# Mycorrhizal fungi applications for cannabis - the caveats



## Uncle Ben (Apr 10, 2009)

First off, for those of you who have followed my rants over the years, you know how much I disdain "snake oils" aka "rocket fuels" and the shysters that push them. I do keep an open mind and will take the plunge from time to time but so far I feel I've wasted my money. IOW, if it sounds too good to be true, then it usually is. I consider most of the organic market push to be a big racket based on idealogical fervor and greed. I attended a professional workshop on the use of non-conventional soil additives where such products were applied in field studies with all kinds of crops throughout the U.S. and all products tested (about 10) were found to have no beneficial affect on crop production. Having said that, this raises the question, when can some of these "snake oils" be of benefit to the cannabis gardener? Which brings me to my latest experiment.......

I recently applied 30 gallons of a MycoApply soluble product to alot of plant material, not cannabis, but all the same as I applied it to very similiar plants regarding their botanical makeup, growth habits, etc. I will be able to judge the results by the end of this growing season as a control group was set aside with no treatment.

There are quite a few such products containing either or both endo (hyphae within the roots) and ecto (hyphae on the roots) type species, I chose what is considered the most complete and best product in the industry for broad spectrum use - trees, conifers, grapevines, veggies, roses, potted plants, etc. (Not all fungi species will work under all circumstances.... soil conditions, temps, etc.) This brand is also the cheapest and is regulated. A long conversation with a company tech confirmed that indeed their product is bonafide. Of course an electron microscope would come in handy for a quick and easy check.  For about $45 (which included shipping) I am able to make up to 200 gallons of an active soil drench. I used a product called Soluble MaXX which contains: 

9 Species Endo (31,200 prop/lb) 
11 Species Ecto (1.5 billion prop/lb) 
2 Species Trichoderma, a Biostimulant Package and Beneficial Bacteria

The use of this product is best when you're using soil-less potting mixes as mixes rich in compost will likely not see any real world benefit. Now here is the rub - this fungi comes dormant with a carrier and takes time to become active, work up an active colony in the root zone. Is it active by the time you harvest, or a week after application while your plants are in the juvenile stage? 

If you wish to experiment with such products it is imperative that you also have a control group and take careful notes, which no one seems to want to do, instead seeing what they want or expect to see. Upon harvest it would be wise to inspect the root system to see if a fungi colony did indeed develop. The grower is still subject to good plant practices so your mileage will vary.

I take the approach that gardening is all about tweaks, the use of bonafide products might be worth experimenting with, then again you might be throwing good money after bad. Hoo nose?

Good luck,
UB


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## diemdepyro (Apr 10, 2009)

I couldn,t grow without them. I have big girls in little pots and without michs it would not work.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 11, 2009)

diemdepyro said:


> I couldn,t grow without them. I have big girls in little pots and without michs it would not work.


What brand do you use (got a link)?

Ever done a control group along side the treated pots?

Tio


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## GreenThumbSucker (Apr 11, 2009)

Urban myths make people rich.


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## orzz (Apr 11, 2009)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> Urban myths make people rich.


 So does the right nutes.


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## TheFrozenChosen (Apr 14, 2009)

I am growing 8 plants in in a 35gal DWC. growing a Vscrog on 3sides (each 3'x3'' with 2 plants per), and a floor screen of 2.5'x3'. Screen is 6-8" off the deck and my stalks are larger than a .50 piece. The vertical stalks are 3/4 to 1" in diameter. and some are 30" tall in the vscreen. Using Ionic nutes, sweet, bud blood( 1st 2wks bud), and now big bud. Voodoo juice was used in week3 of veg and right at bloom. I beilieve it made an amazing difference in overall growth. 

Snake oils may make people rich, but excellent weed makes em happy!
'


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## orzz (Apr 14, 2009)

TheFrozenChosen said:


> I am growing 8 plants in in a 35gal DWC. growing a Vscrog on 3sides (each 3'x3'' with 2 plants per), and a floor screen of 2.5'x3'. Screen is 6-8" off the deck and my stalks are larger than a .50 piece. The vertical stalks are 3/4 to 1" in diameter. and some are 30" tall in the vscreen. Using Ionic nutes, sweet, bud blood( 1st 2wks bud), and now big bud. Voodoo juice was used in week3 of veg and right at bloom. I beilieve it made an amazing difference in overall growth.
> 
> Snake oils may make people rich, but excellent weed makes em happy!
> '


That sounds like a great set up Froz'n. Got any pics?


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## TheFrozenChosen (Apr 14, 2009)

Thx....it's my GENESIS box....will work on the pix


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## TheFrozenChosen (Apr 15, 2009)

TheFrozenChosen said:


> Thx....it's my GENESIS box....will work on the pix


something like this


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## orzz (Apr 15, 2009)

TheFrozenChosen said:


> something like this


Heya Frozen, they're looking beautiful. And that stem is solid like an oak.


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## TheFrozenChosen (Apr 16, 2009)

thx....Back to the thread at hand....I saw my roots today...DAMN!!!cant get a camera in there though.....Growing out of 5" net pots full of hydroton......big mass hanging below....4" air stone under each.......those are 2" squares on my screen.....

I wont grow again without voodoo juice....I should also qauntify that with this is my 3rd attempt


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## TheFrozenChosen (Apr 16, 2009)

orzz said:


> Heya Frozen, they're looking beautiful. And that stem is solid like an oak.


Thank you! I won't do another grow without the "Voodoo Juice"


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## diemdepyro (Apr 17, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> What brand do you use (got a link)?
> 
> Ever done a control group along side the treated pots?
> 
> Tio


Sorry it took so long to respond, I just use generic mics that are available at most plant stores. And yes I have done some side by sides. The untreated plants(big girls little pots) do not do shit. Sparse thin waste of time plants.
I could use bigger pots but that would be wasting my resources.


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## born2killspam (Apr 17, 2009)

I'm currently selling guard rocks to protect crops if anybodies interested.. They work great.. All the benefit of a pit-bull, but you don't need to feed or clean up after them..
Just $19.95.. At that price I'm losing money.. pm me..


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## diemdepyro (Apr 17, 2009)

I am building a monorail! Who wants in at the bottom?


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## orzz (Apr 17, 2009)

diemdepyro said:


> I am building a monorail! Who wants in at the bottom?


I won't be a bottom ... I want to be on top.


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## diemdepyro (Apr 17, 2009)

Monorail .....Monorail who has seen the simpsons monorail show?


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## orzz (Apr 17, 2009)

diemdepyro said:


> Monorail .....Monorail who has seen the simpsons monorail show?


Yep seen it and the one at Disneyland. Sorry about the last post ... was not as funny when I read it a second time. Oh well can't make a funny but I can try. lol


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## diemdepyro (Apr 17, 2009)

Peace orzz


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## spagettiheady420 (Apr 17, 2009)

wow, great stuff. any source on where i can purchase 1 gal of voodoo juice? I went to a local hydro shop and they wanted like $300 per gal!


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## TheFrozenChosen (Apr 18, 2009)

spagettiheady420 said:


> wow, great stuff. any source on where i can purchase 1 gal of voodoo juice? I went to a local hydro shop and they wanted like $300 per gal!


300 is a good price....I was paying 100 per litre.....and I use a litre per application.....


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## TheFrozenChosen (Apr 19, 2009)

i think it cost me 100 a liter....worth it tho!


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## diemdepyro (Apr 19, 2009)

If we are still talking michs here, I have grown my own.


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## iloveit (Apr 19, 2009)

Let me start off by saying Im a super noob & reading through this thread seems like "michs" is something I should know about. Can somebody give a brief explanation on what "michs" is & the benefits please, also It would be really helpful if you can name some brand that have it readily available in Hydro stores.


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## diemdepyro (Apr 19, 2009)

Michs are fungi that roots use to expand their uptake. It is a symbiotic relationship.


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## iloveit (Apr 19, 2009)

diemdepyro said:


> Michs are fungi that roots use to expand their uptake. It is a symbiotic relationship.


Does it help promote bud growth, weight etc?


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## born2killspam (Apr 19, 2009)

All root improvement increases bud growth and yield..


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## iloveit (Apr 19, 2009)

Thanks diemdepyro, borntokillspam.


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## diemdepyro (Apr 19, 2009)

One note here, it is better in organics. Chemical ferts kill them.


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## born2killspam (Apr 19, 2009)

Not exactly.. Bad proportions of chemical ferts may kill them, but then again, so will bad proportions of organics because they do infact break down to the same compounds as chemical ferts are made of..
Organics also provide a plethora of compounds beyond the typical NPK salts though, and microbial life tends to require these.. They don't need to come from organic ferts though.. Well they do I guess, but healthy soil is more organic than some ppl realize.. You don't necessarily need to add more organic products though, and proper addition of salts won't hurt them if they are types that are indeed symbiotic with cannabis..


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## spagettiheady420 (Apr 19, 2009)

what is another good brand besides Voodoo Juice?


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 20, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Not exactly.. Bad proportions of chemical ferts may kill them, but then again, so will bad proportions of organics because they do infact break down to the same compounds as chemical ferts are made of..
> Organics also provide a plethora of compounds beyond the typical NPK salts though, and microbial life tends to require these.. They don't need to come from organic ferts though.. Well they do I guess, but healthy soil is more organic than some ppl realize.. You don't necessarily need to add more organic products though, and proper addition of salts won't hurt them if they are types that are indeed symbiotic with cannabis..


Great post. High P foods can kill this group of fungi. If I was doing soil-less, ecto and endo forms of myco might be beneficial. Only by running a control group can you get an answer.

If you are stupid enough to buy Voodoo Juice (or anything AN sells for that matter), then you deserve to get burned. 1 l. for $69?????? I bought a product for $39 that makes up to 200 gallons of a soil drench, and that's a one time hit too. For starts, "Voodoo Juice is not a mycorrhizal mixture." http://www.hydroempire.com/store/product_info.php/products_id/504?osCsid=433d781fceebacb62ca878f16497b9a1

Buyer beware!

UB


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## born2killspam (Apr 20, 2009)

I'm always telling ppl to look towards the agricultural sector for soil products, and the contracting sector for lights/hardware.. The hydro-store is a good place to get phosphoric acid for pH down, and rockwool/H2O2 if you need those, but for anything else its analogous to buying candles for $25 from some store that also sells crystals, and fertility statues..
Here are a couple products I found that are intended for large-scale application..
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&url=http://www.naturalindustries.com/2005-sp.factsheet-MSDS.pdf&ei=esrsSezFG5jItAOH4dz0AQ&usg=AFQjCNHGwlokMryi4b11fO7KmWxXT9olrg&sig2=gVv9TAqag-IbZ8F130zdJg
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http://www.ndkltd.co.uk/NDK%20Myco-Grow%20Product%20Leaflet.pdf&ei=x8vsSdGUH5votAOcxpTrAQ&usg=AFQjCNFA-Ax8rblyvJKrqP2RLACXqZpGpg&sig2=c9IqRoEkSfR5PJ5qfNYusw


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 20, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> I'm always telling ppl to look towards the agricultural sector for soil products, and the contracting sector for lights/hardware.. The hydro-store is a good place to get phosphoric acid for pH down, and rockwool/H2O2 if you need those, but for anything else its analogous to buying candles for $25 from some store that also sells crystals, and fertility statues..


I got a vasectomy early on, so the fertility statues were never a "big thang" for this here bendejo.

Here are a couple products I found that are intended for large-scale application..
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&url=http://www.naturalindustries.com/2005-sp.factsheet-MSDS.pdf&ei=esrsSezFG5jItAOH4dz0AQ&usg=AFQjCNHGwlokMryi4b11fO7KmWxXT9olrg&sig2=gVv9TAqag-IbZ8F130zdJg

Deals with a fungicide.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http://www.ndkltd.co.uk/NDK%20Myco-Grow%20Product%20Leaflet.pdf&ei=x8vsSdGUH5votAOcxpTrAQ&usg=AFQjCNFA-Ax8rblyvJKrqP2RLACXqZpGpg&sig2=c9IqRoEkSfR5PJ5qfNYusw

Very limited amount of species (3) and only one kind, endo. There are many species that thrive under different environtments regarding temp, moisture, soil structure, pH, etc. This brand covers all conditions by providing a broad array of species. 
http://www.mycorrhizae.com/index.php?cid=555

"VAM" is just another "confusing" label for the basic fungus spores.


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## StealthyGardener (Apr 22, 2009)

Thank you Uncle Ben. I can't add any meaningful feedback right now, but I wanted to acknowledge your scientific approach. Most of the comments on the web come from folks who have no clue of how to go about objectively evaluating nutrients, supplements, and technique. I will be interested to hear your findings. I have been inoculating with fungi and bacteria, but have not done a controlled study. I grow in a hybrid media composed of coir, perlite, and a small amount of compost/peat moss. I end up with a very healthy dense root matrix, but really don't know if the fungi and bacteria make a difference in development and nutient uptake. Please keep up the good, objective, and valuable research. Thank you for sharing.

SG


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 22, 2009)

StealthyGardener said:


> Thank you Uncle Ben. I can't add any meaningful feedback right now, but I wanted to acknowledge your scientific approach. Most of the comments on the web come from folks who have no clue of how to go about objectively evaluating nutrients, supplements, and technique. I will be interested to hear your findings. I have been inoculating with fungi and bacteria, but have not done a controlled study. I grow in a hybrid media composed of coir, perlite, and a small amount of compost/peat moss. I end up with a very healthy dense root matrix, but really don't know if the fungi and bacteria make a difference in development and nutient uptake. Please keep up the good, objective, and valuable research. Thank you for sharing.
> 
> SG


Thanks for the nice post. Let's put it this way....none of the stuff we're experimenting with is of ANY value without a control group (non treated) to compare it to. Without using a control group, such "results" will reflect the never ending cannabis forum drill of folks seeing what they expect (or hope) to see. 

Have fun,
UB


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## aladdin2685 (Apr 22, 2009)

good post + rep


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## TheFrozenChosen (Apr 23, 2009)

This is the first time I have used this supplement....I am growing in DWC in a 4'x4'x6' box....scrog style.....the first yielded 17oz with 1 600wt, the second 15oz of heavily crystallized bud (attr lower amount to extreme cold temps and low humidty through most of the grow -stunted-), the 3rd running right now has the addtn'l supplements. I have noticed the diff.....It might be my 3rd grow, but I have been around it for some time....The growth I am experiencing right now at day 24 is ASTOUNDING....I have added a second 600wt, but the stalks and piping are absolutely amazing....The inside of my box looks like a weed recliner.....I am shooting for 2lbs plus this run for various reasons all of which I don't think would have a chance if it wasn't for the "mich" supplement...

Grow well

TFC

p.s. I apologize for all the double posts early on...


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## dirt clean (Apr 24, 2009)

I think that worm castings are probably the best value for your money. Also for 15 dollars root organic sells a product that has fungi and bacteria. Bacteria is what mj likes best as it is an annual. Annuals prefer bacteria to fungi. Fungi fine, but dont forget bacteria teas and compost and worm castings to get them. Also place in soil. Aerate your teas with worm castings in them to stimulate the aerobic bacteria herd. That is the varitey you want. Aerobic. Add 1 tbsp of balcstrap unsulphered molassses to a gallon of RO water to feed the bacteria. Then aerate it for at least 24 hours with as much air as you can pump. You will have all the bacteria and fungi you want for a few startup dollars. I have my own wormxompost bin and am compost reg style too. I also by a product called super plant tonic by Blue Mountain Organic for 8 bucks off ebay. They add a lot of bacteria to this and other benes. It lasts a whole grow. Add a tbsp per gallon of tea. A lot of this would work great in a hydro reservoir.


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## bicycle racer (Apr 28, 2009)

i use advanced nutrients piranha and tarantula. growth is better with than without.


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## jointchief (May 12, 2009)

Naysayers be damned!

Voodoo Juice works perfectly. 

Check out my Aero grow journal, I have pictures of the Fungi colony on the roots (look at post #7):

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/190605-2nd-grow-3rd-attempt-aeroponic.html

First off I want to say that I was having horrible luck with my Aero systems. Water temperatures kept climbing to around 23-25 degrees C, and as a result some kind of a brown algae or bacteria developed, and covered the roots in sludge (causing root rot). I killed a lot of expensive feminized seedlings this way!!!! I have plenty of 35% hydrogen peroxide, and I know how to use it. For some reason this weird brown algae WOULD NOT DIE even after adding h202 to the reservoir. Things began to look hopeless...then a good friend of mine who has been growing in Aero for many years (who strictly uses only Advanced Nutrients products) recommended Voodoo Juice for my dying seedlings. I reluctantly took what was left of his empty bottle (there was only maybe 50 mL left total). I was reluctant to try ANYTHING by advanced nutrients, because like everyone else, I assumed that they were overhyped, overpriced, etc. I actually still to this day do NOT like 99% of Advanced Nutrient Products, there are a few that are OK but you can find alternative products made by other companys that do the same exact thing for 10 times less. ANYWAYS:

The latest seedlings were Blueberry (dutch passion), Mazar, and Alaskan Ice). I've killed quite a few of the Dutch Passion feminized Blueberries before this particular crop. The sprouts sat stillborn for many days without ANY type of growth or leaf development. The water began to turn brown with sludge (AGAIN). In total desperation, I drained the reservoir, sterilized it, refilled with my 30 ppm well water (I usually use distilled water, but I thought these guys were goners, so I said screw it) and added in the gen hydro nutes + some of the Voodoo Juice. To be honest I didn't really didn't expect them to survive. These poor babies looked exactly the same as the other 30-40 sprouts that I murdered in previous attempts. I waited a few days, and noticed that even though the water temperature was at 24 degrees C there was NO brown sludge! The directions on the bottle stated that you could not use any hydrogen peroxide with Voodoo Juice, or all of the beneficial micro-organisms would of course, die, so naturally I expected there to be out of control brown sludgey reservoir as a result. However, the tank was SPOTLESS and the plants also showed signs of SERIOUS growth. I popped off my neoprene grow mediums (thats right I grow in rubber, hah) and had a look underneath at the roots. I couldn't believe my fucking eyes. Covering the unhealthy looking brown taproots were these strange looking side "fungi roots". They almost could be mistaken for regular roots but they were bright white, and some of them looked transparent as well (like a jelly). The plants seemed to be taking in the nutrients very well, as I increased the PPM to 400ppm and they still did not burn! I never thought this stuff would work...but it definitely does. This shit SAVED MY PLANTS. They are doing well now, its hard to tell whats fungi and what is actually root matter. I have done some research and it appears that humbolt makes a product called Myco madness, which supposedly has more strains of fungi and bacteria than the Advanced Nutrient Voodoo Juice does, and of course its less than half the price. To all the naysayers: take a look at my root pictures, its fucking weird (look at POST #7 in my grow journal)!

Needless to say, I will NOT be growing without beneficial fungi and bacteria EVER AGAIN. Despite the fact that my 15 gallon reservoir remains at 24 degrees Celsius, WITHOUT HYDROGEN PEROXIDE, there is no visible signs of algae or any kind of bacterial slime. This stuff apparently kills off the other existing pathogens in the water (it cleans the water for you!). I can't wait to see what this stuff does to my ladies when its time to flower. I have the feeling that I will be able to go to a MUCH higher nutrient concentration than ever before (since the roots are now being assisted with nutrient uptake). I also have the feeling that my yield will be higher than ever before. JOY!


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## curious.george (May 13, 2009)

I use the stuff from fungi.com. I stopped using to for a while, but now I use it again. I found that with it my medium smells better when I am disposing of it if I used it. 

I stopped using it because I was also using some organic molasses fert and my ph would go up a lot each day. I started using H2O2 and chem nutes and the ph problems went away. Now that I have re-introduced them my ph ges up faster. It seems to me that it saves me money to use the beneficial fungi and more ph down rather than using H2O2. Also when I would run out of H2O2 things would get nasty fast, after maintaining steril conditions with H2O2 for a long time things go bad fast with out it. The benificial fungi is something I pretreat the medium with. So there is no running out crisis, also the H2O2 stains clothing, burns skin, and is a fire accelerant. So its sort of dangerious stuff. Using the beneficial fungi just makes my grow environment more plesent. I dont actually think my plants grow much faster or bigger begause of the benificial fungi, they are supposed to improve root zone efficenticy and since my root zone is super efficent due to coco coir and hydroponics that does not help me.

