# Co2 burners ......need to verify some things ....stop in



## justugh (Jun 4, 2017)

hey 

OK we all know Co2 good ........i moved out of a illegal area into a legal one so some of my methods are no longer need to be used like bottle Co2/mash buckets 

so i am here to ask a few ?s about propain Co2 ......if i miss anything please add in i will return the favor by passing the info on to others i run across 

1 does a Co2 burn cause the RH in the room to go UP (i heard someone say this once) 
2 if u had to go between using tanks of propain or having a large 250/500 gallon tank put in what would u do 
3 controllers who should i look at who should i avoid (tank was timer on a set release rate simple math) 

if u need the basics 
944 ft above sea lvl natural amount is only in 350ppm at best 200ppm avg 
area is 24x36 feet with a 12 foot roof 
shooting for 1200-1500 ppm 

4 based off the size of the area what number of burners should i look at 
5 is there a basic rule of thumb 1 burner adds so much Co2 ...something i can do the math double check/keep it for later expansions 

6 i was running auto plants so my light table table was at 20/4 for the whole room with a natural ppm of 700ppm bummed it to 1500/2000 with tank/mash buckets....i plan to do some photos too now i have room to work does it hurt the plants if i keep the ppm at like 1200ppm with lights off for the flowering photos (not zoning off the area just use tents for the light blocking factor but keep the envo control all one big area to cut down on stuff) 

7 i am assuming it is always best to hang the burner instead of setting on the floor( oxygen is lighter then Co2 u want it burning the O up to make Co2 ) 

now if i have missed anything please toss it in .....horror stories about burns .....simple improvements can do to get most out of gear


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## a mongo frog (Jun 4, 2017)

justugh said:


> 1 does a Co2 burn cause the RH in the room to go UP (i heard someone say this once)


It does in my room with an 8 burner. Day and night cycles a bit higher then i was used to without supplementing. I just added more air movement, basically using those high velocity floor fans pointing straight up.


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## justugh (Jun 4, 2017)

a mongo frog said:


> It does in my room with an 8 burner. Day and night cycles a bit higher then i was used to without supplementing. I just added more air movement, basically using those high velocity floor fans pointing straight up.


nice thanks for that ........the nartural RH is low so a burner is even more justifed as a good buy


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## kratos015 (Jun 8, 2017)

a mongo frog said:


> It does in my room with an 8 burner. Day and night cycles a bit higher then i was used to without supplementing. I just added more air movement, basically using those high velocity floor fans pointing straight up.


I always heard CO2 would increase humidity and was actually kind of glad to find that out, but my particular burner doesn't raise my humidity. Running a propane burner myself, but it's only a 4 burner and not an 8 burner. Perhaps that's why? My room is 1280 cubic feet and when I placed my order the description said the burner would be enough, it raises the ppms in my room just fine but does absolutely nothing for me in terms of humidity. Although it's probably just because I have 2 15k window units, with my generator and 2 humidifiers I can't get my humidity over 25-30% unless I go in there with spray bottles every hour or so 

OP, I use this controller and can't recommend it enough.

https://www.amazon.com/CO2Meter-RAD-0501-Monitor-Controller-Greenhouses/dp/B017847K76/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1496961453&sr=8-1&keywords=co2+controller

It'll even display the temps too, great controller and I'm very satisfied with it so far. All the other controllers in this price range aren't digital, this controller will do the same job as the more expensive ones. 

You can figure out the size of your burner by calculating the cubic feet of your grow room, then the description of the unit should mention the amount of cubic feet it's able to handle. If I had to guess, you'll probably need an 8 burner or more for a room that size. Definitely want it to be hanging too because, like you pointed out, CO2 will sink to the bottom of the room eventually. 

And as for your tank sizes, that's really a matter of personal preference. If you can have someone fill a 250+ gallon tank and the tank is in a discreet location then you should be fine. I have a 7 gallon tank that I fill as needed because it's more discreet since I'm growing in a shed. If I had someone come by to fill my 20 gallon tanks, eventually I'd get asked why I need propane in my shed and I can't have that haha. Sure it's a bit of a pain to have to get the thing filled every 5-7 days, but it's much better than having someone over here asking questions.


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## Budley Doright (Jun 13, 2017)

The products of combustion contain lots of water and it should be raising the humidity in the room as it is not vented


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## chemphlegm (Jun 13, 2017)

burning propane produces humidity.
your propane tank company will NOT fill the tank if they know its connected to a burner indoors this way, they just wont.
I use cap controllers work fine forever for me.

I use a four burner generator that cycles a few time a day for the win. I fill my little tank every three weeks or so keeping the ppm's between 600-1000 ppm, to keep an even 400-500 at every leaf surface during lights on.


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## Budley Doright (Jun 13, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> burning propane produces humidity.
> your propane tank company will NOT fill the tank if they know its connected to a burner indoors this way, they just wont.
> I use cap controllers work fine forever for me.
> 
> I use a four burner generator that cycles a few time a day for the win. I fill my little tank every three weeks or so keeping the ppm's between 600-1000 ppm, to keep an even 400-500 at every leaf surface during lights on.


The supplier will fill tanks here and there is actually a code section. If it's a legal grow and a certified generator, no issue here at all.


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## chemphlegm (Jun 13, 2017)

I'd think it would be tough to convince them that a bbq is safe to burn indoors. co2 burners are just open flames burning propane inside of a semi sealed room..... insurance, etc....i dunno, prove it?


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## Budley Doright (Jun 13, 2017)

This is the B149 code re CO2 generator. I teach the course lol. 
There is more but this should suffice lol


7.3 Carbon dioxide generators
7.3.1
A generator used in a greenhouse shall be certified for the application.
7.3.2
A generator used in a produce storage area shall take its combustion air from outside the storage area.


