenski observed over 20,000 generations of E. coli, archived at 75 generation steps, and shows demonstrable evolution.

https://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/

Bacteria evolved to eat Nylon, which did not exist until the last century:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon-eating_bacteria

There has been observed speciation in many types of plants, and short-lifespan creatures such as _Rhagoletis pomonella_.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_maggot

Additionally look into Ring Species to see how genetic distribution over long distances results in short range interbreeding ability, but long range inability as genetic drift occurs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species



> These are variations within DNA, but not actual mutations as macro evolution suggests to have happened.


I have 2 animals with specific genetic mutations in a cage 3 feet from me.
Male humans average around 150 mutations per generation. Apply that to hundreds of thousands of generations and you will find a significantly different organism.
Take a full set of Encyclopedia Britannica's and change 150 letters each second for the next 100,000 seconds. Then read one of the articles. That is evolution in action.



> but not one single time was the mutations beneficial


Patently false. See above.
Additionally, the random nature of mutations will result in negative, neutral, and positive outcomes.
A mutation which kills off the individual on their 50th birthday will persist in offspring until eliminated by sexual selection of genes or point mutation. Since the individual is beyond reproductive age this lethal gene does not interfere with reproductive fitness, the "fittest" of Darwin's mechanism.




> Why is Evolution still taught as a theory and not as fact?


Another example of a creationist trying to discount something because their definition of the word is "guess" while science has a very different interpretation.

A scientific theory is arrived at through several stages. An observation is made, and a hypothesis is formed. From the hypothesis experiments are designed. The experiments are performed and the evidence is collected. If any part of the experimentation process is found to be falsifiable, eg. removing an element of the experiment does not change the outcome, then the experiment is revisited until it is no longer falsifiable. With sufficient evidence you may then present this information as a theory.

If you don't have much regard for theories you can just float off into space now, as we only have a theory of gravity as well.

We have the fact of gravity.
We have the fact of evolution.

edit: Just in case you try to use the "Law of Gravity" here, a law refers to a consistency of predicted state but does not entail an explanation. You can know that what goes up must come down, but not know why. This falls under the purview of laws.



> Dinosaur bones were put together with the bones of a newer species of bird and they tried to pass it off as a very important new evolutionary intermediate.) to deny a deity so they don't have reprocussions for their actions.


Scientific frauds don't last long, because there is continued inquiry.
If religion tolerated inquiry there would be no religion, hence the whole Adam and Eve fable intimating that seeking knowledge is wrong.

Mitochondrial DNA and the study of Endogenous Retroviruses confirm the main talking points of natural selection. Darwin was not aware of genetics, nor the specificity of how the traits were passed on, but his theory of natural selection has borne out under close scrutiny by whole fields that couldn't exist if he was wrong.

Genetics is not a field where the bible can provide any insight.


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## morgentaler (Nov 1, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> So I'm angry and I'm coming to corrupt all religious peoples children and turn them gay.


I don't think you have to. Have you looked at the Republicans lately?


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## morgentaler (Nov 1, 2009)

Why is it that the ones arguing for God never know how to use the editor?
Do we need to add an appendix to the bible on internet technology?

Might as well get these in before the "no transitional fossils" bit gets thrown out.
It gets really annoying when creationist views of biology also appear to have stopped reading any discoveries published after 1850.

One of the coolest ones recently.
_Darwinopterus modularis_
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/10/darwinopterus_and_mosaic_modul.php

Science also makes changes to the records of how some species have evolved as better methods than pure phenotypic appraisal become available.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v458/n7236/abs/nature07776.html
What may have seemed obvious from mere visual appraisals changes with additional genetic materials and fossils and science updates accordingly.

You may notice that the bible still indicatees that sickness is caused by demons and sin.
I prefer to get my education from science and not from fairy tales.

Oh, and don't waste your time quoting Behe and the flagella as an example of irreducible complexity. He was quite embarrassed when it was shown that you could remove 80 percent of the components of the flagella and it still had functionality for another purpose, an effective pump.

Intelligent Design is not Science.


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## ThaDutchieCouple (Nov 1, 2009)

undertheice said:


> my two oldest and dearest friends in this world are _very_ christian. they grew up, as did i, surrounded by the happenings of the sixties and seventies. free-wheeling sex and drugs and rock and roll, nothing too far over the line to give at least a couple of tries, twenty-four hour a day, party til the cows come home and then some sort of folks, as were we all back then or so it now seems. they returned to their childhood faith after those years of excess. after watching friends and loved ones come to untimely ends, visiting too many graves, and, finding no solace in the secular, they returned to familiar traditions. they bowed before a master greater than any earthbound patriarch, placed themselves at the mercy of a judgment greater than that of any mortal arbiter, and they were happy to do so.
> 
> these two dear friends pray for me each and every day. even though they know my atheism is born of a disgust for the concept of a god that would condone suffering and that i would despise their god if he truly existed, they pray for me. each time i see them and the conversation rolls around to the topic of religion, they assure me that i am not damned. even though i would accept damnation with a smile, they declare with unfeigned certainty that there is a place for me among the saved. they firmly believe that my good works and the charity in my heart are enough to grant me that passage and to save me from an eternal doom. this is the nature of their faith. this is what religion has done.
> 
> ...


*I too have loved ones who are very christian. The entire side of my fathers consist of a great great, great, and grandfather who were all preists, my uncle and my father who does spirtitual therapy,(going into past lives with others and using crystals and cards)and the rest just go to church every sunday and are devote christians. so i know all about faith from those people influencing me since i was born. It worked for awhile, and i believed in something more than just nothing. Long story short i even asked my father where was god? when we were in an airplane in the clouds. I think his response was he was in your heart? something along that line. But when i became older church was nothing but a bore that i didnt pay attention to, so i questioned my faith and desided not to care about religion, and see if my life became worse or better. Nothing changed, i was the same. So that answered many questions! My family says they pray for me every day aswell, which ofcourse cant be bad, but i know isnt going to save me or answer any problems i have unfortunatly. I really wished it worked like that.
Everyone knows i despise organized religion and Jesus Junkies, but in the end... i really dont think im wrong, so ill gve them 20 years to figure out Jesus isnt coming to save them!

* 


Higher Education said:


> I agree with most of you that organized religion is a poison. It seems to deter and hurt more people than it brings and helps. However, atheists always confuse me when they ask "If God exists, and is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, then why is there pain and suffering in the world?" As thedutchiecouple said it,
> 
> *If god really has power on the world, why do we face poverty, murder, war, flesh eating diseases, cancer, global warming, child abuse, dictatorship, racism and sexism, slavery.. the list goes on and on.
> Why havnt any of these critical issues changed? Why hasnt god saved any of them?*
> ...


*
I see where your coming from, and i understand people have free will, but then why do people still pray if its obvious god just dosnt have power when it comes to a persons choice or action on the earth. If someone had a gun, and he wanted to shoot your best friend in the head, and your at home praying for their well being, what can god do? It seems like your saying he cant do anything. Which is true... so whats the point of prayer?*


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 1, 2009)

I cannot understand how the religion of atheism cannot exist.

Religion= my system of thought and practices that gives meaning to my experiences through reference to my understanding of ultimate truth.

Thoughts become things.

edit:

Little things become big things.

Some things include other things, and everything quickly becomes entangled.

Hippie hint: entangled is a physics term.

Watch the parallel universes episode of The Universe for a visualization.


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## undertheice (Nov 1, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> There would still be good people doing the same good things without religion, it's in their nature to do those things they are just those type of people.


not all religious people who do good works would be so inclined without the impetus of their faith. the will to do good may exist within us all, but sometimes it takes an outside force to bring it to the fore. for many people, religion is that lightning rod.

it's easy to look around yourself and, seeing the evil that men do, get caught up in that malevolence. the herd instinct is strong in many people and they become followers far too easily. for some, the messages within religious dogma speak to and bring out their more positive aspects. in a world where corruption is seen as almost the norm and we have the worst of humanity splashed across ever headline, some need that extra push to see what good we are capable of and follow a better path. 

of course that lightning rod can attract the bad as well as the good. the concept of being among the chosen can feed the ego and create a false sense of superiority, but you have to ask whether these people would be any different without the backing of their faith. those who can pervert the positive messages within the philosophies of most religions are capable of using almost anything to justify their agendas.


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## ThaDutchieCouple (Nov 1, 2009)

''The school, *Victory Christian Academy*, was an all-female fundamentalist boot camp surrounded by a ten-foot high barbed wire fence. The girls? &#8211; Everyone from atheists, to drug addicts, to lesbians in trouble with the Lord. When the girls arrived, many kicking and screaming, they were taken to the &#8220;Get Right Room&#8221;, a pitch-black room half the size of a walk-in closet, where Jerry Falwell sermons were blasted over the stereo. Mike Palmer, the school&#8217;s Dean, locked people in the G.R. Room for as short as hours to as long as seven days. The rules at Victory? No pants, no phone calls to parents for three months, and no outside visitors. In short, the girls at Victory were caged like animals.''

Going to Victory Christian Academy, or any christian boot camp would be my personal hell


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## Brazko (Nov 1, 2009)

Entangled..,

I don't understand why they think War, Rape, Murder, Greed, Misogny, Racism, and on and on to ad nauseaum, is going to disappear when Religion disappears, Or maybe just the Christian God, who is responsible for bringing these things into existence and will disappear once we cease to imaging God to exist, 

Entangled...,

Then after the Christian God disappears, or which he doesn't really exist at all.., Then those who believed will be finally awakened to the gloriousness of truth that the non-believers had all the time., Not quite like the believers had before.., Then Man will know he answers to nothing but Man, and knowing only man's Rule and Law exist, then we can finally love and Help one another because we don't have the interference of an make believe God to decide what is moral, because we already do, Religion has been the poison of Man.., Not Man's on Deeds.., 


Entangled..., 

- Maybe the Believers and Non-Believers are Just holding to tightly to being - Entangled.., Maybe when they learn to let go, they will become Detangled.., 

Nobody likes to fall in an Empty Void, it's Scary, It's Fear of the unknown..., The Mind is afraid of the Void it will fall In.., But there is no Void, The Mind will Expand till there is No Void left..., an Instantly it will become the Void.., See, still no Fear!! 


Entangled...,

? How can you visit a white Room.., be at Peace, When you despise and Hate? Peace has no Room for held Emotions? I'm just wondering, that's all.., that was directed at my meditation Guru's who are enlightened in the Ways of Meditation, but can't conquer their Hate.., Please, Teach me to hold on to Hatred, so that I too may be Enlightened.., Sifu


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## DEXTER MORGAN (Nov 1, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Entangled..,
> 
> I don't understand why they think War, Rape, Murder, Greed, Misogny, Racism, and on and on to ad nauseaum, is going to disappear when Religion disappears, Or maybe just the Christian God, who is responsible for bringing these things into existence and will disappear once we cease to imaging God to exist,
> 
> ...


Excellent post Brazko. And you're right, rape, murder, greed, racism etc will NOT disapear. Atheists who blame religion for bad things are very ignorant and have no place in an intellegent conversation. I am an atheist but I can clearly see that churches are doing no harm to anyone. Even on this website its the atheists who are constantly attacking other people. And you brought up another good point too.... Why the fuck do people get so mad at things they dont even believe in?? Thats like me sitting around hating on Santa Claus. Maybe its denial, putting others down in order to feel better about themselves?


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## Brazko (Nov 1, 2009)

Well, if I have learned anything from an Atheist on Here.. mainly speaking of Ice and yourself.., is that Atheist are not all Brainwashed on here, just like all Theist are not.. including the Real World as well.,, I just might consider calling myself an Atheist again., but the term inherently won't stick, because I do believe..., and my Mind expands to far for Walls., Thanks for the Comment, and thanks for Enlightening me from the bewilderment that all Atheist on here were Ignorant... the both of You, 

I believe you understand the Denial of some Atheist, like I understand the Denial of Some Theist..


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## undertheice (Nov 1, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Well, if I have learned anything from an Atheist on Here.. mainly speaking of Ice and yourself.., is that Atheist are not all Brainwashed on here, just like all Theist are not.....


like any other schism, there are fanatics on both sides of the debate, as well as the more rational proponents. any attempt to _force_ a belief system on others is doomed to failure and only causes the rift to widen. just as in politics, there are leaders, there are followers and then there are those that only try to understand. things like the secular assault on christmas and the various attempts to ban religious icons from public view are the work of fanatics, bent on forcing their ideals onto as many others as possible and show atheism in the unkindest of lights. on the other side of that coin are folks like westboro baptist and jihadists, heaping abuse and/or death on anyone who won't accept their narrow view of reality. though i've always had a problem with religion (i actually made the jump from considering myself an agnostic to full blown atheist at christmas eve services) and tend to consider religion a bit childish, i just can't understand the outright hatred for those with faith that i so often see in nonbelievers.


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## Brazko (Nov 1, 2009)

undertheice said:


> like any other schism, there are fanatics on both sides of the debate, as well as the more rational proponents. any attempt to _force_ a belief system on others is doomed to failure and only causes the rift to widen. just as in politics, there are leaders, there are followers and then there are those that only try to understand. things like the secular assault on christmas and the various attempts to ban religious icons from public view are the work of fanatics, bent on forcing their ideals onto as many others as possible and show atheism in the unkindest of lights. on the other side of that coin are folks like westboro baptist and jihadists, heaping abuse and/or death on anyone who won't accept their narrow view of reality. though i've always had a problem with religion (i actually made the jump from considering myself an agnostic to full blown atheist at christmas eve services) and tend to consider religion a bit childish, i just can't understand the outright hatred for those with faith that i so often see in nonbelievers.