Basically it comes down to this: Your garden will produce dead plant matter. Something must happen to it. If you do nothig the fungi and bacteria already in the area will eat it. So you can sterilize, whch is ez and works great, or you can start your own little battle of the microbes and see who wins, if you add plenty of good microbes you have a good chance that the good microbes will win.


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## bicycle racer (May 13, 2009)

curious.george said:


> I use the stuff from fungi.com. I stopped using to for a while, but now I use it again. I found that with it my medium smells better when I am disposing of it if I used it.
> 
> I stopped using it because I was also using some organic molasses fert and my ph would go up a lot each day. I started using H2O2 and chem nutes and the ph problems went away. Now that I have re-introduced them my ph ges up faster. It seems to me that it saves me money to use the beneficial fungi and more ph down rather than using H2O2. Also when I would run out of H2O2 things would get nasty fast, after maintaining steril conditions with H2O2 for a long time things go bad fast with out it. The benificial fungi is something I pretreat the medium with. So there is no running out crisis, also the H2O2 stains clothing, burns skin, and is a fire accelerant. So its sort of dangerious stuff. Using the beneficial fungi just makes my grow environment more plesent. I dont actually think my plants grow much faster or bigger begause of the benificial fungi, they are supposed to improve root zone efficenticy and since my root zone is super efficent due to coco coir and hydroponics that does not help me.
> 
> Basically it comes down to this: Your garden will produce dead plant matter. Something must happen to it. If you do nothig the fungi and bacteria already in the area will eat it. So you can sterilize, whch is ez and works great, or you can start your own little battle of the microbes and see who wins, if you add plenty of good microbes you have a good chance that the good microbes will win.


 aquarium water normally has a huge population of various waste consuming bacteria both aerobic and anaerobic species i add this in conjunction with tarantula and piranha with good results. bad bacterial species have trouble getting a foothold


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## orzz (May 13, 2009)

bicycle racer said:


> aquarium water normally has a huge population of various waste consuming bacteria both aerobic and anaerobic species i add this in conjunction with tarantula and piranha with good results. bad bacterial species have trouble getting a foothold


I have been wondering about using aquarium water. Thanks for sharing the info.


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## bicycle racer (May 13, 2009)

just make sure the ph is proper most crowded aquaria have a ph appropriate for cannabis in soil or hydro otherwise manipulate as needed.


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## orzz (May 13, 2009)

bicycle racer said:


> just make sure the ph is proper most crowded aquaria have a ph appropriate for cannabis in soil or hydro otherwise manipulate as needed.


Are there any things to look out for, have you had any burns, over loading of ppm. I don't change the water out as often as I ought to on the aquarium, I am afraid of upping my ppm and loading the rez with (*N*)itrogen and *(P)*hosphorous.

Found this on _web_


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## born2killspam (May 13, 2009)

If fish can live in it then plants can't be hurt by any nutrient compounds it might contain.. (Salt water tanks being an exception)..


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## orzz (May 13, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> If fish can live in it then plants can't be hurt by any nutrient compounds it might contain.. (Salt water tanks being an exception)..


I don't know about that. The fresh water plants I had in the tank have all been replaced with plastic ones. Why, because all but one plant died!


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## born2killspam (May 14, 2009)

Doubt its from nutrient ppm type issues.. For a couple crops I played around with goldfish in the res.. I killed 100's of fish, and zero plants..
The person to talk to on the matter would definately be Seamaiden.. She has experience growing fish, dope, corals, the works..


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## bicycle racer (May 14, 2009)

me too i worked in the aquarium industry for many years on all types from ponds to reef aquaria. most aquatic plants sold need decent light levels to live and some sold are semi-terrestrial so eventually die in water. stick with anubias species amazon swords and other robust easy to care for plants that dont need more than 2 watts a gallon. for watering cannabis i use water from crowded aquaria with 100=+ppm's of nitrates i have never burned anything. i also use bogwood and peat moss in the aquariums i use water from it adds humic acids tannins etc... that keep the ph mildly acidic which cannabis prefers.


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## orzz (May 14, 2009)

Thanks guys for the aquarium info. Very helpful.


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## bicycle racer (May 14, 2009)

no problem any time.


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## jointchief (May 17, 2009)

I think the bacteria present in an aquarium are vastly different than those normally present in a typical rhizosphere. You also probably won't find any mycorrhizae (beneficial fungi) which (in my opinion) are the most beneficial symbiotic plant micro-organism currently known to man. Just from what I've seen with my aero setup, I've been able to double to triple the PPM nutrient levels that I normally run with just hydrogen peroxide + nutes without any signs of nutrient burn. Make sure than the reservoir is highly aerated, the beneficial bacteria are aerobic (while the disease causing bacteria are anaerobic) . I highly recommend purchasing Humboldts "Myco Madness", Gen Hydro's "Subculture", or Advanced Nutrients "Voodoo Juice". Give any one of these products a try, and you will never go back. Voodoo Juice, literally brought my plants back from the dead, and now they are taking in more nutes than I am even comfortable giving them. The fungus has totally taken over the roots of my plants. It is unlike anything I've seen before. For those of you who wish to learn more about beneficial plant micro-organisms, I recommend this book:

Plant associated bacteria (by Samuel S Gnanamanickam). Here is the google link so you can preview the book online:

http://books.google.com/books?id=gkGuRPBEutAC&dq=plant+associated+bacteria&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=v4QQSr6gCYWhjAeTiqSeBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4


80-90% of all plants that are grown outdoors have root system that are assisted by beneficial/symbiotic micro organisms. When you go indoors, and grow plants in a hydro system, these helpful micro-organisms are entirely absent and so are their benefits.


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## Mr. (Jun 7, 2009)

SpaghettiHeady

I have not done the scrog method yet, but from what I have read and seen the squares in your trellis look to big. Have you done scrog like that before? Do you prefer using larger squares rather than 2inx2in squares? 

Thanks


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## born2killspam (Jun 7, 2009)

The larger your holes the easier it is.. I've done scrog, and had a hell of a battle with it.. Now I like one big hole the size of the table perimeter..


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 7, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> The larger your holes the easier it is.. I've done scrog, and had a hell of a battle with it.. Now I like one big hole the size of the table perimeter..


That is funny.


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## born2killspam (Jun 7, 2009)

But the hours and hours of weaving and unweaving, trying not to damage growing shoots/buds was not funny..


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 8, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> But the hours and hours of weaving and unweaving, trying not to damage growing shoots/buds was not funny..


I understand, you don't have to put your hand on a hot stove to speculate you might get hurt. About 10 years ago when SCROG became trendy, I told The Herd at the only pot newsgroup available, ADPC, "no way, mama didn't raise no fool", and of course I got flamed for not going along. 

There's always caveats in this biz.


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## born2killspam (Jun 8, 2009)

But I REALLY gotta hand it to a few ppl who do remarkable shit with a screen.. Kalikitsune posted pics of a screen that he vegged into for well over 6 months iirc, and wow.. That was a damn nice canopy for two plants!


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## dirt clean (Jun 8, 2009)

well I spent the day with fungi. 

Now I am reading about the soil food web. It is a well written about subject. Google it! 

As I posted earlier that as mj is an annual it almost 100 percent can be said to be a bacteria lover as opposed to a fungi lover. However...

I am finding that the ratio is about a .8 fungi to a 1.0 bacteria ratio to even higher, as in a 1-1 ratio. Fungi will always have its place in the soil food web for the annuals too.

I read that someone saw a great slimy web over their roots dominating the rhizosphere is their hydro. This got me thinking. That sounds like an ecto-myco as in on the outside. Mostly trees and large shrubds prefer this, anything really with a long life. Endo is what the reading typically suggests for herbs and vegtables, which mean inside the roots themselves the fungi will populate. We grow these plants fairly long for annuals. Plants decided what bacteria and fungi they want by sending off "exudates" or chemical beckoning food treats. They amazingly compute all this for themselves and that is not fully understood. Pretty cool, they can feed the goodies like pets. Sos it also logical that a plant might want both to sustain itself, an mj plant. 

Whatever the case I think the best bet is too just feed the plant both and let it choose. Also the same with bacteria that most fast plants attract. But we got to feed the plant these creatures first, also if they do die off. I bet foxfarms does already, but shit happens.


I now think that humbolts myco would be cool, but nevertheless I started to make my own.

It is actually quite common and simple. I got some compost. I then read to get some oatmeal or soymeal and mix it at a ratio of one teapsoon oats to a cup of compost. Add enough water that when yu squeeze the mass a drop of water would come out. Then put it in the dark with a seedling heat mat. In a few days a web of sorts will form of fungi. This can be added to a tea in the moments before yu use it, as fungi are delicate or topdressed and watered in. I used soy protien shake as I had no oats. lol. 

Anyway I cant wait to try to add this in. Also I had some herb and tomato organic food laying around and decided to throw a tbsp of that in. According to that it contained fungi and bacteria beneficials. 

Also I came across a lot of info that any P over 10 will actually kill of fungi! I use about a 1-8-7 or a 3-13-9 with an indo bat guano topdressing. I might back off if I see the fungi take root or read more, as in worm castings and omost tea have gotten them in, but I doubt it. They got to be nurtured. With this increased bacteria and fungi in the rhizosphere, a pretty cool word, oone should have to feed less str anyway as the beasties make up for it with increased uptake. Also I read that a good fungi will lower the ph as a good bacteria will raise it. I dont know aobut yu but I need some natural ph down. 

Myco fungi is awesome as they can increase the root mass by a million and help the plant in about a billion ways.  The before and after pictures are amazing. As always if yu are brewing yer teas try removing your airstones and using some real air. "Real" as in if worked properly yu can esatblish a frothy bacteria colony in 12 hours. No airstones as in the small bublles will kill yer fungi in a flash. Ass the fungi in after brewing the bacteria. Then feed. If one shoudl add in the fungi an hour or 5 minutes before pouring I have yet to read or experminet.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 9, 2009)

Just a few comments - the endo/ecto hyphae can not be seen by the naked eye. If you're using a rich organic mix that has compost or a manure product in it, the native microbes in your mix will "eat them suckas"..... stuff you put in, too much of a good thing is many times not only expensive and is big waste, but if it makes you feel good, then go for it. Remember, plants grow well under conditions that they are getting the right salts in the right ratio, essential nutrients. There are some beneficial nutrients that might enhance disease resistance and such.......

Bacteria are found in abundance in the soils of grass fields, prairie plains..... fungi amongst trees, forests.

Have fun,
UB


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## dirt clean (Jun 9, 2009)

well, as to the naked eye their man, lol, no, but we can see the rest of the world clinging to it. I got many a photo right here of a nice ecto fungi web as evidenced by the larger dirt structure connected to the root ball. I mean they pick up the plant and the non myco plant is shown next to a myco innoculated plant and they look drastically different in the root area. The soil web is "there". Best explained by a googled pic. You can see both in this fashion I beleive. 

I nice fungi to bacteria ratio is a good bet for a big annual like mj. It is time that predicts weather it is a fungi or bacteria dominated soil. Plants in the forest are older. The plant attracts what it will. There is no doubt a good myco and bacteria rich soil will help the plant. And it is free. Just bubble. 

Seriously it is more than disease that these microrganisms help with. This is standard science. 

As to killing off what I add. Not really sure that they would. As they would most likely love a fresh innoculation. Most likely in an indoor mj setup the myco is dead due to salts and P overdose. Same as bacteria. For the lazy, such as msyelf, the benefits outway the free or 12 dollar startup cost. I am finding although with the increased help from the bacteria care would have to be taken not tip burn. Not by much, and really that is awesome! I am finding as it is saving me a ton of money.  Way less than all chem route. A lot less fert is neeeded.


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## curious.george (Jun 13, 2009)

I use this stuff from fungi.com and along with a little fish fertilizer to feed the spores I purchased in coco coir. The coco coir comes in a brick that expands with water. I mix the salt nutes, fish fertilizer, and spores in the water before dropping my compacted brick in that soup to soak it up. 

In 7 days I can see the fungi strands in the coco! Not with a microscope, just by looking and not even from very close up, I will see patches of white fungi in my medium. Also I can transplant sooner, without the stuff from fungi.com if I transplant too soon, the plants root system will not be big enough to hold the medium together. With the stuff from fungi.com the medium pops out of the container as one big mass that hold together. The other thing I am 100% sure of that is impacted by the addition of beneficial spores changes the smell of my medium when dispose of my used coco. Without the spores the coco sometimes had a rotten or manure like smell, but with the spores the medium has a nice earthy smell. 
Uncle Ben, do you not believe me?

One last point: A few years back I was reading about mycorrhizal fungus and organic hydroponics and I got a bunch of random organic products and spores and it was a huge disaster. It took some time to realize I needed to not add a lot of random stuff to my root zone. I think adding mycorrhizal spores is often done with a lot of random organic stuff and this is just a bad idea.


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## bicycle racer (Jun 13, 2009)

i do the smell test for root health when i harvest i tear open the root ball from a harvested hempy or soil grow it has a pleasant earthy clean smell. if there is any stagnant rotten or sulphur like smell thats bad and also limp or discolored roots is also an indicator of poor root health. i do feel additional funguses and bacterial populations are beneficial and at worst do no harm.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 15, 2009)

curious.george said:


> I use this stuff from fungi.com and along with a little fish fertilizer to feed the spores I purchased in coco coir. The coco coir comes in a brick that expands with water. I mix the salt nutes, fish fertilizer, and spores in the water before dropping my compacted brick in that soup to soak it up.
> 
> In 7 days I can see the fungi strands in the coco! Not with a microscope, just by looking and not even from very close up, I will see patches of white fungi in my medium. Also I can transplant sooner, without the stuff from fungi.com if I transplant too soon, the plants root system will not be big enough to hold the medium together. With the stuff from fungi.com the medium pops out of the container as one big mass that hold together. The other thing I am 100% sure of that is impacted by the addition of beneficial spores changes the smell of my medium when dispose of my used coco. Without the spores the coco sometimes had a rotten or manure like smell, but with the spores the medium has a nice earthy smell.
> Uncle Ben, do you not believe me?


Sure that's myco, or is it some other stuff? Perhaps you're seeing the mat although you did say you see fungi filaments..... don't know and it really doesn't matter. If it works for you then that's what counts. 



> Arbuscular mycorrhizas are roots with specific types of fungi inside them and in the surrounding soil. This type of mycorrhiza is formed by fungi in a group generally referred to as arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. These fungi are characterised by having very thin threadlike structures, called hyphae, which are *between 1 and 10 thousandths of a millimetre* in width.


http://www.soilhealth.com/fungi/


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## MoonChildg13 (Jun 15, 2009)

In regards to benefical bacteria I fully agree with on person's post here that MJ like bacteria more so than mycorr. If one gets into a pinch and does not want to spend a crapload of money of those sold (and they are expensive) then try what I did. WAIT, better yet...send me $5.00 and I will send you 5oz of Benefical Bacteria and when I run out I'm gonna run to the grocery store and get some more Rid-X. Yelp, that's right the same product ppl use for the septic tank and it's $6.00 for just over 10oz. It's all benefical bacteria with molasses. I've used it a few times and have not seen any less growth than my homemade bacteria. Matter of fact when I brew my tea I always add a TBSP of Rid-X.....


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## bicycle racer (Jun 15, 2009)

i would assume its similar to organic digesters found in products for ponds and the like. needless to say there useful but contain no myco funguses so that would have to be sourced elsewhere.


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## curious.george (Jun 16, 2009)

I e-mailed fungi.com and there stuff has 1,000,000,000 CFU's per gram.


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## tea tree (Jun 16, 2009)

for a good cheap product I would say rooters is a good deal. In fact all the myco products look good, and in fact if you are using soil like light wariior it should have your myco. Your plant will feed them carbs and stuff and it should all work as decent soil health. However we are growing inside in containers and also some hi P applications. Fungi cannot tolerate anyhtng P over 10 so that settles that. But withthe addition of fungi and bacteria we dont really need that much fert. That is one purpose of ading the beasties. They make full use of all the fert. None is lost, both with bigger root zones and more bacteria to feed plant. The myco gives a bigger root zone. Our variety should atract endo, but maybe it would take some ecto as we grow it so long. I asked the master gardenr of SD and she said to keep experimenting but nothing should hurt. Obscure thing to ask. Lol. 

So rooters, then guardian, then humbolt, then the advanced is how I looked at it. Rooters is probably good enough but who knows how well they control the quality. Alsp the weights and varites change. I looked and it looked you get what ou pay for, but rooters looked ok. So yeah, but I would add some, man look for pics of plants with and without on google. They are concinving

Oh yeah, rootersi si 10 bucks

oh yeah, in my soil web manual those strands of myco are good. Add that or better yet grow in it it says. I read to use some as a topdress to soil.


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## Chumlie (Jul 1, 2009)

uncle ben I got this stuff from the health store. Its called root zone by Down to Earth Distributors.


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## born2killspam (Jul 2, 2009)

Is that made from Cherokee hair??

(Sorry, couldn't resist..)


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## mindphuk (Jul 2, 2009)

This product has potential. http://www.super-grow.biz/MycoMaxx.jsp


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## curious.george (Jul 5, 2009)

I was suggesting some sort of controlled test in this other related thread:
https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/202270-bacterea-increases-plant-growth-2.html

anyone interested in participating with their myco. solution? Seems like there are a few different products out there and it is impossible to compare them with the currently published information we have. I was thinking of a test with some simple plant like basil, to not use up room in the grow closet with a experiment, and maybe an experiment where we mix it with something like earth worm castings and observe the fungi growth.


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## tea tree (Jul 5, 2009)

read about the soil food web. Googling this or reading the book, the soil food web by jeff lowenfels will give you all the evidence and knowledge you need about bacteria and fungi. It actually is pretty standard to all gardens and dirt and some special moves should be made with comtainer gardens and or any soil where chemical ferts or P products over 10 have been used. 

Chem salts kill your beneficial organisms in the soil. I use rooters myco for 10 dollars, and super plant tonic, and worm castings and compost tea (which is all you ever rally need) to get the beasties back or into my soil. Also I feed them some molasses to feed them. Once in the soil the plant will attract the ones it likes. Most annuals will choose an endo fungi and the bacteria to go along with it. It will need bacteria more than fungi in the soil but all plants need the myco for the roots. 

Plants without myco are pathetic I have seen in many photos, right next to plants easily twice as big. It is a big deal to have myco, also let ferts need to be used.


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## curious.george (Jul 5, 2009)

tea tree said:


> read about the soil food web. Googling this or reading the book, the soil food web by jeff lowenfels will give you all the evidence and knowledge you need about bacteria and fungi. It actually is pretty standard to all gardens and dirt and some special moves should be made with comtainer gardens and or any soil where chemical ferts or P products over 10 have been used.
> 
> Chem salts kill your beneficial organisms in the soil. I use rooters myco for 10 dollars, and super plant tonic, and worm castings and compost tea (which is all you ever rally need) to get the beasties back or into my soil. Also I feed them some molasses to feed them. Once in the soil the plant will attract the ones it likes. Most annuals will choose an endo fungi and the bacteria to go along with it. It will need bacteria more than fungi in the soil but all plants need the myco for the roots.
> 
> Plants without myco are pathetic I have seen in many photos, right next to plants easily twice as big. It is a big deal to have myco, also let ferts need to be used.


I was not questioning if the stuff works at all, the question I was trying to answer is:
Product A cost X money,
Product B cost Y money.
Will I get more benefit from A B
--- or ---
X Y

each place that sells the spores sells a slightly different product, I use an expensive product that is super concentrated. Would I save money with a less expensive product, or is it just diluted or not as alive. Maybe one place stores there stuff for a long time and it is mostly dead. Maybe a trace of one product is as good as a lot of another. Does one product work much better due to stronger strains regardless of how much is applied. These are the kinds of questions I look to investigate. Make sense?


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 5, 2009)

curious.george said:


> I was not questioning if the stuff works at all, the question I was trying to answer is:
> Product A cost X money,
> Product B cost Y money.
> Will I get more benefit from A B
> ...


