# is plant rotation really necessary?



## Dboi87 (Aug 5, 2013)

I've been told when growing vertically its best to rotate the plants in order to get even light distribution but would it really make a difference? Leaves never block light they absorb it and use it for food.


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## PuffinTuff420 (Aug 5, 2013)

Depends on how even your light distribution in your set up and how much room the plants have between each other, if both are sufficient then no you don't really need to rotate in my experience. A rule of thumb i go by is (at least) 10,000 lumens per plant and about 6 inches or more between them. if you have taller plants on the outside of the room and the lights are centered then yes deffinetly rotate at least once a day.


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## hyroot (Aug 5, 2013)

You don't have too if you scrog or have multiple bulbs on either side. You don't have to if you don't want. Rotating should be done with all lighting methods. To get the best over all coverage and yield and quality. 

Fyi lumens doesn't mean anything to plants. Lumens by definition is visible light to the human eye. Plants / chlorophyll absorb wave lengths that we don't normally see. Its par you want to measure. Umole/s / watts2


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## Dboi87 (Aug 5, 2013)

Thanks guys. What I have noticed is that they start to seriously lean eventually. Maybe I will start rotating. Even at this point I'm sure i'll have to anchor them down or stake them off so they don't tip


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## Prawn Connery (Aug 6, 2013)

No, you don't have to rotate. All that happens is the plant will grow towards the light and bush up on that side.

Put it this way, in nature, plants don't rotate. And they are nearly always side-lit, as the sun is very rarely overhead (and only for a couple of hours or so each day at the height of summer). For the most part, the sun is always shining at an angle - to the north in the sourthern hemsphere, and to the south in the northern hemisphere - which is why vertical lighting is actually more "natural" than horizontal lighting.

I never rotate and I've been growing vertically for almost 10 years. It's not worth the trouble.


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## Shivaskunk (Aug 6, 2013)

The sun is totally different than an HPS..and it moves all day (well the earth moves) so its hitting the plants from many different angles..vertical and horizontal are equally natural indoors lol although I've found that a combination of the two works very well. So Mr Prawn Connery you are really making the argument for rotating.

If you scrog or train your plants to face your stationary light then you don't necessarily need to rotate..or if you have multiple lights hanging vert then it's less needed..but I promise that if you rotate your plants it will make a difference.

Common sense tells you that even if you get great results not rotating that you are very likely to do better if you do..unless like mentioned above if you train and manipulate the apical meristem growth auxins in order to create a vertical flat canopy. The more bud nodes that you have getting intense light the more bud you get.


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## PuffinTuff420 (Aug 7, 2013)

hyroot said:


> You don't have too if you scrog or have multiple bulbs on either side. You don't have to if you don't want. Rotating should be done with all lighting methods. To get the best over all coverage and yield and quality.
> 
> Fyi lumens doesn't mean anything to plants. Lumens by definition is visible light to the human eye. Plants / chlorophyll absorb wave lengths that we don't normally see. Its par you want to measure. Umole/s / watts2


 Yes PAR means Photosynthetic Active response zone is the part of the light spectrum plant utilizes for growth but that is only a fraction of the lighting equation,same is true with lumens but light intensity is the magnitude of light energy per unit of area. It is greatest near the bulb and diminishes rapidly as it moves away from the source.for example plants two feet away from a lamp recieve one-fourth the amount of light recieved by plant one foot away from light source, an hid that imits 100,000 lumens produces a paltry 25,000 lumens two feet away. a 1000 watt hid that emits 100,000 watt that emits 100,000 initial lumens yields 11,111 lumens 3 feet away. The close marijuana is to a light source, the more PAR watts it recieves and the better it grows, as long as its not too close that heat from the lamp causes burned foliage.the relationship and the light emitted from a point source (bulb) and distance are defined by the inverse square law. This law affirms the intensity of light changes in inverse proportion to the square of distance I=l/d2 Intensity=light output/distance2. 1 lumen is equal to the amount of light emitted by one candle that falls on one square foot of surface one foot away. Lumens emmitted are only one part of the equation. lumens recieved by the plant are much more important. Lumens recieved are measured watts-per-square-foot also known as foot-candles (fc) one foot candle equals the amount of light that falls on one square foot of surface located one foot away from one candle.watts per square foot is easy to calculate but is erroneous way to calculate usable light for a garden. It measures how many watts are available from a light source in an area.mounting height is not considered in watts per square foot, nor does it consider PAR watts or efficiency of the bulb.Calculating foot candles or lux is a more accurate way to estimate the amount of light plants recieve, but it still lacks the precision of a light meter that calculates foot candle or lux. PAR and light spectrum play a huge role in growth rates. Marijuana needs light to grow. the light must have the proper spectrum and intensity to ensure rapid growth. light is comprised of several bands of color. Each color in the spectrum sends the plant a seperate signal each colr in the spectrum promotes a different type of growth. Plants need and use only certain portions of the light spectrum however, and the most important colors in the spectrum for maximum chlorophly production and photosynthesis response are in the blue and red range. The main portiion of light used by plants is between between 400-700 nanometers (nm) this region is called the Photosynthetically active radiation (PAR) zone. PAR watts is the measurement of the actual amount of specific photons a plant needs to grow. Photons are a measure of light energy. Light energy is radiated and and assimilated in photons. Photosynthesis is nesassary for plants to grow is activated by the assimilation of photons. blue photons are worth more PAR watts than red photons, but scientists have difficulty measuring the exact difference.Each color of light triggers different plant functions. Positive tropism, the plant ability to to orient leaves towards light, is controlled by spectrum. while light bulbs will never really be as good for plants as the sun it is sufficient enough.Light is also measured in Keulvin temperature which expresses the exact color a bulb emits (almost always on the box of bulb) bulbs with a kelvin temperature from 3000-6500 are best for growing marijuana. The PAR explains that that plants use specific portions of the light spectrum a complete range from blue to red. Lamps with a spectrum similar to a PAR rated bulb can use Kelvin temperature of a bulb to ascertain the aproximate PAR rating for a bulb. The Color Corrected Temperature (CCT) of a bulb is the peak kelvin temperature at wich the colors in a bulb remain stable. We classify bulbs by thier CCT rating wich tells us the overall color of the light emmited. Companies use a Color Rendering Index (CRI) the higher the CRI the better the bulb is for growing.


