# Uncle Ben's Topping Technique to Get 2 or 4 Main Colas



## Uncle Ben (Jan 17, 2009)

Howdy!

Based on quite a few questions about topping I've received here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a-12.html I decided to reproduce a thread on my favorite topping method published at cann.com about 10 years ago. Even though I've got much better photos from many latter grows both indoor and outdoor, I'm gonna stick with the old photos from the original thread. Lighting is HPS from start to finish with the exception of using 4' long shop fluors from germ until about 2 weeks. Some pix were taken outdoors for better resolution thanks to an old camcorder I was using.
*
Selecting the point for topping to get 4 main colas* - 

To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node. The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count. The result will be a redistribution of the auxins and other hormones that normally collect in the tissue of the terminal leader's tip. These ho moans will be redistributed to dormant buds that reside in the nodal axis where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk", below the cut. The new foliar output response will be quick (within 24 hrs., see photo below) if you have a healthy growing seedling and will be your future main colas - 4 instead of the usual 1:











Here's a photo of the same plant about 8 weeks into flowering. The plant is about 42" tall, has 4 main colas with an abundance of large, healthy fan leaves.











This is an indoor shot just prior to harvest showing the colas bulking up quite nicely. Notice how the weight of the heavy colas is naturally pulling them apart, which opens the plant up so that light can penetrate the interior of the canopy. This is the same principle used by fruit orchard managers who create an open vase profile for their trees in order to increase production. This profile also has a side benefit of providing good interior air movement which reduces fungal/rot pressures.







The plant after harvest showing the branching scaffold and dominant 4 main cola "trunks", opposing nodes one right above the other. Smaller secondary branches also provided good bud production. This plant yielded over 10 oz of cured bud. 







*~ Topping for 2 main colas ~*

Pinch out the seedling above the 1st true node to get 2 main colas:













Any questions, fire away.

Happy gardening,
Uncle Ben


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## Kingb420 (Jan 17, 2009)

+ rep, i cut mine @ the 4th true node, to get 2 tops but 4....damn


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## "SICC" (Jan 17, 2009)

Nice, where were you like a month ago lol, +REP man, this hill help alot of people, thanks for sharing with us!


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 17, 2009)

Kingb420 said:


> + rep, i cut mine @ the 4th true node, to get 2 tops but 4....damn


At? Is that below or above? The exact point is important reason why I spent a bit of time explaining the hormonal response thingie. If you topped above the 4th node, you'll get a bushy plant with the last output to occur at the lowest node, if at all. You will not get 2 or 4 main colas.

UB


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## OneHit (Jan 17, 2009)

UB What do you mean about the last output to occur at the lowest node? Im not sure what that output means.

Also, why is the reason we wait until there are 5-6 nodes, and just cut the second one? Arnt we throwing away alot of wasted plant material? Maybe a weeks worth of growth? Also, we could root that top, and do it all over again right?

Lastly, what would be the advantage of having 2 main colas rather than 4? Why not just go 4 colas all the time, doesn't that mean more production? That also means no more topping the plant anymore, right?


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## Mr.I (Jan 17, 2009)

if there are four main colas does that mean its longer flowering time? same?


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## OneHit (Jan 17, 2009)

No, flowering time is determined by the genetics of the plant


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## Mr.I (Jan 17, 2009)

OneHit said:


> No, flowering time is determined by the genetics of the plant


so you are saying no matter how big the plant is the flowering time stays the same?


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## OneHit (Jan 17, 2009)

Yes, Im pretty sure that is the case


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## Woomeister (Jan 17, 2009)

Sorry to disagree but flowering times can vary due to human intervention ie. lst-ing, incorrect temps, nutes etc.


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## stilltokin (Jan 17, 2009)

Thats some good info, i will surely look back into this when the time comes.
But for some reason I get the biggest yields if I just let the plant do her thing and not top or anything, it forms one main huge cola which is heavy and full of thc, not saying the thc would be affected by topping


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## "SICC" (Jan 17, 2009)

Yea but with topping you get more Colas, and you let the lower shoots come up as well, resulting in a bunch of bud sites, that, normally would have just been gettin side lighting, instead now, there being on the top of the plant with the cola's


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## lazypothead420 (Jan 17, 2009)

Do you have any closer pics of where u would top for only 2 cola's? Also is this method ideal for sog?


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## Mr.I (Jan 17, 2009)

i think you can adapt the plant to grow in sog with more colas. it will require more time thats all. so let's say if you have your babies flowering and you do clones at the same time, you would be able to arrange the timing in such a manner so that your clones (with two-four-six colas) will get ready for the flowering room right after veg by the time the flowering ladies are done. it also depends on the space you have, and the lighting you have. i have extreme side lighting so that would work really good for me to have four colas or even six, if you got one HID bulb there could be some shading issues later on, so its up to you. thats my opinion


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## lazypothead420 (Jan 17, 2009)

My idea is having 2 mothers (wanna grow 2 diff strains) a 25 site cloner and one big flowering room where i'll grow the 2 different strains. 1 strain a month older than the other, so i harvest every month. Planning on doin 20 plants all total. flowering right out of the cloner. I have a 4ft. L 7ft. H 2 1/2ft. D. grow space, should i go for 2 tops or 4? Also would it be better to have less plants with 4 tops or more plants with 2 tops?


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## winkdogg420 (Jan 17, 2009)

cut above the third get 8 colas???????????


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## Mr.I (Jan 17, 2009)

lazypothead420 said:


> My idea is having 2 mothers (wanna grow 2 diff strains) a 25 site cloner and one big flowering room where i'll grow the 2 different strains. 1 strain a month older than the other, so i harvest every month. Planning on doin 20 plants all total. flowering right out of the cloner. I have a 4ft. L 7ft. H 2 1/2ft. D. grow space, should i go for 2 tops or 4? Also would it be better to have less plants with 4 tops or more plants with 2 tops?


i'm new so, i would really like to hear some opinions from the experts on this question too. i just had my first grow, flowering into 34 days now. i have limited space like you do, and got choices of two different pot sizes. either to grow smaller pots and have twice as many plants, or grow bigger plants with more colas. from what i understand so far, it depends on the strain. i've read that some strains do really good when you top them some don't. i would imagine that most of the strains do much better with topping. 

really its up to you to experiment, you can never know what genetics your mother will have unless you go through selection process and choose the best mothers for your specific need. to choose a good mother is very important!

one thing i know is you would have bigger colas with bigger pot size with bigger plants. as of yield, you have to experiment and weight it out in the end.

as turnaround time, well, if you have smaller plants they "supposed" to grow faster with two colas. on the other hand bigger root mass with bigger pots wouldn't take much more time to grow to four colas. 
so its all about our own preferences and genetics we choose.

i hope this helps. have fun.


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## lazypothead420 (Jan 17, 2009)

Yeah i guess its experiment time.. lol. i might do a few with two and a cuple with 4 and see which one i like better.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 18, 2009)

OneHit said:


> UB What do you mean about the last output to occur at the lowest node? Im not sure what that output means.


That means that it is the least likely node to receive redirected ho moans. I'm also trying to explain plant hormonal responses - the ones at the top receive hormones that induce output the first. Top a plant, any kind of a plant, and it will induce dormant bud output starting with the top down.



> Also, why is the reason we wait until there are 5-6 nodes, and just cut the second one? Arnt we throwing away alot of wasted plant material? Maybe a weeks worth of growth? Also, we could root that top, and do it all over again right?


By allowing the plant to get a good start, which occurs with some leaf material from say......6 nodes (opposing leafsets) as opposed to 2, you're just giving it a better jump-start. You can use the cutting as a clone. 



> Lastly, what would be the advantage of having 2 main colas rather than 4? Why not just go 4 colas all the time, doesn't that mean more production? That also means no more topping the plant anymore, right?


No special advantage to 2 colas and that's what I usually do is top to get 4. But I was "playing games" regarding 2 versus 4 years ago jest fer fun. I decided to do quite a bit of experimentation on cannabis years ago, potting techniques, soil chemistry, pest control, etc. rather than taking someone's take on it. 4 main colas is my ditty. 

Post #1232 has some really good shots of the 4 main cola structure. 2 pages past are some more.
https://www.planetganja.com/highsociety/showthread.php?t=33786&page=62

Regards,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 18, 2009)

Mr.I said:


> if there are four main colas does that mean its longer flowering time? same?


Same because you're doing "the act" during veg. When you flip the switch, the four colas and other flowering sites will respond with the same normal flowering response based on phytochrome level changes.



lazypothead420 said:


> Do you have any closer pics of where u would top for only 2 cola's? Also is this method ideal for sog?


You could surely use it for SOG.



winkdogg420 said:


> cut above the third get 8 colas???????????


Yeah, but you'll get small colas and not necessarily dominant ones, just bushy as hell. Your typical main cola on the typical plant is the dominant branch or leader, just as a dominant leader (trunk) on a pecan or oak tree would be. Top (pinch out the top of that leader) and you have just redistributed the ho moans to points (dormant foliar buds) below the cut, which makes for multiple leaders.



Mr.I said:


> i'm new so, i would really like to hear some opinions from the experts on this question too. i just had my first grow, flowering into 34 days now. i have limited space like you do, and got choices of two different pot sizes. either to grow smaller pots and have twice as many plants, or grow bigger plants with more colas. from what i understand so far, it depends on the strain. i've read that some strains do really good when you top them some don't. i would imagine that most of the strains do much better with topping.


It's a matter of maintenance and personal preference. I do SOB (Sea of Bush) as I would rather focus my time on a few large plants as opposed to a bunch of smaller ones. Your call.

Plan your garden and execute your plan according to your desires and goals.



> one thing i know is you would have bigger colas with bigger pot size with bigger plants. as of yield, you have to experiment and weight it out in the end.


yeppers, that's what it's all about. 


Grow hard,
UB


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## winkdogg420 (Jan 18, 2009)

Excellent response. Plus rep for this tutorial!


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 18, 2009)

Thanks. 

Your most welcome!


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## HippieMan (Jan 19, 2009)

you could just FIMM it and get like 8 tops, more productive imo


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 19, 2009)

HippieMan said:


> you could just FIMM it and get like 8 tops, more productive imo


1. FIM is not reliable regarding predictable results,

2. No one seems to agree on just how to "FIM", and no one seems to understand why it does or doesn't do what it supposedly does. 

UB


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## born2killspam (Jan 19, 2009)

Not to mention that FIM apparently stands for "Fuck I Missed".. 
I've always found that the more viciously I topped a plant, the more vigorous growth I got from it, so I see why you suggest growing so many nodes first..
Do you have any info sources as to 'why' the 2/4/8.... scheme appears at nodes 1/2/3....? Is that guaranteed to be common across all genetics? I'm just pretty good at spotting patterns like that, and I never really noticed that predictability..


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## "SICC" (Jan 19, 2009)

Well when you topp the plants, you promote 2 main Colas, then all the inter nodes start growin up which results in all the "tops"


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## Mr.I (Jan 19, 2009)

good stuff, nice info.

if i grow four main colas, would i snip the rest of the secondary growth to give more juice into the main colas? like the shoots at the bottom of the shoots that are the main colas? would this make the main colas grow bigger?


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## Roseman (Jan 19, 2009)

Uncle BEN, GREAT THREAD, + REP for you! I have tried and tried to master this technique, and please look at my pic under my signature. I had 13 stalks, 9 major ones, on one plant, by topping it 6 times, twice at 2, 3 and 4 weeks of VEGGING.


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## Roseman (Jan 19, 2009)

I had 9 major stalks on this one:







it almost fell out of the tank.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 19, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Not to mention that FIM apparently stands for "Fuck I Missed"..


That's about the <cough>, size of it LOL.



> Do you have any info sources as to 'why' the 2/4/8.... scheme appears at nodes 1/2/3....?


Hmmmmmm, for some reason you're not understanding how the plant responds. I'll try again. Being that there are two leafsets at each node during veg, and there are dormant foliar buds in the axils of where the petiole attaches to the "trunk", then each node = 2 foliar outputs WHEN THE AUXINS ARE TRICKED INTO BEING REDISTRIBUTED TO THOSE SITES.  IOW, when you cut above the 2nd node, you'll get 4 outputs - 2 from the first node and 2 from the second. It's when you get above 3 or 4 that it becomes iffy regarding the outcome. You'll find the typical forum advice for topping is around the 7th node. Why, I don't know.



> Is that guaranteed to be common across all genetics?


Has been for me. I've done it on pure sativas like zamal (see photo) to indica-dom hybrids like Peak 19. This brings up a good point - I only concentrate on pure sativas or those with long internodes, using it as training tool to shorten plant height. A plant with multiple colas will be shorter than one with only 1 main cola.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 19, 2009)

Mr.I said:


> good stuff, nice info.
> 
> if i grow four main colas, would i snip the rest of the secondary growth to give more juice into the main colas?


No. That's like the old timers saying you should snip out the "suckers" on a tomato plant when in effect you're reducing production by removing the very thing that produces the buds - leaves.



> like the shoots at the bottom of the shoots that are the main colas? would this make the main colas grow bigger?


If green and capable of photosynthesis, then no, they will provide food for the plant, simple botany. Forget this voodoo "energy" stuff you hear so much about and stick to botany.

Based on a CO2 flag from the leaf, the plant knows when to discard it. IOW, when the CO2 processing almost ceases, the plant knows it is useless and will drop it. A healthy leaf is using quite a bit of CO2, an unhealthy one, almost none. 



Roseman said:


> Uncle BEN, GREAT THREAD, + REP for you! I have tried and tried to master this technique, and please look at my pic under my signature. I had 13 stalks, 9 major ones, on one plant, by topping it 6 times, twice at 2, 3 and 4 weeks of VEGGING.


Nice plant. Where on the plant did you do your first pinch? 

When you're read to try again, flag me down. BTW, see if you can find any semblance of a terminal leader nub on that zamal posted previously. 

UB


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## Roseman (Jan 19, 2009)

I grow in a very fast DWC system, with a underwater pump and a tube feeder in the tank. I get an inch a day of growth.

After I see the 2nd node, and at about 5 inches tall, I snip out the one top, taking the two baby leafs and as little of the stem as possible. I do it at 2, 3 and 4 weeks again, but not just the tops, I do every branch..


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## born2killspam (Jan 19, 2009)

Sorry, I get ya.. I just had FIM type notions on the brain.. The dimensions of the plant in your 3rd pic though are just so equal.. Are the colas in the center of the picture from the higher node??
Not all plants are that cooperative anyways..


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 19, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Are the colas in the center of the picture from the higher node?? Not all plants are that cooperative anyways..


Yep. It's pretty amazing how uniform those colas will grow in height. The colas that came from the higher nodes, node 2 are usually taller than those from node 1.

later.......


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## lazypothead420 (Jan 20, 2009)

Scince i plan on doing sog for my next grow, im planning on having a mother. If i used clones, how soon can i do this to get 2 tops? Also how long would i have to veg for after doing this technique? It seems like this might screw up my harvest every month idea i have going.. lol. Any info u have on this is greatfully appreciated!


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 20, 2009)

lazypothead420 said:


> Scince i plan on doing sog for my next grow, im planning on having a mother. If i used clones, how soon can i do this to get 2 tops?


As soon as you get at least 3 nodes and the cutting is well rooted.



> Also how long would i have to veg for after doing this technique?


There's no difference. How long you veg for is your call.

Good luck,
UB


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## lazypothead420 (Jan 20, 2009)

I'd actually rather not veg at all.. Can i do this??


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## born2killspam (Jan 20, 2009)

Thats called lollipopping.. Some plants handle it better than others, but you need to pack alot of them really densely to make it worth it.. A week of vegging will make a GIANT difference in the yeild of a single clone though..


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## lazypothead420 (Jan 20, 2009)

im going to have around 20 plants at one time in a 4x2 1/2 area is this even enough area for this method?


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## born2killspam (Jan 20, 2009)

Dunno, hunt around and ask somebody who uses the method.. This thread is about a very different way to grow..


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## doppie2 (Jan 21, 2009)

RESPECT.brov..rep+...just done ma b/w...when clonning her she hung like a washing in the dome..straightened her up lets see how she goes...n1 mods fore making this a sticky....


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 21, 2009)

lazypothead420 said:


> I'd actually rather not veg at all.. Can i do this??


Bud mass (production) is dependent on the amount of (healthy) foliage mass.



doppie2 said:


> RESPECT.brov..rep+...just done ma b/w...when clonning her she hung like a washing in the dome..straightened her up lets see how she goes...n1 mods fore making this a sticky....


Keep us posted with some pix, ya hear! 

UB


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## xxtoadxx (Jan 21, 2009)

sweet... my new lady should be getting 4 then right? i accidentally broke off her top node so it made it 2 but she was big. so maybe ill get 4... here she is at around beginning of week 4 i think?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 22, 2009)

xxtoadxx said:


> sweet... my new lady should be getting 4 then right?


No. Please review this thread.

Good luck,
UB


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## xxtoadxx (Jan 22, 2009)

at the 5th - 6th node only huh? it only has that hormone for that certain time?


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## OneHit (Jan 22, 2009)

Not even at the 5th or 6th node. Its the second node Im pretty sure.

UB. There are some clones Ive taken, and the nodes seems to have died off. The fan leaf there dried out, turned yellow, and was easily taken off. Do these still count as a full node? Or should I not count them when I want to top?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 22, 2009)

OneHit said:


> Not even at the 5th or 6th node. Its the second node Im pretty sure.
> 
> UB. There are some clones Ive taken, and the nodes seems to have died off. The fan leaf there dried out, turned yellow, and was easily taken off. Do these still count as a full node? Or should I not count them when I want to top?


No they don't count if the node dried up, doesn't have a thing to do with you losing the fan leaf at that node. 

Good luck,
UB


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## Mr.I (Jan 22, 2009)

""""Yeah, but you'll get small colas and not necessarily dominant ones, just bushy as hell. Your typical main cola on the typical plant is the dominant branch or leader, just as a dominant leader (trunk) on a pecan or oak tree would be. Top (pinch out the top of that leader) and you have just redistributed the ho moans to points (dormant foliar buds) below the cut, which makes for multiple leaders.""""

how about for outdoor plants, whats the maximum colas possible? will they be large or small colas? outside the root mass could be as large as it could be so lets say 16 colas could be made? or how would you trim and top the plant to make it produce lots?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 23, 2009)

Mr.I said:


> how about for outdoor plants, whats the maximum colas possible? will they be large or small colas?


As I said, depends on where you top and how the plant responds. You will get two foliar outputs from the node below the cut. Just do the math. A plant with many colas will put out small colas. 1, 2, or 4 colas on a finished plant will be large - your call.

I top indoors or out and have almost 100% certainity of how the plant will respond. Below are a series of photos showing an outdoor plant topped from start to finish, which gave me 4 large (sativa geno) colas. The first two shots are shortly after topping clearly showing the output at the node axis', the third was a side shot of the 4 main colas hanging to dry, the fourth was a field shot taken about 2 months prior to chop and the last shot is a close up of the (sativa structured) bud. The 5 gallon pot was treated with Griffin's Spin-out paint, a copper based root tip terminator, pot was sunk about 3" into the dirt. What I hoped would happen didn't, the Griffin's was too dominant - I wanted the roots to explore the native soil out of the drainholes which would have increased my production even more. As it was, I got quite a bit of pot out of this one.

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 23, 2009)

This is a better shot of the 4 main colas hanging to cure, sans the smaller side branches which I cured laying 'em out on hardware cloth. These colas were so heavy (and long) that they laid the plant over until I could stake it up. Of course sativa trunks/stems aren't very strong to begin with. I should have used a large tomato cage.

Tio


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## Mr.I (Jan 23, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> This is a better shot of the 4 main colas hanging to cure, sans the smaller side branches which I cured laying 'em out on hardware cloth. These colas were so heavy (and long) that they laid the plant over until I could stake it up. Of course sativa trunks/stems aren't very strong to begin with. I should have used a large tomato cage.
> 
> Tio


looks really leafy is it because its sativa?


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## born2killspam (Jan 23, 2009)

Sativa leaf can have quite a bit of thc, and sativa bud structure isn't dense/nuggy like indicas so trimming it is a way different ballgame..


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 23, 2009)

Mr.I said:


> looks really leafy is it because its sativa?


born2killspam is right. Mel Franks has shown in THC studies where stems can be every bit as potent as buds. The seed pimps have trained the masses into equating potency with crystal covered bud, nothing could be farther from the truth. In reality their ploys are there only for marketing. It's what inside the resin head that counts.

The small bud leaves are trichome covered and has a different calyx structure than your typical mutts. See the closeup photo. 

Good luck,
UB


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## born2killspam (Jan 23, 2009)

I get all my friends to save their shake/stems for me.. They're foolish nug snobs..


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## born2killspam (Jan 23, 2009)

If you try to trim a sativa bud clean/tight then you're going to be disapponted by whats left..
One point to consider is that THC is found only on surfaces, and leaflets have quite a bit of surface area.. (As does sativa bud in general)..


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 23, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> If you try to trim a sativa bud clean/tight then you're going to be disapponted by whats left..
> One point to consider is that THC is found only on surfaces, and leaflets have quite a bit of surface area.. (As does sativa bud in general)..


Excellent points, I see your hip to sativas. I got flamed, harassed and insulted by the punks at PG showing sativa bud in 2 gallon baggies, shots taken from 6' away which didn't show anything of course. Those PG MJ nerds don't have a clue, just suckas for pimps hawking sugar coated buds and snake oils.  This is what Uncle Ben's "hay" looks like up close:







With sativa, you trim off all fan leaves leaving only trichome covered single bud leaves and calyxes. Notice too that the calyxes are bigger than normal. My Zamal, O. haze, and Vietnamese dalat, all sativa, had the exact same bud structure.

Keep it real,
UB


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## born2killspam (Jan 23, 2009)

Oh yea, I like sativa.. I grew up on weed ancestored from bag-seed my dad had when he was younger.. Back before indoor growing, when the vast majority was shipped in from the tropics, and sold by the lid.. 
Sativas can be a hassle in so many ways, but its so much better smoke for most situations IMO.. I can understand why alot of younger ppl shy away from it though, not only the scaggle, but most sativa that you might come across in a random bag is brutally premature, and infact schwag..


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## Recluse420 (Jan 23, 2009)

Not to take away from your topping technique Ben but if anyone here has an interest in this they would love to hear about LST (Low stress training), all the benefits of topping but easier on the plant due to not having to cause it an harm or stress, the idea is that you bend over the plant once it's about 3 weeks old and tie it down which sends a signal to all the other branches telling them to take over vertical growth so as you keep tying them down you build a small bush that will produce WAY more than any topping technique will ever give you. Your lights will stay lower and hit more bud sites then raising the light as it grows...


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## born2killspam (Jan 23, 2009)

And there are many threads for discussing LST..


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## Mr.I (Jan 23, 2009)

how's the high from the sativas, honestly i think i never even tried something like that.


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## born2killspam (Jan 23, 2009)

It energizes you and makes you feel more alert/smarter kind of.. Its nothing like that heavy fog that indica casts over your brain..
When I smoke good sativa I want to go running, or climb trees etc..


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Oh yea, I like sativa.. I grew up on weed ancestored from bag-seed my dad had when he was younger.. Back before indoor growing, when the vast majority was shipped in from the tropics, and sold by the lid..


$8 -10/lid back in my days, 60's. 



> Sativas can be a hassle in so many ways, but its so much better smoke for most situations IMO.. I can understand why alot of younger ppl shy away from it though, not only the scaggle, but most sativa that you might come across in a random bag is brutally premature, and infact schwag..


I agree and I've grown my share of mutts, errrr <cough> _designer genetics_. For example, my signature photo signoff shows me standing behind this massive, rock hard/dense main cola about 6" across at its widest point with a bunch of dense smaller side colas, it was a Positronic Jack Herer. Great smoke, fruity but I like sativa pot better too. 









Recluse420 said:


> Not to take away from your topping technique Ben but if anyone here has an interest in this they would love to hear about LST (Low stress training), all the benefits of topping but easier on the plant due to not having to cause it an harm or stress.....


Not a problem friend, but what makes you think my topping approach is hard on (stresses) a plant? That's simply not true, quite the contrary. It's natural and the plant responds with new foliar output within 24 hours. You cut and don't fuss with it until harvest but since you brought it up, Low Stress Training is an oxymoron IMO. I'm not the one doing repetitive un-natural stuff to my ladies.......tieing 'em up with rubber bands, string and such. I have played games using dress ties and a brass headboard though.  



> the idea is that you bend over the plant once it's about 3 weeks old and tie it down which sends a signal to all the other branches telling them to take over vertical growth so as you keep tying them down you build a *small bush that will produce WAY more than any topping technique will ever give you.*


Uhhhhh, that's debatable, but whatever floats your boat. LST is just another technique to redistribute growth hormones. If you want alot of small budsites (_and have the garden footprint to accommodate sprawling plants_) then you do LST or top high on the plant. If you want 4 fat colas that can be every bit as bulked up as 1 (main) cola, then topping above the 2nd true node is a nice solution. 

Maintenance issues - LST is also a helluvalot more trouble regarding maintenance than making a simple snip above your 2nd node and being done with it. I will not be a slave to my plants, reason why I diss such "high tech" techniques like SCROG. 

Good luck,
UB


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## born2killspam (Jan 24, 2009)

Yea, bushing out a plant is all about cutting off the supply of auxins (which promote upward growth) that are created in the apex shoot..
LST accomplishes this by forcing the growing shoot downward so the hormones have an uphill climb that they can't very well overcome before travelling downwards..
What many ppl will consider the benefit of topping for 2/4 colas is the cola size.. LST typically gives you buds like you'd expects if you topped at the 6th/7th node as UB described..
Lastly, LST can be VERY HST for the grower if they aren't very experienced with the technique and are trying to manage a canopy with multiple plants..


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## 6wayswinger (Jan 25, 2009)

has any 1 lst,d and then topped a plant iv done this to a mother plant iv had plenty of cuttings from her and i think shill give me good bud so has any 1 els trained topped and budded a plant


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## merahoon (Jan 26, 2009)

So i have a question on where exactly you cut. Do you cut just underneath where the 3rd node forms, in between the 2nd and third, or just above the second? Also what would you suggest on when to cut? You said 5-6 six nodes but which is better? Or are you just saying when you have 5 nodes and the sixth is forming? I'm on my first grow and really don't want to screw this up, so I'm trying to make it perfect . Thanks!


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## born2killspam (Jan 26, 2009)

Exactly when doesn't really matter.. Nor does exactly where, but don't cut right at/into the node since thats where your new outputs are currently hiding.. (UB's pics clearly show he cuts nowhere near the actual node..)
Best time to do it I suppose would be shortly after a good watering when they're roughly that size..


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 26, 2009)

merahoon said:


> So i have a question on where exactly you cut. Do you cut just underneath where the 3rd node forms, in between the 2nd and third, or just above the second?


Yep. 








Like the photo shows, 1/2" above the node is fine, no big deal. 



> Also what would you suggest on when to cut? You said 5-6 six nodes but which is better?


Doesn't matter, the effect will be the same. If you want to root the cutting, then cut above the 2nd node leaving 3 nodes (leafsets) for your clone. IOW, wait until you have 5,6, or 7 nodes.



> Or are you just saying when you have 5 nodes and the sixth is forming? I'm on my first grow and really don't want to screw this up, so I'm trying to make it perfect . Thanks!


Again, it doesn't matter. What you want to do is to give the plant a good start, and sufficient foliage will insure that. Cut when you have 3 nodes if you want, but the plant will be stockier with a better developed root system if you wait a while. Does that make sense? 

There is nothing to screw up, unless the plant isn't healthy in the first place which is a totally different issue. This is one of the easiest, most simple drills you can do to train a plant to a different profile. Pinch that sucker off above the 2nd node with your fingernails and be done with it. Then sit back and watch. I know your apprehensive being a first time grower but there isn't any mystique about this. See my first photo on page 1 for a refresher.....or shoot me a photo of your plants and I'll opine. See how fresh the cut is and how fast the plant responded? The nub will quickly callous over and sometimes shrivel up and drop off like the finished Zamal sativa I posted.

Lood Guck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 26, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Exactly when doesn't really matter.. Nor does exactly where, but don't cut right at/into the node since thats where your new outputs are currently hiding.. (UB's pics clearly show he cuts nowhere near the actual node..)
> Best time to do it I suppose would be shortly after a good watering when they're roughly that size..


Ahhhhhh, I see you got me covered.  Gracias. I think folks try to "fim" by cutting thru the node.


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## born2killspam (Jan 26, 2009)

I had FIM on the brain when I saw your pics even though I read directly that wasn't the case.. (My mind wandered).. Its hard not to think FIM when you see the uniformity you have between the different nodal colas..
Cutting a developed node isn't even FIM though either.. FIM is about topping the very tip of the growing shoot (which contains more than one toppable terminating point)..
I don't know how lucky you'd need to be to successfully FIM new growth before its poked itself out of a developed node..


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 26, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> I had FIM on the brain when I saw your pics even though I read directly that wasn't the case.. (My mind wandered)..


I'm not sure anyone is in agreement on how to FIM or what it _reliability_ produces like you said. It's one of those "advanced" techniques you never can quite put your finger on.


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## born2killspam (Jan 26, 2009)

Reliability is so sketchy because the target is so small.. An unopened growing shoot contains the budlet that will form the next node within it.. So you've got 2 baby branches encasing 2 embryonic branches.. Cut them all perfectly and you get 4..
I've actually got 6 before (but 2 were retarded runts) and I've heard of as many as 8.. I don't know if that is due to embryonic embryonic budlets, or mangled redifferentiated tissue (kind of like how scarred up clone stems root better).. I do remember I FIM'd that one with my finger-nails though..


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Reliability is so sketchy because the target is so small..


I hear that.  It's another one of those cannabis forum "solutions" that carries more feelings than fact.


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## born2killspam (Jan 27, 2009)

I wouldn't say that.. The facts are there, but execution is really tricky to make it predictable.. If you screw up entirely, then you're just topping the plant as per your method (except FIM is usually done at a higher node, so they'll be weaker as you described)..
I was always proud when I got 4 uniform shoots from FIM.. Usually one or two will dominate drastically.. (The result of a less than ideal cut through the particular foliar outputs I assume)..


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## merahoon (Jan 27, 2009)

have you ever tried super cropping after topping acheiving 4 main branches? If you bent/pinched those four branches, wouldn't it increase your overall bud weight even more?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2009)

merahoon said:


> have you ever tried super cropping after topping acheiving 4 main branches? If you bent/pinched those four branches, wouldn't it increase your overall bud weight even more?


Not necessarily, plus I'm happy with my results. Do the experiment. Top 4 seedlings and take 2 and slowly train them (bend them over) to a prostrate position. Keep them in that position until harvest and draw your own conclusion. I think you'll see the same bud output as what I get cause it comes from the same node axis. 

Good luck,
UB


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## born2killspam (Jan 27, 2009)

You could supercrop or FIM the new branches it you like, but the beauty with UB's method is a concise, predictable, easy to manage format.. If you're good at arranging renegade growth, then knock yourself out..
Its also worth mentioning that genetics, and grow area are also a factor here.. UB's method leaves alot of room for adaptation after the fact since he chops it down so low, and ends up with multiple tops that can almost be considered single plants in a canopy situation..


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## merahoon (Jan 27, 2009)

The main benefit I would think is that you can keep an even canopy and let the light hit more spots. Then just cut out the bottom thats not getting light to further increase bud size. I'll give it a go though and see what happens. I've got like a month left in veggin though.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2009)

I do two harvests as a workaround plus I make sure that my plants have reflective panels ALWAYS adjacent to them, they are mobile and moved according to the garden footprint.

I harvest the heavy colas which is about 1/2 down from the top and then move the plant back under the lights to bulk up the airy lower buds. You'd be surprised as to how much more bud you can get doing this, but, you have to have good healthy leaves left at the bottom too, and most "flush" their plants ruining the very unit that produces the buds! Quite funny really.

UB


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## born2killspam (Jan 27, 2009)

I'll second the benefit of chopping the tops and letting the scraggle mature.. It is shockingly more worth it than I thought it would be..


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## merahoon (Jan 27, 2009)

Hmm thats very interesting. I have never heard of that before. Great idea!


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## OneHit (Jan 27, 2009)

UB, What do you mean when you say most flush to get rid of the unit of producing buds? You mean the nutrients?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 28, 2009)

OneHit said:


> UB, What do you mean when you say most flush to get rid of the unit of producing buds? You mean the nutrients?


I said, ".....and most "flush" their plants ruining the very unit that produces the buds!"

When you deprive your plant of nutrients (or use too much bloom food too often) you will induce leaf drop. You won't benefit from this secondary harvest if the plant doesn't have enough healthy leaves to produce or bulk lower buds.

UB


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## OneHit (Jan 28, 2009)

What about when you have PH problems? I seem to have crazy PH problems in my soil grow. When I PH the run off from the bottom of the pot, the PH is around 4.5. That was with fresh soil, no nutes and 7pH water going in. And I use a soiless soil, Promix. Ive since stopped really worrying about the PH, as they seem to be growing decently without me having to try to correct the problem


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## born2killspam (Jan 28, 2009)

You NEED to fix your pH.. What are you using for pH up? Plants often seem to thrive just before they succumb violoently to problems at the roots..
Also, what kind of nutes, and what exactly is your soil-less soil built from? Is it peat? If it is, that would explain alot..


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 28, 2009)

OneHit said:


> What about when you have PH problems? I seem to have crazy PH problems in my soil grow. When I PH the run off from the bottom of the pot, the PH is around 4.5. That was with fresh soil, no nutes and 7pH water going in. And I use a soiless soil, Promix. Ive since stopped really worrying about the PH, as they seem to be growing decently without me having to try to correct the problem


Sounds like the problem is with your pH meter. Promix has limestone in it to buffer the low pH of the peat. http://www.premierhort.com/eProMix/Gardening/fGardening.htm


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## OneHit (Jan 28, 2009)

I had thought that it might be the PH meter, but water PHed fine at 7, and its a newer meter. Ive only had it for a few months, and it hasnt been used too often. I use this particular bag of promix

Ive had this problem with my first grow too, and flushing didnt seem to fix the problem. So this time around, I stoped worrying about it, and just water with FF nutes every other watering.

As for the ph up, im not sure what brand, i Just got a bit off of ebay. It comes in powder form, and i just add it in water. Though i havnt used it this grow at all


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## born2killspam (Jan 28, 2009)

How old is the Pro-Mix? As peat gets older it becomes more acidic.. Lime in it will be proportioned to properly adjust newer soil (or soil that hasn't been wetted/weathered)..


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## merahoon (Jan 28, 2009)

born2killspam, I just want to praise you for the amount of knowledge you obtain to all the science that goes behind growing MJ. I've been seeing you around on various posts now that I recognize your name, and the things you say, blow my mind. I just read you math on an old co2 thread and had no idea wtf you were talking about lol. Someday I hope to be able to have that amount of knowledge to use in my grow room . Not tryin to kiss ass, just giving a simple compliment.


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## born2killspam (Jan 28, 2009)

MacGyver was a physics student remember..


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 28, 2009)

OneHit said:


> I had thought that it might be the PH meter, but water PHed fine at 7, and its a newer meter.


Calibrate before taking your readings with calibration solutions - 4.01 and 7.01. I buy a liter of each for about $14 total, has a shelf life of over a year. Store your electrode wet, tap water is fine, storage solution is better so the vendors say LOL. A tiny dab of cotton soaked in mineralized water in the cap is fine. Don't use distilled water in the cap to keep the electrode wet during storage. Apparently it screws up the electrode. Just don't let the electrode dry out during storage.



> Ive only had it for a few months, and it hasnt been used too often. I use this particular bag of promix
> 
> Ive had this problem with my first grow too, and flushing didnt seem to fix the problem. So this time around, I stoped worrying about it, and just water with FF nutes every other watering.


What is the NPK value of the FF nutes you're using?



> As for the ph up, im not sure what brand, i Just got a bit off of ebay. It comes in powder form, and i just add it in water. Though i havnt used it this grow at all


It's potassium hydroxide, not unlike lye, sodium hydroxide.

Premier soil products will be designed for a slight acidic value, I wouldn't mess with them if I was you.

UB


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## OneHit (Jan 29, 2009)

UB, The NPK value of the foxfarm nutes are .1 .3 .7 for big bloom, 2 4 8 for Tiger Bloom, and 6 4 4 for Grow Big. Growbig is the veg fert I used. How often do you calibrate your ph meter? I do have the calibration solution that came with the meter. Ill give that a try today and see if its right.


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## doppie2 (Jan 29, 2009)

update...ma clone that was hinging like a washing has roots...getting camira.tommorw.7mp..will post pics then..quick quistion uncle ben..how soon can a cut the clone @ 2 nods....got 6 w/w clones with 6 nods so will do them your way ben...tommrow..will take pics before a cut....


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## born2killspam (Jan 29, 2009)

doppie2 said:


> update...ma clone that was hinging like a washing has roots...getting camira.tommorw.7mp..will post pics then..quick quistion uncle ben..how soon can a cut the clone @ 2 nods....got 6 w/w clones with 6 nods so will do them your way ben...tommrow..will take pics before a cut....


Gleep manok banoon??


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## doppie2 (Jan 29, 2009)

doppie2 said:


> RESPECT.brov..rep+...just done ma b/w...when clonning her she hung like a washing in the dome..straightened her up lets see how she goes...n1 mods fore making this a sticky....


 


that make it any easyer fore you m8.....


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## OneHit (Jan 29, 2009)

LOL Born2kill. It took alot of effort to read through and understand that post. But Doppie, if you read the first post by UB. He says cut when its at 5-6 nodes


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## doppie2 (Jan 29, 2009)

well y u think a got name like this fore...dohhhhhhhh..lol....chill guys....


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## born2killspam (Jan 29, 2009)

Now I know how inner city kids must feel reading Shakespeare..


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## Greenisgold (Jan 29, 2009)

Is this the UB from the old OG days? If so, you were so damn helpfull to me years ago when I started growing indoors. You turned me on and so many others to the benefit of alfalfa meal. I doubt if you remember, but you had a great tutorial on germinating seeds and such. I ordered some seeds from a company called aloha and found out that they stole your technique and posted it on their website. Anyhoo, I use to love your threads/posts as you had no problem telling it like it is. I never flush and your the main reason why I don't.
If this is not the UB that I remember, then ooooops.
Peace out


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## merahoon (Jan 29, 2009)

Hey guys got another question for ya. Due to some news I got the other night, I need to flip the lights on my plants in a week. I'm going to post some pics of them of how their lookin this morning. The plants are pretty small but I was wondering whether I could still top them to at least get to main kolas. Or would it be to early, or not enough time to increase yield. Like I said, I'll have a week recovery period for whatever I do. Please give me a hand and let me know if there is anything I can do to increase my yield at this point or just to let them grow. Thank you ahead of time. 

Oh and just something funny... that biggest plant in the middle... I found that bagseed on the floor as I was planting the seeds I got from Attitude. Lucky find i guess


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## born2killspam (Jan 29, 2009)

I don't think flipping seedlings that early is the best approach at all, but some ppl do 12/12 from seed.. Keep an eye out for signs of pollen sacs..


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 29, 2009)

OneHit said:


> UB, The NPK value of the foxfarm nutes are .1 .3 .7 for big bloom, 2 4 8 for Tiger Bloom, and 6 4 4 for Grow Big. Growbig is the veg fert I used. How often do you calibrate your ph meter? I do have the calibration solution that came with the meter. Ill give that a try today and see if its right.


The GrowBig and Tiger Bloom sound like good choices, respectively. 

I calibrate before each new test.....just the neurotic bozo in me. 



Greenisgold said:


> Is this the UB from the old OG days?


At your service. 



> If so, you were so damn helpfull to me years ago when I started growing indoors. You turned me on and so many others to the benefit of alfalfa meal. I doubt if you remember, but you had a great tutorial on germinating seeds and such.


Great, glad I was of help. Yeah, I remember well, nice to see ya. You'd be surprised how many of those posts I archived. Got too damn tired of repeating myself. 



> I ordered some seeds from a company called aloha and found out that they stole your technique and posted it on their website.


Yeah, I saw that. Let's put it this way regarding germinating a seed, Bounty and I don't get along. 

You think that's bad, you don't know how many lowlife's have stole my dittys over the years, stripped the credits trying to pass it off as their own, even here. Check a few out, they're a hoot. I got so pissed at one site they banned me, hah!

http://forum.grasscity.com/general-indoor-growing/215941-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-enhance-flowering.html

"Pot God" my ass. Guess that guy never read the Ten Commandments - "thou shall not steal." Lifting text is bad enough, but I've also caught a few stealing my photos. Oh well, such is the internet, and such are some people's character.

Senior mod here did good by me on this one:
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html



> Anyhoo, I use to love your threads/posts as you had no problem telling it like it is.


If you only knew how many times that got me censored (banned).  Oh well......got mah principles ya know.



> I never flush and your the main reason why I don't.
> If this is not the UB that I remember, then ooooops.
> Peace out


Good. Ya keep them leaves in a healthy condition as long as you can. cya!



merahoon said:


> Hey guys got another question for ya. Due to some news I got the other night, I need to flip the lights on my plants in a week. I'm going to post some pics of them of how their lookin this morning. The plants are pretty small but I was wondering whether I could still top them to at least get to main kolas.


I wouldn't bother. But, if you must, try topping a few to see what happens so you get a feel for it. Since I mainly grow sativas and they tend to get pretty leggie, I "developed" this to combat the stretch. 



> Or would it be to early, or not enough time to increase yield.


It's a yield issue. You don't have much foliage to get the yield you probably seek. Without healthy foliage and alot of it, ya won't get much yield.



> Like I said, I'll have a week recovery period for whatever I do.


"Recovery" is not the issue, foliage production is. 



> Oh and just something funny... that biggest plant in the middle... I found that bagseed on the floor as I was planting the seeds I got from Attitude. Lucky find i guess


That seed staring at you from the bottom of the bag (floor in your case) may just be the next Haze. 

UB


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## merahoon (Jan 29, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> I don't think flipping seedlings that early is the best approach at all, but some ppl do 12/12 from seed.. Keep an eye out for signs of pollen sacs..


Luckily I was awarded with one extra month. I was devistated thinking I had to flip those so soon. So now I'm going to flip the lights feb. 28th or March 1st. Now I get to experiment


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## born2killspam (Jan 29, 2009)

That should be right around the perfect time.. When the nodal growth go to alternating branches, rather than opposing, you'll start to see little preflowers at the nodes.. Thats the marker for sexual maturity..


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## BLUNTED4REAL (Jan 29, 2009)

Hey UB ive read a lot of your stuff and youve helped a lot your like a damn guru to growing and its sad to see so many people out there who try to pass your work off as theirs, ive come across quite a few threads that i remember you doin that other people have claimed as their own

anyways i was wonderin if you could help me out with a few plant issues if you dont mind, i can either post here or send a pm and i can get pics tonight or tomorrow, thanks a lot for all the help


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## merahoon (Jan 29, 2009)

So since I have more time to veg, do you think any of my plants are ready for topping? Pictures are on page 10.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 29, 2009)

BLUNTED4REAL said:


> anyways i was wonderin if you could help me out with a few plant issues if you dont mind, i can either post here or send a pm and i can get pics tonight or tomorrow, thanks a lot for all the help


Recommend you start a new thread. I and other good folk will be glad to chime in, just send us/me a link to your thread.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 29, 2009)

merahoon said:


> So since I have more time to veg, do you think any of my plants are ready for topping? Pictures are on page 10.


They may be ready for topping, not that I think it would be of any benefit based on the phenotype I'm picking up on in those shots. They are not close to being ready for flowering so you have lots of time for veg. You have pot sizes big enough to support 3' tall plants before going to 12/12 and well capable of finishing out your faves.

Top some, leave others alone - learn.

Best,
UB


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## DaveTheNewbie (Jan 29, 2009)

Im a big fan of topping for 4 colas, but i double top, aka top then top those 2 branches at the next node.

Here are my results :


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 30, 2009)

DaveTheNewbie said:


> Im a big fan of topping for 4 colas, but i double top, aka top then top those 2 branches at the next node.
> 
> Here are my results :


Very nice! Those have a strong sativa profile to the leaf. What are they?


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## DaveTheNewbie (Jan 30, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Very nice! Those have a strong sativa profile to the leaf. What are they?


random bagseed from a mate that sure feels like pure sativa.
its probabally some imbred aussie outback gear with no name, but i really have no idea.
its not super strong, but its super trippy sativa like.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 30, 2009)

DaveTheNewbie said:


> its not super strong, but its super trippy sativa like.


My kind of weed. I like it trippy and weird.


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## born2killspam (Jan 30, 2009)

I dunno quite how to take that.. I've never had a sativa smash my brain sativa style before I've exhaled.. Sativa tends to creep up on me, but it really creeps.. I can't comprehend a really trippy, yet not so potent weed..


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## DaveTheNewbie (Jan 31, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> I dunno quite how to take that.. I've never had a sativa smash my brain sativa style before I've exhaled.. Sativa tends to creep up on me, but it really creeps.. I can't comprehend a really trippy, yet not so potent weed..


thats my point.
you smoke it and nothing happens ... and then nothing happens ... and then you think its shit weed and then things get a bit ... different, and then your giggling at the ferris wheel in your lounge room


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## born2killspam (Jan 31, 2009)

Yea keep those genetics safe.. Thats a good sativa..


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 31, 2009)

DaveTheNewbie said:


> thats my point.
> you smoke it and nothing happens ... and then nothing happens ... and then you think its shit weed and then things get a bit ... different, and then your giggling at the ferris wheel in your lounge room


You're right guys. Most _great_ sativa IS creeper weed. It sneaks up on you.


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## doppie2 (Jan 31, 2009)

photo of my topped b/w..and clone..and a few of my w/w..5 weeks in two flowering


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## SCORPIO13 (Feb 5, 2009)

Uncle Ben and born2killspam. i have had a ton of questions regarding topping and this thread has more than helped me out thanks to your info. I have some seeds germinating now and I will be posting pics of them once i top them. Thanks again for all your info.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 5, 2009)

doppie2 said:


> photo of my topped b/w..and clone..and a few of my w/w..5 weeks in two flowering


Lookin' good guy. Keep dem leaves happy.



SCORPIO13 said:


> Uncle Ben and born2killspam. i have had a ton of questions regarding topping and this thread has more than helped me out thanks to your info. I have some seeds germinating now and I will be posting pics of them once i top them. Thanks again for all your info.


Lookin' forward to checking out your progress.

UB


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## jbo (Feb 6, 2009)

Hey Ub when is to late to top? Ive got a deisel goo mix that i was going to flip the switch on pretty soon (3 days). They are about 24 to 28 inches tall. The cola sites are beatiful! Is it to late on this one? I have no problem vegging for another couple weeks if need be. Thanks


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 6, 2009)

jbo said:


> Hey Ub when is to late to top? Ive got a deisel goo mix that i was going to flip the switch on pretty soon (3 days). They are about 24 to 28 inches tall. The cola sites are beatiful! Is it to late on this one? I have no problem vegging for another couple weeks if need be. Thanks


Needless to say, it's way too late to top to get 4 main colas, it's never too late to top if you need to cut back the height. Done it a bunch during flowering to sativas like Vietnamese Dalat.


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## jbo (Feb 6, 2009)

Thats what i figured, thanks. My room is 9ft tall so not really worried about height issues, just tryin to up the yield as usual. So far with this grow all i've do is take some clones and trim a little down low. I tell you what these are some pretty girls. My last grow i did the lst thing to the side of the bucket, bending all the stuff looking for light down. It worked out so so but i wasnt all that impressed so i just let these girls go by themselves. Sometimes less is more huh? Hey when is the "ideal" time to top?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 7, 2009)

jbo said:


> Hey when is the "ideal" time to top?


Please read the thread. Good luck with your faves!


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## DaveTheNewbie (Feb 7, 2009)

jbo said:


> Sometimes less is more huh?


when pruning this is often the case


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## mrduke (Feb 7, 2009)

is it ever too late for this ( i know you dont wantto cut donw to the second node when it 4 feet tall) my clones are at about the 5-6 node, but i just trans planted themto a hydro set up from under cfl's light. I dont want to addany more stress but surely want more bud. Ifi waited aweek til they're established in there new home would it be OK? thanks UB


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## born2killspam (Feb 7, 2009)

If you chop a ton off it may take the plant a bit longer to reorient itself, but if taken care of it will have some serious vigor potential..
I don't know if there is an absolute line you shouldn't cross, but I've seen 4' outdoor plants get taken down that far and still come back bushier..
Coolest thing I've ever seen along those lines was a few plants that got rabbited early season, toppled and were laying on wet ground.. The grower was an old hippy man who never interfered with nature, so he let them go, and broken shoots rooted into the ground so the main stalks had multple root systems, and secondary branches grew upward like LST.. He figures that gave him more yield than just letting them grow to the sky.. (He doesn't dig, top, water, fertilize, anything.. He just picks a good spot and sticks seeds in the ground..)


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## GreenphoeniX (Feb 7, 2009)

Just thought I'd add this: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/110676-greenx-how-tos-how-top.html

Topping can produce some pretty kick ass results when you know what you're doing!


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 7, 2009)

mrduke said:


> is it ever too late for this ( i know you dont wantto cut donw to the second node when it 4 feet tall) my clones are at about the 5-6 node, but i just trans planted themto a hydro set up from under cfl's light. I dont want to addany more stress but surely want more bud. Ifi waited aweek til they're established in there new home would it be OK? thanks UB


It'll be OK, most likely, but you may or may not get the results that I've laid out.

Have fun,
Tio


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 7, 2009)

Off topic, but loads of fun. Load this page and use the slider at the bottom, moving it to the right. Continue to the end or as much in the trip as you want to go. You'll need broadband, or if dial-up, it's time to hit the "go" bottom, head for the kitchen and make some majic cookies.

http://www.adobecards.com/

Enjoy,
UB


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## BWeezy (Feb 9, 2009)

do you count nodes from the botom or top of the plant


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## bigdaddycatfish (Feb 9, 2009)

so all you have to do is top the plant 1


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## bigdaddycatfish (Feb 9, 2009)

so all you would have to do is top the plant 1 time & you will get 4 cola's? am i right?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 9, 2009)

bigdaddycatfish said:


> so all you would have to do is top the plant 1 time & you will get 4 cola's? am i right?


Yes

Fellas, please start at page one. I'm not here to repeat myself. 

Gracias,
Tio


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## "SICC" (Feb 9, 2009)

Just had to stop by and say this is a great thread, when i see some one lookin how to topp, this is where i send them, thanks again man, much love


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 10, 2009)

[quote="SICC";2058547]Just had to stop by and say this is a great thread, when i see some one lookin how to topp, this is where i send them, thanks again man, much love [/quote]

Thanks for stopping by, appreciate the feedback!


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## livesoul (Feb 10, 2009)

hey UB, read the whole thread. Great thanks, actually found it through the other thread title Topping and FIMing techniques, or something to that effect. Thanks for clearing up the nonsense. Silly question, but i'm not quite clear. You top at the 2nd node and the 2 branchs underneath become your two main colas. Where is the following cut made to get 4 colas? Off of the two new main colas? and if so do we wait another 5-6 nodes up on each branch before topping?


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## born2killspam (Feb 10, 2009)

Your 4 are comprised of 2 new shoots at each the 1st and second nodes.. One cut stimulates both remaining nodes to shoot out 2 new branches..


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 10, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Your 4 are comprised of 2 new shoots at each the 1st and second nodes.. One cut stimulates both remaining nodes to shoot out 2 new branches..


Thanks.

livesoul, I never said you top at the 2nd node. I said you top ABOVE the 2nd node for 4 main colas or top ABOVE the first node to get 2 main colas.

Best,
Ben


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## livesoul (Feb 10, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Thanks.
> 
> livesoul, I never said you top at the 2nd node. I said you top ABOVE the 2nd node for 4 main colas or top ABOVE the first node to get 2 main colas.
> 
> ...



Ah got it, my mistake. Makes total sense!!


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## Greenisgold (Feb 11, 2009)

Hey UB,
What are u feeding your plants these days? I remember you were a big Peters, do you still use their salts? What else are you using besides alfalfa?
Thanks


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 11, 2009)

Greenisgold said:


> Hey UB,
> What are u feeding your plants these days? I remember you were a big Peters, do you still use their salts? What else are you using besides alfalfa?
> Thanks


Howdy!

I literally use whatever is on the shelf. Cannabis is not picky unless you use the wrong ratios at the wrong time. Now that I've gone commercial regarding a niche farming biz I buy 25 lb. bags of very high quality, SUPER soluble plant food and inject it into my irrigation system. Peters is good so is Plant Gro, so is Dyna-Gro, etc. 

I have had tremendous success with a slow release encapsulated food such as Osmocote with micros. I use another brand called Polyon which is custom blended for distributors, but is basically the same, always something around a 9-3-6 ratio with micros. You'll see it sometimes in commercial potting mixes like Schultz or Miracle Grow, looks like little bluish green pellets. Wonderful stuff.

Can't beat adding a bit of blood and bone meal to your potting soil too.


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## born2killspam (Feb 11, 2009)

What is your opinion on MG?? I've used alot of consumer salts, and MG always seems to start off !great! (at a fraction of a dosage), but seems to throw things out of proportion as time goes on, and locks out micros.. (And I had decent pH, and wasn't applying them anywhere near full strength).. Peter's, Plant-Prod, and Shultz's were more managable..


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 11, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> What is your opinion on MG?? I've used alot of consumer salts, and MG always seems to start off !great! (at a fraction of a dosage), but seems to throw things out of proportion as time goes on, and locks out micros.. (And I had decent pH, and wasn't applying them anywhere near full strength).. Peter's, Plant-Prod, and Shultz's were more managable..


I have read comments in orchid forums that MG has stuff in it that will eventually coat the sides of a clay pot, seen it myself but only with alot of use which may be true with any food. If you kick up the organics like the meals, compost, alfalfa meal.....you can almost get by with NO foods, only minor tweaks.

Here's a great guide to Scott's, who took over most of the Peters products. http://www.scottspro.com/products/fertilizers/peters_pro.cfm


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## born2killspam (Feb 11, 2009)

Yea I like my compost/organics.. I'm not an organic nazi though.. I have no problem having salts in there so long as they're compatible, but I like the organics to complete the balanced diet with the plethora of compounds..
IMO salts are like Cheerios.. "Part of a balanced breakfast"..


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## born2killspam (Feb 11, 2009)

Thanks for that link btw.. Hunting down that data is often tougher than it should be..


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## merahoon (Feb 11, 2009)

Hey UB,
Just thought I should stop by and post my first experience with topping after reading your thread. This is my first indoor grow and even though you explained topping well, I didn't completely understand EXACTLY how its done so I just went ahead and tried out different things like you suggested. 

I cut my plants at various nodes to see how the plant responded. Keep in mind, all of my plants had 5-6 nodes and some with the 7th barely forming. I have one bagseed that I FIM'ed at the incoming 4th node and topped at the sixth node after the new growth. And now, I have between 6+ tops on that plant. All of my Sativas I topped above the second node. I cut above the second node once on one of my indicas but it hurt me to see how much I was cutting off. After that, I cut above the third node (my fav) which seems to have given me 6 new tops? Then I cute above the fourth node and it gave me two new tops plus making the plant more bushy. All the cuts seem to be beneficial but I would have to say I like cutting above the third node the best. We see what the end results turn out like. Hopefully the ones I cute are females...

The rest of my plants I experimented with different FIM cuts to see if I could pin point where the cut is supposed to be. A lot of weird but good things happened with the FIM which I'm not going to mention cause this is a topping thread. Anyhow, here are some pics.

PS. I tried cutting at different parts on the stem inbetween nodes to see if it affects the response. I couldn't quite notice anything but I don't think I epxerimented with enough plants. Do you think it makes a difference? I also noticed the stems creating knots at the new main branches... what is that?


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## born2killspam (Feb 11, 2009)

+rep for concise experimentation merahoon.. Can you outline your strains/breeders (or are they all bagseed)? Some strains/phenos top/fim ALOT better than others, it would be sweet to get some kind of record going since alot of true-breeding strains produce nearly identical offspring these days..


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## merahoon (Feb 11, 2009)

Thank you very much. I have ten indicas which are called Sandstorm from Cannabiogen. They are 100% indica, mother is from the Chitral Kush region and father was from Arabene, Morroco. The one plant with 6+ tops is a bagseed I found on my floor while I was about to start my other seedlings!! How ironic lol. I have 3 Power Skunk that I got with the 10 Sandstorm. Attitude was giving away 5 free power skunk seeds and 3 of them sprouted. I don't know if you saw the four lil guys, but those are white rhino bagseed. They JUST entered the vegetative phase.. i think. I hope I answered your question. If not, let me know


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## born2killspam (Feb 11, 2009)

Good enough for now until results are obvious, then it would be nice to know what is what in the pics..

Edit: I love it when ppl pay attention to the lineage of their strains.. I'm always looking for info on the family trees of recent crosses.. I prefer to boil them down to the original breeding stock crosses if possible.. Some breeders just bastardize things.. There are some WW for sale out there that don't trace back to Indian/Brasilian at all, yet the unscruplulous breeder labels it WW because it got him really baked..


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## merahoon (Feb 11, 2009)

Yeah I agree. I personally like to try all the new crosses and what not just to try different flavors and to get different highs or mixed highs. I don't like how peolpe just put a name on something like you said. Thats just stupid. If a strain is made, it should show its lineage and be called something similar to what it came from. UB I'm not highjacking your thread just going to add something funny to it. This link is to Katt Williams sketch on weed. In his sketch he talks about people random names on their weed. Take seven minutes of your time to watch it if you haven't seen it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93jQI_6G5Cw


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 11, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Yea I like my compost/organics.. I'm not an organic nazi though.. I have no problem having salts in there so long as they're compatible, but I like the organics to complete the balanced diet with the plethora of compounds..
> IMO salts are like Cheerios.. "Part of a balanced breakfast"..


Ditto, I am not an organic purist. Those type of cultists are really disappointed when I tell them I believe in organics, but I am also willing to find a balance with a shot of malathion or Peters if it insures my success.

"They" don't like to hear that.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 11, 2009)

merahoon said:


> Yeah I agree. I personally like to try all the new crosses and what not just to try different flavors and to get different highs or mixed highs. I don't like how peolpe just put a name on something like you said. Thats just stupid. If a strain is made, it should show its lineage and be called something similar to what it came from. UB I'm not highjacking your thread just going to add something funny to it. This link is to Katt Williams sketch on weed. In his sketch he talks about people random names on their weed. Take seven minutes of your time to watch it if you haven't seen it.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93jQI_6G5Cw


Thanks for the link! Funny stuff!

I guffaw every time I hear of a "new strain". Someone mentions "madonna", lifesaver, deepchunk, super this and super that and I just shake my head.


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## born2killspam (Feb 11, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Ditto, I am not an organic purist. Those type of cultists are really disappointed when I tell them I believe in organics, but I am also willing to find a balance with a shot of malathion or Peters if it insures my success.
> 
> "They" don't like to hear that.


Alot of ppl are blind to the fact that organics contain/produce the same scary sounding chemicals we're adding in measured proportions.. (Actually organics can contain some REALLY scary trace compounds, but its all good ) Too many ppl think that plants suck complex organic molecules/matter all the way up to the apex.. A common example is how ppl expect supplimenting with molasses/fruit, will make the bud carry those characteristic flavours.. They fail to realize that they merely improved their soil ecosystem to make available more of those scary chemicals at a time when the plant can really use them, and happy plants produce the sweetest buds..
Pure organics buffer mistakes really well, so you really gotta screw up bad to go downhill fast.. Being able to manage salts is a sign of soil/need understanding..


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 11, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Alot of ppl are blind to the fact that organics contain/produce the same scary sounding chemicals we're adding in measured proportions.. (Actually organics can contain some REALLY scary trace compounds, but its all good )


Yep. Can't have uptake without chemicals, salts. I have been banned from cannabis sites run by organic zealots because I would state the same thing. Twas Blasphemy it twas. Even had a thread closed down one time because I recommended malathion for insect control. Site was The Tropical Cabana. There are some pretty wacked out cannabis forums out there.



> Too many ppl think that plants suck complex organic molecules/matter all the way up to the apex.. A common example is how ppl expect supplimenting with molasses/fruit, will make the bud carry those characteristic flavours.. They fail to realize that they merely improved their soil ecosystem to make available more of those scary chemicals at a time when the plant can really use them, and happy plants produce the sweetest buds..


Yep. It is my understanding that those type molecules are too big to transfer across the root epidermal gradient anyway. It's all about selling snake oils and rocket fuels to "those that want to believe". I have used molasses under several conditions and seen no improvement. Want to get a real grasp of soil science which includes non-conventional soil additives? Call up Dr. Mark McFarland at Texas a&M. He'll set the record straight. Like he said one time in a seminar I attended, "wanna know what happens to those microbes you pour out of the bottle once they hit the ground? The natives just eat them suckas." Check this out hombre. It's a real eye opener: https://www.planetganja.com/highsociety/showthread.php?p=1106116#post1106116



> Pure organics buffer mistakes really well, so you really gotta screw up bad to go downhill fast.. Being able to manage salts is a sign of soil/need understanding..


Yep


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## born2killspam (Feb 11, 2009)

If you saw no benefit from adding molasses then your soil must be pretty carb loaded naturally already.. What all do you compost? Are you selective, or gung-ho??
Molasses/carb-loading is about feeding the soil microbes (yeasts, bacteria, mychorrizae, et al).. It energizes them to work for the plant, it doesn't do much for the plant directly at all.. 
There is a symbiotic relationship that has formed over the ages.. Plants will actually dump carbs they produce into the soil (presumably because they benefit from microbe activity they facilitate).. But in most annuals their reserves apparently tend to deplete around early fall.. Perhaps thats why many on these forums have adopted to starting molasses in the later stages only.. But regardless, nature is cool..
Another snake-oil I cling to is that fermenting boost buckets are more effective than at first glance because of the ethane, and other organic compounds they evolve with the CO2.. I swear the side of my table nearest the boost bucket finished a bit earlier each and every time regardless where I put it..
(Don't get me wrong, I'm not just fermenting for the gases.. I'm as much into brewing/distilling as I am growing..)
You won't benefit from carb-loading a hydroponic grow though unless you're feeding/supplimenting with fish & bacteria.. Not many ppl do that though.. I played around with it in university.. I had a drip table with one chemical res (DNF nutes), and one res with goldfish and a bacteria product designed to accelerate waste breakdown.. Twas fun, worked nicely.. But goldfish probably have a bounty on my head for the near genocide.. 
And a while back I read that one (actually quite complex) carb was discovered to travel upwards directly, but thats the exception that proves the rule.. I can't remember now though dangit.. Gonna have to relook it up..



> Yep. Can't have uptake without chemicals, salts. I have been banned from cannabis sites run by organic zealots because I would state the same thing. Twas Blasphemy it twas. Even had a thread closed down one time because I recommended malathion for insect control. Site was The Tropical Cabana. There are some pretty wacked out cannabis forums out there.


Thats like banning Feynman from a physics forum.. I read pretty much everything you wrote at overgrow.. I never posted there though, my policy is if I'm actively growing I don't discuss it.. And I was going through school on a green scholarship at the time.. Now there are kids at that 'no can do' age in the house..


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 12, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> If you saw no benefit from adding molasses then your soil must be pretty carb loaded naturally already.. What all do you compost? Are you selective, or gung-ho??


I'm not currently composting for indoor mixes but in the past have used mostly leaves, grass clippings, kitchen scraps and manure if I can get it for the N. If not, then I add some ammonium sulfate to the pile. I do have a large pile of horse manure with bedding (stable) material (shredded wood from a lumber mill). That goes into outdoor plantings though as I don't turn it. It would require using my front end loader on my tractor and I'm just too lazy plus we can't seem to get a calm day around here. I just planted a couple of very high quality olive trees and before they went in I dumped 2 bucket loads of horse manure over the general location and then fractured the soil to a depth of about 24" with a chisel on a tractor 3 point which worked some of it in down deep. My cuz then tilled the area to a fine brown texture with a big ass tiller. Is that treatment gonna grow some trees or what?!  If you use peat moss and a little compost in your potting mix, that's all you need other than a few NPK tweaks.

I've been wanting to play with mychorrizae, just haven't got around to it. I'll use a control group to see what happens.



> Molasses/carb-loading is about feeding the soil microbes (yeasts, bacteria, mychorrizae, et al).. It energizes them to work for the plant, it doesn't do much for the plant directly at all..
> There is a symbiotic relationship that has formed over the ages.. Plants will actually dump carbs they produce into the soil (presumably because they benefit from microbe activity they facilitate).. But in most annuals their reserves apparently tend to deplete around early fall.. Perhaps thats why many on these forums have adopted to starting molasses in the later stages only.. But regardless, nature is cool..
> Another snake-oil I cling to is that fermenting boost buckets are more effective than at first glance because of the ethane, and other organic compounds they evolve with the CO2.. I swear the side of my table nearest the boost bucket finished a bit earlier each and every time regardless where I put it..
> (Don't get me wrong, I'm not just fermenting for the gases.. I'm as much into brewing/distilling as I am growing..)


Hey, can't beat dem side products. 



> You won't benefit from carb-loading a hydroponic grow though unless you're feeding/supplimenting with fish & bacteria.. Not many ppl do that though.. I played around with it in university.. I had a drip table with one chemical res (DNF nutes), and one res with goldfish and a bacteria product designed to accelerate waste breakdown.. Twas fun, worked nicely.. But goldfish probably have a bounty on my head for the near genocide..


Sounds about as bad as me putting my worm farm in a small bathroom where I was brewing beer. I asphixated those poor creatures.



> And a while back I read that one (actually quite complex) carb was discovered to travel upwards directly, but thats the exception that proves the rule.. I can't remember now though dangit.. Gonna have to relook it up..


I'd like to see some studies on that. It is my opinion that carbo molecules are too large to move thru the root's epidermal gradient, either way.



> Thats like banning Feynman from a physics forum.. I read pretty much everything you wrote at overgrow.. I never posted there though, my policy is if I'm actively growing I don't discuss it.. And I was going through school on a green scholarship at the time.. Now there are kids at that 'no can do' age in the house..


Very cool! Glad to have you around,
Tio


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## born2killspam (Feb 12, 2009)

Carb-loading will only help if your soil is deficient.. If its not, then adding more is kind of like eating dessert after Thanksgiving dinner..
If you've got a strong mychorrizae colony, then carbs are even more important.. Mychorrizae are a special group of fungus to certain plants.. They literally grow into the root, and their colony adds a tons of surface area equivalency.. 
So with a strong colony, a good portion of your root system is actually fungus, and its going to want carbs to eat and stay strong..
Non-mychorrizial microbes merely break stuff down, so as long as that job gets done, all is good, but if the fungi that have taken residence in the roots are joined at the hip with the plants, so you gotta keep them strong, or lose alot of root vigour..
I saw one experiment where they grew corn in specific mychorrizia rich soil, and others in control soils that were pretreated with a specific antifungal.. When they reached a certain point the mychorrrzials were stronger.. They added the specific anti-fungal to both group's soils at this point.. The corn grown in control soil kept growing pretty normally, but the mychorrzia grown samples took a serious punch to the teeth..
There is one tricky thing about mychorrizae though.. And that is they are somewhat plant type specific.. Some are mychorrzial with some plants, others with others.. Amanita Muscaria mushrooms are mychorrzial with alot of hardwoods for instance, but not with cannabis.. 
Kind of a reason I've never dropped big bucks on mychorrzial labelled soil, but I break those sterility rules and mix in some ultra loamy surface soil from forest lowlands with softer green plants .. That was what my dad had us collect each year when we prepped our garden, and our garden was always a talking point in the community.. I've never done big soil grows though.. When I was growing seriously I was doing hydro.. After university I did soil-grown personal crops, never had more than 2-3 at a time though, so concise experimention didn't happen.. My dad is no fool though.. He may be a lumberjack who uses words like 'fer', but he REALLY knows the forest so I'm giving benefit of doubt for now..
And for the record, I've never had a bug problem..

Hard to believe your worms couldn't handle that.. Not so hard to believe that 427 goldfish couldn't hack pH 5.4 with more NH3 than the norm for too long..

I'm trying to think of a unique word/phrase that was in that carb uptake info.. Without that finding that again will be tough..


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 12, 2009)

It is my understanding that there are 2 types of mycors, each tends to mine the soil differently regarding plant type. There is only one way to find out and that's to do a control group and keep careful records. Even then so many factors come into play with this stuff. What one person says caused the whatever could have actually been due to a change in temps and such.

Speaking of factors, that's why I have to laugh when someone says "he got 2 grams/lumen." Doesn't mean a damn thing, as no two light systems are the same, no two spectrums are the same, etc. and all cultural factors have been discarded in favor of some ridiculous measurement, anecdotal at that which can not be verified or confirmed.


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## merahoon (Feb 12, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Another snake-oil I cling to is that fermenting boost buckets are more effective than at first glance because of the ethane, and other organic compounds they evolve with the CO2.. I swear the side of my table nearest the boost bucket finished a bit earlier each and every time regardless where I put it..
> (Don't get me wrong, I'm not just fermenting for the gases.. I'm as much into brewing/distilling as I am growing..)


 
What is this bucket your talking about and the benefits of it? I looked up "fermenting boost buckets" but I just pulled of things of how to brew...


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## born2killspam (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm well versed in physics, and I've been running around trying to smash lighting myths for a long time.. Regarding plants especially, virtually all ways ppl in this hobby discuss lighting is absolutely incorrect.. Luckily its fairly equivalently incorrect, and aside from slightly differing spectrums from differing gas mixtures and ballast specs the combination of misdescription and misunderstanding cancel each other out, leaving comparable info..
The brutal crime is when lumen outputs of MH are compared to lumen outputs of HPS.. The spectrums differ so much, that lumens cannot be used as a comparison for photosynthetically active radiation at all..
Actually, even watt by watt those two can't be compared, because HPS throws out roughly 1.5x as many photosynthetically active photons/watt as MH, and acceptable photon counts (measured in µEinsteins) are what plants really care about.. I've been meaning to work out a respectable greenplant-lumen system, but ppl would actually need the true bulb spectrum, not those continuous curves they put on boxes to integrate their plant-lumen value..
I agree totally about subtleties being able to overtake predictability.. Soil organisms have some serious cycles I know for one thing.. My strategy is to get some soil from oddly lush areas filled with plants similar to what I'm planting.. Mychorrizial fungii are not rare in nature.. The dream is to stumble upon a cheap system/mix that works 10x better than any other (whatever makes it do so).. The way I see it, is guys like you, who have been around the block for so long have your systems that work, and its as good a starting point as any for newer ppl to develop their own lucky concoction.. Anecdote is better than nothing when total understanding isn't feasible..

I love online course material for partial understanding though!
http://www.soils.wisc.edu/~hickey/Soils_523/PartII/


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## born2killspam (Feb 12, 2009)

merahoon, a byproduct of brewing/fermenting is constant CO2 production.. Roughly 50% of the sugar mass is released as CO2 over the fermenting period.. 
Another route though if you don't want the alcohol is to allow yeast to process the sugar in an aerobic environment.. In this mode, they reproduce rather than ferment, and the chemistry is different allowing you to yield roughly 1.5x the sugar mass in CO2.. 
And as I mentioned quite a few other gases are also evolved in small quantities..


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## merahoon (Feb 12, 2009)

Oh very nice. Thanks for the info. Is there a thread that I can learn about how to set one of those up?


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## doctorherb (Feb 12, 2009)

THANKS A BILLION , UNCLE BEN 
Your contribution to the "community" is PRICELESS !!


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## born2killspam (Feb 12, 2009)

There are more than a few CO2 threads, but alot of it is the blind leading the blind..

Google [yeast born2killspam site:rollitup.org]
I've popped into a few CO2 threads and stated my peace.. Its not rocket science at all.. Sugary solutions will ferment if you simply leave them sitting around, but if you want predictable output, and a potable finished drink then follow my guidelines..
I should start a CO2 thread really.. I have years and years of distilling under my belt, and the chemistry knowhow to outline other options still.. CO2 can be made in sooo many ways.. (But bottles/burners still can't be beat for control..)


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 12, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> There are more than a few CO2 threads, but alot of it is the blind leading the blind..


Exactly. 

IMO, you're better off concentrating on what makes a plant tick than worrying about some off beat adjunct like injecting CO2 into the garden. Aint nothing like having fresh air - it's cheap, works wonders, and requires no effort or cost. 

I have an archive for producing CO2 by fermentation published 10 years ago, but why bother?

UB


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## merahoon (Feb 12, 2009)

It never hurts to add it. It's just another thing to learn, and I have no problem with that. You can only learn so much every day so why not learn about co2 as well during the downtime. Why don't you start a thread then? If you don't feel like it, thats totally understandable, lol.


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## born2killspam (Feb 12, 2009)

I never closed concepted it.. I just put my ferments beside my grow with 600+cuft of air leaving the window each minute.. I might try a closed concept if I ever have the urge to drop a few grand on everything you need to actually contol that (like if I win the lottery, even though I don't play it), but that would be a very bad idea with yeast production.. 
And you won't actually see CO2 benefit unless you currently have more light than your plants can use at your ambient CO2 level anyway.. How much that is, I have no idea.. I've come across a ton of contradictory numbers.. I do know that the sun puts out more than the VAST majority of grow rooms (if not every single one), and plants grow really really well outdoors with an average 300ppm CO2..
Like I said, the anecdotal thing I noticed was the plants (matching clones) closest to carboys seemed to finish a tad quicker, and ethane is evolved in a fermentation, and it is a plant hormone associated with ripening..
What I meant by blind leading blind is that not many ppl on these forums apparently know how to brew.. Recipes for boost buckets I've come across are guaranteed to stall at partial completion, and would make prison hooch seem like whiskey thats old enough to buy its own whiskey if you were to drink it..
But I can honestly say that not even the worst sugar wash recipe could make you go blind..


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 13, 2009)

CO2 injection is fine. The hassles and costs outweigh the benefits to me. 

OK, I dug out my archive:



> Caveat, for CO2 to be effective it must be contained within the garden. I'm also a long time brewer....so here goes:
> 
> Hello folks:
> 
> ...


Folks should spend their time understanding the concept of light saturation, the point where more becomes less. BTW, HID's over 250W will indeed offer more f.c. than the sun. All depends on the placement of the lamp in relation to the leaves. I also have a ditty on that.

Hells bells, might as well fetch that one too.


*DISTANCE FROM LIGHT*............*F.C. READING*

......................._250W HPS.............600W HPS_

Within 6" (Way off 10K f.c. scale, for both lamps)

6".......................10,000...............10K+

8".......................7,100.................10K+

12"......................4,800................8,700

18"......................2,800................5,600

24"......................2,000................4,200

30"......................1,400................3,300

Frame of reference: sun = 9,000 - 10,000 f.c. average, clear summer day, high noon;
Cool White fluor measured 2" from bulb = 1,200 f.c.

Enjoy,
Uncle Ben


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## HyDro Guy (Feb 13, 2009)

Great info. I can't wait to try this.


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## born2killspam (Feb 13, 2009)

Only thing I'd dispute in that is that baker's yeast is good to about 14%.. Well, then again, baker's yeast ferments 'excellently' to 10%, then kind of falls victim to stress, so if you push baker's yeast too high flavor goes downhill a tad..
And I can't say whether the other gases evolved were more prominent early, late, or throughout.. He is right, CO2 goes way down near the end, but remember I anecdotally believe it was the ethylene's effect that I noticed..
The most consistent way you could do CO2 via yeast would be an array of 7 2L bottles, each stagger-started by a day, cycling once/week.. But again, if you're gonna bother with yeast, you should go to one of these sites, and learn how to produce another fine product in your grow room.. And 7 2L bottles would be quite inconvenient for a real fermentation..
http://homedistiller.org/forum/index.php
http://forum.northernbrewer.com/index.php

I have a nice nitty-gritty pdf on photosynthesis I & II, and their evolution that covers light saturation, and the damage it can cause.. (Plants can start processing O2 like CO2, which forms nasty peroxides etc for one thing).. Its both interesting reading, and enormously complex bio-chem.. One thing it explains simply is that photosynthesis doesn't flip on like a light, but rather builds up like a fire.. And it can hit a red-line level kind of like an engine..
Its 1.2MB pdf so the board won't attach it, but if anybody wants it, PM me with an email..


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 13, 2009)

HyDro Guy said:


> Great info. I can't wait to try this.


Let us know how it goes.



born2killspam said:


> Only thing I'd dispute in that is that baker's yeast is good to about 14%.. Well, then again, baker's yeast ferments 'excellently' to 10%, then kind of falls victim to stress, so if you push baker's yeast too high flavor goes downhill a tad.


 Only mentioned it because that's the first thing folks grab. I would never use Bakers yeast for fermenting anything.



> And I can't say whether the other gases evolved were more prominent early, late, or throughout.


Always balls to the wall early on, then the must/wort enters a moderate phase and then a slow secondary stage until it poops out.



> He is right, CO2 goes way down near the end, but remember I anecdotally believe it was the ethylene's effect that I noticed..
> The most consistent way you could do CO2 via yeast would be an array of 7 2L bottles, each stagger-started by a day, cycling once/week.. But again, if you're gonna bother with yeast, you should go to one of these sites, and learn how to produce another fine product in your grow room.. And 7 2L bottles would be quite inconvenient for a real fermentation..
> http://homedistiller.org/forum/index.php
> http://forum.northernbrewer.com/index.php


I've ordered from Northern Brewer, good firm with great prices. BTW, I'm also a winemaker and have a small vineyard myself. Am getting ready to plant 15,000 vines for a neighbor!



> I have a nice nitty-gritty pdf on photosynthesis I & II, and their evolution that covers light saturation, and the damage it can cause.. (Plants can start processing O2 like CO2, which forms nasty peroxides etc for one thing).. Its both interesting reading, and enormously complex bio-chem.. One thing it explains simply is that photosynthesis doesn't flip on like a light, but rather builds up like a fire.. And it can hit a red-line level kind of like an engine..
> Its 1.2MB pdf so the board won't attach it, but if anybody wants it, PM me with an email..


Found it, it's still good in the LOR - http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page26.html

I'll post a ditty I did that you may remember, my Link-O-Rama. I'm sure alot of links are dead, but if anyone wants to pick up where I left off, edit and add to it, feel free. 

Ben


----------



## Uncle Ben (Feb 13, 2009)

*LINK-O-RAMA*

Word to the wise - buy a good grow book and check out some books from the library on plant culture, especially indoor growing. Grow some radishes, lettuce, and tomatoes before you jump into this hobby - you'll learn alot from that experience and will save yourself alot of grief. Alot of folks have never grown anything in their life (and that's OK), just don't set yourself up for failure. Best advice to ya - learn what makes a plant tick, and the rest will come easy.

I recommend the purchase of a book like Mel Frank's MJ Growers Insider's Guide or Jorge Cervantes . It is your shortcut to success, complete with graphs, photos, tables, and text regarding outdoor and indoor growing. There are alot of mailorder vendors that will ship discretely and can be trusted to respect your need for privacy. I can recommend FS Books for those in the USA.

Grow hard and well,
Uncle Ben

============================================================================

.......................................................LINK-O-RAMA............................................................

This is a composite of what I consider some of the best cannabis and indoor plant
cultivation sites available on the web. If anyone has any revisions or additions to this little
ditty that you feel merit consideration, please let me know. Also, if there are any dead links
I would appreciate a heads-up on that too. Enjoy and grow hard - Uncle Ben 
...............................................................................................................................................

LINKS FOR SECURITY ISSUES:

Test your proxy for security holes: 
http://www.all-nettools.com/tools1.htm

Proxies listed by speed or date:
http://tools.rosinstrument.com/cgi-bin/fp.pl/showlog?

Test your computer for Stealth, go to the ShieldsUp link:
http://grc.com/default.htm

Excellent free anon services:
http://www.aixs.net
http://www.rewebber.de
http://www.thefreesite.com/anonymous.htm

ID Zap-producer of ID Secure anon software rated tops by PC Mag:
http://www.idzap.com/

ZoneAlarm, an excellent free firewall:
http://www.zonealarm.com/
......................................................................................................................

Looking for a DIGITAL CAMERA or just need some technical help?

PROFESSIONAL & CONSUMER DIGICAM REVIEWS:

Steve Sanders is one of the best professional digicam reviewers IMO:
http://www.steves-digicams.com/hardware_reviews.html 

Another good pro review/critique site:
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/cameraList.php3 

Great site which includes consumer reviews:
http://www.pcphotoreview.com/

Excellent professional review site:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/DIGCAM01.HTM
Use the "Comparameter" while you're there!

Critiques/reviews by links: http://www.all-digital-links.com/ 

Excellent consumer review site:
http://www.epinions.com/elec-Photo-Cameras-All-Digital 

DIGICAM CHAT FORUMS:

My favorite chat forum and an excellent resource for cam info:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/ 

Monthly digicam mag:
http://www.megapixel.net/html/issueindex.html 
....................................................................................................

GENERAL PLANT CULTURE

*[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]EFFECT OF LIGHT INTENSITY AND CO2 ON PHOTOSYNTHESIS[/SIZE][/FONT]*
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page26.html

Factors affecting Respiration:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page28.html

Plant hormones and growth substances:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page30.html

How high temperatures can damage plants:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page40.html

Relationship between Photosynthesis, Respiration, and Light Intensity:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page54.html

Images of Cannabaceae :
http://bush.cs.tamu.edu/FLORA/imaxxcan.htm

Layering:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page89.html

Variances in cloning - you will need Acrobat Reader: 
http://www.orst.edu/dept/hort/faculty/Proebsting/hort311/pdf_files/07_Clones1.pdf 

Types of Layering:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page90.html

Factors affecting rate of Photosynthesis:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/2385/rate.htm

Topping explained and illustrated:
http://www.cannabinoid.com/wwwboard/growing/messages/37/37366.shtml

Everything you need to know about worm farming:
http://gnv.fdt.net/~windle/

NUTRIENT ISSUES:

A Systematic Approach to Diagnosing Plant Damage - excellent paper on nutrient imbalances, although formatting is a little hard to follow ~
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/hort/dpd/chemkey.htm

"Miracle" products - caveat emptor:
http://www.noble.org/ag/Soils/MiracleProducts/Index.htm

So you like "rocket fuels"? Download the PDF file and read the results of scientific studies stating that such products as humates and soil activators are worthless:
http://tcebookstore.org/pubinfo.cfm?pubid=934

Plant nutrition:
http://vengers.com/culture/fert.htm

So you like Miracle Grow?
http://mgonline.com/fertilize.html
http://www.angelfire.com/hi/AdeniumsofHawaii/miracle.html

Table 2 reference of the affect of fertilizers on pH and their elemental value:
http://www.ext.msstate.edu/pubs/is372.htm

DIY soil mixes...value of amendments explained:
http://users.anet.com/~manytimes/page41.htm

Organic soil mixes - excellent!
http://www.coastnet.com/~bcga/soil/potmix.html#standard

Explanation of the affects of hormones:
http://www.plant-hormones.info/

Plant nutrition explained by Dyna-Gro staff horticulturist-Essential vs Beneficial:
http://retirees.uwaterloo.ca/~jerry/orchids/nutri.html

Plant nutrition and The Law of Minimum
http://www.soils.wisc.edu/~barak/soilscience326/primary.htm

Essential elements, element mobility, and pH effect:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page74.html

Nutrients with similar deficiency symptoms:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page78.html

Humate products:
http://www.unifiedsystems.com/humicacids.htm

Damp-Off disease issues:
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/horticulture/DG1167.html

Another site that addresses Damping Off diseases - excellent!
http://users.anet.com/~manytimes/page48.htm

Organic Pest Control Vendor:
http://www.ghorganics.com/

Insect Pest Troubleshooting Link
http://ipmwww.ncsu.edu/INSECT_ID/AG136/ncstate.html

................................................................................

Drug testing info. Check out the section "Adulterant and Other Studies"
http://drugtesting.freeservers.com/main.html

Everything you always to ask about Ozone generators but were afraid to ask:
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html
...........................................................................................................................

LINKS SPECIFIC TO WATER CULTURE

Maximum Yield magazine on hydroponic gardening:
http://www.maximumyield.com/docs/previous_issue.html 

Aquaponics culture:
http://www.aquaponics.com/

Excellent online hydro forum and support group
http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/

.........................................................................................................

LINKS SPECIFIC TO LIGHTING ISSUES: spectrums, photomorphogenesis,
light intensity, regulatory affects, plant responses to MH vs HPS:

Properties of 250W & 400W metal halide lights; check out the Iwasaki 6500K lamp!
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/dec/features/2/default.asp

Excellent review of many types of lamps' PAR values, efficiency, etc. 
http://www.aquabotanic.com/lightcompare.htm

Indoor lighting - HID's, excellent fluor info:
http://www.vengers.com/faq/faq14sec41.htm#data

Effects of Various Radiant Sources on Plant Growth - affects of MH vs HPS on indoor plant growth: http://ss.jircas.affrc.go.jp/engpage/jarq/33-3/tazawa/tazawa1.htm

Spectral Power Distribution (SPD) graphs of lamps: http://www.squ1.com/index.php?http://www.squ1.com/lighting/lamps.html

Chat room discussion on the affects of colored light on seedlings and mature plants:
http://www.globalgarden.com/Tomato/Archives/vol.1/0396.html

White paper reflecting the value of colored reflecting surfaces:
http://library.northernlight.com/ZZ19980116010012151.html?cb=0&sc=0#doc

Photomorphogenesis, or the use of colored filters to regulate plant growth/flowering
responses: http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/hort/sctop/photomor/Specfltr.htm

Use of colored row covers to regulate plant growth:
http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/hort/sctop/photomor/Rwcvrs.htm

Footcandles, lumens, & PAR:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Tech/intensorama.html

Light absorption spectrum of leaf chlorophyll and carotenoids:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page24.html

Light quality from artificial sources:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page25.html

Effect of light intensity & CO2 on Photosynthesis:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page26.html

......................................................................................................................

U.S. UNIVERSITY AG PROGRAMS & PLANT CULTURE INFO:

The following is a *MUST-READ* for the advanced MJ gardener:
MJ Optics - THC influence by UVB radiation
http://freewebhosting.hostdepartment.com/j/jknuc/

Everything you wanted to know about soil preparation/culture but were afraid to ask:
http://www.cals.cornell.edu/dept/flori/growon/index.html

So you're a Micro-biologist? Well, here ya go....about a hundred or so excellent links to botany related websites:
http://www.biol.uni.torun.pl/~henroz/links.html

Plants parts that may be used in vegetative propagation /physiological and environmental factors affecting rooting. Excellent!
http://www2.ctahr.hawaii.edu/tpss/academics/undergraduate/courses/tpss200/vegprop.htm

Plant disease facts:
http://www.cas.psu.edu/docs/CASDEPT/PLANT/ext/fact.html

Online Biology Book:
http://gened.emc.maricopa.edu/bio/bio181/BIOBK/BioBookTOC.html

Ohio State Plant Facts:
http://www.hcs.ohio-state.edu/hcs/hcs.html

Conversion tables, formulas, and suggested guidelines for horticultural use:
http://www.ces.uga.edu/pubcd/B931.htm#Table 25

Texas Aggie Horticulture:
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/tamuhort.html 
.............................................................................................................,..............

GROW GUIDES

Marijuana Botany - by Robert Clarke
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Amphitheatre/5796/botany.html

Ed Rosenthal's Growing Guide brought to you by the Finnish Cannabis Assoc.
http://www.sky.org/data/mjgrowers.html
............................................................................................................................

Can't forget our tummies! Cookin' with cannabis:
http://www.cannabisculture.com/backissues/cc10/Choco.html
.................................................................................................................................

VARIOUS CANNABIS WEBSITES -

Klozit King's cannabis culture guide:
http://www.klozitking.com

D.J. Short's Guide to Harvesting/Curing:
http://www.cannabisculture.com/backissues/cc11/harvest.html
http://www.cannabisculture.com/backissues/cc10/cure.html

Haight Ashbury Website - San Francisco
http://www.sanfranciscobay.com/haightashbury/ie-stoner.htm

Comprehensive cannabis site with pics of males/females and more:
http://www.erowid.org/entheogens/cannabis/cannabis.shtml

Great website links covering all aspects of cannabis issues and culture:
http://www.theflow.nl/flowlnk.htm

More great cannabis websites links:
http://www.thc.nl/ConLinks.htm

High Times Cannabis Culture by Kyle:
http://www.hightimes.com/ht/tow/culq/Welcome.tmpl$showpage?a=46&b=60

BC Growers page -
http://www.coastnet.com/~bcga/bcg.htm

Amsterdam growers:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hempy/index.html

...........................................VENDORS.................................................

UNITED STATES

Ballast parts and HID lamps, EXCELLENT prices:
http://www.hidirect.com/

All Seasons Garden Supply: http://www.allseasonsnashville.com/

Diamond Lights: http://www.diamondlights.com/

Charley's Greenhouse: http://www.charleysgreenhouse.com/

Alternative Garden: http://www.alternativegarden.com/

Discount Hydroponics: http://www.discount-hydro.com/

Discount Garden: http://www.discountgarden.com/

Greenfire Gardening Supplies: http://www.greenfire.net/

Eco Hydroponics: http://www.ecogrow.com/

General Hydroponics: http://www.genhydro.com/systems.html

Greenair: http://www.greenair.com/product.htm

Greentrees: http://www.greentrees.com/

Harvest Moon: http://hmoonhydro.com/store/store.cgi

Home Harvest: http://homeharvest.com/table.htm

How-to-Hydro: http://howtohydroponics.com/

Hydroasis: http://hydroasis.com/

InterUrban: http://www.interurban.com/

Light Mfg: http://www.litemanu.com/menu.html

Pacific Hydro: http://www.pacific-hydro.com/

Simply Hydro: http://www.simplyhydro.com/products.htm

Superior Grower Supply: http://www.sgs-hydroponic.com/contents.htm

Worm's Way:
http://www.wormsway.com/

CANADA

Brite Lite Hydroponics
http://www.hydroponix.com

B & B Hydroponics
http://www.bandbhydroponics.com

BC Hydroponics: http://www.bchydroponics.com/

Homegrown Hydro: http://www.hydroponics.com/

Jon's Plant Factory: http://www.jonsplantfactory.com/

AUSTRALIA/NEW ZEALAND

Hydro Shop:
http://www.hydroshop.com.au/

Accent Hydro:
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~accent/hobby_cat/hobcat.html

Hydro Warehouse: 
http://www.hydroponics.webcentral.com.au/catalogue/catalog.htm

HighLife Hydro: http://www.highlife.com.au/products.htm

New Zealand hydro: http://www.nzero.co.nz/hydropon/index.htm

UK

Evergreen Hydroponics
http://www.pavilion.co.uk/evergreen/

Esoteric Hydroponics
http://www.blunt.co.uk/

Nutriculture Hydroponic Systems - builds NFT systems etc.
http://www.nutriculture.co.uk/

Holland Hydroponics:
http://www.hydroponics.co.uk/html/products.html

Various Retailers:
http://www.ukcia.org/green/default.htm#horticulture

FRANCE:

Growing supplies: http://hydroid.free.fr/


----------



## captain792000 (Feb 13, 2009)

thanks for sharing this awesome tecnique UB.....+rep....


----------



## merahoon (Feb 13, 2009)

Wow... thank you very very much for all those links. Saves us all hours of research time!


----------



## born2killspam (Feb 13, 2009)

"Start a general garden" might be the best advice ever given in this hobby.. I know I'm glad my parents worked my ass off in our garden every year.. I wasn't at the time though..
I had no idea you were that far into alcohol production though.. Sadly I've never planted a single grape.. I like a good wine, but I love my Demerara rum.. Rum is funny in the sense that baker's yeast oddly ferments it best.. Not so much if you're using any refined sugar, but if you shell out the stupid money for Demerara sugar, or pure cane molasses and know how to ferment, then my god! Baker's yeast (Flieshman's) gives it a body that is unmatched..
I always have a decent yeast selection on hand though incase I do some beer, or a sour mash etc..
Beauty links though.. I must have seen that on overgrow.. Seeing as some of those links are dead, I'm compelled to dig up an ancient PC I was using at the time because I have GB's of archived web-links on it.. Maybe, just maybe I hoarded those.. If you thought they were worth saving then I might have to.. I saved most pages I read in those days.. I mean I had a 6GB hdd, I had all the room in the world to save web pages..


----------



## GrowingGreenGiant (Feb 13, 2009)

flowering can be altered by human intervention. for example if you grow indoors you can grow your plant for as long as you want until you change the nutes to less nitro and change the light cycle to 12 - 12. respectively the plant may not actually veg for a year but you can veg it way longer than its norm.


----------



## born2killspam (Feb 13, 2009)

true/not true to a point.. Make a thread out;outlining your details...


----------



## regionaldragon (Feb 15, 2009)

What if you have alternating nodes instead of pairs of nodes, where do you top?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2009)

Ya'll are welcome. Like I said, the LOR needs updating. It's been years.



born2killspam said:


> "Start a general garden" might be the best advice ever given in this hobby.. I know I'm glad my parents worked my ass off in our garden every year.. I wasn't at the time though..


Funny how the old man really did know what he was doing, eh? 



> I had no idea you were that far into alcohol production though..


I'm not. I haven't brewed beer in at least 8 years and probably won't again. I now have a chance to make some high quality wine out of high quality vinifera wine grapes from what I'm growing and vineyards in my area.



> Sadly I've never planted a single grape.. I like a good wine, but I love my Demerara rum..


Well, we're getting off topic, but if you want a really smooth, almost sweet rum that has a hint of vanilla, try Matsulem, it's Cuban. It isn't flavored, it's just a rich, well made rum. http://www.matusalem.com/



> Beauty links though.. I must have seen that on overgrow..


You did. I had a pinned stickie with over 100,000 views.



> Seeing as some of those links are dead, I'm compelled to dig up an ancient PC I was using at the time because I have GB's of archived web-links on it.. Maybe, just maybe I hoarded those.. If you thought they were worth saving then I might have to.. I saved most pages I read in those days.. I mean I had a 6GB hdd, I had all the room in the world to save web pages..


That'll work, go for it!



regionaldragon said:


> What if you have alternating nodes instead of pairs of nodes, where do you top?


You can't. Nodes must be opposing for the double output thingie. If your nodes are alternating, you won't get the effect as the top node (leafset) will be at a point on the plant that has the greatest collection of auxins, the newest, highest tissue. Auxins control a plant's growing dynamics. When you pinch out the tip of a plant that is in a veg stage (has opposing nodes/leafsets) then basically the plant splits the auxins and sends them to the 2 dormant buds located at the axis of where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk". Viola, you get simultaneous output, two new leafsets as shown on page one of this thread.

Good luck,
UB


----------



## Kriegs (Feb 15, 2009)

merahoon said:


> Hey UB,
> Just thought I should stop by and post my first experience with topping after reading your thread. This is my first indoor grow and even though you explained topping well, I didn't completely understand EXACTLY how its done so I just went ahead and tried out different things like you suggested.
> 
> I cut my plants at various nodes to see how the plant responded. Keep in mind, all of my plants had 5-6 nodes and some with the 7th barely forming. I have one bagseed that I FIM'ed at the incoming 4th node and topped at the sixth node after the new growth. And now, I have between 6+ tops on that plant. All of my Sativas I topped above the second node. I cut above the second node once on one of my indicas but it hurt me to see how much I was cutting off. After that, I cut above the third node (my fav) which seems to have given me 6 new tops? Then I cute above the fourth node and it gave me two new tops plus making the plant more bushy. All the cuts seem to be beneficial but I would have to say I like cutting above the third node the best. We see what the end results turn out like. Hopefully the ones I cute are females...
> ...


I had this "swollen node" character at the petiole bases in my batch of bagseed indicas -- just on the females. The males didn't produce this. I'm interested in hearing how your sex ratio pans out versus this character. I also had two bubblelicious in the same grow that went male, and also didn't show this character. No one seems to have much comment on this yet; it's something I'll be watching through successive grows to see if it pans out as a sex-determinant character.


----------



## born2killspam (Feb 15, 2009)

+rep for sensibly thinking outside the box on the gender differentiation thing..


----------



## Kriegs (Feb 15, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> +rep for sensibly thinking outside the box on the gender differentiation thing..


Thanks, man... much appreciated. I have no idea if it will pan out, but it would be huge if it did. My plants showed this character at two weeks, a full two weeks before any (pre)flowers. 

Another place to see this is in the FAQ's under sexing -- the fem shown there has this; the male does not. But, no mention in the sexing page about it.. don't even know if the poster noticed it.


----------



## born2killspam (Feb 15, 2009)

Well if you already knew what will happen there wouldn't be much point in experimenting further huh? Thats science in its purest form..


----------



## Kriegs (Feb 15, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Well if you already knew what will happen there wouldn't be much point in experimenting further huh? Thats science in its purest form..


Well, it's my first grow and I don't feel like I've seen enough to conclude anything. And, it could be a "strain thing" at which point I would think it highly desireable to breed this trait into another strain.

Anyway, here's a couple shots of one of my babes 3 weeks post 12/12, plus a shot of the "swollen node" character on one of these same females.


----------



## born2killspam (Feb 16, 2009)

Conclude no.. And you're in a tough spot in the sense that you'll see so much, your mind will overflow trying to analyze it all for information.. I got high hopes for you though..


----------



## "SICC" (Feb 16, 2009)

nice


----------



## GrowingGreenGiant (Feb 16, 2009)

um quick question. i know what a node is but what is a "true node"?


----------



## born2killspam (Feb 16, 2009)

That little seedling node that the cotyledons (rounded baby leaves) grow from is not a true node.. First true node is the one above that..


----------



## GrowingGreenGiant (Feb 16, 2009)

so the lowest node with baby leaves doesnt count as a true node. alright thanks for the help.


----------



## green chicken (Feb 18, 2009)

How long you been in bloom ?? Or you still in veg ??


----------



## born2killspam (Feb 18, 2009)

If you're asking about Kriegs' pics, then he stated 3weeks 12/12..
Notice the fairly thin leaves though.. Sativas don't really explode into flowering very quickly.. Its a result of the lattitude where the genetics originated.. Near the equator, its dang close to 12/12 all year round, so that behaviour helps them become a respectable size before concentrating on flower production..


----------



## GrowingGreenGiant (Feb 18, 2009)

yea and if your asking about me, this will be my second grow this spring. but i havent started yet, just preparing.


----------



## merahoon (Feb 19, 2009)

Kriegs said:


> I had this "swollen node" character at the petiole bases in my batch of bagseed indicas -- just on the females. The males didn't produce this. I'm interested in hearing how your sex ratio pans out versus this character. I also had two bubblelicious in the same grow that went male, and also didn't show this character. No one seems to have much comment on this yet; it's something I'll be watching through successive grows to see if it pans out as a sex-determinant character.


Sorry it took me a few days to get back. I was having problems with my internet. I had 3 power skunks in my room which were all male but they all had the swollen node characteristic. I heard someone mention that males begin to stretch at sexual maturity and I will have to say I did notice that out of the males I have picked. Some I was able to guess were male by the stretching before they showed.

I did notice though that the nodes that were swollen had a growth spurt and in most cases turned out to be dominant branches or they just caught up with the rest of the growth. I'm assuming this has to do with the flow of hormones since this always happened below my cut. I don't know though.


----------



## Kriegs (Feb 19, 2009)

merahoon said:


> Sorry it took me a few days to get back. I was having problems with my internet. I had 3 power skunks in my room which were all male but they all had the swollen node characteristic. I heard someone mention that males begin to stretch at sexual maturity and I will have to say I did notice that out of the males I have picked. Some I was able to guess were male by the stretching before they showed.
> 
> I did notice though that the nodes that were swollen had a growth spurt and in most cases turned out to be dominant branches or they just caught up with the rest of the growth. I'm assuming this has to do with the flow of hormones since this always happened below my cut. I don't know though.


Okay.. well, maybe this is just a characteristic of the plant in general. It would really surprise me to find that thousands/millions of growers over thousands of years had missed this. But, hey, you never know.

I did notice that, too -- my male bubblelicious plants were actually a week younger than the rest, but they caught up in height suddenly even before I went 12/12.

Thanks for the feedback..


----------



## merahoon (Feb 20, 2009)

Kriegs said:


> Okay.. well, maybe this is just a characteristic of the plant in general. It would really surprise me to find that thousands/millions of growers over thousands of years had missed this. But, hey, you never know.
> 
> I did notice that, too -- my male bubblelicious plants were actually a week younger than the rest, but they caught up in height suddenly even before I went 12/12.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback..


No problem man. Cool theory though till it was busted. Male plants have to carry somewhat different characteristic other than their pollen sacs... but what? And maybe they really don't show any other signs besides their sacs.


----------



## Kriegs (Feb 20, 2009)

merahoon said:


> No problem man. Cool theory though till it was busted. Male plants have to carry somewhat different characteristic other than their pollen sacs... but what? And maybe they really don't show any other signs besides their sacs.


Yup... in any case, we'll keep up the search.


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## born2killspam (Feb 20, 2009)

Disproving a hypothesis is scientific progress..


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 21, 2009)

merahoon said:


> No problem man. Cool theory though till it was busted. Male plants have to carry somewhat different characteristic other than their pollen sacs... but what? And maybe they really don't show any other signs besides their sacs.


I've never had a problem sexing using preflowers as an indicator, it's very reliable.


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## merahoon (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm not saying that its not reliable. I was saying I wish they would show certain growth patterns or something before they show preflowers so maybe you could confirm sooner that its a male or female. Even then though now that I think of it, I still wouldn't pull them till they showed the sure pre-flowers.


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## born2killspam (Feb 21, 2009)

Yea, it would be nice to walk to a guerilla grow when seedlings are only inches tall, long before you need to worry about somebody spotting/watching your plants, and know which to kill.. Its a dream worth dreaming anyways..


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## Chipp (Feb 21, 2009)

Cool method - I think I will do it on my grow soon. I'm a turbo noob and had some Q's:

1. About how long was that plant on the first page veging (the one that yielded like 10oz) before it was put into flowering?

2. How much did the plant shoot up in height/bushiness once it was put into flowering?

3. That plant - how *wide* would you say it was? I'm building a grow box for just 1 plant, and I don't want the width * length to be too small. What is a a realistic w*L*h to house a plant like that?


This might be a bit off topic. Thanks!!


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## born2killspam (Feb 21, 2009)

I find myself saying this alot, but it will depend on genetics and also on you.. Some ppl have the patience to deal with a crowded area, others will go downhill faster.. Also depends on you medium, be it soil, hydro etc and lights regarding height.. 30"x30" is probably more than enough area for any lone plant.. Less than that, and I'd worry about serious annoyance.. 
A setup with 400W hid for instance is going to require 6-10" for the actual light.. Atleast 12" space between lights and tops, and likely 24" or even more for root area if you're growing it big..
So you'll need 3-4 feet just for accessory space.. Its possible to cheat on height a bit by putting it to the side of the tops etc, but don't plan to rely on that, you'll dig a deep hole of grief if you cut yourself short (especially on a first grow..
With cfl's is a whole different ballgame.. You can get away with a pretty small area if using cfl's.. But compared to hps, that ball game is whiffle-ball..


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## Chipp (Feb 21, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> 10oz before even starting to flower?? I missed that, UB is the champion..
> (Sorry, I read it that way, and had to respond in kind..)


haha clearly someone is using magical seeds for that... pretty much im worried that the growbox im constructing today might be too small..what dimensions would you recommend to house one plant of that size? (the size of theone in the first post that was 4-cola'd)


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## born2killspam (Feb 21, 2009)

Sorry, that was less funny after I posted it, so I edited that post to actually answer the questions..


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## big0bag0weed (Feb 22, 2009)

im not understanding exactly where to cut??


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## born2killspam (Feb 22, 2009)

I think his pics are pretty straightforward on that, but here..


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 22, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> I think his pics are pretty straightforward on that, but here..


Gotta spoon fed 'em. If folks don't get it based on my photos and detailed explanations and your excellent graph, they never will. 

Tio


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## GrowingGreenGiant (Feb 22, 2009)

lol for real


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## born2killspam (Feb 22, 2009)

If you think thats good then you should see my abstract works..


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 22, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> If you think thats good then you should see my abstract works..


Hah!


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## BubbaBlaze (Feb 24, 2009)

would this be a good idea for a micro grow in a 18"x30"x5' storage cab. or would the plants be to small to handle the weight.


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## BubbaBlaze (Feb 24, 2009)

BubbaBlaze said:


> would this be a good idea for a micro grow in a 18"x30"x5' storage cab. or would the plants be to small to handle the weight.


 I should add ? would this even be a good idea on a 12/12 from seed


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## born2killspam (Feb 24, 2009)

I wouldn't be growing in 30" without a screen to hold them down, but this is as good a method as any to grow them into a screen.. I'd read up on lollipopping though if thats all the height you have..


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## BubbaBlaze (Feb 24, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> I wouldn't be growing in 30" without a screen to hold them down, but this is as good a method as any to grow them into a screen.. I'd read up on lollipopping though if thats all the height you have..


the floor is 18"x 30" but the cab. is 5' tall. here is some pics im currently low stress training them sidways to keep down height. I was jest very interested in this method for next time if it was possible


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 25, 2009)

BubbaBlaze said:


> would this be a good idea for a micro grow in a 18"x30"x5' storage cab. or would the plants be to small to handle the weight.


You can always use stakes and wrap strips of women's hosiery around the plant. I think I covered this in a previous post. It's your call on how you want to train your plants. Me? In a 5' tall cabinet I'd be growing 2 maybe 3 plants each topped to 4 main colas, but then again I don't do cabinets. Cabinets come with too many logistical problems for me.

Good luck,
UB


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## fulltimesmoker (Feb 26, 2009)

Great post uncle ben i've read it twice now and i i'll definately be using your topping technique for the 4 main colas on my ppp but im unsure whether to use this technique on feminised cheese as i've heard that fem seeds go hermie if you stress them in the slightest(not even sure if i'ts true).Im not saying that your technique WILL stress them I just wanted your opinion on this subject as you clearly have alot more experiance than me. Any help would be much appreciated.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 26, 2009)

fulltimesmoker said:


> Great post uncle ben i've read it twice now and i i'll definately be using your topping technique for the 4 main colas on my ppp but im unsure whether to use this technique on feminised cheese as i've heard that fem seeds go hermie if you stress them in the slightest(not even sure if i'ts true).Im not saying that your technique WILL stress them I just wanted your opinion on this subject as you clearly have alot more experiance than me. Any help would be much appreciated.


There is no stress involved, just a redirection of the auxins. It is an "apical dominance" issue. Understanding the functions of a plant and hormonal responses will alleviate your apprehension.

Stress is always grower induced - applying too much or too little plant food, water, light, etc., wrong temps. If they are hermie prone, and you have a problem with seeds, then don't buy them. Your call...... 

When they pop let me know so we can do this thing together.

Good luck,
UB


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## fulltimesmoker (Feb 26, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> There is no stress involved, just a redirection of the auxins. It is an "apical dominance" issue. Understanding the functions of a plant and hormonal responses will alleviate your apprehension.
> 
> Stress is always grower induced - applying too much or too little plant food, water, light, etc., wrong temps. If they are hermie prone, and you have a problem with seeds, then don't buy them. Your call......
> 
> ...


Thanks for replying UB. At the moment they are just sprouting their second set of leaves so i still have a good three weeks until im ready to start topping. Im looking forward to trying this technique as on previous occasions i've topped much higher up the plant and got a nice even canopy but i've never had any dominant colas like the ones you displayed on page one of this thread, that plant looks amazing!


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## OneHit (Feb 26, 2009)

UB, do you do all your grows from seed? Since with cloning, atleast the ones Ive been cloning, the nodes arnt right across from each other anymore.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 26, 2009)

fulltimesmoker said:


> Thanks for replying UB. At the moment they are just sprouting their second set of leaves so i still have a good three weeks until im ready to start topping. Im looking forward to trying this technique as on previous occasions i've topped much higher up the plant and got a nice even canopy but i've never had any dominant colas like the ones you displayed on page one of this thread, that plant looks amazing!


If I wasn't so lazy, I'd post this huge cola of 4 that I did outdoors. It's pretty foolproof.



OneHit said:


> UB, do you do all your grows from seed? Since with cloning, atleast the ones Ive been cloning, the nodes arnt right across from each other anymore.


A seedling is foolproof, a clone that shows alternating nodes (phytollaxy) will not work. Go long days, hit 'em with N, veg and when they return to opposing nodes, you can top to get 2 or 4 main colas instead the usual one.

UB


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## SomeGuy (Feb 26, 2009)

BubbaBlaze said:


> the floor is 18"x 30" but the cab. is 5' tall. here is some pics im currently low stress training them sidways to keep down height. I was jest very interested in this method for next time if it was possible



I am a cabinet grower too. Ive spent A LOT of time working out the problems. Heat is our biggest enemy!! LOL. Anyway, for what it is worth. I top very similar to ben during veg. I let the plants get about 8-10" and am now flowering under a dished screen around my 400w hps. First pic is my first flat scrog, second is my current dished one. I yeilded 3oz from one plant on the flat screen. Not to mention that plant was not as healthy as it should have been going to flower. 

I guess my point is... check into doing a scrog if your in a cabinet, its turned out best this way for me and Ive been at it for over a year in the cabinet.


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## born2killspam (Feb 26, 2009)

What strain is that?? It has no leaves.. Stealthy for outdoor I suppose.. 
I wouldn't be so vicious on the prune.. Leaves are only an enemy if they're blocking likght from beauty tops.. Also, is that reflector adjustable?, its really shallow, designed for long throw even spread.. You'll get more light reflecting more off the reflector than the walls.. That increases the distance, and, and the walls won't be as reflective either..


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## SomeGuy (Feb 26, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> What strain is that?? It has no leaves.. Stealthy for outdoor I suppose..
> I wouldn't be so vicious on the prune.. Leaves are only an enemy if they're blocking likght from beauty tops.. Also, is that reflector adjustable?, its really shallow, designed for long throw even spread.. You'll get more light reflecting more off the reflector than the walls.. That increases the distance, and, and the walls won't be as reflective either..


The screen is dished. Eventually the plant will crawl up the sidewalls and I will have a half circle of buds. I cant imagine that I dont have enough light or proper reflection with a 400w hps 12" from the tops in a 14" x 28" space. Aggressive pruning under the canopy is absolutely necessary. It all dies off anyway once the canopy cuts all the light from coming through below the screen. The plant in the flat screen wasn't as healthy as it should have been, but yielded 3oz dry none the less. The dish method is much more effective I just dont take many pictures... Those are only 1week into flower on the dished screen. Have you scroged? The techniques are quite a bit more aggressive than conventional growing.


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## born2killspam (Feb 26, 2009)

I grew with a similar setup.. You don't need to chop that viciously.. Let the plant decide what goes..


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## jankdatank420 (Feb 26, 2009)

Hey, I was wondering if the topping to get 4 main cholas way worked every time. Im a noob. Thanks. And how many plants can I fit in, and what type of watering system should I use for a 200 sqft. room? Just looking for suggestions.


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## merahoon (Feb 26, 2009)

Your a noob and your starting off in a 200 sq ft. room?


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## born2killspam (Feb 26, 2009)

Atleast he didn't ask what his yield would be..


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## GrowingGreenGiant (Feb 26, 2009)

for a noob i would try to stick to 1 - 10 plants


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 26, 2009)

I'll give you guys that bought into the SCROG drill about 2 tries before you finally give it up. 

BTW, it's leaves that produce bud.

UB


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## roll420 (Feb 27, 2009)

This is proly a dumb question but is it ok to cut a plant for 4 main trunks if you dont know if its female? Meaning its not a clone or feminized seed. Did not know if it would stress the plant and turn hermie? Thax


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## born2killspam (Feb 28, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'll give you guys that bought into the SCROG drill about 2 tries before you finally give it up.
> 
> BTW, it's leaves that produce bud.
> 
> UB


Can't really disagree about the scrog.. I started with something similar to Someguy, but I found it too resitrictive since I was a relative indoor noob, and the genetics were new to me.. 
What I ended up adopting when I vegged too long to go without support (since I was doing hydro in small pots and was REALLY top heavy) was a middle ground where I snaked heavy string around nails surrounding the perimeter in a grid type fashion.. (not a tight grid either, maybe 4") It usually made it easy to hold tops where I wanted them, and when it got in the way I could tie-off and cut out sections to gain freedom, or lower the tension..
I kind of cringe at the thought of aquainting myself with the intricacies of scrogging unfamiliar genetics.. Its a cloners game IMO.. After a few crops from the same motherplant you can usually peg down a workable system, but working up to that can carry alot of hassle..
Kalikitsune has a remarkable talent for scroging..
https://www.rollitup.org/2130333-post517.html
I cringed when I saw that and thought about the learning curve to get there, but apparently that was one of his first crops.. Looks like it went prretty smoothly.. Safe to say my experience was probably less pleasant..


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 28, 2009)

roll420 said:


> This is proly a dumb question but is it ok to cut a plant for 4 main trunks if you dont know if its female? Meaning its not a clone or feminized seed. Did not know if it would stress the plant and turn hermie? Thax


Sex doesn't matter, at least not in this case.  Topping does NOT stress a plant. Growers who don't know what makes a plant tick is what stress's a plant. Top, grow and then sex.

born2killspam, it's an issue of weighing the pros and cons I guess. SCROG is a maintenance headache a fact the proponents usually do no reveal. No, I haven't tried it but then again I'm pretty good at covering all the bases before I venture out into anything, cannabis, buying a new refrigerator, etc.

Make it a great day,
UB


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## born2killspam (Feb 28, 2009)

Proponents of anything usually don't reveal the downsides.. Horse fanatics are probably in a league of their own for that, but growing itself comes with alot more work and stress than alot of ppl on these forums bother to mention..
But for a crop or two, a restrictive screen probably tripled that work/stress for me..


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## OneHit (Feb 28, 2009)

born2kill and did you notice a yield increase from using the screen? If so, how much?


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## born2killspam (Feb 28, 2009)

You'll only see a yield increase if you aren't otherwise training for better light penetration.. Theres nothing magical about a screen, its just a way to orient buds in a uniform fashion.. If your plants don't want to grow uniformly then you're setting yourself up for alot of grief.. Individual tie-offs definately have advantages..
And if you want any chance at success at all, you need to plan the scrog from day 1.. You're setting yourself up for a world of hurt if you think you can snake an established garden through a screen..
Also, when topping as per UB's method, most plants (especially sativa type phenos) will adopt growth patterns that allow the light to get where it needs to go without excessive training like scroging..


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## roll420 (Feb 28, 2009)

Thx for the info, one more for you though..... Okay i cut above the 2nd true node..... now do i leave the baby leaf nodes on there or cut them off ... if you left them wouldnd't you end up with 6 buds? thax


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## born2killspam (Feb 28, 2009)

General rule of thumb is if you don't have a reason for cutting something off, don't cut it off..


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## Flagg (Feb 28, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> A seedling is foolproof, a clone that shows alternating nodes (phytollaxy) will not work. Go long days, hit 'em with N, veg and when they return to opposing nodes, you can top to get 2 or 4 main colas instead the usual one.
> 
> UB


I've been curious about this as well. When you say, "go long days", do you mean give them 18-24 hours of light per day? Also, do cannabis genetics guarantee that all cuttings will return to producing opposing nodes? If not, are there any techniques you would recommend for improving the chances of producing opposing nodes?

This thread is great. Thanks a lot for sharing your expertise, UB. You too, borntokillspam. +rep for both of you!

edit: Sorry, UB. No rep for you. I'm told I have to spread it around a bit before giving you another one. I gave you one back on page 1 the first time I read this thread. But thanks nonetheless.


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## born2killspam (Feb 28, 2009)

Mods should just bump his status up a few thousand points for ppl unaware of his history.. I'm guessing he doesn't care about points that much himself..


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 1, 2009)

roll420 said:


> Thx for the info, one more for you though..... Okay i cut above the 2nd true node..... now do i leave the baby leaf nodes on there or cut them off ... if you left them wouldnd't you end up with 6 buds? thax


My good friend answered this well, don't cut unless you know what affect your action has on the plant. Those "baby leaf nodes" I assume are your first "leaves", a rounded single blade on each side of the stem? Those (_cotyledons_) are actually not leaves, they are food reserves for the embryo. They will be exhausted and then drop off. No, I don't count the cotyledons as your first node.



Flagg said:


> I've been curious about this as well. When you say, "go long days", do you mean give them 18-24 hours of light per day?


Yep.



> Also, do cannabis genetics guarantee that all cuttings will return to producing opposing nodes? If not, are there any techniques you would recommend for improving the chances of producing opposing nodes?


I have reveged a couple of times and this is what I observed - with the switch to say.....a 20/4 and additional N, the plant will revert back to its juvenile stage. You should see opposing node sites, juvenile leafsets (single but more likely 3 leaf leafsets) as it progresses. It's a phytochrome thingie, the plant is responding to hormonal changes induced by the lengthening days. The N boost (30-10-10) just helps it along regarding foliage production versus reproductive.



> This thread is great. Thanks a lot for sharing your expertise, UB. You too, borntokillspam. +rep for both of you!


You're welcome! Glad you're playing along.



> edit: Sorry, UB. No rep for you. I'm told I have to spread it around a bit before giving you another one. I gave you one back on page 1 the first time I read this thread. But thanks nonetheless.


 Thanks. Appreciate the effort but not necessary. 



born2killspam said:


> Mods should just bump his status up a few thousand points for ppl unaware of his history.. I'm guessing he doesn't care about points that much himself..


I value it only as a quick way to say "hi" or such. Problem here is there is not a name attached to rep, at least not with the browser I'm using. Hell, until last week I didn't know there was a 'shop' button or ads here. I do not see any using SeaMonkey. Ya learn sumtin' everyday.


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## GrowingGreenGiant (Mar 1, 2009)

whats SeaMonkey?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 1, 2009)

GrowingGreenGiant said:


> whats SeaMonkey?


A Mozilla browser, Mozilla org being the producer of the old Netscape until Naughty Billy ran them out of biz by embedding IE with Windows....but that's another story.  Another well know browser of theirs is Firefox but I don't like the feel of it. It reminds me too much of IE and I heard it uses the same engine. I like SeaMonkey because it is an all inclusive browser which has an email and newsgroup client, is really intuitive and easy to get around, is fast, free, and has 6 great tools like Password Manager, Cookie Manager, etc.
http://www.seamonkey-project.org/releases/


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## born2killspam (Mar 1, 2009)

And it has some powerful features! Its built with web developers in mind, but the debugging tools aren't thrust in your face.. I checked it out on UB's advice, and am switching over pretty quickly from Opera.. It does seem to run faster than any other, but it seems to consume about 1.5x the memory Opera consumes performing the same tasks from a clean start.. The debugging tools actually allowed me to figure out a few problems on a couple of pages that I'd tried to solve before with no luck..


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## GrowingGreenGiant (Mar 1, 2009)

oh word, it sounds like its worth looking into


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## hootie233 (Mar 3, 2009)

hey i have 2 questions

1. Is there any reason why i shouldnt top my plant to make 2 colas?
2. How would you recommend me topping my plants when they are still pretty small, there isnt really a stock for me to clip, just more very small leaves coming in here are some recent pics. I would let them grow but i wont have enough room to flower. Sorry for the bad quality on one of them

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


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## born2killspam (Mar 3, 2009)

1. Maybe you'd rather have 4 colas, or train them differently altogether..
2. Those aren't ready to top yet.. UB was pretty clear in explaining why he waits.. 
Have you gotten your feeding routines down yet? Looks like you're pulling out of an over-feeding binge..


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## hootie233 (Mar 3, 2009)

nah I am a complete noob, this is my first grow. Im using a aerogarden and the plants are about 4 and a half inches tall and the light only raises like 12 inches so its time to flower. What do you mean feeding my colas? Feeding routines? I just dropped some AG nutes in once a week when i change out the resivor


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## born2killspam (Mar 3, 2009)

Grow them up, then cut them down to 1-2 nodes, then flower.
I was commenting on what looks like nute burn on the feeding...


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## OneHit (Mar 3, 2009)

The aero garden will be outgrown quickly, youll have to transfer to bigger pots eventually, make sure you plan for that


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## littlewhitewhore (Mar 4, 2009)

is it two late to top in flowering after sexing?


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## born2killspam (Mar 4, 2009)

You don't want to do any major cutting in the 12/12 cycle aside from harvest..


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 4, 2009)

You pinch out the top on a young seedling, let the 4 new "trunks" aka main colas grow out a bit and THEN flower. Why the rush to flower unless they are growing 3" a day and you don't have the headroom to accomodate large plants?

UB


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## hootie233 (Mar 4, 2009)

cuz they are gonna tripple in size and im already at 1/3rd the light height


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## GrowingGreenGiant (Mar 4, 2009)

well when you chop them down they lose about half their height so you'll probly be good


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 4, 2009)

hootie233 said:


> cuz they are gonna tripple in size and im already at 1/3rd the light height


Then you do what you have to do.


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## BeatenByTheWorld (Mar 5, 2009)

UB Im a first timer to make it 4 weeks into veg, furthest ive ever gotten and I was thinking about topping.

I have a plant that grows 3 branches per node, instead of the seemingly more common 2 i've never seen this and ive at least SPROUTED hundreds of seeds. What will happen when I top this? Or should I leave it as is since it is as of now its own thing.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 5, 2009)

BeatenByTheWorld said:


> UB Im a first timer to make it 4 weeks into veg, furthest ive ever gotten and I was thinking about topping.
> 
> I have a plant that grows 3 branches per node, instead of the seemingly more common 2....


Got any pix?


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## born2killspam (Mar 5, 2009)

Hopefully its female.. When those are they tend to be really good plants, but apparently they don't express as female very often..


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## BeatenByTheWorld (Mar 5, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Got any pix?


No I don't have any pics, and no im not just pulling your dick. Nobody I know has ever heard of this happening.

Its funny though because you'd think it would have more leaves total than another plant from the same bag started at the same time, but they aren't they're almost the same just spread over more 'branches'. This is no special strain, it came from an oz of 'mids' i paid 110 for. Good smoke, not shwag, fair amount of seeds, lighter green, lots of dark orange hairs, dense buds not bricked, trichromes not visible to the naked eye.

I only have a camera phone and idk how to get pics from there to here. Its approx 5 1/2" @ 22 days soil 28 days total life. The stems a good 21/2 inches then the nodes start. 5 nodes total including ones just pushing out. 1 set 1 full leaf 2 little ones
2nd-3rd set 3 full leaves 2 little leaves
4th set 5 full leave, smaller overall
5th node still to small to tell how many is being pushed through.

Like I said there are 3 branches on each node not 2 so X3 those numbers. It seems like its one of the healthiest, and the stem is a nice green under the slightly shedding layer.(whats this btw)

And whats your take on the alum foil on my walls. its either that or bare walls, i have no option for painting, and am alittle over budget on already for mylar. Ever heard of anyone using mirrors?


Thanks for responding man!


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## born2killspam (Mar 5, 2009)

I believe you, but start a thread and post some pics, because these are cool.. Contrary to popular belief, you don't necessarily have a polyploid(triploid), what that plants is expressing is called alternating whorled phytolaxy.. Definately start a thread and post whatever pics you have as it progresses..


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## merahoon (Mar 5, 2009)

I've heard of people using foil but not the best idea due to it crinkling. Theres wrapping paper you can get that is extremely thin mylar which is low quality, but its better than using foil. And, I have also heard of triploids or alternated whorled phytolaxy as born2killspam said. I agree with him too, you should start a thread with it cause there are a lot of people interested in those.


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## BeatenByTheWorld (Mar 5, 2009)

Does anyone know a SAFE site i could send pictures to from my phone for free so I could load them onto the internet?


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## BeatenByTheWorld (Mar 5, 2009)

Im just not gonna top that one right now. I want to make sure I have a good top for a clone and I don't have any root hormone on hand. My theory is that if normal plants get 2 and 4 main colas, should this one not get 3 and 6? I think they'd be smaller than normal 2 or 4 ones because like I said it has almost the same number of leaves as everything else, they're just spread out of 3 branches.


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## merahoon (Mar 6, 2009)

Hey UB I thought I would come to you for my last question. I forgot to ask this in the pollenating thread but you mentioned that you continue to apply the pollen for 3 times during the week. How many weeks should I do this for or would one be enough? Also is the flour used because its a similar texture? And what does heating it up do?


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## GrowingGreenGiant (Mar 7, 2009)

BeatenByTheWorld said:


> Does anyone know a SAFE site i could send pictures to from my phone for free so I could load them onto the internet?


i just send them to my email address and then save them to my photos, its easy and has always worked for me.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 9, 2009)

merahoon said:


> Hey UB I thought I would come to you for my last question. I forgot to ask this in the pollenating thread but you mentioned that you continue to apply the pollen for 3 times during the week. How many weeks should I do this for or would one be enough? Also is the flour used because its a similar texture? And what does heating it up do?


Should have asked this in that thread but not to be anal I'll answer here......

I apply the diluted pollen about 3 times over a course of a few weeks, as new pistils are produced and mature, only to insure that I have a nice batch of seeds. I explained in the archive why the pollen is used, as a carrier. Heating it up first kills insects (weevils) and fungi spores and insures that it is bone dry. IOW, just do it!

Shiny side of foil is fine. I'm a white paint man mahself. 

Good luck,
UB


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## overmyhead (Mar 9, 2009)

UB - reps on the great thread. I have recently fimmed a few plants and was wondering if it's too late to back track and go for the 4 main colas with your method - from a hormone standpoint will that screw with them too hard?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 9, 2009)

overmyhead said:


> UB - reps on the great thread. I have recently fimmed a few plants and was wondering if it's too late to back track and go for the 4 main colas with your method - from a hormone standpoint will that screw with them too hard?


This is all about plant responses. What are you trying to accomplish?


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## born2killspam (Mar 9, 2009)

You can cut them again without problems.. How many nodes are they at?


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## M Blaze (Mar 9, 2009)

overmyhead said:


> UB - reps on the great thread. I have recently fimmed a few plants and was wondering if it's too late to back track and go for the 4 main colas with your method - from a hormone standpoint will that screw with them too hard?


If you FIMmed them then why would you want to top them? You should get at least 4 main colas from the FIM.


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## overmyhead (Mar 9, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> This is all about plant responses. What are you trying to accomplish?


Thanks, I am trying to accomplish maximum yield with a mostly sativa (chocolope) in a tent that is 6.5 feet tall. Also, the simplicity of this technique is appealing. I only want to end up with a few big plants (might only be able to harvest once this year) to make tinctures with. I would love for them to be big bushes and plan on moving to big storage tubs in a week or so.

they were at 4, 5 and 6 nodes when i fimmed them. Some have responded nicely others I didnt cut close enough. but I like the idea of having those four even colas. Maybe I should wait till the next go round.

Also curous about your ideas on flushing. This is my first run and I'm using a tried and true nute formula that an old friend used for many years and got amazing results. It's Green Air's Genesis System. It's not organic, would you use that up till the end (assuming I harvest the tops and let the rest continue to flower like you reccomend?) https://www.greenair.com/browse/fertilizers-and-solutions.html


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## overmyhead (Mar 9, 2009)

M Blaze said:


> If you FIMmed them then why would you want to top them? You should get at least 4 main colas from the FIM.


I was mainly interested in the hormonal response that this process causes and restricting height without a lot of training.


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## born2killspam (Mar 9, 2009)

FIM accomplishes the same thing hormonally, as does LST, and HST.. The difference is with whats left over for those hormones to work with.. 'Cola' is a pretty wishy washy term when plants aren't merely keft to grow naturally.. No plant has 200+ 'colas'.. This method allows the plant to focus on cola production without spreading resources too thin..


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## overmyhead (Mar 10, 2009)

I guess I misunderstood. I thought that there was some special effect from doing it at the second true node as opposed to the 4th or 5th where I fimmed.


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## BeatenByTheWorld (Mar 10, 2009)

After reading the WHOLE thread, what I can gather from Uncle Ben is that cut a at the first node you get 2 colas, 2nd node you get 4. Anything higher than that (nodes) is a gamble for how many 'colas' you get.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 10, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> FIM accomplishes the same thing hormonally, as does LST, and HST.. The difference is with whats left over for those hormones to work with.. 'Cola' is a pretty wishy washy term when plants aren't merely keft to grow naturally.. No plant has 200+ 'colas'.. This method allows the plant to focus on cola production without spreading resources too thin..


Yep, whole different ball game. Guess it's time to define "cola". A cola is made up of ONE chunky stem aka "trunk" from which secondary lateral branching occurs. Flowers arise from the axils of these branches or where the leaf petiole attaches to a stem. IOW, a cola is a collection of buds from one main branch or "trunk", see the photos on the first page. Topping "my way" produces more than one main cola, up to 4. Any more than that induced by the infamous (and unreliable) FIMMing or topping high on the plant or LST does NOT produce a main cola but rather a series of outputs from the points where the branches/petioles attach to a stem, in the axils.

UB


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## overmyhead (Mar 10, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yep, whole different ball game. Guess it's time to define "cola". A cola is made up of ONE chunky stem aka "trunk" from which secondary lateral branching occurs. Flowers arise from the axils of these branches or where the leaf petiole attaches to a stem. IOW, a cola is a collection of buds from one main branch or "trunk", see the photos on the first page. Topping "my way" produces more than one main cola, up to 4. Any more than that induced by the infamous (and unreliable) FIMMing or topping high on the plant or LST does NOT produce a main cola but rather a series of outputs from the points where the branches/petioles attach to a stem, in the axils.
> 
> UB


Right, but in your opinion would it be worth it to go back and top at the second node after fimming above or should I just wait till next time? THanks.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 10, 2009)

overmyhead said:


> they were at 4, 5 and 6 nodes when i fimmed them. Some have responded nicely others I didnt cut close enough. but I like the idea of having those four even colas. Maybe I should wait till the next go round.


If you want my particular plant response, then you need to follow it to the letter.



> Also curous about your ideas on flushing. This is my first run and I'm using a tried and true nute formula that an old friend used for many years and got amazing results. It's Green Air's Genesis System. It's not organic, would you use that up till the end (assuming I harvest the tops and let the rest continue to flower like you reccomend?) https://www.greenair.com/browse/fertilizers-and-solutions.html


I believe "flushing" just before harvest is a myth, another marketing scheme conjured up by the Dutch to sell products made for producing "tastier bud" and good fodder for forum talk. Only way to find out is to "flush" some, not others and try 'em. 

Since it's healthy leaves that produce bud, not snake oils, I fertilize right up to harvest, anything to keep the leaves healthy and green is my MO. There is a side benefit too, which I practice - by keeping most of the leaves healthy and green until harvest, I can take out the solid colas on the first harvest, place the bottom part of the plant back under the lights to bulk up and mature the airy lower buds and then harvest them when they're ready. Trust me, it can make quite a difference in total plant yield and Mel Franks has documented that mid to lower buds can be more potent than those found at the top of the plant.

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 10, 2009)

BeatenByTheWorld said:


> After reading the WHOLE thread, what I can gather from Uncle Ben is that cut a at the first node you get 2 colas, 2nd node you get 4. Anything higher than that (nodes) is a gamble for how many 'colas' you get.


You got it, thought I made it quite clear on page one.  Like I explained, you cut above the 5th node and higher, and you don't have "colas" in the purist sense of the word, you have a missmash of buds. See me standing behind that plant in my avatar sig, that's what's called a (single) cola fellers.


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## overmyhead (Mar 10, 2009)

Thanks for all of your time and effort helping others. To make sure I have it staright, you think I should wait till next time since I've already fimmed? Do you notice any difference in taste of your buds vs someone who flushes? The whole thing sounds crazy to me - i mean do farmers pull up their veggies and plant them in pure h2o before harvest? I dont think so.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 10, 2009)

overmyhead said:


> To make sure I have it staright, you think I should wait till next time since I've already fimmed?


*YES!


*Git your happy ass back to page 1 and 2 and READ.


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## merahoon (Mar 10, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Should have asked this in that thread but not to be anal I'll answer here......


 
Sorry about that man. Thank you once again though!


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## overmyhead (Mar 10, 2009)

I did read (almost every post) but couldnt seem to find an answer to that particular question. Sorry if I missed something and I wish I would've read this thread sooner. Thanks again.


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## merahoon (Mar 10, 2009)

I took a few pics of two of my plants that I topped at the second node. I trained the sativas branches outward somewhat so the inside axils (I belive thats what their called..) could get light and grow as well too. Check em' out. Oh I also threw in a pic of my dog scout chewing on the part I topped lol.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 10, 2009)

merahoon, looks like you've got it. Just a thought, plan to stake pretty soon. The weight of the colas as they flower is usually enough to pull them outwards, especially with sativas. Looks like you got a hip dog....gives new meaning to "dog bone". 

overmyhead, it's all on page 1 and 2. Once you FIM such that you have multiple branches, the hormones that govern apical dominance are all screwed up. You'll not get 4 main colas, just a bunch of stuff.

Good luck fellers,
Ben


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## born2killspam (Mar 10, 2009)

Nice dog, but that picture is more identifiable/incriminating.. Just a thought..


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## merahoon (Mar 10, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Nice dog, but that picture is more identifiable/incriminating.. Just a thought..


 
Oh yeah, dont know why I wasn't thinking that lol. Better safe than sorry.


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## 420weedman (Mar 10, 2009)

interesting


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## monkz (Mar 10, 2009)

yo dude your thread is amazing...
my plants are 5weeks old, i wana top them to get 4 colas so do i cut above the 2nd true node to do this? and my first true node has started to dry up so do i do it on what is now the 3rd true node and what WILL be the 2nd true node soon enough?

thanx


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## overmyhead (Mar 10, 2009)

Thanks, next time then! And I'll have something to compare it too.


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## M Blaze (Mar 11, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yep, whole different ball game. Guess it's time to define "cola". A cola is made up of ONE chunky stem aka "trunk" from which secondary lateral branching occurs. Flowers arise from the axils of these branches or where the leaf petiole attaches to a stem. IOW, a cola is a collection of buds from one main branch or "trunk", see the photos on the first page. Topping "my way" produces more than one main cola, up to 4. Any more than that induced by the infamous (and unreliable) FIMMing or topping high on the plant or LST does NOT produce a main cola but rather a series of outputs from the points where the branches/petioles attach to a stem, in the axils.
> 
> UB


Just a few questions for you about some of those comments:

How is FIMming unreliable?

How many 'Main Colas' would you say are on this FIMmed plant? (I know its a stupid question to ask because you cant tell from that pic )







These are those colas close up 








Im not knocking your methods at all because I have also done this with great results, I am just curious as always


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 11, 2009)

M Blaze said:


> Just a few questions for you about some of those comments:
> 
> How is FIMming unreliable?


1. For starts, no one seems to be able to agree with the method. I'd like to know where you cut, at what point on the plant. AS depicted in a thread on Topping/FIMing, cutting thru some leaves and then attributing normal axial output to "the act" doesn't cut it with me (excuse the pun).

2. Some folks who FIM get no to very little output, some get up to 8 points of output if they slice thru a node. That's unreliable as opposed to my topping method which is pretty much 100% reliable.

Which brings me to the question which I used to ask over and over again at OG and CW, "where do the dormant buds lie that supposedly are activated? Did your procedure have a direct cause-n-effect on the plant's response?" It would be of great help to me to have a university study to look at as opposed to forum anecdotal evidence with no photos showing the actual plant response. I see a couple of images showing where one is supposed to cut have been removed.

FIMing
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a.html

Nice garden BTW.

UB


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## merahoon (Mar 11, 2009)

Hey UB after cutting above the second node and creating the new 4 main branches... could you cut those branches in the same fashion resulting in 16 tops?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 11, 2009)

merahoon said:


> Hey UB after cutting above the second node and creating the new 4 main branches... could you cut those branches in the same fashion resulting in 16 tops?


Yep..........


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## monkz (Mar 11, 2009)

16 tops thats crazy, your yield would be insane wouldnt it UB?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 11, 2009)

monkz said:


> 16 tops thats crazy, your yield would be insane wouldnt it UB?


Not necessarily. It's all about The Balance, as in having sufficient roots to support top growth, light distribution, total amount of foliage, etc. The 16 "colas" will be quite small.


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## born2killspam (Mar 11, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Not necessarily. It's all about The Balance, as in having sufficient roots to support top growth, light distribution, total amount of foliage, etc. The 16 "colas" will be quite small.


I've seen plants grow secondary root systems from broken shoots on plants toppled in wet ground.. Essentially the end of the cut closest to the plants cloned, and the plants (happened to two) grew kind of arched/LST'ed.. It was very cool, and the grower figures he got a better yield than he would have without the early season mishaps.. I honestly don't know if the root systems even benefitted the plant, or whether they merely didn't hurt it.. 
Strawberries have an interesting natural cloning process thats kind of similar, but their crawlers break out new individual plants..
Regarding FIM, here you go UB.. You'll see it really is just topping, but pretty much the exact opposite school of opinion as you regarding how much to cut.. I've definately seen the best vigor come from plants grown way up, and cut way down as you direct.. M Blaze is just plan better than I ever was, and most ppl ever will be..


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## 420weedman (Mar 11, 2009)

im going to try topping right at the second node with some clones that i have to compare to what i have been doing with my bigger plants.

combination of fim/toping and then super cropping right before flowering ... and into flowering. 

im curious what kind of results you had with fimming/topping and what kind of light your using ?

here is 2 recent ones i have going .... 4-6 weeks into flowering now
smaller one has about 16 or so tops and the large one close to 30

im using a 400w hps. im expecting around 2z for the smaller one and 4 on the larger one.
the first one i did had about 12 tops and yielded close to 4 oz dry, the link is in my sig if you want to check it out

anyway here are some pics and ill be back with more when i try your way 















big bush


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## Katatawnic (Mar 11, 2009)

In a few days (_a week tops_) my plants will have grown the first 6 "true" nodes, and they'll be ready to pinch/snip.

The only stupid question is the one that isn't asked (_within reason, of course! lol_), so I'm posting this photo to verify that I'm correct as to where to pinch/snip.... I'd rather ask a question for which one may think the answer is obvious than to screw it up by not being thorough. 

(Sorry for the lack of clarity/constrast, but my digital camera is en route to its manufacturer to be replaced [_Polaroid follows through w/warranties, YAY!_] and my camcorder takes great videos but not-so-great stills.  Add to that that I had to raise the *large* leaves in order to view the nodes, and without a flash there was too much shadow cast from my hand.)

_*Thanks in advance for any/all advice!*_


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## Katatawnic (Mar 11, 2009)

420weedman said:


> the first one i did had about 12 tops and yielded close to 4 oz dry


 How tall was the plant? (_Mine will only grow to 24" or slightly less._)

Were the resulting the buds very small, average, or somewhere in between?

What was the quality of the buds? (_I know that can be subjective, but I'm still curious. lol_)


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## M Blaze (Mar 11, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> 1. For starts, no one seems to be able to agree with the method. I'd like to know where you cut, at what point on the plant. AS depicted in a thread on Topping/FIMing, cutting thru some leaves and then attributing normal axial output to "the act" doesn't cut it with me (excuse the pun).
> 
> 2. Some folks who FIM get no to very little output, some get up to 8 points of output if they slice thru a node. That's unreliable as opposed to my topping method which is pretty much 100% reliable.
> 
> ...


I know of many people who do agree with using the FIM method but thats why its called the 'Fuck I Missed' method. If you can do it right then the results are reliable depending on how you intend to grow it. As I said I have also Topped with this method you use and have had good results but I just like FIMming results better.

Next grow I will FIM one plant, Top one and let the other grow naturally and I will document the whole thing because it will be a very interesting thing to watch with how big I grow the plants. It wont be for about another 3 months because its too late for me to do it to my current grow but I will do it.


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## 420weedman (Mar 11, 2009)

Katatawnic said:


> How tall was the plant? (_Mine will only grow to 24" or slightly less._)
> 
> Were the resulting the buds very small, average, or somewhere in between?
> 
> What was the quality of the buds? (_I know that can be subjective, but I'm still curious. lol_)


you can check out her life here 
https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/153144-first-harvest-1-plant-88days.html

it ended up being around 30 inches tall,
buds were pretty nice the very tops being about 7-8g dry each
it was some good quality mid-range buds .... got from bag seed did not appear to be any super strain


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## monkz (Mar 12, 2009)

hey UB i just wanted to know something important... today i found out that only one of my 5 plants were female (bad times lol) and the plant had 6 true nodes so what i did was take a cut at the top below the last 2nodes and used it as a clone (its rather small) and then i took another cut above the 2nd node of the actual plant which left me with two halves so i planted the top half which also has 2 true nodes... couple of questions... will the two cuttings i took root well? and also, when i took the large cutting i looked at it and it seemed to be hollow inside... is this normal? and finally like you said topping above the 2nd node gives you 4 tops so i assume if they do root each cutting will give me 4 tops... but can i also top each of these tops to give me 16tops and an overall better yield?

please help me out mate


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## born2killspam (Mar 12, 2009)

You can turn one large cutting into two cuttings that way, and yes its supposed to be hollow, but you shouldn't be looking at it, you should plant it immediately to avoid air from damaging that hollow tube..


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 12, 2009)

monkz said:


> hey UB i just wanted to know something important... today i found out that only one of my 5 plants were female (bad times lol) and the plant had 6 true nodes so what i did was take a cut at the top below the last 2nodes and used it as a clone (its rather small) and then i took another cut above the 2nd node of the actual plant which left me with two halves so i planted the top half which also has 2 true nodes... couple of questions... will the two cuttings i took root well?


As well as any other, depending on their treatment.



> and also, when i took the large cutting i looked at it and it seemed to be hollow inside... is this normal?


Yep.



> and finally like you said topping above the 2nd node gives you 4 tops so i assume if they do root each cutting will give me 4 tops...


Only if those rooted cuttings are topped above their 2nd node. Rooted cuttings (clones) is tricky. Like a seedling, let them go for about 5 or 6 nodes, and then pinch out above the second node. Veg as usual.



> but can i also top each of these tops to give me 16tops and an overall better yield?


Like I said, the yield of 16 colas versus 4 main colas regarding yield is "iffy". 16 colas will be much smaller than 4 so your mileage may vary. Plants have a way of finding their balance.

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 12, 2009)

Katatawnic said:


> In a few days (_a week tops_) my plants will have grown the first 6 "true" nodes, and they'll be ready to pinch/snip.
> 
> The only stupid question is the one that isn't asked (_within reason, of course! lol_), so I'm posting this photo to verify that I'm correct as to where to pinch/snip.... I'd rather ask a question for which one may think the answer is obvious than to screw it up by not being thorough.
> 
> ...


"Snip" point looks good to me, with a caveat - what's going on with #1? Is that node #2, meaning "is that very young foliage I see"? 

Have fun,
UB


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## Katatawnic (Mar 13, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> "Snip" point looks good to me, with a caveat - what's going on with #1? Is that node #2, meaning "is that very young foliage I see"?


 Yes, it's very young foliage.... ungermed seed placed in my AeroGarden on Feb. 20, and already over 1" sprout two days later.  I'm not snipping just yet. Just breaking the nasty "_doing my homework at the last second_" habit I had back in school.  Hence my inquiring about this now, before it's time to top instead of cutting and then asking if I'd hit the right spot... that'd be kinda like having sex and then asking about birth control. 

The leaves from the node I'd marked as "1" aren't very visible in this shot, because of my needing to lift the leaves out of the way so that the node points could be seen. I put up this photo because I'm a bit unsure as to exactly which is the 1st *"true"* node.



Uncle Ben said:


> The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count.


 OK, here we go.... are the cotyledons the same as what I've seen others refer to as the "embryos" or is it the next one up? If the cotyledons are the same as the "embryos" then I've gone up one too far, and therefore would be cutting above the 3rd node instead of the 2nd. Which, I'm now guessing, is why you asked if #1 is actually #2.  I took two shots for marking what I perceived to be the 1st/2nd "true" nodes; I'll attach both of them in case one is easier to discern than the other.

I could just experiment till the cows come home, but that'd be senseless if I'm going to bother reading detailed instructions for a particular techique. lol


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 13, 2009)

Katatawnic said:


> The leaves from the node I'd marked as "1" aren't very visible in this shot, because of my needing to lift the leaves out of the way so that the node points could be seen. I put up this photo because I'm a bit unsure as to exactly which is the 1st *"true"* node.




It's the one above the cotyledons aka endosperm or food storage for the embryo, aka seedling. I do not count the cotyledons as a true node as dormant bud output is iffy at best.

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 13, 2009)

Some eye candy fer ya'll on one of my crosses grown outdoors - *Positronics Haze X Sensi Skunk* ~

*Seedling in germ cup topped to get 4 main colas. Notice how leggie it is:*







* Upcanned into 2nd (and final) pot. Notice 4 outputs which will later be the 4 main colas. Also note that I buried the entire "trunk" up to the first node for additional root output:*






*
Just beginning to flower. Main colas producing alot of secondary branches:*






*
Results - wheelbarrow full of sativa buds from the 4 main colas. (Yes, sativa bud is airy):*


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## Katatawnic (Mar 13, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's the one above the cotyledons aka endosperm or food storage for the embryo, aka seedling.


 OK, I had a feeling I might've been one node too high *after* I'd posted the first photo/question.  Good thing I double-checked, eh? 

Thank you again, UB!


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## born2killspam (Mar 13, 2009)

You crossed the parents yourself??


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## 420weedman (Mar 13, 2009)

420weedman said:


> im curious what kind of results you had with fimming/topping and what kind of light your using ?


guess you missed this on last page ... i guess your growing outside, do you have any pics of what your topped/fimed plants did


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 13, 2009)

Measure twice, cut once.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 13, 2009)

420weedman said:


> guess you missed this on last page ... i guess your growing outside, do you have any pics of what your topped/fimed plants did


I used to grow indoors with a 1,000W of HID's. Last shot was outdoors. Nothing like dumping some water in a pot and not worrying about it. 

I don't do *F*uck* I M*issed. There is a big difference between FIM and my method of topping. 

Regarding harvest, I posted results on the first page, guess you need to start there. Here's one such outdoor grown cola out of the 4, 25 oz of bud total and a closeup of typical sativa bud structure.


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## born2killspam (Mar 13, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Measure twice, cut once.


I've never really agreed with that.. I'm a fan of measuring twice, making one conservative cut, then shaving down the little bit extra.. Or atleast thats my method for cutting lumber..


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## 420weedman (Mar 13, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I used to grow indoors with a 1,000W of HID's. Last shot was outdoors. Nothing like dumping some water in a pot and not worrying about it.
> 
> I don't do *F*uck* I M*issed. There is a big difference between FIM and my method of topping.
> 
> Regarding harvest, I posted results on the first page, guess you need to start there. Here's one such outdoor grown cola out of the 4, 25 oz of bud total and a closeup of typical sativa bud structure.


yea i saw the first page, but you have been saying how you dont like the results from fim/topping and you do it your way.... i thought you were speaking from experience with both.....

i would love to put my fim/toped/scd bush out side and see what she would do ... but its not possible for me.

anyway like i said in my first post ill compare the 2 methods then  but its only a 400 w


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 13, 2009)

420weedman said:


> yea i saw the first page, but you have been saying how you dont like the results from fim/topping and you do it your way.... i thought you were speaking from experience with both.....
> 
> i would love to put my fim/toped/scd bush out side and see what she would do ... but its not possible for me.
> 
> anyway like i said in my first post ill compare the 2 methods then  but its only a 400 w


I have tried both. FIMming to me means cutting right thru a node and hoping to get multiple outputs from dormant buds adjacent to the cut. To me, it's just another ill conceived forum drill meant to sound techie and cool but lacking any degree of reliability or substance.

Nothing wrong with 400 watts, IF, you have a well designed horizontal hood. I grow my best weed with about 25-35 watts per s.f. (see the Griffin's Spin-out link here https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html ) but then again I tweak with a light meter, use moveable reflective side panels to harvest as much usable light as possible, paint the floor white and other tweaks. Ever realized that cannabis gets the least amount of light during its flowering stage? Think outside of the box.

I hear that born2killspam, especiallly with trim work. You should have seen my retail store as we built it. I first hired a guy who was all talk to help me put together the walls up, nothing fell on 4' centers, so after I fired him and hired some pros and got around to putting up the roof covering and outside wall paneling that is dependnet on studs falling on 4' centers to nail too, you should have heard the cussing, moaning and groaning when they found them off by inches either way.  

Good luck,
UB


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## 420weedman (Mar 13, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I have tried both. FIMming to me means cutting right thru a node and hoping to get multiple outputs from dormant buds adjacent to the cut. To me, it's just another ill conceived forum drill meant to sound techie and cool but lacking any degree of reliability or substance.
> 
> Nothing wrong with 400 watts, IF, you have a well designed horizontal hood. I grow my best weed with about 25-35 watts per s.f. (see the Griffin's Spin-out link here https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html ) but then again I tweak with a light meter, use moveable reflective side panels to harvest as much usable light as possible, paint the floor white and other tweaks. Ever realized that cannabis gets the least amount of light during its flowering stage? Think outside of the box.


"another ill conceived forum drill meant to sound techie and cool but lacking any degree of reliability or substance"

from what ive seen so far ... yeild is greatly improved vs a single cola
i top or fim .. somtimes i just get 2 shoots sometime 3-4... and this is done on the side braches as they catch up to the top as well.
the big one on the previous page has been topped many times over the past 2 months...

everytime theres at least another 2 shoots which turn into SOLID budsites as soon as i put it to flower. being closest to the light ... they get the biggest and theres a shit load of them.... so i see a high degree of reliability and substance 

i have a good eazy-cool hood and my 4x4 room has mylar on 3 sides and plants are on a white table.


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## born2killspam (Mar 13, 2009)

> I have tried both. FIMming to me means cutting right thru a node and hoping to get multiple outputs from dormant buds adjacent to the cut.


Take a look at the pic I linked to in post 296.. If done 'properly' as per that pic, you're just missing the actual node.. But thats a REALLY small area to work in..
Apparently the Fuck I Missed term arose because the person actually meant to top, but by todays standards, the method should be called Fuck I Didn't Miss..
And I kind of question the Fuck I Missed term, because back in the overgrow days, the method was out there, and ppl always asked what it stood for, but nobody knew.. Some ppl believed they were random letters for ppl to ponder like the Lost numbers..
M Blaze, if you get predictable results when you FIM, what do you use to make the cut? A scalpel of sorts?


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## monkz (Mar 13, 2009)

hey UB how my plants are 5weeks in veg, thanx for all the help btw, 
i topped them like you said so how much longer do i wait till i flower coz they look small now since theres only 2 nodes..
will the yield be small if i flower now?


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## merahoon (Mar 13, 2009)

I would at least wait a week for them to recover. You can always yield more if you let your plants go a little longer.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 13, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Take a look at the pic I linked to in post 296.. If done 'properly' as per that pic, you're just missing the actual node..


Above or below?



monkz said:


> hey UB how my plants are 5weeks in veg, thanx for all the help btw,
> i topped them like you said so how much longer do i wait till i flower coz they look small now since theres only 2 nodes..
> will the yield be small if i flower now?


Your call like merahoon said. The more the foliage, the more the bud.

UB


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## cca580 (Mar 14, 2009)

WOW.. guys.. this is by far the best and most informative post / thread line i have read (and i read a lot) the multitude of topics touched on and the simple and precise explanations are above and beyond. I have grown in the past with different methods .. soil / hydro , indoors / outdoors .. and will be again in the future. 

UB and born2killspam wow.. thanks for your patients and more from the repeat questions .. I just finished reading every post from page one to thirty three .. you guys rock . and everyone else here who has posted some great ideas and information. By far one of the best threads


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## born2killspam (Mar 14, 2009)

If done according to the pic you're cutting just above the youngest developed node.. You aren't actually removing a node, only the apical meristem.. This allows the four new outputs from the two youngest nodes to grow, and prevents the spacing growth between those two youngest nodes from developing.. 
Topping at the second node is different in the sense that the internode distance was given an opportunity to develop, your colas grow from two distinct levels..


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2009)

cca580 said:


> WOW.. guys.. this is by far the best and most informative post / thread line i have read (and i read a lot) the multitude of topics touched on and the simple and precise explanations are above and beyond. I have grown in the past with different methods .. soil / hydro , indoors / outdoors .. and will be again in the future.


Nice bunch of folks, eh? Thanks for playing along. 



> UB and born2killspam wow.. thanks for your patients...


So far this old doc has had no lawsuits. Can't raise 'em from the dead, just a dose of experience based on no-spin is all it takes.



> ..... and more from the repeat questions .. I just finished reading every post from page one to thirty three .. you guys rock . and everyone else here who has posted some great ideas and information. By far one of the best threads


Wow! That's alot of reading! Here's more if ya got the stomach. I'll not get into the nasty politics of what went down, just refer you to this thread for informational purposes only. My approach is simply stated in post #2. 
https://www.planetganja.com/highsociety/showthread.php?t=33786

Make it a great day......


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> If done according to the pic you're cutting just above the youngest developed node.. You aren't actually removing a node, only the apical meristem.. This allows the four new outputs from the two youngest nodes to grow, and prevents the spacing growth between those two youngest nodes from developing..
> Topping at the second node is different in the sense that the internode distance was given an opportunity to develop, your colas grow from two distinct levels..


Well said brudder, thanks for the input. 

UB


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## born2killspam (Mar 15, 2009)

Thats why I was so impressed with your height uniformity on your 4 cola tops.. I couldn't tell which were from the upper node, and which were from the first node..


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Thats why I was so impressed with your height uniformity on your 4 cola tops.. I couldn't tell which were from the upper node, and which were from the first node..


I have done this a bunch of times and have found that the end results (size and finished colas height) are pretty uniform. For starts, when you do da dirty deed (repeat dat 10 times) da internodes of node 1 and 2 are usually only inches apart, plus the apical dominance thingie aka "distribution of the auxins" is also very uniform. That translates into simultaneous foliar output from the two node sites. You would think that node #2 would automatically be the dominant point on the plant but it doesn't work out that way.


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## GrowingGreenGiant (Mar 15, 2009)

im high as poop right now and i tried to read your reply, honestly i have no idea what you just said.


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## born2killspam (Mar 15, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I have done this a bunch of times and have found that the end results (size and finished colas height) are pretty uniform. For starts, when you do da dirty deed (repeat dat 10 times) da internodes of node 1 and 2 are usually only inches apart, plus the apical dominance thingie aka "distribution of the auxins" is also very uniform. That translates into simultaneous foliar output from the two node sites. You would think that node #2 would automatically be the dominant point on the plant but it doesn't work out that way.


How diverse is your strain experience with this??


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## born2killspam (Mar 15, 2009)

GrowingGreenGiant said:


> im high as poop right now and i tried to read your reply, honestly i have no idea what you just said.


Proper botanical jargon really does help to get a point across.. Its tough to find a happy medium that properly defines the anatomy, and is understandable to everybody.. 
But the terms are easy to google, and knowing them really helps when you're trying to pull usable info from scientific sources etc..


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> How diverse is your strain experience with this??


Pure sativa (Zamal and Dalat Vietnamese) to hybrids. Plant response is the same.


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## oldMcDonald (Mar 18, 2009)

i got a question about the nodes, when u say "true" nodes, what makes them true?


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## born2killspam (Mar 18, 2009)

If you know what a node is (bulbous areas where branching occurs), then all nodes are true except the very lowest where those rounded seedling leaves grew.. The first true node is next above that..


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## oldMcDonald (Mar 18, 2009)

k, thats what i assumed, but just had to make sure so i get 4 colas


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## monkz (Mar 20, 2009)

yo UB, 
iv started growing Snow White, theyre currently sprouting in peat pots,
i was wondering if white strains respond well to topping?
and btw i topped my big bud plant so that i get 16 tops, well see what happens when i put it in flowering


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 21, 2009)

monkz said:


> yo UB,
> iv started growing Snow White, theyre currently sprouting in peat pots,
> i was wondering if white strains respond well to topping?


Strain doesn't matter. If it's cannabis, it will do it to it. 



> and btw i topped my big bud plant so that i get 16 tops, well see what happens when i put it in flowering


You'll get a bushy plant consisting of alot of small colas, not 4 *main* colas.

As an aside, how big are those peat pots and are they the kind with thin walls or chunky?

Have fun,
UB


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## monkz (Mar 21, 2009)

they the ones with thin walls, so to get the best response im assuming its just topping to get 4 colas then?


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## GrowingGreenGiant (Mar 22, 2009)

16 colas, jesus. too bad they're goin to be hella small


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 23, 2009)

monkz said:


> they the ones with thin walls, so to get the best response im assuming its just topping to get 4 colas then?


Not sure what the question is.


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## merahoon (Mar 24, 2009)

Is there a link that you have that can send me somewhere talking about plant hormonal responses?


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## born2killspam (Mar 24, 2009)

Which hormone?? Which plant?? There is a ton of info on the net, and alot of anecdotal experiments.. Just google the hormone name, the results will come..

Edit: Oh I get it, you're interested in the auxin responses associated with topping..


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## Ganga Grower (Mar 24, 2009)

Would this work on a plant 12/12 lighting from the seed, or would it have troubles due to the lack of vegetative time?


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## monkz (Mar 24, 2009)

yo ub i wana keep a plant as a mother, im thinkin of keeping the plant which would grow 16tops if i put it in flowering, the reason for this is that i assume there would be more outputs for me to clone in the future from this plant than from a plant which is not topped at all... am i correct?


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## billdo (Mar 24, 2009)

*best

thread

ever*


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## billdo (Mar 24, 2009)

*best

thread

ever*


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 25, 2009)

monkz said:


> yo ub i wana keep a plant as a mother, im thinkin of keeping the plant which would grow 16tops if i put it in flowering, the reason for this is that i assume there would be more outputs for me to clone in the future from this plant than from a plant which is not topped at all... am i correct?


Experience is the best teacher. Try it......


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## born2killspam (Mar 25, 2009)

How many clones will you need? Whats your grow area like?


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## lurkmaster (Mar 25, 2009)

I read through about the first 10 pages or so and started getting tired of sifting through posts to see if anyone asked this, so I figured I would just ask. (sorry if its a repeat)

How do you define a main cola...?

If you top a plant at the second node, and get 4 'main' colas are those really going to be the same size as the main cola would have been on the plant if you didn't top it?

Do you get as many smaller shoots when you top it versus when you just let the plant do its thang?

How much more do you yield (relative %) by topping to get 2/4 colas versus leaving it alone?

I am interested in this, but I am a little bit skeptical about it (probably for no real reason)

Its just the concept that you are somehow duplicating whats supposed to be the single largest part of the plant that I'm unsure about, just doesn't seem like if you split it up into multiple 'main' colas that you would really have an increase in yield that is proportional to the # of main colas... (2 main colas would mean you would get double the bud you would have gotten off one main cola)

So I guess it all boils down to this one... do you sacrifice any other part of plant growth when the plant focuses its resources on making multiple main colas?


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## born2killspam (Mar 25, 2009)

All else equal, no they won't be as big as a single could have been, but they'll be well more than 1/4 that, and when topping for four of them, they'll resemble a main cola a hell of alot more than they will a nug..
About your other questions, anything above the snip should grow as if it was unsnipped.. At the tip of any shoot, auxin is created, and it travels downward, telling the plant to dedicate its resources to growing tall so it can compete for light in nature come flowering time.. Snipping the top cuts off the auxin supply, and cuts off that message causing the plant to grow bushy instead.. But each new shoot will have a new supply of auxin and tries to act as if its the only top.. If you snip those, you can follow the downward path and see what 'might' be affected, but results won't be as predictable/uniform.. Those are the gems of UB's technique..


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## lurkmaster (Mar 25, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> All else equal, no they won't be as big as a single could have been, but they'll be well more than 1/4 that, and when topping for four of them, they'll resemble a main cola a hell of alot more than they will a nug..
> About your other questions, anything above the snip should grow as if it was unsnipped.. At the tip of any shoot, auxin is created, and it travels downward, telling the plant to dedicate its resources to growing tall so it can compete for light in nature come flowering time.. Snipping the top cuts off the auxin supply, and cuts off that message causing the plant to grow bushy instead.. But each new shoot will have a new supply of auxin and tries to act as if its the only top.. If you snip those, you can follow the downward path and see what 'might' be affected, but results won't be as predictable/uniform.. Those are the gems of UB's technique..


Thanks for the quick response.


Also....



A few more questions just popped into my head..

I was planning on throwing my plants into flower when they hit around 8" (Given that I will have very tight node spacing, I hit node 9 at 8" last grow)

If I top my plant should I just veg it until the new tips are the desired height? Or throw it into flower right after I top it..?

Do I need to veg my plants after I top it for [some interval] before I can put it into flowering? Or is it good to go whenever..?


And lastly...

Is vertical growth in flowering affected by topping?


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## born2killspam (Mar 25, 2009)

I'm a firm believer in waiting until nodes begin to alternate before flipping unless lolipopping is the goal.. Its a sign of sexual maturity of sorts, but damn node 9, 8"? They should be alternating already.. I'm quite impressed actually, what strain??
When to flip is a SERIOUS learning experience that differs with every seedling.. DEFINATELY DON'T wait until they're desired final height, but amount of stretch in flower can vary drastically..
If you got no clue at this point in time, and aren't afraid of running out of vertical space then a good starting point would be to snip, then 7-10 days later, flip them.. Thats definately enough time to get the plant back to routine so it can make the most of its flowering period..
As for your last question, thats hard to answer absolutely, but generally no since you aren't cutting during 12/12 at all..The fact that further topping yields unpredictable results eludes to the fact that things aren't exactly the same as before though..


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## lurkmaster (Mar 26, 2009)

I actually have no clue as to what the strain was, I'm damn sure that it was a heavy indica though. It was just a bagseed from some unknown dank I picked up that ended up having seeds in it, wasn't a very memorable smoke though, only picked up a gram and smoked it pretty much right when I got it along with some other shit my buddies had.

Was working with ~17,000 lumens in 2 sq feet of space (1'x2').

I had my cfls about 3" away from my plants, most of the nodes were less than an inch apart. 

Node 9 wasn't really fully matured though, it had just sprouted out of the top. It was an extremely dense, chubby plant with tons of growth shooting up from the secondary nodes. It was painful chopping it up after I found the ball sacs, I got my hands on some really really good genetics. A buddy of mine is growing my last seed from the batch, going to snag some clones from him later on for sure.

I had just been assuming the plants are going to be 3x the size they went into flowering when they are done.

Ideally, I have about 25" of max plant height including space for lights, without lights I have another 10" to go. 

If my plants get too big I can always take out one of my shelving nodes and add another foot or so, but I don't have the mylar to cover that area so I'd have to buy some crap and re-organize my grow space again.

Right now I've got some big buddha blue cheese and paradise white berry fems growing. (indica dominant strains)

I was originally going to grow the last bagseed myself and LST the plant to get some extra yield (started this plant 2 weeks early in preparation for LST) But since it wasn't feminized and my other 2 seeds were, I didn't want to risk root entanglement in my res with the other plant if it went male so I just gave it to my buddy after 2 weeks.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 27, 2009)

lurkmaster said:


> I read through about the first 10 pages or so and started getting tired of sifting through posts to see if anyone asked this, so I figured I would just ask. (sorry if its a repeat)
> 
> How do you define a main cola...?


That was about 3 pages back.



> If you top a plant at the second node, and get 4 'main' colas are those really going to be the same size as the main cola would have been on the plant if you didn't top it?


If the root system is healthy, large, efficient, etc...... they should be, it's all relative. Whether you have one main cola or 4, flower production is relative to your root mass and health, same goes with the foliage. Just a thought, you guys should really focus only on a plant's roots and leaves.



> I am interested in this, but I am a little bit skeptical about it (probably for no real reason) Its just the concept that you are somehow duplicating whats supposed to be the single largest part of the plant that I'm unsure about, just doesn't seem like if you split it up into multiple 'main' colas that you would really have an increase in yield that is proportional to the # of main colas... (2 main colas would mean you would get double the bud you would have gotten off one main cola)


You've got nothing to lose. Do the drill with a control group and come to your own conclusions.

Good luck,
UB


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## lurkmaster (Mar 27, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> If the root system is healthy, large, efficient, etc...... they should be, it's all relative. Whether you have one main cola or 4, flower production is relative to your root mass and health, same goes with the foliage. Just a thought, you guys should really focus only on a plant's roots and leaves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great info man, didn't really think about that.

I am definitely going to be topping my current plants at node 2 when they get a little bigger.


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## Mahoney (Mar 28, 2009)

Hey UB thanks for all the help! I topped them all two days ago and am surprised that it didn't seem to have any noticeable negative effect... 

The new 'colas' are going great guns. This is my first grow and it's great to see so much happening so fast - it's fascinating. I think I have found what I want to do for the rest of my life. 

Props to ya UB! I'll think of you when I fire up my first homegrown!


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## CommieChase (Mar 28, 2009)

Great thread UB! +Rep! Just a question about growing sativas in small spaces using this technique. How tall would a sativa grow (pretty pure hybrid; Super Silver Haze, JillyBean, ect.) if you top at the 2nd node for 4 colas? I have 5' 3"H to work with, and am looking into growing sativas. Also, what about pruning? Do you recommend it, or is it not needed when using this topping method? Thanks for the help!


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## born2killspam (Mar 28, 2009)

IMO for sativas, 5' is enough to pull it off, but not enough to pull it off without alot of effort.. Can't exactly let them grow much beyond 3' in that space..
Also, 90% of my indoor experience is with clones, and they tend to be easier on height issues.. Beginner growers are surely going to need more vertical space than the bare minimum, its almost clockwork.. As you learn your indoor plants, each crop tends to get shorter, and stouter..


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 29, 2009)

Mahoney said:


> Hey UB thanks for all the help! I topped them all two days ago and am surprised that it didn't seem to have any noticeable negative effect...


Of course not. Not trying to be difficult, but why would you think the act of topping would be harmful to a plant's health? You're not chopping off the hands of a concert pianist. 



> The new 'colas' are going great guns. This is my first grow and it's great to see so much happening so fast - it's fascinating. I think I have found what I want to do for the rest of my life.
> 
> Props to ya UB! I'll think of you when I fire up my first homegrown!


Great to hear things are working out for you!

Good luck,
UB


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## Jerry Garcia (Mar 29, 2009)

Hey UB,

Thanks for the great thread. Good stuff.

I'm about to top two of my girls as an experiment (I'm on my first grow, so it's all one big experiment I guess): one has 6 nodes, one has 7.5ish. The one with 6 should be fine, but what about the 7? Can I still get 4 colas? You said ~20 pages back that topping after the plant has 5-6 nodes will not necessarily produce the results you outlined, but it still could, right? I'm just going to do it anyway I think.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 29, 2009)

Jerry Garcia said:


> Hey UB,
> 
> Thanks for the great thread. Good stuff.
> 
> I'm about to top two of my girls as an experiment (I'm on my first grow, so it's all one big experiment I guess): one has 6 nodes, one has 7.5ish. The one with 6 should be fine, but what about the 7? Can I still get 4 colas? You said ~20 pages back that topping after the plant has 5-6 nodes will not necessarily produce the results you outlined, but it still could, right? I'm just going to do it anyway I think.


Top above the 2nd node whether you have 4, 6, or 8 nodes. 

Happy experimenting, Igor,
UB


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## DodgeDread (Mar 30, 2009)

hey ben, i've got a white widow i've topped above the 2nd as you said (originally had 5 nodes) but the whole stem is hollow and you can see right down the middle of the stem! Is this normal? should i try sealing the hole somehow? Thanks in advance!


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## Jerry Garcia (Mar 30, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Top above the 2nd node whether you have 4, 6, or 8 nodes.
> 
> Happy experimenting, Igor,
> UB


Thanks for the reassurance UB! And the quick response!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 30, 2009)

DodgeDread said:


> hey ben, i've got a white widow i've topped above the 2nd as you said (originally had 5 nodes) but the whole stem is hollow and you can see right down the middle of the stem! Is this normal? should i try sealing the hole somehow? Thanks in advance!


It's normal and will have no bearing on the topping effect.

Bueno suerte Senor Garcia ~


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## haynel13 (Mar 30, 2009)

Hey UB, excellent thread. Im going into flowering in two days. Would you top now or wait a week into flowering? if so what type of response would i see? healing time v/s growth rate? Thanks in advance.


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## 420weedman (Mar 30, 2009)

how long do you usually veg them for after doing this ? 

im about to move one into flowering now .... its only about 4 inches tall ... but it does have 4 distinct branches


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## born2killspam (Mar 30, 2009)

Way too small IMO unless you have alot of them, or are forced to do it for space purposes.. They're legitimately sexually mature when they develop preflowers and start growing alternating nodes rather than opposing ones..

BTW, your long location string makes any thread you post in a real annoyance


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## 420weedman (Mar 30, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Way too small IMO unless you have alot of them, or are forced to do it for space purposes.. They're legitimately sexually mature when they develop preflowers and start growing alternating nodes rather than opposing ones..
> 
> BTW, your long location string makes any thread you post in a real annoyance


 
i should of mention its a clone .. so its mature ... ill take a pic later

whats your screen resolution ?
i did that to see if any one would fix it ... lol couldnt figure out why max char len is so long


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## born2killspam (Mar 30, 2009)

I was kind of wondering.. I liked to flower clones at that size (that size post snip come 12/12 a few days to a week later), whether I felt like topping, or FIMing, whatever .. But with a single I'd want to hold off.. What I found at that size is every bud on the plant gets adequate light without alot of tying etc, and made manicuring a breeze, usually finishing at ~12-15".. With a single though, tying isn't that bad a hassle.. And waiting will obviously improve yield if thats an issue..
I was running NL5 and Skunk1 btw.. 

And my resolution is 1280x1024, but my fonts are all increased in size, and 120% general zoom in the browser.. I can't fault you for purposely being a dick to demonstrate a reason to change something.. Often its the only way..


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## 420weedman (Mar 30, 2009)

ill prolly throw her in tonight

and i wasnt tring to be a dick ... just make it obvious that there is a lot of space there.

and it prolly only effects people who do what ur doin ne way


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## born2killspam (Mar 30, 2009)

Nah, I've been on forums a long time with different setups.. Same as giant images, forum format is designed to work best with no horizontal scrolling.. I don't know how many chars/line you'd need to support to see that..
Anyways, sorry for being off-topic UB..


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 30, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Nah, I've been on forums a long time with different setups.. Same as giant images, forum format is designed to work best with no horizontal scrolling.. I don't know how many chars/line you'd need to support to see that..
> Anyways, sorry for being off-topic UB..


Like they say, "where you sit is what you see".


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## fulltimesmoker (Mar 31, 2009)

Hey UB,

I just thought i'd post some pictures of one of my cheese that i topped using your technique for four main colas. She is now two weeks into flower and looking great.you can already tell that she will yeild much more than any plant i have topped before using other techniques,you seem to have figured out the perfect balance. I just wish that i had topped them all in this way. Thanks for sharing you knowledge with us.


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## haynel13 (Mar 31, 2009)

Hey UB, what do you think?


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## haynel13 (Mar 31, 2009)

haynel13 said:


> Hey UB, excellent thread. Im going into flowering in two days. Would you top now or wait a week into flowering? if so what type of response would i see? healing time v/s growth rate? Thanks in advance.


 Sorry. I mean what do you think regarding this?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 31, 2009)

fulltimesmoker said:


> Hey UB,
> 
> I just thought i'd post some pictures of one of my cheese that i topped using your technique for four main colas. She is now two weeks into flower and looking great.you can already tell that she will yeild much more than any plant i have topped before using other techniques,you seem to have figured out the perfect balance. I just wish that i had topped them all in this way. Thanks for sharing you knowledge with us.


Nice job and that's a great way to define "my technique" - *the perfect balance*. You've got it nailed. 







Easy, eh?

Keep up the good work,
Tio Bendejo


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 31, 2009)

haynel13 said:


> Sorry. I mean what do you think regarding this?


No, that won't produce the results I'd be looking for. Go back to page 1 my friend....


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## haynel13 (Mar 31, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> No, that won't produce the results I'd be looking for. Go back to page 1 my friend....


 
Thanks alot for the quick response.


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## CommieChase (Mar 31, 2009)

How do you feel about not only doing your technique of topping, but also supercropping plants (sativas, mainly) to keep them short as well? I only have 5'3" of vertical room (which doesn't include room for lights, filter, & exhaust fan), and I want to grow some sativas in it.


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## randk21 (Mar 31, 2009)

Thanks for the tip!


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 1, 2009)

CommieChase said:


> How do you feel about not only doing your technique of topping, but also supercropping plants (sativas, mainly) to keep them short as well?


Since I don't <cough> "supercrop"...... no comment. Try it and see.

Good luck,
UB


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## tooler (Apr 1, 2009)

is it possible to top a autoflowering strain? if yes when?


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## born2killspam (Apr 1, 2009)

Cloning/topping of autos is asked all the time, but never really answered or experimented with.. You could help change that..


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## 420weedman (Apr 1, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Cloning/topping of autos is asked all the time, but never really answered or experimented with.. You could help change that..



sure, they can be topped the same way everyone is doing it here.

i dont understand why people want to clone autos ? 
dont you buy an auto so you dont have to clone /keep mothers vegging ?


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## HyDro Guy (Apr 1, 2009)

I need some help Uncle Ben. This is my first grow and now the plants are 8 weeks old and I need to flower. As you can see they are going to be in my lights in no time. I was told to veg for 8 wks then flower for 8 wks (I grow Cronic video) I have read a little about SCROG and saw some pics and I think I want to use that method but I'm not sure how much I need to cut off my plants or what to do. Please help.


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## CommieChase (Apr 1, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Since I don't <cough> "supercrop"...... no comment. Try it and see.
> 
> Good luck,
> UB


Haha, interesting answer. I probably will try and see. Thanks again.


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## born2killspam (Apr 1, 2009)

It is kind of funny that the most ghetto method of all earns that name.. I'm not saying it doesn't work if your space accepts it well, I just find it funny to think that if a tree falls on a plant in the bush, that it quite likely 'supercropped' it..


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 2, 2009)

tooler said:


> is it possible to top a autoflowering strain? if yes when?


Again, some of you guys are either not reading the thread or I'm not explaining things too well. I thought I had posted pix of an autoflowering plant grown outdoors. 

When? Read the thread.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 2, 2009)

HyDro Guy said:


> I need some help Uncle Ben. This is my first grow and now the plants are 8 weeks old and I need to flower. As you can see they are going to be in my lights in no time. I was told to veg for 8 wks then flower for 8 wks (I grow Cronic video) I have read a little about SCROG and saw some pics and I think I want to use that method but I'm not sure how much I need to cut off my plants or what to do. Please help.


Sorry, I don't do SCROG or anything that I consider a potential PITA.

Good luck,
UB


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## born2killspam (Apr 2, 2009)

I've done scrog, back in my earliest indoor crops.. It was a tough beast to get down.. Especially because the first time I tried to incorporate a screen, it was for support since I didn't plan for that from the start, and started trying to string stuff through when when they were a little too old, already established like they thought proper.. It was pretty gruelling, and hardly resembled the nice looking scrogs experienced scroggers grow their plants into from the start.. Got good yield, but I probably would have gotten as much without the screen.. It was just a jungle mess..
I did get alot better the crop after that, but was realizing that if I grew them nice, the screen wasn't very critical at all.. Eventually I ditched the scrog when I started growing stouter plants (still bigger than most sogs though)..
I can't imagine much more dreadful than the thought of needing to remove a sick/infected plant from the middle of a tight scrog..


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## Katatawnic (Apr 2, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> It is kind of funny that the most ghetto method of all earns that name.. I'm not saying it doesn't work if your space accepts it well, I just find it funny to think that if a tree falls on a plant in the bush, that it quite likely 'supercropped' it..


 If there were no one around to see the tree fall, would the "supercropped" plant still exist? 

There are medical dispensary growers who swear by this method, ghetto or not. I'd rather do LST than supercropping myself; "low stress" being the key words. But to each his/her own, eh?


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## Katatawnic (Apr 2, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Sorry, I don't do SCROG or anything that I consider a potential PITA.


 Sorry for a probable "DUH!" question, but what's PITA? I've not seen this acronym yet.


----------



## 420weedman (Apr 2, 2009)

Katatawnic said:


> Sorry for a probable "DUH!" question, but what's PITA? I've not seen this acronym yet.


pain in the ass


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## born2killspam (Apr 2, 2009)

Pain In The Ass.. Didn't know it either, but I just solved it.. It definately is appropriate to the topic even if I'm wrong..


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## Katatawnic (Apr 2, 2009)

*DOH!!!* I knew it'd be something really simple!


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## Bud Frosty (Apr 4, 2009)

*Got a question for you Uncle Ben,*
*I have a plant in the flower room right now, I call it 'Incredible Hulk'. Out of some bagseed a friend gave me that I have growing in 13" 6 gal. pot. I just happened to have this one planted in the middle of the pot with some other seed out of the same batch. I was gonna thin down any way at some point. This thing at 10 days old was 12" wide and 10" tall with 6 sets of leaves. Individual leaves were 2&1/4" wide. A monster. Put it in 12/12 at 15 days after taking the bottom 2 shutes for clones. On day 19, 4 days after 12/12, I topped it leaving the 2nd and 3rd set, 4 total. *
*Will I still get the hormonal setup for 4 mains? *

*It has a massive stem, 1/2" dia, much potential. Although I don't know if its a female yet, am rolling the dice.*


----------



## Bud Frosty (Apr 4, 2009)

*P.S.*
*The shutes that are left are 7-10" already with big leaves.*


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 5, 2009)

Bud Frosty said:


> *Will I still get the hormonal setup for 4 mains? *


*

Beats the chit out of me. Ask the ho moans how they feel.*


----------



## Bud Frosty (Apr 5, 2009)

*Givin it a whirl anyways, we'll see what happens.*
*You were right though, after 24 hrs the leaders are stood right up and growin fast. Now, as long as it's female...still no sign. Thanks UB.*

*P.S. I know your not that keen on LST but, have you ever low stressed a 4 top plant in opposite directions?*


----------



## Uncle Ben (Apr 6, 2009)

Bud Frosty said:


> *Givin it a whirl anyways, we'll see what happens.*
> *You were right though, after 24 hrs the leaders are stood right up and growin fast. Now, as long as it's female...still no sign. Thanks UB.*
> 
> *P.S. I know your not that keen on LST but, have you ever low stressed a 4 top plant in opposite directions?*


No I haven't. Any time your grow a "fruiting" stem horizontally, you'll get output from the node sites. Whether or not you choose to let those bud sites produce vertically or horizontally is your choice.

Good luck,
UB


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## Bud Frosty (Apr 6, 2009)

*I don't think I'll LST this particular plant, I want to grow it out using your method for 4 tops. Besides, it would probably take up too much space in the flower room. But it would make an interesting 'sea of bush' project for outside. *

*Thanks UB*


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## born2killspam (Apr 6, 2009)

Technically buds are flowers.. And its a damn good thing, fruits need pollination to occur before they develop..


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## demonic1 (Apr 6, 2009)

uncle ben, I read through this thread and a bunch of others from you and can't seem to find your recommeded fertilizers NPK values again now that i'm about to start a new grow. I know you mentioned a Peters in a 9-3-6 for vegging and a 10-30-20 for flowering, is this correct? I'm hoping to use a lot of the techniques I've read through all your great posts.


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## growforgood904 (Apr 6, 2009)

HEy Uncle Ben. Can u please show me what the node is. i see u said cut at 4th true node. can u please count them out in a picture. trying to see if my babies are ready yet.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 6, 2009)

demonic1 said:


> uncle ben, I read through this thread and a bunch of others from you and can't seem to find your recommeded fertilizers NPK values again now that i'm about to start a new grow. I know you mentioned a Peters in a 9-3-6 for vegging and a 10-30-20 for flowering, is this correct? I'm hoping to use a lot of the techniques I've read through all your great posts.


Howdy!

Peters doesn't do a 9-3-6, Dyna-Gro does. Any high N food for foliage is fine like a 30-10-10. 

Peters has a 10-30-20 Blossom Booster available from orchid nursery suppliers.

Don't get hung up on exact NPK values. Understand what the macros do and order your plant foods accordingly.


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## demonic1 (Apr 6, 2009)

Thanks ben, you are truely a wealth of information


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## wanna get high? (Apr 6, 2009)

I pinch the tops of mine to get multiple tops. Its called fimming. Pinch about half of the top shoot off.


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## lurkmaster (Apr 7, 2009)

If the lower nodes on a plant do not look very healthy, is it still a good idea to top it?

Or should I top it at a healthier node?


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 7, 2009)

lurkmaster said:


> If the lower nodes on a plant do not look very healthy, is it still a good idea to top it?
> 
> Or should I top it at a healthier node?


What do you mean by "healthy"?


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## lurkmaster (Apr 7, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> What do you mean by "healthy"?


I had some really bad nutrient burn on the first two sets of fan leaves.

I just decided to top it at the second node anyways because I checked it out a bit closer and saw that I had some nice healthy secondary nodes coming up so I figured it would be fine.


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## MickFoster (Apr 8, 2009)

Sorry if this question has already been asked - I only got about half way reading the posts - there are 41 pages. I understand how cutting above the 2nd node will produce 4 colas. My only concern is that the stress of cutting off 2/3 of the plant will cause it to hermie. What are the chances of that happening?

Thanks!


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## born2killspam (Apr 8, 2009)

Nah, they like it.. Its like a fad diet to them.. They lose some instant weight, then they get all psychologically positive about themselves and grow really nicely..
Just don't light stress it, and if they're good genetics you should stay herm free.. If they herm any easier than that just consider yourself lucky that you caught it early..


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 8, 2009)

lurkmaster said:


> I had some really bad nutrient burn on the first two sets of fan leaves.
> 
> I just decided to top it at the second node anyways because I checked it out a bit closer and saw that I had some nice healthy secondary nodes coming up so I figured it would be fine.


Got it. Yes, that would be a good plan as long as you've corrected your nutrient situation.



MickFoster said:


> Sorry if this question has already been asked - I only got about half way reading the posts - there are 41 pages. I understand how cutting above the 2nd node will produce 4 colas. My only concern is that the stress of cutting off 2/3 of the plant will cause it to hermie. What are the chances of that happening?
> 
> Thanks!


Yes, it has been covered. What makes you think the plant would be stressed? Because someone said so or do you have some real botanical cause/effect facts to share? IOW, are you dealing with the all too prevalent feelings over facts cannabis forum syndrome?

Just wondering,
UB


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## charlesweedmore (Apr 8, 2009)

thanks mate ,great topic


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 8, 2009)

Glad you're playing along!


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## MickFoster (Apr 8, 2009)

Uncle Ben - I didn't have any particular reason for asking the hermie question other than my own paranoia about stressing plants. It was just a question. Thanks for the response - I'll try it on the Satori that I have vegging - the sixth node is just starting.

Thanks again!


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## grind (Apr 8, 2009)

this looks like an awesome method and i will definitely be utilizing it in my grow. my only question is how long before flowering should this be done? 
thanks,

Grind


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## BluegrassGrow (Apr 8, 2009)

Do you need to cover the cut, like with some sort of sap? what kind of nutrient solutions? Can you do this with any strain? if not, what type does it favor more (indinca:Satva).


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## born2killspam (Apr 9, 2009)

If you intend to clone what you snipped then concern yourself with that.. The plant will be fine..


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## ButterBud (Apr 11, 2009)

Has anyone ever done this with Hindu Kush?


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## DaYooper (Apr 11, 2009)

UB - Thanks for the awesome thread. 

I have one question - I am 5 days into flowerin and I was wondering if its too late to top one of my babies off. She is growing faster than the other two and I had to raise the lights some more this morning. 

Thanks for the feedback.


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## carolinakottonmouth (Apr 11, 2009)

OK i did it just like you said. So now its the wait game again. I have put the tops back in the Aero Gard trying to get them to start up on there own. Thanks for the advice.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 12, 2009)

DaYooper said:


> UB - Thanks for the awesome thread.
> 
> I have one question - I am 5 days into flowerin and I was wondering if its too late to top one of my babies off. She is growing faster than the other two and I had to raise the lights some more this morning.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.


Depends on the response you want.


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## Bud Frosty (Apr 13, 2009)

Bud Frosty said:


> *Got a question for you Uncle Ben,*
> *I have a plant in the flower room right now, I call it 'Incredible Hulk'. Out of some bagseed a friend gave me that I have growing in 13" 6 gal. pot. I just happened to have this one planted in the middle of the pot with some other seed out of the same batch. I was gonna thin down any way at some point. This thing at 10 days old was 12" wide and 10" tall with 6 sets of leaves. Individual leaves were 2&1/4" wide. A monster. Put it in 12/12 at 15 days after taking the bottom 2 shutes for clones. On day 19, 4 days after 12/12, I topped it leaving the 2nd and 3rd set, 4 total. *
> *Will I still get the hormonal setup for 4 mains? *
> 
> *It has a massive stem, 1/2" dia, much potential. Although I don't know if its a female yet, am rolling the dice.*


*Just an update,U.B.:*

*At 12 days flowering, 28 days total, it is female. Woohoo! Sorry, I've been giving this thing alot of my space so I'm glad it hasn't been a waste. The 4 stems are all nice and even. After topping and removing all other fan leaves it is still 16" tall and 25" wide.*


----------



## DaYooper (Apr 13, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Depends on the response you want.


1 to 2 colas is what I am looking for per plant. Where should I make my cut at? 

Thanks again!


----------



## Uncle Ben (Apr 13, 2009)

Bud Frosty said:


> *Just an update,U.B.:*
> 
> *At 12 days flowering, 28 days total, it is female. Woohoo! Sorry, I've been giving this thing alot of my space so I'm glad it hasn't been a waste. The 4 stems are all nice and even. After topping and removing all other fan leaves it is still 16" tall and 25" wide.*


Glad to hear she's a she and things are working out, but why did you remove ANY fan leaves?


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## Bud Frosty (Apr 13, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Glad to hear she's a she and things are working out, but why did you remove ANY fan leaves?


*Thanks. It was my bad, I dropped 4 cfl lights plus a reflector on it, busted 3 fan sets on the bottom. Then after topping there were only 2 left, took them off just to even things up.*
*The plant doesn't seem to mind though, just keeps growin.*


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## lurkmaster (Apr 13, 2009)

I am very happy with the results using this method, thanks for sharing the knowledge man, its greatly appreciated.

I topped this plant at the third node, because I wasn't sure if the first node was healthy enough, still have what looks like 4 main stem structures.






I will be topping my other plant at the second node when it is ready.


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## Twenty Past Four (Apr 14, 2009)

I did this and its working very nicely great teq!


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 14, 2009)

You guys are having too much fun!


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## klmmicro (Apr 16, 2009)

Man, I am totally trying this on my next run. I topped one of my plants at the 6th node and let the bottom sides stay. Looking at what can be done by diverting the plants growth, I can see I messed up with that approach. Great info from all on this thread BTW!


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## Marijuana101 (Apr 18, 2009)

I still do not understand


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## randh2004 (Apr 18, 2009)

im on my 15th set up the main stock. My plant is 26 inches tall in veg still....If i want to cut my plant to get two or four colas how would i do it???Is it to late???


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## Katatawnic (Apr 18, 2009)

Marijuana101 said:


> I still do not understand


Next seedling and/or clone I top, I'm thinking of videoing it so that there can be a live demonstration. If I do and if it turns out sharp/clear enough to be helpful, I'll post it to this thread.  It'll be a few weeks or so from now though, as I'll be planting either clones or seeds this Monday. But I figured that if the vid turns out well then it could be helpful for those who learn better with visual demonstration on top of written instructions.

I'm a n00b too, and even though my reading comprehension is quite adequate, I still read UB's first post to this thread a few times before I was sure that I had it down. Even then, it wasn't easy to visualize it well enough to have that "AHAH!" moment until my seedlings were developed enough.... then I had not only instructions and photos, but also my own plants to study.

Although Q & A can often be helpful, I'd suggest that you stick to the original post with UB's instructions for this technique, and not bother with the myriad of questions/replies just for now. He explained the how and why in detail, yet it was concise and written simply enough for the layman to understand it. The only question I posted to this thread was with a photo of the first plant I was going to top, just to make sure that I was correct as to which spot I'd snip to get the results I wanted. In other words, I was covering my ass instead of making an only slightly educated guess and risking screwing up a very healthy and happy plant.


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## 420weedman (Apr 18, 2009)

i said id try this ... heres my himalayan clone chopped at like 2nd node.
has 4 main branches that are pretty even with the help of super cropping 
about 2 weeks into flowering now


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 20, 2009)

Marijuana101 said:


> I still do not understand


Just do it per the first page, then it will become clear to you.

Katatawnic, great post.

Ben


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## born2killspam (Apr 20, 2009)

I just wish ppl could edit older posts.. Think of how many questions could have been saved if you could edit the OP to clarify what the first true node is.. Beyond that, the pictures are so clear that I don't know how ppl can be confused about cutting through nodes, or where to cut...


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 20, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> I just wish ppl could edit older posts.. Think of how many questions could have been saved if you could edit the OP to clarify what the first true node is.. Beyond that, the pictures are so clear that I don't know how ppl can be confused about cutting through nodes, or where to cut...


If they don't understand, it's not my problem. Page one, 1st and 4th photo shows it all.

UB


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## by1969 (Apr 20, 2009)

Hey Uncle Ben...I totally understand your concise explanation form the beginning. I have one question which I think I know the answer to, but I'm asking it anyway. (Hopefully it wasn't asked before). I have a nice clone with have 6-7 nodes. The 1st node is right above the soil. The 2nd and 3rd are nice and healthy and strong about 4 and 6 inches up. I'm gonna cut the 1st node branches off completely. Then I'm gonna top it above the 3rd node. Now I have 2 nodes. For 4 healthy colas, this should work fine right?


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## born2killspam (Apr 20, 2009)

Why cut them?? They aren't hurting anything down there.. Just dumping whatever energy/food reserves they have back into the plant..
Sound like this is a clone though.. Topping clones is generally the same, but you can't expect the absolute predictability/uniformity you get topping a seedling before its begun growing alternating nodes.. Also, stripping that lowest mode won't even guarantee that the plant won't try to grow new shoots from there.. Good thing to observe though when you do it..


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## by1969 (Apr 20, 2009)

The lowest branches are weak and just a half inch or so above the soil. the 2nd and 3rd look and strong. if I cut the lowest, then the 2nd and 3rd nodes will produce the 4 fat colas...i'm hoping. Already did it and looking forward to see what happens. I don't see why it would be any different.



born2killspam said:


> Why cut them?? They aren't hurting anything down there.. Just dumping whatever energy/food reserves they have back into the plant..
> Sound like this is a clone though.. Topping clones is generally the same, but you can't expect the absolute predictability/uniformity you get topping a seedling before its begun growing alternating nodes.. Also, stripping that lowest mode won't even guarantee that the plant won't try to grow new shoots from there.. Good thing to observe though when you do it..


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## born2killspam (Apr 20, 2009)

I'd top as you're planning, I'd just let that lowest node wither away unless it was a problem.. I prune when I see a reason to, not when I don't see a reason not to..


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## by1969 (Apr 20, 2009)

I read further back that this 4-cola technique will NOT work with alternating nodes. why is that?...they're not that far apart, just an inch or so.


born2killspam said:


> I'd top as you're planning, I'd just let that lowest node wither away unless it was a problem.. I prune when I see a reason to, not when I don't see a reason not to..


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## born2killspam (Apr 20, 2009)

You'll still get more topmost budsites.. Train them as you please if they don't adopt the best position by themselves..


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## by1969 (Apr 20, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> You'll still get more topmost budsites.. Train them as you please if they don't adopt the best position by themselves..


Hey borntokill, a little off topic here. What's your opinion on molasses and flushing. I'm at 12-12 day 35. Feeding with the Foxfarm schedule.


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## born2killspam (Apr 20, 2009)

They can help alot if you find yourself in a predicament where you've made some mistakes.. Molasses can't really hurt even if your soil is already loaded with carbs and the microbes are healthy, but I don't flush unless the plant is unhealthy looking as harvest approaches.. IMO if the plant is healthy it will apply what it can to late growth as well as it can what it would otherwise cannibalize if it was flushed, but if the plant is imbalanced somehow, let it cannibalize whats locked up, and you can reduce that ammonia smelling wet resin effect..
A funny thing I've noticed is that effect seems to be predominant in both badly grown weed, and prematurely harvested weed.. Food for thought if your plants look really nice late season, yet flushing seems to make alot of difference..
This is based solely on anecdotal observations from both weed I've grown, and weed I didn't.. I started out following the flushing regimen, but then after a few crops my dad asked me why I'd starve healthy plants, and started going on about how perfect nature is, so I caved and didn't regret it..


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## by1969 (Apr 20, 2009)

Thanks for the reply pal. I'm gonna put some pics up tonight...i'll do in on another thread though so you guys can stay on your topic here. If you'd like, check it out and post a comment. thanks again


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## bdonson (Apr 20, 2009)

Here ya go UB pics of a couple of hawaiian maui wowie. about 3weeks old using AN,s nutesand nutrient chart. Foxfarm soil in 1 gal pots for now, treated with MicroKote. Congrats Uncle Ben, when I topped them they never missed a day's growth Cheers


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 20, 2009)

by1969 said:


> Hey Uncle Ben...I totally understand your concise explanation form the beginning. I have one question which I think I know the answer to, but I'm asking it anyway. (Hopefully it wasn't asked before). I have a nice clone with have 6-7 nodes. The 1st node is right above the soil. The 2nd and 3rd are nice and healthy and strong about 4 and 6 inches up. I'm gonna cut the 1st node branches off completely. Then I'm gonna top it above the 3rd node. Now I have 2 nodes. For 4 healthy colas, this should work fine right?


Like I said, you have dormant leaf or bud sites located at the point where a leaf petiole is attached to the "trunk". Make a cut above a node, a leafset's petiole and the plant will initiate output at the node just below the cut.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 20, 2009)

bdonson said:


> Here ya go UB pics of a couple of hawaiian maui wowie. about 3weeks old using AN,s nutesand nutrient chart. Foxfarm soil in 1 gal pots for now, treated with MicroKote. Congrats Uncle Ben, when I topped them they never missed a day's growth Cheers


Yep, that's the drill.

Have fun!


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## by1969 (Apr 20, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Like I said, you have dormant leaf or bud sites located at the point where a leaf petiole is attached to the "trunk". Make a cut above a node, a leafset's petiole and the plant will initiate output at the node just below the cut.
> 
> UB


I topped 7 today with this technique. I'll post some pics later. Very educational UB. I put some pictures up of my current garden at day 35 of my 12-12 cycle. on the harvesting and curing board if you're interested in observing and commenting...


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## billdo (Apr 21, 2009)

by1969 said:


> I topped 7 today with this technique. I'll post some pics later. Very educational UB. I put some pictures up of my current garden at day 35 of my 12-12 cycle. on the harvesting and curing board if you're interested in observing and commenting...


I would have totally checked that out if there had been a link. Sounds interesting.


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## ConstantlyHighOnPot (Apr 21, 2009)

good info UB, this was one of the first things my parents taught me lol....i always pinch the 2nd or 3rd true node, it makes a nice little bush with like 4 colas - experimentation is key...


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## by1969 (Apr 21, 2009)

billdo said:


> I would have totally checked that out if there had been a link. Sounds interesting.


Here's pics of the topped clones and 2 pics of my day 35 flowering girls. More in my profile gallery. How many more days do ya think on the big girls?


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## funbuns (Apr 23, 2009)

Sorry to ask this as a noob in the advanced section. But could someone please tell me what a node is, so I have a good idea of where to cut. I'm trying to learn all I can before I start.


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## billdo (Apr 23, 2009)

funbuns said:


> Sorry to ask this as a noob in the advanced section. But could someone please tell me what a node is, so I have a good idea of where to cut. I'm trying to learn all I can before I start.


a node is basically where branches come out of the stem. Do not count the first "seedling" leaves... we are talking real branches. So, just count up 2 nodes from the bottom, and snip snip just above it.

if i fucked that up somehow... someone call me on it.


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## billdo (Apr 23, 2009)

OK... has anyone else noticed that the rollitup logo has "marijuana" spelled wrong?







To the site mods... i am not trying to be a dick here. I just want to know if I am being stupid or just don't know about some inside joke. I love this site... i am just weirded out by having never noticed this.


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## funbuns (Apr 23, 2009)

billdo said:


> a node is basically where branches come out of the stem. Do not count the first "seedling" leaves... we are talking real branches. So, just count up 2 nodes from the bottom, and snip snip just above it.
> 
> if i fucked that up somehow... someone call me on it.


Thanks Billdo, I'll take some pics when I start, hopefully it should be soon.


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## billdo (Apr 24, 2009)

funbuns said:


> Thanks Billdo, I'll take some pics when I start, hopefully it should be soon.


keep a full diary! let me know when you get it going!


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## Katatawnic (Apr 24, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Just do it per the first page, then it will become clear to you.
> 
> Katatawnic, great post.
> 
> Ben


Thanks, Ben! An amatuer getting props from someone experienced is quite the compliment; I must've gotten _something_ right! 

Cloning happened on Wednesday instead of Monday, due to having to temporarily rig the hanging of my new light setup.... there's always too much month at the end of the money!  I'll be getting a pully on the 1st. (Shoe strings are quite strong when knotted properly!)

ANYHOOO, when it's time to top, I'll get out my cam & tripod and try for a clear vid to post. 

~~ *Kat* ~~


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 24, 2009)

billdo said:


> OK... has anyone else noticed that the rollitup logo has "marijuana" spelled wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's funny. Hell, I'd be happy if rollitup could get the time thingie right! That's in the noise level....we'll live. 



Katatawnic said:


> Thanks, Ben! An amatuer getting props from someone experienced is quite the compliment; I must've gotten _something_ right!
> 
> Cloning happened on Wednesday instead of Monday, due to having to temporarily rig the hanging of my new light setup.... there's always too much month at the end of the money!  I'll be getting a pully on the 1st. (Shoe strings are quite strong when knotted properly!)
> 
> ...


Looking forward to your pix and the others too, post 'em here fellers.....if you want. Regarding your pulley, you might try lightweight dog chains and a hook on your lights, then you can adjust one link at a time. 

Regarding topping, I've done it a bunch. What I've really tried to convey in this thread is not so much what meets the eye but plant responses regarding the function of auxins - apical dominance and the re-distribution of auxins induced by pinching out certain plant parts. Hormones pretty much control ALL plant activity from birth to death. For example, did you know that the germination of a seed is controlled totally by hormones? Bringing an embryo out of dormancy, aka "germination", is a battle between auxins and anti-auxins (one or more of dem sunsabeeches anyhoo). Learning the function of a plant's hormones and then playing games with them to your advantage is what it's all about, on any kind of plant material, especially trees in case you're an outdoor gardener too.

IOW, learn what makes a plant tick, after you learn the name of the plant parts <cough>. 

Cya ~


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## klmmicro (Apr 24, 2009)

billdo said:


> OK... has anyone else noticed that the rollitup logo has "marijuana" spelled wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I never noticed it either and I click that image as a link all the time! Now that you've pointed it out, I am totally trippin'.


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## billdo (Apr 24, 2009)

weird, right?

Sorry to hijack your thread, Ben. I just noticed the logo thing while answering that question!

Much respect!
BILLDO


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## Kevin53191 (Apr 27, 2009)

Hey great thread really informative. I hope u guys dont min d me jumpin in to ask this quick question. What do u mean by true nodes? My plants are 7days old i was wondering when i should top them.!


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 27, 2009)

billdo said:


> weird, right?
> 
> Sorry to hijack your thread, Ben. I just noticed the logo thing while answering that question!
> 
> ...


Not a problem. Respect returned. 

A "true node" is where the plant's regular leaf petioles attach to the "trunk". For the sake of discussion, I do not consider where the cotyledons attach to be a node.


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## amsterdamned (Apr 28, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Not a problem. Respect returned.
> 
> A "true node" is where the plant's regular leaf petioles attach to the "trunk". For the sake of discussion, I do not consider where the cotyledons attach to be a node.



just tagging the thread so i can take a pic and post up for advice on how best to top one of my strains at the mo  bbl


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 28, 2009)

amsterdamned said:


> just tagging the thread so i can take a pic and post up for advice on how best to top one of my strains at the mo  bbl


Bring it on bro....


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## kootabuds (Apr 28, 2009)

Sorry. Double Post.https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get.html


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## kootabuds (Apr 28, 2009)

Gday Uncle Ben

I spent a good few hours reading through this thread and I learned a lot. Im on my first indoor grow, and Im growing 6 super skunks from seed. 

4 of them were ready to be topped (6 nodes had devleoped), so I topped them just above the 2nd true node. Well, I think I did.

You know how you say the node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count - well - I sat there, stoned as, staring at my plants, trying to work out if the node where the cotyledons attached was seperate to this other node very close to the same node. Anyway I got a bit confused, so I just cut above what I thought was the 2nd true node.

Here are some pics, does this look right too you? I want 4 main colas.

Sorry the pics aren't very good, I couldn't zoom in any more without it going even more blury.

And thanks for all your help, you've made things much easier.

My Grow Thread: https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/182181-my-super-skunk-hydro-grow.html


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## Kevin53191 (Apr 28, 2009)

Uncle Ben another question for u. How can I ensure that my plants will have a large root system? Any extra measures i can take to help them along? Aside from getting a new light, workin on that.!


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## born2killspam (Apr 29, 2009)

Figure out your proper watering schedule.. It makes a big difference root wise when they get to drink.. Read up on root-pruning too, and try to water slowly and evenly and thoroughly so you don't end up with compacted soil that channels water around the roots.. Beyond that, transplant fertilizers are really focused on phosphorous for a reason..


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 29, 2009)

kootabuds said:


> Gday Uncle Ben


Howdy do! Glad to be of help.



> Here are some pics, does this look right too you? I want 4 main colas.


Looks good to me. Looking at this plant, you've got output from the axis where the original leaf petioles are attached to the "trunk", one set of original opposing leafsets at 11:30 and 5:30, the other running 8:30 and 2:30. 







Have fun,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 29, 2009)

Kevin53191 said:


> Uncle Ben another question for u. How can I ensure that my plants will have a large root system? Any extra measures i can take to help them along? Aside from getting a new light, workin on that.!


born2killspam has left you some solid advice, but, that's a loaded question that's based on your overall culture. If you have success growing indoor plants then it should not be a problem. You're smart to focus on developing a large root system, it is the foundation from which all the other stuff comes from. It's all in the balance and that includes the amount of light you give your plants. 

Good luck,
UB


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## klmmicro (May 1, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy do! Glad to be of help.
> 
> Looks good to me. Looking at this plant, you've got output from the axis where the original leaf petioles are attached to the "trunk", one set of original opposing leafsets at 11:30 and 5:30, the other running 8:30 and 2:30.
> 
> ...


Almost broke my heart the first time I topped like that...but the end result was GREAT and more than made up for the initial sense of loss.


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## Uncle Ben (May 1, 2009)

The loss that breaks my heart is hearing folks removing fan leaves.


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## Kevin53191 (May 2, 2009)

Ok i have a question and realy need a helpful solution. 6 of my 8 plants have died in the past three days after transplanting them from my compost mix into regular potting soil. They didnt completely die but i am not going to waste my time on stressd out sprouts barely a week and a half old. Wut there doing is curling like there underwatered but i am almost a hundred precent thats not the problem not entirely but pretty sure. There not overwatered either i am still watering with a spray bottle for moderation.

Thanks in advance for ne help.
K5


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## dontbethatguy111 (May 2, 2009)

Exactly what I was looking for. Question... What do you mean by the 2nd true node? I have 6 inch tall plants from seed, going to be mothers, have 4-5 leafsets. So there are the two dieing leaves from when the seed first poppped. Then there is the set above those, then another set above those. Would I cut it just about that set. seedlings little leaves, two leaf sets, two leaf sets, snip?


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## dontbethatguy111 (May 2, 2009)

Sorry, looked back a bit and answered my question. This thread is great. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. Very generous of you.


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## Tuanis (May 2, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy!
> 
> Based on quite a few questions about topping I've received here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a-12.htmlAny questions, fire away.
> 
> ...


 
Hello Uncle Ben,

Just wanted to know how long does it take for the plant to start growing again, I mean how long does it take to recover from the topping?

Thanks.


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## Tuanis (May 2, 2009)

Sorry forgot to say...

I'm growing on coco coir, pyth...


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## born2killspam (May 2, 2009)

dontbethatguy111 said:


> Exactly what I was looking for. Question... What do you mean by the 2nd true node? I have 6 inch tall plants from seed, going to be mothers, have 4-5 leafsets. So there are the two dieing leaves from when the seed first poppped. Then there is the set above those, then another set above those. Would I cut it just about that set. seedlings little leaves, two leaf sets, two leaf sets, snip?


Sounds like you're asking if you sould cut above the second true node.. Yes.. ABOVE that would give you 4 dominant tops..


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## inquisitive (May 2, 2009)

Made the cut tonight on a 16" tall bagseed plant, (she was getting too thin and tall for my liking).
Shooting for the 4 cola target, did it right according to the directions here. Need the plant to grow short due to lack of height in the space alloted. Will post update in a week or so.

Great thread Tito, thank you for sharing the wisdom.


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## Katatawnic (May 3, 2009)

Tuanis said:


> Just wanted to know how long does it take for the plant to start growing again, I mean how long does it take to recover from the topping?


I'm not Uncle Ben, but....  From my personal experience, they recover and start growing new shoots in 1-3 days.

*1.* First time I topped (using UB's method), the day I topped; back left and back right.
*2.* Four days later.
*3.* Two more topped plants, last Wednesday.
*4.* And, last Thursday.

You may not notice a huge difference, but it's there. And obviously the plants' health wasn't effected.... no "recovery time" at all, so to speak.


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## Uncle Ben (May 3, 2009)

Tuanis said:


> Hello Uncle Ben,
> 
> Just wanted to know how long does it take for the plant to start growing again, I mean how long does it take to recover from the topping?
> 
> Thanks.


Please read the first page.



inquisitive said:


> Made the cut tonight on a 16" tall bagseed plant, (she was getting too thin and tall for my liking).
> Shooting for the 4 cola target, did it right according to the directions here. Need the plant to grow short due to lack of height in the space alloted. Will post update in a week or so.
> 
> Great thread Tito, thank you for sharing the wisdom.


Enjoy!



Katatawnic said:


> I'm not Uncle Ben, but....  From my personal experience, they recover and start growing new shoots in 1-3 days.
> 
> *1.* First time I topped (using UB's method), the day I topped; back left and back right.
> *2.* Four days later.
> ...


Easy, eh? The "recovery period" is based on the vigor of your plants, which is based on basic culture like temp, food, water, light, etc. If you have vigorous growing plants they should show output within 18 hours. The only "recovery" is the redistribution of auxins to the new apical dominant leaders - your newly created 4 main colas.

Nice job,
Tio


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## spartree (May 3, 2009)

Wow, I can't believe I read the whole thing! It's the best read ever! You answered this a few dozen pages back, but I didn't quite get it. (I'm some dumb,but not plum dumb) Most of my plants are clones. I keep them in a 24 hour light period because the light keeps them at the right temp. In the past I didn't notice how off set the nodes were. Are you saying that clone nodes in a 24 hour light cycle will become even, given enough time?


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## Uncle Ben (May 4, 2009)

spartree said:


> Wow, I can't believe I read the whole thing! It's the best read ever! You answered this a few dozen pages back, but I didn't quite get it. (I'm some dumb,but not plum dumb) Most of my plants are clones. I keep them in a 24 hour light period because the light keeps them at the right temp. In the past I didn't notice how off set the nodes were. Are you saying that clone nodes in a 24 hour light cycle will become even, given enough time?


Glad to see you stuck it out on the read!

Being that you have alternate nodes, it sounds like they are in a state of flowering, even with the 24 hour light. I know when I reveg the nodes revert to a state of opposing nodes. You'll just have to play with it and give them a high N food to help kick them back into a veg mode.


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## spartree (May 4, 2009)

Thanks for the answer. You da man............


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## inquisitive (May 6, 2009)

4 new main stems created, this thread is for the win and Uncle Ben there definitely knows his stuff.


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## Uncle Ben (May 6, 2009)

inquisitive said:


> 4 new main stems created, this thread is for the win and Uncle Ben there definitely knows his stuff.


Looks like you got it!

Enjoy,
Tio


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## davemoney (May 7, 2009)

sorry if this questions has already been asked(probably) but its late and i have finals tomorrow. otherwise i would look thru the thread....in your opinion tio ben, does this increase yield? have you experimented 1vs.4? thanks! 

-blaze one for the nationd$


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## Uncle Ben (May 7, 2009)

davemoney said:


> sorry if this questions has already been asked(probably) but its late and i have finals tomorrow. otherwise i would look thru the thread....in your opinion tio ben, does this increase yield? have you experimented 1vs.4? thanks!
> 
> -blaze one for the nationd$


All things considered, yes I do think it increases yield but then again I haven't run a control group against it. The colas seem only slightly less thick but the same length as a typical single main cola, and in the case of an outdoor plant that had 4 main colas a while back, they seemed to actually be greater in girth than a single would have been.


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## davemoney (May 7, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> All things considered, yes I do think it increases yield but then again I haven't run a control group against it. The colas seem only slightly less thick but the same length as a typical single main cola, and in the case of an outdoor plant that had 4 main colas a while back, they seemed to actually be greater in girth than a single would have been.


o yeah if i was growing outside whoooooo those 4 colas would be fatty!i cowered in doors w/250watt hpsthis one needs to be experimented with


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## onecollartwosleeves (May 9, 2009)

Haha I have just read this entire thread, and learnt more than when I asked question...thanks guys. Anyone had expierience with topping/fimming/super cropping Cirital Plus (Dinafem)? Really curious, I would like to apply this method to mine if it works. But since it is my first grow I would probably only do it to one plant, as my friend said to only do it on a few of them maximum so I can weigh up and see the benefits myself. Although from reading other peoples stories, it sounds very promising. I also understand it is very strain dependant...which is why I am asking if anyone has done Critical Plus and applied these methods...let me know. Thanks in advance!


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## born2killspam (May 9, 2009)

Word of advice, unless you're ready to deal with mismatched sizes and extra indiviual training, you should apply the same procedures to all your plants.. Indoors thats just the best way to use light..


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## inquisitive (May 9, 2009)

Quick update on this one, Used to be 16" tall, used the 4 cola topping method, working great.
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/6200/img9228.jpg


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## BLUNTED4REAL (May 10, 2009)

can you still top to get four colas if you got alternating nodes and if so would it be the same?(above the second node)


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## Roland (May 10, 2009)

*Hahahaha GREAT POST !! .. Uncle Ben ..*

*I've been toppig my plants since 1971 !! *

*It works great !!*

*Thanks for the post and all the replies .. I'm new to the site and really appreciate you all sharing the info !!!*

*My next "grow" is already going better thanks to all the information and techniques and ingenuity I've found at ROLLITUP !*

*Thanks to all !!*


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## NutterBudder (May 11, 2009)

great information. you know you stuff. i think ima try your topping technique on my super skunk. + rep


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## bushmang (May 11, 2009)

hi uncle ben i was wondering if you could help me out for a sec. I have 40 clones that have been vegging for 5 days now and i was wondering when the perfect time would be to cut the top off? i read ur guide a few times and it says to cut as soon as there are some true nodes. i understand what u mean with true nodes but my question is how long should the nodes be in order to classify them as true nodes? the plants are about 6 inches tall and are starting to bush out. On most plants i have almost long enough nodes to make clones with them are the plants ready for chop chop? also the ones that have not grown the ndes yet should i wait to cut those or should i wait to cut the entire SOG togethere all at once or can i start cutting now?


iappreciate your help and ur discovery is fucking awsome mad respect


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## bushmang (May 11, 2009)

hi uncle ben i was wondering if you could help me out for a sec. I have 40 clones that have been vegging for 5 days now and i was wondering when the perfect time would be to cut the top off? i read ur guide a few times and it says to cut as soon as there are some true nodes. i understand what u mean with true nodes but my question is how long should the nodes be in order to classify them as true nodes? the plants are about 6 inches tall and are starting to bush out. On most plants i have almost long enough nodes to make clones with them are the plants ready for chop chop? also the ones that have not grown the ndes yet should i wait to cut those or should i wait to cut the entire SOG togethere all at once or can i start cutting now?


iappreciate your help and ur discovery is fucking awsome mad respect


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## bushmang (May 11, 2009)

hi uncle ben i was wondering if you could help me out for a sec. I have 40 clones that have been vegging for 5 days now and i was wondering when the perfect time would be to cut the top off? i read ur guide a few times and it says to cut as soon as there are some true nodes. i understand what u mean with true nodes but my question is how long should the nodes be in order to classify them as true nodes? the plants are about 6 inches tall and are starting to bush out. On most plants i have almost long enough nodes to make clones with them are the plants ready for chop chop? also the ones that have not grown the ndes yet should i wait to cut those or should i wait to cut the entire SOG togethere all at once or can i start cutting now?


iappreciate your help and ur discovery is fucking awsome mad respect


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## Uncle Ben (May 11, 2009)

Hi folks, hope everyone had a great Mother's Day. Our weekend was fun and got alot of chores done around the house, long overdo so that makes me feel good.



bushmang said:


> hi uncle ben i was wondering if you could help me out for a sec. I have 40 clones that have been vegging for 5 days now and i was wondering when the perfect time would be to cut the top off? i read ur guide a few times and it says to cut as soon as there are some true nodes. i understand what u mean with true nodes but my question is how long should the nodes be in order to classify them as true nodes?


You must be thinking about the space between the nodes. That is an internode. Top when you have a well rooted plant, about 6 nodes total is fine.



> iappreciate your help and ur discovery is fucking awsome mad respect


Glad you're having some fun and find it of value. Funny, but someone posted a link to an indoor garden by Arjan of Greenhouse Seeds about a year ago and here he was topping alot of plants to 4 main colas. I just about died laughing. I've been doing it to cannabis for over 10 years. I consider myself an expert when it comes to playing games with mama nature's hormones regarding apical dominance. On my farm, I not only practice branching which creates multiple terminal leaders like your 4 main colas but I can force/train a plant or a tree back to a single terminal leader too. You just have to understand plants. Hormones control everything including germination which is just a fancy name for bring an embryo out of dormancy.



onecollartwosleeves said:


> I also understand it is very strain dependant...which is why I am asking if anyone has done Critical Plus and applied these methods...let me know. Thanks in advance!



It is not strain dependent. Hormones are hormones whether they reside in a sativa, indica or your typical mutt.

Good luck,
UB


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## bushmang (May 11, 2009)

you should start a seed company and do some crazy strains....


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## Uncle Ben (May 11, 2009)

bushmang said:


> you should start a seed company and do some crazy strains....


I've done alot of crosses and given away alot of seeds. Weirdest cross was a Posi. Jack Herer X Sensi Skunk that auto flowered upon the 8th node. Yielded some great sativa bud, 25 oz.


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## blizzie420 (May 11, 2009)

YOU ARE THE MAN! I've been doing a lot of reading about different ways to grow and ways to get good yields and after reading this thread, I am just amazed at the yield from 1 plant. Fantastic!


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## bushmang (May 11, 2009)

when is it too late to do the cut? can this be done to a plant that is already a big tree? i guesse what im asking is are there any time constraints?


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## 420weedman (May 11, 2009)

this WW is 26" tall .... less than a half gallon of soil 
3 main-ish colas ... but not topped at the 2nd node


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## casper23 (May 11, 2009)

i cannot wait to start my grow. i will for sure be using your topping idea. thanks UB.


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## jcdws602 (May 11, 2009)

I have a question UB I've been reading through most of this thread SORRY in advance if you've answered this question already,, I know how repeating things over can be quite a hassle,but would it be beneficial at all to ALSO apply the SCROG method???I've been growing for several years using several different techniques but I've never combined these two.I mean I have the time to experiment and try it myself but I was hoping if you could share some of your wisdom with me I would greatly appreciate it.


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## born2killspam (May 12, 2009)

I think UB really only uses screens in pipes and windows..
Not that you couldn't string 4 tops through a screen if you're dead set on doing so, but this method usually works out to be pretty light efficient without a screen..


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## Uncle Ben (May 12, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> I think UB really only uses screens in pipes and windows..
> Not that you couldn't string 4 tops through a screen if you're dead set on doing so, but this method usually works out to be pretty light efficient without a screen..


Hi everyone!

Thanks for answering a question that has been asked before. jcdws602, the issue is light efficiency as it applies to photosynthesis, as mentioned.

420weedman, looking good. Can't argue with that kinda success. 

Stay free,
UB


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## lilkc (May 12, 2009)

lol yall so funny


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## 420weedman (May 12, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thanks man, that one came out to be a successful experiment.
i have one that is topped at the 2nd node and has 4 colas ... but its a indica so not as thick with bud. but its doing better than my first couple clones i flowered

also i have another WW .. topped at maybe the 3rd node and flowered pretty short .. has a nice top of big buds on it as well only 10" tall (4-5main branches)... ill take a pic of her soon too


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## Roland (May 12, 2009)

*Great Comment Merahoon*


merahoon said:


> Yeah I agree. I personally like to try all the new crosses and what not just to try different flavors and to get different highs or mixed highs. I don't like how peolpe just put a name on something like you said. Thats just stupid. If a strain is made, it should show its lineage and be called something similar to what it came from. UB I'm not highjacking your thread just going to add something funny to it. This link is to Katt Williams sketch on weed. In his sketch he talks about people random names on their weed. Take seven minutes of your time to watch it if you haven't seen it.
> 
> *Right on Merahoon !! *
> 
> ...


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## lilkc (May 13, 2009)

After u topp to get 4 main colas how long does it take for the plant to show any progress in makin the new 4?


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## born2killspam (May 13, 2009)

28 hours 42 minutes and 13.235 seconds of light time..


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## lilkc (May 13, 2009)

K. Thankx Bt
Are u serious?
Where u find that info?
...Sounds like u trying 2 be a smart ass lol


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## 420weedman (May 13, 2009)

lilkc said:


> After u topp to get 4 main colas how long does it take for the plant to show any progress in makin the new 4?


its not making a new 4 ... they are already there they just become the new tops. id say 2 weeks and you see them more pronounced


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## ink slingin' in the 805 (May 13, 2009)

uncle ben, i know rep is over rated just a bit here but im sending some your way regardless. thank you for this very informative info. i am a 4 year vet with soil, new to deep water culture. however with my bubba kush i have in soil, i did exactly what your topping post informed me of, and today i have 6 bubbas in my garden, 5th week into flowering, 4 of them have 4 true colas, and 1 has 3 colas- (human error & a windy day) and 1 has 2 colas. i was able to achieve this all within a 2 month veg cycle before going into flowering. its amazing to see this happen for the first time and hard to believe, but, its hard not to believe when i look outside at my topped plants w/ multiple colas. this method is super easy and informative. thanks!


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## Uncle Ben (May 13, 2009)

ink slingin' in the 805 said:


> uncle ben, i know rep is over rated just a bit here but im sending some your way regardless. thank you for this very informative info. i am a 4 year vet with soil, new to deep water culture. however with my bubba kush i have in soil, i did exactly what your topping post informed me of, and today i have 6 bubbas in my garden, 5th week into flowering, 4 of them have 4 true colas, and 1 has 3 colas- (human error & a windy day) and 1 has 2 colas. i was able to achieve this all within a 2 month veg cycle before going into flowering. its amazing to see this happen for the first time and hard to believe, but, its hard not to believe when i look outside at my topped plants w/ multiple colas. this method is super easy and informative. thanks!


Wow! Thanks for taking the time to share your story. Happy harvest!

Actually lilkc, I've seen born2killspam "do it" in much less time, at least 36 nanoseconds. It's all in the balance.

UB


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## BLUNTED4REAL (May 13, 2009)

hey UB,
i was wonderin if you can top plants that have alternating nodesand if so would it still be above the second?


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## rolliepollie420 (May 14, 2009)

hey uncle ben nice avatar hahah


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## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2009)

BLUNTED4REAL said:


> hey UB,
> i was wonderin if you can top plants that have alternating nodesand if so would it still be above the second?


No, as discussed in a previous post.



rolliepollie420 said:


> hey uncle ben nice avatar hahah


Thanks. That was a rock hard cola.


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## weedsofdestiny (May 14, 2009)

_Nice technique in here.... check this out... (himalaya gold lst 10 main colas)_





















The top is a trainwreck with 20 main head internodes lst and lollypopped 

the bottom is my new himalaya clone with about 30 main head colas...


I vegged these plants for 4 weeks and cloned the bottom for internodes and left the top node to begin the topping process... every 2 or 3 days the new veg would be able to get topped again and so this process was repeated 6-7 maybe more however the results I imagine are going to be unimaginable since this is the first time ive tried this.... wish me luck +rep everyone !


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## Uncle Ben (May 15, 2009)

Nice job!

Good luck ~


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## lilkc (May 15, 2009)

Hey uncle Ben
when u top, does the 2 top colas weight the same as it would if u didnt top?


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## born2killspam (May 15, 2009)

He's gone over this a million times.. The plant's potential is determined by its root system, light intake, and environment.. Topping puts more production sites and fan leaves in the light's sweet spot, so light can be used more effectively, so with all other factors being equal, you're using your light better so you should see better production overall.. Shorter/stouter plants are easier to manage, and they tend to yield less scraggle down below, so your bottoms should be higher quality smoke..


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## Uncle Ben (May 16, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> He's gone over this a million times.. The plant's potential is determined by its root system, light intake, and environment..


Hey born2killspam, just want to say "thanks" for helping me out in this thread and others.

Best,
Tio


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## il3fe (May 16, 2009)

read this thread a few weeks ago, but i didnt read properly and made the mistake of cutting at the 5th node..
is this going to affect anything?!


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## born2killspam (May 16, 2009)

You'll likely get something fairly bush-like.. What strain??


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## TaylorBoy22 (May 16, 2009)

Hey UB and Born2Kill!! Great words, I love this shit!! I stayed up all night crammin this thread into my brain.

The only question I have is about Autoflowerig strains. I know you have topped them and the only thing I was wondering is whether you still waited for them to get to there 6th node or so or do you top earlier since they flower earlier??

I only ask because they flower so early that I didn' know if they wouldve started flowering by this height and I know you've mentioned b4 not to top in flowering.

Thanks!!!


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## Terabud (May 16, 2009)

GHS fem LS 12 days into flwr(flwrs on day 5) using Uncle Ben's 4 cola method (veg for 7.5 wks cut @ 5.5 wks ( 7-8th node just emerging)) .3m when I started 12-12 .6m now very healthly w/ thick stem. 3gal pot w/ FFO medium, started 1/2 strength Flora nutes 1wk into flwr. Old removed fans sticky w/ moderate lemon smell can't wait. 

Cudo's Uncle Ben outstanding thread! Thanks for guidance more to come.


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## Brabb (May 16, 2009)

Thanks Uncle Ben, I learned a lot. This is the most useful info on topping!! You couldnt of explained it any better. kiss-ass


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## Roland (May 16, 2009)

The one uder the HPS was topped 7 days into flowering and is total 13 days into flower


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## born2killspam (May 16, 2009)

Could those be teetering on a Mg deficiency Roland?


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## wrecka (May 17, 2009)

hey UB is there anyway you can upload a picture of a before and after topping of the plant? thx in advanced


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## Uncle Ben (May 17, 2009)

Terabud said:


> GHS fem LS 12 days into flwr(flwrs on day 5) using Uncle Ben's 4 cola method (veg for 7.5 wks cut @ 5.5 wks ( 7-8th node just emerging)) .3m when I started 12-12 .6m now very healthly w/ thick stem. 3gal pot w/ FFO medium, started 1/2 strength Flora nutes 1wk into flwr. Old removed fans sticky w/ moderate lemon smell can't wait.
> 
> Cudo's Uncle Ben outstanding thread! Thanks for guidance more to come.


Lookin' good! Glad to see you're having some fun.



Brabb said:


> Thanks Uncle Ben, I learned a lot. This is the most useful info on topping!! You couldnt of explained it any better. kiss-ass


Ditto from above.



Roland said:


> The one uder the HPS was topped 7 days into flowering and is total 13 days into flower



Looks like you got the hang of it.

Grow hard,
Uncle Ben


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## Roland (May 17, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Could those be teetering on a Mg deficiency Roland?


? Under the HPS ? I don't think so 

her's two pic's under better light 





[Looks like you got the hang of it.



Grow hard,
Uncle Ben[/quote]

Thanks UB


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## Roland (May 17, 2009)

here is 2nd pic .. haha sorry .. new at this !


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## born2killspam (May 17, 2009)

The reason I mentioned it was they seem to be pointing toward the sky.. I've seen that happen a few times just prior to initial blotching.. You're obviously taking good care of them though, so if any signs do show I'm sure you'll catch it quickly..


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## beyondtilt (May 17, 2009)

hmm my outdoor plants are already almost 2 months old....wont be flowering till August should I use this technique now?


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## Roland (May 17, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> The reason I mentioned it was they seem to be pointing toward the sky.. I've seen that happen a few times just prior to initial blotching.. You're obviously taking good care of them though, so if any signs do show I'm sure you'll catch it quickly..


I just checked on Magnesium deficiency .. thanks for the good eye !! I think they (mine) are just growin (stretching) so fast they haven't had time to spread yet .. hahaha .. I noticed they kinda point UP at the top too .. they seem to lay out for the light after one or two days .. and after the lights go out .

I'm gettting about an inch and a 1/2 of growth/ day right now 

Thanks for helpin' keep an eye out !


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## born2killspam (May 17, 2009)

I've noticed the healthier the plant, the more drastically the leaves droop/perk at lights off/on.. (And boy can they ever pump out alot of vegitative odour when they droop..) They always drooped like yours a few minutes before the light shut off, but when they perked back up, it was to near perfect horizontal.. 
I don't know what the mechanism is that they use to expect lights out.. Every photo-determining factor I've read about in cannabis either works only during the dark period, or is wavelength sensitive.. I have no idea what prompts that in an indoor grow..
Keep an eye out though, your theory doesn't explain the lower leaves doing the same as the newer growth..


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## Roland (May 18, 2009)

Different angle 

Hahaha u hit the nail on the head ! Lights out .. Beautiful aroma !!

also .. after watering 

They have been asleep about 4 hrs when pic taken 

Oh btw .. some of the stright up and down leaves are at outer edges of reflector and seem perpindicular to lamp .. .. and again .. good eye ! I'll be watching for any signs of prob's ..

thx again !


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## born2killspam (May 18, 2009)

Light seeking can contort some things into pretty funny positions.. No biggie though, if it is Mg then more definate signs will show, and you can give them some epsom salt and be done with the problem.. Mg is the most common deficiency I've seen, but probably the easiest to fix..


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## ijustgrowGREEN (May 18, 2009)

UB- just wanted to thank you and born2kill for the great info and advice on this thread. i plan on using it on a northern lights grow of mine, and cant wait to see the results. thanks again!


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## weedsofdestiny (May 18, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Light seeking can contort some things into pretty funny positions.. No biggie though, if it is Mg then more definate signs will show, and you can give them some epsom salt and be done with the problem.. Mg is the most common deficiency I've seen, but probably the easiest to fix..


 
What do the leaves and plants look like when they are having an all out deficiency ?


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## born2killspam (May 18, 2009)

There are many pics that show that first hand.. No sense wasting time on an insufficient description..


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## Uncle Ben (May 19, 2009)

beyondtilt said:


> hmm my outdoor plants are already almost 2 months old....wont be flowering till August should I use this technique now?


If it suits yer fancy, why not?



ijustgrowGREEN said:


> UB- just wanted to thank you and born2kill for the great info and advice on this thread. i plan on using it on a northern lights grow of mine, and cant wait to see the results. thanks again!



Welcome - enjoy.

Hey guys, I don't see any evidence of Mg deficiency, which shows up in lower to mid leaf chlorosis, taking on more of a whitish appearance as opposed to iron deficiency induced chlorosis which takes on a yellow appearance between veins.

Begs the question, does your plant food contain Mg and are the NPK values pretty well balanced? BTW, 1 1/2" a day is great growth!

Have fun,
UB


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## Roland (May 19, 2009)

Hahaha Thanx Ben !! Yeah .. I'm pretty happy with the way they r goin'! NPK should be pretty well balanced .. I use my own compost mixed w/ Supersoil and give 'em a shot o' Botanicare Liquid Karma and Sweet when I water (also a few "drops" of fish emulsion every few days (even during early flowering ) ..just to be sure.


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## born2killspam (May 20, 2009)

There is no definate way to define results there.. It depends on your grow space, but usually light is used better when you distribute foliage laterally.. 
This thread needs a fucking FAQ of its own..


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## johnnysacoseeds (May 20, 2009)

I'm gonna guess you get more, why do it if not?

Some things we know from this thread are that it opens up the plant to allow for more light penetration. More light = more growth. 

Also, I think somewhere or other UB stated that the colas would not be as large as one cola left to grow naturally, but the combined output of the 2/4 colas exceeds that of the single cola. Another point is harvesting the top colas and allowing the lower buds to mature, which gives you more output.


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## Njayjay (May 20, 2009)

Hi I'm just wondering if the 4 cola method works with any strain, im thinking of growing C99, kali mist, SSH, and some bushy indicas too.

Also is LST or SCROG of any use if i top for 4 colas?

And also how much longer do i need to veg the plant out after the topping? I have some 400 lights and DWC buckets i'm thinking of doing 100w per plant. 

Peace


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## Uncle Ben (May 20, 2009)

johnnysacoseeds said:


> I'm gonna guess you get more, why do it if not?
> 
> Some things we know from this thread are that it opens up the plant to allow for more light penetration. More light = more growth.
> 
> Also, I think somewhere or other UB stated that the colas would not be as large as one cola left to grow naturally, but the combined output of the 2/4 colas exceeds that of the single cola. Another point is harvesting the top colas and allowing the lower buds to mature, which gives you more output.


Yep, you understand "the methods of my madness". 



Njayjay said:


> Hi I'm just wondering if the 4 cola method works with any strain, im thinking of growing C99, kali mist, SSH, and some bushy indicas too.


As I've explained before, this is a hormonal issue. Hormones, their collection and distribution within the plant, controls and drives all plant processes. All I'm doing is playing games with da ho moans.

[


> Also is LST or SCROG of any use if i top for 4 colas?


Apples and oranges.



> And also how much longer do i need to veg the plant out after the topping?


 How big do you want the plant to get? 

Your call. Plan your grow, grow your plan and adjust accordingly.

UB


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## Njayjay (May 20, 2009)

So u are saying man this can be done with any strain? Kinda a newb here peace


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## Uncle Ben (May 21, 2009)

Njayjay said:


> So u are saying man this can be done with any strain? Kinda a newb here peace


Yes. It can be done with a maple tree if you so desire.


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## klmmicro (May 21, 2009)

I popped 10 Afghan seeds a few weeks ago. I "weeded out" four that were starting out weak and so I have 6 left. They are all short, stocky plants so topping is kind of hard when they are you. I am going to top all six though and I am really anxious to see the results. This thread is inspiring some serious fun!

So far they are starting on their 4th node. I am going to top them at the 5th and strip the "slowest" two side shoots so that only 4 remain. I figure with six plants I should have 3 females to work with. This should be interesting for my latest medical grow.


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## born2killspam (May 21, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yes. It can be done with a maple tree if you so desire.


Ever see it done with an oak tree?? The remaining stump almost grows like a freakin Chia Pet..


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## beyondtilt (May 22, 2009)

Can I get input on exactly where I need to top my plants??? I'm still unsure of what "true node" means. My plants are 7 weeks old and have six of what I believe to be "true" nodes (where four branches meet the main stem, two are thick the other two thin). I am not including the one still developing at the very top.... here is a pic of one of the plants and is marked where I plan on topping it.... is this the right spot for 4 colas or do I need to go down another node?

THANKS!!!!


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## simedru24 (May 22, 2009)

Unlce Ben,

I've been reading up on your posts/threads and have learned an incredible amount of knowledge.
However, Im kinda confused on EXACTLY where to cut. So here goes my first question to you..

Do you have a diagram of exactly where to top, in order to get 4 colas?
I see so many uninformed ppl making diagrams and hindering the correct way to understand it. 
Can you please direct me to or provide a diagram of how to do this? 

I think I understand most of it, but I am a visual learner and it would be VERY helpful!

Thanks!


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## born2killspam (May 22, 2009)

https://www.rollitup.org/2125950-post205.html Way back on page 6.. This has been asked alot..


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## Charger (May 22, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/2125950-post205.html Way back on page 6.. This has been asked alot..


You did well to remember that


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## Charger (May 22, 2009)

OK, I take that back, as you made the post. Shouldn't it be 5/6 as in original post?


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## beyondtilt (May 22, 2009)

my outdoor plants are anywhere from 5-9 nodes tall now. According to the chart , especially my 9 node plants, I can expect them to be much smaller colas than if I had topped them early on. Does it still make sense to top at this point for the most yield??? They should be vegging into august giving me plenty of time.....


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## Uncle Ben (May 22, 2009)

beyondtilt said:


> my outdoor plants are anywhere from 5-9 nodes tall now. According to the chart , especially my 9 node plants, I can expect them to be much smaller colas than if I had topped them early on. Does it still make sense to top at this point for the most yield??? They should be vegging into august giving me plenty of time.....


Don't top, would be my recommendation. Just keep 'em green.

UB


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## born2killspam (May 22, 2009)

Charger said:


> You did well to remember that


Actually, I hunted a few pages for it without luck, then noticed somebody +rep'd me for it recently, and it linked me right to it.. Most useful reputation event yet.. Most of the rep I get is just for making ppl laugh via sarcasm..

Oh and I think you're confusing the original post.. UB's method calls to top down to where that pic shows 'when' the plants are at 5-6 nodes, not to 5th-6th node..


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## kootabuds (May 23, 2009)

Here are some pics of my plants, I topped them after reading this guide (for 4 main colas).

They have just gone into flowering, about 5 days in. Ignore the little ones next to them, they are still babies that im experimenting with.


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## born2killspam (May 23, 2009)

+rep because your skill is not adequately reflected by your posting/reputation history.. Thats very nice..


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## Uncle Ben (May 23, 2009)

I agree, that is really nice kootabuds. I really respect someone that can grow a plant that looks that good and healthy. Keep up the good work. I also like the fact that you're using reflective material on all planes (except the ceiling of course.) I use moveable side panels as a tweek keeping them as close to the plants as possible throughout the plant's life.

Hope you enjoy all those main colas.

Tio


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## Uncle Ben (May 23, 2009)

simedru24 said:


> Unlce Ben,
> 
> I've been reading up on your posts/threads and have learned an incredible amount of knowledge.
> However, Im kinda confused on EXACTLY where to cut. So here goes my first question to you..
> ...


See page one. Don't have a diagram, and you don't need one. Just pinch out the plant above the 2nd true node. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Good luck,
UB


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## merahoon (May 23, 2009)

Hey UB,

I was searching other grow site and I was at a page devoted mainly to vertical growing. I was impressed till I saw a thread saying Topping to get 2 or 4 MAIN colas. It didn't have your name anywhere in it. The guy that runs the site tried to clame it was his and I just wanted to give you the link in case you wanted to say anything. http://www.verticalgreen.org/showthread.php?t=20 It's sad people will take other people work and claim it as their own.


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## born2killspam (May 23, 2009)

But brutal plagarism is the highest form of flattery.. If you do go there UB don't announce yourself, just pose as an ultra-noob and play with his head..


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## kootabuds (May 23, 2009)

merahoon said:


> Hey UB,
> 
> I was searching other grow site and I was at a page devoted mainly to vertical growing. I was impressed till I saw a thread saying Topping to get 2 or 4 MAIN colas. It didn't have your name anywhere in it. The guy that runs the site tried to clame it was his and I just wanted to give you the link in case you wanted to say anything. http://www.verticalgreen.org/showthread.php?t=20 It's sad people will take other people work and claim it as their own.


He doesn't claim it as his own, he says "I decided to reproduce a thread on my favorite topping method published at cann.com about 10 years ago. Even though I've got much better photos from many latter grows both indoor and outdoor, I'm gonna stick with the old photos from the original thread."

He said he got it from cann.com 10 years ago. Did you post it there 10 years ago UB?


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## kootabuds (May 23, 2009)

Thanks born2killspam and UB for your comments on my pics.

There going pretty good for my first grow 

Had a few problems early on, but got them sorted pretty quicky.


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## born2killspam (May 23, 2009)

They're going good for any grow.. It must suck to know you're not going to get much better no matter how hard you try..


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## lilkc (May 24, 2009)

HEy Uncle Ben! I jus Fimmed my plant On Saturday Mornin. It stopped growin 4 a few then it started back that day.
But wat should i be lookin 4 if it worked???
By the way my plant is 2weeks 2day.
I fimmed the 3rd set of leaves that were about 2 come in


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## born2killspam (May 24, 2009)

FIM is a different techinique.. It is topping, but UB tops large, where as FIM is topping small.. Actually, if done properly (which is easier said than done unless you've got the hands of a brain sugeon) FIMing is actually precisely topping before the topmost two nodes stretch apart.. The node you see, and the infant node inside of it, before it grows further upward..
Hormone shifts are identical, with FIM you may still get new shoots coming out at lower nodes, but as UB stated he takes the plant down to the second node because topping a plant pretty much will always facilitate strong new growth for 2 nodes downwards, and anything further is unpredictable (unless you know from experience what the particular plant responds like)..
Anyways, so when you FIM properly, you remove the apical meristem, which stops the nodes from separating, and your two new outputs from each of those nodes will grow upwards from virtually the same place instead of being separated by one normal length nodal spacing as UB's method does.. If you FIM improperly, you'll damage the infant node, and either won't get outputs from it at all, (if this occurs you will likely get outputs at the node directly below the visible node you cut at, since as stated most plants are good for shoots from atleast 2 nodes or you'll get failed outputs from the infant node, two outputs from the visible node, and possibly more below..


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## lilkc (May 24, 2009)

That was very helpful kuz i didnt let them spread apart a lil be4 i fimm'ed it, i jus cut the tip of the 2 leaves.
Would that hurt it any??


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## born2killspam (May 24, 2009)

You misunderstand.. If you topped at the 3rd set of fan leaves, then the two nodes in question, are nodes 3 and 4, not 2 and 3.. The infant node is inside of the topmost node.. If you didn't cut low enough then you did nothing since the apical meristem is still intact, therefore the auxin deployment has not been altered, and upward growth will continue.. You'll just have some slice up fan leaves at node 3.. Here is a pic I grabbed from some other thread, and have posted in this one before.. Spread the top node apart to get a look..


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## lilkc (May 24, 2009)

OK i understand now, so should i let it grow sum more


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## born2killspam (May 24, 2009)

Depends on your grow space max height, and personal desire.. There are so many ways to control growth, and none are defacto better than any other for all spaces/growers..


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## lilkc (May 24, 2009)

i got (5) 26-watt 6500k cfls 
Is that gud enuff 4 now?


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## born2killspam (May 24, 2009)

Thats fine for vegging at this point, but will disappoint come flowering.. Grab your phone book, and call electrical/lighting outfitters, the kind contractors would go to, and ask what they carry for HID's.. I used to get 400W hps and systems complete for like $50-60cdn.. (Well, none came with cords, and you might not be able to get suitable reflectors there).. Transformer and bulb (and ignitor for hps) are the critical things if you're confident you can do the rest yourself (but do be sure to do it safely.. These lights are as safe as your installation)..
Alot of ppl use them in garages, and in back yards etc.. You don't need to shoot your mouth off with some dumb story though.. MH are going to be more common, but most places I've been to had both in stock.. MH is sufficient though.. Granted 400W of MH only pumps as many photosynthetically active photons as perhaps 275W of HPS (number of suitable photons is the only true measure of light intensity for plants), but will still blow any cfl away, and honestly I think they grow better buds.. 
Those places are the best source for any type of light really, if you can't handle HID get more than a few larger cfls or t5HO's.. Any hid investment will pay for itself 10x over on your first crop though..
Anyways, this is getting kinda hijacky, so if you have a thread, link to it, if not, start one..


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## suTraGrow (May 24, 2009)

wow took me bout 2 and a half days but i finally read the whole thread page 1 to 59. GREAT INFO!! Thank you.


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## born2killspam (May 24, 2009)

You can set your options to fit it all into 15 pages if that would make it easier..


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## Uncle Ben (May 25, 2009)

As an aside, for you who have sent me messages under the option of "New Visitor Messages", wanting some input, I can't help ya, as I can't respond. When I click on your message I get re-routed to the Uncle Ben profile. Last dude to do this is the guy that goes by the handle of _dontcallmedude_. 

Sorry, aint my problem. It's a tech glitch.


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## Jerry Garcia (May 26, 2009)

Hey UB! Using your tutelage I topped four bagseed plants after a couple weeks in 12/12 to determine sex. After topping, I reverted all of them back to vegging to let the cola's bulk up before really flowering. All of them had a tough time with the transition, but seem to have straightened themselves out now (after ~one week of vegging), except one. She developed sex organs much faster than the others but remained on the 12/12 cycle after topping, causing the two larger colas to start budding. I topped each one of those above the first node on the cola to try and stimulate some new growth, presumably 4 additional colas.

Is there a finite time after which the plant _cannot_ be taken from flower back to vegging?

Thanks for your help!


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## born2killspam (May 26, 2009)

This is the kind of thing that will definately be strain/plant specific, and even on approach since trimming the upper stuff pretty viciously can speed up the process, but with obvious drawbacks.. Then we kinda gotta decide when the proper label would be revegging, rather than reverting..The larger the plant, the longer it will take to revert.. When you do revert, expect some funny mutant unserated, single lobed foliage.. It will go back to normal eventually though..
So to summarize, any plants that can be revegged can be reverted at any time, you just need to decide what you consider feasible.. If you want to trim the hell out of it to speed things up, or wait a few weeks to a couple months maybe for a fuller plant plant to kick back into early season type growth.. And really, in my experience with reverting, even after only a few days into 12/12, the plant will be pretty dedicated towards flowering.. I've flipped them back at 4 days and had to wait about 3 weeks to really be happy, and I've flipped them back at 16 days and had to wait roughly the same amount of time.. But then again, those were two entirely different genetics.. NL5, and Skunk#1 respectively.. (Furthermore on that note, the NL5 blasted out pistils alot more quickly after flipping than the Skunk#1, but that makes sense, because the NL5 pheno's were much more indica prevalent..)

Edit: I don't know if autos can really be revegged.. Recently somebody who I think knew what they were doing, tried but the plants apparently died.. Sorry I can't remember who that was, or in which thread..


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## lilkc (May 26, 2009)

Koll, i might Re-vegg after i harvest.
Bt hey i finally Fimmed properly yesterday.
Wat should start happening & when wil it happen?
Im pretty exicted 2 see how many Colas i get


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## Cronigar (May 26, 2009)

does topping waist energy on steam and leaf growth. or does the colas always outway the set back of the shock from cliping ? thanks for taking the time to reply.


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## born2killspam (May 26, 2009)

Arg... You NEED stem and leaf to facilitate bud growth.. How can you call it a waste?? This new facination with leafless growing baffles me.. 
(And I'm pretty sure UB feels atleast as strongly on that matter as I do..)


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## johnnysacoseeds (May 26, 2009)

I think he was trying to ask if cutting off the 3-4 nodes worth of growth above the second node, as UB directs, is a waste of growth, hence the question "...or does the colas always outway the set back of the shock from cliping ?". 

Personally, I understand the frustration of what it must be like to answer the same questions over and over, when ACTUALLY READING THE POST would eliminate 90% of the questions, so props to you guys for sticking with a long-lived thread like this. 

Cronigar - UB has stated numerous times that their is no stress created by topping, and the yield is greater with this method.


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## born2killspam (May 26, 2009)

No, while those nodes are growing, so is the root system.. The bigger and better the root system, the better it will grow..


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## LOVE4GROWING (May 26, 2009)

i like that you posted this i read about it a few years ago and have try'd it a couple of times.
i got it to shoot 2 cola's and after i try'd again i failed so i stopped doin it but i do remember that the 2 cola's i had at my first try where much much bigger then the others i never snipped.
if you could help me by makin a good picture of the whole plant with a before and after you snipped the topp it would be great.
but if you can't post pic's pls try to help me a lil bit more i find this very interessting.
i'm gettin alot of mixed info and it looks like you really really know.
pls help me.


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## johnnysacoseeds (May 27, 2009)

Check out post #205 complements of borntokillspam


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## Uncle Ben (May 27, 2009)

Jerry Garcia said:


> Hey UB! Using your tutelage I topped four bagseed plants after a couple weeks in 12/12 to determine sex. After topping, I reverted all of them back to vegging to let the cola's bulk up before really flowering. All of them had a tough time with the transition, but seem to have straightened themselves out now (after ~one week of vegging), except one. She developed sex organs much faster than the others but remained on the 12/12 cycle after topping, causing the two larger colas to start budding. I topped each one of those above the first node on the cola to try and stimulate some new growth, presumably 4 additional colas.
> 
> Is there a finite time after which the plant _cannot_ be taken from flower back to vegging?
> 
> Thanks for your help!


No, cause it's based on hormonal responses, phytochrome.



born2killspam said:


> Arg... You NEED stem and leaf to facilitate bud growth.. How can you call it a waste?? This new facination with leafless growing baffles me..


Wat, you can't grow pot without leaves? Hell, everyone is doing it.

cya ~


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## Roseman (May 27, 2009)

https://www.rollitup.org/toke-n-talk/197724-admirable-noteworthy-members-here.html

Uncle Ben, can you visit this thread??? You're mentioned there.


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## Uncle Ben (May 28, 2009)

Roseman said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/toke-n-talk/197724-admirable-noteworthy-members-here.html
> 
> Uncle Ben, can you visit this thread??? You're mentioned there.


....on my way.


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## num1runningbak (May 29, 2009)

I have visited this time atleast 20 times in the past month and I think I have finally read everything but still have some questions. 

I am growing 4 Ice seeds, I dunno if this is just a rebadged name like you talk about earlier but hey worth a try lol. Back to the questions. I have 4 plants all growing well. I would like top top all 4 after the second node as they all have 4 working on 5th node. My question is I only have these 4 plants so would like to make 2 mothers from them. Should I top the ones I want to make mothers, Im assuming this is called a Bonsai mother, heard this once before. Also can you top the "tops" you clipped off after they have rooted or is it just better to put them into flowering? 

Thanks in advance sorry if the second questions has asked I skipped around a lot but have probably read atleast 40 pages lol


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## num1runningbak (May 29, 2009)

sorry forgot to put some information. I am using a DWC system with a 400 W hps on the way now GH nutes. This is my first grow here are pictures of the ladies before and after moving to larger res.


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## kootabuds (May 30, 2009)

Uncle Ben and Born2killspam, checkout my bitches now! They've been growing 1.5 inches a day since my last post:

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/182181-my-super-skunk-hydro-grow-6.html#post2553519


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## born2killspam (May 30, 2009)

You can either top them and make the 1st gen clones mothers, or top them and use the topped seedling as a mother (technically a tad more true to the genetics).. Whatever you like really.. And you can top anything you fancy.. Topping clones will accelerate the secondary growth, and will help even your canopy out, but it won't be as predictable as seedling topping..


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## Kush baby Kush (May 30, 2009)

Can you top a plant when its small but after it has its 7 leafs?


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## Roseman (May 30, 2009)

Kush baby Kush said:


> Can you top a plant when its small but after it has its 7 leafs?


 
You sure can.
Almost all questions on Topping and Pruning and Fimming are answered in
the first five to ten pages of this thread.

*Uncle Ben,* I run a thread on only one Subject, BUBBLEPONICS, and it has grown to over 7000 posts on nearly 800 pages. I've found I need to keep re-posting the same amswers to the same questions over and over again, to the point I have "book-marked" or saved several "same answers" in MY FAVORITES so I can copy and paste them over again for the same asked questions.


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## born2killspam (May 30, 2009)

Again, I think they should give atleast ppl who manage threads like this permanent edit permission.. That way page 1 could stay 100% current.. Reposting the updated OP every 50 posts or so is a good idea though..


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## merahoon (May 30, 2009)

Well I sure hope this hasn't been asked. I know it wasn't asked in the first 20 pages or so though. When growing from seed your first set of true leaves is a singleblade, followed by three blades on the second node, and finally the full five on the third node. I noticed the new growth growing between nodes is much weaker at the first node then the next two. Insated of topping above the second true node *three blades), could you cut all the growth on the first node (single blade) and top above the third node (five blades) but makingi t act as if it were the second node. Does that make sense? I just wonder if you would get a better output because the growth on the other nodes seem to be much more aggressive then the growth on the first.


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## smoken&token (May 30, 2009)

yes for sure awesome info dude iv been growing for well this is my fith summer and iv always keep singel colas ...gonna try this on a few plants thanx again


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## born2killspam (May 30, 2009)

That single blade sounds like the false node cotyledons.. Only time I've seen single lobes is on reverted, or plants that were water stressed severely..


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## lilkc (May 31, 2009)

Ok people straighten this False Node thing out, ur confusin alot of noobs.
Is the False Node Cotyledons the Very First Green Leaves that come out the seed?????
Or the Next Single Blade 1's????


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## born2killspam (May 31, 2009)

The very first.. You cannot see a true node when the seedling pops, but the very next leaves that grow in is a true node..


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## merahoon (May 31, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> That single blade sounds like the false node cotyledons.. Only time I've seen single lobes is on reverted, or plants that were water stressed severely..


No, the cotyledons are the first round fake looking leaves. Then you have the single bladed marijuana leave. Every single seed I have grown has them so I know this isn't out of the ordinary. THe next set of leaves goes to three blades and then set after that begins its full five blades. Thats the same way it goes every time for me. Keep in mind, I'm talking about from SEED.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 1, 2009)

merahoon said:


> No, the cotyledons are the first round fake looking leaves. Then you have the single bladed marijuana leave. Every single seed I have grown has them so I know this isn't out of the ordinary. THe next set of leaves goes to three blades and then set after that begins its full five blades. Thats the same way it goes every time for me. Keep in mind, I'm talking about from SEED.


That's correct. The round "leaves" are not leaves, they are food storage organs aka endosperm. That is not considered a node regarding my method. As you stated, the rest of growth is the progression from a juvenile stage to adult stage.

When you re-veg, you will see a reversion back to the juvenile single or 3 leaf leafsets you alluded to.

Tio


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## Pitraptor (Jun 1, 2009)

Never tried for 4 before but now that you mention it it seems the obvious choice, unless your vertically challenged. Also your explaination of the hormone response was excellent and easy to understand. Thanks, my girls are gonna love ya and +rep!


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 1, 2009)

merahoon said:


> Well I sure hope this hasn't been asked. I know it wasn't asked in the first 20 pages or so though. When growing from seed your first set of true leaves is a singleblade, followed by three blades on the second node, and finally the full five on the third node. I noticed the new growth growing between nodes is much weaker at the first node then the next two. Insated of topping above the second true node *three blades), could you cut all the growth on the first node (single blade) and top above the third node (five blades) but makingi t act as if it were the second node.


No. Try to understand what the plant's actual anatomy is regarding plant parts and their functions and how plant hormones control all plant functions and processes. There are dormant buds that reside within the axis where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk". These are capable of output. If underground, they become roots, if above ground, leafsets with petioles. 

Again, when you pinch out the growth above the 2nd true node, you induce a hormonal re-distribution to those 4 dormant buds. You have now created 4 new dominant leaders (which will become 4 main colas) regarding "apical dominance" instead of the usual one. 

The fact that your stem may be weaker at some point is not a problem, that's just an issue of age regarding normal development. As the plant matures the stem (trunk) becomes stronger from the bottom up.

UB


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## lilkc (Jun 1, 2009)

i Fimmed like a 2weeks ago & now i see 2 leaves comin out where the Branches meet the trunk & at the very top of the plant it looks messy bt its alot of new growth, i kant tell how many leaves are gonna come outta there. Does anybody know wat im talking about?


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## merahoon (Jun 1, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> No. Try to understand what the plant's actual anatomy is regarding plant parts and their functions and how plant hormones control all plant functions and processes. There are dormant buds that reside within the axis where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk". These are capable of output. If underground, they become roots, if above ground, leafsets with petioles.
> 
> Again, when you pinch out the growth above the 2nd true node, you induce a hormonal re-distribution to those 4 dormant buds. You have now created 4 new dominant leaders (which will become 4 main colas) regarding "apical dominance" instead of the usual one.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Good to know. Thank you for helping me to further understand how the plant works!


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## strangerdude562 (Jun 1, 2009)

During what week of veg is best to top?


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## livesoul (Jun 2, 2009)

Since your on the topic of plants anatomy. I have some seeds i germinated and they stretched a lot, to where they are falling over. The stem is basically white and very long (4-5 inches approx), Sorta looks like a root? They are currently in rapid rooters, gonna transfer them into hydrotron for my ebb&flow. This white stem...is it just cause its young? Or is it an extension of the root? Would it be a problem if this part of the plant got wet when my tables flooded?


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 2, 2009)

livesoul said:


> Since your on the topic of plants anatomy. I have some seeds i germinated and they stretched a lot,....


Sounds like you didn't give them enough light. Seedlings are fragile but stand on their own under normal circumstances. 

Getting the stem wet is asking for Damp-off problems.

Glad to help merahoon.

Make it a great day,
UB


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## born2killspam (Jun 2, 2009)

Don't shock them with a serious intensity upgrade right away though, seedlings are definately fragile..
If they're up to the task of shifting towards light you can use that to strengthen the stems by putting the light indirectly above them, and keep rotating them such that the shoots are forced to grow back towards it.. There is scientific understanding of how auxins beef up the stems when bending to get light.. Similar concept to the fan wobble.. IIRC UB doesn't actually consider fan strengthening effective.. Personally I'm torn on that one since I get the feeling that cell growth likely can't keep up with other cell destruction if they never get a chance to rest (kind of like how your muscles actually grow after workouts and during sleep, the workout itself actually destroys muscle fibers).. But regardless, that will help protect you from stem rot, just don't over do it, what doesn't make them stronger only kills them..


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 3, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Don't shock them with a serious intensity upgrade right away though, seedlings are definately fragile..
> If they're up to the task of shifting towards light you can use that to strengthen the stems by putting the light indirectly above them, and keep rotating them such that the shoots are forced to grow back towards it..


My feeling for the development of strong stems is plenty of light and adequate P. What is "adequate" you say? Something like a 10-10-10 or perhaps a 9-3-6.



> There is scientific understanding of how auxins beef up the stems when bending to get light..


Phototropism, or the plant's response to a point of light by elongating/expanding the cells on the shady side to tilt the plant material into the light source. Hope you don't mind me getting anal. 



> Similar concept to the fan wobble.. IIRC UB doesn't actually consider fan strengthening effective.. Personally I'm torn on that one since I get the feeling that cell growth likely can't keep up with other cell destruction if they never get a chance to rest (kind of like how your muscles actually grow after workouts and during sleep, the workout itself actually destroys muscle fibers).. But regardless, that will help protect you from stem rot, just don't over do it, what doesn't make them stronger only kills them..


My theory to using fans to supposedly strengthen stems is based on plant damage like you alluded to with the muscle thingie. Kicker is to create stem fissures which will callous over you need to have hurricane force winds before anything will happen, and even then any positive benefits is debatable. (One thing that is not debatable is that cannabis forum paradigms die hard.) Chances are you'll just end up with a broken plant that you either have to stint or shit-can. Trust me, I live on a hillside that gets 20-40 mph winds quite often. All it does is tear stuff up.  

Fans are best used for keeping fungus pressure down and mixing up the air a bit regarding gases.

Later.......


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## born2killspam (Jun 3, 2009)

> Phototropism, or the plant's response to a point of light by elongating/expanding the cells on the shady side to tilt the plant material into the light source. Hope you don't mind me getting anal.


Plants are soo cool eh??


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 3, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Plants are soo cool eh??


Yep, and so is your approach. Good stuff mah man!


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## born2killspam (Jun 3, 2009)

My approach turns with the wind, and seems to get less intensive as I learn more.. Started with hydro and screens, now I just like stout plants in free&cheap dirt mixes (the free stuff came from low lying loamy forest areas.. I never got burned by bugs doing that, though I've read about the risks).. I'm going all out with my dad's method this season.. I can't grow in the house, and I can't take any risk of getting burned tending plants, so I took a walk with a few seeds in my pocket, and I'll take another walk in late October to see whats standing.. Its funny how the police around here do aerial searches in the weeks surrounding labour day.. I guess thats because everyone harvests waay premature around here.. In previous seasons that really erked me, but this time its going to work to my advantage.. Another thing working to my advantage is mosquitos.. THEY ARE BRUTAL THIS YEAR!! Not many kids are going to want to go thieving there for most of the season..


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 3, 2009)

I don't know what's worse - thieves or mosquitos. It's a given that both must be squashed.

Good luck....


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## strangerdude562 (Jun 3, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I don't know what's worse - thieves or mosquitos. It's a given that both must be squashed.
> 
> Good luck....



During what week of veg or flower is best to top?


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## born2killspam (Jun 3, 2009)

The OP is pretty clear.. UB waits until 6 or so nodes before topping to allow them to build a substantial root system with that foliage, then tops then way down.. This way they're ready to take-off with new growth, and hit 12/12 running.. How many weeks does it take your plants in your setup to reach 6 nodes?? That would be how many weeks is suggested with his method..


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## OutdoIndo (Jun 3, 2009)

I've recently picked up my old gardening hobby, it's been calling to me for about 5 years now. I wanted to experiment since a lot of things have changed over the years as far as better CFL's and LED's. Anyways, to make this long story shorter, I have had a ton of luck with one particular plant, I intentionally bent and shaped the stem, from birth, in a circle (slowly & gently) around the pot. Keeping it in place with paperclips and clothspins. Within 3 weeks of manipulation, the plant had formed a nice 1/2 inch woody "trunk" and was nice, and short and bushy. Exactly the results I was looking for b/c I am using a fairly small grow space. This strand is also developing really, very quickly. As you can see, a nice thick stem and dense cluster buds @ just 26 days! I can't w8 to try some more.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 3, 2009)

OutdoIndo said:


> .....I intentionally bent and shaped the stem, from birth, in a circle (slowly & gently) around the pot. Keeping it in place with paperclips and clothspins. Within 3 weeks of manipulation,.....


(Catches breath) Sheesh! Ever thought of submitting that one to: http://www.simplefling.com/xxx87201/xx.htm

Keep it bushy,
UB


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## OutdoIndo (Jun 3, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> (Catches breath) Sheesh! Ever thought of submitting that one to: http://www.simplefling.com/xxx87201/xx.htm
> 
> Keep it bushy,
> UB


LOL, thanks, preciate the comparison i'm taking that as a compliment, but seriously, thanks 4 helping ppl like me want 2 put our green thumbs back in business.


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## born2killspam (Jun 3, 2009)

I've seen that wrap around lst method work really well, but I've also seen utter failures that just ended up a tangled mess that was pretty much solidified as a tangled mess.. Its a tough method to master I suppose.. All UB's method asks of the grower is that they can count to two.. Its kind of funny how many ppl ask for help with that..


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## OutdoIndo (Jun 4, 2009)

yeah, i had to cut the branches that were touching the soil before they began to rot or hide buggies. As you can see, i did different things with the plants, and unfortunately, i don't know what strands i am using either. so my methods are purely for the "fun" of it. i planted 8 seeds simultaneously and only two have shown female, the 3rd and last one i have (5 came out males) is taking 4ever to sex ... but i also topped it very early and had it outside for the first few weeks, until i saw the indooors doing so much better, and brought it in.

I am very happy with that indica or hybrid, whatever it is. it gets me up in the morning


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## born2killspam (Jun 4, 2009)

Its buds you really gotta worry about wetness with as long as the plant is established.. Read up on adventitious roots, its pretty nifty when you see it..


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## born2killspam (Jun 4, 2009)

Its buds you really gotta worry about wetness with as long as the plant is established.. Read up on adventitious roots, its pretty nifty when you see it..

Edit: WTF, a 4hr lagged double post??


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## OutdoIndo (Jun 4, 2009)

Cool thanks born2killspam.


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## merahoon (Jun 4, 2009)

Hey UB,

Do you have any book references for me so I could begin learning the science behind plant growth. I want to be able to obtain this knowledge without having to ask everyone, how things work or how to get the plant to do a certain thing.


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## born2killspam (Jun 4, 2009)

Its all on the net dude.. The problem with books is they'll either be really dumbed down, and expansive, or very advanced, and you won't be able to comprehend enough to justify the textbook price, and it will still leave you with a ton of holes in knowledge.. Atleast start on the net.. Google Books will be a big supplier of that info, and you might find books you'd like to buy if you want to go that indepth..


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 5, 2009)

Yeah, the internet has tons of good sites. Google is your friend. If your area has a Master Gardeners program, suggest you enroll. In general, if folks would be spend less time seeking (and taking) advice at cannabis forums and more time at general plant culture sites and their local ag extension service, they would be much better growers. My first indoor effort was one of my best, and I didn't have any pot books or the internet to check out, just common sense regarding plant culture. I don't know how so many people can screw up growing a weed, but they seem to manage.  

UB


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## born2killspam (Jun 5, 2009)

When was that UB? And what was the technology you had like??


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 5, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> When was that UB? And what was the technology you had like??


There is no technology involved in growing a weed, that's my point.


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## born2killspam (Jun 5, 2009)

Yo Uncle Ben, since the topic of seedling care has come up, whats your take on rubbing stems for strength?? I haven't done that many from seed, and I rubbed them all because that seemed to be a popular trick on OG, so I have no idea whether it helped or not..

Edit: And on that last question, I meant what were you using for lights?? Street lights?? (I know you could buy them, because my grand parents had them..)


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## highwaystar415 (Jun 6, 2009)

hey man check this out.. i have 10 plants i topped 3 like your directions. those thre are very bushy but no buds, the other 7 are 2-3 ft tall full nice buds. they are 12/12 now for 5 weeks. they had 1 week in floro.at 24/7.. the rest 1000hps. soil.. why do the 3 plants i have topped have 0 buds.. no balls . they have hairs, very weird. will they still be good for hash??


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## born2killspam (Jun 6, 2009)

That I've never seen or heard of..


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## Lowkster (Jun 6, 2009)

What happens if I pinch off my plant after the third node? How many colas will I get?


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## Cyproz (Jun 6, 2009)

in those pictures in the OP, u just straight up cut off below the node? i thought u leave like 20% growth, but if u can just cut the whole thing off below the node it would be way easier.


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## born2killspam (Jun 6, 2009)

Thats FIMing.. M Blaze just started a similar thread on that.. Similar concept (well exactly the same hormonally), but that method attempts to get the new outputs before any nodal separation of the new growth.. The nice thing about topping is it lets you roll back the clock on the height issue.. Shorter plants are typically stouter plants given similar root systems..


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 7, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Yo Uncle Ben, since the topic of seedling care has come up, whats your take on rubbing stems for strength?? I haven't done that many from seed, and I rubbed them all because that seemed to be a popular trick on OG, so I have no idea whether it helped or not..


I've got better things to do with my hands.  If your attempt is to bruise/crush the epidermal tissue hoping it will callous over, well I guess it might. Then again it might not. Hoo nose?



> Edit: And on that last question, I meant what were you using for lights?? Street lights?? (I know you could buy them, because my grand parents had them..)


I was using 400W MH in a Sunmaster hood and a 600 HPS in a retrofitted Diamond lights hood. I retrofitted the gull wing insert with specular material. Built my own ballast too using the electronic guts housed in an electrical junction box. 



highwaystar415 said:


> hey man check this out.. i have 10 plants i topped 3 like your directions. those thre are very bushy but no buds, the other 7 are 2-3 ft tall full nice buds. they are 12/12 now for 5 weeks. they had 1 week in floro.at 24/7.. the rest 1000hps. soil.. why do the 3 plants i have topped have 0 buds.. no balls . they have hairs, very weird. will they still be good for hash??


Something's missing here. Your topping should have no effect on bud production. Were the 3 you topped of different genetics?

Tio


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## cwallace48 (Jun 7, 2009)

my plkant is already two feet tall and about a foot wide, i have not cut my plant at all, but its cool how you made it have four huge buds, is it too late to cut the top out of mine or is it too late, it has white hairs and some red and i grow it outside in a pot in the back yard???????I'm new at this any help would be appreciaated thanks


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## highwaystar415 (Jun 7, 2009)

yes. they were bagseed.. really weird. they r 2 ft very bushy and healthy , but no bud. could be sum mutant strain? i was wondering if they could still be made into hash


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## Persistance (Jun 7, 2009)

Uncle Ben, when you say cut just above the 2nd node, is that counting from soil upward or from top of plant downward? I've asked a few people and they told me from top downward, but in your picture it look like you counted from soil up and cut just above the 2nd node.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 7, 2009)

Persistance said:


> Uncle Ben, when you say cut just above the 2nd node, is that counting from soil upward or from top of plant downward?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia


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## Persistance (Jun 7, 2009)

Okay thank you for *not* clearing it up heh..


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## born2killspam (Jun 7, 2009)

I think its been cleared up on pages 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, and 64..


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## Persistance (Jun 7, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> I think its been cleared up on pages 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, and 64..


 I have not read anyone clear up the question I am asking in this entire thread. If you have then please quote it in your next reply and proove me wrong. Instead of being a wiseass and wasting bandwidth you could easily just answer the question. So once again, count from soil upward or from the Top downward to make the simple cut...


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## born2killspam (Jun 7, 2009)

Brrrr, Brrrrr, open up wide, the airplane is approaching the hanger..
https://www.rollitup.org/2125950-post205.html
Now chew it up really good, and swallow like a big boy, so we can get your teeth brushed and get you off to bed..


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## Persistance (Jun 7, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Brrrr, Brrrrr, open up wide, the airplane is approaching the hanger..
> https://www.rollitup.org/2125950-post205.html
> Now chew it up really good, and swallow like a big boy, so we can get your teeth brushed and get you off to bed..


Thank you kind sir..


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## born2killspam (Jun 7, 2009)

Sorry the spoon wasn't silver..


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## Persistance (Jun 7, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Sorry the spoon wasn't silver..


Well since you're taling about Silver. Invest in it, it has doubled in value within the last few months. www.monex.com 
Watch youtube: Silver war cry


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## born2killspam (Jun 8, 2009)

Pork-belly futures are all I know..


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 8, 2009)

Persistance said:


> Thank you kind sir..


Might help if you start with page one.


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## johnnysacoseeds (Jun 8, 2009)

I have a plant that that is at the 5th node, the first set of true leaves are basically wasted due to a wandering slug, there is also some damage to the second set of leaves. What is your recommendation for this plant?


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## aceshigh69 (Jun 8, 2009)

I have one topped just like that. It really works. Great work man


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 9, 2009)

johnnysacoseeds said:


> I have a plant that that is at the 5th node, the first set of true leaves are basically wasted due to a wandering slug, there is also some damage to the second set of leaves. What is your recommendation for this plant?


What are you trying to achieve?

It's pretty much a no-brainer, eh aceshigh69?


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## johnnysacoseeds (Jun 9, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> What are you trying to achieve?


I'm trying to achieve the 4 cola result... I'm asking if the plant gets topped, if the remaining damaged leaves and healthy root system are capable of sending out the 4 main leads. I guess I don't know how dependent the plant is on the leaves in this case, or if the root system will power the growth without much help from photosynthesis. Thanks.


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## born2killspam (Jun 9, 2009)

Can you post a pic of the actual amount of damage??


> I guess I don't know how dependent the plant is on the leaves in this case


As dependant as you are on your lungs and heart I'd say, but damaged leaves can still produce.. Thats why I'm always telling ppl to let the plant decide when to write leaves off unless there is a clear benefit in trimming due to a crowded space etc..


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## johnnysacoseeds (Jun 9, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Can you post a pic of the actual amount of damage??


I can try this evening...


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## johnnysacoseeds (Jun 9, 2009)

This may not be slug damage, just guessing because of the trail-like damage displayed...

First pic shows one of first set damage, other leaf is worse off, second shows damage to one of the three blade leafs, the other is similar, third shows healthy leaves above


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## Buddha C (Jun 10, 2009)

How many weeks until flowering would be the optimal time for this?


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## Mysticlown150 (Jun 10, 2009)

not that bad of leaves


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## highwaystar415 (Jun 10, 2009)

hey ben.. im wondering about the 3 plants that i topped. they have been in 12/12 for 6 weeks now. full 2 ft plants.. with no budding!!! can these be used for hash.. they are nice big bushy plants. in soil 1000 hps. from bagseed..


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## born2killspam (Jun 10, 2009)

Are you sure they're pot plants?? (Sorry ).. You need trichromes/resin to make hash though.. That typically comes most with bud leaf.. Some sativas might make it doable with more pure leaf, but whenever I've made hash, the leaf was as crystal packed as the bud really.. 
Are the plants getting too much nitrogen??


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## highwaystar415 (Jun 10, 2009)

yes they are. im tryin to get a pic up here.. i dont know how to post a pic.. ive got 5 great ones , i should just cut em!! they look so good and healthy tho. ill give it a week and check on any trics!! thanx.


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## highwaystar415 (Jun 10, 2009)




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## imanoob (Jun 10, 2009)

the pics from the first post are missing...is it possible to re-up them? i have been hunting high n low for a tutorial with decent pics. This thread has 50pages of replies...so im sure some of you RUIers have been using this technique successfully.

Thanks folks


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 10, 2009)

imanoob said:


> the pics from the first post are missing...is it possible to re-up them? i have been hunting high n low for a tutorial with decent pics. This thread has 50pages of replies...so im sure some of you RUIers have been using this technique successfully.
> 
> Thanks folks


They are still there.


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## johnnysacoseeds (Jun 10, 2009)

johnnysacoseeds said:


> This may not be slug damage, just guessing because of the trail-like damage displayed...


Turns out this damage was caused by leafminers, the recommended course of action was to remove the damaged leaves. I now have no leaves at the 1st node, and 1-1/2 blades on each leaf at the second node. The remaining leaf material appears to be healthy. I would like to still try for 4 colas, but if I top as recommended, will; 
a. dormant buds sprout from location where first set of leaves were removed?, 
b. remaining leaves be capable of powering sufficient growth?

I know I have the option of leaving the plant alone, but I see this as a very productive method, and would like to use it if there is a good chance it will succeed with the plant in this condition.

Thanks!


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## born2killspam (Jun 10, 2009)

The new shoots will emerge, but that will take longer with less foliage to energize the process..


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## AlmightySteve (Jun 10, 2009)

Um, something different happened with my plant. The first pic shows exactly where I topped the plant, with the very beginning of the new growths on either side.






Here's the latest picture from today showing the new sprouts.





This puts things in perspective. Red means since topping, blue means before topping.






Notice at the bottom how the leaves from before topping aren't there. Well they died. My fault, not enough water.


So yeah, I topped the plant once, and now I have 8 new colas growing in. If it makes a difference, I topped while I only had pairs of 3 bladed leaves. Some of the new sets are about to grow 5 bladed leaves though, I can already see it.

I just read more of this thread and know why i got 8 new tops. So my question is, should I remove the top half of the plant?


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## johnnysacoseeds (Jun 10, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> The new shoots will emerge, but that will take longer with less foliage to energize the process..


Gracias, Senior Spam.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 10, 2009)

AlmightySteve said:


> I just read more of this thread and know why i got 8 new tops.


Yay, you get a big fat kudo! Good on ya. Understanding plant responses as opposed to blindly following grower advice is what becoming a master gardener is all about. 



> So my question is, should I remove the top half of the plant?


Uh oh......it's back to square one. 

OK, just leave well enough alone.


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## born2killspam (Jun 10, 2009)

As UB has said, when you top higher its iffy what energy will get put where further down the line.. Your total yield will still depend on the root system, and light use efficiency though..


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 11, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> As UB has said, when you top higher its iffy what energy will get put where further down the line.. Your total yield will still depend on the root system, and light use efficiency though..


Absolutely, your yield depends on many factors, not because someone like me posted a technique that manipulates the plant's hormones. Folks are always looking for some magic pill. There is none, only learning what makes a plant tick. All methods of training have their pros and cons - your call.

I use this technique because it is foolproof if done per page one of this thread, I always know what I"m gonna get, it is easy and practical, it reduces overall plant height, makes better use of light and increases yield compared to a one cola plant.

Make it a great day,
UB


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## Gunnjaa (Jun 11, 2009)

i like the pics whats colas


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## AlmightySteve (Jun 12, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yay, you get a big fat kudo! Good on ya. Understanding plant responses as opposed to blindly following grower advice is what becoming a master gardener is all about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Uncle Ben. I wasn't going to do anything drastic to the plant without a very good reason to. I'm fine with having 8 new tops, except the top 6 severely shade the bottom 2.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 15, 2009)

AlmightySteve said:


> Thanks Uncle Ben. I wasn't going to do anything drastic to the plant without a very good reason to. I'm fine with having 8 new tops, except the top 6 severely shade the bottom 2.


Harvest the uppers then put the plant back under the lights to bulk up the lower bud sites - double harvest.


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## born2killspam (Jun 15, 2009)

I like that method too.. Works well with mixed finishing times too since the canopy of those is lowered to roughly where recent 12/12 are, and since nothing is ultra big at that point, it uses up the empty canopy space..


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## lurkmaster (Jun 16, 2009)

UB, you are the man!

I got my hands on some landrace sativa seeds and I cant wait to see how topping turns out with them, I read through this thread last night and noticed your preference of sativas for this topping method, had only grown indicas so I never really got to fully utilize this method's potential.

Needless to say I don't think I will ever waste my time with commercial eye candy again.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 16, 2009)

lurkmaster said:


> UB, you are the man!
> 
> I got my hands on some landrace sativa seeds and I cant wait to see how topping turns out with them, I read through this thread last night and noticed your preference of sativas for this topping method, had only grown indicas so I never really got to fully utilize this method's potential.
> 
> Needless to say I don't think I will ever waste my time with commercial eye candy again.


I top most sativas, very few indica doms, don't need to as their internodes are so short. All depends on your garden.

Good luck,
UB


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## born2killspam (Jun 16, 2009)

Where are these sativas from??


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## lurkmaster (Jun 16, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Where are these sativas from??


Well, its a pretty long story, but heres a short background

One of them is a F2 cross of a male (Thai x Super Skunk) x Unknown fruity sativa female. (got hundreds of these, this was an accidental cross when we had a thai super skunk male 'prejac' on the fem before it was really flowering)

Others are just a collection of mexican genetics hand picked from the best nugs in my schwag sacks, really heady stuff.

I have what I believe to be ~30 or so Lowland Oaxaca / Zatanecas(sp) Purple seeds (one of the two)

5 Mystery Minty Sativa seeds, It had a really minty smell... I only wish I had kept more of the beans, I only picked out a few good ones and tossed the rest of the seeds because I didn't want them in my brownies..

I was very happy with the smoke from the bud, and all of the other little mini-trials I have done with these genetics, they are extremely hardy and dont seem to mind high temperatures at all, my grow room had been 92 degrees for a solid 3-4 hours and the plants looked as happy as ever. In the past other plants have started curling up and showing signs of moisture stress when it gets that warm. Not these beasts... =]


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## NiceGrow! (Jun 16, 2009)

that thai ss x ? sounds bomb.
i want some!!


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## maogrow (Jun 17, 2009)

is this a good for a stadium grow? sorry if this has been asked before


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 18, 2009)

lurkmaster said:


> Well, its a pretty long story, but heres a short background
> 
> One of them is a F2 cross of a male (Thai x Super Skunk) x Unknown fruity sativa female. (got hundreds of these, this was an accidental cross when we had a thai super skunk male 'prejac' on the fem before it was really flowering)
> 
> Others are just a collection of mexican genetics hand picked from the best nugs in my schwag sacks, really heady stuff....


We have similiar tastes and collections. I've got Mexican beans from some really good Mex that a friend has been selling since the 60's. Mexican is some of the best pot you can smoke. Growing is a different matter, at least 50% are gonna end up hermies.


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## Anjinsan (Jun 18, 2009)

I just wanted to stop by and thank Uncle Ben. Cut above the 2nd true...within 24 hrs all started doing...I've got growth making 4 colas just like you said...the ak48s are getting instantly bushy as a result.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 18, 2009)

Anjinsan said:


> I just wanted to stop by and thank Uncle Ben. Cut above the 2nd true...within 24 hrs all started doing...I've got growth making 4 colas just like you said...the ak48s are getting instantly bushy as a result.


Thanks for stopping by and giving us a testimonial! Glad it worked out for you. http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimonial&ei=fv46SqLVMKW1tweplNXmDA&sa=X&oi=spellmeleon_result&resnum=1&ct=result&usg=AFQjCNGeFzLu_rnDyyXddKl60t8T5vTFog


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## AlmightySteve (Jun 19, 2009)

I have a buddy who's growing pot, and he always seems so knowledgeable. The thing is, he never truly understood most techniques. He knows almost everything about growing, but he doesn't actually understand it.

The point is, and on topic, I know he topped his plants too high. It's pretty clear in this thread that topping should be based on how many nodes your plant has. He bases his topping on how many blades his leaves have.

I topped my plant and resulted in getting 8 new branches, which I just recently chopped so the 4 upper branches remained. The other 2 large branches I'm attempting to use for clones.

Anyways, my buddy decided he would let his plants grow until they had already sprouted the first 7 bladed leaves. So because I can't remember exactly how many nodes there were I'm assuming he's going to get 12-14 new branches.

My question is, now that I'm down to 4 branches which will produce their own main colas, how much more potent would my bud be compared to his? We're using different growing techniques, but supposing we were doing everything the same, how much more potent would mine be?


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## Katatawnic (Jun 20, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Mexican is some of the best pot you can smoke. Growing is a different matter, at least 50% are gonna end up hermies.


Yep, or even 75% if you're really lucky!  I thought mine were males at first, but upon closer inspection they were indeed hermies. Which explains why I couldn't figure out at first if they were males or not. Because I'm interested in getting my first harvest under my belt *and* I need to grow indoors, I'm staying away from the Mexi for now. Plus, I'm in So. CA.... it's damn easy to find Mexi weed around here.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 21, 2009)

AlmightySteve said:


> I have a buddy who's growing pot, and he always seems so knowledgeable. The thing is, he never truly understood most techniques. He knows almost everything about growing, but he doesn't actually understand it.
> 
> The point is, and on topic, I know he topped his plants too high. It's pretty clear in this thread that topping should be based on how many nodes your plant has. He bases his topping on how many blades his leaves have.


You top based on your understanding of how the plant will react. Has nothing to do with blades or the number of nodes. Has to do with the redistribution of auxins that collect in plant terminal tops and what you want your plant's profile to be. If you want a bushy plant, then top high on the plant.



> Anyways, my buddy decided he would let his plants grow until they had already sprouted the first 7 bladed leaves. So because I can't remember exactly how many nodes there were I'm assuming he's going to get 12-14 new branches.


Most likely not as the auxin redistribution and influence will be greatest at the top of the plant and least at the bottom. You can wait and have a plant with 15 nodes, top above the 2nd one and still get 4 main colas. Sooner is better so that plant can get on with its life.



> My question is, now that I'm down to 4 branches which will produce their own main colas, how much more potent would my bud be compared to his?


Not relevant.....all things equal, potency is genetically determined.


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## grow space (Jun 21, 2009)

hey man-nice info. check out my way of topping and cloning https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/205013-how-top-your-plants-then-use-top-clone-pics.html


keep up the good work mate....


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## ijustgrowGREEN (Jun 23, 2009)

UB, i've read through this entire thread, but didnt come across a small issue i'm having... i have a baby Northern Lights going right now. in all, she has 5 sets of nodes right now. i want to top her soon, when she has between 5-6 nodes overall, as you've said... however, her first node or set of fanleaves is directly in line with her cotyledons / seed leaves. should i count this as the first node anyway? i'm trying to say that there is no vertical space between her seed leaves and her first node set... lol. thanks in advance


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## born2killspam (Jun 23, 2009)

First fan leaves are your first true node even if spacing is tight..


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## ijustgrowGREEN (Jun 23, 2009)

thanks born to kill


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## born2killspam (Jun 23, 2009)

ijustgrowGREEN said:


> thanks born to kill


Just for the record I'm not a violent guy.. The name was created when I needed a BS email address that I could use without a care of it being sold onto a thousand lists and spammed to death..


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## well grow (Jun 24, 2009)

Hi UB i have been following your topping thread now for a while and to be honest i haven't seen better than this, so i thourght that i would give it a go im a first time grower and i am growing big buddha cheese i know some people dont like bbc and would rather have the exodus cheese but the cuttings are too hard to get and i have smoked bbc before, im useing Hesi soil nutes my veg period all together took 44 days after 35 days of veg i topped for the 4 main collars and they all responded well to the processso i left them for the remaining 9 daysbefore i put them into flower i used 400watt sodium for veg, so now they are in flowering and im useing a 600watt sodium, and i have got hairs coming out on all of them and all have got the 4 predominant heads and they all look good. i was just wondering how many leaf sets will each stem get untill it reaches the main collar at the top of the stem or dose it differ all the time? thanks for all the help you have given me so far.


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## born2killspam (Jun 24, 2009)

Totally a question dependant on the genetics in the backward direction, and its impossible to say how long the colas will grow, but in the forward direction it should be all bud growth from here out..
Sounds like you did things correctly though..


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## well grow (Jun 24, 2009)

Thanks i have just been taking note of what everyone has been saying what their problems have been and so on but it's helped a lot learning by other people's mistakes and some of my own if you know what i mean. all the seeds that i got where feminized and i got no hermies. but if anyone was going to try the 4 collars technique i can say for certain that bug buddha cheese responds brilliantly.


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## masterganja (Jun 27, 2009)

hey great thread i was wondering what it meant by 2nd "true" node?


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## Skeksis (Jun 27, 2009)

The first set of little round leaves is not a "true" first node. You start counting nodes after that.


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## masterganja (Jun 27, 2009)

grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node

so u let it grow 5-6 nodes then cut them off?


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## well grow (Jun 28, 2009)

masterganja said:


> hey great thread i was wondering what it meant by 2nd "true" node?


Born to kill put a good diagram up on page 22 about this matter it shows you where the nodes are and how to count them it will help. Lesson for today is read the full thread!


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## well grow (Jun 28, 2009)

Hello to everyone, I havent had much time to start a thread but i have put some pic's of my Big Buddha Cheese gorw on my profile if anyone wants to take a look im useing UB's topping technique and all is going well.


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## well grow (Jun 28, 2009)

Anyone that wants to have a look ive started a grow jurnal its called My big buddha cheese grow here is the link https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/207978-my-big-buddha-cheese-grow.html their is some bits missing but ill add them in as i go but have a look and let me know what you think


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## southernsmoke03 (Jun 28, 2009)

what if i got alittle impatient and cut the newly forming leaves right at the stem as they were protruding upward? the 2 branch leaves underneath and the stem all the way down to the first true node have turned purple. whats goin on HEEELLLLPPP


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 29, 2009)

southernsmoke03 said:


> what if i got alittle impatient and cut the newly forming leaves right at the stem as they were protruding upward? the 2 branch leaves underneath and the stem all the way down to the first true node have turned purple. whats goin on HEEELLLLPPP


Wait for the plant's response and go from there.



well grow said:


> Anyone that wants to have a look ive started a grow jurnal its called My big buddha cheese grow here is the link https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/207978-my-big-buddha-cheese-grow.html their is some bits missing but ill add them in as i go but have a look and let me know what you think


Gave you some thoughts in your thread.


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## amsterhamster (Jun 29, 2009)

Alright UB, I come to you again in need of a guiding hand. So, I have a very nice indica and a sativa waiting to be topped.. however.. due to PH problems, my initial leaves have died (probably the first few nodes) but the new growth looks GREAT! now, at these nodes, small 3 speared have started coming out, but do not grow more than about a 1/2" long.. my question is.. if I top these.. #1 how do I know which is the true node, and #2 I don't feel I'll have enough foliage to support the redistribution...

Would you recommend simply topping at any node or just flowering for 1 main cola? :\

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/208306-fim-topping-after-plant-damage.html


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## born2killspam (Jun 29, 2009)

Those new shoots will grow more vigorously, thats what topping is about, they eventually grow out even without topping assuming the plant is happy, and I wouldn't worry about too little foliage to get them going, it will start slowly then speed up nicely as long as its getting good care..


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## Chumlie (Jun 29, 2009)

Uncle ben can you do the topping along with lollypopping?


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## well grow (Jun 29, 2009)

Hey UB here are some pics of where i topped my plants















I think ive topped them right to get the 4 main colas i just made a typo on my thread lol.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 29, 2009)

amsterhamster said:


> Alright UB, I come to you again in need of a guiding hand. So, I have a very nice indica and a sativa waiting to be topped.. however.. due to PH problems, my initial leaves have died (probably the first few nodes) but the new growth looks GREAT! now, at these nodes, small 3 speared have started coming out, but do not grow more than about a 1/2" long..


Not good. Sounds like a cultural problem which needs to be addressed before you start thinking about topping or other training methods. Having abundant foliage is what it's all about. 



Chumlie said:


> Uncle ben can you do the topping along with lollypopping?


What is "lollypopping'? Some kind of new French dessert, or a kewl sex toy? 



well grow said:


> Hey UB here are some pics of where i topped my plants
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I went to your grow journal, looks good. No biggie. The only way you're gonna learn and decide what's best for you is to just "do it", which you have. You are manipulating the main control mechanism of a plant - growth hormones. 

Good luck,
UB


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## Chumlie (Jun 29, 2009)

What is "lollypopping'? Some kind of new French dessert, or a kewl sex toy? 




its where you cut the bottom limbs of so all the fucus goes to the top of the plant.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 30, 2009)

Chumlie said:


> What is "lollypopping'? Some kind of new French dessert, or a kewl sex toy?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bad practice. Never remove leafsets.


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## Chumlie (Jun 30, 2009)

I think they do it two weeks before they switch to flowering, or two weeks into it. Uncle Ben would you mine checking out this post of mine on my soil idea? 
Thanks man
https://www.rollitup.org/organics/208221-start-finish-no-fancy-soils.html


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## amsterhamster (Jun 30, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Not good. Sounds like a cultural problem which needs to be addressed before you start thinking about topping or other training methods. Having abundant foliage is what it's all about.


Well, I had a problem with PH initially, so after transplanting, I tested the soil PH and my waters PH and it is now doing well. No leaves are dying now, all new growth is lush green. But, where the original leaves were (the first few nodes I'd say) are these small leaves. Take a look at the thread I posted previously for pics. It has been doing good for two weeks now, but it is starting to get too tall. I'd like to top now in order to get more main colas and then begin the flowering once it has recovered (after the new offshoots/growth have significant foliage and such.)


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## born2killspam (Jun 30, 2009)

Why not hedge your bets and bend it over LST style as low as possible to see if you can get those low node secondaries to pop into action..


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## livesoul (Jul 1, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Bad practice. Never remove leafsets.


 
So whats it do? Cause i lollipop my plants. It doesn't seem to affect them. They still are ready to harvest in the time frame. I do it because i'm growin SOG style and have 4 plants per sqft.


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## born2killspam (Jul 1, 2009)

More leaves means more growth all around so long as your roots can support it all.. Earlier when I said I'd chop that pH troubled plant and let the secondaries take over, I didn't mention that it would be turning back the clock for the sake of a fresh start with new lush foliage (pretty much revegging).. Once flowering begins though, the clock can't be tinkered with, so you let them keep any foliage you possibly can because they are on a 'deadline'..
Personally I'd only bother nursing a plant to sustain genetics if it came down to it.. I prefered small plants, so I always took far more clones than I needed, and vegged out more than I needed, selected for best roots popping, and culled what I couldn't flower.. Squeaky wheels got no grease in my grow room..


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 1, 2009)

If it's a healthy leafset, leave it be. If you have to ask "why", then I must refer you to Botany 101.


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## phreakygoat (Jul 1, 2009)

ohhhhhhhhhh, burn!


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## hfig (Jul 1, 2009)

I've used this topping technique on a young seedling 2 weeks ago, and the two branches at the second node have been growing really well. The problem is internode spacing is incredibly short. It's a new set of leaves basically on top of the old set each time. The leaves from the two branches are pushing right up against each other and the plant isn't really growing taller. Leaves are fine and healthy (with very minor burn on the edges). Is this a problem that will sort itself out? I could try bending out the branches at the 2nd node but they are very short, and it would probably require removing a small set of leaves to do so.


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## livesoul (Jul 2, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> If it's a healthy leafset, leave it be. If you have to ask "why", then I must refer you to Botany 101.


The reason I do it is because the amount of bud that forms at the bottom of the plant is so minimal that it doesn't benefit me. The concern i have is the extra foilage limits the light penetration and I need that maximized considering I have four plants in a sqft (sog). If the plant doesn't have the lower leaf sets then it directs the nutrients up which produces bigger colas too, correct?


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## born2killspam (Jul 2, 2009)

If your roots aren't up to par..


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## well grow (Jul 2, 2009)

hfig said:


> I've used this topping technique on a young seedling 2 weeks ago, and the two branches at the second node have been growing really well. The problem is internode spacing is incredibly short. It's a new set of leaves basically on top of the old set each time. The leaves from the two branches are pushing right up against each other and the plant isn't really growing taller. Leaves are fine and healthy (with very minor burn on the edges). Is this a problem that will sort itself out? I could try bending out the branches at the 2nd node but they are very short, and it would probably require removing a small set of leaves to do so.


Hfig how old was your seedlings before you toped them?


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## monkz (Jul 2, 2009)

i topped all my pplants exept one, well that one yielded 20g more than the rest,
trust me dont top


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 2, 2009)

hfig said:


> I've used this topping technique on a young seedling 2 weeks ago, and the two branches at the second node have been growing really well. The problem is internode spacing is incredibly short.


Trust me, you're blessed.


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## bob+marley (Jul 2, 2009)

"What is "lollypopping'? Some kind of new French dessert, or a kewl sex toy? "

"lollypopped" cutting the dead, dying, crispy, otherwise useless, yellow leaves off from the bottom half of the plant. 


I hope that_ I_ didnt make it up.

lol


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## livesoul (Jul 3, 2009)

bob+marley said:


> "What is "lollypopping'? Some kind of new French dessert, or a kewl sex toy? "
> 
> "lollypopped" cutting the dead, dying, crispy, otherwise useless, yellow leaves off from the bottom half of the plant.
> 
> ...


Lollipoppin is more, as I understand it, like this, or at least done like this. Rooted clones are placed directly in flower. After a week you chop off the lower third of the plant, whether its dead or healthy. You do this once more in the third week. This is done to promote growth at the top of the plant and create the one fat bud. Keeps the lower branches from branching out to get light, which results in reducing light penetration to the other plants. This is important in SOG growing primarily I believe because plants are packed tight. For example, 4 plants per sqft.


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## livesoul (Jul 3, 2009)

Question. Is the topping technique essentially what someone that is trying to veg for a SCROG setup do to make the plant ideal when its time to transfer? Or is it a different process?


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## Katatawnic (Jul 3, 2009)

livesoul said:


> Question. Is the topping technique essentially what someone that is trying to veg for a SCROG setup do to make the plant ideal when its time to transfer? Or is it a different process?


*From UB's first post in this thread:*



Uncle Ben said:


> The result will be a redistribution of the auxins and other hormones that normally collect in the tissue of the terminal leader's tip. These ho moans will be redistributed to dormant buds that reside in the nodal axis where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk", below the cut. The new foliar output response will be quick (within 24 hrs., see photo below) if you have a healthy growing seedling and will be your future main colas - 4 instead of the usual 1
> 
> [IMAGE]
> 
> Notice how the weight of the heavy colas is naturally pulling them apart, which opens the plant up so that light can penetrate the interior of the canopy. This is the same principle used by fruit orchard managers who create an open vase profile for their trees in order to increase production. This profile also has a side benefit of providing good interior air movement which reduces fungal/rot pressures.


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## Anjinsan (Jul 3, 2009)

Well I thought I'd check back in as I topped according to Uncle Ben and I am still loving the results. Day 2 of flower on ak48s...I absolutely have 4 main shoots on all...and the plants are round, 1' tall bushes. 
Not sure how big this strain gets in flower but am very much looking forward to 4 colas that are all hefty.


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## supdro (Jul 3, 2009)

???? when you top i have heard you should be in veg. can you do this in flower?? also lets say you top in veg and the new growth is just starting can you throw it in flower then???


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## born2killspam (Jul 3, 2009)

I always waited atleast 5 days before flipping, but with NL5 alot happens in 5 days, with other genetics I might wait longer..


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## liljheazy (Jul 3, 2009)

Does topping stun the plants growth in any way? untopped plants may grow taller and better than topped plants?


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## born2killspam (Jul 3, 2009)

If you add up the 4 you'd definately exceed the natural height, but thats irrelevent, its about space and light management, not size overall..


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## hfig (Jul 3, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Trust me, you're blessed.


Great thanks.
Solved the problem by bending the two branches to make the plant form a t shape.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 5, 2009)

Howdy, hope everyone's 4th was safe and fun!



Anjinsan said:


> Well I thought I'd check back in as I topped according to Uncle Ben and I am still loving the results. Day 2 of flower on ak48s...I absolutely have 4 main shoots on all...and the plants are round, 1' tall bushes.
> Not sure how big this strain gets in flower but am very much looking forward to 4 colas that are all hefty.


Like to see a photo or two when she starts bulking up. 

Good luck,
UB


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## Snak (Jul 5, 2009)

Hey Uncle Ben....

I'm more of a lurker than I'd like to be here, mainly cause I don't have much to contribute and a lot to learn. But I need to say THANK YOU for this awesome thread you started. 

I started my first grow attempt (4 plants) in mid April- 3 Northern Lights and one Mazar. I "uncle ben'd" the healthy NL and the Mazar, but one of my plants did not even sprout, and the other sprouted with a missing cotyledon. It took about 2 weeks to finally make any growth at all, and I had to plant another seed to make up for the one that did not sprout.

Long story short, I did not have space for the 4-cola'd Mazar, so I gave it to a friend. Now I have a 4-cola Northern Lights, and 2 regular un-topped unadulterated Northern Lights. 

And man oh man, does the uncle ben'd plant look oustanding. Two top cola's are huge and glorious after only 4 weeks of flowering now, but oddly enough the other two are much shorter. This probably has to do with the fact that I'm using CFLs and the light doesn't distribute totally equally (a condition I'm working to fix). Either way, I can tell that she's the plant that's going to give me the heftiest yield out of all of them.

And I can already start to see my preferred style of growing develop. I don't want to be fucking with these things, I just want to let them grow. LSTing, Supercropping, SCROGging, it all seems like a lot of work for not a lot of benefit, when all you have to do is just one early topping to get 4 huge colas. 


Anyways, just wanted to say thanks for helping out a noob succeed in this stuff. Really, I couldn't have done it without you and the rest of the guys on this site.


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## well grow (Jul 5, 2009)

Hey everyone hows things, Snak put some pics up of your NL it sounds good. I think than some of my bbc have stretched a little and 2 of them might have needed a little more time for the colas to level out but they are all getting good light and air circulation. The benefits of UB's topping technique are astounding, Everyday when i water my plants i see new bud sites on all of them you just wouldn't belive it i think im going to have a good harvest. Thanks UB.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 5, 2009)

Snak said:


> Hey Uncle Ben....
> 
> I'm more of a lurker than I'd like to be here, mainly cause I don't have much to contribute and a lot to learn. But I need to say THANK YOU for this awesome thread you started.
> 
> ...


Again, *apical dominance*. The lower colas _may_, and I emphasize _may_, be smaller in bulk than the ones above them. When I top to 4 main colas, they seem to bulk up pretty much the same. Your mileage may vary.



> And I can already start to see my preferred style of growing develop. I don't want to be fucking with these things, I just want to let them grow. LSTing, Supercropping, SCROGging, it all seems like a lot of work for not a lot of benefit, when all you have to do is just one early topping to get 4 huge colas.


Exactly. Too much crap for too much effort around these parts. Growing pot should be as low maintenance as you can get IMO. My style is - no gimmicks, no charts, just plain botany.



> Anyways, just wanted to say thanks for helping out a noob succeed in this stuff. Really, I couldn't have done it without you and the rest of the guys on this site.


Cool! Glad it's working out for you.

Have fun,
Uncle Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 5, 2009)

well grow said:


> ....The benefits of UB's topping technique are astounding, Everyday when i water my plants i see new bud sites on all of them you just wouldn't belive it i think im going to have a good harvest. Thanks UB.


Just keep them green my friend. One main cola or 4, it all depends on how well you maintain the plant's food factory (leaves) until harvest.


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## Highhunter (Jul 6, 2009)

*Yo Uncle Ben*, Killer pics on page one. I had some success with topping but have a question for you. Why did you top an inch after your 2nd true node? Did growth start from that piece of stem you left above the node, is that how you got 4 main colas? In the past I topped above the node ( 2nd-4th) leaving an inch of stem or so and It just shriveled up. Was that the case with urs or did it sprout new growth


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 6, 2009)

Highhunter said:


> *Yo Uncle Ben*, Killer pics on page one. I had some success with topping but have a question for you. Why did you top an inch after your 2nd true node? Did growth start from that piece of stem you left above the node, is that how you got 4 main colas? In the past I topped above the node ( 2nd-4th) leaving an inch of stem or so and It just shriveled up. Was that the case with urs or did it sprout new growth


The nub will shrivel and is not capable of foliar output.


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## born2killspam (Jul 6, 2009)

Better to be too far away than risk damaging the node.. Thing I liked about that pic was the fact that it clearly depicts that topping IS NOT cutting through the node itself like alot of noobs seem to think.. FIMing isn't even if done properly..


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## Highhunter (Jul 6, 2009)

Yeah thats what I was thinking... so by topping after the 2nd node are you more likely to get 4 main colas or is it pretty rare?


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## born2killspam (Jul 6, 2009)

Pretty much clockwork across all genetics unless you tamper with growth patterns further..


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## Skeksis (Jul 7, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Better to be too far away than risk damaging the node.. Thing I liked about that pic was the fact that it clearly depicts that topping IS NOT cutting through the node itself like alot of noobs seem to think.. FIMing isn't even if done properly..


Can you explain this a bit more? I've FIM'ed a couple of plants, and although the plant bushed out more, 
the next few sets of leaves were deformed or cut at the ends. Is that normal? 

I cut straight through the node taking off about 80%. I'm not clear on how you can FIM without cutting 
through the node. I thought that was the whole idea behind FIM, and what makes it different from just topping.


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## born2killspam (Jul 7, 2009)

The node is actually the bulbous region where the new outputs come from, not the dominant shoot directly above.. Actual nodes are really tightly spaced on new growth, and they stretch from there.. The target is always the apical meristem regardless of technique though, and yes new growth is often deformed for a while.. I'm not exactly sure how natural, or mistake driven that is.. Might as well post this again..


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## Skeksis (Jul 8, 2009)

I see. So I guess I'm actually misusing the word "node" when I'm trying to
describe the tight pack of new nodes on the apical bud. 

So has anyone ever said definitively whether FIM is better than regular 
topping in any way? From what I've seen of Uncle Ben's work, topping for four main
colas is the way to go.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 8, 2009)

Skeksis said:


> Can you explain this a bit more? I've FIM'ed a couple of plants, and although the plant bushed out more,
> the next few sets of leaves were deformed or cut at the ends. Is that normal?
> 
> I cut straight through the node taking off about 80%. I'm not clear on how you can FIM without cutting
> through the node. I thought that was the whole idea behind FIM, and what makes it different from just topping.


Ask 10 different people about how to FIM and you'll get 10 different answers. IMO, it's another one of those lame forum drills (like flushing) that has no merit and just won't die, reason why it's slammed so much as "*F*uck *I* *M*issed". It's just not 100% predictable or reliable. 

Having said that, most of those who played with it at CW and OG agreed that you cut thru the node which resulted in up to 8 outputs. My question in numerous posts was, "OK, are you suggesting that the plant has dormant bud tissue at the node?" No one could ever answer the question.

Topping to get 2 or 4 main colas (your choice) is really a no brainer. It works 100% of the time for me, is quick and causes no stress to the plant or the grower.

Tio


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## ijustgrowGREEN (Jul 8, 2009)

UB, i used the info in this thread to top my Northern Lights plant. plant has fully recovered from topping and is growing four main colas nicely. thanks! my question is, 1 of the new main colas is like 3" above the other 3 main colas(branches). what if anything can i do to slow her down so others can catch up? i'm trying to get an even canopy for my lights... thanks


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 8, 2009)

ijustgrowGREEN said:


> UB, i used the info in this thread to top my Northern Lights plant. plant has fully recovered from topping and is growing four main colas nicely. thanks! my question is, 1 of the new main colas is like 3" above the other 3 main colas(branches). what if anything can i do to slow her down so others can catch up? i'm trying to get an even canopy for my lights... thanks


The colas produced at the highest point will always be slightly taller than the lower ones, that's normal. Don't sweat it, let nature do what it knows best. If one turns out taller than another, so what?

Tio Bendejo


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## Jerry Garcia (Jul 9, 2009)

Hello again UB! I've got a situation and I'd like your input.

I'm currently vegging two blue cheese and one pure power that are about one month from seed. My plan was to top them to get 4 colas, clone the tops, and be happy as a clam. My plants have 9+ nodes and are between 6 and 6.5 inches tall. They look healthy and happy, with lots of branching.

My problem is that topping now above the second true node will cost me 7 tightly-spaced nodes above it (except for the bit I decide to use as a clone). I like the way it is developing, and don't want to muck it up.

What is your opinion on topping higher up the plant...say 3 nodes from the top, leaving 6 below? I know it won't give me 4 "colas" like topping above the second true node will...

My other thought is to do a little training with them instead. Just tie the top down a bit and let the other branches catch up.

Any input you can give would be most appreciated!

--Jerry


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 9, 2009)

Howdy!



Jerry Garcia said:


> Hello again UB! I've got a situation and I'd like your input.
> 
> I'm currently vegging two blue cheese and one pure power that are about one month from seed. My plan was to top them to get 4 colas, clone the tops, and be happy as a clam. My plants have 9+ nodes and are between 6 and 6.5 inches tall. They look healthy and happy, with lots of branching.
> 
> My problem is that topping now above the second true node will cost me 7 tightly-spaced nodes above it (except for the bit I decide to use as a clone). I like the way it is developing, and don't want to muck it up.


Then don't. I would never top such a plant. I top plants that I speculate will be leggie, mainly for height control. 

Regarding rooting your cutting, you could always take the top leaving the bottom 2 node sites to produce 4 main colas, pinch off the petioles at the lower 2 or 3 nodes of the cutting, treat it with rooting gel and sink it into your rooting medium up to the leaf petioles that are left on the cutting. The lower 3 nodes will be your rooting sites, the 4 node sites left with their leafsets intact will produce food for the production of roots. For some strange reason folks seem to think that removing the leaves on a cutting is a good thing. 



> What is your opinion on topping higher up the plant...say 3 nodes from the top, leaving 6 below? I know it won't give me 4 "colas" like topping above the second true node will...


Depends on whether you want 4 main colas or a bunch. Again, it's all about apical dominance regarding the action of the auxins which collect in the upper most terminal leaders.



> My other thought is to do a little training with them instead. Just tie the top down a bit and let the other branches catch up.
> 
> Any input you can give would be most appreciated!
> 
> --Jerry


I don't know what your headspace limitations are, but with such tightly spaced internodes I don't think height is gonna be an issue if you flower around say......12" tall. You need to experiment so you'll have a better feel of plant responses come your next garden.

Good luck,
UB


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## Jerry Garcia (Jul 9, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Then don't. I would never top such a plant. I top plants that I speculate will be leggie, mainly for height control.


 This plant will certainly not have that issue. My vertical space is around 4-5 feet.



Uncle Ben said:


> Regarding rooting your cutting, you could always take the top leaving the bottom 2 node sites to produce 4 main colas, pinch off the petioles at the lower 2 or 3 nodes of the cutting, treat it with rooting gel and sink it into your rooting medium up to the leaf petioles that are left on the cutting. The lower 3 nodes will be your rooting sites, the 4 node sites left with their leafsets intact will produce food for the production of roots. For some strange reason folks seem to think that removing the leaves on a cutting is a good thing.


That makes sense. I'll consider that on future topping forays. I actually just topped a couple thai super skunks (sativa dom) that were getting pretty leggy, and only stuck one node in the rooting gel, when I could have done at least 2 more...never really thought about it until now.



Uncle Ben said:


> Depends on whether you want 4 main colas or a bunch. Again, it's all about apical dominance regarding the action of the auxins which collect in the upper most terminal leaders.


Is there a point of diminishing returns when topping? I would think that multiple tops would be end up smaller than 4 main ones...



Uncle Ben said:


> I don't know what your headspace limitations are, but with such tightly spaced internodes I don't think height is gonna be an issue if you flower around say......12" tall.


I guess I'm not really topping/LSTing to overcome height restrictions...just trying to maximize the yield per plant.



Uncle Ben said:


> You need to experiment so you'll have a better feel of plant responses come your next garden.


Experimentation is the name of my game right now...this is actually my second grow (more like version 1.5) but it is my first with genetics I paid for and not bagseed.

Thanks for all your help! Really. Your willingness to help is an admirable trait.


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## itsgrowinglikeaweed (Jul 9, 2009)

Hey UB great thread! I'm only about half way through it all. Lots of great info in here on a variety of topics. TYVM!
Theres one thing i cant figure out. Looking at this picture from page 1. If this plant was topped above the 2nd node, where did the two smaller branches below the 4 main branches come from?? It looks like it was topped above the 4th node?


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 9, 2009)

Jerry Garcia said:


> Is there a point of diminishing returns when topping? I would think that multiple tops would be end up smaller than 4 main ones...


They do get smaller, reason why I've found the best practical approach to do a maximum of 4.



> Thanks for all your help! Really. Your willingness to help is an admirable trait.


My pleasure,
UB


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## ganjman (Jul 9, 2009)

Seedbanks give a rough guide on when they think the plants are mature. 

Say, 8 weeks for most strains. 

Weather it's a small plant or a super huge monster, it'll take about 8 weeks - then you start looking for maturity in the trichomes and harvest in due course, but monsters dont take longer to bud, and if they take longer to mature, thats just the plant it'self.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 9, 2009)

itsgrowinglikeaweed said:


> Hey UB great thread! I'm only about half way through it all. Lots of great info in here on a variety of topics. TYVM!
> Theres one thing i cant figure out. Looking at this picture from page 1. If this plant was topped above the 2nd node, where did the two smaller branches below the 4 main branches come from?? It looks like it was topped above the 4th node?


Like I said on page one, "The plant after harvest showing the branching scaffold and dominant 4 main cola "trunks", opposing nodes one right above the other. Smaller secondary branches also provided good bud production. This plant yielded over 10 oz of cured bud."

Ever studied the branching habit of a deciduous tree in winter? You'll have main scaffold limbs and then you'll have smaller secondary's. Occasionally a branch will pop off the trunk which should be rubbed off to maintain the form and shape of the tree, but that is neither here nor there. Those secondary's arise from dormant bud tissue that may eventually pop, all depends on hormonal action. Some call them "suckers".

It is quite obvious in the photo that there were indeed 4 main "trunks", aka colas. If you look closely at the lower 2, a collar has formed where it is attached to the trunk. The secondary branches produce less heavy buds or airy buds as opposed to the main colas.

Tio


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## itsgrowinglikeaweed (Jul 9, 2009)

Ahh "suckers" I see. I wasn't questioning your methods or the "obvious" 4 main trunks. Sorry if it came off like that. I thought a "node" was required for a branch to develop. I asked because this plant I have has a "true" node pretty much right where the cotyledons attached making the true # of "true" nodes a bit more vague than usual. My other plants are obvious but this one i cant decide where to cut it for 4 colas? I guess its right where the "trunk" is that fatest in this picture. That would leave 2 nodes below the cut. I thought that maybe that bottom node NEAR the cotyledons didn't count. And that it would only produce "suckers" like the ones I questioned you about. Sorry, you had to refer to page 1 for me.  How embarrassing.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 9, 2009)

itsgrowinglikeaweed said:


> Ahh "suckers" I see. I wasn't questioning your methods or the "obvious" 4 main trunks. Sorry if it came off like that. I thought a "node" was required for a branch to develop. I asked because this plant I have has a "true" node pretty much right where the cotyledons attached making the true # of "true" nodes a bit more vague than usual. My other plants are obvious but this one i cant decide where to cut it for 4 colas? I guess its right where the "trunk" is that fatest in this picture. That would leave 2 nodes below the cut. I thought that maybe that bottom node NEAR the cotyledons didn't count. And that it would only produce "suckers" like the ones I questioned you about. Sorry, you had to refer to page 1 for me.  How embarrassing.


Hey, no apologies needed. The only way you'll become a master gardener is by experimenting. Top here and there and observe the plant's response.

Have fun,
Tio


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## born2killspam (Jul 10, 2009)

ganjman said:


> Seedbanks give a rough guide on when they think the plants are mature.
> 
> Say, 8 weeks for most strains.
> 
> Weather it's a small plant or a super huge monster, it'll take about 8 weeks - then you start looking for maturity in the trichomes and harvest in due course, but monsters dont take longer to bud, and if they take longer to mature, thats just the plant it'self.


Gotta warn you wholeheartedly that I've never actually seen a plant reach proper maturity in the seedbank's quoted flowering period.. The low-ball that to appeal to commercial/impatient growers.. And its sad too because premature weed is depressing and shitty, and pisses me off in general..


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## ganjman (Jul 10, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Gotta warn you wholeheartedly that I've never actually seen a plant reach proper maturity in the seedbank's quoted flowering period.. The low-ball that to appeal to commercial/impatient growers.. And its sad too because premature weed is depressing and shitty, and pisses me off in general..