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## Budley Doright (Jun 13, 2017)

Not to mention the vent free fireplaces you guys use down there, same thing as a co2 generator except for the yellow CO filled flame lol. We said no to them here, now their just silly lol.


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## chemphlegm (Jun 13, 2017)

op says he's growing in a room not a greenhouse. I'm guessing the propane company would not hook up to one on the wall in the back bedroom aye?


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## Budley Doright (Jun 13, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> op says he's growing in a room not a greenhouse. I'm guessing the propane company would not hook up to one on the wall in the back bedroom aye?


If the unit is cga certified they will hook them up and not just green houses. Ok so then go buy a ventless fireplace if they won't then, their approved right? What's the difference between the two? Or fill your own then but if it's a legal grow I probably would make sure it meets code, you know for insurance .


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## chemphlegm (Jun 13, 2017)

I changed from a liquid cooled electronic ignition and noticed the pilot alone provides a fair amount of c02 constantly, like an hour or so of working in there shows up on the meter impressively too. I wondered about hot water tanks


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## thumper60 (Jun 14, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> I'd think it would be tough to convince them that a bbq is safe to burn indoors. co2 burners are just open flames burning propane inside of a semi sealed room..... insurance, etc....i dunno, prove it?


legal to run open burners in homes,except bedrooms I have installed 100s


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## Budley Doright (Jun 14, 2017)

Ya a bedroom unit here has to be approved on rating plate and must have a thermostat, and yup direct vent .... fireplace or space heater . My favourite demo is a bic lighter it'll take my analyzer up to about 800 ppm lol. But it would never add that much to a room that you would get a reading unless it was a perfectly sealed room with no dilution and it would take a long time to reach 25 ppm. A lady died in her bathroom in a soaker tub burning a shit load of candles for a couple of hours with no dilution air.


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## Budley Doright (Jun 14, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> I changed from a liquid cooled electronic ignition and noticed the pilot alone provides a fair amount of c02 constantly, like an hour or so of working in there shows up on the meter impressively too. I wondered about hot water tanks


Never seen a liquid cooled pilot? What was that on?


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## justugh (Jun 14, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> op says he's growing in a room not a greenhouse. I'm guessing the propane company would not hook up to one on the wall in the back bedroom aye?


this would be it own building for just growing ........no one living in it


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## chemphlegm (Jun 14, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> Never seen a liquid cooled pilot? What was that on?


uh..

1)liquid cooled operation
2) electronic ignition= no pilot light
3 )tip over safety
4) low o2 shut down

used to have this unit^ with electronic ignition, now I have a unit with a pilot light thats on full time.


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## chemphlegm (Jun 14, 2017)

thumper60 said:


> legal to run open burners in homes,except bedrooms I have installed 100s


I know its legal but will a propane company fill a 500 gallon tank after they plumb it to your bedroom unit? big difference between a c02 generator for a marijuana grow hooked to a 500 gallon tank or a space heater fireplace install eh? I think so, the fireplaces are approved for this type of install and I'll still bet nobody comes up with a c02 generator for greenhouses that is approved for a bedroom grow op

my gas company will not fill these tanks unless they themselves plumbed it. just wondering of the install into a stoners bedroom....I bet not but could be as simple as maybe not in Michigan but prolly so in Tennessee lol


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## chemphlegm (Jun 14, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> Ya a bedroom unit here has to be approved on rating plate and must have a thermostat, and yup direct vent .... fireplace or space heater . My favourite demo is a bic lighter it'll take my analyzer up to about 800 ppm lol. But it would never add that much to a room that you would get a reading unless it was a perfectly sealed room with no dilution and it would take a long time to reach 25 ppm. A lady died in her bathroom in a soaker tub burning a shit load of candles for a couple of hours with no dilution air.


do you have a link to an approved bedroom unit ?

my room is sealed, not hermetically, but no air transfer/exchange takes place purposely. My ambient c02 at lights on is 390ppm.
While using the electronic ignition unit with no pilot my ambient first lights on was below 200, maybe theres another reason but I always assumed it was the pilot as this is all that changed in the space. After working an hour or so in the space the c02 ppm raises visibly on my meter also.


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## thumper60 (Jun 14, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> I know its legal but will a propane company fill a 500 gallon tank after they plumb it to your bedroom unit? big difference between a c02 generator for a marijuana grow hooked to a 500 gallon tank or a space heater fireplace install eh? I think so, the fireplaces are approved for this type of install and I'll still bet nobody comes up with a c02 generator for greenhouses that is approved for a bedroom grow op
> 
> my gas company will not fill these tanks unless they themselves plumbed it. just wondering of the install into a stoners bedroom....I bet not but could be as simple as maybe not in Michigan but prolly so in Tennessee lol


a co2 generator is the same as a unvented heater cant have them in bedrooms,i worked for a gas co ,u don't have a clue what your talking about AGAIN if its ul listed we go in do pressure test dosnt matter who ran the line if the test hold we hook up,u just got a dickwad co


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## OldMedUser (Jun 14, 2017)

I tried burning propane but it got way too warm in my room.

 

I made a little double burner alcohol lamp and ran methyl hydrate in it but I'm not sure if it really helped.


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## thumper60 (Jun 14, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> Ya a bedroom unit here has to be approved on rating plate and must have a thermostat, and yup direct vent .... fireplace or space heater . My favourite demo is a bic lighter it'll take my analyzer up to about 800 ppm lol. But it would never add that much to a room that you would get a reading unless it was a perfectly sealed room with no dilution and it would take a long time to reach 25 ppm. A lady died in her bathroom in a soaker tub burning a shit load of candles for a couple of hours with no dilution air.


I heard u guys were little tougher on laws up there,can u run bvents in bedrooms up there?