I don't understand either.., I called myself a Christian, because I was raised Christian and even though, I know longer follow the overall general message taught in Christainity.., It is stll the Overall truth of my Interpretation of the sometimes not so Obvious messages (and purposedly hidden, to be discovered) of Man and the Universe explained within the texts of Christanity (the Bible)... but like you I can no longer claim to be called a Christian because Christians do not collectively and generally exhibit a nature that is Christ like.. I Am a believer in the Christ that resides within all of Us, as Well as the Many other Truths that are held worldwide.., Nobody or No one thing get's it Right.., It's opening yourself to all that is True, that permits One to get it Right!! 

Realization comes in the Truth of Realizing we Are all Humans., Minus the RElationship, Minus the Belief, Minus the Cause.., WE are all still Human.., We will advance only so far as to Which All Humans will Advance...


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## Brazko (Nov 1, 2009)

hmmmmm..., after dealing with Hippie, I can't say I know what that Truth is anymore.., Guess I'll just have to remain Open!!


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## ThaDutchieCouple (Nov 1, 2009)

DEXTER MORGAN said:


> Excellent post Brazko. And you're right, rape, murder, greed, racism etc will NOT disapear. Atheists who blame religion for bad things are very ignorant and have no place in an intellegent conversation. I am an atheist but I can clearly see that churches are doing no harm to anyone. Even on this website its the atheists who are constantly attacking other people. And you brought up another good point too.... Why the fuck do people get so mad at things they dont even believe in?? Thats like me sitting around hating on Santa Claus. Maybe its denial, putting others down in order to feel better about themselves?


*I don't blame religious people for the bad things being done on the earth. I blame them for wasting time and money on an organization that has made no improvement (in my opinion worsened) in the world except give a fake comfort to people. Imagine the billions of dollars being wasted on building big elaborate churches, and all the 'necessities' that come along with it. When there are innocent children dying from starvation around the globe. I could find many places to put all that money to good use. 
Republican Governor of Louisiana Bobby Jindal, used $45,000 of tax payer money to visit and speak at churches. $1,200 an hour to operate which adds up to about $45,000 for five months of church visits. That is appalling. I think its time to stand up against the money hungry, good for nothing waste, and start putting our time, money, and effort into things that actually exists.*


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## OregonMeds (Nov 1, 2009)

Athiests don't hate religious people in general just the religions. Unless you're talking about some slick willy preacher with a rolex or whatever then yes I do hate them personally and for very very good reason.


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## Brazko (Nov 1, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> Athiests don't hate religious people in general just the religions. Unless you're talking about some slick willy preacher with a rolex or whatever then yes I do hate them personally and for very very good reason.


Guess What? I do Too.., but it's not Religion I hate.., REligion would be justified to not getting taxed if what it stood for was just.. but Guess What? Religion does stand for what is Just.. It is Marketed Religion that is Corrupt.., Like any Other extravagant Business.., that puts aside the need for everyone, with the need for only self.., I believe in helping youself to help others.. Not helping yourself to Others to help yourself.., Religious or Not, it's the SAme thing. If you want to get rid of that Religious type behaviour, you have to search deeper than religion being at fault.. REligion isn't Bad.. People are Bad and they do exist.. and all People are subject to being Manipulated.. Religious or Not.., and as I said before religion (all of them) don't get it all right, but the intent and direction in my opinion is right.., that still doesn't make it evil/bad because it is not a system of complete Rightousness as interpreted by whomever.., It can be better understood if we understood nothing man creates as an all abiding law or rule is subject to error... if No error, then nothing to progress to... If No error, nothing to evolve to, or from.. If no Error, we are no longer Human, but gods,, but there is an Error,,, we B Human

the Blame game is only a game of Denial.., The choice of Denial is the game of Ignorance.. The Game of Ignorance is the Life of Humans.., 

God, I can't wait to be in your shoes!! No, Really...,

If you stop placing Blame, then you will find that there is nothing at all to Blame for your misery.., 

I hate slick Willy, But Willy was Slick without Religion


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 1, 2009)

What religion were you 420 yeas ago?


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## DEXTER MORGAN (Nov 1, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> Athiests don't hate religious people in general just the religions. Unless you're talking about some slick willy preacher with a rolex or whatever then yes I do hate them personally and for very very good reason.



Yes, atheists do hate religious people, some, not all, but atheist none the less. Ive seen them say so on this forum. Even your dumbass admitted to hating someone you dont even know. Honestly, atheists like you that hold grudges and hatred for people you dont know are really lame. Really really lame. Get a life


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## morgentaler (Nov 1, 2009)

I'm sure some atheists do and vice versa.
I don't personally hate anyone for their religious beliefs, but I do hold contempt for the irrational beliefs specifically. And if "God" were anything but a literary villain I would certainly hate it.

Christian scripture professes a hate for unbelievers throughout. Calling them various names and saying they are not worthy of association or mercy, etc. 

It doesn't mean all Christians will hate unbelievers, but if they aren't abiding by their scriptures why do they promote themselves as Christians in the first place?


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## Brazko (Nov 1, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> I'm sure some atheists do and vice versa.
> I don't personally hate anyone for their religious beliefs, but I do hold contempt for the irrational beliefs specifically. And if "God" were anything but a literary villain I would certainly hate it.
> 
> Christian scripture professes a hate for unbelievers throughout. Calling them various names and saying they are not worthy of association or mercy, etc.
> ...


What particular Irrational belief?

What particular villainous Act is committed and for what purpose?

Profess a hate for what type of Unbelief?

Worthy of what association or Mercy?

What rules should they abide by to call themselves Christian?

The questions do not necessarily need to be answered, because they all lie within what you believe to be True.., by mere choice of choosing to Believe them So.., 

To say God was on Alqaeda Side during 9/11, is the Same as saying God was on Our Side to victor a War.., If you interpret God to be Some individual fictional or Non Fictional entity, then that is What you Believe.., and that God is the God that fought with Alqaeda and America.. Why would the Same God fight against himself? I mean, if we should look at interpreting words for literal or allegorical face value, then I cannot believe a God to exist, that would commit suicide., again and again.., Literally speaking!! 

You cannot limit your understanding on a giving subject, and claim it as fact, then refute all other opinions as false, because your understanding, is the Correct Meaning.., 

My meaning may not be correct, but I will not judge others by my interpretation.., I can only judge Myself and my Actions.., Then society as a Whole will give Value to my Actions...., 


, I'm not laughing at you., I'm laughing at myself.., I feel like I'm preaching..,  and nobody likes the feeling of being preached too, 

I'm gonna stfu Now..


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## Brazko (Nov 1, 2009)

Oh, I forgot... Peek A Boo,

Why are you asking for Hate Mail?

you don't have to answer it, I already know,
it is What you believe..


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## Higher Education (Nov 2, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> You completely dodged the point that God murdering all those people was not an act of human free will.


Did not. They used their will to ignore God.



morgentaler said:


> Of course no one really died, but if the bible wasn't a work of fiction then they must be mass murders by a loving god, however you choose to define love.
> 
> You are also treating the bible as a historical document. It is not. It is a religious text.


The Bible is a historical document. There are hundreds of secular historians (who were neutral about Christ and the Christianity as a whole) that verify a lot of the events that took place in the Bible. I have a reference book full of them if you want some.




morgentaler said:


> You're operating under the assumption that this universe came from nothing. The big bang is merely an explanation for how this universe formed, but it does not limit that which can occur outside the system. To assume "God" simply because you don't have the answers is to embrace ignorance.
> 
> People used to belief that dirty clothing or piles of moldy grain spontaneously generated mice.
> http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/Bio114/spontgen.htm.


Your comment about this is completely irrelevant, I am referring to all the matter in existence, including any matter that have have existed before the forming of the universe. I am assuming that it had to come from some where.




morgentaler said:


> 1. You assume a closed system.
> 2. "God Did It!" is not an acceptable answer without proof. Admitting one does not yet have the answer to a problem and working toward it is the proper methodology. Claiming a deity performed an act without substantiating proof is fraud. *The bible is not proof.


 
If you're talking about all matter in existence as a system, which I was, then how could that system be open if there are no other systems to interact with? It would be closed by definition of it being the only system. Your physics knowledge is lacking. Your bible of bones and fossil collections offers no more proof than my bible. "Over Billions of Years" is not an acceptable answer without proof either.



morgentaler said:


> Yes it sounds terribly silly that you would consider God logical.
> What you might consider "nothing" can be the equilibrium of two states of charge, positive and negative arriving at a zero sum.
> And once again you make assumptions about the origin of the universe. Where do you get your information? The people with the best tools to see back into the depths of time still don't have access to that information yet.
> And you can just pull it out of your head like that?


When I say nothing I mean the abscence of all physics quantities (both vectors and scalars) including the four fundemental forces. I was never taught to call a charge or it's state of equilibrium "nothing" in school. I just referred to it as a charge and said the word equilibrium. Why are you even mentioning this state of equilibrium between charges that you call "nothing" if even the "people" you call scientists haven't found it? What is the point?



morgentaler said:


> No I don't. Because they are not.
> 
> What is your definition of perfect, and what qualfications do you have to define a perfect universe?
> 
> When speaking of probabilities of something that already exists, the probability of such a thing occurring is 1.


You took my sentence out of context here. I said the strong nuclear force was perfect, not the universe. My definition of perfect is that it allows all of the elements on the periodic table to exist, which allows for carbon based life forms such as ourselves, even though there is a huge margin of error. A little nudge in each directions in terms of magnitude and everything would cease to exist. The qualifications I have that justify me making this statement is that I will soon have my bachelors degree in physics and another in applied discrete math. Afterwards I will be heading to grad school for my Ph.D.

I am not speaking of the probablility of something that already exists. That is irrelevant. I am referring to the probability of the strong nuclear force being the set value as it is by random chance.




morgentaler said:


> Would you care to retract that statement?
> 
> The 20 year E. coli experiment by Richard Lenski observed over 20,000 generations of E. coli, archived at 75 generation steps, and shows demonstrable evolution.
> 
> ...


 

Susumu Ohno was only speculating about the frame shift mutation. Your wikipedia article even says so. I care not to hear about speculation, only facts. That leads me to wonder if I researched rings species and apple maggots if they would be based on speculation too. You're not doing a good job convincing me here.




morgentaler said:


> I have 2 animals with specific genetic mutations in a cage 3 feet from me.
> Male humans average around 150 mutations per generation. Apply that to hundreds of thousands of generations and you will find a significantly different organism.
> Take a full set of Encyclopedia Britannica's and change 150 letters each second for the next 100,000 seconds. Then read one of the articles. That is evolution in action.
> 
> ...


 
I am no expert on cellular biology and genetics, but Francis S. Collins is, and he believes in God. I have a book written by him titled "The Language of God". Dr. Collins was the lead researcher of the team that cracked the human genome back in 1999 under the Clinton administration. If such a prestigious geneticist believes in God then I think I am in good company. Albert Einstein, Werner Heisenberg, and Sir Isaac Newton also all believed in God. I have to ask, what are your credentials in comparison to theirs?



morgentaler said:


> Another example of a creationist trying to discount something because their definition of the word is "guess" while science has a very different interpretation.
> 
> A scientific theory is arrived at through several stages. An observation is made, and a hypothesis is formed. From the hypothesis experiments are designed. The experiments are performed and the evidence is collected. If any part of the experimentation process is found to be falsifiable, eg. removing an element of the experiment does not change the outcome, then the experiment is revisited until it is no longer falsifiable. With sufficient evidence you may then present this information as a theory.
> 
> ...


Gravity has empirical evidence that everyone experiences everyday. All of the evidence you have presented me with for the case of evolution is speculative, even one of your own sources says so. Religion does allow for inquiry and scientific reasoning. The problem arises when people are afraid to mix religion and science. I don't know what the main talking points are about natural selection, because once again, I am a physicist, not a geneticist. I am sure Francis S. Collins does though, and he believes in God.


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## howhighru (Nov 2, 2009)

Spittn4cash said:


> I wouldnt call religion "poison" I would just call it bullshit


i totally agree wit u man


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## OregonMeds (Nov 2, 2009)

DEXTER MORGAN said:


> Yes, atheists do hate religious people, some, not all, but atheist none the less. Ive seen them say so on this forum. Even your dumbass admitted to hating someone you dont even know. Honestly, atheists like you that hold grudges and hatred for people you dont know are really lame. Really really lame. Get a life


Show me where I said I hate anyone (a real person not a preacher or a "god" or a religion). 

Show me...

Maybe you came across somewhere I said I hate something and took it literally instead of just a figure of speach. I'm guessing you probably aren't the greatest at discerning the intent behind writings and take too many things literally. Just like perhaps you do with the bible...


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## Higher Education (Nov 3, 2009)

Hey everyone! I've got an idea! Let's watch Richard Dawkins make an ass of himself by using phrases like "flying spaghetti monsters" and ASSuming a woman was brought up Christian just because she lives in America!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg&feature=fvw


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 3, 2009)

Anyone see Jesus Camp?

edit:

It was scary.


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## Higher Education (Nov 3, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> Anyone see Jesus Camp?


I saw only a little. Pure indoctrination. My problem with the adults teaching those kids is that they aren't teaching them to be thinkers. Just repeaters. Not to say that the kids are being taught wrong ideals, but just the style in which they were being taught.


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## morgentaler (Nov 3, 2009)

Higher Education said:


> Hey everyone! I've got an idea! Let's watch Richard Dawkins make an ass of himself by using phrases like "flying spaghetti monsters" and ASSuming a woman was brought up Christian just because she lives in America!
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg&feature=fvw


He states that he is making a presumption right at the opening. He can make this assumption because 70 percent of Americans call themselves Christian. He is speaking at Liberty University, the motto of which is "Training Champions for Christ". He can then assume, with a substantially better than 70 percent chance of being right, that she is Christian. And she is questioning statements he just made, which put the view into context. She has the opportunity to correct him if he is wrong.

I don't see what's asinine about referring to the probabilities of existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Celestial Teapot or any other religion in comparison to God or Jesus.
Unless you have the preconceived notion that any or all of them is real, there is nothing to prove the existence of any one is more probable than the other.