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## Hiddenface (Aug 7, 2013)

OMG! WHAT?! The only obvious benefit gained from rotating your plant is stretch and growth. The side with the light will develop faster. I have never experienced an increase in flower (bud) production and its not likely you will either. The only two realistic reasons ,in my experience, for rotating is: (1) you need the stretch for training later on or, (2)you intend to throw those bad girls outdoors later. Otherwise, the bud growth will be maximized daily on the side with the most intense light . Go ahead and try a side by side comparison. Rotate two plants during veg. then switch to flower . Continue swinging one round and round and the other press relatively flat and against the wall with the branches restrained and spread evenly to maximize the light coverage. Please report back with dry weight. Proper training and minor pruning is of course always advised. Results will vary in relation to system situation and possibly bias. "Common sense".........never mind , decided not to touch this one this time.


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## Hiddenface (Aug 7, 2013)

Sorry Dboi87 to answer your question its like Prawn basically said its a waste of time. You would be better off putting the light over head and putting the plant in a smaller enclosure so the reflective material you would attach to the walls would take care of light distribution and side lighting.


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## Prawn Connery (Aug 8, 2013)

Shivaskunk said:


> The sun is totally different than an HPS..and it moves all day (well the earth moves) so its hitting the plants from many different angles.


Indeed the sun does arc from horizon to horizon . . . but it always shines on one side - the south-facing side if you are in the northern hemishere, or the north-facing side if you are in the southern hemisphere. (Different story if you are on the equator - which most of us aren't.)

For example, if you decide to put solar panels on your roof to generate electricity, which direction do you face them? Answer that, and you will confirm what I have been saying all along . . . 




Shivaskunk said:


> but I promise that if you rotate your plants it will make a difference.
> 
> Common sense tells you that even if you get great results not rotating that you are very likely to do better if you do..unless like mentioned above if you train and manipulate the apical meristem growth auxins in order to create a vertical flat canopy.


Actual practice (empirical evidence - not theory) has proven to me different.

Don't think I didn't try rotating my plants when I first started growing vertically almost 10 years ago - I did. Which is why I now know it's a waste of time




Shivaskunk said:


> The more bud nodes that you have getting intense light the more bud you get.


This is correct. But what happens to those nodes when you rotate them AWAY from the light? You get stringy growth - less density - on all sides, because each side is only getting maximum light each time it is rotated towards the light. So instead of getting 12 hours of intense light, seven days a week, each node is now only getting 12 hours 3-4 days a week - half the PAR (photosynthetically active radiation).

However, if you leave your plants in one position, the nodes that face the light grow bigger and denser, while those on the "dark side" hardly grow at all. The plant simply transfers all its growth energy into the nodes/branches where the most light is.

Just like it does in nature


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## hyroot (Aug 8, 2013)

Prawn Connery said:


> Indeed the sun does arc from horizon to horizon . . . but it always shines on one side - the south-facing side if you are in the northern hemishere, or the north-facing side if you are in the southern hemisphere. (Different story if you are on the equator - which most of us aren't.)
> 
> For example, if you decide to put solar panels on your roof to generate electricity, which direction do you face them? Answer that, and you will confirm what I have been saying all along . . .
> 
> ...



I Just saw a house in the hills yesterday where almost the whole roof was covered in solar panels on all sides. I'm so jealous of that house


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## hyroot (Aug 8, 2013)

PuffinTuff420 said:


> Yes PAR means Photosynthetic Active response zone is the part of the light spectrum plant utilizes for growth but that is only a fraction of the lighting equation,same is true with lumens but light intensity is the magnitude of light energy per unit of area. It is greatest near the bulb and diminishes rapidly as it moves away from the source.for example plants two feet away from a lamp recieve one-fourth the amount of light recieved by plant one foot away from light source, an hid that imits 100,000 lumens produces a paltry 25,000 lumens two feet away. a 1000 watt hid that emits 100,000 watt that emits 100,000 initial lumens yields 11,111 lumens 3 feet away. The close marijuana is to a light source, the more PAR watts it recieves and the better it grows, as long as its not too close that heat from the lamp causes burned foliage.the relationship and the light emitted from a point source (bulb) and distance are defined by the inverse square law. This law affirms the intensity of light changes in inverse proportion to the square of distance I=l/d2 Intensity=light output/distance2. 1 lumen is equal to the amount of light emitted by one candle that falls on one square foot of surface one foot away. Lumens emmitted are only one part of the equation. lumens recieved by the plant are much more important. Lumens recieved are measured watts-per-square-foot also known as foot-candles (fc) one foot candle equals the amount of light that falls on one square foot of surface located one foot away from one candle.watts per square foot is easy to calculate but is erroneous way to calculate usable light for a garden. It measures how many watts are available from a light source in an area.mounting height is not considered in watts per square foot, nor does it consider PAR watts or efficiency of the bulb.Calculating foot candles or lux is a more accurate way to estimate the amount of light plants recieve, but it still lacks the precision of a light meter that calculates foot candle or lux. PAR and light spectrum play a huge role in growth rates. Marijuana needs light to grow. the light must have the proper spectrum and intensity to ensure rapid growth. light is comprised of several bands of color. Each color in the spectrum sends the plant a seperate signal each colr in the spectrum promotes a different type of growth. Plants need and use only certain portions of the light spectrum however, and the most important colors in the spectrum for maximum chlorophly production and photosynthesis response are in the blue and red range. The main portiion of light used by plants is between between 400-700 nanometers (nm) this region is called the Photosynthetically active radiation (PAR) zone. PAR watts is the measurement of the actual amount of specific photons a plant needs to grow. Photons are a measure of light energy. Light energy is radiated and and assimilated in photons. Photosynthesis is nesassary for plants to grow is activated by the assimilation of photons. blue photons are worth more PAR watts than red photons, but scientists have difficulty measuring the exact difference.Each color of light triggers different plant functions. Positive tropism, the plant ability to to orient leaves towards light, is controlled by spectrum. while light bulbs will never really be as good for plants as the sun it is sufficient enough.Light is also measured in Keulvin temperature which expresses the exact color a bulb emits (almost always on the box of bulb) bulbs with a kelvin temperature from 3000-6500 are best for growing marijuana. The PAR explains that that plants use specific portions of the light spectrum a complete range from blue to red. Lamps with a spectrum similar to a PAR rated bulb can use Kelvin temperature of a bulb to ascertain the aproximate PAR rating for a bulb. The Color Corrected Temperature (CCT) of a bulb is the peak kelvin temperature at wich the colors in a bulb remain stable. We classify bulbs by thier CCT rating wich tells us the overall color of the light emmited. Companies use a Color Rendering Index (CRI) the higher the CRI the better the bulb is for growing.