No one knows. It's all about blind faith.

Solution, suggest you buy yourself an electron microscope.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 5, 2009)

mindphuk said:


> This product has potential. http://www.super-grow.biz/MycoMaxx.jsp


They are taking my original product, repackaging it and marking it up.


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## jberry (Nov 3, 2009)

the source matters... myco apply is not the best....



Products were tested by Western Labs. The lab tests 50ml samples of product. To put the data into perspective Ron Wallance, a well known Giant Pumpkin grower, had his cover crop soil tested. His spore count was 600, showing that common Mycorrhizal products are lacking in potency. Although Western Labs has said that anything above 30 is considered 'good'.
The product from RTI that appears in these charts is Pumpkin Pro. We settled on the 3000 figure because our counts varied from as high as 10,000 and down to 1500.























https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/262494-mycorrhiza-101-a-2.html#post3340230


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 4, 2009)

Guess it comes down to who you want to believe. That would be a feeling thingie, not a fact.

http://www.mycorrhizae.com/index.php?cid=167

Each one will pose somebody's "independent research" to push their products. It's all about the money.


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## bicycle racer (Nov 4, 2009)

i wonder how advanced piranha and tarantula fair they seem to up yields for me.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 4, 2009)

bicycle racer said:


> i wonder how advanced piranha and tarantula fair they seem to up yields for me.


Ask them for a reference to a non-partisan analysis. Just because they say it contains this and that, doesn't mean it does. Or if it does, doesn't mean you get what you pay for.

Best way to increase yields, and the cheapest, it understanding what makes a plant tick. Certainly won't be found in a pretty bottle with a pretty name.

UB


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## jberry (Nov 4, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Guess it comes down to who you want to believe. That would be a feeling thingie, not a fact.
> 
> http://www.mycorrhizae.com/index.php?cid=167
> 
> Each one will pose somebody's "independent research" to push their products. It's all about the money.



yea it is all about the money... I know great white works well but seems to be a huge rip off and i dont like how it has 9% nitrogen...

The company that claims to be the best in that chart has agreed to send me free product... they said they would be happy for there product to be tested against any competitors.... they also told me that I could have the product tested for around $35.00 dollars (depending on who tests it) and that if the spore count was lower than 1500 than i would recieve a refund... they also claim to use no fillers... its a 25% / 25% / 50% mix of pure goods.

This stuff is really cheap compared to other similar products... a 4oz. jar of great white is $35..... or you can get pumpkin pro for as cheap as $8.00 a pound.

i know everyone claims to be the best... i will do my usual side by side and let everyone know what happens.


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## jberry (Nov 4, 2009)

the link you posted is probably correct..... they dont list the companies that they tested against.... so i could believe that they were the winners.... I wonder if they tested mykos, pumkin pro, or great white?

anyhow yea, i understand and agree with a lot of your snake oil beliefs but i dont agree completely with everything you say.... but i still got respect for your views and i always like to hear someone hate on AN so.... keep on rockin uncle ben...

have a good one!


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 5, 2009)

jberry said:


> the link you posted is probably correct..... they dont list the companies that they tested against.... so i could believe that they were the winners.... I wonder if they tested mykos, pumkin pro, or great white?
> 
> anyhow yea, i understand and agree with a lot of your snake oil beliefs but i dont agree completely with everything you say.... but i still got respect for your views and i always like to hear someone hate on AN so.... keep on rockin uncle ben...
> 
> have a good one!


Do you mean MYCO MADNESS by Humboldt? http://www.horticulturesource.com/humboldt-nutrients-myco-madness-soluble-1lb-12-cs-p5882/ Price is double from what I pay and it goes without saying, it's another rip. With shipping, a $5 "handling fee" and the price of the goods we're talking $89 to my door! 

What I buy, Myco-Apply Soluble Max is $38 and makes up to 200 gallons of drench which allows me to use it commercially in the field. BTW, if you're using a decent compost, you don't need any of this stuff, not that it necessarily improves plant anyway. Adding peat moss and compost or castings to your potting soil and you're good to go regarding your desire for humates, microbes, etc.

UB


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## bicycle racer (Nov 5, 2009)

the plant supplement industry is similar to the human supplement industry the key to not getting burned is doing your own research and educating yourself on the biology of plants and the organisms that live with them. at which point you can make an educated opinion on whats worth spending money on. some products are worth it and useful and some are pure snake oil.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 5, 2009)

bicycle racer said:


> the plant supplement industry is similar to the human supplement industry....


Very reason why I always buy generic, NON-organic aka non "natural" vitamins or supplements. I will not get sucked into the scare tactics and propaganda spewed by the green movement wackos.

Now.....where in the hell did I put that ouija board?


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## jberry (Nov 6, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Do you mean MYCO MADNESS by Humboldt? http://www.horticulturesource.com/humboldt-nutrients-myco-madness-soluble-1lb-12-cs-p5882/ Price is double from what I pay and it goes without saying, it's another rip. With shipping, a $5 "handling fee" and the price of the goods we're talking $89 to my door!
> 
> What I buy, Myco-Apply Soluble Max is $38 and makes up to 200 gallons of drench which allows me to use it commercially in the field. BTW, if you're using a decent compost, you don't need any of this stuff, not that it necessarily improves plant anyway. Adding peat moss and compost or castings to your potting soil and you're good to go regarding your desire for humates, microbes, etc.
> 
> UB



no. i know about the many humboldt products , but i mean MYKOS by xtreme gardening/RTI........ its fresh pure inoculant without filler and has a huge reputation in the pumpkin growing world under the name "*Symbios Pumpkin Pro*" 
mykos / pumpkin pro... same product/same company but two different names.
they say the most important thing is that it is fresh and of coarse claim that most brands arent and theirs is....

but its cheap... 18 dollars for a pound of mykos or 60 dollars for 10 pounds....

they said i could have it tested myself against any competitor at many labs for around 35 bucks.... and if it had a lower spore count or a count below 1500 (30 is concider good), they would refund me and give me new fresh inoculant for free.

they shipped me some for free, so i guess i got nothing to lose on this round... 
I found that most nutrient companies will just give you their products for free if you ask right... at that point the price of the product doesnt matter... i try it, if it works i buy more, if not i dont. 

 mycos apply is one of the better ones as well.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 6, 2009)

jberry said:


> they say the most important thing is that it is fresh and of coarse claim that most brands arent and theirs is....


Normal shelf life is at least 2 years if you keep it in a cool place. 

Like I said, it's all about the money and neither you or I can qualify their claims. It's a matter of blind trust. This stuff is not regulated being that it falls under a "non-conventional" additive, so these guys can pee in a bottle, call it Grandma's Wonderful Sunshine and sell it for 90 a liter.....and get away with it.


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## jberry (Nov 6, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Normal shelf life is at least 2 years if you keep it in a cool place.
> 
> Like I said, it's all about the money and neither you or I can qualify their claims. It's a matter of blind trust. This stuff is not regulated being that it falls under a "non-conventional" additive, so these guys can pee in a bottle, call it Grandma's Wonderful Sunshine and sell it for 90 a liter.....and get away with it.


true dat.............. but regardless of all their claims, some companies products ARE actually better than others... finding which is which is the challange.

anyhow i got a pound for free and a bunch of smaller samples of some of their other blends... they even overnight mailed it.

if it works well, then it happens to be way cheaper than most of the other companies when i buy more.


ive read 2 year shelf life from some sources as well..... but that sounds like blind faith as u would say.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 6, 2009)

jberry said:


> anyhow i got a pound for free and a bunch of smaller samples of some of their other blends... they even overnight mailed it.
> 
> if it works well, then it happens to be way cheaper than most of the other companies when i buy more.


That's a great score! Have fun....


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## GreenGaint (Nov 19, 2009)

Here is a site to GROW your own from HOME
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=63352

I have been experimenting with raw material like 80-100% ingredients,80% humic acid, 70%fulvic acid,amino acids, blackmolasses,kelp,mycorrihial seems to love this stuff, this guy also sell flower booster 52% potash, magnesium,
has USDA/ORMI Certified.Most of the plant booster are from this type of ingredients.The owner called me 3-4 times to make sure Iam happy with his products and was very happy about answering any questions I had. Plus it whole lot cheaper!! Check out the ingredients,just like the bottles you buy at the store.
http://stores.ebay.com/The-Organic-Store

Peace


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## Jack in the Bud (Nov 28, 2009)

UB,

On my last grow I got a 4 oz. container of Roots Organics "Oregonism" (endo/ecto mycrorrhizae) and watered it in per instructions shortly after the seeds sprouted. When I depotted after this last harvest, and examined the root balls I couldn't see where it made a dam bit of improvement over what I'd had the crop before that when I hadn't used it.

Admittedly this wasn't the most scientifically conducted trial but it was enough for me to decide I wouldn't be spending any more money on that particular ptoduct.

Jack


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## jberry (Nov 28, 2009)

yea that sucks, i wouldnt use that product again either if i were you.

something else to keep in mind is:
If you used a water source with chlorine or chlormine then it may have just killed your fungi off before they even had a chance... Any products containing H2o2 would kill them as well.... Also, a high EC of chemical fertilizer would also cause problems.

but look for a product that is high in endo-mycorrhizae the endo's are the important ones... 

Some products have both endo mycorrhizae and ecto-mycorrhizae listed on the label. Ecto mycorrhizae inoculum has huge spore counts with concentrations of 80 million or more per c.c. It is therefore inexpensive to add a little and report large spore counts in a product. They are however only of value to most conifers and a few hardwoods. Endo mycorrhizae forms beneficial associations with over 80% of all plants including most commercial fruit and vegetable crops (except the brassica (cabbage), chenopod (spinach and beets). Pigweed and other members of the Amaranthae family are also not able to form mycorrhizal associations.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 29, 2009)

Jack in the Bud said:


> UB,
> 
> On my last grow I got a 4 oz. container of Roots Organics "Oregonism" (endo/ecto mycrorrhizae) and watered it in per instructions shortly after the seeds sprouted. When I depotted after this last harvest, and examined the root balls I couldn't see *where it made a dam bit of improvement over what I'd had the crop before that when I hadn't used it.*
> 
> ...


I understand, reason why I started this thread with the caveat emptor tone. You're speaking from experience, not theory the latter based on hype, ads, claims, etc. If a seller is saying such and such, WATCH OUT! They have one agenda and one only, to make money. They are not necessarily your friend nor are they your agent looking out for your best interests. Look, the human element is such that "people are dreamers, and con men fulfill that dream." (especially when applied to cannabis growers who are probably the biggest group of dreamers I've ever met)

IOW, if it sounds too good to be true......

I have always used tapwater which was high in chlorine and had no problems. I lived right next to the water processing plant so the ppm was at its highest level as opposed to being 40 miles at the end of the line where the Cl levels greatly fall off but are still concentrated enough to provide sanitary water. 

Check out some of the rootballs, do they not look healthy, robust, etc.? 
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html

My plants rootballs are ALWAYS very massive, well branched and healthy at harvest as reflected in the many posts of them over the years.

Fellers, when is the last time you measured your soil's microbial count? May I borrow your high tech lab equipment, electron microscope, etc.?


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## georgi345 (Nov 29, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Fellers, when is the last time you measured your soil's microbial count? May I borrow your high tech lab equipment, electron microscope, etc.?


well, while it may not give one an actual (accurate) microherd count, it's still pretty amazing what can be done with a regular ol' lab scope ==> http://www.microbeorganics.com/

cheers
-g


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 29, 2009)

Jack in the Bud said:


> UB,
> 
> On my last grow I got a 4 oz. container of Roots Organics "Oregonism" (endo/ecto mycrorrhizae) and watered it in per instructions shortly after the seeds sprouted. When I depotted after this last harvest, and examined the root balls I couldn't see where it made a dam bit of improvement over what I'd had the crop before that when I hadn't used it.
> 
> ...


Are you saying there was no fungi colonies on your roots whatsoever? Or were there, and just no noticeable improvement in plant growth?


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## jberry (Nov 29, 2009)

u can use chlorine water with good results..........

high levels of chlorine will also kill beneficial bacteria or at the very least slow their growth.

after all, that is the reason chlorine is added to tap water... (to kill bacteria that could harm humans)


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 29, 2009)

jberry said:


> after all, that is the reason chlorine is added to tap water... (to kill bacteria that could harm humans)


Humans, bacteria, etc. I don't think there is soul here that can distinguish the difference between beneficial microbes for plants, their function, harmful bacterial agents for humans, etc.


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## georgi345 (Nov 29, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Humans, bacteria, etc. I don't think there is soul here that can distinguish the difference between beneficial microbes for plants, their function, harmful bacterial agents for humans, etc.




that's true!



but it's unalloyed fun to look at the little microbeasties under the scope as one studies, learns, and ponders on their identity and efficacy...



cheers
-g


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## trichomeKid (Nov 30, 2009)

Great thread UB and fellas! Im currently using a product called mycoroot which is made up of locally harvested and cultured endo and ecto native to my country's soils/climate etc. 
Im using a peat mix with fine dol lime; perlite; worm castings; steamed bone meal; blood meal and very light touch of finely sifted homemade compost and my added mycoroot. I left this to brew for about a month prior to using. I also made a small seperate mix with the same ratios just without the mycoroot. I treated two pots with the myc.mix and the other to with the other mix. Also out of being a sceptic.
Out of the 4 afghan seeds 1 didn't sprout which was in one of the untreated pots. (not that im saying it was because it was untreated) I only fed them rain water with which I add a liquid fulvic acid. I saw a difference in vigor in the first 3 weeks of growth. The two treated plants had noticebly bigger fans, slightly thicker stems and had darker colour shoots. I also noticed that the untreated soil had to be watered more often than the treated soil. They are currently 9 weeks old from seed and I transplanted the two treated plants into big ass 5 gal pots about 2 weeks ago and left the untreated plant in the same 1.5 gal pot (for space reasons). So from here on out I can't really compare them fairly anymore as the two are already double the size of the other one because of the new space but it gave me a good indication in the first month! All in all they are really doing great so I can't complain.

I think these products really assist in expanding existing collonies in soils and will really benefit new seedlings or cuttings and give them a jump start. I also think it will really benefit the noob organic gardener as it helps keep salts and moisture under control.

Happy growing all.


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## georgi345 (Dec 1, 2009)

just for the fun of microscopy, here's tonight's specimen from a lacto b. serum rice-wash inoculum (500x)... 







cheers
-g


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## plaguedog (Dec 2, 2009)

tea tree said:


> read about the soil food web. Googling this or reading the book, the soil food web by jeff lowenfels will give you all the evidence and knowledge you need about bacteria and fungi. It actually is pretty standard to all gardens and dirt and some special moves should be made with comtainer gardens and or any soil where chemical ferts or P products over 10 have been used.
> 
> Chem salts kill your beneficial organisms in the soil. I use rooters myco for 10 dollars, and super plant tonic, and worm castings and compost tea (which is all you ever rally need) to get the beasties back or into my soil. Also I feed them some molasses to feed them. Once in the soil the plant will attract the ones it likes. Most annuals will choose an endo fungi and the bacteria to go along with it. It will need bacteria more than fungi in the soil but all plants need the myco for the roots.
> 
> Plants without myco are pathetic I have seen in many photos, right next to plants easily twice as big. It is a big deal to have myco, also let ferts need to be used.



Chem salts mixed with organics is not as harmful as some would be lead to believe, and I'm mainly one of those try to grow 100% organic guys (just for the pure convenience factor and ease of growth) There have been more recent studies that actually show chems salts are taken into the plant easier with a mix of the two...hmm let me find the link to the University studies.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/23357529/RhizobacteriaAndFertilizers

I find it pretty interesting actually. To me the biggest problem people have when trying to grow organically is they let the soil get to dry. That's a huge mistake I think with any type of soil/soil-less medium, organics or not. I'm not sure how the whole let the plants dry out then drench with water myth started but I never let mine completely dry out.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 2, 2009)

plaguedog said:


> Chem salts mixed with organics is not as harmful as some would be lead to believe, and I'm mainly one of those try to grow 100% organic guys


What's ironical about the organic purists, is that it's the chemicals in the organics that make them work. (shhhhhhh, let "them" go on believing.)

Don't believe the propaganda. "Chemical" is not a bad word, it's a lame mantra.


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## Guest999 (Dec 28, 2009)

For my soil mix I use fox farms ocean forest with 20% perlite, a cup of pulverized dolomite lime, and 1/2 strength fox farms marine cuisine. I also use the fox farms nutient trio (grow big, big bloom, tiger bloom) along with molasses and cal-mag plus (RO water) for my nutrients. Would any of these products work with my current schedule?


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 28, 2009)

Well they dont hurt your plant so why not. I use a Myco additive along with Fox Farms liquid trio and even though the nutes are not 100% organic, my myco colonies are not affected in any way by the ferts.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 28, 2009)

Guest999 said:


> For my soil mix I use fox farms ocean forest with 20% perlite, a cup of pulverized dolomite lime, and 1/2 strength fox farms marine cuisine. I also use the fox farms nutient trio (grow big, big bloom, tiger bloom) along with molasses and cal-mag plus (RO water) for my nutrients. Would any of these products work with my current schedule?


So, what's the final NPK values that your plants see? 

A cup of lime in how much total mix? Why are you using cal-mag when you have alot of dolomite?


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## Guest999 (Dec 28, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> So, what's the final NPK values that your plants see?
> 
> A cup of lime in how much total mix? Why are you using cal-mag when you have alot of dolomite?


I'm not sure the final npk values but i can look it up. I cup dolomite per 1.5 cubic feet of ocean forest. I use the cal-mag to supplement of course, my leaf tips were looking bad and the leaves were generally poor looking before i started the cal-mag.

---during flower the tiger bloom is 2-8-4 and i use 2 tsp per gallon, big bloom is like .01-.3-.7 at 1 tblsp per gallon.


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## abe23 (Dec 28, 2009)

Guest999 said:


> I'm not sure the final npk values but i can look it up. I cup dolomite per 1.5 cubic feet of ocean forest. I use the cal-mag to supplement of course, my leaf tips were looking bad and the leaves were generally poor looking before i started the cal-mag.
> 
> ---during flower the tiger bloom is 2-8-4 and i use 2 tsp per gallon, big bloom is like .01-.3-.7 at 1 tblsp per gallon.


This is kind of a dumb comment/question, but does anyone think it would be possible to grow truffles in the roots of cannabis plants? I know they're mycorrhizal fungi and i think they're usually grown on rosemary...


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## Guest999 (Dec 28, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> Well they dont hurt your plant so why not. I use a Myco additive along with Fox Farms liquid trio and even though the nutes are not 100% organic, my myco colonies are not affected in any way by the ferts.


What product do you use? looking for something that will live in the solution i feed the plants.

-Abe i always thought truffles grew around oaks not too sure though. I really don't know much at all about the subject but if the conditions in the cannabis resembles those in the truffles natural habitat i dont see why it wouldn't work.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 28, 2009)

Guest999 said:


> I'm not sure the final npk values but i can look it up. I cup dolomite per 1.5 cubic feet of ocean forest. I use the cal-mag to supplement of course, my leaf tips were looking bad and the leaves were generally poor looking before i started the cal-mag.
> 
> ---during flower the tiger bloom is 2-8-4 and i use 2 tsp per gallon, big bloom is like .01-.3-.7 at 1 tblsp per gallon.


A cursory guess is that's way too much Ca and not enough N.


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## Guest999 (Dec 28, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> A cursory guess is that's way too much Ca and not enough N.


what would you suggest to add more N?

Edit: are you saying that there is too much Ca and not enough N to support a fungal colony, or just in general?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 28, 2009)

Guest999 said:


> what would you suggest to add more N?


Blood meal, about 2 tsp. per gallon of mix.


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## Guest999 (Dec 28, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Blood meal, about 2 tsp. per gallon of mix.


I edited the last post not sure if you saw. So can i just go to lows and get generic blood meal...miracle grow or scotts?


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 28, 2009)

Guest999 said:


> What product do you use? looking for something that will live in the solution i feed the plants.
> 
> -Abe i always thought truffles grew around oaks not too sure though. I really don't know much at all about the subject but if the conditions in the cannabis resembles those in the truffles natural habitat i dont see why it wouldn't work.