The full lecture is quite interesting.


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## morgentaler (Nov 3, 2009)

Higher Education said:


> Not to say that the kids are being taught wrong ideals, but just the style in which they were being taught.


So you want them to be taught that witches and demons are real and Harry Potter should be put to death, but have it taught in a much gentler fashion?


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## OregonMeds (Nov 3, 2009)

You know what he meant... Do unto others, don't rape your sister, those kind of values.


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## morgentaler (Nov 3, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> You know what he meant... Do unto others, don't rape your sister, those kind of values.


The Jesus Camp evangelists specifically calls for the death of Harry Potter if he was a real boy and goes on about demons and witches. There was no redeeming value in anything those people forced on those children at all.


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## Higher Education (Nov 3, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> You know what he meant... Do unto others, don't rape your sister, those kind of values.


Thank you sir, you obviously knew what I meant.





morgentaler said:


> He states that he is making a presumption right at the opening. He can make this assumption because 70 percent of Americans call themselves Christian. He is speaking at Liberty University, the motto of which is "Training Champions for Christ". He can then assume, with a substantially better than 70 percent chance of being right, that she is Christian. And she is questioning statements he just made, which put the view into context. She has the opportunity to correct him if he is wrong.


You make a valid point about him being at Liberty University. I didn't realize they were Christian. I too go to a Christian university, but it's most likely more secular than Liberty. We have a significant number of people trying to start a gay rights club behind the university's back.

Actually the latest polls suggest somewhere around 83% of americans call themselves Christians(http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/beliefnet_poll_010718.html) . The poll also reported 50 denominations. There are so many twisted views being taught (in relation to the bible, not your views) and people using religion as a hierarchy that very few of these people are actually true christians. I've read several places that only 5-10% percent of self-proclaimed christians know the fundemental values and believes of christianity and fewer than that actually follow them. I am not saying this to negate your point, but to state my frustration with religion too. 



morgentaler said:


> I don't see what's asinine about referring to the probabilities of existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Celestial Teapot or any other religion in comparison to God or Jesus.
> Unless you have the preconceived notion that any or all of them is real, there is nothing to prove the existence of any one is more probable than the other.
> 
> The full lecture is quite interesting.


You are right, there would be no basis for one being more probable than the other if there were no preconceived notions. However, there are preconceptions about God and why he exists though. Some of the preconceptions about God that I subscribe to are derived from a large volume of scientific data that is suggestive of a creator. Whether you judge this data as suggestively valid, but not necessarily proof, or not, is up to you. There are several noteworthy scientists that do though. The percentage of believers among the scientific community has also stayed the same despite our increased knowledge in the theory of evolution and our increased general knowledge. 40% of scientists believed in God in 1916. 40% of scientists in 1997 also believed in God. These two surveys were controlled and conducted randomly, which is consistent with the laws of probability. The sample size in both surveys was 1,000. Assuming the sampling was random, which it was as I previously stated, the margin of error can be determined by this formula. Standard error=the square root of((p)(1-p)/n). Using this we can show the margin of error is around 3%. That would mean that even if there is a 3% percent error in the data, there still wouldn't be a huge fluctuation between believers and non-believers among the scientific community over this time frame.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_n22_v91/ai_19332942/pg_2/?tag=content;col1

I also realize you might not know what "suggestive data" i'm referring to above, but ask me if you care enough to consider it with a neutral mindset, and i'll be glad to show it to you. That goes for anyone else who is reading this too. 



morgentaler said:


> The Jesus Camp evangelists specifically calls for the death of Harry Potter if he was a real boy and goes on about demons and witches. There was no redeeming value in anything those people forced on those children at all.


 
I did say I only saw some of this.



This is interesting too, by the way, and i've only watched a little bit of it:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjJAWuzno9Y


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## morgentaler (Nov 3, 2009)

Higher Education said:


> However, there are preconceptions about God and why he exists though. Some of the preconceptions about God that I subscribe to are derived from a large volume of scientific data that is suggestive of a creator. Whether you judge this data as suggestively valid, but not necessarily proof, or not, is up to you.


I'd actually be quite interested in seeing scientific data that suggests such a thing. 
The closest thing I've seen so far is Michael Behe's assertion that some features of biological organisms must be the product of divine creation because they are irreducibly complex and cannot function without the whole. He uses the bacterial flagellum as an example. But experiments have shown that if you remove parts of flagella some of the configurations still function. Not necessarily in the identical role, but in a way that is still beneficial to the organism. They were able to remove 80% of the parts from one and were left with a small fluid injector and transfer pump on the side of the bacteria.
Ken Miller covers it in this video: http://www.encyclopedia.com/video/K_HVrjKcvrU-irreducible-complexity-bacterial-flagellum-debunked.aspx



> There are several noteworthy scientists that do though. The percentage of believers among the scientific community has also stayed the same despite our increased knowledge in the theory of evolution and our increased general knowledge. 40% of scientists believed in God in 1916. 40% of scientists in 1997 also believed in God.


I'm familiar with Larson's study and the results he obtained. Here's an interesting letter about the study in Larson's own words:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

Belief among the 'greater' scientists. 
_Belief in personal God_ _1914_ _1933_ _1998
_Personal belief  27.7  15  7.0 
Personal disbelief  52.7  68  72.2 
Doubt or agnosticism  20.9  17  20.8 
 _
Belief in human immortality_ _1914_ _1933_ _1998_ 
Personal belief  35.2  18  7.9
Personal disbelief  25.4  53  76.7
Doubt or agnosticism  43.7  29  23.3




> I also realize you might not know what "suggestive data" i'm referring to above, but ask me if you care enough to consider it with a neutral mindset, and i'll be glad to show it to you. That goes for anyone else who is reading this too.


Go for it, but I must warn you that I'm not neutral on faith disguised as science. So vet your sources carefully so I don't Hulk out 




> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjJAWuzno9Y


Cool, should be a good watch. Collins is an interesting character.


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## PadawanBater (Nov 3, 2009)

Higher Education said:


> Actually the latest polls suggest somewhere around 83% of americans call themselves Christians(http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/beliefnet_poll_010718.html) . The poll also reported 50 denominations. There are so many twisted views being taught (in relation to the bible, not your views) and people using religion as a hierarchy that very few of these people are actually true christians. I've read several places that only 5-10% percent of self-proclaimed christians know the fundemental values and believes of christianity and fewer than that actually follow them. I am not saying this to negate your point, but to state my frustration with religion too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
First off, good, thorough post. Looks like you took some time and did some research, which I appreciate, I'm sure others do too. 

I did want to point something out though. The source you used, I couldn't tell if that was an article written in 2009 about a study conducted in 1997 or if the study was conducted in 2009, regardless, I've seen had this exact same issue with other people as well. The article doesn't go into defining what "God" is. It's vague, I've always suspected purposefully, to make the figure seem higher than it actually would be if the question were instead "Do you believe in the Abrahamic God of the Bible?" - most scientists believe that there _might_ be some intelligence of some kind behind the existence of the universe... that's a long shot from saying "the Biblical God is real". 

That's all.


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## morgentaler (Nov 3, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> Anyone see Jesus Camp?
> edit:
> It was scary.


So is "Deborah 13: Servant of God"


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## Brazko (Nov 3, 2009)

Higher Education said:


> This is interesting too, by the way, and i've only watched a little bit of it:
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjJAWuzno9Y


The video was pretty good.., I've just finished it.., I was feeling kinda "Oh, Oh" at first, but this guy did lay a broader insight into the moderate per se' realms of christanity, if there is such a thing. I didn't agree with some of his implied insights of God, and some other points made that I need further looking into, but I believe he said it best in that some people only need a little of nothing to move forward in their faith, while others may need more to move forward in their faith.., 

All in All, a excellent video with some familiar, but good Q&A..., I believe he could've gave more insight as well to his perception of God, but I too, believe it would only deter the understanding of another.., I like the guy that asked for a few Bullet Points to understand, but it takes more than somebody given you bits of their summarized beliefs.., It's been a long Q&A towards progression to understanding, And the Q&A isn't always by another person, but to yourself.., the hardest questions and greatest answers will always come from you.. 


++rep, liked it


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## OregonMeds (Nov 4, 2009)

Higher Education said:


> clip-
> 
> Actually the latest polls suggest somewhere around 83% of americans call themselves Christians
> 
> ...


The percentage stayed the same and you focus on that, but what it says to me is that for the last 100 years educated scientists have been half as likely to believe in any form of god as non scientists. This despite probable indoctrination in their youth. They learned the god out of themselves is my take on it, because never can anyone convince another person he doesn't exist, that just doesn't happen.

Others held onto their beliefs despite pretty hefty evidence to the contrary both then and now.

Human nature doesn't change over time, not just 100 years, so the statistics you focus on thinking it's something in your favor actually should be the same and are meaningless.


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## Higher Education (Nov 7, 2009)

Hey everyone! I am still going to post the information that I had mentioned before and respond to people's comments. I have just been super busy and feeling quite lazy during my free time. I also just finished the majority of my first harvest so I am pretty excited about that. I have 11 ounces curing and about 5 more still drying. Unfortuanately, I have to sell most of it to upgrade me next grow and pay bills. Hope everyone is doing well!


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## PadawanBater (Nov 7, 2009)

Higher Education said:


> Hey everyone! I am still going to post the information that I had mentioned before and respond to people's comments. I have just been super busy and feeling quite lazy during my free time. I also just finished the majority of my first harvest so I am pretty excited about that. I have 11 ounces curing and about 5 more still drying. Unfortuanately, I have to sell most of it to upgrade me next grow and pay bills. Hope everyone is doing well!


Nice! Congrats on your grow dude!


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## seifer699 (Nov 7, 2009)

ThaDutchieCouple said:


> *Hi everyone
> 
> If you all havnt relized already, im an athiest. And i dont come by it lighty. I think about it pretty much everyday, its hard not too, if God exists and I choose to be an atheist, then that means when i die I am deliberately choosing torture for eternety, when the other option is to live forever in paradise, hevean.
> 
> ...


very true, but think of it in a bigger picture, humans are very intelligent and are put on earth how? by random ? i dont think so, there must be a deity that controls the universe. maybe possibly there are high beings controlling difernt universes and galaxies. no one really knows, but what i know is there is a God. religions are all similiar and have no real author, there is too much evidence on this. watch this if you want http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 9, 2009)

I don't believe eligion poisons everything.

May I be so bold as to risk getting my feet roasted off by the Catholic Church for proposing the following:

religion = myth ?

Is it possible to believe in both at the same time?

Some seem to make more sense when the the two words are exchanged in their text.

Do all Priests everywhere really believe the Inquisition will be forever over?


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## ThaDutchieCouple (Nov 9, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> I don't believe eligion poisons everything.
> 
> May I be so bold as to risk getting my feet roasted off by the Catholic Church for proposing the following:
> 
> ...


*Religion does poision everything because it is infectious. One person believes, has children, they believe, and they pass it down to the next generation when they have children. Christians knowing that children will believe anything they hear, even if its complete nonsence, make sure to drill their beliefs onto them while they are still young and beliving in other nonsence such as the existance of Santa, the tooth fairy etc.
Its a never ending cycle, but it can be stopped if children are given other options, and the right to choose.* *Keeping children in religious schools away from these other options and science, is a forceful way to keep them on a leash and not know anything but what they have been told.*


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## undertheice (Nov 9, 2009)

ThaDutchieCouple said:


> *Christians knowing that children will believe anything they hear, even if its complete nonsense, make sure to drill their beliefs onto them while they are still young.....
> Its a never ending cycle, but it can be stopped if children are given other options.....*


just who is it that should decide what information the young should hear, if not their parents? perhaps you would prefer that society steps in and indoctrinates our children, forbidding parents from introducing their offspring to anything that is not approved by the state. what would you like to see replace those lessons in morality that are inherent in most of our childhood religious teachings?

people believe a lot of crazy shit and they will inevitably hand down those beliefs to their children. this is a part of the price all children pay in an attempt to erase the debt they owe their parents for their very existence. throughout our childhoods we absorb the wisdom of our elders. the little truths, the misconceptions, the well intentioned hints at the miseries to come, and all those other bits and pieces of our parents are taken in and stored for later use. on leaving home we choose which of these bits and pieces to take to heart and which to throw away. there must be some need in those that choose to retain their religious upbringing. a need that only those fables can fill. you can't fill that hole by merely denying children access to religion.


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## morgentaler (Nov 9, 2009)

The simplest way to eliminate religion is not to mandate it out of peoples lives, but rather to just provide quality education in the public school system.

The more educated a person is the less likely they are to believe in gods, myths, and other nonsense.

Even with the poor budgeting allotted to schools, education through the internet, documentaries, and other science related programming has given kids an awareness of the world that just wasn't available even a generation ago.

Atheism isn't a blip or an aberration. It is the natural state of birth and with each passing day more people revert to it.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 10, 2009)

I believe no amount of information will ever remove Myth from the human psyche.

New information can invalidate certain religious dogma but,

you can never unlearn Hercules

or know for certain what lies beyond his Pillars.


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## ThaDutchieCouple (Nov 10, 2009)

undertheice said:


> what would you like to see replace those lessons in morality that are inherent in most of our childhood religious teachings?
> 
> you can't fill that hole by merely denying children access to religion.


*
I would like to see children learning evolution, science, and the beauty of nature for starters. Children learn the earth was created in 7 days, and basically that the earth is a waiting room until they die, to go to the real party, afterlife. They are not taught the magnificent truths about our planet, and how it actually came to be. Also how it is now being destroyed by people who think the world could end any day now, and have no thoughts for further in the future. I watched Jesus Camp the other day, the religious mother and son were commenting on a serious crisis we face global warming, stating they dont think it is actually a problem saying the temperature has only increased slightly in the past few years.
People cant think like this anymore period.