Cri . I have seen bulbs with lower cri perform better. Especially with led. WIth lumens. Adding more yellow increase lumens but lowers par..kelvin is based on black body radiator scale and is in no way an accurate measurement of spectrum or par.. Thats puts a hole in all that copy and pasting.

Yes blue region has more photons than red. Chlorophyll absorbs more red region than blue. Green helps plants absorb more photons in other areas. 75% of light chlorophyll absorbs is between 650nm -700nm

Inverse square law applies to intensity of a single point of light vs linear. Theres is about 5 different models of inverse square law.


http://m.pcp.oxfordjournals.org/content/50/4/684.full

http://m.jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/61/11/3107.full

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/isql.html#c1


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## Superstealthaus (Aug 8, 2013)

So I can put my plants like 4 inches away from my led grow light? Currently about 8-9 inches away plants only 6 inches tall


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## hyroot (Aug 8, 2013)

^^^^ no leds. Are best at 12 - 18 inches away during flower about 18- 24 inches during veg. Due to light bleaching which is cause by blue photons mostly.


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## Superstealthaus (Aug 8, 2013)

Shiiiiiiit ok thanks


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## hyroot (Aug 8, 2013)

Superstealthaus said:


> Shiiiiiiit ok thanks


Go to the led and other lighting section for anymore help if needed. Plus plenty of led grows going on there


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## Shivaskunk (Aug 9, 2013)

Hiddenface said:


> OMG! WHAT?! The only obvious benefit gained from rotating your plant is stretch and growth. The side with the light will develop faster. I have never experienced an increase in flower (bud) production and its not likely you will either. The only two realistic reasons ,in my experience, for rotating is: (1) you need the stretch for training later on or, (2)you intend to throw those bad girls outdoors later. Otherwise, the bud growth will be maximized daily on the side with the most intense light . Go ahead and try a side by side comparison. Rotate two plants during veg. then switch to flower . Continue swinging one round and round and the other press relatively flat and against the wall with the branches restrained and spread evenly to maximize the light coverage. Please report back with dry weight. Proper training and minor pruning is of course always advised. Results will vary in relation to system situation and possibly bias. "Common sense".........never mind , decided not to touch this one this time.



Yeah so light movers do nothing for yield either huh? You will absolutely see more uniform buds by rotating plants with natural shape that aren't under direct light. Outdoors where the sun moves all day long and changes angle as the seasons change you will get better yields than under indoor lighting. YES the sun is far more powerful but you will also notice that the buds on every side of your plant get uniformly large. Your tops will always be largest by virtue of the nature in which cannabis directs growth hormones. They also get full light constantly. Your lower buds..as you will obviously notice will get bigger if they are the ones facing your light while the bud sites that are shaded will develope slower and be smaller. In much the same way that if you take your tops and leave the lower buds to mature..if you rotate your naturally shaped plants in order to get more even amounts of light to the bud sites you will get more uniformly mature buds. This should indeed increase your yield.

There is a reason that lighting companies that sell products to indoor growers come up with light movers/spinning lights and why we all use reflective materials on our walls to capture as much light as possible/get light to the places that aren't directly under light. ...ys common sense tells you that a bud that gets more light will develope better.

I will agree with and defer to Prawn Connery on vertical growing as he does it very well and I don't have much experience. Definitely a vertical scrog is going to give you fantastic results. Or having enough lights to cover all sides of plants grown in the typical xmas tree or rounded shrub.


If your stupid ass had actually read my post I clearly stated that vertically scrog your plants will give you the best results. If you grow your plants without scrog I will absolutely say that rotating them will give you better results...or having enough lights to fill your area with light on all sides. Ive done it and my buds were anything but wispy.


But like this guy says..just try it for yourself and see what works best for you.


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## Shivaskunk (Aug 9, 2013)

I just train my plants for the nodes/branches that I want to see bud on and cut the rest away.




Prawn Connery said:


> Indeed the sun does arc from horizon to horizon . . . but it always shines on one side - the south-facing side if you are in the northern hemishere, or the north-facing side if you are in the southern hemisphere. (Different story if you are on the equator - which most of us aren't.)
> 
> For example, if you decide to put solar panels on your roof to generate electricity, which direction do you face them? Answer that, and you will confirm what I have been saying all along . . .
> 
> ...


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## Prawn Connery (Aug 9, 2013)

I also scrog, but I do grow the odd indica in my set-up, and they're a little harder to bend into shape without breaking branches etc. So when I have Christmas trees, I don't bother rotating and just let them bush out near the light. Works for me.