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## chemphlegm (Jun 14, 2017)

thumper60 said:


> a co2 generator is the same as a unvented heater cant have them in bedrooms,i worked for a gas co ,u don't have a clue what your talking about AGAIN if its ul listed we go in do pressure test dosnt matter who ran the line if the test hold we hook up,u just got a dickwad co


simmer down, I never said I knew what I was talking about. obviously an opinion is being shared along with some personal experience. not all of us are propane appliance installers right?

the unvented heaters sold at the store are UL listed. 
No c02 generator I've seen was UL listed but they do claim they use _some_ UL listed materials in the build. Is some UL listed materials in the build enough for legal safe installation by the gas company?

*can you show me a UL listed propane fired c02 generator that is made/approved for residential use? that would be special for many interested.*


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## thumper60 (Jun 14, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> simmer down, I never said I knew what I was talking about. obviously an opinion is being shared along with some personal experience. not all of us are propane appliance installers right?
> 
> the unvented heaters sold at the store are UL listed.
> No c02 generator I've seen was UL listed but they do claim they use _some_ UL listed materials in the build. Is some UL listed materials in the build enough for legal safe installation by the gas company?
> ...


never seen a generator set up in a living space,thats what tanks r for I run a unvented for co2 a heat in my out building,we would not hook up to any thing home made or not ul listed same with woodburners done a ton of those to


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## chemphlegm (Jun 14, 2017)

thumper60 said:


> *never seen a generator set up in a living space*,thats what tanks r for I run a unvented for co2 a heat in my out building,*we would not hook up to any thing home made or not ul listed *same with woodburners done a ton of those to


thats all I'll assume until I see a UL listed Co2 generator that is approved for residential in home use.
this is exactly what my propane supplier told me when they delivered a propane tank and hooked up my 22kw standby generator two weeks ago.


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## thumper60 (Jun 14, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> thats all I'll assume until I see a UL listed Co2 generator that is approved for residential in home use.
> this is exactly what my propane supplier told me when they delivered a propane tank and hooked up my 22kw standby generator two weeks ago.


it really boils down to liabilty,once a supplier hooks up,they r on the hook lol


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## chemphlegm (Jun 14, 2017)

thumper60 said:


> it really boils down to liabilty,once a supplier hooks up,they r on the hook lol


sure, they wont hook up a 500 gallon tank to a C02 Generator in a dudes bedroom, aint happening if using a legitimate company to install/hook up. thats my story until I see a UL listed gen rated safe for an indoor dudes bedroom lol


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## thumper60 (Jun 14, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> sure, they wont hook up a 500 gallon tank to a C02 Generator in a dudes bedroom, aint happening if using a legitimate company to install/hook up. thats my story until I see a UL listed gen rated safe for an indoor dudes bedroom lol


I feel the gens r a over priced rip off,just go get a 79 doller vent free from lowes light the pilot an be done with it, I never looked into it but boy u would think the gens would be ul listed


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## Budley Doright (Jun 14, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> uh..
> 
> 1)liquid cooled operation
> 2) electronic ignition= no pilot light
> ...


Oh got ya, lol, I thought you meant a liquid cooled pilot.


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## Budley Doright (Jun 14, 2017)

thumper60 said:


> I heard u guys were little tougher on laws up there,can u run bvents in bedrooms up there?


No natural draft units in a bedroom, must be direct vent. And yup, it's like the Wild West down there lol. Takes like 6 months in school at nights now to get a g2 (<400,000btu's) and 4000 hrs on the job and a bitch of an exam.


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## Budley Doright (Jun 14, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> do you have a link to an approved bedroom unit ?
> 
> my room is sealed, not hermetically, but no air transfer/exchange takes place purposely. My ambient c02 at lights on is 390ppm.
> While using the electronic ignition unit with no pilot my ambient first lights on was below 200, maybe theres another reason but I always assumed it was the pilot as this is all that changed in the space. After working an hour or so in the space the c02 ppm raises visibly on my meter also.


I was talking about a heater not a CO2 generator for a bedroom. . And I'm also not going to fight with you, I know my code lol. That's all I fucking do all day is look up codes in gas, oil, electric .... got 46 phone calls today  .....and I'm semi retired ..... fuck lol. Im a gas fitter, refrigeration mechanic, sheet metal mechanic (resi) and train HVAC apprentices ... it's not glamorous but it pays the bills lol.


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## Budley Doright (Jun 15, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> simmer down, I never said I knew what I was talking about. obviously an opinion is being shared along with some personal experience. not all of us are propane appliance installers right?
> 
> the unvented heaters sold at the store are UL listed.
> No c02 generator I've seen was UL listed but they do claim they use _some_ UL listed materials in the build. Is some UL listed materials in the build enough for legal safe installation by the gas company?
> ...


Check out blue ox .... ul approved but you still need to follow local codes. Our code (Ontario) states you must follow the more stringent codes or those having jurisdiction .... it gets complicated lol.


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## Budley Doright (Jun 15, 2017)

OldMedUser said:


> I tried burning propane but it got way too warm in my room.
> 
> View attachment 3960682
> 
> ...


I'm sure the alcohol burner would in fact raise the CO2 and if sealed it may get quite high actually. I used a heater in the back of a cube van to help dry a shitload of plants once and it was just fucking raining in there the next morning, and yup got fucking hot lol.


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## Budley Doright (Jun 15, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> do you have a link to an approved bedroom unit ?
> 
> my room is sealed, not hermetically, but no air transfer/exchange takes place purposely. My ambient c02 at lights on is 390ppm.
> While using the electronic ignition unit with no pilot my ambient first lights on was below 200, maybe theres another reason but I always assumed it was the pilot as this is all that changed in the space. After working an hour or so in the space the c02 ppm raises visibly on my meter also.


I'm sure the pilot had an effect over a period of time. Not to many standing pilot units here, soon there won't be any I assume due to effiency rules.