As for denying children "access" to religion, i can agree. But unfortunatly children are not allowed access, they are brainwashed at young ages. If people wanted to really give a human being a choice, they would wait until the person is old enough to not believe everything they hear, and have the abiltity to think for themselves, or atleast show the other options. But that hasnt happened and i doubt it will, because they know the likely hood of being tought the bible without any religious background, and not as a child, they would simply not belive such bullshit!*


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## ThaDutchieCouple (Nov 10, 2009)

seifer699 said:


> very true, but think of it in a bigger picture, humans are very intelligent and are put on earth how? by random ? i dont think so, there must be a deity that controls the universe. maybe possibly there are high beings controlling difernt universes and galaxies. no one really knows, but what i know is there is a God. religions are all similiar and have no real author, there is too much evidence on this. watch this if you want http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/



I've thought of that question too. Nobody will know our purpose, but what if its to just EXIST? I mean our planet in my opinion is my God, its truely beautiful and we get to experience so much, in my opionion if you live a long life here, your more than lucky and i would have no desire to go to any fluffy heaven to do...what for eternity, chill with god and his other millions of followers? Id rather burn down under with the other smart thinking people. But i guess we wont know until its too late!
I've seen zeitgeist and thought it was a great film, highly reccommed it to everyone.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 10, 2009)

+rep ThaDutchieCouple!




As a super-secret secular scientist, 

I believe one of the underlying explanations for the existence of life as we understand it today

is very simply that genetic material continually strives for its most efficient distribution.

Just ask my Catholic family.


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## morgentaler (Nov 10, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> you can never unlearn Hercules
> 
> or know for certain what lies beyond his Pillars.


But you can stop believing it's truth.


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## morgentaler (Nov 10, 2009)

ThaDutchieCouple said:


> Nobody will know our purpose, but what if its to just EXIST?


It would at least appear that our purpose it to survive to breeding age, then procreate so that genes may live on.


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## seifer699 (Nov 17, 2009)

you wake up in the morning, read the newspaper or tv, what do you believe? do not believe everything the media has to say, it is man made anything that is manmade has a possibility of faults, the fault i find nowadays would be false information.


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## anhedonia (Nov 17, 2009)

If you work for the chinese government you have to declare yourself athiest. If your wondering how an athiest society works just look at china. They worship money. And they are infamous for human rights abuses. Look what they have done to Tibet.


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## PadawanBater (Nov 17, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> If you work for the chinese government you have to declare yourself athiest. If your wondering how an athiest society works just look at china. They worship money. And they are infamous for human rights abuses. Look what they have done to Tibet.


 


Got a source for me buddy?

Howbout look to Norway, Sweeden, or France... ya know those three European countries with outstanding GDP rates? 

What about officially recognized religious nations, like Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Egypt, Syria... I could go on and on.

I'd rather live in an atheist society, bet your ass on that one.


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## anhedonia (Nov 17, 2009)

Spoken like a true douche that lables himself as "athiest." Im coming to find your just as silly as Christians. The problem with an athiest society is that it opens the door to persecute those that do have spiritual beliefs. I would assume by your comment you know next to nothing about China's peaceful liberation of Tibet and the state of thier country today. ://www.tchrd.org/publications/annual_reports/1999/ I would much rather live under a benevolent dictatorship than some mindless athiest society. But really I think you mean to become enlightened by your "Rational" beliefs, or is it rather to just assert them and constantly argue wether some stupid god exists. Who cares. At least were all free to pursue what ever belief we want and not be persecuted by the government.


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## PadawanBater (Nov 17, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> Spoken like a true douche that lables himself as "athiest." Im coming to find your just as silly as Christians. *The problem with an athiest society is that it opens the door to persecute those that do have spiritual beliefs. *


Couldn't be more wrong. In a hypothetical completely atheistic society, one would be totally free, not _free_ in today's sense of the word, *completely free*, to believe whatever they wished *without persecution* from any authority. That's what I advocate. Believe what you want, you have that right. It's when you start pushing your beliefs onto me that causes problems. Seeing as atheism is simply the _lack of belief,_ why don't *you* go ahead and tell me how one would go about doing that? I have nothing to push but ignorance out of society. Religious persecution comes from other religions, and always has. 



> I would assume by your comment you know next to nothing about China's peaceful liberation of Tibet and the state of thier country today. ://www.tchrd.org/publications/annual_reports/1999/ *I would much rather live under a benevolent dictatorship than some mindless athiest society. *


That's pretty telling. "Benevolent dictatorship" - I guess that's how you'd pretty much sum up basking in heaven for all those Christian fundies eh? Fuck your subjective "benevolent dictatorship" - I'll think for myself and be responsible to myself. Also got a reality check for ya, here's a list of well known atheists, have fun with that, these guys are total idiots, I mean, what did they ever contribute to society, right?!; 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nontheists_(science_and_technology)

Also, you guys should really start reading up on history and stop taking notes from creationist sources. You're idea that because China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China) is dominantly non religious (not atheist, which accounts for 8%-14%) that makes it a prime example for what an atheistic society would be. That's about as valid an argument as since Hitler believed in cell theory, cell theory is false. You make the classic mistake of looking at the worst bit of, what you interpret to be atheistic motivations, within dominantly non religious (again, not *atheist*) societies, then using that as an example of what atheism would produce. If that was the case, should we look at *the Crusades* as a prime example of what Christianity can produce? How about the witch burnings? Give me a break man, think for yourself and stop repeating retarded claims by creationists.


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## anhedonia (Nov 17, 2009)

You furthur illustrate my understanding of intelligence vs. true wizdom. It seems you simply refute what I have to say for the mere sake of arguing. No real meaning behind it since I dont have a damn thing to prove to you.


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## brainwarp (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm late coming in to this conversation, so I'm taking this back to the first post... 

You're looking at the cup half empty. I can't explain why there is disease and hardships in the world. Look at the incredibly awesome things in life, and the universe. the human body alone, is proof of god. Don't confuse God with religion. Religion is bullshit, god is not.  Religion exploits people, like a bad cult. ( I was raised catholic, but rejected their bullshit as cult brainwashing, once I learned to think for myself.)

This planet and solar system works in harmony to support all our intelligent lives. The earth, moon, and sun work in perfect harmony to provide a habitable place for us to live. It may not be perfect, but it's damn good. You certainly don't have anything to complain about there. 

Mankind created most of the problems you list, and religion's poison is mostly to blame. The rest of the problems are from man's ignorance of the forces of nature. Religion has also hampered this also, by punishing people who advance science. This happened over and over throughout history. People had to hide their thoughts from religious leaders, to avoid being tortured to death. Where would our science be today, without all that oppression?

Until religions learn to respect people that disagree with their philosophy (i.e. become tolerant).... there will be war.


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## PadawanBater (Nov 17, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> You furthur illustrate my understanding of intelligence vs. true wizdom. It seems you simply refute what I have to say for the mere sake of arguing. No real meaning behind it since I dont have a damn thing to prove to you.


You ever hear of the gateway drug theory? You know how stupid that is right... That's what you were doing with the arguments you came with. Maybe you've never heard a refutation or rebuttal to any of them, maybe you have... who knows, but you repeated essentially the exact same arguments I've personally been hearing since I got into this. It's like you guys take notes off eachother and never correct your ideas because the idea is what's important to you, not the truth. I might be completely generalizing you right now, I don't remember you personally ever advocating any specific creationist claims, but what you've been doing the past couple posts is just as ignorant. Go type in any of the claims you came with into google, followed by - rebuttal, and there you have it, the answers to all your questions and misconceptions.

Also, take a look at the atheism thread;

https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/252681-atheism-80.html

A lot of this has already been covered.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 18, 2009)

How can I look at what China did to Tibet?

I thought the government snuffed out the media on that one?


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## ThaDutchieCouple (Nov 23, 2009)

brainwarp said:


> I'm late coming in to this conversation, so I'm taking this back to the first post...
> 
> You're looking at the cup half empty. I can't explain why there is disease and hardships in the world. Look at the incredibly awesome things in life, and the universe. the human body alone, is proof of god. Don't confuse God with religion. Religion is bullshit, god is not. Religion exploits people, like a bad cult. ( I was raised catholic, but rejected their bullshit as cult brainwashing, once I learned to think for myself.)
> 
> ...


*
I agree with alot of your thinking. I was raised in christian family, baptized and all. I've gone to church countless times and i can honestly say i resieved nothing from it, or can i remember much except being bored, church was hell. I have no care for organizations such as religions or their braishwasshing beliefs, but i still dont fully doubt a higher source or energy within us, and the universe. I call myself antheist due the fact that religion is a huge threat to humanity and our future. But i dont doubt ghosts or parmomal acitivy and souls, i think there is actually way more evidence to prove that over jesus or this god character. 
There is no heaven or hell, if anything i really do hope rencaration exists, kinda doubt it, but it would be nice if it happens!!
im just a free thinker lol*


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 24, 2009)

I believe it is possible for somethings to be in our driver's seat.

It is easy if you believe in spirits.

Is it possible for somethings to manage a company as large as Humanity?

Some believe most of Humanity deserves not be saved because they did not follow the recent rules of religion.

What about the beasts? 

Will they be saved?

Will those who understand only squares be considered beasts?

Never forget evil prefers the shadowy end of a spectrum.


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## OregonMeds (Nov 27, 2009)

ThaDutchieCouple said:


> *
> I agree with alot of your thinking. I was raised in christian family, baptized and all. I've gone to church countless times and i can honestly say i resieved nothing from it, or can i remember much except being bored, church was hell. I have no care for organizations such as religions or their braishwasshing beliefs, but i still dont fully doubt a higher source or energy within us, and the universe. I call myself antheist due the fact that religion is a huge threat to humanity and our future. But i dont doubt ghosts or parmomal acitivy and souls, i think there is actually way more evidence to prove that over jesus or this god character.
> There is no heaven or hell, if anything i really do hope rencaration exists, kinda doubt it, but it would be nice if it happens!!
> im just a free thinker lol*


You don't qualify as an athiest if you believe there may be a higher power or if you believe in spirits or whatever. Sorry to be so harsh, but you completely fail as an athiest. You have part of it right, but most of it wrong.

Reincarnation? You may as well be a creationist.


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## morgentaler (Nov 27, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> You don't qualify as an athiest if you believe there may be a higher power or if you believe in spirits or whatever. Sorry to be so harsh, but you completely fail as an athiest. You have part of it right, but most of it wrong.
> 
> Reincarnation? You may as well be a creationist.


True enough.

That would be an agnostic deist and anti-theist.


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## sunshine17542 (Nov 27, 2009)

> If god really has power on the world, why do we face poverty, murder, war, flesh eating diseases, cancer, global warming, child abuse, dictatorship, racism and sexism, slavery.. the list goes on and on.
> Why havnt any of these critical issues changed? Why hasnt god saved any of them?


God did not create the suffering that occurs on earth. We did. Selfishness born from ignorance.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 27, 2009)

Reincarnation &#8800; Creation Myth

Higher Power &#8800; Deity

included were many concepts in your quote, so it is hard to know exactly to that you refer.

&#8800; does not necessarily =

agnostic deist = I don't know if I believe in God?

antitheist = One who opposes God

atheist = One who opposes belief in God

Humanity can quickly do many great things, including eliminating the Human suffering that occurs on Earth. 

Will they explain to their God why they have not?


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## OregonMeds (Nov 27, 2009)

sunshine17542 said:


> God did not create the suffering that occurs on earth. We did. Selfishness born from ignorance.


According to your people god created the forbidden fruit and someone didn't listen to the warnings and ate it, and supposedly that's the beginning of all suffering on earth. No fruit, no suffering. Or had god created a better human that could follow instructions, no suffering.

You can't blame a single thing on humans if you believe a god is responsible for making us all that we are. He should have made us better, that would be his failure.

And our ignorance is also his doing, he didn't instill a single word inside us. He could have designed us to carry all kinds of knowledge and not be born ignorant of anything.


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## sunshine17542 (Nov 27, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> According to your people god created the forbidden fruit and someone didn't listen to the warnings and ate it, and supposedly that's the beginning of all suffering on earth. No fruit, no suffering. Or had god created a better human that could follow instructions, no suffering.
> 
> You can't blame a single thing on humans if you believe a god is responsible for making us all that we are. He should have made us better, that would be his failure.
> 
> And our ignorance is also his doing, he didn't instill a single word inside us. He could have designed us to carry all kinds of knowledge and not be born ignorant of anything.


Who are my people? God gave us free will. It is our choice to do good or to do bad. How would God make us better? People are very smart and capable of wonderful things. We are here to learn. People need to learn to receive for the desire to share. God is all loving and all giving. We were put here to learn to be like God.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 27, 2009)

We believe it is not quite polite to throw people into a bucket and Yell them what they do not believe while Your Mind is closed.

We also believe 

Religion Does Not Poison Everything

We also believe there are bad apples in every study involving Big Money.


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## sunshine17542 (Nov 27, 2009)

Regardless of what people may believe everyone on this earth is apart of God, whether you realize it or not. The thing is realization. It has to come from within yourself. It does not come from reading scriptures or going to church.


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## morgentaler (Nov 27, 2009)

It's okay that you're deluded. 
It's not okay that you include me in your delusion.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 27, 2009)

Please exit my delusion!

Did you read not the sign at the door saying "long-haired phreaky people need not enter The Phat Rabbit hole"?


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## anhedonia (Nov 27, 2009)

an alternative to delusion: [youtube]E9BBy3aidRE[/youtube]


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## ThaDutchieCouple (Nov 28, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> You don't qualify as an athiest if you believe there may be a higher power or if you believe in spirits or whatever. Sorry to be so harsh, but you completely fail as an athiest. You have part of it right, but most of it wrong.
> 
> Reincarnation? You may as well be a creationist.