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## Sir.Ganga (Aug 10, 2013)

Rotating you plants does two things for any room, 1st. it allows for a more even plant all the way around and second and most important IMO is space. Clones may all come from the same mom but will all grow differently depending on where you took them, by rotating them equally you will eventually know how many actually fit in your grow and be able to max out the area every time without overgrow. Good Luck


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## Hiddenface (Aug 11, 2013)

It is unfortunate when some of the community resorts to name calling, but it is also an indicator of credibility. I have to agree with something said about swinginging those babies around round round lol, they will be more uniform. Your post was well scrutinized and we have determined ,with our 25+ years of combined vertical growing knowledge, that our points were well made. It would help to legitimize your argument in the future if when someone agrees with you on a topic (such as training&pruning) you don't make accusations and throw insults.We are trying to give sound advice on flower weight as opposed to uniformity. So our advice is geared toward dry weight. It does not help when trying to make a point to combine aspects of other topics (aka. reaching for straws). FYI people who develop products are marketers at heart they want you to buy the next thing. It doesn't matter if the product produces desired results; just that it generates revenue. Im done for now. BTW I have been growing every way under the artificial sun and have tried almost everything.I grow "HEATH style" as they call it now. With comparable results to the HEATH ROBINSON flooded tube journal.I have been doing flooded tubes for years.Solid colas is the most productive according to my experience.


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## Sir.Ganga (Aug 11, 2013)

Hiddenface said:


> It is unfortunate when some of the community resorts to name calling, but it is also an indicator of credibility. I have to agree with something said about swinginging those babies around round round lol, they will be more uniform. Your post was well scrutinized and we have determined ,with our 25+ years of combined vertical growing knowledge, that our points were well made. It would help to legitimize your argument in the future if when someone agrees with you on a topic (such as training&pruning) you don't make accusations and throw insults.We are trying to give sound advice on flower weight as opposed to uniformity. So our advice is geared toward dry weight. It does not help when trying to make a point to combine aspects of other topics (aka. reaching for straws). FYI people who develop products are marketers at heart they want you to buy the next thing. It doesn't matter if the product produces desired results; just that it generates revenue. Im done for now. BTW I have been growing every way under the artificial sun and have tried almost everything.I grow "HEATH style" as they call it now. With comparable results to the HEATH ROBINSON flooded tube journal.I have been doing flooded tubes for years.Solid colas is the most productive according to my experience.


 So...Are you for it or against it? Sounds like you can't rotate?


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## Hiddenface (Aug 12, 2013)

Rotating is definitely out of the question for the flooded tube. I do rotate my plants if they are donator/mothers in a Waterfarm or soil, but not everyday . I want all of the potential cuttings to be relatively uniform. I must apologize to Dboi87; I believe it to be rude and disrespectful for any members to focus on anything other than the primary topic of a thread. Common sense told me that. I only hope we have been able to help.


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## Prawn Connery (Aug 12, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Rotating you plants does two things for any room, 1st. it allows for a more even plant all the way around and second and most important IMO is space. Clones may all come from the same mom but will all grow differently depending on where you took them, by rotating them equally you will eventually know how many actually fit in your grow and be able to max out the area every time without overgrow. Good Luck


Yeah . . . nah . . . sorry. While rotating may make your plants more "even" or "uniform", you simply end up with more uniform underdeveloped buds on all sides. That's my experience. And I guess I've been growing vertically long enough to know how many plants of which type I can fit in my cabinet, so that's not something I take into account either.

Like all growing, it's what you learn along the way that determines how you continue to develop. A lot of us started out rotating our plants when we first went vertical but - for whatever reason - you won't find many growers who have been doing it long who still rotate their plants. (Actually, there is a reason - but I guess people need to learn for themselves.)

For example, here's my very first 600w DWC vertical grow from early 2004. I rotated my plants religiously during this grow and you can see how even the plants are on all sides. All I got for my trouble were some nice top colas and some pretty average bud the rest of the way around. After growing like this a couple of times I stopped rotating and - lo and behold! - my yields actually improved. Instead of growing lots of airy buds I now had fewer, denser buds that had received the full benefit of 12 hours of intense light each and every day.

And bugger me - it was a lot less work!


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## m4s73r (Dec 19, 2013)

Prawn Connery said:


> Yeah . . . nah . . . sorry. While rotating may make your plants more "even" or "uniform", you simply end up with more uniform underdeveloped buds on all sides. That's my experience. And I guess I've been growing vertically long enough to know how many plants of which type I can fit in my cabinet, so that's not something I take into account either.
> 
> Like all growing, it's what you learn along the way that determines how you continue to develop. A lot of us started out rotating our plants when we first went vertical but - for whatever reason - you won't find many growers who have been doing it long who still rotate their plants. (Actually, there is a reason - but I guess people need to learn for themselves.)
> 
> ...


This made up my mind on it. However just for academic intreset, Lets say you were in a 8x8x7 with 8 plants around it. and each was on a electric rotating display. It makes 1 rev\40s. Would a constant turn Change this dynamic at all? or would a timed half or quarter turn a few times a day change this. Say 6 hours, half turn, 6 hours rotation?


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## Prawn Connery (Dec 29, 2013)

One problem with auto-rotation is that you need to have enough space between each plant to rotate it (automatically) without interfering with the plant next to it - otherwise, as the plants rotate, their branches just get tangled up and broken. However, if you leave space between each plant for it to rotate without hitting the plant next to it, you waste light by having dead space between each plant.

It is much more efficient to "fan out" each plant and weave their branches in and out of the cage around the light so that they mesh together and use up all the available vertical space. This is called vertical scrogging, and it works the same as horizontal scrogging.

There really is no need to rotate plants to give them "even" light distribution. In nature, plants never have even light distribution because the sun is always arcing on the northern (southern hemisphere) or southern (northern hemi) horizon. Natural plants are side-lit all the time - except around midday on or near the equator.