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## Budley Doright (Jun 15, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> I know its legal but will a propane company fill a 500 gallon tank after they plumb it to your bedroom unit? big difference between a c02 generator for a marijuana grow hooked to a 500 gallon tank or a space heater fireplace install eh? I think so, the fireplaces are approved for this type of install and I'll still bet nobody comes up with a c02 generator for greenhouses that is approved for a bedroom grow op
> 
> my gas company will not fill these tanks unless they themselves plumbed it. just wondering of the install into a stoners bedroom....I bet not but could be as simple as maybe not in Michigan but prolly so in Tennessee lol


So the supplier has to do the piping? That's bullshit and probably illegal in a competition sense if someone pushed it. Anyone can do the piping here, if certified, and we can actually do the inspection and pressure test, start as well, mind you we take on the liability. I've been asked to testify twice but cases settled out before date...good thing as they pay about $35 a day lol.


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## chemphlegm (Jun 15, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> I was talking about a heater not a CO2 generator for a bedroom. . And I'm also not going to fight with you, I know my code lol. That's all I fucking do all day is look up codes in gas, oil, electric .... got 46 phone calls today  .....and I'm semi retired ..... fuck lol. Im a gas fitter, refrigeration mechanic, sheet metal mechanic (resi) and train HVAC apprentices ... it's not glamorous but it pays the bills lol.



no fighting at all just keeping on point. we all know we can have a ventless heater in our homes, but the point was are c02 generators approved for bedroom use. I like the Blue Ox UL listed burner though, good find thanks!


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## chemphlegm (Jun 15, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> So the supplier has to do the piping? That's bullshit and probably illegal in a competition sense if someone pushed it. Anyone can do the piping here, if certified, and we can actually do the inspection and pressure test, start as well, mind you we take on the liability. I've been asked to testify twice but cases settled out before date...good thing as they pay about $35 a day lol.


yeah, no biggy for me, but hooking that tank to my propane bbq or my c02 gen was a big "NO".
they want to take the liability and be there when the appliance is running to test their connections. sorry, no gas men allowed in my grow room for one, but they said they could not do it anyways.

they said if there was old lines to an old tank they would have to dig new lines for their new tank and hook up in order to accept liability. seems like a swell rule to me, but I dont install gas lines myself so lol


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## thumper60 (Jun 15, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> I'm sure the pilot had an effect over a period of time. Not to many standing pilot units here, soon there won't be any I assume due to effiency rules.


gas companys love standing pilots lol here ya on the schooling never ending


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## chemphlegm (Jun 15, 2017)

the pilot is a boon to my production, I chose to replace my electronic ignition unit with a always lit pilot light unit for my win. It cycles less times every day now and I havent had to service it in four years since new. My electronic unit needed two thermocoupler sparker replacements in a two yr period. I love my pilot light


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## Budley Doright (Jun 15, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> the pilot is a boon to my production, I chose to replace my electronic ignition unit with a always lit pilot light unit for my win. It cycles less times every day now and I havent had to service it in four years since new. My electronic unit needed two thermocoupler sparker replacements in a two yr period. I love my pilot light


Yes i like pilots to . Way less troubles.


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## Budley Doright (Jun 15, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> no fighting at all just keeping on point. we all know we can have a ventless heater in our homes, but the point was are c02 generators approved for bedroom use. I like the Blue Ox UL listed burner though, good find thanks!


No CO2 burners are not approved for bedrooms lol. That would be dangerous lol.


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## Budley Doright (Jun 15, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> no fighting at all just keeping on point. we all know we can have a ventless heater in our homes, but the point was are c02 generators approved for bedroom use. I like the Blue Ox UL listed burner though, good find thanks!


Not to beat a dead horse but "keep on point" you say lol. Who mentioned a bedroom? Not the op unless it's one big fucking bedroom lol.


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## a mongo frog (Jun 15, 2017)

And who mentioned the 500 gallon tank for a fucking 4 burner.......... Good read though!!!!!


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## Budley Doright (Jun 15, 2017)

a mongo frog said:


> And who mentioned the 500 gallon tank for a fucking 4 burner.......... Good read though!!!!!


We use litres here so I didn't pick up on that, ya big huh lol.


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## justugh (Jun 15, 2017)

a mongo frog said:


> And who mentioned the 500 gallon tank for a fucking 4 burner.......... Good read though!!!!!


the 500 tank would be me 

feed the burners and a supply to run gennys if the power went out .......i want to do hydro as it reduces overhead once all the gear has been gotten and set up


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## Budley Doright (Jun 16, 2017)

justugh said:


> the 500 tank would be me
> 
> feed the burners and a supply to run gennys if the power went out .......i want to do hydro as it reduces overhead once all the gear has been gotten and set up


How many plants are you allowed?


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## chemphlegm (Jun 16, 2017)

a mongo frog said:


> And who mentioned the 500 gallon tank for a fucking 4 burner.......... Good read though!!!!!


 gotta read between the posts to catch the details mate


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## chemphlegm (Jun 16, 2017)

justugh said:


> the 500 tank would be me
> 
> feed the burners and a supply to run gennys if the power went out .......i want to do hydro as it reduces overhead once all the gear has been gotten and set up


who told you hydro growing will be cheaper than promix in buckets?
I cost me hundreds monthly to run hydro/72 plants. The bills were near double what they are now in my
humble promix/organicare/water grow and that means I can afford better equip, more watts, more genetics, and generally have more fun. and to top that shit I havent employed my wet/dry vac in years since I raftered my hydro equip....lol otherwise in was on standby with another in case of failure.....


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## Dr. Who (Jun 16, 2017)

justugh said:


> hey
> 
> OK we all know Co2 good ........i moved out of a illegal area into a legal one so some of my methods are no longer need to be used like bottle Co2/mash buckets
> 
> ...


1: You get about a 4/5ths gallon of water for every gallon of propane burned (0.81 to be exact).

2: Large tank.