I dont BELIEVE, but i dont doubt it and neither should others. Atheists are sure there is absolutly nothing out there but how are you so sure? NOBODY knows, so i dont know, and you dont know. there is more proof the deity god dosnt exist than that energy dosnt exist, maybe not a higher power that has controll over everything, but ENERGY. Maybe im not a good atheist then... i keep my mind open and i feel most atheists shut them because of all the frustration they feel towards the religious, but really you have to open your eyes to see that we arnt here for no reason, to live and die.


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## PadawanBater (Nov 28, 2009)

ThaDutchieCouple said:


> I dont BELIEVE, but i dont doubt it and neither should others. Atheists are sure there is absolutly nothing out there but how are you so sure? NOBODY knows, so i dont know, and you dont know. there is more proof the deity god dosnt exist than that energy dosnt exist, maybe not a higher power that has controll over everything, but ENERGY. Maybe im not a good atheist then... i keep my mind open and i feel most atheists shut them because of all the frustration they feel towards the religious, but really you have to open your eyes to see that we arnt here for no reason, to live and die.


 
The majority of atheists fall in line with your belief. There are atheists out there, like Morgen, who do believe there is not a God. My personal belief is almost on par with his, though I still hold that 1% of "there _might _be _something_", but I'm still an atheist in the sense that none of the Gods mankind has ever seen, none of them, exist. I am just as positive of this fact that I am sitting here typing this. 

If there is a God, I sincerely hope he's one of those kinds that doesn't fuck with anyones lives, because if he's not, I sure as fuck won't worship him the way he's been "guiding" our history...


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## sunshine17542 (Nov 28, 2009)

God would never force anyone to choose Him. He wants you to choose Him because you love Him and you want only Him. If you have God, you have everything. One would choose to love God because they realize that He is everlasting happiness. No material possessions or relationships will bring you real happiness. Real happiness is found with God. There is no security in this material world. Everything is subject to change, there is only security in God. I don't "believe" in God because I am afraid of dying, everyone dies and eventually I will die too. I am not afraid of death, but that doesn't mean I won't try and prevent it if I can. I wouldn't stick my head in a lions mouth. I "believe" in God because I know that deep down that is what I truly desire. I have a very good idea of who I am and what my soul is, until you know that you will never realize God. Many people look out in the world to find God, but there you can only find His work. God and science go hand in hand. Science is how God made the universe, how everything works. It's perfect how everything works. If you really want to find God, you need to look within yourself. Man was created in the image of God. If you are so sure that He doesn't exist then there is nothing that I can tell you that will make you "believe", as I said before it comes from within yourself, you have to want it. It doesn't matter to me what other people think, I can't change anyone, only you can change you. I am only telling you this because everyone is apart of God and if you can find Him within yourself you can have real happiness. Happiness is what everyone really wants and God is that, for everyone not just one person. He is not hiding from you, but you are hiding from Him. Only when you really desire Him and give Him your love will He reveal Himself too you. All that exists is God, everything else is nothing.


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## morgentaler (Nov 28, 2009)

> The majority of atheists fall in line with your belief. There are atheists out there, like Morgen, who do believe there is not a God.




Well I'm open to the discovery of some sort of creative intelligence or force. There has just been no evidence presented for one, therefore there is no call to believe in one.

My absolute certainty is in regards to the desperate little gods of men, petty, vindictive, and concerned with all manner of social control, demanding belief and obedience like a wretched schoolyard bully. With each religion convinced it is the true religion and the others are wrong.

If faith without evidence is to be considered virtuous and correct, then all must be true. Since they contradict each other profusely, then all must be false. There is no evidence which makes any one religion more substantial than another except sheer numbers and the willingness to indoctrinate by force.


And back to what Dutchie said... Yes, you can be a good atheist with your interpretation.

I'd be considered a gnostic atheist, anti-theist, and agnostic adeist. As in I'm certain there is no religious deity, am anti-religious, and pretty sure there is no general creator too but can't say with any certainty. This could all be a mathematical simulation in that regard.

So if you're an atheist who doesn't believe in the christian god or any of its ilk, but think there is probably a creator, then you're an atheist and an agnostic deist.

Ta da. You won't implode now


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## morgentaler (Nov 28, 2009)

sunshine17542 said:


> God would never force anyone to choose Him.


Right. All that scripture about punishment for unbelievers isn't an attempt to force anyone.

Just like if you pour gasoline on someone and put them at the edge of a building and tell them they have the option to jump or you're going to set them on fire, it absolves you of any blame if they jump.


edit: The "lovely" thing about indoctrination is that you only have to terrorize the new converts into your religion for a generation or two. After that, they've done a good job of convincing their children to believe the lies in order to protect them, and those children don't even realize the religion they are immersed in was forced on their ancestors. African Slaves and Native Americans being two cultural groups heavily affected by forced indoctrination.


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## sunshine17542 (Nov 28, 2009)

I don't belong to any religion.


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## sunshine17542 (Nov 28, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Right. All that scripture about punishment for unbelievers isn't an attempt to force anyone.
> 
> Just like if you pour gasoline on someone and put them at the edge of a building and tell them they have the option to jump or you're going to set them on fire, it absolves you of any blame if they jump.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you have a lot of hate in you. As in the other thread I have said what I needed to say. I guess I will let "reality" hit me on the way out.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 28, 2009)

To all non-deity believing creatures:

Did you notice the Mod God correction?


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## OregonMeds (Nov 28, 2009)

You just can't win Morgan even when you're right. You can try to point out how heretics were tortured burned and killed all you want, it won't sink in. You can remind them that hell is an everlasting torture you are promised if you don't believe and don't do as you're instructed. You can explain how many ways the bible says you should suffer, and how many of all the pleasures of life you must deny yourself. You can explain how arms are supposed to be chopped off for theft or eyes are supposed to be gouged out. And on and on and on. It's a loving and understanding and compassionate god, and you had damn well BEST believe that or he'll KILL you then let you be tortured FOREVER.

Yet you sir are indeed full of hate. It's you that is the problem.  Clearly god doesn't force anything on you.


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## anhedonia (Nov 28, 2009)

sunshine17542 said:


> It sounds like you have a lot of hate in you. As in the other thread I have said what I needed to say. I guess I will let "reality" hit me on the way out.


 
Acctually he is pointing something out that is quite accurate. Funny though, your comment made me think of sean hannity when somone brings up a counter point he then retorts with "Why do you hate America" every time. Hilarious.


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## cbtwohundread (Nov 28, 2009)

life is for suffering.,.,life is also a long,bumpy foggy road but i love it so.,.,knowledge of the creator is overstanding.,.,


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## ThaDutchieCouple (Nov 28, 2009)

sunshine17542 said:


> God would never force anyone to choose Him. He wants you to choose Him because you love Him and you want only Him. If you have God, you have everything. One would choose to love God because they realize that He is everlasting happiness. No material possessions or relationships will bring you real happiness. Real happiness is found with God. There is no security in this material world. Everything is subject to change, there is only security in God. I don't "believe" in God because I am afraid of dying, everyone dies and eventually I will die too. I am not afraid of death, but that doesn't mean I won't try and prevent it if I can. I wouldn't stick my head in a lions mouth. I "believe" in God because I know that deep down that is what I truly desire. I have a very good idea of who I am and what my soul is, until you know that you will never realize God. Many people look out in the world to find God, but there you can only find His work. God and science go hand in hand. Science is how God made the universe, how everything works. It's perfect how everything works. If you really want to find God, you need to look within yourself. Man was created in the image of God. If you are so sure that He doesn't exist then there is nothing that I can tell you that will make you "believe", as I said before it comes from within yourself, you have to want it. It doesn't matter to me what other people think, I can't change anyone, only you can change you. I am only telling you this because everyone is apart of God and if you can find Him within yourself you can have real happiness. Happiness is what everyone really wants and God is that, for everyone not just one person. He is not hiding from you, but you are hiding from Him. Only when you really desire Him and give Him your love will He reveal Himself too you. All that exists is God, everything else is nothing.


Hmmm... I have some questions. Ofcourse god cannot force people to choose him, 'he' has proven he has no force on anything. You may pray for something, or bad things occur on the earth, but how does god show he truely cares when he dosnt do anything about it. You said "He wants you to choose Him because you love Him and you want only Him" Ah, so only _you _want him, you NEED him because you need someone to show you unconsitional love, because maybe you have never expiernced it with someone who actually exists, but what you are really doing is finding love within yourself, because the religious god dosnt exist within us. "If you have god you have everything" So a person with nothing, can have everything with the belief of an invisible deity??? Your completely off, people who have everything are the people that work hard for what they have, and dont except to be hit with miracles, just by simply asking or believing. You learn how to fish and you survive, you pray for a fish and you die of starvation. Also what you said about not having real happiness in real existing relashionships is bullshit. I think people like you must not have healthy relashionships in your life, so you turn to god for love, but what love are you truely resieving if nothing is there? God is an invisible friend for those who feel less than or unloved in life. 
`God and science go hand in hand. Science is how God made the universe`
Sorry but thats saying hot is cold. Science is NOT how god made the universe. Science is evolution and the how nature works, and i agree it is perfect how it all works, but that dosnt mean you should worship a god, worship nature for its true brilliance. 
I am happy because im strong enough to not need imaginary support, all i have is myself and my relashionships with the people i love, and actually exist. 
Your thinking is truely unhealthy if you think true happiness is only found in god, you are MISTAKEN.


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## morgentaler (Nov 28, 2009)

sunshine17542 said:


> I don't belong to any religion.


Funny, because you keep talking about your deity exactly as though you were a Christian.

"God is love." "Man was made in God's image." "God gave us free will" and we can't see him because we've blocked him out.

And even if you're not just blatantly pulling some common themes from Christianity, you're making specific claims about the truth of those beliefs (edit: devoid of any evidence but personal faith that is it so). And that is religion.


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## morgentaler (Nov 28, 2009)

sunshine17542 said:


> It sounds like you have a lot of hate in you. As in the other thread I have said what I needed to say. I guess I will let "reality" hit me on the way out.


I have absolutely no respect for bullshit claims of any form.

If you tell me the best way to grow pot is with hydrogen cyanide and thermite, I'm going to call you on it.

If you blather on about the benefits of adhering to mythology created by primitive man, and how wonderful it is, I'll call you on that too.

Gods are born of ignorance. And the only way they sustain themselves is by the perpetuation of ignorance. As people look for naturalistic explanations of things, instead of cleaving to the supernatural, gods die.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 29, 2009)

"Gods are born of ignorance. And the only way they sustain themselves is by the perpetuation of ignorance. As people look for naturalistic explanations of things, instead of cleaving to the supernatural, gods die."

Many believe the above harshly worded statement contains kind kernels of truth.

We don't believe all Gods die from Humanities Rapid Acquisition Of Knowledge.

Some evolve, just like Mod Gods and other Deities do.
*
A REAL question for Atheists:*

How do we explain the Unexplainable Whys of Life without acknowledging the Spiritual Realm linked to our Souls?

I am deathly curious as I sincerely want to use my Mind to the best of my ability to think through and completely understand exactly how I can achieve the pure pleasure of Heaven over burning down under that I believe is possible.

We believe many here label themselves Atheists are actually Anti-Theists, which is an entirely different and Darker Species.

Anti-Theists are The God Haters.

We hate haters that spittle in people's faces.


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## anhedonia (Nov 29, 2009)

christ, didnt you watch the video????


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 29, 2009)

Who you calling christ?

How do we explain the Unexplainable Whys of Life without acknowledging the Spiritual Realm linked to our Souls?

The physical, not the spiritual was addressed in your video.

We believe the video's concepts completely.

We cannot explain the unexplainable that exist beyond the Pillars of Hercules except with Myth.


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## morgentaler (Nov 29, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> *
> A REAL question for Atheists:*
> 
> How do we explain the Unexplainable Whys of Life without acknowledging the Spiritual Realm linked to our Souls?


You don't explain the unexplainable. Hence the whole "unexplainable".
When you claim to explain the unexplainable, that's illogical, arrogant, and usually the first step before asking for money or the creation of a temple.



> We believe many here label themselves Atheists are actually Anti-Theists, which is an entirely different and Darker Species.
> Anti-Theists are The God Haters.


Anti-Theists are against organized religion.

But they don't hate gods, because gods don't exist. Now if these make believe gods existed, and actually acted in the ways their believers and scriptures represented, it would be completely understandable why anyone would hate such a thing.

Or would you gladly forgive someone that would destroy everyone you know, give them into slavery, or offer them up to be raped as a reward for obedience?


I swear, I think you ask some of these questions because you know I'll be on them like a pit-bull


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 29, 2009)

Atheists don't hate gods, because gods don't exist.

Anti-Theists believe differently.

If you would, please compare and contrast:

against organized religion &#8800; God Haters

active opposition to theism = God Haters


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## anhedonia (Nov 29, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> Who you calling christ?
> 
> How do we explain the Unexplainable Whys of Life without acknowledging the Spiritual Realm linked to our Souls?
> 
> ...


If you notice the title, its called the biology of enlightenment. You think enlightenment isnt spiritual?? LOL. Don't get out much?


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 29, 2009)

"You think enlightenment isnt spiritual?? LOL. Don't get out much?"

Please don't be mean.

Open your mind.

Never did I indicate

enlightenment &#8800; Spriitment

We believe we are more Spiritual than most.

I personally have been described as a super-secret secular scientist

that is more Spiritual than most.


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## Vindicated (Nov 29, 2009)

A super-secret secular scientist? Oh that sounds like cool club. What do you have to do to join?


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## fulbright (Nov 29, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> Who you calling christ?
> 
> *How do we explain the Unexplainable Whys of Life without acknowledging the Spiritual Realm linked to our Souls?*
> 
> ...