I know, i've probably only had, say, 3 strains that finish when they say they finish - otherwise i add another week or two - but the seedbank estimate is going to be the BEST it can do, in hydro probably... and the same for the pic they use - they use the best pic out of aload of pics to represent the strain. It's an estimate at best, but when harvesting i go on the colour of trichomes as thats the only way to be sure of maturity of THC, cbn/cbd/cbc etcetc


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## born2killspam (Jul 10, 2009)

Do you stagger harvest to find the actual optimal period?? I've been fooled by trich appearance at 30x magnification before.. It is the best visual approach though no doubt..


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## Njayjay (Jul 12, 2009)

sup im just wondering if this will work in hydro, i saw some bullshit about flushes or whatnot affecting this?

can anyone clarify what the deal is peace


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## born2killspam (Jul 12, 2009)

Where did you here that?? I never have, and in my experience, topping works the same in hydro, aquaponics (using live fish [well, soon to be dead fish] and supplimentary bacteria), and soil..
Basically I'm beating around the bush trying to say "plants are plants regardless of medium"..


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## Snak (Jul 13, 2009)

Hey, I have a question for anyone who wants to take a shot at answering it. I'm looking at you two, Uncle Ben and Born2KillSpam.

I have three plants of the same strain, one was Uncle Ben'd early on in its life, the other two were not topped or lst'd or anything goofy. The two highest colas on the 4-cola plant are almost twice the size of the colas on the un-topped plants. Is there any reason that the top colas on my untopped plants don't even compare to the size and apparant density of the colas on the plant that I had topped with your method? By the way, this is all 5 weeks after flipping to 12/12

Thanks!


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## born2killspam (Jul 13, 2009)

Genetics, root system, general health, light position?? Likely genetics.. Did you plant the cut top for mothering??


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 13, 2009)

Snak said:


> I have three plants of the same strain, one was Uncle Ben'd early on in its life, the other two were not topped or lst'd or anything goofy. The two highest colas on the 4-cola plant are almost twice the size of the colas on the un-topped plants. Is there any reason that the top colas on my untopped plants don't even compare to the size and apparant density of the colas on the plant that I had topped with your method? By the way, this is all 5 weeks after flipping to 12/12
> 
> Thanks!


Looks like Aunt Benita has been waving her magic wand again. Consider yourself lucky. 

Take care of your plant's HO Moans.


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## Chelseys Man (Jul 13, 2009)

i herd topping is bad cuz it put stress on the plant and the yeild is less


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## born2killspam (Jul 13, 2009)

I heard the iraq war was going to be a short term piece of cake, and that they'd find a ton of WMDs..


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## Snak (Jul 13, 2009)

Hahaha... Thx for the responses. 

I did no mothering of any kind. This is my first grow so I figure I'd keep things as simple as possible. I guess I should have mentioned- The plant that I did top had about a 6 day head start on the other plants. It is still about 2 or 3 inches shorter than its younger companions, due to the fact that I chopped her down to near nothing when she was sprouting her 6th node. But either way, I'm really surprised (and almost a bit worried) at how the buds forming on the topped plant are so much larger than on the other two.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 14, 2009)

Snak said:


> I did no mothering of any kind. This is my first grow so I figure I'd keep things as simple as possible.


That right there is the reason for your success. 

Keep it simple and keep them green,
UB


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## born2killspam (Jul 14, 2009)

I agree on the KISS philosophy but growing for harvest, and growing for genetics propagation are apples and oranges.. As long as you make absolutely no comprimises to the harvest plants in favor of the propagator one really shouldn't affect the other unless you are brutally time constrained, and even then, plants in veg can take alot of neglect and/or abuse.. 
A friend of mine is currently dragging a future mother along in a carboard box (maybe 12"x18"x18") with a chip fan cut into the side, and a desk lamp running a 13W cfl.. He only looks at it about 2x per week.. It don't look good, but it all works out because its hardly growing so he doesn't need to chop it down often at all to keep it managable.. The box just blends in with other boxes in his storage area..
If the time to grow comes, its there for revival..


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## 226 2tone (Jul 15, 2009)

Uncle Ben, could you please post your soil mix (recipe) and what/if you feed your mj? Do you use the same soil mix throughout the grow? I have found some of your suggestions regarding plant foods (ex: using Peter's Pro Blossom Booster) but I would love to hear what YOU use, when and how much of it you use, but most importantly the soil mix.
Please forgive my post count, for I am a lowly lurker. Much respect.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 15, 2009)

226 2tone said:


> Uncle Ben, could you please post your soil mix (recipe) and what/if you feed your mj? Do you use the same soil mix throughout the grow? I have found some of your suggestions regarding plant foods (ex: using Peter's Pro Blossom Booster) but I would love to hear what YOU use, when and how much of it you use, but most importantly the soil mix.
> Please forgive my post count, for I am a lowly lurker. Much respect.


I use alot of brown sphagnum peat moss, a large bag of Schultz potting mix, and a bag of cheap potting soil (screened to get rid of the chunky stuff) to make up enough for 30 to 40 gallons of a final mix, which I mix on a cement floor using a shovel and store in large garbage cans. To this base which provides humates, an acidic hit, trace elements, etc. and a little silt to tighten up the mix and retain moisture, I add: 

6 or so cups blood meal, 3 or so cups bonemeal, 4 cups dolomite lime, 1 large bag each of vermiculite and perlite (available at Casa dePOT) and alfalfa meal which contains a hormone called triacontanol (purported to increase vegetable production up to 60%). I buy alfalfa feed pellets from a farm and ranch supply store, put about 4 cups of the pellets in a bucket with a gallon of water and give it a good squirt of Ivory dish soap to cut the surface tension, let it stand for 30 minutes, and then dump the slurry into the mix on the floor. I sometimes add composted horse manure, maybe about 3 or 4 gallons of it. The final, slightly moist soil mix is turned well with a shovel and stored for a couple of weeks in garbage cans to "mellow".


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## Skeksis (Jul 15, 2009)

Have you noticed that the only perlite Home Depot carries is the Miracle Gro brand that has fertilizer added to it?
and the vermiculite they carry is a very fine grade (not coarse enough for my liking).

At least that's all I can find at all of the home improvement centers around me. I cannot find regular perlite for the 
life of me.


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## born2killspam (Jul 15, 2009)

Why Ivory soap??


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## IndicaFatnHeavy (Jul 15, 2009)

may i ask something.. but first may i say.. kudos to you my good sir for this thread... my first grow will be SOG.... so iw as woundering... do u top the plant if u wanna sog? just the 1 big momma cola. if u do ? when and where?

do i just cut off all of the side branches coming off the main cola constantly???


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## tea tree (Jul 15, 2009)

just want to say thanks for all the research Ben. I myself have just sent to flower a plant I topped as your post suggested and a few others i lst'd in the style of lst as much as I can. 

There were a few exenuatig circumstances but the four cola lst job is my favorite. Easiest by far to take care of and to get light in there. My plant has two colas the are on one side that are far more bushy than the other side where they are less veggy, I guess. Less off shoots on the cola. Two are very thick and full.

The others got me lots of little buds. I think they were two lst'd and not enough trimming and training. A way to control them is nice. Mine went all out. Mr miagi on them with twist ties. 

I wonder what your response to the arguement that I read today bya botanist on this site that is best not to top or train or stress in anyway if you have a 1000 watter. The penetration is enough and you just get a lot of littler buds and undo stress and time to recover incurred. It seems a few said most comercial don't as it is not needed. The reason was "better yeild" and not laziness.

I have a 600 for flower and a 400 for veg. I am wondering if I should try a hand at no training. Well, I just topped the plants I will veg for two months then flower in my four pot medical perpetual. Uncle Ben style. 

By the way, nice to see someone amends the peat like I do. blood, bone and kelp. Greensand for iron too, etc. etc. etc. Man the plants love this style of heavily amended soil and water only. I just switched to peat. I also thru in some peace of mind bulb food. Peace of mind products are loaded with extras. Lots not listed in the ads, only on the box. Talk about your monies worth.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 16, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Why Ivory soap??


It's easy on your hands. 



IndicaFatnHeavy said:


> may i ask something.. but first may i say.. kudos to you my good sir for this thread... my first grow will be SOG.... so iw as woundering... do u top the plant if u wanna sog? just the 1 big momma cola. if u do ? when and where?


The purpose of SOG is to have plants that are near identical regarding height. If you think you can pull that off doing 4 main colas, then go for it.



> do i just cut off all of the side branches coming off the main cola constantly???


Not unless you want lower yields.



tea tree said:


> I wonder what your response to the arguement that I read today bya botanist on this site that is best not to top or train or stress in anyway if you have a 1000 watter. The penetration is enough and you just get a lot of littler buds and undo stress and time to recover incurred. It seems a few said most comercial don't as it is not needed. The reason was "better yeild" and not laziness.


There is no stress involved and if you have a normal growing plant, there is no real setback. Once you top, you should see new output within 24 hours. What does a 1,000 watter have to do with anything? Light is light, doesn't matter the source. What counts is the amount of total photons received during a normal day regarding the production of simple/complex carbos and proteins via photosynthesis. That guy is feeding you a line.......



> I have a 600 for flower and a 400 for veg.


Sounds backwards to me. A naturally grown plant receives less light during flowering than veg. That premise goes against the paradigms you find parroted in forums, so, whatever floats your boat. I'd use both for veg and flowering if I were you. In fact, I start off with a 400W MH for the kids to young adults and when I think I need more light, add in a 600W HPS.



> I am wondering if I should try a hand at no training. Well, I just topped the plants I will veg for two months then flower in my four pot medical perpetual. Uncle Ben style.
> 
> By the way, nice to see someone amends the peat like I do. blood, bone and kelp. Greensand for iron too, etc. etc. etc. Man the plants love this style of heavily amended soil and water only. I just switched to peat. I also thru in some peace of mind bulb food. Peace of mind products are loaded with extras. Lots not listed in the ads, only on the box. Talk about your monies worth.


Slow release foods such as organic bring about the best results. Blood meal is pretty fast source of N, and it can burn. If you get an ammonia smell coming off your soil, then you've used too much.

Have fun,
UB


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## born2killspam (Jul 16, 2009)

I grew up with ivory soap for a couple reasons.. My dad said it was the simplest no BS added product out there (fat & lye), and it floated, which was a good thing, because we bathed in the creek during summer rather than carrying in water and wasting propane heating it in the cast iron tub.. (I didn't get plumbing/hydro until I was almost 16)..
He says its changed since then, but I just looked into that, and as far as the bar soap goes, he's wrong.. I checked up on the dishsoap, and I think Ivory is really trying to stick to their purities, because they actually admit that it isn't soap at all, its a detergent..
Anyways, the MSDS listed no harmful chemicals, actually nothing at all.. It simply said "biodegradable anionic surfactants, no phosphate" (for the record the MSDS for the hand detergent was identical).. It seems like a damn good choice for this job..
On a side note though, we used Sunlight dishsoap, and loaded the garden (pot included) with it for pest control via its lemon oil.. Got any opinions on that for this purpose if its not absolutely needed??


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## badboomsxy (Jul 16, 2009)

I topped 1 of my girls above the fifth node and I have 8 colas that pull the limbs over the sides of the pot. Too much. I like the one I did with 4 tops better! They are evenly spaced with the branches being strong and erect. It must also be noted that both plants' stems/ branches are of equal diameter. But the buds are larger on my 8 top, so I guess it is a matter of dealing with the tying/ sidelighting for the 8. Great Read, UB, from start to finish; Much Respect.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 17, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> I grew up with ivory soap for a couple reasons.. My dad said it was the simplest no BS added product out there (fat & lye), and it floated, which was a good thing, because we bathed in the creek during summer rather than carrying in water and wasting propane heating it in the cast iron tub.. (I didn't get plumbing/hydro until I was almost 16)..


Man, and I thought I was old!



> He says its changed since then, but I just looked into that, and as far as the bar soap goes, he's wrong.. I checked up on the dishsoap, and I think Ivory is really trying to stick to their purities, because they actually admit that it isn't soap at all, its a detergent..


Yep, reason I recommend it. It is pure and the po'-man's surfactant. The liquid dish soap is what you want. A quick squirt in a gallon of water will get peat back to being hydroscopic in case it's dried out too much.



> Anyways, the MSDS listed no harmful chemicals, actually nothing at all.. It simply said "biodegradable anionic surfactants, no phosphate" (for the record the MSDS for the hand detergent was identical).. It seems like a damn good choice for this job..


Thanks for the info. I've never bothered with the label stuff, been using for so long.



> On a side note though, we used Sunlight dishsoap, and loaded the garden (pot included) with it for pest control via its lemon oil.. Got any opinions on that for this purpose if its not absolutely needed??


Not really. I have orange oil and have used it for a soil drench for springtail control. You can always use a highly refined mineral or paraffin oil to smother bugs like aphids but my first choice would be malathion especially if in flower. (Screams and holding head with hands makes it appearance LOL) 



badboomsxy said:


> I topped 1 of my girls above the fifth node and I have 8 colas that pull the limbs over the sides of the pot. Too much. I like the one I did with 4 tops better! They are evenly spaced with the branches being strong and erect. It must also be noted that both plants' stems/ branches are of equal diameter. But the buds are larger on my 8 top, so I guess it is a matter of dealing with the tying/ sidelighting for the 8. Great Read, UB, from start to finish; Much Respect.


The 8 colas buds are bigger than the 4 cola buds?

UB


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## born2killspam (Jul 17, 2009)

> Man, and I thought I was old!


Old has nothing to do with it.. This was up to the early 90's (yes '19'90's )My dad just ran off to the bush a few years before I was born and dug in.. Its a hard life no doubt, but a good one too.. We did have alot of amenities running off of 12V's and generators..
We were so far back, (3ish miles from the road) that hydro didn't want anything to do with us.. Then some rich ppl bought an adjacent lot, and paid ~$300k to get hydro into their cabin, and all of a sudden we could do ours for about $20k, doing the work ourselves.. We had to have our poles certified at a ridiculous inspection rate, and had to clear 40' on each side of the line.. 
Thing is, when you do it against the hydro companies own choice, you own the equipment yourself.. It saved a teeeeny portion bill wise, but we were responible for damage costs (damned beavers!).. Also the rich ppl owned the vast majority, and in order to tap off their line we had to contract to maintain their property, and they were hardly ever there so that was a big fucking job..
All in all, living more of a city life I find it really hard not to flip-out when ppl say something is too much work..

Edit: I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that growing up like that might have something to do with me being a gimmicky nute nazi.. Well, that and common sense..


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## cfazzi1 (Jul 17, 2009)

beautiful. I just flowered 48 inch high White Widows. Normally I've always flowered between 24 & 20 inches, this hight is a first for me. I woke them this morning and I could'nt believe the growth over night; almost 4 inches on the average, as 48 is the average size of them all. Anyone have an idea of what I'm in store for concering growth, as I'm indoors?


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## cfazzi1 (Jul 17, 2009)

how can you speak with someone here


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## born2killspam (Jul 17, 2009)

With your keyboard.. Looks like you already got the process nailed..


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## badboomsxy (Jul 17, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> The 8 colas buds are bigger than the 4 cola buds?
> 
> UB


Yes, that's correct. However, my 6 girls are from bagseed and who knows what's what. On a side note, this is my first grow and I rushed into it without the correct budget and without doing enough research; I've had severe nute burn due to using mir-gro fertalizer, I'm using bagged soil with no additives to help with drainage, I've had ants and I saw a female go hermie in 2 hours after a careless transplanting. I've finally got it together a couple months later, though, thanks to everyone here at RIU!



[img=http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/1046/8topvs4top.th.jpg]


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## born2killspam (Jul 17, 2009)

Miracle gro is the only one I'm sketchy with for this stuff in pots.. Never seen a problem with basic ground gardening, or potted low-appetite flowers etc, but I found that things tend to go downhill after a time, while other plants getting non-MG flowering food did much better and required much less flushing.. 
The kind I had did contain every bit of its nitrogen in urea form though, and I do like nitrates, both in my soil, and in my food.. Also, not all urea is necessarily equal either, there is a contaminant form called biuret whose concentration can increase via bad storage and incompatibilities.. Maybe thats the reason, maybe I'm off, but there are alot of options so WTH..


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 18, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Old has nothing to do with it.. This was up to the early 90's (yes '19'90's )My dad just ran off to the bush a few years before I was born and dug in.. Its a hard life no doubt, but a good one too.. We did have alot of amenities running off of 12V's and generators..
> We were so far back, (3ish miles from the road) that hydro didn't want anything to do with us.. Then some rich ppl bought an adjacent lot, and paid ~$300k to get hydro into their cabin,


Gotta ask, what is "hydro"? You mean a water source? I have 2 wells with 1 HP pumps in each and have as much water as I want. If this drought doesn't ease up, none of use are gonna have any water! We are about 21" below normal for the last 2 years. 

I'm not too hip on Miracle Gro although I like their 30-10-10. Peters has better products. Lot's of choices out there.

Ben


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## jaymo (Jul 18, 2009)

this sounds dumb but wot is a node?


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## born2killspam (Jul 18, 2009)

No, electricity via the power company.. We got our drinking water from a spring, and utility water from the creek.. Well the creek water was fine too, but spring water is the best bet for drinking.. Beaver fever is always a risk, and there were times we'd be totally snowed in for days, and even if you chose to take the risk it would take perhaps 12hrs to get a sick person to the truck.. (Assuming the roads would even be drivable)..


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## born2killspam (Jul 18, 2009)

A node is the bulbous region where fan leaves and possibly secondary branches protude from.. Topping promotes secondary branch protrusion/elongation from nodes below the cut..


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## badboomsxy (Jul 19, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Miracle gro is the only one I'm sketchy with for this stuff in pots.. Never seen a problem with basic ground gardening, or potted low-appetite flowers etc, but I found that things tend to go downhill after a time, while other plants getting non-MG flowering food did much better and required much less flushing..
> The kind I had did contain every bit of its nitrogen in urea form though, and I do like nitrates, both in my soil, and in my food.. Also, not all urea is necessarily equal either, there is a contaminant form called biuret whose concentration can increase via bad storage and incompatibilities.. Maybe thats the reason, maybe I'm off, but there are alot of options so WTH..


Yeah man, it seems like I've had to flush after every mir-gro feeding, from the 30-10-10 for veg and the 15-30-15 for flower. No matter how much I dilute it (1/2 tsp to 1 tbsp per gallon), I end up having burnt leaves and a noticeable decline in the plants' health! I've just been giving them water and they've been doing much better. I've decided to use Peter's organic liquid for the next grow. Damn the $4 box of salts from mir-gro!


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## IndicaFatnHeavy (Jul 20, 2009)

im from canada... never heard of canadia a... sounds like a nice place.... eh


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## badboomsxy (Jul 20, 2009)

IndicaFatnHeavy said:


> im from canada... never heard of canadia a... sounds like a nice place.... eh


What is your deal? 279 posts and this is the best you can come up with?! Maybe you should smoke a little and then come join us...


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 20, 2009)

Please, no rude posts or fighting allowed in this thread fellers.

Thanks!

Yeah, low biuret urea is what you're after but that is usually not revealed on the label. I use foods whose salts are so pure they literally dissolve by themselves. One of my favorites is made in Canada, name is "Plantex". Usually has 3 forms of N with no salts that can burn.

UB


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## djcottonsocks (Jul 20, 2009)

if you have some plants ready to top and dont know the sex, can you just clone the tops you cut and throw them in flowering to see what is what and be able to tell which plant to destroy so not to waste time veggin the ones you just topped not knowin the sex prior?


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## Katatawnic (Jul 20, 2009)

djcottonsocks said:


> if you have some plants ready to top and dont know the sex, can you just clone the tops you cut and throw them in flowering to see what is what and be able to tell which plant to destroy so not to waste time veggin the ones you just topped not knowin the sex prior?


Considering you can use the snipped tops to clone, I don't see any reason why not. I've been planning on doing this myself. This way while my plants are finishing up their veg cycle, I'll be able to know what is what.... and have some tiny buds from that little project for cooking, so no "loss" for me.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 20, 2009)

djcottonsocks said:


> if you have some plants ready to top and dont know the sex, can you just clone the tops you cut and throw them in flowering to see what is what and be able to tell which plant to destroy so not to waste time veggin the ones you just topped not knowin the sex prior?


The issue is whether or not you can get a cutting to root better under 12/12 or 18/6. Me, I'll take the latter. Shortcuts don't often pay off in the long run in the plant kingdom.


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## well grow (Jul 20, 2009)

Hi guys when i topped my plants useing this method i used all of my tops for clones and some side branches aswell and the majority of them are flowering now and looking good, Also once that the clones rooted i put them all into my flowering room and now they all have 6 nodes of their own and have just started flowering but these clones im not going to top because i want to compair the yeild from topped and untopped.  out


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## metalf (Jul 21, 2009)

dont let the buds touch when hanging it causes rot and didease.


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## The Reverend Rob Rock (Jul 23, 2009)

Question.....

Does starting the seeds from 12/12 effect topping? I read the whole thread twice and maybe I missed something but I'm not sure that was mentioned.

Practical example would be that I have 2x baby sativas started and are going straight to 12/12. Now if I wait till the 5th or 6th node to appear am I getting into flowering phase and is this too late in the plants cycle to top it?


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## born2killspam (Jul 23, 2009)

Can't have your cake, and eat it too.. Topping won't be affected, but the only thing I let happen in 12/12 is bud growth..


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 24, 2009)

The Reverend Rob Rock said:


> Question.....
> 
> Does starting the seeds from 12/12 effect topping? I read the whole thread twice and maybe I missed something but I'm not sure that was mentioned.
> 
> Practical example would be that I have 2x baby sativas started and are going straight to 12/12. Now if I wait till the 5th or 6th node to appear am I getting into flowering phase and is this too late in the plants cycle to top it?


Not sure why you'd want to do this. Exactly what sativa are you growing? Landrace (pure), sativa hybrid - no indica or sativa/indica hybrid?

The intent of topping is to redirect vegetative growth.

UB


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## The Reverend Rob Rock (Jul 24, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Not sure why you'd want to do this. Exactly what sativa are you growing? Landrace (pure), sativa hybrid - no indica or sativa/indica hybrid?
> 
> The intent of topping is to redirect vegetative growth.
> 
> UB


 
Sorry for not being more specific. The plants are Sativa/Indica hybid but the sativa is the dominant growth characteristic. These plants also are really slow to start flowering. Grown with a 2 week veg period they took 14-19 days after switching to 12/12 before showing the first signs of flowering on a previous grow. The main reason I want to try topping on these is to control height and maximize yield. These plants can be really leggy. 

Will topping help me control height and get yield on a plant like this? And will the fact that I have started this at 12/12 effect whether I can top them or not? I understand what you mean by "topping is to redirect vegetative growth" and since I am going straight to 12/12 I won't have much vegetative growth. But there still will be some, the plants don't flower on day 1 and this strain especially has a slow start to flowering. 

Thanks,
The Rev.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 27, 2009)

The Reverend Rob Rock said:


> Will topping help me control height and get yield on a plant like this?


Yep, the main reason why I decided to play with it years ago, to control height. I've grown mostly sativas indoors.



> And will the fact that I have started this at 12/12 effect whether I can top them or not?


Don't know as that would not be my strategy and like I said in the previous post, "The intent of topping is to redirect *vegetative* growth." Try some of each and see for yourself. Experimentation is what's important. I would top, wait a few days and then go 12/12.

BTW, for the lurkers (visitors) writing me I'm not ignoring you, I technically can not make a reply in the "Visitors" section. When I click on your post it redirects me to _my_ profile for some strange reason. Feel free to send me a PM instead.

Uncle Ben


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## Katatawnic (Jul 27, 2009)

The Reverend Rob Rock said:


> Will topping help me control height and get yield on a plant like this? And will the fact that I have started this at 12/12 effect whether I can top them or not? I understand what you mean by "topping is to redirect vegetative growth" and since I am going straight to 12/12 I won't have much vegetative growth. But there still will be some, the plants don't flower on day 1 and this strain especially has a slow start to flowering.


I've got an RIU buddy who's been going 12/12 from seed, and has been topping. Username is howak47. Hit up his grow journal to see how topping in 12/12 works for him. He'll be happy to discuss it with you.


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## The Reverend Rob Rock (Jul 28, 2009)

Thanks for the input guys. I definately appreciate it. 

I have a little time to really think this through before taking any action so thats what I'm gonna do. Poor planning on my part got me into a plant that will outgrow my space. No need to continue screwing up LOL


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## ToucanSam (Jul 30, 2009)

Hey please tell me if this can be done with an auto flowering strain!


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2009)

ToucanSam said:


> Hey please tell me if this can be done with an auto flowering strain!


Yep...........


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## born2killspam (Jul 30, 2009)

I'd reaearch the particular auto via grow journals for expected dates, there would be a tight window if they start flowering at like 3-4 nodes..


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## jboogie12 (Aug 1, 2009)

my plants are growing alternate nods and are about 30".... my ? is can i still top them and will that effect my yield positive or negatively.... if need be ill post some pics..


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## jboogie12 (Aug 1, 2009)

jboogie12 said:


> my plants are growing alternate nods and are about 30".... my ? is can i still top them and will that effect my yield positive or negatively.... if need be ill post some pics..


 here are some pics


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 3, 2009)

jboogie12 said:


> my plants are growing alternate nods and are about 30".... my ? is can i still top them and will that effect my yield positive or negatively.... if need be ill post some pics..


My method will work best during a vegetative stage when you have opposing nodes. Please see page 1.

UB


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## poutineeh (Aug 4, 2009)

which will stay more stout, 2 main colas, or 4? im thinking about growing again but don't have considerable growing height


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 4, 2009)

poutineeh said:


> which will stay more stout, 2 main colas, or 4? im thinking about growing again but don't have considerable growing height


Go with 4 main colas.

Good luck,
UB


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## f1tzg3r4ald (Aug 4, 2009)

What do you know your a aragatan with a bad hair do.


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## well grow (Aug 4, 2009)

f1tzg3r4ald said:


> What do you know your a aragatan with a bad hair do.


? what do you mean man lol


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## bgpimpn07 (Aug 5, 2009)

from what ive read i can top my plant so it will stop growing up and get bushier... is that true??


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## Katatawnic (Aug 5, 2009)

Topping will make your plants grow a bit bushier, and help to control height. But no, it won't stop or slow growth; vertical nor otherwise. Topping will also spread the top branches of your plant as it grows, especially when it is weighed down with buds later, which allows more light to penetrate to the lower branches and bud sites.


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## Grower101 (Aug 6, 2009)

Hello, so i tried this technique and so far my plant do have 4 Main colas, im on 1 1/2 into flowering now, i never tried this technique, b ut so far so good, i did this with one of my Afghan Kush plant and she looks good so far, but my plant didnt get bushier, it grew the 4 colas but its not that bushier like my other ones that didnt get toped with this technique , so i was kinda concern about yield, i will have to wait and see how much i get from the 2 diff techniques. I Actually did this with disbelief but it it actually works which is nice, well i will post some Pics when the plants start growing some nice buds and show u all, thanks Uncle .


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## uvdevnull (Aug 7, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node. The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count. The result will be a redistribution of the auxins and other hormones that normally collect in the tissue of the terminal leader's tip. These ho moans will be redistributed to dormant buds that reside in the nodal axis where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk", below the cut. The new foliar output response will be quick (within 24 hrs., see photo below) if you have a healthy growing seedling and will be your future main colas - 4 instead of the usual 1


Uncle,

I would like to try this, but do want to confirm the cut point as I'm obviously a little apprehensive about it... 

My plants are about a foot long and have 6-7 nodes, depending how I count. Does the node immediately above the cotyledons count as one? That node is very small, with just small leaves growing out. All the ones above it are much larger branches. If they do count, then I'm cutting just above the first thick node, meaning about 3/4ths of the entire plant is coming off?

Second question, does this increase yield or does the volume that would have otherwise been in concentrated in one large cola simply get distributed between four smaller ones, and effectively resulting in the same yield?

Thanks,
Pete


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 9, 2009)

uvdevnull said:


> Uncle,
> 
> I would like to try this, but do want to confirm the cut point as I'm obviously a little apprehensive about it...
> 
> My plants are about a foot long and have 6-7 nodes, depending how I count. Does the node immediately above the cotyledons count as one?


As I've said countless times in this thread beginning with page one, the node above where the cotyledons are is what I'm using as the first TRUE node. Hey fellers, next one to ask this question again is gonna get a Texas ass whuppin'! 

In the first post on page one, I said, *"To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node. The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count."
*
Read people!


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## uvdevnull (Aug 9, 2009)

Hahahaha, alright, alright... 

How about the second question about yield?


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## born2killspam (Aug 9, 2009)

> Hahahaha, alright, alright...
> 
> How about the second question about yield?


Thats a joke right?? A plant yields based on so many factors..


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## uvdevnull (Aug 9, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Thats a joke right?? A plant yields based on so many factors..


I understand that. Perhaps I should have been more specific: Given all other factors being the same, how does topping with this method vary the output/yield?

If it was a joke, I would have started with something like "an elephant walks into a bar..."


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## drgroove (Aug 9, 2009)

Hi Uncle Ben and all,

I didn't read the 84 pages of the thread so sorry if it had been asked before, how many 4 colas plants would you put in a 1m x 1m growbox ?

Thanks.

Have a nice day.


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## ijustgrowGREEN (Aug 9, 2009)

UB, i'm back again for more advice.....  used your topping method on my Northern Lights plant and it's worked wonders. i've also got a white widow that i just topped for 4 main colas. i figured i'd get creative and try to use the top portion i cut off of her as a clone. she had about 5 nodes when i cut, so i took that top, trimmed all branches and leaves off, except main stem growth, and planted it. what do you think? good idea or will it probably die on me? thanks alot....


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 10, 2009)

drgroove said:


> Hi Uncle Ben and all,
> 
> I didn't read the 84 pages of the thread so sorry if it had been asked before, how many 4 colas plants would you put in a 1m x 1m growbox ?


Punchline - "Depends on how good you are with a shoehorn." 



ijustgrowGREEN said:


> .... she had about 5 nodes when i cut, so i took that top, trimmed all branches and leaves off, except main stem growth, and planted it. what do you think? good idea or will it probably die on me? thanks alot....


I think you might have just fucked up a good thang. Without sufficient leaves, how do you expect the plant to produce enough carbos for good root production? Jest wonderin'. Sink the cutting two nodes deep into the rooting medium after removing those particular leaf petioles.

Glad it worked out fer ya on the NL.

Enjoy.....


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## ijustgrowGREEN (Aug 10, 2009)

i was under the impression that a clone couldnt support any of her fan leaves or branches other than the central stem growth due to the lack of roots... i see your point though. i was misinformed then.... thanks UB


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 11, 2009)

ijustgrowGREEN said:


> i was under the impression that a clone couldnt support any of her fan leaves or branches other than the central stem growth due to the lack of roots... i see your point though. i was misinformed then.... thanks UB


A cutting can support the leaves if the environment is right. DO NOT take forum talk as gospel, do your own experiments and understand what makes a plant tick. If you have high RH, good light, then the more leaves you have retained on the cutting (within reason of course) the more simple/complex carbos those leaves will produce, which means they will provide the nourishment for cell division/elongation....where ever that may happen to be on the plant material. In this case, you're trying to induce root production. You aint gonna get a good flush of roots if you aint got the very unit that provides for their production.

Just an observation also as I see it all the time - don't try to paint gardening with a broad stroke, it is NOT black and white. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. You must take into consideration ALL factors that involve botanical processes. You don't know how many times I get these questions, "help, my leaves are falling off, what is the problem?" without the poster offering any details of his day to day practices. My recourse is to try to pull enough info out of him to make some kind of decent educated guess, and many times it's a guess at that. Why? Because growers sometimes won't disclose info needed for a diagnosis because they won't take responsibility for their fuck-ups or botanical ignorance. How many times have you seen a noob blame their issues on some arbitrary thing like pH or a Mg deficiency? Most of them wouldn't know a Mg deficiency if it bit 'em on their ass. 

End of rant,
UB


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## illtoxic (Aug 11, 2009)

How can I tell where the second True node is? And Should i Cut the branch at an angle or jsut an even 180


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## ijustgrowGREEN (Aug 11, 2009)

i couldn't agree more UB- i also understand your point on cuttings... leaving leaves on makes much more sense, just never thought of it the way you put it. well, we'll see if my cutting survives then... and if not, i know better for next time now. once again UB you've helped me out with great info... Thank You.


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 12, 2009)

ijustgrowGREEN said:


> i couldn't agree more UB- i also understand your point on cuttings... leaving leaves on makes much more sense, just never thought of it the way you put it. well, we'll see if my cutting survives then... and if not, i know better for next time now. once again UB you've helped me out with great info... Thank You.


You're welcome. Get away from the forum hype and learn botany, what makes a plant tick, and you'll do fine.


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## hemphopper (Aug 12, 2009)

Thanks to UB for getting this info out there! Way more here than just 4 juicy colas for sure. I remember the ten dollar oz's from the 60's and grew under lights in the early 70's inspired by Murphy Stevens' book. I love our herb as much as ever and it feels good to be growing my own again. I hope I can keep rational about it and learn to understand what my plants want from me. It's too easy to go overboard and blow the whoe grow. I like this thread very much.
Thanks,
H


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 13, 2009)

Welcome to the thread HH. Also, glad you're having a good time. You must be an old pHart like me who remembers the days of buying lids for $8.


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## hemphopper (Aug 13, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Welcome to the thread HH. Also, glad you're having a good time. You must be an old pHart like me who remembers the days of buying lids for $8.


I remember prices hovering around $8.00 to 10 and $115 Lbs. Inflation sucks but hey Least we're enjoying!


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## UnomasToke (Aug 19, 2009)

Just wanted to say gracias UB and many props for a job well done. Wish I would have read this about 6 weeks ago....I might not had to remodel my closet........10 oz's , Levi jeans, and hitch hiking was safe...........that my friends was different time indeed......


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## MammoN (Aug 25, 2009)

I just learned so much from this thread, thanx Uncle Ben. <3

One question, has anyone determined how much longer a topped plant takes to flower, compared to an untopped plant? I want to top soon, but I am also on sort of a deadline...


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## Katatawnic (Aug 25, 2009)

MammoN said:


> One question, has anyone determined how much longer a topped plant takes to flower, compared to an untopped plant? I want to top soon, but I am also on sort of a deadline...


You want to top a good week or two before flowering (I do it much sooner; personal preference), so that the new growth gets a chance to develop first.
But flowering time remains the same, topped or not.


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2009)

Hey guys, just a flyby. Glad you're enjoying the thread!


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## hemphopper (Aug 26, 2009)

A bird, a plane?? No, it's Uncle Ben!! Thanks for the fly by


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## MammoN (Aug 26, 2009)

Katatawnic said:


> But flowering time remains the same, topped or not.


Excellent, thanx


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## BuddhaBud (Aug 26, 2009)

I have a last minute sprout from some bagseed, and honestly it just looked really healthy young so I decided to grow it and just let it flower young (Im growing outdoors). Right now the 5th true node just formed, so its pretty young but at the perfect time Uncle Ben said to cut at. My other plants just started flowering yesterdayish- thanks, and this is a great thread


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## born2killspam (Aug 26, 2009)

I'd just let it go.. Its almost September..


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> I'd just let it go.. Its almost September..


I had an photo journal on a sativa that yielded 25 oz of bud grown outdoors, autoflowered on the 6th node in April. I topped it above the 2nd node to produce 4 colas. You may have seen the journal at some other forums. IOW, it's OK to top now and yes his plant should be showing a flowering response soon. I'd kick it into high gear with a 30-10-10 now.

UB


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## woolypudding69 (Aug 27, 2009)

Hey, tried to PM you Uncle Ben, I have a triploid (3 branches at each node) How would you suggest I go about topping this beast. Its already at the 5th node and its a bushy little monster! If I top at the 2nd node, does that mean I would get 6 colas instead of 4 and would that be easy for this plant as 4 is for a regular plant?


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## born2killspam (Aug 27, 2009)

> I had an photo journal on a sativa that yielded 25 oz of bud grown outdoors, autoflowered on the 6th node in April. I topped it above the 2nd node to produce 4 colas. You may have seen the journal at some other forums. IOW, it's OK to top now and yes his plant should be showing a flowering response soon. I'd kick it into high gear with a 30-10-10 now.


But you are talking sativa, and you're from a really comfy climate.. Up here, with what we can get away with outside I'm still a bit skeptical..


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## woolypudding69 (Aug 27, 2009)

woolypudding69 said:


> Hey, tried to PM you Uncle Ben, I have a triploid (3 branches at each node) How would you suggest I go about topping this beast. Its already at the 5th node and its a bushy little monster! If I top at the 2nd node, does that mean I would get 6 colas instead of 4 and would that be easy for this plant as 4 is for a regular plant?


Any info, from anyone, is appreciated! Though I imagine there isnt much experience with this type of thing, being that my plant is pretty rare....


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## born2killspam (Aug 27, 2009)

What, you think its uncommon for northerners to plant into Sept?? Watch these forums in late October and you'll get threads asking if there is still time..


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 27, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> What, you think its uncommon for northerners to plant into Sept?? Watch these forums in late October and you'll get threads asking if there is still time..


What's wrong smoking juvenile leaves? 

woolypudding69, just responded and like I said, I'd go for it. Should be interesting.

Tio


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## mr773 (Aug 27, 2009)

*thanks uncle bens i just topped my lemon haze plant so i can get 4 main colas, in the first 24 hours i saw a big change. when you get some time check out my grow https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journal-discussion/229106-five-killer-strains.html*


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## woolypudding69 (Aug 27, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> woolypudding69, just responded and like I said, I'd go for it. Should be interesting.
> 
> Tio


Im thinking Im going to do it. It makes sense to me that if a regular plant puts out four tops above the second node and can sustain those four colas pretty well, then my plant should put out 6 and be able to handle those as if it were a regular plant putting out four. At least it makes sense to me, lol. 
Im looking forward to seeing what happens. Ive never topped a plant, Ive always used LST. The 5th node is just coming out of my plant, and its 16 days old. Should I wait until the 5th node is a little further out and the leaves spread, or do you think Id be good to go??


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## born2killspam (Aug 27, 2009)

What lattitude are you at, and are the characteristics of this more sativaish or indica?? I definately want to know how it turns out..


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## woolypudding69 (Aug 27, 2009)

Around 45th latitude, its a Indica strain I believe. It has nice fat leaves as big as my thumb. I was told its Kush. Im just unsure as to if I should wait for the leaves on the fifth node to spread out or if I could go ahead and top it now. The fifth set is there and I can see all 5 leaves on each branch, they just havent spread out yet.


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## born2killspam (Aug 27, 2009)

Do it now, theres nothing magical about 5 full nodes, the objective is just to let them grow strong roots before topping..


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## woolypudding69 (Aug 27, 2009)

Sounds good! Gonna go do that now actually. Thanks for the input.


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## woolypudding69 (Aug 27, 2009)

Just topped it and am using the cutting as a clone. First time doing both so hope all works out well. Not too worried about the topping, just wonder if my cutting will actually root. Keep your fingers crossed! I want to keep this triploid strain alive as long as possible! Especially if its a female! 33% more yield!


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## born2killspam (Aug 27, 2009)

Don't give it too much light, don't give it too much water, don't give it any nutes.. It should root, main stalk cuttings are tough to fail with..


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## woolypudding69 (Aug 27, 2009)

I have it sitting in water, held up by saran wrap, off to the side of my grow area so that no direct light is hitting it. Should I put it in a little peat pot instead or just wait till it starts to root in the water?


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## born2killspam (Aug 27, 2009)

I like to get them planted.. Its safe for the time being though.. I don't know what success rates are with that method..


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## wonderblunder (Aug 27, 2009)

Very cool, def Gonna give this a try pretty SOON!


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## woolypudding69 (Aug 27, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> I like to get them planted.. Its safe for the time being though.. I don't know what success rates are with that method..


I have some peat pots but the cutting was so short Im not sure if it would be stable in it yet...but Im totally open to all suggestions.


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 28, 2009)

woolypudding69 said:


> I have some peat pots but the cutting was so short Im not sure if it would be stable in it yet...but Im totally open to all suggestions.


Here's a ditty I wrote years ago. 



> Select a cutting on the mother plant with two or three healthy nodes. Pinch off the leaf petioles (leaf stems) on the bottom node as close to the main stem as possible - this will be the main future rooting area - roots will be produced from this axial bud site and along the stem. The remaining one or two nodes above this point, with their healthy leafsets, will provide food via photosynthesis for the ensuing root growth below.
> 
> Within a short period of time, after these wounds have healed over, cut off the clone with a sterile razor blade, knife, etc. about 1/2" or so below the bottom node, doesn't have to be done under water, just cut where it's convenient for you. Immediately dip the bottom node and stem in Rootone-F or a similiar rooting material which contains a fungicide, place into a rockwool cube or hole punched into the soil, deep enough to support the cutting while allowing for ample root growth in the near future. Close the hole with your fingers working the medium towards the stem, water to settle the soil around the submerged stem, and place in strong indirect light, providing plenty of humidity by whatever method you're comfortable with....misting, plastic bag, dome, etc. allowing some air exchange. Fresh air can be provided by taking a lit cigarette and burning a dozen holes in a large clear plastic bag placed over the cutting, or if you use a dome, by lifting the clear dome once in a while. Bottom line is, the cutting requires close to 100% RH. Common sense dictates that the plant has no means of water uptake and will incur moisture loss thru the leaves, so you must reduce excessive moisture loss by providing an environment of high humidity until roots start growing from the bottom node and the stem that had been placed below ground level.
> 
> ...


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## woolypudding69 (Aug 28, 2009)

Good one! 

Well, I didnt do everything in there. I cut above the second node, took my cutting and peeled off the branches from the 3rd node, recut the stem with a 45 degree angle, stuck it in water and placed it where it would be in non direct light. Ive misted it twice. I just went and checked on it and I see 2 spots where rooting has begun. I havent had any wilting or drooping. When I woke them up this morning, the leaves were actually reaching up!! I dont know what the deal is, but this triploid has been insane, growing faster than the other two it broke ground with, growing bushier. The topped plant even seemed to take being topped without a hitch. Growth continues as normal! God I hope this is a female! Be the last plant I ever raise, because it will be cloned forever!!


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## born2killspam (Aug 28, 2009)

Sounds like a positive response obviously.. Seems a little too quick to be showing roots, or even calluses yet though, are you sure about that one??


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## woolypudding69 (Aug 28, 2009)

Im pretty sure they are the starts of roots. It was a smooth cut and now there are two little elongating protrusions coming off of the bottom. Im not surprised really, because this plant has been exceptional from the start. But Ill keep an eye on it and update tomorrow. I could be wrong, wouldnt be the first time, but Im pretty sure, from what I see, that they are the starts of roots. Could always be wishful thinking.


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## born2killspam (Aug 28, 2009)

Well if you can get 558.75g/Watt using cfl who am I to dispute?? Maybe calluses do form quickly, like I said, I've always planted.. I did soak though, and sometimes left them days without noticing that..


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## woolypudding69 (Aug 28, 2009)

Lol, i wish I could get that kind of yield out of a watt! 
This is my first time trying to clone, so I may be seeing things wrong. All I know is that it was a nice smooth cut and now there are two nipple like protrusions coming from the cut. Still no wilting of the leaves tho...
However things turn out, Im just trying to get experience and knowledge. And as much smoke as possible, lol!


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## orchidboy (Aug 29, 2009)

Gentlemen - hats off, and a cyber nod to you both-
after several hours of reading I've finally arrived here - I cannot thank you enough for the enlightening information-
and the patience you've taken to answer most questions-
Being involved in the organic farming industry myself - I cannot agree with you more regarding your thoughts - or at least what you mentioned regarding organic growing-
many of us in the food industry are breaking away and embracing a more "bio-rationale" approach - and yes, if a little malathion will preserve a crop then heck - which makes more sense? all the while still keeping in harmony with my soil-
I think of myself as more of a soil farmer - grow soil and from there - one can grow many things-
anyhow - I've read Tio Bens mix recipes - and I am curious as to what your preferred method is BTKS -
with this crop in particular I am fairly new - but between my worm farm, compost teas and other natural voodoo - I have had pretty satisfying results-
but - knowledge is power and being open to experimenting and such - I am curious to know what you use for soil - or wait, now that I think abut it - perhaps you don't?
either way - again - my sincerest thanks - orchid.


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## born2killspam (Aug 29, 2009)

Since I started doing soil inside I've always used dirt from outside.. Some from grassland, some loamy stuff from low lying deciduous forest typically.. Into that I'd toss a varied recipe of compost, perlite, lime (I ended up adopting a reaction process with lime & H2O2 that converts them to calcium peroxide, which yields the same benefit as lime and very slowly decomposes O2 into the soil), peat, seaweed mulch, bone/bloodmeals.. It depended on availability season-wise since I'd rather improvise than go to the hydro-store.. In around 25 crops I don't think I ever duplicated an exact mix.. From there I tried a plethora of fertilizers both chemical and organic..


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## orchidboy (Aug 29, 2009)

perfect - just what I wanted to hear - I admire the creativity - and am amazed by the knowledge - 
cheers.


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## orchidboy (Aug 29, 2009)

and btw - I' ve gone the UB route and topped a couple medicine plants this morning - I'll document the results...


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## orchidboy (Aug 29, 2009)

you mentioned seaweed - any chance either of you have ever harvested your own?
I live on the ocean and am curious to give it a shot - but time always seems to be my biggest issue-
I suspect one would need to leach prior to milling or making a tea? any thoughts?-
and if my inquiry is off topic for this thread I do apologize- total board noobie here...


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## born2killspam (Aug 29, 2009)

Yea, some mornings I take a 2000mile stroll down to the seashore and do that..
JK, a garden store near me sold that.. I forget the brand details, and I remember there wasn't much more than general kelp benefit labeled.. I also liked seaweed extract for early growth/cloning.. One of the few things worth buying at a hydro store if you can't find it elsewhere IMO since if you only use it early a little goes a LONG way, and clones start off really well with it.. (I never did a side by side, but I was very impressed the first time I used it)..
From what I understand, seaweed meal is quite doable yourself so long as you're careful with desalinization, but extract is a bit tougher.. Most is made from the most easily obtainable kelps and other brown algae like rock-weed (which has a ton of other names)....


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 30, 2009)

orchidboy said:


> Gentlemen - hats off, and a cyber nod to you both-.......


Welcome to the forum. Yep, lot's of nice peeps here, enjoy.

I used to live near a beach that had sargassum washing ashore, tons of it and there were folks that used it as a mulch and composted with it. You have to wash it well and then go from there. 

Regarding organics, I'm not a purist. The green movement, the zealous organics push, is all about the money and control, don't want any part of it. One must reach a balance in their life and that includes gardening. I will not use any kind of pesticides on my veggies unless necessary cause I learned years ago that less is more, plus it takes time and money to apply. Do I think the general use of pesticides is a personal health risk, depends on amounts, frequency, application rates, etc. Read the label.

Having said that, here's my soil recipe drafted as a guide many years ago. Make sure you understand plant requirements before you go off and use this and that. IOW, seaweed's main function provides trace elements. When it comes to enzymes, vitamins, and other crap some vendors claim plants need and their products supply, it's just that, crap. Plants need 16 essential elements, the rest if manufactures.

My plants show no deficiencies when I don't use seaweed, quite the opposite, they are so vigorous that I have to flower 3 weeks from the time the seed pops the surface, and I still get 4' tall plants.



> I use alot of brown sphagnum peat moss, a large bag of Schultz potting mix, and a bag of cheap potting soil (screened to get rid of the chunky stuff) to make up enough for 30 to 40 gallons of a final mix, which I mix on a cement floor using a shovel and store in large garbage cans. To this base which provides humates, an acidic hit, trace elements, etc. and a little silt to tighten up the mix and retain moisture, I add:
> 
> 6 or so cups blood meal, 3 or so cups bonemeal, 4 cups dolomite lime, 1 large bag each of vermiculite and perlite (available at Casa dePOT) and alfalfa meal which contains a hormone called triacontanol (purported to increase vegetable production up to 60%). I buy alfalfa feed pellets from a farm and ranch supply store, put about 4 cups of the pellets in a bucket with a gallon of water and give it a good squirt of Ivory dish soap to cut the surface tension, let it stand for 30 minutes, and then dump the slurry into the mix on the floor. I sometimes add composted horse manure, maybe about 3 or 4 gallons of it. The final, slightly moist soil mix is turned well with a shovel and stored for a couple of weeks in garbage cans to "mellow".



Good luck,
Uncle Ben


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## born2killspam (Aug 30, 2009)

I never had nute def problems, I just noticed that the stalks and roots seemed more vigourous with the extract.. Maybe I had just gained skill the first time I tried it creating a placebo effect, maybe I did have too little K in the soil, but it didn't show (can't imagine why, but the extract was 2-2-7), and maybe those micros/vitamins did help alot..


> Regarding organics, I'm not a purist.


Weren't you banished from a dirt-hugger forum for your alchemy and blasphemy??


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 30, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> .....Weren't you banished from a dirt-hugger forum for your alchemy and blasphemy??


You DO get around.  Yep, that be The Tropical Cabanna aka TCC. They really went berserk when I recommended malathion for mite control and did a Griffin's Spin-Out ditty, hah! 

Speaking of which, I have some photos in this ditty which the orchid man probably hasn't seen before regarding plant vigor and root system. Besides proper nutrition and culture, good root production is all about watering technique. 
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html

Of course every organic wacko at TCC said that I was full of <cough> copper.


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## orchidboy (Aug 30, 2009)

again - I am so very, very grateful - 
Tio, I recall you mentioning "a second harvest" - or, something to that effect-
How would I go about removing my, um, one cola (until next harvest when I'll have 4 per baby - thanks to you) safely and accurately?
and thanks for the link - 
Best,
Orchid


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## orchidboy (Aug 30, 2009)

Would either of you mind assessing my work?
curious as to your input - and since this will be my first batch of medicine for my patients -
I'd like to be able to go over logistics with them?
I've recently noticed small white mildew and hit it with a spray of "Green Cure" and am now noticing some very slight tip burn - which I am attributing to operator error and a slight dose of orchid food (a test on my part)-
so, if possible i'd like to post a couple of images from my macro lens (from my old GD photog days) - and have you enlighten young grasshopper -
Cheers


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## born2killspam (Aug 30, 2009)

Just start up a gournal thread and link to it in your signature..


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## Katatawnic (Aug 30, 2009)

orchidboy said:


> Would either of you mind assessing my work?


You should start a grow journal, or at the least a photo album. Then put the link to your thread/album in your signature. (Album and signature settings are located on your "My Rollitup" page, in the left navigation menu.) This way your work is logged (making record-keeping easy for your own reference as well as for others to comment), and the link is easy for anyone to find.


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## orchidboy (Aug 30, 2009)

beautiful - much appreciated - here it goes...


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## born2killspam (Aug 30, 2009)

I like to think I had watering technique down before that, but who knows.. I spent ALOT of time watering when I did it.. I hate what dumping water into a pot does to the root-ball.. Unless your soil is perfect, say hello to compaction or errosion when you flood them each watering..
I started a side-by-each with typical responible watering vs frequent sip watering, but my Gramps was on his death-bed, so I had to ditch the experiment, set up an automated system and take off for a few weeks..
(I was pretty impressed upon return, I was expecting shrivelled plants since I had to RUSH the setup and hop on a bus.. Spent 40 minutes on it [granted I had a few 555/BC timer templates built already from another project, and some circuits/gear from my hydro days], and it made it to a decent harvest..)
On the note of the seaweed extract though, for what I used in early veg, $10 worth lasted me for about 600 plants, and I still had some left when I packed up.. So for 1.5cents/plant, who cares if the benefit is all in my head..


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## born2killspam (Aug 30, 2009)

I wanna see what orchidboy has to offer, ppl versed in agriculture, and tough to grow plants usually teach me alot of shit.. I don't hang out in many journals, but yours I wanna see..


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## orchidboy (Aug 30, 2009)

I have been denied the ability to upload photos - a security token? anyhow - going to attempt to ul via a hosting photo site and take that route - that should work..


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## orchidboy (Aug 30, 2009)

this might work - and again, this is my first attempt - so, please - critique away - I've much to learn and am a willing student-
https://www.rollitup.org/members/orchidboy-albums-1st-attempt-being-caregiver.html


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## candyflippin (Aug 31, 2009)

so i have my first grow going journal and all. i decided to go with the LST method. I'am wondering will topping of each cola be to much stress on the plant? the plants already bent over and going through stress but cutting each cola off at the same time what do you think suppose? and after regrowth i wanna pintch and snap the branchs where the topping method went into effect


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## Pcmicro13 (Aug 31, 2009)

great thread for beginners and pros rep 4 u


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 31, 2009)

orchidboy said:


> again - I am so very, very grateful -
> Tio, I recall you mentioning "a second harvest" - or, something to that effect-
> How would I go about removing my, um, one cola (until next harvest when I'll have 4 per baby - thanks to you) safely and accurately?
> and thanks for the link -
> ...


Remove the one cola when it is ready, put the the plant back under the lights to bulk up the lower part. Only works if you have leaves left.


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## woolypudding69 (Aug 31, 2009)

Well, the triploid that was topped above the 2nd node is now growing 6 tops. Kinda figured, sweet!


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## Katatawnic (Aug 31, 2009)

candyflippin said:


> so i have my first grow going journal and all. i decided to go with the LST method. I'am wondering will topping of each cola be to much stress on the plant? the plants already bent over and going through stress but cutting each cola off at the same time what do you think suppose? and after regrowth i wanna pintch and snap the branchs where the topping method went into effect


There are growers that do this, but I really think don't it's necessary. As a matter of fact, it may cause a lot of crowding problems, resulting in too little air circulation and simply so many bud sites that you'd end up with loads and loads of "popcorn" buds, but very few large/main (hence higher quality) colas.

The attached photos were taken after three and five weeks of LST with no topping (last day of tying down, then two weeks later), and you can see that they're extremely bushy with many bud sites. The second photo is day two of 12/12, so they're still going to grow a *lot* more the next couple/few weeks. I had to prune the bottom of them this afternoon (not as aggressive as "lollipopping" but still quite a decent amount of trimming), because they got *so* bushy that there wasn't enough air circulation in there, which is an open invitation to bugs and molds and fungi and other nasties. It breaks my heart to prune my babies, but it absolutely *had* to be done! If you top each cola with LST, you'll likely end up with way too much bush and end up having to lollipop the hell out of the bottom branches. (The only exceptions I can see to this is either if you're growing outdoors, or else you've got loads of room and lighting indoors.)

I've now got two in veg that are 4 weeks old. I did the "four cola" method in this thread on them earlier this week, and started tying the four new "trunks" on the larger of the two just last night. (No photo of these yet, but should have some within a couple of days from now for sure.) I'm guessing I can get pretty much the same effect from these two as I did with the ones in the photo, but in two or three weeks instead of five.

I'd personally recommend that if you combine LST with topping, you top first and then LST them. Or at the least, LST first and then top *only* the stalks that grow so much taller that it's difficult to keep an even canopy.... which *does* happen when you run out of room and can't tie branches anymore.


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## LiquidLumen (Aug 31, 2009)

Yo, I got a question for anyone experienced with this topping technique and + rep for good answers. Does it matter if you're plant is already in flower when you top for the 4 main colas? This is for a SOG flowering from Seed type set up


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## born2killspam (Aug 31, 2009)

Offering rep isn't a a way to grab info without perusing the pages already written..


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## Katatawnic (Aug 31, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Offering rep isn't a a way to grab info without perusing the pages already written..


I'd rep you for *that*, but RIU won't let me since I already kissed your ass a few days or so ago.


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## born2killspam (Aug 31, 2009)

If I cared about my reputation, I'd stop smoking weed, get myself a haircut, and get a real job..


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## Katatawnic (Aug 31, 2009)

That's funny right there! 

Yeah, rep is a handy way of saying "thanks" to other RIU members, but the big deal so many make out of it cracks me up. Especially how much it too often does *not* mean; if it was so valuable here, then those that give so much sound help & advice would be the ones with the high rep points.  Hence my referring to it as ass-kissing.


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## born2killspam (Aug 31, 2009)

I get more rep for jokes than I do for info.. I think pics/journals earn alot of rep regardless of value..


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## captain chronizzle (Aug 31, 2009)

LiquidLumen said:


> Yo, I got a question for anyone experienced with this topping technique and + rep for good answers. Does it matter if you're plant is already in flower when you top for the 4 main colas? This is for a SOG flowering from Seed type set up


i'll answer. when you top, you rely on the plants ability to vegitate. since you would be in flower, it would be counterproductive, or too late. sorry


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## Katatawnic (Aug 31, 2009)

Yep, I've gotten "thank you's" for help offered, and rep for being silly. Fortunately I'm more concerned with growing healthy plants than a "great" reputation.  You and UB constantly give tons of great no-nonsense advice (the best kind), yet my rep points are higher than both of yours. Yet so many people take rep points into serious account when considering help that's been offered to them.... I can't count how many have told others to pay close attention to rep before taking advice from someone.


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## LiquidLumen (Aug 31, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> I get more rep for jokes than I do for info.. I think pics/journals earn alot of rep regardless of value..


I find it amusing how much time you're willing to talk about how you don't care about rep and try to make yourself seem funny through an online forum, rather than actually take 30 seconds to type a simple answer....good job not looking like a dipshit


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## born2killspam (Aug 31, 2009)

30sseconds*everylazynoob = fuck you


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## Katatawnic (Sep 1, 2009)

LiquidLumen said:


> I find it amusing how much time you're willing to talk about how you don't care about rep and try to make yourself seem funny through an online forum, rather than actually take 30 seconds to type a simple answer....good job not looking like a dipshit


I find it amusing how much effort people are not willing to put into learning about growing a plant, bribing others with a lousy brownie point to do their research for them.

Had you simply asked your initial question, I and many others would have simply answered it. A carrot dangled in front of the nose is insulting. Some people don't like being patronized. Get over it. You got your answer without needing to sort through information already provided (over and over and over) like others do. But instead of a "thank you" to the person who spoon-fed you the info, you had to point out what a "dipshit" someone was for having some self-respect. I've never given negative rep, but I was very tempted after reading this.

Good day.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 1, 2009)

LiquidLumen, welcome to the thread, but, that question has been answered quite a few times, you may start with the FIRST POST. You can top during flowering, done it numerous times to keep the height of unruly sativas down, but your output will not result in 4 main colas. Homework - learn plant parts, structure, and function.

"rep", Karma, mojo, etc. is quite meaningless if you're really into gardening. Finding out who are the master gardeners are takes work and a little time which most are not willing to do. 

Regards,
Tio


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## orchidboy (Sep 1, 2009)

so , with this species - will the nodes of a clone eventually even out? -
I am running some test and have begun to notice that they are uneven - 
any thoughts?
cheers-
and tio , what type of olive trees?
I've just placed my order for 50 lbs - I cure my own each season-
but live in a climate unfriendly to olive trees....


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 1, 2009)

orchidboy said:


> so , with this species - will the nodes of a clone eventually even out? -
> I am running some test and have begun to notice that they are uneven -
> any thoughts?


Expression of alternating nodes is called "alternate phytolaxy" (sp), a flowering response. Why do you care if it evens out with opposing nodes? If you have opposing nodes, you have a vegetative state.



> cheers-
> and tio , what type of olive trees?
> I've just placed my order for 50 lbs - I cure my own each season-
> but live in a climate unfriendly to olive trees....


I have a couple that produce great oil and are used for canning. 

Happy canning!


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## LiquidLumen (Sep 1, 2009)

Also, there is no information in the first 3 pages of this thread that makes it clear that you will not get 4 nodes if you top during flowering...


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## born2killspam (Sep 1, 2009)

Well topping is topping.. As far as UB's technique goes, its just topping with a primary focus on the 4 mains, after a substantial root formation has had a chance to grow..


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## Richie LxP (Sep 1, 2009)

Uncle bens topping technique is the mutts nuts.


Giggidy giggidy....Oh yea


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## captain chronizzle (Sep 2, 2009)

liquid- you carried on, the very way you claimed to infuriate you. you said all the noob talk, trash talk, etc. clutters these threads. you wanted to save some time and formality. your rants added how many pages? you even threatened physical harm. not nice.

katawanic- you engaged, or gave audience. the term is instigated.

and whoever else posted bout breakin teeth, gosh people, cool out. give the thread stater some respect, and cyberspace a break on the clutter!

just smoke up, and cool out.

p.s. i don't respond to threats or regard any comments as fact.

ub- nice method


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## woolypudding69 (Sep 2, 2009)

captain chronizzle said:


> liquid- you carried on, the very way you claimed to infuriate you. you said all the noob talk, trash talk, etc. clutters these threads. you wanted to save some time and formality. your rants added how many pages? you even threatened physical harm. not nice.
> 
> katawanic- you engaged, or gave audience. the term is instigated.
> 
> ...


Very true and very well put. I need to go smoke. This is exactly why I get high. It saves peoples lives.


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## Katatawnic (Sep 2, 2009)

captain chronizzle said:


> katawanic- you engaged, or gave audience. the term is instigated.


You're absolutely correct. Something I rarely do, and I'm not proud of it. I'm one to remind others to ignore and not let things like this get to them, and I didn't take my own advice.  I was tempted to address further, but there's just no sense in it. For what it's worth, I apologize for taking part in disrupting this thread.


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## LiquidLumen (Sep 2, 2009)

I also am sorry I had to clutter this thread with garbage, just can't help myself sometimes when provoked...anyways we're all here to learn so I'm over it and ready to continue using this forum the way it was intended to be used


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## lilrosie (Sep 2, 2009)

Hey Uncle Ben,

I'm going to top one of my babies at the 2nd node to get 4 main colas. My question is - the part that I"m taking off (about 4-5 nodes worth of growth) what can I do with it besides clone it? 

Can I dry it out and smoke it? Make it into a light cannabutter? Is there any THC in it? 

I'm nervous about doing this. My babies have been SO healthy and growing nicely and I'd hate to do anything to really hurt one. My grow journal is on here if you want pictures. It's Lilrosie's First Grow. I'm doing bubbleponics like Roseman and a 100% CFl grow like SayWord.  I should be going into flowering next week... 

Thanks in advance for your time!


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## odinfolk (Sep 3, 2009)

dude, fucking awesome. my clones will be just the right size here in a few weeks to cut them above the second main node. thank you, thank you and thank you


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## odinfolk (Sep 3, 2009)

Isn't this forum for the purpose of learning how to grow four colas from one little plant?


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 4, 2009)

OK fellers, are you through? Don't want anymore of this or I'll go tell Moddy.  



lilrosie said:


> Hey Uncle Ben,
> 
> I'm going to top one of my babies at the 2nd node to get 4 main colas. My question is - the part that I"m taking off (about 4-5 nodes worth of growth) what can I do with it besides clone it?
> 
> Can I dry it out and smoke it? Make it into a light cannabutter? Is there any THC in it?


No THC, not this early in the game.



> I'm nervous about doing this. My babies have been SO healthy and growing nicely and I'd hate to do anything to really hurt one.


I can't help ya deal with your feelings. I can help you address the facts, which I have done. The plant incurs no stress.

Facts before feelings,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 4, 2009)

odinfolk said:


> dude, fucking awesome. my clones will be just the right size here in a few weeks to cut them above the second main node. thank you, thank you and thank you


You're welcome, just remember those nodes must be opposing, not in a state of alternate phytolaxxy.

Good luck,
UB


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## woolypudding69 (Sep 4, 2009)

I wanted to apologize for my reaction to Liquid. Should have just stayed out of it. I find it hard though to stand idle when people are acting ignorant, and then I went and acted ignorant myself. Sorry to all in the forum. No need to call the moddy Uncle Ben, I already got an infraction for my "threatening comment". 

As to my triple chromosome plant that I topped using your method, it is now growing 6 tops! As I figured it would. I look forward to seeing whether or not it will sustain these tops like a regular plant would sustain 4. Ill keep updating.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 5, 2009)

woolypudding69 said:


> As to my triple chromosome plant that I topped using your method, it is now growing 6 tops! As I figured it would. I look forward to seeing *whether or not it will sustain these tops* like a regular plant would sustain 4. Ill keep updating.


It's the 6 tops that will sustain the plant.

Think about it.


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## bloatedcraig (Sep 5, 2009)

Just read your thread as i have 5 on there way and will deffinately be giving this a go man. You r deffinately my uncle.


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## tea tree (Sep 5, 2009)

just want to say that I got a plant that I lst'd to the max and a plant that I topped uncle ben style and the uncle ben stle of four tops rules. It is so much cleaner and the buds are so much bigger. I am pleased. Also I think the trichs are more rich on the four tops as opposed to the multi. It is hard to say as they are both ok in that department. But it raises questions as to the genetic potential of plants to produce trichs. Is there a limit? As I said I cannot yet tell by sight. But never the less the four tops looks like it is kicking the shit out of the other in terms of bud production.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 6, 2009)

bloatedcraig said:


> Just read your thread as i have 5 on there way and will deffinately be giving this a go man. You r deffinately my uncle.


Funny avatar lol. Welcome to the thread.



tea tree said:


> But it raises questions as to the genetic potential of plants to produce trichs. Is there a limit? As I said I cannot yet tell by sight. But never the less the four tops looks like it is kicking the shit out of the other in terms of bud production.


For starts, trich density is not what counts, it's what's inside. Trich density is used by marketers who show bud photos with lots of shugar to sell seeds. Yeah, you have to have a certain amount of trichomes to get the cannabanoids, but if you've ever grown ass kicking pure sativa, you've noticed the trichome field is usually not near as dense as an indica and the resin heads are smaller. BTW, focus on growing a healthy plant and maintaining your leaves in a green and healthy condition, that's all that matters. The rest will follow. 

The limit is both genetic and botanical. The plant gets to a point to where new bud production (and trikes) almost comes to a halt, time to harvest.

Happy to hear you're enjoying the results. Pretty damn simple, eh?

UB


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## born2killspam (Sep 6, 2009)

UB whats your take on dark periods prior to harvest etc anyways??


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 8, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> UB whats your take on dark periods prior to harvest etc anyways??


According to lab studies on THC and publised by Mel Frank, it varies slightly throughout the plant's 24 hour period. THC is higher just before lights on, so I make it a practice to pull a plant or so out, put it in a dark room the day before, get the table ready for the dirty deed in the morn and do it then. 

cya ~


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## Richie LxP (Sep 8, 2009)

Thank you uncle ben


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## DJeriee (Sep 8, 2009)

I also top all my plants.... when topping indoors its good to add few more vegging days or weeks..... also if your gonna top i also love to supercrop by bending or snapping main colas main stem..... ill put it this way before i did supercropping id be lucky to get an ounce off a indoor plant..... after i was getting 4-6 ounces easily and then i even got a half a pound on a lavender indoors


happy sprouting


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## bloatedcraig (Sep 9, 2009)

DJeriee said:


> I also top all my plants.... when topping indoors its good to add few more vegging days or weeks..... also if your gonna top i also love to supercrop by bending or snapping main colas main stem..... ill put it this way before i did supercropping id be lucky to get an ounce off a indoor plant..... after i was getting 4-6 ounces easily and then i even got a half a pound on a lavender indoors
> 
> 
> happy sprouting


I have snapped the stem and have got 6 colas On one of my plants. This is my first grow so didn't really know what i was doing till i going you guy's. Thought i had done something wrong.

What is supercropping then is that topping and snapping?

sorry about the poor pic will try and get some more.

What is the disadvantages to bending/snapping

Sorry for all the question but if you dont ask no one will tell ya.


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## born2killspam (Sep 9, 2009)

Yea, supercropping is what happens when a tree falls ontop of your outdoor crop..


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 9, 2009)

Richie LxP said:


> Thank you uncle ben


Nice job! 

Toppy harvest,
Uncle Ben


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## Richie LxP (Sep 10, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice job!
> 
> Toppy harvest,
> Uncle Ben



I had to tie the big top down there yesterday, she was getting to big


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## Brabb (Sep 13, 2009)

Thanks again Uncle Ben, tried it on some outdoor plants and their lovin it!!


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 14, 2009)

I'd say they are Brabb! Looking good guy. 

Good luck fellers. All you're doing it redistributing the plant's hormones. Simple.


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## "SICC" (Sep 14, 2009)

what happend to all the pics in the first post?


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## frOstd (Sep 14, 2009)

whats the difference between cutting it in the beggining, when its just creating the third leaf set and waiting untill you have 6-7 nodes and then cutting at the same spot?


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## Katatawnic (Sep 14, 2009)

frOstd said:


> whats the difference between cutting it in the beggining, when its just creating the third leaf set and waiting untill you have 6-7 nodes and then cutting at the same spot?


More nodes means more root production, which means little to no recovery time for the topped plant. I most often use the removed top for cloning, so having more nodes is a bonus for that as well.


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## hemphopper (Sep 15, 2009)

I've been following this thread with much interest. Just finishing a grow and have learned a lot and am looking forward to next one. I'd appreciate some advice regarding sexing, going back to veg and then topping per Tio B's 4 cola technique. Space is constrained for me: I built a cabinet thats 2 X 4 X 6 feet planned around 2 4ft T5 4 tube fixtures. I have some seeds that are not feminized so I'd like to germ, veg up to 4 nodes, then do 12/12 long enough to sex and then, gasp, get rid of the males and go bak to 12/12 and hopefully have 6 nodes such that I can top just above real node 2. Part 2 of my advice request would be how many 4 cola plants in 3 gallon grow bags is realistic for my 2' X 4' floor plan? I way over did it in the grow I'm just finishing. I attempted 10 un topped females. Jungle is all I can say. Barney's Farm Blue Cheese, Indica and nice but I was greedy or crazy. Nice buds though. Anyway, thanks for all the good knowledge generously shared here.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 15, 2009)

SICC";3080720]what happend to all the pics in the first post?[/QUOTE]
Thanks for pointing that out. I wrote a mod about it. Those photos tell the story.
[quote="hemphopper said:


> I've been following this thread with much interest. Just finishing a grow and have learned a lot and am looking forward to next one. I'd appreciate some advice regarding sexing, going back to veg and then topping per Tio B's 4 cola technique. Space is constrained for me: I built a cabinet thats 2 X 4 X 6 feet planned around 2 4ft T5 4 tube fixtures. I have some seeds that are not feminized so I'd like to germ, veg up to 4 nodes, then do 12/12 long enough to sex and then, gasp, get rid of the males and go bak to 12/12 and hopefully have 6 nodes such that I can top just above real node 2. Part 2 of my advice request would be how many 4 cola plants in 3 gallon grow bags is realistic for my 2' X 4' floor plan? I way over did it in the grow I'm just finishing. I attempted 10 un topped females. Jungle is all I can say. Barney's Farm Blue Cheese, Indica and nice but I was greedy or crazy. Nice buds though. Anyway, thanks for all the good knowledge generously shared here.



Some thoughts:

1. Cabinets suck. I know, it's what everyone does. A garden is dynamic - the footprint is always in a state of change. I use mobile side reflecting panels. I understand "jungles" perfectly well, check *week four* out: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html

2. Sex by watching for pre-flowers, get rid of the males, go back to a 20/4, up the N and when you're sure those nodes are opposing, top to get your 4 main colas. Watch for hermies. Seeds are a PITA but I never felt there was a difference regarding potency of sensi and seeded.

Good luck,
UB


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## hemphopper (Sep 15, 2009)

Thanks and your root pruning thread is really eye opening. I agree that cabs suck but until I can move to a better environment I have to live with it. I will probably just do 2 plants in that cab next time and go for the healthiest vegetative state possible before budding them all out. Then go for the the beautiful 4 colas supported by good greenery.


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## subzero420 (Sep 15, 2009)

Hey i have a question is it too late to top my plant and make 2 cola's for more bud. Im on day 8 of flowering and its 13 inches tall with a diameter of 26 inches. Another question is it possible for a plant to grow 2 cola's or more without topping it?


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## Jack in the Bud (Sep 16, 2009)

Hello the group,

I've been bumbling along for several years now with an old copy of Rosenthal's Closet Cultivator and was getting pretty impressed with myself until I stumbled upon these forums (I've been lurking and reading about a week now). Fuck, oh dear man, some of you guys got this growing thing tweaked to a level I didn't even know existed. I've got so many questions for some of you I hardly know where to start.

I've been growing in potting soil from seed but the highest yield I've been able to achieve is around 11 grams/plant (cured) in about a 110 day cycle. While I'm by no means a world class conesiuer of herb I do think the quality of what I've managed to produce is at least as good as most other things I've been coming across in my area. About a year ago I got a hold of some Allegria seeds while passing thru the Netherlands. I'm about 25 days out from harvesting my third grow of that strain. On the first grow I pollinated the lower buds so I'd have some seed stock for future grows.

I guess the first thing I would really like to know from Uncle Ben is whether that plant in the pictures he started this thread with is from seed or a clone?


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 16, 2009)

Jack in the Bud said:


> I guess the first thing I would really like to know from Uncle Ben is whether that plant in the pictures he started this thread with is from seed or a clone?


Seed. 

Welcome to the thread!


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## hemphopper (Sep 17, 2009)

This is a most educational thread, as has been said before. I'd like to ask UB if you could put up a link to making your own potting mix. Maybe you've done that already but I haven't found it yet.

Thanks,
H


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## Jack in the Bud (Sep 17, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Seed.
> 
> Welcome to the thread!


Uncle Ben,

I stayed up late last night trying to read everything you've posted until my eye's burned. While I didn't get all that done I have read enough to be way impressed with your no bs practical approach to things. With rare exception if I haven't been able to find it at WallMart or Home Depot it's not part of my program.

(O.K. enough ass kiss'n.) I'll be ready to start the next crop in about 30 days and would sure like to get plant structures like the ones pictured in the post you started this thread with. I'll be following the pruning technique you started this thread with but my problem has been that my plants etoliate far to quickly. 

Anything you'd be willing to tell me about your soil mix, lighting cycle and fertilizing program would be greatly appreciated.

I believe I've got my grow space set up to the point where I can duplicate your results if you'll just coach me a bit.

My space is 5 x 7. I got the walls covered with foil and have a 400W Sylvania Metal Arc a 100W GE lucalox and 4 150W (equivalent) cfl's for lighting. Got CO2 set up on a timer to run for 15 minutes every 2 hrs. I've got the lighting, fans and venting all set up on a series of timers and thermostats that I've managed to cobble together from parts found at Home Depot. In fact if I make sure every things watered I can usually go a way for 4 to 5 days with no problem.

I've been using plastic pots exactly like the ones in your pictures. I have how ever drilled 20 to 30 extra 1/4" holes in the bottoms and have them set up on 1/2" tall pvc pipe rings I've cut to insure good drainage and air circulation under them. They all sit on a low plastic sheet covered table I've built with just enough slope in it to drain to a gutter and catch basin.

I've pretty much just been using straight Miracle Grow potting soil for a medium. Allthough this last run I added some Roots Organic mycorrhizael root growth enhancer. When I've harvested and depotted in the past I haven't had the kinds of intense root structures like I've seen in a lot of pictures. 

For ferts I've just been using regular MG during the vegatative stage and then switching to their Bloom Booster formula during flowering. I've been supplementing that with some Super Thrive and molasses. All though from one of your past posts I've read I seem to recall that you might think the whole molasses thing might be voodoo. While I can't say for sure it's helped I'm pretty sure it hasn't hurt anything.

I've got all my plants numbered and keep a chart of who gets what when. It's been a while since I've over ferted and if any thing lately I've usually gotten a couple of plants each run that most likely have a nutrient deficency. But nothing too major.

After learning a few hard lessons a few years back about bringing other plants indoors that have been out side and having them act as a vector for spider mite and aphid infections I haven't had any bug, mold or fungus problems (that I'm aware of) in quite some time. Well that is with the exception of fungus nats (man I certainly know how to raise a crop of those critters). But since they don't seem to be causing any major plant damage I've foregone the pesticides and just tried to sticky trap the hell out of them to keep their numbers beat back. I think they're way more annoying to me than the plants.

With the aid of a little Aluminum Sulfate now and then I manage to keep my soil ph in the 6 to 7 range. Got one of those combo light, moisture, ph meters I payed around $20 for online a couple years a go. [While in Home Depot yesterday I saw the exact same thing for $7.58.]

Well it looks like that brownie I had with my morning coffee has caused me to prattle on at a greater length than I intended to. So I guess I'll just shut up now and hope you'll consider me worthy of some coaching.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 17, 2009)

Guys, gotta make this quick. Wife's in the hospital and I'm up to my ass in alligators.



hemphopper said:


> This is a most educational thread, as has been said before. I'd like to ask UB if you could put up a link to making your own potting mix. Maybe you've done that already but I haven't found it yet.
> 
> Thanks,
> H


Here ya go. It's the basics regarding the provision of essential elements, water retention, aeration, etc. you're concerned with. This is just what I do.


> I use alot of brown sphagnum peat moss, a large bag of Schultz potting mix, and a bag of cheap potting soil (screened to get rid of the chunky stuff) to make up enough for 30 to 40 gallons of a final mix, which I mix on a cement floor using a shovel and store in large garbage cans. To this base which provides humates, an acidic hit, trace elements, etc. and a little silt to tighten up the mix and retain moisture, I add:
> 
> 6 or so cups blood meal, 3 or so cups bonemeal, 4 cups dolomite lime, 1 large bag each of vermiculite and perlite (available at Casa dePOT) and alfalfa meal which contains a hormone called triacontanol (purported to increase vegetable production up to 60%). I buy alfalfa feed pellets from a farm and ranch supply store, put about 4 cups of the pellets in a bucket with a gallon of water and give it a good squirt of Ivory dish soap to cut the surface tension, let it stand for 30 minutes, and then dump the slurry into the mix on the floor. I sometimes add composted horse manure, maybe about 3 or 4 gallons of it. The final, slightly moist soil mix is turned well with a shovel and stored for a couple of weeks in garbage cans to "mellow".





Jack in the Bud said:


> I'll be following the pruning technique you started this thread with but my problem has been that my plants etoliate far to quickly.
> 
> Anything you'd be willing to tell me about your soil mix, lighting cycle and fertilizing program would be greatly appreciated.


It's all in the balance:

1. Measure your light in f.c. Aim for an overall 6,000 f.c. a couple of inches down into the canopy or at least at the tops. 

2. Proper nutrition which means you always know the ratio of NPK. I grow for the most amount of foliage during veg and attempt to maintain that foliage in a healthy, green, productive state until harvest. No flushing for me, and no excessive "bloom" foods. If the leaves start to prematurely drop or yellow from the bottom up, don't just sit there mesmerized by forum paradigms, give them what they REQUIRE. Hit 'em with a 30-10-10 until they stop dropping their leaves. Ever notice that the guys that parrot "it's natural for cannabis to lose their leaves" are the ones who can't grow a plant well up to harvest? Don't listen to them, they are usually butchering/abusing their plants' health with bloom foods. Keep those leaves green and abundant and do not "leaf", even shaded leaves.

3. Learn to read your plants (keep them green and heavy in the foliage.)



> I believe I've got my grow space set up to the point where I can duplicate your results if you'll just coach me a bit.
> 
> My space is 5 x 7. I got the walls covered with foil and have a 400W Sylvania Metal Arc a 100W GE lucalox and 4 150W (equivalent) cfl's for lighting. Got CO2 set up on a timer to run for 15 minutes every 2 hrs. I've got the lighting, fans and venting all set up on a series of timers and thermostats that I've managed to cobble together from parts found at Home Depot. In fact if I make sure every things watered I can usually go a way for 4 to 5 days with no problem.
> 
> ...


Don't mind coaching you but you can make it easier on yourself if you get Mel Franks MJ Insiders Growers Guide. I have the 1982 edition, it's been updated. Why do I like him? He knows botany and is truly a master gardener. Jorge Cervantes' Bible is excellent too, for the most part. There is some erroneous info, but the chapter on lighting is worth the price of the book alone. Regular books on indoor growing help.

You're on the right track although overdoing it a bit like with the extra drainage holes. If you have a robust root system and lot's of foliage, root rot will NEVER be an issue. If you're fighting root spinout and potbound conditions, then you're doing good. 

Aluminum sulfate is a great acidifier, but you shouldn't need it if you have enough peat moss, plus cannabis is pretty pH tolerant regarding nutrient availability and that is the issue. Most mixes land around 6.5 anyway. I also like slow release encapsulated foods (Osmocote and/or organics). Plants like everything in moderation but for sustained periods - salts, water, air, light, etc. IMO, CO2 is a waste of time. Change of room air is cheaper and does fine. You can have a toxic condition with CO2 so you have to monitor it. 

Good luck,
UB


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## hemphopper (Sep 17, 2009)

Thanks Uncle Ben,

I'll keep you and your wife in my thoughts. I know my wife is my best friend after so many years. Not easy. Be well.
H


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## hemphopper (Sep 17, 2009)

Casa de POT !!

Tio Benito - you're too much!


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## passerbye (Sep 17, 2009)

I accidentally discovered a nice way to get 3 tops. Instead of topping it, 

cut half of the main shoot. It damages the top and forces the 2 bottom ones to grow. After 1 week the damaged top regenerates and comes in line with the other tops. 

If you combine this with the 4 top described here, you will wind up with 6 colas! 

I have done this many times and it works. The leaves from the main shoot usually wind up being mangled looking half leaves due to the half cut. The point here is cut enough of the top to stop growth temporarily to allow the boottom shoots to grow.


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## Jack in the Bud (Sep 17, 2009)

Uncle Ben,

Sorry to hear about the wife. I hope it's nothing too serious and that everything turns out O.K. Please don't ever feel you have to immediately respond to anything I ask. Please do so only at your liesure. I'm way past the point of panicking about things and realize there's a lot more important things in life than just growing a good crop of weed. 

Thanks for explaining about your soil mix. I just happen to have a 3.8 cubic foot bale of Sunshine Mix #2 (80% spagnum peat moss) and a 2cf bag of MG potting mix already in my pile. And I'm pretty sure I've seen all the other ingredients you mentioned at my local Low Power Depot. I've got several feed stores in the area so getting my hands on some alfalfa pellets should be no problem. I'll probably grab a couple 30 to 40 gallon plastic trash cans while I'm out shopping also. Should be able to get this soil mix put together in the next week so it has a couple of weeks to "mother up and mellow" before the start of the next grow.

I'll also be getting a copy of Mel Frank's book coming my way. All though I never have any thing to do with growing sent directly to me I've got a discret non-growing friend who'll take care of ordering and recieving it for me if I give them the cash.

From reading a lot of your other posts I've gotten an inkling of some other things I could be doing differently. Still got lots of questions but they can wait till your a little less up to your ass in gators.

Once again, I sure hope everything turns out for the best with your wife.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 17, 2009)

Jack in the Bud said:


> Uncle Ben,
> 
> Sorry to hear about the wife. I hope it's nothing too serious and that everything turns out O.K.


Found her on the floor with a totally fractured femur such that the lower bone segment was driven above the upper by 2" as reflected by XRays. She was whisked off via ambulance to ER. Surgery involved pin and screws placements. It's the long incision and muscle soreness that's gonna be bitch for a while, bone will heal together fine. Looks like I'm gonna wear the hat of Nurse's Aid, oh well, that's what marital committments are all about.  Thanks for asking. 



> Please don't ever feel you have to immediately respond to anything I ask. Please do so only at your liesure. I'm way past the point of panicking about things and realize there's a lot more important things in life than just growing a good crop of weed.


Appreciate the kind thoughts and a voice of reason.



> Thanks for explaining about your soil mix. I just happen to have a 3.8 cubic foot bale of Sunshine Mix #2 (80% spagnum peat moss) and a 2cf bag of MG potting mix already in my pile. And I'm pretty sure I've seen all the other ingredients you mentioned at my local Low Power Depot. I've got several feed stores in the area so getting my hands on some alfalfa pellets should be no problem. I'll probably grab a couple 30 to 40 gallon plastic trash cans while I'm out shopping also. Should be able to get this soil mix put together in the next week so it has a couple of weeks to "mother up and mellow" before the start of the next grow.


That will work. Dump it all on a concrete floor, make sure it's moist, mix well with a shovel and store in large cans.



> I'll also be getting a copy of Mel Frank's book coming my way. All though I never have any thing to do with growing sent directly to me I've got a discret non-growing friend who'll take care of ordering and recieving it for me if I give them the cash.


Here's my pick for discrete ordering, service and quality of info:

http://www.redeyepress.com/htm/book3.htm

Check on http://www.redeyepress.com/htm/halfprice.htm , it's a bargain.



> From reading a lot of your other posts I've gotten an inkling of some other things I could be doing differently. Still got lots of questions but they can wait till your a little less up to your ass in gators.
> 
> Once again, I sure hope everything turns out for the best with your wife.


Thanks, and happy gardening!


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## Sure Shot (Sep 17, 2009)

My condolences.


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## Jack in the Bud (Sep 18, 2009)

UB,

Glad to hear the wife will mend. 

Thanks for the link to the discounted copy of that book. I'd been searching for it under his name and could only find the "Deluxe Grow Guide" and not the "Insider's Guide". I take it there's a difference in content between them and that of the two the "Insiders guide" is the better???

As to the soil mix you've mentioned.... Is it what you initially plant your seeds in? Or do you start them out in something different for the first week or so? 

My technique has been has been to germinate the seeds between wet paper towels and then transplant them directly into the potting mix they'll spend the rest of their life in. At first I put them into 4x4x5 deep pots and put them under my 400W light (about 2 to 3 foot above them) with the light on continuously. From what I've been reading here lately I begining to suspect that this may be a little to much light to quickly. What's happened is that they've grown so tall and spindly so quickly that they've almost all fallen over and required being tied to a stake during the first week or so of growth. My thinking now is that besides to much light they may have gotten to many nuterients from the potting mix to quickly also. My first true node ends up being 6 to 8 inches above the top of the soil where yours seem to be right down there with in 2 inches. And while my main stem does eventually bulk up further up the plant it always remains skinnier where it comes out of the soil. 

When you get the time could you elaborate on your lighting and cycle time at the beginning of a grow?

Thanks.


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## hemphopper (Sep 18, 2009)

Hi,

I'm not UB but I've had really good seedling starts using T5 HO Fluoros up real close to the seedlings - 2 to 3 inches. That will give you very close internodal spacing during early veg - maybe all of veg.


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## Jack in the Bud (Sep 18, 2009)

hemphopper said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm not UB but I've had really good seedling starts using T5 HO Fluoros up real close to the seedlings - 2 to 3 inches. That will give you very close internodal spacing during early veg - maybe all of veg.


 
hh,

Thanks for the info. I've got a 4 bulb 8 foot fluoro fixture (basically a standard shop light fixture) I've drug out and set up for a little experiment in a spare room. Should have some results in a week or two.

How long do you keep yours under the fluros before moving them to more intense lighting? Also what's your initial light cycle (24/0, 20/4, 18/6, etc.)?

Thanks.


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## hemphopper (Sep 18, 2009)

Hi Jack,

(don't say that in an airport) I did 18/6 for veg. Barney's farm Blue Cheese, an Indica strain. Very close branching but they did stretch in flower. I don't have an HPS so I stayed with T5's and supplemented with 8 42 cfl's for flowering. Good yield but nothing compared to what experienced folks like Uncle Ben are doing.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 18, 2009)

Jack in the Bud said:


> UB,
> 
> Glad to hear the wife will mend.
> 
> ...


Same mix, I just screen thru a colander.



> My technique has been has been to germinate the seeds between wet paper towels


Bad practice. Sow directly in soil, like nature planned it.



> What's happened is that they've grown so tall and spindly so quickly that they've almost all fallen over and required being tied to a stake during the first week or so of growth.


Shouldn't be falling over, especially under good light. They will tend to be leggy for a while though. The natural progression is to bulk up.



> My thinking now is that besides to much light they may have gotten to many nuterients from the potting mix to quickly also. My first true node ends up being 6 to 8 inches above the top of the soil where yours seem to be right down there with in 2 inches. And while my main stem does eventually bulk up further up the plant it always remains skinnier where it comes out of the soil.
> 
> When you get the time could you elaborate on your lighting and cycle time at the beginning of a grow?
> 
> Thanks.


20/4 veg. 12/12 flower.



Sure Shot said:


> My condolences.


Thanks. This too shall pass.

UB


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## Jack in the Bud (Sep 19, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Same mix, I just screen thru a colander.
> 
> Bad practice. Sow directly in soil, like nature planned it.
> 
> ...


 
UB,

Hope all is well with you and yours this morning. Judging by how tight my hat is fitting I must have had a damm good time last night. All though I'm sitting here wishing we hadn't of pulled the cork on that last bottle of Amador County Red. Oh man, the kitchen looks like a herd of wild pigs went thru it. 

Once again thanks for the info. I've been reading so much in these forums this past week that some of it is starting to run together. But I seem to think I recall a post by you that talked about using a fluorescent shop light fixture for the first week or so of a seedlings life. Is this so or have I just gotten myself confused with too much input?

I have done the seed directly into the soil method several times before but was getting a week to 10 days spread time from first and last to germinate. Switched to the paper towel method and it helped me get them all starting out closer together.

I will be stopping the 24/0 light cycle for the veg period on this next run. I'll be going with your recommedation of 20/4 and then 12/12. My last veg time (under 24/0) was 29 days. I've gone a week or two longer on some runs in the past but ended up with plants that got a little to tall for my space. All though I'm thinking that by going with your pruning to 4 main cola technique it will help keep the finishing height down some what and allow me to give them a little more veg time if you think that would be beneficial toward the final quality and quantity of the harvest. [Just to note, the last time I cut to 12/12 and began forcing it only took 8 days before all the plants had indicated.]

Due to my space restrictions I kept everything in the 4x4x5 pots until I knew they were females before repotting up in container size. It was kind of a pain in the ass though because during the last week or so before they indicated I was having to water once or twice a day and was stuck staying pretty close to the fort. While I had a fair root system at that point I wouldn't say that they were root bound like some things I've seen pictures of. I'm hoping that by going with the 20/4 light cycle and your potting mix I'll be getting a lot better root (and over all plant) structure.

Should have my copy of Frank's book some time this coming week.

And now, I gotta go muck this kitchen out and after that maybe a supply run to _casa dePOT_.

Life is short, Garden naked.

Jack


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## snodegd (Sep 19, 2009)

UB,

Can you perform this method on Autodwarfs? I know they aren't the best genetics but my space or lack there of requires them. 

Thanks


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## firsttimegrowa (Sep 19, 2009)

hey im new to all this i no it sounds daft but i dont know what nodes are so would you be able to explain how to do it in simpler words for me . cheers


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## Sure Shot (Sep 19, 2009)

firsttimegrowa said:


> hey im new to all this i no it sounds daft but i dont know what nodes are so would you be able to explain how to do it in simpler words for me . cheers


How about you "google" the word nodes first and see if that helps.


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## Fred Flintstoner (Sep 19, 2009)

Hey Uncle Ben,

I was curious if you could provide any information on "lollipopping" the plants? If so, I was wondering when you think it might be best to do, and how many lower branches you would recommend cutting back? Do you even recommend this method?

Great Thread


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## born2killspam (Sep 20, 2009)

Jack, might I suggest ditching the foil and painting the walls flat white.. Foil is not the same as mylar, it reflects less than flat white paint, and its really tough to get a smooth reflection cast..
Beyond that I don't want to start a nute-war, but MG was never good for me in pots.. Shultz's, Plant-Prod and other cheapies were easier to manage.. MG tended to start things great, but went downhill, and the longer the regimen, the worse the run-off numbers got.. A few others have claimed similar observations.. My assumption is that my MG products had pretty much no nitrate nitrogen, but who knows I might just be a libelous moron..


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## Jack in the Bud (Sep 20, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Jack, might I suggest ditching the foil and painting the walls flat white.. Foil is not the same as mylar, it reflects less than flat white paint, and its really tough to get a smooth reflection cast..
> Beyond that I don't want to start a nute-war, but MG was never good for me in pots.. Shultz's, Plant-Prod and other cheapies were easier to manage.. MG tended to start things great, but went downhill, and the longer the regimen, the worse the run-off numbers got.. A few others have claimed similar observations.. My assumption is that my MG products had pretty much no nitrate nitrogen, but who knows I might just be a libelous moron..


b2ks,

The irony here is that under the foil the walls _are_ already painted flat white. This must be one of those counter-intuitive things because it sure seems brighter in there now than it did before I put the foil up. Along with everything else I've been reading and seeing in these forums your suggestion in this area does seem to have merit though. I'll be considering it strongly.

As to the MG, I believe I'm coming to the same conclusion you've already reached regarding it. On the next grow I'll be using the planting mix UB described several posts back and doing a 20/4 veg (as opposed to a 24/0).

Thanks for the in put.

Jack


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## born2killspam (Sep 20, 2009)

If it wasn't so counter intuitive then there would be no backup merit on the forum since there is little reason to point out the obvious..
Beyond that I bet you're using it shiney side out right?? Well surprisingly enough the diffused side reflects better for plants.. Flat white diffuses light very well, and plants use light best when its diffused because it casts more evenly across the chlorophylls..
Neither UB or myself are fans of concentrated light.. Its inefficient and lowers quality..


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## cappeeler09 (Sep 20, 2009)

thats quality shit bro,i need to learn how to do that is it garunteed to work if u cut it


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## born2killspam (Sep 20, 2009)

Yea, here is the secret about pot.. The plant is resilient as shit, and you can cut it anywhere above true foliage at any time without 'hurting' it (in flowering however you do not want to alter any growth patterns).. The purpose of posting the technique is to share details on a point, and a time to top that will yield predictable growth patterns with maximum value to the majority of grow spaces..


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## Jack in the Bud (Sep 20, 2009)

b2ks,

Since it seems you've already been where I'm currently at regarding this whole cultivation thing I was wondering if I could get you to expound a little on your harvesting technique. I'm approximately 3 weeks out from one and from all my reading in these forums it seems there might be some things I maybe should be doing differently. To begin with what do you think of this leaving the plant in darkness for any where between 24 and 72 hours before harvesting?

What I've been doing is keeping a eye on the trichromes and when I start to notice a few amber ones I harvest. Also the formation of any of those banannas will cause me to harvest with in a couple of days of spotting them. I've left them on there before for a week or two longer and gotten some of those small immature seeds in the bud. I had a theory that by pollinating one small bud towards the bottom of each plant (there by letting the plant repoduce to a small extent) it would keep it from forming those bannanas late in flowering. That didn't seem to work out as planned because I've still gotten them even when a lower bud on the plant had good mature seeds formed on it. Also I've always harvested after the lights have been on for several hours. But it wouldn't be any major problem for me to harvest right after an extended dark period if you think there's any value in doing that. 

Also for the last week to 10 days I give them nothing but straight water and try to give them a least one good flushing during that time. In the past I've staggered out the harvest over a week or two but have gotten to the point where every thing is pretty much close together as far as maturity goes. There's always one or two plants that it wouldn't hurt to give a little more time to and maybe one or two that are some what past their prime. I just try to gauge the over all crop maturity/quality and harvest everything at once. For one thing I use the same space for controlling the enviroment while hanging and drying. Another thing I've done the last two crops (and don't ask me where I got the idea because it's most likely one of my own personal brain farts) is to immedietly put the buds into big glass jars for 24 hours after trimming them to let them sweat. Then they colas are hung (and the smaller buds laid out in cardboard pop/beer flats to slowly dry until they just start to get some crunchyness to them and then it's back into the jars and monitored closely for the next couple weeks, letting them breath a little each day as needed so no mold developes. I learned the hard way (by having a jar of buds get moldy) that you have to keep a close eye on things and check them at least once a day at this stage of the cure. I didn't let that go to waste though. I dried it out, ground it up and and sauted it in vegatable oil and then used that oil to make brownies with. Space brownies are getting to be my favorite method of ingesting THC. The only major downside that I've experienced is that they do tend to make you prattle on about things. In fact I've got one kicking in pretty good right now.

Jack


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## Jack in the Bud (Sep 20, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> If it wasn't so counter intuitive then there would be no backup merit on the forum since there is little reason to point out the obvious..
> Beyond that I bet you're using it shiney side out right?? Well surprisingly enough the diffused side reflects better for plants.. Flat white diffuses light very well, and plants use light best when its diffused because it casts more evenly across the chlorophylls..
> Neither UB or myself are fans of concentrated light.. Its inefficient and lowers quality..


Au contraire mon bon ami, I did get the part about the diffused side of the foil right. 

The foil is not coming down today but most likely before the start of the next grow it is and the walls are getting a fresh coat of flat white. That is unless there's something else you and UB might consider even better.

Jack


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## Katatawnic (Sep 20, 2009)

Fred Flintstoner said:


> I was curious if you could provide any information on "lollipopping" the plants? If so, I was wondering when you think it might be best to do, and how many lower branches you would recommend cutting back? Do you even recommend this method?


UB doesn't lollipop.  Last reply I remember UB making to a lollipop question was, "What's lollipopping?"  If you want to learn how to do it correctly, talk to GypsyBush and/or M Blaze. There are many other experienced growers who lollipop, but these are the two I know off the top of my head that do it and do it very well. 

I like your username, BTW.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 20, 2009)

Jack in the Bud said:


> UB,
> 
> Hope all is well with you and yours this morning. Judging by how tight my hat is fitting I must have had a damm good time last night. All though I'm sitting here wishing we hadn't of pulled the cork on that last bottle of Amador County Red. Oh man, the kitchen looks like a herd of wild pigs went thru it.


Sounds like a good time to me! Last time I did that was bringing up a shitload of tequila to Lousiana - cajun coon asses had to go thru the line at least 3 times to be "a real man". 



> Once again thanks for the info. I've been reading so much in these forums this past week that some of it is starting to run together. But I seem to think I recall a post by you that talked about using a fluorescent shop light fixture for the first week or so of a seedlings life. Is this so or have I just gotten myself confused with too much input?


Using 4' shop fluors is a real easy and cheap way to start plants. Use chains to adjust the height based on the shortest ones at one end going to the taller ones at the other. Keep regular fluors almost touching the leaves. When the footprint of the leafsets grow quite a bit outside the hood, it's time to go under HID.



> I will be stopping the 24/0 light cycle for the veg period on this next run. I'll be going with your recommedation of 20/4 and then 12/12. My last veg time (under 24/0) was 29 days. I've gone a week or two longer on some runs in the past but ended up with plants that got a little to tall for my space. All though I'm thinking that by going with your pruning to 4 main cola technique it will help keep the finishing height down some what and allow me to give them a little more veg time if you think that would be beneficial toward the final quality and quantity of the harvest. [Just to note, the last time I cut to 12/12 and began forcing it only took 8 days before all the plants had indicated.]


My philosophy is "if you ain't experimenting, then there's something wrong." You'll learn real quick. Try it. Topping reduces plant height. Whether that is an issue for you depends on your garden's profile, indica vs. sativa, etc.



> I'm hoping that by going with the 20/4 light cycle and your potting mix I'll be getting a lot better root (and over all plant) structure.


Growing is all about tweaks. Everything you do plays into the final equation. You have to develop your own program. No one can do that for you.

Have fun with Mel's book. I was mesmerized many years ago. I think you will be too.



snodegd said:


> UB,
> 
> Can you perform this method on Autodwarfs? I know they aren't the best genetics but my space or lack there of requires them.
> 
> Thanks


Not sure what a autodwarf is. Like I said, I play games with this hormonal response. It will work well on any plant having opposing leafsets (nodes). It works fine on autoflowering plants, those with "rudy" in them if they are still in the veg stage.



Fred Flintstoner said:


> Hey Uncle Ben,
> 
> I was curious if you could provide any information on "lollipopping" the plants? If so, I was wondering when you think it might be best to do, and how many lower branches you would recommend cutting back? Do you even recommend this method?
> 
> Great Thread



I gave up lollipops many years ago. 

Good luck fellers ~


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## cappeeler09 (Sep 20, 2009)

i need to be tryin that,this is my 1st time growin ive got a 1.2 by 1.0 metre square tent wich is also 2 metres high my crop is finished in the next few weeks and im gonna get a bigger tent,so what i was gonna do with my small tent is just put 1 or 2 big ass plants,could i fit 2 in ther and top them to get 4 top heads.....would it be well worth it


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## notpatient (Sep 20, 2009)

well from time to time to I stop in to check out this thread more for the pics, never said thanks for sharing this genius method of topping. Its probable no biggie for you but its a huge deal for me x4


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## dive1 (Sep 21, 2009)

Hey Unkle Ben, Hello from a fellow Texan. Thank you for your fantastic thread and all the info you have shared with us.

My question is, I have a clone only cali strain(blue dream) and the stem nodes aren't parallel with each other. In other words they are not staggered. I've never really seen a pot plant grow like this in vegitive state. Back to my question, is there anyway to incorporate this technique with growth that doesn't have opposing nodes?

One more too. Have you ever seen a marijuana plant grow like this in it's vegitive state? If so could you explain to me. I've done a little research on the strain. It's suppose to be a DJ short blueberry crossed with a haze. It look like a 100% sativa but has growth qualities like a indica.

Any input would be awesome.

Thanks a lot again for all the info you've put out.

peace and love

- anonymous in texas


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## born2killspam (Sep 21, 2009)

A clone carries the genetic age of its mother plant.. A seedling will begin by growing opposing nodes.. When it reaches sexual maturity about a month into its life it will form preflowers and begin the alternating nodes you see..
A clone is as sexually mature as its mother, so they immediately grow with alternating phylotaxy.. Its not about vegitative state or light cycle, its about genetic age..
You can top a clone.. It will shift growth focus to the secondaries, but you won't get quite the same uniformity as with opposing nodes and UB's method.. Remember that alternating nodes really count as 1/2 of an opposing node, so if you want 4 equalish tops you'd need to snip above the 4th node.. And for the record, all nodes on a clone are true nodes so long as they're actively growing and not cannibalized..


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## Jack in the Bud (Sep 22, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Sounds like a good time to me! Last time I did that was bringing up a shitload of tequila to Lousiana - cajun coon asses had to go thru the line at least 3 times to be "a real man".
> 
> Using 4' shop fluors is a real easy and cheap way to start plants. Use chains to adjust the height based on the shortest ones at one end going to the taller ones at the other. Keep regular fluors almost touching the leaves. When the footprint of the leafsets grow quite a bit outside the hood, it's time to go under HID.
> 
> ...


Morn'n UB,

I've spent some time working in Louisiana and some of those cajun boys are definetly a different breed of cat. About the only thing I've ever missed about Louisiana is some of their cooking.

How's the wife doing? 

I've been working on gathering up my componets for a soil mix like you recomended and here's what I got so far.

3.8 cf bale of Sunshine Mix #2 (70 to 80 % spahgnum peat moss, coarse perlite, gypsum, dolmitic lime and wetting agent)

2 cf bag MG potting mix.

1 cf bag EarthGro garden soil.

1 cf bag EarthGro steer manure compost.

Blood meal, Bone meal and PlantTone's garden lime (which the label says is derived from dolmitic lime)

1 8 dry quart bag of Perlite (Is that what you consider a "big" bag?)

Alfalfa pellets (50 lb sack, $13)

Still looking for some vermiculite. There was none at casa dePot yesterday but I've still got a few more places to check for it locally. I'm still not clear on what you consider a "big bag" of that and the perlite.

What do you think? Am I on the right track? I hope to get some vermiculite today so I can get it mixed up today or tommorrow so it can have 2 or 3 weeks to mellow before I use it.

Thanks.

Jack


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 22, 2009)

cappeeler09 said:


> .....would it be well worth it


I think so, but half the fun in gardening is experimenting. Keep a journal.



notpatient said:


> well from time to time to I stop in to check out this thread more for the pics, never said thanks for sharing this genius method of topping. Its probable no biggie for you but its a huge deal for me x4


Wow, glad you like it. I would bet that 90% of you guys are not seeing the forests for the trees. That is not meant to be a putdown, it is again stressing what this thread is all about - redirecting growth hormones. Again, once you understand plant processes, you'll have more confidence as a grower and will be able to make solid decisions. I don't really like telling you what to do as I don't have your garden. Rather I'd like to empower you with ideas, caveats, etc. so you can make your own choices.



dive1 said:


> Hey Unkle Ben, Hello from a fellow Texan. Thank you for your fantastic thread and all the info you have shared with us.
> 
> My question is, I have a clone only cali strain(blue dream) and the stem nodes aren't parallel with each other. In other words they are not staggered.


Hola, or shall I say "howdy"! Staggered means alternate phylotaxxy. You won't get the response you want. Growth auxins collect primarily in the apex, the end, of the dominant terminal leader. In English that means at the tip, the meristem tissue, of the usual main cola. By topping, you're terminating that point, auxins have to do somewhere so they choose the next lowest dormant buds which are located where the leaf petiole connects to the "trunk". 

Thanks again Spam for your input. As usual, it's always a pleasure. 



> One more too. Have you ever seen a marijuana plant grow like this in it's vegitive state?


If you have staggered node sites, alternate phytolaxxy, then you may be getting a flowering response due to ruderalis genes. Sensi and some others have been known to throw them into the mix.



born2killspam said:


> A clone carries the genetic age of its mother plant.. A seedling will begin by growing opposing nodes.. When it reaches sexual maturity about a month into its life it will form preflowers and begin the alternating nodes you see..
> A clone is as sexually mature as its mother, so they immediately grow with alternating phylotaxy.. Its not about vegitative state or light cycle, its about genetic age..


But you can re-veg that clone by exposing it to long days/short nights and kicking up the N quite a bit as part of a phytochrome production thingie. We had a long discussion about this age biz at CW in regards to the various terms of age, what it is, how many variances there are of "it". Remember the pissin' contest Vic High and I got into at CW? I still have the crux of that "discussion" about what constitutes "age" in different plant material. An example would be taking old scion wood, say pecan, grape, or citrus and grafting it to typical rootstock material. The scion wood has the age of it's mother, it knows it's old, but it still needs to go thru an establishment phase, some chronological age and development before it will bear fruit. This is good for another thread on that one. 



Jack in the Bud said:


> Morn'n UB,
> 
> I've spent some time working in Louisiana and some of those cajun boys are definetly a different breed of cat. About the only thing I've ever missed about Louisiana is some of their cooking.
> 
> How's the wife doing?


She's got it made in the shade. I'm the one being run ragged. She's got herself a slave, but today when she wanted me to wash down a crapper containment sleeve that drops down into an extended height toilet seat, that's where I drew the line. "You want that fukkin' shield, then YOU're gonna clean it after every use." I'm married to one of those where if you give her an inch she'll try to take a mile - no shame. 

You asked. 



> I've been working on gathering up my componets for a soil mix like you recomended and here's what I got so far.
> 
> 3.8 cf bale of Sunshine Mix #2 (70 to 80 % spahgnum peat moss, coarse perlite, gypsum, dolmitic lime and wetting agent)
> 
> ...


Sounds damn good. I'd toss in a handful of blood meal and bone meal. Don't worry about greensand or a K provision, you don't need it. Make sure that isn't hydrated lime. It MUST be dolomite. Go easy on the alfalfa, too much triacontanol can and will work against you.



> Still looking for some vermiculite. There was none at casa dePot yesterday but I've still got a few more places to check for it locally. I'm still not clear on what you consider a "big bag" of that and the perlite.


You're gonna have to do this by feel and touch and of course observation regarding final soil structure, nutrition, etc. After using it for a cycle on a few plants, you'll get a feel of your program, and that's what it's all about - developing your own program and learning tweaks that work best for YOU, not someone else.

Have fun, 
Tio


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## born2killspam (Sep 22, 2009)

Which do you think is quicker to reach actual maturity, a reveged clone or a seed?? The seed??


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 22, 2009)

born2killspam said:


> Which do you think is quicker to reach actual maturity, a reveged clone or a seed?? The seed??


Depends on genotype and how you define "maturity". Most of the time I consider 3 week old seedlings mature and have no problem flowering them into large bushes while the next guy needs to give his faves 13 weeks veg. Depends on many factors.


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## Azgrow (Sep 22, 2009)

ub how long after the cut do you flower out..i got a set going into flower on sunday but if i got enough time to see a bennifit i'll give the 4tops a shot....az


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 23, 2009)

Azgrow said:


> ub how long after the cut do you flower out..i got a set going into flower on sunday but if i got enough time to see a bennifit i'll give the 4tops a shot....az


When they reach about 12-16" in height, all depends on genetics and presumed stretch.


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## HHF (Sep 23, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> When they reach about 12-16" in height, all depends on genetics and presumed stretch.


Damn, UB, it is amazing how many folks you have helped over the years and along the way with useful cultivation help. 

It must literally be millions now friend.

Peace and much respect for that effort.
HHF


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 23, 2009)

HHF said:


> Damn, UB, it is amazing how many folks you have helped over the years and along the way with useful cultivation help.
> 
> It must literally be millions now friend.
> 
> ...


Howdy! What a long and crazy road it's been, eh? Started doing this over 10 years ago, maybe 15? Time flies......

Regards,
Ben


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## HHF (Sep 23, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy! What a long and crazy road it's been, eh? Started doing this over 10 years ago, maybe 15? Time flies......
> 
> Regards,
> Ben


I have lost track Ben, lol, for sure it has been a long and winding road and you have been there since the start.

Honestly, cannot express how much you have taught us all in the community over those years, noob's, experienced and masters alike. 

Some amazing things explored along the way and its soul warming to see you still doing it, really is.

When I get stuck on plant cultivation matters I still resort to your writings on these things. No bum steers, and it has helped me a lot friend.

One of the Cannabis community's MVP's for sure. You have a big and good heart man.

Thanks again.
Peace! HHF


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 23, 2009)

HHF said:


> I have lost track Ben, lol, for sure it has been a long and winding road and you have been there since the start.
> 
> Honestly, cannot express how much you have taught us all in the community over those years, noob's, experienced and masters alike.
> 
> ...


Shyste burgers! I'm red with embarrassment. Don't know quite what to say other than I'm so happy I've touched your life in such a positive way. Thanks man.

I like to share. For example, I do alot of veggie gardening, canning, etc. It gives me great joy to share my harvests both in pot and veggies, fruits, grapes, etc. with others. That's what life is all about. I now work in an ag community that is collaborative. I came from a community that was competitive. It's easy once you understand the difference.

Good luck,
Uncle Ben


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## supdro (Sep 23, 2009)

hey bro i used some of your techniques... we will see if they work. I used the topping technique a week before i started flower. Like you said i hope it keeps them somewhat short and get multiple colas..... I don't know if i really want them short since they are w widow. .....


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## jsteezy1290 (Sep 23, 2009)

hey ben , this is my first grow and im bout 4 weeks into vegging is it to late to do this? i have a thread in indoor grow that shows the size of my plants, i really dont get the node thing


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## Snak (Sep 23, 2009)

Throw me in to the mix of people who are eternally grateful for your wealth of knowledge, Ben.

My first grow consisted of 3 northern lights plants, one of which received the Uncle Ben treatment and yielded me the most (and best quality) bud between the three. Now I'm starting my 2nd grow and I've decided to top all of them this time.

HOWEVER--- I made sort of a mistake . After attempting to top above the 2nd node, I accidentally lopped off one of the branches that eventually develops into a cola. So the two lower ones are still in tact, but the higher set will only consist of one branch. So I think I'm looking at a future 3-cola baby? I'm not worried, she'll grow just fine, but I wanted to know if you've ever made the same mistake, and how your 3-cola girl treated you?

Also, I wanted to mention that my experience using CFLs leads me to believe that it is hard to get 4 same-sized colas without the use of the natural sun or an HPS bulb. The CFL's don't seem to penetrate deeply enough to the lower branches, and instead focus a lot of energy on the higher two main branches. The 4 colas on my last plant were all different sizes, 2 being obscenely large, one was average/small, and one was damn tiny. One week after topping my most recent plants, I once again see that the higher two branches are exhibiting a lot of growth, but the lower two branches don't produce nearly as much foliage.

Regardless of that fact, the 4 cola plant I had was VERY compatible with my CFLs- they nestled right in between the colas and spread light everywhere. It was easier getting the lights where i needed them on my topped plant than it was with my untopped plants.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 24, 2009)

supdro said:


> hey bro i used some of your techniques... we will see if they work. I used the topping technique a week before i started flower. Like you said i hope it keeps them somewhat short and get multiple colas..... I don't know if i really want them short since they are w widow. .....


Height depends on alot of factors. White Widow should be pretty stretchy.



jsteezy1290 said:


> hey ben , this is my first grow and im bout 4 weeks into vegging is it to late to do this? i have a thread in indoor grow that shows the size of my plants, i really dont get the node thing


Sorry, can't make it any more clearer that I (we) already have. Sounds like you're not familiar with plant parts.



Snak said:


> Throw me in to the mix of people who are eternally grateful for your wealth of knowledge, Ben.


Appreciate that sentiment



> My first grow consisted of 3 northern lights plants, one of which received the Uncle Ben treatment and yielded me the most (and best quality) bud between the three. Now I'm starting my 2nd grow and I've decided to top all of them this time.


Very cool!



> HOWEVER--- I made sort of a mistake . After attempting to top above the 2nd node, I accidentally lopped off one of the branches that eventually develops into a cola. So the two lower ones are still in tact, but the higher set will only consist of one branch. So I think I'm looking at a future 3-cola baby?


Yep, but not to worry, it should branch or put out at one of the node axials. If you end up with a dominant branch aka leader from the primary one that was butchered, you might get it to grow OK and still be a dominant leader like the other 3. Never done one of those "aw shit" drills, but I wouldn't worry about it myself. Folks need to understand that in my technique, you are creating 4 dominant leaders instead of one. It's just that simple. All you're doing is redirecting the growth hormones, the greatest concentration usually located at the highest tissue point in most plant material/species. Of course there are also anti-auxins (growth inhibitors) at work too. Take a seed for example, all it is is a dormant embryo. Give this embryo certain outside influences (warmth, moisture, darkness or light) and it kicks the growth hormones into high gear which overtake the anti-growth (dormancy) hormones.



> Also, I wanted to mention that my experience using CFLs leads me to believe that it is hard to get 4 same-sized colas without the use of the natural sun or an HPS bulb. The CFL's don't seem to penetrate deeply enough to the lower branches, and instead focus a lot of energy on the higher two main branches. The 4 colas on my last plant were all different sizes, 2 being obscenely large, one was average/small, and one was damn tiny. One week after topping my most recent plants, I once again see that the higher two branches are exhibiting a lot of growth, but the lower two branches don't produce nearly as much foliage.


Sorry, but compared to an HID or the sun, CFL's suck. I really don't know why folks use them. You can't turn half of the tube's output back on itself (the coil) and expect excellent efficiency. A couple of choices is to use mobile side reflecting panels moving them adjacent to the foliage as the garden's footprint expands and contracts, placing lamps at the bottom etc. 



> Regardless of that fact, the 4 cola plant I had was VERY compatible with my CFLs- they nestled right in between the colas and spread light everywhere. It was easier getting the lights where i needed them on my topped plant than it was with my untopped plants.


Nice, especially if they are high output. If you dropped the lamps in the middle of the 4 colas and use something around the perimeter, you'd have a nice light tweak. I'd go with cheap 4' shop hoods myself overhead or on the sides using HO or VHO fluor lamps, if you must use fluors.

Good luck,
UB


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## born2killspam (Sep 24, 2009)

Something like a large canine surgery cone shaped reflector around the tops with the cfls hanging in the centre stadium style would be effective.. Mount a fan above to draw heat up, and lift the cooler CO2 rich air off the floor..
What size cfls are these anyways??


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## jsteezy1290 (Sep 24, 2009)

so what happens if you cut at the 5th or 6th node?


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## Snak (Sep 24, 2009)

Right now I'm working with 42W CFLs, with two 4ft 65W t5 bulbs across the top. I totally agree with Ben that they suck (compared to sunlight or hps) but they get the job done. I originally started off trying to do a budget grow, but after buying 16 42W cfls (started with less, but kept wanting more light) I could have easily put all the money into a nice HPS system. But thats what this is all about- making mistakes and learning from them.

I eventually plan on making the switch from CFLs to HPS, but until I have the extra $250 lying around (hopefully i can save that money after this harvest from not having to buy herb ), I'll be tinkering with these bulbs. I will probably keep my t-5's and 6500k CFLS for vegging, as they seem to do the job just fine, but I know deep down inside that I need to make the switch to HPS for flowering.


Ben thanks again for your insight. Watching the progress of my "accident", I'm seeing much more even progress between the 3 leading branches than any of the other plants I topped, which seem to really promote the growth of the top two leading branches. This might turn into a happy accident, so I look forward to seeing how she grows.


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## born2killspam (Sep 24, 2009)

They're the right flouros in anycase.. I'd suggest looking into industrial electrical/lighting places in your phone-book, the places contractors would use if you can cool them.. I used to get 400W setups for like $50-60.. Fancy bulbs/ballasts fon't really mean shit, but they're compatible nontheless..


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## supdro (Sep 24, 2009)

hey snaks don't let them get you down. cfl's work and are very efficient. get the book buds for less. great read!!! I have used them also to start out and you are doing the right thing. personally i would use t-5's so if one of the big ones burn out it won't cost an arm and leg to replace. I would recommend HTG supply good peeps and talk to tony if you have an issue .... he will fix it. sorry for jacking thread but what strains of plants have you topped and which did it not work so well with??


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 24, 2009)

Snak said:


> I eventually plan on making the switch from CFLs to HPS, but until I have the extra $250 lying around (hopefully i can save that money after this harvest from not having to buy herb ), I'll be tinkering with these bulbs. I will probably keep my t-5's and 6500k CFLS for vegging, as they seem to do the job just fine, but I know deep down inside that I need to make the switch to HPS for flowering.


By the time it's flowering, it's almost too late regardng plant vigor/health. In its natural setting, cannabis receives less light during flowering than veg. Leave it up to cannabis forums to get it bass ackwards and screw up plants with too much light and not enough N during the flowering response.



> Ben thanks again for your insight. Watching the progress of my "accident", I'm seeing much more even progress between the 3 leading branches than any of the other plants I topped, which seem to really promote the growth of the top two leading branches. This might turn into a happy accident, so I look forward to seeing how she grows.


Have fun. It's all about the learning experience.


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## Snak (Sep 24, 2009)

Ben- I see what you mean, about how going from CFL at veg to HPS at flower would be against the natural flow of things. If outdoor light isn't an option, are MH bulbs your suggested light?

supdro- Yeah the CFLs are doing their job right now, but I really do want to switch to HPS to avoid the hassle of light repositioning, and just having to use ONE plug would be such a relief . Actually, to be honest, I would most likely continue to use my CFLs in conjunction with an HPS bulb if I had my way (and I think I will in the coming months).

I also have already gone through Tony at HTG for my t5 bulbs and my FoxFarm nutrients. He did me well, yes he did. To answer your other questions, I had 3 northern lights plants, one which had been topped according to Ben's technique. Its conditions were identical to two other plants that had not been topped. The topped plant produced way more bud, and the quality was somehow better- the nugs were denser and sweeter. I'm not sure that has to do with the topping though, it may have just been that specific plant.

Born2kill- that sounds like a sweet deal, but keeping temps down in the summer kept me quite busy already, and I was only using CFLs . I don't mind spending the money on a good hps+ballast if it works well and saves me the hassle of constant light bulbs and clippys and pulling my hair out.


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## born2killspam (Sep 25, 2009)

MH lights are fine.. I think a mix of MH & HPS used throughout the grow is the best case scenario indoors..
Seriously I'd buy as much cheap HID as you can.. Fuck HTG (unless they can beast industrial wholesale prices like Westburne Electric )
These places usually have great deals on sweet blowers and fans, and carry small HID that will create less total heat than your cfls too..
Basically if you're in a position to actually grow then you can't do wrong with industrial type/sized stuff, but if you're just hoping to sneak out a crop in your closet before your mom puts your laundry away then stick with cfls and pc fans etc..


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 25, 2009)

Snak said:


> Ben- I see what you mean, about how going from CFL at veg to HPS at flower would be against the natural flow of things. If outdoor light isn't an option, are MH bulbs your suggested light?


It really doesn't matter what you use as long as you're growing plenty of foliage and keeping it green, healthy, and abundant until harvest. Some of my best results were using a HPS ONLY from start to finish. There is alot of hype when it comes to light spectrums. I have found in spite of all the ditties on spectrums, professional and otherwise, that the plant just doesn't care. Do the experiment. Grow a garden with only a HPS or MH, see for yourself. They are both full spectrum plants. The manufacturers and their vendors are only in it for the money, so they'll push this and that, conversion ballasts, all kinds of crap, etc. My best and most efficient hood is an old Diamond Lights, SMALL horizontal hood with a gull wing insert which I retrofitted with some very high quality, super shiny, spectral material using a drill and a rivet gun. I also built my own ballast box using parts and a junction box to house them in.

You're buying light so you should consider your light bill and efficiency and of course garden maintenance. I mean, who wants to be a slave to their plants? 

Proper placement of side reflecting panels can increase light received by 30%



> I had 3 northern lights plants, one which had been topped according to Ben's technique. Its conditions were identical to two other plants that had not been topped. The topped plant produced way more bud, and the quality was somehow better- the nugs were denser and sweeter. I'm not sure that has to do with the topping though, it may have just been that specific plant.


Who knows, it could have been the plant then again it could have been your culture. Whatever, you got your results and that's what counts.

Have fun,
Tio


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 25, 2009)

10000watts said:


> PLEASE READ > https://www.rollitup.org/toke-n-talk/246881-i-owe-mysticlown150-apology.html
> 
> My name is 420OldSchoolDJ420.. My account was banned .
> 
> so you ban me for no reason again? do you feel like big men? You know and everyone knows I didnt do shit to warrant a ban.. you ride ppl and ride ppl until you weed out the ones you dont like or that dont kiss your ass..


I think you got the wrong thread. This one is about topping. Please clean up your act (delete the diatribe).

Thanks,
UB


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## Snak (Sep 25, 2009)

Good info, guys, thanks again.


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## Katatawnic (Sep 25, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> You're buying light so you should consider your light bill and efficiency and of course garden maintenance. I mean, who wants to be a slave to their plants?


Uncle Ben, I think I love you!!!  Not "that" kinda love, but you know! 

Now, because I've got a legal limit to maintain (six mature plants), I do put extra work into my plants such as LST after topping, etc., because outdoor growing isn't possible in my neighborhood unless I want my work to be stolen right at harvest time and I need to maximize my yields in order to be able to cook with MJ which is so very much effective more on my pain than just smoking it. I also simply love gardening, and this "hobby" of mine (I tend to think of it as simply a large part of my life now) gives me something to do with my boring, housebound days. So I do put more work into my plants than some would, although not nearly as much work and worry as I've seen most do.

However, I've seen myriads (as I know you have as well) of conversations about how our plants just won't flourish and give back what we want if we don't do *everything* under the sun; sparing no expense, nearly to the point of sacrificing their limbs.... I was told just the other night that this guy often doesn't buy himself food so that his plants can have all they need!  I've commented to some of these people about my keeping to the basics (lights, nutrients, water, air; but forget about all the supplements and additives and.... I think you get me!). And I've of course been told that I'm wrong. They *say* give your plants love, but what they *mean* and *portray* is to sacrifice your life to them.

I just find it so ridiculous that the vast majority of these same people would never dream of putting so much money and hard labor into their fruit and veggie gardens. Sometimes I'm amused, but more often I'm wondering about their common sense.

As a matter of fact, the other night I was told that my post was "boring" because I listed the unnecessary things I do *not* buy or do for my garden, as opposed to the overkill the OP listed, resulting in happy and healthy plants; with something like "just doing it vs. doing it right" being the thread's title.

I've been challenged when I state that many growers overdo nutrients, or overdo anything period. I'm on my way to my first MJ harvest, so of course there are many that point out I can't know what I'm talking about until I've had several harvests under my belt. It doesn't matter that I've been gardening most of my life, and have always had a green thumb. Because, as you know, cannabis isn't a plant.... it's an ethereal entity that just can't be comprehended by those who view it as anything else.

I'm just ranting, really. But I do have to say that this is why I have such respect for you and the few growers I've found like you.... no nonsense growers, who understand plants and don't spin a web of mystique around cannabis. I can also say that I've been told on a few occasions that my own no nonsense approach is appreciated, so I suppose not all is lost when answering questions asked in the forums.  I was even given the name of "Encyclopedia Marijuanica" by one member, which I found to be creative as well as cute and just plain very complimentary. Flattering yet humbling at once.


ANYHOOO! *Rant aside, I do have a question for you:* one I've already asked and you're already answered, but unfortunately I failed to bookmark the page!  That would be the title/author of the book you'd recommended to me, to brush up on botany. I'd stated that it doesn't need to be cannabis related, just a good basic botany reference book. The title you suggested actually is cannabis related, but still focusing on botany rather than "do this, do that, and you'll be doing it right" kind of crap.  Would you be so kind and patient enough to give me this title/author again? The 1st is coming up, and I want to purchase it. 

Thanks in advance, and thanks for all you do for all of us!
~~ *Kat* ~~


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 26, 2009)

Katatawnic said:


> ....So I do put more work into my plants than some would, although not nearly as much work and worry as I've seen most do.




I hear you. Gardening is alot of fun.



> However, I've seen myriads (as I know you have as well) of conversations about how our plants just won't flourish and give back what we want if we don't do *everything* under the sun; sparing no expense, nearly to the point of sacrificing their limbs.... I was told just the other night that this guy often doesn't buy himself food so that his plants can have all they need!


I bet vendors like Advanced Nutrients love him!  I'd say the poor guy needs some professional counseling, that's nuts!



> I've commented to some of these people about my keeping to the basics (lights, nutrients, water, air; but forget about all the supplements and additives and.... I think you get me!). And I've of course been told that I'm wrong. They *say* give your plants love, but what they *mean* and *portray* is to sacrifice your life to them.


It's part of their idealogy, their mindset, and you'll never convince them otherwise that it's just a weed.



> I just find it so ridiculous that the vast majority of these same people would never dream of putting so much money and hard labor into their fruit and veggie gardens. Sometimes I'm amused, but more often I'm wondering about their common sense.


And what's ironic, is these growers usually have the worst looking plants. Really, I've seen if for years. The more crap you throw at a plant, the more problems you have, like nutrient antagonism. It's all about concepts, and they are more immersed in erroneous concepts than botanical ones -> http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm



> .....I've been challenged when I state that many growers overdo nutrients,.......


Send them the above link. 

 I used off the shelf stuff in this experiment and within 3.5 weeks, my seedlings were flowered with excellent yields. https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html



> I'm just ranting, really. But I do have to say that this is why I have such respect for you and the few growers I've found like you.... no nonsense growers, who understand plants and don't spin a web of mystique around cannabis. I can also say that I've been told on a few occasions that my own no nonsense approach is appreciated,.......


KISS principal. We're singing from the same sheet of music. 



> ANYHOOO! *Rant aside, I do have a question for you:* one I've already asked and you're already answered, but unfortunately I failed to bookmark the page!  That would be the title/author of the book you'd recommended to me, to brush up on botany. I'd stated that it doesn't need to be cannabis related, just a good basic botany reference book.


Well, Mel Franks Insiders guide fits the bill. It is an excellent pot book and general book about plant culture. It covers the basics we discuss here and high tech stuff too. No hype, earthy and concise. I have the 1982 edition. There's a damn good reason why there's a half mil in print/sold, but it's that damn good! http://www.redeyepress.com/htm/book3.htm

Off topic, perhaps someone can help. Page one is screwed up for some reason. It started with all photos deleted. Now, where there should be only 4 photos in the original post, there are 12 which conveys a confusing progression of thought, some don't even apply. I've also noted that editing privileges are not available anymore for recent posts. Are you guys experiencing the same thing? I wrote a senior mod and rolliup hoping for relief just now. If I can't clean up my threads/posts for the sake of conveying clear and corrected info, then there is no use for me here anymore.

Regards,
UB


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## Snak (Sep 26, 2009)

Quick observation here, Ben-

I noticed with my first grow that as my untopped plants grew, the number of blades per leaf increased as the got taller, I think I had one plant with 9 per leaf before it went into flower. However it seems that topping above the 2nd node seems to limit the number of blades per leaf to 5; I haven't seen any of my current topped plants (and I don't recall seeing my previous topped plant) grow more than 5 blades per leaf. It seems curious to me, I'm guessing there is some sort of botanical mechanic at work here that I don't know about?

To be honest, I don't know a damn thing about botany except what I've learned in this thread . That Mel Franks book would probably be a worthwhile purchase.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 27, 2009)

Snaks, were those seedlings or clones? If clones, that doesn't make sense. The number of leaves per leafset should remain constant.

The Mel Frank book is your shortcut to success.


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## born2killspam (Sep 27, 2009)

Stresses can alter the lobe number.. I've seen it in severe drought, 7-9 lobers dropped down to 3-5 lobes for a while, and seration of the margins was lessened.. Not all that different from the revegging alteration, but less intense..
That was indica dominant bagseed btw..


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## ganjman (Sep 28, 2009)

Indeed, i'd put the amounts of "fingers" down to stress - heat/light are the two big causes i've found. I once had a 4 ft skunk#1 that only ever had 3 blades per leaf because it was growin in a shaded area. Was still a female though and still harvested good.


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## Roland (Sep 28, 2009)

Snak said:


> Quick observation here, Ben-
> 
> I noticed with my first grow that as my untopped plants grew, the number of blades per leaf increased as the got taller, I think I had one plant with 9 per leaf before it went into flower. However it seems that topping above the 2nd node seems to limit the number of blades per leaf to 5; I haven't seen any of my current topped plants (and I don't recall seeing my previous topped plant) grow more than 5 blades per leaf. It seems curious to me, I'm guessing there is some sort of botanical mechanic at work here that I don't know about?
> 
> .


 
9 blades to a leafset is a function of several factors ... 

9 blades are more common during heavy vegging stage .. ( time )

optimum nutrition and ..........I think pot size ( seems to me from observation over the years)

nine blades are more common in strains leaning towards sativa dominant 

blade number seems to increase as stalk increases in size


the pictures below show eight plants from eight seeds ... one in paticular seeems more Sativa dominant ... six of the plants were topped for 4 or 6 main Cola's .. the most sativa dominant .. topped for six Kola's... it has seven blades / leaf .. mostly ... it vegged for six weeks after topping and is flowered about nine weeks at this point ....


Hello UB ......... Salute


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## Roland (Sep 28, 2009)

dive1 said:


> Hey Unkle Ben, Hello from a fellow Texan. Thank you for your fantastic thread and all the info you have shared with us.
> 
> My question is, I have a clone only cali strain(blue dream) and the stem nodes aren't parallel with each other. In other words they are not staggered. I've never really seen a pot plant grow like this in vegitive state. Back to my question, is there anyway to incorporate this technique with growth that doesn't have opposing nodes?
> 
> ...


 
*This was a clone .. topped at alternating nodes .....*


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## smithsutton (Sep 30, 2009)

hey there uncle ben .. been a while .. ahh i no whos pic (sig pic) that was from the old og days .. how the hell ya been benny .. 

ss ..


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## Jack in the Bud (Oct 1, 2009)

Uncle Ben,

I got a batch of potting soil made up last week using the guidlines you recommended several pages back in this thread. I ended up with around 80 gallons worth. Got it stored in 2 32 gallon plastic garbage cans and a 20 gallon plastic tote. Yesterday I shoved my hand down into one of the garbage cans full of it and could feel the warmth of it "working". It's been cool here at night so a lot of the moisture in it has condensed on the underside of the lid and has kept the top inch or so really wet. Strating to get some of the fuzzy stuff growing on the surface layer. 

I'm thinking this is a good thing, yes? Do I want to stir this "fungus" back in or leave the tops off the cans for a couple of days so the top layer dries out and no more of it forms?

I wasn't sure just how much you meant by a "big bag" of perlite and vermiculite so I ended up using a 5 gallon bucket full of each. I found 4 cf bags of each of those two things at one of my local nurseries ($25 for the perlite and $29 for the vermiculite) and have plenty of each left over for future mixes. Or I can always mix some more of it into this batch if you think it would be benefical. It kind of seems to me like I've got a good balance of those two in the mix. Yesterday I took a large Aloevera plant I had and broke it up into 5 other pots using this mix for potting soil. When I watered them in the soil sure seemed to drain thru real nice. Much better in fact than just straight (regular) MG potting soil does.

Followed your advice about the 4 cups of Alfalfa pellets and a squirt of soap dissolved into in a gallon of water (that mash went into the potting mix). I've been doing some reading up on that and I've got an Alfalfa Tea (1 cup of pellets in 5 gallons of water) brewing that I'm going to dose my regular house plants with just to see what the effect is. I bought a 50 lb. sack of them for $13 at a local feed store. I'm going to save back a 5 gallon buckets worth for future potting mixes and teas but plan on taking the rest of that sack of pellets and tilling it into the vegatable garden next spring before planting.

Per your advice I added 6 cups of blood meal, 3 cups of bone meal and 4 cups of Plantones Garden Lime (the label said it was derived from dolomitic sources) to this mix. Does this sound about the right amount of these things in 80 gallons of finished mix? Because I can still dump this mix back out on the floor and blend in some more of these ingredients if you think I may not have enough of any of them in there. Probably I should just quite fretting about it and use it as is, huh?

For the record here's exactly what went into the mix (besides what's described above)

3.8 cubic foot bale Sunshine Mix #2 (80% Sphagnum peat moss) ($25)

2 cubic foot bag regular Miracle Grow potting mix ($12)

1 cf bag EarthGro composted steer manure ($1.87)

1 cf bag EarthGro garden soil ($3.10)


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## Richie LxP (Oct 1, 2009)

Roland said:


> 9 blades to a leafset is a function of several factors ...
> 
> 9 blades are more common during heavy vegging stage .. ( time )
> 
> ...



A 9 finger Power Flower leaf. Its a 75%Indica-25%Sativa.


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## Roland (Oct 1, 2009)

Richie LxP said:


> A 9 finger Power Flower leaf. Its a 75%Indica-25%Sativa.


I see the indica influence in the blade shape .... was it topped ?


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## Richie LxP (Oct 1, 2009)

Roland said:


> I see the indica influence in the blade shape .... was it topped ?



No she wasnt, she is actuly quite small.

Not much taller than this. Here's a bud pic from a week ago. Its getting fairlly frosty now


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## Roland (Oct 1, 2009)

Richie LxP said:


> No she wasnt, she is actuly quite small.
> 
> Not much taller than this. Here's a bud pic from a week ago. Its getting fairlly frosty now


looks very healthy ......... I see seven blades in flowering stage .... more nine blades leaves in vegging ... it looks like .........


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## Richie LxP (Oct 1, 2009)

Roland said:


> looks very healthy ......... I see seven blades in flowering stage .... more nine blades leaves in vegging ... it looks like .........



Tho's big leaves in the back are from a super skunk.


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## Roland (Oct 1, 2009)

Richie LxP said:


> Tho's big leaves in the back are from a super skunk.


 

Beauties ........ !


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## c5rftw (Oct 1, 2009)

i just did a topping based on info i learned on this thread.. worked VERY well

just posted results https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/250160-topping-how.html

thanks ben


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 1, 2009)

c5rftw said:


> i just did a topping based on info i learned on this thread.. worked VERY well


aint no big thang


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## c5rftw (Oct 1, 2009)

yah it really isn't. just i feel for anyone that is "scared" to cut their babies, just have to get past that


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## FreeLeaf (Oct 1, 2009)

Very Nice Post Ben. Thanks for the info.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 3, 2009)

Thanks, and you're most welcome.

Folks that are apprehensive about cutting on their faves are usually noobs, and that's OK. That apprehension is to be expected from someone dealing with the unknown. What's funny though is some of the comments you hear - "it causes stress", "it will set your plant back a couple of weeks", etc.

Have fun,
UB


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## collieBudz (Oct 5, 2009)

nice job UB


This is a great thread, thanks a bunch.

But i do wonder (sorry if this has been answered, but ive spent a lot of time on RIU lately, and i couldnt be bothered) i know how threads are and only about 2% is really stuff i wanna read, so i thought i'd just ask,i noticed early on you referred to scrog, and it being a pain in the ass, would you say yields are the same or better topping for 4 colas than a scrog of the same plant size? or of course, less good? i only ask cause i dont mind to pull some branches through on a daily basis is not a problem for me, but if i can do this AND get same results without setting up all my screens, and being able to move stuff around easier..., i'd give it a go.. i was planning to do a 2plant scrog under each 1000w, and have them fill a 4x4 screen.. but if i can top those 2 and make 8 giant colas, and some regular sized one's below, maybe its better? 

cause im thinking most people scrog for even canopy so their light doesnt need to penetrate as much, but i think my 1000w will penetrate enough even without a scrog right?? so should i bother with the screens? i know in the end if i REALLY want to know what work's best i could try for myself and record my output's, but, im sure you must have done this research at some point with all your experience, and i trust you more than most of these 'pro' grower tips you find lolll

thanks a bunch dude, +rep


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## jzs147 (Oct 5, 2009)

where an when do you cut to get 4 colas any one got any pics?

sorry if that sounds dumb i did read the first few pages of the thread 
thought it would be easier to ask than read 104 pages

im not sure when you say cut at the 2nd true node what does this mean?


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 5, 2009)

collieBudz said:


> ..... i was planning to do a 2plant scrog under each 1000w, and have them fill a 4x4 screen.. but if i can top those 2 and make 8 giant colas, and some regular sized one's below, maybe its better?


 Your call. You'll need to try both to see for yourself. Experience is alot different than theory or believing anecdotal evidence.



> cause im thinking most people scrog for even canopy so their light doesnt need to penetrate as much, but i think my 1000w will penetrate enough even without a scrog right??


I've never had a problem using one 600HPS and one 400MH regarding light penetration. Of course I use side reflecting panels that can be adjusted as the garden's footprint expands and contracts.

SCROG - Be careful that you don't become a slave to your plants. 

I do double harvests - I cut the mature colas at a point where they transition from fat to wispy budsites, and then put the bottom of the plant back under the lights to further bulk up those wispy buds. Works great and can make a significant difference in your yields. Can't do that if you're like most who lose their lower leaves due to poor culture, flushing drills, etc.

Good luck,
UB


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## Roland (Oct 5, 2009)

jzs147 said:


> where an when do you cut to get 4 colas any one got any pics?
> 
> sorry if that sounds dumb i did read the first few pages of the thread
> thought it would be easier to ask than read 104 pages
> ...


Read the first *"few pages"* again

Hi ya Ben ... thought I'd throw these pic's in 

UB I was lookin thru some seed bank descriptions and thinking of ordering some seeds .... they said that one strain I was looking at ... Grapefruit I think .... they said ... " do not top this plant , as it doesn't respond well to topping " .... any thoughts ?


I've always topped my plants ... never had any noticeable prob's with any of 'em 


last pic is L .. untopped .... R topped for six Cola's


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## collieBudz (Oct 5, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Your call. You'll need to try both to see for yourself. Experience is alot different than theory or believing anecdotal evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thanks for the advice, is there like a height requirement? cause my nodes are extremely close together its only maybe 6.5 inches tall but as i count them, there are 6 nodes the cotyledon are gone so i counted the bottom bottom one as 1st, heres some pics even though its near impossible to tell.. you think its ready to top? the thing i love about this, is that i can check the sex out at the same time which is great, im gonna try topping my mother and then scroggin the clones i take from her, should be nice, that giant 4 cola plant on the 1st page, how tall did you let it get before you switched over?

and, if you dont mind, what light did you have that under? and how many of em to give u that one 10oz plant lol thats beautiful, truly is, i planned to double harvest anyway if i scrogged, i wasnt going to remove as much of the undergrowth as 'usual' and take the screen down and give them some more time, but this is just as good.. 

heresthe pics, i have 2 other one's going but this is like the monster of the 3 for sure.. over double the size of both, i screwed up early on with ph and they locked out, somehow this one didnt it thrived off my bad lovin' and now that ive dialed it in a little better, its really growing, i get a node a day almost.. the last pic is same plant only 8 days ago.. they were slow starters by all accounts though..


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## dababydroman (Oct 5, 2009)

u could top now and be fine


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## vertise (Oct 5, 2009)

nice info here


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## vertise (Oct 5, 2009)

so what kinda increase in yield is typical from topping.


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## tea tree (Oct 5, 2009)

I have a problem maybe someone has seen,

I do love this topping method and have had excellent results. I am also a fan now of cuttng all the other shoots off too to give as close to four lollipopped looking colas as I can and still have a tree!

Anyway, this time with two plants, a herijuana and a purple wreck, I topped and got the right design for four colas or tops to grow and I am in the process of cloning what I cut. That all worked.

However, the topped plants are now dying! I have no idea. I have fed b1 and stuff to them but to no avail. They are drying or shriveling up till all I got are stems sticking out of the soil. 

I have never seen this happen. The kitten may have nibbled but I dont knwo and dont see why this would kill these usually hardy plants. Any helpers. I am stumped I have some experience now and this is weird.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 5, 2009)

Roland said:


> Read the first *"few pages"* again
> 
> Hi ya Ben ... thought I'd throw these pic's in
> 
> ...


You have some serious leaf yellowing problems. Could be a root health issue, lack of N, don't know. Sup?



collieBudz said:


> thanks for the advice, is there like a height requirement? cause my nodes are extremely close together its only maybe 6.5 inches tall but as i count them, there are 6 nodes the cotyledon are gone so i counted the bottom bottom one as 1st, heres some pics even though its near impossible to tell.. you think its ready to top? the thing i love about this, is that i can check the sex out at the same time which is great, im gonna try topping my mother and then scroggin the clones i take from her, should be nice, that giant 4 cola plant on the 1st page, how tall did you let it get before you switched over?


You need to look at why your plants are stunted before worrying about topping. 

I had that avatar plant under a 250HPS from start to finish, with others.

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 5, 2009)

tea tree said:


> I have a problem maybe someone has seen,
> 
> However, the topped plants are now dying! I have no idea. I have fed b1 and stuff to them but to no avail. They are drying or shriveling up till all I got are stems sticking out of the soil.


Sounds like root rot.


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## collieBudz (Oct 5, 2009)

I've figured out the stunting thing, its not really stunted anymore, it was from the transplant to the 5gals, plus a little bit of over feeding, and and little bit of low ph, all leading to a lockout for a bit, but it got bad on the other one's this one just stopped growing, the other 2 got spotted and grayish.. but they have bounced back, but it's all good now i think its pretty average at least no? the difference in the last 9 days? i know they were real small up until then, but since seemed good to me... and i didnt have them under a 1000w the whol etime, around day 20 i went from a 32w shoplight fluro to the 1000w and thats when i transplanted etc so the first week under the big light im sure it was useless

but, as of now its fine i can top it? like i said i get a node a day past 2-3 days


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## Roland (Oct 5, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> You have some serious leaf yellowing problems. Could be a root health issue, lack of N, don't know. Sup?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## fanya (Oct 6, 2009)

Hi Ben, 

Thanks for this thread first of all. Great info, I've read most of it now.

From what I remember you said the best time to top is right at lights on when you are going to water so here is my question

Do I want to water with nutes or without nutes? I was thinking with nutes to help it recover faster but I'm just not sure.

My plants will be 14 days old tomorrow and should have 4 or 5 nodes when I top, I have given them 1 dose of 1/2 strength nutes 5 days ago (using Fox Farms trio) so far.

Thanks and happy growing!


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## thewinghunter (Oct 6, 2009)

I would love to try this... once my plants are big enuff, a lil scary tho chopping stuff off


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 6, 2009)

collieBudz said:


> I've figured out the stunting thing, its not really stunted anymore, it was from the transplant to the 5gals,


5 gallons? Expect it to never recover. Don't give your plants things they don't need. That will only work against you. Top if you wish.



fanya said:


> Hi Ben,
> 
> Thanks for this thread first of all. Great info, I've read most of it now.
> 
> From what I remember you said the best time to top is right at lights on when you are going to water so here is my question


I never said that. Time of day does not matter.



> Do I want to water with nutes or without nutes? I was thinking with nutes to help it recover faster but I'm just not sure.


Nothing changes. If your plant needs food, then provide it. Topping does not involve any changes in keeping a plant healthy and actively growing. 



> My plants will be 14 days old tomorrow and should have 4 or 5 nodes when I top, I have given them 1 dose of 1/2 strength nutes 5 days ago (using Fox Farms trio) so far.
> 
> Thanks and happy growing!


OK

Good luck,
UB


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## collieBudz (Oct 6, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> 5 gallons? Expect it to never recover. Don't give your plants things they don't need. That will only work against you. Top if you wish.
> 
> UB



I know i think i will go with 3gal next time, but, what do you mean they will never recover? what should i expect in terms of growth per day or week that would be considered 'normal'? cause to me it looks like it's doing good now, and what do you mean about giving them things they dont need? it didnt need 5gal but definitely needed to transplant from my little 8oz dixie cups.. so im not sure what you mean,...


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 7, 2009)

collieBudz said:


> I know i think i will go with 3gal next time, but, what do you mean they will never recover? what should i expect in terms of growth per day or week that would be considered 'normal'? cause to me it looks like it's doing good now, and what do you mean about giving them things they dont need? it didnt need 5gal but definitely needed to transplant from my little 8oz dixie cups.. so im not sure what you mean,...


https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html


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## FreeLeaf (Oct 8, 2009)

Thanks for taking the time to help everyone out UB. Going on what Collie was asking. I have 10 rooted clones arriving next week. 80i/20s I only have a 20sq ft area 8 feet high. I Can't take the plants over 5' tall. Can't decide wether to plant them in 5 gal from the start, plant them in 3 gal from the start and then transplant them into 5 gal halfway through or just use 3 gal the entire grow cycle. I'm shootin for 3 zips a plant in 120 days with 1000w MH then HPS. It sounded like you were saying transplanting should really be avoided. Suggestions?


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## collieBudz (Oct 9, 2009)

FreeLeaf said:


> Thanks for taking the time to help everyone out UB. Going on what Collie was asking. I have 10 rooted clones arriving next week. 80i/20s I only have a 20sq ft area 8 feet high. I Can't take the plants over 5' tall. Can't decide wether to plant them in 5 gal from the start, plant them in 3 gal from the start and then transplant them into 5 gal halfway through or just use 3 gal the entire grow cycle. I'm shootin for 3 zips a plant in 120 days with 1000w MH then HPS. It sounded like you were saying transplanting should really be avoided. Suggestions?



well, take it from me, cause this is what i'll be doing exactly next time


i would start in cups, 16-32oz, styrofoam or plastic as long as theyre not clear, if it doesnt have drainage holes make some, (if you want an easy non-soil way you can look up hempy collective and will find a lot of info on how to do it)

DO NOT transplant them too soon like i did, and if you do , at least not to a 5gal like i did.. then can easily grow up until 12in or so if not more in a 16-32oz party cup, so, once they get to be about that size id say give it a go at transplanting to a bigger pot, id only go 1-3 gal from my little bit of experience, 5gal would support like 9-10foot trees outdoors so its not necessary indoors... and dont feed them too often, at first youre gonna assume they need a lot of water and a lot of food, but its not really the case, and make sure you have some cal-mag to add as for some reason it seems to be the most common deficiency besides the big 3, aside from that, just let em do their thing it takes less long to recover from lets say, underwaterring, lakc of some nutes etc than it does from over nuting and etc etc, thats about what ive learned so far besides all the 'theory' i had before hand.. read up on whatever method you wanna employ and thats about it


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## FreeLeaf (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks for the imput Collie. It has been 10 years since I did a crop outdoors. This will be my first indoor HID. The one thing that I do remember from reading a lot on OG (RIP OG) was to start the nutes after a couple of weeks in the soil and then use 1/4 of the prescribed nutes. After 2- 3 feedings bump it up to 1/3 then 1/2 and finally 2/3rd's of nutes. My clones will be comming in small cups. Maybe I should put them in 1/2 gal containers and then in a few weeks transplant them into 3 gal containers.


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## FreeLeaf (Oct 9, 2009)

Also you need to adjust for the nutes contained in the new soil. I think this is where some people go wrong. They transplant into new soil chalked full of fresh nutes then they start feeding them a couple of days latter.


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## cappeeler09 (Oct 9, 2009)

alls i have to say is that is sick shit,can i do this with any strain because ive heard that some dont react to it,what strains wer these


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 9, 2009)

FreeLeaf said:


> Thanks for taking the time to help everyone out UB. Going on what Collie was asking. I have 10 rooted clones arriving next week. 80i/20s I only have a 20sq ft area 8 feet high. I Can't take the plants over 5' tall. Can't decide wether to plant them in 5 gal from the start, plant them in 3 gal from the start and then transplant them into 5 gal halfway through or just use 3 gal the entire grow cycle. I'm shootin for 3 zips a plant in 120 days with 1000w MH then HPS. It sounded like you were saying transplanting should really be avoided. Suggestions?


That is a personal decision based on many factors - heat, RH, plant size, etc. For me, germinating directly into a 16 oz styrocup, letting it bulk up with about 7 nodes and going to a 3 gallon pot to finish works. Or, germinate in a 1 gallon and finish in a 3 or 5 gallon. Doesn't really matter - you want to get to the point in whatever container you choose of getting a bit rootbound, with some root spin-out. That call is an art and comes with experience. You'll either be transplanting too soon or too late, I prefer too late because I can always score the rootball vertically to induce secondary root branching when I upcan. Transplanting before it's time into a large pot only adds insult to injury. Overwatering will be an issue, the soil structure will deterioate quicker due to a lack of quick wicking of moisture out of the medium by a robust root system, etc.



FreeLeaf said:


> After 2- 3 feedings bump it up to 1/3 then 1/2 and finally 2/3rd's of nutes. My clones will be comming in small cups. Maybe I should put them in 1/2 gal containers and then in a few weeks transplant them into 3 gal containers.


Sorry, but that's all baloney regarding such a black and white feeding drill. Might as well be following some frickin' AN retard chart designed for..... OK, I'll stop. 

No one has your plants, no one has your garden's profile, so no one can make that call. You base your plant's REQUIREMENTS on plant size, temps, rate of growth, original nutrient charge in the potting soil you chose, etc. I've seen plants here that could use a Tblsp./gallon of a 10-10-10 and just love it, others where it would burn the crap out of 'em. It's all relative to many factors. I have fed small seedlings with excellent results but that's because I knew it would do no harm, just increase their already robust growth. Go back to that link I gave on the Spin-out and check out the text from week one to week 3, note the plant measurements. That is a typical garden for me such that within 3 weeks I've got plant footprints 21" across, done with no chemical additions, just organics added to my custom blend.

Good luck,
UB


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## inquisitive (Oct 9, 2009)

collieBudz said:


> well, take it from me, cause this is what i'll be doing exactly next time
> 
> 
> i would start in cups, 16-32oz, styrofoam or plastic as long as theyre not clear, if it doesnt have drainage holes make some, (if you want an easy non-soil way you can look up hempy collective and will find a lot of info on how to do it)
> ...


Just did this a few days ago too, you speak with authority on that. Excellent advice.

+ reps for it!


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## collieBudz (Oct 10, 2009)

Hey UB,

wanna have a look at my work and tell me just how bad i screwed it up? loll

this plantwas at like 7 nodes, although you only see 1 node in the pic, its because a few days ago i tried to clone from the branches under it.. and wasnt sure now if it counts as the 2nd node or the 1st lol so i just topped it there, and i used the cutting to make like 7 clones...which im slightly hopeful about, my frist try at it surely wasn't a good one lol.. anywya, i just wanna know if this looks right to you? or did i just kill my baby lol.. umm, other than that, when cloning, i did everything i know like cuttin 45degree, removing all but top leaves, but, am i supposed to leave a fan leaf on each clone??? i hope not cause i been cutting them off just leaving the 2 newest one's on the top of the clone, im taking them at about 4inches long, and 3 nodes. that sound good? ill take some pics if they start to droop or anything, but heres the topped NL, look good?

a little before and after, the before is from 4 days ago.. or maybe 6 days ago lol cant count it looks like


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## collieBudz (Oct 10, 2009)

collieBudz said:


> Hey UB,
> 
> wanna have a look at my work and tell me just how bad i screwed it up? loll
> 
> ...



she's bleeding!! lol maybe i did kill her after all.. but seriously its spittin water outta where i topped


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## Roland (Oct 11, 2009)

collieBudz said:


> she's bleeding!! lol maybe i did kill her after all.. but seriously its spittin water outta where i topped


 
The "bleeding" will slow down and stop ..... that'll give you two main Cola's ... I leave just a little more on the main stem when I do it ... (top my plant's ).. and cut on an approximate 45 deg angle ... but I'll defer to U B just wanted to let u know .. your plant will be ok 


Plant below was topped after third node ... for six Cola's ...... next time ... I will top at same spot .. and remove bottom two stems leaving four Cola's
you can see (between the leaves ) where it was topped


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 11, 2009)

collieBudz said:


> Hey UB,
> 
> wanna have a look at my work and tell me just how bad i screwed it up? loll
> 
> this plantwas at like 7 nodes, although you only see 1 node in the pic, its because a few days ago i tried to clone from the branches under it.. and wasnt sure now if it counts as the 2nd node or the 1st lol so i just topped it there, and i used the cutting to make like 7 clones...which im slightly hopeful about, my frist try at it surely wasn't a good one lol.. anywya, i just wanna know if this looks right to you? or did i just kill my baby lol.. umm, other than that, when cloning, i did everything i know like cuttin 45degree, removing all but top leaves, but, am i supposed to leave a fan leaf on each clone??? i hope not cause i been cutting them off just leaving the 2 newest one's on the top of the clone, im taking them at about 4inches long, and 3 nodes. that sound good?


The fan leaves will be the source for carbos that will generate new tissue, roots. You only cut off leafsets to allow a few nodes to reside "underground" which will be your rooting zones. The plant can not make sufficient food for root output without sufficient leaf surface.

Just curious, what's with the 45* cutting drill? 

Point of topping looks good, but, that is one stunted plant. Have you inspected the root system? Is it getting sufficient N or are you doing the typical NPK drill of too much K? What is the NPK ratio of your food?

Also, looks like the stem has been invaded by pythium (damp-off). Why is it off colored (brown)? What's up with the small cup in a big pot?


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## collieBudz (Oct 13, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> The fan leaves will be the source for carbos that will generate new tissue, roots. You only cut off leafsets to allow a few nodes to reside "underground" which will be your rooting zones. The plant can not make sufficient food for root output without sufficient leaf surface.
> 
> Just curious, what's with the 45* cutting drill?
> 
> ...


here i'll give u a rundown a-z maybe you'll get it more...


oh, i forgot, this is the link i choose to use for cloning guide, seemed simple enough, if youhave anything to add, or discredit, let me know!

http://www.gardenscure.com/420/propagation/75812-cloning-guide-dummies.html


this is 1st run at growing, they were doing fine until i did all of the following at once :

i bogged (not transplant, i cut the bottom off the smaller cup, so as to limit the shock the plant gets.. apparently called 'bogging down') i bogged them, from 8oz cups to 5gal buckets lol (not knowing really what i was doing..)

and at the same time, i thought since the roots surely werent in the reservoir at the bottom of my 5gal yet, that they wouldnt get enough water unless i gave em plenty... so i was feeding once a day and watering once a day... at too low of a ph on top of that, so i burned them by other giving too much nutes, or i sent them into nute lockout because of the quantity and ph i was feeding... this was at day 20 from when the seedlings broke ground (prior to this, they were under a 32w 48in fluro daylight shoplight. where the growth was most likely pretty pitiful compared to what it shoulda been, so im sure that set me back. anyway, so same day istarted over feeding and i bogged to way too big of container, i also put them under a 1000w MH and room temps soared to 88-92 for afew days.. but the weather cooled off and its been about 2.5 weeks its a steady 75-78..

so thats the story of why theyre so stunted, i totally know what i did wrong from the nutes to the bucket to the temp to the light being too close etc etc.. will i grow a perfect plant next go cause i know these things? probly not, but will be a lot better off than i was this time..

as for the 45degree cut, every cloning guide, help, tips n tricks whatever you wish to call it, saysthat cutting the bottom of the cutting on a 45degree with promote roots to grow more easily.. i even make a tiny slit up the stemp like 3\4inch cause this apparently helps too (i have yet to succesfully clone, but ive only tried this one time so far.. and its been 4days, they dont look too good honestly but i dunno what they SHOULD look like either so i wont trust myself on that one.. im just giving them 10-14days and should root.. and no i dnopt have bubble cloner or anythin, i just put the cuttings in presoaked rw cubes and rooting gel + rooting excelerator and am hoping for the best..

the reason the stem is kind brown like that, is because 2days before topping, i tried cloning from the lower branches of the plant, and in one of my cuts i was a little clumsy and cut into main stem on the down slice, not like THROUGH it, just as if i was skinning the plant a bit, so i peeled off that little.. splinter of stem and it 'healed' that color.. so far anyway

as foor npk, im using lucas formula, id have to read the bottles but lights r off and they are in there so id have to wait until later to check, but like i said lucas formula, seems to be pretty well established as good feeding schedule.. is GH flora series, only the micro and bloom no grow formula.. and its a 1:2 ratio.. .

5ml per Gal of micro
10ml per gal of bloom

and slowly bump it up to 8ml micro - 16ml bloom per GAL when in flowering.. i also give them calmag with every other watering.. ( i mean watering, as in i do following schedule:

feed, water, water with calmag, feed, water, water with calmag.. etc

i just wanted to know if the topping was good , i know the rest isnt lol, its just these are trial plants, so i wanted to 'try' as much as i can on THESe one's, so as not to screw up my next crop.. and topping was something i really wanted to see how it goes... 

so far, in the 2 days since topping, each branch has formed 1 entire leaf set, and the next leafset is i dunno there like 1\3 normal size .. i dunno if thats bad or good growth, but it doesnt seem to have slowed that much from before, so that was my main goal, see if topping slows it down or not,i'd say not


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## Katatawnic (Oct 13, 2009)

collieBudz said:


> so thats the story of why theyre so stunted, i totally know what i did wrong from the nutes to the bucket to the temp to the light being too close etc etc.. will i grow a perfect plant next go cause i know these things? probly not, but will be a lot better off than i was this time..


Most often I see people *not* posting what they've done wrong in the forums. It can be awfully embarrassing... I know first hand.  Takes some guts to openly list the mistakes we made, doesn't it?


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 13, 2009)

colliebudz....with the Lucas formula crapola, cloning drills, etc. all I can say is "good luck".

Please forgive me, I just don't have time nor care to respond to what I consider "fringe" type growing.

The topping looks fine.

UB


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## collieBudz (Oct 13, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> colliebudz....with the Lucas formula crapola, cloning drills, etc. all I can say is "good luck".
> 
> Please forgive me, I just don't have time nor care to respond to what I consider "fringe" type growing.
> 
> ...


 i dont see why you got your panties in a bunch, all over this site 'reputable' people ADVOCATE lucas formula... VIRedd potroast and the list goes on and on, here and other forums, so i just took what i thought was good advice, and youre trying to make me out to be a mad scientist ? lol youre a weird dude, im sure you've been told, if not regularly, so i'll leave it at that in terms of you personally.. just so you know, a normal person would have more than likely replied something more like this :

I dont really believe in that formula as its only using 2 of 3 parts of a 3 part etc etc or whatever it is that is so out there to you, cause im not entirely sure..from what i read, the GROW formula of the 3part isnt needed because the micro possesses all the N you need..... 
micro 5-0-1
bloom 0-5-4

and apparently in the ration of 5ml and 10ml respectively, they are the 'proper' ratio needed, do i know this to be absolute fact? nope, im not a botanist or anything like that, otherwise i wouldnt be asking you sir, to bestowe on me youre plethora of knowledge..lol

and if it was the cloning, i mean, do me a favor, go search for cloning guide, cloning tips, cloning tricks, any of the above, and tell me if the person isn't suggesting cutting the stem off at 45degree angle, pretty freakin crazy idea huh? i know its outlandish, only a black magic evil dooer would even attempt such trickery, but thats what ive read to do to make it go smoother.. so guess what? i tried it! cause afterall , as stated at least 5-10 times, this is a TRIAL, right? .. and so you know, i also tried the 'old fashioned' way to see if one works better than the other, or hell, if they work at all... but it's cool buddy, i'll ask someone else for help, as youve by far been the least helpful.. have a good one


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## collieBudz (Oct 13, 2009)

ontop of that i took all that time to explain to you as best possible how and why they woudl be stunted, lol , and you dont have the time, what a clown, why not just say from the beginning to nevermind


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## Katatawnic (Oct 13, 2009)

I've not heard of Lucas formula. As far as the cloning, yes... every book, guide, tutorial, etc., I've come across says to cut the stem at a 45* angle and most say to snip the end vertically a bit. I do believe it's hogwash, however, only because I've been taking cuttings since I was about 7 or 8. (Not cannabis though! lol) And I never did those things. Just snipped where I wanted, and plopped the new cutting into the new soil. (Humidity domes do help though, so long as they are ventilated.)

I've read that cutting at a 45* angle helps to prevent the mother plant from getting infection at the wound site. But again, I personally find that to be hogwash. If everything is sanitary when doing these things, all should be just fine.

Unfortunately, as soon as one delves into growing cannabis, all these strange methods appear that, if we don't do just so, will doom us to unhappy plants, if not dead. There's way too much mystique placed on cannabis... as if it is nothing less than sheer miraculous magic, in the guise of a plant. It all can make one wonder how in the world it evolved on its own, before we came along and discovered its wonderful properties. 

Equally unfortunate is the *vast* variety of advice we find on forums for growing cannabis, given for any *one* area. It can all be so confusing as to which to follow, especially if one doesn't understand botany enough to know what simply has the most common sense.

If something is made out to be much more difficult or time consuming, etc., then most likely it's not necessary... if not straight out damaging. Keep on with your trial run, but try to keep this in mind when perusing sites like this one. To date, the only method I've found helpful that involves more time and/or work is LST (Low Stress Training, or tying down branches)... I wouldn't bother with it if I weren't constrained to a certain number of plants in order to keep myself and those who live with me out of jail (MMJ in my state). But aside from LST (of which I do much less now than I did a couple months ago), I just feed and water my plants as they need it. I leave the slave labor to those who have the time and physical capacity.


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## DoeEyed (Oct 13, 2009)

I just have to say, I am eternally grateful you posted this info, Uncle Ben. I tried FIMming before, and out of 23 plants, got maybe one right. I tried your topping method on all of my three week old Trainwreck (and a Moby Dick) - they responded within 24 hours, and six days later, you would think they grew that way natural. A pic of both after 24 hours and same plant six days later. Thanks a bunch!kiss-ass


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 14, 2009)

collieBudz, the topic of this thread is topping. I don't find it a problem for folks to go off a bit in my thread, hell I'm one of the worst. But I'm not here in this thread to teach plant basics, only offer tips or tweaks. Your plant is stunted which could be due to several factors, the Lucas formula I suspect being the main culprit. Also, I don't care if "everyone is doing it". Doesn't mean "it" is the best way, only proof that cannabis forums are full of lemmings. Sorry you got offended but "bogging" instead of practicing conventional upcanning methods and cutting a cutting at a 45* angle because "they say" it promotes rooting is just plain crap. If you can give me a valid cause/effect relationship based on science, not anecdotal evidence, I'll buy into it. If cannabis forum drills are not practiced by "normal" ag, horticultural professionals, nurserymen and such, I'm going to scoff at those practices. For instance, if sugar (or molasses) was so good for cannabis and other plant material, it would be sold as fertilizer.

As an aside, I doubt if the "Lucas" formula contains all 16 essential elements for excellent plant health.

We'll just call the following advice "tough love"  - get that damn thing out of that stupid bucket, get you some high quality potting soil, _carefully_ upcan it to a quart or one gallon pot (do not break up the rootball)...... bury the "trunk" up to the first leaf sets, give it good light, temps 85/60F day/night, only water when the pot feels light, give it a high N food (30-10-10) available from Walmart and/or add blood meal to the mix and grow some pot!



DoeEyed said:


> I just have to say, I am eternally grateful you posted this info, Uncle Ben. I tried FIMming before, and out of 23 plants, got maybe one right.


That's why it's been nicknamed "Fuck I Missed". 



> I tried your topping method on my three week old Trainwreck - they responded within 24 hours, and six days later, you would think they grew that way natural. A pic of both of those. Thanks a bunch!kiss-ass


Nice job! Now wasn't that nice and simple? 

Man, could I show you some Trainwreck. I find uploading pix a PITA but I'll try it again.

Collie, open the first photo please. Those plants are just one week old from the point in time they broke the soil's surface. At 2 weeks old garden is easily double that. Yes, I do have pix. 

Second shot is a nice shot showing the 4 main cola output on a cross me and my buddy "Di" did. I sent him some C99 pollen from an excellent C99 F1 male, he did the dirty deed with some Vietnam Dalat ladies he snuck outta da jungles of Dalat Vietnam. 

Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 14, 2009)

Cross of TrainwreckXSweettooth 42 days into flowering. Notice the dark green leaves. That's what you should be aiming for ladies and gents - abundant medium to dark green leaves.







That's what produces rock hard, fat colas (see pix #2, 3, 4)

Grow hard,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 14, 2009)

What the hell, same garden, 2 weeks old. Notice topped plant in background with fairly large, new, 4 main colas. Some of the plant spreads are already around 14" (35 cm) or so across.


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## DoeEyed (Oct 14, 2009)

Wow, those look amazing! I hope mine turn out even _half_ that well. No need to ask if they smoked well...


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 14, 2009)

Thanks. Growing is all about understanding what makes a plant tick and using tweaks as required. 

You know, I have put together a ditty of my tweaks/tips, but unless I can edit such a thread in the future, I'm not gonna bother.


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## DoeEyed (Oct 14, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Thanks. Growing is all about understanding what makes a plant tick and using tweaks as required.
> 
> You know, I have put together a ditty of my tweaks/tips, but unless I can edit such a thread in the future, I'm not gonna bother.


 That would be great, I hope you decide to do it! I'm curious, sorry if it's already here somewhere, what nutes do you use for flowering? I seem to do ok with the vegging - but thus far, not so good flowering. But all I have right now for flowering nutes is MG Bloom Booster, and either it's crap, or I'm useing it wrong. What do you recommend?


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 14, 2009)

DoeEyed said:


> That would be great, I hope you decide to do it! I'm curious, sorry if it's already here somewhere, what nutes do you use for flowering? I seem to do ok with the vegging - but thus far, not so good flowering. But all I have right now for flowering nutes is MG Bloom Booster, and either it's crap, or I'm useing it wrong. What do you recommend?


I use whatever foods I think will support leaf health and retention. Could be a 30-10-10, could be a 10-30-20. Depends....

The Bloom foods industry is all about the money - labels, hype, etc. Only you can decide thru experience if a 30-5-20 is enough P to support flowering, the flowering response being photoperiod initiated. It's the leaves that provide food for bud production, not us.

Think outside of the box,
Tio


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## DoeEyed (Oct 14, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I use whatever foods I think will support leaf health and retention. Could be a 30-10-10, could be a 10-30-20. Depends....
> 
> The Bloom foods industry is all about the money - labels, hype, etc. Only you can decide thru experience if a 30-5-20 is enough P to support flowering, the flowering response being photoperiod initiated. It's the leaves that provide food for bud production, not us.
> 
> ...


Wow, now you've got me thinking... lol seriously, all the reading I've done over the past four months, and boy I mean a LOT, and what you just said never once occurred to me. Thanks.


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## Dr.RR (Oct 14, 2009)

I've got a question and I apologize in advance if it's been asked, but I did read through the first 15 pages before deciding to ask!

How exactly do you cut the stem? I am planning on cutting above the second node for 4 new colas. Do you just take a razor blade and cut it? Do you cut at an angle? Do you pinch first and then cut?

This has been one of the best threads I've read here to date. Appreciate the time you put into this Uncle Ben.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 15, 2009)

DoeEyed said:


> Wow, now you've got me thinking... lol seriously, all the reading I've done over the past four months, and boy I mean a LOT, and what you just said never once occurred to me. Thanks.


Glad that helped. Folks just seem to follow along rather than asking "why".



Dr.RR said:


> I've got a question and I apologize in advance if it's been asked, but I did read through the first 15 pages before deciding to ask!
> 
> How exactly do you cut the stem? I am planning on cutting above the second node for 4 new colas. Do you just take a razor blade and cut it? Do you cut at an angle? Do you pinch first and then cut?


If you have nails, use your thumbnail and index finger and just pinch the sucker off, that's what I do....... or, if you're anal and believe that only a half waning moon with Jupiter lined up with Mars at the 38 parallel will do, then, do it. Gotta be at a 48.75 angle using your Dad's Winchester buckknife of course.

Really, doesn't matter. Just leave enough stem above the node to callous over. 1/2" is fine. I posted photos of freshly pinched/cut plants yesterday and on the first page. 

Glad you like the thread.

Tio


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## Dr.RR (Oct 15, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Glad that helped. Folks just seem to follow along rather than asking "why".
> 
> If you have nails, use your thumbnail and index finger and just pinch the sucker off, that's what I do....... or, if you're anal and believe that only a half waning moon with Jupiter lined up with Mars at the 38 parallel will do, then, do it. Gotta be at a 48.75 angle using your Dad's Winchester buckknife of course.
> 
> ...


Lol, thanks for replying to my question. I like your style man, sarcasm is always good!  So just to clarify, it does not matter if the cut is at a 45* angle correct?


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## DoeEyed (Oct 15, 2009)

Dr.RR said:


> Lol, thanks for replying to my question. I like your style man, sarcasm is always good!  So just to clarify, it does not matter if the cut is at a 45* angle correct?


 lol He's just kidding - I snipped mine with a small hair cutting scissors, no biggie - I would add to be careful in there though, too easy to snip something you don't want to. I accidently snipped part of a small fan leaf and part of another stem, so yeah - just take your time. They came out fine anyway - but it did slow growth on the two areas I snipped without meaning to.


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## c5rftw (Oct 15, 2009)

here's two i just topped, the first was topped 12 days ago and the other one was done 4 days ago. it takes the plant about 4-7 days before they really start shooting up..


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## Hassan (Oct 15, 2009)

thanks a lot for your simple and straightforward methods. Will be putting this to use asap


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## doogleef (Oct 15, 2009)

Lucas formula is not an issue causing any problems. I promise u that. It works for millions of growers all over the world it will work for you too. 5/10 lucas is for FLURO. If you are using HID lighting it should be 8/16 always. 

Sorry to get off topic but I;m a big proponent of Lucas and see no reason to believe that is causing any issues.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 15, 2009)

DoeEyed said:


> lol He's just kidding - I snipped mine with a small hair cutting scissors, no biggie -


That'll work.


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## Roland (Oct 15, 2009)

Hi ya' Ben .. just saw the reference's to you and Microkote method in Jorge's new book ... nice to know you are receiving the recognition for your knowledge ... SALUTE


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## woolypudding69 (Oct 16, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's the leaves that provide food for bud production, not us.


Just curious about this statement. Does light need to get to the buds to get them to grow well, or is it more important for there to be more light on the leaves? Meaning, will thinning out my plant to increase light to the bud sites increase my yield or should I just leave my leaves alone?


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## collieBudz (Oct 16, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Glad that helped. Folks just seem to follow along rather than asking "why".
> 
> If you have nails, use your thumbnail and index finger and just pinch the sucker off, that's what I do....... or, if you're anal and believe that only a half waning moon with Jupiter lined up with Mars at the 38 parallel will do, then, do it. Gotta be at a 48.75 angle using your Dad's Winchester buckknife of course.
> 
> ...


i won't even bother


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## doogleef (Oct 16, 2009)

the only point to the 45 degree angle is to help expose a little more of the cut surface where roots develop first. The theory is that it aids in root development. I've found my best results (5-7 days with no powders, gels, or domes) come from not only cutting it at an angle but also scoring the stem (light slices into the skin) vertically about 1/8" up from the cut.

You probably do fine with your fingers but I feel better with nice clean blades. Lots of fungal spores and bacteria under human nails.


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## Katatawnic (Oct 16, 2009)

doogleef said:


> You probably do fine with your fingers but I feel better with nice clean blades. Lots of fungal spores and bacteria under human nails.


I use a nail scrubber brush when I wash my hands. I can't stand the thought of there being nasties under my nails, so they always get a good scrubbing. (What can I say? I was raised by lots of nurses! lol) And of course I always thoroughly wash my hands before touching my plants.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 16, 2009)

Roland said:


> Hi ya' Ben .. just saw the reference's to you and Microkote method in Jorge's new book ... nice to know you are receiving the recognition for your knowledge ... SALUTE


Actually Jorge got it wrong regarding the action. I used Griffin's Spin-Out, a copper hydroxide imbedded paint. Jorge was nice enough to autograph a book before release and mail it to me free gratis. His chapter on lighting is excellent, yes?



woolypudding69 said:


> Just curious about this statement. Does light need to get to the buds to get them to grow well, or is it more important for there to be more light on the leaves? Meaning, will thinning out my plant to increase light to the bud sites increase my yield or should I just leave my leaves alone?


I'm in the camp that an apple ripens under shaded leaves, that it is that the leaves provide carbos for production. Same goes with cannabis. Why do you think those solar collectors are so large (fan leaves)? More leaves you remove, the more you decrease production. Simple botany.



doogleef said:


> the only point to the 45 degree angle is to help expose a little more of the cut surface where roots develop first.


Roots are ALWAYS generated first at the nodes, because that is where dormant bud sites reside that will be the most active, break first. Reason why I recommend folks treat and bury at least 2 nodes for better rooting opportunities. The 45* cut is another cannabis forum myth, it has no real world value. 

UB


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## tip top toker (Oct 16, 2009)

Cheers Uncle Ben, after reading this, it couldn't have been clearer


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## woolypudding69 (Oct 16, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'm in the camp that an apple ripens under shaded leaves, that it is that the leaves provide carbos for production. Same goes with cannabis. Why do you think those solar collectors are so large (fan leaves)? More leaves you remove, the more you decrease production. Simple botany.


Thanks again for some damn good input! It made sense to me, but then you look around and you see all these guys thinning the hell out of their plants and its like, wtf? lol. Thanks for confirming what made the most sense to me!


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## Roland (Oct 16, 2009)

Oooops ... my error on pg. 59 of Jorge's book ..it does say .... " ..... Griffin's Spin Out ..................................................... " 

Yeah ... the lighting section does say .. just about everything u need to know !!


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 16, 2009)

woolypudding69 said:


> Thanks again for some damn good input! It made sense to me, but then you look around and you see all these guys thinning the hell out of their plants and its like, wtf? lol.


"A thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong."


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 16, 2009)

tip top toker said:


> Cheers Uncle Ben, after reading this, it couldn't have been clearer


Lookin' tip top to me!

Keep those leaves green,
UB


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## FreeLeaf (Oct 17, 2009)

Those are sweet pics UB. Well my Clones arrived today unannounced. It was a mad scramble to finish the room before the sun went down. 
Check out these fat little girls. 
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/257501-who-cut-cheese.html#post3248439


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 17, 2009)

FreeLeaf said:


> Those are sweet pics UB. Well my Clones arrived today unannounced. It was a mad scramble to finish the room before the sun went down.
> Check out these fat little girls.
> https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/257501-who-cut-cheese.html#post3248439


Will do....

Love the thread title


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## bloatedcraig (Oct 17, 2009)

Alright uncle ben, if i take a pictures of the girls have you got facilities to mark on the picture where to cut. I won't to do it myself but have not got the ball's.

Love the thread and explanation about the dispersment of the homones to the rest of the plant.


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## tip top toker (Oct 17, 2009)

post a clear picture and i'm sure someone will be able to help you


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## fanya (Oct 17, 2009)

Hi Uncle Ben.

I just wanted to say thank you and figured the best way to do that was to post pictures of the results. 

I'd say that it has gone very well so far but would love any feedback.

Also how much water do you generally give your plants? I've been feeding 24oz each plant every 2 days and that seems to be drying out by the end of day 1 1/2 so I bumped it to 32 oz per plant today. 

Also indoors how long do you typically veg? I'm on day 24 with day 1 being the day they poked up from the ground and can't decide when I should switch the lights, although i did go from 20/4 to 18/6 today.

But once again thanks for everything!

10 days grow time between topping and current pictures

Thank again Ben! 

Picture 1: group shot before day 14
picture 2: group shot after day 14
picture 3: indica after day 14
picture 4: sativa after day 14
picture 5: indica day 24
picture 6: sativa1 day 24
picture 7: sativa2 day 24
picture 8: sativa3 day 24


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## fanya (Oct 17, 2009)

bloatedcraig said:


> Alright uncle ben, if i take a pictures of the girls have you got facilities to mark on the picture where to cut. I won't to do it myself but have not got the ball's.
> 
> Love the thread and explanation about the dispersment of the homones to the rest of the plant.


post a picture and I'll put a red line on where I cut. Also if you look at my picture you should be able to tell.

GL


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## wonderblunder (Oct 17, 2009)

Nice thread good info, nice pics.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 17, 2009)

fanya said:


> Hi Uncle Ben.
> 
> I just wanted to say thank you and figured the best way to do that was to post pictures of the results.


Nice job!



> I'd say that it has gone very well so far but would love any feedback.
> 
> Also how much water do you generally give your plants?


Whatever they require, which can be 2 quarts per day per plant.



> Also indoors how long do you typically veg?


3-4 weeks.



> I'm on day 24 with day 1 being the day they poked up from the ground and can't decide when I should switch the lights, although i did go from 20/4 to 18/6 today.
> 
> But once again thanks for everything!


You're welcome, and thanks for playing along and sharing!

UB


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## josh b (Oct 18, 2009)

uve just made my plants better thanks man


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 18, 2009)

josh b said:


> uve just made my plants better thanks man


Glad to help fellers ~


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## josh b (Oct 18, 2009)

sorry if this is annoying but erm would it be possible for anyone to show me a piccy of a young plant being topped?
i want to top my plant early so it can grow more bush and have more colas also does putting in a cage on top of them force em to grrow bushier and not so tall? 

also i like this topping guide very helpfull and will be using it soon i hope


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 19, 2009)

josh b said:


> sorry if this is annoying but erm would it be possible for anyone to show me a piccy of a young plant being topped?
> i want to top my plant early so it can grow more bush and have more colas also does putting in a cage on top of them force em to grrow bushier and not so tall?
> 
> also i like this topping guide very helpfull and will be using it soon i hope


Sorry, the puppy chewed up my video camera lens. 

No, a cage only acts as a support. Use it if ya got it.

UB


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## Katatawnic (Oct 19, 2009)

I figured he was asking about a SCROG screen.


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## lawhyno (Oct 19, 2009)

Hi UB. Thanks for the post. I am a noob and am desperately trying to understand. Is there any way you can give me a picture of the plant right before you make the cut and right after? I have never studied botany so your terminology flies way over my head. 
I am looking at my plant and I am trying to understand where the 2nd true node is. What is a cotyledon? Is there any way you can explain this easier or link me to a more visual description? 
Thanks UB... sorry for the ignorance.


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## DoeEyed (Oct 19, 2009)

lawhyno said:


> Hi UB. Thanks for the post. I am a noob and am desperately trying to understand. Is there any way you can give me a picture of the plant right before you make the cut and right after? I have never studied botany so your terminology flies way over my head.
> I am looking at my plant and I am trying to understand where the 2nd true node is. What is a cotyledon? Is there any way you can explain this easier or link me to a more visual description?
> Thanks UB... sorry for the ignorance.


 Everyone gotta learn somewhere, right? Ok, well the cotyldons are those very first, rounded, not jagged, leaves that come out of the seed. A node is the place where the leaf stems join the main stalk - they are in pairs at first, and later, alternating. So - don't count that very first single bladed leaf, go above it, and count two nodes - two leaf sets. Cut above there - the main stem. Here's one of mine - before cutting, and a day later.


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## Hassan (Oct 19, 2009)

Could you please explain what you mean by pinching above the second true node?

Na I'm just kidding lol. I know I already said thanks but just had to say I finally finished reading the whole thread and the information provided by UB and borntokillspam is an incredible contribution to this forum. I've learned so much more than just the topping method and my mindset about growing has completely changed. I can't thank the both of you enough. Should be required reading for new growers, fuck the bullshit


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## DoeEyed (Oct 19, 2009)

Hassan said:


> Should be required reading for new growers, fuck the bullshit


 lol I second that.


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## fanya (Oct 19, 2009)

lawhyno said:


> Hi UB. Thanks for the post. I am a noob and am desperately trying to understand. Is there any way you can give me a picture of the plant right before you make the cut and right after? I have never studied botany so your terminology flies way over my head.
> I am looking at my plant and I am trying to understand where the 2nd true node is. What is a cotyledon? Is there any way you can explain this easier or link me to a more visual description?
> Thanks UB... sorry for the ignorance.


If you look at my pictures in post 1099 (which is only a few above this one) you should be able to see pretty clearly where you should top.

Although I didn't wait for 5 nodes to appear, I did mine at like 3-4 so they are smaller than some.

Good luck.


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## milowerx96 (Oct 19, 2009)

I did not read the whole thread. I got tired after page 25 or so. I top more than once. I usually top at the 5th to 8th node. Then when my growth tips have grown 2 nodes I top them. If I am outside I do it again. I also trim BIG fan leaves that block light to new growth tips. I know someone will bitch about that part. I don't care. I end up with lots of big ass tops and that's what I really care about. Big fan of the topping.


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## Mr.Oasis (Oct 19, 2009)

i just began my 2nd grow and have topped all my prospects as per the method mentioned early on in this thread, i messed up on one i topped above the 3rd node as opposed the the second, it has 6 tops growing pretty evenly tho (all bagseed but this one def sat dom)

my question is like you're saying, topping those growths, would those 6 tops i have i suppose give me 12 tops?? Given plenty of time to grow im sure its an excellent yield, how about the potency though, is it affected with having spread its growth across 12 tops instead of say 1, 2, 4...etc ???


ps milo if thats just a single plant there in the middle that is pretty remarkable indeed


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## Roland (Oct 19, 2009)

milowerx96 said:


> I end up with lots of big ass tops and that's what I really care about. Big fan of the topping.


nice !!

you can see the single /branched trunk a the bottom of second photo.

good sun + good soil .. excellent !


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## milowerx96 (Oct 19, 2009)

That is one plant tied up there. It's a Dutch Queen Not sure of the yield because it got mixed up with the rest but it was pretty nice. So ya if you let the new growth tips grow out and top and spread them you will end up with a shit load of tops. I usualy do a second topping when the growing branches have 2 or 3 nodes on them too. This technique works best if you have a long veg cycle. You can do this a lot. Indoors I usually veg 60 days then flower 60. I like strains that flower in 60 days or less for this reason. It lets you run flip flop rooms.



Mr.Oasis said:


> i just began my 2nd grow and have topped all my prospects as per the method mentioned early on in this thread, i messed up on one i topped above the 3rd node as opposed the the second, it has 6 tops growing pretty evenly tho (all bagseed but this one def sat dom)
> 
> my question is like you're saying, topping those growths, would those 6 tops i have i suppose give me 12 tops?? Given plenty of time to grow im sure its an excellent yield, how about the potency though, is it affected with having spread its growth across 12 tops instead of say 1, 2, 4...etc ???
> 
> ...


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## fanya (Oct 19, 2009)

milowerx96 said:


> I did not read the whole thread. I got tired after page 25 or so. I top more than once. I usually top at the 5th to 8th node. Then when my growth tips have grown 2 nodes I top them. If I am outside I do it again. I also trim BIG fan leaves that block light to new growth tips. I know someone will bitch about that part. I don't care. I end up with lots of big ass tops and that's what I really care about. Big fan of the topping.


+rep, that shit is sick.

I was going to top a 2nd time but figured I would run out space, which is going to be an issue as it is I believe.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 19, 2009)

DoeEyed said:


> Everyone gotta learn somewhere, right? Ok, well the cotyldons are those very first, rounded, not jagged, leaves that come out of the seed. A node is the place where the leaf stems join the main stalk - they are in pairs at first, and later, alternating. So - don't count that very first single bladed leaf, go above it, and count two nodes - two leaf sets. Cut above there - the main stem. Here's one of mine - before cutting, and a day later.


Well done.



Hassan said:


> Could you please explain what you mean by pinching above the second true node?


Well, after a nite of eatin' beans and tortillas and shootin' tequila shots, I jest sit there on my throne, contemplate the day's work that lies before me and lo and behold, the place to pinch mah loaf becomes clear.

I always shoos the "reel one".


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 20, 2009)

Mr.Oasis said:


> i just began my 2nd grow and have topped all my prospects as per the method mentioned early on in this thread, i messed up on one i topped above the 3rd node as opposed the the second, it has 6 tops growing pretty evenly tho (all bagseed but this one def sat dom)
> 
> my question is like you're saying, topping those growths, would those 6 tops i have i suppose give me 12 tops?? Given plenty of time to grow im sure its an excellent yield, how about the potency though, is it affected with having spread its growth across 12 tops instead of say 1, 2, 4...etc ???
> 
> ...


This thread is about tricking the plant into producing 4 central leaders aka "main colas", instead of the usual one. You can top all you want, anywhere you want and you'll get additional output, but, you won't get 4 main colas. There is a difference. Choosing your training method is all about creating a certain plant structure, plant profile, that suits you best.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 20, 2009)

Here's an outdoor, autoflowering sativa topped for 4 main colas. It was grown in a Griffin's Spin-out treated 5 gallon pot.

*Pinched and recently upcanned.

* 






*....about 3 weeks later showing nice development of 4 central leaders (main colas). *






*
Close up of 2 of the colas heavy with bud, laying over from the weight. *





*

Plant close to harvest. Colas are so heavy even staking isn't holding them up. They are prostrate with buds growing vertically.

*


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## collieBudz (Oct 20, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> This thread is about tricking the plant into producing 4 central leaders aka "main colas", instead of the usual one. You can top all you want, anywhere you want and you'll get additional output, but, you won't get 4 main colas. There is a difference. Choosing your training method is all about creating a certain plant structure, plant profile, that suits you best.
> 
> UB



i msure you're gonna tell me it's still stunted, but what the hell, this is 8 days after topping, ill put the 2 pics, does this even appear to be respectable growth or is still majorly stunted? ive started some more seeds anywa.. andf cloning, drills or no drills, apparently i suck ass cause im 0 for 8, do i really need the dome or not, one of those things people say and other say dont..


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 20, 2009)

collieBudz said:


> i msure you're gonna tell me it's still stunted, but what the hell, this is 8 days after topping, ill put the 2 pics, does this even appear to be respectable growth or is still majorly stunted? ive started some more seeds anywa.. andf cloning, drills or no drills, apparently i suck ass cause im 0 for 8, do i really need the dome or not, one of those things people say and other say dont..


I think you're doing fine. I also gave you my advice and some detailed cultural tips. 

Dome for what purpose? 

UB


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## collieBudz (Oct 20, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I think you're doing fine. I also gave you my advice and some detailed cultural tips.
> 
> Dome for what purpose?
> 
> UB


to keep up the RH? or is that another myth, my room rh is about 35-45 usually is that enough?


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 20, 2009)

collieBudz said:


> to keep up the RH? or is that another myth, my room rh is about 35-45 usually is that enough?


That's fine for the RH. Now, if your root system is the pits, then you need to find out why. A dome will not do your plants any good and can provide a breeding ground for fungi. I suspect that the person who is recommending you use a dome is not a very good grower, doesn't understand botany, the function of plant parts (roots).......


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## Katatawnic (Oct 20, 2009)

UB, he's referring to a dome for rooting cuttings, not a plant that already has roots.


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## collieBudz (Oct 20, 2009)

Katatawnic said:


> UB, he's referring to a dome for rooting cuttings, not a plant that already has roots.



yep, lol, i think i read that he was a little on the drunk side we'll call it cobwebs from yesterday tequila can be dangerous, but yes i mean for cloning.. should i really use a dome or not? if so, how many days and do i gradually try to make it less RH so as to not shock the leaves with the humidity difference? or is that bs too?


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## Katatawnic (Oct 20, 2009)

I use domes for cloning. Just clear plastic cups with ventilation holes so they don't suffocate; you want the RH to stay up, but still want them to breathe.  If I leave the dome off for more than, say, five or ten minutes and the clone doesn't droop or wilt, etc., then I know it'll be fine to just leave it off from then on. I've never gradually removed domes. They'll let you know when they don't like the dome removed for long.  Cloning can be done without humidity domes, and I've successfully done it both ways. But they do help when your RH may not consistently remain higher. From what I remember (it's been years since I've really read up on cloning), the dome helps the cutting to focus more energy on developing new roots. Could be an old wive's tale, but I personally like using them.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 20, 2009)

Katatawnic said:


> UB, he's referring to a dome for rooting cuttings, not a plant that already has roots.


Collie, learn what makes a plant tick or give it up. This thread is about hormonal processes, not Gardening 101.

Salud,
UB


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## DaveCoulier (Oct 20, 2009)

This has been a great thread UB. Ill be trying this out in a couple of weeks if my babies continue growing well. I have to say you have the patience of a saint. I dont know how you can answer the same question repeatedly to lazy bums who only read the last page of the thread instead of reading the first few pages. They must be some type of foreigners who read backwards or some shit


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## Snak (Oct 21, 2009)

collie just start your own thread already man.

You clearly need a lot of help learning how to grow, and it should be pretty clear by now that this is NOT THE THREAD for learning how to grow marijuana. 

This whole damn website is up for you to learn about stuff like domes and transplants, use it and learn. It's not polite or practical to inject basic beginner's questions into a thread dedicated to a totally different discussion.

Uncle Ben has helped out hundreds of members here- what have YOU done? And you have the balls to call him a fucking idiot?

Me thinks you need to chill out and grow your plant. Do your own homework, don't get mad at someone on the interwebs because they didn't hold your hand through your grow.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 21, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> This has been a great thread UB. Ill be trying this out in a couple of weeks if my babies continue growing well.


Glad you like it. "My" training method aint no big thang. My main focus is to teach you guys something about hormonal processess interjecting cause/effect, plant parts, etc. By empowering you with knowledge so you can make the right choices you will become a better grower and be able to sift thru the mountain of hype. Like in life, growing is all about facts, not feelings.



> I have to say you have the patience of a saint. I dont know how you can answer the same question repeatedly to lazy bums who only read the last page of the thread instead of reading the first few pages. They must be some type of foreigners who read backwards or some shit


Thanks, and can you believe I've been doing this for about 14 years! I started a nice draft of my tips and tweaks but without the authority to edit the original thread post (for correcting/improving content) I'm not going to bother. I have friends who come over and marvel at the speed and health of most of my plant material and ask "how did you do that?" Good example is recent planting of olive trees. I gave one to a friend, we both planted at the same time and mine are now twice as big and twice as bulked up. It's all about the tweaks.



Snak said:


> collie just start your own thread already man.


Thanks. The time is _ripe_ for this little ditty, hah!  I doubt if this guy will get it about posting etiquette, stickies, etc. This ought to be a mandatory watch before being able to post or start a new thread.

*Posting and you:*
http://www.starterupsteve.com/swf/posting.html?

Enjoy,
UB


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## nikk (Oct 21, 2009)

tio,usted hablas mucho espanol,tu eres hispano?


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 21, 2009)

nikk said:


> tio,usted hablas mucho espanol,tu eres hispano?


No soy latino, jest a redneck gringo who lived in taco land (south Texas) far too long. 

Tio Bendejo


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## nikk (Oct 21, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> No soy latino, jest a redneck gringo who lived in taco land (south Texas) far too long.
> 
> Tio Bendejo


oh,its all love brother,i still consider you the best uncle there is,and i am afro Caribbean,con mucho respecto-tu sobrino nikk


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 21, 2009)

nikk said:


> oh,its all love brother,i still consider you the best uncle there is,and i am afro Caribbean,con mucho respecto-tu sobrino nikk


Ahhhhh, buenos suertes mi hito!


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## nikk (Oct 21, 2009)

collieBudz said:


> removed


hey collie,you dont have to bounce bro,i understand that you have questions and i pretty much believe that youve read almost every thread there is and that you just want to grow without leaving anything out,i do the same thing,im the type that has to buy everything ahead of time so that i dont fuck up down the line,dont worry about noone on this site,uncle ben is a legend on topping(i think he invented it to tell the truth)so his wisdom goes a long way,but as for you other questions you should check out a few other growers on here to,they started threads(not using hempy buckets,but all techniques are applicable)as well on many subjects,my favorite folks to follow are roseman(cfl and dwc king),m-blaze(fim champion)and a few other(they're names escape me)but the point is dont get discouraged


----------



## nikk (Oct 21, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Ahhhhh, buenos suertes mi hito!


igualmente,mi pana


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## milowerx96 (Oct 21, 2009)

Wow I guess he told you guys hu? You were a little rough on the newb


----------



## Hassan (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm pretty what UB said was to learn about plants in general, as in all plants, from sources outside cannabis forums. You won't find the false info if you look to sources outside of cannabis forums. In other words, forget about the other threads here and learn about growing plants and then apply that knowledge. 

Funny how people get so pissed about something when not even taking a moment to think about and understand what they are being told


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## Brick Top (Oct 21, 2009)

collieBudz said:


> psst, are you fucking stupid too? this guy has been discrediting EVERYTHING i read elsewhere,


 
I have no idea what else you have read but *Uncle Ben relies heavily on something called botanical science.* 

*That is a collection of proven botanical facts.* 

Very few people on the various sites like this ever come close to doing the same so most of what you may read, if it is found on sites like this, is most definitely at least to some degree questionable. 
 



Considering all you said that then followed I find the following quote of yours to be so far beyond just ironically hilarious as to be farther than you presently are from galactic central point. *"UB, learn people skills, dipshit."*
 





> removed


Now precisely what was that tip you gave Uncle Ben, wasn&#8217;t it something about working on people skills? 
&#12288;
You should seriously consider taking a very in depth crash course in people skills because based on all you said above I tend to doubt that you even know what the term means.


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## nikk (Oct 21, 2009)

collieBudz said:


> removed


ay collie,whats up bro,just ignore that guy,even if he does report you i think fdd would investigate and he would see that it was just a simple debate,nuthing more,that guy who just came in here to comment is a stool pigeon....and out of all place to act like a snitch he chose a weed growers forum,but thats neither here nor there,Uncle Ben knows its not a big deal thats why he didnt need to comment himself....so its cool bro,im still here for you dogg and so are many other folks and thats all that matters(i hope...lol)


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## nikk (Oct 21, 2009)

oh and im not stating BrickTop is the snitch,the other guy a few pages ago


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## Hassan (Oct 21, 2009)

If you dont want to hear what UB has to say I dont understand why you wasted your time in this thread. I read from page one and his attitude has been consistently clear. IMO you got the answers you should of expected


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## Snak (Oct 21, 2009)

Collie with all the time you spent furiously punching your keyboard, you could have been reading a book that teaches you to grow your plants more successfully.

That would actually be a positive- what you are doing here right now is not helping anyone out, yourself included.


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## Hassan (Oct 21, 2009)

lol now he's sending me PMs attempting to insult me. Thanks for the laughs collie


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## Snak (Oct 21, 2009)

Yeah this kid is breaking down now- he won't stop sending me PMs.

Can someone get a mod in here?


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## Hassan (Oct 21, 2009)

what he doesnt realize is that masks of ip adresses can be banned also, so it doesnt matter if his ip is static. Its people like him that fuck stuff up for other people on his network

Whoever said something about snitching, this isn't the fourth grade and this kind of behaviour doesnt fly here


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## nikk (Oct 21, 2009)

wow,Tio,is it THAT serious?

im sorry guys i really intended to diffuse the situation,i tried to calm him down a few times,and let him know that there are _GOOD_ people on this site....oh well,im still cool with all of yall....im sorry about this tio


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 21, 2009)

nikk said:


> wow,Tio,is it THAT serious?
> 
> im sorry guys i really intended to diffuse the situation,i tried to calm him down a few times,and let him know that there are _GOOD_ people on this site....oh well,im still cool with all of yall....im sorry about this tio


If you have a comment about topping, then let's hear it. 

Admin is on it. Much thanks.

Let's get back to the subject at hand, growing some good smoke.

Gracias,
Tio


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## captain chronizzle (Oct 21, 2009)

i just wanted to share a story.

long before times of static ip adresses, masked static ip, and pm's, forums with threads and posts. i learned to top.

i remember like yesterday, we went to this spot to smoke and happened upon another smoker(cool spot, close by). that smoker had a few beers and we had a fat sack of weed, so we just chilled. talkin, and talkin, time went by. we talked about cars, girls, and most importantly marijuana. turns out this guy had a brother that was quite experienced. in fact, this guy used to help his brother every year for a short season. this guy told me all sorts of tricks. i completely forgot all but one. he told me to pinch above 3 to 4 internodes. yes, he spoke words, and my mind imagined images of said plant structures. i had no pictures, posts,replies. i remember, i tried this different ways, many times. after a few years, i knew what i was doing. now if time permits, i continue to top, after the first time. i like 12 tops, you have to tie them up well!


I wish i could have had the internet back then and be able to "search", and find this thread. and some people dont appreciate the help? what has our world come to?

my .02


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 21, 2009)

captain chronizzle said:


> this guy told me all sorts of tricks. i completely forgot all but one. he told me to pinch above 3 to 4 internodes. yes, he spoke words, and my mind imagined images of said plant structures.


Howdy, thanks for sharing that story. Brings back memories. There are alot of growers (myself included) that grew pot long before the internet. 



> i had no pictures, posts,replies. i remember, i tried this different ways, many times. after a few years, i knew what i was doing. now if time permits, i continue to top, after the first time. i like 12 tops, you have to tie them up well!


There are many ways to train your plants. My thread is about converting one main cola (central leader) into 4. Topping above the say......4th node, maybe 7th will get you a bushy plant but not new, dominant central leaders. I'm not saying that's good or bad, your end product is your call. I'm just trying to distinguish between the two. 

Grow hard, 
UB


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## NLOverOntario (Oct 21, 2009)

i have heard that you get better yield if you simply bend the tops of the plants and continue to tie them down so that all the tops are equal distance to the light and therefore think they are the top. With them growing horizontally. Wouldn't that yield a lot higher?


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## fanya (Oct 22, 2009)

I thought this was a good pic so I figured I would whore it you to ya UB.

Day 28, you can see all 4 shoots. It's the most compact and smallest out of my 4 plants.

Speaking of plants, in the last 4 days they have exploded, growing about 6 inches, they have grown so fast I have cut a week off veg and flipped them to 12/12 last night. The tallest one is 20-22 inches, with the shortest being 17-18 inches.

Thanks again UB, the babies look amazing, absolutely amazing.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 22, 2009)

NLOverOntario said:


> i have heard that you get better yield if you simply bend the tops of the plants and continue to tie them down so that all the tops are equal distance to the light and therefore think they are the top. With them growing horizontally. Wouldn't that yield a lot higher?


In theory, perhaps. In practice, you never know until you try it. The 4 main colas I've done are pretty fat top to bottom. 



fanya said:


> I thought this was a good pic so I figured I would whore it you to ya UB.


Ah pimp dat. 

Looking good guy, quite a success story!

Keep 'em green,
UB


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## nikk (Oct 22, 2009)

tio,whats the earliest youve topped a girl,i did as soon as i seen a second node,maybe the first true node,its growing 2 colas but i just wanted to ask you


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 22, 2009)

nikk said:


> tio,whats the earliest youve topped a girl,i did as soon as i seen a second node,maybe the first true node,its growing 2 colas but i just wanted to ask you


Really never gave it any thought, I just do it when its vigor ramps up. Perhaps 2 weeks old, 3-6 nodes.


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## nikk (Oct 22, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Really never gave it any thought, I just do it when its vigor ramps up. Perhaps 2 weeks old, 3-6 nodes.


hmmm,for a second i thought i reinvented the game...oh well,touche


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## gr1ml0ck (Oct 22, 2009)

Here is my understanding of why UB's method works in laymans terms:

You grow your plants healthily for 2-3 weeks so that a healthy root system can build up.... remember most of the work during the early stages in happening below ground and not above it for your viewing pleasure!!! 

Your wanting at least 5 nodes IMHO.. this ensures that as this growth stage has been reached, that your root system is healthy and ready to provide the energy for the next step.

Now... here is the bit that ppl seem to be getting confused with.. the 2nd true node.

If you look at any standard "topping" photo you will the see the 2 "Pottential" shoots above the origin of the fan leaves. What you are looking for here is a "Pottential" 4 shoots or lower branches.

So count up from the base of your babies and find those 4 pottential bottom branches and make your cut (root as a clone if you want at this point).

What happens now is a rapid redirection of the hormones and energies of the plant. As there are now only 4 "Pottential" branches on the plant.. and your plant has a very healthy root system bellow the surface.. you will see a rapid growth rate on the those branches and 4 main thick branches will take place of the single main stem.

Then just watch them fly!!!!

Nice one UB!!!!


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## pitch (Oct 22, 2009)

Whew! Read the entire 1157 posts before I chimed in. I was tempted to pipe up earlier with several questions, but as I read through the thread, all my questions were answered (at least for now).
Too bad OP can't separate the wheat from the chaff. Could probably condense the whole thread to a few pages of some very useful and accessible info. 

That said, excellent read Uncle Ben. Very inspiring and an eye opener for my first indoor grow. I've looked at sog, scrog, fim, single stalk, lollipop and other methods but this is the most simple and concise method I've seen.

My seedlings are just starting their 3rd week and are pushing their 6th leaf sets. I'm planning on topping and re-canning this weekend. Of course I'll wait for the proper moon phase and an incoming tide . 

I've been looking for the Spin out spray but can't find it. The link you posted is dead. Can anyone steer me to a vendor? 

Have you ever used the Smart pots? I'm thinking a Smart Pot might achieve similar results if I can't find the paint. Local growers here in the pacific nw say the air pruning of the roots increases the yield substantially. I'd appreciate your opinion.

Here's a link to the manufacturer. http://www.smartpots.com/


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 23, 2009)

gr1ml0ck said:


> Here is my understanding of why UB's method works in laymans terms:
> 
> You grow your plants healthily for 2-3 weeks so that a healthy root system can build up.... remember most of the work during the early stages in happening below ground and not above it for your viewing pleasure!!!
> 
> ...


You got it! Nice post. 

Welcome to RIU and the thread,
UB


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## swazifarmer (Oct 23, 2009)

UB you legend. Just topped my plants saw this thread around a week ago and was looking everywhere for it today. The knowledge you shared was excellent I don't even have to ask you questions after reading all the other posts pure class


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## fanya (Oct 23, 2009)

pitch said:


> Have you ever used the Smart pots? I'm thinking a Smart Pot might achieve similar results if I can't find the paint. Local growers here in the pacific nw say the air pruning of the roots increases the yield substantially. I'd appreciate your opinion.
> 
> Here's a link to the manufacturer. http://www.smartpots.com/


I'm using smart pots and my babys are doing amazing, I got pics some posts back, not to many.

I started them from seed in 5 gallon pots (probably only about 3 gallons of soil though) and they are just thriving. I have 4 in smart pots and 1 in a regular plastic one. The smart pots dry out a lot quick and the plants seem to be a lot happier. I have been watering every other day in the start and sometimes have been watering 2 on 1 off because of theym drying out where the plastic pot one I'm watering every 3 or 4 days.

I'd definately recommend them to any grower over plastic. 

This is only my first grow so take my advice for what its worth but look at my pics some posts back and judge for yourself. I flipped my lights to 12/12 after 28 days and my plants are 18-22 inches tall.


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## Seraph (Oct 23, 2009)

Wow.. I finally finished reading this post, all 117 pages of. And I have to say I had many questions when I started reading it. All of them were answered. This is my first grow and I just passed the 3 week mark and my plant is developing its' 5 node. I will top with UB's method and watch the baby grow. I am very grateful that I found this thread. All the knowledge listed throughout these pages is absolutely priceless. The more I read and learn the more it empowers me as a new grower and has help me get beyond my apprehensions. So thank you all contributing members. I will post a pic after I have topped. Once again thanks....Never stop learning


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## pitch (Oct 23, 2009)

fanya said:


> I'm using smart pots and my babys are doing amazing, I got pics some posts back, not to many.
> 
> I started them from seed in 5 gallon pots (probably only about 3 gallons of soil though) and they are just thriving.


Thanks for your reply. I am trying to figure out what size to use, smart pot or plastic. Using the 12" per gallon rule of thumb, I am thinking of using #3 (3 gallon) smart pots to keep them about 3 - 4 ' tall due to 80" overall height to the room. I like the idea of using a #5 and only using about 3-4 gallons of soil. Which is better, wider or deeper?


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## jolly8541 (Oct 23, 2009)

I also harvest in stages. I harvest the main canopy of buds, then drop the lights and continue the flowering schedule. The buds at the bottom really respond with the increased light, I've harvested single flowers that were over 4" long!


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## fanya (Oct 23, 2009)

pitch said:


> Thanks for your reply. I am trying to figure out what size to use, smart pot or plastic. Using the 12" per gallon rule of thumb, I am thinking of using #3 (3 gallon) smart pots to keep them about 3 - 4 ' tall due to 80" overall height to the room. I like the idea of using a #5 and only using about 3-4 gallons of soil. Which is better, wider or deeper?


I'm running a 400 watt light so my foot print is smaller...

During veg I had wished I had used #3 due to them always leaning to the light, even when the pots were up next to each other they were always leaning. I was rotating them twice a day, once at light on and once half way through. Now that they are 4 weeks in I'm glad I went with the #5 because now they are spaced out so the extra width no longer matters. So the answer is ... I dunno.

As far as wider or deeper for the root system? I dunno on that too. I would say it shouldn't matter because soil is soil and it will use it all due to the air pruning.


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## Dr.RR (Oct 23, 2009)

Uncle Ben - This will be my first time topping a plant. I want to follow your great guide and end up with 4 new cola's. The questions I have are in the photo. Thanks man! 

Oh yeah, wait until the 5th node has grown correct? Right now the plant is working on its 4th. 12 days old since popping through the soil.


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## fanya (Oct 23, 2009)

Dr.RR said:


> Uncle Ben - This will be my first time topping a plant. I want to follow your great guide and end up with 4 new cola's. The questions I have are in the photo. Thanks man!
> 
> Oh yeah, wait until the 5th node has grown correct? Right now the plant is working on its 4th. 12 days old since popping through the soil.


You sir are correct. You can do it anywhere between the 2nd and 3rd node. Just make sure you don't damage the 2nd node.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 25, 2009)

swazifarmer said:


> UB you legend. Just topped my plants saw this thread around a week ago and was looking everywhere for it today. The knowledge you shared was excellent I don't even have to ask you questions after reading all the other posts pure class


Thanks for the positive feedback, and good luck!



Dr.RR said:


> Uncle Ben - This will be my first time topping a plant. I want to follow your great guide and end up with 4 new cola's. The questions I have are in the photo. Thanks man!
> 
> Oh yeah, wait until the 5th node has grown correct? Right now the plant is working on its 4th. 12 days old since popping through the soil.


That'll work. Leave about 1/2", 1 cm, above the node to callous over.

Have fun......


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## The Cheese Is Dank (Oct 25, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Thanks for the positive feedback, and good luck!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


is it good to top when the plant is that young? would waiting untiil the plant has grown 5 or 6 nodes asnd then top it above the second node be more effective?


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 26, 2009)

The Cheese Is Dank said:


> is it good to top when the plant is that young? would waiting untiil the plant has grown 5 or 6 nodes asnd then top it above the second node be more effective?


Read the thread!


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## slablocal (Oct 26, 2009)

UB-
I read a few pages in and didnt see anything....If im working with a clone, and from the soil up it has alternating nodes, but recent growth at the top has non-alternating. Do i need to let it grow out and top from the non-alternating nodes, or can I make the cut counting the alternating nodes? Hope that makes sense..

Thanks


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 26, 2009)

slablocal said:


> UB-
> I read a few pages in and didnt see anything....If im working with a clone, and from the soil up it has alternating nodes, but recent growth at the top has non-alternating. Do i need to let it grow out and top from the non-alternating nodes, or can I make the cut counting the alternating nodes? Hope that makes sense..
> 
> Thanks


It's been covered several times. You can only expect results with opposing nodes.


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## The Cheese Is Dank (Oct 26, 2009)

haha trust me i have read the thread, i dont even know y i added the second part of the question, prob just high haha.
going back and reading wat i wrote makes me feel stupid cause the answer is in the thread a couple times sorry! haha


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## Snak (Oct 26, 2009)

pitch said:


> That said, excellent read Uncle Ben. Very inspiring and an eye opener for my first indoor grow. I've looked at sog, scrog, fim, single stalk, lollipop and other methods but this is the most simple and concise method I've seen.
> 
> My seedlings are just starting their 3rd week and are pushing their 6th leaf sets. I'm planning on topping and re-canning this weekend. Of course I'll wait for the proper moon phase and an incoming tide .




This was exactly the situation I was in. I went for Ben's method, and I was extremely glad I did. Its practical, hassle-free, easy, and very efficient. 

In my experience, one plant topped like yielded almost twice as much as its untopped companions. I absolutely must recommend this technique to anyone and everyone.

Lets put it this way- out of all of the threads I've read on Rollitup, this one has had the best impact on my plants.


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## Dr.RR (Oct 27, 2009)

I hope you don't mind me posting these pics in here but I topped my first plant according to your instructions tonight. Hopefully I did it right!


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## FreeLeaf (Oct 28, 2009)

UB-Yea i know this thread is on topping but my cheese plants seem to have developed some white mold on some of the lower leafs. My temp is about 72f, rh is about 25 and I definately do not over water them so I was kind of surprised. I have a fan on them 20 hrs a day. mmm why the mold and even more importantly, how do I get rid of it? Since it is on a couple of leaf sets on the bottom of each plant is it because the leafs are relatively close to the soil and the light is not penetrating down that far?
thanks in advance


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 28, 2009)

Snak said:


> This was exactly the situation I was in. I went for Ben's method, and I was extremely glad I did. Its practical, hassle-free, easy, and very efficient.


I agree. 



> In my experience, one plant topped like yielded almost twice as much as its untopped companions. I absolutely must recommend this technique to anyone and everyone.
> 
> Lets put it this way- out of all of the threads I've read on Rollitup, this one has had the best impact on my plants.


Thanks for the kind words.



Dr.RR said:


> I hope you don't mind me posting these pics in here but I topped my first plant according to your instructions tonight. Hopefully I did it right!


Looks like you're on your way, have fun.



FreeLeaf said:


> UB-Yea i know this thread is on topping but my cheese plants seem to have developed some white mold on some of the lower leafs. My temp is about 72f, rh is about 25 and I definately do not over water them so I was kind of surprised. I have a fan on them 20 hrs a day. mmm why the mold and even more importantly, how do I get rid of it? Since it is on a couple of leaf sets on the bottom of each plant is it because the leafs are relatively close to the soil and the light is not penetrating down that far?
> thanks in advance


A new thread in the Sick Plants would be appropriate, but since its already here I'll bite. Pests (and that includes fungi/rot) always move into weak, stressed plants before healthy ones, so, you need to work on the basics which includes keeping the fan on all the time, not 20 hours a day. It looks like powdery mildew to me which "blooms" when conditions are right - high RH and moderate temps. I doubt if your RH is really 25% A spray with Daconil or Captan would work, benomyl if ya got it. You need a product that is both curative and preventative. Look at Rose disease control products that contain chlorothalonil.

Good luck,
UB


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## swazifarmer (Oct 28, 2009)

Dr.RR said:


> Uncle Ben - This will be my first time topping a plant. I want to follow your great guide and end up with 4 new cola's. The questions I have are in the photo. Thanks man!
> 
> Oh yeah, wait until the 5th node has grown correct? Right now the plant is working on its 4th. 12 days old since popping through the soil.


Shit I cut the above 3rd node so 6 colas it is on my indica dom plant it's going get very bushy


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## Mr.Oasis (Oct 28, 2009)

> Shit I cut the above 3rd node so 6 colas it is on my indica dom plant it's going get very bushy


i did the exact same thing about 2 weeks ago, i have a couple from bagseed that i was topping as per the method in this thread....and f.i.m literally, all perfect, just 1 node too high

1 is def indica and _she_ took about a week to show strong growth (all 6 tops)

the other is absolutely a sativa (lucky me!, hope its a girl) but she shrugged it right off and continued to reach for the sky

they both look good, ill just have an extra pair of tops i reckon

thanks for your wisdom UB


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## 12bonsai (Oct 28, 2009)

Hey Uncle Ben, love the thread.....Been lurking since it's inception....I have tried your method and like the results....Although I haven't gotten 4 main branches yet I am still trying....I have gotten 2 main and 2 minor, 2 main and one minor oooops slipped and cut on off ....

Now here comes my question for you which has not been covered too well and I am at that stage now....I grew up the mother plants and have cloned them.....Haven't sexed them yet but that will be soon.....Anyways on the clones I have been adding extra N to get those alternating nodes to get back to the opposing so I can top them for 4 colas.....Some are responding others not....My question once I get them to go opposing and go 4-6 nodes opposing I just want a confirmation that I need to eliminate the alternating nodes and top 2 nodes up from the bottom 2 opposing nodes......and continue on from there.....Does that make sense? All my clones were alternating when cut and after rooted I started feeding extra N to get opposing...Now that they are growing opposing I want to top......Anyways any help would be appreciated.......


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 28, 2009)

12bonsai said:


> Hey Uncle Ben, love the thread.....Been lurking since it's inception....I have tried your method and like the results....Although I haven't gotten 4 main branches yet I am still trying....I have gotten 2 main and 2 minor, 2 main and one minor oooops slipped and cut on off ....
> 
> Now here comes my question for you which has not been covered too well and I am at that stage now....I grew up the mother plants and have cloned them.....Haven't sexed them yet but that will be soon.....Anyways on the clones I have been adding extra N to get those alternating nodes to get back to the opposing so I can top them for 4 colas.....Some are responding others not....My question once I get them to go opposing and go 4-6 nodes opposing I just want a confirmation that I need to eliminate the alternating nodes and top 2 nodes up from the bottom 2 opposing nodes......and continue on from there.....Does that make sense? All my clones were alternating when cut and after rooted I started feeding extra N to get opposing...Now that they are growing opposing I want to top......Anyways any help would be appreciated.......


You've got to get them back into a vegetative stage which will come with long days, short nights. The extra N boost will help. Once you get your opposing nodes, do the dirty deed.

Glad it's working out for you Mr.Oasis.

UB


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## swazifarmer (Oct 29, 2009)

Mr.Oasis said:


> i did the exact same thing about 2 weeks ago, i have a couple from bagseed that i was topping as per the method in this thread....and f.i.m literally, all perfect, just 1 node too high
> 
> 1 is def indica and _she_ took about a week to show strong growth (all 6 tops)
> 
> ...


I did it to all 3 plants that ain't Fuck I Missed but Fuck I Fucked Up FIFU my Indica plants didn't like it I got a feeling each plant will have 6 small cola's


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## swazifarmer (Oct 29, 2009)

The more mistakes you make the more you learn only once you start making the same mistakes it become stupid otherwise it's our nature


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## Mr.Oasis (Oct 29, 2009)

haha swazi, FIFU indeed, and i hear you, i felt like my indica was just giving me the finger for about 10 days but its blowing up now, flipping them in about 2 more weeks i think, just a short term winter smoke project trying to get my methods right before next season, im a bit of a noob but am looking forward to some topped girls that will get to see the sun


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## lawhyno (Oct 29, 2009)

Hi Uncle Ben. I am finally ready to put my girls into flowering. They are about 18" and I am expecting to keep them in flowering for about 55 days. Typically, how much bigger does the plant grow while flowering? do they grow at the same rate as they do in veg? Also, how much yield does an experienced grower like yourself get per plant?


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## lawhyno (Oct 29, 2009)

lawhyno said:


> Hi Uncle Ben. I am finally ready to put my girls into flowering. They are about 18" and I am expecting to keep them in flowering for about 55 days. Typically, how much bigger does the plant grow while flowering? do they grow at the same rate as they do in veg? Also, how much yield does an experienced grower like yourself get per plant?


The girls are in perfect health and will be under two 1000w hps lights btw... I am growing a few different strains so giving an approximate and general answer would be great.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 29, 2009)

lawhyno said:


> Hi Uncle Ben. I am finally ready to put my girls into flowering. They are about 18" and I am expecting to keep them in flowering for about 55 days.


Are you sure? You have a helluva lot of stretch there, anywhere from 2X to 4X.

Yield is way too variable. Depends on too many factors. I get any where from 2 oz to 10 oz per plant, but then again I do SOB (sea of bush).


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## DaveCoulier (Oct 30, 2009)

If you have a plant with 3 sets of leaves instead of 2 at the third internode, what would all of you do? Top or not top?

Just noticed one set of those leaves is 6 bladed. The center blade seems to be like conjoined twins.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 30, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> If you have a plant with 3 sets of leaves instead of 2 at the third internode, what would all of you do? Top or not top?
> 
> Just noticed one set of those leaves is 6 bladed. The center blade seems to be like conjoined twins.


What do you mean by 3 sets of leaves? You mean 3 leaves to a leafset?


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## myles420 (Oct 30, 2009)

ok about the topping how do u get more the 4 ?


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## DaveCoulier (Oct 30, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> What do you mean by 3 sets of leaves? You mean 3 leaves to a leafset?


I found out the correct term for it. The plant is trifoliate starting at the fourth internode.


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## DaveCoulier (Oct 30, 2009)

myles420 said:


> ok about the topping how do u get more the 4 ?


You could always read the first few pages of the thread you know, but since you didn't..If you chop between the 2nd and 3rd internode you get 4. If you chop between 3rd and 4th you'll get 6, etc.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 30, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> I found out the correct term for it. The plant is trifoliate starting at the third internode.


Leafsets with 3 leaves each are still in their juvenile stage.


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## DaveCoulier (Oct 30, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Leafsets with 3 leaves each are still in their juvenile stage.


I think theres some confusion going on here. Ive read that trifoliates are 3 leafsets w/ x amounts of leaves per set. I have 3 sets of 5 bladed leaves at the fourth internode.

If Ive got the term wrong please correct me


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## sherriberry (Oct 30, 2009)

Im really new to this. I understand to cut above the second node... however... i dont know what the second node is...

Does one count from the bottom.. up, or does one count from the top ... down?

Further... why does the plant HAVE to have 5-6 nodes?

What would be the disadvantage to doing it sooner than that 5-6 node develops?

When you say pinch... is that a literal recomendation over cutting with scizzors?

If you could get a better diagram of where to cut... on perhaps an "illustrated" plant, it would help us dummies.

Or perhaps its in the 100+ pages, and i didnt see it, and you can direct me to the propper page. Thanks.


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## DaveCoulier (Oct 31, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> Im really new to this. I understand to cut above the second node... however... i dont know what the second node is...
> 
> Does one count from the bottom.. up, or does one count from the top ... down?
> 
> ...



You count from the bottom up. The first set of leaves to appear after the cotyledons(baby leaves) is your first node. The next set of leaves is your second node.

You wait until it has 5 or 6 nodes because your root system will be better developed, and the plant will grow better than if you had chopped as soon as possible. More roots=faster growth.

BTW, there is a picture on the second to last page telling you where to chop. Check it out.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 31, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> I think theres some confusion going on here. Ive read that trifoliates are 3 leafsets w/ x amounts of leaves per set. I have 3 sets of 5 bladed leaves at the fourth internode.
> 
> If Ive got the term wrong please correct me


Ah gotcha! Sounds like a potential additional budsite to me.


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## DaveCoulier (Oct 31, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Ah gotcha! Sounds like a potential additional budsite to me.


I hope the trait continues to express itself as the plant grows. Ive read that it can come and go. Id love for it to stick around. It'd make for a fun breeding experiment.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 31, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> I hope the trait continues to express itself as the plant grows. Ive read that it can come and go. Id love for it to stick around. It'd make for a fun breeding experiment.


I betcha Robert Clark has addressed it in his book: http://www.mellowgold.com/grow/mjbotany-removed/


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## DaveCoulier (Oct 31, 2009)

Jesus christ you trying to kill me with all that reading. I found a few instances about Whorled phyllotaxy(trifoliates), but it didnt really go into detail. Ill stick to experimenting. Its more fun than reading all that, and then trying to actually understand it .


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## Dr.RR (Oct 31, 2009)

Uncle Ben - It's been four days since I topped my first plant. I topped my second last night. The first one is exploding with new growth. Is it normal for topped plants to be using up water much faster than untopped plants? I water this one much more than the others now. Also; I've attached some photos. I can only see two new bud-sites...can you elaborate?

Thanks!


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 1, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> Jesus christ you trying to kill me with all that reading. I found a few instances about Whorled phyllotaxy(trifoliates), but it didnt really go into detail. Ill stick to experimenting. Its more fun than reading all that, and then trying to actually understand it .


LOL



Dr.RR said:


> Uncle Ben - It's been four days since I topped my first plant. I topped my second last night. The first one is exploding with new growth. Is it normal for topped plants to be using up water much faster than untopped plants? I water this one much more than the others now. Also; I've attached some photos. I can only see two new bud-sites...can you elaborate?
> 
> Thanks!


If your plants are really sucking up the water, that's a good sign.

Don't get pissed, but there is something really wrong with those plants, they don't look healthy. They are chlorotic and the leaves don't look green overall. If you got a photo under natural light (flash, corrected room light) it would help. What foods are you giving them?


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## Dr.RR (Nov 1, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice, just what I want to hear!  I added some photos of the first topped plant under natural daylight. But both of them are really sucking up the water, I have to water almost everyday now with them.

Not feeding any nutes yet. I was going to start giving them FF Grow Big at the end of this week. They are in FF Ocean Forest soil which is supposed to feed the plant for a month before you need to add nutes (so i've read).


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 2, 2009)

Dr.RR said:


> Nice, just what I want to hear!  I added some photos of the first topped plant under natural daylight. But both of them are really sucking up the water, I have to water almost everyday now with them.
> 
> Not feeding any nutes yet. I was going to start giving them FF Grow Big at the end of this week. They are in FF Ocean Forest soil which is supposed to feed the plant for a month before you need to add nutes (so i've read).


Color looks good. Is that a double cola forming?

Names mean nothing to me, only NPK/micro values. You feed based on the vigor of your plants, not what is recommended as it is always a rough guide. BTW, I've had to water 3 gallon pots twice a day, about a liter each time. The need to water often reflects that you have a robust root system and lots of foliage. That's a good thing. Another indicator of good plant health/vigor is that each set of new plant material is larger than the one that preceded it. If all of a sudden your leafsets start getting smaller and not looking too good, you got problems. I learned this real quick growing orchids, and it translates to all types of plant material including cannabis. Of course there is a max point reached, which should be your guide going forward.

Good luck.....


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## Snak (Nov 2, 2009)

Dr. RR- 

Your plant's structure is very similar to a few that I have. Although it appears we both topped at the correct spot to achieve 4 colas, we're only getting 2 strong ones. 

Do you use CFL's by chance? I was guessing that my plants couldn't get all 4 colas up and even because the light penetration of my CFLs is too low. Even though I have a metric crap-ton of 42w bulbs, it doesn't seem to really promote growth on the two lower branches that should form up into colas.

Regardless, my plants all have at least two strong main branches (colas) with plenty of healthy side-branches, and topping them this way clearly produces way more weight than just leaving them be. Me thinks you will be happy with your plant and what you did to her


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## FuZZyBUDz (Nov 2, 2009)

can i clone the top that i cut???? and wen u say 5-6 node, does that mean fully formed or just 'in-sight'???


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## Snak (Nov 2, 2009)

FuZZyBUDz said:


> can i clone the top that i cut???? and wen u say 5-6 node, does that mean fully formed or just 'in-sight'???


Found on page TWO of this thread- 

"By allowing the plant to get a good start, which occurs with some leaf material from say......6 nodes (opposing leafsets) as opposed to 2, you're just giving it a better jump-start. *You can use the cutting as a clone*. "

5-6 nodes shouldn't be hard to spot- if you have 5 fully formed and a 6th "in sight" that would qualify as 5-6 nodes.


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## Dr.RR (Nov 2, 2009)

Snak said:


> Dr. RR-
> 
> Your plant's structure is very similar to a few that I have. Although it appears we both topped at the correct spot to achieve 4 colas, we're only getting 2 strong ones.
> 
> ...


I'm using a 400W MH and HPS for this grow. I think I was expecting four new colas to form on the top nodes...but I see two on top and two more forming off of the 1st node.

My MH blew out three weeks into the grow so I've been using the HPS to substitute until I get my replacement MH. Heck by then it'll be flowering time anyway..




Uncle Ben - Double cola? I've looked at the plant a bit closer & there are two new cola's from the 2nd node and two more forming on the first node. The bottom two aren't getting much light at all so they aren't growing nearly as fast as the top 2.


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## FuZZyBUDz (Nov 2, 2009)

ok i did this to my kushy indica, and tell me wat u think, keep in mind my first top, and cloning.

heres the 'top' in the humidity dome....






and heres the plant....







again...







WAT DO U THINK PEEPS??????????


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## FuZZyBUDz (Nov 2, 2009)

how long should i veg it fer after i did this i can c how it werkz now!!!!!!! FUKIN AMAZING! but ive had it in veg from seed fer about a month mayb more, how much longer should i go????


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 2, 2009)

Dr.RR said:


> I'm using a 400W MH and HPS for this grow. I think I was expecting four new colas to form on the top nodes...but I see two on top and two more forming off of the 1st node.
> 
> My MH blew out three weeks into the grow so I've been using the HPS to substitute until I get my replacement MH. Heck by then it'll be flowering time anyway..


HPS is fine from start to finish. Those that believe the paradigm of MH for veg and HPS for flowering have not done their homework, done the experiments. You'll be fine.



> Uncle Ben - Double cola? I've looked at the plant a bit closer & there are two new cola's from the 2nd node and two more forming on the first node. The bottom two aren't getting much light at all so they aren't growing nearly as fast as the top 2.


It's dat damn ol ho moan thang again. The top 2 colas will always be dominant, but, I've never had a problem regarding differences in bud weight between the 4. Your mileage may vary....


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 2, 2009)

UB, can you give me some info on pinching. I know people use it when supercropping, but Im wondering is it possible to pinch the top two colas without bending them over. Will that allow the lower colas to catch up while the top two are healing?


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## Katatawnic (Nov 3, 2009)

Dr.RR said:


> I've looked at the plant a bit closer & there are two new cola's from the 2nd node and two more forming on the first node. The bottom two aren't getting much light at all so they aren't growing nearly as fast as the top 2.





DaveCoulier said:


> UB, can you give me some info on pinching. I know people use it when supercropping, but Im wondering is it possible to pinch the top two colas without bending them over. Will that allow the lower colas to catch up while the top two are healing?


I used to just tuck the fan leaves a bit to allow the lights to penetrate the lower tops. Works great, although I did have to tuck them again daily. 

Now I do the LST thing. I'd personally suggest gently tying them rather than pinching/bending... much less chance of stress on the plant, as well as unintentionally broken stems.  You also have more control this way.

Keep in mind though, tying them "far" down will result in more tops than your initial four. (Just in case you don't want that, although I get *lots* of large buds from this. lol) So if your intent is only to allow a bit more light to the lower two tops, you'll only want to tie the upper two just enough for this.

These two photos were taken about two weeks after topping, and about one week after tying them... as you can see, they were tied completely horizontally, resulting in many more tops. Tying them down about, say, an inch or so would most likely be enough to encourage the more even growth you're desiring without a ton of new branches resulting as well... although they'll probably never be perfectly even.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 3, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> UB, can you give me some info on pinching. I know people use it when supercropping, but Im wondering is it possible to pinch the top two colas without bending them over. Will that allow the lower colas to catch up while the top two are healing?


I'll not be a slave to my plants, (right). So, I improvise by doing a double harvest. Tieing, pinching.....it's really not necessary to get great yields. Pinching is causing a callous to the stem, supposedly it increase yields. It sure increases forum talk cloaked in romanticsm, hope, mystique.....the human element, not necessarily the botanical one. Wanna increase yields? Learn what makes a plant tick. I see some of the pathetic plants in these forums and can only shake my head.

Rulz......

1. Use good overhead lighting - HID. Exclusively MH, HPS, combo it doesn't really matter to the plant. The plant _really_ doesn't care. It only matters to folks who wanna talk the lights talk and of course vendors who are out to sell lighting every which way but Sunday. 

2. Use mobile high reflecting side panels. Keep them adjacent to the plants based on the garden's footprint. There is alot of useful light in reflective light. You're buying light, do not waste it, especially by over-doing it. Find your plant's light saturation point reflected by the bleaching out of the chlorophyll.

3.* Double harvest* - take out the bulked up, fat colas first. Cut the cola off at a point where it turns from fat and chunky to wispy and airy buds. Those are the last to come on and mature, so give them a chance. Studies have shown they can also have the highest THC %, one reason is that they aren't subjected to some of the stresses of top buds like heat. Put the lower half back under the lights, same photoperiod and when they bulk up harvest those buds. It can make a big difference in your overall yields. I've published photos a dozen times in other forums, too damn busy to do it again.  BTW, ya gotta have some leaves left at first harvest to do this right. Can't do it if you're bound and determined to butcher your plants by not providing proper nutrition or flushing.

UB


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 3, 2009)

Thanks UB. I plan on doing the double harvest after reading about you mentioning it before. Ill make sure I have a healthy vibrant plant to do it with, rather than some plant that looks like its limping to the finish line without any leaves.


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## Mixooo (Nov 3, 2009)

Great work UB , thanks for the wanderful info <3
Sorry if i repeat someone's else question , but i was wandering does toping plants may contribute for plant sex ? In way does it somehow change the balance male/female ?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 3, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> Thanks UB. I plan on doing the double harvest after reading about you mentioning it before. Ill make sure I have a healthy vibrant plant to do it with, rather than some plant that looks like its limping to the finish line without any leaves.


LOL



Mixooo said:


> In way does it somehow change the balance male/female ?



Doesn't have any affect.


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## swazifarmer (Nov 4, 2009)

Any info on strains that don't take nicely to topping?
coz I hear a few people knocking it, these people say that certain strains produce smaller colas that add up (gram wise) to 1 larger cola.


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 4, 2009)

swazifarmer said:


> Any info on strains that don't take nicely to topping?
> coz I hear a few people knocking it, these people say that certain strains produce smaller colas that add up (gram wise) to 1 larger cola.


I would search in the Seeds & Strain review forum. You'll probably find a bit more info there.


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## swazifarmer (Nov 4, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> I would search in the Seeds & Strain review forum. You'll probably find a bit more info there.


Do they address topping?


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## thewinghunter (Nov 4, 2009)

CAn this be done at ANY time during veg some of my veg plants are 32 inches tall


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 4, 2009)

swazifarmer said:


> Any info on strains that don't take nicely to topping?
> coz I hear a few people knocking it, these people say that certain strains produce smaller colas that add up (gram wise) to 1 larger cola.


Strain, genes, it doesn't matter. I top mainly sativas to control height too.



thewinghunter said:


> CAn this be done at ANY time during veg some of my veg plants are 32 inches tall


I wouldn't bother, it's too late. If I had 32" plants, they'd surely finish out at 12' tall! Isn't it time to flower?

Tio


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 4, 2009)

swazifarmer said:


> Do they address topping?


You wont know unless you ask someone if they've grown the same strain and whether they topped or not. Can't hurt. If you're growing a popular strain then you should find no shortage of people who may be able to help.


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## swazifarmer (Nov 5, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> You wont know unless you ask someone if they've grown the same strain and whether they topped or not. Can't hurt. If you're growing a popular strain then you should find no shortage of people who may be able to help.


I'm growing bagseed a indica dom but it's cool I'll find out soon enuff


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## 12bonsai (Nov 5, 2009)

UB, it hasn't been covered in too much detail in the thread but I want to try your topping method but am having a bit of a time trying to get my clones to go back to opposing nodes.....

I have used extra nitrogen and they are still coming out alternating....Is the 18/6 critical as I have them on 24/0?

Also, once I get them to go opposing when I go to top do I prune the alternating nodes below the opposing ones to leave the 2 sets of opposing? Also would I go 5-6 opposing nodes (if I can get them to go opposing ) before topping for 4 main colas....

Thanks this is the nutz thread......


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 5, 2009)

12bonsai said:


> UB, it hasn't been covered in too much detail in the thread but I want to try your topping method but am having a bit of a time trying to get my clones to go back to opposing nodes.....


20/4 should do it IF the phytochrome thingie kicks in, which it should unless it's got rudy in it.



> Also, once I get them to go opposing when I go to top do I prune the alternating nodes below the opposing ones to leave the 2 sets of opposing?


If you're determined to get 4 main colas, I think your chances are very iffy. I wouldn't bother with that type of plant material, I think you'll be disapppointed in the results.



> Also would I go 5-6 opposing nodes (if I can get them to go opposing ) before topping for 4 main colas....
> 
> Thanks this is the nutz thread......


You'll just get a typical bushy plant, which is OK.


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## blackmetal19 (Nov 5, 2009)

Nice +rep....


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## dzk (Nov 5, 2009)

UB, I have five plants that I am going to top for 4 colas. I have already topped three (killed me to remove the top 2/3 of the plant) but I am convinced that this is the way to go. 

My immediate question is regarding one plant that has the bottom node right on top of the cotyledons. It is only about 1/2" from the soil and is a very puny node compared with the other four that have formed. The genetics is G13 Labs Super Skunk Fem.

If I remove the branches at this first node and then treat nodes two and three as if they are nodes one and two will I get the results that I desire? Or, is the first node going to remain the first node no matter what I do.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 5, 2009)

dzk said:


> My immediate question is regarding one plant that has the bottom node right on top of the cotyledons. It is only about 1/2" from the soil and is a very puny node compared with the other four that have formed. The genetics is G13 Labs Super Skunk Fem.


Consider that node #1. Doesn't matter what it looks like. If it looks puny, your plant isn't happy for some reason. 



> If I remove the branches at this first node and then treat nodes two and three as if they are nodes one and two will I get the results that I desire?


Don't remove any branches.

Uuhhhhhhh, you aint part of the RIU Youth Corps Lollipop group by chance? 



> Or, is the first node going to remain the first node no matter what I do.


Yes. It still has dormant buds which reside in the axis of where the leaf petioles attach to the trunk. 

Come on guys, lets try to understand plant parts shall we? This will all become clear if you do.

UB


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## Katatawnic (Nov 5, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yes. It still has dormant buds which reside in the axis of where the leaf petioles attach to the trunk.
> 
> Come on guys, lets try to understand plant parts shall we? This will all become clear if you do.


How does this differ from removing the dominant bud site when topping? (Not trolling; serious question RE: plant parts.)


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## dzk (Nov 5, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Consider that node #1. Doesn't matter what it looks like. If it looks puny, your plant isn't happy for some reason.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for your prompt response. I thought that would be the case but needed some clarification. This is a great thread and I have nothing but respect for your experience. 

No lollipopping here and I no longer qualify for any type of a _youth_ group. I saw that thread. Can't understand why these punks feel compelled to challenge all the time. They don't even know what they don't know.


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## Snak (Nov 5, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Uuhhhhhhh, you aint part of the RIU Youth Corps Lollipop group by chance?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Watch what you say around here, Ben. I can already see them marching on into this thread, defending their smallish ways. 
"We represent, the lollipop guild, the lollipop guild, the lollipop guild!"


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## mjr99 (Nov 5, 2009)

Should i top a northern lights x big bud sprout if I only have 45" of space to work with counting lights and pot. I.e will that strain grow tall then 45" if properly lit?


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## Cashola (Nov 5, 2009)

Wow, I got to page 40, then jumped to the end. ITS STILL GOIN STRONG hahahahaha. I'm still hooped though as all my plants, including Mom are all opposed nodes


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## Cashola (Nov 5, 2009)

Sorry for the dupe. Proxy had a brain fart


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## mjr99 (Nov 5, 2009)

Some of you mention that you do two harvest, the colas then the bottom later. Was wondering if you disregard trich color, or if the colas amber first or if just let the bottom amber out or what? thanks.


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 5, 2009)

Snak said:


> Watch what you say around here, Ben. I can already see them marching on into this thread, defending their smallish ways.
> "We represent, the lollipop guild, the lollipop guild, the lollipop guild!"


That picture made me lol. Nice work.



mjr99 said:


> Should i top a northern lights x big bud sprout if I only have 45" of space to work with counting lights and pot. I.e will that strain grow tall then 45" if properly lit?


45" isn't alot of space to work with including lights and pot. Topping makes the plant shorter and bushier.


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## Roland (Nov 5, 2009)

Snak said:


> Watch what you say around here, Ben. I can already see them marching on into this thread, defending their smallish ways.
> "We represent, the lollipop guild, the lollipop guild, the lollipop guild!"


Hahahhahahaa me tooo ! lmfao


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## josh b (Nov 6, 2009)

i just repotted my 1 moth old plant hopefully she takes.


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 6, 2009)

josh b said:


> i just repotted my 1 moth old plant hopefully she takes.


She'll be fine. I had the rootball of one of my plants collapse when I tried to put it in the new pot. It showed no visible damage above ground, but it stopped growing for about 5 days. Back to normal now.

If you had a good smooth transplant, the plant probably wont even notice it.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 6, 2009)

Katatawnic said:


> How does this differ from removing the dominant bud site when topping? (Not trolling; serious question RE: plant parts.)


Ya lost me bud. Rephrase please.



dzk said:


> No lollipopping here and I no longer qualify for any type of a _youth_ group. I saw that thread. Can't understand why these punks feel compelled to challenge all the time. They don't even know what they don't know.


Yeppers. It's always the "we" and "us" thingie. Some folks hav a need for a consensus, it's the human way. 



Snak said:


> Watch what you say around here, Ben. I can already see them marching on into this thread, defending their smallish ways.
> "We represent, the lollipop guild, the lollipop guild, the lollipop guild!"


That is funny, hah!

Ya'll have a good weekend.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 7, 2009)

FWIW, I just started a "tweek" thread.

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers.html#post3358288


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## stylios2008 (Nov 8, 2009)

Hello UB..Ive been in the veg stage for 4 weeks now. Had some issues with my DWC set up and burned my plants. Did a flush, and now they are back on track. Is it too late to cut down so low or should I just wait and try this out on my clones once they root?...and just to be sure I understand..top after the 2nd node ( or second set of fan leaves???, or the leaves that are sprouting on the stem where the fan leaves are coming out? sorry I am very new to this so forgive my ignorance

Thanks


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## FuZZyBUDz (Nov 8, 2009)

UB, heres an up date of the girly i chopped fer the 4 main cola teqn. and it went PERFECT....












i would do this shit again, and PLAN to! thankx DOOD!!! +REP


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## FuZZyBUDz (Nov 8, 2009)

stylios2008 said:


> Hello UB..Ive been in the veg stage for 4 weeks now. Had some issues with my DWC set up and burned my plants. Did a flush, and now they are back on track. Is it too late to cut down so low or should I just wait and try this out on my clones once they root?...and just to be sure I understand..top after the 2nd node ( or second set of fan leaves???, or the leaves that are sprouting on the stem where the fan leaves are coming out? sorry I am very new to this so forgive my ignorance
> 
> Thanks


 
i waited till i could see the 6th node forming, then clipped above the second and below the third. 

the single fingered leaves (cotyledons) dont count, my names in that word! haha, but yea then the growth will show on the top side of the four fan leafes that r left from the top.

is that a lil better detailed?? look below.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 8, 2009)

stylios2008 said:


> Hello UB..Ive been in the veg stage for 4 weeks now. Had some issues with my DWC set up and burned my plants. Did a flush, and now they are back on track. Is it too late to cut down so low or should I just wait and try this out on my clones once they root?...and just to be sure I understand..top after the 2nd node ( or second set of fan leaves???, or the leaves that are sprouting on the stem where the fan leaves are coming out? sorry I am very new to this so forgive my ignorance
> 
> Thanks


Where the fan leaf petioles attach to the "trunk" is called a node. It's not too late to top, all depends on what you're aiming for.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 8, 2009)

FuZZyBUDz said:


> UB, heres an up date of the girly i chopped fer the 4 main cola teqn. and it went PERFECT....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looking good guy. Now, the real challenge is growing to produce plenty of foliage and maintaining it until harvest. 

Good luck!


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## mjr99 (Nov 9, 2009)

according to this thread is this where i should top? ty


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## Roland (Nov 9, 2009)

Hi Ya' UB ... question : ( for clarification )

In Post # 1 ..it looks like it was topped above 4th opposing node after cotyledons ... " the skeleton " (after harvest) .. am I missing the definition of a " true node" ?


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## fanya (Nov 9, 2009)

mjr99 said:


> according to this thread is this where i should top? ty


Yes.

That black is ultra hard to see, lol.


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## FuZZyBUDz (Nov 9, 2009)

hahahhaa YEA IT IS! hahahaaa but that pks is a lil blurry so i cant tell but r those cotyledons on the bottom???? if so, NO. above those


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## Jack in the Bud (Nov 9, 2009)

UB,

A quick question if I may....

How long after the pinching (to get 4 main colas) do you continue to let them veg before switching to 12/12 to start the flowering phase?

Thanks.

Jack


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## FuZZyBUDz (Nov 9, 2009)

I kinda agree. but more so how long did u veg the 1 in the pic??? ive been veg'n fer 1 month 1 week now, LOTS of foliage, but was just wonderin wat length u went, OH and size of light(s)??????????


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 10, 2009)

Jack in the Bud said:


> UB,
> 
> A quick question if I may....
> 
> ...


That's a personal call depending on your garden's restrictions, size of plants you want, etc. I let them go about 4 weeks in veg from the time they pop the soil's surface as a seedling. Any longer and they'd be 6' tall trees. My plants grow extremely fast.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 10, 2009)

Roland said:


> Hi Ya' UB ... question : ( for clarification )
> 
> In Post # 1 ..it looks like it was topped above 4th opposing node after cotyledons ... " the skeleton " (after harvest) .. am I missing the definition of a " true node" ?


No, you're letting a few lower secondary branches confuse you, which I admit is easy to do. This goes to show you there are dormant foliar buds all along the "trunk" or stems waiting on the plant's trigger mechanism (hormones) to call on them to break out.







The really thick scaffold branches are the main colas. You should be able to see 2 distinct "V's", one above the other, 90* to the other. The spindly branches came on quite a bit later, which they normally do no matter how you prune or train a plant. Those secondary branches produced superficial buds, as normal. Also notice the bulging ring, the callous like effect of the 4 main colas where they are attached to the "trunk", the node sites. Interesting effect, don't have a clue why the plant responded like that. 

Tio


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## fanya (Nov 10, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> That's a personal call depending on your garden's restrictions, size of plants you want, etc. I let them go about 4 weeks in veg from the time they pop the soil's surface as a seedling. Any longer and they'd be 6' tall trees. My plants grow extremely fast.
> 
> UB


Ya I vegged for 28 days and my sativas are about 5.5 feet tall after 19 days of flower now.

Things got a lot taller than I expected. I had to put my other plant on 2 feet of boxes to get it up even with the sativas so the canopy could be even, lol I figured a 2 foot drop for the 3rd plant would really kill the light it was getting.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 10, 2009)

fanya said:


> Ya I vegged for 28 days and my sativas are about 5.5 feet tall after 19 days of flower now.


lol  That's why I never let a sativa get over 12" before putting in 12/12. Hope you have a 12' ceiling.

Good luck!


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## irish4:20 (Nov 10, 2009)

Hey ub thanks for all the helpful info you give in this sticky. I used your tecni to get the 4 colas i topped about a week ago and seems to be okhope so would upload pics but takes me 4ever so if you would like to see jus use link in my sig thanks again


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## fanya (Nov 10, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> lol  That's why I never let a sativa get over 12" before putting in 12/12. Hope you have a 12' ceiling.
> 
> Good luck!


lol well I might be in trouble. I have 1 more foot I can raise the lights, atm I have been raising it 1 link (about an inch) when the top of the plants start hitting the reflector. They look awesome but I definitely took the 2 sativas too long into veg. I think they were 20-22 inches when I flipped the lights to 12/12. Oh well first grow mistake.


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## FuZZyBUDz (Nov 10, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> No, you're letting a few lower secondary branches confuse you, which I admit is easy to do. This goes to show you there are dormant foliar buds all along the "trunk" or stems waiting on the plant's trigger mechanism (hormones) to call on them to break out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


totally understand the doramnt buds part and cliiped those, and the ring around them i was curious y it does that too. i noticed those e othe day starting to bulk up


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## southern homegrower (Nov 10, 2009)

could it be forming that ring to support the weight of the buds it knows its going to produce. it kinda reminds me of a weld


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## FuZZyBUDz (Nov 10, 2009)

thats exactly wat i thought, but then i started to think, of how that would of mean they r acually thinking......then i triped myself out staring at my plants thinking''theyr thinking about me'' or maybe they r thinking* for* me.its about to b the poltergiest in here.


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## mjr99 (Nov 10, 2009)

I'm still a bit confused. My very bottom leafs are the tiny 1/4 inch things that appeared first upon germination. Then above those is a node (i think) but those leafs are single fan leafs. Then above that one are three nodes that have large 3-fan leafs attached. Is that node with the single fan leafs considered a true node? Did i fuck it up?


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## fanya (Nov 10, 2009)

mjr99 said:


> I'm still a bit confused. My very bottom leafs are the tiny 1/4 inch things that appeared first upon germination. Then above those is a node (i think) but those leafs are single fan leafs. Then above that one are three nodes that have large 3-fan leafs attached. Is that node with the single fan leafs considered a true node? Did i fuck it up?


You did just fine, that is what you wanted to do.

The single fan leaf is the first true node. 

You did what you were suppose to to get the 4 main colas.


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## mjr99 (Nov 10, 2009)

fanya said:


> You did just fine, that is what you wanted to do.
> 
> The single fan leaf is the first true node.
> 
> You did what you were suppose to to get the 4 main colas.




Hell Yea! Thanks.


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## Roland (Nov 10, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> The really thick scaffold branches are the main colas. You should be able to see 2 distinct "V's", one above the other, 90* to the other. The spindly branches came on quite a bit later, which they normally do no matter how you prune or train a plant. Those secondary branches produced superficial buds, as normal. Also notice the bulging ring, the callous like effect of the 4 main colas where they are attached to the "trunk", the node sites. Interesting effect, don't have a clue why the plant responded like that.
> 
> Tio


*Thank you .. !!!!*

*Plant growth being a process of cell division.... I guess those cell's were triggered to keep dividing ... and PRESTO ! haha*


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## mjr99 (Nov 10, 2009)

mjr99 said:


> I'm still a bit confused. My very bottom leafs are the tiny 1/4 inch things that appeared first upon germination. Then above those is a node (i think) but those leafs are single fan leafs. Then above that one are three nodes that have large 3-fan leafs attached. Is that node with the single fan leafs considered a true node? Did i fuck it up?



What do you think uncle ben? Is this correct?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 10, 2009)

mjr99 said:


> What do you think uncle ben? Is this correct?


Looks good to me. Put some lime in the coconut and call me in the morning. 

(Give it a chance to respond.)


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## mjr99 (Nov 10, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Looks good to me. Put some lime in the coconut and call me in the morning.
> 
> (Give it a chance to respond.)


Thanks. Hey, you should make your own strain and call it Uncle Ben's Ice.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 11, 2009)

mjr99 said:


> Thanks. Hey, you should make your own strain and call it Uncle Ben's Ice.


I do, served with a dose of single malt Scotch whiskey. 

If I had to say which was my best cross, it would have to be between a fine Peak19 male and a special C99 lady. Check out this male parent. Most folks don't believe me but this guy was only 3 weeks old from the time the seedling popped the soil's surface. The leaves are as big as dinner plates, reference the wine bottle. Feller had at least 7 tightly spaced nodes in this shot, check out the newest leafsets and how they lay over the previous ones.

Needless to say, he was passed around the lady's powder room quite a bit. 







UB


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## Roland (Nov 11, 2009)

what was the product .. the offspring named ? .. is it f1'd ? or ... f2 now ? ? avilable ?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 11, 2009)

Roland said:


> what was the product .. the offspring named ? .. is it f1'd ? or ... f2 now ? ? avilable ?


Gone. I sent most to a Cbay auction to help this guy who got busted and they were either confiscated by customs or stolen by RC or one of his gang.


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## lawhyno (Nov 11, 2009)

Hi Uncle Ben, your advice in the past has really helped me. Thank you very much. I am running a hydro drip system... do you know much about nutrients? if so, what nutrients do you suggest for flowering. I just finished week 1 and I want to make sure that I yield the biggest and most potent buds possible. Any feedback would be great. Thanks!


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## Roland (Nov 11, 2009)

aaahhhhhh................. bummer !


any special tips on re-vegging Ben ? Tryin' to get my Sour Diesel to re-veg .... I'm startin to worry that .. she ain't gonna make it .... 250 W cfl's on 24/0 ... thrive and 20/10/5 every other water ... 2 wks


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## fanya (Nov 12, 2009)

Hey UB, I was wondering what you though was the better of the two options for my plants. I'm Day 21 into flowering, Day 49 total and I'm pretty much out of space. The plants are probably almost 6 feet tall and today one of the main "colas" was touching the reflector and because I didn't get in right away when the lights went on it got singed a little bit. I have maybe 12 inches of room left to raise the light, probably more like 9 inches.

I feel these are my options atm and was wondering what you thought would be the best one or had a different suggestion. I relieze the importance of not stressing the girls at this point because I'm down to 3 plants and don't want to hermaphidite them. So ...

A: top her so to speak, once the lights get to max height and she grows into the reflector again, cut the top off and make her 6-12 inches shorter to try to finish stunting the colas height. 
B: do the stem, thumb, finger rolling thing to semi crush the stem and make the cola fall over maybe 45-90 degrees making it grow sideways or close to it. 
C: just put the stem as they grow off to the side of the reflector and just let the top finish growing into the ceiling and not get light or just whatever is reflected around.

Option A and B seem like they would create to much stress at this point so I'm leaning towards C but was wondering what you thought.

Thanks, your threads have been a great help so far.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 12, 2009)

Howdy, hate to be anal, but for growing questions/tweeks this would be a better place to post to: https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers-6.html



lawhyno said:


> Hi Uncle Ben, your advice in the past has really helped me. Thank you very much. I am running a hydro drip system... do you know much about nutrients? if so, what nutrients do you suggest for flowering. I just finished week 1 and I want to make sure that I yield the biggest and most potent buds possible. Any feedback would be great. Thanks!


1-3-2 ratio in general, see the above link where we are currently discussing this issue. 



Roland said:


> aaahhhhhh................. bummer !
> 
> any special tips on re-vegging Ben ? Tryin' to get my Sour Diesel to re-veg .... I'm startin to worry that .. she ain't gonna make it .... 250 W cfl's on 24/0 ... thrive and 20/10/5 every other water ... 2 wks


If in soil, get rid of the Superthrive drills, go to a 30-10-10 and put them on a 20/4 schedule. This is very unusual. Do you have enough leaves left for the hormonal change to occur? They should revert back to small juvenile single leaf or tri-leaf leafsets within 3 weeks. Don't rush it after going long days.



fanya said:


> Hey UB, I was wondering what you though was the better of the two options for my plants. I'm Day 21 into flowering, Day 49 total and I'm pretty much out of space. The plants are probably almost 6 feet tall and today one of the main "colas" was touching the reflector and because I didn't get in right away when the lights went on it got singed a little bit. I have maybe 12 inches of room left to raise the light, probably more like 9 inches.


Move it to the perimeter like I did below on a dalat sativa. I just let it grow right past the lights until I could free up some space and then went solo with a 600W HPS.



> A: top her so to speak, once the lights get to max height and she grows into the reflector again, cut the top off and make her 6-12 inches shorter to try to finish stunting the colas height.


That would work. I've topped many a sativa during flowering. You do what you have to do.



> B: do the stem, thumb, finger rolling thing to semi crush the stem and make the cola fall over maybe 45-90 degrees making it grow sideways or close to it.


Iffy



> C: just put the stem as they grow off to the side of the reflector and just let the top finish growing into the ceiling and not get light or just whatever is reflected around.


See my photo. That's what I get for not reading the whole post before responding.  Dalat's on the right.







Welcome, glad you're enjoying the thread.


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## mjr99 (Nov 12, 2009)

Hey ben, how much trimming do you do to the lower branches once topped this way and at what stages. Thanks.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 12, 2009)

mjr99 said:


> Hey ben, how much trimming do you do to the lower branches once topped this way and at what stages. Thanks.


I never trim branches. I mean, why would anyone want to remove the very plant unit that produces bud?


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## renyman (Nov 14, 2009)

Ben, if someone topped using this method but wanted to top a second time to keep the plant even shorter, where on the plant would you suggest he do this. Thanks alot.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 14, 2009)

renyman said:


> Ben, if someone topped using this method but wanted to top a second time to keep the plant even shorter, where on the plant would you suggest he do this. Thanks alot.


You do it at any place convenient to manage the height. All you need to remember is that you'll get output at the node below the cut.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 16, 2009)

While browsing thru my photos, I found a couple of post harvest shots showing the scaffold structure of a few sativas. 

* Haze male:*







* Zamal female:*


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## Mr.Oasis (Nov 17, 2009)

quick question senor Ben...ive got a couple plants growing that were topped as per your method (though they look like the skeletons u had on pg 1 with the "scaffold" branches coming out, now i have 8 growths off the main stem)

the question though, they have just finished their first week of flowering, ive got 3 girls with 2 youngsters untopped and sex-free thus far (keeping my fingers crossed they dont hermie like last time) def sat dominant, but i just noticed prior their last watering i lifted the pots (3 gal) to check their weight and noticed about 3" of roots hanging out the bottom growing through the drain holes, what do you recommend as far as transplanting? ie: how big should my next pot size be, will transplanting at this point stress the plant into herming....

they are approx 2 months old give or take a few days, bone and blood meal in soil along with an all-purpose 8-7-6 with micro's is the extent of the nuting, all main tops are about 14-18" high at this point

ill throw some pictures up tmr, its their bedtime rt now id hate to disturb them


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 17, 2009)

Mr.Oasis said:


> quick question senor Ben...ive got a couple plants growing that were topped as per your method (though they look like the skeletons u had on pg 1 with the "scaffold" branches coming out, now i have 8 growths off the main stem)
> 
> the question though, they have just finished their first week of flowering, ive got 3 girls with 2 youngsters untopped and sex-free thus far (keeping my fingers crossed they dont hermie like last time) def sat dominant, but i just noticed prior their last watering i lifted the pots (3 gal) to check their weight and noticed about 3" of roots hanging out the bottom growing through the drain holes, what do you recommend as far as transplanting? ie: how big should my next pot size be, will transplanting at this point stress the plant into herming....
> 
> ...


Sativas are prone to hermie, just goes with the territory. If indeed they are pot bound, go to the next size, 5 gallon, and finish them.

Good luck


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## Snak (Nov 17, 2009)

Ben-

Those pics are great. I have yet to produce a plant with 4 equally strong colas as shown in your picture. I personally think its a matter of lighting, but I'm also wondering if a plants health/vigor would determine whether or not the lower two branches take off as well as the top two? Most of my plants have two huge colas sprouting from the top two shoots, but the lower to shoots end up being just branches, and not really colas. The plants, I've assumed, are pretty healthy and haven't shown any signs of deficiencies, in fact they've turned way better than I could ever imagine and it looks like I will harvesting more than I planned for. Regardless, I'm curious as to why I can't get all 4 out.

Have you ever had problems getting all 4 up and running?


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## elduece (Nov 18, 2009)

Ok. I did it. My plants looks diminutive now. Seed leaf, first node, second node then cut -did I copy that right? Fuck, that took ALOT of courage.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 18, 2009)

Snak said:


> Ben-
> 
> Those pics are great.


Thanks, they pretty well tell the story. You can clearly see the small secondary shoots on the Zamal contrasted with the thick scaffold branches aka colas.



> I have yet to produce a plant with 4 equally strong colas as shown in your picture. I personally think its a matter of lighting, but I'm also wondering if a plants health/vigor would determine whether or not the lower two branches take off as well as the top two?


I doubt it. I have done this alot and have never failed to get the expected results. I have never done it to a sickly plant, they have all been vigorous and very healthy.



elduece said:


> Ok. I did it. My plants looks diminutive now. Seed leaf, first node, second node then cut -did I copy that right? Fuck, that took ALOT of courage.


I don't understand why folks are so hesitant to remove plant tissue. It doesn't hurt the plant, it only induces it to react. Whatever, good luck and welcome to another one of Uncle Ben's Paradigm Shifts. 

UB


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## Airwave (Nov 18, 2009)

I will be topping my plants between the second and third nodes later today. I hope to plant the tops in order to double the amount of plants. Is there anything different about planting the tops, compared to planting regular clones?


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## pitch (Nov 18, 2009)

I topped my indica dominants and a lone sativa dominant between 2 and 3. Only the 2 most vigorous (of 10) of the indica dom plants are showing strong growth at the 1st node. The sativa dom is also showing strong at both nodes. The one indica dom plant I topped between 3 and 4 is showing strong growth from the top 2 nodes and little from the bottom. 

At least from this small sample, topping the indica dom plants above the 2nd node may be a bit iffy to develop 4 strong colas unless the plants are very robust. Your example was about sativa's so I wonder if you've experienced any difference with indica dom plants.

If you are just re-directing the hormones by topping, can't you top between 3 and 4 node and discourage (pinch off) any growth from the first node to create 4 main tops?


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## Dragline (Nov 19, 2009)

Just want to compliment Uncle Ben on a great thread. I have some Hawaiian Snow germinating right now and will without a doubt try for 4 colas and hopefully control their height.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 19, 2009)

Airwave said:


> I will be topping my plants between the second and third nodes later today. I hope to plant the tops in order to double the amount of plants. Is there anything different about planting the tops, compared to planting regular clones?


A cutting is a cutting. No difference.



pitch said:


> I topped my indica dominants and a lone sativa dominant between 2 and 3. Only the 2 most vigorous (of 10) of the indica dom plants are showing strong growth at the 1st node. The sativa dom is also showing strong at both nodes. The one indica dom plant I topped between 3 and 4 is showing strong growth from the top 2 nodes and little from the bottom.
> 
> At least from this small sample, topping the indica dom plants above the 2nd node may be a bit iffy to develop 4 strong colas unless the plants are very robust. Your example was about sativa's so I wonder if you've experienced any difference with indica dom plants.


No difference. 



> If you are just re-directing the hormones by topping, can't you top between 3 and 4 node and discourage (pinch off) any growth from the first node to create 4 main tops?


Why would you want to do that?



Dragline said:


> Just want to compliment Uncle Ben on a great thread. I have some Hawaiian Snow germinating right now and will without a doubt try for 4 colas and hopefully control their height.


Have fun!


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## Stoney384 (Nov 19, 2009)

I have to say UB that this is the best thread that i have read on this hole site man!
and will definitly do this to my seedling coming up. THX


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## pitch (Nov 19, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Why would you want to do that?


Sorry, maybe it wasn't clear in my post? I didn't get vigorous growth from the first node in most of my plants. The two top nodes are going gangbusters, but the bottom node that was a single full leaf is a poor apology in comparison. The one plant that I topped between 3 & 4 where there was a 3 leaf cluster and a 5 leaf cluster is going strong from both nodes. 

So.... I'd want to do it to insure robust growth in all 4 colas.


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 19, 2009)

I thought I'd post a couple of pics.

Topping as soon as it took place:







Ten days later:







Ive got 4 more tops that are growing well underneath, but you can't see them. The sucker shoots at the first node are exactly that. They never managed to grow out like the rest, but I'm not complaining. If anyones wondering why there are three tops, its because she was trifoliate at the 4th node, which is where I topped here for 7 total that are growing well.


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## FreeLeaf (Nov 20, 2009)

mmm...It's day 34 of veggin, the girls are nice and healtyh but not 1 opposing leaf set on either of the 8 plants. It seems to grow 1 large shade leaf. Then comming out of the same node on the same side it produces a shoot with new groth. Go 2 inches up the stem and it produces the same thing in the same order yet on the other side of the stem. How common is this?


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## Katatawnic (Nov 20, 2009)

Are you asking if it's normal for the new growth shoots to appear at the top of the base of each fan leaf? 

If so, then yes, it is exactly how it's supposed to grow. 

*EDIT:* (How you worded your question is confusing, but what I've gathered after reading your post several times is that you're describing alternating nodes.)


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## First Time Growin (Nov 20, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node. The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count.


I am a new grower and kind of confused as to what you mean by this? What do you mean the 2nd "true" node? I have a photo here, I just took it minutes ago. 
I hope someone can reply soon as to where i should be cutting it? It has reached its 5th branch and is growing its 6th pair now


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 20, 2009)

The single bladed leaves are your first true node. Im sure you can figure it out from there.

It appears you have a trifoliate plant. Hopefully it'll turn out to be a female. Nice trait to have in a plant.


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## First Time Growin (Nov 20, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> The single bladed leaves are your first true node. Im sure you can figure it out from there.
> 
> It appears you have a trifoliate plant. Hopefully it'll turn out to be a female. Nice trait to have in a plant.


Honestly no, I am totally lost haha... All of the branches are growing new little leafs by the stem. I still don't understand how to identify "true" nodes, or what that even means? And yes it is a trifoliate, and also my favorite plant. 

hope to hear back from you, or someone else for my question. thanks all. peace2u..


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## Dragline (Nov 20, 2009)

First Time Growin said:


> I am a new grower and kind of confused as to what you mean by this? What do you mean the 2nd "true" node? I have a photo here, I just took it minutes ago.
> I hope someone can reply soon as to where i should be cutting it? It has reached its 5th branch and is growing its 6th pair now


Edit.. wrong info


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 20, 2009)

pitch said:


> Sorry, maybe it wasn't clear in my post? I didn't get vigorous growth from the first node in most of my plants. The two top nodes are going gangbusters, but the bottom node that was a single full leaf is a poor apology in comparison. The one plant that I topped between 3 & 4 where there was a 3 leaf cluster and a 5 leaf cluster is going strong from both nodes.
> 
> So.... I'd want to do it to insure robust growth in all 4 colas.


I'd top above the 2nd node, you know, the one above the juvenile single leaf.



Dragline said:


> Bottom arrow would be for two main colas. Top arrow would be for four. Uncle Ben and most others recommend cutting for four. Just in case I am wrong and have just made an ass of myself, don't cut until Uncle Ben or at least a few others confirm the picture is right.


Where the cotlyedons attach does not count. The single leaf node site does.

UB


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## First Time Growin (Nov 20, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'd top above the 2nd node, you know, the one above the juvenile single leaf.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What I am understanding is, I need to cut my plant in HALF!????? i am kinda wondering wtf? lol did you look at the pic i had posted UNCLE BEN?


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 20, 2009)

Firstime: It sucks to cut your plant in half because it looks like you've done a horrible thing afterwards, especially when yours is so tall, but half of you growth appears to be stretching to begin with  Or it could just be bagseed. My buddy has 5 bagseed plants in my tent and one of them has long internode distance, while all the rest of the plants have short internode distance.

If you topped above where your plant became trifoliate(2nd true node), you will end up with 5 main tops hopefully. Those little new leafs will each become like a new top that you previously cut off. Just check out my picture I posted above to see what you'll end up with if she's growing well. My plant grew 5.5 inches in 10 days after being topped. Im sure UB's plants grow even faster, but he's been at this for 40 years more than I .

If it were me...Id probably leave that girl untopped. Id love to see what a truly trifoliate plant can yield versus an topped plant, thats assuming you top the rest of your plants. Id be worried it'll revert to being normal if you topped it for whatever reason.


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## First Time Growin (Nov 20, 2009)

Okay, well then I will top my other plant and leave this one be. What do you mean by stretching? what does this mean? and why is it bad/ how does it happen?


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 20, 2009)

First Time Growin said:


> Okay, well then I will top my other plant and leave this one be. What do you mean by stretching? what does this mean? and why is it bad/ how does it happen?


Stretching ends up giving you greater distance between your nodes, and that means more popcorn nuggets instead of meaty buds. Your plants will automatically do this when you start flowering, but its not something we want in veg.

Do your other plants look like that? What type of light are you using? How close is it to them?

Btw, how tall is that plant?


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## First Time Growin (Nov 20, 2009)

Um yeah, both of my plants are(this is my first grow only got 2) pretty much the exact same, besides one being trifoliate... they got same hight (7 inches) and quite a bit of space inbetween each node. I am using one fluoro balast with 2 coolwhite's on it(48w ea) and also one CFL Ballast that has four 1ft CFL lights, dont know their wattage nor kelvin temp, but it is really bright and i added that 4 cfl ballast 4 days ago and the plants startted to grow alot more. i guess the 1 fluoro balast was defeniatly not enough. ( i know this but am on the shittiest of budgets) They are very close almost touching, except the CFL beacuse it produces a bit of heat... also their strain is G-Funk if that matters?


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 20, 2009)

Im gonna pm you and we can talk there. Dont wanna get this thread off topic.


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## First Time Growin (Nov 20, 2009)

Okay, I topped one of my plants, and took some photo's. Let me know if I did it correct and how it looks! this is my first time topping and i felt devestated cutting the poor girls leafs off ahha


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 20, 2009)

Looks like you topped high there. You'll get more than 4 tops if they all grow out strong.


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## First Time Growin (Nov 20, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> Looks like you topped high there. You'll get more than 4 tops if they all grow out strong.


That sounds great, unfortunately i dont understand what you mean... By 4 tops do you mean like 4 Main branches(which will produce cola's) and i thought this would only happen if i cut it much lower, like the tutorial was discussing on the first page.. look forward to ur reply.. peace


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 20, 2009)

If you cut between the first node and the second, you get 2 tops. If you cut between the 2nd and 3rd node, you will get 4 tops. Every time you go up another node, you get 2 more tops. Basically count how many "sucker branches" there are below where your cut is, and thats how many new tops you can end up with. You'll get quite a bit more since the plant is trifoliate. Between which nodes did you make the cut?


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## First Time Growin (Nov 20, 2009)

I didn't top the trifoliate because you had said it might cause it to revert back to being a 2 leafer instead of three. 
I topped my other plant and have the photo's (1 page before this one) I cut it right above the 6th node (guessing i toppd the 7th future node??)


Also i am even more confused now.




DaveCoulier said:


> If you cut between the first node and the second, you get 2 tops. If you cut between the 2nd and 3rd node, you will get 4 tops. Every time you go up another node, you get 2 more tops. Basically count how many "sucker branches" there are below where your cut is, and thats how many new tops you can end up with. You'll get quite a bit more since the plant is trifoliate. Between which nodes did you make the cut?


what do you mean? i thought on the first page he had said it will get 2 branches from usual topping but if you do the FIMming that is suggested it will get you 4 instead. are you saying the higher the node, it can surpass 4 main colas?


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 20, 2009)

Woops. Got confused for a minute bout which one was topped. Im thinking you may have gotten confused and topped from the wrong direction? You wouldn't be the first. You top above the second true node from the bottom up. 

You can definitely get more than 4 tops. My trifoliate plant has seven trops growing out. Would have been 9, but the sucker branches at the bottom never grew out.

BTW, UB doesn't recomment fimming. Not sure where you got that one from. Fimming is unpredicatable with how many tops you get.


First Time Growin said:


> I didn't top the trifoliate because you had said it might cause it to revert back to being a 2 leafer instead of three.
> I topped my other plant and have the photo's (1 page before this one) I cut it right above the 6th node (guessing i toppd the 7th future node??)
> 
> 
> ...


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## First Time Growin (Nov 20, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> Woops. Got confused for a minute bout which one was topped. Im thinking you may have gotten confused and topped from the wrong direction? You wouldn't be the first. You top above the second true node from the bottom up.
> 
> You can definitely get more than 4 tops. My trifoliate plant has seven trops growing out. Would have been 9, but the sucker branches at the bottom never grew out.
> 
> BTW, UB doesn't recomment fimming. Not sure where you got that one from. Fimming is unpredicatable with how many tops you get.


What do you mean "topped from the wrong direction?" like instead of going bottom up i went up to bottom? because all i did was cut the newest growing leafs at the top of the plant. so if you look at the pictures i have posted of the "after-cut" do u suggest i am to cut even LOWER?


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## Katatawnic (Nov 20, 2009)

First Time Growin said:


> What do you mean "topped from the wrong direction?" like instead of going bottom up i went up to bottom? because all i did was cut the newest growing leafs at the top of the plant. so if you look at the pictures i have posted of the "after-cut" do u suggest i am to cut even LOWER?


Are you aiming for *four main colas* like is this thread's title?

If so, then yes, you are to cut lower, above the second node as instructed.

If not, then you'll top where you prefer.


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## First Time Growin (Nov 20, 2009)

I see... I understand now... but why would i want to top less branches? isn't the point of topping for you get more main cola's? wouldn't topping higher result in more bud production?


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## Snak (Nov 20, 2009)

First Time Growin... If you have a half an hour, read this as much of this thread as you can. All these subjects have been covered in detail already, and I'm sure that your answers will be found faster that way.

Good luck


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm so confused.


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## Dragline (Nov 20, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Where the cotlyedons attach does not count. The single leaf node site does.
> 
> UB





DaveCoulier said:


> You screwed up your arrows there Dragline. Drop them down by one, and you're good. Let me know if you edit that picture, so I can edit this line. Dont want to confuse people
> 
> .



Talk about your all time backfires. I deleted the pic.


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## sugarless high (Nov 20, 2009)

how do i top 2 make small mother plants? PLEASE help!! a link would b nice?


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## Jack in the Bud (Nov 21, 2009)

Uncle Benny,

How you be? 

If I may let me tell you a bit about where I'm at and ask a question or two.

It's been 15 days since poking some seeds into the dirt (I did soak them between some wet paper towels for 24 hrs. first). Had a 93% germination rate. Got them close under the fluoros on 20/4 and enough of a fan generated breeze on them to keep them shaking around gently. Most appear to have two sets of leaves past the cotyledons so far. Had a few (but way far fewer than in the past) plants get so tall and spindly that they fell over but being as I started more than I could possibly finish out I just culled them out. Also culled out some runts due to space considerations. They haven't seen anything out side of the 60 to 70 degree temperature range. No CO2 suppliment or additional nutrients yet. The soil mix is the one you recommended to me some time back. Don't know if I got all the proportions of the various components to it just like you would have but I did get everything in there that you recommended including those soaked alfalfa pellets. 

My plan is to follow as closely as possible (with what I've aready got hardware wise) the 4 Cola method you started this thread about. 

The main thing I'm unclear on right now is how much longer you let the plant veg after pinching before you'd consider switching the light to 12/12 to begin forcing. I realize that there's the final height factor to consider (and I can't really accomodate any more than 4 foot above the container) but I should certainly think that the plant needs at least a week or two more of vegging after being pinched back so that it can develope that healthy 4 cola scaffold. 

As always, any comments, advice or guidlines you'd wish to share will be greatly appreciated.

Stay safe.

Jack


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## BurnDatShit35 (Nov 21, 2009)

ok so i have a plant wich i trained down it has about 7 or 8 little side branches and what ever. i notice thou what would normally be the top of the plant the main cola still growns more abudantly. If i where to top it now would all of the side branches become large colas assuming i took care of them porperly


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## BurnDatShit35 (Nov 21, 2009)

BurnDatShit35 said:


> ok so i have a plant wich i trained down it has about 7 or 8 little side branches and what ever. i notice thou what would normally be the top of the plant the main cola still growns more abudantly. If i where to top it now would all of the side branches become large colas assuming i took care of them porperly


 or should i just leave it


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## Snak (Nov 21, 2009)

BurnDatShit35 said:


> or should i just leave it


This has all been discussed in the thread before... 

You can definitely top right now, but you'll end up with a plant that is more bushy. Yes you'll have multiple tops, but they won't be "colas" so to speak.

My limited experience has lead me to prefer having a few big colas (or just one) instead of many little tops. Do what you please.


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## marijuanaFTW (Nov 22, 2009)

can u top a plant after you start its flowering cycle?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 22, 2009)

Jack in the Bud said:


> The main thing I'm unclear on right now is how much longer you let the plant veg after pinching before you'd consider switching the light to 12/12 to begin forcing. I realize that there's the final height factor to consider (and I can't really accomodate any more than 4 foot above the container) but I should certainly think that the plant needs at least a week or two more of vegging after being pinched back so that it can develope that healthy 4 cola scaffold.


That's your call, one I can't make for you. Your goal is to make sure that the plant has plenty of foliage and is well established (has a good root system after upcanning) before going 12/12.


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## Snak (Nov 22, 2009)

Jack in the Bud-

What I've done in the past is top the plants at 5-6 nodes, above the 2nd node, for 4 colas, just as the first page describes. It took approximately 2.5 weeks for the plants to get to that point. I continued vegetative growth for another 1.5 weeks, leaving me with plants that were roughly 7 inches tall. After flowering, my indica dominants stopped growing at just under 2 ft tall. 

The small plants contain an enormous amount of bud though. Although I'm having problems getting 4 identical colas, all the plants have 2 stocky heavyweights that are truly admirable. One of the 4 plants will be easily yielding me 2 ounces. For a newbie working with CFLs, that is more than I hoped for.

If space is an issue, I have to think this method will work better than you could ever dream.


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## Jack in the Bud (Nov 23, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> That's your call, one I can't make for you. Your goal is to make sure that the plant has plenty of foliage and is well established (has a good root system after upcanning) before going 12/12.


Morn'n UB,

Thanks, I believe I understand what you're trying to tell me. I don't mean to wear you out with all these questions it's just that I'm trying to get a handle on the subtelties of *your* growing paradigm.

I realize that my times to get to these various stages that indicate you do certain things is going to be different than yours. What I'm looking for is your reasoning behind why you do things and what indicates to you that you should do them.

For instance, what is it about the seedling that tells you that it's time to take it out from under the flouros and start giving it the more intense lighting? Is there some kind of guidline for this based on the number of nodes the plant has produced? 

This is the next judgement call I'm gonna have to make. I'm looking foreward to it because when I do get to the point when it's time to move them to the main grow space under the serious light it will give me the additional room to where I can do an upcan. I don't want to rush this step though. If it takes me longer than 20 days under the flouros to get to this point so be it.

Well, my morning brownie is starting to get a hold of me so I better wrap this up before I babble on at great length.

Take care.

Jack


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## Jack in the Bud (Nov 23, 2009)

Snak said:


> Jack in the Bud-
> 
> What I've done in the past is top the plants at 5-6 nodes, above the 2nd node, for 4 colas, just as the first page describes. It took approximately 2.5 weeks for the plants to get to that point. I continued vegetative growth for another 1.5 weeks, leaving me with plants that were roughly 7 inches tall. After flowering, my indica dominants stopped growing at just under 2 ft tall.
> 
> ...


Snak,

Very interesting, thanks for sharing that with me.

I'm at 17 days and almost all my seedlings have 2 distinct nodes with the beginings of the third one becoming visible. I'm hoping that with in the next 7 to 10 days I'll have 5 nodes on each. 

My plan is that when they get to 5 nodes I'm going to pinch them above the second node, upcan them from the 4x4x5 deep pots they're curently in to 8" diameter x 7" deep pots and then move them into my main grow space with the serious lighting.
Which in my set up consists of a 400 watt metal halide, a 150 watt HPS and 4 150 watt equivalent cfls.

My thinking at this point is that I'm probably going to give them at least another 2 to 3 weeks of vegging under 20/4 after pinching before switching to 12/12. Then once they indicate and I can get rid of all the males I'll have the room to do another upcan. All though from what I've been learning here lately doing an upcan at that point (after flowering has begun) makes it seem that doing an upcan at that point doesn't gain you all that much (root wise). But fuck it, it certainly won't hurt them.

It sounds to me like you're doing pretty good. If you've managed to get 2 oz. of cured bud off of one plant well, my hat's off to you. I can hardly wait until I can make that claim myself. I'm almost embarresed to tell you what my last average yield per plant was. It was only 9 grams (just shy of 1/3 oz.). But even with all the mistakes I've recently learned I'd been making what little I got was still some pretty stinky and sticky stuff. You might say I'm pleased with my quality but extremely disappointed with my yield. But I have the feeling that with what I've learned (and am learning)from uncle ben here in this thread I'm on the cusp of making a radical leap foreward in that area this go round.

Time will tell.

Jack


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## Snak (Nov 23, 2009)

Jack in the Bud said:


> Snak,
> 
> Very interesting, thanks for sharing that with me.


It sounds like you have a battle plan, and if you stick to it my guess is that it'll work. I wouldn't feel too bad about your first harvest's yield. I was expecting something along those lines but then I started reading this thread lol. 

This is my second grow, and things are going sooooo much better than my first grow. Like you said, what you learn makes a huge difference the next time around.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 23, 2009)

Jack in the Bud said:


> Morn'n UB,
> 
> Thanks, I believe I understand what you're trying to tell me. I don't mean to wear you out with all these questions it's just that I'm trying to get a handle on the subtelties of *your* growing paradigm.
> 
> I realize that my times to get to these various stages that indicate you do certain things is going to be different than yours. What I'm looking for is your reasoning behind why you do things and what indicates to you that you should do them.


I don't know how I can be any more clearer than what I said - "Your goal is to make sure that the plant has plenty of foliage and is well established (has a good root system after upcanning) before going 12/12."



> For instance, what is it about the seedling that tells you that it's time to take it out from under the flouros and start giving it the more intense lighting?


Think out of the box. You're stuck on the idea that seedlings are fragile. Here I am giving them full sun on a cloudless day, all day, as soon as they pop and then sticking them under lights to simulate 20/4. You can't do this if you have alot of wind as the new trunk is fragile for a while and of course cold temps doesn't help. But they love the high light. You should grow cannabis without any hesitation from start to finish. I've found that a stunted plant usually remains that way, some how, some way.



> Is there some kind of guidline for this based on the number of nodes the plant has produced?


When you have a robust plant with good foliage and root system......

If you want, start a journal starting from the get-go, link us and we'll chime in.

Good luck!

UB


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## Mr.GreenJeans (Nov 24, 2009)

Hopefully, I'm not going to make an idiot out of myself and ask what someone already asked here, but after reading the first 30+ pages, I couldn't find the answer, so I skipped to here. After I've topped for 4 colas I'm going to replant the top in a jiffy plug and use it as a clone (which will susequently get topped the same way). I want to make at least 2 additional clones. My question is, where should I take the cuttings from on the plant??? I've always been told to take cuttings from the lower branches, but is it ok to take a cutting from them after topping or should I cut from somewhere else (any recommendations?)?? Forgive my ignorance of cloning --- I'm trying to learn how to do it CORRECTLY, but I want to top for 4 colas also. My goal is to have 4 plants (1 orig and 3 clones) at a time in my growspace, preferably without using up my limited supply of seeds. Any input/suggestions/thoughts are GREATLY appreciated!!!!


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 24, 2009)

Mr.GreenJeans said:


> My question is, where should I take the cuttings from on the plant??? I've always been told to take cuttings from the lower branches, but is it ok to take a cutting from them after topping or should I cut from somewhere else (any recommendations?)?? Forgive my ignorance of cloning --- I'm trying to learn how to do it CORRECTLY, but I want to top for 4 colas also. My goal is to have 4 plants (1 orig and 3 clones) at a time in my growspace, preferably without using up my limited supply of seeds. Any input/suggestions/thoughts are GREATLY appreciated!!!!


Even though this thread is not about taking cuttings and rooting them, remember the terminal leader (the top) of a plant is active, while the lower branches may or may not be active at that moment. IOW, I think you'll get better results if you choose cuttings from the top of the plant. Like I've said, you won't get 2/4 main colas unless the nodes are opposing.

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 24, 2009)

Found another topped one that shows the dormant foliar bud output AND the cotyledons below the first node.

* C99XDalat*







Good info:


> In the case of dicot seedlings whose cotyledons are photosynthetic, the cotyledons are functionally similar to leaves. However, true leaves and cotyledons are developmentally distinct. Cotyledons are formed during embryogenesis, along with the root and shoot meristems, and are therefore present in the seed prior to germination. True leaves, however, are formed post-embryonically (i.e. after germination) from the shoot apical meristem, which is responsible for generating subsequent aerial portions of the plant.


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## Stoney384 (Nov 24, 2009)

Hey UB, So i top my plant for 4 main colas, I then can plant the top for a clone.
Can I then let that clone grow 5 or 6 nodes and top it and plant the top and as a clone again?
and have perpetual clones that way.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 24, 2009)

Stoney384 said:


> Hey UB, So i top my plant for 4 main colas, I then can plant the top for a clone.
> Can I then let that clone grow 5 or 6 nodes and top it and plant the top and as a clone again?
> and have perpetual clones that way.


Yep...........


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## Stoney384 (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks UB you the man. + rep.


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## Jack in the Bud (Nov 25, 2009)

UB,

Spent a hour or so wandering the aisles of my local Casa de Pot yesterday. 

While I couldn't find any of those Peter's products you've been mentioning I did pick up a couple of interesting things to have on hand for possible use. I still have more places to check around town to try and find the ferts you seem to favor.

I got a quart of Alaskan Fish Fertilizer (5-1-1) for $7.57. Also came accross a Miracle Grow liquid house plant fertilizer product that I hadn't seen before. It's got an 8-7-6 ratio. I grabbed an 8 oz. bottle of that for $2.95. If nothing else I'll be dosing some of my regular house plants with these things to try and get a feel for them.

Also spent some time looking over the various light fixtures they carry and was wondering if you've ever looked over what they carry and thought any of it might be good for indoor garden lighting.

They had some 2, 3 and 4 foot dual T-5 bulb flourescent fixtures that looked interesting and seemed reasonably priced.

Also wondered what you might think of some of the HPS fixtures they sell to be used for out door area/security lighting.

I've got a $100 or so in my budget to spend on increasing my light intensity in the grow space and have been fretting over what might be the best thing to spend it on. I've all ready got a 400 watt MH as a main light along with a 150 watt HPS and 4 150 watt equivelent cfls (in the corners) supplimenting it. The space is 5' x 7'. I still think it couldn't hurt to have some more supplimental light around the edges.

I also picked up several 4' x 8' sheets of 1/2" think white foam insulation panels that look a lot like the movable side panels I've seen in one or two of your pictures. Today's project is to take down the aluminum foil I've currently got on the walls for reflectivety and line the space with these foam panels. 

Jack


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 25, 2009)

Jack in the Bud said:


> UB,
> 
> Spent a hour or so wandering the aisles of my local Casa de Pot yesterday.
> 
> While I couldn't find any of those Peter's products you've been mentioning I did pick up a couple of interesting things to have on hand for possible use. I still have more places to check around town to try and find the ferts you seem to favor.


Try mail order, orchid supply stores.



> I got a quart of Alaskan Fish Fertilizer (5-1-1) for $7.57.


Good stuff, slow though.



> Also spent some time looking over the various light fixtures they carry and was wondering if you've ever looked over what they carry and thought any of it might be good for indoor garden lighting.
> 
> They had some 2, 3 and 4 foot dual T-5 bulb flourescent fixtures that looked interesting and seemed reasonably priced.
> 
> Also wondered what you might think of some of the HPS fixtures they sell to be used for out door area/security lighting.


You could use the shop lights for seedlings placing them so the leaves almost touch the tubes. Spend alot of time on researching hoods and don't get the inefficient Depot ones. A small horizontal hood with a gull wing insert of specular material is best. 



> I've got a $100 or so in my budget to spend on increasing my light intensity in the grow space and have been fretting over what might be the best thing to spend it on. I've all ready got a 400 watt MH as a main light along with a 150 watt HPS and 4 150 watt equivelent cfls (in the corners) supplimenting it. The space is 5' x 7'. I still think it couldn't hurt to have some more supplimental light around the edges.


You'd be surprised what 4 moveable white side panels will do. You don't need the extra light fixtures if you keep those panels close to the plants, always. 3 thinned coats of Behr's Ultra White latex or some other like a "brilliant white" latex works great as a coating.

You're welcome Stoney384

Good luck,
UB


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 25, 2009)

Hey UB. Since you've been around the block for so long, have you ever known of asian beetles eating foliage? I always get them in the house each winter, and I figured no problem. Everything Ive read says they eat insects only, yet Ive noticed a couple of leaves on my plants have been nibbled on. 

Ive been grabbing each one I can and flushing em down the toilet. Im sure theres no other insects in my grow tent nibbling on them. I check on em so often Id notice anything else in there.


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## NeedMoreHerb (Nov 25, 2009)

Hey I have been reading this thread and I am really interested in trying this. I don't know if you already answered this, but is yield increased a lot by having 4 main colas, or 2, or do you just get 4 colas that produce the same amount of bud as a really large single cola?


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## 12bonsai (Nov 26, 2009)

Hey Uncle Ben,

I previously asked about doing this with clones that have alternating nodes....I couldn't get them to go back to opposing.....Plan B.....

I plan on starting from seed again but I have no more seeds....So I was thinking  seeing I have to make some seeds and I have these clones would you mind passing on some info about what you think about masculinizing a clone to pollinate. That way I would get all femmed seeds.....This does fit into this thread in a way as, at least for me, I started too late and could only try this method of yours on clones and I have no boys....Only sisters.....So I could even masculinize with a sister or a mother clone.... 

It would really be cool to be able to sow the seeds and with relative confidence know your limited space would be filled with girls....and then I would be able to top for 4 colas starting from seed every cycle.....

Any help would be appreciated....Your opinion is highly regarded by us all....

12bonsai....


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 26, 2009)

NeedMoreHerb said:


> Hey I have been reading this thread and I am really interested in trying this. I don't know if you already answered this, but is yield increased a lot by having 4 main colas, or 2, or do you just get 4 colas that produce the same amount of bud as a really large single cola?


I think it is, or I wouldn't do it.



12bonsai said:


> It would really be cool to be able to sow the seeds and with relative confidence know your limited space would be filled with girls....and then I would be able to top for 4 colas starting from seed every cycle.....
> 
> Any help would be appreciated....Your opinion is highly regarded by us all....
> 
> 12bonsai....


It's been said that if you have a plant with just a few male flowers that all the plants will turn out female. That can also be a stress flag after flowering a plant for a long time. They usually produce a few "bananas" or incomplete male flower parts. It's nature's way of giving it up. I'd just buy feminized seeds or deal with it.

Tio


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## DannyGreenEyes (Nov 26, 2009)

Dear Uncle Ben,

I just started my first grow. 7 of my plants will be 2 weeks old tommorow (from clones) and I'd like to use the 4 cola technique if it's possible, especially since I'll probably have to put them in flower in about 3 weeks or so.

I read the first 6 pages then went to check my plants for "true nodes" and I noticed that these plants don't have many true nodes, at least I don't think. The plant with the most true nodes as I understand them is about 5.5" tall and only has 2 true nodes.

When I checked my plants I saw some weird stuff, like one plant somehow grew a branch beneath the dirt level and that branch is now sticking out of the ground right next to the plant.

Another weird thing that I saw were nodes with 2 branches coming from the same spot both heading in the same general direction (see pic). Is this considered a true node, or do the branches have to be opposite one another?

Also, is there any way to help your plants grow true nodes faster? (any way to promote true node formation)

One more, if the branches are opposite one another but not exactly level (a fraction of a cm off), is that still a true node?

BTW, great thread. +rep even though you don't really need it.


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## Dr.RR (Nov 26, 2009)

If you don't mind Uncle Ben, I would like to show my results of topping my babies. They have been topped for almost a month. I want to thank you for writing such an informative post and helping out so many people with your expertise!


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## doitinthewoods (Nov 26, 2009)

I did this to my red dragon mother, and somehow I ended up with 5 main tops, haha. It works. True story


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 27, 2009)

DannyGreenEyes said:


> When I checked my plants I saw some weird stuff, like one plant somehow grew a branch beneath the dirt level and that branch is now sticking out of the ground right next to the plant.


I'd say you have a challenge there, hah! Nodes are the points where the leaf petiole attaches. They are either opposing or alternating. There are dormant buds in the axis. That's what you have to work with.

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 27, 2009)

Dr.RR said:


> If you don't mind Uncle Ben, I would like to show my results of topping my babies. They have been topped for almost a month. I want to thank you for writing such an informative post and helping out so many people with your expertise!


They look great, especially the last shot.

Keep 'em green.......


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## southern homegrower (Nov 27, 2009)

Uncle Ben. how was your thanksgiving? wanted to say thanks for the advice on the books you told me to get. i am understanding these plants much better now. wish i would have got them a long time ago. keep them green and clean


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## cappeeler09 (Nov 27, 2009)

thanks for yur thread on topping uncle

i couldnt wait to try it

its cheese

have i done this right?

JUST BEEN TOPPED






4 DAYS AFTER I TOPPED









11 DAYS AFTER I TOPPED IT


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## Snak (Nov 27, 2009)

cappeeler09 said:


> thanks for yur thread on topping uncle
> 
> i couldnt wait to try it
> 
> ...


It looks like that plant was grown from a clone, with alternating nodes... If you read the thread you'll see there is some discussion about how the results will be much less predictable when you top a plant with alternating nodes.


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## cappeeler09 (Nov 27, 2009)

yer it was from a clone

when i topped it i expected the bit i cut (topped) would of formed 2 shoots coming off it so ther would of been 2 heads

but its just stopped growing wer i cut it and its just going bushy and opened up

is that what its meant to do

its my 1st time so i dont know m8


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## DannyGreenEyes (Nov 27, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'd say you have a challenge there, hah! Nodes are the points where the leaf petiole attaches. They are either opposing or alternating. There are dormant buds in the axis. That's what you have to work with.
> 
> Good luck,
> UB


 
So then a "site" with 2 branches growing from the same point and heading in the same direction (instead of being on the other side of the plant) isn't considered a true node?

I noticed something else this morning, that same plant has a low branch which itself has several branches growing from it. There's a chance that this plant has been topped before but I'm not sure. Is there any way a branch can grow from a branch or is this a 2nd main stem? (or do I just have some sort of genetic freak on my hands?)

Also, the plants with 2 true nodes have a decent ammount of plant material. Is clipping 5 true nodes important or is it only important to cut above the 2nd true node?


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## plaguedog (Nov 28, 2009)

DannyGreenEyes said:


> So then a "site" with 2 branches growing from the same point and heading in the same direction (instead of being on the other side of the plant) isn't considered a true node?
> 
> I noticed something else this morning, that same plant has a low branch which itself has several branches growing from it. There's a chance that this plant has been topped before but I'm not sure. Is there any way a branch can grow from a branch or is this a 2nd main stem? (or do I just have some sort of genetic freak on my hands?)
> 
> Also, the plants with 2 true nodes have a decent ammount of plant material. Is clipping 5 true nodes important or is it only important to cut above the 2nd true node?


I believe that is just the natural growth of the plant, it's normal for growth between the nodes as these produce more bud sites, clones, etc. Topping after the second true node gives four tops, it's been explained over and over again. The reason you wait for 5 or 6 nodes to top is to ensure good plant/root growth before the topping.


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## Jack in the Bud (Nov 28, 2009)

Snak,

Yesterday was day 21 from SID (seed in dirt). All seedlings had at least 3 true _opposing_ nodes with several showing 4. All had nice tight node spacing. Did an upcan yesterday to 8" diameter pots and moved them out from under the fluoros to the main space under the big lights. Still on the 20/4 light cycle. Started giving them some supplemental CO2. A 15 minute low flow squirt every 2 hours. Temps in the 75 to 80 range. Hopefully with in the next week I'll begin pinching them. I plan on waiting until I can see the beginnings of the sixth node before clipping them above the second.

During upcanning yesterday I noticed significantly better root development than I was getting in the past under a 24/0 light cycle. Of course some of this may also be due to using the soil mix UB recommended to me. I had just been using straight from the bag MG potting mix.

So far, so good. I think I'm well on my way to making a significant improvement over what I had been doing.

Jack


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## Snak (Nov 28, 2009)

Jack in the Bud said:


> Snak,
> 
> Yesterday was day 21 from SID (seed in dirt). All seedlings had at least 3 true alternating nodes with several showing 4. All had nice tight node spacing.


I think you mean opposing nodes? Alternating nodes do not protrude from the same area, they are staggered and occur after the plant has grown to maturity. A seed starts off growing opposing nodes.

Glad to hear things are going smoother than last round. Im one week away from harvesting my 2nd grow, and things look so much more spectacular than the first try. I'm literally in awe of these plants. I learned a lot this time too.

I'm going to try avoid transplants next round- I'd prefer to let the plant just grow, so I may stick to feminized seeds planted directly into 3 gallon pots. I had some issues with my transplant last time, and I really don't have any good space where I live to perform such an operation without creating a huge mess. 

I prefer to look at all these mistakes I made in the buddhist sense, that they are not negatives but positives- they point me in the correct direction and teach me what and what not to do in order to create the stickiest of the icky


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## DannyGreenEyes (Nov 28, 2009)

plaguedog said:


> I believe that is just the natural growth of the plant, it's normal for growth between the nodes as these produce more bud sites, clones, etc. Topping after the second true node gives four tops, it's been explained over and over again. The reason you wait for 5 or 6 nodes to top is to ensure good plant/root growth before the topping.


 
Thanks for confirming that the main issues are plant development & topping above the 2nd node. That's the way I understood what I read but I needed to make sure.

I think you misunderstood the other 2 question though. When I said there were 2 stems coming from the same site, what I meant was there's a stem with a second stem coming from where you would expect to see a bud site. I circled it in red in the pic.

And the last question is important since this plant may have been topped before. I haven't taken a pic yet, but let me know if you need to see one. The plant has a low lying branch, when you start to follow that branch you notice other branches coming from that branch. I need to know if a branch can grow a whole new branch, like trees do. I've never seen this in any other plant besides trees. But if a branch can't grow a branch then this plants already been topped and I already have 2 main stems.

Thanks again for the help +rep


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## Jack in the Bud (Nov 28, 2009)

Snak said:


> I think you mean opposing nodes? Alternating nodes do not protrude from the same area, they are staggered and occur after the plant has grown to maturity. A seed starts off growing opposing nodes.
> 
> Glad to hear things are going smoother than last round. Im one week away from harvesting my 2nd grow, and things look so much more spectacular than the first try. I'm literally in awe of these plants. I learned a lot this time too.
> 
> ...


Snak,

You're right, I meant to say *"opposing nodes". *My bad. I better go edit that if I can.

Jack


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## DannyGreenEyes (Nov 28, 2009)

Snak said:


> I think you mean opposing nodes? Alternating nodes do not protrude from the same area, they are staggered and occur after the plant has grown to maturity. A seed starts off growing opposing nodes.
> 
> Glad to hear things are going smoother than last round. Im one week away from harvesting my 2nd grow, and things look so much more spectacular than the first try. I'm literally in awe of these plants. I learned a lot this time too.
> 
> ...


 
Hi, I'm a newbie and I have a quick question about plant maturity. I just bought some clones and they have alternating nodes all over, does this mean the plant is mature? And if it is mature, what does that mean exactly? (reached a certain age, already flowered at least once, has been regenerated, etc...)


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## Dirtyboy (Nov 28, 2009)

I do not top mine and get way,way more yield. But what do i know ive only been growing for years and years.


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 28, 2009)

Danny, check out the fim thread by Mblaze. Your plant looks similar to what happens when you fim. They end up branching out crazy like a tree does. 

As for what alternating nodes means, it typically means its ready for flowering aka mature. Look it over and see if you can see any tiny pistils. They'll be hard to spot, so look close.


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## DannyGreenEyes (Nov 28, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> Danny, check out the fim thread by Mblaze. Your plant looks similar to what happens when you fim. They end up branching out crazy like a tree does.
> 
> As for what alternating nodes means, it typically means its ready for flowering aka mature. Look it over and see if you can see any tiny pistils. They'll be hard to spot, so look close.


 
Thanks, I'll check that thread out. I have no idea what fiming is...... yet 

Will topping still work on a plant that's been fimed?

I noticed that there was "growth" at the bud sites, not sure if pistils is a term for fem or both fem & male. I have a book that shows the difference in pics, I was gonna check them today to be sure.

Thank god the plant hasn't been regenerated, last think I want is schwag.

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it. +rep


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 28, 2009)

I see no reason why you couldn't top after its been fim'd, but its probably not necessary if its already branching out everywhere.


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## DannyGreenEyes (Nov 28, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> I see no reason why you couldn't top after its been fim'd, but its probably not necessary if its already branching out everywhere.


 
I'm having some trouble finding info on fiming. I round 3 threads that show how to do it, but none mention what it does exactly. Does it just create more branches & bud sites?

Right now I can top above the 2nd true node and only loose an inch or two of plant. I guess when you Fim the true nodes grow farther & farther apart. And 4 colas sounds really nice. 

I just hope that there's not too much stem below the 4 way split & that the fimming done doesn't cause soo many branches off the 4 new main stems that the plant wont stand by itself.

Can you confirm that fimming makes more branches & bud sites? If not, can you post a link to a good thread so I can learn more?


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## DannyGreenEyes (Nov 28, 2009)

Nevermind on that last question, I finally found the answer. It makes more branches and bud sites.

I still can't figure out why it's happening to new growth if I'm not fimming it myself. 

Once you Fim a plant once...... hell I can't figure out a good way to ask this. This is probably gonna sound cryptic but, once you fim a plant will the extra branching continue through the life of the plant, or will it just cause more branches at that site? (normally)


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## doogleef (Nov 29, 2009)

When you FIM a plant you take off most of the growing tip but not all of it like a normal top process. If done correctly, the plant will continue to grow from the cut site but branch heavily from there up. Topping takes off the whole growing top and forces all the growth the next node down where the growing tips still exist. 

Hope that helps


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## michael27 (Nov 29, 2009)

cappeeler09 said:


> yer it was from a clone
> 
> when i topped it i expected the bit i cut (topped) would of formed 2 shoots coming off it so ther would of been 2 heads
> 
> ...


that's what i did to 2 mother plants to see if it will grow more out the sides and less on the top after topped off i hope i didn't kill it man


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 29, 2009)

michael27 said:


> that's what i did to 2 mother plants to see if it will grow more out the sides and less on the top after topped off i hope i didn't kill it man


....all depends on how much blood it lost.


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## FuZZyBUDz (Nov 29, 2009)

UB,

i have done the 4 main cola teqn. 
and veged 52 days then flowered to find a girl. now i wanted just the four main colas to bud, no popcorns, so i trimmed the lower sites about half way down the plant...or more, its only been a week and a half flowering now, so i kno its early but basicaly....did i fuk up?


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## FuZZyBUDz (Nov 29, 2009)




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## DannyGreenEyes (Nov 29, 2009)

doogleef said:


> When you FIM a plant you take off most of the growing tip but not all of it like a normal top process. If done correctly, the plant will continue to grow from the cut site but branch heavily from there up. Topping takes off the whole growing top and forces all the growth the next node down where the growing tips still exist.
> 
> Hope that helps


 
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense +rep.

So if I top it I force the growth to the next node and since it'll be the second node it will redirect it's energies to growing 4 main stems instead of branching like crazy. Am I right in understanding it this way?

Another question just came to mind. If there are several alternating stems between the 1st & 2nd true nodes will the topping still work? And do I have to trim off all the branches between the 2 true nodes?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 29, 2009)

FuZZyBUDz said:


>


Ya done good!


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## DannyGreenEyes (Nov 29, 2009)

Great looking plant Uncle Ben. But everytime I see a pic of this technique there's never any space between the 2 true nodes. Has anyone ever tried this technique on a plant that has several alternating nodes between the two true nodes?


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## Katatawnic (Nov 29, 2009)

DannyGreenEyes said:


> Great looking plant Uncle Ben. But everytime I see a pic of this technique there's never any space between the 2 true nodes. Has anyone ever tried this technique on a plant that has several alternating nodes between the two true nodes?


There are opposing nodes and alternating nodes. Both types are "true" nodes. They're opposing when they're young, then become alternating as the plant matures. The reason UB referred to "true" nodes in this thread is to differentiate these between the cotyledons (seed leaves; the first leaves that appear on the plant). All nodes above the cotyledons are "true" nodes. (The cotyledons do dry up and die after a spell, BTW. They're the "embryos" from the seed, the only "leaves" that are contained inside of the seed, and provide the early seedlings with their food.)


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## DannyGreenEyes (Nov 29, 2009)

Katatawnic said:


> There are opposing nodes and alternating nodes. Both types are "true" nodes. They're opposing when they're young, then become alternating as the plant matures. The reason UB referred to "true" nodes in this thread is to differentiate these between the cotyledons (seed leaves; the first leaves that appear on the plant). All nodes above the cotyledons are "true" nodes. (The cotyledons do dry up and die after a spell, BTW. They're the "embryos" from the seed, the only "leaves" that are contained inside of the seed, and provide the early seedlings with their food.)


 
Thanks for the info +rep.

Sorry for the stupid question, I just misunderstood true nodes. I assume this doens't change if someone uses FIMing on the plant, though if there are branches on branches...... I guess I'll just have to give it a try and see what happens. lol

Thanks again.


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## Katatawnic (Nov 29, 2009)

I've never FIMed, but I'm sure the cotyledons don't factor in one bit when FIMing, due to cutting only the top growth instead of counting nodes and removing part of the plant from the trunk like you do with topping. 

I was a bit confused about "true" nodes at first too, but I had a book and the glossary cleared it up for me. Another way to help someone know the difference is that the cotyledons are not only the very first set of leaves on the plant, but they also are the only ones that don't grow larger after they've sprouted... they just exist to feed the seedlings, then they die off.


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## DannyGreenEyes (Nov 29, 2009)

Katatawnic said:


> I've never FIMed, but I'm sure the cotyledons don't factor in one bit when FIMing, due to cutting only the top growth instead of counting nodes and removing part of the plant from the trunk like you do with topping.
> 
> I was a bit confused about "true" nodes at first too, but I had a book and the glossary cleared it up for me. Another way to help someone know the difference is that the cotyledons are not only the very first set of leaves on the plant, but they also are the only ones that don't grow larger after they've sprouted... they just exist to feed the seedlings, then they die off.


 
I've never FIMed either, I just bought a couple of clones from a plant that was FIMed. lol

And I haven't had to deal with seedlings yet since I started with clones on my first grow. I plan on starting from seeds on my next grow because I don't know how many times these clones may have been regenerated. Plus I want to make some Polyploidys and starting from seed is the best way (in my opinion).

Thanks again for all the info. It's nice to run into someone who doesn't mind lending a hand.


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## Katatawnic (Nov 30, 2009)

NP at all! I've been given helping hands along the way here at RIU, and am more than happy to pass what I've learned to others. That's what RIU is supposed to be about! 

If you've started only with clones so far and not from seed, that explains your not recognizing cotyledons yet!  However, "regenerating" is quite different from taking cuttings from a mother plant that's been vegging all along. A regenerated plant is one that has gone into flower, then put back into veg light cycles and "revegged" so that it's again growing without flowers. Revegging can be stressful to the plant (although I've got a revegged plant that is very healthy and vibrant, no stress signs whatsoever), but keeping a healthy plant in veg for taking cuttings isn't stressful. Some growers say you can keep a mother months to a year or so, whereas I've known other growers to keep a mother for several years. I don't keep mother plants, myself. Instead, I take a couple of cuttings from each plant when I change the cycle to 12/12, and grow out those clones while the "mother" is flowering. Saves me lots of space, time, work, and nutrients.  I also often use what I've cut from my plants when topping for clones... want not, waste not!


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## mr773 (Dec 1, 2009)

*hey uncle ben i checked alot of threads you posted in and in my opinion you are true grower and by saying that, what do you use as a grower from start to finish. let me know thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 1, 2009)

mr773 said:


> *hey uncle ben i checked alot of threads you posted in and in my opinion you are true grower and by saying that, what do you use as a grower from start to finish. let me know thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


I use botany, standard horticultural principles, and common sense. 

Nice job Katatawnic


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## valhalla88 (Dec 1, 2009)

Uncle Ben,
Long time stoner first time grower...
Long story short...been buying some tasty smoke found a few seeds along the way but to pricey so ...you've heard it before..
I'm researching and getting through different methods and techniques...
I don't know the differences between most...fimming...topping...lollipoping...LST...vertical peretuals...splice fusing...
My question is this, do I wait for a certain height from the plant before cutting and going into flower or do I go by how many nodes and leafy growth @ internodes ?
Here is my plant just over 30 days vegging...
any comments or advice is more than welcome...
may I post my pictures UB?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 1, 2009)

valhalla88 said:


> Uncle Ben,
> Long time stoner first time grower...
> Long story short...been buying some tasty smoke found a few seeds along the way but to pricey so ...you've heard it before..
> I'm researching and getting through different methods and techniques...
> ...


Welcome to the thread. Feel free to post your pictures and read about the first 10 pages, at least.


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## FuZZyBUDz (Dec 1, 2009)

thanx UB, learned alot from you about HO MOANS! hahahaaa


a +rep...and a round of applause


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 1, 2009)

FuZZyBUDz said:


> thanx UB, learned alot from you about HO MOANS! hahahaaa


Gotta luv 'em!


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## mr773 (Dec 1, 2009)

*can you top a auto flower if so when!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## bigboyfly713 (Dec 1, 2009)

Hey everyone, im new to growing and in the same boat as Valhalla88. i think it is about 25 days into vegging wanting to know when to cut, how to cut, where to cut to get 4 colas. Please help. I have pics in my album. Feel free to add as a friend anyone that can help me.


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 1, 2009)

How about you read the first few pages of this thread and learn something? This thread isn't so you can come in and ask how to do it when its been answered a million times already. Stop being lazy and expecting everyone is gonna spoon feed you information that is readily available if you actually read the threads.

Now if you read the first few pages and are still confused, then by all means feel free to ask someone to clarify it for you, and we'll gladly help you out.

Btw, I looked at your profile and didn't see any albums..Where are the pics?


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## valhalla88 (Dec 1, 2009)

Awesome being here and glad to have another cool uncle...
so I am learning so much so fast that my retention is definitely getting flexed.
Anyway so I'm in Iowa and good smoke gets a little pricey...I got lucky and found a seed here and there..(expensive fuckers)
I get one germinated and transplanted...starts giving me trouble @ seed leaves...start drying and yellowing... under floros! so I panic &get on here . a couple complete strangers advise me and BAM REBOUND! Please add me and take a look @ my albums . I'm growing only the one and then going to cut @ 2nd true node...sound familiar?lol
With you and some mutual friends ...I believe this grow will harvest smoke better then how I bought it.(I hope)..And be the best it can be...
.....ya know the bud in my profile pic???....That is where the seed came from....


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## valhalla88 (Dec 1, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> How about you read the first few pages of this thread and learn something? This thread isn't so you can come in and ask how to do it when its been answered a million times already. Stop being lazy and expecting everyone is gonna spoon feed you information that is readily available if you actually read the threads.
> 
> Now if you read the first few pages and are still confused, then by all means feel free to ask someone to clarify it for you, and we'll gladly help you out.
> 
> Btw, I looked at your profile and didn't see any albums..Where are the pics?


I've read and researched and am not asking for anything I just asked if I could post some pics and to say I liked UNCLE BENS...thread with the pics to HELP people.
How rude dude.I asked a legitimate question on maturity..because each strain differs..I have lots of intrnode and node growth...lots and I'm on my sixth node ...not stretched ...the plant is extremely healthy...especialli from how it started...anyway...thought it might be a bit different then your everyday whatever...


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 1, 2009)

You sir are confused. My post wasn't directed at all towards you. It was directed towards bigboyfly.


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## valhalla88 (Dec 1, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> You sir are confused. My post wasn't directed at all towards you. It was directed towards bigboyfly.


 Then Sir you have my sincerest apologies


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 1, 2009)

valhalla88 said:


> Then Sir you have my sincerest apologies


All is well then, and please dont call me sir it makes me feel old. Save it for UB


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## valhalla88 (Dec 2, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> You sir are confused. My post wasn't directed at all towards you. It was directed towards bigboyfly.


 just a sir for a sir...lol


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## stonerbeans (Dec 3, 2009)

Woomeister said:


> Sorry to disagree but flowering times can vary due to human intervention ie. lst-ing, incorrect temps, nutes etc.



I agree man. There are many things that can effect flowering some natural, most human. EX. 12/12 will produce flowers faster than 24


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## Jack in the Bud (Dec 4, 2009)

Morn'n UB,

I'm at day 30 since SID. On day 27 I clipped everything above the second node. Most plants had 5 opposing nodes (some with the sixth one begining to show) but all had at least 4 (with the beginnings of a fifth). One interesting thing I noticed was that even before pinching about half of the plants had some pretty good secondary branches already forming at the first and second nodes while the other half only had just the tinniest indication that something was forming there. There was quite a distinct difference between these two groups. 

I was wondering at what point you begin considering feeding with some additional ferts? I know I could wait until the plant starts indicating it wants more by having the leaves yellow (or develope other problems) bur I'd kind of like to avoid any of that all together. In other words preventative feeding instead of damage control or corrective action.

I've already given them all a little taste of the Alaskan Fish Fertilizer (@1TBS/gallon) when I watered them on day 19. That hasn't appeared to have hurt them as far as I can tell. 

Also I've been reading on the various J.R. Peters Web sites. Particularly http://www.jacksclassic.com/ . I was wondering what your recomendation would be for one of the specific products found on these pages. I've been checking my local retail sources and haven't been able to find any of the Peter's products so I'm gonna have to do a mail order. Do you have any particular web based businesses you could recommend for that?

I checked the PH of that potting soil mix I made up and it's reading a nice neutral 7. I do however know from past experience that due to the alkalinity of my well water that by the end of the grow it will most likely have crept up to where it gets to be around 8. In the past I've tried to bring this back down with Aluminum Sulfate additions to the watering.