3: The environmental controller of choice now-a-days is AUTOPILOT..... I prefer the environ controller with an added Co2 Monitor/controller to control Temps/RH/PPM. Be sure to get a water cooled one and have a cooling tank that the water cycles though. www.4hydroponics.com/grow-room/co2

4&5: I doubt your space is all bloom? You only need to gas in bloom. The return in veg to cost = NOT worth it. Anyway, I bet a 4 burner would do fine. 
Please note that over 1200ppm is not worth attempting to do......Any increase in plant response to 1500 is far to hard to maintain by any grower to even try. The light intensity needed is almost impossible to do. The temps and RH are hard to maintain, so all this makes it not cost effective or for the _vast_ majority of growers - impossible. 800 is easy and effective, while 1300 is the basic ceiling for supplementing Co2 in growing. You can go up to 1500 but, your not even going to be able to deliver the needed Umals in light intensity to actually allow the plant to use that high a ppm.....*ANYTHING over 1500 ppm is useless - PERIOD....
*
_*Pounds of CO2 emitted per million British thermal units (Btu) of propane - 139.0 OR 3.0 Kg of Co2 per Kg of propane burned*_

Time for you to do your own math - I gave you the key - You have to find burn rates for specific burners.

Something to consider: The use of propane to increase Co2 rates has a problem built in. It produces ethylene gas as a side effect of the combustion process. Ethylene gas causes plants to ripen faster. Not good for what we want to do. this was always a problem in greenhouse work... it's why a "sealed" room and generating Co2 by propane, is not the best idea. You'll need to use that enviro controller to run exhaust and cooling for that "reset" of the room's temps/RH to relieve the build up of ethylene too.

6: It won't hurt. I used to run an exhaust cycle right after lights out. I wanted that big temp swing for natural coloring and i wanted the excess RH out for night.

7: You got it right! Hang it...

Need to ask a question - fire away!

Good final season for Capaldi,,,eh? I really like Bill! Wish she would stay on ... Wild rumor mill on the next Doc eh? Female/gay/non-white - Just give me someone I can believe in.....


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## justugh (Jun 17, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> who told you hydro growing will be cheaper than promix in buckets?
> I cost me hundreds monthly to run hydro/72 plants. The bills were near double what they are now in my
> humble promix/organicare/water grow and that means I can afford better equip, more watts, more genetics, and generally have more fun. and to top that shit I havent employed my wet/dry vac in years since I raftered my hydro equip....lol otherwise in was on standby with another in case of failure.....


just running the numbers 
it completely removes the whole soil cost plus augments cost 

it does increase the Feed and the balancing cost (ph aqua sheild) ...and the power needed if using a water chiller 

but the over all amount it yeilds 1 plant can pay for the whole op make the other plants sheer profit 
1 plant sent me and 3 buddies to 2014 devner cup (plane tickets and hotel) it cost me 110 bucks (power feed seed ) avg about 1 buck a day (some days more some days less 90 cent 1.10 kind of shit with adding extra stuff or system not needing it ) 



Dr. Who said:


> 1: You get about a 4/5ths gallon of water for every gallon of propane burned (0.81 to be exact).
> 
> 2: Large tank.
> 
> ...


they have broken all know concepts to the show.....he is on his 13th 
with that they did to save his planet and not push the button .......they have limited him to only 13th regens other wise they would of said the 14 15 the 16 doctor is here telling us the story is going to go on 

it ends with him......i do like him he reminds me of tom baker with the way he takes/reacts to stuff


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## Budley Doright (Jun 17, 2017)

justugh said:


> just running the numbers
> it completely removes the whole soil cost plus augments cost
> 
> it does increase the Feed and the balancing cost (ph aqua sheild) ...and the power needed if using a water chiller
> ...


If set up properly I'm thinking Hydro would be less labor intensive as well in a larger grow and doubt you'll be using a wet vac, I know I don't lol. As for the cost of each system, based on yield and speed of turn over that's an interesting question, but also there is the organic thing if taking it to market (legally). I have found that not once have I been asked if it was organically grown in any of my trunk transactions lol. 
Can't wait to see this up and running, keep us posted.


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## chemphlegm (Jun 17, 2017)

You hit it spot on with the labor man! moving shit and dirt is a big chore for an old man these days

I register legal people and they ALL demand organic style mj. This was one of the deciding factors for me to change from my beloved
hydro awesome system/program to organic style pro mix/poop. I could not find one bottled nutrient system that would perform well in multiple flood and drain trays. thats when I found the savings too. I loved me hydro too dammit. like many people I started in the 70's with homemade shit, and yes, a wet and vac was necessary, and one on standby. Recently I used one to change out my reservoirs. I had 7 30 gallon reservoirs in (perpetual)flower and 2 more 20 gallon in veg. thats a bunch of water to move every week. my wet vac would suck and pump at the same time as well as clean up spills/floods. My RH control was* double *the cost it is now. I keep a tight watch on the killowatt meters.


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## Budley Doright (Jun 17, 2017)

All of my res's have hose bibs so it's just a matter of opening a valve, but yup a wet vac works to . I was really considering drain to waste due to res temp issues but the chiller has solved all that. There is a lab here that has a line of organic certified nutes for hydro but I haven't taken the plunge yet, they admit their salts produce more, and I've had good luck with them.