Go outside and have a look at any plant in your garden and see how it is lit. Now, have you rotated any of them lately? I didn't think so


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## m4s73r (Dec 29, 2013)

Prawn Connery said:


> One problem with auto-rotation is that you need to have enough space between each plant to rotate it (automatically) without interfering with the plant next to it - otherwise, as the plants rotate, their branches just get tangled up and broken. However, if you leave space between each plant for it to rotate without hitting the plant next to it, you waste light by having dead space between each plant.
> 
> It is much more efficient to "fan out" each plant and weave their branches in and out of the cage around the light so that they mesh together and use up all the available vertical space. This is called vertical scrogging, and it works the same as horizontal scrogging.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. in my mind rather then cagging the bulb, cage each plant. like a cylinder. So each plant would be its own rotating scrog. Making it a full cylinder thats rotating allowing you to push the tops back under the screen. It would also allow you access to the bulb side of the scrog rather then the back side. 

Now dont get me wrong. I have no doubts in my mind that this would reduce over all yield. I grow for me. and grow plenty enough for myself to do whatever. So I think about it like this. Eventually this thing we do will be fully federally legal here in the states. MTV's Pimp My Grow Room will be a number one show. JUST SAYING. Hosted by Cheech. There will be spinning tvs with never ending running loops of Cypress Hill and Bone Thugs Pot songs from the last 20 years... I could go on. Its spinnin bitches, its spinnin... lol


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## Prawn Connery (Dec 29, 2013)

That would work.


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## JointOperation (Mar 21, 2014)

after reading.. and trying.. it seems that in horizontal grows.. it just slows down things while your plant uses more energy moving your fan leaves toward the lights then anything else.. honestly.. it felt like the usual 75 days i go in flower... went to 85-90.. and i was fucking pissed.. because i pull on when my trichomes are ready and were i like em to be.. but i did see a lil increase in yields.. but i think your better off adding more light wether its side lighting.. or maybe even something above.. like i said in the last post i made.. my next run will be a 1000w on a light mover or flip flop horizontal. and the rest will be vert.. its tough to keep cool with barebulbs,.. and took the glass out of my hoods to increase yield in winter.. but i always need to put my glass back in during the summer or else i need to run too much AC.. so it saves cash in summer.


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## tystikk (Mar 22, 2014)

I've built my silo system on the premise of aiming the plant inward at the light and treating 'outside' exactly like 'down'; don't light it, and trim off anything growing there.

It's very productive this way, and easy to manage. Consistent results are easier as well.


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## JointOperation (Mar 25, 2014)

listen to tystikk lol hes been doing vert longer then i have.. but.. from what ive seen and tried... vert is nice to do vertical scrogs. and what they call the wall of buds. i mean honestly. some of these dudes are pulling up to 3-4 pounds a light.. with the light amount of veg.. and lights.. and genetics makes a difference too.. but still people are running 4-5 plants around a 1000w vert. veg till its a full room of nugs depending on stretch.. and cleaning it up .. and shit.. i want to make a vertical box. that i can put hinges on.. and open the circle for Easier maintenence thats my only issue with vert.. i have to turn the bulb off.. turn a few cfls on.. and Crawl into my room LOL. and then do my work lol .


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## kinddiesel (Mar 25, 2014)

best answer depends and depends and depending . so yes and no . I think it will make a difference if your lights are very strong on one side but not the other so if you turn the plant every day at least you get equal buds on each side. total waste of time using a 250 hps or stronger . I think its a total waste of time all together . like those light movers .


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## MrMeanGreen (Mar 29, 2014)

m4s73r said:


> I agree 100%. in my mind rather then cagging the bulb, cage each plant. like a cylinder. So each plant would be its own rotating scrog. Making it a full cylinder thats rotating allowing you to push the tops back under the screen. It would also allow you access to the bulb side of the scrog rather then the back side.
> 
> Now dont get me wrong. I have no doubts in my mind that this would reduce over all yield. I grow for me. and grow plenty enough for myself to do whatever. So I think about it like this. Eventually this thing we do will be fully federally legal here in the states. MTV's Pimp My Grow Room will be a number one show. JUST SAYING. Hosted by Cheech. There will be spinning tvs with never ending running loops of Cypress Hill and Bone Thugs Pot songs from the last 20 years... I could go on. Its spinnin bitches, its spinnin... lol


I have just employed this model myself with a view to a perpetual system, 2 plants in and out every 2 weeks. I have 3 stacked 600's in cool tubes but only ever have 2 running at any given time(Lets not get into the cool tube thing here) with the added bonus of an extra bare 600 with a hood on the outside for added boost if you like. I am plan using the extra bare bulb for the last 2 weeks of flower but will experiment over time with the best use for bud developement ie first 2 weeks or 3rd and forth week blah blah. Each pot has its own mesh and makes training very easy. You force branches out of the scrogg or easily tie em back into the screen if they are getting to wide. I have high hopes for this method as organising ya scrogg and maximising canopy space is a doddle. No need to strip any leaves at all if you have spread your canopy well they have all the room they need. What I have done is completely stripped the inside of the plant other than the top third and any light that does penetrate through the front canopy is picked up by the back of the plant. I do rotate a quater turn every day, its quick and its easy as each plant is caged in its own right.

I will try and get some pics together but there is not alot to see right now, my first 2 plant are only just at the end of week one flower, vegged for 4 weeks . It pains me to see the unused grow space but needs must for a perpetual vertivcal grow. So for me, I rotate to make best use of the extra bare bulb on the outside of the grow. TIme and numbers will tell. Oh and just for the books, my last grow with 3 full time stacked cool tubes (no extra light) was 47 z's of 7 plants and I only vegged em for 3 weeks.


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## ttystikk (Apr 10, 2014)

I just reread the comments about rotating plants, and I can say that trying to move the plants once they've entered their flowering phase is a zero sum game. Rather try to light the plant from the back half the time, that seems to work better.