I've got a small commercial green house right down the road from me that supplies a lot of the vegatable and flower plants for local gardeners in the Spring. In talking with the owner I found out that she uses an acid based fertilizer as a method of counteracting the general alkalinity of the water in our area. Being as this woman always has some very healthy, strong and vibrant plants to sell every Spring I figure she must know what she's talking about. I should have just bought some of it while I was there so I had it on hand (or at least written the name down) but I didn't and now unfortunetly she's closed for the Winter. Do you have any thoughts on the acid based ferts? I've noticed that Peter's has some of them.

O.K. I'm begining to ramble on so......

(Kirk out)

Jack


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## valhalla88 (Dec 6, 2009)

Hello UB been awhile since Ive been on...kinda stressful ...I made my cut and tied down some branches to get some thicker growth . Here are some pictures from this morning...
I have researched and the best answer I can come up with is that where I made my cut...I should get two new branches for two more colas if this correct ...according to my research ...this should take a week to see the cut heal or grow??? any indications if I FUDGED it?
Again any comments appreciated...Thanks Uncle Ben...

https://www.rollitup.org/members/valhalla88-194212/albums/after-cut-tie-down-9706/


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## Jack in the Bud (Dec 6, 2009)

valhalla88 said:


> Hello UB been awhile since Ive been on...kinda stressful ...I made my cut and tied down some branches to get some thicker growth . Here are some pictures from this morning...
> I have researched and the best answer I can come up with is that where I made my cut...I should get two new branches for two more colas if this correct ...according to my research ...this should take a week to see the cut heal or grow??? any indications if I FUDGED it?
> Again any comments appreciated...Thanks Uncle Ben...
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/members/valhalla88-194212/albums/after-cut-tie-down-9706/


 
val,

Nice looking plant man. I'm expecting mine to be looking like that here in another week or so. Just curious but how many days old is that plant?

Unless I'm seriously mis-understanding something I don't think you'll be getting any _*new*_ branches. You've already got them, they're the ones you've got tied down. Cutting the plant where you did is just going to cause them to become a main cola and not remain a lower secondary branch lower down on the plant like they would have if you hadn't cut it where you did.

Jack


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## valhalla88 (Dec 6, 2009)

Jack in the Bud said:


> val,
> 
> Nice looking plant man. I'm expecting mine to be looking like that here in another week or so. Just curious but how many days old is that plant?
> 
> ...


It is 36 days old...I had some initial problems as a seedling ...once it received the proper lighting...it took off..
I am expecting more then 4 colas possibly 6-8...
I topped it above the third node after 8 nodes of growth, than went back and 
I have new branches under the canopy now about 3" long .Thats a inch a day... and it has poked through the other branches and is seeking the light !!!!


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## Jack in the Bud (Dec 6, 2009)

valhalla88 said:


> It is 36 days old...I had some initial problems as a seedling ...once it received the proper lighting...it took off..
> I am expecting more then 4 colas possibly 6-8...
> I topped it above the third node after 8 nodes of growth, than went back and
> I have new branches under the canopy now about 3" long .Thats a inch a day... and it has poked through the other branches and is seeking the light !!!!


val,

Interesting. My plants are at 30 days.

I don't know about the advisability of going for more than 4 main colas. There's got to be a point of dimishing return in there some where, where while you may get more colas they won't be the nice fat ones like we're all on a quest for.

I've got the feeling that if it were feasable to make one plant grow more than 4 main colas uncle ben would already be doing it. It'll be interesting to see what he thinks.

So how long do you think it will be before you switch to 12/12 to begin flowering? I'm just guessing at this point but I'm thinking mine will be vegging for another 2 to 3 weeks before I switch to 12/12. 

jack


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## valhalla88 (Dec 6, 2009)

I have no idea I have never grown ever in my life.
Maybe it's not for me...IDK but I thought I'd give it a try ...I'm definitely not trying to win any cups ...
I read a bit here and a bit there ...I guess this is my attempt by reading and thinking ...is to top my plant from further growth along the stalk ...main stem .....hell...see I don't even know a branch from a leaf...lol...so that growth will be distributed throughout the plant....which I have seen ....I also have read posts concerening LST which can give you thirty colas on one plant .Now I cannot say my 6-8 will work I have no idea funny you mention it. I've read and studied and never grown so we will see... some start to flower by keeping in mind how big they want their plant being at harvest...so if its a foot growth into flowering you can expect a 2 to 3' plant....
I have no clue wish I knew so veg until I know
here is a plant with lots of colas not sure if they topped it at the second node or not https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/251604-blueberry-lst-closet-grow-6.html


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## greenesthaze (Dec 7, 2009)

I'm in on this one i like the guide, i will be using this guide today i'm glad i found it!


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## Jack in the Bud (Dec 8, 2009)

Fuck oh dear man. It's -27 degrees out side where I'm at. Had to add a space heater to the grow room just to keep it in the low 70's. 

Jack


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## gobears4eva (Dec 8, 2009)

love this method,cant wait to top my baby!


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## Jack in the Bud (Dec 9, 2009)

valhalla88 said:


> make sure you don't forget to maintain your humidity,
> increasing your heat will dry out the air ...I'm using a wet towel and a humidifier...blizzard here right now in the mw


val,

My humidity has been running in the 60 to 70% range. To try and bring it down some I had the rooms exhaust fan set to run for a half hour every 4 hours. This exhausted thru a home made charcoal filter sitting in the attic. I checked it yesterday and the interior of the filter was one big frozen mess. I disconnected the 4" drier hose running to the filter and this must have let most of the rooms heat siphon up thru it last night because I had an overnight low of 62 in the room. (up until this point my overnight low during the 4 hour dark period had only been 71).

And then on top of that problem the 4" drier hose I had rigged up to pull cooling air from the attic to my light fixture got so cold that the humidity in the room condensed on it and ran down inside my light fixture. So I've had to disconnect that system and open back up the original vents that were stamped into the fixtures cover. 

Which is kind of good because now the light fixture puts more of it's heat into the room and makes the space heater come on less often. All though when the light was off last night between 2 & 6 AM and not adding heat to the space probably contributed to the temp dropping to 62 last night.

Looks like I'll be spending some time today making some tweaks and modifications to my set up to keep it more balanced during the coming cold months. But then isn't it the purpose of a hobby to give you some thing to putz around with?

In spite of these minor problems I must say that my babies are sure looking good. Most of them are getting real close to looking like that picture you posted of yours from day 36 as far as size and mass of foliage. I'm at day 34.

Several days a go I was thinking I'd be vegging for another 2 or 3 weeks before switching to 12/12 but now because they've been taking off so good since pinching I'm thinking it may only be another 1 to 2 weeks. Here in another week or so I plan on easing one out of it's container to get a good look at the root system.

Jack


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 9, 2009)

Guys, please take your conversations elsewhere. 

Thanks,
UB


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## Holamikey (Dec 14, 2009)

I've used your method and a couple others on some chemdawg and at week 8 of flowering, your method has created the best looking colas (aside from the natural plant, but there's only one) and I can't wait til the next batch (cut last week) will show their new colas! Thank you, Sir!


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## Mr.GreenJeans (Dec 14, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Guys, please take your conversations elsewhere.
> 
> Thanks,
> UB


I apologize in advance if this has already been asked, but after reading the first 75+ PAGES of this thread, I just couldn't take reading another "now where am I supposed to cut it?" post by people who never bothered to even read the first freakin' page!!! 


Anyway, I am VERY interested in your idea of harvesting the colas, then putting the plants back under lights to fatten up the lower buds, hence increasing the overall yield. My question is, on average about how much longer do you leave the plants under the lights??? I realize there are MANY variables involved here, but I'm trying to get a ballpark average figure. 

Also, how significant is the overall gain?? The concept reminds me very much of similar practices I have seen applied in fruit farming, and the difference in an annual crop can be very sustantial!

...and THANKS Uncle Ben, for putting up one of the first truly useful threads I have encoutered so far here!!! People need to pull out of the herd and try to learn what makes plants tick, rather than wasting $$$$ on snake-oils sold by those only interested in profitting from the ignorance of others. The levels of misinformation can be astounding at times!!!!!!!!


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 14, 2009)

Mr.GreenJeans said:


> I apologize in advance if this has already been asked, but after reading the first 75+ PAGES of this thread, I just couldn't take reading another "now where am I supposed to cut it?" post by people who never bothered to even read the first freakin' page!!!
> 
> 
> Anyway, I am VERY interested in your idea of harvesting the colas, then putting the plants back under lights to fatten up the lower buds, hence increasing the overall yield. My question is, on average about how much longer do you leave the plants under the lights??? I realize there are MANY variables involved here, but I'm trying to get a ballpark average figure.
> ...


I believe he lets the plant go for another 2-3 weeks afterwards. No idea on how much it increases yield.


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## Shackleford.R (Dec 14, 2009)

hello uncle ben! saw you on the texas thread talking about the choppas' thanks for the heads up. i was wondering if you could drop in on my current grow (link down below) and take a look at things. i'm planning on topping (properly this time, last grow wasn't so good) and i'm looking for advice! 


Shack


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## Mr.GreenJeans (Dec 14, 2009)

Thanks Dave!!!!!!!


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## donnie189 (Dec 14, 2009)

Good to finally hear this from an expert. I've pinched the top tassle before. I pinched the top tassle out completely.
I 'd like to understand you better. Is the top node #1?
I'll read it again, and see if I take in more info. Too blind to see the pictures. I'd prefer 4 colas over 2, right? 

Happy Holidays!

Donnie


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 15, 2009)

Holamikey said:


> I've used your method and a couple others on some chemdawg and at week 8 of flowering, your method has created the best looking colas (aside from the natural plant, but there's only one) and I can't wait til the next batch (cut last week) will show their new colas! Thank you, Sir!


Happy it worked out for you.



Mr.GreenJeans said:


> Anyway, I am VERY interested in your idea of harvesting the colas, then putting the plants back under lights to fatten up the lower buds, hence increasing the overall yield. My question is, on average about how much longer do you leave the plants under the lights??? I realize there are MANY variables involved here, but I'm trying to get a ballpark average figure.
> 
> Also, how significant is the overall gain?? The concept reminds me very much of similar practices I have seen applied in fruit farming, and the difference in an annual crop can be very sustantial!


Yep, same concept. You pick the apple when it's at the peak of perfection.

Leave it under the lights until you get bulked up buds. For me, that would be about 2 weeks. Amount of time depends on too many factors - size of plant, amount of leaves retained upon the first harvest, etc. Your mileage will vary. If you're one of the lollipoppers, having trouble retaining leaves until harvest, don't bother. I get around an additional ounce of dried bud, see pix, the second one being one of the lowest buds. 



> ...and THANKS Uncle Ben, for putting up one of the first truly useful threads I have encoutered so far here!!! People need to pull out of the herd and try to learn what makes plants tick, rather than wasting $$$$ on snake-oils sold by those only interested in profitting from the ignorance of others. The levels of misinformation can be astounding at times!!!!!!!!


You're welcome, and understand perfectly well this industry. Been trying to empower people to be their own master gardener for about 14 years.



donnie189 said:


> Good to finally hear this from an expert. I've pinched the top tassle before. I pinched the top tassle out completely.
> I 'd like to understand you better. Is the top node #1?
> I'll read it again, and see if I take in more info. Too blind to see the pictures. I'd prefer 4 colas over 2, right?
> 
> ...


#1 as in first to form.

UB


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## Mr.GreenJeans (Dec 15, 2009)

Lol. Nope, no lollipopper here --- that whole concept pretty much contradicts both logic and science, plus it totally goes against everything I learned as a child growing up on a farm (and don't even get me started on this ridiculous "supercropping" BS!!!). But, to each his own I guess!!! 
I _should_ be harvesting my first INDOOR grow here in a few weeks (my plants are still as thickly leaved and green as they were during the veg stage, and I hope to keep them that way until harvest), so I'm going to do the multiple-stage harvest and see how it works out. Just think of all of the perfectly good buds that the lollipop kids throw away --- sad when you really think about it.


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## Shackleford.R (Dec 15, 2009)

i really dig this staggered harvest concept. i grow under high wattage CFL (single 150W in a hood) should be ideal for my harvest. so you cut the colas down, then (for CFL growers like me) lower your lights to get all the other branch/popcorn buds?

sounds simple and logical enough to me! thanks for the guide UB!


Shack


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## Mr.GreenJeans (Dec 15, 2009)

Shackleford.R said:


> i really dig this staggered harvest concept. i grow under high wattage CFL (single 150W in a hood) should be ideal for my harvest. so you cut the colas down, then (for CFL growers like me) lower your lights to get all the other branch/popcorn buds?
> 
> sounds simple and logical enough to me! thanks for the guide UB!
> 
> ...


Yeah, I would think a CFL grower would REALLY benefit from that, even moreso than HID growers. Be sure to let us know how it turns out.

Good luck and good growing!!!!


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## Shackleford.R (Dec 15, 2009)

Mr.GreenJeans said:


> Yeah, I would think a CFL grower would REALLY benefit from that, even moreso than HID growers. Be sure to let us know how it turns out.
> 
> Good luck and good growing!!!!


oh for sure!! 

so far this grow has been a dream! good genetics/soil... no headaches! 
anyhow, if you want to check it out, i'm only in my 3rd week with 2 weeks of veg left.
it's the link in my signature marked "current"


Shack


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## jayc3k (Dec 15, 2009)

Hey UB, firstly big rep on this thread! I'm planning a SOG grow in a small closet with the following autoflowering strains- easyryder, dieselryder and la diva, but was wondering if your technique works on autoflowering plants??


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 15, 2009)

jayc3k said:


> Hey UB, firstly big rep on this thread! I'm planning a SOG grow in a small closet with the following autoflowering strains- easyryder, dieselryder and la diva, but was wondering if your technique works on autoflowering plants??


Yep.........


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 15, 2009)

Mr.GreenJeans said:


> Lol. Nope, no lollipopper here --- that whole concept pretty much contradicts both logic and science, plus it totally goes against everything I learned as a child growing up on a farm (and don't even get me started on this ridiculous "supercropping" BS!!!).


Yep, to each his own gimmick.



> I _should_ be harvesting my first INDOOR grow here in a few weeks (my plants are still as thickly leaved and green as they were during the veg stage, and I hope to keep them that way until harvest), so I'm going to do the multiple-stage harvest and see how it works out. Just think of all of the perfectly good buds that the lollipop kids throw away --- sad when you really think about it.


Good luck. Since you have alot of healthy leaves left, it will work out fine. Whatever you do, do not flush. Keep giving them the right foods to maintain the leaves.



Shackleford.R said:


> i really dig this staggered harvest concept. i grow under high wattage CFL (single 150W in a hood) should be ideal for my harvest. so you cut the colas down, then (for CFL growers like me) lower your lights to get all the other branch/popcorn buds?
> 
> sounds simple and logical enough to me! thanks for the guide UB!
> 
> ...



Have fun Shack!


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## Huh?? (Dec 15, 2009)

You don't flush before the first harvest?I understand that you want the plants to keep growing but doesn't the first harvest taste bad compaired to the ounce that you said comes from the second harvest?


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 16, 2009)

Huh?? said:


> You don't flush before the first harvest?I understand that you want the plants to keep growing but doesn't the first harvest taste bad compaired to the ounce that you said comes from the second harvest?


Heres something you may enjoy reading:

http://www.stonerforums.com/lounge/growfaq/1712.html

I can't tell you one way or the other. In about 12 weeks I can after harvesting and curing. Im gonna flush one plant and leave the rest alone. I would say a proper curing will impact taste and smoothness more than flushing can.

Try it for yourself and do a blind taste test with yourself and friends, then you'll never have to wonder whos right and whos wrong.

P.S. UB likes it when people experiment, so that they actually learn something rather than blindly follow what everyone says as truth.


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## valhalla88 (Dec 16, 2009)

UB,
I'm not sure if I'm on track or what .
I think I topped it wrong and went into flowering to early.
I went from the bottom up two nodes and chopped it .
took some cuttings as I wanted to try to clone...1 week later and not sure if cuttings are going anywhere. They still are green and I am keeping them moist .
Anyway I certainly value your opinion and consider your help a privledge...like I said its alive and I'm learning .
Thanks for any help.


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## valhalla88 (Dec 16, 2009)

Oh here are a few pictures this is the same plant in my albums.
Thanks again.
https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/283606-tell-me-what-you-think.html


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 16, 2009)

It looks like your plant has 4 main tops. What makes you think you did it wrong?


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## valhalla88 (Dec 16, 2009)

just unsure.... as it is my first.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 16, 2009)

valhalla88 said:


> just unsure.... as it is my first.


Just a case of anxiety. They look good to me.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 16, 2009)

Huh?? said:


> You don't flush before the first harvest?I understand that you want the plants to keep growing but doesn't the first harvest taste bad compaired to the ounce that you said comes from the second harvest?


Like Dave said, leave the Paradigm Parrots in their cage where they belong, and experiment. 

Go get your buddies, and have them explain in detail what the act of flushing does. I'm not talking sensory anecdotal evidence, the "everyone does it" drills, I want to know chemically and botanically what happens to those ions that were derived from the salts. 

Good luck,
UB


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## jumboSWISHER (Dec 16, 2009)

heyy, im on my first grow and i topped one of my plants, almost just for the experience of seeing it first hand. but did i snip it in the right place? thanks for ne reply 
n sorry if im just paranoid lol


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 16, 2009)

jumboSWISHER said:


> heyy, im on my first grow and i topped one of my plants, almost just for the experience of seeing it first hand. but did i snip it in the right place? thanks for ne reply
> n sorry if im just paranoid lol


If you were looking for four tops, that would be a big no. You topped pretty high on the plant. It already looks pretty well developed with side-branches, so no reason to top further down at this far in the game.


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## jumboSWISHER (Dec 16, 2009)

i was tryin for the 2 tops. and yea its on the 7th node. did i wait to long to get 2 tops?


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 16, 2009)

jumboSWISHER said:


> i was tryin for the 2 tops. and yea its on the 7th node. did i wait to long to get 2 tops?


To get two tops you top above the first node starting at the bottom of the plant, so you would top above the first set of single-bladed leaves. The cotyledons aka baby leaves are not the first set im talking about, so dont get confused by them.

You did wait too long. Most people wait till they have 5-6 nodes when they top for 4 tops. Id probably top when there are 4-5 nodes if going for two main tops. 

Dont worry about it though. You'll just end up with more main tops this way. You should end up with a pretty bushy girl.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 16, 2009)

jumboswisher said:


> i was tryin for the 2 tops. And yea its on the 7th node. Did i wait to long to get 2 tops?


read page one


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## valhalla88 (Dec 16, 2009)

Thanks for the assurance UB and Dave!


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## jumboSWISHER (Dec 16, 2009)

thanks dave. she is looking bushier everyday since i topped her  peace out


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## mlmmintz (Dec 16, 2009)

Can this be done on Autoflowering strains with positive results


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## Mr. Homegrown (Dec 16, 2009)

mlmmintz said:


> Can this be done on Autoflowering strains with positive results


Flip back a page or two, UB just covered it.


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## Huh?? (Dec 16, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> Heres something you may enjoy reading:
> 
> http://www.stonerforums.com/lounge/growfaq/1712.html
> 
> ...


I've done research on flushing and read that in the process,but thanks.
And I have experimented with it and IMO the plants that were flushed tasted better. But maybe I just thought that because it's embedded in my brain that they're supposed to.
Do you grow organic UB?


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## Blooddrunk (Dec 16, 2009)

this uncle ben guy needs to make a web site about growing lol hes been able to answer everyones frekin questions hahaha


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 17, 2009)

Huh?? said:


> I've done research on flushing and read that in the process,but thanks.
> And I have experimented with it and IMO the plants that were flushed tasted better. But maybe I just thought that because it's embedded in my brain that they're supposed to.


Yep. It's human nature to see what we want or expect to see, or what other's have told us we should see/experience. 



> Do you grow organic UB?


Yep, but I am not a purist.


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## Shackleford.R (Dec 17, 2009)

hey UB i'm topping my girls tomorrow. i'll post some pics to get your feedback.
i've read through this thread i don't know how many times. 
nice to hear this from someone with ACTUAL botanical knowledge.
thanks for this guide!!


Shack


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## Hebrew (Dec 17, 2009)

maybe somebody can help me....ok so I topped my mature female clone (alternating nodes from the jump)...about two weeks ago...scarred up where i cut...now new growth at that point...BUT...the branch right below cut, and the alternating one below seem to be assuming the "Y" position. Is that where the hormones went? Or just for now...and new growth tips will come out of cut eventually??? HELP!


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 17, 2009)

You must not have read the first few pages correctly. There is no new growth that comes from the topping site. What happens is that the lower side branches will assume that they're the head honcho in charge and start growing like the top you previously removed. 

Theres information regarding topping plants with alternating nodes in here you should read as well. I can't recall what it was since it doesn't apply to my situation, so good luck reading.


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## ievolution (Dec 17, 2009)

nodes on clones are a little different since its alternating in veg. any1 have pictures of where they topped there clones. i understand above the first or second nodes. i just want a picture to reassure my assumption on where exactly to top at. amazzing thread by the way. probably the most helpful ive read


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## secretforestgarden (Dec 18, 2009)

Mr.I said:


> how's the high from the sativas, honestly i think i never even tried something like that.


Not all sativas are the same and not all indicas are the same and not all hybrids are the same. But a _really_ pure sativa--like super silver haze or a Hawaiian variety is, well, for lack of a better term: exquisite. Imagine a hot air balloon inside your head that literally feels like it's lifting you towards the heavens. It's superb.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 18, 2009)

Shackleford.R said:


> hey UB i'm topping my girls tomorrow. i'll post some pics to get your feedback.
> i've read through this thread i don't know how many times.
> nice to hear this from someone with ACTUAL botanical knowledge.
> thanks for this guide!!
> ...


Glad you're getting something out of it. I have done alot of experimenting with cannabis. In fact, almost everyone of my gardens had something going on regarding some kind of testing. The topping to 4 main colas was a result of experimenting as was the so-called secondary harvest.

Here's an experiment I did with one of my crosses - O. Haze X C99, growing it outdoors under brutal conditions to test for:

1. Burn sensitivity to organophosphate sprays and record summer heat during the summer,

2. Rootbound condition and the use of a hydro food. I used Dyna-Gro foods 9-3-6. 

I destroyed the subject plants after I drew my conclusions. 

Note the retention of the tiny leaves at the very bottom, and the narrow sativa Colombian leaf type phenotype! 








And guess what? "It" was a "she." Classic pre-flowers from this little lady. 







Make it a great day,
Tio Bendejo


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## luca brazi (Dec 18, 2009)

Uncle Ben, thanks for all the info. I just signed up but I have been reading your advice for a while. I plan on implementing your topping technique. Aprox how many plants do u like to use under a single 1000w hps and a 600w hps, i know it will range with different strains and different veg times. Basically i want to know how u would use the combined squared footage of this light combo with your topping technique. I dont plan to veg long at all. At the moment i have ak47, dutch dragon, and superstar by D9, but i will be getting chocolope by DNA and G13haze which sound like they both will work good for this tech. I also want to keep it perpetual, im veggin at a different place and blooming only under this light combo. So unc how would go about harvesting bi-weekly the most medicine possible under these two lights. I will be using jacks classics when i run outta my current advance nutes. but till then im gonna suplement with nitrozime try to keep my girls green till harvest. thnks unc


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## Imaulle (Dec 19, 2009)

can someone give me a little guidance here, please. this will be my first time topping, and I'm a tiny bit confused with these plants. the leaves grow kinda one side at a time and very unevenly. so where exactly should I cut with these?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 19, 2009)

luca brazi said:


> Uncle Ben, thanks for all the info. I just signed up but I have been reading your advice for a while. I plan on implementing your topping technique. Aprox how many plants do u like to use under a single 1000w hps and a 600w hps, i know it will range with different strains and different veg times. Basically i want to know how u would use the combined squared footage of this light combo with your topping technique.


It plays no part in my plan. Don't get worked up regarding the watts/s.f., which is another forum farce, a crude way of stating how much watts one should have with a total disregard regarding the real issues - quality and efficiency of the hood, side reflecting panels, plant age, etc. It's what the plants are actually receiving along with ALL cultural factors that count.



> I dont plan to veg long at all. At the moment i have ak47, dutch dragon, and superstar by D9, but i will be getting chocolope by DNA and G13haze which sound like they both will work good for this tech. I also want to keep it perpetual, im veggin at a different place and blooming only under this light combo. So unc how would go about harvesting bi-weekly the most medicine possible under these two lights. I will be using jacks classics when i run outta my current advance nutes. but till then im gonna suplement with nitrozime try to keep my girls green till harvest. thnks unc


I guess you need to set up a separate veg and flower room. There are plenty of threads here on that.

Good luck,
UB


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## luca brazi (Dec 19, 2009)

Roger that unc. I was asking because someone told me that the closer the hood, (as long as its air cooled) the more dense the finished buds will be. and its my understanding that 1000w is good for about a 4x4 area. Anyway i have a seperate veg room. i was just sayin that the 1000w and 600w are both for flower. i will be moving the plants from the 600w to the 1000w to finish'em and keep it perpetual. How much space did that big girl that yielded 10 ounces take up? how many of those could u fit under a 1000w? and i have been reading all your forums so i am gettin what your sayin about her nutrition. and i was one of those persons loosing leaves at about 5 weeks. i noticed especially with my superstars they get super frosty trichomes all over like their parents sensi star at about 4 weeks. and a week later the frostiness deminishes followed by yellow leaves a week later. So im all over a new nutrition plan. and now im lookin into a new reflector for my 600w cause its kinda cheap lookin but i think my 1000w reflector is good. thnkx


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 20, 2009)

luca brazi said:


> Roger that unc. I was asking because someone told me .......


Someone told you eh? See my sig link regarding high light. Glad you asked to get another opinion. The most stupid thing I read, all the time, is the "heat on the back of the hand trick". That is a statement from a person who has no clue about a plant's light saturation point.



> that the closer the hood, (as long as its air cooled) the more dense the finished buds will be.


Total bullshit. It's the maintenance of chlorophyll and the abundance of leaves that drives production. If a 400W lamp 10' above your plants delivers that affect, then that's what you do, not blindly follow someone's advice at RIU. Sorry to sound gruff, but you need to put people on the stand and ask them "why?" when they make such black and white statements.



> and its my understanding that 1000w is good for about a 4x4 area.


Based on what factors? I could get what I want out of a 250W HPS in that amount of space. You must include the sum of the parts in your equation - type and efficiency of hood, f.c. actually received by the plants, plant nutrition, temps, day/night differential......lots of factors to consider.


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## luca brazi (Dec 20, 2009)

Roger that unc. i'll keep u posted.


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## Shackleford.R (Dec 20, 2009)

Topping is complete, pretty sure I was successful  the second i gave the girls a trim i looked and to my surprise "WOW! FOUR EQUALLY SIZED TOPS!" 
just above the second node is definitely the spot to trim. my girls have already bounced back and redistributed the hormones. all 4 tops are growing beautifully!!
I took another pointer from this thread and I'm attempting to clone the tops. I had 100% success rate last cloning attempt, fingers crossed i still got that juju.
If they clone I'm using them for "SICC" party cup competition.

Here is a direct link to the post if you want to take a look..
Topping/Cloning/Photo Post#188












Shack


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## elegentsmoker (Dec 21, 2009)

ive done it it works this is the best post for any grower shooting for huge yeilds not done yet keef you all posted on final yeilds


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## RootsOrganicMan (Dec 21, 2009)

would anybody know if this method works on tga's strain jack the ripper? sub says topping slows them down tremoundously. what do i do? thanks


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 21, 2009)

Ive never noticed any substantial slow down in growth when topping. I would venture to say it actually increases growth when you factor in the lower side branches now growing like main tops.


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## doogleef (Dec 21, 2009)

I would weigh in that topping causes stress. It's not a lot and most strains handle it with absolutely no problem but if you have something that is rather weak genetically because of breeding section process, poor cloning techs etc, it can really recoil when presented with any stress at all. I'm not saying that is the case on the strain you mentioned as I've never grown it myself. If you do indeed find a strain that does not like to be topped, I would toss it but that's just me. The really finicky strains do not produce a superior product IMO so why deal with the headache.


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## RootsOrganicMan (Dec 21, 2009)

Thanxs for the replies guys. I can not toss this strain paid 100 for a 10 pack haha. This finicky strain does indeed produce a superior product thats why I dont wanna fuck it up.


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## Shackleford.R (Dec 21, 2009)

THANKS UNCLE BEN!! I HAVE 8 TOPS NOW!! (two plants  )








Shack


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## bwood188 (Dec 21, 2009)

i think topping is the wrong way to go because any stress on the plant and you could stunt the plant. Another safer method that has no side effects at all is LST. Or low stress training. Basically tying the plant down with ropes and not physically doing any damage to it.



Pic is 1 plant 2 weeks into flower using this technique


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## bwood188 (Dec 21, 2009)

forgot to add has 68 main tops as of right now


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## RootsOrganicMan (Dec 21, 2009)

holy shit nice plant man you do good work!i might try this method thanks


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 21, 2009)

Your plants look nice Rusty. You should do a update a week from topping with some before and after pics so people can see it really doesn't affect the plants growth. 

Bwood: Thats one hell of a plant you got there. I looks like it has devoured its pot, and seeking out anything within reach to gobble up .


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## bwood188 (Dec 21, 2009)

RootsOrganicMan said:


> holy shit nice plant man you do good work!i might try this method thanks


Thanks!!! this is only under 400w as well. Imagine what it would do under 1000w. Any questions let me know. I'm thinking about doing a grow journal as well not sure yet.


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## bwood188 (Dec 21, 2009)

Bwood: Thats one hell of a plant you got there. I looks like it has devoured its pot said:


> thanks, its in a 65 gallon right now if i can remember right. Has 10 more weeks of flowering to go. Anyone now how to give reputation to people.


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## Shackleford.R (Dec 21, 2009)

DaveCoulier said:


> Your plants look nice Rusty. You should do a update a week from topping with some before and after pics so people can see it really doesn't affect the plants growth.


That pic is just TWO DAYS from topping. Topped them both saturday and took that pic just today! 

Topping DOES NOT adversely affect growth. If you have healthy, vigorously growing plants, they will bounce back within 24 hours. My girl had recovered within 8-12 hours from topping.

Just above the second node is the way to go!


Shack

PS The grow pictured is linked in my signature, the marked as (current)
I'm going on holiday tomorrow, my dripper system is taking care of them till friday. I start flower saturday!


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## bwood188 (Dec 21, 2009)

yes your right for the experienced grower you can get plants to bounce back like that but if something does go wrong like over watering or over nuting things could go very wrong. Just introducing another method which i believe increases plant yield. because your not losing any part of the plant, or chopping off any part. When you top you stop the main stalk upward growth, the nodes right below cut will separate into two main colas, why not tie it down from the start and end up with 20-30 main tops. Now im not saying that topping is a bad thing, if your growing a lot of plants in one area its great.


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## doogleef (Dec 21, 2009)

LST requires too much added veg time and is too time intensive with multiple plants. The point of this is to top, veg for a short recovery period, and flip the switch. 


Wow, I just realized this thread is 147 pages long. Such a simple technique and basic science draws a crowd.


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## Katatawnic (Dec 21, 2009)

I've done LST both ways now... full-out with about two to three weeks "extra" veg time, and first topping above the 2nd node and then tying those four tops but without vegging any longer. (Leaving the ties while flipped to 12/12, as of course the growth continues for a few weeks.) The second way added no veg time at all, and my "popcorn" buds are growing larger and denser than the plant next to them that's topped but not tied (same age/strain). I've got a friend that only grows 12/12 from seed, and he also tops and ties the four main colas; definitely no "added" time for him, but he did see very noticeable lower bud size/density improvement by tying just the one time.

I know that not everyone wants to bother with LST, but one doesn't need to add veg time in order to do LST. It's as simple or complicated as one chooses to make it.  I love the effects myself, whether I do it on its own or combine it with the four main cola topping.


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 22, 2009)

How much LST'ing are we talking about on the 4 tops? Bend them over till the top is like a candy-cane, or just enough to spread them open to allow the lower budsites to get more light? 

I may try this on my next grow. Starting next week, Ill have 5 untopped, 3 topped, and 1 fimmed all flowering. I may as well try some lst down the line.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 22, 2009)

Shackleford.R said:


> THANKS UNCLE BEN!! I HAVE 8 TOPS NOW!! (two plants  )
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Top of the day to ya! Nice job. Keep 'em green.  

When you finally upcan to finish them, bury them as deep as possible, up to the first set of healthy leafsets. If the lower leafsets are marginal (look crappy) pinch the petiole off with your fingernails at the "trunk", and then bury your plant up to the next higher leafsets. Now, tell me if you don't end up with fast growing monsters.  If you do this right, you'll double your root mass and of course plant health and yields. Caveat - if they're in a flowering mode, root production is put on the back burner. Timing is everything when it comes to tweaking your program.

Topping does not cause stress (not sure what that word means) nor does it increase veg time, at least not for me. If you're having problems, you need to look at your entire program, something's wrong. The weight of the colas should spread them apart naturally, like an open vase. By taking strips of women's hose, you can make a wrap around the four colas to get this kind of affect, see page one. 

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 22, 2009)

RootsOrganicMan said:


> would anybody know if this method works on tga's strain jack the ripper? sub says topping slows them down tremoundously. what do i do? thanks


Whoever sub is, he's wrong. 

What do you do? You be your own grower and watch out who you take advice from. Learn what makes a plant tick by growing and READING books on gardening, then you'll be empowered to make the right choices based on botany and common sense.

Good luck,
UB


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## RootsOrganicMan (Dec 22, 2009)

thanks for the reply UB and thanks for creating this awesome thread as well as others. subcool is the breeder that created jack the ripper i think he is a pretty smart man imo. i am going with ur method on making the cut at the second node. thanks again and keep up the good work!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 22, 2009)

RootsOrganicMan said:


> thanks for the reply UB and thanks for creating this awesome thread as well as others. subcool is the breeder that created jack the ripper i think he is a pretty smart man imo. i am going with ur method on making the cut at the second node. thanks again and keep up the good work!


I figured it was subcool. Good luck with your plants!


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## marijuana420medical (Dec 22, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Whoever sub is, he's wrong.
> 
> What do you do? You be your own grower and watch out who you take advice from. Learn what makes a plant tick by growing and READING books on gardening, then you'll be empowered to make the right choices based on botany and common sense.
> 
> ...


"listen to his advice" and "watch out who you take advice from" omg UB have you even grew this strain  UB HOW IN THE HELL YOU GOING TO TELL HIM THAT YES topping does effect the growth of some strains and 90 % of them if you top them AT the 6th node or before


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## marijuana420medical (Dec 22, 2009)

RootsOrganicMan said:


> thanks for the reply UB and thanks for creating this awesome thread as well as others. subcool is the breeder that created jack the ripper i think he is a pretty smart man imo. i am going with ur method on making the cut at the second node. thanks again and keep up the good work!


 IS THIS RIU POLICY OR WHERE DOES THIS TOPPING METHOD COME FROM IT IS .....might as well take a shotgun to a sprout imho


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## Mr.Oasis (Dec 22, 2009)

im not gonna say....^^^^THATS FOOLISH^^^^.....but i would be interested to know if you read even a few pages of this thread, primarily the first one which says to wait until the plant has 5-6 nodes and then top @ the 1st or 2nd....not just sprout your seed and as soon as that bad boy has 2 sets of leaves give it the chainsaw....are you just trying to get your post count up or something?? think/READ b4 you speak...


if i am incorrect then consider this my apology


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 22, 2009)

marijuana420medical said:


> IS THIS RIU POLICY OR WHERE DOES THIS TOPPING METHOD COME FROM IT IS .....might as well take a shotgun to a sprout imho


Stay out of my thread. http://www.starterupsteve.com/swf/posting.html?


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## Shackleford.R (Dec 22, 2009)

marijuana420medical said:


> "listen to his advice" and "watch out who you take advice from" omg UB have you even grew this strain UB HOW IN THE HELL YOU GOING TO TELL HIM THAT YES topping does effect the growth of some strains and 90 % of them if you top them AT the 6th node or before


you know you sound dumb right?
you my friend are what we call a troll.
you enter threads and disrupt polite discussion and debate with inflammatory statements.
your motives.. they are unknown to us. but we do know, we dislike you.







































Sorry for taking up space. I thought this was funny    


Shack


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## marijuana420medical (Dec 22, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Stay out of my thread. http://www.starterupsteve.com/swf/posting.html?


you enter everybody's threads talking nonsense then don't want no truth on your page....how ironic...the fact is toping a plant at the 2nd node is not a good idea rather it has grown to the 3rd or 8th or 70th node. sorry it will stunt the plant like no other for weeks on end maybe a month..if you wait till the 7th node min and only take the tinny tip then your plant will grow without much stress, energy redirected with ease you are keeping 14 main leaves 7 sets to grow new branches and now you have a plant with 14 tops min.l8r you can "lollipop" off some of the lower ones if you wish. or else don't top.
If you are outdoors your plant can grow over 50 full size tops if done correctly


----------



## Shackleford.R (Dec 22, 2009)

marijuana420medical said:


> you enter everybody's threads talking nonsense then don't want no truth on your page....how ironic...the fact is toping a plant at the 2nd node is not a good idea rather it has grown to the 3rd or 8th or 70th node. sorry it will stunt the plant like no other for weeks on end maybe a month..if you wait till the 7th node min and only take the tinny tip then your plant will grow without much stress, energy redirected with ease you are keeping 14 main leaves 7 sets to grow new branches and now you have a plant with 14 tops min.l8r you can "lollipop" off some of the lower ones if you wish. or else don't top.
> If you are outdoors your plant can grow over 50 full size tops if done correctly


you have no idea what you're talking about. you are aware uncle ben has a background in botany? topping a plant has no adverse affect on its growth. sure it "stunts" the growth, in the sense that it doesn't stretch upward as rapidly, but that is also the GOAL of topping. that and increasing yield.

have you tried his method? have you ran tests identical strains, medium, water, nutrients, light? do you have any hard, empirical evidence to back up ANYTHING you are saying?

i know uncle ben does, he has his grows and his photos to prove his method.
i too am using his method, and noticed that all 4 shoots were standing tall and at attention within a few hours of topping. looks to me like plants dont have a "recovery" period. in fact my girls are growing MORE vigorously now!

just because you grew a couple shitty little plants in your closet when you were 15 and in high school does NOT make you an elite grower my friend. do not pretend to have horticultural or botanical knowledge because you grew a little weed under a blacklight and got like so totally baked off it bro!!

are you familiar with the words botany and horticulture? seriously, just go away. you are not adding to the discussion, uncle ben asked you to leave his thread, respect that. if this were my thread i'd recommend you leave the forum.

sorry to play pitbull for you UB, this kid just gets on my nerves . snot nosed punk!


Shack


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## Shackleford.R (Dec 22, 2009)

marijuana420medical said:


> what the hell is going on over hear at rollitup are you guys medical growers or are you kids who is in charge of the stickys...who reads this stuff..does it go by view count...what is going on this is horse shit ....I mean maybe basic general growing how do you top a plant basics say for every nod you get 2 shoots .....advanced growers never would do this ....im serious as a hart attack my friend ....omg this is frustration at its highest. why not say poor rat poison on your plants to stimulate root growth when you top this way


HEY! JACKASS!








that looks like FOUR MAIN colas to me... as opposed to one central cola surrounded by lower, much smaller shoots.

i'm done feeding you.

i see you flaming other threads as well. did you join just to bitch at people?

you're going on my ignore list. i can't stand you.


Shack

EDIT: Just realized I can't find the ignore options, little help anybody?


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## Katatawnic (Dec 22, 2009)

Shackleford.R said:


> EDIT: Just realized I can't find the ignore options, little help anybody?


Go to the user's profile page, then follow the "map" I made for ya.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 23, 2009)

marijuana420medical said:


> you enter everybody's threads talking nonsense then don't want no truth on your page....how ironic...the fact is toping a plant at the 2nd node is not a good idea rather it has grown to the 3rd or 8th or 70th node. sorry it will stunt the plant like no other for weeks on end maybe a month..if you wait till the 7th node min and only take the tinny tip then your plant will grow without much stress, energy redirected with ease you are keeping 14 main leaves 7 sets to grow new branches and now you have a plant with 14 tops min.l8r you can "lollipop" off some of the lower ones if you wish. or else don't top.
> If you are outdoors your plant can grow over 50 full size tops if done correctly


You are nothing but an ignorant, bigmouth troublemaker. I asked you to stay out of my thread since you are not capable of bringing anything of value to the table and do not understand what makes a plant tick. 

You have been reported.


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## Shackleford.R (Dec 23, 2009)

Katatawnic said:


> Go to the user's profile page, then follow the "map" I made for ya.


thanks kat! long time no see. how is life? 



Shack


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## marijuana420medical (Dec 23, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> You are nothing but an ignorant, bigmouth troublemaker. I asked you to stay out of my thread since you are not capable of bringing anything of value to the table and do not understand what makes a plant tick.
> 
> You have been reported.


since reading comprehension is not your strong suit 

here are pics of plants that have not been brutally destroyed by this topping method 

If a pic is worth a thousand words Then I just spoon feed you the bible


----------



## marijuana420medical (Dec 23, 2009)

Shackleford.R said:


> HEY! JACKASS!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oh no not 4 colas 7 months veg stop the press stop the press ...sorry if I am not impressed


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## Shackleford.R (Dec 23, 2009)

I've reported him, he flamed me and called me a "tea bagger with cock in my mouth"

FYI - Tea bag is balls, not cock.

lrn2trashtalk


Shack


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## plaguedog (Dec 23, 2009)

marijuana420medical said:


> you enter everybody's threads talking nonsense then don't want no truth on your page....how ironic...the fact is toping a plant at the 2nd node is not a good idea rather it has grown to the 3rd or 8th or 70th node. sorry it will stunt the plant like no other for weeks on end maybe a month..if you wait till the 7th node min and only take the tinny tip then your plant will grow without much stress, energy redirected with ease you are keeping 14 main leaves 7 sets to grow new branches and now you have a plant with 14 tops min.l8r you can "lollipop" off some of the lower ones if you wish. or else don't top.
> If you are outdoors your plant can grow over 50 full size tops if done correctly



LOL

Have you ever done it? If your growth has stopped for a month there is something else wrong with your plant. It sure as hell isn't from topping. It took all of 5 days after I topped at the second node for the plants to be the same height they were before topped, with the added benefit of having 4 instead of one. Oh no, 5 days is really going to slow down my plants, I still flipped them to flower right as I have always done whether I topped them or not.


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## Stoney384 (Dec 23, 2009)

Hey UB you said before when harvesting, you would take the main colas off and put the plant back under the lights.
My question is how much longer do you leave the plant under the lights to bulk up the lower buds?
A day or two, or longer?

And i have to say i am going to do you topping technique every time.
My plant blew up in size in the matter of days.

here is a few pics.
the frist is when i topped it, sec. is a week after, thr. is another week after that.


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## Stoney384 (Dec 23, 2009)

marijuana420medical said:


> LOL SORRY BUT I MEANT THE TEA BAGS ARE BOUNCING OFF YOUR CHIN i SAID SOMETHING LIKE YOU ARE" like" A TEA BAGGER.. you Dont know whos dick is in the mouth your running... meaning UB's dick your mouth the censorship thing is what is funny though 2 infractions my first day when I was pointing out the fact that you are wrong.. not 1 but 2 funny guess I will have to find a better site from now on...one with people that grows pot with todays techniques and todays genetics and does it today not 20 years ago dadys plants


look at the pics. i just posted do they look stunted to you?
(page 149)


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 23, 2009)

Dont even bother responding to him. Just report his post and ask that he be banned. Ive already done so.


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## Stoney384 (Dec 23, 2009)

ok dave will do that


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## Cali chronic (Dec 23, 2009)

Uncle Ben Awesome and thanks for the resurrection of something that should be a sticky--- 
Question though? Say some one has been "trying to do that" and they pinch it back "clumsily"
you mentioned some auxins ___what are those or better yet is there a way to rectify a bad pinch back?


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## marijuana420medical (Dec 23, 2009)

Stoney384 said:


> look at the pics. i just posted do they look stunted to you?
> (page 149)


did the pics I posted look way bigger 4 vs 50 tops


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## marijuana420medical (Dec 23, 2009)

Stoney384 said:


> look at the pics. i just posted do they look stunted to you?
> (page 149)


yes they were stunted


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## Shackleford.R (Dec 23, 2009)

marijuana420medical said:


> LOL SORRY BUT I MEANT THE TEA BAGS ARE BOUNCING OFF YOUR CHIN i SAID SOMETHING LIKE YOU ARE" like" A TEA BAGGER.. you Dont know whos dick is in the mouth your running... meaning UB's dick your mouth the censorship thing is what is funny though 2 infractions my first day when I was pointing out the fact that you are wrong.. not 1 but 2 funny guess I will have to find a better site from now on...one with people that grows pot with todays techniques and todays genetics and does it today not 20 years ago dadys plants


Reported! Go Away!

you bash us, but you're not adding to the forum. all you do is talk about cocks all the time. please, share with us your vast grow knowledge and share photos of your OWN grows and tell us about the pounds upon perfect pounds of buds you have grown.

so far you have not shown a damn thing to prove you know what you're talking about.

you have been reported, multiple times. you will be banned soon junior.


Shack


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## Shackleford.R (Dec 23, 2009)

marijuana420medical said:


> did the pics I posted look way bigger 4 vs 50 tops


 did you grow them? 


Shack


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## thewinghunter (Dec 23, 2009)

id liek to thank UNcle Ben, my gorwth didnt seem stunted at all actually the plant i topped went bonkers and grew like 6 feet (yes i have the height to accomodate)

heres a pic... i almsot couldnt get all the colas int he pictures... but theres 4 main and like 4 less dominant ones, and one rather long one, idk why it so big, but it works!

thansk again UB!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 23, 2009)

Stoney384 said:


> Hey UB you said before when harvesting, you would take the main colas off and put the plant back under the lights.
> My question is how much longer do you leave the plant under the lights to bulk up the lower buds?
> A day or two, or longer?


Whatever it takes. 2 weeks is the norm for me.



> And i have to say i am going to do you topping technique every time.
> My plant blew up in size in the matter of days.


Yeah, I noticed that. Have fun.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 23, 2009)

thewinghunter said:


> id liek to thank UNcle Ben, my gorwth didnt seem stunted at all actually the plant i topped went bonkers and grew like 6 feet (yes i have the height to accomodate)
> 
> heres a pic... i almsot couldnt get all the colas int he pictures... but theres 4 main and like 4 less dominant ones, and one rather long one, idk why it so big, but it works!
> 
> thansk again UB!


Lookin' good guy!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 24, 2009)

I'm outta here for some holiday fun. Ya'll have a good one!

Merry Christmas and a prosperous NY,
UB


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## Stoney384 (Dec 24, 2009)

Yeah you too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## bestbet06 (Dec 24, 2009)

how many weeks from sprout or how many weeks before flowering do you top? or just when do you top


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## doogleef (Dec 25, 2009)

bestbet06 said:


> how many weeks from sprout or how many weeks before flowering do you top? or just when do you top



Read page 1.


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## Jack in the Bud (Dec 26, 2009)

Guys,

I'm on day 50 (day 7 since switching to 12/12) of a grow based on what I've been learning from Uncle Ben these last couple of months. Yesterday I identified several females and several males. In the act of depotting and disposing of the males I observed a very healthy and massive root system the likes of which I'd never achieved before (not even by the end of a grow).

I cut for 4 main colas 23 days a go. The upper two that formed at the second node are really going strong but the two that formed at the first node are really lagging behind. Under my old growing paradigm I'd be sorely tempted to remove them from the plant but since UB constantly stresses to grow for the maximum amount of folage I'm going to try and over come that temptation. All though I'll probably clip them off one of the plants just to see what effect it has.

Maybe this will work out where the top two main colas mature and get harvested and the lower two get left to flower a couple more weeks before harvesting. Over all though, at this point I'd have to say that my growing efforts have surely taken a serious leap forward.

Jack


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## Shackleford.R (Dec 26, 2009)

Here's a little before and after of each of my girls after 1 week (bare in mind they are suffering from a little stress, overwatered followed by underwatered, damn holiday travel schedule!!) 







*Here are Liza's 4 tops! Pssh.. and people say it stunts growth! *




















*Now for Gwen and her tops, she's the droopier of the two. Also it appears she has two dominant and two lesser tops, hopefully the 12/12 stretch will even her out*











Shack

PS Kinda pissed that annoying kid got banned already, would have been nice to throw this one at him.


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## riddleme (Dec 26, 2009)

Hey avid follower of UB's post here

Just got my grow journal updated (Goin Loco link) 

I topped at 2nd node and then topped those 2 again at 2nd new node

got 6 main colas going into week 4 of flower

Thanks once again Uncle Ben!


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## jumboSWISHER (Dec 26, 2009)

i topped my plant about 2-3 weeks ago. above the 8th node. everything has been going accordingly. 2 new tops from main stem have been growing great and the side branches look as if there main tops too. i counted 11 colas ( or what i believe to b colas) but everything i have read says " nothing will grow from where you cut the stem" the main stem had scabbed over and looked great but today i noticed that the main stem is still growing... has grown atleast an inch from last night. is my plant retarted or something? lol or did i get my info from a retard?? haha thanks for any input 
happy holidays everyone =)


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 27, 2009)

jumboSWISHER said:


> i topped my plant about 2-3 weeks ago. above the 8th node. everything has been going accordingly. 2 new tops from main stem have been growing great and the side branches look as if there main tops too. i counted 11 colas ( or what i believe to b colas) but everything i have read says " nothing will grow from where you cut the stem" the main stem had scabbed over and looked great but today i noticed that the main stem is still growing... has grown atleast an inch from last night. is my plant retarted or something? lol or did i get my info from a retard?? haha thanks for any input
> happy holidays everyone =)


That's just the plant's normal hormonal response. Top above the 8th node and expect output all over the place.


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## Stoney384 (Dec 27, 2009)

looking real good there shackleford.r
yeah they definitly are not stunted.

they grow fast after you top them.
and that little kid didn't know what the hell he was talking about, thats for sure.


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## jumboSWISHER (Dec 27, 2009)

alright, thanks ben  
so from these pics can ne one tell me if these big ass side branches are tops, or just big ass side branches?? and will this decrease my yeild? or will it still gain from topping? this is my first grow so sorry for such dumb questions.. i jus wanna kno wuts goin on for sure with my lil girl ya kno lol


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## riddleme (Dec 27, 2009)

Those are gonna be big assed side colas

Lookin Good


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 27, 2009)

How they end up is up to you. This thread only relates to inducing 4 main colas.


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## jumboSWISHER (Dec 28, 2009)

how is it up to me? can i manipulate it more to turn out how i want? n yea srry i figured i would rather ask a well respected pro like you rather then getting bad info from starting my own thread
didnt mean ta fuk witcha thread n go off topic lol


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 28, 2009)

jumboSWISHER said:


> how is it up to me? can i manipulate it more to turn out how i want? n yea srry i figured i would rather ask a well respected pro like you rather then getting bad info from starting my own thread
> didnt mean ta fuk witcha thread n go off topic lol


It's called "training". Your call regarding which way you want your plant to end up.


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## jumboSWISHER (Dec 29, 2009)

so in 7 days the 2 new top shoots have grown like crazy, but thanks alot UB ill deffinatly start reading up on "training"
peace out


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## t crizzlet (Dec 31, 2009)

Uncle Ben you are the shit. This was exactly the thread I was looking for. Thanks for the help!


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 1, 2010)

t crizzlet said:


> Uncle Ben you are the shit.


Wife yells the same thing all the time. 

Glad you enjoy it. Search on my name, I just posted a ditty on The Stretch yesterday you might find interesting.

UB


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## THE TARTAN TOKER (Jan 1, 2010)

can you top at the very beginning of flowering ?
is it only good for stop vertical growth at that late stage ??


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 2, 2010)

THE TARTAN TOKER said:


> can you top at the very beginning of flowering ?
> is it only good for stop vertical growth at that late stage ??


Dont top during flowering. Your plant will still grow taller even if you topped all the growth tips. Your internodes are still going to stretch, so you're really not accomplishing much. 

If you're having problems with height, try some lst.


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## Snak (Jan 3, 2010)

Well I've officially begun my 3rd grow and the good news is I have a 400w HPS instead of three million CFLs. I hope that the power of the HPS will balance out the growth of the leading branches of my topped plants. My last grow had plants that were topped for 4, but only produced 2 with lots of healthy side branching. All together the four plants gave me about 6.5 ounces, so with the HPS this time I'm hoping to net a half p if everything goes smoothly ::crosses fingers::

There is no doubt that once again, all the plants will be receiving the Uncle Ben treatment. You've mentioned before that you can use the tops as clones- I'm thinking of planting them in smallish pots (half gallon) and letting them root, and then put them into flower with the bigger topped plants. They will not receive as much light, i'm gonna keep them off to the side, so it will really just be more of an experiment than anything else. But I have to wonder- if cut those tops and cloned them, let them veg for about a week and a half then put them into flower, how much would they yield? Since I've never cloned a damn thing in my life, i can't even predict, but I'd have to guess that they'd give me at least 10g or so?

I know small plants aren't your style, Ben, but I wonder if you've ever taken the tops and cloned them, then put them into flower with their parent plants and if so, what did you end up with? 

Thanks again for this thread, I'll say it again- nothing here at Rollitup has increased my yield + results as much as this thread has.


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## ozh420 (Jan 3, 2010)

Hey Ben..


Can topping a plant be done at any stage of the veg cycle?


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## doogleef (Jan 3, 2010)

Read page 1.


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## ozh420 (Jan 3, 2010)

doogleef said:


> Read page 1.



 i did not see anything on the first page regarding but then again I am medicated


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## jumboSWISHER (Jan 3, 2010)

ozh420 said:


> i did not see anything on the first page regarding but then again I am medicated


hey man, i topped my plant above the 8th node. if you top at early stage of growth you will the 2 or 4 tops. if you top later into vegg cycle you will get many smaller tops. heres a pic of the plant i topped above the 8th node. you can top at any time befor you start flowering process


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## doogleef (Jan 3, 2010)

ozh420 said:


> i did not see anything on the first page regarding but then again I am medicated


Yea, my bad, i kinda came off like a prick there. . I was peeved at my Broncos choking away another good start 

Anyway, Swisher has it right, taking off the growing tip will induce growth at all other growth sites. The 2-4 main cola technique is for earlier on but you can take off the growing tip at any time b4 bloom. Grow on!


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 4, 2010)

Snak said:


> But I have to wonder- if cut those tops and cloned them, let them veg for about a week and a half then put them into flower, how much would they yield?


Not much, depends on the mass of the root system and leaves.



> Thanks again for this thread, I'll say it again- nothing here at Rollitup has increased my yield + results as much as this thread has.


Thanks, glad you're having great results.


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## autolemonhead (Jan 4, 2010)

Thanks for your time and dedication Ben, your a real inspiration to me. I want to help People for a living. Peace my friend


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## ozh420 (Jan 4, 2010)

jumboSWISHER said:


> hey man, i topped my plant above the 8th node. if you top at early stage of growth you will the 2 or 4 tops. if you top later into vegg cycle you will get many smaller tops. heres a pic of the plant i topped above the 8th node. you can top at any time befor you start flowering process



Ty sir bong shack for you!


doogleef said:


> Yea, my bad, i kinda came off like a prick there. . I was peeved at my Broncos choking away another good start
> 
> Anyway, Swisher has it right, taking off the growing tip will induce growth at all other growth sites. The 2-4 main cola technique is for earlier on but you can take off the growing tip at any time b4 bloom. Grow on!



Much appreciated and hope that bronco lasts awhile, i use to rock a 91 OJ SIMPON STYLE hahaha .. man i miss taking the top off that bad boy in the summer


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## Shackleford.R (Jan 4, 2010)

THANKS UNCLE BEN!!!


Shack


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## jumboSWISHER (Jan 4, 2010)

rusty shackleford! ahahaha damn, thats a great name lol 
and some badass topped plants =)


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 5, 2010)

Shackleford.R said:


> THANKS UNCLE BEN!!!
> 
> 
> Shack


Good job!

UB


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## seasmoke (Jan 5, 2010)

I couldn't read through 1500 posts,lol I'll fall asleep!

UB, i've popped some seed on 12/20, they are around 5-6 nodes, but are only about 4-6 inches tall. I would like to clone these tops, and if I take them now there isn't much to clone...Is there a maximum hieght issue here? I mean, can the p[lant get 12in tall before I top it back to the 2nd node? Thanx


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## autolemonhead (Jan 5, 2010)

hey seasmoke, take a peak at the plants above your post, they don't look like they would have been too tall at all when topped. Uncle ben is there a strain in particular that works the best with your method?


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## Shackleford.R (Jan 5, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> I couldn't read through 1500 posts,lol I'll fall asleep!
> 
> UB, i've popped some seed on 12/20, they are around 5-6 nodes, but are only about 4-6 inches tall. I would like to clone these tops, and if I take them now there isn't much to clone...Is there a maximum hieght issue here? I mean, can the p[lant get 12in tall before I top it back to the 2nd node? Thanx





autolemonhead said:


> hey seasmoke, take a peak at the plants above your post, they don't look like they would have been too tall at all when topped. Uncle ben is there a strain in particular that works the best with your method?



if you ACTUALLY read through the thread and look for your answers you would see that i topped my girls around the same height your plants are and i successfully cloned the tops. READ! it's amazing how much better a grower one could be if one would just read instead of demanding answers.

READ!! 


Shack


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## seasmoke (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanx for the replies guys, and believe me, I read, ALOT. It's just that I read the first 8 pages, and didn't see what I was looking for.
Shackleford, nice looking job you did, I don't believe that I need to ridiculed though. Believe me, I know answers are there, I just didn't have time for 1500 posts.


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## autolemonhead (Jan 5, 2010)

shackleford, what does this have to do with me? I was simply pointing something out. I asked my question because it is pointless to find a small answer in 150 pages when he made his point of the thread on the first page. I have other things i'm focused on reading right now, this is just a quick question to aviod shuffling through rif raf. If its a waste of time, I certinaly don't mind if he ignores me. Peace bro


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## Shackleford.R (Jan 5, 2010)

autolemonhead said:


> shackleford, what does this have to do with me? I was simply pointing something out. I asked my question because it is pointless to find a small answer in 150 pages when he made his point of the thread on the first page. I have other things i'm focused on reading right now, this is just a quick question to aviod shuffling through rif raf. If its a waste of time, I certinaly don't mind if he ignores me. Peace bro


nah your cool bro... just showing you were correct about my plants.


Shack


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## seasmoke (Jan 5, 2010)

I had to go back to pg 144 to find anything like what I want to do, even then Shackleford, you gave no particulares. How big, tall were they when you did this? From the pics it looks like they were quite big..8-10 inches tall or so. 5-6 inches wide. How old were they? mine are two weeks old or so.


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## riddleme (Jan 5, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> I had to go back to pg 144 to find anything like what I want to do, even then Shackleford, you gave no particulares. How big, tall were they when you did this? From the pics it looks like they were quite big..8-10 inches tall or so. 5-6 inches wide. How old were they? mine are two weeks old or so.


Should wait till week 4 or 5 allow the plant to get strong and mature a bit

it is ok to let it get 8 or 10 internodes before you top, in the end it is all really up to you and how you want to grow, it's all about learning & experience

There are no wrong ways in YOUR garden but know that there are deffinitly RIGHT ways


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## ThinkingGreen (Jan 5, 2010)

*Uncle Ben*, I have a question for you my friend. I just read this thread for the first time, I didn't however, read every bit. There is so much! 
My question for you is.. Looking at the naked plant you have in your demonstration, I see a split about 4 or 5 inches from the dirt. From the topping. And then there is normal growth in the center, and another split.. How in the world did you do that my friend? I just don't understand how? 
I have topped a plant before, and it only grew from the two alternate spots, not the main stem. How did you continue the main stem growth? Sorry for the long and choppy question, do you understand what I'm asking?


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## Shackleford.R (Jan 5, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> I had to go back to pg 144 to find anything like what I want to do, even then Shackleford, you gave no particulares. How big, tall were they when you did this? From the pics it looks like they were quite big..8-10 inches tall or so. 5-6 inches wide. How old were they? mine are two weeks old or so.


7 inches tall MAX! i was just barely pushing 5th node on one plant and the 6th node on the other was quite developed. I pinched back to just above the second node and thats where i am now. they were probably 2-3 weeks old when it was done. if you want more info about my grow, just ask silly  the link is in my signature grow marked (current)


Shack


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## seasmoke (Jan 5, 2010)

Shackleford.R said:


> 7 inches tall MAX! i was just barely pushing 5th node on one plant and the 6th node on the other was quite developed. I pinched back to just above the second node and thats where i am now. they were probably 2-3 weeks old when it was done. if you want more info about my grow, just ask silly  the link is in my signature grow marked (current)
> 
> 
> Shack


Sweet! thanks,  I'll wait a week or so. Yea, I'll check out yer grow. Thank you too, Riddleme.

I'm not a noob,BUT, this is the first time topping AND cloning the top...i've always fimmed, throwing away the pinched piece. 

I fimmed some WW and every-one of them grew out of control, just a massive bush that light can't penetrate....maybe if I top the clones istead of fimm, i'll control that.


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 5, 2010)

ThinkingGreen said:


> *Uncle Ben*, I have a question for you my friend. I just read this thread for the first time, I didn't however, read every bit. There is so much!
> My question for you is.. Looking at the naked plant you have in your demonstration, I see a split about 4 or 5 inches from the dirt. From the topping. And then there is normal growth in the center, and another split.. How in the world did you do that my friend? I just don't understand how?
> I have topped a plant before, and it only grew from the two alternate spots, not the main stem. How did you continue the main stem growth? Sorry for the long and choppy question, do you understand what I'm asking?


He didn't continue the main stem growth. You're somewhat confused. When you top above the second node, the two side branches at that node will become main tops. The same thing happens for the side branches at the first node. 

If you only got two main tops, then you probably topped above the first node, but sometimes topping above the second node only results in two main tops and two lesser tops. Ive had that happen on a plant or two so far.


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## aus2 canibasiva (Jan 6, 2010)

nice thread UB. hey could you top a 5 foot plant while its still in the vegetative state i know you can top it in veg but i don't know if it can be topped while being that big cos my girl is getting pretty tall and yeah i keep hearing " no you can only cut it at 5 or 6 node" so yeah any info on this would help me out greatly.
also with my 3 small indicas 1 that ive topped, all the same strain not sure what but nice smoke ive noticed that when i rub my fingers on the stem it smells alot stronger and its not even the strongest looking out of the 3 i wanted to leave the strongest looking one so long story short does it smell more because i have topped it causing the hormones to be redistributed back threw the plants stems.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 6, 2010)

For those still iffy regarding where the new output comes from, it's from the inside nook, the axis of where the original leaf petiole is attached to the "trunk". A dormant bud resides there, just needs a hormonal kick to get going. If underground, you'll get root output, same difference. See page one, photo one. If that's not clear, can't help ya.

UB


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## ThinkingGreen (Jan 6, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> He didn't continue the main stem growth. You're somewhat confused. When you top above the second node, the two side branches at that node will become main tops. The same thing happens for the side branches at the first node.
> 
> If you only got two main tops, then you probably topped above the first node, but sometimes topping above the second node only results in two main tops and two lesser tops. Ive had that happen on a plant or two so far.


Thanks for the response. I was slightly confused... to say the least.. I just couldn't comprehend how he was getting 4 tops instead of two.. I obviously didn't know about that amazing little technique..


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## Snak (Jan 6, 2010)

So....

The HPS is amazing. Either that or the 4-colas dealie doesn't work well with certain genetics. I'm going with the first one.

11 days from seed, and I can clearly tell that after topping that all 4 branches will be up and running strong. The undergrowth, so to speak, is much more prominent than my last two grows which used only CFLs for veg. 

I'mma very happy, having 4 colas on each plant makes me think I'll be adding at least a good 25% in to my harvest. The 2-cola girls I got before were sweet but 4 on each.... 

I'm interested- has ANYONE got a plant to grow 4 even colas using only CFLs?


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## spesh123 (Jan 6, 2010)

my plants are pretty big now just wondering is it ever to late to top a plant?? 

cheers peoples.


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## riddleme (Jan 7, 2010)

Snak said:


> So....
> 
> The HPS is amazing. Either that or the 4-colas dealie doesn't work well with certain genetics. I'm going with the first one.
> 
> ...


Check my Goin Loco link (grow Journal) I have 6 main colas (topped at 2nd internode, then topped both new branches) under just one 65 watt cfl with added T9 in the 5th week of flowering pic attached 

I completely follow UB's way of growing


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## Shackleford.R (Jan 7, 2010)

Snak said:


> I'm interested- has ANYONE got a plant to grow 4 even colas using only CFLs?









125W CFL .... i grow under single high wattage CFL does that count? 
Under 12/12 for 10 days first pre-flowers showed today.


Shack


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 7, 2010)

If you can swing it, ditch those CFL's in favor of a HPS, from start to finish too. Go back to page one and look at that old yellowish photo, it makes my point. It shows what I did with a Sensi Skunk topped to 2 main colas. They were grown from start to finish with only HPS, 600W. Again, I'm debunking the position held by most folks that you can't grow good weed unless you're supporting your favorite hydro vendor's lighting department. The conversion lamps, sockets, etc......it's all a bunch of hooey. Do the experiment and see for yourself. I'll post some pix of the HPS garden, resolution sux but you get the point.

*Younguns*







* Mo' younguns*














*
I think this was a double cola:*


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 7, 2010)

Shackleford.R said:


> 125W CFL .... i grow under single high wattage CFL does that count?
> Under 12/12 for 10 days first pre-flowers showed today.
> 
> 
> Shack


You can't argue with success! Lookin' muy bueno! Looks like your floor is painted white. 

Lighting is all about tweaks. If you look at my photos, you'll notice that the side walls look almost blinding (1st and 3rd photos). Yes, those are white panels/walls. I also would paint heavy plastic on the floor with a couple of coats of cheap white latex to reflect more light back into the plant. You can greatly increase light to the lower levels of the plant by strategically using reflecting panels, and most importantedly, making sure those reflective panels are placed against the plants. I used 2 movable panels and 2 stationary ones to do just that.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 7, 2010)

*Give to the United Way - a young double cola on its way to greatness:*







*Sensi Skunk Double cola ready for harvest. Notice the retention of the large, lower leaves?

Betcha you can't do that!!!! *






*
Another oldie a few days after topping: 








*


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## doogleef (Jan 7, 2010)

<---- Uncle Ben cheering section. :: I think I'm the one on the end. lol

HPS all the way.


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## MileHIGHclub101 (Jan 7, 2010)

hey ben i've got a lemon skunk that has started not too long ago and prolly have the best oppertunity to use your technique...but i was wondering are there certain strains that you might not recommend this for?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 7, 2010)

MileHIGHclub101 said:


> ...but i was wondering are there certain strains that you might not recommend this for?


No..........


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## Airwave (Jan 7, 2010)

I know that you're very experienced with horticulture as a whole, but how much of that experience was indoor growing? If it was a lot, then maybe you should start a lighting thread.


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## pitch (Jan 7, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> If you can swing it, ditch those CFL's in favor of a HPS, from start to finish too.


Agreed. My clone/veg area is under a 250 MH that seemed to do a fine job. Moving to the 600w HPS for 2-3 more weeks of veg, I was amazed at how much better they did.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 7, 2010)

Airwave said:


> I know that you're very experienced with horticulture as a whole, but how much of that experience was indoor growing? If it was a lot, then maybe you should start a lighting thread.


I did, at OG. I studied the lighting thingie to death.



pitch said:


> Agreed. My clone/veg area is under a 250 MH that seemed to do a fine job. Moving to the 600w HPS for 2-3 more weeks of veg, I was amazed at how much better they did.


That's a good combo. For me it was starting them under a 400MH and then adding a 600HPS to finish them out.


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## Snak (Jan 7, 2010)

Shackleford.R said:


>


Beautiful!

I wonder if this technique doesn't work well with specific strains then- All the Northern Lights plants I grew from marijuana-seeds.nl had 2 dominant colas. The one Mazar plant I grew had 4 strong colas before it went into flower, but I gave that plant to a friend and never got to see the final results.

Now I've got some LSD from Barney's Farm and White Widow from G13 and like I mentioned earlier, the growth at the nodes is very vigorous. I completely expect 4 colas on each of these girls. 

Nice job with CFLs too- this is my first grow using HPS, but my last grow worked out great using all CFLs, I got around 6.5 ounces from four plants and about 550w of CFL. I'm really enjoying the hassle-free HPS though- it seems vegetative growth is moving much quicker than before. 

And it looks like I get to top my girls here on about saturday/sunday. Also good news, the extra cash I have from not buying weed over the past month lets me buy a MUCH NEEDED digital camera, so I can post some pretty pics here soon.


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## pitch (Jan 7, 2010)

Snak said:


> Beautiful!
> 
> I wonder if this technique doesn't work well with specific strains .......


I don't think it's strain specific, it is however dependent on the strength of the first node where a single leaf set comes out. I tried this method on my last 6 plants and only 2 of them resulted in 4 main colas. One gave me three mains and the balance were only two.

My next batch I ignored the first node and went with the two nodes above the first node. I removed anything coming out of the first node and now I have 4 mains out of each plant and all are more robust than any of the first crop that had mains from the first node. 

I don't think it really matters which nodes you use for the 4, you're just re-directing hormone traffic.


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## Airwave (Jan 7, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> I did, at OG. I studied the lighting thingie to death.


Got a link for that thread?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 8, 2010)

Airwave said:


> Got a link for that thread?


OG is no more. Google is your friend. There's tons of info on plant lighting.


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## elduece (Jan 8, 2010)

Hello again Uncle Ben. medical420whatever can go ahead and suck a big one. 

I'll introduce to you my favorite one. My wife like to call he/r Jamie Lee Curtis. S/he is a bagseed variant, and s/he looks/smells sooo good! S/he is 35" tall in a 4 gallon container.


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## elduece (Jan 8, 2010)

elduece said:


> Hello again Uncle Ben. medical420whatever can go ahead and suck a big one.
> 
> I'll introduce to you my favorite one. My wife like to call he/r Jamie Lee Curtis. S/he is a bagseed variant, and s/he looks/smells sooo good! S/he is 35" tall in a 4 gallon container.


continued.........


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 8, 2010)

elduece said:


> continued.........


Lookin' good!


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## pitch (Jan 8, 2010)

Here are a couple of shots of a private strain we call Italiano. I've got 5 different phenotypes going. These are all at 5 weeks into 12/12. I give much credit to Uncle Ben for the success on my first grow.


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## llltimelll (Jan 8, 2010)

hey all....ddont really have time to read all 150 pages right now.........wut posts/page numbers (besides bens) show others (pics) that have successvfully completed this technique....love UB pics......has anyone been able to replicate these results consistently???


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 8, 2010)

llltimelll said:


> hey all....ddont really have time to read all 150 pages right now.........wut posts/page numbers (besides bens) show others (pics) that have successvfully completed this technique....love UB pics......has anyone been able to replicate these results consistently???


Are you talking about pics before topping and what they look like a week or two later? If so Shackleford has some pics 2-3 pages back. Check out post 1248 and 1294 as well.


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## True Stoner (Jan 10, 2010)

Can this be done to clones?? If so whens the best time to top them?? Thanks


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## Snak (Jan 11, 2010)

True Stoner said:


> Can this be done to clones?? If so whens the best time to top them?? Thanks


This has been covered about two dozen times in the thread.

You can but its unpredictable- Clones rarely have opposing nodes, so the outputs won't be even.


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## Ryando (Jan 13, 2010)

Sorry if this was already mentioned but i really couldnt bring myself to read 158 pages.. =/

The top cola which you are removing when you top a plant is reffered to as the "apical meristem" and the reason the top cola normally grows largest unless cut is because surpressive hormones are sent down the top cola to the other branches/growth which stops them from having an even share of the plants overall intake of energy, cutting the top cola off then redistrubutes the hormones more evenly, but the top cola has another use "The main shoot also has other functions. It communicates with photosensitive pigments, called phytochromes, located in the leafs." what i'm wondering is if we top a plant, does the plant lose the ability to what i just said?


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## Ryando (Jan 13, 2010)

I just also read this "The sensory pigments also inform the plant of how much sunlight a certain part of the plant receives, which enables it to relocate energy and growth hormones to where they are needed."


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## waz666 (Jan 14, 2010)

Just a thought for any newbies reading this, I am somewhat of a newb, I was a guerilla outdoor grower for years and now i've finally moved indoors. Anyways I got to the point of where I wanted more colas, so I had to decide between fimming and Uncle Ben's topping method. I went down the middle topped 4, fimmed 3. All 4 I topped have 4 main colas and I got clones from the topped material. My fimmed plants, one has 5 tops and the other 2 only have one each, hence the term fim, fuck I missed. The morale of the story is if your new and looking for easy consistant results Uncle Bens method is excellent and I would recomend it over fimming.


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## llltimelll (Jan 14, 2010)

UB or any one else......have you noticed considerable increase in yield with your topping technique....has anyone done side by side comparisons yet? plz help



also, wut is final size of plants (inches or feet) after topping when they are allowed to reach harvest?? and yes i kno strain, environment, etc. all matter.........


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 14, 2010)

llltimelll said:


> UB or any one else......have you noticed considerable increase in yield with your topping technique....has anyone done side by side comparisons yet? plz help
> 
> 
> 
> also, wut is final size of plants (inches or feet) after topping when they are allowed to reach harvest?? and yes i kno strain, environment, etc. all matter.........


I can't quite tell you on the first one. Ive currently got 3 topped plants, 1 fimm'd, and 4 untopped ladies in flowering at this time. These are all from seed, so results really wont mean too much, but its something to go on. Ill gladly let you know the results when their in. 

As for question two..that can't really be answered. Not everyone tops at the second node. Some top late in vegging, some early. Some people give their plants more veg time after topping, etc, etc..


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## llltimelll (Jan 14, 2010)

four cola topping, five or six nodes high, top at second node style.....expected results???


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## Airwave (Jan 15, 2010)

llltimelll said:


> four cola topping, five or six nodes high, top at second node style.....expected results???


If I'm reading your post right, I think you have it wrong.

Wait till the plant reaches 5 or 6 nodes, then top between the second and third node to get 4 colas. The reason you wait till the plant has reached 5 or 6 nodes is to allow the plant to put down a decent root system before you top. Also, you can then grow the tops as clones.


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## llltimelll (Jan 15, 2010)

okay ppl....plz quit splitting hairs wit mHe.....UB topping technique for four colas.....side by side comparisons....expected increase in yield?


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## REDI JEDI 420 (Jan 15, 2010)

are the two or four colas roughly the same size or smaller than what would be one large cola?


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## Airwave (Jan 15, 2010)

REDI JEDI 420 said:


> are the two or four colas roughly the same size or smaller than what would be one large cola?


As far as I know it depends on the strain.


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## riddleme (Jan 15, 2010)

REDI JEDI 420 said:


> are the two or four colas roughly the same size or smaller than what would be one large cola?


depends on the plant and how you grow it, it is all relative and no one can tell what an expected yield might be, there are to many variables


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## WhiteWiddow (Jan 22, 2010)

so if i was going to top this plant would i have cut at the red or blue line?


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## WhiteWiddow (Jan 22, 2010)

WhiteWiddow said:


> so if i was going to top this plant would i have cut at the red or blue line?


 i forgot the pic


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## doogleef (Jan 22, 2010)

Make mine Red, Johnny!


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 22, 2010)

WhiteWiddow said:


> so if i was going to top this plant would i have cut at the red or blue line?


Blue. See page one.


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## pitch (Jan 22, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Blue. See page one.


With all due respect to UB, I'd be inclined to cut at the red line and eliminate the first node growth. 4 main colas from more robust nodes seems like a good idea to me. In my limited experience, the first node can be produce weak growth.


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## WhiteWiddow (Jan 22, 2010)

so the blur would give me four colas correct?


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## Afka (Jan 22, 2010)

Topping at the 2nd node will produce something like this. (I also trained[LST] them open sideways.) You can see the 4 dominant tips, with lots of side shoots reaching the canopy due to the LST.


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## WhiteWiddow (Jan 22, 2010)

Afka said:


> Topping at the 2nd node will produce something like this. (I also trained[LST] them open sideways.) You can see the 4 dominant tips, with lots of side shoots reaching the canopy due to the LST.


 thank you huge help +rep


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## Shackleford.R (Jan 22, 2010)

i'll get some fresh pics up today of my topped girls. they are looking awesome.. technically speaking 4 colas each, though both plants seemed to have two more dominant colas.


Shack


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## PhillTubes (Jan 24, 2010)

heres 1 i toped althouth she has 4 heads plus a bunch of little ones ... Thanks UB

i topped at the 5th true node cause i didnt understand untill after i did it but hey looks good


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2010)

PhillTubes said:


> heres 1 i toped althouth she has 4 heads plus a bunch of little ones ... Thanks UB
> 
> i topped at the 5th true node cause i didnt understand untill after i did it but hey looks good


Whatever you did is working for you. That's a nice healthy looking plant with great looking fan leaves. 

Keep up the good work!


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## "SICC" (Jan 24, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> At? Is that below or above? The exact point is important reason why I spent a bit of time explaining the hormonal response thingie. If you topped above the 4th node, you'll get a bushy plant with the last output to occur at the lowest node, if at all. You will not get 2 or 4 main colas.
> 
> UB



I was wondering about this statement, i just topped mine at the 3rd true node, after growing them out to 6 working on 7, and all of them responded well, and i now have 6 shoots on each plant growing out of the nodes, wouldn't that make it 6 main colas? in not sure on how topping at the second will give you 2-4, but if you cut any time after that its just a bushy plant, i will post some pics tomorrow when i update my thread


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## Shackleford.R (Jan 25, 2010)

here they are 18 days into flower. thanks UB!


















Shack


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2010)

SICC";3703441]....and i now have 6 shoots on each plant growing out of the nodes said:


> here they are 18 days into flower. thanks UB!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy mole'! Damn fine lookin' plants cowboy! Don't change a thing.

UB


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 25, 2010)

[QUOTE="SICC";3703441]I was wondering about this statement, i just topped mine at the 3rd true node, after growing them out to 6 working on 7, and all of them responded well, and i now have 6 shoots on each plant growing out of the nodes, wouldn't that make it 6 main colas? in not sure on how topping at the second will give you 2-4, but if you cut any time after that its just a bushy plant, i will post some pics tomorrow when i update my thread[/QUOTE]

If you do get 6 main colas consider yourself lucky. I topped above the fifth node on one of my ladies because she was trifoliate at that node. The end result was 3 main tops, and all the lateral branches below never became main tops.


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## jumboSWISHER (Jan 25, 2010)

i topped at the 8th node and have 11 tops. a couple of em have 2 tops coming outta one node, like one big sidebranch that forks into 2 big colas. IMO i like topping at the 6th-10th node. keeps ya guessing on the end results but makes you happy everytime  lol


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## DIRTHAWKER (Jan 25, 2010)

This blacberry kush strain came to me as a clone, it has heavy thick staggered branching from the very bottom of the plant. What would be the best way to maximize the yield with this type? It seems that lolipoping or topping wouldnt work?

The only way that i can think of, is to just flower it as is and give it plenty of space between other plants. Ive grown this strain out before with lots of space and it yielded 6.6 ozs off of one plant. I also grew it in a sog setup and only yielded 14ozs from 16 plants, under 1k 4x4 tray.

Im thinking maybe run 8 plants staggered in my 4x4 tray under a 1k next round.

any advice.....uncle? or anyone?


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## Cereall (Jan 26, 2010)

Hello all

i am looking to try this and have been reading A LOT from this thread but just confused as to the "true node" and when to top

i have never topped before and usually just let them go natural

well, time to adapt and try a few things... so could someone please let me know if my plants are ready to be topped of if it isnt the 2nd TRUE NODE

thanks a bunch


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## DTR (Jan 26, 2010)

looks like 1 node but you need 5~6 before you top above the 2nd true node so that you have some decent roots first at least thats what i got from reading


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## doogleef (Jan 26, 2010)

You are just starting your 2nd true node. Wait awhile.


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## Cereall (Jan 26, 2010)

Awesome. I wasn't sure with the "true" part Well I plan on letting them grow but at least now know where to chop it off And why wait till 5-6 nodes taller? Just for better root growth?


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## DTR (Jan 26, 2010)

sorry im wrong i had to read it again post#19 UB says By allowing the plant to get a good start, which occurs with some leaf material from say......6 nodes (opposing leafsets) as opposed to 2, you're just giving it a better jump-start. You can use the cutting as a clone.


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 26, 2010)

Cereall, the black line is where you would cut to get 4 main tops.


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## Cereall (Jan 26, 2010)

thanks guys for all the help, and the specific picture

i'll give these babies another couple of weeks and they should grow quite a bit while vegging and then cut once it reached 5-6 nodes like suggested

THANKS and cant wait to post some more pictures once they start getting a bit bigger


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2010)

Nice job Dave. 

I may be seeing things, but if you look hard enough, you can see the tiny little foliar buds in the axis of where the leaf petiole attaches to the trunk. Those are your future 4 main colas. You're inducing 4 trunks instead of one. The oval leaves below are the embryo's endosperm, or food storage units. The reserves will be used up in a week or two, shrivel and drop off.


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## NavySupra (Jan 27, 2010)

I've got one 4 cola plant and one 7 or 8 cola plant about 1.5wks into flowering and the silly things are getting too tall already. I wonder how much more vertical growth there is going to be before they start to hit the light...


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2010)

NavySupra said:


> I've got one 4 cola plant and one 7 or 8 cola plant about 1.5wks into flowering and the silly things are getting too tall already. I wonder how much more vertical growth there is going to be before they start to hit the light...


A 60/40 ratio is pretty accurate with 60% of the total guesstimated flowering time being the stretch and 40% bulking up. Plan on raising the light, topping during flowering, or letting it go right past the light. I've done 'em all.

Any mail yet?

UB


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## Cereall (Jan 27, 2010)

Little off topic of topping, but have you noticed any ill effects from topping during flowering, or letting plant grow past lights?

I am currently in the middle of 1 grow and had to tie plants down, I had thought about topping but figured it would really decrease yield topping when the plant was just entering flowering chamber.

I am limited in the height I can grow in my current grow room and interested to know what options would work without impacting yield

Thanks


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## Medfarmer54 (Jan 27, 2010)

From my experiences,using the same clones,the amount of bud at harvest is close to the same-whether they are topped or not. I know this seems to defy logic,but that's been my experience....


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## Medfarmer54 (Jan 27, 2010)

I just was having the same problem-my plants in veg got way big before I could move them into the flower room,so I pinched out the tops to slow them down. Moved them into the flower room,still had to tie them over-now they have so many tops on each plant-they are going to be truly wonderous....


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## MileHIGHclub101 (Jan 27, 2010)

what you need to realize is that when you do flower your plants are going to be double sometimes triple and in the craziest sativas quadruple the height it was in veg...all these things need to be taken into account before you flower....topping is good for vegging and gives you plant a chance to change its growth habits before it flowers...i had to realize this on my first grow of a swiss miss and tied her all over the place....but the next grow i topped and kept it within reason...you might need to just tie this one down for this run and learn from it next time


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## Cereall (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks, yeah I kinda ran into heigh issues so was looking for alternatives such as topping, and the 4 colas seems like it would look awesome and yield the same if not more

I don't like tieing all the branches down and would much rather have 4 nice shorter colas then a bent over plant with one

Can't wait to get this next batch under the flowering lights in a few weeks and see how they go


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2010)

Cereall said:


> Little off topic of topping, but have you noticed any ill effects from topping during flowering, or letting plant grow past lights?


Nope...........


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## NavySupra (Jan 27, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> A 60/40 ratio is pretty accurate with 60% of the total guesstimated flowering time being the stretch and 40% bulking up. Plan on raising the light, topping during flowering, or letting it go right past the light. I've done 'em all.
> 
> Any mail yet?
> 
> UB


Should I top them now?

My light position is fixed with no ability to adjust height from the pots. I prefer the "fixed" lamp approach so the plant can choose how much light it wants. You can probably see that little one that's pretty happy, and it's not stretching... so far.







Here you can see when I put them in, and if you look at the previously posted picture you can see how much they've grown in 10 days. There is 6-8" of available vertical space before they are an unsafe distance from the lamp and fixture. There is room to keep them off to the side to allow a total of 10" vertical from their current height.

No mail yet, but we're in a rural area and we go to the mail box like once a week.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2010)

NavySupra said:


> Should I top them now?
> 
> My light position is fixed with no ability to adjust height from the pots. I prefer the "fixed" lamp approach so the plant can choose how much light it wants.


Lookin' good guy! For the best plant response, you need to put your lights on chains and keep them near the plants at all times, not too much, not too weak. Lightweight dog chains with end hooks work fine hung from rod. You may be giving them 1,000 f.c. where they would respond better with 6,000 f.c.


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## MileHIGHclub101 (Jan 27, 2010)

or you could get a whole bunch of sturdy bases and bring the plants up to the lights like phone books or i sometimes use a collection of hightimes mags giving off the plant vibe from underneath


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## NavySupra (Jan 28, 2010)

MileHIGHclub101 said:


> or you could get a whole bunch of sturdy bases and bring the plants up to the lights like phone books or i sometimes use a collection of hightimes mags giving off the plant vibe from underneath


I don't really want a soggy mess of magazines, diesel power in my case, underneath my plants.

Also I'm working on a SOG setup in this little box, with two plants put in every two weeks... so they will be of varying height and rate of completion.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 28, 2010)

NavySupra said:


> I don't really want a soggy mess of magazines, diesel power in my case, underneath my plants.
> 
> Also I'm working on a SOG setup in this little box, with two plants put in every two weeks... so they will be of varying height and rate of completion.


Overturned black plastic commercial pots from 1 to 5 gallons makes for a nice high chair. If you're in soil, use a cheap, clear plastic saucer with high sides available at Walmart.


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## Kilgore Trout (Jan 28, 2010)

I've got Northern lights, Bubblegum and Big Bud on the go.... how do these respond to topping? anyone? any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## whatsgood (Jan 30, 2010)

thought the thread was awesome man, keep it up. i was wondering, what was the light used for vegging and flower for the 4 cola plant?

thanks




This is an indoor shot just prior to harvest showing the colas bulking up quite nicely. Notice how the weight of the heavy colas is naturally pulling them apart, which opens the plant up so that light can penetrate the interior of the canopy. This is the same principle used by fruit orchard managers who create an open vase profile for their trees in order to increase production. This profile also has a side benefit of providing good interior air movement which reduces fungal/rot pressures.







The plant after harvest showing the branching scaffold and dominant 4 main cola "trunks", opposing nodes one right above the other. Smaller secondary branches also provided good bud production. This plant yielded over 10 oz of cured bud.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 30, 2010)

whatsgood said:


> thought the thread was awesome man, keep it up. i was wondering, what was the light used for vegging and flower for the 4 cola plant?
> 
> thanks


 HPS from start to finish.


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## NavySupra (Jan 30, 2010)

Hey UB, what was the finished height of the 4 cola plant just before you got out the axe?


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## Mr.Oasis (Jan 30, 2010)

Im pretty certain ive read atleast 80% of this thread at some point or another, but i dont specifically remember anything about a feeding schedule PRIOR to the topping, i def started with nutes too soon on my fist 2 grows, ive got some new ones starting, theyve got 4, 3, and 2 developed nodes, i plan on topping for 4 again this time (last time i went a node to high and get semi-bushes) but i was just wondering if you feed your little ones before you pinch the top out of them or if the feeding begins following the pinch

also there will be some blood and bone meal in their new 5 gal pots but as of right now they are just in "beer" cups with plain old soil/perlite/verm, i will probably transplant to some 5 gal containers a week or so after i top, the nutes will be fox farms grow big (6-4-4)

jw when i can start them on a regimen, it says a tsp/gal, but they dont need anywhere near a gallon of water between the 3 of them so im wondering if it would even be worth trying to get a few drops in with their next watering? gracias UB, keep the 411 rolling in


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 31, 2010)

Mr.Oasis said:


> Im pretty certain ive read atleast 80% of this thread at some point or another, but i dont specifically remember anything about a feeding schedule PRIOR to the topping, i def started with nutes too soon on my fist 2 grows, ive got some new ones starting, theyve got 4, 3, and 2 developed nodes, i plan on topping for 4 again this time (last time i went a node to high and get semi-bushes) but i was just wondering if you feed your little ones before you pinch the top out of them or if the feeding begins following the pinch
> 
> also there will be some blood and bone meal in their new 5 gal pots but as of right now they are just in "beer" cups with plain old soil/perlite/verm, i will probably transplant to some 5 gal containers a week or so after i top, the nutes will be fox farms grow big (6-4-4)
> 
> jw when i can start them on a regimen, it says a tsp/gal, but they dont need anywhere near a gallon of water between the 3 of them so im wondering if it would even be worth trying to get a few drops in with their next watering? gracias UB, keep the 411 rolling in


When you give them nutes, it depends on your medium. Hydro and soil-less growers introduce nutes sooner than soil growers because of the lack of nutrients. 

I looked at the Grow Big feeding chart and it calls for 2tsp/gallon when first introducing them. I started off at 2.5ml or 1/2tsp per gallon myself. If you dont need a gallon of water, then just cut those numbers in half, and so on until you reach what you need.

You should go buy a set of measuring spoons from walmart or elsewhere. Mine has a tablespoon, teaspoon, 1/2 teaspoon, and 1/4th teaspoon. Works perfectly for measuring out nutes for me.


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## jjfoo (Jan 31, 2010)

I was just given a mom that is about three feed wide and four feet tall. It was giving lots of small clones and has tons of potential colas. I pruned off some of smaller branches but it still has man many colas. I put it on 12/12 two days ago. Should I just leave it or do a topping on it?

I'm open to regging for a week or two if that would help. Any recommendations?

It is about seven months old.


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 31, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> I was just given a mom that is about three feed wide and four feet tall. It was giving lots of small clones and has tons of potential colas. I pruned off some of smaller branches but it still has man many colas. I put it on 12/12 two days ago. Should I just leave it or do a topping on it?
> 
> I'm open to regging for a week or two if that would help. Any recommendations?
> 
> It is about seven months old.


I see no reason to bother topping at this point. The only reason to top now would be because you have limited vertical space. Even then it wouldn't do you much good unless you topped way back.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 31, 2010)

NavySupra said:


> Hey UB, what was the finished height of the 4 cola plant just before you got out the axe?


With the pot, about 4' tall.


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## jjfoo (Jan 31, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> I see no reason to bother topping at this point. The only reason to top now would be because you have limited vertical space. Even then it wouldn't do you much good unless you topped way back.



IF I was back in veg would it have been best to chop top it above the second node? I like to veg for like 8 weeks.

If I want to veg 8 weeks should I let it get 6 - 8 nodes then top and let it veg or should I let it veg then top a week before flower?

what do you consider a 'long' veg time?


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 31, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> IF I was back in veg would it have been best to chop top it above the second node? I like to veg for like 8 weeks.
> 
> If I want to veg 8 weeks should I let it get 6 - 8 nodes then top and let it veg or should I let it veg then top a week before flower?
> 
> what do you consider a 'long' veg time?


Is your first question asking if you should have chopped this 4 foot plant back to nothing if you were in veg?

If you're growing from seed, let it get to 5 or 6 nodes, and then cut above the second node, and allow it to veg until you flower. I dont see much reason to veg 7 weeks, top, then flower. Stick to the program, imo 

Anything over 8 weeks would probably be a long veg time for me, but most people veg 3-5 weeks for indoors.


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## NavySupra (Feb 1, 2010)

As per my PM, here is a shot of my plants and their proximity to the CMH, this is at 15 days.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 1, 2010)

NavySupra said:


> As per my PM, here is a shot of my plants and their proximity to the CMH, this is at 15 days.


How much headroom have you got left? I'd top the lanky one to try to bring it in line with the others.


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## NavySupra (Feb 1, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> How much headroom have you got left? I'd top the lanky one to try to bring it in line with the others.


All the even tops are currently about 6" away from the lamp itself with a possible 8" of vertical growing available.

Rough conversions from a real measuring system... metric.


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## doogleef (Feb 1, 2010)

That's going to be close. If they continue to shoot up with that kind of nodal spacing you may run out of room.


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## NavySupra (Feb 1, 2010)

doogleef said:


> That's going to be close. If they continue to shoot up with that kind of nodal spacing you may run out of room.


I've been thinking I can move them against the back, so they are horizontally further away from the lamps and allow the colas to grow up past the shade. See how they look tomorrow morning.

I decided I'm not going to try any more multi cola plants for the time being, as they take up way too much space. At least I can stack single plants 4 wide instead of two, which is already pretty darn crowded.

I've been photographing them everyday so once I start really getting somewhere I'm going to make a more complete journal with my observations.


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## doogleef (Feb 1, 2010)

If you have room to let it go past the fixture, do it. 

I just modified my op the other way going to topped, vegged plants from a SOG style with a high density planting. SOG is fun but it's a lot of work and a ton of clones. I'm betting I get more from a single topped plant vegged for 3 weeks from clone in each pot than I was getting from 2-3 no-veg clones (well rooted) dropped into the same system. Time will tell. 

Good luck.


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## NavySupra (Feb 1, 2010)

doogleef said:


> If you have room to let it go past the fixture, do it.
> 
> I just modified my op the other way going to topped, vegged plants from a SOG style with a high density planting. SOG is fun but it's a lot of work and a ton of clones. I'm betting I get more from a single topped plant vegged for 3 weeks from clone in each pot than I was getting from 2-3 no-veg clones (well rooted) dropped into the same system. Time will tell.
> 
> Good luck.


Thank you!

Right now space is my concern, so I'd rather deal with more clones than more vegging plants. Plus I want some fresh smoke every couple of weeks!


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## mcpurple (Feb 2, 2010)

hey ub i am going to triy to top ur way for 4 main colas, i understand most of it, but where is the second node at i dont know where to begin counting to i count the first node as the single leaf, and why wai ttill theirs 5 or 6 nodes, if its just gonna get cut any way


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## jumboSWISHER (Feb 2, 2010)

mcpurple you wait till theres 5 or 6 nodes so that the plant has good root mass. and cutting a seedling with only 3 nodes would probly stress it out really bad.


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## ganjaluvr (Feb 2, 2010)

hey everyone.

I currently just harvested one of my 'Ceres Skunk' ladies... and have the buds hanging by threads to dry..then I'll cure them for about a week.. then they'll be ready to smoke...

My question is...

I have a second 'Ceres Skunk' lady.. that wasn't too far behind the other one. Only this second plant.. has just started her 4th week of flowering as of today. 

Is she too far into flowering to maybe top her?

(also.. I've never tried this before.. soo yeah. Keep that in mind as well..)

If you have any doubts.. and think it's too risky for whatever reason.. please say so as I don't want 8 weeks of my life growing this thing to be lost in one day.

Thanks in advance! peace.


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## jjfoo (Feb 2, 2010)

This thread has changed some of my long held 'conclusions'. I try to stay away from beliefs, but your posts have made me see that I simply have believed things because I had read them so many times... I no doubt everything I know a bit more!


I think this may be a dumb question, so feel free to let me have it.

I have come to see that I will not remove leaves anymore. I used to subscribe to Cervantes' advise on if it easily pulls off, cool, if it resists, leave it. 

I'm just wondering if there is ever a case to remove a leaf?


Like, I just got some rooted clones that are getting new growth, but the old growth is looking really bad and shading new growth. 


From what I read, I think you're answer will be 'do not remove anything, it may fall off, but don't remove'


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## NavySupra (Feb 2, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> This thread has changed some of my long held 'conclusions'. I try to stay away from beliefs, but your posts have made me see that I simply have believed things because I had read them so many times... I no doubt everything I know a bit more!
> 
> 
> I think this may be a dumb question, so feel free to let me have it.
> ...


First let me start by saying... I don't know anything.

I would hazard a guess that when the plant naturally drops the leaf off, that it has completely removed all of the stored nutrients in the leaf.

Second part... I just topped one of my jan 31 plants for four colas...


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## jjfoo (Feb 2, 2010)

looks good, I look forward to this

I have a single Mexican seed that is about two weeks and vegging


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## Mr.Oasis (Feb 2, 2010)

is it just me or do i see another node or 2 hiding down there supra?

i just topped a few of mine, ive got 3 starting all some schwag-seed but ive had decent results so far (aside from hella herm's), topped all 3 of them for 4, no pics yet they're still small and unimpressive, im gonna veg for close to 8 weeks though and see if i can grow some bushes, got'm under 2 23 watt cfl's until the current crop is done, should be 1-3 weeks then ill move it under the 400w mh to juice its growth up

im a believer in your method mr. UB, i like the doing secondary harvest as well, cutting the colas then letting the "popcorn" turn into jawbreakers


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## NavySupra (Feb 2, 2010)

Mr.Oasis said:


> is it just me or do i see another node or 2 hiding down there supra?
> 
> i just topped a few of mine, ive got 3 starting all some schwag-seed but ive had decent results so far (aside from hella herm's), topped all 3 of them for 4, no pics yet they're still small and unimpressive, im gonna veg for close to 8 weeks though and see if i can grow some bushes, got'm under 2 23 watt cfl's until the current crop is done, should be 1-3 weeks then ill move it under the 400w mh to juice its growth up
> 
> im a believer in your method mr. UB, i like the doing secondary harvest as well, cutting the colas then letting the "popcorn" turn into jawbreakers



Yeah there probably is, I just cut it that way because I didn't want to remove too much, but expose the four "closest" tops. With my planter arrangement there is ample room for the extra shoots to grow some nice jawbreakers as you call them


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## Guest999 (Feb 2, 2010)

I'm going to be topping soon and wanted to make sure I did so above the 2nd node. I am unsure where to begin counting nodes...is the 1st the single leaf set above the cotyledons or the triple leaf set above the single leaf set. The arrow points to where I am assuming the 2nd node is, the first 3 leaf set.


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 2, 2010)

ganjaluvr said:


> hey everyone.
> 
> I currently just harvested one of my 'Ceres Skunk' ladies... and have the buds hanging by threads to dry..then I'll cure them for about a week.. then they'll be ready to smoke...
> 
> ...


I see no reason to be topping at this point. Its not going to do you any good now. 



Guest999 said:


> I'm going to be topping soon and wanted to make sure I did so above the 2nd node. I am unsure where to begin counting nodes...is the 1st the single leaf set above the cotyledons or the triple leaf set above the single leaf set. The arrow points to where I am assuming the 2nd node is, the first 3 leaf set.


Correct. Your arrow is pointing to the second node. Cut above that and you should end up with four tops.


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## jjfoo (Feb 3, 2010)

Guest999,

I would let it get many more nodes before topping. This is kind of what makes this system different to my style. I mean I used to top right away. After reading here I am thinking the plant will probably do better if you let it get big roots then top it. You'll be cutting a more established (and thick!) plant that may suffer less shock. I have never done this before and am watching my Mexican grow up. It is a few weeks out of the seed and am really excited to watch the progress... I do know the genetics, maybe you guys can tell what it is.



I be posting photos shortly...


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## jjfoo (Feb 3, 2010)

UB,

I'm building some reflective panels. I read that you use two movable and two that don't move. Why not four movable? Which ones don't move? I was thinking you could have the plants in a corner and the two room walls didn't move, but I'm not sure, could you explain a little further?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 3, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> UB,
> 
> I'm building some reflective panels. I read that you use two movable and two that don't move. Why not four movable? Which ones don't move? I was thinking you could have the plants in a corner and the two room walls didn't move, but I'm not sure, could you explain a little further?


It's a matter of convenience. I used a stationary back wall, 2 side panels that were movable and a front panel that was movable. Or, you can use a room corner, just configure it to where it's user friendly and allows you to always have side reflecting panels right next to the plants.


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## mcpurple (Feb 3, 2010)

hey ub, when should i top this plant, and where is the true second node,


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 3, 2010)

Please tell me you are joking. If not, I will kill you.


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## mcpurple (Feb 3, 2010)

no im not i keep hering some say the first node is where the single leaf meats the stalk, and others say its the next one up is the first node, and i highly doubt u could kill me


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 3, 2010)

mcpurple said:


> no im not i keep hering some say the first node is where the single leaf meats the stalk, and others say its the next one up is the first node, and i highly doubt u could kill me


LDO, it is hard to kill someone through the net 

But if you had read the last few pages of this thread you would see me clearly pointing out to where the cutting site is. Theres even pictures with lines involved..


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## jjfoo (Feb 3, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Or, you can use a room corner, just configure it to where it's user friendly and allows you to always have side reflecting panels right next to the plants.


cool, I'm going to mylar by two walls and have the panels on my living room floor with some 2x3's that I will use to make a stand...


Do you blow a fan directly on your plants? If so, do the walls get in the way? 


I was reading something and it seemed like you paint your floor white, too. Do leaves benefit from having light hit underneath them?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 4, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> LDO, it is hard to kill someone through the net
> 
> But if you had read the last few pages of this thread you would see me clearly pointing out to where the cutting site is. Theres even pictures with lines involved..


Dave, you've been more than patient with folks that are too lazy to try to get a grasp on plant parts, plant physiology, or at least read the first page. I just had a guy PM me asking me to define a node. 
*
HEY PEOPLE, GET A FUCKIN' BOOK ON PLANT PHYSIOLOGY AND CULTURE! LURK! 

This is for the noobs that keep asking the same old questions over and over again - 
http://www.starterupsteve.com/swf/posting.html?

*....enough of this rant.


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## NavySupra (Feb 4, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Dave, you've been more than patient with folks that are too lazy to try to get a grasp on plant parts, plant physiology, or at least read the first page. I just had a guy PM me asking me to define a node.
> *
> HEY PEOPLE, GET A FUCKIN' BOOK ON PLANT PHYSIOLOGY AND CULTURE! LURK!
> 
> ...



Good Morning Uncle Ben!


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 4, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> cool, I'm going to mylar by two walls and have the panels on my living room floor with some 2x3's that I will use to make a stand...
> 
> 
> Do you blow a fan directly on your plants? If so, do the walls get in the way?
> ...


You're going off topic on me, but I'll answer and to save me some time, this is what I wrote in a PM to another member, Tuesday. 

*Regarding cabinets, gardens are dynamic, they are forever expanding and contracting. I hate cabinets because of the expense, time involved, and lack of footprint flexibility. I did a deal with movable reflecting panels using one painted wall as a stationary wall, that way I could keep them adjacent to the plants at all times, maximizing reflective light. Never had a problem with light not reaching the lowest levels. It's simple - you paint large cardboard panels white, say from furniture shipments or 4X8' sheets of styrofoam, and mount them with a staple gun to uprights made out of lumber, drill a hole at the top, run a pipe thru it and hang your lights using lightweight chains. You leave about a 14" or so open at the bottom for air circulation - that's where I'd sit a window fan, on the outside pointing in for cool floor air. IOW, staple the panels about 14" or so from the floor. Leave the top open to release the heat. It's cheap, easy and very effective. I even made the supports hinged so it could be put away for storage. All you do is pop the staples, fold up the uprights and you're done. 

I never bothered with separate veg and flower areas. I used the same setup to veg and then flower. Again, keeping it simple.

*To add to that ditty....

I had crossarms attached to the top of the uprights using bolts and thumbscrews. The uprights had drilled holes at the top for one pipe allowing me to use one hood, and nails along the top of the crossarms about every 2". This allowed me to lay two pipes at any point between any 2 nails along the crossarm continum, from one side of the garden's crossarm to the other crossarm. The hoods hung from the pipes by dog chains and were adjustable within seconds just by changing to a different link in the chain. This allowed me to place the lights at any height and at any location within the garden's footprint.

My backwall was stationary, there were two movable side panels and I would place this huge piece of painted cardboard on the floor against the side panels to make up the 4th wall, held in place by a heavy case of brew bottles from the back. When I needed to work with the plants, I would move the box away, pick up the large panel and set it aside leaving the whole garden at my disposal. Cheap - a dime's worth of plant food now and then, a few hoods, $10 worth of lumber/hardware, free cardboard, some Behr Ultra White paint and viola, I had me a garden.

A picture is worth a thou words, and yes that is a sativa that was allowed to grow past the lights.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 4, 2010)

NavySupra said:


> Good Morning Uncle Ben!


Mornin'! 

lol


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## jjfoo (Feb 4, 2010)

Sorry, I should have PM'd you. I got so excited I lost it and went off topic. I value your advise and would gladly offer you help if you ever needed it (I'm a computer programmer/admin, if you need any help with geek stuff let me know).

I am sincerely grateful for this thread. 

It is just the opposite of what I've been told to do my my more experienced friends. They always had me strip the bottom colas saying they would never produce much... I guess they never seen a photo the ones of your buds.


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## jjfoo (Feb 4, 2010)

Here is a nice link that should help people asking questions and wondering why they are being told to do their homework first.


http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 4, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> Sorry, I should have PM'd you. I got so excited I lost it and went off topic. I value your advise and would gladly offer you help if you ever needed it (I'm a computer programmer/admin, if you need any help with geek stuff let me know).
> 
> I am sincerely grateful for this thread.
> 
> It is just the opposite of what I've been told to do my my more experienced friends. They always had me strip the bottom colas saying they would never produce much... I guess they never seen a photo the ones of your buds.


No problem. Glad to have you along for the ride.

Just a thought to those that are writing me regarding cultural questions, please don't do it in a PM. Start a thread.

The reason why your friends are telling you that is based on their experience, they are not able to get production from top to bottom. You gotta ask "why" when folks make such a blanket statement.

The ability to differentiate between facts and feelings is really important, no matter what you're doing in life.


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## Shackleford.R (Feb 4, 2010)

NavySupra said:


> Good Morning Uncle Ben!





Uncle Ben said:


> Mornin'!
> 
> lol




lol 
i dont know why but this made me laugh!


Shack


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## silentscornmd45 (Feb 4, 2010)

Wait, so I must've topped in a bad spot. I went way up my stem by the newest nodes...My shit is 10 inches tall. What do I do?!?!?!


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## mcpurple (Feb 4, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> LDO, it is hard to kill someone through the net
> 
> But if you had read the last few pages of this thread you would see me clearly pointing out to where the cutting site is. Theres even pictures with lines involved..


yse i read thta and looked at the pic but iv herd many times that that isnt the second node it seems like people have a differents opinion, so thanks for lettin me know it is the secondnode



Uncle Ben said:


> Dave, you've been more than patient with folks that are too lazy to try to get a grasp on plant parts, plant physiology, or at least read the first page. I just had a guy PM me asking me to define a node.
> 
> *HEY PEOPLE, GET A FUCKIN' BOOK ON PLANT PHYSIOLOGY AND CULTURE! LURK! *
> 
> ...


im sorry i did read this post, and i have read books, on plant physiology, and culture, and im not to lazy, and u made this thread to help but yet u get all pissed when u have to answer a few qeustions, it seems like al your response to people is a dickhead answer, i dont even see why people ask u cuz u just a dick, dont make the thread if u dont want to answer some shit, and people do do researching and every website everybook every person has somthing different shit to say like where the true second node is,

PS ur a dick dude smoke some more weed to calm yourself

[


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## buttery420 (Feb 4, 2010)

So uncle Ben, I used your topping technique on all four of my plants, worked wonders on three (thx  ), the other is taking much longer to recover and seems to have about 5 shoots coming out of the place where I topped it...what have I done wrong? What is happening here? is the plant salvageable?


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## DTR (Feb 4, 2010)

dude ub is the MAN we are so lucky to have his wisdom dont get mad when he gets pissed i know 1600+ posts is hard to go through but if you dont and ask a question thats been answered a hundered times hes got the right to be upset


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## Shackleford.R (Feb 4, 2010)

mcpurple said:


> im sorry i did read this post, and i have read books, on plant physiology, and culture, and im not to lazy, and u made this thread to help but yet u get all pissed when u have to answer a few qeustions, it seems like al your response to people is a dickhead answer, i dont even see why people ask u cuz u just a dick, dont make the thread if u dont want to answer some shit, and people do do researching and every website everybook every person has somthing different shit to say like where the true second node is,
> 
> PS ur a dick dude smoke some more weed to calm yourself
> 
> [



he's been answering the same questions for 167 pages.. did you notice how old this thread is? he has every right to respond how he sees fit.

the true second node is the same place EVERY time, thats not really something that is debatable. its like discussing "is two plus two really four?" it's fact, there is not debate. 

get a life loser.


Shack

PS take your own advice.


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## superhps (Feb 4, 2010)

How do i post a topic on the forums?


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## mcpurple (Feb 4, 2010)

Shackleford.R said:


> he's been answering the same questions for 167 pages.. did you notice how old this thread is? he has every right to respond how he sees fit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 jsut cuz it was answered already gives him no right to be a dick, also ive read many posts and books and have watched videos and have expeirence with very well known growers, and none of them ever agree on wich is the second node, some count nodes different, so ya it is debatalbe when theirs all these diffent answers and i got a life i dont sit here all day on ubs nut like you, peace not gonna argue just sayin ub is a dick head, and i dont know why evryone likes him, but what ever


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## buttery420 (Feb 4, 2010)

I can see that I arrived at a bad time...


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## Shackleford.R (Feb 4, 2010)

mcpurple said:


> jsut cuz it was answered already gives him no right to be a dick


CLEARLY it gives you the right to be an asshole i see



> also ive read many posts and books and have watched videos and have expeirence with very well known growers, and none of them ever agree on wich is the second node, some count nodes different, so ya it is debatalbe when theirs all these diffent answers


Node - 3 [Botany] the part of a plant stem from which one or more leaves emerge. (as defined by Oxford's English Dictionary)

With this in mind, UB is discussing the "second node" which would clearly refer to the second set of shoots coming off of the main stem. Given the cotyledons are not considered to be true leaves, we would not count this as a node. So therefore, start at the cotyledons, count up "1...2..." we arrive at the second node.

Please, go into detail about how this differs from plant to plant. Then we can discuss how 2+2 equals ANYTHING other than 4 based on what time of day it is.

In the meantime, lrn2botany HERE









> i got a life i dont sit here all day on ubs nut like you, peace not gonna argue just sayin ub is a dick head, and i dont know why evryone likes him, but what ever


yes that is exactly what i do.. i sit here and jerk off to the thought of Uncle Ben.
you can't claim to not be arguing when you are. if you're not prepared to argue that is one thing, but don't claim you are not.
With these things in mind, care to have an intelligent discussion with evidence, proof, quotes ANYTHING to back up the bullshit you're peddling?


Shack


----------



## DaveCoulier (Feb 4, 2010)

Everyone needs to calm down and take a toke. Thats what Im gonna do!


----------



## Shackleford.R (Feb 4, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Everyone needs to calm down and take a toke. Thats what Im gonna do!


right on brother. i'm sorry i got worked up everyone. i haven't been able to find my nicotine inhaler (i quit smoking 1/1/10 and havent lit up since!) 

i get a little snippy.

i find this quote fitting...

"GO ON WITH THE CHLOROPHYLL!!"
 


Shack


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 4, 2010)

silentscornmd45 said:


> Wait, so I must've topped in a bad spot. I went way up my stem by the newest nodes...*My shit* is 10 inches tall. What do I do?!?!?!


Well, you could always _shit_ can it. 



buttery420 said:


> So uncle Ben, I used your topping technique on all four of my plants, worked wonders on three (thx  ), the other is taking much longer to recover and seems to have about 5 shoots coming out of the place where I topped it...what have I done wrong? What is happening here? is the plant salvageable?


You must seek the 2nd true node, grasshopper. It is within reach for those seeking the truth.



superhps said:


> How do i post a topic on the forums?


Ever tried a _post_ hole digger?

And to all my high tech friends out there in cannabis rocket fuel land, gude nite _fraud_lines!

Buenas panoches,
Tio Bendejo


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## NavySupra (Feb 5, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Well, you could always _shit_ can it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Am I the only one that is completely confusedled now?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 5, 2010)

NavySupra said:


> Am I the only one that is completely confusedled now?


Mornin' glory!

Just thought I'd throw out some of my own nonsense and have some fun. 

May the truth set you free......


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 5, 2010)

mcpurple said:


> jsut cuz it was answered already gives him no right to be a dick,


The hell you say. It's my thread and if you don't like my style or like being told you're lazy for 1. not using the search feature, 2. lurking, or 3. doing some research, then get the hell out of my thread and don't come back with your gimme attitude. I/we don't owe you a damn thing. Got it? 

If you don't know what a node is after it's been explained 10 frickin' times by about 4 different members starting with page one, then you're just a leech with his hand out and are not welcome. 

It is not my intent to teach the basics, I'm here to try to help folks understand plant hormonal responses and offer another way of training your plants.

nuff said......


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 5, 2010)

Shackleford.R said:


> right on brother. i'm sorry i got worked up everyone. i haven't been able to find my nicotine inhaler (i quit smoking 1/1/10 and havent lit up since!)


Just caught this. You deserve a big pat on the back! Been there, done that. It's not only a health issue but at $6.80/pack a financial one. 

Keep up the good work,
Tio


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## NavySupra (Feb 5, 2010)




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## xotics (Feb 5, 2010)

can an auto flowering plant be topped?


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## MileHIGHclub101 (Feb 5, 2010)

can you guess which are the four


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## borijus (Feb 5, 2010)

FIRST TO SAY HELLO!
AND BIG RESPECT FOR UNCLE BEN FOR SHARING ALL THE INFOS WITH US.

Now I have some questions...
I'm growing with HPS 600w. I topped my plants to get 4 colas. And they're just doing fine. Now they are in the flowering stage. 4th day. And I tied them up, on the side, just to get more light down.
Is that ok? some kind of LST in the beginning of flowering with topped plants? or just to leave them alone, because of that hormonal response?
PLEASE HELP!


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 5, 2010)

borijus said:


> FIRST TO SAY HELLO!
> AND BIG RESPECT FOR UNCLE BEN FOR SHARING ALL THE INFOS WITH US.
> 
> Now I have some questions...
> ...


What do you mean you tied them up? Lst is tieing plants down. Katatawnic makes great use of topping + lst. Once she tops it, she uses lst to make the four tops grow outwards towards the sides of the pot, then they are allowed to grow straight up from there. It should give better light penetration down below. 

Btw, Kat, you got any pics of your plants like this? Id love to see how well it turns out when you get into flowering.


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## CyberSecks (Feb 6, 2010)

hey guys kinda new here. 
im kind of at a loss for understanding how topping can get 4 colas?
i understand getting 2. but to get 4 would u top the tops u already topped (haha)
or does it just happen naturely when u do it early on?
thanks again


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 6, 2010)

CyberSecks said:


> hey guys kinda new here.
> im kind of at a loss for understanding how topping can get 4 colas?
> i understand getting 2. but to get 4 would u top the tops u already topped (haha)
> or does it just happen naturely when u do it early on?
> thanks again


Read the first page. If that doesn't work, read page two, then read page 3 if necessary. If you have to read any further, maybe horticulture isn't for you.


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## doogleef (Feb 6, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Read the first page. If that doesn't work, read page two, then read page 3 if necessary. If you have to read any further, maybe horticulture isn't for you.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 6, 2010)

MileHIGHclub101 said:


> can you guess which are the four


Yep, nice job.



CyberSecks said:


> hey guys kinda new here.
> im kind of at a loss for understanding how topping can get 4 colas?


http://www.starterupsteve.com/swf/posting.html?

Looking good NS!


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## Shackleford.R (Feb 7, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Read the first page. If that doesn't work, read page two, then read page 3 if necessary. If you have to read any further, maybe horticulture isn't for you.






Shack


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## jjfoo (Feb 7, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> I never trim branches. I mean, why would anyone want to remove the very plant unit that produces bud?


well for me, I don't like trim small buds...

and I see small bods from the little branches that grow, maybe this will change that I a topping like you do


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## doogleef (Feb 8, 2010)

If you let the lower buds ripen naturally by doing a double harvest they wont be popcorn.


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## NavySupra (Feb 9, 2010)

Even with my small cabinet plants, I'm really starting to like 4 cola over single cola. I'm down to two plants per row instead of 4, but getting double the colas


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## Mr.Oasis (Feb 9, 2010)

ive been following this thread for a while, just started my second run with this method...

What kind of size do you think we'd be talking about for these if i veg them indoors one more month and then put them outside for the season?

I have reasonable space, no vast acreage but plenty of room for one here and there

Do you think id have to top again to keep them under 8 feet at harvest??
sex is unknown for all 3 but if i get 1 female id love to get a P+ off her to keep me supplied until next year

just transplanted yesterday from "beer" cups to 3 gal pots, any problems evident?? thanks for all the 411!


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## hbmak (Feb 9, 2010)

I am a noob to growing. This is my first attempt. I am using "Short Rider" auto flowering seeds. My plant is 17 days old, and it starting to grow a set of leaves out of the second and third node. Should I top it now or wait?


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## riddleme (Feb 9, 2010)

hbmak said:


> I am a noob to growing. This is my first attempt. I am using "Short Rider" auto flowering seeds. My plant is 17 days old, and it starting to grow a set of leaves out of the second and third node. Should I top it now or wait?


WAIT till you have 5 or 6 nodes, you want the plant to be mature enough to handle the stress of the topping


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## TillthedayiDIE420 (Feb 10, 2010)

great thread man, BTW what strain was that plant? (sorry if it's been asked already)


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## .moonchild (Feb 11, 2010)

Note to all:

make SURE you top your plant with some extra stalk above the nodes, or you could have a problem similar to mine where a node breaks off right at the top joint and peels the outer layer of stem down. I barely pressed on this top node and the outer stem layer just snapped and this thing fell. 

Was like 1/3 of my plant.


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## N0rth3rnL1ghtz (Feb 11, 2010)

Love the thread guys. it took me a few times to understand this method but i'm on board now. 

This question may sound a little dumb, but I'm curious. in my defense, I've searched all over RIU for info about topping mothers and mothers in general, but i'm not finding much. If anyone has some good literature about caring for mothers, i would love a link (off topic i know )

I'm growing 4 mostly indica plants up to be my mothers. After reading this thread the ol' wheels started turnin. If i used this technique on my mothers while they're still young, would there be an increase in the number of clones i could produce? 

My thinking is, if there are 4 "trunks" instead of 1; there will be more oppurtunities for folliage to grow because of the constant food/water/hormone supply coming from the "trunks."

What do you guys think? I understand this could be one of those "well, try it!" situations, but i wanted someone to at least confirm or deny my thinking.

Thanks in advance


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 11, 2010)

N0rth3rnL1ghtz said:


> Love the thread guys. it took me a few times to understand this method but i'm on board now.
> 
> This question may sound a little dumb, but I'm curious. in my defense, I've searched all over RIU for info about topping mothers and mothers in general, but i'm not finding much. If anyone has some good literature about caring for mothers, i would love a link (off topic i know )
> 
> ...


Having mother plants is all about getting them bushy. You can top, lst, or fim. Whichever floats your boat.


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## flipthebic18 (Feb 11, 2010)

im gonna try toppin two of my plants to get 4main colas... the plants im gonna choose from to top are kushberry,lawomen,kandykush, so 2/3 will b topped do u suggest 1strain over the other i also have a lemonxskunk and sharksbreath but there way to small right now.. but i figured with my setup maybe a couple plants with 4main colas would help me on the light that wont be reachin the bottom when the plants grow up.. check out my grow im running leds so if im sucessful with gettin these 4main colas then i might just do it to all my plants next round cuz it might be the most benificial way with running leds so +rep and thanks for the thread...



https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/296704-first-grow-let-me-know.html


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## jjfoo (Feb 12, 2010)

N0rth3rnL1ghtz said:


> I'm growing 4 mostly indica plants up to be my mothers. After reading this thread the ol' wheels started turnin. If i used this technique on my mothers while they're still young, would there be an increase in the number of clones i could produce?
> 
> My thinking is, if there are 4 "trunks" instead of 1; there will be more oppurtunities for folliage to grow because of the constant food/water/hormone supply coming from the "trunks."
> 
> ...


how many clones do you need and hows often?


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## Guest999 (Feb 12, 2010)

Thought I would post this. Here is a Barney's Farm L*SD I topped today at the 2nd node.


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## jjfoo (Feb 12, 2010)

Guest999 said:


> Thought I would post this. Here is a Barney's Farm L*SD I topped today at the 2nd node.


It's so nice to see a thick stem healthy plant that is very short and ready to use all the vert space for bud production. I use to lollipop and it was kind of the opposite, buds the top of a long stem. They needed strings...


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## jonyappleseeds (Feb 12, 2010)

wow so you can get 10 oz of bud from a 3 1/2 tall plant? did i read correctley?

woops this is from the pics on the 1st page im a newb and forgot that theres 170 pages of this thread


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## justlookingtf (Feb 12, 2010)

this is the most awesome thread! I wanted to share a few pics of my first significant grow. About another 4 weeks and I'll be curing these babies!
Well it looks like i am the newbie here. i dont see how to post more than one pic. OK I ll work on it. i did post the others to my album. thanks people for all the great posts and help I gleaned from reading these posts. Although I didnt cut my plants as uncle ben taught us, i dont think I am stealing yur thread. the weeks it took to read all of this gave me the patience to let mine grow! and a lot of really good info. thanks


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## hbmak (Feb 12, 2010)

Wow! I checked my plant tonight. I think it is doing great! I have not topped it yet, and it looks like it is getting ready to bud on the 3rd node. Should I top it now or is it to late? I am growing an autoflower strain from Nirvana. 

https://www.rollitup.org/members/hbmak-albums-first-grow-picture108546-day21.jpg

https://www.rollitup.org/members/hbmak-albums-first-grow-picture108545-p2120004.jpg


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 13, 2010)

jonyappleseeds said:


> wow so you can get 10 oz of bud from a 3 1/2 tall plant? did i read correctley?


Yep



justlookingtf said:


> this is the most awesome thread! I wanted to share a few pics of my first significant grow. About another 4 weeks and I'll be curing these babies!
> Well it looks like i am the newbie here. i dont see how to post more than one pic. OK I ll work on it. i did post the others to my album. thanks people for all the great posts and help I gleaned from reading these posts. Although I didnt cut my plants as uncle ben taught us, i dont think I am stealing yur thread. the weeks it took to read all of this gave me the patience to let mine grow! and a lot of really good info. thanks


Nice job. Start a journal in one of the grow forums. Also, those pots are too big for those plants. Watch for root rot.

UB


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## Guest999 (Feb 13, 2010)

After topping I found some problems with a couple leaves. Maybe someone could stop by and help?

https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/302518-leaf-tips-dying-pics.html#post3784279

thanks


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## Vnsmkr (Feb 14, 2010)

UB, I topped a plant and got 4 main colas before I realized what I was doing then found your thread. NICE!! Thanks for all the useful info!!


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## Snak (Feb 14, 2010)

Guest999 said:


> Thought I would post this. Here is a Barney's Farm L*SD I topped today at the 2nd node.


Heya- Nice looking plant. I topped two LSD's about 5 weeks ago, put them into flower about 4 weeks ago. I'm warning you, that strain grows like a beast. Very branchy, stretchy, tall... but it's durable as hell. Very slow flowering too, compared the WW growing next to it, the buds are much smaller and the whole plant is about a foot taller.

Both plants reacted really well to the 4-cola treatment, and I'm expecting a ridiculous harvest considering 1) these plants are fucking huge and 2)Each plant has 4 colas-my last plants could only bust out 2

GOOD LUCK


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## mikegolfer (Feb 14, 2010)

Probably a dumb question..... but.

I wanted to try a hempy bucket experiment, so I started a seed in a 16 ounce styrofoam cup. Problem was I only have one room and all the other girls were older and already switched to 12/12. So this experiment has been 12/12 from seed. It's about 4 weeks old ready to tramsplant and has 6 nodes and just showed sex. Can I still top it, and/or would it be a wise move? I was planning on just cutting the bottom off the stryofoam cup when I transplant.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2010)

Vnsmkr said:


> UB, I topped a plant and got 4 main colas before I realized what I was doing then found your thread. NICE!! Thanks for all the useful info!!


Enjoy the confirmation.  Looking good!



Snak said:


> Heya- Nice looking plant. I topped two LSD's about 5 weeks ago, put them into flower about 4 weeks ago. I'm warning you, that strain grows like a beast. Very branchy, stretchy, tall... but it's durable as hell. Very slow flowering too, compared the WW growing next to it, the buds are much smaller and the whole plant is about a foot taller.
> 
> Both plants reacted really well to the 4-cola treatment, and I'm expecting a ridiculous harvest considering 1) these plants are fucking huge and 2)Each plant has 4 colas-my last plants could only bust out 2
> 
> GOOD LUCK


Sounds like it has some sativa in it. Good luck on those colas. 



mikegolfer said:


> Probably a dumb question..... but.
> 
> I wanted to try a hempy bucket experiment, so I started a seed in a 16 ounce styrofoam cup. Problem was I only have one room and all the other girls were older and already switched to 12/12. So this experiment has been 12/12 from seed. It's about 4 weeks old ready to tramsplant and has 6 nodes and just showed sex. Can I still top it, and/or would it be a wise move? I was planning on just cutting the bottom off the stryofoam cup when I transplant.


If it was mine I would have supplemented the photoperiod at a window or outside to simulate a veg photoperiod. Yes, you can still top it, but you're gonna have a small plant, if that matters to you.

Don't know why you want to cut out the bottom before transplanting it?

UB


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## Jack in the Bud (Feb 14, 2010)

UB,

This is by no means a complaint against or a criticism of your 4 cola technique. Because by following it (and the other things I've been learning from you about soil mix, lighting, photoperiod, fertilizing, etc.) it's sure looking like I'm going to more than double my yield this grow. 

For some reason or other my plants just wouldn't form 4 main colas. I got 2 really nice ones that formed from the second node but the 2 that formed at the first node never really did take off. Maybe it has something to do with the particular strain I'm trying to grow? All though I can't imagine that it's really all that different than most of these other strains people here are working with. The strain I've got (Alegria from KiwiSeeds) is suppose to be 80% indica, 20% sativa. I'm guessing that the reason for this occurring has more to do with something I either did or didn't do just right than any thing else. Do you have any thoughts on what may have caused this to happen?

Jack


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## Snak (Feb 14, 2010)

Jack-
By no means do I have the answers to your questions, because I have the same question.

However I can provide you what I've figured out so far-

My first grow was 3 Northern Lights and 1 Mazar. I used CFLs and a t-5 flourescent to veg and flower them. 2 of the NL plants developed 2 colas, one NL plant developed 2.5ish colas, and the mazar developed four. I handed the mazar off to a friend to take care off, and never got to see it finish because he fucked it up, but I know that after 4 weeks veg it had 4 tall even branches.

Next grow was 4 of the same NL strain (from marijuana-seeds.nl). This time, 3 plants developed 2 strong colas, and one plant (due to me accidentally topping one of the leading branches when making the Ben cut) just turned into a bush with 3 dominant colas. I used a shit-ton more CFLs that grow.

Now, I've switched to an HPS and am growing Barney's LSD and g13s WW. All four plants have reacted fantastic to the cut, and each has 4 colas up and running well (except for one of my LSDs, on which I literally DROPPED my HPS and lost a branch ).

So my guess is that the reliability of all 4 colas developing evenly is dependent on the genetics of the strain. However I'd also be willing to say that if you don't have enough light, or if CFLs are keeping light coverage uneven, you're going to see some branches outgrow others.


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## mikegolfer (Feb 14, 2010)

I have 5 other females, just read up on hempy buckets and thought it was a neat idea, so I thought I'd try it. Never transplanted without soil, so I don't know what to expect trying to dump a strofoam cup.... Thought if I cut it off 2 or 3 inches from the bottom the roots would spread down. I don't plan on putting it so far down in the larger pot that the current roots will be in the reservoir. They'll have to work for that.

Thanks

Mike


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## Jack in the Bud (Feb 14, 2010)

Snak said:


> Jack-
> By no means do I have the answers to your questions, because I have the same question.
> 
> However I can provide you what I've figured out so far-
> ...


Snaks,

Some how I don't think lack of lighting is the cause of this in my case. In a 5' x 7' space I've got a 400w MH, a 150w HPS, 2 4' 2 bulb T8 flourescent fixtures and 4 23w cfls. 

I believe I'll probably be doing one of those 2 stage harvests where I cut the two main colas first and then drop the lights back down and give the 2 other lesser colas a couple more weeks to see if they'll bulk up and get bigger.

Jack


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2010)

Jack in the Bud said:


> For some reason or other my plants just wouldn't form 4 main colas. I got 2 really nice ones that formed from the second node but the 2 that formed at the first node never really did take off. Maybe it has something to do with the particular strain I'm trying to grow?
> Jack


We can't totally control the redistribution of the auxins. I don't think I've had this "problem". I sure wouldn't worry about it. Two is better than one. 

You might try topping at different stages as that will probably have some bearing as to what dormant (or semi-active) buds are triggered into being dominant. IOW, let one plant go to 3 nodes and then top below the 3rd node, let another go to 6 or 7 nodes and top below the 3rd node.


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## Jack in the Bud (Feb 15, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> We can't totally control the redistribution of the auxins. I don't think I've had this "problem". I sure wouldn't worry about it. Two is better than one.
> 
> You might try topping at different stages as that will probably have some bearing as to what dormant (or semi-active) buds are triggered into being dominant. IOW, let one plant go to 3 nodes and then top below the 3rd node, let another go to 6 or 7 nodes and top below the 3rd node.


Thanks Ben. I'll do a little experimenting along those lines next run. But I think I'll be pinching most of them for just two colas (no sense getting greedy eh?). Because right now if I would have gotten 4 mains on each plant I think it would be way too much for the size space I've got them in. 

Another nice thing this pinching has done for me has been to keep the final height down. Before when I was just growing 1 main cola plants I really couldn't veg them more than 30 days or they got up to close to the light in the end (and I was out of room to raise it). 

I veged these for 42 days before switching to 12/12 and I can see now that I probably could have gone 50 to 60 days in veg and not ended up to tall. 

Another thing is that the flowering stage seems to be progressing much faster this time. And I'm attributing that to the better vegging practices I've learned from you that's given me a better root system and over all plant health.

I'm on day 102 (since seed in dirt) and it's looking like maybe here in another 2 or 3 weeks I might be starting to harvest those top colas.

Once again. _Muchas GrassyAss_ for all the help.

Jack


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2010)

Jack in the Bud said:


> Another nice thing this pinching has done for me has been to keep the final height down.


And that's the main reason I first started experimented with it, to keep sativa's manageable. It seems to bring it all together regarding height control, not too tall but then again not too wide, increased production, etc. 

Glad my "no nonsense" approach to growing a weed has helped you. 

Happy harvest!


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## The Apt Pupil (Feb 15, 2010)

First and foremost I'd like to say that I've been tinkering with this game on and off for years....to be more precise I'm 26 now and the first grow I was involved in had me at the ripe young age of 12....that being said I'm still in search of knowledge on the subject as there is always room to learn and grow  To the man responsible for this thread I give many thanks because in one day I was not only able to diagnose a couple of problems I was having with my current grow but also gain the know-how to address possible future problems. I'm dealing with an indica/sativa cross, which I'd say is indica dominant based on the shape of the fan leaves. I had noticed some minor leaf tip curling and read up on the stressors, and it was overwatering without doubt. Haven't watered in a couple of days and already the leaves are starting to flatten out again....also had a concern about height because I'm seeing that although it's indica dominant it's definitely showing it's sativa side in terms of upward growth. I read up on topping and just happened to be at I believe the 6th node in veg, chopped it where indicated and already I see those other sites where "mini colas" would appear moving upward in the absence of the main chute. The explanation of apical dominance...if I spelled that right, lol....was astounding. The how is one thing....but the why is something else altogether. You will undoubtedly help me take my shit to the next level....muchas gracias por esta informacion tio

Sobrino


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## Ricky Williams (Feb 15, 2010)

> The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count.


Dumbass here. Could you explain this too me? Cotyledons is like your first little set of seed leafs right? So go up two nodes above that? Thanks.


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## Paulorustobernardo (Feb 15, 2010)

why the second true node? i am thinking about doing it at the third? is that ok? wats the rationale? because it will support the weight the lignin later will make the stem pretty sturdy at the bottom...


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## laceygirl (Feb 15, 2010)

Paulorustobernardo said:


> why the second true node? i am thinking about doing it at the third? is that ok? wats the rationale? because it will support the weight the lignin later will make the stem pretty sturdy at the bottom...


Go to the very first pages of this thread and read them... They will be very helpful to you... It explains everything
Laceygirl


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## Paulorustobernardo (Feb 15, 2010)

Do i really HAVE to wait until the 5th and 6th nodes are grown out to cut it? cant i just cut it now when tis on the 4th node? i dont want it to waste energy.... or does it need the time to build up starch storage or something? also is it better to clip the top off at night or in the morning when all the starch has been depleted over night?


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## Shackleford.R (Feb 15, 2010)

Paulorustobernardo said:


> Do i really HAVE to wait until the 5th and 6th nodes are grown out to cut it? cant i just cut it now when tis on the 4th node? i dont want it to waste energy.... or does it need the time to build up starch storage or something? also is it better to clip the top off at night or in the morning when all the starch has been depleted over night?


read through the thread. these questions have been answered several times.
growing it out gives it time to recover from topping in days instead of weeks.


Shack


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 16, 2010)

Buenas suertes hombres!

Welcome to RIU The Apt Pupil


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## Paulorustobernardo (Feb 16, 2010)

cut at night or in the morning? which is better? im guessing night so the open cut does not suck moisture out of the plant?


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## Revolver (Feb 16, 2010)

Probably doing this on my second grow...having enough trouble with my first 

Great guide though.


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## Paulorustobernardo (Feb 16, 2010)

night or morning cutting time is best?


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 16, 2010)

Paulorustobernardo said:


> night or morning cutting time is best?


Ive done it both ways. Didn't see any difference either way myself.


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## Revolver (Feb 16, 2010)

Scratch my previous post, just did it on one of my healthier ones, it was at the perfect stage..topped for 4 main colas.

Now, a question, may have been answered before, read through the first 15 or so pages only..

Is it possible to replant the stuff you cut off? I feel kinda bad having a stem with nice-looking leaves going to waste now..

Thanks.


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 16, 2010)

Revolver said:


> Scratch my previous post, just did it on one of my healthier ones, it was at the perfect stage..topped for 4 main colas.
> 
> Now, a question, may have been answered before, read through the first 15 or so pages only..
> 
> ...


Yep. You can use the cut off top as a clone.


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## Revolver (Feb 17, 2010)

Awesome, thank you.


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## Ricky Williams (Feb 17, 2010)

any reason why this technique wouldn't work with autoflowers? I read first 10 pages so if this has been answered please forgive me. This thread is too long to read.


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## RogueReefer (Feb 17, 2010)

Ricky Williams said:


> any reason why this technique wouldn't work with autoflowers? I read first 10 pages so if this has been answered please forgive me. This thread is too long to read.


 
Auto clones will be same age as mom and flower at same time.


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## uncledav (Feb 17, 2010)

Uncle Ben 
Are you watching ?
A question on soil mix. Do you use or have you ever tried Alfalfa pellets in mix ? and do you think it helps


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 17, 2010)

uncledav said:


> Uncle Ben
> Are you watching ?
> A question on soil mix. Do you use or have you ever tried Alfalfa pellets in mix ? and do you think it helps


I dont think your text is large or bold enough to read. Could you up it some more?

Yes, he does use Alfalfa in his soil mixture, as do I. You should either grind the pellets up, or soak it in water for awhile so the coating that holds them together dissolves. 

I think he uses 1 cup per ten gallons of soil or so, but OhsoGreen uses 1 cup per gallon of soil. Huge difference, but Id probably err on the smaller dose.


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## NavySupra (Feb 17, 2010)

I <3 Uncle Ben!


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 17, 2010)

uncledav said:


> Uncle Ben
> Are you watching ?
> A question on soil mix. Do you use or have you ever tried Alfalfa pellets in mix ? and do you think it helps


Mah dohnkie wants to no wats I put in hiss aflfaLfa meel! weebee watchin


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## davesnothere872 (Feb 17, 2010)

Yes, you are indeed the man Uncle Ben. Used the topping technique, and sure enough 4 main colas were formed on every plant every single time, it's foolproof!

This Bong Toke of GDP is dedicated to you!


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 17, 2010)

davesnothere872 said:


> Yes, you are indeed the man Uncle Ben. Used the topping technique, and sure enough 4 main colas were formed on every plant every single time, it's foolproof!
> 
> This Bong Toke of GDP is dedicated to you!


Good oh ya. Keep 'em green!

UB


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## ozh420 (Feb 19, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Mah dohnkie wants to no wats I put in hiss aflfaLfa meel! weebee watchin



 ftw ... haha


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## Guest999 (Feb 19, 2010)

Whats the use of alfalfa pellets in the soil mix?


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## Jolly Green Treat (Feb 19, 2010)

Uncle Ben,

That is a very informative article. Thank you for sharing, sir. Just a question... Is it possible to use this technique (pinching for 2 or 4 colas) in a soil SOG with little or no veg time?


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## NavySupra (Feb 19, 2010)

Jolly Green Treat said:


> Uncle Ben,
> 
> That is a very informative article. Thank you for sharing, sir. Just a question... Is it possible to use this technique (pinching for 2 or 4 colas) in a soil SOG with little or no veg time?


Yes, I'm doing it right now. Though I'm using promix and not "real" soil. Strain is Supreme Skunk and it has no issues staying nice and short if you give it the right environment.

I'm having decent success, other than I need to find a better way to keep the plants close to the light while they are in their first few weeks to reduce stretch. Other than that they are gorgeous plants that make me very hungry.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 19, 2010)

Guest999 said:


> Whats the use of alfalfa pellets in the soil mix?


Provides triacontanol, a hormone.



NavySupra said:


> I'm having decent success, other than I need to find a better way to keep the plants close to the light while they are in their first few weeks to reduce stretch. Other than that they are gorgeous plants that make me very hungry.


Hi NS, sup? Like I wrote you, mobile reflective side panels can really increase light received. I forgot, are you using HID's?


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## riddleme (Feb 19, 2010)

LEDZEP said:


> This has probably already been addressed, but I am too lazy to read all the posts...how long do you have to vegg for after you top?
> Thanks!!


I'm too lazy to answer all the questions


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 19, 2010)

riddleme said:


> I'm too lazy to answer all the questions


Haha. Nice.


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## NavySupra (Feb 19, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Hi NS, sup? Like I wrote you, mobile reflective side panels can really increase light received. I forgot, are you using HID's?


Hey UB!

You don't remember that I'm into all that high tech stuff? I'm using 400w Phillips MasterColor HPS-Retro Whites (cdm400s51/hor/alto/4k). 

It is mounted in a 1.25m tall enclosure with white plastic walls... in fact there is an interior picture of the setup somewhere in this thread... 

I will post some newer pictures later on.

I found a plant that was hermi'ing on me pretty bad, so out came the scissors and it got cut up for smoke... only 33 days in i think. My other plant looks good and is going to be huge if it stays in there much longer... I really should get some updated pictures up.


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## BudgetGrower87 (Feb 19, 2010)

UB this is a impressive plant! I'm going to try this. How long was this plant in flowering at the time of this shot? Great thread, thanks for posting this


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 20, 2010)

NavySupra said:


> Hey UB!
> 
> You don't remember that I'm into all that high tech stuff? I'm using 400w Phillips MasterColor HPS-Retro Whites (cdm400s51/hor/alto/4k).
> 
> ...


Too many to keep up with for this old man. Sorry!



> UB this is a impressive plant! I'm going to try this. How long was this plant in flowering at the time of this shot? Great thread, thanks for posting this


That was a strange plant. It came from the Brothers Grimm In/Out collection and took forever, something like 12 weeks of blooming. I vegged for about 4 weeks from the time it popped the soil's surface. If any of your old timers remember RC (Heavens Stairway seedbank, that got busted by the RMCP) and the Bros Grimm, can you believe I still have quite a few of the Bros In/Out Mix seeds! RC sold me about 20 for a buck a bean. Eat your heart out.


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## NavySupra (Feb 20, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Too many to keep up with for this old man. Sorry!


Well the wife and I will forgive you this time! I still need to get off my ass and get a journal going but now I kind of want to wait until i build the next cabinet to replace the current unit.

I`m really liking the 4 cola though, because while I can only go 2 plants deep instead of 4, I get 8 cola`s instead of 4.

The hermi plant i cut up, 33 days into flowering is a decent amount of reefer and I figure there is at least half an ounce of smokable material.


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## MatanuskaValley (Feb 20, 2010)

what does FIM stand for?


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## riddleme (Feb 20, 2010)

MatanuskaValley said:


> what does FIM stand for?


F*ck I Missed


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## Thestinker (Feb 20, 2010)

Not sure if this is already covered but I do not currently have the time to search through, 
Uncle ben can topping be done at any time? I have a couple of california dream clones now 6 weeks vegging though very short and bushy and 2 unknown indicas of the same statue ( the indicas only 4 weeks and 5 inches shorter) If I top now what will be the outcome ? just stun my plant or produce double colas?
Would be extremely gratefull for help + rep


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## NavySupra (Feb 20, 2010)

Thestinker said:


> Not sure if this is already covered but I do not currently have the time to search through,
> Uncle ben can topping be done at any time? I have a couple of california dream clones now 6 weeks vegging though very short and bushy and 2 unknown indicas of the same statue ( the indicas only 4 weeks and 5 inches shorter) If I top now what will be the outcome ? just stun my plant or produce double colas?
> Would be extremely gratefull for help + rep



I regret to inform you that the kind sir, Uncle Ben is currently unavailable to answer your questions. Please review this thread in order to find the answers you are looking for.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 21, 2010)

Thanks for covering my ass hehe.



NavySupra said:


> Well the wife and I will forgive you this time! I still need to get off my ass and get a journal going but now I kind of want to wait until i build the next cabinet to replace the current unit.


Cabinets, yech! I hate cabinets. 



> I`m really liking the 4 cola though, because while I can only go 2 plants deep instead of 4, I get 8 cola`s instead of 4.
> 
> The hermi plant i cut up, 33 days into flowering is a decent amount of reefer and I figure there is at least half an ounce of smokable material.


Yeah, it has its advantages. Glad you got some smoke!

Later.....


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## sixstring2112 (Feb 21, 2010)

Quick ? uncle ben, i have a very tight plant i topped. master kush, i waited for the 6th node plus about 1-1/2 " on top. the spacing between nodes is VERY tight,maybe 3/4" . i cut between the 2nd and 3rd but the little nub that is left is only about 1/8th to1/3rd " the plant looks good and heathy but no new growth at the cut. the cut has healed up nice and i wonder what your thoughts are on getting 4 colas or just a big fat bush with colas everywhere. i will try to get some pics up soon. it has been about 36 hours from cutting. thanks.


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## Thestinker (Feb 21, 2010)

So my question has gone amiss?


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## Shackleford.R (Feb 21, 2010)

Thestinker said:


> So my question has gone amiss?


see this..



NavySupra said:


> I regret to inform you that the kind sir, Uncle Ben is currently unavailable to answer your questions. Please review this thread in order to find the answers you are looking for.





Thestinker said:


> Not sure if this is already covered but I do not currently have the time to search through


we currently do not have the time to answer this question...

you don't have to search through. look at the top of the thread and use the "Search this thread" function to find your answer.

make the FORUM work for you. not OTHER USERS work for you.

-rep 


Shack


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 21, 2010)

sixstring2112 said:


> Quick ? uncle ben, i have a very tight plant i topped. master kush, i waited for the 6th node plus about 1-1/2 " on top. the spacing between nodes is VERY tight,maybe 3/4" . i cut between the 2nd and 3rd but the little nub that is left is only about 1/8th to1/3rd " the plant looks good and heathy but no new growth at the cut. the cut has healed up nice and i wonder what your thoughts are on getting 4 colas or just a big fat bush with colas everywhere. i will try to get some pics up soon. it has been about 36 hours from cutting. thanks.


I developed this technique because I was growing sativas and wanted an easy way out to shorten plant height. If your internodes are that close, I'm not sure why you want to pinch out this way. 

Regarding your mileage, let's just wait and see. 

Good luck,
UB


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## CyberSecks (Feb 21, 2010)

beautiful man
whats a true node vs a node i think i understand but i dont wanna fuck it up
ive never tried topping before.


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## sixstring2112 (Feb 21, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> I developed this technique because I was growing sativas and wanted an easy way out to shorten plant height. If your internodes are that close, I'm not sure why you want to pinch out this way.
> 
> Regarding your mileage, let's just wait and see.
> 
> ...


 the plant is doing good other than no new growth right at the cut. i really just want 4 main colas because your plant pic looks sweet. I think it is going to work fine, because the branches from the 2nd node are growing very fast now and the branches look like they are starting to bend up a little and fill in the void left from the leader i cut out.I have limited height to work with in my grow room so this should be the ticket. thanks


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 21, 2010)

CyberSecks said:


> beautiful man
> whats a true node vs a node i think i understand but i dont wanna fuck it up
> ive never tried topping before.


A false node would be where your cotyledons are growing from. 

Everything after that is a real node. You know where branches/leaves grow from.

One note, you may end up with a plant whos cotyledons and true set of leaves look like their on the same node. In that case, consider it your first true node. Your avatar would be a prime example of that. 



sixstring2112 said:


> the plant is doing good other than no new growth right at the cut. i really just want 4 main colas because your plant pic looks sweet. I think it is going to work fine, because the branches from the 2nd node are growing very fast now and the branches look like they are starting to bend up a little and fill in the void left from the leader i cut out.I have limited height to work with in my grow room so this should be the ticket. thanks


You dont understand topping that well. Did you closely read the first page? You dont get new growth from the cutting site. Its the lateral branches that grow out and up like the previous main top. You are already experiencing that by what you wrote in your post.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 22, 2010)

sixstring2112 said:


> the plant is doing good other than no new growth right at the cut.


Do you mean below the cut? If you don't understand where the new foliar output comes from, read page one again.


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## Jack in the Bud (Feb 22, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Provides triacontanol, a hormone.
> 
> .......
> ...............


Ben,

Was wondering if you could expand on what the effects might be of giving a plant too much triacontanol.

This last batch of soil I made up (trying to follow some guidelines you posted) ended up with 4 cups of Alfalfa pellets in approximately 75 gallons of mix. I soaked them and then added that wet mash to the pile I was mixing on the floor. I remember at the time having some concern that I wasn't going to get that wet gloppy mash evenly distributed through out the rest of the ingredients. [And in the future I think it might be better to go with grinding them up and adding them as a dry powder to help insure more even distribution through out the mix.]

Any how I've got a couple of plants going that are developing some pretty extreme "fox tailing". In fact quite a bit more than I've experienced with the same strain in the past. And I was wondering if may be I didn't get some "hot spots" of this triacontanol in those particular pots that could be the causation of this.

Jack


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## sixstring2112 (Feb 22, 2010)

You dont understand topping that well. Did you closely read the first page? You dont get new growth from the cutting site. Its the lateral branches that grow out and up like the previous main top. You are already experiencing that by what you wrote in your post.[/QUOTE]
No i understand, I just expected my plant to grow a new node within 24 hours or so like the little nubs you see on U.B.s pic after the cut. maybee his plant already had those 2 nice little branches,whereas mine was so tightly spaced, i was left with only 4 branches and about 1/8'' of a nub. do you understand? I will post a pic when i get a break from this f*ing snow. peace.


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## sixstring2112 (Feb 22, 2010)

The new foliar output response will be quick (within 24 hrs., see photo below) if you have a healthy growing seedling and will be your future main colas - 4 instead of the usual 1:

I thought i read it right the first time but i was high then and i am now I think i might have cut off the new foliar output because this thing was so small. plant does look beautifull now though.


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## BudgetGrower87 (Feb 22, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Too many to keep up with for this old man. Sorry!
> 
> That was a strange plant. It came from the Brothers Grimm In/Out collection and took forever, something like 12 weeks of blooming. I vegged for about 4 weeks from the time it popped the soil's surface. If any of your old timers remember RC (Heavens Stairway seedbank, that got busted by the RMCP) and the Bros Grimm, can you believe I still have quite a few of the Bros In/Out Mix seeds! RC sold me about 20 for a buck a bean. Eat your heart out.


Thanks for the info, killer job on that one.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 22, 2010)

Jack in the Bud said:


> Ben,
> 
> Was wondering if you could expand on what the effects might be of giving a plant too much triacontanol.
> Jack


Weird, unexpected growth, which it sounds like you found out, hah! Any time you mess with mama nature's ho moans, she can produce weird results. Some have reported hearing voices coming from their gardens.  Google triacontanol. You will find info of when a good thing can turn bad. Same thing applies with Superthrive. 



BudgetGrower87 said:


> Thanks for the info, killer job on that one.


Thanks. It was fun.


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## kaer44 (Feb 23, 2010)

uncle ben.., What happens if I fim auto flowering strain ...?

it can be applied on auto flowering...?

thanks 4 ur advice...


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 23, 2010)

kaer44 said:


> uncle ben.., What happens if I fim auto flowering strain ...?
> 
> it can be applied on auto flowering...?
> 
> thanks 4 ur advice...


Since I think FIM is a farce, can't advise ya.


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## mr.smileyface (Feb 23, 2010)

I fim'd a duckfoot like 7 years ago and it grew 4 main colas. I wish i still had that strain. Did you ever get to try the duckfoot? I was a rook and the plant died in a 1 gallon pot outdoor. Never got to taste. I had some good hashplant that year. First plant got about a oz. 14 years young.
did you ever have a plant that didnt grow the 4?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 23, 2010)

mr.smileyface said:


> did you ever have a plant that didnt grow the 4?


It's never failed me.


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## renyman (Feb 23, 2010)

If someone wanted to top twice where would be the best place on the plant to do that


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## alexonfire (Feb 23, 2010)

Hey Ben I was wondering if this technique is best to use as a mother plant? I want to get as many clones off my female plants. I will be vegging the mothers for 6-8 weeks do you think that topping will increase the amount of branches that I can clone with less recovery time because your way is cutting half the plant where I only have a limited amount of time that I can veg there may be less amount of clones that I can get.
I am going to use your technique for my clones once they are in the ground outdoors after they have 6 nodes. I cant wait to try it out - thanks


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## kaer44 (Feb 24, 2010)

Since I think FIM is a farce, can't advise ya

i dont get it... ????

autoflower no good on fim u mean..????


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## riddleme (Feb 24, 2010)

kaer44 said:


> Since I think FIM is a farce, can't advise ya
> 
> i dont get it... ????
> 
> autoflower no good on fim u mean..????


No he means FIM'ing is foolish because there is no control over what happens, it is designed by name to fail, Fu*K I Missed is what fim stands for and most of the time missing is what happens and with topping you get exactly what you go for where as with fim you get what ever happens

Hope that helps


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## PANGcake (Feb 24, 2010)

I did Uncle Ben's topping w out knowing it LOL...or actually my dog did  I fell asleep in the sofa after taking a big hit of Bubblegum, when I woke up 1 plant was "missing". I had fergotten to fill up my dogs water bowl and he knows that green leaves contain water, he eats leaves all the time when where out doors, also had I fergotten door open to grow room. Lesson learned and now I have a "net" in the door post so I can "forget" it open w out any dogs harming my ladies. Anywho...the plant only had few branches left on it w almost no leaves...the top was "missing" above the 2nd node so I just made a clean cut cuz it was "chewed" and kept her as an "experiment plant". It was those 4 branches left and now she has 4 main kolas forming...shame this 1 was bad genetics but now I know how I will top my clones wich are on their way, 3-4 nodes. I was just gonna top them, but now I know how.

Great post UB! You learn something new every day. Thx!

//CaL


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## PANGcake (Feb 24, 2010)

I FIM'd my first ever plant 5 weeks into veg and 1 week before 12/12. It has 4 tops, not kolas as described in UB's topping, but is looking great, but UB's topping makes more sense and seems to be more "accurate". Also the FIM has redirected upward growth to the lower branches, maybe its better to FIM close to 12/12 rather than doing it and letting veg for a longer time?!

edit: "first ever plant" is referring to my first FIM'd plant ever


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## phillygrower (Feb 24, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> At? Is that below or above? The exact point is important reason why I spent a bit of time explaining the hormonal response thingie. If you topped above the 4th node, you'll get a bushy plant with the last output to occur at the lowest node, if at all. You will not get 2 or 4 main colas.
> 
> UB


I was thinking that another topping thread could not possibly help....but this one is the best. I topped most of my plants this cycle and I realize exactly what UB means here. When you top early, the two branches below the "toppping" accelerate and become tops as well. When you do it late you barely get 2 big colas just two smaller ones. 

GREAT POST Uncle Ben


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## ink the world (Feb 25, 2010)

phillygrower said:


> I was thinking that another topping thread could not possibly help....but this one is the best. I topped most of my plants this cycle and I realize exactly what UB means here. When you top early, the two branches below the "toppping" accelerate and become tops as well. When you do it late you barely get 2 big colas just two smaller ones.
> 
> GREAT POST Uncle Ben


Exactly. I tried this and worked like a charm. I topped this as a young clone and used it for a mother plant. 4 Very distinct and beautiful tops. Its DNA Genetics Kushberry x Skunk








Thanks you Ben


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## kaer44 (Feb 26, 2010)

riddleme said:


> No he means FIM'ing is foolish because there is no control over what happens, it is designed by name to fail, Fu*K I Missed is what fim stands for and most of the time missing is what happens and with topping you get exactly what you go for where as with fim you get what ever happens
> 
> Hope that helps


so on autuflowering also give more good result of the cola ?

thanks, riddleme, thats helped...


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 26, 2010)

ink the world said:


> Exactly. I tried this and worked like a charm. I topped this as a young clone and used it for a mother plant. 4 Very distinct and beautiful tops. Its DNA Genetics Kushberry x Skunk
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're welcome. BTW, plant looks a little bronze to me. Giving it enough N or is it the flash?


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## whatsgood (Feb 26, 2010)

how long did you keep the indoor plant with the four main colas in veg for?

thanks,
whatsgood


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 27, 2010)

abc123baby said:


> UB...can this be done to clones (i dont have time to read all posts)?? any modifications or jus top second node above roots?


Wow..If you had read even the last page of this thread, you would have seen a post 4 above yours showing what a topped clone can look like. 

If you're not going to use the search function, at least read the last page next time. 

Sorry if you take this harshly, but your question has been asked many times. The search function is your friend, and people will like you for using it.


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## riddleme (Feb 27, 2010)

abc123baby said:


> UB...can this be done to clones (*i dont have time to read all posts*)?? any modifications or jus top second node above roots?


Then very truthfully you must not have time to grow as your plants will require more attention to detail than this forum does???


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 27, 2010)

I just won't answer the questions that have been addressed a dozen times, BUT, I must say that part of the problem is RIU's unwillingness to allow the thread starter to edit his own thread. 

There are basically 4 redundant questions in this thread which could be addressed on page one in a question/answer format. I would be glad to do it, but only there so we could use it as reference point ("hey dummie, read page one". If done on page Z, it would quickly get lost as the thread evolves. Perhaps someone could convince RIU to back off on his thread lockdown drill. Beats the hell out of me why he does it.

UB


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## NavySupra (Feb 27, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> I just won't answer the questions that have been addressed a dozen times, BUT, I must say that part of the problem is RIU's unwillingness to allow the thread starter to edit his own thread.
> 
> There are basically 4 redundant questions in this thread which could be addressed on page one in a question/answer format. I would be glad to do it, but only there so we could use it as reference point ("hey dummie, read page one". If done on page Z, it would quickly get lost as the thread evolves. Perhaps someone could convince RIU to back off on his thread lockdown drill. Beats the hell out of me why he does it.
> 
> UB


I agree with that!


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## seasmoke (Feb 27, 2010)

I transplanted and topped nine JTRs and the leaves dried up on seven of them....four have grown new sets of leaves quite well but the others look like they are dieing. I used brand new promix with a drop of superthrive per gall. Thats it, no nutes or anything...I transplanted some white rhino clones the same day, in the same soil and they are growing like hell. The PH is on, and the temps are a constant 78*F with 70-80% humidity. Why do you think the JTRs dryed out??


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 27, 2010)

abc123baby said:


> with all the effort to sqwuak on your boxes, might it be easier to JUS answerthe question?? if so many ppl kno...... then short, helpful chimes would be a lot more efficient (maybe post #s???), thus reducing the size of an already long thread with many redundant ANSWERS....regarding the post above...the pic of the topped plant isnt finished...i can't see four pronounced colas...n e ways i wuz curoius to hopefullt hear from sumone that has finished plant pics......or direct UB post links...maybe dats wut deez doe does @ RIU should do...have post links that are noted by the thread starter....if thats wut yaw mean? post links would keep it short...


There are almost 1800 posts in this thread. Do you really think anyone can recall off hand which posts are regarding topping clones? 

If you can't see the four well defined colas on that plant, then you need glasses. Top left, top right, bottom left, and bottom right. Just because the plant isnt flowering, doesn't mean they are not there. 

I have no clue what you were talking about in the last half of your post. I understand grammar, but not street language.


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 27, 2010)

You wont end up with 4 mediocre colas. My topped plants and untopped ones were pretty even in regards to cola size.


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 28, 2010)

abc123baby said:


> thanx DC....
> 
> 
> btw maybe for better reference for mHe, if anyone reading this thread has topped clone pictures that would be helpful....even better if you have final pics b4 harvest too....i saw UB pics and they are great.....surely with all these posters someone must have sum pics that are similar start and finish???......i hope


Well, I dont have any pictures of clones, but Ill throw up some of my lady from seed.

Nirvana WW. She's at 84 days flowering and refuses to leave the tent. She hasn't put on weight in 3 weeks, but the trichomes are still probably 30% Clear/70% Cloudy. I can't find a single amber to save my life.


Here is a before, and a shot at day 84 of flowering I just took. Those autumn colors are purrrty. Buds are turning a light shade of purple from temps dropping down to 60 at lights off.


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## super2200 (Feb 28, 2010)

If you utilize google search instead of RIU search you WILL be given the exact page in the thread as RIU just displays all threads that contain your keywords. Same search in google will show sub searches that are in the same thread and exact pages you need. 

and asking about if you can top a mother plant or not to get more clones, exactly how would you take clones WITHOUT topping? you are just cutting early to create more tops then each cut creates a new split anyway I don't see how you can avoid this. Unless your lollipopping your topping, I am either too stoned or that question does not even make sense


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## seasmoke (Feb 28, 2010)

> Nirvana WW. She's at 84 days flowering and refuses to leave the tent. She hasn't put on weight in 3 weeks, but the trichomes are still probably 30% Clear/70% Cloudy. I can't find a single amber to save my life.


WOW Dave!!, 84 days?? I waited 70 days for my WW from Nirvana to amber and they never did....I grew impateint and cut them...maybe I didn't wait long enough. Everthing else gets 63 days...thats 9 weeks....You have them at 11 weeks...


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 28, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> WOW Dave!!, 84 days?? I waited 70 days for my WW from Nirvana to amber and they never did....I grew impateint and cut them...maybe I didn't wait long enough. Everthing else gets 63 days...thats 9 weeks....You have them at 11 weeks...


My other 3 ladies came down 7 days or so ago. They went from no amber to around 10% overnight it seemed, so I went ahead and cut. This one just doesn't want to cooperate. I think SL2, or something like that chopped one at almost 14 weeks.


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## seasmoke (Feb 28, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> My other 3 ladies came down 7 days or so ago. They went from no amber to around 10% overnight it seemed, so I went ahead and cut. This one just doesn't want to cooperate. I think SL2, or something like that chopped one at almost 14 weeks.


Was his Nirvanas too?
How close are your phenoms?
I'm wondering if we got the same seeds.


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## seasmoke (Feb 28, 2010)

By the way, i'm using that paint and like it quite well.


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## newbiebob (Feb 28, 2010)

i ma getting ready to try this in the next few days 
can someone help me figure out which node is the second true node.
i think it is the 3rd node since the first one does not count. is this correct?
please help i am new


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## Canback (Feb 28, 2010)

Great info. Scribed


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 28, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> Was his Nirvanas too?
> How close are your phenoms?
> I'm wondering if we got the same seeds.


I think he had a different breeder, but not sure whose it is. 

All of my plants were very similar except for one squaty male that was indica dominant.


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## riddleme (Feb 28, 2010)

newbiebob said:


> i ma getting ready to try this in the next few days
> can someone help me figure out which node is the second true node.
> i think it is the 3rd node since the first one does not count. is this correct?
> please help i am new


The little oval leafs that come out first are called cotyledons, they don't count, the next set of leafs are the first true leafs but don't count either (as the plant will drop them) the next set has the first true "branches" and is the first true node, every set that comes out after that is a node and once the plant matures (is ready to flower) they will start to come out unevenly


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 28, 2010)

riddleme said:


> The little oval leafs that come out first are called cotyledons, they don't count, the next set of leafs are the first true leafs but don't count either (as the plant will drop them) the next set has the first true "branches" and is the first true node, every set that comes out after that is a node and once the plant matures (is ready to flower) they will start to come out unevenly


Uhh, the first true set of leaves does count.


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## riddleme (Feb 28, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Uhh, the first true set of leaves does count.


Can you explain why? it is not a node, does not make branches and the plant drops them once it starts making branches

Not saying I'm right, your wrong, just asking for a an explanation???


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## ered603 (Feb 28, 2010)

i have an indoor plant in flowering shes about, id say about one month away crop croping, i need it to be done it a week is there a way to make my buds develope faster?


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 28, 2010)

riddleme said:


> Can you explain why? it is not a node, does not make branches and the plant drops them once it starts making branches
> 
> Not saying I'm right, your wrong, just asking for a an explanation???


Below are a couple of posts in this thread showing plants with lateral branching from the first node. 

https://www.rollitup.org/3781378-post1704.html

https://www.rollitup.org/3744318-post1653.html


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 28, 2010)

ered603 said:


> i have an indoor plant in flowering shes about, id say about one month away crop croping, i need it to be done it a week is there a way to make my buds develope faster?


Your pretty SOL. Just hope you get something smokeable.


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## potpimp (Feb 28, 2010)

Once again, Uncle Ben I am your biggest fan.


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## CyberSecks (Feb 28, 2010)

awsome info but cant you top at anytime before flowering to get 2 colas?
it doesnt have to be the 1st true node


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## riddleme (Mar 1, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Below are a couple of posts in this thread showing plants with lateral branching from the first node.
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/3781378-post1704.html
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/3744318-post1653.html


I dis-agree that these pics show that, to me it appears that there are no branches coming from the first true leaves???

But in fairness I did some research and it would appear that both of us are wrong???

Dictionaries define a node as a place where a leaf is formed

and this botany book defines the first true node as the cotyledons
http://books.google.com/books?id=FM1CAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA329&lpg=PA329&dq=botany+first+true+node&source=bl&ots=gRqv-PHZ6f&sig=P1yuZJnhLs_SZYS4x_dAHLIlSQE&hl=en&ei=gcSLS-j6MYegsgP2v_CGAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Not saying that just one reference in a book makes it right, but it is an interesting read, if you read on it goes to explain that holding back on nutes going into flower increases flowering and feeding nutes inhibits (slows down) flowering

For me where topping is concerned I will continue as I have, but also curious as to what UB has to say on this???


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 1, 2010)

riddleme said:


> The little oval leafs that come out first are called cotyledons, they don't count, the next set of leafs are the first true leafs but don't count either (as the plant will drop them)


Definately counts as the first node, doesn't matter if the plant retains them or not. The issue is where dormant buds reside, and they are located in the petiole's axis, the future main colas. Above ground and those dormant buds differentiate into foliar output, below ground and they differentiate into root output.

Speaking of retaining leaves.....see this plant, notice the tiny leafsets at the bottom, node #1? If I can retain such juvenile leafsets, you can too.  In fact, I think I see the cotyledons still hanging on this plant and it's about 2 months old if memory serves me correct. My cross - O. Haze X C99. The cotyledons are commonly called "seed leaves". Not really true leaves but endosperm used to provide the embryo nutrition.









Good luck,
UB


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## Stoney384 (Mar 1, 2010)

hey UB i was looking at the 1st page on this thread and i noticed on your branch scaffolding on the girl you topped, that all four main cola branches where about the same thickness.

my plant had two branches that where twice as big as the other two.

so my Q is: could this just be because of the different strains, or cause mine was an indica dominant strain?
or was there somthing that i should have done to help them equal out?
or was it just what my plant wanted to do....lol

here is a pic of my scaffolding


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## avoidingindica (Mar 2, 2010)

how many days or weeks does this technique delay the plant?


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 2, 2010)

avoidingindica said:


> how many days or weeks does this technique delay the plant?


Its so little, if even any, that you dont notice it at all.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 2, 2010)

Stoney384 said:


> my plant had two branches that where twice as big as the other two.
> 
> so my Q is: could this just be because of the different strains, or cause mine was an indica dominant strain?


Either "just because" or it was the top 2 that were thicker which is due to apical dominance.



avoidingindica said:


> how many days or weeks does this technique delay the plant?


Depends on the health and vigor of your plant, has little to do with the technique. If your plant is not vigorous then naturally it will take longer to respond or grow out, but the same can be said if it was left untopped. If left alone, you should start to see output in the axils anyway after a short while. This just speeds up the process, IF, you have a well ground seedling/clone.

My seedlings grow very fast, so naturally they will respond quickly to "outside forces".

UB


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## Stoney384 (Mar 2, 2010)

ok cool, thanks UB you the man!!!!


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## Juggalomidgetfahker (Mar 2, 2010)

I had one of my plants lose its top on its own so it split in 2 but one became thick and the other skinny and not as tall...the thick one I topped again just for the heck of it so I should get 3 on that plant....the others have gone too far to do it now...I started 12/12 4 days ago and they are alread 2.5-3ft feet tall....just ordered a bunch of beans though so I will give this a shot next time.

Have you had what I mentioned happen where one side becomes the main stalk and the other looks more like a branch?


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## PANGcake (Mar 2, 2010)

Here's my contribution to this thread. UB's topping performed on clones when they had 5-6 nodes. They have responded very well and one of the clones that I pulled, since it got topped when only 4 nodes grown, I think it didnt have as UB says "enough foliage to support", but it had shot roots like there's no tomorrow...clones are doing very well and I can very well see how the 4 main colas are forming and they are growing some thick stems 

Clones planted in soil







9 days later, UB's topping performed 2 days before pic...







...2 days later and it's growing. Added only Super Vit to the plant water.







Some random pics of topped clones...



























This is the topping technique I will be using from now on  plants responded well, growing nice thick stems and throwing abundance of healthy roots...

Allready +repped and voted 5 stars, can't do it again. Great post!


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 3, 2010)

Dude, wheres your photos at?


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## nelsonjacob (Mar 3, 2010)

should i only top my plants once?


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## rolled1 (Mar 3, 2010)

very nice...and thank you, uncle ben.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 5, 2010)

PANGcake said:


> Here's my contribution to this thread. UB's topping performed on clones when they had 5-6 nodes. They have responded very well and one of the clones that I pulled,
> Some random pics of topped clones...


As mentioned several times in this thread, you will not get 4 main colas on alternating nodes, they must be opposite.

Good luck anyway,
UB


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## Afka (Mar 5, 2010)

Afka said:


>


Turned into (that was around day 25 12/12) Plant has a huge root mass (about 3-4L of volume is offset by them in my rez) to support what is pretty much 4 plants in one.


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## bik (Mar 5, 2010)

Tio Ben,

Cut the girls with a rusty pair of wire snips (a slight exaggeration) when they were at 6 nodes and they are doing great. Your technique has allowed me to grow a lanky sativa (Chocolope) in a constrained space (using T5 lights [8x2' on 2 plants] and DynaGro, tap water, no pH meter or any other meters for that matter).

Pictures below show the plants just before the haircut, and 1, 2, 3 weeks later.

Many Thanks!


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## Cali Grower (Mar 5, 2010)

could i top my plants in SCRoG setup?


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## Consetia (Mar 5, 2010)

Heya Folks - First Grow, with an interesting result. One plant has double branches at each node. At first I thought i did something wrong, but when I took a picture to send, I noticed 2 branches coming from the first node and the 2nd node. NOTE; the other three plants are responding as expected.

Ok not sure if pictures attached - i don't see them if they don't post I will try again


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## riddleme (Mar 5, 2010)

Consetia said:


> Heya Folks - First Grow, with an interesting result. One plant has double branches at each node. At first I thought i did something wrong, but when I took a picture to send, I noticed 2 branches coming from the first node and the 2nd node. NOTE; the other three plants are responding as expected.
> 
> Ok not sure if pictures attached - i don't see them if they don't post I will try againView attachment 737124
> 
> View attachment 737125


Got yourself a mutant, grow em proud


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 5, 2010)

riddleme said:


> Got yourself a mutant, grow em proud


Im high right now, so could you point out how this plant is a mutant for me. All I can see is 2 branches at the first node and second as should be what happens when he topped it. 

I have no clue what the guy is talking about in his post. Even more so his other plants look different than what appears to be the expected outcome of topping.


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## riddleme (Mar 5, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Im high right now, so could you point out how this plant is a mutant for me. All I can see is 2 branches at the first node and second as should be what happens when he topped it.
> 
> I have no clue what the guy is talking about in his post. Even more so his other plants look different than what appears to be the expected outcome of topping.


No I'm stoned, did not notice that he had topped it LOL


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## Consetia (Mar 5, 2010)

riddleme said:


> No I'm stoned, did not notice that he had topped it LOL


If this is what should happen that is crazy - as said before first grow- This is 24 hours later after the topping. The other three plants show continued growth but not a complete new set of branches - Holy Shnikeys

BTW - thanks for the response. 

Nope only partially buzzed, trying to grow more


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 5, 2010)

Consetia said:


> If this is what should happen that is crazy - as said before first grow- This is 24 hours later after the topping. The other three plants show continued growth but not a complete new set of branches - Holy Shnikeys
> 
> BTW - thanks for the response.
> 
> Nope only partially buzzed, trying to grow more


It takes time for those lateral branches to grow out. This particular one in your photos is just more vigorous than its siblings. Hopefully it'll be a female.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 6, 2010)

Afka said:


> Turned into (that was around day 25 12/12) Plant has a huge root mass (about 3-4L of volume is offset by them in my rez) to support what is pretty much 4 plants in one.





bik said:


> Tio Ben,
> 
> Cut the girls with a rusty pair of wire snips (a slight exaggeration) when they were at 6 nodes and they are doing great. Your technique has allowed me to grow a lanky sativa (Chocolope) in a constrained space (using T5 lights [8x2' on 2 plants] and DynaGro, tap water, no pH meter or any other meters for that matter).
> 
> ...


Nice job fellers, plants look really healthy. 



DaveCoulier said:


> Im high right now, so could you point out how this plant is a mutant for me. All I can see is 2 branches at the first node and second as should be what happens when he topped it.
> 
> I have no clue what the guy is talking about in his post. Even more so his other plants look different than what appears to be the expected outcome of topping.


Looks like the original leafsets and the new output to me.

Have a great day,
UB


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## NavySupra (Mar 6, 2010)

Supreme Skunk? Under 400w Philips MasterColor HPS-RetroWhite, cabinet grow.


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 6, 2010)

Nicely done Supra.


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## itsalaugh (Mar 6, 2010)

Hi UB, 
I throughly enjoy your "pearls." I have a two part question. First, when "pinching" how long into veg before you do 'the act" and secondly, I have some smaller nodes above the cotyledons, do you mean the "heavier leaves" count as "one node" instead of the smaller growth underneath? Excuse my ignorance and any reply would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you and may Peace be with you.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 6, 2010)

Yep, nice job Supra.


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## jjfoo (Mar 6, 2010)

itsalaugh said:


> Hi UB,
> I throughly enjoy your "pearls." I have a two part question. First, when "pinching" how long into veg before you do 'the act" and secondly, I have some smaller nodes above the cotyledons, do you mean the "heavier leaves" count as "one node" instead of the smaller growth underneath? Excuse my ignorance and any reply would be greatly appreciated.
> Thank you and may Peace be with you.


this may be a dumb question but have you read the first page of this thread?

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get.html

the 'smaller nodes' above the cotyledons are the first. It doesn't matter if they are not 'heavier', they will grow huge

there are many photos and even drawings and diagrams that make this clear to the point of being redundant

I understand that this is hard to grasp if you have always removed the first nodes because they are small and can create popcorn. If you top correctly you can signal the plant to make those first two sets of nodes into the main colas. Yes they may seem small now, but they will grow when you top.


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## Growzaa (Mar 7, 2010)

What's the average flowering time?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 7, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> this may be a dumb question but have you read the first page of this thread?
> 
> there are many photos and even drawings and diagrams that make this clear to the point of being redundant


Well, some things never cease to amaze me. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/308747-what-second-true-node.html#post3875012



> I understand that this is hard to grasp if you have always removed the first nodes because they are small and can create popcorn. If you top correctly you can signal the plant to make those first two sets of nodes into the main colas. Yes they may seem small now, but they will grow when you top.


Nice job. 

Tell ya what, I'm going to do another one of da Tio Bendejo experiments. In a few weeks after its warmed up a bit, I'm gonna start a couple of plants, let them get up a bit, and top above the cotyledons on one and above the "first true node" on another. I did this once before to see if dormant buds reside at the cotyledon site but forgot the outcome. This will be slow going as its winter and I'll be growing by a window. My prediction will be that the first will die from a lack of foliar output and the other will produce 2 main colas. If anyone else has some indoor lights going and want to try this too, go fer it.

UB


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## NavySupra (Mar 7, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yep, nice job Supra.


So that was my first "real and thought out" plant to be completed... a little early possibly though...

So now I will add a C02 generator and upgrade my cabinet later this year...


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 8, 2010)

NavySupra said:


> So now I will add a C02 generator and upgrade my cabinet later this year...


I think you're wasting your time and money on the CO2 thingie. Whatever....if you do inject CO2, you must meter it and have the right ppm's dialed in relative to lumens and temp and the overall health of the plant. IMO, you'll do much better if you forget the CO2 drill and really delve into plant culture.

Good luck,
UB


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## NavySupra (Mar 8, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> I think you're wasting your time and money on the CO2 thingie. Whatever....if you do inject CO2, you must meter it and have the right ppm's dialed in relative to lumens and temp and the overall health of the plant. IMO, you'll do much better if you forget the CO2 drill and really delve into plant culture.
> 
> Good luck,
> UB


Last time I used a 4L milk jug with yeast+water and there was a noticeable increase in growth with my super cheap DIY C02 gen. Seeing as I want to make some blackberry wine this year I'll use the wine to supplement my C02 for the plants.

Yes you are correct, there is still so much more for me to learn about plant culture, as you put it.


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## Flyboy420 (Mar 8, 2010)

doesnt that wine supposed to be put in a DARK cellar? when you put things in a warm area, they tend to get warm. so like youre screwing your wine cuz you wanna get more co2 into your tent.


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## nelsonjacob (Mar 8, 2010)

should i top at more than one spot on each plant or is it best to just split the plant in the one spot on the very top?


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## NavySupra (Mar 8, 2010)

Flyboy420 said:


> doesnt that wine supposed to be put in a DARK cellar? when you put things in a warm area, they tend to get warm. so like youre screwing your wine cuz you wanna get more co2 into your tent.


Instead of having the one way check valve(water bong essentially) on the jug, I will use a length of food grade hose to pipe the c02 into the checkvalve that would be located in the grow area. This would keep my wine away from direct light and heat.


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## Consetia (Mar 8, 2010)

I've been searching for an answer, maybe Im asking the wrong question. Please bear with me, to understand the question I have to explain a bit, This is my first grow, I should start a grow journal to list all of the mistakes I have made.

Thanks Uncle Ben, Based on some basic advice 38 days later I have 12 seeds that turned into 12 healthy plants; green, good root ball etc. I've topped 4 at the second node after they had 6 nodes. The others I will top as they come along. Here is my issue, What should be my plan to sex the male plants. I was originally thinking of sexing the tops (Im trying to clone them) but when will they be healthy enough (Its been 3 days since they have been rooted)

The other thought is with my limited space and the cost of keeping 12 plants going, should I turn them over to flowering, once I know the sex bring them back to veg state to get a little bigger.

what Im looking for is a suggestion on a recommended strategy to sex male plants when planting from seed


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## Consetia (Mar 8, 2010)

NavySupra said:


> Instead of having the one way check valve(water bong essentially) on the jug, I will use a length of food grade hose to pipe the c02 into the checkvalve that would be located in the grow area. This would keep my wine away from direct light and heat.


  Hmm interesting - I wonder if beer does the same thing, may have to investigate in starting a second hobby. But at this point in my naive growing career I have to agree with Uncle Ben, Get the basics down to grow a healthy plant. I mean hell even my tomatos died outdoors - I like my new gardening hobby - may even be able to produce some food from it


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 9, 2010)

Consetia said:


> what Im looking for is a suggestion on a recommended strategy to sex male plants when planting from seed


You can bag a branch for 10 days making sure there is absolutely NO light leakage or go 12/12 and return to veg if they're too small at that point or keep on going until you confirm sex via pre-flowers.

Good luck,
UB


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## NavySupra (Mar 9, 2010)

Consetia said:


> Hmm interesting - I wonder if beer does the same thing, may have to investigate in starting a second hobby. But at this point in my naive growing career I have to agree with Uncle Ben, Get the basics down to grow a healthy plant. I mean hell even my tomatos died outdoors - I like my new gardening hobby - may even be able to produce some food from it


Beer would also make C02 as it uses yeast to ferment if I remember correctly.

We(my wife and I) have been fairly successful growing food under the lights, and starting plants like brocolli under the lights and then moving them outside to the garden. Something kinda neat about eating a salad you grew in your closet....

As far as the reefer, we're still somewhat hit or miss but getting hits more often and a better understanding of our plants everyday...


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## jjfoo (Mar 9, 2010)

I've heard about people running a line from their water heater and/or pilot lights to get CO2.

I have a tank. I turn off my AC and run the tank. In winter the temp is about 80F. If it gets too hot, I turn off the tank and run the AC. This is all done manually. My partners like CO2 and I jump throw their hoops... I like heavy ventilation. I am in Southern California and live near the coast, the outside climate is really nice and don't really even need AC most of the days.


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## potpimp (Mar 9, 2010)

Holy crap, this has been one LONG thread!! It's taken me over a week to read it all, staying up til 3 am a few nights but it's certainly been worth it. I just can't get over the lazy turds that were too sorry to even read past the first post. How many times did I see "where is the 2nd node?" or "Can I do this to autos?" Gee whiz. I'm greatful for UB's pinch hitters that helped him out so much. I'm sure that gave him some respite to do some honey-dos.

Just planted 99 seeds yesterday and they are out in the sun today, just waiting to breech the soil. I normally do the paper towel germ thing but I decided to trust UB on this one too. I'm all in for Uncle Ben.


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## PANGcake (Mar 9, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> As mentioned several times in this thread, you will not get 4 main colas on alternating nodes, they must be opposite.
> 
> Good luck anyway,
> UB


well its 50/50 so far, sorta...4 have started to grow 4 main colas and 2 have 3 main, 2 have 2 main and 1 of them grew 1 new main cola. They all growing very good 

So what should I do w those growing 3 or 2 or 1 new cola? It's the top node that is growing "best", should I cut of branches at the first node for more growth in the 2 or 3 tops?

Thx! //CaL


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## jjfoo (Mar 9, 2010)

PANGcake said:


> well its 50/50 so far, sorta...4 have started to grow 4 main colas and 2 have 3 main, 2 have 2 main and 1 of them grew 1 new main cola. They all growing very good
> 
> So what should I do w those growing 3 or 2 or 1 new cola? It's the top node that is growing "best", should I cut of branches at the first node for more growth in the 2 or 3 tops?
> 
> Thx! //CaL


are you growing from seed?


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## zenopious (Mar 9, 2010)

Thanks uncle ben


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 10, 2010)

PANGcake said:


> well its 50/50 so far, sorta...4 have started to grow 4 main colas and 2 have 3 main, 2 have 2 main and 1 of them grew 1 new main cola. They all growing very good
> 
> So what should I do w those growing 3 or 2 or 1 new cola? It's the top node that is growing "best", should I cut of branches at the first node for more growth in the 2 or 3 tops?
> 
> Thx! //CaL


Leave it alone.



zenopious said:


> Thanks uncle ben


You're welcome!


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## PANGcake (Mar 10, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> are you growing from seed?


no, from clone.



Uncle Ben said:


> Leave it alone.


I will, thx!

//CaL


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## KpSic (Mar 11, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> *Selecting the point for topping to get 4 main colas* -
> 
> To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node. The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count. The result will be a redistribution of the auxins and other hormones that normally collect in the tissue of the terminal leader's tip. These ho moans will be redistributed to dormant buds that reside in the nodal axis where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk", below the cut. The new foliar output response will be quick (within 24 hrs., see photo below) if you have a healthy growing seedling and will be your future main colas - 4 instead of the usual 1:
> 
> ...


Keeping everything you said constant/as is, if I topped above the _3rd_ node instead of above the 2nd, would I get 6-8 colas instead of 4?


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## potpimp (Mar 11, 2010)

Great story but I think he must have meant to post it somewhere else. BTW, Fairbanks, AK does not have "forests", LOL. They have tundra, tiaga, muskeg and water, lots and lots of water - but no forests.


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## potpimp (Mar 11, 2010)

The schmuck posted that story 7 different times on this forum. I reported his ass; that's spamming and abuse. Sick 'em mods!


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## riddleme (Mar 11, 2010)

KpSic said:


> Keeping everything you said constant/as is, if I topped above the _3rd_ node instead of above the 2nd, would I get 6-8 colas instead of 4?


and if you top above the 5th node you'll get 8 to 10 colas,,,,it's all relevant


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 12, 2010)

KpSic said:


> Keeping everything you said constant/as is, if I topped above the _3rd_ node instead of above the 2nd, would I get 6-8 colas instead of 4?


This thread is about getting 2 or 4 dominant colas based on the principle of apical dominance. It is about getting 4 MAIN (dominant not recessive) colas that are almost as heavy as the typical unpruned one.

UB


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## SIRE (Mar 12, 2010)

whats going on uncle ben i want u to know everythings well with my babies. i have 3 cindy99, 1 bubba kush, and 1 nebula. one of my cindy99 is twins have u ever heard of that? and secondly when and how do u pinch. and do u do this before before topping?


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## PANGcake (Mar 12, 2010)

SIRE said:


> whats going on uncle ben i want u to know everythings well with my babies. i have 3 cindy99, 1 bubba kush, and 1 nebula. one of my cindy99 is twins have u ever heard of that? and secondly when and how do u pinch. and do u do this before before topping?


First of all, I'm baked, second isn't pinching just doing the topping but using ur fingers, "pinch the top of"? I'm pretty sure, but even the Sun has it's spots!


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## Afka (Mar 12, 2010)

If you don't know or understand what you're doing, DON'T DO IT.

Read more, until you understand why you're doing something, instead of doing it (possibly wrong) for no reason other than someone said so.


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## Pipe Dream (Mar 12, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> This thread is about getting 2 or 4 dominant colas based on the principle of apical dominance. It is about getting 4 MAIN (dominant not recessive) colas that are almost as heavy as the typical unpruned one.
> 
> UB


 is it essential to let the plant grow a few nodes before topping to get the right hormone distribution or would topping the 3rd node when it grows produce the same result?


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## jjfoo (Mar 12, 2010)

Pipe Dream said:


> is it essential to let the plant grow a few nodes before topping to get the right hormone distribution or would topping the 3rd node when it grows produce the same result?



have you read the first post on this thread? 

this is from the post

"let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes"

do a little research and you will find most of your questions are addressed in the first page


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## riddleme (Mar 12, 2010)

Pipe Dream said:


> is it essential to let the plant grow a few nodes before topping to get the right hormone distribution or would topping the 3rd node when it grows produce the same result?


It is essential for the plant to be mature enough to handle the stress without stunting growth


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## Pipe Dream (Mar 12, 2010)

well damn that's why I asked I just figured it out earlier and didn't realize the importance of what he meant by main tops until I read the post where he said dominate tops. I just happend to do this by accident but just wanted to verify. I know it was kind of a stupid question...


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## SIRE (Mar 13, 2010)

i thought on one hand u pinch to manage the height on certain strains like sativas and topping was to create the colas? i was asking do u do both and when can u start pinching


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## Sakca (Mar 14, 2010)

SIRE said:


> i thought on one hand u pinch to manage the height on certain strains like sativas and topping was to create the colas? i was asking do u do both and when can u start pinching


The pinching is a technique also means SUPER CROPPING a term for when you scale from the canopy/top of UR own plant and go down 4 nodes and make an injury to make it bend so the whole- still attached top part is going to be stunned and lets the responsive branches grow and the top just rises eventually to the light and thickens; a bit where's "super cropped/PINCHED"

An it just a quick LSTing (LowStressTrain) technique.

-Sakca


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## paco.carioca (Mar 17, 2010)

I have a question thats more related to resizing a plant than to getting the extra colas, i have a mother plant thats about 8 months old and like 7' tall!!. I made a rookie mistake of putting it in a 7 gallon pot thinking it was gonna grow to around 5' but when i realized it was gonna match Yao Ming it was already too late, now i have the "penthouse" very heat stressed cuz their so close to the light and no tenants on the 1st and 2nd floor cuz the light doesnt penetrate that far, im still able to get a lot of very healthy cuttings from the middle but this is starting to become a problem cuz the lady just wont stop growing and pretty soon its gonna hit the ceiling so....

what r my options here?

tx


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## BudgetGrower87 (Mar 17, 2010)

I'd love to see a pic of that plant


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## xbox37 (Mar 17, 2010)

budgetgrower87 said:


> i'd love to see a pic of that plant


uncle ben 

i am about to grow 40 plants in botanical brothers pots and i have done your topping tec but i wanted to ask you about does lights that are out right now there called sun pulse spinner what is your take on them


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## ElectricPineapple (Mar 17, 2010)

ok, ive searched your thread on your topping technique, but i want to know is how much does the act of getting 4 colas increase yield versus one. its my understanding that the energy the plant would have used for that one single cola would just be redistributed to the 4 colas, only increasing yield a little bit. some one in another thread in which we were discussing your technique said it double the yield per plant. is this accurate? if it is then im definitely topping all of them. but if not them im only going to top a few to compare. 

pine


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## Mr.Sativa (Mar 17, 2010)

Shoot, got a rokkie question. If i have cloned cuttings, how can i find out the second true node? Since i have only alternating leaves?

legalize!! =)


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 17, 2010)

ElectricPineapple said:


> ok, ive searched your thread on your topping technique, but i want to know is how much does the act of getting 4 colas increase yield versus one*. its my understanding that the energy the plant would have used for that one single cola would just be redistributed to the 4 colas, only increasing yield a little bit. some one in* another thread in which we were discussing your technique said it double the yield per plant. is this accurate? if it is then im definitely topping all of them. but if not them im only going to top a few to compare.
> 
> pine


When you stop and think about it, that just doesn't make a lot of sense(part I made bold).

The plant is going to put as much resources into reproducing, so why would it not maximize its chances by filling out 4 nice colas?

I doubt the plant remembers it only had one main cola, and therefor must allocate resources used for that equally among for new colas. I just dont see that happening.

I dont have alot of harvests in using topping, but on my first try leaving a plant untopped it yielded 5 grams less vs the topped plants. Even my ugliest, unhealthiest two topper yielded just as much as the untopped healthy plant.

Ive got 3 more plants drying out right now that were left untopped, and I can tell they would have yielded alot more hand I topped them. Now that my little experiment is done, Ill be topping from now on.



Mr.Sativa said:


> Shoot, got a rokkie question. If i have cloned cuttings, how can i find out the second true node? Since i have only alternating leaves?
> 
> legalize!! =)


Just look at the bottom of the clone, and count upwards each time you see a set of alternating branches. Right above the second set is where you would top to _try_ and get 4 tops. Results may not be consistent since they are clones.


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## Pipe Dream (Mar 17, 2010)

paco.carioca said:


> I have a question thats more related to resizing a plant than to getting the extra colas, i have a mother plant thats about 8 months old and like 7' tall!!. I made a rookie mistake of putting it in a 7 gallon pot thinking it was gonna grow to around 5' but when i realized it was gonna match Yao Ming it was already too late, now i have the "penthouse" very heat stressed cuz their so close to the light and no tenants on the 1st and 2nd floor cuz the light doesnt penetrate that far, im still able to get a lot of very healthy cuttings from the middle but this is starting to become a problem cuz the lady just wont stop growing and pretty soon its gonna hit the ceiling so....
> 
> what r my options here?
> 
> tx


hey man just get some clones from her and raise those up to be your new mommas. One those are big enough to top just chop that huge girl down to size and if she dies you got replacement mommas if she doesn't do whatever you want. Or you could just kill her at that point. Vegging mommas don't necesarily need a lot of light maybe you could get some cfls or something just for her so the rest of your plants could benefit from the more intense light. Or just kinda put her in a corner where she gets less intense light.


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## ElectricPineapple (Mar 17, 2010)

exactly. and it does the same with one cols. just because it now has 4 colas, other thatn being bushier and having more leaves would effect its energy level. what im saying is that is do the 4 cola's get as big the the cola if it had one if they did then i see the yield increase. im not dissing ths technique just trying to understand the increase of yield a little bit more.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2010)

paco.carioca said:


> what r my options here?
> 
> tx


Only one - cut it off, take out the top to a manageable size.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2010)

xbox37 said:


> uncle ben
> 
> i am about to grow 40 plants in botanical brothers pots and i have done your topping tec but i wanted to ask you about does lights that are out right now there called sun pulse spinner what is your take on them


I have no take on them.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2010)

ElectricPineapple said:


> its my understanding that the energy the plant would have used for that one single cola would just be redistributed to the 4 colas, only increasing yield a little bit.


I'm not sure what you mean by the often used, loose term "energy". Only energy I know of is from photosynthesis - the production of simple and complex carbos, proteins, etc.

Four colas should produce 4 times the leaf mass of one cola. It's leaf mass that drives production. 4X the leaf mass=4X the bud production. Of course it's got to balanced out with root mass.

UB


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## ElectricPineapple (Mar 17, 2010)

yes i was referring to photosynthesis as referred to energy. i think because i am a science major i forget to mention how the energy is being made because i assume everyone else know where the energy is coming from. as to the limit of the energy was based on the amount of leaves and leaf mass. but you did answer my question and thank you. if it creates 4 times the leaf mass then yes it would greatly increase yield. 

Thank you Uncle Ben, you are truly a master when it comes to growing anything, especially cannabis

Pine


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## jjfoo (Mar 17, 2010)

ElectricPineapple said:


> because i am a science major i forget to mention how the energy is being made because i assume everyone else know where the energy is coming from.



actually, energy isn't being made but is being transformed

energy is never created or destroyed...

see: the conservation of energy and the first laws of thermodynamics


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 18, 2010)

ElectricPineapple said:


> yes i was referring to photosynthesis as referred to energy. i think because i am a science major i forget to mention how the energy is being made because i assume everyone else know where the energy is coming from. as to the limit of the energy was based on the amount of leaves and leaf mass. but you did answer my question and thank you. if it creates 4 times the leaf mass then yes it would greatly increase yield.
> 
> Thank you Uncle Ben, you are truly a master when it comes to growing anything, especially cannabis
> 
> Pine


Thanks. Now, let's take this a bit further regarding this "energy" - food reserves. Probably best to compare the stored food reserves of say a grapevine (perennial) and an annual, cannabis. Regarding grapes, if you split the "energy" stored from the previous year's wood between 10 shoots versus 20 due as you do your winter pruning, naturally the 10 buds left will produce more robust and vigorous shoots than if 20 buds had been left. You're kinda splitting up this energy. I think some kind of law of diminishing returns applies to cannabis. (That's a feeling not a fact.) One of the reasons why I chose 4 versus topping above the 8th node and getting a bushier plant is the latter "thins" down this energy a bit regarding the plant's other resources. IOW, one cola is not enough for me, 4 is plenty regarding this balancing act, and that's all growing pot is, a balancing act. You must find your own program as it relates to general botany, your garden's resources and such. 

Back to energy.....I often advise folks to provide at least a 15F differential from day to night time temps. You don't want the plant burning up all of its daily carbo production to respiration, you want it to go toward cellulose production.

UB


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## BudgetGrower87 (Mar 18, 2010)

hey UB my garden is looking amazing from this technique you have. + rep very valuable thread.


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## Pumert (Mar 18, 2010)

Does this work for males????


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## riddleme (Mar 18, 2010)

Pumert said:


> Does this work for males????


Yes, but why bother???


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## BudgetGrower87 (Mar 18, 2010)

yeah it does, i did it to two of my males for pollen collection i can tell ya how it goes!


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## laceygirl (Mar 19, 2010)

BudgetGrower87 said:


> hey UB my garden is looking amazing from this technique you have. + rep very valuable thread.


Wow you are not going to have much room in that tent if you plan to flower in there...lol...


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## BudgetGrower87 (Mar 19, 2010)

its gonna be fun watchin it grow, their is a link in my sig if you feel like checkin it out through flowering. @ day 31 1st day of flower is today


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## potpimp (Mar 19, 2010)

BudgetGrower87 said:


> hey UB my garden is looking amazing from this technique you have. + rep very valuable thread.


Wow, not only are those coming along great with 4 main colas, the foliage is absolutely beautiful; peak of health. +rep.


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## Pumert (Mar 19, 2010)

riddleme said:


> Yes, but why bother???


Yanoe what hemp is right? one of the most useful renewable resource since air


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 20, 2010)

BudgetGrower87 said:


> hey UB my garden is looking amazing from this technique you have. + rep very valuable thread.


They look very healthy!

Keep 'em green,
UB


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## rupert pupkin (Mar 20, 2010)

i have a question. i have some strains in the cloner that are gonna come up as mothers, should i leave them alone or top them? of course i'm lookin to pull the most clones possible from each mother.
thanks


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## ToKeDAILY (Mar 20, 2010)

Beautiful plants just beautiful. im going to try this with one of mine. if all goes well i might just do this from now on, this looks like a great way to increase yield. and everyone is trying to do that.


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## buckwinkle (Mar 20, 2010)

Hey Ben i had a question. I'm not sure if you have covered this already, but i've gone through many pages from this thread but i couldn't really find it.

I'd first like to say that i plan on using this topping technique, amazing. Although...

You recommend topping at the 5th or 6th node and i understand completely why. I've noticed that with the growth of one node you can see the next starting to form. now when you say to top when the plant has the 5th or 6th node, does this mean that you just have to identify that it is starting to grow the 5th or 6th... or does the node need to be completely formed. i realize the only reason you need to wait is for the plant to get a health root system going so it can bounce back quickly. The reason i ask this is because i'm going into my 3rd week of growth from the time it sprouted and my plants all have the 5th node starting and 1 of them is already going on its 7th so i know that one is ready. i just wanted to do them all at the same time, and i read that the 3rd and 4th week of vegetative growth is the time when you want to create a stress free enviroment to insure that you get a better ratio of females to males. (i.e. blue light as apposed to red, lower temps as opposed to high, humid rather than dry, stress vs no stress). Also it goes on to say that the 2nd week of vegetative growth would be the best time to do any pruning so that the 3rd and 4th weeks are stress free.

I'm growing 3 plants all diff strains. 2 of them bagseed and 1 grape so i'd like to get 3 diff females going and i figured your topping technique is an awsome way to get a better yield out of these ladies

I'm sorry if this is a hassle to answer lol you've got plenty of people asking stupid questions, but your advice and knowledge is appreciated. what do you think?


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## Sure Shot (Mar 20, 2010)

Maybe this will help Buckwinkle.
This is my take on Ben's technique.


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## freddog23 (Mar 20, 2010)

sorry im kinda new to this and need some help. i know uncle ben says that the node with the cotyledons doesnt count. does that mean that the first node is the one with the first set of fan leaves? which really looks like the third node right? in other words the node that has the leaves with no marijuana shape does not count?


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## freddog23 (Mar 20, 2010)

nvm i think i got it lol. anyway before i found this thread i tried the FIM technique. and now i realized i cut at the top of the 4th node. can i let if grow back up to the the 5th node and than cut back at the second node for 4 colas? or should i just cut it at the second node, without letting it grow some more? i would appreciate the responce. im new to growing and im glad i grew plenty of plants just in case i mad mistakes like these. so i have other to expiriment with.


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 20, 2010)

freddog23 said:


> nvm i think i got it lol. anyway before i found this thread i tried the FIM technique. and now i realized i cut at the top of the 4th node. can i let if grow back up to the the 5th node and than cut back at the second node for 4 colas? or should i just cut it at the second node, without letting it grow some more? i would appreciate the responce. im new to growing and im glad i grew plenty of plants just in case i mad mistakes like these. so i have other to expiriment with.


Your plant will not regrow to a 5th node on the central stalk. Once you top a plant, the side shoots grow out. Now those you could retop later on for an even bushier plant. 

Just go ahead and cut back above the second node now. If you are still somewhat confused about where to top, check out the last 5 or 6 pages here and there probably is a picture with a diagram.


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## freddog23 (Mar 20, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Your plant will not regrow to a 5th node on the central stalk. Once you top a plant, the side shoots grow out. Now those you could retop later on for an even bushier plant.
> 
> Just go ahead and cut back above the second node now. If you are still somewhat confused about where to top, check out the last 5 or 6 pages here and there probably is a picture with a diagram.


 thanks i really appreciate it. i did go back and just cut above the second, i also did one above the first to see which one i like better. 2 or 4. which do you preffer? do you reccomend me to do these on my white widow plants. they are onlya week in but if i see good results ill do it to them also.


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## rupert 2206 (Mar 20, 2010)

Very interesting thread but if I could ask a question? It is my first grow and as the books say flush you plants for 7 to 10 days before harvest. The books say harvest when you have 50% amber stamens. How does one know when to start the 7 to 10 day flush? When the stamens start turning amber? How long does it usually take for them to turn amber once they start? Thanks for your input and time.


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## freddog23 (Mar 20, 2010)

okay i have another question. once you decide wether you want 2 or 4 colas, how much do you cut above the node? im looking for a measurement. half inch above the second node. 1/8 of an inch? one inch? or just flush with the start of the node? input will be appreciated.


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 20, 2010)

freddog23 said:


> thanks i really appreciate it. i did go back and just cut above the second, i also did one above the first to see which one i like better. 2 or 4. which do you preffer? do you reccomend me to do these on my white widow plants. they are onlya week in but if i see good results ill do it to them also.


I would go for four. You should definitely get more yield at 4 than 2. 

My first two grows/harvests was Nirvana White Widow, and they all responded well to topping and outperformed the untopped plants easily.




rupert 2206 said:


> Very interesting thread but if I could ask a question? It is my first grow and as the books say flush you plants for 7 to 10 days before harvest. The books say harvest when you have 50% amber stamens. How does one know when to start the 7 to 10 day flush? When the stamens start turning amber? How long does it usually take for them to turn amber once they start? Thanks for your input and time.


Dont judge by pistils turning orange/brown. Its gonna cause you to likely harvest early. Get yourself a pocket microscope to check out trichomes so you can get an idea how far along they are. 



freddog23 said:


> okay i have another question. once you decide wether you want 2 or 4 colas, how much do you cut above the node? im looking for a measurement. half inch above the second node. 1/8 of an inch? one inch? or just flush with the start of the node? input will be appreciated.


I just snip somewhere in the middle.


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## xbox37 (Mar 21, 2010)

im growing some sour d and some haze witch are both good yielders i wanted to no if i was to cute at 2nd node can i get a pound a plant and if not how close give or take


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## crusty420 (Mar 21, 2010)

uncle ben im a week into flowering and have decided i want to try this on a couple more plants. is it to late?


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 21, 2010)

xbox37 said:


> im growing some sour d and some haze witch are both good yielders i wanted to no if i was to cute at 2nd node can i get a pound a plant and if not how close give or take


Original Haze isn't exactly a good yielder..Google Tom Hill's Haze or Sam the Skunkman Haze if you want to learn more about O. Haze. 

As to your question. I dont even think an outdoor O. Haze would put up a pound, let alone indoors. 

If you want to pull a pound indoors, you need an extended veg time, and a good yielding plant, with *lots* of room to grow them. MBlaze would be the guy to show you how to grow indoor trees. Check out some of his threads.


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## laceygirl (Mar 21, 2010)

rupert 2206 said:


> Very interesting thread but if I could ask a question? It is my first grow and as the books say flush you plants for 7 to 10 days before harvest. The books say harvest when you have 50% amber stamens. How does one know when to start the 7 to 10 day flush? When the stamens start turning amber? How long does it usually take for them to turn amber once they start? Thanks for your input and time.


You really need to read this thread...

www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/210501-zeuss-take-harvesting.html

Hope it helps you... I grew White Widow last grow and it took 12 weeks to flower... Widow takes that long... I know it sucks but it will be worth it...


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## freddog23 (Mar 21, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Original Haze isn't exactly a good yielder..Google Tom Hill's Haze or Sam the Skunkman Haze if you want to learn more about O. Haze.
> 
> As to your question. I dont even think an outdoor O. Haze would put up a pound, let alone indoors.
> 
> If you want to pull a pound indoors, you need an extended veg time, and a good yielding plant, with *lots* of room to grow them. MBlaze would be the guy to show you how to grow indoor trees. Check out some of his threads.


i know you said you cut it about the middle of the node. what if i didnt, and cut about an 1/8 of an inch above the node. i grew extra plants for mistakes like these so if its a proble i have others. do you think they will be ok if i cut an 1/8 of an inch above the node.


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## freddog23 (Mar 21, 2010)

freddog23 said:


> i know you said you cut it about the middle of the node. what if i didnt, and cut about an 1/8 of an inch above the node. i grew extra plants for mistakes like these so if its a proble i have others. do you think they will be ok if i cut an 1/8 of an inch above the node.


once again thanks UB


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## Johnnyprocrops (Mar 21, 2010)

Hi UncleBen and all others, i didnt read the whole thread since its so long but im thinking of using this technique on some autos.
Does this work with autos too?


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## Pumert (Mar 21, 2010)

Johnnyprocrops said:


> Hi UncleBen and all others, i didnt read the whole thread since its so long but im thinking of using this technique on some autos.
> Does this work with autos too?


it should work but your taking a big chance unless you get confirmation from sum1 who has actually done it


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 21, 2010)

freddog23 said:


> i know you said you cut it about the middle of the node. what if i didnt, and cut about an 1/8 of an inch above the node. i grew extra plants for mistakes like these so if its a proble i have others. do you think they will be ok if i cut an 1/8 of an inch above the node.


It doesn't matter if you leave half an inch or 1/8th. Dont worry about it.


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## freddog23 (Mar 21, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> It doesn't matter if you leave half an inch or 1/8th. Dont worry about it.


alright thans a lot dave. im stress free now lol


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## Flyboy420 (Mar 21, 2010)

hey i have a question ,and i dont know where to post it, so i will post it here, anyone can direct mail me and answer it , but it would also be beneficial if everyone heard the question and the answer
Q: I was considering going to the hydroponic store and getting this stuff called REVERSE. It supposedly reverses a plant from being a male and staying female. It is also reccommended that you use penetrator, but i didnt want to buy the stuff until i heard something more concrete about it. does it work? does it(reverse) keep the plant from forming male banana pollen sacks and keep it female? does anyone have any personal experiences , make a new thread and send me the link to it. because my plants are only cytlodons + the 1 leaf above it. so i wanna spray the plant before it starts showing any sex at all. 
thanks.


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## Bpootner (Mar 21, 2010)

when is the best time to cut it off at the node?


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## Flyboy420 (Mar 21, 2010)

Bpootner said:


> when is the best time to cut it off at the node?


 its on page 1!


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 21, 2010)

Flyboy420 said:


> hey i have a question ,and i dont know where to post it, so i will post it here, anyone can direct mail me and answer it , but it would also be beneficial if everyone heard the question and the answer
> Q: I was considering going to the hydroponic store and getting this stuff called REVERSE. It supposedly reverses a plant from being a male and staying female. It is also reccommended that you use penetrator, but i didnt want to buy the stuff until i heard something more concrete about it. does it work? does it(reverse) keep the plant from forming male banana pollen sacks and keep it female? does anyone have any personal experiences , make a new thread and send me the link to it. because my plants are only cytlodons + the 1 leaf above it. so i wanna spray the plant before it starts showing any sex at all.
> thanks.


I wouldn't waste a single penny on either, and I dont even know what penetrator is.

Ive read about the Reverse before somewhere. I can't recall exactly. The gist of it was that it helps keep females from going hermy, but it wont change a male into a female. 

I know you'd love to have all females, but the only way you can get close to that is fem'd seeds. I prefer to do it the way mother nature intended myself. Plus breeding can actually be fun! Give it a go.


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## xbox37 (Mar 22, 2010)

Hey uncle ben 
i am looking for yield and i will be topping all of them im doing 80 plants how many 600 should i get and i no mh is best for veg should i use it or go hps from veg to flw 

have you had a chance to look at mblaze post and if so what do you think


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## BlackMafia420 (Mar 22, 2010)

good knowledge


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## erice73 (Mar 23, 2010)

About how long should you typically veg for after topping?


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## riddleme (Mar 23, 2010)

erice73 said:


> About how long should you typically veg for after topping?


Give em at least 4 days to recover, and then it is totally up to you understanding that it will get 2 times bigger for sure and some strains go 3 times bigger, it's all about planning your garden


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 24, 2010)

erice73 said:


> About how long should you typically veg for after topping?


About how long would it take for you to read the first couple of pages?


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## Crystal Toy (Mar 24, 2010)

Hello all noob here, would like to show much respect to Uncle Ben and many others for all their knowledge. Got a minor Q started from seed , had overfert earlier but bounced back so lost first 2 leaves to sickness, can i still cut at 2nd node if it's just starting new leaves? plz say yes lol thanks in advance


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## vertise (Mar 24, 2010)

ok I will start off by saying I did not read this entire thread. Quick question that may have been answered. From your experience does this 4 cola method work with most strains or are there some that will respond poorly to it. Obviously there are too many strains to know for sure. Are there strains that you have grown that respond poorly to this method.


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## erice73 (Mar 24, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> About how long would it take for you to read the first couple of pages?


 I have read quite a few pages but I aso have some trainwreck screwing me all up and got al sorts of lazy. Someone obviously didnt think it was too much of a pain in the ass to answer. Sorry if you thought it was.


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## jjfoo (Mar 25, 2010)

erice73 said:


> I have read quite a few pages but I aso have some trainwreck screwing me all up and got al sorts of lazy. Someone obviously didnt think it was too much of a pain in the ass to answer. Sorry if you thought it was.


I don't think it is too much to answer, it is that it has already been answered. If I where you I'd try to do your own research as much as possible, you'll learn a lot more that way. Being lazy doesn't work well when growing. It will cause your plants to suffer. So if you are rendered lazy and blame trainwreck (this is rarely true) I suggest you ease up a bit and take note.


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## blackoctopussy (Mar 25, 2010)

thx UB for your methodology (4 colas, plant moisture and all the great great advice you share). I'm a nooby, read all kinds of stuff and since I switched to your approach everything is going great and smooooooth  Like many others said, I've learned more with you than all the others !! FYI I'm combining all your tweaks associated with Subcool's soil approach. Now just adding plain water , no more liquid nutes. 

Look forward to reading new posts by you as I've read every single one thave you've wrote.

Respect and a little hello from France.


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## webb107 (Mar 25, 2010)

nice thread man lots of great info


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## xbox37 (Mar 25, 2010)

UB i no you get tired of answering the same thing over and over but you intimidate ppl your like a god of growing so plss hav a little slack on us noobz 

i hav read this thread like 2 times and not one person said how long to veg for after topping and if they did then we must be over looking it not to mind this is a pretty big a$$ thread thanks for all your no how +rep


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## vertise (Mar 25, 2010)

no one said how long to veg for cause its not relevant to topping. Veg for however long you want after you top your plant above the 2 node. Veg for a week a month a year...However big you want your plant


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## xbox37 (Mar 25, 2010)

vertise said:


> no one said how long to veg for cause its not relevant to topping. Veg for however long you want after you top your plant above the 2 node. Veg for a week a month a year...However big you want your plant


i sort of new that i just wanted to hear someone say it and for me not to sound like a ass but ON PAGE 26 UB TELLS YOU HOW LONG TO VEG BUT THANKS BRO


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## vertise (Mar 25, 2010)

its really all about how long you want to veg. Theres nothing that one can say that would be a definite answer. If he did state it, its just a general time stamp. Its entirely however up to the grower. I know people who top and just go straight to flowering without a veg time after they top there plants. they get fine results. Read some more about growing, I did when i first started. You will find yourself answering your own questions, and will be less of a noob.


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## HappyGrowing86 (Mar 25, 2010)

theres no limit to what you can do... i get more weight with a plant that has somewhere between twenty and thirty top colas. 2 or even four top colas is nothing... heres a plant with 25 same size top colas


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## HappyGrowing86 (Mar 25, 2010)

sorry here's the pics


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## sixstring2112 (Mar 25, 2010)

HappyGrowing86 said:


> sorry here's the pics


 that thing is sick nice shrub


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## Crystal Toy (Mar 26, 2010)

Quick Q. can a cutting after a week of rootting get topped as well? thanks in advance


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## vertise (Mar 26, 2010)

happygrowing 86 how do you top to get that nice plant you got there.


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## voodoofx (Mar 26, 2010)

HappyGrowing86 said:


> sorry here's the pics


I bought some "OG" clones but who knows what they are, but they look a lot like yours. My buds are heavy! See pics.


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## erice73 (Mar 26, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> I don't think it is too much to answer, it is that it has already been answered. If I where you I'd try to do your own research as much as possible, you'll learn a lot more that way. Being lazy doesn't work well when growing. It will cause your plants to suffer. So if you are rendered lazy and blame trainwreck (this is rarely true) I suggest you ease up a bit and take note.


 Look I asked a simple question if someone thinks its a waste of time to answer they dont have to its just that simple. I am not trying to be rude by any means but instead of getting annoyed by repeat question just ignore it. Sorry for making the thread too long with my stupid question.


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## Consetia (Mar 26, 2010)

Hey UB
Or any of the others willing to share some of their knowledge.

I heard a few times that a 5 gallon bucket is too big and specifically "Be cautious of root rot". Well of course this is my first grow and what did I use? Twelve 5 gallon bucket's for 12 plants. Yep lugged them suckers up stairs to the attick. Ahhh the ambition of the naive.

I also read the thread about "making it rain" 

The 5 gallon buckets take forever to need water (that is working out well for me)

I watered all 12 plants to run-off - they seem to be hanging in there. Note: after the transplant into the 5 gallon bucket I didnt' water for 3 weeks.

Here is the question: How do I be cautious or carefull regarding root rot? Do I let the buckets dry out a tad more i.e., water again in a couple weeks? I realize the issue the root system is not wicking up the bottom water. 

Most of the plants are bushy and healthy about 20inches tall. the sativia strain just wants to grow tall - Glad I topped it....

Any guidance on what to do with the 12 plants in 5 gallon buckets is much appreciated. BTW - I wouldn't have gottent this far with out a few basic concepts e.g., Less is more, let them grow. My thinking is water cautiously, leave well enough alone, turn them over to flower, and this is a lesson learned


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## Crystal Toy (Mar 27, 2010)

can someone plz anwser me this question. After topping and cloning top, can I top the cuttings after a week of rooting? thanks in advance


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## doogleef (Mar 28, 2010)

Yes. "Cuttings" that have been rooted and growing for a week are called "plants"  Feel free to top them. Don't expect clones to react the same way though. Ho-mones r different.


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## Crystal Toy (Mar 28, 2010)

thank you doogleef for ur reply but what do u mean "Don't expect clones to react the same way though. Ho-mones r different" in what way thanks in advance


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 28, 2010)

Crystal Toy said:


> thank you doogleef for ur reply but what do u mean "Don't expect clones to react the same way though. Ho-mones r different" in what way thanks in advance


The alternating branches of clones make it harder to get the same outcome as topping a plant from seed. If you remove the top of a plant, the highest branch(es) becomes the new top(s). Now with seeds, we have two branches at same height/level, so they both become the dominant colas. Typically 2-4 main colas from topping is what you'll get if done in the right spot. Ive tried for more than 4 once before, and it didn't work, so Ill stick to what works next time. 

You may be able to get 2-4 dominant colas with clones from topping, but dont expect consistent results because of the alternating branches.


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## Crystal Toy (Mar 28, 2010)

thank you Dave, i was just scared it would not grow strong as i just want to clone it. if it gets more colas GREAT if not no biggie just want MORE.lol


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## jjfoo (Mar 28, 2010)

doogleef said:


> Yes. "Cuttings" that have been rooted and growing for a week are called "plants"  Feel free to top them. Don't expect clones to react the same way though. Ho-mones r different.


Which hormones are different? I was not aware of this. How does this affect the behavior?


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## doogleef (Mar 28, 2010)

See page 1 for info on the auxins responsible.


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## voodoofx (Mar 29, 2010)

Here is a pic of my sorta attempt at Uncle Ben's technique. A bit different.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 29, 2010)

blackoctopussy said:


> thx UB for your methodology (4 colas, plant moisture and all the great great advice you share). I'm a nooby, read all kinds of stuff and since I switched to your approach everything is going great and smooooooth  Like many others said, I've learned more with you than all the others !! FYI I'm combining all your tweaks associated with Subcool's soil approach. Now just adding plain water , no more liquid nutes.
> 
> Look forward to reading new posts by you as I've read every single one thave you've wrote.
> 
> Respect and a little hello from France.


Welcome to RIU from France. I'll take some of your best years of Margaux! 



xbox37 said:


> i sort of new that i just wanted to hear someone say it and for me not to sound like a ass but ON PAGE 26 UB TELLS YOU HOW LONG TO VEG BUT THANKS BRO


No I didn't, I said it was your call, (my forum) page 28, post 555. And on (my forum) page 26, 501, I said *" It is not strain dependent. Hormones are hormones whether they reside in a sativa, indica or your typical mutt."*

 READ PEOPLE! This should be a college, not a grade school!
 
Consetia, wrong thread but I'll answer anyway, as I have in other threads. If you have a heavy mass of foliage and a robust healthy root system, it is almost impossible to overwater a plant as it will quickly wick off excess soil moisture via heavy transpiration. The issue is not so much too much water as the exclusion of air at the root zone. Having said that, it's better to match the size of the pot to the size of the plant. A seedling does not belong in a 5 gallon pot. Don't water again until the pot feels light to the lift and make sure your pots aren't in standing water. You can set them in plant saucers that have fairly tall sides and use a turkey baster to suck up excess water. Use this tea on other plants.

Good luck,
UB


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## Consetia (Mar 29, 2010)

Thank You - Yes wasn't sure what thread to post in, or how to find one, or.... - its tough there seems to be a lot of BS around and a couple peeps I can tell that know whats going on. 

I'll let them dry a bit, the root mass is doing good. First Grow has been fun but as they age it gets a little intense. We are kinda like doting parents. Thanks again for your time.

Oh BTW - I have a GIRL! the excitement was kinda funny just needed to share. 

What Im finding - girls are easy to spot, the boys well, lets let em age and look again in a week.


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## Pumert (Mar 29, 2010)

voodoofx said:


> Here is a pic of my sorta attempt at Uncle Ben's technique. A bit different.


how many main kolas u get??


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## Pumert (Mar 29, 2010)

HappyGrowing86 said:


> sorry here's the pics


how the fuck you manage that??? LST?? thats fucking awesome you gotta let the community in on your secret


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## boxing119 (Mar 30, 2010)

hey so i have read a ton of post on this thread and still don't feel like i really know what Im doing well enough to go and cut my plants to get the four colas, I am unsure when in the veg stage you actually cut, how long after i cut should i veg, and also most importantly where exactly to cut if someone could please explain this is the most simple of terms that would be amazing.


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## alexonfire (Mar 30, 2010)

boxing119 said:


> hey so i have read a ton of post on this thread and still don't feel like i really know what Im doing well enough to go and cut my plants to get the four colas, I am unsure when in the veg stage you actually cut, how long after i cut should i veg, and also most importantly where exactly to cut if someone could please explain this is the most simple of terms that would be amazing.


Cut above the second node after you have about 4-6 nodes - Simple


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## jjfoo (Mar 30, 2010)

boxing119 said:


> hey so i have read a ton of post on this thread and still don't feel like i really know what Im doing well enough to go and cut my plants to get the four colas, I am unsure when in the veg stage you actually cut, how long after i cut should i veg, and also most importantly where exactly to cut if someone could please explain this is the most simple of terms that would be amazing.



Is this guy trolling? I'm not sure if this post is serious or just trying to get some to get a reaction like "read the first page" or "learn how to read".

I don't want to be an asshole but I don't want to feed trolls... This seems like a joke post to me.

I mean "so I don't have to read a ton of posts", why not try the first post then the rest? Try to value reading and doing the small amount of leg work to get your own answers. There is a lot you will miss out on if you just ask questions that have already been discussed. If you want to be spoon fed and not read a ton of anything you will never understand things and be doomed to asking lazy questions like this.


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## MatanuskaValley (Mar 30, 2010)

voodoofx said:


> Here is a pic of my sorta attempt at Uncle Ben's technique. A bit different.


here is mine, worked as advertised.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 30, 2010)

MatanuskaValley said:


> here is mine, worked as advertised.


Nice job!

Keep 'em green,
UB


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## feva (Mar 30, 2010)

yo uncle ben just wanted to say thx for all your knowledge you have shared. ive learned alot. not just this thread either you are a master at your craft. once again this noob thanks you. peace


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 30, 2010)

feva said:


> yo uncle ben just wanted to say thx for all your knowledge you have shared. ive learned alot. not just this thread either you are a master at your craft. once again this noob thanks you. peace


Appreciate the kind words. I hope to empower you to be able to make your own sound cultural decisions.

Grow hard,
UB


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## weedmang (Mar 31, 2010)

thx uncle B i love this technique the pics and explanations are great i do it to all my plants and clone the tops for sexing great thread keep them tips coming


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 31, 2010)

weedmang said:


> thx uncle B i love this technique the pics and explanations are great i do it to all my plants and clone the tops for sexing great thread keep them tips coming


Happy it works for you. It's not a silver bullet, just another technique of managing your garden. 

UB


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## KlosetKing (Mar 31, 2010)

Hey, first time grow AND first post, thought id drop a line and say thanks for all the useful info UB (and everyone else whos chimed in) ive been browsin the site for a while now, and have learned many things, but topping for a few more colas, has to be one of the better tips ive read recently. iam dealing with a very small space (a closet thats 2ft deep, 5 feet wide, and about 6ft tall), 6x54watt T5 fluoros for a total output of about 25k lumens, and only intend on growing 2 or 3 plants at a time. yield vs space has been my primary concern (this whole project is designed for me to cut out dealers, save some money, and live off of my own supply) and i think it might help my eventual goal of having 2-3 ounces a month usable without huge dry periods in between harvest.

dunno why i went into depth about that part, probably just to show how useful your tips have been! thanks again, and happy growin UB!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 31, 2010)

KlosetKing said:


> Hey, first time grow AND first post, thought id drop a line and say thanks for all the useful info UB (and everyone else whos chimed in) ive been browsin the site for a while now, and have learned many things, but topping for a few more colas, has to be one of the better tips ive read recently. iam dealing with a very small space (a closet thats 2ft deep, 5 feet wide, and about 6ft tall), 6x54watt T5 fluoros for a total output of about 25k lumens, and only intend on growing 2 or 3 plants at a time. yield vs space has been my primary concern (this whole project is designed for me to cut out dealers, save some money, and live off of my own supply) and i think it might help my eventual goal of having 2-3 ounces a month usable without huge dry periods in between harvest.
> 
> dunno why i went into depth about that part, probably just to show how useful your tips have been! thanks again, and happy growin UB!


Welcome to RIU and the thread! Plan your garden and grow your plan.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 1, 2010)

Cotyledons don't have petioles nor are there any dormant buds located at their junction (I don't think). I'll get off dead center and stick some seeds into some dirt and do the experiment I said I was gonna do - start 4 seedlings, let them grow a bit, top 2 above the cotyledons and top the other 2 above the 2nd node. I did this once before but forgot the results. I'm 99% sure nothing happened above the cotyledons. We'll see.

You can play games with auxins all you want, this one is just easiest for me as I don't have the patience to deal with the maintenance of LST or SCROG. All of these training drills is a matter of redistributing auxins. Auxins are hormones that direct cell division and elongation in the terminal leader (apical dominance) while inducing some degree of dormancy in the lateral branches.

I don't think I ever posted these before, but this is an oldie (page one of the 4 Main Cola topping thread) that clearly shows the cotyledons, 1st and 2nd node topped for 4 main colas.
*
top view:*







*side view:*







Hope this finally ends the confusion.

Tio


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## Charmwah (Apr 1, 2010)

Hey UB, i've got a question for you.....

I've read the thread from start to page 62 and i'm losing the will to live with people asking the same questions over and over again. Can you reccomend a form of sustenance to get me through the next 100+ pages or does it get any better from here on out 

For what its worth i'm throwing +Rep at you and B2KSpam for pure patience and perseverence. 

P.S do you regret making the post in the first place yet


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 1, 2010)

Charmwah said:


> Hey UB, i've got a question for you.....
> 
> I've read the thread from start to page 62 and *i'm losing the will to live with people asking the same questions over and over again*. Can you reccomend a form of sustenance to get me through the next 100+ pages or does it get any better from here on out


You're losing the will! Hah! I've tried with emails to senior mods to forward this message to RIU. For some fucked up reason, RIU locks out the thread starter from editing his own thread. No other forum, cannabis or otherwise, does this.

I would have a FAQ on page one to answer the same ol same ol lame questions if given the editing feature. 

IOW, take it up with RIU, not me.

UB


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## Danielsgb (Apr 1, 2010)

UB, I'm gonna try this on my 2 fastest growing plants. I fed them a N watering (25% Fish emulsion strength) before bed yesterday. By today they are taking off. Is it best to do before the lights go out, or first thing in the morning? I clip under the white wire right? (riddleme answered it for me) I'm thinking one more day to let the feeding take effect more. Or is it better to do before it kicks the new growth out? Thanks again UB 
Mainly just wondering if you think I should wait a bit.


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 1, 2010)

Daniel, you should be more worried about the poor health of your plants, instead of topping them.


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## plaguedog (Apr 2, 2010)

I just want to say thanks also, this technique worked great for me on my last grow.


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## Charmwah (Apr 2, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> You're losing the will! Hah! I've tried with emails to senior mods to forward this message to RIU. For some fucked up reason, RIU locks out the thread starter from editing his own thread. No other forum, cannabis or otherwise, does this.
> 
> I would have a FAQ on page one to answer the same ol same ol lame questions if given the editing feature.
> 
> ...


I've managed to get to page 105, and its apparent that theres a lot of people trying their hand at horticulture for the first time with weed, without any prior knowledge of botany, or even the common sense to read up a little first. Nobody even seems to want to check a dictionary for the term 'node'. If ever there was a need for creators to edit a thread its this one.

Now every piece of information you've given thus far makes perfect sense to me, even tho i'm a relative noob growing mary. I like to think that growing my own herbs & veg for the last 15 years has given me a little heads start mind  That said, I hope all the people starting their gardening with weed go on to find growing tomatoes, peppers & spuds etc just as enjoyable...


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## riddleme (Apr 2, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Daniel, you should be more worried about the poor health of your plants, instead of topping them.


Hey Dave
Those are clones he has been nursing, I've been following his grow


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 2, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Daniel, you should be more worried about the poor health of your plants, instead of topping them.


I agree, clones or not, now is not the time to remove any foliage. Green 'em up, get the vigor going and then worry about training.



plaguedog said:


> I just want to say thanks also, this technique worked great for me on my last grow.


Great! Thanks for writing, (you and everyone else.)



Charmwah said:


> I've managed to get to page 105, and its apparent that theres a lot of people trying their hand at horticulture for the first time with weed, without any prior knowledge of botany, or even the common sense to read up a little first.


Yep. Enter cannabis specific products, charts, labels, claims and all. It's easy pikin' hehe.



> Nobody even seems to want to check a dictionary for the term 'node'. If ever there was a need for creators to edit a thread its this one.


I hear dat.



> Now every piece of information you've given thus far makes perfect sense to me, even tho i'm a relative noob growing mary.* I like to think that growing my own herbs & veg for the last 15 years has given me a little heads start mind  *That said, I hope all the people starting their gardening with weed go on to find growing tomatoes, peppers & spuds etc just as enjoyable...


You're light years ahead of most folks as plant culture knowledge is transferable across most plants. 

OK fellers, sowed dem seeds this morn, 4 Styro-cups. Will see how this plays out regarding their health (pythium anyone?) as I gave them the same unsterilized crap I used to do other stuff in one gallon pots. I mean this mix is the pits, hell, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, hah.  I literally dumped bags of CHEAP topsoil, shovel loads of partially composted horse manure that's been sitting out in a pile, caliche from a pile in the field to offset the acidity of peat, etc. into my tractor's bucket and mixed with a dirty shovel. Only organic nutritional value is from the compost and the peat. Top of pots were dressed with Polyon, a 12 month slow release 18-4-8 pellet with micros. 

Genetics should be excellent - potent, dense, stocky plants. It is one of my crosses - C99 X (C99 X Peak19), the latter being that bomb in the Spin-out thread. Probably shouldn't have used them as I doubt if I'll grow them to maturity. This is just an experiment for you guys.

Happy Frieday,
Tio


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 2, 2010)

Looking forward to your little experiment UB. Its a shame you wont be growing them out. Alot of people would enjoy seeing you do a grow journal. Plus you'd be able to shut up some of the nay'sayers out there. If not, you can just send me clones and Ill finish it for you hehe


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## lightbox (Apr 2, 2010)

i'm not sure if this has been asked already, but have you tried any of these methods with auto-flowering strains?


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## monkeeboi69 (Apr 2, 2010)

hey bro this is exactly what i was looking for or who i was looking for. i got a question, i got 10 nodes going on... is it to late to try and pull something like this off? i can post pix if you like.(if that helps) 
i apologize if anybody has asked this already. 

i forgot to add that its indoor and its under a 150 watt hps 5 gallon pot i believe and its pretty tall...


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 2, 2010)

monkeeboi69 said:


> hey bro this is exactly what i was looking for or who i was looking for. i got a question, i got 10 nodes going on... is it to late to try and pull something like this off? i can post pix if you like.(if that helps)
> i apologize if anybody has asked this already.
> 
> i forgot to add that its indoor and its under a 150 watt hps 5 gallon pot i believe and its pretty tall...


You can top near the top and you'll get a bushier plant, but you wont end up with 4 main tops. Id also hate to chop back down after letting the plant get to ten nodes. Id just flower it as is, and on your next grow you can try topping.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 2, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Looking forward to your little experiment UB. Its a shame you wont be growing them out. Alot of people would enjoy seeing you do a grow journal. Plus you'd be able to shut up some of the nay'sayers out there. If not, you can just send me clones and Ill finish it for you hehe


No one knows what tomorrow brings. I'm sure as hell not gonna do a grow journal to appease anyone but me. 

Now, being that I got flamed at PG on my last outdoor grow while being praised for it at TCC only to be later banned at TCC for not buying into the organic hysteria, shabby local politics and AN co-dependents..... this after doing grow journals at OG, CW, and PG all of which went down in flames.......why in the hell would I care what any FUD mongers think?

I'll just sit here sippin' my tequila and lime, blowin' a J now and then listening to Rosie Flores' song, Boxcars.

UB


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## jjfoo (Apr 2, 2010)

monkeeboi69 said:


> hey bro this is exactly what i was looking for or who i was looking for. i got a question, i got 10 nodes going on... is it to late to try and pull something like this off?


I would top it really low. if you want large colas and a sturdy plant. This is how I do mine. I like to veg them a long time...


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## ultimate buds (Apr 2, 2010)

just thought id add this pic as i found it usefull hope it helps someone


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## blackoctopussy (Apr 3, 2010)

Hi UB, you mention Mel and Ed's 1982 edition as a good start for acquiring knowledge. They talk about some growers who have put screws or nails in the stem/trunk but they don't talk about results. I also found a thread on a french forum where a guy does the same in the last 10 to 20 days before harvest, saying it increases total yield by approx 20%. Have you ever tried it, heard of it ? What's your advice on this technique 

Many thanx in advance,


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 3, 2010)

blackoctopussy said:


> Hi UB, you mention Mel and Ed's 1982 edition as a good start for acquiring knowledge. They talk about some growers who have put screws or nails in the stem/trunk but they don't talk about results. I also found a thread on a french forum where a guy does the same in the last 10 to 20 days before harvest, saying it increases total yield by approx 20%. Have you ever tried it, heard of it ? What's your advice on this technique
> 
> Many thanx in advance,


Don't know, is the drill trying to provide more Fe? It's a gimmick.


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## blackoctopussy (Apr 3, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Don't know, is the drill trying to provide more Fe? It's a gimmick.


 just another stress technique, from what I read the plant thinks it's going to die and sends it's last ressources to bud production. Have a link if you're interested in pics. Thanks UB


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## potpimp (Apr 4, 2010)

Plants _think_? That's a new one, LOL.


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## blackoctopussy (Apr 4, 2010)

potpimp said:


> Plants _think_? That's a new one, LOL.


 I knew this one would come up, just telling you what I read  Who knows maybe they have ESP capabilities


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## blackoctopussy (Apr 4, 2010)




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## Thrasher645 (Apr 4, 2010)

Blacks right, its a stress technique, but it does work. I have friends say that there colas have gotten bigger and thicker from doing it. Most times the colas just get real dense but all around its a great technique.


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## potpimp (Apr 4, 2010)

blackoctopussy said:


> I knew this one would come up, just telling you what I read  Who knows maybe they have ESP capabilities


I couldn't resist that shot Black, LOL. I know that these plants do respond well to certain types of stress; they are amazing plants.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 4, 2010)

blackoctopussy said:


> just another stress technique, from what I read the plant thinks it's going to die and sends it's last ressources to bud production. Have a link if you're interested in pics. Thanks UB


I'd only be interested if it came from a university.

You want big buds, high yields? Then grow a very healthy plant that retains alot of leaves until harvest and leave the nails with the carpenters. 

Thanks,
UB


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## jjfoo (Apr 4, 2010)

potpimp said:


> Plants _think_? That's a new one, LOL.


Maybe you should think of think as 'respond'. As in respond to stress in a way that best gives it a chance to reproduce.

People ask if evolution has a intelligence. I say no, things are just simply falling into their place as dictated by the laws of physics.

Plants may not think like you do nor do they communicate like you do, but they do communicate and have signaling mechanisms.

I don't think this should surprise you.


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## jjfoo (Apr 4, 2010)

Thrasher645 said:


> Blacks right, its a stress technique, but it does work. I have friends say that there colas have gotten bigger and thicker from doing it. Most times the colas just get real dense but all around its a great technique.


Why do you believe this? Did you friend do a controlled experiment or just stick a nail in a plant that may or may not have been going to do better and say the nail caused it to yield more. 

Just cause you can correlate something doesn't show causation. He may have changed something else that caused this. Scientists need to have a controlled environment which can be very difficult to do.

By people believing what others tell them with out having any references to how the info was obtained we live in a world full of believers. This is how wars get started.

Maybe I'm too harsh and need to mellow out but I really hate belief systems. They usually lead to people who are really mislead.


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## Thrasher645 (Apr 4, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> Why do you believe this? Did you friend do a controlled experiment or just stick a nail in a plant that may or may not have been going to do better and say the nail caused it to yield more.
> 
> Just cause you can correlate something doesn't show causation. He may have changed something else that caused this. Scientists need to have a controlled environment which can be very difficult to do.
> 
> ...


Yea I think you do need to mello out were just talking about marijuana. Alot of well known people on this site use this technique including my friends when they grow, its just one of many techniques you can use while growing to make your plants a lil better. 
You dont stick nails in the plant. You put thumbtacks in the main stem and branches (if the branches are thick enough) during the last few weeks of harvest. It sends stress signals to the Buds. You can pick up any growing book and itll tell ya stuff like that.


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## Boyz N Da Hood (Apr 5, 2010)

hey UB, wow i'm glad i came across this thread it has sooooo much good info 2 offer only thing its just really LOOONG lol i read til like page 52 but it was 2 much 4 one day lol i understood it for the most part i just have a question though and i apologize if it has already been answered.. can you use this technique on clones or do they have to be from seedlings? i had read somewhere here that if you do it to clones with alternating node that alternating nodes count as 1/2 of opposing nodes and that they wont have the same uniformity.


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 5, 2010)

Boyz N Da Hood said:


> hey UB, wow i'm glad i came across this thread it has sooooo much good info 2 offer only thing its just really LOOONG lol i read til like page 52 but it was 2 much 4 one day lol i understood it for the most part i just have a question though and i apologize if it has already been answered.. can you use this technique on clones or do they have to be from seedlings? i had read somewhere here that if you do it to clones with alternating node that alternating nodes count as 1/2 of opposing nodes and that they wont have the same uniformity.


Yes you can use it on clones, but like you said it wont be as uniform as from seed.


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## Boyz N Da Hood (Apr 5, 2010)

oh thanks man.. with it not being uniformed would it affect yield?? and is there a way to get the clones 2 revert back to opposing nodes?


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## johnnyredbook (Apr 5, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Welcome to RIU and the thread! Plan your garden and grow your plan.


Thanks for sharing your secrets with all us. For some reason I am having a hard time understanding the hormone response thing. So you're saying once the plant is around 5-6 nodes (I'm growing from a clone), I would cut above the 2nd true node? I think I am having a hard time finding the 2nd node. What if the nodes on my plant was alternating? Because in your picture you cut right above what seems like the 1st node. Do you count it as 2 node when the nodes are directly next to each other (one on the left is one and one on the right is two)? Thanks for any input you can provide.


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## plaguedog (Apr 5, 2010)

johnnyredbook said:


> Thanks for sharing your secrets with all us. For some reason I am having a hard time understanding the hormone response thing. So you're saying once the plant is around 5-6 nodes (I'm growing from a clone), I would cut above the 2nd true node? I think I am having a hard time finding the 2nd node. What if the nodes on my plant was alternating? Because in your picture you cut right above what seems like the 1st node. Do you count it as 2 node when the nodes are directly next to each other (one on the left is one and one on the right is two)? Thanks for any input you can provide.



If the clone has already matured into the final stages of growth (i.e. alternating branch nodes)This technique will not be as uniform in growth I believe.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 5, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> Why do you believe this? Did you friend do a controlled experiment or just stick a nail in a plant that may or may not have been going to do better and say the nail caused it to yield more.
> _*
> Just cause you can correlate something doesn't show causation. He may have changed something else that caused this. *_Scientists need to have a controlled environment which can be very difficult to do.
> 
> By people believing what others tell them with out having any references to how the info was obtained we live in a world full of believers.


Excellent points. Folks are quick to establish a quick cause/effect relationship because they have a need to believe. The worst abusers of this common human behaviorial element is those trying various snake oils. Goes something like this - "I tried Oma's Golden Showers Tonic and it doubled the bud size!" .....while forgetting to add in that he changed up his lights, tweaked his garden, learned from previous mistakes, never had or runs a control group, is stretching the truth (sees what he expects or wants to see), etc.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 5, 2010)

All right, back on topic. 



ultimate buds said:


> just thought id add this pic as i found it usefull hope it helps someone


Yeah, I posted in that thread. If you notice the FIM cutting point, it basically is nothing more than topping above the 3rd node. I've always thought that was funny.

Back in the old days, OG, the "pros" would define the cutting point for *F*uck *I M*issed as going right thru the node. I assume because they felt, unknowingly or not, that there was alot of dormant buds residing *in* the nodal tissue. 

Someone should take about 10 seedlings, top 1/2 per the FIM diagram and cut 1/2 right thru the middle of a node, say the 2nd or 3rd one. Would be an interesting experiment, post to the Advanced forum.







UB


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## rupert pupkin (Apr 6, 2010)

hey UB, if you had to have a bunch of mother plants for clones would you top or not?


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## SIRE (Apr 6, 2010)

whats going on uncle ben. i did exactly the topping method u prescribed it worked! duh.... huh? everythings lookin good. got a question do u have techniques on drying and curing?


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 6, 2010)

rupert pupkin said:


> hey UB, if you had to have a bunch of mother plants for clones would you top or not?


You use whatever means will get you the most material for cuttings.



SIRE said:


> whats going on uncle ben. i did exactly the topping method u prescribed it worked! duh.... huh? everythings lookin good. got a question do u have techniques on drying and curing?


Just hang dem sons-a-bitches up to dry......

Sorry, I aint into the romance and silly drills normally associated with curing.

Bueno bye


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 6, 2010)

Sire, here is a link that will help you with curing. Its definitely helped me with curing, and my 3 week old WW smells amazing.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=156237


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 7, 2010)

3 babes up out of 4 sowed. They get full sun today if it isn't too windy. We have a cold front moving in.


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## ericksonvu (Apr 7, 2010)

YEah, Woomiester is right. But if you have a really big plant, you might want to harvest your cola nugs first and then wait a week while the others catch up w/ the added sunlight. Harvest based on trichromes, not hairs.


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## zigzag6 (Apr 7, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> At? Is that below or above? The exact point is important reason why I spent a bit of time explaining the hormonal response thingie. If you topped above the 4th node, you'll get a bushy plant with the last output to occur at the lowest node, if at all. You will not get 2 or 4 main colas.
> 
> UB


If u cut THE 5th node i will get a bushy plant ?


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## lightbox (Apr 7, 2010)

Any update on if this works with auto-flowering strains? i just started my second grow and wanted to give it a try. Thanks!


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## zigzag6 (Apr 7, 2010)

Im looking to get a lot of horizontal grow , what should i do ?

somthing like a bush


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## Thrasher645 (Apr 7, 2010)

zigzag6 said:


> Im looking to get a lot of horizontal grow , what should i do ?
> 
> somthing like a bush


you can bend the main stem and tie it off so it grows sideways. I did that and got alot more yield than I would have if I left it growing vertically.


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## mtblackdog (Apr 7, 2010)

Not to seem like a Dumass but I am a topping newbie, are talking cutting the second or fourth true node from the top right?


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 7, 2010)

mtblackdog said:


> Not to seem like a Dumass but I am a topping newbie, are talking cutting the second or fourth true node from the top right?


How on earth did you get 4 nodes? Thats a first around here. Read the first few pages, then read the last couple of pages, and all of your questions should be answered. Ill give you one hint though. You count from the bottom up. It sounds like you have it in reverse.


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## BrokeFYC (Apr 8, 2010)

What happens to the part of the plant that you actually cut? does it continue to grow as a 3rd-5th main cola, or does it recede back and meet the "2 main colas"?


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## scottyboy369 (Apr 8, 2010)

uncle Ben your my favorite UNCLE


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## Boyz N Da Hood (Apr 8, 2010)

scottyboy369 said:


> uncle Ben your my favorite UNCLE


lol i second dat


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## zigzag6 (Apr 9, 2010)

I topped my plant , put didnt leave a part of the stem is this bad ?


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## Waiakeauka (Apr 11, 2010)

Can your plant get rot from fimming outdoors where humidity averages about 85% and rains daily?


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## Danielsgb (Apr 11, 2010)

Riddleme has a post (#36) explaining damping off that might help. It's on Calling All Noob Growers
Daniels


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## SIRE (Apr 11, 2010)

thanx my friend im checking it out now


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## SIRE (Apr 11, 2010)

i understand that well lemme ask this have anyone heard of a seed with two tap roots then developing into two (i guess twins) plants? and the second question is cocerning lights: is it better to use red and blue lights in vegg. or just blue? also are hps lights or mh lights better for flowering?


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## Danielsgb (Apr 11, 2010)

Not to be a smartass, but a bit further back he has a great post explaining plant light use. Start at the beginning of his and you'll know what they need. Gook Luck.


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## glassblower209 (Apr 11, 2010)

I agree with you but most srtains have their general flowering time. It can obviously rang depending on care but if so it will only fluxuate maby a week


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## GrowerInTraining (Apr 11, 2010)

glassblower209 said:


> I agree with you but most srtains have their general flowering time. It can obviously rang depending on care but if so it will only fluxuate maby a week



I have 2 true nodes on my plants but am waiting for them to grow taller still as they only have 4 nodes total and are about to get 5. 

I have a question though. We are doing outdoors and because of time constraints will be forcing it to flower around week 9. It is currently about to be week 3(Tuesday) and I still haven't topped them yet. 

My question is: will these have enough time to grow into large main colas with only 6 more weeks of Veg or should I try another method since I only have 6 weeks left.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 11, 2010)

Waiakeauka said:


> Can your plant get rot from fimming outdoors where humidity averages about 85% and rains daily?


Aloha, not if it's healthy.



GrowerInTraining said:


> I have 2 true nodes on my plants but am waiting for them to grow taller still as they only have 4 nodes total and are about to get 5.
> 
> I have a question though. We are doing outdoors and because of time constraints will be forcing it to flower around week 9. It is currently about to be week 3(Tuesday) and I still haven't topped them yet.
> 
> My question is: will these have enough time to grow into large main colas with only 6 more weeks of Veg or should I try another method since I only have 6 weeks left.


You must be in Australia. For me 6 weeks would be more than enough time after topping. I assume you mean producing some good leaf mass?


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## BigBug (Apr 11, 2010)

When is the best time to top a plant how far along?? also im having trubble seeing where to top at unless mabey my plants are just not ready or to far along...


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## Waiakeauka (Apr 11, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Aloha, not if it's healthy.


Aloha UB and mahalo for the answer. I will try to fim a few from my outdoor grow this season.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 12, 2010)

Waiakeauka said:


> Aloha UB and mahalo for the answer. I will try to fim a few from my outdoor grow this season.


FIM, topping, it's all the same to me. Curious, what are you growing and where? I know the islands pretty well.

Alright fellers, _NO MORE PM's_ asking me "where do I top?" If you don't get a reply from me, you know why. Got it?  

I got 4 main colas on a plant grown outdoors a few years ago. It was subjected to alot of rain, trunk split in half by storm, and received ONLY high N food the entire time, a 18-5-8 with micros.

*Newly topped, autoflowering SATIVA seedling:*







*Overhead of seedling:*







*Just upcanned, overhead shot:*







*2 of 4 colas falling over under their own weight. Notice the width at the base of the colas:*







*4 main colas drying (secondary stuff hung in a closet to dry):*


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 12, 2010)

*Rootball*, no spin-out because of Griffin's treated pot, Duck tape used to hold colas together after being split by a storm. HUGE crack dead center down the trunk. Could not believe this plant made it, thought it would surely succomb to rot as water collected in the core of the trunk. 







*Secondary branches aside from main colas:

*


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## IAm5toned (Apr 12, 2010)

now thats remarkable.... what strain?


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 12, 2010)

IAm5toned said:


> now thats remarkable.... what strain?


That was a cross I did between a Positronics Haze and Sensi Skunk. The phenotype was pure sativa, reason for the airy look, and the Dronkers obviously thru in a little rudy in their Skunk because it autoflowered on the 5th node during the longest days of the year. That was a big plant, about 5' tall if raised up by hand. I shudder to think what it would have done if it had gone to say.....12 nodes before flowering! I'm glad it didn't because as it were it got pretty unmanageable.


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 12, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> That was a cross I did between a Positronics Haze and Sensi Skunk. The phenotype was pure sativa, reason for the airy look, and the Dronkers obviously thru in a little rudy in their Skunk because it autoflowered on the 5th node during the longest days of the year. That was a big plant, about 5' tall if raised up by hand. I shudder to think what it would have done if it had gone to say.....12 nodes before flowering! I'm glad it didn't because as it were it got pretty unmanageable.


Ive got some O.Haze X Skunk #1 from Sam the Skunkman going atm. I sure wish I could get some colas that big on my ladies. Too bad I can only grow them indoors. How many weeks did that plant take to flower?


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 12, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Ive got some O.Haze X Skunk #1 from Sam the Skunkman going atm. I sure wish I could get some colas that big on my ladies. Too bad I can only grow them indoors. How many weeks did that plant take to flower?


Great, good luck with that! I'd love to see them.

It started flowering in May and I harvested Sept. 1.


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## wadd (Apr 12, 2010)

uncle ben do you always grow in soil and indoorss or outdoors whats your feeling on aeroponic it looks like a lot of fiddling with solutions nutrients and ph worries which do you think is easier


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## GrowerInTraining (Apr 12, 2010)

UB,

Thanks for all your info.

Nope not in AussieLand. Southern US, but due to my lease on my house at school, we will be moving out July 31. We started germinating March 15 and they all sprouted, and are all doing fine. 

I was simply wondering if the plant would have enough time to fully recover, and catch up growth wise. What I'm wondering is, if I attempt to get 4 colas, with only 6 weeks of Veg left, is it even worth it? Or will the plant be small and bushy in 6 weeks?

Thanks in advance


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## GrowerInTraining (Apr 12, 2010)

GrowerInTraining said:


> UB,
> 
> Thanks for all your info.
> 
> ...



Also, off topic I know, but what would be the best way to force them to flower outside even though the days will still be long.

We we're thinking of just using a large black trashbag with ventilation holes to cover it up a few hours a day. Would that work?


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 12, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Great, good luck with that! I'd love to see them.
> 
> It started flowering in May and I harvested Sept. 1.


4 months flowering doesn't sound too bad. Hopefully they dont grow out of control on me. Thankfully Ive got a much larger tent to work with(32 sq. ft). 

I noticed on most of them the first set of leaves are 3 bladed instead of the single bladed ones. Ive never had this happen before, but Ive only grown 15 plants to harvest. Do you know if this is something common to O. Haze?


----------



## reggie stirred (Apr 12, 2010)

Hey Unc, I just transplanted some 4 cola'd girls ( thanks for the tip) from 2 to 5 gal containers last night. How long do you recommend I wait before flipping to 12/12. I'm shooting for 7 days. You think that will be long enough for roots to stretch through the new soil?


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 12, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> 4 months flowering doesn't sound too bad. Hopefully they dont grow out of control on me. Thankfully Ive got a much larger tent to work with(32 sq. ft).
> 
> I noticed on most of them the first set of leaves are 3 bladed instead of the single bladed ones. Ive never had this happen before, but Ive only grown 15 plants to harvest. Do you know if this is something common to O. Haze?


I would think 7 leaves per leafset is about right. Good luck with that tent and expecting O. Haze to work.



GrowerInTraining said:


> Also, off topic I know, but what would be the best way to force them to flower outside even though the days will still be long.
> 
> We we're thinking of just using a large black trashbag with ventilation holes to cover it up a few hours a day. Would that work?


Bag a branch for 10 days.



reggie stirred said:


> Hey Unc, I just transplanted some 4 cola'd girls ( thanks for the tip) from 2 to 5 gal containers last night. How long do you recommend I wait before flipping to 12/12. I'm shooting for 7 days. You think that will be long enough for roots to stretch through the new soil?


Beats the hell outta me. This is your call based on the plant's vigor.


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## GrowerInTraining (Apr 12, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> I would think 7 leaves per leafset is about right. Good luck with that tent and expecting O. Haze to work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Should it not be kept on a 12/12 cycle with the help of a bag? Or will it just start to flower after 10 days of a forced 12/12? 

Or do you mean bag it for a whole 10 days?

Sorry for being a pest. First grow and everything has been a breeze so far with everyone's help on this board in all these threads. Just don't want to mess it up. My babies are looking beautiful.


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## riddleme (Apr 12, 2010)

GrowerInTraining said:


> Should it not be kept on a 12/12 cycle with the help of a bag? Or will it just start to flower after 10 days of a forced 12/12?
> 
> Or do you mean bag it for a whole 10 days?
> 
> Sorry for being a pest. First grow and everything has been a breeze so far with everyone's help on this board in all these threads. Just don't want to mess it up. My babies are looking beautiful.


He is telling you to bag a branch and see what happens for yourself (best way to learn)

Black draws heat from the sun so will pretty much bake that branch but try it and report back


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## GrowerInTraining (Apr 12, 2010)

riddleme said:


> He is telling you to bag a branch and see what happens for yourself (best way to learn)
> 
> Black draws heat from the sun so will pretty much bake that branch but try it and report back


Ah. Gotcha. From what I can catch onto, I'd rather not cook a branch in the sun. Is there a preferred material to use to black out for forced flowering?


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## jds8356 (Apr 12, 2010)

tobacco should be cured not grass...


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## reggie stirred (Apr 13, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Beats the hell outta me. This is your call based on the plant's vigor.


well, I already tossed the runts of the litter. 2 out of the three I have left are thriving. The third is a damn beast. I'm sure they'll be fine whether I flip em tomorrow or next month, so let me rephrase the question. 

According to your experience over the years, after transplanting healthy, vigorous plants to larger containers, does it make a shit bit of difference whether you flower right away or wait for the roots to grow into their new larger space? They're 24" , 26" and 34" tall , bushy as all hell and I'll already have to tie them down all over the place once the stretch starts. Damn, I probably just answered my own question, huh...... Uh.....Sometimes I just need to think out loud a little, so thanks for the reminder. Phuck it, maybe I'll just start flowering tomorrow. What's the worst that could happen?


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## snew (Apr 13, 2010)

GrowerInTraining said:


> Also, off topic I know, but what would be the best way to force them to flower outside even though the days will still be long.
> 
> We we're thinking of just using a large black trashbag with ventilation holes to cover it up a few hours a day. Would that work?


If you put a black bag on a plant directly in the Florida evening sun you'll cook the girl. You may get by with covering in the morning, but it doesn't take long for the sun there to become intense. Notice all the nurseries are shaded for the most part.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 13, 2010)

reggie stirred said:


> According to your experience over the years, after transplanting healthy, vigorous plants to larger containers, does it make a shit bit of difference whether you flower right away or wait for the roots to grow into their new larger space?


OK, you seem to need someone to tell you what to do. Upcan, wait a week and then flower. How's that? 



snew said:


> If you put a black bag on a plant directly in the Florida evening sun you'll cook the girl. You may get by with covering in the morning, but it doesn't take long for the sun there to become intense. Notice all the nurseries are shaded for the most part.


Black is beautiful, but not in the sun. Opaque mah man, opaque. 

UB


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## reggie stirred (Apr 13, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> OK, you seem to need someone to tell you what to do. Upcan, wait a week and then flower. How's that?
> 
> UB


lmao..... Nah, your first response made total sense. I was no longer asking "What should I do?" It was more like "As far as you know, does it make any difference?" Now it's more along the lines of "Do you give a damn?"


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## NuBud335 (Apr 13, 2010)

Your tutorial would make perfect sense if A. I knew what nodes were B. I knew what perfect nodes were, and C if i knew any other the other 1337 6r0x3rz terms you pro's use. I know, i should be in the n00b forum but someone directed me here for pruning/topping methods.


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 13, 2010)

NuBud335 said:


> Your tutorial would make perfect sense if A. I knew what nodes were B. I knew what perfect nodes were, and C if i knew any other the other 1337 6r0x3rz terms you pro's use. I know, i should be in the n00b forum but someone directed me here for pruning/topping methods.


If you dont know what a node is then use google. I had to do the same thing when I first read this thread. 

UB never uses the term perfect node. I think you mean true node, and he perfectly explains what it is on the first page.

If you still can't figure out where to cut then go through the last 5 pages or so looking for pictures. Im sure you'll find one or two that shows exactly where to cut.


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## NuBud335 (Apr 13, 2010)

Thanks, I kind of skipped around the 205 pages of this thread, i could have easily missed key information.


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 13, 2010)

NuBud335 said:


> Thanks, I kind of skipped around the 205 pages of this thread, i could have easily missed key information.


This should clear up any confusion you may have.

https://www.rollitup.org/3980560-post1966.html


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 13, 2010)

Shit, if you don't know what a node is, what in the hell are you doing growing pot? Ever heard of a root? No? How about a leaf? It's the part you're supposed to remove to make bigger buds.


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## rzza (Apr 13, 2010)

uncle ben please help me understand the definition of TRUE NODE. im under the impression that true node means the first leafset with 3 or 5 fingers. also what is the leaf called thats above the cotyledons? it grows big branches but i dont believe its the first true node. attached is a pic of a w widow that i pinched a week ago. please take a look and tell me which true node i cut above? i believe its the second true node.


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 13, 2010)

rzza said:


> uncle ben please help me understand the definition of TRUE NODE. im under the impression that true node means the first leafset with 3 or 5 fingers. also what is the leaf called thats above the cotyledons? it grows big branches but i dont believe its the first true node. attached is a pic of a w widow that i pinched a week ago. please take a look and tell me which true node i cut above? i believe its the second true node.


Jesus Christ Rzza. How about you read three posts above mine, and then click on the link in my post. 

From your picture, it would appear you topped above the third true node.


----------



## rzza (Apr 13, 2010)

i think im confused because the branches on the bottom node with the single fingered leaf is so uniform with the other branches, it appears its gonna have 6 perfectly uniformed colas. 

you should know, im hard of comprehending what i read and i truely read your op at least 8 or 9 times before i started my topping. 

i also read blazes fimming thread and tried that on a few brANCHES and i agree with you, its unreliable, inconsistant and sloppy.


----------



## rzza (Apr 13, 2010)

and before you tell me to read before posting, i spent about 3 hours on this thread a week ago.


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## fdd2blk (Apr 13, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Why should I be friendly when you cant find the answers you seek, when its staring you right in the face. We get this same question every day in here because people are either too stupid or too lazy to read. You should be happy someone even replied. UB would have just ignored your question because its been asked one million times already in this thread.
> 
> If you only had a few posts, I may have been more cordial with you, but there is no excuse for someone with over 500 posts. If you dont like how I replied then feel free to take the info learned and leave the thread.



if you CHOSE to try to help, please do it in a friendly manner. thanks.


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## rzza (Apr 14, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Cotyledons don't have petioles nor are there any dormant buds located at their junction (I don't think). I'll get off dead center and stick some seeds into some dirt and do the experiment I said I was gonna do - start 4 seedlings, let them grow a bit, top 2 above the cotyledons and top the other 2 above the 2nd node. I did this once before but forgot the results. I'm 99% sure nothing happened above the cotyledons. We'll see.
> 
> You can play games with auxins all you want, this one is just easiest for me as I don't have the patience to deal with the maintenance of LST or SCROG. All of these training drills is a matter of redistributing auxins. Auxins are hormones that direct cell division and elongation in the terminal leader (apical dominance) while inducing some degree of dormancy in the lateral branches.
> 
> ...


 listen i know this is gonna frustrate people but im still confused, this picture on top shows cotys then two true nodes. my plants all have cotys then a node where the leaves are single fingered just like a coty.


----------



## fdd2blk (Apr 14, 2010)

rzza said:


> listen i know this is gonna frustrate people but im still confused, this picture on top shows cotys then two true nodes. my plants all have cotys then a node where the leaves are single fingered just like a coty.


what is your question?


----------



## rzza (Apr 14, 2010)

how come the first node on my plants dont have a regular 3 fingered leaf? they are single fingered, and they have cotyledons also.


----------



## fdd2blk (Apr 14, 2010)

rzza said:


> how come the first node on my plants dont have a regular 3 fingered leaf? they are single fingered, and they have cotyledons also.


because that's how they grew. it's nature it happens. mine often do the same thing. nothing unusual or to worry over.


----------



## rzza (Apr 14, 2010)

ok well thanks. so do i concider them the FIRST TRUE NODE with dormant buds?


----------



## fdd2blk (Apr 14, 2010)

rzza said:


> ok well thanks. so do i concider them the FIRST TRUE NODE with dormant buds?


i don't really know what you are going on about "the first true nodes". and what are "dormant buds"?


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## rzza (Apr 14, 2010)

fuck it, im just trippin cuz i topped with the intention of getting four or more colas and apparently i fucked it up. no biggie their thriving, im still happy. 


thanks again.


----------



## fdd2blk (Apr 14, 2010)

rzza said:


> fuck it, im just trippin cuz i topped with the intention of getting four or more colas and apparently i fucked it up. no biggie their thriving, im still happy.
> 
> 
> thanks again.


do you have 4 side branches forming? if those are your pics above, they look fine.


----------



## rzza (Apr 14, 2010)

fdd2blk said:


> do you have 4 side branches forming? if those are your pics above, they look fine.


 no this is the pic


----------



## fdd2blk (Apr 14, 2010)

rzza said:


> no this is the pic


i see 6 side branches.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Apr 14, 2010)

rzza said:


> how come the first node on my plants dont have a regular 3 fingered leaf? they are single fingered, and they have cotyledons also.


Your assignment is to search the web for a plant diagram which depicts plant structure and post it here. It must have plant part labels. Dave was being plenty patient with you as he has with others. I have to agree with him, looks like you topped above the 3rd node.

The fate of the western world does not depend on your node selection. If you don't get the results you want, better luck next time.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 14, 2010)

fdd2blk said:


> i see 6 side branches.


Hey man, it would help if RIU would allow the thread starter to edit his own thread. I could have included a FAQ on page one to answer the redundant questions. 

I (we) have addressed the first node issue until we're blue in the face. With very few exceptions, I refuse to respond any more and wish other members would take the same approach. I did address it again about 3 pages ago. If folks don't get it, it's not our problem.

At some websites, mainly FTA, if you ask a question that is addressed in a sticky or guide, they'll almost shoot you!

UB


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## rzza (Apr 14, 2010)

ub, i appreciate your help like no other, please be a bit more patient with me, i explained in last nights post that i am hard of comprehending things i read. i wasnt asking the same question you have been answering all along. my question is about the first node having a single fingered leaf rather then 3 or 5 fingered and does it still count as the FIRST TRUE NODE. otherwise why are you calling it a TRUE node? wouldnt all nodes be TRUE? this is where i became confused. 

attached is a copy of my homework you assigned and if you look this plant has coty then 2 single leafs without a branch. my plants all have those single fingered leafs except mine has main branches coming off them.

also in your pics in the op, it shows a plant without the single fingered leaf. yours has 3 fingers.

"Hey man, it would help if RIU would allow the thread starter to edit his own thread."-uncleben
shouldnt you be saying this to davecoulier?


----------



## fdd2blk (Apr 14, 2010)

rzza said:


> ub, i appreciate your help like no other, please be a bit more patient with me, i explained in last nights post that i am hard of comprehending things i read. i wasnt asking the same question you have been answering all along. my question is about the first node having a single fingered leaf rather then 3 or 5 fingered and does it still count as the FIRST TRUE NODE. otherwise why are you calling it a TRUE node? wouldnt all nodes be TRUE? this is where i became confused.
> 
> attached is a copy of my homework you assigned and if you look this plant has coty then 2 single leafs without a branch. my plants all have those single fingered leafs except mine has main branches coming off them.
> 
> ...



dude, what are you tripping on? seriously. it's a plant.


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## potroast (Apr 14, 2010)

Oh yeah, I've done FTA, too, and the FTA web forum sites are really tough! Those guys don't put up with anything. 

Not like us here at Rollitup, we're chilled.


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## fdd2blk (Apr 14, 2010)

https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/321683-lava-lamp-light.html


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## researchkitty (Apr 14, 2010)

The first true node is really easy. Ignore the leave sets that start initially, those arent a real node. Count two sets of branches above and pinch. If it looks too difficult, your overthinking it. Just snip when you have 4 real branches below your thumb, not counting the mini branches that came with the seed.


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## rzza (Apr 14, 2010)

lol fdd why did you link that? its sooooo funny, almost as good as the growing with an ipod touch thread. LOL


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## fdd2blk (Apr 14, 2010)

rzza said:


> lol fdd why did you link that? its sooooo funny, almost as good as the growing with an ipod touch thread. LOL


tension breaker.


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 14, 2010)

rzza said:


> ub, i appreciate your help like no other, please be a bit more patient with me, i explained in last nights post that i am hard of comprehending things i read. i wasnt asking the same question you have been answering all along. my question is about the first node having a single fingered leaf rather then 3 or 5 fingered and does it still count as the FIRST TRUE NODE. otherwise why are you calling it a TRUE node? wouldnt all nodes be TRUE? this is where i became confused.
> 
> attached is a copy of my homework you assigned and if you look this plant has coty then 2 single leafs without a branch. my plants all have those single fingered leafs except mine has main branches coming off them.
> 
> ...


The first true node can have sets of single bladed leaves, or 3 bladed leaves. I didn't know 3 bladed leaves could be the first set up until a few days ago when my Skunk Haze popped. Some of them have singled bladed leaves at the first node. Some have 3 bladed leaves, and some actually have two bladed leaves. But the vast majority of time it will be single bladed leaves.

And yes it is a true node. If in doubt, always count the first set of leaves beyond the cotyledons(baby leaves), as the first true node. 

Baby leaves = false node, next set of leaves = true node. Hence why he calls the nodes involved in topping true nodes.

Also in his pic, the first set are actually single bladed. The camera angle is deceptive. It appears 3 bladed only because you are looking at a 3 bladed leaf coming from the lateral branches.


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## rzza (Apr 14, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> The first true node can have sets of single bladed leaves, or 3 bladed leaves. I didn't know 3 bladed leaves could be the first set up until a few days ago when my Skunk Haze popped. Some of them have singled bladed leaves at the first node. Some have 3 bladed leaves, and some actually have two bladed leaves. But the vast majority of time it will be single bladed leaves.
> 
> And yes it is a true node. If in doubt, always count the first set of leaves beyond the cotyledons(baby leaves), as the first true node.
> 
> ...


 perfect, this is exactly what im looking for. thanks for taking the time to help.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 14, 2010)

rzza said:


> perfect, this is exactly what im looking for. thanks for taking the time to help.


And it's exactly what he's posted before and what is shown in our photos and the diagram you fetched.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 14, 2010)

potroast said:


> Oh yeah, I've done FTA, too, and the FTA web forum sites are really tough! Those guys don't put up with anything.


No shit and these guys are especially brutal. They've already ganged up on you before you've started the second post of your new thread. http://www.ftaforall.info/forums/


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## Danielsgb (Apr 14, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> No shit and these guys are especially brutal. They've already ganged up on you before you've started the second post of your new thread. http://www.ftaforall.info/forums/


Wow they are hardcore. Fuck Shit Pepsi, Nike, Sony. I broke so many rules right there I'd be done. lol


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## potpimp (Apr 14, 2010)

LMAO!!!! At least we had several posts w/o someone asking what the second true node was; what a relief! UB, can you please take a look at the pix in the last post in my current grow journal? I'm having a yellowing problem and hopefully you can determine what the true cause is. I've pretty well documented what all I did. The link is in my sig. Thanks so much!


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 14, 2010)

potpimp said:


> LMAO!!!! At least we had several posts w/o someone asking what the second true node was; what a relief! UB, can you please take a look at the pix in the last post in my current grow journal? I'm having a yellowing problem and hopefully you can determine what the true cause is. I've pretty well documented what all I did. The link is in my sig. Thanks so much!


Yeah. Some people can be so nodey. I'll have a look.


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## Foosk (Apr 14, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> That means that it is the least likely node to receive redirected ho moans. I'm also trying to explain plant hormonal responses - the ones at the top receive hormones that induce output the first. Top a plant, any kind of a plant, and it will induce dormant bud output starting with the top down.
> 
> By allowing the plant to get a good start, which occurs with some leaf material from say......6 nodes (opposing leafsets) as opposed to 2, you're just giving it a better jump-start. You can use the cutting as a clone.
> 
> ...


What exactly do you mean by making a clone from the cutting? Can you explain how to do this or give me a link to a thread that explains this process? I apologize if this was already asked somewhere earlier in the thread.


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## jjfoo (Apr 15, 2010)

Foosk said:


> What exactly do you mean by making a clone from the cutting?



It is just a cutting that got rooted. Some people call this a clone.

check google...

http://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+root+cannabis+clippings&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


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## researchkitty (Apr 15, 2010)

Hi everyone, and Uncle Ben especially. I started a new grow room, and using an Ebb & Flow system. My first harvest cycle uses two 1000w lights. Under each light, 9 plants for 18 total.

I am doing a DIRECT COMPARISON for Uncle Ben's topping method (btw, your rice in a box sucks, but your growing tips have helped ). 9 plants were topped 4 days ago. 9 plants remain untopped. I'm putting 9 under one light, 9 under the other.

This will tell me if his method works, how well it works, and a DIRECT comparison of identical environments with only one variable, being topped or not. Reading is one thing, but nobody in his thread did a comparison over the last few YEARS of it being up, so here's mine instead.

It'll also allow me to show you pictures of an untopped plants colas and weight, and a topped plants colas and weight. No more speculation, no more drama, just "here it is".

The plants are still vegging for another 5 days probably, and then I'll switch them to flowering. Sorry I dont have results today, but when you read this post and its 65 days from now, there WILL be results!  I update my grow journal every few days with pictures consistently and will do so throughout this experiment. I hope nobody views this as a thread hijack, the goal isnt to get people to watch my grow, the goal is to have photographic evidence of what happens when you try one new thing versus not at the same time.

Thanks everyone, and thank you especially, Uncle Ben.

(Link in sig)

Ms. Kitty.


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## potpimp (Apr 15, 2010)

researchkitty said:


> Hi everyone, and Uncle Ben especially. I started a new grow room, and using an Ebb & Flow system. My first harvest cycle uses two 1000w lights. Under each light, 9 plants for 18 total.
> 
> I am doing a DIRECT COMPARISON for Uncle Ben's topping method (btw, your rice in a box sucks, but your growing tips have helped ). 9 plants were topped 4 days ago. 9 plants remain untopped. I'm putting 9 under one light, 9 under the other.
> 
> ...


Ms. Kitty, I would save the research for something else; Uncle Ben's topping method totally works. Just trying to save you some effort and more bud.


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## Murfy (Apr 15, 2010)

so this is not just aesthetic- this technique will consistently grow higher yields?

unc?


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 15, 2010)

researchkitty said:


> Hi everyone, and Uncle Ben especially. I started a new grow room, and using an Ebb & Flow system. My first harvest cycle uses two 1000w lights. Under each light, 9 plants for 18 total.
> 
> I am doing a DIRECT COMPARISON for Uncle Ben's topping method *(btw, your rice in a box sucks,* but your growing tips have helped ).


That's what you get for shopping shitfaced. This is what you should be looking for. 








> 9 plants were topped 4 days ago. 9 plants remain untopped. I'm putting 9 under one light, 9 under the other.
> 
> This will tell me if his method works, how well it works, and a DIRECT comparison of identical environments with only one variable, being topped or not. Reading is one thing, but nobody in his thread did a comparison over the last few YEARS of it being up, so here's mine instead.
> 
> ...


I welcome your project. Thanks for sharing!


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## Danielsgb (Apr 15, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> That's what you get for shopping shitfaced. This is what you should be looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So where do I order this? How much is a case?
Daniels


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## jjfoo (Apr 15, 2010)

researchkitty said:


> I am doing a DIRECT COMPARISON for Uncle Ben's topping method (btw, your rice in a box sucks, but your growing tips have helped ). 9 plants were topped 4 days ago. 9 plants remain untopped. I'm putting 9 under one light, 9 under the other.


I'll be watching, too.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 16, 2010)

Danielsgb said:


> So where do I order this? How much is a case?
> Daniels


Plenty of it in S. Texas that's for sure. 

Lacey and Miss Kitty are pros, should be fun to watch their progress. Check 'em out.


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## Danielsgb (Apr 16, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Plenty of it in S. Texas that's for sure.
> 
> Lacey and Miss Kitty are pros, should be fun to watch their progress. Check 'em out.


I'm subb'd to both, started reading last night on those, and about 1/3 through Lacey's. Both are great reads. Thanks Lacey for keeping me up till 4 am. I love to see someone with a goal of Proving techniques. The 2 I topped are looking good. 2 or 3 will get topped later today. A couple have alternating branching so I'm undecided on them (even after the true node).
Now I wanna visit Texas
Daniels


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## Dr Gruber (Apr 16, 2010)

I just want to give a HUGE THANKS to Uncle Ben. Thanks for taking so much time to do this. I know you certainly dont have to do this and I appreicate the effort you have taken to pass your knowledge along.

Thanks UB!!!!!!!


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 16, 2010)

Danielsgb said:


> Now I wanna visit Texas
> Daniels


Lyle and his Large Band has a message for ya. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQoXnz3h_FE

BTW, that song is a pretty good example of Texas swing.



Dr Gruber said:


> I just want to give a HUGE THANKS to Uncle Ben. Thanks for taking so much time to do this. I know you certainly dont have to do this and I appreicate the effort you have taken to pass your knowledge along.
> 
> Thanks UB!!!!!!!


You're welcome. Gotta give credit to the other folks that prop up this thread too!


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## mammal (Apr 18, 2010)

i given this technique a try with a dinafem super critical haze (bottom left, obviously)







i'll keep this thread/post updated with the results. im also attempting to clone the top, check out my grow journal (in sig) for any updates on her.


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 18, 2010)

UB, I posted this picture in Subcools thread because it was Jack the Ripper, but I thought Id post them here as well. How rare in your experience is it for a plant to auto top itself?


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## Brick Top (Apr 18, 2010)

NuBud335 said:


> Your tutorial would make perfect sense if A. I knew what nodes were B. I knew what perfect nodes were, and C if i knew any other the other 1337 6r0x3rz terms you pro's use. I know, i should be in the n00b forum but someone directed me here for pruning/topping methods.


This might help a little.


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## riddleme (Apr 18, 2010)

Brick Top said:


> This might help a little.


Hey Brick Top haven't seen ya in a while


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 18, 2010)

Holy shit Brick Top is back! Its nice to see you around again. I hope we dont lose you again any time soon.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 18, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> UB, I posted this picture in Subcools thread because it was Jack the Ripper, but I thought Id post them here as well. How rare in your experience is it for a plant to auto top itself?


Never heard of it unless due to disease or insect pressures.

Yeah, last time I seen BT was when he was chasing a bunch of junior leaguer types off his boat dock, hay fork in hand, joint hangin' out the corner of his mouth.

Nice job BT!








UB


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## youngblood (Apr 19, 2010)

So, if let's say, you use the topping method to get 4 main colas, should you, after cutting above the 2nd inter-node, leave the plant to vegetate a while longer, or could you switch straight to flowering immediately or the next day for example? Thanks


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## sixstring2112 (Apr 19, 2010)

you could flower right away if you have space limits, but i would grow it out for a couple weeks


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 21, 2010)

Site's been sabotaged fer sure.


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## mammal (Apr 21, 2010)

mammal said:


> i given this technique a try with a dinafem super critical haze (bottom left, obviously)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


heres an update, 3 days later already lots of new growth


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## rastadoor (Apr 21, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Site's been sabotaged fer sure.


I think we will learn to like this new look.. I hope. Anyway heres an update on my awsome topped plant.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 22, 2010)

"We" think it sux. These aren't even my plants. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get.html The thread is all fukked up. Now given that I can't edit my own thread to make improvements or corrections and there's bugs all over the place, you'll not see me around much anymore.


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## baddfrog0221 (Apr 22, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> "We" think it sux. These aren't even my plants. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get.html The thread is all fukked up. Now given that I can't edit my own thread to make improvements or corrections and there's bugs all over the place, you'll not see me around much anymore.


Please come back someday.... Who will teach them?


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## Jack in the Bud (Apr 22, 2010)

Hey UB,

Hope all has been well with you and yours.

Was doing some upcanning earlier and came across another example of what a weird ol' gal mother nature can be at times. Ten days a go I pinched this plant above the first true set of leaves to get two main colas. The first thing I noticed while upcanning it was how one of the two new shoots was not near as developed as the other. Upon closer examination I noticed that the plant had grown another new branch *below* the cotyledon on the stunted side. 



I bent it down some to make it stand out clearer in the picture but notice how it had pushed up the right side cotyledon. I'm guessing it's formation was the cause of the branch above it being under developed in relation to the one across from it. I've pinched it off in hopes that it will cause the under developed branch above it to catch up with it's mate.

This time around I also got a nice little tri-foliate that's looking like it's going to produce 3 nice even main colas. I'm just hoping it turns out to be a girl.



Jack out.


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## alsandair (Apr 22, 2010)

hey ub i have grown before but never topped this will be first time.. i have 4 nodes now at day 14 of veg plant probly not even 6 inches tall yet maybe 4.. sinse its at node 4 when it hits 5 i cut above the 2nd node about 1/2 inch? i currently have barneys red diesel and barneys violator kush both mostly indica, will these strains respond ok to topping because i have heard that some strains dont.. i would show pictures but no camera at moment.. temps stay at 75-77 lowes around 61 and humidity is anywhere from 20-30% is that ok? i am doing in 2 35gal rubbermaids and about 220watts of cfl. would topping be good for me sense cfl's dont penetrate very deep, i thought this topping method would work well for more canopy penetration and more bud sights spaced out.. thank you very much for your help!


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## Murfy (Apr 22, 2010)

NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

uncle ben don't go?

we'll get this shit straightened out, right?

i feel like my whole fucking life is falling apart-
i hope the fucker responsible for this get s BUDROT


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 22, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> "We" think it sux. These aren't even my plants. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get.html The thread is all fukked up. Now given that I can't edit my own thread to make improvements or corrections and there's bugs all over the place, you'll not see me around much anymore.


You cant leave us UB. Who else am I gonna show my Skunk Haze pics to? 


Side note: Does anyone know why everytime I try to use an apostrophe it brings up some quick link search thats very similar to Ctrl +F?


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## trailerparkboy (Apr 25, 2010)

alright i have a few ?s sorry if theyve been asked but this is a long ass thread 1-when u say true nodes u mean the sets with actual fan leaves right 2-my plants are getting pretty big side branchs at the 2nd node of 5 is it to late to top then and finally if after i top i veg as long as i would if i was gonna grow without topping will my 4 colas be big like a single cola would

Thanks for any help


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## researchkitty (Apr 25, 2010)

Why not email the mods with the problems and give em a chance to resolve them first? It isnt unreasonable to expect some broken RIU stuff within days after them doing a major "upgrade"....

At least they spell marijuana on the logo right, remember when they had that misspelled for like 5 years?


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## baddfrog0221 (Apr 25, 2010)

trailerparkboy said:


> alright i have a few ?s sorry if theyve been asked but this is a long ass thread 1-when u say true nodes u mean the sets with actual fan leaves right 2-my plants are getting pretty big side branchs at the 2nd node of 5 is it to late to top then and finally if after i top i veg as long as i would if i was gonna grow without topping will my 4 colas be big like a single cola would
> 
> Thanks for any help


Basically you can top at any time after the fifth node. Uncle Ben suggests topping the plant back down to the third or fourth node. It is best to do this during veg before flowering so your plant has time to redirect the hormones needed to create the new stems. Topping produces two stems. You can LST to get your plant to produce more stems and you can FIM. 

If you just top you will get two main colas on your plant and if grown properly those colas will produce double the amount that one would have. But you have to support them if they get too heavy so they don't hurt themselves.


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 25, 2010)

baddfrog0221 said:


> Basically you can top at any time after the fifth node. Uncle Ben suggests topping the plant back down to the third or fourth node. It is best to do this during veg before flowering so your plant has time to redirect the hormones needed to create the new stems. Topping produces two stems. You can LST to get your plant to produce more stems and you can FIM.
> 
> If you just top you will get two main colas on your plant and if grown properly those colas will produce double the amount that one would have. But you have to support them if they get too heavy so they don't hurt themselves.


Badfrog, did you read any of the first page before even writing that? Im pretty sure you are the second person in this long thread to say UB suggests the 3rd or 4th node. How do you guys come up with that? He clearly states top after the second true node a million times. Topping above the second true node will usually create 4 main colas. Although some minor LST'ing after topping maybe necessary some of the time to get the 4 main tops. 

Back to trailerparks post, true nodes are the ones with fan leaves. It doesn't matter if its single bladed, 3 bladed, etc. It isn't too late to top them. Its great you already have good lateral branching already. It'll get you a nice jump start on growth after topping. Your 4 main colas after topping should be pretty damn near similar to what you get with non-topped plants.


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## laceygirl (Apr 25, 2010)

Hi Dave I think he means you can top between the second and third node when the plant has grown in the fourth or fifth node... That's how I read it any ways.. Peace..


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 26, 2010)

It means exactly what I wrote in the first sentence of the first page. 

I think the mods and RIU are aware of the issues. Hopefully it won't stay like this for long. One reason why I was attracted to this place was the feel of the site. The previous format was fine, why they wanted to screw with it is confusing. Also, I can't find any mention of the changeover anywhere.

Stay free,
UB


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## Moldy (Apr 26, 2010)

Hey Ben.

Thanks for the help! I may have screwed up but the AK-47 I cropped turned out to have eight main kolas. It's the pix on my avatar. I don't think I can let a plant grow without cropping it any more. Also thanks for the "N"ute help as my plants didn't turn yellow except in the very late stage of flowering! I filtered in a little N when I noticed leaves turning yellow in early flowering. Good advise! Thanks!


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## riddleme (Apr 26, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> It means exactly what I wrote in the first sentence of the first page.
> 
> I think the mods and RIU are aware of the issues. Hopefully it won't stay like this for long. One reason why I was attracted to this place was the feel of the site. The previous format was fine, why they wanted to screw with it is confusing. Also, I can't find any mention of the changeover anywhere.
> 
> ...


Hey UB

Glad your back, most of the stuff has been fixed there is a thread in the support forum discussing errors and fixes, seems like the last big one is the pic's in threads, they are working on it, also there was a newsletter that was emailed that discussed the upgrade.

The blog thing is cool, as your post stays on top and you can edit it 100%

hope you don't mind me answering a few of your questions while you were away


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## Danielsgb (Apr 26, 2010)

My 3 girls I topped are looking good. Thanks for the knowledge UB. Glad to see a post from ya. I got my soil analysis back from Texas A&M. I'll add it on my journal. They are the bomb. You Texans don't waste time.
Daniels


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## Murfy (Apr 26, 2010)

yeah it was started by me!-
anyway i am currently cloning so this technique is not as cut and dry, in running some trials i have gotten one nice one that had four tops, most wanna have three and i've noticed that trying to do more than four always has unpredictable results (with my strain anyway) i.e. two tops and then the rest of the branches want to look like a pumpkin plant, basically like a vine growing along the floor (i'm going to do more experimentation with this and try to utilize it in an outdoor grow)-
even the one's with 4 tops do this too an extent, 3 will be together and the other goes straight sideways then up

i'll post some pics later


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## Danielsgb (Apr 26, 2010)

I got my report back from Texas A&M System. $15 for an analysis is great. They were pretty fast too (like 5 days, and round-trip just over a week). Here's the website http://soiltesting.tamu.edu
It says.

pH 6.5
Conductivity 813
N 22 (it says to add .3lbs/1000 sq ft.)
P 225
K 706
Calcium 1,569
Magnesium 410
Sulfur 193
Sodium 369
Iron 29.18
Zinc 4.82
Manganese 14.15
Copper 1.89

I'll add .5 cups blood meal to the 2 sq. yards of soil I have left for the transfer to the final 4gal pots. Does that sound like enough, yet not too much? Once again thanks UB for the simplest, fastest, and cheapest route to answer my ? about the soil mix
Daniels


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## GetActive (Apr 27, 2010)

This is a fantastic technique!!!! Awesome write up and indepth pictorial. I will have to try this out and incorporate it into my LST grow. I will be paying close attention to your postings in the future Uncle Ben.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 27, 2010)

Danielsgb said:


> I got my report back from Texas A&M System. $15 for an analysis is great. They were pretty fast too (like 5 days, and round-trip just over a week). Here's the website http://soiltesting.tamu.edu
> It says.
> 
> pH 6.5
> ...


Sounds like a good start. You'll know based on the color of the leaves.


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## Danielsgb (Apr 27, 2010)

Yea, meant for that to be on my grow journal, but was a little waked and baked.
I was happy to see a post from ya. Sulfur is high on the bar chart, but I expected the Sodium to be too high from the Epsom Salt being too much. It's below the CL level on the bar chart. Thanks again.
Daniels


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 28, 2010)

Danielsgb said:


> Yea, meant for that to be on my grow journal, but was a little waked and baked.
> I was happy to see a post from ya. Sulfur is high on the bar chart, but I expected the Sodium to be too high from the Epsom Salt being too much. It's below the CL level on the bar chart. Thanks again.
> Daniels


Glad it worked out, those analysis are priceless. BTW, epsom salts contains no Na. It's MgSO4 I believe. That's a high level of Na and its source should be investigated. It's negative effect (if any) will be offset by the high amount of Ca.

Good luck,
UB


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## R3DROCk9 (Apr 30, 2010)

UB

I'm here reading up on your topping technique and can't help bu wonder, "can u jus LST above the second node (by bending down with a twist tie) and still redisdistribute the hormones"? thus, in the end, finishing with five main colas, instead of four??


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## Straight up G (Apr 30, 2010)

why is your name red rock ? it does not exist it is incense *LOL*


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## riddleme (Apr 30, 2010)

Straight up G said:


> why is your name red rock ? it does not exist it is incense *LOL*


Actually red rock does exist, here in Colorado Red Rocks National Park is a huge attraction (nothing but Red Rocks) and a big ampheater where concerts are held every year, you can google it


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## Danielsgb (Apr 30, 2010)

riddleme said:


> Actually red rock does exist, here in Colorado Red Rocks National Park is a huge attraction (nothing but Red Rocks) and a big ampheater where concerts are held every year, you can google it


I went to many concerts there when I went to CSU. Best natural amphitheater I've ever seen.
Daniels


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 30, 2010)

Can't apply with a quote!

Yes, LST redistributes the auxins.


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## robert 14617 (Apr 30, 2010)

have to give respect to you Tio, just checked a plant ,out doors that is short and stocky with four well distributed colas ,she showed me preflowers today


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## wadd (Apr 30, 2010)

HappyGrowing86 said:


> sorry here's the pics


looking at your ladies was this done by lst/ looks like tie down below but can't tell


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## Murfy (Apr 30, 2010)

so here's some i've been working on


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## Grizzdude (Apr 30, 2010)

So today I gave it a shot going for 4 main colas and I found the SIM teknique. I went to chop the top right above the 2 node, and also chopped one of the side shoots! Shit I Missed! So will I now have 3 main branches or will the side shoot on the other side try to become the only main cola? What do I do!


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 30, 2010)

Hey Robert, glad to hear things are going your way.


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## ElectricPineapple (Apr 30, 2010)

hey UB, you should check my thread. all my plants have been topped using your method and the two big mommas are soo bushy. thank you for perfection and making the time to experiment with this technique. this will always be one of my base trainings. 

pine


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 30, 2010)

Grizzdude said:


> So today I gave it a shot going for 4 main colas and I found the SIM teknique. I went to chop the top right above the 2 node, and also chopped one of the side shoots! Shit I Missed! So will I now have 3 main branches or will the side shoot on the other side try to become the only main cola? What do I do!


You will still end up with 3 main tops. I did the same damned thing to one of my Skunk Hazes, and it has 3 strong growing tops. Ive noticed from my plants, heavy sativas really grow fast after topping, while hybrids, or anything indica dominant is slower. Or maybe the skunk haze are just more vigorous than them. UB, have you ever noticed a difference in growth between sativas, and indicas after topping?


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## Grizzdude (May 1, 2010)

Thanks dave, I just wasn't sure if I was just going to get 1 top out of it. Thanks


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## Uncle Ben (May 2, 2010)

ElectricPineapple said:


> hey UB, you should check my thread. all my plants have been topped using your method and the two big mommas are soo bushy. thank you for perfection and making the time to experiment with this technique. this will always be one of my base trainings.
> 
> pine


Good to hear it!



DaveCoulier said:


> UB, have you ever noticed a difference in growth between sativas, and indicas after topping?


Not really, except in height. Sativas are gonna grow taller than indicas, that's just what they do. I topped this way in response to growing mainly sativas indoors, that's how it came about. 

Update, after starting quite a few seedlings and having them torn up by high winds, I'm down to 2. Will top one above the cotyledons and the other above the second node and try to post some photos soon. Got to admit, what's left are beautiful plants. Crappy "soil" did not contribute to damp-off as expected. High winds bent over the tops and "broke" the fragile "trunks" and even after staking with wooden skewers, they would not heal enough to resume growth. Spring winds have been brutal, even with windbreaks, staking and cages I've had to replant tomato plants. Robert, you can relate to this, eh? BTW, love the avatar shot of the chameleons doing The Nasty, hah!

later.......


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## Murfy (May 2, 2010)

uncle ben-

good to see ya around again


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## robert 14617 (May 2, 2010)

Thanks Tio ,keep up the good fight ...Robert


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## Mendo Afgood! (May 2, 2010)

I've heard mixed reviews. I know some people who never top. What will get the highest yield overall???


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## riddleme (May 2, 2010)

Mendo Afgood! said:


> I've heard mixed reviews. I know some people who never top. *What will get the highest yield overall?*??


understanding a bit of botany and growing the plants properly


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## Mendo Afgood! (May 2, 2010)

riddleme said:


> understanding a bit of botany and growing the plants properly


. Can you answer the question or just be a smart alec? I had a ? And if your not going to answer please don't chime in with your insults


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## DaveCoulier (May 2, 2010)

Mendo Afgood! said:


> I've heard mixed reviews. I know some people who never top. What will get the highest yield overall???


Topping is going to increase yield. Sure some people say it doesnt, but just use some common sense. You can have one cola, or 4 that are likely to be just as big. Im sure someone has told you before topping gives you smaller colas than a single one, but that hasn't been the case in my experience. If you're still on the fence, then just do a side by side for yourself.


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## Tagh (May 2, 2010)

When he says pinch 2nd true node for 4 main cola's does he/you mean from the bottom?


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## DaveCoulier (May 2, 2010)

Tagh said:


> When he says pinch 2nd true node for 4 main cola's does he/you mean from the bottom?


Yes, you count upwards from the bottom.


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## Mendo Afgood! (May 2, 2010)

Thanks dave. I was looking for reponses like that. Real opinions . I've heard farmers with lots of different opinions I was looking to hear some o yours!


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## Tagh (May 2, 2010)

Thanks alot will do when the time comes.


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## riddleme (May 3, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Mendo Afgood!*  
I've heard mixed reviews. I know some people who never top. *What will get the highest yield overall?*??
​




Originally Posted by *riddleme*  
understanding a bit of botany and growing the plants properly



Mendo Afgood! said:


> . Can you answer the question or just be a smart alec? I had a ? And if your not going to answer please don't chime in with your insults


I did answer the question that I highlighted in bold and was not being sarcastic, my answer is correct, nothing I said was an insult only the truth


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## meathook666 (May 3, 2010)

He's right. His answer was just honest not sarcastic at all (unless you are very sensitive). Peace.


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## ElectricPineapple (May 3, 2010)

Menfo, what riddleme told you, is correct. you can take two growers, one who knows what he is doing and the other doesnt. they both have the same strain but the inexperienced growers plant gets trained by a professional, that it. everything else he does. now, unless the new grower gets lucky, the experienced grower will get a higher yield. that is because he knows what he is doing and knows how to react to what the plant is telling him.

so, dont be a bitch and bad mouth riddleme. he is a very intelligent person and is always in the newb forum and helping people. you should feel honored that he answered your question. not disrespectful.


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## hpo (May 3, 2010)

Could you explain the next node. If you top at the second node, do you wait for the next node?


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## Tagh (May 3, 2010)

hpo said:


> Could you explain the next node. If you top at the second node, do you wait for the next node?


I'm not sure I understand that question but from what I read and asked.

Grow your plant until you have about 6-7 true nodes.
Top just above 2nd true node for 4 colas.
1st true node for 2 colas.

What I don't know is what a fake node would be but i'm sure ill manage lol


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## Mendo Afgood! (May 3, 2010)

ElectricPineapple said:


> Menfo, what riddleme told you, is correct. you can take two growers, one who knows what he is doing and the other doesnt. they both have the same strain but the inexperienced growers plant gets trained by a professional, that it. everything else he does. now, unless the new grower gets lucky, the experienced grower will get a higher yield. that is because he knows what he is doing and knows how to react to what the plant is telling him.
> 
> so, dont be a bitch and bad mouth riddleme. he is a very intelligent person and is always in the newb forum and helping people. you should feel honored that he answered your question. not disrespectful.


 
NO SHIT! LET me rephrase my ??? So you can understand. If A Very Experienced grower decided to TOP Or NOT to Top Which one would yield higher results? Maybe now you'll understand the question for what it's worth. Like I Said, I heard very mixed views from very experienced farmers on this matter. I was trying to get some more. Not get bashed by some internet superstars


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## Tagh (May 3, 2010)

Mendo Afgood! said:


> NO SHIT! LET me rephrase my ??? So you can understand. If A Very Experienced grower decided to TOP Or NOT to Top Which one would yield higher results? Maybe now you'll understand the question for what it's worth. Like I Said, I heard very mixed views from very experienced farmers on this matter. I was trying to get some more. Not get bashed by some internet superstars


Grow 2 plants, top one leave the other, you will know 1st hand what you works best you.


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## genuity (May 3, 2010)

Tagh said:


> Grow 2 plants, top one leave the other, you will know 1st hand what you works best you.


never let me down..thats the only way to learn...^^^^good reply


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## Stonezilla (May 3, 2010)

First post.. 
trying to catch up but after 1000 posts and still reading, I thought I may jump ahead and ask WITH PICTURES 

I topped a random found plant in my yard and it gave me this after the 1st node trim.







If I top after the 1st node on the two new stems , will it give me this? .. 







.. the first node on the new main branches are also sprouting 3 leaves as the original did at the first node so I was just thinkin..

rawrya..


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## DaveCoulier (May 3, 2010)

UB, I thought you would find this picture very interesting as you are experimenting to see if there are lateral buds at the cotyledons. I noticed something peculiar about this plant when I was watering today. This is the only plant out of 65 to show this so far. You really can't see the cotyledons any more as they've yellowed up and fallen off mostly. You'll also notice a two bladed leaf at the first node. Those Skunk Hazes are some odd growing plants. I dont expect anything to come of them. You can see how scrawny they are compared to the lat branching from the first node.


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## Uncle Ben (May 4, 2010)

Dave, couldn't open up the thumbnail. In fact, I can't do much of anything here anymore. Nothing seems to work right.

The Skunk will have wimpy trunk/branches that will need support, that's just what they do. Welcome to the crazy world of sativas!

Welcome to the thread Stonezilla. Any where you pinch out terminal growth you can expect output at the petiole axis.

UB


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## Danielsgb (May 4, 2010)

Here's the three I topped. It worked perfectly. Thanks again.
Daniels
Hopefully you can see the pics.


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## DaveCoulier (May 4, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Dave, couldn't open up the thumbnail. In fact, I can't do much of anything here anymore. Nothing seems to work right.
> 
> The Skunk will have wimpy trunk/branches that will need support, that's just what they do. Welcome to the crazy world of sativas!
> 
> ...


I hope you can see it now.


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## Uncle Ben (May 4, 2010)

Danielsgb said:


> Here's the three I topped. It worked perfectly. Thanks again.
> Daniels
> Hopefully you can see the pics.


All I get is a black page when I try to open them, but based on the thumbnails, they look great!



DaveCoulier said:


> I hope you can see it now.
> 
> Not really. Not sure what I'm supposed to be looking for but that's OK.
> 
> Good luck!


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## DaveCoulier (May 4, 2010)

Your killing me UB . Heres a link to imageshack. You should definitely be able to see the picture now.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/3719/latbranching.jpg


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## Stonezilla (May 4, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Welcome to the thread Stonezilla. Any where you pinch out terminal growth you can expect output at the petiole axis.
> 
> UB


Thank you for the welcome 

Understood.. I guess what I'm asking is if the 2/4/8 bud site math starts over on new stems.
i was trying to illustrate 2 stems coming out of both of the new stems if I pinched off again after the 1st node on 2nd level.
Basically a slow way to get 4total colas with 2 colas split off 1 branch which in turn is split off the main.

rawrya


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## Uncle Ben (May 4, 2010)

I got it. Photo sux Dave. What is your point amigo?


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## DaveCoulier (May 5, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> I got it. Photo sux Dave. What is your point amigo?


...You are trying to see if there are dormant buds at the cotyledons as I recall. I thought it would be interesting to show you a picture of a plant that is doing just that.


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## Uncle Ben (May 5, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> ...You are trying to see if there are dormant buds at the cotyledons as I recall. I thought it would be interesting to show you a picture of a plant that is doing just that.


Really!? Can't see if from the photo, would be nice to have a close up, natural light and be able to enlarge it. Please take another shot of it. Having said that, I'm not going to bother with my experiment, I'll just top the 2 plants remaining. I've never seen any output from the cotyledons when I top above the 2nd "true" node.

later....


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## kronbckootoutdoor (May 5, 2010)

so if u top the 2 nodes growing where you already topped could u get 16????


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## DaveCoulier (May 5, 2010)

kronbckootoutdoor said:


> so if u top the 2 nodes growing where you already topped could u get 16????


You would get a bushier plant, but its unlikely you would get 16 even tops.


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## Brick Top (May 5, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *DaveCoulier*  ...You are trying to see if there are dormant buds at the cotyledons as I recall. I thought it would be interesting to show you a picture of a plant that is doing just that.







Uncle Ben said:


> Really!? Can't see if from the photo, would be nice to have a close up, natural light and be able to enlarge it. Please take another shot of it. Having said that, I'm not going to bother with my experiment, I'll just top the 2 plants remaining. I've never seen any output from the cotyledons when I top above the 2nd "true" node.
> 
> later....




After looking at the pictures I would have to darn near word for word say everything that UB said.


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## DaveCoulier (May 6, 2010)

Geez, quit busting my balls guys . Im gonna try to borrow my friends digi this weekend and take pics.


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## Jack in the Bud (May 9, 2010)

Guys,

Sheesh, seems like every time I start to think I've got this growing thing figured out some thing new pops up that confounds the hell out of me. I'm hoping some of you (especially you UB) might be able to give me some insight into what might be causing the new growth on some of my plants to be twisted and deformed. With in the last two weeks this has begun to show up on about 20% of my current crop.



They're being grown in a mix I made up (following some guidlines UB gave me, 6 months or so back) that contains a 3.8 cubic foot bale of Sunshine Mix #2, 2.5 cf bag of MG potting soil, 1 cf bag of steer manure, several cups of blood and bone meal, some dolomitic lime, and around 3 gallons each of perlite and vermiculite. No alfalfa pellets this time.

The plants are 58 days old (from seed in dirt). Around 23 days ago they were pinched to form two main colas. They have had no additional nutrients, minerals, hormones, etc. given to them and have only been watered with rain water or snow melt that I've collected. Could it be that by using this purer water I've deprived them of something essential that they're needing?

Additionally I also have some hot pepper plants that I've started for the out door garden and some of them are growing in a very deformed manner. They're in the same soil and have recieved the same water as the MJ. 



Up until the last week or so everything seemed to be progressing fine with nice healthy growth. I've been re-reading all the stuff on nutrients and plant stress but am just stumped at this point. Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

Jack


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## chainseeker (May 9, 2010)

Oh topping master thanks 4 the lessons man. Quick question I started flowering too early my impatient's got the best of me. Had some other reasons to hurry things along as well. Anyway been flowering 4 a few days now maybe 5 days and saw my 1st pistols today so is it too late to use ur method? Sorry if u addressed this already and I missed it. She broke ground 4/15/10.


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## NBKA (May 12, 2010)

Tag for later....


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## DaveCoulier (May 12, 2010)

chainseeker said:


> Oh topping master thanks 4 the lessons man. Quick question I started flowering too early my impatient's got the best of me. Had some other reasons to hurry things along as well. Anyway been flowering 4 a few days now maybe 5 days and saw my 1st pistols today so is it too late to use ur method? Sorry if u addressed this already and I missed it. She broke ground 4/15/10.


Unless you are growing a long flowering sativa that takes a month plus before you even see signs of sex, I wouldn't top. Generally, you'd like the plant to have a week or more after topping before flowering all depending on how quickly your plants growing, how healthy it is, etc, etc.


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## chainseeker (May 12, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Unless you are growing a long flowering sativa that takes a month plus before you even see signs of sex, I wouldn't top. Generally, you'd like the plant to have a week or more after topping before flowering all depending on how quickly your plants growing, how healthy it is, etc, etc.


Hey Dave thanks 4 the input! I can't wait to pop some more beans and top em for four main cola's. What an addicting hobby this is so much to learn.


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## DaveCoulier (May 12, 2010)

chainseeker said:


> Hey Dave thanks 4 the input! I can't wait to pop some more beans and top em for four main cola's. What an addicting hobby this is so much to learn.


I agree it is a very addicting hobby. Always trying to learn new ways of improving our grows, and searching for tips. Im on my third grow now, and i just keep going bigger and bigger. From two 8 plant grows to over 50 plant grow now..lol. 

On a side note, Im starting to think lateral output at the cotyledons isn't as rare as I thought. I up-canned some more plants tonight, and 2 more of the skunk haze exhibit this, a C99 X Deep Chunk, a Jack the Ripper all have done this. Pics are still coming eventually.


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## chainseeker (May 12, 2010)

No shit over 50. Damn I'm in trouble I see things getting bigger in the future. I gotta long way to go though. Hurry with those pics would ya. LOL!


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## Danielsgb (May 12, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> I agree it is a very addicting hobby. Always trying to learn new ways of improving our grows, and searching for tips. Im on my third grow now, and i just keep going bigger and bigger. From two 8 plant grows to over 50 plant grow now..lol.
> 
> On a side note, Im starting to think lateral output at the cotyledons isn't as rare as I thought. I up-canned some more plants tonight, and 2 more of the skunk haze exhibit this, a C99 X Deep Chunk, a Jack the Ripper all have done this. Pics are still coming eventually.


True dat. I'm called "obsessed" by a couple friends and family now that I can't work but can grow my "ladies" God they are fun. Responsive yet forgiving. Dave, you should check my journal and see how they've progressed. since you recommended waiting to top them.
Daniels


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## Unclepauly (May 13, 2010)

WHY DOESN'T THE FIRST POST SAY YOU SHOULDN'T TOP WITH ALTERNATING NODES?!..... WHICH I JUST HAPPENED TO DO?! HUH? EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TUTORIAL ON THE INTERNET REGARDING TOPPING SHOULD HAVE A NOTE AT THE BOTTOM SAYING "DON'T TOP CLONES WITH ALTERNATING NODES". Basically I just set my top growth back a week or two thanks bunches


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## Murfy (May 13, 2010)

why not top clones-
i do mine with AMAZING results, and yes they have alternating clones, my experience with my strain is that i can top to the third node and expect to get 6 tops every time, top higher than that and it unpredictable

relax guy they'll be fine


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## potpimp (May 13, 2010)

Maybe it would be a good idea if you read more than the first post before jumping into something. Still, your plants are not as "hurt" as you might suspect and you will still get more bud from them that if you had not topped them.

Uncle Ben, I have a small problem. About 2 weeks ago, I topped 3 of my plants and the clones took root and are about 3-4" taller now and doing amazing. I noticed that on my kushes, one branch of the 4 was gimpy. So rather than tolerate a gimpy cola, I decided to snip it and use it as a clone. I didn't use a dome on the tops and they did fine. I didn't use a dome on the branches I cut either but they are looking like hell. Within an hour they were wilted like I had left them in my car. I misted them with water and Superthrive as soon as I planted them. I used Clonex gel and plugged them into a great organic soil mix. The plants may survive but it would surprise me. Any ideas as to why the branches (8" long avg.) didn't do well?


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## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2010)

Jack in the Bud said:


> Guys,
> 
> 
> They're being grown in a mix I made up (following some guidlines UB gave me, 6 months or so back) that contains a 3.8 cubic foot bale of Sunshine Mix #2, 2.5 cf bag of MG potting soil, 1 cf bag of steer manure, several cups of blood and bone meal, some dolomitic lime, and around 3 gallons each of perlite and vermiculite. No alfalfa pellets this time.
> ...


I'd say that soil is too hot.



Unclepauly said:


> WHY DOESN'T THE FIRST POST SAY YOU SHOULDN'T TOP WITH ALTERNATING NODES?!.....


Because I didn't feel like it. RIU does not allow thread starters to edit their posts, go figure.

Hope that helps.



potpimp said:


> Maybe it would be a good idea if you read more than the first post before jumping into something. Still, your plants are not as "hurt" as you might suspect and you will still get more bud from them that if you had not topped them.
> 
> Uncle Ben, I have a small problem. About 2 weeks ago, I topped 3 of my plants and the clones took root and are about 3-4" taller now and doing amazing. I noticed that on my kushes, one branch of the 4 was gimpy. So rather than tolerate a gimpy cola, I decided to snip it and use it as a clone. I didn't use a dome on the tops and they did fine. I didn't use a dome on the branches I cut either but they are looking like hell. Within an hour they were wilted like I had left them in my car. I misted them with water and Superthrive as soon as I planted them. I used Clonex gel and plugged them into a great organic soil mix. The plants may survive but it would surprise me. Any ideas as to why the branches (8" long avg.) didn't do well?


Not really. They need almost 100% RH.


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## Day to Daze (May 14, 2010)

ok look .. i just cant grasp one aspect.. 

one guy asked "above 3rd node = 8 colas?"
and you said yes... 

why 

if there are 2 dormant sites at each node... shouldnt it be
avove the first node is 2 colas
above the second node is 4 colas
and above the third node - 6 colas?

if not why... thats 3 nodes so thats 6 new sites right??????

please tell me you were supposed to answer differently to his qiestion because this has confused me for months... 


and dont you dare just tell me to re-read the thread lol... there is no way in hell im going through all that for a 4th time.

i hope someone can reasure me its 6 colas if you top just above the 3rd node.


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## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2010)

Day to Daze said:


> one guy asked "above 3rd node = 8 colas?"
> and you said yes...


Uhhhhhh, I don't think so. 



> why
> 
> if there are 2 dormant sites at each node... shouldnt it be
> avove the first node is 2 colas
> ...


I chose the point above the 2nd node as a good point to induce nice chunky colas like that found on an untopped plant. I don't consider a plant having been topped at the 3rd or higher node to be much of anything other than a squatty bushy plant consisting of a bunch of secondary branches versus primaries. It all depends on what kind of output and plant profile you want. My method gives you up to 4 large, chunky colas. When you start going higher than that, the lower node site is like the bastard child of a household, he doesn't get as much gruel as the others and usually ends up retarded and stunted. So 'no', you won't necessarily get 6 main colas if you top above the 3rd node. 

Bottom line? Read the damn thread, don't misquote me, go figure why I capitalized all letters in the subject header of "2 or 4 <MAIN> colas" when I first drafted the thread...... and experiment on your own lol. 

Good luck,
UB


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## Day to Daze (May 14, 2010)

dont misquote me .. lol .... page 2..... he askes.. above the 3rd node is 8 colas... first word you type is YEAH






Originally Posted by *winkdogg420*  
cut above the third get 8 colas???????????





Yeah, but you'll get small colas and not necessarily dominant ones, just bushy as hell. Your typical main cola on the typical plant is the dominant branch or leader, just as a dominant leader (trunk) on a pecan or oak tree would be. Top (pinch out the top of that leader) and you have just redistributed the ho moans to points (dormant foliar buds) below the cut, which makes for multiple leaders.

ok i get it now. that confused me for so long... i read the thread and i get it all ... i know the thread is about 2-4 colas.. and yeah i know its silly to go above that because there not realy main colas then ... but i always wondered why you agreed with him . ever since i first read it... 


its all good i get it all t hanks for the advice.. i just needed to know that 3rd node wasnt 8 colas it realy confused me lol .. 

thanks for all your advise... 
and ps.. your a smart guy right i get that .. but when you reply to some guys... dont get angry because they dont get it... you speak from your head.. and your head is smarter than most.. im not talking about me.. just other posts i see.. i would be sad if you just said read the thread. 

im not having a go sorry... just speaking my mind.. 

cheers again for clearing that up for me .


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## jjfoo (May 14, 2010)

When topping clones do you could every two nodes (that are not at the same height) as a node or do you count each alternate node as a node?

I have a bunch of clones that I plan to top. I will leave 3 on some 4 on others (alternating nodes), just want to know about when to top.


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## riddleme (May 14, 2010)

Glad to see ya back, missed reading your post!


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## DaveCoulier (May 15, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> When topping clones do you could every two nodes (that are not at the same height) as a node or do you count each alternate node as a node?
> 
> I have a bunch of clones that I plan to top. I will leave 3 on some 4 on others (alternating nodes), just want to know about when to top.


I have yet to top a clone, but I would count out that you have exactly 4 axillary shoot locations below the point you plan on topping at. So you should have 4 leaves below the location where you are topping, and from their axil's will arise 4 potential tops. Let me know how well your clones turn out after topping. Ill be taking clones sometime next week, and would love to see how well yours turn out before I top.


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## Uncle Ben (May 15, 2010)

Day to Daze said:


> dont misquote me .. lol .... page 2..... he askes.. above the 3rd node is 8 colas... first word you type is YEAH


"Yeah" as in a more bushy plant. There is no way you'll get 8 colas topping above the 3rd node. Every node has 2 dormant buds.

Don't know why anyone would top plants with alternate phytollaxy.

UB


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## jjfoo (May 15, 2010)

dave, I'm not asking how many to leave, I'm asking how many to have in total before I top.

With seeds I counted each two branches as a node, with clones they are not two by two, but singe branches. Do I count each branch as a node or each two (like with seeds).

I have already been leaving 3 on some and 4 on some with great results. I just want to know when is the best time...

Like with a seed if we go for six nodes, there are 12 branches. On my clone there would be six branches.


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## DaveCoulier (May 15, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> dave, I'm not asking how many to leave, I'm asking how many to have in total before I top.
> 
> With seeds I counted each two branches as a node, with clones they are not two by two, but singe branches. Do I count each branch as a node or each two (like with seeds).
> 
> ...


Ill see if I can help out any. Im not sure if two alternating leaves is a node, or if it is considered two, but either way, just make sure you have 4 leaves, which would give us 4 dormant shoots that can grow out after topping. 

As when to top, just treat them like a plant from seed. When they have a strong root system, I would top them. If your growing hydro, then its easy to tell when you've got a good root system. If its soil, then Im sure you can figure it out as you've already got experience topping plants from seed.


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## jjfoo (May 15, 2010)

I'm thinking that I'll count each single shoot the same way I'd treat each two shoots from a seed. Basically when my plants are about 12 inch tall I'll cut them. Like you said, it is about topping the plant when it is ready and established.


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## MrBuds.com (May 15, 2010)

Nice topping technique...I will have to try the 2nd true node...flowering time has to do with genetics and environmental factors....


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## mindphuk (May 16, 2010)

Has anyone show a side-by-side comparison to prove that 4 colas are going to yield more than one large one all other things being equal, i.e. same lighting, nutes, pot size and identical root mass, etc. The amount of energy it can take in through fan leaves and it's root system is going to be limited by light, water and nutrients, not by it's geometry... or will it?
I can see how topping can help fill in certain areas, keep a tall plant shorter, and may allow a person to utilize his space and lighting more efficiently and probably some other helpful things but UB is implying (if not directly saying) that four is better than one given the same plant and I don't understand how and would like evidence that it does.


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## Uncle Ben (May 16, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> Has anyone show a side-by-side comparison to prove that 4 colas are going to yield more than one large one all other things being equal, i.e. same lighting, nutes, pot size and identical root mass, etc. The amount of energy it can take in through fan leaves and it's root system is going to be limited by light, water and nutrients, not by it's geometry... or will it?
> I can see how topping can help fill in certain areas, keep a tall plant shorter, and may allow a person to utilize his space and lighting more efficiently and probably some other helpful things but UB is implying (if not directly saying) that four is better than one given the same plant and I don't understand how and would like evidence that it does.


Been discussed before in this thread. For many reasons, there is no way any one can compare yield of a single versus a quad. I "feel" there is a definate increase in yield for a quad versus a single.

UB


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## mindphuk (May 16, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Been discussed before in this thread. For many reasons, there is no way any one can compare yield of a single versus a quad. I "feel" there is a definate increase in yield for a quad versus a single.
> 
> UB


 Thank you for the honest and quick reply. I was sure the question had been asked, I even did a little searching first but didn't find it. 
Some of these long stickied threads need their own FAQ/index


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## Thestinker (May 16, 2010)

just a quik and simple question.
when is it too late to top? Ive had my latest cali dream clones vegging for 2 weeks and they already have several sets of branches ( they're about 12" tall), 
If i top this late will it have a negative impact? thanks in advance


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## DaveCoulier (May 16, 2010)

Thestinker said:


> just a quik and simple question.
> when is it too late to top? Ive had my latest cali dream clones vegging for 2 weeks and they already have several sets of branches ( they're about 12" tall),
> If i top this late will it have a negative impact? thanks in advance


It depends on how much longer you are wanting to veg. If your goal was to flower now, then its probably not worth it as it'll probably take 2 more weeks before you have enough new growth to make it worth it. Now if your goal is to grow a big tree inside that you veg for 3 months, then id say go for it.


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## Thestinker (May 16, 2010)

gonna be vegging for another 5-6 weeks, I've got a white widow in there with them as well but shes a few inches smaller so Im going to leave her to do her own thing,
Im not sure how she would react to topping as I've heard they can be delicate but someone please correct me if Im wrong. 
Funnily enough 1 of the main reason for topping the girls is to make it easier to divide between me and my family, last crop was several different strains and everyone was fighting over the main colas lol


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## DaveCoulier (May 16, 2010)

Thestinker said:


> gonna be vegging for another 5-6 weeks, I've got a white widow in there with them as well but shes a few inches smaller so Im going to leave her to do her own thing,
> Im not sure how she would react to topping as I've heard they can be delicate but someone please correct me if Im wrong.
> Funnily enough 1 of the main reason for topping the girls is to make it easier to divide between me and my family, last crop was several different strains and everyone was fighting over the main colas lol


Ive topped Nirvana White Widow, and they didn't respond negatively in anyway. Widow is an easy strain to grow. Real hardy. 