I use Super Plant Tonic from Blue Mountain Organics. You can buy from them on Ebay. Theres also a thread about their products in the Organics section. 

Heres a product description of it:

http://www.angelfire.com/ar2/tts/bmospt.html


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## Guest999 (Dec 28, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> I use Super Plant Tonic from Blue Mountain Organics. You can buy from them on Ebay. Theres also a thread about their products in the Organics section.
> 
> Heres a product description of it:
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/ar2/tts/bmospt.html


And you do see positive results? Have you compared plants grown with and without it? I was reading the dosage instructions and it says i would use 1 gallon for my 5 gallon pots each weak. Do you feed it all at once or between the seperate waterings? Also do you mix it in with you nutrient solution, or separate? $7.50 is a great price btw.

thanks


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 28, 2009)

Guest999 said:


> And you do see positive results? Have you compared plants grown with and without it? I was reading the dosage instructions and it says i would use 1 gallon for my 5 gallon pots each weak. Do you feed it all at once or between the seperate waterings? Also do you mix it in with you nutrient solution, or separate? $7.50 is a great price btw.
> 
> thanks


I havent done a side-by side test with it. The best way to really see if they make a difference is if someone did a grow from clones. If I ever get a chance to do so in the future, I will definitely do it.

Yeah, I do feed it all at once. I try to do it weekly like they suggest, and if it happens to fall on the same day I am using nutes, then I just mix them together.

It'll last awhile. Ive still got about 20% of a bottle left. That has lasted through 81 days for my first grow, and 50 days for my second grow that is going on as well. 15 plants total.

You can buy it as part of their package deal. Veg nutes, flower nutes, foliar feed, and spt for $25 I think. Pretty good deal Id say.


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## Guest999 (Dec 29, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> I havent done a side-by side test with it. The best way to really see if they make a difference is if someone did a grow from clones. If I ever get a chance to do so in the future, I will definitely do it.
> 
> Yeah, I do feed it all at once. I try to do it weekly like they suggest, and if it happens to fall on the same day I am using nutes, then I just mix them together.
> 
> ...


So Dave, 
Do you follow the FF feeding schedule?


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 29, 2009)

Guest999 said:


> So Dave,
> Do you follow the FF feeding schedule?


I start out at 1/4th strength and move up to 1/2, then full strength if plants dont get burned along the way. Some plants dont like full strength like a sativa, so always start low and work your way up.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 30, 2009)

Guest999 said:


> So Dave,
> Do you follow the FF feeding schedule?


Why would anyone follow someone's else's schedule or a chart? No 2 plants are alike, no 2 gardens are alike. Don't mean to be rude, but I need to make a point directed at all new growers, not just you. If you have to follow some chart or schedule, you shouldn't be growing! Why? Because you have allowed someone to manipulate you and your garden will suffer for it. Empower yourself, learn what makes a plant tick.

Plants are dynamic, they can't read, they only react to what's given to them. Naturally a 4" tall seedling or a plant that is 3 weeks from harvest (barely bulking up) will not *REQUIRE* the same amount of salts (nutes) that a plant will that is putting on 2" of height a day during its stretch (bulking up) phase.

Does this make sense?

UB


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## Guest999 (Dec 31, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Why would anyone follow someone's else's schedule or a chart? No 2 plants are alike, no 2 gardens are alike. Don't mean to be rude, but I need to make a point directed at all new growers, not just you. If you have to follow some chart or schedule, you shouldn't be growing! Why? Because you have allowed someone to manipulate you and your garden will suffer for it. Empower yourself, learn what makes a plant tick.
> 
> Plants are dynamic, they can't read, they only react to what's given to them. Naturally a 4" tall seedling or a plant that is 3 weeks from harvest (barely bulking up) will not *REQUIRE* the same amount of salts (nutes) that a plant will that is putting on 2" of height a day during its stretch (bulking up) phase.
> 
> ...


I have read you rant on this subject countless times. In this instance I was referring to the nutrient schedule in regards to the fungal colonies in the super plant tonic. My aim in asking the question was not to find information about feeding, but whether the SPT microorganisms could survive in the high salt nutrient solution suggested by fox farm.


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 31, 2009)

Guest999 said:


> I have read you rant on this subject countless times. In this instance I was referring to the nutrient schedule in regards to the fungal colonies in the super plant tonic. My aim in asking the question was not to find information about feeding, but whether the SPT microorganisms could survive in the high salt nutrient solution suggested by fox farm.


My myco survive just fine with FF nutes. Dont forget their own Big Bloom is full of microbes as well. I wrote SPT and asked them if its fine to mix SPT up with FF nutes and they said its just fine. I mentioned this in the BMO thread. Read the last two pages. Theres also a link in there to a discussion about salts/chem ferts and microbes thats worth reading. 

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/109517-blue-mountian-organics-8.html


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## Dr. VonDank (Jan 1, 2010)

Myo loves an all organic low ppm rhizosphere and yes they will benefit an organic grow with the assimilation of Phos along with the protection of the root zone against pathogens and harmful bacteria/fungi. If using myo cut back the phosphorus a little since the myo will be assimilating more to your plants. Also as far as the FF big bloom goes make a mix of 30ml/gal and add seaweed or more earthworm castings if you need more N... If you have to use the grow big then do so but keep it 3ml/gal or less. Add your myo after you have mixed and Ph'd your nutes. Myo love a veg ppm range below 700 and below 900. Myo have a sweet tooth so a little unsulpherd molasses will give them a kick plus add a little organic---cal/mag/iron---plus micros at the same time. Humic acid is a great daily food source as well.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 1, 2010)

Hi Dave, happy new year!



DaveCoulier said:


> My myco survive just fine with FF nutes.


Please don't think I'm being confrontational, but it begs the question, "how do you know they survive"? I'm using myco on alot of stuff, but I have no way of confirming if my applications (and I've used probably 160 gallons by now) are having any benefit. It's my understanding that the filaments are not visible to the human eye, so all I have to go on is blind faith and a watchful eye regarding plant growth. What I'm thinking is what I've held for so long - with a well prepared and designed soil mix, you don't need any supplements. For hydro, to grow excellent plants you only need the 16 essential elements in a_ *well balanced*_ soluble salts form that can pass thru the root's epidermal gradient. 

I guess what I'm asking of anyone lurking here, do you know of a method to confirm the progress and impact of the myco blends other than the prevailing human element that we see what we expect to see?

UB


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 1, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Hi Dave, happy new year!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can see them on the roots that poke out of the bottom of the pot, or when I upcan you see a hairy white mold on the roots(I could be wrong though??). The "mold" doesn't colonize as well as I would like. Even on the plants that were getting organic nutes only for a month are no better than the ones getting FF. Ive still got a bottle left, and may as well do a side by side on next grow if any is left. Even then, I am doubting there is enough benefit. 

I decided to do some quick reading, and it appears Ive discovered why they are slow to colonize my root system even though these plants are two months old. It takes months for them to even start developing colonies when plants are first treated. Even at two years dont expect a full colony according to this:

http://www.super-grow.biz/Myco.jsp#where

Im glad you were "confrontational" . It appears myco additives really aren't that useful for short lived plants like MJ.

I think Ill do some more looking around for stuff to read about it.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 1, 2010)

Excellent thoughts!



DaveCoulier said:


> You can see them on the roots that poke out of the bottom of the pot, or when I upcan you see a hairy white mold on the roots(I could be wrong though??). The "mold" doesn't colonize as well as I would like. Even on the plants that were getting organic nutes only for a month are no better than the ones getting FF. Ive still got a bottle left, and may as well do a side by side on next grow if any is left. Even then, I am doubting there is enough benefit.


If you could shoot me a picture I would love it! It should be easy to discern between fine root hairs and a mold like filament.



> I decided to do some quick reading, and it appears Ive discovered why they are slow to colonize my root system even though these plants are two months old. It takes months for them to even start developing colonies when plants are first treated. Even at two years dont expect a full colony according to this:
> 
> http://www.super-grow.biz/Myco.jsp#where
> 
> Im glad you were "confrontational" . It appears myco additives really aren't that useful for short lived plants like MJ.


That's exactly what I brought up either on page one or in another thread in another forum. Being that this is an annual, I don't think there is enough time for the colony to take place, to be of any real world benefit. I was told by a tech that even with perennials, it takes a while for the dormancy to expansive growth phase to take effect. IOW, when you apply it, it doesn't automatically go to work like some wish to believe.



> I think Ill do some more looking around for stuff to read about it.


Would be appreciated. Did you ever see my link on grapes? This is one of the few scientific reads on VAM: http://www.wynboer.co.za/recentarticles/200705miko.php3


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 1, 2010)

*Now here is the rub - this fungi comes dormant with a carrier and takes time to become active, work up an active colony in the root zone. Is it active by the time you harvest, or a week after application while your plants are in the juvenile stage?*


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 1, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> *Now here is the rub - this fungi comes dormant with a carrier and takes time to become active, work up an active colony in the root zone. Is it active by the time you harvest, or a week after application while your plants are in the juvenile stage?*


I probably read that and didn't take heed since I had already purchased the stuff and couldn't return it . 

Ill try and take a picture for you if possible. All ive got is a shitty camera phone, so hopefully I can get something.

I swear you mentioned that myco would perform best in a soil-less mixture in your last post or two. This was a link I found discussing myco tips in different soil layers:

http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=19780648568

It seems ecto-myco colonizes best in humus, which should already be full of microbes right? Thats a surprise to me.

Heres the best picture I could get. Its actually the only exposed root I could really find the "mold on". Real effective....


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 1, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> I probably read that and didn't take heed since I had already purchased the stuff and couldn't return it .
> 
> Ill try and take a picture for you if possible. All ive got is a shitty camera phone, so hopefully I can get something.
> 
> ...


Guess I was figuring soil-less to mean without compost. Soil-less to me would be a peat based mix with perlite. I may have misconstrued this. 



> Heres the best picture I could get. Its actually the only exposed root I could really find the "mold on". Real effective....


Thanks, but tough to see. 

After it's all said and done, I don't see any value for cannabis. If you're doing soil, then add peat moss, compost, worm castings, alfalfa meal, etc. 

Did you see this? https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/288122-few-thoughts-reducing-stretch.html

UB


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 1, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Guess I was figuring soil-less to mean without compost. Soil-less to me would be a peat based mix with perlite. I may have misconstrued this.
> 
> Thanks, but tough to see.
> 
> ...


Since were on the subject of mediums, have you ever used aged/composted pine bark fines? I started using some this grow, and have pretty much fallen in love with it. It eliminates my ability to over-water seedlings, and definitely doesn't become compacted like peat/compost(although I still use them as part of the mix).

Thanks for that new link. Im gonna check it out now, along with the grape one.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 1, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Since were on the subject of mediums, have you ever used aged/composted pine bark fines? I started using some this grow, and have pretty much fallen in love with it. It eliminates my ability to over-water seedlings, and definitely doesn't become compacted like peat/compost(although I still use them as part of the mix).
> 
> Thanks for that new link. Im gonna check it out now, along with the grape one.


Brick Top used pine fines alot. I think redwood or fir would be better, used to use it for orchids. You really need to increase the N in order to feed the N feeding bacteria which will be breaking down the bark, like a 30-10-10. It's pretty hard to beat horse manure.


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 1, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Brick Top used pine fines alot. I think redwood or fir would be better, used to use it for orchids. You really need to increase the N in order to feed the N feeding bacteria which will be breaking down the bark, like a 30-10-10. It's pretty hard to beat horse manure.


From what Ive read, its the uncomposted pine bark that really becomes a problem, but partially composted it shouldnt be a big issue, but it is probably prudent to up the nitrogen like you said.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 1, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> From what Ive read, its the uncomposted pine bark that really becomes a problem, but partially composted it shouldnt be a big issue, but it is probably prudent to up the nitrogen like you said.


If it's composted, I'd go for it. I have a problem with over maintenance regarding watering. I do the opposite of most folks, I tighten up the mix so I don't have to water as often. If you have a robust healthy growing plant it's almost impossible to have a root rot issue.


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## doogleef (Jan 13, 2010)

Guest999 said:


> I use the cal-mag to supplement of course, my leaf tips were looking bad and the leaves were generally poor looking before i started the cal-mag.
> 
> .


I hear this A LOT.  A quick look at the cal-mag label answers why you saw an increase in leaf health. It's 2-0-0. Its the nitrogen boost you were needing. 

http://www.americanagritech.com/supplements/cal-mag



Uncle Ben said:


> After it's all said and done, I don't see any value for cannabis. If you're doing soil, then add peat moss, compost, worm castings, alfalfa meal, etc.


Thanks UB, jberry, Dave, and all the other good posters on this thread. Great info and another paradigm cracking conclusion. Rep+ all around. 

Rock on!


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## wyteboi (Jan 13, 2010)

Thanks for all the very usefull info UB an everyone! Very nice thread!!!! I just would like to know how much worm castings to add to promix ? also it seems to be cheaper to buy a premade mix rather then mix your own dirt? castings are expensive if you do not make them yourself an the same with compost. (which i will be making my own compost and castings soon) but until then?
Thanks



I will be gettin me a scope to watch those lil fucks , so i can really tell if the additive is doing its job.
wb


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## formlessqarrior (Feb 11, 2010)

uncle ben u the man, just curious as to what medium you use and if you add fungi bact to it, i been using basement mix by royal something and got some of plant success and things are looking great. r u soil or coco, how much perlite do u use. also, when using that 1.3.2 what is the max u use during flowering, was thinking going next time with petes or jacks whatever it was called. just curious for how u have gotten r done. things looking great on my end living and learning got no cam tho lol. anyway was just curious if u seen plant success and if u would use it , maybe mix it in soil beforehand, also, do you think topping creates better meristems or should i fim? my last plants were fimed and the meristems are huge idk just rant back to me lol


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## Wetdog (Feb 11, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> You can see them on the roots that poke out of the bottom of the pot, or when I upcan you see a hairy white mold on the roots(I could be wrong though??). The "mold" doesn't colonize as well as I would like. Even on the plants that were getting organic nutes only for a month are no better than the ones getting FF. Ive still got a bottle left, and may as well do a side by side on next grow if any is left. Even then, I am doubting there is enough benefit.
> 
> I decided to do some quick reading, and it appears Ive discovered why they are slow to colonize my root system even though these plants are two months old. It takes months for them to even start developing colonies when plants are first treated. Even at two years dont expect a full colony according to this:
> 
> ...


Well, yes and no.

From what I've noticed, yes mj is too short lived for the most part. It does seem to help with mother plants that are kept around for longer periods of time.

If you're a gardener, alliums (Onions,shallots,garlic) really benefit and I have noticed a difference there. The 9 month growing season might help also.

I get mine from Fungi Perfect, www.fungi.com and besides the myco, there is also beneficial bacteria in there. It is just pure spore mass and 1oz will make 12 gallons of solution. Cost a grand total of $5.95 for 1oz and the shipping is ~$1.50. So, figure $8 and another $2 for some molasses to wake it up. A bit cheaper than anything I've seen with a pretty label.

Anyway, I HAVE noticed a difference, but I think it's due more to some of the 19 different bacteria's that's in there than the mycos, but something seems to be working.

Wet


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 11, 2010)

Wetdog said:


> Well, yes and no.
> 
> From what I've noticed, yes mj is too short lived for the most part. It does seem to help with mother plants that are kept around for longer periods of time.
> 
> ...


If there is a difference, I doubt its from the myco like you said as well. 

Myco perform best in nutrient poor soil outdoors. They help uptake water and nutrients, but that is two things that should never be a problem for indoor gardening. As long as we maintain a healthy root system with sufficient moisture in the soil, so that nutrients can be uptaken, then we should be good to go. That means not waiting until the soil is bone-dry before watering like some dummies think


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## wyteboi (Feb 12, 2010)

I am not against the shit at all but i did see professor or dr. David Douds try to come up with a way to multiply and breed the shit in a nice easy economical way. And since the mycorrhizae needs live roots to breed and multiply , he tried to grow innoculated grass in compost , and the myco died off pretty quick because of how "rich" the soil was and the grass did not need the myco's help.
that dont mean my dirt is that healthy but it does mean its my fault if it isnt.

wb


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 12, 2010)

This fungi is found naturally in soils unless they are sterilized with something like heat or Vapam.


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## i81two (Feb 13, 2010)

Anybody use GH's Culture M ? I just started a week ago.


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## Jerry Garcia (Feb 14, 2010)

UB,

I picked up some mycorrhizae granules the other day. It has 8 different types of endo and ecto mycorrhizae and it lists each propagules/gram.

12510 propagules/gram--Pisolithus tinctorius 
317 propagules/gram--Rhizopogon rubescens
317 propagules/gram--Rhizopogon fulvigleba
317 propagules/gram--Rhizopogon villesuius
317 propagules/gram--Rhizopogon subcarelescens
2.46 propagules/gram--Glomus intraradices
2.46 propagules/gram--Glomus aggregatum
2.46 propagules/gram--Glomus mossaea

The manufacturer is HydroOrganics Products (same people who make the Rainbow Mix that was discussed at some point in this thread I think) and the stuff is called Rooter's Mycorrhizae.

Here's a link

http://www.planetnatural.com/site/mycorrhizae.html

Thought it looked promising and was only $13 at my hydro store so if it doesn't work I'm not out that much...


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## aeviaanah (Feb 14, 2010)

I use age old grow mycorrhizae. i read in urban garden magazine today that synthetic nutrients will not harm mycorrhizal fungi.


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 15, 2010)

UB, if you check out this video, around 35 seconds onwards, you will see what I previously thought were Myco fungi. So according to the video, its just root hairs. My question is, why do not all of my roots develop these root hairs?

Thanks.


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## Jerry Garcia (Feb 15, 2010)

Here is a quote from the link below regarding synthetic phosphate fertilizers and this product...

*http://www.hydro-organics.com/ee_pc/EEPC20.html
*
*ROOTERS MYCORRHIZAE*
Contains a multitude of ecto/endo mycorrhizae selected to perform in a variety of environments to enhance the growth and vigor of the majority of plants. Can be applied to seed beds, rooting media, blended into potting soils, or introduced at planting. Apply during installation or aerification of turf. Complete directions on label. *Do not apply in conjunction with synthetic forms of phosphate fertilizers.* *Organic fertilizers will enhance microbial activity and development of mycorrhizae.*


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## Bic (Feb 15, 2010)

They act like root hairs or 'fuzz' but are alot smaller creating a larger root surface area, which is a very good thing.

More roots = more root surface however plant cells i.e. root hairs cant replicate fungi which are much smaller.

Go look at a fractional pattern thats kinda what your root systems like and these fungi are alot smaller so you have a larger surface area on the same root length.

Ok its good thing.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2010)

Jerry Garcia said:


> UB,
> 
> I picked up some mycorrhizae granules the other day. It has 8 different types of endo and ecto mycorrhizae and it lists each propagules/gram.
> 
> ...


Can't hurt!



DaveCoulier said:


> UB, if you check out this video, around 35 seconds onwards, you will see what I previously thought were Myco fungi. So according to the video, its just root hairs. My question is, why do not all of my roots develop these root hairs?
> 
> Thanks.


Root hairs are always in the process of dieing and being generated. Perhaps you're looking in the wrong places? 

Speaking of phosphates you really need to go slow with them regarding the myco colony. I asked Dr. Linda about her aversion to using high amounts of phosphates relative to the myco population. She explained to me that the plant exudes acids and carbos via the roots and when too much P is present at the roots it shuts down this output and consequently the synergistic process between plant roots and the fungi. These fungi are harvesters of P for the plant. If you hit your plants too hard with P, your plants will still get their P needs taking care of, just in a different mode. Call her up for clarification, but this is what I got out of our conversation. A technician at my myco source said the same thing - you don't need to exclude P in your synthetic plant foods, just don't go crazy with it.


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## Atomizer (Feb 15, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> UB, if you check out this video, around 35 seconds onwards, you will see what I previously thought were Myco fungi. So according to the video, its just root hairs. My question is, why do not all of my roots develop these root hairs?
> 
> Thanks.


They are wet. Root hair production is greatest with a high air/water ratio. 
As an example, roots growing into voids (worm holes etc) in soil will produce abundant root hair growth on the root section in the void.