You're making the assumption that there _is_ a spiritual realm linked to our souls. I know of no such realm. You, like Plato imagine that we live in a world of shadows, and that reality is beyond what we know.

Do we even _have_ souls? I don't think we do. Doing drugs has convinced me that I am inseparable from my body. Whatever affects my body will affect ME. I AM my physical body.

There is no absolute answer for why. You must believe in something higher than yourself for there to be an absolute answer. You also assume that there IS an answer for the question of Why? Perhaps there is no answer, other than the one we CREATE for ourselves.

Some people will track our science all the way back to the big bang and then point, smirking: "See! Something must of come before the Big Bang -- something must have caused this! God exists!" Why must there be a cause for our effect? Why must the universe, which is SO vast, bow before our reason? I have a very limited understanding of quantum mechanics, I admit, but one of the things I do know, is that the universe doesn't always work as we expect it should.

The truly unexplainable is just that: unexplainable. If we could explain it without pointing to myths and stories, then it would cease to be unexplainable.


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## morgentaler (Nov 29, 2009)

And what IS a soul?

Is it consciousness, or just a speck of energy with some intrinsic religious value?

We can go into the brain and use drugs or physical means to completely alter a person.

Brain damage can wipe out the entirety of a person's personality or memories.

It can leave a person with no functioning cognition, and only autonomic reflexes.

If the soul is not physical and defines who a person is, why can a subdural hemotoma affect it?


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## anhedonia (Nov 29, 2009)

decay is inherent in all component things. The Buddha taught this.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 30, 2009)

We believe our souls are composed of many physical and spiritual things, including our awareness and a spot of energy with some intrinsic link to somewhere else and time.

Our souls are affected but not destroyed by brain damage.

Being a Super Secret Secularist (SSS) member proves helpful under certain overpowering authoritarian religious situations.

What exactly is "a world of shadows" in YOUR reality?

"You must believe in something higher than yourself for there to be an absolute answer".

We believe in our Higher Powers.

Perhaps the answer to the question of Why is no other than the one we CREATE for ourselves.

Even if an SSS member or anyone else on the Internet did claim something as Ludacris as ""See! Something must of come before the Big Bang -- something must have caused this! God exists!" , it doesn't matter to us, other than we are happy they are happy. 

"If we could explain it without pointing to myths and stories, then it would cease to be unexplainable."

and also Human.


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## fulbright (Nov 30, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> We believe our souls are composed of many physical and spiritual things, including our awareness and a spot of energy with some intrinsic link to somewhere else and time.
> 
> Our souls are affected but not destroyed by brain damage.
> 
> ...


I brought up absolute answers and higher powers, because most people imagine them up to give themselves answers to WHY. They are weak. Rather than carve out their own why, they turn to someone else: "Tell me why I'm here!"

The journalistic questions: who, what, when, where, why, how -- are often answered by the weak-willed with god.

You must either worship a god, or become one. I choose to become one. Does god (assuming he exists), being the highest power he must know, have a why given to him? Of course not. He creates one.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Nov 30, 2009)

SSS members believe in carving our our own whys by challenging the whys of the world with science.

We do not need to prove why we believe Humanity has a soul.

You believe what you want. 

We have no interest in altering your thoughts ,although we already have.

We've read Plato long ago, and believe in the power of Light.

What exactly is "a world of shadows" in YOUR reality?

Have YOU ever been persecuted for your beliefs?

I and I believe Humanity is a manifestation of God and God is a manifestation of Humanity.

How many Gods can Humanity manifest?

How many things can a God be?

Can Gods not worship Gods?

The journalistic questions: who, what, when, where, why, how -- are ultimately unexplainable.


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## anhedonia (Nov 30, 2009)

There are no stupid questions. Only legions of inquiring idiots.


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## fulbright (Nov 30, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> SSS members believe in carving our our own whys by challenging the whys of the world with science.
> 
> We do not need to prove why we believe Humanity has a soul.
> 
> ...


obviously you're not really going anywhere with this.

I'll leave you alone with your' pseudo-wise, vague statements.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 1, 2009)

"I choose to become one"

OK God,

of course you don't need to prove anything to us either..

that's what makes you such a good God.

Show us YOUR waters and We will decide what to drink.

obviously you're not really going anywhere with this.

What do the spiritual beliefs of SSS members have to do with being scientists?

We enjoy carving out our own Whys of the world by challenging existing whys we deem worthy of challenging.

We get to do that because we enjoy changing rules.

I and I were wrong, BTW.

Misotheists are God Haters.

Antitheists are merely antipathetic.

Are Misotheists lurking in RIU's shadows?


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## fulbright (Dec 1, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> "I choose to become one"
> 
> OK God,
> 
> ...



You misinterpret my comment. I said god, not God. The lowercase g was intentional, because there is a difference.

I don't know if you're familiar with Master-Slave Morality, as put forth by Nietzsche, but here's a wiki link to refresh your memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master-slave_morality

Master morality is a god's morality.

If you take away a god's phenomenal power, what do you have? You have the human mind, the "I", the self.

So thus I choose to be a god. I make my own morality. I make my own why.

I apologize for insulting you. I find your comments frustratingly vague at times, and it's hard to carry on a discussion with vagueness. Even so, I apologize.

Earlier you asked the question of atheists: "How do we explain the Unexplainable Whys of Life without acknowledging the Spiritual Realm linked to our Souls?"

This question assumes there is a spiritual realm and a soul. But I don't believe in spiritual realms or souls. With your question posed to atheists as it is, you seem to expect us to believe in those things, as you do. I'm curious as to why you expect that. Why should I believe I have this nebulous thing called a soul? What will point me to evidence of it's existence?


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## Brazko (Dec 1, 2009)

I've been saying it for years that Buddhist Masters should not be so vague in their teachings, but should literally spell out enlightenment to the student that way they become enlighten then instead of forty years down the road trying to figure out some vague meaning? Another thing is, does enlightenment truly exist? Has there ever been someone to prove enlightenment factual? The oldest and wisest Buddha will say themselves they are searching for enlightenment still after a 100yrs of practice. Its all bologna I feel. Enlightenment is simply information you didn't have before. Buddhism is a rip off, Just give the information needed so we can all be enlightened..GeeeeeEeeze


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## PadawanBater (Dec 1, 2009)

fulbright said:


> I find your comments frustratingly vague at times, and it's hard to carry on a discussion with vagueness.


I have a very similar experience with Hippie. The vagueness kills me!


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## OregonMeds (Dec 1, 2009)

"Are Misotheists lurking in RIU's shadows?"

I've never seen any. You have to fist believe in god AND then hate him to be a misotheist, to me and probably to most people that sounds even more rediculous than normal happy believers.


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## morgentaler (Dec 1, 2009)

Have you ever listened to someone with severe schizophrenia talk?
I see the similarities it in almost every one of WHs posts.
I still haven't figured out if they're trying to appeared unbiased and philosophical, or are in need of MRIs to look for toxoplasma gondii infestation in the brain.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 1, 2009)

OK Mr. god,

Please accept my apologies for getting the G wrong the first time.

Thank you for the Nietzsche refresher.

I and I did not agree with everything he believed the first time we knew of his work.

I find that a problem with most any particular viewpoint.

There is always the ying and the yang of everything.

Surely there were repercussions from a sea being parted?

BTW, rest assured, no apologies for offense are needed in civilized discussions.

"How do we explain the Unexplainable Whys of Life without acknowledging the Spiritual Realm linked to our Souls?" was a question not directed necessarily for YOUR ego, even though you read it, but rather other SSS members in particular.

"You have to fist believe in god AND then hate him to be a misotheist" - I don't care what it takes to be a God Hater.


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## qptyqpty (Dec 1, 2009)

Long post inc 





> *Ofcourse i wish there was an all-knowing powerfull caring and loving creator that loves me, knows my path in life ( and every other 6 billion of us). But you have to know when to tell fact from fiction and this myth clearly. I know alot of people believe in god because they are affraid of death(like most of us are)*


If you want to think about it, as an atheist, your parents were your creator. Also, every day your body continues to replenish cells, you grow hair, your squamous cells create oils, etc. So kind of like a Buddhist, your body really is your temple. If you nourish your body, you are armed with a healthy immune system, an alert mind, and strong body. However, if you do not take care of your temple, it will slowly crumble, your mind will be weak and you would be more susceptible to disease. You care about yourself, and you should love yourself. Im not talking gushy gushy or figuratively. Im saying how can you love or take care of anyone unless you can take care of yourself? Once you stop, take a look around, and decide where you are going (set goals), you become the master of your future. 

Telling fact from fiction in the King James Bible, for instance, is hairy. Why? Because it depends on whether you are reading the Bible or _being read._ See, too often people hang on every little word in the bible, not realizing it is an organic translation -- in that it is STILL being added to (or attempting) and changed or new scrolls are found. It has been edited and translated over history since it was created, by many different scribes. If you read the bible in its entirety (I have, I made it a point, and I read it in 3 weeks. I cannot recall everything but I have at least read the entire KJ bible) you will realize that there is indeed stuff missing, stuff that doesnt seem to belong, and contradictions. As a critical thinker, anything that seems bunk ill just dismiss. For instance: circumcision is/was required for Judaism, for religious reasons im sure, but Dont you think it might have something to do with public health? Removing the foreskin was a sanitary issue since people did not bathe often as they should have. (See black plague) The act of not eating swine (cloven hoof) is also probably best explained that if not cooked thoroughly at 160deg, you will get E. coli and die. People in charge knew if ppl ate bad pig they could die, so it was probably written in. 

You can say I believe in what the Bible is meant for; a guide to life that will keep you going forward in life, giving you something to believe in DESPITE all the tragedies and horrors in life. 





> *I dont know how people can believe all of these lies. I mean, if all the evidence you has is a man-written bible, i dont understand why im destined for hell just for not having faith and turning my life over to be a follower of god. I mean, its just common knowledge not to believe, i think. But clearly many think other wise.*



A lot of people have become non-thinking slug brains, sadly. They don't vote, only strive to gain low-wage jobs, offer nothing to the community, and sit on their laissez-faire asses blaming everyone else for their problems. It's ok though, because this was the intent of our beloved PTB; retard our minds with endless entertainment and convenience novelties. So, if you are not a part of that group, continue reading. The bible was written in verses that was easy to understand for readers of that age. The first part of the bible is basically history and chronology. A bunch of old people who nobody knows, but the entire family tree and how things came to be. We find that humans are inherently stupid, God punishes the shit out of them for doing stupid shit and not believing. Then, only when his wrath is made known, do the Jews get back to believing. Of course, being that we are human and prone to err, they got right back to doing stupid shit. So we rinse and repeat this over several hundreds of years, and finally, we get into the latter half of the bible. Jesus comes into the picture, and everyone is like what up brah! Son of God, yah! He does some good things for the people and tells people how to live their lives in peace and for good. He extemporaneously spoke in parables, or stories, so that the really stupid people (they couldnt help it) could understand. (Jesus invented K.I.S.S.  ) and then, of course, he had to be mocked, ridiculed, and killed because the non-believers had to PERSECUTE him. Now, it was at this point God was really going to do it in for us, but Jesus was like: Dad, they are stupid. They can't help it, and if youre going to kill everyone for being stupid, then I am going to go FOR the rest of them, if they will believe that I did this FOR THEM. So God was like, thats deep. so be it. And so, since we arent all God's little chosen ones by birth/ancestry (technicality eh?), Christianity (Mainstreamed by Constantine the Great) was the availability of salvation for those who were not Jewish. All you had to do was believe that God's son gave his life for us for our errant ways. (I finish going over the bible because I dont feel like it)

So thats kinda a long synopsis. The bible is a collection of parables, stories, historical "data", letters from prison... all translated over a LOT of years. If you have a critical mind, even if you DO believe in religion, you would not believe _everything_ that is written, bible or not. ...nor everything you see on TV or hear on the radio.

"...Israel must be wiped off the map." -Ahmedinejad

This CNN translation is bullshit, being that the actual Farsi translation of whatever he said was

"[The] Zionist regime _should_ be wiped off the map." -note VERB.

We cant even translate news correctly this day and age. It's not common sense but the bible is a guide not a commandment.



> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva]*If god really has power on the world, why do we face poverty, murder, war, flesh eating diseases, cancer, global warming, child abuse, dictatorship, racism and sexism, slavery.. the list goes on and on.
> Why havnt any of these critical issues changed? Why hasnt god saved any of them?
> You say you can talk to the guy, so i'd be interested to hear you think.*[/FONT]



Well, going back to the first half of the bible... people are inherently stupid knuckleheads who dont want to follow rules - naturally. We are built that way. God used to interfere, and though we would listen for a few years, we would always go back to our errant ways. Just like a dad having to whoop some ass on a boy for doing stupid shit, he kept having to do it over and over til his son sacrificed himself for us. So, I think that pissed God off a little bit. Would you talk to us? If you were in his shoes? I think he is letting humans fuck over other humans as a lesson learned. Actually, this very well could be the end days. (Of course, the universe is cyclical, with positive and negative influences affecting everything over thousands of years cycles. Hindu, Christianity, Catholicism, Egyptians, Mayan, Incas, and others believed in these cycles. ...and we are reaching the end of a major cycle.) Then again, im not the guy holding the "Jesus is Coming" sign. Im not a stomper, nor am I trying to hammer religion into your throat, just offering a different view. =)


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## morgentaler (Dec 1, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> I don't care what it takes to be a God Hater.


It would seem that the biblical writings would indicate "God" is a man hater.

Man, in the general mankind use of the word. We're all aware that he has a special hatred for women that exceeds any general distaste for his "creations".


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 1, 2009)

qptyqpty writes what I and I mean much more eloquently.

Everything is Kind Of Like that.


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## Vindicated (Dec 1, 2009)

It's not vague, it's just half the time she isn't making any sense. lol. -- Sorry Hippie, but I'm just calling it as I see it. 