With 6 weeks, Id think its okay to top especially if your bottom 4 (future colas) are developing nicely already as you wont lose too much for now.


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## Thestinker (May 16, 2010)

this widow is a cutting from the last 1 we had which got started few weeks after the others and so was the runt when the girls went into flowering hopefully this time she will reach her potential. 
Tomorrow is the weigh up ( widows been drying 7 days now) and me and my bros struck a deal that they each got a cali dream main cola each and I get the widow cola, 
I cant wait 
cheer for your help bro +rep


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## researchkitty (May 17, 2010)

My grow journal has topped and untopped white widow. If you want to see the differences, go for it. I dont see ANY reason White Widow should not be topped, its working like a champ here! Just made me realize I havent posted pictures in about 10 days.  Time to get on that! Allow me a few hours.


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## reefacheefa (May 17, 2010)

is he talkn bout cutting the main stem bout 1/4" above the second node for four colas, or right at the leaves??


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## DaveCoulier (May 17, 2010)

reefacheefa said:


> is he talkn bout cutting the main stem bout 1/4" above the second node for four colas, or right at the leaves??


Dont cut right at the leaves. The last thing you want to do is accidentally cut off one of your future colas.


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## reefacheefa (May 17, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Dont cut right at the leaves. The last thing you want to do is accidentally cut off one of your future colas.


ooooo, i thought the first pic looked like it was a lil above, but wasn sure if the stem had jus startd growin back r not. thx man. ++++


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## potpimp (May 19, 2010)

1/2" above the second node.


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## plebean (May 19, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> ...the incoherent Green movement's farce and their idealogically driven games.


UB,
Been trying to read up on everything you've written and as far as I'm concerned, you ARE rollitup.org. And I'm so relieved to see that someone else sees through the organic/green movement's insidious propaganda. It's hard to present the facts to the general public, as the majority of them have been drinking the water. The problem is that the facts have been manipulated, overstated, or intertwined with hearsay, and trying to promote rational thought gets you branded as a heretic or "bad" person. I wish I had a collection of all your organic/green movement/feelings rants!

I think you might enjoy Zizek's take on our contemporary ecological ideology, that it has taken religion's place as the opiate of the masses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGCfiv1xtoU

May your grows be bountiful soldier.


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## nattyhead357 (May 19, 2010)

what is a "true" node. I know what a node is but what is a true node. My plant is 3 weeks old and Its 6th alternating node is forming. Would now be a good time to Top. I am lookin to get 4 main colas.

Peace


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## Uncle Ben (May 19, 2010)

plebean said:


> UB,
> Been trying to read up on everything you've written and as far as I'm concerned, you ARE rollitup.org. And I'm so relieved to see that someone else sees through the organic/green movement's insidious propaganda. It's hard to present the facts to the general public, as the majority of them have been drinking the water. The problem is that the facts have been manipulated, overstated, or intertwined with hearsay, and trying to promote rational thought gets you branded as a heretic or "bad" person. I wish I had a collection of all your organic/green movement/feelings rants!
> 
> I think you might enjoy Zizek's take on our contemporary ecological ideology, that it has taken religion's place as the opiate of the masses:
> ...


Thanks man, that was truly a hoot. The Green Movement is just another fringe group that wants control of our lives. Government is a group of people, the Green Movement is a group of people. Gays are a group of people....all groups trying to control us.

I just pissed off some of my friends that bought into the bullshit that Monsanto is out to make and sell all the world's seeds and is at the forefront of requiring a government mandate to make the use of organic fertilizers illegal. Look at this propaganda from these organic loons: http://www.topix.com/forum/city/paintsville-ky/TU04QDO2GRRBGG3DT
*Monsanto says it has no interest in the bill and would not benefit from it, but Monsanto&#8217;s
Michael Taylor who gave us rBGH and unregulated genetically modified (GM) organisms, appears to have designed it and is waiting as an appointed Food Czar to the FDA (a position unapproved by Congress) to administer the agency it would create &#8212; without judicial review &#8212; if it passes. S 510 would give Monsanto unlimited power over all US seed, food supplements, food and farming.*

Upon scrutiny, this bill actually EXEMPTS organic, conventional, large or small farmers from government intervention/inspections, which is what has some food safety advocates upset, blame them. The fact that some organic wacko has to jump on the anti-Monsanto bandwagon is lame enough...... you'd think they'd do their homework before pitching their unsubstantiated, emotionally driven drivel. I mean give me a break! --> *"S 510 would give Monsanto unlimited power over all US seed, food supplements, food and farming."* Yech! 

Now, back to the real world....... 

Consumer Union is taking the following position on amending this law which hasn't been amended in 70 years, and I quote: 

*The proposed amendment to exempt from safety standards any farm that sells direct to a wide range of customers puts American consumers at risk.*

Produce &#8211; everything from spinach to tomatoes, berries to peppers &#8211; has been implicated in countless foodborne illness outbreaks in recent years. Of the top ten riskiest FDA-regulated foods identified by the Center for Science in the Public Interest in a recent report, four were produce items.(1) 

Your proposed amendment exempts any farm &#8211; no matter the size &#8211; from safety standards when it sells its produce to a wide range of customers" 
http://www.consumersunion.org/pub/core_food_safety/016320.html 

Looks like it's the food safety (food coalition) groups that are pushing for more regulation! Down with all the frickin' control freaks of the world!

Don't give up the good fight for truth,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (May 19, 2010)

nattyhead357 said:


> what is a "true" node. I know what a node is but what is a true node.


A true node is the opposite of one that is false. False nodes can not be trusted and should be avoided at all costs. When checking out one's nodes, always ask for an ID to verify authenticity.


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## genuity (May 19, 2010)

lol........lol........you need to quit it.lol


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## nattyhead357 (May 19, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> A true node is the opposite of one that is false. False nodes can not be trusted and should be avoided at all costs. When checking out one's nodes, always ask for an ID to verify authenticity.


HAHA, rep... that was funny as hell...


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## Danielsgb (May 19, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> A true node is the opposite of one that is false. False nodes can not be trusted and should be avoided at all costs. When checking out one's nodes, always ask for an ID to verify authenticity.


 LMAO on that one UB
Daniels


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## ksr (May 20, 2010)

Great thread UB, and lots of great information keep it up. Im curious about your plant that you showed the four main colas. How tall was the plant? Im trying to guestamate how much i will harvest from my jacks. Maybee you could give me your opinion if i post some pics. O and the plants are 3 to 4 ft tall but ill posst some pics.


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## nattyhead357 (May 20, 2010)

so any one wanna answer my question??


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## mammal (May 20, 2010)

just read the first couple of pages of the thread again, its really fucking simple.


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## Stonezilla (May 20, 2010)

nattyhead357 said:


> what is a "true" node.


I would believe that the lack of response to your question is due to the fact that it's been answered several times thus far and if you read a bit you'll find the answer 

start with page one. between 1 and 222 it's been asked 30+ times maybe ?

A Hint though, Arizona wouldn't approve of the false nodes either.

rawrya


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## Murfy (May 20, 2010)

I'M SURELY GETTIN SICK OF THE NEWB'S STINKIN UP THE JOINT 
this is a discussion forum, reading is required
this is the third subscribed thread i been to with this same scenario


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## nattyhead357 (May 20, 2010)

damn you need to chill the fuck out, sorry if I miss it in over 2,000 responses. I did fucking read and obviously I didnt see the question answered, so instead of being assholes about shit


> I'M SURELY GETTIN SICK OF THE NEWB'S STINKIN UP THE JOINT
> this is a discussion forum, reading is required
> this is the third subscribed thread i been to with this same scenario


Specifically this dick wad 

a simple answer like Stonezillas, or mammal would have sufficed.


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## Uncle Ben (May 20, 2010)

ksr said:


> Great thread UB, and lots of great information keep it up. Im curious about your plant that you showed the four main colas. How tall was the plant? Im trying to guestamate how much i will harvest from my jacks. Maybee you could give me your opinion if i post some pics. O and the plants are 3 to 4 ft tall but ill posst some pics.


About 4' tall.


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## Uncle Ben (May 20, 2010)

nattyhead357 said:


> damn you need to chill the fuck out, sorry if I miss it in over 2,000 responses. I did fucking read and obviously I didnt see the question answered, so instead of being assholes about shit
> 
> Specifically this dick wad
> 
> a simple answer like Stonezillas, or mammal would have sufficed.


Where's your garden? Post your garden, and we'll be glad to help. You're either into some rhetorical ditty to gain attention, or, you have a bonafide garden.

Which is it?

As an aside - noobs, if you're not out of your Mom's house, not on your own, are not of legal age and do not have some feel of botany, please take yourself elsewhere.

Thanks,
Uncle Ben


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## nattyhead357 (May 20, 2010)

My Garden is on a Thread I started on RIU. I am a new grower, but so were we all at one point. 


> if you're not out of your Mom's house, not on your own, are not of legal age and do not have some feel of botany, please take yourself elsewhere.


hmm Im on my own and of legal age and know alot about botany actually just never tried my hand in the cannibus field.
I have never heard of a "true" node and I was just clarifying for my knowledge and I wouldn't have posted it if I had found the answer my self, but I missed it in the 200+pages.


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## nattyhead357 (May 20, 2010)

https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/327267-extremely-new-grower.html please...comment away, I love to recieve help, comments and try to better my knowledge everyday.


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## ksr (May 21, 2010)

Here are the pictures of my garden as promised. sorry for wait 
Im hoping I will be able to get 2.5 ounces per plant from my 23 jacks and about 1.5 per plant for my 24 white russians. They are at 1 week flowering exactly. and the white russians are about 2-2.5 ft.
thanks for the help man 

Pics 1-9 are the jacks and the last four are the russians. Sry for the lines in the pic the light was to bright.


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## jayganja78 (May 21, 2010)

ksr said:


> Here are the pictures of my garden as promised. sorry for wait
> Im hoping I will be able to get 2.5 ounces per plant from my 23 jacks and about 1.5 per plant for my 24 white russians. They are at 1 week flowering exactly. and the white russians are about 2-2.5 ft.
> thanks for the help man
> 
> Pics 1-9 are the jacks and the last four are the russians. Sry for the lines in the pic the light was to bright.


sorry for this but thay look nice and all that but this is about topingplants and i dont see any thing link that on yours pritty wank m8 tbh but its funny how people get so high and fuck up


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## Uncle Ben (May 21, 2010)

nattyhead357 said:


> hmm Im on my own and of legal age and know alot about botany actually just never tried my hand in the cannibus field.
> 
> I have never heard of a "true" node and I was just clarifying for my knowledge and I wouldn't have posted it if I had found the answer my self, but I missed it in the 200+pages.


Obviously you don't know what a node is or you wouldn't be asking (forget the word "true" since it seems so confusing to you). I explained the process and location on the first post in this thread and posted pictures.

Again NOOBS, DO NOT MUDDY up this thread with your redundant questions. I'm (we're) getting real damn tired of your laziness. If you can't read or comprehend elementary concepts, then move on.



ksr said:


> Here are the pictures of my garden as promised. sorry for wait
> Im hoping I will be able to get 2.5 ounces per plant from my 23 jacks and about 1.5 per plant for my 24 white russians. They are at 1 week flowering exactly. and the white russians are about 2-2.5 ft.
> thanks for the help man
> 
> Pics 1-9 are the jacks and the last four are the russians. Sry for the lines in the pic the light was to bright.


Good on ya! Can't open the photos thanks to this crippled website, page turns black. Does anyone have any inside info as to whether or not RIU is going to be coded correctly, or will it forever remain worthless?

UB


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## ElectricPineapple (May 21, 2010)

well i can open the pics up just fine on my end. may be your computer. or your browser and connection. or the other possibility, the website, not the mods or any of the people, but the website itself and servers dont like you hahaha jp.


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## ksr (May 21, 2010)

Hey jayganja if you had read my original question you would realize that Im not asking nor giving any advise about topping. I simply asked UB for some advise. So I'd like it if you kept your comments to yourself. Thanks


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## DaveCoulier (May 21, 2010)

I am able to view pictures fine with either firefox or IE. Perhaps you need to update your web browser UB.


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## Uncle Ben (May 21, 2010)

IE works fine for viewing photos. It's my browser although the website isn't what it used to be.


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## ElectricPineapple (May 21, 2010)

yes i do like the old RIU better. i liked the rando picture bar on top of the forums page.


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## mikehaze (May 21, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Obviously you don't know what a node is or you wouldn't be asking (forget the word "true" since it seems so confusing to you). I explained the process and location on the first post in this thread and posted pictures.
> 
> Again NOOBS, DO NOT MUDDY up this thread with your redundant questions. I'm (we're) getting real damn tired of your laziness. If you can't read or comprehend elementary concepts, then move on.
> 
> ...


way to sound like an ass lol, maybe you should be a little less blunt about the way you word your insults, and one more thing, SMILE!


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## potpimp (May 21, 2010)

Great... another dickhead. UB, do you have any idea why there are so many lazy, stupid people on this forum?


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## Murfy (May 21, 2010)

right?-
the first three pages read the same as the next 220

AND
by the way uncle ben directs ALOT of people towards successful gardening, and i'm sure, some respect would be due, this is his thread
OK BACK TO THE GARDENING

P.S. i too, liked the old forum better, i had forgotten all about the random picture viewer


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## jjfoo (May 21, 2010)

It is easy, people don't like to research, 'do their homework', etc. They instead want to be told what to do (spoon fed). I think there are several kind of people. Those who ask why (in a inquisitive way) and those who don't.

Many people probably don't consider reading long threads.


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## nattyhead357 (May 21, 2010)

okay guys Ill read all 224 pages and then come back to you in 3 months.. peace


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## Murfy (May 21, 2010)

if it takes 3 months you are hopelessly lost in the woods


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## nattyhead357 (May 21, 2010)

or i have a job and don't spend all my time on the internet...


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## mikehaze (May 21, 2010)

potpimp said:


> Great... another dickhead. UB, do you have any idea why there are so many lazy, stupid people on this forum?


I wasnt being a dick, i was simply saying that just because somebody may not want to read, or take the initiative to research something themself doesnt necessarily mean you have to be rude to them, i take the time to read almost every post in every forum i post in, this thread isnt really necessary for me to read every page because i wasnt asking for advice, i WAS looking for advice, and i enjoyed the post, the info given by Uncle Ben was very helpful and i really appreciate it. I was just simply stating that i dont think you went about responding in the nicest manner.

Best Regards,
Mike


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## mikehaze (May 21, 2010)

Murfy said:


> ha, you gotta be kiddin me, i worked so fuckin hard it tore my body to pieces, and paid the fuckin 30%
> even with my back WRECKED, i bet you'd hustle to keep pace with this old fart


Hey man, i really dont want to offend anyone, i didnt say anything rude to you, im not sure why you feel the need to be so rude and insult people for no particular reason, i didnt say anything to you or about you so maybe you could just either
A.)dont be a dick
B.)fuck off


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## Uncle Ben (May 21, 2010)

Website issues - can any one apply with a quote option? I can't. It just gives me some lame gibberish, no way to reply. Only the "Quick Reply" works, regular doesn't.

UB


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## riddleme (May 21, 2010)

WTF, you guys??? you want to make folks feel bad for not reading the whole thread then you add 2 pages of crap to it for no good reason and it's not even your thread

if UB wants to seem rude in HIS thread he can, it's his thread, what is every one elses excuse???

take a f*cking hit and chill


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## riddleme (May 21, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Website issues - can any one apply with a quote option? I can't. It just gives me some lame gibberish, no way to reply. Only the "Quick Reply" works, regular doesn't.
> 
> UB


 
Works for me UB, I'm using IE8, not having any problems since they fixed things


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## mikehaze (May 21, 2010)

riddleme said:


> WTF, you guys??? you want to make folks feel bad for not reading the whole thread then you add 2 pages of crap to it for no good reason and it's not even your thread
> 
> if UB wants to seem rude in HIS thread he can, it's his thread, what s every one elses excuse???
> 
> take a f*cking hit and chill


again, youre taking it the wrong way, im not trying to make him feel bad, i just think its dumb to put people down just because they dont have time to read 2245 posts and thus should be treated with respect, there is no reason to be rude, im not saying he CANT, i was just saying that if someone is being a dick, maybe they should stop and think about how other people see it, maybe somebody that could come up with the 'next big thing' in growing could be just now learning and MAYBE, just maybe, they might get discouraged by the completely vulgar and unnecessary replies they get. Just something to consider, like i said, im not trying to be a dick, and i dont think rollitup should be represented by people who act as such.

again, my apologies if ive offended anyone, but i just wanted to get my point across.

mike


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## mikehaze (May 21, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Website issues - can any one apply with a quote option? I can't. It just gives me some lame gibberish, no way to reply. Only the "Quick Reply" works, regular doesn't.
> 
> UB


Uncle Ben, all I can suggest is to maybe delete cookies and restart the browser, the reply with quote option is working fine for me.


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## nattyhead357 (May 21, 2010)

My only thing is I came on this thread looking for help, UB gave some good info, but treated me with more disrespect than I have ever recieved while here at RIU. I will have a negative mindset about UB's post from now on because of it. If I wanted to get heckled I would have started a thread for it.


> take a f*cking hit and chill


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## Uncle Ben (May 22, 2010)

mikehaze said:


> Uncle Ben, all I can suggest is to maybe delete cookies and restart the browser, the reply with quote option is working fine for me.


I'll try that plus deleting cache too. IE works fine. Now if they would do something about the "feel". I really liked the original version, it was one of the best forums IMO.



nattyhead357 said:


> My only thing is I came on this thread looking for help, UB gave some good info, but treated me with more disrespect than I have ever recieved while here at RIU. I will have a negative mindset about UB's post from now on because of it. If I wanted to get heckled I would have started a thread for it.


Stop your whining son or I'll sik Aunt Benita on ya. She carries a mighty big stick.

UB


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## mammal (May 22, 2010)

mammal said:


> i given this technique a try with a dinafem super critical haze (bottom left, obviously)
> 
> 
> 
> ...





mammal said:


> heres an update, 3 days later already lots of new growth


and heres another update exactly one month later, now 2 days into 12/12

'uncle bens topped' super critical haze, a strange beast if there ever was one. it did create 4 tops in total but one of them was alot smaller and slower than the others so i trimmed it off and created a clone with it. so now it has 3 'main tops':








OR DOES IT? one of those branches self-topped itself and grew into 2 seperate tops, so in fact there are still 4 tops....







AND STRANGER STILL the biggest of the tops now has a bizzare triple node structure where 3 leaves and 3 new shoots are coming from each node (you can just about see 2 of these triple nodes in this photo)


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## potpimp (May 22, 2010)

My Kushes didn't seem to like having 4 colas. One of them on 3 of the 4 were stunted. I took one as a clone myself - but being as I almost totally suck at cloning - that was a waste. I have managed to successfully clone five. That SCH looks awesome! Uncle Ben, you still rock!


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## SIRE (May 23, 2010)

uncle ben said:


> i'll try that plus deleting cache too. Ie works fine. Now if they would do something about the "feel". I really liked the original version, it was one of the best forums imo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
uncle ben,dave, riddle me hello (you guys have been helping me from the beginning thank you.) i have a few concerns to ask about. Right now i have two set ups. I share a 4x4x7 tent with 1000 watts strictly for flowering with my brother and i have a 2x2x5 tent full of t5's for vegging and a 3.5x3.5x6 tent with a 600 watt and fans for flowering. I'll post pics later. My question is do outside growers worry bout the moonlight at night like inside growers are worried bout light leakage?3 also from the beginning what can u do to stop ur plant from falling over in the pot once in flowering? I have been growing cinderella99,bubba kush, nebula(anybody knows if this is a good strain?). The cinderella grows long branches and they themselves get pretty lanky. I have them in 3 gallon pots. I tied them up with twine but it looks messy and not effecient. Now that i started flowering under my 600 i dont want the same issues. The guy at the nursery said just tie them up but i need a prevenative messure. I topped two cindy's but they have a lot of sativa in them so the still get lanky. Any help would be positive thanx.


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## DaveCoulier (May 23, 2010)

SIRE said:


> uncle ben,dave, riddle me hello (you guys have been helping me from the beginning thank you.) i have a few concerns to ask about. Right now i have two set ups. I share a 4x4x7 tent with 1000 watts strictly for flowering with my brother and i have a 2x2x5 tent full of t5's for vegging and a 3.5x3.5x6 tent with a 600 watt and fans for flowering. I'll post pics later. My question is do outside growers worry bout the moonlight at night like inside growers are worried bout light leakage?3 also from the beginning what can u do to stop ur plant from falling over in the pot once in flowering? I have been growing cinderella99,bubba kush, nebula(anybody knows if this is a good strain?). The cinderella grows long branches and they themselves get pretty lanky. I have them in 3 gallon pots. I tied them up with twine but it looks messy and not effecient. Now that i started flowering under my 600 i dont want the same issues. The guy at the nursery said just tie them up but i need a prevenative messure. I topped two cindy's but they have a lot of sativa in them so the still get lanky. Any help would be positive thanx.


This is my first year growing outdoors, and Im not at all worried about moonlight. I highly doubt it is an issue. Your the first person Ive ever seen bring it up, so Id say dont worry about it. Ive yet to have the problem of tieing plants up, but Ive got some lanky skunk hazes going right now, so Ill probably have to do the same soon as well. Maybe you could put some stakes in your soil and tie your branches to it.


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## SIRE (May 23, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> This is my first year growing outdoors, and Im not at all worried about moonlight. I highly doubt it is an issue. Your the first person Ive ever seen bring it up, so Id say dont worry about it. Ive yet to have the problem of tieing plants up, but Ive got some lanky skunk hazes going right now, so Ill probably have to do the same soon as well. Maybe you could put some stakes in your soil and tie your branches to it.


so why does a light leakage indoors is a big deal and not moonlight?


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## riddleme (May 23, 2010)

SIRE said:


> so why does a light leakage indoors is a big deal and not moonlight?


cause folks need something to blame hermies on besides inadequate growing skills


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## SIRE (May 23, 2010)

riddleme said:


> cause folks need something to blame hermies on besides inadequate growing skills


so plants aren't that sensitive? cuz now i was changin my light cycle because the tent is dark but when u look up in the light fixture its a little light coming thru the cool hole but i would prefer to be on 9 am off (for heat reasons) and 9 pm on


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## riddleme (May 23, 2010)

SIRE said:


> so plants aren't that sensitive? cuz now i was changin my light cycle because the tent is dark but when u look up in the light fixture its a little light coming thru the cool hole but i would prefer to be on 9 am off (for heat reasons) and 9 pm on


They need 3000 lumens minimum for photosynthesis to take place

just leave em in the dark till you want the lights on then keep it consistant!


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## chainseeker (May 23, 2010)

Cool guys I've been wondering about light leaks myself. No prob's yet. But it's another worry to cross off the list. Thanks for clearing that up Riddle.


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## SIRE (May 23, 2010)

riddleme said:


> They need 3000 lumens minimum for photosynthesis to take place
> 
> just leave em in the dark till you want the lights on then keep it consistant!


so ur saying that no light leakage will ammount to 3000 lumens thus will not cause a problem


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## chainseeker (May 23, 2010)

A 3000 lumen leak would be a like have two small cfl's in with them. Oh yeah 4:20 post


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## MI Ganja Farmer (May 23, 2010)

Minor light leaks won't cause much if any damage. Too much light will force the plants back into a vegetative state.(somewhere around 3000 lumens) If you have light leaking into your room you definitely have light leaking out too and should make sure this doesn't give away the location of your grow.(bright lights can be as much as a give-away as odor!) It is in your best interests to get your grow as light tight as possible.

When I switched my lights to come on at night during the hot months I used a green incandescent bulb in my grow space so I could still tend to my plants in the dark cycle. Since green is the only color in the light spectrum that doesn't effect the photo-period of cannabis. Good Luck!


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## ElectricPineapple (May 23, 2010)

it actually wont effect the photoperiod of any plant. its not specific to cannabis


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## likeshispot (May 24, 2010)

UB: I have done my best to read this entire thread but I don't see my question here so here it goes. I am growing an OG clone right now and I want to do your method, but the nodes are confusing me because they have alternating branches. Each node has only one branch coming off to one side, not two going in opposite directions, you know what I mean? If each of those IS a node, then I'm have nice new growth at the 5th right now, which would mean its time to top above the 2nd node correct? but the second node only has one branch coming off... Does it make no difference?


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## DaveCoulier (May 24, 2010)

likeshispot said:


> UB: I have done my best to read this entire thread but I don't see my question here so here it goes. I am growing an OG clone right now and I want to do your method, but the nodes are confusing me because they have alternating branches. Each node has only one branch coming off to one side, not two going in opposite directions, you know what I mean? If each of those IS a node, then I'm have nice new growth at the 5th right now, which would mean its time to top above the 2nd node correct? but the second node only has one branch coming off... Does it make no difference?


Likeshispot, if you are looking for four main colas off your clones, then you need to count out where you have 4 lateral shoots growing, and cut above the last one. If the lateral shoots aren't noticeable yet, then just count up from the bottom 4 leaves, and cut above the last one. Your lateral shoots will come from where the base of the leafs petiole and the stem connect. If you are having trouble understanding then check out the picture below. The item listed as the Axillary Bud is what I am referring to. Dont automatically expect 4 even colas from your clones. I can't even get that when topping plants from seeds, so you may need to do some training via tying down the taller shoots to allow the lower ones to catch up in height.


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## likeshispot (May 24, 2010)

Thanks Dave! I just topped her, nice and early so she can develop the cola sites for a good month or two before flowering. I'm only growing this one plant and she's under two 60watt cfl's right now until this thursday when my 150 watt hps gets here. I may buy an mh conversion bulb for it for veging. She's growing in a 6 gallon pot of fox farms ocean forrest, haven't given nutes yet because the soil should be enough for a while. I made one of those co2 things with yeast and sugar and that seems to be helping. I want to do everything I can within a fairly low budget to make her a big gnarly plant. Let me know if you have any other advice for me, I appreciate the speedy reply.


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## DaveCoulier (May 24, 2010)

likeshispot said:


> Thanks Dave! I just topped her, nice and early so she can develop the cola sites for a good month or two before flowering. I'm only growing this one plant and she's under two 60watt cfl's right now until this thursday when my 150 watt hps gets here. I may buy an mh conversion bulb for it for veging. She's growing in a 6 gallon pot of fox farms ocean forrest, haven't given nutes yet because the soil should be enough for a while. I made one of those co2 things with yeast and sugar and that seems to be helping. I want to do everything I can within a fairly low budget to make her a big gnarly plant. Let me know if you have any other advice for me, I appreciate the speedy reply.


One bit of advice to give you is to not immediately put a small plant into a large container. Its best to start your clones/seedlings in small pots, and allow them to fill up the soil with roots, then upcan them incrementally. They will make better use of the soil this way, and less likely to be over-watered. A 6 gallon pot will take a long time to dry out, so you could easily over-water small plants in such large containers.


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## likeshispot (May 24, 2010)

Ok, I can be very careful about not overwatering as I have a moisture meter and its my only plant, is it worth repotting it again at this point or should I just be careful?


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## DaveCoulier (May 24, 2010)

likeshispot said:


> Ok, I can be very careful about not overwatering as I have a moisture meter and its my only plant, is it worth repotting it again at this point or should I just be careful?


Id probably just leave it as is and be careful with watering.


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## researchkitty (May 24, 2010)

The more you look at a plant more you want to water them. Just leave em be.  It doesnt rain 10 times a day! =)


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## EnjoyIt (May 25, 2010)

Im having the same problem likeshi is having. I dont have any nodes that have adjacent brances, they all alternate. Im putting up some pics and i marked off the 2nd nodes. Should I be cutting them there? Any help would be nice. BTW: I do plan on training these plants to grow close to the ground to make them not so noticeable. Will this affect my attempts to get 4 colas if i top these off?


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## nightwulf1974 (May 26, 2010)

Peeps,

Here is my first attempt at 4 colas, she is looking GREAT! Snow White just started flowering a few days ago....worked like a champ Thanks UB!


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## azoo (May 26, 2010)

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/m_-PIpYpIfQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/m_-PIpYpIfQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


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## medicalmary (May 26, 2010)

hi,

just topped 24 hours ago and some leaf discoloration appeared on fan leaves from 2nd node. has anyone else seen this before? Might it be from stress from topping? Can pinpoint what it is. here is a link to the post:

https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/334440-beginning-something-suspicious-need-help.html

Thanks in advance to anyone with the answer.


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## medicalmary (May 26, 2010)

never mind. i feel stupid. i think it is nute burn.


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## DaveCoulier (May 27, 2010)

I finally got my friends digital camera, so here are some pics of lateral branching from the cotyledons. You can still see the shriveled up cotyledons in some of the pics. This is also a plant I accidentally lopped off one of its future main colas. Ooops.

Here are a couple of imageshack link in case anyone is having problems with thumbnails here.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9528/picture030p.jpg
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4669/picture024e.jpg

Here is the big girl in all her glory(I believe its a girl). The wingspan on this bitch is insane. The bottom two branches is a little over 2.5 feet. If I hadn't lopped off the other cola, it'd probably be 3-3.5 feet for the upper ones. 

This is also day one of flower. She's going to stretch like crazy on me. Oh yeah, dont anyone yell at me for having the ballast on the floor. Its going up on the wall tomorrow.


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## jfa916 (May 27, 2010)

i topped my plant once and it is better to top it


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## Kirashiro (May 28, 2010)

I was wondering if i should top my plant now or wait until it sexes... I'm trying to keep a short bushy plant and this is a first time grow.

View attachment 963129View attachment 963130View attachment 963132


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## DaveCoulier (May 28, 2010)

Kirashiro said:


> I was wondering if i should top my plant now or wait until it sexes... I'm trying to keep a short bushy plant and this is a first time grow.
> 
> View attachment 963129View attachment 963130View attachment 963131View attachment 963132


I would go ahead and top now, but I wouldn't top for four main colas. That will set you back awhile with a plant that well developed. Just remove the top node, and you should get your short bushy plant you are hoping for..but that looks like a sativa you are growing, so short and bushy usually dont really go hand in hand with sativas .


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## stowandgrow (May 29, 2010)

nightwulf1974 said:


> Peeps,
> 
> Here is my first attempt at 4 colas, she is looking GREAT! Snow White just started flowering a few days ago....worked like a champ Thanks UB!


Those are looking real nice!! Best of luck with the grow!


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## Kirashiro (May 29, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> I would go ahead and top now, but I wouldn't top for four main colas. That will set you back awhile with a plant that well developed. Just remove the top node, and you should get your short bushy plant you are hoping for..but that looks like a sativa you are growing, so short and bushy usually dont really go hand in hand with sativas .


Do you think i'd be better off to just LST the plant instead of topping it?


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## Tagh (May 29, 2010)

Kirashiro said:


> Do you think i'd be better off to just LST the plant instead of topping it?


Utilizing both would be your best bet.


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## Kirashiro (May 29, 2010)

Tagh said:


> Utilizing both would be your best bet.


How far down the plant am i able to top it?


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## DaveCoulier (May 30, 2010)

Kirashiro said:


> How far down the plant am i able to top it?


Im high right now, but I think Ive had an epiphany regarding your situation. If you topped that plant by taking off its top node, you'd end up with underdeveloped lateral shoots that are now your main colas. With your internodal distance, no lower branches looks like they could be taller and thus the apical meristem. 

I think the better thing to do would be to top further down where you go from good lateral growth to poor lateral growth and then top between them. Now your future colas are already more developed and should yield more if you put it right into flowering. 

I hope this makes some sorta sense to someone. If im wrong feel free to correct me.


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## Jut (May 30, 2010)

i dont get this cus im looking to top my dutch passion power plant whats the true node ? :S


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## Danielsgb (May 30, 2010)

Oh my God start going back till you find it. Shouldn't take more than 10 minutes.
Daniels


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## whiteflour (May 30, 2010)

The first node with a serrated leaf is the true node. The cotyledons are the round the leaves.


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## Kirashiro (May 30, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Im high right now, but I think Ive had an epiphany regarding your situation. If you topped that plant by taking off its top node, you'd end up with underdeveloped lateral shoots that are now your main colas. With your internodal distance, no lower branches looks like they could be taller and thus the apical meristem.
> 
> I think the better thing to do would be to top further down where you go from good lateral growth to poor lateral growth and then top between them. Now your future colas are already more developed and should yield more if you put it right into flowering.
> 
> I hope this makes some sorta sense to someone. If im wrong feel free to correct me.


Cool cool man. I'm new to this so i don't have any other opinion.  I'm gonna try trimming about half way down the plant and i'll let ya know how it goes.


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## warrenb (May 30, 2010)

I topped my plant as suggested by the starter of this thread (my first grow outdoors or anywhere) and I am wondering can the growth become too dense as my colas are absolutly chocker block with leaves and most are fairly small?I am wondering if there will be room for buds later on?Also since I topped it most of the leaves have a brown cripiness on the tips and edges is this common with this technique??? Any sort of advice would be appreciated. See photos.


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## Tagh (May 30, 2010)

Kirashiro said:


> How far down the plant am i able to top it?


Myself have never used LST and topping together.
I'm currently learning the practicality as we speak on my 1st "real" grow.
But my 7 plants I vegged for about a month and a half so far there are currently about 1ft and I just pinched the tops of mine last week already can tell there all starting 2 main colas.
What i did is called FIMMING (FIM) though what Uncle Ben discusses here is topping.


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## DaveCoulier (May 30, 2010)

warrenb said:


> I topped my plant as suggested by the starter of this thread (my first grow outdoors or anywhere) and I am wondering can the growth become too dense as my colas are absolutly chocker block with leaves and most are fairly small?I am wondering if there will be room for buds later on?Also since I topped it most of the leaves have a brown cripiness on the tips and edges is this common with this technique??? Any sort of advice would be appreciated. See photos.


Wow..dont worry about leaves being dense. They are not going to block off the growth of your buds. The buds grow around the leaves. 

That browning around your plants leaves has nothing to do with topping. The plant is suffering from severe leaf scorch. You are probably giving it way too many nutes. Id flush it, and reduce your nute usage in the future.


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## warrenb (May 31, 2010)

Thanks very much for the reply dave I really do appreciate it.Good news about the leaves as I can not see any of the colas stems as they are full of leaves.


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## anomolies (May 31, 2010)

question, if you cut back to the 2nd node don't you lose a lot of growth.. how long to wait before it all grows back?

Also, how much do your plants yield on average (dry)?


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## DaveCoulier (May 31, 2010)

anomolies said:


> question, if you cut back to the 2nd node don't you lose a lot of growth.. how long to wait before it all grows back?
> 
> Also, how much do your plants yield on average (dry)?


The growth you lose is made in return by the 4 tops instead of one. Yeah you'll have to veg a little bit longer, but the extra yield is worth it. 

Asking how much someone yields is a useless question. There are too many variables that affect everyone's yield, with topping being only a small part of it.


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## anomolies (May 31, 2010)

well I just wanted to know what kind of yields are possible. 

Question:

The colas in LST / Fimmed plants don't develop as big/ tall like the ones UB has in this thread... why is that? Does vegging longer produce a bigger cola?


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## Tagh (May 31, 2010)

anomolies said:


> well I just wanted to know what kind of yields are possible.
> 
> Question:
> 
> The colas in LST / Fimmed plants don't develop as big/ tall like the ones UB has in this thread... why is that? Does vegging longer produce a bigger cola?


Vegging longer produces a larger plant in general, hence larger colas, more bud sights larger yields.


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## abefroman35 (May 31, 2010)

dude Uncle Ben... HOLY SHIT!!! you just blew my MIND!!! i can not believe that this is possible! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!!! SO MUCH! this has ANSWERED my prayers!!!

i am going to do a scrog from birth and have very limited spacing and was wondering how i should go about branching it... well i have DEFINITELY learned a new technique to branch my baby girls!!! TOPPING!!! and i believe ill go below the second node and get FOUR MAIN COLAS!!! thank you very much.

but seriously, thanks Uncle Ben. you have been a great help.


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## anomolies (May 31, 2010)

anyone know what happened to Highwaystar415's 3 plants that wouldn't produce bud?
thought it was very interesting but the search this thread function doesn't seem to be working


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## stowandgrow (Jun 1, 2010)

abefroman35 said:


> dude Uncle Ben... HOLY SHIT!!! you just blew my MIND!!! i can not believe that this is possible! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!!! SO MUCH! this has ANSWERED my prayers!!!
> 
> i am going to do a scrog from birth and have very limited spacing and was wondering how i should go about branching it... well i have DEFINITELY learned a new technique to branch my baby girls!!! TOPPING!!! and i believe ill go below the second node and get FOUR MAIN COLAS!!! thank you very much.
> 
> but seriously, thanks Uncle Ben. you have been a great help.


I could be mistaken, but I believe if you want to end up with 4 main colas, you'll want to top ABOVE the second true node set. If you top below the 2'nd main node set, you'll end up with 2 main colas.


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## abefroman35 (Jun 1, 2010)

stowandgrow said:


> I could be mistaken, but I believe if you want to end up with 4 main colas, you'll want to top ABOVE the second true node set. If you top below the 2'nd main node set, you'll end up with 2 main colas.


ok thank you so much stow. yeah when i wrote that i was still misunderstanding it a little bit, but after so more research -- haha and a bunch more on top of that -- i realized where to do it; i had to look at better more clear and specific pictures. im completely new entirely to horti/agriculture, so if i fuck up something because of my laziness and idoicracy, then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE correct me. seriously though, thanks for correcting me and telling me. ABOVE the 2nd nodes... not below.


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## overmyhead (Jun 4, 2010)

UB or anyone, what are your experiences with toppint clones. Ive got some Blackberry Kush cuts with 8-10 nodes (16-20 branches) and want to veg them for another two weeks then flower. cantopping them hurt them at all? If you top clones where do you do it? above fourth branch toreplicate two nodes on seedlings? Any downsides would be appreciated as I'd like to keep the height down a little and wont be able to get them under big light for a couple weeks. Thanks! Heres a pic of one, all the clutter at the bottom is b/c they were taken in flower.


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## jjfoo (Jun 4, 2010)

overmyhead,

I top my rooted clippings at the fourth node. They are not node sets like with seeds so they span a little more distance. I top them, then veg for a few weeks, then when I flower them they are really bushy and strong (no stakes or strings needed).

I usually let the rooted clipping start growing until it it is about 12 inches tall, then take the top half off.


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## overmyhead (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks friend. Have you tried any un topped to see if the yield's different? Also have you ever heard that some strains don't respond to it? THanks again.


jjfoo said:


> overmyhead,
> 
> I top my rooted clippings at the fourth node. They are not node sets like with seeds so they span a little more distance. I top them, then veg for a few weeks, then when I flower them they are really bushy and strong (no stakes or strings needed).
> 
> I usually let the rooted clipping start growing until it it is about 12 inches tall, then take the top half off.


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## SIRE (Jun 4, 2010)

Whats going on Dave gotta question during flowering can you cut branches not receiving much light? i know ur suppose to prune before hand but i slipped on my cindy99 and the branches r so unmanageable becuz i let them veg a little too long


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 4, 2010)

SIRE said:


> Whats going on Dave gotta question during flowering can you cut branches not receiving much light? i know ur suppose to prune before hand but i slipped on my cindy99 and the branches r so unmanageable becuz i let them veg a little too long



I personally love unmanageable plants with branches going in every direction , but the only time I remove any branches at all is when I am late into flowering, and its lost most of its leaves, and theres no chance of buds forming on that branch. This will most likely be near the bottom of your plant. Otherwise, I leave everything alone. They may not get alot of light down there, but the light they do get is still aiding photosynthesis.


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## SIRE (Jun 4, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> I personally love unmanageable plants with branches going in every direction , but the only time I remove any branches at all is when I am late into flowering, and its lost most of its leaves, and theres no chance of buds forming on that branch. This will most likely be near the bottom of your plant. Otherwise, I leave everything alone. They may not get alot of light down there, but the light they do get is still aiding photosynthesis.


have u ever grown a sativa hybrid indoors? and if so how do u go about handling the braches? im growing in a tent and its 3.3x3.3x6


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## SIRE (Jun 4, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> I personally love unmanageable plants with branches going in every direction , but the only time I remove any branches at all is when I am late into flowering, and its lost most of its leaves, and theres no chance of buds forming on that branch. This will most likely be near the bottom of your plant. Otherwise, I leave everything alone. They may not get alot of light down there, but the light they do get is still aiding photosynthesis.


i met to ask too is it normal to lose a lot of leaves during flowering?


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## jjfoo (Jun 5, 2010)

overmyhead,

I used to cut off all the lower limbs and top the very top. I've never not topped at all but plan to this cycle. I'n my limited experience when I top high the plant falls over. Out door plants get blown a lot and the stems are really strong. Indoor plants seem to need topping for me or I need to get strings to hold them up. Last week I took a plant that was vegged inside to my friends outside garden, his plants didn't move in the wind, mine was almost getting knocked down. Maybe I need to have my fan blow harder to make them stiffer. Still learning.


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 5, 2010)

SIRE said:


> have u ever grown a sativa hybrid indoors? and if so how do u go about handling the braches? im growing in a tent and its 3.3x3.3x6


Check out my grow journal in my signature to see some mainly sativa plants I just started flowering. Their branching is sick. I also have more space than you, so im not too worried if they get out of hand. I would suggest trying some lst if necessary. Ive started tying down my Skunk Hazes as they are reaching for the lights, and they still got a lot of stretching to do.



SIRE said:


> i met to ask too is it normal to lose a lot of leaves during flowering?


There are a lot of reasons why we lose leaves, but no its not normal. I tend to lose a fair amount of lower leaves at the start of flowering. I know lack of water lead to this being the main culprit this time around. The plants were using water at a faster rate than I realized and were becoming under watered. So, I gave them a good drenching after adding some mosquito dunks to my water. I needed to treat my gnat infestation, and get them hydrated. Well it was too much water, and the plants reacted by more leaf abscission. There are alot of causes of leaf loss. 

It could also be caused because you are not supplying enough nutrients to your plants. If you are having healthy looking leaves fall off its most likely a symptom of too much moisture, or not enough. If the leaves look deficient, and you know your not over-watering, or under-watering, then you may need to up your feedings.


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## SIRE (Jun 5, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Check out my grow journal in my signature to see some mainly sativa plants I just started flowering. Their branching is sick. I also have more space than you, so im not too worried if they get out of hand. I would suggest trying some lst if necessary. Ive started tying down my Skunk Hazes as they are reaching for the lights, and they still got a lot of stretching to do.
> 
> i tried to check u out but i dont no how can u send me the link? ur rite on two accounts the 1st was yeah i was under watering 2nd yeah my space is limited so hopefully me putin(the cindy99) in flowering at 6-10 inches tall will work out for me. also how long do people with potent good tasting product cure there dope for?


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 6, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> I finally got my friends digital camera, so here are some pics of lateral branching from the cotyledons. You can still see the shriveled up cotyledons in some of the pics. This is also a plant I accidentally lopped off one of its future main colas. Ooops.
> 
> Here are a couple of imageshack link in case anyone is having problems with thumbnails here.
> 
> ...


I have to take your word for it DC, no big deal. Tried 2 browsers and images won't load. I did load on URL image but can't tell much. Can't reply with a quote unless I hit the multi-quote, lot's of crippling here. Can't believe they haven't fixed this website. I'm beginning to think it was sold to someone that doesn't know what they're doing. Anyhoo, until next time.....

Grow hard,
UB


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## Danielsgb (Jun 6, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> I have to take your word for it DC, no big deal. Tried 2 browsers and images won't load. I did load on URL image but can't tell much. Can't reply with a quote unless I hit the multi-quote, lot's of crippling here. Can't believe they haven't fixed this website. I'm beginning to think it was sold to someone that doesn't know what they're doing. Anyhoo, until next time.....
> 
> Grow hard,
> UB


Uncle Ben,
I was glad to see the master pop in. Seems like less activity since 4/20. The FAQ still isn't fixed. The journal/blog crap seems pointless. I'd post pics of the 3 I topped thanks to you but it'd just piss you off not being able to see them. I'd think the admin. would get it fixed for you alone. Just my Two Cents.
Daniels


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 6, 2010)

SIRE said:


> DaveCoulier said:
> 
> 
> > Check out my grow journal in my signature to see some mainly sativa plants I just started flowering. Their branching is sick. I also have more space than you, so im not too worried if they get out of hand. I would suggest trying some lst if necessary. Ive started tying down my Skunk Hazes as they are reaching for the lights, and they still got a lot of stretching to do.
> ...


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 6, 2010)

Danielsgb said:


> Uncle Ben,
> I was glad to see the master pop in. Seems like less activity since 4/20. The FAQ still isn't fixed. The journal/blog crap seems pointless. I'd post pics of the 3 I topped thanks to you but it'd just piss you off not being able to see them. I'd think the admin. would get it fixed for you alone. Just my Two Cents.
> Daniels


In my opinion, RIU is toast. I'm all about done here.

Grow hard,
UB


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## gangaman (Jun 7, 2010)

This is BY FAR the best thread I've seen on the subject. Thank you Uncle Ben & Born2KillSpam for all the incredible knowledge. I just got some Master Kush seeds from Nirvana and I can't wait to try Uncle Ben's technique. 

Cheers


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## SIRE (Jun 7, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> SIRE said:
> 
> 
> > Ill pm you a link to my grow journal. Cindy99 isnt supposed to be a long lanky sativa, so I imagine you can get by flowering at that height. Regarding curing, Id give your buds a month of curing. Im also gonna include a great link about curing for you as well.
> ...


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## jjfoo (Jun 7, 2010)

UB, I am thinking of setting up a document management system. It is not a forum, but people can edit stuff easily and even colaborate on document creation. There are comments and things that permit discussion. I want to have a system where people serious about learning can share info and create and maintain documents. There will be no ads anywhere on the site. It wont generate money at all, just be a growing collection of documents.

I'd love for you to check it out if I get it set up. Where will you be hanging out if you leave RIU?

I would set it up this very moment if I felt safe running it on my own IP address. I live in CA and am registered with the state as a medical mj patient. I am somewhat paranoid about hosting a web site of this type. Anyone know how much legal liability there is in running a site like this? I just really want to see a non commercial site that is focused on facts and feel like I want to set it up.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 8, 2010)

jjfoo, I'd think real hard about that. Sounds good on the surface but there are alot of caveats to deal with. Cannabis sites are a dime a dozen and they come and go. I've been a member of at least 4 very large, very active sites, all defunct now. 

SIRE, harvest the big colas, put the plant back under the lights to bulk up the lower ones. Only works if you've retained lower leaves.

Good luck,
UB


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## SIRE (Jun 8, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> jjfoo, I'd think real hard about that. Sounds good on the surface but there are alot of caveats to deal with. Cannabis sites are a dime a dozen and they come and go. I've been a member of at least 4 very large, very active sites, all defunct now.
> 
> SIRE, harvest the big colas, put the plant back under the lights to bulk up the lower ones. Only works if you've retained lower leaves.
> 
> ...


Whats going on Unch! thanks for ur input. i dont wanna ask a silly question but would it b better if i harvest the branches or cut across the middle of the main stem


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## SIRE (Jun 8, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> jjfoo, I'd think real hard about that. Sounds good on the surface but there are alot of caveats to deal with. Cannabis sites are a dime a dozen and they come and go. I've been a member of at least 4 very large, very active sites, all defunct now.
> 
> SIRE, harvest the big colas, put the plant back under the lights to bulk up the lower ones. Only works if you've retained lower leaves.
> 
> ...


I'm referring to either harvesting individual branches or cutting across the main stem


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## jjfoo (Jun 8, 2010)

Are they defunct because they had legal issues?


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 8, 2010)

Harvest the chunky stuff.

Yeah, there's something fishy going on. Either RIU sold out to someone who doesn't know how to code or they may have legal issues and it's all over.


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## bjdarlo1234 (Jun 8, 2010)

hay man great info thank you thank you ,one question tho m8.how tall are your girls and how wide when ready to harvest ? reason i am asking is i got 2x2x2m tent.i normally i got 20 plants in 11 liter pots flood and drain system pepels,2x 600w hps and i normaly get anything from 1.5 to 3 oz per plant i only top once early.so your saying 10oz .please get back soon about the size what light power your using and soil or hydro. sorry for all the questions unk but i am exited if i can get close to what your doing then maybe i dont need so many plants get me? thanks again unk.


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## highbudtoker (Jun 8, 2010)

i topped my plant after 5 nodes 1 quarter inch above the fifth node and its growing just like picture above. i was only tryna get 2 new branches, but 4'll work!


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## bjdarlo1234 (Jun 9, 2010)

unk i need my answers please how big are they lol


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## Danielsgb (Jun 9, 2010)

bjdarlo1234 said:


> unk i need my answers please how big are they lol


I can tell you he doesn't do hydro, unless he started since 4/20 & isn't telling about it. I've seen him and Riddleme pass hydro ??'s to others. Read this Uncle Ben's gardening tweeks and pointers 
If you're bored. It might have some answers to what he'll say.

Daniels


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 9, 2010)

bjdarlo1234 said:


> hay man great info thank you thank you ,one question tho m8.how tall are your girls and how wide when ready to harvest ? reason i am asking is i got 2x2x2m tent.i normally i got 20 plants in 11 liter pots flood and drain system pepels,2x 600w hps and i normaly get anything from 1.5 to 3 oz per plant i only top once early.so your saying 10oz .please get back soon about the size what light power your using and soil or hydro. sorry for all the questions unk but i am exited if i can get close to what your doing then maybe i dont need so many plants get me? thanks again unk.


That's right, I don't do hydro. Your yield is dependent on how well you put all the cultural elements together. What I do should be immaterial, it's your garden. Sounds like you're doing fine.

Good luck,
UB


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## Danielsgb (Jun 9, 2010)

UB, I have two of the plants I topped with 4 Colas going in my 
 Two Queens Stuffed in a Fridge
About 2 weeks into 12/12 and looking great. Thanks for all the advice and tips. Wish you could see all the pics.*
Daniels
*


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 9, 2010)

Danielsgb said:


> UB, I have two of the plants I topped with 4 Colas going in my
> Two Queens Stuffed in a Fridge
> About 2 weeks into 12/12 and looking great. Thanks for all the advice and tips. Wish you could see all the pics.*
> Daniels
> *


I can see them fine. I can't open up thumbnails, not anymore. How did you get them to post full page? 

Plants are looking good!

Tio


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## Danielsgb (Jun 9, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> I can see them fine. I can't open up thumbnails, not anymore. How did you get them to post full page?
> 
> Plants are looking good!
> 
> Tio


Sweet. I'm thrilled you get the full page posts. I have been doing that lately so you can see a bunch of mine  
To post like that I use insert inline on the attachments when I upload the pics. Then on each pic, the pencil icon brings up position, and size, and some foreign language (maybe spanish) If I do EACH pic they aren't thumbnails. From now on I will make sure ALL pics are that way. I didn't know if it's annoying to some. Maybe that'll make this better for ya. 
Daniels


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## bjdarlo1234 (Jun 10, 2010)

the only thing i need to know unk is how big is you 10 oz plant hight and width.and how big your pots are the rest i can deal with bro . just thinking of les plants for same yeid man .anything on u tube that would give me a clue? up to you boss


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## Danielsgb (Jun 10, 2010)

Hey UB check this out if you're bored. The Hippie Gardener's New Yard Centerpiece
I was putting all the pics full page since the beginning. I guess my  mind was thinking ahead me on this one. I think using other plants to learn about horticulture is a key many can use to improve their Cannabis. Upcanning is easy for beginners to practice on. I see so many new growers with questions that can be learned easily. Later 
Daniels


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## bongmarley2009 (Jun 10, 2010)

I'll be working with 1 150w HPS in a 1.9'x1.9'x3.9' homebox xs tent. I want to grow 3 plants in 1.5-2 gallon pots and keep them short. What do you guys think the maximum height I should veg my plants to before throwing them into flower. I won't be using any CFL's for secondary lighting, so I believe it would be best to have them finish at 3 feet or less.


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 10, 2010)

bongmarley2009 said:


> I'll be working with 1 150w HPS in a 1.9'x1.9'x3.9' homebox xs tent. I want to grow 3 plants in 1.5-2 gallon pots and keep them short. What do you guys think the maximum height I should veg my plants to before throwing them into flower. I won't be using any CFL's for secondary lighting, so I believe it would be best to have them finish at 3 feet or less.


It depends mostly on your strain. Some will stretch 2x, while others go 3x, maybe more. Do some research on the strains you are interested in growing, and you should be able to figure out how much wiggle room you'll have.


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## bongmarley2009 (Jun 10, 2010)

I'll be growing CH9 Jack which according to the breeder, are easy to keep short. I'm just not sure how far down a 150w HPS can penetrate. I think that I'll shoot for plants that finish in between 2 and 3 feet.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 10, 2010)

Danielsgb said:


> Hey UB check this out if you're bored. The Hippie Gardener's New Yard Centerpiece
> I was putting all the pics full page since the beginning. I guess my  mind was thinking ahead me on this one. I think using other plants to learn about horticulture is a key many can use to improve their Cannabis. Upcanning is easy for beginners to practice on. I see so many new growers with questions that can be learned easily. Later
> Daniels


Pretty cool, thanks for sharing. It's all about horticulture.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 10, 2010)

bjdarlo1234 said:


> the only thing i need to know unk is how big is you 10 oz plant hight and width.and how big your pots are the rest i can deal with bro . just thinking of les plants for same yeid man .anything on u tube that would give me a clue? up to you boss


Amigo, your garden is yours. I'm not here to teach Gardening 101. 

Good luck,
UB


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## gangaman (Jun 11, 2010)

This may have been previously addressed, but the technique only works if the opposing internodes are directly across from each other. What can you do if the bottom nodes on the clones are staggered? 

Thanks


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## gorocker (Jun 11, 2010)

Uncle Ben. great post, has been a good mornings read!! +rep for def!

I have limited floor space - approx 1sq ft per plant. I'm now thinking that i shouldn't top my plants because there's not enough room for more colas, just 1 big one every Sq ft. 

Does that sound right? or could i get away with more?

Thanks my man!


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 11, 2010)

gangaman said:


> This may have been previously addressed, but the technique only works if the opposing internodes are directly across from each other. What can you do if the bottom nodes on the clones are staggered?
> 
> Thanks


Tie down your upper branches to allow your lower branches to catch up, so that you can get 4 equal colas. 



gorocker said:


> Uncle Ben. great post, has been a good mornings read!! +rep for def!
> 
> I have limited floor space - approx 1sq ft per plant. I'm now thinking that i shouldn't top my plants because there's not enough room for more colas, just 1 big one every Sq ft.
> 
> ...


I flowered 6 plants in 5 square feet(3 gallon pots for half of them), and they were all topped. It was a tight fit, but it can be done.


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## rzza (Jun 11, 2010)

dave, uncle...i have a question.

i read this thread in march and i decided to give a go. i topped above the first node on 4 plants, second node on 4 plants, and 4 plants i tried different things ie; fim, top above 7th node, 5th node, supercropped.

this was done on various strains, qwerkle, ww, blue widow, sour bubble. 

the ones i topped low (first and second nodes) have the smallest yield. its quite depressing to see actually. 

my question is, what do you think i have done wrong? basically its like this, topped above node two-4 tops (not colas, same as if i didnt top. just small tops). topped above 7th node-14 tops. 

i understand the 'dominant cola' idea but i didnt get these. i was looking to get something like this ...


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 11, 2010)

What type of sample size are we talking here? Did you do all the different types of topping and training to say 6 plants of a strain, or did you top one strain, then lst the next, and fim the third, etc. 

Lets not forget there are alot of other variables that will influence your yield. Topping alone will not guarantee a large yield. Also, UB has been growing plants alot longer than many of us have been alive, so he knows how to get the very best out of them. Hoping to replicate what is in that picture is well a wet dream for many of us. 

When I tried topping vs not topping on my Nirvana WW, the topped ones all had buds equally comparable to the untopped ones, and a greater yield, so I do believe it works. Id say give it another go using clones from the same mother and try to eliminate as many variables as possible if you are still unsure about topping for 4 colas.


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## Brick Top (Jun 11, 2010)

bongmarley2009 said:


> I'll be working with 1 150w HPS in a 1.9'x1.9'x3.9' homebox xs tent. I want to grow 3 plants in 1.5-2 gallon pots and keep them short. What do you guys think the maximum height I should veg my plants to before throwing them into flower. I won't be using any CFL's for secondary lighting, so I believe it would be best to have them finish at 3 feet or less.



I am curious about a thing or two. If I understand things correctly you have 3' 9" to grow in, three feet nine inches, and you said you want your plants to finish at 3 feet or less. How thin will your lighting be and how short of pots will you be growing in? If your plants finish at 3' that will leave you only nine inches for your lights and your pots AND the distance between the tops of your plants and your light that is needed to keep you from baking your plants. 

Another puzzler is how you will grow plants up to 3" tall with a light that will penetrate roughly about a foot to a foot and a few inches? The lower portion of your plants will be barren and just above that will be popcorn and then small buds, a few medium ones and then your colas. About the top quarter of each plant will produce decent, but that's about all. So why veg your plants longer than it will make sense to? 

You will outgrow your lighting and get little to nothing for it and only extend your overall length of time from planting to harvest by adding the veg time that will not pay you back with bud. 

Did I understand you incorrectly and the 3' 9" is actual usable growing height or is that overall height? If it is total overall height do you know what your actual usable height will be with whatever light system you decide on? Do you know how to figure total usable height?

Even if the 3' 9" is usable growing height you will not have adequate light penetration to use it all if you use a 150-watt HID grow light.


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## Brick Top (Jun 11, 2010)

More people should stop questioning Uncle Ben and just accept that what he is saying is based in proven fact and not just another 'gee I think I might have a good idea here' sort of thing like most shared grower information seems to be around here. 

Plants are really not all that understood by most herb growers. They have something of a &#8216;brain&#8217; of their own and they will respond to the environment in the soil, to the environment in the air and to the environment in the plant. But hormones, auxin, has override power over the entire plant. 

Auxin is the main regulating hormone in plant growth. Auxin has a huge number of advisors, messengers and &#8220;gophers.&#8221; There are so many that even today they are not all completely understand. Main ones like ABA, Gibberellin, Cytokinin, Ethylene are pretty much understood, but not all. There are a huge number of other molecules and minerals that have to be available for growth before auxin can have its regulating effect. But, Auxin responds to the whole host of advisors and then regulates growth depending on the information it receives.

When plants are topped, as Uncle Ben said initially, and likely needed to repeat numerous times since, you are toying with hormones, with auxin. When done in a certain way a plant will respond in a certain way and when done differently it will respond in a different way. Plant environment can effect/cause some variance but as long as conditions/environment are good far more times than not it will be minor.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 11, 2010)

rzza said:


> dave, uncle...i have a question.
> 
> i read this thread in march and i decided to give a go. i topped above the first node on 4 plants, second node on 4 plants, and 4 plants i tried different things ie; fim, top above 7th node, 5th node, supercropped.
> 
> ...


Like the fellas said, could be many factors - genetics, your culture, etc. You need to choose what works best for you, I only started this thread to give you another choice. You're probably bouncing around based on what you've seen or read in these forums rather than taking into consideration botany and your particular setup. This growing thingie is based on the fact that the end result is a summation of the parts.

Like I said before, the intent is to open up the plant in a vase like form for better light penetration. If you've never grown a fruit tree like a peach or apple, then you may not understand the particular training principles standard to that culture. Read the basics of how to TRAIN a fruit tree, and you will. BT reiterated hormonal responses, that's what it's all about.

If you didn't get more than one dominant cola after topping, then you topped at the wrong spot, had alternate branching, whatever. Were they clones or seedlings?

Good luck,
UB


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 11, 2010)

Since this is a topping thread, and everyone loves pictures, and now seems like a great time for pics.. I present to you some of my outdoor plants. One has 2 main colas, 3 on another, and 3.5-4? on some. Nothing is guaranteed, but I much prefer this to not topping, or even lst'ing. Ive already accidentally topped two plants when lst'ing. Not worth the frustration, so Ill stick with this.


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## Ganja Geek (Jun 11, 2010)

Hey their Ben do u think you can help answer a few questions of mine? I want to top my plants to stop them from growing over our 8ft fence without negatively effecting yield. They are 82 days old sexed using 12/12. Then revegged all under a 1000 MH. I planted them outdoors 4 weeks ago. They have about 18 to 20 nodes and are about 2ft tall. Here's a pic of my Red Dragon. I would like to use the top cuttings for clones. Could you tell me how to go about it and what I might exspect if I top at this stage? Your input would be appreciated thank you.


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## bongmarley2009 (Jun 12, 2010)

Brick Top said:


> I am curious about a thing or two. If I understand things correctly you have 3' 9" to grow in, three feet nine inches, and you said you want your plants to finish at 3 feet or less. How thin will your lighting be and how short of pots will you be growing in? If your plants finish at 3' that will leave you only nine inches for your lights and your pots AND the distance between the tops of your plants and your light that is needed to keep you from baking your plants.
> 
> *My tent is 3 feet 9 inches tall and I completely forgot to take space the light and carbon filter will be taking up into consideration.*
> 
> ...


*Big thanks for your input. I don't want to low stress train or scrog, so if I am not going to get good results with implementing topping and having really short plants, I might just get a digital 250w. *


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## rzza (Jun 12, 2010)

uncleben, thanks for the response. they were from seed. i took cuttings tho and those look alot better this time around. also topped low, then multiple times after that.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 12, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Since this is a topping thread, and everyone loves pictures, and now seems like a great time for pics.. I present to you some of my outdoor plants. One has 2 main colas, 3 on another, and 3.5-4? on some. Nothing is guaranteed, but I much prefer this to not topping, or even lst'ing. Ive already accidentally topped two plants when lst'ing. Not worth the frustration, so Ill stick with this.
> 
> View attachment 987879View attachment 987884View attachment 987885View attachment 987903


Looking good! I still need to get mine out into the field. Timing is right, solstice is soon. 



Ganja Geek said:


> Hey their Ben do u think you can help answer a few questions of mine? I want to top my plants to stop them from growing over our 8ft fence without negatively effecting yield. They are 82 days old sexed using 12/12. Then revegged all under a 1000 MH. I planted them outdoors 4 weeks ago. They have about 18 to 20 nodes and are about 2ft tall. Here's a pic of my Red Dragon. I would like to use the top cuttings for clones. Could you tell me how to go about it and what I might exspect if I top at this stage? Your input would be appreciated thank you.


Rooting a cutting is easy if you use a decent cloning agent and keep the RH almost 100%. If you top, you'll get branching.


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## PinchedNerve (Jun 12, 2010)

Hello there I was wondering what you meant by First or Second "TRUE" node, thenks PN.


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## rzza (Jun 12, 2010)

PinchedNerve said:


> Hello there I was wondering what you meant by First or Second "TRUE" node, thenks PN.


uh oh LOL ...


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## Danielsgb (Jun 12, 2010)

PinchedNerve said:


> Hello there I was wondering what you meant by First or Second "TRUE" node, thenks PN.


it truely looks like a pot leaf. start looking backwards.
Daniels


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## PinchedNerve (Jun 12, 2010)

rzza- you couln't just answer the question? and thank you D for actually answering me instead of bein to cool.


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## Danielsgb (Jun 12, 2010)

It's been asked *way* too many times, everyone is getting tired of it. UB refuses anymore


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## mindphuk (Jun 12, 2010)

PinchedNerve said:


> rzza- you couln't just answer the question? and thank you D for actually answering me instead of bein to cool.


 PinchedNerve, you couldn't just RTFM?


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## Danielsgb (Jun 12, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> PinchedNerve, you couldn't just RTFM?


Glad I googled it, instead of asking. Woulda really looked dumb then, huh PN


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## whiteflour (Jun 12, 2010)

lol I'll smoke to that one!


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## PinchedNerve (Jun 12, 2010)

mindphuk- no i couldn't. I don't beleive I could look dumb on a forum. Thanks though.


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## mindphuk (Jun 13, 2010)

PinchedNerve said:


> mindphuk- no i couldn't. I don't beleive I could look dumb on a forum. Thanks though.


 Come on man, I'm just bustin' your balls. We all do stupid things on forums on occasion, I know I do (I blame the kush ) This is just one that seems to be a pet peeve of many, especial UB, and I can hardly blame him. 

Welcome to the thread.


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## PinchedNerve (Jun 13, 2010)

Thank you for the welcoming, I understand, It twas a quick question cause I am scared of choppers and would like to keep my plant shorter without affecting yeild to much, but I get it now and I have a bit more confidence now that my overly asked question was answered. 
P.S. I don't think anyones balls like being busted.


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## riddleme (Jun 13, 2010)

Even though it takes awhile to read these long threads it is absolutely worth it as they are filled with awesome info, I have actually read this one twice. When those of us that take the time to put up solid info and answer questions have someone read the whole thread we are most happy to help because we appreciate the initiative it takes, lets us know your serious about learning that your soaking up info.

I spent around 20 hours doing research in the last few weeks and 6 hours yesterday typing it all up to share, and it is info that every single person here wants because I proved a hippie trick to be true, but alas only about 1% of the members will read it because I buried it deep in one of my long threads, my way of rewarding those with due diligence


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## Danielsgb (Jun 13, 2010)

Start going backwards till you see that exact ?, keep at it and you'll find it many times. Nobody likes a ball busting, but I'm surprised some more that follow this one didn't give you shit too. My comment on looking dumb was about RTFM I didn't recognize. Sometimes 2 minutes there will answer a ? (and google doesn't have us smart-asses to comment) Good Luck
Daniels


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 13, 2010)

PinchedNerve said:


> Hello there I was wondering what you meant by First or Second "TRUE" node, thenks PN.


You've got to be shittin' me.

I blame _some_ of the lazy lurking behavior, the redundant questions on RIU's editing protocol. If the thread starter could edit his thread then he could include a FAQ on the first page. By the way things are going and looking around here, I'd say RIU is headed for the graveyard. You guys that are doing comprehensive journals might not want to waste your time, or at least don't use RIU as a holding tank for your images. Case in point, an admin at a once very active and popular site which is now tits up, Planet Ganja, never saved his photos to his hard drive, thinking his good ol buddy and co-hort admin/owner (Gadabout) would never pull the plug leaving him and the membership hanging. It happens people. And what's sick is about 9 months prior Gadabout does this dishonest and whiney "we need donations to keep us alive" drive, takes the money and runs. 

Sorry for the rant, just giving some of the noobs a heads up. I hope I'm wrong.

UB


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## Ganja Geek (Jun 13, 2010)

Dear Uncle Ben,
The questions that I had asked on my prior reply were pertaining more to what would happen to my plants if I topped at this stage?thanks for your replys,
ganja geek


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## Murfy (Jun 14, 2010)

what i find is the more i read and do, the less i realize i know, and all the more questions surface; advanced that is


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## Porkules (Jun 16, 2010)

Hi All,

Can someone please tell me if this would be the correct place to top this plant? Sorry to ask two unrelated questions, but what is going on with the leaves? There is plenty of inner growth sprouting every day. About 2 weeks old, aerogarden grow, Short Rider, maybe 2.5" tall, ph 6.0, more than enough light. Incredibly small amount of nutes (around an 1/8 or less). 

thanks!


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 16, 2010)

Yes, that is the correct spot. It looks like you may want to back off the nutes a touch more. You've got a bit of nute burn at the tips.


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## Porkules (Jun 16, 2010)

Thanks Dave. How do I tell whether it is nute burn, rather than a deficiency? I've been reading and reading and can't decide which one it is...

I should also mention that heat could definitely be an issue. I'm at about 90-92 constantly (water 85ish) Not much I can do about it either...

thanks again


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## meathook666 (Jun 16, 2010)

You can tell it bro. First off the leaves would look different if they are affected by nute burn or deficiency. Google it. Second is what you know ie. what your soil consists of and use of nutrients. You get what you put in.


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## connorwhite12 (Jun 16, 2010)

Can you do this if you are also LST'ing?


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 16, 2010)

Porkules said:


> Thanks Dave. How do I tell whether it is nute burn, rather than a deficiency? I've been reading and reading and can't decide which one it is...
> 
> I should also mention that heat could definitely be an issue. I'm at about 90-92 constantly (water 85ish) Not much I can do about it either...
> 
> thanks again


 Nute burn or Leaf Scorch typically manifests itself at the tips/edges. Very minor burn will cause it to become a pale yellow. As the burns become more severe, you get browning of tips/edges and it progresses from there, and it becomes crinkly(dead). Google Leaf Scorch, and check out some pictures of it. This is what happens when you over apply nutrients. Water is drawn out of the leaves causing the scorching, and excessive nutes will also kill off your root hairs/roots preventing water from being absorbed so easily and again resulting in leaf scorch.


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## djbthunder (Jun 16, 2010)

how long after the cut does the plant stay in veg stage ? or induce flowering after the cut


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 16, 2010)

djbthunder said:


> how long after the cut does the plant stay in veg stage ? or induce flowering after the cut


As long as you wish it to. Keep it under veg for a period of at least two weeks to maximize your yield. Flowering right after topping would be wasteful of what could be.


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## Wondering Star (Jun 16, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> That means that it is the least likely node to receive redirected ho moans. I'm also trying to explain plant hormonal responses - the ones at the top receive hormones that induce output the first. Top a plant, any kind of a plant, and it will induce dormant bud output starting with the top down.
> 
> By allowing the plant to get a good start, which occurs with some leaf material from say......6 nodes (opposing leafsets) as opposed to 2, you're just giving it a better jump-start. You can use the cutting as a clone.
> 
> ...


UB, awesome thread!

When you say no special advantage to doing 2 colas rather than 4, does this apply vice versa too? Why do you choose to do 4 instead of 2? just cos it looks cooler


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## sixstring2112 (Jun 17, 2010)

This one just got the chop, and i really liked the 2 main colas that it produced using uncle bens method. master kush with a 9 week veg.


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## Ganja Geek (Jun 17, 2010)

What will happen if I top a 2ft plant at the 16th or 18th node?


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## Wondering Star (Jun 17, 2010)

Ganja Geek said:


> What will happen if I top a 2ft plant at the 16th or 18th node?


From what i have learnt, if you top at the 16th or 18th node, the auxins of the plant [these are some form of growth hormone] will be redistributed to the lower nodes, but it could be any of the 14 or so nodes below. You will get colas but one of them will be the main cola.

It's not the same as topping at either the first node for two main colas or the second node for four main colas... as with this method you ensure the number of main colas each time is two or four. Thats because the auxins go to directly the nodes below.

That is how I understand it


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## robert 14617 (Jun 18, 2010)

topping to get 4 worked out fine for my grow


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## Murfy (Jun 18, 2010)

daaammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!

after you harvest you could make a walkin stick outta that


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## plebean (Jun 20, 2010)

*QUESTION:* Can I top if nodes #one and/or #two have dropped their leaves and have *little to no leaf matter*? It seems that it would look like a bare stem sticking out of the ground.


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 20, 2010)

sixstring2112 said:


> This one just got the chop, and i really liked the 2 main colas that it produced using uncle bens method. master kush with a 9 week veg.


Thats one beautiful plant. How much did she yield?


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## sixstring2112 (Jun 21, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Thats one beautiful plant. How much did she yield?


around 6-3/4 oz. dry, i'm not 100% on the 3/4 because i smoked most of that when she was hanging


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## potpimp (Jun 22, 2010)

Dave, I need your help brother. I have one Church and it's looking like hell. I've given her pure N and it's only seeming to get worse. I have watered / not watered / nuted / left it alone and it's still losing all it's leaves. I'm posting a pic for you. I "read" the plant as needing N, but it's not responding positively to the N. Some of my kushes are doing the same thing. Thanks so much and I'm sorry for posting in your thread Uncle Ben, but this is really important.


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 22, 2010)

Planting outdoors in soil brings problems I haven't experienced. There are rodents that can damage root systems. Im not sure how the symptoms manifest themselves though.

Did you plant directly into the native soil? Maybe the ph isn't quite right. I dont quite know to be honest.


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## potpimp (Jun 22, 2010)

They were transplanted from 1 & 2 gallon pots into the ground. I did dig extra deep and put some of the good soil mix in there and around it afterward. I hated the black "circle" so I topped it off with about an inch of "dirt" from around the plant to make it blend in more. I just went out and checked the pH and it was about 7 when I mixed it with my 7.4 tap water. You think maybe I should add some acid to my water when hand watering?


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 22, 2010)

potpimp said:


> They were transplanted from 1 & 2 gallon pots into the ground. I did dig extra deep and put some of the good soil mix in there and around it afterward. I hated the black "circle" so I topped it off with about an inch of "dirt" from around the plant to make it blend in more. I just went out and checked the pH and it was about 7 when I mixed it with my 7.4 tap water. You think maybe I should add some acid to my water when hand watering?


7 wouldn't cause any problems, so I dont see that as the problem. Im stumped as to what it could be. I can only guess something is wrong with the root system and its preventing nutrients from being absorbed.


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## Kirashiro (Jun 22, 2010)

potpimp said:


> Dave, I need your help brother. I have one Church and it's looking like hell. I've given her pure N and it's only seeming to get worse. I have watered / not watered / nuted / left it alone and it's still losing all it's leaves. I'm posting a pic for you. I "read" the plant as needing N, but it's not responding positively to the N. Some of my kushes are doing the same thing. Thanks so much and I'm sorry for posting in your thread Uncle Ben, but this is really important.



Could be grubs gettin at your roots


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## potpimp (Jun 22, 2010)

It could be. I'll whip up some poison to douche them with tomorrow.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 22, 2010)

Here are 2 that I used Uncle Bens method on. Only difference is I take off the first set of bottom branches 1 week before applying 4 top method.


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## Pipe Dream (Jun 22, 2010)

Ganja Geek said:


> Dear Uncle Ben,
> The questions that I had asked on my prior reply were pertaining more to what would happen to my plants if I topped at this stage?thanks for your replys,
> ganja geek


ive aqsked this question and he did the same thing to me just blew me off and told me to read the beginning of the thread. I had already done that b4 I asked the ? and the answer is anyones guess I suppose. I did it the way I thought it would be done and none of the plants gave me 4 dominant colas and I saw a guy who did it the other way that I thought was wrong and he didn't get 4 main colas either. We both got 2 dominant colas and 2 smaller colas. If this site does fail because people not helping people I think it's ironic that he is calling out every one else out for not being helpful. Expect him to make you feel like a retard for wanting to try this.


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## Murfy (Jun 23, 2010)

did you clone from a seedling or a clone?-

alteranting nodes will produce different results, but their are techniques to combat this, do the research, or the experiment(it's research), it's the only way to understand your garden, if this is your first grow, you have along way to go to get results like ben anyway


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## MedUseMeg (Jun 23, 2010)

I always thought "topping" meant pinching the new leaf growth out of the top of the plant but after reading all this info I'm thinking I'm very wrong. I've "pinched" them all (and not just on top either but also side branches) and then I went and cut one like I saw from Uncle Ben. Have I messed up everything?


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## researchkitty (Jun 23, 2010)

MedUseMeg said:


> I always thought "topping" meant pinching the new leaf growth out of the top of the plant but after reading all this info I'm thinking I'm very wrong. I've "pinched" them all (and not just on top either but also side branches) and then I went and cut one like I saw from Uncle Ben. Have I messed up everything?


probably. Without a photo nobody can tell their ass from their mouths, so post a picture if you want a plant opinion.


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## Gr33nCrack (Jun 23, 2010)

I don't get what is so hard about topping, and whats the difference between uncle ben's technique and regular fimming. Topping=2 tops Fimming=4 or more. I simply cut the 6th node just as the leaves begin appearing, only about a quarter of an inch. As for fimming you would wait til the leaves are out and snip around 50% of the growth.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 23, 2010)

The difference is when the hormones flow they flow evenly into 4 stalks (uncle Bens) and Fiming normally is not so evenly done. Normally you have many branches below the fim.


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## MedUseMeg (Jun 23, 2010)

researchkitty said:


> probably. Without a photo nobody can tell their ass from their mouths, so post a picture if you want a plant opinion.


 
IF I'd had that ability I would have done so. Your patience and understanding is underwhelming


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## Danielsgb (Jun 23, 2010)

MedUseMeg said:


> IF I'd had that ability I would have done so. Your patience and understanding is underwhelming


 Well Meg, I can see that your brunette hair is in need of styling, maybe a perm. I know from the wealth of info you've provided. I also know that you've 'messed up everything' with that attitude.
Daniels


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## riddleme (Jun 23, 2010)

MedUseMeg said:


> IF I'd had that ability I would have done so. Your patience and understanding is underwhelming


would have said the same thing if she hadn't, it is hell to properly advise anyone without pic's, has nothing to do with patience or understanding, I have lots


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## ElectricPineapple (Jun 23, 2010)

wow meg, you are pissing off some RIU "heavyweights" right now. i think i read that term in another thread. someone calling the more knowledgeable elite members heavyweights. i though it was clever and pretty accurate  

and on this site, photos are key. so get some photos and we can try and help but with that attitude, good luck


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 24, 2010)

Gr33nCrack said:


> .....and whats the difference between uncle ben's technique and regular fimming.


1. Type of output
2. Reliability

......as already mentioned.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 24, 2010)

potpimp said:


> Dave, I need your help brother. I have one Church and it's looking like hell. I've given her pure N and it's only seeming to get worse. I have watered / not watered / nuted / left it alone and it's still losing all it's leaves. I'm posting a pic for you. I "read" the plant as needing N, but it's not responding positively to the N. Some of my kushes are doing the same thing. Thanks so much and I'm sorry for posting in your thread Uncle Ben, but this is really important.


What is "pure N"? What is the native soil like, the structure? If very heavy clay, did you fracture the sides and bottom of the hole? Did you transplant deep (you should have). A plant likes stability, light but constant salts, water, light. You're stressing it out by flipping around with this and that, which shows up as leaf drop. By not making a correct diagnosis and understanding plant requirements, you have only made matters worse.

BTW guys, I have a Gardening tweeks thread where issues like this could go. I've finally got some degree of stability posting by changing browsers.

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 24, 2010)

Pipe Dream said:


> ive aqsked this question and he did the same thing to me just blew me off and told me to read the beginning of the thread. I had already done that b4 I asked the ? and the answer is anyones guess I suppose. I did it the way I thought it would be done and none of the plants gave me 4 dominant colas and I saw a guy who did it the other way that I thought was wrong and he didn't get 4 main colas either. We both got 2 dominant colas and 2 smaller colas. If this site does fail because people not helping people I think it's ironic that he is calling out every one else out for not being helpful. Expect him to make you feel like a retard for wanting to try this.


Look fellas, I dont' have a crystal ball. Try it and see. Just when you think you have a handle on plant responses, you get different results. If you have a 5' tall plant still in veg and you top above the 2nd node, then the plant should respond with dominant colas, HOWEVER, by then the plant will have put out output in those areas long before, so, your mileage may vary. 

IOW, there is a reason why I SAID ON THE FIRST PAGE TO WAIT UNTIL YOU GET 5 OR 6 NODES AND THEN TOP ABOVE THE FIRST OR SECOND.

I'm just tired of belaboring the points and having to hand hold some of you noobs who want to be told what to do, what to expect as opposed to trying to understand what makes a plant tick.....which was the purpose of this thread.

UB


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## riddleme (Jun 24, 2010)

Glad you got things fixed (somewhat) great to have you back!!!!!!!!


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 24, 2010)

riddleme said:


> Glad you got things fixed (somewhat) great to have you back!!!!!!!!


Thanks. Still can't use my favorite browser any more. I guess Mr. Bill's IE will have to do for now.


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## ElectricPineapple (Jun 24, 2010)

i honestly dont get how they cant understand your first post. all they need to do is find out what a TRUE node is, which you can google and wiki will tell you, then just top above the second node when you have 5-6 nodes. i did it and the first time, all but one got 4 dom colas and i think do to my space issues in veg, caused the other cola to not become dominant and stayed short. its not a hard concept to get. they just wont do the little bit extra research on the points they dont understand


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## mindphuk (Jun 24, 2010)

ElectricPineapple said:


> i honestly dont get how they cant understand your first post. all they need to do is find out what a TRUE node is, which you can google and wiki will tell you, then just top above the second node when you have 5-6 nodes. i did it and the first time, all but one got 4 dom colas and i think do to my space issues in veg, caused the other cola to not become dominant and stayed short. its not a hard concept to get. they just wont do the little bit extra research on the points they dont understand


 They also should take note that this is posted in _*Advanced *_Marijuana Cultivation.


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## ElectricPineapple (Jun 24, 2010)

another good point. if you cant understand basic botany, then you shouldnt be in this category


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## anomolies (Jun 24, 2010)

hmm.. I don't get it though.. Why top to the 2nd node and lose a week or more of growth... Doesn't fimming produce the same results? Or do you not get giant colas from fimming?


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 24, 2010)

anomolies said:


> hmm.. I don't get it though.. Why top to the 2nd node and lose a week or more of growth... Doesn't fimming produce the same results? Or do you not get giant colas from fimming?


This is from Fimming ~


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## jjfoo (Jun 24, 2010)

It isn't a matter of which produces the most, it is more of a style thing. There comes a point where too many colas can dilute things.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 24, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> It isn't a matter of which produces the most, it is more of a style thing. There comes a point where too many colas can dilute things.


In what World????


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## anomolies (Jun 24, 2010)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> In what World????


yea in what world?

So which exactly produces more?


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 24, 2010)

anomolies said:


> yea in what world?
> 
> So which exactly produces more?


 The better Grower....


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## sixstring2112 (Jun 25, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> It isn't a matter of which produces the most, it is more of a style thing. There comes a point where too many colas can dilute things.


I hear that, this one is diluted with sticky colas. all the info you need is on the first couple pages, if you dont get it go back to the nubie threads. these are the last pics of this girl, i'm gunna chop it in 20 mins peace.


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## potpimp (Jun 25, 2010)

Please... tell me you're kidding! Just fricking say it!!


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## HDB (Jun 25, 2010)

Please forgive my ignorance, even though I wiki'd and I believe I know what a "node" is, I really couldn't find for sure where the first "true" node is. Is the first node the single fingered leafs after the cats? or is that considered the same node? Just really need clarification what the heck the first true node is, hehe.. Thanks in advance peeps..


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## meathook666 (Jun 25, 2010)

It's the one above cotyledons bro.


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## anomolies (Jun 25, 2010)

sixstring2112 said:


> I hear that, this one is diluted with sticky colas. all the info you need is on the first couple pages, if you dont get it go back to the nubie threads. these are the last pics of this girl, i'm gunna chop it in 20 mins peace.


that's from topping?


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## HDB (Jun 25, 2010)

meathook666 said:


> It's the one above cotyledons bro.


Ok, see I have a few plants that the cats are well below the single finger leaved node, maybe 1/2 nch, had a little stretching before I caught it and moved light closer, and a couple plants that the single fingered leaf node is almost comin out of the same spot the cats are. This is why Im confused, or it may be the WW from last batch, I don't know. lol


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## whiteflour (Jun 25, 2010)

ANY node with serrated fan leaf or branch attached is a node. The area where the cotyledons attach will eventually grow over. It just looks like a node, it's a false node.


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## HDB (Jun 25, 2010)

whiteflour said:


> ANY node with serrated fan leaf or branch attached is a node. The area where the cotyledons attach will eventually grow over. It just looks like a node, it's a false node.


That is clarification, thank you very much all.


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## Rust1d (Jun 28, 2010)

Here's my experience with this topping technique and something I learned by accident. I started 20 seeds following the directions on Fox Farm's nutrients. I planted in Natural Guard Organic soiless mix similar to Sunshine #4. The only things I added to the mix were rock dust and some worm castings. I watered using the Big Bloom only per instructions. I don't do anything to the seeds, just stick them in the mix. Well only half sprouted and they were pretty weak looking and starving to death. I left the ones that sprouted under flouros until the 5th node and then topped. Unfortunately they also got a little dried out due to being away for a few days. In the photo they are the group on the right. (Pic is under hps light so they look a little yellow)


I fed them full strength big bloom and grow big after that to get them back on track. They have remained severely stunted ever since. 

For kicks I started 10 more seeds and instead of giving just big bloom I watered with the same full strength grow big and big bloom I fed the others before the seeds even popped. I also put them under a 1000 w hps instead of flouros from day one. The difference in size is just incredible! In the photo they are the 9 on the left side and have been going for about 2 weeks (not topped yet) while the ones one the right are about a month old (topped @ second node).

The first set of leaves on the 1st node were tiny on the plants on the right maybe half inch while the plants on the left had about 2" first node leaves. What has amazed me the most is how stunted the original 9 remained. It showed me how important getting them started correctly impacts their future development.

I also have a picture of what I think would be considered a dormant bud site or "false node" on a seedling. UB can correct me of wrong.


I write all of this to show people that you can do things in a simple way and still end up with great results. I didn't soak seeds, put them in paper towels, use domes, use flouros or anything special. Just put them in the mix and watered with nutrients and put them under a high powered hps light. 

Thanks UB for the great thread I'm looking forward to seeing how these turn out.


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## alex420cali (Jun 29, 2010)

i get many tops and I never TOP the plant. I may supercrop once but sometimes I don't even do that.

check out my plant
no fimming
no topping
no supercropping
no lst
veg was 4 weeks from seed with Super Foliage Spray
strain greenhouse AMS
Flowering with Roots Organics


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 29, 2010)

Very Nice. But how does a plant canopy like that with out some help ? LSTed?


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## alex420cali (Jun 30, 2010)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Very Nice. But how does a plant canopy like that with out some help ? LSTed?


no lst either. 
most of my plants tend to grow that way now. I start them with Super Foliage Spray which makes them bushy the first 2-3 weeks veg. So for the time being I won't be doing anything to get full canopy's.


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## stescugeorge (Jun 30, 2010)

Is it ok to top the Trainwreck to get 4 main colas? Thanks!


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 30, 2010)

stescugeorge said:


> Is it ok to top the Trainwreck to get 4 main colas? Thanks!


Never grown it, but Ive never had any strains that react negatively to topping. Some will respond quicker than others, but for the most part, I usually dont see any slow downs in growth that would be a cause for concern. I had an early Durban that was a bit slow to respond after topping, but if you look in my grow journal you can check it now. Its the one whose two tops look like a V.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 30, 2010)

Many tops is good but having 4 branches from the meristem has it merits, and that is what where after. Dividing the hormones into 4 equal parts, from there you can build your many tops and each branch will have for the most part equal amount of hormnes. Hormones go straight up faster than they go left right left right, that is why we get a large cola off the top.


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## Gardener 09 (Jun 30, 2010)

i just topped one of my clones yesterday to see how it would do, it already has 2 branches coming off the main steam at the very bottom. each has like 4 sets of leaves. and 4 more branches developing out of the nodes and had 5 good fan leaves before the topping and the plant is trained to grow sideways and then up were the last of the 5 leaves is, think was ready? i know its hard without pics. sorry, im working on it.


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## theceo13 (Jun 30, 2010)

after i top my plants, how long should i wait before transplanting into a bigger pot? or is it better to transplant before you top?


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## jayganja78 (Jun 30, 2010)

well i toped mine befor i potted them m8 and for me i would say befor i have and sucsess and the r very nice try both m8 just to see for your self its not gonner hurt is it peace gl


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 1, 2010)

I would give them a week, so either way.


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## daviaces (Jul 1, 2010)

hi folks great thread
im new to this so sorry if i ask the obvious ,i am very keen to try this method of topping on my 1st plant ,i will post a picture of the plant l8r when im in the house,

im not being lazy and have read nearlly all the thread just worried i cut at the wrong place

Q1 i just need to know if the first true node is where the two 3leafers are???
,(the first serated edge leaves) (1 of which has already fallen off and the other 3 leafers will prob fall off soon as well.)

Q2 if above is correct will new branches grow out from the first node as well ? 
(ie where the 3 leafers have fallen off )

if i understand this process right i will get 4 main stems coming from 2nd node after cut due to hormones redistributing under the cut site 

thanks in advance


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## jayganja78 (Jul 1, 2010)

daviaces said:


> hi folks great thread
> im new to this so sorry if i ask the obvious ,i am very keen to try this method of topping on my 1st plant ,i will post a picture of the plant l8r when im in the house,
> 
> im not being lazy and have read nearlly all the thread just worried i cut at the wrong place
> ...


omg i read it first time and understood just read ub post at page 1 m8 and all will be clear. im a newbee i got it right just just do what it say bro and you will have the same luck as all of us hope it works out well peace.


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## daviaces (Jul 1, 2010)

jayganja78 said:


> omg i read it first time and understood just read ub post at page 1 m8 and all will be clear. im a newbee i got it right just just do what it say bro and you will have the same luck as all of us hope it works out well peace.


 i have reread 1st page again and i totally understand it but could u just answer question 1 then i will know which is 2nd true node and know where to cut


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 1, 2010)

daviaces said:


> i have reread 1st page again and i totally understand it but could u just answer question 1 then i will know which is 2nd true node and know where to cut


Use the search function provided in this thread. You'll find plenty of answers.


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## daviaces (Jul 1, 2010)

ok i have found out that the first 3 leafers are the first true node


1 more thing what to do with top after topping?
clone the whole top? or clone 2biggest leaf sections( ie 2 branches from 3rd node)

thanks in advance


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## Old Goat (Jul 1, 2010)

daviaces said:


> ok i have found out that the first 3 leafers are the first true node
> 
> 
> 1 more thing what to do with top after topping?
> ...


You can clone any part as long as it has leafs. Read up on cloning first and find the one you think will bring you best results. I keep trying just keep killing . It's not the method I'm using that's the problem.
I would wait too long as then you have too much veg and have to cut it into smaller units. Good Luck and much better that me.


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 2, 2010)

daviaces said:


> ok i have found out that the first 3 leafers are the first true node
> 
> 
> 1 more thing what to do with top after topping?
> ...


You must not have searched hard enough. The 3 bladed leaves are the second node. 

Look at it this way, if its really tiny leaves(cotyledons) that dont look like pot leaves, then its a false node. Anything after is a true node.


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## Illumination (Jul 2, 2010)

sixstring2112 said:


> I hear that, this one is diluted with sticky colas. all the info you need is on the first couple pages, if you dont get it go back to the nubie threads. these are the last pics of this girl, i'm gunna chop it in 20 mins peace.


Hats off to ya!!

Namaste'
"A state licensed personal medical grow...Thank you"


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## buraka415 (Jul 2, 2010)

I have a question, I've read a lot of this thread, and I'm really stoked to have bumped into this technique. I was checking out my girls last night and started to check out the node alignment on the plants to just get a feel for practicing on where I would have made this cut (mind you these are 1 week into flower). But I checked maybe 15 - 20 of my girls, and none of the plants exhibited nodes that were across from each other. They were all alternating, I didnt see not one set of nodes that were even with each other. 

Am I missing something here? I'm not trying to make the cut now, I was just looking at them to get a visual feel of where I would have "theoretically" made the cut.


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## jjfoo (Jul 2, 2010)

buraka, clones usually don't have nodes like this

are you growing from clones? I grow from clones and used to cut all the lower growth off. After reading this thread it has changed the way I prune, but to do things like this thread shows you'll need to grow from seed.


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## Gardener 09 (Jul 2, 2010)

ya, if you grow from clones there nodes are always alternating, but you can still do it, i did just 2 days ago, i can already tell the groth starting on the new branches.


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## buraka415 (Jul 2, 2010)

@Gardener. pls report back on that. 

I was reading just now in Mel & Ed's book: _Then the arrangement of the leaves on the stem (phyllotaxy) changes from the usual opposite to alternate_.. but thats after several, several true node sites have formed and you are into veg. right?

yeh jjfoo. from clones. :/ ive read a lot of this thread and seems like i recall UB mentioning why clones dont work.


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## sixstring2112 (Jul 2, 2010)

Illumination said:


> Hats off to ya!!
> 
> Namaste'
> "A state licensed personal medical grow...Thank you"


Thank you , we aim to please.I figure if my patients are not 100% happy i failed at my job.This pruning method has helped me do my job better


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 2, 2010)

Your branches are alternating because they are mature. Once a plant becomes mature the branches go asymmetrical. That is when she is ready to flower. I would go ahead and fim my clones, and save the 4 topping for seeds.


buraka415 said:


> I have a question, I've read a lot of this thread, and I'm really stoked to have bumped into this technique. I was checking out my girls last night and started to check out the node alignment on the plants to just get a feel for practicing on where I would have made this cut (mind you these are 1 week into flower). But I checked maybe 15 - 20 of my girls, and none of the plants exhibited nodes that were across from each other. They were all alternating, I didnt see not one set of nodes that were even with each other.
> 
> Am I missing something here? I'm not trying to make the cut now, I was just looking at them to get a visual feel of where I would have "theoretically" made the cut.


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## buraka415 (Jul 2, 2010)

so in theory, this can be done then to clones? seems like FIMing has been elaborated on this thread as not always being the most accurate and/or reliable.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 3, 2010)

I have been practicing fim tech for 2 years, very reliable. I am now into 4 top then Lst.


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## buraka415 (Jul 3, 2010)

those look nice n healthy Golden! so i guess I need to get some seeds and try to experiment with this then.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 4, 2010)

I've never experimented with revegging a cutting (clone) but I do know that a revegged seedling will revert to a juvenile state of opposing nodes juvenile leaves, etc. 

Happy 4th to my American friends!

UB


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 4, 2010)

Yeah you will learn and then add your own tweeks.


buraka415 said:


> those look nice n healthy Golden! so i guess I need to get some seeds and try to experiment with this then.


 Great info thaNks.


Uncle Ben said:


> I've never experimented with revegging a cutting (clone) but I do know that a revegged seedling will revert to a juvenile state of opposing nodes juvenile leaves, etc.
> 
> Happy 4th to my American friends!
> 
> UB


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## OZYGREENLAB (Jul 6, 2010)

OKAY I GOTTA INTERJECT YOU'S R GOING ABOUT IT ALL WRONG !!!.. I've recently counted 22 on a smaller plant and 28 on the larger of plants "arm buds" (colas) not counting the little columns (yes they all the size of your arm) on the one plant!!! ending up with a general 1.8 to 2.5 pnds dry a plant ..... I been on the block 20 years worth so am accustomed to various methods tried n true... >>>> THE BEST WAY>>> ...Is to let the plant grow to about mid thigh height... you then attach a rope/string with a rubber band right near the top of the plant but where it is obviously still strong enough to cope... Importantly with one hand somewhere between the base and middle pull the plant towards the ground, with the other hand helping to push this plant towards the ground where you should have a peg (tent peg for ground) or floor rack(wooden frame on ground to tie rope to when hydro) (can take 5 - 10 mins, just be slow n carefull it will bend)... Aim to pull the plant horizontal or to the ground so it's basically only a few inches above the ground and as low as possible... commenly u have the rope/string around the peg and keep pulling the rope to tighten the plant closer to the ground... Leave the plants branches start growing upwards!.. again when these branches get about knee height you then attach rope/string to these with the rubber band again and now you have to peg/tie these to the ground.. (you have to spread the branches with thought and even space , i make about 15cm gap between branches).... THE AIM IS TO CREAT MORE BRANCHES NOT LEAVES !!! Once the plant has been tied down once, the columns grow up, are pegged down a 2nd time and the next lot of columns start growing upwards i generally trim/prune all the shade leaves off,but am leaving roughly 3 sets of leaves on each column/branch, leaving roughly an open set of leaves on the top , 1 in the middle somewhere and usually leave just 1 shade leaf of the branch down the very bottom out of the way (nothing below it and usually pokes out the side on bottom)... the goal is to make a balance between having just enough leaf to collect sunlight and grow as well as having the space to let the sunlight get to all the plant instead of just the top and outside parts...ffs don't do what others have when i tried explaining and go nuts cutting leaves off too early it stunts and slows it ! you will have to prune out new leaves as it grows and typically will have to prune 3 to 5 times in the cycle as well as have to think hard about positioning each pegged down branch in the right place (not everyone can be pegged down and you have to have a few upwards) and then finally use more string tied with rubber bands to your arm buds (colas) to help support the weight and keep them in the right place while they reach proper size... This method outdoes everyone i've ever met or seen or heard of in 20 years and nothing i seen in pics of ever came close to this method , ending up with an octopuss 2 mtr square plant .... if you create a 2nd/ 4th / 8th branch done by nipping to double up then it wastes time and energy Vs this method where it just powers along  >enjoy


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## genuity (Jul 6, 2010)

OZYGREENLAB said:


> OKAY I GOTTA INTERJECT YOU'S R GOING ABOUT IT ALL WRONG !!!.. I've recently counted 22 on a smaller plant and 28 on the larger of plants "arm buds" (colas) not counting the little columns (yes they all the size of your arm) on the one plant!!! ending up with a general 1.8 to 2.5 pnds dry a plant ..... I been on the block 20 years worth so am accustomed to various methods tried n true... >>>> THE BEST WAY>>> ...Is to let the plant grow to about mid thigh height... you then attach a rope/string with a rubber band right near the top of the plant but where it is obviously still strong enough to cope... Importantly with one hand somewhere between the base and middle pull the plant towards the ground, with the other hand helping to push this plant towards the ground where you should have a peg (tent peg for ground) or floor rack(wooden frame on ground to tie rope to when hydro) (can take 5 - 10 mins, just be slow n carefull it will bend)... Aim to pull the plant horizontal or to the ground so it's basically only a few inches above the ground and as low as possible... commenly u have the rope/string around the peg and keep pulling the rope to tighten the plant closer to the ground... Leave the plants branches start growing upwards!.. again when these branches get about knee height you then attach rope/string to these with the rubber band again and now you have to peg/tie these to the ground.. (you have to spread the branches with thought and even space , i make about 15cm gap between branches).... THE AIM IS TO CREAT MORE BRANCHES NOT LEAVES !!! Once the plant has been tied down once, the columns grow up, are pegged down a 2nd time and the next lot of columns start growing upwards i generally trim/prune all the shade leaves off,but am leaving roughly 3 sets of leaves on each column/branch, leaving roughly an open set of leaves on the top , 1 in the middle somewhere and usually leave just 1 shade leaf of the branch down the very bottom out of the way (nothing below it and usually pokes out the side on bottom)... the goal is to make a balance between having just enough leaf to collect sunlight and grow as well as having the space to let the sunlight get to all the plant instead of just the top and outside parts...ffs don't do what others have when i tried explaining and go nuts cutting leaves off too early it stunts and slows it ! you will have to prune out new leaves as it grows and typically will have to prune 3 to 5 times in the cycle as well as have to think hard about positioning each pegged down branch in the right place (not everyone can be pegged down and you have to have a few upwards) and then finally use more string tied with rubber bands to your arm buds (colas) to help support the weight and keep them in the right place while they reach proper size... This method outdoes everyone i've ever met or seen or heard of in 20 years and nothing i seen in pics of ever came close to this method , ending up with an octopuss 2 mtr square plant .... if you create a 2nd/ 4th / 8th branch done by nipping to double up then it wastes time and energy Vs this method where it just powers along  >enjoy


why???????topping is just fine.


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## KlosetKing (Jul 6, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> It isn't a matter of which produces the most, it is more of a style thing. There comes a point where too many colas can dilute things.


 hmm, too much topping might reduce the amount of hormones to each cola making some smaller (like 10 colas might all be smaller than 4 colas?), but i dont really see how it 'dilutes' things lol.

oh, and glad to see the browser issues have been worked out for the time being UB hope things are looking on the up and up now =D


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 6, 2010)

I do not believe you are diluting the hormones at all. I believe what you are doing is dividing available hormones. So naturally instead of one big cola and many smaller buds, you get many average to large colas. I have went from 1-2 oz per plant to 5-7 oz per plant and never lost potency, just let go of one large cola.


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## theceo13 (Jul 6, 2010)

is there anything negative that would happen to my plants if i topped them above the 2nd node but before they got to 5/6 nodes?


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 6, 2010)

theceo13 said:


> is there anything negative that would happen to my plants if i topped them above the 2nd node but before they got to 5/6 nodes?


It could impact the pace of growth. The reason you let it get a bit bigger is to allow the roots more time to grow. That way your plants will bounce back quicker after topping.


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## KlosetKing (Jul 6, 2010)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> I do not believe you are diluting the hormones at all. I believe what you are doing is dividing available hormones. So naturally instead of one big cola and many smaller buds, you get many average to large colas. I have went from 1-2 oz per plant to 5-7 oz per plant and never lost potency, just let go of one large cola.


 ya i put the '?' in there cuz i wasnt actually too sure. i knew that if you split it enough, they would still lower in size, but i had only HEARD that you could potentially overtop and get many undersized nugz (and i didnt hear it from the man UB himself either). so sorry, to clarify, i was speculating, didn't mean to imply it was fact.

on a side note, and i know this has been addressed a hundred times, but my first true node, or at least what i thought was my first true node, the coty's are basically at the same node? on my last plants, the coty's stayed at their own node, and a new node formed above them. these ones have obvious branches and the same site as the cotys. think i should top above that node? or just go on up from those anyways just in case? again, sorry to be throwing that in, but i havnt seen the cotys form at the same node as branches before so iam a bit confused.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 6, 2010)

I would snip off the coty and the one above, then top so there is only 4 branches total. These where done that way, and lst later (several times).


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## KlosetKing (Jul 6, 2010)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> I would snip off the coty and the one above, then top so there is only 4 branches total. These where done that way, and lst later (several times).


 bear with my noobness for one more post here, because im still a bit confused from your response. to clear it up for my simple mind (lol) i have included a pic this time. the red circle is where the cotys are, but also appears to be a true node as well due to the branching (maybe iam wrong). so you think i should treat the red circle as 1st node, or the green one? only reason iam as concerned as i am is bc this is my first topping attempt and its probably going to be done here in the next 2 hours. and thanks again for your patience in advance! iam humbled by it...


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## ColaFarmer (Jul 6, 2010)

Green is your first "True" node. You're more then likely going to prune any growth that comes off of your red circle area.


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## KlosetKing (Jul 6, 2010)

ColaFarmer said:


> Green is your first "True" node. You're more then likely going to prune any growth that comes off of your red circle area.


 ive never pruned anything that wasn't necessary (i prefer to just lst it, i don't cut leaves that aren't over 75% dead and pull off with a gentle tug). are you saying it will be necessary? or just recommending it.


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## ColaFarmer (Jul 6, 2010)

Well... If you don't "lollipop" your plants, you might want to look into it. I don't know everything about your grow; but if you ever get any type of real bushy plants, it is worth it to "selectively prune" any areas of the plant that is just not worth the plant to try to push out buds there. Know what I mean? If you do this early enough before flowering then your plant fill focus it's "CHI" so to speak into it's cola and all the other nuggets that can benefit from the light more efficiently.

This technique works very well along with "LST". Just check the first page, post #26 of this Journal. <---- That's the link.(FYI)


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## KlosetKing (Jul 6, 2010)

ColaFarmer said:


> Well... If you don't "lollipop" your plants, you might want to look into it. I don't know everything about your grow; but if you ever get any type of real bushy plants, it is worth it to "selectively prune" any areas of the plant that is just not worth the plant to try to push out buds there. Know what I mean? If you do this early enough before flowering then your plant fill focus it's "CHI" so to speak into it's cola and all the other nuggets that can benefit from the light more efficiently.
> 
> This technique works very well along with "LST". Just check the first page, post #26 of this Journal. <---- That's the link.(FYI)


 just the info i was looking for, thanks for the input!


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## ColaFarmer (Jul 6, 2010)

You're welcome.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 7, 2010)

Sorry I missed that question, been playing in the dirt for the last few hours.  I take off the red circle. See how small it is, always will be,. So take it off then cut so you only have 2 nodes (4 branches) left.
What did you do?


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## Danielsgb (Jul 7, 2010)

ColaFarmer said:


> Well... If you don't "lollipop" your plants, you might want to look into it. I don't know everything about your grow; but if you ever get any type of real bushy plants, it is worth it to "selectively prune" any areas of the plant that is just not worth the plant to try to push out buds there. Know what I mean? If you do this early enough before flowering then your plant fill focus it's "CHI" so to speak into it's cola and all the other nuggets that can benefit from the light more efficiently.
> 
> This technique works very well along with "LST". Just check the first page, post #26 of this Journal. <---- That's the link.(FYI)


lollipopping on UB's thread? I'm sure he loves that.


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## riddleme (Jul 7, 2010)

Danielsgb said:


> lollipopping on UB's thread? I'm sure he loves that.


yeah can't wait to see that response


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## Danielsgb (Jul 7, 2010)

Danielsgb said:


> lollipopping on UB's thread? I'm sure he loves that.





riddleme said:


> yeah can't wait to see that response


You might as well ask what a true node is too.


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## Brick Top (Jul 7, 2010)

ColaFarmer said:


> Well... If you don't "lollipop" your plants, you might want to look into it. I don't know everything about your grow; but if you ever get any type of real bushy plants, it is worth it to "selectively prune" any areas of the plant that is just not worth the plant to try to push out buds there. Know what I mean? If you do this early enough before flowering then your plant fill focus it's "CHI" so to speak into it's cola and all the other nuggets that can benefit from the light more efficiently.



*Heresy .... **sacrilege* *.... burn the witch!*


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## riddleme (Jul 7, 2010)

[video=youtube;k_CAs3q7G48]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_CAs3q7G48[/video]


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 7, 2010)

Oh riddleme thats exactly what I needed before going to my shitty job. Thank you so much for starting my morning off right.


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## KlosetKing (Jul 7, 2010)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Sorry I missed that question, been playing in the dirt for the last few hours.  I take off the red circle. See how small it is, always will be,. So take it off then cut so you only have 2 nodes (4 branches) left.
> What did you do?


 well after the advice that that first node with the coty's should just be clipped off, it affirmed the thought the i should treat it as a false node. therefore, i decided to wait for one more node to pop before i go cutting anything. probably tonight or tomorrow i will go through the with plans =D thanks again for the advice everyone, definitely cleared it up!
-edit- oh and to clarify, i might be clipping that bottom coty node, but no, i dont foresee any more lollipopping after that =D iam a firm believer in leaving a much growth on the plant as i can. if i need more light penetration or anything, i would much rather just incorporate some lst.


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## ColaFarmer (Jul 7, 2010)

I'm sure Uncle Ben will under stand... Everyone's grow is different, there is no reason this new grower shouldn't understand and be introduced to all forms of growing. If he does take in a "burn the witch" kind of way, then I apologize. I've tried all ways of growing and have found if using a 600 watt or less then "topping"/"FIMing"/"super cropping" along with "lollipopping" is the most beneficial in the long run (in my experiences). Like I said, everyone's grow is and should be different. To each his own.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 7, 2010)

I think the 4 top method is great. Dividing the hormones up into 4 branches makes more sense to me than to have the hormones run straight up into one cola.


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## riddleme (Jul 7, 2010)

ColaFarmer said:


> I'm sure Uncle Ben will under stand... Everyone's grow is different, there is no reason this new grower shouldn't understand and be introduced to all forms of growing. If he does take in a "burn the witch" kind of way, then I apologize. I've tried all ways of growing and have found if using a 600 watt or less then "topping"/"FIMing"/"super cropping" along with "lollipopping" is the most beneficial in the long run (in my experiences). Like I said, everyone's grow is and should be different. To each his own.


our laughter and comments are based on this thread

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/244201-lollipopping.html

if you take the time to read it you will understand


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## Brick Top (Jul 7, 2010)

ColaFarmer said:


> I'm sure Uncle Ben will under stand... Everyone's grow is different, there is no reason this new grower shouldn't understand and be introduced to all forms of growing. If he does take in a "burn the witch" kind of way, then I apologize. I've tried all ways of growing and have found if using a 600 watt or less then "topping"/"FIMing"/"super cropping" along with "lollipopping" is the most beneficial in the long run (in my experiences). Like I said, everyone's grow is and should be different. To each his own.



My "heresy .... sacrilege .... burn the witch" comment was actually a bit of humor for Uncle Ben. We have been in contact online for a fair while on several different sites and knowing his sense of humor and how he can at times react to things said I felt it might make Uncle Ben chuckle. It was not intended to say or mean more.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 7, 2010)

Howdy all! Yeah, ya'll can take ur lollipopping questions and.........

Can you believe it, just got a PM from a guy that needed info on topping clones! Referral? Back to the thread junior. 

Sup BT? I got 2 fine looking C99 plants growing outdoors. Can you believe no one wants the one I'm trying to give away!?

Garden hard,
Tio


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 7, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy all! Yeah, ya'll can take ur lollipopping questions and.........
> 
> Can you believe it, just got a PM from a guy that needed info on topping clones! Referral? Back to the thread junior.
> 
> ...


Too bad you live so far away. Id give a nice home to your little lady 

I bet they'll be coming around once they're finished though hehe.


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## ElectricPineapple (Jul 7, 2010)

haha id take that C99 off your hands uncle ben, without thinking twice, ya, lollipopping will probably do more harm than good.


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## KlosetKing (Jul 7, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy all! Yeah, ya'll can take ur lollipopping questions and.........
> 
> Can you believe it, just got a PM from a guy that needed info on topping clones! Referral? Back to the thread junior.
> 
> ...


 fed ex that shit! lawl!
no really though, lollipopping is just something that in 'logic' i agree with Ben on(iam only starting grow 2 so iam by no means an expert on ANYTHING lol). iam not saying that it doesnt work for people, but i just think the same way as he does on the subject is all =D


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## ColaFarmer (Jul 7, 2010)

riddleme said:


> our laughter and comments are based on this thread
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/244201-lollipopping.html
> 
> if you take the time to read it you will understand


I read it, still come to the same conclusion. To each his own, not going to turn this into a pissing match...


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## riddleme (Jul 7, 2010)

ColaFarmer said:


> I read it, still come to the same conclusion. To each his own, not going to turn this into a pissing match...


cool no pissing match intended, like BT said we were having a laugh, not an arguement


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## ColaFarmer (Jul 7, 2010)

All good.


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## KlosetKing (Jul 7, 2010)

ya hope my whole question didnt muddy up the thread too much, i felt bad even asking, but due to my last batch having cotys on their own node i was a bit confused and wanted to make sure i didnt kill my girls. thanks again for the patience gentleman, this n00b is appreciative =D


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 7, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Too bad you live so far away. Id give a nice home to your little lady


I reckon. You've got a fine looking garden going.

Gonna save one. They started autoflowering about 3 weeks ago. Except for a yellow leaf or two that drops because I forget to water them daily, they are fine lookin' ladies. They are both double cola dominant, not 4 cola. I'll try to get a photo or two. Have not fertilized except for the slow release 18-5-8 that's in the mix. I love that stuff. Cost me a whopping 5 cents and looks like a million.


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## MrJones86 (Jul 7, 2010)

Thanks for this tutorial man. I topped my plant about 4 days ago and am totally happy with the results I've seen so far.

  Before...
 View attachment 1032087View attachment 1032111 After


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 7, 2010)

MrJones86 said:


> Thanks for this tutorial man. I topped my plant about 4 days ago and am totally happy with the results I've seen so far.
> 
> View attachment 1032103 View attachment 1032097 Before...
> View attachment 1032093 View attachment 1032089View attachment 1032091View attachment 1032087View attachment 1032111 After


What type of medium are you using Jones? Your plant looks like its experiencing water stress.


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## MrJones86 (Jul 7, 2010)

It's perlite covered on top by aquarium gravel. It's a 5 gallon DWC bubbler... so unless it's not bubbling quite enough I'm not sure what to do about that.


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 8, 2010)

MrJones86 said:


> It's perlite covered on top by aquarium gravel. It's a 5 gallon DWC bubbler... so unless it's not bubbling quite enough I'm not sure what to do about that.


Im no hydro expert, but if you pm Snutter and tell him Dave sent you, he might be able to help you out. DWC is his expertise.


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## poppersmoke (Jul 8, 2010)

okay so basically i need to cut my plant in half for this method to properly work? and does it matter for outdoor plants?


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 8, 2010)

poppersmoke said:


> okay so basically i need to cut my plant in half for this method to properly work? and does it matter for outdoor plants?


Bascically you need to start with page one and read the thread.


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## Airwave (Jul 8, 2010)

poppersmoke said:


> okay so basically i need to cut my plant in half for this method to properly work? and does it matter for outdoor plants?


Yeah, I had to take my plants right down when I did it. It's a worrying thought but it does work.
I simply used the tops as clones for more plants.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 8, 2010)

One wonders how many times UB has typed that out?


Uncle Ben said:


> Bascically you need to start with page one and read the thread.


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## ElectricPineapple (Jul 8, 2010)

at least 100 times


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 8, 2010)

Topped late above 2nd node. 2 colas are dominant, 2 colas are recessive.

Close up of one I'm trying to give away:



One plant has pot sunk in ground 3", with cage:



Another angle:



Fertilizer is some organics I threw in the mix and about 2 TBS. of a slow release plant food, high N - 18-5-7. Has been outdoors and been flowering for about 4 weeks. This is one of my C99 backcrosses. Fair amount of lower leaf loss due to moisture stress because I forget to water them. 

Grow hard,
Tio


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## cali boy (Jul 8, 2010)

Thanks dude, definatly gunna do this shizz on my 2nd grow when i got more space/lighting


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## Hotwired (Jul 9, 2010)

Not sure if this was discussed UB but I only work from clone. Is the 4 cola method possible from clones? I've been trying now for over a year to get your method right but I fail every time. I seem to get 2 dominant and 2 secondary branches, and sometimes the secondary branches can't keep up during flowering and need to be cut.

The staircase pattern in which they grow throws my node count off. Is 1 branch = to 1 node? Or do you include the branch that grows an inch above it as one full node? IMO they grow too far apart to count 2 branches as one node. Also, the branches that grow from the bottom of a clone usually suck and don't grow well. I always like to cut them off and use the new growth branches because they come out fatter and stronger.

After all this time I'm starting to believe this method can only be done from seed. It works from seed for me every time, but I have not succeeded in doing it from clone. Should I give up and grow out nice bushy plants with my clones? Or do you have a working method that you use from your clones? 

Thanks


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 9, 2010)

Hotwired said:


> Not sure if this was discussed UB but I only work from clone.


Only a dozen or so times, sheesh! Read the thread.


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## Steph187 (Jul 9, 2010)

All 250 pages of it?!!!?!


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## riddleme (Jul 9, 2010)

Steph187 said:


> All 250 pages of it?!!!?!


I've read it twice


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## Danielsgb (Jul 9, 2010)

oh, just start backwards. It's there within 50


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## Steph187 (Jul 9, 2010)

riddleme said:


> I've read it twice


 lmfao.....


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## Nitegazer (Jul 9, 2010)

Hotwired,

As someone who doesn't like having to read through excessive material, I really wish you had taken the rant elsewhere. UB contends with many requests for information he has already stated, and re-stated.

If you don't want to read the whole thread, a THREAD SEARCH is an option. Use keywords and just look over the results to the querry.


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## Danielsgb (Jul 9, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Are you through?
> 
> Nothing like a lazy, hands out, spoiled brat with an anger issue.


Wow, ROFLMAO
Daniels


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 9, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Are you through?
> 
> Nothing like a lazy, hands out, spoiled brat with an anger issue.


Nicely put UB. I like the way you waited. Very Respectable


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## raw225 (Jul 9, 2010)

that picture on the 1st page with the plant with just stems (NO LEAVES) what does that do for the plant?

one of my plants got burned with my HPS light and alot of the upper half of the plants leaves are curled up an kinda drying out.... should i go ahead & cut all those off to help it shake back faster? its taking a long time to get back to normal

please help me out some1

THANKS!!


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## mydixiewrecked (Jul 9, 2010)

Hotwired said:


> UB, I apologize for putting a gap of bullshit in your thread and bringing out the monkeys. Insulting them with words wont help at all. They will never comprehend them and it wouldn't be very nice of me to continue this here.
> 
> I will take on the shitheads elsewhere. If you need me to edit my posts please send a pm asking to do so.


doin a little backpeddlin? you sure where easy to spout out the cuss words and names, but when your made the fool, you turn and run.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 9, 2010)

I think it would be nice of the two of you to remove your post, although I did have a good laugh


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 9, 2010)

Your Locations is reflecting in your posts. Gone too far with all this grossness. I don't know, here in Eugene, Or. we get stoned and relax, smile, listen to music, but all this garbage is really going to far. If Fade steps in here he clean house.


Hotwired said:


> I would remove mine, but now I'm just getting warmed up. Monkey boy is in my x-hairs now and I'm having fun


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 9, 2010)

I wish someone would come in here and clean this crap up. Granted some of it was pretty funny, but this thread isn't about flaming people. Its about providing knowledge. Should someone be too lazy to read the first few pages, then they better learn to use the search function, or expect to not get much help when they ask a question thats been repeatedly asked dozens and dozens of times.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 9, 2010)

This is ruining a helpful and informative thread for all. Please both of you, just message each other your insults, the rest of us would appreciate that.


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## Dagger420 (Jul 9, 2010)

I don't know, maybe we waited till they got a bit big before we toped them but I figured it was best to let them get a bit healthy before chopping them up anyway (back 2 plants). Clones from the cuttings are growing nicely and the 2 topped plants seem to have rebounded and then some (those are the front 2 in the second picture). 

UB and company what do you think?


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 9, 2010)

Dagger420 said:


> I don't know, maybe we waited till they got a bit big before we toped them but I figured it was best to let them get a bit healthy before chopping them up anyway (back 2 plants). Clones from the cuttings are growing nicely and the 2 topped plants seem to have rebounded and then some (those are the front 2 in the second picture).
> 
> UB and company what do you think?


Look damn good to me. Keep them green and healthy and you'll do fine.

Good luck,
UB


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## Dagger420 (Jul 9, 2010)

It's amazing what these plants do when you don't fuck with them... Some basic gardening experience really helps too. Was scared initially to cut that much off the top but they have responded well.
The bigger plant in the 1st picture almost did an LST on itself so I want to see how it grows and the other 2 we chopped have at least 8 tops now between the two (11-12 between all 3 plants). Very anxious to flower these in the next week or so.


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 9, 2010)

Dagger420 said:


> I don't know, maybe we waited till they got a bit big before we toped them but I figured it was best to let them get a bit healthy before chopping them up anyway (back 2 plants). Clones from the cuttings are growing nicely and the 2 topped plants seem to have rebounded and then some (those are the front 2 in the second picture).
> 
> UB and company what do you think?


Your plants look great. Good job your doing there.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 9, 2010)

Looks way better than my first few attempts.


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## buraka415 (Jul 10, 2010)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Looks way better than my first few attempts.


we all make mistakes


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## [email protected] (Jul 10, 2010)

I tried it and we are going to see how it goes... but what i do is let them get 10-12" tall then start a combo of pinching off the very very top node (the little bud) and bending...


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## buraka415 (Jul 10, 2010)

@[email protected]

aw sweet. I am running Blue Dream right now. looks like you are in flowering? or no? What's your experience with BD so far? used that strain previously? its a fairly decent yielder ive been told. WOopWoop


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## Fyndhorn (Jul 10, 2010)

been reading post for 2 days got tired of same ?all the time jumped to end Great post +rep learned lots old smoker from when homegrower was shit weed


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 10, 2010)

Learned from them all. Below is Rock Lock SLH and the church


buraka415 said:


> we all make mistakes


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 10, 2010)

Those are some very healthy plants!


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## bagseedmonster (Jul 10, 2010)

does the four main cola method work all the time


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 10, 2010)

bagseedmonster said:


> does the four main cola method work all the time


No, not always, but you're almost always guaranteed two dominant colas. Sometimes you'll get 3, other times 4. A bit of lst'ing after topping can help you reach the 4 cola goal though.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 10, 2010)

TY UB. I have tried your method many times , finally getting it to work for me. QUOTE=Uncle Ben;4379427]Those are some very healthy plants![/QUOTE]


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## [email protected] (Jul 11, 2010)

buraka415 said:


> @[email protected]
> 
> aw sweet. I am running Blue Dream right now. looks like you are in flowering? or no? What's your experience with BD so far? used that strain previously? its a fairly decent yielder ive been told. WOopWoop


I've got a few than've been vegging since May and is the size of I am, so f'n trees man. But this is my first and last flower, I've got some Lambsbread and AK-47 thats going to take over


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## Osiris8605 (Jul 12, 2010)

Can the top you took off be used just as a clone clipping would be?


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 12, 2010)

Osiris8605 said:


> Can the top you took off be used just as a clone clipping would be?


Yes it can.


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## Osiris8605 (Jul 12, 2010)

Awesome thanks


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 12, 2010)

If you can get it to root it sure can. The higher up the plant you take your cutting from, the harder it is for them to root. I take my cuts for cloning from the bottom after they the plant matures and before 12/12. I have a 99% survival rate.


Osiris8605 said:


> Can the top you took off be used just as a clone clipping would be?


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## boy (Jul 12, 2010)

can anyone fill me in on molasses? I bought some to try it........how much should i use and what does it do???


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 12, 2010)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> If you can get it to root it sure can. The higher up the plant you take your cutting from, the harder it is for them to root. I take my cuts for cloning from the bottom after they the plant matures and before 12/12. I have a 99% survival rate.


Golden, Ive read it both ways. Some way take it from the bottom, some say take it from the top. The argument against the top is that there may be too much auxin that could inhibit rooting, but Ill have to say its bunk in my experience. I removed the main colas from 3 male plants and 12 days later had great rootage. Much more so than clones Ive taken from the bottom of plants. 

Below are some pics of the clones.



This pic is from a Satori clone taken from the bottom of the plant.


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## sixstring2112 (Jul 13, 2010)

I take em from the top because that is where i seem to do all my pruning. i have not lost a clone in months.I will be taking some purple wreck from the bottom soon and see if they do any better than 10 days. Very nice roots dave


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 13, 2010)

Say Dave that is some dam good rooting you have there. I can see taking the top and cloneing it, never thought about the hormones running straight up in there. Side branches however I prefer to take from bottom. More hormones and that is where I clean up my plants before going 12/12. I took 4 cuts from The church, 4 cuts from Rock Lock and 12 cuts from SLH, all from the bottom, one week before going 12/12, all are doing well. I believe alot of my success is because I wait until plant matures before taking cuts. this is 7 days.


DaveCoulier said:


> Golden, Ive read it both ways. Some way take it from the bottom, some say take it from the top. The argument against the top is that there may be too much auxin that could inhibit rooting, but Ill have to say its bunk in my experience. I removed the main colas from 3 male plants and 12 days later had great rootage. Much more so than clones Ive taken from the bottom of plants.
> 
> Below are some pics of the clones.
> 
> ...


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 13, 2010)

Golden, you should give the top a try. I was shocked when I pulled those clones as I had been taking clone from the bottom of the plants, and wasn't getting roots nearly that good. 

I may be wrong and dont take offense, but it seems you may not know which way auxins go. When you say 'hormones running straight up in there', are you meaning auxins travels upwards in the plant? Maybe I am confused on what you mean..


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 13, 2010)

I do a 4 top method, and have 2 OG#18 seedlings so I will try it. Auxins flow straight up (mainly) that is why you get such a large cola when untouched. The excess goes into the side branching. I am too believe that bottom side branches will have more auxins then top side branches. How do you see it? Puff Puff pass.


DaveCoulier said:


> Golden, you should give the top a try. I was shocked when I pulled those clones as I had been taking clone from the bottom of the plants, and wasn't getting roots nearly that good.
> 
> I may be wrong and dont take offense, but it seems you may not know which way auxins go. When you say 'hormones running straight up in there', are you meaning auxins travels upwards in the plant? Maybe I am confused on what you mean..


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 13, 2010)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> I do a 4 top method, and have 2 OG#18 seedlings so I will try it. Auxins flow straight up (mainly) that is why you get such a large cola when untouched. The excess goes into the side branching. I am too believe that bottom side branches will have more auxins then top side branches. How do you see it? Puff Puff pass.


Auxins are created in the apical meristem, and move downwards towards the roots. As they move downwards the suppressing effects disipate and allow lower branches to grow, while those closest to the apical meristem are suppressed the most. 

During flowering it changes though, as auxin stops being produced in the apical meristem and this allows lower buds to begin to bloom as auxin levels deplete, and this continues in a downward process. Ill throw in a great link to learn more about auxins and how they affect flowering.

The link below is just a hypothesis, but it seems pretty logical.

http://algorithmicbotany.org/FSPM07/Individual/10.pdf


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 13, 2010)

Thank you Dave. I will get back to you, but first I must read about this.


DaveCoulier said:


> Auxins are created in the apical meristem, and move downwards towards the roots. As they move downwards the suppressing effects disipate and allow lower branches to grow, while those closest to the apical meristem are suppressed the most.
> 
> During flowering it changes though, as auxin stops being produced in the apical meristem and this allows lower buds to begin to bloom as auxin levels deplete, and this continues in a downward process. Ill throw in a great link to learn more about auxins and how they affect flowering.
> 
> ...


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 13, 2010)

Kudoos Dave, I have a better overstanding of Auxins now. I now get why the plants shoot for the light, and why a main cola is "main". +reps Dave.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 13, 2010)

Say Dave, what do you think of Super Cropping after the 1st week of 12/12 just before the stretch?


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 13, 2010)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Say Dave, what do you think of Super Cropping after the 1st week of 12/12 just before the stretch?


Ive noticed most of my strains I am growing atm began stretching during the first week of flowering. Some will wait till the 2nd week like you said. Either way, Id do it before entering the stretch. I want to give my plants plenty of time to grow those lateral branches out after cropping. I noticed pretty much all of my ladies put on new nodes of growth 21 days into flowering, and the skunk hazes easily 28 days, so its best not to waste valuable time.


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## teamgilly (Jul 16, 2010)

Uncle Ben, i understand how 4 tops will grow from cutting after the second node on a seedling. however with my clones the branchs are alternating and not parrallel to each other. should i just count the leaf sites below where i am to cut to determine if i will have four main branches that will be my colas. If this is the case it will not be after the 2nd node but further up. im a little confused


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 16, 2010)

teamgilly said:


> Uncle Ben, i understand how 4 tops will grow from cutting after the second node on a seedling. however with my clones the branchs are alternating and not parrallel to each other. should i just count the leaf sites below where i am to cut to determine if i will have four main branches that will be my colas. If this is the case it will not be after the 2nd node but further up. im a little confused


Yes, do that, but dont expect 4 equal colas. That isn't always possible with from seed, and even harder with clones. Do some lst'ing on lateral branches that outgrow the others, and you'll increase your chances of 4 equal tops.


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## StonedBlownSkiller (Jul 19, 2010)

THX ub FOR THE THREAD. I read it like 20 times because I didnt wanna fuck something up. I did it and so far the one plant has two news coming up and the other has four. thx man, this was a awesome experience. 

For ppl who cannot unnderstand this....shit your outta luck cuzz it dont get no simpler than this.


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## Hotwired (Jul 19, 2010)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Learned from them all. Below is Rock Lock SLH and the church


Nice plants GG. Mine look like that from seed every time. I'm thinking of converting to seed grows only but will give cloning one more try. I'm putting less plants under a 1000 watt light to try to make them bushier. I give up on the 4 cola method from clones.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 20, 2010)

Go with larger containers (round over deep) . If from clone (mature cuts) you can really pull some heavy weight everytime.


Hotwired said:


> Nice plants GG. Mine look like that from seed every time. I'm thinking of converting to seed grows only but will give cloning one more try. I'm putting less plants under a 1000 watt light to try to make them bushier. I give up on the 4 cola method from clones.


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## jberry (Jul 21, 2010)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> If you can get it to root it sure can. The higher up the plant you take your cutting from, the harder it is for them to root. I take my cuts for cloning from the bottom after they the plant matures and before 12/12. I have a 99% survival rate.


 There is a zone on every plant stem that goes from low carbohydrates and high Nitrogen to high carbohydrates and low Nitrogen;
you want the middle of this zone... this is the reason why you can have good and bad results whether you are taking cutting from the top or bottom of the plant.


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## riptidefever (Jul 21, 2010)

A little advice and answers  Could someone tell me if these three plants are ready to be topped i am lView attachment 1057265ooking for the 4 cola method. They are 4 weeks into vegging,,and can i put the clones in siol right back in the veg box?View attachment 1057263


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 21, 2010)

You can use the top as a clone. Im not sure if sticking it in straight soil is best though. Ive never tried that. I use vermiculite as my cloning medium. Rapid Rooters also work, but In my experience, vermiculite >> rapid rooters. 

I was gonna dl your pic and draw a line on the plant where I would top, but your pics are too small. From the first pic, it looks like you have 4 nicely developing lateral shoots, and two that are coming along nicely above the bottom 4. I would top above the 4 well developed ones, then use the top as your clone.


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## Danielsgb (Jul 21, 2010)

Here's my first try at this with UB and Riddleme's help. It works great.
Daniels
View attachment 1057805
View attachment 1057802View attachment 1057803


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## Hydro Hippy (Jul 21, 2010)

What strain is that? nice topping


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## Danielsgb (Jul 21, 2010)

Royal Kush
Thanks


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## DaveCoulier (Jul 21, 2010)

Real nice job Daniel. I just chopped a plant tonight myself. Too bad it was all seed . Total loss. Your plant gives me something to look forward to with my round of clones that are 3 weeks in.


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## purextrato (Jul 23, 2010)

It is confusing to know exatcly where to cut exactly

When do the nodes begin to count from?

Where is the "2nd true node"???


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## Danielsgb (Jul 23, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Real nice job Daniel. I just chopped a plant tonight myself. Too bad it was all seed . Total loss. Your plant gives me something to look forward to with my round of clones that are 3 weeks in.


Sorry to hear you got a bunch of seeds. I'm sure the next round you'll do great.
Daniels


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## potpimp (Jul 23, 2010)

Daniel that is one beautiful plant bud!!! Congrats!!


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## Danielsgb (Jul 24, 2010)

potpimp said:


> Daniel that is one beautiful plant bud!!! Congrats!!


Thanks. I'm pretty proud of her. She was my first plant using UB's topping.
Daniels


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## purp602 (Jul 24, 2010)

cut all 3 of mine at the 5th node... now in the 4th week of flowering... 12 main colas looks so NICE cant wait till harvest... thanks for the help Uncle Ben!!! pics to come


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## purextrato (Jul 24, 2010)

why 5th node?

Arent we meant to cut on the second? This stuff is so confusing... Now it is too late then, i cut mine after the 2nd node as stated on the first post 

I though max was 4 main colas, how did u get 12??? Mutant weed???


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## StonedBlownSkiller (Jul 24, 2010)

you do cut after the 2nd but wait to cut until you have 5


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## purextrato (Jul 24, 2010)

ooooooooooooo im very lucky then, because it just had 5 or 6, cant remember now :S

dude, its taking ages for my plant to grow. Now that i cut for more main colas, it will take even longer 

I think it 2 months old or older already, and tiny!!! Need to buy plant food, or give it a burger king or something, see if it supersizes, LOL
I wished the UFO's came everynight at my house, so i could user their power laser beam LED's to make them grow quick :S


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## potpimp (Jul 24, 2010)

Something is not right with your soil (if you're growing in soil) or you don't have enough light or maybe you're watering too much. Your plant should be *at least* 2' tall in 60 days. You might have fungus gnats munching on your roots or some other little critters.

edited to say: Oh, and topping will not slow down your plants growth.


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## purplehazin (Jul 25, 2010)

Well it will for a few days 

Then it will just grow back more ferociously haha.

Edit: Just thought I'd spam a picture of my freshly topped Wappa:

View attachment 1063204

Thanks UB for the pointers!


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## purp602 (Jul 26, 2010)

purextrato said:


> why 5th node?
> 
> Arent we meant to cut on the second? This stuff is so confusing... Now it is too late then, i cut mine after the 2nd node as stated on the first post
> 
> I though max was 4 main colas, how did u get 12??? Mutant weed???



lol no no no bro (purextrato) i cut mine at the 2nd node when they reached the 5th node. i planted three plants so now i have 12 main colas... ya digg???


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## purextrato (Jul 26, 2010)

purp602 said:


> lol no no no bro (purextrato) i cut mine at the 2nd node when they reached the 5th node. i planted three plants so now i have 12 main colas... ya digg???


Yes i got it now!!!
I was very lucky, because i cut at the second node, but the plant had reached the 6 node already, so i am safe i hope!!!  
I also didnt know had 3 plants, lol....got really confused when u said 12 main colas, hahahahha


Btw... after cutting after the seconf node, i took the top and stuck it back on soil, because i dont have the cubes for clonning, and this left over is doing better then the base, i though the plant wouldnt root, but it looks like it is doing well ....weird

The plant from purplehaizin is awesome, looking superb healthy already!!!


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## Bnasty2337 (Jul 27, 2010)

+REP I'm going to cut my plant now! And I will be sure to clip at the 2nd node. This was a big help!


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## Thundernuts (Jul 28, 2010)

I have a question about your topping tech.You state that the plant grew 42 inches tall(roughly).How tall would it have grown without topping it?Would it be smaller/taller?The reason i ask is because i did your topping method(on a clone) and am wondering if it will grow taller than the original plant(height may become an issue).My original plant only grew to about 2 feet or so,and has never been trimmed.I know that clones most likely won't grow to be as big as there mother.Just wondering what the difference in height would have been?


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## Nativegrower (Jul 29, 2010)

Subscribed, nice thread.


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## Danielsgb (Jul 30, 2010)

Thundernuts said:


> I have a question about your topping tech.You state that the plant grew 42 inches tall(roughly).How tall would it have grown without topping it?Would it be smaller/taller?The reason i ask is because i did your topping method(on a clone) and am wondering if it will grow taller than the original plant(height may become an issue).My original plant only grew to about 2 feet or so,and has never been trimmed.I know that clones most likely won't grow to be as big as there mother.Just wondering what the difference in height would have been?


Clones won't get as big as their mother? Why? They are a exact copy of the Mother Plants. I think you got some bad info there. Mine that I topped was about 10" to 12" shorter than her two sisters.
Daniels


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## potpimp (Jul 30, 2010)

Want to see some foxtails using UB's topping method? Check out the last pix in my grow; the link is in my sig.


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## Thundernuts (Jul 30, 2010)

Danielsgb said:


> Clones won't get as big as their mother? Why? They are a exact copy of the Mother Plants. I think you got some bad info there. Mine that I topped was about 10" to 12" shorter than her two sisters.
> Daniels


 The reason i asked was because i was wondering if it would grow taller because of less branches(not sure if that has anything to do with it or not?).This is my first clone,and first time trying this topping method.Not sure what to expect,so i thought i would ask.


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## sno1890 (Jul 30, 2010)

I have used your technique on one of my plants and then took the top and turned it into a clone with no issues. Did take about three days longer than a normal clone to show roots though.


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## Unclepauly (Aug 2, 2010)

Q here. I have 7 nodes can I still top with this method? Also I feel like I'm wasting a month of growth just to spread out the top. At least it looks like you can clone that huge f'n part of the plant we're cutting off.


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## riddleme (Aug 2, 2010)

Unclepauly said:


> Q here. I have 7 nodes can I still top with this method? Also I feel like I'm wasting a month of growth just to spread out the top. At least it looks like you can clone that huge f'n part of the plant we're cutting off.


You are good to go at 7 most top when the plant reaches 5 to 6 nodes this to insure it is mature and can handle the stress of topping it, and yes you can clone the top but takes a bit longer than lower branches


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## anomolies (Aug 4, 2010)

I tried this, and I get the 4 tops , sometimes 2 outgrow the other 2, but the node spacing always gets further and further apart as the new tops grow... why is that? Haven't hit flowering yet but am I going to end up with fluffy bud and no giant main colas?

btw, if I rip off the growth at the first node, and I top at the 3rd, does this produce the same 4 cola as topping at the 2nd node?


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## parklax (Aug 5, 2010)

first pic is my first legit attempt at a grow with a little aerogarden, utilizing UB's 4 cola method. used all that ive learned over the posts, thank you everyone for this wonderful resource, RIU is incredible! sorry no big buds tho... i learned my lesson for just growin 1, 

View attachment 1082424
View attachment 1082425 
this is current, will be doing the same topping method as before. crossing my fingers for some tits


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## DaveCoulier (Aug 5, 2010)

anomolies said:


> I tried this, and I get the 4 tops , sometimes 2 outgrow the other 2, but the node spacing always gets further and further apart as the new tops grow... why is that? Haven't hit flowering yet but am I going to end up with fluffy bud and no giant main colas?
> 
> btw, if I rip off the growth at the first node, and I top at the 3rd, does this produce the same 4 cola as topping at the 2nd node?


The two that outgrow the others are apically dominant over the lower two. It happens. The best way to overcome that is to tie down the two colas that outgrow the other two and try to get them all even. You can try and tie down those two tops now, or supercrop them, or whatever. If the two dominant colas outgrow them too much, you could end up with two useless colas if they aren't able to get much light, but that depends on how you've set your grow up, and what type of lighting you use(vertical/horizontal/side lighting).

As to your second question, that should work just as well, but the first set of branches Id try to save as they'll be more developed usually by the time you top.


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## anomolies (Aug 5, 2010)

oh.. you missed the question I really wanted answered, but thanks. haha.

I tried this but the node spacing always gets further and further apart as the new tops grow... why is that? Haven't hit flowering yet but am I going to end up with fluffy bud and no giant main colas?

btw I think waiting till 5th node to top at 2nd node just wastes too much growth.. For me 3 nodes is like.. 1-2 weeks of growth.. I usually top when the 5 blade leaf appears, or 3rd node.


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## HookdOnChronics (Aug 5, 2010)

UB, I just did this to a few of my seedlings man. The 4 tops. It's freaking legit! lol, Iv'e been going through all this trouble of constantly tieing down ect. When I could have just dont this!.. lol, and veg slightly longer. 

My question now is: How long after topping to get the 4 tops should I wait to put the girls into flower. How long does it take for the plant to 'heal' and not be stressed any longer. Because I do not want to toss a stressed plant into flower. I'm going to be flowering a larger amount of smaller plants this time, instead of a smaller amount of larger plants. So when would you say it's safe to toss them into flower, AFTER topping for 4 tops?... How long do the plants usually remain 'stressed' after topping?

What are EVERYBODY's thoughts on this situation?


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## DaveCoulier (Aug 5, 2010)

anomolies said:


> oh.. you missed the question I really wanted answered, but thanks. haha.
> 
> I tried this but the node spacing always gets further and further apart as the new tops grow... why is that? Haven't hit flowering yet but am I going to end up with fluffy bud and no giant main colas?
> 
> btw I think waiting till 5th node to top at 2nd node just wastes too much growth.. For me 3 nodes is like.. 1-2 weeks of growth.. I usually top when the 5 blade leaf appears, or 3rd node.


If your internodal distance is too much to your liking it could be a variety of factors. Lights are too far away, or perhaps you are growing a Sativa and that is the norm. 

As for giant main colas..well it takes practice, and the right strains. You wont know what you'll get until you flower. Topping would have a negligible effect on what type of bud structure you get, so dont worry about topping causing problems. 



HookdOnChronics said:


> UB, I just did this to a few of my seedlings man. The 4 tops. It's freaking legit! lol, Iv'e been going through all this trouble of constantly tieing down ect. When I could have just dont this!.. lol, and veg slightly longer.
> 
> My question now is: How long after topping to get the 4 tops should I wait to put the girls into flower. How long does it take for the plant to 'heal' and not be stressed any longer. Because I do not want to toss a stressed plant into flower. I'm going to be flowering a larger amount of smaller plants this time, instead of a smaller amount of larger plants. So when would you say it's safe to toss them into flower, AFTER topping for 4 tops?... How long do the plants usually remain 'stressed' after topping?
> 
> What are EVERYBODY's thoughts on this situation?


You should give them at least a week. 2 would be better. It also depends on how far into flowering does your strain continue to put on new nodal growth. If you are growing a long flowering Sativa, then you can actually flower quicker after topping versus some Indica thats done in under 50 days. Ive noticed the 7 or so strains Im growing or have grown this grow continued putting on new nodal growth for at least 3 weeks into flower. Anywhere from 4-8 new nodes. 

As for stress, as long as your plants are healthy when topped, it really shouldn't bother them.


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## anomolies (Aug 5, 2010)

eh... so you can't get these giant colas with Sativas then? I'm growing Aussie Blues and WW outdoors.


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## DaveCoulier (Aug 5, 2010)

anomolies said:


> eh... so you can't get these giant colas with Sativas then? I'm growing Aussie Blues and WW outdoors.


You can. UB has some pics here somewhere of giant Sativa colas, but he's an expert, and you and I are not .


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## jjfoo (Aug 5, 2010)

Many of us here are experts relative to most typical home gardners. My co-workers and I used to say that an expert was someone who came from more than 10 miles away.


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## dirty dogg40 (Aug 5, 2010)

maybe i missed it , but would the stretch phase during bloom still be 2 to 3 times the vegged size?


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## DaveCoulier (Aug 5, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> Many of us here are experts relative to most typical home gardners. My co-workers and I used to say that an expert was someone who came from more than 10 miles away.


I wouldn't be so quick to make that comparison. Ive learned alot from gardenweb forum, and those home gardeners there know a thing or two. Ive taken as much from them, as I have here. 

If you really had to guess who the 'experts' are, you should take a look at who is bombarded with a million different products designed to increase our yield, and how you can't live without it. 

These nutrient companies are spending lots of money directed at us. They obviously wouldn't do so if it were not incredibly profitable. Makes you wonder who the smarter ones are: us or home gardeners?


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## riddleme (Aug 5, 2010)

And I would add that you can spot an expert by the simple fact they don't add to that profit margin but rather use regular garden nutes


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## HookdOnChronics (Aug 6, 2010)

Thankyou for the info Dave! Much appreciated!



riddleme said:


> And I would add that you can spot an expert by the simple fact they don't add to that profit margin but rather use regular garden nutes


Gotta agree with that!.. (Just because I use Miracle Grow, and that's it... lol) Im in no way, by any means, an expert tho! I jsut grow my plants, and keep em healthy! The KISS method's the shit! lol



anomolies said:


> eh... so you can't get these giant colas with Sativas then? I'm growing Aussie Blues and WW outdoors.


And this is just a pic of one of my Sativa's I have growing ATM. I guess not technically 'HUGH' colas. But they're fairly good size for a CFL grow. And that's a regualr sized bic lighter too.


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## anomolies (Aug 6, 2010)

HookdOnChronics said:


> Thankyou for the info Dave! Much appreciated!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


btw I've been using MG All Purpose as well. How many tsp do you add per gallon? I do 1 tsp/gal but I've been wondering if I could push it to 2 tsp/gal cus leaves are yellowing in early bloom.

I just tried the topping method recently on some plants stlil in veg, and the node spacing is like 3-4 inches apart.
I'll be lucky if I even get colas like yours. Do you have any pictures of the tops from the same plant before it went in flowering or early flowering? Or any idea of the node spacing?


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## jjfoo (Aug 6, 2010)

When you say 'us' what do you mean? Cannabis growers as a whole? I use ingredients purchased at a farm supply store to fertilize with. This is cheaper than using 'garden nutes'. But just because some people use off the shelf nutes from a hydro store doesn't make them less able to grow. There are many home gardners that no very little and some that do research and get great results.

Yes there are experts at gardenweb, too. I am not trying to put anyone down when I said 'typical gardner'. I'm just saying some of us have done years of research to get where we are at. While we are not all on the same level many of us here have great expertise in gardening.

As soon as someone starts gaining skills they are becoming an expert. There are levels of expertise and many of are making progress and would be considered experts by people with less knowledge.


I'd say it doesn't really matter what you use to grow but more on your skills and what kind of quality and yield you get. The proof is in the pudding.

If I was growing five plants I'd use something off the shelf with the NPK I want, if I was growing on a larger scale I'd mix my own nutes from the salts sold in bulk. I think it is more of what scale you grow at. There are people who use non cannabis nutes that do terrible jobs, too.


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## DaveCoulier (Aug 6, 2010)

I was referring to cannabis growers or want-to-be growers as a whole. 

I never said cannabis growers are incapable of growing at a high level. Im sure plenty can grow just as well as some fruit and veggie gardener. Its just that we as a whole, are considered gullible by nutrient companies, which is why I wouldn't be so quick to say were experts compared to a home gardener.


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## potpimp (Aug 7, 2010)

I absolutely agree Dave. There is a lot more to learn about plants, their botany, their individual needs, and the way they grow than what we learn from just one plant. As a person learns about *plants*, not just one plant, they start to see the "big picture"; they learn to read their plants and understand what they need and when they need it. It's the suckers that buy expensive "rocket fuel and snake oil" out of ignorance. I was one of those myself. Fortunately I've gone on to learn about plants - thanks in large part to Uncle Ben's threads.


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## riddleme (Aug 7, 2010)

When the salesman comes a knockin just ask him which one does Tapla use?


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## DaveCoulier (Aug 7, 2010)

potpimp said:


> I absolutely agree Dave. There is a lot more to learn about plants, their botany, their individual needs, and the way they grow than what we learn from just one plant. As a person learns about *plants*, not just one plant, they start to see the "big picture"; *they learn to read their plants and understand what they need and when they need it*. It's the suckers that buy expensive "rocket fuel and snake oil" out of ignorance. I was one of those myself. Fortunately I've gone on to learn about plants - thanks in large part to Uncle Ben's threads.


The bolded part is something I think too many of us dont do. It definitely wasn't something I did well on my first two grows. Now that I am on my 3rd grow, I am paying closer attention to what my plants are telling me and taking the correct steps to fix problems as best I can when they occur. Rather than just go, "Oh well someone on the forums said its normal, so Ill just let it happen."


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## jjfoo (Aug 8, 2010)

how does the source of your nutes determine expertise? An expert would be able to fertilize plants with a wide variety of nutes. Using what is available to get great results is a sign of an expert to me.

My only real point (I don't know how using cannabis nutes as any bearing on this), is that many people on this forum are getting great yields of high quality bud. There are different levels and facets of expertise. Maybe, I'm mistaken but it seems like some people here equate using cheap nutes to being an expert. I'm saying an expert can use cheap nutes but isn't required to.

By the way, this all stemed from a question about pruning to get large colas (isn't that the topic of this thread?) 

Any how, if you don't know what others are doing, don't just assume they can't grow like UB. I appreciate UB's comments, but he doesn't have a monopoly on growing skills.

I hope I am not coming across as rude. I sometimes do that when it not my intention.


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## DaveCoulier (Aug 8, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> how does the source of your nutes determine expertise? An expert would be able to fertilize plants with a wide variety of nutes. Using what is available to get great results is a sign of an expert to me.
> 
> My only real point (I don't know how using cannabis nutes as any bearing on this), is that many people on this forum are getting great yields of high quality bud. There are different levels and facets of expertise. Maybe, I'm mistaken but it seems like some people here equate using cheap nutes to being an expert. I'm saying an expert can use cheap nutes but isn't required to.
> 
> ...


Your seeing things that are not there. I thought my last reply to you would have clarified what I meant. This is just going round and round, and I dont feel like riding this merry go round anymore.


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## jjfoo (Aug 9, 2010)

If I have caused you to lose your patience with me, please forgive me. It is not my intention to put you down. I was simply challenging something. It seems like you don't want this discussion to continue.

I have gone on several walks and noted who in my neighborhood looks like they are trying to garden. Out of those people many of them have some nice yard plants and some yellowing. I have talked to some of them. Many of them do think like typical growers. They use super bloom phosphate stuff and have some crazy ideas that can easily be proven wrong.

Some number of people that are on this forum actually can maintain a room full of healthy plants. To people who can't those people are considered experts (rightfully so). If you asked me if I am an expert I would simply say something like, "not a day goes buy where I don't learn something new and I am constatnly gaining expertise". I don't feel this is arogant rather confident.

I don't like seeing people go unapreciated... Just seems ignorant to me to group cannabis growers.


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## riddleme (Aug 9, 2010)

I agree that it is wrong to group people, but it happens everyday in everyway, felons, jocks, goths, nerds, polititions, skinheads, alcoholics, stoners dude the list goes on and on and on

for what it is worth my earlier comment was meant to be a joke, this is UB's thread after all and he does not endorse the so called rocket fuels, I feel I helped fuel this debate somewhat, I do consider myself an expert but openly and freely admit I do not know everything and still learn and research


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## djbthunder (Aug 9, 2010)

uncle ben can you please give me some help on how to use your topping techinque??? i have tried to do this with my last 3 grows and I still cant get 4 main colas


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## potpimp (Aug 9, 2010)

Riddleme, I consider you an expert too, if that means anything. Jjfoo, I think UB & Dave's beef is the many people that blow huge sums of cash on expensive nutes such as Advanced Nutrients. I'm one of the suckers that fell for their slick marketing. I wasted well over $400 on their junk and the grow was no better than what $10 worth of "regular" nutes would have given me. They are just trying to help.

djbthunder, what are you doing wrong? Wait til your plant has 5-7 nodes, snip it off 1/2" above the second node and the plant does the rest. Some strains do not produce 4 main colas; some only produce 2 or 3 but most produce 4. You get what you get and either way it's better than one.


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## jjfoo (Aug 9, 2010)

I failed to communicate (not that you where trying to communicate with me, I know the orig post wasn't directed to me). I mistook your comment as serious. It *seemed* like a kiss ass remark that was saying we can't do what the guru does.

Just to be really clear, I'm not saying you are kissing ass. I'm saying I misunderstood.


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 11, 2010)

potpimp said:


> Riddleme, I consider you an expert too, if that means anything. Jjfoo, I think UB & Dave's beef is the many people that blow huge sums of cash on expensive nutes such as Advanced Nutrients. I'm one of the suckers that fell for their slick marketing. I wasted well over $400 on their junk and the grow was no better than what $10 worth of "regular" nutes would have given me. They are just trying to help.


FWIW, I'm growing a nice outdoor plant, 2 main dominant colas (and 2 recessive 2 main colas), with nothing more than off the shelf foods except for the high N Polyon (slow release encapsulated food) which is the same type product as Osmocote. I have lost alot of leaves due to insufficient water plus we're having high heat - my fault but I have bigger fish to fry than to worry about a pot plant. It gets watered when it gets watered. Walmart sells a Tomato food, something like a 18-18-20, that is working really well. Once in a while I'll remember to throw in a tsp. of it in a gallon of water.


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## HookdOnChronics (Aug 11, 2010)

anomolies said:


> btw I've been using MG All Purpose as well. How many tsp do you add per gallon? I do 1 tsp/gal but I've been wondering if I could push it to 2 tsp/gal cus leaves are yellowing in early bloom.
> 
> I just tried the topping method recently on some plants stlil in veg, and the node spacing is like 3-4 inches apart.
> I'll be lucky if I even get colas like yours. Do you have any pictures of the tops from the same plant before it went in flowering or early flowering? Or any idea of the node spacing?


At first I was scared to go full strength... But one strain I have eats a SHIT TONE and I can actually get away with using more than 2 tsp/gal. Just be careful, DON'T do it right away. Slowly work your way up to it. If you start to see burnt tips, ease off a bit.

Here is that same plant with those big buds - in veg, and earlier on in flower.

Sorry, not tryin to spam your shit UB.


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## gforgrow (Aug 11, 2010)

Hi

As you can see I grow 2 clones in a PC case

The last pic shows what i have in mind, 
so i need 2 colas in each plant...

... so i must cut above the 1st TRUE node.

My question is :

How i can find the 1st TRUE node in my clones ?

( is the 1st i can see or the 2nd ? )

Thanks


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## DaveCoulier (Aug 11, 2010)

You dont need to top above the first true node to get the desired effect. Just locate your two most dominant lateral branches and top above them. Now you'll have your two tops and can scrog to your hearts content.

This is what I do with my clones, and you'll easily get two tops, and often 4.


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## jjfoo (Aug 15, 2010)

gforgrow,

On rooted clipping all nodes are true nodes, first of all.

I grow from clippings and just pick three nodes (you can also pick two) and cut above them. In most cases I just top above the third node. You can top a clipping earlier than seed.

You may want to google 'subcool topping'. It is very similar to UB's style but he talks about the differences between seeds and clippings. Basically a seed needs to mature, where a clipping is mature and just needs to root.

here is one link: http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/content/subcools-topping-tips

I don't see any point in cutting above the first node. That would be starting over. You're single node would still need to be topped.

There are some posts earlier in this thread (I think) that talk about how hormones affect what colas become dominant. You don't need to know about this but it may be helpful.


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## 9867mike777 (Aug 16, 2010)

I just did this on three of my Blackjack seedlings. I did it a little sooner than you recommended. I think there was four possibly five nodes. A day later and they don't appear the worse for wear and tear. The two main outgrowths have already picked up and taken off. The reason I did this is because I am growing with some Northern Light, which I expect to be shorter, so I wanted to keep the Blackjack a little shorter. I also started some White Widow a week later. I'm going to top all of these. I've seen lots of pictures of topped White Widow. Nice and bushy with lots of colas.

UPDATE: one day later and it appears my seedlings are perfectly fine. The first two shoots on the top node are taking off. Hard to see if the bottom two are going to match the top two and give me four, but it might very well happen.


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## Yaaaldi (Aug 18, 2010)

my plants are in this thread here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/358835-how-do-my-babies-look.html#post4528456

am I to late/early to do this technique? could anybody point out where I should cut

thanks


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## 9867mike777 (Aug 18, 2010)

Yaaaldi said:


> my plants are in this thread here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/358835-how-do-my-babies-look.html#post4528456
> 
> am I to late/early to do this technique? could anybody point out where I should cut
> 
> thanks


 It looks like yours only has three nodes. You need five or six, although I did it at four on one plant and it worked. The guide at the beginning explains clearly where to cut.


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## Yaaaldi (Aug 18, 2010)

does this technique almost aways guarantee a better yield? its my first grow and I'm pretty tempted to try this out on one of my plants. does it matter that they are autos?

are there any downsides?


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## Danielsgb (Aug 18, 2010)

Yaaaldi said:


> my plants are in this thread here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/358835-how-do-my-babies-look.html#post4528456
> 
> am I to late/early to do this technique? could anybody point out where I should cut
> 
> thanks


Those are auto flowering right? Does it work with an AF? Too early to me if it works on AF.
Daniels


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## potpimp (Aug 18, 2010)

Daniel, it does work with AF but I don't know if the stress is worth it. Yes you will get 4 colas but from my experience, autos STOP growing - even if they are only 3" tall - when they get stressed.


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## Yaaaldi (Aug 18, 2010)

hmm so for my first grow with autos this is probably not recommended? dont wanna end up with hermies.


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## rastakolnikov (Aug 18, 2010)

also with auto's you probably don't wanna chop off 4 nodes of growth, because its not like you can just veg them longer to make up for the loss


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## swann (Aug 18, 2010)

please can someone help me, i've got this beautiful aurora indica that looks weird, its a week into flowering and this is what it looks like, its in the optimal growing conditions under a 400 w hps with 6 cfls for boost. is it a hermi or a male?


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## riddleme (Aug 18, 2010)

swann said:


> please can someone help me, i've got this beautiful aurora indica that looks weird, its a week into flowering and this is what it looks like, its in the optimal growing conditions under a 400 w hps with 6 cfls for boost. is it a hermi or a male?


don't see anything wrong? and it is not showing sex yet, which "can" be a good thing as males usually show before females


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## swann (Aug 18, 2010)

i'll put up some more pics, but thanx for the info.


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## 9867mike777 (Aug 18, 2010)

I think Uncle Ben is right, this doesn't really stress healthy plants. It just sets it back a few days at most. I didn't really follow his advice about waiting for five or six nodes to cut. I knew that if I waited that long, I would be cutting too much leaf off and it would bug me. So I did it when there was four nodes, maybe close to five. This way I didn't cut too much leaf (and stress me out.) I would say it took a couple of days to start looking good again. In the wild, getting the top shoot bit off probably happens quite a bit. I think this "weed" knows precisely what to do if this happens, which is turn the top bud into Siamese twins, or hopefully quadruplets. For someone like me with a UFO and a bunch of CFL, this will make it easier for me to keep more tops close to the lights.


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## yeah man tastes of lemon (Aug 19, 2010)

Hi, I am just starting veg phase of my first grow, plants are barney's red dragon, mostly indica from a friend's super female, I have a question about how the four cola topping technique applys to my plants. I read first 10 pages of this topic and am confused over what to do with one of my babies, pictures hopefully will help.



My concern is that one of the plants seems to have split itself into 2 already, should I leave this one and try the four cola technique on the other with the single stalk?, very interesting time reading what you guys have said so far and advanced thanks to anyone with some advice for me.


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## swann (Aug 19, 2010)

heres some more pics of the possible hermi, i swear it looks like balls but the plant itself does not resemble a male plant is it just a pheno type and im just being paranoid or is it a hermi, any info is much appreciated.


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## DaveCoulier (Aug 19, 2010)

Swann, it looks like you have a boy to me. Its hard to tell from the pictures though. You'll know for sure within a week.

Now onto, "itself does not resemble a male plant". Male plants and females are indistinguishable during veg until they show preflowers, so I wouldn't assume just because it looks one way it must be a male or female. 


Yeah Man, I had a plant that auto topped itself for two tops. I decided just to leave it as is, and top the rest as normal. Its your call if you want to top it though.


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## swann (Aug 20, 2010)

well see how it looks like bud sites and then the balls, could it be a hermi?


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## 9867mike777 (Aug 20, 2010)

swann said:


> well see how it looks like bud sites and then the balls, could it be a hermi?


 It looks too early to tell the gender.


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## DaveCoulier (Aug 20, 2010)

swann said:


> well see how it looks like bud sites and then the balls, could it be a hermi?


Its not a hermie. Your plant is barely showing sex, and Ive never seen a hermie occur this early. Plus you dont even have any buds forming yet, so why are you so keen on thinking its a hermie? 

Male preflowers will show in the same area that female preflowers occur. Just wait a week, and you'll know for sure, but I think you should probably start another seed if this is your only plant, as there appear to be male preflowers showing in a couple of the pics.


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## greenthings (Aug 20, 2010)

maybe i missed this along the thread but can the 4 colas be made on autoflowers?


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## Danielsgb (Aug 20, 2010)

Look back a bit. but yes. But not good idea.


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## DaveCoulier (Aug 20, 2010)

greenthings said:


> maybe i missed this along the thread but can the 4 colas be made on autoflowers?


Probably best not to top autoflowers since you really can't give them extra time to veg before flowering. Super cropping or lst'ing would be best.


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## mydixiewrecked (Aug 20, 2010)

swann said:


> well see how it looks like bud sites and then the balls, could it be a hermi?


wait till you see either little white hairs sticking out(pistils) or little footballs. I just sexed some plants, took a little more then a week under 12/12 before they showed, when I saw the pistils, Right back to veg, they took off like they never missed a beat, and I got 4 out 5 hot mama's


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## Ganja Geek (Aug 20, 2010)

mydixiewrecked said:


> wait till you see either little white hairs sticking out(pistils) or little footballs. I just sexed some plants, took a little more then a week under 12/12 before they showed, when I saw the pistils, Right back to veg, they took off like they never missed a beat, and I got 4 out 5 hot mama's


I to used to use this sexing method. It's much better to clone for sex. Theirs no stop, stress, or streach to the mother plants. They keep growing completly uneffected. Unless of course u take it from the top of the plant.


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## lefreq (Aug 24, 2010)

hey UB big love m8 gd reading..... i notice most your grow are sativa dom and u say u came up with this technique to combat height probs, whats your experience with growing idica dom i currently have 8 indica dom babys goin but i have like 7ft headroom with strains that max out at 130cm so would u recomend topping at all i have a few years growing exp and have usually topped at 5 node but ive always been restricted by height also untill now that is i just finished 3 exodus cheese but they had cut taken from all over so were well bushy anyway....lol sorry to go on stoned moment haha my question basically is what u rekomend for my indica dom cheese crosses TO TOP....OR NOT TO TOP??? im thunkin just let um grow out and go for the trophy 2.5 o buds??????

le freq x


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 24, 2010)

lefreq said:


> hey UB big love m8 gd reading..... i notice most your grow are sativa dom and u say u came up with this technique to combat height probs, whats your experience with growing idica dom i currently have 8 indica dom babys goin but i have like 7ft headroom with strains that max out at 130cm so would u recomend topping at all i have a few years growing exp and have usually topped at 5 node but ive always been restricted by height also untill now that is i just finished 3 exodus cheese but they had cut taken from all over so were well bushy anyway....lol sorry to go on stoned moment haha my question basically is what u rekomend for my indica dom cheese crosses TO TOP....OR NOT TO TOP??? im thunkin just let um grow out and go for the trophy 2.5 o buds??????
> 
> le freq x


I've done both, your call based on your garden's footprint limitations.


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## lefreq (Aug 24, 2010)

footprint is 1.2 x 1.2 usin a 1000w and 8 plants in 11ltr pots??


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## StonedBlownSkiller (Aug 24, 2010)

I found that when I used UBs method with my sativa dom it got 4 colas almost instantly(couple days) and grew them all quickly and evenly. The indica dom shot out 2 quickly and when they got bigger, like two weeks later, here came 2 more growin slowly, and smaller.


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## lefreq (Aug 24, 2010)

so mabe just let them grow would be best plan i prefer S.O.B anyway as UB said earlier sea of bush not bothered about gram per what or yield just healthy is all


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## StonedBlownSkiller (Aug 24, 2010)

lefreq said:


> so mabe just let them grow would be best plan i prefer S.O.B anyway as UB said earlier sea of bush not bothered about gram per what or yield just healthy is all


Hows this for healthy......thx again UB


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## lefreq (Aug 24, 2010)

yeah there lookin nice m8..... i just dont see any imediate benefits unless ya restricted by height or you have a tall strain such as most sativas or if you only have say 3 or 4 plants per m2 mabe????


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## 9867mike777 (Aug 25, 2010)

Here is my Nirvana Blackjack ten days after topping. I topped this really early, when it was 14 days from planting the seed. The plant looks really healthy, I'm just wondering when the four main offshoots will start going straight up instead of sideways.


Out of four blackjacks I have growing, I topped three of them. What I am learning is that this strain is naturally bushy, so it might not need topping. I mainly did it to keep it shorter to match my Northern Light (below.)


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## 7thtoker (Aug 26, 2010)

dude way sick.


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## 9867mike777 (Aug 26, 2010)

Here are a couple of hopefully better pictures of my topped Blackjack. It is exactly 24 days from the seed being planted. It is 11 days from when I topped. If you were so inclined, you could drop a CFL right down in the middle of this plant.


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## SysKonfig (Aug 26, 2010)

So does this method increase yield, or does it just allow you to achieve the same yield using less space? Cause like lefreq I am not really limited too much by vertical space and am already growing indica dom plants. So will I get more yield doing this or letting them just grow?


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## purplehazin (Aug 26, 2010)

SysKonfig said:


> So does this method increase yield, or does it just allow you to achieve the same yield using less space? Cause like lefreq I am not really limited too much by vertical space and am already growing indica dom plants. So will I get more yield doing this or letting them just grow?


I havent finished it yet, but 1 plant I topped will definitely yield more than if I wouldnt have topped it. As for height, it doesnt really make the plant shorter if you veg it out a bit longer


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## lefreq (Aug 27, 2010)

i see your point but then i have to veg longer so if i just veg a bit longer without toppin id get better yield anyway!! i get what its about tho that u get 4 MAIN colas as the hormones only have 2 nodes to leak into makin them all MAIN istead of just side colas but im still a bit sceptical on doin it unless i have height issues 

i had 2 exodus cheese last year one had loads of cuts taken and was bushy as fuck and one was a cut that never got touched no topping at all they both yielded 1 3\4 oz about 2 grams difference just the bushy one was all popcorn bud no bigger than a henry dry! and the other was just made up of about 7 buds 

so to say a topped plant will yield more im not intirely sold on that i think it yields the same just in a shorter height and wider area say 4 plants in a 1.2m under a 600 id have done it by now but i think havin 8 im going to be pushin it with floor space as it is????????


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## Danielsgb (Aug 27, 2010)

I got about 7g to 10g more off the one I topped for 4 colas than the other 2 plants. I'm doing this to all of mine now.
Daniels


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## DaveCoulier (Aug 27, 2010)

lefreq said:


> i see your point but then i have to veg longer so if i just veg a bit longer without toppin id get better yield anyway!! i get what its about tho that u get 4 MAIN colas as the hormones only have 2 nodes to leak into makin them all MAIN istead of just side colas but im still a bit sceptical on doin it unless i have height issues
> 
> i had 2 exodus cheese last year one had loads of cuts taken and was bushy as fuck and one was a cut that never got touched no topping at all they both yielded 1 3\4 oz about 2 grams difference just the bushy one was all popcorn bud no bigger than a henry dry! and the other was just made up of about 7 buds
> 
> so to say a topped plant will yield more im not intirely sold on that i think it yields the same just in a shorter height and wider area say 4 plants in a 1.2m under a 600 id have done it by now but i think havin 8 im going to be pushin it with floor space as it is????????


Lefreq, I have two Jack the Ripper clones in flower right now. One is topped, and the other is untopped. They both were cloned at same time, and flowered at the same time. I expect in 4-5 weeks they will be ready to harvest, and I can do a comparison for weight, but It looks like the topped plant will yield better.


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## okayimreloaded (Sep 3, 2010)

what is a node???


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## smithyboi (Sep 3, 2010)

can some one pleaseeee show me in a picture or a good explination where u actually top them? am i right in thinking that you wait until they have 6 nodes (the 'Y') kind of things, and then go all the way down to the second one that formed, and cut it off? below or above the node?


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## DaveCoulier (Sep 3, 2010)

I know its a long thread, and no one likes reading through every page to find their answers, but if you use the search function you'll find them easier. Just as much as you hate to read through so many pages, we hate to have the same question asked repeatedly every few pages.


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## alsandair (Sep 6, 2010)

just wanting to know. how many weeks into veg do u normaly top to get best results.. cuz mine at like 5 nodes without counting the catlyst node do i top now or wait a lil longer to have more nodes because the plants aint that tall maybe 6 to 7 inches if im lucky.


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## DaveCoulier (Sep 6, 2010)

alsandair said:


> just wanting to know. how many weeks into veg do u normaly top to get best results.. cuz mine at like 5 nodes without counting the catlyst node do i top now or wait a lil longer to have more nodes because the plants aint that tall maybe 6 to 7 inches if im lucky.


It would be best to top now if you are looking for possibly four main colas. I typically top around 14 or so days. You can top sooner if your plant is growing quickly though. 5 nodes would be a good number, so go ahead and top now.


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## atomicronick (Sep 6, 2010)

good info ben. much apretiated. I like how you kept it real here and didnt ripp on other people`s setups.... here it is....



It really doesn't matter what you use as long as you're growing plenty of foliage and keeping it green, healthy, and abundant until harvest. Some of my best results were using a HPS ONLY from start to finish. There is alot of hype when it comes to light spectrums. I have found in spite of all the ditties on spectrums, professional and otherwise, that the plant just doesn't care. Do the experiment. Grow a garden with only a HPS or MH, see for yourself. They are both full spectrum plants. The manufacturers and their vendors are only in it for the money, so they'll push this and that, conversion ballasts, all kinds of crap, etc. My best and most efficient hood is an old Diamond Lights, SMALL horizontal hood with a gull wing insert which I retrofitted with some very high quality, super shiny, spectral material using a drill and a rivet gun. I also built my own ballast box using parts and a junction box to house them in.


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## GIFTEDGARDNER (Sep 6, 2010)

Two questions? 

1. How long did you veg and flower the plant from page 1?

2. My clones having staggering nodes, there are not two opposite each other. Will this cause the plant to NOT produce 4 main colas?

Thank you!


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## Serapis (Sep 6, 2010)

alsandair said:


> just wanting to know. how many weeks into veg do u normaly top to get best results.. cuz mine at like 5 nodes without counting the catlyst node do i top now or wait a lil longer to have more nodes because the plants aint that tall maybe 6 to 7 inches if im lucky.


I top when I can clearly count 4-5 true nodes. (the first set with single tip leaves doesn't count.) Within 2 days, you'll see the side growth begin to stand up and a translucent green ball forms at it's stem to strengthen them. About 4-6 days later, if you look carefully, the seconf node also begins to do the same thing and form thicker stems that start to curve upward.

It was hard to top at first, I was like wtf am I cutting off 2-3 good nodes? If you need too, go back and look at UB's pictures again for motivation. Topping IS WORTH it. So what if it adds a week or two to your veg cycle. You'll love it on harvest day! I'll take 4 colas to one any day.


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## Serapis (Sep 6, 2010)

GIFTEDGARDNER said:


> Two questions?
> 
> 1. How long did you veg and flower the plant from page 1?
> 
> ...


If your plant is producing just one stem per node, it will give you two colas.


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## lefreq (Sep 7, 2010)

Well I thought I'd just give it a go can't hurt can it I'm open to new methods and the only way your truely going to find out if there benefitial is try it eh! UB obv got a few grows under his belt so must know what he's talkin about I'm willing to take his advice and come to my own conclusion I've topped 6 out of 7 of my cheesus and bubble cheese just left the one to compare! They all seem to have 4 strong colas pushin through all the same size aswell no 2 colas than 2 lil ones!


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## 9867mike777 (Sep 7, 2010)

OK, here is a negative to the topping. Once you top it, and the plant turns into a bushy four cola beauty, inevitably one the beauties ends up being a dude. It just happened to me. Heartbreaking, this Blackjack had a huge amount of potential bud sites. Luckily another sibling, almost as pretty, is a girl. I'm going to put one branch off the male into some water and collect some pollen. Maybe incite a little brother sister commingling of chromosomes. It is a gorgeous little bushy sativa plant.


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## potpimp (Sep 8, 2010)

Hmmmmm... something else caused that. I've topped about 40 plants this year and have not had one go hermie. Just chopped one yesterday with 4 beautiful colas.


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## DirtyHashish (Sep 8, 2010)

Hey guys, this is my first grow and my plant is about 1 month into budding...Is it too late to top the plant? The buds look about half mature so I feel that I missed the boat on that one. 

Also...how late into the bud cycle can you prune the leaves as well as lollipop the plant (trimming the bottom fan leaves)?

THANK YOU!


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## rastakolnikov (Sep 8, 2010)

Oh dear...

Someone hasn't read this thread (or anything posted by uncle ben)


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## riddleme (Sep 8, 2010)

DirtyHashish said:


> Hey guys, this is my first grow and my plant is about 1 month into budding...Is it too late to top the plant? The buds look about half mature so I feel that I missed the boat on that one.
> 
> Also...how late into the bud cycle can you prune the leaves as well as lollipop the plant (trimming the bottom fan leaves)?
> 
> THANK YOU!


yes to late to top unless you want to stunt it and reduce your yield

and we don't mention the L word in this thread


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## oAUSTiNo (Sep 8, 2010)

i just toppe dmine about a week ago- i should have 6 colas! 
but can i top the ones that just started growing again? and again and again?


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## riddleme (Sep 8, 2010)

oAUSTiNo said:


> i just toppe dmine about a week ago- i should have 6 colas!
> but can i top the ones that just started growing again? and again and again?


you can top as much as you like, a) you will get a bit of stunting (growth) each time (varies with strains) and b) you will get a bush
it is a great way to learn would only do it to one


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## manditroy (Sep 9, 2010)

UB -I've read the first 35 pages (so far) on your topping thread...sounds like you are the man to come to when you need good reliable info! Anyway, I will be starting my very first grow any day now - waiting for seeds to arrive and preparing my grow closet. I've ordered autoflowering Short Riders from Nirvana, and since I know very little about growing (just what I've been able to learn in many hours of the past ten days of nightly reading), I was hoping for your opinion on topping for 4 colas on these autoflowering plants. From what I've read, if they react as intended, they will start to flower when they choose to, independent of a 12/12 light schedule. This makes me question if topping is a good idea, since I may not get the growth back in the weeks after if it decides to move to the flowering stage. I know that keeping a longer day would keep the vegetative stage going in regular plants, so I could grow to my desired height before encouraging the flowering - but do you know much about what to expect from my Short Rider hybrid if it wants to flower before the topped part has time to regrow? Could I stop it with a 24 hour light schedule, or would I just be SOOL? And while I'm bugging you, do I need to add peat/compost to my MG potting mix, although it claims to be formulated to feed for up to 6 months (and has many of the things I've read listed in soil mix recipes)? Thanks for your time and any help you can give me. I've been slapping that rep button for you as much as it will let me.


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## weedstock2010 (Sep 9, 2010)

why not just tie your plant down I've never done it before but ive seen pictures and can you not get 2-4 main colas on every main branch you tie down? that sounds like alot more main colas


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 9, 2010)

You treat an auto-flowering plant the same way as a regular one. Just because a plant is in a flowering mode doesn't mean it doesn't produce foliage and other plant material. I've done outdoor auto-flowering from seeds, talking about flowering in April when it should be August, and the plant ended up about 5' tall with 4 main colas with a wheelbarrow full of colas/branches. Just a little advice, if you haven't grown anything before you're at a huge disadvantage compared to someone who has grown plants for some time. Give and treat your plants the same way you would a tomato plant and you'll do fine. Learn to read them.

If there is something in peat/compost that you think is lacking in your commercial mix then add some - won't hurt unless the compost is "hot" regarding salts content. 

Good luck,
UB


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## genuity (Sep 9, 2010)

hey UB!!i have this tripod plant,or what ever you want to call it.

i was just wondering what you would do with it??
could i keep this as an mother plant?
will this trait be pass on if i chose too breed with it?
sorry for all the Q's.


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## Knickers (Sep 9, 2010)

It usually grows out once matured with staggered nodes IIRC.


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## genuity (Sep 9, 2010)

Knickers said:


> It usually grows out once matured with staggered nodes IIRC.


hope so!!cause its on its 7th node,and is still puttin them out.


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## potpimp (Sep 9, 2010)

Man that's the perfect plant for taking clones, LOL. Uncle Ben, what strain of autos did you get that wheelbarrow of buds from? BTW, that photo is burned into my memory!!


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## Oldgrowth (Sep 9, 2010)

On topping your plants&#8230;..I used this method 30 years ago! 
A brief history. I started with clones and was placing over a hundred clones under a 1000 watt hps and flowering immediately. I would get one bud per plant. And yield just over a pound a light every 7 1/2-8 weeks. As you can imagine 100&#8217;s of clones were a lot of work!
Next I took clones (remember they were under fluorescents for 8 weeks, 2 weeks to root and 6 weeks to get started. I was growing a very indica skunky strain, very short intranodal distance. This strain if left to it self would grow side branches as tall and sometimes taller than the main stalk.
I would transplant these to 5 gallon pots and grow then under a 1000 watt hps for 1 ½- 2 weeks at 16/8 hours a day.
I waited till they had 6 strong branches growing not counting bottom two. They would be 7-10 inches tall at this point. I would one cutting off the main stem and 2 more from the top 2 branches. This gave me 3 cuttings per plant and with a 60-80% survival rate on my clones I always had plenty for the next crop. 
This gave me 4 main branches on each plant. 9 plants under each light, I was running 4 1000 watt hps. Each covered a 5&#8217; x 5&#8217; area. I use homemade reflectors made of a 5 foot square pvc pipe frame wired to a stainless steel bowl that my socket was mounted in . Then these were covered in mylar and looked like a pyramid. I covered the walls with mylar too. At 3 weeks into budding no light would hit the grow room floor and the leaves were huge!
This strain flowers quickly and I would pinch smaller buds that were separate on the bottom of each branch till I was satisfied each branch would grow one solid bud. I realized early that the most potent smoke came from buds in the top layer of light. I would have a very even layer of plants that would completely fill the space. All the buds would be in the best light! Once again I would yield a bit over a pound per light! A lot less work than 100&#8217;s of clones but same yield at the expense of 2 more weeks in the cycle. Bud quality was greatly improved with ½ ounce rock hard buds common. 
I ran a free standing room heater converted to propane that was very clean burning for co2 generation. This room was 15 x 15. I rigged the heater to a thermostat and would run till the temp hit 83 degrees and then would shut off and an exhaust blower would cool the room to 74 degrees and the heater would fire up and run the cycle again. Ran heater only when lights were on. I ran lights at night to keep overheating to a min. I had several oscillating fans that would shake the plants and had very sturdy branches that required no support. The main stem at harvest would be ¾ of an inch around on these 2 foot plants. No co2 monitor I just ran it this way.
I used peters 15-15-15 nutrient exclusively and discontinued fert 3 weeks from finish and just gave plain water. Wish I had known of bloom boosters then! I used this at ¼ the recommended dose for indoor plants on the package. I watered every 3 days and every 4th was plain water.
So now every 9 weeks I harvested 4 ½ pounds of stinky, sticky, covered in resin hard buds of skunk weed.
Ive been reading in Uncle Bens posts. I think he does an great job explaining the topping method. I did this to keep the buds in the best light and save myself a ton of work. I believe a plant will yield more left untopped but indoors there will be a lot of less potent buds in the mix. Outdoor my belief is left untouched will provide the highest yield.
So there is my tale of my indoor grow from 30 years ago.
By the way things were a lot different back then. At harvest I would pack those pounds in seal a meal and wipe them down with alcohol and then bag them again in seal a meal and wipe down again with alcohol and clean my hands between each stage too. I put all this in a samsonite hard locking suitcase and fly to California and hand the case to a friend and a day or two later he would hand me cash and back home on the plane. Never had a problem and I flew every 9 weeks for 3 years! 
There that&#8217;s my first post hope you enjoy it!


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 9, 2010)

genuity said:


> hey UB!!i have this tripod plant,or what ever you want to call it.
> 
> i was just wondering what you would do with it??


Smoke it! I'd top/grow it as usual. Guess you could always root the cuttings.



potpimp said:


> Man that's the perfect plant for taking clones, LOL. Uncle Ben, what strain of autos did you get that wheelbarrow of buds from? BTW, that photo is burned into my memory!!


It was a cross I made of Sensi Skunk and Positronics Jack Herer but the C99 backcross I'm growing now did the same thing, flowered long before it should. Guess there is more rudy genes floating around than I thought.

Oldgrowth, sounds like fun and a great source for tax free income, yowzer! Welcome to the thread.

UB


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## potpimp (Sep 9, 2010)

What a great story Oldgrowth! Welcome to the forum!


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## potpimp (Sep 9, 2010)

It works on clones too Blueberry. UB does indeed rock!!


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## Danielsgb (Sep 9, 2010)

blueberry dro said:


> Potpimp thanks bra!! Any help on my other questions? Anybody?..thanks...I really need this info guys!


I top my clones every time now. Clone like normal. They need to get a root system going. If you wait for the clone to get 5 or 6 nodes, then top you should be OK. The perfect 4 main colas doesn't always work, but clones have alternating nodes a lot. For me anyway, they do. Once I thought of it like pruning apple trees or Bonsai it made more sense. Hope that helps till Dave or UB (or RM3) get to it. 
Daniels

Great story OldGrowth I think you have a lot to teach us. thx


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## Danielsgb (Sep 10, 2010)

blueberry dro said:


> Does this defeat the purpose of topping at 2 nodes?


I really think you should start at the beginning and read 20 to 30 pages Googleing terms you don't know. I'm not trying to be a dick, really. This question is asked even a ways back. I think, I answered it before too . Why did I say wait for 5 or 6 nodes?
Daniels


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## 9867mike777 (Sep 10, 2010)

If your plant is bigger, you might want to FIMmng the top leaves instead of topping. There is a sticky in this group that describes how to do this.


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## rastakolnikov (Sep 10, 2010)

Then why bother posting?


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## lefreq (Sep 11, 2010)

hey UB 
Using this method how tall would you let them get inchewise before you flower? I dont really have to worry bout headroom too much but big buddha rekons they max out at 120cm which is roughly 47 inches so what do you think let them go till about 20inches ???????? There about 12 inch at the mo all with 4 nice strong colas def rating this method so far i am nearlly conerted hahaha so big kiss for ya anyway UB X


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## lefreq (Sep 11, 2010)

converted lol


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## lefreq (Sep 11, 2010)

sorry stoned post moment there indica dom cheesus and bubble cheese feminised frim big buddha xx


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## GIFTEDGARDNER (Sep 11, 2010)

GIFTEDGARDNER said:


> Two questions?
> 
> 1. How long did you veg and flower the plant from page 1?
> 
> ...





I made the mistake of topping after the 5th or 6th node, but not cutting above the second. i cut right at 5 or 6. then as soon as I got new growth I fimmed them. on most i am getting 3 main stems. Some 2 stems and some even have 4 or 5. I threw them into flowering 2 days ago so hopefully they will all turn into big fat ass colas..


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## plaguedog (Sep 11, 2010)

IIm sure it has been said somewhere in this thread, but I like to top four the 4 main colas, then tie them down, you end up with about 8-10 tops all at the same height which works well for smaller grow lights like CFL's or low watt HID's.


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## ninjadam (Sep 11, 2010)

can you top so there are 4 and then top it agian to get even more top colas? 
Side question - what are some ideal temperatures for vegging and for flowering


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## 2footbuds (Sep 11, 2010)

woomeister has a good, true point. on my first grow i had 1 100 watt hps for floweringover 2 plants and flowering took about 4 months. it took so long, the female plants started to fertilize themselves and make seeds. on my second i had a 400 watt hps and flowering took maybe a month and a half. with much denser buds, and it was the same strain, and about the same height. ive topped before, and maybe i did it wrong, but the 2 buds put together weighed almost the same as an identical plant that i didnt top's one bud.
im not saying topping dosnt help, because it was my first grow, i waited til maybe the 10th node. but human intervention definitly will lengthen the flowering time. 
my point is, try to make ur grow as natural as possible.try organics maybe? i will top again on my current grow and in a few months, check for a thread by me and ill post pics on the yeild of a topped plant and a non-topped plant.


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## BluffinCali (Sep 11, 2010)

Yeah Ive found the best way is to grow to 7 nodes, top at the 2nd node and then tie down for an even canopy with 4 dominant colas, it yields more, not to mention the plant just looks so much more bad ass, peace every1


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## anomolies (Sep 11, 2010)

I'm starting to wonder if topping or any kind of training is all that great. I've been seeing a bunch of untopped outdoor plants on the forum that have 10+ or 20+ huge 15-20inch colas. Is topping useless for outdoors?


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## Serapis (Sep 11, 2010)

I have four main stems going since I topped my plants. Side growth has gone nuts and I have four thick stems curling upward with more nodes popping. The plants look great. I had to slightly increase nutes because with 4 main stems going, it requires more energy.

Check out my pic of a runt that was topped about 10 days ago. You can see the 4 main stems growing and no more growth from the center. It has transferred to the 4 colas.

Naturally, this plant needs more nutrition, it is growing 4 tops!


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## BluffinCali (Sep 12, 2010)

Theres alot of old timers that will swear by not touching your plants at all, dont even pick off dead leaves. My friend and I have a sizeable outdoor medical garden, we've been growing outdoors for almost 10years now, so between us both we have tried alot of different techniques. Alot of it depends on the strain and how it grows, what and how it responds to a given technique and what your trying to accomplish. Ive taken the same strain and let it grow and do its thing, while pinching(fim'ing) the shit out of other ones and besides the look Ive never noticed any sort of signifigant difference or patterns in the yield. For me the most important factor for outdoor plants is the having the garden where it will recieve the absolute most sunlight possible, while also providing the plant with the most space for its roots to spread and giving it the maximum amount of food that the particular strain can handle, so alot is strain specific. Ive always dug big ass holes and back filled them with my own blend of organic's or soil compounds, but Im quickly becoming a much bigger fan of 100% organic grows cause the biggest plants Ive seen are always pure organic, and Im talking about 10+lb plants, huge 15ft monster bushes. I saw a picture of the biggest plant of the year last year, over 17lbs of dried product, never could find out the strain, trust me I tried everything I could to try and figure it out with no success, I believe it was in an issue of high times but I could be wrong. One thing for sure is I do alot more training, topping, fimming etc. for plants indoors to maximize space, but Ive only been growing indoors for almost 2yrs now and Im just now getting everything dialed to where it needs to be, although I just lost a cycle to mites that I battled for weeks before I finally threw in the towel, so now Im remodeling and adding on, so I'll eventually have over double the sq. footage I do now, plus a seperate vegging room, so I can have a true perpetual garden going, instead of grow tents and closets.


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## BluffinCali (Sep 12, 2010)

Forgot about super cropping, that is far and away my newest favorite technique to play around with mainly indoors, but its so simple yet absolutely genius, if for some reason you dont know what super cropping is by all means look it up, theres a few different techniques by either squeezing or twisting, both work fine, but Ive snapped few branches during my learnig process, my buddy calls me "Lenny" from "of mice and men" cause Im kinda rough with the girls, but we all know how resiliant these bitches are, lol.


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## plaguedog (Sep 12, 2010)

Topping really is a training technique that is to be used indoors. Ben has pointed out he came up with his method to control the height issues people run into when growing Sativa's. Outdoors it really probably isn't necessary. I wouldn't say it is useless for outdoors as you can train a plant wherever it grows, just makes a little more sense when you are talking about growing plants that like to get 5-6 feet tall indoors....


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## plaguedog (Sep 12, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I have four main stems going since I topped my plants. Side growth has gone nuts and I have four thick stems curling upward with more nodes popping. The plants look great. I had to slightly increase nutes because with 4 main stems going, it requires more energy.
> 
> Check out my pic of a runt that was topped about 10 days ago. You can see the 4 main stems growing and no more growth from the center. It has transferred to the 4 colas.
> 
> Naturally, this plant needs more nutrition, it is growing 4 tops!



Now you should tie those main shoots down and watch the growth in the middle of the plant explode into 6-8 main shoots, all being the same height.


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## 9867mike777 (Sep 13, 2010)

One advantage of topping is you end up with two opposing tops, kind of like a twin towers. If you tie some string between the two, they will support each other. No need for poles to keep them upright. If you get four, you can even loop them all together. These are the perfect support for each other because they are exactly opposing in direction of lean.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 14, 2010)

plaguedog said:


> Topping really is a training technique that is to be used indoors. Ben has pointed out he came up with his method to control the height issues people run into when growing Sativa's. Outdoors it really probably isn't necessary. I wouldn't say it is useless for outdoors as you can train a plant wherever it grows, just makes a little more sense when you are talking about growing plants that like to get 5-6 feet tall indoors....


I've made it a habit to top for 4 main colas, inside or out. My outdoor plant is finishing around 5' including the height of the pot.

Best way to support the 4 colas is with a strip of women's hose wrapped loosely around the perimeter of the plant, tied here and there with twist-ties.


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## Schotzky (Sep 15, 2010)

check out what i did, i did this exact same technique and look what i got  
View attachment 1158904View attachment 1158905View attachment 1158906View attachment 1158907View attachment 1158909View attachment 1158910View attachment 1158911View attachment 1158912View attachment 1158913View attachment 1158914


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## plaguedog (Sep 15, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> I've made it a habit to top for 4 main colas, inside or out. My outdoor plant is finishing around 5' including the height of the pot.
> 
> Best way to support the 4 colas is with a strip of women's hose wrapped loosely around the perimeter of the plant, tied here and there with twist-ties.


ud filles

Thats awesome really, they must be some nice bushy filled stalks!


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 16, 2010)

Doin' fine my friend.


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## daisydobey (Sep 17, 2010)

i just topped my nothern lights and jock horror, suppsoed to be autos but i dont think they are... by nirvana... anyways

take a look, and tell me if i did this right, first time i ever topped

View attachment 1161490View attachment 1161491View attachment 1161492View attachment 1161493


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## DaveCoulier (Sep 17, 2010)

Looks like a good topping to me. I can't quite tell how high you topped, but all looks good. 

Oh how, I miss that first topping I did. Your so nervous that you're going to fuck it up some how and mangle your beautiful baby. Eventually, topping will become routine, so enjoy that special feeling now while you can.


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## daisydobey (Sep 17, 2010)

=D I am enjoying it! thanks!!! they are 6.5" inches tall after topping was 7" or so


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## anomolies (Sep 17, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> I've made it a habit to top for 4 main colas, inside or out. My outdoor plant is finishing around 5' including the height of the pot.
> 
> Best way to support the 4 colas is with a strip of women's hose wrapped loosely around the perimeter of the plant, tied here and there with twist-ties.


Hey Ben, do you mind posting some pictures of your 5' monsters? I've went through 150+ pages of this thread and haven't seen a single picture from you other than the ones on the 1st page.
Wish there was a thread tool to look at the pictures only...

I'm wondering what's the benefit of topping for 4 colas outdoors because I see so many untrained or LST'ed outdoor plants that have like 50+ colas 12-24" in length, and here I am with only 4 colas 12-24" inch in length... blows my mind.


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## KlosetKing (Sep 17, 2010)

thought id drop a line and show the results i got with bens tech. worked out great, though next time around ill probably do a little more under-branch pruning to try to control my results a little more.




i wanted to know how leaving the coty nodes on would effect the cola results, so 2 plants were planned as 2 toppers (one with coty nodes, one without) and the third was supposed to be 4 tops (left the coty nodes just because on it). heres a few details about them that made me want to control the branches more next time:

pic 1 - this was supposed to be the 2 top WITH the coty node still intact. well, one of the branches on that coty node caught some auxins, and it turned into a 3 head.
pic 2 - this was gunna be the 4 header. well, one branch just never got as mature as the other 3, so it ended up mainly just a 3 top. if you notice the cola on the left of the pic, its a bit bulkier and mishapen than the others. early on in flower it stretched to the light overnight and burned it. it was stunted for about a week, then started putting on weight twice as fast as the other 2.
pic 3 - this was the double that i removed the lower coty branches off of. came out exactly as intended, 2 tops, no retarded branches of any sort, and even looks more lush than the other 2 girls.

this has led me to want to remove those coty leaves on future girls, just for the control factor if anything. anyways, ive rambled enough, just wanted to share my results and thank everyone for the previous help and of course thanks to Ben for the great guide!

Keep it Rolled guys!
-edit- kept the 3 pics of them when they were a little younger below to show how they looked just before flower =D
-edit2- you may also notice pic 2 is showing a discernibly different pheno than the other 2 (which are identical). not sure if this has something to do with the stress from the light burn incident or what, but should be interesting to see since i imagine it will yield twice as much as the other 2 in the end.


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## GRiMCreeper (Sep 19, 2010)

ok...here is my question for Uncle Ben, as i have gone through a few pages here and after seeing there are only 271 pages in all...i give up lol....At what height did you start the flowering process from the plant on page 1...the 10oz jewel ....(height of the plant...not plant and the pot)...obviously the stress from cutting off the top of the plant will slow it down for a few days at the least i would think. I cant speak for everyone, but im a greedy bastard..i want the most possible yield that i can get lol

Thanks


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## hirez0 (Sep 19, 2010)

I topped this hairy lady as a young seedling and went to 12/12 2 weeks after topping. Pictures are from day 53 after flipping to 12/12. I'm not complaining


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## anomolies (Sep 19, 2010)

Looks nice, but doesn't this look nicer?

https://www.rollitup.org/attachments/outdoor-growing/1151246-4-main-colas-september-3-2010.jpg

I could be wrong, but I find myself perplexed how people doing LST with 20-50 colas (such as in the above pic) could possibly yield the same as UB himself doing the 4 cola method, which is why I would like to see what his plants look like. I saw one of his giant plants somewhere but lost the link.

If anything, shouldn't the LST'ed plants yield more? I mean those colas look 2-3 times as long and would be the same in girth as yours or mine if it was the same strain. Or that plant could just be early in flower. cus I've seen some other LST'ed plants with pretty fat colas.

Unless UB's colas are like 10 times the size I don't see how the 4 cola (or 3 if you're unlucky) method yields as much as LST.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 20, 2010)

anomolies said:


> Hey Ben, do you mind posting some pictures of your 5' monsters? I've went through 150+ pages of this thread and haven't seen a single picture from you other than the ones on the 1st page.
> Wish there was a thread tool to look at the pictures only...


After taking a few pictures which was clearly a security issue, I deleted them. There are quite a few photos of mine and others throughout this thread. Rollitup refuses to allow thread starters to edit their posts or I would have turned the first post of this thread into a FAQ with answers to the same old questions and more photos. 

Topping indoors or out tends to open up the canopy but the auxin influence can only go so far. I wouldn't worry about it.



GRiMCreeper said:


> ok...here is my question for Uncle Ben, as i have gone through a few pages here and after seeing there are only 271 pages in all...i give up lol....At what height did you start the flowering process from the plant on page 1...the 10oz jewel ....


About 12" is when I flowered. BTW, the only stress involved is to those who are topping for the first time. If the plant is growing like it should it WILL respond within 24 hours. By the time it has grown to 6 nodes it should be growing pretty fast.

Nice post and results KK! BTW, you're not the KK from the old days of cann.com? It's rare that the nodes where the cotlyedons attach will output foliage. "Never say never" I guess......

UB


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## daisydobey (Sep 20, 2010)

so guys i topped mine a few days ago , and now they look like 4 colas are growing! i could be wrong, but can someone tell me if that is true? i will post pics soon when i turn the lights on


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## KlosetKing (Sep 20, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice post and results KK! BTW, you're not the KK from the old days of cann.com? It's rare that the nodes where the cotlyedons attach will output foliage. "Never say never" I guess......
> 
> UB


Thank You! I couldn't have done it without your guys' help and if i might say, things are looking great! No iam not the KK from any other site, well except speedyseedz forums, iam KK there as well.

As for the coty's, iam with ya on that. I never thought that what happened to me is the 'norm', but its not too surprising seeing that i left the variables in just to see how it came out. Definitely seems to me that next go, ill chop the coty nodes to prevent it from 'possibly' happening again(like i did with the third plant) as it definitely came out the best of the three.

Once again UB and the others that helped me before, thanks a ton! Thanks to it, my second grow is definitely going exponentially better than the first one did =D


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## daisydobey (Sep 20, 2010)

they grew allot in the last few days, so is that 4 top i circled it, one of em got hidden for the picture under the leaf, and the little x is where i cut the top

the other one i didnt get a shot of the top but i moved them to that black bucket because im doing a phinal phase flush on my snowyrders this week and they were in the same tank..

which kind of sucked, one of the autos roots were tangled with the snowryders and i had to cut them to remove it...

and now i mixed up the 2!!! dont know which is norther lights and which is jock horror =/


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## nas2007 (Sep 20, 2010)

hey boys i gues this is the best thred to ask if these are ready for toping
21 days old


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## DaveCoulier (Sep 20, 2010)

nas2007 said:


> hey boys i gues this is the best thred to ask if these are ready for toping
> 21 days old
> View attachment 1167494


Looks ready to me. Top away.


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## kriscolo (Sep 23, 2010)

I'm in on this late but hey! I have some indicas that i let shoot up too high to start lst. They're about 12" and I suppose i could bend 'em and then s.c. but do you think topping will do alright? still lst after?


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## lefreq (Sep 24, 2010)

well theres my contribution to this method have just started 12/12 today all plants at 20" with 4 good strong colas each!


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## lefreq (Sep 24, 2010)

i know they were not 20" in this pic will get an up to date pic in the morning when the light comes on


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## 9867mike777 (Sep 25, 2010)

If you top exactly like the guide says, after the second true node, I sometimes get four equal colas. But most of the time, the top two branches become dominant and start stretching, leaving the lower two far behind. Next time I am going to try and do a second topping of the two top shoots, which will hopefully allow the lower colas to keep up with the top ones. This might give me six equal colas...or maybe two (or four) will become dominant again.

I still like this method, because two twin towers is better than one.


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## nas2007 (Sep 25, 2010)

if i top at number 1 ill get 4 top right. and if i top at number 2 ill get 6 top ? if i top higher will i get more top? what if i top one lover then number 1 i will get 2 tops? i hope im right if im wrong let me know please!!! im a first time growe and just want to do it right!!


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## DaveCoulier (Sep 25, 2010)

You've got it right Nas. I would probably top at #2 myself as you already have 6 nicely developing lateral branches that will hopefully turn into 6 even main colas. I couldn't bring myself to waste two nice branches myself.


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## lefreq (Sep 26, 2010)

View attachment 1178464well theres one of my 44 day old 20" cheesus that i topped at 2nd true node..... 

..... so what do you think peeps....... well...... UB?????? 

XX


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 26, 2010)

Couldn't open up the thumbnail but looks good pint size.


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## lefreq (Sep 27, 2010)

that pic is a couple of weeks old but u can see 6 of the plants all have 4 equal colas. u can also see the plant i topped at 5th node pretty wild groth really bottom 2 nodes ending up main colas anyway!!!

hope you can see those UB would love your input!


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## DaveCoulier (Sep 27, 2010)

Lefreq, when composing your posts, click on your picture after its been added, and choose the thumbnail option. That will resize them to the perfect size.


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## lefreq (Sep 28, 2010)

oh cheers dave +rep, do you live uk? its wierd i have a friend that is called dave coulier not really but thats what everyone calls him and he grows loadsa green hahaha


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## lefreq (Sep 28, 2010)

lefreq said:


> View attachment 1178464well theres one of my 44 day old 20" cheesus that i topped at 2nd true node.....
> 
> ..... so what do you think peeps....... well...... UB??????
> 
> XX


 
ahh thats loads better big love to Mr coulier xx


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## DaveCoulier (Sep 28, 2010)

lefreq said:


> oh cheers dave +rep, do you live uk? its wierd i have a friend that is called dave coulier not really but thats what everyone calls him and he grows loadsa green hahaha


Thanks for the rep. I dont live in the UK. Nice to know someone else out there goes by Dave Coulier haha.


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## lefreq (Sep 28, 2010)

heres a side view of my tent where you can see a topped using UB's method plant and a topped at 5th node plant! the 5th node one is alot more random growth, as you can see i have taken the bottom 5th of groth out of all of the babys i know its frowned upon in this thread but i di it anyway...always have. and removed a few of the larger fan leaves i will completly leave alone now untill they get the chop




let me know your thoughts peeps xx


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## BuddGreen (Sep 29, 2010)

I'm gonna have to try this.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 29, 2010)

Harvest day for most of my colas. Left some on the plant in the field. Very strong bubble gum smell, fruity, from a C99 backcross. Very short pistils. Some bud rot thanks to the 10+ rain from TS Hermine. Got the leaf loss in check with increased N doses during flowering. Very resinous. Colas hanging from coat hangers drying now. Aunt Benita and I spent an hour manicuring this stuff with 1/3 to go out in the field.

UB


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## DaveCoulier (Sep 29, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Harvest day for most of my colas. Left some on the plant in the field. Very strong bubble gum smell, fruity, from a C99 backcross. Very short pistils. Some bud rot thanks to the 10+ rain from TS Hermine. Got the leaf loss in check with increased N doses during flowering. Very resinous. Colas hanging from coat hangers drying now. Aunt Benita and I spent an hour manicuring this stuff with 1/3 to go out in the field.
> 
> UB


Grats on the harvest. Now whens the sampling party . Sorry to hear about the rain. I hope it wasn't too much of a loss. 

I hope you'll get some finished pics of it up here sometime.


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## Danielsgb (Sep 29, 2010)

Good to hear UB. I wondered about you and the Tropical Storm. 
Daniels


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## potpimp (Sep 30, 2010)

UB, do you harvest by the 80/20 brown/fresh pistils rule or do you go by the trichs?


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## lefreq (Sep 30, 2010)

harvest time seems ages away for me haha
View attachment 1186465
View attachment 1186458View attachment 1186462


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## borijus (Sep 30, 2010)

PLEASE. i have one nice lady hear, doing under the sun. Shes in the 4th week of flowering. And, i whant to know, is it worth, and possible (because of stress)..., to combine HPS (600w) and sun, (AND WHICH WAY IS THE BEST TO DO THIS??). She only has 4-5 weeks left?? ANYONE???


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## 123petey999 (Sep 30, 2010)

lefreq said:


> harvest time seems ages away for me haha
> View attachment 1186465
> View attachment 1186458View attachment 1186462


how long did u veg for bro?


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 30, 2010)

potpimp said:


> UB, do you harvest by the 80/20 brown/fresh pistils rule or do you go by the trichs?


I judge a plant by it's progression on many factors, don't rely on trichome color. If it's not producing many fresh pistils, perhaps doing some male bananas....it's time to harvest. No two plants are the same. Like a fruit tree, I harvest as the buds are ready, my call.

*lefreq*, nice plant structure on your faves. 

*borijus*, whenever you can, always combine natural sunlight with HID, it's the best of both worlds. Mimic your desired photoperiod with the addition of the HID.

Wish we could do a sampling party! This is one fruit bomb.


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## Shackleford.R (Sep 30, 2010)

lefreq said:


> View attachment 1182323
> View attachment 1182324
> 
> let me know your thoughts peeps xx


My thoughts???

I wanna roll around in there!! Keep up the good work.


Shack

+rep my friend


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## lefreq (Oct 1, 2010)

123petey999 said:


> how long did u veg for bro?


i vegged 44 days in total wasnt a set time just when they reached 20"


Uncle Ben said:


> *lefreq*, nice plant structure on your faves.
> 
> .


hey cheers UB you can take a small percentage of the credit for that haha


Shackleford.R said:


> My thoughts???
> 
> I wanna roll around in there!! Keep up the good work.
> 
> ...


nice one shack ill try!


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## SpeedDevil (Oct 1, 2010)

this thread is the shit i just got 3 seeds of maxigom witch is an auto strain, im new to growing so please dont jump over this question but can i try and do the 4 colas on an (auto strain) like maxigom from grass o matic? thanks


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## potpimp (Oct 2, 2010)

I wouldn't do that SpeedDevil. I've done it but with autos it's a big trade off. Yes, you will get 4 colas but *any* stress on an auto and it stunts their growth. Normal plants, yeah you never even notice the plant being stunted if you blink twice. I grew off about 50 autos this spring/summer and I got more by not topping. The rest of my plants, the full season ones, are another story; I'm totally sold on topping - just not for autos. BTW, welcome to the forum.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 3, 2010)

Just did a secondary harvest on an outdoor plant.

Super dense rootball in this link, definately worth a read:
https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/368171-roots-above-ground-3.html#post4722381

4 cola structure, photo taken this morn.



Friend of mine that hitched a ride. Little guy was rather shy, every time I turned the pot to take a shot he walked to the back side! I moved faster on this one.



Secondary harvest: 



It does make a difference! I will easily get another ounce of dried bud, and yes, there were alot of (healthy) green fan leaves trimmed off before this shot. The small ones left are covered with trichomes. If any leaves are covered in trichomes, they don't get dropped.

Have a great Sunday,
Tio
.


----------



## Future858 (Oct 3, 2010)

Nice plants lefreq! I can't wait to try this technique out, thanks UB!


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## atomicronick (Oct 3, 2010)

love my fifth node topping. id add a pic but im having tech difficulties. love this thread. 12 clones all topped. feel me ?  love the greens.


----------



## Dr Gruber (Oct 4, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Just did a secondary harvest on an outdoor plant.
> 
> Super dense rootball in this link, definately worth a read:
> https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/368171-roots-above-ground-3.html#post4722381
> ...



After reading your stuff I switched to the two harvest method and it really does work as long as I keep them healthy. 
Thanks UB for all you do for us Newbs.


----------



## lefreq (Oct 4, 2010)

atomicronick said:


> love my fifth node topping. id add a pic but im having tech difficulties. love this thread. 12 clones all topped. feel me ?  love the greens.


im finding the one i topped at 5th node is rather random growth not the equal uniformity you get from 2nd node 4 cola method


----------



## atomicronick (Oct 4, 2010)

I am starting to wonder how strain dependant topping is.....or, in other words.....what strains react to a early, or a late top......trail and error sounds perfect to me  That is a pic of my mother in veg a little while ago


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## atomicronick (Oct 4, 2010)

potpimp said:


> I wouldn't do that SpeedDevil. I've done it but with autos it's a big trade off. Yes, you will get 4 colas but *any* stress on an auto and it stunts their growth. Normal plants, yeah you never even notice the plant being stunted if you blink twice. I grew off about 50 autos this spring/summer and I got more by not topping. The rest of my plants, the full season ones, are another story; I'm totally sold on topping - just not for autos. BTW, welcome to the forum.



Thank you for the info.....sorry to thread jack, but that has been on my mind as of recent developments.........


----------



## Uncle Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

Dr Gruber said:


> After reading your stuff I switched to the two harvest method and it really does work as long as I keep them healthy.
> Thanks UB for all you do for us Newbs.


You're welcome. Harvest as they become "ripe", like an apple.



lefreq said:


> im finding the one i topped at 5th node is rather random growth not the equal uniformity you get from 2nd node 4 cola method


5th node topping is not what this thread is all about. It produces random growth, not 4 main colas.

The last two outside grows were on auto-flowering plants. Here's a great example of one that autoflowered right after topping at the 6th node (produced alternate nodes just after topping). 

*Upcanned and then topped:*

 

*Week or so later:*



*Same plant only 2 weeks later:*




*4 colas falling over under their own weight 2 weeks prior to harvest:*



UB

.


----------



## MeJuana (Oct 5, 2010)

Uncle Ben I was hoping to get your input on the chop. My Platinum OG clones are 12 inches tall Aero-NFT and I am wondering how to best sculpt the 2 nodes, I have 12 basically look like below.. Would it be better to trim the first few nodes off, then pick two nice stout ones, then hack the rest of the plant off? None of this plant is needed, it was grown to top and then I found your thread right before cutting so lucky me. You're a genius sir!!, thanks in advance.

(I am not time critical, she is 3 weeks before 12/12 still)


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## smeemee (Oct 5, 2010)

I topped these clones yesterday but couldnt find much info on topping clones with alternating nodes. Just wondering if they appear ok and if I will still get 2 main colas even though they have alternating nodes? thanks


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## YungMef (Oct 6, 2010)

what happens if you top above the 3rd or even 4th true node?


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## Danielsgb (Oct 6, 2010)

smeemee said:


> View attachment 1195972View attachment 1195973 I topped these clones yesterday but couldnt find much info on topping clones with alternating nodes. Just wondering if they appear ok and if I will still get 2 main colas even though they have alternating nodes? thanks


I top clones alot and it looks good to me. You should get 2 Mains from it.



YungMef said:


> what happens if you top above the 3rd or even 4th true node?


You get a bush, but no clear 6 or 8 tops. Too many points for auxins to re-distribute.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 6, 2010)

MeJuana said:


> Uncle Ben I was hoping to get your input on the chop. My Platinum OG clones are 12 inches tall Aero-NFT and I am wondering how to best sculpt the 2 nodes, I have 12 basically look like below.. Would it be better to trim the first few nodes off, then pick two nice stout ones, then hack the rest of the plant off? None of this plant is needed, it was grown to top and then I found your thread right before cutting so lucky me. You're a genius sir!!, thanks in advance.
> 
> (I am not time critical, she is 3 weeks before 12/12 still)


Just follow the drill on the first post. Cut and be done with it.

UB


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## MeJuana (Oct 6, 2010)

Ok I will follow the instructions and not try to get fancy, thx Uncle Ben.


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## slikhik (Oct 6, 2010)

Uncle ben, first and foremost I just want to say that I enjoy reading all of your threads. You really do know what you are talking about...

My question is if I were to use this method for topping in 3 gallon buckets under 1000 watt lights, how far should I space my pots if I'm going for yield? 

Can I pack 15-20 plants under a light or should I space them out a bit with 9-12? Thanks!


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 6, 2010)

slikhik said:


> Uncle ben, first and foremost I just want to say that I enjoy reading all of your threads. You really do know what you are talking about...
> 
> My question is if I were to use this method for topping in 3 gallon buckets under 1000 watt lights, how far should I space my pots if I'm going for yield?
> 
> Can I pack 15-20 plants under a light or should I space them out a bit with 9-12? Thanks!


I dont' have a crystal ball. Just do it, develop your own program and go fromt here.


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## ANC (Oct 8, 2010)

Hey I just did the 4 cola (hopefully) thing to my biggest seedling.


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## fooshizzle (Oct 8, 2010)

I love growing, its like I have my own little science experiment in my backyard. Uncle Ben I've read a lot of your posts and thank you for all the great advice!


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## I dont know (Oct 9, 2010)

Uncle Ben i used your technique and I had good luck with it... your threads are very informative.. thanks


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## board boy (Oct 9, 2010)

hey man, how long did you veg these for? i usually veg till my plants get to about 4ft then flower for 8 weeks, but my mate tried it another way, topped em very early like this thread says, then got them to 1 ft tall and flowered them they ended up about 3ft tall when done with 3-4 main colas on each and he got 7-8 oz per plant, he used the edd and flow system where as i do my in coco. i may try his way next (but in coco) it save time meaning a quicker turnaround...
any info would be great,
peace brothers


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 10, 2010)

Happy you enjoy the posts.

Grow hard,
UB


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## researchkitty (Oct 10, 2010)

2,761 posts on a simple topic as using a pair of scissors to chop after the second node. Such a simple task creates such a long thread.  I now top all of my plants after 9 full months of experimenting with it.


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## researchkitty (Oct 10, 2010)

slikhik said:


> Uncle ben, first and foremost I just want to say that I enjoy reading all of your threads. You really do know what you are talking about...
> 
> My question is if I were to use this method for topping in 3 gallon buckets under 1000 watt lights, how far should I space my pots if I'm going for yield?
> 
> Can I pack 15-20 plants under a light or should I space them out a bit with 9-12? Thanks!


See my grow journal. I use 3.5 gallon buckets, so same thing really. Easily fit 16 plants under one 1000w lamp if you like, but I like to veg them a little longer and currently have some lights with 9 some lights with 12 under them. If your strain is bushy, go with 9 or 12, if your strain likes to stick nug itself, go with 12 or 16. With 16 pots, you wont really be able to move them around, its full capacity, so do try 12 first to make sure its manageable


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## grow viking (Oct 11, 2010)

Thanks a great deal, UB. I'm growing some bagseed that is evidently a highly sativa dominant variety. (Very thin leaves, very strong head high.) I read the tutorial quite thoroughly and have had excellent success. (Even as a total novice) My yields are up and they don't grow into the lights anymore. Found some random comments in this thread regarding alfalfa meal. Can you direct me to your tutorial regarding your thoughts on soil composition? Thanks again!


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 11, 2010)

grow viking said:


> Thanks a great deal, UB. I'm growing some bagseed that is evidently a highly sativa dominant variety. (Very thin leaves, very strong head high.) I read the tutorial quite thoroughly and have had excellent success. (Even as a total novice) My yields are up and they don't grow into the lights anymore. Found some random comments in this thread regarding alfalfa meal. Can you direct me to your tutorial regarding your thoughts on soil composition? Thanks again!


Good moisture retention while offering good aeration. Add some alfalfa meal to your mix if you want the benefit of triancontanol. Do a search.

UB


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## lefreq (Oct 12, 2010)

bubble cheese 14 days 12/12 topped at 2nd true node resulting in 4 very equal main colas


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 12, 2010)

lefreq said:


> View attachment 1207315bubble cheese 14 days 12/12 topped at 2nd true node resulting in 4 very equal main colas


Nice job!

UB


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## lefreq (Oct 12, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice job!
> 
> UB


cheers UB there at 35" already but nice even canopy
one of my cheesus other 4 are pretty much exactly the same

you can see the one i topped at 5th node for a comparason has stretched a gd 4" above the rest


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## Phillip Andrew Marx (Oct 13, 2010)

UB,
First time grower, but Im having remarkable sucess so far. I wanted to keep the plants small but experiment at the same time. Started with 20 seeds and expected some to die, but none did! ^_^ kinda proud of my self ^_^ Anyway, four plants, bag seed, but I know one for sure is 50%+ sativa, one looks to be about 50/50, and the other two look about 30S/70I. Veged for 4 weeks using 120w cool white above plants, all plants were at 6-9" tall. I topped the sativa and both of the 30/50's and began lst on sativa and one of the 30/50's. The 30/50 didnt like it, so I stopped training, but the sativa loved it, a bit too much. started flowering three days ago: added 400w HPS and have had to tie down all nodes. One of the 30/50's now has some burn (the one that was training) BUT it was also transplanted into a different soil. 1: Can I slow growth in the sativa durring flowering, without much stress and without disturbing the other plants. 2: Burn help?
I do not have a camera, so pics are impossiable. The burn isnt awful, but could easily turn into a problem, and with only having 4 plants, I dont want to lose any.
Any advice?
Set up, 
400w HPS overhead
120w cool white angled on wall to give under nods light.
circulating fan
1/3rd perilite to 2/3rd "African Violet Merical grow (tm)" 6.3 ph lvl
cant afford nuts so Im using "Shake plant feed" by merical grow with no nitrogen OD ^_^
Hope to hear a responce soon!!


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## MeJuana (Oct 13, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Good moisture retention while offering good aeration. Add some alfalfa meal to your mix if you want the benefit of triancontanol. Do a search.
> 
> UB


Sorry didn't realize you didn't give out your dirt mix Uncle Ben please ignore my PM from last night then. Guess this is what I will use then
http://hightimes.com/grow/subcool/5728


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## DaveCoulier (Oct 13, 2010)

MeJuana said:


> Sorry didn't realize you didn't give out your dirt mix Uncle Ben please ignore my PM from last night then. Guess this is what I will use then
> http://hightimes.com/grow/subcool/5728


MeJuana, he's posted his soil recipe a few times in his threads before. I wish I could give you a link to it, but I dont have it offhand. 

If you want a good soil as your base, I would suggest Fafards Heavyweight mixes. Im currently using Fafard #52, and it provides good drainage, and aeration, but not as much water retention. Then you can decide which amendments to add afterwards. Its alot cheaper too! 2.8cf for $11.xx versus overpriced products like Fox Farms or Roots organic that are costing $20 for about half as much soil.


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## MeJuana (Oct 13, 2010)

Thanks I can find it now that I know that. +rep


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## Life Goes On (Oct 14, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> MeJuana, he's posted his soil recipe a few times in his threads before. I wish I could give you a link to it, but I dont have it offhand.
> 
> If you want a good soil as your base, I would suggest Fafards Heavyweight mixes. Im currently using Fafard #52, and it provides good drainage, and aeration, but not as much water retention. Then you can decide which amendments to add afterwards. Its alot cheaper too! 2.8cf for $11.xx versus overpriced products like Fox Farms or Roots organic that are costing $20 for about half as much soil.


If your paying $20 for a bag of Roots your gettin your head busted! I pay $15. I'd rather pay the extra $4.00 and not have to worry about adding amendments. You'll probably spend more than $4.00 on amendments anyway so the end result is Roots is cheaper.


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## ANC (Oct 15, 2010)

The one in the back has been done, the one in the front is a mutant.





Only brancheson one side develop, the ones on the other side forms like a sheath around the centre stem, so the whole thing keeps curling in on itself, and seems to be makeing two colas.

Both are girls, I just never seem to get boy seeds, despite haveing hundreds of seeds.


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## lefreq (Oct 16, 2010)

3 weeks 12/12 4 colas lookin lovely

View attachment 1215416View attachment 1215415


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 16, 2010)

lefreq said:


> 3 weeks 12/12 4 colas lookin lovely


Yep, they look great.


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## lefreq (Oct 16, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yep, they look great.


 
cherrs UB you may remember me bein quite sceptical about this method at first as i didnt see the benefits other than to keep height down on tall sativas but since trying it for myself i have found multiple benefits, my canopy is very even and level, having the 4 equal colas i have not had to support or tie in anyway as they sort of balance each other out, and looks like im going to be getting alot of rather large COLAS and not much popcorn, 7 plants with 4 main colas each making 28 MAIN COLAS looks bloody lovely if i do say so myself!

so thanks uncle ben i shall be using this method every single time from now on if i could send you a spliff i would ++++rep


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## corÃºm (Oct 16, 2010)

After having read most of this thread... and having an 'extra' plant to experiment with, this is my result so far... been vegging for 4 weeks roughly, it's going to be a nice plant to flower!

I also have 8 seedlings i plan on doing this too for my next round for that 'even' canopy, i've been struggling with keeping things even in my cabinet with the way my first grow/plants ended up.

Thanks for the info.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Oct 16, 2010)

lefreq said:


> cherrs UB you may remember me bein quite sceptical about this method at first as i didnt see the benefits other than to keep height down on tall sativas but since trying it for myself i have found multiple benefits, my canopy is very even and level, having the 4 equal colas i have not had to support or tie in anyway as they sort of balance each other out, and looks like im going to be getting alot of rather large COLAS and not much popcorn, 7 plants with 4 main colas each making 28 MAIN COLAS looks bloody lovely if i do say so myself!
> 
> so thanks uncle ben i shall be using this method every single time from now on if i could send you a spliff i would ++++rep


Cool, glad you like the results! Keep it green!



corúm;4777171 said:


> After having read most of this thread... and having an 'extra' plant to experiment with, this is my result so far... been vegging for 4 weeks roughly, it's going to be a nice plant to flower!
> 
> I also have 8 seedlings i plan on doing this too for my next round for that 'even' canopy, i've been struggling with keeping things even in my cabinet with the way my first grow/plants ended up.
> 
> ...


Lookin' gude!


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## whynot (Oct 19, 2010)

I topped this plant about 3 weeks into veg, it was already showing alternating nodes. It's so damn pretty it's gotta be a lady! Hope so as plant 2 isn't doing well. Should be showing sex real soon as week 2 of flower started today. Thank UB! 

View attachment 1220952


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## phyzix (Oct 22, 2010)

Good stuff UB


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## The Amazing Hunk (Oct 24, 2010)

cool man!going to use this technique.it seems like youre cutting off the node who would become the cola right?


----------



## ANC (Oct 24, 2010)

yeah man, its very easy, let it gro to 6 nodes, then find the two sets of bottom brances, and nip it about 1/2" above the second set.


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## ANC (Oct 24, 2010)

10 days later and doing well, the selftopping mutant in the front is turning into a beast though, it has not been topped the tip just curls in, which made the bottom branches become dominant.

Oh, and yes, those are ladybugs living in my weed.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 24, 2010)

Have fun fellers!


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## Zcomfort (Oct 24, 2010)

wish someone would do a thread on growinig bonzai mothers...I guess it couldn't be that hard.


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## odlaw (Oct 24, 2010)

dude if ya cant find nothing here try this link its a great bonzai mother guide
http://www.weedguru.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=26668


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## Zcomfort (Oct 25, 2010)

odlaw said:


> dude if ya cant find nothing here try this link its a great bonzai mother guide
> http://www.weedguru.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=26668


Yea I looked at that, but Its not really what Im looking for... what I may be calling bonzai style mums may actually be called something else. Thank you though.
What Im talking about is where there are no leaves on the stock for about a foot or so then it gets bushy as hell.


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## odlaw (Oct 25, 2010)

Zcomfort said:


> Yea I looked at that, but Its not really what Im looking for... what I may be calling bonzai style mums may actually be called something else. Thank you though.
> What Im talking about is where there are no leaves on the stock for about a foot or so then it gets bushy as hell.


isnt that called lolly popping


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 25, 2010)

odlaw said:


> isnt that called lolly popping


Yes, and consider it a dirty word in this thread.


----------



## odlaw (Oct 25, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yes, and consider it a dirty word in this thread.


lol fair enough


----------



## daisydobey (Oct 25, 2010)

the norther lights auto flower i topped was supposed to have 4 top colas but i accidently broke one of the branches off !! but oh well 3 better then 1!!!! 

and this is an autoflower too!

View attachment 1232241


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## GimpDoctor420 (Oct 27, 2010)

thanks so so much UB,
ive spent the last like few months looking through this WHOLE thread
your patience for the people not even arsed to read the first POST and then comment is truely admirable.
i think i actually saw one guy asking, "so how do i get four tops?" 

i just have one question however(btw i completely understand the topping technique and i did from page1)
you mentioned earlier that you could in theory use this concept on any plant - even an oak tree,
but lets say for a tomato plant: there are no opposing nodes on a tomato plant so how would you do it then? (this is purely out of interest in botany as i hate tomatoes)

anyway i think its terrible, but oddly funny, that your possibly the only grower on this site, that i can truely trust for advice, because you advise from experience(without influence from all the commercial crap surrounding the growing community, like soma for example), and not only that but you'd rather tell them to go find out through their own experience rather than be told what to do off a screen.

if there was a "give handjob" button, i'd press it, but i guess RIU have a lot of work to do on this site haha

much love


----------



## DunLarkin (Oct 27, 2010)

I have 4 strains.

Dutch Passion Orange Bud
Barney Farms LSD
DNA Lemon Skunk
DNA Sour Cream
I would like to do it to one. which one would benefit the most?


----------



## jewgrow (Oct 27, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yes, and consider it a dirty word in this thread.


clever,
+rep


----------



## jewgrow (Oct 27, 2010)

DunLarkin said:


> I have 4 strains.
> 
> Dutch Passion Orange Bud
> Barney Farms LSD
> ...



do it to all of them....


----------



## DunLarkin (Oct 27, 2010)

I have never topped before, is this an opportunity to yield more?


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## jewgrow (Oct 27, 2010)

Topping does not _directly_ give larger yield, but topping along with certain techniques or methods, and styles of growing can definitely improve the yield of a grow.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Oct 27, 2010)

GimpDoctor420 said:


> I just have one question however(btw i completely understand the topping technique and i did from page1)
> you mentioned earlier that you could in theory use this concept on any plant - even an oak tree,
> but lets say for a tomato plant: there are no opposing nodes on a tomato plant so how would you do it then? (this is purely out of interest in botany as i hate tomatoes)


You need to understand where the dormant foliar buds are located. In the case of cannabis and many other plant materials, they're in the axils of where the leaf petioles, branches, attach to the trunk. More are located along the "trunk" but it takes alot to make them break out, so, for the sake of discussion, keep that in mind.



> anyway i think its terrible, but oddly funny, that your possibly the only grower on this site, that i can truely trust for advice, because you advise from experience(without influence from all the commercial crap surrounding the growing community, like soma for example), and not only that but you'd rather tell them to go find out through their own experience rather than be told what to do off a screen.


Thanks. I don't allow popular opinion sway me or forum politics define who I am. 

Good luck,
UB


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## Harrekin (Oct 28, 2010)

I grow in square plastic pots, if I top for four colas, let the new "main" branches grow a bit and then tie them down (just once), one in each corner of the pot, reckon this would make a decent combination of the two techniques to check out?


----------



## jewgrow (Oct 28, 2010)

Harrekin said:


> I grow in square plastic pots, if I top for four colas, let the new "main" branches grow a bit and then tie them down (just once), one in each corner of the pot, reckon this would make a decent combination of the two techniques to check out?


I feel like this is the most efficient methods of combining the methods. The real stress of topping, which isn't much to begin with, is done with and you can continue to train your plant without major snips. Plus topping first really sets the whole process into gear, and the side branches more readily come out.


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## yesimyann (Oct 28, 2010)

awesome thread. +rep!


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## 9867mike777 (Oct 28, 2010)

I have to make a decision pretty soon on topping these three plants; Barney's Farm LSD, Blueberry Gum and Pineapple Express. Yes, I got some of these in the Attitude freebie last month. I'm contemplating letting it grow a little taller and trying to clone the resulting top when I cut it. Anyone with experience with these particular strains, or trying to clone a top on a young vegging plant, let me know.


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## Xiphos (Oct 28, 2010)

Can you choose any two sets of nodes you want or does it have to be the bottom 2 sets? Like keep the 3 and 4 nodes, top above, then clip off the 1 and 2 node?


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## jewgrow (Oct 28, 2010)

You can top at any node. Topping directly above the second true node will give 4 heads. This is a pretty uniform process, and topping above this will change according to plant. Some will grow out 6 heads, but others only 4, sometimes even only two.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 29, 2010)

Xiphos said:


> Can you choose any two sets of nodes you want or does it have to be the bottom 2 sets? Like keep the 3 and 4 nodes, top above, then clip off the 1 and 2 node?


What does post #1 of this thread say?


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## Xiphos (Oct 29, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> What does post #1 of this thread say?


Believe me sweetie ive read it 100 times. The only clarification is the word "true" used once. 

Rephrased: What happens if you select two random nodes, top above them, and clear off the other shit?


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## 9867mike777 (Oct 29, 2010)

jewgrow said:


> You can top at any node. Topping directly above the second true node will give 4 heads. This is a pretty uniform process, and topping above this will change according to plant. Some will grow out 6 heads, but others only 4, sometimes even only two.


 I topped about six plants right above the second node, just like the guide says. In every case, I still got two dominant colas and the other two fell far behind by the time the grow was finished. So next time I might top anywhere it is convenient.


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## Noballs (Oct 29, 2010)

9867MIKE777 I topped a plant in an aero garden,cloned the top and planted it in the ground several times. I worked out great!


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## DaveCoulier (Oct 30, 2010)

Xiphos said:


> Believe me sweetie ive read it 100 times. The only clarification is the word "true" used once.
> 
> Rephrased: What happens if you select two random nodes, top above them, and clear off the other shit?


Yes, you can do it that way if you want. The same principle still applies. Although Im not a big fan of removing stuff from the bottom. They're quite useful when you have a mobile nutrient deficiency.


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## 9867mike777 (Oct 30, 2010)

Noballs said:


> 9867MIKE777 I topped a plant in an aero garden,cloned the top and planted it in the ground several times. I worked out great!


 Thanks. I might do this as my veg time might be a little longer than I would really like. It is always tough topping a plant, especially when you are topping four or five inches of nice growth. If you get a whole new plant from the top, the pain is gone.


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## middle84 (Oct 31, 2010)

I have plants from seed that are a little over a month old, Started under CFL's under a 600 watt hps for the last week. They aren't really branching very much I would have hoped to have the materials to make clones at this point.

I am considering topping but i'm worried cause they are they are working on their 7th and 8th nodes, will this have any adverse affects on the plants removing this much matter.

I was planning on trimming the top and scraping it and using it for the clones.
Is this a good idea or a bad idea?
I am a novice growing I have read and watched videos but lack actual experience


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## GimpDoctor420 (Oct 31, 2010)

UB
i have a few questions.
recently i sprouted a whorled phyllotaxy(when there are three petioles at each node)
and i was wondering,
have you ever gotten one?
if you have, did it turn out male? because i heard someone saying that every one that he got turned out to be male.
and finally if you were to top it using this method, would you get 6 tops?

thanks a mill for any feekback


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## kb12679 (Nov 3, 2010)

Who's is better


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## riddleme (Nov 3, 2010)

kb12679 said:


> Who's is better


 
Not a contest, it's a technique


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## kb12679 (Nov 3, 2010)

your right not a contest a technique. so what do you think of my technique??


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 3, 2010)

kb12679 said:


> Who's is better


Nice canopy, but why the lollipopping? All you have done is increased your veg time just to remove it later on.


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## kb12679 (Nov 3, 2010)

what do you mean veg time, i grew it for 33 days in veg little over one month. and i dont understand lollipopping. what does that mean


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 3, 2010)

kb12679 said:


> what do you mean veg time, i grew it for 33 days in veg little over one month. and i dont understand lollipopping. what does that mean


It looks like you've removed the bottom 30%-40%. If the plant was going to be too tall to get any production that far down, it would have been best to just veg less time and ended up with a shorter more squat plant. 

Since you didn't intentionally lollipop them, then it doesn't apply in this situation.


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## kb12679 (Nov 4, 2010)

Pic. Ya I it was an experiment on this to see if my technique workd


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## halftime (Nov 4, 2010)

Thanks uncle ben . They are lovin that topping technique. it really paid off!




This Bud's for you UB


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## K21701 (Nov 4, 2010)

halftime said:


> Thanks uncle ben . They are lovin that topping technique. it really paid off!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Gorgeous fucking plants!!!!!


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 4, 2010)

halftime said:


> Thanks uncle ben . They are lovin that topping technique. it really paid off


Plants are healthy, nice and green. I don't see 4 main colas though which should be quite distinct if you topped above the 2nd node. In fact, it looks like you topped above the 6th or so node. BTW, I see you use twine. Try using women's hosiery cut into strips. It's much more forgiving. 

Good luck,
UB


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## halftime (Nov 4, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Plants are healthy, nice and green. I don't see 4 main colas though which should be quite distinct if you topped above the 2nd node. In fact, it looks like you topped above the 6th or so node. BTW, I see you use twine. Try using women's hosiery cut into strips. It's much more forgiving.
> 
> Good luck,
> UB


 Thanks for the advice. Once I seen how aggressive they grew back I topped again and got tons of bud sites.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 4, 2010)

halftime said:


> Thanks for the advice. Once I seen how aggressive they grew back I topped again and got tons of bud sites.


That'll work, just depends on how you want the final profile to be.

Good luck ~


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## daisyDuke (Nov 4, 2010)

hay all been checkin this thread, its pretty cool
ar my plants suitable ?
see thumb.
I think there heavy on the sativa gene. as the supposed to gow tween 1 and 1.4 m
cheers


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 4, 2010)

daisyDuke said:


> hay all been checkin this thread, its pretty cool
> ar my plants suitable ?


Looks like they're jest itchin' fer a good haircut to me.


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## daisyDuke (Nov 4, 2010)

My aps for stupid Q but will this keep there overall height down?


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## Life Goes On (Nov 4, 2010)

Yes Uncle Bens technique will not only keep the overall height of your plants down but it will also give you a nice even canopy within your grow room for more efficient use of your lights as the light will be able to penetrate further into the canopy of your plants. Also you say that you think your plants are more on the Sativa side? I'm thinking they are more on the Indica side as 1 to 1.4 meters for a Sativa is rather short. Also the plants in your picture have some pretty stout and fat fan leaves which is typical of Indica Dominant strains whereas Sativa's typically have long skinny fan leaves. Do you know what strain you are growing?


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## daisyDuke (Nov 4, 2010)

Soz dude u were right it does way more heavy on the indica.
and its Edelweiss.


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## GimpDoctor420 (Nov 4, 2010)

UB
i have a few questions.
recently i sprouted a whorled phyllotaxy(when there are three petioles at each node)
and i was wondering,
have you ever gotten one?
if you have, did it turn out male? because i heard someone saying that every one that he got turned out to be male.
and finally if you were to top it using this method, would you get 6 tops?
in other words, on a whorlled phyllotaxy, are there three dormant budsites at each node?

thanks a mill for any feedback


----------



## Uncle Ben (Nov 4, 2010)

GimpDoctor420 said:


> UB
> i have a few questions.
> recently i sprouted a whorled phyllotaxy(when there are three petioles at each node)
> and i was wondering,
> ...


No.........................


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## lefreq (Nov 5, 2010)

hey ub hows it growin, u should drop by my journal sometime you have become a part of it already and even i am starting to feel the near blinding rage you get when someone says "so where do i cut" lol

Some bloke commented on my grow saying " i just uncle ben'd my babies at 4th/5th node really looking forward to that even canopy that you have"

2ND NOOOOOODDDDDDDEEEEEEE!!!!!!


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## withoutAchance (Nov 5, 2010)

2nd from top or bottom???


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## JRTokin (Nov 5, 2010)

Used this topping tecnique and supercropped as well = many bud sites. If you are running a grow in a tight space 
topping is the way to go.


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## whynot (Nov 5, 2010)

withoutAchance said:


> 2nd from top or bottom???


From Bottom


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## Kezo (Nov 5, 2010)

I topped mine a week ago and still noting showing. The place where i cut has turned black. Do i just have to give it more time or is something wrong. i topped the 4th node off


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## lefreq (Nov 5, 2010)

hahaha unreal really i mean how do some of these people get through life lmfao


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 5, 2010)

Kezo said:


> I topped mine a week ago and still noting showing. The place where i cut has turned black. Do i just have to give it more time or is something wrong. i topped the 4th node off


If your plant has not responded with growth a week after topping, then either you lack sufficient lighting, the plants were in poor health when you topped, or perhaps both. Ive never had topping stunt my plants, but Ive found plenty of other ways to stunt them along the way.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 5, 2010)

Strange posts. READ the first page newcomers, and vets, kindly don't enable (respond to) lazy posters especially those with one post as more than likely you've been sucked into a rhetorical question from someone that has never grown a plant before. I find alot of that here.

Thanks,
UB


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## reefcouple (Nov 5, 2010)

I love your 4 node topping tip!! Much appreciated! I'm concerned that I would cut in the wrong place. Are you saying the bottom node doesn't count? Sorry if you've answered this question already, the thread is pretty lengthy and I'm kinda lazy right now. Would I cut above the 3rd node counting the bottom node? (2nd node not counting the bottom node)?

Thanks again, and sorry if you've gone over this a few times already..

+Rep

EDIT: oooops,I just saw ya call out the lazy ones (myself included), I will do a little back tracking..


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## Kezo (Nov 5, 2010)

they are under 2 600 hps and seemed very healthy, they still look real heathy and every things growing great just not the tops


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## 9867mike777 (Nov 5, 2010)

I think there is an advantage to topping some plants when it comes to mold resistance. 

I just had the top cola of a Northern Light get mold. It was a huge cola that was very dense, so no light could get to the interior of the bud, plus no air circulation. In my opinion, if this would have been a topped plant, I would have gotten at least two smaller colas instead of one huge cola. This would lessen the risk for mold. This is an educated guess on my part, but if I am right, a real nice advantage to topping.

As for my Northern Light, I had problems from overwatering and over nuting, so it wasn't 100% healthy. But it still looked great. Because of the mold, I had to lop off the top third of the plant. The bottom of the plant is still good, as the buds weren't that huge. I was able so salvage quite a bit from the top cola, but I ended up trashing at least 3/4th of the bud. This is my first experience with mold. It isn't pretty. I was rather surprised because my grow space isn't overly damp or anything. I did turn on a low volume fan to keep the air moving over the buds. It had been off for a few weeks because I thought it was drying out the plants.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 6, 2010)

9867mike777 said:


> I think there is an advantage to topping some plants when it comes to mold resistance.
> 
> I just had the top cola of a Northern Light get mold. It was a huge cola that was very dense, so no light could get to the interior of the bud, plus no air circulation. In my opinion, if this would have been a topped plant, I would have gotten at least two smaller colas instead of one huge cola. This would lessen the risk for mold. This is an educated guess on my part, but if I am right, a real nice advantage to topping.
> 
> As for my Northern Light, I had problems from overwatering and over nuting, so it wasn't 100% healthy. But it still looked great. Because of the mold, I had to lop off the top third of the plant. The bottom of the plant is still good, as the buds weren't that huge. I was able so salvage quite a bit from the top cola, but I ended up trashing at least 3/4th of the bud. This is my first experience with mold. It isn't pretty. I was rather surprised because my grow space isn't overly damp or anything. I did turn on a low volume fan to keep the air moving over the buds. It had been off for a few weeks because I thought it was drying out the plants.


Had the same problem with my avatar photo. Luckily I didn't have to remove much rot. That cola was as dense as a rock, bud growing into bud. Learned real quick that for such tight colas you always have a fan blowing on them. 

More than likely you were drying out your plants by applying too much salts.

UB


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## 9867mike777 (Nov 8, 2010)

I topped my Pineapple Express above the sixth true node and I swear I am getting four strong colas. I didn't want to chop too much of the plant, and I was happy getting two colas, which is why I topped so high. Now I'm glad I did. 

At least in veg, this Pineapple Express is one of the most beautiful plants I have ever seen. Very branchy. Perfect health and color. Looks kind of like a 60/40 Indica dominant. I hope it clones. I plan on taking at least two after it stretched for a week or two in the flower room.


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## parstains (Nov 9, 2010)

i have a plant thats about 16inchs tall and its been about 4 1/2 weeks should i top this plant its in a small grow box about 4 and half feet tall and 2 and half feet wide all around with a 150watt hps light is it too late to top or would it not be worth it


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## parstains (Nov 9, 2010)

i cut mine and it was about 16inches tall and about 4 weeks into growth should i have done it at this time?


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## wally nutter (Nov 11, 2010)

[video=youtube;yBRT-JfINhI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBRT-JfINhI[/video]

3 weeks and some days

5-6 nodes tall

cut above 2nd node

check one-two

[video=youtube;3AHuqG64jsk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AHuqG64jsk[/video]

sorry about it being sideways. youtube gets gay wit it sometimes


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## ANC (Nov 11, 2010)

Damn, mine is a boy, the mutant plant is a girl though, , has the first two white hairs showing.
Tommorrow morning I'll have to rip the fellow out with a heavy heart, good thing I started two seeds in that large pot.
The male did grow into a nice plant with some whicked thick side branches, and I will certainly top the other babies I have comming up now.


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## Life Goes On (Nov 12, 2010)

kb12679 said:


> your right not a contest a technique. so what do you think of my technique??


Agreed not a contest. But if it were then UB's technique wins hands down everytime! Just look at the nice even canopy of green!


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 14, 2010)

Life Goes On said:


> Agreed not a contest. But if it were then UB's technique wins hands down everytime! Just look at the nice even canopy of green!
> View attachment 1264621View attachment 1264619


Wow, nice job! Even canopy is right.

I hereby nominate you for _Uncle Ben's Topping Poster Child_, hah!

Happy Gardening,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 14, 2010)

wally nutter said:


> 3 weeks and some days
> 
> 5-6 nodes tall
> 
> ...


Nice job! A shot before the haircut would have been cool, but looks like you're off to a nice start. 

Keep 'em green,
UB


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## VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO (Nov 14, 2010)

just trimmed up some girls that I used this technique with and after using it, I will only do it this way from now on, along with keeping my girls green to the end by not letting the nitro fall off. When I refer people to this site, I always tell them, Look for threads by uncle Ben if you want to save yourself the trouble of reading through a bunch of crap. thanks for the knowledge UB.


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## wally nutter (Nov 14, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice job! A shot before the haircut would have been cool, but looks like you're off to a nice start.
> 
> Keep 'em green,
> UB


here ya go ben.

[video=youtube;yBRT-JfINhI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBRT-JfINhI[/video]

i got one question. the new growths fromt eh second node had a jump start and are way ahead of the first node's output. will the lower set catch up eventually? i want 4 main not 2 main and 2 secondary. thanks


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## VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO (Nov 14, 2010)

wally nutter said:


> here ya go ben.
> 
> [video=youtube;yBRT-JfINhI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBRT-JfINhI[/video]
> 
> i got one question. the new growths fromt eh second node had a jump start and are way ahead of the first node's output. will the lower set catch up eventually? i want 4 main not 2 main and 2 secondary. thanks


 that's normal


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## wally nutter (Nov 14, 2010)

VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO said:


> that's normal


thanks. i figured so but wasnt sure


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 14, 2010)

wally nutter said:


> i got one question. the new growths fromt eh second node had a jump start and are way ahead of the first node's output. *will the lower set catch up eventually*? i want 4 main not 2 main and 2 secondary. thanks


Maybe, maybe not. Apical dominance is what this game of auxin manipulation is all about. I have learned thru many years of growing that you take your action, and then whatever mama natur hands you, you deal with it.

Like the Stones say, "you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might get what you need."

UB


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## wally nutter (Nov 14, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Maybe, maybe not. Apical dominance is what this game of auxin manipulation is all about. I have learned thru many years of growing that you take your action, and then whatever mama natur hands you, you deal with it.
> 
> Like the Stones say, "you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might get what you need."
> 
> UB


hmmm we'll just have to see then. i havea feeling they will. if not theyll makea run for it


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## jjfoo (Nov 14, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Maybe, maybe not. Apical dominance is what this game of auxin manipulation is all about.


What if you helped out a bit by training the smaller node's branches to be higher up than the larger ones. I have observed getting a plant to act like it has been topped by simply bending the top down, I would expect similar behavior. It seems like gravity also can stop the hormones from flowing normally.


Then the small ones may be dominant and the currently large ones may be small... I don't know how you would balance them out. I can't hurt to try.

To be really clear, I'm saying do something to the plant to either lower the dominant branches or raise the non-dominant ones so you end up with the smaller ones above.


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## wally nutter (Nov 14, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> What if you helped out a bit by training the smaller node's branches to be higher up than the larger ones. I have observed getting a plant to act like it has been topped by simply bending the top down, I would expect similar behavior. It seems like gravity also can stop the hormones from flowing normally.
> 
> 
> Then the small ones may be dominant and the currently large ones may be small... I don't know how you would balance them out. I can't hurt to try.
> ...


i get what youre saying. i was considering tieing the top shoots down a bit to allow more sun to the lower ones. i think i may just let nature take its course. the small ones are gunna catch up it think


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## firstTimeForEverything (Nov 14, 2010)

lol so i just snip it huh? and then pinch the cut area??


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## wally nutter (Nov 14, 2010)

just snip, thats it


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## firstTimeForEverything (Nov 14, 2010)

razor blade or ?? ....or does that matter..sorry haha this would be my 1st grow ..now how do you count nodes?


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## wally nutter (Nov 14, 2010)

firstTimeForEverything said:


> razor blade or ?? ....or does that matter..sorry haha this would be my 1st grow ..now how do you count nodes?


i guess anything sharp will work. i used scissors. a razor would work. make sure its sterile


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## Life Goes On (Nov 14, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Wow, nice job! Even canopy is right.
> 
> I hereby nominate you for _Uncle Ben's Topping Poster Child_, hah!
> 
> ...


Thanks UB! But all honor and praise goes to you oh wise sensei of ganja!


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## Brick Top (Nov 14, 2010)

Life Goes On said:


> Thanks UB! But all honor and praise goes to you oh wise sensei of ganja!



On RIU Uncle Ben is 'da man!' 

He is the Buddha of Bud, the Gandhi of Ganja, the Prophet of Pot, the Messiah of Marijuana and the Christ of Cannabis all rolled into one. 

Believe in him and your crops will be saved.


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## odlaw (Nov 14, 2010)

i topped this plant once ended up with 4 colas that i did some lst on
this is what ive ended up with so far almost into her 6th week of flower


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## 9867mike777 (Nov 15, 2010)

odlaw said:


> i topped this plant once ended up with 4 colas that i did some lst on
> this is what ive ended up with so far almost into her 6th week of flower
> View attachment 1269094View attachment 1269095


 I hope you have some good air circulation. That looks more packed than a train in Tokyo at rush hour.


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## Spread That Seed (Nov 15, 2010)

is it necessary to pinch above the 2nd node with your fingers or can you use clippers?


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## DaveCoulier (Nov 15, 2010)

Spread That Seed said:


> is it necessary to pinch above the 2nd node with your fingers or can you use clippers?


I just use scissors.


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## odlaw (Nov 15, 2010)

9867mike777 said:


> I hope you have some good air circulation. That looks more packed than a train in Tokyo at rush hour.


yeah i have plenty of ventilation and air flow and yes she turned into a monster wasnt expecting her to get so big 
its getting a lil cramped in there but i think it looks worse than it is cause the leaves are massive for a indica strain i think i ended up with a pheno that is showing more of her sativa side


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 16, 2010)

Hey BT, sup? Thanks for the kind words fellers.....BUT, I am not worthy!

Have a good one,
UB


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## 1stHempBankLBGrower (Nov 16, 2010)

Ok I had A mother K2 plant and It was about 8 inch tall and growing really nice. I started to do the bending process and it snapped. It left about 6 nodes left on the main cola. NOW I got lucky if you can say and now is showing 4 colas!!!!. 

Yet, was wondering if I can use the bottom 2 nodes as clones?? Will the 4 main colas grow good and bushy? 
Message me or post.


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## Cronic Conrad (Nov 16, 2010)

Wassup rui I'm new to this topping thing and I wanted to kno how long do I have to wait 2 flower my plant after I topped it


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## sdkid (Nov 17, 2010)

Uncle ben,

I saw your post a long time ago about being simple with nutrients, and i am now using dyna-gro pro tek for veg. Question is, what do i use for bloom? sorry i couldnt shoot a pm, your inbox is full.


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## riddleme (Nov 17, 2010)

sdkid said:


> Uncle ben,
> 
> I saw your post a long time ago about being simple with nutrients, and i am now using dyna-gro pro tek for veg. Question is, what do i use for bloom? sorry i couldnt shoot a pm, your inbox is full.


Dynagro ProtK is a silica suppliment 0-0-3 not gonna be a good veg nute? Dynagro FoilagePro is for veg and Dynagro Bloom is for flower


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## 9867mike777 (Nov 17, 2010)

I think I have had just as good of luck getting four colas if I top at the very top, whether that is the sixth node or even higher. Either way, I usually end up with two dominant colas.


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## Brick Top (Nov 17, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Hey BT, sup? Thanks for the kind words fellers.....BUT, I am not worthy!
> 
> Have a good one,
> UB


I just thought it would be fun to see if I could give the Shri Sai Baba of sensimilla a little chuckle.

Hope all is going well for you and Auntie.


----------



## Spread That Seed (Nov 17, 2010)

Well this was my first attempt at topping, its a Barney's Farm Pineapple Chunk


View attachment 1275616


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## wally nutter (Nov 17, 2010)

looks real good!


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## sdkid (Nov 18, 2010)

Yes that is what i ment, i use floiage pro. So he recommends the bloom for flower from dyan gro?


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## Cristal (Nov 18, 2010)

I fimmed my white rhino 4 days ago, i havent used the cut above the 2nd node tehnique, i just fimed the new top growth leaves. I see now that i have got 3 main and the growth next to fim are secondary shots, right? Check pic pls, is my first fim.


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## MeJuana (Nov 19, 2010)

Can you do this to plants with alternating nodes? I did it already but someone said it doesn't work right, my plants look awesome but honestly I can't tell what happened til I trim them.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Nov 20, 2010)

sdkid said:


> Uncle ben,
> 
> I saw your post a long time ago about being simple with nutrients, and i am now using dyna-gro pro tek for veg. Question is, what do i use for bloom? sorry i couldnt shoot a pm, your inbox is full.


Dave's got you covered. You "use" whatever will maintain the leaves in a healthy condition until harvest, and most "bloom" foods won't guarantee that. In fact, the use of bloom foods during flowering usually works against you. With experience, you're gonna find that if you've doing fine during veg, your troubles begin about the 3rd week into the flowering response. Remember, I told you so.  



Brick Top said:


> I just thought it would be fun to see if I could give the Shri Sai Baba of sensimilla a little chuckle.
> 
> Hope all is going well for you and Auntie.


Doing well brickman...... Hope it's going good for you too. Happy Turkey Day!

.


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## muchogood (Nov 20, 2010)

born2killspam said:


> A clone carries the genetic age of its mother plant.. A seedling will begin by growing opposing nodes.. When it reaches sexual maturity about a month into its life it will form preflowers and begin the alternating nodes you see..
> A clone is as sexually mature as its mother, so they immediately grow with alternating phylotaxy.. Its not about vegitative state or light cycle, its about genetic age..
> You can top a clone.. It will shift growth focus to the secondaries, but you won't get quite the same uniformity as with opposing nodes and UB's method.. Remember that alternating nodes really count as 1/2 of an opposing node, so if you want 4 equalish tops you'd need to snip above the 4th node.. And for the record, all nodes on a clone are true nodes so long as they're actively growing and not cannibalized..





MeJuana said:


> Can you do this to plants with alternating nodes? I did it already but someone said it doesn't work right, my plants look awesome but honestly I can't tell what happened til I trim them.


Here I found it Mewanna! lilbonger


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## wally nutter (Nov 21, 2010)

[video=youtube;3AHuqG64jsk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AHuqG64jsk[/video]


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## MeJuana (Nov 21, 2010)

muchogood said:


> Here I found it Mewanna! lilbonger


 thx buddy that helps me understand it


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## sdkid (Nov 21, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Dave's got you covered. You "use" whatever will maintain the leaves in a healthy condition until harvest, and most "bloom" foods won't guarantee that. In fact, the use of bloom foods during flowering usually works against you. With experience, you're gonna find that if you've doing fine during veg, your troubles begin about the 3rd week into the flowering response. Remember, I told you so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So just use foilage pro throughout the entire grow, i should be good?


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## Brick Top (Nov 22, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Dave's got you covered. You "use" whatever will maintain the leaves in a healthy condition until harvest, and most "bloom" foods won't guarantee that. In fact, the use of bloom foods during flowering usually works against you.



There was a time when I would have disagreed with Uncle Ben on the bloom foods, and I guess to a slight degree I still do. I used to believe in them wholeheartedly. Then I started having a problem here and something odd happen there and I started backing off on them a fair it. I will still use them but sparingly. 

After wondering why that was happening I thought about the strains it was happening with and came up with a very rudimentary purely assumptive theory. The strains were basically mutts, Heinz 57 Variety strains, ones that were made up starting with pure landrace strains used to make crosses that then were used to make crosses and triple crosses that then went into other crosses and sometimes more triple crosses until finally they were released as being the latest and the greatest. The landrace strains were from differing parts of the world where they would have evolved under very different conditions to exist in soil that had very different nutritional elements, mainly as in differing amounts but in some cases just different.

It made me wonder if in strains that have such amazingly varied genetics in them, that would bring with them differing needs for optimal health and growth and production, that possibly we are reaching a point where a one size fits all fertilizer for vegetative growth and another for flowering just won't or don't adequately meet the plants needs and that might, at least in part, explain some of the oddities and problems people see now and then and cannot explain because going my what people have been taught and going by instructions everything should be cool and the gang. 

Some people have been going all Lady Gaga over Super Lemon Haze. Take a look at it's lineage and think a minute about how with all that variety of genetics in it, or something along those lines, might it not have nutritional needs that will differ from what we can pick from column A or column B?



*Super Lemon Haze* »»» Super Silver Haze x Lemon Skunk
Super Silver Haze 
Super Silver Haze 
»»» {(Haze x Haze) x Skunk #1} x {(Haze x Haze) x NL #5}
(Haze x Haze) x Skunk #1 
Haze x Haze
Haze
O Haze 
»»» Mexico x Colombia x Thailand x India
Mexico »»» Sativa
Colombia »»» Sativa
Thailand »»» Sativa
India »»» Sativa


 
Haze (specified above)

 
Skunk #1
Skunk #1 
»»» Afghanistan x Mexico x Colombia
Afghanistan »»» Indica
Mexico »»» Sativa
Colombia »»» Sativa


 
(Haze x Haze) x NL #5 
Haze x Haze (specified above)
 
NL #5
USA, Kalifornien »»» Mostly Indica

 
 
 
Lemon Skunk 
»»» Original Skunk x Citral Probably Pakistan (Chitral)
Original Skunk 
Skunk #1 (specified above)

Citral Probably Pakistan (Chitral) »»» Indica


Maybe I am just high but at times I wonder if some breeders are not getting to the point where they are creating Frankenstein s monsters that could turn out to be real pains in the pains in the butt given what we have to chose from for ferts.




> With experience, you're gonna find that if you've doing fine during veg, your troubles begin about the 3rd week into the flowering response. Remember, I told you so.


I have another theory about that one Uncle Ben, one that if correct I used to be guilty of. Sometimes people really pour on the ferts in veg trying to get all the growth they can. I used to use them heavily enough that I would look for the very slightest bit of tip burn and then back off just slightly and figured that I was then giving my plants the maximum they could use. 

Like you said three weeks into flower, even though I switched to flowering nutes, I would at times see problems. I think a buildup of vegging nutes occurs and even though someone switches to flowering nutes there is still a fair bit of vegging nutes left to be used up and the combination results in various different problems. I am fairly sure that is why people will see 'the claw' in flower. That's from excess nitrogen and even with lower nitrogen flowering nutes if there is a buildup of vegging nutes left behind the person is unintentionally giving their plants excessive amounts of nitrogen. With the leftover ferts it throws the entire balance off of what plants need while flowering, at least until they are used up or unless someone waters enough to in essence have performed at least a partial flush. 

It is just a theory of mine but it seems to fit with problems I have seen in the past and has been enough for me to alter some things I used to do and since then things flow a lot smoother for me. 






> Doing well brickman...... Hope it's going good for you too. Happy Turkey Day!


I'm glad to hear you are doing well, and I hope the same goes for Auntie. 

With Christmas not all that far away I hope the two of you are planning on spoiling yourselves a bit more than normal now that you have a couple more quarters in your pocket and a few more green pieces of paper with pictures of presidents on them lying around than in the past.

Life is short Unc, so live it up a bit! You can't take it with you and you don't win a prize for leaving the most most behind .. so enjoy!


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 22, 2010)

Nice garden wally nutter!

Hi BT! I guess what I'm getting at is based on observation and experience. Observation regarding internet gardens I've observed over many years and to a certain extent my own. Folks pour on the bloom foods starting with the flowering response which usually ends up in an "aw shit" drill starting around the 3rd week. I've done it myself. It's hard to give up paradigms, "popular" thought is a hard driver. As soon as I got heavy with some bloom food (high in P) the trouble started with chlorotic situations, tip/margin burn, premature leaf drop. It's a nutrient antagonism issue plain and simple. Potted plants and those grown in hydro just don't need alot of P, nor do they need alot of K like some of the hydro "grow" foods you see having a wacked out (combined) ratio like 1-4-8. Cannabis is a foliage plant so it requires plenty of N for support. Probably the "perfect" blossom booster for soil is Peters 10-30-20 based on it's design - a good mix of N sources (nitrate/ammonical/urea) a bump of Mg, good Fe content, etc. That's a 1-3-2 ratio which is the standard for bloom foods IMO. Folks can use something along those lines, but they should be switching back to a high N food if experiencing premature leaf drop. Now...... they aint gonna do that in most cases, they just can't think outside of the box nor break the chains of forum hyperbole..... "everyone does it".

If you're flushing the soil like you should, there should be no buildup of N salts. In fact, nitrate N salts flush out readily as they carry the same charge as soil particles.

We're living it up, hope you are too! Just bought a big ass 2010 pickup, 2011 luxury convertible sports car, commericial kegerator and other stuff, improvements to the house and such. Yeah, Christmas is gonna be OK but the wife has serious health problems, etc. Found out that indeed money does not bring you happiness, only good friends and family. My next installation is a large high tunnel greenhouse, this spring, one patio has been expanded out (rebar/concrete) and both patios will be tiled in porcelain with one open-aired section having red cedar 2X8's and lath work overhead.

nuff of the off topic stuff..... Take care and have a great T day.


UB


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## Danielsgb (Nov 22, 2010)

Very interesting UB and Bricktop. I love reading both your posts when I see them.
BT, I was wondering how the mix of land-race strains can effect the strains needs. I've read how long ago the farmers had to get new seed stock as theirs had evolved. Not sure how long that took, but I think it was several years. I saw a Green House Seeds video Strain Hunters. They were in N. India and there was a clear difference in Sativa/Indica %'s within several hundred Meters in elevation. I didn't expect that.
UB, Good to hear you're up to some cool projects. Have a good Thanksgiving.
Daniels


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## potpimp (Nov 22, 2010)

Hey Uncle Ben, we need your gi-normous brain over here on a thread.  Sorry for posting this here but your inbox was full. Thanks!

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/385463-grafting-autoflowers-onto-non-auto.html


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## xbox37 (Nov 23, 2010)

you made him feel stupid uncle ben lmfao he is not on your level of thinking next time let him think he is right


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## Desr (Nov 23, 2010)

i had no idea this was called unclebens topping tech, i just knew how to do it.. and i did it...and i have like 6.


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## rfun (Nov 23, 2010)

I followed the information on this post and just topped all of my girls, 23 of them, 2 nights ago. I used the second node method to try and get 4 colas, but I added alittle twist. Some of them were developing some small weak looking nodes on the bottom first set and even on the second. But my plants by this time were already vegging for a month so they had up to 6 and 8 nodes some 10. So what I did was cut off weak nodes at the bottom if needed and counted up 2 sets of nodes from there and then topped. Do you guys think the 4 cola technique will still work? Plant are looking fine and on one of them in particular that I applied this method to, it looks like it worked like a charm, cause the 4 branches that were left on it came in and shot straight up evenly. So I think it'll work, but I just wanted opinions from some of you guys that have been growin and topping this way for awhile. Thanks.


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## odlaw (Nov 23, 2010)

ub aint gunna be happy u chopped off nodes that didnt need chopping u just stole food source from ya babys


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## oakgrowth1 (Nov 23, 2010)

I was just thinking about this, I think it would work just fine - perhapse even better due to being higher up


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## Brick Top (Nov 24, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Hi BT! I guess what I'm getting at is based on observation and experience. Observation regarding internet gardens I've observed over many years and to a certain extent my own. Folks pour on the bloom foods starting with the flowering response which usually ends up in an "aw shit" drill starting around the 3rd week. I've done it myself. It's hard to give up paradigms, "popular" thought is a hard driver. As soon as I got heavy with some bloom food (high in P) the trouble started with chlorotic situations, tip/margin burn, premature leaf drop. It's a nutrient antagonism issue plain and simple.
> 
> If you're flushing the soil like you should, there should be no buildup of N salts. In fact, nitrate N salts flush out readily as they carry the same charge as soil particles.


Knowing that many people do not flush between the vegetative growth phase and flowering my assumption, wrong as it might be, was a buildup of vegging ferts then having flowering ferts added resulting in a mix in the soil that no cannabis plant would 'want' or thrive on. Likely you are correct though. 





> We're living it up, hope you are too! Just bought a big ass 2010 pickup, 2011 luxury convertible sports car, commericial kegerator and other stuff, improvements to the house and such. Yeah, Christmas is gonna be OK but the wife has serious health problems, etc. Found out that indeed money does not bring you happiness, only good friends and family. My next installation is a large high tunnel greenhouse, this spring, one patio has been expanded out (rebar/concrete) and both patios will be tiled in porcelain with one open-aired section having red cedar 2X8's and lath work overhead.
> 
> nuff of the off topic stuff..... Take care and have a great T day.
> 
> ...


Until I read about the health issues I was smiling and whooping it up for you. I most sincerely hope that your wife's health issues can be fully and completely dealt with soon and with as little unpleasantness for both of you as is possible. 

Best of luck to both of you!

Have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING!


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## Brick Top (Nov 24, 2010)

potpimp said:


> Hey Uncle Ben, we need your gi-normous brain over here on a thread.  Sorry for posting this here but your inbox was full. Thanks!
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/385463-grafting-autoflowers-onto-non-auto.html



Floyd the barber there just ain't whistling Dixie either. A question, or maybe more of a theory was offered, and when I began to research it I found myself going deeper and deeper down what appeared to be a bottomless hole. I made a reply, basically saying I don't have a clue, and while it seems half-long and fairly detailed I trimmed out about half or more of what I found and was at first going to say. There seems to be so many different things that factor in and that seem like they could override others, at least under some conditions but not under others and various other things to factor in that almost seems contradictory at times, but most likely it is they are just confusing to my weak brain. Possibly if you find some free time you might be able to cut through parts that really do not factor in the way I felt they do or should or might and make heads or tails of it.


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## Brick Top (Nov 24, 2010)

Danielsgb said:


> Very interesting UB and Bricktop. I love reading both your posts when I see them.
> BT, I was wondering how the mix of land-race strains can effect the strains needs. I've read how long ago the farmers had to get new seed stock as theirs had evolved. Not sure how long that took, but I think it was several years. I saw a Green House Seeds video Strain Hunters. They were in N. India and there was a clear difference in Sativa/Indica %'s within several hundred Meters in elevation. I didn't expect that.
> UB, Good to hear you're up to some cool projects. Have a good Thanksgiving.
> Daniels



It is only my opinion but based on what I have seen of Green House Seeds Strain Hunters, and what I believe in general to be true, I think few if any actual true pure landraces will be found by them I believe that at best they will locate a phenotype here or there now and then that appears to be close to the original landrace strain. 

I have never read how little, or much, elevation change is needed to cause changes in cannabis strains but elevation definitely will cause differences. While I am not a fan of the show I might like to watch that episode and see if they say, as if they would actually know for sure, if the plants had survived at the different elevations for long enough for actual evolutionary changes to occur or if the differences were purely environmental/conditional that any plant of the same strain would exhibit if grown in the same environment and conditions.


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## Brick Top (Nov 24, 2010)

xbox37 said:


> you made him feel stupid uncle ben lmfao *he is not on your level of thinking* next time let him think he is right


If you were referring to me, then you were correct, other than the being made too feel stupid part. But then you would have been correct no matter who on RIU you might have referred to. On RIU Uncle Ben is 'Da Man!'


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 24, 2010)

potpimp said:


> Hey Uncle Ben, we need your gi-normous brain over here on a thread.  Sorry for posting this here but your inbox was full. Thanks!
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/385463-grafting-autoflowers-onto-non-auto.html


Grafting an annual? Come on boyz, tell me it aint so!

Happy TG Bricktop el al!

UB


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## wangyunan (Nov 25, 2010)

Thank u UB, this is a very useful thread!
Does it cost longer to veg 4 colas till they mature enough to flower than just 1 main stem, or all of them can keep the same pace? If the vegging time is longer,
say, 4 weeks is the average time of vegging a 1 stem plant, how many weeks do u think is the average time of vegging a 4 colas plant?


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## beavhunter (Nov 25, 2010)

yeah i pinched my tops and get good results....awesome post


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 26, 2010)

wangyunan said:


> Thank u UB, this is a very useful thread!
> Does it cost longer to veg 4 colas till they mature enough to flower than just 1 main stem, or all of them can keep the same pace? If the vegging time is longer,
> say, 4 weeks is the average time of vegging a 1 stem plant, how many weeks do u think is the average time of vegging a 4 colas plant?


Vegging time is your call and dependent on your gardening skills. Topping does not stress a plant nor should it slow down it's progress or vigor.

UB


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## DB&ST (Nov 26, 2010)

Hey UB!
How do i know what are my plant real true nodes?

+ How do i know when my seedling is entering it's vegetative stage?


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## Danielsgb (Nov 26, 2010)

True node means true Cannabis shaped leaf. In other words not smooth but serrated


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## Life Goes On (Nov 26, 2010)

DB&ST said:


> Hey UB!
> How do i know what are my plant real true nodes?
> 
> + How do i know when my seedling is entering it's vegetative stage?


Your true nodes begin right after the cotyledon leaves here is a pic that should clarify things


As far as when the vegetative state begins some argue that it begins as soon as your plant emerges from beneath the soil others say it starts when the first set of fan leaves appear right after the cotyledon leaves. I have to agree with the people that say it's when the first set of fan leaves appear as it's the fan leaves that do all the work to bring food to the plant.
 This is a picture of the begining of vegitative growth. Note the first set of fan leaves right above the cotyledons


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## DB&ST (Nov 27, 2010)

Life Goes On said:


> Your true nodes begin right after the cotyledon leaves here is a pic that should clarify things
> View attachment 1290219
> 
> As far as when the vegetative state begins some argue that it begins as soon as your plant emerges from beneath the soil others say it starts when the first set of fan leaves appear right after the cotyledon leaves. I have to agree with the people that say it's when the first set of fan leaves appear as it's the fan leaves that do all the work to bring food to the plant.
> View attachment 1290221 This is a picture of the begining of vegitative growth. Note the first set of fan leaves right above the cotyledons


Thanks alot!
That sure did help clear out the subject.


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## merq (Nov 27, 2010)

Thanks for the thread, I'm going to try this technique.
The thing is I have cut some leaves (see base of my plant) very early because they turned yellow and looked very poor, I didn't want them to unnecessarily suck energy from the plant because they would die. So I am not sure where I shall cut the plant (red circle or yellow circle), to give you an idea it's about 10-13cm tall. Could you help me out?


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## lbezphil2005 (Nov 27, 2010)

MeJuana said:


> Can you do this to plants with alternating nodes? I did it already but someone said it doesn't work right, my plants look awesome but honestly I can't tell what happened til I trim them.


Can you post any pics?


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## larry956 (Nov 29, 2010)

Howdy UB, I have been following this thread for a year and have learned how to top for 4 main colas from reading just about this whole thread. I'm 2 weeks into flowering my girls, lots and lots of leaves and about 2 feet tall, very healthy. My question is the 4 main shoots have quite a few sucker (?) shoots that have grown to the point of being taller then the main tops ( all these extra shoots started on the lower nodes of the 4 mains). Is this normal ? Are they pulling energy from the main tops? Or are these girls just gonna produce alot.

Thanks for a great thread! You and Brick top are my idols!!
Larry

growroom info:
2 400 watt HPS
5 white widow plants (6 weeks veg and 2 weeks into flower- total 8 weeks)
moveable reflective sides
plants are about 2 feet from lights.
2 light nute feeding in veg state and 1 feeding a week into flowering.


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## legallyflying (Nov 30, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Topping does not stress a plant nor should it slow down it's progress or vigor.UB


LMFAO. How is that? Cutting off the growing shoot of plant causes a significant amount of stress as the wound has to be healed, you loss the ability to produce carbohydrates, and most significantly, you eliminate the apical dominance within the plant until more auxins can be produced by lower shoots to the point that they become dominant. Topping obviously iisn't going to kill your plants but it IS significantly stressful.


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## wally nutter (Nov 30, 2010)

legallyflying said:


> LMFAO. How is that? Cutting off the growing shoot of plant causes a significant amount of stress as the wound has to be healed, you loss the ability to produce carbohydrates, and most significantly, you eliminate the apical dominance within the plant until more auxins can be produced by lower shoots to the point that they become dominant. Topping obviously iisn't going to kill your plants but it IS significantly stressful.


you know how topping started??

deer


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## legallyflying (Nov 30, 2010)

I didn't think of that. You know how to identify deer browsing? The stems are always ripped up and off from the bottom as deer have tiny lower incissors and get bite through things.


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## wally nutter (Nov 30, 2010)

thats why topping isnt stressful. i mean obviously there will be some stress involved, but its minuscule as being topped is a natural phenomena.

the stressors you have to worry about are light heat and moisture


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## nas2007 (Nov 30, 2010)

wally nutter said:


> thats why topping isnt stressful. i mean obviously there will be some stress involved, but its minuscule as being topped is a natural phenomena.
> 
> the stressors you have to worry about are light heat and moisture


indeeeed lol


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## nas2007 (Nov 30, 2010)

hey UB my DP blueberry likes to thank you on the 4 main colas


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 1, 2010)

larry956 said:


> My question is the 4 main shoots have quite a few sucker (?) shoots that have grown to the point of being taller then the main tops ( all these extra shoots started on the lower nodes of the 4 mains). Is this normal ? Are they pulling energy from the main tops? Or are these girls just gonna produce alot.


The branching will occur on all 4 colas not just one, it's normal. 

Don't understand your use of the word "energy". 




legallyflying said:


> LMFAO. How is that? Cutting off the growing shoot of plant causes a significant amount of stress as the wound has to be healed, you loss the ability to produce carbohydrates, and most significantly, you eliminate the apical dominance within the plant until more auxins can be produced by lower shoots to the point that they become dominant. Topping obviously iisn't going to kill your plants but it IS significantly stressful.


There is no loss in "bodily fluids" nor is there stress related issues such as leaf loss, color, chlorosis, etc. The "wound" will heal quickly..... there is no correlation to the open stem callousing over and plant vigor or health. Now, if the plant doesn't respond with output within 24 hours, your gardening skills need attention.  



nas2007 said:


> hey UB my DP blueberry likes to thank you on the 4 main colas
> 
> View attachment 1298040


Nice job! Those are some fine looking colas.

UB


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## larry956 (Dec 1, 2010)

UB, thanks for the peace of mind on the branching, and yes all the mains have quite a few branches. Energy, meaning food and water. Plants look, and are doing great, I guess I just had to find something to worry about 
Larry


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## Irie22 (Dec 1, 2010)

Alright can somebody help me understand this in extremely simple terms? I have been reading but I really do not understand where to cut? Aside from this, can topping only be done in the early stages of the plant? For example, mine have been going for about 6.5 weeks and are about a foot and a half tall....is this too late to be thinking about this???

Any help is much appreciated.


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## Irie22 (Dec 1, 2010)

Actually they're probably more like a foot and an inch or two


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## AdamBlack760 (Dec 1, 2010)

is there and ill affects of waiting till there is more than 6 nodes tanks for the help


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 2, 2010)

Irie22 said:


> Alright can somebody help me understand this in extremely simple terms?


Fellers, read the thread beginning with the first page before posting such a redundant question which has been answered a million times.

UB
.


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## duchieman (Dec 2, 2010)

Here's mine. Jackhammer from Sannies, (Sannies Jack X Amnesia Haze), with 2 more to follow. Peace UB, thanks!


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## Irie22 (Dec 3, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Fellers, read the thread beginning with the first page before posting such a redundant question which has been answered a million times.
> 
> UB
> .


Alright, well you never explain what a cola or a node is. You never explain at what stage you started topping(like how many days or weeks into growing). You never said at what point it would be better to NOT top. I did just go back and realized that because I was not a member some of the pictures and links were dead, so sorry about that one. Without being a member i got nothing from the first page which is why I questioned. So, I'll look through the dictionary here to see what a cola and a node are. But can you please tell me timeframes? Is there a point where it is advisable not to top?


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## larry956 (Dec 3, 2010)

Irie22 said:


> Alright, well you never explain what a cola or a node is. You never explain at what stage you started topping(like how many days or weeks into growing). You never said at what point it would be better to NOT top. I did just go back and realized that because I was not a member some of the pictures and links were dead, so sorry about that one. Without being a member i got nothing from the first page which is why I questioned. So, I'll look through the dictionary here to see what a cola and a node are. But can you please tell me timeframes? Is there a point where it is advisable not to top?


Why not become a member so you can view the pictures? Page 291 has a nice diagram showing nodes and top (cola). The 1st 5 pages of this thread answer your question of the "timeframe".

Larry


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## Irie22 (Dec 3, 2010)

larry956 said:


> Why not become a member so you can view the pictures? Page 291 has a nice diagram showing nodes and top (cola). The 1st 5 pages of this thread answer your question of the "timeframe".
> 
> Larry


I obviously joined now, indicative of me posting haha. Thanks, that picture helps and I understand what colas and nodes are now. I read through most of this thread. I see where it is recommended to top(after 5-6 nodes). Can I top after 7-8 or did I wait too long? Or can one top at any time, but just do it above the 5-6 node(meaning, I have 7-8 nodes but i cut after the 5th taking off a big chunk)??


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## MeJuana (Dec 3, 2010)

God damn that 5th node question man just search the thread for 5th.. lol


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## Brick Top (Dec 4, 2010)

Irie22 said:


> Alright, well you never explain what a cola or a node is. You never explain at what stage you started topping(like how many days or weeks into growing).


Not to try to talk for Uncle Ben but at times those of us who have done this for so long sort of take it for granted that others growing know what a cola is and what a node is, etc. Because of that they are not fully described and explained in a way that would be totally clear to someone new to growing. It is like when you said; "You never explain at what stage you started topping(like how many days or weeks into growing)," well you cannot predict at what age, as in days or weeks the node you want to cut above will suddenly be there, so only the node is mentioned. 








_cotyledon_ leaves









Cola


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## Danielsgb (Dec 4, 2010)

Jesus, BT. Now that is a Cola to drool over. Didn't show the new guy a cola, you showed a COLA. Thx.
Daniels


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## Irie22 (Dec 4, 2010)

BT I appreciate the post but I feel like nobody is reading what I'm actually writing. I understand the definitions now and I stated that above your post. I read the thread as well.

MeJuana, thanks for adding nothing. I'm just trying to get a simple answer but everyone tells me to search. Isn't this a thread for questions? I read through everything and it is not conclusive to the main question I'm posing.

If my plants have 7-8 nodes, can I cut it above one of these or can I still cut it above the 5th?????? I'm not trying to clog this thread with meaningless stuff, I just wanted a little help. If this isn't the place to find it, let me know.


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## duchieman (Dec 4, 2010)

You know for UB's 4 tops you have to cut it above the second node, right? I guess I'm saying that I'm confused about the 5th node thing. I know that it is suggested that you wait until your plant has reached at least 5 nodes in height, but that's just to assure that the plant is strong enough to take the shock, which is minimal in my opinion anyway, but you still cut above the second. I didn't wait til I had 5, I cut mine as soon as the 4th was out and the 5th was starting. I hope this maybe clears up some confusion. No?


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## Dr Gruber (Dec 4, 2010)

I cut mine at the second node when they had 9 or 10 nodes and ended up with 2 strong colas, for some reason the bottom two didnt develope as well. I also did it with a clone that had asymmetrical node growth and still got 2 dom colas.


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## oldschooltofu (Dec 4, 2010)

i usually top mine and take a clone at the same time. if i have more than 4 branches i have more clones i can take. you dont HAVE to top it at any one place. ideally you want to do it early so your spending less time in veg. 

it all depends on your preference, some plants have 2 some 3, some 4 some 5...personally 3-4 is usally the best. plus you can tie them down so they inter cross and cover the entire space. 

when i am doing perpetual, i usually have to keep things cut back as they grow faster than i need to keep my numbers below Medical minimums.


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## duchieman (Dec 4, 2010)

I thought of the same thing after I posted, that if you've spent that much time vegging and you still want to to this method, you should at least get a cut or two.


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## Irie22 (Dec 5, 2010)

Thank you very much guys. That does help a lot. I just really wanted to make sure I wouldn't be hurting them if I did it now.


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## findme (Dec 5, 2010)

someone remind me as to why this is better than supercropping ( bending the main cola ) allowing the lower nodes to get light? I believe cutting your plant in anyway would lower yield.


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## duchieman (Dec 5, 2010)

findme said:


> someone remind me as to why this is better than supercropping ( bending the main cola ) allowing the lower nodes to get light? I believe cutting your plant in anyway would lower yield.


Pruning has been used in horticulture and agriculture for many, many years to improve many aspects of health resulting in better yield. It will not alone cause issues like you describe. I think you may be confused between Supercropping and LST. LST (low stress training) is the gradual bending and manipulating of the plant. Supercropping, I believe, is when you pinch, and essentially bruise and damage, parts of stems and/or branches, to create new shoots. I think that's close.

Cheers, Duchie


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## duchieman (Dec 5, 2010)

Oh, by the way. I don't know if it's better than anything else, but it sure is fun to try!


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## SL2 (Dec 5, 2010)

UB your tech works like a champ. 

I cut between 2nd and 3rd I got 4 colas, between 3rd and 4th I got six colas...just like you said...perfect. Thanks for the info! 

Im also using Dyna Grow. Love that stuff and so do my plants...anyway I have DG root gel. It has a sticker that says *"not to be used on plants intended for food or feed puposes"* what are thoughts on using this on MJ? Im affraid to use it now...

You mentioned "flushing like you are supose to" in a previous post. I am growing in soil and thought people only flush at the end of flower. Should soil plants be *"flushed"* durring the grow like between veg and flower? Or did you mean just getting a good *"run off"* with each watering / feeding?

Thanks for all your threads. Helped mt a lot.

Her are my girls...BK1 is a six and the rest 4...just like advertised....

View attachment 1306466


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## findme (Dec 5, 2010)

duchieman said:


> Pruning has been used in horticulture and agriculture for many, many years to improve many aspects of health resulting in better yield. It will not alone cause issues like you describe. I think you may be confused between Supercropping and LST. LST (low stress training) is the gradual bending and manipulating of the plant. Supercropping, I believe, is when you pinch, and essentially bruise and damage, parts of stems and/or branches, to create new shoots. I think that's close.
> 
> Cheers, Duchie


Not sure how chopping living plant matter off of a plant = pruning = better yield but I will leave that one alone.

I know topping doesn't cause issues but the facts are this, untopped plants yield more than topped plants. 

Another thing is, I would rather pinch and bruise the main cola instead of cutting it off completely. I suppose it would be better to LST but I like to supercrop because its much easier and the plants have no issue recovering within hours, not to mention it creates a stronger stem.

yeah sure, you get 2 - 4 ( and it multiplies if you keep it up) main colas with using Ub's method but it will yield less than untopped for reasons that are... or at least should be obvious to anyone. idk, maybe the majority of the people in this thread do it because they like the illusion that they believe they are getting more bud by seeing 2-4 main colas.



SL2 said:


> UB your tech works like a champ.
> 
> I cut between 2nd and 3rd I got 4 colas, between 3rd and 4th I got six colas...just like you said...perfect. Thanks for the info!
> 
> ...


I can only speak from experience but... I never flush. I believe the whole flushing idea is silly. Too many people have too much time on their hands.


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## Brick Top (Dec 5, 2010)

Irie22 said:


> BT I appreciate the post but I feel like nobody is reading what I'm actually writing. I understand the definitions now and I stated that above your post. I read the thread as well.


I apologize for attempting to be of help. I did not read every post right to the last one before I responded to what you said; 



> Originally Posted by *Irie22*  Alright, well you never explain what a cola or a node is. You never explain at what stage you started topping(like how many days or weeks into growing).


That was the last message of yours I had read before responding so I had not seen where you said you finally were able to figure out what a node was and what a cola was etc. when I attempted to be of help.

I will make every effort to not make the same error with you again and attempt to be of help just in case by then you somehow managed to figure things out.


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## odlaw (Dec 5, 2010)

FINDME i think you need to go research some horticulture books and educate yourself


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 6, 2010)

SL2 said:


> UB your tech works like a champ.
> 
> I cut between 2nd and 3rd I got 4 colas, between 3rd and 4th I got six colas...just like you said...perfect. Thanks for the info!


All it takes is a general understanding of apical dominance....the redistribution of auxins and gibberelins to dormant buds which we've talked about numerous times throughout this thread. Glad it worked out for you.



> Im also using Dyna Grow. Love that stuff and so do my plants...anyway I have DG root gel. It has a sticker that says *"not to be used on plants intended for food or feed puposes"* what are thoughts on using this on MJ? Im affraid to use it now...


Depends on how many Green lawyers are wrapped around it.  

I've used the Griffin's Spin-Out pot treatment on many an edible plant, and I'm still standing. 



> You mentioned "flushing like you are supose to" in a previous post. I am growing in soil and thought people only flush at the end of flower. Should soil plants be *"flushed"* durring the grow like between veg and flower? Or did you mean just getting a good *"run off"* with each watering / feeding?
> 
> Thanks for all your threads. Helped mt a lot.


IMO, flushing is a myth started by the Dutch as an atonement for over fertilizing.



odlaw said:


> FINDME i think you need to go research some horticulture books and educate yourself


No shit. I'm not here to teach the basics nor spoon-feed anyone. It's their responsibility to learn what makes a plant tick. If you guys keep asking the same questions that have been answered over and over and over, I'm just gonna consider you lazy and/or rude.

I bet alot of these questions are rhetorical in nature, from youth who have never grown a plant in their life nor are able to pull it off due to extenuating circumstances (currently living with Mom/Pop).

UB


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## MeJuana (Dec 7, 2010)

We don't argue methods, we try each one and settle on the one that works for us. So far the Uncle Ben method is suddenly happening to all my plants, I now take those tops I stole and confirm sex twice as fast as before.. Talk about working, this method is getting it down for me.. Not to mention plant height is not a pressing issue any longer.. This thread though is about Uncle Ben's method, where most of us have tried all other ways to do things as well. Quit harassing Uncle Ben, you might need to ask him a question some day. If you are just seeking attention from him offer him 100K cold hard cash, that is a great conversation opener.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 9, 2010)

MeJuana said:


> We don't argue methods, we try each one and settle on the one that works for us. So far the Uncle Ben method is suddenly happening to all my plants, I now take those tops I stole and confirm sex twice as fast as before.. Talk about working, this method is getting it down for me.. Not to mention plant height is not a pressing issue any longer.. This thread though is about Uncle Ben's method, where most of us have tried all other ways to do things as well. Quit harassing Uncle Ben, you might need to ask him a question some day. If you are just seeking attention from him offer him 100K cold hard cash, that is a great conversation opener.


Thanks. In case you missed my offer, I'd be glad to do a FAQ for this thread, page one, addressing the redundant issues but RIU is not cooperating.

Grow hard,
UB


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## Brick Top (Dec 9, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Thanks. In case you missed my offer, I'd be glad to do a FAQ for this thread, page one, *addressing the redundant issues *but RIU is not cooperating.
> 
> Grow hard,
> UB



At times the thread can be just like déjà vu all over again &#8230;. to use a Yogi Berra line.


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## PUKKA BUD (Dec 9, 2010)

hey

ive got a question guys my girls on her 4th node and the 5th is jus sproutin the thing is i was goin to top for 4 colas so cut above the 2nd node but the 1st an 2nd node are really small an only have 1 leaf when the 3rd an 4th are huge compared and have many. i think its due to me runnin my nutes abit to low at first. would you top my plant or would you let her grow as normal an have a try on the next run?

cheers


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 9, 2010)

PUKKA BUD said:


> hey
> 
> ive got a question guys my girls on her 4th node and the 5th is jus sproutin the thing is i was goin to top for 4 colas so cut above the 2nd node but the 1st an 2nd node are really small an only have 1 leaf when the 3rd an 4th are huge compared and have many. i think its due to me runnin my nutes abit to low at first. would you top my plant or would you let her grow as normal an have a try on the next run?
> 
> cheers


If you think your plant is healthy enough you can top. If not, I would delay it until the plant improves or try again next time.


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## bigdave21 (Dec 9, 2010)

Thanks for this post im gonna try it. ill post pix when i do


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## ANC (Dec 9, 2010)

Hey as I said before the plant I topped in UB style turned out to be a giant, and realy overshadowed the plant that I had left.... sadly it was a male.
The pic is the remaining mutant from a few weeks ago...
It has 3 of those tall arms, I just got a shitty angle when I took the pick. I guess its nature copying UB.
The middle arm was mutating pretty badly when the plant was young, so the two secondary branches below that became dominant, the middle caught up nicely with it though. Its putting out a few white hairs, but not realy in flower yet as our days are still very long. I could get it to start flowering if I move it to my old spot, but I wanna see how big it can get.






This is the base... remember this is untopped, totaly naturaly grown.


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## katwoman2012 (Dec 10, 2010)

Is this guy posting this crap on all tutorials or just random pages?


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## K21701 (Dec 10, 2010)

katwoman2012 said:


> Is this guy posting this crap on all tutorials or just random pages?


Not sure but I keep seeing this same bullshit garbage every where I go!!!!


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## katwoman2012 (Dec 10, 2010)

To get back to the subject, here is the one I'm waiting on next with the large four colas. It was cut exactly according to the picture on the first page  Thank you UB.


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## nas2007 (Dec 10, 2010)

PUKKA BUD said:


> hey
> 
> ive got a question guys my girls on her 4th node and the 5th is jus sproutin the thing is i was goin to top for 4 colas so cut above the 2nd node but the 1st an 2nd node are really small an only have 1 leaf when the 3rd an 4th are huge compared and have many. i think its due to me runnin my nutes abit to low at first. would you top my plant or would you let her grow as normal an have a try on the next run?
> 
> cheers


let her go abit longer you will see the growth comming from the 1st and 2cnd node then just top wont b long now


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## Tarkett (Dec 10, 2010)

Awesome man! I used your guide and its working!


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## axl (Dec 11, 2010)

how much extra veg time is required after a top for 4 main colas. Can I top, wait 5 days or so and flower with decent yeilds?

Im at 6 nodes high now, would i yeild more flowering in 5 days, or topping now then flowering in 5 days?


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## wally nutter (Dec 11, 2010)

from my experience, under a nice HID light, in a week the size will have at least doubled. as for a delay, only about 24 hours.



axl said:


> how much extra veg time is required after a top for 4 main colas. Can I top, wait 5 days or so and flower with decent yeilds?
> 
> Im at 6 nodes high now, would i yeild more flowering in 5 days, or topping now then flowering in 5 days?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 11, 2010)

katwoman2012 said:


> To get back to the subject, here is the one I'm waiting on next with the large four colas. It was cut exactly according to the picture on the first page  Thank you UB.


Keep 'em green!


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## Mikey996 (Dec 12, 2010)

Is this possible with an clone?


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## wally nutter (Dec 12, 2010)

Mikey996 said:


> Is this possible with an clone?


yes it is possible


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## Mikey996 (Dec 12, 2010)

Oh thanks will definitely have to try this out now.


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## duchieman (Dec 12, 2010)

November 27 to Dec 8. 11 days.


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## schoolmeplz (Dec 16, 2010)

duchieman said:


> November 27 to Dec 8. 11 days.
> 
> 
> View attachment 1321170View attachment 1321171View attachment 1321172View attachment 1321173View attachment 1321174View attachment 1321175View attachment 1321180View attachment 1321179


I looooove these pics, thanks, it makes me feel better about my ugly lil tree....I accidentally let it get WAYYYY to hot and I had pull dead leaves off, then remembering having read about uncle bens topping tek I went for it...and my lil plant looks like yours in the beginning stages...Im just hoping she makes it, its a fem Nrthrn Lghts and between me and my cats my lil ladies arent having the break they need! Thanks to all who have explained this time and time and time again, I have been following along since pg 1 when the comment was made about top above 3 and get 8 colas, in essence Im a "topper" by accident .....


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## HUNTERLEVELL (Dec 16, 2010)

i see your pic about topping at the second true node to get 4 main colas, hard to say on mine which is the 2nd? well for me anyways!! right above the cytoledon or those round leaves theres what looks like the first node but im not sure as the leave has only one point leaf and not the usual 3 points like the first baby leaves on most ive seen. would that still be the first true node? and if you know what this stuff is all over my leaf could you help me fix it!!!!thanks UB
and this last one my question is ive taken the first 2 nodes for clones so if i were to top above the second node now would it give me the same outcome?


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## HUNTERLEVELL (Dec 16, 2010)

well nm about the topping on the small ones the post above mine shows what i was asking!thanks but if you could tell me somethin about the discolor on the leaf that would be awesome?!!! thanks to all


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## duchieman (Dec 16, 2010)

HUNTERLEVELL said:


> i see your pic about topping at the second true node to get 4 main colas, hard to say on mine which is the 2nd? well for me anyways!! right above the cytoledon or those round leaves theres what looks like the first node but im not sure as the leave has only one point leaf and not the usual 3 points like the first baby leaves on most ive seen. would that still be the first true node? View attachment 1328608View attachment 1328610and if you know what this stuff is all over my leaf could you help me fix it!!!!thanks UBView attachment 1328611
> and this last one my question is ive taken the first 2 nodes for clones so if i were to top above the second node now would it give me the same outcome?View attachment 1328613


In pic 2 you are holding branch for the first node and just above that is the second. Looks like you cut at the third or higher, I don't know cause I cant see it. You can do it with a clone too but I haven't tried it yet and I'm not sure how to do it with staggering leaves as opposed to opposing cause I just haven't got there yet. I would think a node is a node. And for your leaf problem I can't help you there either, sorry, but there's a sticky in the forum that covers plant problems.


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## K21701 (Dec 16, 2010)

Okay this will be my first time topping so I just want be sure I will be topping her in the right place:


In the red circle if that one leaf wasn't in the way is where I would top right where the red line is ....yes?


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## Longtimetoker (Dec 16, 2010)

Ladies and gentleman, you're making this topping thing too difficult. Go back and read page 1 of the thread and your questions will be answered!


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## K21701 (Dec 16, 2010)

Longtimetoker said:


> Ladies and gentleman, you're making this topping thing too difficult. Go back and read page 1 of the thread and your questions will be answered!


I have read the thread...all I am asking for is confirmation, which you could have given in less time then it took you to write your response.


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 16, 2010)

Its not rocket science people. Top above the 3 bladed leaves and you're done.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 17, 2010)

K21701 said:


> Okay this will be my first time topping so I just want be sure I will be topping her in the right place:
> View attachment 1329075
> 
> In the red circle if that one leaf wasn't in the way is where I would top right where the red line is ....yes?


You posted a photo of a plant whereby a leaf is hiding the nodes, and you want a confirmation?

Sheesh, 149 pages and some of you are asking the same questions. READ the first page and study the photos, since you guys will not or can not grasp the simple concept of hormonal influences as it relates to apical dominance. If you understood those concepts which I've explained many times, you wouldn't be so apprenhensive about how, when, and where.

Good luck,
UB


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## K21701 (Dec 17, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> You posted a photo of a plant whereby a leaf is hiding the nodes, and you want a confirmation?
> 
> Sheesh, 149 pages and some of you are asking the same questions. READ the first page and study the photos, since you guys will not or can not grasp the simple concept of hormonal influences as it relates to apical dominance. If you understood those concepts which I've explained many times, you wouldn't be so apprenhensive about how, when, and where.
> 
> ...


Why is it that some can ask the question and get some really nice folks to help them out and others get bitched at and talked down to???? I am not some 17 year old punk ass kid who deserves to be treated like an idiot and talked to that way. Thanks for all your help and you have a wonderful day....


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## VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO (Dec 17, 2010)

K21701 said:


> Why is it that some can ask the question and get some really nice folks to help them out and others get bitched at and talked down to???? I am not some 17 year old punk ass kid who deserves to be treated like an idiot and talked to that way. Thanks for all your help and you have a wonderful day....


Look at your pic, you want him to tell you it's o.k to cut it somewhere, yet the place you asked for is blocked by a leaf. And if he tells you it's o,k and you fuck it up, then your gonna blame him because he said to do it. If you would have posted a better picture, I bet you would have got a better response. Now I bet he won't help you at all. Just sayin.


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## K21701 (Dec 17, 2010)

VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO said:


> Look at your pic, you want him to tell you it's o.k to cut it somewhere, yet the place you asked for is blocked by a leaf. And if he tells you it's o,k and you fuck it up, then your gonna blame him because he said to do it. If you would have posted a better picture, I bet you would have got a better response. Now I bet he won't help you at all. Just sayin.


No worries...I won't be asking


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## CO medical (Dec 17, 2010)

great thread. heres my question:

when starting from clones, how do you ID the 2nd true node? just pick the 2nd node up?


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## DrFever (Dec 17, 2010)

i topped in week 3 of veg and now i got 5 colas goin


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 17, 2010)

CO medical said:


> great thread. heres my question:
> 
> when starting from clones, how do you ID the 2nd true node? just pick the 2nd node up?


Locate your four most developed lateral branches, and top above them. The few times I have done this resulted in 4 colas.


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## Bigwad2 (Dec 19, 2010)

lazypothead420 said:


> Do you have any closer pics of where u would top for only 2 cola's? Also is this method ideal for sog?


Do you have any closer pictures of that profile photo?


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## wake.n.bake (Dec 22, 2010)

I will be using UB's topping technique on my first grow. + rep for the great info.


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## DaLeftHandMan (Dec 25, 2010)

THANKS UB. i am enlightened! ^_^ just got done with my first successful grow and am about to transplant my new babies into the main grow chamber, they are all about to tier up to their first node, so i will def be snippin 'em after that second node! whats better then one top?! uuh duh! 4!! great post! +++rep


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## jungobo (Dec 26, 2010)

great thread, good advise.
topped three of my plants today exactly as UB described. just for the curiosity i topped one above the third node and the others above the second.
just a small question, do you need to train the first two branches until the lower ones will match in height or this will happen anyway ? 



View attachment 1346058View attachment 1346059View attachment 1346060View attachment 1346061


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 26, 2010)

jungobo said:


> great thread, good advise.
> topped three of my plants today exactly as UB described. just for the curiosity i topped one above the third node and the others above the second.
> just a small question, do you need to train the first two branches until the lower ones will match in height or this will happen anyway ?
> 
> ...


Sometimes they will catch up, other times the two highest tops will become dominant. If you see the upper tops outgrowing the lower ones, then I would lst them to let the lower ones to catch up.


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## frogster (Dec 26, 2010)

Im a total noob and I dont see why this thread is this long,,, Ben explained it well,read again, or again then just cut the girl and get it over with... Ben , just make a new thread (sticky) and lock it out... Great job btw.. appreciate the info put so clearly!!


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## jjp53 (Dec 27, 2010)

Hey Tio, I was just wondering what would happen if you topped every branch that came out of the plant?


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## zizou21 (Dec 27, 2010)

Awesome guide. But I am wondering if I should also be LSTing after I top it like the OP described. I have about 5 feet of room from the ground to the bulb - should I just use UB's topping technique and forget about training?


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## Hardbuck (Dec 27, 2010)

I would. Not a fan of LST the "S" is for stress which can't be a good thing


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 27, 2010)

Hardbuck said:


> I would. Not a fan of LST the "S" is for stress which can't be a good thing


Its clear you have never LST'd a plant, so you probably shouldn't speculate on something you have little to no experience with. 

LST'ing a plant isn't stressing it out. There is no harm whatsoever done to the plant. Unless, you happen to snap a branch. 

Zizou, I would definitely tie the plants down during pre-flowering at least. This will spread open your main growth points allowing for greater light penetration to the middle and lower parts of your plants.


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## nas2007 (Dec 28, 2010)

zizou21 said:


> Awesome guide. But I am wondering if I should also be LSTing after I top it like the OP described. I have about 5 feet of room from the ground to the bulb - should I just use UB's topping technique and forget about training?


i would defnly LST!! its so much worth it when you top for 4 colas, then you can do the (X) plant like this


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 28, 2010)

frogster said:


> Im a total noob and I dont see why this thread is this long,,, Ben explained it well,read again, or again then just cut the girl and get it over with... Ben , just make a new thread (sticky) and lock it out... Great job btw.. appreciate the info put so clearly!!


1. Glad you got it. 2. I'm not gonna do anything more as I have nothing to gain from it. I've requested RIU unlock my edit option so I could set up a FAQ profile on the first page.



jjp53 said:


> Hey Tio, I was just wondering what would happen if you topped every branch that came out of the plant?


The cause-effect of topping.


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## Alganj (Dec 28, 2010)

Uncle ben,

I have a question. I enjoyed your reading on *Selecting the point for topping to get 4 main colas* -

Do the new COLAs come out of the cutting location? How many New COLAS form? Im confused if 4 new COLAS grow, or if only 2 NEW ones grow and the 3rd and 4th are at the node below


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 28, 2010)

Alganj said:


> Uncle ben,
> 
> I have a question. I enjoyed your reading on *Selecting the point for topping to get 4 main colas* -
> 
> Do the new COLAs come out of the cutting location? How many New COLAS form? Im confused if 4 new COLAS grow, or if only 2 NEW ones grow and the 3rd and 4th are at the node below


Alganj, Ill answer this one for you, so that you can be saved a rightfully deserved bashing from UB .

You'll generally have two shoots at each node. Remove the Apical Meristem, and those shoots and other shoots at lower nodes will be allowed to grow unhindered by the inhibitory effects of auxins, until new shoots resume the role of apical dominance. 

I hope that cleared up your questions.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 28, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Alganj, Ill answer this one for you, so that you can be saved a rightfully deserved bashing from UB .


Son of a bitch, does any one do anything other than extend their hand out? Want me to grow that damn plant out fer some of you guys?

In *the first post of this thread* I addressed your question Alganj.


> The result will be a redistribution of the auxins and other hormones that normally collect in the tissue of the terminal leader's tip. These ho moans will be redistributed to dormant buds that reside in the nodal axis where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk", below the cut. The new foliar output response will be quick (within 24 hrs., see photo below)


Thanks and Happy New Year Dave!


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## DaveCoulier (Dec 28, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Son of a bitch, does any one do anything other than extend their hand out? Want me to grow that damn plant out fer some of you guys?
> 
> In *the first post of this thread* I addressed your question Alganj.
> 
> Thanks and Happy New Year Dave!


You can grow a few plants out for me! Ive got my hands full over here.

Happy new years to you as well.


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## CoralGrower (Dec 28, 2010)

300 pages on how to make a single cut to a plant.....amusing for sure.


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## zizou21 (Dec 29, 2010)

Guys, this is my first plant so I want to make sure i'm doing this right. 








Should I keep waiting for 2 more nodes? Am I right to not count the really short node at the bottom (not the cotyledons, but just really small branches and leaves)?


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## riddleme (Dec 29, 2010)

zizou21 said:


> Guys, this is my first plant so I want to make sure i'm doing this right.
> 
> 
> Should I keep waiting for 2 more nodes? Am I right to not count the really short node at the bottom (not the cotyledons, but just really small branches and leaves)?


Quote from page one of this thread,,,,,,,,,,,,,



> To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node. The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count


pretty clear everything but the coty's is a node


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## zizou21 (Dec 29, 2010)

so that little branch right above the coty, which is probably half an inch long (Compared to the node above it, which has branches 6-8 times+ its size) counts as a node then? So once I top this plant, it's gona have a really distinguished node and a really small one under it? Good to know.


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## hogs (Jan 1, 2011)

Hey Uncle...

Well just got through the 300 pages...MAn only took the last few nights..but was worth ever second of it...

Not only does one learn the basics of your first page LoL but all the the other items, topics that come from within....

You are a Blessing to this world of plants in general... as well as a hand full of others that gave their time here helping out answering a few questions from time to time.....

I don`t know you at all , But seems I know alot more of your views etc. when it comes to growing plants in general...

All the best to you and your Wife etc.etc and hope what ever bothers her goes away.. and you all have a Good 2011 YEAR...
LoL Now I got to spend another few weeks reading all your other threads etc etc..


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## Nullis (Jan 1, 2011)

This is a S.A.G.E. clone I cut above the 4th or 5th node. I believe I've succeeded. She's down for a transplant, then flower time.
​


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## convict156326 (Jan 1, 2011)

heyUB, great thread. ive grown outdoors but 1st indoor. do i top the same way? i learned about topping from deer. one of my patches was on their trail and they kept biting off the fresh green tips. i wonderd at first why this one patch grew so much better, was 3 weeks till i was able to figure it out then.


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## Danielsgb (Jan 1, 2011)

Here's an example of a Purple Rain I started that ended up a male. I top all mine as I think it fills a canopy better.
Daniels


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 2, 2011)

convict156326 said:


> heyUB, great thread. ive grown outdoors but 1st indoor. do i top the same way? i learned about topping from deer. one of my patches was on their trail and they kept biting off the fresh green tips. i wonderd at first why this one patch grew so much better, was 3 weeks till i was able to figure it out then.


It's totally up to you regarding apical dominance and what you're trying to achieve. When you take out the tip of a dominant leader, it kicks in a hormonal response behind the cut.



Danielsgb said:


> Here's an example of a Purple Rain I started that ended up a male. I top all mine as I think it fills a canopy better.


Nice! As an aside, if you know of a local gardener (or you) that composts commercially, top dress your pots with a 2" layer of fine compost. It will provide the balance nutrionally you seek. I got 6.5 cu. yds. of the finest compost you can imagine delivered for $150. Compsed of green material like leaves, twigs, horse manure.

Happy NY,
UB
.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 2, 2011)

hogs said:


> Hey Uncle...
> 
> Well just got through the 300 pages...MAn only took the last few nights..but was worth ever second of it...
> 
> ...


You've got more patience than me! At least you got thru page one and two lol. 

Happy New Year to you and yours too.

Grow hard,
UB


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## Pipe Dream (Jan 2, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Son of a bitch, does any one do anything other than extend their hand out? Want me to grow that damn plant out fer some of you guys?
> 
> In *the first post of this thread* I addressed your question Alganj.
> 
> Thanks and Happy New Year Dave!


Classy! Y did you make the thread if you dont want to help people?


----------



## odlaw (Jan 2, 2011)

Pipe Dream said:


> Classy! Y did you make the thread if you dont want to help people?


hey pipe dream maybe you lazy like all the other peeps that keep asking questions which are all explained on page one


a lil bit of research goes along way man rather than just asking questions that have been answered multiple times and having others do the work for you, you should try doin a lil bit of reading b4 asking questions


----------



## Pipe Dream (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm just saying that it is unclear, seems to be that way on purpose to confuse them and stroke UB's ego. If you ask him he calls you a dumbass and doesn't answer your ?. All it takes is a simple answer and he wouldn't get asked the same question over and over. I know how bout not cropping the pic of the plant being pruned, that would help a ton. How does wanting to do it right the first time make you lazy? Oh because I don't wanna read 300 pages of mostly unimportant posts? Don't mean to be unfriendly but I fucked it up plenty of times before someone simply sowed me what i was doing wrong. I'm over it really I just lost a lot of respect when I was treated like a fool.


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## Danielsgb (Jan 2, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice! As an aside, if you know of a local gardener (or you) that composts commercially, top dress your pots with a 2" layer of fine compost. It will provide the balance nutrionally you seek. I got 6.5 cu. yds. of the finest compost you can imagine delivered for $150. Compsed of green material like leaves, twigs, horse manure.
> 
> Happy NY,
> UB
> .


I'll look into that at my local nursery. I'll ask for Fine Compost. Always looking for balance.

I have been meaning to tell you about this.
My Uncle was in town for a Dr. appointment. We decided to tell him about my grow set up. He is a farmer and rancher. He has an apple orchard too. He laughed about the FrigiDare plant.
We discussed topping as it relates to apple trees and my Cannabis. He agreed on such high P levels being counter productive as it is so slowly released. He is fully into Organics, but he's also very into the preservatives being bad for us. More so on his Cattle as we eat that meat. 
He liked the Jack's 20-20-20 and it's micro's. He couldn't believe they have some canna-specific fertilizer, and totally agreed on it being





I'm still using my gallon of Alaska Fish Emulsion 5-1-1, but we get F.E. by the 5 gallon bucket for the flower gardens from him. He didn't remember it's N-P-K but they get it by the Pallet container. He said he'll get me some humic acid too.
Thanks for all the help & I hope the New Year has a bumper crop coming for ya.
Daniels


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## zizou21 (Jan 3, 2011)

I feel bad for Uncle Ben. He is the first person I have found to write a guide intelligibly AND with proper grammar, yet everyone seems to be asking him simple questions that are answered in his post.. However, when I read terrible, incomprehensible guides with no detail or explanation whatsoever and I am left with thousands of questions, noo ne has any, and all the posts in the thread are "best guide ever dood! thxx"

makes no sense to me..


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 3, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> I'll look into that at my local nursery. I'll ask for Fine Compost. Always looking for balance.
> 
> I have been meaning to tell you about this.
> My Uncle was in town for a Dr. appointment. We decided to tell him about my grow set up. He is a farmer and rancher. He has an apple orchard too. He laughed about the FrigiDare plant.


I can imagine. Probably said, "it aint natural", O Brother style. 



> We discussed topping as it relates to apple trees and my Cannabis. He agreed on such high P levels being counter productive as it is so slowly released. He is fully into Organics, but he's also very into the preservatives being bad for us. More so on his Cattle as we eat that meat.


I have friends that raise their own calves to butcher, plus chickens, etc. At least they know what's in them. Neighbor won't eat meat unless it's been locally harvested (shot.....like antelope, deer). I eat what I want, and have a complete blood chemistry done about once a year. So far, so good. 

Regarding plant culture, the best balance I've found is using chemicals, salts, to balance out what might be deficient in my organics and parent soil material. For example, I just sent off my friend's "black gold" sample to the TX A&M Soil and Water testing lab for analysis. My guess is the results will show it to be a little deficient in N and rather acidic. That's based on the green material which the city picks up via a vacuum truck that he has delivered. Those collections are leaves, twigs, and ground mulch from oaks, sycamores, elms, pecans and such and of course, spent Christmas trees now. Friend uses a 10:1 ratio (green/manure) for composting in these huge, long wind-rows which are turned and wetted down by a 227 HP Cummings engine gadget on tracks.....a 12' swath. Nurseries are too expensive. Try your landfill. More than likely they have a composting program and will give away some mighty fine compost, large or small grade. You want the fines for mixing, coarser material for top dressing your pots.

Horse manure is damn close, naturally, to the ratio you should seek as a standard food - 3-1-2.



zizou21 said:


> I feel bad for Uncle Ben. He is the first person I have found to write a guide intelligibly AND with proper grammar, yet everyone seems to be asking him simple questions that are answered in his post.


If they can't get it after reading page one and two, it's their problem. 

Back to the old grind for most of you folks, it's Monday of a new year, so rise and shine!

UB


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## casey0000000 (Jan 3, 2011)

hey i topped one of my plant at the 2nd and 4 new ones grew. but if i cut those will 8 grow? and can i start cloning if my plants are 4weeks into veg


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## zizou21 (Jan 3, 2011)

Just topped both my plants 

so nervous


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## Danielsgb (Jan 3, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> I can imagine. Probably said, "it aint natural", O Brother style.
> 
> I have friends that raise their own calves to butcher, plus chickens, etc. At least they know what's in them. Neighbor won't eat meat unless it's been locally harvested (shot.....like antelope, deer). I eat what I want, and have a complete blood chemistry done about once a year. So far, so good.
> 
> ...


Thanks UB, I'll call the Landfill tomorrow to check if they have some. Pretty sure we get free access since we recycle all yard waste.
I've been trying something a little different on my *Well Here Goes Again *with an f1 cross Purple Rain that seems to be a hog for nutes. I've been using RiddleMe's 'make it rain' and using Jack's 20-20-20 and sometimes Fish Emulsion too & I added some Morbloom 0-10-10 to the Jack's as flowering began. 
I noticed on the label for the Fish Emulsion that the strength for dosages in varied a lot, so that means too high a strength is harder, right? By leeching the soil then feeding as they need moisture I seem to be getting good growth. 
So do you think adding organics to Jack's to anticipate deficiencies as worthwhile? I thought chemical fert.'s are absorbed faster, but since the soil is leeched about a week to 10 days apart I'm less scared of a nute burn.
Still trying to learn to read them. It's pretty heavy on the Sativa side. Most of a Sativa cross, I've grown indoors. 
Daniels


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## convict156326 (Jan 4, 2011)

hey i followed the instructions on the topping here on page 1 lol i did read first. ive topped outdoors but never cut this much off of a plant before. should my stem be hollow? i mean seriously im looking down a good inch INTO the stem. its been around 3 and a half hours since i topped.


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## zizou21 (Jan 4, 2011)

Yo guys I topped my plants yesterday but I actually cut about half an inch above the second node, so I went back today and cut whatever was sticking out above the 2nd node. Should be ok right?


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 4, 2011)

Yes, it'll be fine.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 5, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> ......So do you think adding organics to Jack's to anticipate deficiencies as worthwhile? I thought chemical fert.'s are absorbed faster, but since the soil is leeched about a week to 10 days apart I'm less scared of a nute burn.
> Still trying to learn to read them. It's pretty heavy on the Sativa side. Most of a Sativa cross, I've grown indoors.
> Daniels


Jack's Classics are pretty complete and designed for soil. Don't really know what deficiencies you speak of. IOW, is "this" a fact or a feeling? 

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 5, 2011)

zizou21 said:


> Just topped both my plants
> 
> so nervous


I hope you sterilized your blade!


----------



## zizou21 (Jan 5, 2011)

It's been a little over 24 hrs and I see no change


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## Dr Gruber (Jan 5, 2011)

Here are some shots of a Sour Diesel I topped with UB's method.
Thanks UB!


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## tucker1 (Jan 5, 2011)

uncle Ben can youn tell me exactly where to prune for the four colas cause I im a first grow rookie
fisrt off from seeds you get the 2 round leafs then single leafs then 3 fingers leaf now is this what you call the 2nd true node??and top just above that node??
thanks tucker1


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## zizou21 (Jan 5, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> I hope you sterilized your blade!


what would happen if i didn't...


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 5, 2011)

zizou21 said:


> what would happen if i didn't...


Your first born will have flippers instead of large fingers. Not a bad thing if your family is into being the next pinball wizard champ.


----------



## Dr Gruber (Jan 5, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Your first born will have flippers instead of large fingers. Not a bad thing if your family is into being the next pinball wizard champ.


LOLOLOL!
You're Killin Me!


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## convict156326 (Jan 5, 2011)

Uncle Ben, i followed your guide and trusted your judgement, these are the direct results
both plants are labella strawberry from the same plant, same conditions, only diference is about a week of cfl light on the topped plant and the toppping itself. hope this is a decent thank you
pics t3 through t10 pretty much say it all i threw in pic 6 i think as another sbs comp


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## zizou21 (Jan 6, 2011)

Where should I be looking at for the first changes on the plant after the cut? Look for an extra branches growing out of the already existing nodes? 

I'm still not seeing any change with my plant 

Should have sterilized that blade :[


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 6, 2011)

convict156326 said:


> Uncle Ben, i followed your guide and trusted your judgement, these are the direct results
> both plants are labella strawberry from the same plant, same conditions, only diference is about a week of cfl light on the topped plant and the toppping itself. hope this is a decent thank you
> pics t3 through t10 pretty much say it all i threw in pic 6 i think as another sbs comp


Photo #4, top line, shows the cut above an alternate node, so expect the output from that top node to be dominant. IOW, looks like you'll have one main cola. Plants look good though. Good luck!



zizou21 said:


> Where should I be looking at for the first changes on the plant after the cut? Look for an extra branches growing out of the already existing nodes?
> 
> I'm still not seeing any change with my plant
> 
> Should have sterilized that blade :[


I was kidding about the blade.  You can use nose hair clippers if you want. 

If you haven't seen any output yet, you have plant health/vigor issues. Has nothing to do with the topping. 

Be patient and go back to page one, first photo of the first post. 

UB


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## Danielsgb (Jan 6, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Jack's Classics are pretty complete and designed for soil. Don't really know what deficiencies you speak of. IOW, is "this" a fact or a feeling?
> 
> Good luck,
> UB


I guess I worded that wrong. 'Anticipate deficiencies' sounds odd. I was under feeding them in the beginning so lost a couple lowest fan leaves. In the past I have been worried of over doing it and this new strain is comparatively a hog. To think I planned on 6 or more strains a year ago. 
Thankfully you and RiddleMe recommended to drop that to 1 or 2, a year ago. I may be over thinking this. 
It's a 'feeling' for sure. I'm trying to learn to recognize the beginning of them needing more. By 'learning to read' them I got my watering down, but I figured you mean more than that. I'm looking to hold off any lock-out or deficiencies before I get them.
Daniels


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 6, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> I guess I worded that wrong. 'Anticipate deficiencies' sounds odd. I was under feeding them in the beginning so lost a couple lowest fan leaves. In the past I have been worried of over doing it and this new strain is comparatively a hog. To think I planned on 6 or more strains a year ago.
> Thankfully you and RiddleMe recommended to drop that to 1 or 2, a year ago. I may be over thinking this.
> It's a 'feeling' for sure. I'm trying to learn to recognize the beginning of them needing more. By 'learning to read' them I got my watering down, but I figured you mean more than that. I'm looking to hold off any lock-out or deficiencies before I get them.
> Daniels


It's when you get to extremes with anything that you get into trouble - salt ratios, light, temp, water apps, etc. There's alot to be said regarding "safety" and a balance by just going with a 20-20-20.