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## Wetdog (Feb 15, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> This fungi is found naturally in soils unless they are sterilized with something like heat or Vapam.


True, but for sure not in my peat based soil less mix.

Wet


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 18, 2010)

_Why does the myth of phosphorus-induced root stimulation persist? The answer probably lies in the effect phosphorus fertilizers have on mycorrhizal relationships. When plant roots are in low phosphorus environments, they exude organic acids from their root tips. These acids allow mycorrhizal fungi to penetrate the roots and form the networks that assist plant roots in taking up water and nutrients.

Mycorrhizae are particularly adept at extracting phosphorus from the soil. If phosphorus levels are too high, however, the roots do not exude the organic acids and mycorrhizal connections do not form. This forces the plant to put more resources into root growth to compensate for the lack of mycorrhizae. So in a sense phosphorus will increase root growth &#8211; but at an added cost to the plant. The resources expended by the plant in growing additional roots to take the place of mycorrhizae are not available for other plant needs.

Shrub and tree species that are mycorrhizae-dependent have a difficult time surviving in soils where mycorrhizae cannot develop. In particular, seedlings and newly transplanted materials are less efficient in absorbing water and minerals from the soil and are more likely to suffer transplant shock than plants where mycorrhizae are present. Adding mycorrhizal spores to soils where phosphorus is too high is ineffective &#8211; the spores will remain dormant.

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Bonemeal.pdf
_


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## dakin3d (Feb 18, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> _
> http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Bonemeal.pdf
> _


Whats up, UB? Thank you for posting this latest link, it is much appreciated. I'm always interested in hearing more on this topic.

Switching gears a bit... I was interested, so I went to Dr. C-Scott's website and was checking out the blog area for professors: https://sharepoint.cahnrs.wsu.edu/blogs/urbanhort/archive/2010/02/17/international-ag-labs-who-are-they-and-what-do-they-do.aspx#postComments

I noticed that the only 2 comments on this post were from individuals stating their experiences in researching the said topic. They both comment on the amount of information on molasses. I thought it was interesting that the inclination I interpreted from both of their opinions was that of utter suspicion: 

_'2. What's with the molasses? Is this company connected with Jerry Baker?  Molasses (or treacle, as they have it listed on another product) is primarily sugars and only 2% minerals. What good is it going to do other than making the ants, bees and a few other insects happy?' _ 

_'Im fascinated by the amount of stuff about molasses Im finding  an awful lot of it seems to be anecdotal/folksy. (My grandpa had a tablespoon every day and lived to be 90 and healthy! Must be great for the garden, too.)'_

They act as if they've never heard of such a thing!

Im interested, UB, if you are familiar w/ azotobacter as a beneficial, and what the benefits are of its presence? Thanks.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 18, 2010)

dakin3d said:


> Whats up, UB? Thank you for posting this latest link, it is much appreciated. I'm always interested in hearing more on this topic.
> 
> Switching gears a bit... I was interested, so I went to Dr. C-Scott's website and was checking out the blog area for professors: https://sharepoint.cahnrs.wsu.edu/blogs/urbanhort/archive/2010/02/17/international-ag-labs-who-are-they-and-what-do-they-do.aspx#postComments
> 
> ...


Howdy, great info. Molasses is more of the anecdotal folksy stuff. Not familiar with that bacteria.


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## grnTOMATOS (Feb 25, 2010)

Hey Jerry Garcia-
Why would you want ecto mycorrhizae for MJ cultivation?! Ecto mycorrhizae only associate with conifers and hardwood trees, what place does it have in this industry. Just goes to show the snake oils that are out there.

You need pure endo mycorrhizae, without all the masking agents like humic and fertilizer (hum hum myco apply, plant success, and great white).

You may want to try Myco Max by humboldt nutes or Mykos by xtreme gardening. Its a new product but they are the oldest mycorrhizae cultivators in the nation. Their spore counts are 100 X higher than mycorrhizal applications and they even have pedigrees DNA proving the strains in their products. You don't have to make believe that your getting results from the fungus and not the ferts/humic lol! Cant believe I used to get swindled by Dr Spike up in Oregon!

If your running DWC or Aeroponics, definitely get the Mykos M-Drops, shits hot. They sell their endo for $6.75/ lb and its been used to break the last 4 world records for giant veggie growth, 5 country records, and 12 state records. They had a school teacher grow a 1,725 lb pumpkin this last year using just their mykos, azos, and CO2. 

check their website if want to know more....recommend the CO2 --- just sold my burner on craigslist because now that i have their topical foliar feed CO2, I no longer need the burner, its a waste of money.


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## riddleme (Feb 25, 2010)

grnTOMATOS said:


> Hey Jerry Garcia-
> Why would you want ecto mycorrhizae for MJ cultivation?! Ecto mycorrhizae only associate with conifers and hardwood trees, what place does it have in this industry. Just goes to show the snake oils that are out there.
> 
> You need pure endo mycorrhizae, without all the masking agents like humic and fertilizer (hum hum myco apply, plant success, and great white).
> ...


How about sharing a link ???


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## wyteboi (Feb 26, 2010)

looks like tomato came off a lil harsh. 
i have read plenty that the ecto only forms a relationship with 1 or 2% of the plants in the world. So there is proly no need for it and if your soil is good enough , you wont need any but i see no reason not to add a lil (endo) to the dirt or roots, just incase. 
As far as the myco maxx goes, i didnt really pay attention to the count compared to others, i'll do that now.... I did see where the pumpkin record was broke , but thats their sales pitch.
heres the website .....i think. 
http://www.mycorrhizae.com/item.php?pid=237&cid=12


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## RogueReefer (Feb 26, 2010)

Has anyone tried Rick's Monster Grow Mix. It has mycorrhizae in it. just got some and put it on our plants at our legal grow. We will see how it goes, lol.


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## grnTOMATOS (Feb 26, 2010)

riddleme said:


> How about sharing a link ???





riddleme said:


> How about sharing a link ???


Reforest.com, gardenfuels.com, great pumpkin commonwealth.com, xpertgardener.com, southeastern-organics.com, greenthumborganix.com, innovativegrowingsolutions.com, californiahydroponicsllc.com, greenjointventures.info/, grasscity.com. tomatoville.com, ect

That was just what comes up when you google mykos mycorrhizae and xtreme gardening.

Here's a link to the company story on their website:

www.Reforest.com/company  

(sounds like they're on top of their game)


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## grnTOMATOS (Feb 26, 2010)

wyteboi said:


> looks like tomato came off a lil harsh.
> i have read plenty that the ecto only forms a relationship with 1 or 2% of the plants in the world. So there is proly no need for it and if your soil is good enough , you wont need any but i see no reason not to add a lil (endo) to the dirt or roots, just incase.
> As far as the myco maxx goes, i didnt really pay attention to the count compared to others, i'll do that now.... I did see where the pumpkin record was broke , but thats their sales pitch.
> heres the website .....i think.
> http://www.mycorrhizae.com/item.php?pid=237&cid=12


The link was for myco apply, its RTI that holds all the world records
www.Reforest.com

How is breaking 4 world-records a sales pitch, I thought that was kind of the results, not the pitch for the product. Are there any other mycorrhizae sources breaking world records? Please let me know, this could be commonplace I guess? or is it unique to RTI?


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## grnTOMATOS (Feb 26, 2010)

riddleme said:


> How about sharing a link ???


www.Reforest.com/company


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## grnTOMATOS (Feb 26, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> First off, for those of you who have followed my rants over the years, you know how much I disdain "snake oils" aka "rocket fuels" and the shysters that push them. I do keep an open mind and will take the plunge from time to time but so far I feel I've wasted my money. IOW, if it sounds too good to be true, then it usually is. I consider most of the organic market push to be a big racket based on idealogical fervor and greed. I attended a professional workshop on the use of non-conventional soil additives where such products were applied in field studies with all kinds of crops throughout the U.S. and all products tested (about 10) were found to have no beneficial affect on crop production. Having said that, this raises the question, when can some of these "snake oils" be of benefit to the cannabis gardener? Which brings me to my latest experiment.......
> 
> I recently applied 30 gallons of a MycoApply soluble product to alot of plant material, not cannabis, but all the same as I applied it to very similiar plants regarding their botanical makeup, growth habits, etc. I will be able to judge the results by the end of this growing season as a control group was set aside with no treatment.
> 
> ...


You may be surprised, but mycorrhizae cannot live in a liquid setting without constant aeration (ie air stones). If you bought a liquid that said it was containing "live" mycorrhizae, then you fell for another snake oil scheme. 

You may want to look for another product which is soluble but not stored in a liquid form (where it drowns the aerobic fungi spores). Go with granular for highest spore count or soluble powders you mix before applying. 
Good luck


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 27, 2010)

grnTOMATOS said:


> You may be surprised, but mycorrhizae cannot live in a liquid setting without constant aeration (ie air stones). If you bought a liquid that said it was containing "live" mycorrhizae, then you fell for another snake oil scheme.


It's a dry powder. You don't think I'd be buying this stuff 30 gallons at a time?  Rate for the soluble powder is 1 tsp/gallon or 1 lb. per 200 gallons of water.

BTW, just because someone breaks a world record doesn't mean it was due to any one product or thing. Could have been good care, exceptional genetics, perfect clime, etc.

If you have a decent potting mix, one with some compost, then you don't need to be wasting your time on myco products. 

UB


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## infoseekr (Mar 2, 2010)

I want to know a couple things about the inoculates. I have great white and use it in a flood hydro system with silica rocks. 
This pumpkin pro seems like a great bargain.
is its selection of organisms, specific to pumpkins? or is it similar, the same, close to what might be used for cannabis, or what great white uses? Can the Pumpkin pro be used in hydro re-circ systems? is anyone using it now, what are results? Do you have to feed the organisms with a carbohydrate? like molassas or something? if so how much per gallon of H2O?

I only saw one reply button at bottom of page so I hope everyone in thread gets copy of this. 


what the hell is a trackback?


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## infoseekr (Mar 2, 2010)

also, a bit off subject. the two of you are complaining about snake oil, and grannies sunshine [piss in the bottle]. suggesting these companies could slap a 50 dollar price on shit and sell it to you.

that without regulation [government intervention into free market] we will always get screwed. Being a student of Economics [Ludwig Von Mises, Murray Rothbard persuasion] I suspect your fears are unfounded BS. pardon my french. These companies put their name, image, reputation and CAPITAL ASSETS on the line with every claim they make. if product fails or falls short they will fail. and no one invests CAPITAL ASSETS, run a manufacturing, distribution and employs workers to fail, the intent is to win, make profit, and if profit is consumed by sending out freebees, and fixing some scam they tried to pull over, then they lose and this occurs to me to be big Risk, and unlikely any serious company with street credit, and a reputation would even attempt. High price comes from lack of competition and scarcity of said product, as the masses dont think to research and find a bargain like , perhaps pumpkin pro. as word gets out that, perhaps pumpkin pro is usable and cheap then instantly we have competition, and a surplus on the market driving prices down. im sure you guys can think of another analogy, say the bud market.

Also what seems curious to me about those who expect government fixes [regulation, welfare, subsidies etc] that the vary ideas, and conversation surounding such topics are often the genesis or seeds of perhaps a successful capitalistic free market enterprise. The two of you seem to have stumbled onto a void in said Market, the consumer and producer would both benefit from you two creating a free market testing and authenticaing service, doing trial runs on products and creating a standard for said products. sort of like a UL Listing... go for it I think you'd do well.and it would be of great service to the entire industry.
send me my 20% when your all set up and running. contact me through this site.

good luck
Best Regards
Infoseekr


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## infoseekr (Mar 2, 2010)

also, a bit off subject. the two of you are complaining about snake oil, and grannies sunshine [piss in the bottle]. suggesting these companies could slap a 50 dollar price on shit and sell it to you.

that without regulation [government intervention into free market] we will always get screwed. Being a student of Economics [Ludwig Von Mises, Murray Rothbard persuasion] I suspect your fears are unfounded BS. pardon my french. These companies put their name, image, reputation and CAPITAL ASSETS on the line with every claim they make. if product fails or falls short they will fail. and no one invests CAPITAL ASSETS, run a manufacturing, distribution and employs workers to fail, the intent is to win, make profit, and if profit is consumed by sending out freebees, and fixing some scam they tried to pull over, then they lose and this occurs to me to be big Risk, and unlikely any serious company with street credit, and a reputation would even attempt. High price comes from lack of competition and scarcity of said product, as the masses dont think to research and find a bargain like , perhaps pumpkin pro. as word gets out that, perhaps pumpkin pro is usable and cheap then instantly we have competition, and a surplus on the market driving prices down. im sure you guys can think of another analogy, say the bud market.

Also what seems curious to me about those who expect government fixes [regulation, welfare, subsidies etc] that the vary ideas, and conversation surounding such topics are often the genesis or seeds of perhaps a successful capitalistic free market enterprise. The two of you seem to have stumbled onto a void in said Market, the consumer and producer would both benefit from you two creating a free market testing and authenticaing service, doing trial runs on products and creating a standard for said products. sort of like a UL Listing... go for it I think you'd do well.and it would be of great service to the entire industry.
send me my 20% when your all set up and running. contact me through this site.

good luck
Best Regards
Infoseekr


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## infoseekr (Mar 2, 2010)

do you have to feed the mycorrhizal? ive heard you've gotta put molasses in reservoir , that the Myco eat the carbohydrates?


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## Dr. VonDank (Mar 3, 2010)

I like to make a slurry in a cup or container larger than the root ball then dip in and soak a min before transplant. Myo products need to be applied within a half inch of roots(slurry works great). I agree with UB about the liquid forms(stay away) You can mix your dry powder or granules in your rez or stock tank just before you feed. Great White has been improved with some enzymes as well. They also sell the plant success and a new seaweed/humic product to feed myos and improve chealition of nutrients in the rhizosphere. Humboldt County Nutrients has a product called "White Widow" that has double the propogls per gram of any other product on the market as of current.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 3, 2010)

Dr. VonDank said:


> I like to make a slurry in a cup or container larger than the root ball then dip in and soak a min before transplant. Myo products need to be applied within a half inch of roots(slurry works great). I agree with UB about the liquid forms(stay away) You can mix your dry powder or granules in your rez or stock tank just before you feed. Great White has been improved with some enzymes as well. They also sell the plant success and a new seaweed/humic product to feed myos and improve chealition of nutrients in the rhizosphere. Humboldt County Nutrients has a product called "White Widow" that has double the propogls per gram of any other product on the market as of current.


The plant feeds the fungi, it's a symbiotic relationship. Regarding enzymes, amino acids all the other hype, the customer doesn't know if he's really getting anything (what non-partisan lab has analysed the contents, supplements are not regulated) and if is anything IS added, what is the required amount to be effective and what is the direct impact? Is there is any real world value in adding this stuff or is a feel-good thing? 

99% of buyers are buying on blind faith or what someone repeated said by someone else, anecdotal this and that....

I had a Dr. of Horticulture tell me I was wasting my time and money adding myco products to my soil. In fact, he said I could actually be doing harm to the ones already present. Had another expert say that when you add some of these microbial/myco products, the native ones "just eat 'em."

UB


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## wyteboi (Mar 3, 2010)

infoseekr said:


> also, a bit off subject. the two of you are complaining about snake oil, and grannies sunshine [piss in the bottle]. suggesting these companies could slap a 50 dollar price on shit and sell it to you.


Would be ALOT easier then you think 



infoseekr said:


> I suspect your fears are unfounded BS.


What "fears" ? Shit works , and works good , just not worth the money. 



infoseekr said:


> These companies put their name, image, reputation and CAPITAL ASSETS on the line with every claim they make. if product fails or falls short they will fail.


*OR* they change the name of the product , add some more colors to the bottle, name it after a transformer , then continue on with the "snake oils" ..........who cares about the folks that already spent a bunch a money on a brand new product that "failed". Will the corp let you trade it in for the "NEW/IMPROVED VERSION"? 
IS this whole site politicians? 


infoseekr said:


> send me my 20% when you guys get all set up


 You have to EARN your %. That school should have tought you that much.


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## forushani (Mar 3, 2010)

Hi guys
I am new here but I played with Mycrrhizae and it works.

I have some that I imported from Uk and am willing to share.


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## infoseekr (Mar 3, 2010)

Im not trying to teach anyone, everyone is free to think as they wish. I nutshelled thousands of pages of economic theory into a forum comment. I left out a couple things, to say the least. Adam Smith spoke of an invisible hand in the market. hes referring to the natural checks and balances in a FREE MARKET [minus regulation]. One user above gave me the finger??? WTF? I intend to insult no one.

Ultimately the CONSUMER too has a responsibility to know what they are purchasing, This very forum, this very topic, this very conversation is an example of Human Action, Reasonable intellect, people wanting to know what they're buying. wanting to know effectiveness. there are thousand of independent groups that test, approve, and apply their seal to products and services in the market. snake oils are no different. my original comment was provoked by another member wishing worshipful government would regulate. Government has nothing except what it steal, taxation. Also regulation was first realized in the beggining of the progressive era [1880-1920] By the leaders of Big Business NOT the reformers. These big business leaders USED GOV. to regulate their Competition [crushing it] ensuring their monopoly, so they could raise prices and control scarcity. In addition, these actions Diminished Private Property Law, making them unresponsible for dumping toxins, or polluting my yard. Just prior to this Courts upheld private property, and I a single citizen, could get a court Injunction forcing polluter to STOP, and also be rewarded fines paid to me by polluter. After the1880's [progressive era] Big Business polluters could pollute anywhere within a range they defined, in addition to now being able to charge what ever they want, and handicap any moral businessman from competing as he can not compete unless he too joins into such activity. These are Moral Hazards. One can not imagine, wishful thinking of what would be best [desire for regulation] We must look at the moral hazards and allow the free market to function.
AGAIN Consumers have a responsibility in the market to, anyone has the right to sell snake oil if said consumer is blind to effectiveness. 
NOW TO THE MYCO ISSUE. this very conversation is an example of Adam Smiths invisible hand. as time goes by people in the know with experience weed out the snake oils via, this forum and other formats. NO ONE forced anyone to buy MYCOS. It was voluntary. all Exchanges are Voluntary to both parties. All established companies operating in a free market are dependant on customer satisfaction, the moment their customers start to Question, and lose confidence, they lose the market share and they FAIL.

Ill stop here. I doubt I deserve any flak from the good people in this forum, Im not scolding anyone, Just be aware ASKING/EXPECTING anything from Government is in form Socialistic and/or Fascist. NOT American Freedom. the Free Market is ultimate Democracy. the consumer voting with Dollars.


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## Jerry Garcia (Mar 4, 2010)

infoseekr said:


> Im not trying to teach anyone, everyone is free to think as they wish. I nutshelled thousands of pages of economic theory into a forum comment. I left out a couple things, to say the least. Adam Smith spoke of an invisible hand in the market. hes referring to the natural checks and balances in a FREE MARKET [minus regulation]. One user above gave me the finger??? WTF? I intend to insult no one.
> 
> Ultimately the CONSUMER too has a responsibility to know what they are purchasing, This very forum, this very topic, this very conversation is an example of Human Action, Reasonable intellect, people wanting to know what they're buying. wanting to know effectiveness. there are thousand of independent groups that test, approve, and apply their seal to products and services in the market. snake oils are no different. my original comment was provoked by another member wishing worshipful government would regulate. Government has nothing except what it steal, taxation. Also regulation was first realized in the beggining of the progressive era [1880-1920] By the leaders of Big Business NOT the reformers. These big business leaders USED GOV. to regulate their Competition [crushing it] ensuring their monopoly, so they could raise prices and control scarcity. In addition, these actions Diminished Private Property Law, making them unresponsible for dumping toxins, or polluting my yard. Just prior to this Courts upheld private property, and I a single citizen, could get a court Injunction forcing polluter to STOP, and also be rewarded fines paid to me by polluter. After the1880's [progressive era] Big Business polluters could pollute anywhere within a range they defined, in addition to now being able to charge what ever they want, and handicap any moral businessman from competing as he can not compete unless he too joins into such activity. These are Moral Hazards. One can not imagine, wishful thinking of what would be best [desire for regulation] We must look at the moral hazards and allow the free market to function.
> AGAIN Consumers have a responsibility in the market to, anyone has the right to sell snake oil if said consumer is blind to effectiveness.
> ...