@Brazko: Once I talked to a Buddhist monk and he told me, 'all that we need to know, is already known.' The Buddhist lifestyle is not about progression, but preserving the Buddhist way as it was hundreds of years ago. There is no point in change. I strongly disagree with this position, but at least I understand it. 

@qptyqpty, Don't act like farsi is easy to translate. Most words don't translate perfectly to english. And you can debate for eternity the exact interpretation of what he said. Still, if you stand back, does it really make a difference whether he said Must or Should. His message was as clear as day.


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## ThaDutchieCouple (Dec 3, 2009)

qptyqpty said:


> Long post inc
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The problem is that the people who worship the bible do take pretty much everything it says as truth, the word of god himself. The bibles passage about gays and how it forbids has left gays out, almost as if they arnt citizens, around the world. We live in the 20th century and the human race still run their lives, and in many cases dedicates their life in entirety from a book over 16000 years old (that clearly wasnt written by god, but a man) Just like the jolly George Bush who said "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God" 
I mean are you serious?? Having faith is not thinking. Thinking you already have the answers. Not only to say how much blood has been shed over religion.
Thanks for your view, but id rather stick to mine. I will not under mind the power of nature, to the works of a higher deity, i am much rather interested in searching for the real answers that lie in our planet and universe. I have set my life journey to be to take out the rubbish that religion has enslaved into minds. But rather show people the miraculous ways of our world and nature and the universe, and give insite to live a life faithless and free, not living with the mind set you are being watched at all times, and must follow rules. I hope to show children the light of NOT believing, and the wonderful way of atheism/free thinking. People need to show more love towards one another instead of an invisible deity. Our world is full of anger and negative energy even though the biggest population is those who believe in the supernatural, and some form of God.. .How about we try a new approach, love those who exist!! Instead of children being indoctrinated into a belief that has absolutely no point, or does anything good for our existing planet, except waste resources, money and time.


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## 562FireK (Dec 3, 2009)

I don't like the word religion. When I think of religion, I just think of all these people following the false words of a man. They're not following the words of god. Total bullshit. When I was younger, and still pretty much hated the fact that I was gay, I went to a lot of different churches, and was basically told, the way I am, is wrong and I'm going to hell. Not a great thing to hear when you're already a depressed lil kid. Lol 
I believe there's a god, but I can't in my right mind believe the views of such hypocritical people. 
I was walking down Venice Beach once, and there were some pretty chill lookin buddhists just postin', praying and minding their own business. Than I see these church people go up and they start telling them their beliefs are wrong, and try to throw their own beliefs at them. I just really thought that was wrong, I wanted to go break their faces. Lol


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## sunshine1754 (Dec 3, 2009)

562FireK said:


> I don't like the word religion. When I think of religion, I just think of all these people following the false words of a man. They're not following the words of god. Total bullshit. When I was younger, and still pretty much hated the fact that I was gay, I went to a lot of different churches, and was basically told, the way I am, is wrong and I'm going to hell. Not a great thing to hear when you're already a depressed lil kid. Lol
> I believe there's a god, but I can't in my right mind believe the views of such hypocritical people.
> I was walking down Venice Beach once, and there were some pretty chill lookin buddhists just postin', praying and minding their own business. Than I see these church people go up and they start telling them their beliefs are wrong, and try to throw their own beliefs at them. I just really thought that was wrong, I wanted to go break their faces. Lol


God loves everyone.


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## 562FireK (Dec 3, 2009)

sunshine1754 said:


> God loves everyone.


I completely agree, but religion doesn't.


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## sunshine1754 (Dec 3, 2009)

ThaDutchieCouple said:


> Hmmm... I have some questions. Ofcourse god cannot force people to choose him, 'he' has proven he has no force on anything. You may pray for something, or bad things occur on the earth, but how does god show he truely cares when he dosnt do anything about it. You said "He wants you to choose Him because you love Him and you want only Him" Ah, so only _you _want him, you NEED him because you need someone to show you unconsitional love, because maybe you have never expiernced it with someone who actually exists, but what you are really doing is finding love within yourself, because the religious god dosnt exist within us. "If you have god you have everything" So a person with nothing, can have everything with the belief of an invisible deity??? Your completely off, people who have everything are the people that work hard for what they have, and dont except to be hit with miracles, just by simply asking or believing. You learn how to fish and you survive, you pray for a fish and you die of starvation. Also what you said about not having real happiness in real existing relashionships is bullshit. I think people like you must not have healthy relashionships in your life, so you turn to god for love, but what love are you truely resieving if nothing is there? God is an invisible friend for those who feel less than or unloved in life.
> `God and science go hand in hand. Science is how God made the universe`
> Sorry but thats saying hot is cold. Science is NOT how god made the universe. Science is evolution and the how nature works, and i agree it is perfect how it all works, but that dosnt mean you should worship a god, worship nature for its true brilliance.
> I am happy because im strong enough to not need imaginary support, all i have is myself and my relashionships with the people i love, and actually exist.
> Your thinking is truely unhealthy if you think true happiness is only found in god, you are MISTAKEN.


My parents and brother and friends love me unconditionally. Real love is unconditional. The love that you experience from the people that love you is apart of God. Don't be fooled by material possessions. If you have God you really do have everything. God is all that exists.


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## sunshine1754 (Dec 3, 2009)

562FireK said:


> I completely agree, but religion doesn't.


Religion can be good if people choose it to be good. They can also make it bad.


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## Keenly (Dec 3, 2009)

you can go ahead and say god is all that exists but according to me, there is much much more out there than a religion where you are told what to do and told how to feel about things7


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## sunshine1754 (Dec 3, 2009)

So where did everything come from? Science tells us that the universe was created from the Big Bang, which isn't wrong. It took a very short time to happen. Like millionths of a second and everything was created. Everything was born from the consciousness of God. Don't tell me that nothing was sitting there doing nothing and all of a sudden nothing decided to do something to create the universe. The universe is perfect only God could create such a place. Life comes from life, life doesn't come from nothing.


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## OregonMeds (Dec 3, 2009)

sunshine1754 said:


> So where did everything come from? Science tells us that the universe was created from the Big Bang, which isn't wrong. It took a very short time to happen. Like millionths of a second and everything was created. Everything was born from the consciousness of God. Don't tell me that nothing was sitting there doing nothing and all of a sudden nothing decided to do something to create the universe. The universe is perfect only God could create such a place. Life comes from life, life doesn't come from nothing.


Check your own signature for the origins of the universe replacing the meaning you think it has with the idea that matter and energy are both forever. They can be changed and manipulated but neither is ever permanently destroyed. Everything that makes us and the universe always was, and always will be and will be recycled for infinity in a never ending cycle of universes expanding and contracting. No need for a god, and there never was one.

***************************************************
The big bang is just a cycle of expansion and contraction, not at all a beginning of matter and energy. It's recycling on a universe sized scale. It doesn't need anyones intervention to start or continue, nor does life need anyones intervention to start or continue. All life from single celled organisms to us is simply nothing more than a virus or bacteria. Forming, spreading, adapting, and evolving with a basically unlimited amount of time to mutate into anything possible and infest anything habitable, ultimately all being recycled along with the galaxy's they infest.

In the grand scheme of things we mean absolutely nothing. A thought many people just aren't comfortable with.

***************************************************


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## sunshine1754 (Dec 3, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> Check your own signature for the origins of the universe replacing the meaning you think it has with the idea that matter and energy are both forever. They can be changed and manipulated but neither is ever permanently destroyed. Everything that makes us and the universe always was, and always will be and will be recycled for infinity in a never ending cycle of universes expanding and contracting. No need for a god, and there never was one.
> 
> ***************************************************
> The big bang is just a cycle of expansion and contraction, not at all a beginning of matter and energy. It's recycling on a universe sized scale.
> ***************************************************


hahahahahahahaha!


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## Vindicated (Dec 3, 2009)

OregonMeds, that's almost right. It would be more accurate to say that that when the expansion occurred, it broke supersymmetry, and time began. Currently there is no contraction going on. Space is continuing to expand at a faster rate then when it first started. However, there is debate about what will happen once the acceleration runs out of steam. It may contract like you say, or it may continue to expand and end until space tares itself apart (big crunch). 

Sorry if it seems like I'm nit picking. 

sunshine1754, I think you may have gotten your incorrect facts from a creationist. Only the creationist believe that everything was created in seconds. The rest of us who look at the facts see that it took billions of years. 13.7 billion years to be exact.


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## OregonMeds (Dec 3, 2009)

Vin I don't believe there ever was a beginning, I have a slightly different opinion than standard big bang theories. 

IMHO There are simultaneously an infinite (to us) number of galaxies in various stages of existence filling all areas of space. Think of them as galactic sized cells in a body all floating around, except a body that can't expand in it's entirety because it already fills everywhere. Some cells either must be crushed as others expand or as one shrinks others are pulled and expand to fill the same space.

Never ever a beginning or an end to the whole thing.


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## morgentaler (Dec 3, 2009)

sunshine1754 said:


> hahahahahahahaha!


Religious hysteria manifests in many forms. In this case incomprehension = laughter.


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## PadawanBater (Dec 3, 2009)

Vindicated said:


> OregonMeds, that's almost right. It would be more accurate to say that that when the expansion occurred, it broke supersymmetry, and time began. Currently there is no contraction going on. Space is continuing to expand at a faster rate then when it first started. However, there is debate about what will happen once the acceleration runs out of steam. It may contract like you say, or it may continue to expand and end until space tares itself apart *(big crunch). *
> 
> Sorry if it seems like I'm nit picking.


I believe that's called _the big rip*. *_The big crunch is when the gravity overpowers the dark matter and everything contracts, what you just desrcibed. 

I guess we're all nitpickers eh? lol


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## Vindicated (Dec 3, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> Vin I don't believe there ever was a beginning, I have a slightly different opinion than standard big bang theories.
> 
> IMHO There are simultaneously an infinite (to us) number of galaxies in various stages of existence filling all areas of space. Think of them as galactic sized cells in a body all floating around, except a body that can't expand in it's entirety because it already fills everywhere. Some cells either must be crushed as others expand or as one shrinks others are pulled and expand to fill the same space.
> 
> Never ever a beginning or an end to the whole thing.


I understand the multiverse theory very well. It's a very interesting hypothesis that is getting a lot of funding right now. I just read Dr. Michio Kaku's Science of the Impossible and boy is it a good read. Byrian Greene is also a big advocate of the multiverse theory (aka string theory / M theory). 

If you stop by a barns and nobel pick up any book by Dr. Michio Kaku, you're sure to love it. Greene unfortunately is a bore and you have to be a science nut to appreciate his work -- but if your up to it, its pretty enlightening too. 

I also happen to be a Steven Hawking fanboy. Hell, we're talking about a modern day Darwin / Einstein. If you haven't read his book, you don't know shit. He is the standard of scientist thought right now. The only thing that disappoints me about Stephen Hawking is that he's to safe with his opinion. He such a good guy he doesn't want to offend anyone and leaves every possibility open. 

It an understandable that point of view, but sometimes I think we need to acknowledge reality and just admit what he know verse what we like to image to be. 

String theory is a perfect example of what we want to image. It's so cutting edge that the ideas expressed are practically dogmatic. If you accept string theory / m theory full face right now, IMO your no different then a theist (which isn't a negative, but isn't science either).

I also want to make it clear I wasn't intending to make you sound less credible, but I do feel strongly pointing out fact from personal opinion. You have every right to believe what you will, just please be careful to differentiate what's your opinion verse what's factual.


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## Vindicated (Dec 3, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> I believe that's called _the big rip*. *_The big crunch is when the gravity overpowers the dark matter and everything contracts, what you just desrcibed.
> 
> I guess we're all nitpickers eh? lol


Oh you got me. I should have proof read that and caught it. But thank you for correcting me. I really thought i typed big rip, I must have deleted it by mistake. 

Bah, embarrassing moment for sure.


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## OregonMeds (Dec 3, 2009)

Vindicated said:


> I understand the multiverse theory very well. It's a very interesting hypothesis that is getting a lot of funding right now. I just read Dr. Michio Kaku's Science of the Impossible and boy is it a good read. Byrian Greene is also a big advocate of the multiverse theory (aka string theory / M theory).
> 
> If you stop by a barns and nobel pick up any book by Dr. Michio Kaku, you're sure to love it. Greene unfortunately is a bore and you have to be a science nut to appreciate his work -- but if your up to it, its pretty enlightening too.
> 
> ...


I'm familiar with them all yes, except I have such a horrible memory problem I actually retain very little. Shame really.

Oh and funny thing I didn't read Steven Hawking, I listened to his "voice" tape online. Very interesting. I have been meaning to get to his book.


I don't feel like anything I proposed there really needs to be prefaced with that "it's my opinion", that's just a given due to the subject matter. I feel it's fact I state it as fact but we all know the deal. Well most of us. Ok some of us.
I did add a IMHO on that second post though.


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## Vindicated (Dec 3, 2009)

You gotta point there. 

I concede.


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## PadawanBater (Dec 3, 2009)

Vindicated said:


> Oh you got me. I should have proof read that and caught it. But thank you for correcting me. I really thought i typed big rip, I must have deleted it by mistake.
> 
> Bah, embarrassing moment for sure.


No prob. I figured it was just a typo, you got everything else right in your post.


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## PadawanBater (Dec 3, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> I'm familiar with them all yes, except I have such a horrible memory problem I actually retain very little. Shame really.


Dude, I have this same problem. Highlighters have become my best friend!


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## sunshine1754 (Dec 4, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Religious hysteria manifests in many forms. In this case incomprehension = laughter.


You are apart of God!  ....... I told you the truth I'm not religious, I don't like classifying myself.


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## sunshine1754 (Dec 4, 2009)

Vindicated said:


> sunshine1754, I think you may have gotten your incorrect facts from a creationist. Only the creationist believe that everything was created in seconds. The rest of us who look at the facts see that it took billions of years. 13.7 billion years to be exact.