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## convict156326 (Jan 6, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Photo #4, top line, shows the cut above an alternate node, so expect the output from that top node to be dominant. IOW, looks like you'll have one main cola. Plants look good though. Good luck!
> 
> so i did it wrong, can i recut, nm the guy above me aready answerd that, i topped my cred right as the 5th node was forming, new growth. think i did it right this time, did it like i would have outside. with the cred im doing 3 plants one lst one topped, adnd one just growing as she wants, ill put up pics as they go if it doesnt seem like im tryin to jack your thread.
> im still learning how to grow indoors and post pics in correct order, inline and all that hopefully by my next post i can have everything nice and neat


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## convict156326 (Jan 7, 2011)

ok as simple as i can get it. the black lines are the nodes. each maked up till top where nodes 5 and 6 are 

the yellow line is where i cut right above the second node

this is what i cut off 

correct? i thought i did it correctly but then left the extra node on the labella you said would be my main dominant cola. this cred should have 4 tops correct?


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## Danielsgb (Jan 7, 2011)

Looks right to me.


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## convict156326 (Jan 7, 2011)

i thought so too, till i was told i did it wrong lqtm


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## IloveGanjaherbmaryjane420 (Jan 8, 2011)

So if im topping it just above the second node... when is it time to flower? let it grow back up to 8+ inches let it grow back to 8-10 internoders ??.. and whats the stuff i was reading about not flushing? do you not flush your plants of the nutes before harvest?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 8, 2011)

convict156326 said:


> i thought so too, till i was told i did it wrong lqtm


Again, plant #4, top line, looks to be in a state of alternate phytolaxxy, reason why I commented the way I did.

Some of you guys are making this simple concept way too hard. Let's try this another way - cut below the 3rd set (node) of opposing leafsets. 

UB


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## puck1969 (Jan 8, 2011)

LOL this thread keep's goin' round and round. It may help if people start from the beginning of the thread, it's been 
explained many different way's. It's a simple concept. .


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 8, 2011)

puck1969 said:


> It may help if people start from the beginning of the thread, it's been
> explained many different way's.


Yep. If they don't get it after reading and looking at the photos on page one, they're never gonna get it. Don't be lazy and don't be rude people - read the first page.

UB


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## IloveGanjaherbmaryjane420 (Jan 8, 2011)

not for nothin but this is a 300 page thread i read first like 20 pages i just have those 2 questions


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## riddleme (Jan 8, 2011)

IloveGanjaherbmaryjane420 said:


> not for nothin but this is a 300 page thread i read first like 20 pages i just have those 2 questions


300 pages that I have read 3 times, full of priceless info (like all of UB's threads)

once again, thank you UB !


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## convict156326 (Jan 8, 2011)

to you this seems easy. you have done this before. if i gave you just an instruction manual on how to rebuild a motor would you do it and hope for the best? or call your mechanic buddy a few questions first. im new to indoor growing some of the things that seem easy or obvious to you experienced growers is scary to us noobs. i read the first 20 pages, tryin to get this down, then finally made my cut, and looky i did it wrong, still gonna have the dom cola.


----------



## riddleme (Jan 8, 2011)

IloveGanjaherbmaryjane420 said:


> So if im topping it just above the second node... when is it time to flower? let it grow back up to 8+ inches let it grow back to 8-10 internoders ??.. and whats the stuff i was reading about not flushing? do you not flush your plants of the nutes before harvest?


plant is mature and ready to flower as soon as the nodes begin to alternate, but you can flower anytime you want and it should be planned to fit your garden

UB has a famous saying about flushing,,,,"Plant is not a toilet, you can't flush it" you can leech the soil but you can't flush the plant

end product is all about the cure, I don't flush and I feed to the end, never had a complaint


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## IloveGanjaherbmaryjane420 (Jan 8, 2011)

so basicly clip it where UB says and let it grow back to the size that you would normally flower it, then flower it. right.


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## DaLeftHandMan (Jan 8, 2011)

Just for those newbs still a little sketched out about cutting up your plants, TRUST me, another newb, this thread is good as gold...i actually cut 3 of my 4 plants right in front of my PC as i read this post, using the pics to be sure. that was less then 2 weeks ago! my plants are now amazingly split and tripled in size! i know for sure 2 of the 3 will have 4 colas, the 3rd looks odd, like compressed down and trying to spread wide.but ya, wish i could give a super rep for this post! thanks UB!


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 8, 2011)

convict156326 said:


> to you this seems easy. you have done this before. if i gave you just an instruction manual on how to rebuild a motor would you do it and hope for the best? or call your mechanic buddy a few questions first. im new to indoor growing some of the things that seem easy or obvious to you experienced growers is scary to us noobs. i read the first 20 pages, tryin to get this down, then finally made my cut, and looky i did it wrong, still gonna have the dom cola.


I understand your apprehension. Relax, if you get one main cola, so what? At least you've learned something about what makes a plant tick. Watch and learn.



IloveGanjaherbmaryjane420 said:


> so basicly clip it where UB says and let it grow back to the size that you would normally flower it, then flower it. right.


That'll work, but it's still YOUR call. No one has your garden....plan your grow and grow out your plan.



DaLeftHandMan said:


> Just for those newbs still a little sketched out about cutting up your plants, TRUST me, another newb, this thread is good as gold...i actually cut 3 of my 4 plants right in front of my PC as i read this post, using the pics to be sure. that was less then 2 weeks ago! my plants are now amazingly split and tripled in size! i know for sure 2 of the 3 will have 4 colas, the 3rd looks odd, like compressed down and trying to spread wide.but ya, wish i could give a super rep for this post! thanks UB!


One only has to grow out a pure sativa indoors to quickly lose their fear when it comes to topping a plant LOL.

Appreciate the kind words riddleme, and Happy New Year.

Grow hard,
UB


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## IloveGanjaherbmaryjane420 (Jan 8, 2011)

well, after you pinch your plants, when do you pref to flower your plants UB??


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 9, 2011)

IloveGanjaherbmaryjane420 said:


> well, after you pinch your plants, when do you pref to flower your plants UB??


That's a loaded question, best answer is "whenever they are ready". Perhaps 12-14" tall indoors or 4 weeks from germ, 18" tall outdoors.

Everyone's rate of growth and vigor are different than the other guy, this is an example of mine: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html As reflected in photo #9 (a male plant that was destroyed) this is the kind of plant health, leaf retention, and medium green leaf color that you should be striving for, UNTIL HARVEST. I might add such plant health/vigor wasn't from using any cannabis specific plant foods or parroted forum mantras or popular culture such as the mythical "flushing" drill. Twas quite the opposite. 

UB


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## IloveGanjaherbmaryjane420 (Jan 9, 2011)

this seems like a good way to get more without having to have so many plants.. looks like the other buds get more light too... very helpful thanks


----------



## Alganj (Jan 9, 2011)

can uncle ben or anyone else, critique my FIMMing job please?

The first 2 pics are my super lemon haze. She had about 8 tight nodes or so.

the 3rd and 4th pics are my Royal Queen Super Kush #1 

Thanks
View attachment 1372463View attachment 1372464View attachment 1372466View attachment 1372467

also, while you are at it, look how droopy the leaves are on the 3rd and 4th pic of the Royal queen super kush. Im growing these DWC with massive air flow and stones. Doubt its overwatering.


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## DaLeftHandMan (Jan 10, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> One only has to grow out a pure sativa indoors to quickly lose their fear when it comes to topping a plant LOL.
> 
> Appreciate the kind words riddleme, and Happy New Year.
> 
> ...


lol! i can imagine! ^_^ o and another rep for you UB! the 3 plants i topped came out with 4, 5, and the last one has 6 apparent main colas itll be growing out..no wonder its growth was so condensed and odd looking! UB da man! lol


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## SmokeyMc74 (Jan 10, 2011)

so let me get this straight i have read the first 18 pages but want some reassurement so basically when they have 5 or 6 nodes you go above the second node and cut? for the 4 colas and the second node is basically above the second growth of the jaggy leaves right UB thanksso mush and your thread is awesome


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## wake.n.bake (Jan 10, 2011)

I used Uncle Ben's topping technique on my 6 Jack Herer plants last night


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## Alganj (Jan 11, 2011)

HEy wakenbake,

Are you using 6" diameter PVC piping for your DWC containers????? good thinking if you are.

Have you ever used these to grow in the way you are using them?

I would think those tubes are too small to permit large growth of your plants??????? pretty cool though


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 11, 2011)

While browsing for another thread, found this photo from 2002. This is a great photo of the cut and the output. The cotyledons are still green and attached front and back of the trunk below the first node.


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## IloveGanjaherbmaryjane420 (Jan 11, 2011)

The cotyledons <= wat r those


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## Danielsgb (Jan 11, 2011)

IloveGanjaherbmaryjane420 said:


> The cotyledons <= wat r those


You should look it up. 5 seconds on google.


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## convict156326 (Jan 11, 2011)

hey U>B me again how old is too old to topp? remember when earlier i said i was gonna show sbs? screw that, tired of having one plant 12 inches taller than the rest, dont want to move the light just cause of that. the plant is about 4 weeks old about 11 distinct internodes not counting the new growth at the top.can i still chop it at the second this late in the game? or would i cause more damage than good?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 12, 2011)

convict156326 said:


> hey U>B me again how old is too old to topp? remember when earlier i said i was gonna show sbs? screw that, tired of having one plant 12 inches taller than the rest, dont want to move the light just cause of that. the plant is about 4 weeks old about 11 distinct internodes not counting the new growth at the top.can i still chop it at the second this late in the game? or would i cause more damage than good?


More damage than good.


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## Grow'N'Smoke (Jan 12, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> More damage than good.


UB, given the same situation, what are you thoughts on topping higher up on the plant?

- Grow'N'Smoke


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## wake.n.bake (Jan 12, 2011)

Alganj said:


> HEy wakenbake,
> 
> Are you using 6" diameter PVC piping for your DWC containers????? good thinking if you are.
> 
> ...


Hi Algani,

Not made of PVC piping, they're part of a complete system called a hydroheart. Each DWC is 10" tall & 4" in diameter. Do you think these are too small for normal growing or just Uncle Ben's method or both?

All 6 plants are now showing 4 colas & are experiencing explosive growth  (your comment does concern me though as the plants still have a long way to go)

Thank you for being concerned + rep for you


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## convict156326 (Jan 13, 2011)

Grow'N'Smoke said:


> UB, given the same situation, what are you thoughts on topping higher up on the plant?
> 
> - Grow'N'Smoke


yes i was wondering the same. i just need this one labella to stop being a foot taller than the rest, im going to have to switch to 12/12 sooner than planned if i cant top her.


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## K21701 (Jan 13, 2011)

convict156326 said:


> yes i was wondering the same. i just need this one labella to stop being a foot taller than the rest, im going to have to switch to 12/12 sooner than planned if i cant top her.


Bend that bitch over and tie her down....problem solved....lol


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## convict156326 (Jan 13, 2011)

would be solved except that im goin from seed and have my tent overful, runnin out of room cause the one is 3 feet tall, everything else is on a milk crate and she still stands 8 inches taller, so when she flowers gonna be brushing my ceiling. i was going to tie her if im not able to top her some first.


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## K21701 (Jan 13, 2011)

convict156326 said:


> would be solved except that im goin from seed and have my tent overful, runnin out of room cause the one is 3 feet tall, everything else is on a milk crate and she still stands 8 inches taller, so when she flowers gonna be brushing my ceiling. i was going to tie her if im not able to top her some first.


 Doing a bit of LST will be a lot better for her than topping her at this late stage...Just tie her up near the to and gently bend her and tape the string to the side of the planter....room should not be a problem as she will not take up any more space.


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## convict156326 (Jan 13, 2011)

i have 3 plants lst'd right now from birth. i like topping better, but how do you lst a 3 foot tall plant? make an upside down J 
? and just keep wrapping her around?


----------



## K21701 (Jan 13, 2011)

convict156326 said:


> i have 3 plants lst'd right now from birth. i like topping better, but how do you lst a 3 foot tall plant? make an upside down J
> ? and just keep wrapping her around?


Yes but it doesn't even have to bend over that far...gently pull her enough to make almost a 90 degree angle...this should even her out with the rest of them.


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## by the dashboard light (Jan 14, 2011)

UB I have enjoyed reading *all* the posts and will be following your instructions. I am getting ready to do my first grow since 1974 and was looking for suggestions. 

I have a 4'W X 2'D X 8'H grow space. The walls have an experimental white paint. I will be using a 400W digital, vented hood, MH for veg then switch to HPS for flower. The space will be vented well. 

Back in 74' I was given 5 plants that had been started from bag seed and I read a book that mentioned pinching so I tried it and just kept pinching every 10 days or so. 1 of the plants ended up so large around that it took 2 people to put our arms around it. At the time all I did was dig dirt and fill black 5 gal. buckets when I transplanted them and foliar fed with MG. I grew them outdoors on a flat black roof and would only water them when the leaves wilted from lack of moisture. Unfortunately 3 of them, the best ones, were stolen about 2 weeks before harvest so I never got to try those. The ones I harvested were some of the best I ever tried and the only thing I remember from the high was that you were as high 3 hours after smoking as you were when you started, but I digress. 

My main question is how many plants in 5 Gal. buckets would you recommend for my space knowing I will be pinching, and if I were to buy seed what would be a good strain to try. Any other recommendations / suggestions will be greatly appreciated from UB or anyone else.
If this question is in the wrong place let me know and I will move it.

Thanks,
by the dashboard light


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 15, 2011)

by the dashboard light said:


> UB I have enjoyed reading *all* the posts and will be following your instructions. I am getting ready to do my first grow since 1974 and was looking for suggestions.
> 
> I have a 4'W X 2'D X 8'H grow space. The walls have an experimental white paint. I will be using a 400W digital, vented hood, MH for veg then switch to HPS for flower. The space will be vented well.
> 
> Back in 74' I was given 5 plants that had been started from bag seed and I read a book that mentioned pinching so I tried it and just kept pinching every 10 days or so. 1 of the plants ended up so large around that it took 2 people to put our arms around it.


Nice!



> My main question is how many plants in 5 Gal. buckets would you recommend for my space knowing I will be pinching, and if I were to buy seed what would be a good strain to try. Any other recommendations / suggestions will be greatly appreciated from UB or anyone else.
> If this question is in the wrong place let me know and I will move it.
> 
> Thanks,
> by the dashboard light


Yeah, I wish folks would stick to the topic at hand, but I'm also not totally anal about it. Having said that, I used to CRAM plants into a small space. With good quality side reflecting panels, and mobile ones at that, you can probably fit 4 bush type plants in that space. This thread will give you a feel of my typical indoor garden, garden's footprint, etc. : https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html

Good luck


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## s8045488 (Jan 15, 2011)

What about using pure green tea in watering the plants?


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## luciferateme (Jan 15, 2011)

+rep uncle ben, i followed some other fellows thread and made a topping cut at the third node but the nodes underneath started growing like crazy and the new branches where i cut just seemed to stall. so i made the cut at the second node and the rate of growth is mad. i would not have done this before reading your thread as most say cut at the third or fourth node, thanks to your sound advice i now have a good understanding of how to top the plants correctly in future.
cheers
lu


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## Michael Sparks (Jan 15, 2011)

K21701 said:


> Bend that bitch over and tie her down....problem solved....lol


That will do the trick!


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## Michael Sparks (Jan 15, 2011)

So i have a new plant and was concerning pinching and LST but can i top and LST w/o causing too much energy consumption to the plant ? if someone already posted can i get some direction to that post/thread thanks in advance guys


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## K21701 (Jan 16, 2011)

Michael Sparks said:


> So i have a new plant and was concerning pinching and LST but can i top and LST w/o causing too much energy consumption to the plant ? if someone already posted can i get some direction to that post/thread thanks in advance guys


This is my girl, topped and LST'd....works great!! Keeps them low and bushy!


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## luciferateme (Jan 16, 2011)

guys i topped my plant and in the last day the growth has really accelerated, the one thing though is one of the branches from node one has grown very quick and two of the leaves are kind of glued together, there is one one spine and two leaves growing from it, should i just snip this off or just leave it alone,, any advice greatly appreciated
cheers
lu


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## Michael Sparks (Jan 16, 2011)

K21701 
Great! thanks a lot for the info and pic's your girls look great btw


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## luciferateme (Jan 16, 2011)

not because it ugly anyway lol! its just because of where it is, how can i put this. its the main branch on the new growth, middle of the y. so the leaves cant go either side like they should so i dont know if it will stop this part of the plant from growing, its the main point of one of the new kolas. sorry for explaining it that way but i hope you get what i was saying.
lu


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## Michael Sparks (Jan 16, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> I really think you should start at the beginning and read 20 to 30 pages Googleing terms you don't know. I'm not trying to be a dick, really. This question is asked even a ways back. I think, I answered it before too . Why did I say wait for 5 or 6 nodes?
> Daniels


why did you say wait for 5-6 nodes ?


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## Alganj (Jan 16, 2011)

I FIMMd my Royal Queen Super Kush. I went from 1 main top, to 8 MAIN TOps. This is AWESOME!!!!!!

I have no idea what happened, but I now have 8 fresh new tops coming in nicely.. Thanks UB


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## Danielsgb (Jan 16, 2011)

Michael Sparks said:


> why did you say wait for 5-6 nodes ?


This was my post directly before the one you posted.
The plant needs to be healthy and have a solid root system so the reaction is faster.
Daniels


Danielsgb said:


> I top my clones every time now. Clone like normal. *They need to get a root system going.* If you wait for the clone to get 5 or 6 nodes, then top you should be OK. The perfect 4 main colas doesn't always work, but clones have alternating nodes a lot. For me anyway, they do.
> Daniels


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## Michael Sparks (Jan 16, 2011)

so I have great roots and and just started doing LST should i wait for the tip to peak up before topping ?


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## Kali Soul (Jan 16, 2011)

Fim baby!!!


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## K21701 (Jan 17, 2011)

Michael Sparks said:


> so I have great roots and and just started doing LST should i wait for the tip to peak up before topping ?


I topped first then started my LST. Wait until she has 5-6 nodes and then top right above her second node. This should get you 2-4 main colas. When that growth starts making a move then you can start LSTing.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 17, 2011)

Alganj said:


> I have no idea what happened, but I now have 8 fresh new tops coming in nicely.. Thanks UB


Uhhhhhhhh, you're welcome but inducing 8 tops and LST is not what this thread is about.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 17, 2011)

Michael Sparks said:


> so I have great roots and and just started doing LST should i wait for the tip to peak up before topping ?


BEFORE POSTING, do us the courtesy of at least reading the first page and take your LST questions and concerns to that thread in this forum.

Thanks,
UB


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## Rimmer (Jan 17, 2011)

Your A Ledgend, Toped Both My Plants Today For 4 Tops, Hopfully Get Some Big Juicy Colas haha Thanks Alot.


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## Michael Sparks (Jan 17, 2011)

thanks! or yeah i got what you mean now, didn't realize i was replying right after you (high times)


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## clwhsr (Jan 19, 2011)

maybe i missed it but can you top after harvest?


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## Danielsgb (Jan 19, 2011)

clwhsr said:


> maybe i missed it but can you top after harvest?


Did you read the first page? Come on man. Nice first post.


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## Barrelhse (Jan 19, 2011)

Jillybean , topped after 2nd true node. It was at day 30 from seed, 5-6 nodes.


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## clwhsr (Jan 19, 2011)

after that great welcome i feel the need to explain q. the plants in pics when topped had no buds. was wondering if there was a cut off point when topping can no longer be done. which i did not see an answer for so i ask "is there a point when you cant/shouldnt top a plant?" sorry im a noob....but werent we all?


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## JackBaneNapier (Jan 19, 2011)

Kingb420 said:


> + rep, i cut mine @ the 4th true node, to get 2 tops but 4....damn


i have got a plant in flower now with four bug'uns and 4 big yet smaller tops and i got one in veg that will have 6 - 7 its still small for my standerds anyway its 2 months into veg gonna go 5 and thats only after one topping cut once most people top it 4 - 5 times to get 5-10 tops


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## JackBaneNapier (Jan 19, 2011)

clwhsr said:


> after that great welcome i feel the need to explain q. the plants in pics when topped had no buds. was wondering if there was a cut off point when topping can no longer be done. which i did not see an answer for so i ask "is there a point when you cant/shouldnt top a plant?" sorry im a noob....but werent we all?


there is not! im mean you shouldent do it to far into flower is the best way to explain the point of topping is so it spits in two < -> as long as it is still growing (veg or flower) it will make two tops but while you still can its not a good idea to top 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8.ect int flower then your just cuttin off buds it will still top but whats really the point that far into flower and so close to the end of its life! but to answer your Q" "NO" & "YES"


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## clwhsr (Jan 20, 2011)

was considering re-veg and if topping was still viable


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## s8045488 (Jan 20, 2011)

im choppedddddddddd


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## convict156326 (Jan 20, 2011)

hey i asked about topping a few pages back. i topped 1 labella strawberry and lst'd the other, to see the difference, heres pics from today, same age. both on day 3 flower, View attachment 1393440View attachment 1393441View attachment 1393442View attachment 1393443


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## frogster (Jan 20, 2011)

Damn , that a classic.. "can I top after harvest" that will end up on someones sig. for sure.... Topping after harvest would be called harvesting....


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## Crizzo (Jan 20, 2011)

Hi all, UB, they say the only dumb ? is the one unasked and I hate to sound like the noob I am but what exactly is a "node"? Do i count them from bottom to top? Top to bottom? I've been lurking for a while now, waiting, planning...I'm about to take my first steps so i just wanted to get this clear for my sake...


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## frogster (Jan 20, 2011)

A node is a division , a growth that grows from the main shoot, where a new growth is forming out... Google it,,, Google has spent over a billion dollars with a great search engine.. damn, here you go,, easy search on google. plant node!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_stem


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## Crizzo (Jan 21, 2011)

Thanks for the "smart-ass" answer but if ur going to b an ass don't just half ass it, answer the whole ?. Where do i start counting nodes....From top to bottom or bottom to top...


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## convict156326 (Jan 21, 2011)

Thanks for the "smart-ass" answer but if ur going to b an ass don't just half ass it, answer the whole ?. Where do i start counting nodes....From top to bottom or bottom to top...[/QUOTE]

go from the little round leaves, cotlydens, they dont count. go up to first set of leaves, theats 1 switch to other side of stalk a little higher up thats 2., found my pics hope this helps man


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## lbezphil2005 (Jan 22, 2011)

Jesus!! Talk about having to hold somebodys hand!! What, you want him to do the work for you too? Come on, man, do your own research, all the info is here, you just have to READ!!!!!!!!!


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## convict156326 (Jan 22, 2011)

lbezphil2005 said:


> Jesus!! Talk about having to hold somebodys hand!! What, you want him to do the work for you too? Come on, man, do your own research, all the info is here, you just have to READ!!!!!!!!!


man if he wanted attitude he'd have gone to another site. wouldnt it have been easier to just answer the question? regardless of how many times its been asked? unsubscribe to poosts if your tired of the questions man. does trying to rag on this guy for trying to learn something new make you feel better about yourself? some of the people on this site are total douchebags. not all of us know this shit. its very very nerve racking.
so yeah i dont mind ill point you in the right direction.


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## Crizzo (Jan 22, 2011)

Ok Ima Noob I know this....And u don't have to hold my hand....i've actually done the research shit for brains and there nothing on here or GC about counting nodes or where to start...People like u should self medicate before getting on RIU cause u have issues....i aked for a answer to my ? not a arrogantly pompus attitude. Don't make urself seems like a prick, ur prob a cool guy/girl. Next time u see a post and ur not answer do us all a FAVOR n SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!


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## Crizzo (Jan 22, 2011)

convict156326 said:


> man if he wanted attitude he'd have gone to another site. wouldnt it have been easier to just answer the question? regardless of how many times its been asked? unsubscribe to poosts if your tired of the questions man. does trying to rag on this guy for trying to learn something new make you feel better about yourself? some of the people on this site are total douchebags. not all of us know this shit. its very very nerve racking.
> so yeah i dont mind ill point you in the right direction.[/QUOTE
> 
> Thanks Convict... idk how to +rep but when i do u got some coming...To all yes I am learning and thanks to the people that helped out...i haven't been able to enjoy bud for the last 7 years due to legal troubles, but I've been recently cleared from all that and im getting ready to grow my own goodies...Really I came home from The Department of Corrections about 2 months ago, bought some shit they called "weed" but it was more like nicely compacted sage or something...so I'm going to refrain from smoking for another 3-6 months and grow my own...My first grow ever...Anything! Thats y the noob ?s...I just don't want to fuck up!! Any and all help will be greatly appreciated...I'll b starting a journal in a couple guys if anyone is interested!


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## Longtimetoker (Jan 22, 2011)

I think this link will tell you what you want to know --- https://www.rollitup.org/attachments/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/334052d1235347033-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get-diagram1.jpg
It's on page 21 of this thread.


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## Barrelhse (Jan 22, 2011)

Longtimetoker said:


> I think this link will tell you what you want to know --- https://www.rollitup.org/attachments/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/334052d1235347033-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get-diagram1.jpg
> It's on page 21 of this thread.


That makes it clear! (Glad I got right) My Jillybean was topped at 2nd node 6 days ago, showing lush new growth. Pics when I get more damn batteries.


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## jjp53 (Jan 23, 2011)

jjp53 said:


> Hey Tio, I was just wondering what would happen if you topped every branch that came out of the plant?






Uncle Ben said:


> The cause-effect of topping.


Is it advisable to do or is 4 colas the most you want to do on a plant?


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## 1oldgoat (Jan 23, 2011)

jjp53 said:


> Is it advisable to do or is 4 colas the most you want to do on a plant?


Your answer was in the link above. It's not advisable unless you're trying to FIM or the like. Here's that link again.


https://www.rollitup.org/attachments/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/334052d1235347033-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get-diagram1.jpg


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## Reclipse (Jan 23, 2011)

Ok I read through about 85 pages and kinda got sick of people asking the same damn questions. I will continue to read through all 311 pages sooner than later as I do appreciate UB and b2k's comments as well as some of the additional folk who have stuck their head in here asking legit questions. I hope my questions will help bring about additional info that I hadn't come across yet. If it's covered in the additional 230 pages I haven't ready, my apologies. 

My current run is a 12 gallon ebb flow bucket system which I'm redesigning prior to the next run as the 5 gallon pots aren't really doing what I had hoped. I'm just going into week 5 of 12/12 and the vertical growth hasn't been significant. I have 7 Chem Valley Kush (Chemdog x SFV OGK 3), 3 Durban 12 (durban skunk x romulan) and 2 romulan. I had the clones from a very young age and got them pretty quickly after my first run ever so they had about 8-9 weeks of veg time.. some longer. I think they mostly reached their capacity for height based on the stretch i've seen. I may have also limited this due to having 16 plants in a 3x3 veg tray in rockwool cubes. 

I originally had 5-6 Kandy Kush (OGK x TW) but they got way too leggy in veg. My roommate got them as 'teens' and they were already pretty large and they stretched like crazy. They also were very purple stemmed from early on which I know is normally a N deficiency. I think the genetics require high N through the veg for the stretch and they just weren't getting enough as they got larger. Knowing this, I do hope I can get these cuts again as I feel they would be great candidates for your 4 cola topping technique due to the stretch and also seeing the yield of some folks here on this site. Definitely will need a much shorter veg time but that's already known to me.

The Kandy Kush is a I/S hybrid that shows a lot of the sativa side in relation to stretch/etc. Do you have much experience with the hybrids or do you stick to straight sativas? Any additional experience in this cropping style with straight indicas and if so have you come across any indicas with the leggy aspects seen in sativas that are NOT hybrids. Do these leggier indicas respond well to the topping technique? 

I'm about 4 weeks out from my harvest which puts me at about 5-6 weeks away from dropping a new set of girls into the room with the revised bucket system (3.5 gallon buckets w/ 10" mesh bottom or/full mesh sides - 24 total sites). On my first harvest we took a few days to cut the tops and leave the bottom buds to fatten up a bit. I intend to do this with my current run of 12 girls as well and will be watching the trichromes patiently to optimize my potency of the finished product. 

I'm trying to pick up the clones this week (getting 30-36 to allow for topping and the ability to pick the 24 healthiest, happiest, and most evenly grown babies to move into flower) to begin the process. 

I am currently on my 2nd grow ever and with the results the first and the current state of the 2nd many have told me that I'm well ahead of the curve where most n00bs are. I base this on spending a lot of time reading forums and also trying to learn more about basic botany and horticulture as well. The mechanisms of how plants work is extremely interesting and has caught my attention very directly. I appreciate the time spent explaining the topic of auxins and plant hormones as this solidifies the information I've recently just sunk my teeth into. 

To UB, B2KS, Mehroon, and all of the others that have added positive contributions and formed a fantastic discussion in this thread I thank you. To those of you who have no concept of reading comprehension or even visual (picture) comprehension I feel for you and you should know that there are educational programs that will help you to overcome these obstacles.... although they wont help to beat some simple sense into your head so you stop asking the same questions over and over and over again but phrased ever so slightly different. 

I will make it a point to add pics when I get started on this technique for the new cycle. Hopefully my contributions can help others the way other contributions to this thread have helped me.

Cheers!


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 23, 2011)

*Reclipse*, welcome to the thread.

Indica or sativa, they will respond the same way - your call. Being that I had/have an infatuation with sativas grown indoors, namely "pure" sativas like Zamal, Vietnamese, Mexican, Flying Dutchmen's Original Haze, etc..... I decided to try to train my sativas in to a shorter stature. That's when I came up with the 4 cola drill. Sometimes it works for one's garden, sometimes it doesn't. For example, my Dalat Viet did the 4 cola profile fine, but it just kept on growing necessitating topping about 6 times, even during flowering. It's an issue of internode length. You do what you have to do.

UB


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## BloodHoundsRule (Jan 24, 2011)

Have a question for you UB. I'm a single plant grower and I just finished up with a Black Jack grow and the plant never did produce a cola on it. More or less just an even canopy with what I would call a terminal bud that stayed the same height through the flowering and harvest time. I did take a clone off it a few days before I switched to 12/12 to keep as a mother plant. Took a clone off of the mother and its in a bubble cloner now waiting to root for my next grow. Would this topping method increase the chance of a better main cola? Thinking of topping the clone once its ready for two colas. Or should I just germinate another bean in hopes of getting a better plant? Here is a picture of the top of the plant the day I switched to 12/12. It pretty much stayed the same except for a clump of buds on it at the end.


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## riddleme (Jan 24, 2011)

BloodHoundsRule said:


> View attachment 1399642Have a question for you UB. I'm a single plant grower and I just finished up with a Black Jack grow and the plant never did produce a cola on it. More or less just an even canopy with what I would call a terminal bud that stayed the same height through the flowering and harvest time. I did take a clone off it a few days before I switched to 12/12 to keep as a mother plant. Took a clone off of the mother and its in a bubble cloner now waiting to root for my next grow. Would this topping method increase the chance of a better main cola? Thinking of topping the clone once its ready for two colas. Or should I just germinate another bean in hopes of getting a better plant? Here is a picture of the top of the plant the day I switched to 12/12. It pretty much stayed the same except for a clump of buds on it at the end.


What light are you using???


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## 1oldgoat (Jan 24, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> *Reclipse*, welcome to the thread.
> 
> Indica or sativa, they will respond the same way - your call. Being that I had/have an infatuation with sativas grown indoors, namely "pure" sativas like Zamal, Vietnamese, Mexican, Flying Dutchmen's Original Haze, etc..... I decided to try to train my sativas in to a shorter stature. That's when I came up with the 4 cola drill. Sometimes it works for one's garden, sometimes it doesn't. For example, my Dalat Viet did the 4 cola profile fine, but it just kept on growing necessitating topping about 6 times, even during flowering. It's an issue of internode length. You do what you have to do.
> 
> UB


UB.While reading about gardening myths, I stumbled upon some research on how to make a plant shorter and still retain proper flower size. Have a read and let us know if you've heard about this.

*Pickling your Paperwhites - Using Alcohol to Reduce Growth of Paperwhite Narcissus*​ ​ William B. Miller
Professor of Horticulture
Director of the Flowerbulb Research Program
Cornell University


The paperwhite narcissus is a popular bulb for indoor forcing in the winter months. Unlike most other daffodils, paperwhites (_Narcissus tazetta)_ do not require a cold period. They are simply planted in pots with soil, or even more commonly, in dishes or bowls with gravel, marbles or other decorative material. With a little water, they rapidly form roots, grow leaves and shoots. The white, fragrant flowers usually open up within 2-3 weeks of planting. 

A common problem with paperwhites, however, is that they often grow too tall and flop over. 

Recent research conducted by the Flowerbulb Research Program at Cornell University has found a simple and effective way to reduce stem and leaf growth of paperwhites. The "secret" is using dilute solutions of alcohol. Properly used, the result is paperwhites that are 1/3 to 1/2 shorter, with equal sized flowers that last as long as normal. 

*What to do*
We suggest planting your paperwhite bulbs in stones, gravel, marbles, glass beads, etc. as usual. Add water as you normally would, then wait about 1 week until roots are growing, and the shoot is green and growing about 1-2" above the top of the bulb. At this point, pour off the water and replace it with a solution of 4 to 6% alcohol, made from just about any "hard" liquor. You can do the calculations to figure the dilution, but, as an example, to get a 5% solution from a 40% distilled spirit (e.g., gin, vodka, whiskey, rum, tequila), you add 1 part of the booze to 7 parts of water. This is an 8-fold dilution yielding 5% alcohol. 

Then, simply use this solution, instead of water, for further irrigation (watering) of your bulbs. It's as simple as that. The result will be a plant that is 1/3 shorter, but with flowers just as large, fragrant, and long-lasting as usual. But, the plant will be nicely proportioned and won't need support stakes, wires, or other gizmos to keep it upright. You will see results within just a few days. You can have some fun by doing a simple experiment having one bowl of bulbs given normal water and the other given the alcohol. You will see a dramatic difference, as shown in the picture. This could be a neat activity to occupy kids during the upcoming holiday season!

*A few other thoughts*


Do not use beer or wine, as the sugars in them will cause major problems with the plants
As with humans, paperwhites can also suffer alcohol overdoses! We suggest 4-6% alcohol as a normal and safe range. If plants are given much more than 10% alcohol, growth problems will start, and 25% alcohol is dramatically toxic. So, moderation is the key!
It is not strictly necessary pour off the water after the plants are rooted (as we suggest above). You can just as well add your 5% alcohol without pouring the water off. The result, though, will be a lower than optimal alcohol concentration around the roots, and, ultimately, growth will not be reduced as much as you expect. The reason to pour off the water is to simply maximize the alcohol level around the roots.
Basically, the higher the alcohol concentration (within reason), the shorter the plants. So it is not critical whether you use 4, 5, or 6% alcohol. Just stay well below 10%, where growth problems become noticeable.
If you do not have alcohol for consumption in your household, rubbing alcohol (isopropyl alcohol) works just as well. Since this is usually 70% alcohol when purchased, a dilution of 1 part rubbing alcohol to 10 or 11 parts water is appropriate.
Why does this happen? We are currently working on this, but we feel it is simply "water stress", where the alcohol makes it more difficult for the plant to absorb water. The plant suffers a slight lack of water, enough to reduce leaf and stem growth, but not enough to affect flower size or flower longevity. 
I thank Erin Finan (Cornell '05, horticulture undergrad) who worked on this as a senior project, and to Leslie Land of the New York Times who first posed the question "Does gin affect paperwhites?" to me in early 2005. Jan Doornbosch of International Bulb Co. in New Jersey graciously supplied bulbs, and Group 1 of the Royal Dutch Wholesalers' Association for Flowerbulbs and Nursery Stock, Hillegom, The Netherlands, provided financial support for this work.
 





​ 

The effect of alcohol on growth of 'Ziva' paperwhite narcissus. Left: Untreated plant, growing in pebbles with water. Right: Plant in pebbles, grown with 5% alcohol instead of water.


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## The45King (Jan 24, 2011)

Thanks ub great thread


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## Barrelhse (Jan 24, 2011)

Pics of Jillybean from seed. Topped after 2nd true node at 30 days veg.- First 2 pics are from 6 days ago when it was topped, last 4 are from today.


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## BloodHoundsRule (Jan 24, 2011)

riddleme said:


> What light are you using???


 Used a LED to veg then switched to HPS for flower.


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## Grow'N'Smoke (Jan 24, 2011)

1oldgoat said:


> UB.While reading about gardening myths, I stumbled upon some research on how to make a plant shorter and still retain proper flower size. Have a read and let us know if you've heard about this.
> 
> *Pickling your Paperwhites - Using Alcohol to Reduce Growth of Paperwhite Narcissus*​


I have used rubbing alcohol in a hydro system, only a 1:100 ration alcohol to water, for the purpose of reducing bacterial growth (It seems to work quite effectively). I will be taking clones very soon and you can bet that one or two of them will be getting a little drunk after they root to see if this works.

-GNS


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2011)

1oldgoat said:


> UB.While reading about gardening myths, I stumbled upon some research on how to make a plant shorter and still retain proper flower size. Have a read and let us know if you've heard about this.


Never heard of it.



The45King said:


> Thanks ub great thread


Welcome, glad you enjoy it.



Barrelhse said:


> Pics of Jillybean from seed. Topped after 2nd true node at 30 days veg.- First 2 pics are from 6 days ago when it was topped, last 4 are from today.


Looking good, but looks like they need more N. Such a small size after 30 days veg suggests the same.

Good luck,
UB


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## 1oldgoat (Jan 25, 2011)

Barrelhse said:


> Pics of Jillybean from seed. Topped after 2nd true node at 30 days veg.- First 2 pics are from 6 days ago when it was topped, last 4 are from today.


Those are great pics. They should be posted in UB's Topping Technique post. They will put to bed that age old question, "where do I cut to get 4 cola's?".


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## 1oldgoat (Jan 25, 2011)

Grow'N'Smoke said:


> I have used rubbing alcohol in a hydro system, only a 1:100 ration alcohol to water, for the purpose of reducing bacterial growth (It seems to work quite effectively). I will be taking clones very soon and you can bet that one or two of them will be getting a little drunk after they root to see if this works.
> 
> -GNS


Maybe I'll start another thread about it.


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## frogster (Jan 25, 2011)

Crizzo , I dont like posting this crap on someones thread, but this thread topic is fully understandable, compliments of U.B.. and way too many people ask questions without regard to others time, im wasting mine just telling you this... ie. research a little before you ask a question!... Dont be a lazy person... I wasnt that much of a smart ass... I answered the question and provided a link.... the part of the question concerning up or down is obvious if you learn what a node is: as 1 comes before 2..plants still grow from the ground up unless your using one of those ignorant topsy turvy's.. Google "numbers " heres the link for you if you cant count..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number. I will even post a link for google if you dont know how to google google.. http://www.google.com/ there you happy?, you have now received an official real smart-ass comment..... please pm me for further banter... As I dont wish to banter on UB's thread... I just wanted to express to lazy worthless noobs to not be so lazy and research little... I just reviewed all of my post and found very few noob questions (2) .. . hell Im still a noob,,,,...


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## PUKKA BUD (Jan 26, 2011)

Errr what do you achieve from graftin a plant?


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## lbezphil2005 (Jan 26, 2011)

clwhsr said:


> after that great welcome i feel the need to explain q. the plants in pics when topped had no buds. was wondering if there was a cut off point when topping can no longer be done. which i did not see an answer for so i ask "is there a point when you cant/shouldnt top a plant?" sorry im a noob....but werent we all?


Dude, that was to show what the plant looked like after it was harvested. Why would you want to top a plant that has already been harvested? Just asking


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## lbezphil2005 (Jan 26, 2011)

convict156326 said:


> man if he wanted attitude he'd have gone to another site. wouldnt it have been easier to just answer the question? regardless of how many times its been asked? unsubscribe to poosts if your tired of the questions man. does trying to rag on this guy for trying to learn something new make you feel better about yourself? some of the people on this site are total douchebags. not all of us know this shit. its very very nerve racking.
> so yeah i dont mind ill point you in the right direction.


The only attitude here is you jumping me for telling him to frigging read, bro. Have a nice day!


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## lbezphil2005 (Jan 26, 2011)

Crizzo said:


> Ok Ima Noob I know this....And u don't have to hold my hand....i've actually done the research shit for brains and there nothing on here or GC about counting nodes or where to start...People like u should self medicate before getting on RIU cause u have issues....i aked for a answer to my ? not a arrogantly pompus attitude. Don't make urself seems like a prick, ur prob a cool guy/girl. Next time u see a post and ur not answer do us all a FAVOR n SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!


 F*^&^ y(*& bro! if you weren't such an ass with your questions before I wouldn't have said anything, numbnuts!!! and for all you coming to defend jr. here save your breath, like I said if he would have come across any other way than being an ASS I wouldn't have said a thing. the only one with an attitude is you for not having your questions answered to your liking!


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## frogster (Jan 26, 2011)

Im in agreement with you IBEZ... +rep The noobs have been quiet, perhaps they started reading and using Google since my last post.. A Miracle!.... But *clwhsr had a legitimate question, just wasn't worded correctly.. It was answered a few post later,,, and clwhsr was very Humble&respectful , even after we laughed at him a bit... Thats the way to be ... +rep clwhsr welcome to the forum... This thread should have been closed 3112 post ago... I keep saying it, U.B did a fine job, no need for any questions if you read the post a few times,, like I did... 
*


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 26, 2011)

Settle down boyz LOL.

Any bets when this thread is gonna hit 300,000 views? I say by July 4th!


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## shagster (Jan 26, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Settle down boyz LOL.
> 
> Any bets when this thread is gonna hit 300,000 views? I say by July 4th!


yes but how many nods is that ? And where do you start counting views ?


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## Dr Gruber (Jan 26, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Settle down boyz LOL.
> 
> Any bets when this thread is gonna hit 300,000 views? I say by July 4th!



I'd bet by April 1st. What are we betting?


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## Danielsgb (Jan 26, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Settle down boyz LOL.
> 
> Any bets when this thread is gonna hit 300,000 views? I say by July 4th!


I say before 4/20, which hopefully won't be the clusterfuck it was last year.
What are we betting? One bean from the UB Vault?
Daniels


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## Earths Widdler (Jan 27, 2011)

Well I got to page 11 haha. Would love to read it all but i dont have enough green to get 313 pages down in one sitting! Anywho I started to follow UB links to different spots and storys. I like your work. Keep it coming man. I cant wait to try this technique now  Thanks


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> I say before 4/20, which hopefully won't be the clusterfuck it was last year.
> What are we betting? One bean from the UB Vault?
> Daniels


Works for me!


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## Life Goes On (Jan 28, 2011)

Well if there is a bean on the line from UB's vault then I would have to guess by the 13th of April!


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## The45King (Jan 30, 2011)

Im goin for 31st march


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## ddimebag (Jan 31, 2011)

Im guessing 20th of April


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## lbezphil2005 (Jan 31, 2011)

shagster said:


> yes but how many nods is that ? And where do you start counting views ?


 
Bro!! I frigging love that avatar!!! frigging hilarious!!!


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## bigbud87 (Jan 31, 2011)

Hi looking to top my plant but i am just wondering if im to late? BTW im a complete noob and this has probably been asked a million times, but my plant looks a hell of alot bigger than any of the rest iv seen topped its about a foot and half tall and just started its 7th week from seed can i still top it? Iv attached a pic of where i think it should be cut am i correct again sorry for asking again but i jus want to be 100% sure im doin it correct.
Thanks. 
Also im going to start flowering it in about three or four days does this make a difference??


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## Danielsgb (Jan 31, 2011)

I think you missed the boat this time. You're right on the spot to cut, but if you do then you would veg longer. I am assuming you are well past the 5-6 nodes. Seems like a massive topping to me. Just my opinion so hope that helps. BTW This was answered again a ways back.
Daniels


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## bigbud87 (Jan 31, 2011)

Theres between 5 and 7 nodes on each plant

Yea probably is answered but im only on page 20 and thats took about an hour lol!


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## Danielsgb (Jan 31, 2011)

Maybe it's not too late, but it will add veg time. If I needed to flip to 12/12 in 4 days then I definitely wouldn't. It's full in there so hard to tell from the full pic. Looked like more nodes taller to me.
Daniels


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## frogster (Jan 31, 2011)

Everything cool.. woohoo..


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## riddleme (Jan 31, 2011)

frogster said:


> Hello U.B, I am working on a project with the local University, approval for development was granted today. I am looking for a very experienced individual for Input&testing of a new lighting system like none other. If you could assist or recommend someone who can assist from RIU I would appreciate it, compensation for input&time will be available . I am looking for someone that is around the Denver&Colorado Springs area, but not mandatory. Preferably someone with vast experience with growth pattern and plant physiology. Thank you, K. Louis (aka, Frogster) Any recommends from other RIU members p.m me , Much appreciated...


Frogster, your PM inbox is full and I am interested


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 31, 2011)

frogster said:


> Hello U.B, I am working on a project with the local University, approval for development was granted today. I am looking for a very experienced individual for Input&testing of a new lighting system like none other. If you could assist or recommend someone who can assist from RIU I would appreciate it, compensation for input&time will be available . I am looking for someone that is around the Denver&Colorado Springs area, but not mandatory. Preferably someone with vast experience with growth pattern and plant physiology. Thank you, K. Louis (aka, Frogster) Any recommends from other RIU members p.m me , Much appreciated...


Looks like you got an interested party. Go RiddleMe!


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## riddleme (Jan 31, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Looks like you got an interested party. Go RiddleMe!


Thank you UB, didn't mean to jack your thread LOL

Been awhile, how the hell are ya?


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## thexception (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks UB for a GREAT thread, actually found you in another thread.
Cut these early today, did I make the right cut? Sure hope so!


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 31, 2011)

Looks like you did.

Good luck,
UB


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## thexception (Jan 31, 2011)

AWESOME, now I'm super stoked! Thanks again, for the thread, lighting quick reply, AND the luck


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## Danielsgb (Jan 31, 2011)

riddleme said:


> Frogster, your PM inbox is full and I am interested


I smell a vs. CMH coming.
Daniels


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## frogster (Jan 31, 2011)

Riddleme knows his shit,, awesome.......


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## Danielsgb (Jan 31, 2011)

Plasma is the best I've seen so far, so now I'm even more interested. I do detailed grow journals especially since I'm trying some breeding. PM me if I can help. I'm in MT and a Caregiver.
Daniels


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## Michael Sparks (Feb 1, 2011)

I got a lot of great info from this tread thanks to UB & Daniels I have about 6 or so colas now thanks to you guys


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## Reclipse (Feb 1, 2011)

shagster said:


> yes but how many nods is that ? And where do you start counting views ?




HAHAHAHAH well played


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## Uncle Mike (Feb 3, 2011)

Can anyone recommend a good nitrogen additive for use in a hydro rockwool grow? (In order to reveg clones for opposing nodes.)


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 3, 2011)

Uncle Mike said:


> Can anyone recommend a good nitrogen additive for use in a hydro rockwool grow? (In order to reveg clones for opposing nodes.)


You got the wrong thread.

sorry.....


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## Danielsgb (Feb 3, 2011)

615 views to go, I guess I should have said Valentine's Day instead of 4/20.





You'll hit 350k by then.





Daniels


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## jloudermilk (Feb 3, 2011)

hey uncle ben or anyone else, this technique looks awesome but is there a post in this thread that has more descriptive information on making the cut. For example, a pic or pictures of the plant before the cut is made?


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## BloodHoundsRule (Feb 4, 2011)

jloudermilk said:


> hey uncle ben or anyone else, this technique looks awesome but is there a post in this thread that has more descriptive information on making the cut. For example, a pic or pictures of the plant before the cut is made?


 Here you go. View attachment 1422210


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## 420Marine (Feb 4, 2011)

I don't know if this is a stupid question or not but here goes...if I super crop and SCROG under where I'm supposed too will that work the same way as topping or am I waaay off base..again sorry if it's a stupid question.


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## BrannonC (Feb 4, 2011)

Hi Uncle Ben!

I am sorry to bother you, but just a couple questions if you don't mind. If you don't respond i totally understand.

To the point:

I am a relatively new grower, and I do not feel as if i am maximizing my potential. I have a 1000W MH/HPS inside of a tent, and I really want to hone in my skills before i go any larger, which i plan to when i move. I am trying to figure out whether or not topping is my best option, i have yet to do so, but i do plan on trying my next grow.

I am sticking with Chocolope strain, as I love to smoke it and let's be honest it get's me extremely high. (Side note, i am a cancer patient with CA prop 215 license). I am just looking for some suggestions

My grow room is 5x5 with about 6 feet of clearence height wise, soon i will be moving into a room. 

This next round I would really like to try to topping technique you illustrated in your thread. Just a quick question, once i top, how high should i let the plant grow before switching to flowering? Also about how long do you think it will take for the plant to re-grow to an acceptable height at which point i would switch it to flower? Also How many plants do you think would be the best option to use under the 1000W?

Just a bit of help would be much appreciated.

Thanks Uncle Ben. Have a good one, and happy growing.


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## Life Goes On (Feb 5, 2011)

BrannonC said:


> Hi Uncle Ben!
> 
> I am sorry to bother you, but just a couple questions if you don't mind. If you don't respond i totally understand.
> 
> ...


I also have a 5X5 tent with a 600 MH/HPS I fit 9 plants in mine but it was a squeeze. I veged an extra month after using UB's topping technique although it is not neccessary. It just depends on how tall you want your plants to get. I still probably had a good 2 or 3 feet of space for my plants to grow by the time it was harvest time. Hope this helps.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 5, 2011)

BrannonC said:


> Hi Uncle Ben!
> 
> I am sorry to bother you, but just a couple questions if you don't mind. If you don't respond i totally understand.
> 
> ...


I don't have a crystal ball. Grow it out and get a feel for the next time around.


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## bcodyoz (Feb 7, 2011)

hey uncle ben, was just wondering what strain was topped in ur photo?. i have 2 big bud seeds dat i want to grow indoors, wud u have any idea if dis strain is good to top for yield?,


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## IloveGanjaherbmaryjane420 (Feb 7, 2011)

dunno if this was asked but can you do this to clones?


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## shmow52 (Feb 7, 2011)

IloveGanjaherbmaryjane420 said:


> dunno if this was asked but can you do this to clones?


 once they actually have growth.


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## Danielsgb (Feb 7, 2011)

IloveGanjaherbmaryjane420 said:


> dunno if this was asked but can you do this to clones?


Same as if it was a seed 4 to 6 nodes.


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## thexception (Feb 9, 2011)

Hi again UB, when u top how long do u leave in veg growth before flower? would that be strain dependant or simply putting into flower as u would have, had the topping not been done? TIA


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## frogster (Feb 9, 2011)

Strain dependant and depends on how high you want the final plant to be,,, ... every strain is different when it comes to stretch after the 12/12 flip.. so get a strain and experiment ,, the general rule is the plant will stretch 100% afetr the flip... but this is really , really general... Some alot more , some alot less... Find a grow journal that is similar to your grow conditions, area, amount of lighting and media used,,, read a few of these and you should get an idea of what you should do...


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## purplehazin (Feb 9, 2011)

Love topping, very easy to increase yield.


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## The Sweetest Tooth (Feb 10, 2011)

All they are saying is that it does not matter if you have a large plant or a small plant of the same species the time it takes to flower and and reach its desired maturity will remain the same.... grow it to 6 in or 6 ft does not change...
now by using improper procedures and practices you can delay the flowering cycle,, Light and heat can play a large factor with this


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## Pippy108 (Feb 12, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> *LINK-O-RAMA*
> 
> Word to the wise - buy a good grow book and check out some books from the library on plant culture, especially indoor growing. Grow some radishes, lettuce, and tomatoes before you jump into this hobby - you'll learn alot from that experience and will save yourself alot of grief. Alot of folks have never grown anything in their life (and that's OK), just don't set yourself up for failure. Best advice to ya - learn what makes a plant tick, and the rest will come easy.
> 
> ...


UB - This here link is dead : The following is a *MUST-READ* for the advanced MJ gardener:
MJ Optics - THC influence by UVB radiation
http://freewebhosting.hostdepartment.com/j/jknuc/


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 13, 2011)

Pippy108 said:


> UB - This here link is dead : The following is a *MUST-READ* for the advanced MJ gardener:
> MJ Optics - THC influence by UVB radiation
> http://freewebhosting.hostdepartment.com/j/jknuc/


Funny you retrieved that. I had the LOR as a pinned thread going at the now defunct OG, would update those links often. Lot's of good info there especially on lighting, but by now I'll bet most links are dead.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 13, 2011)

Hmmmmm, looks like some are OK, some of my favorites follow. While noobs are humming the popular forum mantra, "you can't give a plant too much light", such graphs dispel such myths. http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page26.html

http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page26.html


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 13, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> 615 views to go, I guess I should have said Valentine's Day instead of 4/20.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, crazy. We're well over 300K now.....


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## Akcannabisman (Feb 14, 2011)

Quick question- Im about to use your method of topping for 4 main colas but this is my first time growing, yet alone topping and am kind of nervous. I know I cut above the 2nd true node after 5-6 nodes, but is there anything more to it than than? Do I need to angle the cut at all or make the cut in any special location? 

Thanks-
Cannabisman


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2011)

Akcannabisman said:


> ...... I know I cut above the 2nd true node after 5-6 nodes, but is there anything more to it than than? Do I need to angle the cut at all or make the cut in any special location?


No and no, it's just that simple as the first page reflects.


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## The45King (Feb 14, 2011)

304 Thousand and still kickin well done ub this thread alone has learnt me many things Thanks again 
its half mil next haha


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## Sr. Greensea (Feb 14, 2011)

why would you cut the top off a perfectly good plant. you guys are all fucking crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahhahahahhahahahahahahah


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## Sr. Greensea (Feb 14, 2011)

seriously topping is for when you burn a plant and thats it girls. go back to grade school ub


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## Danielsgb (Feb 14, 2011)

Sr. Greensea said:


> why would you cut the top off a perfectly good plant. you guys are all fucking crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahhahahahhahahahahahahah


I know this seems confusing for a new guy.



Sr. Greensea said:


> seriously topping is for when you burn a plant and thats it girls. go back to grade school ub


You know this from years of growing Cannabis? 
Daniels


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## edro (Feb 14, 2011)

Sounds good to me, it's too late for what I've got now, but will sure give it a try next grow...thanks..


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## The45King (Feb 15, 2011)

Sr. Greensea said:


> seriously topping is for when you burn a plant and thats it girls. go back to grade school ub


Lots of gardeners top and shape plants not jst cannabis growers,it has many benefits you obviously havn't
got a clue what ya talkin about maybe you should grow a few vegetables for a while see what makes a plant tick.
WATCH YA DONT BURN EM


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## Illumination (Feb 15, 2011)

Sr. Greensea said:


> seriously topping is for when you burn a plant and thats it girls. go back to grade school ub


you mean join you in your adolescence? Sorry but we're busting nuts not zits....go play in the street kid

Namaste'


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## johndoe12345678 (Feb 15, 2011)

i can only grow 12plants legally and im vegging under 2k mh and flowering under 2k hps in 2 4x8 grow tents in 7gallon grow bags with soil and fox farm nutes. some one suggested i super crop to get more auxins to lower branches, would this defeat the whole purpose of ur technik???? or would this actually help produce more bud sites????


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## The45King (Feb 15, 2011)

johndoe12345678 said:


> i can only grow 12plants legally and im vegging under 2k mh and flowering under 2k hps in 2 4x8 grow tents in 7gallon grow bags with soil and fox farm nutes. some one suggested i super crop to get more auxins to lower branches, would this defeat the whole purpose of ur technik???? or would this actually help produce more bud sites????


You would get more bud sites but they'd be a lot smaller stick with what ya got


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## omri (Feb 15, 2011)

if your going to pinch to get colas, why not just keep bending the top over and grow it laterally to however long you want, genetics of course being considerd. this is what i do and i have taken as much as 3/4 of an lb off of one plant if i was a big grower i'd get a dual spectrum all encased in one bulb,sodium&halide and i could get sustantially more from one plant


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## Fuck Snails (Feb 16, 2011)

Illumination said:


> you mean join you in your adolescence? Sorry but we're busting nuts not zits....go play in the street kid
> 
> Namaste'


ahahhahaah funnyy


I tried this topping method last night, already today I see the growth taking place! Im too nervous to do it again to another plant tho hahahahah

Good shit uncle ben too bad they had to killl u in spiderman


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## bukeye420 (Feb 16, 2011)

this thread is great ive been reading for hours, i may have missed it but i didnt see the question ask. After using your technique how long should i veg before budding? im going to try it in a SOG so i would like to bud as soon as i can ( while still getting 4 colas) what's your advice


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## Grow'N'Smoke (Feb 16, 2011)

bukeye420 said:


> this thread is great ive been reading for hours, i may have missed it but i didnt see the question ask. After using your technique how long should i veg before budding? im going to try it in a SOG so i would like to bud as soon as i can ( while still getting 4 colas) what's your advice


I am sorry to hear about your poor reading skills, I have heard that Hooked On Phonics works wonders. If you would like to try again, I remember UB answering this question within the first 4 pages.

-GNS


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## fletchman (Feb 16, 2011)

Grow'N'Smoke said:


> I am sorry to hear about your poor reading skills, I have heard that Hooked On Phonics works wonders. If you would like to try again, I remember UB answering this question within the first 4 pages.
> 
> -GNS


I dont want to read 319 pages, is this fuckin thread for real?


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## riddleme (Feb 16, 2011)

fletchman said:


> I dont want to read 319 pages, is this fuckin thread for real?


I have read it 3 times, you should too  it's very real


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## fletchman (Feb 16, 2011)

riddleme said:


> I have read it 3 times, you should too  it's very real


Anyone with a fucking brain knows you can "Top" a plant, hell you can cut 3/4 off the fucker and it will still kick ass, you could run it over with a lawn mower and it will live. 

And Uncle Ben say Foliar Feeding doesn't work? Too funny.


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## wavey.mofo (Feb 17, 2011)

So if i top my plant and get 2 main colas, would i get double the yield?


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## Danielsgb (Feb 17, 2011)

fletchman said:


> Anyone with a fucking brain knows you can "Top" a plant, hell you can cut 3/4 off the fucker and it will still kick ass, you could run it over with a lawn mower and it will live.
> 
> And Uncle Ben say Foliar Feeding doesn't work? Too funny.


I think he says it's in-effective, but you sure seem to know a lot about gardening. Let me guess you think lolli-popping is great too, and flush for 2 weeks prior to harvest.



wavey.mofo said:


> So if i top my plant and get 2 main colas, would i get double the yield?


No, but I get more from a topped plant than un-topped. I wouldn't ever expect double.
Daniels


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## jloudermilk (Feb 17, 2011)

hey just need some confirmation before I make the cuts, my father's meds depend on it. Id appreciate anyone who can confirm the picture below is correct and that the black line is indeed where I make the cut on this plant. And as far as the cut goes, I just cut across horizontally?


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## riddleme (Feb 17, 2011)

jloudermilk said:


> hey just need some confirmation before I make the cuts, my father's meds depend on it. Id appreciate anyone who can confirm the picture below is correct and that the black line is indeed where I make the cut on this plant. And as far as the cut goes, I just cut across horizontally?
> 
> 
> View attachment 1446720


 
your black line is correct


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## jloudermilk (Feb 17, 2011)

thanks for the response


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## doug henderson (Feb 17, 2011)

*Can you top clones too once they are rooted ?*


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## The45King (Feb 18, 2011)

jloudermilk said:


> hey just need some confirmation before I make the cuts, my father's meds depend on it. Id appreciate anyone who can confirm the picture below is correct and that the black line is indeed where I make the cut on this plant. And as far as the cut goes, I just cut across horizontally?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cut here and i believe you will get 2 mains cut a node above to get 4 i believe the single leaf node you have isnt a true node


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## The45King (Feb 18, 2011)

Not a great pic but 4 on each


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## johndoe12345678 (Feb 18, 2011)

thank u uncle ben


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 18, 2011)

Good luck with that. 

This thread has been going on for months (if not a few years). Where's the finished product? I'd like to see the end result.


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## interstellar (Feb 18, 2011)

Hello all,

first let me say thank you to Uncle Ben for this thread, and for staying with it for so long!

I registered on this forum today because of it.

I have some questions regarding my plants before i proceed with your technique to get 4 colas Uncle Ben, and please forgive me if they have been answered elsewhere in the thread. 
Two pictures are attached in regards to my questions. In the first you can see the fan leaves just above the cotyledons have been cut off. Does that mean that the node marked "A" is now the first true node?

In the second picture the two nodes above the cotyledons have suffered the same fate. Where there used to be 4 fan leaves there are now none. As you can see there is still growth shooting up from the side from where the fan leaves used to be. Do I start counting from the section marked "A", or do the cut-off fan leaf sites still count as true nodes?

Thanks in advance and thanks for sharing your experience with the rest of us!

//Stellar


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## The45King (Feb 18, 2011)

interstellar said:


> Hello all,
> 
> first let me say thank you to Uncle Ben for this thread, and for staying with it for so long!
> 
> ...


answer to the first question is yes and the second pic you cut at node marked a i believe


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## The45King (Feb 18, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Good luck with that.
> 
> This thread has been going on for months (if not a few years). Where's the finished product? I'd like to see the end result.


I will put 1 up when mine are done,just the 1 though lol


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 19, 2011)

interstellar said:


> In the second picture the two nodes above the cotyledons have suffered the same fate. Where there used to be 4 fan leaves there are now none. As you can see there is still growth shooting up from the side from where the fan leaves used to be.


It's not about fan leaves, it's about nodes. I can't make it any more clearer than I did on page one. If you lost your leafsets at the node and you have output there, then those are your potential new "trunks" or main colas provided that you cut above the 2nd node.

Welcome to RIU,
UB


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## DaLeftHandMan (Feb 19, 2011)

lol! still cant find any term slower then laymens huh UB? just stoppin in to say your technique turned my 4 tops into 15! thanks! my one plant grew 6 tops! excellent!


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## interstellar (Feb 19, 2011)

Great, thank you!


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## HomeGrownHairy (Feb 19, 2011)

You dont want to top or fem then while they are in flower mode. Vegging is when you do that. You could still do some lst'ing.


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## beezkneez (Feb 19, 2011)

Ended up with 6 main colas. fucking awesome ><. Not a scrog method either. Strain is Ice x Power Africa


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 20, 2011)

beezkneez said:


> Ended up with 6 main colas. fucking awesome ><. Not a scrog method either. Strain is Ice x Power Africa


Cool. Gotta ask, what happened to the fan leaves?


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## Snafu1236 (Feb 20, 2011)

Hey, just wanted to say thanks for posting your knowledge on 4-top. I have never been a fan of topping, but went with your suggestion. Though my bud colas werent as thick as I would've liked them to be, I pulled close to 2 zips off a 36" lady. Nice suggestion.


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## The45King (Feb 20, 2011)

These were vegged for 3 week from seed then flowered 
Sweet grapefruit and BB Blue cheese will post pic when finished
Nice 1 ub


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## purplehazin (Feb 20, 2011)

Snafu1236 said:


> Hey, just wanted to say thanks for posting your knowledge on 4-top. I have never been a fan of topping, but went with your suggestion. Though my bud colas werent as thick as I would've liked them to be, I pulled close to 2 zips off a 36" lady. Nice suggestion.


Topping doesn't give cola's like untouched plants will, but I forget all about that when I look at the final dry weight


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## sso (Feb 20, 2011)

hey dude, see you are a big sativa guy, any tips on growing a pure sativa indoors? (some bagseed i got in vietnam, put down 20 seeds, 1 came up,lol)


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## rjl (Feb 20, 2011)

Hey UB. My retinas are screaming. I just finished reading the entire thread, reading your post's/replies mostly and in only took 6 hours. I don't know why RIU will not allow you to edit the thread. I fully understood the topping process and the ho moans. I just topped four of my afghan's started from seed, however I am unsure of the sex as of yet. All four had 6 true nodes, chopped just above the 2nd true node. Now I have four great clippings which were placed in soil tipped with hormone rooting powder.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 20, 2011)

rjl said:


> Hey UB. My retinas are screaming. I just finished reading the entire thread, reading your post's/replies mostly and in only took 6 hours. I don't know why RIU will not allow you to edit the thread. I fully understood the topping process and the ho moans. I just topped four of my afghan's started from seed, however I am unsure of the sex as of yet. All four had 6 true nodes, chopped just above the 2nd true node. Now I have four great clippings which were placed in soil tipped with hormone rooting powder.


That's what you get for looking directly into the sun LOL. Top and then sex, really doesn't matter. 

Here's hoping your cuttings take......

UB


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## thexception (Feb 20, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Good luck with that.
> 
> This thread has been going on for months (if not a few years). Where's the finished product? I'd like to see the end result.


Just posted a grow journal, used ur method on 3 out of 4 plants, will surely come back with final results for ya  Thanks again, UB!


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## middle84 (Feb 20, 2011)

So this might have been answered before, I haven't gone through all 322 pages but I have read many.

I topped most of my plants at above the second true node, I topped two above the third true node.

On the two I was going to clip the bottom two branches to clone. will this render the same effect as if I had topped them at the second true node?


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## Danielsgb (Feb 20, 2011)

If I get your question, then instead of 4 branches to become 4 Main Colas, you will have 2 branches for 2 Main Colas. I want to mention, as the 4 branches vegetate there will be other spots to get clones from. There is no need to take the whole lateral branches.
Daniels


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 21, 2011)

thexception said:


> Just posted a grow journal, used ur method on 3 out of 4 plants, will surely come back with final results for ya  Thanks again, UB!


We'd love to see them. 

Good luck,
UB


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## jungobo (Feb 21, 2011)

hey UB. 
i topped my laides acording to your first post, i love the result.

here they are : 
View attachment 1453391View attachment 1453392


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 21, 2011)

jungobo said:


> hey UB.
> i topped my laides acording to your first post, i love the result.
> 
> here they are :
> View attachment 1453391View attachment 1453392


Nice fat colas!


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## muph (Feb 21, 2011)

Mr.I said:


> if there are four main colas does that mean its longer flowering time? same?





Woomeister said:


> Sorry to disagree but flowering times can vary due to human intervention ie. lst-ing, incorrect temps, nutes etc.



... Um, that's not even what he was talking about, the correct answer would be no, it doesn't affect flowering time as long as it fully heals before flowing starts, flowering time _*IS*_ determined by genetics, whether it takes longer from human intervention or not.

I hope you have learned that since your post on 01/17/2009 (on the first page, before I noticed this thread is 322 pgs) , lol.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 22, 2011)

Regarding the affect on growth, folks need to read the first page where I made a point about the growth/vigor issue. How anyone would think this style of topping has an affect on the flowering response beats the hell outta me! Since some folks don't have the capacity to read, I'll C/P what I said:



> To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node. The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count. The result will be a redistribution of the auxins and other hormones that normally collect in the tissue of the terminal leader's tip. These ho moans will be redistributed to dormant buds that reside in the nodal axis where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk", below the cut. The new foliar output response will be quick (within 24 hrs., see photo below) if you have a healthy growing seedling and will be your future main colas - 4 instead of the usual 1:


UB


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## medicine21 (Feb 22, 2011)

Assume moderate/heavy yielding strain, hydro flood and drain, 6" RW cubes, plenty of light, CO2. Start with 3-5" clone, do an Uncle Ben topping when plant hits 5-6 nodes. How much could you expect to yield per plant if you can only veg for 4 weeks total and your setup is dialed in?


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## lbezphil2005 (Feb 23, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Assume moderate/heavy yielding strain, hydro flood and drain, 6" RW cubes, plenty of light, CO2. Start with 3-5" clone, do an Uncle Ben topping when plant hits 5-6 nodes. How much could you expect to yield per plant if you can only veg for 4 weeks total and your setup is dialed in?


4wX"rwXO2/square root of 3 to 5 inch clones = depends on the strain!


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## Danielsgb (Feb 23, 2011)

I think that ??? has way too many variables, but your ability to garden is huge. All depends of strength of root system & amount of foliage.
Daniels


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 23, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> I think that ??? has way too many variables, but your ability to garden is huge. All depends of strength of root system & amount of foliage.
> Daniels


Yep. That was a rhetorical question fer sure.


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## medicine21 (Feb 23, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Assume *moderate/heavy yielding strain*, hydro flood and drain, *6" RW cubes, plenty of light, CO2*. Start with 3-5" clone, do an Uncle Ben topping when plant hits 5-6 nodes. How much could you expect to yield per plant if you can only *veg for 4 weeks* total and your *setup is dialed in*?





Danielsgb said:


> I think that ??? has way too many variables, but your ability to garden is huge. All depends of strength of root system & amount of foliage.
> Daniels





Uncle Ben said:


> Yep. That was a rhetorical question fer sure.


Well, I do in fact realize that this is one of those "Dude how much dank can I bust out like dis?" questions, but I did highlight the items that remove most of the variables. I would take a guess at 3oz/plant but I don't have experience with this topping method and wanted to see what is realistic here.

Speaking of garden ability or skill, it may not be as important as you would believe. Check this out

_*What has been discovered from the YOR database*
In the final analysis, 53% of crop yield variations found in the YOR database can be uniquely explained with just four key influences every indoor cannabis garden has in common.

Lumens (31%)
HPS Spectrum (14%)
Experience (5%)
Hydroponic Medium (3%)_

For what it's worth I am doing 0.9g/W with 4000W HPS SOG right now.


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## BillyBobJoe (Feb 23, 2011)

Hey uncle ben, great guide on topping. I was thinking about LST, but since i'm not growing in dirt i think it would be hard to stake the plants down with my setup. I had a question for ya, it was probably covered some where in the thread but man this thing is 323 pages! 

I'm growing under 1000w MH and will bloom under HPS. My question is do I want to switch to HPS right after topping or should i let them veg a while longer? sorry if this was covered in your guide and i over looked it. i appreciate your help man.


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## two2brains (Feb 23, 2011)

will be doing the 4 cola technique for the first time on my next grow! (DNA Lemon Skunk)


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## purplehazin (Feb 23, 2011)

BillyBobJoe said:


> Hey uncle ben, great guide on topping. I was thinking about LST, but since i'm not growing in dirt i think it would be hard to stake the plants down with my setup. I had a question for ya, it was probably covered some where in the thread but man this thing is 323 pages!
> 
> I'm growing under 1000w MH and will bloom under HPS. My question is do I want to switch to HPS right after topping or should i let them veg a while longer? sorry if this was covered in your guide and i over looked it. i appreciate your help man.


It doesn't matter, though you should let the plant recover for a week before flowering anyway, so might as well keep it under the MH.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 23, 2011)

You should let them veg based on your plan, your garden's profile. Using either the MH or HPS for any of the cycles is immaterial. I'd combine the 2 and grow large bushes.


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## purplehazin (Feb 23, 2011)

Dual Spec HPS vegges just as well as MH; never understood why people feel the need to have 2 diff bulbs for veg and flower. The sun doesnt change...

CMH is where it's at.


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## The45King (Feb 24, 2011)

Here's 1 of 2 soma sogouda regs ive topped last night hopin for a girl
and if i get a girl or 2 these will be vegged for about 50 days total from 
breakin ground


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## rjl (Feb 24, 2011)

An updated photo of a UB approved, 2nd true node topping method, of an Afghan from seed. This photo shows new growth on day four after topping. notice the main cola has scabbed and healed allowing the auxins to collect in the newly formed cola's. This plant is showing about an inch of growth per day now.


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## The45King (Feb 24, 2011)

A nice lil pic


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## taint (Feb 24, 2011)

Toppings generally how I like to ride also,good thread ub.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 24, 2011)

Man, you guys are kikkin' butt!

Have fun.....


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## zizou21 (Feb 25, 2011)

YO UB remember me pal? I did your technique to the best my of my abilities, but check this out. 

It looks like I Have a lot more than 4 tops per plants LOL :{ These are 2 plants, I cut them when one had 6 nodes and the other 5 nodes. 

The problem i think, is that I trained the main stems to stay even w/ the rest of the plant. Should I have not done this? Although I'm kind of glad they are short and bushy now since I am a little height constricted. Let me know what you think.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 25, 2011)

zizou21 said:


> YO UB remember me pal? I did your technique to the best my of my abilities, but check this out.
> 
> It looks like I Have a lot more than 4 tops per plants LOL :{ These are 2 plants, I cut them when one had 6 nodes and the other 5 nodes.
> 
> The problem i think, is that I trained the main stems to stay even w/ the rest of the plant. Should I have not done this? Although I'm kind of glad they are short and bushy now since I am a little height constricted. Let me know what you think.


If that's one plant, I think you got a shaky hand! Ya missed lol.


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## Justin00 (Feb 25, 2011)

if you super crop at the same place, just above the second node, will you achieve the same results? (except 5 colas instead of 4) 

Also just a little clarification as my plants are about to the point where i need to do this....the second node....

my plants have in this order:
- little round seeds leaves
- single finger leaf node + tiny tiny tiny stems
- 3 finger leaf node + reasonable stems (little bigger than small)
CUT POINT ???
- 5 finger leaf node + small stems
- 7 finger leaf node + little buds that would be steams in future

i just not sure about the tiny tiny tiny stems at the single finger leaf nodes, do those count and will they take off and grow?


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## dannyboy602 (Feb 25, 2011)

View attachment 1461703

Here's a pic of BC God after going to T5 School for 5wks. I want four main large colas. If you put your glasses on you can see the pruning mark.
Now she's under 1000MH with CO2 hovering around 1300. Soil is a rich mix. Not too rich though. 
Oh my question was...about when should I begin feeding according to manufacturer's feeding schelule...Like next week or two mb? 
Help me Oh Ohbie Wan Ben...you're my only hope....


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## zizou21 (Feb 25, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> If that's one plant, I think you got a shaky hand! Ya missed lol.


DONT U KNOW HOW TO READ THE OP IT SAYS THERE ARE 2 PLANTS 


but ya i would say there are 6 main colas per plant.. u think its because of the LST i did? Do you LST yours ? If so, could you briefly explain how?


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## skunkd0c (Feb 25, 2011)

i have found little use in topping during the veg stage in my garden, but have found good results topping at around week2 of flower just before the buds develop, this causes all the middle and lower branches to grow up to the light, the middle branches become the new heads but all sit at around the same hight which i find an advantage as it allows you to get the light closer to the whole canopy rather than have heads sticking out above the rest of the canopy


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 26, 2011)

zizou21 said:


> DONT U KNOW HOW TO READ THE OP IT SAYS THERE ARE 2 PLANTS
> 
> 
> but ya i would say there are 6 main colas per plant.. u think its because of the LST i did? Do you LST yours ? If so, could you briefly explain how?


No, I don't do LST or windows.


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## fuk (Feb 26, 2011)

great and informative thread guys, just a shame i have to read through 315 pages of repeat questions from people who are too tired to read it, Thanx and kudos to you

laterz


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## nog (Feb 26, 2011)

is there a boil in the bag version?


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## zizou21 (Feb 26, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> No, I don't do LST or windows.


Hm, so after you cut the main stem, you just let them grow naturally? How tall do they get?


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## Spartan h20 (Feb 26, 2011)

Hey all, you guys have packed a lot of info in this post, I'm a newbie & I appreciate it. Uncle Ben they say only believe 10% of what youread on the internet & after reading this entire post I'm convinced your a fraction of that 10%.
..so I went ahead & snippet my purple skunk at the second node. She's 18 days old & i can't wait to see how she turns out, gonna veg her for 2mo. Once again thanks for the great info UB & everyone else that contributed to this post. Here's a pic. Although she doesn't look it / she 7 inches


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 27, 2011)

Spartan h20 said:


> Hey all, you guys have packed a lot of info in this post, I'm a newbie & I appreciate it. Uncle Ben they say only believe 10% of what youread on the internet & after reading this entire post I'm convinced your a fraction of that 10%.
> ..so I went ahead & snippet my purple skunk at the second node. She's 18 days old & i can't wait to see how she turns out, gonna veg her for 2mo. Once again thanks for the great info UB & everyone else that contributed to this post. Here's a pic. Although she doesn't look it / she 7 inches[IMG]http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x103/statemag100/Mobile Uploads/1298776177.jpg[/IMG]


Thanks, lookin' good!



zizou21 said:


> Hm, so after you cut the main stem, you just let them grow naturally? How tall do they get?


They get as tall as I want them to be, which for my sativa doms, is about 46" tall, flowering at 12-14" tall.

Your call........


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## CombatVeterans 4 Cannabis (Mar 1, 2011)

UB, LOL, I would be sitting on top of a bell tower waiting for the lazy dumb people who dont care to READ & LEARN and just want to cut to the chase and make you repeat yourself 1,00 times. I read 30plus pages then I actually started to go mad from the same type of douches asking the same questions. It kinda like bothering famous peeps for their autographs. Its gotta get tiring. anywho, you posted a very clear & precise method on how to use YOUR technique and for that I SALUTE YOU!!!

I am a 1st time grower & I read & learned & read some more & even learned a bit more before jumping into growing. I also got tired of the chase of finding quality smoke. I suffer from severe PTSD (nightmares, Cold Sweats, Anxiety, Paranoia, Etc Etc ETc , Facial Scarring from IED my Humvee drove over, Hearing Loss, & Daily Aches & Pains, and in my state I am a criminal for doing the one thing that makes me feel comfortable within my own head, MEDICATING...In My state, last year, MML failed by 6% but is Highly favored to pass this year. Then i wont be a criminal but a Man with a prescription. My Psych Doc says he would prescribe M.M. to over half his patients. Well i guess im telling you this because you are at the forefront of MML being a commercial grower and all. Plus you give Men & Women like myself important information on to successfully produce quality medications... THANX AGAIN!!!

Here the link to pics of my 1st grow of Himalayan Gold 10-14 days till harvest. DWC 400w HPS - Nutes: AN Connoisseur, AN Big Bud, AN Bud Candy, Botanicare Sweet Berry Carbos, Emerald Triangle's Snow Storm Ultra.
I Made so many mistakes like way over trimming, running out of nutes 3 weeks into flowering for 8 days, No timer for 1st 1.5 months, too many to count. But now im more informed and ive learned what to do and not to do...well here the link..
https://www.rollitup.org/members/combatveterans-4-cannabis-320160-albums.html
Few Pics for ya'all who dont click on link:
 Combat Veterans For Cannabis


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 1, 2011)

CombatVeterans 4 Cannabis said:


> UB, LOL, I would be sitting on top of a bell tower waiting for the lazy dumb people who dont care to READ & LEARN and just want to cut to the chase and make you repeat yourself 1,000 times. I read 30plus pages then I actually started to go mad from the same type of douches asking the same questions.


Yeah, if they didn't get it by the first page, they never will. Alot of it is plain ol newbie anxiety, which is understandable. Your plant looks good. You must be proud.

Just found another example, this one of a 'C99 X TFD Original Haze' cross I did. Notice that the cotyledons are still attached and healthy. 






Happy harvest,
UB


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## Medicalman95 (Mar 2, 2011)

On average how tall are the plants before topped? and how many days of vegging before you can top it? To get 4 cola's that is, my plants are 7 days old only like 3 inches tall, got WW, blue mystic, and snow white.


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## withoutAchance (Mar 2, 2011)

a few whitewidows ill be topping at second node only thing is with clones sometimes i cut 1 to 2 nodes off even after rooting and plant 2 inches of main stem into coco so im not sure how many nodes ive got but im thinkin ill go with the second one i have that is currently growing sound about right too you TIO.


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## beezkneez (Mar 3, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Cool. Gotta ask, what happened to the fan leaves?


 Strain is known for small skinny fan leaves. Lots of bud development between nodes. This was a few weeks back so ill take a new pic, they look great! 

Edit: If you mean the distorted colors on some of them it was the flash from the camera


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## drekoushranada (Mar 3, 2011)

Thanks for the awesome thread!


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## withoutAchance (Mar 3, 2011)

i guess i missed the seconf node becuse im only getting 2 new growth and they are all substancial 1/2 -2.5 inches in 4 days after topping some plants are diffantly heathier than others all same strain from same mother also topped afew strawberry blues tonight looking for 4 terminal top, will be topping a few Ak-47 tomarrow just figuring this second node out on clones is a bit gooffy as i cut some of the nodes of at rooting and again at trans- planting to develope more roots of the main stem any help as uve read im just getting 2 shoots.


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## Devildog93 (Mar 4, 2011)

Thanks for the great sticky Uncle Ben 

I have been growing for years (not currently though)and have topped on several occasions but could never put two and two together as to why sometimes I got 4 tops, and other times I got 2. It was kind of frustrating actually, and eventually I went from soil to hydro table short plant sea-of-green style. High turn over, no time for vegging more than a week or two.


Now I have learned something pretty cool..lol. I think I may try this once up and running. + rep


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 4, 2011)

Medicalman95 said:


> On average how tall are the plants before topped?


About 8"



withoutAchance said:


> a few whitewidows ill be topping at second node only thing is with clones sometimes i cut 1 to 2 nodes off even after rooting and plant 2 inches of main stem into coco so im not sure how many nodes ive got but im thinkin ill go with the second one i have that is currently growing sound about right too you TIO.


That'll work.



beezkneez said:


> Strain is known for small skinny fan leaves. Lots of bud development between nodes. This was a few weeks back so ill take a new pic, they look great!
> 
> Edit: If you mean the distorted colors on some of them it was the flash from the camera


I meant the loss of leaves. What food are you using?

Good luck fellers......


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## beezkneez (Mar 5, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> A
> I meant the loss of leaves. What food are you using?
> 
> Good luck fellers......


Lack of foliage? I use foxfarm nutes.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 5, 2011)

beezkneez said:


> Lack of foliage? I use foxfarm nutes.


What are the NPK values of your "nutes"?


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## beezkneez (Mar 5, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> What are the NPK values of your "nutes"?


Well I had the Big bloom, tiger bloom, and grow big but ran out in the middle of flower with this girl(also lack of funds).. I am buying new nutes today and was wondering what you suggest for soil. What does Uncle Ben use on his soil girls


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## Danielsgb (Mar 5, 2011)

beezkneez said:


> Well I had the Big bloom, tiger bloom, and grow big but ran out in the middle of flower with this girl(also lack of funds).. I am buying new nutes today and was wondering what you suggest for soil. What does Uncle Ben use on his soil girls


Jack's Classic is what I use, and it's cheap. 20-20-20 with good mix of micros. $10 to $20. I've seen UB mention a ton of different ones, so this will be interesting to see. I think anything in the ratio is what matters. Keeping them Green is my goal.
Daniels


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## beezkneez (Mar 6, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> Jack's Classic is what I use, and it's cheap. 20-20-20 with good mix of micros. $10 to $20. I've seen UB mention a ton of different ones, so this will be interesting to see. I think anything in the ratio is what matters. Keeping them Green is my goal.
> Daniels


Ive been doing a ton of reading the past few days and have decided that name brand nutes are bullshit! Just need some nitrogen and phosphate  rest is in my soil. Ill either pick up some flower nova series or jacks


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## Danielsgb (Mar 6, 2011)

I realized I'm getting close to running out of Jack's. I got a 8 oz. to try it, loved it & got a 16 oz. Lasted me from July growing countless plants. I bet my local Hydro shop doesn't even carry it. I know the local nursery does. But why would they carry it? They can't sell me 6 other additives, which work for Cannabis. Maybe with a label with a big breasted blonde for $40/qt. Good luck.
Daniels


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 6, 2011)

beezkneez said:


> Well I had the Big bloom, tiger bloom, and grow big .....


Never mind.......


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 6, 2011)

First and formost much respect for your topping tech. and all the help you have given people,
and with that said im here for help as well, I have a few plants from seed and im wondering whats the 
best way to clone for sex what step do i take.


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## Neumann (Mar 6, 2011)

I aero-clone, then move into hydroton in my DWC for veg. Often when I place them in the net pots, I snip the bottom node because it ends up too close to the hydroton. Am I dooming my four cola attempt from the start or will the plant redistribute hormones, so my *second* node will eventually become my first?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 7, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> First and formost much respect for your topping tech. and all the help you have given people,
> and with that said im here for help as well, I have a few plants from seed and im wondering whats the
> best way to clone for sex what step do i take.


Clone for sex? Recommend you post the question in Newbie Central.



Neumann said:


> I aero-clone, then move into hydroton in my DWC for veg. Often when I place them in the net pots, I snip the bottom node because it ends up too close to the hydroton. Am I dooming my four cola attempt from the start or will the plant redistribute hormones, so my *second* node will eventually become my first?


I doubt if that will work but it doesn't hurt to try.


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## PacoDegato (Mar 7, 2011)

Just an idea, so I'm going to throw it out there: 

I realize that there is a lot of good info in this thread, but realistically it has become way too cumbersome for someone to read through it. Many things have been asked/answered multiple times and I've only managed to read through the first couple dozen pages. Also, much of the info is off topic in regards to nutrients, CO2, etc. (just from how far I've read so far).

So, how about one of you masters who have read through the entire thread (UB, you'd be the best one obviously, but it's up to whoever would have the expertise AND time) consolidate and/or make a thread or blogsite with a table of contents? I'm pretty sure wordpress.ubtopping.com would be available...

Anyway, I cut one of my plants (first grow) as you've described, and I have four others yet to do. I just figured I'd witness for myself that the first one survives before I decapitate another.

White Rhino and Strawberry Cough are my strains. No idea if I have any females yet as I didn't buy feminized.

P


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 7, 2011)

PacoDegato said:


> Just an idea, so I'm going to throw it out there:
> 
> I realize that there is a lot of good info in this thread, but realistically it has become way too cumbersome for someone to read through it. Many things have been asked/answered multiple times and I've only managed to read through the first couple dozen pages. Also, much of the info is off topic in regards to nutrients, CO2, etc. (just from how far I've read so far).
> 
> So, how about one of you masters who have read through the entire thread (UB, you'd be the best one obviously, but it's up to whoever would have the expertise AND time) consolidate and/or make a thread or blogsite with a table of contents? I'm pretty sure wordpress.ubtopping.com would be available...


Well, that's an issue that has been discussed many times in this thread LOL. Again, if you want, write RIU or a senior mod like potroast and get them to unlock my first post so I can edit it. I can then create a comprehensive FAQ and address all of the questions. Why admin insists on keeping the author locked out of his own posts is pretty weird. I'm sure there is a backup in case the author decides to delete the post (horrors!).

Good luck,
UB


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## PacoDegato (Mar 7, 2011)

Haha, that's pretty funny (that my suggestion (but of course it has been...stupid of me to assume it hadn't been) hasn't already been made numerous times in the 300+ pages)!

Maybe I'll do the wordpress thing sometime and just cut and paste what you have here. I'm not sure I'll have the time, but maybe if I start it a couple others will pitch in to help me. Of course, all credit will go to the original posters...

P


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## Neumann (Mar 7, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> I doubt if that will work but it doesn't hurt to try.


So, essentially once the clone has roots, it's a plant. Once it's a plant, the first node is the first node. It *might* change over time but don't bet the rent money? 

Is that the gist of it? 

Could I still count from that node point even though it's been pinched off or will taking that node have shut the door totally on the possibility of four colas?


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## DaGrapeApe (Mar 7, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Well, that's an issue that has been discussed many times in this thread LOL. Again, if you want, write RIU or a senior mod like potroast and get them to unlock my first post so I can edit it. I can then create a comprehensive FAQ and address all of the questions. Why admin insists on keeping the author locked out of his own posts is pretty weird. I'm sure there is a backup in case the author decides to delete the post (horrors!).
> 
> Good luck,
> UB


Much love uncle ben.
What about making a new thread, and having them sticky that? Then your first post could be the orignal post info with the additional FAQ material. Might be the easiest way to get it done.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 7, 2011)

DaGrapeApe said:


> Much love uncle ben.
> What about making a new thread, and having them sticky that? Then your first post could be the orignal post info with the additional FAQ material. Might be the easiest way to get it done.


They shut down the author's right to edit their content shortly. Take it up with admin.

Peace, love and German chocolate cupcakes.....
UB


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## The45King (Mar 8, 2011)

The first page was enough for me and here we are 328 pages in 
the 2 soma beans i topped wer both male so popped a couple more 
at weekend wil top em again for sure wanna try and grow 1 out 
properly (long veg) peace all


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 8, 2011)

The45King said:


> The first page was enough for me and here we are 328 pages in
> the 2 soma beans i topped wer both male so popped a couple more
> at weekend wil top em again for sure wanna try and grow 1 out
> properly (long veg) peace all


FWIW, I top 'em all, if they turn out to be good males, I save the pollen for breeding later on.

UB


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## fatboyOGOF (Mar 8, 2011)

uncle ben you old fart! i haven't seen your name in years. was it cannabis.com you used to post at or...? nice to see you are still kicking!

i'll have to do some reading and see what you're up to! cheers!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 9, 2011)

fatboyOGOF said:


> uncle ben you old fart! i haven't seen your name in years. was it cannabis.com you used to post at or...? nice to see you are still kicking!
> 
> i'll have to do some reading and see what you're up to! cheers!


Yeah, cannabis.com was the first one (actually ADPC newsgroup before that with using encrypted chained servers). How long ago was that, 15 years? What was your handle then? 

Welcome to the thread,
Tio


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## Danielsgb (Mar 9, 2011)

Morning UB, I made a new batch of soil. Can you take a look?
*Well Here Goes Again *#822
I'm gonna top these 2 Tangerine Dream when they are ready.
Daniels


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## medicine21 (Mar 9, 2011)

Why is this topping method better than topping once at 5th or 6th node to get two colas and THEN a few days or a week later topping them again for 4 colas?


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## riddleme (Mar 9, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Why is this topping method better than topping once at 5th or 6th node to get two colas and THEN a few days or a week later topping them again for 4 colas?


UB's method makes the best use apical dominance (which he explains) your right topping is topping but understanding how and why the plant reacts to it and optimizing it is what this thread is about


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## medicine21 (Mar 9, 2011)

Ok, I see the technical explanation HERE. But the net result with UB topping is what - faster growth of the lower branches and bigger buds due to more auxins than the "topping twice" method? It seems like UB topping has to catch up here as it is initially a bigger prune of the plant (4 nodes removed).


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 9, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Why is this topping method better than topping once at 5th or 6th node to get two colas and THEN a few days or a week later topping them again for 4 colas?


I never said this topping method is "better". I said it is what I do and gave my reasons for doing it.


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## smoke n strum (Mar 9, 2011)

Hello UB, I have been lurking your threads for about three weeks and have read 300 or more pages. This is a great thread and i wanted to thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise with all the folks on this site and elsewhere i'm sure. I just typed a message to add to this thread and spent about an hour doing it and when i went to add my pics it deleted the message for the second time, so i guess i'll just send this and try to figure the pic thing out later. 

I like the common sense, scientific approach you take toward growing this plant. I was first introduced to pot in 1971, and well, I liked it. lol. I have grown one outdoor plant in 1982 or 83 I think, and in spite my ignorance of growing technique and lack of attention to the plant, it grew, matured and was smoked and it was some bad ass weed. My point is, this plant is tough and not hard to grow. Growing indoors makes a big difference since you have to actually create the environment for the plant though, but it is still not that mystical as the nute sellers would have you believe. 

So now I have an indoor grow going that is about a month old. I'm growing in a tent 4'x2'x5'tall. 400 watt HID dig ballast, currently MH bulb, have hps for when i go 12/12. I tried to germinate some bagseeds I got last summer and literally combed through the carpet i my stash closet to find seeds down in the carpet that I have dropped over the last 10 years or more. I attempted about 35 seeds and 11 (i think) germed. Of those, three just stopped growing after the cotyledons came up, so whether its user error, or just bad seeds, i don't know, but i have germed plenty of seeds over the years and never had this big of a failure rate. I am a vegetable grower too, so I sort of know what I'm doing, but nowhere near like you and riddlme and a bunch of others do. 

I am completely amazed at all the hype, (superstition almost that surrounds the pot growing community). Basically, I am a cynical SOB, and a cheapskate that was raised by parents that grew up during the great depression. How in the world do these sheep believe all these charlatans selling their snake oil. When I see the videos like Big Mike with Advanced nutrients and that gangster looking sidekick of his plying their wares it makes me laugh. I don't see how people can believe their BS. It is a complete joke to me. Give me some air, water, soil, and sunlight, and I will grow you some weed. That's how i see it. I spent 25 bucks on enough fertilizer to grow plants in my tent for 10 years and probably still have some left over. Wtf people! wake up. I guarantee you J.R Peters has forgotten more about how to grow a plant than Big Mike or Fox Farms or any of these Marijuana fert sellers will ever know. Ok done ranting.

Uncle Ben thanks, I will continue reading and if I can figure this pic thing out, I'll show you my plants. rep+ bro. take care


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## Danielsgb (Mar 9, 2011)

Go Advanced then the Insert Image button. Then Select Files, pick your picture & upload then the pencil icon to make it medium or large size. 
Hope that makes sense to upload your pics. Glad you see through the hype and bullshit.
Daniels


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## smoke n strum (Mar 9, 2011)

Thanks Daniels, I'll give that a try manana. (thats tomorrow in american) thanks a bunch 4 the help. should I do a +rep for you now. I need to learn how to do things on this site. Like +rep. I am finding this site very hard to navigate, and figure out what makes it tick. like +rep for example. I know it's good, but I don't know when I am supposed to give that to someone etc. sns


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## Danielsgb (Mar 9, 2011)

It takes a bit to figure out. You only get to rep someone once for a long time, so I kinda save them for a harvest I've followed. You should put your name in there so they know who gave it to them. Save giving me a rep until I help you with something else. Just helping you post a pic isn't worthy.
Daniels


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## smoke n strum (Mar 9, 2011)

The largest one is about a month old and three have been topped and I'm trying to get three clones going. A bunch are not germinating.


It is what it is, not perfect, but I am working on it.


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## smoke n strum (Mar 9, 2011)

I went too big on my pots too soon. I figured it would be less stressful for the plants if i only transplanted one time, but i wish i had not done that now. It makes it too hard to judge the watering. The top of the pots dry out and there is still a lot of water in the bottom.Plants are still too small to drink that much i guess. opinions welcomed. Plus I need the room so i can get more plants going in case it turns out to be a dude fest after i turn them to flower. Grow and learn. I also followed the directions on a bottle of Medina hastogrow 6-12-6 organic fertilizer. It says to use an ounce per gallon for transplanting. I now know that was meant for bigger plants. I had 1/4 teaspoon of superthrive in the mix too. What a maroon I was. geez. Lucky i didn't kill them. You can see the burn on the leaves of the big one where I spilled some on the foilage. I have very hard water. close to 400ppm. Our water comes from a limestone underground aquifer and there is a lot of limescale that collects on everything the water touches. I have a tds meter on the way. I am filtering with a brita filter, but i am thinking i might have to start using RO from the grocery store. My tds meter will be here tomorrow so i can see what is really happening. It appears to me that the leaves are too light colored like they need N, but there is N in there. It may be being locked out by all the calcium. sns


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## smoke n strum (Mar 10, 2011)

Just a quick additional comment UB, so you can get the whole picture. I had two plants that were too yellowy looking. You can see them in the last two pics I posted. The first is the long skinny leaved sativa looking Girl(i hope) in the 1 gallon paint can at the bottom of the second to last pic. (Cans have a bunch of 1/2" holes drilled in the bottom and side on bottom. they drain well ). , the second is in the last pic. I did a lot of research about it and knowing i have very hard water and them looking like they needed "N", I gave the two of them only some Jack's Classic acid special 17-6-6 at 1/4 teaspoon per gallon three days ago. I looked at them this morning and they look darker green to me now. I also fed the other two in the smart pots some Jack's 20-20-20 at 1/4 teaspoon per gallon. Like I said in another post, My tds meter is coming today. I don't worry about PH, because i figure if I get the ppm right, the ph will be right too. I have the following plant helpers available to me. Dynamic Duo, Acid special, Medina hastogro 6-12-6 and (superthrive, which I am not sure is of any value) . One other note: staring at your plants for long periods of time does not make them grow faster. sns


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 10, 2011)

smoke n strum said:


> Hello UB, I have been lurking your threads for about three weeks and have read 300 or more pages. This is a great thread and i wanted to thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise with all the folks on this site and elsewhere i'm sure. I just typed a message to add to this thread and spent about an hour doing it and when i went to add my pics it deleted the message for the second time, so i guess i'll just send this and try to figure the pic thing out later.


Appreciate the kind words. Welcome to RIU and the thread.



> I like the common sense, scientific approach you take toward growing this plant. I was first introduced to pot in 1971, and well, I liked it. lol. I have grown one outdoor plant in 1982 or 83 I think, and in spite my ignorance of growing technique and lack of attention to the plant, it grew, matured and was smoked and it was some bad ass weed. My point is, this plant is tough and not hard to grow. Growing indoors makes a big difference since you have to actually create the environment for the plant though, but it is still not that mystical as the nute sellers would have you believe.


Of all plant material I've grown and you name it, I've grown it, cannabis is the easiest to grow. 



> So now I have an indoor grow going that is about a month old. I'm growing in a tent 4'x2'x5'tall. 400 watt HID dig ballast, currently MH bulb, have hps for when i go 12/12. I tried to germinate some bagseeds I got last summer and literally combed through the carpet i my stash closet to find seeds down in the carpet that I have dropped over the last 10 years or more. I attempted about 35 seeds and 11 (i think) germed. Of those, three just stopped growing after the cotyledons came up, so whether its user error, or just bad seeds, i don't know, but i have germed plenty of seeds over the years and never had this big of a failure rate. I am a vegetable grower too, so I sort of know what I'm doing, but nowhere near like you and riddlme and a bunch of others do.


More than likely pythium got them. Did the trunk at ground level turn watery and brown and then the plants fell over? 



> I am completely amazed at all the hype, (superstition almost that surrounds the pot growing community). Basically, I am a cynical SOB, and a cheapskate that was raised by parents that grew up during the great depression. How in the world do these sheep believe all these charlatans selling their snake oil.


Is it crazy or what? I can only laugh, and then get flamed at for speaking against the madness. Check this out for instance: https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/406078-bushmaster-gravity-questions-rep-good.html That's one of about 50.



> When I see the videos like Big Mike with Advanced nutrients and that gangster looking sidekick of his plying their wares it makes me laugh.


It is funny. On "one" of those threads here, there was a guy that thought he hung the moon, gave us a link, something about BM touting someone else's product over his while preaching the sales games of his staff. These guys are wackos, laughing all the way to the bank. Got to admit, I do like the half naked chick at the AN website LOL. Tits sell.....



> I don't see how people can believe their BS. It is a complete joke to me. Give me some air, water, soil, and sunlight, and I will grow you some weed. That's how i see it. I spent 25 bucks on enough fertilizer to grow plants in my tent for 10 years and probably still have some left over. Wtf people! wake up. I guarantee you J.R Peters has forgotten more about how to grow a plant than Big Mike or Fox Farms or any of these Marijuana fert sellers will ever know. Ok done ranting.


We're cut from the say cloth.



Danielsgb said:


> Go Advanced then the Insert Image button. Then Select Files, pick your picture & upload then the pencil icon to make it medium or large size.
> Hope that makes sense to upload your pics. Glad you see through the hype and bullshit.
> Daniels


Yep, worked for me, thanks.

Make it a great day,
UB


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## smoke n strum (Mar 10, 2011)

UB, they didnt fall over. after about 10 days of no growth, I executed them. Thanks for the reply. sns


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## smoke n strum (Mar 10, 2011)

I'm reading about pythium...thanks


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## frogster (Mar 11, 2011)

Smoke n strum ,,, try to start a journal, im a newb (about finished with first grow, whew!!, looks like I made it, mistakes and all) , but I will follow it if you make a journal ... and give input were I can... I kinda like the nutes im using even they are "premium" I grow in hydro and these nutes keep the salt build up away... (amino acid based) I will switch to a cheaper version if I find one,,, but being chelated seems to keep the nute uptake range in check and I hardly have to adjust ph, ever! So, maybe not snakeoil in my case, I think dirt farmers have a little more options on cheaper nutes.


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## smoke n strum (Mar 11, 2011)

Hello frogster, Yeah, i have started taking pics and am thinking about starting a journal soon. I can't Bogart UB's thread anymore... sorry about that UB..got a little carried away there. I am a little worried about security having a grow going.. this is the first time I have spent any time on one of these sites, so i am nervous about being found out. Cultivation laws are pretty harsh. I don't know much about internet security. Thanks for the shout out Frogster... and UB keep on growin...sns


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## smoke n strum (Mar 12, 2011)

I topped the fourth one yesterday. Here are some pics. I took a clone being that I want two of these if they turn out to girls. I had to think about chopping that baby down for a few minutes but then I went back and looked at some of your pics in this thread and it got a lot easier. Any critiques are welcomed.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 12, 2011)

smoke n strum said:


> Hello frogster, Yeah, i have started taking pics and am thinking about starting a journal soon. I can't Bogart UB's thread anymore... sorry about that UB..got a little carried away there. I am a little worried about security having a grow going.. this is the first time I have spent any time on one of these sites, so i am nervous about being found out. Cultivation laws are pretty harsh. I don't know much about internet security. Thanks for the shout out Frogster... and UB keep on growin...sns


If you're worried about security, buy an anon account. Take care of your security issues before you grow.

Good luck,
UB


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## The45King (Mar 12, 2011)

I thought we was all anon lol


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## smoke n strum (Mar 12, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> If you're worried about security, buy an anon account. Take care of your security issues before you grow.
> 
> Good luck,
> UB


Ok, I'll look into that.Thanks for the reply


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## tigger98 (Mar 13, 2011)

Used Uncle Ben's Technique today on my Raspberry Cough. She was 3.5 weeks old, and very hard for me to cut , but she is a Sativa plant with limited space. Hope it works UB!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 13, 2011)

tigger98 said:


> Used Uncle Ben's Technique today on my Raspberry Cough. She was 3.5 weeks old, and very hard for me to cut , but she is a Sativa plant with limited space. Hope it works UB!
> 
> 
> View attachment 1491700View attachment 1491701View attachment 1491696


Based on a glance at the first photo, it worked. The rest is up to you.

Good luck,
UB


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## hoagtech (Mar 13, 2011)

Sorry to interupt convo goin. I just read the toping technique. Thanks for sharing man. Its a good one


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## zizou21 (Mar 13, 2011)

So how bad is it that I came out with 6-8 colas on my plants? Should I treat these any differently come harvesting time? Maybe I will need to wait longer to harvest? Looking for any thoughts about this :[


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## dlively11 (Mar 13, 2011)

I tried this so called scientific approach to the T and it failed miserably. Some plants ended up with 6 colas, some 5 some 3 and some 4 just like other members have posted. Even with two colas one would usually be much larger then the other . I am amazed at how many people have posted in this thread, there clearly wasnt enough scientific testing done . Unclue Ben your results are no by any means reliable and yet you pass them off as fact. You really need to learn what makes a plant tick before trying to educate people on what does and doesnt work. As I said VERY inconsistant results. You act like you are reinventing the wheel. You are just topping a plant . Stop trying to make it seem like anything more. Like its never been discussed before in here . Also your pcitures you posted are less then impressive. Back to the drawing board I guess .....


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## brick20 (Mar 13, 2011)

zizou21 said:


> So how bad is it that I came out with 6-8 colas on my plants? Should I treat these any differently come harvesting time? Maybe I will need to wait longer to harvest? Looking for any thoughts about this :[


SOME STRAINs HAVE RECESSIVE GENES TO TOPPING AS IF IT WERE FIMeD, AND CAUSING IT TO BE MASTER CROPPED OR BUSHY, BUT THAT'S A GOOD THING...


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## Flo Grow (Mar 14, 2011)

zizou21 said:


> So how bad is it that I came out with 6-8 colas on my plants? Should I treat these any differently come harvesting time? Maybe I will need to wait longer to harvest? Looking for any thoughts about this :[


*It really depends on what you're after.*
*It's not a bad thing either.*
*Mr Soul, creater of Cinderella 99, suggests topping C99 at the 4th node for maximum yield.*
*That's 8 main branches basically, so as you can see it's also strain dependent.*
*I just grew C99 for the 1st time and in DWC.*
*I also topped at the 4th node as the 6th was forming.*
*I only veg'd for 35 days from seed and the link in my signature tells my DRY yield..................lol*


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 14, 2011)

brick20 said:


> SOME STRAINs HAVE RECESSIVE GENES TO TOPPING AS IF IT WERE FIMeD, AND CAUSING IT TO BE MASTER CROPPED OR BUSHY, BUT THAT'S A GOOD THING...


The output has nothing to do with genes, it's all about hormonal responses. Sativas or indicas or mutts all will respond the same way. 

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 14, 2011)

zizou21 said:


> So how bad is it that I came out with 6-8 colas on my plants? Should I treat these any differently come harvesting time? Maybe I will need to wait longer to harvest? Looking for any thoughts about this :[


It's not bad, unless you were aiming specifically for 4 main colas, in which case you chose the wrong spot on the plant to pinch/cut and/or the plant was in a state of alternating phytolaxxy.

Amount of time to harvest has nothing to do with the number of main colas. When they're ready, they're ready.

UB


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## charlie2na (Mar 14, 2011)

OK, SO i'VE GONE AND TOPPED FOR FOUR COLAS WITH GREAT SUCCESS. NOW A QUESTION STILL REMAINS.....DOES IT AFFECT THE PLANT DIFFERENTLY IF i WAIT TILL THE TOP IS BIG ENOUGH TO CLONE IN A DAISY CLONER.....MAYBE 4-5 WEEKS OLD ?


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## dlively11 (Mar 14, 2011)

This method simply doesnt work consistantly. I cant beleive you are just topping plants and claiming as "Unclues Ben's technique " LOL. Suckers born every day I guess. Been done for thousands of years.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 14, 2011)

charlie2na said:


> OK, SO i'VE GONE AND TOPPED FOR FOUR COLAS WITH GREAT SUCCESS. NOW A QUESTION STILL REMAINS.....DOES IT AFFECT THE PLANT DIFFERENTLY IF i WAIT TILL THE TOP IS BIG ENOUGH TO CLONE IN A DAISY CLONER.....MAYBE 4-5 WEEKS OLD ?


Anyone using Miss Daisy have an answer?


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## jwl (Mar 14, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Anyone using Miss Daisy have an answer?


 Not right now,I'm driving her...
Look kids,listen to UBs advice. He's spot on. I've been lurking for a year to get some 1st class info.I find it better to lurk& learn than to open my mouth an ask a question that has been answered 100 times or more.I'm a dirt guy...Works for me.Why do all my water culture friends ask me how I do it,when they've been active for years,and I.m a noob? Simple...It's more forgiving of my mistakes.And I've made plenty.
I have some problems with my tomatoes,cukes,eggplant etc.,etc., So what,as long as I learned why I had the problem,I learn something....I'll fix it in the future.
Keep ragging on UB if you must,but I've found his info to be top shelf.. For Christs sake,the guy has been growing since we were in short pants,and I have to respect my elders.Even if I'm only a couple years behind.
I'd like to have the $$$ you guys spent, looking for a wonder cure...I'd take a vacation....
My first harvest harvest proves he's the man. He walked me through it,even if he didn't like my fox farm.-Said"I wouldn't pour that on my lawn" So what...I did.
And I had mucho bud, Thank you very much UB. My lawn is dying,but so what! I think I know what You're talking about... And it's not lawns...Much respect,
JWL

s Spot on


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## smoke n strum (Mar 14, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> The output has nothing to do with genes, it's all about hormonal responses. Sativas or indicas or mutts all will respond the same way.
> 
> UB


I just wanted to thank you again for your advice in this thread on how to top. I used the the method that produces 4 main colas that you described on page one of this thread. I started all of my plants from old bag seed and this is my first indoor grow. Fortunately for me, I found this thread a few days before it was time to top the first plant, and since them I have topped 4 more, including one that i just did...it's a lanky looking sativa that looks a bit like Oaxacan ( I'm hoping ). I am amazed at how consistent this method of topping is...I am getting 4 main colas on every one of these plants so far, even though they are all different looking genotypes,(i think thats the right term)which confirms what you just said in this post. Pics included

I also followed your lead and bought some Jack's Classic (straight from their website).. I bought three types of their nutes...acid special(i have very hard water), and the Dynamic Duo which you know what that is I know. I got the 1.5 lb tubs and with shipping it was around 30 bucks including UPS shipping, a far cry from the exorbitant prices many are paying for their nutes, adn so far my plants are responding in an amazing fashion. 

I don't kiss anyone's ass UB, but i do believe in giving credit where credit is due. It is a great service you are performing, doing your part to spread the word about how to grow our favorite plant, and doing it a sensible way, unlike some who would have you spending hundreds of dollars for inferior products that.. well I won't get into that again... ( I could not find the tit pics on AN's website...damn!!) 

I also followed your advice about water...I received my tds meter last week and my tap water was 300 ppm. I went to the grocery store and bought some of the RO water from the vending machine there. It was $1.75 for 5 gallons and I am mixing that about 60/40 with my tap water run through a Brita filter for (before nutes) ppm of about 125. I am adding Jack's balanced 20-20-20 at 1/2 teaspoon per gallon every time I water and they look very happy and lush dark green now..Thanks a million!!

The old saying goes, you can give a man a fish and feed him for one day, or you can teach a man to fish, and feed him for the rest of his life. That's what you are doing for people here. Please keep doing it. Even if you didn't though, you have provided enough info for people to find and learn with that I will probably never get to all of it. When you are doing something right, you are always going to have detractors UB. For my sake and the sake of the other growers on here, I hope you keep fighting the good fight. We need you...SNS https://www.rollitup.org/images/smilies/gc.gif


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## dlively11 (Mar 14, 2011)

UB posted on how to top a MJ plant........ impressive ...... Many give much more credit then is due I am sorry to say. This spinster has an ego like no other on this forum and arrogance to match.


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## smoke n strum (Mar 14, 2011)

dlively11 said:


> UB posted on how to top a MJ plant........ impressive ...... Many give much more credit then is due I am sorry to say. This spinster has an ego like no other on this forum and arrogance to match.


This forum is for sharing info to the marijuana growing community, not for venting your personal distaste for other members. it detracts from RUI and you when you continue this rant. I read all through the arguments you had with UB about that gravity and whatever the other shit is. I wouldn't ingest anything grown in that stuff personally simply because they won't tell you what their secret ingredients are(probably water). I am not trying to pick a fight with you. I am sure you are a great guy with good intentions, but when someone presents you with documented fact in an argument and you come back with name calling and no evidence"real evidence" to support your claims and refuse to face the truth, then it makes you look silly and childish. I for one am putting you on ignore, because you have had plenty of chance to cool down and you refuse to. I have no desire to hear or see anymore of your bratty little shithead way of talking to UB, a man whose coat you are not worthy to carry. sns


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## ndzbnln (Mar 15, 2011)

View attachment 1494708View attachment 1494707View attachment 1494706View attachment 1494705View attachment 1494704View attachment 1494703okay...heres my topped plant bubblelicious uncle ben your the manView attachment 1494702


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2011)

jwl said:


> He walked me through it,even if he didn't like my fox farm.-Said"I wouldn't pour that on my lawn" So what...I did.
> And I had mucho bud, Thank you very much UB. My lawn is dying,but so what! I think I know what You're talking about... And it's not lawns...Much respect,
> JWL
> 
> s Spot on


Funny. It may not have been your choice of FF I was not liking, it was probably the NPK of the product. Glad it worked out for you, sorry about the lawn. 



smoke n strum said:


> I am amazed at how consistent this method of topping is...I am getting 4 main colas on every one of these plants so far, even though they are all different looking genotypes,(i think thats the right term)which confirms what you just said in this post.


Yep. I posted one showing the beginning of 4 main colas (trunks) on the previous page, here is a shot of one of my crosses topped for 2 main colas. The green cotelydons can be seen below the first true node. The seedling should look exactly like this when you get thru if you're doing 2 main colas. If it doesn't, don't blame the car, blame "the nut behind the wheel."





> I also followed your lead and bought some Jack's Classic (straight from their website).. I bought three types of their nutes...acid special(i have very hard water), and the Dynamic Duo which you know what that is I know. I got the 1.5 lb tubs and with shipping it was around 30 bucks including UPS shipping, a far cry from the exorbitant prices many are paying for their nutes, adn so far my plants are responding in an amazing fashion.


Not bad. If you have access to an ag supply store, you can buy such quality products for as little as $1.00/lb. but you have to buy them in 25 lb. bags. Another one I like a lot is Plantex, a Canadian manufacturer. Again, very cheap, very complete, super pure/soluble. I dump about 15 lbs. in a 5 gal. bucket of water and drop a mazzei type injector tube in it to fertilize plant material along 5,500 of drip line. Of course that's thousands of gallons of mix. Never clogs my emitters and they are only 1/2 g/hr. Low output emitters will tend to clog before high output. 



> I don't kiss anyone's ass UB, but i do believe in giving credit where credit is due. It is a great service you are performing, doing your part to spread the word about how to grow our favorite plant, and doing it a sensible way, unlike some who would have you spending hundreds of dollars for inferior products that.. well I won't get into that again... ( I could not find the tit pics on AN's website...damn!!)


Yep, as you can see, I hurt a some people's feelings talking about their snake oils. Most appreciate my candor. In the end, doesn't matter what folks think of me. Haven't folded yet and never will. I jest keep pullin' dem Aces. 



> I also followed your advice about water...I received my tds meter last week and my tap water was 300 ppm. I went to the grocery store and bought some of the RO water from the vending machine there. It was $1.75 for 5 gallons and I am mixing that about 60/40 with my tap water run through a Brita filter for (before nutes) ppm of about 125. I am adding Jack's balanced 20-20-20 at 1/2 teaspoon per gallon every time I water and they look very happy and lush dark green now..Thanks a million!!


At 300 ppm, you're blessed. Seriously, you need not bother with the R/O drills or Brita, especially if you're using soil. My TDS is 700, with an EC and alkalinity rating thru the moon. Plants don't seem to mind. I do collect rain water whenever it rains, which hasn't been in about 3 months!  IOW, use your tap, and use rain water whenever you can. It's pure, has some N in the form of nitrates, has microbes, and a lower pH. BTW, a couple of times Danieslgb has stated he's using your Jack's 20-20-20 at a (high) rate of 1 tsp/quart and I about had a cat but it's working for him. His plants are very healthy and green. Depends on the amount of urea as I pointed out in the thread. https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/362515-well-here-goes-again-43.html



> The old saying goes, you can give a man a fish and feed him for one day, or you can teach a man to fish, and feed him for the rest of his life. That's what you are doing for people here.


Dat's right.

Good luck,
UB


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## dlively11 (Mar 15, 2011)

FYI you can get the same result and more consistant by simply taking a cutting off a plant already topped. Will start out with two colas or 3 or 4 and grow much more evenly and be consistant unlike this method shown here. No wasted veg time required. If you are growing from seed that is anther story of course.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2011)

dlively11 said:


> FYI you can get the same result and more consistant by simply taking a cutting off a plant already topped.


OK, so you have decided to troll my threads. No problem. You need to step up to the plate and give us a link..... with photos and explanations regarding the wonderful solutions you're spewing.

We'll be waiting with baited breath.

UB


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## The45King (Mar 16, 2011)

it works for me


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## dlively11 (Mar 16, 2011)

Oh I am not saying it cant or wont work but there are better/easier ways to get more consistant results if you are into cloning.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 16, 2011)

dlively11 said:


> It really isnt very complicated. You cut the top off a shoot on your plant leaving 2 ,3 or 4 shoots below it. Then you cut your clone below that leaving 2, 3 or 4 tops. Root them then plant them......


This is not a thread about cloning kid. The thread has been titled Uncle Ben's Topping Technique to get 2 or 4 MAIN colas. If you're lost perhaps someone can help you find your way.


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## medicine21 (Mar 16, 2011)

dlively11 said:


> You cut the top off a shoot on your plant leaving 2 ,3 or 4 shoots* below it*. Then you cut your clone *below that* leaving 2, 3 or 4 tops. Root them then plant them giving you a true two main cola plant that you dont have to hack right when the plant just starts growing well.


Personal issues aside, can you expand on this method? I am not sure I completely understand... When you say "below it" and "below that", what do you mean?

Are you saying, take a mother, make a big cutting with 5 nodes, then top the cutting so it has 3 nodes left and place it to root? I assume the lowest node is removed and placed in rooting medium. So you're left with a 2 node (above surface) topped clone that is waiting to root. Did I get that right?


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## bdonson (Mar 16, 2011)

K UB I give I got a box of AN Koolaid worth roughly ( worth, I mean cost me at least) $350 that is rapidly growing moldy for the most part. Got my Jacks Classic 2 part and some 30-10-10. Cost me under 30 bucks delivered. I've topped using your method twice both times with no discernable stress to the plant just like you said. This last variety however is a thai sativa that required me to tie the 4 mains down as well to control height. Looking forward to trying Jacks Bloom Booster. btw can you mix it with Bushmaster? Hahaha I funny.... anyway Cheers UB 
ps not trying to start a Advanced Nutrient shitstorm but it's not for me and my buckets of soil..


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## smoke n strum (Mar 16, 2011)

UB gets banned for arguing. Last time I come on this site. Later assholes, hyou just ruined this site for me nd many others ...fuckin losers


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## dlively11 (Mar 16, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> This is not a thread about cloning kid. The thread has been titled Uncle Ben's Topping Technique to get 2 or 4 MAIN colas. If you're lost perhaps someone can help you find your way.


Yes and the title is whats most amusing about your whole thread. This isnt "unclue Bens technique" at all. You are just posting up known and old school topping techniques and coming in here claiming them as yours. So since you are just posting up old tecniques I thought it would help the majority of readers to know there is a easier and more efficient way to achieve better more consistant results. Trying to actually help save these people time . Hypocritcal much Ben ? I am being down right nice and civil compared to all your rants in other threads.

Peace


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## dlively11 (Mar 16, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Personal issues aside, can you expand on this method? I am not sure I completely understand... When you say "below it" and "below that", what do you mean?
> 
> Are you saying, take a mother, make a big cutting with 5 nodes, then top the cutting so it has 3 nodes left and place it to root? I assume the lowest node is removed and placed in rooting medium. So you're left with a 2 node (above surface) topped clone that is waiting to root. Did I get that right?


I was referring to a mother plant correct. Take a branch and top it like the OP is topping these plants leaving however many nodes you want on your plant. Then make your cut where you would normally take for your clone. Then put it in your medium or cloner and voila you have a 2,3 or 4 tops on it. You dont have to veg your plant this way and hack off a bunch of veg growth. Its just more efficient and I also found the plants to be much more consistant at producing more even sized buds the the other method OP uses.


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## medicine21 (Mar 17, 2011)

smoke n strum said:


> UB gets banned for arguing. Last time I come on this site. Later assholes, hyou just ruined this site for me nd many others ...fuckin losers


For real? UB got banned?



dlively11 said:


> I was referring to a mother plant correct. Take a branch and top it like the OP is topping these plants leaving however many nodes you want on your plant. Then make your cut where you would normally take for your clone. Then put it in your medium or cloner and voila you have a 2,3 or 4 tops on it. You dont have to veg your plant this way and hack off a bunch of veg growth. Its just more efficient and I also found the plants to be much more consistant at producing more even sized buds the the other method OP uses.


Ok, thanks. I guess first you TOP the (clone target) branch on the mother and then you cut the clone. Makes sense to me.


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## djruiner (Mar 17, 2011)

dlively11 said:


> I was referring to a mother plant correct. Take a branch and top it like the OP is topping these plants leaving however many nodes you want on your plant. Then make your cut where you would normally take for your clone. Then put it in your medium or cloner and voila you have a 2,3 or 4 tops on it. You dont have to veg your plant this way and hack off a bunch of veg growth. Its just more efficient and I also found the plants to be much more consistant at producing more even sized buds the the other method OP uses.


lovely...your giving advice on a sticky'd thread made by the guy you participated in getting banned while saying the method in this thread is wrong....if the TOS guidelines say that insulting a person is worthy of banning someone...how are you not insulting every person that has followed this thread? according to the definition of the word id say yes...but im not power hungry nor get to pick and choose what i see as an insult and ban accordingly.


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## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

he asked to be banned. said he had invites to insult people at other sites. he's not mad, why is everybody else?


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## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

djruiner said:


> lovely...your giving advice on a sticky'd thread made by the guy you participated in getting banned while saying the method in this thread is wrong....if the TOS guidelines say that insulting a person is worthy of banning someone...how are you not insulting every person that has followed this thread? according to the definition of the word id say yes...but im not power hungry nor get to pick and choose what i see as an insult and ban accordingly.


can you even define "power hungry" in this particular situation? 

the dude stated his way was to insult. when politely asked not to he refused. where is the "hunger" part? what does that even mean?


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## The45King (Mar 17, 2011)

Ive learned tons of stuff from a couple of users on this site and have 
benefited greatly from it now these guys are gone its time 
to move on 
Like i really need this shit anyway
Thanks ub 
Peace
p.s never buy into the market when buying plant food its utter bullshit
its a plant for fuck sake


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> he asked to be banned. said he had invites to insult people at other sites. he's not mad, why is everybody else?


Never did I "ask" anything of the sort. You got pressured by a few members then threatened me with a ban, I said "fine", "you do what you have to do", and the next thing you know I'm banned....no PM's, no emails, no discussion.



> can you even define "power hungry" in this particular situation?


Damn straight, and so can my friends. 



djruiner said:


> lovely...your giving advice on a sticky'd thread made by the guy you participated in getting banned while saying the method in this thread is wrong....if the TOS guidelines say that insulting a person is worthy of banning someone...how are you not insulting every person that has followed this thread? according to the definition of the word id say yes...but im not power hungry nor get to pick and choose what i see as an insult and ban accordingly.


Thank you for your clear head. I don't know what's going on around here, I do know politics are at play and a mod is being used as a tool by a small group of members. I also know that you just don't do a knee jerk reaction and ban someone who has contributed so much to this site for "arguing and insulting" while others get a pass. That's being power hungry. I guess RIU or potroast caught what was going down because yesterday I was banned with the notice upon trying to log in - "banned=for insubordination", "ban lifted=never".

May all your gardens be real.

Peace, love and rock-n-roll,
Uncle Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2011)

bdonson said:


> K UB I give I got a box of AN Koolaid worth roughly ( worth, I mean cost me at least) $350 that is rapidly growing moldy for the most part.


Sorry to hear about another sad story regarding the use of products from one of the oil companys. Sounds like you've cut your losses and moved on. Good on ya!



> Got my Jacks Classic 2 part and some 30-10-10. Cost me under 30 bucks delivered.


Yep. I turned Bricktop on to the Blossom Booster many years ago and he's been singing my praises ever since lol. It's good stuff and a solid product whose market is general gardeners.



> I've topped using your method twice both times with no discernable stress to the plant just like you said.


Yeah, topping doesn't induce stress nor does it necessarily slow down plant growth UNLESS you were having vigor problems going in to the topping session. At my old age, I'm a topping mofo. Seriously, I'm gonna toot my horn. I understand hormonal responses and have topped and trained literally thousands of trees and other plant material to shape them into a profile I want. For example, just got through pruning peach trees and the last 4 days have been spent pruning grape vines which are coming out of dormancy.



The45King said:


> Ive learned tons of stuff from a couple of users on this site and have
> benefited greatly from it now these guys are gone its time
> to move on
> Like i really need this shit anyway
> ...


You're welcome, and good luck!

UB


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## smoke n strum (Mar 17, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Sorry to hear about another sad story regarding the use of products from one of the oil companys. Sounds like you've cut your losses and moved on. Good on ya!
> 
> Yep. I turned Bricktop on to the Blossom Booster many years ago and he's been singing my praises ever since lol. It's good stuff and a solid product whose market is general gardeners.
> 
> ...


This is a post I did in another forum. im out too this place bites. UB let me know wher you go please I gave illumination my email address:is it me, or are all the people that promote Jack's ferts disappearing from this site recently. You see, it's all about money people. The people on this site(the ones running it),are no better than exxon, microsoft, ge, or any other corporation. They want you to think its all about the movement to legalize it, but the truth is if that happened, they would be out of business. Think about it. The marijuana specific fertilizer manufacturers, or re-distributors, use these forums to promote their products. They have people planted in these forums. If you are a prominent member of these forums and you start talking about things that take money out of their pockets, like buying tested and true products like J. R. Peters fertilizers, (oh, forgot to mention the seed sellers, they suck too), they only have two choices, they can either recruit you to sell their products, or if you won't spread their lies to sell their over-priced, inferior, designer label garbage, they will use their planted salesmen to get you banned like they did to Uncle Ben last night. Yes it's true, the best gardener on this site was banned because he crusaded against the marijuana specific fertilizer manufacturers and their snake oils. This site is garbage just like AN, Fox Farms, Humboldt Nutrients and several other corporate opportunists. This will be my last post here. After a lengthy discussion with one of the moderators last night, I now realize I had also been duped into thinking this was a site that was uniting us mj legalization supporters. It's not... it is all about the money. Good


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2011)

smoke n strum said:


> This is a post I did in another forum. im out too this place bites. UB let me know wher you go please I gave illumination my email address:is it me, or are all the people that promote Jack's ferts disappearing from this site recently. You see, it's all about money people. The people on this site(the ones running it),are no better than exxon, microsoft, ge, or any other corporation. They want you to think its all about the movement to legalize it, but the truth is if that happened, they would be out of business. Think about it. The marijuana specific fertilizer manufacturers, or re-distributors, use these forums to promote their products. They have people planted in these forums. If you are a prominent member of these forums and you start talking about things that take money out of their pockets, like buying tested and true products like J. R. Peters fertilizers, (oh, forgot to mention the seed sellers, they suck too), they only have two choices, they can either recruit you to sell their products, or if you won't spread their lies to sell their over-priced, inferior, designer label garbage, they will use their planted salesmen to get you banned like they did to Uncle Ben last night. Yes it's true, the best gardener on this site was banned because he crusaded against the marijuana specific fertilizer manufacturers and their snake oils. This site is garbage just like AN, Fox Farms, Humboldt Nutrients and several other corporate opportunists. This will be my last post here. After a lengthy discussion with one of the moderators last night, I now realize I had also been duped into thinking this was a site that was uniting us mj legalization supporters. It's not... it is all about the money. Good


Couldn't have said it better!

Regarding RIU, I understand they have to pay the bills and I have no problem with their ads. Just another (off topic) thought about the dynamics of cannabis forums - in a nutshell you defined the dynamics perfectly well. Excellent post! I've been a part of admin at another site and posted to about 8 of them over 15 years or so. Each site has its own view of the world and its the mods' duties to enforce that mindset, to be thought police as well as trying to maintain order. That "thought" structure is based on the mindset of the community what I call The Herd. If The Herd is comprised primarily of eco wackos, then you best get rid of the guy that keeps preaching Monsanto products. If you're pushing the Oil companies, then you best get rid of the guy that is exposing them for what they are and offering other vendors like Jacks, Schultz, Miracle Gro or Dyna-Gro. It's all about politics, which rule the world and sub-cultures like cannabis forums. This isn't a democracy, it's a theocracy.

Heres hoping RIU can return itself to a fair and balanced website.

Jest my dos centavos,
UB


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## Ontheball (Mar 17, 2011)

I see u regulary still post to this thread if i send a photo of my biggest seedling would u mind point out if its toppable yet and were i should do it ? itll me 3 weeks in a few days


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## smoke n strum (Mar 17, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Couldn't have said it better!
> 
> Regarding RIU, I understand they have to pay the bills and I have no problem with their ads. Just another (off topic) thought about the dynamics of cannabis forums - in a nutshell you defined the dynamics perfectly well. Excellent post! I've been a part of admin at another site and posted to about 8 of them over 15 years or so. Each site has its own view of the world and its the mods' duties to enforce that mindset, to be thought police as well as trying to maintain order. That "thought" structure is based on the mindset of the community what I call The Herd. If The Herd is comprised primarily of eco wackos, then you best get rid of the guy that keeps preaching Monsanto products. If you're pushing the Oil companies, then you best get rid of the guy that is exposing them for what they are and offering other vendors like Jacks, Schultz, Miracle Gro or Dyna-Gro. It's all about politics, which rule the world and sub-cultures like cannabis forums. This isn't a democracy, it's a theocracy.
> 
> ...


Well said, Bill O'reilly, I mean UB, still watching out for the folks.


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## Danielsgb (Mar 17, 2011)

I use Jack's and I top like UB's thread. I also rant against the bullshit snake oil like AN. UB has helped me many times. 
Sound like somebody got their panties in a bunch & whined to a Mod. So many kids with no clue about Botany.
Daniels


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## interstellar (Mar 17, 2011)

Well, it worked great for me on all of my 9 plants. Here are some pics, 1 week flowering indica about 11" tall.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2011)

smoke n strum said:


> Well said, Bill O'reilly, I mean UB, still watching out for the folks.


CAUTION! You're entering THE no spin zone. (how did I do?)



interstellar said:


> Well, it worked great for me on all of my 9 plants. Here are some pics, 1 week flowering indica about 11" tall.


Great photos, nice looking, healthy green color.

View attachment 1498862

You got that right Danielsgb!

Good luck,
UB


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## thexception (Mar 17, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Couldn't have said it better!
> 
> Regarding RIU, I understand they have to pay the bills and I have no problem with their ads. Just another (off topic) thought about the dynamics of cannabis forums - in a nutshell you defined the dynamics perfectly well. Excellent post! I've been a part of admin at another site and posted to about 8 of them over 15 years or so. Each site has its own view of the world and its the mods' duties to enforce that mindset, to be thought police as well as trying to maintain order. That "thought" structure is based on the mindset of the community what I call The Herd. If The Herd is comprised primarily of eco wackos, then you best get rid of the guy that keeps preaching Monsanto products. If you're pushing the Oil companies, then you best get rid of the guy that is exposing them for what they are and offering other vendors like Jacks, Schultz, Miracle Gro or Dyna-Gro. It's all about politics, which rule the world and sub-cultures like cannabis forums. This isn't a democracy, it's a theocracy.
> 
> ...


I have come to ur thread several times, only today because I saw it under new posts & thought I would read the last page or so to see what was new. WOWZA, banning, all this crap, what a waste of time, energy, & bullshit. Keep on keeping on. Keep expressing your opinions, u & everyone else. WTF is wrong w/people these days to let words, get under their skin & cry to "momma & pappa mods". WTF, don't people believe in & understand the basics of freedom of speech? Well UB if u ever got permanently banned from this site then it would obviously be a waste of time for anybody...to contribute for months/years, become PART of the community, only to be what left in the cold? Let's hope this really NEVER comes to fruit, otherwise I would as well be OUTTA here. Someone who contributes nothing to the site & is only vulgar & abusive, etc. banning them is one thing, or someone that likes nothing better to do then constantly create drama, again fine, boot them. But simply speaking out about ur likes/dislikes when it comes to ANYTHING mj growing related....ummm isnt that the REAL reason this site/forum exists? YES IT IS!!!!! Peace UB


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## smoke n strum (Mar 17, 2011)

i gotta go find all the crap i wrote last night and delete it. seems things have been made right. apologize to anyone who was offended by my ranting. oh well


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## dlively11 (Mar 17, 2011)

Ben went off again basically daring them to ban him ... he got banned again ....... Bans can and usually are temporary for those that dont know.


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## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

dlively11 said:


> Ben went off again basically daring them to ban him ... he got banned again ....... Bans can and usually are temporary for those that dont know.


i could have sworn he said he had invites to "better sites" anyways. why would he want to come back? 

until he changes his attitude and learns to follow the rules, i'll keep banning him. there seems to be another mod who feels i'm wrong yet doesn't have the ability to address anyone about it. at least i'm out here trying to work this out.

ben is welcome here, as long as he can STOP attacking and insulting people. it's pretty basic stuff.


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

Sounds like the "you can't fire me cause I quite" argument. He wants to be here oh so bad. These forums are his life. Many of us would want him here if he could just lose the negativity. Unfortunately, I don't think it's going to happen. He's convinced that the "herd" is out to get him. I, for one, have stopped even posting on threads that he's a part of. I don't enjoy being called names. I don't enjoy being a part of a thread that is 80% argument and 20% real productive discussion. Any way you cut it, he poisens threads. All you have to do is look at all of the threads he's posted in. Once he posts, the whole thing goes to hell. I truly hope some day he can come back with a new and improved attitude. But, I know that's a fairytale.

Sorry you have to be dragged through this grade school crap. Whatever you decide to do I, for one, support you and RIU 100%.


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## thexception (Mar 17, 2011)

r u for real? I have not read, nor will I waste my time reading what u two say r insults & attacks on other people, it is simple as this, go to ur damn profile & choose to IGNORE HIM. u collective gardener say u have stopped posting in his threads, then WHY the hell r u posting here? to me the grade school crap is the 2 posts above me, plain & simple. This is a site for ADULTS. Why should one have to be "cordial" all the time? The fact is while some people may be offended by him, many others enjoy his posts, admire him, etc. and the PROOF is the over THREE HUNDRED & THIRTY THOUSANDS VIEW this post alone has had. Again, no matter WHOM is the person, others view as offensive, etc. & so on, AGAIN, that person or persons can CHOOSE to IGNORE another person & be done with it. When people CHOOSE not to utilize that feature, and instead complain about a person, in posts etc. & tell people how they should act to be part of this community or be banned then THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE causing the drama....and I think the majority of members on RIU would agree with that 100%, & this is the last I am going to voice MY OPINION about this nonsense, TYVM. So let's move on & back to the subject at hand shall we....


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## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

thexception said:


> r u for real? I have not read, nor will I waste my time reading what u two say r insults & attacks on other people, it is simple as this, go to ur damn profile & choose to IGNORE HIM. u collective gardener say u have stopped posting in his threads, then WHY the hell r u posting here? to me the grade school crap is the 2 posts above me, plain & simple. This is a site for ADULTS. Why should one have to be "cordial" all the time? The fact is while some people may be offended by him, many others enjoy his posts, admire him, etc. and the PROOF is the over THREE HUNDRED & THIRTY THOUSANDS VIEW this post alone has had. Again, no matter WHOM is the person, others view as offensive, etc. & so on, AGAIN, that person or persons can CHOOSE to IGNORE another person & be done with it. When people CHOOSE not to utilize that feature, and instead complain about a person, in posts etc. & tell people how they should act to be part of this community or be banned then THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE causing the drama....and I think the majority of members on RIU would agree with that 100%, & this is the last I am going to voice MY OPINION about this nonsense, TYVM. So let's move on & back to the subject at hand shall we....


it is up to the member to post respectfully. as per the terms of use. there really is no debate. if you can't post without insulting people you aren't welcome here.

people are being offended. they are reporting the posts to me. as a MOD i am addressing said posts. as a MOD i see a member who has repeatedly caused ripples and REFUSES to stop, even after being asked politely. he insists on "being who he is" and has stated numerous times that he will not stop offending people, that he is here to prove his "methods". this is NOT the type of member we want.


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## smoke n strum (Mar 17, 2011)

thexception said:


> r u for real? I have not read, nor will I waste my time reading what u two say r insults & attacks on other people, it is simple as this, go to ur damn profile & choose to IGNORE HIM. u collective gardener say u have stopped posting in his threads, then WHY the hell r u posting here? to me the grade school crap is the 2 posts above me, plain & simple. This is a site for ADULTS. Why should one have to be "cordial" all the time? The fact is while some people may be offended by him, many others enjoy his posts, admire him, etc. and the PROOF is the over THREE HUNDRED & THIRTY THOUSANDS VIEW this post alone has had. Again, no matter WHOM is the person, others view as offensive, etc. & so on, AGAIN, that person or persons can CHOOSE to IGNORE another person & be done with it. When people CHOOSE not to utilize that feature, and instead complain about a person, in posts etc. & tell people how they should act to be part of this community or be banned then THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE causing the drama....and I think the majority of members on RIU would agree with that 100%, & this is the last I am going to voice MY OPINION about this nonsense, TYVM. So let's move on & back to the subject at hand shall we....


Thank you, you have stated this very well, the hypocrisy of these guys is absolutely unbelievable. sns


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## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

smoke n strum said:


> Thank you, you have stated this very well, the hypocrisy of these guys is absolutely unbelievable. sns


i thought you apologized. now you're jumping back in?

this is a marijuana grow site.


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## smoke n strum (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> i thought you apologized. now you're jumping back in?
> 
> this is a marijuana grow site.


well, you banned him again, the reason I apologized is because i thought you recanted the ban. Is it ok for me to express my opinion? this is Ben's thread right? I am his friend.


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## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

smoke n strum said:


> well, you banned him again, the reason I apologized is because i thought you recanted the ban. Is it ok for me to express my opinion? this is Ben's thread right? I am his friend.


no, last night when we spoke you apologized. you agreed with me to an extent and even said ben is a little rough some times. i told you if ben could just chill a little he would be welcome here. you said you were going to bed and would read my reply in the morning. since you were cool last night, and apologized, i let it all go. now you came back with this today. even after you apologize in this thread. 


i'll say it again, .... "if Ben can stop being so hard on people this will all end".

he refuses. it's on Ben.


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## smoke n strum (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> no, last night when we spoke you apologized. you agreed with me to an extent and even said ben is a little rough some times. i told you if ben could just chill a little he would be welcome here. you said you were going to bed and would read my reply in the morning. since you were cool last night, and apologized, i let it all go. now you came back with this today. even after you apologize in this thread.
> 
> 
> i'll say it again, .... "if Ben can stop being so hard on people this will all end".
> ...


look i cant win an argument with you, you have all the power and i have none. i did not agree with you. I said ben is a no-nonsense guy and told you about how this thread was being attacked. I apologized for calling you names in anger and losing my temper.


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## thexception (Mar 17, 2011)

that he is here to prove his "methods". this is NOT the type of member we want. this is a marijuana grow site. 

EXACTLY, and why should he have to appeal to some people with "said attitude", he is here to prove his methods, this is a marijuana grow site, that is what he is doing. and this is not the type of member WHO wants, who exactly, how many people. u want to poll this out & let the voice of the community REALLY be heard? For every person who has complained there is another person or two, three, or five, that would support UB. That is the reality. So when you say that is not the type of member we want, the we here suggests the forum & members at large, & I think that statement is false by FAR. Now if you want to state that is not the type of members the mods & owners want, then please clarify that. Because this part of "we" ...meaning ME totally is in disagreement. 

"""i'll say it again, .... "if Ben can stop being so hard on people this will all end".

he refuses. it's on Ben.""""

Sorry, again IMO this whole thing is ridiculous, and again if someone like THIS gets banned, then it is obvious this site is not about the good of the membership at large, but only for a select group; no matter how u spin it, THAT is what the truth will be & "we" the members will know it. I totally HATE HATE HATE DRAMA, so I am unsubscribing from this thread for awhile, & hopefully in a few days, I will come back to find, the intent of this site, talking about GROWING MJ, thank you & I bid u all adieu.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

thexception said:


> that he is here to prove his "methods". this is NOT the type of member we want. this is a marijuana grow site.
> 
> EXACTLY, and why should he have to appeal to some people with "said attitude", he is here to prove his methods, this is a marijuana grow site, that is what he is doing. and this is not the type of member WHO wants, who exactly, how many people. u want to poll this out & let the voice of the community REALLY be heard? For every person who has complained there is another person or two, three, or five, that would support UB. That is the reality. So when you say that is not the type of member we want, the we here suggests the forum & members at large, & I think that statement is false by FAR. Now if you want to state that is not the type of members the mods & owners want, then please clarify that. Because this part of "we" ...meaning ME totally is in disagreement.
> 
> ...



i don't understand what you don't understand. 

attacking and insulting fellow members is against the RULES. 

there really is no argument. don't break the rules and there won't be a problem.

as a SITE, we do not allow members to treat each other this way. i don't know how else to explain it.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

i can't stand listening to grown adults cry.

i'll let him back, but i got my eye on him.

infractions will be given when necessary. 

if anyone has any further problems with any members here, simply report the post.

if someone offends you and you lash back you are equally guilty. i don't have time to read thru 200 pots to find out "who started it". 

thank you all for appreciating what this site and staff have to offer.


----------



## Serapis (Mar 17, 2011)

regardless of his contributions, his tone is awful. He talks down to nearly everybody, and his most recent posts are mostly insults... Yes, he is a VERY experienced grower and he offers a lot to the site, but you can't expect them to make exceptions and look the other way and then ask EVERYONE but UB to follow the rules.... I'm very abrasive at times myself. I've suffered through two bans. I did a lot of thinking on the second ban, and I've had to adjust my style of writing, to make sure it's not misinterpreted. I'm still working on it, but it's been awhile since I've had any serious run ins or name calling episodes. I've learned to say my peace nicely, and walk away. It's time UB do the same.



thexception said:


> that he is here to prove his "methods". this is NOT the type of member we want. this is a marijuana grow site.
> 
> EXACTLY, and why should he have to appeal to some people with "said attitude", he is here to prove his methods, this is a marijuana grow site, that is what he is doing. and this is not the type of member WHO wants, who exactly, how many people. u want to poll this out & let the voice of the community REALLY be heard? For every person who has complained there is another person or two, three, or five, that would support UB. That is the reality. So when you say that is not the type of member we want, the we here suggests the forum & members at large, & I think that statement is false by FAR. Now if you want to state that is not the type of members the mods & owners want, then please clarify that. Because this part of "we" ...meaning ME totally is in disagreement.
> 
> ...


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

Serapis said:


> regardless of his contributions, his tone is awful. He talks down to nearly everybody, and his most recent posts are mostly insults... Yes, he is a VERY experienced grower and he offers a lot to the site, but you can't expect them to make exceptions and look the other way and then ask EVERYONE but UB to follow the rules.... I'm very abrasive at times myself. I've suffered through two bans. I did a lot of thinking on the second ban, and I've had to adjust my style of writing, to make sure it's not misinterpreted. I'm still working on it, but it's been awhile since I've had any serious run ins or name calling episodes. I've learned to say my peace nicely, and walk away. It's time UB do the same.



i have noticed your change. not only is it appreciate, but you come across as a much more likable person now as well. without even thinking about it, i keep gaining more and more respect for you. i used to see your avatar and cringe, now i actually read what you post. 

thank you, my friend. 


i often pop off myself. i try to be the first to correct myself. sometimes a reminder helps. 


now i have to go defend the Homefront, against the KPA.


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## taint (Mar 17, 2011)

History repeats itself endlessly,learning to play nice is a hard thing to do.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2011)

What is all this crap, and why is mod favoritism being played out? Potroast would not behave in such a way, he's a stand up guy. Guys like dlively come into my thread and insult me but get a pass. WTF?

Enuff. Let's get back on topic, and that includes you FDD. Do your job, and take out the noise, and I don't mean selectively either. Pretty please with sugar on top.

Thanks,
UB


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## Serapis (Mar 17, 2011)

It can be... One thing I've learned is to not sit down to RIU if I am am angry, upset or agitated... It helps a lot to be in a good frame of mind when answering repetitive questions. 



taint said:


> History repeats itself endlessly,learning to play nice is a hard thing to do.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> What is all this crap, and why is mod favoritism being played out? Potroast would not behave in such a way, he's a stand up guy. Guys like dlively come into my thread and insult me but get a pass. WTF?
> 
> Enuff. Let's get back on topic, and that includes you FDD. Do your job, and take out the noise, and I don't mean selectively either. Pretty please with sugar on top.
> 
> ...


i respond to reported posts.

that's how all this started. 

who is potroast? other then just another MOD, volunteering his time. like me. apparently he has his "favorites". 

i would NEVER doubt, let alone reverse, the decisions of another mod. it goes against mod ethics. IMO

i respond to reported posts. if you attack someone because they attacked you then you may end up getting the attention. it is best to not reply to the attacks. report and ignore them and we won't have to have issues like this.


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## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> What is all this crap, and why is mod favoritism being played out? Potroast would not behave in such a way, he's a stand up guy. Guys like dlively come into my thread and insult me but get a pass. WTF?
> 
> Enuff. Let's get back on topic, and that includes you FDD. Do your job, and take out the noise, and I don't mean selectively either. Pretty please with sugar on top.
> 
> ...


did you approach potroast for help with dlively?

if not, why not?
if so, why is there still a problem?



what can i do as a mod to help you all stop treating each other so ugly like? it has become a big problem lately. i am here to try to make this place as ENJOYABLE as possible. i am always open to valid input.


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## taint (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> did you approach potroast for help with dlively?
> 
> if not, why not?
> if so, why is there still a problem?
> ...


 A hash forum,pie and prolly some brownies would werk for me....................ty.


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## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

taint said:


> A hash forum,pie and prolly some brownies would werk for me....................ty.



i've been asking for a hash forum for 3 years now.


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## Serapis (Mar 17, 2011)

Do what was done to me.... More than likely if you have to infract someone in one post, they are having trouble in others as well. It seems some people's attitude isn't just with one person, but many. Chances are they have at least 2 infractions waiting for them, and that will give them time to think, like it did me.

It's unfortunate how as humans, we are nice to people we meet in person, but treat each other like shit online. Does the lack of face to face contact online really make us reach out and attack one another? People need to realize that there is more than one way of doing something. They shouldn't feel offended if someone points out another way, or a better way, in their opinion. If you disagree, say so, but keep it polite and lose the names and labels...



fdd2blk said:


> did you approach potroast for help with dlively?
> 
> if not, why not?
> if so, why is there still a problem?
> ...


----------



## taint (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> i've been asking for a hash forum for 3 years now.


So...........................take a big hit of hash and hold my breath,gotcha.


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## wyteberrywidow (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> did you approach potroast for help with dlively?
> 
> if not, why not?
> if so, why is there still a problem?
> ...


 Okay big guy got ya


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> did you approach potroast for help with dlively?


Of course not, I'm not that petty plus you're supposed to be watching. Soon found out where that was going. Dlively is not important to me. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, it's just what I've learned along life's path - there are some people that are important to you like your father, mother, son, pastor, etc. and there are some that are not.



> what can i do as a mod to help you all stop treating each other so ugly like? it has become a big problem lately. i am here to try to make this place as ENJOYABLE as possible. i am always open to valid input.


Valid input? Right, like minutes ago giving me an infraction because I won't bow down to you? Fdd, you're digging youself a hole, you're abusing your mod powers, and karma is gonna play out on you.

NOW fuckin' NOW, can we get back on topic and/or at least split the noise out to the appropriate forum? I shouldn't have to be telling how to do your job fdd!

UB


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## riddleme (Mar 17, 2011)

In the once famous words of another member here,,,,,,,,, IT'S ALL BULLSHIT


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## Serapis (Mar 17, 2011)

Wow, what an ungrateful person...... I don't see this one lasting long  

Since when do you get off telling a mod how to police the forums?



Uncle Ben said:


> Of course not, I'm not that petty plus you're watching. Soon found out where that was going. Dlively is not important to me. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, it's just what I've learned along life's path - there are some people that are important to you like your father, mother, son, pastor, etc. and there are some that are not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Of course not, I'm not that petty plus you're watching. Soon found out where that was going. Dlively is not important to me. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, it's just what I've learned along life's path - there are some people that are important to you like your father, mother, son, pastor, etc. and there are some that are not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i dropped my ax and came at you sincerely and this is the way you reply? 

proves A LOT.

that infraction was given to you before you were unbanned. 

once again, i am here to make things ENJOYABLE. is there anything i can help you with to achieve that?


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

Serapis said:


> Wow, what an ungrateful person...... I don't see this one lasting long
> 
> Since when do you get off telling a mod how to police the forums?


potroast lets him, it's all cool. 



POWER HUNGRY MY ASS, more like sick of the drama.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2011)

Serapis said:


> Wow, what an ungrateful person...... I don't see this one lasting long
> 
> Since when do you get off telling a mod how to police the forums?


Based on your sideways anger that you always express every time you smell an Uncle Ben gangbang ramping up, you're not welcome in my thread. Keep your negative comments to yourself or stay on topic. This thread is about my topping technique. Get with the program.

Regards,
UB


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## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

i doubt you make it thru the week.


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## Serapis (Mar 17, 2011)

Last time I looked it was a public forum... I'm not being negative at all.... I'm positive you won't last the week...

and it isn't "Your" topping technique. The art of topping has been practiced for centuries.... the fact that you call it yours boggle the mind...

Have a great day...



Uncle Ben said:


> Based on your sideways anger that you always express every time you smell an Uncle Ben gangbang ramping up, you're not welcome in my thread. Keep your negative comments to yourself or stay on topic. This thread is about my topping technique. Get with the program.
> 
> Regards,
> UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> once again, i am here to make things ENJOYABLE. is there anything i can help you with to achieve that?


I'll take a double double all the way, no maters, mustard AND mayo with cheese on a toasted sesame bun..... fries on the side. Modelo Especial to wash it all down por favor. And since I won't be here next week, make it snappy. 

UB


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## Lt. Dan (Mar 17, 2011)

Bait and Troll..................... bait and troll

My first post in this thread................... woot!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2011)

riddleme said:


> In the once famous words of another member here,,,,,,,,, IT'S ALL BULLSHIT


Yep, it's gettin' deep. I happen to have some extra waders if you need 'em.


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## VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO (Mar 17, 2011)

so, what is a true node? lol


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2011)

Lt. Dan said:


> My first post in this thread................... woot!


Are you a wooter? I am. In fact just pulled the trigger on this gourmet cheese. Yowzer! http://wine.woot.com/ Without fail, I click on woot.com for their specials every day, which don't last long FWIW.

UB


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## Serapis (Mar 17, 2011)

Back on topic; Topping..... Here is an interesting article about prunning and topping that was posted on the internet in 2006, 3 years before this original thread was created. The author never mentions or gives credit to any specific person, it's just a technique that has been used for ages... It doesn't belong to any one person in particular. Perhaps a better subject line would be, Proper way to prune for 2-4 colas BY UB..... Cause the way it reads now is kinda like back slapping one's self...

Here is a great read from 2006 on pruning for higher yields and topping for colas... Enjoy... 

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=153306&f=221

Sorry, forgot the link


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2011)

VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO said:


> so, what is a true node? lol


It's the one that's not false.


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## Snow Crash (Mar 17, 2011)

Lt. Dan said:


> Bait and Troll..................... bait and troll
> 
> My first post in this thread................... woot!


LOL. Me too Lt. Dan.

I decided to start a thread in Toke'n'talk regarding the banning, unbanning, banning and unbanning of UB. I think in an effort to keep Cannabis growing discussion on topic (and to prevent confusion and scaring away new members with name calling and drama) we should try to keep this conversation on topping and training.

Here's the link. 
https://www.rollitup.org/toke-n-talk/417640-banning-unbanning-then-banning-then.html#post5463754
I'm going to try and be impartial. I've had UB on ignore since day 1 here so I don't have much of an opinion on the guy himself. Conduct of him and the moderators here I do have an opinion on though and I think it makes for a heated discussion amongst people who have more in common with each other than *WEED* admit.


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## VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO (Mar 17, 2011)

I've hadUB on ignore since day 1 here so I don't have much of an opinion on the guy himself.

yeah right, yet you troll threads about him and start threads about him, another mancrush


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## The45King (Mar 17, 2011)

Keep it on top ic


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2011)

The45King said:


> Keep it on topic


Just a note about the abuse of certain plant foods, forum paradigms - https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/158144-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-bloom-20.html#post5463963


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## Snow Crash (Mar 17, 2011)

VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO said:


> I've hadUB on ignore since day 1 here so I don't have much of an opinion on the guy himself.
> 
> yeah right, yet you troll threads about him and start threads about him, another mancrush


Oh goody, is someone trolling me? Goody goody!

I suppose if you could support your trolling with some evidence that I'd ever quoted or directly discussed something with the dude past a first meeting... but you can't, you won't, and it don't matter.

I topped my plants after the third node. Can I call _that_: Snow Crash's Topping Technique? Is that okay with everyone? No? Oh well... Doing it anyway.


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## VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO (Mar 17, 2011)

Snow Crash said:


> Oh goody, is someone trolling me? Goody goody!
> 
> I suppose if you could support your trolling with some evidence that I'd ever quoted or directly discussed something with the dude past a first meeting... but you can't, you won't, and it don't matter.
> 
> I topped my plants after the third node. Can I call _that_: Snow Crash's Topping Technique? Is that okay with everyone? No? Oh well... Doing it anyway.


total drama queen, You can call it whatever you want, I learned more from UB about growing and nothing from you except you secretly have a mancrush on him


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## Dr Gruber (Mar 17, 2011)

Seems something odd is going on around here. I pM'ed FDd about a new member making false accusations against me and never had a response back from him. I just wanted to know what he or I could do about it...nothing big. I wasnt asking for a ban or anything. Not a word back for him...now i am left to assume he does play favorites. How can this Dlivley or whatever his name is get away with his name calling and shit stirring??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## Snow Crash (Mar 17, 2011)

VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO said:


> total drama queen, You can call it whatever you want, I learned more from UB about growing and nothing from you except you secretly have a mancrush on him


 

I guess we know what Victory Garden Hydro in Santa Ana, CA is selling... Bye-bye now.


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## djruiner (Mar 17, 2011)

Snow Crash said:


> View attachment 1499507
> 
> I guess we know what Victory Garden Hydro in Santa Ana, CA is selling... Bye-bye now.





VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO said:


> you send me this threat"Assuming you're the owner of this backwater hydro store I know where to find you... Unfortunately you can't find me. Or the guy that's about to firebomb your business. Sucks to be you, smart guy picked a fight with the wrong person"
> 
> what a pussy, come get me you little bitch.


*wonders if these personal attacks and insults will be over looked and/or not ever reported......just depends on who is doing the attacking and insulting i guess


----------



## Serapis (Mar 17, 2011)

It's like a cheap motel and someone turned the lights off.... 

They came right outta the wood work...


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## VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO (Mar 17, 2011)

djruiner said:


> *wonders if these personal attacks and insults will be over looked and/or not ever reported......just depends on who is doing the attacking and insulting i guess


Am I suppose to let this guy outright threaten my business and life and not respond?


----------



## Serapis (Mar 17, 2011)

You report it. Didn't FDD just say that like 5-6 pages ago?

EDIT Actually, it was just a page ago....



VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO said:


> Am I suppose to let this guy outright threaten my business and life and not respond?


----------



## djruiner (Mar 17, 2011)

Snow Crash said:


> View attachment 1499507
> 
> I guess we know what Victory Garden Hydro in Santa Ana, CA is selling... Bye-bye now.





VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO said:


> you send me this threat"Assuming you're the owner of this backwater hydro store I know where to find you... Unfortunately you can't find me. Or the guy that's about to firebomb your business. Sucks to be you, smart guy picked a fight with the wrong person"
> 
> what a pussy, come get me you little bitch.





VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO said:


> Am I suppose to let this guy outright threaten my business and life and not respond?


i honestly have no problem with it..im an adult and can handle things that are said here...even if its not PC...but thats not the point.like ive said many times i think they should do away with the "mommy he hit me" report button and let the owner of the thread handle the content since our mods are "using their freetime handling all the reported comments" why not give the thread owner control over what they see as insults and not let seemingly one person decide for the whole site...this is basic stuff here...we are adults..we can handle it

on a side note..the only time ive used the report post thing was for people doing massive spam..or stated they was underage and participating in illegal activity...never over someone getting butthurt over being proved wrong


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## Serapis (Mar 17, 2011)

Obviously, that is not the case 



djruiner said:


> ......we are adults..we can handle it


----------



## smoke n strum (Mar 17, 2011)

View attachment 1499541 what do I do now?


----------



## djruiner (Mar 17, 2011)

Serapis said:


> Obviously, that is not the case


we could handle and control it..if we was given the option to.


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## Serapis (Mar 17, 2011)

Isn't that two plants in the same grow bag?



smoke n strum said:


> View attachment 1499541 what do I do now?


----------



## djruiner (Mar 17, 2011)

smoke n strum said:


> View attachment 1499541 what do I do now?


cant really see what happened...and is that basil?


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## smoke n strum (Mar 17, 2011)

djruiner said:


> cant really see what happened...and is that basil?


 it was a little joke, obviously a very little joke. They're tomatoes.


----------



## smoke n strum (Mar 17, 2011)

just trying to lighten things up a little... ummm.. nobody is laughing


----------



## dlively11 (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> i could have sworn he said he had invites to "better sites" anyways. why would he want to come back?
> 
> until he changes his attitude and learns to follow the rules, i'll keep banning him. there seems to be another mod who feels i'm wrong yet doesn't have the ability to address anyone about it. at least i'm out here trying to work this out.
> 
> ben is welcome here, as long as he can STOP attacking and insulting people. it's pretty basic stuff.


I couldnt agree more. What many people do not know is that Ben is in FACT being extremely abusive in threads outside his own. Abrasive is an understatement. He flat out calls people all kinds of names and constantly insults their inteligence with very snide remarks. To top it off he does this on topics where he has ZERO first hand experience with a certain product or method. He loves the drama. I think that is half of why he comes in this forum. He could make a civil comment and move on but he doesnt. He gets right to name calling and tries to instigate nasty arguments. He is somewhat civil in his own thread atleast but I have seen him be very mean to new people who are just asking simple questions as well. I would like to hear what he has to say at times but he just cant refrain from calling names and attacking if he doesnt agree with you.


I for one publicly apologized for how I reacted to UB. Too bad he doesnt seem able to do the same.


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## dlively11 (Mar 17, 2011)

Big group hug , Move on, treat each other with respect, use this forum for what is is made for, that being the exchange of growing information not proving people wrong and trash talking .


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

I second the group hug. Now, get in here Uncle Ben an hug it out. Negro Modelo's are on me.


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## Serapis (Mar 17, 2011)

I got my tomatoes in the other day, Better Bush, beefsteaks and some other type. Tons of peppers... Salsa party in 65-75 days 



smoke n strum said:


> just trying to lighten things up a little... ummm.. nobody is laughing


----------



## riddleme (Mar 17, 2011)

Just hugs, no kisses ??? LOL


----------



## Serapis (Mar 17, 2011)

No kisses, remember what that led to last time? 



riddleme said:


> Just hugs, no kisses ??? LOL


----------



## smoke n strum (Mar 17, 2011)

Serapis said:


> I got my tomatoes in the other day, Better Bush, beefsteaks and some other type. Tons of peppers... Salsa party in 65-75 days


I use the smart pots because the soil here sucks. I have early girls and celebrities...the only strains I can get in fast enough. 4 kinds of peppers, california wonders, cayenne, santiago chilis, and portugal something, also basil, thyme, oregano, parsley, cilantro, taragon, cantelope, watermelon, cucumbers, and pot.


----------



## Winter Woman (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks, UB, it worked for me! My one friend who grows is so jealous. 'How'd you do that?', he asked I just looked at him and said, 'I'm not telling' lol. 

Nah, not really by the end of the night I showed him how.


----------



## xebeche (Mar 17, 2011)

Well, as to the REAL topic of this thread: personally, I found it informative and have tried it a few times since reading it, with pretty good success so far. Is it a "novel" technique introduced by UB? Maybe, maybe not...I haven't yet seen an alternative (and earlier) citation wherein the author describes where (and when) to top a cannabis plant to get two or four main colas - although it wouldn't surprise me to hear that it's been described elsewhere. Fact is, I read it here first...and probably wouldn't have found it somewhere else on my own. 

In the past, when I've topped my plants, I've occasionally ended up with plants that had four main colas after topping...but I'd also sometimes get two main colas on others. IOW, I was just topping at random nodes (and usually earlier than recommended by UB in this thread). A few weeks ago I tried UB's technique on a few young (maybe 4-5 week old) ladies I've been preparing for my next grow [Oh, and I do think it's fair to call it "UB's technique" because that's exactly what it is...he described the technique he uses when topping a plant in order to get two or four main colas - just like the title of the thread says]. 

Anyways, this is a fem Cali-O topped just above the 2nd true node. This one had two branches that were significantly larger than the ones just below, so I tied down the two larger wings to let the other two smaller ones catch up. The four tops are at about the same level with this LST...although it now has a pretty rectangular footprint, as you can see from the top view. Still, pretty much what I was aiming for.




Similar results with this White Rhino...which displays more even growth for all four new stems, and a more compact footprint (and so didn't need to be tied down).



As a bonus, I rooted the severed tops and got two solid, healthy clones with nice thick stems. As I said, I've always topped much earlier in the past, so the clones I'd get from rooting the cuttings never had stems that were this meaty before. This was probably the first time that I waited until the plant had five or six true nodes before I topped it. Kinda tough to chop off so much foliage from the mother plants, but they both recovered nicely, and I do like the looks of these clones.



While my understanding is that some strains produce better yields with a four-cola arrangement than others, these two seem to be responding predictably up to this point. Of course, for the ultimate test I'd probably want to grow out each of these plants (preferably with a control plant that isn't topped...and maybe also one topped for two colas) and see what kind of yields I got with the different number of tops, but my objective in this case was simply to see if I could get four main stems from which I can take four meaty cuttings from each mother plant a little later on for my next grow. Eight just happens to be the perfect number of plants for my flowering cab. So far, it looks like UB's technique is exactly what I was looking for.

So... thanks Uncle Ben!


----------



## xebeche (Mar 17, 2011)

Here's another strain I'm trying UB's technique on. I have three Neville's Haze Hybrids in solo cups...they're about four weeks old. I topped all three just above the second node, and stuck the tops in rapid rooter plugs. I have two more of the same strain that aren't quite as big as these three, so I'll wait for another week or so before I top them as well. Maybe I'll even come back here in ten days or so and update on the status of these plants (and the cuttings)...if the thread hasn't been wiped out by the mods by that time, lol


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## Serapis (Mar 17, 2011)

I have all that too.. I forgot to mention my one gallon herb containers... The melon mound was finished up yesterday. Strawberries, onions and red potatoes go in next week.



smoke n strum said:


> I use the smart pots because the soil here sucks. I have early girls and celebrities...the only strains I can get in fast enough. 4 kinds of peppers, california wonders, cayenne, santiago chilis, and portugal something, also basil, thyme, oregano, parsley, cilantro, taragon, cantelope, watermelon, cucumbers, and pot.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2011)

xebeche said:


> Well, as to the REAL topic of this thread: personally, I found it informative and have tried it a few times since reading it, with pretty good success so far. Is it a "novel" technique introduced by UB? Maybe, maybe not...I haven't yet seen an alternative (and earlier) citation wherein the author describes where (and when) to top a cannabis plant to get two or four main colas - although it wouldn't surprise me to hear that it's been described elsewhere. Fact is, I read it here first...and probably wouldn't have found it somewhere else on my own.
> 
> In the past, when I've topped my plants, I've occasionally ended up with plants that had four main colas after topping...but I'd also sometimes get two main colas on others. IOW, I was just topping at random nodes (and usually earlier than recommended by UB in this thread). A few weeks ago I tried UB's technique on a few young (maybe 4-5 week old) ladies I've been preparing for my next grow [Oh, and I do think it's fair to call it "UB's technique" because that's exactly what it is...he described the technique he uses when topping a plant in order to get two or four main colas - just like the title of the thread says].
> 
> ...


A true RIU testimony, thanks for sharing! May your 4 colas be bigguns. 

Have fun,
Tio Bendejo


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 18, 2011)

Someone needs to start a veggie gardening thread outside of this one. That's another hobbie I'm passionate about. Yesterday I about wrapped up my spring planting. As of yesterday I have in - asparagus (new permanent bed), spinach, 5 types of lettuce, Mirai corn (THE best), tomatoes, peppers, red, russet and Yukon potatoes, bulbing onions, shallots, gourmet garlic, radishes, kohlrabi, carrots, cilantro, fennel, Contender bush beans and Kiowa blackberries. Left to plant - cukes, pole beans, cantaloupe, melons squash.

I guess fdd is still playing his petty little games, like he has with Bricktop and so many other nice folks. Looks like he unpinned this thread. RIU reversed fdd's infraction against me, recommend he strip him of his mod authority, which he is clearly abusing. 

Speaking of BT, anyone heard from him?

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 18, 2011)

xebeche said:


> Here's another strain I'm trying UB's technique on. I have three Neville's Haze Hybrids in solo cups...they're about four weeks old. I topped all three just above the second node, and stuck the tops in rapid rooter plugs. I have two more of the same strain that aren't quite as big as these three, so I'll wait for another week or so before I top them as well. Maybe I'll even come back here in ten days or so and update on the status of these plants (and the cuttings)...if the thread hasn't been wiped out by the mods by that time, lol
> 
> View attachment 1499910View attachment 1499911View attachment 1499912View attachment 1499913View attachment 1499914View attachment 1499915


Nice job and just a recommendation. When you upcan, bury the "trunk" as deep as you can. The Haze is gonna be leggie, but the quality very rewarding. I even strip the lower petioles off cannabis (and tomatoes) so I can go real deep. Your vigor and yields will greatly increase because of the increased root mass, and in the end, that's all that matters in this game - having the most amount of healthy foliage and roots you can muster.

Good luck,
UB


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## Serapis (Mar 18, 2011)

Sorry for being off topic, but I have yet to plant my mound stuff either. Cukes, melons and squash. I'm also doing late season strawberries. I think I'll start up a veggie garden thread in the appropriate spot and maybe we all can follow each others veggie grows.  

Peace



Uncle Ben said:


> Someone needs to start a veggie gardening thread outside of this one. That's another hobbie I'm passionate about. Yesterday I about wrapped up my spring planting. As of yesterday I have in - asparagus (new permanent bed), spinach, 5 types of lettuce, Mirai corn (THE best), tomatoes, peppers, red, russet and Yukon potatoes, bulbing onions, shallots, gourmet garlic, radishes, kohlrabi, carrots, cilantro, fennel, Contender bush beans and Kiowa blackberries. Left to plant - cukes, pole beans, cantaloupe, melons.
> 
> I guess fdd is still playing his petty little games, like he has with Bricktop and so many other nice folks. Looks like he unpinned this thread. RIU reversed fdd's infraction against me, recommend he strip him of his mod authority, which he is clearly abusing.
> 
> ...


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 18, 2011)

Serapis said:


> Cukes, melons and squash. I'm also doing late season strawberries. I think I'll start up a veggie garden thread in the appropriate spot and maybe we all can follow each others veggie grows.
> 
> Peace


That would be cool. I'd like to see thread as a RIU collective gardener's hangout as opposed "my garden" thread. I've been gardening for decades and will be most happy to offer my tweaks, tips, and suggestions. FWIW, the okra gets so stout I have to literally wrap a chain around the plants and pull them out with my tractor's bucket, tomatoes finish at 7' tall by 5' wide in 5' tall 36" diameter cages. All in raised beds heavy in compost, etc........

Give us a link please.


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## Dr Gruber (Mar 18, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice job and just a recommendation. When you upcan, bury the "trunk" as deep as you can. The Haze is gonna be leggie, but the quality very rewarding. I even strip the lower petioles off cannabis (and tomatoes) so I can go real deep. Your vigor and yields will greatly increase because of the increased root mass, and in the end, that's all that matters in this game - having the most amount of healthy foliage and roots you can muster.
> 
> Good luck,
> UB


Do you recommend that for all strains or just the more leggy variety?


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## buddhalover425 (Mar 18, 2011)

i have 75 plants...i experimented with UB topping on about 10 plants 2 months ago when i started vegging.now i am in the flowering process and the ladies look great. this topping method did give me 4 huge colas and a whole bunch of baby colas around it due to pinching tops off when they were younger.i been reading this forum for a while now.and just recently joined due to reading UB's postings.i learned a great knowledge from you . that i put to the test myself and i can tell your one smart dude that actually KNOWS what your talkin about with facts to back it up...i have pictures if anyone would like to see then i will upload them..oh and this is a great forum!


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## smoke n strum (Mar 18, 2011)

Serapis said:


> Sorry for being off topic, but I have yet to plant my mound stuff either. Cukes, melons and squash. I'm also doing late season strawberries. I think I'll start up a veggie garden thread in the appropriate spot and maybe we all can follow each others veggie grows.
> 
> Peace


 That's a good idea Serapis, be sure and let us know where and when. I planted 6 asparagus root sets last year. Do you guys know if they need flooding in the spring? It hasn't rained here in months. So far one piece of asparagus, but it got big enough after one year..that's pretty good I hear.


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## Cory&Sam (Mar 18, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy!
> 
> Based on quite a few questions about topping I've received here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a-12.html I decided to reproduce a thread on my favorite topping method published at cann.com about 10 years ago. Even though I've got much better photos from many latter grows both indoor and outdoor, I'm gonna stick with the old photos from the original thread. Lighting is HPS from start to finish with the exception of using 4' long shop fluors from germ until about 2 weeks. Some pix were taken outdoors for better resolution thanks to an old camcorder I was using.
> *
> ...


 the pic of the plants leftover stems looks like charlie browns christmas tree!


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## drekoushranada (Mar 18, 2011)

So when do you top a rooted clone to get 4 main colas? It it the same process as the donor plant or do you have to count the nodes from a different spot? Bc I dont want any mother plants in my system.


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## buddhalover425 (Mar 18, 2011)

i did it when they were clones also...i waited like a wee into veg.i wish i would of did it earlier maybe when they were in the red cups because you basically cut most the plant off, cuttting from the 2nd node. so it too longer to catch up to their already big sisters


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## drekoushranada (Mar 18, 2011)

buddhalover425 said:


> i did it when they were clones also...i waited like a wee into veg.i wish i would of did it earlier maybe when they were in the red cups because you basically cut most the plant off, cuttting from the 2nd node. so it too longer to catch up to their already big sisters


Thanks for the info. Why did you wish you had done it earlier?


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## xebeche (Mar 18, 2011)

Thanks again, UB. I do the same thing with my tomatoes, but they're always outside and in much larger pots. With my cannabis growing, currently I'm kinda restricted as to how large a pot I can use (or, more importantly, how large a plant I have the space to grow). I've been experimenting with smaller pots/larger numbers of plants lately (sog syle), since I have limited growing space and a desire to try out many (probably TOO many) different strains. But I HAVE been considering going back to scrog-type growing with one or two plants...in which case I could use bigger pots and will definitely bury that trunk as deep as I can get it. I'd really like to try a scrog on this NHH strain. Three out of the five are looking really strong and will be upcanned from these Solo cups very soon. Supposed to be some really good smoke (from what I've read)...so if I could eventually grow one of these with a trunk nearly as thick as that of my average (container-grown) outdoor tomato plant, I think I'd be a happy man, lol. Just gotta find the space for it.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 18, 2011)

xebeche said:


> Thanks again, UB. I do the same thing with my tomatoes, but they're always outside and in much larger pots. With my cannabis growing, currently I'm kinda restricted as to how large a pot I can use (or, more importantly, how large a plant I have the space to grow). I've been experimenting with smaller pots/larger numbers of plants lately (sog syle), since I have limited growing space and a desire to try out many (probably TOO many) different strains. But I HAVE been considering going back to scrog-type growing with one or two plants...in which case I could use bigger pots and will definitely bury that trunk as deep as I can get it. I'd really like to try a scrog on this NHH strain. Three out of the five are looking really strong and will be upcanned from these Solo cups very soon. Supposed to be some really good smoke (from what I've read)...so if I could eventually grow one of these with a trunk nearly as thick as that of my average (container-grown) outdoor tomato plant, I think I'd be a happy man, lol. Just gotta find the space for it.


I hear ya. You plan your grow and grow out your plan.

Good luck,
UB


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## GanjaLove<3 (Mar 18, 2011)

Growing 2 plants each in a 5 gallon bucket. Was wondering if it would be quicker to just top to get 2 colas each, or is it more worth the wait to top for 4 main colas ? First time with the topping, all my previous grows I just let the plant go or did a little bit of LST. I figure 16 main colas compared to 8, sounds worth it to me.


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## jzs147 (Mar 18, 2011)

i topped a lot sooner after i seen the second node i took the 3rd out dunno if this is 2 soon i only done one plat to see how it goes.


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## ozgirl (Mar 19, 2011)

Uncle ben, I just wanted to say thanks so much for this thread. I now understand how to top for my needs, and most importantly why and how it all works. Im new to growing, and have read so much info, but nothing I have read or seen about topping has explained the topic so well.

I didn't read the whole thread, didn't need to. And I noticed someone mentioning a great thread you have on germination, im gonna do my best to find it, but if you could point me in the right direction that might help


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## The45King (Mar 19, 2011)

Here's the 1 i topped at 14 days and flowered at 19 
it was the last feminised seed i had so didnt care for it much but 
am happy with the result now
n1 ub


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## Burger Boss (Mar 19, 2011)

dlively11 said:


> I was referring to a mother plant correct. Take a branch and top it like the OP is topping these plants leaving however many nodes you want on your plant. Then make your cut where you would normally take for your clone. Then put it in your medium or cloner and voila you have a 2,3 or 4 tops on it. You dont have to veg your plant this way and hack off a bunch of veg growth. Its just more efficient and I also found the plants to be much more consistant at producing more even sized buds the the other method OP uses.


I would suggest that rather than bashing the OP, you start your own thread. There, you can "debunk" the UB method, and "promote" your own. Then the "market forces" kick in and the "superior/best" method wins.
Seems simple enough to me...............BB


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## dlively11 (Mar 19, 2011)

Burger Boss said:


> I would suggest that rather than bashing the OP, you start your own thread. There, you can "debunk" the UB method, and "promote" your own. Then the "market forces" kick in and the "superior/best" method wins.
> Seems simple enough to me...............BB


LOL just when the dust settled. First and foremost this isnt "uncle Bens Technique" but rather UB's thread. No disrespect towards UB but this technique was discovered long before . Would be like me posting a thread on how to do a SCROG, doesnt make it my technique. He posted it up for everyone to see and that was helpful for a lot of people so kudos to him. I did actually post very relevent info for a lot of growers reading this thread . Its saves a lot of time and does give little more consisant results IMO. Cut them the way you want them before they even have roots = no wasted veg time. Just a different approach that might work better for some people. However you get your results it is pretty cool technique. 

I will add though that it doesnt increase the yield 2X or 4X like you might think or hope. I get better yields per plant ,nowhere near 2X or 4X the yield but the plants do take up 2X or 4X the space. Just an observation but I still play with it.

Peace


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## potroast (Mar 19, 2011)

Just for your information, if you want us to start a thread about SCROG, the OP and I could give you some original information, because Uncle Ben and I were part of the group that named it SCROG, a takeoff on the SOG that was all the rage back then.

Show some respect for those that know more than you, and you will always be learning.


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## GanjaLove<3 (Mar 19, 2011)

The45King said:


> Here's the 1 i topped at 14 days and flowered at 19
> it was the last feminised seed i had so didnt care for it much but
> am happy with the result now
> n1 ubView attachment 1502515


How much longer did you veg after topping ?


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## drekoushranada (Mar 19, 2011)

GanjaLove<3 said:


> How much longer did you veg after topping ?


Dude you just read my mind with that question.


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## Burger Boss (Mar 19, 2011)

potroast said:


> Just for your information, if you want us to start a thread about SCROG, the OP and I could give you some original information, because Uncle Ben and I were part of the group that named it SCROG, a takeoff on the SOG that was all the rage back then.
> 
> Show some respect for those that know more than you, and you will always be learning.


WTG Pot, that's what I call giving someone, some _perspective!_
It would be pretty damned hard to challenge the co-originator of a tried and true grow method!
Wishing for ALL......Good luck & good grow.......BB


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## The45King (Mar 19, 2011)

i topped it at 14 days and flowered at 19 so the answer is 5 days veg after topping
I am gonna veg for a few weeks after topping next time 
but very happy with how things run this time
peace


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## Burger Boss (Mar 19, 2011)

*Uncle Ben!:** "Haven't folded yet and never will. I jest keep pullin' dem Aces.




"

Do I detect a poker player here???? Possibly an online player?
If so, please PM me, cuz POKER is my #2 major passion!.......BB
*


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## The45King (Mar 19, 2011)

Must admit weed and poker 
what a mix haha cant play without it


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## Burger Boss (Mar 19, 2011)

smoke n strum said:


> Hello frogster, Yeah, i have started taking pics and am thinking about starting a journal soon. I can't Bogart UB's thread anymore... sorry about that UB..got a little carried away there. I am a little worried about security having a grow going.. this is the first time I have spent any time on one of these sites, so i am nervous about being found out. Cultivation laws are pretty harsh. I don't know much about internet security. Thanks for the shout out Frogster... and UB keep on growin...sns


Hi sns, It isn't my intention to belittle ANYONE'S security concern's, but I notice you have been in this forum for about a month now. You might want to check out some "join date's" in here, I'm coming up on year 4 now and haven't been too stingy with my name or location. I'm thinking that a scenario with law enforcement pouring over the membership of the MANY grow forums out there would be fodder for a crappy sitcom and not much more.
It's YOUR ass, and for sure, protect it, but I think you can pretty much relax in here.
Good luck & good grow.......BB

BTW, that IS me in the avatar, some would say foolish, but I say unconcernd.


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## smoke n strum (Mar 19, 2011)

I really appreciate that my friend, I worry too much, but I guess I've gotten enough rides in the back seats of black and whites now that I'm a little over cautious. I must be doing ok, because the last time was in the 70s. Plus weed makes me paranoid..lol...You saying that helps and I'm not joking. Thank you.
 sns.


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## potroast (Mar 19, 2011)

Burger Boss said:


> WTG Pot, that's what I call giving someone, some _perspective!_
> It would be pretty damned hard to challenge the co-originator of a tried and true grow method!
> Wishing for ALL......Good luck & good grow.......BB



Thanks for that. Yeah, when we were with that group Ben and I also helped with the theory and testing of the so-called Lucas formula using GH Flora nutes. It was several other members who came up with it, and I helped test it, along with many others. Lucas was a young guy who was paying attention, but was not involved. He took it and put it on several forums, and it's been known as the Lucas formula ever since.

When you've been helping others as long as Ben and I have, it only natural for us to get a little crusty.


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## Mai Thot (Mar 19, 2011)

I am not sure how you prune your plant to get four main colas but when I look at your pic for two main colas, it looks like the "skeleton" of a plant you show it looks just like mine and I also get four or as many main colas as I want - each getting a bit smaller as I go above the four. I have found four to be the best for me. I still finish in just a little longer than I would have had I not pruned the plant. I just pinch at the fourth node and when the two new shoots get long enough to pinch again at the fifth, I pinch them both, giving me my four colas and much greater yields, and much less trim time. Did I just say the same thing you did? Or is there yet another way to get to the four?


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## smoke n strum (Mar 19, 2011)

Mai Thot said:


> I am not sure how you prune your plant to get four main colas but when I look at your pic for two main colas, it looks like the "skeleton" of a plant you show it looks just like mine and I also get four or as many main colas as I want - each getting a bit smaller as I go above the four. I have found four to be the best for me. I still finish in just a little longer than I would have had I not pruned the plant. I just pinch at the fourth node and when the two new shoots get long enough to pinch again at the fifth, I pinch them both, giving me my four colas and much greater yields, and much less trim time. Did I just say the same thing you did? Or is there yet another way to get to the four?


Mai, it is all explained very clearly on the first page of this thread. I have followed this method and it works. Yes everyone, even me knew how to top. UB just shows us how to do it right. Thanks UB


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## Mai Thot (Mar 19, 2011)

BB: I can only think you have not gotten busted before. After a few, it starts to increase your paranoia. Oh yeah, paranoia is being afraid for no good reason. I've got a few reasons but none relating to pot cultivation. Now, the chief of police and his wife, the chief of the fire department (just think of all the government dollars accumulated there!) live right across the street from me. Should I worry or would that just be paranoid? I put a false back wall on my garage and my room is 6' X 24'. I painted the entire garage white and put a piece of removable sheet rock over the door to my room so it looks from the street like the old back. I just shut the door to the garage (tuck-under type) when it is time to work. Thank God for the two evergreens growing right in the line of site from my new neighbors. It allows me to leave the garage door open - as if I am just like any of my neighbors, hanging out in front of the garage for a smoke.
I seldom worry about anyone coming over from the neighborhood because every election I have conservative republican signs in my yard. I belong to the Rep party as a delegate and I also have an office in my basement as an accountant which has an added benefit of covering for the small bit of traffic I get. For the last ten or so years, I merely grow one time a year and create a year's worth of smoke for me and some friends. I should be done for this year in a few months after which I use my two 800 watt lights to lay under in the winter to cure the blues. The lights along with a little space heater makes it like summer again - and, where I live, that season is only about two and a half months, at best.


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## smoke n strum (Mar 19, 2011)

wow, Mai, id be paranoid (ok not paranoid, just plain scared)as shit.Take it back...id move. lol. sns


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## Burger Boss (Mar 19, 2011)

Well my oh my, Mai, LOL, I do see your problem....I sure wouldn't want "double Badges" staring at ME from across the street, a bit more heat than I care for. 
Most sadly, I have been a guest of "several" Greybar Hotels.
First in 1959, when I was 20 and a bigger A-hole than I am now. Last time was in 1992, when I had the distinct privilege of spending 17 months in San Quentin and Folsom for growing 5 plants in a garage in Amador county, CA. To explain my cavalier attitude is easy; after the defeat of prop 19, I acquired a 99 plant 215 ticket.
I have room for maybe 20/24 if I really shoehorned. I'm in a senior mobile home park, and my neighbors have known about my growing habits for years. I'm 72 now, in a city that laid off 70 police officers last fall.
So, as you can see, my anxiety level is pretty damned low these days.
Good luck & good grow.......BB


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## Mai Thot (Mar 19, 2011)

SNS: Sorry I seem so dense, but I have learned to grow with no help since the early 1970's, when I got back from Vietnam. I didn't know where to get help without putting myself out on front street, so I just bumbled along until about five years ago when I discovered seed sites on the computer. I still can barely grow cuttings. Most die on me from the cuting getting mushy and just quits growing. I quit using the gel as that seemed to be the worst.
Being a conservative doesn't leave me with many leftist friends or growers who I could talk to about the subject - other than family - most of whom are also conservative. We do not see growing plants for personal use as a problem. I have an added problem of Hep C and Neuropathy and if I can get relief in any way, its my business, I figure, as long as I hurt no one else.
As for the four node thing. I went back and re read the first page as suggested and I still do not understand why you grow the plant to six nodes and then cut it off above the second node? I just cannot understand why you wouldn't cut the second node when the third node shows? I think it should probably not get pinched until the fourth node but you tell me if I am doing it wrong, or just differently. My plants have the same appearance as UB with one node pinched and another two pinched to double up again. My colas are all about the same height so they all seem to get the light evenly - although I also use two 800 watt lights which covers the plants entirely anyway. I only grow six to eight plants a year for my health - both physical and mental.
If you could just tell me why you would grow it out to 5 or 6 nodes and then go back and cut it at the second, I would greatly appreciate it. Hopefully, my questions will seem more thoughtful as I go. I thank you in advance for any energy you expend on my behalf.


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## Mai Thot (Mar 19, 2011)

Maybe the tremor that has started in my hands is due to something other than the Neuropathy? (literally, frayed nerve endings sending shots of pain all over my body.) Copuld be from the new neighbors - who I greeted to the new neighborhood first and since they had a baby this winter and we had 80" of snow, I used my snowblower to clean out their drive for them. I do that for a few neighbors who had no machine to help with the snow. My friends and I bet where the next pain will arise and the (winner(s)) get the next hit on my Hot Shot vaporizer using kief instead of bud. It is fun to see my friends expressions as they begin to wonder if they'll live through the hit or not. Of course they will but they do wonder for a second.
Believe me, I'd like to move from here but isn't living in CA awfully expensive? Homes seem to start at a mil for a house I wouldn't even have in my state. Our walls are three times thicker and insulated. But I lived in LA for about two years and another three in the Tenderloin in SF. I am a Marine who went to boot camp at MCRD San Diego and got stationed in Tustin at a little base we called LTA meaning lighter than air, as it was a helicopter and Harrier base. Got busted for the first time in Santa Ana for pot possession when I got out of the corps. Twenty of us bought five pounds to take home for personal use so the judge just sent us home, without the pot, of course. I doubt this state will pass the law before I die so I am in a bit of a quandary since my wife hates CA for some reason. Eathquakes and fires seem worse than cold and snow to her, I guess. WE would take a beating on the house trade as I do tax work and when someone comes here from there, they can usually buy a house outright when they get here and still have five figures to play with as a capital gain but still way ahead, financially anyway. I could sell my paid off home here and still owe $500,000 on it in CA.
The big joke to me is that my docs happily give me 500 10mg methadone pills and 120 percs a month for the last 15 years, when I would happily use only the pot, if I could grow my own each year.


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## djruiner (Mar 19, 2011)

> f you could just tell me why you would grow it out to 5 or 6 nodes and then go back and cut it at the second


that isnt completely needed..just helps to have a stronger plant and a nice developed root system.ive noticed the longer i wait before topping the faster the new growth starts to fill in...saves me about a weeks worth of veg time before switching it to flower


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## sso (Mar 19, 2011)

hmm, dunno, that seems strainrelated, im not much for topping, but i accidentally topped a young sativa the other day.
it had 3 nodes (apart from the sunleaves) and i flipped off the top while i was bending it bit.
well, it didnt stop growing, grew very quickly into 4 tops.

the reason for this, was it allready had budsites (well, future budsites(or potential tops))
And the distance between each internode was so small that the upper budsites didnt get priority over the lower.

now, if i waited longer, my experience with topping tells me, that by then the distance between nodes would be such that 2 tops would automatically get priority and leaving you with 2 tops.

the only cases where ive seen different, was with a naturally bushy plant (denser more indica plants )where about 4 of the lower budsites had grown to about an equal height.
and being about 5-6 nodes (or so, wasnt really counting, might have been more) and where if you cut off the (quite alot larger) top, these budsites would automatically grow into 4 nicely spaced tops.

but, you´d be sacrificing quite some time with cutting that top off (though it makes a nice clone) and need to spend some time in veg to grow those lower budsites to proper size (bigger tops, bigger buds)

whereas with lst, you´d keep that big top and end up with 3 slightly smaller tops (almost the same height and size) along with it (or however many you want)
in less time, but with more work (Which i understand was ub´s objection to this)

i would think, topping later for bushy females, topping earlier for plants that have allready lower budsites (as some plants grow to some height without growing anything but the top and fanleaves, the lower budsites appearing maybe in 2-3rd week, making the internodal distance too much to get anything but 2 tops with topping (unless you topped more than once or used lst along with it(topping for 2 tops i find absolutely pointless though and really topping for 4 unless you veg them out properly before flowering)

and lst or scrog or straight up for the plants that develope lower budsites later (3rd group i mentioned)


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## dlively11 (Mar 20, 2011)

Burger Boss said:


> WTG Pot, that's what I call giving someone, some _perspective!_
> It would be pretty damned hard to challenge the co-originator of a tried and true grow method!
> Wishing for ALL......Good luck & good grow.......BB


 
Yes but you both missed the point I made ... oh well carry on ...


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## Burger Boss (Mar 20, 2011)

dlively11 said:


> Yes but you both missed the point I made ... oh well carry on ...


LOL, I can only speak for myself, but as a "registered old folk", petty points are often wasted on me.
And "carry on"; I shall..........wishing YOU, Good luck & good grow.......BB


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## dlively11 (Mar 20, 2011)

Burger Boss said:


> LOL, I can only speak for myself, but as a "registered old folk", petty points are often wasted on me.
> And "carry on"; I shall..........wishing YOU, Good luck & good grow.......BB


Petty ? Sorry was not petty. The point I was making was that UB did not invent this topping technique at all. Maybe he helped come up with the term "SCROG" but that method , or variations of, have also been done long before. The point was it would be like me picking any previously discovered technique and claiming it as my own which it would not be. 
Just wanted to clear that up  

I will give credit where credit is due and the fact is UB posted this info up on this message board so many folks out there know how to do this now. I think that is great. He clearly knows how to grow very well and deserves props for this thread. 

Also I cant beleive you got actual prison time in Ca for growing a few plants, that is crazy .... Sorry to hear that. Times are very differnt now then they used to be. My mom grew a bunch of plants in our backyard once when I was a kid in the 70s and is was scary. Very differnt then now. Hell now you can get State Farm to insure your crop


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## Lt. Dan (Mar 20, 2011)

dlively11 said:


> Petty ? Sorry was not petty. The point I was making was that UB did not invent this topping technique at all. Maybe he helped come up with the term "SCROG" but that method , or variations of, have also been done long before. The point was it would be like me picking any previously discovered technique and claiming it as my own which it would not be.
> Just wanted to clear that up


Did he say he invented the topping technique? (a friend asks me, "how does UB top his plants?", I respond, "UB's technique goes like this")
If you (dlively11) choose a method of doing something, isn't that your technique for doing it?...........dlively11's technique ?
UB man crush, maybe you do! or maybe it's just petty?
Cheers,


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 20, 2011)

I did invent this topping technique. If you can prove otherwise, then do so, or shut the fuck up dlively. You're just being a petty little prick.

To whom it might concern, if you have nothing to contribute but FUD, then spin your bullshit elsewhere, not in my thread.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 20, 2011)

Burger Boss said:


> *Uncle Ben!:** "Haven't folded yet and never will. I jest keep pullin' dem Aces.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man, I haven't played a poker hand in a coon's age. But, give me 4 of a kind, a couple of hits of gold, Herredura over the rocks, Pink Floyd and we will revisit the good ol days!

Tio Bendejo


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## Serapis (Mar 20, 2011)

People have been topping plants for ages.... like tomatoes... please don't say you invented it... I've shone you other publications printed way before this thread was even published by you. The fact that you would claim such a technique is beyond me. Cultivation was discovered thousands of years ago, many thousands of years ago. To claim that no one has accidentally broken a top and discovered two or more topiary stems as a result is a rather large stretch of the imagination. Hell, I see threads ALL the time where people break the main stem and panic....

I noticed a very long time ago that when I prune my roses back, I get new growth and more tips.... I thought it was neat, but I hardly thought I invented or discovered it. It was merely a natural response to my actions...

And you really shouldn't be telling people to STFU. Many people consider those fighting words, at least down here in the south that would get you a nasty response....



Uncle Ben said:


> I did invent this topping technique. If you can prove otherwise, then do so, or shut the fuck up dlively. You're just being a petty little prick.
> 
> To whom it might concern, if you have nothing to contribute but FUD, then spin your bullshit elsewhere, not in my thread.
> 
> UB


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## Serapis (Mar 20, 2011)

Uh, yes he did in fact claim that he invented it..... He claims that no one else has ever discovered topping until he publicized it.



Lt. Dan said:


> Did he say he invented the topping technique? (a friend asks me, "how does UB top his plants?", I respond, "UB's technique goes like this")
> If you (dlively11) choose a method of doing something, isn't that your technique for doing it?...........dlively11's technique ?
> UB man crush, maybe you do! or maybe it's just petty?
> Cheers,


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## Serapis (Mar 20, 2011)

Some botany knowledge.... Sunflowers are one of the plants that benefit from topping. By cutting off a wilted, spent head, you can encourage multiple sunflower heads to grow from a single stem!. This information was written in a book called The complete Garden Flower Book by Katie Ziller; and was published about 12 years before this thread was even written by UB....


Let's not even mention the Farmer's Almanac, with it's ancient wisdom....


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## Lt. Dan (Mar 20, 2011)

Serapis said:


> Uh, yes he did in fact claim that he invented it..... He claims that no one else has ever discovered topping until he publicized it.


YOU, talking to ME! 
Just a second,.............
FUD = *Fear, Uncertainty, and Disinformation
*Petty =1. Of little importance; trivial.2. (of behavior) Characterized by an undue concern for trivial matters, esp. in a small-minded or spiteful way. 
Ok, I'm up to speed now*!
Now, what were you saying? 
Cheers,

*


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## collective gardener (Mar 20, 2011)

C'mon, UB. Are you really claiming you invented a standard 4 branch top? Tell us you're just screwing around so you don't lose credibility.


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## Serapis (Mar 20, 2011)

Here is an article from Dear Jorge dated in 1999....

View attachment 1505762

The illustration clearly shows topping to produce a 4 main stem plant. Did Jorge steal this discovery from you? Hell, he doesn't even claim ownership, he is just passing along an old technique....


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## Life Goes On (Mar 20, 2011)

Alright people WTF! Seriously! Who cares if he invented 4 branch topping or not! This thread is not about that so let it go. If you want to bash UB because you think he did or didn't invent 4 branch topping start a thread for that and don't post that garbage here! I can see this site forum has many fat, lazy slobs that have nothing better to do than sit on their fat pimply asses and spit box over the Internet! Grow the fuck up and mind your own business because *NO ONE* values your opinion so keep it to yourselves!

 I never understood the point of arguing over the Internet. What does it solve? Typically both parties are too much of pussies to do anything so you exchange a few meaningless words that piss each-other off but both parties still go on living daily life with nothing changed so tell me what is the point? 

Now that I think about it I guess I answered my own question. The point behind the Internet arguments is the simple fact both parties know there will be no face to face confrontation! I can only think of one word right now. *VAGINA!*


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## Serapis (Mar 20, 2011)

This is the perfect place to discuss it, because it is relevant to the thread.

Here is a picture taken from Jorge Cervantes Grow Bible printed in 2001....

View attachment 1505798

It clearly demos a two cola and a four cola topping. page 250 for anyone interested.

And Life goes on, read the tone of your post. It is hateful, full of vile and anger and is of use to no one. The author of this thread has made claims that he invented a technique. Many people have reservations and doubts about that claim, and this is the place to discuss it... There is no sense having threads about threads...



Life Goes On said:


> Alright people WTF! Seriously! Who cares if he invented 4 branch topping or not! This thread is not about that so let it go. If you want to bash UB because you think he did or didn't invent 4 branch topping start a thread for that and don't post that garbage here! I can see this site forum has many fat, lazy slobs that have nothing better to do than sit on their fat pimply asses and spit box over the Internet! Grow the fuck up and mind your own business because *NO ONE* values your opinion so keep it to yourselves!
> 
> I never understood the point of arguing over the Internet. What does it solve? Typically both parties are too much of pussies to do anything so you exchange a few meaningless words that piss each-other off but both parties still go on living daily life with nothing changed so tell me what is the point?
> 
> Now that I think about it I guess I answered my own question. The point behind the Internet arguments is the simple fact both parties know there will be no face to face confrontation! I can only think of one word right now. *VAGINA!*


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## Serapis (Mar 20, 2011)

Page 252....

"If we prune the stem, it will split into two. We can prune both
these two new stems and end up with four stems. We may try to prune
each of these four stems to try and create eight stems, but this depends
on the strain and its branching limit which is genetically based. We
may be able to prune some of the lateral branches but again if the plant
has reached it threshold it will not produce more new branches. All
strains are different in this respect."

this was written and published 9 years before this thread was created..... you decide....


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## dlively11 (Mar 20, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> I did invent this topping technique. If you can prove otherwise, then do so, or shut the fuck up dlively. You're just being a petty little prick.
> 
> To whom it might concern, if you have nothing to contribute but FUD, then spin your bullshit elsewhere, not in my thread.
> 
> UB


LOL there is the good old Unclue Ben we have all grown to love  Wow you kept your mouth in the holster for an entire day, must have been downright painful for you . I was respectful and on topic in all my recent posts in this thread and you respond with grade school name calling ? THIS is why you were banned. You just can't act like an adult in here. 

Well I had tried "your" technique long before you ever made this cute thread of yours taking all credit for it. I guess it is my technique then eh ? You are so arrogant you really beleive you invented this style of topping a plant ? Hey I just discovered dipping chocolate into peanut butter, I'll call it dlively11's peanut butter cups .... Why dont YOU prove you invented this if you seriously want everyone to beleive this. Wait looks like others have already clearly proven it for me. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, get over yourself , your not that special. Stealing age old techinques and relabling them as yours is, well, sad. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself I guess.


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## dlively11 (Mar 20, 2011)

Serapis said:


> Page 252....
> 
> "If we prune the stem, it will split into two. We can prune both
> these two new stems and end up with four stems. We may try to prune
> ...


 
LOL , noooo say it aint soooooo ........


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## Life Goes On (Mar 20, 2011)

Serapis said:


> This is the perfect place to discuss it, because it is relevant to the thread.
> 
> Here is a picture taken from Jorge Cervantes Grow Bible printed in 2001....
> 
> ...


First off I'll admit it. Yeah my response IS hateful and full of anger for the simple fact there are simple minded retards such as yourself out there that just can't let things go! and continue to argue (Over the net) about something that absolutely *DOES NOT MATTER!* Is it going to make you a better gardener if UB admits he didn't invent the technique? *NO!* So who cares if he invented it or not like I said! Whoever is so concerned about UB's claims then discuss it elsewhere. This thread is for people who don't care if he invented it or not they just enjoy the fact that the information is out there for them to use and improve their gardening skills. So go ahead and waste your time by posting your Jorge Cervantes information as we ignore it! Because your not going to get a response from myself or UB or anyone anymore on your subject because it is irrelevant to the educational factors of this thread!


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## dlively11 (Mar 20, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> First off I'll admit it. Yeah my response IS hateful and full of anger for the simple fact there are simple minded retards such as yourself out there that just can't let things go! and continue to argue (Over the net) about something that absolutely *DOES NOT MATTER!* Is it going to make you a better gardener if UB admits he didn't invent the technique? *NO!* So who cares if he invented it or not like I said! Whoever is so concerned about UB's claims then discuss it elsewhere. This thread is for people who don't care if he invented it or not they just enjoy the fact that the information is out there for them to use and improve their gardening skills. So go ahead and waste your time by posting your Jorge Cervantes information as we ignore it! Because your not going to get a response from myself or UB or anyone anymore on your subject because it is irrelevant to the educational factors of this thread!


It matter because it completly destroys any and all credibilty UB has. He had to have known it was an established technique and knowingly claimed it as his own. He quoates old grow books like they were the bible so I dont beleive it was an honest mistake and he really thought he came up with this.There is a term for that and it is called lying ......... Hell I was giving him credit for atleast sharing this knowledge but not after the way he is acting now.


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## Serapis (Mar 20, 2011)

It's not irrlevant to the thread as the claim that he is the one that discovered it is part of this thread.... A little tip for you, since you are fairly new here...... you agreed to abide by some rules when you joined, namely, no name calling, threats, insults, etc.... If you have something to say, act like an adult and say it. When you start of calling people retarded, idiots, etc., you are going to be reported and may earn infractions, which can lead to a ban.

You are right, you have the ability to ignore my posts. If they anger you so much, I suggest you visit my profile and place me on your ignore list. I'll continue to post proof that topping existed long before this thread did, as long as the author continues to maintain credit.

Thanks for understanding....



Life Goes On said:


> First off I'll admit it. Yeah my response IS hateful and full of anger for the simple fact there are simple minded retards such as yourself out there that just can't let things go! and continue to argue (Over the net) about something that absolutely *DOES NOT MATTER!* Is it going to make you a better gardener if UB admits he didn't invent the technique? *NO!* So who cares if he invented it or not like I said! Whoever is so concerned about UB's claims then discuss it elsewhere. This thread is for people who don't care if he invented it or not they just enjoy the fact that the information is out there for them to use and improve their gardening skills. So go ahead and waste your time by posting your Jorge Cervantes information as we ignore it! Because your not going to get a response from myself or UB or anyone anymore on your subject because it is irrelevant to the educational factors of this thread!


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## Lt. Dan (Mar 20, 2011)

Serapis said:


> It's not irrlevant to the thread as the claim that he is the one that discovered it is part of this thread.... A little tip for you, since you are fairly new here...... you agreed to abide by some rules when you joined, namely, no name calling, threats, insults, etc.... If you have something to say, act like an adult and say it. When you start of calling people retarded, idiots, etc., you are going to be reported and may earn infractions, which can lead to a ban.
> 
> You are right, you have the ability to ignore my posts. If they anger you so much, I suggest you visit my profile and place me on your ignore list. I'll continue to post proof that topping existed long before this thread did, as long as the author continues to maintain credit.
> 
> Thanks for understanding....


 Petty BS and hiding behind the "I'll report you, you new guy"
I know why you don't unsub this thread, you're hoping to learn something............... both of you...........
WHY CAN'T WE JUST All GET ALONG 
I'm done, see ya


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## Serapis (Mar 20, 2011)

I'm hardly subbed to this thread, it just keeps popping up on the front page, and out of curiosity, I read to see who UB is blasting lately... lol...

And regardless new or old, name calling and personal insults aren't tolerated. I'm not hiding behind anything, as I believe my presentation and posts speak loud volumes. I have nothing to hide behind. I'm not here to argue at all, just set facts straight that this technique existed long before it was posted here. As long as the OP makes claims otherwise, I'll be here providing all the proof I can dig up.



Lt. Dan said:


> Petty BS and hiding behind the "I'll report you, you new guy"
> I know why you don't unsub this thread, you're hoping to learn something............... both of you...........
> WHY CAN'T WE JUST All GET ALONG
> I'm done, see ya


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## odlaw (Mar 20, 2011)

hes not hiding Lt Dan or threatening to report you he was stating facts and giving you some good and polite advice


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## DaLeftHandMan (Mar 20, 2011)

i used UB's (or whoevers, i dont care lol) technique and my lady gave me 6 colas! any explanation for that?! (wanting to get back to the learning) im happy either way!


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## Serapis (Mar 20, 2011)

It means that you didn't follow UB's technique properly, but congrats anyways.


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## Lt. Dan (Mar 20, 2011)

odlaw said:


> hes not hiding Lt Dan or threatening to report you he was stating facts and giving you some good and polite advice


 Yes, I know he wasn't threatening me. I didn't call him names so, his advice wasn't directed at me.
Hey, thanks for your input anyway!


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## Life Goes On (Mar 20, 2011)

Serapis said:


> It means that you didn't follow UB's technique properly, but congrats anyways.


Ok so you just said yourself "You didn't follow *UB's* technique properly" So my question is why did you say that? If you care so much about whether he invented it or not then you would have stated "Then you attempted the topping technique improperly" or something along those lines. This justifies my first statement that you are someone that has nothing better to do than spit box over the net. The reason I say that is because clearly you really don't care who invented the technique.


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## Life Goes On (Mar 21, 2011)

Serapis said:


> I'm hardly subbed to this thread, it just keeps popping up on the front page, and out of curiosity, I read to see who UB is blasting lately... lol...
> 
> And regardless new or old, name calling and personal insults aren't tolerated. I'm not hiding behind anything, as I believe my presentation and posts speak loud volumes. I have nothing to hide behind. I'm not here to argue at all, just set facts straight that this technique existed long before it was posted here. As long as the OP makes claims otherwise, I'll be here providing all the proof I can dig up.


LOL! "I believe my presentation and posts speak loud volumes" Yeah loud volumes of crap. Keep on digging my brotha!


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## Burger Boss (Mar 21, 2011)

Serapis said:


> *I'm hardly subbed to this thread, it just keeps popping up on the front page*, and out of curiosity, I read to see who UB is blasting lately... lol...
> 
> And regardless new or old, name calling and personal insults aren't tolerated. I'm not hiding behind anything, as I believe my presentation and posts speak loud volumes. I have nothing to hide behind. I'm not here to argue at all, just set facts straight that this technique existed long before it was posted here. As long as the OP makes claims otherwise, I'll be here providing all the proof I can dig up.


Uh...with all due respect, we all know that we "sub", automatically on our first post to any thread, and I'm pretty sure we all know where the "unsub" button is. Maybe you might use it and save yourself all this stress?
Good luck & good grow.......BB


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## Life Goes On (Mar 21, 2011)

Serapis said:


> It's not irrlevant to the thread as the claim that he is the one that discovered it is part of this thread.... A little tip for you, since you are fairly new here...... you agreed to abide by some rules when you joined, namely, no name calling, threats, insults, etc.... If you have something to say, act like an adult and say it. When you start of calling people retarded, idiots, etc., you are going to be reported and may earn infractions, which can lead to a ban.
> 
> You are right, you have the ability to ignore my posts. If they anger you so much, I suggest you visit my profile and place me on your ignore list. I'll continue to post proof that topping existed long before this thread did, as long as the author continues to maintain credit.
> 
> Thanks for understanding....


Oh I understand alright. I understand that your an ignorant moron that hasn't hit puberty yet so you have to play childish games. If you get me banned from a website then obviously the site wasn't worth the time and effort anyway. Not only that but that *REALLY* goes to show your maturity level. *EVERYONE* uses foul language every now and again and if you say you don't your a damn lie! So if your going to use "Foul Language" as an excuse to get me banned be my guest brotha I could give two shits and a fuck. This is a website there's thousands out there. Hell maybe I'll create my own and invite everyone that is from this site that is not a whiny little baby over to my site!


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## Life Goes On (Mar 21, 2011)

Burger Boss said:


> Uh...with all due respect, we all know that we "sub", automatically on our first post to any thread, and I'm pretty sure we all know where the "unsub" button is. Maybe you might use it and save yourself all this stress?
> Good luck & good grow.......BB


I second that. Clearly no one likes you here and vice versa so do us all a favor and kick rocks.


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## Life Goes On (Mar 21, 2011)

UB,

I would just like to apologize in advance for the clutter of garbage on your thread. I for one could care less if you invented the technique or not. The fact of the matter is I am appreciative that you took the initiative to make this information available (When no one else did and in an easy to understand tutorial) for me which *GREATLY* increased my success in the garden. When all this is over I'll bring the Pre 98 and we can get blitzed and laugh at all this.


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## Serapis (Mar 21, 2011)

kiss-ass


LOL.... really pathetic...



Life Goes On said:


> UB,
> 
> I would just like to apologize in advance for the clutter of garbage on your thread. I for one could care less if you invented the technique or not. The fact of the matter is I am appreciative that you took the initiative to make this information available (When no one else did and in an easy to understand tutorial) for me which *GREATLY* increased my success in the garden. When all this is over I'll bring the Pre 98 and we can get blitzed and laugh at all this.


----------



## Serapis (Mar 21, 2011)

The only person that can get you banned is you. If cussing is what it takes to get your point across, feel free to, just avoid calling people names and you'll be just fine friend. the conversation going on here was quite adult until you put your childish spin on it. I understand your need to rush to the defense of UB, really I do. But if you can't communicate without using insults and calling others names, don't bother addressing me, you can keep that noise to yourself. 



Life Goes On said:


> Oh I understand alright. I understand that your an ignorant moron that hasn't hit puberty yet so you have to play childish games. If you get me banned from a website then obviously the site wasn't worth the time and effort anyway. Not only that but that *REALLY* goes to show your maturity level. *EVERYONE* uses foul language every now and again and if you say you don't your a damn lie! So if your going to use "Foul Language" as an excuse to get me banned be my guest brotha I could give two shits and a fuck. This is a website there's thousands out there. Hell maybe I'll create my own and invite everyone that is from this site that is not a whiny little baby over to my site!


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## Serapis (Mar 21, 2011)

BTW, I invented defoliation. I just forgot to write a guide until now....


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## Serapis (Mar 21, 2011)

Click on the New Posts bar on the top of the page.... threads are listed in order they were last posted in, in descending order. Right now, because of the activity, this post is up top.... one needn't be subbed to this thread to see that it is active....



Burger Boss said:


> Uh...with all due respect, we all know that we "sub", automatically on our first post to any thread, and I'm pretty sure we all know where the "unsub" button is. Maybe you might use it and save yourself all this stress?
> Good luck & good grow.......BB


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## Life Goes On (Mar 21, 2011)

Serapis said:


> kiss-ass
> 
> 
> LOL.... really pathetic...


What's pathetic is your still wasting valuable oxygen by breathing. Go slap your daddy for me and tell him I said he should have pulled out!


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## collective gardener (Mar 21, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> What's pathetic is your still wasting valuable oxygen by breathing. Go slap your daddy for me and tell him I said he should have pulled out!


That was rude and uncalled for. You can have a discussion like an adult. Your point, I believe, is that it doesn't matter who invented it, you're happy to have UB here to help you learn. Is this correct? That's all need be said. I typically don't report, but this one is below this website. 

I, too was uncomfortable with UB claiming to invent 4 branch topping. Mainly, it made me sad because I know that many of you beginning growers look to him for advice and I don't like to see him tarnish his credibility beyond repair. I tried to address him with some levity, in an effort to give him an out. UB and I have had our differences, and will continue to do so. It would not break my heart if he was banned, but since, for now, he's here I do my best to keep it light because we do find ourselves in the same thread at times. You, sir, are only hurting UB's reputation by making it clear that his followers must resort to name calling as well. Furthermore, you have clogged his thread with name calling and insults, when there are many novice gardeners like yourself who depend on this thread to keep their garden alive.


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## dlively11 (Mar 21, 2011)

Bravo Collectivegarden I couldnt have said it better myself  





Life Goes On said:


> Oh I understand alright. I understand that your an ignorant moron that hasn't hit puberty yet so you have to play childish games. If you get me banned from a website then obviously the site wasn't worth the time and effort anyway. Not only that but that *REALLY* goes to show your maturity level. *EVERYONE* uses foul language every now and again and if you say you don't your a damn lie! So if your going to use "Foul Language" as an excuse to get me banned be my guest brotha I could give two shits and a fuck. This is a website there's thousands out there. Hell maybe I'll create my own and invite everyone that is from this site that is not a whiny little baby over to my site!


 
Maybe write a how to book on how to get banned from forums ???


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## dlively11 (Mar 21, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> What's pathetic is your still wasting valuable oxygen by breathing. Go slap your daddy for me and tell him I said he should have pulled out!


 Wow, looks like he has learned a lot from UB in more ways then one .....


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## dlively11 (Mar 21, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> I did invent this topping technique. If you can prove otherwise, then do so, or shut the fuck up dlively. You're just being a petty little prick.
> 
> To whom it might concern, if you have nothing to contribute but FUD, then spin your bullshit elsewhere, not in my thread.
> 
> UB


Are your pants on fire ? You might want to check. Your ability to lash out with insults at the slightest hint of being threatened, equals your ability to decieve. I just dont get you UB, so much anger in your posts.


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## The Cryptkeeper (Mar 21, 2011)

Burger Boss said:


> Uh...with all due respect, we all know that we "sub", automatically on our first post to any thread, and I'm pretty sure we all know where the "unsub" button is.


 You have to turn on the autosub option in your Control Panel under General Settings.


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## The45King (Mar 21, 2011)

Serapis said:


> It means that you didn't follow UB's technique properly, but congrats anyways.


Make ya mind up it either is ub's technique or it isnt
If jim henson wanted a new tv show he'd have no trouble finding
characters on here lately
am i right in thinking there's a lot of kids on this site now it seems that way
Peace to the helpful guys on this forum coz
afterall isnt that what its all about


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## Serapis (Mar 21, 2011)

Didn't you already apologize once for your outbursts and rudeness in this thread, and cluttering it up as you said? Yet you are going to continue to trash the thread with your bull shit personal attacks? I'm on fucking topic, discussing pruning and topping, which just so fucking happens to the be the damn subject of this thread. You on the other hand aren't on topic and are making fucking personal attacks........ You know your come get me threat? Why not just let me know the rest of that addy?



Life Goes On said:


> What's pathetic is your still wasting valuable oxygen by breathing. Go slap your daddy for me and tell him I said he should have pulled out!


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 21, 2011)

dlively11 said:


> Are your pants on fire ? You might want to check. Your ability to lash out with insults at the slightest hint of being threatened, equals your ability to decieve. I just dont get you UB, so much anger in your posts.


You spin, spread untruths, stir up the drama queens, and then want to point that crooked finger at me? You're a childish hypocrite, who's only game in town is to diminish my persona and concepts. I asked you to prove otherwise, you won't nor can you. In the end, it really doesn't matter what you feel or think, it's all about facts. I'll say it again, if you and your punk friends can't bring anything useful to this thread and only have an interest in antagonizing me and my friends, WE don't want you here. Got it?

And now for a little history lesson for those who were still messin' in their drawers when I was experimenting with cannabis every which way but Sunday. About 15 years the ONLY public forum, text only too, was a Newsgroup called ADPC. Those were the paranoid days when we used PGP encryption and chained encrypted servers when posting, when talking about our personal gardens. That was also before folks could get hold of seeds from Dam breeders, until Jock showed up (but that is another story for another time). A fella by the name of pH invented SCROG and was the point man for that technique. Having been a horticulturist for many years and experimented with hormonal concepts, I decided I wanted to go from 1 trunk, or main cola to more with pot plants....enter the UB Topping Technique. I didn't care for the smaller bud development that occurs with topping high on a plant, I wanted 2 or 4 main colas, and I succeeded after some experimentation. It wasn't until a year or so later that Canadian Ron came along with his site Marihemp.com aka cannabis.com, and eventually enabled the posting of images. This was also before the days of the present day digicam, so, the pictures you see on the first page were taken with the STILL option on a crude "digital" camcorder.....very low resolution. We also scanned Polaroid stills, which is what my avatar is. This was also long before the days of Vbulletin forums that we enjoy now. I posted my technique with photos and it's all history. It was a big thread then and it still holds alot of interest as is evident with this thread going. Years later Aryan (as well as others) got hold of it. That YouTube video is still out there....go fetch.

Found another "skeleton", this one of a Zamal sativa done back in 2001. Notice that the callous completely dropped off leaving a perfect profile of 4 cola/trunk plant.



And this is the rootball of that plant, with a taproot that is probably 24" long, a very fibrous rootball most likely induced by a Griffin's Spin-Out treated pot (although the previous shot reflects otherwise. It's just a damn healthy root system.)




UB


----------



## The Cryptkeeper (Mar 21, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Those were the paranoid days when we used PGP encryption and chained encrypted servers when posting, when talking about our personal gardens.


 Really?!? You guys used PGP back then? That's so fucking cool. I use PGP and the private forums I'm on use Onion servers but we aren't just marijuana.  I don't think TOR was around back then was it.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 21, 2011)

Serapis said:


> BTW, I invented defoliation. I just forgot to write a guide until now....


That's enough already, You've been reported for your constant antagonism. And I'll hit the Report button on the rest of you antagonists until this thread gets back on track.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 21, 2011)

dlively11 said:


> Wow, looks like he has learned a lot from UB in more ways then one .....


You've been reported. Enough already!

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 21, 2011)

Sheesh....after going back, time to set the record straight regarding lame allegations.



Serapis said:


> People have been topping plants for ages.... like tomatoes... please don't say you invented it...


I never said I invented topping, you may stop your spin and putting words in my mouth any time now. I said I invented a fool proof topping technique to induce 2 or 4 main colas on cannabis....not tomatoes, not sunflowers, on cannabis. Got it? You're another FUD monger and I'm getting tired of it.

UB


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## Chad Sexington (Mar 21, 2011)

Nice technique I'll try it this summer. Thanks.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 21, 2011)

Serapis said:


> Here is an article from Dear Jorge dated in 1999....
> 
> View attachment 1505762
> 
> The illustration clearly shows topping to produce a 4 main stem plant. Did Jorge steal this discovery from you? Hell, he doesn't even claim ownership, he is just passing along an old technique....


1999, eh? 

Everything Jorge authors, "writes", is plagarized, witness his Bible in which I and other OG members contributed ALL of the material that went into that book. He made his money off our works, which is OK. He makes no bones about it but there was quite an uproar when he joined OG and asked/told folks what his plans were for his next book after getting the blessing of admin, oldpink. Witness my Spin-Out technique starting on page 67 of the book which has some incorrect information. He said that the roots grow close to the paint and then turn up. I don't know where he got his info, but it is wrong. It's a great book, but there is a lot of faulty info in it.

UB

UB.


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## sso (Mar 21, 2011)

well, couldnt you then write a better book? having progressed since then?

btw, im new here, but looks to me, that there is a certain group here,that bitches and whines and objects and bullies and trolls at every opportunity.

if you participate, you are a part of it..

ignore, the bliss of the internet.. (well, unless ive got popcorn and or feel like fucking with a troll, rare tbough, its very boring due to the trolls limited nature)


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## VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO (Mar 21, 2011)

sso said:


> well, couldnt you then write a better book? having progressed since then?
> 
> btw, im new here, but looks to me, that there is a certain group here,that bitches and whines and objects and bullies and trolls at every opportunity.
> 
> ...


I was thinking the same thing, UB should just ignore the trolls, This thread is so far off base, I don't see what any of this accomplishes.
We are here to learn about growing, not bickering about who discovered what.


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## sso (Mar 21, 2011)

which you cant prove anyway. not really, not conclusively. you might be the discoverer of this or not, does not matter, its a cool technique, will probably be remembered and used long after whoever invented it is forgotten.

so, which is the object, being the biggest dick or helping people to grow (learning yourself as well) and being good enough at it, that you might make a buck out of it.

or at least help alot of people to grow, thereby overgrowing the government and helping yourself too.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 21, 2011)

sso said:


> which you cant prove anyway. not really, not conclusively. you might be the discoverer of this or not, does not matter, its a cool technique, will probably be remembered and used long after whoever invented it is forgotten.
> 
> so, which is the object, being the biggest dick or helping people to grow (learning yourself as well) and being good enough at it, that you might make a buck out of it.
> 
> or at least help alot of people to grow, thereby overgrowing the government and helping yourself too.


I'm not in this for the money or the notoriety, don't need either/or nor am I interested in writing another cannabis grow book. I have a passion for growing plants FWIW. Entertainment value only......


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## sso (Mar 21, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'm not in this for the money or the notoriety, don't need either/or nor am I interested in writing another cannabis grow book. I have a passion for growing plants FWIW. Entertainment value only......


nice.

well, even the argument is certainly bit entertaining.
but perhaps in the light of teaching, you should start a new thread specifically for that fight.

cause there is a LOT of useful info thats completely lost in 350+ pages of arguments.


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## sso (Mar 21, 2011)

besides, i was thinking bit oldfashioned, why write a book when you have the internet, instant connection to the world and fewer and fewer get left out.


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## The Cryptkeeper (Mar 21, 2011)

sso said:


> nice.
> 
> well, even the argument is certainly bit entertaining.
> but perhaps in the light of teaching, you should start a new thread specifically for that fight.
> ...


 Change your page settings to 50 posts a page and you'll only have 70 pages of arguments.


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## The45King (Mar 21, 2011)

Don't raise yself ub its obvious 1 or 2 muppets on ere have fckall better to do than bitch 1 another.
Peace


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## collective gardener (Mar 21, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> I did invent this topping technique. If you can prove otherwise, then do so, or shut the fuck up dlively. You're just being a petty little prick.
> 
> To whom it might concern, if you have nothing to contribute but FUD, then spin your bullshit elsewhere, not in my thread.
> 
> UB


This is your post Ben. Don't you start hacking on others for messing with your thread when you will see it was right on track until YOU posted this. YOU are the spin doc, YOU sir. Everyone was fine until you wrote this..."shut the f**k up" "you're being a little prick"...these are YOUR words, may man. What do you expect people to do when you call them names and insult them? Really, what? This thread is over half petty arguing, and if you look at it, every single negative string is started by you. YOU, may friend. I'm so sick and tired of you starting a shit storm and then claiming that everyone's out to get you. 


And, for the record, the first sentence IS you claiming to have invented this topping technique, so don't go off and say you didn't say it. It's right there. 

So, basically, here's how this one went. You made a false claim. (that you invented this topping technique).
Other people called you on it.
You lashed out at them, calling them names, but never adressing the issue.
You thern claim to have never said that you invented it, and want everyone else to get on topic.

I gave you an out with my post saying that maybe you were just playing around when you said you invented it. Maybe you should just come clean, rather than recant.


----------



## VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO (Mar 21, 2011)




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## Uncle Ben (Mar 21, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> This is your post Ben. Don't you start hacking on others for messing with your thread when you will see it was right on track until YOU posted this. YOU are the spin doc, YOU sir. Everyone was fine until you wrote this...&quot;shut the f**k up&quot; &quot;you're being a little prick&quot;...these are YOUR words, may man. What do you expect people to do when you call them names and insult them? Really, what? This thread is over half petty arguing, and if you look at it, every single negative string is started by you. YOU, may friend. I'm so sick and tired of you starting a shit storm and then claiming that everyone's out to get you.
> 
> 
> And, for the record, the first sentence IS you claiming to have invented this topping technique, so don't go off and say you didn't say it. It's right there.
> ...


 Are you through? Fine, now get the hell out of and stay out of my thread.

UB


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## Biologically Incorrect (Mar 21, 2011)

Words.... UB this topping technique kicks azz weather you invented it or not 

Peace out


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## Life Goes On (Mar 21, 2011)

dlively11 said:


> Are your pants on fire ? You might want to check. Your ability to lash out with insults at the slightest hint of being threatened, equals your ability to decieve. I just dont get you UB, so much anger in your posts.


Like I said before the reason behind the anger is brought about by idiots like yourself. We get angry cuz your on this thread trying to start shit. Was there any arguments prior to you and Serapis chiming in with your two cents? Fuck no! Maybe a little bickering here and there but nothing like this 3 page argument that is going on. And all of it could have been prevented had you and Serapiss minded your own damn business! So leave and there will be no anger and everyone will go on happy learning the info UB puts out there.


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## Life Goes On (Mar 21, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> That was rude and uncalled for. You can have a discussion like an adult. Your point, I believe, is that it doesn't matter who invented it, you're happy to have UB here to help you learn. Is this correct? That's all need be said. I typically don't report, but this one is below this website.
> 
> I, too was uncomfortable with UB claiming to invent 4 branch topping. Mainly, it made me sad because I know that many of you beginning growers look to him for advice and I don't like to see him tarnish his credibility beyond repair. I tried to address him with some levity, in an effort to give him an out. UB and I have had our differences, and will continue to do so. It would not break my heart if he was banned, but since, for now, he's here I do my best to keep it light because we do find ourselves in the same thread at times. You, sir, are only hurting UB's reputation by making it clear that his followers must resort to name calling as well. Furthermore, you have clogged his thread with name calling and insults, when there are many novice gardeners like yourself who depend on this thread to keep their garden alive.


Then to keep it plain and simple *LEAVE!* Clearly * NO ONE* values your opinion on this thread and us "new" growers are defending him so *CLEARLY* we don't give a rats ass about UB's credibility. As I said before the fact of the matter is UB is the ONLY person who took the initiative to make the information widely available. Hence the reason his thread is the one that pops up first when you search for topping methods. So instead of arguing with me why don't you do what everybody wants and bounce. Leave UB and his threads alone and everyone will be happy am I wrong? I don't see how there can be anger with no arguments?


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## Life Goes On (Mar 21, 2011)

Serapis said:


> Didn't you already apologize once for your outbursts and rudeness in this thread, and cluttering it up as you said? Yet you are going to continue to trash the thread with your bull shit personal attacks? I'm on fucking topic, discussing pruning and topping, which just so fucking happens to the be the damn subject of this thread. You on the other hand aren't on topic and are making fucking personal attacks........ You know your come get me threat? Why not just let me know the rest of that addy?


Yes I did. But correct me if I'm wrong you are the one who continues to press the issue no? If you don't like my insults LEAVE! As long as you keep pressing this stupid pointless issue that you initiated then I will keep insulting. LEAVE and everything will go back to normal and everyone will be happy. How bout that? I can be an adult if you can but if you can't come to an adult based agreement to leave this thread and it's entirety alone and I will stop insulting then you sir are the issue and I will continue to fire back with whatever need be until you leave.


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## Burger Boss (Mar 21, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> This is your post Ben. Don't you start hacking on others for messing with your thread when you will see it was right on track until YOU posted this. YOU are the spin doc, YOU sir. Everyone was fine until you wrote this..."shut the f**k up" "you're being a little prick"...these are YOUR words, may man. What do you expect people to do when you call them names and insult them? Really, what? This thread is over half petty arguing, and if you look at it, every single negative string is started by you. YOU, may friend. I'm so sick and tired of you starting a shit storm and then claiming that everyone's out to get you.
> 
> 
> And, for the record, the first sentence IS you claiming to have invented this topping technique, so don't go off and say you didn't say it. It's right there.
> ...


*

*OK, let the "pettyness" FLY: (seems like that's where this BS is destined anyway!).
FYI, "come clean" and "recant" mean the same thing; basically MEA CULPA.
In my humble opinion, Uncle Ben has NOTHING to "recant" or "come clean" about. No by God, I see nothing to bring about a mea culpa here. What I DO see are a couple of obsessive, petty Pit Bull's who failed obedience school. Now SIT! dammit....................BB


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## Serapis (Mar 21, 2011)

This is a public thread discussing topping my friend. YOU started the shit storm, I was on topic..... You haven't made post one on topic my friend.... If youn have nothing about the subject to say or contribute, perhaps you are better off saying nothing?



Life Goes On said:


> Like I said before the reason behind the anger is brought about by idiots like yourself. We get angry cuz your on this thread trying to start shit. Was there any arguments prior to you and Serapis chiming in with your two cents? Fuck no! Maybe a little bickering here and there but nothing like this 3 page argument that is going on. And all of it could have been prevented had you and Serapiss minded your own damn business! So leave and there will be no anger and everyone will go on happy learning the info UB puts out there.


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## elenor.rigby (Mar 21, 2011)

fight fight fight


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## potroast (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm sick of babysitting you naysayers. My request is for Serapis, Collective Gardener, dlively11 and any other member who has a problem with this thread to *NOT* post in this thread any more. If you have a problem with that, you can send me a Private Message.


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## Life Goes On (Mar 21, 2011)

Serapis said:


> This is a public thread discussing topping my friend. YOU started the shit storm, I was on topic..... You haven't made post one on topic my friend.... If youn have nothing about the subject to say or contribute, perhaps you are better off saying nothing?


Ya know what homie your not on topic either. The topic is NOT the fact of whether he invented the topping technique or not. The topic is topping. PERIOD! So your preaching to the choir brotha. How bout you head your own advice and say NOTHING!


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## ChroniCDooM (Mar 22, 2011)

HigH people. I'm currently on day 24 of my third ever grow. I'm growing one LSD and one Blue Mystic. After some reluctance I finally pulled the trigger and topped them both. Hoping I did it right. Pretty sure I did. I topped above the second node on each plant. I took a few pics on the iPhone and made a before and after video of the topping. I was wondering if I need to trim anything else or leave them as is? I would appreciate any feedback I can get on if I topped right and if I need to do anything else! + rep for sure! Here are a few pics not the best shots, the video has better angles. 










Here is the link to the pre topping video :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyDEEvtACJY&sns=em

Here is the link to the post topping video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o52w_FmKl3M&sns=em


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## ozgirl (Mar 22, 2011)

One thing im unclear about is what effect triming the plant at a later stage will have, for example if I had topped it above the second set of nodes for 4 colas, and it grows too big later on and needs a trim back, will that in any way effect my colas?


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## georgiagrower (Mar 22, 2011)

smoke n strum said:


> just trying to lighten things up a little... ummm.. nobody is laughing


Now thats funny


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## Life Goes On (Mar 22, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> HigH people. I'm currently on day 24 of my third ever grow. I'm growing one LSD and one Blue Mystic. After some reluctance I finally pulled the trigger and topped them both. Hoping I did it right. Pretty sure I did. I topped above the second node on each plant. I took a few pics on the iPhone and made a before and after video of the topping. I was wondering if I need to trim anything else or leave them as is? I would appreciate any feedback I can get on if I topped right and if I need to do anything else! + rep for sure! Here are a few pics not the best shots, the video has better angles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like you did everything right brotha! Good luck and happy growing! I'm sure you'll be glad you decided to top your girls.


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## The45King (Mar 22, 2011)

*ChroniCDooM* 
looks gd man them girls gonna be big


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 22, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> HigH people. I'm currently on day 24 of my third ever grow. I'm growing one LSD and one Blue Mystic. After some reluctance I finally pulled the trigger and topped them both. Hoping I did it right. Pretty sure I did. I topped above the second node on each plant. I took a few pics on the iPhone and made a before and after video of the topping. I was wondering if I need to trim anything else or leave them as is? I would appreciate any feedback I can get on if I topped right and if I need to do anything else! + rep for sure! Here are a few pics not the best shots, the video has better angles.


The first photo is tough to make a call on, the 2nd looks like you nailed it. They've opened up nicely and look really good. Very indica like with the short internodes. Based on their fine profile, I'd be pollinating those ladies if they were mine.

Cool video, appreciate the UB shout out, and don't worry, "it doesn't fuck 'em up" LOL.  Keep us updated as soon as they output new growth and finish.

As an aside, the square pots you're using work help prevent root spin-out. They won't totally prevent it unless the inside corner is sharp, but will help some. If you really want to get fancy, use a tall pot with inside ribs available from Stuewe. Here's the "UB Customized Perfect Pot". It's about 24" tall and is as good as say.......a 20 gallon pot regarding providing the best root system for the most efficient and effective uptake of water/salts. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers-45.html



potroast said:


> I'm sick of babysitting you naysayers. My request is for Serapis, Collective Gardener, dlively11 and any other member who has a problem with this thread to *NOT* post in this thread any more. If you have a problem with that, you can send me a Private Message.


We thank you!

UB


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## ChroniCDooM (Mar 22, 2011)

The45King said:


> *ChroniCDooM*
> looks gd man them girls gonna be big


Right on! ThnKs for the reply. Makes me feel better hearing I'm all good with my first topping!


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## ChroniCDooM (Mar 22, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> Looks like you did everything right brotha! Good luck and happy growing! I'm sure you'll be glad you decided to top your girls.


Appreciate it bro! One question I have is how long from here before switching to 12/12? I'm assuming a couple weeks to recover? Am I wrong? Thanks for any help anyone can give a rookie!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 22, 2011)

ozgirl said:


> One thing im unclear about is what effect triming the plant at a later stage will have, for example if I had topped it above the second set of nodes for 4 colas, and it grows too big later on and needs a trim back, will that in any way effect my colas?


Of course it will. If done early enough, it will induce them to branch. If done close to harvest, you'll probably get no response.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 22, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> Appreciate it bro! One question I have is how long from here before switching to 12/12? I'm assuming a couple weeks to recover? Am I wrong? Thanks for any help anyone can give a rookie!


There's no recovery period, just the amount of vegetative output that you can handle. Your call. Like I said on the first page, if you have a normal plant, expect output within 24 hours. I have topped after output in the petiole' axis had already started, in which case it's business as usual.

UB


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## ChroniCDooM (Mar 22, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> The first photo is tough to make a call on, the 2nd looks like you nailed it. They've opened up nicely and look really good. Very indica like with the short internodes. Based on their fine profile, I'd be pollinating those ladies if they were mine.
> 
> Cool video, appreciate the UB shout out, and don't worry, "it doesn't fuck 'em up" LOL.  Keep us updated as soon as they output new growth and finish.
> 
> ...


Right on! Thanks for the reply Uncle Ben! I appreciate it! Makes a rookie feel good hearing your kind words! If you think I nailed it on the one plant then I'm sure I nailed it on the other. I'm excited to see how it turns out and will definitely post pics of new growth! No prob on the video shout out. Definitley gotta give credit where credit is due! Thanks for the heads up on the pots also I'll check those out that you posted. As far as pollinating that may be a lil to advanced for me at this stage. That's ok cause one day I'll be close to your level! Hopefully close! Lol. Anyway thanks for the awesome sticky Uncle Ben! +rep. Yeah like u don't have enough! Lol oh yeah I'm gonna let grow before the light switch.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 22, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> Right on! Thanks for the reply Uncle Ben! I appreciate it! Makes a rookie feel good hearing your kind words! If you think I nailed it on the one plant then I'm sure I nailed it on the other. I'm excited to see how it turns out and will definitely post pics of new growth! No prob on the video shout out. Definitley gotta give credit where credit is due! Thanks for the heads up on the pots also I'll check those out that you posted. As far as pollinating that may be a lil to advanced for me at this stage. That's ok cause one day I'll be close to your level! Hopefully close! Lol. Anyway thanks for the awesome sticky Uncle Ben! +rep. Yeah like u don't have enough! Lol oh yeah I'm gonna let grow before the light switch.


You're welcome. Alot of apprehension is from inexperience. It's all about learning the program that works best for you and then it will all come together. And don't be afraid to upcan when the plant needs it, and when you do, bury the exposed stem as deep as you can and upcan at least 1 week prior to flipping so the plant can become established first. Once flowering commences, root production is put on the back burner. And before the question comes up, a plant becomes "established" as reflected by new top growth, which means that root output is also ongoing.

UB


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## ChroniCDooM (Mar 22, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> You're welcome. Alot of apprehension is from inexperience. It's all about learning the program that works best for you and then it will all come together. And don't be afraid to upcan when the plant needs it, and when you do, bury the exposed stem as deep as you can and upcan at least 1 week prior to flipping so the plant can become established first. Once flowering commences, root production is put on the back burner. And before the question comes up, a plant becomes "established" as reflected by new top growth, which means that root output is also ongoing.
> 
> UB


Lol Your right! Lots of apprehension over here! Always worried about screwing it up. But I am gaining confidence in myself with each day. As for the upcan I'm In 3 gallon pot right now. If I were to upcan I guess it would be to a 5 gallon bucket or possibly the pot you posted earlier. I was thinking of staying in what I got for the duration. What's your opinion on that? I am dealing with limited space above(no not inside my head lol) inside the cab. My medicine cabinet is 5'Hx3'Wx2'D. Thanks!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 22, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> Lol Your right! Lots of apprehension over here! Always worried about screwing it up. But I am gaining confidence in myself with each day. As for the upcan I'm In 3 gallon pot right now. If I were to upcan I guess it would be to a 5 gallon bucket or possibly the pot you posted earlier. I was thinking of staying in what I got for the duration. What's your opinion on that? I am dealing with limited space above(no not inside my head lol) inside the cab. My medicine cabinet is 5'Hx3'Wx2'D. Thanks!


I'd stay with the 3 gallon pot until harvest.


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## Dr Gruber (Mar 22, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'd stay with the 3 gallon pot until harvest.


Sorry for the stupid question UB. But, if space wasnt an issue, what size pot would you go with? Ive been finding a lot of discrepancy in what the stores and manufacturer says about pot size.
For instance the Company ITML says their Elite 1200 holds 2.5 gals(dry). One store i go to says it a 3 gal pot and another store says its a 5 gal pot. Things brings much confusion when people talk about pot size...is it the real size or the store listed size that they are talking about?
Any light you could shed on actual sizes you use would be very helpful.

Thanks!


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## Life Goes On (Mar 22, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> yeah I'm gonna let grow before the light switch.


 Good call. I usually veg for another month after I top. I can usually grow 4 four to five foot plants very comfortably in my 5x5x7 tent.


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## The45King (Mar 22, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> Appreciate it bro! One question I have is how long from here before switching to 12/12? I'm assuming a couple weeks to recover? Am I wrong? Thanks for any help anyone can give a rookie!


I veg til i get pre flowers nowadays its a gd way to go 
Peace


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## tafbang (Mar 22, 2011)

Uncle Ben is just sharing how he tops? Why you mad?


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## ChroniCDooM (Mar 22, 2011)

HigH people. Well it's been almost 24 hrs since they've been topped. Just peeked in on them and to a few pics. One question I have is where is the new growth coming from? I tried to get some pics on my iPhone with a loupe in front of the lens to get a close up. I have noticed on both plants that on each side of the main stem they have two little things? Shooting out. Four on each plant. These things are right at the node. Is this the growth I'm looking for or has it yet to appear? Sorry the pics aren't the best quality but you can kinda see the little things I'm talking about. Appreciate any feedback on this.


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## Burger Boss (Mar 22, 2011)

tafbang said:


> Uncle Ben is just sharing how he tops? Why you mad?


The anger vanished after post 3521 - What is your point? 
Quite frankly it SMELLS like shit disturbing to me.


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## Danielsgb (Mar 22, 2011)

ChronicDoom, the lateral branches growing is the new growth. Each of the 4 tips at the end becomes a Cola when they flower. From the purple pic I can see all four. 2 left & right, and 2 front & back. Does this make sense?
Daniels


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## webb107 (Mar 22, 2011)

Here are my plants with 4 main colas I let them grow to 4 nodes then i topped them

This is a pic of my LSD
 

Here is special k


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## grow plenty (Mar 22, 2011)

yea......the haters are gone and were back on trac! +rep uncle ben for YOUR fine topping tech. i use it...often! thank you for sharing...g.p.


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## ChroniCDooM (Mar 22, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> ChronicDoom, the lateral branches growing is the new growth. Each of the 4 tips at the end becomes a Cola when they flower. From the purple pic I can see all four. 2 left & right, and 2 front & back. Does this make sense?
> Daniels


Cool I see now. Lol thanks Daniels!


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## smoke n strum (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm going to call it Uncle Ben's technique forever...because it is. Like all wannabe pot heads I've started bunches of plants over the years, but never had the nads to let them get big...except for once that was pure luck, but I knew about topping and I did it, but i never knew how to do it right until I read this thread. Some people would tell the pope he wasn't Catholic... that's human nature. Don't argue with these guys... that's what they want... they want to disrupt this thread and when you respond to them, it just adds fuel to the fire. FWIW...sns


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## sso (Mar 22, 2011)

its a neat method, in this way, you cut off a tiny top, barely 2-3 cms of green, the plant hardly notices it and you end up with 4 tops that have perfect spacing.
and 4 tops is generally considered to be the perfect amount of tops per sqf. and by experience i think so too.

each top gets adequate lighting, have many more than that and they tend to crowd one another out (unless you´ve got a Big plant lol)


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## rjl (Mar 23, 2011)

Afghan plant started from seed on day 48, using the UBTT. 4 healthy main cola's, with all the juicy Hormones entering day 3 of 12/12 light cycle.
View attachment 1509820

*THE TOPPED CUT WAS PLACED IN JIFFY PELLET WITH ROOTING HORMONE. AFTER 2 WEEKS, PLACED IN SOIL.*
View attachment 1509821

A CLOSE UP OF THE ABOVE PLANT SHOWING THE JUNCTION OF THE 4 MAIN COLA'S.
View attachment 1509822

 *THE ABOVE PLANT A DAY AFTER THE UBTT CLEARLY SHOWS THE 2ND TRUE NODE. *


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 23, 2011)

webb107 said:


> Here are my plants with 4 main colas I let them grow to 4 nodes then i topped them
> 
> Here is special k
> View attachment 1508500


Excellent job!

Howdy everyone.....

Nice pix rjl, welcome to the thread to you and anyone else I might have missed lately.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 23, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> Cool I see now. Lol thanks Daniels!


Reading the first page might help.

UB


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## ChroniCDooM (Mar 23, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Reading the first page might help.
> 
> UB


Lol. Your right my bad! Not sure what I was thinking before but I get the picture now. Thanks UB.


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## Viagro (Mar 23, 2011)

Leave him alone, UB, he's busy burning down the fields.


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## The45King (Mar 23, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Excellent job!
> 
> Howdy everyone.....
> 
> ...


Welcome back to reality ub lol 
Peace


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## Gdaddy (Mar 23, 2011)

Well UB, all I can say is thank you and this technique rocks! I don't know how some of the others were doing it but to me it was simple. I was kind of leery about taking off so much growth since my plants were up to their 5th node but I decided to give it a go and cut them back to the 2nd node like you explained. Within a couple days they started on a huge growth spurt and now it's 2 weeks later and they're doing fantastic, each plant has 4 obvious top, quadrupled in size. Love the structure they're getting. 

The only thing I might do differently is to make the cut a little earlier, I hated to cut off that much growth, even though it was worth it. Guess the real test will be in the finished results, but I'm pretty optimistic. I would rather come away with 4 nice fat colas then 1 giant one, so I think it will work out well. 

Anyway, I'm on here a lot but I'm not really into posting but I had to give you some props, I don't necessarily always agree with your opinions or the way you go about things but, as far as this goes, you nailed it. Thanks again and I think I'll be using this technique from now on


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## stilldaydreaming (Mar 24, 2011)

Would you happen to have pictures of this at the full veg growth before flowering? We are trying to grasp the concept of this and what it looks like before they are flowering


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 24, 2011)

Gdaddy said:


> The only thing I might do differently is to make the cut a little earlier, I hated to cut off that much growth, even though it was worth it. Guess the real test will be in the finished results, but I'm pretty optimistic. I would rather come away with 4 nice fat colas then 1 giant one, so I think it will work out well.


You're welcome, glad it's working out for you. I could and have cut when I got to 3 nodes because my plants grow like a mofo. I only posted what I did in post #1 as a guide (waiting until the 5-6 node before you cut drill) which helps preclude any delay in new output.

UB


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## halftime (Mar 24, 2011)




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## ChroniCDooM (Mar 24, 2011)

HigH people. I'm on day 27 and 3 days since using UBTT. Both are looking great and I actually like the way they look better than before. I'm hoping for big things using this technique. I made a little video and took a few pics. Here is the vid link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UAuOKR-vEw&sns=em 

Pics of the LSD&Blue Mystic:


















If you checked out the vid, I sure could use some Help determining what the leaf spots(nute burn or deficiency) are. Thanks!


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## eyezla (Mar 24, 2011)

Hey I have a question UB, just for the sake of curiosity. I have a solid grasp on how this tech. works, and can't wait to do it on my next grow, But sometimes I am lucky enough to take home plants that are 8-12 inches tall already. So I dunno if i'd really want to cut it all the way down to the 2nd node. BUT if I did, would this technique STILL work? 

Also, lets say I didnt want to cut a 12incher down that far, I could top it, then top both tops once again, creating 4 colas, essentially doing the same thing, but would it be worse than your technique (as far as plant structure/strength etc goes). I guess basically I'm asking, other than taking longer, is the "old" way of topping worse?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 25, 2011)

eyezla said:


> Hey I have a question UB, just for the sake of curiosity. I have a solid grasp on how this tech. works, and can't wait to do it on my next grow, But sometimes I am lucky enough to take home plants that are 8-12 inches tall already. So I dunno if i'd really want to cut it all the way down to the 2nd node. BUT if I did, would this technique STILL work?
> 
> Also, lets say I didnt want to cut a 12incher down that far, I could top it, then top both tops once again, creating 4 colas, essentially doing the same thing, but would it be worse than your technique (as far as plant structure/strength etc goes). I guess basically I'm asking, other than taking longer, is the "old" way of topping worse?


As long as the nodes are opposing you can do it. By now, you probably have output down there anyway. 

2nd part of the question is "no". Reread my first posts. This is all about the redistribution of hormones as it relates to dormant foliar buds.

Good luck,
UB


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## eyezla (Mar 25, 2011)

Awesome, thanks a mil!!


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## The45King (Mar 25, 2011)

Heres the 1 i only vegged for 19 days she got mag def which caused 
me some problems,i would always veg longer in future but very happy with results
Peace


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## tafbang (Mar 25, 2011)

The45King said:


> Heres the 1 i only vegged for 19 days she got mag def which caused
> me some problems,i would always veg longer in future but very happy with results
> PeaceView attachment 1513492


suc cess


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## Weed lacer (Mar 25, 2011)

Just started reading this post and this is great advice. I wanna use this tec to start my first scrog grow. Thanks for the advice and I will keep everyone posted.


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## glades (Mar 26, 2011)

Holy crap, wow, what a thread! Great info here. I've learned so much, and have much more research to do on those points. I stopped reading at 40 pages then went random. This sum kind of record? 
Going to use this technique on my tomatoes this year. REAL tomatoes! Anyone done it?

One of the things I cant stop thinking about is the "not leaching out your plants at end harvest".
Good stuff!

-GLADES


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## beezkneez (Mar 26, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> Ok so you just said yourself "You didn't follow *UB's* technique properly" So my question is why did you say that? If you care so much about whether he invented it or not then you would have stated "Then you attempted the topping technique improperly" or something along those lines. This justifies my first statement that you are someone that has nothing better to do than spit box over the net. The reason I say that is because clearly you really don't care who invented the technique.



Are you honestly trying to defend two sides here? Serapis is right. If people ran around claiming they invented something or claimed to be Jesus Christ, we would want some credibility. UB bashes a lot, not that most of it isnt necessary. But when you bitch at people and say yes this is MY technique, then serapis proves him wrong, dont flame serapis. 

"simple minded retards such as yourself" Seriously? Serapis has contributed great information to this place. All ive read from you is bitching

TO serapis - I think some strains will go straight to the 6 or 8 main colas after this method. I had a strain do this, it as odd ><. And no I didnt do anything different, ive topped with this method before.


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## lbezphil2005 (Mar 27, 2011)

godaddy, why don't you plant the top you cut off? cloning the top of the plant, get a whole nother plant out of the deal (not sure nother is a word but sounded right there)


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## lbezphil2005 (Mar 27, 2011)

beezkneez said:


> Are you honestly trying to defend two sides here? Serapis is right. If people ran around claiming they invented something or claimed to be Jesus Christ, we would want some credibility. UB bashes a lot, not that most of it isnt necessary. But when you bitch at people and say yes this is MY technique, then serapis proves him wrong, dont flame serapis.
> 
> "simple minded retards such as yourself" Seriously? Serapis has contributed great information to this place. All ive read from you is bitching
> 
> TO serapis - I think some strains will go straight to the 6 or 8 main colas after this method. I had a strain do this, it as odd ><. And no I didnt do anything different, ive topped with this method before.


Like I said, he's just the one who wrote about it, he never claims to have "invented" it, that would be like you saying you invented the frigging wheel, all serapis is doing here is causing a bunch of bs or trying to get ub banned for whatever inane reason. Why not take your conversation with serapis to serapis thread and gtfo here, bro. UB is right in the aspect that this is his thread, he wrote about it, not serapis, not anybody else, it's right here so you can read every last bit of it,


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## Ace Capone (Mar 27, 2011)

Sounds like a closet opp.. The more you top your plants the bushier they will become, wich will take up more room per plant. In a 7ft x 2.5ft area 25 plants would be pretty crammed. Topping them would cram them more. I have learned that it is better to have fewer healthy larger plants than to have several small ones. You may wanna think about cutting down the size especially since your crop isn't on constant rotation. The only way to have a bunch of small plants be worth it is if you were to be harvesting on a weekly rotation.


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## Bobotrank (Mar 27, 2011)

What up croppers and toppers? Been lurking a bit, just waiting for things to get back to normal 'round these parts. Great info here, UB, btw. . . thanks bro!

Just cut some tops off about 20 cheeses yesterday-- taking a trip into the land of 2-4 cola growing... and I'm fooking excited. I'm a long way out from picture updates, as I'm still working on a 'bushy' round in the flower chamber right now... but just thought I'd show face in here first, and say keep up the good work peoples.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 27, 2011)

Bobotrank said:


> What up croppers and toppers? Been lurking a bit, just waiting for things to get back to normal 'round these parts. Great info here, UB, btw. . . thanks bro!
> 
> Just cut some tops off about 20 cheeses yesterday-- taking a trip into the land of 2-4 cola growing... and I'm fooking excited. I'm a long way out from picture updates, as I'm still working on a 'bushy' round in the flower chamber right now... but just thought I'd show face in here first, and say keep up the good work peoples.


Don't forget those Polaroid moments!

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 28, 2011)

beezkneez said:


> Are you honestly trying to defend two sides here? Serapis is right. If people ran around claiming they invented something or claimed to be Jesus Christ, we would want some credibility. UB bashes a lot, not that most of it isnt necessary. But when you bitch at people and say yes this is MY technique, then serapis proves him wrong, dont flame serapis.
> 
> "simple minded retards such as yourself" Seriously? Serapis has contributed great information to this place. All ive read from you is bitching
> 
> TO serapis - I think some strains will go straight to the 6 or 8 main colas after this method. I had a strain do this, it as odd ><. And no I didnt do anything different, ive topped with this method before.


Like explaining what and where a 2nd true node is, we've been down this road before. Potroast has warned the naysayers like serapis and his friends, and I have asked you guys to take the noise down the road. If you want to bash, kindly do it here. https://www.rollitup.org/toke-n-talk/417640-banning-unbanning-then-banning-then.html 

Also, kindly edit or delete your threads that are off topic, especially you *beezkneez.

*Thanks, and make it a great week,
UB


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## webb107 (Mar 28, 2011)

my special k 7 weeks into flower vegged for 4 weeks it was topped to get 4 main colas.


EDIT: These Pics are actually from 6.5 weeks into flower


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 28, 2011)

webb107 said:


> my special k 7 weeks into flower vegged for 4 weeks it was topped to get 4 main colas.
> View attachment 1518995View attachment 1518996
> 
> EDIT: These Pics are actually from 6.5 weeks into flower


Beautiful job!


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## Bobotrank (Mar 28, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Don't forget those Polaroid moments!
> 
> UB


Ohhh ok, as a proud parent I could not resist! Here's the babies, all trimmed and ready to go. note: small pot in middle was not topped-- she's just chillin for now.


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## webb107 (Mar 28, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Beautiful job!


thanks not long until its done now cant wait XD


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## Mai Thot (Mar 28, 2011)

Burger Boss: I have had the same problems only I prefer the federal institutions, it seems. Although they did nothing for the Hep C for five years in 85 to 90. I did the best I could naturally and did quite well. By the time another five had passed, I had already lost one eye to glaucoma. I sure was in good shape though otherwise.
Ya gotta wonder why they lay off the cops and other first responders when they are hiring hundreds of thousands of paper shifters? I think it is a scare tactice used to force us to do their will. The other is holding school kids hostage for more of our money. Another good thing about pot - until they make it legal and tax the crap out of it like cigs and my favorite Macanudo Cigars.
Damn MJ laws! I like Geo. Washington's idea of growing all the hemp one can. Think the founding fathers may have smoked a little? They all grew the stuff so one would think it might just happen on occasion.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 28, 2011)

Mai Thot said:


> Burger Boss: I have had the same problems only I prefer the federal institutions, it seems. Although they did nothing for the Hep C for five years in 85 to 90. I did the best I could naturally and did quite well. By the time another five had passed, I had already lost one eye to glaucoma. I sure was in good shape though otherwise.
> Ya gotta wonder why they lay off the cops and other first responders when they are hiring hundreds of thousands of paper shifters? I think it is a scare tactice used to force us to do their will. The other is holding school kids hostage for more of our money. Another good thing about pot - until they make it legal and tax the crap out of it like cigs and my favorite Macanudo Cigars.
> Damn MJ laws! I like Geo. Washington's idea of growing all the hemp one can. Think the founding fathers may have smoked a little? They all grew the stuff so one would think it might just happen on occasion.


Are you lost? Take this nonsense and post it elsewhere.


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## djruiner (Mar 28, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Are you lost? Take this nonsense and post it elsewhere.


he has posted this same thing in a few other threads...i think someone tripped his retard switch to the ON position.


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## Danielsgb (Mar 28, 2011)

Here's my Tangerine Dream that I topped for 4 Main Colas. It was 3 days ago. This should show where I cut & the effect. 
Thanks again for this thread UB.
Daniels


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## eyezla (Mar 28, 2011)

Originally Posted by gangaman 
This may have been previously addressed, but the technique only works if the opposing internodes are directly across from each other. What can you do if the bottom nodes on the clones are staggered? 

Thanks


DaveCoulier said:


> Tie down your upper branches to allow your lower branches to catch up, so that you can get 4 equal colas.


does anyone have any pictures of this technique being done on a plant with staggering nodes? If I am not mistaken, since clones are usually taken from sexually mature adults, wouldnt all "clones" already have staggered nodes to begin with?


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## ChroniCDooM (Mar 30, 2011)

What up people? Here are my two girls topped nine days ago. LSD&Blue Mystic. The mystic is taking off like crazy and both have filled in killa. Day 33 of veg and will be flipping the light in a few days if not sooner. Just finished installing my co2 setup. Been waiting on an atmospheric controller. Looking forward to seeing what the co2 does. Anyways here they are. 

Blue Mystic: 






LSD:






Together :


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 31, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> What up people? Here are my two girls topped nine days ago. LSD&Blue Mystic. The mystic is taking off like crazy and both have filled in killa. Day 33 of veg and will be flipping the light in a few days if not sooner. Just finished installing my co2 setup. Been waiting on an atmospheric controller. Looking forward to seeing what the co2 does. Anyways here they are.


Nice job.......


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## ChroniCDooM (Mar 31, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice job.......


Thanks UB! I'm topping from now on. Switching to flower tomorrow and will post pics later.


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## ndzbnln (Apr 2, 2011)

pic update 5th week of flower today.topped bubble


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## DaLeftHandMan (Apr 3, 2011)

Hey UB! Heres the results of my first attempt with topping! thanks for the advice! hows she look?


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 5, 2011)

Looks good!


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## VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO (Apr 5, 2011)

here is a plushberry done in UB's tech.


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## jestacrazy (Apr 5, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy!
> 
> Based on quite a few questions about topping I've received here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a-12.html I decided to reproduce a thread on my favorite topping method published at cann.com about 10 years ago. Even though I've got much better photos from many latter grows both indoor and outdoor, I'm gonna stick with the old photos from the original thread. Lighting is HPS from start to finish with the exception of using 4' long shop fluors from germ until about 2 weeks. Some pix were taken outdoors for better resolution thanks to an old camcorder I was using.
> *
> ...


How long does it take to see buds? and how long do you let the preflowere shjoots get? when do you switch it to 12/12 ?


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## ChroniCDooM (Apr 6, 2011)

Day 5 of flower. Topped a couple weeks ago. LSD and Blue Mystic. 


LSD











Blue Mystic:


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## Life Goes On (Apr 7, 2011)

UB,

I just want to start by saying I understand what you mean when you say YOU invented THIS technique. Let me help clarify things for the ignoramus out there. He DIDN'T invent topping itself but he DID invent this particular TECHNIQUE. Hence the reason he calls it UNCLE BENS topping TECHNIQUE. Meaning there are many different methods of topping but he invented/developed/perfected this particular one.

With that being said some proof of what I mean. In the following pictures are 3 clones that you see in the very front of the tent which we will not pay attention to. 

Then there are 3 Dairy Queen plants. These plants were topped at the second node just like in Uncle Bens technique HOWEVER I topped them as soon as the top of the plant sprouted after the second node! SO instead of waiting till the plant grew out to the 5th-6th node I topped it when it was at it's 3rd node! 

Now let's look at the two plants in the very back of the tent. The one to the left is a Bubba Kush X Blue Widow and the one to the right is a Bubble Berry. These two plants were topped using Uncle Bens technique to a "T". Notice the difference? 

The two plants topped using UNCLE BENS TECHNIQUE have 4 DISTINCT main colas as to were the 3 DQ plants topped at the second node but only grown out to the 3rd node sprouted many more than 4 colas and they seem to be much thinner as well. 

So for those of you that have nothing better to do than harrass Uncle Ben here is your explanation since you seek it so bad. He did NOT invent topping but he DID invent this particular TECHNIQUE. I don't know why that's so hard to understand? So without further adieu! The pics!


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 7, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> UB,
> 
> I just want to start by saying I understand what you mean when you say YOU invented THIS technique. Let me help clarify things for the ignoramus out there. He DIDN'T invent topping itself but he DID invent this particular TECHNIQUE. Hence the reason he calls it UNCLE BENS topping TECHNIQUE. Meaning there are many different methods of topping but he invented/developed/perfected this particular one.


Yep, was about least 15 years ago and first posted with photos at the first cannabis blogging forum, a site called cannabis.com aka Marihemp, now gone. 



> Then there are 3 Dairy Queen plants. These plants were topped at the second node just like in Uncle Bens technique HOWEVER I topped them as soon as the top of the plant sprouted after the second node! SO instead of waiting till the plant grew out to the 5th-6th node I topped it when it was at it's 3rd node!


Yep, as long as you know what you're doing (and it's obvious you do) you can play games with da homoans. Your plants look really nice.

Now......what the Dairy Queen needs is a good looking Burger King to come along and fancy her with his Whopper.  



> Now let's look at the two plants in the very back of the tent. The one to the left is a Bubba Kush X Blue Widow and the one to the right is a Bubble Berry. These two plants were topped using Uncle Bens technique to a "T". Notice the difference?
> 
> The two plants topped using UNCLE BENS TECHNIQUE have 4 DISTINCT main colas as to were the 3 DQ plants topped at the second node but only grown out to the 3rd node sprouted many more than 4 colas and they seem to be much thinner as well.


I'm curious. Are the extra shoots from the cotyledon sites?

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 7, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> Day 5 of flower. Topped a couple weeks ago. LSD and Blue Mystic.


Those have really come along nicely!


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## pelt1 (Apr 7, 2011)

Here are some shots of one of my last girls to get 4 colas with one cut. This is by far my fav technique to get my plants to grow the way I want in my shorter, smaller space. Even if it grows taller than I want, I am able to easily arrange the colas in my space the way I want so that they don't get burned by the light.

Also makes things super easy to trim and hang up!

It was a while back, but I think those other pics should show before and after the cut when it was younger.

Since this first plant, i have been topping ALL of my girls.


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## Life Goes On (Apr 7, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yep, was about least 15 years ago and first posted with photos at the first cannabis blogging forum, a site called cannabis.com aka Marihemp, now gone.
> 
> Yep, as long as you know what you're doing (and it's obvious you do) you can play games with da homoans. Your plants look really nice.


Hey thanks brotha!



Uncle Ben said:


> Now......what the Dairy Queen needs is a good looking Burger King to come along and fancy her with his Whopper.


Lol! I know huh? But what Burger King would you recommend?



Uncle Ben said:


> I'm curious. Are the extra shoots from the cotyledon sites?


Yes two of them are however the plants did this crazy thing were branches on the 4 main stems just shot out and stretched as if they wanted to be main cola's as well???


----------



## Burger Boss (Apr 7, 2011)

*"Lol! I know huh? But what Burger King would you recommend?"

HAH!........How many Burger Bosses do you know?? ROFLMAO.......BB
*


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 7, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> Lol! I know huh? But what Burger King would you recommend?


The guy with the biggest cola. 

You're still gonna get secondary brancbing.


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## MJUNCo (Apr 8, 2011)

hey can you check this post out for me please thnx
https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/423943-help-topping-please.html


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## The45King (Apr 10, 2011)

My bubblegum second day flower


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## drekoushranada (Apr 10, 2011)

Hey Uncle Ben how do you think Critical Mass would respond to topping? I will love to top these plants when I start my grow.


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## pelt1 (Apr 10, 2011)

Jock Horror I have just transplanted into a bigger pot. 

I also topped this one with one cut for 4 colas. I am going to hit her again after letting her adapt to this new pot to keep as short as possible. The transplant went excellent btw.


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## d6520 (Apr 11, 2011)

Im been vegging for f weeks now,... 2 weeks under t5s and 3 weeks under 2 600watt hps lights... I transplanted my girls into 5 gal. Buckets yesterday... Transplant went excellent... Im looking foward in having 4 main colas... I have not done any king of training... Im scared to cu


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## d6520 (Apr 11, 2011)

I apologize for my last post,.. I dint finish,... Well I was saying that I want 4 colas but im quite scared of cutting my girls,.. I plan on vegging for 3 more weeks... When should I top my girls... Space is not an issue... I can raise my lights up to 6 ft...


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## Life Goes On (Apr 12, 2011)

d6520 said:


> I apologize for my last post,.. I dint finish,... Well I was saying that I want 4 colas but im quite scared of cutting my girls,.. I plan on vegging for 3 more weeks... When should I top my girls... Space is not an issue... I can raise my lights up to 6 ft...


If I were you I'd top them for 4 colas once they develope the 5th or 6th node. Cut them ABOVE the 2nd node (NOT including the cotyledon site). Veg for another month then switch to 12/12. My plants usually end up finishing at 4-5 ft. tall. This is the method I use and I average 6-8 OZ. per plant dried and cured weight!


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## Shangeet (Apr 12, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy!
> 
> Based on quite a few questions about topping I've received here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a-12.html I decided to reproduce a thread on my favorite topping method published at cann.com about 10 years ago. Even though I've got much better photos from many latter grows both indoor and outdoor, I'm gonna stick with the old photos from the original thread. Lighting is HPS from start to finish with the exception of using 4' long shop fluors from germ until about 2 weeks. Some pix were taken outdoors for better resolution thanks to an old camcorder I was using.
> *
> ...





_*Does anyone have any experience with topping for four main colas, vegging horizontally, and then flowering vertically?

Would the two colas in "back" not get sufficient light, and therefore not be worthwhile?

I'm pretty sure that two would work, but I think that four might be tough.............the issue is that veg must be horizontal.*_


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## ndzbnln (Apr 13, 2011)

going on 7th week of flower,bubbleicious.thanks uncle ben.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 13, 2011)

Shangeet said:


> _*Does anyone have any experience with topping for four main colas, vegging horizontally, and then flowering vertically?
> 
> Would the two colas in "back" not get sufficient light, and therefore not be worthwhile?
> 
> I'm pretty sure that two would work, but I think that four might be tough.............the issue is that veg must be horizontal.*_


It will work if you can continue to train hortizontally. Light should be distributed evenly across all foliage regardless of orientation. 



ndzbnln said:


> going on 7th week of flower,bubbleicious.thanks uncle ben.View attachment 1548085View attachment 1548084View attachment 1548083View attachment 1548086View attachment 1548082


Welcome....looking good! (but a little N deficiency showing)

UB


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## ndzbnln (Apr 13, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> It will work if you can continue to train hortizontally. Light should be distributed evenly across all foliage regardless of orientation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
thankx uncle ben,really theres def showing?i started flushing the beginning of this week can that be the problem?


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## Life Goes On (Apr 13, 2011)

ndzbnln said:


> thankx uncle ben,really theres def showing?i started flushing the beginning of this week can that be the problem?


Oh yeah definately a N def. The yellowing leaves are a sign of a N def and yes flushing could have caused it. You want to keep those leaves nice and green till harvest time but if you plan on harvesting anytime soon (which I expect you are if your flushing) I wouldn't worry about it. It should not have any adverse effects on your final product.


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## OoGaNomiX (Apr 13, 2011)

This will be second grow im starting, Well first REAL grow, my first grow was a experimental try, but is this too advanced to try without stressing the plant out much? Im growing BF blue cheese, And read blueberry benefits from topping more than not, and this seems optimal to get a good amount.


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## The45King (Apr 13, 2011)

ndzbnln said:


> thankx uncle ben,really theres def showing?i started flushing the beginning of this week can that be the problem?


yes that would be it


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 13, 2011)

ndzbnln said:


> thankx uncle ben,really theres def showing?i started flushing the beginning of this week can that be the problem?


Flushing? You have a choice - submit to erroneous popular thought or to common sense botany as it applies to plant nutrition.


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## ndzbnln (Apr 13, 2011)

gr8 thanx 4 the info guys


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## Life Goes On (Apr 14, 2011)

OoGaNomiX said:


> This will be second grow im starting, Well first REAL grow, my first grow was a experimental try, but is this too advanced to try without stressing the plant out much? Im growing BF blue cheese, And read blueberry benefits from topping more than not, and this seems optimal to get a good amount.


The amount of "Stress" induced by topping is minimal if at all. Top them! Trust me you won't regret it!


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## OoGaNomiX (Apr 14, 2011)

Thanks. just had to be reassured.


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## VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO (Apr 14, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Flushing? You have a choice - submit to erroneous popular thought or to common sense botany as it applies to plant nutrition.


exactly, you don't stop feeding the horse 2 weeks before the race.


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## duo maxwell (Apr 14, 2011)

hey UB I am at the end of my 3rd week of veg and have 8 or 9 nodes is it to late for me to get 4 main cola. I though topping happened just before you go into veg.... I hope i didn't miss out.


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## ChroniCDooM (Apr 15, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Flushing? You have a choice - submit to erroneous popular thought or to common sense botany as it applies to plant nutrition.


So I take it you are against flushing before harvest. Can u please elaborate on the common sense botany as it applies to plant nutrition! Would love to hear your take on flushing! I'm just a rookie trying to take it all in. Thanks UB!

Here's my two girls(lsd&blue mystic) topped and on day 14 of flower. 

LSD:






Blue Mystic:


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## northernbandit (Apr 15, 2011)

VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO said:


> exactly, you don't stop feeding the horse 2 weeks before the race.


What if your planning on eating the horse right after the race? lol


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## VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO (Apr 15, 2011)

northernbandit said:


> What if your planning on eating the horse right after the race? lol


you would want to feed him even more, fatten him up, he won't win the race, but should feed the whole fam damily.lmfao


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## ChroniCDooM (Apr 15, 2011)

VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO said:


> you would want to feed him even more, fatten him up, he won't win the race, but should feed the whole fam damily.lmfao


LMAO at your quote in your sig. Luv that!


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## OpSec420 (Apr 16, 2011)

This is an awesome thread, really almost like a textbook, an online classroom. Much love and thanks to Uncle Ben! I am about 1/4 of the way through (like 75 pages in) and am wondering about the differences in yield between the 4 cola method and ccob method? Ccob being pretty much a single top lst. 

The grow I am planning is 20 plants in a 5x5 area under a 1000w hps (with a premium mh conversion bulb for veg), so there won't be much room for giant bushes stretching out laterally. UB's 4 cola topping technique seems perfect for this. I will be rotating, by hand, all of the plants daily for equal light distribution on each plant. Given that the 4 colas tend to lean to the side so the plant takes a vase-like shape, would it be a bad idea to hang some CFLs directly into the open "vase" interior of the plants during their days in the 'corners' (lower top-down lioght) areas of the grow room? And yes, a simple tomato cage seems like an awesome idea to keep the colas from leaning too much.


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## Life Goes On (Apr 16, 2011)

OpSec420 said:


> This is an awesome thread, really almost like a textbook, an online classroom. Much love and thanks to Uncle Ben! I am about 1/4 of the way through (like 75 pages in) and am wondering about the differences in yield between the 4 cola method and ccob method? Ccob being pretty much a single top lst.
> 
> The grow I am planning is 20 plants in a 5x5 area under a 1000w hps (with a premium mh conversion bulb for veg), so there won't be much room for giant bushes stretching out laterally. UB's 4 cola topping technique seems perfect for this. I will be rotating, by hand, all of the plants daily for equal light distribution on each plant. Given that the 4 colas tend to lean to the side so the plant takes a vase-like shape, would it be a bad idea to hang some CFLs directly into the open "vase" interior of the plants during their days in the 'corners' (lower top-down lioght) areas of the grow room? And yes, a simple tomato cage seems like an awesome idea to keep the colas from leaning too much.


Dude unless you plan on going SOG in that 5X5 area your insane if you think you'll fit 20 plants in there? I have a 5X5 tent and using UB's technique I let them grow to 5th-6th node chop to 2nd TRUE node (not including cotyledon site) and veg for another month. My plants end up being around 4-5 feet tall and quite bushy. I can fit 4 plants comfortably in there. Any more and they are quite crowded. So unless you plan on switching to 12/12 as soon as your seeds show face then you'll be alright with 20 plants. BUT if that's the case then it is pointless to use UB's technique unless you switch to 12/12 right after you cut them back down to the 2nd node. Even then I don't know if 20 plants will fit as a general rule of thumb is 1 gallon for every one month of life SO even if you switch to 12/12 right after you top them you are also going to have to have them in at least 3 gallon pots. As it takes about 1 month for the plants to reach there 5th-6th node. Then on average most "Predominantly" Indica plants take about 2 months to flower. If you switch to 12/12 as soon as the seeds show face then you could get away with a 2 gallon pot. I do imagine that your strains are "Predominantly" Indica right? As 20 Sativa's in a 5X5 area even under SOG conditions is pretty farfetched? As far as yield goes on 4 cola vs ccob I couldn't tell ya as I never experimented with LST. But I can tell you this I average 6-8 DRIED and CURED oz per plant using UB's topping technique letting them veg for another month after topping and then switching to 12/12! 24-32 oz out of 4 plants! I think that's a pretty good yield if you ask me! Oh and by the way I use a 400 MH for veg and 600 HPS for flower. I know yield is also very strain dependant and my strains are average yielders! BubbleBerry and Dairy Queen! So if 1LB and a half - 2 pounds out of 4 plants if average I would LOVE to see above average!


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## OpSec420 (Apr 16, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> Dude unless you plan on going SOG in that 5X5 area your insane if you think you'll fit 20 plants in there? I have a 5X5 tent and using UB's technique I let them grow to 5th-6th node chop to 2nd TRUE node (not including cotyledon site) and veg for another month. My plants end up being around 4-5 feet tall and quite bushy. I can fit 4 plants comfortably in there. Any more and they are quite crowded. So unless you plan on switching to 12/12 as soon as your seeds show face then you'll be alright with 20 plants. BUT if that's the case then it is pointless to use UB's technique unless you switch to 12/12 right after you cut them back down to the 2nd node. Even then I don't know if 20 plants will fit as a general rule of thumb is 1 gallon for every one month of life SO even if you switch to 12/12 right after you top them you are also going to have to have them in at least 3 gallon pots. As it takes about 1 month for the plants to reach there 5th-6th node. Then on average most "Predominantly" Indica plants take about 2 months to flower. If you switch to 12/12 as soon as the seeds show face then you could get away with a 2 gallon pot. I do imagine that your strains are "Predominantly" Indica right? As 20 Sativa's in a 5X5 area even under SOG conditions is pretty farfetched? As far as yield goes on 4 cola vs ccob I couldn't tell ya as I never experimented with LST. But I can tell you this I average 6-8 DRIED and CURED oz per plant using UB's topping technique letting them veg for another month after topping and then switching to 12/12! 24-32 oz out of 4 plants! I think that's a pretty good yield if you ask me! Oh and by the way I use a 400 MH for veg and 600 HPS for flower. I know yield is also very strain dependant and my strains are average yielders! BubbleBerry and Dairy Queen! So if 1LB and a half - 2 pounds out of 4 plants if average I would LOVE to see above average!


Thanks man, I really am a newb. I was thinking 5x5, 5 5gal pots in a row x 4 rows with an extra foot after the 4th row. I am using a single 1000watt hid and don't want to push the limit of what the light can effectively cover. I am going 24/0 and was going to veg another week after cutting back to second node and then go into 12/12. Height is not really an issue nor is space in general, just don't wanna stretch the light too far. So, roughly 5 weeks veg, 1000watt hid (mh conversion for veg, hps for flower), UB's method, as much space as I need...what would you suggest for max yield in minimum time under those conditions? I am even willing to move plants around by hand so they get an equal share of optimal light. 

Thanks


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## sso (Apr 16, 2011)

dont count your chickens before they´ve hatched, look around and see that only newbs ask yield questions (and for good reasons) unless of course its a joke contest or something.

you are gonna need to use a shorter veg time if you are going with 20 plants. how much more, not sure, havent seen your plants or rate of growth, possibly a more experienced grower can help you there.


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## OpSec420 (Apr 17, 2011)

Of course I am a newb. Seems like right around 4 weeks to get the 6th node for this method is the min veg time, and I am going 24/0 to make that as short a time as possible. I just want to give it some extra growth after topping, not much. Asking for suggestions on how to max yield in minimum time under given conditions seems like a legit (if noobish) question to me.


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## The45King (Apr 17, 2011)

The 4 tops


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## Life Goes On (Apr 17, 2011)

OpSec420 said:


> Of course I am a newb. Seems like right around 4 weeks to get the 6th node for this method is the min veg time, and I am going 24/0 to make that as short a time as possible. I just want to give it some extra growth after topping, not much. Asking for suggestions on how to max yield in minimum time under given conditions seems like a legit (if noobish) question to me.


I was a newb once therefore I understand the reason for the questions and I am Happy to offer my help to anyone who asks (At least till I have been a member of this site as long as UB and have answered the same question 50 billion times). So what I would suggest is not going 24/0. This will not make your plants grow any faster. Think about it. Plants are living breathing things just as myself and you right? Well then you need some rest EVERY night now don't you? What happens if you don't get that rest? You get cranky and don't want to do ANYTHING! Well plants are the same way and I believe that like humans a plant needs a minimum of 4 hours of dark/rest every night just as a human in order for the body to operate and function properly. So I would go at least 20/4 but I personally use the 18/6 Method. 


Now if light efficiency is your main concern and you insist on growin 16-20 plants in your 5x5 area go SOG. With the plants being short it will maximize efficiency of your light and you have a shorter grow time with SOG. 2 Months compared to at least 3 with any other technique. OR you could use UB's technique on lets say maybe 4 plants max. That will REALLY maximize light efficiency. Trust me cramming 16-20 plants in a 5X5 area and they WILL overlap (if not get all tangled up) which prevents light penetration deep into the canopy of your crop.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 17, 2011)

FWIW, cramming plants into a small space will increase the FR (far red) spectrum as seen by foliage, especially at the lower levels. (I'm guilty as charged.) This in turn will induce stretch. If you want a challenge, increase R while decreasing FR during the flowering phase.

I've always vegged with 20/4. It is a nice compromise between 24/0 and 18/6..... and in this biz, compromises produce the best results.

It's all in The Balance,
UB


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## OpSec420 (Apr 17, 2011)

Thanks for the answers, totally appreciated. I don't want to fuck up your thread (UB) with this debate but 24/0 is well established to cause to the plant to grow 30% faster, with tighter nodes. Don't take my word for it, take the word of people like Mel Frank,Ed Rosenthal, and cannabis botanical science in general. The stretch induced by cramming plants into a smaller space should be compromised by the tighter nodes resulting from the 24/0 schedule. I really am a newb grower but have been studying cannabis horticulture for about 20 years. Thats not props to me, it just means where cannabis is concerned I am an academician more than a real-life practicioner (well other than smoking the stuff    ). I am trying to formulate the best possible plan applying what I know against the tried-and true practices of real-life experienced growers. 

I am not at all saying I should put those 20 plants in that 5x5 space. The space can be 6x6, 8x8...I just want optimal coverage using the 1000watt hid. I am also planning on using mutliple cfls for side lighting, spinning each plant each day and re-positioning the plants every single day so they each get a share of optimimal lighting. 

The strain I plan on using is Sannis Killing fields, a dominant sativa with an advised short veg period, a plant that is supposed grow explosively during (a relatively long) flower. My hopes are to 12/12 asap and grow 4 colas during flower like randy t-rex dicks. 

Again, I am not trying to be contradictory or a dick in any way and have nothing but kind hopes of incredible health and prosperity for those generous enough to read through and answer my questions.


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## Danielsgb (Apr 18, 2011)

No way a 1000W will cover more than 5' x 5', and like they are saying 20 plants is too much. You have to think of sizes when they are into flowering. It's like someone who plants a new tree 12' from their house, not thinking about 15 yrs later, when it's spread hits 40'. UB mentioned how FR causes stretching, there is also another term for how plants sense how close one is next to it, so stretches. I can't remember the term.
I've read Mel Franks book 3 times, and don't remember advocating 24/0. I use 20/4 or 18/6. One other thing I'd point out is Sativas aren't known for being short and stocky so they take more space. Maybe if you had a light mover so the footprint was more like 8' x 5' or 10' x 5' you could get more like 16 to 20 then. Just my .02 
Daniels


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## Life Goes On (Apr 18, 2011)

> =OpSec420;5610175]Thanks for the answers, totally appreciated. I don't want to fuck up your thread (UB) with this debate but 24/0 is well established to cause to the plant to grow 30% faster, with tighter nodes. Don't take my word for it, take the word of people like Mel Frank,Ed Rosenthal, and cannabis botanical science in general. The stretch induced by cramming plants into a smaller space should be compromised by the tighter nodes resulting from the 24/0 schedule. I really am a newb grower but have been studying cannabis horticulture for about 20 years. Thats not props to me, it just means where cannabis is concerned I am an academician more than a real-life practicioner (well other than smoking the stuff    ). I am trying to formulate the best possible plan applying what I know against the tried-and true practices of real-life experienced growers.
> 
> I am not at all saying I should put those 20 plants in that 5x5 space. The space can be 6x6, 8x8...I just want optimal coverage using the 1000watt hid. I am also planning on using mutliple cfls for side lighting, spinning each plant each day and re-positioning the plants every single day so they each get a share of optimimal lighting.
> 
> ...


Well I don't know about Mel Frank and Ed Rosenthal but this was done under 18/6 and I would have to say those buds are not only BIG but TIGHT as well. The plant itself is only 30" tall from stem base to cola top so that tells me internode spacing is VERY tight as well. Pics are at 6 weeks flower.


With that being said on to your quest for maximum efficiency. Of course the smaller the room is and the higher wattage light you use your efficiency will increase HOWEVER the amount of plants you put into that space is also a VERY important factor. Oh not to mention ballast efficiency. Nowadays it is more efficient to run two 600W than it is to run one 1000W (Depending on ballast type) so that is something else you might want to consider. 

Ya know as I sit here (Stoned of course) I can't help but think to myself that something funny is going on here? You claim you studied MJ Hort for 20 years? Yet your having a hard time maximizing efficiency? I'm pretty sure that in those 20 years you've came across light penetration charts based on distances and lumens and how much wattage per square ft of space you need to "efficiently" grow? Ya know I'm down to help but hell even if you've never grown and studied *MJ* Hort in *specific* then I would imagine if you ever were planning to grow part of your planning would be a space/light efficiency scheme? 

Honestly man that is just something you will have to develope on your own. We could sit here and talk the "sciences" of it all day but when it comes to science "EVERYONE" has there own opinions and theorys. Therefore you just have to experiment and see what works for YOU and develope your own opinions and theorys on what works. I just feel if you've studied for 20 years you should be teaching me? Oh and not gonna lie. You being a "newb" and all with a name like OpSec420. Kinda scares me. Sounds like a federales sting code name!


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 18, 2011)

We tend to see what we want, expect, or hope to see. It's just human nature, and there's alot of HUMAN nature in cannabis forums LOL. 

Regarding light, my best indoor gardens have been 35w/s.f. (gawd I hate that inaccurate, stupid, forum paradigm). Your final production is dependent on how you manage about 20 different growth factors.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 18, 2011)

OpSec420 said:


> Thanks for the answers, totally appreciated. I don't want to fuck up your thread (UB) with this debate but 24/0 is well established to cause to the plant to grow 30% faster, with tighter nodes. Don't take my word for it,.....


No offense, but I won't. I don't recall reading any scientific studies regarding actual plant material bulk as it relates to photoperiods......bulk measured in grams, mg., etc. in any of the books you mentioned.

You guys may want to continue this light discussion here - https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/424009-positive-effect-diffused-versus-direct.html

Again, with every new crop of noobs comes the same old questions, theories, anecdotal evidence and stuff.

UB


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## OpSec420 (Apr 18, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> No way a 1000W will cover more than 5' x 5', and like they are saying 20 plants is too much. You have to think of sizes when they are into flowering. It's like someone who plants a new tree 12' from their house, not thinking about 15 yrs later, when it's spread hits 40'. UB mentioned how FR causes stretching, there is also another term for how plants sense how close one is next to it, so stretches. I can't remember the term.
> I've read Mel Franks book 3 times, and don't remember advocating 24/0. I use 20/4 or 18/6. One other thing I'd point out is Sativas aren't known for being short and stocky so they take more space. Maybe if you had a light mover so the footprint was more like 8' x 5' or 10' x 5' you could get more like 16 to 20 then. Just my .02
> Daniels


Your 2 cents is golden, thank you very much for it  

Marijuana Grower's Insider's Guide (by Mel Frank)
""_Garden's grown under 24 hours of light a day do grow faster than those under 18 hours of daily light; but for many growers the cost of electricity outweighs the increase in rate of growth. Other growers reason that, considering the cost of marijuana, who cares about electrical costs? If electricity costs are a concern to you, 18 hour light cycles are your best choice_.""
it is on page 57. 

I plant on rotating the plants, like literaly moving the plants every day, which is the same effect as a slow speed light mover. I am not disagreeing with what you are saying, just clarifying where I am coming from.


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## OpSec420 (Apr 18, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> Well I don't know about Mel Frank and Ed Rosenthal but this was done under 18/6 and I would have to say those buds are not only BIG but TIGHT as well. The plant itself is only 30" tall from stem base to cola top so that tells me internode spacing is VERY tight as well. Pics are at 6 weeks flower.
> View attachment 1556349View attachment 1556348View attachment 1556347View attachment 1556346View attachment 1556345
> 
> With that being said on to your quest for maximum efficiency. Of course the smaller the room is and the higher wattage light you use your efficiency will increase HOWEVER the amount of plants you put into that space is also a VERY important factor. Oh not to mention ballast efficiency. Nowadays it is more efficient to run two 600W than it is to run one 1000W (Depending on ballast type) so that is something else you might want to consider.
> ...


Your shit looks sweet, 18/6 works very well for very many people. 

You make some great points, good honest evaluations. I have light penetration, lumens, optimal coverage space etc all covered in about 4 different diagrams I have made up based on what I've read and seen. I have a chart made out planning exactly where each plant will be moved to each day inside coincentric spheres of penetration/lumens etc. I would much rather have 3 1000watt vertical hid with vertically staggered coverage areas on a circular light mover in a stadium grow, so that the plant-rows would be on steps matched by staggered lighting. But thats all $$$. I am trying to start relatively simple to get the hands-on fine points down before trying anything too experimental. 

About teaching it really seems to me that we are/should be all teaching each other. In other words, sharing information. That is what I am trying to do, take some info in, give some info out. More take than give for me due to lack of hands on experience. 

About my SN, my background does indeed involve opsec (Operational Security), and I use different SN's on many different mj cultivation forums, not using any single one for too long, and am ALWAYS the newb asking questions, never growing my own. That is opsec. OpSec420 just means "OperationalSecurity: cannabis". In other words, like Gandalf said, "keep it secret, keep it safe!".


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## Life Goes On (Apr 18, 2011)

OpSec420 said:


> Your shit looks sweet, 18/6 works very well for very many people.
> 
> You make some great points, good honest evaluations. I have light penetration, lumens, optimal coverage space etc all covered in about 4 different diagrams I have made up based on what I've read and seen. I have a chart made out planning exactly where each plant will be moved to each day inside coincentric spheres of penetration/lumens etc. I would much rather have 3 1000watt vertical hid with vertically staggered coverage areas on a circular light mover in a stadium grow, so that the plant-rows would be on steps matched by staggered lighting. But thats all $$$. I am trying to start relatively simple to get the hands-on fine points down before trying anything too experimental.
> 
> ...


Yes I am prior service myself 3rd Brigade 4th ID (Mechanized) 4th Squadron 10th Cavalry Regiment. Buffalo Soldiers! so I know what OpSec stands for that's why I got nervous. Anyway it seems to me as if you have everything all thought out so run with it brotha! Like I said it's all about experimentation and seeing what works best for you!


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## OpSec420 (Apr 18, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> We tend to see what we want, expect, or hope to see. It's just human nature, and there's alot of HUMAN nature in cannabis forums LOL.
> 
> Regarding light, my best indoor gardens have been 35w/s.f. (gawd I hate that inaccurate, stupid, forum paradigm). Your final production is dependent on how you manage about 20 different growth factors.
> 
> UB


I am wondering how much stock you put into hobbes idea that with light movers/plant rotation you can cut that effective w/sf number in half, in other words rather than 35/sf prime, 17.5/sf prime with a mover.


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## OpSec420 (Apr 18, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> No offense, but I won't. I don't recall reading any scientific studies regarding actual plant material bulk as it relates to photoperiods......bulk measured in grams, mg., etc. in any of the books you mentioned.
> 
> You guys may want to continue this light discussion here - https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/424009-positive-effect-diffused-versus-direct.html
> 
> ...


I quoted passage, page #, book and author (Franks); not an increase in weight or bulk so much as simply a faster growing plant with tighter nodes during veg. I digress though, and will continue the discussion in a more appropriate thread. Much respect and thanks to you for posting your knowledge and hope to see you in one of the light threads.


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## OpSec420 (Apr 18, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> Yes I am prior service myself 3rd Brigade 4th ID (Mechanized) 4th Squadron 10th Cavalry Regiment. Buffalo Soldiers! so I know what OpSec stands for that's why I got nervous. Anyway it seems to me as if you have everything all thought out so run with it brotha! Like I said it's all about experimentation and seeing what works best for you!


Heh..gotta love Steve Earl!


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## loquacious (Apr 19, 2011)

Just wanted to say that I used this topping technique and my plat is getting huge with 4 main colas! I only did this on one plant, but next grow will top all 13 plants.


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## The45King (Apr 20, 2011)

OpSec420 said:


> Thanks for the answers, totally appreciated. I don't want to fuck up your thread (UB) with this debate but 24/0 is well established to cause to the plant to grow 30% faster, with tighter nodes.
> 
> Im 420 all the way
> oops i mean 20.4


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## ChroniCDooM (Apr 20, 2011)

What up people? Happy 420! Here's my LSD topped and now on day 19 of flower.


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## dannyboy602 (Apr 20, 2011)

i used it. it works. nice distribution of light, air. ima do it again. only i prune before i flip the switch.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 20, 2011)

Happy 4/20! puff puff pass.............


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## ozgirl (Apr 21, 2011)

Beautifull plants chronicdoom


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## businessmanben (Apr 21, 2011)

After the initial cut do you trim any more nodes (off the four main nodes)as it grows. The picture looks like the top of the plant has been trimmed.


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## Dr Gruber (Apr 22, 2011)

looks good to me.


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## Dr Gruber (Apr 22, 2011)

cstoebs said:


> yea thats what i thought i just wasnt sure cuz i thought new tops came from the stem i didnt know that they were just the branches underneath that took place as the tops


yep, those branches are where the tops are.


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## ThaConspiracy (Apr 24, 2011)

I used your technique and it turned out great, I have 4 main stems!!



Unfortunately i missed on the second plant and just decided to let it grow out naturally and now i have a 3 ft Christmas tree looking plant


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## thetsb (Apr 25, 2011)

Ive posted my Uncle Bens Topped Pc grow on youtube 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IcehmdR6pI
Thanks for the Post


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## ChroniCDooM (Apr 26, 2011)

Just wanted to give another update on my two girls(LSD&Blue Mystic), topped and now on 26 of flower. Maybe if ub don't mind I'll post a pic once a week to show off the topping. The LSD is looking killa! She's very photogenic! The blue mystic has become a beast. I ran out of overhead in my cabinet so I tried to tie her down some. She has 4 tops going. A couple tops ended up bending when I tied down, but are still responding well. Anyway if you are thinking of topping, just do it! I never topped before now, and am really happy with the way they turned out and will definitley be using this technique in the future! Thanks again UB!
Here is the Blue Mystic:







LSD:


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 26, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> Just wanted to give another update on my two girls(LSD&Blue Mystic), topped and now on 26 of flower. Maybe if ub don't mind I'll post a pic once a week to show off the topping. The LSD is looking killa! She's very photogenic! The blue mystic has become a beast. I ran out of overhead in my cabinet so I tried to tie her down some. She has 4 tops going. A couple tops ended up bending when I tied down, but are still responding well. Anyway if you are thinking of topping, just do it! I never topped before now, and am really happy with the way they turned out and will definitley be using this technique in the future! Thanks again UB!
> Here is the Blue Mystic:


Glad it's working out for you. Nice looking plants!


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## lbezphil2005 (Apr 27, 2011)

Those babies are rocking, sonicdoom, great job, the bending is just lst'ing, thats all, won't hurt one bit! Those girls should yield quite nicely!!!


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## Life Goes On (Apr 27, 2011)

Here's my BubbleBerry topped the Uncle Ben way! About 2 weeks from harvest!


She is smelling very Bubblegumish and is super frosty!


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 28, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> Here's my BubbleBerry topped the Uncle Ben way! About 2 weeks from harvest!
> 
> View attachment 1573790
> 
> She is smelling very Bubblegumish and is super frosty!


Wow, now that is a classic! I'm not only impressed with the fat, 4 cola profile, but the health....nice and green. Looks like you've lost none of the fan leaves. Good on ya! Now.....don't go screwing them up with a bunch of bloom food LOL. FOCUS on keeping the leaves healthy and green until harvest and you'll be rewarded with really nice yields.

As an aside, just looking at a long shot of those plants, they look like they may be more than 2 weeks away from harvest. More like 3-4 weeks to me. Are you getting any brown pistils and how is the _new_ pistil/calyx development? 

Good job,
Uncle Ben


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## Hotwired (Apr 28, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Wow, now that is a classic! I'm not only impressed with the fat, 4 cola profile, but the health....nice and green. Looks like you've lost none of the fan leaves. Good on ya! Now.....don't go screwing them up with a bunch of bloom food LOL. FOCUS on keeping the leaves healthy and green until harvest and you'll be rewarded with really nice yields.
> 
> As an aside, just looking at a long shot of those plants, they look like they may be more than 2 weeks away from harvest. More like 3-4 weeks to me. Are you getting any brown pistils and how is the _new_ pistil/calyx development?
> 
> ...


agreed

Excellent health and very frosty. No leaves removed from plant and the bottom leaves just starting to turn. Did you use Jack's?


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## Life Goes On (Apr 28, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Wow, now that is a classic! I'm not only impressed with the fat, 4 cola profile, but the health....nice and green. Looks like you've lost none of the fan leaves. Good on ya! Now.....don't go screwing them up with a bunch of bloom food LOL. FOCUS on keeping the leaves healthy and green until harvest and you'll be rewarded with really nice yields.
> 
> As an aside, just looking at a long shot of those plants, they look like they may be more than 2 weeks away from harvest. More like 3-4 weeks to me. Are you getting any brown pistils and how is the _new_ pistil/calyx development?
> 
> ...


Yes you are probably right about harvest time. I just put two weeks as that is the projected harvest date based on the breeders pack recommendation of harvest time. But yes I do go based on Trichome color. Right now I am just waiting for my 30X triplet jewellers loupe to come in. I bought one of those micro's from radio shack and it works excellent when you can get it in focus but then good luck keeping it there. As far as the bloom food don't worry I'm past my "more is better" phase lol. No. No brown pistols yet. I've got orange ones (Don't know if you can tell in the pics or not) and as far as thier developement goes they are swelling by the day. I just watered the plants two days ago. When I woke up and checked them the next day the buds were noticeably fatter! So I'd say pistil/calyx developement as far as forming new ones is complete but they are just swelling and fattening up now!


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## Life Goes On (Apr 28, 2011)

Hotwired said:


> agreed
> 
> Excellent health and very frosty. No leaves removed from plant and the bottom leaves just starting to turn. Did you use Jack's?


No not this time around lol. I'm sure you see the dynamic duo (All purpose and bloom booster) in the background of the pics. I am currently using Subcools Super Soil recipe (With a few of my own tweeks) and I have to say I am quite pleased with the results! I bought the Jacks for this years outdoor grow OG #18 and Cindy99! Plus I think I will start using the all purpose in conjunction with the Super Soil as I tend to run into nutrient issues prior to the roots of the plants reaching the Super Soil.


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## pelt1 (Apr 29, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> Here's my BubbleBerry topped the Uncle Ben way! About 2 weeks from harvest!
> View attachment 1573794
> 
> She is smelling very Bubblegumish and is super frosty!


Wow!! Just wow! I love how green those babies are. I've been battling with that myself over the last few harvests, trying to keep more green color up to harvest.

----EDIT--------
Here is a pic of my topped Jock Horror. As mentioned above, this baby will make it through flowering GREEN!!!

View attachment 1576919


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 30, 2011)

Nice! Keep 'em green fellers!


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## db2 (May 1, 2011)

Uncle Ben, so I have a couple LSD strains going and I want them topped. My plants are already at 6 nodes going on 7 and I am wondering if the effect will alter in any way if I cut the stem above the 3rd node instead of above the seconde node. Will I still have 4 main colas? Also, the bottom two sets of leaves arent very big and dont have many leaves so would having an extra set of leaves help to take in the light? any advice is appreciated. thanks


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## Uncle Ben (May 1, 2011)

db2 said:


> Uncle Ben, so I have a couple LSD strains going and I want them topped. My plants are already at 6 nodes going on 7 and I am wondering if the effect will alter in any way if I cut the stem above the 3rd node instead of above the seconde node. Will I still have 4 main colas? Also, the bottom two sets of leaves arent very big and dont have many leaves so would having an extra set of leaves help to take in the light? any advice is appreciated. thanks


Start at the first post.


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## db2 (May 1, 2011)

I am wondering if cutting above the 3rd node will result in 4 main colas. I know the first post recomends above the second node but my bottom two leaf sets are pretty weak to be honest so I am wondering if cutting above the 3rd node would work just as well so I could have more leaves.


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## Life Goes On (May 1, 2011)

db2 said:


> I am wondering if cutting above the 3rd node will result in 4 main colas. I know the first post recomends above the second node but my bottom two leaf sets are pretty weak to be honest so I am wondering if cutting above the 3rd node would work just as well so I could have more leaves.


Dude the reason he said "Start at the first post" is because it explains anything above the 2nd node will result in more than 4 cola's. Which in turn results in smaller colas. Most likely if you cut above the 3rd node you will end up with 6 colas. If you cut above the 4th you will end up with 8. Get where I'm going with this. Cut above the 2nd your plant will be fine.


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## db2 (May 1, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> Dude the reason he said "Start at the first post" is because it explains anything above the 2nd node will result in more than 4 cola's. Which in turn results in smaller colas. Most likely if you cut above the 3rd node you will end up with 6 colas. If you cut above the 4th you will end up with 8. Get where I'm going with this. Cut above the 2nd your plant will be fine.


 
okay, that helped very much. But would I get 4 good colas even if the bottom 2 sets of leaves look somewhat burnt from nutes (rookie mistake) and there are 3 1 leafers and 1 2 leafer between the two nodes. Anyways, I am just wondering if it is safe to still do this above the 2nd node with the lack of leaves in the first two sets.


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## Life Goes On (May 1, 2011)

db2 said:


> okay, that helped very much. But would I get 4 good colas even if the bottom 2 sets of leaves look somewhat burnt from nutes (rookie mistake) and there are 3 1 leafers and 1 2 leafer between the two nodes. Anyways, I am just wondering if it is safe to still do this above the 2nd node with the lack of leaves in the first two sets.


Yes. The reason I said it would be fine in the first place is because that tends to happen to me as well. Not from nute burn but usually from a N deficiency. It usually happens when I have my plants in the one gallon pots prior to transplanting them to thier finishing pots which are 7 gallons. I just need to get my transplant timing down a little better that's all. Anyway they always recover and you can see the results on this thread on page 366. I'm quite positive your ladies will look ugly for a little bit but then once the new growth appears she will turn into a beautiful swan! Just do it and I promise as long as you take good care of her she will turn out just fine.


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## db2 (May 1, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> Yes. The reason I said it would be fine in the first place is because that tends to happen to me as well. Not from nute burn but usually from a N deficiency. It usually happens when I have my plants in the one gallon pots prior to transplanting them to thier finishing pots which are 7 gallons. I just need to get my transplant timing down a little better that's all. Anyway they always recover and you can see the results on this thread on page 366. I'm quite positive your ladies will look ugly for a little bit but then once the new growth appears she will turn into a beautiful swan! Just do it and I promise as long as you take good care of her she will turn out just fine.


thank you, you were great help


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## growUS (May 2, 2011)

hi guys, I've read a bunch of pages but i've never topped before so heres my Q. If your plant has more than 6 nodes do you still cut at the 2nd node or offset it to match cutting off 4 nodes? ie. if plant has 8 nodes cut it at the 4th node. thanks


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## Dr Gruber (May 2, 2011)

growUS said:


> hi guys, I've read a bunch of pages but i've never topped before so heres my Q. If your plant has more than 6 nodes do you still cut at the 2nd node or offset it to match cutting off 4 nodes? ie. if plant has 8 nodes cut it at the 4th node. thanks


6 or 8 nodes is just about perfect for this...still cut just above 2nd true node for 4 colas.


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## ChroniCDooM (May 2, 2011)

I had about 8 nodes on this lsd when I topped her. She is now on day 32 of flower. 
View attachment 1581381View attachment 1581385


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## Life Goes On (May 2, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> I had about 8 nodes on this lsd when I topped her. She is now on day 32 of flower.
> View attachment 1581381View attachment 1581385View attachment 1581386


She's lookin sexy brotha! I got a funny story about LSD. This guy I ran into at a local dispensary whom is an avid mountain climber said "One day while waiting for my friend at the trail head I decided to medicate (With Barney's Farm LSD). He told me "The next thing I remember was waking up on the dirt road and literally crawling towards my jeep to get out of the way of traffic!" He said "I had to crawl because I was so numb I couldn't feel my legs!" Then he told me "As I was trying to get into my jeep I accidently closed my arm in the door 3 times before I got it right! Then next thing I know my friend is waking me up! I had fallen asleep on the window well of my jeep and drooled all down the door!" And supposedly this guy claims he's not a novice smoker either lol! I don't know how much truth he put into that story but it was quite halirous the way he told it none the less! And if it was true SEND ME SOME OF THAT WHEN SHE FINISHES!!!!! LOL! Anyway good job on the LSD Brotha!


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## lbezphil2005 (May 3, 2011)

stories like that are what lead people who don't smoke to believe there IS something to be worried about with pot. I think he's full of crap, myself. I had a bro in high school, when we were 15, we got so stoned that he couldn't get on his bike, but we were also laughing so frigging hard we could hardly see, either, that was the difference! NO pot is that strong yet, (if there is then I need it right now!!!!0


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## kana (May 4, 2011)

Vanilla Kush


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## growUS (May 4, 2011)

awesome, still at the 2nd node, thanks


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## lbezphil2005 (May 5, 2011)

That is some nice bud, kana


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## growUS (May 5, 2011)

okay one more thing ha ha
they're some baby leaves at the bottom that are a little burnt, do i count them as a node?


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## Danielsgb (May 5, 2011)

Nope, those are the cotyledons. No lateral branches come from them. Kinda looks pale, so a Nitrogen rich food should help.


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## growUS (May 5, 2011)

thanks, im about to transplant and hit em all with nitrogen.


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## medicine21 (May 5, 2011)

Is this technique good for a large bushy plant SCROG or are you better off topping higher to get more branches to spread for SCROG?


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## Life Goes On (May 5, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Is this technique good for a large bushy plant SCROG or are you better off topping higher to get more branches to spread for SCROG?


I'd top in the same place but instead of waiting till the plant hits 6 nodes top above the 2nd node as soon as the 3rd node forms. I have used both techniques and I think you would have better luck with a SCROG if you did it this way as you get MUCH more side branching. Although if you did it UB's way essentially you would have 4 "stems" you could LST and if you did that I'm sure it would force the plant into side branching as the 4 stems would be growing horizontally instead of vertically. Now if you let your plant grow to the 3rd node then top it down to above the 2nd node you typically can not control the amount of main cola's the plant will put out. I did it to 3 of the plants I am currently growing and I ended up with 2 main cola's on one, 3 on another and 4 on the last one. But it does make the plants MUCH more bushier than UB's technique HOWEVER I prefer UB's technique. It just seems cleaner to me without all the side branching and 4 MASSIVE main cola's. As far as yield is concerned I have not harvested yet but will let you know when I do what the results on yield are. 

As of now tho it looks as if yeild is going to be VERY similar. My question is why SCROG? If space is an issue for you well let me just tell you this look on page 366 of this thread. You'll see a post titled "Bud Porn" That's my BubbleBerry topped the UB way and is ONLY 30" (2 and 1/2 ft.)tall. I know it looks much taller in the pic but it is completely possible to keep your plants under 3 feet using UB's technique and still get AMAZING results as far as yield is concerned. The only reason my plant ended up at 30" is because I gave her another month of veg time after I topped her but had I switched to 12/12 right after topping I'm positive she would have finished at about a foot and a half instead of two and a half. I just view SCROG, SOG and LST as unconventional, unnecessary and MUCH more work than what it's worth. I have yet to see a SCROG, SOG or LST'ed plant yield much more than my plants grown the UB way! Of course SCROG and SOG are all based on a ton of tiny plants being grown but when I base my grow on averages SCROG and SOG don't compare to UB's technique!


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## Life Goes On (May 5, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> Nope, those are the cotyledons. No lateral branches come from them. Kinda looks pale, so a Nitrogen rich food should help.


I wouldn't be so sure about your statement as I ALWAYS get branching from the cotyledon site. I just usually cut them off as they as well as the buds end up very small. But yes for the purpose of UB's technique NO you wouldn't want to count the cotyledon site as a node.


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## Danielsgb (May 5, 2011)

I've only seen one do that, but I've only done a couple dozen seeds. Usually I clone. I should have said something like 'rarely' or don't count on it. I was quick to answer since as you say it per his technique it didn't count.


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## medicine21 (May 6, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> I'd top in the same place but instead of waiting till the plant hits 6 nodes top above the 2nd node as soon as the 3rd node forms. I have used both techniques and I think you would have better luck with a SCROG if you did it this way as you get MUCH more side branching. Although if you did it UB's way essentially you would have 4 "stems" you could LST and if you did that I'm sure it would force the plant into side branching as the 4 stems would be growing horizontally instead of vertically. Now if you let your plant grow to the 3rd node then top it down to above the 2nd node you typically can not control the amount of main cola's the plant will put out. I did it to 3 of the plants I am currently growing and I ended up with 2 main cola's on one, 3 on another and 4 on the last one. But it does make the plants MUCH more bushier than UB's technique HOWEVER I prefer UB's technique. It just seems cleaner to me without all the side branching and 4 MASSIVE main cola's. As far as yield is concerned I have not harvested yet but will let you know when I do what the results on yield are.
> 
> As of now tho it looks as if yeild is going to be VERY similar. My question is why SCROG? If space is an issue for you well let me just tell you this look on page 366 of this thread. You'll see a post titled "Bud Porn" That's my BubbleBerry topped the UB way and is ONLY 30" (2 and 1/2 ft.)tall. I know it looks much taller in the pic but it is completely possible to keep your plants under 3 feet using UB's technique and still get AMAZING results as far as yield is concerned. The only reason my plant ended up at 30" is because I gave her another month of veg time after I topped her but had I switched to 12/12 right after topping I'm positive she would have finished at about a foot and a half instead of two and a half. I just view SCROG, SOG and LST as unconventional, unnecessary and MUCH more work than what it's worth. I have yet to see a SCROG, SOG or LST'ed plant yield much more than my plants grown the UB way! Of course SCROG and SOG are all based on a ton of tiny plants being grown but when I base my grow on averages SCROG and SOG don't compare to UB's technique!


Thanks for your insights. I don't know about "SCROG being based on growing tiny plants"... Have you seen the Under Current threads doing massive SCROG bushes? I have 5g bubble buckets and I am trying to figure out how to fill a 4x4 area or larger with just 4 plants. Space is not really an issue, but I want to fill this area with an even canopy and trying to figure out the best training technique to do so.


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## Life Goes On (May 6, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Thanks for your insights. I don't know about "SCROG being based on growing tiny plants"... Have you seen the Under Current threads doing massive SCROG bushes? I have 5g bubble buckets and I am trying to figure out how to fill a 4x4 area or larger with just 4 plants. Space is not really an issue, but I want to fill this area with an even canopy and trying to figure out the best training technique to do so.


Yes your right about scrog not being about tiny plants. Scrog is more of a LSTing technique but instead of using string to tie down your plants your using the screen. Either way this man see's it as extra unnecessary work! Let me tell ya my set up. I am growing in a 5x5 tent and 4 plants will pretty much fill that tent without any screens! Granted I could fit 9 in there total but that is WAY to many plants for that space as cramming that many plants into that little space limits light penetration to the bottom of the canopy to pretty much 0. With just the 4 plants in there it leaves enough room in between each plant to allow adequate light penetration to the bottom of the canopy! Also if canopy management is your goal then you came to the right thread! If 4 plants is all your growing in a 4x4 space then I would say use UB's technique with NO screen! I promise your canopy will be nice and even for MAXIMUM light penetration. Oh also if space is not an issue for you then I would recommend vegging for another month AFTER you top them. This allows for maximum plant size within the limits of my tent. But if you are aiming for a 3 month turn around time (or less) then you could switch to 12/12 right after topping. I prefer letting them veg the extra month as the wait is WELL worth it! Oh and if you are using bubble buckets another thing you might consider is WILL USING A SCREEN BE WORTH IT! I've never grown DWC but I can imagine that using bubble buckets in a scrog setup might be somewhat of a MAJOR pain in the ass when it comes to maintenance and upkeep!


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## Rcb (May 6, 2011)

hmm well i have read about this technique a couple times and ive read this whole thead probly twice and well i decided to do it a to a plant i had that had 6 nodes and well i did a FIM(fuck i missed) top and well where i topped it started to grow taller just the little stem peice it grew i would saw a cm and now it shot out two branchs but since i toped, the branchs undernearth caught up so i now havea 4 top is this is what is suppose to happen am i fine or should i do something about it? please and thank you


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## Uncle Ben (May 6, 2011)

SCROG and bubble buckets, arggggggggghhhhh. Can't think of anything more of a PITA than that.


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## medicine21 (May 6, 2011)

This is recirculating bubble buckets with a central rez that can be drained without lifting of course.


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## ozgirl (May 6, 2011)

Hi, can someone please help me with which is the first true node,I want to top today. As you can see there is the cotyledons, then a single point leaf above that, and then 2 opposing stems with 3 point leaves, and the next up is 2 opposing stems with 5 point leaves.

I think it is the stems with the 3 point leaves, but was unsure because they are small leaves, with less points then the others, and im not sure if that matters, sorry if this is a silly noob Q but I want to get it right.


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## Danielsgb (May 6, 2011)

Here's a pic that shows it I saw. Looking at the pic more, if it was mine I would cut above the 3rd node.
Daniels


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## ozgirl (May 6, 2011)

where you talking to me daniel?


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## Danielsgb (May 6, 2011)

Yep. Shoulda quoted yours, or at least said ozgirl to start.


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## drekoushranada (May 7, 2011)

Hey Uncle Ben for those who grow with a vertical light what is your take on topping?


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## Shadydude (May 7, 2011)

I made these videos, I hope this helps others.

[video=youtube;qJsScmG8iZU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJsScmG8iZU&feature=channel_video_title[/video]
[video=youtube;ssprGo2Ut2w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssprGo2Ut2w&feature=relmfu[/video]


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## Uncle Ben (May 7, 2011)

drekoushranada said:


> Hey Uncle Ben for those who grow with a vertical light what is your take on topping?


Only vertical light I do is the sun. Vertical or horizontal lighting, shouldn't make any difference. It's all about hormonal responses, see post #1.


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## xxRolandxx (May 7, 2011)

Thank you Uncle Ben! Here is the results of your topping technique (and a bit of a tribute with the picture). There is only 3 heads because 1 of the heads was used to make 10 clones early on. After the clones took she was flowered. My 3 headed beast, thanks to Uncle Bens Topping Tech.


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## ozgirl (May 7, 2011)

Ok thanks daniel, I have done it now


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## Uncle Ben (May 8, 2011)

xxRolandxx said:


> Thank you Uncle Ben! Here is the results of your topping technique (and a bit of a tribute with the picture). There is only 3 heads because 1 of the heads was used to make 10 clones early on. After the clones took she was flowered. My 3 headed beast, thanks to Uncle Bens Topping Tech.
> 
> View attachment 1589214


And a beast she is! Have fun!


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## Honkeycorn (May 9, 2011)

Good day UB,

Here are some pic`s from my first attempt of your topping technique, I tried it with four white widow`s


From yesterday: 




From a 2 weeks ago:




I was wondering if you could help me do a better job next time  

They all had 4 main cola`s, But the way three of them turned out was 2 shorter(3ft) and two taller(5ft) cola`s. The fourth plant ended up being all four identical height cola`s(4ft).

How can I ensure they turn out more uniform and all colas are closer to the same height?


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## Uncle Ben (May 9, 2011)

Honkeycorn said:


> They all had 4 main cola`s, But the way three of them turned out was 2 shorter(3ft) and two taller(5ft) cola`s. The fourth plant ended up being all four identical height cola`s(4ft).
> 
> How can I ensure they turn out more uniform and all colas are closer to the same height?


Good day. When it comes to plants, nothing is 100% guaranteed. Remember what I said about apical dominance? Hormone influences start at the top and work their way down. If you need to have identical main colas regarding height, then top for 2 rather than 4.

Nice job.

Tio


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## lbezphil2005 (May 9, 2011)

Honkeycorn said:


> Good day UB,
> 
> Here are some pic`s from my first attempt of your topping technique, I tried it with four white widow`s
> 
> ...


LST and Supercrop.


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## Honkeycorn (May 9, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Then top for 2 rather than 4.


Thanks for the quick reply! I believe I will try that with this strain next time as I do have more of these beans.

Im currently vegging some AK-47 and would like to try toppling agian, but am unsre if I should try the 4 main cols technique agian since its a new strain or just go straight for the 2 cola method?

Which strains do you find respond to topping the best/worst?

When selecting the cutting location, the "True" leaf sets start on the 1st 3 or 5 point leaf set correct? 

Meaning that first set on the stem are the cotyledons, then the second set are usually just a single pedal leaf thats way larger than the cotyledons(still assuming these do not count) then the third set are either 3 to 5 pedal leaves. These 3 to 5 pedal leaves to me are the "First true node" is this correct?

Or do the basic 1 pedal leaves count as the "First true node"?

Thanks,

Honkeycorn


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## Danielsgb (May 9, 2011)

True Leaf refers to it truly looks like the plant in question. So a true leaf for Cannabis is the serrated leaf we all know. Many if not all I've seen have 1 true then 3 true. Hope that helps.


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## Honkeycorn (May 9, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> True Leaf refers to it truly looks like the plant in question. So a true leaf for Cannabis is the serrated leaf we all know. Many if not all I've seen have 1 true then 3 true. Hope that helps.


So in other words, your saying the first leaf set after the cotyledons that are present on all these seedlings are their 1st True leaf set? Since they are serrated?


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## Life Goes On (May 9, 2011)

Honkeycorn said:


> So in other words, your saying the first leaf set after the cotyledons that are present on all these seedlings are their 1st True leaf set? Since they are serrated?
> 
> View attachment 1591516View attachment 1591517View attachment 1591519View attachment 1591518


That's what the man is saying.


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## Honkeycorn (May 9, 2011)

Life Goes On said:


> That's what the man is saying.


If this is true, which I would still love to hear it come from UB... then this means I cut the 3rd set on my white widows and not the second...

Please confirm for me UB...


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## Danielsgb (May 9, 2011)

Honkeycorn said:


> So in other words, your saying the first leaf set after the cotyledons that are present on all these seedlings are their 1st True leaf set? Since they are serrated?
> 
> View attachment 1591517


The 2nd pic shows it best. The 3rd node is just starting. BTW when up-canning I bury them as deep as I can. Just under the cotyledons.
Daniels


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## Uncle Ben (May 9, 2011)

The first thing folks need to learn is cannabis plant anatomy. Best references are Mel Franks' book or RC Clarke.