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## justugh (Jun 17, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> If set up properly I'm thinking Hydro would be less labor intensive as well in a larger grow and doubt you'll be using a wet vac, I know I don't lol. As for the cost of each system, based on yield and speed of turn over that's an interesting question, but also there is the organic thing if taking it to market (legally). I have found that not once have I been asked if it was organically grown in any of my trunk transactions lol.
> Can't wait to see this up and running, keep us posted.





chemphlegm said:


> You hit it spot on with the labor man! moving shit and dirt is a big chore for an old man these days
> 
> I register legal people and they ALL demand organic style mj. This was one of the deciding factors for me to change from my beloved
> hydro awesome system/program to organic style pro mix/poop. I could not find one bottled nutrient system that would perform well in multiple flood and drain trays. thats when I found the savings too. I loved me hydro too dammit. like many people I started in the 70's with homemade shit, and yes, a wet and vac was necessary, and one on standby. Recently I used one to change out my reservoirs. I had 7 30 gallon reservoirs in (perpetual)flower and 2 more 20 gallon in veg. thats a bunch of water to move every week. my wet vac would suck and pump at the same time as well as clean up spills/floods. My RH control was* double *the cost it is now. I keep a tight watch on the killowatt meters.


ok guys just know .......51% organic and 49% chemical is still thought as organic (the ppl growing 100% organic can not afford to stay in biz the yield it makes vs the cost of everything will bankrupt anyone )

the way around your trouble on that in hydro is the micros u add into it to keep the system balanced (the NPK and trace stuff will be chemical based as they do the best in a hydro system)
as for the organics it is...... vegan tea....... AN line of micros ....FF line of micros and root drenches....aqua shield 
then when u know it harvest time do a good flush ......water for 5 to 7 days(add in a flusher agent if u want) then do your 48 darkness so the cells in the plant have nothing to make the smoke harsh 
just to keep a strait face and not be a lier at least 51% of the feed mix has to been organic based .....u get that by increasing the amount of micros u have added doubling or tripling what calls on bottles to keep the right ratio 

u have grown organic hydro


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## a mongo frog (Jun 17, 2017)

justugh said:


> ok guys just know .......51% organic and 49% chemical is still thought as organic (the ppl growing 100% organic can not afford to stay in biz the yield it makes vs the cost of everything will bankrupt anyone )
> 
> the way around your trouble on that in hydro is the micros u add into it to keep the system balanced (the NPK and trace stuff will be chemical based as they do the best in a hydro system)
> as for the organics it is...... vegan tea....... AN line of micros ....FF line of micros and root drenches....aqua shield
> ...


Very interesting read. Was just wondering what is the deal on the organic/bottled plant food. Why not just use bottled plant food or dry nutrients?


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## justugh (Jun 17, 2017)

a mongo frog said:


> Very interesting read. Was just wondering what is the deal on the organic/bottled plant food. Why not just use bottled plant food or dry nutrients?


it is all bottled

see some are organic based (poop)
some are chemical based (prue raw NPK in water with some coloring to help tell what is what)

any dry food is going to be a chemical based product unless is it a tea type thing where the solutions brews a few days before use

they are talking about market selling the crop ........alot of shops if they hear hydro and chemical based they will offer less money per LB ( due to idoits not flushing correctly given hydro a bad name )....u say the word organic and shops/ ppl will buy it up (yuppies and hippies and hipsters)

my last posting is just pointing out if the feed ratio is 51% organic based items the weed is thought of as organically grown


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## a mongo frog (Jun 17, 2017)

justugh said:


> it is all bottled
> 
> see some are organic based (poop)
> some are chemical based (prue raw NPK in water with some coloring to help tell what is what)
> ...


I see. I know what you mean. Where i live its a little different. All you need is some great weed and lab results, and your ready to vend. Here is a lab result from like 10 days ago i think. Out side of showing them something they don't have and might need the test for chemical pesticides/fungicides and mold spores must come back as none detected. And they'll do a mold test to, to see if there are any spores in the bud.


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## justugh (Jun 17, 2017)

a mongo frog said:


> I see. I know what you mean. Where i live its a little different. All you need is some great weed and lab results, and your ready to vend. Here is a lab result from like 10 days ago i think. Out side of showing them something they don't have and might need the test for chemical pesticides/fungicides and mold spores must come back as none detected. And they'll do a mold test to, to see if there are any spores in the bud.


what state 
i am oregon they have fucked the pouch on this one 
heat gaschromatagraph testing (dumbest thing on the market cured correctly before test the number they show will be 3-4% off) to get the right numbers u need to test mid cure
no mold test required


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## a mongo frog (Jun 17, 2017)

justugh said:


> what state
> i am oregon they have fucked the pouch on this one
> heat gaschromatagraph testing (dumbest thing on the market cured correctly before test the number they show will be 3-4% off) to get the right numbers u need to test mid cure
> no mold test required


California.


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## Budley Doright (Jun 18, 2017)

I'm not sure about anywhere but here and I'm only dealing in agro/dairy but the fields can only have certified organic nutrients and poop. If so much as a pesticide from an adjoining farm blows in to the field it will lose creditation for 5 years.


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## chemphlegm (Jun 18, 2017)

justugh said:


> ok guys just know .......
> 
> 1) 51% organic and 49% chemical is still thought as organic = FALSE
> 2) the ppl growing 100% organic can not afford to stay in biz = FALSE
> ...


I love ya but sorry, I believe you have been misled on all 6 points


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## justugh (Jun 18, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> I love ya but sorry, I believe you have been misled on all 6 points


 how am i wrong ....to just say someone is wrong with nothing else to it is not help it opinion ....if u want to debate put something to back up your statement

1 yes is it is as long as the feed is most organic then it is thought of as organically grown
2 show me one person growing weed 100% organic that has made it more then 2 years in the retail market ....it can not be done they will go bankrupt with permits testing fees feed cost vs the amount of over all volume they can sell .....400 bucks a batch test now anything under 2 lbs testing is not worth as the market is only allowing 1800 a lb 

3 the cost of all organic feed is much more then chemical feeds and the amount they yeild is under chemical feed then u have to rem u need to treat for pest and micro imbalance.....then u have the feed itself once u break that seal most of them say 9 months if u store in cool room wit no direct light .......so buying in bulk is not a option unless u are running a massive field 

4 hmmmmm yah that is 100% right that is common sense when it comes to making top shelf weed for sale it clears the last of anything in there that will give it a harsh taste and make the glands look prettier (assuming u were smart enough to use UVb light on them )