I don't want to mess with back lighting or rotating plants at all, and that's saying something coming from the guy who bolted a mountain bike to the ceiling and used it as a light rotator! The bottom line is that I'm after keeping things simple, and lighting from inside only is just better. WHY? 

It's my contention that placing the bulb in the middle and the plants against the outside of the round trellis manages the all-important bulb to bud distance better than other approaches, and this is the ultimate source of its efficiency.


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## HydroGp (Apr 10, 2014)

ttystikk said:


> that's saying something coming from the guy who bolted a mountain bike to the ceiling and used it as a light rotator! .


Hahahahaha  Funny shiz


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## ttystikk (Apr 10, 2014)

HydroGp said:


> Hahahahaha  Funny shiz


 

I bet you thought I was kidding, huh?


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## HydroGp (Apr 10, 2014)

Awesome! Hahaha


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## Sativied (Apr 10, 2014)

ttystikk said:


> I bet you thought I was kidding, huh?


Not me, sounded too crazy to make up. That image deserves a dedicated thread 

I have just one question: why?


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## ttystikk (Apr 10, 2014)

Sativied said:


> Not me, sounded too crazy to make up. That image deserves a dedicated thread
> 
> I have just one question: why?


Well, I used it to reduce the distance between the bulb and the buds, while moving the light fast enough to keep anything from burning. It worked really well with an adjust-a-wing style reflector, and not worth a shit with that sealed and vented box hood.

There is merit to parts of this concept and I may return to it at some point. The silo system I'm using now is far more efficient than this ever was, making it an interesting but ultimately futile blind alley.


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## MrMeanGreen (Apr 11, 2014)

ttystikk said:


> I just reread the comments about rotating plants, and I can say that trying to move the plants once they've entered their flowering phase is a zero sum game. Rather try to light the plant from the back half the time, that seems to work better.
> 
> I don't want to mess with back lighting or rotating plants at all, and that's saying something coming from the guy who bolted a mountain bike to the ceiling and used it as a light rotator! The bottom line is that I'm after keeping things simple, and lighting from inside only is just better. WHY?
> 
> It's my contention that placing the bulb in the middle and the plants against the outside of the round trellis manages the all-important bulb to bud distance better than other approaches, and this is the ultimate source of its efficiency.


I agree to an extent but being able to rotate depends on the grow method you apply. My last grow was a single (silo) cage approx 12" around the bulbs and my plants growing into the cage. No chance at all of rotating, This time round I have caged each plant individually and the plant grows out of it. I find this very easy to manage and rotating takes all of 2 seconds per plant.I try yo keep the middle of the cage bald for greater air circulation and tie back any unruley growth outside the cage, This is giving me a perfect cylinders of growth, uniform growth and very easy to maintain. I can also move branches about during the early stages to maximise light use and stop branches encroaching on each others light making training very easy. It also makes for easy management of a perpetual system.


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## ttystikk (Apr 12, 2014)

MrMeanGreen said:


> I agree to an extent but being able to rotate depends on the grow method you apply. My last grow was a single (silo) cage approx 12" around the bulbs and my plants growing into the cage. No chance at all of rotating, This time round I have caged each plant individually and the plant grows out of it. I find this very easy to manage and rotating takes all of 2 seconds per plant.I try yo keep the middle of the cage bald for greater air circulation and tie back any unruley growth outside the cage, This is giving me a perfect cylinders of growth, uniform growth and very easy to maintain. I can also move branches about during the early stages to maximise light use and stop branches encroaching on each others light making training very easy. It also makes for easy management of a perpetual system.


Your approach does indeed make it easier to rotate the plants. I'm still wondering if we're getting anything from the exercise, or just fooling ourselves because it just looks like it.

I wasn't happy with my own results of rotating, so I built a system that takes full advantage of being trellised and shaped instead of using rotation.


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## MrMeanGreen (Apr 15, 2014)

ttystikk said:


> Your approach does indeed make it easier to rotate the plants. I'm still wondering if we're getting anything from the exercise, or just fooling ourselves because it just looks like it.
> 
> I wasn't happy with my own results of rotating, so I built a system that takes full advantage of being trellised and shaped instead of using rotation.


There are a few reasons for trying this set up, most of them to answer questions that come up during the many stoned hours that me and my babies share when the kids go to bed.

1. Does a branch/ plant have a light saturation point? I now have a 5ft stack of 3 cool tubes (plus 600w extra external) and my plants are 6" away from the bulbs. Does the plant / branch "max out" so to speak at the closest point to the light source? Does it get to the point where such a high level of light is having a detremental effect or the light is simply going to waste. Put a cup under a dripping tap and it will eventually fill up, put a cup under a fully open tap and it will fill quickly but excess water flows over the top and to waste. Does the same principal apply?

2. Is there a stage in a buds life where good light lays the blocks for future bud production. ie.... good constant light during weeks 3-4 lays building blocks for weeks 5-9. During my last grow I exposed a lower branch to good light that was heavily shaded during first 6 weeks and developement over the next 3 weeks was poor, actually it was shit and a waste of time. So I came to the conclusion that if a part of the palnt is light deprived early on then the damage cannot be reversed towards the end. From this the question I can draw other questions. "Does good light earlier on in flowering developemant that will allow for reduction in light later in the grow without too much loss of quality and quantity". I have almost 2.5k watts in my flower room which is 600w over my safe point where I can control the heat and energy use without worry, so I only ever have 3x600w burning at any one time (1 light is always off). Is swapping light sources to expose buds to light worth the effort?

I have got to say though, so far it seems to be having a positive effect.


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## ttystikk (Apr 15, 2014)

Those are excellent questions, and the best answers myself and my friends have come up with are as follows; the time to give your plants the very best head start is VEG. ONLY strong, healthy, vigorously growing plants are going to provide top quality results. Think chess; strong opening moves set the stage for dominating the board later.