UB


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## ChroniCDooM (May 9, 2011)

LSD topped and on day 39 of flower:
View attachment 1592465


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## Honkeycorn (May 10, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> The first thing folks need to learn is cannabis plant anatomy. Best references are Mel Franks' book or RC Clarke.
> 
> UB


Thanks for at least pointing me in the right direction, hopefully I can dig them up!  If not I may be back....


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## The45King (May 10, 2011)

Topped ak and bubblegum in bloom


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## gantsa (May 10, 2011)

i topped a little girl in her 2nd week of vegetating so i would keep her short.. The result was to freak her out because she was not mature enough for this and after 2 days she started flowering (and 3-4 weeks later she was finished..giving approximately 6 gr. of bud.... )

Be careful not to chop a girl before the 4th or 5th node has shown up. Some strains (this was a pinapple chunk) need more time get stable..
I wonder if barney's farm gave me accidentally an autoflower seed..


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## Harrekin (May 13, 2011)

Uncle Ben, just a quick question for you. Iv been using your second node topping method religiously since I first tried it, and I made an observation I was wondering if you noticed too?

Do topped plants reach "sexual maturity" quicker than untopped plants? 

Just last few grows Iv noticed that asymmetrical branching starts to occur around the 5th node on each of the new growth tip with preflowers shortly afterwards, whereas my observations of untopped plants it seems to be around the 10th-12th node.

Thanks in advance!

EDIT: Also, after I topped my plants I raised the light up to promote a small amount of stretch (give the new branches a bit of space) before lowering the light again to resume dense noding...is this a waste of time do you reckon?


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## The45King (May 13, 2011)

Mine usually show around 5th or 6th node (28 days)when i run
20/4 or 18/6 scedule
Peace


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## Harrekin (May 13, 2011)

These are only about 3 weeks above soil tho.

You talking topped or untopped plants?


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## The45King (May 13, 2011)

Always topped


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## Harrekin (May 13, 2011)

Ahh so you noticed it too, awesome, thanks for your reply!


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## The45King (May 13, 2011)

roger waters (the wall) manchester arena may 20th


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## DankBudzzz (May 13, 2011)

Is their any advantage to topping vs. supercropping a 17 inch healthy plant. I'm planning to veg another few weeks and hav e a total height of 5 feet in my tent. The pot its in is a 5 gallon grow bag which is about 12 inches tall.


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## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2011)

Harrekin said:


> Uncle Ben, just a quick question for you. Iv been using your second node topping method religiously since I first tried it, and I made an observation I was wondering if you noticed too?
> 
> Do topped plants reach "sexual maturity" quicker than untopped plants?
> 
> ...


I think there might be sexual maturity based on ruderalis genes. Last couple of times I've grown they showed alternating nodes before I topped, had to be the rudy influence. I say any plant that shows adult leaves is ready to flower.

Good luck,
UB


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## halftime (May 15, 2011)

topped this one with this tecnique as well as these


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## ganjames (May 15, 2011)

Is this the only way to get a large yield? And you can do this with plants started from seed; it doesn't have to be a clone, right?

I'm about to start my first grow when I get my seeds in the mail tomorrow. I've been looking over all of the information on topping but I don't really understand it too much. I get that you cut the main stem but I can't seem to understand where to cut or when. Also the nodes and "true nodes" make no sense to me at all. It seems like a good idea if you don't have a tall grow room (my plants will have about 5ft of height to grow) but I'm afraid to do it without being 100% confident that I'm doing it right. Plus I get the feeling that I'll fuck up or something.

Would it be a better bet for me to just skip topping all together?


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## Danielsgb (May 15, 2011)

I don't mean to be a dick, but most of your questions are answered in the first few posts from UB. Just start from there, and then also look backwards from here. I showed pics of mine, and labeled pic a while ago too.
Daniels


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## ganjames (May 15, 2011)

Not exactly, There are countless threads on this. Each one telling people to do it differently, at different heights, nodes, times and with different techniques. Which Is why I'm hesitant to take scissors to my plants after they grow to begin with. And I haven't seen one picture actually showing a full plant with the exact spot shown where to cut.


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## ChroniCDooM (May 15, 2011)

I had all of the same questions a couple months ago. Followed UB's advice and cut above the second node. Yeah I was nervous also, but it all worked out. I think mine had about 8 nodes when I topped. It was easy dude. Just do it! Find the second node and chop it! Here is a pic of my LSD from a few days ago.


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## ganjames (May 15, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> I had all of the same questions a couple months ago. Followed UB's advice and cut above the second node. Yeah I was nervous also, but it all worked out. I think mine had about 8 nodes when I topped. It was easy dude. Just do it! Find the second node and chop it! Here is a pic of my LSD from a few days ago.


Looks good! would you say topping it kept it from growing taller? That's the main reason I want to do it since I don't have a whole lot of height. 

Here is a picture I found of an already topped plant (I picked the topped one because it was the only picture showing a clear view of the main stem) but I put that little red dot where I think I would be supposed to cut at. That would be my guess on where the "2nd true node" is. If I'm wrong (which I probably am) please correct me.

Or was the 2nd true node where it was already topped at? Ahhh I'm so confused! I just want to end up with good buds and a good yield.


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## ChroniCDooM (May 15, 2011)

ganjames said:


> Looks good! would you say topping it kept it from growing taller? That's the main reason I want to do it since I don't have a whole lot of height.
> 
> Here is a picture I found of an already topped plant (I picked the topped one because it was the only picture showing a clear view of the main stem) but I put that little red dot where I think I would be supposed to cut at. That would be my guess on where the "2nd true node" is. If I'm wrong (which I probably am) please correct me.
> 
> ...


Yeah I'd say it kept the LSD from getting taller. I have a Blue Mystic I topped at the same time. It produced 4 main colas but kept growing. I have about the same amount of overhead as you. This plant is over 5' tall. I have her tied over and twisted in all kinds of positions inside my cabinet. Not sure why she got so dam tall. Definitely twice as tall as the LSD right next to her. Shit the info on the blue mystic strain said it is a short plant which is why I bought the strain. Man if she had the right space she would be a Beaut with her four colas!

I could be wrong but that red dot appears to be the second node to me. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but that looks like where I topped mine!


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## J2M3S (May 15, 2011)

ganjames said:


> Not exactly, There are countless threads on this. Each one telling people to do it differently, at different heights, nodes, times and with different techniques. Which Is why I'm hesitant to take scissors to my plants after they grow to begin with. And I haven't seen one picture actually showing a full plant with the exact spot shown where to cut.


I disagree. This thread is this size due to people who fail to do thier own homework. The first few pages of this thread explains it all.


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## J2M3S (May 15, 2011)

ganjames said:


> Looks good! would you say topping it kept it from growing taller? That's the main reason I want to do it since I don't have a whole lot of height.
> 
> Here is a picture I found of an already topped plant (I picked the topped one because it was the only picture showing a clear view of the main stem) but I put that little red dot where I think I would be supposed to cut at. That would be my guess on where the "2nd true node" is. If I'm wrong (which I probably am) please correct me.
> 
> ...


Second true node is highlighted by the red dot.


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## ganjames (May 15, 2011)

J2M3S said:


> Second true note is highlighted by the red dot.


Alright thanks.

But for the other post, if what you meant was that I failed to do my own homework, sorry for that. I read up on a bunch of threads about topping and looked on other sites and on youtube. I saw people topping after inducing flowering and topping more than once and sometimes more than twice. I just wanted to be 100% certian that I would be doing it right. I wouldn't want to do something wrong and let the seeds I paid for to go to waste.


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## J2M3S (May 15, 2011)

ganjames said:


> Alright thanks.
> 
> But for the other post, if what you meant was that I failed to do my own homework, sorry for that. I read up on a bunch of threads about topping and looked on other sites and on youtube. I saw people topping after inducing flowering and topping more than once and sometimes more than twice. I just wanted to be 100% certian that I would be doing it right. I wouldn't want to do something wrong and let the seeds I paid for to go to waste.


I was not trying to be disrespectful. We all have been new, took some advice, and made mistakes but learned from them. You will find that most advise on this forum is suspect at best so I encourage everyone to try, and learn for your self. Your experience over both the short and long term will always be greater that any newbies, with 10 posts, advice. But rest assured, this thread is not one of them. Read the first few pages, look at the supplied images on where it should be done.

FYI - Even after reading this thread, I topped at the third node my first time, missing the second one as planned. I learned and now am ready to try it again with this grow.

Good look brother.


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## ganjames (May 16, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> Yeah I'd say it kept the LSD from getting taller. I have a Blue Mystic I topped at the same time. It produced 4 main colas but kept growing. I have about the same amount of overhead as you. This plant is over 5' tall. I have her tied over and twisted in all kinds of positions inside my cabinet. Not sure why she got so dam tall. Definitely twice as tall as the LSD right next to her. Shit the info on the blue mystic strain said it is a short plant which is why I bought the strain. Man if she had the right space she would be a Beaut with her four colas!
> 
> I could be wrong but that red dot appears to be the second node to me. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but that looks like where I topped mine!


Hey I just have a couple more questions that I haven't been able to find/get a straight answer for.

Will topping affect the THC% and overall quality of the strain negatively? What I mean is will 4 main colas still be as high in THC as just 1 main cola, and will the buds still be the same denseness and just as filled with trichomes as it would have been without topping?

How long did you wait after you topped before starting your 12/12 flowering cycle? And did you continue using the same feeding schedule that you were using prior to topping, after you topped?


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## Danielsgb (May 16, 2011)

Buds are same quality. When to flower is up to you. But a good week or more is my recommendation. Same feeding as before.


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## ganjames (May 16, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> Buds are same quality. When to flower is up to you. But a good week or more is my recommendation. Same feeding as before.


Thanks man, just got my seeds in the mail today and started germinating. I can't wait to grow and see how my yield turns out.


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## tafbang (May 18, 2011)

ganjames said:


> Alright thanks.
> 
> But for the other post, if what you meant was that I failed to do my own homework, sorry for that. I read up on a bunch of threads about topping and looked on other sites and on youtube. I saw people topping after inducing flowering and topping more than once and sometimes more than twice. I just wanted to be 100% certian that I would be doing it right. I wouldn't want to do something wrong and let the seeds I paid for to go to waste.


Bro, there are plenty of pictures and diagrams with exact places to cut, even on the 1st page it says that you can top the plant if it's a clone or not a clone.... I understand that you don't understand what anything is, but the damn picture with mark on where to cut is where you could possibly cut. you can cut the plant pretty much anywhere and it'll work. which is why you've heard so much damn information on different techniques... don't pour acid on your plant while your topping it and you should be fine.


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## Uncle Ben (May 18, 2011)

ganjames said:


> Thanks man, just got my seeds in the mail today and started germinating. I can't wait to grow and see how my yield turns out.


There are several topping points on a plant, all resulting in specific outcomes. I wanted more than 1 *main* cola, so I came up with this technique.

As an aside, I hope you didn't germ those seeds in a wet paper towel.

Good luck,
UB


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## ChroniCDooM (May 18, 2011)

Ok I gotta ask. What's wrong with this method UB? Just wondering your method of germinating? I have only germd 10 seeds. But all have germed using moist paper towels on a saucer inside a plastic bag on top of a power supply. So far this is the only method I've used to germ. Thanks UB!

Btw what do you do pre harvest? Do you flush? Would love to hear our take on flushing and what you do pre harvest! Thanks !


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## OoGaNomiX (May 18, 2011)

I like the shot glass till sunk then into medium where mine is sure to grow cubes and 5 days later it breaks surface. Oh also I put the spot glass under a black cup and put it up on the cable box


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## ganjames (May 18, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> There are several topping points on a plant, all resulting in specific outcomes. I wanted more than 1 *main* cola, so I came up with this technique.
> 
> As an aside, I hope you didn't germ those seeds in a wet paper towel.
> 
> ...


.

Yeah I'm curious about this as well. I didn't use paper towels but I used plain white napkins (3 on the bottom off a tupperware container, wet it, add seed. put 3 more on top of the seed and wet those. I used the napkins since there was no print and they were softer. 2 out of 4 had popped open the next day. the other two didn't but I planted all of them anyway, they'll probably just make their way out of the soil a day or two later than the ones that already sprouted.


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## Dr Gruber (May 18, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> Ok I gotta ask. What's wrong with this method UB? Just wondering your method of germinating? I have only germd 10 seeds. But all have germed using moist paper towels on a saucer inside a plastic bag on top of a power supply. So far this is the only method I've used to germ. Thanks UB!
> 
> Btw what do you do pre harvest? Do you flush? Would love to hear our take on flushing and what you do pre harvest! Thanks !


I think UB is just messing with you.


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## ChroniCDooM (May 18, 2011)

Dr Gruber said:


> I think UB is just messing with you.


Lol. Jokes on me! Not the first Time. Lol


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## ganjames (May 18, 2011)

haha well if it was just a joke, at least I can blame how gullible I get when I'm baked.


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## stlmatt (May 18, 2011)

Hello: Fellow Growers

I am getting ready to start my next grow and I have experimented with the UB topping method as well as Supercropping and both have done well in the past. I was just wondering if anyone had tried the 4 cola method and also suppercropped as I would think it would do great together. I would assume this should open up the plant and keep the canopy at a nice even level. Any thoughts on trying this, pics would be great if someone has done it. I just finished my AK48 grow and getting ready to start some Blackjack and was thinking of trying a combo of both methods (UB 4 Cola/Supercropping) 

Thanks: Stlmatt


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## Uncle Ben (May 18, 2011)

Germinating Cannabis Seeds (for Bio Growers)

Your seedlings will be alot better off if you germinate directly in soil - less handling and mechanical disturbance means less chance of physical damage to the plant's taproot (and roothairs) and less food reserves used to position itself due to the natural hormonal influence called Gravitropism. That translates into less food reserves used resulting in increased seedling vigor, especially in the very early critical stages of seedling development. 

This is my foolproof method for Cannabis Seed Germination in soil:

First, if harvesting seeds from my own crosses, I air-dry newly harvested seeds for a couple of weeks, and then store them in the refrigerator with a little rice. Cold-treatment seems to increase viability and germination rates, especially with indica-dom strains. I almost always get a 100% germination rate with quality seedstock.

Soak the seeds in plain water for 12 hours prior to planting to hydrate them, which will speed up germination. In general, good seeds will sink, bad seeds will remain floating (they contain air, not an embryo). I first sterilize seeds in a bleach solution (1 Tbsp. bleach/1 gallon of water) for 1/2 hour to kill any fungus residing on the seedcoat.

Sterilize enough *damp* fine soil with heat to germinate all of your seeds. You can do this by treating the damp soil to temps of (no more than) 200F for 20 mins in a conventional oven, or in a microwave oven on high for 2 minutes, while stirring a couple of times. Your goal is to get and hold the entire soil mix's temperature at 170F to 180F for about 20 minutes which can be monitored with a probe type thermometer. Let the mix cool thoroughly. This will insure that damp-off fungus spores have been killed in the soil mix. Make sure the soil mix is light and humusy (not real coarse). You can add a little sand or vermiculite to aid in drainage and weight. 

Buy some white 20oz styrofoam "drinking glasses", commonly called "Styro-Cups", and punch holes in the bottom (and side bottom) for drainage. I use a red-hot ice pick for this. These containers are 6 1/2" tall and will allow ample room for the taproot to grow before cotyledon emergence which will increase your seedling's vigor. The taproot (radicle) is already at least 4" long at the point of emergence - don't restrict it (in order to maximize seedling growth rate). Styro-Cups can be found on the shelf displaying picnic items at your local grocery store.

Fill the pots almost to the top with your soil mix, water well to settle the mix, take a pencil and make a small hole about 1/4" to 1/2" deep, NO deeper, and drop *one* seed in. Cover the seed with *fine* soil, only enough to top up the hole, firm lightly with your finger, and lightly water until water runs freely thru the drain holes. Place in a warm spot around 80F/26C. Do NOT cover the cup with saran wrap or anything else. The seed has been hydrated from the soaking and will germinate soon. This container should not require further watering until the seedling is up and running.

During the first couple of days, mist the top soil surface lightly (if need be), never allowing the top to crust over, but not to the point that the medium stays waterlogged which will invite pythium rot (damp-off). "Less is more" at this point. Do NOT water this pot any more until the seedling is up, and only if it needs it at the point of emergence. Again, no need to cover with plastic wrap as the radicle (taproot) will grow at least 4" before the cotyledons emerge from the soil. IOW, even though you can't see it, the plant's taproot (radicle) is seeking and finding moisture at the container's lower soil levels. I cannot emphasize this enough. The seedling will emerge anywhere from 2 to 10 days from the time you sowed it.

That's all to it! With good care, your faves will be ready to transplant within 1 to 2 weeks, and will easily slip out of the "cup" with a solid rootball that will never know it's been disturbed if potted up gently and quickly. Move up to a final pot of 3 to 5 gallons to sex and finish.

An effective transplant solution can be made using (no more than) 1 teaspoon of a 15-30-15 fert and 10 drops of Superthrive per gallon of water. Take note regarding the immediate growth spurt after this transition!

Good luck,
Uncle Ben


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## Dr Gruber (May 18, 2011)

I guess i was wrong...sorry UB and thanks for the lesson!


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## Uncle Ben (May 19, 2011)

Dr Gruber said:


> I guess i was wrong...sorry UB and thanks for the lesson!


You're welcome. It's not a matter of getting them to germ (technically speaking..... breaking out of dormancy), that's easy. It's an issue of getting the seedling off to the best possible start that you can. I'm in the camp that once cannabis is stunted, it never fully recovers. I've seen it in other plants too, like bell peppers. You want to start fast and finish without any vigor issues.

Growing is all about cultural tweeks. The more you master EACH step of the way, the better you'll do overall.

UB


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## Dr Gruber (May 19, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> You're welcome. It's not a matter of getting them to germ (technically speaking..... breaking out of dormancy), that's easy. It's an issue of getting the seedling off to the best possible start that you can. I'm in the camp that once cannabis is stunted, it never fully recovers. I've seen it in other plants too, like bell peppers. You want to start fast and finish without any vigor issues.
> 
> Growing is all about cultural tweeks. The more you master EACH step of the way, the better you'll do overall.
> 
> UB


I havent had any problems with the paper towel method except once when i dropped the seed on the floor and killed it. If i had gone straight into soil i wouldnt have had that problem so im going to start doing it like you said. It is alot more work but as you say worth it in the end.Thanks again!


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## ChroniCDooM (May 19, 2011)

Right on UB! Thanks for taking the time to break it down like that! Much appreciated! If you don't mind I would love to hear your thoughts on pre harvest flushing. I got the feeling some pages back that you were against flushing pre harvest. Sorry if I'm off the mark on that. What do you do when the time is near to harvest? Anything special you do? I would appreciate any insight you can give a first year grower! Thanks.


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## Uncle Ben (May 19, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> Right on UB! Thanks for taking the time to break it down like that! Much appreciated! If you don't mind I would love to hear your thoughts on pre harvest flushing. I got the feeling some pages back that you were against flushing pre harvest. Sorry if I'm off the mark on that. What do you do when the time is near to harvest? Anything special you do? I would appreciate any insight you can give a first year grower! Thanks.


Flushing to accomplish whatever noobs are trying to accomplish is another cannabis myth. You don't flush anything, unless you're a toilet or car mechanic.


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## Danielsgb (May 19, 2011)

I think I read your ditty on how you plant seeds. Was it on another of your threads? I re-read it, and swear I remembered seeing it before. I plant my seeds right into the soil for those reasons. More than likely that was why I never tried the other ways. Mainly I don't like trying to plant a seed with the tap root since it seems like asking for a fuck up.
Daniels


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## lbezphil2005 (May 20, 2011)

+reps to uncle ben, once again!! I've used your seed germination method forever, bro!


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## fasteddy714 (May 20, 2011)

Thanks uncle ben-i use sog,this'll increase yeild a shitload too,i'm cutting in the exact right place now too.i have cut 'm on the 5th. & 6th. Node and plan on going to the higher nodes and see what'll happen, it may be a bit better but who knows- so i'll keep ya posted.thanks for the insight-later-


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## Uncle Ben (May 20, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> I think I read your ditty on how you plant seeds. Was it on another of your threads? I re-read it, and swear I remembered seeing it before. I plant my seeds right into the soil for those reasons. More than likely that was why I never tried the other ways. Mainly I don't like trying to plant a seed with the tap root since it seems like asking for a fuck up.
> Daniels


Yep, it is asking for trouble. My germ ditty is a little overkill but for noobs it's best to give the caveats.



lbezphil2005 said:


> +reps to uncle ben, once again!! I've used your seed germination method forever, bro!


Good. It's what the normal nursery industry does. 



fasteddy714 said:


> Thanks uncle ben-i use sog,this'll increase yeild a shitload too,i'm cutting in the exact right place now too.i have cut 'm on the 5th. & 6th. Node and plan on going to the higher nodes and see what'll happen, it may be a bit better but who knows- so i'll keep ya posted.thanks for the insight-later-


Good luck fellers!


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## Mr. Snow (May 20, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Gotta spoon fed 'em. If folks don't get it based on my photos and detailed explanations and your excellent graph, they never will.
> 
> Tio



Yeah that's me, the thing is, I know i'm like so try to blend in and let others ask the silly questions again hahahahaha. I got the picture though, just to re-confirm what i...knew.

Awesome man, thanks for this, greatly appreciated.
All the best.


Peace.


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## Waiakeauka (May 22, 2011)

fasteddy714 said:


> Thanks uncle ben-i use sog,this'll increase yeild a shitload too,i'm cutting in the exact right place now too.i have cut 'm on the 5th. & 6th. Node and plan on going to the higher nodes and see what'll happen, it may be a bit better but who knows- so i'll keep ya posted.thanks for the insight-later-


Do you have any young and mature pictures of the the plant after cutting between the 5th and 6th node? I am curious to see what the plant looks like and how many tops it has.


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## mrorganics (May 22, 2011)

i know im a noob but is this recommended if im growing from seed? i dont wanna stress em too much to hermie but im also planning on doing a longer veg cycle, and this technique i would leave the cotyledons and let em fall off like usual and just top above the single bladed leaf and the 3 bladed or 5 bladed leaf on the main stem the 2nd true node? wouldnt i wanna cut off the bottom single one and use the 2nd and 3rd node? thanks

MR O


edit: how mature do i want my 5th and 6th node or do i just wait till they are forming???


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## Uncle Ben (May 22, 2011)

mrorganics said:


> i know im a noob but is this recommended if im growing from seed? i dont wanna stress em too much to hermie but im also planning on doing a longer veg cycle, and this technique i would leave the cotyledons and let em fall off like usual and just top above the single bladed leaf and the 3 bladed or 5 bladed leaf on the main stem the 2nd true node? wouldnt i wanna cut off the bottom single one and use the 2nd and 3rd node? thanks
> 
> MR O
> 
> ...


Please do not post until you have at least read my first post and several pages. 

Thanks


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## Jack Package (May 22, 2011)

Hey UB,
Thanks for all your useful information i've come across! I have 4 plants in 15L air-pots about 6 weeks into veg in a 1m x 1m tent. I have 4 main colas on three of the girls after using your topping technique successfully, however the other plant is a complete go-slow. She is taking forever and looks 3 weeks behind the others, although still healthy. 
My question is, in terms of yield, would i be better off giving the space to the 3 further developed plants and let them properly bush out, or should I just leave the runt and see what she could yield? It just seems a waste of tent space...
Thanks in advance!


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## JohnTheFarmer (May 22, 2011)

Just stopping by to pay homage to the master, Uncle Ben. I've been gardening and farming for years and I have to say that I still learn new things every day. Uncle Ben's posts are right on the money, and from reading this thread learned to top my "favorite plants" for 4 colas. Don't always get the 4, due to variances in strains/plant genetics etc, but much more often than not there are four large colas of nugginess.

All hail Uncle Ben!


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## Uncle Ben (May 22, 2011)

Jack Package said:


> Hey UB,
> Thanks for all your useful information i've come across! I have 4 plants in 15L air-pots about 6 weeks into veg in a 1m x 1m tent. I have 4 main colas on three of the girls after using your topping technique successfully, however the other plant is a complete go-slow. She is taking forever and looks 3 weeks behind the others, although still healthy.
> My question is, in terms of yield, would i be better off giving the space to the 3 further developed plants and let them properly bush out, or should I just leave the runt and see what she could yield? It just seems a waste of tent space...
> Thanks in advance!


I'd tell the runt to "hit the road, Jack". 



JohnTheFarmer said:


> Just stopping by to pay homage to the master, Uncle Ben. I've been gardening and farming for years and I have to say that I still learn new things every day. Uncle Ben's posts are right on the money, and from reading this thread learned to top my "favorite plants" for 4 colas. Don't always get the 4, due to variances in strains/plant genetics etc, but much more often than not there are four large colas of nugginess.
> 
> All hail Uncle Ben!


Welcome to the thread. Glad things are working out for you!


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## Jack Package (May 23, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'd tell the runt to "hit the road, Jack".


Many thanks!


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## xxRolandxx (May 23, 2011)

Hey Uncle Ben are you the same Uncle Ben who is referenced in the Marijuana Horticulture Growers Bible?


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## Uncle Ben (May 23, 2011)

xxRolandxx said:


> Hey Uncle Ben are you the same Uncle Ben who is referenced in the Marijuana Horticulture Growers Bible?


yes........


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## Waiakeauka (May 23, 2011)

Will the yield increase if we top after the 3rd or 4th node?


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## JohnTheFarmer (May 23, 2011)

Please read the thread. Your question is covered in the first few pages.....


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## xxRolandxx (May 23, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> yes........



That is so cool! I saw the picture on page 70 that said "This photo of the foot-long fibrous mass of roots was taken after Uncle Ben shook off most of the semi-dry soil"..I was like WTF!

Great book by the way, it is really helpful!


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## Waiakeauka (May 23, 2011)

JohnTheFarmer said:


> Please read the thread. Your question is covered in the first few pages.....


I did read it and all it said was that you would get a bushier plant. It didnt mention if the yield would increase or decrease.


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## The45King (May 24, 2011)

Waiakeauka said:


> I did read it and all it said was that you would get a bushier plant. It didnt mention if the yield would increase or decrease.


Yes topping increases yield


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## The45King (May 24, 2011)

Bubblegum


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## mrorganics (May 24, 2011)

I checked and still couldn't find info if this tequnique would stress a plant from seed. And about the distribution of the hormones does that only affect the bottom 2 branches or if I was to lollipop the bottom 4 and keep 5 and 6 it would just bush out. Am I correct? ? Please if I'm incorrect lead me to the info I searched the first 25 pages this thread is like a book.


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## Danielsgb (May 24, 2011)

mrorganics said:


> I checked and still couldn't find info if this technique would stress a plant from seed. And about the distribution of the hormones does that only affect the bottom 2 branches or if I was to lollipop the bottom 4 and keep 5 and 6 it would just bush out. Am I correct? ? Please if I'm incorrect lead me to the info I searched the first 25 pages this thread is like a book.


No stress. The auxins redistribute since there is now no apical meristem. The lower branches now stretch up to become the new tops. But when you leave more than 2 nodes (aka 4 lateral meristems) it becomes more of a bush shape. 6, 8, or 10 branches don't react like 2 or 4. BTW lolipopping is a curse word to UB. If you remove vegetative matter you lose the energy they would have made. Hope that helps.
Daniels


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## mrorganics (May 24, 2011)

Ok cuz I just got 4 indica dominant strains and the last thing I wanna do is stress them but topping falls in line with how I would like to grow and see what they can do I just didn't wanna mess them up since this is my first time with good genetics. Thanks for the info, I was just nervous. About cutting off so much so how mature do you need the next 3 nodes, if I have 6 forming, or the leaves for 6 coming in am I ready or do I want my 5th and 6th branch to be grow out more maybe to like a inch long? Thanks for the help man


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## Uncle Ben (May 24, 2011)

mrorganics said:


> Thanks for the info, I was just nervous.


If you think you're gonna mess up your plants and are so nervous and stressed yourself about this simple topping technique, don't do it.

UB


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## Danielsgb (May 24, 2011)

mrorganics said:


> Ok cuz I just got 4 indica dominant strains and the last thing I wanna do is stress them but topping falls in line with how I would like to grow and see what they can do I just didn't wanna mess them up since this is my first time with good genetics. Thanks for the info, I was just nervous. About cutting off so much so how mature do you need the next 3 nodes, if I have 6 forming, or the leaves for 6 coming in am I ready or do I want my 5th and 6th branch to be grow out more maybe to like a inch long? Thanks for the help man


I'm not sure what your question is. I think that answer is in UB's first couple posts.
Here is a shot of a Tangerine Dream I topped for 4 Main Colas. Yea, it seems like that is a waste of a lot, but you need the strong root system. You can get a good clone from that apical meristem. Recovery is quick.
Daniels

One week later.

Here is what happens when you cut above the 3rd node.


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## mrorganics (May 24, 2011)

Great info and pics, I see what ur sayin about bushin out lol. +rep


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## The45King (May 24, 2011)

Here's an ak from seed topped at second node


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## Shadydude (May 24, 2011)

I found this video on Uncle Ben's Topping Technique

[video=youtube;Mtrr8GUkXF4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtrr8GUkXF4&feature=channel_video_title[/video]

Watch more videos here
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGodbodystyle#g/u


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## Harrekin (May 24, 2011)

I take UB's point on board about lollipopping and wondered why ALL the vegetation is removed from the bottom 1/3...why not just remove the branches and leave the leaves alone? Would this work UB? It's purely an academic question,I wouldn't risk the plant numbers for SOG when I can use your topping technique and fill my tent with just 5. Thanks in advance man.


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## Harrekin (May 25, 2011)

Why'd he get banned?!


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## gypsygreen (May 25, 2011)

Jack Package said:


> Hey UB,
> I have 4 plants in 15L air-pots about 6 weeks into veg in a 1m x 1m tent. I have 4 main colas on three of the girls after using your topping technique


Not trying to nitpick, but as this is the ADVANCED cultivation section, we should try to get the terminology correct. You have 4 main leaders, not colas. Colas are the lead flower clusters and since you are still in veg, you have none yet. Again, not trying to bust your balls or anything...a lot of folks get this wrong .

Uncle Ben: I did your technique by accident several years ago and couldn't remember what the hell I did to duplicate it. Thanks to you I can now do this for every canna I grow out now. I belong to a UK forum also and I hope you dont mind if I explain this technique to them...giving you the credit of course. They are a great bunch of guys and gals struggling to grow out decent bud in the shitty UK weather and growing season, and Im sure they will benifit from this as I can see less of a mold issue, and mold is the main killer there with the damn rain all fall.


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## The45King (May 25, 2011)

if ub leaves then so do i and many others so sort it


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## Danielsgb (May 25, 2011)

Harrekin said:


> Why'd he get banned?!


They say spamming from the additive thread, but I say they hate veterans telling how not to waste money on BS Canna specific fertilizers.



gypsygreen said:


> Not trying to nitpick, but as this is the ADVANCED cultivation section, we should try to get the terminology correct. You have 4 main leaders, not colas. Colas are the lead flower clusters and since you are still in veg, you have none yet. Again, not trying to bust your balls or anything...a lot of folks get this wrong .


I think I can say he knows the correct terminology, but that is confusing to many. He had to answer what a 'true node' is many times because he couldn't edit his original to clarify. 4 Main Future Colas sounds odd. You are right that would be the correct botanical term, but few would recognize it.
Daniels


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## rantz (May 25, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> They say spamming from the additive thread, but I say they hate veterans telling how not to waste money on BS Canna specific fertilizers.
> 
> I think I can say he knows the correct terminology, but that is confusing to many. He had to answer what a 'true node' is many times because he couldn't edit his original to clarify. 4 Main Future Colas sounds odd. You are right that would be the correct botanical term, but few would recognize it.
> Daniels


Uncle Ben was banned? What is the world coming to?


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## cannafire (May 25, 2011)

The45King said:


> if ub leaves then so do i and many others so sort it


Wow, talk about lossing a valuable asset.


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## Harrekin (May 25, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> They say spamming from the additive thread, but I say they hate veterans telling how not to waste money on BS Canna specific fertilizers.


 Nice hidden dig at me there, but no need to be a dick, me and UB had a somewhat heated debate on that thread but its definately not the sort of thing to get someone banned...if the mods came down heavy on him, then they cant use that thread as an excuse, its was heated but mainly civilised.


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## cannafire (May 25, 2011)

*Just sent Admin a message saying to bring back Uncle Ben, hope you all do the same, looks like my buddy MediMary was banned. His little rep star is gone now.*

https://www.rollitup.org/members/admin-1.html


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## xxRolandxx (May 25, 2011)

If UB is gone...please ban me and I will remove all my content and posts ASAP. Fuck that! This dude is not only a legend, but an amazingly accessible person. Always willing to answer a question or post some good info.

This is seriously stupid.


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## PakaloloHui (May 25, 2011)

stlmatt said:


> Hello: Fellow Growers
> 
> I am getting ready to start my next grow and I have experimented with the UB topping method as well as Supercropping and both have done well in the past. I was just wondering if anyone had tried the 4 cola method and also suppercropped as I would think it would do great together. I would assume this should open up the plant and keep the canopy at a nice even level. Any thoughts on trying this, pics would be great if someone has done it. I just finished my AK48 grow and getting ready to start some Blackjack and was thinking of trying a combo of both methods (UB 4 Cola/Supercropping)
> 
> Thanks: Stlmatt


If you look at my thread or even my Bonzai White Shark photo albulm, you can see how I got 4+ tops with just one cut, then LST following. I made my first cut between the 7-8 node on my short stalky girls, why I chose here is because of the nodal spacing, the 5th node branching was almost as tall as the 6th node branching.

These are pics from yesterday.


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## Waiakeauka (May 25, 2011)

Danielsgb,

What plant yielded more, top after the 2nd node or top after the 3rd node?


Aloha


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## ray420365 (May 25, 2011)

born2killspam said:


> It energizes you and makes you feel more alert/smarter kind of.. Its nothing like that heavy fog that indica casts over your brain..
> When I smoke good sativa I want to go running, or climb trees etc..


Hey!, I climb trees too 

Im going back to page 7 to read on.. Drink & Smoke responsibly!


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## Danielsgb (May 25, 2011)

Waiakeauka said:


> Danielsgb,
> 
> What plant yielded more, top after the 2nd node or top after the 3rd node?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure which would. The thing is so many other things can effect yield. Of these 2 Tangerine Dream, the one topped at the 3rd node isn't doing as well. She has been a PIA all along. First it was a cal/mag deficiency, I added some Epsom tea but now I'm wondering if that is causing an antagonist issue with the N uptake. She's cloratic.(sp. ?), not the deeper green. Still 4 to 5 weeks from harvest on these 2.
But all things equal, I would say they are pretty even. Like the 4 Colas would end up weighing like the 6 smaller colas.
I do know this in the beginning of my growing I did a test on 2 clones. 1 natural, 1 topped UB style for 4 Mains. I'd have to review the journal as it's been a year, but if I remember right the topped on was about 7 grams more. I think they were in the 1 oz each.
Daniels


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## Waiakeauka (May 25, 2011)

PakaloloHui,

How old your plants? Bra I gotta say the buggha is looking killas! How long ago you ben since you top da buggha?


Mahalo Nui Loa


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## Danielsgb (May 25, 2011)

Waiakeauka said:


> PakaloloHui,
> 
> How old your plants? Bra I gotta say the buggha is looking killas! How long ago you ben since you top da buggha?
> 
> ...


You'd have to see the whole journal to be sure, but 6 weeks veg. Flowering started 4-9 so about 6 weeks for a supposed 10 week strain. They are suppose to really pack on the weight in the last couple weeks. Here's one from last set of pics.
*Tangerine Dream from AMA*


Daniels


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## PakaloloHui (May 25, 2011)

Waiakeauka said:


> PakaloloHui,
> 
> How old your plants? Bra I gotta say the buggha is looking killas! How long ago you ben since you top da buggha?
> 
> ...


Aloha, 
Thanks, 
When I got my license back from my grower I started the girls the first week of April.
Today the 2 girls are 54 days old.
They were started in 12 oz. party cups for 21 days under a 2' 4 bulb T-5 with many others.
On day 22 some were culled out, then the rest were transplanted into 1/2 gallon grow bags for another 15 days under a 4' 6 bulb.
On day 36 I transplanted 3 plants into 3 gallon pots under the 4' 6 bulb T-5 and gave the remainder plants away to 2 other patients.

On this same day of transplant I had also topped them, between the 7th and 8th node. They were around 9" tall after the topping.

I also stripped the first 3 sets of branches. So I have on 1 girl 3 sets of branches(I broke the 2 top branches after topping) that are nodes 4,5,6 (only one set of these branches have been topped to make up for my damage). And the other girl has nodes 4,5,6,7 left for growth, un-topped since the first, just LST'd. 

Oh yeah I also lost 1 of the plants along the way, it turned out to show male pre-flowers so I cut it, now I am down to the 2 girls and 4 auto's that are 8 days now, under the 2' T-5.

So they have been topped for 18 days now.

Since then I have kept bending LST training them, I have also done daily leaf tucking for more light exposure for the new growth.

They are 10" tall now from keeping LST'd and will no longer be LST'd. I will allow a few more days of vertical growth so the bent tops can get some good upright growth and start to flower them this weekend.

I will use the T-5 but switch to the red bulbs of course.


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## The45King (May 26, 2011)

ive done this technique all ways now 2nd node from seed gets ya 4 main cola's 2 will be a few inch lower 
and less weight at 3rd node ya get 6 cola's 4 mains and 2 crap ones the best way ive found upto now
is to top at 3rd node and take the bottom 2 cuttings off to keep,leaving the 4 mains but these 4 mains 
are much more equal in weight and height (fat)

Thanks to ub again your 2 threads cover jst about everything 
Peace out


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## DankBudzzz (May 27, 2011)

I was really considering trying this technique out this round but never could bring myself to do it. I think I will achieve similar results without topping though with supercropping and lst.


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## sixstring2112 (May 28, 2011)

Harrekin said:


> Nice hidden dig at me there, but no need to be a dick, me and UB had a somewhat heated debate on that thread but its definately not the sort of thing to get someone banned...if the mods came down heavy on him, then they cant use that thread as an excuse, its was heated but mainly civilised.


you got U.B. banned? WTF? he was the only reason i logged on anymore,fuck,shit,piss ,dick! hey fdd gimme an email when you bring him back,six has left the building,peace.


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## R3DROCk9 (May 29, 2011)

jus bend down stem instead of topping at the second node and youll get 5, thats right FIVE, main colas instead of four...fuHkn noobs

lol


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## 1oldgoat (May 29, 2011)

R3DROCk9 said:


> jus bend down stem instead of topping at the second node and youll get 5, thats right FIVE, main colas instead of four...fuHkn noobs
> 
> lol


That sounds like a good idea. Have you tried it, or are you just theorizing, based on UB's technique/


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## R3DROCk9 (May 29, 2011)

yeah i tried it, and asked him long time ago in this thread waaay bacc @ the beginning somewhere....or middle...cant quite remember


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## DankBudzzz (May 29, 2011)

Look at my pictures above, The 1st and last picture is of supercropped plant like the above poster described. I easily ahve 4-5 main colas.


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## lbezphil2005 (May 30, 2011)

Harrekin said:


> Nice hidden dig at me there, but no need to be a dick, me and UB had a somewhat heated debate on that thread but its definately not the sort of thing to get someone banned...if the mods came down heavy on him, then they cant use that thread as an excuse, its was heated but mainly civilised.


He wasn't digging on you, He's saying that the greedy jerkoffs here like their money more than they like their information to be truthful. He got banned because he was dissing one of their frigging sponsors, thats it. As usual, money talks truth walks!! At least, here at riu!! Uncle ben has always had it out for highpriced "cannabis specific" nutes that are just frigging molasses watered down with a little nitrogen added!


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## Harrekin (May 30, 2011)

I didnt once hit report so why you getting all worked up with me? And dont start me on the nutes argument, he seems to have it out for everything that doesnt fit into his little "paradigm", perhaps thats why he got banned? I respect the grower, but his attitude is pretty foul.


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## lbezphil2005 (May 31, 2011)

Harrekin said:


> I didnt once hit report so why you getting all worked up with me? And dont start me on the nutes argument, he seems to have it out for everything that doesnt fit into his little "paradigm", perhaps thats why he got banned? I respect the grower, but his attitude is pretty foul.


Dude, the only person getting worked up at all is you. this is what the guy said, and this is how you answered, quoted for your convenience:





Originally Posted by *Danielsgb*
"They say spamming from the additive thread, but I say they hate veterans telling how not to waste money on BS Canna specific fertilizers.

Nice hidden dig at me there, but no need to be a dick, me and UB had a somewhat heated debate on that thread but its definately not the sort of thing to get someone banned...if the mods came down heavy on him, then they cant use that thread as an excuse, its was heated but mainly civilised. " 

So where is the "hidden dig" there, and why is he being a dick talking about the sponsors telling noobs not to waste money? Get a grip, bro, stop being so defensive especially when there is no harm there is no foul!

Sounds like you are a little pissed at ub for arguing about nutes, or the way you use them. Smoke a joint and relax, dude , life is too short for stupid shit like this.​


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## Derple (May 31, 2011)

how much would that yield?


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## rumblegrow (May 31, 2011)

Uncle Ben is the man, can't hate on him for speaking the truth.


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## Shadydude (Jun 1, 2011)

[video=youtube;Mtrr8GUkXF4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtrr8GUkXF4[/video]


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## The45King (Jun 1, 2011)

Thanks to ub its a perma technique for me works
everytime and gettin buds this size from a 250w its
a no brainer hope to see ub around again sometime


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## DankBudzzz (Jun 2, 2011)

No offense Shady but prodding and poking your plant with sheers to train them down isn't the best way. LST is best done when you simply tie it down once and get the stress over with. I know plants are resilient but it can't be helping them at all by doing what your doing but that's just my opinion. Otherwise they look great


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## DankBudzzz (Jun 2, 2011)

Started flowering the beasts today


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## chb444220 (Jun 3, 2011)

I usually FIM instead of topping. This seems to work much better for me. I FIM'ed this plant and then tied down a few of the branches to let in light and ended up with 7 tops. Theres 6 main ones showing... adn the 7th one is hangin a lil lower than the others. but the funny thing is that the one that hanging lower than the rest is the fattest one. lol. im gonna tie it up soo its evern with the rest. I also did a lil bit of super cropping as well. (bending a couple branches over) Its good to do a little bit of each..I FIM'ed 1st.. then i bent 2 branches over..then tied down 2-3 branches.. heres the pics 3 Weeks into flowering.


*Warlock (FIM'ed/LST/Super Cropping)*







heres another pic of a sensi star i got going. i monster cropped. (took the clone about 3-4 weeks into flowering) and i also FIM'ed this 1. it originally had 3 tops. but i cut off one of the tops as a clone.

*Sensi Star

*


If ur interested in seein more pics or see the rest of the grow click on my signature and check out my journal. i have quite a few strains going at the moment. including a Floja thats almost 7 weeks into flowering and is ALL purple.. looks pretty cool. its my 1st purple plant sooo im proud of it. 

Enjoyyyyyyy​


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## doogleef (Jun 3, 2011)

Totally off topic but that warlock needs fed..... 


UB spoke the truth about canna-hype and the whole industry. He will be missed greatly. Pretty peeved he got banned but I was not there and knowing but ppl involved I imagine it got pretty heated. FDD is a good guy just trying to protect what rolli and the guys built here .. in the end that means sponsors ... unless all you greatful stoners are willing to "donate" tot he cause? No? K ...


Carry On ...


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## boondockpatriot (Jun 3, 2011)

Hey posted under Newbie and general marjuana growing, but not much action. My plants are 18 days into veg from clones. Some clones (quarazytran) are short and squatty with plenty of tops. The powerkush are longer christmas tree types. Too late to "top' the plant as this is usually done when clone has 5 to 6 internodes and you take it off at the true 2nd, for additional tops. 

I have 15 of them in a 4x8 tent with 2 600 watt hids, they are getting bushy and crowded..so should flup soon.

Questions are:
If I FIM now, should I give more veg time before flipping, in order to develop those additional sights?

For the short squatties, with several tops, should I even bother Fimming them?

Also, supposed to keep the bottom third of plant bare, to keep everything focused up top, however had multiple branches at the base that are quite thick.
Is it too late 18 days into VEG to prune off the bottom third of plant?
Thanks anyone!!!!


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## Agent 47 (Jun 4, 2011)

boondockpatriot said:


> Questions are:
> If I FIM now, should I give more veg time before flipping, in order to develop those additional sights?
> 
> For the short squatties, with several tops, should I even bother Fimming them?


I don't see why it's too late to top, you want your plants to have a healthy root system and large healthy leaves. I would possibly top and use it for a clone. FIMing is unpredictable at best.



boondockpatriot said:


> Also, supposed to keep the bottom third of plant bare


Says who?


boondockpatriot said:


> ....to keep everything focused up top, however had multiple branches at the base that are quite thick.
> Is it too late 18 days into VEG to prune off the bottom third of plant?
> Thanks anyone!!!!


I can tell your new to growing, your best bet is to several pages into this thread where Uncle Ben replies to peoples questions. One will learn VERY quickly what horticulture is all about by "lurking" on his posts. Leaves provide energy for your plants, by removing the bottom third of your plant, your reducing it's ability to manufacture energy. You're not feeding the buds with your fertilizers, the leaves are feeding the plant. Removing the bottom third of your plant 18 days into veg would be detrimental to your plants maximum potential

I'm sure you've also been told that you need cannabis super fertilizer magic juices as well. 

*I've been there and done it. I only wish I had the opportunity that you have right now. You have a chance to skip years of frustrating trial and error and the very impractical forum culture. You don't have to complicate things, it's rather simple.*

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/433131-boosters-additives-really-necessary.html Check out this thread and others, the fog will clear.


EDIT: Doogleef. I feel as if my mentor has been shot down by institution. UB has achieved Martyr status at RIU. IMO


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## Danielsgb (Jun 4, 2011)

Agent 47 is right on boondockpatriot. You need to pour over UB's threads to learn about the plant, NOT forum myths.

Agent 47, I agree on the BS of spoonfeeding Noobs, and banning UB, Bricktop, & Riddleme. There went near a century of veteran knowledge.

Daniels


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## JJGG (Jun 4, 2011)

i hope this shi.t works i just took the hat off my cali orange, scary shit. can i use the top part i cut off as a clone by chance?


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## JJGG (Jun 4, 2011)

signs point to yes.


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## Danielsgb (Jun 4, 2011)

Yes you can clone the top.


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## chb444220 (Jun 4, 2011)

yeaa and ive realized using the top as a clone creates a pretty nice adn sturdy plant as well. well in my case anywayz. i took the top of a plant adn a side branch. adn the top clone grew alot better/healthier adn rooted faster.


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## JJGG (Jun 7, 2011)

think it may actually be working. WHOOOPIE!!!! i'm just prayin to the ganjagods its a gurrrl...


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## chb444220 (Jun 7, 2011)

JJGG said:


> View attachment 1637143View attachment 1637144
> 
> think it may actually be working. WHOOOPIE!!!! i'm just prayin to the ganjagods its a gurrrl...


looks good so far man. =) nuthin can really go terribly wrong wen topping.. worse comes to worse... u dont get 2+ tops... u end up with 1 again. never really heard of that happening... im sure it'll be fine. and once u see the final result.... youll end up doing it to ur other plants as well. lol


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## xxRolandxx (Jun 7, 2011)

Fuck RollitUp. Im deleting my account, removing my attachments and getting the fuck out of here. Why they ban some amazing guys like Uncle Ben is beyond me. Their silence on the matter is gestapo-esqu.

(oh and fuck Godwin as well for my violation of the "rule")


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## joco (Jun 10, 2011)

I had a plant that i started and it suffered some nute burn in the beggining and the produced 3 weird leaves...i transplanted and buried it up to the starter leaves....took a week and a half then took of like crazy and then just to day i noticed it had two main colas and i never topped it and im not sure whether or not to try topping those or if i should leave it alone????


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 10, 2011)

These are from my current grow.


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## ChroniCDooM (Jun 13, 2011)

What up people? Just stopping by to show off my harvest. I topped my LSD and Blue Mystic. Both turned out killa. LSD had 2 tops and the Blue Mystic had 4. Turned out killa! Harvested this past weekend. It's all manicured and hanging in the cab. Thanks UB for starting this thread and showing a rookie a new trick!









































FYI these pics are of the tops with the majority of each plant hanging to dry. I did harvest a top off the Blue Mystic about 2 weeks ago also.


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## 0calli (Jun 13, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy!
> 
> Based on quite a few questions about topping I've received here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a-12.html I decided to reproduce a thread on my favorite topping method published at cann.com about 10 years ago. Even though I've got much better photos from many latter grows both indoor and outdoor, I'm gonna stick with the old photos from the original thread. Lighting is HPS from start to finish with the exception of using 4' long shop fluors from germ until about 2 weeks. Some pix were taken outdoors for better resolution thanks to an old camcorder I was using.
> *
> ...


hello uncleben i was thinking of topping my white widows i wana be sure they are ready cud you give me some info thnx


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## Danielsgb (Jun 13, 2011)

One thing I'd say is up-can it deeper so soil is just under the cotyledons. I'd get in deeper, but it looks close to ready to top.
UB was banned so he's on riddleme's site. 
Daniels


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## 0calli (Jun 13, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> One thing I'd say is up-can it deeper so soil is just under the cotyledons. I'd get in deeper, but it looks close to ready to top.
> UB was banned so he's on riddleme's site.
> Daniels


would you say another 4 days to 7 day?s it wud be ready to top and bury it deeper in soil right up to the cotyledons should i do this after i transfer to bigger pots im drying the soil now to do so i could trans today so there is less shock to them in 4 days to a week ?


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## Danielsgb (Jun 13, 2011)

0calli said:


> would you say another 4 days to 7 day?s it wud be ready to top and bury it deeper in soil right up to the cotyledons should i do this after i transfer to bigger pots im drying the soil now to do so i could trans today so there is less shock to them in 4 days to a week ?


 I'd up-can it as soon as you can. It shouldn't stress it at all or minimally. Soil shouldn't be dry just enough so you aren't having hand fulls of wet soil. Just moist soil is best. You want to water in heavily so there are no air pockets. Then in a couple days decide.
Check your rep.
Daniels


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## 0calli (Jun 13, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> I'd up-can it as soon as you can. It shouldn't stress it at all or minimally. Soil shouldn't be dry just enough so you aren't having hand fulls of wet soil. Just moist soil is best. You want to water in heavily so there are no air pockets. Then in a couple days decide.
> Check your rep.
> Daniels


thnx much appreciated


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## 0calli (Jun 13, 2011)

R u ready to get your smoke on tonight i said oooo ooo oo o


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## brandon727272 (Jun 13, 2011)

Is my plant ready to top? I have another about the same size right next to it, here are two pictures of the plant, one of the whole thing, and the second zoomed in of the top growth. Is this baby ready to top? If so, where should I top?


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## Danielsgb (Jun 13, 2011)

Looks ready to me. I top for 4 Main Colas so above the second node.
Daniels


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## brandon727272 (Jun 13, 2011)

Which one is the second node? Is this where I should cut? Could I make the top part I cut off a clone? The plant is Dutch Passion's Dolce Vita.


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## Danielsgb (Jun 13, 2011)

I don't mean to be a dick but you need to re-read at least the first 20 or thirty pages. The answer to that is there even in the first 2 posts from Uncle Ben. Yes you can clone it.
Daniels


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 13, 2011)

2 nodes above the one that has single bladed leaves.


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## brandon727272 (Jun 13, 2011)

Thanks guys, no offense taken. I read the first ~10 pages, then I figured I'd post as well to make sure.


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## 0calli (Jun 14, 2011)

brandon727272 said:


> Is my plant ready to top? I have another about the same size right next to it, here are two pictures of the plant, one of the whole thing, and the second zoomed in of the top growth. Is this baby ready to top? If so, where should I top?
> 
> View attachment 1646784View attachment 1646785


here is the method for you View attachment 1647837


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## 0calli (Jun 14, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> One thing I'd say is up-can it deeper so soil is just under the cotyledons. I'd get in deeper, but it looks close to ready to top.
> UB was banned so he's on riddleme's site.
> Daniels


hello danielsgb i got them burried up to the cotyledons and was going to top today but im debating topping at the second node if i do i cud clone it but what if i go to the next one up just starting ??? srry if this seems lame to you it just seems like your a person i can go to for some basic trustable info heres some pics i did up for you


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## Danielsgb (Jun 14, 2011)

0calli said:


> hello danielsgb i got them burried up to the cotyledons and was going to top today but im debating topping at the second node if i do i cud clone it but what if i go to the next one up just starting ??? srry if this seems lame to you it just seems like your a person i can go to for some basic trustable info heres some pics i did up for you


You got it right where to top for 4 main colas. It will make a good clone. 
But I meant up-can it way deeper. Like this SS. Here's a Tangerine Dream I topped. 
So if it was mine I would redo the up-can, sink it way lower so the cotyledons are barely above soil. Then wait a bit but still top for 4 colas. I'd make sure there is an inch above the soil to the top of the pot so water never washes the top of the main stem free of dirt. The stem will start making roots.once it is covered in soil and watered.
Daniels


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## Dubbz0r (Jun 14, 2011)

I read through the first 12 pages but didn't see what I was looking for so I'll ask the question.

My clones are only a few weeks old and there is no true sign of 1 main kola. There are nodes, but they are all over the place. Where would I attempt to top something like that?


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## Serial Violator (Jun 14, 2011)

Is there a reason you let the plant grow to 5 or 6 nodes before you top it??? if anyone knows


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## 0calli (Jun 14, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> You got it right where to top for 4 main colas. It will make a good clone.
> But I meant up-can it way deeper. Like this SS. Here's a Tangerine Dream I topped.
> So if it was mine I would redo the up-can, sink it way lower so the cotyledons are barely above soil. Then wait a bit but still top for 4 colas. I'd make sure there is an inch above the soil to the top of the pot so water never washes the top of the main stem free of dirt. The stem will start making roots.once it is covered in soil and watered.
> Daniels
> ...


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## 1oldgoat (Jun 14, 2011)

Serial Violator said:


> Is there a reason you let the plant grow to 5 or 6 nodes before you top it??? if anyone knows


Yes.........it's in this thread near the beginning.


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## Danielsgb (Jun 14, 2011)

Dubbz0r said:


> I read through the first 12 pages but didn't see what I was looking for so I'll ask the question.
> 
> My clones are only a few weeks old and there is no true sign of 1 main kola. There are nodes, but they are all over the place. Where would I attempt to top something like that?


The answer is in here from Uncle Ben. Even back a dozen pages has it.
1 Main Cola is from the very center growing tip. It's also called the apical meristem. Clones usually have alternating nodes so it is different. You need to look at where the bottom four nodes are and where a lateral branch will come from. aka tiny set of leaves. Think of where the four main Colas will come from.



Serial Violator said:


> Is there a reason you let the plant grow to 5 or 6 nodes before you top it??? if anyone knows


Again UB has answered this many times. It is so it has a strong root system.



0calli said:


> Danielsgb said:
> 
> 
> > You got it right where to top for 4 main colas. It will make a good clone.
> ...


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## 1oldgoat (Jun 14, 2011)

Dubbz0r said:


> I read through the first 12 pages but didn't see what I was looking for so I'll ask the question.
> 
> My clones are only a few weeks old and there is no true sign of 1 main kola. There are nodes, but they are all over the place. Where would I attempt to top something like that?


Look above two posts


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## 0calli (Jun 14, 2011)

before topping..................................................... after topping for all who dont want to read lol.


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## Dubbz0r (Jun 15, 2011)

My plants have alternating nodes which is why I was asking about clones. This thread has 386 pages... I read the first 12 and last 5 pages and still don't see alternating node topping mentioned or explained or if it's even possible to get 4 main kolas, hence why I asked.


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## Grow Info (Jun 15, 2011)

Can someone help me understand:

I mean I understand why topping would result in 2 colas, since there are those two pieces on both sides of the main stem that will grow upward, but where do the other two of the 4 colas come from without having to top again? (It's my first grow )


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## medicine21 (Jun 15, 2011)

A leaf comes from the stem - this is one node. A branch will come from this node right above/on top of the leaf. This branch will become a cola. To aim for 4 colas, just picture where the branches will come out of and leave 4 individual nodes for this to happen. On immature plants (as in the first month or more from seed) the leaves grow out of the stem on both sides at the same level, i.e. they are not alternating. Those count as a single node, since they are on the same level. On each side a branch will come resulting in two branches from this non-alternating node or eventually two colas.

When you have alternating nodes, just count 4 of them, again picture where the branches will come from those nodes (they may have already started) and cut everything above it. They may not be as even in height, but you can train/supercrop as needed later to even them out.


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## Dubbz0r (Jun 15, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> A leaf comes from the stem - this is one node. A branch will come from this node right above/on top of the leaf. This branch will become a cola. To aim for 4 colas, just picture where the branches will come out of and leave 4 individual nodes for this to happen. On immature plants (as in the first month or more from seed) the leaves grow out of the stem on both sides at the same level, i.e. they are not alternating. Those count as a single node, since they are on the same level. On each side a branch will come resulting in two branches from this non-alternating node or eventually two colas.
> 
> When you have alternating nodes, just count 4 of them, again picture where the branches will come from those nodes (they may have already started) and cut everything above it. They may not be as even in height, but you can train/supercrop as needed later to even them out.


Much thanks for the reply +rep. As tempting as it sounds I think I'll wait until I get this first grow under my belt before I go chopping my plants in half. It looks and sounds like a no-brainer because really, who wouldn't want 4 giant kolas instead of one? but with my lack of knowledge I don't want to risk jacking them up just yet. I will definitely keep my eye on this thread though.


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## The45King (Jun 15, 2011)

Grow Info said:


> Can someone help me understand:
> 
> I mean I understand why topping would result in 2 colas, since there are those two pieces on both sides of the main stem that will grow upward, but where do the other two of the 4 colas come from without having to top again? (It's my first grow )


 

Simplified


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## Dubbz0r (Jun 15, 2011)

The45King said:


> View attachment 1649612
> Simplified


Can you make one of those for alternating nodes please? LOL totally kidding...


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## Fadedflower (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm enlightened!


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## Fadedflower (Jun 15, 2011)

Hey, what happened to that other post! It had a link to another Uncle Ben thread, but I never got a chance to follow it!


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## Grow Info (Jun 15, 2011)

The45King said:


> View attachment 1649612
> Simplified


Thanks, that helps with understanding where to cut. But what would be the result of cutting above that, like at the 5th node. It would only produce 2 tops at that location right? Why would it not produce, for example, 10 tops (2 at each remaining node), such as when you cut at the 2nd node it produces 4 tops (2 at the 2nd, 2 at the 1st)?


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 15, 2011)

Grow Info said:


> Thanks, that helps with understanding where to cut. But what would be the result of cutting above that, like at the 5th node. It would only produce 2 tops at that location right? Why would it not produce, for example, 10 tops (2 at each remaining node), such as when you cut at the 2nd node it produces 4 tops (2 at the 2nd, 2 at the 1st)?


If you apply LST training as well to let the lower branches to catch up you can have 10+ tops ie. look at my Photo albulb of the White Sharks https://www.rollitup.org/members/pakalolohui-321765/albums/bonzai-sized-white-shark-24013/

I cut once beteween the 7th & 8th node and removed the bottom 3, just my preference, and tied the branches down. Today is day 75 and their 18th day of flowering.


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## Danielsgb (Jun 15, 2011)

Grow Info said:


> Thanks, that helps with understanding where to cut. But what would be the result of cutting above that, like at the 5th node. It would only produce 2 tops at that location right? Why would it not produce, for example, 10 tops (2 at each remaining node), such as when you cut at the 2nd node it produces 4 tops (2 at the 2nd, 2 at the 1st)?


It becomes a bush with smaller bud sites. Not the same as UB's method. Not the same where you'd get 10 tops.


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## nazZty (Jun 15, 2011)

I did read through this but 2 looks very similar to how you cut 4. Can someone please explain in dummy terms.


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 15, 2011)

nazZty said:


> I did read through this but 2 looks very similar to how you cut 4. Can someone please explain in dummy terms.


In the picture below, where it shows cut here for 2 main cola's, notice how there are going to only be 2 side branches, therefore 2 tops.

Now where it says cut here for 4 main cola's, notice how there will be 2 branches just at the cut and 2 more branches from the node below. If you cut higher like it says you will get more tops, but with smaller buds.

But you can top higher, and cut your lower branches as I have done and create the same effect. Tying down your branches so the tops are lower than the branch itself is called LST. This is not necessary at all but can be used to help to even things out and for other various reasons.


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## nazZty (Jun 16, 2011)

Awsome! I see, iv only done this once befor and i all i did was keep pinchin off the tops. This is much more efficiency.


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## jjfoo (Jun 16, 2011)

Dubbz0r said:


> My plants have alternating nodes which is why I was asking about clones. This thread has 386 pages... I read the first 12 and last 5 pages and still don't see alternating node topping mentioned or explained or if it's even possible to get 4 main kolas, hence why I asked.



yes, you can

Clones can be cut earlier than seedlings, so as soon as you see 4 nodes (doesn't matter if they are alt or not), then you have your nodes cultivate... when the 5 one comes in cut it off

if the bottom shoot doesn't take off then temporarily bend the other branches down like LST style

you can simply watch the plant grow and if one node dominates you can lower it for a few days

you don't need to use the bottom 4, I mean if you're plant has manynodes already you can select four and top above that and remove the bottom nodes... then let it go and keep an eye on any guys who try to dominate, you can simply lower them with a string or wire for a few days and the others will even out and catch up


I'd suggest googling for bonsai articles


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## bongmarley2009 (Jun 17, 2011)

@The45King: I told my buddy to follow your method of topping above the 3rd node and then removing the bottom 2 budsites to use as cuttings to get the 4 main colas that are more equal in height and weight. Sounds better than topping above the 2nd node to me.


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## maximus444 (Jun 17, 2011)

The45King said:


> Thanks to ub its a perma technique for me works
> everytime and gettin buds this size from a 250w its
> a no brainer hope to see ub around again sometime
> View attachment 1627917


That plant looks gorgeous mate is that Serious Seeds BubbleGum?

How much do you yield on average off this strain? Does it take long to finish?

I'm looking for a fruity indica and so far this seems right up my ally.

Cheers


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## 0014 (Jun 17, 2011)

This was great


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## MidnightJoker (Jun 18, 2011)

I have a big problem and I hope someone can clear this up before I top. My plants just entered 3 weeks of veg yesterday and they are already 14" tall. There is no stretching, it's just that big. I only have 5 feet of vertical grow space, so I am wondering if I top above the third node, will this solve my problem with the height???


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## imanoob (Jun 18, 2011)

What kind of lights are you using, how far away are they? 
How many nodes you got on your plant?

The plant will at least double in height, depending on the strain of course...im sure the low riders etc might be different. I dont bother with those type of plants. I will usually wait till 6/7 nodes and top, clean up the bottom and leave them alone for a week before I flip them to flower. This week will allow them to recover.


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## MidnightJoker (Jun 18, 2011)

Hi, and thanks so much for your reply.

I am currently using a 400w MH, but will switch that to HPS for flowering. The light is 18" away from the canopy and I currently have 7 nodes on each of my 3 plants. I am growing 2x White Widow and 1x Strawberry Cough. 

So do you think I should top it at the third node and let it recover for a week or two before I flip? Will this help my height problems since I only have 5' of vertical space? Really could use some help because this is my first grow and I am very limited in vertical space. Thanks in advance.


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## imanoob (Jun 18, 2011)

If im honest, I would also be worried about height. Without seeing them, I would top them now, let them recover then flip. Its going to be tight man, I could keep your light closer, but again I dont know if you have fans blowing the heat away etc. With it being 400w, you could do with it being a little closer (unless you get obvious yellowing/drying). You want to try reduce any potential streching


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## MidnightJoker (Jun 18, 2011)

So do you recommend doing the topping at the third node? 

How long does it take for the plant to recover and will the plant grow just as big as it is now or bigger when I flower after topping? 

Thanks again for your help.


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## Bwpz (Jun 19, 2011)

So basically "*Let plant grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node" is all you have to do to get it with 4 nodes?
*


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## bongmarley2009 (Jun 19, 2011)

Bwpz said:


> So basically "*Let plant grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node" is all you have to do to get it with 4 nodes?
> *


That is correct. The reason why you let it grow to 5-6 nodes is so that your plant has an established root system as mentioned previously.


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## mrorganics (Jun 19, 2011)

What about topping a clone for 4 mains? Anyone done it? I have 6 I topped like this but they are seedlings and I really like the results. My question is that with alternating nodes on a clone will you still get 4 mains if you cut above tthe 4th branch.


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## Bwpz (Jun 19, 2011)

bongmarley2009 said:


> That is correct. The reason why you let it grow to 5-6 nodes is so that your plant has an established root system as mentioned previously.




And you just do that once per plant in it's lifetime?


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## Homebud (Jun 19, 2011)

Well, my first topping, I just topped one plant between the 2nd and 3rd true nodes, will see what happens.  it is a weird feeling to cut that top off! lol

I found this on another site and found parts interesting. Anyone agree or disagree strongly with anything listed???

** Pruning a growing marijuana plant is an easy way of controlling uneven growth without seriously harming the plant.

** Don't prune the growing tip of a young seedling until after the first five-bladed leaves have formed, and the vegetative stage has begun.

** Many growers prune the growing tips after four to five weeks growth to develop lower branches which will quickly fill all the horizontal space.

** The greatest potency of the growing plant is found in the growing tips, and by three months, they should make a high quality smoke.

** You can basically prune growing tips at any stage of the plant's development, but just don't overdo it.

** Severe pruning can harm the growth of the plant.

** It is always better to plan a pruning strategy for your developing plants, rather than haphazardly clipping off growing tips on an irregular basis.

** Each time a growing tip is removed, the plant takes a few days to recover before new growth resumes on that branch.

** The amount of new growth formed with continued pruning is limited by the genetic structure of the seed, and the conditions of the environment.

** It is better to prune your plants at an early stage of their development, than towards the end of the vegetative stage or during flowering.

** It is always better to prune growing tips in the morning than in the evening, as it gives the plant a full day to recover and heal the wounds.

** It is not recommended that you prune every new node in a developing plant. Rather prune every second or third node to allow the plant time to recover.

** Wait for the new node to start growing before clipping the young branch a few millimeters above the previous node's newly formed leaves.

** It is always better to use a small scissors to prune your plants, than to simply pluck off the growing tips by hand.

** Do not prune any growing tips if you notice that your plant's health is declining and it has started losing leaves. Although you should always smoke the pruned growing tips, plants should be pruned to develop their growth rather than for smoking purposes.

** While it may be tempting to prune female buds during early flowering, your harvest will be severely reduced by doing so.

** Cannabis Indica is a genetically smaller and more bushy plant than Cannabis Sativa and usually requires less pruning.

** Never prune more than the single growing tip, or upper-most node, from any branch on the growing plant.

** The upper-most growing tip of an unpruned marijuana plant will always be more potent that the top buds of a pruned plant grown in similar conditions.

** Pruning the tallest branches ensures that the lower branches grow upwards, forming a larger surface area for the light to cover.

** The clear fluid that often flows from the end of a newly pruned branch, contains substances which seal the wound and aid the healing process.

** Although it is recommended that you remove all dying leaves from the plant, you should resist the temptation to prune too many healthy leaves.

** To grow seedless marijuana, you should remove all the male plants as soon as they are discovered, by pruning the main stem right above the ground.

** Although it may be better developed, a pruned marijuana plant does not always produce more buds than an unpruned plant.

** Another good reason for pruning is to take cuttings from a strong growing, favourite plant for further hydroponic development.

** Marijuana growers often prune their plants in an attempt to limit their height and prevent unwanted detection.

** An alternative to pruning for developing growth, is to bend the tops of the branches over and tie the growing tips down with string or wire.

** By pruning all the buds at harvest time, rather than cutting the stem off above the ground, you could easily harvest your plant a second time.

** By severely pruning your marijuana plants you are lowering their resistance to harmful natural enemies such as insects, fungus and frost.

** You can make a great cup of tea, by chopping up some pruned growing tips and soaking them in boiled water for a few minutes.

** Cannabis is a very hardy and adaptable plant, and will endure serious harm to it's leaves, branches and stem before it dies.


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## The45King (Jun 20, 2011)

bongmarley2009 said:


> @The45King: I told my buddy to follow your method of topping above the 3rd node and then removing the bottom 2 budsites to use as cuttings to get the 4 main colas that are more equal in height and weight. Sounds better than topping above the 2nd node to me.


its better and its still ub's technique to get them 4 mains 
Peace


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## The45King (Jun 20, 2011)

maximus444 said:


> That plant looks gorgeous mate is that Serious Seeds BubbleGum?
> 
> How much do you yield on average off this strain? Does it take long to finish?
> 
> ...


This was bubblegummer from female seeds i got over 3 1/2 zips 
thanks to ub's technique and its a real nice hitter too i run her for 8 weeks
i didnt get the main pheno this run but once i toked this after 3 weeks i popped another 
bean,very nice musky taste with a lil fruit hope for main pheno this run but would be happy
with this 1 again very nice


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## Grow Info (Jun 20, 2011)

My plant had 5 nodes when i topped it, and I topped it above the 4th node. How many colas will this produce in the future? Two?


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## Danielsgb (Jun 20, 2011)

It will be a bush shape. So maybe 8 bud sites. The first 10 or 20 pages explains how & why.


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## Grow Info (Jun 21, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> It will be a bush shape. So maybe 8 bud sites. The first 10 or 20 pages explains how & why.


Wait, it will NOT develop ANY colas in this case of topping above the 4th? Just a bush with only 8 bud sites? And it will lower my yeild? Should I re-top the plant above the 2nd node? I topped above the 4th due to the weird top formation at the first node, on one side a top is about 6 inches long, and the other side it is about 3mm long.


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## Danielsgb (Jun 21, 2011)

I'd just go with it and you will see. By bud sites I mean colas, and yield is something I can't guess. I think it would be somewhat close either way, but you lose a week or two to veg.


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## Enigma684 (Jun 22, 2011)

i dont get it which is the 2nd true node can someone please pm me with a picture of a full plant and instruct me where to cut to get 4 main colas


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## chb444220 (Jun 22, 2011)

FIM'ing also works great. (fo rme anyways) i always do that rather than top. i usually end up with more than 2 tops wen i FIM. my warlock has 6 tops... and jkust topped both of my gorilla grapes which are in veg,. and im seein 4 tops on each forming. heres a couple pics of the warlock.


*Warlock at 40 Days Flowering


*​


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## lbezphil2005 (Jun 22, 2011)

Enigma684 said:


> i dont get it which is the 2nd true node can someone please pm me with a picture of a full plant and instruct me where to cut to get 4 main colas


Did you not read the first few pages, even the first few posts of this thread? There is a complete diagram with pics, drawings, everything, honestly, I dont' get you guys sometimes, a little reading goes a long way, fellas! The cotehydrons are the first leaves to appear when the seed sprouts. they are not considered "true leaves", okay? then you have the next set that comes out, a single blade "usually", that is your first set of tru leaves, okay? Then the next set to come out would be your second, etc.


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## Danielsgb (Jun 22, 2011)

Enigma684 said:


> i dont get it which is the 2nd true node can someone please pm me with a picture of a full plant and instruct me where to cut to get 4 main colas


Read the fucking thread. Quit being lazy. That has been answered hundreds of times.


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## Homebud (Jun 22, 2011)

Warlock looks awesome chb, Wanna see that at harvest time!


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## chb444220 (Jun 22, 2011)

Homebud said:


> Warlock looks awesome chb, Wanna see that at harvest time!


aiight. ill post sum pics on here wen its done. u can always click my sig. adn check out pics from there too. i update every week. i got warlock/sensi star/ak-48/bastard bubba kush 1 and 2 and a gorrilla grape (double purple doja x purple erkle) flowering too. adn just recently harvested a floja (flo x double purple doja) and bubblicious


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## xXOnyxXx (Jun 22, 2011)

here are my girlz, they are 4 weeks in 12/12 what ya guys think? they did have a couple 90 degree days at week 3, but are doing good now.


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## Homebud (Jun 22, 2011)

Look at all that sexy blonde hair! Nice


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## mrorganics (Jun 23, 2011)

If you take a clone can you top it before its rooted?and with the alternating nodes if I top above the 4 node will it even out, I topped and now I love this method and will never vhange. A friend said you cant top clones that's y I'm askin he said you can only fim em. Its sound bogus to me.


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## canefan (Jun 23, 2011)

mrorganics said:


> If you take a clone can you top it before its rooted?and with the alternating nodes if I top above the 4 node will it even out, I topped and now I love this method and will never vhange. A friend said you cant top clones that's y I'm askin he said you can only fim em. Its sound bogus to me.


 You are right, your friend doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. You can top clones, it is best to wait until well rooted to top, personally I wait at least 2 weeks to ensure a good root system. My question to you would be why top before it is rooted? Sound to me like if you want a clone topped you would alter the shape to what you want before you clone, when you take a cutting, cut it to the shape you want then go about your rooting process. You don't want to shock her, put her into clone and then top her again before she roots.
To even out the branches of alternating nodes: Allow the plant to grow a few inches then take the longest branches and gently crush the stem just below the tops. You squeeze gently until you hear the stem crush, the top will fall over but rebound by the next day. The result are the lower branches will start growing more to catch up to the tallest and increase the overall bushiness of the plant.
Good Luck and Happy Growing


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## medicine21 (Jun 23, 2011)

I just did exactly that. Topped the branches on the mother and THEN cut them for the 4 colas to make clones. These pre-topped clones rooted at the same speed as non-topped ones. I figure this saves me the shock of topping during veg, since the clones aren't doing anything but trying to make roots in the first week or two anyway.


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## thinkingreen (Jun 23, 2011)

I'm ready to top, but there are some issues from a problem early on. You can see the nodes above are much farther ahead than the ones I need to keep. Upper growth is at least 2x bigger, and the bottom nodes have no large leaves, just some small new growth. It appears like they haven't grown at all since the deficiency. 

What would some experts suggest? I was thinking of trimming the bottom nodes, or not, and cutting above the current 4th node(2nd healthy node). I'm aiming to get four colas. Thanks


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 23, 2011)

thinkingreen said:


> I'm ready to top, but there are some issues from a problem early on. You can see the nodes above are much farther ahead than the ones I need to keep. Upper growth is at least 2x bigger, and the bottom nodes have no large leaves, just some small new growth. It appears like they haven't grown at all since the deficiency.
> View attachment 1661916
> What would some experts suggest? I was thinking of trimming the bottom nodes, or not, and cutting above the current 4th node(2nd healthy node). I'm aiming to get four colas. Thanks


That is what I would do. Make your topping first, wait several days to a week until you have good growth again up top, and then cut off what you don't want below.

It won't hurt to cut what you don't want later on, but too soon and you may stunt your plants growth and have to veg. longer to get where you are aiming for.


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## fdd2blk (Jun 23, 2011)

Danielsgb said:


> Read the fucking thread. Quit being lazy. That has been answered hundreds of times.


can i lock this thread now?


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## fdd2blk (Jun 23, 2011)

thinkingreen said:


> I'm ready to top, but there are some issues from a problem early on. You can see the nodes above are much farther ahead than the ones I need to keep. Upper growth is at least 2x bigger, and the bottom nodes have no large leaves, just some small new growth. It appears like they haven't grown at all since the deficiency.
> View attachment 1661916
> What would some experts suggest? I was thinking of trimming the bottom nodes, or not, and cutting above the current 4th node(2nd healthy node). I'm aiming to get four colas. Thanks



i'd let that grow another week or so. then i'd remove the bottom 3 or 4 nodes and top it leaving however many nodes you want left. 

i would never use my first 4 branches. those are the weakest, spindliest branches the plant ever produces. 

remove the first 4 sets, let 2 to 4 more sets grow above that, then top it.


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## fdd2blk (Jun 23, 2011)

PakaloloHui said:


> That is what I would do. Make your topping first, wait several days to a week until you have good growth again up top, and then cut off what you don't want below.
> 
> It won't hurt to cut what you don't want later on, but too soon and you may stunt your plants growth and have to veg. longer to get where you are aiming for.


id' cut off the bottom first. then wait to cut the top. once you top it you can't go back.


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## dankshizzle (Jun 23, 2011)

This is my 419th post. Figure I'd use it here. This thread changed my life about 419 posts ago...


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## kmksrh21 (Jun 23, 2011)

Fellow growers... Ive read this thread numerous times, figured I'd post here rather than start a new thread. I have wanted to try this technique since I learned about it. I feel I'm closing in, but would like advice from those who have done it before I go through with it. I have a ak47 and bubba kush that have been veggin on 20/4 light schedule for 28 days now. They're pretty short and stocky, but are growing their 6th set of leaves. Are they ready for decapitation? Here's some details and pics... Thanks in advance 

Lighting: 2 t8 40w daylight 6500k 48in flouros w/ 2 t12 40w sunshine 5000k 48 in tubes.

Soil: FF OPM mixed with FF OF and Perlite 

Nutes: As of week 3, Fox farms grow big, 1/4 strength


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## 420blazeit (Jun 24, 2011)

I am possibly the biggest retard here for asking this question... but is where the first set of single serrated leaves attached count as the first trud node? Or is the next set of leaves?


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## fdd2blk (Jun 24, 2011)

420blazeit said:


> I am possibly the biggest retard here for asking this question... but is where the first set of single serrated leaves attached count as the first trud node? Or is the next set of leaves?


whoever started all this sure started A LOT of confusion.


this is why i simply remove the first 3 or 5 branches from the bottom, they are thin and spindly anyways, then i top it.

the biggest problem i see with all this is everybody is in a huge hurry. give your plants another week or so to grow a little and it will be a lot easier.


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## canefan (Jun 24, 2011)

fdd2blk, glad to see you posting here again. Hope all is going well for you and your grow this year, hope you also get to spread more of your knowledge this year.
Cane


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## The45King (Jun 24, 2011)

Here.s what i do from seed works for me
Top at 3rd node around day 18 veg
Day 24 remove bottom 2 branches (clone or mates)
Day 31 (minimum) flower 
If ya top at the second true node from seed you will
end up with 2 spindel branches that dont get involved
like fdd2blk says but top at the 3rd and remove the bottom
2 branches will leave you with 4 strong fat branches
Peace


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## thinkingreen (Jun 24, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> i'd let that grow another week or so. then i'd remove the bottom 3 or 4 nodes and top it leaving however many nodes you want left.
> 
> i would never use my first 4 branches. those are the weakest, spindliest branches the plant ever produces.
> 
> remove the first 4 sets, let 2 to 4 more sets grow above that, then top it.


Thanks, the responses really helped calm some of my concerns. I think ill trim the lower stuff in a couple days then top in a week or so. She's pretty flat, dense, and wide at the top, the underside is mostly shaded. I doubt she'll miss those branches at this point anyhow. Thanks again.


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 14, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> whoever started all this sure started A LOT of confusion.
> 
> 
> this is why i simply remove the first 3 or 5 branches from the bottom, they are thin and spindly anyways, then i top it.
> ...


It's quite obvious....you started the confusion. Let's clear something up here......

For the record, the posts fdd made (as a former mod) before he locked this thread a couple of weeks ago are off topic and have NO relationship to my original intent and simple technique. This is not about removing lower branches. 

This is the new and improved version with more photos and a FAQ which answers all questions found in the hundreds of posts in the RIU thread:
http://riddlem3.com/index.php/topic,1106.0.htmlhttp://riddlem3.com/index.php/topic,1106.0.html

Uncle Ben


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## canefan (Aug 14, 2011)

Welcome back Uncle Ben sure is nice to see you again. Sure missed reading your posts the past few weeks, anyway Welcome Back.


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## ChroniCDooM (Aug 17, 2011)

Here's one of my girls topped at the secon node and on day 18 of flower. She's very healthy and green with two main colas and two smaller side colas. The strain is The Ultimate from Dutch Passion Seed Co. I got two of em going. First time growing this strain. Thanks UB for the topping technique!


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 19, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


>


Nice job. What in the hell is that thing potted into LOL. Looks like a fuel tank from alien spaceship. How do the roots react?

Thanks canefan


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## ChroniCDooM (Aug 19, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice job. What in the hell is that thing potted into LOL. Looks like a fuel tank from alien spaceship. How do the roots react?
> 
> Thanks canefan


 Thanks UB! I'm using airpots for the first time. It's got holes all around the outside of the pot. The roots are supposed to prune themselves once they reach the air.


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## MediMary (Aug 19, 2011)

wow.. uncle ben is back fdd, and looks like fdd is no longer a mod? 
am I dreaming or something


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 19, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> Thanks UB! I'm using airpots for the first time. It's got holes all around the outside of the pot. The roots are supposed to prune themselves once they reach the air.


Cool. They will air prune IF the RH is not real high. Keep us posted.


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## lbezphil2005 (Aug 20, 2011)

Thats interesting, UB. Are you saying the airpots won't work as well in a humid environment? What about smartpots, same theory? I live in a high humidity area which is why I'm asking, definitely got respect for your knowledge and opinions. And love the new stuff, by the way!


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## Homebud (Aug 20, 2011)

Looks great UB, once again. Thank you for sharing your stuff with us! Those stems look as big as my finger


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 21, 2011)

lbezphil2005 said:


> Thats interesting, UB. Are you saying the airpots won't work as well in a humid environment? What about smartpots, same theory? I live in a high humidity area which is why I'm asking, definitely got respect for your knowledge and opinions. And love the new stuff, by the way!


It's air that terminates the root tips. Think aeroponics in which a saturated air mass has no termination affect. Same with a greenhouse in which roots will grow out the drainholes and keep on growing if the air is saturated.


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## cannawizard (Aug 21, 2011)

*sub'd.. sweet thread full of wholesome cannabis info


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## lbezphil2005 (Aug 22, 2011)

Thats what I needed to know, UB! You are terrific, bro! I was just getting ready to purchase some more and was going to try the airpots but where I live it gets to 100 rh outside some days, early fall is no joke for mold here. Thanks for all your help!


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 22, 2011)

Live and learn fellers.........


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## 209whitebread (Aug 22, 2011)

how do you know where the first true node is??


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## lbezphil2005 (Aug 23, 2011)

209whitebread said:


> how do you know where the first true node is??


Uh, where the first true leaves come out? Haven't you been reading, bro? Cotehydrons come out first, then the first set of "true" leaves - the single leaf that comes out first on top of the cotehydrons. The second set of "true" leafs are above the first set of leafs, they usually have 3 leafs and are 90 degrees opposite of the first set.


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 23, 2011)

lbezphil2005 said:


> Thats what I needed to know, UB! You are terrific, bro! I was just getting ready to purchase some more and was going to try the airpots but where I live it gets to 100 rh outside some days, early fall is no joke for mold here. Thanks for all your help!


My best guess is an ambient RH of 85% and below would induce root tip burn.


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## wbd (Aug 23, 2011)

UB, thanks for the thread here. I went with topping above the 2nd node this time around to try thing out for myself. What I found was that the bottom set of "tops" on 2/4 plants still haven't caught up to the upper set. They are looking more like 2 tops than 4 as I approach 28 days veg tomorrow. The other 2 plants have 4 dominant tops as expected and look great -- their lower set of grow tips caught up with the upper set in fairly short order.

I topped all 4 girls within 3 days of each other, all around the day 15 mark, but the 2 that reacted funny had smaller lower sets of growth tips when the cut was made. They are both smaller plants -- then and even today still, 1 of them I'm calling a runt. They were showing 5-6 nodes each but again the 2 oddballs weren't quite as far along. Even so, I felt like I followed your instructions.

Any thoughts on this phenomenon? Does it maybe take them a while to even out sometimes, or do you think it's possible I just snipped to early?


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## quebec budzz (Aug 23, 2011)

thanks Uncle Ben look what you made me done View attachment 1749754


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 24, 2011)

wbd said:


> UB, thanks for the thread here. I went with topping above the 2nd node this time around to try thing out for myself. What I found was that the bottom set of "tops" on 2/4 plants still haven't caught up to the upper set. They are looking more like 2 tops than 4 as I approach 28 days veg tomorrow. The other 2 plants have 4 dominant tops as expected and look great -- their lower set of grow tips caught up with the upper set in fairly short order.
> 
> I topped all 4 girls within 3 days of each other, all around the day 15 mark, but the 2 that reacted funny had smaller lower sets of growth tips when the cut was made. They are both smaller plants -- then and even today still, 1 of them I'm calling a runt. They were showing 5-6 nodes each but again the 2 oddballs weren't quite as far along. Even so, I felt like I followed your instructions.
> 
> Any thoughts on this phenomenon? Does it maybe take them a while to even out sometimes, or do you think it's possible I just snipped to early?


Plants react differently regarding apical dominance. Just go with the flow. Many times the top 2 colas will be dominant.

Lookin' good quebec.

Good luck,
UB


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## wbd (Aug 24, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Plants react differently regarding apical dominance. Just go with the flow. Many times the top 2 colas will be dominant.


Thanks for the response.  So this is a normal result, I shouldn't be thinking about what to do differently next time -- is that what you're telling me?


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## Bajaman (Aug 24, 2011)

UB- Sorry for sounding so elemtry as I am completely new to this but from what I'm gathering is you basically top right above the first four branches. If that is the case could you cut the first two branches off because they don't look as good as the next four branches and top there. By branch I mean the petiole Thanks bm


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## Clasbot (Aug 24, 2011)

View attachment 1751611 

uncle bob im a noob at this can you circle were to cut ive read and read this forum but i really dont want to mess this up can you please help?


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 24, 2011)

We're not building a piano fellers.


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## Clasbot (Aug 25, 2011)

Took it into my own hands I pinched off the part were the stem splits in two in-between the 2 can't rem the body part of the plant but it starts with a C am I on track UB?


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## quebec budzz (Aug 25, 2011)

is it so tough to count 1.......... 2 nodes then cut!!look the resultsstop pinching....start Topping uncle ben style+ rep to the Uncle


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## mr.bloom (Aug 29, 2011)

the clones i have you get 3


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 29, 2011)

quebec budzz said:


> [/ATTACH]View attachment 1753495stop pinching....start Topping uncle ben style+ rep to the Uncle


That worked out perfect for you.

I see you buried the "crotch". Just a thought......you will get root output along the buried "trunk" but you might want to get the crotch above ground by pulling some soil out of the pot.. If you have even the smallest crack in the crotch and water collects and stays there, you're inviting rot. The photo below shows a plant that split wide open at the crotch thanks to a storm, laid wide open. With the help of duct tape and a good spray of tar like stuff into the hole, it survived and produced really well.


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## genuity (Aug 29, 2011)

what did you spray in the hole?


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 29, 2011)

genuity said:


> what did you spray in the hole?


Pruning paint.


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## genuity (Aug 29, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Pruning paint.


ok,cause last time that i had a stem split like that,i sprayd with aloe vera spray gel.
that split came back together extra thick.

dose pruning paint have aloe vera in it?


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## tcaliwowi (Aug 29, 2011)

Uncle Ben,
I have always loved your 10 minute Boil-In-Bag Rice. Now I will forever love your gnarly topping methods. You have successfully morphed from WHEAT to WEED!


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 29, 2011)

genuity said:


> ok,cause last time that i had a stem split like that,i sprayd with aloe vera spray gel.
> that split came back together extra thick.
> 
> dose pruning paint have aloe vera in it?


Yes, plus Eye of Newt....totally "natural and organic".

Wheat? No Ho Grain fer me.......

View attachment 1761135


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## quebec budzz (Aug 30, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> That worked out perfect for you.
> 
> I see you buried the "crotch". Just a thought......you will get root output along the buried "trunk" but you might want to get the crotch above ground by pulling some soil out of the pot.. If you have even the smallest crack in the crotch and water collects and stays there, you're inviting rot. The photo below shows a plant that split wide open at the crotch thanks to a storm, laid wide open. With the help of duct tape and a good spray of tar like stuff into the hole, it survived and produced really well.
> 
> View attachment 1759851


 that wont happen since I get them in Nightime! or before a storm!!!


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## ShowMeTheWay (Aug 30, 2011)

lilkc said:


> Ok people straighten this False Node thing out, ur confusin alot of noobs.
> Is the False Node Cotyledons the Very First Green Leaves that come out the seed?????
> Or the Next Single Blade 1's????


you're only getting confused because you're just skimming through the info.

read it properly. im learning all this for the first time, and its annoying that on nearly every single page of the thread people ask the same dumb questions.
if you cant understand something made so simple by pictures and diagrams or cant be bothered to read the threads properly and research it yourself then don't bother growing in the first place cause you obviously don't have the right mindstate to do it.


next you'll want them to come and take your grow over for you.....


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## lbezphil2005 (Aug 31, 2011)

quebec budzz said:


> that wont happen since I get them in Nightime! or before a storm!!!


What about when you water, bro? Don't you think a little moisture might get in there?


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 31, 2011)

ShowMeTheWay said:


> you're only getting confused because you're just skimming through the info.
> 
> read it properly. im learning all this for the first time, and its annoying that on nearly every single page of the thread people ask the same dumb questions.
> if you cant understand something made so simple by pictures and diagrams or cant be bothered to read the threads properly and research it yourself then don't bother growing in the first place cause you obviously don't have the right mindstate to do it.
> ...


SOS, just a different day. Thanks. 

One reason why I posted a revised ditty with a FAQ at another site was to preclude the redundant questions, but, some folks aint gonna get it no matter how much you spoon feed them. Like you said, if he doesn't understand plant anatomy, plant nutrition, etc. then he shouldn't be growing. 

The following edited thread explains it better - http://riddlem3.com/index.php/topic,1106.0.html

Editing of threads by the thread starter is not allowed here. Beats the hell out of me why....

UB


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## genuity (Aug 31, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yes, plus Eye of Newt....totally "natural and organic".
> 
> Wheat? No Ho Grain fer me.......
> 
> View attachment 1761135


"Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg, and howlet's wing,--
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble."


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 31, 2011)

Good one!....


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## genuity (Aug 31, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Good one!....


shakespear....


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## ShowMeTheWay (Aug 31, 2011)

i was just wondering, my plants are mature now so there's no chance of topping them i understand that, what i want to know is there anything else, other than the talked about root growth hormone that you can use for cuttings? 

i researched a little bit and have only found one thing talking about how some plants produce thier own rooting hormone, one of them being a willow tree. 
apparently you can take a live branch from a willow tree, place it in some water that you will be using for the cutting and it 'should' help the cutting take root.

then can put it into another batch of water that you will be using to water the cutting...

what's your take on it? obviously im guessing the rooting hormone you buy will do a better job as its concentrated, but do you know any of the other plants that produce thier own rooting hormone?


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## lbezphil2005 (Sep 1, 2011)

ShowMeTheWay said:


> i was just wondering, my plants are mature now so there's no chance of topping them i understand that, what i want to know is there anything else, other than the talked about root growth hormone that you can use for cuttings?
> 
> i researched a little bit and have only found one thing talking about how some plants produce thier own rooting hormone, one of them being a willow tree.
> apparently you can take a live branch from a willow tree, place it in some water that you will be using for the cutting and it 'should' help the cutting take root.
> ...


The hormone is in the bark of the willow tree. Thats the only one I know of.


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## quebec budzz (Sep 1, 2011)

lbezphil2005 said:


> What about when you water, bro? Don't you think a little moisture might get in there?


I think I will be all GOOD


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## Grow Info (Sep 6, 2011)

Just an update: I topped above the 4th node before reading this carefully on ONE of my plants, many months ago. That plant IS, indeed, VERY VERY bushy as people on here told me it will be. However, I do, actually, have 8 smaller Colas on my baby with what looks like will be a great yield for my first grow. Yay  My second plant I did not top at all because flowering came too soon out of nowhere and it is friggin' tall as hell!! Nearly 6 feet! lol.


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## PeacefulKid1992 (Sep 13, 2011)

would toping stress the plant in the vegg stage?


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## Gaspar (Sep 13, 2011)

Getting ready to start using this method once i get my setup ready. Thnx UB!!!


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## ismokealotofpot (Sep 13, 2011)

i dont know how this thread got sticky its not an advanced technique


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## POTF (Sep 14, 2011)

Can you show a picture of opposing bud sites versus alternating bud sites?
Thx
Peace


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## jesicalorren (Sep 19, 2011)

ya i got alternating but i think its because i got clones form clones from clones and so on... i started a seed and got opposing sites that makes the tecnique possible . when u do it from altenaing your babys look all weird but they come out allll rigghhhhhttttt


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## Harrekin (Sep 20, 2011)

Uncle Ben...when I top at the second node alot of the time I get branches growing from where the cots join the main stem, I assume this is from the flow of hormones being interrupted and accumilating in the remaining tissues...but how normal is it? I top when the plant is literally just large enough to top and usually cut off the new cot-branches btw.

Thanks man.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 20, 2011)

Harrekin said:


> Uncle Ben...when I top at the second node alot of the time I get branches growing from where the cots join the main stem, I assume this is from the flow of hormones being interrupted and accumilating in the remaining tissues...but how normal is it? I top when the plant is literally just large enough to top and usually cut off the new cot-branches btw.
> 
> Thanks man.


I have done this a dozen times and never gotten output in the axis where the cotyledons attach to the "trunk" and that includes pinching out above the first node. Guess your mileage may vary.....


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## fatboyOGOF (Sep 20, 2011)

i read this thread a couple of times and i keep forgetting to try this method. i put a sticky note on my veg door to remind me to do a few of them this time! 

i like the look of the 4 cola plant. i used to get some pretty cool looking plants by twisting the hurd. remember that fad ben? lol


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## Harrekin (Sep 20, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> I have done this a dozen times and never gotten output in the axis where the cotyledons attach to the "trunk" and that includes pinching out above the first node. Guess your mileage may vary.....


 Excuse my ignorance, but what does the mileage comment mean?


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 20, 2011)

fatboyOGOF said:


> i used to get some pretty cool looking plants by twisting the hurd. remember that fad ben? lol


Yep, I remember that one hehe.



Harrekin said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but what does the mileage comment mean?


"Your mileage may vary" depends on your ride. It's an old English slang term meaning that things may vary.


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## The45King (Sep 22, 2011)

Gd to see ya back ub gettin gr8 yields everytime now thanks to your 2 threads
Peace bro


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 22, 2011)

Glad that things are working out for you!


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## smokey mcsmokester (Sep 24, 2011)

Hi UB, Ive been here since 08, just forgot my password and started with a new name..I remember coming across this thread a couple years ago but felt intimidated even trying topping being I had limited experiance... Now, with a few grows under my belt, im ready to step it up a notch par say..lol.. I have a few questions pertaining to topping to get 4 main colas...

Does topping to get 4 mains create more root mass? 
My setup will be 3 gallon pots vegged for 4 weeks then put into flower under a 600 and a 400 watt hps. with fox farms happy soil and oceans forest with added perlite...The strain is nirvana chrystal reg. Will my 3 gallon pots be big enough for this eqaution?
Also withy the large colas, do they need watered and fed more than reguler non topped plants? These questions my be dumb but im new to this topping techniqe and really have room for minimal mistakes.. 
Im sure my answers are probably in the pages of this thread b ut it would take hours to find them im sure...lol... Thak you sir for taking the time to read this and hopefully replying....


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 25, 2011)

smokey mcsmokester said:


> Does topping to get 4 mains create more root mass?


Welcome back.

Root mass increase? I'd say it doesn't matter what your technique is as root mass and flower production is driven by the amount of foliage mass and its health. It's also an issue of what comes first - the chicken or the egg.



> My setup will be 3 gallon pots vegged for 4 weeks then put into flower under a 600 and a 400 watt hps. with fox farms happy soil and oceans forest with added perlite...The strain is nirvana chrystal reg. Will my 3 gallon pots be big enough for this eqaution?


Should be. Can't really speculate though. If you have small spindly plants it may be too large due to insufficient roots to wick off soil moisture. If you have 8' tall plants with a lot of healthy foliage and a solid rootball, a 3 gallon pot will require frequent watering and can stunt the plant. Indoors using 3 gallon pots I had to water twice a day with at least 1 liter of water each time, but then again my plants have abundant foliage - by design.



> Also withy the large colas, do they need watered and fed more than reguler non topped plants?


Every one of these questions centers on basic plant botany. Get some books on indoor growing and stay away from cannabis forums for a while. To answer your question, watering is dependent on many factors but in general think of the root system as a sponge or a wick whereby leaf transpiration creates a negative cell pressure causing a intake at the roots. More the foliage and roots, the more often you'll have to water.


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## smokey mcsmokester (Sep 25, 2011)

Thanks a ton UB... I was wondering about root mass only because of having 4 main stems, But i now understand what you men... Thanks again...+rep...


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## ataxia (Sep 25, 2011)

hey ben .... i got busted.
wanna suggest some plants that are fun to grow with easy/moderate difficulty? indoors of course.
figure if there'd be anyone to ask it would be you..


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## jahbrudda (Sep 26, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> $8 -10/lid back in my days, 60's.
> 
> UB


I've been a lurker for the better part of year on this forum, I just about blew my coffee out when I heard you mention "lid" I grew up in the mid to late 70s and we still used that term then. LOL


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 26, 2011)

jahbrudda said:


> I've been a lurker for the better part of year on this forum, I just about blew my coffee out when I heard you mention "lid" I grew up in the mid to late 70s and we still used that term then. LOL


groovy!...

And topping back then probably referred to a mohawk hair cut.


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## mr.bond (Sep 27, 2011)

ahhh uncle ben... good to see you back mate. your topping guide is just about legend around here these days. cheers and thanks very much for helping this community!!!!!

regards,
mr. bond


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## fatboyOGOF (Sep 27, 2011)

i finally remembered to try this! putting notes on the veg room door works!!!! 

i topped two clones yesterday. the nodes are alternating (older plant) so i cut them above the 4th alternating node which i'm assuming is the same thing as the 2nd node if they were non alternating nodes. then again, i'm pretty high! 

this is the first time i've topped since the 90s. i typically tie them down. if nothing else, it will be interesting.


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## fatboyOGOF (Sep 27, 2011)

crap: i should have read more! lol. so much for topping my alternating node clones. i have a bunch of seedlings though so, i'll give it a go on them when they're a bit taller. 

Originally Posted by *regionaldragon*
What if you have alternating nodes instead of pairs of nodes, where do you top?

You can't. Nodes must be opposing for the double output thingie. If your nodes are alternating, you won't get the effect as the top node (leafset) will be at a point on the plant that has the greatest collection of auxins, the newest, highest tissue. Auxins control a plant's growing dynamics. When you pinch out the tip of a plant that is in a veg stage (has opposing nodes/leafsets) then basically the plant splits the auxins and sends them to the 2 dormant buds located at the axis of where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk". Viola, you get simultaneous output, two new leafsets as shown on page one of this thread.

Good luck,
UB


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## The45King (Sep 28, 2011)

snipped this clone in the usual place soon as it rooted
1 shoot didnt keep up so kept it as cuttin so i gotz 3 ha


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## doggyd (Sep 29, 2011)

How long does it usually take from when topped to new growth?


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## ChroniCDooM (Oct 2, 2011)

What up people? Just wanted to post some pics of the girl I harvested last night. She was topped and produced to Killa main colas! The strain is The Ultimate by Dutch Passion Seed Co. Grown in airpots using coco and canna nutes and also Atami Bloombastic. My light is a 270W Enhanced Spectrum Supernova LED and I also use co2. Thanks for the topping technique UB! I'll definitely top again!!


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 2, 2011)

ChroniCDooM said:


> What up people? Just wanted to post some pics of the girl I harvested last night. She was topped and produced to Killa main colas! The strain is The Ultimate by Dutch Passion Seed Co. Grown in airpots using coco and canna nutes and also Atami Bloombastic. My light is a 270W Enhanced Spectrum Supernova LED and I also use co2. Thanks for the topping technique UB! I'll definitely top again!!
> View attachment 1817156View attachment 1817157View attachment 1817158View attachment 1817160View attachment 1817161


Glad you're happy with your goodies! Good on ya!


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## doring (Oct 4, 2011)

someone grew these plants? have details about them?

http://www.cannabis-seeds-bank.co.uk/female-seeds-white-widow-x-big-bud/prod_1421.html

http://www.cannabis-seeds-bank.co.uk/samsara-seeds-el-alquimista-feminized/prod_1613.html


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## TinyGrow (Oct 5, 2011)

OneHit said:


> Yes, Im pretty sure that is the case



Yeah and I'm 100% that you are wrong lol... I've done this experiment plenty of times and yes, you are mistaken.

I dont care what any person on this forum has to say about the subject, when you top a plant - it grows 2 main kolas - to produce these kolas and thicken them out it takes more work for the plant. It WILL take longer to bud if topped. HOWEVER, if you are growing outdoors cannabis plants tend to "finish up" around the same time - the winter is coming - they know it - and they need to push these flowers/seeds out before the frost comes and they die. 

You are correct when you speak of outdoor plants, but not because of strain - yes a strain does have its over flowering time but when you top a plant expect that you just added another 2 weeks of flowering to your plant.


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## Justworkin (Oct 7, 2011)

Never grown outside but as for inside flowering time doesn't change if you top. Maybe veg a little longer so that the branches develop more but when they hit the 12/12 nothing changes. Personal experience.


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## Isisyogi (Oct 8, 2011)

lbezphil2005 said:


> Did you not read the first few pages, even the first few posts of this thread? There is a complete diagram with pics, drawings, everything, honestly, I dont' get you guys sometimes, a little reading goes a long way, fellas! The cotehydrons are the first leaves to appear when the seed sprouts. they are not considered "true leaves", okay? then you have the next set that comes out, a single blade "usually", that is your first set of tru leaves, okay? Then the next set to come out would be your second, etc.



I know where the nodes are. That being said, I have to say that I, who have read the beginning of this thread many, many times, as well as large portions of the rest (thank you Uncle Ben!!), have never been able to find the diagrams or pics indicating such. I've looked. Not once, not twice, but many, many times. So I don't know if there is some sort of glitch in the system, but I've even switched from three different devices, and have never seen it. Perhaps that happens for others as well. So maybe someone could find it in their heart to repost it. 

Uncle Ben, you are my guru of the green, and I thank you for your generous guidance. So happy I stumbled upon you, it isn't as easy as you think.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 8, 2011)

Isisyogi said:


> I know where the nodes are. That being said, I have to say that I, who have read the beginning of this thread many, many times, as well as large portions of the rest (thank you Uncle Ben!!), have never been able to find the diagrams or pics indicating such. I've looked. Not once, not twice, but many, many times. So I don't know if there is some sort of glitch in the system, but I've even switched from three different devices, and have never seen it. Perhaps that happens for others as well. So maybe someone could find it in their heart to repost it.
> 
> Uncle Ben, you are my guru of the green, and I thank you for your generous guidance. So happy I stumbled upon you, it isn't as easy as you think.


I gave you photos and site specific anatomy and now you want me draw you a picture? Try this, which has been tweeked. http://riddlem3.com/index.php/topic,1106.0.html


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## Isisyogi (Oct 10, 2011)

No, I don't need you to draw me a pic, my post was merely pointing out the fact that I wasn't able to see the images and perhaps others weren't able to either. Not sure if it's a glitch or whatever, but I tried to access them from 3 different computers. Like I said, I know where they nodes are, I no longer need the pics, just passing along information about the inability to access the images within this thread which are often referred to. 

Again, I thank you for your wealth of info.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 10, 2011)

Isisyogi said:


> No, I don't need you to draw me a pic, my post was merely pointing out the fact that I wasn't able to see the images and perhaps others weren't able to either. Not sure if it's a glitch or whatever, but I tried to access them from 3 different computers. Like I said, I know where they nodes are, I no longer need the pics, just passing along information about the inability to access the images within this thread which are often referred to.
> 
> Again, I thank you for your wealth of info.


Sounds like a tech problem on your end. Try different browsers, check on security settings (levels).

Good luck


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## The45King (Oct 12, 2011)

2 week later flowerinView attachment 1832855


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## leese (Oct 14, 2011)

Hi Uncle Ben,

Thank you so much for sharing your technique, I am really learning so much!

This is a great thread! I just got to post # 1000. Good Stuff!
I can't stay long. I have to get back to reading this thread.
I just wanted to say Thank You!

I am a newbie to growing, and I am doing my best to learn as much as I can.
My first two bag seed plants are just days away from harvest with milky white trichomes.
And no, I am not flushing, so I can do a partial harvest as the buds ripen, and maybe reveg.
Thank you for that tidbit of info, also.

I have another bag seed plant that I just performed the Uncle Ben Technique on yesterday.
Here is a copy and paste from my grow log:

10/14/11 lights: flower room 12/[email protected] hps, veg room 18/[email protected] mh, wash room vacant
- 11a flower room: roof 96.6 @ 20 %, canopy 92, veg room 87, lumatek 130, iat 73
- angel has 4 new nodes growing out of sides of original 2nd nodes
- angel's new nodes each have 3 leaves as big as original single 2nd node leaf
- all this in 25 hours from the cut! Thank You Uncle Ben!

Here are some pics Angel just 25 hours later:



And here is a pic of Angel in the veg room.
You can see her top in the rooting tub to the left.
And lastly, a shot of the flower room.



OK, Enough goofing off for me. I have to get back to my reading.

Thank You Uncle Ben, And Thank You Born2KillSpam.

leese


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## Marko420 (Oct 15, 2011)

Page 31, post 306 is the pictures you're looking for.


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## smokey mcsmokester (Oct 16, 2011)

Marko420 said:


> Page 31, post 306 is the pictures you're looking for.


So to clear this up, are the pics in post 306 showing the exact place to snip (or pinch) to get 4 main colas? Thanks...


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 16, 2011)

Looking good leese! Hope your harvest is bountiful.

Tio


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## AWnox (Oct 17, 2011)

Hello everyone, thank you first of all to Uncle Ben for this essential thread, definitely a must read for all inspiring growers out there. I do though have a question about topping if anyone has any thoughts...

I am currently growing Kalashnikova from GH; so far very bushy plant with a lot of inner branches and only 5 inches tall and 17 days old (since she was put in the WF). It has 5 nodes (not counting the already perished cotyledons) and it's 6th node is emerging and is about 1/2 inch tall. The latest developed node (5th) has a full 7 leafs. My query is just where should I top to have 2 main tops and if you would consider this beneficial taking into account the already developed heavy branching from the lower nodes. As you can probably tell this is my first grow and I know I am over thinking things but that's something in my nature I can't turn off unfortunately. In any case I want the maximum yield for my space (20x32x61) without compromising quality. That being said I ask if I should even consider topping because the Klashnikova is doing surprisingly well despite all the grow reports I've read so far, she is branching out tremendously, some of the lower node branches are catching up with the main stalk already, for 17 days she seems huge compared to most grows here on RIU and the nutes are right on point (450ppm today), she's drinking a lot of water and ppm's have remained the same or lower so I don't know how topping her might affect her and if it's really worth it my first time around you know? I do plan to SCROG in the near future (next 10-15 days) and I know that some grows that use WF's have not topped and still were able to SCROG and had a very positive result so... thus my pondering and this post. Any info or advice anyone wants to share by all means do my friends. Thanks again for the great thread Uncle Ben.


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## Garcia Vega (Oct 19, 2011)

Uncle Ben's technique is phenomenal, however I have a quick question?
The UB technique was applied to 9 female plants (2 Purple Haze, 2 Vanilla Kush, 2 Tangerine Dream, 2 LSD, 1 Critical Jack) at the 2nd true node as to get the 4 colas displayed in the pictures. 

Now this is my first time trying the Uncle Ben technique, and although it has provided a great sling-shot affect with 2 colas, I did not get any females with 4 colas. They are 2 weeks into flower and looking super, but I would love to have the 4 colas.

Is there any advice, or pointer as to why pinching at the 2nd node would not result in 4 colas, but 2 colas????
Please help with info or feedback, thanks!


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 20, 2011)

Garcia Vega said:


> Uncle Ben's technique is phenomenal, however I have a quick question?
> The UB technique was applied to 9 female plants (2 Purple Haze, 2 Vanilla Kush, 2 Tangerine Dream, 2 LSD, 1 Critical Jack) at the 2nd true node as to get the 4 colas displayed in the pictures.
> 
> Now this is my first time trying the Uncle Ben technique, and although it has provided a great sling-shot affect with 2 colas, I did not get any females with 4 colas. They are 2 weeks into flower and looking super, but I would love to have the 4 colas.
> ...


Sounds like the auxins have primarily collected in the upper colas, terminal tips. Mama nature's way regarding apical dominance - the top rules, laterals get the leftovers. You will get 4 colas but more than likely the top 2 will be dominant and larger.

Focus on producing the most root and foliage mass and retaining it until harvest. Hint - Bloom foods are not your friend.

Have fun,
UB


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## smoke n strum (Oct 20, 2011)

your topping method worked for me UB, thanks.


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## T Ray (Oct 20, 2011)

smoke n strum said:


> fdd2blk, you are are fucking retard


What does this have to do with Uncle Ben's topping technique? I think your comment was not needed and in the wrong thread bro. Unless you have something to ask about this technique I think you need to keep your negativity to yourself and stay off this thread. This thread/technique is very informative for people who actually want to learn a thing or two.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 20, 2011)

smoke n strum said:


> ban me then.. tired ffd2blk fucking this site up with his stupid childish shit. read back 10 pages where he intentionallly gives stupid info to fuck up peoples grows. what mission is he on? If anyone here had any sense they would boot that morons ass out of here. the wind is whistling threw the door of this srte with people leaving and its his fault along with all the trolls on here. I make no apologies for telling it like it is... later


The fuck up has been dealt with, months ago by admin. If you want a clean thread to where I as mod can take out the trash, go here - http://riddlem3.com/index.php/topic,1106.0.html


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## T Ray (Oct 20, 2011)

I can't ban you. I have no authority. I have no problem with you hashing it out with whoever, but I would say if your going to say something like you did that you should of quoted what it was you were saying it to. Calling someone a "fucking retard" w/out any example of why they are, makes you look like...well you get it.

Plus your drumming up shit from months ago bro.


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## boneheadbob (Oct 20, 2011)

I waited untill about 6 weeks and my plants were about a foot tall. Instead of topping I just pinched the very top part of the new growth.

It grew out crazy twisted leafs and lots of bud sites although it seemed to take a long time to grow back out


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## AWnox (Oct 20, 2011)

UncleBen if and when possible may you please take a look at my post in the previous page? Would really appreciate your feedback. Thank you for your time. 

Have a good day everyone.


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## smoke n strum (Oct 20, 2011)

T Ray said:


> I can't ban you. I have no authority. I have no problem with you hashing it out with whoever, but I would say if your going to say something like you did that you should of quoted what it was you were saying it to. Calling someone a "fucking retard" w/out any example of why they are, makes you look like...well you get it.
> 
> Plus your drumming up shit from months ago bro.


I've been out of the loop for awhile bro.. didnt mean to piss in your cornflakes.. sns


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## boneheadbob (Oct 20, 2011)

I never thought of fdd as a f n retard. More of a dickhead with mad skills.
This will probaly be someones sig like the last time 
No disrespect meant fdd, Im a dickhead too, better a dickhead then a ahole is what I tell em.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 20, 2011)

AWnox said:


> UncleBen if and when possible may you please take a look at my post in the previous page? Would really appreciate your feedback. Thank you for your time.
> 
> Have a good day everyone.


What exactly is your question?


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## Garcia Vega (Oct 20, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Sounds like the auxins have primarily collected in the upper colas, terminal tips. Mama nature's way regarding apical dominance - the top rules, laterals get the leftovers. You will get 4 colas but more than likely the top 2 will be dominant and larger.
> 
> Focus on producing the most root and foliage mass and retaining it until harvest. Hint - Bloom foods are not your friend.
> 
> ...



"Focus on producing the most root and foliage mass and retaining it until harvest. Hint - Bloom foods are not your friend." 
When you say Bloom foods are not your friend are you meaning during Veg Stage or do you mean once the light cycle changes? The Hint is truly appreciated, but I just need a little bit more clarity as why

Also if you don't mind explaining how I could over-power mother nature and possible push more of the auxins into the bottom 2 cola branches? Have you had this issue before and how did you strengthen up the bottom 2 colas?


Thanks so Much Uncle Ben!!!


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## boneheadbob (Oct 20, 2011)

You dont need to give cannabis high amounts of Phosphorous during 12/12.
I would tell what to use but uncle ben would banish me from riddleme. You will have to go back a few pages and start routing information to your brain. As a matter of fact I would delete that question before you start reading and before UB gets back


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## AWnox (Oct 20, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> What exactly is your question?


Basically it's if it's worth topping a plant that is super bushy and that I've never topped before or had experiences with specially since it's doing so good now and growing so fast? I don't wanna mess up something that's good you know. So would it be worth it you think?


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## boneheadbob (Oct 20, 2011)

Can you describe super bushy?


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 20, 2011)

Garcia Vega said:


> "Focus on producing the most root and foliage mass and retaining it until harvest. Hint - Bloom foods are not your friend."
> When you say Bloom foods are not your friend are you meaning during Veg Stage or do you mean once the light cycle changes? The Hint is truly appreciated, but I just need a little bit more clarity as why


I bet that 99% of noobs fall for the bloom food line during bloom and then wonder why they end up with popcorn buds and no leaves come harvest. Bloom foods are fine once in a while, just don't use them exclusively during flowering.

Can't mess with mama nature, she always wins. It is what it is.

UB


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## AWnox (Oct 20, 2011)

boneheadbob said:


> Can you describe super bushy?


Super bushy as in she's only 20 days old today and she's by her 8th node and each one is about 1 inche from each other or less (super short plant about 7 inches) and from each node there are branches coming out from the node intersection that some already reach the same length as the main stem. The biggest leaf measures at 7 inches from tip of the leaf to the stem and it already has it's full 7 leaf sets on 2 of the nodes. She's growing furiously you could say, so my question is that would you think it's worth topping considering her "bushiness" and her great growth so far?


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## smoke n strum (Oct 20, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> I bet that 99% of noobs fall for the bloom food line during bloom and then wonder why they end up with popcorn buds and no leaves come harvest. Bloom foods are fine once in a while, just don't use them exclusively during flowering.
> 
> Can't mess with mama nature, she always wins. It is what it is.
> 
> UB


Ub, I have a question regarding bloom foods. In reading J.R.Peters website, he has a recipe for success so to speak for tomatoes which uses the dynamic duo which is 20-20-20 all purpose used along with their 10-30-20 blossom booster. It specifically says to start with blossom booster (new young plant) to start building a strong root system then use the all purpose when the plant is ready to start rapid vegetative growth. I believe you are familiar with that recipe. you might be the one who referred me to it... not sure. Do you agree with that way of thinking in general, without getting into details about what's already in the soil etc., or should a person use a higher N Fert to start cannabis?


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## boneheadbob (Oct 20, 2011)

There are all kinds of problems with synthetic, high-nitrogen fertilizers. The primary problem is that there&#8217;s too much nitrogen. It creates an unbalanced situation as far as nutrients in the soil and in plants. 

High levels of nitrogen and low levels of trace minerals force fast growth that results in very weak watery cell growth in plants. People see the plants are growing and flowering so they think everything is fine. But the imbalance and the watery cells bring on insects and diseases. Nature&#8217;s job is to take out sick plants and to encourage the survival of the fittest. 

And, the form of nitrogen is wrong. It works too fast. Plus, it&#8217;s soluble. If it rains after you put it out, it washes away and leaches through the soil into the water stream. 

The second problem is the phosphorous source. The phosphorous in synthetic fertilizer is usually triple super phosphate 0-46-0 made by treating rock phosphate with phosphoric acid. Years ago the phosphorous source was 0-20-0 or super phosphate. It was pretty darn good even though it was created by a synthetic process. Rock phosphate was made by treatment with with sulfuric acid. It was a more balanced phosphate and did not tie up trace minerals. 

Well, somebody came up with the notion to use phosphoric acid to create more phosphorous for less money. So now all the synthetic fertilizer manufacturers use triple super phosphate. Big problem &#8211; the new material is so raw and so bare that when it&#8217;s put on the soil, it grabs and locks onto magnesium, manganese and all sorts of other trace minerals. It ties up these nutrients making them unavailable to plants.

The third problem is potassium. The source of potassium in most synthetic fertilizers is muriate of potash or potassium chloride. Potassium chloride is bad on specific types of crops &#8211; especially fruit crops. It&#8217;s also harsh on the soil. What we like as a potassium source is potassium sulfate. It&#8217;s made from the salt of The Great Salt Lake. 


http://www.dirtdoctor.com/Synthetic-vs-Organic-Fertilizers-Can-Plants-Tell-the-Difference_vq131.htm


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## boneheadbob (Oct 20, 2011)

One big reason to top your plants is too make them bushy and to keep them smaller.

Sounds like you dont need to top. Plus some strains are better left untopped


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## AWnox (Oct 20, 2011)

boneheadbob said:


> One big reason to top your plants is too make them bushy and to keep them smaller.
> 
> Sounds like you dont need to top. Plus some strains are better left untopped


Thanks for the reply boneheadbob. Looks like this Kalashnikova might be one of those cases. For a first time I would consider "proper" even to just let it due it's thing and she what shes got on her own. Maybe at a later grow i'll experiment some more.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 20, 2011)

smoke n strum said:


> Ub, I have a question regarding bloom foods. In reading J.R.Peters website, he has a recipe for success so to speak for tomatoes which uses the dynamic duo which is 20-20-20 all purpose used along with their 10-30-20 blossom booster. It specifically says to start with blossom booster (new young plant) to start building a strong root system then use the all purpose when the plant is ready to start rapid vegetative growth. I believe you are familiar with that recipe. you might be the one who referred me to it... not sure. Do you agree with that way of thinking in general, without getting into details about what's already in the soil etc., or should a person use a higher N Fert to start cannabis?


Jack's advice aside, the question should be, "what amount of P is required by plants to support a strong root system?" I think that perhaps Jack is selling his products. Look, I just got in the mail today a soil analysis from Texas A&M and there's a clear warning including a sheet on the negative effects of too much P. Since my soil shows too much P, the recommendation is to not add any P, in any kind of form manure or otherwise for at least 5 years. Talking veggie garden. Same applies with cannabis and potting soils. Watch the high P foods. They will induce Fe and Zn deficiencies which piled on top of each often mask what is really going on regarding the symptoms of chlorosis and/or bleaching of new leaves..

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 20, 2011)

boneheadbob said:


> There are all kinds of problems with synthetic, high-nitrogen fertilizers. The primary problem is that there&#8217;s too much nitrogen. It creates an unbalanced situation as far as nutrients in the soil and in plants.
> 
> High levels of nitrogen and low levels of trace minerals force fast growth that results in very weak watery cell growth in plants. People see the plants are growing and flowering so they think everything is fine. But the imbalance and the watery cells bring on insects and diseases. Nature&#8217;s job is to take out sick plants and to encourage the survival of the fittest.
> 
> ...


Every one of those statements is false. I'm gonna leave it at that.

UB


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## smoke n strum (Oct 20, 2011)

Thanks UB... there's bad advice everywhere (except from you of course). It sounded reasonable though. I learned quite a bit in my first grow... I was very hesitant at first to fertilize for fear of overdoing it. I think that actually served me well because it kept me from over doing it and ruining the grow. Toward the end, I was starting to have nutrient problems because the plants were too big to move around in the tight space I grew them in, so for the last 6 to seven weeks I could not leech the soil and I had a lot of salt build up in the soil. If I would have had to grow them another month, I think I would have had serious nutrient problems.. I also did not put any lime in my soil mix, that was a mistake. You are right too about us noobs.. even though I knew what you say about bloom foods I still over did it, giving bloom booster exclusively for the last month or so. Luckily they finished before I caused too much damage and everything turned out good. I bought the book by Jose Cervantez.. The Bible... Pretty good for a lot of stuff, but some pretty lame instructions in there as well... like start your seeds in Jiffy pots... I hate Jiffy pots.. do people actually get plants to grow in those things?l
sns


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## jakesnake (Oct 20, 2011)

Reading all your info was as helpful as seemorebuds or jorgecervantes, I appreciate it all. The 4 coala method I used on my first plant, and I'll probably use it on every plant forever. It creates a perfect double U of the 4 main branches every time. it really is amazing.

thanks so much.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 21, 2011)

smoke n strum said:


> .....I was very hesitant at first to fertilize for fear of overdoing it.


I see such mistakes a lot with new growers. They will starve their plants AND give them the wrong NPK values not bothering to seek out and understand plant nutrition but you can sure count on them to spew label names with the latest and greatest snake oil releases, again not caring or knowing what's really in the bottle.



> I think that actually served me well because it kept me from over doing it and ruining the grow. Toward the end, I was starting to have nutrient problems because the plants were too big to move around in the tight space I grew them in, so for the last 6 to seven weeks I could not leech the soil and I had a lot of salt build up in the soil. If I would have had to grow them another month, I think I would have had serious nutrient problems.. I also did not put any lime in my soil mix, that was a mistake. You are right too about us noobs.. even though I knew what you say about bloom foods I still over did it, giving bloom booster exclusively for the last month or so. Luckily they finished before I caused too much damage and everything turned out good. I bought the book by Jose Cervantez.. The Bible... Pretty good for a lot of stuff, but some pretty lame instructions in there as well... like start your seeds in Jiffy pots... I hate Jiffy pots.. do people actually get plants to grow in those things?l
> sns


You're right, Jiffy pots suck. The best vigor you're gonna get for a quick and fast seedling start is by following my germ procedure, the most important issue being choosing an opaque pot at least 6" tall to germ in. The second trick to plant vigor, health, and production is using a root tip pruning container, one that is designed and made to actually direct the roots outside. I'm playing with Root Maker products as we speak.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 21, 2011)

jakesnake said:


> Reading all your info was as helpful as seemorebuds or jorgecervantes, I appreciate it all. The 4 coala method I used on my first plant, and I'll probably use it on every plant forever. It creates a perfect double U of the 4 main branches every time. it really is amazing.
> 
> thanks so much.


So easy even a cave man can do it.


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## AWnox (Oct 21, 2011)

With all due respect to UB and the mod of this thread but I feel some animosity towards noobs here that I don't see in other areas of the RIU forum. Remember guys you were ALL noobs at one point and without them the future of growers is dim. I do appreciate the thread made to help them but there is no need to get feisty over simple questions. We were not all born with green thumbs and no question is a stupid one just misinformed. I understand that this is "Advanced MJ Cultivation" area but you can simply redirect them to the proper area of the forum instead of not paying them attention or being rude just because their noobs or made a "stupid" question. 

UncleBen sorry to hijack this thread I don't mean to troll or spam or anything of the sorts, just felt like it had to be said. 

Have a good day everyone.


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## boneheadbob (Oct 21, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Every one of those statements is false. I'm gonna leave it at that.
> 
> UB


Sorry bout that. I was looking in other places for info instead of cannabis forums filled with conflicting info.
I better stick to university and reputable horticulture info instead of "the dirt doctor"


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## boneheadbob (Oct 21, 2011)

AWnox said:


> With all due respect to UB and the mod of this thread but I feel some animosity towards noobs here that I don't see in other areas of the RIU forum. Remember guys you were ALL noobs at one point and without them the future of growers is dim. I do appreciate the thread made to help them but there is no need to get feisty over simple questions. We were not all born with green thumbs and no question is a stupid one just misinformed. I understand that this is "Advanced MJ Cultivation" area but you can simply redirect them to the proper area of the forum instead of not paying them attention or being rude just because their noobs or made a "stupid" question.
> 
> UncleBen sorry to hijack this thread I don't mean to troll or spam or anything of the sorts, just felt like it had to be said.
> 
> Have a good day everyone.


The problem is newbies do not take any time to find the answer to the simple question that has already been asked twenty times in the thread.

By telling them to read the thread or go to the faq page enriches their lives, even if they dont realize it. Many of them are just lazy. If they took the time to read for an hour time they can answer their own question and learn a whole bunch at the same time.

Its like teaching a man to fish instead of giving him a fish


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## boneheadbob (Oct 21, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> but they will.


lol of course they will including telling you, big deal about your bushes and they might not even be about your plants like they do in the AZ forum. And dont start with whats wrong with Arizonans. You have more then your share of knuckleheads in Cal.


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## titanweb (Oct 27, 2011)

here's my cfl grow with multiple topped plants using the same technique


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## The45King (Oct 29, 2011)

Thought id add this pic i originally topped for 2 mains this time and wasnt happy how it was lookin so
i topped again to get back to my usual 4 mains
peace


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## johnnyflavours (Oct 31, 2011)

yours is a winning concept. what is your exact soil recipe ??


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## wiimb (Oct 31, 2011)

hiya mate, was just wondering if you facyed checking my grow out, click my sig


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## smokey mcsmokester (Oct 31, 2011)

Hey Ub, I topped my ladies 2 days ago after they had grown 5 nodes.. I topped them to get 4 mains... Tonight I noticed the new growth is folding in half upward like a v... Is this normal? I wouldn't know being I've never topped my plants before and never had this problem... There not completely folded in half but id say at least 1/4 of the way... Im also seeing what appears to be a purple color on the new growth that hasn't opened yet... Im using ff oceans forest mixed with happy frog in 5 gallon buckets feeding them 3 teaspoons of grow big and 2 tbls of big bloom every other watering which is once a week... They are 2 1/2 weeks old and Ive fed them twice, the last time was the day before I topped them....Just figured I would give you my rundown in case it's something else....Thanks...


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## nick17gar (Oct 31, 2011)

yea this shit works. i tried topping for the first time this go around, tried above and below the node. got some with 4 and some with 2 colas. i prefer the 4 cola method. 
-i should add, the ones with 4 colas, goes thru water a lot faster then the ones with 2. anyone else notice this?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 1, 2011)

smokey mcsmokester said:


> Hey Ub, I topped my ladies 2 days ago after they had grown 5 nodes.. I topped them to get 4 mains... Tonight I noticed the new growth is folding in half upward like a v... Is this normal? I wouldn't know being I've never topped my plants before and never had this problem...


Has nothing to do with my topping method. You've got a moisture stress problem brought on by your culture --> ".....*Im using ff oceans forest mixed with happy frog in 5 gallon buckets feeding them 3 teaspoons of grow big and 2 tbls of big bloom every"

*You're literally gonna force them, to death, with the application of too much salts. Also, what's with the Big Bloom stuff? If you haven't fried the plants by now you're sure set yourself for premature leaf drop. Pick up a book on indoor plant culture and nutrition and learn a bit of botanical common sense.....which isn't found in cannabis forums BTW. 

What's the final NPK values that the plant sees or are you feeding them those fertilizers cause you like the label name or someone here recommended the product?

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 1, 2011)

nick17gar said:


> yea this shit works. i tried topping for the first time this go around, tried above and below the node. got some with 4 and some with 2 colas. i prefer the 4 cola method.
> -i should add, the ones with 4 colas, goes thru water a lot faster then the ones with 2. anyone else notice this?


Of course it's gonna go thru more water, there's more leaf mass.


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## smokey mcsmokester (Nov 1, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Has nothing to do with my topping method. You've got a moisture stress problem brought on by your culture --> ".....*Im using ff oceans forest mixed with happy frog in 5 gallon buckets feeding them 3 teaspoons of grow big and 2 tbls of big bloom every"*
> 
> You're literally gonna force them, to death, with the application of too much salts. Also, what's with the Big Bloom stuff? If you haven't fried the plants by now you're sure set yourself for premature leaf drop. Pick up a book on indoor plant culture and nutrition and learn a bit of botanical common sense.....which isn't found in cannabis forums BTW.
> 
> ...


 


I figured it had nothing to do with it....This is the feeding schedule I've been following 

"https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/164183-fox-farm-feeding-schedule.html"

The grow big is 6-4-4 and the big bloom is 0.01-0.3-0.7...

After reading a bit (after feeding them) (doh) about the salts in the foods, I knew this was the problem.... Good thing is this has only happened to 4 out of my 9 plants... Im thinking of holding off from feeding them for at least 2 or 3 weeks.. I thank you sir for all your words of wisdom and taking the time to help me out...Ive never had these issues with my other grows because Ive never used thes organic nutes.... What do you reccomend for a feed schedule... Thanks again UB....


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 1, 2011)

smokey mcsmokester said:


> I figured it had nothing to do with it....This is the feeding schedule I've been following
> 
> "https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/164183-fox-farm-feeding-schedule.html"
> 
> ...


Sorry, I have no feeding schedule for you as botany can not be painted with a black and a white brush. Nothing you have or are doing would be the same as mine.

What you have to do is include the salts in the soil with everything else. As I said in my Moisture Stress link leaf rolling or cupping is a plant's response to moisture stress brought on by a saline condition at the roots.


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## fatboyOGOF (Nov 5, 2011)

i haven't topped since the 90s, but i got curious about having 4 main colas. i have some afghani #1s going and those woody things don't take to tying down. i like the way they look and they are definatly less work than tieing them down a few times. i topped a few ssh clones too. i'm curious to see the yeild of the topped clones (all have 3 main branches) vs the tied down clones (which have 5 or more smaller mains). thanks ben! 





this one has 4 main brances but 2 of them are much smaller.



the girls!


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 5, 2011)

fatboyOGOF said:


> i haven't topped since the 90s, but i got curious about having 4 main colas. i have some afghani #1s going and those woody things don't take to tying down. i like the way they look and they are definatly less work than tieing them down a few times. i topped a few ssh clones too. i'm curious to see the yeild of the topped clones (all have 3 main branches) vs the tied down clones (which have 5 or more smaller mains). thanks ben!
> 
> View attachment 1872138
> 
> ...


Those are really nice looking plants. Curious, I see some over lapping of the leaves but is it consistent across all plants? Also, are you getting a strong skunk smell?


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## fatboyOGOF (Nov 6, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Those are really nice looking plants. Curious, I see some over lapping of the leaves but is it consistent across all plants? Also, are you getting a strong skunk smell?


thanks! i'm pretty happy with them. healthy and happy! 

i'm not sure what you're asking about over lapping! if you're asking about the crowded conditions, yes, my grows are usually very crowded and i always have leaves covering up other leaves. i move the pots every watering. usually. ok sometimes! it's my messy, lazy, growing style! got any suggestions?

i haven't smelled them yet. they are about 5 days into flower and a good 3 inches taller. 

the down side is, i know the biggest and most beautiful are males! they are always males!


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## Wrecks (Nov 6, 2011)

Topping is fun! 

Before






After






I Think I'll veg these for two weeks after this final topping. Day 35 from dry seed to today


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## fatboyOGOF (Nov 6, 2011)

i was looking up something and found this on something called lapping. i'm too high to grasp this at the moment. i think this is saying that the plants should be close enough to ensure the leaves overlap a bit. 

Most experienced farmers and crop advisers recognize that if plants are not &#8220;lapping in the middles&#8221; by the flowering stage, yields will be reduced. What this means is the canopy has not closed because leaf area has not developed properly to maximize the capture of sunlight. For many crops, the leaf area index (LAI)&#8212;the ratio of leaf area to land surface area&#8212;should be above 3.0 to 5.0 at flowering to achieve good yields. Plant population is a key factor in achieving the optimum leaf area growth rate. So, both row width and the number of plants per foot of row must be optimized to achieve high yields. 


http://www.ipni.net/ppiweb/agbrief.nsf/5a4b8be72a35cd46852568d9001a18da/2e5ad0e16f8a463885256d970065ee4f!OpenDocument


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 6, 2011)

fatboyOGOF said:


> thanks! i'm pretty happy with them. healthy and happy!
> 
> i'm not sure what you're asking about over lapping! if you're asking about the crowded conditions, yes, my grows are usually very crowded and i always have leaves covering up other leaves. i move the pots every watering. usually. ok sometimes! it's my messy, lazy, growing style! got any suggestions?
> 
> ...


Real indicas will have wide overlapping leaves as opposed to narrow leaves of a sativa. Indicas also have a skunk smell. I grew some Sag indica doms that smelt so skunky you could smell 'em getting out of your car at my driveway, and the house was sealed tight. If you can't smell them, they aint indica. Attached is such a plant, a Peak19 male that I used for breeding. Notice the large leafsets at the bottom. They are as big as dinner plates with wide overlapping leaves. BTW, this plant is only 3 weeks old from the time the seeds popped the soil's surface.


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## cheddar1985 (Nov 6, 2011)

Ub not all indica dom plants smell skunky sum yes but not all !! Nice lookin male btw wot did u throw at it?


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## fatboyOGOF (Nov 6, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Real indicas will have wide overlapping leaves as opposed to narrow leaves of a sativa. Indicas also have a skunk smell. I grew some Sag indica doms that smelt so skunky you could smell 'em getting out of your car at my driveway, and the house was sealed tight. If you can't smell them, they aint indica. Attached is such a plant, a Peak19 male that I used for breeding. Notice the large leafsets at the bottom. They are as big as dinner plates with wide overlapping leaves. BTW, this plant is only 3 weeks old from the time the seeds popped the soil's surface.
> 
> View attachment 1874151


SWEET JESUS! 3 WEEKS? how many goats did you have to sacrifice? what a beauty! 

mine are definately indicaish leaves. much broader than my sativa/indica crosses. i never knew about the leaf overlapping of indicas! each fan leaf of my afghanis is directly over the one below it. the leaves on my ssh (sativaish pheno) do not do this. i'm assuming that's what you mean.

my afghani #1 came from sensi seeds back in the 90s. their verbiage on it says that it's a pure indica. it also mentions that it has no skunk in it! it could be all bullshit for all i know! 

i've never had a genetic with dinner plate sized leafs but i keep looking!


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## GreenGurl (Nov 6, 2011)

I saw a copy cat thread and just posted this thank you pic there; thought I'd also post here for you to see.  Your technique is working great for me!


This baby gave me 3.44.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 7, 2011)

fatboyOGOF said:


> SWEET JESUS! 3 WEEKS? how many goats did you have to sacrifice? what a beauty!


1 goat and my wife's Wednesday bridge game. 



> mine are definately indicaish leaves. much broader than my sativa/indica crosses. i never knew about the leaf overlapping of indicas! each fan leaf of my afghanis is directly over the one below it. the leaves on my ssh (sativaish pheno) do not do this. i'm assuming that's what you mean.


No. In a leafset you have so many leaves, right? Those leaves are so wide, broad, that they overlap each other in that leafset. The leaves start out "narrow" when young and as they mature they widen such that one leaf overlaps the other.



> my afghani #1 came from sensi seeds back in the 90s. their verbiage on it says that it's a pure indica. it also mentions that it has no skunk in it! it could be all bullshit for all i know!
> 
> i've never had a genetic with dinner plate sized leafs but i keep looking!


That one (Peak19) came from Sagamartha back in the 80's. Believe it's Matanuska Thunderfuck X Colombian.

The first Skunk #1 had Mexican X Colombian crossed with afghani. The photos in the first post are the Original Sensi Skunk.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 7, 2011)

GreenGurl said:


> I saw a copy cat thread and just posted this thank you pic there; thought I'd also post here for you to see.  Your technique is working great for me!
> View attachment 1874872
> 
> This baby gave me 3.44.


Ya done good!


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## Samwell Seed Well (Nov 7, 2011)

very nice UB and wrecks also looking very nice, i just started topping early 

i know the plant looks like shit UB but what do you think of the topping ive done should i top it agian before its transferred to its final 7g pot


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## nitro harley (Nov 7, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Real indicas will have wide overlapping leaves as opposed to narrow leaves of a sativa. Indicas also have a skunk smell. I grew some Sag indica doms that smelt so skunky you could smell 'em getting out of your car at my driveway, and the house was sealed tight. If you can't smell them, they aint indica. Attached is such a plant, a Peak19 male that I used for breeding. Notice the large leafsets at the bottom. They are as big as dinner plates with wide overlapping leaves. BTW, this plant is only 3 weeks old from the time the seeds popped the soil's surface.
> 
> View attachment 1874151


I grow an indica alot like what you got going there....It has such a strong skunky smell I have to be careful where I smoke it....At two weeks we had leaves that were 12" accross....I cut some of them off so light could get into the bush... ...The pic with the tape measure was at 2 weeks...the rest are 3 weeks....from clones not seeds...


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 9, 2011)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> very nice UB and wrecks also looking very nice, i just started topping early
> 
> i know the plant looks like shit UB but what do you think of the topping ive done should i top it agian before its transferred to its final 7g pot


Plant looks fine. I wouldn't top again unless you don't have much headroom.


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## DGT309 (Nov 9, 2011)

this was about 3 weeks ago and they're all going into flowering this week !


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## sso (Nov 9, 2011)

its so green its like a hulk movie


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## BigBudzzzz (Nov 9, 2011)

nitro harley said:


> I grow an indica alot like what you got going there....It has such a strong skunky smell I have to be careful where I smoke it....At two weeks we had leaves that were 12" accross....I cut some of them off so light could get into the bush... ...The pic with the tape measure was at 2 weeks...the rest are 3 weeks....from clones not seeds...


When you said that pix was 2 weeks old, I was like WTF are you giving that plant until I got to the from Clone part!! Good looking plants, they gonna be monsters!


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## BigBudzzzz (Nov 9, 2011)

Topped twice and this is what I got.


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## albsure (Nov 10, 2011)

I love the way you keep it real. Keep it up.


Uncle Ben said:


> Excellent points, I see your hip to sativas. I got flamed, harassed and insulted by the punks at PG showing sativa bud in 2 gallon baggies, shots taken from 6' away which didn't show anything of course. Those PG MJ nerds don't have a clue, just suckas for pimps hawking sugar coated buds and snake oils.  This is what Uncle Ben's "hay" looks like up close:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## WaxxyNuggets (Nov 13, 2011)

Uncle Ben after reading your thread, just have to chime in and say you're the man. I almost topped clones (a few....) that were still producing alternating nodes and a post of yours saved my ass. Appreciate the wealth of knowledge your willing to share.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 14, 2011)

Glad to help.


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## Kaz666is (Nov 15, 2011)

Hey ub I did the same technique for years now (topping above node 2 for maximum yield) well atleast 4 tops then I stumbled upon your thread. Good to see others using this technique it's more reliable then fimming which is a load of crap. Just want to say I got over 70 oz from one fat plant x 4 of em.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 15, 2011)

Kaz666is said:


> Hey ub I did the same technique for years now (topping above node 2 for maximum yield) well atleast 4 tops then I stumbled upon your thread. Good to see others using this technique it's more reliable then fimming which is a load of crap. Just want to say I got over 70 oz from one fat plant x 4 of em.


 Nice!......


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## lerster (Nov 16, 2011)

Hey Uncle Ben,
First post on here btw, I've been using this technique and so far so good, Im doing these on clones with alternating nodes, since I do them fairly early (as soon as the 3rd or 4 nodes pop up), my question is will it work on clones or does it have to be from seeds?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 16, 2011)

lerster said:


> Hey Uncle Ben,
> First post on here btw, I've been using this technique and so far so good, Im doing these on clones with alternating nodes, since I do them fairly early (as soon as the 3rd or 4 nodes pop up), my question is will it work on clones or does it have to be from seeds?


Register - http://riddlem3.com/index.php/topic,1106.0.html


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## BigBudzzzz (Nov 16, 2011)

UB you didnt comment on #4046. Did I do it right?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 17, 2011)

BigBudzzzz said:


> UB you didnt comment on #4046. Did I do it right?


Kinda hard to tell with all the string, but it looks OK to me. It's really hard to screw this thing up. As long as you cut above the first or 2nd node and had opposing branches, it's a no brainer. 

Good luck,
UB


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## albsure (Nov 17, 2011)

Thanks for a great thread UB. I'm doing an indoor grow for the first time and my plants just now have either a fifth or sixth node on them; I have eight plants. I read in one of the earlier posts that you said that you veg. for the same amount of time even after you do this. I was waiting for my plants to get about 12 inches tall before I switched to 12/12 lights. Since snipping just above the second node for your method will make the plant very small, should I just continue to let it veg. for as long as it takes to reach 12 inches? They have already vegged for about a month but they aren't very tall with the tallest one being 9 inches, after snipping they will probably be about 4 inches tall. The reason I picked 12 inches is that the strain of seeds I'm using are suppose to grow to about 36 inches tall and switching to flower at 12 inches should give me the 36 inch tall plant. Am I thinking right about this? Again first grow so this is all new to me.


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## hippy132 (Nov 18, 2011)

Great thread and I am reading as fast as possible but very long and informative. Having a discussion of what the ph should be for the watering of inside plants. I was told 6.5 and others are saying 5.8 -6.0, what do you use indoors with soil. any input would help, and I am sure its been covered, but couldn&#8217;t find it. Thanks again...


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 19, 2011)

albsure said:


> Thanks for a great thread UB. I'm doing an indoor grow for the first time and my plants just now have either a fifth or sixth node on them; I have eight plants. I read in one of the earlier posts that you said that you veg. for the same amount of time even after you do this. I was waiting for my plants to get about 12 inches tall before I switched to 12/12 lights. Since snipping just above the second node for your method will make the plant very small, should I just continue to let it veg. for as long as it takes to reach 12 inches? They have already vegged for about a month but they aren't very tall with the tallest one being 9 inches, after snipping they will probably be about 4 inches tall. The reason I picked 12 inches is that the strain of seeds I'm using are suppose to grow to about 36 inches tall and switching to flower at 12 inches should give me the 36 inch tall plant. Am I thinking right about this? Again first grow so this is all new to me.


Snip, veg, flower.


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## switch (Nov 20, 2011)

Yo guys, i used this method for 4 colas about a week ago, so far so good im liking what im seeing, plants are bushing out nicely, just one question for you...how tall shall i let the girls veg before switching em?? What is the ideal height? Mine are all about 9-10 inches at the moment at their tallest points.

Sorry if this question has already been asked i dont quite have time to read through every single post on here.


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## albsure (Nov 20, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Snip, veg, flower.


 Yeah I kind of got the steps. My question was, after snipping, how long do I veg.? They have already vegged for 4 weeks. Do I veg. another four weeks of veg. to get them back to the height they were before snipping or am I just supposed to guess how much longer I'm supposed to veg.? If I knew how long "veg." was supposed to be after snipping I wouldn't be asking. It appears to me, being a newbie and not really knowing for sure what I'm supposed to do, I've read many things but it's my first time growing indoors, that after snipping, veg. almost starts over from the beginning. Is that right?


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## smokey mcsmokester (Nov 20, 2011)

Hey UB, Just wanted to let you know I've read quite a bit about botany and have a way better understanding now, I actually feel stupid with some of the questions I've ask you on this thread.... My chrystal are coming along great since I overnuted the hell out of them. And your right, I did have premature leave drop... Just thought id drop by and say thank you for the stern replies.. Ive learned nutes are way over rated... I finally started giving my ladies some high nitriogen nutes (very small dose) after about 4 1/2 weeks vegging because of yellowing leaves... Proud to say I just put them into flower 2 days ago, they are almost 4' tall and real bushy, they came back 100 %...
Your topping techniqe to get 4 mains worked great... Thank you...


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 21, 2011)

Glad it worked out and you finally realize that 90% of the advice regarding plant foods is wrong. Folks will sit there and watch their plants drop leaves and not have a clue why.

Good luck,
UB


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## Tonyhobo (Nov 21, 2011)

Helpful guide, thanks! And I know this is in the advanced section but there are some very baffling words there that alot of noobs would not understand like me I ended up finding video THIS guide for beginners hope it helps someone. Thanks again for the guide!


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## jesicalorren (Nov 21, 2011)

i wanted to say thanks for this thread, out of everything i read here this is the one that made the biggest diffence in the way i do things. ty


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## Warped1 (Nov 26, 2011)

I want to say thanks for the info as well UB. I had 5 sets of leaves and I was looking at my plants and asking myself if I really wanted to cut them in half lol. I made the leap and just like you said, I have the tops I want. It really makes a difference doing things the right way.


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## jesicalorren (Nov 27, 2011)

View attachment 1907959View attachment 1907960
thank UB


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## smoke n strum (Nov 29, 2011)

These plants were topped according to UB's method. 



sns


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## slider11111 (Nov 30, 2011)

Is there a simple picture of how to top for 4 main Colas? I have searched for hours and it is still unclear of the exact location a make this cut?


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## boneheadbob (Nov 30, 2011)

Dude there are tons of pics.
Close your eyes. Picture a plant from a side view. Its one inch tall and theres two tiny leaves. These are not nodes. They are called the cotyledon leaves. There are the first leaves to appear. After that two more leaves till pop out and start growing. Those are the first node. Two main leaves growing opposite each other just above the cotyledon leaves which may start to fall off. Then another node will appear a little above the first node. You know have two nodes with 4 sets of leaves and a little growth still pushing out from the top, so wait till you have 4 or 5 nodes, then go back and cut the whole plant off just above the second node

It does not get any cleared then that, You may open your eyes now 



slider11111 said:


> Is there a simple picture of how to top for 4 main Colas? I have searched for hours and it is still unclear of the exact location a make this cut?


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## smoke n strum (Nov 30, 2011)

slider11111 said:


> Is there a simple picture of how to top for 4 main Colas? I have searched for hours and it is still unclear of the exact location a make this cut?


Read this page. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get.html It's the first page of this thread. If that doesn't work, hit the red x up in the upper right hand corner.

sns


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## Warped1 (Nov 30, 2011)

Slider if you look at post #145 there are some pictures there. A couple of them should show you where you'll need to top

Here's a link that shows a great pic.
https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/353494-i-need-help-identifying-2nd.html


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## slider11111 (Nov 30, 2011)

OK thanx. Thats were I thought it was. I did it to this NL-BB. I have 2 mains and two secondary's? I don't know that I will get 4 tops?


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## BigBudzzzz (Dec 1, 2011)

bigbudzzzz said:


> topped twice and this is what i got.
> 
> View attachment 1880444


look at her now, wow!!!


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## Warped1 (Dec 1, 2011)

Your 2 secondaries will be tops as well


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## slider11111 (Dec 1, 2011)

I hope so but they are so short I don't think they will catch up with the other two?


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## Warped1 (Dec 1, 2011)

I have a couple like that. I don't think they'll be as tall as the mains, but they should still be ok. I have one though that all of the tops are the same height.


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## Wrecks (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm a big fan of topping. No matter how it's done, you learn as you go, and get ideas for next time. This plant was topped 3 times. 
Chocolope / 9 weeks from dry seed / 3.5 weeks into flower


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## slider11111 (Dec 4, 2011)

I topped the Mains today. Now they will catch up!!!


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## Warped1 (Dec 6, 2011)

How are things looking slider?


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## slider11111 (Dec 9, 2011)

warped1 said:


> how are things looking slider?


awesome!!!


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## Wrecks (Dec 10, 2011)

Looking good dudes! I think the sacrifice in time is well worth having more buds up there in the light. I posted a pic before where I said it was 3 1/2 weeks in. I actually screwed up, and now it is actually 3 1/2 weeks. (went into flower on Nov. 16) 

This is after a bit of a haircut. All 8 are mains; no side branches.


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## Warped1 (Dec 10, 2011)

Nice Chocolope Wrecks.. how tall is that lady?


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## rathou (Dec 13, 2011)

*

cotyledons ? - the first leaves formed or? 
​
​
*


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## Warped1 (Dec 13, 2011)

Yep they're the first leaves..generally they are rounded.


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 15, 2011)

This thread is awesome, this is exactly what I have been planning to do with the females that show in my 10 kali mist seedlings. I thought training them was going to be hard but now its looking like it will be easy, assuming I dont kill them before they make it to node 5 or 6, this is my first grow so no garantees I wont totally fck this up

will be posting pics starting when I top them


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## nursehead (Dec 17, 2011)

This is great info


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## lbezphil2005 (Dec 19, 2011)

rathou said:


> *
> 
> cotyledons ? - the first leaves formed or?
> ​
> ...


The cote leaves, the small round tipped leafs that first appear when the plant germinates, are not the first set of "true leafs", those are next, the first set of single leafs that form right after the cote set. Then the second set is usually 3 leaf sets, with 3 tips on each leaf, then you might get one more set of 3 or it might go to 5 leafs, or 5 tips on each leaf - at any rate, you've got the cote' leafs, then the single leaf set or first true set of leafs, then triple leaf set or second true set of leafs. Okay? Work your way up from there, right now your at node 2 and working on node 3, lol!


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## Keith Stone (Dec 21, 2011)

Holy SATIVAS of info mashun over load. I just got to the LINK O RAMA post back down there about post #100. 

HINT on speed reading the forum threads for the BEN-isms==scroll past everything else. 

There's sooo much 'peat and repeat, if you scroll past all the pics of shriveled and twisted leaves and the inquiries of those who haven't taken the time to read two pages, THEN you can get through 1,000 posts in a week or so and learn a little something whilst you are doing such PLUS you might find your answer without polluting the thread with another repeat repeat repeat inquiry. This homie is doing his homie-work.

I figger that if I advance to the level where I'm producing great healthy root systems and bushy trees from bagseed, THEN i might consider some "store bought" seed. I'm amazed by the folks who post up "first grow" and they've spent a fortune on all the goodie goodies but then their _super double whammo hubba bubba white funkadelic _plant(s) look more like Charlie B's Christmas tree than the plump and sassy bitch it should be.

Just venting a little after another few hours trying to catch up and weed through the information. Yes be very careful reading my posts as i do pun.

Thanks again to UB and other _no bullshit_ growers who take the time to help others understand the process. Thanks to RIU for not siding with those who would align themselves against simple and straightforward growing.

I'm going to have the best fucking tomatoes EVER this year__no__ doubt. 

puff puff.


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 21, 2011)

theres no node at the coytledons, if you cut just above them your going to have a nice green chopstick to harvest. bahahaaha


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 21, 2011)

1oldgoat said:


> UB.While reading about gardening myths, I stumbled upon some research on how to make a plant shorter and still retain proper flower size. Have a read and let us know if you've heard about this.
> 
> *Pickling your Paperwhites - Using Alcohol to Reduce Growth of Paperwhite Narcissus*​William B. Miller
> Professor of Horticulture
> ...



facsinating! I need to keep my plant height around 4 feet with the space I have and Im growing a sativa dominant so Im a litte conerned of what is going to happen. Not sure I want to kill my plant trying this but, if anyone can vouch for it I might give it a go. Unfortunately I dont think paperwhites make a good analog to cannabis, but the principal is the same, might just have to use lower doses(Id be willing to try 1% using vodka) Also you might get a bit of carb boost from the alcohol.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 22, 2011)

I've seen that but wouldn't bother with it. Study used a bulbing monocot. I wonder what hormonal affect the alcohol has?


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## trailerparkboy (Dec 22, 2011)

ive had 2 "failed" topping atempt getting only 2 not 4 main colas. In this pic above the red is 3 nodes and below is a node with single point leaves and then the cotyleons right below that> So just above the 2nd true node would be 2 above the red right???

Thanks for ur help


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## Warped1 (Dec 22, 2011)

It looks like you need to go up 1 more node from the red dot. If you top where the red dot is you'll have 2 tops


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## trailerparkboy (Dec 22, 2011)

ok that is what i thought i had been doing wrong thanks man


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 23, 2011)

can you top a plant at that age?

Uncle Ben is recommending to wait until the 6th node, but is that reallly neccarry? I definately dont see 6 nodes on that plant

does anyone know how the harvest off of a single plant having been topped to 4 colas, would comare to a plant topped to 2 colas and trained into a CCOB such as Hobbes' does with his plants? ...I guess I shoudl find the link... here it ishttps://www.rollitup.org/smoke-reports/244210-kali-mist-serious-seeds-3.html


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## beans davis (Dec 23, 2011)

Uncle Bens topping for 4 mains worked great for me.


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## Warped1 (Dec 25, 2011)

Thedillestpickle said:


> can you top a plant at that age?
> 
> Uncle Ben is recommending to wait until the 6th node, but is that reallly neccarry? I definately dont see 6 nodes on that plant
> 
> does anyone know how the harvest off of a single plant having been topped to 4 colas, would comare to a plant topped to 2 colas and trained into a CCOB such as Hobbes' does with his plants? ...I guess I shoudl find the link... here it ishttps://www.rollitup.org/smoke-reports/244210-kali-mist-serious-seeds-3.html


 Well I kinda think it's a good idea to wait. Having some decent roots before topping certainly can't hurt and that's why it's recommended. Now to check out that link, thanks


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## Warped1 (Dec 25, 2011)

TDP here's what I think about the CCOB method, or LST.. whatever you want to call it. It's probably what I should be doing considering I use cfl's..either that or a scrog. I think I would yield more by keeping a nice ,full and level canopy. These cfl's don't have the penetration that an hps or mh has. So yeah I think in some cases it would yield more, but I just had to try UB's method and I really like it. It's definitely a method I'll use again


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 25, 2011)

Yea I think its good, I havent used it yet, its my first grow and seedlings arent ready to be topped yet. I want to flower all my seedlings but I want to keep my phenos in case I have something really nice(which I think I do) and so I plan to clone the tops that I remove. at harvest I will know which clone is the keeper and Ill have myself a mother plant to start a perpetual harvest with. Hopefully I can clone with success


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## Warped1 (Dec 29, 2011)

I hope your cloning endeavors are a success as well


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 29, 2011)

Warped1 said:


> I hope your cloning endeavors are a success as well


lol I kinda fucked it up... I topped them all and everything was clean and I think I did a good job but... I didnt keep track of which top came from which plant... so now Im not going to know which one was the mother of which clone... ahhhhh 

but I do have a plan B. I topped above the second node, when the two top branches get bigger im going to rechop the plant down to the first node and itll have 2 colas, then I can clone those two branches, Ill just flower my first batch of clones and use the second batch to keep track of which mothers are good. I cant believe I made that stupid mistake! 

Im going to have one wicked root system, after I top the plants again above the second node im going to let the two branches grow out until they are at 5 nodes and then top them back down to the first node. Ill end up with 4 colas hopefully, just a bit of a variation on Uncle Bens technique. Obviously this means that vegg time is going to be substantial=massive root system going into veg. It also means my plants will be more mature going into flower which can only be a good thing. 

that all sounds pretty confusing as I read through it, Itll all make alot more sense in 2 weeks when the process of topping and topping and topping again is complete, Ill post up some pictures once its all done.


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## Jar Man (Dec 30, 2011)

I still believe that unless there are issues about plant count maximums to consider, there's simply now way to get larger and more potent yields faster with less duffy buds per sq. meter than SOG. Much time is lost when plants are topped at all, being it takes a week or more for them to recover speedy growth while hormones switch focus to secondary branches. The main top cola is always the most potent and heaviest yielder. So it's almost a no-brainer to figure out mass quantities of these single stalk spears crowded relatively close like branches in a SOG is the only way to fly to get a more consistent highly potent yield in the quickest time frame possible.


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 30, 2011)

I agree, thats why when you go on youtube, alot of the most impressive grows. ones that are done for big money in big rooms by guys that clearly have alot of experience, you mostly see SOG method. Its quick its simple and it works, and if your doing something on a bigger scale, keeping it simple is a huge benefit. If you were to do a scrog on a large scale the amount of time you would have to spend with all those plants would make it inefficient. But this thread/forum is geared more towards small growers who want to play around with their plant and often have limits on their number of plants.

What Im doing with my plants is likely to be something I wont do very often because as I get myself more setup Im thinking I will be able to do a SOG. But to start off I have no mother, only 10 seedlngs so my first grow will be with larger plants, and when they are finished I will have a mother to do SOG for future grows. 


Jar Man said:


> I still believe that unless there are issues about plant count maximums to consider, there's simply now way to get larger and more potent yields faster with less duffy buds per sq. meter than SOG. Much time is lost when plants are topped at all, being it takes a week or more for them to recover speedy growth while hormones switch focus to secondary branches. The main top cola is always the most potent and heaviest yielder. So it's almost a no-brainer to figure out mass quantities of these single stalk spears crowded relatively close like branches in a SOG is the only way to fly to get a more consistent highly potent yield in the quickest time frame possible.


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## Jar Man (Dec 30, 2011)

True, most on here have plant count concerns. But if you really think about it, otherwise smaller scale growers would find it even more advantageous to try and get as much as possible out of as small a space as possible, as quickly as possible. The smaller, the more the idea becomes significant. I started out in the mid '90's running a perpetual micro-grow out of converted bedroom furniture. A tall narrow free standing closet piece was for mamma, a small roughwood nondescript cab. at the foot of the bed was for clones, and 2 modified chest of drawers with false drawer fronts mounted to a full face piece of finish plywood stained to match were the 150 w HPS rotating bloom units. 6 SOG clones popped off 7-8 oz. every month just before each full moon. Several small ion generators and a large Honeywell unit kept odors in check. And though many friends came over to score a sack from time to time, none were the wiser.


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## Jar Man (Dec 30, 2011)

After all these years, I made the same mistake you did about a year ago when I knew better after starting off some NL#5 and Hindu Kush from seed. Forgot to label which plants were which with clones of each female in the batch. So had to regroup with another set of clones like you did. "D-OH!"


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 30, 2011)

Jar Man said:


> After all these years, I made the same mistake you did about a year ago when I knew better after starting off some NL#5 and Hindu Kush from seed. Forgot to label which plants were which with clones of each female in the batch. So had to regroup with another set of clones like you did. "D-OH!"


Yea thanksfully it was already in the plan to do a second cloning. I like what ive got going, It means Ill still have the mother of the best of the 10 plants when harvest comes, and then throw away the other 9 mothers and Ive got myself a good plant to work from to start up a SOG. Thankfully I have a bit more space and I dont have to do such stealth techniques... but no one is ever allowed in the basement...


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## BigAzzBudzz (Dec 31, 2011)

Sub'd


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## Thedillestpickle (Jan 2, 2012)

Im having some unexpected results from my topping. What I had hoped was to get 4 equal sized colas on my plant for an even canopy. I topped above the second node, leaving 4 shoots on the plants. The top two shoots coming from the second node have taken off with alot of growth but the bottom two are lagging and I don't expect I will be getting the even canopy with 4 colas I had been expecting. Heres so pictures of the plants to show how they are growing. I guess I can trim off the bottom shoots since they wont amount to much judging by how little they are staying, and then I can top the bigger shoots above the first node to get my 4 colas. Is there any harm in repeatedly cutting so much material off my plants? Could I over stress them if I do this again too soon? Does anyone have a suggestion as to why Im not getting the 4 colas despite following Uncle Ben's method?


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## sixstring2112 (Jan 2, 2012)

it looks like you went one node too low and topped for 2 colas to me.those bottom branches look like they were forced out after the topping.#2 is about the cut,to me it looks like you got a bit too close to the node you cut above.next time just give it a 1/4" more stub.you'll be surprised how fast those lower branches take off and try to catch up and you might still get your 4 main colas.i would let em go a week or 2 and top again somewhere on the upper branches to get6 or 8 colas but i like em short n fat great pics by the way and the plants look good.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 2, 2012)

Thedillestpickle said:


> Im having some unexpected results from my topping. What I had hoped was to get 4 equal sized colas on my plant for an even canopy. I topped above the second node, leaving 4 shoots on the plants. The top two shoots coming from the second node have taken off with alot of growth but the bottom two are lagging and I don't expect I will be getting the even canopy with 4 colas I had been expecting. Heres so pictures of the plants to show how they are growing. I guess I can trim off the bottom shoots since they wont amount to much judging by how little they are staying, and then I can top the bigger shoots above the first node to get my 4 colas. Is there any harm in repeatedly cutting so much material off my plants? Could I over stress them if I do this again too soon? Does anyone have a suggestion as to why Im not getting the 4 colas despite following Uncle Ben's method?
> 
> View attachment 1969646View attachment 1969647View attachment 1969649View attachment 1969650View attachment 1969651View attachment 1969652View attachment 1969653


Recommend you grow the plant out before passing judgement.


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## Thedillestpickle (Jan 2, 2012)

Ill let them grow out some more, they are older now than in those pictures and the effect is more pronounced but ill see what happends.


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## Warped1 (Jan 3, 2012)

It looks like you did it right to me pickle


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## beans davis (Jan 3, 2012)

I am growing 5 hashplants 1 jack33 & 1 critical33.I read on another thread that this topping method didn't work very well with indicas so i topped 1 hp & the jack & critical for 4 colas.I'm day 8 12/12 and UBs method worked great on all the plants.I don't think you can get much more indica than hashplant so the post about not working on indicas is total bullshit!
I find about 80% of the stuff i read on forums needs to be taken with a grain of salt and researched.
Thanks U.B., you da man!!!


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## Warped1 (Jan 3, 2012)

That's a new one for me too beans.. mine are indicas and they're doing just fine. You're right about a lot of the things you see on the forums..finding out for yourself is never a bad thing, then you'll know.


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## jasona (Jan 7, 2012)

beans davis said:


> I don't think you can get much more indica than hashplant so the post about not working on indicas is total bullshit!
> I find about 80% of the stuff i read on forums needs to be taken with a grain of salt and researched.


All of these techniques have existed in horticulture for decades; you can start with stem girdling and decapitation and that will pretty much cover every FIM/UB/SUPERCROP variation that people are rediscovering on the internet. If somebody claims that a method doesn't work on a certain strain it will more than likely be a result of operator error...


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## Thedillestpickle (Jan 8, 2012)

Hello Uncle Ben I have a simple questions for you. With this technique being used can I expect the same amount of stretch from the plant? would a 4 cola plant put in flower end up the same height as a 1 cola plant if they were both the same height before 12/12? 
I'm guessing the 4 cola plant will stretch less as its energy is divided between 4 tops, but I'm sure you have first hand experience with this. 

Thank you


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## tomat0 (Jan 8, 2012)

4,000+ posts on a simple topping technique.
KISS. It really isn't that difficult.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 8, 2012)

Thedillestpickle said:


> Hello Uncle Ben I have a simple questions for you. With this technique being used can I expect the same amount of stretch from the plant? would a 4 cola plant put in flower end up the same height as a 1 cola plant if they were both the same height before 12/12?
> I'm guessing the 4 cola plant will stretch less as its energy is divided between 4 tops, but I'm sure you have first hand experience with this.
> 
> Thank you


 Botanically speaking, you should have a shorter more bushy plant. How much is debatable as I've never run a control group.


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## Warped1 (Jan 8, 2012)

tomat0 said:


> 4,000+ posts on a simple topping technique.
> KISS. It really isn't that difficult.


I don't know about you, but I didn't read through 4000 posts, and I don't think most folks will. Yeah if you read through the first few pages it should be clear, but not everyone is like that..no disrespect meant. Some people think they have different situations or whatever, new members, new growers being unsure. I guess I just cut people some slack, it's not always that tough to answer a question. Maybe I'm part of the problem?


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## tomat0 (Jan 9, 2012)

Warped1 said:


> I don't know about you, but I didn't read through 4000 posts, and I don't think most folks will. Yeah if you read through the first few pages it should be clear, but not everyone is like that..no disrespect meant. Some people think they have different situations or whatever, new members, new growers being unsure. I guess I just cut people some slack, it's not always that tough to answer a question. Maybe I'm part of the problem?


No offense intended or taken.  I'm just saying UB's post is pretty straightforward.


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## Warped1 (Jan 9, 2012)

No worries tomat0 you didn't upset anyone I don't think. I agree the info is all there in the first couple of pages, but for some people here English is a second or even third language.  Happy growing.


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## zizou21 (Jan 11, 2012)

Uncle Ben I got a question. I topped for 4 colas, but I got some really bushy white widow and I'm afraid it's not receiving enough light even if I tuck fan leaves. Last plant I had, what I did was use rope to tie the colas to the side to expose more light in the middle, but what that ended up doing is it created 8-9 colas everywhere, and the yield was pretty small yield (2oz i think). Are there other techniques I can use to make the best use of my plant? Lollipopping or LST?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 12, 2012)

zizou21 said:


> Uncle Ben I got a question. I topped for 4 colas, but I got some really bushy white widow and I'm afraid it's not receiving enough light even if I tuck fan leaves. Last plant I had, what I did was use rope to tie the colas to the side to expose more light in the middle, but what that ended up doing is it created 8-9 colas everywhere, and the yield was pretty small yield (2oz i think). Are there other techniques I can use to make the best use of my plant? Lollipopping or LST?


Get more light.

You topped at the wrong place.

Every time you shade or remove leaves you reduce plant mass.

Read a couple of books on plant culture and stay off these boards. Learn some botany.

Good luck,
UB


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## ataxia (Jan 12, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Get more light.
> 
> You topped at the wrong place.
> 
> ...


Why do you say he topped in the wrong place??


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 12, 2012)

ataxia said:


> Why do you say he topped in the wrong place??


Caused he got 8-9 colas.


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## Harrekin (Jan 12, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Caused he got 8-9 colas.


He said he tied the tops down, he moved atipical dominance (speaking your language  )


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 13, 2012)

Harrekin said:


> He said he tied the tops down, he moved atipical dominance (speaking your language  )


Missed that. Yep, if you tie the plant down, then you can expect different results.


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## sixstring2112 (Jan 13, 2012)

science!!!!


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## Sunbiz1 (Jan 13, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Botanically speaking, you should have a shorter more bushy plant. How much is debatable as I've never run a control group.


My problem is the opposite with herijuana right now, stuff is genetically designed to grow sideways...therefore I do not recommend topping this strain.


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## Warped1 (Jan 13, 2012)

So Herijuana doesn't grow towards light...that's interesting. You're kidding, right?


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## cary schellie (Jan 13, 2012)

i dont think he's KISS, I think he's alice cooper lol IDK maybe not


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## Thedillestpickle (Jan 14, 2012)

cary schellie said:


> i dont think he's KISS, I think he's alice cooper lol IDK maybe not



lol that was random, maybe I missed what your responding to lol I agree its alice cooper 

You LST'd your plant, that's why you got 9 colas

herijuana grows sideways? what does that mean? show some pictures


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## Warped1 (Jan 17, 2012)

Ha ha.. I can't be the new buzz around here..damn that's sad lol


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## cary schellie (Jan 19, 2012)

i did a side by side experiment with strawberry cough. I took one plant and did the lst and another with uncle bens 4 cola topping method. The plant with 4 colas yielded way more. The 4 colas were twice as big as any of the tops coming from the lst.

The only problem I have is I want to start topping clones for 4 main colas but usually they nodes dont alternate untill the plants get bigger. Can I just count 4 shoots from the bottom and snip.


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## Harrekin (Jan 21, 2012)

cary schellie said:


> i did a side by side experiment with strawberry cough. I took one plant and did the lst and another with uncle bens 4 cola topping method. The plant with 4 colas yielded way more. The 4 colas were twice as big as any of the tops coming from the lst.
> 
> The only problem I have is I want to start topping clones for 4 main colas but usually they nodes dont alternate untill the plants get bigger. Can I just count 4 shoots from the bottom and snip.
> 
> View attachment 2006886


Nope sorry, of they're alternating nodes the topmost branch takes over as lead. FIM is an option for alternating noded clones to.


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## smokey mcsmokester (Jan 21, 2012)

Hey UB, Just wanted to drop a line and let you know how my grow is going.. I've taken your advice and laid off the "snake oils" and am almost ready to harvest my most successful grow yet. I have 4 females I vegged for 5 weeks in 5 gallon pots and I used you topping teqnique, It's looking like Im going to pull 3/4 to 1 lb off of these 4 beauties... Thanks again for the stern advice UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 21, 2012)

smokey mcsmokester said:


> Hey UB, Just wanted to drop a line and let you know how my grow is going.. I've taken your advice and laid off the "snake oils" and am almost ready to harvest my most successful grow yet. I have 4 females I vegged for 5 weeks in 5 gallon pots and I used you topping teqnique, It's looking like Im going to pull 3/4 to 1 lb off of these 4 beauties... Thanks again for the stern advice UB


Nice!

Happy harvest,
UB


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## jeffdamann (Jan 22, 2012)

Uncle Ben, What can be done with an alternating clone? I have tried many times and it always creates 4 shoots, but each in a progressively weaker order from top to bottom.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 23, 2012)

jeffdamann said:


> Uncle Ben, What can be done with an alternating clone? I have tried many times and it always creates 4 shoots, but each in a progressively weaker order from top to bottom.


Grow it out the best you can and don't worry about it.


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## Thedillestpickle (Jan 23, 2012)

jeffdamann said:


> Uncle Ben, What can be done with an alternating clone? I have tried many times and it always creates 4 shoots, but each in a progressively weaker order from top to bottom.


Perhaps you could tie the top shoots down temporarily so that they are lower than the bottom shoots. that should help bring some of the growth into the lower shoots. once they are all roughly about the same size you could probably untie them and let them grow. I'm just guessing, dont really know what that would do.


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## Danielsgb (Jan 25, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Grow it out the best you can and don't worry about it.


I haven't stopped by this thread in forever. Have you answered, what a true leaf is lately?
I'm going for the 2 main colas on the Black Rose I just started.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 26, 2012)

Danielsgb said:


> I haven't stopped by this thread in forever. Have you answered, what a true leaf is lately?
> I'm going for the 2 main colas on the Black Rose I just started.


Not lately, and aint gonna start either.


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## stonestare (Jan 26, 2012)

Wow so much info that this is bookmarked and wrote down so I can use this for further referance. Yes I read the entire thread and keep up the good work


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## beans davis (Jan 28, 2012)

UB I topped a few plants this grow for 4 colas their 6wks boom. I never topped or trimmed my plants ,grew natural.
These hash plants i topped are bad to the bone,the colas on the ones i topped are just as big as the 1s i did'nt.
Theyre just as tall too.
I love this method.
My next grow i'm doin all of em.8 afghani X skunk bet i get more yield.
6wks into bloom and not 1 yellow leaf on any plant.

Thanks man


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 28, 2012)

beans davis said:


> UB I topped a few plants this grow for 4 colas their 6wks boom. I never topped or trimmed my plants ,grew natural.
> These hash plants i topped are bad to the bone,the colas on the ones i topped are just as big as the 1s i did'nt.
> Theyre just as tall too.
> I love this method.
> ...


Glad it worked out for you. 

Not one yellow leaf? Way to go! You must not be using "cannabis specific" foods.


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## ThermalRider (Jan 28, 2012)

Very Informative thread UB...! Thanks for specifics.. 

What about topping MOTHER plants for four colas, advantages / disadvantages?

After taking clones from ole' Mom, can/would topping the CLONES after the 2 Node still apply?

Just sprouted 2 SLH, one of the helments did NOT want to come off. Attempted to pull of with tweezers and the whole top fell off to my horror..
Went on to work thinkng all day how i destroyed it..!! Whe i got home after work I check it and the straight sprout tip looked like it may have been a little light green which turned greener over the next24 hrs. It's behind in growth then the other seedlings but looks like it' going to survive my dumb ass decision to go in with the scapel/tweezers.. Lesson's learned.....


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## beans davis (Jan 28, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Glad it worked out for you.
> 
> Not one yellow leaf? Way to go! You must not be using "cannabis specific" foods.


Dyna-Gro my friend,still adding a little grow at 6wks bloom no boosters!
My plants told me to do this.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 28, 2012)

ThermalRider said:


> Very Informative thread UB...! Thanks for specifics..
> 
> What about topping MOTHER plants for four colas, advantages / disadvantages?
> 
> ...


Sorry about your luck. Plants don't need our help. They do fine on their own.


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## Danielsgb (Jan 28, 2012)

beans davis said:


> Dyna-Gro my friend,still adding a little grow at 6wks bloom no boosters!
> My plants told me to do this.


Good job listening to your plants, not using a schedule full of canna specific stuff.


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## pistolpanda (Jan 28, 2012)

Hi, Uncle Ben, I was wondering if this topping method would work with a stealthy "cab" grow implementing the ScroG technique? I'm sure that this has been asked before, and I apologize, as I've been slowly working my way through the thread (I love to read big threads like this, they're the most interesting ones :3) but unfortunately I haven't the time to read through all 415 pages at once. 

My plan was to go 16/8 for vegetative, using a mixed spectrum CFL grow, top it at the 2nd node to get the sites for the four main colas and have it all distributed amongst the ScroG screen. Then for flowering I would run a 12/12 light schedule with all 2700k bulbs. My light setup would be something like this.

LEGEND:
 @ = 6500k CFL
 # = 2700k CFL
 | = wiring

[email protected]##@..
...|......|..
[email protected]@

They are running off a power strip using plug to socket adaptors, with the two side bulbs running down via nifty little socket extensions. Would this work out well enough with the 4-cola topping technique described, or would I be better to use single spectrum for each respective phase? Also, would it be more beneficial for the light schedules between vegetative and flowering growth to be more drastic (i.e: 18/6 for veg and 12/12 for flower, or even 24/0 for veg) or is 16/8 fine? 

Thanks in advance, and great job on the thread +rep
-Panda


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 29, 2012)

The first page describes the plant process. I'll say again, where ever you cut will induce output in the nodal axis of the leaf petiole and sometimes below that one node. I don't see any problem with SCROG except the maintenance thingie. It's too much for this boy.


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## hegem0n (Feb 4, 2012)

Hi Uncle Ben!

I've been reading this forum in search of answers to my questions

Here they are (sorry if they've already been addressed):

What is your Veg/Flower schedule typically? 2 weeks from seed to seedling (cfl) then under HPS thereafter? Is that about the time you also see the 5-6th node and then do the topping? What height does that leave the girl? How long then do you veg then flip in order to achieve what usual height before harvesting? How much space/area does each plant take up after your technique is used? 

What size/type hydroponics system do you typically use? 5 gallon sites? Recirculating? Soil instead?

Thanks for your help!


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## Danielsgb (Feb 4, 2012)

hegem0n said:


> Hi Uncle Ben!
> 
> I've been reading this forum in search of answers to my questions
> 
> ...


I've followed UB for quite some time picking up knowledge. I know some of them.

I've never seen him answer hydro. ?'s. I know he uses soil for cannabis.
His spin out thread shows a crop he grew and you can see his vigor of the seedlings.
He often says 'Plan your garden, and grow out your plan'. 
He's mentioned using HPS all the way, and combinations of MH.
Hope this helps.
UB, hope I got part answered.

Here's some of his threads where your questions are answered in.


*Uncle Ben's Gardening Tweeks and Pointers*


*Plant Moisture Stress - Symptoms and Solutions*


*Spin-Out for Chemical Root Pruning*


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## wesmokedatkush (Feb 4, 2012)

Great thread with lots of info. Just had a question for a plant newbie:

What are nodes and what are cotyledons?


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## clobbersaurus (Feb 4, 2012)

Cotlyedons are the first leaves you see when you germ a seed; they are the ones with rounded ends that don't look like any others after them. Nodes are the junction points on the stem where the fan leaves and growing shoots grow out of.


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## Danielsgb (Feb 4, 2012)

wesmokedatkush said:


> Great thread with lots of info. Just had a question for a plant newbie:
> 
> What are nodes and what are cotyledons?


You can google 'cannabis node' or just look up cotyledons. Those are some real basic terms you can find yourself.


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## DonPowelleone (Feb 5, 2012)

this is my first ever post, let me start by saying thanks ub for all the help (like youve probably heard a million times already) but seriously, it is good to be able to read your advice knowing that it is usually factual backed by science and not just aload of misguiding oppinion. for that i am grateful as i am for anyone that takes the time out to help others when they dont have to do so.... 

right, i just wanted to put my two pennies worth in just as there was a few things as i was reading thru this thread that confused me alot and i saw you in a way contradict yourself a few times (or at least thats how it seemed to me anyway) and no one seemed to point it out to you for you to answer them so iv had to do it.

now, i know that you are gonna probably rip me to shreads about this (if u are even bothered to reply at all lol as i can see how frustrating it must have been for you to try repeat yourself and re explain things a thousand times) but there was just one thing i could never work out with all this true node shit.

right basically what confused me was this, you say cut above the second true node to get 4 colas. then wen people asked you about the true nodes you said the first true node is the one above the cotyledons as you dont class that as a true node. but thats where am like HUH? cos as far as im aware there isnt even a node at that point, there are the cotyledons then a single blade leaf then a node but no node from the cotyledons? so if the node from the single blade leaf IS the true node, then isnt that the first node anyway :S (and to make it even worse there is then shit loads of people chiming in with various other different oppinions which made me question myself even more and made it more complicated lol)

so thats my first point anyway and if you wish to explain in more detail about the cotyledons id be so grateful as to me its - cotyledons then no node (UNLESS YOU ARE JUST MEANING A NODE IS JUST A MEETING POINT OF A LEAF TO THE STEM? AS I AM MEANING A NODE IS A POINT AT WHERE A BRANCH GROWS AND ONE DOESNT GROW FROM THE COTYLEDON) then single leaf then node then 3 finger leaf then node etc. so if the one above the cotyledons is the first true node then realisticly its just the 'first' node anyway so putting 'true' before it just makes it confusing as hell as it makes me think well the first true node cant be just the first node lol (if this makes any sense haha)

right, then.... after i see you explain to someone its the one above the cotyledons, u then upload a picture of your own plant demonstrating your own method and youve topped it above like the 6th node and trimmed everything off below the 5th, so then am like HUH?! just when i thought i was understanding you, you then contradict yourself, i was like, why is he teling everyone to do it this way then go and do it a totally different way himself. so then studying your picture i notice the bottom fan leaf you had left on your plant had seven fingers which makes it a fully formed fan leaf which usually appears around the 4th or 5th node, so then that got me thinking, right, he must mean the first true node comes from the first fully formed fan leaf, but then that cant be right cos u jus explained to someone its the one above the cotyledons but tha certainly aint what ud done on that specific example. :S :S :S

So they are just a few things id realllllly like you to clarify for me please. and just incase u think im lazy and havnt tried researching to find out my self, iv spent the past two days trying my hardest to get a solid 100% answer to this without any doubts left in my head but it jus aint happenin i need to hear it from the man himself  the last thing i wanted to do was post myself because now i no im probably gonna get ripped to shreads by you haha. but yeh, at least i think my points are appropriate to ask, and i read through over 50% of this thread including searching the thread for key words but like i said, no luck on a definate and also didnt see anyone point out ur contradicting example ;D

there might even be things iv missed but for now that will clear things up for me 

thanks ub.... (go easy on me  ha)


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## mick3025 (Feb 5, 2012)

Hi UB!

Searched and searched with no luck, so thought I would try you. I topped per your technique 2 weeks ago. Plant is 5 weeks from seed. I've had incredible growth, but it is all staying very low, i.e. the main branches are staying horizontal and not starting to turn up. Basically, I have a massive 5" tall bush that is around 14" wide. Everything looks healthy, albeit a groundcover at this stage. Have you seen/heard of this before? Wondering if there are any nutrients I should add to encourage more stem growth.

I did the same techinique to another strain at the same time. That plant immediately shot out a ton of growth, but all of the leaves are very small, probably 1/4 of the size of the untopped plants. I think I had some nute burn on that one so I flushed it. Again, my observation is topping encourages massive folier growth with limited stem growth. 

Wondering if it has something to do with how old the plants were when topped, i.e. the % of leaves removed by topping as well as the size of the root ball. 
In a 50/50 mix of HF and FFOF, HO T5 fixtures around 12" above the plant. 

Time will tell, just thought I'd see if you or anyone has seen/experienced this before. 

Thanks again for this forum, major help!


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 7, 2012)

There are nor have there ever been any contradictory posts in opposition to what I wrote on the first page, at least not by me. If you're confused, it's not my problem.

The horizontal branching will turn up.

UB


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## DonPowelleone (Feb 7, 2012)

I never said it was your problem... i didnt mean any offence by it... let me explain what i mean.



Uncle Ben said:


> Some eye candy fer ya'll on one of my crosses grown outdoors - *Positronics Haze X Sensi Skunk* ~
> 
> *Seedling in germ cup topped to get 4 main colas. Notice how leggie it is:*
> 
> ...


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## sso (Feb 7, 2012)

ive always just cut off the top as soon as the plant reaches the 3rd node, keeps the plant lot more compact, though admittedly it works best with pure sativas (only did one 2 indicas and both got rather bushy, too bushy for my liking) works great for the pure sativas though (lol, which very few keep though )

i see you mention waiting till the plant is bigger, because of stress? i did not notice any stress the times i did this, any comments?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 8, 2012)

DonPowelleone said:


> I never said it was your problem... i didnt mean any offence by it... let me explain what i mean.





Uncle Ben said:


> Some eye candy fer ya'll on one of my crosses grown outdoors - *Positronics Haze X Sensi Skunk* ~
> 
> *Seedling in germ cup topped to get 4 main colas. Notice how leggie it is:*
> 
> ...


There are two levels of two opposing leafsets, nodes, in that shot. There are no contradictions when it comes to hormonal responses, it is what it is. FWIW, that plant was buried up to the first leafsets and produced 4 main colas. It's *fool*proof.

For a better thread on the subject which includes a revised FAQ, try here - http://riddlem3.com/index.php/topic,1106.0.html The 2nd photo in that thread shows the attached cotyledons too. It's a side shot. Also shows the outward growth characteristic the other member was concerned about.

Don't try to make this out harder than it is. It's so simple even a cave man can do it. 

Having said that, are you here to argue using rhetorical "gotcha" questions or you growing a garden and having topping issues?

UB


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## DonPowelleone (Feb 8, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> There are two levels of two opposing leafsets, nodes, in that shot. There are no contradictions when it comes to hormonal responses, it is what it is. FWIW, that plant was buried up to the first leafsets and produced 4 main colas. It's *fool*proof.
> 
> For a better thread on the subject which includes a revised FAQ, try here - http://riddlem3.com/index.php/topic,1106.0.html The 2nd photo in that thread shows the attached cotyledons too. It's a side shot. Also shows the outward growth characteristic the other member was concerned about.
> 
> ...


yes i can see you have topped to get 4 colas in the shot, but my point was it wasnt done at the second node. i was just under the impression from this thread that it was very important to do it at that exact point otherwise you wouldnt end up with 4 COLAS, you would end up with just a 'bushy plant'.

I will check this link however it wont let me see it atm as i am not signed up.

haha this is the thing ub, i have been topping ever since my second grow, but at that time i didnt realise there was a certain time to do it, i have always done it roughly around the 5th or 6th node but would vary from time to time and i have always ended up with numerous tops and an overall way more bushy plant and it has always increased my yield significantly, however i cant say i have ever got it to the point of producing 4 massive main colas like in your pictures where they clearly dominate all the other branches. This is why i was so picky and detailed in my point to you about where exactly to top incase this was a very important part.

Of course not, i have better things to do with my time than to pick silly arguments with people over the internet, i thought my point was valid enough to fire over to you, as i say there was no offence intended im just trying to understand your method fully without any doubt left in my mind. i.e IS IT SO IMPORTANT THAT YOU HAVE TO DO IT ON EXACTLY THE SECOND NODE? a simple yes or no answer to that is all im lookin for from YOU rather than someone else lol (this was the thing that i became unsure about) and just to add, i agree with you that a somewhat simple technique has been made alot more complicated because of the amount of people that have debated the specifics with different oppinions on this thread that have made it very confusing (which they will not have intended to do of course, they will have just been trying to help out) You clearly no your shit and i personally have learnt a thing or two from reading your threads, as i said in my first post i appreciate that....


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## DonPowelleone (Feb 8, 2012)

PS just checked the riddle link you gave me -



> "Q - Can I cut above the 3rd or 4th node?
> 
> A - You can, but you won't get the same effect regarding bulked up main colas. I came up with this simple technique in order to increase _main_ cola production from 1..... to 2 or 4. If you want alot of bud sites and a bushier plant, then top at say.....the 8th node, but, that's not my technique as described."





This is the reason i got so confused, from reading these instructions by you and then seeing your example i quoted above. I hope you can see now i was genuine with my query and not just trying to simply irritate you lol.


Thanks again UB...


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## Danielsgb (Feb 8, 2012)

DonPowelleone said:


> PS just checked the riddle link you gave me -
> 
> 
> [/FONT][/COLOR]This is the reason i got so confused, from reading these instructions by you and then seeing your example i quoted above. I hope you can see now i was genuine with my query and not just trying to simply irritate you lol.
> ...


One point to make as you research it. The horizontal branch UB refers to is also called a Lateral Meristem. The point where you cut is referred to as the Apical Meristem. Wherever you cut the apical meristem the hormonal response causes the lateral meristems to attempt to be the top. 
Hope that helps and doesn't cause more confusion. His post on the other site is even better.


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## tomahawker (Feb 9, 2012)

Would the same uncle ben 4 cola topping technique apply if I am only veg'ing for 3 weeks and flowering for 9 weeks? If I top them above the second node when they reach 6 nodes total, I am concerned the plant won't grow tall enough if it is flipped over to 12 hour cycles less than a week after topping.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 9, 2012)

DonPowelleone said:


> yes i can see you have topped to get 4 colas in the shot, but my point was it wasnt done at the second node.


Doesn't matter as long as you know what you're doing and understand hormonal responses. I explained what I did in a previous post to get the outcome I was seeking but you either ignored what I wrote of it went right over your head. I'll try this again and talk real slooooooooooooooooooow.

1. There are 2 opposing leafsets left on the image you used. Check ~

2. The seedling is gonna be buried up to the first node, the lower leafsets, that will remain above ground. Check ~

3. The hormonal responses will be such that foliar output will occur in the axis of where the leaf petioles are attached to the "trunk", at the two nodes above ground. Check ~

Got it? It's all about hormonal responses which I've tried to get thru to you guys in a hundred posts. 

Uncle Ben


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## beans davis (Feb 9, 2012)

Lot of bullshit for something so easy.
This tech. works great with sativas or indicas i tried on both hash plants & a jack h. cross.
On 2 of the hash plants the 1st node was very tiny so i trimmed the 1st node off w a razor blade and topped above what would have been the 3rd node now the 2nd.
UBs pic looks like he trimmed off a couple or 3 nodes then topped above the 2nd node left on the seedling.

The plants i topped are just as tall as the 1s i didn't and they have 4 beautiful main colas.
I will do this to all my plants from now on.Next time i'll try 1 w 2 mains to compare results.

Simple easy and effective.
I got it easy.Hormonal response is simple,there are many places on the web to read about this.
Thanks U.B. you da man!


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## Harrekin (Feb 9, 2012)

How do people not get this yet? F**k me like...


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## DonPowelleone (Feb 9, 2012)

LOL. i have obv jus looked far too deep into it and took the littlest remarks too seriously. as i say i have always topped my plants where i have topped around the 5th or 6th node left 4 branches and cut off all the lower branches similar to what u had done in your pic..

But when i read - *Q - Can I cut above the 3rd or 4th node?

A - You can, but you won't get the same effect regarding bulked up main colas. I came up with this simple technique in order to increase main cola production from 1..... to 2 or 4. If you want alot of bud sites and a bushier plant, then top at say.....the 8th node, but, that's not my technique as described*

I took that as a straight NO, as in anything above the second node and it wont work, but if you would have described in more detail it would of said - "you can, as long as you trim the other branches off so there are only 4 left".... but yeah like i say i have just taken too many opinions on board about this and just let it confuse me way more than it ever should of done. haha i feel stupid now but at least i asked and got my answer - surely u can see why i got so confused tho with this whole thread (or if not at least pretend u can for my sake haha)

Thanks for the help anyway guys, after all this im back to using the technique as i always have done before even reading this thread - great progress! lol.


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## tomahawker (Feb 9, 2012)

UB - Thanks for all of the great info. Is it ok to top and then clean up all the bottom branches at the same time? I veg for 3 weeks and flower for 9 and have been under the impression that I should top the plants about 5 days before I flip to flower, and then clean up the bottom branches in the middle of week 2 of flower after they finish their initial growth spurt and are just starting to show little flowers sprouting. I was told that if you clean up the bottom stuff too early you may cause the plant to stretch too much and become leggy. Does this sound correct, or should I both top and clean up the bottom about 5 days before I flip to flowering.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 10, 2012)

tomahawker said:


> UB - Thanks for all of the great info. Is it ok to top and then clean up all the bottom branches at the same time? I veg for 3 weeks and flower for 9 and have been under the impression that I should top the plants about 5 days before I flip to flower, and then clean up the bottom branches in the middle of week 2 of flower after they finish their initial growth spurt and are just starting to show little flowers sprouting. I was told that if you clean up the bottom stuff too early you may cause the plant to stretch too much and become leggy. Does this sound correct, or should I both top and clean up the bottom about 5 days before I flip to flowering.


If you have yellowing non productive leafsets then cut them off no matter how you grow. 

Stretch has nothing to do with this. When someone feeds you bullshit, put them to task as to why, botanically speaking.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 10, 2012)

DonPowelleone said:


> I took that as a straight NO, as in anything above the second node and it wont work,.....


OK, and I still don't think you have your mind wrapped around the concepts of hormonal responses, which is what this thread is all about. Most of you can't see the forest for the trees. You're so damned concerned about bud production that you don't pay enough attention to what drives it. Like I've said a million times before, forget about buds and concentrate ONLY on the production and retention of root and leaf mass, until harvest.



> but if you would have described in more detail it would of said - "you can, as long as you trim the other branches off so there are only 4 left"....


Wrong, that's not all to it regarding your photo sample again dismissing plant processes and proper culture. If you have nodes that are exposed to light and air, they still have the potential to produce foliar output. If those nodes are buried, the output will be roots which will give the plant more yields due to more uptake of water and salts. Out of dozens of photos I've posted, you just happen to cherry pick one that can cause confusion and then neglected (or out of ignorance) the upcanning technique required to achieve what I wanted to achieve. 

Guys like you make something out of nothing by not understanding plant processes, instead going with the forum "he said she said" messages. Push the keyboard away, go to your local library, and check out some books on indoor plant culture and botany. 

Good luck,
UB


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## DonPowelleone (Feb 10, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> OK, and I still don't think you have your mind wrapped around the concepts of hormonal responses, which is what this thread is all about. Most of you can't see the forest for the trees. You're so damned concerned about bud production that you don't pay enough attention to what drives it. Like I've said a million times before, forget about buds and concentrate ONLY on the production and retention of root and leaf mass, until harvest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At the end of the day i was just trying to understand your technique to the fullest and yes i was mislead by some of the instructions and conflicting opinions. I didnt cherry pick anything out of ignorance i chose that example because that was the thing that confused me and that was the thing i wanted you to clear up for me. 

I understand what happens when u bury the trunk for roots, the thing is i just go so caught up in the second node rule i let that convince me it was a major part to get them exact results. Iv already explained why it had confused me so no need to go over that again, but all i needed was for u to clear it up for me which now u have, and, in the end im back to my original topping ways after learning that there is no actual magic in topping at precisely the "true second node". 

I could go to my library, but then what would be the point of this forum? U posted information to help people, i read it, lost my way at one point so asked u to help me out on what i was confused about... I thought thats how this thing worked :/ how can u expect everyone on this forum to 100% understand plant science and not have a question to ask? 

If u would of had a one on one conversation with me in real life and explained this to me, then i guarantee i would of understood u from the get go and there would of been no confusion, but cant u see how reading it on a forum with all the other bits of info and oppinions can make things cloudy?

Anyway, thanks for the help....


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## beans davis (Feb 10, 2012)

I didn't want to post on here that i had trimmed a node off and topped it b/c i knew some people trying to understand topping for 2 or 4 colas might get confused and ask UB all kinds of questions that have nothing to do with his topping method and this thread. 

When i saw UBs pic i knew exactly what he was doing.
Hell he even said "That plant was buried up to the 1st leaf sets".For ROOTS.
This is common practice with a lot of growers.

If you can't get this by reading this thread(418pgs) you need to do some google research on plants.I do.
Theres a lot of good pics with explainations in this thread if ya read it.

I like it when people nit pik and try to argue with UB about growing methods. 
It's a lot of fun to watch!

lol luv the lollipop thread ahaha


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## beans davis (Feb 10, 2012)

tomahawker said:


> UB - Thanks for all of the great info. Is it ok to top and then clean up all the bottom branches at the same time? I veg for 3 weeks and flower for 9 and have been under the impression that I should top the plants about 5 days before I flip to flower, and then clean up the bottom branches in the middle of week 2 of flower after they finish their initial growth spurt and are just starting to show little flowers sprouting. I was told that if you clean up the bottom stuff too early you may cause the plant to stretch too much and become leggy. Does this sound correct, or should I both top and clean up the bottom about 5 days before I flip to flowering.


I topped my plants above the 2nd node when my plants had 5 or 6 nodes ,just how the OP said.
There is no bottom to clean up.


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## mcledesma191 (Feb 11, 2012)

quick question, above my coyteledons my first set of leaves are just single blades. do i count that as a true node?


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## beans davis (Feb 11, 2012)

mcledesma191 said:


> quick question, above my coyteledons my first set of leaves are just single blades. do i count that as a true node?


yes.......!


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## baseball8008 (Feb 13, 2012)

Hi UB,

I have a few questions about this technique that I was hoping you would help me clarify. I am not sure if these questions have been addressed before on this thread but it is a long thread and although it was my intention to read it all 418 pages are a lot.

1. Does the plant need any vegetation period after it has been topped? 

2. Can I send the plants to flower immediately after topping?

3. If I was growing 12/12 from seed (something I am considering) by the time I have 5 or 6 nodes my plant will already be deep into flowering (right?), can I top under these particular conditions? 

4. what would be the hormonal response to topping when in flower?

I am planning to grow 8 plants in one gallon pots in a SOG method as my space is small and would like to get the maximum yield possible, therefore my plan to top to get 4 colas.

My growing space is 3 foot high x 3 foot wide x 17 inches depth.

Please let me know if you can help and thanks in advance.

BB.


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## Danielsgb (Feb 14, 2012)

baseball8008 said:


> Hi UB,
> 
> I have a few questions about this technique that I was hoping you would help me clarify. I am not sure if these questions have been addressed before on this thread but it is a long thread and although it was my intention to read it all 418 pages are a lot.
> 
> ...


The answers are in here, most of them a dozen times.
1. a week, or more IMO. 2. see 1. 3. you could I guess, but I never grow 12/12 from seed. 4. Same hormonal response
8 plants in a 3'x17" sound full to me. They spread wider by his method, but a bit shorter. I'd be doing 2 or 3.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2012)

baseball8008 said:


> Hi UB,
> 
> I have a few questions about this technique that I was hoping you would help me clarify. I am not sure if these questions have been addressed before on this thread but it is a long thread and although it was my intention to read it all 418 pages are a lot.
> 
> ...


1. Yes, unless you want a puny plant.

2. Yes

3. Got a problem with vegging a plant?

4. The same output.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2012)

Man, we must be on the same wavelength hehe. One minute apart! 

Folks like him are setting themselves up for failure


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## Danielsgb (Feb 14, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Man, we must be on the same wavelength hehe. One minute apart!
> 
> Folks like him are setting themselves up for failure


Yep, I have learned from you. I'm glad I answered like you did. I did chuckle when I realized you just answered too.
Cramming 8 into a 3'x17" and also topping with a 3' ceiling is not a good idea to IMHO. Fitting 3 in that footprint is pushing it.


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## rmc31 (Feb 14, 2012)

Hi all and most important UB. 

Great thread I am upto page 220 nearly half way so I am sorry if this is a pain if I am repeating stuff again. I am now going ask my first question here.
I am growing new clones from my own mothers (sativa and indica) and I have seen it mentioned here how to get the plants back to growing the 2 matching nodes with 24 hr lighting. This is correct ?

So my main question is if this takes a few node's up to achive, am I correct to do this just take off a couple of the lower ones (these will change to roots) and transplant the plant futher down the pot and this will work or will the plant still think that its growing from a higher node e.g 5/6 ?


I thank you for you help and any advice.


ps. I am still reading the thread to the finish


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## baseball8008 (Feb 14, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> 1. Yes, unless you want a puny plant.
> 
> 2. Yes
> 
> ...



Thanks for your responses.

BB.


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## baseball8008 (Feb 14, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Man, we must be on the same wavelength hehe. One minute apart!
> 
> Folks like him are setting themselves up for failure


If my grow is a failure, I will let you know for sure, as it seems you would be delighted.

If it is successful, I will let you know too.

Nice attitude old man!


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2012)

baseball8008 said:


> If my grow is a failure, I will let you know for sure, as it seems you would be delighted.
> 
> If it is successful, I will let you know too.
> 
> Nice attitude old man!


You wanted my opinion and now you're not happy with some facts? Any one thinking about starting a seed with a 12/12 photoperiod doesn't know what they are doing.

Look people, I'm gonna say this again. DO NOT come in here with basic cultural questions, I just don't have the time nor patience to deal with noobs that have never grown a plant before, as reflected by your lack of plant anatomy, growth processes, etc., speculation regarding the "what ifs". Also, if you haven't read the first page, then don't waste my/our time.

There, you've been schooled regarding my boundaries.

UB


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## bowlfullofbliss (Feb 15, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> You wanted my opinion and now you're not happy with some facts? Any one thinking about starting a seed with a 12/12 photoperiod doesn't know what they are doing.
> 
> Look people, I'm gonna say this again. DO NOT come in here with basic cultural questions, I just don't have the time nor patience to deal with noobs that have never grown a plant before, as reflected by your lack of plant anatomy, growth processes, etc., speculation regarding the "what ifs". Also, if you haven't read the first page, then don't waste my/our time.
> 
> ...



meanie................

Poor nubes......no one loves them .


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## baseball8008 (Feb 15, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> You wanted my opinion and now you're not happy with some facts? Any one thinking about starting a seed with a 12/12 photoperiod doesn't know what they are doing.
> 
> Look people, I'm gonna say this again. DO NOT come in here with basic cultural questions, I just don't have the time nor patience to deal with noobs that have never grown a plant before, as reflected by your lack of plant anatomy, growth processes, etc., speculation regarding the "what ifs". Also, if you haven't read the first page, then don't waste my/our time.
> 
> ...



Fair enough and honestly you aren´t schooling anyone dude! I have done extensive farming in the agricultural business and I learned that through generations, Marijuana will not be a challenge for me.

Try growing 70 acres of cassava and pineapple for a living, that´s school and I was schooled at home.

Good Luck.

BB.


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## baseball8008 (Feb 15, 2012)

bowlfullofbliss said:


> meanie................
> 
> Poor nubes......no one loves them .


I am not even going to bother on commenting on your remark.

Cheers!

BB.


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## rmc31 (Feb 15, 2012)

Man I cant believe my luck.


I thought I would risk asking my question and hope to not piss you or anyone else on this site. But i cant believe I got caught in the middle of that cheers Baseball.

Dude if you dont listen to people like UB why come to this site, Plus go read one of the growing books cause man you are never going to make it to the end. This will save you alot of time and money. I not trying to be smart with you Baseball just saying you will be thanking yourself for doing it.

Peace Bro


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## baseball8008 (Feb 15, 2012)

QUOTE=rmc31;7122173]Man I cant believe my luck.

I thought I would risk asking my question and hope to not piss you or anyone else on this site. But i cant believe I got caught in the middle of that cheers Baseball.

Dude if you dont listen to people like UB why come to this site, Plus go read one of the growing books cause man you are never going to make it to the end. This will save you alot of time and money. I not trying to be smart with you Baseball just saying you will be thanking yourself for doing it.

Peace Bro[/QUOTE]

HI RM,

If I came here for help was because I thought people like UB will be able to help and not be smart with me, to use your own words, I do not appreciate that but now that I know UB boundaries I know he is not willing to help new growers, fine with me. I can only blame myself. 

I have done extensive research over the past 8 months (definitely not as much as one can achieve in 40 years of growing), read multiple books on line and off line, including Ryan Riley´s Growing Elite Marijuana but the subject of topping for 4 colas has only been covered by UB so I thought he would be the right person for guidance, again, my mistake, everyone here in RIU has been extremely helpful and has helped me a lot throughout my first grow never thought UB would take that stance towards my inquiries.

I am sure that topping for 4 colas and selective trimming to eliminate side branching I can produce 8 healthy plants (SOG) in my cabinet and just focus on those 4 colas per plant, 32 colas in total, even if they are not fat ones I am sure I can maximize yield that way. I have very good genetics, Sensi Big Bud, Casey Jones by head seeds and Heavy Duty Frutty by TH seeds, all heavy yielders.

I am on the 4th week of flowering of my first grow (I really felt insulted by UB when he assumed I had never grown a plant in my life, thinking that if it is not done his way, then it would be a failure) and even though my plants are not the best looking plants I am sure I will make it to the end of my first grow as buds are forming nicely, but I know for a fact I have made a few mistakes and most likely will continue to make mistakes, just not the same ones again. I also did a lot of experimenting which affected the overall health of my plants.

I am sure my second one will be even better and will definitely be using UB technique to top for 4 colas, not sure yet if I will veg the plants or not or how long I will be vegging. The number of plants and space has been well researched as well as the advance techniques I will be using on my next grow to maximize yield. Like I said, I will continue to make mistakes, just not the same ones again.

In any case, In the future I will be very cautious about who to ask help to in order to avoid all this, I am too old for this shit and I am too nice with people to be treated with disrespect or to be patronized by people who has never grown the amount of stuff I have grown in my life.

Cheers and thanks for your advice!

BB.


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## KUShSOurSMOKEr (Feb 16, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Glad it worked out for you.
> 
> Not one yellow leaf? Way to go! You must not be using "cannabis specific" foods.


UB how are u man? hope all is well..

when u use ur high in N slow release food...how do u feed?(just put in soil or put in water) and how much do u add(5ml)etc??

i am going to run this next run for super healthy green foilage along with dyna grow as u and homebrewer suggested 

i was wondering how much dyna grow u would feed to? and what product from DG do u use? 

thanks so much UB ive followed almost ALL of ur posts !!


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## Dolci (Feb 16, 2012)

I like to wait at least 7-10 days after FIM or topping. And yes during veg after 4th node.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 16, 2012)

KUShSOurSMOKEr said:


> UB how are u man? hope all is well..
> 
> when u use ur high in N slow release food...how do u feed?(just put in soil or put in water) and how much do u add(5ml)etc??
> 
> ...


Everything is geared on the total nutritional value of the soil. In general, I use 1 tsp per 1 gallon pot of a slow release 18-4-9 mixed in the top inch of soil. You need to develop your own program.

UB


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## Thedillestpickle (Feb 16, 2012)

I didnt think UB was being mean... just setting you straight on some basics of how to grow a cannabis plant. But please do update us on the progress, I can imagine your method would work in its own way by creating very short plants allowing you to keep the lights very close. I would use flourecents for your technique as it will be even lighting and you can get them right on top of the plants, and I definatey wouldnt go without some veg time as a plant in 12/12 will not veg for very long and little growth will occur between the time you top and the time that flowering begins.


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## KUShSOurSMOKEr (Feb 16, 2012)

uncle ben said:


> everything is geared on the total nutritional value of the soil. In general, i use 1 tsp per 1 gallon pot of a slow release 18-4-9 mixed in the top inch of soil. You need to develop your own program.
> 
> Ub


thanks ben
come on uncle ben i have my own program of course im not going to flower u nutrient for nutrient which ones do u buy from dg ?


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## poind3xter (Feb 16, 2012)

I just wanted to make a post in the 420th page of a thread on RIU. Rock on people!


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## Thedillestpickle (Feb 17, 2012)

210 pages by my 20 post per page count... Half way there! haha

I applaud your ability to keep up with this thread UB, truly you have patience. 

Kush Sour I believe what is generally recommended as far as DG goes is the Bloom Foliar and the Protekt. 
You don't need grow if you use foliar in the right ratio you'll get good NPK values. and the Protekt is a silica product, not sure if it has anything else in it, but you could always buy another lines silica product as long as it contains potassium silicate its the same thing
buy some magnesium sulfate(epsom salt), and a calcium additive and you should be totally set as far as your base nutes go. Additives are another thing... but from rigorous reading here on RIU and other sites I am beginning to conclude that additives arent needed.... amazing results can be had with the right ratio of nutrients and a dialed growing environment(from what I'm seeing anyways)

I'm pretty stoked to start using the DG bloom now that I'm in 12/12, I have this tingly feeling that good things are about to happen


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## boneheadbob (Feb 17, 2012)

baseball8008 said:


> QUOTE=rmc31;7122173]In any case, In the future I will be very cautious about who to ask help to in order to avoid all this, I am too old for this shit and I am too nice with people to be treated with disrespect or to be patronized by people who has never grown the amount of stuff I have grown in my life.
> 
> Cheers and thanks for your advice!
> 
> BB.



You have exposed yourself as a know it all newbie who is too immature to process constructive criticism. I did not really grasp the issue untill I was about 22. Some people grow old and never get it.

Never allow your feelings to cloud your judgement and do not let people rent space in your head.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 17, 2012)

KUShSOurSMOKEr said:


> thanks ben
> come on uncle ben i have my own program of course im not going to flower u nutrient for nutrient which ones do u buy from dg ?


I only have Foliage Pro.


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## cantoniog (Feb 17, 2012)

Uncle Ben!

I've read up on so many of your posts, I've learned a lot from you so far. 
What things do you do specifically, besides the proper lighting, nutrients, the basics, to promote vigorous root growth?
I'm running 5 gallon dwc buckets with almost 2 week old seedlings in rockwool cubes that sit in hydroton.
Do you add something to your solution? Should I water the hydroton around the rockwool to make the roots reach?


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## 420Bosco (Feb 17, 2012)

Here's my attempt at UB's technique http://youtu.be/_wYTcIgy2DA


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## baseball8008 (Feb 18, 2012)

Thedillestpickle said:


> I didnt think UB was being mean... just setting you straight on some basics of how to grow a cannabis plant. But please do update us on the progress, I can imagine your method would work in its own way by creating very short plants allowing you to keep the lights very close. I would use flourecents for your technique as it will be even lighting and you can get them right on top of the plants, and I definatey wouldnt go without some veg time as a plant in 12/12 will not veg for very long and little growth will occur between the time you top and the time that flowering begins.


Yes, as I have very limited space I need very short plants therefore the idea of 12 12. I am using fluorescent for my grow along with LED. I am almost sure I will veg until a week or tow after topping. Topping with UB technique will keep my plants short enough for my grow area. I was never too keen on 12 12 anyway.

Thanks for your input!

BB.


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## loquacious (Feb 18, 2012)

I was wondering when would you recommend topping a plant that is grown 12/12 from seed?


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## baseball8008 (Feb 18, 2012)

boneheadbob said:


> You have exposed yourself as a know it all newbie who is too immature to process constructive criticism. I did not really grasp the issue untill I was about 22. Some people grow old and never get it.
> 
> Never allow your feelings to cloud your judgement and do not let people rent space in your head.


I can accept constructive criticism if offered with the right attitude. I may have exposed myself, as you mentioned, as a "know it all newbie" but I do not consider myself one. I am very humble towards people with more knowledge than me, in general.

I am 40 and honestly I considered myself very inmature until I had kids, they allowed me to grow and mature as a person.

I liked this as I know I did let my feelings cloud my judgement/postings earlier on this thread:

Never allow your feelings to cloud your judgement and do not let people rent space in your head.

Cheers!

BB.


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## baseball8008 (Feb 18, 2012)

420Bosco said:


> Here's my attempt at UB's technique http://youtu.be/_wYTcIgy2DA


Good stuff. I can´t wait until next grow to try this technique.

Cheers!

BB.


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## baseball8008 (Feb 18, 2012)

loquacious said:


> I was wondering when would you recommend topping a plant that is grown 12/12 from seed?


I do not think you will get an answer for your question from UB, he seems not to like the 12/12 technique.

Good luck with your grow.

Cheers!

BB.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 18, 2012)

420Bosco said:


> Here's my attempt at UB's technique http://youtu.be/_wYTcIgy2DA


Nice video and such green healthy plants! Also, noted the root tip pruning pots. _ Smart. _ Don't know about the rest of your cultural techniques, but I'd say you well on your way to some really nice results!

Good luck,
Uncle Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 18, 2012)

cantoniog said:


> What things do you do specifically, besides the proper lighting, nutrients, the basics, to promote vigorous root growth?


I concentrate on root and foliage production only. If you can grow really great tomatoes and are smart enough to apply those principles to cannabis, you'll do great.

You can manipulate hormonal responses, photoperiods, somewhat without effecting plant vigor, health, and production in a negative way but understand that growing a plant as close to what it's exposed to in its natural environment works best. That means putting it through a vegetative stage so that the phytochrome levels which drives the flowering response has a chance to do its thing. If your cabinet and garden set up is restrictive, then don't grow. Plants are dynamic, they like room to grow one reason why all reflective planes were adjustable with my indoor gardens. As the garden's footprint expanded, I moved the reflective walls outward. This kept the plants bathed in the best reflective light possible.

Soul from the Bros Grimm and I used to battle it out over the vegetative period, what's long enough to produce good yields and potency. He preached that a plant could not reach it's full potential unless there was at least a chronological vegetative age of say..... at least 8 weeks if I remember correctly. He also advised his students that you shouldn't flip to 12/12 until see pre-flowers which he felt was a chronological indicator of plant maturity. He felt that potency was compromised by vegging for a very short period of time. Contrary to what they (Bros. Grimm) practiced and preached, I ALWAYS went to 12/12 within 4 weeks, usually just past 3 weeks from the time a seedling popped the soil's surface. Why? I had no choice, my plants grew/grow too damn fast even with a 7' tall ceiling regarding the light hood restrictions. 

There's a balance that must be understood regarding this growing thingie, compromises. Everyone has to learn a program that works best for them, their plants, and stick to it until you master what you're doing.

UB


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## 420Bosco (Feb 18, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice video and such green healthy plants! Also, noted the root tip pruning pots. _ Smart. _ Don't know about the rest of your cultural techniques, but I'd say you well on your way to some really nice results!
> 
> Good luck,
> Uncle Ben


cheers man, it's my first grow so that comment means a lot, i hope you're right  when do you think would be a good time to super crop them ? or should i bother ?


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 16, 2012)

LOL! Ole Uncle Ben still at it!

There are two types of people that offer "help" on this forum .... one that genuinely wants to help you out, and the other that is just here "helping" in order to get their ego stroked.

Uncle Ben, you are a grumpy old fart with an inflated opinion of yourself. If this is such a chore to answer questions, why are you still here?

Oh that's right, the ego stroking.


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## kingsalomon (Mar 16, 2012)

hi to everybody! im a beginner and i need proffessional help! now is about 22 cm, is a clone 3 weeks old from cutting.

i will put a screen and she is the first virtually touch the screen.

if i topping what happen? can i?

tanx


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## ThermalRider (Mar 18, 2012)

Awesome Tech topping after the 2 node... All these topped that way, Going 12/12 tomorrow...
First pic is of OG KUSH X trainwreck, defintley the Sative phenotype. One was topped at 2 node the other is IT's CLONE and just about as big... Pic of blurry (2) blueberry and (2) SLHaze blurry as well. THen C99 female seeds X-line(my fav) and then BLueberry gum... View attachment 2075032View attachment 2075033View attachment 2075035View attachment 2075036


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 20, 2012)

You need to get some high N food on those plants.


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## elduece (Mar 20, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> You need to get some high N food on those plants.


I think they're just ready for new pots probably because of poor circulation.


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## I85BLAX (Mar 20, 2012)

ThermalRider said:


> Awesome Tech topping after the 2 node... All these topped that way, Going 12/12 tomorrow...
> First pic is of OG KUSH X trainwreck, defintley the Sative phenotype. One was topped at 2 node the other is IT's CLONE and just about as big... Pic of blurry (2) blueberry and (2) SLHaze blurry as well. THen C99 female seeds X-line(my fav) and then BLueberry gum... View attachment 2075032View attachment 2075033View attachment 2075035View attachment 2075036


my blueberry gum grew like shit!!!!!!!! A damn runt!


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## 420Bosco (Mar 20, 2012)

what's with all the posts being deleted around here ? have i picked another forum run by paranoid mods ffs ?


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## cary schellie (Mar 21, 2012)

loquacious said:


> I was wondering when would you recommend topping a plant that is grown 12/12 from seed?


just so you guys know 12/12 from seed is bullshit, dont waste your time, veg plants like ur supposed to. I threw a seedling in my flower room just to see, ITS A WASTE!!!


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## Harrekin (Mar 21, 2012)

cary schellie said:


> just so you guys know 12/12 from seed is bullshit, dont waste your time, veg plants like ur supposed to. I threw a seedling in my flower room just to see, ITS A WASTE!!!


The plant vegges itself for like 2-3 weeks even doing 12/12 from seed, so it's not "bullshit" or a "waste" for people doing SOG or who don't care about having high plant numbers. 

Its just another technique for a different style of grower, might not suit you but it doesn't make it "bullshit" or a "waste" generally speaking. 

As for the guy who asked originally, yes you can top doing 12/12 from seed, it'll probably do away with the crappy lower branches that wont form properly in such a brief veg. 

I don't do nor recommend doing 12/12 from seed, but if the key fits...


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## I85BLAX (Mar 21, 2012)

Harrekin said:


> The plant vegges itself for like 2-3 weeks even doing 12/12 from seed, so it's not "bullshit" or a "waste" for people doing SOG or who don't care about having high plant numbers.
> 
> Its just another technique for a different style of grower, might not suit you but it doesn't make it "bullshit" or a "waste" generally speaking.
> 
> ...


I respect you're entire post to the fullest! Just because a particular format doesn't suit your needs doesn't automatically make it a sin! +rep


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## celticseas57 (Mar 21, 2012)

If I top at the 2nd node and on my 1st true node the leaves have dried up, do I count that as a true node, or do I top at the 3rd node instead?
Thanks,
cs


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## Harrekin (Mar 21, 2012)

celticseas57 said:


> If I top at the 2nd node and on my 1st true node the leaves have dried up, do I count that as a true node, or do I top at the 3rd node instead?
> Thanks,
> cs


Count from the bottom upwards the amount of nodes that grow branches...simple as that. Ignore the cotyledons and count from the node where your first branches will grow...


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## ThermalRider (Mar 22, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> You need to get some high N food on those plants.


I'm listening, I know you mentioned Peter's which is 20-20-20 i believe. All I could find was 15-30-15 at WalMart..


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## ThermalRider (Mar 22, 2012)

elduece said:


> I think they're just ready for new pots probably because of poor circulation.


I just put them into these 3 gal containers a week and a half before this. They were in the Largest Jiffy Pots before that...
I'm new at indoors. Would rather be growing outdoors but not in this state....


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## datdpeGY247 (Mar 25, 2012)

ok how many weeks old when u cut


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## Harrekin (Mar 25, 2012)

datdpeGY247 said:


> ok how many weeks old when u cut


Age isn't so much a factor as growth is, I believe UB recommends topping when the plant is at 5-6 nodes so it develops a strong root system beforehand. I just top when there enough space to make a clean cut without destroying the baby branches. 

You can clone the top you cut too, might be worth considering.


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## ImAgIaNtInDaGrOwWoRlD (Mar 25, 2012)

st0wandgrow said:


> LOL! Ole Uncle Ben still at it!
> 
> There are two types of people that offer "help" on this forum .... one that genuinely wants to help you out, and the other that is just here "helping" in order to get their ego stroked.
> 
> ...


OH COME OFF IT!!! when is the last time you think old uncle ben has had anything stroked?!? Give him a break.


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## fatboyOGOF (Mar 25, 2012)

howdy ben.

i topped my plants for the first time in a decade last go around. i used the regular 2 cola cut and this 4 cola method. everyone of them (3 different genetics) ended up with 2 good size branches and 2 T rex type limbs compared to the good size colas! i have pictures somewhere but just lost my buzz looking for them. 

what percentage of the plants that you topped like this ended up with 4 almost full size colas and what percent ended up with 2 good size and 2 smaller ones? 

have a great day! i harvest again on april fools day. oh that smell!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 25, 2012)

50/50 I guess.


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## g33k43 (Mar 30, 2012)

Wanted to stop in and say that I ran across this thread about a year and a half ago, tried this topping technique and have been very satisfied. Been a long time HID grower but have recently downgraded to LED and still having great results with it.

*"If you can grow really great tomatoes and are smart enough to apply those principles to cannabis, you'll do great"*

Ha ha, I am now putting my years of experience into growing tomatoes and lawn plants 

Thanks! Uncle Ben

Geek


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 30, 2012)

Thanks for stopping by! Take care of those maters. 

Happy gardening.


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## Jelly Pepper (Apr 2, 2012)

thanks ub for your post. i am am new at this and i have taken horticulture classes. what you say is true. thanks for the info.


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## Mohican (Apr 5, 2012)

Hi Uncle Ben,
I am ready to top this Malawi Girl and I want to confirm that I do it at line number 2 to get 4 main colas:







Thanks for the cool info!

Cheers,
Mo


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 7, 2012)

Mohican said:


> Hi Uncle Ben,
> I am ready to top this Malawi Girl and I want to confirm that I do it at line number 2 to get 4 main colas:
> 
> 
> ...


Looks to be the second node so I'd have to say it's the one you want.

Good luck


----------



## Harrekin (Apr 11, 2012)

fatboyOGOF said:


> howdy ben.
> 
> i topped my plants for the first time in a decade last go around. i used the regular 2 cola cut and this 4 cola method. everyone of them (3 different genetics) ended up with 2 good size branches and 2 T rex type limbs compared to the good size colas! i have pictures somewhere but just lost my buzz looking for them.
> 
> ...


You can help remedy this by topping for 2 colas, then topping those two colas for two again. 

The "T-Rex" limbs you describe are generally the two branches at the first node and my presumptions is because the top branches take dominance. When you do the method above, your 4 remaining colas will all be at a level vertical and horizontal position, so all 4 are "at the top" and they take off evenly. 

Means you'll get 3 clones per plant tho


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## Kyle Keen Green (Apr 11, 2012)

Hi UB, Can you kindly help me out... I've been reading through your technique can you take a look at these pics of one of my plants I would really like 2 colas. If I am correct its on its 4th generation now, Do I wait for the new leaves to grow then chop the stem or do I cut out the small cluster in the middle of the 4th Generation leaves? Ty again UB

View attachment 2117512View attachment 2117513View attachment 2117514


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## hotstang (Apr 12, 2012)

I was so excited when I came accross this thread. I'm laying out a new 5x10 space for myself with bubble buckets and thought this would be a great easy way for me to train and get good results (I currently have only done SOG style grows, never trained anything other cutting off the lower 3rd of plant days into flower). 

Then around page page 30 or so I read something about how this may not work with alternating nodes. I ran to check all my mother plants, sure enough all 5 strains had alternating nodes. I continued to read for 50 pages and didn't really see anything about this technique not working or what would happen if perfromed on a plant with alternating nodes. I just don't have time to read another 300 pages of this post right now so I figured I'd post. I apologize in advance if this is repetitious, I'm sure it's been asked b4, I just have not seen it


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## Mohican (Apr 14, 2012)

*MO'S TOPPING ADVENTURE
*
OK Uncle Buck - Here are the pics of my brutal beheading. 

Preperation:







Before topping:







After topping:







Quiet woman:







Close-up of the watering system - 5 gal LJT:







That was tense! Time for some 18 year old Glenlivit!

Cheers,
Mo


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## I85BLAX (Apr 14, 2012)

Mohican said:


> *MO'S TOPPING ADVENTURE
> *
> OK Uncle Buck - Here are the pics of my brutal beheading.
> 
> ...


That was intense!


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 14, 2012)

Mohican, I'm not Uncle Buck and what you posted is not my method. Go back to the first page.


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## Mohican (Apr 16, 2012)

Sorry Uncle Ben - I do not know where Uncle Buck came from! 

Well I guess it is too late to put the top back on. It will be an adventure. The top is doing well and is destined for the outside in So Cal until it is a monster. I need to figure out how to avoid the bud worms - neem or chili water.

Here is where the top is living until the roots are big enough to transplant outside:







Cheers,
Mo


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 16, 2012)

Looks healthy enough.


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## stonestare (Apr 16, 2012)

Ben I got a non mj question for you. I would send a pm but I cant. My tomatoe plants die in july when its gets hot out. I have a nice compost and my soil ph is 6.5.Do I need to lower the ph of the soil. My compost is dirt,peatmoss, leaves, blood meal, bone meal, and manure. The soil is loose but retains water quit well. I do not water until the plants start to wilt so I know its not overwatering. any input would be helpfull. Oh yes they are in full sun. I use a triple 10 fert and feed once a month.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 17, 2012)

stonestare said:


> Ben I got a non mj question for you. I would send a pm but I cant. My tomatoe plants die in july when its gets hot out. I have a nice compost and my soil ph is 6.5.Do I need to lower the ph of the soil. My compost is dirt,peatmoss, leaves, blood meal, bone meal, and manure. The soil is loose but retains water quit well. I do not water until the plants start to wilt so I know its not overwatering. any input would be helpfull. Oh yes they are in full sun. I use a triple 10 fert and feed once a month.


There could be a dozen reasons why your plants are dieing. June is the time for dry summer heat which means a ramp up in spider mites big time. Check for them. 

Your pH is fine. Sounds like you're pushing them with salts though. Salts indigenous to the organics and then the synthetics. If they're stressed, more salts will only speed up their demise, not help.

Less is more,
UB


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## stonestare (Apr 17, 2012)

thanks a bunch for your input, it is proboly to much fert. I have not had spider mites but will keep a eye out for them


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## Mohican (Apr 17, 2012)

Hi Uncle Ben,

Here are some pics:

Top day 5:







Side view:







Mother in a screen:







Cheers,
Mo


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## Hugo29 (Apr 20, 2012)

Hello Mr. Uncle Ben,

I would like to use your technique on my NL5xHaze 3 weeks old. I might have to wait some more time, because she only has 3 full nodes right now. Yesterday I tried to do it with a friend's Skunk#1 but got doubts and ended up doing a (what seems to be) safer approach at topping node 4. 

My biggest concern was due to the size of the fan leafs: up until node two they were very small and after node three they were outstandingly bigger and very healthy looking. The stem is also really thick witch made me think the plant wouldn't survive with 4 small fan leafs. 

If allowed, this is the thread I started in another forum:

https://www.autoflower.net/forums/f24/need-help-topping-skunk-1-sensi-seeds-8117.html

Cheers and thank you very much in advance. Props !


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 21, 2012)

Hugo29 said:


> Hello Mr. Uncle Ben,
> 
> I would like to use your technique on my NL5xHaze 3 weeks old. I might have to wait some more time, because she only has 3 full nodes right now. Yesterday I tried to do it with a friend's Skunk#1 but got doubts and ended up doing a (what seems to be) safer approach at topping node 4.
> 
> ...


Your plant is healthy so your topping to get 4 main colas would have been fine, doesn't matter what the lower leaves looked like. What matters is the quality of the foliar output after you do the dirty deed. You chose the 4th node.


----------



## Hugo29 (Apr 21, 2012)

That is amazing! Do you have pictures to show? 

Thank you very much for your answer.
What do you mean with the quality of foliar output? I understood most of what you've said.  
Would you use this technique with all types of genetics? For example, a NL5xHaze would improve quantity output with it? If so, would you do it and do you mind checking if my plant is healthy enough to handle it? 

Thanks again! Stay cool


----------



## rockyraccoon (Apr 24, 2012)

i have a stressed clone of banana kush, the folks on riu have been very helpful so far, and someone suggested topping. it began to flower early and is now starting to reveg. should i top this plant to help it live and produce?
thanks


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## thekidtokes (Apr 24, 2012)

what is the second true node


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## m150687 (Apr 28, 2012)

i have 3 8 week old 18" plants....flowering for a week now with 12-12.......and the first white hairs have just appeared......what would be the best light to use and how many.. thx


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## Rcb (Apr 30, 2012)

Topped my seedling just posting to see if i did it correctly


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## ANC (Apr 30, 2012)

Looks like a 6 cola cut that last pic....

The very bottom set of branches is always very thin and underdeveloped in my opinion, I'd snip them and see if I can use the ones above rather for multiple colas...


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## Rcb (Apr 30, 2012)

ANC said:


> Looks like a 6 cola cut that last pic....
> 
> The very bottom set of branches is always very thin and underdeveloped in my opinion, I'd snip them and see if I can use the ones above rather for multiple colas...


yea it does look 6 and the bottom one is first branch ha so yea maybe remove, but should i just cut the node and leave fan leave? or just clip both?


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## ANC (Apr 30, 2012)

I'd cut clean off next to the main stem, keep an eye on the spot, it might try some repairs later cause its still young, just nip it again...


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## Rcb (Apr 30, 2012)

ANC said:


> I'd cut clean off next to the main stem, keep an eye on the spot, it might try some repairs later cause its still young, just nip it again...


WORD. Thank you. its nite nite time for them so ill get it when they come back on or should i just got get it while in dark>


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## ANC (Apr 30, 2012)

I'd cut in the dry cycle (day)


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## Rcb (Apr 30, 2012)

ANC said:


> I'd cut in the dry cycle (day)


Ok. Thank you again ANC , sorry for thead jacking for a bit. I love this seedling such fat leaves so far, was told it was some kind of Kush.


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## HalfSackZach (May 1, 2012)

used your technique on 32 plants last night... thank you uncle ben im excited


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## bullwinkle60 (May 1, 2012)

m150687 said:


> i have 3 8 week old 18" plants....flowering for a week now with 12-12.......and the first white hairs have just appeared......what would be the best light to use and how many.. thx


It depends on the size of your room and heating issues but a 400watt hps would do nicely or you could use CFL's like I do. Whatever you want a soft light 2700k for flowering.


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## Uncle Ben (May 1, 2012)

HalfSackZach said:


> used your technique on 32 plants last night... thank you uncle ben im excited


Good luck with that!


----------



## Mohican (May 1, 2012)

Hi Uncle Ben,

My Malawi is loving the topping. I am using LST until I have the screen up:








Cheers,
Mo


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## Uncle Ben (May 1, 2012)

Mohican said:


> Hi Uncle Ben,
> 
> My Malawi is loving the topping. I am using LST until I have the screen up:
> 
> ...


I see some chlorosis going on there.


----------



## Tmac4302 (May 1, 2012)

Hey UB, 

Topped just below the 2nd node and ended up with this canopy.  Thanks for all of your information!


----------



## Mohican (May 2, 2012)

> I see some chlorosis going on there.


Thanks for the compliment - she is very sickly


That is just the color correction I made to compensate for the LED and CFLs. She is actually very dark green and healthy.


----------



## ThermalRider (May 2, 2012)

Day 44 C99 Female Seeds X-LINE smells like Overrippe Pineapple Top after 2 node (UB)Trademarked...
Last pic Dutch Passion BlueBerry only ended up with (3) Colas'...


----------



## Tmac4302 (May 4, 2012)

ThermalRider said:


> Day 44 C99 Female Seeds X-LINE smells like Overrippe Pineapple Top after 2 node (UB)Trademarked...
> Last pic Dutch Passion BlueBerry only ended up with (3) Colas'...
> 
> 
> View attachment 2151261View attachment 2151278View attachment 2151279


Where did you find C99 seeds?!?! I'll sell my left testicle for some... 

Okay, well maybe not my left testicle, but I'd pay good money for real C99 seeds!


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## ANC (May 5, 2012)

HalfSackZach said:


> used your technique on 32 plants last night... thank you uncle ben im excited


If you did that right, its almost 130 colas, talk about sea of green. Gonna take up some space though, hope you are outdoors.


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## Uncle Ben (May 5, 2012)

Mohican said:


> Thanks for the compliment - she is very sickly
> 
> 
> That is just the color correction I made to compensate for the LED and CFLs. She is actually very dark green and healthy.


OK. Thought I saw some veining going on and point it out.

Good luck,
UB


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## my1stgrow (May 7, 2012)

Guys I'm on page 235 and I'm pretty clear on how to do everything, but am I the only 1 that feels it should be more hardcore porn (8 week buds, colas, etc...)on here by now? Like I said I'm only on page 235 so if I just need to keep going just say so. I'm still in veg at the moment and I would just like to see some good pics of what I can look fwd to outside of UB's pics that keeps popping up.


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## dave1960 (May 7, 2012)

I like this method to and have used it for yrs myself...great post


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## keefbox420 (May 8, 2012)

nirvana ak48 loves being toped


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## keefbox420 (May 9, 2012)

by the looks of it they are on track but when can i top them again on the new tops iv created?


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## secretsparty (May 9, 2012)

where should I top this one at? Im new sry...

View attachment 2159961


----------



## ANC (May 10, 2012)

[/IMG]


----------



## keefbox420 (May 10, 2012)

jesus is god


----------



## Rcb (May 10, 2012)

No, ANC is god.. i saw it online hahah


----------



## I85BLAX (May 10, 2012)

ANC said:


> [/IMG]


what strain is this?


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## my1stgrow (May 12, 2012)

UB I hear u speak on these "snake oils" alot and I'm gonna assume your referring to fancy labeled synthetic nutrients (I.E. advanced nutrients), yet u also say your not a purist and I'm gonna assume u mean that u don't mind a little synthetics in your organtics. So my 1st question is am I right in my assumptions, and my 2nd is exactly what is your take on running a combination of the 2? I've had my best yield with synthetics, yet my best quality with straight organtics (tho it could very well be alot of other factors in play) so I'm thinking of running the 2 together then in the last couple weeks just going with straight organtics. Thanks in advance...


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 12, 2012)

my1stgrow said:


> UB I hear u speak on these "snake oils" alot and I'm gonna assume your referring to fancy labeled synthetic nutrients (I.E. advanced nutrients), yet u also say your not a purist and I'm gonna assume u mean that u don't mind a little synthetics in your organtics. So my 1st question is am I right in my assumptions, and my 2nd is exactly what is your take on running a combination of the 2? I've had my best yield with synthetics, yet my best quality with straight organtics (tho it could very well be alot of other factors in play) so I'm thinking of running the 2 together then in the last couple weeks just going with straight organtics. Thanks in advance...


Organics or synthetics, it's all about the ratio of NPK and micros. That means you need to understand plant nutrition. Charts and other crap will not help you. They are designed to help the pocketbook of the vendor. Plants are dynamic. You can not put them on a schedule.


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## my1stgrow (May 12, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Organics or synthetics, it's all about the ratio of NPK and micros. That means you need to understand plant nutrition. Charts and other crap will not help you. They are designed to help the pocketbook of the vendor. Plants are dynamic. You can not put them on a schedule.


So if I feed them organics 1 watering and synthetics the next, it won't affect uptake or anything like that as long as my ratios are in tack? Or let's say I mix the 2 in a single watering is this ok? I guess I'm asking for the pros and cons of this (if any) thanks... By the way my topped vegging plants are looking great I can't wait to start flowering them...


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## hardknox72 (May 12, 2012)

I was actually wondering about this. I use organics in veg because of the myco and bacteria, then I use synthetics in flower i.e. Maxi bloom(npk 5-15-14), koolbloom and supernatural superlicious. I Just bought Hydro Organics rainbow mix bloom (npk 1-9-2) I bought it because of the humic acid and mycorrhizae. I want to grow organic but dont want to sacrifice quantity. Im growing under 2k hps lights with a 6'x'4 scrog. Any advice?


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## my1stgrow (May 13, 2012)

mattlikesit said:


> man just watch...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Jkx7wuJ_RU&feature=plcp


What's the name of the vid? I couldn't get the link to open...


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## Uncle Ben (May 13, 2012)

hardknox72 said:


> I was actually wondering about this. I use organics in veg because of the myco and bacteria, then I use synthetics in flower i.e. Maxi bloom(npk 5-15-14), koolbloom and supernatural superlicious. I Just bought Hydro Organics rainbow mix bloom (npk 1-9-2) I bought it because of the humic acid and mycorrhizae. I want to grow organic but dont want to sacrifice quantity. Im growing under 2k hps lights with a 6'x'4 scrog. Any advice?


OK fellers, enough is enough. Take it to the right forum and don't hijack this thread.

Thanks


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## my1stgrow (May 13, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> OK fellers, enough is enough. Take it to the right forum and don't hijack this thread.
> 
> Thanks


Fare enough... Any recommendations (thread wise)?


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## gregdg1 (May 14, 2012)

sorry for spelling and hope all can understand with out getting mad 

im a newbe very newbe never have grown anything in my life befor and this is first plant and never have seen one but in pics so please bear with me im wanting and have been reading and looking im wanting to top my plant and as ub said i dont have a clue as to were the 2nd and 3rd node i belive i do but not sure i belive the first leaf is a cotyledons and attach and doesn't count. but after that i have like 3 leafs for the first couple sprat outs and then it goes into the 5 leafs is that the fan leafs i hope all is with me and i will post pics and yes i did look as you posted first trying to find out the plant parts like you said to here 
https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get-123.html#post3351245 as that would have been a lot of help but could not find i am growing outside from start to finish i germination the seed in paper towls and then put it in the ground in my back yard its slow growing but it looks green and heathy it has been ther since about the 28th of march i have a 6 foot stock ade fince and dont want it to grow past it as of right now it about 12 to 15 inch tall please help in toping it i have good luck with pics as i dont reed very well please if you have any quistions please ask as i will do my best to answer i will post pics in the next few days as my cam cord will come in im sorry for the book but im confuised as hell over this and just trying to do it right thx for any and all help


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## hardknox72 (May 14, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> OK fellers, enough is enough. Take it to the right forum and don't hijack this thread.
> 
> Thanks


My bad.peace


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## ANC (May 15, 2012)

I85BLAX said:


> what strain is this?


Local Swazi bagseed... I'm in africa, home to Sativa.


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## Uncle Ben (May 16, 2012)

Try here for basic info - https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/150004-plant-moisture-stress-symptoms-solutions-87.html


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## I85BLAX (May 16, 2012)

ANC said:


> Local Swazi bagseed... I'm in africa, home to Sativa.


She definitely is a sativa without question!!


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## JASON79 (May 18, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Try here for basic info - https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/150004-plant-moisture-stress-symptoms-solutions-87.html


is this how you do it, i am 21 day's in flower
my temp is a little high but i can,t do much about that 
thanks


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## JASON79 (May 18, 2012)

and this is how i veg them till 4 weeks before flower and then re pot and re pot again a week before i turn then over to flower
in the 2-3 week i use bamboo and pull the sides out


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## FresnoFarmer (May 19, 2012)

Hey Uncle Ben, coming to you from Cen*Cal here.This is my first grow and I used your topping method for 4 colas and.....it worked great. I just have 1 question for you, if you have the time. I topped and saw results within 48 hours. Great. But on this same plant the lower leaf tips and edges have been yellowing and falling off going upwards and now it has started to reach the new growth. It also has been occurring on a few other seedlings as well. I will take better pics tomorrow. Also I'm using Kellogg Patio Plus Soil(ph of 7.1) in pots and super soil in the ground mixed with native soil and compost(ph of 6.........with the exception of 2 plants in some local nursery potting soil(which are both at a Ph of 6.2). I started feeding MG All Purpose fertz at 1/8 strength right before i transplanted because the first set of serrated leaves yellowed and fell off. The second picture is the baby that is suffering the worst. If you could be of any help I would appreciate it. Also the weather has been between the low 80's and mid/upper 90's with humidty as low as 20% daytime and as high as 70% nighttime


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## Uncle Ben (May 19, 2012)

FresnoFarmer said:


> Hey Uncle Ben, coming to you from Cen*Cal here.This is my first grow and I used your topping method for 4 colas and.....it worked great. I just have 1 question for you, if you have the time. I topped and saw results within 48 hours. Great. But on this same plant the lower leaf tips and edges have been yellowing and falling off going upwards and now it has started to reach the new growth. It also has been occurring on a few other seedlings as well. I will take better pics tomorrow. Also I'm using Kellogg Patio Plus Soil(ph of 7.1) in pots and super soil in the ground mixed with native soil and compost(ph of 6.........with the exception of 2 plants in some local nursery potting soil(which are both at a Ph of 6.2). I started feeding MG All Purpose fertz at 1/8 strength right before i transplanted because the first set of serrated leaves yellowed and fell off. The second picture is the baby that is suffering the worst. If you could be of any help I would appreciate it. Also the weather has been between the low 80's and mid/upper 90's with humidty as low as 20% daytime and as high as 70% nighttime View attachment 2174471View attachment 2174472View attachment 2174488View attachment 2174473View attachment 2174489View attachment 2174474View attachment 2174475View attachment 2174476View attachment 2174477View attachment 2174478View attachment 2174479View attachment 2174480View attachment 2174481


Without following your day to day activities or having a guesstimate of the soil's nutrition charge, I don't have a clue. Looks like to me you're losing your root system though. When you flood the pots, how quick does the water drain?

UB


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## FresnoFarmer (May 19, 2012)

The water drains in about a minute or two. They get sunlight from ten till five. Day to day activities......I just mist my leaves before the sun rises. And I water once a week with tap water that i let sit for 72 hours. I have only fed once with the MG All Purpose at 1/8 strength. You think maybe I need to feed at 1/4 strength? I fed them 3 days ago. I just transplanted them all from solo cups. They are 4 week old seedlings. Strains include: Purple Kush, Lemon Kush, Og Kush, and a few Bubbas.
I couldn't find the NPK ratio to the soil I have in the pots.


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## Uncle Ben (May 19, 2012)

FresnoFarmer said:


> The water drains in about a minute or two. They get sunlight from ten till five. Day to day activities......I just mist my leaves before the sun rises. And I water once a week with tap water that i let sit for 72 hours. I have only fed once with the MG All Purpose at 1/8 strength. You think maybe I need to feed at 1/4 strength? I fed them 3 days ago. I just transplanted them all from solo cups. They are 4 week old seedlings. Strains include: Purple Kush, Lemon Kush, Og Kush, and a few Bubbas.
> I couldn't find the NPK ratio to the soil I have in the pots.View attachment 2174997


I'd try 1 tsp/gallon and see what happens. It should be a 3-1-2 ratio or something close. 1/8 tsp is just wasting your time.


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## FresnoFarmer (May 19, 2012)

I will definitely up the nutes to at least 1/2 strength. I was just kind of scared to burn them with all these people frying there plants, but then again it could be that they are just giving too much too soon. Anyways I appreciate your input I will definitely utilize this new knowledge. 

Also great thread by the way. I got a kick out of everybody not knowing where to cut when you specifically said cutting ABOVE 1st node=2 main colas and cutting ABOVE(not "at" lol) 2nd node=4 main colas in the first page lmao. 

Is reading really that hard people?? 

Well I'll be checking you out.

Cen*Cal


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## ANC (May 20, 2012)

Another pic of UB topped sativa.


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## Hasbroh (May 21, 2012)

If this has been covered I missed it as I haven't read all 430 pages! I have been keeping up for the last couple months, though. I have topped to get the four main branches but need to tighten them up some more so I'm wondering if going to eight main branches is the way to go. These are in pots outdoors and will go in the ground within a week. They will have about 50 cubic ft. for 3 or 4 plants in a 6x8' planter so they still have lots of room and time to grow. They have to be kept below 6', 5' would really be better. I will eventually LST and whatever else needs to be done. They are very healthy and 26-30" tall. Next step?

Oh, the breeder says they prune very well and still develop large colas. They are Sativa dominant and are Rishi Kush and Krystallica by Mandala Seeds.

Double oh, my local mentor said to clip each of the four branches above their first node. Agree? They all have eight nodes on each of the four branches.


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## ogilthorpe (May 22, 2012)

I'm trying to figure out if topping will help (with space primarily, less worried about yield) in my particular situation. I popped 12 seeds of which 6 are female. I have 11 very healthy WW, AK48 and Cheese seedlings at 4 weeks from emergence.

I had planned to run 4-5 plants in this tent, but wasn't sure how I'd make out on my first grow, so popped more seeds than necessary to cover for any losses. Looks like I will have more plants than expected to put into flower. 

My tent is 3x3x6.5 and can fit 9 2G pots. I know topping will give me wider plants, being my first grow I'm not sure how to plan. My gut tells me that lateral space will be a bigger issue than vertical, and that I shouldn't top on this run. Anyone have experience with a similar set up that can provide some advice.

PS. great post, very helpful info and easy to follow!


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## Hasbroh (May 22, 2012)

Hasbroh said:


> If this has been covered I missed it as I haven't read all 430 pages! I have been keeping up for the last couple months, though. I have topped to get the four main branches but need to tighten them up some more so I'm wondering if going to eight main branches is the way to go. These are in pots outdoors and will go in the ground within a week. They will have about 50 cubic ft. for 3 or 4 plants in a 6x8' planter so they still have lots of room and time to grow. They have to be kept below 6', 5' would really be better. I will eventually LST and whatever else needs to be done. They are very healthy and 26-30" tall. Next step?
> 
> Oh, the breeder says they prune very well and still develop large colas. They are Sativa dominant and are Rishi Kush and Krystallica by Mandala Seeds.
> 
> Double oh, my local mentor said to clip each of the four branches above their first node. Agree? They all have eight nodes on each of the four branches.


Would somebody respond, please. *I realize that what I'm suggesting will not be the ideal four big colas *but I need to keep the plants below at the most six feet. I would prefer to prune as opposed to LST etc. but I'm open to learned input. Thanks.


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## Uncle Ben (May 23, 2012)

Hasbroh said:


> Would somebody respond, please. *I realize that what I'm suggesting will not be the ideal four big colas *but I need to keep the plants below at the most six feet. I would prefer to prune as opposed to LST etc. but I'm open to learned input. Thanks.


You're suggesting that all cannabis plants and all cannabis culture is the same. Sorry, no one has a crystal ball. I kept Mexican below a 6' privacy fence by constant pruning. Yes, during flowering too. Start with the 4 colas, top the new output so it will branch and then go from there. If you're at 5' and still in the stretch mode, top again. I guess you could drive a couple of 6' T posts in the ground, cable tie 4' wide galv. mesh to it, and espalier the foliage. That's what I do with blackberries.

UB


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## chb444220 (May 23, 2012)

topped this blue dream 2 or 3 times. packin on the weight now. only at week 7


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## Hasbroh (May 23, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> You're suggesting Sorry, no one has a crystal ball. I kept Mexican below a 6' privacy fence by constant pruning. Yes, during flowering too. Start with the 4 colas, top the new output so it will branch and then go from there. If you're at 5' and still in the stretch mode, top again. I guess you could drive a couple of 6' T posts in the ground, cable tie 4' wide galv. mesh to it, and espalier the foliage. That's what I do with blackberries.
> 
> UB


Of course I'm not "suggesting that all cannabis plants and all cannabis culture is the same." Just looking for some ideas that I hadn't considered. Such as espaliering, hadn't thought of that! I'll just top as planned and take it from there. Thanks for your input.

CHB, very nice!

Edit: Done. Tried several levels just for the learning experience. Thanks all.


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## BZlady (May 28, 2012)

Great thread and going to show it to my caretaker of plants. I keep telling him to top some of the plants


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## x10u8n (May 30, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy!
> 
> Based on quite a few questions about topping I've received here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a-12.html I decided to reproduce a thread on my favorite topping method published at cann.com about 10 years ago. Even though I've got much better photos from many latter grows both indoor and outdoor, I'm gonna stick with the old photos from the original thread. Lighting is HPS from start to finish with the exception of using 4' long shop fluors from germ until about 2 weeks. Some pix were taken outdoors for better resolution thanks to an old camcorder I was using.
> *
> ...


Hi UB...Im doing a outdoor grow and want to use your Technic for 4 main colas. I started my seeds indoors on my window sill and they started real quick however they were all leggy , like up to 4in. between the cotyledons and the first true node and another 3 to 4in. to the 2nd node, after that the node spacing seems fine. I've planted them outside about a week ago and now have about 5 nodes which are spaced tight. My question is if I eliminate the first true node and make my cut above the 3rd. node will I still get the redistribution of auxins and hormones for 4 main colas? Thanks for your input and I do learn from your post.


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## silva hazey (May 31, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> At? Is that below or above? The exact point is important reason why I spent a bit of time explaining the hormonal response thingie. If you topped above the 4th node, you'll get a bushy plant with the last output to occur at the lowest node, if at all. You will not get 2 or 4 main colas.
> 
> UB


 Great info i wanna try it. My only problem is when my plants are at 5 or 6 nodes, the bottom 2 nodes dont usually have branches on them. my plants almost always produce branches in the middle and top. So my question is if i top using your method, will those bottom two nodes begin to push branches out even if there are no signs of branching there before I top?


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## Uncle Ben (May 31, 2012)

x10u8n said:


> My question is if I eliminate the first true node and make my cut above the 3rd. node will I still get the redistribution of auxins and hormones for 4 main colas? Thanks for your input and I do learn from your post.


Huh?.......


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## Uncle Ben (May 31, 2012)

silva hazey said:


> Great info i wanna try it. My only problem is when my plants are at 5 or 6 nodes, the bottom 2 nodes dont usually have branches on them. my plants almost always produce branches in the middle and top. So my question is if i top using your method, will those bottom two nodes begin to push branches out even if there are no signs of branching there before I top?


If you can't retain leaf sets on the bottom, how do you expect to produce/retain 4 main colas? Yeah, they'll push, but apparently you're struggling with plant culture. Botany comes first.


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## Nitegazer (May 31, 2012)

UB,

I would usually scrog, but I'm trying some new strains from seed. Since timing's tight, I'm not able to sex before flipping to 12/12, so scrogging's out. I'm giving your topping process a go, and pinched the plants last night. Given my space limits, this method seems like the simplest and least work intensive out there. I also like that the colas from four tops will be easier to trim than a bushy plant. 

It was a bit of a scare at first removing all that vegetable matter, but the plants have already recovered after 8 hrs, and the boost in branching has already begun.

I'll post pics once they are well in flower. Thanks for keeping this thread going.


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## coughee420 (May 31, 2012)

Uncle Ben, your the man! thank you! your technique is great!


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## silva hazey (May 31, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> If you can't retain leaf sets on the bottom, how do you expect to produce/retain 4 main colas? Yeah, they'll push, but apparently you're struggling with plant culture. Botany comes first.


Thanks for answering. Trust me i'll maintain those colas. Its just that in that early stage of life most of my noticeable branches begin at the 3rd node. Maybe I need more light down there but my plants grow vigorously its just those first 2 nodes. They will usually branch down there but not that early as 5 or 6 nodes, they just branch like crazy everywhere else its just those 2 bottom nodes. But as I said everything above those 2 nodes explodes(probably further blocking light down there). If you say they will still push out from the stem then i'll try. In your expert opinion, why do you think my bottom 2 nodes dont show signs of branching as early as 5 nodes? Would you say its lack of light? Nutrients? Thanks for helping.


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## Paulielow (Jun 2, 2012)

Hey uncle Ben if you wanted to keep plants small due to height restrictions could you top the four tops to keep the plant shorter or would this have a negative effect on the plant. I'm sure the answer would have already been in the thread somewhere but after 50 odd pages I figured I'd just ask thanks.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 2, 2012)

Topping produces a bushier, shorter plant.


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## FresnoFarmer (Jun 4, 2012)

Paulielow said:


> Hey uncle Ben if you wanted to keep plants small due to height restrictions could you top the four tops to keep the plant shorter or would this have a negative effect on the plant. I'm sure the answer would have already been in the thread somewhere but after 50 odd pages I figured I'd just ask thanks.


You could top......after you top......after you topped that top. So the answer is yes and.....We can't tell you weather it will have a negative effect because not all plants respond the same. It's kind of like if I got scratched by a cat it would have a terrible effect on me because I'm allergic to the bastards. Whereas you might not be allergic and get scratched by several cats and be just fine. My advice to you would be to top those tops and see what happens unless you are limited plants. Hope this helps dude.View attachment 2198332View attachment 2198333View attachment 2198334View attachment 2198335


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## haight (Jun 13, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Topping produces a bushier, shorter plant.


I got a Cotton Candy I topped and the damn thing still hit six feet. But what about clones? Does the same fourth node stuff change any?


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## ctwalrus (Jun 15, 2012)

wow i read all the way diligently to page 100 then saw it was 400 long..
first id like to say excellent thread uncle!
then id like to give you props for replying to people over the years!!
ummm i had one question
why no flush.. 
the flush brings out the true flavor of the bud without the nutrients 
sure you might get a few more gs but bud that ive had that wasnt flushed was inferior to bud that had been. 

so whats your reasoning behind it, your obviously experienced and have your reasons id like to hear them 

cheers mate


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 15, 2012)

ctwalrus said:


> wow i read all the way diligently to page 100 then saw it was 400 long..
> first id like to say excellent thread uncle!
> then id like to give you props for replying to people over the years!!
> ummm i had one question
> ...


A plant is not a radiator. You can't "flush" it. If you pushed the nutrients such that you have a stressed plant then you've got problems. If you're kept it nice and green until the end, then it should smoke sweet. I think the harshness comes mainly from the make up of the tars, terpenes and other stuff found in the smoke.


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## greennewfie (Jun 15, 2012)

this is an awesome thread UB. lots of info +rep to you i use alot of your info in my grows as now im gonna top my plants outdoors so they dont tower over the other raspberry bushes around too much lol!!
Thanks for your help!!


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 15, 2012)

Good luck with that!


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## Defuzed (Jun 16, 2012)

Hey UB, used your method 2 days ago and the new growth is very rapid, I'm amazed!
I topped 8 plants and kept 2 untopped to see the yield difference.
I'll post some pics in a week or so! Many thanks for sharing your method.

-D,


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 16, 2012)

Great, looking forward to your photos.


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## brotherjericho (Jun 16, 2012)

After studying this thread, I am going to try it on my next grows. I think it will be excellent for LED/PLL combo since I don't really care for LST or Scrog.


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## ctwalrus (Jun 16, 2012)

was just wondering UB
have you ever done this technique in conjunction with ScrOG ?


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 17, 2012)

ctwalrus said:


> was just wondering UB
> have you ever done this technique in conjunction with ScrOG ?


Nope. I don't do SCROG.


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## luckybear (Jun 19, 2012)

Hi Uncle Ben,


I have read around 150ish pages of this thread.. simply amazing. Every time I read your posts I learn something so I always wanted to thank you for that. Even if it was said hundreds of times I must say it again: YOU'RE THE MAN I didn't know how to get in contact with you but It became clear to me that this is the right place to ask (maybe I'm wrong). 

Here's my story: I have eight girls (hopefully) which are: 5 Moby Dick#2, 2 Critical Jacks (all Dinafem) and 1 bag seed which is 1month older than the others. 

I kept them inside for one month and then moved them outside.. Now they are extremly happy, it seems the natural environment is what they were waiting for At the end of this week they will have 6 nodes and I will top them your way, to get 4 main colas. I'll leave the bagseed alone because it already has 8-9 nodes. I'll post some pics if you want.

My problem is.. the area is full of little creatures and I guess its time to spray them with some insecticide.. I was really convinced to use Neem Oil.. but I'm not anymore bc a few weeks ago I read a thread where a guy was complaining to you about it and I know its 'not your type'.

I was wondering what do you use/recommend? I must say sorry for the long message and/if this was said in one of your posts but I couldn't handle them all.. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! And please excuse my english, I tried my best! Thanks again!

Luckybear


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 20, 2012)

Luckybear, thanks for the kind words and your grammar was fine. Much better than most!

Regarding insecticides, if you want to do the organic thing (which I don't do) than Neem or pepper/garlic spray is a good choice, so I hear. Pyrethrins are quite "safe". Kicker is, these products are short lived. If maintenance is not an issue, fine. I use imidacloprid which is a systemic. It is labeled for just about every kind of consumable crop. Mine are outside, no problems with insects. They got a soil drench of a product called Merit. Malathion and Sevin are safe, just follow directions.

For the most part, I don't use anything until I see a problem. Identify the enemy and then find the best product. I don't spray anything as a preventative. For example, I have peach trees that are loaded with fine premium quality fruit. Haven't sprayed with a pesticide in years and that was only when I had hoards of huge green beetles feeding on the fruit.


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## luckybear (Jun 20, 2012)

Well,

Thank you for your fast response! I have not seen any problems yet but I thought its good to be preventative. I'll follow directions

This is the second time when I put them in this area and I remember that last year I was terorized by some insects.. I guess its called 'green shield bug'.. from what I googled. 

I'm not sure if this was/is harmfull, but every time I came to see the girls the bugs were standing right there on the stems.. and this was annoying. In my country people are used to spray the grapes with copper sulphate.. but this is not one in my choices.. this CuSO4 sounds strange!

This year I'll identify all the enemies

Best,
Luckybear


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## frankcooper (Jun 23, 2012)

hey uncle ben, this is by far the best topping thread i have ever read. and you are so helpful with replying to every question. +rep.

im about to do my first bit of training ever. never did any type before but going to give topping a try. Can you tell me where exactly in the attached pics I should cut the stems to get 4 tops?

Seedling1 is about 4.5 inches tall, seedling2 is about 3.25 inches. I will let them grow some more, particularly the shorter one. I've marked the stems in the pics with blue and yellow boxes (only in blue on the smaller one as yellow node not grown yet). Is one of these the correct place to cut? Does the first set of true leaves correspond to the 1st node? Hopefully the pics come out as fullsize images and not just thumbnails.


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## Paulielow (Jun 24, 2012)

frankcooper said:


> hey uncle ben, this is by far the best topping thread i have ever read. and you are so helpful with replying to every question. +rep.
> 
> im about to do my first bit of training ever. never did any type before but going to give topping a try. Can you tell me where exactly in the attached pics I should cut the stems to get 4 tops?
> 
> ...


I'm no expert and I'm not uncle Ben but I've read this thread enough times to answer this I think.
First read the first five pages of the thread to make sure you get the concept of what your doing and then seedling #1 cut at the yellow line then seedling #2 should be right to cut at the blue line and you should get 4 main colas per plant. Remember not to cut too close to the node, hope that helps.


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## frankcooper (Jun 24, 2012)

Are you sure because the 2 blue lines correspond to the same node in each plant. the blue line is between the 2nd and 3rd set of new leaves in both. the yellow is between the 3rd and 4th. I added some text and arrows to highlight this but im not sure how legible the text is. I would have thought that they need to be topped at the same point to get the 4 colas.


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## Paulielow (Jun 24, 2012)

frankcooper said:


> Are you sure because the 2 blue lines correspond to the same node in each plant. the blue line is between the 2nd and 3rd set of new leaves in both. the yellow is between the 3rd and 4th. I added some text and arrows to highlight this but im not sure how legible the text is. I would have thought that they need to be topped at the same point to get the 4 colas.



Oh sorry mate I'm viewing the pics on a mobile and they weren't that clear so my bad. After blowing the picture up I see what you mean should be all good to chop at the blue lines, Once again sorry for the confusion. And sorry uncle Ben for sippin on your kool-aid I'll go back to reading the thread like a good little noob instead of answering questions.


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## WaxxyNuggets (Jun 24, 2012)

Paulielow said:


> Oh sorry mate I'm viewing the pics on a mobile and they weren't that clear so my bad. After blowing the picture up I see what you mean should be all good to chop at the blue lines, Once again sorry for the confusion. And sorry uncle Ben for sippin on your kool-aid I'll go back to reading the thread like a good little noob instead of answering questions.


I bet UB doesnt really care man. He and others on this forum have answered that question 100+ times, just push people to read the first 5 pages, EVERYTHING is explained.


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## frankcooper (Jun 24, 2012)

WaxxyNuggets said:


> I bet UB doesnt really care man. He and others on this forum have answered that question 100+ times, just push people to read the first 5 pages, EVERYTHING is explained.


I have read the first 5 pages. A few times in fact. What UB says is to top above the 2nd true node. In my original post I asked does the first set of true leaves correspond to the first true node? Nowhere in the first 5 pages says that. I took a photo of my seedlings, added text, arrows and coloured lines to help make certain that I understand where exactly to cut so that I dont mess up my crop.


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## I85BLAX (Jun 24, 2012)

you actually have the markings right on point!


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## Paulielow (Jun 24, 2012)

frankcooper said:


> I have read the first 5 pages. A few times in fact. What UB says is to top above the 2nd true node. In my original post I asked does the first set of true leaves correspond to the first true node? Nowhere in the first 5 pages says that. I took a photo of my seedlings, added text, arrows and coloured lines to help make certain that I understand where exactly to cut so that I dont mess up my crop.


This is from page one " To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node. *The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count.*" my understanding of this would leave me to believe that the first set of true leaves corresponds with the first set of nodes, atleast that's how it reads to me. Hope that answers your question.


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## frankcooper (Jun 25, 2012)

Paulielow said:


> This is from page one " To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node. *The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count.*" my understanding of this would leave me to believe that the first set of true leaves corresponds with the first set of nodes, atleast that's how it reads to me. Hope that answers your question.


Paulie I recall reading that and just wanted to be 100% certain. It does seem that the first set of true leaves is the first node. I'll cut at the blue line and earerly awaiting the development of 4 big fat colas. Thanks


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## Badmf (Jun 25, 2012)

Have you done LST vs topping?


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## frankcooper (Jun 26, 2012)

Badmf said:


> Have you done LST vs topping?


I've never done any training ever before. I'm going to try topping, fimming and lst. Whichever one works best for me will be the method I will stick with in future grows. Topping seems to be the most straight forward though.


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## blindbaby (Jun 27, 2012)

i been wondering how to get more yeild. i went from 600 to 1000 watt. and from 3 gal pots to 5. and no difference in yeild. less, in fact. now i know to cut above the second true node when very young? how much percentage wise, do you get than if u did not pinch? thanks.


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## ozric420 (Jun 28, 2012)

nice info , helps alot


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## brotherjericho (Jun 29, 2012)

I have one seedling that is 15 days above soil, but has 5 true nodes. Going to wait on the 6th before topping, but is that too young to top?


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## WattSaver (Jun 29, 2012)

brotherjericho said:


> I have one seedling that is 15 days above soil, but has 5 true nodes. Going to wait on the 6th before topping, but is that too young to top?


You should be fine. Unless you have a real wimpy stem under these 6 nodes. Otherwise do as directed in entry #1.


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## brotherjericho (Jun 30, 2012)

WattSaver said:


> You should be fine. Unless you have a real wimpy stem under these 6 nodes. Otherwise do as directed in entry #1.


Stem is pretty sturdy. Thanks.


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## The Real Slim Shady (Jun 30, 2012)

Just wanted to stop in and say thanks to UB for a very straight forward, yet brilliant technique that seems to be consistent.

I haven't grown in about 2 years, but I got some Green House The Doctor seeds coming this week and have built a 2.5x2.5x6.5 grow box with panda film and lumbar. Installed an intake and exhaust, CFLs, as well as a 5 gallon dwc/bubbleponics bucket, all ready to grow.

I'm going to grow 1 plant at a time and plan on using your method to get 4 colas as well, I'm gonna be implementing a scrog when they get bigger. Hoping for some colas the size of my limbs. lol


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## I85BLAX (Jun 30, 2012)

The Real Slim Shady said:


> Just wanted to stop in and say thanks to UB for a very straight forward, yet brilliant technique that seems to be consistent.
> 
> I haven't grown in about 2 years, but I got some Green House The Doctor seeds coming this week and have built a 2.5x2.5x6.5 grow box with panda film and lumbar. Installed an intake and exhaust, CFLs, as well as a 5 gallon dwc/bubbleponics bucket, all ready to grow.
> 
> I'm going to grow 1 plant at a time and plan on using your method to get 4 colas as well, I'm gonna be implementing a scrog when they get bigger. Hoping for some colas the size of my limbs. lol


Your goals a very achievable, you may wanna try more reliable genetics (like the freebies) than Greenhouse!


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## The Real Slim Shady (Jun 30, 2012)

Thanks! Yea I've heard plenty of negative comments about this seedbank. But it's all I could afford at the time after putting together the grow environment. Will def be looking at other seed banks regardless of the results from the doctor.


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## heresSMOKEY (Jun 30, 2012)

awesome post did this before reading your post wish i came here, yours was so much easier to understand than the bullshit version i had. ill send my bro here when he eventually germinates the afghan kush seeds i send him


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## malkovich (Jul 2, 2012)

Beautiful technique, im thinking of doing a verticle grow with asystem called PI technics, we are planning this in north africa as they dont have bud just mainly hash, this topping will come in handy. Keep up the good information brother.


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## robro (Jul 4, 2012)

brilliant thread uncle ben.i have only been growing for 10 months,and its great to find new things out,this method will allow me to grow sativas,or any tall plant in my small tent,90cm x 90cm x 1.6m.i must admit i have not read all the thread yet,so if this question has already been asked,i`m sorry.because of my limited height in my tent,i have been growing auto`s,would this method work with auto`s?i have been told its best not to do anything with them,also they usually start to flower before they develop 5 or 6 internodes(usually 2-3 weeks).thanx again for a great thread,not only will it help me,but i have learned something!


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## DelQ (Jul 4, 2012)

Thanks uncle Ben, this is hands down the best thread I ever read.. learned so much,,


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## xsavier (Jul 10, 2012)

UB i want you to check this out. This is my OG #18 untopped and not fimmed I went to take clones and was going to top it but then got a little side tracked with what I found. It was so crazy I just had to post it and get your opinion or advice if I can still top each main stem or if you think the genetics are already screwed and kill my girl. Three tops Three main stems.


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## xsavier (Jul 10, 2012)

Dam I tried to delete the attached thumbnails didnt want them in this post but I guess since their there they are pretty frosty!!!!!!!!


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 11, 2012)

xsavier said:


> UB i want you to check this out. This is my OG #18 untopped and not fimmed I went to take clones and was going to top it but then got a little side tracked with what I found. It was so crazy I just had to post it and get your opinion or advice if I can still top each main stem or if you think the genetics are already screwed and kill my girl. Three tops View attachment 2250157View attachment 2250158View attachment 2250159Three main stems.


Follow the first post. Does it say anything about topping during flowering?


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## chb444220 (Jul 11, 2012)

few shots of my Blue Dream that i just threw into flowering that has been FIM'ed. this strain takes very nicely to any training/topping/fimming. always end up with multiple tops. one is a little more dominant than the rest. but not by much. and i plan on cleaning her up a bit in a week or so. lollipopping is a must for this strain as well. i plan on keeping it around for a while. great yielder (got 97 grams dry off the last one). pretty frosty. very sweet taste/smell. clones very easily. bushes out nice.. turns blue towards the end of flowering... ONLY thing i dont like about it.. is it takes 10 weeks to flower. =/ i like shorter flowering times... i have a BlueBerry goin. and if its a male. i plan on crossing it to the BD in hopes to shorten the flowering time a bit and keep the stretch down a bit... anywayz. enough rambling. heres a few pics. these pics were taken on the 7th.. soo it will still stretch a bit for another week 1/2 - 2 weeks. ill take more pics once the stretch stops. soo the tops wil be more prominent . thanks UB for the tips. i read this thread back wen i 1st started. and it taught me alot

​


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## xsavier (Jul 11, 2012)

UB Im not in flower the last two pictures were from my flower room of one of my plants, meant to post those two pics in the frostiest bud thread. The first 3 pics were of the the OG #18 thats in question and she is still in Veg. She grew like that from seed with 3 top colas without me doing anything to it. So I was wondering what you thought about topping her since she already had 3 main colas. Didnt know if you thought it would still be ok or if I should just let her go. There is nothing in your thread about what to, or how to top a plant that comes "stock" with 3 main tops from seed. It is an unusal situation so just wanted your input on it!! Thanks again I did go through and reread the first few pages and didnt see anything dealing with my situation, so any thoughts or input would be helpful.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 12, 2012)

xsavier said:


> UB Im not in flower the last two pictures were from my flower room of one of my plants, meant to post those two pics in the frostiest bud thread. The first 3 pics were of the the OG #18 thats in question and she is still in Veg. She grew like that from seed with 3 top colas without me doing anything to it. So I was wondering what you thought about topping her since she already had 3 main colas. Didnt know if you thought it would still be ok or if I should just let her go. There is nothing in your thread about what to, or how to top a plant that comes "stock" with 3 main tops from seed. It is an unusal situation so just wanted your input on it!! Thanks again I did go through and reread the first few pages and didnt see anything dealing with my situation, so any thoughts or input would be helpful.


I'd leave it alone.


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## chb444220 (Jul 12, 2012)

xsavier said:


> UB i want you to check this out. This is my OG #18 untopped and not fimmed I went to take clones and was going to top it but then got a little side tracked with what I found. It was so crazy I just had to post it and get your opinion or advice if I can still top each main stem or if you think the genetics are already screwed and kill my girl. Three tops View attachment 2250157View attachment 2250158View attachment 2250159Three main stems.


that is pretty cool looking. it looks like a well dont topping/fimming job. lol. did the plant grow into the light at all and get burned? ive had plant grow too quickly and burn the top.. and it basically topped itself. lol. either way. looks good.


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## xsavier (Jul 12, 2012)

Thanks UB I was thinking the same thing, just wanted a second perfessional opinion. CHB nope its still about a foot away from the light and the light is a 4ft T5, it just did this on its own. Pretty cool i got a freebie!!!!


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## ENTergalactic Patrick (Jul 12, 2012)

Uncle Ben,

Greetings from your neighbor to the west&#8230;The Land of Enchantment. I just finished up reading this awesome thread after reading your other threads (Spinout, Moisture Stress, Tweeks). Saved the best for last one could say. Great information throughout; an asset to any community. I even enjoyed the occasional music cue, especially The Rockabilly Filly Rosie Flores&#8217; Boxcars. Spotify is a wonderful thing.

Hopefully not off topic here as for this was mentioned on two separate occasions, but within your soil recipe you mention &#8220;1 large bag each of vermiculite and perlite&#8221; as soil additives. Casa dePot sells 2 cu ft bags of Perlite and Vermiculite by Thermorock as well as a .31 cu.ft bag by miracle grow (perlite only). I really can&#8217;t imagine calling the .31 cu ft bag a &#8220;big bag&#8221; and am really curious as to what volume you would add vermiculite and perlie to your mix, either in gallons or cubic foot. 2 cu ft each of vermiculite and perlite would almost double the volume of the mix and somehow that doesn&#8217;t seem right either, maybe I'm wrong.

I am anxious to try out this mix as I too have fallen into the forum paradigms, especially regarding soil (I am *not* Roots Organics biggest fan to say the least). I am sure you will agree a good, healthy soil is the cornerstone to a great garden. 

Thanks again Tio, you are a true inspiration in my (and others) desire to grow big and grow hard.

Ent Pat

PS, If you are part of or prefer any non-cannabis grow forums, please let me know. I too want these fine premium quality peaches of which you speak.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 13, 2012)

ENTergalactic Patrick said:


> Hopefully not off topic here as for this was mentioned on two separate occasions, but within your soil recipe you mention &#8220;1 large bag each of vermiculite and perlite&#8221; as soil additives. Casa dePot sells 2 cu ft bags of Perlite and Vermiculite by Thermorock as well as a .31 cu.ft bag by miracle grow (perlite only). I really can&#8217;t imagine calling the .31 cu ft bag a &#8220;big bag&#8221; and am really curious as to what volume you would add vermiculite and perlie to your mix, either in gallons or cubic foot. 2 cu ft each of vermiculite and perlite would almost double the volume of the mix and somehow that doesn&#8217;t seem right either, maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> I am anxious to try out this mix as I too have fallen into the forum paradigms, especially regarding soil (I am *not* Roots Organics biggest fan to say the least). I am sure you will agree a good, healthy soil is the cornerstone to a great garden.
> 
> ...


Howdy. Volume doesn't matter. Add enough to get the aeration you want. I just put together stuff as a guide. There is no such thing as the "super soils" you see referred too, it's more like someone's "super egos". If you have a well grown plant with plenty of foliage and a good root system, it is next to impossible to induce root rot via overwatering. I have some healthy plants in 5 gallon pots and I bet if I gave them 2 liters a water twice a day they'd only grow faster.

Here's one of the best ditties on soil dynamics I've seen. http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0316064615891.html?14 

Good luck with the freebie xsavier.

Good luck,
UB


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## kinetic (Jul 13, 2012)

Sounds like U.B.'s post is taking a shot at Subcool and his supersoil if you read between the lines...Maybe I'm just a drunken, cheesed out friday night fool though


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## chickensoup (Jul 15, 2012)

Does anyone grow n coco I use a and b with cannazyme and pk 13/14 then ton o bud from bout week 2 1/2 in flowering. I'm using 4 ml per litre of a and b is that enough or right for the plant my ec and ph are fine so I can up it if it would be better.?and is there anything else anyone would recommend?i use 600 hps growing 6 plants. Sorry for posting on this av not got he hang of this site that much yet haha. .,, any advice from Uncle Ben would be greatly appreciated.,,thanks,.


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## S7M (Jul 15, 2012)

Uncle Ben, I'm in the middle of my first grow and I'm thankful that I had enough sense to wade through the hype to find some quality information from guys like you and riddle, it's much appreciated! 

I grow outdoors and I'm currently preparing for next years outdoor grow, finding places to dig holes and fill with a combo of peat, compost, and other stuff. I'm not going to be able to tend to these plants all the time so I'm looking for a good time release fertilizer in the 3-1-2 ratio. Peters has some time release but the ratio is way off. It's 16-9-23. Osmocote has some 14-14-14, wondering if you had any recommendations for time released products. 

I am definitely a noob to all of this, as I'm learning to read my plants a little better my hammerhead clones are really turning on and look great using jacks 20-20-20. My other seedlings and such I feel are lagging behind because of my lack of experience on how much is safe to apply and how often. This is something best learned by experience and I keep increasing the amount a bit and watching how my plants react.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 16, 2012)

S7M said:


> Uncle Ben, I'm in the middle of my first grow and I'm thankful that I had enough sense to wade through the hype to find some quality information from guys like you and riddle, it's much appreciated!
> 
> I grow outdoors and I'm currently preparing for next years outdoor grow, finding places to dig holes and fill with a combo of peat, compost, and other stuff. I'm not going to be able to tend to these plants all the time so I'm looking for a good time release fertilizer in the 3-1-2 ratio. Peters has some time release but the ratio is way off. It's 16-9-23. Osmocote has some 14-14-14, wondering if you had any recommendations for time released products.
> 
> I am definitely a noob to all of this, as I'm learning to read my plants a little better my hammerhead clones are really turning on and look great using jacks 20-20-20. My other seedlings and such I feel are lagging behind because of my lack of experience on how much is safe to apply and how often. This is something best learned by experience and I keep increasing the amount a bit and watching how my plants react.


I use Plant Products 12 month on everything. Been using it for years. It's a 18-5-9 with micros, made in Canada. Osmocote 14-14-14 would be fine if it has micros. 

Don't amend the soil unless it drains well internally. You'll create a pot in the ground that will waterlog the roots. Fracture the sides and bottom with a pick or large screwdriver if the soil is tight. A workaround is to plant in a 5 gallon pot and then sink it into a 3" deep hole you made with a shovel. Roots will grow thru the drainholes into native soil. Will be a management problem if you can't water frequently. 

Good luck


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## S7M (Jul 16, 2012)

Thanks for the help uncle Ben, I'll check them out for sure. 

Most places I plant have soil that drains really well, however I usually pour the hole full of water to see how it drains.


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## S7M (Jul 16, 2012)

Hey uncle Ben, one last question in regards to topping. I understand your concept fully but was curious if you knew what topping methods big medical gardens use like the ones we see in Jorge videos showing plants yielding huge amounts, the plants look like trees and have many colas. Do they top or what is the common method they use?


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 16, 2012)

S7M said:


> Hey uncle Ben, one last question in regards to topping. I understand your concept fully but was curious if you knew what topping methods big medical gardens use like the ones we see in Jorge videos showing plants yielding huge amounts, the plants look like trees and have many colas. Do they top or what is the common method they use?


Their common method is understanding what makes a plant tick.


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## S7M (Jul 16, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Their common method is understanding what makes a plant tick.



10-4

Found osmocote 19-6-12 tonight at Wally world


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## ENTergalactic Patrick (Jul 18, 2012)

> Volume doesn't matter. Add enough to get the aeration you want. I just put together stuff as a guide. There is no such thing as the "super soils" you see referred too, it's more like someone's "super egos". If you have a well grown plant with plenty of foliage and a good root system, it is next to impossible to induce root rot via overwatering. I have some healthy plants in 5 gallon pots and I bet if I gave them 2 liters a water twice a day they'd only grow faster.


Thanks for the reply UB, as well as the link...good stuff. 

Ent Pat


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 18, 2012)

You got it.


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## The Real Slim Shady (Jul 22, 2012)

UB or anyone out there.....

Does the formula work to get 16 then 64 top after topping for 4? Wait for the new growth from each main cola to get 6-7 nodes then top above node 2?

So 2 to 3 tops.

Will it still be consistent? Has anyone had results from doing this top get 4 colas then a week or so later do it exactly the same way on the 4 instead of one? Did you get exactly 16?


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## FresnoFarmer (Jul 25, 2012)

The Real Slim Shady said:


> UB or anyone out there.....
> 
> Does the formula work to get 16 then 64 top after topping for 4? Wait for the new growth from each main cola to get 6-7 nodes then top above node 2?
> 
> ...


you tell me
View attachment 2269050


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## FresnoFarmer (Jul 25, 2012)

View attachment 2269129..........


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## FresnoFarmer (Jul 25, 2012)

btw I supercropped in conjunction with topping thats why all the main colas are less noticeable


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## pblayde1906 (Jul 25, 2012)

First timer... I really want to top for 4 colas but I am just not understanding where i sould cut.


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## The Real Slim Shady (Jul 26, 2012)

FresnoFarmer said:


> View attachment 2269129..........


Thanks for sharing. My plant is 3 weeks old sitting in "the veg room" which measures 2.5x2.5x6.5. I also just received a 4x4x6.5 grow tent that I ordered online along with a fan filter speed controller etc and getting a 1000w digital dimmable ballast, bulbs, air hood, hanger kit in 1-2 weeks. That room is for flowering. I'd like as little plants as possible (ideally one big ass one) but maximum yield. I don't care about veg time as I will be going perpetual so I'll be getting bud every 8 weeks max.

That's why I'm contemplating how many times I should top to fill that flowering room up halfway before it begins the flowering stage. I'm thinking I would HAVE to top multiple times to fill out the space with one plant. But if I had 4-5 plants flowering at a time in that space, topping once for 4 colas would be ideal I would say. The reason I say 1 plant is ideal is because of federal and provincial law consider max 5-12 plants (depending on where you live and whether they are mature plants or not) personal use.

Nice plant btw. Rep added.


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## The Real Slim Shady (Jul 26, 2012)

pblayde1906 said:


> First timer... I really want to top for 4 colas but I am just not understanding where i sould cut.


I would have to reread UB's first post myself but going by memory you cut just about the 2nd node for 4 tops and above the 1st node for 2. Also make sure your plant has about 5-6 nodes total.


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## DrGreener (Jul 26, 2012)

I find topping to be useful for height issues i could never cut top a plant but rater super crop with pretty much same results why worry about 2 or 4 main colas when you can have hundreds???
all topping does is take away a bud site 
real topping is when you actually top to make more branches thus not only creating 2 - 4 colas but many more. 
And many do,growing out door below are a few pics note on one of them where i supercropped theres not 2 or 4 but 6 tops forming better in my books cheers as well other pics not 2 - 4 tops but more bud sites with out topping the very first pic is a topped plant with 5 top colas woopie lol


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## greenhash (Jul 29, 2012)

can i re-veg after harvest?


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## doogleef (Jul 29, 2012)

I can't believe that this thread is still going on people are still asking the same questions and coming to the same incorrect conclusions. Wow.


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## Low profile (Aug 3, 2012)

So I can do this as soon a the 6-7th node comes in and I just cut off the top to get 4 main colas? Can you make a sketch how it happens.


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 3, 2012)

greenhash said:


> can i re-veg after harvest?


Asian women have all the answers.


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## DrFrankenstien (Aug 11, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Asian women have all the answers.


lol.. just follow the links lol... well i fimd my bucket but normally do a combo of both.. and with a scrog it helps fill the screen faster.. muahahahaha


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## iamAK47 (Aug 17, 2012)

What about cuttings, above whitch node to you cut cuttings to get 4 main colas, above the 2nd or the 3rd node


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## hooterman (Aug 20, 2012)

Can anyone direct me to a thread that might contain a list of plants that do not respond well to topping? I have a Dinafem Shark Attack (super skunkXwhite widow) that has a bad case of necrosis on its larger leaves that appeared shortly after topping. Does white widow have issues with topping? thanks


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## I85BLAX (Aug 20, 2012)

hooterman said:


> Can anyone direct me to a thread that might contain a list of plants that do not respond well to topping? I have a Dinafem Shark Attack (super skunkXwhite widow) that has a bad case of necrosis on its larger leaves that appeared shortly after topping. Does white widow have issues with topping? thanks



Actually both of the strains take topping well individually, in conjunction I cant say. I think it might be in the medium.


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## hoagtech (Aug 27, 2012)

If the REAL way to top for success, You will need a katana and a headband. sooo: 
1. Place headband over face
2. Huff some paint for added effect
3. Yell OOOGASAKIIII!!!!!!
4. Lop that bitches head off

http://s1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff421/hoagtech/?action=view&current=klarakatana6m.jpg


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## DrFrankenstien (Aug 28, 2012)

hooterman said:


> Can anyone direct me to a thread that might contain a list of plants that do not respond well to topping? I have a Dinafem Shark Attack (super skunkXwhite widow) that has a bad case of necrosis on its larger leaves that appeared shortly after topping. Does white widow have issues with topping? thanks


It could be that your food is too strong.. your plant might be healing the wounds.. and taking up certain nutrients slower.. maybe the reason for the burn.. do you have pics?


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## Harrekin (Aug 28, 2012)

hooterman said:


> Can anyone direct me to a thread that might contain a list of plants that do not respond well to topping? I have a Dinafem Shark Attack (super skunkXwhite widow) that has a bad case of necrosis on its larger leaves that appeared shortly after topping. Does white widow have issues with topping? thanks


Only plants that branch badly "don't top well". No plant responds "badly" to topping, just some don't branch as much as others and can seem to be taking longer to react.


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## Paulielow (Aug 29, 2012)

hooterman said:


> Can anyone direct me to a thread that might contain a list of plants that do not respond well to topping? I have a Dinafem Shark Attack (super skunkXwhite widow) that has a bad case of necrosis on its larger leaves that appeared shortly after topping. Does white widow have issues with topping? thanks


Did my first grow with 3 shark attack found 2 phenos 1 super skunk dominant and 1 ww dominant both responded well to topping. Cross your fingers for the ss dom its nugs are chunky and it reeks...


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## Harrekin (Aug 29, 2012)

Paulielow said:


> Did my first grow with 3 shark attack found 2 phenos 1 super skunk dominant and 1 ww dominant both responded well to topping. Cross your fingers for the ss dom its nugs are chunky and it reeks...


Buy more consistent seeds maybe? F3/4 is usually the balls.


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## KlingonBastard (Aug 31, 2012)

Nice thread bro


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## frankenbong (Sep 10, 2012)

UB I hate to be a bother, but when you say *

"To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node"​




*do you mean the second node down, or the second node up from the bottom???


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## ddune2005 (Sep 11, 2012)

thanks ub for this post. not just the first page but alot of the info nuggets hidden away (haven't read everything only on page 80 ).


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## ddune2005 (Sep 13, 2012)

*

check out borntokillspams post post 205 theres a lil diagram that will help
*


frankenbong said:


> UB I hate to be a bother, but when you say *
> 
> "To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node"​
> https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get-21.html
> ...


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## Saitek (Sep 13, 2012)

Hellow this is my silver haze # 9 , 20 days 13 cm height can i cut above the second nodes for uncle ben or wait a few more days what do you think?


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## lbezphil2005 (Sep 17, 2012)

frankenbong said:


> UB I hate to be a bother, but when you say *
> 
> "To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node"​
> 
> ...


I do believe that the second true node IS the next node up from the FIRST true node - which would be the first set of true leaves. holy crap. the first true node, again, is the first set of true leaves after the cotelydons, which are the little round leafs that first protrude from the seedling. okay?


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## jmitchell (Sep 17, 2012)

Harrekin said:


> Only plants that branch badly "don't top well". No plant responds "badly" to topping, just some don't branch as much as others and can seem to be taking longer to react.


great way to think about it, i usually top all my plants...


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## tusseltussel (Sep 17, 2012)

wait your telling me the second node is the second node and the first node is the first woa....mind blown....j/k


lbezphil2005 said:


> I do believe that the second true node IS the next node up from the FIRST true node - which would be the first set of true leaves. holy crap. the first true node, again, is the first set of true leaves after the cotelydons, which are the little round leafs that first protrude from the seedling. okay?


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## halliemeadows (Sep 22, 2012)

*

https://www.planetganja.com/highsoci...=33786&page=62​




*link goes to untrusted site message - says somebody may be trying to intercept


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## VTMi'kmaq (Sep 24, 2012)

So here they be afetr my first time trying the topping technique, albeit alittle late on a few of them. Anyone in the community have any idea how i can gauge there dominant genetics? These were random bag beans, i have noticed the fat fans-indica dom? Just wanted to ask, this method seems to be verywell suited to my garden too bad it took me so long to discover it.


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## cannav0re (Sep 25, 2012)

dam.... im in week 3 of veg. and it's got quite a few nodes. so if i top at the very top right above the last fully develop node, which will be maybe 5 nodes high, will that be a bad thing? does ALL of the other nodes start acting like tops? which will then lower the yield since there is too many nodes? i always thought that topping would make ONLY the bottom 2 nodes right below the topped area become the main leaders. is that not true? i want to go into flowering maybe 7-10 days from today, and i have not topped yet. will topping still help and give me 2 main colas even though there are 5-8 nodes?

also, if ALL the branches become leaders, would it stop some of the branches from becoming leaders if i supercrop those side branches? and just leave the top 2 branches so they will act as leaders. 

-i gotta go through a few trial and error to be good at this... i just supercropped 2 of them last night. honestly dont know what it has done and what should be done now...


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## cannav0re (Sep 27, 2012)

i need helpppp.... been waiting on a reply. time is crucial..


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## skitzo (Sep 27, 2012)

cannav0re said:


> i need helpppp.... been waiting on a reply. time is crucial..


You can do this typing techniques at the fifth of sixth node I believe. I told a friend he only got 3 instead of 4. If you top now I believe it is recommended to washout 14 days to flower so the plant recovers...I think that's correct


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## tusseltussel (Sep 27, 2012)

how many nodes you got you may end up without any leaders if you have too many tops unless thats what you want. just top it and see you will learn how the plant grows I top at the 4th node and then again a week later on the next node downs branches but I grow a bunch of smaller tops per plant. If you want a 4 big tops do what uncle ben says they will have bigger colas with fewer of them and smaller with more. bigger colas have bigger stems but are less work to trim, smaller colas have smaller stems and are alot more work to trim becase you have like a milion of them(obvious exageration) more like 8-10 tops keep em even


cannav0re said:


> dam.... im in week 3 of veg. and it's got quite a few nodes. so if i top at the very top right above the last fully develop node, which will be maybe 5 nodes high, will that be a bad thing? does ALL of the other nodes start acting like tops? which will then lower the yield since there is too many nodes? i always thought that topping would make ONLY the bottom 2 nodes right below the topped area become the main leaders. is that not true? i want to go into flowering maybe 7-10 days from today, and i have not topped yet. will topping still help and give me 2 main colas even though there are 5-8 nodes?
> 
> also, if ALL the branches become leaders, would it stop some of the branches from becoming leaders if i supercrop those side branches? and just leave the top 2 branches so they will act as leaders.
> 
> -i gotta go through a few trial and error to be good at this... i just supercropped 2 of them last night. honestly dont know what it has done and what should be done now...


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## cannav0re (Sep 28, 2012)

theres actually over 10 lateral branches. if i top it now, all the nutes will evenly spread out to all the branches correct? so it wont do much since there are so many branches. what methods should i use to get big multiple colas? also, im gonna wait for 2-3 weeks till i flower it now. so what methods can i do within these weeks? i tried supercropping the ones that i supercropped a few days ago. but the stem is too tough to bend. i think i need to understand the meaning of supercropping, cuz im still puzzled. i dont see a difference after my first supercrop, which was 4 days ago.

another question. when topping, all the nutes evenly distribute among the branches. does LST or supercropping does the same? and does it stay that way or when after the main stem heals, will it hog most of the nutes again?


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## SetMeFreeAgain (Oct 7, 2012)

Thanks for the knowledge! Here's my plants using this technique.  I topped them between nodes 2 and 3 when they had about 5-6 nodes.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 7, 2012)

SetMeFreeAgain said:


> Thanks for the knowledge! Here's my plants using this technique.  I topped them between nodes 2 and 3 when they had about 5-6 nodes.
> 
> View attachment 2364940View attachment 2364941View attachment 2364942View attachment 2364943View attachment 2364944View attachment 2364945View attachment 2364946View attachment 2364947


Nice job!...


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## Kitch63 (Oct 8, 2012)

Hi All. Kudos to UB et all for this thread. Tried it on a plant on my last grow and it worked great. I know that the answer that I am looking for is probably buried somewhere in this thread but I can not seem to find the answer. After you top between the sec and third and you root this clone what is then considered the sec and third node on the newly rooted clone. thanks in advance for any help


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## tusseltussel (Oct 9, 2012)

Kitch63 said:


> Hi All. Kudos to UB et all for this thread. Tried it on a plant on my last grow and it worked great. I know that the answer that I am looking for is probably buried somewhere in this thread but I can not seem to find the answer. After you top between the sec and third and you root this clone what is then considered the sec and third node on the newly rooted clone. thanks in advance for any help


I'm no magician but the 2 nd and 3 rd node are the second and third node.....its just the cotyledons that don't count...a clones first node is a true node


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## cannav0re (Oct 13, 2012)

i read a book called "Growing Elite Marijuana", and it said that you can get up to about 4 tops. does it mean u cant get more than 4? if topped above the 5th or whatever nodes high, wont all the bottom lateral branches become tops? is 4 the max? cuz im thinking bout topping after the 7th node to get 7 tops. 4 tops is too less. or do i have to make the max 4 tops(if that's the only way), then top again to get the number of tops i want?


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## tusseltussel (Oct 13, 2012)

well funny you should ask.... some strains yo might get away with it I have in the past toped a the second then toped the branches coming from the 1st node and 2 new tops a couple weeks lateer with good results but every strain will respond diffrntly to this because there is a lot going on there you might end up with a lot of tops but reeally uneven look into the mainlining thread over in subcools world https://www.rollitup.org/subcools-old-school-organics/542308-main-lining-thread.html


cannav0re said:


> i read a book called "Growing Elite Marijuana", and it said that you can get up to about 4 tops. does it mean u cant get more than 4? if topped above the 5th or whatever nodes high, wont all the bottom lateral branches become tops? is 4 the max? cuz im thinking bout topping after the 7th node to get 7 tops. 4 tops is too less. or do i have to make the max 4 tops(if that's the only way), then top again to get the number of tops i want?


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## ddune2005 (Oct 13, 2012)

from what i understand 4 colas is the max you want because the resources split between those 4 and once you go past that you are splitting up the resources too much making an over all less productive plant. 
i could be wrong.
i have 10 plants right now using this technique 2 with 2 colas 4 with 4 and 3 cut at nodes higher to see what happens, 3rd week of flowering now and the 2 cola and 4 have great big stalks at their base while the others have half the size but seem to be much more busy. i think i am going to need alot of string to hold them up soon.
also 1 plant nothing done to it its stalk is on par with the 2/4 cola topped not as bushy as the rest for sure


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## doogleef (Oct 14, 2012)

It's all about hormones and the stem/root structure. For examples of this on crack check out the mainlining thread referenced above. Nugs has taken bonsia tree techniques and really pushed the MJ training thing to a cool place. 

Props to UB too as this has helped intro tons of people to the technique of topping


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## SetMeFreeAgain (Oct 14, 2012)

ddune2005 said:


> from what i understand 4 colas is the max you want because the resources split between those 4 and once you go past that you are splitting up the resources too much making an over all less productive plant.
> i could be wrong.
> i have 10 plants right now using this technique 2 with 2 colas 4 with 4 and 3 cut at nodes higher to see what happens, 3rd week of flowering now and the 2 cola and 4 have great big stalks at their base while the others have half the size but seem to be much more busy. i think i am going to need alot of string to hold them up soon.
> also 1 plant nothing done to it its stalk is on par with the 2/4 cola topped not as bushy as the rest for sure


Are plants in nature less productive because they have more than 4 colas? ...


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## cannav0re (Oct 16, 2012)

ddune2005 said:


> from what i understand 4 colas is the max you want because the resources split between those 4 and once you go past that you are splitting up the resources too much making an over all less productive plant.
> i could be wrong.
> i have 10 plants right now using this technique 2 with 2 colas 4 with 4 and 3 cut at nodes higher to see what happens, 3rd week of flowering now and the 2 cola and 4 have great big stalks at their base while the others have half the size but seem to be much more busy. i think i am going to need alot of string to hold them up soon.
> also 1 plant nothing done to it its stalk is on par with the 2/4 cola topped not as bushy as the rest for sure



but ive been seeing videos on youtube and they have a huge number of tops and all of them are really big. 
so for your other plants that are topped higher, are all the lateral branches acting as tops? also, when did you topped your 4 colas plant? at what week or what height?


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## tusseltussel (Oct 16, 2012)

SetMeFreeAgain said:


> Are plants in nature less productive because they have more than 4 colas? ...


again I am no magician but I will take a crack at it. nature.... you mean outdoors under the sun right.....vs. indoor under a light.... to get the most out of a horizntal light it is best to have an evan canopy but you know that right...... under the sun you don't really have to worry about that because the sunlight surrounds the plant rather than beaming streight down on it. Ithink maybe this is aimed at a shorter veg time and increased yeild withh less light than the sun. if you were to veg a plant for 3 months and had enough light indoors to cover it you coul probably grow mad huge tops...If I am wrong someone please correct me


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 16, 2012)

tusseltussel said:


> again I am no magician but I will take a crack at it. nature.... you mean outdoors under the sun right.....vs. indoor under a light.... to get the most out of a horizntal light it is best to have an evan canopy but you know that right...... under the sun you don't really have to worry about that because the sunlight surrounds the plant rather than beaming streight down on it. Ithink maybe this is aimed at a shorter veg time and increased yeild withh less light than the sun. if you were to veg a plant for 3 months and had enough light indoors to cover it you coul probably grow mad huge tops...If I am wrong someone please correct me


In my first post of this thread I said: *This is an indoor shot just prior to harvest showing the colas bulking up quite nicely. Notice how the weight of the heavy colas is naturally pulling them apart, which opens the plant up so that light can penetrate the interior of the canopy. This is the same principle used by fruit orchard managers who create an open vase profile for their trees in order to increase production. This profile also has a side benefit of providing good interior air movement which reduces fungal/rot pressures.*


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## The2TimEr (Oct 16, 2012)

Here is an l.a woman strain topped for 4 heads. was my 1st time trying topping and thought she turned out pretty well..


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## cannav0re (Oct 18, 2012)

ddune2005 said:


> from what i understand 4 colas is the max you want because the resources split between those 4 and once you go past that you are splitting up the resources too much making an over all less productive plant.
> i could be wrong.
> i have 10 plants right now using this technique 2 with 2 colas 4 with 4 and 3 cut at nodes higher to see what happens, 3rd week of flowering now and the 2 cola and 4 have great big stalks at their base while the others have half the size but seem to be much more busy. i think i am going to need alot of string to hold them up soon.
> also 1 plant nothing done to it its stalk is on par with the 2/4 cola topped not as bushy as the rest for sure


let us know which is best when it's finished. too bad u didnt try to do a 6 or 8 colas. maybe 6 colas and 4 colas will have the same size colas. also, at what week and height did you topped them?


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## cannav0re (Oct 18, 2012)

The2TimEr said:


> Here is an l.a woman strain topped for 4 heads. was my 1st time trying topping and thought she turned out pretty well..




im new to this... but wont trimming the bottom of the branches help make the top bigger? those little popcorns at the far bottom, though it adds up to a good amount, but will it be better to trim it and maybe the top will produce a bigger cola?


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## The2TimEr (Oct 19, 2012)

cannav0re said:


> im new to this... but wont trimming the bottom of the branches help make the top bigger? those little popcorns at the far bottom, though it adds up to a good amount, but will it be better to trim it and maybe the top will produce a bigger cola?


well the peices that don't really form proper buds right at the very bottom of branches that just remain hairy can get cut, you can see in the 4th picture, the plant to the left has it's bottom branches trimmed otherwise known as lollypopping, but the peices you see there on the 4 cola plant arn't what i'd want to chop off as they are decent sized, those are 1-2 gram peices!  and i dont think the main cola's suffered much from them being there..


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## NetGuruINC (Oct 19, 2012)

I must admit that first pic of the overhead view is FUCKING BEAUTIFUL. So which method do you guys prefer topping or FIM?


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## doogleef (Oct 19, 2012)

IMHO, If you have the room/time in the bud room then leave all the lowers ( no removing leaves! ) and at the end take the tops and leave the rest to fatten up. My veg room is way too full to leave the floor space occupied for the extra couple weeks in the bloom room so i take the other approach.


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## cannav0re (Oct 19, 2012)

The2TimEr said:


> well the peices that don't really form proper buds right at the very bottom of branches that just remain hairy can get cut, you can see in the 4th picture, the plant to the left has it's bottom branches trimmed otherwise known as lollypopping, but the peices you see there on the 4 cola plant arn't what i'd want to chop off as they are decent sized, those are 1-2 gram peices!  and i dont think the main cola's suffered much from them being there..


how can you tell if it will be a good stem to keep and which to cut? whichever that can catch light? cuz i have some branches at the very bottom that is quite longer than those near the middle.


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## tusseltussel (Oct 20, 2012)

NetGuruINC said:


> I must admit that first pic of the overhead view is FUCKING BEAUTIFUL. So which method do you guys prefer topping or FIM?


You are commenting in a thread dedicated to a topping technique....you can answer your own question from there. Fim,lol that's funny


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 21, 2012)

The2TimEr said:


> Here is an l.a woman strain topped for 4 heads. was my 1st time trying topping and thought she turned out pretty well..


Nice job! 

A general statement - if folks think removing leaves is productive, then you really have no business growing.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 21, 2012)

cannav0re said:


> how can you tell if it will be a good stem to keep and which to cut? whichever that can catch light? cuz i have some branches at the very bottom that is quite longer than those near the middle.


A "good stem" is one with the most healthy green foliage. Do two harvests - cut out the fat colas to cure and put the plant back under the lights to bulk up the bottom bud material. The point on the "trunk" where the bulked up colas turn airy below is where you should make your cut.

Happy harvest,
Tio


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## Samwell Seed Well (Oct 21, 2012)

i know it can be strain to strain but how long can you continue to flower a plant after tops are harvested . .generally?


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 21, 2012)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> i know it can be strain to strain but how long can you continue to flower a plant after tops are harvested . .generally?


Takes about 3 weeks for me for one of the "mutts".


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## bossmanSkrilla (Oct 22, 2012)

Hey Uncle Ben Is There Also A Way To Get 6... Instead Of The Traditional 4?!?


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 22, 2012)

bossmanSkrilla said:


> Hey Uncle Ben Is There Also A Way To Get 6... Instead Of The Traditional 4?!?


No. You have a trade off. The more colas you have the smaller they will be. I came up with this training method for several reasons, one of them being that I realized when topping to get 4 main colas that those colas resulted in about the same size/bulk as one main cola.

Uncle Ben


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## bossmanSkrilla (Oct 22, 2012)

Thanks Homie +Rep!!


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## cannav0re (Oct 23, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> No. You have a trade off. The more colas you have the smaller they will be. I came up with this training method for several reasons, one of them being that I realized when topping to get 4 main colas that those colas resulted in about the same size/bulk as one main cola.
> 
> Uncle Ben



thats not what i wanted to hear..... and it seems to be false. otherwise why is topping such a big deal? it makes sense that more colas= smaller colas. but if it's 4 colas, it should be more than 1 big main cola. though i wouldnt know about that.... i guess im expecting too much from 1 plant. but seeing all those videos on youtube, those plants are freakin huge! and they quote to be slightly over 1 pound. that is the kind of plants i want to grow. UB, do you know how to grow such big plants? or is it only huge because it has been vegging for a long time?


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 23, 2012)

cannav0re said:


> thats not what i wanted to hear..... and it seems to be false.


Not my problem. 

I have topped some O. Haze several times but that's only to manage their height. Also applied a PGR for the same reason. They are 7' tall, still reaching for the moon but pretty much under control for what is atypical sativa type stretch. If you think your mutts stretch, you should try your hand at a pure sativa. No indica, pure sativa which can only be found in some of the beans I have - TFD's O. Haze, Dalat Vietnamese, and Zamal..... surely not from the pollen chuckers you guys do business with. For example, Neville's Haze is NOT pure sativa. It's been bastardized with indica genes. Doesn't mean it isn't an awesome high and a good grower, just trying to qualify what goes on with this (cheesy) seed biz.

Bottom line, my Haze which is the original haze done by Sam the Skunkman's Santa Cruz neighbors from genetics he sourced is <Acapulco Gold X Colombian Gold X (S. Indian X Thai)> and has at least 12 tops where my Peak19 backcrosses still have 4 main colas (tops). None of the Haze "tops" can be considered dominant leaders in terms of apical dominance. You need to study botany which includes hormonal processes and of course get some experience. I think you're falling into the same old boring category as 90% of the noobs in cannabis forums which is searching for tricks rather than learning what makes a plant tick. "Supercropping", LST, SCROG......pffffffffftttttttttt. 

I could ask the same question, "why is LST such a big deal?" Whoever labeled the training method of LST is really indicative of the bullshit based on inexperience, feelings, and such that you find in these forums. Topping, in any form, does not induce stress. It only induces a redirection/collection of ho-moans. Noobies induce stress by not understanding what makes a plant tick...... applying the wrong cultural methods, using supplements, etc. "Low Stress" Training is a false statement. Then you have the pervasive myth/paradigm of flushing and the band plays on.......

Facts (experience) before feelings,
Uncle Ben


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## NastyNes (Oct 23, 2012)

UB -- first of all, great post and thread. I read about the first 35 pages but didnt see my question, which is, I grow from clones. As you know, clones are harder to count nodes, since often time, they have a stem or two jutting out before the real nodes start. Do I just count two real nodes and ignore the random sprouts before those that existed on the mother plant? Thanks in advance


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## farmit420 (Oct 25, 2012)

UB good stuff bro! much needed knowledge +rep all day man! i might have missed it but top in veg or flower? or can you in both? and if so does it stress the plant? sorry bro might seem like a dumb question! just dont want to mess it up when its time


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## herbbreeder (Oct 26, 2012)

i topped my plant a day ago but i cant see any new branches coming on it,
how long does this normaly takes?


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## bluntmassa1 (Oct 26, 2012)

herbbreeder said:


> i topped my plant a day ago but i cant see any new branches coming on it,
> how long does this normaly takes?


patients young grass hopper patients. 
and just so you know the new branches don't come from where you cut, lol they come from the node just bellow where you cut so their not really new branches their just new tops.


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## herbbreeder (Oct 26, 2012)

bluntmassa1 said:


> patients young grass hopper patients.
> and just so you know the new branches don't come from where you cut, lol they come from the node just bellow where you cut so their not really new branches their just new tops.


 okey thanks


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## tallen (Nov 7, 2012)

Sorry if this has already been discussed (don't have time to read all 400+ pages-lol), but my clones are from a mature plant and they have alternating nodes instead of symmetrical. I've "fimmed" my last couple rounds with decent but unpredictable results, but would love to be able to top for 4 colas reliably. Question is, would I be able to do that still with the nodes not being symmetrical? If so where would I top, 4th "branch" up? Or would I have to top twice to achieve 4 colas? Thanks UB, even though this is my 1st post I've learned a lot from you and others here. (long time lurker)

Nevermind, found it, won't work


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## MorockanMe (Nov 12, 2012)

If I did understand well , is to let the plant growing 5 t 6 nodes then cut it and leave 2 nodes ??? please somebody answers I have 3 plants all are 5-6 nodes , also I got cotyledons but on top of them a node that looks small dark green and kinda just laying down is that count ??


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## MorockanMe (Nov 12, 2012)

*[h=2][/h] If I did understand well , is to let the plant growing 5 t 6 nodes then cut it and leave 2 nodes ??? please somebody answers I have 3 plants all are 5-6 nodes , also I got cotyledons but on top of them a node that looks small dark green and kinda just laying down is that count ?? ​ 
*


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## MorockanMe (Nov 12, 2012)

bluntmassa1 said:


> patients young grass hopper patients.
> and just so you know the new branches don't come from where you cut, lol they come from the node just bellow where you cut so their not really new branches their just new tops.


Hey pls can u answer my last question


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## tusseltussel (Nov 13, 2012)

MorockanMe said:


> Hey pls can u answer my last question


cotyledons do not count so the node above them is the first node then cut the bitches above the second node it's all right there on the 1st page of this thread.


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## MorockanMe (Nov 13, 2012)

tusseltussel said:


> cotyledons do not count so the node above them is the first node then cut the bitches above the second node it's all right there on the 1st page of this thread.


it's ok if my plants have 8 - 9 nodes ? I don't want to fuck it up .


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## xp0c (Nov 16, 2012)

I did one of my 19 day old plants. I think it's right. 
It was 14 days when I topped with 5 nodes.


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## ilikecheetoes (Nov 21, 2012)

i always get annoyed when people ask questions already asked in a thread.... But jesus I cant read more than about 60 pages. 445 you guys are nuts.

How long after topping can you go to 12/12? In one of the first few pages UB says it doesnt stress the plants at all. So my assumption is I can pretty much stick to my routine.
I am coming from a perpetual SOG background and do a 0 veg routine currently. Al B Fucts method if it must be named 
Im thinking of changing things up a little.
Cutting down on plant numbers, topping via UBs method sometime in week 1 of veg and going another week before going to flower. 2 weeks veg total. I dont have enough room to go more than 2 weeks in veg and still keep my perpetual going.


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## ilikecheetoes (Nov 21, 2012)

pfft well i found it on page 120 or something.
https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get-126.html#post3373018

personal preference is the answer


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## doogleef (Nov 22, 2012)

I did the Fuct style thing for a long time. If I didn't have to worry about plant numbers and was OK with 1 strain runs I would probably still be doing it. Keep in mind that topping can have unpredictable effect on clones. Some clones grow up 2-3-4 heads in a uniform fashion and some just refuse to branch from the 1 dominant cola. You should still do it .. just be aware.


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## ilikecheetoes (Nov 22, 2012)

so i went into the room today all hot to trot on some UB style toppage... Couldnt find a single damn plant that has symetrically opposed nodes. All are alternating. Different strains, different ages none look like the pic on page 1... I should have grabbed some pics but it was cleaning day which always gets me grumpy and ready to get out of there.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 27, 2012)

Recently harvested outdoor grown O. Haze. Classic 4 main colas on a pure sativa hybrid. Note that the upper two colas are dominant, per my apical dominance explanation. Weird, but I had 3 main colas on one of the plants.



Tio


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## Trousers (Nov 29, 2012)

You should try defoliating those, you might up your yield a bit.


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## ihaveablackthumb (Dec 10, 2012)

The first 2 pics are not showing up, do you still have those pics that you can show me please?


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## Xrangex (Dec 20, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Classic 4 main colas on a pure sativa hybrid.



Thank you so much UB, made it easy as shit to understand and badass knowledge to have. Was finally able to give it a try and it worked perfect! 
Waited until begining of 6th node, cut above 2nd node 
and here she is 2 days after cut


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 20, 2012)

Xrangex said:


> Thank you so much UB, made it easy as shit to understand and badass knowledge to have. Was finally able to give it a try and it worked perfect!
> Waited until begining of 6th node, cut above 2nd node
> and here she is 2 days after cut
> View attachment 2449605View attachment 2449606


Appears you have good plant vigor/growth. Doesn't take long for the plant to react.

Good luck,
UB


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## JustAnotherUser (Dec 20, 2012)

Hi uncle ben, a little off topic maybe , but she is topped  i wanted to ask you on your take if that's cool.

As you can see i overfed Nitrogen by applying too much worm humus and or bloodmeal.

Is the damage you can see all because of the Nitrogen abundance? and is there anything i can do now to reduce this and let her flower with no issues? because the growth of the plant dosn't really seem affected to this point and she has been growing fine, i topped her a couple of weeks ago and switched the lights yesterday.
thanks.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 20, 2012)

JustAnotherUser said:


> Hi uncle ben, a little off topic maybe , but she is topped  i wanted to ask you on your take if that's cool.
> 
> As you can see i overfed Nitrogen by applying too much worm humus and or bloodmeal.
> 
> ...


What foods have you been giving her?


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## JustAnotherUser (Dec 21, 2012)

i have fed nothing but water all the way through. Soon as i transplanted into the 'hot' soil i could see i added too much of somethig.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 21, 2012)

JustAnotherUser said:


> i have fed nothing but water all the way through. Soon as i transplanted into the 'hot' soil i could see i added too much of somethig.


Bloodmeal can be hot. First photo reflects chlorosis.


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## JustAnotherUser (Dec 21, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Bloodmeal can be hot. First photo reflects chlorosis.


Not alot i can do now by the sounds of it, right? 
just wait it out and carry on with water? maybe light bloom feed? What would you do with her UB, if you don't mind me asking.


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## Fruitbat (Dec 22, 2012)

Ok first of all I want to thank UB for being the voice of reason. I've read so much asinine bullshit on these forums; aranging crystals in patterns around your plants, using an electrical charge on the soil, flushing, magical nutes and so on. 

The best advice from UB was to treat it like your tomato plants. I was over thinking my grows when I started and my plants were not happy. My heirloom tomotoes were always fantastic. Once I began to view weed like the toms, my grows got better. I realized that because of the nature of weed we tend to think it needs some special formulated high-tech hoohah to make it grow. We forget it is a plant just like any other. Less is more. 

Anyway, thanks for clear topping explanation. I'll be using it this grow. And remember folks; flush your turds not your plants!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 22, 2012)

JustAnotherUser said:


> Not alot i can do now by the sounds of it, right?
> just wait it out and carry on with water? maybe light bloom feed? What would you do with her UB, if you don't mind me asking.


A plant needs a complete diet. Give it to her.


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## Fruitbat (Dec 24, 2012)

Just topped my plants for 4 colas. Super easy.


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## budman111 (Dec 24, 2012)

Fruitbat said:


> Just topped my plants for 4 colas. Super easy.


Yep, i do this technique every time.


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## JustAnotherUser (Dec 24, 2012)

Well i thought i'd report back with my girl for anyone interested, she seems to have nice brighter leaves coming out now in the newer growth and i should be seeing some buds forming within the week.

[URL=http://freeimgsharing.com/viewer.php?file=86807557149391714426.jpg][/URL]


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## confiscious (Dec 27, 2012)

Hey UB Thank You  - this is my second grow. I finally picked up a copy of Mel Frank's Book - Damn Damn I wish I would have bought it last year. For all the beginning growers, or growers who are wasting a lot of time trying to learn everything through the forums Just go by the Dang Book. I'm kicking my self that I didn't do it sooner - Im sure there are others as well, but bottom line go get a good general book and read.


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## perkele (Dec 30, 2012)

Hi Uncle, many thanks for your tutorial. I am on my second grow. At the moment I am growing 2x feminized DP blueberries under CFL's and I am very interested in the topping technique. My plants are still young, only day 10 from seed, but I will follow you 4 coal technique. Many thanks for sharing the knowledge!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 30, 2012)

perkele said:


> Hi Uncle, many thanks for your tutorial. I am on my second grow. At the moment I am growing 2x feminized DP blueberries under CFL's and I am very interested in the topping technique. My plants are still young, only day 10 from seed, but I will follow you 4 coal technique. Many thanks for sharing the knowledge!


It's easy peasy!

Good luck,
UB


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## HeavyDutyNugz (Dec 31, 2012)

I have found this thread really cool, thanks for all the knoledge uncle ben, i'll sure be trying this out once i get going


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## smokeytokeybear (Jan 1, 2013)

is there a significant difference in over all yield to the 4 main colas as opposed to letting it grow naturally with no topping?
thanks for the great info filling my notebook up with ideas


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## thatsmybubby! (Jan 3, 2013)

Hi uncle ben..i think this is a wonderful thread...i want to execute your topping technique but want to make sure its okay and it wont stress the plant too much to go back and retop it at its third node because i had already topped her 3 days ago at her highest node which is her sixth node..the plant is 9 inches tall..the secondary nodes are coming along nicely..
And if i do open her up? Does that speed up the end result..? Im not sure what exactly i have..but it is definately a hybrid indica dominent..very beautiful plant i think;.. With short tight nodes every inch..
thanks in advance


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## thatsmybubby! (Jan 4, 2013)

I tried topping and I guess i fimmed it because there is knew growth..but I cut it so low I dont know how this happened...View attachment 2466759


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## ripple123 (Jan 4, 2013)

UB - 
Im a complete NOOB! ffs! when you said the "*The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count." * i then assumed the first true node was the 2nd node, and therefor cut just above the 3rd! (thinking it was the true second) *doh* an hour later realised my mistake and corrected. will this shock the plant even more or have any adverse effects? hope not. Was 70mins between cuts.


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## perkele (Jan 5, 2013)

Have you tried combining your method with a LST plant?


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## elkukupanda (Jan 12, 2013)

Hey UB,
so what makes a plant thicker? i'm not expecting a straight forward answer but can you refer me to any book that might get me going... actually let me know of botany//horticultural books that i can begin with please.
Thanks


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## MrStickyScissors (Jan 12, 2013)

i top 2 weeks into flowering. some may disagree but it works for me i also lst all thru veg


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 12, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Hey UB,
> so what makes a plant thicker? i'm not expecting a straight forward answer but can you refer me to any book that might get me going... actually let me know of botany//horticultural books that i can begin with please.
> Thanks


Genetic based. Get Mel Frank's "MJ Insiders Growers Guide".


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## smellzlikeskunkyum (Jan 12, 2013)

i find some strains take to the 4 stem thing better than others. some will only give you 2. and some will shoot out the lowest branches afterwards.

my pre98 bubba for instance, im not sure if should have gone for 4 main stems on it. its growing so slow in veg now. its like its never gonna get as big as i want.