5 again your wrong .......if the feed plan is most organic then it is organically grown (as for pesticides and fungicides and all those keep a clean area use filters on the intakes ) never once had a issuse in 5 years that caused me to use anything along those lines 

6 again mostly organic it is thought of as organically grown


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## chemphlegm (Jun 19, 2017)

its 95% btw, not 51% and Not "most" to be organic..... but if you make up your own rules to judge by sure, 51% might work lol
there is no organic cert for marijuana so any standard you may be thinking is fantasy and conjecture.

you believe that some uv light and some pure water for a week will magically clear your plant of "the last of _anything_ in there that that will give it a harsh taste" is troubling at this stage of marijuana cultivation/progression. 
. do you have a feeding chart that shows a 7 days of pure water for me to study? I never seen one.

thats a couple points to ponder, there are more and I can tell your heels are dug in, I got no desire to uproot you or your ideals.
just pointing out a couple very well known facts that dont jibe with your opinions. 

and # 3...are you serious? read your thoughts slowly= "3 *
1the cost of all organic feed is much more then chemical feeds *_No it isnt_*
2and the amount they yeild is under chemical feed *_ No its' not_*
3then u have to rem u need to treat for pest and micro imbalance *_No you dont_*
4.....then u have the feed itself once u break that seal most of them say 9 months if u store in cool room wit no direct light *_ Um *what?*_*
*
I grow organic style and have proven 1,2,3,4 ^^to be false year after year after year.

I didnt say you were wrong only misled, and I still believe it.


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## justugh (Jun 24, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> its 95% btw, not 51% and Not "most" to be organic..... but if you make up your own rules to judge by sure, 51% might work lol
> there is no organic cert for marijuana so any standard you may be thinking is fantasy and conjecture.
> 
> you believe that some uv light and some pure water for a week will magically clear your plant of "the last of _anything_ in there that that will give it a harsh taste" is troubling at this stage of marijuana cultivation/progression.
> ...


i will be back to give u a good debate 

right now in the middle of repairing my computer ........fucking SSD drive fault i am going back to the old mech ones ....day or 4 before i am back i got alot to fix and caught up on with only 3mbs better then dail up ........


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## justugh (Jun 26, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> its 95% btw, not 51% and Not "most" to be organic..... but if you make up your own rules to judge by sure, 51% might work lol
> there is no organic cert for marijuana so any standard you may be thinking is fantasy and conjecture.
> 
> you believe that some uv light and some pure water for a week will magically clear your plant of "the last of _anything_ in there that that will give it a harsh taste" is troubling at this stage of marijuana cultivation/progression.
> ...



got it to a working state at least .........still have to get all the programs i lost SSD drives are a good idea but i am not getting one again untill 10 years from now work out the bugs and get something in a TB at least 256gbs is just to small for me 

1 it is basic if u use 51% organic feed the plant is thought of as organically grown if u use 51% chemical feed it is chemically grown........that is just basic grade school logic 
1a really think about it is how they sell items all the time ......look at food in the stores they list organic ingredients on the package but at the end there is always something chemical added in for some reason but because the bulk of the materials are organic they sell it as organic 

2 flushing a plant is basic growing how do u flush a plant ........well organically u just use water and pass about 1.5 times the amount of soil in water removing anything u built up in the soil ......as for the UV that makes more resin weight it is just smart to use it as it makes your trim give u oil returns in the 10-15% range just like bud runs .......the killing of the light for 3 days is another trick to make the plant look prettier for sale and it also makes the plant empty out of what ever is in the cells given u a cleaner smoke.........flushing a plant is the simplest thing in the world ( if u are using chemical feeds as your base u are flushing the plant of salts about every 3-4 weeks ) 

3 really ........ok look at any store anywhere .........compare the prices of what chemical feed cost (plus the power of it ) compared to organic feed 
3a sorry i know for a fact that is right 6 years of experiments with weed ,........the best combo is a mostly organic feed with chemicals added in to push the plant 
3b yah u need to keep the micros in balance organic is the best for this as it feeds the micros ...chemical kills them off the salts so u need to resupply them ......as for bugs organic stuff can work but it takes several apps of it to control the issue (PM white flies gnats )
3c .....u did not know that organic based feeds have a shelf life once they have been cracked up .....best u can do is about 9 months (this is stored cool out of direct light and never allowing cross contamination from other feeds )....the feeds them self say this on the bottles 

i am not misleading i run the numbers .........if u are willing to bust your ass and take a lower profit margin that is your call .......i want to make 5 million bucks in the next 12 years and retire at 50 .....i know my product and the numbers (hell hydro is the best for profit margins little more work but the yield and the numbers on the test in the end make up for it 3 fold) 

i personally needs to sell 4 lbs a month to cover all the bills plus put 1000 bucks in cash in my pocket end of the month ..........can do that off 2 plants running hydro or 4 to 5 plants in soil (auto plants )


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## chemphlegm (Jun 26, 2017)

we start here;

1) USDA- "Produce* can be called organic if* it’s certified to *have grown on soil *that had *no prohibited substances applied for three years prior to harvest*. Prohibited substances include most *synthetic fertilizers and pesticides*. t (see other considerations in “Organic 101: Allowed and Prohibited Substances”). https://www.usda.gov

2) can you tell me exactly what running 1.5 x the water:soil does for the plant? I'm still learning, but I know that this will not affect flavor, effects, overfeeding. I thought this kills beneficial orgs, removes oxygen from the root zone, and slows down bio activity immediately.