Right, an unregulated free market has worked so freaking well hasn't it? There's been virtually no regulation in the US healthcare industry...they even have exemption against antitrust LAWS. And how have they rewarded the consumer? By jacking up rates for no reason (see: Blue Cross California 39% increase for NO REASON), dropping people who get seriously ill, and denying people coverage if they have a PRE-EXISTING CONDITION. 

Life is a pre-existing condition.

The problem with your above argument is that there is no such thing as a "Moral Businessman." It's an oxymoron by definition. A business has one priority...to make money. And they will do anything to make more. Morality involves doing the "right" thing for society as a whole...not for your business or your books. There can be no consumer responsibility without business responsibility, which time has proven again and again to be non-existent (see: the US Banking Industry over the past 20 years).

Anyway, I started using some of my Hydroorgancis Mycorrhizae a couple weeks ago, mixed into my soilless mix...and I can already tell a marked difference. I transplanted some recently rooted clones into the mix, and the size of the leaves on all 3 plants I tested it on are mammoth. I'm not sure if growth is any faster thus far, but it is noticeably stronger.

I'm going to do a side by side comparison using two clones from the same plant...I will post pictures when it happens. It will probably be my trainwreck...


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## Jerry Garcia (Mar 4, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> I had a Dr. of Horticulture tell me I was wasting my time and money adding myco products to my soil. In fact, he said I could actually be doing harm to the ones already present. Had another expert say that when you add some of these microbial/myco products, the native ones "just eat 'em."
> 
> UB


myco wars!


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## wyteboi (Mar 4, 2010)

Sorry infoseek , i dont think i understood your first comment.(still dont) I stick my foot in my mouth alot ...... no big deal. i'll take the finger back........i think


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## wyteboi (Mar 4, 2010)

Jerry Garcia said:


> The problem with your above argument is that there is no such thing as a "Moral Businessman."


Hell maybe thats why im in such bad condition. i try my best to be a businessman with morals. i never make money. 
i do make plenty of friends though (associates)..............


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## wyteboi (Mar 4, 2010)

Jerry Garcia said:


> Anyway, I started using some of my Hydroorgancis Mycorrhizae a couple weeks ago, mixed into my soilless mix...and I can already tell a marked difference. I transplanted some recently rooted clones into the mix, and the size of the leaves on all 3 plants I tested it on are mammoth. I'm not sure if growth is any faster thus far, but it is noticeably stronger.
> 
> I'm going to do a side by side comparison using two clones from the same plant...I will post pictures when it happens. It will probably be my trainwreck...


So your usin rooters jerry? I got that too cause at the time (in the dro store ) it was the cheapest myco they had. 
I mix a lil in the pot , but mainly i dump a lil on the roots when upcannin. My test are the opposite then "controlled" so i cant really tell. 
What i can tell is the HUGE difference in roots when i upcan. I really think the big difference came from the new dirt though.

I'll leave the myco out on a few peat balls , then see what they look like when i upcan from the cup.............


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## infoseekr (Mar 4, 2010)

Your wrong, moral businessmen can not exist in a regulated market, I suggest you back up to my prior comment which details the progressive era. and just who is responsible for the regulation we have.
Also if one wanted to grow cannabis to sell, this is a market, evidence here now in this forum are likely businessmen looking for quality MYCO to get bigger better yeilds onto market. these likely business men also search out genetic/seeds of the highest quality, and improve their grow chambers to ensure quality, and all of this is motivated by likely profits. so likely businessman has customer satisfaction in mind. anyway I hope to STOP this thread on economics. I meant not to ruffle the leftist in forum, but our very activity is regulated, one can not get certain products from holland, we can not sell said product at farmers market. and there are those not so moral businessmen who want these regulations as they keep prices high, these individuals know that once cannabis is LAWFUL and unregulated and taxed that scarcity would diminish and prices would drop... cutting into said businessman profits, and devaluing his production facility. So LEADERS in the cannabis market might vote against legalization. So even in said market a moral cannabis producer could not compete with those who want the government regulation... he can not take risks, to produce and sell at cut rate prices as he will eventually fail.... If it were lawful we'd have a different market for the better, and ethically/morally right. FREEDOM PEOPLE! We too are the private sector, and private property rights are superior to state statutes and legislation.
Human Action, reason, intellect. all trade on said market [free] is voluntary, I want said plant, you want said dollar... we both benefit.


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## infoseekr (Mar 4, 2010)

SOrry for the economics Ranting, I want to return to the MYCO threads. Ill bite my tongue, if you bite yours.... LOL... Friends?


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## infoseekr (Mar 4, 2010)

Id offer this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpmqy9tC4uI to anyone interested in the economics freedom issue. Health care comes up around 14 min in. but dont miss the whole video as much context is needed.


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## Jerry Garcia (Mar 4, 2010)

wyteboi said:


> So your usin rooters jerry? I got that too cause at the time (in the dro store ) it was the cheapest myco they had.
> I mix a lil in the pot , but mainly i dump a lil on the roots when upcannin. My test are the opposite then "controlled" so i cant really tell.
> What i can tell is the HUGE difference in roots when i upcan. I really think the big difference came from the new dirt though.
> 
> I'll leave the myco out on a few peat balls , then see what they look like when i upcan from the cup.............


Yeah the granular stuff...I think it's called Rooters...I mix up a fresh batch of soil(less) mix every time I transplant, and this last time I threw some of the rooters stuff.

It's way cheap for as much as you get (only use 1 or 2 tbsp per gallon of soil) at around $13. I figured it's a small investment in the event it has no effect...

Glad to hear someone else has used it and likes it. I'll try and do a solid controlled experiment with it on my next round of clones. Early indications are positive though on my test crop...


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## Jerry Garcia (Mar 4, 2010)

infoseekr said:


> SOrry for the economics Ranting, I want to return to the MYCO threads. Ill bite my tongue, if you bite yours.... LOL... Friends?


Everyone is entitled their opinions. This is an inappropriate place to take this conversation any farther however, so we can agree to disagree at the moment.

Thread=unjacked.


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## infoseekr (Mar 5, 2010)

Besides a Myco product to create the rooting symbiosis. What Products Does the forum Like for Root stimulants. for instance, Canna Rhizotonic, House and Garden Root Excellurator, Root 66, B1 thrive products??? Enzyme products? Im using House and gardens line except the root excell as its pricy, I have used it and I know a few ml in 25 gal is all you need. compared to root 66 one needs almost 400ml in 25gal. Also is there a generic, agriculture or store brand that works ???


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## Shrubs First (Mar 6, 2010)

Rhizotonic is great, Humboldt Roots is a great stimulant as well.

I also use a lot of Hygrozyme to keep them clean.


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## grnTOMATOS (Mar 8, 2010)

Shrubs First said:


> Rhizotonic is great, Humboldt Roots is a great stimulant as well.
> 
> I also use a lot of Hygrozyme to keep them clean.



I use Mykos mycorrhizae. Its only $14.99 for 2.2 lbs and the company that makes it is the nation's oldest grower of myco. I've tried a number of products that were considerably more expensive, but this is the one that delivered.

their site is reforest.com

also worth noting that this product is the pure goods (all fungus and no ferts/humic -- ie things that can burn your plant in combo with the prods you're already using) -- only need 1-3 tblspn per plant to get fat inoculation


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## Shrubs First (Mar 8, 2010)

grnTOMATOS said:


> I use Mykos mycorrhizae. Its only $14.99 for 2.2 lbs and the company that makes it is the nation's oldest grower of myco. I've tried a number of products that were considerably more expensive, but this is the one that delivered.
> 
> their site is reforest.com
> 
> also worth noting that this product is the pure goods (all fungus and no ferts/humic -- ie things that can burn your plant in combo with the prods you're already using) -- only need 1-3 tblspn per plant to get fat inoculation


Thats a product for a different purpose. Rhizotonic is marine algae and similar to 
the humboldt roots, the humboldt roots has a vitamin package as well as mycorrhizal
spores. But both products are used as a root stimulant whereas you are referring
to an innoculation product. For that purpose i use Great White Premium Mycorrhizae
with great results.


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## infoseekr (Mar 9, 2010)

http://www.usemyke.com/mycorise/index.htm

Is this the product grnTomatoes is refering to?
I dont think it would colonize our plant of choice roots. what does forum think? 
the reforest link spoke of pumpkin pro.not usable in hydro systems. Great White is what works.


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## infoseekr (Mar 9, 2010)

I also put a sock stuffed with coco fiber into my reservoir so myco have place to go and dont get lost during reservoir changes. I reapply said sock to new reservior ... this was suggested to me By neil of FoxFarm Nutrients.... same conversation was first time I ever heard of Great White and Neil spoke highly of it. he outlined this sock method as an attempt to not dump them ALL down the drain during res change. What does Forum think?


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## doogleef (Mar 9, 2010)

Most of us have come to the conclusion that you are wasting your money.


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## mookie brown (Mar 9, 2010)

Anyone here use Blue Mountain Organics "super plant tonic" ? It has mycorrhizal fungi in it. http://www.angelfire.com/ar2/tts/bmospt.html I do use their grow it green & flower power but just want to know if I add super plant tonic to my feeding schedule if it's going to pay dividends. So far so good with the products I've bought from them for soil grows.


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## wyteboi (Mar 11, 2010)

I use super plant tonic and its decent shit ..... if your using BMO i would definatly get it. The only prob with using SPT as a mycorrhizae product is that i have never seen a liquid myco. I dont see how they can keep the myco alive in the bottle. Plus can anyone else see whats wrong with thhis statement? :
"Endo and Ecto Bacteria protect your plants roots and break down insoluble NPK, Mycorrhizal Fungi inoculate your plants roots" 

I love bmo. but i would love to see a real breakdown on the product.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 11, 2010)

wyteboi said:


> "Endo and Ecto Bacteria protect your plants roots and break down insoluble NPK, Mycorrhizal Fungi inoculate your plants roots"
> 
> I love bmo. but i would love to see a real breakdown on the product.


I doubt if you'll see that, and if you do can you believe their statements? I mean, I don't usually believe in regulation, but these guys can say they have endo this amino that, and it just may not be true....it may contain nothing of the sort, not that they would have any real world benefit to begin with. 

What I like to see is products reviewed by an impartial lab.

UB


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## wyteboi (Mar 11, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> What I like to see is products reviewed by an impartial lab.
> 
> UB


Yes , thats what i like ... no bullshit like an.
Do you know of anywhere i can send my brews to , to get tested ? i know im obsessed but it dont hurt to ask.

I am not saying anything bad about BMO , i just think they are playing the guessing game like the rest of us in organics.
endo and ecto IS myco and their breakdown makes it seem like myco is a fungi and endo/ecto is a seperate bacteria. 
(for my own info , is bacteria and fungi the same thing?)

I also think (almost certain) that the SPT is their own brew of AEM. If its not then they did a VERY good job getting close to the same species of bacteria in their bottle. 
I followed the directions for making bokashi , only instead of using EM , i used SPT ...let it ferment for a couple weeks and it came out smelling like what they describe on the bokashi sites. (sweet an sour ..kinda vinagar/beer?)
anyways i put the fermented food into my very small compost bin (35 gallon trash can 1/3 full) ... and that heated up to around 100F in just a couple days. 
very impressive to me .... so at least i know their is good microbes in the shit.
I just got real EM and i am testing that on some old beat down soil. 

ok im ramblin again ... good day all!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 12, 2010)

wyteboi said:


> Yes , thats what i like ... no bullshit like an.
> Do you know of anywhere i can send my brews to , to get tested ?


No, but I'm sure you can find some if you look hard enough. Fees might be high for single, justified for a firm.


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 12, 2010)

I thought you might enjoy this post from a buddy on a different site regarding Myco. 

Originally posted by Secondtry at ICMAG.

_Here is the effect of P levels (ppm) upon AM fungi infection of pepper and tomato...both of those can be used to model the probable effect of P concentration upon AM fungi infection of cannabis:


_


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## zero1776 (Mar 13, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> I thought you might enjoy this post from a buddy on a different site regarding Myco.
> 
> Originally posted by Secondtry at ICMAG.
> _
> _


_
has anyone tried to make a 5 gal.bucket bio filter and inoculate it with subculture M and subculture B then circulate the water from your Res. through it continuously? I was going to try this next grow.What are your thoughts on that?_


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## wyteboi (Mar 13, 2010)

zero1776 said:


> _
> has anyone tried to make a 5 gal.bucket bio filter and inoculate it with subculture M and subculture B then circulate the water from your Res. through it continuously? I was going to try this next grow.What are your thoughts on that?_


I am not sure the myco will live through all that but it works great for beneficial bacteria in fish tanks..... but i have no idea if that same concept will work in the res. i have always wondered that myself. 
It seems the frequent nute changes and shifts might fuck up the ...uh.. colonization of the bio filter. I really have no idea though.

Another good find dave! 
It has david douds jr's name on the study, so i'll take it as fact.
Not to mention UB lets everyone know about that one (rightfully so) 
TOO MUCH P WILL MAKE THINGS WORSE!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 13, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> I thought you might enjoy this post from a buddy on a different site regarding Myco.
> 
> Originally posted by Secondtry at ICMAG.
> 
> ...


Corroborates what Dr. Linda told me and what (I think) I posted about before in this thread regarding too much P shutting down the exudes from the host plant that support the fungi. I am currently using myco on a large commercial scale and am NOT putting down any food at the time of transplant.

UB


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 13, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Corroborates what Dr. Linda told me and what (I think) I posted about before in this thread regarding too much P shutting down the exudes from the host plant that support the fungi. I am currently using myco on a large commercial scale and am NOT putting down any food at the time of transplant.
> 
> UB


I remember it being said earlier, but the levels I thought it became a problem at are actually much lower than thought. I look at it basically saying Myco and fertilizers dont get along. If you use ferts with myco, your basically flushing wasted money down the toilet.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 14, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> I remember it being said earlier, but the levels I thought it became a problem at are actually much lower than thought. I look at it basically saying Myco and fertilizers dont get along. If you use ferts with myco, your basically flushing wasted money down the toilet.


Yep, and the reason why I entitled this "the caveats". I may be repeating my self but one expert (Dr.) said that the natives will "eat them suckas" meaning the native microbes will use your additions as food and two, you don't need alot of P as it will shut down the host plant's production of exudes, acids and such that feed the fungi. It's not an issue of the two getting along (which seems logical to me too), it's an issue of the myco colony going dormant if you feed your soil too much P which causes the host plant to stop producing goodies for the colony's survival. 

IOW, may just be pissin' up a rope with this stuff, hoo nose? 

How's IC Mag doing? Posted their a while......

UB


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 14, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yep, and the reason why I entitled this "the caveats". I may be repeating my self but one expert (Dr.) said that the natives will "eat them suckas" meaning the native microbes will use your additions as food and two, you don't need alot of P as it will shut down the host plant's production of exudes, acids and such that feed the fungi. It's not an issue of the two getting along (which seems logical to me too), it's an issue of the myco colony going dormant if you feed your soil too much P which causes the host plant to stop producing goodies for the colony's survival.
> 
> IOW, may just be pissin' up a rope with this stuff, hoo nose?
> 
> ...


Well Rez is still a giant douche. Ive only read like two of his posts and I can already tell he's a dick. Apparently alot of people feel that way about him. ahAha. Watch me get banned if he ever reads this. 

I mostly use icmag just to find info about strains I want to grow. Its great they have breeders forums. I wish we had that here. 

Theres also a few smart people over there that supply tons of good info like you do.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 14, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Well Rez is still a giant douche. Ive only read like two of his posts and I can already tell he's a dick. Apparently alot of people feel that way about him. ahAha. Watch me get banned if he ever reads this.


Gypsy and his kind sucked up to Rez based on sales appeal. Rezdog talked shit and most bought into it. I registered, took a shot at him and OldPink/Gypsy banned me.

He's just another cannabis dirtbag. RC banned Rezdog from his Cbay ditty after finding out that he was shilling his Cbay mutts. 

UB


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## Subtlechaos (Mar 16, 2010)

_*Hey, UB. First of all, thank you for posting this. I just ordered some mycorrhizae inoculant. I'm trying to learn as much as I can, before THIS gets here. Are you familiar with this product? Does it sound like something you'd use?

Anyways, do you think you could possibly poke your head in THIS THREAD? Got a couple of specific questions I posted here.

Thank you very much for taking the time, man. You've already been a big help.

(+rep)*_


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## potpimp (Mar 16, 2010)

Subtle, I guess you didn't read the whole thread. Nobody leesen to meeee, LOL.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 16, 2010)

Subtlechaos said:


> _*Hey, UB. First of all, thank you for posting this. I just ordered some mycorrhizae inoculant. I'm trying to learn as much as I can, before THIS gets here. Are you familiar with this product? Does it sound like something you'd use?
> 
> Anyways, do you think you could possibly poke your head in THIS THREAD? Got a couple of specific questions I posted here.
> 
> ...


Good luck finding the perfect magic potion.

UB


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## madcatter (Jan 3, 2011)

I have used one of the myco products to great success... I grow in 5 gal dirt pots and from transplant to first 2 waterings in 5 gallon stage I add some myco juice... and I grow amzingly healthy plants.... I went from 1 inch pots to root bound in 3 gallon pots in 10 days.... the stuff works in my set up...


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## edisonzmedicine (Jan 27, 2011)

Growers are constantly creating artificial environments for their cannabis to thrive in. In natural settings there exists certain ecological systems which took centuries to evolve. A forest floor has a diversity of insects, beneficial fungi and bacterium which work in unison for mineralization of leaf matter back into the NPK needed for the next growing season. Trees absorb nitrogen during most of the growing season in order to re-foliate in the spring. Neighborhood lawns are not a tree's natural environment, nor is a closet a natural environment for cannabis. If we analyzed the soils of the Hindu Kush mountains, and other regions where Afghanica phenotypes are grown, this would give us correct data about the specific fungi and bacterium which exist in the Indica's natural environment. The equatorial soils are home to many Sativa strains, and surely there exists a unique environment where these plants have been propagated for centuries. This thread has been based on a very limed Endomycorrhizal and Ectomycorrizhal fungi which has been researched and developed for completely different applications than our. All the fungi listed in these threads were formulated for growing fruits and vegetables. Cannabis is like no other plant ordinary botanists are accustomed to working with. I believe in beneficial fungi; however, the fungal strains that will work best for growing pot are most likely to be found where the ancient landraces are growing. Unless someone travels the world and collects soil samples, does the lab work and identifies the microbes associated with the landrace parentage our hybrids were generated from, most contenders will continue to be like dogs chasing their tales. I'm going to give Mycogrow a try, and maybe grow some Portabellas as well!


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## snew (Jan 27, 2011)

edisonzmedicine said:


> Growers are constantly creating artificial environments for their cannabis to thrive in. In natural settings there exists certain ecological systems which took centuries to evolve. A forest floor has a diversity of insects, beneficial fungi and bacterium which work in unison for mineralization of leaf matter back into the NPK needed for the next growing season. Trees absorb nitrogen during most of the growing season in order to re-foliate in the spring. Neighborhood lawns are not a tree's natural environment, nor is a closet a natural environment for cannabis. If we analyzed the soils of the Hindu Kush mountains, and other regions where Afghanica phenotypes are grown, this would give us correct data about the specific fungi and bacterium which exist in the Indica's natural environment. The equatorial soils are home to many Sativa strains, and surely there exists a unique environment where these plants have been propagated for centuries. This thread has been based on a very limed Endomycorrhizal and Ectomycorrizhal fungi which has been researched and developed for completely different applications than our. All the fungi listed in these threads were formulated for growing fruits and vegetables. Cannabis is like no other plant ordinary botanists are accustomed to working with. I believe in beneficial fungi; however, the fungal strains that will work best for growing pot are most likely to be found where the ancient landraces are growing. Unless someone travels the world and collects soil samples, does the lab work and identifies the microbes associated with the landrace parentage our hybrids were generated from, most contenders will continue to be like dogs chasing their tales. I'm going to give Mycogrow a try, and maybe grow some Portabellas as well!