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## ripple123 (Jan 13, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Hey UB,
> so what makes a plant thicker? i'm not expecting a straight forward answer but can you refer me to any book that might get me going... actually let me know of botany//horticultural books that i can begin with please.
> Thanks


Try using soluble Silica, this will give thicker stems and added strength and better resilience against pests. (builds stronger cell walls) this should add some thickness to your plant, also another way of getting more out of what you've got (yield) as a thicker stem will help transport nutrients and water more easily. to be used as early in its life as possible for best results.


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## ripple123 (Jan 15, 2013)

When applying this technique the opposing branches will tend to get fan leaves colliding in the center, they tend to lay on one another and build up condensation where they are unable to breath... question is do you remove one of the two leaves for purposes of air circulation and to prevent mold or fungus? moisture builds up on the surface.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 17, 2013)

unsubbed....


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 17, 2013)

WELL DAMN lol! Look what ya'll did hahahaha ^^^^^^^^^


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## Guitar Man (Jan 18, 2013)

UB, getting ready to top my girls. I'll keep you posted.


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## hhel11 (Jan 19, 2013)

4 didn't suit me.. I needed 12


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 19, 2013)

hhel11 said:


> 4 didn't suit me.. I needed 12
> 
> View attachment 2486554


Do it to it lol!!!

What technique did you use? What was that strain? And what was that yield like?!
I like the look of it! Nice work bro


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## hhel11 (Jan 19, 2013)

You've seen the thread, its my Blue Dream. Link's in my sig.


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 19, 2013)

Right on...My fault bro. You FIM'd it. And so do I...

Was thinking about Uncle Bens technique for this go around, but I'm gonna hold off until the next..


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## Guitar Man (Jan 19, 2013)

Topped the 2 girls this morning. Noticed almost immediate (positive) response to the lower branches/leaves that were covered from light. I have 2 strains here and I've grown both of these to full maturity. Looking forward to some nice colas.


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## hhel11 (Jan 19, 2013)

> *Right on...My fault bro. You FIM'd it. And so do I...
> 
> Was thinking about Uncle Bens technique for this go around, but I'm gonna hold off until the next.. *


- Funny as this may sound, I actually fucked up my FIM.. ( I know, the irony, I fucked up the fuck I missed method....ha) So ended up just topping after the 11th and 12th head, using a slightly modified version of this tutorial. I like to think of this tutorial as a guideline or a basic recipe. For anyone who cooks, being able to multiply the recipe is a handy thing. Ie- UncleBen showed us how to make 4 colas, I made 12. Without increasing space or lighting I couldn't really accommodate a larger plant, so I used this guide to get the *maximum* out of my grow armoire.

Obviously you have more things to take into account when increasing the number of main colas so exponentially, but with a little TLC, proper planning, and foresight, anything can be accomplished..


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 19, 2013)

True story bro. Every grower starts with a blank canvas for his/her art


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## grimeygreasy (Jan 19, 2013)

Great thread, thanks for the link to it in the 'fimming and topping 101' thread. Im slowly making my way through the 450ish pages in here, but something has popped up in my head and I don't want to lose my train of thought, so please forgive me if this is explained better in the next 400 pages.

Id like to touch on the topic of alternating nodes and asymmetrical growth:



regionaldragon said:


> What if you have alternating nodes instead of pairs of nodes, where do you top?





Uncle Ben said:


> You can't. Nodes must be opposing for the double output thingie. If your nodes are alternating, you won't get the effect as the top node (leafset) will be at a point on the plant that has the greatest collection of auxins, the newest, highest tissue. Auxins control a plant's growing dynamics. When you pinch out the tip of a plant that is in a veg stage (has opposing nodes/leafsets) then basically the plant splits the auxins and sends them to the 2 dormant buds located at the axis of where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk". Viola, you get simultaneous output, two new leafsets as shown on page one of this thread.
> 
> Good luck,
> UB


Please keep in mind that I am new to this, and bear with me if my questions are redundant. Now, I understand the theory of why topping wont work in the traditional sense when working with alternating nodes. Is there a method of topping that will benefit those of us with clones that are asymmetrical? (Possibly earlier in the stages of nodal growth when the distance between alternating nodes along the main stem is negligible to allow equal supply of auxins to new growth sites?) Is fimming a more viable option to create a situation that will be conducive to multiple mains? Or are we really this limited in our abilities to encourage multiple cola growth?

Also, is the reason for alternating nodes dependent on the location the clones were taken from the mother, or will the clones eventually revert back to even symmetrical growth? Is it strain dependent?

Sorry for the dump of questions, Ive got some experiments of different methods going on in my garden, I'm just wondering which side of the room I should be cheering for lol.

edit: first post!!!


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## OldGrowth420 (Jan 19, 2013)

Uncle ben don't leave us! we'll tell jokes


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## OldGrowth420 (Jan 19, 2013)




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## grimeygreasy (Jan 20, 2013)

Maybe if I put a little more effort in and explain a little better where I'm coming from.


Here is my one week old cut. Clearly you can see the alternating nodes beginning to grow. Not ideal for traditional topping methods, obviously.















Here it is a week later, even easier to see the asymmetrical growth. Would the plant view itself as being on its 7th node? or 4th? (1 and 2 being a pair, 3 and 4, 5 and 6...)









Here is where I "topped" it. It was the closest to a natural pair of nodes that the plant has generated yet. I'm sure once/if the plant gets a chance to stretch, the distance between the nodes would/will widen, but I'm hoping that 'topping' while they are close to a matching might produce the same or a similar effect as it would on a symmetrical plant grown from seed or taken from the main stem of the mother. 







I fimmed a bunch and topped a bunch just to see what happens, and I'm fully aware that my efforts may have been futile. My thinking was that I may as well try, as the worst that could happen is I end up with one main cola or some unpredictable asymmetrical cola growth. Thoughts?


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 20, 2013)

I'm awaiting results from your cuts bro Keep us posted! This thread don't have to die with UB lol.
The only thoughts I have are that it's a good idea by you to see what you come up with...


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## budman111 (Jan 21, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> I'm awaiting results from your cuts bro Keep us posted! This thread don't have to die with UB lol.
> The only thoughts I have are that it's a good idea by you to see what you come up with...


I think everything has been said about this topping technique. If they don't get it by now...


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## Izoc666 (Jan 21, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> I'm awaiting results from your cuts bro Keep us posted! This thread don't have to die with UB lol.
> The only thoughts I have are that it's a good idea by you to see what you come up with...


this thread wont die thats for sure since this thread is already sticky 

Uncle Ben already gave the many answers in thread that you re seeking, you just have to read it all, a lot of goodies in this thread and try to read all of his posts what i did...i learned a lot from his posts.

Peace.


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## 1highman (Jan 27, 2013)

I want to try this method, but not sure how to go about it with my 2 girls. This is them at 4 weeks veg today.

NL x BB
View attachment 2498306
Afghan Kush


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## grimeygreasy (Jan 27, 2013)

Izoc666 said:


> this thread wont die thats for sure since this thread is already sticky
> 
> Uncle Ben already gave the many answers in thread that you re seeking, you just have to read it all, a lot of goodies in this thread and try to read all of his posts what i did...i learned a lot from his posts.
> 
> Peace.





Sincerely420 said:


> I'm awaiting results from your cuts bro Keep us posted! This thread don't have to die with UB lol.
> The only thoughts I have are that it's a good idea by you to see what you come up with...





budman111 said:


> I think everything has been said about this topping technique. If they don't get it by now...



Thanks for your input. After a whole lot of reading I started a little experiment of my own, and my results seem to go against what was described in this thread when it comes to topping clones with alternating nodes. I certaily don't want to clutter up this sticky with my off topic ramblings, so if anyone is interested in following my findings, I started a thread relating to my test here. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/614260-fim-vs-topping-best-clones.html

mods, feel free to clean up my prior posts in here if you see fit.


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 27, 2013)

Just did made a bunch of different cuts to a groups or seedlings, including Uncle Bens topping method. Peep my sig for the cuts 
Results are proven if you follow instructions, so I'm hoping for 4 main colas


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## inspiredgardener (Jan 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> *LINK-O-RAMA*
> 
> Word to the wise - buy a good grow book and check out some books from the library on plant culture, especially indoor growing. Grow some radishes, lettuce, and tomatoes before you jump into this hobby - you'll learn alot from that experience and will save yourself alot of grief. Alot of folks have never grown anything in their life (and that's OK), just don't set yourself up for failure. Best advice to ya - learn what makes a plant tick, and the rest will come easy.
> 
> ...


There are so many broken and dead links here now I could cry.


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## inspiredgardener (Jan 28, 2013)

Read 31 pages this morning. Thanks UB and a few others for the scientific look at topping  I'll be using this method soon. _Very easy and predictable, not to mention low maintanence for the yield rewarded. _


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## Guitar Man (Jan 28, 2013)

These are my 2 topped plants, using UB's technique. The first few pics were taken 8 days ago. The others were taken this morning, and they are doing fantastic! They both have 4 main colas developing. Began flowering (12/12) 3 days ago. I have 2 different strains, as you can tell by the size difference. Planted the germinated seeds on 12/31/2012. Plant on the right is 17". Plant on the left is 9".


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 28, 2013)

<- Uncle Ben'd Critical Jack. Topped just above 2nd true node. Have 6 nodes when I topped it.


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## ShotgunWally (Jan 29, 2013)

i agree with you on that one thanx for all ur input ,ol hippy here peace, Shotgun


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## Sand4x105 (Feb 4, 2013)

UB, a quick question on this:
[I read first 5 pages...skipped to 201-301-401...then read the last few...]
Anyway, The plant I have picked to try this method, I have already taken the bottom two node/branches off as clones. 
So I would be cutting above the second, and third sets of nodes, [which are now the bottom two sets] right, this would still be ok ?
As long as you leave the bottom two sets this method will work, RIght?? 
Thanks UB...


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## Fruitbat (Feb 4, 2013)

Here is my TGA Dairy Queen x Sannie's Killingfields cross topped at the 2nd true node. So simple a stoner can do it.


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## Usernamewastaken (Feb 12, 2013)

UB: I read through 7 pages of this thread and am eager to try this method on my newly acquired rooted clones.

1 question: does it matter if the nodes are non alternating vs alternating as to where I should cut?

thaks

UNWT


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 13, 2013)

Usernamewastaken said:


> UB: I read through 7 pages of this thread and am eager to try this method on my newly acquired rooted clones.
> 
> 1 question: does it matter if the nodes are non alternating vs alternating as to where I should cut?
> 
> ...


This question has been answered a dozen times! READ 

I'm gonna post this one more time. There is a much better rendition of this thread at Riddle3m.com with a FAQ that I wrote to cover pointers that are buried in this thread. Bookmark or print this page people!

*FAQ

Q - Is your technique effective with a clone?

A - Only if the cutting (clone) has opposing nodes. Don't expect to get 2 or 4 main colas if the nodes are alternating. You're manipulating the plant's hormonal processes aka "apical dominance". The plant will redistribute the auxins equally to dormant foliar buds.

************************************

Q - Will this work on a landrace, indica OR sativa, and what about hybrids?

A - The hormonal processes, redistribution of auxins, work the same whether you have a sativa, afghan (indica) or your typical mutt.

************************************

Q - Can I cut above the 3rd or 4th node?

A - You can, but you won't get the same effect regarding bulked up main colas. I came up with this simple technique in order to increase main cola production from 1 main cola to 2 or 4. If you want alot of bud sites and a bushier plant, then top at say.....the 8th node, but, that's not my technique as described.

************************************

Q - I don't want to stress my plants. How long will this set my plants back?

A - There is no stress involved like underwatering a plant or giving it too much heat or light. They will respond with new output where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk" within 24 hours. If not, you have a cultural issue that you need to address. 

************************************

Q - You say to wait until the plant has 5-6 nodes before topping. Why?

A - That is only a guide to insure you have an established, well growing plant with a good root system. 3 nodes or 8, it's your call.

************************************

Q - Can I root the cutting?

A - Of course.

************************************

Q - What's a node??

A - Get outta here!*


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 13, 2013)

yeahhh buddy! UB is back to the topping thread! Thanks for bringing him back with those idiot ass questions hahah


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## grimeygreasy (Feb 13, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> This question has been answered a dozen times! READ
> 
> I'm gonna post this one more time. There is a much better rendition of this thread at Riddle3m.com with a FAQ that I wrote to cover pointers that are buried in this thread. Bookmark or print this page people!
> 
> ...


Again, I'd like to interject. I (and others) have had success with traditional topping methods on clones with alternating nodes, and although I wouldn't necessarily call the results traditional (symetirical mirrored growth from multiple new growth sites), new growth in multiple mains is still achieved. While I agree that technically you could say topping "doesn't work" if your barometer for success is simply traditional results, I don't think that the definitive answer is that simple.

my 2 cents anyways...


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## hiitsbob (Feb 14, 2013)

my plant had a slight mishap at seedling stage dried out a bit. 1st set of true leave tips dried out a bit and 2nd is not a set just a single branch.
made a nice recovery its 12 days now. wanted to make sure topping above 2nd would give me 3 top colas if not would like advice.
i am gonna top and scrog since i have a 2x2 room with cfl's and think this is best option for easy coverage with lights.
thanks for the advice bob.

the first pics are 2-8 the second is 2-13 today will be 14 day out of the ground.
View attachment 2524500View attachment 2524495View attachment 2524496


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 14, 2013)

grimeygreasy said:


> Again, I'd like to interject. I (and others) have had success with traditional topping methods on clones with alternating nodes, and although I wouldn't necessarily call the results traditional (symetirical mirrored growth from multiple new growth sites), new growth in multiple mains is still achieved. While I agree that technically you could say topping "doesn't work" if your barometer for success is simply traditional results, I don't think that the definitive answer is that simple.
> 
> my 2 cents anyways...


What is the title and subject of this thread? Another clue - there are some key words in what you quoted that just might indicate my desired result.

Stay focused......


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## drew425 (Feb 14, 2013)

I always thought topping was where you found new growth and cut it off the plant on the tops. I read your origional post and it shows where you made the cut right above the 5th node. Are you supposed to leave a little of the stem like in your first photo? Thanks again for the how too. Can't wait to try this


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## Guitar Man (Feb 14, 2013)

drew425 said:


> I always thought topping was where you found new growth and cut it off the plant on the tops. I read your origional post and it shows where you made the cut right above the 5th node. Are you supposed to leave a little of the stem like in your first photo? Thanks again for the how too. Can't wait to try this


drew425, I was a little confused when I first looked at this Thread, but take another look at UB's cut (photo on first page). You let the plant grow to 5-6 nodes, then, you cut above the 2nd node. That means, you are going to get rid of the upper 4 nodes. Once I realized this, I completely understood the technique.

Right now, I have 2 plants in my closet that I've done this too, and they have both responded like UB said they would. I am 20 days into flowering, and the plants are unreal! I've got 4 main colas on both plants, with other bud sights coming out of everywhere!

I am growing 2 different stains (Indicia and Sativia). The Indicia is doing fine without any additional cutting on top. The Sativia is a different story. The stretch took her up to my lights, so I topped her again on the 2 main cola's, which are coming from the upper node. Now, I've got 4 tops coming out of those colas!!!!!!

From my experience, this harvest is going to be incredible!!

(Pics coming soon!)


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## username1234567 (Feb 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben,

Got a question about topping, your method above the 2nd true node causes 4 main cola's, and above 1st gives 2 cola's.

I understand that.

My question is, what about with a polyploid? i have one with 3 leaf sets per node atm, would topping at 1st node give 3, and topping 2nd node give 6?

I guess it would, but want your opinion because you know about the hormonal responce thing, 

Thanks


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## hiitsbob (Feb 14, 2013)

well i went and topped today and tried for a clone with no root hormone.
it is a short bushy girl. hoping for the best its 14 days today.
1st 2 are topped pic 
middle 2 clone attempt
last 2 are pics from yesterday 
View attachment 2525036View attachment 2525037View attachment 2525038View attachment 2525039


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## drew425 (Feb 14, 2013)

Guitar Man said:


> drew425, I was a little confused when I first looked at this Thread, but take another look at UB's cut (photo on first page). You let the plant grow to 5-6 nodes, then, you cut above the 2nd node. That means, you are going to get rid of the upper 4 nodes. Once I realized this, I completely understood the technique.
> 
> Right now, I have 2 plants in my closet that I've done this too, and they have both responded like UB said they would. I am 20 days into flowering, and the plants are unreal! I've got 4 main colas on both plants, with other bud sights coming out of everywhere!
> 
> ...


Now I understand. So your waiting until the plant has 5 nodes and cutting it at the 2nd node correct? I wonder if that I accidentally topped my Sour Diesel? I had a light fall on it about 3 weeks and it snapped the main stem. The plant was about 18 inches tall so it had quite a bit more nodes and was already very fast growing. I taped it up but after about 10 days with no new growth and the leaves on that stem were wilting big time, I just cut it off. Another large side branch got dammaged too and I taped it up, but that branch made it. My girl now is about 43 inches tall and appears to have at least 4 main colas. 

This is her about 18 days ago. Shes about a foot taller now with lots of bud production and much more filled in. What do you think?


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## Guitar Man (Feb 14, 2013)

drew425 said:


> Now I understand. So your waiting until the plant has 5 nodes and cutting it at the 2nd node correct? I wonder if that I accidentally topped my Sour Diesel? I had a light fall on it about 3 weeks and it snapped the main stem. The plant was about 18 inches tall so it had quite a bit more nodes and was already very fast growing. I taped it up but after about 10 days with no new growth and the leaves on that stem were wilting big time, I just cut it off. Another large side branch got dammaged too and I taped it up, but that branch made it. My girl now is about 43 inches tall and appears to have at least 4 main colas.
> 
> This is her about 18 days ago. Shes about a foot taller now with lots of bud production and much more filled in. What do you think?
> 
> View attachment 2525054


That is correct. It looks like you did the UB top technique and didn't even realize what you had done! LOL From the way the picture looks, I see 4 main colas developing. If you can, shoot a picture of your nodes where the main branches have formed.


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## grimeygreasy (Feb 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> What is the title and subject of this thread? Another clue - there are some key words in what you quoted that just might indicate my desired result.
> 
> Stay focused......


Sorry, maybe I didn't communicate what I was trying to say properly. When someone comes in this thread and asks if your technique will work on a clone with alternating nodes and is replied to with a categorical "no", that simply isn't correct. I am well aware that this is your thread relating to your topping method for your results, but it is also a magnet for hungry minds wishing to learn about topping techniques in general. 

A better response might be that the _exact_ results you've described (at length!) in this thread aren't attainable if using a plant with alternating nodes, or that topping a clone with alternating nodes will net different, if still desirable, reslults other than the ones you've described.

After seeing how many times you've had to regurgitate the same info I can see why simply saying no is the most desirable answer for you to give. I can also see why you would be frustrated towards posts like mine. Maybe my focus does need more focus. But you're obviously here trying to help people, why shut the classroom door to people who have alternating nodes?


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## drew425 (Feb 14, 2013)

Guitar Man said:


> That is correct. It looks like you did the UB top technique and didn't even realize what you had done! LOL From the way the picture looks, I see 4 main colas developing. If you can, shoot a picture of your nodes where the main branches have formed.



Look for the pic tomorrow. It's annoying that roll it up wants to charge $1 for the phone app when grass city is free. (Hint, hint)
It seems people on here are really willing to help though


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

You are kidding me, right? 



grimeygreasy said:


> When someone comes in this thread and asks if your technique will work on a clone with alternating nodes and is replied to with a categorical "no", that simply isn't correct.


Read my lips....I'll speak realllllllll slowly since the clue was too complex fer ya - YOU WON'T GET 4 MAIN COLAS AS THE TOP COLA WILL BE DOMINANT DUE TO APICAL DOMINANCE. My method is specific in order to achieve specific, no fail results - 2 or 4 MAIN colas, all dominant as opposed to recessive buds/colas lower down a trunk. 

If I was your teacher I'd have you in a corner wearing a duncecap.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

drew425 said:


> It's annoying that roll it up wants to charge $1 for the phone app when grass city is free. (Hint, hint)


Grass City? I found some turbo posting admin jerkoff stealing my material, spoke up about it, was banned and the thread closed.

Wouldn't piss on the place if it was on fire - http://forum.grasscity.com/indoor-marijuana-growing/215941-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-enhance-flowering.html


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## drew425 (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Grass City? I found some turbo posting admin jerkoff stealing my material, spoke up about it, was banned and the thread closed.
> 
> Wouldn't piss on the place if it was on fire - http://forum.grasscity.com/indoor-marijuana-growing/215941-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-enhance-flowering.html


Im still somewhat of a newbie. Would alreanating nodes be where it has leaves that don't completely line up. Like the first node is on the left and it doesn't have a matching set of leaves on the right, and so on, and so on? I've got a few really good plant genes so I cloned them and each node has a matching set of leaves on the other side but they don't exactly line up. I could post a picture if that would help??


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

drew425 said:


> Im still somewhat of a newbie. Would alreanating nodes be where it has leaves that don't completely line up. Like the first node is on the left and it doesn't have a matching set of leaves on the right, and so on, and so on? I've got a few really good plant genes so I cloned them and each node has a matching set of leaves on the other side but they don't exactly line up. I could post a picture if that would help??


That's correct. Correct term is alternate phyllotaxy or whorled alternate phyllotaxy where the leaf petiole kind of spiral around the trunk like a spiral staircase. My examples clearly show opposing nodes.


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## drew425 (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> That's correct. Correct term is alternate phyllotaxy or whorled alternate phyllotaxy where the leaf petiole kind of spiral around the trunk like a spiral staircase. My examples clearly show opposing nodes.


Shoot for some reason your picture examples aren't showing up on my computer. Maybe its my work settings. Ill check when I get home. What do you suggest doing to increase yield for clones that have good genes but end up coming out with alternating nodes?

Thanks again for answering my questions


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

drew425 said:


> Shoot for some reason your picture examples aren't showing up on my computer. Maybe its my work settings. Ill check when I get home. What do you suggest doing to increase yield for clones that have good genes but end up coming out with alternating nodes?
> 
> Thanks again for answering my questions


Grow for the most root mass and foliage and maintain it that way until harvest.

I don't do clones. Don't have the patience. If I was to germ a seed in soil and you were to root a new cutting at the same time, I guarantee you I'd already be flipping a 14" tall plant by the time you got your clone ready for planting. 

UB


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## drew425 (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Grow for the most root mass and foliage and maintain it that way until harvest.
> 
> I don't do clones. Don't have the patience. If I was to germ a seed in soil and you were to root a new cutting at the same time, I guarantee you I'd already be flipping a 14" tall plant by the time you got your clone ready for planting.
> 
> UB


haha. Im very impatient too.


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## Guitar Man (Feb 15, 2013)

drew425 said:


> Shoot for some reason your picture examples aren't showing up on my computer. Maybe its my work settings. Ill check when I get home. What do you suggest doing to increase yield for clones that have good genes but end up coming out with alternating nodes?
> 
> Thanks again for answering my questions


I noticed the same thing about the pictures on the first page. If you let the page sit for a few minutes, they do come up on my computer.


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## grimeygreasy (Feb 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You are kidding me, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok. Last time. Its MY turn to speak very slowly, since you obviously aren't picking up what I'm putting down. 

Just to reiterate:

I agree, and stated clearly, that using your method on a clone wont get your specific results for obvious reasons.

Nowhere did I say that you will get the same results on a clone as you would with your method on a symmetrical plant.

What I am saying is that topping a clone has its benefits, CAN and WILL generate new growth sites, as well as encourage growth at lower sites. Telling people that it wont work isnt correct. It just wont work to get the same results as with your method.

If you would rather misinform people into NOT topping their clones, go right ahead. Hopefully they will do like I did, question things, experiment, and find out for themselves. You clearly have a huge wealth of knowledge, don't let your bias to the way you do things mislead people.


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## Fruitbat (Feb 16, 2013)

Oh good Lord.


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## NerdJr (Feb 16, 2013)

Here is what you get when you top every top for 2 and a half months View attachment 2527174View attachment 2527175View attachment 2527176View attachment 2527177View attachment 2527178View attachment 2527179View attachment 2527180View attachment 2527181View attachment 2527182View attachment 2527183View attachment 2527184View attachment 2527185View attachment 2527186View attachment 2527187View attachment 2527188View attachment 2527189View attachment 2527190 You get over 50 main COLAS, it has to be tied down as shown though  Sannies Mad Shack Strain, 20 CFL, 23 watt bulbs and organic soil ( Naturally ) and in a 115 L container, this is what you will get  Be sure and get the 5400k CFL bulbs


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## Xrangex (Feb 16, 2013)

Used your method under a 150w HPS, thanks UB helpfull as shit!


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 16, 2013)

grimeygreasy said:


> Ok. Last time. Its MY turn to speak very slowly, since you obviously aren't picking up what I'm putting down.


Yeah, I'm picking it up quite clearly. You're out to pick a fight, now get lost.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 16, 2013)

NerdJr said:


> Here is what you get when you top every top for 2 and a half months You get over 50 main COLAS, it has to be tied down as shown though  Sannies Mad Shack Strain, 20 CFL, 23 watt bulbs and organic soil ( Naturally ) and in a 115 L container, this is what you will get  Be sure and get the 5400k CFL bulbs


Very nice job. I wouldn't consider those "main colas". More like many small budsites but ya done good!


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 16, 2013)

Xrangex said:


> View attachment 2527204
> 
> Used your method under a 150w HPS, thanks UB helpfull as shit!


Easy peasy, eh?


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## username1234567 (Feb 16, 2013)

UB, not sure if you missed it, but i posted a question 2 pages back, would be nice to get a answer


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 16, 2013)

username1234567 said:


> Uncle Ben,
> 
> Got a question about topping, your method above the 2nd true node causes 4 main cola's, and above 1st gives 2 cola's.
> 
> ...


Shouldn't matter, depends on the nodes. Like I explained in the first post and included photos, there are dormant buds at each NODE where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk". Your goal is to make them apical dominant, as opposed to recessive. If you have 3 opposing nodes at exactly the same point on the trunk, then you should get 3 main colas if it is the first node to top above. If they're alternating, the most dominant will be the top one, the most recessive the bottom. 

I know The Herd parrots want you to believe it's all light related and try to justify their defoliation actions based on this paradigm, but this ties into why lower buds are usually popcorn sized. They're the last to form and will be the last to get the plant's goodies, hormones, etc.

UB


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## Guitar Man (Feb 16, 2013)

Here are my plants, using UBs topping technique. The girls are 47 days old (since planting germinated seeds). Im 22 days into flowering and the plants have responded well to the top. 

The 1[SUP]st[/SUP] picture is an Indica and the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] is a Sativa. I have grown the Indica 2 times before, and the Sativa 1 time, so I have a pretty good idea where my grow has been, and where it could end up. I also keep detailed logs of each grow, so I can compare and change things as needed.

At day 19, both plants had 5-6 nodes, so I made the cut above the second node as shown in the next 2 pictures (these pictures were taken today, on day 47). As you can see, 4 main colas have developed on each plant.

Because of growing the Sativa before, I knew she liked to stretch to the heavens, so I had a plan for another top in case she decided to go after my lights like last time. Well, she did, so I topped the 2 main colas @ the 5[SUP]th[/SUP] node to calm her down on day 12 of flowering.

The top on those 2 colas has created 4 tops, and the cut did exactly what I needed to keep the canopy under control. Current plant heights: Indica, 26; Sativa, 44. Watering every 3 days, with bloom ferts every other watering. PH testing all water and runoff when needed. Using 5 gallon Smart Pots, using MG MC Soil (all right everyone, no bashing on MG Soil LOL!! I have good luck with this soil.) 

With my experience from my previous grows, the harvest of these plants will be the best of anything Ive ever done. Bud sights and colas are everywhere, and 5-6 weeks from now, I should be having TONS of FUN at chop-chop!!


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## grimeygreasy (Feb 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yeah, I'm picking it up quite clearly. You're out to pick a fight, now get lost.
> 
> UB


The only person trying to pick a fight here is you. Your demeaning tone and hostility cheapen the quality information you provide to the community. This is your thread, and you're clearly not interested in having a conversation (read: constructive criticism) so I will respectfully bow out. For the record, I would have debated this via PM with you but you have disabled that function, feel free to PM me if you have any interest in discussing the topic further.


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## Fruitbat (Feb 16, 2013)

Here is the core of this thread - To get result X use process Z

Imagine you are baking a cake. To make a specific cake you follow a specific recipe. What you are doing is changing the recipe then claiming the results will be the same when in fact they are different. 

Plus he never said you can't top a clone.


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## elkukupanda (Feb 18, 2013)

Hey UB,
I'm glad i did my homework before this thing flowered... I haven't harvest yet but i been nicking and picking, here and there and man... this plant is great... Thanks again brother, because i'm already ripping the benefits in my first grow and have a little bit more of understanding about plants.. Bless.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 18, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Hey UB,
> I'm glad i did my homework before this thing flowered... I haven't harvest yet but i been nicking and picking, here and there and man... this plant is great... Thanks again brother, because i'm already ripping the benefits in my first grow and have a little bit more of understanding about plants.. Bless.


Good, glad it's working out for you.


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## Guitar Man (Feb 21, 2013)

UB, and others on this Thread; with 4 weeks left in Flowering, I just can't believe how BEAUTIFUL my plants are right now!! UNFRICKEN BELIEVABLE! I'll be posting some mind blowing pics, soon!!


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## drew425 (Feb 21, 2013)

Guitar Man said:


> View attachment 2528045View attachment 2528047View attachment 2528050View attachment 2528053View attachment 2528056View attachment 2528058View attachment 2528060View attachment 2528061View attachment 2528062View attachment 2528063
> 
> Here are my plants, using UB&#8217;s topping technique. The girls are 47 days old (since planting germinated seeds). I&#8217;m 22 days into flowering and the plants have responded well to the top.
> 
> ...


So basically you took UB's technique and took it 1 step further and topped another cola after getting the 4 colas? So you have 7 toal now?

This is my Sativa at 32 days in 12/12. Haven't measured her in the last week but she's about 45-50" tall. I used UB's technique accidentally by dropping a light on her. At the times she was about 3 weeks old at an estimated 8-10 nodes tall but it still worked. Wish id know this before and I have topped her again as shes just getting way too big. Im not even sure how many colas I have as im not very good at counting them but it looks like at least 4


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## Guitar Man (Feb 21, 2013)

drew425 said:


> So basically you took UB's technique and took it 1 step further and topped another cola after getting the 4 colas? So you have 7 toal now?
> 
> This is my Sativa at 32 days in 12/12. Haven't measured her in the last week but she's about 45-50" tall. I used UB's technique accidentally by dropping a light on her. At the times she was about 3 weeks old at an estimated 8-10 nodes tall but it still worked. Wish id know this before and I have topped her again as shes just getting way too big. Im not even sure how many colas I have as im not very good at counting them but it looks like at least 4
> 
> View attachment 2535853




Right now, it looks like I have 6 colas instead of 4 because of the top I did to shorten the plant. 4 colas coming off of the 2 I topped, and the other 2 that I didn't have to cut. That being said, the bud activity on this plant and the other one I'm growing is just incredible!! Fucking BUD JUNGLE!! This technique is working perfectly in my closet because I have limited space.


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## elkukupanda (Feb 22, 2013)

UB,
i think i finally have an answer regarding what makes the meristem thicker... After some good readings and watching my plants closely.. I noticed that they all had something in common. Either it was the plant with a single cola... 4 big colas or a not so healthy plant... Their trunk girth was about the same size... I read some about the functions of the lateral or secondary meristem.. which is the one in charge of that type of growth and understood a little bit more about what makes a plant have a thick stem... Is not only one thing that makes the plant grow its secondary meristem thicker... The plant sensory system is #1, Environment for root growth is #2 (soil i'm assuming) #3 availability of water//water uptake and health of leaves..
Here is a paper!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3560032/

so what? am i right or am i right?


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## Guitar Man (Feb 22, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> UB, i think i finally have an answer regarding.. what makes a thick meristem... After readings and observations.. i noticed that all my plants... apical dominance... 4 big colas, not so healthy plant... all of them had something in common... that the meristem was about the same girth in all of them.... How could three plants that reacted and grew completely different to the other could have in common... then i began reading about the functions of the lateral or secondary meristem.. which is the one that pretty much regulates the growth of the meristem... understood why a plant grows in the way they do... the feeling and adjusting the plant does to the environment etc.. also importance of water uptake and the importance of root mass distribution for soil... i also found i think a beautiful piece of paper with a very interesting study that cover a lot... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3560032/
> 
> so what? am i right or am i right?


Are you saying your plants did not respond well to UB's topping technique?


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## elkukupanda (Feb 22, 2013)

I sound illiterate, don't I? ^^ Ok, i think it is readable now.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 22, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> UB,
> i think i finally have an answer regarding what makes the meristem thicker... After some good readings and watching my plants closely.. I noticed that they all had something in common. Either it was the plant with a single cola... 4 big colas or a not so healthy plant... Their trunk girth was about the same size... I read some about the functions of the lateral or secondary meristem.. which is the one in charge of that type of growth and understood a little bit more about what makes a plant have a thick stem... Is not only one thing that makes the plant grow its secondary meristem thicker... The plant sensory system is #1, Environment for root growth is #2 (soil i'm assuming) #3 availability of water//water uptake and health of leaves..
> Here is a paper!
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3560032/
> ...


Not sure. That is an exhaustive study and needs a better glance than what I'm willing to give it right now. Getting anal, looks like a fight between cytokinins and auxins regarding apical dominance.

Been practicing it for years and it's never failed me.

Just for the record, to clear things up, there have been allegations by some that are trying to twist the cause-effect.....nomenclature may be at work here too with these people. There is a big difference between getting numerous tops and inducing 2 or 4 main colas instead of the usual one that occurs with an untopped plant. It's clear to me but not all. I assume those that are confused or inexperienced and just haven't learned the subtle nuance of cannabis anatomy or development.

Good luck,
UB


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## elkukupanda (Feb 22, 2013)

I was wondering what size planting pot you use... HxW as well


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 23, 2013)

There's a lot to chew on in that article, but regarding my technique, it seems to come down to what I wrote in the first post and elsewhere:

*3.2. Auxin &#8211; An essential regulator of branching

A process fundamental to the control of axillary bud activity is apical dominance. It has long been known that the main shoot apex suppresses the outgrowth of axillary buds (Snow, 1929) and thus, apical dominance is relevant in the definition of plant architecture. Indeed, the expression of a particular growth form is linked to the degree of apical dominance. For example, some species carry a dominant primary stem, while in other species lateral branches grow similarly vigorously as the main stem and sometimes even overgrow it. These two branching habits are called excurrent and decurrent, respectively, and can easily be associated to various annual species.*


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 23, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> I sound illiterate, don't I? ^^ Ok, i think it is readable now.


Meristem is a particular tissue located in the tip of buds and roots. It's the tissue used in cloning plants in a lab. I used to grow orchids and bought many a "mericlone" or a genetically identical clone of the mother plant grown out from meristem tissue using a nutrient plate and centrifuge to induce nurture and promote asexual cell division.

Are you talking about the "trunks"?

UB


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## elkukupanda (Feb 23, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Meristem is a particular tissue located in the tip of buds and roots. It's the tissue used in cloning plants in a lab. I used to grow orchids and bought many a "mericlone" or a genetically identical clone of the mother plant grown out from meristem tissue using a nutrient plate and centrifuge to induce nurture and promote asexual cell division.
> 
> Are you talking about the "trunks"?
> 
> UB


Yes bro the sexy trunks. Sorry, I was referring to the secondary//lateral meristem... the cork cambium// vascular cambium(unless i'm a little bit off here). So i what i was saying//asking... If the main trunk girth is directly associated with root//plant growth (development).. I was wondering if the flowering pot dimension HXW could also play as one of the factors to make the trunk thicker... I'm just trying to get great results with min veg time as possible from seed... I'm dropping all kinds of HST/LST... and try to keep optimal the photosynthetic rate of my plants... but yah... that's my question...


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## elkukupanda (Feb 23, 2013)

I think now i get the point of your experiment growing that plant in a 16oz cup...


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## elkukupanda (Feb 23, 2013)

Guitar Man said:


> Are you saying your plants did not respond well to UB's topping technique?


Nope. I was not questioning his technique... it was just the same old... "what makes a trunk thick" my bad.. i was referring to the trunk as meristem.. problem corrected..


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## Guitar Man (Feb 23, 2013)

Here's an update on my plants at day 28 of flowering. Still have 4-5 weeks to go and the bud activity is the best I've ever had in my grows. 2 plants, using UB's topping technique. Plant on the left is an Indica and the one on the right is a Sativa. The Indica has 4 solid colas, with other tops coming up everywhere. The Sativa, which I had to top a second time, has 6 main colas and numerous other tops as well. So far, they are healthy and strong.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 23, 2013)

Guitar Man said:


> View attachment 2538875View attachment 2538878View attachment 2538885View attachment 2538889
> 
> Here's an update on my plants at day 28 of flowering. Still have 4-5 weeks to go and the bud activity is the best I've ever had in my grows. 2 plants, using UB's topping technique. Plant on the left is an Indica and the one on the right is a Sativa. The Indica has 4 solid colas, with other tops coming up everywhere. The Sativa, which I had to top a second time, has 6 main colas and numerous other tops as well. So far, they are healthy and strong.


Looking good!

Have fun,
Uncle Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 23, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Nope. I was not questioning his technique... it was just the same old... "what makes a trunk thick" my bad.. i was referring to the trunk as meristem.. problem corrected..


Trunk girth is more related to genetics than anything else. Sativas tend to have very weak trunks, indica tends to be stocky. Come time for you to cross your own, recommend you select parents that tend to be stocky. 

UB


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## drew425 (Feb 25, 2013)

Any experience with doing this on an auto? I think the same rule should apply?


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 25, 2013)

I know its been asked many times about additional colas if the plant has additional opposing nodes. And while garden hopping this weekend I came across this nice apical cut. It was lower on the plant so I didnt even have to beg. But did toss her a couple C99 beans. 
As you can see it has 4 opposing branches per node and I thought it would make a fun little grow for UBs topping thread. As long as he does not mind of course? As long as UB gives the ok I will document it here. Top for 4, scratch that, top for 8 main colas! Probably nothing definitive to be learned from it. But should at least help show how auxins are distributed.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 25, 2013)

drew425 said:


> Any experience with doing this on an auto? I think the same rule should apply?


Dont do it to an auto as you have no control over veg time.


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## drew425 (Feb 25, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Dont do it to an auto as you have no control over veg time.


Damn. Looks like im just going to have to pop some of my reg seeds then. I've really been wanting to try this but I've been growing mostly clones lately


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 25, 2013)

drew425 said:


> Damn. Looks like im just going to have to pop some of my reg seeds then. I've really been wanting to try this but I've been growing mostly clones lately


The plant above is a cut. Just choose your clones from the apical growth tip from a branch on the plant. Seed or cut the results should be the same if I am not mistaken.


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## drew425 (Feb 25, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> The plant above is a cut. Just choose your clones from the apical growth tip from a branch on the plant. Seed or cut the results should be the same if I am not mistaken.


From what I've read it will only work if the nodes are opposing. The one above has opposing nodes


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 25, 2013)

drew425 said:


> From what I've read it will only work if the nodes are opposing. The one above has opposing nodes


Its does have opposing nodes, two pair per to be exact and is a apical cut. Apical cuts can also have opposing nodes rather than opposing, guess its all in the timing.


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## drew425 (Feb 25, 2013)

Exactly. A lot of clones don't have opposing nodes


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 25, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> View attachment 2541857View attachment 2541859
> 
> 
> I know its been asked many times about additional colas if the plant has additional opposing nodes. And while garden hopping this weekend I came across this nice apical cut. It was lower on the plant so I didnt even have to beg. But did toss her a couple C99 beans.
> As you can see it has 4 opposing branches per node and I thought it would make a fun little grow for UBs topping thread. As long as he does not mind of course? As long as UB gives the ok I will document it here. Top for 4, scratch that, top for 8 main colas! Probably nothing definitive to be learned from it. But should at least help show how auxins are distributed.


Like I said a couple of pages back in several posts beginning with a revised FAQ copied from another site, (post #4513) I don't consider 8 outputs as being "main". But that's just me. The more you water down the apical hormones, the smaller the collective output. In the real world of plants, something has to be dominant and something has to be recessive. It's just the way plants roll. 

If you want to journal here then go for it. I already know the outcome but if you want to put in the time, it's all good.

UB


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Like I said a couple of pages back in several posts beginning with a revised FAQ copied from another site, (post #4513) I don't consider 8 outputs as being "main". But that's just me. The more you water down the apical hormones, the smaller the collective output. In the real world of plants, something has to be dominant and something has to be recessive. It's just the way plants roll.
> 
> If you want to journal here then go for it. I already know the outcome but if you want to put in the time, it's all good.
> 
> UB


I have only scanned through the many pages. My bad. I will post a pic or 2 as things go along...tops and colas...



edit: had to change my stoned spelling from pick to pic. for some reason that particular was making me crazy.


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## Guitar Man (Feb 27, 2013)

Day 35 of flowering. About 25 to go. The girls are HAPPY!


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 27, 2013)

They look it for sure. I just could not resist giving You and your garden a theme song....looking good dude.


[video=youtube;vLtl5F91w6c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLtl5F91w6c[/video]


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## Relax62 (Mar 1, 2013)

So if I want to try to achieve 4 colas, where do I need to top? Is this picture accurate?
View attachment 2549150
Also I have never had any experience with cloning would it be wise of me to wait for the 5-6th node and clone the cut off or should I just clip it now and save some time on vegging?


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## Fruitbat (Mar 4, 2013)

Snip above the 2nd true node. 

Your photo is a bit off however according to your photo you will cut above what you have marked as Node #1 and below what you are calling Node #2. 

The first true node is where that long single bladed leaf is (above the cotyledon). So where ever that leaf is will be Node #1. 

Hope that helps. Good luck!


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## Guitar Man (Mar 4, 2013)

Day #40 of flowering. Buds are really starting to swell up and the lower buds are starting to connect on the main colas.


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## Guitar Man (Mar 10, 2013)

Had to stake the plant on the right; buds are so heavy the plant was tipping. She is a Sativa, so the stems aren't quite as stout as my indica (plant on the left).


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## yankeegreen (Mar 15, 2013)

Just thought I'd add to the long list of growers giving Uncle Ben's technique a try. I topped four Mandala Seeds Beyond the Brain plants today after five weeks vegging and am hoping for the success others have shared in this thread. BTB is a mostly sativa hybrid and my hope is that this will help balance manageability and yield.

Before and after pics:


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## TsmokeTrain (Mar 16, 2013)

I do that last thing too only top at 3rd node giving it 6 main colas.
The strain is Amnesia Haze, i clone it top it and put it in my Flower Box cause it flowers 3 months +

As soon as they start to grow i pin em down with strong electrical wires cause they are coated to protect you, but can protect my plants upper skin too.
I keep on pinning them down so all the buds get light.


Peace!


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## Guitar Man (Mar 18, 2013)

Some of the buds from my chopped plants this weekend. Thanks, UB, for the awesome topping advice! This has been the best grow I have done, and I'm sure the next one will even be better!


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## drew425 (Mar 18, 2013)

Question.....so this will be my first try at UB's topping technique. From my picture posted there appears to be 4 full nodes and the 5th is opening up. Should I wait until the 5th opens up or top it now? And its right above the second true node? (It appears to me that the 2nd node is where the first larger set of fan leaves are. The first does appear to be a true node as they are exact opposites. Please if anyone could answer this I need to top soon. THanks


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 18, 2013)

The 4x4 is still around....

Going to top above the second at transplant.....




good question...


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## Guitar Man (Mar 18, 2013)

drew425 said:


> Question.....so this will be my first try at UB's topping technique. From my picture posted there appears to be 4 full nodes and the 5th is opening up. Should I wait until the 5th opens up or top it now? And its right above the second true node? (It appears to me that the 2nd node is where the first larger set of fan leaves are. The first does appear to be a true node as they are exact opposites. Please if anyone could answer this I need to top soon. THanks
> View attachment 2575241




Here's what mine looked like when I did the top. I would let yours veg a little longer to get that 5th full node.


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## Guitar Man (Mar 18, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> The 4x4 is still around....
> 
> Going to top above the second at transplant.....
> 
> ...


AS, your plant looks ready!!


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 18, 2013)

Yes Sir I do believe it is....I will be tending to that. Going to be a really fun transfer.

And my question was rhetorical..........


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## drew425 (Mar 18, 2013)

Guitar Man said:


> View attachment 2575294View attachment 2575295View attachment 2575296
> 
> Here's what mine looked like when I did the top. I would let yours veg a little longer to get that 5th full node.


But I do cut it right above the 2nd true node right?


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## drew425 (Mar 18, 2013)

Guitar Man said:


> AS, your plant looks ready!!


I agree get her out of that cup


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 18, 2013)

drew425 said:


> But I do cut it right above the 2nd true node right?


If your looking for 4 you are correct......


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 18, 2013)

drew425 said:


> I agree get her out of that cup


You think its getting root bound?


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## drew425 (Mar 19, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> If your looking for 4 you are correct......


Yes thanks bud. I just want to be sure before I go hacking up my precious baby.


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## drew425 (Mar 19, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> You think its getting root bound?


I do a shit ton of transplanting due to space and I've transplanted some plants way smaller and less beautiful than yours in the pic and IMO you need to transplant. If I really don't have the room I transplant into 1 gallon grow bags. They're easy to works with and will hold up to 1ft plant and they're super easier to transplant and dispose of. I just did a few seedlings the other day that only had 2 nodes and they already had a nice root ball and reached the bottom of the party cup


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 19, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> You think its getting root bound?


Pop it out and take a look. Won't hurt it a bit unless the rootball falls apart which I seriously doubt is gonna happen.

People, as I've shown quite a few times, it doesn't hurt to top above the 1st node to get 2 main colas. It's all relative - the lower you top the larger but fewer main colas you're gonna get. The object here is not to trick the plant OUT of producing its main cola, just more of them. The new, multiple main colas all have to become dominant regarding a plant's tendency to "settle into" apical dominance regarding its terminal leaders. It's all about training to get to where you want to go. For example, while young I HATE double or triple tops on deciduous landscape trees and conifers. Maybe when it gets up to 12' and taller, fine. But not when it's 2' tall. Just food for thought.......

Easy peasy......
Uncle Ben


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 19, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Pop it out and take a look. Won't hurt it a bit unless the rootball falls apart which I seriously doubt is gonna happen.
> 
> People, as I've shown quite a few times, it doesn't hurt to top above the 1st node to get 2 main colas. It's all relative - the lower you top the larger but fewer main colas you're gonna get. The object here is not to trick the plant OUT of producing its main cola, just more of them. The new, multiple main colas all have to become dominant regarding a plant's tendency to "settle into" apical dominance regarding its terminal leaders. It's all about training to get to where you want to go. For example, while young I HATE double or triple tops on deciduous landscape trees and conifers. Maybe when it gets up to 12' and taller, fine. But not when it's 2' tall. Just food for thought.......
> 
> ...


LOL The question was one of sarcasm.......


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## drew425 (Mar 19, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Pop it out and take a look. Won't hurt it a bit unless the rootball falls apart which I seriously doubt is gonna happen.
> 
> People, as I've shown quite a few times, it doesn't hurt to top above the 1st node to get 2 main colas. It's all relative - the lower you top the larger but fewer main colas you're gonna get. The object here is not to trick the plant OUT of producing its main cola, just more of them. The new, multiple main colas all have to become dominant regarding a plant's tendency to "settle into" apical dominance regarding its terminal leaders. It's all about training to get to where you want to go. For example, while young I HATE double or triple tops on deciduous landscape trees and conifers. Maybe when it gets up to 12' and taller, fine. But not when it's 2' tall. Just food for thought.......
> 
> ...


Thanks again!


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## drew425 (Mar 19, 2013)

TsmokeTrain said:


> I do that last thing too only top at 3rd node giving it 6 main colas.
> The strain is Amnesia Haze, i clone it top it and put it in my Flower Box cause it flowers 3 months +
> 
> As soon as they start to grow i pin em down with strong electrical wires cause they are coated to protect you, but can protect my plants upper skin too.
> ...


Have you grown A haze before? I was wondering why the hell mine is taking so long to finish. Mine is at 78 days right now. So your saying I should wait until at least 90 days plus? Up to this point I have grown mostly Indicas, I heard sativas take a long time to finish, but damnnnn


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 19, 2013)

drew425 said:


> Have you grown A haze before? I was wondering why the hell mine is taking so long to finish. Mine is at 78 days right now. So your saying I should wait until at least 90 days plus? Up to this point I have grown mostly Indicas, I heard sativas take a long time to finish, but damnnnn


Patience, or as some would say, "patients". You'll be cussin' a bit more before it's all over. Your biggest challenge is to retain those leaves as long as possible. I've had Vietnamese sativa (and Haze and other sativas) indoors go veg for months...and then you have the fun part of having that happy time repeated during flowering. Reward? Airy buds that may or not be potent. 

Sativas grow and finish based on a chronological age thingie, not a phytochrome driven thingie like your typical indica mutt. IOW, you can have a pure sativa and a indica mutt, flip to 12/12 and the mutt will respond to the hormonal change as dictated by the short day photoperiod.


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## drew425 (Mar 20, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Patience, or as some would say, "patients". You'll be cussin' a bit more before it's all over. Your biggest challenge is to retain those leaves as long as possible. I've had Vietnamese sativa (and Haze and other sativas) indoors go veg for months...and then you have the fun part of having that happy time repeated during flowering. Reward? Airy buds that may or not be potent.
> 
> Sativas grow and finish based on a chronological age thingie, not a phytochrome driven thingie like your typical indica mutt. IOW, you can have a pure sativa and a indica mutt, flip to 12/12 and the mutt will respond to the hormonal change as dictated by the short day photoperiod.


Thanks UB. My Haze is about 79days at this point. Short and stalky with about 6 good sized colas.The leaves are perfect not one yellow leaf. I don't mind waiting if the end result is good


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## mrblu (Mar 20, 2013)

anyone tried this with white widow? il be topping in a couple weeks and im trying to get an idea if i want to go for 2 or 4 or just leave it be.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 20, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Sativas grow and finish based on a chronological age thingie, not a phytochrome driven thingie like your typical indica mutt. IOW, you can have a pure sativa and a indica mutt, flip to 12/12 and the mutt will respond to the hormonal change as dictated by the short day photoperiod.



I have noticed the same thing in the past. And I figure since Sativas are equatorial in heritage and when its pretty much 12/12 12 months out of the year they have no other choice...plus its a great indicator if you have a 'true' Sativa or not.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 20, 2013)

On a side note I have decided not to top the 4x4. I saw its mother today for the first time since it has gone into flower. My cut is going all natural....

I did transplant it though and it could have stayed in the cup another week easy. Lets not get pot bound confused with root bound....


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## drew425 (Mar 20, 2013)

So if I topped at the 3rd node would I get 6 main colas? Just not sure I want to cut that much off by doing it above the 2nd.


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## drew425 (Mar 20, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Patience, or as some would say, "patients". You'll be cussin' a bit more before it's all over. Your biggest challenge is to retain those leaves as long as possible. I've had Vietnamese sativa (and Haze and other sativas) indoors go veg for months...and then you have the fun part of having that happy time repeated during flowering. Reward? Airy buds that may or not be potent.
> 
> Sativas grow and finish based on a chronological age thingie, not a phytochrome driven thingie like your typical indica mutt. IOW, you can have a pure sativa and a indica mutt, flip to 12/12 and the mutt will respond to the hormonal change as dictated by the short day photoperiod.


Im guessing you don't like growing Sativas very much. Im getting pretty impatient with mine. I've also got a Sour Diesel at 61 days im thinking it has another 15-20 to go at least


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 20, 2013)

drew425 said:


> Im guessing you don't like growing Sativas very much. Im getting pretty impatient with mine. I've also got a Sour Diesel at 61 days im thinking it has another 15-20 to go at least


I've probably grown more sativas indoors than any one. My experience has shown they belong outdoors, which is where I put them now.

UB


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## drew425 (Mar 20, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> My experience has shown they belong outdoors, which is where I put them now.
> 
> UB


Im starting to think that too


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## a mongo frog (Mar 20, 2013)

Please tell me this little whore is going to give me 4 mains. Looks like it should.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 21, 2013)

a mongo frog said:


> View attachment 2579406
> Please tell me this little whore is going to give me 4 mains. Looks like it should.


Uhhhhhhhh, no, as discussed a hundred times in this thread.


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## drew425 (Mar 21, 2013)

drew425 said:


> So if I topped at the 3rd node would I get 6 main colas? Just not sure I want to cut that much off by doing it above the 2nd.


Bump. Anyone?? If not ill just snip one nod lower since I already topped at the 3rd


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 21, 2013)

drew425 said:


> Bump. Anyone?? If not ill just snip one nod lower since I already topped at the 3rd


3 nodes you just get 6 tops, not main colas.........


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## drew425 (Mar 21, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> 3 nodes you just get 6 tops, not main colas.........


 So no main colas........hmmmmmm


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## garj353 (Mar 22, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You pinch out the top on a young seedling, let the 4 new "trunks" aka main colas grow out a bit and THEN flower. Why the rush to flower unless they are growing 3" a day and you don't have the headroom to accomodate large plants?
> 
> UB


I chose to cut mine above the 4th true node and remove the bottom 2 nodes thus still leaving 4 main tops. Do you think this makes a difference whether its 2 bottom nodes or 2 higher nodes that is left? I chose to leave the healthiest most uniform 2 nodes instead of the first 2. They look exactly the same as your method but just 2 nodes higher on the stem with the bottom lollipopped. My opinion is I wouldn't think it matters as long as their are 2 nodes and 4 shoots left (and ofcourse the leaves that are parallel with those nodes). What do you think?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 22, 2013)

garj353 said:


> I chose to cut mine above the 4th true node and remove the bottom 2 nodes thus still leaving 4 main tops. Do you think this makes a difference whether its 2 bottom nodes or 2 higher nodes that is left? I chose to leave the healthiest most uniform 2 nodes instead of the first 2. They look exactly the same as your method but just 2 nodes higher on the stem with the bottom lollipopped. My opinion is I wouldn't think it matters as long as their are 2 nodes and 4 shoots left (and ofcourse the leaves that are parallel with those nodes). What do you think?


You don't remove "nodes". They are a point on a plant where the leaf petiole is attached. Do some research on anatomy people. I've seen this reference before in this thread.

2nd, if you don't get output from the 2 lower nodes than you'll get the proper results. If you have already lost or pulled those fan leaves it suggests you need to go back to the basics and learn what makes a plant tick.


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## garj353 (Mar 22, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You don't remove "nodes". They are a point on a plant where the leaf petiole is attached. Do some research on anatomy people. I've seen this reference before in this thread.
> 
> 2nd, if you don't get output from the 2 lower nodes than you'll get the proper results. If you have already lost or pulled those fan leaves it suggests you need to go back to the basics and learn what makes a plant tick.


 I know about plants maybe you just dont understand what I mean, so i may be explaining it wrong. To make it simple my plant looks just like yours. But instead of keeping the first 2 branches above the seedling leaves I removed them and kept the next 4. I know you don't remove "nodes" that would be dumb I didn't mean it like that. Simple explanation, I topped my plant which left 6 opposite branches from 3 nodes(visualize it). I then removed the 2 lowest branches which left 4 branches and 2 nodes= your method for 4 colas, I just went a node higher on the plant, so instead of using the 1st and 2nd I used the 2nd and 3rd. I dont know how to explain it better than that. I dont even know why I'm asking this its obvious the auxins will divert to the 4 branches I have left as long as I removed any other branches under it. You do it the same exept you use the first 2 nodes so you have no need to remove any lower branches because all thats under it is seedling leaves. I cant upload my pics(?) but if you saw it you would know what I mean. You may think I don't get what you mean but I do. I was just asking as long as you leave 2 nodes and 4 branches and the 4 fan leaves associated with those 2 nodes, it shouldn't matter which nodes you use, as long as the branches are opposite and not alternating. I just thought since this is your method you would of tried that at least once. I chose to try it this way because my 2nd and 3rd nodes looked very healthy, uniform, they will probably grow to equal heights. They actually are already recovering in less than 24 hrs , and as I said lmao its your method i just removed the 1st 2 branches on the 1st node and used my 2nd and 3rd nodes branches to mimic your method instead of the 1st and the 2nd. I hope I was more clearer this time. I know plants in general. I know redirecting auxins to cytokins (spelling sucks) removing apical dominance so forgive my explaining. I really was just looking for an opinion or if you tried it that way before. Anyone know what I mean can chime in if you tried it this way because i don't see a difference unless the lower 2 branches decide to grow back but it shouldn't if its removed correctly  lol yes it worked heres a pic you can see my plants are healthy and i like using the 2nd and 3rd node because those first node leaves are single bladed i think ill get more energy to the branches this way Barneys g13 haze, seedsman ww, Blimburn orka= wwxhaze


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## indicantonio (Mar 23, 2013)

Thank you so much Uncle Ben. Followed you're Advice I'm still in my first week of flower I couldn't be happier with the four colas.
View attachment 2583271View attachment 2583272View attachment 2583273View attachment 2583274


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## yankeegreen (Mar 23, 2013)

Now that's a pretty girl!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 24, 2013)

indicantonio said:


> Thank you so much Uncle Ben. Followed you're Advice I'm still in my first week of flower I couldn't be happier with the four colas.
> View attachment 2583271View attachment 2583272View attachment 2583273View attachment 2583274


Yep, that is one healthy girl and looks like all four "trunks" will be dominant. Sometimes the lower ones become a bit recessive, aren't quite as vigorous as the upper 2 trunks aka colas but those internodes are so small I think you can expect excellent results. All colas look quite uniform, and that's what you want. Now....if you go using bloom foods and/or gimmicks all bets are off. 

See you using SmartPots....good call! I use Dr. Whitcomb's RootBuilder product for other tropicals I'm growing in a greenhouse. Works great. Nice thing about that product is it comes in a 105' roll so you can cut panels to make any size pot you want. Good to see you finish them out in those pots.

UB


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## drew425 (Mar 26, 2013)

indicantonio said:


> Thank you so much Uncle Ben. Followed you're Advice I'm still in my first week of flower I couldn't be happier with the four colas.
> View attachment 2583271View attachment 2583272View attachment 2583273View attachment 2583274


Looks like you cut right at the second node instead of above it?


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## drew425 (Mar 26, 2013)

Any idea on if how many colas ill be getting? I didn't top above the 2nd node but above the 3rd node (or so I thought) I think it might have actually been the 2nd (true) node cause it looks like ill get 4 main colas. Anyhow at 3 weeks shes looking good


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## Reaallynow (Apr 10, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> This is a better shot of the 4 main colas hanging to cure, sans the smaller side branches which I cured laying 'em out on hardware cloth. These colas were so heavy (and long) that they laid the plant over until I could stake it up. Of course sativa trunks/stems aren't very strong to begin with. I should have used a large tomato cage.
> 
> Tio


effing wow. nice work. doing this next grow with my Super Lemon Haze.

+ Rep


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## budman111 (Apr 15, 2013)

drew425 said:


> Any idea on if how many colas ill be getting? I didn't top above the 2nd node but above the 3rd node (or so I thought) I think it might have actually been the 2nd (true) node cause it looks like ill get 4 main colas. Anyhow at 3 weeks shes looking goodView attachment 2587359View attachment 2587360View attachment 2587361



Looks like 3 to me


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## hyroot (Apr 18, 2013)

I read this whole thing over the last few days. So what I get is you are growing 2 mains and 2 secondaries. And laterals off the mains and secondaries where the lower 2 secondaries produce less than the 2 mains. Why not just mainline to have all main colas and everything is the same size and more of an even canopy. My 2¢


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## Alexander Supertramp (Apr 19, 2013)

hyroot said:


> I read this whole thing over the last few days. So what I get is you are growing 2 mains and 2 secondaries. And laterals off the mains and secondaries where the lower 2 secondaries produce less than the 2 mains. Why not just mainline to have all main colas and everything is the same size and more of an even canopy. My 2¢


Because mainlining gives you 8 TOPS not 8 main colas. Mainlining has little or no effect on auxin transfer. UBs method has science and botany on its side. Mainlining is just physical manipulation of the plant kinda like bonzi.


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## shvantz (Apr 19, 2013)

my plants are 3 weeks and the bottom leaves are browning with spots, i plan on doing uncle bens topping at the 2 node where the infected looking leaves are. will the browning leaves screw up the topping? I plan on topping at 5 nods high. Please help me


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## hyroot (Apr 19, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Because mainlining gives you 8 TOPS not 8 main colas. Mainlining has little or no effect on auxin transfer. UBs method has science and botany on its side. Mainlining is just physical manipulation of the plant kinda like bonzi.


Mainlining gives you all and only colas unless you lollipop them. It makes it so the auxins / hormones distribute evenly through out the plant so every cola is equal. This topping method is based on an article in a magazine by some grower who figured it out on accident.. mainling has been in magazines too. Weed world and high times. Neither method was thought up in a lab.


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## Sir.Ganga (Apr 20, 2013)

This is a very good technique if you actually are not concerned about adding time to your vegging schedule. People with smaller grows or single plants should impliment this because an extra week or two is no big deal, but for the larger growers it is not cost effective over the course of a year. The time you loose on every crop could actually bring in another crop.

This was one of the first techniques used on cannabis to increase yeild. I think it was the early 80's when this was a popular way for better yeilds, but since, other techniques have been found to increase yeild and not increase timelines. One gooe example of this is lollipopping. Topping your girl once at the right time(usually 10-14 days before flower) will also vastly increase your yeild but it does not increase your veg or flower time.

Personally I no longer use this 4 cola thing, there are better ways to increase your yeild...overall.


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## hbizz21 (Apr 22, 2013)

Uncle Ben,

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and this technique. I've topped 3 of my current plants above the 2nd node. This is the first plant I cut and 24 hours later.



And my 2 other plants:


I will be updating now and again. Hopefully they all respond well!


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## Samwell Seed Well (Apr 22, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Because mainlining gives you 8 TOPS not 8 main colas. Mainlining has little or no effect on auxin transfer. UBs method has science and botany on its side. Mainlining is just physical manipulation of the plant kinda like bonzi.


by weekly defoliation does the same thing . . . . . .. . but there's no thread to claim of fame from commercial agricultural 

or gas lantern technique, or many others the claim to fame in thread is more tops . . . not atypical auxin distribution do to Topping early

which i should say is strain dependent on symmetry and growth characteristics by no means a generalization 


the method is the method , lets not assign names to tried and true commercial agricultural tech. . .. carry on, with your blinders discussion


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## budman111 (Apr 22, 2013)

shvantz said:


> my plants are 3 weeks and the bottom leaves are browning with spots,


sounds like a possible calcium deficiency, water with a little calmag.


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## shvantz (Apr 22, 2013)

Okay what is calmg tho can i buy that somewhere? I always see reference to it but i dont really know what it means.


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## budman111 (Apr 27, 2013)

shvantz said:


> Okay what is calmg tho can i buy that somewhere? I always see reference to it but i dont really know what it means.


Calmag is a essentially a bottle with calcium and magnesium and most manufacturers usually add something else like iron and so on. 

It is added to most base fertilizers but sometimes more is needed. I use grotek's:

http://www.grotek.net/en/products/product.aspx?id=16


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## hbizz21 (Apr 30, 2013)

UB,

Here is the first plant I tried topping for 4 main colas. The plant had 6 nodes producing a 7th when topped. This picture is day 21 of veg, 8 days after the top.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 30, 2013)

Looks good!


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## Nocturnal1 (May 1, 2013)

About to top my babies for 4, but before I do the cut I want to quadruple check, I have done it before but I'm being paranoid(I did it 2 yrs ago  ) I know not to top above the coytel-whatever leaf lol. But above that are 2 leafsets but not full on fan leaves, just single point ones. But they do have growth at the nodes, so would that be the first true node? Just wanna make sure.


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## yankeegreen (May 1, 2013)

Nocturnal1 said:


> About to top my babies for 4, but before I do the cut I want to quadruple check, I have done it before but I'm being paranoid(I did it 2 yrs ago  ) I know not to top above the coytel-whatever leaf lol. But above that are 2 leafsets but not full on fan leaves, just single point ones. But they do have growth at the nodes, so would that be the first true node? Just wanna make sure.


Correct. The node above the cotyledon with single leaf is the first true node. The node above that is the 2nd true node - top above that one. GL!


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## shvantz (May 1, 2013)

Got fhe calmg my girls look better then ever the 4 main colas are starting to take shape thanks!


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## budman111 (May 3, 2013)

Nocturnal1 said:


> About to top my babies for 4, but before I do the cut I want to quadruple check, I have done it before but I'm being paranoid(I did it 2 yrs ago  ) I know not to top above the coytel-whatever leaf lol. But above that are 2 leafsets but not full on fan leaves, just single point ones. But they do have growth at the nodes, so would that be the first true node? Just wanna make sure.


And make sure the nodes alternate too.


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## yankeegreen (May 3, 2013)

budman111 said:


> And make sure the nodes alternate too.


Unless I fundamentally misunderstood the thread and theory behind it, you DO NOT want alternating nodes. You want parallel nodes. Somebody check me on this please!


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## Uncle Ben (May 3, 2013)

yankeegreen said:


> Unless I fundamentally misunderstood the thread and theory behind it, you DO NOT want alternating nodes. You want parallel nodes. Somebody check me on this please!


You are correct. You have to take much of RIU with a grain of sand.


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## yankeegreen (May 3, 2013)

Psheww! Thanks for the sanity check!


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## NerdJr (May 6, 2013)

Uncle, there are 50 main colas that are 6 inches to 18 inches, 3 weeks into flower as we speak


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## The2TimEr (May 6, 2013)

my recent topping / fimming adventure, 1 week into flower  the plant back right was a mutant seedling and is noticably smaller than the rest with less vigour.


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## budro008 (May 7, 2013)

Hello, I am a noob that doesnt even have a seed in the ground yet, but waiting to do some homework for a month or so before starting to (hopefully) save time (and frustration) in the end. I have read Ed Rosenthal's book on MJ Horticulture, and the first 106 pages of this thread as well as been lurking RIU for a couple of years now. 

I have a couple of ?'s that I have not seen asked yet and wondering if anyone knows the answer: 
1. Why is it necessary to slowly increase pot size / encourage a slight amount of root spin before "up-potting"? In nature, when a seed starts out, isnt it be in the largest possible pot ever created?

2. UB, do have any threads dedicated to nutrients and timing of their use? I know you are against "bloom foods"?

3. UB, could you explain in more detail about your 'move-able' side panels for your indoor grows and possibly show a few pics/explain how to make them?

4. Does anyone know of any good threads/ideas on how to make a good soil mix that is less complicated/doesnt include "50" different ingredients?

5. General philosophy ? regarding MJ growing: I hear a lot of people talk about trying to reproduce nature but, ultimately, are we actually really _not_ trying to duplicate nature but really just the *most *ideal conditions that an MJ plant could ever want? It seems to me that most people's soil mix, nutrient/watering schedule, tilling of soil mix, and true light schedule, literally would never occur naturally at all..

This is my first post so thanks to all!


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## Uncle Ben (May 7, 2013)

budro008, welcome to the thread. Before making your first post, it is common courtesy to those who have covered your topics many times to lurk and use the search feature. Thanks

....and just for your info folks, I just got a malware threat while clicking on this particular page which oddly came up with this link: http://erem.bescomputer.com/9.jpg I use Avast which is really good about picking up malware threats.

Just a heads up.


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## The2TimEr (May 11, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> ....and just for your info folks, I just got a malware threat while clicking on this particular page which oddly came up with this link: http://erem.bescomputer.com/9.jpg I use Avast which is really good about picking up malware threats.
> 
> Just a heads up.


You just opened the thread and were hit with this? really strange, never known that to happen before. 
I'm not enjoying these ads all over the pages now though.
here are the ladies last night 1 week 5 days since the first hairs, i could have vegged a little longer now it seems but they look happy enough.



smidge on my phone camera left side


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## dudeman222 (May 13, 2013)

I had a ph problem at first (hydrotron... it always does this no matter what I do), anyway,

my first node leaves are way shriveled (not the coty, the real leaves) and the second node is 6/10

I wanted to top to get four, but now I'm kind of scared, will it work even if the leaves have some ph damage?


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## NerdJr (May 14, 2013)

View attachment 2655501View attachment 2655502View attachment 2655503View attachment 2655504View attachment 2655505View attachment 2655506View attachment 2655507View attachment 2655508View attachment 2655509View attachment 2655510View attachment 2655511View attachment 2655512View attachment 2655513View attachment 2655514View attachment 2655515View attachment 2655516View attachment 2655517View attachment 2655518View attachment 2655519View attachment 2655520View attachment 2655521*Sannies Mad Shack, should get about a LB. of fine sweet Ladies, right at 4 weeks flowering with 6 more to go, Sativa dominat, Indica density she is a perfect hybrid




















Roughly 600 watts of CFL's all around the plant*


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## budman111 (May 14, 2013)

NerdJr said:


> * Roughly 600 watts of CFL's all around the plant*[/B]


Thats a lot of Watts for CFL.


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## llewxamtkram (May 15, 2013)

Does it make any difference whether the leaves of the bottom two nodes suffer from insect damage?


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## Uncle Ben (May 16, 2013)

llewxamtkram said:


> Does it make any difference whether the leaves of the bottom two nodes suffer from insect damage?


No. You've lost your carbos factory though.


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## MonkeyGrinder (May 16, 2013)

Hi there Uncle Ben. Guerrilla guy here. Using your 4top method
I read up on your thread over the winter. I was trying to figure out a low maintenance way to increase my weight at harvest. This method seems to be my best bet on things I won't be every day to LST them etc. I ended up topping some of my freebies from Herbie's. Kerala X Skunk#1 just last night. Waiting to top the rest of them while the 5th node leaves get just a little bit bigger (the 6th is barely visible) Have 8 Big Bombs, 7 THC Bombs, and some random other freebies to do as well. The Bombs will be ready within a week.
I took the entire top parts that were cut and I'm currently attempting to root them. Which I'll be doing with the rest of them. This is also my very first adventure in cloning =) (you had said it could be done no problem a million pages ago)
After they're done and the new tops start rolling in on all of them they'll be going out into their homes in ground for the summer. The cool part is they're still in big solo cups and doing fine so I can use this method in the future and keep them as mobile as possible for transplant (On the strains I'm doing anyways. They're not rootbound yet but close to it)
I just wanted to give you a big thanks for putting all of this info on here. It's pretty much a godsend for people who aren't able to go out and mess with putting strings, sticks, hoops and hooks on our plants every other day. Not to mention if the cuttings take root that's just an added bonus. I was planning on doing the same thing to the cuttings and having them put out as well. So maybe I'll get 2 big rounds out in lots of places. If I get to a 3rd I'll just be seeding them.
Anything that adds to harvest for us Guerrillas rocks. Between hunters, animals, storms and choppers we're playing the game on hard mode as it is.
One thing is that happened on accident but it helped out was this. Before I got to top them there was a small security risk with where my babies in cups were so I had to move them. Ended up having to put them in a very shady area for 3 days while I put together spot where they'd get full sun all day. They ended up stretching between the 1st 2nd and 3rd nodes quite a bit due to not getting direct sun. Between the 2nd and 3rd node was what helped because it gave a lot of stem room to stick in rooting powder and throw in a Jiffy Pellet. Where as it was all tight in between the 2nd and 3rd node before.
But yeah thanks UB.


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## Uncle Ben (May 17, 2013)

MonkeyGrinder said:


> Hi there Uncle Ben. Guerrilla guy here. Using your 4top method...
> I just wanted to give you a big thanks for putting all of this info on here. It's pretty much a godsend for people who aren't able to go out and mess with putting strings, sticks, hoops and hooks on our plants every other day. Not to mention if the cuttings take root that's just an added bonus. I was planning on doing the same thing to the cuttings and having them put out as well. So maybe I'll get 2 big rounds out in lots of places. If I get to a 3rd I'll just be seeding them.
> But yeah thanks UB.


Howdy, you're welcome. Easy peasy, eh? Glad it's working out for you and good luck with the outdoor grow. Mother nature is brutal!

UB


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## TrichomeBob (May 17, 2013)

Oh m god, i to to page 5 and its unbelievable the amount of people that go round spreading information that's wrong, my comment isn't necessarily aimed at the OP, but some things he says aren't correct, he says ou must top above second node, but most of his pics he shows the plant topped higher, with lower nodes chopped off.

you can get 4 main colas but topping pretty much anywhere, yes doing it in certain place, can spread the hormones quicker but saying u have to do it this way is wrong.
i grow all my plants with 4 main branches, cut off every other node as the way I veg, the 4 mains will produce secondaries. I usually top at earliest convince, but sometimes I leave 4/5th nodes, I even left 2/7th nodes, they still produce main branches, but generally using 2/3 or 3/4th is Quickest just for the fact they haven't grown as much.

also lollipopping is not just growing a cola on a stick, like someone said, its basically growing the plant to a sort of bush with the first branches starting at nodes 5 or higher, the reason this is done, is to create circulation beneath the plant and also makes it easy to water and inspect fittings, it was popular bak in the day by large dutch breeders growing on tables.

Thats all for today children, school starts again next term!

i wish people would jus shut up if they don't know what their talkin about, that's why u can never find out a single answer on the net, u get about 50 people's versions!


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## Alexander Supertramp (May 17, 2013)

Hey Bob you should certainly take your own advice...just as soon as you get you foot out of your mouth.


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## Kite High (May 17, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Hey Bob you should certainly take your own advice...just as soon as you get you foot out of your mouth.


psst...dont be a stranger


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## Born Again Vegan (May 17, 2013)

Hey UB and all the people that have contributed to this thread, a massive thank you. To all the haters, grow some balls and act like men so we can have a discussion, until then fcuk off take your snivelling elsewhere.

UB et al, thanks again for sharing your knowledge. Over a year ago since I first lurked on this site and found this thread. 
My experience of this technique has been phenomenal. Blue cheese, cheese, Mango, Medicine Man, Black Jack, NYCD all put out 2/3 or 4 colas. The only one that refused and stuck to one cola was Orange Bud. 
I had two colas on a Med Man 3'6" tall, with 3oz of solid organic bud all the way down. The Mango's took the biscuit though with two colas at 4' and fatter than my head. 
I grow with biobizz soil and nutes with some GaunoKalong mixed in. With your technique I'm literally matching the hydro boyz and beating them, really making them think about organics lol.
Anyways, keep green. UB is a God in my house
Respect


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## Uncle Ben (May 18, 2013)

Born Again Vegan said:


> Hey UB and all the people that have contributed to this thread, a massive thank you. To all the haters, grow some balls and act like men so we can have a discussion, until then fcuk off take your snivelling elsewhere.
> Respect


Guy's just another RIU idiot. Pay him no mind. Glad I could help.

UB


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## Jubag420 (May 19, 2013)

Topped mine once & Got four tops  View attachment 2663506 Saafe


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## MonkeyGrinder (May 22, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy, you're welcome. Easy peasy, eh? Glad it's working out for you and good luck with the outdoor grow. Mother nature is brutal!
> 
> UB


Extremely easy. It's something that'll work for me I know that. That's what counts in the end. 
Just so you know the Kerala x Skunks have exploded where the new branch growth is. Like you said you'll see a response within 24 hours. The next evening I went to check on them. The secondary branch leaves were flaring up in all 4 places. By the day after they had started their growth. Right now as we speak each branch has popped off 4 nodes worth of growth and I can see the 5th about to pop on the ends. That's just in one weeks time. I had given them a good feeding about 3 days prior to topping. Probably a little too much because I didn't fry em with N but the leaves got a bit dark throughout the plant. The node production on the branches has completely blown me away though. It's easily doubled it's plant mass as to what it was prior to topping em and I removed a good 60% of it. I finished all the THC Bombs and Big Bombs over the last 2 nights. Also did 3 Skunk#1s, 2 Sour Diesels and waiting to do 5 Royal Cheeses (those things are being so slow)
They're all doing exactly what they're supposed to. By this time next week They'll be in the ground and vegging on sunny mountain sides until late August. Then it's flowering time. I'm totally leaving them alone after this. I might attempt to do some heavy stress training on each of the new branches between the 1st node and the main stalk. I'm super excited man 
The only thing that'll make it better is if the cut portions root and I get some more girls to go in the ground. Ima cross my fingers on that one.


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## mackelby (Jun 5, 2013)

I have been reading the thread for a couple hours, being the newbie that I am a picture of the plant before the cut above the 2nd node would be nice. Would like to be sure before I pull the trigger. Plants are about 3 weeks old. Ready to try.Or maybe point me to thread that has such a picture.


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## budman111 (Jun 6, 2013)

mackelby said:


> a picture of the plant before the cut above the 2nd node would be nice.


Check every other pic of a plant on this site then.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jun 6, 2013)

mackelby said:


> I have been reading the thread for a couple hours, being the newbie that I am a picture of the plant before the cut above the 2nd node would be nice. Would like to be sure before I pull the trigger. Plants are about 3 weeks old. Ready to try.Or maybe point me to thread that has such a picture.


 ..........


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## Guitar Man (Jun 6, 2013)

mackelby said:


> I have been reading the thread for a couple hours, being the newbie that I am a picture of the plant before the cut above the 2nd node would be nice. Would like to be sure before I pull the trigger. Plants are about 3 weeks old. Ready to try.Or maybe point me to thread that has such a picture.




Easy, cheesy.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jun 6, 2013)

Guitar Man said:


> View attachment 2688370View attachment 2688371
> 
> Easy, cheesy.


Japanesey.....


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## mackelby (Jun 6, 2013)

Thanks for diagram! Never topped before, so needless to say I am a little anxious cutting on something so beatiful. I will do 1 tonite. Note to self, I can do this!!!


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## mackelby (Jun 6, 2013)

Okay, its over, I did it.


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## doujadaze (Jun 8, 2013)

Well i have read through this thread and the others from you Tweaks and Pointers, Chemical Pruning, and have absorbed to much information to not say thanks so thank you Uncle Ben and also to all the other who have contributed information,articles and book recommendations. I appreciate the no nonsense no bullshit approach. I cant say how many time i have read the same question over and over and yet most the time you still take time to respond. IT IS APPRECIATED. I have used your techniques and am seeing major improvement in my girls. I am treating them just as i am my vegetables and wow. Never have had my leaves this green as i to fell for the Nutrient propaganda. Was using fox farm nutes with a wacked out NPK that of course the guy at the hydro shop said was the best so went ahead and switched over to dyna gro and jacks and nothing but improvements. Thanks for the recomendations. Also used your topping method on my girls and seeing extensive new growth so excited to see how they come out. So you get the point i owe you a thanks for all the information you have given over the years. It is appreciated once again thanks


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## Impman (Jun 9, 2013)

With all due respect to Uncle Ben, I'm a noob to growing weed, but I have worked in agriculture my whole life. Every grower I have met/done business with 'thins' their crop. Whether it be cherries, plums, almonds, olives, grapes. Thinning will help the tree produce bigger fruit. Thinning is used by the best botanists in the world here in the Calfornia valley. Why do you think botanists/growers do not thin their crops? You are misinformed on this bit of information. Maybe this is different for marijuana? I do not have a degree but I do have hundreds of hours working with growers (fruit crop, not weed).


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 9, 2013)

Impman said:


> With all due respect to Uncle Ben, I'm a noob to growing weed, but I have worked in agriculture my whole life. Every grower I have met/done business with 'thins' their crop. Whether it be cherries, plums, almonds, olives, grapes. Thinning will help the tree produce bigger fruit. Thinning is used by the best botanists in the world here in the Calfornia valley. Why do you think botanists/growers do not thin their crops? You are misinformed on this bit of information. Maybe this is different for marijuana? I do not have a degree but I do have hundreds of hours working with growers (fruit crop, not weed).


You're off topic here. Get with the program.

UB


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## jrainman (Jun 9, 2013)

uncle ben said:


> you're off topic here. Get with the program.
> 
> Ub


agree


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jun 11, 2013)

Impman said:


> With all due respect to Uncle Ben, I'm a noob to growing weed, but I have worked in agriculture my whole life. Every grower I have met/done business with 'thins' their crop. Whether it be cherries, plums, almonds, olives, grapes. Thinning will help the tree produce bigger fruit. Thinning is used by the best botanists in the world here in the Calfornia valley. Why do you think botanists/growers do not thin their crops? You are misinformed on this bit of information. Maybe this is different for marijuana? I do not have a degree but I do have hundreds of hours working with growers (fruit crop, not weed).


Not only off topic but a horrible comparison. Deciduous trees and perennial vines to annuals? Wow...


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## beginner420 (Jun 12, 2013)

So if you have 6 nodes and you cut just above the second node leaving 4 nodes could you use the cutting as a clone?


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## yankeegreen (Jun 12, 2013)

Absolutely.


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## brotherjericho (Jun 12, 2013)

Its amazing that such a simple technique has generated 468 pages!


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## beginner420 (Jun 12, 2013)

So I'm confused on where to cut do you leave the plant with 4 nodes or should the cutting have 4 nodes?


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 13, 2013)

Head's up! 1,000 W digital ballast and super HPS for $145 shipped. Other wattages cheaper. Woot deals are one day only or until sold out. I've bought a bunch of great stuff from them.

http://tools.woot.com/offers/ipower-grow-light-ballast-build-your-own-kit#read-more


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## beginner420 (Jun 13, 2013)

Does anyone have a pic of where you could cut for the 4 top method


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## doujadaze (Jun 13, 2013)

beginner420 said:


> Does anyone have a pic of where you could cut for the 4 top method


Have you read through this thread? Maybe the first couple pages? Or i think i even saw a wonderful picture on the page before this. So Read.


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## ShazMo09 (Jun 13, 2013)

So, if I top above the 3rd or 4th node, I wont get the same effect as topping above the 2nd? Or am I wrong here? I read a fair few pages but sooo many people put their 2 cents in and then someone else comes in sayin they are wrong and so on...


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## ShazMo09 (Jun 13, 2013)

My questions stems from the situation with my oldest plant. It is 2 weeks older than my other 2 but I messed up really early and burnt the first set of true leaves.This was 3 and 1/2 after breaking groundView attachment 2698545
2 weeks later it has seemed to bounce back ok as growth started speeding right up but the first couple nodes dont seem to be doing much at all. Im worried that when it comes time to top because I have to pinch above the second (stunted) node it may affect it negatively.
View attachment 2698548View attachment 2698549View attachment 2698550View attachment 2698551
What do you think UncleBen? Will I be able to top these no worries? As the plant seems to be bouncing back quite well compared to the first 3 and a half weeks of growth.


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## Bertha79 (Jun 13, 2013)

View attachment 2698559


brotherjericho said:


> Its amazing that such a simple technique has generated 468 pages!


Take a look at this


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## beginner420 (Jun 14, 2013)

Thanks man that was really helpful


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jun 14, 2013)

You now why its called fimming? Cause its topping gone wrong or another words, Fuck I Missed or FIM for short. That was a informative picture but has nothing too do with UBs method.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 14, 2013)

brotherjericho said:


> Its amazing that such a simple technique has generated 468 pages!


And some folks still don't get it. Wonder if they dress themselves in the morning?


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## Sir.Ganga (Jun 14, 2013)

This older technique works really well, the drawback to topping early like this, additional time in veg. redistribution of the auxins (a class of plant hormones) at this early stage does allow you to produce more colas but it add over a week or two to your veg stage, if you want to take full advantage of this topping technique. Playing with the hormone pool that early can also cause internal issues with the plant. From this original technique there has been some major advancements in topping. Early 90's was where it was found out that NOT topping your plants until they are fully mature does the same thing without missing a beat or loosing time, you may not produce colas but the weight gain is the same. If time is critical do a little side by side test, by the time your ready to flower you will see how far behind the one plant is. Topping your plants 7-10 days(strains vary)before flower has similar results but your girls don't stress as much and the result is a canopy of even soldiers.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 14, 2013)

^ ^ ^



Uncle Ben said:


> And some folks still don't get it. Wonder if they dress themselves in the morning?


I rest my case.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jun 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> ^ ^ ^
> 
> 
> 
> I rest my case.


Do yourself a favor UB and put Sir Trolls Alot on ignore. The guy is a total ass wipe.


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## beginner420 (Jun 14, 2013)

Ok well the only thing that confuses me about ub's method is whether there should be 2 or 4 nodes left on the plant cause if you have six nodes and you cut above the second one that seems like a lot to cut off the plant


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## jbrown3 (Jun 14, 2013)

Ya seriously, why should you wait till 6 nodes to cut the second node?


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## doujadaze (Jun 14, 2013)

^^. Read! As he explains it numerous times in this thread. Use the cut off as a clone. It's not a waste.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 14, 2013)

jbrown3 said:


> Ya seriously, why should you wait till 6 nodes to cut the second node?


I explained in the first post. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get.html


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## jbrown3 (Jun 14, 2013)

damn bro chill, stoner mistake...


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## brotherjericho (Jun 14, 2013)

Nevermind.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 15, 2013)

jbrown3 said:


> damn bro chill, stoner mistake...


No mistake, you just took the lazy way out. Look, I put a lot of time to help tards like you and if you can't or won't bother to at least read the first post, much less the first page, then you need not waste members' time. STOP asking questions when the answers have been given over and over again people. LURK!

UB


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## MADVILLAIN.CA (Jun 15, 2013)

watching a video aND dude says never top more that twice? some people say they top a bunch right? soo....

also I was wondering if I should top a plant that is already under LST and what are the benefits because arent the side branched already going to become tops?


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## prosperian (Jun 15, 2013)

Thanks UB. Topped last night along with four others. Pic is 10 hours later, still looking perky.


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## beginner420 (Jun 15, 2013)

So I topped last night and since I was confused about it all being my first time ever, I fimmed 2, I did what I think ub 's method is to 2 of them and I just topped one normally. The cuttings I took from UB's method I tried to make clones with, I dipped them in a water diluted nutrient solution to wet the stem and dipped them in plant prod rooting powder and stuck them each in a plastic cup with soil. Today the leaves are lumping over could this just be stress on the plants or are they dying?


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## Impman (Jun 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You're off topic here. Get with the program.
> 
> UB


*

'This is the same principle used by fruit orchard managers who create an open vase profile for their trees in order to increase production.'

I use to like reading your shit but you and your followers are funny. You think you know all this shit about growing fruit trees? Growers use grafting mostly to get the production they need. IT is RARE to see a grower who just Pruned or topped. Mostly all GRAFTED.​Trees are also 'thinned' during the spring to increase fruit size. Im wayyyyy off topic right Uncle Chester
​

*


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## Impman (Jun 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben makes multiple comparisons to Fruit trees, vine trees, and marijuana. I did not just come up with this shit on the fly... TO whomever the Uncle Ben follower that mentioned it.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 16, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Not only off topic but a horrible comparison. Deciduous trees and perennial vines to annuals? Wow...


Yep, absolutely no relationship, just another newbie chest beater that's getting confused. You can't mix up, lump together, fruit growing and the techniques used by commercial growers with my technique. Hell, they're not even in the same family....one's an annual the other perennial.

Another RIU troll that needs help dressing in the morning. 

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 16, 2013)

Impman said:


> *'This is the same principle used by fruit orchard managers who create an open vase profile for their trees in order to increase production.'
> 
> Your a fucking dick dude. I use to like reading your shit but you and your followers are ass holes.*


Ya think?

BTW, it's "you're", not "your".

Uh...... what's a "vine tree"?



> You think you know all this shit about growing fruit trees?


Sure do. Been growing, training, pruning, thinning thousands for over 40 years, and that includes my commercial vineyard. Wanna learn some VSP tips? You do know what VSP is, don't you? 



> Growers use grafting mostly to get the production they need.


We (fruit growers) use grafting to pair the rootstock with the soil profile and structure such that the scion can best utilize the applied water and soil elements. For instance, after a year of studying, I selected 1103 Paulsen for my grape rootstock. Betcha can't understand why? I T-budded citrus scions to Flying Dragon rootstock to increase cold hardiness and dwarf the scion output....just grafted gourmet avocado scion wood to W. Indies hybrid rootstock cause that rootstock does well in a high salts environment and is efficient in excluding Ca which my well water is very high in. My well water's TDS is a whopping 839ppm. Whatcha think about that, junior? 



> IT is RARE to see a grower who just Pruned or topped. Mostly all GRAFTED.


Now that makes a helluva lot of sense. Look junior, all fruit trees are grafted and then trained via pruning to get the profile the grower wants. I prune peach trees very hard, and top cannabis. But it's all done for different reasons to get certain results. For starts, it's much easier to harvest fruit on a tree that's only 6' tall versus one that is 12'.



> Trees are also 'thinned' during the spring to increase fruit size. Im wayyyyy off topic right Uncle Chester


You finally got one right. A commercial peach, plum or apple grower will drop as much as 60% of the post flowering fruit to increase size and improve visual marketing appeal. The customer likes a big, richly colored peach....that's what sells, not one the size of a golf ball. It's all about visuals. Doesn't mean he'll get the same yield off that tree as he would have if he let it bear all fruit.

Now, feel free to comment when you can keep this all in it's proper context and NOT use Obama type spin and deceptions. Perhaps a teleprompter is in order?

UB


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jun 16, 2013)

Impman said:


> *
> 
> 'This is the same principle used by fruit orchard managers who create an open vase profile for their trees in order to increase production.'
> 
> ...


And here my dumbass thought grafting of fruit trees is used to obtain a true cultivar of a particular plant. Something that cannot be obtained from seed. Thanks for setting us straight, AS I ROLL MY EYES!


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 16, 2013)

Lol, Uncle Ben. I've lived on a small orchard and big farm all my life. Green Peace has even sent people out to work on my farm and learn some permaculture and conservation techniques and get hands on experience. I have friends that are professional horticulturists and PhDs in related fields, but I still learn things from you on a frequent basis. For example, "(fruit growers) use grafting to pair the rootstock with the soil profile and structure such that the scion can best utilize the applied water and soil elements." Makes perfect sense, but I had never once thought about it that way. I love it when you make me face palm, lol.


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## Darth Budder (Jun 16, 2013)

Also have to say thanks for all the work you put out here, only to get flamed by a bunch of people who don't appreciate a professionals time. You take a lot of shit for a guy who's just trying to help. Don't know how you keep doing it. 

Thanks again.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 16, 2013)

Rootstocks are almost important as the scion wood. They will uptake and deter certain elements that you may or may not want. For example, one of the parents of the 1103P grapevine rootstock that I mentioned was sourced right here where I live so it is a perfect match for our indigenous calcareous soils and does a great job uptaking all macros and micros. It takes lime and eliminates chlorosis issues, is drought tolerant, delays budbreak (a good thing for those spring frosts we always get) and imparts incredible vigor to the scion, sometimes a bad thing depending on what your scion is. It is now and has been used all over the world for rootstock material and saved the European industry during the phyloxxera plaque.

Networking is what it's all about, eh? Good on ya!


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 16, 2013)

Darth Budder said:


> Don't know how you keep doing it.


Just call me nuts.....


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## buddygrow420 (Jun 18, 2013)

I hope I am not out of order by jumping here. I think I read up to page 10 or so and have a pretty good idea what is about to happen. Thanks for posting this I was gonna top between 4th and 5th but this method intrigues me. I have 1 plant just about ready to top but it has a mutant leaf set at the 2nd true node! It grew only 2 leaves instead of 3 at the 2nd node!

I am huge sativa lover and no one grows it around here so I am jumping in. If you got the time to check out my mutant feel free to chime in!

Thanks again!


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## Squansk (Jun 19, 2013)

Gonna give it a try...looks amazing~


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jun 19, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Just call me nuts.....


Your nuts....


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## Sunbiz1 (Jun 19, 2013)

What's funny is I have read the page 1 instructions at least 5 times, and still wind up with 5 or 6 main colas...like this one I just chopped:


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## doobiemizer (Jun 19, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Just call me nuts.....


 Thanks for ur time UB regards


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jun 19, 2013)

Sunbiz1 said:


> What's funny is I have read the page 1 instructions at least 5 times, and still wind up with 5 or 6 main colas...like this one I just chopped:
> 
> View attachment 2705246View attachment 2705248


Your nodes are not directly opposing. I would say you are trying this method on clones. Read a bit deeper and you will find that this method is not intended, nor claimed, to work on clones.


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## chuck estevez (Jun 19, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Your nodes are not directly opposing. I would say you are trying this method on clones. Read a bit deeper and you will find that this method is not intended, nor claimed, to work on clones.


AS, you are usually right, but this time, you need to go read the original post, It clearly states, Seedling or cutting and even has clone in parenthesis.
also, see post # 36


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jun 19, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> AS, you are usually right, but this time, you need to go read the original post, It clearly states, Seedling or cutting and even has clone in parenthesis.
> also, see post # 36


I am pretty sure that UB states cuttings must have directly opposing branches at the nodes for this method too work. My bad though saying its not intended to be used on clones. I should have said clones must have directly opposing branches at the nodes in order for it too work. And how many clones have directly opposing branches, not many.


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## ricky1lung (Jun 19, 2013)

I topped my white widow once and it has turned out great.
Thanks for all of the info.

View attachment 2705315View attachment 2705316View attachment 2705317


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## Sunbiz1 (Jun 19, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Your nodes are not directly opposing. I would say you are trying this method on clones. Read a bit deeper and you will find that this method is not intended, nor claimed, to work on clones.


Yep, they were my clones...only work from seed when I want a new strain.

The method works even better on clones imho.


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## Vibration1 (Jun 19, 2013)

Thank You Uncle Ben
Used your technique on my clones and couldn't be happier.
Results are amazing.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jun 19, 2013)

Remember the title of the thread folks, 2 or 4 Main Colas?


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## dudeman222 (Jun 20, 2013)

My question is, once you start flower you get all these side branches that have limited potential, where do you guys draw the line on what to prune and what to keep?

One one hand you want your main colas to get most of the plants attention, on the other hand, more branches mean more flowers


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## Kite High (Jun 20, 2013)

It's quite simple for me. I allow the plant to keep what it wants and shed what it doesn't. I feel it knows way better than I. I just supply adequate lighting over the entire plant and let it do its thing.


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## applepoop1984 (Jun 20, 2013)

Kite High said:


> It's quite simple for me. I allow the plant to keep what it wants and shed what it doesn't. I feel it knows way better than I. I just supply adequate lighting over the entire plant and let it do its thing.


i agree . i never trim fan leaves unless:

they are dead and can be pulled off with the slightest tension

they are impeding circulation. not really a problem from up top especially if you are lsting, but mostly down below. this helps prevent mold


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## Kite High (Jun 20, 2013)

applepoop1984 said:


> i agree . i never trim fan leaves unless:
> 
> they are dead and can be pulled off with the slightest tension
> 
> they are impeding circulation. not really a problem from up top especially if you are lsting, but mostly down below. this helps prevent mold


I use fans down on the floor also for that reason and to push co2 back up


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## dudeman222 (Jun 20, 2013)

you can keep the fan leaves but remove the crap flowering spots where you know it wont develop?


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## simisimis (Jun 20, 2013)

Kite High said:


> It's quite simple for me. I allow the plant to keep what it wants* and shed what it doesn't*. I feel it knows way better than I. I just supply adequate lighting over the entire plant and let it do its thing.


what do you mean by "shed what it doesn't"? those side shoots that stay way behind others?


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## dudeman222 (Jun 20, 2013)

simisimis said:


> what do you mean by "shed what it doesn't"? those side shoots that stay way behind others?


that's what I was talking about. I'm in week 4 flower (of 8-9) and I spent the last two weeks removing a shit ton of side shoots that wont go anywhere. I don't have time to wait three extra weeks after harvest to let them develop, and I'd rather the plant focus the energy on top. Besides, light isn't getting there anyway.

I either remove the entire branch, of it it's part of a main branch, I remove the flowers but keep the leaves. Am I doing it wrong?


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## Kite High (Jun 20, 2013)

simisimis said:


> what do you mean by "shed what it doesn't"? those side shoots that stay way behind others?


the plant will drop leaves that aren't productive to its standards on its own


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## dudeman222 (Jun 21, 2013)

Kite High said:


> the plant will drop leaves that aren't productive to its standards on its own


what about shitty buds, the plant wont shed those, but they aren't going to be of any use either


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## colonuggs (Jun 21, 2013)

dudeman222 said:


> what about shitty buds, the plant wont shed those, but they aren't going to be of any use either


I have yet to see shitty buds on my plants...mabey smaller ones.....not shitty ones

a bud from the inside bottom is just as potent as a bud from the main top.


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## applepoop1984 (Jun 21, 2013)

simisimis said:


> what do you mean by "shed what it doesn't"? those side shoots that stay way behind others?


when you remove fan leaves or any shoots, it is counter productive. why remove a source of starch for the plants to get more light on another piece? you have stored energy in the leaf, when you cut you are removing that source of energy from the plant, you lose the starches and and the stomatas that respirate and to uptake co2. you are also stressing the plant. basically, look for leaves that are all brown and add a slight tension even less than the tension used to pull a paper towel slowly off the roll. . if it doesnt come off the plant is still using it. and in response to kite high i have an intake and an exhaust fan with the exhaust on the top and the intake on the bottom so that it pulls cold co2 rich air from the floor to the ceiling.


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## simisimis (Jun 21, 2013)

applepoop1984 said:


> when you remove fan leaves or any shoots, it is counter productive. why remove a source of starch for the plants to get more light on another piece? you have stored energy in the leaf, when you cut you are removing that source of energy from the plant, you lose the starches and and the stomatas that respirate and to uptake co2. you are also stressing the plant. basically, look for leaves that are all brown and add a slight tension even less than the tension used to pull a paper towel slowly off the roll. . if it doesnt come off the plant is still using it. and in response to kite high i have an intake and an exhaust fan with the exhaust on the top and the intake on the bottom so that it pulls cold co2 rich air from the floor to the ceiling.


Yeah I agree with you man, I was just wondering about one specific situation in which you get a lot when LSTing. On the node there's 2 opposite shoots, and one is like half inch long with curly tiny leaves and not growing any further or growing incredibly slow and another is like 5 inches. And you see that it will never see the light anyway so I was just wondering if those were the things Kite was shedding. I myself so far prefer leaving everything as it is and only pulling the leaves that fall with a gentle touch and do a 2 part harvest.


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## Lemon king (Jun 21, 2013)

I was Going to say i don't think they got what you ment.

You are saying you want to rid yourself off this crap and make the plant put that energy into the flower tops.

This is difficult to say as all grows and plants are different have a look at the mainliniing thread, this process is designed to eliminate popcorn bud whilst keeping plants short and squat as a bonus.

When not mainline I would say a safe bet would be to take an untrimmed branch and trim up to 50% from the bottom.

Some prefer to do a little and let the plants rest some take it all off at once so the plant only has to recover once.

I would either either do mainliniing (preferred) or try a scrog net, fill it and trim all below.

Hope this helps, however if this is not what you ment I'll shut the fk up!!


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## applepoop1984 (Jun 22, 2013)

Lemon king said:


> I was Going to say i don't think they got what you ment.
> 
> You are saying you want to rid yourself off this crap and make the plant put that energy into the flower tops.
> 
> ...


this stresses the plant. if those leaves on the bottom are not recieving light removing them before they come off naturally is removing a source of energy from the plant, forcing it to divert more energy into creating and storing energy. absolutely no advantages i can see


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## Lemon king (Jun 22, 2013)

applepoop1984 said:


> *this stresses the plant*. if those leaves on the bottom are not recieving light removing them before they come off naturally is removing a source of energy from the plant, forcing it to divert more energy into creating and storing energy. absolutely no advantages i can see


as i said it would need time to recover. this is an age old argument with people either side of the fence. if you ask a scrog grower or dwc grower, the removal of lower canopy is, we are told, to re direct hormones up to the higher main buds, similar to topping when diverting hormones down to the dormant bud shoots below. removal of lower bits n bobs will improve air flow in thick foliage, direct hormones to the main buds (we are told) let light through to lower budsites and you can rid yourself off unwanted popcorn.

there are so many growers who do it, and so many who dont, I believe abit off rough n tumble works. if i cut top shoots i get bushy if i hack off lower limbs i get head growth, try it. I believe in good canopy management and no popcorn this is why nugbucks is the man.

after all in an indoor grow there aint much that's "NATURAL"

no offence apple 84 just different sides of that fence! lol


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## applepoop1984 (Jun 23, 2013)

Lemon king said:


> as i said it would need time to recover. this is an age old argument with people either side of the fence. if you ask a scrog grower or dwc grower, the removal of lower canopy is, we are told, to re direct hormones up to the higher main buds, similar to topping when diverting hormones down to the dormant bud shoots below. removal of lower bits n bobs will improve air flow in thick foliage, direct hormones to the main buds (we are told) let light through to lower budsites and you can rid yourself off unwanted popcorn.
> 
> there are so many growers who do it, and so many who dont, I believe abit off rough n tumble works. if i cut top shoots i get bushy if i hack off lower limbs i get head growth, try it. I believe in good canopy management and no popcorn this is why nugbucks is the man.
> 
> ...


i dotn have any evidence to discredit your auxin/ hormone theory however the leaves are still a source of energy and that cannot be disproven. il have to look into your theory more


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 23, 2013)

Fellers, this isn't a lollipopping thread, please check out one of the many threads on removing fan leaves. Topic has been beat to death.......

Thanks!


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## OldGrowth420 (Jun 23, 2013)

I'm so glad Uncle Ben is still active on these threads. It's comforting to know he's still around giving out golden advice. You keep this place alive friend.


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## bogglegum (Jun 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben, I've been at it for almost 10 years.. All hydro... Never knew about this. 

Always learning.

i do have a few questions I'd like you to answer if you would.

1. I do a SoG. Mind you, it's a big area so I do want max leads out of space with out crowding. I want to do your method here on my next set. Question: from good mother plant clone ----> 5 or 6 true nodes >--- how many days on average?
2. Once the cut is made... In your opinion, how long should I veg to let the new growth get strong enough to go into 12 12.

My opinion: dude..... I'm impressed.


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## Sand4x105 (Jun 24, 2013)

What I like best about UB's way, is that I get to veg the plants longer, for they no longer look like christmas trees that are licking the lights...
Thanks UB!


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## prosperian (Jun 24, 2013)

I can see the advantage of performing the cuts early in growth and at the second node to produce those 4 main stems. These were topped a week ago. Real happy with the results UB, thx compadre!

Blue O.G. 4 main stems







White Lavender with three branches. Topped her to see what would happen. Six mains!


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## GandalfdaGreen (Jun 24, 2013)

Holy crap Pros. That looks really sweet. I am going to top tonight. This reminds me to get back into the topping game. My plants in Veg had a P def and some type of ph problem right at the point when they should have been topped so I decided that the additional stress at that point would have been a bad thing. Now that they are on the right track again, I am topping them. Thanks for sharing bro. Very inspiring.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 24, 2013)

Glad to hear of so many happy campers! 



bogglegum said:


> Uncle Ben, I've been at it for almost 10 years.. All hydro... Never knew about this.
> 
> Always learning.
> 
> ...


Are the nodes opposite of each other, or alternating?

Here's the FAQ, again, from another website:




FAQ

Q - Is your technique effective with a clone?

A - Only if the cutting (clone) has opposing nodes. Don't expect to get 2 or 4 main colas if the nodes are alternating. You're manipulating the plant's hormonal processes aka "apical dominance". The plant will redistribute the auxins equally to dormant foliar buds. 

************************************

Q - Will this work on a landrace, indica OR sativa, and what about hybrids?

A - The hormonal processes, redistribution of auxins, work the same whether you have a sativa, afghan (indica) or your typical mutt.

************************************

Q - Can I cut above the 3rd or 4th node?

A - You can, but you won't get the same effect regarding bulked up main colas. I came up with this simple technique in order to increase _main_ cola production from 1..... to 2 or 4. If you want alot of bud sites and a bushier plant, then top at say.....the 8th node, but, that's not my technique as described.

************************************

Q - I don't want to stress my plants. How long will this set my plants back?

A - There is no stress involved like underwatering a plant or giving it too much heat or light. They will respond with new output where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk" within 24 hours. If not, you have a cultural issue that you need to address. 

************************************

Q - You say to wait until the plant has 5-6 nodes before topping. Why?

A - That is only a guide to insure you have an established, well growing plant with a good root system. 3, 6 or 8 nodes, it's your call.

************************************

Q - Can I root the cutting?

A - Of course.

************************************

Q - What's a node??

A - Get outta here!


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## LuSiFeRsBuDz (Jun 24, 2013)

just a question did i do it right on my plant its bin about 3 days since i did it please let me know


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben, may I ask you a question unrelated to topping? It's regarding fungicides and insecticides. If there is somewhere else you'd rather me ask, just let me know; I don't want to derail any threads.


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## mycomaster (Jun 24, 2013)

I like to top at the 5th node. It leaves you the options of taking clones from lower nodes later, and after you do take out the low stuff you can bury the stem some and get a larger root system later before you flower her and Xplant a couple of times. It's all personal preference and adapting to your grow room and tech. Peace out


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## LuSiFeRsBuDz (Jun 24, 2013)

just a question did i do it right on my plant its bin about 3 days since i did it please let me know 
View attachment 2711803


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## LuSiFeRsBuDz (Jun 24, 2013)

so sorry i posted that twice


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## bogglegum (Jun 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Glad to hear of so many happy campers!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha, just ask me and ill answer 

all my mothers are clones of kept strains/phenos.
Most alternate.
So you are saying.. About 10 leads?

Good?


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## hydrogreen65 (Jun 24, 2013)

prosperian said:


> I can see the advantage of performing the cuts early in growth and at the second node to produce those 4 main stems. These were topped a week ago. Real happy with the results UB, thx compadre!
> 
> Blue O.G. 4 main stems
> 
> ...


 Are you gonna lst her too?


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 24, 2013)

NietzscheKeen said:


> Uncle Ben, may I ask you a question unrelated to topping? It's regarding fungicides and insecticides. If there is somewhere else you'd rather me ask, just let me know; I don't want to derail any threads.


Fire away. If you want to start a thread in another area and link us, go fer it.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 24, 2013)

LuSiFeRsBuDz said:


> just a question did i do it right on my plant its bin about 3 days since i did it please let me know
> View attachment 2711803


Looks good


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Fire away. If you want to start a thread in another area and link us, go fer it.


It's just a real quick question that can probably be answered in one post. Have you ever used wettable sulphur as an insecticide and fungicide spray on cannabis plants? I'm currently in flower and have been using a half strength application of Captan and Malathion with a full strength Neem oil spray. I've used Captan and Malathion on food crops and as long as you wait 7 days before harvest, there is no sign of it in or on the fruit. I'm betting that this will be the case for cannabis as well. I have an issue with powdery mildew in my area due to the high humidity and low winds, which is why I use Captan in addition to Neem, but I am slowly phasing it out as I approach harvest time. 

I guess to clarify, what are your thoughts on Sprayable sulphur? 
What are your thoughts on Captan and Malathion during flower?


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## socaljoe (Jun 24, 2013)

You rock UB.

I'm a rookie to growing cannabis, and I've learned a heck of a lot from your two threads here in the advanced section. Even though I know it's a plant like any other, nevertheless I found myself falling into the thought process, forum paradigm as you put it, that we need to treat pot plants differently. I've got you and a handful of other posters to thank for helping me pull my head out of my ass on that one.

Oh, and the topping technique is great, tried it and, wouldn't you know, it worked like a charm.


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## LuSiFeRsBuDz (Jun 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Looks good


alright thank you for your reply i will also stay tuned to anything u may have available


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 25, 2013)

NietzscheKeen said:


> It's just a real quick question that can probably be answered in one post. Have you ever used wettable sulphur as an insecticide and fungicide spray on cannabis plants? I'm currently in flower and have been using a half strength application of Captan and Malathion with a full strength Neem oil spray. I've used Captan and Malathion on food crops and as long as you wait 7 days before harvest, there is no sign of it in or on the fruit. I'm betting that this will be the case for cannabis as well. I have an issue with powdery mildew in my area due to the high humidity and low winds, which is why I use Captan in addition to Neem, but I am slowly phasing it out as I approach harvest time.
> 
> I guess to clarify, what are your thoughts on Sprayable sulphur?
> What are your thoughts on Captan and Malathion during flower?


PM is not a problem once temps reach 90F +.

Sulphur - fine if your temps stay below 90F. O days pre-harvest wait. 

Captan - I'm now looking at a highly refined, carefully scripted list of fungicides done for professional grape growers and it does not list Captan for PM control. It does list it for Downy Mildew control. It lists sulfur or oil like Stylet for good PM control. Rally (myclobutanil) is an excellent fungicide but has a 14 day pre-harvest interval. It (myclobutanil) is found at hardware stores and big box stores under various labels. It's a very popular, broad spectrum fungicide. I'd Google products listed for use on tobacco if I was you. Rally is a systemic, cheap, very effective. No phytotoxic issues.

Malathion - good organophosphate for aphids, mites, mealybugs, etc. and it breaks down quickly into a phosphate from which it was made.

Imidacloprid, a systemic and contact insecticide, is THE silver bullet for all things consumable but unfortunately it also kills mite predators. If you don't have a mite issue, go for it. This product used to be sky high in price. Now that the patent has expired its very cheap. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Adonis-75-WSP-Imidacloprid-75-Makes-100-Gallons-Packed-4-x-2-25oz-White-Fly-/271026091106?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1a69f462

Whatever you do, spray the product with an non-ionic surfactant added to the mix and TEST it on a few branches. I just had a major outbreak of mites on tropicals in my greenhouse (this after drenching them with imidacloprid about 2 months prior), followed label directions using some old Kelthane and basically screwed up 6 months growth on some avocado trees that were beautiful and lush with foliage, now looking like they were hit with napalm. So - spray a marked branch first, wait 2 days, and see if you get leaf burn.

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 25, 2013)

socaljoe said:


> You rock UB.
> 
> I'm a rookie to growing cannabis, and I've learned a heck of a lot from your two threads here in the advanced section. Even though I know it's a plant like any other, nevertheless I found myself falling into the thought process, forum paradigm as you put it, that we need to treat pot plants differently. I've got you and a handful of other posters to thank for helping me pull my head out of my ass on that one.
> 
> Oh, and the topping technique is great, tried it and, wouldn't you know, it worked like a charm.


Thanks! Once you come back to reality........push aside the forum insatiable drive to totally confuse and complicate growing a weed....... and grow the damn thing *conventionally* like you would a tomato plant, your production will greatly increase while your apprehension decreases.  BTW, that includes using a high N food from start to finish. Now there's a tough paradigm to personally sluff off!

UB


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## Sir.Ganga (Jun 25, 2013)

applepoop1984 said:


> when you remove fan leaves or any shoots, it is counter productive. why remove a source of starch for the plants to get more light on another piece? you have stored energy in the leaf, when you cut you are removing that source of energy from the plant, you lose the starches and and the stomatas that respirate and to uptake co2. you are also stressing the plant. basically, look for leaves that are all brown and add a slight tension even less than the tension used to pull a paper towel slowly off the roll. . if it doesnt come off the plant is still using it. and in response to kite high i have an intake and an exhaust fan with the exhaust on the top and the intake on the bottom so that it pulls cold co2 rich air from the floor to the ceiling.


 Well that's one way of thinking, I guess? These plants have been bombarded and raped by mother nature over the last....forever now, don't ya think they are prepared for anything? They were until we(humans) decided to grow them inside. Removing leaves just to get light to the lowers is just stupid, you will gain dick by doing this. Removing the suckers and leaves from the lower parts will. You can't just rip off leaves and expect to benefits the plants but if using correct techniques removal will not stress your girls as much as you think and allows you to optimize your yield and keep a healthy environment. If you grow indoors and do not prune you actually create more stress due to cramped, humid quarters. Don't blame the technique just because you don't understand the process. If your coming on here bitching that topping and other techniques don't work...try again because you obviously you are the problem not the technique. With all the comments on removal of just leaves and not the growing shoots tells me that most don't understand what they are trying to do and blame their issues on the poor technique, maybe you should look in the mirror because it isn't the plants.


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## prosperian (Jun 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Thanks! Once you come back to reality........push aside the forum insatiable drive to totally confuse and complicate growing a weed....... and grow the damn thing *conventionally* like you would a tomato plant, your production will greatly increase while your apprehension decreases.  BTW, that includes using a high N food from start to finish. Now there's a tough paradigm to personally sluff off! UB


Words of wisdom. UB, on the same subject of keeping it simple, are you still recommending citrus feed as a good, well balanced nute at a constant feed of 1/2 tsp. per gal? Thanks for the time and some great threads. 





hydrogreen65 said:


> Are you gonna lst her too?


Probably just this one topping unless I have some branches that get out of control. I need to grow vertical, because of my confined grow space. My last grow I didn't touch any leaves or branches, all natural. I recommend first time growers keep it simple and try not to do any modifications. That way you have a bench mark for all future grows and mods you make. And keep a garden calendar with everything written down, so you can repeat or find errors.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 25, 2013)

prosperian said:


> Words of wisdom. UB, on the same subject of keeping it simple, are you still recommending citrus feed as a good, well balanced nute at a constant feed of 1/2 tsp. per gal? Thanks for the time and some great threads.


I haven't tried it on cannabis but know an active grower that posts to Riddle3m that does and loves it. Rate of any food is dependent on plant needs, not some generic prescribed rate. Being that the N is slow release because of the urea, 1 tsp or more might work best, then again it might not. If it's not evident by now, pushing a plant with food and such is disastrous. Your best growth and production will come if you use common sense, moderation and let it grow on its own - naturally. 

I use Citrus FeED on other tropicals. What I like about it is it has triple chelated iron so if you have a chlorosis issue it will cover it no matter what the soil's pH or structure. The macros at 20-10-20 are well balanced and the micros profile is excellent.

UB


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> PM is not a problem once temps reach 90F +.
> 
> Sulphur - fine if your temps stay below 90F. O days pre-harvest wait.
> 
> ...


Thanks. That's good advice. I will test them out on a certain branch first and will look into those other sprays you mentioned. I'm sorry to hear about your avocado. 

I was concerned about the sulphur affecting the taste and aroma of the cannabis. You can try to avoid spraying it directly on the buds, but there is always overspray. I was using the Captan because I had some sitting around and it will usually improve the look of certain fruits that I have growing. I was curious as to the affect it would have on cannabis. It's not a great fungicide as you pointed out and it sounds like sulphur may be a bit better and more all encompassing. My temps stay between 85 and 92 usually and the humidity is always above 65% with very little wind, I think it was showing 1-3mph winds today, lol. I have seen powdery mildew on my plants, but they get a good soaking soon after that to prevent spread. 

So far the only bugs I see on my plants are the occasional stink bug and green lynx spiders; I try to leave the spiders alone though.

Thanks again for the information.


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## socaljoe (Jun 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Thanks! Once you come back to reality........push aside the forum insatiable drive to totally confuse and complicate growing a weed....... and grow the damn thing *conventionally* like you would a tomato plant, your production will greatly increase while your apprehension decreases.  BTW, that includes using a high N food from start to finish. Now there's a tough paradigm to personally sluff off!
> 
> UB


Yes indeed. I've seen the results people get using a generic, balanced fertilizer, like Jack's Classic, so no need for snake oils here. Looking to stay green and healthy until chopping.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 25, 2013)

NietzscheKeen said:


> Thanks. That's good advice. I will test them out on a certain branch first and will look into those other sprays you mentioned. I'm sorry to hear about your avocado.
> 
> I was concerned about the sulphur affecting the taste and aroma of the cannabis. You can try to avoid spraying it directly on the buds, but there is always overspray. I was using the Captan because I had some sitting around and it will usually improve the look of certain fruits that I have growing. I was curious as to the affect it would have on cannabis. It's not a great fungicide as you pointed out and it sounds like sulphur may be a bit better and more all encompassing. My temps stay between 85 and 92 usually and the humidity is always above 65% with very little wind, I think it was showing 1-3mph winds today, lol. I have seen powdery mildew on my plants, but they get a good soaking soon after that to prevent spread.
> 
> ...


I know big commercial vineyards that swear on sulfur and use it close to harvest. That's tricky because the slightest amount of sulphur in the must produces awful hydrogen sulfide, and no winery will sell wines that smell of rotten eggs. I would spray all or part of one plant and of course flag it. Smoke it and see for yourself. Experimenting is the only way you can learn about this stuff. Or you could spray as much as you want, then a day or two prior to harvest blast them with a spray of water using a backback sprayer. 

Stink bugs, damn the bugs from hell, Satan's workers!  At least you can kill mites but it's damn hard to kill a leaf footed gray stink bug. Get them with Sevin while they're juveniles. Little shits will be a bright orange/red and there will be colonies of them, hundreds. They can easily turn a tomato crop or peaches into mush.


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I know big commercial vineyards that swear on sulfur and use it close to harvest. That's tricky because the slightest amount of sulphur in the must produces awful hydrogen sulfide, and no winery will sell wines that smell of rotten eggs. I would spray all or part of one plant and of course flag it. Smoke it and see for yourself. Experimenting is the only way you can learn about this stuff. Or you could spray as much as you want, then a day or two prior to harvest blast them with a spray of water using a backback sprayer.
> 
> Stink bugs, damn the bugs from hell, Satan's workers!  At least you can kill mites but it's damn hard to kill a leaf footed gray stink bug. Get them with Sevin while they're juveniles. Little shits will be a bright orange/red and there will be colonies of them, hundreds. They can easily turn a tomato crop or peaches into mush.


I was planning to cease spraying sulphur around two weeks before harvest and let the rain do it's thing; if however there is not rain, and I might even do it if there is, I will spray it with water as you suggest. Fun fact about the hydrogen sulfide. No one wants to smoke sulphur either, lol. I've only sprayed once with sulphur, but I spray the Neem, Captan, and Malathion weekly (as weather permits) and spread some Sevin granules around the planting site, so bugs haven't really been too big of an issue. They are more of an issue in my tomato field as you mentioned, lol. Thanks again.

Edit: I think I may use a sulphur and malathion spray on my grapes this year. I always have so many yellow jackets and raccoons eating them. I doubt it will stop the raccoons, but I've got two new dogs this year, so maybe they will do the trick.


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## BigNBushy (Jun 25, 2013)

Currently about 200 pages into the thread, but thought I would jump to here to say a couple things. What is a true node? lol, jk.. Anyway, I did this to my largest girl 3 days ago, and it is looking great. Just walked in from doing it to my other 4. I have a 6th that is a runt that I am not expecting much out of. Developing about as much as the others, but is just so much smaller. Anyway, Im trying cloning the tops I just snipped off. But I noticed something cool on the plant I did the other day. The first node is growing as I expected. The second node, now the top node of the original stem, is growing out three leaders. One on one side, and two on the other. It looks really cool. I might have 5 main cola's out of this. UB many thanks to you for posting this and keeping the thread going with so many repeat questions. I am super eager to see how this does.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 26, 2013)

NietzscheKeen said:


> I was planning to cease spraying sulphur around two weeks before harvest and let the rain do it's thing; if however there is not rain, and I might even do it if there is, I will spray it with water as you suggest. Fun fact about the hydrogen sulfide. No one wants to smoke sulphur either, lol. I've only sprayed once with sulphur, but I spray the Neem, Captan, and Malathion weekly (as weather permits) and spread some Sevin granules around the planting site, so bugs haven't really been too big of an issue. They are more of an issue in my tomato field as you mentioned, lol. Thanks again.
> 
> Edit: I think I may use a sulphur and malathion spray on my grapes this year. I always have so many yellow jackets and raccoons eating them. I doubt it will stop the raccoons, but I've got two new dogs this year, so maybe they will do the trick.


Moth balls to repel the coons, or a trap.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 26, 2013)

BigNBushy said:


> Currently about 200 pages into the thread, but thought I would jump to here to say a couple things. What is a true node? lol, jk.. Anyway, I did this to my largest girl 3 days ago, and it is looking great. Just walked in from doing it to my other 4. I have a 6th that is a runt that I am not expecting much out of. Developing about as much as the others, but is just so much smaller. Anyway, Im trying cloning the tops I just snipped off. But I noticed something cool on the plant I did the other day. The first node is growing as I expected. The second node, now the top node of the original stem, is growing out three leaders. One on one side, and two on the other. It looks really cool. I might have 5 main cola's out of this. UB many thanks to you for posting this and keeping the thread going with so many repeat questions. I am super eager to see how this does.


That is interesting. 2 dormant foliar buds in the node axis. Keep us posted.


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Moth balls to repel the coons, or a trap.


Lol, we have several live traps, but they are too smart. Moth ball eh? I will have to give that a try. Do you suggest we spread them around the bottom of the arbors?


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 26, 2013)

NietzscheKeen said:


> Lol, we have several live traps, but they are too smart. Moth ball eh? I will have to give that a try. Do you suggest we spread them around the bottom of the arbors?


Enoz brand found at Walgreens is best spread around the tree. What I don't like using live traps is having to shoot them....but that's what you need to do. 22 works, in the neck right behind the head.


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 27, 2013)

We've got too many other animals around to use a conibear. I would just relocate them because there is no way I could shoot something in a trap. Thanks for the advice!


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jun 27, 2013)

NietzscheKeen said:


> We've got too many other animals around to use a conibear. I would just relocate them because there is no way I could shoot something in a trap. Thanks for the advice!


You would be doing nature a bigger favor shooting them rather than relocating. The relocation of wild animals without a proper check up by a vet is playing with fire. You could easily spread disease to otherwise healthy populations.


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## Kite High (Jun 27, 2013)

coons be good eatin


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jun 27, 2013)

Kite High said:


> coons be good eatin


Certainly another option.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 27, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> You would be doing nature a bigger favor shooting them rather than relocating. The relocation of wild animals without a proper check up by a vet is playing with fire. You could easily spread disease to otherwise healthy populations.


Me being a former city boy and an animal lover, I did just that - took the first one caught down a nearby road, let it out, and a local rancher caught me. He gave me hell for not killing it, said they steal cattle feed blah blah blah. They are indeed pests, just trying to survive of course. They will kill chickens, eat their eggs, ravage vineyards, etc. Looking for water they will put pinholes in my irrigation lines, same damn place every time. Looks like a freakin' bunch of geysers! I now trap, then shoot them through the cage. Some local vineyards never remove their traps, they bait them with dog food and trap the suckers all year long.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jun 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Me being a former city boy and an animal lover, I did just that - took the first one caught down a nearby road, let it out, and a local rancher caught me. He gave me hell for not killing it, said they steal cattle feed blah blah blah. They are indeed pests, just trying to survive of course. They will kill chickens, eat their eggs, ravage vineyards, etc. Looking for water they will put pinholes in my irrigation lines, same damn place every time. Looks like a freakin' bunch of geysers! I now trap, then shoot them through the cage. Some local vineyards never remove their traps, they bait them with dog food and trap the suckers all year long.


Agreed. I am not one for 'want and waste' by no means. But sometimes we need to do what we need too do, unpleasant as it may be...
And I have found peanut butter smeared on the trip plate works very well. They cannot simply reach and grab the bait without tripping the trap. Of course pbutter is not fool proof but does increase your odds of success. And a trail of whole peanuts leading into the trap dosent hurt!


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 27, 2013)

Well, I will let someone else shoot him/her I guess. sheesh... but then I would feel guilty about setting the trap. I'm so tender hearted when it comes to animals.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jun 27, 2013)

NietzscheKeen said:


> Well, I will let someone else shoot him/her I guess. sheesh... but then I would feel guilty about setting the trap. I'm so tender hearted when it comes to animals.


I am an old farmer and raise a few pigs each year for meat. And let me tell you pigs have amazing personalities. And I always need to have and friend come a drop them when it comes time...I feel ya bro...


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 27, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> I am an old farmer and raise a few pigs each year for meat. And let me tell you pigs have amazing personalities. And I always need to have and friend come a drop them when it comes time...I feel ya bro...


Yep, me too. Especially because they start to trust you since you always bring them food and water and fresh bedding etc.


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 27, 2013)

Ok back on topic.


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## Kite High (Jun 27, 2013)

a recent example of what UB's topping method AND retaining leaves does

Female Seeds C99




























That is 4 plants total and that is only SOME of the MAIN colas...lots more than that in secondaries

Thanks again UB for all you have taught me


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 27, 2013)

Wow! Pleasure is mine, and thanks for all you have taught me amigo.


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## HeartlandHank (Jun 27, 2013)

Kite High said:


> a recent example of what UB's topping method AND retaining leaves does


Kite High, NICE!. This is the first time I've seen a pic of your grows. Looks fucking great..
I assumed you knew how to grow some plants from the conversations I've taken part in... but here's the proof. Hell yeah..


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 27, 2013)

That is VERY nice.


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## beginner420 (Jun 27, 2013)

Hey just wondering I topped my plants and used your method, but if I need ti prune again should I just top them normally?


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## bluehog101 (Jun 28, 2013)

Sup UB, it's been awhile since you post up a new pic. Show us one your girls!!!


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 28, 2013)

You've been on here since Fed 2013 and this is your first post? ...weird.


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## hemphopper (Jun 28, 2013)

I love this thread and thanks to UB! I am starting a new grow and have questions. I have a small area 2' deep 4' wide and 6' tall. I've always used T5 flouro but have just bought a 400 W HPS and cool tube which I intend to us for this grow. I'd like to do 4 plants (AK4 and top just above node 2 after the 5th node appears as described on page 1. I'd like to use 3 gal nursery pots and observe sound botanical practices. I plan to veg for a while after topping and before cycling down to 12/12. Do I have enough space in my area? I think yes but I've never used this technique or grown AK48 before. A few years back I grew 10 Barney's Farm Blue Cheese in that box under T5's and no topping. Results were actually good but it was too crowded and the untopped plants stretched in different amounts and T5 light doesn't have the best strength for flowering but my wife and were high for a year from that grow. I'd welcome any advice. Thanks, HH


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## HeartlandHank (Jun 28, 2013)

I don't wanna be the asshole who changes the topic...
Kite, you have any threads on your setup?. I'm interested in your vert garden..

I've played with some stadium type grows, never a real vert though. I might be getting a little more room to play in the near future. So, it's an option..


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## NietzscheKeen (Jun 29, 2013)

Since we were talking about it recently. I came across an article from UC Davis that stated oils such as neem oil and wettable sulphur sprays should not be applied within two weeks of one another as it can injure the plant. The same article also said not to apply a sulphur spray when temperature were near or over 90 degrees F. Just thought I'd share incase there were any interested parties. 

Pest Notes: Powdery Mildew on Vegetables
UC ANR Publication 7406 
Authors: R. M. Davis, Plant Pathology, UC Davis; W. D. Gubler, Plant Pathology, UC Davis; S. T. Koike, UC Cooperative Extension, Monterey County


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 30, 2013)

hemphopper said:


> I love this thread and thanks to UB! I am starting a new grow and have questions. I have a small area 2' deep 4' wide and 6' tall. I've always used T5 flouro but have just bought a 400 W HPS and cool tube which I intend to us for this grow. I'd like to do 4 plants (AK4 and top just above node 2 after the 5th node appears as described on page 1. I'd like to use 3 gal nursery pots and observe sound botanical practices. I plan to veg for a while after topping and before cycling down to 12/12. Do I have enough space in my area? I think yes but I've never used this technique or grown AK48 before. A few years back I grew 10 Barney's Farm Blue Cheese in that box under T5's and no topping. Results were actually good but it was too crowded and the untopped plants stretched in different amounts and T5 light doesn't have the best strength for flowering but my wife and were high for a year from that grow. I'd welcome any advice. Thanks, HH


If it was me I'd grow 2 maybe 3 "large" plants. If you have the right hood that 400W will cover quite a bit more footprint than 8 s.f.

Good luck!


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 30, 2013)

NietzscheKeen said:


> Since we were talking about it recently. I came across an article from UC Davis that stated oils such as neem oil and wettable sulphur sprays should not be applied within two weeks of one another as it can injure the plant. The same article also said not to apply a sulphur spray when temperature were near or over 90 degrees F. Just thought I'd share incase there were any interested parties.
> 
> Pest Notes: Powdery Mildew on Vegetables
> UC ANR Publication 7406
> Authors: R. M. Davis, Plant Pathology, UC Davis; W. D. Gubler, Plant Pathology, UC Davis; S. T. Koike, UC Cooperative Extension, Monterey County


This is being recommended by pros (tropical fruits) in another forum I post to - http://www.agbio-inc.com/agri-fos.html

I tell you what, I've had enough phytotoxicity issues in the last few weeks to last a lifetime. You really need to test whatever product is new to you on a few flagged branches, both new developing foliage and hardened off foliage. For instance, I've burned the crap out of cannabis with Safer's Soap, which stands to reason - it's a caustic soap type product.


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## ghandi420 (Jul 3, 2013)

Hi UB great thread by the way. Just got a couple of questions for you, if you don't mind. Do you have much knowledge on UK outdoor grows? It's my first time and stumbled upon this thread looking for good information. I want to top my candy kush plant as described on page 1. I'm just worried if it will be able to handle it in this weather. It's on its 5th node. Also not so relevant to this post do you know why one of the top fan leaves has started to crinkle? Cheers.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 3, 2013)

No info on UK outdoor grows but I assume you need to find a mutt with a strong indica influence (quick finisher that flowers easily) and have some fungicides handy, and a pint of 'Old Speckled Hen' would be fittin' too. 

Topping or not won't make any difference.

Good luck!


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## hyroot (Jul 3, 2013)

Ben do you see less stretching with your method with sativa doms opposed to growing Christmas tree style? Letting the plant do its own thing.

I got over main lining a few months ago. Maybe it was my strains. Mine never looked anything like nugs. I.got big buds. Yield was up and down.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 3, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Ben do you see less stretching with your method with sativa doms opposed to growing Christmas tree style? Letting the plant do its own thing.
> 
> I got over main lining a few months ago. Maybe it was my strains. Mine never looked anything like nugs. I.got big buds. Yield was up and down.


Don't really see any difference regarding stretching. It's just what cannabis does.


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## gognos (Jul 4, 2013)

Hi ben 

*FAQ

Q - Is your technique effective with a clone?


A - Only if the cutting (clone) has opposing nodes. Don't expect to get 2 or 4 main colas if the nodes are alternating. You're manipulating the plant's hormonal processes aka "apical dominance". The plant will redistribute the auxins equally to dormant foliar buds. *

I disagree with this, you normally only get opposing nodes if growing from seed, a few generations of cuttings only and i only ever have alternating nodes. I still get 4 + main colas of equal height from clones though. I do normally let them get to about a foot high before topping making use of a decent sized clone. i will post a pics tomorrow


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 4, 2013)

gognos said:


> Hi ben
> 
> *FAQ
> 
> ...


Bullshit.....


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## hyroot (Jul 4, 2013)

^^^^^^^ if you have alternating nodes, just pinch the taller branch to slow its growth down.. the lower branch will catch up in a day or 2.Then canopy is even. Auxiins still distribute the same.....


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## Born Again Vegan (Jul 4, 2013)

The only issue I've had with this techique is when growing with two colas the bud can get so big botrytis is a real concern, its got me twice now. The first time was enough, I've lived in paranoia ever since that day. She still got me again tho  Heres four Medicine man aka White Rhino, three with two colas, one with four. Hope you enjoy

Group shot



Big momma, Sour apple bubble gum pheno I shit you not


Bud rot bitch 

Four colas

More White Widow in this one methinks


Some stalk porn to finish



Uncle Ben I thank you again for such a B E A UTIFUL Technique, fcuk-ing killer! Thank you also for all the info you put out as well.
Your posts about snake oils really opened my eyes to 
A. The unregulated bullshit the cannabis industry puts out
B. How much of a retard I'd been falling for it. 
You've helped me alot with techniques and you've saved me shitloads of money in the long run.
Big respect to you UB, you are da Man


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 6, 2013)

Born Again Vegan said:


> Uncle Ben I thank you again for such a B E A UTIFUL Technique, fcuk-ing killer! Thank you also for all the info you put out as well.
> Your posts about snake oils really opened my eyes to
> A. The unregulated bullshit the cannabis industry puts out
> B. How much of a retard I'd been falling for it.
> ...


You're welcome! Happy to see you finally saw the light.


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## BotanyBeast (Jul 9, 2013)

No clue how this site goes but ive been lurkin the thread maybe a month, i just recently topped. But do you have any clue while ruderalis plants flower when they do? I dont buy or use them im just curious as to why the mature in age rather than light. Im wanting to get some kind of degree in botany, anyways maybe theres a thread by you on this if not maybe you could start one. Not too interested in anyone elses opinion unless the facts are straight. Like i said im an aspiring botanist. Thx


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 10, 2013)

BotanyBeast said:


> No clue how this site goes but ive been lurkin the thread maybe a month, i just recently topped. But do you have any clue while ruderalis plants flower when they do? I dont buy or use them im just curious as to why the mature in age rather than light. Im wanting to get some kind of degree in botany, anyways maybe theres a thread by you on this if not maybe you could start one. Not too interested in anyone elses opinion unless the facts are straight. Like i said im an aspiring botanist. Thx


Here's a good place to chew the fat. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers-81.html


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## Impman (Jul 14, 2013)

I was running today and noticed massive spider mite infestation on maple trees all over the neighborhood. Massive colonies were talking. I even brush into the maple leafs when they hangover the road or sidewalk. 

My first grow ever it felt like i was battling spider mites all grow, using Asamax and predator mites. I was able to control the population pretty good. I was growing AfghanKush.
This grow I have not used any Azamax or anything at all. Not one single spider mite. Im almost offended. lol.

ok here is the quick newb question as I do not want to start a spider mite debate. Is it luck or genetics that i dont have mites? im about a week from harvest

wrong thread whoops, sorry. i got some hilarious ' how not to top' pics coming when i harvest. you have got to see my funky plants. i have one main cola and then a shmorgisboard of other colas... shmorigs is a latin word for shrmorging


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## puffdatchronic (Jul 15, 2013)

Tried this topping for 4 this grow, and I'm sold. Developing real nice. What I've noticed is topping at 2nd makes all branches even, topping higher you end up with 2 branches left behind below the canopy. Will update at end of stretch to show how it turned out. Thanks to all the experts out there who are helping people like me grow better plants.
The 3:1:4 chilli food seems to be working great too.

View attachment 2737707View attachment 2737708


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## Kite High (Jul 15, 2013)

puffdatchronic said:


> Tried this topping for 4 this grow, and I'm sold. Developing real nice. What I've noticed is topping at 2nd makes all branches even, topping higher you end up with 2 branches left behind below the canopy. Will update at end of stretch to show how it turned out. Thanks to all the experts out there who are helping people like me grow better plants.
> The 3:1:4 chilli food seems to be working great too.
> 
> View attachment 2737707View attachment 2737708


I always top for four...looks great bro


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## puffdatchronic (Jul 15, 2013)

thanks man, I know you always do it, that's why I tried it. If its good enough for you...


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## yankeegreen (Jul 16, 2013)

Here are a few shots of my Early Durban from seed, cropped a la Uncle Ben's technique. I used the method once before on Mandala's Beyond the Brain strain and had mixed results, one girl with four dominant colas and two girls with two. Early read on the Durabns is more consistent but we will see how they end up.


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## Julius Caesar (Jul 16, 2013)

I am sure this question may have already been asked, but I cannot read 481 pages - Yes I suck.

Can you top a rooted clone in the same manner and expect the same result?

Edit - Answer found on page 480


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## Situation420 (Jul 20, 2013)

if you remove the first set of true leaves when the new node between the leaf stem and the main stalk is about a half inch long those 2 branches will grow into colas and you still have the main stalk so that makes 3. Then if you do it again on the second node that makes 5 colas. After that, if you pinch the top or top it right after the 3rd node then you get 6-8 main colas. Removing the leaves causes the plant to grow slower and keep the original lower nodes closer together all within an inch of vertical growth ensuring even growth of all the main colas. My veg takes about 5 weeks now using this technique instead of 3, but whats the difference when flowering takes 7-8 weeks anyway? This is perfect for SOG


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## Impman (Jul 20, 2013)

Julius Caesar said:


> I am sure this question may have already been asked, but I cannot read 481 pages - Yes I suck.
> 
> Can you top a rooted clone in the same manner and expect the same result?
> 
> Edit - Answer found on page 480


I learned to scroll fast through the threads by looking for Avatars of people you trust or like. Any time I see UB giant bud plant and the peace signs I stop to read. Same with a few others like Kite High, cooter, umm cant think right now.... you can skip sections too, like netime you see my avatar lol, you will know its a off the wall comment 
,


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## malkuth (Jul 21, 2013)

Hi UB,
So i have started some seeds in coco on 6-10-13 and let me start by saying im a newer grower ... they are the dairy queen strain and are recovering nicely now but they got a little burned from drip ring on my dwc setup splashing somehow from the ring(fixed now). On the subject of fimming and topping i wanted to know when I would want to top/fim these babies for the first time for a scrog setup.

(Tried to show how many nodes there are)
Also how long do I want to let the plant recover before next fim/top?
So it seems this is more focused on 2 to 4 main colas and im looking for a lot more, does that mean i will be top/fim'ing like each main node of every new branch growth once the branch has 4 nodes on it?
Sorry to bombard with ?s. Just wanna dial this in before i cut away at anything.
Great thread btw UB


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 21, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> if you remove the first set of true leaves when the new node between the leaf stem and the main stalk is about a half inch long those 2 branches will grow into colas and you still have the main stalk so that makes 3. Then if you do it again on the second node that makes 5 colas. After that, if you pinch the top or top it right after the 3rd node then you get 6-8 main colas. Removing the leaves causes the plant to grow slower and keep the original lower nodes closer together all within an inch of vertical growth ensuring even growth of all the main colas. My veg takes about 5 weeks now using this technique instead of 3, but whats the difference when flowering takes 7-8 weeks anyway? This is perfect for SOG


You need to rethink your definition of main colas. Tops and colas kiddies....


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 21, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> if you remove the first set of true leaves when the new node between the leaf stem and the main stalk is about a half inch long those 2 branches will grow into colas and you still have the main stalk so that makes 3. Then if you do it again on the second node that makes 5 colas. After that, if you pinch the top or top it right after the 3rd node then you get 6-8 main colas. Removing the leaves causes the plant to grow slower and keep the original lower nodes closer together all within an inch of vertical growth ensuring even growth of all the main colas. My veg takes about 5 weeks now using this technique instead of 3, but whats the difference when flowering takes 7-8 weeks anyway? This is perfect for SOG


Off topic - that is not my method. Their is a big difference between a main cola and plain ole bud production.

A "leaf stem" is properly called a petiole.

UB


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## prosperian (Jul 21, 2013)

¿Qué pasa UB? My first topping attempt... Going into flower pretty soon and wanted to show my topped Blue OG before (1 gal) and after shots (5 gal). I'm seeing some fan leaf yellowing down below where my light penetration is weakest. Bought a couple 24" fluorescents this morning to place down there. They get straight water and hot soil. 

This week I replaced the 400w HID with LED for high heat issues in the closet. My temp variance with this LED panel is just two or three degrees from lights on / off. How will this affect my grows? Temps with light on is 73-74 degrees.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 21, 2013)

prosperian said:


> ¿Qué pasa UB? My first topping attempt... Going into flower pretty soon and wanted to show my topped Blue OG before (1 gal) and after shots (5 gal). I'm seeing some fan leaf yellowing down below where my light penetration is weakest. Bought a couple 24" fluorescents this morning to place down there. They get straight water and hot soil.
> 
> This week I replaced the 400w HID with LED for high heat issues in the closet. My temp variance with this LED panel is just two or three degrees from lights on / off. How will this affect my grows? Temps with light on is 73-74 degrees.


Nice job! Regarding the temp drop, discussed it to death including a post today. Please read my posts.

Like many I started in a closet and used side reflecting panels sandwiched on either side of the plants, front to back. I lined the door with shiny side foil out, closed the door most of the way and put a window fan on the floor at the opening so that cool air would go in at the bottom and hot air out at the top. Grew some awesome plants. In fact, I think my avatar was grown that way and that was with a 250 HPS from start to finish. 

Humor me, don't screw up that foliage by switching to a bloom food! I know it's hard to fight the urge to merge (with The Herd) but if you must because the brainwashing is so deep, try one or two plants with a high or moderate N to K & P ratio food until harvest.

I cram my plants in together and rarely get any lower leaf yellowing. What's the food you're using, and please don't give me product names without any further info - give my NPK values and such.

Good luck,
UB


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## NietzscheKeen (Jul 21, 2013)

prosperian said:


> ¿Qué pasa UB? My first topping attempt... Going into flower pretty soon and wanted to show my topped Blue OG before (1 gal) and after shots (5 gal). I'm seeing some fan leaf yellowing down below where my light penetration is weakest. Bought a couple 24" fluorescents this morning to place down there. They get straight water and hot soil.


OMG That's awesome. Except for having laminate wood flooring and my light hanging from the clothes rod, your set up looks exactly like mine! LMAO. I think we even have the same light, lol. I was thinking of getting some fluorescents to supplement as well. Looking good Prosp!

(Couldn't get my photo to load for some reason) 
https://www.rollitup.org/attachments/outdoor-growing/2603316d1365259596-first-grow-photos-thus-far-p1010525.jpg


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## prosperian (Jul 21, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice job! Humor me, don't screw up that foliage by switching to a bloom food! I know it's hard to fight the urge to merge (with The Herd) but if you must because the brainwashing is so deep, try one or two plants with a high or moderate N to K & P ratio food until harvest. I cram my plants in together and rarely get any lower leaf yellowing. What's the food you're using, and please don't give me product names without any further info - give my NPK values and such.Good luck,UB


Thanks for the reply UB! You will be happy to read that I don't use bloom food. My first grow I used bottle nutes and my plants yellowed during flowering, so I added more bottled grow nutes to compensate. I believe that the plant should be green through harvest and no flushing is necessary.

This grow has zero bottled nutes, just a coco based potting soil made with... bat guano, earth worm castings, fish bone meal, feather meal, green sand, mycorrihzae, glacial rock dust, soybean meal, humic acid, and a couple other things. I cook it for a month before using and transplant from 1ga, 3gal, to 5gal for fresh soil.

I have Jack's Citrus FeED 20-10-20 sitting on the shelf if needed, but I will top dress with fresh cooked soil as I get further into flowering. There you go brother, been reading your post for a long time and I practice basic botany over ganja myth!






NietzscheKeen said:


> OMG That's awesome. Except for having laminate wood flooring and my light hanging from the clothes rod, your set up looks exactly like mine! LMAO. I think we even have the same light, lol. I was thinking of getting some fluorescents to supplement as well. Looking good Prosp!


Appreciate the feedback Nietzche. I think it's been a fun challenge to produce quality bud from my stealth closet. I enjoy reading your posts around the board.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 21, 2013)

Nice plan!


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## lamopa (Jul 21, 2013)

Julius Caesar said:


> I am sure this question may have already been asked, but I cannot read 481 pages - Yes I suck.
> 
> Can you top a rooted clone in the same manner and expect the same result?
> 
> *Edit - Answer found on page 480*


Awesome!! Shows me JC is a serious dude who doesn't half-ass!!


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## Situation420 (Jul 22, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> You need to rethink your definition of main colas. Tops and colas kiddies....


No they all are as big as each other, therefore they are each main colas and start at the base of the plant about 3-4 inches from the soil line. The size of them is the same as if I let a single cola main stem grow to the same height, instead I get 6-8 per plant rather than 4-6


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 22, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> No they all are as big as each other, therefore they are each main colas and start at the base of the plant about 3-4 inches from the soil line. The size of them is the same as if I let a single cola main stem grow to the same height, instead I get 6-8 per plant rather than 4-6


Please share some pictures of your plants with 6-8 "colas"...


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 22, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Please share some pictures of your plants with 6-8 "colas"...


He reminds me of this auctioneer. Exuberance will get you in deep doo doo!

[video=vimeo;62996707]http://vimeo.com/62996707[/video]


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 22, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> He reminds me of this auctioneer. Exuberance will get you in deep doo doo!
> 
> [video=vimeo;62996707]http://vimeo.com/62996707[/video]


Ya, the harder he tries the deeper the hole gets!


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## Situation420 (Jul 22, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> He reminds me of this auctioneer. Exuberance will get you in deep doo doo!


Why are you always jerking eachother off on every thread Lmaoo? its like you have to have someone always certify your ideas, just so people will believe that you know what your talking about. I actually know what im talking about rather than just saying pinch this or cut that, I know what happens when you do that and why it happens. Let me briefly explain for you dumbasses that insist that you know everything about plants, and anyone who disagrees with you is automatically wrong.

You ever hear of Abscisic Acid? It is a chemical compound that regulates stem and bud growth and bud and seed dormancy. Abscisic acid is primarily produced in the leaves of the plant inside the chloroplast and it controls hormonal concentration in the apical meristem that alters the last set of leaves in a stem into a leaf covered protection system for the flowers. Even though Abscisic Acid is chemical compound it still functions like a hormone. When it degrades or catobolizes (i think thats how you spell it) it affects the metabolic rates effecting cell growth and the production of other hormones in the plant. When a plant is in its seedling stage, the Abscisic Acid levels are at its highest, then as the plant matures, the Absisic acid levels begin to decline. Once the plant produces offshoots with fully functioning leaves, the Abscisic Acid levels in the plant begin to increase, that slows down growth in more mature areas of the plant. 

I think by removing the leaves UB where the Abscisic Acid is produced, you are regulating hormonal concentrations in the plant and can control each stem individually if you want. Or is this too hard for you to understand?

EDIT: 



Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy!
> 
> Based on quite a few questions about topping I've received here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a-12.html I decided to reproduce a thread on my favorite topping method published at cann.com about 10 years ago.
> 
> ...


They way you talk about the "redistribution" is not how auxins behave entirely there is more to it than that. By removing the top portion of the apical meristem you are creating a hormonal imbalance in the plant and removing the concentration of Auxin hormones generally located in areas of new growth. The plant responds by producing more Auxin hormones due to the increase cytokin hormones relative to auxin hormones. This lack of Auxin hormones prevents it from acting as a growth inhibitor to the lower branches of the plant. This imbalance is what causes the newly formed stems to grow more rapidly than the branches that have been cut or pinched or topped.


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## hyroot (Jul 23, 2013)

Removing leaves stunts growth. Slows respiration. Which means less exchange of o2 and co2. The more leaves and larger the leaves. The more the plant can transpire. You slow a plants ability to breathe sort of speak and its ability to store energy. You slow its growth. Try a side by side for yourself. See the truth. Quit arguing with bullshit Thats not true.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 23, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Removing leaves stunts growth. Slows respiration. Which means less exchange of o2 and co2. The more leaves and larger the leaves. The more the plant can transpire. You slow a plants ability to breathe sort of speak and its ability to store energy. You slow its growth. Try a side by side for yourself. See the truth. Quit arguing with bullshit Thats not true.


He is just young and dumb thats all.


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## Kite High (Jul 23, 2013)

Plain and simple. Less resources will lower yield/ growth rate. Leaves produce the resources for growth/production. Less leaves less resources for growth/production. 

Defoliation has its purpose but its just not possible for it to increase production. Acids and hormonal interplay from removing leaves will not make up for it. The plant already maximizes resource production by growing leaves and will on its own drop what it doesn't need with alot better judgement than we humans can even hope to muster. I mean why would it grow the leaf if it is not in its best interest?


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## Situation420 (Jul 24, 2013)

Kite High said:


> Plain and simple. Less resources will lower yield/ growth rate. Leaves produce the resources for growth/production. Less leaves less resources for growth/production.
> 
> Defoliation has its purpose but its just not possible for it to increase production. Acids and hormonal interplay from removing leaves will not make up for it. The plant already maximizes resource production by growing leaves and will on its own drop what it doesn't need with alot better judgement than we humans can even hope to muster. I mean why would it grow the leaf if it is not in its best interest?



So when your looking at your plants, and you see that below the canopy that the plants are overgrown and even before flowering, they are choking off air flow and light penetration .Your telling me you would not cut out those overgrown branches inside the plant kite high? (if the option to open up the plant to get more light is not available because of room size)


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 24, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I mean why would it grow the leaf if it is not in its best interest?


I dunno, I grew an appendix but the doctor told me I was better off without it.


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 24, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I dunno, I grew an appendix but the doctor told me I was better off without it.


There was a time in our primordial past it was a functioning organ. As far as I know plants have yet evolved to a point of not needing leaves.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 24, 2013)

Kite High said:


> Plain and simple. Less resources will lower yield/ growth rate. Leaves produce the resources for growth/production. Less leaves less resources for growth/production.
> 
> Defoliation has its purpose but its just not possible for it to increase production. Acids and hormonal interplay from removing leaves will not make up for it. The plant already maximizes resource production by growing leaves and will on its own drop what it doesn't need with alot better judgement than we humans can even hope to muster. I mean why would it grow the leaf if it is not in its best interest?


Defoliation is a sign of mental disease.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 24, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> So when your looking at your plants, and you see that below the canopy that the plants are overgrown and even before flowering, they are choking off air flow and light penetration .Your telling me you would not cut out those overgrown branches inside the plant kite high? (if the option to open up the plant to get more light is not available because of room size)


They're are not choking off anything. Did you bother to even look at my plants crammed into a small indoor space? Look, you're young, you're a noob, and with every new crop of noobs that stupid ass discussion on defoliation comes up. When are you forum parrots gonna do a little research and gardening realizing that bud sites (fruit, grape clusters, nuts, etc.) do not need direct light nor are they capable of any degree of photosynthesis? 

Red and Far Red light goes thru the canopy, thru the leaves. It's the main spectrum that initiates/controls flowering. Use the search feature here. This topic has been discussed a million times and the science and junk science has been bantered about with every new crop of noobs.

LOOK at the bottom of the plant. Those buds are wider and denser than the top. The buds on these large plants are "shaded" by dark green, healthy leaves, the way it's supposed to be:













And do me a favor, keep this stale topic where it belongs --> https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/692263-defoliation-11.html

This thread is supposed to be about my technique.


thanks,
UB


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## Situation420 (Jul 24, 2013)

Thats fine, thats how its supposed to be, Sometimes however there is excess growth in there and you run into problems. Maybe I'm only having these problems because i have more colas on my plants and you never had to deal with this before.


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## chuck estevez (Jul 24, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Thats fine, thats how its supposed to be, Sometimes however there is excess growth in there and you run into problems. Maybe I'm only having these problems because i have more colas on my plants and you never had to deal with this before.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 24, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Thats fine, thats how its supposed to be, Sometimes however there is excess growth in there and you run into problems. Maybe I'm only having these problems because i have more colas on my plants and you never had to deal with this before.


....and just maybe you don't know what in the hell you're doing.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> ....and just maybe you don't know what in the hell you're doing.


I say your the winner winner of a chicken dinner my ole butt buddy! LOL Kid is just lashing out trying to divert folks attention so they do not see him trying to claw his way out of the hole he dug for himself.


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## Situation420 (Jul 24, 2013)

You can trash talk all you want. I completely understand why you guys disagree and feel your frustration when someone whose been growing for 3 years is trying to tell someone with 30 years experience that they are wrong, or not completely right. I get 1900-2200 grams outa a 9' x 8' area and only using 1500 watts of light. Im all about maximizing profit per square foot, and to do this , I need an even canopy, and lots of main colas. Anything 2 feet or lower from the top of the canopy gets removed, like those little buds that only turn into little poofs of bud, and their extra leaves and branches can be removed because they do not contribute to the harvest, just the humidity and lack of air flow through the plants. I know you know what I'm talking about with what I remove and you guys definitely do the same, you just wont admit it or mention it.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 24, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> You can trash talk all you want. I completely understand why you guys disagree and feel your frustration when someone whose been growing for 3 years is trying to tell someone with 30 years experience that they are wrong, or not completely right. I get 1900-2200 grams outa a 9' x 8' area and only using 1500 watts of light. Im all about maximizing profit per square foot, and to do this , I need an even canopy, and lots of main colas. Anything 2 feet or lower from the top of the canopy gets removed, like those little buds that only turn into little poofs of bud, and their extra leaves and branches can be removed because they do not contribute to the harvest, just the humidity and lack of air flow through the plants. I know you know what I'm talking about with what I remove and you guys definitely do the same, you just wont admit it or mention it.


Those damn Amish strike again......


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## Kite High (Jul 24, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> So when your looking at your plants, and you see that below the canopy that the plants are overgrown and even before flowering, they are choking off air flow and light penetration .Your telling me you would not cut out those overgrown branches inside the plant kite high? (if the option to open up the plant to get more light is not available because of room size)


If you look at my grow pics you will see that this is not something that occurs to my plants. So nope never defoliate and top once when about 2 weeks and then give ail what they want til they done.


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## Situation420 (Jul 24, 2013)

Kite High said:


> If you look at my grow pics you will see that this is not something that occurs to my plants. So nope never defoliate and top once when about 2 weeks and then give ail what they want til they done.


That is what i would rather have rather than have to cut out all the inner growth that otherwise would leave me with a lot of little poofy and airy nugs instead of my nice dense colas i get by pruning that away. I leave all the leaves on the stems that i am keeping, I never take those off, I only remove offshoots from the main stems that never amount to anything. Do you use light movers? I think this is what is causing my overgrowth inside my plants and that is why you guys dont get that problem.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 24, 2013)

And I will stick with the new avatar...Old School still Rules...annuals, plants and fact...


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## Situation420 (Jul 24, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> And I will stick with the new avatar...Old School still Rules...annuals, plants and fact...


 You put me to sleep with your jokes


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 24, 2013)

[video=youtube;eBShN8qT4lk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBShN8qT4lk[/video]


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## Kite High (Jul 25, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> That is what i would rather have rather than have to cut out all the inner growth that otherwise would leave me with a lot of little poofy and airy nugs instead of my nice dense colas i get by pruning that away. I leave all the leaves on the stems that i am keeping, I never take those off, I only remove offshoots from the main stems that never amount to anything. Do you use light movers? I think this is what is causing my overgrowth inside my plants and that is why you guys dont get that problem.


Yes the overhead cmh are each on an intellidrive


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## Situation420 (Jul 25, 2013)

Kite High said:


> Yes the overhead cmh are each on an intellidrive


So what do you think is causing all my overgrowth then?


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## Kite High (Jul 25, 2013)

I probably wouldn't see it as overgrowth. 
1. Put sufficient light below the canopy
2. I put fans blowing up from the floor between each plant as well as minisplit ac, dehumidifier and co2 supplementation as it is totally sealed 5x5x9 height rooms. My 20# tanks average 50 days between changes that how well they are sealed.


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## Situation420 (Jul 25, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I probably wouldn't see it as overgrowth.
> 1. Put sufficient light below the canopy
> 2. I put fans blowing up from the floor between each plant as well as minisplit ac, dehumidifier and co2 supplementation as it is totally sealed 5x5x9 height rooms. My 20# tanks average 50 days between changes that how well they are sealed.


Nice, my tanks only last about 2 n a half weeks, but I also have a 15' x 8' x 7' room . I gotta figure out how to put light below the canopy because the canopy is already so dense. I got the AC, and a dehumidifier isn't needed because the AC is such an efficient Dehumidifier itself.


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## hyroot (Jul 25, 2013)

You have that backwards. Ive done my own side by side several times over the years. More and larger leaves always have a larger yield...there was even a side by side thread in the led section a few months back. Defoliation lost.... its mostly strain dependent. 9 out of 10 strains will yield more with leaves. But sometimes there that ones strain that goes against the grain. Its common sense. Plants use leaves to store energy. Chorolphyll absorbs Various wave lengths of light with different pigments on the leaf. With out stomatas / leaves plants cant absorb light and exchange o2 and co2. Nice try beating a dead horse. You are so wrong ....

Outdated info..... you mean plants have not been growing for millions of years...


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 25, 2013)

hyroot said:


> You have that backwards. Ive done my own side by side several times over the years. More leaf's always have a larger yield... nice try though. Get your facts straight.


I've done side by sides as well and in my experience it doesn't really make a huge difference one way or the other if done properly and results are of course strain dependent. Really depends mostly on your environment.


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## Julius Caesar (Jul 25, 2013)

Cut all the branches off and see if that increases your yield. Maybe you will get one big cola. Hurr duh derp!







Extreme defoliation is a no no. I tried it on my current grow and stunted the shit out of them and now they are taking forever to finish. Listen to Jorge. It's science!

[video=youtube;xYq7CuVpAeo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYq7CuVpAeo[/video]


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## Situation420 (Jul 25, 2013)

Totally agree and have been experimenting with it myself. I found that there are times when you can defoliate the leaves and promote growth, and times when you remove leaves and it stunts growth. I also found that topping at the wrong time can also lead to a decrease in harvest, yet doing it correctly, increases your harvest size. It's a matter of knowing when, where, and what to do.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 25, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I found that there are times when you can defoliate the leaves and promote growth,....


Who you trying to convince? It's botanically impossible to promote growth when you remove the very unit that promotes it....ya hard headed retard.

Stupid is as stupid does.....with every new crop of know-it-all noobs.

UB


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## clydefrog (Jul 25, 2013)

i topped sunday night and my first node buds are still not taking off yet...the shoots from the second node are doing quite well but nothing from below...did i do something wrong?


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 25, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I found that there are times when you can defoliate the leaves and promote growth


Yeah? When is that?


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## genuity (Jul 25, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Yeah? When is that?


on the 2nd sunday of every week...


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## Kite High (Jul 25, 2013)

Please link your proof


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## Kite High (Jul 25, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Nice, my tanks only last about 2 n a half weeks, but I also have a 15' x 8' x 7' room . I gotta figure out how to put light below the canopy because the canopy is already so dense. I got the AC, and a dehumidifier isn't needed because the AC is such an efficient Dehumidifier itself.


during lights out the dehumid and ac work together. Just the ac does not control the rh well enough for my tastes. I like to run 30% or less during flower. Ac will handle it with the lights on but does not run enough in the dark without the heat from the dehumidifier in my rooms.


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## Situation420 (Jul 25, 2013)

Kite High said:


> during lights out the dehumid and ac work together. Just the ac does not control the rh well enough for my tastes. I like to run 30% or less during flower. Ac will handle it with the lights on but does not run enough in the dark without the heat from the dehumidifier in my rooms.


Alright, new question, can you take the water that your dehumidifier takes from he air and add it to your rez, or is that toxic or possibly contaminated with metals


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 25, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I'm still curious about when this time is that taking leaves off of your plant promotes growth..
> I'de like to see these side by sides/proof showing that taking leaves off the plant improves yield. Links would be good.


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## hyroot (Jul 25, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Alright, new question, can you take the water that your dehumidifier takes from he air and add it to your rez, or is that toxic or possibly contaminated with metals


No that's grey water. It will cause leaves to dry out and wrinkle.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 26, 2013)

clydefrog said:


> i topped sunday night and my first node buds are still not taking off yet...the shoots from the second node are doing quite well but nothing from below...did i do something wrong?


You may have a problem with plant vigor then again it may just be the way the plant is playing games with its hormones. I'm sure given a little time the 1st node output will come.


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## Kite High (Jul 26, 2013)

hyroot said:


> No that's grey water. It will cause leaves to dry out and wrinkle.


My peach tree and lawn love it. Grey water is more in line with used bath shower and washer waste water which has soap etc in it. The lawn loves that as well.


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## Situation420 (Jul 26, 2013)

Yup, you get a like, damn im too high to come up with anything else


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## Julius Caesar (Jul 26, 2013)

When the plant is done with the leaf it will wither and fall off and the plant replaces it on its own.

Plants have not been grown indoors for millions of years - and neither has Mr. Scissorhands been chopping them during this evolutionary cycle. Logic sucks huh.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 26, 2013)

Julius Caesar said:


> When the plant is done with the leaf it will wither and fall off and the plant replaces it on its own.
> 
> Plants have not been grown indoors for millions of years - and neither has Mr. Scissorhands been chopping them during this evolutionary cycle. Logic sucks huh.


You are correct. Their so called logic is derived for the sole purpose of backing their claims up.


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## Kite High (Jul 26, 2013)

Please link facts to back your claims. What is being given taught stating the detriment of foliage to plants? Text book quotes? Peer reviewed studies?


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 26, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Foliage becomes a detriment to any plant at a point in its life, what used to store energy at one time in the plants cycle will begin to use energy that could be used farther up the plant.


"Energy"....would that be cosmic, psychic, or temporal?

And there you have it folks, a perfect example of the high tech, new age, "progressive" misguided fluff of this cyber stalking troll.

Look, your insatiable mad-on for me is one thing, but how about contributing something of value once in a while. 

Next......


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 27, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Foliage becomes a detriment to any plant at a point in its life, what used to store energy at one time in the plants cycle will begin to use energy that could be used farther up the plant. Yes your right it is common sense and this is being taught in school right now all over north America. AND...NO Plants have not been grown INDOORS for millions of years, so get your head out of UB's ass and go to school or at least talk to someone that has a clue.





Situation420 said:


> Yup, you get a like, damn im too high to come up with anything else


Situation420 sits back and watches Sir Ganja as he pulls botanical wisdom right out of his ass!


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 27, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Yes your right it is common sense and this is being taught in school right now all over north America.


Since this is the case would you please share the titles of some of the textbooks that are being used?


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## SchmokinOnTrees (Jul 27, 2013)

Now I'm not expierienced or anything but I read what situation was saying about pulling off leaves during the seedling phase. I do it myself and it works. I don't know about hormones but when you pull the leaf off it makes the stem grow faster compared to the rest of the plant as it would normally giving that branch a chance to get longer before it is covered by the canopy. I can't explain why but it's true


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## chuck estevez (Jul 27, 2013)

&#8203;[URL=http://s85.photobucket.com/user/daseahag/media/gay_zps2a31dece.jpg.html][/URL]


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## Kite High (Jul 27, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> My so called claims are backed by solid research available to anyone almost anywhere. Maybe instead of running your mouth you should run your ass into a class or two because your low brow is showing.


Posts links to your proof


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## Situation420 (Jul 27, 2013)

SchmokinOnTrees said:


> Now I'm not expierienced or anything but I read what situation was saying about pulling off leaves during the seedling phase. I do it myself and it works. I don't know about hormones but when you pull the leaf off it makes the stem grow faster compared to the rest of the plant as it would normally giving that branch a chance to get longer before it is covered by the canopy. I can't explain why but it's true


That's what i mean, however, this conversation belongs in the defoliation thread so im gonna comment on it over there, I messed up and posted in here by accident a week ago, and now its a shitfest. not tryin to get things closed down.


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## Situation420 (Jul 27, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Situation420 sits back and watches Sir Ganja as he pulls botanical wisdom right out of his ass!


LMAO no my brain just exploded from the Topping technique that you use, yet somehow you tried to explain hormones to me and plant science...never gonna look at you the same lol. I now see that your a dumbass and happen to know how to grow somewhat. You just don't know why you know how so stop trying to sound like you know wtf your talking about. Plus your setups are all ghetto rigged and sloppy, another sign of being a dumbass, like the sloppy colorer in kindergarden who couldn't stay in the lines. Was this real down below? Also, if so, then how can you say you don't ever defoliate haha




Alexander Supertramp said:


> View attachment 2525050View attachment 2525069
> Now we have 14 tops in a nice neat canopy. The second node had already made it up with the rest, bet it becomes dominant now.
> 
> View attachment 2525077
> ...


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 27, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> That's what i mean, however, this conversation belongs in the defoliation thread so im gonna comment on it over there, I messed up and posted in here by accident a week ago, and now its a shitfest. not tryin to get things closed down.


Dats right. Lets take the shitfest somewhere else. 

Thanks.....


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 27, 2013)

Kite High said:


> Posts links to your proof


I upped your challenge to this blowhard.

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/692263-defoliation-13.html


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 27, 2013)

Yeah, ill drop defol here. but... it seems like any time someone asks one of you for links to your proof you go silent. why?


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## Kite High (Jul 27, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Yeah, ill drop defol here. but... it seems like any time someone asks one of you for links to your proof you go silent. why?


because there is no way to prove bullzhit


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## hyroot (Jul 28, 2013)

Kite High said:


> because there is no way to prove bullzhit


You can gold plate bull shit or throw it like a frisbee. Lol


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## SchmokinOnTrees (Jul 29, 2013)

I think cotton farmers defoliate to enhance the quality of their crop


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## chuck estevez (Jul 29, 2013)

SchmokinOnTrees said:


> I think cotton farmers defoliate to enhance the quality of their crop


 Your really comparing an OUTDOOR crop like cotton to indoor weed growing? they defoliate cotton for specific reasons outdoor

Deciding when to defoliate a crop is an important decision from several stand points. If the crop is defoliated too soon, yields, quality and profits suffer. On the other hand, *depending on the location and the field condition*, delaying defoliation may increase likelihood of additional insect problems, or delaying harvest into *bad weather* which will effect yield and profits. That is why defoliation decisions must be *based on the crop and the crop environment.* Plant maturity is perhaps the most important factor, but other factors such as picking capacity, custom harvesting, and weather are also important.
Defoliation is an important management practice associated with high yields and high quality cotton. The decision as to how and when to remove the leaves and open the bolls appears to be one of the more difficult tasks confronting a cotton grower. *There are so many variables involved that the results of harvest aid applications are often unpredictable and sometimes even undesirable. *You would think that after more than 40 years of research in this area we could obtain desirable results under all circumstances. However, this is not always true, and we often have failures. Thus, defoliation has come to be considered as much art as science.


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## Kite High (Jul 29, 2013)




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## Uncle Ben (Jul 29, 2013)

SchmokinOnTrees said:


> I think cotton farmers defoliate to enhance the quality of their crop


They defoliate (spray) defoliation chemicals via airplane applications when the crop is done so they don't have to screw around with the leaves. A huge combine comes along after the leaves have dropped and collects the cotton bolls.

Spin runs deep......


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## Kite High (Jul 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> They defoliate (spray) defoliation chemicals via airplane applications when the crop is done so they don't have to screw around with the leaves. A huge combine comes along after the leaves have dropped and collects the cotton bolls.
> 
> Spin runs deep......


see them packs of pure sats from Ace dont you bro?


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 29, 2013)

Kite High said:


> see them packs of pure sats from Ace dont you bro?


Zamal is the only one I recognize as being "pure" sativa although the Malawi/Thai hype on Ace is bullshit. I got mine free from Gypsy years ago who brought them back on his person. I discussed it with the breeder. You doing these so called "sativas"? Should be fun!

So Ace ships to the U.S. with no hitches?


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## Samwell Seed Well (Jul 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Zamal is the only one I recognize as being "pure" sativa. Malawi too. I got mine free from Gypsy years ago. You doing these?


too efing funny . . .. 

i love reading your dribble

oh hold on . . .commercial farmer dribble


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## Situation420 (Jul 29, 2013)

uncle ben, how come you dont get pm's? i have a legitimate question


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## hyroot (Jul 29, 2013)

Yeah and basil, rosemary, oregeno, thyme etc.... Are supposed to be debudded not defoliated. You don't want them to flower or it changes flavor. for example if basil flowers. Its leaves taste like sharp cinnamon.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 29, 2013)

[video=youtube;tvKzyYy6qvY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvKzyYy6qvY[/video]


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## Kite High (Jul 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Zamal is the only one I recognize as being "pure" sativa although the Malawi/Thai hype on Ace is bullshit. I got mine free from Gypsy years ago who brought them back on his person. I discussed it with the breeder. You doing these so called "sativas"? Should be fun!
> 
> So Ace ships to the U.S. with no hitches?


I rec'd them through Growshop Alien
Zamaldelica- Malawi x Zamal





Golden Tiger- Meo Thai x Malawi





Malawi-Pure backcross to the Malawi Mom





They look pretty damn sativa to me...yes I will be running them run after next...next up is a run with indie doms and a high cbd strain for making oil


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I rec'd them through Growshop Alien
> Zamaldelica- Malawi x Zamal
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, pure sativa and very nice plants. Was just saying that the original Zamal was bred by this guy, a frenchman who wrote me after Gypsy told him to take a look at my indoor Zamal. Here is the original, unedited response. Can you believe a swing on a sativa? 



> Message from Christophe to Uncle Ben,
> I'll send you 1 picture of Zamal plant; (it's a plant on the left with color lights). It was 4 months old, but I cut him 2 months later. on the picture you can see only the half of the plant. I 'm very surprise because it's the first time I can see Zamal indoor and I wonder if Zamal is a good plant for indoor. I live in Réunion island and the average temperature in the year is 26&#778;; we can breed outdoor all the year; I never plant indoor.
> 
> Few precisions about Zamal (not Zamaal): This sativa (100%) was imported from Madagascar 200 years ago with slaves. Her degree of THC is between 15 and 30% (there are few qualities),
> ...


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> uncle ben, how come you dont get pm's? i have a legitimate question


I recently explained why in several posts, see my Tweaks. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers-86.html


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## Blaze31 (Jul 30, 2013)

I just seen how you did your but I did it like every 3 shoots and ended up with like 30 colas there's 2 main but is it good to do it this way or am I getting to many on it? Last year it did grate but I'm always hear to try new things if it'll better the out come..


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2013)

Blaze31 said:


> I just seen how you did your but I did it like every 3 shoots and ended up with like 30 colas there's 2 main but is it good to do it this way or am I getting to many on it? Last year it did grate but I'm always hear to try new things if it'll better the out come..


You prune or train to suit your whims. I've topped indoor sativas during veg and flower. I'm talkin' like 10 times maybe half that was during flowering. Had to, grew too tall.


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## socaljoe (Jul 31, 2013)

I followed this topping method when my initial plant went in the ground in April. I ended up topping at the third node due to having lost the branches of the first node, which apparently turned out not to make a bit of difference as the new tops grew out just the same, six instead of four. Once the new tops had some good growth, I decided to mess around with LST and tied the new mains down. I'm very impressed with the results, as I have my 4 mains but also several very strong secondary shoots prompted by the LST.

I've come to find that many people take issue with your approach to growing UB, but I've had fantastic results utilizing your advice on topping and feeding, so I can't imagine you're pulling this stuff out of your ass. I find it amazing how little care these plants really need, I water regularly, try not to overfeed, and keep an eye out for pests...as it stands right now, I'm on my way to a successful rookie grow and I have your common sense approach to thank for a large part of it. Just keeping her green and happy.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 31, 2013)

socaljoe said:


> I've come to find that many people take issue with your approach to growing UB, but I've had fantastic results utilizing your advice on topping and feeding, so I can't imagine you're pulling this stuff out of your ass. I find it amazing how little care these plants really need, I water regularly, try not to overfeed, and keep an eye out for pests...as it stands right now, I'm on my way to a successful rookie grow and *I have your common sense approach to thank for a large part of it. Just keeping her green and happy.*


Any one that takes issue to my approach to growing is revealing to others that they don't understand or care about botany and conventional horticulture and probably haven't even grown a plant before. I don't do anything a "normal" farmer, greenhouse manager, plant nurseryman, or master gardener would not do. I am a commercial niche farmer and grow fruits, berries, wine grapes, nuts, and about everything in between like tropical fruits in a greenhouse..... olives, pomegranates, etc. I can not afford to do too many "aw shits". You either do it right or don't do it at all.

Keep 'em green until the end. The more foliage you remove or lose, the less your yields.....pure common sense botanical science.

Glad it's worked out for you, easy peasy, eh?


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## Situation420 (Jul 31, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I recently explained why in several posts, see my Tweaks. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers-86.html


I'm not gonna read all that shittt....haha. I bet it's probably because a million people ask you retarted questions all day and you just get annoyed.


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## socaljoe (Jul 31, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Any one that takes issue to my approach to growing is revealing to others that they don't understand or care about botany and conventional horticulture and probably haven't even grown a plant before. I don't do anything a "normal" farmer, greenhouse manager, plant nurseryman, or master gardener would not do. I am a commercial niche farmer and grow fruits, berries, wine grapes, nuts, and about everything in between like tropical fruits in a greenhouse..... olives, pomegranates, etc. I can not afford to do too many "aw shits". You either do it right or don't do it at all.
> 
> Keep 'em green until the end. The more foliage you remove or lose, the less your yields.....pure common sense botanical science.
> 
> Glad it's worked out for you, easy peasy, eh?


Like so many things in life, it's only as hard as you make it.


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## highlander74 (Aug 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben,
Scotland salutes you!
Followed your advice about topping to try and increase yield for my THC Bomb grow as had been growing auto's before and yields were poor.
I am doing a closet grow so room is tight.
So i topped her just above the 2nd node after 3 weeks veg,gave her a week to recover,then switched the lights.
Low and behold,4 weeks later I have a healthy 4 cola'd plant with two mini branches budding up nicely!Will try n get a pic up soon
Again thank you UB,your are a star!
peace


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 15, 2013)

highlander74 said:


> Uncle Ben,
> Scotland salutes you!
> Followed your advice about topping to try and increase yield for my THC Bomb grow as had been growing auto's before and yields were poor.
> I am doing a closet grow so room is tight.
> ...


Thanks bud and good luck with that! Tonight, I'll imbibe my favorite single malt scotch in honor of you and your country.


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## CarlinistFellow (Aug 16, 2013)

Ok UB, I'm gonna come off like a total idiot, but hopefully this picture will be worth a thousand words. My goal is to get 4 main colas. What is considered the "2nd true node," A, B or neither? Am I counting from the bottom up, and am I counting the node where it's only a single leaf as a "true node?" I promise, I've read and read and read, but this is still confusing the hell out of me.

View attachment 2778982


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## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 16, 2013)

Pinch just above point A....


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## CarlinistFellow (Aug 16, 2013)

Thanks Al. That was my (over)thinking, too, but I appreciate the confirmation of what is probably a very obvious answer to most (just not me, apparently!). Meh, I always sucked at math.


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## Sir.Ganga (Aug 17, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You prune or train to suit your whims. I've topped indoor sativas during veg and flower. I'm talkin' like 10 times maybe half that was during flowering. Had to, grew too tall.


Now...explain to the newbs that follow you blindly what topping 10 times to the same plant does at a molecular level. For that matter topping to early like you suggest. You know better than that...well maybe not. Maybe you should learn to control your environment because overgrowth is a sign only a rookie or lazy ass would make...10 times!....Your a joke.


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## Eno esquire (Aug 17, 2013)

Can u topp during flowering I'm on day 5


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## Kite High (Aug 17, 2013)

Eno esquire said:


> Can u topp during flowering I'm on day 5


Yes it is of no concern that early into transition. Seriously even though not ideal I have had to top several times well into flower with some sativas that just would t stop growing throughout 18 weeks of flower. Sure topping do mj n flower will reduce yield but not like letting them growi to the lights will. Lol. But 5 days after flip its nothing to stress over so kick back and enjoy. Keep "em Green


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## Eno esquire (Aug 17, 2013)

Wow! Thanks for such a fast reply. The reason I want to topp is basically I have a sour deisel that's out growing my other plants. She is about 20 22 inches I have some 18 inches the rest 12 inches can I avoid decreasing yeild by lst training instead of topping


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## Eno esquire (Aug 17, 2013)

I topped the 18 inche plants in vegg I though the sour d was to lanky at the time now it's getting taller and branching out well


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## Sand4x105 (Aug 17, 2013)

Eno esquire said:


> I topped the 18 inche plants in vegg I though the sour d was to lanky at the time now it's getting taller and branching out well


When you 'Top' your plant if your clone skills are good, you can take the top, and trim it and clone it... Good Luck! I do this almost every time I cut the UB way...


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## Stoned Drifter (Aug 25, 2013)

here is where I cut my og kush. this is my 1st time trying this method out. but 3 hours before that I had cut right above the 4th leaf node. is this gonna mess with the hormones from not working correctly? this is where I first cut. right above 4th node.


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## jallen156 (Aug 25, 2013)

Sand4x105 said:


> When you 'Top' your plant if your clone skills are good, you can take the top, and trim it and clone it... Good Luck! I do this almost every time I cut the UB way...


 hey are you still able to top using his method with the clone or do you have to start again from seed to use this method? I know how to do it ive never used the top ive trimmed just planted new seeds. thx


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

Stoned Drifter said:


> View attachment 2791929here is where I cut my og kush. this is my 1st time trying this method out. but 3 hours before that I had cut right above the 4th leaf node. is this gonna mess with the hormones from not working correctly? this is where I first cut. right above 4th node.View attachment 2791932View attachment 2791937


As long as you cut above the 2nd node you'll get 4 main colas. Doesn't really matter if you cut above the 4th node first. Might take a bit longer for the plant to respond but no big deal.


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## jallen156 (Aug 26, 2013)

Hey uncle ben i have a question. Im pretty sure its been answered but i cant find it in the thread, when you top and you use that top as a clone are you still able to use your method on that clone or will it have a different affect? would greatly appreciate help with this thanks


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2013)

As long as you have opposing nodes you'll get the "Uncle Ben Effect".


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## jallen156 (Aug 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> As long as you have opposing nodes you'll get the "Uncle Ben Effect".


 Thank you for that i have a clone and i was wondering if i should have let it grow out or if i should top again..... Guess I'm uncle benning again


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## Wreched75 (Aug 30, 2013)

Hey UB!!! 

Great write up btw!!! I just had a quick question I am pretty sure this has come up but I couldn't find anything. I'm a total newb to this and I see your plants and they look nothing like mine. I got some clones but the leaf nodes do not look like yours. They are staggered and I don't have any alternating can I still cut on the 2nd true node to get 4 colas?


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 31, 2013)

Speaking of vermicompost, worm bins are a piece of cake to assemble. All of those kitchen scraps that you toss out can be turned in to gold for your plants! I started a simple compost bin in my back yard, and started adding veggie/fruit scraps, lawn clippings, twigs, etc. I then made a worm bin out of a 30 gallon rubbermaid container by just drilling some small aeration holes around the perimeter and on the lid.

I found a local company that sells red wiggler worms, and I picked up a pound of them (roughly 1000 worms). I take my partially composted organic material from my compost bin outside, and fill up my worm bin with it .... and in about 2-3 weeks I have dark, rich vermicompost that I use to amend soil with, top dress my plants going in to flower with, and make aerated compost teas with that the ladies absolutely love!! 100% free, organic rocket fuel for my plants!!

Here's a good thread to get you started: https://www.rollitup.org/organics/637587-vermicomposters-unite-official-worm-farmers.html


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## rustyshaclkferd (Aug 31, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Speaking of vermicompost, worm bins are a piece of cake to assemble. All of those kitchen scraps that you toss out can be turned in to gold for your plants! I started a simple compost bin in my back yard, and started adding veggie/fruit scraps, lawn clippings, twigs, etc. I then made a worm bin out of a 30 gallon rubbermaid container by just drilling some small aeration holes around the perimeter and on the lid.
> 
> I found a local company that sells red wiggler worms, and I picked up a pound of them (roughly 1000 worms). I take my partially composted organic material from my compost bin outside, and fill up my worm bin with it .... and in about 2-3 weeks I have dark, rich vermicompost that I use to amend soil with, top dress my plants going in to flower with, and make aerated compost teas with that the ladies absolutely love!! 100% free, organic rocket fuel for my plants!!
> 
> Here's a good thread to get you started: https://www.rollitup.org/organics/637587-vermicomposters-unite-official-worm-farmers.html




Good info thank you . . . Reducing foot print and reclaiming money through recycling is never a bad idea


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 31, 2013)

You bet rusty. I used to buy bottles of this and that, bags of soil, etc often dropping $100's of dollars.

Everything is practically free now. In addition to a free source of compost that you can make yourself, fermented plant extracts can be made out of stuff growing in your backyard such as dandelions, horsetail, comfrey. I've really had my eyes opened to this stuff over the past year, and I can't believe how simple (and cheap) it is, and the difference in the quality of smoke and health of the plants is astonishing. 

Here's an interesting link on some of the benefits of various weeds and plants that you can use for growing marijuana: https://www.frenchgardening.com/tech.html?pid=3164873867231346


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 31, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> You bet rusty. I used to buy bottles of this and that, bags of soil, etc often dropping $100's of dollars


So, you finally learned what I've been practicing for 30 years. You feel you've discovered the new world after pissing off money on crap. Congradulations!

I've done vermicomposting. They are particularly fond of banana peels and shredded B/W newspaper. 

Having said that, everything is a chemical and your statement about chemicals fouling up the micro life is bullshit. Your organics are chemicals. Worms excrete chemicals. You're a hodgepodge of chemicals.....Al Gore. The world is made up of chemicals. Sorry, but drenching your pots with 1 tsp./gallon of Miracle Gro does not destroy micro life, not that you have any way to measure it. You own an electron microscope by chance and have analysed this "life"? 

Organic pesticides are just as poisonous as malathion, some even more so. You just have to learn how to use them. At least malathion returns quickly to the phosphate it was made from and quickly becomes benigh. Get the facts, not the feelings. 

Really don't see the point, nor is it relative to the thread topic. If you want to get on the organic, natural (bullshit) bandwagon, why don't you start your own thread? I'm sure the fate of the western world depends on your newly discovered revelations.

[video=youtube;8Zqe4ZV9LDs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zqe4ZV9LDs&feature=player_embedded[/video]

Topping the Uncle Ben way is not removing foliage. It's a form of training in the very early stages of a seedling's life. You need to read the first page or perhaps someone with more patience could explain the process to you.

Compost is not free. They charge $35/yard here. I get all the horse manure I want free and do my own composting. Well, it's kinda free. I rent a dump trailer and split the rental with a friend. 

UB


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 31, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> So, you finally learned what I've been practicing for 30 years. You feel you've discovered the new world after pissing off money on crap. *Congratulations*!
> 
> I've done vermicomposting. They are particularly fond of banana peels and shredded B/W newspaper.
> 
> ...



You have a very poor grasp of organics, and soil microbiology. Kelp meal, Neem seed meal, rock dusts, worm castings, etc are organic inputs which bacteria and fungi break down, and through death and deification in turn feed the plant or store it within the medium (providing you have a sufficient cation exchange capacity). Dumping Miracle Grow in your soil completely forgoes this process and as a result the bacteria/fungi/hyphae die, or go dormant. Nothing but anaerobic bacteria survive after enough salt builds up in a medium.

I'd like to recommend a book to you. "Teaming With Microbes". I know you will enjoy it. Even an old dog can learn new tricks.

PS- I don't need a microscope to verify what is common knowledge in the world of botany. Try using the google, it is your friend.


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## GandalfdaGreen (Aug 31, 2013)

I think the plant being fed the nutes and circumventing the benes eventually does cause micro genocide. Use it or lose it. I am laughing at the CEC. You biochar nut. Let's all piss on some biochar and make up.


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## JonnyAppleSeed420 (Aug 31, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Nahh, I think I'll pop in regularly to help dispel some of the snake oil that's being pushed here. Dumping chemicals on your plants is no way to treat a lady.
> 
> You guys should look in to amending your own soil. It can be used over, and over again providing you have a good source of compost (or vermicompost). No more need to buy bottles of nutrients, or bags of soil. Just plug and play.... and some of the finest herb you will ever smoke will be the end result.
> 
> Another good thread to check out: https://www.rollitup.org/michigan-patients/583341-so-who-here-growing-true.html


 Been there done that. Since my sickness and retiring I can not take on a full time job like you mention. Some people have physical issues and dirt, mixing, and dust can not be tolerated.


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 31, 2013)

JonnyAppleSeed420 said:


> Been there done that. Since my sickness and retiring I can not take on a full time job like you mention. Some people have physical issues and dirt, mixing, and dust can not be tolerated.


I understand that Jonny. That's a fair point. The nice part is that once you have the soil made, that's it. You can use it for 5, 10, 15+ runs .... and you can just stick another clone right in there and scratch in a couple cups of amendments and some ewc. No till, no heavy lifting, nothing. Just plain ole water. You can even pick up some blu-mats or make your own drip system to further reduce the labor.

I have a friend that rented a cement mixer when he made his soil, and that eliminated a lot of the "work" involved. One day of soil amending, and then it's cruise control after that. You have a roster of billions doing the work for you in your organic soil.

If I lived close by I'd even offer to give you a hand mixing your batch up for you. I actually enjoy it (I'm kind of weird).


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## GandalfdaGreen (Aug 31, 2013)

I love the idea of simply cutting the plant, leaving the roots, planting your seed or clone right next to the old stalk, and move on. That is cool. It gets better with each run. Harness the power of the microherd.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 1, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> I understand that Jonny. That's a fair point. The nice part is that once you have the soil made, that's it. You can use it for 5, 10, 15+ runs ....


15+, eh?  Any reputable organic grower, and that includes me, will strongly advise against recycling your soil. Now, YOU need to read up on soil born pathogens, diseases, pest egg laying cycles, etc. If you can sanitize that soil by holding it at 170F for 15 minutes, then it's safe. I don't know anyone that can pull that off, even using solarization.

There's also the issue of the degradation of the organics, the humus breaking down, creating a poor soil structure. Kinda like coir, it's fine up to a point, then it flat ass disintegrates into mush. 



> I have a friend that rented a cement mixer when he made his soil, and that eliminated a lot of the "work" involved. One day of soil amending, and then it's cruise control after that. You have a roster of billions doing the work for you in your organic soil.
> 
> If I lived close by I'd even offer to give you a hand mixing your batch up for you. I actually enjoy it (I'm kind of weird).


I dump my goodies on a concrete floor and using the bucket of my tractor mix it well, then store in large garbage cans. Next best thing is using a square nosed shovel.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 1, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> You have a very poor grasp of organics, and soil microbiology. Kelp meal, Neem seed meal, rock dusts, worm castings, etc are organic inputs which bacteria and fungi break down,


Don't tell me what I have a grasp on or make pre-mature assumptions based on ignorance and personal arrogance and don't come in my thread with an attitude, or you'll get another Uncle Ben humbling experience. You don't know me. You're another baby opening his eyes for the first time and discovering the old world of organic gardening. Just for you, this is my soil archive that has been passed around forums for 15 years, probably since you were still messin' in your drawers.

Also, I have done experiments and gotten on the kelp bandwagon. I find no real world value in using kelp. I've tried Medina activators/kelp extracts (their plant is near me) and Maxicrop. 



> I use alot of brown sphagnum peat moss, a large bag of Schultz potting mix, and a bag of cheap potting soil (screened to get rid of the chunky stuff) to make up enough for 30 to 40 gallons of a final mix, which I mix on a cement floor using a shovel and store in large garbage cans. To this base which provides humates, an acidic hit, trace elements, etc. and a little silt to tighten up the mix and retain moisture, I add:
> 
> 6 or so cups blood meal, 3 or so cups bonemeal, 4 cups dolomite lime, 1 large bag each of vermiculite and perlite (available at Casa dePOT) and alfalfa meal which contains a hormone called triacontanol (purported to increase vegetable production up to 60%). I buy alfalfa feed pellets from a farm and ranch supply store, put about 4 cups of the pellets in a bucket with a gallon of water and give it a good squirt of Ivory dish soap to cut the surface tension, let it stand for 30 minutes, and then dump the slurry into the mix on the floor. I sometimes add composted horse manure, maybe about 3 or 4 gallons of it. The final, slightly moist soil mix is turned well with a shovel and stored for a couple of weeks in garbage cans to "mellow".
> 
> Uncle Ben


Back off with the tude, stick to solid horticultural facts, don't get pissed if I refute your positions...and we'll get along just fine. 

UB


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 1, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> 1*5+, eh?  Any reputable organic grower, and that includes me, will strongly advise against recycling your soil. Now, YOU need to read up on soil born pathogens, diseases, pest egg laying cycles, etc. If you can sanitize that soil by holding it at 170F for 15 minutes, then it's safe. I don't know anyone that can pull that off, even using solarization.*
> 
> There's also the issue of the degradation of the organics, the humus breaking down, creating a poor soil structure. Kinda like coir, it's fine up to a point, then it flat ass disintegrates into mush.
> 
> ...


Yes, 15. I can point you to a thread (another forum) where there is a journal of a soil being used for that long. Beautiful looking plants. He uses a clover cover-crop (Nitrogen fixing) in between rounds as he lets the beneficials and red wigglers break down his root ball. Then another clone gets plunked right in. Rinse, repeat.

Pathogens, disease, and pests are not an issue if you have IPM's built in to your soil. I use Neem seed meal, crabshell meal, and BTI granules and there isn't a pest in sight.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 1, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Yes, 15. I can point you to a thread (another forum) where there is a journal of a soil being used for that long. Beautiful looking plants. He uses a clover cover-crop (Nitrogen fixing) in between rounds as he lets the beneficials and red wigglers break down his root ball. Then another clone gets plunked right in. Rinse, repeat.
> 
> Pathogens, disease, and pests are not an issue if you have IPM's built in to your soil. I use Neem seed meal, crabshell meal, and BTI granules and there isn't a pest in sight.


Before I planted a niche crop on my farm, I spent thousands of dollars on contract labor and seed and planted legumes and cover crops - Madrid yellow sweet clover, Elbon rye and Hairy vetch, 3 years in a row.

Pathogens, diseases and pests are always an issue, IPM's, IBM's or BM's. Sounds like you're pissing off your money after falling into the trendy organic cult movement. There's no such thing as "IPM's built into your soil." IPM or Integrated Pest Management is a means to an end that includes both organic and synthetic (conventional) inputs to farming or gardening. 

If you think some crabshell meal or other stuff is gonna ward off springtails, fungus gnats, nematode, pythium, phytophora and such...... 



> He uses a clover cover-crop (Nitrogen fixing) in between rounds as he lets the beneficials and red wigglers break down his root ball. Then another clone gets plunked right in. Rinse, repeat.


Yeah, rinse, repeat, water and there you have it folks, a pot full of dead wigglers because some gungho "organic" pinhead just drowned his worms. And to plant a cover crop in a pot is absurd. Cover crops and worms belong outdoors in a vegetable garden or farmland.

Yeah, give me a link, I'm curious. 

UB


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## Singlemalt (Sep 1, 2013)

Hey UB...
Started reading this thread a couple weeks ago. Thought I'd try it, check out the pics. Seedling is White Bubba bagseed that was sown on 7-25-13. I germinate indoors in a dedicated cabinet under 4 100 watt CFL 
5000k. Popped on 7-28-13. Germinate in soil in tiny lil pots, and then transplant to 3" after 8-9 days old. Transplant to 6" pot around 21 days. Here is the progression to today: dates in pic name
#1 WB on 8-21-13
#8 WB on 9-1-13

As you said one can see it kicking in (branching) within 3 days. Today I decided to space it out a tad, kinda train it to a candelabra effect. Anyway thought it was cool and gives me something to do in retirement lol

Forgot: cut between 2nd and 3rd node to go for 4 colas. Note on the very bottom node, one branch is lagging far back


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 1, 2013)

Looking good! It should grow to a candelabra profile on its own, FWIW.

Good luck,
UB


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## lympford (Sep 1, 2013)

what kind of plant is it? and what nutes are you using?


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 3, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Before I planted a niche crop on my farm, I spent thousands of dollars on contract labor and seed and planted legumes and cover crops - Madrid yellow sweet clover, Elbon rye and Hairy vetch, 3 years in a row.
> 
> Pathogens, diseases and pests are always an issue, IPM's, IBM's or BM's. Sounds like you're pissing off your money after falling into the trendy organic cult movement. There's no such thing as "IPM's built into your soil." IPM or Integrated Pest Management is a means to an end that includes both organic and synthetic (conventional) inputs to farming or gardening.
> 
> ...


Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Crabshell meal, neem seed cake/meal, and BTI granules are all effective, organic IPM's. Chitin is the important component of crabshell meal. It triggers the plants defense response, and helps ward off pests and disease. $10 for a box that will last you forever. BTI (Bacillis thuringensis_) _is a beneficial bacteria that gnat larvae eat.... and then die. It can be found at any big box retailer like Home Depot. $7. Neem seed meal, in addition to being a great source of N, is also one of the best IPM's you can find due to the fact that it acts as an anti-feedant and growth hormone regulator for pests. $10 for a 5lb bag.

Here's where you want to order the neem from: http://www.neemresource.com/OnlineOrder.html

Here's a little info on chitin: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866471/

Some info on BTI granules: http://www.ghorganics.com/BTI_For_Fungus_Gnats.htm 

Here's a link to a recycled organic living soil picture thread. All of these plants were grown with recycled soil, using cover crops and most with a layer of mulch (indoor, in containers). Most don't add worms to their pots. A few babies and cocoons get in there when adding home made worm castings and they do just fine (because we aren't dumping chemicals on them)



I read your thread years ago. I've done the synthetic fertilizers (miracle grow, JR Peters, fox farms, etc), I've done the hydro, and hands down the best results come from amended organic soil that is recycled. It also happens to be the cheapest way. You are stuck in the mud, and couldn't handle the shot to your ego to concede that there just might be a better way of doing things than "Uncle Bens" way (like you invented anything in this thread). Not saying that you can't grow nice plants dumping synthetic fertilizers on your girls, you just aren't realizing the full potential of your genetics.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 3, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> .....Here's a link to a recycled organic living soil picture thread. All of these plants were grown with recycled soil, using cover crops and most with a layer of mulch (indoor, in containers). Most don't add worms to their pots. A few babies and cocoons get in there when adding home made worm castings and they do just fine (because we aren't dumping chemicals on them)


Monkey see monkey do. 

May the chitin gods infest your armpits with a thousand crabs.

UB


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 3, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Monkey see monkey do.
> 
> May the chitin gods infest your armpits with a thousand crabs.
> 
> UB


I'm not here to get my ego stroked like you.

I'm only interested in growing the best marijuana possible. Organically amended soil produces better results than your JR Peters.

End of story.


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## Pats Against NFL (Sep 3, 2013)

Just want to thank Uncle Ben for the information. Even though I have not quite perfected the technique yet I am getting there. Getting 2 without issue, just not 4 yet but practice makes perfect they always say and boy am I looking forward to the "PRACTICE"!!!


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## Impman (Sep 3, 2013)

All you did was post internet links you D-bag monkey on skates.... what education do you speak from? UB can site a U... not internet links to something some 12 year old in North Korea probably posted to fuck with you.


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 3, 2013)

Impman said:


> All you did was post internet links you D-bag monkey on skates.... what education do you speak from? UB can site a U... not internet links to something some 12 year old in North Korea probably posted to fuck with you.


I'm posting links because a) UB asked for them, and b) he is apparently clueless as to some pretty basic things.

If you want to jump in here then feel free to contribute something other than grade school insults. Weak sauce


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 4, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm posting links because a) UB asked for them, and b) he is apparently clueless as to some pretty basic things.
> 
> If you want to jump in here then feel free to contribute something other than grade school insults. Weak sauce


You're clueless when it comes to being on topic. OK, I played along with your newbie know it all..... bull-in-a-china store approach. I conveyed my vast experience with organics which includes farm ag based, not some silly cult like affinity by some newb discovering something for the first time in his life. Yes, the world is round.

Also, I never asked for links. I asked for *a* link to the idiot that claims he grows cover crops and raises wigglers in pots, which is pretty damn stupid and impractical if you ask me and quite creepy. Who wants to drown worms? They're animals. They belong in the ground not in some stoner's potting soil. Sheesh, only in pot forums! AGAIN, let's see a link to this guy's journal. If I have to register to view, don't bother. 

I doubt if anyone is really interested in your organic and natural revelations. I'm not. Been there, done that.

Run along and play with that little red wiggler of yours, and while you're slapping it around a bit.....might as well start your own thread in the organics forum. The fate of the western world depends on it.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 4, 2013)

Pats Against NFL said:


> Just want to thank Uncle Ben for the information. Even though I have not quite perfected the technique yet I am getting there. Getting 2 without issue, just not 4 yet but practice makes perfect they always say and boy am I looking forward to the "PRACTICE"!!!


You're welcome. Sometimes the top 2 will become dominant but usually if you top above the 2nd true node all 4 will be dominant. Reference the first page pix.

Here's an exception and a photo I've never posted before. It is a O. Haze topped to get 4 main colas. Notice the heavy crotch and girth on the top 2 colas? They are very dominant compared to the 2 main colas below them. Notice the effect of topping the dominant ones again? From one came 2....from that came another 2, etc.







*Haze male destroyed:*


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## Kite High (Sep 4, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm not here to get my ego stroked like you.
> 
> I'm only interested in growing the best marijuana possible. Organically amended soil produces better results than your JR Peters.
> 
> End of story.


Bullshit. You wouldn't be able to tell d diff in the smoke if I did organic and jacks grown clones.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 4, 2013)

Kite High said:


> Bullshit. You wouldn't be able to tell d diff in the smoke if I did organic and jacks grown clones.


Yep. A chemical is a chemical is a chemical......

Hey dude, sup? Hope that wildfire smoke AND dangerous conditions aren't blowing your way!


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 4, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You're clueless when it comes to being on topic. OK, I played along with your newbie know it all..... bull-in-a-china store approach. I conveyed my vast experience with organics which includes farm ag based, not some silly cult like affinity by some newb discovering something for the first time in his life. Yes, the world is round.
> 
> Also, I never asked for links. I asked for *a* link to the idiot that claims he grows cover crops and raises wigglers in pots, which is pretty damn stupid and impractical if you ask me and quite creepy. Who wants to drown worms? They're animals. They belong in the ground not in some stoner's potting soil. Sheesh, only in pot forums! AGAIN, let's see a link to this guy's journal. If I have to register to view, don't bother.
> 
> ...




My apologies. I thought I posted this the first time. Again, this is all recycled organic soil. The member "Gascanastan" has pics from a soil that he has been re-using for 8 runs now. He does indeed use cover crops in his pots, along with a layer of mulch. I already explained to you though that the worms are not included in the containers. Those are in separate containers/bins. 

http://forum.seeddepot.nl/showthread.php?5303-Organic-Eye-Candy-Post-your-ROLS-pics-here


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 4, 2013)

Kite High said:


> Bullshit. You wouldn't be able to tell d diff in the smoke if I did organic and jacks grown clones.





I transitioned from what you're doing, to organically amended soil with some reluctance. It looked a lot harder than just measuring out a few teaspoons of "nutrients". I did it though because I have sick patients that I grow for, and I wanted to make sure I was providing the very best meds possible for them. I am very happy that I took the plunge. Night and day difference. Every one of my patients have commented on how much more smooth the smoke is, how much better it tastes and smells, and how much more potent it is as well. The difference is stark.

You do what you're doing, and I'll continue trying to produce the best buds possible. There should be no ego in this game. It's about the plant, and learning to cultivate it the best way possible. To think that you know it all and can't learn anything new is unfortunate.


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 4, 2013)

Uncle Ben, I am going to duck out of this thread. I'm rocking the boat here a bit, and that's not cool. I don't like some of the stuff I've seen you post (unrelated to marijuana), but ultimately this is your thread and I will respect your right to post what you want. We can also agree to disagree on the best way to grow this plant. I am still learning, and will never stop learning, but for now I am happy with the direction I am going, as I'm sure you are too.

I threw out a few jabs at you, and for that I apologize. Best of luck with your garden


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## chuck estevez (Sep 4, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Uncle Ben, I am going to duck out of this thread. I'm rocking the boat here a bit, and that's not cool. I don't like some of the stuff I've seen you post (unrelated to marijuana), but ultimately this is your thread and I will respect your right to post what you want. We can also agree to disagree on the best way to grow this plant. *I am still learning,* and will never stop learning, but for now I am happy with the direction I am going, as I'm sure you are too.
> 
> I threw out a few jabs at you, and for that I apologize. Best of luck with your garden


right, your the freshman trying to tell the professor how to do his job.


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 4, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> right, your the freshman trying to tell the professor how to do his job.


Well, I've been at this a while, but I am still learning. I would say the same thing in 20 years if I'm still growing at that point.

Isn't that what life is all about?


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## chuck estevez (Sep 4, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Well, I've been at this a while, but I am still learning. I would say the same thing in 20 years if I'm still growing at that point.
> 
> Isn't that what life is all about?


that may be what your life is about, mine is cocaine and hookers,lol


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 8, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> ....I am very happy that I took the plunge. Night and day difference. Every one of my patients have commented on how much more smooth the smoke is, how much better it tastes and smells, and how much more potent it is as well. The difference is stark.


Placebo effect. "Organic and natural", the hype sells but once in a while the dummies do get caught with their "plants" down witness the Penn and Teller Organic Bullshit video.


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## lilroach (Sep 8, 2013)

Uncle Ben,

Is there any "snake oil" that you feel lives up to the hype? I can't imagine ALL pot-specific nutrients and additives are bogus.


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## Kite High (Sep 8, 2013)

lilroach said:


> Uncle Ben,
> 
> Is there any "snake oil" that you feel lives up to the hype? I can't imagine ALL pot-specific nutrients and additives are bogus.


the ingredients are all that matters...what he is saying is retaining the most foliage healthy and green until harvest and this is done by feeding the plant properly till the end with N rich ratios

Lemme put it this way, the snake oils that do nothing matter nothing at all and of the few that may, a non canna brand will offer the same ingredients for much less money....but first and foremost ENVIRONMENT ENVIRONMENT ENVIRONMENT

Because to be quite honest the fertilizers are the LEAST contributor to the scene. It is the whole picture, control of temps,rh, air movement proper lighting and intensity all must be optimally controlled before you could could tell what effect the fertilizers are having

No there is no bottle nor bottles that will make you have a great grow nor be a great grower


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## Kite High (Sep 8, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> I transitioned from what you're doing, to organically amended soil with some reluctance. It looked a lot harder than just measuring out a few teaspoons of "nutrients". I did it though because I have sick patients that I grow for, and I wanted to make sure I was providing the very best meds possible for them. I am very happy that I took the plunge. Night and day difference. Every one of my patients have commented on how much more smooth the smoke is, how much better it tastes and smells, and how much more potent it is as well. The difference is stark.
> 
> You do what you're doing, and I'll continue trying to produce the best buds possible. There should be no ego in this game. It's about the plant, and learning to cultivate it the best way possible. To think that you know it all and can't learn anything new is unfortunate.


sorry but organic being in anyway superior
to other methods is pure make me feel good bullshit hype. I never claimed to knowitall but I do know quite abit. Now I am not knocking "organic". You have the power to change this by presenting clear peer reviewed botanical study results that substantiate your claims as all the data I have found and read on the topic the resultswere it could not be determined which samples were grown which way.


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## cannawizard (Sep 8, 2013)

Organic isn't superior, its just a different method handling the npks/micros/bbs~ I still use synth foliars in feedings, maybe just every 3wks or so. But I agree, all the organic hype is just that, hype.. growing with ACTs/in "super" soils instead of using (ex dynagro -- won't ensure your plants are any "safer" in-regards to inhalation/digesting/drinking of the flowers (or) any of the plants usable parts hehe ~

.2s


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## papajohn (Sep 8, 2013)

ub have you ever done your double harvest practice outdoors?


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 8, 2013)

papajohn said:


> ub have you ever done your double harvest practice outdoors?


All the time. Why wouldn't I? You still get popcorn type buds at the bottom for outdoor grown pot. Check my posts on this in the defoliating threads.


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## papajohn (Sep 8, 2013)

whats the most weight in oz have you ever harvested from a single plant??


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## Kite High (Sep 9, 2013)

papajohn said:


> whats the most weight in oz have you ever harvested from a single plant??


11 pounds southern Louisiana outdoor on a levee on the water side ...
``no ferts no hand watering....wasa skunkseed....the bottom trunk stalk was bigger than my ankle

1984...lost about 2/3 of the other plants to *Botrytis...am sure some ofr your grape clients would be pleased UB lol
*


indoors? 1 pound and a little over an ounce 

Your move


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2013)

Kite High said:


> *Botrytis...am sure some ofr your grape clients would be pleased UB lol*


There would be no Sauternes without the noble rot ....Foie Gras with poached pear (poached in Sauternes) and think cut crispy bacon....BOOM!


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 10, 2013)

Kite High said:


> ....1984...lost about 2/3 of the other plants to *Botrytis...am sure some ofr your grape clients would be pleased UB lol
> *


Sucks, doesn't it! Funny, but this was the first year I had no botrytis. That's the good news. Bad news is I lost 70% of my crop to raccoons even though I netted. Couldn't keep the verocious thieves out. Finally trapped and shot them. Animals and birds will do damn near anything to get a a food source when drought has ravaged their water and food sources. Woodpeckers will find a gap in the netting around the vines/poles as they hike up up the vine. Every try to catch woodpecker bare handed? It hurts! 

Don't let your babies grow up to be farmers.


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## Kite High (Sep 11, 2013)

Them damned mocking birds were fuckingme up.


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## hemphopper (Sep 11, 2013)

Hi and sorry for no pictures but I' really happy to say that I have 2 lovely candidates for cutting above node 2. This my first grow under HID light. I've grown indoors on and off since 1975 but always fluoro. Anyhow I have 2 AK48 plants from seed that have exploded. Using Roots original Organic soil and started the seedlings in 1 liter airpots - the ones that are held in shape with a plastic thumbscrew. Anyhow the larger of the 2 has just developed node 7 and the smaller one is working on node 6. I transplanted them to 3 gallon smartpots yesterday and could not believe the vigorous root systems. The larger plant was showing a pale to yellow pale color on the oldest leaves (they are 2.5 weeks from germination). I started a mild feeding with Dyna-grow and Dynagro Protekt. I think they needed some nitrogen beyond what's in the Roots Organic. They are under 20-4 of 400W Metal Halide. I hope I can read these plants and see them through to a decent harvest. They both are very short and bushy with nice looking branches underway so I think the 4 cola topping technique is going to work nicely. I'll post some pics as time goes on. Have Fun - I am


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## hemphopper (Sep 12, 2013)

pictures- topped one on right will top other one in a day or so. very tight node spacing


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 12, 2013)

hemphopper said:


> pictures- topped one on right will top other one in a day or so. very tight node spacing


Are those Rootmaker pots?


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## JonnyAppleSeed420 (Sep 12, 2013)

Snake oil....funny shit! _JAS_


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## Singlemalt (Sep 12, 2013)

Progress update from post #4928 on 9-1-13. White Bubba topped on 8-21-13; transplanted to ceramic bonsai pot on 9-8. Cloned the top when I cut, it rooted and went under flowering regimen today. If it turns out to be female it will become a mother


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## hemphopper (Sep 13, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Are those Rootmaker pots?


Those are the little pots in the background. They are supposed to aid in root development and I'd have to say they work. Thank you for the plant stress link. I may well have over watered because I was afraid that the soil was drying out as the superoots pots have holes all around the sides. Also, because the bottom of the pots had large openings I put a disc of newspapers in the bottoms, I found when transplanting that there was some pooled water in the bottoms - my fault, the newspaper=bad idea. One nice thing about the superoots pots (available in many sizes) is that when upcanning you just undo the screw and the sides and bottom fall away leaving the root mass intact. I knew it was probably time because roots had penetrated the newspaper. I'd like to know when to start fertilizing. The Roots Organic soil seems to be "charged" but I don't want to deprive the plants. I have Dyna-Gro 9-3-6 and a bottle of their bloom fertilizer also. Last thing I want to do is "over-do". Thanks for your inspiration!


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 13, 2013)

hemphopper said:


> Those are the little pots in the background. They are supposed to aid in root development and I'd have to say they work. Thank you for the plant stress link. I may well have over watered because I was afraid that the soil was drying out as the superoots pots have holes all around the sides. Also, because the bottom of the pots had large openings I put a disc of newspapers in the bottoms, I found when transplanting that there was some pooled water in the bottoms - my fault, the newspaper=bad idea. One nice thing about the superoots pots (available in many sizes) is that when upcanning you just undo the screw and the sides and bottom fall away leaving the root mass intact. I knew it was probably time because roots had penetrated the newspaper. I'd like to know when to start fertilizing. The Roots Organic soil seems to be "charged" but I don't want to deprive the plants. I have Dyna-Gro 9-3-6 and a bottle of their bloom fertilizer also. Last thing I want to do is "over-do". Thanks for your inspiration!


I have tropicals in Rootbuilder. Check them out. Buy a 105' roll and make your own using cable ties. If you have a good root system and a lot of foliage, don't worry about over watering them, especially in RootMaker pots. Of course every time you water you flush out some of the nutrient salts.

Good luck......


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## scotgeek (Sep 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben, I could do with an experts advice on this, I was examining my babies with a view to using your 4 chola topping technique and on one of my plants noticed the following. At each node on the stem, instead of the usual 2 leaves and shoots on opposite sides of the stem, this plant has 3 leaves and shoots at each node , all the way up from the cotyledons. Currently 7 nodes high therefore has 21 side branches. I did not therefore wish to chop it back to the 2nd node and my intention is to pinch the grow tip to generate a pair of main cholas and take cuttings from this plant b4 putting to flower to see if this 3 branch stem pheno will repeat on cuttings. If it does might this not be worth progressing. The plant is also the most vigorous out of 10 seedlings(skunk#1) all nice and bushy. expert thoughts would be appreciated guys


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 16, 2013)

scotgeek said:


> Uncle Ben, I could do with an experts advice on this, I was examining my babies with a view to using your 4 chola topping technique and on one of my plants noticed the following. At each node on the stem, instead of the usual 2 leaves and shoots on opposite sides of the stem, this plant has 3 leaves and shoots at each node , all the way up from the cotyledons. Currently 7 nodes high therefore has 21 side branches. I did not therefore wish to chop it back to the 2nd node and my intention is to pinch the grow tip to generate a pair of main cholas and take cuttings from this plant b4 putting to flower to see if this 3 branch stem pheno will repeat on cuttings. If it does might this not be worth progressing. The plant is also the most vigorous out of 10 seedlings(skunk#1) all nice and bushy. expert thoughts would be appreciated guys


Got some photos?


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## scotgeek (Sep 16, 2013)

will have in 10 mins


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## scotgeek (Sep 16, 2013)

pics of 3 shoot node plant


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## scotgeek (Sep 16, 2013)

p.s. feminised seeds used


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 16, 2013)

scotgeek said:


> pics of 3 shoot node plant


You already have mature foliar output in the nodal axis. Top and those become your main colas.

Good luck!


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## scotgeek (Sep 16, 2013)

yeah I have topped already, just on the top node though for 2 cholas, my main query was if it might be worth trying to keep the 3 branch node strain going with cuttings, I guess I'll know when this plant goes to harvest, your thoughts anyone?


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## 420 forever (Sep 17, 2013)

4 Colas-Win!! What can I say, but Ben knows his stuff! White Widow Fem Hempy grow


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 18, 2013)

Easy peasy, eh. The real challenge - come flowering time keeping the plant healthy and green, full of foliage until harvest. That's the best any one can do.

I see you're using Canna stuff. Be careful, watch for premature leaf drop.

Good luck


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## prosperian (Sep 18, 2013)

Yeah, you don't have to trim leaves and topping the way UB suggests works. Keeping it green all the way to harvest without trimming using amended soil. Nothing but water and a little molasses for the last 128 days. I'm at 57 days 12/12 right now. I harvested a white lavender tri-node last week at 2.5 oz. dry. Using a 160 watt LED and 24" fluros down below. 

You wouldn't think I'd get light penetration with all the green foliage but I do, and it works! Keep it green folks!


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 18, 2013)

Looking good!


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## simisimis (Sep 18, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Easy peasy, eh. The real challenge - come flowering time keeping the plant healthy and green, full of foliage until harvest. That's the best any one can do.
> 
> I see you're using Canna stuff. Be careful, watch for premature leaf drop.
> 
> Good luck



damn.. my friend got canna nutes, and all flowering was fighting leave drop.. good to know


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## ilikebigcolas (Sep 18, 2013)

Ok Im a little confuse here..Now i let my seedling get 5 - 6 nodes high and the cut the stem off just above the second node right? Does that mean the seedling goes back to being only 2 nodes high and they start to grow again? I messed up then because i thought you meant the top it when it gets its second node and i did that to a few of my babies. I did not know you let your plant grow so tall and then take all that growth away and bring it back down to a 2 node seedling


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## 420 forever (Sep 18, 2013)

Just checked back and I swear they expanded overnite. I am using DynaGro and Protek only on these widows for now, the canna was for a Moby Dick Auto I was experimenting with.

So Far, from Ben, I have taken to Hempy Pots, and his "Topping for 4 Colas" has worked wonder and these widows took off FAST. Nice thick stems, perfect green shade. They LOVE the Dynagro for sure


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## 420 forever (Sep 18, 2013)

From his Sticky:
*Selecting the point for topping to get 4 main colas - 

To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node. The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count. The result will be a redistribution of the auxins and other hormones that normally collect in the tissue of the terminal leader's tip. These ho moans will be redistributed to dormant buds that reside in the nodal axis where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk", below the cut. The new foliar output response will be quick (within 24 hrs., see photo below) if you have a healthy growing seedling and will be your future main colas - 4 instead of the usual 1:*


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## HeartlandHank (Sep 19, 2013)

420 forever said:


> So Far, from Ben, I have taken to Hempy Pots, and his "Topping for 4 Colas" has worked wonder and these widows took off FAST. Nice thick stems, perfect green shade. They LOVE the Dynagro for sure


I ran 7-9-5 and 9-3-6 for a while... i threw out the Bloom after one grow with it. the happiest healthiest mj plants i have grown were from Dyna. 
Yeah, I agree. MJ loves Dyna.


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## thecoolman (Sep 20, 2013)

HJavnt yo uguys noticed reducing the N late in veg helps with the taste


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## Dogenzengi (Sep 20, 2013)

Called a Trifoilate!
I have one growing, mine got stunted do to overcrowding.


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## NewtoMJ (Sep 21, 2013)

Uncle Ben, my last (which was also my first) grow I read almost every thread where your name appeared, tried to follow your advice as diligently as I could. My results were the best flowers i've ever consume, and an incredible 3.4oz's off of an autoflowering plant (although, it wasn't auto after 6 weeks I went to 12/12). That plant was untrained, and I use an LED light which as i've been seeing does much better with trained plants of even canopies. What are your thoughts on the main-line technique? Is it credible, or just a modified version of your 4 cola technique with the first node removed for clones and the rest topped out to more?


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 21, 2013)

NewtoMJ said:


> Uncle Ben, my last (which was also my first) grow I read almost every thread where your name appeared, tried to follow your advice as diligently as I could. My results were the best flowers i've ever consume, and an incredible 3.4oz's off of an autoflowering plant (although, it wasn't auto after 6 weeks I went to 12/12). That plant was untrained, and I use an LED light which as i've been seeing does much better with trained plants of even canopies. What are your thoughts on the main-line technique? Is it credible, or just a modified version of your 4 cola technique with the first node removed for clones and the rest topped out to more?


Glad it worked out for you and thanks for following along. This one has a few tidbits - https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/630319-defoliation-yes-no-techniques-20.html

Like I said before, I don't do anything any other conventional, 'normal' gardener would not do. I do botany and use a common sense approach. It's ironical that the practices which are so prevalent here are so out of the norm, so wacked out, that a normal botanically sound approach is foreign. 

Having said that, I don't know what mainlining is (and probably don't want to).  Sounds like another gimmick to me like FIM. "Super" this and that, "massive"...blah blah blah.

Good luck,
Tio


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## chuck estevez (Sep 21, 2013)

thecoolman said:


> HJavnt yo uguys noticed reducing the N late in veg helps with the taste


NOPE, total B.S., My stuff tastes better than ever.I run N all the way to the end.


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## chuck estevez (Sep 21, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Glad it worked out for you and thanks for following along. This one has a few tidbits - https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/630319-defoliation-yes-no-techniques-20.html
> 
> Like I said before, I don't do anything any other conventional, 'normal' gardener would not do. I do botany and use a common sense approach. It's ironical that the practices which are so prevalent here are so out of the norm, so wacked out, that a normal botanically sound approach is foreign.
> 
> ...


 There is a thread on mainlining over at RM3, It really seems like a lot of work and makes veg times a lot longer. But it was cool to look at how the guy trained his plants.


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## Nizza (Sep 21, 2013)

basically what mainlining is , is using the 2 top method and then when those 2 tops grow, splitting it again, and again, most do it until 16 or 32. IMO only 1 topping is needed and anything after that you're just increasing veg time, you're right UB, you'd prolly flip your shit if you saw what people do to their babies, although they do turn out to look cool, they call it "even distribution, like a manifold" c ((taken from nugbuckets mainlining tutorial))http://www.growweedeasy.com/main-lining-technique-nugbuckets ((notice the defoliation! )

Only reason i'd do this technique is if i was doing a big outdoor grow with not a lot of helpers; the mainlining helps promote solid colas and will decrease trim time; expect a 2-3 month veg though... ((i usually have 2-4 week veg after clone indoors)


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 21, 2013)

thecoolman said:


> HJavnt yo uguys noticed reducing the N late in veg helps with the taste


What if it's P? What if it's the cannaboid/terpene/tars profile of a particular plant that drives the perceived taste on your palate and lungs?


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 21, 2013)

Nizza said:


> basically what mainlining is , is using the 2 top method and then when those 2 tops grow, splitting it again, and again, most do it until 16 or 32.....


Like SCROG, sounds like too much maintenance for this here bendejo.  

To each his own......


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## Nizza (Sep 21, 2013)

i agree, i have trouble waiting the 2-3 months to flower a plant.. I can't imagine spending 2-3 months just vegging and training lol. But from what i understand it has to do with management and is a preferred method for a lot of outdoor medicinal growers. they like to use that hortitrellis stuff and all these other fancy things. I still dig the old school stuff ben but the budologist has this outdoor mainlined plant  which i can see helping with neighbors seeing plants above the fence and whatnot, as well as making such a large plant accessible from the ground..

Not to say i do it, i like the simple 4 top or 2 top methods more, but i realize how useful this method could be , in certain circumstances.

heres the budologists grow link so i can cite that it is indeed, his pic https://www.rollitup.org/subcools-old-school-organics/629348-budologists-2013-organic-outdoor-super-39.html

Man i love weed!

oh yeah i got some feminized big bud seeds from vision seeds and i was wondering what it may turn out like. It says its a 60% indica 40% sativa mix , and was hoping for any input ! Thanks!! I plan on 4 or 2 topping these seeds and making them into mother plants, and doing a SOG type grow.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 21, 2013)

Of course, you do what you have to do. I do VSP (vertical shoot positioning) with grapevines but that's because we have to.

When I can flower a pot plant within 4 weeks of a seed germinating and don't have to be a slave to some training method, why bother?


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## Nizza (Sep 21, 2013)

wow i was actually able to rep u lol. not that it matters, but thank you for sticking around here and keeping people on the right track.

http://www.ristcanyonvineyards.com/html/tip5.html interesting stuff man, i love growing things. Its one of my hobbies that I do in my off time, i come on riu a lot and just read about whatever looks interestring.. I've learned so much and It's all so interesting I really can't wait to get a good size property to farm on

oh yeah any input on the big bud ceeds i got??


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## thecoolman (Sep 21, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> What if it's P? What if it's the cannaboid/terpene/tars profile of a particular plant that drives the perceived taste on your palate and lungs?


Not sure what your talking about ben P as in phosphorous or P as in piss I was talking about nitrogen
/terpene/tars profile....Isnt this what usually drives the taste


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 21, 2013)

Nizza said:


> oh yeah any input on the big bud ceeds i got??


If you're fishing for input whether or not they'll do fine as multiple main colas, there should be no problem.

Good luck!


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 21, 2013)

thecoolman said:


> Not sure what your talking about ben P as in phosphorous or P as in piss I was talking about nitrogen
> /terpene/tars profile....Isnt this what usually drives the taste


There seems to be some paradigm that N during flowering results in a harsh taste. I doubt if that's true. I'd say taste is driven by the cannabanoid profile that no one ever addresses. They just do this feel good parroting thing. Seasoned growers are getting off the bloom food drills and giving their plants what they need until harvest - plenty of N to support leaf health.


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 23, 2013)

Hey UB, hows it going? Nice thread. I fully read the first 25 to 30 pages, skimmed the next 450 (I like to read but damn!) lol And fully read 490 to 500. Up to speed I think.

I have clones with the same staggered nodes as the pics in post #4914 page 492. (sorry can`t take pics of mine at the moment) Mine are shorter, and a bit more foliage. My question is using 2nd pic in that post as example, he is pointing above the 2nd node. If I cut above the 4th node, will the 3rd and 4th node branches "act" as 2 main cola branches? In turn, will 2nd node branch keep up and be a nice cola too?

Also would like to add that all the tops are nice and healthy, and I plan on using them as new cuttings for next veg. I guess just hoping if I cut all the way down to above the 4th I will still get some nice tops from 3rd and 4th node branches, already formed. 

In your opinion on staggered node plants is it better to try it that way, or just top closer to the top of plant? (also trying to keep the vertical in check as a few of them are sativa)


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## chris chronic (Sep 24, 2013)

damnit its late for me to do this now but next time for sure thanks for the info!


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## scotgeek (Sep 26, 2013)

pics of one I "topped" using UB's 4 chola method. Plant has done as predicted , 4 cholas from the main stem, I then trained thise 4 stems to the outside edge of the pot, just string lol. Two were growing a fair bit faster than the other two so i again topped the vigorous branches to let the other two catch up a bit. from those two toppings one gave a double chola and the other threw out a triple. Having kept the original 4 chola stems horizontal out to the pot edge the branches started to grow vigorously vertically and have totally filled in the centre space betewwn the 4 main stems. This plant is one of a batch of 10, the other nine ar under 12/12 now and are growing well. this topped specimen was chosen because it was the runt of the seedlings and i figured the least gamble with this method but since being treated in this way the plant is much more vigorous, bigger leaves, thicker stems, faster growth, much more so than the other 9.
p.s. the two small pots contain cuttings which have now rooted, taken from the original"topping" from this plant, so even the growth topped off is'nt wasted . cool no?
much respect going out to UB


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## JonnyAppleSeed420 (Sep 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> There seems to be some paradigm that N during flowering results in a harsh taste. I doubt if that's true. I'd say taste is driven by the cannabanoid profile that no one ever addresses. They just do this feel good parroting thing. Seasoned growers are getting off the bloom food drills and giving their plants what they need until harvest - plenty of N to support leaf health.


Actually... Nitrogen loading in the later stages of flower can and does effect thrich. production. This is the reason for dropping your nitrogen levels before the 4th or 5th week. I have seen it first hand..._JAS _


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## Alexander Supertramp (Sep 26, 2013)

JonnyAppleSeed420 said:


> Actually... Nitrogen loading in the later stages of flower can and does effect thrich. production. This is the reason for dropping your nitrogen levels before the 4th or 5th week. I have seen it first hand..._JAS _


Please share the reason then. We are all for hearing the science behind such claims.


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## chuck estevez (Sep 26, 2013)

JonnyAppleSeed420 said:


> Actually... Nitrogen loading in the later stages of flower can and does effect thrich. production. This is the reason for dropping your nitrogen levels before the 4th or 5th week. I have seen it first hand..._JAS _


 Sir Ganja??? You have the same backassward answer for everything, you have seen it huh? I have seen no such thing, so what now?


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## JonnyAppleSeed420 (Sep 26, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> Sir Ganja??? You have the same backassward answer for everything, you have seen it huh? I have seen no such thing, so what now?


 Read a lot of his posts...so thanks! I'll take that as a compliment. Unbiased information is what most people come here for. 



Alexander Supertramp said:


> Please share the reason then. We are all for hearing the science behind such claims.


You have never heard of Nitrogen loading? Well then its back to basics for you. I may be new to this site but not to your antics...get your own information...that the only way you will believe it anyways! _JAS_


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## chuck estevez (Sep 26, 2013)

JonnyAppleSeed420 said:


> Read a lot of his posts...so thanks! I'll take that as a compliment. Unbiased information is what most people come here for.
> 
> You have never heard of Nitrogen loading? Well then its back to basics for you. I may be new to this site but not to your antics...get your own information...that the only way you will believe it anyways! _JAS_


 Right, I tried the high p/k techniques and did o.k., then switch to nothing but 9-3-6 and doubled my quality and quantity. Splain that,Sir Ganja????


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## chuck estevez (Sep 26, 2013)

Last post By Sir Ganja was on 8-29 https://www.rollitup.org/search.php?searchid=25884715 

First post by this sock puppet was on, You guessed it, 8-29, Sorry Sir Ganja, you have been busted.
https://www.rollitup.org/gardening/714065-10-000k-rated-light-question.html#post9538186


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## chuck estevez (Sep 26, 2013)




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## Uncle Ben (Sep 26, 2013)

Change gears, Lumi aka Kite High, real name Max, died 9/23/2013 leaving a very distraught loving widow, Doe. He died of numerous medical complications including cancer and was a pillar to the cannabis community and a friend to many here at RIU.

RIP, Max......


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## chuck estevez (Sep 26, 2013)

I didn't know lumi was kite,so sad.


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## lilroach (Sep 26, 2013)

RIP Kite. My prayers are with your friends and family during these hard times.


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## Dboi87 (Sep 26, 2013)

I hope his posts are always kept up in remembrance. He always had some good knowledge to share. One of my faves.

R.I.P. Lumi...


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## thecosmicgoat (Sep 27, 2013)

Some pictures of my topped girls.


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## simisimis (Sep 27, 2013)

UB and others, what are your opinions on topping above 3rd or 4th node and then defoiling lower part of a plant leaving only 2 upper nodes for 4 main colas?

I was thinking since leaves drives production, so If I'd leave upper part with 5 and 7 leaflet leaves instead of lower 1 and 3leaflets, prune bottom and bury stem up to 3rd node while upcanning maybe that would produce more vigor? Somehow I sometimes see some slower or mutated growth on the 1st 1leaflet node colas. As if auxins being not that evenly distributed. But then again if those 4 colas would be at 3rd 4th node, maybe I would see same mutations or slower growth on a 3rd node... 
In this example I would not be willing to clone the top I cut off.
Thanks


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 27, 2013)

simisimis said:


> UB and others, what are your opinions on topping above 3rd or 4th node and then defoiling lower part of a plant leaving only 2 upper nodes for 4 main colas?


Don't really see the merit but try it and see what you get. You can always bury the trunk when you upcan to induce more root production. I always do.


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 27, 2013)

Morning UB. Any thoughts on my post on page 500?


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 27, 2013)

alien mushroomhead said:


> Morning UB. Any thoughts on my post on page 500?


Staggered nodes? We have addressed this a lot. You must have opposing nodes for this to work like it should.


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## JonnyAppleSeed420 (Sep 27, 2013)

simisimis said:


> Somehow I sometimes see some slower or mutated growth on the 1st 1leaflet node colas. As if auxins being not that evenly distributed. But then again if those 4 colas would be at 3rd 4th node, maybe I would see same mutations or slower growth on a 3rd node...


 This is exactly what I was talking about, asked UB to explain...Didn't get an answer, just got ram rodded by his slew of cronies he called in to muddy the waters. The mutation is caused by an imbalance of hormones due to an early top. Topping 7-10 days before flower allows for proper re-growth and doesn't reek havoc on their cycle. I know...I know...Im a newb and I don't know anything...and all that...try a side by side and see for yourself which girl looks happier and healthier before putting into flower.


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## chuck estevez (Sep 27, 2013)

JonnyAppleSeed420 said:


> This is exactly what I was talking about, asked UB to explain...Didn't get an answer, just got ram rodded by his slew of cronies he called in to muddy the waters. The mutation is caused by an imbalance of hormones due to an early top. Topping 7-10 days before flower allows for proper re-growth and doesn't reek havoc on their cycle. I know...I know...Im a newb and I don't know anything...and all that...try a side by side and see for yourself which girl looks happier and healthier before putting into flower.


Now that we know you are SIR GANGA, you gonna start another new puppet account? If you want to hide from us, you need to stay out of the flushing/advanced nute threads, it's a dead giveaway, again lmfao


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## JonnyAppleSeed420 (Sep 27, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> Now that we know you are SIR GANGA, you gonna start another new puppet account? If you want to hide from us, you need to stay out of the flushing/advanced nute threads, it's a dead giveaway, again lmfao


Did this Sir Ganga rape you or something? Man you got a real hard on for this gentleman. From what I see he put you in your place a few times. I won't embarrass you for everyone to see like he did. I don't have too everyone knows what your all about. _JAS_


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## chuck estevez (Sep 27, 2013)

JonnyAppleSeed420 said:


> Did this Sir Ganga rape you or something? Man you got a real hard on for this gentleman. From what I see he put you in your place a few times. I won't embarrass you for everyone to see like he did. I don't have too everyone knows what your all about. _JAS_


You have been caught SIR GANGA, everyone knows you're a loser who has to hide when he doesn't win. You aren't fooling anyone but yourself. LMFAO


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Staggered nodes? We have addressed this a lot. You must have opposing nodes for this to work like it should.


Yeah man, I understand that it needs to be opposing nodes to work exactly as you do it. My Question is, if I cut above the 4th and there are 1" to 3" branches already growing at the 3rd and 4th...will those branches grow up to be big tops? (not talking monsters just big) ...Or If I try it down there, will it make those branches or even the whole plant grow weird or stunted?

If so I will just make the cut closer to the top of plant and have more branches left to work with. I can tell this subject has been beat to death, but just wondering if it would be worth it, or safe to cut that low with the staggered node clones. Anyway I will be doing it later tonight if UB or anyone else has any advice. Thanks in advance.


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## simisimis (Sep 27, 2013)

Well from what I've seen on my plants, going for more than 4 colas auxins get distributed unevenly, so some colas start growing up, some grow very slow. Even four colas you need to pull one and release another constantly checking them to form an even looking crown. 8 colas would be too difficult to make all even. 
But somebody has to confirm or deny this, cause I'm still new at growing, just using common sense..


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## HeartlandHank (Sep 28, 2013)

simisimis said:


> Well from what I've seen on my plants, going for more than 4 colas auxins get distributed unevenly, so some colas start growing up, some grow very slow. Even four colas you need to pull one and release another constantly checking them to form an even looking crown. 8 colas would be too difficult to make all even.
> But somebody has to confirm or deny this, cause I'm still new at growing, just using common sense..


I am a big fan of controlling the rate of growth through removing lower growth sites... I get 1 top and 7-8 side branches that top out just 2 inches below the main cola. buds are the same size whether on the main cola or the side branch.... I should put something together, thread.

Basically, it get s 6-8 colas... no topping involved.


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## HeartlandHank (Sep 28, 2013)

JonnyAppleSeed420 said:


> \asked UB to explain...Didn't get an answer, just got ram rodded by his slew of cronies he called in to muddy the waters.


 Blah blah blah




JonnyAppleSeed420 said:


> The mutation is caused by an imbalance of hormones due to an early top. Topping 7-10 days before flower, *in my garden,* allows for proper re-growth and doesn't reek havoc on their cycle. I know...I know...Im a newb and I don't know anything...and all that...try a side by side and see for yourself which girl looks happier and healthier before putting into flower.


There, fixed it for you.
From what I remember, you have some design/garden issues that, for example, wouldn't quite make that statement true, for some others gardens...


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 28, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> I am a big fan of controlling the rate of growth through removing lower growth sites... I get 1 top and 7-8 side branches that top out just 2 inches below the main cola. buds are the same size whether on the main cola or the side branch.... I should put something together, thread.
> 
> Basically, it get s 6-8 colas... no topping involved.


That's some pretty good common sense. Some are going to be more vigorous, some less. The higher up you top a plant the bushier it becomes but also the "smaller the fruit".


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## JonnyAppleSeed420 (Sep 28, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> From what I remember, you have some design/garden issues that, for example, wouldn't quite make that statement true, for some others gardens...


 Design and garden issues? I design and service gardens, greenhouses and rooms. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. All rooms are different, all growers are different but that doesn't mean you can't replicate someone else's results. Sad you have been duped by the misinformation spouted by these trolls and you fell for it. My suggestion to you is get off these sites, do some reading and learn from your mistakes, because following some of these guys on here only hurts a newb or anyone too lazy to do their own research. _JAS_


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## chuck estevez (Sep 28, 2013)

JonnyAppleSeed420 said:


> Design and garden issues? I design and service gardens, greenhouses and rooms. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. All rooms are different, all growers are different but that doesn't mean you can't replicate someone else's results. Sad you have been duped by the misinformation spouted by these trolls and you fell for it. My suggestion to you is get off these sites, do some reading and learn from your mistakes, because following some of these guys on here only hurts a newb or anyone too lazy to do their own research. _JAS_


says the guy hiding behind a new screenname. Funny thing is, it was your backassward ideas that gave you away. You are giving the term troll a whole new level.


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## chuck estevez (Sep 28, 2013)

Oh and watch, Now that he has been exposed, he will fly off the handle with all kinds of insults.


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## HeartlandHank (Sep 28, 2013)

JonnyAppleSeed420 said:


> Design and garden issues? I design and service gardens, greenhouses and rooms. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. All rooms are different, all growers are different but that doesn't mean you can't replicate someone else's results. Sad you have been duped by the misinformation spouted by these trolls and you fell for it. My suggestion to you is get off these sites, do some reading and learn from your mistakes, because following some of these guys on here only hurts a newb or anyone too lazy to do their own research. _JAS_


I'm not even sure whose _misinformation_ you are claiming that I am spewing, Sir Ganga.

1) You design and service greenhouse, rooms and gardens... ahem,... Bullshit.
2) All I said was that your 7-10 day rule is something that works for your plant, your room, your way of growing... 

Don't you defoliate? You can't even really compare your plants to mine... especialy when talking "recovery times", Sir Ganga..


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## JonnyAppleSeed420 (Sep 28, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> I understand that Jonny. That's a fair point. The nice part is that once you have the soil made, that's it. You can use it for 5, 10, 15+ runs .... and you can just stick another clone right in there and scratch in a couple cups of amendments and some ewc. No till, no heavy lifting, nothing. Just plain ole water. You can even pick up some blu-mats or make your own drip system to further reduce the labor.
> 
> I have a friend that rented a cement mixer when he made his soil, and that eliminated a lot of the "work" involved. One day of soil amending, and then it's cruise control after that. You have a roster of billions doing the work for you in your organic soil.
> 
> If I lived close by I'd even offer to give you a hand mixing your batch up for you. I actually enjoy it (I'm kind of weird).


If you are getting that much use then I see the work load would be a lot less for sure. Most of my growers have health issues and I really have never promoted soil due to my though on workloads...Maybe someone else would enjoy the process...Thanks for opening up my mind a little. I will research it a little more and put into my arsenal for the next patient..._JAS_


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## HeartlandHank (Sep 28, 2013)

Hey, Sir Ga.... I mean Johnny... can we some plants? Put up a duece with it... so we know it is yours...

If you think you can produce the same results with any plant... I question your experience. Sounds like the words of someone who grew a hybrid or two and jumped on RIU to play big boy...

I have plants that I put into flower, barely any roots, cut it in half (top) once... I have plants that I don't do a damn thing too, hug root mass, tons of foliage (except remove growth that would be otherwise laying in dirt).


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## JonnyAppleSeed420 (Sep 28, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> If you think you can produce the same results with any plant... I question your experience. Sounds like the words of someone who grew a hybrid or two and jumped on RIU to play big boy...


 I don't think...I know! Why would you think any differently? Can you only grow one species? You may think you know me but your way off (you wish you knew me). I have read this sirganga many posts and I see why you think its me...he is a real grower with real information with a real degree, that showed the world, your circle jerks friends for what they are...posers. Don't be another poser...think for yourself, do your own research and learn from your mistakes. This is what a true botanist does..._JAS_


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 28, 2013)

Get lost SirTrollsAlot!

View attachment 2839325


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## chuck estevez (Sep 28, 2013)

JonnyAppleSeed420 said:


> I don't think...I know! Why would you think any differently? Can you only grow one species? You may think you know me but your way off (you wish you knew me). I have read this sirganga many posts and I see why you think its me...he is a real grower with real information with a real degree, that showed the world, your circle jerks friends for what they are...posers. Don't be another poser...think for yourself, do your own research and learn from your mistakes. This is what a true botanist does..._JAS_


 If you think ANYONE is going to believe you aren't sir backasswards, you are even Dumber than your growing advise.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 28, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> If you think ANYONE is going to believe you aren't sir backasswards, you are even Dumber than your growing advise.


He has no growing advice. Check this nonsense out - https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/728616-heat-lumens-stress-plant.html#post9657066


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 28, 2013)

UB- I know your busy with all the rabble rousting there seems to be on this thread, and I don`t want any part of that. Don`t know if you saw my last post on page 502 #5020. I tried to explain it a little further than before. I waited and have not did my topping yet in effort to get some solid input. 

I`m not a noob, nor an expert. Just trying to get positive feedback from someone who has clearly done more topping than me. If I have to have plants from seed with opposing nodes to get advise on this thread, just say the word and I will look elsewhere. Thanks, and have a great day.


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## jacksthc (Sep 28, 2013)

simisimis said:


> Well from what I've seen on my plants, going for more than 4 colas auxins get distributed unevenly, so some colas start growing up, some grow very slow. Even four colas you need to pull one and release another constantly checking them to form an even looking crown. 8 colas would be too difficult to make all even.
> But somebody has to confirm or deny this, cause I'm still new at growing, just using common sense..


yeh your right 8 colas or even 12 colas is easy to pull off with some extra veg time and pulling the side branches down to get all the colas level and evenly spaced


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## Dboi87 (Sep 28, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> I am a big fan of controlling the rate of growth through removing lower growth sites... I get 1 top and 7-8 side branches that top out just 2 inches below the main cola. buds are the same size whether on the main cola or the side branch.... I should put something together, thread.
> 
> Basically, it get s 6-8 colas... no topping involved.


Hell yea! Do that shit.


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## Dboi87 (Sep 28, 2013)

alien mushroomhead said:


> UB- I know your busy with all the rabble rousting there seems to be on this thread, and I don`t want any part of that. Don`t know if you saw my last post on page 502 #5020. I tried to explain it a little further than before. I waited and have not did my topping yet in effort to get some solid input.
> 
> I`m not a noob, nor an expert. Just trying to get positive feedback from someone who has clearly done more topping than me. If I have to have plants from seed with opposing nodes to get advise on this thread, just say the word and I will look elsewhere. Thanks, and have a great day.


I know you rather Tio answer, but if the nodes are not opposing each other the growth wont have the uniformity of a plant with opposing nodes. Doesn't mean it'll hurt your ladies. You just won't have 4 uniform colas. Hope I helped


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## HeartlandHank (Sep 28, 2013)

Damn, sorry you all witnessed my pissy-fit there, the last few pages. My oldest pet got sick, almost lost him yesterday morning.... so I took it out on ol' Sir Ga... I mean Johnny.

So, I apologize.. for the pissyness... I _try _to keep it civil around here.

That aside, Johnny, you're totally full of shit dude... I can smell you from here.
I'll play nice and all... but, I'm not buying what you are selling dude.

Why not just go back to Sir Ganja? The troll we all love to hate... 

C'mon... go back to Sir Ganja...


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 29, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> I know you rather Tio answer, but if the nodes are not opposing each other the growth wont have the uniformity of a plant with opposing nodes. Doesn't mean it'll hurt your ladies. You just won't have 4 uniform colas. Hope I helped


Thanks for the response Dboi87. Yeah I know it wont be uniform, but I can bend and train them to be more level with each other if needed. Just trying to make sure they don`t mutate in a bad way or something crazy. I have never topped that low. seems like a good way to keep em shorter for slightly longer veg. Thanks again man.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 29, 2013)

alien mushroomhead said:


> Thanks for the response Dboi87. Yeah I know it wont be uniform, but I can bend and train them to be more level with each other if needed. Just trying to make sure they don`t mutate in a bad way or something crazy. I have never topped that low. seems like a good way to keep em shorter for slightly longer veg. Thanks again man.


It's not going to hurt anything. Topping doesn't stress the plant nor will it induce mutation or hermies. You've been reading too much into some of the bullshit buzzwords around here like LST. 

At the inside point of the petiole axis, that would be the inside point of attachment of the leaf petiole to the trunk or a branch, there resides a dormant bud. With the right inducement, usually hormonal, it will become active whether above (foliar) or below ground (roots). So, if you cut above the 1st node or the 8th, it shouldn't matter, you'll get output at the axis at the upper limit due to the affect of apical dominance and most likely get output below it. You just need to experiment, do some cutting, and go from there. I grow fruit trees and when one or more branches gets out of profile, too leggy, in comparison to the overall shape of the tree, I top it back.

If you just HAVE to have 4 main colas, then start from seed with opposing nodes and get after it. "My way" is not necessarily "the right way", it's just what kind of plant response I'm after, what I like, and is damn consistent and predictable. I can almost guarantee you 100% that if you cut above the first node you'll get 2 main colas. Done it dozens of times.

Good luck,
UB


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## Nizza (Sep 29, 2013)

say i grow a ceed, then top the ceed, and take that top as a clone to make 2 or 4 main colas... will that topped clone grow opposing nodes and be a candidate for a 2 or 4- cola plant, and also, can you keep doing this ? (if you can)


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's not going to hurt anything. Topping doesn't stress the plant nor will it induce mutation or hermies. You've been reading too much into some of the bullshit buzzwords around here like LST.
> 
> At the inside point of the petiole axis, that would be the inside point of attachment of the leaf petiole to the trunk or a branch, there resides a dormant bud. With the right inducement, usually hormonal, it will become active whether above (foliar) or below ground (roots). So, if you cut above the 1st node or the 8th, it shouldn't matter, you'll get output at the axis at the upper limit due to the affect of apical dominance and most likely get output below it. You just need to experiment, do some cutting, and go from there. I grow fruit trees and when one or more branches gets out of profile, too leggy, in comparison to the overall shape of the tree, I top it back.
> 
> ...


First let me say thanks for the more detailed response than I have been getting from you. So you know I`m not some noob that discovered growing when I found this site. Shit man I have been bending tops way before I ever came to this site...LST is it? I am however constantly evolving and tweaking methods I use. I have got good ideas from this thread, as well as others. I have 10 clones to work with so I do plan to experiment. Some cut low, some higher up.

I don`t HAVE to have 4 main colas. I realize the plants have to be from seed to have the uniform look from the opposing nodes. At the moment all I have are clones. Have been running same strain for about 3 years and it`s always been great smoke. Just trying to increase yield and get the most per plant possible. Also not all that excited about messing with seeds for a while. Still trying to recover from a bad seed episode. Trusted some seeds from a friend and they turned out to be hermie prone and infected my girls. Suffered some really heartbreaking losses.

Anyway man thanks for the knowledge- alien


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## Dboi87 (Sep 29, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Damn, sorry you all witnessed my pissy-fit there, the last few pages. My oldest pet got sick, almost lost him yesterday morning.... so I took it out on ol' Sir Ga... I mean Johnny.
> 
> So, I apologize.. for the pissyness... I _try _to keep it civil around here.
> 
> ...


Sounds like your pet pulled through? Hope all is well


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 29, 2013)

Yeah, Heartland Hank, as an animal lover and rescuer of those abused or neglected, I hope all is well with you and your best friend. Good on ya!


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## papajohn (Sep 30, 2013)

ub i've realize that all your grows are standard in height and full of bud production,does that mean 8ft/tall plants produce smaller fruits?


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 30, 2013)

Not really. You can get pounds of bud off of outdoor grown sativas. Mexicans do it every year.


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## Singlemalt (Oct 2, 2013)

Progress update: white bubba from post 4928 on 9-1-13: put under flowering mode on 9-12-13. Isn't she just the cutest lil thing?


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## Jimmy Luffnan (Oct 5, 2013)

Hi Uncle Ben, 
Long time no chat, but I see you have PM's disabled now 
I apologize if this is a little off the topic of 'topping for colas' but I would think you are a budding scientist with a thirst for experimentation and I was seeking perhaps confirmation through your experiences ^^

Ive been experimenting with apical dominance through training of scrog and also horizontal lst/supercropping.
As you are already well aware, auxins change and devote their efforts to the pinnacle of the tops which is why scrog is quite successful.

With your technique, you take the single dominant and make it into 2 or 4.

My query is if you have ever seen what happens when you create a 4 (or 2) cola plant, let veg a little and then remove one of the dominant tops..... do the other 3 tops become larger than previously with the 4?

I almost think of it more as a 'lollpop' technique where the lower branches are removed to divert energy to the apical dominant.

To be more forthcoming of my experimentation, I supercrop a 3ft plant over to 90 degree and horizontally stake.
All of the branches change direction and become apical through auxins.
What Im seeing is that when I remove 50% of the apical tops (1 from every node) the apical tops that remain actually become larger than if all the tops were left and the plant actually yields more...

Have you had any experience that coincides with this?

Cheers Jimmy.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 5, 2013)

Sorry I haven't read through the entire thread, but does topping actually produce more than bending? Also, would it be better to top where stem is thickest and trim the bottom one or maybe two nodes?! Thnx in advance.


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## welshwizzard (Oct 12, 2013)

Going to give this a blast tonight I think. My babies are only about 8in tall anf have a fair few sets stacked really close together so going to top above second set of proper jagged leaves and see what happens!


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 12, 2013)

Jimmy Luffnan said:


> My query is if you have ever seen what happens when you create a 4 (or 2) cola plant, let veg a little and then remove one of the dominant tops..... do the other 3 tops become larger than previously with the 4?


Depends. Any time you top, anywhere, you will get foliage output from the node areas, remember?



> I almost think of it more as a 'lollpop' technique where the lower branches are removed to divert energy to the apical dominant.


Right, and my grandparents used to sucker their maters. 



> To be more forthcoming of my experimentation, I supercrop a 3ft plant over to 90 degree and horizontally stake.
> All of the branches change direction and become apical through auxins.
> What Im seeing is that when I remove 50% of the apical tops (1 from every node) the apical tops that remain actually become larger than if all the tops were left and the plant actually yields more...


I train grapevines using VSP - Vertical Shoot Positioning. Read up on that.

When you bend a shoot over prostrate style all new output becomes dominant. Case in point, here's an avocado branch:



Cannabis has dormant buds only in the axils of the nodes. Stuff like avocados have dormant buds along a branch or its trunk. 

Good luck with your experiments!


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## drekoushranada (Oct 12, 2013)

This came out pretty good.


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## Jimmy Luffnan (Oct 17, 2013)

Thanks Ben!
I knew I had seen this technique used on a commercial/common level before.... the ol' vineyard 
I was most likely to plastered on wine and rolling around with an equally plastered young vixen to remember  lol

I love having fun with experimentation, stops my hobby getting stale 

Doesn't matter to me if I succeed or fail in my science, as long as I understand why 

Cheers Jimmy.


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## drcucumber (Oct 22, 2013)

Why not top (at node 6 for example), and then remove the bottom 4 branches instead of the top 4 (as in topping at node 2).
You would be left with the same number of main colas, plus 4 more sets of fan leaves.


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## oakgrowth1 (Oct 27, 2013)

So I cut my girl down to get three main branches. This resulted in the 3 main branches plus many smaller wanna be branches.
I am trying to decide weather or not to prune all the small starts and keep with original plan of three main stalks or to embrace the bushy growth. What do you think? Three main branches or bushy? Positives and negatives of both would help me think this through. Hashberry-dirt-2hps150's+ 4flourescent tubes.


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## nachooo (Oct 30, 2013)

Hello Tio Ben, I am an old spanish grower with about 25 years of growing experience, first of all sorry about my english. I have no time to read all this long post, and I want to ask you about some thoughts I have regarding your technique.
First one is, Can I top the plants at the 3 node..let them develop the 6 branches for some days until the branches from the first (lower) node achieve some size to use them as clones, then cut this 2 lower branches and let the plant with the remanent 4? Will this modification affect to the development of the 4 main colas?
the second question is about a practice I usually do when I top the plants for whatever reason..heigh problems etc... What I do when I top, is remove only the growing tips and let the big fans still in the trunk..my thought has always been that those big leaves doesnt have to be removed (except for shadow issues) and they may still work for the plant. Regarding your technique, lets say that instead of toping all the remaining plant over the second node...remove only..the apical growing tip..and all other little lateral growing tips until the second node, but leave the big leaves intact attached to the topped trunk.. my point is...well that big leaves are new leaves..not senescens..lets stay them there for a while, the plant invested a lot building them..the little growing tips are the auxin points and are removed.. so lets dont remove for a while that big leaves.. a benefit of this could be that the plant would need less time to recover and grow in general would be better. What are your thoughts on this?
Well I hope you understad what I write..., again sorry about my english. I have to tell you that after 25 years of growing and experimenting with all kind of things, at the end I have come with the same conclusions that you write in this forum...like more nitrogen in flowering times, snake oil products in all growshops, importance of regular seeds, and of course simplification is the key to success. And I have to say you big thanks not only for confirm my thoughts, and your lore about growing but also for introduce me to the Dyna Grow nutrients....
Muchas gracias Señor.
Nacho from spanish Pyrenees


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 30, 2013)

nachooo said:


> First one is, Can I top the plants at the 3 node..let them develop the 6 branches for some days until the branches from the first (lower) node achieve some size to use them as clones, then cut this 2 lower branches and let the plant with the remanent 4? Will this modification affect to the development of the 4 main colas?


Hola. Not sure why you would want to do that. Try it and see if you like the results.



> the second question is about a practice I usually do when I top the plants for whatever reason..heigh problems etc... What I do when I top, is remove only the growing tips and let the big fans still in the trunk..my thought has always been that those big leaves doesnt have to be removed (except for shadow issues) and they may still work for the plant. Regarding your technique, lets say that instead of toping all the remaining plant over the second node...remove only..the apical growing tip..and all other little lateral growing tips until the second node, but leave the big leaves intact attached to the topped trunk.. my point is...well that big leaves are new leaves..not senescens..lets stay them there for a while, the plant invested a lot building them..the little growing tips are the auxin points and are removed.. so lets dont remove for a while that big leaves.. a benefit of this could be that the plant would need less time to recover and grow in general would be better. What are your thoughts on this?


Really have no opinion. Try it and report back with your results.

Buenas suerte and welcome to the forum.


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## nachooo (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks tio Ben, in the first case I want to do it to obtain 2 clones instead the one I got if I use the original technique, and cause I always have more problems rooting this kind of clones, and lateral branches worked better for me.

In the second case it seems logical to me to maintain only the leaves...more energy for the plant I think

Thanks again


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## Impman (Nov 1, 2013)

I bought a couple clones that are about 14-16 inches tall. They have not been topped. The nodes did not really come out in pairs but alternated .... in the OP pic the nodes are a symetrical pair shooting out. Also, there is quite a bit of stretch between nodes..about 2 .5 inches. If i cut at the second node I will be topping off about 6 inches of plant and several leaves. .... can I still top a clone this mature? shit.... hold for pic if thats not enough info..... I need to download the new RIU App for for 1.99. $! good job RIU finally, I canuse this ipad for pics BRB for pic

NM its only for androids


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## plaguedog (Nov 2, 2013)

Impman said:


> I bought a couple clones that are about 14-16 inches tall. They have not been topped. The nodes did not really come out in pairs but alternated .... in the OP pic the nodes are a symetrical pair shooting out. Also, there is quite a bit of stretch between nodes..about 2 .5 inches. If i cut at the second node I will be topping off about 6 inches of plant and several leaves. .... can I still top a clone this mature? shit.... hold for pic if thats not enough info..... I need to download the new RIU App for for 1.99. $! good job RIU finally, I canuse this ipad for pics BRB for pic
> 
> NM its only for androids


This method is intended for plants from seed (as stated over and over again) so your results will vary with a clone. Probably won't get exactly 4 colas.


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## Impman (Nov 2, 2013)

I am keeping them all natural then, I will use the up canning tek though when its time


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## Impman (Nov 2, 2013)

plaguedog said:


> This method is intended for plants from seed (as stated over and over again) so your results will vary with a clone. Probably won't get exactly 4 colas.


Read the first paragraph of the OP. It literally says clone. the word clone is right there.


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## plaguedog (Nov 3, 2013)

FFS...lol.......


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## plaguedog (Nov 3, 2013)

Impman said:


> Read the first paragraph of the OP. It literally says clone. the word clone is right there.


I've read the whole fucking thread, Imp, and this method is intended for plants FROM seed. I'm not going to read it for you and post links to the numerous times throughout this thread this has been pointed out. Do your own homework. I realize it says clone, but results will vary as pointed out throughout the thread. I have tried it on clones and you don;t always get just four shoots or two. 

You will get dependable results on plants from seed. That was my point. Do what ever the fuck you want to do, they are your clones...

What I should really say is if you have a clone that has direct opposing nodes you should get dependable results, if they are alternating nodes (like most clones from a mature mother) the results will vary.

Sorry for the mixup, hopefully UB's post below will clear it up.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 3, 2013)

Yes, seeds will give you the best (easiest to obtain) results only because folks have trouble switching a plant's growth mode from mature (alternating nodes) to juvenile or opposing nodes.

OK, I've posted this several times here but I'll do it again. I wrote a FAQ to clear up any misunderstandings and first posted it at another forum. Here it is:

*FAQ

Q - Is your technique effective with a clone?

A - Only if the cutting (clone) has opposing nodes. Don't expect to get 2 or 4 main colas if the nodes are alternating. You're manipulating the plant's hormonal processes aka "apical dominance". The plant will redistribute the auxins equally to dormant foliar buds.

************************************

Q - Will this work on a landrace, indica OR sativa, and what about hybrids?

A - The hormonal processes, redistribution of auxins, work the same whether you have a sativa, afghan (indica) or your typical mutt.

************************************

Q - Can I cut above the 3rd or 4th node?

A - You can, but you won't get the same effect regarding bulked up main colas. I came up with this simple technique in order to increase main cola production from 1..... to 2 or 4. If you want alot of bud sites and a bushier plant, then top at say.....the 8th node, but, that's not my technique as described.

************************************

Q - I don't want to stress my plants. How long will this set my plants back?

A - There is no stress involved like underwatering a plant or giving it too much heat or light. They will respond with new output where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk" within 24 hours. If not, you have a cultural issue that you need to address. 

************************************

Q - You say to wait until the plant has 5-6 nodes before topping. Why?

A - That is only a guide to insure you have an established, well growing plant with a good root system. 3 nodes or 8, it's your call.

************************************

Q - Can I root the cutting?

A - Of course.

************************************

Q - What's a node??

A - Get outta here! *


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## Impman (Nov 4, 2013)

plaguedog said:


> I've read the whole fucking thread, Imp, and this method is intended for plants FROM seed. I'm not going to read it for you and post links to the numerous times throughout this thread this has been pointed out. Do your own homework. I realize it says clone, but results will vary as pointed out throughout the thread. I have tried it on clones and you don;t always get just four shoots or two.
> 
> You will get dependable results on plants from seed. That was my point. Do what ever the fuck you want to do, they are your clones...
> 
> ...


^^^^ Do my own homework. Stop brown nosing , its lame. I askedif if can hack off 8 inches of plant down to the second node. thats a new question. but as I stated, i dont have a camera working right now, just a Ipad RIU refuses to make a app for... they hate money or something...


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## dEzSykEs (Nov 4, 2013)

Thank you so much Uncle Ben.


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## plaguedog (Nov 4, 2013)

Impman said:


> ^^^^ Do my own homework. Stop brown nosing , its lame. I askedif if can hack off 8 inches of plant down to the second node. thats a new question. but as I stated, i dont have a camera working right now, just a Ipad RIU refuses to make a app for... they hate money or something...


Who the fuck is brown-nosing? Whatever, read the fucking thread. And I wouldn't lop off 8 inches of a mature clone to get less then predictable results. But hey they are your plants, do whatever the hell you want with them.


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## jacksthc (Nov 4, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yes, seeds will give you the best (easiest to obtain) results only because folks have trouble switching a plant's growth mode from mature (alternating nodes) to juvenile or opposing nodes.
> 
> OK, I've posted this several times here but I'll do it again. I wrote a FAQ to clear up any misunderstandings and first posted it at another forum. Here it is:
> 
> ...


thanks ben I think i did it wrong 



I topped the plant at the 8th node and the * nodes are alternating*



do you think there ok ?
and here a couple more pics thanks again UB


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## Guitar Man (Nov 5, 2013)

Started my second grow, using this technique. I'm 10 days into flowering and the 2 plants are doing fantastic! In fact, 1 of them is doing much better than my last attempt and I'm predicting close to a "Half Pound" Harvest from this plant. This is a small closet grow, and if I had more room I could really let this Lady shine, but space is limiting my Yield.


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## welshwizzard (Nov 6, 2013)

Used UB method at the right place on this Blimburn, fantastic result


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## EverythingsHazy (Nov 6, 2013)

jacksthc said:


> thanks ben I think i did it wrong
> 
> View attachment 2882270
> 
> I topped the plant at the 8th node and the * nodes are alternating*


I need to reread the whole thing but im pretty sure its not cut at the 8th. Its cut lower when the plant has 8 nodes


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## Nizza (Nov 13, 2013)

I'm sorry UB, i've looked through this page for 20 mins or so and can't find the answer...

say i take a seedling that got stunted and had really tight nodes and cut the lower 3 off (theres like 7 and its very short) , then bury it down. Now take the top growth and cut down to the first node.

Will this be the same idea as doing it with a younger seedling?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 13, 2013)

Nizza said:


> I'm sorry UB, i've looked through this page for 20 mins or so and can't find the answer...
> 
> say i take a seedling that got stunted and had really tight nodes and cut the lower 3 off (theres like 7 and its very short) , then bury it down. Now take the top growth and cut down to the first node.
> 
> Will this be the same idea as doing it with a younger seedling?


Whatever is buried below ground should force roots. If you have 2 nodes left above ground it should force 4 main colas from the dormant foliar buds. Try it and let us know how it worked out for you.

Me? I'd focus on why the plant became stunted in the first place. It's all about the basics.

Good luck,
Tio


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## simisimis (Nov 14, 2013)

Hey UB,
just wanted to thank you and post some results of mine. 
I combined your technique with RM way of prunning before upcan and adapted that to my grow room.
this is how plant looked at 19th day of veg






I prunned two bottom nodes and applied some rooting gel on stem. Also took the top off leaving only 3rd and 4th node.






and upcanned. So in one day, topping, prunning and upcanning. Here are pics how plant looked at 1st, 3rd and 7th day after topping.


















So I do not understand how people manage to get their plants stunned. None of plants I topped this or other way showed me more stress than simple LST..

I've noticed that this method has both advantages and drawbacks over your "topping above 2nd node".
Advantages 
you get fatter stem at the base, possibly bigger root ball, 4 additional clones from 1st and 2nd node.

Disadvatages
it took 4 days longer before I was able to top. Also space between 1st and 2nd node was like 0.5", while between 3rd and 4th - 1.5". Was thinking that this might cause less even auxin distribution.. but maybe not. This is only my 4th grow, so difficult to say..

So what do you think? Any comments about my assumptions? Cause I feel like I'm too inexperienced to make ones. Maybe you know any other pluses and minuses when topping one way or another?

Thanks and cheers!


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## lilroach (Nov 14, 2013)

Nizza said:


> I'm sorry UB, i've looked through this page for 20 mins or so and can't find the answer...
> 
> say i take a seedling that got stunted and had really tight nodes and cut the lower 3 off (theres like 7 and its very short) , then bury it down. Now take the top growth and cut down to the first node.
> 
> Will this be the same idea as doing it with a younger seedling?


jacksthc......I too had a runt like you're describing and did the UB's topping....Here's a link to how mine grew out:


https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog29715-im-gonna-give-uncle-ben.html#comments


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 14, 2013)

simisimis said:


> and upcanned. So in one day, topping, prunning and upcanning. Here are pics how plant looked at 1st, 3rd and 7th day after topping.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looking really good. Looks like your plan worked and you learned quite a bit about what makes a plant tick. Keep us posted.....


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## ozric420 (Nov 14, 2013)

Hello UB ,thanks for all the info, but I can't find anything on topping clones in the thread... so my question is do I top above 2 node still , and any recommendation on how long to veg after I cut or doesn't that matter... thanks for your time...


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## jacksthc (Nov 14, 2013)

lilroach said:


> jacksthc......I too had a runt like you're describing and did the UB's topping....Here's a link to how mine grew out:
> 
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog29715-im-gonna-give-uncle-ben.html#comments


yeh your right I really messed on on theses plants 



if you need any advice on topping UB send me a pm, oh sorry you can't, better still just post any questions you may have and I will do my best to help 

lilroach if your going to give any credit its not ub as you did a LBH's 4 way lst tutorial (w topping sub-tutorial) 

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/438784-lbhs-4-way-lst-tutorial-10.html

but putting that a side you did grow that tree really well, nice one mate


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## papajohn (Nov 15, 2013)

simisimis said:


> Hey UB,
> just wanted to thank you and post some results of mine.
> I combined your technique with RM way of prunning before upcan and adapted that to my grow room.
> this is how plant looked at 19th day of veg
> ...


well done buddy


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## Nizza (Nov 16, 2013)

ben you said you'd focus on what the source of the stunt was, here's some things i could think of..

I directly sowed the seeds into cottage cheese sized buckets ( a bit bigger than 20oz solo cups). Maybe the tap root didn't like how shallow the planter was

I used the cottage cheese planter (obv. washed out) and think the lights may have been heating the soil up too much, as the soil thermometer said 74, which was the same as my room temp...

the seeds all came up but didn't seem to take off like they had before, so i figured i had too much light on them . 5x 2' t5 HO bulbs, around 4-6" away. I switched that to 2x bulbs and backed them off to 8".

since then i haven't had to water as much (using nutes now cause light warrior barely has any and they had showed a small deficiency after the 2nd week)

so after 3 weeks the plant finally shows some vigor. they got to be 5" tall and i decided to take those tight stunted nodes and cut them with a razor, plant it down into a fresh 3 gal planter, and water with a dose of dyna gro KLN in conjunction with protekt. From here i will just water plain water for a week or two and very soon these ceeds will hopefully be ready for your 2 top method, and then at 18" will be trained down for the crop circle of bud method.

grow room specs go as this; 20on 4 off, temps go from ~75 on cycle then down to 62 on the off cycle, constant negative pressure intake bottom exhaust up high, planter in 3gal air pots, transplanted from lightwarrior ~24oz cups, eventually being fed mix of dyna gro protekt and foliage pro.

soil mix is 45% ocean forest 35%happy frog and 20% perlite
I plan on a light feed schedule and daily waterings, and another possible transplanting.
A problem i had once with the ocean forest is it lost its buffering and the pH went to 5.5 or so (cause they use oyster shell as a buffer)
to correct it i flushed through with 7.0 1/4 dose water 25 gallons (5 gal planter bucket) and it seemed to fix the pH issue

this time i added "happy frog" which uses dolomite as its buffer
but am realizing maybe it was because of all the perlite and frequent waterings, maybe thats what is washing away the buffer?

I know your techniques are much different and you may not have experience with these specific brands, but i just wanted any input you had on what i may or may not be doing wrong here, thanks UB, I appreciate all the help and knowledge.


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## Nizza (Nov 16, 2013)

for those interested in CCOB , here's a direct quote from user Hobbes, who has since passed. RIP


"Simple and Easy Low Stress Training
I do CCOB, like an inefficient scrog without the screen but the plants are
movable. I top my plants once; veg each side of the stem to 22" in a 6" pot;
transplant to a 5 gallon pot on an angle; bend the stems around the bucket rim.
The branches grow up and the stem acts like a hydro tube feeding each small
cola.
The stems virtually stop growing when they're bent horizontal, so I have to veg
the plants so they will bend all the way around the 38" bucket rim. A single 38"
stem is thicker and harder to train; two 22" stems crossed at the bottom and
following the natural curve of a topped plant will train much quicker and easier. I
often put two 14" topped plants in the same bucket, great results. "


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 16, 2013)

Nizza said:


> but am realizing maybe it was because of all the perlite and frequent waterings, maybe thats what is washing away the buffer?
> 
> I know your techniques are much different and you may not have experience with these specific brands, but i just wanted any input you had on what i may or may not be doing wrong here, thanks UB, I appreciate all the help and knowledge.


With frequent drenchings, there goes your source of vigor - N. What's your fertilizer drills? What, how much, NPK values.


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## Nizza (Nov 16, 2013)

well once i know the N source is out of the pot i transplanted into, I go to 2-3 ml/gal protekt, 2-5ml/gal of foliage pro (9-3-6) every third or so watering
since i just tranplanted, i gave it 5ml/gal feed of protekt, and 5ml/gal feed of KLN. the forest is a pretty strong soil which is why i dilute it down with some perlite and happy frog.
i was also hoping the dolomite in the happy frog would help the buffering issue, i wish i had added just a little bit when i was mixing everything all up


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 16, 2013)

Don't have a clue without personally observing your day to day activities. Most likely a poor root mass. All I know is I keep it simple using "stuff" around the shop and in 4 weeks they're ready to flower finishing out at 3-5' tall.


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## Babalao15 (Nov 17, 2013)

Dear Mr UB. 
I've recently become interested in learning to grow these great plants.
In doing so I've found your various contributions here and there. 
Thanks for taking the time to share your obvious wealth of knowledge with us.
There's a lot of advise out here, but less so worth reading.
Again, just a thanks...

PS. I LOVE gardening anyway, so why pay the man?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 17, 2013)

Babalao15 said:


> Dear Mr UB.
> I've recently become interested in learning to grow these great plants.
> In doing so I've found your various contributions here and there.
> Thanks for taking the time to share your obvious wealth of knowledge with us.
> ...


Thanks for writing, and happy gardening!


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## Vnsmkr (Nov 20, 2013)

UB, this is off topic, but I was having a look over Vietnamese landrace topics and your name was mentioned. Does that have any merit as I would be curious thoughts on length of flower. Huge plants from what I see so far and compared to hybrids grown.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 20, 2013)

Vnsmkr said:


> UB, this is off topic, but I was having a look over Vietnamese landrace topics and your name was mentioned. Does that have any merit as I would be curious thoughts on length of flower. Huge plants from what I see so far and compared to hybrids grown.


I have Dalat Vietnamese seeds and have grown them out inside. Trust me, it's not worth it as it takes forever to flower (response is based on chronological age not phytochrome influences), they are leggy and even though I didn't have this problem, such pure tropical sativas are prone to going hermie. The guy that distributed them actually went back to the Dalat valley where he use to fly helicopters during the Vietnam war in the 60's, found a source and sent seeds to about a dozen of us folks from OG and CW defunct forums. I sent him F1 C99 pollen, he claims he did the dirty deed and sent me the offspring - Dalat Viet. X C99.

Here's a photo of the damn thing (on the right) growing right past the hoods, this after topping it numerous times during veg AND flower. I just moved to the perimeter and let it do it's thing....got tired of fighting it.  Most folks seen to get into trouble regarding foliage retention beginning the 3rd week of flowering, just imagine the challenge of retaining foliage come month 4. 



UB


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## Vnsmkr (Nov 20, 2013)

I'll let you know how they get on, with the Vietnamese and the Thai's considering where I am, but your picture looks familiar . I put them next to a Durban Poison and a Super Lemon Haze and they dwarf the others. Leaves are huge


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 20, 2013)

Vnsmkr said:


> I'll let you know how they get on, with the Vietnamese and the Thai's considering where I am, but your picture looks familiar . I put them next to a Durban Poison and a Super Lemon Haze and they dwarf the others. Leaves are huge


Good luck with that. I'd love to follow your progress.


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## juts (Nov 21, 2013)

I'm confused. Let me get this straight... 1st node = First single leaves right ABOVE the cotyledon? So cutting above the 2nd node makes 4 dominant colas? or cut between nodes 3 and 4?


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## hiitsbob (Nov 21, 2013)

uncle ben not sure how to get ahold of you and know this isn't the right spot but know you post here.
anyway started a dinafem blue widow started life with the 3 leaf sets on main stem then each secondary branch only had 2 leaf sets.
i am at week 9 and just found a couple nanners shooting and up a closer inspection see a seed or 2.
i have researched a bit and this type or plant is know to hermie. wondering your thoughts on such plants and seeds.
most people say throw a hermie but has a week or 2 to finish. all personal smoke so could care less to pick a couple seeds.
i trust your thoughts much further about botany than most i know is why i ask you.


thanks for your time 
bob

pics are week 7. pics are just to show a bit of history on plant. lst'd then topped secondary branches to produce this many tops.
yell at me for dieing leaves was trying to grow organic and have dyna gro foliage pro i should have used about 3-4 weeks ago and def will next time.
need to hone supersoil mix and organic techniques to be able to pull this off.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 22, 2013)

hiitsbob said:


> i am at week 9 and just found a couple nanners shooting and up a closer inspection see a seed or 2.


If seeds don't bother you and you know it could stand more time, let it go. If you're finding seeds the plant is trying to tell you it's time to harvest. Did that you confuse you enough lol? 

IOW, your call.......

Nothing wrong with organic as long as you know the macros and micros they're getting. I've grown many plants from start to finish with nothing more than organics. I loaded up the soil with the meals and compost. In fact, I added so much blood meal one time you could actually smell the ammonia off gassing from the pot! It was suttle but it was there.


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## hiitsbob (Nov 22, 2013)

i guess maybe chop will be at week 9 instead of 10. not confused but def learning more and more with each grow.
only other question i have is chuck the seeds? and i had a pineapple express in with it if i get seeds from that fem seeds or junk also?

as for my organics i tried organic bag soil with a bit of blood and bone meal with only rainwater. every other week during flower a couple teaspoons of hi p bat guano.
i made supersoil a bit stronger and with more diverse ingredients.
(blood and bone meal, glacial rock dust, mycorrhizea, lime, 25% cow poo compost, epsom salts)

thanks again for your wealth of knowledge and sharing with us all
bob


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 22, 2013)

Some old growers I used to jive with say that if you have a few seeds, say....6, off one plant that they tend to sex pure female. I've saved some of those but never tried out the theory to confirm if that is correct.

happy to share the wealth.....


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## Guitar Man (Nov 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Some old growers I used to jive with say that if you have a few seeds, say....6, off one plant that they tend to sex pure female. I've saved some of those but never tried out the theory to confirm if that is correct.
> 
> happy to share the wealth.....


I have used seeds from plants that have Hermed on me. So far, all female. I did extensive research on Hermaphrodites and everything I've read stated that all seeds will be female, BUT, with the Hermaphrodite strain. Interesting thing though, the last plant I grew from a Herm Seed did not Herm on me...and the finished product was excellent!


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## Guitar Man (Nov 25, 2013)

Here is my grow, using UB's Topping Technique. This is the second grow I've done using this form of topping, and the results are excellent. I'm 4 weeks into flowering and the plants are doing great. This is just 1 plant. By the time this plant is finished, the bud towers will be so heavy I will most likely have to stake them/tie them up.


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## dannyboy602 (Nov 25, 2013)

uneven canopy^^^^just sayin


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## Guitar Man (Nov 25, 2013)

dannyboy602 said:


> uneven canopy^^^^just sayin


I'm working on that. As I'm sure you know, experimenting has its limitations. My last grow had a more level canopy, but I decided to try something different this time. This grow, my bud towers are much larger and this Sativa strain is WILD! I've topped this plant twice already to calm her down, and she is 55" right now (on the towers). That's in my 2x4 closet. The plant next to her is level, but that plant is an Indica.

What I will get this time (and what I didn't get last time), are bud towers that should develop at full length rather than just at the top. Of course the lower part of the plant will have diminished results because of no light. 

You also can't see very well that there are plenty of bud towers below and they are developing nicely. I will post more pictures as the flowering progresses.


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## Stoned Drifter (Nov 27, 2013)

ok so I tried this on a gsc clone. nodes are not 100% opposing. but close. I got 2 main stems, so I topped again one stem had 100% opposing nodes and the other stem are way off. im wondering what this is gonna result in.


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## Stoned Drifter (Nov 27, 2013)

Stoned Drifter said:


> View attachment 2791929here is where I cut my og kush. this is my 1st time trying this method out. but 3 hours before that I had cut right above the 4th leaf node. is this gonna mess with the hormones from not working correctly? this is where I first cut. right above 4th node.View attachment 2791932View attachment 2791937


oh and heres how my og is doing. I ran into a ph problem but the plants bouncing back.


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## Guitar Man (Nov 30, 2013)

5 days after last photo. Buds are fattening up nicely and daily. 3+weeks to go. Picture on left taken 5 days ago.

View attachment 2912573View attachment 2912574


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## ProdigalSun (Dec 1, 2013)

Is there any reason to WANT big colas to begin with? When I'm harvesting the buds, I always trim them out to be convenient, bowl sized nugs anyways, so I don't see the point in a cola at all. It seems that a bush would be what everyone here would be trying to make.


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## a mongo frog (Dec 1, 2013)

ProdigalSun said:


> Is there any reason to WANT big colas to begin with? When I'm harvesting the buds, I always trim them out to be convenient, bowl sized nugs anyways, so I don't see the point in a cola at all. It seems that a bush would be what everyone here would be trying to make.


Yes there is a reason to want big colas. Pretty sure it's part of the passion of growing cannabiss. And most of the time we can not control how the colas are going to grow. Although, I have been bending the tops at a 90 for height reasons and that's turning out really cool.


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## ProdigalSun (Dec 1, 2013)

I'm not talking about passion, or showing off, I certainly understand that, I'm interested in potency and yield.


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## Guitar Man (Dec 1, 2013)

ProdigalSun said:


> I'm not talking about passion, or showing off, I certainly understand that, I'm interested in potency and yield.


Do you think I'll be disappointed with a half pound from this Lady? I find that a satisfactory yield for my grow. Potency? Not sure what you mean about that. I've grown this strain 3 separate times now, and the finished product would kick anyones ass. I've taken my MJ to breeders/growers who do very large grows and who have been in the industry for 30 years to test my product; not 1 complaint or criticism regarding affect, taste, and smoothness. BTW, big colas are BAD ASS!

Oh, and don't forget about the buds down below. You can't see them very well in these pictures, but the bud activity on the lower branches is coming along nicely.


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## ProdigalSun (Dec 1, 2013)

It isn't all about you dude. I'm just asking if a plant is grown for a cola or 2 or 4, or whether the same plant grown as a popcorn bush, would it be weaker, stronger, the same potency, and secondly, would it yield more or less.


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## Guitar Man (Dec 1, 2013)

ProdigalSun said:


> It isn't all about you dude. I'm just asking if a plant is grown for a cola or 2 or 4, or whether the same plant grown as a popcorn bush, would it be weaker, stronger, the same potency, and secondly, would it yield more or less.


Never said this was about me. I'm just clarifying what you didn't clarify about potency and yield. A solid, finished product is what we all want, and that is what I'm getting. I think we all like to experiment, but experimentation has its limits because we only have so much time in the day or space in our grow rooms.

Do you think UB has done this enough times to listen to his advice? How about all of the others who have tried this topping technique?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IMO, potency and yield is about strain/genetics, light, and proper feeding/soil. I don't think it matters whether a person grows colas or a person grows a bush, as long as the plant is healthy. In outside grows, shit, I've seen plants 6-8 feet tall where the entire thing was nothing but colas via professional topping.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 2, 2013)

Guitar Man said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but IMO, potency and yield is about strain/genetics, light, and proper feeding/soil. I don't think it matters whether a person grows colas or a person grows a bush, as long as the plant is healthy. In outside grows, shit, I've seen plants 6-8 feet tall where the entire thing was nothing but colas via professional topping.


Agreed, after genetics which pretty much drives potency it's the sum of the parts. U. of Miss as reported by Mel Frank showed that buds at the bottom of the plant can and many times are more potent than at the top.


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## Guitar Man (Dec 4, 2013)

Here's another update on my plant. 1st pic is 10 days ago. 2nd pic is 5 days ago. Next 7 pics are from this morning. She is a Sour Diesel, standing about 55" at the top towers. This is my 2nd time doing UB's Advanced Cut/Top to obtain 4 main colas. 2-3 weeks left till chop chop.

View attachment 2917068View attachment 2917069View attachment 2917070View attachment 2917071View attachment 2917072View attachment 2917073View attachment 2917075View attachment 2917077View attachment 2917078


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## jagga (Dec 6, 2013)

thanks to uncle ben for an amazing and very informative thread ...I have been reading every page and days later im at page 220

heres 4 dinafem moby dick ,2 ugorg killer skunk and one dinafem critical cheese at day 19 from seed and all at 5/6 nodes

grown under 400w metal halide with very tight node distance , the plants are about 6 inches high and the medium used is fytocell in hempy pots.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## jagga (Dec 6, 2013)

all topped at 2nd node except the autoflowering dinafem critical cheese in the middle


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## ProdigalSun (Dec 6, 2013)

What's the opinion on those white discs? They are there I'm sure to reflect light, but will it cause too much moisture or unwanted fungal growth under the cover?


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## jagga (Dec 7, 2013)

ProdigalSun said:


> What's the opinion on those white discs? They are there I'm sure to reflect light, but will it cause too much moisture or unwanted fungal growth under the cover?


without the discs the fytocell will have algae growing on the top, the disc blocks light and stops algae growing.


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## ProdigalSun (Dec 7, 2013)

You shouldn't have algae growth, sounds like your humidity might be too high?


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## jagga (Dec 7, 2013)

ProdigalSun said:


> You shouldn't have algae growth, sounds like your humidity might be too high?



humidity is very low, algae will grow on fytocell if its not covered and it is harmless, because it stays wet, it is susceptible to green *algae* on the top. Algae uses photosynthesis to grow.


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## jagga (Dec 8, 2013)

2 days later and no signs of growth on the first node on 5 out of 6 plants....is this normal?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 8, 2013)

jagga said:


> 2 days later and no signs of growth on the first node on 5 out of 6 plants....is this normal?


Unless you are having vigor issues, it should pop soon. My seedlings are so vigorous that many times they are already pushing foliage from the petiole's axis.


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## jagga (Dec 8, 2013)

thanks for the quick reply UB. the 2nd node are growing at a decent rate so I don't think its a vigour issue . The first node branches are thin when compared to the second node I think I need to be patient . there was a little growth already there on the first petiole axis on all the plants.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 8, 2013)

jagga said:


> thanks for the quick reply UB. the 2nd node are growing at a decent rate so I don't think its a vigour issue . The first node branches are thin when compared to the second node I think I need to be patient . there was a little growth already there on the first petiole axis on all the plants.


Apical dominance at play. Most times both locations run about the same dominance and vigor as shown on page one. Sometimes the upper colas will be a little bigger than the ones below them. You'll get the feel of it come harvest. 

Good luck,
UB


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## Babalao15 (Dec 13, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I think it is, or I wouldn't do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Ben
Thanks again for sharing with us.
Are you saying that if I want seeds, I can overflower to achieve this?
I have a sativa dominant strain in hot weather and high humidity.
Is there some other way that I can get seeds from a late flowering plant?
I'm sorry to highjack the thread, but I'm still reading thread 135, and I know by the time I'm done it will be a while. 
Thanks...

DWC CFL Lady


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 13, 2013)

Babalao15 said:


> Hi Ben
> Thanks again for sharing with us.
> Are you saying that if I want seeds, I can overflower to achieve this?
> I have a sativa dominant strain in hot weather and high humidity.
> ...


Takes 2 to tango. There's no such thing as "overflowering". Collect the pollen from your favorite male and using a paint brush dust the pistils of your favorite ladies. Label the branches, let them go 4-6 weeks, and harvest the seeds from those branches as they mature, like you normally would harvest bud.


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## Babalao15 (Dec 14, 2013)

Thanks UB
I was just looking and noticed that my plant on the prev picture is actually topped as you suggest. I've been gardening for a while now, not a spring chicken. The extra colas you see are from secondaries!
I did that at about 4 weeks of veg and vegged for another month after that. I have also done some of the things you advised against, defoliating, prunning, aggressive ph adjusting and of course from dirt to dwc after 5/6 weeks of veg. Had to try it...Now that I have (i can say I did) next grow I plan to use more of your approach and will be able to compare results.
Considering your advise I have to say that in spite of me and the cfl lighting this plant has exceeded all my expectations. I guess that's a testament to how resourceful these plants are.
I was just looking to see how close to harvest I may be, but about two weeks ago I followed your advice and added some nitrogen to the flowering nutes recommendation (GH) and I'm looking at a plant that is still adding new flower and leaves all over...
Thanks UB. 
I plan to do a dual harvest after collecting the fat colas up top, but for now am letting that bitch fatten up!


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## Nizza (Dec 14, 2013)

3x big bud feminized ceeds from vision seed co. 
the buckets have holes in them and are lined with reusable fabric shopping bags. this is on top of a wooded perforated floor that the air intake goes into underneath. on top of that the oscilating fan blows a light breeze at the root area and a little bit underneath the canopy. the exhaust is up top
the major thing i like about doing soil is the color green the plants are.
the ones i did in coco were very very dark green, i might try these in coco just to see how they do compared to soil on a timed run

anyways these had about 8 nodes each got a cold spell and shocked the roots, it was terrible and happened so fast.
so i fixed the heat issue and now they regenerated, and then i took a bunch of clones , buried it down, and topped it down to the 2 nodes (there was 6 or 


my question is that there is uneven growth, is there an easy way to even it out or will it naturally favor one side of the plant? I was thinking of training the weak side under the lights until they catch up


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## Babalao15 (Dec 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> About how long would it take for you to read the first couple of pages?


Hi UB...
I'm reading thru this thread and I have to say, you are more than patient to keep coming to hear people ask you ie, Is thinning plants a good thing?
Man! I've been in customer service my whole life, but at least I was getting paid!
Folks, read the thread, at least the first few pages, I'm going on page 190 or so because I'm interested in learning(please forgive my virtue...) 
I want to become a master gardener, so I read and experiment, I don't take anyone's word for it.
Do the same...
Read and try things that make sense to you. Read about how plants work. 
If you fail, you can say that doesn't work.
But at least do your homework!
Peace out!
Not trying to judge anyone, just passing game along...


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## Babalao15 (Dec 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You're losing the will! Hah! I've tried with emails to senior mods to forward this message to RIU. For some fucked up reason, RIU locks out the thread starter from editing his own thread. No other forum, cannabis or otherwise, does this.
> 
> I would have a FAQ on page one to answer the same ol same ol lame questions if given the editing feature.
> 
> ...




RIU, would you let this man do his work?
I'm trying to read as fast as I can through a 1000 plus pages, with morons asking questions answered on the first page. Come on, take control of the place...


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## Nizza (Dec 15, 2013)

i'd love the input on above, for those interested in a training technique that takes little time and uses ub's 2 top method, check this out https://www.rollitup.org/subcools-old-school-organics/278203-jack-ripper-jilly-bean-pandoras.html

the method is called crop circle of bud.
hobbes(rip) explains his method in the thread, I am trying this for the first time mainly because i have a height restriction, and see this as a quick, simple , and effective training manuever.
the heart of the technique seems to be knowing when the 2 stalks' length crossed over each other and around the pot added are going to equal the circumference of the pot

main reason why im trying to even out the growth as best I can.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 15, 2013)

Nizza said:


> my question is that there is uneven growth, is there an easy way to even it out or will it naturally favor one side of the plant? I was thinking of training the weak side under the lights until they catch up


Shade the side it's leaning toward and add more light in the direction you want it to go. To get anal with you, the cells of the shady side's petioles and branches will actually elongate and divide moving the mass of plant tissue towards the light - Phototropism.

Good luck...


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 15, 2013)

Babalao15 said:


> RIU, would you let this man do his work?
> I'm trying to read as fast as I can through a 1000 plus pages, with morons asking questions answered on the first page. Come on, take control of the place...


Buy Mel Frank's guide. It will be your shortcut to success. He and I share the same gardening principles plus the book is fun to read and has tons of great graphs. There's too much noise to wade thru at RIU, as if you haven't noticed.


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## Babalao15 (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks Ben
I'm going to order from Amazon...

which one?

Marijuana Grower's Insider's Guide by Mel Frank (Jan 22, 1993) 

The Indoor Outdoor Highest Quality Marijuana Grower's Guide by Mel Frank and Ed Rosenthal (Feb 1982) 


Marijuana grower's Guide, Deluxe Edition by Mel Frank (197


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 15, 2013)

Grower's Insider's Guide by Mel Frank (Jan 22, 1993)


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## ProdigalSun (Dec 15, 2013)

Figured I'd give this a try.


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## Babalao15 (Dec 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Grower's Insider's Guide by Mel Frank (Jan 22, 1993)


Thanks again, less than ten bucks online, delivered, right on!

FYI, lol...* this one sells for over $200?* WTF!
(*The Indoor Outdoor Highest Quality marijuana Grower's Guide by Mel Frank and Ed Rosenthal (Feb 1982) ) *

Here's a pic of my 4 Cola topped plant.
I just harvested (top half) 165 grams wet and left about 60% of the plant to mature mid and bottom flowers. Feeding some extra nitrogen with bloom nutes, lots of white, new pistils popping everywhere from the last 2/3 weeks of feeding N.
Cool! 
Thanks UB.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 16, 2013)

This is how my plants always finish. Posting it to show the correct structure or profile beginning at the first node. (Yes, I did add quite a bit of soil to the pot, mid growth)









Soil washed off top of rootball revealing super fibrous root system. This is what you should focus on, creating an extensive mass of roots!









See, even praying Mantis like popcorn buds! This illustrates and destroys the popular myth that cannabis has popcorn buds because they don't get enough light. This was an outdoor grown plant.








Uncle Ben


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## papajohn (Dec 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> This is how my plants always finish. Posting it to show the correct structure or profile beginning at the first node. (Yes, I did add quite a bit of soil to the pot, mid growth)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


great porn


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## papajohn (Dec 16, 2013)

would love to see your outdoor tomatoes!


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## Devilspawn (Dec 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben ... Just wanted to thank you for wisdom and sharing info. I finally have my techniques down with topping , super cropping and ferts. My yields are great in a hydro cab w led lighting. Myths of airy buds with led are just that if you do things right and are patient. Add proper curing to it and I now have tasty, strong but smooth meds for family n friends .


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## hoagtech (Dec 20, 2013)

Merry Christmas Uncle Ben from Hoagtech. After all these years I've based my topping principles off your original post. OG


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 20, 2013)

Devilspawn said:


> Uncle Ben ... Just wanted to thank you for wisdom and sharing info. I finally have my techniques down with topping , super cropping and ferts. My yields are great in a hydro cab w led lighting. Myths of airy buds with led are just that if you do things right and are patient. Add proper curing to it and I now have tasty, strong but smooth meds for family n friends .


Sounds like a winner! Happy gardening and a prosperous New Year.



hoagtech said:


> Merry Christmas Uncle Ben from Hoagtech.


Thanks bro. Likewise.......


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## qroox (Dec 21, 2013)

Dr Gruber said:


> Here are some shots of a Sour Diesel I topped with UB's method.Thanks UB!


Daaaaaaaaaaaaamn..!!!!!!!!!!!


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## qroox (Dec 21, 2013)

Danielsgb said:


> Thanks UB, I'll call the Landfill tomorrow to check if they have some. Pretty sure we get free access since we recycle all yard waste.I've been trying something a little different on my *Well Here Goes Again *with an f1 cross Purple Rain that seems to be a hog for nutes. I've been using RiddleMe's 'make it rain' and using Jack's 20-20-20 and sometimes Fish Emulsion too & I added some Morbloom 0-10-10 to the Jack's as flowering began. I noticed on the label for the Fish Emulsion that the strength for dosages in varied a lot, so that means too high a strength is harder, right? By leeching the soil then feeding as they need moisture I seem to be getting good growth. So do you think adding organics to Jack's to anticipate deficiencies as worthwhile? I thought chemical fert.'s are absorbed faster, but since the soil is leeched about a week to 10 days apart I'm less scared of a nute burn.Still trying to learn to read them. It's pretty heavy on the Sativa side. Most of a Sativa cross, I've grown indoors. Daniels


Hey there mate. I ve read riddleme's make it rain tech but i did not quite get it. You water until "drowning" and then,when the pot feels light again, you water with a higher dose of nutes? Correct me if i am wrong.. reading page 300 from 1 and going..


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## Guitar Man (Dec 21, 2013)

Thanks, UB!! Just cut her down. Should get a 1/2 pound or more from this Lady! JUNGLE BOOGIE!

View attachment 2936695View attachment 2936696


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 21, 2013)

Guitar Man said:


> Thanks, UB!! Just cut her down. Should get a 1/2 pound or more from this Lady! JUNGLE BOOGIE!
> 
> View attachment 2936697View attachment 2936695View attachment 2936696


Well, that sure makes for a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidaze! Nice job!


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## enzofilo (Dec 22, 2013)

First of all thank you all for your valuable knowledge, especially UB , we newbies learn a lot from you guys.
I've been reading the thread cuz Im interested in this technique. The problem is I cut some clones from the plant's lower branches (Kalashnikova) and it also has some lower fan leaves missing. So, I was wondering If my babe will make it if I cut just above the second true node to get the 4 main colas considering it doesnt have all the leaves it's supposed to and it's kinda small. I'll leave you some pics so you can have a better understanding of what im trying to say.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 22, 2013)

The nodes look opposing to me!


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## lilroach (Dec 22, 2013)

Here's a Mataro Blue Clone that I did UB's topping. I like how it has grown out:


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## lilroach (Dec 22, 2013)

One thing I noticed is that all the secondary branches favored the "inside" of the four colas. While the opposing outside branches are relatively short, the inside ones flourished. It's like it created a "bowl of buds".







Yeah......I had some yellowing. I was light on nitrogen and have since corrected the problem.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 22, 2013)

I know. Why folks seem to struggle with getting decent lower positioned buds, aka little colas or groups of buds, is beyond me. I think it's more of a coverup for their inexperience. Kinda like taking the plunge into snake oils claiming them as so wonderful. They have to justify their purchases some how.

Looks like you've got everything under control!

Regarding the yellowing, looks like some chlorosis working there too which many times goes hand in hand with a N deficiency, especially if one has been using high P foods. They tend to lock out the micros.

Curious, how did you correct the problem. No matter what you're growing, there will be many a time when you'll have chlorosis, and it's not always caused by an iron deficiency. Zinc plays a part too, sometimes manganese. Damn hard to visually diagnose sometimes as one may mask the deficiency of another.


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## qroox (Dec 22, 2013)

Guitar Man said:


> Thanks, UB!! Just cut her down. Should get a 1/2 pound or more from this Lady! JUNGLE BOOGIE!
> 
> View attachment 2936697View attachment 2936695View attachment 2936696


Damn those are some nice buds.How tall-wide was the plant and what strain ?


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## lilroach (Dec 22, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I know. Why folks seem to struggle with getting decent lower positioned buds, aka little colas or groups of buds, is beyond me. I think it's more of a coverup for their inexperience. Kinda like taking the plunge into snake oils claiming them as so wonderful. They have to justify their purchases some how.
> 
> Looks like you've got everything under control!
> 
> ...


I gave a dose of bat guano/water and have switched from Jacks bloom booster 10-30-20 to Jack's general 20-20-20. There's been no new yellowing since.


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## Guitar Man (Dec 22, 2013)

qroox said:


> Damn those are some nice buds.How tall-wide was the plant and what strain ?


The plant ended its journey at 56" (main towers). Width was about 26". The strain was a special mix developed by a breeder I know in California; Lemon Haze/Sour Diesel with a mix of Indica. Definitely a Sativa dominant strain as the stretch is a challenge and the medicinal affect is more of head high, but not without the body high. It's an excellent combination of both strains, but more of a head high, which I like.

The plant would have been wider, but I have a Purple Cookie growing next to the big girl.


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## enzofilo (Dec 22, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> The nodes look opposing to me!


First of all thanks for replying. However, I didn't understand what you meant by that  Is it correct the way I explained about the nodes? Am I getting something wrong? and back to my question... will the tiny lady survive if I cut where I showed you in the pic?

Thanks again


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## mannycrx (Dec 22, 2013)

Did it to my auto critical cheese


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## lilroach (Dec 22, 2013)

I'm about 5 weeks into growing four plants via Uncle Ben's topping technique. I'm comparing these four against a fifth that I topped traditionally.

Here's my journal: https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog31888-shooting-30-ounces-5-plants.html


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 23, 2013)

enzofilo said:


> First of all thanks for replying. However, I didn't understand what you meant by that  Is it correct the way I explained about the nodes? Am I getting something wrong? and back to my question... will the tiny lady survive if I cut where I showed you in the pic?
> 
> Thanks again


That was a hint to please go back to page one. I'm (we) get tired of answering the same old questions with every new crop of newbs. Folks ought to be making their own calls.....most times I just ignore the post.

The lady will survive as long as you don't cut below the first node. You're not building a piano, just do it.


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## enzofilo (Dec 23, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> That was a hint to please go back to page one. I'm (we) get tired of answering the same old questions with every new crop of newbs. Folks ought to be making their own calls.....most times I just ignore the post.
> 
> The lady will survive as long as you don't cut below the first node. You're not building a piano, just do it.


Thanks dude, I just wanted some encouragement cuz as a newb everything is so dangerous to us LOL and we don't wanna do anything wrong to our beloved marias. 
By the way, I did read the thread from the start, but it happens that English isn't my mother tongue and sometime I get kinda confused  . If u add that to being inexperienced it creates a machine of asking the same questions 
Thanks for taking the time, Ill just do it.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 23, 2013)

enzofilo said:


> Thanks dude, I just wanted some encouragement cuz as a newb everything is so dangerous to us LOL and we don't wanna do anything wrong to our beloved marias.
> By the way, I did read the thread from the start, but it happens that English isn't my mother tongue and sometime I get kinda confused  . If u add that to being inexperienced it creates a machine of asking the same questions
> Thanks for taking the time, Ill just do it.


Failure is an option, it's the way you learn. Just try to keep it to a minimum.


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## qroox (Dec 25, 2013)

I have finally..FINISHED reading this whole thread. Some of the repetition of q/a was too much to stay calm but i am pretty sure and confident to say that learnt every little thing. I also found out what problems might occur,how to deal with them,how to get rid off trolls like sir.fudja.. An elite learning experience.. I have topped my "unknown" local strain when it was formimg it's 5th node.i topped right above the 2nd..like 7-8% thc max . Also i cloned its' top. Both are under 12/12 from seed. Very vigour, regarding the hours it receives light. Pics will come soon. Merry Christmas to EVERYONE...RIP K.H....I was a big fan of your posts.. I will read everything you have ever posted. This is the least i can do to honor your memoryThanks UB and everyone else who chimed in.~ Bill


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 25, 2013)

Merry Christmas, ya'll!


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## qroox (Dec 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Merry Christmas, ya'll!


Good evening Tio..!! Check the spin-out thread if you have time. Got a small hesitation ^^..!!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 25, 2013)

qroox said:


> Good evening Tio..!! Check the spin-out thread if you have time. Got a small hesitation ^^..!!


I left you a Christmas present, enjoy.


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## qroox (Dec 26, 2013)

Here is my gift as well..!!


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## qroox (Dec 26, 2013)

N defficiency  ?


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## burgertime2010 (Dec 26, 2013)

Hey UB, do you ever take cuttings that have been topped on the mother plant? A double stalk cut would abide by this same procedure? Anything I should think about using this kind of technique.


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## qroox (Dec 26, 2013)

burgertime2010 said:


> Hey UB, do you ever take cuttings that have been topped on the mother plant? A double stalk cut would abide by this same procedure? Anything I should think about using this kind of technique.


Yep always take the top as a clone..


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## plaguedog (Dec 30, 2013)

qroox said:


> Yep always take the top as a clone..


 Same here when growing from seed, works just fine.


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## juts (Jan 1, 2014)

Topped my plants to get 4 colas 1 1/2 weeks ago but some of them are growing uneven like one branch is bigger and thicker than the other, lower branches are growing slower than the top branches.. did i do something wrong? need some help!


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## solst1ce (Jan 4, 2014)

subscribing to this


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 4, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Apical dominance at play. Most times both locations run about the same dominance and vigor as shown on page one. Sometimes the upper colas will be a little bigger than the ones below them. You'll get the feel of it come harvest.
> 
> Good luck,
> UB





Uncle Ben said:


> That was a hint to please go back to page one. I'm (we) get tired of answering the same old questions with every new crop of newbs. Folks ought to be making their own calls.....most times I just ignore the post.
> 
> The lady will survive as long as you don't cut below the first node. You're not building a piano, just do it.





juts said:


> Topped my plants to get 4 colas 1 1/2 weeks ago but some of them are growing uneven like one branch is bigger and thicker than the other, lower branches are growing slower than the top branches.. did i do something wrong? need some help!


WTF? You can't be bothered to go back 2 pages and READ?


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## juts (Jan 4, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> WTF? You can't be bothered to go back 2 pages and READ?


Thanks master Ben! forgive me, I posted before i backread, almost forgot i posted something on your thread
It was my first time topping lol. Used to do single cola plants til i got sick and tired of average yields 

Those tops make damn fine clones!

Again, Sorry.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 4, 2014)

juts said:


> Thanks master Ben! forgive me, I posted before i backread, almost forgot i posted something on your thread
> It was my first time topping lol. Used to do single cola plants til i got sick and tired of average yields
> 
> Those tops make damn fine clones!
> ...


No problem....good luck with your gardens.


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## qroox (Jan 5, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> WTF? You can't be bothered to go back 2 pages and READ?


I've finished like a 1000 pages of 10 posts each..Everything WORTHS it.Even the fu cking chit chat.How can they be so lazy these days.I am 23 and i have some sense in my head.


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## MuckyDucky (Jan 6, 2014)

I just wanted to say thanks Uncle Ben. I topped 6 C99's in an ebb&flow and most branches are strong growing.


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## Nizza (Jan 6, 2014)

i pulled down the two colas on the 3 15 gallon girls sideways today, in order to expose the bottom area of the canopy
i expect the plant to stop doing vertical growth, and all the nodes will come out to an even height?


i have a hard time watering the one in the way back, those are the 3- 15 gallon plants and they seem to have had a nice transplant, not a lot of stress symptoms

other than that , i've only been giving these water, they're in happy frog soil with a little fox farm ocean forest mixed in, some perlite.
pots are suspended above a drip tray . i used the smart pot handles and screwed a 2x4 into the studs of the walls and hung the handles on the screws

the chamber is 4 feet long with a 400w hps above (off for the pic) on a 4ft track, and two 4 foot dual t5's along each side

I was also planning on going up to a 600w HPS, as i hear you can re-use the old reflector and plug it into the new ballast, as long as the socket and cord can handle the higher amperage.
i'm trying to make sure this will work, too , because with the light track i'm scared i won't get that 25 watts per square foot with only the 400
alls i'd need is a bulb and ballast!
temps now are good, and i'm amazed at how much dust the intake filter catches

so what should i do now for nutrients, in your opinion, given my circumstances? I have the dyna gro, and don't mind going out and buying something else that might work better

also wondering , if you do LST how long do you usually wait to flower? i was planning on waiting a week or something then flipping, im expecting them to grow a half a foot or so in the week, and then come flower hopefully be twice as tall, maxing out my height restriction.

i'll also use lst in flower, but am trying to just plan stuff out as best i can with what i got


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 6, 2014)

Nizza, considering they are growing towards the east, I'd just take it one day at a time. 

Nutrients? Keep 'em green, and that's gonna be your call.


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## Babalao15 (Jan 8, 2014)

Dave, newb here, just reading through the thread. Been growing veggies all my life, but now I have other interests. Thanks for taking on helping folks out with redundant questions. I realize that not everyone comprehends on the same level, and not allowing author's editing on the forum does not help.
I'd be nice if the thread wasn't this big, but your contributions have made it better.

You seem to have experience knowledge, and experience is a great teacher.

Again, just a thanks...


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## Babalao15 (Jan 8, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> It means exactly what I wrote in the first sentence of the first page.
> 
> I think the mods and RIU are aware of the issues. Hopefully it won't stay like this for long. One reason why I was attracted to this place was the feel of the site. The previous format was fine, why they wanted to screw with it is confusing. Also, I can't find any mention of the changeover anywhere.
> 
> ...


Hey UB
I just want to say, I realize you don't have to do this, but it seems to me you really like it.
I don't like a lot of rules myself, but this is the ballpark, and it seems we all want to play. 
Teaching other folk can be very rewarding in of itself.
Mel Frank's insiders guide is awesome by the way. $10. Thanks...

Keep sticking it to the man, love, B.


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## steve28 (Jan 11, 2014)

what exactly is a true node?


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## EverythingsHazy (Jan 11, 2014)

steve28 said:


> what exactly is a true node?


Any node not including the "node" that the cotyledons are attached too since those arent considered true leaves.


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## Babalao15 (Jan 13, 2014)

Quick PS
There's a few others in here besides UB that contribute quite a bit. I won't mention anyone in particular as to not miss someone and cause a rift, but thanks all the same. You know who you are...

2nd PS
I'll be back to show you my new (2nd, 1st was cfl) indoors led grow with 4 colas. 
They are Sativas...

3rd PS
My first grow was very satisfying, for a first.
I think I learned a few things, foremost, prepare appropriately and after that the less you fuck with it the better. 

Peace out!


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## Defuzed (Jan 16, 2014)

yo Ben, how long did you veg that plant for altogether?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 16, 2014)

Defuzed said:


> yo Ben, how long did you veg that plant for altogether?


The plant on page #1 was vegged for 3-4 weeks. My plants grow quite fast.


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## qroox (Jan 16, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> The plant on page #1 was vegged for 3-4 weeks. My plants grow quite fast.


Hey UB.How is it going ? I hope everything is well.Still a fan here..!! I've started reading Mel Frank's Bible and it's an eye opener.I am planning to get a new lightining set up for a perpetual grow..I am currently having a 400watt HPS bubl+ballast for veg(and i actually use 250watts for flowering since it's dimmable)..How would you do it for a flowering grow space of 1,5m x 1,5m x 2,0m ? 600watt? 400? How would you do it?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 16, 2014)

qroox said:


> Hey UB.How is it going ? I hope everything is well.Still a fan here..!! I've started reading Mel Frank's Bible and it's an eye opener.I am planning to get a new lightining set up for a perpetual grow..I am currently having a 400watt HPS bubl+ballast for veg(and i actually use 250watts for flowering since it's dimmable)..How would you do it for a flowering grow space of 1,5m x 1,5m x 2,0m ? 600watt? 400? How would you do it?


Doing fine, thanks. A 400W in the right type of hood (small horizontal) is plenty of light.


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## qroox (Jan 17, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Doing fine, thanks. A 400W in the right type of hood (small horizontal) is plenty of light.


Thanks for the quick reply  . http://www.growhome.de/images/product_images/info_images/adjust-a-wings-avenger-large-reflektor-ref-16.png would it do the work ? or what should i be looking for ?


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## jointed (Jan 17, 2014)

Those AAW's are sweet bro. ALBFUCT uses em & he's been around here for quite some time. I don't think thats what UB had in mind but I'll let him tell you. And yes they will work superbly.


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## Organic Toker (Jan 17, 2014)

Hey Unc,

Hope you are doing fine. I think the rat in my house read your thread before I did . I have been battling with him for a while now but I stopped. He ate many seeds I had on the table but he also did a cropping on my plant.

The result-Check this out!



I was waiting to top this plant and the rhodent went ahead and saved me from my misery 

Quick question- Topping will increase bud sites, will it cause stress so as to express the hermie characters? I am growing Indian land race Sativa(I guess) as well, so they are 90% hermies till now from what I have seen. I sometimes crop the fuck outta them as I don't want too much height. Please shed your thoughts on this.

Thanks and much Love Unc,

Toker.


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## ProdigalSun (Jan 17, 2014)

Just began flowering this week.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 17, 2014)

qroox said:


> Thanks for the quick reply  . http://www.growhome.de/images/product_images/info_images/adjust-a-wings-avenger-large-reflektor-ref-16.png would it do the work ? or what should i be looking for ?


If the reflecting material is high quality, that will work fine. A gull wing design is what you want. Not sure what that perforated thing is in front of the lamp. If it's gonna be in the way of the arc tube, I'd remove it.

I retrofitted mine with specular material using a drill and rivet gun. 





OT. topping does not induce stress in any form or fashion. Rats eating your plants do. 

Looking good PS. Keep it green!


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## qroox (Jan 17, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> If the reflecting material is high quality, that will work fine. A gull wing design is what you want. Not sure what that perforated thing is in front of the lamp. If it's gonna be in the way of the arc tube, I'd remove it.
> 
> I retrofitted mine with specular material using a drill and rivet gun.
> 
> ...


i believe i can get that one.that's the best one i can get ? it has movable parts so it gets wider spectrum.let me show you which one i am going to buy


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## qroox (Jan 17, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> If the reflecting material is high quality, that will work fine. A gull wing design is what you want. Not sure what that perforated thing is in front of the lamp. If it's gonna be in the way of the arc tube, I'd remove it.
> 
> I retrofitted mine with specular material using a drill and rivet gun.
> 
> ...


https://www.google.gr/search?q=gavita+triple+star&client=firefox-a&hs=eYt&rls=org.mozilla:el:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=z17ZUpTDIoaf0QX4p4CIAw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=950#facrc=_&imgrc=JBHtTYQawnKONM%3A;oAV6h1mbNKy2tM;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.indoorgardens.fr%2Fimg%2Fcms%2Freflector_adjustment_2.jpg;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.indoorgardens.fr%2Ffr%2Freflecteurs-simples%2F3839-reflecteur-gavita-triplestar-123.html;723;417

got it


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## randybishop (Jan 17, 2014)

I just topped at the 2nd node, hope it works!


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 18, 2014)

qroox said:


> https://www.google.gr/search?q=gavita+triple+star&client=firefox-a&hs=eYt&rls=org.mozilla:el:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=z17ZUpTDIoaf0QX4p4CIAw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=950#facrc=_&imgrc=JBHtTYQawnKONM%3A;oAV6h1mbNKy2tM;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.indoorgardens.fr%2Fimg%2Fcms%2Freflector_adjustment_2.jpg;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.indoorgardens.fr%2Ffr%2Freflecteurs-simples%2F3839-reflecteur-gavita-triplestar-123.html;723;417
> 
> got it


Looks good.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 18, 2014)

randybishop said:


> I just topped at the 2nd node, hope it works!


And why wouldn't it?


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## randybishop (Jan 18, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> And why wouldn't it?


Never done it before, nervous chopping off half the plant!


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## ProdigalSun (Jan 18, 2014)

randybishop said:


> Never done it before, nervous chopping off half the plant!


I know the feeling. I know it works from experience, and I still hate doing it. It does work though, so I'm going to keep doing it this way.

Clone the top half.


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## jointed (Jan 18, 2014)

I do it too and the results are amazing.


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## Defuzed (Jan 19, 2014)

topped these 2 plants at 7th node and they loved it. 
8 ball Kush (right) you can only see 3 tops but there is 4. 
Northern lights x skunk (left) which is a week younger ^


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## DALE199595 (Jan 19, 2014)

What height did you switch them over? And did you cut of any of the bottom


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## ProdigalSun (Jan 19, 2014)

DALE199595 said:


> What height did you switch them over? And did you cut of any of the bottom


Who?

Please use quote feature, especially if you're the first poster on a new page.


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## jagga (Jan 20, 2014)

plants showed apical dominance and top node left the lower trailing behind so lower node was removed (u can see where it was in the pics)

both plants over 40 inches in height and have had some defoliation up top and a little lollipop down below.

medium used 100% fytocell one in normal hempy bucket and the other in a superoots airpot with a bucket bottom cable tied on for a airpot hempy

nutes- lucas formula with occasional dash of grow, roots excelerator, silicon

45 days after topping and day 17 flower
plant A Moby dick










45 days after topping and day 17 flower
Plant B Moby dick














both at home together


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## rollyouron (Jan 22, 2014)

I've used Uncle Buds technique starting from seed, and it works great. The question I have is about clones. My clones have a lot more growth on bottom than do starting from seed. Could I just trim all branches off but 4 then top, and get the four colas? Thanks


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## budman111 (Jan 30, 2014)

rollyouron said:


> I've used Uncle Buds technique


Is that Bens alter ego LOL


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## HumbleNMotivated (Jan 30, 2014)

rollyouron said:


> I've used Uncle Buds technique starting from seed, and it works great. The question I have is about clones. My clones have a lot more growth on bottom than do starting from seed. Could I just trim all branches off but 4 then top, and get the four colas? Thanks


I believe you can 4 top them only if your nodes are not alternating. If they are alternating nodes then you can't use the 4 topping technique.


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## papajohn (Jan 31, 2014)

randybishop said:


> I just topped at the 2nd node, hope it works!


only if your seedling is healthy & stress free..


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## Outdoor Fan (Feb 3, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Here's the FAQ, again, from another website:
> 
> FAQ
> 
> ...


This is my first post in this forum and I hope it fits with this thread because a lot of other topics are mentioned too...if not Ill gladly open a new thread.

Im seeking advice, especially from Uncle Ben, regarding topping for outdoor plants in order to turn them into a bush full of budding sites. Ive read most of UB's topping posts and a few other and Im really impressed with your thinking UB (by reading the correct advice from the start it seems Im lucky Ill not get dragged into Marijuana Forum paradigms, hopefully!!). Thanks for all your valuable contributions to the forum! Unfortunately I couldnt quite find what I was looking fora topping plan & guideline for the whole growing cycle. I figured this post would also help other fellow growers and hopefully respond to many more side questions. So I thank all of you and UB in advance.

So here is my plan for this years outdoor guerilla grow, which is also my first! (Indoor I completed 3 grows spread over a 5-6 year period but the last dates back to 2002!)

I live in Rome, Italy, about 6-7 miles from the sea where I can grow from March to October. I think the weather here is similar to certain parts of California. The summer is pretty hot (highs: 90-95°F, lows: 64-70°F), with very little rainfall during June, July and August (less than 2 rain on average for all 3 months) but quite high relative humidity (min 40%  max70%) for the period. In Fall/Winter its even more humid. 

I plan to grow seedlings outdoors directly in pots for about 1-1,5 months before transplanting to the final guerilla location. As with every guerilla location security is of the utmost importance, therefore Ill need to hand water the plants mostly at night. When specific work is needed (transplanting, bug spraying, etc.) Ill need to go there during the day. 

The guerilla patch receives plenty of sun each day, it is exposed to the south-east. By the way check out this really helpful online tool which combines Google maps with sunrise/sunset timetables and direction towards the horizon, sun height over the horizon, etc., to verify a locations sun exposure. Its really great, try it: http://www.suncalc.net/. 