I spent hundreds a month growing with Dutch Masters Gold compared to 100 bucks every quarter for my organic fert needs. not sure how that relates to commercial auto flower production, but I save a fortune yearly using organic composted dry fertilizer with no expiration date on dry composted fertilizers.

and thank you for being civil. I enjoy exploring this and am open to new concepts. I used to think it was the salt ferts that fired up growers on this subject....lol


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## justugh (Jun 28, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> we start here;
> 
> 1) USDA- "Produce* can be called organic if* it’s certified to *have grown on soil *that had *no prohibited substances applied for three years prior to harvest*. Prohibited substances include most *synthetic fertilizers and pesticides*. t (see other considerations in “Organic 101: Allowed and Prohibited Substances”). https://www.usda.gov
> 
> ...


1 hahahahaha i know farms that put shit on the field and they claim it is organic ......they use it in the first few weeks of the plants life so it does not show up in testing in the final product .......hell if i knew that was the wording i would of blackmailed there asses some of them were majors dicks

2 flush removes any left off feed that is still in the soil .........try it once on 1 strain u have 2 plants for .......flushing it removes all the left over food and also strips away what is left in the soil so there is nothing left the plant can really pull in from forcing it to use the last of the chemicals it sucked up from the soil in it cells .....it makes a smoother smoke ( have u ever hit some weed that snap crackled or popped when there was no seed inside ......that is from the left over chemicals in the cells of the plant ....makes the smoke harsh ........u want to pull a 2 foot bong clear the hitter in one and blow out with very little cough that is what flushing does).......and if u used chemicals in your feed like fox farms lines it removes the salt build up that kills off the micros and puts the PH out of balance

debating is fun plus not in TnT so civil is the standard .....TNT all rules are off (that is what i was taught )


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## chemphlegm (Jun 28, 2017)

justugh said:


> 1 hahahahaha i know farms that put shit on the field and they claim it is organic ......they use it in the first few weeks of the plants life so it does not show up in testing in the final product .......hell if i knew that was the wording i would of blackmailed there asses some of them were majors dicks
> 
> 2 flush removes any left off feed that is still in the soil .........try it once on 1 strain u have 2 plants for .......flushing it removes all the left over food and also strips away what is left in the soil so there is nothing left the plant can really pull in from forcing it to use the last of the chemicals it sucked up from the soil in it cells .....it makes a smoother smoke ( have u ever hit some weed that snap crackled or popped when there was no seed inside ......that is from the left over chemicals in the cells of the plant ....makes the smoke harsh ........u want to pull a 2 foot bong clear the hitter in one and blow out with very little cough that is what flushing does).......and if u used chemicals in your feed like fox farms lines it removes the salt build up that kills off the micros and puts the PH out of balance
> 
> debating is fun plus not in TnT so civil is the standard .....TNT all rules are off (that is what i was taught )


welcome back!
what is TNT?(i'm outta the loop)

I do know about flushing. used to grow with bottled nutrients, their feed chart showed the ppm's lessen at the end of flower for a week(memory?) I did run pure water at res change for a minute or so to prevent salt buildup on my hydroton. I have had weed that was pushed, fed to its max to the end and you are right it sucked.. 
so I subscribed to the fact that the issue was over feeding, not under flushing.
when I followed the directions there was no two week flush and all was superb.
I dont use bottles now instead organic composted chicken shit, added throughout the flowering cycle and water only to the end. 
I end up skipping the last addition because I usually see undissolved compost remaining in the top soil. I've added it to the end with no issues also. 
I will say I found the max these plants can take without issues or over feeding organically. I hate fert chems these days. I can taste over fed plants and when I do I say you overfed, never mention flushing is all. I'm thinking they are closely related and share may ideals.


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## justugh (Jun 28, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> welcome back!
> what is TNT?(i'm outta the loop)
> 
> I do know about flushing. used to grow with bottled nutrients, their feed chart showed the ppm's lessen at the end of flower for a week(memory?) I did run pure water at res change for a minute or so to prevent salt buildup on my hydroton. I have had weed that was pushed, fed to its max to the end and you are right it sucked..
> ...


 TnT stands for the section called Toke and Talk

organic is where the taste comes in but adding the fox farms powder trio (open seame beastie bloom and cha ching ) will increase the weight of the plant more then enough to justify the cost of the feed .......i been grown for 6 years now i used almost every feed out there including littler start up organic (lama poop) 

just know the dry stuff u are talking about i think of them as soil augments .......not feed feed is the stuff u add into the water to give to the plants 

right now the best results i seen in soil is with a super strong supersoil mix with just feed to push the plant more (personally i like to see the tips of the leaves get little fried i know the feed is to strong then i back it down and hold there for life of the plant to make it produce most it can 

gh grow ...organic
gh bloom ....organic
rapid start....chemical with horomons
b-52 ...chemical (lit multi vits for plants) 
honey by humbolt ....organic
bud candy.......50/50 mix really chemical organic 
and fox farms trio ....power house chemicals ( use these a total of 7 ot 8 times so no need to flush just make sure bloom is 10 or 12 mls to help the micros)


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## a mongo frog (Jun 28, 2017)

justugh said:


> rapid start....chemical with horomons


Save your money. Take it from me, I've wasted boat loads of money on root enhancers over the years. The best root enhancer is starting with good roots. Ive used the roots excel, the rapid start, and a few more. Better roots now then ever before not using any rooting enhancers. Lets face it rapid start is expensive buying it on a larger level.


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## justugh (Jun 28, 2017)

a mongo frog said:


> Save your money. Take it from me, I've wasted boat loads of money on root enhancers over the years. The best root enhancer is starting with good roots. Ive used the roots excel, the rapid start, and a few more. Better roots now then ever before not using any rooting enhancers. Lets face it rapid start is expensive buying it on a larger level.


it is but out of all of them it does the best .....and with auto plants it is all about the root mass u can get in shortest time ( no transplanting autos they do not take it well if the roots stunt do to small planter that is all she wrote it will not produce enough to justify the cost of feed and testing and your work )

rem auto plants are about 76 days total life from the time it goes in as a seed to the time u cut it down .........u do not have 3 months of veggie 

all the feeding and tricks i learned on autos are passing over to photo plants with great results


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