You are right about late light not being enough to play catch up. The branch needs lighting throughout the blooming cycle, EVEN IF IT'S INTERMITTENT. Heath Robinson himself ran a 'checkerboard' experiment, where he alternated between two 600W bulbs, each on opposite sides of the plant. Each side got six hours of light per day, then the whole thing would be dark for 12 hours. Heath showed impressive pics of healthy bud grown this way and claimed serious grams per watt improvements.

I've done something similar with an old overhead design light mover... Which leads to your next question, about there being an upper limit to light pressure; yes, BUT. LOL

There is no magic number, because the ability of the leaf to transpire water and avoid bleaching of course changes with the local conditions. In addition, duration matters as well; from personal experience (that is, I've seen the phenomenon but I can't quantify it) I know that a plant can handle light pressures temporarily that are well beyond its ability to tolerate continuously. This leads to some interesting possibilities, ones I have yet to investigate in more depth.

There is a kick ass PhD thesis in there if someone wants to do the work of quantifying this phenomenon, thus making it more available to those who would try to take advantage of this property of plant resilience.


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## JointOperation (Apr 16, 2014)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Rotating you plants does two things for any room, 1st. it allows for a more even plant all the way around and second and most important IMO is space. Clones may all come from the same mom but will all grow differently depending on where you took them, by rotating them equally you will eventually know how many actually fit in your grow and be able to max out the area every time without overgrow. Good Luck


MISINFO... and .. no.. rotating your plants doesnt help anything .. it makes your flowering period extend. because your leaves / solar panels for light.. need to keep turning to the light every rotation.. its a waste of time.. if u have the right amount of light for your grow.. just staking them up.. and training your plants will allow for a much better harvest.. then rotating.. tried this wen i first started growing. kuz of people like Sir. GANGA.. said oo ya it helps.. then. i tried it.. and got a worse yield.. and then i tried it again a few years later to see if it was grower error.. and the same thing.. it added like 1-3 weeks to flowering time.. nothing ripened up like it normally did.. and instead of being able to harvest and start a new batch.. i had 3 weeks of veg room overgrowing the size i wanted to flower them out as..

just all around bad idea.. y do u think so many people use SCREENS.. u cant move shit.. and they get the best yield out of everyone.

if u want big yields.. VEG.. to a certain size.. have your flower room screened up.. and then veg them until they fill the screen. and flip.. best yield for bigger plants..

if u want big yields .. and as many crops a year as possible..
go with a SOG. as many plants as u can fit in 1-2 gallon pots.. flowered out after 1-2 weeks of veg..

thhink about it like this.. your plant will spend more energy turning the leaves toward the light.. when they are supposed to be spending there time soaking up all the light.. so that wen the lights go out.. the buds can SWELL.

good luck.,. but after years of trying different techniques.. SCROG. SOG.. Vert trees. or horizontal trees.. all produce the best buds .. no rotating.. u can top.. LST.. or put in screens for the best yields. or use plant count.. plus light for a sog.. for great yields. but lots of work .


heaths method of doing 1 side .. then the other.. proved to work great for some strains of mine.. but not others.. i think genetics play a role.. just like flowering under MH or HPS..


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## Red1966 (Apr 20, 2014)

hyroot said:


> You don't have too if you scrog or have multiple bulbs on either side. You don't have to if you don't want. Rotating should be done with all lighting methods. To get the best over all coverage and yield and quality.
> 
> Fyi lumens doesn't mean anything to plants. Lumens by definition is visible light to the human eye. Plants / chlorophyll absorb wave lengths that we don't normally see. Its par you want to measure. Umole/s / watts2


Few light makers publish par ratings. So we use what we have, imperfect as it may be.


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## MrMeanGreen (Apr 25, 2014)

It goes without saying that rotation reduces the overall light quality to a given part of the plant, but it's all swings and roundabouts. Riddle me this....

A 5ft diameter silo (5ft height) gives approx 16ft circumferance, total surface area is 80ft square. Lets say you allow your plants to grow into the silo about 6-8 inches, your silo radius is now approx 11ft circumferance and 5ft high giving a 55ft sq surface area.

Now then.... I have a 6 plant setup all individually caged with each cage having a 18inch diameter or 5ft circumferance, total surface are 25ft sq. Now multiply that by 6 plants = 150ft sq.

Rotation is giving me triple the surface area using the same light source. In simple terms, I am tripling my surface area but halfing the amount of light to any given branch. Only time will tell if it was worth the effort, just passed mid point so about 4 weeks to go.


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## Darrin661 (Apr 25, 2014)

Makes them lean side to side working there way up,Its mostly a personal prefrence.


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## bigworm6969 (Apr 25, 2014)

i always thoght it was helping the side of the plant that dont get no light to get some but hell if it dont help im going to stop cause it does make sense that the plant use energy to refocuse its leaves where the light is when u rotate


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## charface (Apr 25, 2014)

rotating does allow you to visually inspect the whole plant.
I hate not knowing what lies on the dark side of the moon.
Keeps me up nights


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## fishmark (Apr 26, 2014)

I run a perpetual harvest of 12-16 in two tiers around 1K HPS and 2 400 MH. I ran for about two years rotating roundish shaped plants. If done as part of watering not much more added work. Once I accepted the concept of pruning for multiple colas 3 or more sticks in a pot became a pain in the butt. Almost injured an eye bending down not seeing one, So I decided to try an inverted "A" frame two verticals and one or two cross braces. This has worked well and I will flower most of my plants this way now with no rotation. The harvest off the first few have been impressive.


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## ttystikk (Apr 26, 2014)

I vertical ScrOG, no rotating.


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## JointOperation (Apr 27, 2014)

i will say.. if u need to do this go for it.. but i found a long time ago.. that it made my flowering times.. longer.. and for me. 2-3 weeks of flower.. is not worth the extra yield.. when i can use a screen or SOG and get the same yield in less time.