I will install a 55 gallon green reservoir, 12V timer, 12V submersible pump and a 12V 7,2Ah battery for automatic watering (I have a back-up battery when the other is charging, in order to minimize trips to the patch and to ensure the pump be always in service if needed). I estimate Ill need to carry 55 gallons of water every other week during the dry months (consider the plants will be quite large by then). Any feedback on this estimate is more than welcome (approx. 4,5 gallons/week per plant). I sized my 12V battery and reservoir hold-up on the fact that I should be leaving for 2 weeks for holidays. I know leaving the plants unattended for 2 weeks (except for watering of course) is not the best thing to do but they should not suffer. A good watering with nutrients and heavy dose of bug sprays (neem oil, etc.) should do.I hope!

Right now Im monitoring the area with a gaming/trail camera which can detect animals/humans via the infrared heat emitted. It will automatically take night/day pictures and video. Some cameras can SMS/MMS or email the pictures/vids to you. In a way this feature increases security as one doesnt need to go to the patch to download/view the material, discovering in real time any rippers, law enforcement or animal which is destroying your crop. On the other hand you need a SIM card inside the camera to be able to SMS/email. In Italy SIM cards need to be registered so, unless you can provide fake ID, if police find the device and plants youre in big trouble! Another downside to this feature is that you may receive hundreds of SMS/MMS/emails in a short time period depending on where you install it and on the selected parameters like sensitivity and waiting time between detections. It is a good idea to have a flat SMS/MMS service on your cell phone rather than pay for all those SMS/MMS individually. After the plants have been transplanted the camera will monitor the patch 24/7 only. 

These are my strains:


3 x Dinafem Critical+ (feminized)
2 x Sensi Seeds Super Skunk (feminized)
9 other feminized strains I received from The Attitude Seed Bank for free during this Decembers promotion [Sharksbreath (DNA Genetics), Skunk 47 (World of Seeds Legend Collection), Dinachem (Dinafem), Green Crack (Cali Connection), Purple Trainwreck (Humboldt Seed Organization), Girl Scout Cookies (BCBD), Sage n Sour (TH Seeds), Kosher Tangie (DNA Genetics), Silver Kush Reserva Privada)]

I will germinate the seeds directly outdoors around April 15[SUP]th[/SUP] and transplant from mid-May to June 1[SUP]st [/SUP]depending on the outcome of the topping, plant size, etc.. My goal is to have 6 bushes maximum 7 feet high (for security reasons) once ready for harvest. My 6 candidate strains will be the 3 Critical+ and the 2 Super Skunk, chosen for their fast finishing times and other good traits of course! My sixth and last plant will surely be another indica dominant cross. However, for a successful plan 
I will plant 10 seeds total and decide which sixth strain will be worthy of being transplanted into the soil depending on the topping outcome, size, any issues with hermies due to feminized seeds, etc. Recommendations on which 6[SUP]th[/SUP] strain I should transplant are more than welcome as what should be the other 4 back-up strains, which Ill probably finish in bigger pots together with the 6 (not throwing away anything of course!).

I will dig 6 cylindrical holes about 60cm in diameter (approx. 2 feet) which converge into a cone towards the bottom [approx. 4550 cm deep (approx. 18-20 inches)], fill them with a good mix (approx. 21 gallons per hole) and install 2 x 3 mesh cages about 32 in diameter to sustain growth and prevent animal attacks. The holes will be lined up with chicken wire fencing 1 foot deep and the fencing will stick out another foot from the ground for extra protection from small animals. 

The mix for the 6 plants will be made up of (here too any advice is welcome):


400 Liters (approx. 107 gallons) of Biobizz Light Mix (Peat based substrate with perlite, slightly fertilized)
40 Liters (approx. 11 gallons) of Biobizz worm castings
Approx. 3 kg (6,6 pounds) of Bat Guano Kalong
50 Liters (approx. 13 gallons)
Maybe other good stuff (fish meal, bone meal, blood meal, mycorrhizae, tricoderma)

I plan to use use liquid organic fertilizers (grow and bloom) to supplement during the cycle as needed, following UBs advice Keep those leaves green and others
Given the planting time (mid April), the hole sizes, strains, sun exposure and good plant care I think I shouldnt have problems growing plants up to 6-7 feet high. Maybe quite the opposite is true, I might have trouble containing them! What do you outdoor growers think?

Bug & mold prevention will be handled by alternating sprayings of (again advice and tips welcome) some or all of:


Neem oil
Homemade solution of tobacco, garlic and chili peppers
Pirethrum
B.T. (Bacillus Thurgensis) during the right period for caterpillars

Now comes my primary concern/goal: how, when, where and with what frequency to prune/top the plants to stimulate lateral growth and therefore grow the plants into a bush? I know it depends on the strain, the growing conditions, the weather/exposure, etc., but Im seeking general advice and guidelines. I know Ill have to carefully observe each plant/strain and decide on the course of action for each individual plant/strain but it would really help me (and others Im sure) to follow a guideline similar to the following made up example (do not use as a reference, but has some logic to it):


At the end of month 1 (approx. mid May) top the plant at the last node or maybe two/three nodes down (but I doubt it as therell be fewer lateral branches). After 1 month the plant will probably have 4-6 nodes total. Top only if there are at least 3 nodes
After month 2 (approx. mid June) top the 2 main stems obtained from the previous step 1 and top only main shoots at the tip of long branches, as needed (or top only the main shoots at the tip of the first branches shooting from under step 1 topping, or top only the lowest branches from the ground. This sounds stupid though). Dont top/pinch too many main shoots from branches or it will stress the plants too much. Consider topping the main stem at different times respect to topping/pinching the main shoots on branches
After month 3 (approx. mid July) top the 4 main stems obtained from step 2 and top only main shoots at the tip of long branches, as needed (or some other technique). Dont top/pinch too many main shoots from branches or it will stress the plants too much. Consider topping the main stem at different times respect to topping/pinching the main shoots on branches
Stop topping after step 3 as flowering is approaching by the time the plants will have responded to the topping (with new growth/bud sites). Its never good to top when the plant is about to pre-flower/flower. The result will be 8 main topped stems and numerous topped/pinched side branches.

Without any advice (ok Ive watched many Youtube vids on topping/supercropping/LST and read many RIU posts/articles) thats exactly how I would do it. IOW, top 2 or 3 times the main stems and top main shoots from longer branches as needed. Maybe only 2 steps of main stem topping (yielding just 4 main tops from the main stem) are enough on some plants or on a particular strain, so observing the plant will help to decide. 

Im sure supercropping fits in the picture too, particularly as an alternative/option to topping main shoots on branches (at least thats my take on the technique). Besides reinforcing the branches (which is good because they will support more bud weight), I dont get how supercropping helps with bushing as it should not produce more branching, just widen/open the plant if you get what I mean. Any explanations/thoughts? 

I admit that while writing this post I realize I do have a reasonable idea (but maybe not winning) on how to get bushes but, you know, receiving UBs and the Forums blessing provides added awareness and certainty to what Im about to do.

Thank You!
Outdoor Fan


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## smokin away (Feb 4, 2014)

The last plant I had in the garden last year was a supercropping/UB top technique as an experiment. It will be my model this year as it did not grow tall and was strong enough to withstand quite a bit of weight without support. I think I will try some chicken wire over the top or something to contain/protect it.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 5, 2014)

Outdoor Fan said:


> This is my first post in this forum and I hope it fits with this thread because a lot of other topics are mentioned too...if not I&#8217;ll gladly open a new thread.


Welcome to the thread. Got to say, you have a lot planned, lot's of "ifs". I hope your site is almost 100% secure where you can tend to it freely and without too much trouble. If not, I wouldn't bother. Indoor is a lot more convenient and trouble free. You'll see some of my threads where I grow outdoors but it's easy for me except for the very high wind conditions and storms. Now, compare MY conditions with the challenges you'll face, and see if you really want to do this: 

My setup - get the seedling up to 3 or so nodes, top, bury as deep as I can in a 12 liter or so pot. Work into the top of the soil about 1 Tblsp. of a slow release 18-4-9 food. At the site I dig a 3" deep hole big with enough diameter to drop the pot into it so that the roots will eventually grow out of the 6 drain holes into the native soil thereby "re-purposing" water and minerals that wash out of the pot. I cover up the bottom of the pot with the soil removed using my foot. I run a 2 gph emitter off an irrigation line into the pot. Done! Very little cost or maintenance for the life of the plant. I'll post some pix. 

*Note:* you'll see in the first photo where I played games with mama natur again. Instead of topping above the 2nd node, I stripped off all leaf petioles below the top 2 nodes to get the same effect. 1/2 dozen of one, 6 of the other. Why? I wanted more root mass while getting to where I wanted to go. This plant was hit by strong winds splitting the crotch to just below soil level and with a little asphalt spray and duct tape, did just fine.  (photo #5)

You can top any time. All you need to understand is how the plant is going to react and then top. Topping to my 4 cola method will work fine.

Good luck!


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## Chargermane (Feb 5, 2014)

The2TimEr said:


> You just opened the thread and were hit with this? really strange, never known that to happen before.
> I'm not enjoying these ads all over the pages now though.
> here are the ladies last night 1 week 5 days since the first hairs, i could have vegged a little longer now it seems but they look happy enough.
> 
> ...



How many plants is that and did you top all of them? I will be doing a DWC bucket grow pretty soon in a 3x3 tent with 3 plants and was also wondering if I topped all 3 plants using UB technique, will I have enough room for 12 colas in a 3x3 tent?


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## 4000wHPS (Feb 5, 2014)

Hey Uncle Ben, great thread you've made here, excellent information.

I have a question for you, I'm confused at which point my 2nd "true" node is at... would you please point me in the right direction?




Never mind, after reading through some of the 5000+ posts in this thread have come to the conclusion that the lower red arrow is where I want to make my cut. (Skip the cotyledons node, skip the next node, then cut above the next node.)


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## Chargermane (Feb 5, 2014)

Also, I was thinking UB......after it growing to about 6 nodes the stem would be quite strong. I know its better to pinch it off with your fingers, but is it possible or is it too strong? Would cutting it with the scissors be ok?


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## Tagh90 (Feb 5, 2014)

Topped my crew 2 days ago, coming along nicely, little early for some but they will make it.
I accidentally decapitated 1 of the future colas on one of my girls  3 Cola plant I presume? lol

Thanks Uncle Ben for all the info you've shared over the years.

@Chargermane I use small trimming scissors


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## Outdoor Fan (Feb 6, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Welcome to the thread. Got to say, you have a lot planned, lot's of "ifs". I hope your site is almost 100% secure where you can tend to it freely and without too much trouble. If not, I wouldn't bother. Indoor is a lot more convenient and trouble free. You'll see some of my threads where I grow outdoors but it's easy for me except for the very high wind conditions and storms. Now, compare MY conditions with the challenges you'll face, and see if you really want to do this:
> 
> My setup - get the seedling up to 3 or so nodes, top, bury as deep as I can in a 12 liter or so pot. Work into the top of the soil about 1 Tblsp. of a slow release 18-4-9 food. At the site I dig a 3" deep hole big with enough diameter to drop the pot into it so that the roots will eventually grow out of the 6 drain holes into the native soil thereby "re-purposing" water and minerals that wash out of the pot. I cover up the bottom of the pot with the soil removed using my foot. I run a 2 gph emitter off an irrigation line into the pot. Done! Very little cost or maintenance for the life of the plant. I'll post some pix.
> 
> ...


Uncle Ben, thanks for your reply, I appreciate it!You really are the beacon of this forum!
In general I think my plan stands a good chance to be successful...that's why Iinvested in the trail camera to be extra sure of what I'm doing. Neverthelessas you say no site is 100% secure!

What I like about your setup is you're saving quite a lot of money and troubleby using only 12 liter pots. Most of all I like your considerations aboutwater+nutes leaching from drainage holes into the native soil. Sounds very wisebut isn't this "symbiosis" (you will allow me to use this improperterm yeah!?) mainly recommended for sites which have a good native soil (likenot too much clay, etc)? I have not tested the native soil but I've seen thereis some clay in it, however I haven't dug the holes so I've not done the"drainage test" yet (timing how fast a hole full of water takes). Ialso know of some sort of visual test with sample soil put in a transparentbottle with water, mix a little and observe the behavior of sediments of thebottle (at the bottom and on the sides). If my experiment goes smooth, nextyear I will amend (manure, etc) the native soil in November so that for thenext grow it'll be just perfect maybe making your method even more worthwhile.Or maybe your method is good regardless of native soils because by the time theroots reach the native soil they will be strong, big and healthy and they willeasily be able to supply nutrients to the plant and they will easily dig theirway through the native soil. Is this a valid argument?

When transplanting I'll go with burying the plant as deep as possible whetherit be in the pot or directly into the soil. Extra root development will bestimulated and I can only buy into that. Great tip! 

Regarding topping to shape the plants into a bush, I understand I'll need tofind my own way, get a feeling for it. I'll experiment, maybe some will gettopped to your 4 cola method, others differently so I'll evaluate the outcome.

One last thing: could you be so kind to provide links to your outdoor grows youmention (indoor also welcome), preferably with pics to document them? I haveseen your journal related to your great article on Spin-out chemical rootpruning but I don't think anything else. 

By the way very impressive root mass you got there!
Ciao
Outdoor Fan


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 6, 2014)

Just do it.


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## Chargermane (Feb 6, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Just do it.



UB, do you think there would be enough room for 3 plants in a 3x3 tent using your topping method?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 7, 2014)

Chargermane said:


> UB, do you think there would be enough room for 3 plants in a 3x3 tent using your topping method?


Don't have a clue, just do it and see. Plants are dynamic, tents are restrictive. I would never use a tent but that's just me.


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## GreenSanta (Feb 8, 2014)

Chargermane said:


> UB, do you think there would be enough room for 3 plants in a 3x3 tent using your topping method?


[video=youtube;cB5K8HgbBmI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB5K8HgbBmI[/video]

my first and only run in my 3x3 tent, I use it to veg my plants now... I think I got around 9 or 10 oz from that run the video was made halfway through budding...all the plants were 12/12 from seeds, 9 plants. If you are to veg them you could easily veg 4 plants and flip in that space using the topping method. I say 4 because its much easier to fill a square with a square number of plants, its hard to get the same coverage with 3 plants.


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## papajohn (Feb 9, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Welcome to the thread. Got to say, you have a lot planned, lot's of "ifs". I hope your site is almost 100% secure where you can tend to it freely and without too much trouble. If not, I wouldn't bother. Indoor is a lot more convenient and trouble free. You'll see some of my threads where I grow outdoors but it's easy for me except for the very high wind conditions and storms. Now, compare MY conditions with the challenges you'll face, and see if you really want to do this:
> 
> My setup - get the seedling up to 3 or so nodes, top, bury as deep as I can in a 12 liter or so pot. Work into the top of the soil about 1 Tblsp. of a slow release 18-4-9 food. At the site I dig a 3" deep hole big with enough diameter to drop the pot into it so that the roots will eventually grow out of the 6 drain holes into the native soil thereby "re-purposing" water and minerals that wash out of the pot. I cover up the bottom of the pot with the soil removed using my foot. I run a 2 gph emitter off an irrigation line into the pot. Done! Very little cost or maintenance for the life of the plant. I'll post some pix.
> 
> ...


ub your seedling soil mix is atleast 6" and another 6" from top soil to the first true node am i right? so lets say 12" buried huh


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 9, 2014)

papajohn said:


> ub your seedling soil mix is atleast 6" and another 6" from top soil to the first true node am i right? so lets say 12" buried huh


Probably 5-6" of the trunk buried on that one. Doesn't really matter.


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## bearkat42 (Feb 11, 2014)

This is, by far, the single greatest thread I've ever read on this subject, Hands down! I can't stop reading! Thanks to everyone participating (Obviously, especially Uncle Ben!).


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 11, 2014)

bearkat42 said:


> This is, by far, the single greatest thread I've ever read on this subject, Hands down! I can't stop reading! Thanks to everyone participating (Obviously, especially Uncle Ben!).


Glad you're enjoying the thread. Good luck!


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## Chargermane (Feb 13, 2014)

GreenSanta said:


> [video=youtube;cB5K8HgbBmI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB5K8HgbBmI[/video]
> 
> my first and only run in my 3x3 tent, I use it to veg my plants now... I think I got around 9 or 10 oz from that run the video was made halfway through budding...all the plants were 12/12 from seeds, 9 plants. If you are to veg them you could easily veg 4 plants and flip in that space using the topping method. I say 4 because its much easier to fill a square with a square number of plants, its hard to get the same coverage with 3 plants.



12/12 from seeds and you got 10 oz? Not too shabby. What kind of light did you have? I just got the solar storm 800w LED. Question though. Wouldn't 3 plants instead of 4 mean better light penetration? Less crowding no?


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## Chargermane (Feb 13, 2014)

Lol sorry...wrote that before I saw that video...but the question still stands


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## rockogtr (Feb 15, 2014)

nice write up, im deff gonna try this on my 1st grow


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## sj439 (Feb 16, 2014)

very interesting thread. thank uncle ben from India!


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## GreenSanta (Feb 16, 2014)

Chargermane said:


> 12/12 from seeds and you got 10 oz? Not too shabby. What kind of light did you have? I just got the solar storm 800w LED. Question though. Wouldn't 3 plants instead of 4 mean better light penetration? Less crowding no?


the idea with LEDs is to have a 1 foot thick even canopy, 1 foot below the tops of a thick foliage will still yield nice frosty buds anything lower will have to go in the hash pile. My best plant 12/12 from seed was my Agent Orange yielded 5.5 oz, look up my other youtube video, the plant is featured many time in it but it's the last plant in the video as well. 

The key to successful 12/12 from seed grow is to use hybrid (heavy indicas are ok but I find hybrid or sativas to perform better) is TO TRANSPLANT EARLY into a big container, from seedling right into a 7 gallons with organic supersoil at the bottom diluted solution with the upper third plain promix. I sometimes transplant few days old seedling when I have the room for it.

I invite you to go trough my journal I was moving away from 12/12 from seed for a while but I am starting to do more again, link in my signature.

[video=youtube;c-_yHBHupCs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-_yHBHupCs[/video]


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## Chargermane (Feb 17, 2014)

GreenSanta said:


> the idea with LEDs is to have a 1 foot thick even canopy, 1 foot below the tops of a thick foliage will still yield nice frosty buds anything lower will have to go in the hash pile. My best plant 12/12 from seed was my Agent Orange yielded 5.5 oz, look up my other youtube video, the plant is featured many time in it but it's the last plant in the video as well.
> 
> The key to successful 12/12 from seed grow is to use hybrid (heavy indicas are ok but I find hybrid or sativas to perform better) is TO TRANSPLANT EARLY into a big container, from seedling right into a 7 gallons with organic supersoil at the bottom diluted solution with the upper third plain promix. I sometimes transplant few days old seedling when I have the room for it.
> I invite you to go trough my journal I was moving away from 12/12 from seed for a while but I am starting to do more again, link in my signature.
> ...


Those look tasty boss! And thats all in soil too. So if you did dwc hydro you'd get a lot more there huh? The 12/12 from seed sounds very interesting. But its my first hydro grow and first grow in a long time. I want to see how much I can get off these plants with some vegging time. Ill be doing the strain called shoreline. I will do the 4 plants in my 3x3 tent. Im just worried if I do UB's topping method on those 4 plants there won't be enought room in the 3x3


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## Wreched75 (Feb 19, 2014)

Hey guys and UB. First off thank you UB for providing us with wealth of knowledge!!!! I've been a long time lurker cuz I'm a noob I've finally managed to get my seeds going and not mess up..... Not to bad I hope. I am pretty sure this question came up before but trying to sift through all 500+ pages to find it is nearly impossible. So here it is, I burnt my seedlings and they have recovered well, I'm at my 6th node and wanting to top just above the 2nd true node but some are either yellow and wilted or have broken off, would you suggest to still top above the 2nd true node? Thanks again for all the help.


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## simisimis (Feb 19, 2014)

You could chose two healthy nodes, top everything above them and prune everything bellow them, and when upcanning bury the pruned stem. It will root


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 19, 2014)

simisimis said:


> You could chose two healthy nodes, top everything above them and prune everything bellow them, and when upcanning bury the pruned stem. It will root


Yep, previous page, post #5210.


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## Wreched75 (Feb 19, 2014)

Omg that's freaking genius!!!!! Thanks UB I just post 5210 all I have to say is that is amazing and thank you thank you!!!!! Also thank you simisimis!!! I'll do that and post pics thanks again guys!!!!


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## cannabeast (Feb 19, 2014)

Hey Uncle Ben, I've been lurking a long time, but had not dared make a post(to this thread)until now. I don't mean to get off topic, so let me first say that I loved this topping technique and it has been very useful to me. I can not BELIEVE the amount of questions you have gotten repeating the same thing your very simple and straight forward guide describes. I'm impressed with yur patience to deal with these people, and admire that you take the time to respond anyway. I have been reading a lot last night, and wanted to ask you a question. I'm interested in your genetics. I often hear you refer to the seed pimps and such and them peddling their wares.. I agree...I am interested in what kind of hybrids you have really loved and where I can get my hands on them. Is there somewhere out there where I can get some amazing hybrid? It seems the more I search the net, the more junk is out for sale everyday to confuse my path of finding excellent unique genetics. I tried to send you this by private message but could not figure that out. Perhaps other people are interested in hearing some of your favorite strains(especially the hybrids that have peaked your interest) and where to get them as well, but I didn't think I should make a separate post for this, because I did not know if I would get your attention or not. Forgive my etiquette if I have broken some kind of rule or norm I am not aware of. I usually just lurk around here without posting. Many thanks in advance.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 19, 2014)

12 or so years ago I ordered "old school" genetics, crossed them and have enough beans to last me a life time, this after giving away hundreds.

Don't know how to advise except to order some and then cross what you like and do what I've done - start your own personal seedbank. I have, or had, a lot of faith in The Flying Dutchmen and Sagamartha. Sensi used to be good too.

Happy gardening~


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## cannabeast (Feb 22, 2014)

Very interesting. Thank you for such a prompt response, and the advise as well. I bought some Early Durban from the Flying Dutchman years back when I lived in Amsterdam, and did not get a very good crop from it. I lost a bit of faith in them after that, so I have not tried them again. Everything I have grown from Greenhouse seeds, and most but not all of what I grew from Barney's Farm, and Mr. Nice, so I might have to go with them. I like Mr Nice a lot. Nirvana had terrible genetics. Mandala is worthy of mention, I grew just one of their strains, Beyond the Brain, that was the best close-to-sativa that I have grown. 2/10 were super worth keeping for life as clones. I bet there is some good stuff out there to compete with it though, probably many winners in your personal seedbank. I have not grown anything from Sensi or Sagarmatha, but smoked a lot of their grass from coffee shops in Holland, and it was wonderful. I've been wanting to try some of both of their stuff, Especially Sensi, but I've been such a cheapskate, I have not tried them yet. I need to start my own personal seedbank like you suggested. Thank you for the great advise and support to us all here; I really appreciate you. I love your topping method and can really relate to what you said about the plants working for me, not me for the plants, referring Scrog. Scrog is interesting too, but too much work. Do you always plant new seeds, or do you sometimes find one plant that is just extraordinary out of all the seeds you have to grow, and decide to clone it and keep that particular one alive?

Happy Gardening yourself, as well, sir!

Edit: for grammar, spelling, and general flow for brevity.


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## budman111 (Feb 22, 2014)

cannabeast said:


> Nirvana had terrible genetics.


Still has, worst I have ever experienced.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 23, 2014)

cannabeast said:


> Very interesting. Thank you for such a prompt response, and the advise as well. I bought some Early Durban from the Flying Dutchman years back when I lived in Amsterdam, and did not get a very good crop from it. I lost a bit of faith in them after that, so I have not tried them again. Everything I have grown from Greenhouse seeds, and most but not all of what I grew from Barney's Farm, and Mr. Nice, so I might have to go with them. I like Mr Nice a lot. Nirvana had terrible genetics. Mandala is worthy of mention, I grew just one of their strains, Beyond the Brain, that was the best close-to-sativa that I have grown. 2/10 were super worth keeping for life as clones. I bet there is some good stuff out there to compete with it though, probably many winners in your personal seedbank. I have not grown anything from Sensi or Sagarmatha, but smoked a lot of their grass from coffee shops in Holland, and it was wonderful. I've been wanting to try some of both of their stuff, Especially Sensi, but I've been such a cheapskate, I have not tried them yet. I need to start my own personal seedbank like you suggested. Thank you for the great advise and support to us all here; I really appreciate you. I love your topping method and can really relate to what you said about the plants working for me, not me for the plants, referring Scrog. Scrog is interesting too, but too much work. Do you always plant new seeds, or do you sometimes find one plant that is just extraordinary out of all the seeds you have to grow, and decide to clone it and keep that particular one alive?
> 
> Happy Gardening yourself, as well, sir!
> 
> Edit: for grammar, spelling, and general flow for brevity.


I prefer popping seeds for the convenience.


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## youknowthekid! (Feb 27, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> 12 or so years ago I ordered "old school" genetics, crossed them and have enough beans to last me a life time, this after giving away hundreds.
> 
> Don't know how to advise except to order some and then cross what you like and do what I've done - start your own personal seedbank. I have, or had, a lot of faith in The Flying Dutchmen and Sagamartha. Sensi used to be good too.
> 
> Happy gardening~


Damn Uncle Ben, that's a pretty awesome idea that I've yet to even consider! I've been thinking about buying a few mothers and keeping them for around a year, but why not start a personal bank!

When you cross your favorites how do you do quality control with your newly created seeds? Or do you just pop a ton into soil, chop the shitty pheno's, then gender them before flowering? 

To start my collection, if I buy 10 regular Sour D's I'm bound to get both genders; so what then? Pollinate the girls to the fullest, shake 'em down and assume the quality will already be there since they came from a very stable seedbank?


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## Chargermane (Feb 27, 2014)

UB I have a question. Say i'm at my 2 week of veg or whenever it is I cut above the 2nd node and I'm at a certain ppms for that week, after I cut it would I go back to a lower level of ppms say if the plant were younger or would it be the same amount? ( doing a dwc grow ) Would that set me back to the 1st week of veg?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 27, 2014)

youknowthekid! said:


> Damn Uncle Ben, that's a pretty awesome idea that I've yet to even consider! I've been thinking about buying a few mothers and keeping them for around a year, but why not start a personal bank!
> 
> When you cross your favorites how do you do quality control with your newly created seeds? Or do you just pop a ton into soil, chop the shitty pheno's, then gender them before flowering?
> 
> To start my collection, if I buy 10 regular Sour D's I'm bound to get both genders; so what then? Pollinate the girls to the fullest, shake 'em down and assume the quality will already be there since they came from a very stable seedbank?


Take the best and cross them. Don't make this into some silly thing based on romance and hype. 

Most of the kids will grow up to be winners.


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## adamcarr1 (Feb 28, 2014)

Awesome thread this. Just awesome. A question though: You cut the stem above the 2nd true node. Does this apply exactly
the same if the nodes are not together -- if the plant has alternate nodes? I'd cut above the 4th branch? If this seems like
a noob question, I'm sorry. haha. Coming up to the end of my 3rd grow so I guess I'm still kind of a noob.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 1, 2014)

adamcarr1 said:


> Awesome thread this. Just awesome. A question though: You cut the stem above the 2nd true node. Does this apply exactly
> the same if the nodes are not together -- if the plant has alternate nodes? I'd cut above the 4th branch? If this seems like
> a noob question, I'm sorry. haha. Coming up to the end of my 3rd grow so I guess I'm still kind of a noob.


The nodes must be directly opposing for this method to work. If the nodes are alternating you will not get the same results.


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## DonPetro (Mar 1, 2014)

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/802471-keeping-real-organic-journey.html


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## Billy Madison (Mar 2, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/organics/802471-keeping-real-organic-journey.html


strong stem and branches! nice


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## Billy Madison (Mar 2, 2014)

I'm topping a few strains at the moment. white widow x big bud, royal queen flower power and critical. I just topped the ww to see how it would go. She recovered from light burn and was behind the others. Anyhow here's a pic of her around 2 days after topping, letting the other ones develop 5-6 nodes.













I'll be topping this girl soon, she's 15 days old







Thank you uncle ben for this amazing contribution!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 2, 2014)

Would some of you more normal folks please ping potroast to take out the trash.

Thank you


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## OChack (Mar 2, 2014)

Uncle Ben, How long do you wait after topping before flipping into flower? 

Great Thread and Great Technique Uncle Ben! Thank You for Sharing!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 2, 2014)

OChack said:


> Uncle Ben, How long do you wait after topping before flipping into flower?
> 
> Great Thread and Great Technique Uncle Ben! Thank You for Sharing!


Until it grows about 12-16" tall. About 2 weeks.


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## stickybuds* (Mar 2, 2014)

great thread Uncle Ben 
looks like you have helped a lot of growers 

I have a question about topping, I wait till the 3-4 set of nodes have grown 1 inch long and have small leaves on (at least 1/2" long) before topping as there well established side shoots and grow quick.
do you find the same thing or do you cut the plant above 2-3 set of nodes and hope for the best ?


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## cdd10 (Mar 2, 2014)

stickybuds* said:


> great thread Uncle Ben
> looks like you have helped a lot of growers
> 
> I have a question about topping, I wait till the 3-4 set of nodes have grown 1 inch long and have small leaves on (at least 1/2" long) before topping as there well established side shoots and grow quick.
> do you find the same thing or do you cut the plant above 2-3 set of nodes and hope for the best ?


First page he answers that  5-6 nodes he says/recommends and you can clone the cutting.


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## qroox (Mar 2, 2014)

cdd10 said:


> First page he answers that  5-6 nodes he says/recommends and you can clone the cutting.


oh man if you read the whole thread,you will get so angy at some people.the same questions over and over and over again..Ub is keeping it simple ,as it should be


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## stickybuds* (Mar 2, 2014)

thanks, looking at the picture, so the side shoot connecting them to the main shoot are about 1-2" long and the fan leave between the side shoot and the main shoot is getting full light as all 4 leaves make a cross shape and none of them are shaded, so all 4 shoots Lucky have the same sized fan leaves and all become the apical dominance shoots so all 4 shoots grow equal in size


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## Wait, what? (Mar 2, 2014)

Uncle Ben, do I cut between the second and third nodes, or the top?

Just kidding, thanks for the lesson.


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## OChack (Mar 3, 2014)

Uncle Ben, do you let the girl recover from topping before putting her into flower?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 3, 2014)

OChack said:


> Uncle Ben, do you let the girl recover from topping before putting her into flower?


"Recovery" implies damage. There is no damage or stress like I've said a dozen times. You get your output and when you're satisfied with the foliage mass and size of the plant then let her flower.


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## lilroach (Mar 3, 2014)

If you would like to see a few grows done using Uncle Ben's topping technique, click on my signature link linking all my grows. There you will find two grows from beginning to end following UB's advice.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 3, 2014)

stickybuds* said:


> great thread Uncle Ben
> looks like you have helped a lot of growers
> 
> I have a question about topping, I wait till the 3-4 set of nodes have grown 1 inch long and have small leaves on (at least 1/2" long) before topping as there well established side shoots and grow quick.
> do you find the same thing or do you cut the plant above 2-3 set of nodes and hope for the best ?


Defoiliation is hoping for the best. Topping for 2 or 4 main colas is actual horticulture and botany.


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## Billy Madison (Mar 4, 2014)

Royal Queen Flower Power 90% Sativa from South Africa - Topped at 3 weeks old between 2nd and 3rd node for 4 colas

This is 24 hours later
She is in the upper left corner - the day before.


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## j.ride (Mar 5, 2014)

Hey Uncle Ben. I'd like to say thank you. So, thank you!


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## elkukupanda (Mar 6, 2014)

My man UB,
How is everything going? I have grown interest in getting a chlorophyl reader. What do you recommend for the price?
Best regards,
Your Pal
Elkukupanda


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 6, 2014)

j.ride said:


> Hey Uncle Ben. I'd like to say thank you. So, thank you!


Thanks for saying thanks!



elkukupanda said:


> My man UB,
> How is everything going? I have grown interest in getting a chlorophyl reader. What do you recommend for the price?
> Best regards,
> Your Pal
> Elkukupanda


Don't have one. I just read my plants. If they're dark green, they're full of chlorophyll and that's a good thing!


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## qroox (Mar 6, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Thanks for saying thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Don't have one. I just read my plants. If they're dark green, they're full of chlorophyll and that's a good thing!


UB you're the man mate..!! remember me ? i've already topped a male succesfully for 2 colas and i've topped my auto for a little bushier structure above 4th node.It's so nice to see people thanking you after so long.Your contribution was great.Got a fix for a calcium deficiency ? I think i got one ( you could check my sig or i can just pop a pic here ). I think i should add some dolomite lime to fix it..1/2 teaspoon per gal was the reccomendation..It's not too severe but i'd like it more if it was green .I got a few strains going..aiming for the best..!! cheers man!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 6, 2014)

qroox said:


> UB you're the man mate..!! remember me ? i've already topped a male succesfully for 2 colas and i've topped my auto for a little bushier structure above 4th node.It's so nice to see people thanking you after so long.Your contribution was great.Got a fix for a calcium deficiency ? I think i got one ( you could check my sig or i can just pop a pic here ). I think i should add some dolomite lime to fix it..1/2 teaspoon per gal was the reccomendation..It's not too severe but i'd like it more if it was green .I got a few strains going..aiming for the best..!! cheers man!


Howdy, sure I remember you. Glad to hear things are working out.

Sure you got a Ca deficiency? Are your plants getting Ca either through the soil, foods or water source? Most deficiencies are mis-diagnosed by the grower and some deficiencies mask others. It's a tough call.


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## qroox (Mar 6, 2014)

Yeah a friend i've made here told me that it could be something else.I've been feeding a solution of 10-3-7 +micros from start to finish.They are autos on day 55,which is pretty normal to suck themselves up but i wanna maximize what they can do.I do have some N def as well ( which i try to fix as well ).Also some purplish stems.Got any ideas ? My fert doesn't supplement Ca ,neither does my soil.Water should have some traces but i've never had a guaranteed analysis.Got any ideas ? I can take some shots now as well


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 6, 2014)

What you've been feeding them doesn't tell me enough. How much, at what frequency etc. If there is no Ca being provided then a tsp. of dolomite lime every now and then will take care of that. Actually looks like a N plus perhaps Mg deficiency. Link me to the fertilizer product. It must have a GA label. An ad does me no good.


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## qroox (Mar 6, 2014)

Yeap that's totally true.Well i've been feeding full strength the last 3 waterings.They took it all,10 ml per lt as the product prescribes for summer months ( where growth on citrus gets intense ? i do not know this much  ).No signs of burns.They are on a 20/4 schedule.I've been feeding some mg at 2ml per lt from bud candy (AN product - wish i knew more ) . IT SEEMS that one of the plants that i fed 1/3 teaspoon dolomite lime per lt ( which is probably 2/3 of a full dose ) got a little better in 2 days.Not so purple stems and greener at the bottom.I can't find an analysis online so i'll have to type it here.N was lacking tho they were fed pretty good..


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## qroox (Mar 6, 2014)

So here's the GA : 
10% N (3,9 nitrate , 2,8 ammoniac ,3,3 urinal)
3% soluble phosphorus pentoxide
7% soluble potassium oxide
Soluble Micros : B 0,01 % Barium
Cu 0,02% Copper
Fe 0,10% Iron
Mg 0,01% Magnesium
MO 0,002% Molybdenum
Zn 0,002% Zinc

That's what's included


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 7, 2014)

pentoxide and oxide? For a soil food that's weird, never heard of such. Usually phosphorous is delivered in the form of a phosphate or phosphoric acid and potassium in the form of a chloride or sulphate.


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## Miley T (Mar 7, 2014)

Hey UB,
First post on rollitup. Been a reader for a minute though.
Question on the topping technique. Will this work with a SOG system? Specifically, how soon can i force flower after topping, and how much space should i provide per plant to achieve a canopy without crowding plants. It seems like a great way to maximize SOG yield w/o putting out for more plants and a less extensive hydro system.
Thankx in advance


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## qroox (Mar 8, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> pentoxide and oxide? For a soil food that's weird, never heard of such. Usually phosphorous is delivered in the form of a phosphate or phosphoric acid and potassium in the form of a chloride or sulphate.


Well they do sell it for a soil food..I have some dyna gro foliage pro and some jack's classic all purpose food..which one should i go for  ?


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## qroox (Mar 8, 2014)

Miley T said:


> Hey UB,
> First post on rollitup. Been a reader for a minute though.
> Question on the topping technique. Will this work with a SOG system? Specifically, how soon can i force flower after topping, and how much space should i provide per plant to achieve a canopy without crowding plants. It seems like a great way to maximize SOG yield w/o putting out for more plants and a less extensive hydro system.
> Thankx in advance


A week of vegging after you topped is what it takes to get them ready to switch.It's GREAT for Sog.It keeps your canopy on 4 heavy colas..what else do ya need  ?It is a great way to maximize everything.You need HEALTHY plants to top and flip to flower tho.Keep them green start to finish.And read this thread.All of it.


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## simisimis (Mar 8, 2014)

qroox said:


> A week of vegging after you topped is what it takes to get them ready to switch.It's GREAT for Sog.It keeps your canopy on 4 heavy colas..what else do ya need  ?It is a great way to maximize everything.You need HEALTHY plants to top and flip to flower tho.Keep them green start to finish.And read this thread.All of it.


Well it's a bit more than that.. Depends on what strain you're growing. How much space you've got. e.g. 2 days ago I topped upcanned and flipped all at the same time. Plant was pushing side shoots right away with no stress signs. I had to flip, cause I grow Kali Mist, which is a 14 weeks flowering sativa, and with my 150W + 70W CMH HID it will take even longer. Also I have only 2 feet of max vertical growth so I had no choice but to flip it.
You are forming your plant to fit your space. I top for 4, but not to get 4 colas, but to get even growth on four different directions as I train them low.

I'd say flip time and other actions depend on how your girl have to look in your grow room at her harvest day 
Cheers!


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 8, 2014)

qroox said:


> Well they do sell it for a soil food..I have some dyna gro foliage pro and some jack's classic all purpose food..which one should i go for  ?


Foliage Pro grows nice plants for sure.


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## qroox (Mar 8, 2014)

simisimis said:


> Well it's a bit more than that.. Depends on what strain you're growing. How much space you've got. e.g. 2 days ago I topped upcanned and flipped all at the same time. Plant was pushing side shoots right away with no stress signs. I had to flip, cause I grow Kali Mist, which is a 14 weeks flowering sativa, and with my 150W + 70W CMH HID it will take even longer. Also I have only 2 feet of max vertical growth so I had no choice but to flip it.
> You are forming your plant to fit your space. I top for 4, but not to get 4 colas, but to get even growth on four different directions as I train them low.
> 
> I'd say flip time and other actions depend on how your girl have to look in your grow room at her harvest day
> Cheers!


Well there is no schedule .You adjust to your needs.I grow by that rule.I just gave him a foolproof way.


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## simisimis (Mar 8, 2014)

Yeah man, not saying your way is wrong. Cause it would work for most cases. It's just when I remember myself blindly following the procedure. I just wanted to point that "stress from which plants needs to recover" or "one week of veg after topping" is more something that fits your grow plan, not something that is really needed. ppl here say plant triples in size when flipped. Well yeah, but some plants get to 3' when flipped at 3".. Just saying


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 8, 2014)

Miley T said:


> Hey UB,
> First post on rollitup. Been a reader for a minute though.
> Question on the topping technique. Will this work with a SOG system? Specifically, how soon can i force flower after topping, and how much space should i provide per plant to achieve a canopy without crowding plants. It seems like a great way to maximize SOG yield w/o putting out for more plants and a less extensive hydro system.
> Thankx in advance


You're trying to put gardening in a box, one size fits all. Just try to best guess and go with the results.


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## SirGreenThumb (Mar 8, 2014)

Hey Ben, can you tell me why one plant is thriving off this soil but my auto isn't? 



I flushed it and it started getting better with no more clawing and the new growth was looking nice and then:


Buds look great though and I have 14 tops.
View attachment 3017216


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## thecannacove (Mar 8, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> A seedling is foolproof, a clone that shows alternating nodes (phytollaxy) will not work. Go long days, hit 'em with N, veg and when they return to opposing nodes, you can top to get 2 or 4 main colas instead the usual one.
> 
> UB


Hey UB, first off, great thread; you rarely see a forum member so dedicated to helping others to the extent you do and especially keeping a thread alive and continuing to answer questions of the save topic for over 5 years!

That said, I have a question based on the above quoted reply regarding alternating nodes (for topping a clone that already exhibits phytollaxy). Above you say to bring the clone back into a vegetative state by way of higher nitrogen levels and obviously longer light schedule. My question is once the nodes are opposing again do I still pinch (cut) just above the 2nd node, or just above the second _opposing_ node? I know this is probably a stupid question and assume the latter but would like to get your guidance rather than assume.

Thanks Ben!


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## SirGreenThumb (Mar 8, 2014)

thecannacove said:


> Hey UB, first off, great thread; you rarely see a forum member so dedicated to helping others to the extent you do and especially keeping a thread alive and continuing to answer questions of the save topic for over 5 years!
> 
> That said, I have a question based on the above quoted reply regarding alternating nodes (for topping a clone that already exhibits phytollaxy). Above you say to bring the clone back into a vegetative state by way of higher nitrogen levels and obviously longer light schedule. My question is once the nodes are opposing again do I still pinch (cut) just above the 2nd node, or just above the second _opposing_ node? I know this is probably a stupid question and assume the latter but would like to get your guidance rather than assume.
> 
> Thanks Ben!


It should be the same as the plant you had taken clones from. Once the clone develops a good root system and the nodes are alternating again you would let it grow like you would a non clone and top.

Edit: the only stupid question is the one not asked.


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## rollyouron (Mar 8, 2014)

I've done the seeds it's easy to tell where the second node is. Works very well! With my clones there's so many new branches that it hard to tell where second node is. Could I top and trim off all the branches but 4 and get the Uncle Ben's 4 colas?


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## thecannacove (Mar 8, 2014)

SirGreenThumb said:


> It should be the same as the plant you had taken clones from. Once the clone develops a good root system and the nodes are alternating again you would let it grow like you would a non clone and top.
> 
> Edit: the only stupid question is the one not asked.


... yes but there will be alternating nodes under the opposing nodes. So, top just above the second *opposing* node, correct?


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## thecannacove (Mar 8, 2014)

rollyouron said:


> I've done the seeds it's easy to tell where the second node is. Works very well! With my clones there's so many new branches that it hard to tell where second node is. Could I top and trim off all the branches but 4 and get the Uncle Ben's 4 colas?


Not to my understanding. See UB's advice in the quote I posted about an hour ago. As he states, before typing, bring the clone back into a vegetative state to where it's creating opposing nodes again. My question is only where I would then top it at.


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## SirGreenThumb (Mar 8, 2014)

thecannacove said:


> ... yes but there will be alternating nodes under the opposing nodes. So, top just above the second *opposing* node, correct


Correct, because it will have already started growing its true nodes.


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## thecannacove (Mar 8, 2014)

SirGreenThumb said:


> Correct, because it will have already started growing its true nodes.


Got it. Thanks for confirming SGT!


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## SirGreenThumb (Mar 8, 2014)

thecannacove said:


> Got it. Thanks for confirming SGT!


You're welcome..


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## qroox (Mar 9, 2014)

simisimis said:


> Yeah man, not saying your way is wrong. Cause it would work for most cases. It's just when I remember myself blindly following the procedure. I just wanted to point that "stress from which plants needs to recover" or "one week of veg after topping" is more something that fits your grow plan, not something that is really needed. ppl here say plant triples in size when flipped. Well yeah, but some plants get to 3' when flipped at 3".. Just saying


Yup.Same way i did.Fuck schedules man.. . I 'm having a hassle right now ,i got to figure where the fuck i will fit all of my plants.I did start with a lot  . Nevermind tho.All the ladies will fit to fulfil their purpose.Happy Grows guyz..!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 9, 2014)

SirGreenThumb said:


> Hey Ben, can you tell me why one plant is thriving off this soil but my auto isn't?
> 
> I flushed it and it started getting better with no more clawing and the new growth was looking nice and then:
> 
> Buds look great though and I have 14 tops.


Without knowing what you did on a day to day basis, no I can't. 



thecannacove said:


> Hey UB, first off, great thread; you rarely see a forum member so dedicated to helping others to the extent you do and especially keeping a thread alive and continuing to answer questions of the save topic for over 5 years!
> 
> That said, I have a question based on the above quoted reply regarding alternating nodes (for topping a clone that already exhibits phytollaxy). Above you say to bring the clone back into a vegetative state by way of higher nitrogen levels and obviously longer light schedule. My question is once the nodes are opposing again do I still pinch (cut) just above the 2nd node, or just above the second _opposing_ node? I know this is probably a stupid question and assume the latter but would like to get your guidance rather than assume.
> 
> Thanks Ben!


Look, if you MUST do this method and want to do it nice and easy with guaranteed results then start with seeds.


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## SirGreenThumb (Mar 9, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Without knowing what you did on a day to day basis, no I can't.


I did nothing but water with 6.8ph water.


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## qroox (Mar 9, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> pentoxide and oxide? For a soil food that's weird, never heard of such. Usually phosphorous is delivered in the form of a phosphate or phosphoric acid and potassium in the form of a chloride or sulphate.


Well it definitely is .I got myself some Dyna Gro Foliage Pro + Jack's all purpose food.Which one should i try first ? I want to go steady and safe.Get a feel of what it does and how and advance..


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## thecannacove (Mar 9, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Look, if you MUST do this method and want to do it nice and easy with guaranteed results then start with seeds.


Hmmm yes, that would be ideal.. but does absolutely no good if I have clones and no seeds... My apologies for wanting to try a new training technique. How dare I believe you have a sound technique and wish to use it on a clone.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 9, 2014)

thecannacove said:


> Hmmm yes, that would be ideal.. but does absolutely no good if I have clones and no seeds... My apologies for wanting to try a new training technique. How dare I believe you have a sound technique and wish to use it on a clone.


Excuse me?


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## Samwell Seed Well (Mar 9, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Excuse me?


he said

.................thanks but no thanks ......ass


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## Wait, what? (Mar 10, 2014)

How long did the buds in the original post take to dry? I've never grown one half that big and was wondering how much time to add to my odor control in the closet


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## Miley T (Mar 10, 2014)

qroox said:


> A week of vegging after you topped is what it takes to get them ready to switch.It's GREAT for Sog.It keeps your canopy on 4 heavy colas..what else do ya need  ?It is a great way to maximize everything.You need HEALTHY plants to top and flip to flower tho.Keep them green start to finish.And read this thread.All of it.


Thanks UB, Been reading through it the past few days... 530 pages of info!! 
Another question, does anyone know about the Freedom 35 strain from Dr Green Thumb? Wondered how well it would respond to this technique, if anyone has any experience


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## simisimis (Mar 10, 2014)

Miley T said:


> Thanks UB, Been reading through it the past few days... 530 pages of info!!
> Another question, does anyone know about the Freedom 35 strain from Dr Green Thumb? Wondered how well it would respond to this technique, if anyone has any experience


It's MJ right? Then it will respond very well. 
If not, then you have some other problems in your garden


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## thecannacove (Mar 10, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Excuse me?


Excuse you what? Perhaps I misread the intent and tone of your response, but i don't feel that's the case. I first posted gratitude for being a great asset to this forum and mentor to many fellow growers, then asked a question and you answer it like you're rolling your eyes on top of a pedestal. If I was working with seeds I wouldn't have asked the question. You've obviously eluded to the fact that it can be done in past posts, I was simply seeking clarification on where cut should occur for these circumstances. No worries though, I received helpful answers from other members. 

A polite answer may have looked something like this: Well this method certainly provides more predictable results when used on a plant started from seed, but if you plan to try on a clone, I would recommend cutting just above the 2nd ______ (opposing or alternating) node. Or just a one word reply of "alternating" or "opposing" would have sufficed.

I guess in the end if you didn't want to answer a question, simply don't answer it. If you do, great. Nobody is obligated to answer another person's question, but when a person is showing gratitude for past information you've shared and acknowledging a helpful thread I would at least think if you _do_ decide to answer, that it wouldn't be a quick supercilious, disdainful remark.

Regardless of this trivial group of posts I do still respect you for what you've given the MJ community and harbor no animosity.


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## thecannacove (Mar 10, 2014)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> he said
> 
> .................thanks but no thanks ......ass


lol, nope, not what I said. But a very decent interpretation of what one could have said


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 10, 2014)

thecannacove said:


> Excuse you what? Perhaps I misread the intent and tone of your response, but i don't feel that's the case. I first posted gratitude for being a great asset to this forum and mentor to many fellow growers, then asked a question and you answer it like you're rolling your eyes on top of a pedestal. If I was working with seeds I wouldn't have asked the question. You've obviously eluded to the fact that it can be done in past posts, I was simply seeking clarification on where cut should occur for these circumstances. No worries though, I received helpful answers from other members.
> 
> A polite answer may have looked something like this: Well this method certainly provides more predictable results when used on a plant started from seed, but if you plan to try on a clone, I would recommend cutting just above the 2nd ______ (opposing or alternating) node. Or just a one word reply of "alternating" or "opposing" would have sufficed.
> 
> ...


2nd time - Look, if you MUST do this method and want to do it nice and easy with guaranteed results then start with seeds.


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## thecannacove (Mar 10, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> 2nd time - Look, if you MUST do this method and want to do it nice and easy with guaranteed results then start with seeds.


2nd time - Excuse you what? Perhaps I misread the intent and tone of your response, but i don't feel that's the case. I first posted gratitude for being a great asset to this forum and mentor to many fellow growers, then asked a question and you answer it like you're rolling your eyes on top of a pedestal. If I was working with seeds I wouldn't have asked the question. You've obviously eluded to the fact that it can be done in past posts, I was simply seeking clarification on where cut should occur for these circumstances. No worries though, I received helpful answers from other members. 

A polite answer may have looked something like this: Well this method certainly provides more predictable results when used on a plant started from seed, but if you plan to try on a clone, I would recommend cutting just above the 2nd ______ (opposing or alternating) node. Or just a one word reply of "alternating" or "opposing" would have sufficed.

I guess in the end if you didn't want to answer a question, simply don't answer it. If you do, great. Nobody is obligated to answer another person's question, but when a person is showing gratitude for past information you've shared and acknowledging a helpful thread I would at least think if you _do_ decide to answer, that it wouldn't be a quick supercilious, disdainful remark.

Regardless of this trivial group of posts I do still respect you for what you've given the MJ community and harbor no animosity.


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## Guitar Man (Mar 11, 2014)

This is my 3rd grow, using UB's topping technique. Each time, I get just a little better at this awesome way to maximize yield and use of grow space. This plant is a Purple Cookie at week 5 of flowering. She is about 3-4 weeks from chop chop. She also has a cola that is Albino. I took one shot of that, and so far, the yellow leaves are keeping their color within the buds. Very EPIC looking! The plant is healthy and vigorous, drinking over 5 gallons of water per week.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 12, 2014)

Guitar Man said:


> This is my 3rd grow, using UB's topping technique. Each time, I get just a little better at this awesome way to maximize yield and use of grow space. This plant is a Purple Cookie at week 5 of flowering. She is about 3-4 weeks from chop chop. She also has a cola that is Albino. I took one shot of that, and so far, the yellow leaves are keeping their color within the buds. Very EPIC looking! The plant is healthy and vigorous, drinking over 5 gallons of water per week.
> View attachment 3019946View attachment 3019944View attachment 3019945View attachment 3019948View attachment 3019943View attachment 3019947


Looking gude!


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## kryptoniteglo (Mar 12, 2014)

Guitar Man said:


> This is my 3rd grow, using UB's topping technique. Each time, I get just a little better at this awesome way to maximize yield and use of grow space. This plant is a Purple Cookie at week 5 of flowering. She is about 3-4 weeks from chop chop. She also has a cola that is Albino. I took one shot of that, and so far, the yellow leaves are keeping their color within the buds. Very EPIC looking! The plant is healthy and vigorous, drinking over 5 gallons of water per week.
> View attachment 3019946View attachment 3019944View attachment 3019945View attachment 3019948View attachment 3019943View attachment 3019947


Looking VERY good! How long did she veg for?


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## simisimis (Mar 13, 2014)

Looking real nice guitar man!
Athough you might want to keep the light further from tops, it breaks the chlorophyl and this is how you get albino buds.


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## Samwell Seed Well (Mar 13, 2014)

simisimis said:


> Looking real nice guitar man!
> Athough you might want to keep the light further from tops, it breaks the chlorophyl and this is how you get albino buds.


only in UBs thread^^^...........whats that lumens/watts per square inch...or for capt obvious ....albino bud.........love it..


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## Pinworm (Mar 14, 2014)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> only in UBs thread^^^...........whats that lumens/watts per square inch...or for capt obvious ....albino bud.........love it..


What means a hermed plant. Why come is my plants yellowd? Is 3 cfls going to fetch a pounds?


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## simisimis (Mar 14, 2014)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> only in UBs thread^^^...........whats that lumens/watts per square inch...or for capt obvious ....albino bud.........love it..





Pinworm said:


> What means a hermed plant. Why come is my plants yellowd? Is 3 cfls going to fetch a pounds?


Who knows, maybe one day you'll mature and stop spamming your ignorant crap, although i doubt about that


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## Guitar Man (Mar 14, 2014)

kryptoniteglo said:


> Looking VERY good! How long did she veg for?


Thanks! I vegged her for 4 weeks.


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## Guitar Man (Mar 14, 2014)

simisimis said:


> Looking real nice guitar man!
> Athough you might want to keep the light further from tops, it breaks the chlorophyl and this is how you get albino buds.


Thanks! No offense about your albino theory, but that is not the case. I saw the albino genetic during the early stages of veg when she was sitting under a florescent bulb and only a few inches tall. I also did plenty of research about this issue and this can happen to many other plants besides Cannabis. I have a close relative who works as a professional in the business of large scale crop production and he sees this all of the time in other plant structures when he inspects the fields for any problems.

Also, this cola is sitting/growing below the other main towers and is much further from the lights. These are only 150 Watt HPS lights, so I am able to keep my plants closer than I would with other high wattage lamps. I also keep accurate records of temps and plant responses from my many other previous grows, and I can safely keep my upper tops 5-6 inches from the lights without any trouble.

Now, if you were using a 500 watt lamp with poor ventilation, there might be some problems similar to what I'm dealing with, but this cola is healthy and vibrant, and the yellow leaves are keeping the yellow within the bud structure. A very cool thing to see! Look it up online and you will discover how prominent this issue really is. I was surprised! I have grown numerous strains, and this one is the first!


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## Guitar Man (Mar 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Looking gude!


LIKE and thanks! Hey, what happened to the fucking LIKE button?


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## simisimis (Mar 15, 2014)

Guitar Man said:


> Thanks! No offense about your albino theory, but that is not the case. I saw the albino genetic during the early stages of veg when she was sitting under a florescent bulb and only a few inches tall. I also did plenty of research about this issue and this can happen to many other plants besides Cannabis. I have a close relative who works as a professional in the business of large scale crop production and he sees this all of the time in other plant structures when he inspects the fields for any problems.
> 
> Also, this cola is sitting/growing below the other main towers and is much further from the lights. These are only 150 Watt HPS lights, so I am able to keep my plants closer than I would with other high wattage lamps. I also keep accurate records of temps and plant responses from my many other previous grows, and I can safely keep my upper tops 5-6 inches from the lights without any trouble.
> 
> Now, if you were using a 500 watt lamp with poor ventilation, there might be some problems similar to what I'm dealing with, but this cola is healthy and vibrant, and the yellow leaves are keeping the yellow within the bud structure. A very cool thing to see! Look it up online and you will discover how prominent this issue really is. I was surprised! I have grown numerous strains, and this one is the first!


No offence taken man, i believe i was subbed to one of your grows(with the tubes) where you had technical issue and plant roots dried. so i've already seen that you do your studies before taking action  The way i put this was more meant 'hope you're aware'.. i got a friend who had his 3 out of 4 Colas bleached keeping them 2-4 inches from 400w hps even if it was in a cooltube and temps were completely handled. And when i hear there's no such thing as too much light, well...


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## pdd486 (Mar 15, 2014)

How do u get 10 main colas


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## SirGreenThumb (Mar 15, 2014)

By training. It wouldn't technically be true tops, but close enough.


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## Cannabis.Is.Free (Mar 16, 2014)

How much growth do I need to see to do the 4 top method?
I have 2 true nodes since first real leafs (Non sprouts) its up to its 3rd true node should I cut now or wait till 4th true node and cut at 2? want as little downtime as possible


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## ProdigalSun (Mar 17, 2014)

Thanks Ben. 

I was a skeptic, who tried this on an unwanted and unexpected sprout. Figured "What the heck", and grew it. 3.34oz


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## qroox (Mar 17, 2014)

Good evening Tio..!! Things are going hectic here..It's been a while since i've read this thread and man ...it's getting bigger and bigger..with every new ''crop of noobs..'' . Well i'd like to ask 2 things.Would it be possible to make 2 clones instead of 1 ( just cutting the already cut stem in 2,with sufficient foliage for a clone ) .And i was looking for your cloning 101 . I THINK that i had saved it on my phone ( as i've already done with many of your tweaks ) but i can't find it.Was there a cloning 101 that you made in the first place ? Also i've been watching some videos,and there was a guy letting fresh cut clones sit in water for about 24-48hrs to stimulate root growth ? Well i'm about to start cloning some ladies and i'd like to hear your thoughts..!!


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## ProdigalSun (Mar 17, 2014)

You need seeds for this one.


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## EverythingsHazy (Mar 17, 2014)

pdd486 said:


> How do u get 10 main colas


Go for 8 or 16 It's easier since topping evenly makes them double each time starting at 1. Not hitting 5 or 10 lol

Look up "mainlining" 

Those are all true tops.


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## EverythingsHazy (Mar 17, 2014)

Here is a plant that was topped for 4 main colas but also LST'd with wire. An autoflower actually (Think Different)




> *Vegged *under T5 h.O. lights half 6400k half 3000k *
> Flowered* under LED 7-Band "240w" (Feb 1 - Mar 17)*
> Notes:
> *Topped this girl very early.
> ...


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## Guitar Man (Mar 20, 2014)

Buds are getting fat and juicy! This plant has really turned out nice for me! I keep detailed records of all my grows and this one plant is one of my best. The Colas have filled up nicely, with 16-20" of continuous buds on the main 4. There are a total of 8 large Colas, with smaller colas and mucho buds inside. Still have 2 weeks left until chop, chop. She's 7 weeks, today, into flowering.

I've also managed to keep most of the fan leaves nice and green with a balanced nute regime (the HPS lights are what give the pics the look of yellow, but they green).


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 22, 2014)

Looking super nice Gman. Well done!


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## Guitar Man (Mar 22, 2014)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Looking super nice Gman. Well done!


Thanks!!


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## GrowingAllThisLoud (Mar 23, 2014)

Rep+++++. Nice thread!


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## jartlow (Mar 24, 2014)

Hey there I took a leap of faith and went for it. I had some deficiencies early on so please excuse them.

First attempt at topping and cloning. Took the clipping and dipped it into some clonex, then planted it in a new pot. I made a quick dome for it as well to promote more humidity. 

All advice welcome and thanks for the information!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Rollitup mobile app


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## Samcro4 (Mar 24, 2014)

Uncle Ben,

Awesome thread. I've read through about 100 pages looking for an answer to my question but found alot of people asking same questions, and no answer to my question. 

My clones all have alternating nodes. There are no true node pairs. And I also buried a few nodes into the rock wool. My question has two parts: do you count alternate node sites as individual nodes or do you pair two alternates together and count that as a node pair? Also, what about the buried nodes that we bury to create roots? Those are no longer considered a true node, correct? 

Thanks for your time. Are you a professional botanist? Well, you have the knowledge of a professional but is that your career? I've been reading message boards for about 6 months. Reading as much as I can. And you display the most knowledge backed with experienced confidence I've read. Figured you must be a professional.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 25, 2014)

Samcro4 said:


> Uncle Ben,
> 
> Awesome thread. I've read through about 100 pages looking for an answer to my question but found alot of people asking same questions, and no answer to my question.
> 
> ...


Hi and welcome to the thread. You need to lurk and research using the RIU search option. Please do some homework before posting your question. I've discussed the alternating vs opposing issue until I'm blue in the face, especially early on in this thread and took the time to show a topped seedling in the first post that clearly shows opposing phytolaxxy. For my method to work, the nodes must be opposing. You have node pairs, they just happen to be staggered. 

Nodes have cells that are capable of differentiating into root or foliage tissue. If they are underground they'll root first from that point. Reason why I recommend putting at least 2 nodes underground when trying to root a cutting.

I am a commercial grower of a niche crop and vineyard and a hobby gardener of everything you can imagine including avocados, mango, and citrus under glass.

Good luck,
Uncle Ben


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## ProdigalSun (Mar 25, 2014)

OT. Ben, what's the best way to start some cactus seeds? I picked up one of those seed envelopes from the nursery for a dollar, it's a mixed blend.


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## pixils (Mar 25, 2014)

Uncle, its guys like you is why we landedon the moon, I am new to growing ,and I don't understand all the lingo ,but Iwill save this and as I work on my skills I will be doing this cuit and naming the cut th big ben,lol thank you.


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## Samcro4 (Mar 26, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Hi and welcome to the thread. You need to lurk and research using the RIU search option. Please do some homework before posting your question. I've discussed the alternating vs opposing issue until I'm blue in the face, especially early on in this thread and took the time to show a topped seedling in the first post that clearly shows opposing phytolaxxy. For my method to work, the nodes must be opposing. You have node pairs, they just happen to be staggered.
> 
> Nodes have cells that are capable of differentiating into root or foliage tissue. If they are underground they'll root first from that point. Reason why I recommend putting at least 2 nodes underground when trying to root a cutting.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your time. I did notice the opposing nodes in the pic, and I truly have read 100 pages deep into the thread, I guess I was just hoping for some form of workaround. None the less, sorry for making you repeat yourself. 

Ive also read up to about page 103 in your tweaks thread, and the information that you've shared is valuable to me. So even though I did make you repeat yourself, you have made an impact and a difference in a new growers education. I believe that is why you spend the time doing what you do on the forums, so thank you. I don't want you to think I am just shooting questions off w not doing some digging on my own. 

Ive learned alot: 3-1-2 grow. 1-3-2 veg. Nitrogen all the way through. Keeping it green until harvest. Nature doesn't flush, so why should we. (It's not a toilet). K does not promote foliage, too much light can bleach out chlorophyl, 20-4 or 18-6 because plants need to respirate, 6-1-2 would be perfect for foliage Maintanance, you planted some potatoes for you and Aunt Benita back in 2010, and most importantly - - Grow for the most amount of foliage you can going into the flowering response. Maintain those leaves in a green and healthy condition up until harvest, even if it means switching fertilizer to a high N value, like a 9-3-6.

and so forth...I just don't want to come off as a guy who didn't want to do some leg work on his own. 

That said, I appreciate the "no bs" approach. And I like that basic understanding and common sense is more of a factor than expensive chemistry with a fancy label. Pretty surprised the mj community has not self regulated and put more of these myths and companies out of business.


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## simisimis (Mar 27, 2014)

Samcro4 said:


> Ive learned alot: 3-1-2 grow. 1-3-2 veg.


Grow and veg is the same. I don't remember UB recommending flowering with 1-3-2.. more like saying 3-1-2(3-1-4) all the way..



> That said, I appreciate the "no bs" approach. And I like that basic understanding and common sense is more of a factor than expensive chemistry with a fancy label. Pretty surprised the mj community has not self regulated and put more of these myths and companies out of business.


Community is the reason those companies exist. It's too difficult for them to reeducate, therefore they just suggest for what people looking for.. people go to store and see bloom food and they think if companies are making it, it must be needed... Some sort of loop here...
Also i think that post and reputation counting system on forum a bit messes things up. People do not want newbie status, they start recommending things. Good intentions, just wrong info :/

Congrats on not falling for every lie you come accross here


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## Samcro4 (Mar 27, 2014)

simisimis said:


> Grow and veg is the same. I don't remember UB recommending flowering with 1-3-2.. more like saying 3-1-2(3-1-4) all the way..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i mislabeled. Meant 3-1-2 grow 1-3-2 FLOWER (not veg). But thanks for pointing that out. But it's possible wrote this down wrong in my notes. I'll re-read, and check on 3-1-4 all the way. Not disagreeing with you, just saying I will do the research on the thread to double check myself. 

And yeah, what company isn't trying to make money? So if that's what is selling, and there is still a demand, then I guess the cycle continues. I guess what surprises me more - but shouldn't - is how the hydro stores push those products. As a noob, I relied alot on the recommendations from my local "pros" at those stores about m setup. At the same time, I did a ton of research and wound up going w the systems I thought suited my space and what I wanted out of it best. Same thing when buying a car, tv, etc....they can give you some good info but you can't blindly believe they have your best interests in mind. 

I've been given alot of advice similar to - "you HAVE to buy such and such bloom booster, because it literally doubles my bud production." But I've read the label on some of these so called bloom boosters and some of them have similar macros to the AN 3 part flora bloom I am using, just 1% more nitrogen. (Just using one case as an example). So why would I go out and spend almost 200 dollars on a bottle of that stuff, when I can adjust macros on my own? 

Im glad I got the 3 part to begin with. I can tweak my macros to try to meet UBs recommendation with it. Depending on the success I have with it, I might just completely switch to dyna gro. Can't beat those prices. And alot of the "no bs" vets as I like to call you guys recommend dyna gro or jacks, or peters.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 27, 2014)

Samcro4 said:


> I guess what surprises me more - but shouldn't - is how the hydro stores push those products. As a noob, I relied alot on the recommendations from my local "pros" at those stores about m setup.


Most of the hydro guys know little to nothing about botany, they are salesmen. You're looking for love in all the wrong places.  As you have seen I march to a different drummer.

Learn common sense botany, plant culture, then you'll empower yourself to make the right decisions, the correct purchases.


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## simisimis (Mar 27, 2014)

Well in tweaks and pointers thread UB says do not use bloom food, that is high P food, that is 1-3-2.. dunno about hydro, but soil/soilless does not have P issues other than being locked out.. maybe some exceptional situations i never heard of..

In those threads there were some mail pasted from companies like dynagro saying that they have bloom food cause it's easier to make it rather than reeducate them saying that they do not need it..
I definitely don't, grow food, CaMg supplement and some potassium silicate goes all the way through.. if plant starts misbehaving, i leech the soil, feed again and watch it grow
People should read couple of worthy books and only then go to forums. Then they could see who's talking what. But in this "quick user guide" and "grow cannabis in sixty days" era is not really likely that it is going to happen. Instead of trying to actually understand what we are doing we decide better to chose some side and let that somebody to understand and tell us directions...
Like for example UB topping technique has 500pages... Really???


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## Samcro4 (Mar 27, 2014)

Just looked up exact NPK values on the AN Overdrive that was highly recommended. A couple friends who grow swear it doubles their bud production. Say it's dumb to go without it and definitly spend the money. That this stuff literally doubles production. The NPK value is 1-5-4. AN bloom from the 3 part is 0-5-4. So guys are paying 40 dollars a liter for nothing but some fancy words, 1 part nitrogen, and become victims of the placebo effect. It almost 3.5 times the cost for pretty much the same thing. So Advanced Nutrients is charging 3x the cost on a product they basically added nothing to. 

I'm very thankful I found you guys when I did. After looking at the ingredients on all of these bloom boosters, bud enhancers, and so forth w the fancy names, it's hard to believe that anybody with even a small amount of experience would fall for this.


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## kpass3490 (Mar 27, 2014)

Ok guys I read a lot of this page and I'm not trying to piss anybody off with asking repetitive questions, but I have a hard time telling exactly what's going on in a lot of the pictures cuz they're mostly just closeups of the cut and then what happened afterwards. I'm not exactly sure if every spot a branch comes off the main stem is a node or if just the spots where they group together are nodes. So I'm not exactly sure where to cut or if it's too late, my plant has pistils already so wasn't sure and also didn't know if the nodes were too spaced out. Thanks for the help guys.


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## Guitar Man (Mar 27, 2014)

kpass3490 said:


> Ok guys I read a lot of this page and I'm not trying to piss anybody off with asking repetitive questions, but I have a hard time telling exactly what's going on in a lot of the pictures cuz they're mostly just closeups of the cut and then what happened afterwards. I'm not exactly sure if every spot a branch comes off the main stem is a node or if just the spots where they group together are nodes. So I'm not exactly sure where to cut or if it's too late, my plant has pistils already so wasn't sure and also didn't know if the nodes were too spaced out. Thanks for the help guys.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 3036218View attachment 3036219



Kpass, go get your trimmers and cut that baby right at the second node, counting from the top down (4 nodes, if you're counting from the bottom up). As UB says, easy cheesy.


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## kpass3490 (Mar 27, 2014)

Wow just realized I posted the wrong plant. That's Berry Ryder which is one of my autos. I meant to put up Berry Bomb, my photo that I want to top and that has no pistils here it is. You count from the top down? I thought you counted from the bottom up cuz they say the node where the cottyledon attach doesn't count and the one above is the first true node.


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## mmjmon (Mar 27, 2014)

Guitar Man said:


> Kpass, go get your trimmers and cut that baby right at the second node, counting from the top down (4 nodes, if you're counting from the bottom up). As UB says, easy cheesy.


whoa....Am I reading it wrong or did you put it down wrong? Cut above the 2nd true node from the bottom for 4 tops... Cut above the 1st true node for 2 tops...
Easy Cheesy


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## mmjmon (Mar 27, 2014)

kpass3490 said:


> Wow just realized I posted the wrong plant. That's Berry Ryder which is one of my autos. I meant to put up Berry Bomb, my photo that I want to top and that has no pistils here it is. You count from the top down? I thought you counted from the bottom up cuz they say the node where the cottyledon attach doesn't count and the one above is the first true node.
> 
> View attachment 3036621View attachment 3036622View attachment 3036623




I don't have the best eyesight, but your first node looks to be single leaves, and your second looks to be the opposing 3 leaf set above it. I personally would cut it a tad above that node although it looks a little tight. That tight area will just produce more roots after you clean those bottom leaves of the cut top and clone.

As for it being in flower, I don't see it, but like I said, I don't have the best eyesight. You wouldn't normally use UB's method for a flowering plant. It should've already been done and let veg out a bit before flowering. I personally, if it were my plant, would just do it and keep her under the light and hope she does well.

That being said, you could wait til the next run to try it.

Anyone else with some thoughts?


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## simisimis (Mar 28, 2014)

IMO 3 and 4th node tops look beautiful, way more developed, i would just top above 4th node and trim shoots(not leaves) from bottom two nodes.
Or even do what i recently did here
https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/738723-150w-cmh-sativa-garden-12.html#post10281491

Maaanyy ways to skin a cat 

EDIT: just realised i was talking when looking at the wrong posted pic u placed before  i'd pic 2nd and 3rd node and trim/top the rest


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## Wait, what? (Apr 7, 2014)

Top is the taller, bottom the shorter, at 7 weeks. Special Kush #1 chopped above second node at 4 weeks and 12 and 12 at 5 weeks

Nice colas developing


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## Wait, what? (Apr 7, 2014)

I never would have considered doing something like that to my plants before I read this thread, now I'm happy I did. They're doing great

The tall plant's nodes are tied down for an even canopy BTW


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## Wait, what? (Apr 14, 2014)

7 days later, the colas are four times the size they were in those pics. With 5-6 weeks to go, I hope for 65 grams a plant. That's the low end estimate for this strain


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## Wait, what? (Apr 14, 2014)




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## mmjmon (Apr 14, 2014)

Wait said:


> [



Right on... Love the back light photo.


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## Wait, what? (Apr 14, 2014)

It's usually very bright in there, but I had to turn the overheads off or my friend's camera wouldn't work. I had a nute burn and lost some leaves, but she's doing fine now

Low odor strain. Haven't had to turn on the carbon scrubber yet


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## kpass3490 (Apr 15, 2014)

So I haven't been able to come on much lately but I posted here a little while back. Sad to say I didn't really get to do this method due to an accident, a spray bottle fell off my shelf over my plants and broke the top off the plant I had considered topping with this method. I'm sure I still could have done this method since I would have been cutting below that anyway but I think my plant was already too far along. It's been at 18/6 for a long time now cuz I accidentally put it in with all autos and am just keeping it vegging until the autos finish out so it might end up pretty large. As you can see it's turned into a straight bush which I kind of like but idk what kind of colas I'm gonna get out of that.


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## kpass3490 (Apr 15, 2014)

Where I circled is where it got broken, around what node does it look like it happened to you guys? These pictures are just a couple days after it happened and the previous are a couple weeks.


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## mmjmon (Apr 15, 2014)

kpass3490 said:


> Where I circled is where it got broken, around what node does it look like it happened to you guys?


Looks like 7 possibly 8 true nodes there. She mended nicely.


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## kpass3490 (Apr 15, 2014)

Yeah came back nicely and looks real healthy just wondering if I'm gonna end up with a bunch of small bud sites or actually get some nice colas. Think I should do anything else with it?


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## mmjmon (Apr 15, 2014)

kpass3490 said:


> Think I should do anything else with it?



Looks good. Just keep her healthy.


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## kpass3490 (Apr 15, 2014)

Thanks for the help man, will do


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## elkukupanda (Apr 20, 2014)

Hey UB,

I finally have the answer to that question you once asked me. "What makes a plant thick". Well the answer is very easy. "To have all it needs, all the time". I actually came to this realization not even by growing this trade, but another plant. A tropical tree, with great house indoor compatibility as the, Pachira Aquatica, and how it reacts to dry air when humidity is controlled by a well made exhaust system.

Best Regards,
Your Pal,
ElKukuPanda


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 20, 2014)

Happy to hear about your revelation. The plant kingdom never ceases to amaze!


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## Mt Doo (May 10, 2014)

More photos and discussion on this method come on people

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Rollitup mobile app


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## vipvip93 (May 11, 2014)

I read about and so have tried this technique recently. thing is i made an error with regards to the nodes. the second true node. ( am fully aware of the node numbering now after more reading, research ect) However MY QUESTION is if you top at the third true node (after reaching 6) so you have 4 strong and the first 2 small weak. Then cut the first weak set off at the bottom does this have the exact same effect as it would have done if I had just cut it at the second node in the first place. 

big respect UB answering questions on this since 2009


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## LBH (May 12, 2014)

This is the tutorial that was on "another site" for 4 or 5 yrs, had over 1/2 a million hits. All the cool kids are doin' it,lol https://www.rollitup.org/t/lbhs-4-way-lst-tutorial-w-topping-sub-tutorial.438784/


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## Uncle Ben (May 16, 2014)

While perusing my photos, found these, outdoor grown. Notice how deep that plant is set? Second photo shows the super intense, fibrous root system after the soil was washed away.


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## Notmikeh (May 16, 2014)

Hi guys I'm new to this and was curious when you should retop/FIM your plant? I have a scrog grow and topped it once I was wondering if I should bother


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## Uncle Ben (May 16, 2014)

Notmikeh said:


> Hi guys I'm new to this and was curious when you should retop/FIM your plant? I have a scrog grow and topped it once I was wondering if I should bother


You also must be new to posting. Proper protocol, AFTER lurking and doing some homework using the Search feature is to start a new thread.

Good luck


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## Notmikeh (May 16, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> You also must be new to posting. Proper protocol, AFTER lurking and doing some homework using the Search feature is to start a new thread.
> 
> Good luck


Haha. I've been lurking and reading. I've been googling my butt off. Please help me. I read your posts and know how to fim and top and what the differences are. I'm looking for some clarification on doing it twice. At what point do I retop or refim?

All right I think I found my answer. Never mind. I did look before asking though. Lol


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## csenoner (May 20, 2014)

Uncle Ben,

Amazing thread. I stumbled upon it years ago and I'm amazed to see it active still. I have read through a couple hundred pages and have found tons of answers but there are a couple things I am still not clear on. I apologize if it's been covered but I missed the points.

-If a grower is looking to cut veg time by increasing plant numbers, lets say 16 plants per 600w light, do you think the grower would see better yields using the topping for 2 colas, 4 colas or perhaps just letting it go natural and trying to limit the plant to one main cola? It seems most people here are using lower plant numbers. 

I was imagining possibly a set up with 2 colas per plant , meaning 32 colas per 600w. obviously each plant will be smaller, but by cutting down veg time I think I can get 1 more grow out per year and I have limited space, so I can't veg for longer in another room.

-Also, I have read the FAQ and frequent questions about clones with alternating nodes. I see that you have stated that if you give these clones a long light cycle they will revert back to opposing nodes. Any idea of how long that would take? Do they always revert to opposing nodes? And if you do top a plant with alternating nodes, I understand that you will not necessarily get the uniform 4 colas, but what will the effect be? A generally bushy plant? More colas but an unpredictable number of them? 

-In a garden with 16 plants per 600w , in the case that the clone has alternating nodes or perhaps it would take too long to revert to opposing, would you think I would be best: a) letting the plant grow naturally with no topping, b) still topping above the 1st or 2nd node and hoping for the best, 2 - 4 colas c) topping higher up the plant below the newest node, essentially just making the plant into a big bush with no true cola.

-I also see that you and others here are against removing leaves that obviously collect the light to drive plant growth. But when you say that you don't like to remove foliage, are you saying that you would not prune any growth shoots from the lower third of the plant? 

I have been thinking of using either your method or pistilwhipt's topping method but I am not sure what would be best considering my high plant numbers and the fact I am using clones. pistilwhipt reccomend something similar to you but slightly different. He says to let it grow to 7 nodes, prune bottom 3 nodes, top below upper node or second from the top, which leaves you with 2-3 pairs (yet a longer stem below those pairs). Another difference being that he also reccomends that before the 2nd week of flower, trip all lower growth shoots that are too close to the main stem or will not receive enough light to produce dense nug. I know you disagree with the idea of redistributing 'energy' etc, but perhaps it has benefits of at least promoting airflow and therefore reducing mold risk.

I appreciate the clarification. Sorry for the longwinded post. It's obvious that this thread has helped tons of gardeners and I plan on giving it a try myself. I typically haven't topped at all and go for higher plant numbers and 1 single cola - more of a SOG approach.

Thanks again for a great discussion and for introducing your topping method and taking the time to help out growers looking to increase yields. I will report back with pics to show the effects on smaller plants with high numbers.




-


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## Hxcplayer (May 20, 2014)

Hey guys, i can't see the pictures of this thread. Shows an image icon with an X on its right. Is it just me or is anyone else having the same problem?


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## Uncle Ben (May 20, 2014)

Howdy, gonna make this cryptic as I've answered these questions before.



csenoner said:


> If a grower is looking to cut veg time by increasing plant numbers,


Numbers has no bearing on the veg time YOU choose.



> lets say 16 plants per 600w light, do you think the grower would see better yields using the topping for 2 colas, 4 colas or perhaps just letting it go natural and trying to limit the plant to one main cola? It seems most people here are using lower plant numbers.


Don't know. You'll just have to try it and see.



> - Also, I have read the FAQ and frequent questions about clones with alternating nodes. I see that you have stated that if you give these clones a long light cycle they will revert back to opposing nodes. Any idea of how long that would take? Do they always revert to opposing nodes?


It's been too long since I played those games, like over 10 years. Don't remember. If you want to try reveg, go to a photoperiod of 20/4, hit them with a high N food to push foliage and watch. What I do remember is the plants reverted back and followed the typical stage of growth of a juvenile plant starting with 3 leaf leafsets so I can assume they also have opposing nodes. 



> And if you do top a plant with alternating nodes, I understand that you will not necessarily get the uniform 4 colas, but what will the effect be? A generally bushy plant?


Yes. You need to understand this plant's structure and then the answer will be transparent.



> -In a garden with 16 plants per 600w , in the case that the clone has alternating nodes or perhaps it would take too long to revert to opposing, would you think I would be best: a) letting the plant grow naturally with no topping, b) still topping above the 1st or 2nd node and hoping for the best, 2 - 4 colas c) topping higher up the plant below the newest node, essentially just making the plant into a big bush with no true cola.


Based on the responses of no topping versus topping, what do you want to end up with? I can't make that call, it's your choice.



> -I also see that you and others here are against removing leaves that obviously collect the light to drive plant growth. But when you say that you don't like to remove foliage, are you saying that you would not prune any growth shoots from the lower third of the plant?


Correct.



> I have been thinking of using either your method or pistilwhipt's topping method but I am not sure what would be best considering my high plant numbers and the fact I am using clones. pistilwhipt reccomend something similar to you but slightly different. He says to let it grow to 7 nodes, prune bottom 3 nodes, top below upper node or second from the top, which leaves you with 2-3 pairs (yet a longer stem below those pairs). Another difference being that he also reccomends that before the 2nd week of flower, trip all lower growth shoots that are too close to the main stem or will not receive enough light to produce dense nug. I know you disagree with the idea of redistributing 'energy' etc, but perhaps it has benefits of at least promoting airflow and therefore reducing mold risk.
> -


Once you decide that you're thoroughly confused with all the complicated BS everyone says you should do "because it works for me", do what you want based on a solid botanical concepts.

Good luck,
UB


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## a senile fungus (May 20, 2014)

^^this^^ 

Also realize that its your garden and you can do whatever you want, with or without approval from those on this board.

I could train my plants to grow in shapes like the letters of my name if I wanted to. Is that a "solid botanical practice"?, no. But, it works for me...

Basically its a plant. It'll grow if you provide for its basic needs, or as UB says, know what makes it tick. After that, it up to you what you decide to do with your garden...

Don't let anyone tell you what to do, use info on this site as a general guide, not an exact blueprint.

Once you've got a basic understanding of how to grow, then try different techniques, mix em up and see what happens, come up with your own innovative ideas and see how it stacks up against conventional wisdoms... But remember, at the basic level its still a plant like many others...

Good luck to you!


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## chuck estevez (May 20, 2014)

All good advise, I still like the " Keep it simple stoner" approach. Less is more is what I have found to be the best.


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## Uncle Ben (May 20, 2014)

Yep, I'm a simple man and that's the way I grow, using the KISS method. 

Everyone does their own thing based on their comfort zone, lifestyle, goals, etc. but once you dial in your program you need to stick with it and tweek it. Too many noobs jump from one thing to another "cause it works" and they saw another guy doing "it" on some cannabis grow forum. "I started in soil but now I do dro!"


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## a senile fungus (May 20, 2014)

I think once you dial in a system is the perfect time to switch it up. Learn how all the different systems work and pull the best from each into your own unique system.

That's how I do it, I take advice from everybody and make my own thing.



Here's an example of something that I put together with bits and pieces from cfl forums, hydro forums, micro/cab forums, and vertical lighting... Obviously a custom made system made for my space and need requirement


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## Uncle Ben (May 20, 2014)

That would be too complicated for me but it's not my garden. If it's working for you and you're having fun, then git er done!


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## a senile fungus (May 20, 2014)

Its all automated... I just sit back and watch really... Gotta love it. Hope you all have a wonderful day!


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## csenoner (May 20, 2014)

Thanks for the replies guys. Sorry if u ended up covering things you ahve already covered. I have been picking through the thread and might have missed a few things.

I am sure you have discussed this before so I am not going to push you to explain. But I was under the impression that based on amount of pure foliage, 1 small plant would not yield as much bud as say 16 small plants under the same veg time and same growing conditions. Perhaps I am wrong about that.

I thought that the single plant could yield as much as the 16 plants if it is vegged longer and allowed to build up enough foliage to match the 16 small pants.

If you guys are saying that yield is dependent on foliage and therefore its good to veg after topping and also its good not to strip away lower foliage, then wouldnt also mean more plants =more foliage=more bud (given equal veg time)?

Perhaps the idea is the single plant would receive so much light that if properly fed and cared for it would soon produce enough foliage rapidly that it would catch up to and could equal the yield of the 16 plants.

I know that I recently took some advice to grow 25 plants per 600w and I yielded less that I used to Srogging 4 plants. I guess the only way to really know is to do controlled A/B testing.
Based on the responses of no topping versus topping, what do you want to end up with? I can't make that call, it's your choice.


Really I am just looking for maximum yield. Another reason I am interested in this method is that big colas are easier to trip than lots of small buds and therefore by increasing the number of colas I am hoping to speed up the trim job. So creating more big buds and less hard to trip bud.



"""Once you decide that you're thoroughly confused with all the complicated BS everyone says you should do "because it works for me", do what you want based on a solid botanical concepts.

Good luck,
UB"""

I already have reached that point! The fact is everyne has their own methods work and many of them work. marijuana grows if healthy and given enough light. thats for sure. I took some advice from some 'experts' who advised me to go with 25 plants per 600w, and using a super complicated canna coco feeding schedule that caused tempermental ph swings, and somehow my ladies turned into hermies. When i grew 4 plants per light in soil with flora nova bloom I saw better results. every step along the way they told me my way was wrong and to trust them as they are pros. in the end, my yield suffered my bud was not great, i had hermies, and the most disappointing crop I've ever had. from that point I decided to have no one else to blame to do the research, test and take notes and measure results objectively and find out what works best for me.

all the 'pros' wanna tell you that you are wrong, but when u are producing high yields of premo shit how can they deny those results. people often trash what is different than what they know but many things have been proven to work.

I am interested to do some a/b tests and then measure yields and figure it out myself.

i think producing healthy plants with enoug light and with good genetics drives yields. all the rest is just tinkering. but im at the point where i would like to keep tinkering until i max out my yields.


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## csenoner (May 20, 2014)

csenoner said:


> Thanks for the replies guys. Sorry if u ended up covering things you ahve already covered. I have been picking through the thread and might have missed a few things.


i guess i havent figured out this quoting thing ahhahal


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## a senile fungus (May 20, 2014)

csenoner said:


> i guess i havent figured out this quoting thing ahhahal


It sounds like you'd be better off with vegging a couple plants to medium size and then flowering them...

If that's what you're more comfortable with and what you have experience with then do it!

Good luck!


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## csenoner (May 20, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> It sounds like you'd be better off with vegging a couple plants to medium size and then flowering them...
> 
> If that's what you're more comfortable with and what you have experience with then do it!
> 
> Good luck!


yeah might be a good idea. i am trying to run a set up that is as low maintenance as possible with drippers in coco using H3ad's modified lucas method. Looking for simplicity and stability and low maintenance. il post pics when im set up.


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## lukedog (May 20, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> That would be too complicated for me but it's not my garden. If it's working for you and you're having fun, then git er done!


Uncle Ben, Could you post how much alfalfa you use in your grow mixture. If I am wrong please disregard


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## SpaaaceCowboy (May 21, 2014)

DaveTheNewbie said:


> Im a big fan of topping for 4 colas, but i double top, aka top then top those 2 branches at the next node.
> 
> Here are my results :


Hey guys didn't want to read through 200+ pages...What's the deal with doing a "double top" like this ? Is it worthwhile ? Or is it better to stick with the original top job to produce 4 colas ? 

thnx, SC


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## Mt Doo (May 21, 2014)

SpaaaceCowboy said:


> Hey guys didn't want to read through 200+ pages...What's the deal with doing a "double top" like this ? Is it worthwhile ? Or is it better to stick with the original top job to produce 4 colas ?
> 
> thnx, SC


From what I have seen it's personal preference. The whole point of topping for 4 is to have a better even canopy of you top those 4 tops you will have a bushy plant with less predictable growth on the secondary tops. I think 4 main colas with a few side colas are the way to go. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Rollitup mobile app


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## Uncle Ben (May 21, 2014)

csenoner said:


> """Once you decide that you're thoroughly confused with all the complicated BS everyone says you should do "because it works for me", do what you want based on a solid botanical concepts.
> 
> Good luck,
> UB"""
> ...


I rest my case.  IMO cannabis forums are the worst places to learn normal, solid botanical gardening methods of any place you could go for help. For a newbie this place can be a disaster due to the myths, ill founded paradigms, the herd mentality. Popular is usually NOT right.

Indoors I do bushes that finish out over 36" tall. "SOB". I can get up to 10 oz per plant with far less maintenance that 20. It's a no brainer for me. Being simple, I start with simple stuff like good potting soil, tap water, non-cannabis specific foods, etc. There, that's "simplicity and stability and low maintenance".

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (May 21, 2014)

Alfalfa - in a 30 gallon mix, about 4 cups of alfalfa cubes aka horse cubes or nuggets. Let them soak until they dissolve then use the slurry to moisten your soil.


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## Samcro4 (May 22, 2014)

Alright Uncle Ben,

Have been lurking and working for a while now. Learned alot from guys like yourself and home brewer. I am in week 5 of flower and doing pretty well in my opinion for it being my first time. I Let the clones grow without topping, lst, or any other form of training to keep it simple. Using dyna gro and aiming for 1-3-2 the whole way through flower and focusin on keepin m foliage healthy. I've found that I have 2 different phenos. 1 is shorter, thicker, and producing some thick, tight and massive buds. After 6 weeks of veg, they wound up about 30 inches after stretch in he first 2 weeks of 12/12. I thought they would suck compared to the other pheno that is leggier, and this leggier pheno stretched to around 40 inches. The problem w these ones is the spacing between nodes once they hit stretch. They spaced a little too far for my liking and unless they start stacking calyxes through the remainder of flower, I don't see them becoming thick dense buds. Really, the jury will be out until harvest for final results. But temp, humidity, and feeding schedule have been constant. 

The clones I took are doing way better than the clones givin to me originally. They are about 13 days into 18/6 and kicking butt. I want to top the taller leggy pheno. Sensi Star is what they are, and they are 80/20 indica. 

I've read so much information from so many different posters, and I like the fundamental approach you and HB take so while I'm still figuring out what works for me, I'm following the basics you've laid out. 

I have one simple question, and I know that I have to find what works for me. But my question is, in your experience, at what node do you like to top your clones have alternating nodes. I am asking you this because I respect your opinion. I know you like people to find out what works best for them. But in the meantime, I'd like to continue taking the advice of guys like yourself and HB. So in your experience, at what node have you found gives you the best results to top on a clone. I know this will not produce the 2 or 4 main colas. I just want to make the most efficient cut and keep the leggier pheno more compact. 

I know this question probably annoys you, but please help a brother out and share that bit of wisdom. You can tell me to go fly a kite after, just as long as you tell me what's worked best for you in topping clones. I'm trying to follow your play book, keep it simple, and start w the fundamentals, so I hope you can at least respect that. 

Thanks


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## Uncle Ben (May 23, 2014)

I don't do clones, only seeds, sorry.

Any time you top the plant becomes more bushy - your call.


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## Samcro4 (May 23, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> I don't do clones, only seeds, sorry.
> 
> Any time you top the plant becomes more bushy - your call.


Well, thanks for the reply regardless. I will give it a shot on a few and see how it goes this time around. I'm going to top above the 2nd node and see if I can get multiple leaders.


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## bigworm6969 (May 23, 2014)

just wanted to say keep up the good work uncle ben


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## papajohn (May 24, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Alfalfa - in a 30 gallon mix, about 4 cups of alfalfa cubes aka horse cubes or nuggets. Let them soak until they dissolve then use the slurry to moisten your soil.


how much handful on the ammonium sulfate for 30 gal of soil


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## Uncle Ben (May 24, 2014)

papajohn said:


> how much handful on the ammonium sulfate for 30 gal of soil


I don't add that to my soil. Use blood meal, like a cup per 30 gals.


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## jbird74 (May 25, 2014)

I have combed through this thread and google as well. I think I have the right idea but for absolute assurance I am posting this pic. By the way thank you for sharing your treasure trove of knowledge UB. In the pic I have a red arrow pointing to what I believe is just above the 2nd true node. Am I correct? If not which is it then. Thank you and my apologies if I overlooked a plain illustration such as this one that had already been posted.


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## BenFranklin (May 25, 2014)

I don't much like Uncle Ben, personality clash or what not, that's not his fault and that doesn't make him a bad person.... 

However, if I ever had a question about growing, I'd ask him before I'd ask anyone.


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## Uncle Ben (May 25, 2014)

jbird74 said:


> I have combed through this thread and google as well. I think I have the right idea but for absolute assurance I am posting this pic. By the way thank you for sharing your treasure trove of knowledge UB. In the pic I have a red arrow pointing to what I believe is just above the 2nd true node. Am I correct? If not which is it then. Thank you and my apologies if I overlooked a plain illustration such as this one that had already been posted.


Looks to be the third node. Looks like the photos on page one are history.


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## jbird74 (May 25, 2014)

Yes indeed they appear to be history. So if that's the third node am I correct in seeing a total of 5 nodes? If so I will proceed to top just above the 2nd node for the 4 colas . Here's one more pic of where the arrow is pointing to where I think I am suppose to top for the 4 main colas. Thank you kindly for the input UB.


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## Uncle Ben (May 26, 2014)

jbird74 said:


> Yes indeed they appear to be history. So if that's the third node am I correct in seeing a total of 5 nodes? If so I will proceed to top just above the 2nd node for the 4 colas . Here's one more pic of where the arrow is pointing to where I think I am suppose to top for the 4 main colas. Thank you kindly for the input UB.


Looks like the 2nd node to me. 

Would someone send a PM to potroast and request those pix be put back up?


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## Nizza (May 26, 2014)

hey ben the pictures on the first page don't show up!


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## Sativied (May 26, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Would someone send a PM to potroast and request those pix be put back up?


I would if I would think it would make any difference. The thing is, this forum software doesn't come with Albums software by default, hence the albums were not imported after the recent incident and following migration to this new forum software. I and others have requested the admin to add the Albums add-on for this forum and somehow get the old image imported. See and post here, maybe coming from you it'll help motivate potroast a bit: https://www.rollitup.org/t/new-and-updated-rollitup.822552/page-29#post-10510085 

6 weeks ago:


admin said:


> Ok so we have an update on the User albums, The new software is installed however we have to build out the importer which is going to take us a bit. your albums are safe its just going to take us a bit to convert all the data.


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## SuckMyFreedom (May 26, 2014)

Guys why are the pictures on the first page not showing up? I've seen those image placeholders on several other threads also. What's up with that? I really want to see Uncle Ben's pictures for this very important process. Is there anyway someone can fix this? Ben?


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## jbird74 (May 26, 2014)

See the post directly above yours SMF


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## SuckMyFreedom (May 26, 2014)

jbird74 said:


> See the post directly above yours SMF


Oops. Thank you. I've read the first 10 or so pages of this thread, but not the most recent (obviously).


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## SpaaaceCowboy (May 27, 2014)

hey guys I want to top my plants...they've been vegged for about 2 weeks. and have about 5 nodes or so....

The only thing is the leaves on the first node are yellow...I am thinking maybe cause they would sit in the water puddle from when I watered the plants ? Medium is pro-mix hp, EWC, perlite, and dolomite lime.... It's either that or a Nitrogen deficiency I am thinking...

Anyways will I be ok still topping above the second node ? Or should I top above the third node cause the first node could be garbage with those yellow leaves ?

the last two pics show that each node has a top and bottom branch coming off each side....so maybe I have enough branches here to spare ?


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## Uncle Ben (May 27, 2014)

Those seedlings are seriously stunted and yellow. They need N. What are you feeding them with? Don't top until you get normal growth and vigor.

*Here's one of my crosses topped above the 2nd true node. The result is 2 main colas:*



*Here is another cross, a C99XDalat topped above the 2nd node and showing what will be 4 main colas:*




*And a week later showing the structure of the previous topped plant with the 4 new trunks developing nicely:*

* *


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## SpaaaceCowboy (May 27, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Those seedlings are seriously stunted and yellow. They need N. What are you feeding them with? Don't top until you get normal growth and vigor.
> 
> *Here's one of my crosses topped above the 2nd true node. The result is 2 main colas:*
> 
> ...


UB, even though they are in air-pots I think they began to turn root bound.....I have since transplanted to larger pots....Also temps are a little high...Mid 80s....

Other than the soil I have fed them nothing...I use Jack's Classic All Purpose 20-20-20...I just watered them...Was thinking of giving the 20-20-20 to them in a light dose.

That first pic you have listed looks like only one node to me...Looks like there is the cotlydon (sp?) then the one node....

The second pic to me looks like you cut it above the 2nd node for the four colas which I am seeing...That is what I am going after.

Oh ya, I also use Floralicious Plus...But I am not sure if that's good for vegging....I have only used it once so far...That was during flowering, and it seems to have worked fantastic.


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## youknowthekid! (May 27, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> I think once you dial in a system is the perfect time to switch it up. Learn how all the different systems work and pull the best from each into your own unique system.
> 
> That's how I do it, I take advice from everybody and make my own thing.
> 
> Here's an example of something that I put together with bits and pieces from cfl forums, hydro forums, micro/cab forums, and vertical lighting... Obviously a custom made system made for my space and need requirement


that custom is fucking hilarious lol. made my collection of riu stolen pics 

and ya, despite what UB says trying numerous things is cool, that's why I like following duudicals journal for example. I don't think you've fully enjoyed growing until you've done a great soil run, and a great dwc run and experienced all the setbacks that come with both


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## Uncle Ben (May 28, 2014)

SpaaaceCowboy said:


> UB, even though they are in air-pots I think they began to turn root bound.....I have since transplanted to larger pots....Also temps are a little high...Mid 80s...


What did the rootball look like?

Mid 80's is perfect.

Give them a high N food like a 30-10-10 with micros.


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## SpaaaceCowboy (May 28, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> What did the rootball look like?
> 
> Mid 80's is perfect.
> 
> Give them a high N food like a 30-10-10 with micros.


the roots looked to be circling the air-pot kinda....Like they really weren't poking out the holes....I should have taken a pic....But on the bottom of the pot where there are holes some roots were popping out but there were two little square molds where the roots conglomerated. If that makes any sense...I have 6 outdoor ;plants I am putting in the air-pot propaganda pots shortly...If it happens again I'll take some pics.

thanks for the advice...Maybe I'll head over to the local hydro store, and see what they have for 30-10-10...I didn't even know that 30-10-10 existed, but obviously with such a higher N ratio it seems like it would be perfect for N deficiencies....


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## ayr0n (May 29, 2014)

Ahh! the OP photos are gone, and I'm too slow to understand what (err where?) you mean by the 2nd "true" node? A guy on page 161 said it took him 6 hours to read the whole thread...it's on page 271 now. I really don't think I could do a 9 hour read right now...Ran some searches on the thread but didn't have any luck finding a photo showing the spot to cut prior to actually being cut.


Uncle Ben said:


> Those seedlings are seriously stunted and yellow. They need N. What are you feeding them with? Don't top until you get normal growth and vigor.
> 
> *Here's one of my crosses topped above the 2nd true node. The result is 2 main colas:*
> 
> View attachment 3163528


This looks like it's been cut right below what I believe to be the 3rd node, basically removing the 3rd set of leaves (not counting the seedling ones) ? So basically amputate the main stem right below where the 3rd set of leaves branch out? Sorry if I'm appearing to be a dumbass - I've been reading all day for the past several days n my brain just doesn't want to (or can't) let me learn anything else atm.

Edit: Okay I lied...figured it out. Was just over-thinking it I suppose...Very simple, yet effective, concept. Guess this brain had a little more room left for today.


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## youknowthekid! (May 29, 2014)

top all you kids want. I would honestly fim any plant just one time because with everything else dialed in that'll give you a nice even, dense canopy. otherwise I would just SoG with no training- but who the hell wants to work with 16 plants lol

give me 1-4, fim them and watch them explode into a nice scrog, or tie-down set up for max yield


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## ayr0n (May 29, 2014)

youknowthekid! said:


> *top all you kids want*. I would honestly fim any plant just one time because with everything else dialed in that'll give you a nice even, dense canopy. otherwise I would just SoG with no training- but who the hell wants to work with 16 plants lol
> 
> give me 1-4, fim them and watch them explode into a nice scrog, or tie-down set up for max yield


Hollllldup...I thought You were the kid? You know...the kid..?


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## Know One (Jun 1, 2014)

Specifically after reading this awhile back I was looking forward to trying my hand.
First image below is from 4-16 when she was first topped. 
Below that is more recent 5-30.
Thanks to UB for the great info.
Super Snow Lotus .
SSL on 4-16





same plant at about 1' tall. I love how she is looking.


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## Mocomovaca (Jun 1, 2014)

Uncle Ben-

First post on RIU, but had to take the time to personally thank you. I've been a silent student learning from the fringes. You haven't touched my plant, watered or fed it, yet you have helped me reach a new threshold of grower ability.
Your willingness to teach and inform despite the dumb questions coming from all over the classroom is inspirational.
Your patience, beyond admirable.

   Here is my HashPlant topped for 4 mains   @ 50 days following flip. 10 more til chop I expect. I've never come close to having half oz colas, objectively, these might have a chance.
Cheers and thanks again UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 1, 2014)

Mocomovaca said:


> View attachment 3168043 View attachment 3168044 View attachment 3168045 View attachment 3168046 View attachment 3168047 View attachment 3168048 Uncle Ben-
> 
> First post on RIU, but had to take the time to personally thank you. I've been a silent student learning from the fringes. You haven't touched my plant, watered or fed it, yet you have helped me reach a new threshold of grower ability.
> Your willingness to teach and inform despite the dumb questions coming from all over the classroom is inspirational.
> ...


Thanks for the feedback! Nice job....and....keep it green.

Tio


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## Samcro4 (Jun 5, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Thanks for the feedback! Nice job....and....keep it green.
> 
> Tio


I do have to say if it wasn't for guys like you and homebrewer on here this place would not be worth the time. I'm new, lurked for a long time before finally signing up. I follow you two almost exclusively as a noob because there are so many dudes preaching dumb shit on here its ridiculous. I started out from scratch before jumping on the boards by reading Jorge Cervantes' grow bible and I would highly recommend reading that book to anyone new internet forums. Prepared me with the basic knowledge to filter out some of the bullshit on these forums. Pretty sure he mentions you in his book.

I read a thread today where someone said dipping your finished buds in coca cola and then drying them adds %30 more weight and leaves the buds in good shape. Wtf? That was just today. He was serious.

You guys had me sold at Dynagro and calling bullshit on these other companies selling nutes w fancy names and fancy claims when all you've gotta do is hit your macros. Have followed you both to gain knowledge since. So if you are ever getting frustrated w repeat questions or dumb questions just know that you guys ARE helping and your time IS appreciated.

Ps. I want to open a nute company. I'll use the 1-3-2 flower macros and call it Double D's. Have some smoking chick on the label w lots of cleavage and not much clothes. Slogan will be, "For when two handfuls just isn't enough." I think I'll make a killing.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 5, 2014)

Welcome to the real world!

Yes, I was a contributor to Jorge's (George Patten's) book.

Mel Frank's Guide is a must-have. No bullshit, botany driven.

Good luck!


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## SmokeAL0t (Jun 8, 2014)

Not sure why this surprised me. Been watching your posts for quite a while, Ben. Thanks for sharing the inscription as well as tons of knowledge/advice to the community. Good stuff, highly appreciated! (I've had this thread bookmarked even when I was inactive on RUI).


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## Know One (Jun 8, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Welcome to the real world!
> 
> Yes, I was a contributor to Jorge's (George Patten's) book.
> 
> ...


I am on the same page as you UB. Mel Franks "Marijuana Growers Insiders Guide" is the ultimate reference guide (With all due respect to Jorge).


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## scarecrow77 (Jun 9, 2014)

Hey uncle Ben....can I get the 2 cola plant if it starts at the 3rd true node..im asking this because I have it trimmed for mainlining but im not going to have the time to train them for it..at the 3rd node seems to be the strongest ...or does it have to be at the first true node for 2 colas...i stripped everything under the 3rd node..will it still work ...thanks ..
Scarecrow77


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 9, 2014)

1st for 2 colas.


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## scarecrow77 (Jun 10, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> 1st for 2 colas.


thanks..ub..


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## Know One (Jun 11, 2014)

I topped this three days ago and thought it was a good representation of where to top for 4 main colas.
Thanks to UB, I will be topping all of the time from now on.
I'll throw some pics of topped Jesus OG and super Snow Lotus later today.


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## chiefbootknocker (Jun 11, 2014)

So the thread says top above the second node not including the seed leaves. So that would put the first node being the single serrated leaf and the second at the 3 leaflet.....this assumes doing it from seed of course. Is it okay to skip the node with the single leaflet and go 2 up from there? The reason I say is because I tried to start outside and hit a couple of bad days and I have some stretch in that area. Hell I don't even know if it matters or not really.

I have to say that I'm a bit worried about trying this because if I cut at 5 - 6 nodes the axial growth (at least in my case) is going to be pretty minimal and then placing them in flower from the point of cut does not seem like a huge yielder to me. It just seems like a squat plant with 4 1/4oz colas maybe. Please forgive me I'm not trying to insult this method. If I wasn't fully intrigued I would not be posting. I just worry about getting the most potential out of my plants and I'm willing to try anything that will give first great quality, and second huge heavy buds.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 11, 2014)

Know One said:


> I topped this three days ago and thought it was a good representation of where to top for 4 main colas.
> Thanks to UB, I will be topping all of the time from now on.
> I'll throw some pics of topped Jesus OG and super Snow Lotus later today.


Looks like 3 nodes to me.


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## Know One (Jun 11, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Looks like 3 nodes to me.


I think (hope) it's just the angle. Here are a few pics of that same plant from another angle, plus a couple of others for you to hopefully verify correct node for 4 main.
I topped all of my plants in the same place so please let me know if I need to go one more node down. Your input is greatly appreciated.


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## a senile fungus (Jun 11, 2014)

Take care of that algae on the rockwool. Don't let light hit the rockwool like that...


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 12, 2014)

3 nodes


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## Know One (Jun 12, 2014)

Thanks for taking the time to set it straight UB. Just wanted to be sure.
I am also sure you already answered this, but now I'm curious of course. If I top down one node right now, will I still get the same hormonal re-distribution to get the 4 main? Or did I screw that up by already topping and going up one too high?


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 13, 2014)

Know One said:


> Thanks for taking the time to set it straight UB. Just wanted to be sure.
> I am also sure you already answered this, but now I'm curious of course. If I top down one node right now, will I still get the same hormonal re-distribution to get the 4 main? Or did I screw that up by already topping and going up one too high?


Plant doesn't care, it will re-distribute the hormones to the tissue that remains.

As I wrote on the first post -* "To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node. The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count. The result will be a redistribution of the auxins and other hormones that normally collect in the tissue of the terminal leader's tip. These ho moans will be redistributed to dormant buds that reside in the nodal axis where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk", below the cut.*"


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## Know One (Jun 13, 2014)

Got it for sure now and will post images weekly as they grow.
Can't say it enough, thanks a million for your time UB.
Here's a quick list of the strains I have going from seed in case anyone is interested.

_Subcool--Jesus OG_
_BC Bud--Blueberry_
_Female Seeds--Bubblegummer_
_TH Seeds--Darkstar_
_Bodhi-- Super Snow Lotus_


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## youknowthekid! (Jun 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Plant doesn't care, it will re-distribute the hormones to the tissue that remains.
> 
> As I wrote on the first post -* "To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node. The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count. The result will be a redistribution of the auxins and other hormones that normally collect in the tissue of the terminal leader's tip. These ho moans will be redistributed to dormant buds that reside in the nodal axis where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk", below the cut.*"


I've seen girls get seriously stunted with that kind of decapitation. Never seen one stunt from pinching the new growth.


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## mmjmon (Jun 14, 2014)

You could top above the 3rd node, pull the lower set of leaves and pot it in soil bringing the soil up above where you pulled the lower leaves off and still get your 4 colas. This also helps with that initial stretch you get sometimes and hopefully gives you more of a root system.


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## papajohn (Jun 23, 2014)

ub which is a better practice to date?

1.a undisturb rootball during transplant.
2.a spinout rootball cut vertically to benefit from secondary branching at transplant?


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 23, 2014)

If the rootball is not spun out real bad then no need to vertically cut it. Just use some common sense based on the reaction of the plant after you take some action upon it.


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## Hablamos (Jun 23, 2014)

I'm not sure if the technique is respected but i have great result with 4 main cola with Liberty Haze and Critical Kush.

Washer/dryer wardrobe convert in veg garden, the embed 4 inch exaust is a charm!


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## coughee420 (Jun 25, 2014)

youknowthekid! said:


> I've seen girls get seriously stunted with that kind of decapitation. Never seen one stunt from pinching the new growth.


Stunted? Yes i know what that word means.
Could you describe how and where you witnessed this? not trying to be rude but could you please explain a bit more please .


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## Bazooka Joe (Jun 28, 2014)

Roseman said:


> Uncle BEN, GREAT THREAD, + REP for you! I have tried and tried to master this technique, and please look at my pic under my signature. I had 13 stalks, 9 major ones, on one plant, by topping it 6 times, twice at 2, 3 and 4 weeks of VEGGING.


Can you explain how you accomplished this please?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Rollitup mobile app


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## Jbone77 (Jun 29, 2014)

I also top for 4 tops, works great, but seriously, how did this thread make it to page 273? why is it in the advanced section and not the newbie section? Im not knocking UB here at all but the simple fact that the same exact questions get asked over and over and over and over should tell you its a newbie thread.


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## mmjmon (Jun 29, 2014)

Jbone77 said:


> I also top for 4 tops, works great, but seriously, how did this thread make it to page 273? why is it in the advanced section and not the newbie section? Im not knocking UB here at all but the simple fact that the same exact questions get asked over and over and over and over should tell you its a newbie thread.


 

Yes some of us newbies may have grasped the objective from reading the first page or so....but the simple fact that seeing the same questions and arguments over and over and over and over should explain why it is in the advanced section.


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## Jbone77 (Jun 30, 2014)

mmjmon said:


> Yes some of us newbies may have grasped the objective from reading the first page or so....but the simple fact that seeing the same questions and arguments over and over and over and over should explain why it is in the advanced section.


So what you are saying is that just like AN, the advanced growing techniques section here at riu is only advanced by name and that they use the title to attract the less experienced by making them feel that a simple topping technique is some how a difficult thing and that they may need to read a 278 page thread to get the idea?


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## Sativied (Jun 30, 2014)

Jbone77 said:


> I also top for 4 tops, works great, but seriously, how did this thread make it to page 273?


Because there's topping and there's UB topping technique. Also many newer growers would like a confirmation on when and where to top after reading and before doing it. There are probably also a lot of other questions buried in this thread from people smart enough to ask UB while he was still answering. I agree it shouldn't be in the advanced section though but there's no evil conspiracy by 'they'. See quote in my sig from OP... and that goes for forums too.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 30, 2014)

Jbone77 said:


> So what you are saying is that just like AN, the advanced growing techniques section here at riu is only advanced by name and that they use the title to attract the less experienced by making them feel that a simple topping technique is some how a difficult thing and that they may need to read a 278 page thread to get the idea?


The purpose of the thread is to teach folks about hormonal processes and plant responses as it relates to a certain grower action with a particular outcome in mind. Most won't or don't get that.

I'd say an action that gets you 4 main colas with 100% accuracy is not a newbie technique nor is understanding the high value of root tip pruning using air or chemical means. You won't find it in Plant Culture 101 in your local library and there is no reason to put in Newbie section where folks ought to be focused on the ABC's of plant culture, NOT specific techniques.

The fact that it made it to page 273 is a statement about this community....and yes, 95% of the threads started in the Advanced section are a farce IMO.

nuff said.....


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## youknowthekid! (Jul 2, 2014)

coughee420 said:


> Stunted? Yes i know what that word means.
> Could you describe how and where you witnessed this? not trying to be rude but could you please explain a bit more please .



This was in response to the hypothetical scenario in which you may seek to chop a relatively mature plant, losing several levels of nodes, to get back to a 4-main-branch growth distribution. I've cut relatively mature plants, around 10", way down to try to achieve this goal before and the results were bad. It's possible, and can work- maybe even well, but it's far from optimal. Growing well is about timing, and working with what you got when you get it.


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## FresnoFarmer (Jul 6, 2014)

A few seedlings topped at third node for 2 tops. First and second node growth were removed.


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## budman111 (Jul 14, 2014)

FresnoFarmer said:


> A few seedlings topped at third node for 2 tops. First and second node growth were removed.View attachment 3196966


Why go for 2 tops when you can get 4? Just curious.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 14, 2014)

FresnoFarmer said:


> A few seedlings topped at third node for 2 tops. First and second node growth were removed.


Bury the trunk up to the first set of productive green leaves (pinching off the ones that look bad). You'll get massive root output.


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## FresnoFarmer (Jul 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Bury the trunk up to the first set of productive green leaves (pinching off the ones that look bad). You'll get massive root output.


That is what I do when they go in the ground and larger pots.


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## FresnoFarmer (Jul 14, 2014)

budman111 said:


> Why go for 2 tops when you can get 4? Just curious.


I top for 4 when I have veg time. I top for two, then when those two grow out a bit I top both of those and it makes 4 equal colas.


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## Flagg420 (Jul 14, 2014)

I got a 4 cola jack herer a week into flower now, cant wait  4th one is a lil bit smaller than the others, but the base looks like a perfect halfway-mainline grow, lol. Next from seed JH I will main line to 8....


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## Know One (Jul 17, 2014)

Hi UB
The information and knowledge you have taught and provided on here is priceless. Thanks again.
I promised some pics of my topped Super Snow Lotus and Jesus OG and I am thrilled with how they're looking. The first pic is of the SSL and 2nd is of a Jesus OG that is over 4' tall. These are both on day 24 of flower. Both are sitting on 4" X4" RW cubes on top of another 4" deep small slap I created for one plant. Both are already covered in buds that smell potent and look to me like each of these trunks will be 1 huge bud when all is said and done.

The J-OG base in 4'X4" cube. (hard to see all 4 trunks in pic)






Super Snow Lotus.





Jesus OG





next to eachother.





I will post more as they progress


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 18, 2014)

You're welcome. Curious, what happened to the leaves? Without a heavy canopy of leaves your yield will greatly suffer.


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## keebo3000 (Jul 18, 2014)

Dear uncle Ben, I owe you an apology. you tried to tell me time and time again what the problems with my grow were, and because didnt like the way you said it i choose to argue with you. well you were completely correct. I have X'ed out advance nutrients and gone as basic as possible, And i use the techniques you describe on this thread to get excellent yields time after time. just didnt sit right with me the way I spoke to you and still use your methods. so just wanted to say my bad, and thanks for the info. peace


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## FresnoFarmer (Jul 18, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> You're welcome. Curious, what happened to the leaves? Without a heavy canopy of leaves your yield will greatly suffer.


He probably cut them off to create more light to the lower budsites. It increases yield by 400%. You should try it.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 18, 2014)

FresnoFarmer said:


> He probably cut them off to create more light to the lower budsites. It increases yield by 400%. You should try it.


I'll keep in mind.


----------



## jacksthc (Jul 19, 2014)

would agree that he's removed too many leaves and done it at the wrong time 
it's always best to keep it simple till you have done a few crops and even then some growers should not try this 

I have played with my plants a lot over the years and you can gain a lot of extra bud if you do it right 

problem is, from what I have seen is most growers get it wrong so topping is the best way of training plants for most growers 
and will always give a better yield than not training the plant at all 

don't know if uncle Ben gives out this advice but I always flower the plant under 2ft (18" is the best height to get the best yield ) 
short plants always yield more high quality bud than tall stretched plants under a 600w hps


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 20, 2014)

I flower plants based on my garden's limitations and logistics. For indoor that's 10-14" tall.


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## jacksthc (Jul 20, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> I flower plants based on my garden's limitations and logistics. For indoor that's 10-14" tall.


Hi uncle ben 
I was thinking a 600w would penetrate the canopy 18" and a 1000w hps even more than that, but tbh 10-14" would give you a lot of high qualty bud, just like getting any extra free bud I can


----------



## youknowthekid! (Jul 20, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> I flower plants based on my garden's limitations and logistics. For indoor that's 10-14" tall.


I thought you're a big proponent of long veg-time. How do you mature them and flower while maintaining that height?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 20, 2014)

They finish at 36" +


----------



## jacksthc (Jul 21, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> They finish at 36" +


so you grow sativa strains as they do most there growing in flower, so you flower them off at 10-14" high and they finish at 36"+ 
not a big lover of sativa dominant strains when it comes to topping as the nodes grow uneven 

where a good indica dominant plant will grow 50-100% more when you turn it over to flower, (less stretch so you don't run out of height and larger dense buds, good for newbies) the nodes grow even so you get better results when you top them, also you get a high yield for the short time there in flower


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 22, 2014)

That would be mutts, not sativa.


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## jacksthc (Jul 22, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> That would be mutts, not sativa.


you can call it what you like, mutts, sativa dominant, sativa hybrids who cares, there only 2 plants grown inside under light ( sativa or indica and its called Hybrid when you mix some sativa and indica together

The point is indica dominant Hybrid strains don't grow 3-4 times there height in flower


----------



## FresnoFarmer (Jul 22, 2014)

Topped for 4 mains.


----------



## Chargermane (Jul 22, 2014)

*Can someone please help me with this quick question. New to DWC and I want to use this topping technique...try it out.

Which would be considered the first "true" node? #1 or #2? Thanks guys!

P.S....before someone gets on my ass about this post, I can't see the pics from the original post by uncle ben. They won't show.

 
*


----------



## Chargermane (Jul 22, 2014)

*Also I see UB and other people saying that they use this on plants with long internodes to control height.

My internodes are really small and tight, would using this topping technique useful still?*


----------



## FresnoFarmer (Jul 23, 2014)

Chargermane said:


> *Also I see UB and other people saying that they use this on plants with long internodes to control height.
> 
> My internodes are really small and tight, would using this topping technique useful still?*


Cut above #1 for 2 mains and above #2 for 4 mains.


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## FresnoFarmer (Jul 23, 2014)

And yes. You can benefit from topping. Believe it can increase yield.


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## Chargermane (Jul 23, 2014)

*Appreciate the answers FresnoFarmer!!!
*


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## keebo3000 (Jul 23, 2014)

Chargermane said:


> *Appreciate the answers FresnoFarmer!!!*


Undeniable that Uncle Ben's technique provides extra yield. Here is my grow from start to finish using Uncle Ben's method


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 23, 2014)

Thanks for sharing keebo3000 and very cool that you would make a video (although I didn't watch it all, am short on monthly allocation of provider bandwidth).

BTW, who's that fine singer? Wow.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 23, 2014)

jacksthc said:


> you can call it what you like, mutts, sativa dominant, sativa hybrids who cares, there only 2 plants grown inside under light ( sativa or indica and its called Hybrid when you mix some sativa and indica together


Appreciate the schooling LOL.

Here's an indica mutt I used as a parent. Internodes about 1/2", leaves as big as dinner plates, wide over lapping leaves, stout trunk/stems. Think short.



And this would be a sativa. Leggy, narrow leaves, long internodes, thin (and weak) stems/trunk. Think "tall".


----------



## keebo3000 (Jul 23, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Thanks for sharing keebo3000 and very cool that you would make a video (although I didn't watch it all, am short on monthly allocation of provider bandwidth).
> 
> BTW, who's that fine singer? Wow.



I will tell her you liked it. She is my sister. lol


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 23, 2014)

keebo3000 said:


> I will tell her you liked it. She is my sister. lol


No way. 

Is her music on the market? If not, why not?


----------



## keebo3000 (Jul 23, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> No way.
> 
> Is her music on the market? If not, why not?



she is trying to get it there. she has an album called " for medicinal purposes" thats where this song came from.


----------



## keebo3000 (Jul 23, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> No way.
> 
> Is her music on the market? If not, why not?



oh yea, its on Itunes


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 23, 2014)

keebo3000 said:


> oh yea, its on Itunes


She'd be one helluva competitor on America's Got Talent although anything linked to cannabis would not be allowed and that's OK. There's plenty to write about. Voice has soul, depth, and the band is tight....really good.


----------



## Chargermane (Jul 23, 2014)

keebo3000 said:


> Undeniable that Uncle Ben's technique provides extra yield. Here is my grow from start to finish using Uncle Ben's method


*Amazing video!!!!!!! Love to do a time lapse myself one day. Have you ever done the topping technique on an indica strain???*


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## jacksthc (Jul 23, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Appreciate the schooling LOL.
> 
> Here's an indica mutt I used as a parent. Internodes about 1/2", leaves as big as dinner plates, wide over lapping leaves, stout trunk/stems. Think short.
> 
> ...


great pics

In the past when I said about remove a few leaves it was to give a plant that was strong like an indica mutt but a deeper canopy like the sativa plant with thicker stems, somwhere in the middle, you do it by hand or grow a 50% hybrid indica/sativa to give better yeilds and larger canopy

its all about getting the canopy shape just right

It good you have an open mind and share a lot of good knowledge with members on here


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## Chargermane (Jul 23, 2014)

*Well, she came off today.

 

 *


----------



## Chargermane (Jul 23, 2014)

*Question...do I keep giving it same amount of nutes or do I cut back?*


----------



## keebo3000 (Jul 24, 2014)

Chargermane said:


> *Amazing video!!!!!!! Love to do a time lapse myself one day. Have you ever done the topping technique on an indica strain???*



Yes sir. It works on every Strain I've tried....Mostly mutts, lol and indica's.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 24, 2014)

jacksthc said:


> its all about getting the canopy shape just right


There is a big difference between training via pruning and pruning because of some misguided forum paradigm. 99% of folks who defoliate don't know what they're doing. I have literally pruned and trained thousands of landscape, fruit trees, grapevines, cannabis....you name it. I understand the future outcome before i make a cut. I can visualize what that tree will look like 10 years from now based on my actions now and can visualize what cannabis will look like when I harvest.

Bottom line - this is not hearsay, it's science and any time you remove a productive leaf which won't be replaced in part or more in the near future, you've stunted the plant and reduced yields.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 24, 2014)

Chargermane said:


> *Question...do I keep giving it same amount of nutes or do I cut back?*


For starts, I'm not sure what you did and what's left. The color purple is not my favorite color for making a clear decision.

2 - you fertilize based on plant bulk. You have little left which means the plant does not want or need much food now. Don't push your plants with nutes. Let them grow at their own pace.


----------



## Chargermane (Jul 24, 2014)

*


Uncle Ben said:



For starts, I'm not sure what you did and what's left. The color purple is not my favorite color for making a clear decision.

2 - you fertilize based on plant bulk. You have little left which means the plant does not want or need much food now. Don't push your plants with nutes. Let them grow at their own pace.

Click to expand...

Sorry. It's lights off right now but when they come back on i'll turn it off and take a picture without the LED so it's more clear. I just cut above the second node.

Ok so my plant was at 500 PPM so I'll dilute it back into the 200's or 300's. I just thought 2 things: one, that if you drop the PPM's a crazy amount like that it'd stress the plant out. Two, you give nutes based on root mass. 
*


----------



## keebo3000 (Jul 24, 2014)

Chargermane said:


> *Well, she came off today.
> 
> View attachment 3211635
> 
> View attachment 3211634 *



What did you do? A top is a small cut, that looks massacred.... She will recover tho'...good luck.


----------



## Chargermane (Jul 24, 2014)

keebo3000 said:


> What did you do? A top is a small cut, that looks massacred.... She will recover tho'...good luck.


*Don't scare me now people lol. I cut it right above the second node! My plant was at 6 nodes and it was super bushy...very tight nodes.. maybe that's why it looks like it was massacred. 

 *


----------



## jacksthc (Jul 24, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> There is a big difference between training via pruning and pruning because of some misguided forum paradigm. 99% of folks who defoliate don't know what they're doing. I have literally pruned and trained thousands of landscape, fruit trees, grapevines, cannabis....you name it. I understand the future outcome before i make a cut. I can visualize what that tree will look like 10 years from now based on my actions now and can visualize what cannabis will look like when I harvest.
> 
> Bottom line - this is not hearsay, it's science and any time you remove a productive leaf which won't be replaced in part or more in the near future, you've stunted the plant and reduced yields.


I would say its more like 99.9% of folks who defoliate don't know what they're doing and I too understand the future outcome before i make a cut or defoliate a single leaf on my plant, (well get it right 80% of the time lol)

just like knowing when to top a plant and where, often I find cutting a plant back a few a times in veg will help to keep the shorts, strong and the canopy level ( remove a productive leaf and top part of the plant will always stunt the plant but with a little more veg time, you can pull a larger yield as the canopy should be more level in flower)

have you ever tried cutting all the top fan leaves in half when you turn the plants over to flower ?

the all the lower nodes grow quick and the node space is very close at the top of the plant

and as the top shoots don't stretch they become thicker and can support bigger bud growth, a lot of lower side shoots become even with the top shoots
the buds grow a little odd in shape in mid flower, but by the end of flower, all the small buds form one large cola 

as you understand the future outcome before u make the cut, you can see this working really well

you will need a little longer in veg, but indoors under light, the top part of the canopy is where you get most your good quality bud


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## jacksthc (Jul 24, 2014)

Chargermane said:


> *Don't scare me now people lol. I cut it right above the second node! My plant was at 6 nodes and it was super bushy...very tight nodes.. maybe that's why it looks like it was massacred.
> 
> View attachment 3212171 *


its all good, as it grows, tie the shoots down so it looks like an x shape and keep them all the same height if you can

you will have 4 top shoots before you know it


----------



## Chargermane (Jul 24, 2014)

*Heres the pics with the flash

  *


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 24, 2014)

Chargermane said:


> *Heres the pics with the flash
> 
> View attachment 3212208 View attachment 3212209 *


Looks OK to me.


----------



## budman111 (Jul 25, 2014)

Chargermane said:


> *Heres the pics with the flash
> 
> View attachment 3212208 View attachment 3212209 *


I top them long before they get to this stage.


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## papajohn (Jul 25, 2014)

ub when you're mixing both the orthene & Imidacloprid as a soil drench,what rates per gal you use??


----------



## Chargermane (Jul 25, 2014)

budman111 said:


> I top them long before they get to this stage.


*What stage is that? I did exactly what UB said and waited till she got to 5-6 nodes.*


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## jacksthc (Jul 25, 2014)

Chargermane said:


> *What stage is that? I did exactly what UB said and waited till she got to 5-6 nodes.*


your plant looks great, done the same thing often myself

but correct me, if I got this wrong but if UB said 5-6 nodes or you could say the 3rd set of nodes
and it looks like you waited till the 5-6 set of nodes, guessing 11-12 node before removing the top 7-8 nodes leaving you with 4 nodes or 2 sets of nodes which will give you 4 top shoots

so you didn't follow uncle Ben's advice


----------



## budman111 (Jul 25, 2014)

Chargermane said:


> *What stage is that? I did exactly what UB said and waited till she got to 5-6 nodes.*


I find if you air prune the roots in rockwool blocks the plant can have a lot of root in a short time in the block and leads a more robust plant overall (genetics permitting off course) and top about the 4th node.


----------



## Chargermane (Jul 25, 2014)

jacksthc said:


> your plant looks great, done the same thing often myself
> 
> but correct me, if I got this wrong but if UB said 5-6 nodes or you could say the 3rd set of nodes
> and it looks like you waited till the 5-6 set of nodes, guessing 11-12 node before removing the top 7-8 nodes leaving you with 4 nodes or 2 sets of nodes which will give you 4 top shoots
> ...


*No. I waited till 5-6 nodes. Set of nodes? I don't know why what you're saying is so confusing. I don't know anything about "sets" of nodes....just nodes.

Waited till she grew 5-6 nodes and cut right above the second. So I did follow his advice. 





*


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## jacksthc (Jul 26, 2014)

With indica strains the nodes grow even (looks like a pair one each side of the main shoot ) each one at the top part the plant will become the top shoot 

The pictures are showing where the nodes grow and in the picture there is 4 nodes


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## a senile fungus (Jul 26, 2014)

jacksthc said:


> With indica strains the nodes grow even (looks like a pair one each side of the main shoot ) each one at the top part the plant will become the top shoot
> 
> The pictures are showing where the nodes grow and in the picture there is 4 nodes


@jacksthc

I know you're trying to help but I think you may end up confusing the newer users.

I hope that you understand the danger of posting misinformation on a thread that is frequented by newbs.


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## a senile fungus (Jul 26, 2014)

jacksthc said:


> With indica strains the nodes grow even (looks like a pair one each side of the main shoot ) each one at the top part the plant will become the top shoot
> 
> The pictures are showing where the nodes grow and in the picture there is 4 nodes


That picture is showing two leaf sets, each individual leaf set is stemming from a node. So that picture shows two nodes. 

If those were the bottom two nodes then one would cut in between the 2nd and 3rd node (a space called the internode) to top for 4 main colas...

I think you're confusing yourself by thinking of alternating nodes, which indicates sexual maturity in a plant. Clones will have alternating nodes as they are the same sexual maturity as the host plant.

In this thread the OP specifies that this technique is for plants from seed, which means that the nodes will not alternate, at least not yet, which means that the pic above is perfect. If your nodes are alternating then you may be kinda far along for this kind of topping...

Have you ever googled "plant nodes definition", if not you may want to...


I was gonna send a PM but I think this needs to be laid out here for the general public.

Feel free to respond inline or via PM


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## jacksthc (Jul 26, 2014)

No don't get what you saying at all there are 4 leave soon to become fan leave that will support each node that grows next to it so with so 4 leaves 4 nodes this is basic stuff everyone needs to know

So when the plants have 5 leaves/nodes you remove the top node
The top nodes or pair of nodes will give 4 nodes/shoots left

Or as the 5/6 node starts to grow
you cut in half to fim

you may need to read up on this your self


----------



## a senile fungus (Jul 26, 2014)

jacksthc said:


> No don't get what you saying at all there are 4 leave soon to become fan leave that will support each node that grows next to it so with so 4 leaves 4 nodes this is basic stuff everyone needs to know






> So when the plants have 5 leaves/nodes you remove the top node
> The top nodes or pair of nodes will give 4 nodes/shoots left


I'm using the same wording that is in the first post of this thread. It says to pinch or cut above the 2nd true node (opposing leaf set). Like this pic posted by @Uncle Ben in post #30...



What you are saying directly conflicts with the information in the original post of this thread and, as I said before, you may end up confusing the newer members 



> you may need to read up on this your self


If I'm wrong then please point me towards the appropriate links.

Thanks


----------



## jacksthc (Jul 26, 2014)

If you topped a plant with staggered nodes or level nodes you still need to cut off the 5th node to get 4 tops

ub had pictures up a while back
I rember it well when he done the same thread on thct*lk

and a few comments saying cut the 5/6 node to ub so I am sure ub ment cut above the 2nd set of nodes as its the only way you can end up with 4 tops


----------



## youknowthekid! (Jul 27, 2014)

jacksthc said:


> great pics
> 
> In the past when I said about remove a few leaves it was to give a plant that was strong like an indica mutt but a deeper canopy like the sativa plant with thicker stems, somwhere in the middle, you do it by hand or grow a 50% hybrid indica/sativa to give better yeilds and larger canopy
> 
> ...


uncle bens indicas stretch 3ft because he's a nitrogen whore . its the same when I use H&G


----------



## youknowthekid! (Jul 27, 2014)

pinch new growth only... don't chop a plant in half! worst case scenario is youre a little off and fim it, but hey no stunt.
UB- random question, how often and when do you run fans in your veg/flower spaces?


----------



## Chargermane (Jul 28, 2014)

*Lol anyyyywho....Besides all the commotion, my topped plant looks AMAZING. Just 5 days ago I topped her and she looked all beat up. Now she's lookin' purrty. Can't wait to see the results of this technique. Thanks UB and everyone else responding! *

*Before


After
 *


----------



## jacksthc (Jul 29, 2014)

Chargermane said:


> *Lol anyyyywho....Besides all the commotion, my topped plant looks AMAZING. Just 5 days ago I topped her and she looked all beat up. Now she's lookin' purrty. Can't wait to see the results of this technique. Thanks UB and everyone else responding! *
> 
> *Before
> View attachment 3215639
> ...


that's why I said 



jacksthc said:


> its all good, as it grows, tie the shoots down so it looks like an x shape and keep them all the same height if you can
> 
> you will have 4 top shoots before you know it


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2014)

papajohn said:


> ub when you're mixing both the orthene & Imidacloprid as a soil drench,what rates per gal you use??


I don't use orthene and wouldn't because it's not needed plus I consider it not safe for personal consumption. With the imidacloprid 1/4 tsp/gal. just enough to saturate the pot with a little runoff.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2014)

budman111 said:


> I find if you air prune the roots in rockwool blocks the plant can have a lot of root in a short time in the block and leads a more robust plant overall (genetics permitting off course) and top about the 4th node.


Yeah, it's all a judgement call. I only use the 5th or 6th node as a guide. Usually by then the plant is well into it's latter juvenile stage with full term leafsets meaning the root system should be good too. I could top when the plant has 3 nodes or 8 and get the same result.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2014)

Chargermane said:


> *Lol anyyyywho....Besides all the commotion, my topped plant looks AMAZING. Just 5 days ago I topped her and she looked all beat up. Now she's lookin' purrty. Can't wait to see the results of this technique. Thanks UB and everyone else responding! *
> 
> *After
> View attachment 3215638 *


Nice. 4 colas aka "trunks", all showing apical dominance.


----------



## Know One (Jul 30, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> You're welcome. Curious, what happened to the leaves? Without a heavy canopy of leaves your yield will greatly suffer.


Hi UB,
1st, sorry it took so long to respond.
I haven't cut or pulled off any leaves as I am a huge proponent of keeping as much foliage as possible right to the end.
This Jesus OG was from seed, topped at 2nd node, flowered for 2 weeks, Back to veg for 2 weeks to take babies and back into flower (again).
Today on day 38-
Super Snow Lotus 1





2






Jesus OG 1





2





3





I do realize that the yield will be less for this round due to regenerating, but I am already looking forward to putting several of the babies that have already rooted in for the next round and for future grows.
Your advice is always appreciated UB.
Hope all is well with you.


----------



## Peace111 (Jul 30, 2014)

With 276 pages I can't really check if this has already been asked, lol, but sorry if it has been.

I have never topped or fimmed before, so this will be my first time. Here is my question to you Uncle Ben:

If the leaves on my first true node have some brown patches and are not in good shape (possibly on their way to dying off), should I still cut above the 2nd true node, or should I go above the 3rd true node so the 2 nodes below have all healthy leaves?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 31, 2014)

Know One said:


> I do realize that the yield will be less for this round due to regenerating, but I am already looking forward to putting several of the babies that have already rooted in for the next round and for future grows.
> Your advice is always appreciated UB.
> Hope all is well with you.


Pots are too small, especially for going a second round. Before transitioning from a flowering response to veg, upcan to a bigger pot so you'll get a nice flush of roots before flowering again. It's a perfect opportunity.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 31, 2014)

Peace111 said:


> If the leaves on my first true node have some brown patches and are not in good shape (possibly on their way to dying off), should I still cut above the 2nd true node, or should I go above the 3rd true node so the 2 nodes below have all healthy leaves?


Gonna answer with a question - "where are the dormant foliar buds located and are they possibly damaged due to poor culture?" IOW, go back to the first post please. Learn plant anatomy.


----------



## Know One (Aug 4, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Pots are too small, especially for going a second round. Before transitioning from a flowering response to veg, upcan to a bigger pot so you'll get a nice flush of roots before flowering again. It's a perfect opportunity.


I was afraid this was going to happen with this girl, and one other. I went ahead and grabbed a few 5 gallon buckets and will be going with a mix of Perlite and RW chunks. I've used 100% Perlite in 3 gallon pots before with really nice results (aside from decent support) and frequent watering. 
I'll throw some pics up soon. Thanks


----------



## MuckyDucky (Aug 5, 2014)

I just finished topping 3 Indica dom plants for 4 colas. I have tried this 2 other times with Sativa dom plants and I got 4 mains but I had to scrog them because of height issues. Hopefully I will not run out of room this time with the CAP ebb&flo on the floor with the Indica doms.

These plants are 22 days old and were already over 13" tall. Also note the hollow stems.. normal or something I am doing not quite right??

Left to right - Blue Rhino, Desert Diesel and Bubba Kush.
Before
 

After
 

Blue Rhino Before
 

Blue Rhino after


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 5, 2014)

nice one removing the fan leaves, the canopy will grow more level


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 8, 2014)

Outdoor grown O. Haze after the chop - 4 perfect colas.


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 8, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Outdoor grown O. Haze after the chop - 4 perfect colas.
> 
> View attachment 3223963


Well done ub you topped a plant and flowered it off out side


----------



## adiaz5 (Aug 9, 2014)

what does this do make the plant grow bushy or make new colas come out? and whats better topper or fimming ? can you do both


----------



## Billy Madison (Aug 15, 2014)

Tried finding my balance in feeding with my first run, dutch passion blueberry, did burn it some, but oh man how I love this method.

THANK YOU UNCLE BEN!!! Also use grow as my base in flower thanks to you and homebrewer...and dyna gro...


----------



## Billy Madison (Aug 15, 2014)

I did burn the crap out of it, im a nooooob, but it was fun seeing the plants response...









This Blueberry ended up with two mains


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 16, 2014)

Nice job with only one comment, your plants look like they need more N with perhaps more micros to boot.


----------



## Billy Madison (Aug 16, 2014)

Thank you Uncle Ben, will do.


----------



## Big Perm (Aug 18, 2014)

Sorry if this has been asked already, 276 pages wow. 
Since we lost the old pics, is there a repost in here with the #1 post? If so, could someone point me to that page number please? 
Thanks


----------



## MuckyDucky (Aug 19, 2014)

Big Perm said:


> Sorry if this has been asked already, 276 pages wow.
> Since we lost the old pics, is there a repost in here with the #1 post? If so, could someone point me to that page number please?
> Thanks


I don't have a repost but

This is where you top it after the plant is old enough to have 6 - 8 total node pairs. This plant has been topped right above the 2nd node pair.
 

This is another view right after topping. It was done on 8/5/14... looks bad now.
 

This is the same plant. The photo was taken on 8/9/14, only 4 days after it was topped.


----------



## MuckyDucky (Aug 19, 2014)

Uncle Ben, You have said that thinnng the large fan leaves will only hurt your total harvest. I topped 3 plants in a 2x4' area and they are filling up the tent. They are already 30" tall, have only been flowering for 7 days and look like below. Is this too thick? Would thinning be beneficial if you have a very thick canopy?


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 19, 2014)

MuckyDucky said:


> I don't have a repost but
> 
> This is where you top it after the plant is old enough to have 6 - 8 total node pairs. This plant has been topped right above the 2nd node pair.
> View attachment 3232612
> ...


Your plants look really good, I would lollipop the bottom 1ft 
So your left with just over 2ft canopy


----------



## zander19 (Aug 19, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy!
> 
> Based on quite a few questions about topping I've received here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a-12.html I decided to reproduce a thread on my favorite topping method published at cann.com about 10 years ago. Even though I've got much better photos from many latter grows both indoor and outdoor, I'm gonna stick with the old photos from the original thread. Lighting is HPS from start to finish with the exception of using 4' long shop fluors from germ until about 2 weeks. Some pix were taken outdoors for better resolution thanks to an old camcorder I was using.
> *Selecting the point for topping to get 4 main colas* -
> ...


done what you said an got 4 tops on 5 plants. ty for the info brother


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 19, 2014)

Congrats. Easy peasy, eh.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Aug 19, 2014)

MuckyDucky said:


> Uncle Ben, You have said that thinnng the large fan leaves will only hurt your total harvest. I topped 3 plants in a 2x4' area and they are filling up the tent. They are already 30" tall, have only been flowering for 7 days and look like below. Is this too thick? Would thinning be beneficial if you have a very thick canopy?
> View attachment 3232615


That doesn't come near as "thick" as my indoor gardens. Leave them alone and do not lollipop. My plants are crammed into a limited space and they produce very well, up to 10 oz of bud/plant.

Pix #4 & 5 reflect how I grow indoors. https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/


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## MuckyDucky (Aug 19, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> That doesn't come near as "thick" as my indoor gardens. Leave them alone and do not lollipop. My plants are crammed into a limited space and they produce very well, up to 10 oz of bud/plant.
> 
> Pix #4 & 5 reflect how I grow indoors. https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/


Beautiful plants and colas UB. Thanks for the info and link. Yep, I will go ah la natural this round with no leaf trimming. I found the same thing; that bud sites do NOT have to have light to produce.... last grow I had buds completely shaded that were sitting under other buds in a scrog grow. They were a very light green, hard, firm and sticky. They colored up after a few hours in the light.


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## Chargermane (Aug 22, 2014)

*I think uncle bens topping technique worked wonders on my plant

  *


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 23, 2014)

That's a nice even canopy. Nice job! Looks like it could use someg green though.


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## Chargermane (Aug 23, 2014)

*Ill try to take a pic with the lights off when they wake up. My camera broke so i have to use my front facing camera...hopefully with no flash it'll capture the greenery *


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## Chargermane (Aug 24, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> That's a nice even canopy. Nice job! Looks like it could use someg green though.


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## chiefbootknocker (Sep 6, 2014)

I used this method on my last grow, and personally didn't like it. First, the stems were kinda thin throughout the grow, the plants needed support because of the weak stems, and also because of the whole center of the plant being gone. I also didn't realize any gains in yield either. I'm not sure maybe this method was just to control Sativa stretch though. If I were ever to grow again I would just stick to my Christmas Trees. They've never let me down before.

Fun experiment though. I tried it on 1) LSD 1) White Rhino 2) Vanilla Kush


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## NewtoMJ (Sep 6, 2014)

This question may have been answered, but I've been growing a little over a year now and the first few plants I let grow untouched to get a feel for their life cycle. Now I've topped a few plants using this technique and the first node(closer to the roots) always seems to grow a little shorter than the second node(closer to the point of pinch). This time around, I have noticed my plant's second and third nodes are growing a lot more even and vigorously than the first and second. Would it be possible to pinch above the third node, and remove the shoots from the first node to give myself the four main colas? Or is this just going to give me 2 mains and a lot of side branching?


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## Billy Madison (Sep 9, 2014)

member at icmag on a thread they made about you

"I wonder what uncleben himself thinks about waiting to 5-6 nodes before topping back to the second. Maybe he's changed his mind on it.

You_ are_ wasting some time and growth by waiting for the plant to get that much bigger only to top it back down again, there's no denying that. Maybe only a week or so, but still.. if you're happy with that, fair enough, but it is wasted time imo because it's for no benefit as far as I can see.

For me, to do the process in that way suggests the person doing the topping is worried about the plant being too fragile at that young age to respond well. It's not, I can say that from experience. I never wait for the plant to get bigger before I top it.

Next time, top one plant at the second node as soon as the shoot emerges, and leave the other one til it's 6th node and see what happens. Small side shoots from any branch can be used to make a clone. No need to wait for the main branch to grow to use that.

The best way to top a young plant is to fold the new emerging shoot over on itself so it pops like a little sugar snap. That way you don't damage the side shoots at all like you could with scissors or a razor. "

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=272286&page=4

Thoughts uncle ben?


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## SpaaaceCowboy (Sep 9, 2014)

chiefbootknocker said:


> I used this method on my last grow, and personally didn't like it. First, the stems were kinda thin throughout the grow, the plants needed support because of the weak stems, and also because of the whole center of the plant being gone. I also didn't realize any gains in yield either. I'm not sure maybe this method was just to control Sativa stretch though. If I were ever to grow again I would just stick to my Christmas Trees. They've never let me down before.
> 
> Fun experiment though. I tried it on 1) LSD 1) White Rhino 2) Vanilla Kush


I have an outdoor plant I topped using the UB technique...It was full and bushy indoors...Waited till the 6th node or so....Cut above the second...Now there is nothing in the middle of the plant...It was full, and lush with tight nodes...now the 4 main stems are thin and weak, and nodes are way spaced out.....Granted the outdoor plants are not getting as much sun as I wanted them too but I should just have let the pant gone without topping...I believe it would have been a way better plant...I am also going to have to put stakes to hold her up...Oh well.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 9, 2014)

NewtoMJ said:


> This question may have been answered, but I've been growing a little over a year now and the first few plants I let grow untouched to get a feel for their life cycle. Now I've topped a few plants using this technique and the first node(closer to the roots) always seems to grow a little shorter than the second node(closer to the point of pinch). This time around, I have noticed my plant's second and third nodes are growing a lot more even and vigorously than the first and second. Would it be possible to pinch above the third node, and remove the shoots from the first node to give myself the four main colas? Or is this just going to give me 2 mains and a lot of side branching?


Yes, if you keep all output removed. Why? Apical dominance - the growth hormones will tend to collect in the upper part of the plant. I have grown a plant to say.....4 nodes, pinched off the lower 2 branches and upcanned up to the remaining 2 nodes. You'll get the benefit of 4 main colas and an increased root mass, output from the nodes that were buried.

Good luck,
Uncle Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 9, 2014)

Billy Madison said:


> member at icmag on a thread they made about you
> 
> "I wonder what uncleben himself thinks about waiting to 5-6 nodes before topping back to the second. Maybe he's changed his mind on it.
> 
> ...


This guy isn't getting the entire jist of plant processes and tissue development but good advice - experiment. By letting the plant grow to 5-6 nodes you insure more root mass just like potentially you'll get more bud yields with increased root and foliar mass. With more root mass, more "energy" (I hate that term  ) will be directed to the foliage that is left so it will grow faster. Ever worked with trees? I have, thousands of them. Let the tree go "trashy", lot's of foliage, root mass is set, remove all whorls from the ground up to eye level and watch the the top 2' take off like a rocket come spring. 
It's a judgment call though. I can top above 3 nodes and get what I want faster than most that wait until 6-8 nodes. It depends on how experienced of a gardener you are. 

Interesting thread, thanks for the link. Feel free to take my response back. BTW, tried to subscribe to IC Mag a while back and as usual some one stole my handle.

Also, if anyone has an inside track to a mod or potroast I'll be glad to post the original photos as long as they'll stick them in Post #1 where they belong.

Tio


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 9, 2014)

SpaaaceCowboy said:


> I have an outdoor plant I topped using the UB technique...It was full and bushy indoors...Waited till the 6th node or so....Cut above the second...Now there is nothing in the middle of the plant...It was full, and lush with tight nodes...now the 4 main stems are thin and weak, and nodes are way spaced out.....Granted the outdoor plants are not getting as much sun as I wanted them too but I should just have let the pant gone without topping...I believe it would have been a way better plant...I am also going to have to put stakes to hold her up...Oh well.


Aint my technique at fault brother!


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## NewtoMJ (Sep 9, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yes, if you keep all output removed. Why? Apical dominance - the growth hormones will tend to collect in the upper part of the plant. I have grown a plant to say.....4 nodes, pinched off the lower 2 branches and upcanned up to the remaining 2 nodes. You'll get the benefit of 4 main colas and an increased root mass, output from the nodes that were buried.
> 
> Good luck,
> Uncle Ben


I did some reading on the five types of hormones a plant has, and figured that would be the answer you gave. I already topped at 3 but when I went to remove the bottom growth I saw shoots coming from the cotyledons. Now I am probably going to let it go out of curiosity(never seen cotyledon shoots). But thank you for the help, I appreciate the advice and your time in responding.


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## Billy Madison (Sep 9, 2014)

put your response back - will see what a mod can do but I'm new over there...

just frustrating trying to get through to some folks for years 

tried telling them to manipulate the auxins and apical dominance however they wanted, but I prefer your method.

Some couldn't quite comprehend that.

edit- just sent a mod a message - see if we can get you on the forum


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## Sativied (Sep 10, 2014)

Billy Madison said:


> edit- just sent a mod a message - see if we can get you on the forum


It's the least they can do considering:
https://www.icmag.com/modules/Tutorials/Breeding/971.htm


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## desertdog (Sep 10, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy!
> 
> 
> Uncle Ben said:
> ...


I


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## desertdog (Sep 10, 2014)

Is there any way to get the pics back up for the beginning of this thread on top of this page? If not I can figure it out I just like to see what you're doing.


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## desertdog (Sep 10, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy!
> 
> Based on quite a few questions about topping I've received here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a-12.html I decided to reproduce a thread on my favorite topping method published at cann.com about 10 years ago. Even though I've got much better photos from many latter grows both indoor and outdoor, I'm gonna stick with the old photos from the original thread. Lighting is HPS from start to finish with the exception of using 4' long shop fluors from germ until about 2 weeks. Some pix were taken outdoors for better resolution thanks to an old camcorder I was using.
> *Selecting the point for topping to get 4 main colas* -
> ...


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## Billy Madison (Sep 10, 2014)

desertdog said:


> Is there any way to get the pics back up for the beginning of this thread on top of this page? If not I can figure it out I just like to see what you're doing.


6th node developing
\|/
_5th node
\|/
_4th node
\|/
_3rd node
\|/
_2nd node - cut between 2nd and 3rd for 4 mains
\|/
_first set of true leaves - cut between 1st and 2nd for those 2 side branches to become the new mains
\|/
_cotyledons - first leaves to pop up
|


sorry for the poor "ASCII" art or however it's spelled 

instead of shooting most auxins straight up to the top - giving one main cola - apical dominance - Christmas tree like shape - the \|/ sides grow fat colas like the one in the middle would

My best yields come from this method
good luck


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## desertdog (Sep 10, 2014)

for some reason I am not getting the pics. I wonder if I have setting that needs to be changed. I can see everyone elses pics. please help if u can


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## UncleBuck (Sep 10, 2014)

i tried to top my plant for 7 colas exactly but ended up getting my dick caught in the ceiling fan. what did i do wrong?


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## desertdog (Sep 10, 2014)

Just wanted to let you know I found some pics of what it should look like. I was pretty sure I knew what to do, but the pics gave me the confidence to do the chop. I have never tried this but the result is exactly what I need for my space so I can fit six and not get a bunch stuff that takes all day to trim. Thanks again and I will be posting my results along with some of my monster clones. I clone buds and man they just explode with tops. I am going to run one of each of the same strain to see the output differences. If the weight is even close this is what I want. Less work, bigger bud and more smiles. Thanks


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## desertdog (Sep 10, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Ya'll are welcome. Like I said, the LOR needs updating. It's been years.
> 
> Funny how the old man really did know what he was doing, eh?
> 
> ...


So if you have a clone with alternating nodes it wont work? This is for seed only plants? Well that would be a bummer! all of my clones have alternating nodes. Is there a way to make it happen? When I cut two of my clones down at the third node I got several new tops, I think 6 so far and I am keeping them at that and not letting them grow any more. I am trying to do a six top with them and see what they do.


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## chiefbootknocker (Sep 11, 2014)

SpaaaceCowboy said:


> I have an outdoor plant I topped using the UB technique...It was full and bushy indoors...Waited till the 6th node or so....Cut above the second...Now there is nothing in the middle of the plant...It was full, and lush with tight nodes...now the 4 main stems are thin and weak, and nodes are way spaced out.....Granted the outdoor plants are not getting as much sun as I wanted them too but I should just have let the pant gone without topping...I believe it would have been a way better plant...I am also going to have to put stakes to hold her up...Oh well.



Yep. All-in-all I think the plants are better if you just plain don't mess with them. All this voodoo with hacking on them for a specific response is hit-or-miss. Some plants will respond real nice to that method, and others not so much. I think you can even break that down to pheno-type as well.


After trying this I fully believe what I've always said to myself when thinking of doing such things; "is that how the plant grows in nature"? If the answer is no then it's not the approach I'm taking.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 11, 2014)

chiefbootknocker said:


> Yep. All-in-all I think the plants are better if you just plain don't mess with them. All this voodoo with hacking on them for a specific response is hit-or-miss. Some plants will respond real nice to that method, and others not so much. I think you can even break that down to pheno-type as well.
> 
> 
> After trying this I fully believe what I've always said to myself when thinking of doing such things; "is that how the plant grows in nature"? If the answer is no then it's not the approach I'm taking.


With experience you'll change your mind. If you understand plant processes you can manipulate/train/prune to your advantage. How do you think vineyard and orchard managers become successful? You CAN NOT have a decent grape crop without understanding and practicing severe pruning techniques....while they're dormant.

My method is easy and foolproof. Here's some pix, first one is from my vineyard:


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## akhiymjames (Sep 11, 2014)

chiefbootknocker said:


> Yep. All-in-all I think the plants are better if you just plain don't mess with them. All this voodoo with hacking on them for a specific response is hit-or-miss. Some plants will respond real nice to that method, and others not so much. I think you can even break that down to pheno-type as well.
> 
> 
> After trying this I fully believe what I've always said to myself when thinking of doing such things; "is that how the plant grows in nature"? If the answer is no then it's not the approach I'm taking.


You have a valid good point but we're trying to get the most from the beautiful plants so this pruning method works in helping up the yield. Yes letting them grow naturally will produce a lovely plant and can yield a lot but most of us are growing indoors and have height restrictions so something must be done to slow the vertical growth and this is by far the best method to do it


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## a senile fungus (Sep 11, 2014)

Mine grow naturally outdoors. One of mine this year had a branch fall on it and it was essentially topped for 5 mains. This does happen naturally, all the time... The difference is intent, IMO

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Rollitup mobile app


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## chiefbootknocker (Sep 12, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> With experience you'll change your mind. If you understand plant processes you can manipulate/train/prune to your advantage. How do you think vineyard and orchard managers become successful? You CAN NOT have a decent grape crop without understanding and practicing severe pruning techniques....while they're dormant.
> 
> My method is easy and foolproof. Here's some pix, first one is from my vineyard:
> View attachment 3251271 View attachment 3251272 View attachment 3251273 View attachment 3251274 View attachment 3251275 View attachment 3251276




LOL I had to check what website I was on for a second. Nice grapes, but I wasn't growing grapes. Maybe that topping method works with grapes (I'll never know because I don't grow them) but not so much with weed....in my experience.


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## chiefbootknocker (Sep 12, 2014)

akhiymjames said:


> You have a valid good point but we're trying to get the most from the beautiful plants so this pruning method works in helping up the yield. Yes letting them grow naturally will produce a lovely plant and can yield a lot but most of us are growing indoors and have height restrictions so something must be done to slow the vertical growth and this is by far the best method to do it





I dig what you are saying. In my case I saw no increase in yield, and had a plant that required more attention than I normally would need to give.

Yield in general is debatable I think. A plant grown naturally yields X and a topped plant yields Y. You can't have it both ways so how can anyone be sure that it yields more? There is no way to prove that. I will give you the height control benefit. I can see that, and I think that is the primary reason to choose this method.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 12, 2014)

chiefbootknocker said:


> LOL I had to check what website I was on for a second. Nice grapes, but I wasn't growing grapes. Maybe that topping method works with grapes (I'll never know because I don't grow them) but not so much with weed....in my experience.


I was addressing your off the wall comment about leaving plants natural....trying to make a point which included my precious time of digging up photos of the topping process.

Don't know about your life but my focus is mostly on other plant material. Cannabis is at the bottom of the list at this point in my life. Been there, done that kinda of thing and am moving on to much more challenging hobbies.


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## Eflo (Sep 12, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> The GrowBig and Tiger Bloom sound like good choices, respectively.
> 
> I calibrate before each new test.....just the neurotic bozo in me.
> 
> ...


Hey UB think you for all the informative info you having giving. I'm just wondering if you don't flush does that show in the taste of your buds? I myself have never grown but I read all the time that you should flush your cannabis to get the nutrients out of it??? Just a little insight needed


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## chiefbootknocker (Sep 12, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> I was addressing your off the wall comment about leaving plants natural....*trying to make a point which included my precious time *of digging up photos of the topping process.
> 
> Don't know about your life but my focus is mostly on other plant material. Cannabis is at the bottom of the list at this point in my life. Been there, done that kinda of thing and am moving on to much more challenging hobbies.








OK. First, I know your rep....you are very combative to people who don't subscribe to your ideas. 

Well, before we get way off the mark.... That first bold set of text; are you serious? If so that sounds a little arrogant. Who are you?

Second: I agree, cannabis is at my very bottom of my list in my life too. I grew back in '08 - '10, and left it until this year and did one last grow, and now I'm done again. It's just a weed. No need to put all this focus on it. Hell I even drop leaves.....a pet peeve of yours...yes, I know you, but how much bud did I really loose from dropping leaves? You tell me as a "botanist"? Don't worry I already know the answer. I even used 6yo nutrients to grow most recently that's how much I care about how the plants do. I still pulled 1.81lb from a 4x4 on 1k hps. That's probably Greek to you since you don't grow. Can people grow bigger in the same area? Probably, but I don't care. I've got more pot than I can shake a stick at so fuck it, and I also didn't stress over a weed. I wasn't on here having stoners diagnose my leaves, and what not.

Do you ever think you perpetuate paranoia by telling people to make sure that the leaves a green to the end of the grow....i.e "keep it green"? Really? "Keep it Green"? Who gives a wet fart?

Since I can't retire for another 22yrs my hobby is networking i.e. routing and switching security and WiFi. Farming is a little too soon for me so I just hit the local farm market if I need grapes.lol


Listen: all-in-all I think you have good ideas, you are certainly old school (have seen you out on the net for years), and are generally smart. Your only downfall is that you are a republican..... that is not a downfall because you are a republican, but because you actually choose a party that does not care about you. With that said I'm not saying the Dem party is different. It's the same thing. They BOTH are full of shit. They play all of you.


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## Soulkipper (Sep 12, 2014)

please update the pics on the first page if you could.. they are definitely down.
Can anyone confirm the 2 cola method can be done by cutting above the 4th node instead of pinching above the first or resulting in 4 colas cutting above the 2nd node? _*(*This was mentioned on the first page*)*_
thanks ben.


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## budman111 (Sep 14, 2014)

Soulkipper said:


> please update the pics on the first page if you could.. they are definitely down.
> Can anyone confirm the 2 cola method can be done by cutting above the 4th node instead of pinching above the first or resulting in 4 colas cutting above the 2nd node? _*(*This was mentioned on the first page*)*_
> thanks ben.


What?! the 2 cola method can be created by topping at any time in veg or early flower, best to top just above the 2nd none to get 4 colas. WTF is "pinching above the first"?!


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## Eazy1 (Sep 14, 2014)

So am I tight in thinking . You just cut above the 3rd node to leave 4 colas and then veg untill you fill your space . Is there nothing else to do like cutting lover branches as you 4 tops get taller ? Just seems a really simple method . Or am I being stupid


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## desertdog (Sep 15, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> I was addressing your off the wall comment about leaving plants natural....trying to make a point which included my precious time of digging up photos of the topping process.
> 
> Don't know about your life but my focus is mostly on other plant material. Cannabis is at the bottom of the list at this point in my life. Been there, done that kinda of thing and am moving on to much more challenging hobbies.


I don't give two shits about arguing a fracking thing. That said I appreciate your posts and I was wondering if you ever tried this method on a clone with alternating nodes, because that is what I did and I like how it looks. It might not be perfect but the the strain is Kaya Gold as I am told and I would very much like to keep this going. I am not botanist, but l am scholar of hard nocks and I enjoy learning so waste your time on me I will be happy to be checked or told i am progressing. I do all kinds of shit to my tomatoes and peppers just to see what happens I love growing anything and now I am going all in on Organic, or as much as l can.


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## Soulkipper (Sep 15, 2014)

budman111 said:


> What?! the 2 cola method can be created by topping at any time in veg or early flower, best to top just above the 2nd none to get 4 colas. WTF is "pinching above the first"?!


did you just cry? 
pretty sure that was someone crying.
there was 0 relevance to the question in that answer..


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## MuckyDucky (Sep 17, 2014)

MuckyDucky said:


> Uncle Ben, You have said that thinnng the large fan leaves will only hurt your total harvest. I topped 3 plants in a 2x4' area and they are filling up the tent. They are already 30" tall, have only been flowering for 7 days and look like below. Is this too thick? Would thinning be beneficial if you have a very thick canopy?
> View attachment 3232615


Thanks UB! After topping my 3 plants to 4 colas I took your advice and did not do any thinning. Here they are in day 35 of flower and the colas on the left are over 4.5 feet tall. They are covered in buds and still have 30 days or so to go!


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## Eazy1 (Sep 17, 2014)

Nice mucky ducky
How much veg time did u give them after u topped . . I'm definitely trying this next time in hydro . I'm doing mainlining now and veg time is killing me


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## MuckyDucky (Sep 17, 2014)

Eazy1 said:


> Nice mucky ducky
> How much veg time did u give them after u topped . . I'm definitely trying this next time in hydro . I'm doing mainlining now and veg time is killing me


I started flowering 1 week after topping. The plants in my hydro system grow super fast tho so your results may be different. I have outlined my current grow journal with the dates and photos from the first day.

*This is what they looked like when topped on Aug 5th:*
https://www.rollitup.org/t/cap-ebb-flow-using-the-lucas-formula-only-3-pots-with-400-watts.835089/page-2#post-10766056

*This is what they looked like on Aug 12th, in flower for 1 day:*
https://www.rollitup.org/t/cap-ebb-flow-using-the-lucas-formula-only-3-pots-with-400-watts.835089/page-3#post-10790465


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## Eazy1 (Sep 17, 2014)

Cool did u tie any main colas down on veg or just let it grow natural . Wow that is a quick system I thought my aeroponic was quick


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## MuckyDucky (Sep 17, 2014)

The quick growth really amazes me too. My first few grows were in soil and they seemed to take forever to get large enough to flower.. I think I remember vegging for 7 or 8 weeks sometimes and those plants never got over 3 feet tall.

No, I didn't have to tie down the colas at all, I just added the net to the top to hold up the colas after they were in flower.


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## Eazy1 (Sep 17, 2014)

Cool thanks man . 
I will just use yo yos to hold mine up . I was using soil for a long time too. So slow ! My aero system is quick aswell . I think where I have mainlined it's just a really long process . Can't wait to try uncle bens on my next grow . Thanks again


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 18, 2014)

MuckyDucky said:


> Thanks UB! After topping my 3 plants to 4 colas I took your advice and did not do any thinning. Here they are in day 35 of flower and the colas on the left are over 4.5 feet tall. They are covered in buds and still have 30 days or so to go!
> View attachment 3255598


Nice job!


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## Eazy1 (Sep 27, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice job!


Hi I have plants ready for topping . It clearly says to top above the second true node for this method . If your first true nodes are Runts can you just move up a set and top then remove your two lowest runt nodes . This still gives you 4 tops . What will the difference be . ?? Any ideas


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## Guitar Man (Sep 30, 2014)

This is my 4th mature grow using UB's topping technique. The only difference this time was that I decided to attempt an outdoor grow instead of my typical indoor regime. I live in the North, so I wasn't too sure how things would turn out. Well, I just cut this girl down and it's the best harvest I've had from 1 plant.

What is interesting about this plant is, the topping produced a total of 7 main colas. And I mean, main colas. These pictures show this fairly well, but I will take a picture of the stem structure that shows this. I also had one of the cola's split in two, which was a nice surprise.

I planted the germed seed the middle of May and I harvested yesterday. So, she endured about 4 and 1/2 months and performed great. What's interesting about this Strain, about 4 years ago my daughter gave me a seed from her bag weed. That year, I grew this Strain/seed (indoors) and she did herm on me, and I got about 20 seeds from that plant because she pollinated herself.

Since then, I have used those seeds from the hermed plant a couple of times with my indoor grow, and both times, those plants hermed on me as well, as the genetic is in the seed to throw out nanners/balls.

So, since this was my first outdoor grow I figured I would use the hermed seeds, and to my surprise, I didn't find 1 nanner/ball on this plant. I think this proves (in one sense), that the unnatural environment of growing MJ inside may induce enough stress to cause a Hermaphrodite seed to produce the unwanted affects, no matter how hard a grower attempts to avoid this dilemma.


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## papajohn (Sep 30, 2014)

ub lets say you get 4-5 days non stop rain in september,on the 6 day the weather is back to a sunny condition but your leaves are nt stretching does that mean Failure?


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## MuckyDucky (Sep 30, 2014)

Guitar Man said:


> This is my 4th mature grow using UB's topping technique. The only difference this time was that I decided to attempt an outdoor grow instead of my typical indoor regime. I live in the North, so I wasn't too sure how things would turn out. Well, I just cut this girl down and it's the best harvest I've had from 1 plant.
> 
> What is interesting about this plant is, the topping produced a total of 7 main colas. And I mean, main colas. These pictures show this fairly well, but I will take a picture of the stem structure that shows this. I also had one of the cola's split in two, which was a nice surprise.
> 
> ...


Looking good Guitar Man! I have 3 plants topped and growing right now, different varieties, almost ready to harvest and one of them made 4 colas, one made 5 colas and 1 has 8 but the 4 real mains are a few inches taller and larger. The extra colas grew out from the bottom of the original 4 colas..... must be the pheno and strain that makes some branch like that. All 3 plants were in hydro treated exactly the same way.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Sep 30, 2014)

Guitar Man said:


> This is my 4th mature grow using UB's topping technique. The only difference this time was that I decided to attempt an outdoor grow instead of my typical indoor regime. I live in the North, so I wasn't too sure how things would turn out. Well, I just cut this girl down and it's the best harvest I've had from 1 plant.
> 
> What is interesting about this plant is, the topping produced a total of 7 main colas. And I mean, main colas. These pictures show this fairly well, but I will take a picture of the stem structure that shows this. I also had one of the cola's split in two, which was a nice surprise.
> 
> ...


Nice job, great looking colas & plants. As you've proven, natural is best. 

Happy harvest,
Uncle Ben


----------



## Guitar Man (Oct 1, 2014)

chiefbootknocker said:


> Yep. All-in-all I think the plants are better if you just plain don't mess with them. All this voodoo with hacking on them for a specific response is hit-or-miss. Some plants will respond real nice to that method, and others not so much. I think you can even break that down to pheno-type as well.
> 
> 
> After trying this I fully believe what I've always said to myself when thinking of doing such things; "is that how the plant grows in nature"? If the answer is no then it's not the approach I'm taking.


I have grown MJ naturally, not topping or doing anything with the plant accept feeding and watering it.

Then I've done UB's method of topping and the yield and overall performance of the plant(s) is far beyond letting the plant just do it's thing.

CBK, this is science, not some bullshit idea that so many believe in growing cannabis. Show us your plants that do so much better (or the same) as plants that are topped correctly.


----------



## Guitar Man (Oct 1, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice job, great looking colas & plants. As you've proven, natural is best.
> 
> Happy harvest,
> Uncle Ben


Here are 2 pics showing the response of topping this particular strain. Interesting how this plant developed additional colas (7 total), and how the one cola split in two. The 2 small branches that came out of the bottom, I almost cut them off when the plant was small, but decided to leave them. The one side also split into two colas off of one branch, and they both produced some NICE buds! (Glad I didn't cut them off!)


----------



## Guitar Man (Oct 1, 2014)

For those considering this method, here is another picture of doing this on an indoor grow. I harvested this plant last March and she is a BEAUTY!!!


----------



## Uncle Ben (Oct 1, 2014)

Wow, impressive! I just love it when I see such nice, big healthy fan leaves like that before harvest.


----------



## budman111 (Oct 2, 2014)

Guitar Man said:


> For those considering this method, here is another picture of doing this on an indoor grow. I harvested this plant last March and she is a BEAUTY!!!


Nice, how many oz?


----------



## beans davis (Oct 2, 2014)

Tahoe OG Kush Clone x SFV OG kush....


----------



## Michiganja Meduana (Oct 7, 2014)

Here's a little Jack Herer to look at.

The last time I did this, one of the branches was a lot smaller than the others. What can i do to get a slow-poke to catch up? Would I put the short side towards the light, or would I leave it on the shady side of the plant, hoping that it will stretch?


----------



## Jame789 (Oct 8, 2014)

Can't see the pictures for some reason. Can someone PM them to me? (OP)


----------



## Uncle Ben (Oct 10, 2014)

Michiganja Meduana said:


> Here's a little Jack Herer to look at.
> 
> The last time I did this, one of the branches was a lot smaller than the others. What can i do to get a slow-poke to catch up? Would I put the short side towards the light, or would I leave it on the shady side of the plant, hoping that it will stretch?


You just don't worry about it and give it good care.

UB


----------



## Michiganja Meduana (Oct 10, 2014)

Ok, I was just interested in knowing how, if there was something to know. Thank you.


----------



## robbah99 (Oct 29, 2014)

Since reading Uncle Bens thead a long time ago. I have never looked back. Me recommends this!


----------



## hemphopper (Oct 29, 2014)

robbah99 said:


> Since reading Uncle Bens thead a long time ago. I have never looked back. Me recommends this!


The technique that started this thread works. Attaching an image of 3 plants in a 3X3 tent that were topped just above node 2. Picture is 3 weeks into 12 hr photoperiod. 5 gallon smart pots, Roots original soil and General Organics nutrients, 6ooW HPS. - first time I tried those juices and I am impressed.


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## MuckyDucky (Oct 29, 2014)

I've never looked back either. This is a photo of 3 different varieties growing in a 2x4' tent taken around 10/12. The 2 mostly indicas each had 4 strong stemmed beautiful colas and the one that was more sativa shot up 4 long thin colas with a bunch of smaller secondary colas. Trimming was a breeze with the indica doms and I ended up with some high quality stuff.


The one of the left had all the small colas. The one on the right had one cola accidently broken off.


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## Prairie Smoker (Oct 30, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> I was addressing your off the wall comment about leaving plants natural....trying to make a point which included my precious time of digging up photos of the topping process.
> 
> Don't know about your life but my focus is mostly on other plant material. Cannabis is at the bottom of the list at this point in my life. Been there, done that kinda of thing and am moving on to much more challenging hobbies.


Whats your new hobby?


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 30, 2014)

Greenhouse raised fruit tropicals, grafting.


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## primedevine (Oct 30, 2014)

Would this technique work well for me Uncle Ben? I am growing in a small grow cabinet (3 foot tall) with led and T5 lighting.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 31, 2014)

Has nothing to do with your set up. It's how you manage your plant after the topping that counts.


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## hemphopper (Oct 31, 2014)

Regarding grafting, which it sounds like is part of UB's current horticultural adventures, I remember somewhere reading about somebody grafting hops scions on to cannabis plants or vice versa and trying to get hops plants to produce THC and thus be some kind of stealth grow. I'm old but I do remember reading about that somewhere - is it even possible??


----------



## Big Perm (Oct 31, 2014)

hemphopper said:


> Regarding grafting, which it sounds like is part of UB's current horticultural adventures, I remember somewhere reading about somebody grafting hops scions on to cannabis plants or vice versa and trying to get hops plants to produce THC and thus be some kind of stealth grow. I'm old but I do remember reading about that somewhere - is it even possible??


It is possible to graft a plant onto another plant. However, the grafted plant will not take on any of the characteristics of the plant it is attached to. For example, an orange tree grafted to an apple tree will not produce a new kind of apple/orange hybrid, it will simply produce apples and oranges.

Edit: Just to clarify. The apple/orange tree scenario will not produce a mix of the fruit all over the tree. The part of the tree that is the apple tree will produce apples, the grafted orange branch will produce oranges. The grafted orange branch becomes a parasite on the apple tree, and continues to grow from nutrients & water it gets from the apple tree. If there was any confusion.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Oct 31, 2014)

Big Perm said:


> It is possible to graft a plant onto another plant. However, the grafted plant will not take on any of the characteristics of the plant it is attached to. For example, an orange tree grafted to an apple tree will not produce a new kind of apple/orange hybrid, it will simply produce apples and oranges.
> 
> Edit: Just to clarify. The apple/orange tree scenario will not produce a mix of the fruit all over the tree. The part of the tree that is the apple tree will produce apples, the grafted orange branch will produce oranges. The grafted orange branch becomes a parasite on the apple tree, and continues to grow from nutrients & water it gets from the apple tree. If there was any confusion.


Speaking of apples and oranges, apples and citrus is not compatible since they are in different families. Heck, I tried for 2 years to get 6 different avocado varieties, scions, to take to a complex hybrid and never did succeed. Finally gave up and cut the SOB back to the rootstock for grafting this spring. Sometimes a match just aint gonna happen.

We had a discussion of grafting cannabis on hops. Search option is your friend.  You graft perennials, not annuals.


----------



## Big Perm (Oct 31, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Speaking of apples and oranges, apples and citrus is not compatible since they are in different families. Heck, I tried for 2 years to get 6 different avocado varieties, scions, to take to a complex hybrid and never did succeed. Finally gave up and cut the SOB back to the rootstock for grafting this spring. Sometimes a match just aint gonna happen.
> 
> We had a discussion of grafting cannabis on hops. Search option is your friend.  You graft perennials, not annuals.


Good catch, lol. I overlooked it, and should have used an orange/ lemon example.


----------



## nickelz419 (Nov 8, 2014)

how well would cutting above first nodes having two colas grow for a week or two then top them getting four?.................................could one just choose any two nodes and trim the rest off and have the same ho moan distribution?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 8, 2014)

You can top as many times as you want. You need to understand the output though.


----------



## nickelz419 (Nov 8, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> You can top as many times as you want. You need to understand the output though.


i know you can top as many times. im trying to find out if your tek. is tweaked like i said above would have the same outcome. since im guessing you have done both i would like to know what happened so i can go ahead and try that or just follow you exactly. i am between 1-2 weeks in with 11 seeds.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 9, 2014)

nickelz419 said:


> i know you can top as many times. im trying to find out if your tek. is tweaked like i said above would have the same outcome. since im guessing you have done both i would like to know what happened so i can go ahead and try that or just follow you exactly. i am between 1-2 weeks in with 11 seeds.


What exactly are your trying to accomplish?

If you top above the first node and then top above the first node on that output then you might get your 4 colas. And then again you might not.

If you want 4 main colas then top above the 2nd node and be done with it.


----------



## nickelz419 (Nov 9, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> What exactly are your trying to accomplish?
> 
> If you top above the first node and then top above the first node on that output then you might get your 4 colas. And then again you might not.
> 
> If you want 4 main colas then top above the 2nd node and be done with it.


cool... thank you. I have a couple more concerns. to my understanding you veg for about 4-5 weeks under 600 hps the whole way. wasnt sure if you didnt mention or i didnt remember what size pots you use and also how many do you fit under the 600 and what sq. ft. is that? im trying to follow what you do. last questions! probably. thanks again. awsome thread. i even like your smart ass remarks.... i just got done with an experiment of 12-12 from seed vert grow and wasnt too happy with the results... although im sure its cause i had too many plants and couldnt hit the ACTs and what not down pat. also started a second batch like a month after the initial wich made everything even more complicated. so now i just want to deal with less plants so i can take better care of them.


----------



## nickelz419 (Nov 11, 2014)

whats a good average veg time for this tek?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 11, 2014)

Veg time is your call. This might help:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/spin-out-for-chemical-root-pruning.9114/


----------



## catfishclyde (Nov 16, 2014)

Does this topping method to get 4 main colas also work on auto's?


----------



## papajohn (Nov 20, 2014)

ub are there any other slow release brands that fits the bill with dolomite like the 18-4-9 your'e using??


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 20, 2014)

papajohn said:


> ub are there any other slow release brands that fits the bill with dolomite like the 18-4-9 your'e using??


Have you checked with a nursery or Home Depot? They sell lots of them.


----------



## papajohn (Nov 20, 2014)

my vendor has one with mg in it,but i already have dolomite lime.

commercial nursery for it.

Thanks UB


----------



## budman111 (Nov 22, 2014)

catfishclyde said:


> Does this topping method to get 4 main colas also work on auto's?


Apparently not.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 23, 2014)

If the auto's go into alternate phytolaxxy, no, that is not what we're trying to accomplish here. They must be in opposing phytolaxxy mode.


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## hemphopper (Nov 25, 2014)

Sorry to jump in but just want to say that the topping technique upon which this forum is based works as we all know. I'm including a pic of 3 AK48's after 7 weeks of flowering. " Sea of bush" pretty much describes things. Next time I'll do only 2 plants. Best purchase for me has been a moisture meter - helps me avoid over watering and it was about 10 bucks. Roots Organic soil works good for me and the General Organics fertilizers, new for me with this grow seem very good. I'm noticing that the fan leaves are not dropping off so I'm getting the benefit of their stored carbs I believe.


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## papajohn (Nov 25, 2014)

ub i found these at a nursery http://www.haifa-group.com/products/plant_nutrition/controlled_release_fertilizers/products_for_nurseries/multicote_12_14_7_14_2mg_micronutrients.aspx

http://www.haifa-group.com/products/plant_nutrition/controlled_release_fertilizers/products_for_nurseries/multicote_12_20_5_12_micronutrients.aspx

would the mg & sulfur create nutrient antagonism with dolomite lime added??guys at the nursery said NO,whats your take??


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 26, 2014)

Looks like a damn good blend. I'd go for it.


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## JimmyIndica (Dec 17, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> That's about the <cough>, size of it LOL.
> 
> Hmmmmmm, for some reason you're not understanding how the plant responds. I'll try again. Being that there are two leafsets at each node during veg, and there are dormant foliar buds in the axils of where the petiole attaches to the "trunk", then each node = 2 foliar outputs WHEN THE AUXINS ARE TRICKED INTO BEING REDISTRIBUTED TO THOSE SITES.  IOW, when you cut above the 2nd node, you'll get 4 outputs - 2 from the first node and 2 from the second. It's when you get above 3 or 4 that it becomes iffy regarding the outcome. You'll find the typical forum advice for topping is around the 7th node. Why, I don't know.
> 
> ...


I like the way your plants frame looks! Every plant I grow I shoot to make it look that way also! I find it gets maximum yield for most varieties!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 21, 2014)

Post showing topping for outdoor plants and final outcome. https://www.rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/page-126#post-11165538


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## Mt Doo (Dec 22, 2014)

Hey I'm about to switch my grow up and I'm wondering would anyone recommend this topping technique for a 5x5 area or a 4x8 area? I'm growing big plants and I was wondering what would fit the space better. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Rollitup mobile app


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 23, 2014)

Area or footprint doesn't matter except how you wish to plan your garden. Experiment....

4 cola scaffold branching:

http://rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/page-128#post-11170543


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## churchhaze (Dec 23, 2014)

Can someone please explain that technique where you cut the top?


Thanks.


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## chuck estevez (Dec 23, 2014)

churchhaze said:


> Can someone please explain that technique where you cut the top?
> 
> 
> Thanks.


pretend you're a deer and just bite the top of the plant off.


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## Mt Doo (Dec 23, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Area or footprint doesn't matter except how you wish to plan your garden. Experiment....
> 
> 4 cola scaffold branching:
> 
> http://rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/page-128#post-11170543


Thanks ub that's exactly the info I needed to see.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Rollitup mobile app


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## FRANMACHINE (Dec 27, 2014)

Can you fix the photos? I cannot see them!


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## a senile fungus (Dec 27, 2014)

FRANMACHINE said:


> Can you fix the photos? I cannot see them!


Just look back a couple of pages...


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## FRANMACHINE (Dec 28, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy!
> 
> Based on quite a few questions about topping I've received here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a-12.html I decided to reproduce a thread on my favorite topping method published at cann.com about 10 years ago. Even though I've got much better photos from many latter grows both indoor and outdoor, I'm gonna stick with the old photos from the original thread. Lighting is HPS from start to finish with the exception of using 4' long shop fluors from germ until about 2 weeks. Some pix were taken outdoors for better resolution thanks to an old camcorder I was using.
> *Selecting the point for topping to get 4 main colas* -
> ...


My plant was sprouting it's 7th node. I had cut it on it's third. Was it the right thing to do? I felt like cutting it on the second node was too much cause the stem was too thick! Need your help uncle ben!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 28, 2014)

FRANMACHINE said:


> My plant was sprouting it's 7th node. I had cut it on it's third. Was it the right thing to do? I felt like cutting it on the second node was too much cause the stem was too thick! Need your help uncle ben!


Go back to the first post. You need to read and understand the plant processes, the hormonal responses, then you'll have your answer.

"Hey Dad, how do you spell contradictory?"

"Look it up in the dictionary son."


----------



## Mt Doo (Dec 28, 2014)

FRANMACHINE said:


> My plant was sprouting it's 7th node. I had cut it on it's third. Was it the right thing to do? I felt like cutting it on the second node was too much cause the stem was too thick! Need your help uncle ben!


Here you go. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Rollitup mobile app


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## FRANMACHINE (Dec 28, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Go back to the first post. You need to read and understand the plant processes, the hormonal responses, then you'll have your answer.
> 
> "Hey Dad, how do you spell contradictory?"
> 
> "Look it up in the dictionary son."


Got it!!! Looking forward to see how this goes!! Thanks!


----------



## longdongjohnson (Dec 29, 2014)

Hey UB, Are you still using that Harrell's CR Fert? 18-4-9.

Also a big woot.com fan!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 30, 2014)

longdongjohnson said:


> Hey UB, Are you still using that Harrell's CR Fert? 18-4-9.
> 
> Also a big woot.com fan!


Yep


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## longdongjohnson (Jan 1, 2015)

Nice. I started using osmocote on one of my plants and regular feed on the rest. The others were doing better, but it think I will just add a little more osmocote to the pot. The plant did look really healthy! I like the plain water every time. Does it get any better? Probably gonna hit all the pots with them this round and see how they do. Do you ever hit them with a light mix of nutrients or do you find it unnecessary?


----------



## Red1966 (Jan 1, 2015)

UB, you been around here for like forever. Have you ever used Peterson's dry fertilizers?


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## lilroach (Jan 1, 2015)

I know he likes Jacks (J R Peterson). I use it also as do many old-time growers. It's so easy to use it feels like cheating. I use 1/2 tsp per gallon of water right from the tap. Feel free to surf my grow journals to see the results.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 1, 2015)

Happy NY folks!

Been recommending Jack's as long as there has been the internet. This is the best bang for the buck not only for the ultra low price and great quality but for the NPK ratio and micro mix. 5-1-3 ratio is excellent. http://www.amazon.com/77900-Performance-Fertilizer-25-5-15-25-Pound/dp/B008JSIKCU/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_1

Osmocote, Nutricote, Polyon, Dynamite - doesn't get any easier but like anything else you can under or overshoot. When I grow outdoors i scratch in about a TB into the top of the soil, drop a 2 gph emitter into the pot, drop the pot into a 3" deep hole in the ground and let mama nature do the rest. I end up with a solid mass of roots that looks like this. Soil was blasted away for your viewing pleasure.  And kiddies, notice the popcorn buds in spite of full sun morning til night? 




easy peasy.......


----------



## bellcore (Jan 1, 2015)

If I top twice and don't super crop, monster crop, LST, or SCROG am I missing out huge potential? (2) plants in 2x2x5 250w HID.


----------



## apeshot (Jan 2, 2015)

Uncle Ben I was wondering if I could please have some advice, if possible.

I have a White Widow plant that is branching by itself, above the 3rd node. It's about 5 weeks old and grown from seed.

Do you think it would be best to let nature run it's course on this rather than top above the second node to get 4 colas? I know you will probably give me an answer to the effect that it is dependent on what I am trying to achieve, but in this case I am not quite sure what I want to achieve (apart from perhaps "maximum yield").

Any advice is appreciated.


----------



## lilroach (Jan 2, 2015)

I've compared UB's topping to un-topped plants numerous times and UB's topping always yields better.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 2, 2015)

apeshot said:


> Uncle Ben I was wondering if I could please have some advice, if possible.
> 
> I have a White Widow plant that is branching by itself, above the 3rd node. It's about 5 weeks old and grown from seed.
> 
> ...


If you don't where you're going, any road will take you there. 

Let it go, LET IT GO!


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 2, 2015)

Couldn't resist.  Top and see for yourself.


----------



## JimmyIndica (Jan 2, 2015)

Uncle ben I been following and I like the way you roll man!


----------



## apeshot (Jan 2, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Couldn't resist.  Top and see for yourself.


Thanks, I'll give it a go!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 5, 2015)

lilroach said:


> I've compared UB's topping to un-topped plants numerous times and UB's topping always yields better.


Do you find that you have to veg the plants any longer after topping them than you otherwise would if left un-topped to achieve this better yield? I run a perpetual garden so I have no wiggle room to veg my plants any longer.


----------



## lilroach (Jan 5, 2015)

Yes, it'll add about 10-14 days of veg time. You just have to adjust your timing to allow for it.....any topping in veg will add time though.


----------



## longdongjohnson (Jan 6, 2015)

@Uncle Ben
When you put your pots in the ground, do you cut the bottom off? Or do you just let the roots go straight through the drain holes into the soil?


----------



## longdongjohnson (Jan 6, 2015)

Saw u on the defoliation thread. Looks like u just put the pots in there as is. That is genius. Gonna give that a go this upcoming year. Thanks UB.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 6, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Do you find that you have to veg the plants any longer after topping them than you otherwise would if left un-topped to achieve this better yield? I run a perpetual garden so I have no wiggle room to veg my plants any longer.


It might "set back" my plants a day. My seedlings grow so fast that many times they're beginning to push foliage from the nodes anyway by the time they reach 4-6 nodes. Topping them just speeds up that push. Indoors I veg for no more than 3.5-4 weeks from the time they pop the soil's surface. If I was to go any longer I'd have 6' trees instead of the usual 42".

Here's an example of the old original images that I HAD on page one, post one. This was 3 days after topping. The older leafsets were still juvenile with 3 leaves per leafset.


----------



## terestrialextra (Jan 8, 2015)

Hi uncle ben , and i appologise for the off topic but i would like to ask you a question . Could you please share with us your say top 10 favourite strains (coupled with the breeder of each) ? Some insight to cut threw the thousands of strains that are around and to something of the finest quality that you trust? Thank you

I would also like to express to you my gratitude for the knowledge and the way of thinking about the subject of cultivation


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 8, 2015)

terestrialextra said:


> Hi uncle ben , and i appologise for the off topic but i would like to ask you a question . Could you please share with us your say top 10 favourite strains (coupled with the breeder of each) ? Some insight to cut threw the thousands of strains that are around and to something of the finest quality that you trust? Thank you
> 
> I would also like to express to you my gratitude for the knowledge and the way of thinking about the subject of cultivation


I like anything from the old Wernard Positronics stuff, Sagamartha and Flying Dutchmen.


----------



## terestrialextra (Jan 9, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> I like anything from the old Wernard Positronics stuff, Sagamartha and Flying Dutchmen.


And a note about Jack herer ? Any good representatives today ? It seems there is no Positronics one (like your avatar), only crosses.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 9, 2015)

Google Postronics, theres a history on it and Wernard, the sellout to Spaniards, etc.


----------



## papajohn (Jan 13, 2015)

Greetings UB!


----------



## Vnsmkr (Jan 17, 2015)

Jeez man, I followed the instructions and EVERY cannabis plant I have grown I have done this to and it works. How can so many people fail to follow a simple instruction is beyond me. Happy growing whatever it is you're growing


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 18, 2015)

Vnsmkr said:


> Jeez man, I followed the instructions and EVERY cannabis plant I have grown I have done this to and it works. How can so many people fail to follow a simple instruction is beyond me. Happy growing whatever it is you're growing


They can't count? Blame it on the new math.

Howdy papajohn!


----------



## JimmyIndica (Jan 18, 2015)

Been using this technique forever. Its the only way I do it! 2-4-6 just depends on which strain are growing faster than the others to determine how many cones they get! To me its all predetermined strain by strain This is one of the better thread going on this site. new growers should follow uncle bens advice! double or triple your yield folks! These are the only type threads I follow on here! Most the garbage is people tryin to sell shit for there own personal gain! Honey Bananas, Strawberry Banana,Purple Og 18, Tru Berry, Gummy Bears Under KIND K5 750. Some have Most gonna have 4 cones, 1 of the Honey Bananas is gonna have 6. Its a Beast! Gonna take couple cuttings from that one!.


----------



## papajohn (Jan 22, 2015)

UB how do i go about setting up a small indoor grow room?

What do i need? any of your tutorial links>?

OH BTW how do you crack down on cut worms?

Thanks pal....


----------



## Eflo (Jan 23, 2015)

@


born2killspam said:


> I think UB really only uses screens in pipes and windows..
> Not that you couldn't string 4 tops through a screen if you're dead set on doing so, but this method usually works out to be pretty light efficient without a screen..


Hey just wondering what strains have you done this method with? Have you done a OG strain with this? How was the outcome?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 23, 2015)

papajohn said:


> UB how do i go about setting up a small indoor grow room?
> 
> What do i need? any of your tutorial links>?
> 
> ...


If I told you, I'd have to kill you. 

I used 1X4 supports, stapled large cardboard panels on them, painted them with 3 coats of thinned Behr's Ultra White gloss latex, and using pipes hanging on nails and chains attached to the pipes hung HID's at any height I wanted. One wall was stationary as was the front panel braced against the side walls and the panels were moved in or out according to the garden's footprint. I could set it up and take it down in minutes. Bottom of 5' H side panels were 16" above the floor with a window fan blowing into the garden at pot level, 9" clip on fan just below open hoods blowing the hot air off the garden tops. Easy peasy, cheap, but VERY effective. Plastic floor was painted white.





Thuricide or any BT product for caterpillar control.

My method is not strain dependent. It will work on anything cannabis.


----------



## papajohn (Jan 27, 2015)

folks make their grow room setup sound so "techy" i like the crappy effective look.

can't seem to find a BT product that has systemic properties,any help??

http://www.amazon.com/DIPEL-PRO-Biological-insecticide-POUND/dp/B005DFFIDG

found these though,did u germinate your seedlings in such big pots??


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2015)

Those are only 1 gal. pots.

You can buy BT in small containers. It is not a systemic. If you want a systemic then buy Adonis 75WP off ebay. A little goes a lonnnnnnnnnnnnngggg way.


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## REALSTYLES (Jan 29, 2015)

Yo Uncle I went diy led now

veg


bloom


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## budman111 (Jan 31, 2015)

REALSTYLES said:


> Yo Uncle I went diy led now
> 
> veg
> View attachment 3341752
> ...


Why is bloom brighter?


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## REALSTYLES (Feb 2, 2015)

budman111 said:


> Why is bloom brighter?


I don't know lol. They are both bright 

Sent from my SM-G900P using Rollitup mobile app


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## papajohn (Feb 3, 2015)

UB i already have adonis 75wp in my toolkit,should that be enough for caterpiller control???


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 4, 2015)

papajohn said:


> UB i already have adonis 75wp in my toolkit,should that be enough for caterpiller control???


Read the label.


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## borbor (Feb 5, 2015)

could you use this topping method on a human embryo in utero to get conjoined twins?


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## coopersheldon (Feb 5, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy!
> 
> Based on quite a few questions about topping I've received here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a-12.html I decided to reproduce a thread on my favorite topping method published at cann.com about 10 years ago. Even though I've got much better photos from many latter grows both indoor and outdoor, I'm gonna stick with the old photos from the original thread. Lighting is HPS from start to finish with the exception of using 4' long shop fluors from germ until about 2 weeks. Some pix were taken outdoors for better resolution thanks to an old camcorder I was using.
> *Selecting the point for topping to get 4 main colas* -
> ...



can you re-up the photos please


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 5, 2015)

coopersheldon said:


> can you re-up the photos please


Like I've said in previous posts, no I can't. Only potroast can do that and he doesn't accept emails. Go back about 10 pages or so. I have posted many examples.


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## CannabisTherapySolutions (Feb 9, 2015)

Topping is the one of best things you can do to get more sideways growth from your plant along with LST. everyone has their preferred method and one isn't really better over another.


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## Soulkipper (Feb 13, 2015)

UncleBen,
How do you successfully force a plant to hermi?


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 13, 2015)

i think bad genetics or week females hermi easily wile strong good ones very had to get them to..i have a nl i tryed light dep, ph fluc, leaving in flower way past done, cant get a herm..i guess im going to need coildal silver cause this plant will just not herm..wile my berry bomb hermed just by taking it out of light for 2 days, put it back and had floweras in a week..


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 13, 2015)

hey ben, do u think a light leak in flowering is a good way to get herms?? ive had a couple plants herm from a light leak, that i did purposely, left a led flashlight on under the plants for about a week, worked for a few strains, not all. im guessing the ones it does not work on are my strong,good genetic fems right? i wonder if the ones that do herm that easily, probably not good to use their pollen as the seeds produced would herm easily too corect?


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 13, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Like I've said in previous posts, no I can't. Only potroast can do that and he doesn't accept emails. Go back about 10 pages or so. I have posted many examples.


just went back annd read the first 10 pages then jumped here, im just started topping recently, why does it seem topped plants dont stretch like untopped plants in flower? and if i use ur tec topping to get 2 tops at the 2nd node wen do i top, wile still in veg? shouldnt it have time to heal itself before flower? and will those 2 tops stretch like an untopped plant will once in flower? i guess i seem to like untopping for that stretch reason, i can put a plant w only 1 week of veg after rooting into flower at say 6 inches tall and end up w a 3 ft plant with many branches,,if i can top it at the 2nd node, give it a weeek of veg, and end up with 2-4 3 ft colas im sold!!


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2015)

Soulkipper said:


> UncleBen,
> How do you successfully force a plant to hermi?


Feed it Advanced Nutrients.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2015)

Topped plants still stretch. They just don't get as tall as a single cola plant would.


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## Soulkipper (Feb 16, 2015)

lol


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## Sativied (Feb 16, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Topped plants still stretch.  They just don't get as tall as a single cola plant would.


In total, the actually branches actually do elongate more when topped because you remove the top where the most grow inhibiting auxins are produced. Kind of the whole point obviously, but this is why it's imo important to veg for at least a few days or a week to let it rebalance instead of switching to 12/12 straight after topping else it won't just elongate but actually stretch unnecessary. Might be just perception on my fast vegging hydro setup


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## Lucifder (Feb 16, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy!
> 
> Based on quite a few questions about topping I've received here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a-12.html I decided to reproduce a thread on my favorite topping method published at cann.com about 10 years ago. Even though I've got much better photos from many latter grows both indoor and outdoor, I'm gonna stick with the old photos from the original thread. Lighting is HPS from start to finish with the exception of using 4' long shop fluors from germ until about 2 weeks. Some pix were taken outdoors for better resolution thanks to an old camcorder I was using.
> *Selecting the point for topping to get 4 main colas* -
> ...


Hey ben i know this is kinda of far back but i would appreciate some help. I topped my skunk haze for two mains but i dont want any side branching just wondering how i would just keep single colas.


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 16, 2015)

Sativied said:


> In total, the actually branches actually do elongate more when topped because you remove the top where the most grow inhibiting auxins are produced. Kind of the whole point obviously, but this is why it's imo important to veg for at least a few days or a week to let it rebalance instead of switching to 12/12 straight after topping else it won't just elongate but actually stretch unnecessary. Might be just perception on my fast vegging hydro setup


hey satieved, sorry i havnt posted lately,. i wanted to get ur opinion on topping for my room as uve seen it..insted of topping and lsting. should i do like ben said in page 1 or 2, wait till my clones have 6 or more nodes and then cut it down at the 2nd node so there is only 4 branches?? if so, i have 4 weeks till they go to flower so if i make that cut next week those bottom 4 branches will have 3 weeks of veg to recover before they go in bloom..or w so many plants in my area shouls i cut it at the 1st node and get 2 branches per plant?..i stopped posting pics as this gro has been fd up by the lemon kush, they have stretched so bad there is a foot between nodes and they have overgrown all the other plants,,i added a mh to try and slow stretch w/ no success, i had to bend the tops of all the lemon kush and 1 top even snapped off..ill put up pics in a few days but its a mess!! other than that the other strains are producing multiple colas..


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## Sativied (Feb 16, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> insted of topping and lsting. should i do like ben said in page 1 or 2, wait till my clones have 6 or more nodes and then cut it down at the 2nd node so there is only 4 branches??


It comes down to the same thing, except that with the first you use some wire to spread them out, keep'm low at first. Some people use tomato cages or w/e to keep the bud together, I use wire to pull some branches apart initially, help it a little to spread it's colas uniform. If you time UBs method properly that sort happens automatically. As for how many branches, see your thread (I think we discussed it there) about plant count and bud site / cola count. I think 4 should be doable, if not I would use less plants. There's no law against using 3 though... (or picking the best 4 branches from the first 6 instead of just first 4). 



TheChemist77 said:


> will have 3 weeks of veg to recover before they go in bloom


That's way too long in your setup with your plant count. Hard to say in advanced but in your case I'd go for 5-10 days max (after topping it).


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 17, 2015)

Sativied said:


> It comes down to the same thing, except that with the first you use some wire to spread them out, keep'm low at first. Some people use tomato cages or w/e to keep the bud together, I use wire to pull some branches apart initially, help it a little to spread it's colas uniform. If you time UBs method properly that sort happens automatically. As for how many branches, see your thread (I think we discussed it there) about plant count and bud site / cola count. I think 4 should be doable, if not I would use less plants. There's no law against using 3 though... (or picking the best 4 branches from the first 6 instead of just first 4).
> 
> That's way too long in your setup with your plant count. Hard to say in advanced but in your case I'd go for 5-10 days max (after topping it).


thanks satieved


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 18, 2015)

Lucifder said:


> Hey ben i know this is kinda of far back but i would appreciate some help. I topped my skunk haze for two mains but i dont want any side branching just wondering how i would just keep single colas.


Not sure why you would want to do that but if you must just prune the side branches back with hand pruners.


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## Lucifder (Feb 18, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Not sure why you would want to do that but if you must just prune the side branches back with hand pruners.


my grow space right now is small because im moving, maybe ill bend the branches straight down so they kind stay centered and then maybe pull em back a bit to give the brwches space and wont be all crammed


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## jkstraw79 (Feb 20, 2015)

Depending on your grow area, you can get more colas. I trimmed my White Widow to get 8 colas and it took about same time as a normal grow. I had limited space so I opted for trimming to get the colas in lieu of just letting her go.There's one more thick cola in back you can't see in this pic. ]


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## jkstraw79 (Feb 20, 2015)

Lower bud sites thicken. She has about 3 or so weeks to go from here and will take tops off and keep growing it out and let lower bud site finish. It has worked well for me in this small area. The bigger plants don't come till summer. She got a bit close to the lamps and the tips of fan leaves got crispy but they will be trimmed off.


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## Doer (Feb 21, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Like I've said in previous posts, no I can't. Only potroast can do that and he doesn't accept emails. Go back about 10 pages or so. I have posted many examples.


Yes, many photos have been lost. BTW<, send mail to rollie. Same guy.


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## dbdweller (Feb 21, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> just went back annd read the first 10 pages then jumped here, im just started topping recently, why does it seem topped plants dont stretch like untopped plants in flower? and if i use ur tec topping to get 2 tops at the 2nd node wen do i top, wile still in veg? shouldnt it have time to heal itself before flower? and will those 2 tops stretch like an untopped plant will once in flower? i guess i seem to like untopping for that stretch reason, i can put a plant w only 1 week of veg after rooting into flower at say 6 inches tall and end up w a 3 ft plant with many branches,,if i can top it at the 2nd node, give it a weeek of veg, and end up with 2-4 3 ft colas im sold!!



If you want your nobes to grow side by side, ALWAYS top at an ODD nobe. If you top on even then your nobes will grow like a ladder. one at a time.
I prefer to have them side by side. Some people would rather have the stack to make a longer bud. Although in my opion i would rather have the fater one then the thinner one. thin does dry faster lol


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## dbdweller (Feb 21, 2015)

The title is getting colas and topping. I did not read in anyone's thread about the number of the nobe and if its odd or even.
I am a mainline/super cropper and more and that is 101. You want to stagger your colas you top on even and virsersa.
Just after reading 75% of this whole fucking thread lol no one said it. You can design it in so many ways by this rule of thumb.

So dont hate lol just trying to help people


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## elkamino (Feb 21, 2015)

dbdweller said:


> If you want your nobes to grow side by side, ALWAYS top at an ODD nobe. If you top on even then your nobes will grow like a ladder. one at a time.
> I prefer to have them side by side. Some people would rather have the stack to make a longer bud. Although in my opion i would rather have the fater one then the thinner one. thin does dry faster lol





dbdweller said:


> The title is getting colas and topping. I did not read in anyone's thread about the number of the nobe and if its odd or even.
> I am a mainline/super cropper and more and that is 101. You want to stagger your colas you top on even and virsersa.
> Just after reading 75% of this whole fucking thread lol no one said it. You can design it in so many ways by this rule of thumb.
> 
> So dont hate lol just trying to help people


Node, not nobe.


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## dbdweller (Feb 21, 2015)

lmao thanks its sat and we are smoking out i think i am lucky to even see these keys


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## tom slick (Feb 22, 2015)

UB I am brand new to this party and working on my first grow. I read the first 35 pages and realized 2 things.
1. all questions are answered in the first 3 pages
2. this thread has been going strong since 2009!!!
I have to thank you because I have been saved from a nightmare of other training attempts that were way to involved for a fat fingered nube such as myself. this is a KISS method that is perfect for a dude like me. right after this post I am heading to my closet to top my lil personal garden. 

My question is what do I do with the tops i cut off? are they thc empty and trash or should they be saved and added to trimmings to create other buzz worthy products (canna butter or hash etc)


Thanx


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## a senile fungus (Feb 23, 2015)

tom slick said:


> UB I am brand new to this party and working on my first grow. I read the first 35 pages and realized 2 things.
> 1. all questions are answered in the first 3 pages
> 2. this thread has been going strong since 2009!!!
> I have to thank you because I have been saved from a nightmare of other training attempts that were way to involved for a fat fingered nube such as myself. this is a KISS method that is perfect for a dude like me. right after this post I am heading to my closet to top my lil personal garden.
> ...



Stick them in a cup of water, change water weekly, and after a couple weeks they'll start throwing out roots. Then plant your new plant in medium and repeat!

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Rollitup mobile app


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## tom slick (Feb 23, 2015)

Awesome thought!!! unfortunately I have no room or need for perpetual grow. it's for personal medical use so i only want to grow what i need, not gonna clone just yet. And already juggling enough balls just trying to make sure the ones I have are strong as a first time grower. Just didn't want to be wasteful. Thanx though


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## Sativied (Feb 26, 2015)

Doer said:


> Yes, many photos have been lost. BTW<, send mail to rollie. Same guy.


Yeah... like all my albums and most pics in previous journal... Admin didn't add the albums add on after moving to xenforo.

I don't really care about those but don't get what so hard to edit in a few pics in the first post of a sticky, surely a global mod can edit those in.

@Uncle Ben, pretty sure I've seen you repost the original images, if you can point that one out, or repost, maybe we can simply report the post with a request to a global mod.


Just finished my first zero-canopy-control run. Doing a round of topping next, just for fun, not a real comparison or test. Added advantage is that I got 30+ plants around the same height and same number of branches again (despite not popping them all on the same day). Topped many plants before, but never so low and never with less than 8 branches.

This is roughly 16 hours after topping. Currently 6 branches (actually 8 in pic but chopped the bottom two), will bring it down to 4 probably, not sure how many plants I will flower yet. Probably 9 plants with 4 colas = 36, 6x6 colas fits nicely in a 4x4' space.


Took a lot of before, during, and after pics, should have a complete set in about 10 weeks.


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## a senile fungus (Mar 1, 2015)

Here's a couple pics of plants topped for 4 tops. 





Another.



Another.



This one had a rough transplant a few days ago and the first set of leaves yellowed and shriveled so I cut that first set of leaves off.

They were all topped about 24 hours ago and are already noticeably responding.

Edit: not sure why the two repeat pics below???


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 1, 2015)

Looking good!


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## papajohn (Mar 1, 2015)

Whoa sah! u da man UB


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## TheChemist77 (Mar 1, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> Here's a couple pics of plants topped for 4 tops.
> 
> View attachment 3362057
> 
> ...


how tall was she before the cut? how many nodes were there before? also how much veg time will u give her now(after cut) before flip? im thinking of doing this with a couple of my plants, but need to know after the cut how long she needs to recover befor the flip and end up around 2 and 1/2 or 3 feet tall.. my last batch i topped and lsted, didnt stretch much in flower and that was after a month of veg, almost 3 weeks after topped...i want to top, but also want them to stretch to about 3 feet.. running skunk1,criticalmass, and northern lights..


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 2, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> how tall was she before the cut? how many nodes were there before? also how much veg time will u give her now(after cut) before flip? im thinking of doing this with a couple of my plants, but need to know after the cut how long she needs to recover befor the flip and end up around 2 and 1/2 or 3 feet tall.. my last batch i topped and lsted, didnt stretch much in flower and that was after a month of veg, almost 3 weeks after topped...i want to top, but also want them to stretch to about 3 feet.. running skunk1,criticalmass, and northern lights..


No one can answer that, it's your call, your garden. When they get to a certain size and profile you'll know what to do.


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## a senile fungus (Mar 2, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> how tall was she before the cut? how many nodes were there before? also how much veg time will u give her now(after cut) before flip?


 They ranged from 4 to 8 inches tall before the cut, maybe 4 or 5 individual, opposing nodes, plus the growing tip. I shaved off a couple nodes and put them in water to root them. 

Now they will be vegged till they grow big enough to top and take more clones, then they'll probably be put outside when the weather turns.





> im thinking of doing this with a couple of my plants, but need to know after the cut how long she needs to recover befor the flip and end up around 2 and 1/2 or 3 feet tall.. my last batch i topped and lsted, didnt stretch much in flower and that was after a month of veg, almost 3 weeks after topped...i want to top, but also want them to stretch to about 3 feet.. running skunk1,criticalmass, and northern lights..


As Uncle Ben said, no one can really tell you when to flip and how long to veg for. Those are things you get a feel for once you've witnessed the full life cycle of the plant a couple of times.

This kind of topping, for 2 or 4 tops, is kind of extreme, IMO, and should be done early, unless you know what you're doing etc The kind of topping where you just snip the growing tips (apical meristems) can really be done whenever. As I said, you'll get a feel for the response you'll witness once you've done it a few times.

So I topped these when they were small and those secondary branches were just starting to show. Now they'll grow nice and symmetrical. 

This choice of where/when to top is nice because its done early and one cut and over with.

It sounds like you'll want to veg to around 20" with the critical mass then flip it, I dunno bout the other strains. The more topping and LST, the less stretch. All depending on technique/genetics of course. See that's the thing, it's hard to say one way or the other because the circumstances vary so much.

I'll post pics in a couple days so you can see the difference.

So will Sativied I'm sure.


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## propertyoftheUS (Mar 2, 2015)

UB, have you ever tried your thumb at growing indoor or outdoor papaver somniferums? Just wanted to pick your brain a bit about temps, RH, fert strength, lighting schedules....
Thx for any info brotha!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 3, 2015)

propertyoftheUS said:


> UB, have you ever tried your thumb at growing indoor or outdoor papaver somniferums? Just wanted to pick your brain a bit about temps, RH, fert strength, lighting schedules....
> Thx for any info brotha!


Nope. Have no interest in opium or the trade.


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## Sativied (Mar 4, 2015)

Untopped (couple of days younger too)
  

Topped 
  

That last one is probably a male, picked a taller one on purpose as it shows the difference better. I got about 30 more topped at slightly varying age (won't be flowering them all, about half is male and some won't make the selection).


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## a senile fungus (Mar 4, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> Here's a couple pics of plants topped for 4 tops.
> 
> View attachment 3362057
> 
> ...


Can't remember or be bothered to figure out which is which. Here they are lol.









All looking great since the topping. 4 new mains growing symmetrically just like I wanted!


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## propertyoftheUS (Mar 5, 2015)

Sativied said:


> Untopped (couple of days younger too)
> View attachment 3364839 View attachment 3364837
> 
> Topped
> ...


What kind of light to do you have those babies basking in? Really uniform canopy!!! Kudos bro


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## a senile fungus (Mar 5, 2015)

propertyoftheUS said:


> What kind of light to do you have those babies basking in? Really uniform canopy!!! Kudos bro



IIRC, he's using a MH at the moment, maybe 400w.

He's upgrading some of those lights soon though!


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## Sativied (Mar 5, 2015)

propertyoftheUS said:


> What kind of light to do you have those babies basking in? Really uniform canopy!!! Kudos bro


Philips 400w HPI-T Plus, which is an MH indeed, and has an output similar to the phillips elite agro 315w cmh bulbs. The 315w is actually a little better. And thanks, quite happy with the uniformity so far. Should be able to remove a few males soon to give them some space during transition.


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## papajohn (Mar 12, 2015)

UB can you recommend a A.I that is safe for spraying on edibles to control leaf cutting ants they are defoliating my fruit trees.i normally use fipronil bait with good results,however rainfall is imminent in my area right now.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 12, 2015)

Pyrethrin with a surfactant.


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## SnotNazi (Mar 12, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> That means that it is the least likely node to receive redirected ho moans. I'm also trying to explain plant hormonal responses - the ones at the top receive hormones that induce output the first. Top a plant, any kind of a plant, and it will induce dormant bud output starting with the top down.
> 
> By allowing the plant to get a good start, which occurs with some leaf material from say......6 nodes (opposing leafsets) as opposed to 2, you're just giving it a better jump-start. You can use the cutting as a clone.
> 
> ...





Uncle Ben said:


> That means that it is the least likely node to receive redirected ho moans. I'm also trying to explain plant hormonal responses - the ones at the top receive hormones that induce output the first. Top a plant, any kind of a plant, and it will induce dormant bud output starting with the top down.
> 
> By allowing the plant to get a good start, which occurs with some leaf material from say......6 nodes (opposing leafsets) as opposed to 2, you're just giving it a better jump-start. You can use the cutting as a clone.
> 
> ...


   
Just wondering if this is kinda what you're talking about. The above picture - it's the plant on the left - I topped around the 4th node but saw immediately it didn't work. You can see at the bottom of the close up that there are two separate chutes with buds but they didn't do more than that. . . . . .


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## papajohn (Mar 12, 2015)

Thanks boss.


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## tom slick (Mar 13, 2015)

UB. First time grower with real issue. I am quickly outgrowing my space. I have 3 plants who vegged for 6 weeks (wanted to take time and I topped later than I Wil next time ) vertical we can double but it's so bushy everything is everywhere. This is week one of flower so I lowered temp to 70 to minimize stretch (maybe) I have added a 2nd circle fan it's black 6 in desk fan and u can barley see it in the pic. 2 of the 3 took well to top ing above 2nd node and have 4 coLas the other has 2 cola. I know it's not a bad problem as a first attemp from seed , but i am afraid of mold and contact issues. Help


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## tom slick (Mar 13, 2015)

View attachment 3370967 View attachment 3370967 View attachment 3370968 UB. First time grower with real issue. I am quickly outgrowing my space. I have 3 plants who vegged for 6 weeks (wanted to take time and I topped later than I Wil next time ) vertical we can double but it's so bushy everything is everywhere and contacting walls and plants . This is week one of flower so I lowered temp to 70 to minimize stretch (maybe) I have added a 2nd circle fan it's black 6 in desk fan and u can barley see it in the pic. 2 of the 3 took well to top ing above 2nd node and have 4 coLas the other has 2 cola. I know it's not a bad problem as a first attemp from seed , but i am afraid of mold and contact issues. Help. Can I trim lower branches 

3 plants nirvana white castel. 1 400 watt mh/hps setup air cooled 6 in inline fan space is 2 ft by 3.5 ft by 5 ft grown in coca Loco with go pro organic go box nutes


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 13, 2015)

tom slick said:


> View attachment 3370967 View attachment 3370967 View attachment 3370968 UB. First time grower with real issue. I am quickly outgrowing my space. I have 3 plants who vegged for 6 weeks (wanted to take time and I topped later than I Wil next time ) vertical we can double but it's so bushy everything is everywhere and contacting walls and plants . This is week one of flower so I lowered temp to 70 to minimize stretch (maybe) I have added a 2nd circle fan it's black 6 in desk fan and u can barley see it in the pic. 2 of the 3 took well to top ing above 2nd node and have 4 coLas the other has 2 cola. I know it's not a bad problem as a first attemp from seed , but i am afraid of mold and contact issues. Help. Can I trim lower branches
> 
> 3 plants nirvana white castel. 1 400 watt mh/hps setup air cooled 6 in inline fan space is 2 ft by 3.5 ft by 5 ft grown in coca Loco with go pro organic go box nutes


High P foods induce stretch. Don't worry about the crowding as long as you have good air movement and a good exchange of room air. If I had to guess you're using a tent which I would never do or did. I use moveable reflecting panels to preclude the outward expanding footprint you're stuck with now.



SnotNazi said:


> View attachment 3370688 View attachment 3370689 View attachment 3370690
> Just wondering if this is kinda what you're talking about. The above picture - it's the plant on the left - I topped around the 4th node but saw immediately it didn't work. You can see at the bottom of the close up that there are two separate chutes with buds but they didn't do more than that. . . . . .


No, that's not it. I/we have posted many photos. Start about 10 pages back and work your way up.

Good luck folks!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 13, 2015)

papajohn said:


> Thanks boss.


Check out bienfrin. Don't believe it's used on trees but rather as a mound drench. Also very effective for mound control and what I use on acreage is Extinguish Plus. It's a bait. We have an epidemic of Fire ants, the ants from hell. I kick up the mound to piss 'em off, sprinkle about a TBSP. of bait around, they get pissed take it down into the mound whereby the queen and her princesses are nailed.


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## tom slick (Mar 13, 2015)

Sorry. Last 2 pics anD I'll await your reply. Than


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## tom slick (Mar 13, 2015)

not a tent. Small closet so really thought I'd kill one by now and 2 would be fine. Lol I geuss I forgot it's a weed and will grow. Plenty of air move when lights on. Will start to keep a small circulator fan on at lights out. Thanx. Ps. It's a 12 week flower which is why I'm concerned


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 13, 2015)

SnotNazi said:


> View attachment 3370688 View attachment 3370689 View attachment 3370690
> Just wondering if this is kinda what you're talking about. The above picture - it's the plant on the left - I topped around the 4th node but saw immediately it didn't work. You can see at the bottom of the close up that there are two separate chutes with buds but they didn't do more than that. . . . . .


IT LOOKS LIKE YOU TOPPED IT AFTER THE FIRST NODE INSTEAD OF PINCHING IT?


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## tom slick (Mar 13, 2015)

I know I counted a small set of nodes with regular leaves as node 1 and a full sized as node 2 completely discounting the lil round leaves. Was questioning that myself but to late to cry now just need to make it worth the time and investment and learn for next one


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 13, 2015)

tom slick said:


> I know I counted a small set of nodes with regular leaves as node 1 and a full sized as node 2 completely discounting the lil round leaves. Was questioning that myself but to late to cry now just need to make it worth the time and investment and learn for next one


I think you are still confused. Dont cut at all until there is 6-8 nodes then just cut above the 6-7 node. What you are doing is forcing the auxins to the lower branches so they grow out instead of up. You need side branches. you essentially just grew one top. If you are reading Uncle Bens directions on page 1 it nooks like you read wrong an cut where you were supposed to pinch. You will only be left with the amount of nodes under where you top. Do you follow me? Are you doing a SCROG? what kind of space are you growing in? Just trying to help for next time. It looks like you grew a healthy plant. I bet you would kick ass on your next grow!


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## tom slick (Mar 13, 2015)

400 hps/mh with 6 in exhaust 4 gallon pots cocA loco mediu . I am in a smal closet with fungicide paont and panda film to crate reflective sur face and 2 circ fand . I had 7 nodes (symetricly opposing sets of branches) when I cut Above what I thought was the 2nd node it was a long veg period. I cut off then immediately pinched the nub to stop the bleeding if u will. The 2nd node branches responded well and went straight up. The first nodes turned up and grew vigorously. The nodes off what I thought was the new coLas grew long branches above large fan leaves. Some growing additional growth points off the branches, Off the possible coLas. I read the first 30 pages of post and feel I followed pretty good. It's just bushy as hell!!! But all criticism is welcome as I am learning and I have read novels of threads to get equip order to proper care of plants and have found many consistency with what I have attempted. Just not smashed in a 2 by 3.5 by 5 ft space lol


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## tom slick (Mar 13, 2015)

Please excuse spelling I am on a mobile phone


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 13, 2015)

tom slick said:


> 400 hps/mh with 6 in exhaust 4 gallon pots cocA loco mediu . I am in a smal closet with fungicide paont and panda film to crate reflective sur face and 2 circ fand . I had 7 nodes (symetricly opposing sets of branches) when I cut Above what I thought was the 2nd node it was a long veg period. I cut off then immediately pinched the nub to stop the bleeding if u will. The 2nd node branches responded well and went straight up. The first nodes turned up and grew vigorously. The nodes off what I thought was the new coLas grew long branches above large fan leaves. Some growing additional growth points off the branches, Off the possible coLas. I read the first 30 pages of post and feel I followed pretty good. It's just bushy as hell!!! But all criticism is welcome as I am learning and I have read novels of threads to get equip order to proper care of plants and have found many consistency with what I have attempted. Just not smashed in a 2 by 3.5 by 5 ft space lol


you are very confused. when he says to pich he does not mean cut then pinch to stop bleeding. he means pinch the stem to damage the tissue a bit. it will then have a bulge at the base where you pinched it after it repairs itself. this strengthens the main stem where you pinch because it gets thick.. let it grow and cut above the 6-7 node. You will only be cutting a tiny piece off. Do NOT cut at the second node only pinch? I think I have to draw you a diagram. You really need to understand this if you plan on having a grow with any type of good yields.


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## tom slick (Mar 13, 2015)

*From page one of the post


Selecting the point for topping to get 4 main colas* - 

To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node. The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count.


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 13, 2015)

tom slick said:


> *From page one of the post
> 
> Selecting the point for topping to get 4 main colas* -
> 
> To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node. The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count.


Listen I am not going to argue with you about it. You are doing it wrong as you can see in your pics. If all you want is a top then just keep doing what you're doing and you will keep getting the same results. I dont know why he wrote cut 2nd node! Here is a pic of my plants. notice where I topped once then I topped again on the two new shoots a couple weeks later. This is how you plant should look! Just forget anything about the second node. cut it @ 6-7 node. I wish someone else would chime in. I see where it says cut but that makes no sense because the plant will never grow more nodes from the main stem above where you top it. You should have left those nodes you cut. If you want help I will be glad to. Its obvious that you are not doing it correct. I would never top below the 6th node.


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## Mt Doo (Mar 13, 2015)

OldSoul777 said:


> Listen I am not going to argue with you about it. You are doing it wrong as you can see in your pics. If all you want is a top then just keep doing what you're doing and you will keep getting the same results. I dont know why he wrote cut 2nd node! Here is a pic of my plants. notice where I topped once then I topped again on the two new shoots a couple weeks later. This is how you plant should look! Just forget anything about the second node. cut it @ 6-7 node. I wish someone else would chime in. I see where it says cut but that makes no sense because the plant will never grow more nodes from the main stem above where you top it. You should have left those nodes you cut. If you want help I will be glad to. Its obvious that you are not doing it correct. I would never top below the 6th node.


Dude sorry but your doing it wrong you have to remove everything above the second node for 4 tops. You wait till it has 6 tops to ensure the root system is in good enough shape for the topping. No way you have 4 nodes if you cut Above the 6 node that would mean you have 6 nodes and 12 tops but not 12 dominate tops unless you stripped everything below the 2 top nodes i.e removing 4 nodes.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Rollitup mobile app


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 13, 2015)

Mt Doo said:


> Dude sorry but your doing it wrong you have to remove everything above the second node for 4 tops. You wait till it has 6 tops to ensure the root system is in good enough shape for the topping. No way you have 4 nodes if you cut Above the 6 node that would mean you have 6 nodes and 12 tops but not 12 dominate tops unless you stripped everything below the 2 top nodes i.e removing 4 nodes.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Rollitup mobile app


i guess if you want 4 tops and nothing else. Not sure why you would want to do that. the tips of buds are the most potent. huge buds are more at risk for mold and take longer to dry out. I have never heard of this method. When I saw for tops i am thinking its those along with the rest of the plant. 4 main colas but with the rest of the plant. If I am wrong I apologize. He has no pics to look at to see what he is talking about. Why do you only want to grow tops opposed to a SOG or SCROG??


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## bellcore (Mar 13, 2015)

I don't SOG or SCROG but I like to have four large colas. Easier on the trimming too.


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## Mt Doo (Mar 13, 2015)

OldSoul777 said:


> i guess if you want 4 tops and nothing else. Not sure why you would want to do that. the tips of buds are the most potent. huge buds are more at risk for mold and take longer to dry out. I have never heard of this method. When I saw for tops i am thinking its those along with the rest of the plant. 4 main colas but with the rest of the plant. If I am wrong I apologize. He has no pics to look at to see what he is talking about. Why do you only want to grow tops opposed to a SOG or SCROG??


It's is 4 tops along with the rest of the plant but topping it this way gives you 4 main colas. It opens the plant up allowing for easier canopy maintenance and a even canopy with less work plus better airflow because the plant is opened up more. You still get other bud sites but they spring up off of those 4 main long colas. It's pretty interesting you should try it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Rollitup mobile app


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 13, 2015)

Mt Doo said:


> It's is 4 tops along with the rest of the plant but topping it this way gives you 4 main colas. It opens the plant up allowing for easier canopy maintenance and a even canopy with less work plus better airflow because the plant is opened up more. You still get other bud sites but they spring up off of those 4 main long colas. It's pretty interesting you should try it.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Rollitup mobile app


I would love to see some pics! they werent showing in the thread. I topped twice. once after the 6th node and again on the two would be colas that split from there now two more will split after I topped those two for 4 main cola with the other nodes below it that I never cut. do you have any pics? Not sure I would want to try it. curing is trickier with big buds like that.


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## Mt Doo (Mar 13, 2015)

The photos I have are not a good example lol I have 4 plants in a 10 gallon tote I topped to though for 4 main colas. I'll see if I can find a better picture.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Rollitup mobile app


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## Mt Doo (Mar 13, 2015)

These are not my photos but they are from this post

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Rollitup mobile app


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 13, 2015)

Mt Doo said:


> These are not my photos but they are from this post
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Rollitup mobile app


the first pic doesnt look like the second plant. That looks way drastic. I would never cut in the middle of a branch no matter the technique. That type of growing is not for me. I will stick with a SCROG and topping twice. I get killer yields this way but thanks for the pics and info! Maybe I'll try it one day when my real estate isn't so precious!


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 13, 2015)

Mt Doo said:


> The photos I have are not a good example lol I have 4 plants in a 10 gallon tote I topped to though for 4 main colas. I'll see if I can find a better picture.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Rollitup mobile app


That looks a lot better!


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## Mt Doo (Mar 13, 2015)

OldSoul777 said:


> That looks a lot better!


Sorry lol the first one is my personal setup, the one with the 4 thick branches are uncle bens the op the other one is someone's else's on the forum.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Rollitup mobile app


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## tom slick (Mar 13, 2015)

Idk figure 4 beefy coals r easier than small bud all over, or i was going to "mainline ". I was gonna Scrog But Uncle Bens thread (which is an awesome thread) seemed to be saying this gets similar results with less messing around. It kind of turned into a SOG on accident. so I am trying to see what works for me and my space, this is my first ever attempt so have nothing but the Internet to compare it to. Thanx again


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 13, 2015)

tom slick said:


> Idk figure 4 beefy coals r easier than small bud all over, or i was going to "mainline ". I was gonna Scrog But Uncle Bens thread (which is an awesome thread) seemed to be saying this gets similar results with less messing around. It kind of turned into a SOG on accident. so I am trying to see what works for me and my space, this is my first ever attempt so have nothing but the Internet to compare it to. Thanx again


I suppose it would be easier.


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## papajohn (Mar 13, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Check out bienfrin. Don't believe it's used on trees but rather as a mound drench. Also very effective for mound control and what I use on acreage is Extinguish Plus. It's a bait. We have an epidemic of Fire ants, the ants from hell. I kick up the mound to piss 'em off, sprinkle about a TBSP. of bait around, they get pissed take it down into the mound whereby the queen and her princesses are nailed.


biefrin works good for mounds but it's not labeled for edibles.OH BTW how was your harvest of grapes?did mother nature kick your ass


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 13, 2015)

papajohn said:


> biefrin works good for mounds but it's not labeled for edibles.OH BTW how was your harvest of grapes?did mother nature kick your ass


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 13, 2015)

papajohn said:


> biefrin works good for mounds but it's not labeled for edibles.OH BTW how was your harvest of grapes?did mother nature kick your ass


Sorry to but in. Is that the short name Biefrin? is this the same shit?


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## papajohn (Mar 13, 2015)

OldSoul777 said:


> Sorry to but in. Is that the short name Biefrin? is this the same shit?


Yes it is.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 14, 2015)

OldSoul777 said:


> Sorry to but in. Is that the short name Biefrin? is this the same shit?


Bienfrin is the active ingredient and name of a product. Look up Talstar too.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 14, 2015)

papajohn said:


> biefrin works good for mounds but it's not labeled for edibles.OH BTW how was your harvest of grapes?did mother nature kick your ass


Harvest was in August and was excellent.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 14, 2015)

OldSoul777 said:


> the first pic doesnt look like the second plant.


That's because it was after harvest, posted to show the scaffold branches.

YOU need to go back and find some photos. There's plenty of them.


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 14, 2015)

any good for spider mites?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2015)

Nope, it's not a miticide. FWIW, I've been miss-spelling it. It's BIFENTHRIN.


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 15, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nope, it's not a miticide. FWIW, I've been miss-spelling it. It's BIFENTHRIN.


lol all good, thats why I asked if it was the same shit. Wonder why the mites didn't die when I used it. I thought maybe the shit was expired or something,lol


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## propertyoftheUS (Mar 21, 2015)

UB, have u ever seen two sets of nodes grow out like this? First time for me!! Yeah they have powdery mildew and moisture stress, shit happens when u work outta town for 2 weeks at a time!!


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 21, 2015)

it happens. I have one now that is growing 4 fan leafs from each node.


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## bellcore (Mar 22, 2015)

I have one now that is growing 3 fan leafs from each node.


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## Sativied (Mar 22, 2015)

bellcore said:


> I have one now that is growing 3 fan leafs from each node. View attachment 3377625


Nice.... tricot and whorled phyllotaxy and slender leaflets... I'm jelly.


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## Sativied (Mar 22, 2015)

Sativied said:


> Untopped (couple of days younger too)
> View attachment 3364839 View attachment 3364837
> 
> Topped
> ...


Two weeks later, after roughly 10 days transition, the tallest and the shortest.


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 22, 2015)

4 from same node


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## Sativied (Mar 22, 2015)

OldSoul777 said:


> 4 from same node


Nice, looking very healthy too.

  

I prefer the tri whorled (main trait I breed for), ideal for topping. Topping after 2 tri nodes creates 6 nicely spaced non-overlapping branches/bud sites/colas. Each successive node is turned 60degrees as is already apparent in @bellcore's tri.

I've grown a lot of whorled phyllotaxy plants over the past year+ and done a lot of research into it (journaled at a more serious forum) and can actually induce the whorling in some of my crosses/lines (all based on a frosty quad male) by topping it or simply bending the main stem a la LST. The trait is as result of a mutated gene that causes a different auxin <-> cytokinin balance and auxin concentrations. Mine however don't start out as a tricot but as normal dicots and then start whorling around the 4th node or even later.

Tricots, those that start out with 3 cotyledons / seed leaves, are not always plants with inheritable whorled phyllotaxy but an inevitable result of being a tricot. This is described by Hofmeister’s rule: an empirical heuristic derived from the observation that new leaf primordia are formed in the largest space between the existing flanks of the older primordia. That's also why that second node of a tri is rotated exactly 60 degrees, and why on a regular decussate each successive node is rotated 90 degrees.


The new primordia, leaves in this case, start at a position where most auxins are accumulated and concentrated, or better said, least are used.

 
 A. alternating (mature cannabis)
B. regular opposite decussate
C. (tri) Whorled phyllotaxy (in case of cannabis, other species it's tricussate)
D. Spiral (similar to whorled but alternating, i.e. not all nodes on same level, mature whorled becomes spiral)

Point is, when you top, you heavily influence the same hormone balance and you can get abnormal node placement without actually have a mutant.

"Using a combined pharmacological and genetics approach we demonstrated that regular spacing of organs is controlled by auxin and its transporter PIN1 (Reinhardt 2000, 2003)."
http://www.botany.unibe.ch/deve/research/projects/reinhardt.htm


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## OldSoul777 (Mar 22, 2015)

Sativied said:


> Nice, looking very healthy too.
> 
> View attachment 3377764 View attachment 3377765 View attachment 3377769
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info! Good stuff! This one didnt start like that but started happening around the third node and seems to only be happening on the adjacent node. Just found out today its a girl! It is just showing preflowers . I guess I will clone it in case its any good. Its nirvana free seeds that came with an order. they grow like crap compared to what you pay for. I will prob get rid of most and put some better clones in their spot.


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## bellcore (Mar 22, 2015)

I topped the my tricot yesterday I hope I didn't screw it up too bad. I topped it at the second node but....severed one of leaves on the second node.


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## propertyoftheUS (Mar 22, 2015)

So was I right to top it at the quad leaf node? Like I said its the first I've seen of this. The strain is the greatest closet strain ever. Tightest node spacing I've ever seen with absolutely no stretch. My avatar is this strain flowered from clone.


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## propertyoftheUS (Mar 22, 2015)

So was I right to top it at the quad leaf node? Like I said its the first I've seen of this. The strain is the greatest closet strain ever. Tightest node spacing I've ever seen with absolutely no stretch. My avatar is this strain flowered from clone.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 23, 2015)

bellcore said:


> I have one now that is growing 3 fan leafs from each node. View attachment 3377625


Do you mean you have one that has 3 leaves per leafset on its petiole growing from a node?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 23, 2015)

propertyoftheUS said:


> So was I right to top it at the quad leaf node? Like I said its the first I've seen of this. The strain is the greatest closet strain ever. Tightest node spacing I've ever seen with absolutely no stretch. My avatar is this strain flowered from clone.


That's not my method but you can top however you want. Just expect a different response.


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## bellcore (Mar 23, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Do you mean you have one that has 3 leaves per leafset on its petiole growing from a node?


Three 'branches' per node...starting from the three seed leaves.


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## papajohn (Apr 8, 2015)

Ub how many months do you get of your slow release in your area?


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 8, 2015)

10


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## johne0d (May 3, 2015)

Hello , If this is answered I appologize for not reading all the pages.Last time I topped Uncle Ben's method(wich is the best for me) , instead of 4 coalas, i got 2 or three, and the 4th coalas, was a branch very small...wich didnt develop, My question is: If i get in VEG 3 good coalas and 1 small, can I cut the small coalas ? or just leave it...Thank you


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## Uncle Ben (May 3, 2015)

It's an issue of apical dominance. Don't worry about the smaller cola, let it be. Every leaf is feeding the entire plant process.


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## johne0d (May 8, 2015)

ok. Thank you.


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## Gratefulgrowin93 (May 17, 2015)

used this method before and tried fim and topping later on, and staking but nothing but this mainlining and scrog seem to give me truly bigger yield better aiflow and light distribution and cleaning lower part of plant where popcorn would form or PM would thrive if I spray ,water too often or overcrowd my little 4 x 4 tent. Love your method Uncle Ben! Much love and respect my brother!


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## tom slick (May 25, 2015)

First time grow 3 plants small. clo  set 400 wat hPs . This topping tech works and is eazy to get results from. Take it from a noob. Got 8 large colas and if I had gotten it perfect it would have been 12. Thanx uncle Ben


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## touchstone (May 27, 2015)

Would be nice if somebody could get the links fixed to the original photos. Anybody who clicks on this thread now reads a whole bunch of people talking about:








At the moment I have no idea what this thread is about and I would have to sift through 289 pages to find pictures that may not even exist anymore. This thread should be removed if those links aren't fixed.


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## budman111 (May 30, 2015)

touchstone said:


> At the moment I have no idea what this thread is about and I would have to sift through 289 pages


Basically in a nutshell you top just above the 2nd node to get 4 tops. 289 pages saved from reading!


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## dannyboy602 (May 30, 2015)




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## Budzbuddha (May 30, 2015)

I love UNCLE BEN's Rice .


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## budman111 (May 30, 2015)

Budzbuddha said:


> I love UNCLE BEN's Rice .


Didn't know you two were so close


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## MrRare (Jun 15, 2015)

Wow!
I believe this has got to be the longest thread I have ever read.
I have learned a lot by reading through the entire thread and must congratulate Uncle Ben for his years of experience , botanical knowledge and willingness to share. I am appaled at the lazy newbs that come in posting questions answered several times already and rather enjoyed the fact that Uncle Ben schooled several of them. The process is simple and straight forward to perform and the results are impressive. I have grown several thousand species of exotic plants over the last twenty five years but, cannabis is clearly one of my favorites!


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 16, 2015)

Thanks for the kind thoughts! Speaking of exotics, my new passion is grafting and growing tropical fruit trees in a large greenhouse. Cannabis is not the challenge it used to be. Not to sound crass, but how any one can screw up this plant really stumps me. Many do because they treat other than what it is - a sub-tropical weed.

You didn't really read the whole thread, did you?


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## MrRare (Jun 16, 2015)

Yes, Uncle Ben I read the whole thread. Despite the countless times people asked the same questions there were little gems of wisdom and experience riddled throughout. That and knowing that I would get to read about you schooling another newb to lazy to read or to stupid to comprehend a basic concept made it very entertaining. I am now off to read some of your other threads and see what additional pearls of wisdom I can pick up. Thanks again for your significant contribution to the cannabis community!


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## strainbank (Jun 24, 2015)

guys any reason why the images do not display? is it just me?


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 26, 2015)

strainbank said:


> guys any reason why the images do not display? is it just me?


They were dropped when Admin went to a new forum protocol.


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## strainbank (Jun 26, 2015)

@Uncle Ben thanks i was hoping it was not my computer bc i was experiencing issues viewing images on multiple posts.


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## testiclees (Jun 29, 2015)

Folks did i screw this up? This lil gal was topped about 10 days ago. The upper node is kicking out a sweet pair of stems but the lower node is barely responding? Any thoughts. Im not in a rush so I can veg her for a while.


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## simisimis (Jul 14, 2015)

testiclees said:


> Folks did i screw this up? This lil gal was topped about 10 days ago. The upper node is kicking out a sweet pair of stems but the lower node is barely responding? Any thoughts. Im not in a rush so I can veg her for a while.


Auxins got distributed unevenly and two tops got most of the attention. Next tim in early stages bend down the dominant ones so smaller would catch up


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## papajohn (Jul 15, 2015)

Hey ub where can I purchase a decent 'additional greening' granular blend with micros in NW Miami? 

25/50lb


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 16, 2015)

Gotta phone?


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## papajohn (Jul 16, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Gotta phone?


Yaa


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 16, 2015)

http://www.amazon.com/77900-Performance-Fertilizer-25-5-15-25-Pound/dp/B008JSIKCU/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_1


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## _SolSam_ (Jul 16, 2015)

I top only outdoor. As the plants stalks are stronger with natural forces. Indoor under 1000 watts stalks will need to be scroged or they shall tumble.


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## TimDog (Jul 19, 2015)

Will try this method soon. About to pop some seeds today. Uncle Ben is the bomb. You're invited to my family reunion anytime.


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## papajohn (Jul 27, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> http://www.amazon.com/77900-Performance-Fertilizer-25-5-15-25-Pound/dp/B008JSIKCU/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_1


Brought me some citrus feed as well.

Thanks ub


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## Gratefulgrowin93 (Jul 30, 2015)

done at just the right time, with the right strain in some nice soil you built 

equals big nuggets of headstash you won't want to part with  

love the results i got last run doing this if i still had pics i would post them 

but all in all thanks Uncle Ben! 

peace, love, and weed 
happy gardening RIU friends!


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## AnonymousNewb (Aug 8, 2015)

I wish there were pictures that worked


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## budman111 (Aug 8, 2015)

AnonymousNewb said:


> I wish there were pictures that worked


You dont need pics, have some blind faith and top above the 2nd node.


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## AnonymousNewb (Aug 8, 2015)

budman111 said:


> You dont need pics, have some blind faith and top above the 2nd node.


That's fine, please just explains cotelydon is? Is that he first tiny leaf art that pops out?
So 4-5 branches after that?


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## budman111 (Aug 8, 2015)

AnonymousNewb said:


> That's fine, please just explains cotelydon is? Is that he first tiny leaf art that pops out?
> So 4-5 branches after that?


cotelydon don't count, 2 nodes above that becomes tops.


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## EverythingsHazy (Aug 8, 2015)

AnonymousNewb said:


> I wish there were pictures that worked


It really is the simplest thing to do. You just count nodes from the bottom up. Ignore the cotyledon node, count to the second true node, and cut ABOVE it, but under the 3rd. So the 2nd node is now the top node of the plant. Since there are only two nodes (most likely 4 growth buds), and they are very close together, the growth buds should all start to grow out at a similar rate, causing 4 even tops. 

The cotyledons are the two first "leaves" that are roundish instead of having the typical blade shape of a cannabis leaf.


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## AnonymousNewb (Aug 9, 2015)

EverythingsHazy said:


> The cotyledons are the two first "leaves" that are roundish instead of having the typical blade shape of a cannabis leaf.


That answers my question, thank you. 

Next question: I will be cutting clones, that will get 2-3 weeks veg time max, and I will also be LSTing, is topping still worth it, as I would be cutting off 2-3 nodes?


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## simisimis (Aug 10, 2015)

It all depends on your room setup and what you want to get out of it. top it, lst it, take clones. 
as long as you have time to veg and have the exact idea of what you want your plant look at the harvest day


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## mr sunshine (Aug 10, 2015)




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## lilroach (Aug 10, 2015)

AnonymousNewb said:


> That answers my question, thank you.
> 
> Next question: I will be cutting clones, that will get 2-3 weeks veg time max, and I will also be LSTing, is topping still worth it, as I would be cutting off 2-3 nodes?


Two to three weeks veg time for clones.....I hope you don't have high expectations of yield.....say two joints.....maybe.


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## AnonymousNewb (Aug 10, 2015)

lilroach said:


> Two to three weeks veg time for clones.....I hope you don't have high expectations of yield.....say two joints.....maybe.


Just need an oz per plant, flowered under a 400 HPS


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## lilroach (Aug 11, 2015)

I wish you luck with that.


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## AnonymousNewb (Aug 11, 2015)

lilroach said:


> I wish you luck with that.



This is the first time I've gotten any feedback like this, everyone else has said it should be no problem


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## lilroach (Aug 11, 2015)

Last year I spent months attempting to grow one ounce plants.....like 75 of them...with a veg time of clones of 2-3 weeks.

I hope you do better than I did. I had 1000 watts and a light-mover to boot...along with 2 years of grow experience. I am not saying it can't be done.....I'm saying it's not easy.


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## AnonymousNewb (Aug 11, 2015)

lilroach said:


> Last year I spent months attempting to grow one ounce plants.....like 75 of them...with a veg time of clones of 2-3 weeks.
> 
> I hope you do better than I did. I had 1000 watts and a light-mover to boot...along with 2 years of grow experience. I am not saying it can't be done.....I'm saying it's not easy.



That's a big bummer. Guess we'll see how I do. Might have to change things up, but I gotta work with the space I got 


Also: it seems like after all your trial and error, you got it ironed out? If so, would you care to share your experience?


----------



## lilroach (Aug 12, 2015)

LOL....yeah....I veg for 8 weeks, and grow only 16 plants in flower.


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## budman111 (Aug 12, 2015)

AnonymousNewb said:


> Next question: I will be cutting clones, that will get 2-3 weeks veg time max, and I will also be LSTing, is topping still worth it, as I would be cutting off 2-3 nodes?


Topping will usually always be worth it indoors and why could it not be?


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## AnonymousNewb (Aug 12, 2015)

budman111 said:


> Topping will usually always be worth it indoors and why could it not be?



Almost seems like it would waste a lot of the 3 weeks veg, but Ima experiment on my first batch 

"Anonymous*Newb*"


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## budman111 (Aug 12, 2015)

AnonymousNewb said:


> Almost seems like it would waste a lot of the 3 weeks veg, but Ima experiment on my first batch
> 
> "Anonymous*Newb*"


I top as soon as i can physically do it to the plant after about 2 weeks from seed and only puts it back about a week.


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## AnonymousNewb (Aug 12, 2015)

budman111 said:


> I top as soon as i can physically do it to the plant after about 2 weeks from seed and only puts it back about a week.


Thanks for the info.


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## TimDog (Aug 12, 2015)

AnonymousNewb said:


> Thanks for the info.


Well I finally put my girls into flower. My first time using Uncle Ben's topping method. I cut my six papaya clones about three weeks ago. They truly don't miss a beat after their brief recovery period. I intend to flower under 12/12 for two weeks as usual. Then cut back to my 6-8 hrs of light that I picked up from Joe P. in skunk mag. I will let you all know how it works out. Keep smoking!!!


----------



## dequelo (Aug 17, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> http://www.amazon.com/77900-Performance-Fertilizer-25-5-15-25-Pound/dp/B008JSIKCU/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_1


cannot beat Jack's Classic, Scots really trashed Peters when they bought it

Nice to see you still kickin Uncle Ben

all the best and be safe

Dequilo


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## papajohn (Aug 31, 2015)

Ub I gave my perennials a fungicide treatment (eagle 20) in early summer however I've been stumped by necrotic leaves falling off after my first treatment.

Is that normal?


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## simisimis (Sep 1, 2015)

AFAIK RIU moderators banned UB from this site. So you might need to look for him elsewhere


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## Dr. Who (Sep 1, 2015)

simisimis said:


> AFAIK RIU moderators banned UB from this site. So you might need to look for him elsewhere


Again? 



TimDog said:


> Well I finally put my girls into flower. My first time using Uncle Ben's topping method. I cut my six papaya clones about three weeks ago. They truly don't miss a beat after their brief recovery period. I intend to flower under 12/12 for two weeks as usual. Then cut back to my 6-8 hrs of light that I picked up from Joe P. in skunk mag. I will let you all know how it works out. Keep smoking!!!


Your going to loose about 20% of your harvest yield with Joe P's low hrs lighting......Some of us here tried that already.....Not worth it ..

Doc


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## simisimis (Sep 1, 2015)

Well I remember him posting on another forum that he was banned from RIU. However I believe you're right, I think it was admin. For me they're all admins as long as they have more rights than reg user..


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## dequelo (Sep 1, 2015)

I have posted with Uncle Ben since the days of OverGrow he does have a way of getting under some folks skin

but he is a true grower for sure

I have been trying to find him to see how it is going for him but with no luck 

peace and be safe

Dequelo


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## TimDog (Sep 2, 2015)

What's up Dr.Who? I respect the fact that you have tried the less light method in flowering. I have tried it a couple harvests now. I have two tents and all I have noticed is a faster rate of growth, and a 40% decrease in my electric bill. Puff,puff,pass!!!


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## potroastV2 (Sep 5, 2015)

simisimis said:


> AFAIK RIU moderators banned UB from this site. So you might need to look for him elsewhere



Uncle Ben has not been banned, and as you can see, when you spread false rumors several of the whiners pounce on the chance to chime in.


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## UncleBuck (Sep 5, 2015)

rollitup said:


> Uncle Ben has not been banned


and my saturday was going so well.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 5, 2015)

dequelo said:


> I have posted with Uncle Ben since the days of OverGrow he does have a way of getting under some folks skin
> 
> but he is a true grower for sure
> 
> ...


"Not banned", crippled account, shit going on.... the spin stops here.

So this thread hit over 1 million hits, wow! Just another day in paradise.

Hi Dequelo, man it's been a long time. Howya been and where are you living? What are you up to?

I've been concentrating on many projects. For instance amateur winemakers just harvested a record for my small vineyard, 3,050 lbs. from 195 vines I allowed to yield. Unbelievable. Then there's tropical fruits I'm growing. Ate a mango this morning that came in at 26 brix!

You take care and unless my account is again crippled (for political reasons) feel free to PM me.

One of 8 varietals harvested, 425 lbs. of Merlot. Came in at 25 brix. Will be a fruit bomb.


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 5, 2015)

View attachment 3493676

View attachment 3493679


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## dequelo (Sep 5, 2015)

View attachment 3493672[/QUOTE]


Uncle Ben said:


> "Not banned", crippled account, shit going on.... the spin stops here.
> 
> So this thread hit over 1 million hits, wow! Just another day in paradise.
> 
> ...


Nice looking grape Uncle Ben  so you are making wine very nice check out HomeBrewTalk they have a great wine making section

I post there as Brew_ny I have been brewing beer for the last 2 1/2 years had a neighbor from hell move in behind me so I stopped growing for three years

I just dropped some seeds in some soilless a couple of days ago to get started again, still here in New York

I put up a couple 12 foot by 24 foot greenhouses three years ago to do all my eggplants, peppers and tomatoes I am getting ready to put up another one next month 

I am thinking of putting raised beds in it to do root crops, I was talking about you with Butcher Bob at Toke City two or three weeks ago

I am glad to see it is going good for you and your projects are working out for you

that is a huge harvest of grape from from a small vineyard

all the best my friend and I will drop you a PM for sure

Peace and be safe

Dequilo


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 6, 2015)

Hola Dequelo, been making wine since the 70's. Have about 12 gals. to bottle. Grape sales are to the best of the best - medical professionals, system analysts, engineers....classy folks. I charge by the pound and another 10 cents to crush/destem using a S/S 1 HP driven destemmer. What takes a couple 4 hours to process I get done in 45 seconds. Winemaker friends are winning awards. My 2011 Merlot is a fruit bomb of cherries and blackberries, made a fino sherry out of an Italian white grape last year.

Greenhouses, man we need to hook up at some kind of private account or forum. The first avocado only cost me $30,000.  You wouldn't believe what I'm doing which includes grafting the best of the best budwood sourced out of California. Am growing mangos, avocados, pineapples, sugar apple, herbs, all kinds of citrus and the usual stuff like winter tomatoes.



Butcher Bob, gawd how in the hell is that guy? Tell him "hey" for me.

Peace brother........


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## Dr. Who (Sep 8, 2015)

Drooling on the thought of the Merlot and the Sherry is calling for a primo cigar.....Damn Ben....
I gotta put in more grapes.....


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 9, 2015)

Dr. Who said:


> Drooling on the thought of the Merlot and the Sherry is calling for a primo cigar.....Damn Ben....
> I gotta put in more grapes.....


Putting them in is easy. Getting them to produce well is a challenge. Pests alone kick my ass but I am getting a handle on it. I net and in 2012 I didn't tie together the netting fast enough thinking there would be no critter pressure yet. Raccoons stole 1,200 lbs. in a few days. I expected 2,000 that year.


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## Dr. Who (Sep 9, 2015)

Damn coons are tuff on ours too.....shot 5 so far and we still get them

Sent from my SM-N910P using Rollitup mobile app


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## inventel (Sep 20, 2015)

9 plants in 3x3 with uncle ben topping and flip to 12/12 at16" , what do you think?

3 gal coco


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## questiondj42 (Oct 2, 2015)

dequelo said:


> I have posted with Uncle Ben since the days of OverGrow he does have a way of getting under some folks skin
> 
> but he is a true grower for sure
> 
> ...


I lurked on Overgrow forever. I often wonder what happened to a lot those folks.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 9, 2015)

questiondj42 said:


> I lurked on Overgrow forever. I often wonder what happened to a lot those folks.


I'm sure many are still around and Cervante's Bible has a lot of our methods and techniques.

IOW, same old monkeys just hanging on different branches.


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## tropicalcannabispatient (Oct 10, 2015)

i always ALWAYS. TOP a plant, but ALWAYS GET 2 tops. I GOT NOW A 2 WEEKS OLD, AND I TOP HER, AND IM AMAZED, BECAUSE IM GETTING 4 NEW TOPS GROWING, WHEN THIS IS THE FIRST TIME GETTING HER HEAD CHOPPED. I WAS EXPECTING 2 LIKE ALWAYS BUT I GOT 4. THAT ACTUALLY HAVE NEVER HAPPENED TO ME BEFORE. LOL. I JUST FEEL LIKE SHARING THAT. TOKE ON. =====~~~


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## budman111 (Oct 11, 2015)

tropicalcannabispatient said:


> i always ALWAYS. TOP a plant, but ALWAYS GET 2 tops. I GOT NOW A 2 WEEKS OLD, AND I TOP HER, AND IM AMAZED, BECAUSE IM GETTING 4 NEW TOPS GROWING, WHEN THIS IS THE FIRST TIME GETTING HER HEAD CHOPPED. I WAS EXPECTING 2 LIKE ALWAYS BUT I GOT 4. THAT ACTUALLY HAVE NEVER HAPPENED TO ME BEFORE. LOL. I JUST FEEL LIKE SHARING THAT. TOKE ON. =====~~~


sO dO i tOp AlL tHe tImE


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## tropicalcannabispatient (Oct 11, 2015)

budman111 said:


> sO dO i tOp AlL tHe tImE


But have u ever get 4 tops from only 1 top? I mean this is the first time that i top a plant and inted of getting 2 like normal im getting 4. Is this normal to other people? This has never happened at least to me only. And i always top my plants between top and lower branches like 10-15 times. Toke on. ====~~


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 11, 2015)

tropicalcannabispatient said:


> But have u ever get 4 tops from only 1 top? I mean this is the first time that i top a plant and inted of getting 2 like normal im getting 4. Is this normal to other people? This has never happened at least to me only. And i always top my plants between top and lower branches like 10-15 times. Toke on. ====~~


Its called science dude, happens everytime if you do in same spot......


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## tropicalcannabispatient (Oct 12, 2015)

Vnsmkr said:


> Its called science dude, happens everytime if you do in same spot......


I guess u dont understand what im trying to say


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## budman111 (Oct 12, 2015)

tropicalcannabispatient said:


> I guess u dont understand what im trying to say


Why dont you top the two tops that are above the other two and give the other tops time to catch up?


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## EverythingsHazy (Oct 12, 2015)

tropicalcannabispatient said:


> But have u ever get 4 tops from only 1 top? I mean this is the first time that i top a plant and inted of getting 2 like normal im getting 4. Is this normal to other people? This has never happened at least to me only. And i always top my plants between top and lower branches like 10-15 times. Toke on. ====~~


That happens when the two nodes under the cut you make are very close together. The lack of hormones being sent downwards from the top of the plant, will affect both of those nodes, due to thir proximity.


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## tropicalcannabispatient (Oct 12, 2015)

Vnsmkr said:


> Its called science dude, happens everytime if you do in same spot......


I guess u dont understand what im tring To say


EverythingsHazy said:


> That happens when the two nodes under the cut you make are very close together. The lack of hormones being sent downwards from the top of the plant, will affect both of those nodes, due to thir proximity.


. THAT MAKES SENSE!!!/ CHEERS BRO!!


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## tropicalcannabispatient (Oct 12, 2015)

budman111 said:


> Why dont you top the two tops that are above the other two and give the other tops time to catch up?


 i did


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 13, 2015)

Since someone requested it, here's a few pix of the response of seedlings after topping.





My cross of a Posi. Haze X Sensi Skunk day or so after topping above the 2nd node. Think this was April.



Upcanned. Notice how the lower trunk was stripped of petioles so the seedling could be planted as deep as possible. That produces more root mass.



June, about ready to be planted outdoors. 4 perfect, even colas.



July



August, 2 months before harvesting. Colas are so heavy that even staking/tieing doesn't help. They went sideways.


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## verticalgrow (Nov 9, 2015)

inventel said:


> 9 plants in 3x3 with uncle ben topping and flip to 12/12 at16" , what do you think?
> 
> 3 gal coco


about a pound!


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## avnewb (Nov 18, 2015)

What about topping late in the game. 2mo in about to flip. Would give a week or so after topping before flip. Things are obv big. I would like less popcorn.


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## Reroll (Nov 22, 2015)

I am having a very hard time determining which is the 2nd "true" node on my plant. Any tips appreciated.


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## Led79 (Nov 23, 2015)

Hi all - 1st post, last grow i used the "UB" method - worked a treat , sorry for pic overload, all topped above second node, explosive growth, 4 main colas - 470grams bone dry with a 600w, and my best prvious was about 8 oz! My environment aint the best as im in the loft but this method works wonders!
Im starting another grow using the same method, a question though.... Should i tie down the 4 main tops to encourage the lower growth this time round? Would it adversly affect the 4 main colas?

Eeez All!


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## St1kybudz (Nov 23, 2015)

Rofl imma post some pix of the plants I topped once and got 6 tops I might post a vid I might not it's hard to find the time with 2 little girls under the age of 2 but imma for sure post some pix the method I use is called fim and alot of people do not fully understand this technique


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## tom slick (Dec 3, 2015)

Uncle ben I thought i kissed yer ass enough first go around but i haven't come close.... last grow (first ever)I topped and it worked. However I stressed the crap out of the plants with heat and cold and light both duration and to close. Well they spit some seeds out at me. I saved a bunch, tried one and it grew funny. This son of a bitch grew 8 colas without topping, from a seed of one I topped for only 4 last grow!!!! Not sure if you have heard of this but I may be sitting on a small pile of awesome mutants!!! Can't wait to see how big they get. Thanx again


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 4, 2015)

tom slick said:


> Uncle ben I thought i kissed yer ass enough first go around but i haven't come close.... last grow (first ever)I topped and it worked. However I stressed the crap out of the plants with heat and cold and light both duration and to close. Well they spit some seeds out at me. I saved a bunch, tried one and it grew funny. This son of a bitch grew 8 colas without topping, from a seed of one I topped for only 4 last grow!!!! Not sure if you have heard of this but I may be sitting on a small pile of awesome mutants!!! Can't wait to see how big they get. Thanx again


It's been said by Mel Frank and confirmed by a friend (anecdotal evidence) that if a female throws just a few seeds from one of those "nanners" you never saw but happened any way, the chances of the progeny turning out female is very strong.

Never seen a mutant but I assume all your foliar output derived from a node site. If it did, that's normal output....it's just what cannabis does.


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## shonuff_305 (Dec 6, 2015)

Led79 said:


> Hi all - 1st post, last grow i used the "UB" method - worked a treat , sorry for pic overload, all topped above second node, explosive growth, 4 main colas - 470grams bone dry with a 600w, and my best prvious was about 8 oz! My environment aint the best as im in the loft but this method works wonders!
> Im starting another grow using the same method, a question though.... Should i tie down the 4 main tops to encourage the lower growth this time round? Would it adversly affect the 4 main colas?
> 
> Eeez All!


Hey did you chop off the whole top part of your plant.


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## shonuff_305 (Dec 6, 2015)

@Uncle Ben I'm new to the grow seen. And it was introduced to me about your method of topping. Str8 to the point is this right or wrong


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 6, 2015)

They look fine.


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## shonuff_305 (Dec 6, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> They look fine.


OK thanks. So with the cutting I have done how many main branches will I have or colas


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 7, 2015)

Check out R.C Clarke's book - MJ Botany. You need to understand cannabis anatomy. The "forecast" output will then be clear.


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## tom slick (Dec 9, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's been said by Mel Frank and confirmed by a friend (anecdotal evidence) that if a female throws just a few seeds from one of those "nanners" you never saw but happened any way, the chances of the progeny turning out female is very strong.
> 
> Never seen a mutant but I assume all your foliar output derived from a node site. If it did, that's normal output....it's just what cannabis does.


the top 2 pics are of the one I topped, the other grew just like that no training no topping. in fact it grew in so weird I almost pulled it at2 weeks. it was a bush before I pruned!!! i've never seen anything on this site like it!!!

ps I know you are not a fan of pruning but I am in such a confined space the bottom 3rd just struggles to be alive as the canopy chokes out the light. just switched to flower and so far they have the markings of female!!! just like u said



shonuff_305 said:


> Hey did you chop off the whole top part of your plant.


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## tom slick (Dec 9, 2015)

tom slick said:


> View attachment 3560700 View attachment 3560701 View attachment 3560698 View attachment 3560699
> 
> 
> the top 2 pics are of the one I topped, the other grew just like that no training no topping. in fact it grew in so weird I almost pulled it at2 weeks. it was a bush before I pruned!!! i've never seen anything on this site like it!!!
> ...


yes on the top pics I chopped the entire top after second TRUE node for 4 tops make sure to freeze it the top of the plant... I tossed it in a pot of coconut oil and water and boiled it with the waste leaves from my ice hash bags (2 washes) and I think it added cbd to my oil because of the antinflammatory effect of my edibles... waste not want not


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## DesertGrow89 (Dec 9, 2015)

Looks like you mutilated your plant. There aren't many leaves to be seen.


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## tom slick (Dec 10, 2015)

DesertGrow89 said:


> Looks like you mutilated your plant. There aren't many leaves to be seen.


There will be leaves, trust me on that. I'll send a pic closer to the end of flower it'll be a jungle in that little area with a canopy that completely blocks the light from getting to lower area. Helps air movement alot and worked very well last time got 8.5 oz dried all huge kolas


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## Sativied (Dec 10, 2015)

tom slick said:


> View attachment 3560700 View attachment 3560701 View attachment 3560698 View attachment 3560699


I'm sure UB appreciates such fine examples of his topping technique in this thread.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 20, 2015)

Sativied said:


> I'm sure UB appreciates such fine examples of his topping technique in this thread.


Yep, especially when some don't understand the value of leaves only forum herd mentality.


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## gazan114 (Dec 20, 2015)

Photos need to be updated


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 22, 2015)

gazan114 said:


> Photos need to be updated


Tell that to admin. Can't do a thing about it. 

Now, if you'll go back a page or two, you'll see a nice bunch of photos.


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## mr sunshine (Dec 26, 2015)

@UncleBuck


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## MonkeyGrinder (Dec 27, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> been making wine since the 70's. My 2011 Merlot is a fruit bomb of cherries and blackberries, made a fino sherry out of an Italian white grape last year.


Sorry for quoting an old post.
Do you actually sell and distribute your wines UB? If so I'd love to give em a try. I've been back on a wine kick here lately once again.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 27, 2015)

Don't sell my wines, only grapes, thanks for asking. 15 years ago Texas wines sucked. Now, they are incredible winning many blind tasting international awards in all styles.


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## MonkeyGrinder (Dec 30, 2015)

I'll keep a look out for some Texas labels then when I'm grabbing stuff.
Have you ever tried mead? It's been something I've gotten a taste for in the last few years. If you haven't I highly recommend picking up a bottle. You can find some commercial bottles at World Market stores and lots of wine stores are starting to carry them. They're decent. Now mix it with a decent port and it's nothing short of amazing. A french girl taught me that 
It's pretty easy to make though.


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## mr sunshine (Dec 30, 2015)

I topped once and got 7 main heads.


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## mr sunshine (Dec 30, 2015)

I'm not even joking.


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## Sativied (Dec 30, 2015)

mr sunshine said:


> I'm not even joking.


I bet they were all male though.


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## mr sunshine (Dec 30, 2015)

Sativied said:


> I bet they were all male though.


NA they weren't male . Just let it grow normally and cut a nice piece of the main head off when it's big enough .you're left with the side branches that become your 7 main heads.. Maybe not exactly 7 but way more then 4


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## Sativied (Dec 30, 2015)

mr sunshine said:


> I'm not even joking.


I was but appearantly too subtle. 

What you described is topping UB style, "cut a nice piece of the main head", topping late and low so every remaining branch becomes a cola. Opposed to topping high to avoid getting one fat main cola.


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## mr sunshine (Dec 30, 2015)

Sativied said:


> I was but appearantly too subtle.
> 
> What you described is topping UB style, "cut a nice piece of the main head", topping late and low so every remaining branch becomes a cola. Opposed to topping high to avoid getting one fat main cola.


Yes it's pretty similar except it's better. When he advises you to cut you only get 4 unstable main heads. When I advise you to cut you get 6 to 10 stable heads...Its sunshines topping technique.


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## DesertGrow89 (Dec 30, 2015)

mr sunshine said:


> Yes it's pretty similar except it's better. When he advises you to cut you only get 4 unstable main heads. When I advise you to cut you get 6 to 10 stable heads...Its sunshines topping technique.


So when do you recommend topping and at what node?


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## mr sunshine (Dec 30, 2015)

DesertGrow89 said:


> So when do you recommend topping and at what node?


It doesn't really matter. just cut the middle main cola that makes it look like a Christmas tree out before you flip.. The side branches will become the top,


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## Sativied (Dec 30, 2015)

mr sunshine said:


> Yes it's pretty similar except it's better. When he advises you to cut you only get 4 unstable main heads. When I advise you to cut you get 6 to 10 stable heads...Its sunshines topping technique.


I'm sure I've seen UB topped plants with 6 colas and more as well as stable quatros. 2 is already taken by "mainlining", so you'll have to come up with a twist, be original, back it up with botany, before you can attach your name to it. Like Sativied's topping technique - get any number of colas without actually topping


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## mr sunshine (Dec 30, 2015)

..topped once.. it's because auxins or whatever the fuck get redistributed To the lower half of the plant... science. .


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## Sativied (Dec 30, 2015)

mr sunshine said:


> .topped once.. it's because auxins or whatever the fuck get redistributed To the lower half of the plant... science. .


Should have thrown in "apical dominance".

Some thing's wrong with those plants though, I think it's the... the... what is that? Beach sand + perlite?

And what do you spray on it? Looks like my anti-mite cum:






I mainline too:

(not really... males, don't need that much pollen, take up less space this way...)

Anyway, here's STT:

two weeks later:

9 heads and one big one for pics It's for seed, trimmed away most so no actual colas... The key task in STT is bending the stem around the spot where you'd normally top, UB style that is. This causes the plant to redistribute auxins and thereby essentially weakening its apical dominance preventing the terminal from growing much higher than the branches. Does not including removing branches or any leaves.


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## mr sunshine (Dec 30, 2015)

Sativied said:


> Should have thrown in "apical dominance".
> 
> Some thing's wrong with those plants though, I think it's the... the... what is that? Beach sand + perlite?
> 
> ...


Yea, I super crop too.





I've came up with something called the twister it's like lst ,with a twist.


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## Vnsmkr (Dec 31, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy!
> 
> Based on quite a few questions about topping I've received here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a-12.html I decided to reproduce a thread on my favorite topping method published at cann.com about 10 years ago. Even though I've got much better photos from many latter grows both indoor and outdoor, I'm gonna stick with the old photos from the original thread. Lighting is HPS from start to finish with the exception of using 4' long shop fluors from germ until about 2 weeks. Some pix were taken outdoors for better resolution thanks to an old camcorder I was using.
> *
> ...


@Uncle Ben I still use this technique today. Ive tried many others as we all do at one point or another, but I find this the most efficient along with some bending. Hope all is well in your world. Got some crazy Nam, Cambodia sativas rolling now (+ some tried and true strains) along with a full on vegetable garden and a few other gems (sour mango trees, kumquat, lemon tree). Hows the grape deal going for you?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 1, 2016)

Vnsmkr said:


> @Uncle Ben I still use this technique today. Ive tried many others as we all do at one point or another, but I find this the most efficient along with some bending. Hope all is well in your world. Got some crazy Nam, Cambodia sativas rolling now (+ some tried and true strains) along with a full on vegetable garden and a few other gems (sour mango trees, kumquat, lemon tree). Hows the grape deal going for you?


Easy peasy for the simple man such as us. Speaking of Nam, here's a few pix of my Dalat that I gifted to a fella in Santa Cruz. Was in a greenhouse until it got too big for it. Enjoy your goodies. I just got what some consider the best tasting mango in the world - a newly grafted Sweet Tart mango in a 1 gal. RootMaker pot. It's a Zill creation out of Florida. (Well known breeder). Am harvesting blood oranges, Meyer lemons, Key limes, grapefruit, tomatoes and soon avocado.

Grape crop was huge this year averaging 15.64 lbs./vine (equivalent of 11 tons/acre).

Good luck with your garden & share some bud porn.

Happy New Year to everyone!


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 1, 2016)

Sativied said:


> And what do you spray on it? Looks like my anti-mite cum:
> View attachment 3575039


What is that, neem oil?


----------



## Sativied (Jan 1, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> What is that, neem oil?


Canola oil based solution, Suffocates the mites and seals the eggs. Ended up spraying them off with pyrethrin to really get rid of the last few. 

Have a healthy and green 2016 Ben.


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## HeartIandhank (Jan 1, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Easy peasy for the simple man such as us. Speaking of Nam, here's a few pix of my Dalat that I gifted to a fella in Santa Cruz.


I am germinating one of those Dalat as I speak.. going outdoors, as they should!
Just plating one though.. If I get a male, I'll collect pollen. If not, she goes outdoors in 3 months and gets hit with bonzi..

Going guerilla style...


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 2, 2016)

HeartIandhank said:


> I am germinating one of those Dalat as I speak.. going outdoors, as they should!
> Just plating one though.. If I get a male, I'll collect pollen. If not, she goes outdoors in 3 months and gets hit with bonzi..
> 
> Going guerilla style...


Very cool and good that you started it early. Recommend you re-read Cruz's thread or at least the part about the flowering response, about 2/3 way thru. It has got to have one of the weirdest, most "disturbing" flowering responses of anything I've grown. Like Cruz found out it will sit there forever vegging and just about the time you're ready to send it to the compost pile in September it explodes into a flowering mode, like overnight. 

I need to pay you a visit in the spring perhaps? BTW, many years ago I grew some wicked Mexican from bag weed. As Mel Frank says, "Mexican pot can be some of the best pot you can grow". Very true. Super easy to grow, never had hermies, great up high. Of course he said that in his '84 edition before skunk weed had been introduced, or so the forum folklore goes about the introduction of indica to Mexican growers.


----------



## Vnsmkr (Jan 2, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Very cool and good that you started it early. Recommend you re-read Cruz's thread or at least the part about the flowering response, about 2/3 way thru. It has got to have one of the weirdest, most "disturbing" flowering responses of anything I've grown. Like Cruz found out it will sit there forever vegging and just about the time you're ready to send it to the compost pile in September it explodes into a flowering mode, like overnight.
> 
> I need to pay you a visit in the spring perhaps? BTW, many years ago I grew some wicked Mexican from bag weed. As Mel Frank says, "Mexican pot can be some of the best pot you can grow". Very true. Super easy to grow, never had hermies, great up high. Of course he said that in his '84 edition before skunk weed had been introduced, or so the forum folklore goes about the introduction of indica to Mexican growers.


I can attest to this and this is from the same region to the west of dalat (still in vietnam). I did compost one a few years ago, but I got sick of it getting larger, and not fucking full on flowering! Now I know


----------



## Vnsmkr (Jan 2, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Easy peasy for the simple man such as us. Speaking of Nam, here's a few pix of my Dalat that I gifted to a fella in Santa Cruz. Was in a greenhouse until it got too big for it. Enjoy your goodies. I just got what some consider the best tasting mango in the world - a newly grafted Sweet Tart mango in a 1 gal. RootMaker pot. It's a Zill creation out of Florida. (Well known breeder). Am harvesting blood oranges, Meyer lemons, Key limes, grapefruit, tomatoes and soon avocado.
> 
> Grape crop was huge this year averaging 15.64 lbs./vine (equivalent of 11 tons/acre).
> 
> ...


Thanks man, will do on the bud porn though there is some garden porn in my linked thread below. Buds starting


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 6, 2016)

Sativied said:


> I'm sure I've seen UB topped plants with 6 colas and more as well as stable quatros.


I know it looks confusing in a photo, but there's actually 4 main colas and the usual lateral branching off of those 4.

This is an outdoor grown 4 cola plant......
 

.....with 4 colas that became one big mess from their own weight. You can see lateral branching well in the upright coia.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 6, 2016)

mr sunshine said:


> It doesn't really matter.


Sure does. Depends on what kind of profile you want to end up with.


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## supdro (Jan 6, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Sure does. Depends on what kind of profile you want to end up with.


What kind of yeild do you think you will get off that beast? Also if you top do you feel you lose yeild over leaving the plant alone? If indoor growing how long do you veg on average?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 6, 2016)

supdro said:


> What kind of yeild do you think you will get off that beast? Also if you top do you feel you lose yeild over leaving the plant alone? If indoor growing how long do you veg on average?


That was a couple of years ago, don't know. Used to journal, got lazy and stopped taking notes about 10 years or so ago.

I veg indoors long enough to get a big mass of roots and foliage which in turn drives bud production. It's not black and white. It's a spur of the moment judgement call based on experience and knowing what height I want to end up at.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 6, 2016)

Sativied said:


> I'm sure I've seen UB topped plants with 6 colas and more as well as stable quatros. 2 is already taken by "mainlining", so you'll have to come up with a twist, be original, back it up with botany, before you can attach your name to it. Like Sativied's topping technique - get any number of colas without actually topping


@Sativied ....hey man, you linked me up with a super high tech greenhouse op. Check this Jap grow on tropical fruits. Unbelievable these guys/gals! Way too labor intensive for this boy! http://www.hawaiitropicalfruitgrowers.org/conferences/2012/2012_Producing_Consistent_High_Quality_Fruit_in_Japan.pdf


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## supdro (Jan 6, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> That was a couple of years ago, don't know. Used to journal, got lazy and stopped taking notes about 10 years or so ago.
> 
> I veg indoors long enough to get a big mass of roots and foliage which in turn drives bud production. It's not black and white. It's a spur of the moment judgement call based on experience and knowing what height I want to end up at.


Makes sense...what is your fave synthetic nute and why? Been using dyna for years thanks for that!


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## Sativied (Jan 6, 2016)

Hey thanks for sharing. Didn't know they gift perfect fruits in Japan. Very interesting to see how that takes quality over quantity to a whole different level.


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## mr sunshine (Jan 6, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Sure does. Depends on what kind of profile you want to end up with.


Yea the heights about the only thing that would be affected. The stability that comes from using your technique late instead of early is well worth the couple extra inches imo.. I'm not saying let the plant get huge I'm just saying give the plant a little bit of time and the side branches will come off the main and be able to hold more weight, instead of splitting low


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## Sativied (Jan 6, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> I know it looks confusing in a photo, but there's actually 4 main colas and the usual lateral branching off of those 4.
> 
> This is an outdoor grown 4 cola plant......
> View attachment 3579556
> ...


I was referring to plants topped using UB topping style topping and not specifically your plants, but I just read the topic title again and see the 4 now  Lovely plant by the way, sexy leaves.

I let it depend on the number of plants. If I grow 6 plants I like them to have at least 6 colas so I get 6x6 colas, as in 36, works well under 600watt. In a good run with the right strain that is a good way to get the max of the space. With 9 plants that would be 4 colas each obviously.

I topped some plants tomorrow... down to the bottom 3 sets of branches ending up with 6 colas

Before:


^About 4.5" tall, working on 7th node. 2 inch tall after topping.

After:

^Notice how the two in the center are still close to the stem and not in the way of the lowest two. Doesn't always work out evenly but with the occasional help of some wire, or pinching the longest 1, it works out fine.


I normally grow them a little larger, these are merely to test a bag of seed to confirm what it is (mixed up labels...), but what matters more to me is maturity. I prefer to top 'after' they showed sex during veg (which happens to work with what I grow, varies per variety), as when topping you also remove the part where most flower hormones accumulated. It doesn't delay the onset of flowering after topping (though if one would run 12/12 from start it would) it does delay the ability to determine sex during veg based on preflowers. If I hadn't topped these, I would have been able to determine the sex within a week or two tops. (Showing again, for the x-hundred of plants that 24hrs of light is best for vegging - and old T8 18w tubes still work fine for seedlings).


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 7, 2016)

supdro said:


> Makes sense...what is your fave synthetic nute and why? Been using dyna for years thanks for that!


Whatever's on the shelf. Seriously, I have a dozen including individual salts like ammonium sulfate, potassium sulfate, potassium nitrate, etc. Dyna-Gro is a great product and and a good value.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 7, 2016)

Nice job Sativied. BTW, did Amsterdam finally close down the cannabis shops and cafes? Is that kind of business activity illegal now? Last I heard that was the aim of your government.


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## Sativied (Jan 7, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice job Sativied. BTW, did Amsterdam finally close down the cannabis shops and cafes? Is that kind of business activity illegal now? Last I heard that was the aim of your government.


Nah, can't put that genie back in the bottle. Coffeeshops are legal (they got permits), growing and supplying is not. That is still an ongoing battle between local governments (city, county) and the national government.

In Amsterdam a pro cannabis (-shops, but also want legal supply) party is leading since last year. The shops that were closed were too close to a school, or in the postal code 1012, which is pretty much the red light district. Project 2012 (cleaning up the RLD, wanting to make it the socalled entrance of the centre) was initiated by a predecessor. The current leading party wants to end the closing of shops. About 15 more were still scheduled to close. The mayor agrees for now, but is waiting for a ruling from a judge to see if they can end the closing of shops without previously closed shops suing the city. They can probably because the closing usually comes down to simply not renewing the already temporary permit.

I was in Amsterdam new year's eve, and did notice some more shops closed (like the popular shop Baba) but, like others did, they will reopen at a different location. The reason they want to stop closing shops is because there aren't enough anymore, and many function more and more as take-away shops having removed tables and seats so less people have to wait outside in line. Effectively Amsterdam already isn't what it used to be. It's more about selling to tourists than having a safe relaxed spot to smoke and play foosball and snooker.

Ironically it's impossible to walk through that rdl area without being offered xtc etc over and over.

Several of the raided growshop owners appeared in court by now and in most cases the cops have to give/pay back everything they confiscated and destroyed (lack of proof they were selling to large scale growers). Judges aren't going along with the growshop law as expected. Just as ruling guilty but without penalty in many cases where growers and coffeeshop suppliers get raided. Our nr 1 activist recently won too:
http://news.asiaone.com/news/world/unrepentant-dutch-cannabis-grower-revels-court-win

A recent poll by a pro cannabis university professor, actively promoting legalization since 1996, showed again a large majority of the population wants legalization. A couple of months ago several large counties came with a joined report and recommendation to regulate cannabis grows by allowing growers to get licenses/permits to grow, similar to alcohol. Shortly before that the national government, initiated by a christan conservative party, in the house voted for "not" cooperating with any form of regulation desired by local governments and that proposal got a majority by 1 vote... 2 vote difference from being able to get a license to grow. That may sound bad to Canadians but is exactly what I want.

In the meantime coffeeshops complain it becomes harder and harder to buy quality as they used to deal with small growers who grow with love for the plant, but nowadays have to deal with large criminal organizations to get enough supply. Business is booming for those that aren't closed, but they are unhappy nonetheless.

And fuck Thailand... http://www.cannabisnewsnetwork.com/coffeeshop-pioneer-van-laarhoven-sentenced-to-103-years-in-thailand/


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 7, 2016)

Damn! Amsterdam and Thailand. How the tables have reversed. The U.S. is fast becoming the most tolerant country for cannabis medical and recreation use while the opposite is happening in other countries it seems. Colombia also has tough pot laws for example and if you value your head don't get caught with alcohol or pot in the Middle East. It's OK for the Taliban to finance their murderous ops with opium growing sales though. Fuck them and the camels they rode in on.

There are some that laugh but in Texas which HAD the reputation for being tough on cannabis, it's pretty much a citation. Judges are even tolerant on grow ops. The folks that get busted are those hauling tons from Mexico by fast boat or truck.


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## Purpsmagurps (Jan 9, 2016)

I was reading about your method when I first learned to grow, and by the time I could try it someone else expanded on your method, thanks ben 
I dont think mainlining would be here if it wasnt for your work lol.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 10, 2016)

Nice job! Looks bushy and green.


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## PopTop (Jan 14, 2016)

UB you are 1 of the few that I pay any attention to when reading about growing MJ. Tried your topping on my last plant, veg to 24" then flipped, it's a sativa (heavyweight seed fruit punch) which takes 12 weeks to mature instead of the 8 the seed grower claimed, got big colas and 5 ounces out of this grow. Did you know that the pic's you posted at the beginning of your thread are not visible anymore ? I don't know if it's the thread or me that can't see them maybe that's why you keep getting people asking about the true second node.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 17, 2016)

PopTop said:


> I don't know if it's the thread or me that can't see them maybe that's why you keep getting people asking about the true second node.


As I said a dozen times before, this isn't my website. Once I lose the ability to edit (which is about a day after a post) I have no control over the content of RIU. A page or two back I posted photos. My text on the first page should be enough though.


----------



## WeeblesWobbles (Jan 17, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Easy peasy for the simple man such as us. Speaking of Nam, here's a few pix of my Dalat that I gifted to a fella in Santa Cruz. Was in a greenhouse until it got too big for it. Enjoy your goodies. I just got what some consider the best tasting mango in the world - a newly grafted Sweet Tart mango in a 1 gal. RootMaker pot. It's a Zill creation out of Florida. (Well known breeder). Am harvesting blood oranges, Meyer lemons, Key limes, grapefruit, tomatoes and soon avocado.
> 
> Grape crop was huge this year averaging 15.64 lbs./vine (equivalent of 11 tons/acre).
> 
> ...


I'd kill for a decent mango...


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## budman111 (Jan 27, 2016)

How many pages now and people are _still_ asking how to top?! Granted there are fewer JPG's to see but if you can't follow a simple 1 step "top between the 2nd and 3rd node" then you have issues.


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## Sativied (Jan 31, 2016)

One of the plants I posted a few posts above. About a week on 12/12, fast transitioning and flowering variety. Despite the stretch - largely from being a male, it turned out nice. Had 6 tops, hence the two wires to pull two branches apart a bit. 5 in pic above, stripping it down to 1 branch (plenty of pollen from1 branch). As you can see in the pic below it express whorled phyllotaxy at several nodes, so more leaves, yet as you can see above still such a nice open structure.


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## UncleBuck (Jan 31, 2016)

Sativied said:


> View attachment 3598225
> One of the plants I posted a few posts above. About a week on 12/12, fast transitioning and flowering variety. Despite the stretch - largely from being a male, it turned out nice. Had 6 tops, hence the two wires to pull two branches apart a bit. 5 in pic above, stripping it down to 1 branch (plenty of pollen from1 branch). As you can see in the pic below it express whorled phyllotaxy at several nodes, so more leaves, yet as you can see above still such a nice open structure.
> 
> View attachment 3598226


so are you still terrified of muslims?

LOL


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## a mongo frog (Jan 31, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> so are you still terrified of muslims?
> 
> LOL


No man..... It seems that only Trump fans are worried about them.........


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## UncleBuck (Jan 31, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> No man..... It seems that only Trump fans are worried about them.........


well ,sativied thinks that muslims should be banned from building mosques, or even doing upkeep on existing ones. and that muslim children should be forcible "reeducated". and then he calls me an extremist after spouting off his hitler-esque rhetoric.

so i like to keep up with the guy and see how he's doing from time to time. he pretty much stopped posting altogether after i drew all these bigoted little details out of him.


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## Sativied (Jan 31, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> so are you still terrified of muslims?
> 
> LOL


Never have been, never will be. I see you are still as simplistic...


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## a mongo frog (Jan 31, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> well ,sativied thinks that muslims should be banned from building mosques, or even doing upkeep on existing ones. and that muslim children should be forcible "reeducated". and then he calls me an extremist after spouting off his hitler-esque rhetoric.
> 
> so i like to keep up with the guy and see how he's doing from time to time. he pretty much stopped posting altogether after i drew all these bigoted little details out of him.


Are you sure he thinks like that? I see him posting all the time in the gavita thread. Totally helping the op out. Cool to watch actually!!!!


----------



## UncleBuck (Jan 31, 2016)

Sativied said:


> Never have been, never will be. I see you are still as simplistic...


really? because o have a whole shitload of quotes from you about how those scary muslims are so busy raping white girls, and sharia kaw-ing you, and going all jihad on nice white folks like yourself.

you even said they need to be banned from entering your country, they need to get sent back home, they need to stup building mosques, and their kids need to be reeducated.

kinda sounds like you are one scared little pussy.


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## UncleBuck (Jan 31, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Are you sure he thinks like that? I see him posting all the time in the gavita thread. Totally helping the op out. Cool to watch actually!!!!


see for yourself. dude is a complete fucking racist.



Sativied said:


> And I didn't say get rid of mosques, I said stop building them.





Sativied said:


> People nowadays take for granted how many people fought, bled, and died for western civilization, a result of jewish-christian society, and it's downright stupid to think islam fits in.


(note: the reference to "judeo christian society and western civilization" is right out of white supremacy 101^^^)



Sativied said:


> It's an accepted fact, across the political spectrum in Europe, that multiculturalism failed.


^^^here is more white supremacy talk.



Sativied said:


> I'm not against the kids from parents from muslim countries in our schools, I'm against anyone telling them anything about islam.


reeducating the children, hitler-style.



Sativied said:


> Well, actually, I have no problem saying I'm entirely against islam. Any form of it. I'm against religion by itself, but islam is the worst by far and should not be tolerated but outlawed. They are the fascists of this century.


i guess satiuvied doesn't see the irony behind banning a religion and then callim them fascist. LOL


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## a mongo frog (Jan 31, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> see for yourself. dude is a complete fucking racist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well in all reality people are aloud to have their own views on life, even if some don't agree on them. He seems like friendly guy that enjoys helping people, and thats a great quality to have. Don't you think?


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## Sativied (Jan 31, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> well ,sativied thinks that muslims should be banned from building mosques, or even doing upkeep on existing ones. and that muslim children should be forcible "reeducated". and then he calls me an extremist after spouting off his hitler-esque rhetoric.
> 
> so i like to keep up with the guy and see how he's doing from time to time. he pretty much stopped posting altogether after i drew all these bigoted little details out of him.


Awww those poor little muslim children... So we had the strawman, the appeal to emotion, and your wishful-thinking pathetic attempt to repair your broken ego (after I held a mirror in front of your face and you melted down...).

Reeducating is exactly what we do now, teach refugees about the liberties they get, but that they also apply to others regardless of whatever they think Islam dicates. Can't have them going around assaulting and raping women and gay men on a daily basis you know...

You like to keep up with me and I posted less because of you? Ha.... Is that what you told yourself all this time... keep doing that bucky. While you clean your neighbor's pool at a fraction of what I make transparent little punk.

You _are_ factually an extremist and way too simplistic for me to waste any time on refuting your attempts to convince yourself of your wishfulthinking. Have you ever considered the obvious fact people don't reply to you because you're not nearly as special as you think you are... Cry me a river with your stupid black and white nonsense. Trump!


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## UncleBuck (Jan 31, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Well in all reality people are aloud to have their own views on life, even if some don't agree on them. He seems like friendly guy that enjoys helping people, and thats a great quality to have. Don't you think?


he wouldn't be so friendly if he thought you were muslim. that type of racism is an ugly trait to have, wouldn't you agree?


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## UncleBuck (Jan 31, 2016)

Sativied said:


> You _are_ factually an extremist and way too simplistic


which one of us wants to ban a religion, reeducate children, and makes thinly veiled appeals to white supremacist principles?


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## UncleBuck (Jan 31, 2016)

Sativied said:


> extremist dividing douchebags like yourself


again, which one of us wants to ban a religion, reeducate children, and makes thinly veiled appeals to white supremacist principles?

here is that white supremacy ideology about "judeo christian principles and western civilization" straight from the nation's foremost white supremacy organization, just to cement that nail in the coffin:

http://www.preservingwesternciv.com/about-2/

*We believe that America’s Judeo-Christian heritage and European identity must be defended. Today, our glorious Western civilization is under assault from many directions. Three such threats will be discussed at this site.

First, the massive influx to the United States and Europe of Third-World immigrants who do not share our fundamental political and cultural values.

Second, the threat from Islam, a militant ideology that is hostile to our society and, in principle, committed to destroying it.

Third, because of the persistent disappointing performance of blacks (which many whites mistakenly blame on themselves) many whites have guilt feelings that undermine Western morale and deter us from dealing sensibly with the other threats.*


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## WazzaX (Jan 31, 2016)

no offence to anyone intended... but it really sux to come to a stoners site and read this BS


----------



## a mongo frog (Jan 31, 2016)

WazzaX said:


> no offence to anyone intended... but it really sux to come to a stoners site and read this BS


What BS? This is a topping thread.


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## WazzaX (Jan 31, 2016)

exactly...


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 3, 2016)

WazzaX said:


> no offence to anyone intended... but it really sux to come to a stoners site and read this BS


Take it to Politics BuckaTroll.


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## papajohn (Feb 22, 2016)

Ub what's your favorite pre emergent herbicide product on the farm?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Feb 23, 2016)

Pendulum, mainly for grass burs.


----------



## ThaiBaby1 (Mar 11, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Pendulum, mainly for grass burs.


Hi Ben,
I remember you from other sites. What is your soil mix? Still using a 600 hps?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 12, 2016)

ThaiBaby1 said:


> Hi Ben,
> I remember you from other sites. What is your soil mix? Still using a 600 hps?


Howdy! My soil mix is 50/50 organics/inorganics. I'm making a huge batch right now to plant mangos. Don't do indoor growing, only outdoor and not recently. Too many other priorities and interests compared to 15 years ago.


----------



## papajohn (Mar 12, 2016)

Hi ub what active ingredient do you use for pythium and phytophThora?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 12, 2016)

papajohn said:


> Hi ub what active ingredient do you use for pythium and phytophThora?


Phytophthora pressure, on cannabis? Are you referring to pythium as in soil borne?


----------



## papajohn (Mar 12, 2016)

Yes I'm having a bit of soil borne problems in my veggy garden,not canabis sorry.


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## ThaiBaby1 (Mar 12, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy! My soil mix is 50/50 organics/inorganics. I'm making a huge batch right now to plant mangos. Don't do indoor growing, only outdoor and not recently. Too many other priorities and interests compared to 15 years ago.


Yeh, I remember now you said you were gonna stop growing indoors.


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## questiondj42 (Mar 15, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy! My soil mix is 50/50 organics/inorganics. I'm making a huge batch right now to plant mangos. Don't do indoor growing, only outdoor and not recently. Too many other priorities and interests compared to 15 years ago.


Mangoes? Uhg. Very, very jealous.


----------



## LiteSport (Mar 23, 2016)

I was hoping that you guys could help me figure out how to top my plants. It seems that I have an alternating leaf pattern. I have attached some pictures. Plus, I have a leaf coming out of the top of the other leaf. I have 7 plants like this, all are clones from the same mom.

Can I top these? If so where do I cut? Or do I have a bigger problem with this leaf pattern?

Thanks
Lite


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## papajohn (Mar 25, 2016)

Hi ub why do you permethrin as a insecticide and it's not listed safe for edibles?


----------



## Flowki (Apr 13, 2016)

How would BB respond to this?


----------



## Slab (Apr 14, 2016)

Busy time of the year for agriculturists.


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## kachiga (Apr 14, 2016)

Be cool if ok pictures worked in first post.


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## Slab (Apr 15, 2016)

LiteSport said:


> I was hoping that you guys could help me figure out how to top my plants. It seems that I have an alternating leaf pattern. I have attached some pictures. Plus, I have a leaf coming out of the top of the other leaf. I have 7 plants like this, all are clones from the same mom.
> 
> Can I top these? If so where do I cut? Or do I have a bigger problem with this leaf pattern?
> 
> ...


Above the,second node . I highly recommend you read the thread. uncle ben responded to that question no less than 50 times


----------



## VenomGrower6990 (Apr 15, 2016)

LiteSport said:


> I was hoping that you guys could help me figure out how to top my plants. It seems that I have an alternating leaf pattern. I have attached some pictures. Plus, I have a leaf coming out of the top of the other leaf. I have 7 plants like this, all are clones from the same mom.
> 
> Can I top these? If so where do I cut? Or do I have a bigger problem with this leaf pattern?
> 
> ...


Looks like it already has its pre-flowers? Showing pistols.


----------



## SSHZ (Apr 19, 2016)

It sucks that all the early pic's are now gone..........WTF?


----------



## desertdog (Apr 25, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Howdy!
> 
> Based on quite a few questions about topping I've received here: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/13820-fimming-topping-101-a-12.html I decided to reproduce a thread on my favorite topping method published at cann.com about 10 years ago. Even though I've got much better photos from many latter grows both indoor and outdoor, I'm gonna stick with the old photos from the original thread. Lighting is HPS from start to finish with the exception of using 4' long shop fluors from germ until about 2 weeks. Some pix were taken outdoors for better resolution thanks to an old camcorder I was using.
> *
> ...


Is this method only for seedlings?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Apr 25, 2016)

papajohn said:


> Hi ub what active ingredient do you use for pythium and phytophThora?


Check out Phyton 35


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## papajohn (Apr 29, 2016)

A bit pricey for a 1 litre,ub would the same copper sulfate pentahydrate sold at my local depot work?I'm getting my hands on a 25.2%.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Apr 29, 2016)

papajohn said:


> A bit pricey for a 1 litre,ub would the same copper sulfate pentahydrate sold at my local depot work?I'm getting my hands on a 25.2%.


.15 oz (1 tsp) preventative, .35 oz curative on the Phyton 35 or MagnaBon.


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## papajohn (Apr 29, 2016)

I know if the product was lame you wouldn't have recommended it,thanks again.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Apr 29, 2016)

papajohn said:


> I know if the product was lame you wouldn't have recommended it,thanks again.


Hell no I wouldn't especially in lieu of having some nasty black streaks on world class avocado trees, most of them patented at one time. I suspect phomopsis twig blight. Recently sent off sticks for pathogen analysis to Tx A&M. It's OMRI listed for organic gardeners. Cu is a fertilizer too, will give some greening. I'm commercial and know of no other product that comes close to controlling these bacteria and fungi pathogens. BIG benefit is it's systemic as opposed to most copper sprays which are topical and preventative only.

Not sure of the rot that hits tight buds but if I had to guess would suspect black rot or botytris.

Alternaria Blight
Alternaria Leaf Spot
Angular Leaf Spot
Anthracnose
Apple Scab
Bacterial Blast
Bacterial Blight
Bacterial Canker
Bacterial Leaf Spot
Bacterial Speck
Bacterial Spot
Bacterial Stalk Rot
Bacterial Stem Canker
Ball Moss
Black Leaf Spot
Black Knot
Black Pitting
Black Pod
Black Rot
Blossom Blast
Blossom Brown Rot
Blotch
Blue Mold
Botryosphaeria Panicle
Botytris Blight
Brown Rot
Brown Spot
Cane Spot
Cherry Leaf Spot
Citrus Canker (suppression) Cercospora
Cercospora Early Blight
Cercospora Leaf Spot
Coffee Berry Disease
Collar Rot
Common Blight
Coryneum Blight (Shot Hole)
Crown Rot
Downy Mildew
Early Blight
Erwinia herbicola
European Canker
Fire Blight
Fruit Rot
Gray Leaf Mold
Greasy Spot
Gummy Stem Blight
Halo Blight
Helminthosporium Spot Blotch
Iron Spot
Kernel Rot
Late Blight
Leaf Blight
Leaf Rust
Leaf Scorch
Leaf Spot
Leptosphaerulina Leaf Spot
Melanose
Phoma Leaf Spot
Phompsis
Phomopsis Twig Blight
Phyophthora Blight
Pink Disease
Pink Pitting Pod Spot
Powdery Mildew
Pseudomonas Blight
Pseudomonas flourescens
Pseudomonas syringae
Purple Blotch
Raceme Blight
Red Algae
Red Leaf Spot
Rhizoctonia Foliage Blight
Rose Bloom
Scab
Septoria Leaf Blight
Septoria Leaf Blotch
Septoria Leaf Spot
Septoria Late Blight
Shoot Blast
Shoot Blight
Shuck Rot
Sigatoka (Black and Yellow)
Spanish Moss
Stem Blight
Tip Blight
Walnut Blight
Watermelon Bacterial Fruit Blotch (suppression)
White Rust
Yellow Rust
Zonate Leaf Spot

http://www.magnabon.com/diseases-combated


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## papajohn (May 3, 2016)

Ub is it really necessary to adjust your ph of your water for effectiveness with phyton 35? If yes, how do I go about doing that?


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## Uncle Ben (May 3, 2016)

papajohn said:


> Ub is it really necessary to adjust your ph of your water for effectiveness with phyton 35? If yes, how do I go about doing that?


Use an acid


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## papajohn (May 6, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Use an acid


Brought me a 85%phosphoric acid,what's the dosage per gal? Maybe 1/4 tsp


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## Uncle Ben (May 6, 2016)

papajohn said:


> Brought me a 85%phosphoric acid,what's the dosage per gal? Maybe 1/4 tsp


Add, test. Use a pH meter and find out.


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## SamsonsRiddle (May 6, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Add, test. Use a pH meter and find out.


lol uncle ben, can you water my plants for me?


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## papajohn (May 6, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Add, test. Use a pH meter and find out.


Thanks


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## Uncle Ben (May 9, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> lol uncle ben, can you water my plants for me?


No fair making fun. This IS an Advanced forum ya know.


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## kkt3 (May 14, 2016)

Hey Uncle Ben, I have some girls that I want to top to get 4 main colas. Problem is they are getting along with growth and they have around 8-9 nodes. Was hoping to get them planted outside today and top this evening. Is it still okay to top these girls above the 2nd true node? Here's a pic of a few of them.


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## BastardofBlasphemy (May 17, 2016)

I wouldn't mind some feedback. I'm growing 4 Cherry Bomb and decided to give this topping technique a try on 2 of them. I'm currently growing under lights not fit to grow so my overall growth is slow but all my plants will be going outside for good this coming weekend. After topping at the second node, both plants seemed to only split into two main colas(unless I did something wrong) so I went ahead and topped each apparent main cola a couple of weeks later. What I am loving is the spacing between the two main branches on each plant. Looks like there will be a ton of light let in to power the main colas. I'm excited to see how it turns out but am wondering if I should not have topped a second time. Thoughts? Last 2 pictures are of her sister which I did more traditional topping methods to.

Soil is FFOF with dyna-gro foliage pro and pro-tek


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## budman111 (May 17, 2016)

[QUOTE="kkt3, post: 12594355, member: 700663" I want to top to get 4 main colas..[/QUOTE]
That should have been done a long time age...


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## mr sunshine (May 17, 2016)

I came up with a technique for 7 heads.. you just let it grow for a while then cut out the middle. Magic!


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## papajohn (May 17, 2016)

Ub what are you using commercially as a systemic broad spectrum "selective" herbicide? I've seen so much to choose from at my local depot today.


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## Uncle Ben (May 21, 2016)

kkt3 said:


> Hey Uncle Ben, I have some girls that I want to top to get 4 main colas. Problem is they are getting along with growth and they have around 8-9 nodes. Was hoping to get them planted outside today and top this evening. Is it still okay to top these girls above the 2nd true node? Here's a pic of a few of them.


Sure. This is your call depending on what you want the profile to end up with.


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## Uncle Ben (May 21, 2016)

papajohn said:


> Ub what are you using commercially as a systemic broad spectrum "selective" herbicide? I've seen so much to choose from at my local depot today.


What's the application, the target? Pretty hard to beat 41% glyphosate, BUT, it's not selective. Just "burned down the farm" rows, fence line, encroaching grass along the drive, around gardens, trees, you name it with 30 gals. of mix.

Broad leaves - 2,4-D amine form but watch for ester drift regarding stuff you want to keep. Most likely you won't get any especially if it's cool. Grass control but with no broadleaves/dicots damage - Fusilade. Can spray it into ornamentals, rose garden, etc. where grass is growing, etc.


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## papajohn (May 21, 2016)

I have a 48% glyphosate which I also add ammonium sulfate including a 100 % sufactant to the mix,however my weeds only "yellow" but haven't seen that burn down effect thus far.

I've heard good things about glyphosate,however I'm not sure if I'm tank mixing things right.BTW it's 50ml/gal I'm using,does the dosage limiting effectiveness?


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## GuerrillaGrow (May 26, 2016)

papajohn said:


> I have a 48% glyphosate which I also add ammonium sulfate including a 100 % sufactant to the mix,however my weeds only "yellow" but haven't seen that burn down effect thus far.
> 
> I've heard good things about glyphosate,however I'm not sure if I'm tank mixing things right.BTW it's 50ml/gal I'm using,does the dosage limiting effectiveness?



Gly is normally always 41%. Mix it 2-3 ounces per gallon with water only, there is no need for AS and most gly already has a "sticker" in the mix. If not a drop or 2 of dawn dish soap per gallon does the trick. Gly doesn't burn down, it causes a slow systematic death over 2-3 weeks the warmer it is the faster it dies. And remember gly will kill almost everything except woody tissue aka trees. Keep it away from cherished plants lol.


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## Slab (Jun 4, 2016)

hi Uncle Ben!

Using jacks pro 25-5-15 1/2 tsp per gallon every feeding.

Wanted to know if I can add a tsp of azomite to the mix or should I be top dressing with it?


Using a 5 gallon pot with 50/50 perlite and soil.
I am in week 5 of flowering and she drinks a gallon every other day.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 4, 2016)

If you want more than 4 tops, cut only the new shoot. ONLY THE SHOOT! Leave the leaves intact. This gives 6-8 tops for me everytime!


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## papajohn (Jun 5, 2016)

Ub what's your secret for dark green foliage in calcareous soils?


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab said:


> hi Uncle Ben!
> 
> Using jacks pro 25-5-15 1/2 tsp per gallon every feeding.
> 
> ...


Upped the dosage of jacks to 1 tsp and 1 tbsp of azomite. 

Since my soil is not amended should I be feeding more less often? I am seeing deficientcy so I upped the dosage.


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## papajohn (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab said:


> Upped the dosage of jacks to 1 tsp and 1 tbsp of azomite.
> 
> Since my soil is not amended should I be feeding more less often? I am seeing deficientcy so I upped the dosage.


Why are you using azomite? You should be fine with jacks 25-5-15 at a tsp per gal only when additional greening is necessary


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

papajohn said:


> Why are you using azomite? You should be fine with jacks 25-5-15 at a tsp per gal.


i bought it to ammend some barren soil, didn't get it done and now applying within the feeding schedule.

i couldn't get to tsp per gal without showing N tox any sooner than 5 weeks with jacks. The azomite gives me the boost in P I am hoping for.

Thinking I should go higher than tsp per but would like to hear from you guys that have time using it,


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## Slipup420 (Jun 6, 2016)

I figure out a way to get 100 tops naturally


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> I figure out a way to get 100 tops naturally View attachment 3701468


You have ever gone above 164 tops? Some number I can't remember I reached and it wouldn't produce anymore shoots.


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## Slipup420 (Jun 6, 2016)

Out door yes i think around 1000 tops per plant


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## papajohn (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab said:


> i bought it to ammend some barren soil, didn't get it done and now applying within the feeding schedule.
> 
> i couldn't get to tsp per gal without showing N tox any sooner than 5 weeks with jacks. The azomite gives me the boost in P I am hoping for.
> 
> Thinking I should go higher than tsp per but would like to hear from you guys that have time using it,


25-5-15 has sufficient p to take you through,overage used of p will create lockouts of n and micros which may induce premature leaf drop.


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

papajohn said:


> 25-5-15 has sufficient p to take you through,overage used of p will create lockouts of n and micros inducing premature leaf drop.


I did grow its mom to very late bloom with no drop and fade just now at 9.5 week.s with a few leafs show def of P. But no lock out. With the the 1 tsp of pro per gallon recommendation. I am thinking I need to up the dose beyond 1 tsp. The ppms are super low at one tsp. And this specimen is extremely vigorous.

I will stick with the 1 tsp don't want to get in the things way. Unless that fact that I have no other source of NPK would enable me to push the needle more


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## papajohn (Jun 6, 2016)

https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-never-ending-abuse-of-phosphorous-bloom-foods-to-enhance-flowering.158144/

Have a read here


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## Slab (Jun 7, 2016)

Thanks Papa, been reading Uncle Bens posts for about ten years on other sites and here.

I have had no problems with toxicity the nutrients in azomite are very low. I threw a curve ball labeling the potash in azomite as P, sorry about that.
It has trace minerals and sulfates more than anything and grew a 5.5 ft plant with no problems.

I am deficient in two of the largest fan leaves on the clone at 5 weeks in flower, using the same forumula that I used on her mother.


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## papajohn (Jun 11, 2016)

GuerrillaGrow said:


> Gly is normally always 41%. Mix it 2-3 ounces per gallon with water only, there is no need for AS and most gly already has a "sticker" in the mix. If not a drop or 2 of dawn dish soap per gallon does the trick. Gly doesn't burn down, it causes a slow systematic death over 2-3 weeks the warmer it is the faster it dies. And remember gly will kill almost everything except woody tissue aka trees. Keep it away from cherished plants lol.


Well bro I've got good news my plants are burn down,I think my problem was applying the application where there were low moisture levels (drought stress)


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 11, 2016)

No more than 1.5 oz/gal. of 41% glyphosate is needed to kill most weeds including tough thistle if you kick it up a notch by adding a tsp of ammonium sulfate and additional NIS surfactant. I use a flat nozzle for rows, cone nozzle for unique areas. If wind is an issue use a Tee Jet air induction nozzle, blue tip for low volume, gray for high volume at 40 psi.


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## BobCajun (Jun 26, 2016)

I don't believe it matters where the branches attach to the main stem. I get 3-6 good solid stems by normal topping. They're not right opposite each other but they're all about the same size. I think it's the height of the tops that determines which ones suppress the growth of others, not their origination point. Why would it matter where it originates? Is there a comparison showing the difference? Obviously I didn't read this whole thread. It does help to keep things even if you have branches directly opposite each other but that only happens with seedlings, not clones. Who grows from seed every time, unless it's autos?


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## RusskiyFermer (Jul 3, 2016)

Hi Uncle Ben, others.

I have a plant that I want to try to this method with. She is about 4 weeks old and the first node (not counting the single leaf) just isn't that big. Nodes 2 and 3 are super thick and healthy.

I definitely want to clone the cutting so I will wait to 7-8 nodes before topping, but here is my question:

If I cut above the 3rd node instead of the 2nd, and then remove the 1st node and single leaf branches, leaving just nodes 2 & 3, would the plant perform the same as if I had cut above the 2nd node? Is there any experience with this?

I am sure someone asked the question on one of these pages, but theres so much to read! I am afraid I wont get through all of this in time. Perhaps you know

Thanks


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## RusskiyFermer (Jul 3, 2016)

RusskiyFermer said:


> Hi Uncle Ben, others.
> 
> I have a plant that I want to try to this method with. She is about 4 weeks old and the first node (not counting the single leaf) just isn't that big. Nodes 2 and 3 are super thick and healthy.
> 
> ...


Its cool, I found it. Page 20ish. Thanks


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## thewanderingjack (Jul 31, 2016)

RusskiyFermer said:


> Its cool, I found it. Page 20ish. Thanks


Curious, I looked around page 20ish... gave up... My guess is yes. It's what makes sense to me. But if not please point me to the why (I did try )


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## thewanderingjack (Jul 31, 2016)

This is kind of a great thread... I say kind of because with it being so long now, it's a bit whacky... but the topic is great. I use this method... I didn't really learn it anywhere... I heard of it (or maybe read of it) and it seemed pretty straight forward to me... made a lot of sense too (Apical Dominance/Auxin). I'm kind of surprised that it seems so misunderstood. Very glad to see some good info on it.

Top on toppers, top on! (or off I guess )


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## RusskiyFermer (Aug 7, 2016)

thewanderingjack said:


> Curious, I looked around page 20ish... gave up... My guess is yes. It's what makes sense to me. But if not please point me to the why (I did try )


Page 22, #438, user by1969

By the way, I did top my plant in such a fashion. It is definitely growing two fat, nice colas up top. 4 I'm not so sure about but again, I did cut up higher. Still, the twin colas are going to be pretty awesome.


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## thewanderingjack (Aug 7, 2016)

RusskiyFermer said:


> Page 22, #438, user by1969
> 
> By the way, I did top my plant in such a fashion. It is definitely growing two fat, nice colas up top. 4 I'm not so sure about but again, I did cut up higher. Still, the twin colas are going to be pretty awesome.


awesome, thanks for the reference there 

And yeah, I figured this would be like lollipoping topped plant... which isn't uncommon. But I still wonder... will getting rid of the smaller ones produce enough added size/weight in the remaining colas... over leaving the smalls and making sure they get more light, via LST for example... with all other things being equal (overall light to the plant, pot size, nutes, water).


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## TigerSquad (Aug 17, 2016)

I have three small plants. I have topped or fimmed them. The tallest has hit the top of my grow. I waited too long to top her and I pruned her and she never recovered really. But I'm wanted to supergroup my two smaller plants so I don't run into this problem again. So my question is... Because of the topping and fimming process (the hormone to grow talk is stopped and grows bushy). Will the super cropping process work properly as it seems to contradict what these practises do. ( the plant sends hormone to the branches closest to the top to get them to grow up). I'm probley thinking too hard into this but, im worried. Don't want to mess these lady's up too.


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## papajohn (Aug 19, 2016)

Ub have you purchase? 


https://www.amazon.com/77740-Magnesium-22-5-16-Fertilizer-25-Pound/dp/B002HJBN0S


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 8, 2016)

papajohn said:


> Ub have you purchase?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/77740-Magnesium-22-5-16-Fertilizer-25-Pound/dp/B002HJBN0S


No, should be a good choice. A bit light on the micros though especially Fe and Zn.


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## papajohn (Sep 16, 2016)

I'm contemplating ordering that 20-3-19 blend which also has triple iron and it's available in 25lb bags as opposed to citrus feed.

Ub?


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 18, 2016)

papajohn said:


> I'm contemplating ordering that 20-3-19 blend which also has triple iron and it's available in 25lb bags as opposed to citrus feed.
> 
> Ub?


I have it. Works fine.


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## papajohn (Sep 18, 2016)

Wonderful


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## St1kybudz (Sep 22, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> I don't believe it matters where the branches attach to the main stem. I get 3-6 good solid stems by normal topping. They're not right opposite each other but they're all about the same size. I think it's the height of the tops that determines which ones suppress the growth of others, not their origination point. Why would it matter where it originates? Is there a comparison showing the difference? Obviously I didn't read this whole thread. It does help to keep things even if you have branches directly opposite each other but that only happens with seedlings, not clones. Who grows from seed every time, unless it's autos?


Got one mother that takes the best clones gth #1 topped her and it was wierd developed six tops but 1 was way under developed I have to believe light orientation has something to do with some new shoots lake of development


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## GroDank101 (Sep 29, 2016)

I have 2 plants here that I just used Uncle Ben's Topping Technique on. I hope I got it right, this is my first attempt. I was able to keep the cuttings as clones for both of the strains which are both indica. I cut them above the 2nd node.
Super Hash - Pyramid Seeds



Bubba Kush - Medicann Seeds


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## esh dov ets (Oct 14, 2016)

thewanderingjack said:


> awesome, thanks for the reference there
> 
> And yeah, I figured this would be like lollipoping topped plant... which isn't uncommon. But I still wonder... will getting rid of the smaller ones produce enough added size/weight in the remaining colas... over leaving the smalls and making sure they get more light, via LST for example... with all other things being equal (overall light to the plant, pot size, nutes, water).


I try to do the lollipopin b4 I top. If it's tinny at the bottom or does not look like a cola but like a cutting or runner I take from the bottom to allow the top to get bigger, even after topping.


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## CAhillybilly (Oct 30, 2016)

I contemplated and even bought some Jack's nutrients along with some Grow more 20# bags as I have read awesome things about them. My buddy who is fairly experienced and does grow quality told me that those where geared more for outdoors/ large crops and that I should get something more specific for indoors. (I have 6 Gavitas for flower and separate Veg area with 1k Blue MH, t5, and 315's (experimenting any input on this would be great too))Anyway, the bulk nutes are just sitting on my shelf sealed air tight. Now I am really into making my own nutrients and have tried my best to study plants/mj feeding habits. I'm confident that there are many many inexpensive nutrient products that can perform side by side if not Out perform these high dollar Nute lines. What is your alls opinion? On a smaller indoor grow like mine with 6 1K should I splurge or can I get similar results from Bulk or raw nutes. I am somewhat new to growing, just 2 years so I still have many many more tough breaks to endure. 

What is your Nute feeding routine and experience? Do you feel that AN or CANNA are worth the money/results in a smaller scale grow or can I do the same with Jacks and some proper additives? Sorry to hijack this thread, I just saw where you were looking at purchasing Jack's and saw UB respond. was stoked to see UB still active as he is an OG and I have a lot of respect for his opinions, knowledge, and input. 

I know I haven't been a member long and don't have shit for post history, but I've always just been able to find my answers on these boards for the past 5/6 years. Now as my issues are becoming more complex, unique to my particular situations, I feel as though I can maybe actually ask some questions that aren't answered 100 times and can contribute to the community. 

Thanks for your time guys!


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## esh dov ets (Oct 30, 2016)

CAhillybilly said:


> I contemplated and even bought some Jack's nutrients along with some Grow more 20# bags as I have read awesome things about them. My buddy who is fairly experienced and does grow quality told me that those where geared more for outdoors/ large crops and that I should get something more specific for indoors. (I have 6 Gavitas for flower and separate Veg area with 1k Blue MH, t5, and 315's (experimenting any input on this would be great too))Anyway, the bulk nutes are just sitting on my shelf sealed air tight. Now I am really into making my own nutrients and have tried my best to study plants/mj feeding habits. I'm confident that there are many many inexpensive nutrient products that can perform side by side if not Out perform these high dollar Nute lines. What is your alls opinion? On a smaller indoor grow like mine with 6 1K should I splurge or can I get similar results from Bulk or raw nutes. I am somewhat new to growing, just 2 years so I still have many many more tough breaks to endure.
> 
> What is your Nute feeding routine and experience? Do you feel that AN or CANNA are worth the money/results in a smaller scale grow or can I do the same with Jacks and some proper additives? Sorry to hijack this thread, I just saw where you were looking at purchasing Jack's and saw UB respond. was stoked to see UB still active as he is an OG and I have a lot of respect for his opinions, knowledge, and input.
> 
> ...


I want to to formulate my own to. I am leaning towards a super soil approach. But I use liquid fertilizer in organic soil most of my nutes can go in hydro. I use gh or advanced But in sourcing my own I figure 
N p k
Micros
Aminos 
Catalysts or hormones three kinds
Fulvic
Soil conditioner such as compost or humic acid
microbes 

Here's what I am looking into
Potassium gluconate (one by; now) a human supplement 
Popcorn tea for cytokinins 

If I could find a way to get the salt out of braggs liquid aminos or get the salt out of brewers yeast or find the yeast or method the nutrient companys use..

I am interested in sources that are natural and come without the mark up of the big nutrient companys.


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