Marijuana as we know it, has been cultivated for thousands of years in those mountains. They've been dumping shit in that soil for the same thousands of years. What it reflects is that Afghan Al found that alpaca shit in the compost real seamed to produce bigger buds but Avocados may not do well or vice versa. So the biology of that soil reflects that cultivation effort pf those farmers. Chances are most of those farms have had over use of so many chemical fertilizers and pesticides use that they reflect nothing of what it did 100 years ago. This has been a problem with farms in 3rd world countries throughout the world.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2011)

All boils down to whatever means provides 16 essential elements. 

UB


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## spl1 (Jan 30, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> First off, for those of you who have followed my rants over the years, you know how much I disdain "snake oils" aka "rocket fuels" and the shysters that push them. I do keep an open mind and will take the plunge from time to time but so far I feel I've wasted my money. IOW, if it sounds too good to be true, then it usually is. I consider most of the organic market push to be a big racket based on idealogical fervor and greed. I attended a professional workshop on the use of non-conventional soil additives where such products were applied in field studies with all kinds of crops throughout the U.S. and all products tested (about 10) were found to have no beneficial affect on crop production. Having said that, this raises the question, when can some of these "snake oils" be of benefit to the cannabis gardener? Which brings me to my latest experiment.......
> 
> I recently applied 30 gallons of a MycoApply soluble product to alot of plant material, not cannabis, but all the same as I applied it to very similiar plants regarding their botanical makeup, growth habits, etc. I will be able to judge the results by the end of this growing season as a control group was set aside with no treatment.
> 
> ...


You know I have done controls with and with out the use of fungi. 

Glomus:
This species are entirely asexual. Spores are produced at the tips of hyphae either within the host root or outside the root in the soil. Thought to be chlamydospores, these spores germinate and the germination tube that is produced grows through the soil until it comes into contact with roots. The fungus then penetrates the root and grows between root cells, or it may penetrate the cell wall and grow within root cells. Inside the root, the fungus forms arbuscules, which are highly branched hyphal structures that serve as sites of nutrient exchange with the plant. Arbuscules are formed within plant cell walls but are surrounded by an invaginated cell membrane, so remain within the apoplast. The fungus may also form vesicles, swollen structures which are thought to function as food storage organs.
Out of the species of Glomus there are a few that do well in both soil and hydroponics. These fungi are smaller than 220 microns in size so they will have more per pound and more spores mean more inoculation of the roots both in water and soil. 

Glomus intraradices, Glomus mosseae, Glomus aggregatum, Glomus etunicatum

Trichoderma:
Is a fungus that is also used as a fungicide. It is used for foliar application, seed treatment and soil treatment for suppression of various disease causing fungal pathogens. It is also used for manufacturing enzymes to break down organic matter into use full IONs. 



Rhizopogon: 
Is a genus of hypogeous Basidiomycetes. Recent micromorphological and molecular phylogenetic study has established that Rhizopogon is a member of the Boletales, closely related to Suillus.[1] All species of Rhizopogon are ectomycorrhizal and are thought to play an important role in the ecology of coniferous forests.

Pisolithus Tinctoruis:
Is a cheap filler of fungi that is mostly used for Coniferous and Oak trees.

Rhizopogon and Pisolithus family are useless in growing MJ. Just cheap filler. It has no effect at all on MJ. This is after a 2 year study that I have done on over 30,000 MJ plants and many strains.

Most soil's produced for retail sales in the USA are sterilized in a steam oven killing most fungi and most of the living bacteria. That why most organics growers compost there own soil and do not buy over the counter soils. Some companies add this back into the soil but at a very low rate to save in cost and be able to claim it on the bags label.

Not all fungi works with MJ. The company that manufactures MycroApply also manufactures 80% of the markets fungi in the USA. MycroApply does not make the Fungi they just market it under a few names like Great White, Plant success. Here is a picture of a fungi colony on a root system, In this picture we see the big balls in the root with the cell walls which are the spores, the fine spiderweb bushes are vesicles and the football shaped cell is a storage vesicle. You can also see some filaments of the mycorrhizal association growing outside the root.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 31, 2011)

spl1 said:


> You know I have done controls with and with out the use of fungi.


 Good on ya!



> Rhizopogon and Pisolithus family are useless in growing MJ. Just cheap filler. It has no effect at all on MJ. This is after a 2 year study that I have done on over 30,000 MJ plants and many strains.


Say what? Where did you grow 30K cannabis plants?



> Most soil's produced for retail sales in the USA are sterilized in a steam oven killing most fungi and most of the living bacteria. That why most organics growers compost there own soil and do not buy over the counter soils. Some companies add this back into the soil but at a very low rate to save in cost and be able to claim it on the bags label.


Don't know about the steam drill, do know that bagged products are too damn expensive! If the small apartment dweller can't compost, he can get an old ice chest, punch holes in the bottom of it for drainage and aeration, and start a small worm farm.

Couple of weeks ago I rented a 4.5 cu. yd. dump trailer and hauled horse manure/green matter, twas steaming and black as we loaded it, and then filled up my pickup bed with compost from a landscaper friend that is strictly a pure organic grower. His compost consists of whatever the city picks up and hauls to his farm - leaves, grass clippings, tree chippings from mainly oaks, etc. He mixes the green matter with horse manure for the N. I'm talking huge 200' long windrows watered with drip pipe and turned with a 12' wide mixer driven by a 270 HP Cummings.

Needless to say, I'm set. 



> Not all fungi works with MJ. The company that manufactures MycroApply also manufactures 80% of the markets fungi in the USA.


Not that it needed it, but I applied a 5 gallon drench with MycoApply added to a new compost pile I made of various stuff, rate of 1 tsp/gallon, and an ammonium sulfate drench as an Aggie analysis showed it real low in N, plus I wanted to drop the pH a bit, reason for choosing the sulfate form of ammonium. Stuff should grow about anything!






Another thing folks need to watch out for is herbicide residues that get composted in green matter but don't decay. Picloram, a long term residual broad leaf herbicide and widely used on grazing land, is notorious for sticking around for too long in the soil to which is was sprayed. If you apply compost made from grazing livestock that have been feeding on such treated fields, and your plants look stunted, yellowed, then suspect herbicide residues (low N, bad watering aside). IOW, know your source of green matter.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 31, 2011)

Let's see if this works.

Edit - Nope, your image doesn't display spl1


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## spl1 (Jan 31, 2011)

> Say what? Where did you grow 30K cannabis plants?


I am in charge of a large dispensary grow op in Colorado we have four 6,000sq ft locations that we grow out of. each one is basically 2 to 3 weeks apart from each other, with 40 strains at each location. That way we never run out of product.



> Don't know about the steam drill, do know that bagged products are too damn expensive! If the small apartment dweller can't compost, he can get an old ice chest, punch holes in the bottom of it for drainage and aeration, and start a small worm farm.
> 
> Couple of weeks ago I rented a 4.5 cu. yd. dump trailer and hauled horse manure/green matter, twas steaming and black as we loaded it, and then filled up my pickup bed with compost from a landscaper friend that is strictly a pure organic grower. His compost consists of whatever the city picks up and hauls to his farm - leaves, grass clippings, tree chippings from mainly oaks, etc. He mixes the green matter with horse manure for the N. I'm talking huge 200' long windrows watered with drip pipe and turned with a 12' wide mixer driven by a 270 HP Cummings.
> 
> Needless to say, I'm set.


 Nice I like to compost my own for my outdoor landscape around my place, so much cheaper and enjoyable in the end.




> Not that it needed it, but I applied a 5 gallon drench with MycoApply added to a new compost pile I made of various stuff, rate of 1 tsp/gallon, and an ammonium sulfate drench as an Aggie analysis showed it real low in N, plus I wanted to drop the pH a bit, reason for choosing the sulfate form of ammonium. Stuff should grow about anything!


That would do it for sure.



> Another thing folks need to watch out for is herbicide residues that get composted in green matter but don't decay. Picloram, a long term residual broad leaf herbicide and widely used on grazing land, is notorious for sticking around for too long in the soil to which is was sprayed. If you apply compost made from grazing livestock that have been feeding on such treated fields, and your plants look stunted, yellowed, then suspect herbicide residues (low N, bad watering aside). IOW, know your source of green matter.
> 
> UB


 I don't like to use to much green matter in my compost piles, I personally like it field dried before I add any cow or horse manure. That just me. 

Peace Spl1


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## krok (Feb 4, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> All boils down to whatever means provides 16 essential elements.
> 
> UB


I hope I'm not mistaken, but you are currently running a test? (with/without mycorrizal fungi).

You seem very skeptical to mycorrhizal fungi, which is not a bad thing. Just keep that in mind so you don't overlook any positive effects.
As long as you have a scientific mindset (open), I look forward to your conclusion.

My guess is that since you are so experienced in growing, having dialed in your setup perfectly, the result will be similar to your previous harvest, and any positive effect from myco's will be minimal.

Anyway, my point with this post:

As you know, there is a LOT of new growers out there, and their setup is not 100% perfect, and REGULARLY their plants suffers due to several issues - as you can see every day on the sick-plants forum.

So a product like mycorrizal fungi, which help the plants even though the grower is not providing everything they need, will certainly be helpful. In this case, the myco's should make the plant tolerate less-than-perfect conditions better - therefore not a waste of money.

Of course, it all depends on the claim that myco's don't work for short-lived plants like Marijuana (which I find hard to believe).


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## spl1 (Feb 4, 2011)

krok said:


> I hope I'm not mistaken, but you are currently running a test? (with/without mycorrizal fungi).


He is running a test on regular plants in is garden



krok said:


> Of course, it all depends on the claim that myco's don't work for short-lived plants like Marijuana (which I find hard to believe).


I don't know who is saying that, I just had 3000 pounds mixed up that we have been testing for 2 years on MMJ. It works great, but very few Endo's can pass a #70 screen for high psi aero jets. Yes it is 3000 pounds for this next 6 month run of plants.


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## Wolverine97 (Feb 5, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Great post. High P foods can kill this group of fungi. If I was doing soil-less, ecto and endo forms of myco might be beneficial. Only by running a control group can you get an answer.
> 
> If you are stupid enough to buy Voodoo Juice (or anything AN sells for that matter), then you deserve to get burned. 1 l. for $69?????? I bought a product for $39 that makes up to 200 gallons of a soil drench, and that's a one time hit too. For starts, "Voodoo Juice is not a mycorrhizal mixture." http://www.hydroempire.com/store/product_info.php/products_id/504?osCsid=433d781fceebacb62ca878f16497b9a1
> 
> ...


UB;
Marijuana does not benefit at all from ecto species of Myco's, only the endo species is of any real value to pot cultivators. Ecto's are primarily for evergreens, berrrys, and other species. I have performed fairly well controlled comparison's both with, and without the addition of beneficial's including trichoderma species, and the root growth is night and day different when using a an organically modified soil-less mix. 

One new product I'm really looking into is Azos, from Xtreme Gardening. They have some pretty bold claims (as usual), but I think it's worth further investigation and reading.


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## coolupdscene (Feb 14, 2011)

Uncle Ben your threads are the shit and i use them all the time but never have been able to get a response and i have a really important question: a few days ago a buddy of mine gave me a super lemon haze that was in all hydroton...i dont do that so i transplanted it into straight soil fox farm happy frog with mycorrihaze. only thing was. the roots were coming out of the bottom of the hydroton containers holes so when i transplantd i had to slice them they were all tangled up and looked like dreadlocks, so i sliced them so i could pull them through the containers bottom holes once i emptied all of the hydroton out. well since then in the soil it seems to not be growing at all and it wont "stand up" like im so used to with fast growing plants...what do you think is the problem? and also this transplant was over a week ago and the plant is just stagnant except for a few leaves that died and were somewhat green but super dry and life less, there wasnts even ne water bleeding from the leafs stem when i pulled it off it almost seemed hollowed out...ne help please, i wont have a plant die in my garden


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> UB;
> Marijuana does not benefit at all from ecto species of Myco's, only the endo species is of any real value to pot cultivators. Ecto's are primarily for evergreens, berrrys, and other species. I have performed fairly well controlled comparison's both with, and without the addition of beneficial's including trichoderma species, and the root growth is night and day different when using a an organically modified soil-less mix.
> 
> One new product I'm really looking into is Azos, from Xtreme Gardening. They have some pretty bold claims (as usual), but I think it's worth further investigation and reading.


I bought an all-in-one product so I don't miss any plant material which includes trees, fruits, berries, grapes, veggies, pot, etc........ If you really want to get serious with this stuff, talk to a pro. Dr. Mark McFarland with TX A&M is your man. I attended a seminar where he gave a talk about the use of unconventional additives.



coolupdscene said:


> ......... well since then in the soil it seems to not be growing at all and it wont "stand up" like im so used to with fast growing plants...what do you think is the problem? and also this transplant was over a week ago and the plant is just stagnant except for a few leaves that died and were somewhat green but super dry and life less, there wasnts even ne water bleeding from the leafs stem when i pulled it off it almost seemed hollowed out...ne help please, i wont have a plant die in my garden


Could be any one of a dozen cultural issues - lighting, root rot, food, but most likely you butchered the root system such that it's suffering from a lack of cell turgor pressure, moisture stress. All depends on how you handled the plant, what you transplanted in, how you transplanted. I can only guess with such limited info and no pix.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2011)

krok said:


> I hope I'm not mistaken, but you are currently running a test? (with/without mycorrizal fungi).


No



> You seem very skeptical to mycorrhizal fungi, which is not a bad thing. Just keep that in mind so you don't overlook any positive effects.


I thought I mentioned the positive effects on page one including a link to a real scientific experiment on grapes with electron mike photos.

Bottom line is, if you have a good organic soil, you don't need any additives. If you go soil-less or hydro, then you need the 16 essential elements. It's not necessarily about microbes, this is about plant nutrition. All the goodies are already there - fungi, bacteria, fulvic/humic acids, your mother's favorite microbe cache. A couple of weeks ago I rented a 4 1/2 cu. yd. dump trailer and hauled in tons of washed builder's sand and two loads of organics - one was horse manure with stable hay that had been composting naturally for years (20' high pile) and another from my eco-wacky friend who does commercial composting using a 12' wide windrow turner driven by a 270HP Cummings. This aint crap stuff you get out of an Advanced Shysters bottle, it is the real thing. I'm not some kid buying the label, I'm sourcing the nutritional value of a product. Recently I received a report back from the bio-solids testing lab of TX A&M on my friend's compost and it's about as perfect regarding NPK and the micros as can be, and it should be. He gets his green material free from the city, so the base material consists of leaves, grass clippings, twigs, chipped trees and then adds horse manure to the final mix to feed the microbes their needed N. There you have it, the perfect organic addition at a very cheap price. Horse compost was free, friend's compost charge was $25 for 1.5 cu. yds. or a pickup load. NPK=14-5-10

BTW, I'm always "dialing in". 



> So a product like mycorrizal fungi, which help the plants even though the grower is not providing everything they need, will certainly be helpful.


Maybe, maybe not. I don't have an answer to how long it takes for the goodies to come out of dormancy and populate. I know it's not a waste of time with a perennial, just might be with an annual such as cannabis. So, why not use good compost which already has a active colony of microbes? I can only assume that your end result, timing, is dependent on factors such as soil temps, moisture levels, salts, etc. IOW, find out the conditions that are favorable for myco pops to explode and then go from there. I'm a caveat mofo.

I report, you decide,
Uncle Ben
.
.


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## Wolverine97 (Feb 15, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> I bought an all-in-one product so I don't miss any plant material which includes trees, fruits, berries, grapes, veggies, pot, etc........ If you really want to get serious with this stuff, talk to a pro. Dr. Mark McFarland with TX A&M is your man. I attended a seminar where he gave a talk about the use of unconventional additives.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info, I'll definitely check him out. I'm attending a master gardeners course locally this spring, we'll see how that goes. 

I used to buy into all of the hyped up super expensive products, but the last few years I've been creating my own blends to use on my test plants. I grow some of my stuff organically, some with chemmy ferts, but I've been researching the hell out of different benny's and their effects. If you aren't using it already, I'd highly recommend adding some trichoderma species as a soil innoculant in addition to the myc's. They are parasitic in nature, and have a much broader effect than myc's alone. Xtreme Gardening makes good beneficial's, and they have a product called Azos (totally unique, if it works) that I'm really looking into.


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## dannyboy602 (Feb 15, 2011)

A controled study is a good idea, but who has time? I have thirty years as a professional gardener and know MR is important as it forms a symbiotic relationship with the plant, taking in sugars for it's own sustinance and increasing surface area for plant root systems to absorb nutrients that it would otherwise not have access to . This is done through a network of mycelium growth, an explosive and fast growing mat like system of root hair like material.
So as to your question of how fast does it contribute to rate of growth and overall plant health I'd say pretty darn fast. 
I'd also like to add this tidbit which is easy enough to access through wikipedia


This mutualistic association provides the fungus with relatively constant and direct access to carbohydrates, such as glucose and sucrose supplied by the plant.[4] The carbohydrates are translocated from their source (usually leaves) to root tissue and on to fungal partners. In return, the plant gains the benefits of the mycelium's higher absorptive capacity for water and mineral nutrients (due to comparatively large surface area of mycelium:root ratio), thus improving the plant's mineral absorption capabilities.[5]
Plant roots alone may be incapable of taking up phosphate ions that are demineralized, for example, in soils with a basic pH. The mycelium of the mycorrhizal fungus can, however, access these phosphorus sources, and make them available to the plants they colonize.[6]

I'm starting a grow of BC God Bud and am including pix. The only nutes were inherent in the mix from a company called ROOTS ORGANIC.
I'm also using two tablespoond Epsom Salts in to one gallon of water which seems to be having a steroid like effect. Peace
The plants were germed on Jan 15 and all pix were taken Feb 12, 2011


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## coolupdscene (Feb 15, 2011)

Ok, so when i transplanted i just hld the plant while i tipped the pot on its side and let the hydroton fallout. Then put a small amount of soil in a pot that is 2 gallons larger than it was in b4. Next i held the plant with the roots dangling in the pot with soil on the bottom so that the bottom of the plants roots were just touching the bottom layer of soil. then i just filled up the pot with soil as i held the plant and filled the pot with soil until the roots were covered....but like i said, when the plant was still in it hydroton the roots were coming out of the bottom drain holes of the pot and tangling up in a web so i had to slice the roots vertically so they formed small clusters that i could pulll through the drain holes on the pot.


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## rjl (Feb 21, 2011)

UB,
I am intrigued by this thread and am going to start a program with careful documentation using Arbustular Mycorrhizal fungus. DIEHARD&#8482; Root Reviver&#8482;, from Forestry Suppliers, Inc.
sells this this product which is formulated as a preparation to inoculate the roots of tree and shrubs with live beneficial mycorrhizal fungi when planting. It contains highly selected endo and ectomycorrhizae fungi that will quickly colonize the roots of new transplants to provide the best possible condition for the roots to grow and extract from the root zone water and nutrients. The fungi is combined with humic acids, Trichoderma, biostimulants, beneficial bacteria, soluble sea kelp, yucca plant extracts, amino acids, and vitamins to promote rapid root development. To reduce transplant stress and watering maintenance, for convenience, consistency, and to reduce waste, the product is packaged in pre-measured labeled bags and is also available in bulk. 

Your comment in the first post &#8220;The use of this product is best when you're using soil-less potting mixes as mixes rich in compost will likely not see any real world benefit.&#8221; Indicates that one may use the following from your recipe:

a good organic soil, washed builder's sand, organic&#8217;s, horse manure and eco-wacky friend&#8217;s compost (he gets his green material free from the city, so the base material consists of leaves, grass clippings, twigs, chipped trees and then adds horse manure to the final mix). can I assume that this mixture would be correct for a &#8220;soil-less&#8221; potting mix? I am trying to grasp the concept of myco&#8217;s and how they live, and feed. I do know that they have a symbiotic relationship with the host roots, which I assume will need feeding at some point.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 22, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Thanks for the info, I'll definitely check him out. I'm attending a master gardeners course locally this spring, we'll see how that goes.


I'm a Master Gardener and loved the course and networking. Have fun.