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## MrMeanGreen (Apr 28, 2014)

I am a stubborn fuka and unless I see it with my own eyes or documentation showing proof, I will try it myself. I am not saying those who have tried it are full of shit but there are many paramenters that can affect the outcome. 

All you fella's that tried rotation but it didn't work for you, were they caged or simply free standing plants with V lighting and rotated? It is very significant if free standing. If they are not individually caged then as the plant developes and widens (from the bottom up) you are pushing the majority of the plant away from the light source. When caged, ALL plant matter is no more than 6 inches away from the light sourse for the duration of the grow, apart from when the plant has been rotated away from the light. A free standing plant if grown to 5ft will have a base diameter of 4-5 ft. The bottom ring of growth (widest point) is spoilt for light but each subsequent ring of growth is further and further from the light source. The main cola will be 2.5 - 3.5ft away from the light. All this will masively effect the outcome. 

Another thing i am really liking is no pruning required at all. If planned and spread well through the cage, the whole plant gets high quality and even light. Other than the occaisional yellowing leaf, I have never pruned a thing which can only be good.


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## MrMeanGreen (Apr 28, 2014)

bigworm6969 said:


> i always thoght it was helping the side of the plant that dont get no light to get some but hell if it dont help im going to stop cause it does make sense that the plant use energy to refocuse its leaves where the light is when u rotate


Why do you think plants have the ability to move and follow the light..... Because it's what they do all day long, they chase the sun as it crosses the sky. It is what they are designed to do so in my eyes it's not really much of an issue.


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## NanoBrainz (Apr 30, 2014)

I usually rotate my plants but i also have very long flowering times, usually around 66-70 days even for Indicas (maybe 80 days or so if i count from 12/12). Could that be he issue then? I won't be doing it for this grow..


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## guitarzan (Sep 12, 2019)

I never rotate and I've been growing vertically for almost 10 years. It's not worth the trouble.[/QUOTE]


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## guitarzan (Sep 12, 2019)

I've been growing from 5 to 20 plants outside every year since the 1990's, even before that, and I always move them here and there to get direct sunlight...I even turn the containers around 180 degrees to get direct sun on the other side, but I know that it's a fukin' plant, not a stripper sunbathing her monkey and titties. I'm sure if one side of a plant gets more direct dead-on sunshine than it's sister branches on the other side who only get ambient light...like, the bud from the sunnier side is not going to be way more potent...but I still keep doing it...OH, it's another hour of sunshine left, I better turn the pain-in-the-ass bitches. LoL I'm old eh...stuck in my ways. LoL Happy Harvest Budz.


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## guitarzan (Sep 12, 2019)

NanoBrainz said:


> I usually rotate my plants but i also have very long flowering times, usually around 66-70 days even for Indicas (maybe 80 days or so if i count from 12/12). Could that be he issue then? I won't be doing it for this grow..


 Do you age your buds from when you 12/12? Some say to start aging from when you first see signs of flowers...stigmas...I disagree with that, because you may be off by near a week...plus, with clones, you always see signs of sexing, like the odd hair, even when in veg state...so there's too much room for error in harvest picking time...THC may degrade into CBD or some other stuff aftewr the prime time to harvest. I always cut it short rather than let them go longer than i should, although I've done that too...end up with sleepy sticky way too resiny bud...I prefer the head high, so i harvest with some near clear trichome heads...but not too early.


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## guitarzan (Sep 12, 2019)

MrMeanGreen said:


> Why do you think plants have the ability to move and follow the light..... Because it's what they do all day long, they chase the sun as it crosses the sky. It is what they are designed to do so in my eyes it's not really much of an issue.


Yep, you darn near convinced me...wait, gotta go and turn my plants. lol


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## Kassiopeija (Oct 3, 2019)

If you rotate a big plant in not good conditions, e.g. too much heat, it can shock the plant because of the time the plant needs to adjust to the new circumstances.
I find that plants benefit from homogenous conditions greatly.


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## andy s (Oct 3, 2019)

Dboi87 said:


> I've been told when growing vertically its best to rotate the plants in order to get even light distribution but would it really make a difference? Leaves never block light they absorb it and use it for food.


If that's the case you wouldn't have to trim to get nodes to open up


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## andy s (Oct 3, 2019)

If you have one light centered over them that doesn't move, it's a good idea to rotate. If it's one plant, dont worry about it


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## Agronut (Jan 8, 2020)

Hiddenface said:


> OMG! WHAT?! The only obvious benefit gained from rotating your plant is stretch and growth. The side with the light will develop faster. I have never experienced an increase in flower (bud) production and its not likely you will either. The only two realistic reasons ,in my experience, for rotating is: (1) you need the stretch for training later on or, (2)you intend to throw those bad girls outdoors later. Otherwise, the bud growth will be maximized daily on the side with the most intense light . Go ahead and try a side by side comparison. Rotate two plants during veg. then switch to flower . Continue swinging one round and round and the other press relatively flat and against the wall with the branches restrained and spread evenly to maximize the light coverage. Please report back with dry weight. Proper training and minor pruning is of course always advised. Results will vary in relation to system situation and possibly bias. "Common sense".........never mind , decided not to touch this one this time.


i’m not entirely vertical, but i hang a 400w HPS in the center of 5-6 plants during flower only; the HPS is supplemental/vertical to boost the 630w CMH fixture that is horizontal above all the way through veg and harvest. So, i’m flowering under 630w CMH horizontal reflector (dual spectrum) + 400w HPS vertical to side light in a 5x5 tent. I rotated plants religiously during my first and second grows, but NEVER after that....and growing the same strains, I could not tell a difference between rotated/non rotated plants. In my experience if your total lumens are intense enough, and you have an few hundred watts HPS bathing your girls from pot to top, your plants will fatten on all sides. Rotating seems to be a massive waste of time, but someone who has done side-by-side may be able to prove or disprove.


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