Look mister sister the universe is 13.7 billion years old, you don't think I know that? The further you look out into space the further you look back into time. The bang in the big bang happened in millionths of a second. Thats when the universe grew and got bigger. All the energy everyone is talking about comes from God. Its really very simple, but everyone makes it so complicated. Maybe you are all just new souls and just don't get it. You have all the proof you need. God is in you, just look a little harder.


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## ThaDutchieCouple (Dec 4, 2009)

sunshine1754 said:


> So where did everything come from? Science tells us that the universe was created from the Big Bang, which isn't wrong. It took a very short time to happen. Like millionths of a second and everything was created. Everything was born from the consciousness of God. Don't tell me that nothing was sitting there doing nothing and all of a sudden nothing decided to do something to create the universe. The universe is perfect only God could create such a place. Life comes from life, life doesn't come from nothing.



If god created the universe WHO/WHAT created god?
Was he just sitting there for eternity waiting for a big bang to come so he can create animals and humans to walk the planet, to watch over and guide each and every single one of the humans on this earth? Silliness. Since when is god life? I'm so sick of people like you giving credit to a invisible deity for the wonders of our world. The credit should be given to the WORLD we live in, because its Nature not god who is the one we should worship. But instead everyone (almost everyone) gets the facts wrong, and instead of giving that love to the earth, they give it to something that has no proof of existence, nor does it care if you step out in front of a bus and die because its self will, not gods will that runs your life. Now the earth is almost viewed like a waiting room, trashed and burned like its nothing. People don't care how they treat the planet because their mind is set that there is a better place than here, and the world will be ended by god/jesus any day now... but really you have it wrong, and it should be nature that gets the wonderful treatment god gets not the other way around. 
I believe we are all 'god' and its not because a deity is inside of us, its because I am all that I have, and I choose my way in life, and how I want to live, not a god.


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## PadawanBater (Dec 4, 2009)

sunshine1754 said:


> Look mister sister the universe is 13.7 billion years old, you don't think I know that? The further you look out into space the further you look back into time. The bang in the big bang happened in millionths of a second. Thats when the universe grew and got bigger. All the energy everyone is talking about comes from God. Its really very simple, but everyone makes it so complicated. Maybe you are all just new souls and just don't get it. You have all the proof you need.* God is in you, just look a little harder.*[/QUOTE]
> 
> That's right about where you lost me...
> 
> ...


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## Vindicated (Dec 5, 2009)

sunshine1754 said:


> The bang in the big bang happened in millionths of a second. Thats when the universe grew and got bigger. All the energy everyone is talking about comes from God. Its really very simple


Saying "God did it" quiet frankly is a cop out. The same argument was raised by the church when Copernacious put the sun at the center of the universe. People said he was wrong and believed sooner or later that someone would prove mathematically that he really was wrong -- that day never came. 

Since everyone _knew_ "God did it," anything contrary was a moot issue. After all, why fund research when you already "know" what happened? I'm glade you accept the age of the universe. I was thinking you were a creationist for a moment. However, knowing _how_ "God did it" is a very interesting and worth while discussion. 

What's also interesting, is the more we learn about our universe, the further back in chain we end up putting God. 

To quote the bible "_First God made heaven & earth 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light._ "

You can play games of semantics and say heaven ment sky or whatever the hell you want to think. But what we can't deny is the order in which things took place. The bible says Heave and Earth was first. Created in darkness. And then light appeared. 

When actually, the exact opposite occurred. First there was the Grand Unification Theory epoch where matter and antimatter first formed and caused a giant explosion of energy. It wasn't until 300,000 years AFTER the initiate start of the explanation of the universe that space became transparent or "dark" -- 1,000 million years later we get the first generation of stars. Then 15,000 million years later we see the first solar system... and eventually Earth. 

Even when we ignore time. It still doesn't match the story of Genesis. But who knows, maybe God is a prankster and will someday appear to us all and say "Haha, Gotcha ya bitches!" But until then, I'll stick to facts & reason.


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## sunshine1754 (Dec 5, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> sunshine1754 said:
> 
> 
> > Look mister sister the universe is 13.7 billion years old, you don't think I know that? The further you look out into space the further you look back into time. The bang in the big bang happened in millionths of a second. Thats when the universe grew and got bigger. All the energy everyone is talking about comes from God. Its really very simple, but everyone makes it so complicated. Maybe you are all just new souls and just don't get it. You have all the proof you need.* God is in you, just look a little harder.*[/QUOTE]
> ...


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## fish601 (Dec 5, 2009)

ThaDutchieCouple said:


> *[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva]If god really has power on the world, why do we face poverty, murder, war, flesh eating diseases, cancer, global warming, child abuse, dictatorship, racism and sexism, slavery.. [/FONT]*
> 
> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva]**[/FONT]


 
without evil there could be no good. 

Its his perfect plan... 
you just be your own god, wheres that gona get you?


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## krustofskie (Dec 6, 2009)

fish601 said:


> without evil there could be no good.
> 
> Its his perfect plan...
> you just be your own god, wheres that gona get you?


good and evil is a man made concept. No god needed for either. We do not get our morals from god, otherwise we would all have the same morals, empathy would better explain why we wouldn't treat others badly. 

Where is believing in 'your' god going to get us? The same place as being your own god, that's where, nowhere.


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## PadawanBater (Dec 6, 2009)

*Yes it is not easy!!! You have to look at yourself. It's something you just have to realize on your own, but you have to at least try if you want proof. 

*What do you think I've been doing for the past (at least) 9 years, and the past 4 of those *specifically searching for the best answers I can find, *being totally aware of the questions I was looking to answer? Don't give me that. That's not acceptable to me as I've done nothing but try to the best of my ability to search for honest answers to these questions.

*To find God you kind of have to stop paying attention to your 5 senses. 

*Sunshine, I cannot abandon any of my senses, even if I wanted to, neither can you. Everything you experience, everything that makes you up as a person is via your perception of interactions between you, those 5 senses, and the real world. You know what I hear when someone tells me I must abandon the very things I use to determine reality... to determine reality? - "believe me"... not very persuasive.


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## OregonMeds (Dec 6, 2009)

Sunshine if you abandon your 5 senses and rational objective thought you can actually believe in anything and once you really believe you can physically feel it even if it's not there. 


I challenge you specifically but all believers to do one single thing. Watch the movie "Letting go of God" by Julia Sweeney all the way through without shutting off any of your senses and actually paying attention the whole way though. 

Don't worry, it's a very enjoyable show. Even if you don't agree with a thing in it you will probably actually like it but the reason I suggest it and actually beg you specifically to watch it is so that you will understand where us non believers are actually coming from and how we are thinking and how we came to feel the way we do. 

While most of us athiests were raised religious and seen your side plenty the rest of you have absolutely no experience or clue about our side. Unless you were raised athiest and then found religion you really do owe it to yourself and us to at least watch one movie.

Here is a clip to give you an idea what the show is like, but this is early rehearsal and not nearly as good as the actual show on showtime.
If you prefer fullscreen, since it's a long clip use this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtIyx687ytk
Otherwise:
[Youtube]OtIyx687ytk[/Youtube]


I'm sure none of you will watch it, I know I'm wasting my time, but wow I sure wish you would and then tell us what you think after.









If you have cable, it's on Showtime now and for the next couple months.


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## ThaDutchieCouple (Dec 8, 2009)

fish601 said:


> without evil there could be no good.
> 
> Its his perfect plan...
> you just be your own god, wheres that gona get you?



actually yes without evil, what your left with is good. But there is no good/evil. There is good people who do good things, and bad people who do evil things. 
What perfect plan? Maybe there was a little mixup on gods spread sheet for the plan of life, because obviously the world is far from perfect. 
I could talk for hours upon hours about how being YOUR OWN GOD will get you more places rather than placing the trump card in the hands of an imaginary deity. I wont waste that much time trying to persuade a deluded mind so ill just state the biggest reason.
Having a mind set "God knows my path, he knows whats right, he will guide me in the right direction" Is detrimental to the process of thought, and individualism. Would i ever put myself in the hands of the unknown and put all my energy into something with no proof of existence, loosing my sanity praying and never getting any results, and if it does so happen to come true is it coinsedence or is it god himself granting your petty human wish? NO i would not. I would much rather put myself first, rely on me, and trust in myself, because in the ends thats all you have.


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## ThaDutchieCouple (Dec 8, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> Sunshine if you abandon your 5 senses and rational objective thought you can actually believe in anything and once you really believe you can physically feel it even if it's not there.
> 
> 
> I challenge you specifically but all believers to do one single thing. Watch the movie "Letting go of God" by Julia Sweeney all the way through without shutting off any of your senses and actually paying attention the whole way though.
> ...



I really liked that video, it was a great story she told, she funny.but at the end i thought her outcome was going to be that she becomes an atheist from all the weird shit those door to door guys were saying to her. Good video though.


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## potka (Dec 8, 2009)

sunshine1754 said:


> So where did everything come from? Science tells us that the universe was created from the Big Bang, which isn't wrong. It took a very short time to happen. Like millionths of a second and everything was created. Everything was born from the consciousness of God. Don't tell me that nothing was sitting there doing nothing and all of a sudden nothing decided to do something to create the universe. The universe is perfect only God could create such a place. Life comes from life, life doesn't come from nothing.


 
Then who created god?
or did he just pop up from nothing?
BAM suck on that


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## OregonMeds (Dec 9, 2009)

ThaDutchieCouple said:


> I really liked that video, it was a great story she told, she funny.but at the end i thought her outcome was going to be that she becomes an atheist from all the weird shit those door to door guys were saying to her. Good video though.


Thanks

Maybe you only watched the clip I linked as a sample and not the full video on showtime. Sounds like it.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 9, 2009)

"When I think of religion, I just think of all these people following the false words of a man"

We believe the words We believe are not false. We also don't give a phlying phuck what YOU believe Religion to be, so long as you don't try to make me believe what you believe by shoving it roughly down my throat, or in other words, "Can I please pick my fucking position?"

"you can go ahead and say god is all that exists"

We believe the above is either an incredibly restrictive or an all-inclusive perspective of reality.

"The universe is perfect only God could create such a place. Life comes from life, life doesn't come from nothing. "

We SSS members firmly believe Life comes from Life in this Imperfect Universe.

We also believe we understand the biochemical processes of early life a bit better than most.

Admittingly, we do not understand in the least where the Soul of Life comes from. 

We are hopeful that somewhere in the remaining 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 percent of the Universal Knowledge Humankind has yet to acquire, we will discover That Secret.

"Religious hysteria manifests in many forms. In this case incomprehension = laughter. "

++ rep rep for this one. We are still laughing!


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## BongTokinAlcoholic420 (Dec 9, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8oAGvFxevw


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## kamonra (Jul 10, 2010)

the problem is ... weve been mislead .. so naturally you wont believe a lie .... the truth is the sun is god and the earth is godess.... the big bang or before the big bang ... that point in which all was contained in one point is the the great supreme being .... see only life can produce life .. so therefore that point had to be life ... and if energy cant be created or destroyed .. then that concludes there is only one life form .. that is the supreme being ....which transformed (bigbang explosion) into other lifes suns earth , planets etc.... u see only life can create life . again name one non-life form that can creat life ....see the sun created the earth think about it the sun cooks hydrogen to make helium .. then those two together makes all other elements.... water oxegen carbon etc.... so the sun created us and the earth .. then the sun has to be a life form ....see religion makes you think god has to be some one we can command .. pray for this and pray for that ... nonsense... we are a fraction or a working organism with in the creator(supreme being) remember god is a product of the supreme being ...so me and you are brother and sisters and are gods.. all from the sun god ra .. who is closer to the supreme being .... think about electron protons and neutron all look like planetary systems .. well what do you think the sun and the planets are .. and all other stars that they now know planets orbit around them ...they are also like those electrons protons and neutrons .. on a macro scale... so jesus budha and all those guys were just people like me and you who taught this but unfortunately the romans made sure that was messed up for their control purpose.... and death your people are afraid of it ,... how could god allow so many deaths .. well death is a mere transformation so its not really bad at all to die your energy will be transformed into something else with other purposes..... so when the supreme being kills or god allows death .. it is not because it is a angry god its just sending you somehwere else .....point blank ...and if you want i can break this down for you scientifically and logically .....


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## cavebaby (Jul 14, 2010)

ThaDutchieCouple said:


> *Hi everyone
> 
> If you all havnt relized already, im an athiest. And i dont come by it lighty. I think about it pretty much everyday, its hard not too, if God exists and I choose to be an atheist, then that means when i die I am deliberately choosing torture for eternety, when the other option is to live forever in paradise, hevean.
> 
> ...


I have a feeling this could take a while....


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## anhedonia (Jul 15, 2010)

Funny shit. Thing I admire about Buddhists is that you don't hear any squawking thier heads off about all-encompassing beings. Zen will someday be science I think. Once humans become aware of it. If you want to find out why we never will though, read up on the kali yuga and dharmic cosmology. Man may be too juvinile. I've also heard that were infested with aliens.


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## cavebaby (Jul 15, 2010)

ThaDutchieCouple said:


> *Hi everyone
> 
> If you all havnt relized already, im an athiest. And i dont come by it lighty. I think about it pretty much everyday, its hard not too, if God exists and I choose to be an atheist, then that means when i die I am deliberately choosing torture for eternety, when the other option is to live forever in paradise, hevean.
> 
> ...





anhedonia said:


> Funny shit. Thing I admire about Buddhists is that you don't hear any squawking thier heads off about all-encompassing beings. Zen will someday be science I think. Once humans become aware of it. If you want to find out why we never will though, read up on the kali yuga and dharmic cosmology. Man may be too juvinile. I've also heard that were infested with aliens.


Primary sources please......


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