> If you aren't using it already, I'd highly recommend adding some trichoderma species as a soil innoculant in addition to the myc's.


The product I use (Soluble Maxx) has trikes. http://www.mycorrhizae.com/tools-tips-products

Notice the article says it takes 3 weeks for the fungi to germinate. Also note the shysters like Humboldt are buying their products, reducing the amount of product by a 1/3 and selling the repackaged product for 3 times as much.



dannyboy602 said:


> So as to your question of how fast does it contribute to rate of growth and overall plant health I'd say pretty darn fast.


Just a thought, once you've established a colony, applied it, you should not have to apply it again. 



> Plant roots alone may be incapable of taking up phosphate ions that are demineralized, for example, in soils with a basic pH. The mycelium of the mycorrhizal fungus can, however, access these phosphorus sources, and make them available


Yep. The link I gave you explains the P thingie.



rjl said:


> UB,
> I am intrigued by this thread and am going to start a program with careful documentation using Arbustular Mycorrhizal fungus. DIEHARD&#8482; Root Reviver&#8482;, from Forestry Suppliers, Inc.


Good luck with that.



> Your comment in the first post &#8220;The use of this product is best when you're using soil-less potting mixes as mixes rich in compost will likely not see any real world benefit.&#8221; Indicates that one may use the following from your recipe:
> 
> a good organic soil, washed builder's sand, organic&#8217;s, horse manure and eco-wacky friend&#8217;s compost (he gets his green material free from the city, so the base material consists of leaves, grass clippings, twigs, chipped trees and then adds horse manure to the final mix).
> 
> can I assume that this mixture would be correct for a &#8220;soil-less&#8221; potting mix? I am trying to grasp the concept of myco&#8217;s and how they live, and feed. I do know that they have a symbiotic relationship with the host roots, which I assume will need feeding at some point.


You can add it to your soil-less mix if that's what you mean. It'll just kick up a notch. See the link above. It covers all mediums and practices.

FWIW, don't know if I mentioned this but I recently got a test back from the Aggie bio-solids division of their water and soil testing lab and my friend's compost is gold when it comes to NPK values, it's a 13-5-8, has all micros, Ca, Mg and of course is loaded with humic/fulvic acids, microbes, etc. I put about a yd. in my garden and dumped the rest in my compost pile, which consists of wood shavings and misc. stuff. To that I added a drench of ammonium sulfate to feed the microbes N, lower the pH and poured on a drench of Myco-Apply Soluble Maxx. If you have the place for it and the materials, this is the way to go for several reasons - you know what's in it, you can gain a lot of bulk, and it's cheap. If you're in an apartment, then start a worm farm using an old ice box. 

Good luck,
UB


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## rjl (Mar 2, 2011)

Uncle Ben in his first post; *I recently applied 30 gallons of a MycoApply soluble product to alot of plant material, not cannabis, but all the same as I applied it to very similiar plants regarding their botanical makeup, growth habits, etc. I will be able to judge the results by the end of this growing season as a control group was set aside with no treatment. *After reading the entire thread, I decided to delve into fungicides. I spent a day researching on the internet, and decided on a product known as "Diehard Root Reviver", a dry granular mycorrhizal fungi inoculant "cocktail" consisting of endo- and ectomycorrhizal fungi. The fungi was applied to two (2), 29 day old afghan plants that were started from seeds. I applied per instruction, 36 oz's of the product. Each plant got three holes around the root ball, about 4 inches from the plant stem 10 inches deep. 6 ounces granular fungi of fungi per hole was applied. Another 2 inches of top soil was added and the mycorrhizal fungi were "watered in" with approximately one gallon of distilled water without nutes. Also, two (2) clones from the "true node topping procedure" from the aforementioned plants, now showing roots from their jiffy pellets, were administered 2 ounces granular fungi. Procedure In layers: place two inches of soil in bottom of pot, add 2 ounces of fungi granules, add 2 inches soil, add jiffy pellet root ball and additional soil as needed to cover root ball. Firmly press down and apply generous amount of distilled H2O until saturated. place in humidity dome for 48 hours under 20/4 lighting.


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## rjl (Mar 2, 2011)

P.S. I would start a grow journal, but I cannot figure out how to do it step by step.


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## sfrenger (Jun 5, 2011)

RogueReefer said:


> Has anyone tried Rick's Monster Grow Mix. It has mycorrhizae in it. just got some and put it on our plants at our legal grow. We will see how it goes, lol.


Rogue, What is your take on the Ricks Monster Grow? Was it worth the money?


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## datsun 1/2 dozen sd (Jul 15, 2011)

how did that ricks monster grow mix i got afew jars just se if there is any other reveiws


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## datsun 1/2 dozen sd (Jul 15, 2011)

RogueReefer said:


> Has anyone tried Rick's Monster Grow Mix. It has mycorrhizae in it. just got some and put it on our plants at our legal grow. We will see how it goes, lol.


how is ricks monster grow mix was it worth it


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## Prefontaine (Jul 15, 2011)

I use great white, I water with nutes great white and guano every time, each 3-5 days depending on soil moisture, when the top of the soil is drying I can see fungus clearly, whether or not plants benefit from microbes is not a debatable topic, they do, you can grow without them, but your are putting extra effort into growing against the plants natural design, 

the snake oils are usually just nutritional mixes designed specifically to boost microbial populations, healthy populations=increased nutrient uptake=bigger denser buds. 

I am considering using a tiny bit of molasses in my watering too, to feed the beneficial bacteria. but only a tiny bit.


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## born2killspam (Jul 16, 2011)

Prefontaine said:


> I use great white, I water with nutes great white and guano every time, each 3-5 days depending on soil moisture, when the top of the soil is drying I can see fungus clearly, whether or not plants benefit from microbes is not a debatable topic, they do, you can grow without them, but your are putting extra effort into growing against the plants natural design,
> 
> the snake oils are usually just nutritional mixes designed specifically to boost microbial populations, healthy populations=increased nutrient uptake=bigger denser buds.
> 
> I am considering using a tiny bit of molasses in my watering too, to feed the beneficial bacteria. but only a tiny bit.


The amount of benefit will vary depending on the health of your soil, and the type of nutes you use.. If you use hydroponics ferts in soil then there won't be as much benefit, because they are designed to be plant available in a sterile environment.. (Yet there will likely be some small benefit due to the subtle things that hydro doesn't typically offer the plants..) If your soil is extremely good then you won't notice as much benefit as if it was crappy soil, but likely won't hurt anything and will likely only boost it.. These things just suppliment the soil health.. Soil is a living growing thing in its own right.. 
On another note, feed those microbes.. They like complex food like compost and molasses/sugars for energization, O2, and reproduction.. When they're healthy and satisfied they do their best job at breaking down things that plants can't use to things plant want..
I used to use bush soil from deciduous valley areas with really humus soil.. There is a reason those areas are so fertile.. That is risky though I admit, so if you have the money for a guaranteed infestation free product that has proven itself, I have no argument..


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## supremegrowers (Sep 19, 2011)

aeviaanah said:


> I use age old grow mycorrhizae. i read in urban garden magazine today that synthetic nutrients will not harm mycorrhizal fungi.


Just a heads up friends! Mycorrhizae may not technically be killed by chemical fertilizers, but enough chemical fertilizers will put them into dormancy, so they are inactive and sleeping. this is as bad as them being dead imo. I use myco with lots of success and am able to feed less nutes and get bigger plants,roots and buds. remember that the mycorrhizae (I use MycoBlast because its strong) grows long root hypae (long hairs that absorb water/nutes) from places that roots can not. they also are a fungus so they can absorb nutrients like PH directly from the soil and then trans-locate it via arbuscles, directly to the cell membrane of the root tissue. the result is more nutrition to the plant while using less fertilizer overall. I have many articles that break it down into simple terms. try this one for starters http://www.supremegrowers.com/news/22/3-key-benefits-of-mycorrhizae-in-the-garden-.html If you are really into reaping the advantages of organics and mycorrhizae, use any chem fertilizers at about 20%-30% strength, and try to use something myco friendly. Organic fertilizers like Age Old will not hurt mycorrhizae at all. Salts like GH 3 part will slow them to a crawl. Canna nutes work well with myco populations. learn more and get myco for under $3 at www.supremegrowers.com 
grow kind and stay kind
happy gardening


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## cannawizard (Sep 20, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> First off, for those of you who have followed my rants over the years, you know how much I disdain "snake oils" aka "rocket fuels" and the shysters that push them. I do keep an open mind and will take the plunge from time to time but so far I feel I've wasted my money. IOW, if it sounds too good to be true, then it usually is. I consider most of the organic market push to be a big racket based on idealogical fervor and greed. I attended a professional workshop on the use of non-conventional soil additives where such products were applied in field studies with all kinds of crops throughout the U.S. and all products tested (about 10) were found to have no beneficial affect on crop production. Having said that, this raises the question, when can some of these "snake oils" be of benefit to the cannabis gardener? Which brings me to my latest experiment.......
> 
> I recently applied 30 gallons of a MycoApply soluble product to alot of plant material, not cannabis, but all the same as I applied it to very similiar plants regarding their botanical makeup, growth habits, etc. I will be able to judge the results by the end of this growing season as a control group was set aside with no treatment.
> 
> ...


*that made sense.. " imperative that you also have a control group and take careful notes, which no one seems to want to do,"... been neglecting that.. thnx uncle ben, damn this post is 2009..
--i wonder if you have any 'new' input after all these years  would like to learn what you've discovered.

--cheers


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 20, 2011)

cannawizard said:


> *that made sense.. " imperative that you also have a control group and take careful notes, which no one seems to want to do,"... been neglecting that.. thnx uncle ben, damn this post is 2009..
> --i wonder if you have any 'new' input after all these years  would like to learn what you've discovered.
> 
> --cheers


Yeah, that I'm $60 poorer with no conclusions regarding the value of any of these additives.


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## cannawizard (Sep 20, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yeah, that I'm $60 poorer with no conclusions regarding the value of any of these additives.


*hhmm.. so i guess im better off with microbes present from rich compost..


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 20, 2011)

cannawizard said:


> *hhmm.. so i guess im better off with microbes present from rich compost..


Yep. Funny you should mention that. I just finished a new section of my garden which is now 1/4 native clay loam, the rest sandy loam and BLACK horse compost manure in a raised bed. Maters will surely be 10' tall, not the typical wimpy 6 footers. 

UB


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## cannawizard (Sep 20, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yep. Funny you should mention that. I just finished a new section of my garden which is now 1/4 native clay loam, the rest sandy loam and BLACK horse compost manure in a raised bed. Maters will surely be 10' tall, not the typical wimpy 6 footers.
> 
> UB


*gd uncle, im jelly .. i hope, soon one day, have "backyard" space to do that.. ; been researching that japanese fermentation (not the one that was bottled.. lol) process.. good stuff


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 21, 2011)

cannawizard said:


> *gd uncle, im jelly .. i hope, soon one day, have "backyard" space to do that.. ; been researching that japanese fermentation (not the one that was bottled.. lol) process.. good stuff


Ya need to add a greenhouse to that backyard too. I just did.....a big sucka!


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 21, 2011)

cannawizard said:


> *hhmm.. so i guess im better off with microbes present from rich compost..


Much better off if you can control any nasties that may be present. Bottled/powdered microbes can't even compare in strength to that which grow naturally (and in proper balance) in compost.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 21, 2011)

What's interesting is the color of this horse manure compost, it's black which means its super high in humates and of course microbes. No nasties, this stuff was taken from riding horse stables along with the bedding straw and sat there in a pile months if not a year or so. I just hope I didn't burn a bunch of stuff as we've had no rain to speak of in 12 months. I applied it everywhere in mass using tractor bucket loads. We're talking yards of the stuff, not bags.

Nothing's green anymore, just dirt - no creeks, rivers, big lakes drying up old native trees dieing. Worst drought and record breaking heat.....ever.


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## wyteboi (Sep 21, 2011)

cannawizard said:


> been researching that japanese fermentation (not the one that was bottled.. lol) process.. good stuff


That's a very amazing subject. I have a anaerobic brew of compost and i have aerobic compost an worm bins. 
It's dr. Higa's research that i have been reading i think ? is that the japaneese fermentation your referring to ?







soil


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 21, 2011)

wyteboi said:


> That's a very amazing subject. I have a anaerobic brew of compost and i have aerobic compost an worm bins.
> It's dr. Higa's research that i have been reading i think ? is that the japaneese fermentation your referring to ?
> 
> 
> ...



The method is called Bokashi unless I'm mistaken, which is possible.


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## wyteboi (Sep 21, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> The method is called Bokashi unless I'm mistaken, which is possible.


yea that is dr higa's stuff. Bokashi and EM are very good things to research. Its fun.

I make bokashi oatmeal for my doggy. all my scraps go into the bokashi bucket until i decide to feed the worms. My EM just finished brewing , so its time to use on my girls, they love it.





soil


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## cannawizard (Sep 21, 2011)

wyteboi said:


> That's a very amazing subject. I have a anaerobic brew of compost and i have aerobic compost an worm bins.
> It's dr. Higa's research that i have been reading i think ? is that the japaneese fermentation your referring to ?
> 
> soil


*yes it is.. ive found 1 more i think, she's a colleague of his.. not sure..

--just got started making my own anaerobic teas  .. cant believe i wasted so much time on synthetics... sigh


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 21, 2011)

cannawizard said:


> *yes it is.. ive found 1 more i think, she's a colleague of his.. not sure..
> 
> --just got started making my own anaerobic teas  .. cant believe i wasted so much time on synthetics... sigh


If it aint got chemicals, it aint gonna work.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 21, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> If it aint got chemicals, it aint gonna work.


Eh, I respectfully disagree with that. There is a small nutrient value to most teas, but when the microbes poop, and the nematodes eat the microbes and then poop, that poop (which contains organic chemicals) feeds the plant. But maybe I misunderstood what you're saying...


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 21, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Eh, I respectfully disagree with that. There is a small nutrient value to most teas, but when the microbes poop, and the nematodes eat the microbes and then poop, that poop (which contains organic chemicals) feeds the plant. But maybe I misunderstood what you're saying...


Plants don't take in 'poop', they take in chemicals aka salts. There's no such thing as "organic chemicals". It's either potassium sulfate, ammonium sulfate, ammonium phosphate, potassium chloride, potassium nitrate, iron sulfate, etc. or it's more of the same ole organic hype show found in cannabis forums.


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## cannawizard (Sep 21, 2011)

*all organic/carbon based ANYTHING breaks down to chemical(s)/biocomposition/atomiccomposition.. that i will not argue 

--i think the organic guys are just saying its all in the delivery.. method.

its cooler with germs, hahaha

(i come in peace)


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 22, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Plants don't take in 'poop', they take in chemicals aka salts. There's no such thing as "organic chemicals". It's either potassium sulfate, ammonium sulfate, ammonium phosphate, potassium chloride, potassium nitrate, iron sulfate, etc. or it's more of the same ole organic hype show found in cannabis forums.


Welp, it works pretty damned well for me... and what do you mean there's no such thing as "organic chemicals"? Whether my nitrates come from a synthetic source or organic, it's still a "chemical". Semantics...


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 22, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Welp, it works pretty damned well for me... and what do you mean there's no such thing as "organic chemicals"? Whether my nitrates come from a synthetic source or organic, it's still a "chemical". Semantics...


Organics are composed of inorganic minerals. Yep, it is all about the delivery. The only reason why I like blood meal is because it's a slow release of N. The fact that it's organic doesn't really matter. I'm into soil health, reason why I just dumped a truck load of horse compost on my reworked veggie garden.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 22, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Organics are composed of inorganic minerals. Yep, it is all about the delivery. The only reason why I like blood meal is because it's a slow release of N. The fact that it's organic doesn't really matter. I'm into soil health, reason why I just dumped a truck load of horse compost on my reworked veggie garden.


Yeah, I'm with ya there. It's all about the soil.


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## hypocritisizer (Sep 22, 2011)

Whats up guys! awesome thread going on,

so anyone ever consider useing benificial bacteria and fungi in their rockwool soaks??? 

i like to soak my rockwool in a P-K rich, ph'd, with some roots excelorater and superthrive. was doing some reading and am now considering going for some myco madness(or maximum, or maybe both with some great white). anyone every run this stuff in a rockwool soak?

peace out!


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## wyteboi (Sep 22, 2011)

hypocritisizer said:


> Whats up guys! awesome thread going on,
> 
> so anyone ever consider useing benificial bacteria and fungi in their rockwool soaks???
> 
> ...


You mean for cloning ? It wouldnt hurt either way.



soil


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## cannawizard (Sep 22, 2011)

hypocritisizer said:


> Whats up guys! awesome thread going on,
> 
> so anyone ever consider useing benificial bacteria and fungi in their rockwool soaks???
> 
> ...


*got some submerged rockwool w/ 25species.. test run of sorts... all gravvy... try it


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## potpimp (Sep 22, 2011)

Yipeeeee, Uncle Ben is back!! Wolverine, I've followed UB's advice on many things and he is always right. He is not just a pot grower; he is a master gardener. Trust me, the man knows how to grow anything and _especially_ pot! Uncle Ben it is so good to see you back here. I am proud to say you are my hero.  I can't find the "kiss-ass" smileys, LOL.

...oh, there they are; you just type in the words.


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## lxyzeroomer (Sep 23, 2011)

what do you think about mykos,azos and calcarb ?


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## cannawizard (Sep 23, 2011)

lxyzeroomer said:


> what do you think about mykos,azos and calcarb ?


*currently using mykos(wp,gran)--azos--calcarb.. all good stuff and doesnt hurt the pocket


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 23, 2011)

potpimp said:


> Yipeeeee, Uncle Ben is back!! Wolverine, I've followed UB's advice on many things and he is always right. He is not just a pot grower; he is a master gardener. Trust me, the man knows how to grow anything and _especially_ pot! Uncle Ben it is so good to see you back here. I am proud to say you are my hero.  I can't find the "kiss-ass" smileys, LOL.
> 
> ...oh, there they are; you just type in the words.


Appreciate the kind words, have a good one!


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## hypocritisizer (Sep 24, 2011)

cannawizard said:


> *got some submerged rockwool w/ 25species.. test run of sorts... all gravvy... try it


Alright, im gonna do a little side by side comparison. If u guys are interested I could throw up some pics with my results?



wyteboi said:


> You mean for cloning ? It wouldnt hurt either way.
> 
> 
> 
> soil


Not necessarily just for cloning; seed germination, transplanting, and cuttings or clones to.


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## tkowitha123 (Nov 8, 2013)

This plant-fungal symbiosis is so suc*cessful that the vast majority of the world&#8217;s terrestrial plants, over 90 per*cent, form a mycorrhizal relationship in their natural habitats.
An excellent book that will assist your transition to organics is: Teaming With Microbes: The Organic Gardener&#8217;s Guide to the Soil Food Web

There are over 80 thousand white papers on the fungus and how it enhances plant growth and improves yields.
As bulk suppliers to the commercial trade all products are packaged in volume.

*Hydroponics Application*:



Mix Mycorrhizae directly with seeds or they can be added directly to nutrient solution.
Maintain a pH of 5.5-7.5 for best results
Maintain P at less than 70ppm
Use mycorrhizal inoculums that contain multiple species
Use aeration in the system, or ebb/flow as these species are aerobic
Once plants are effectively colonized *fertility can be reduced 30%*
Best results are obtained with multiple applications throughout the growth cycle


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## harris hawk (Nov 8, 2013)

Good information - a lot of people don't know the rewards of using a root stimlator


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## superjet (Nov 9, 2013)

i'm growing in straight coco using gh nutes, flora series, maxibloom, silica, Epsom and some calimagic basically. I have been growing a certain (larry) clone only now for almost two years with no change to my room other than changing my bulbs (ushios are the shit) and when I started using gh subculture m at transplants and the subculter b, florslicious plus and floranectar sugar cane, my shit improved big time! I am constantly growing out the same plant with mycos and bennies, and without, and nobody (on this planet) is going to tell me they don't improve my root zone and yield because they do/have. I didn't at first think they would work with chemical nutes, but my results say they do. i think it's some kind of conspiracy made by organic farmers that bennies and chemical ferts can't live together, hahaha.


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