# War Breaks Out Within The Marijuana Legalization Movement



## to serve man (Oct 3, 2009)

War breaks out within the marijuana legalization movement (part 1)
September 26, 12:54 PMDetroit Drug Policy ExaminerBruce Cain

A war is breaking out between the Cannabusiness Community, that hopes to profit from draconian regulation of Marijuana, and the pillars of the drug reform movement that insist that the self cultivation of Marijuana become an untaxed, unregulated sacred right. The first shots were fired by a speech by Jack Herer and the firing of Dennis Peron from Oaksterdam University. Could this be our "Concord" moment?

Over the past few weeks two things have occurred that should be of paramount interest to both the majority of American Citizens favoring the Re-Legalization of Marijuana and even those that don't yet support Marijuana Re-Legalization.
First on Saturday September 12th, 2009, Jack Herer made a short but historic speech at Oregon's HempStalk Festival. And despite suffering a stroke and heart attack, back in 2000, it is abundantly clear that he put every ounce of energy and anger into this speech. It is clear that this anger is directed at the Cannabusiness community as you will understand by the end of this article. Here were the most important words from that fiery speech:

"I don't want to f**king give the United States government one f**king dollar of taxes. I think that they should go to f**king jail for getting you and me and 20 million people getting arrested for pot. It is the safest thing you can do in the universe. And that is what we are going to do in California. Okay? Come over to my booth, over there, and I will see you next time."

In this video Jack Herer vehemently denounced the attempts by the Cannabusiness community to push for the government taxation and regulation of our Marijuana during his speech at the HempStalk Festival in Oregon (09/12/2009). Unfortunately he suffered a heart attack shortly after delivering what could become his most important speech.

Next on Tuesday September 15th, 2009, Dennis Peron was fired from Oaksterdam University. According to journalist Craig Canada, his firing was the result of Peron's opposition to his employer's state wide initiative to "tax and regulate" Marijuana.

Dennis Peron announced on Tuesday (09/15/2009) that he returned from Burning Man to discover he had been fired from Oaksterdam University because of his opposition to taxing and regulating medical marijuana. Oaksterdam University has announced it intends to spend a million dollars to promote an initiative that would tax, regulate and control marijuana by city and county, as well as at the state level.

What both Herer and Peron are reacting to is the great "bait and switch" on Marijuana policy by the Cannabusiness community and our very own government. In a nutshell what is going on is a reaction to the fact that a majority of American Citizens -- 52% according to a 2009 Zogby poll -- now support the complete Legalization of Marijuana for all citizens: not just the sick and dying.

What should also be made clear is that both Jack Herer and Dennis Peron are two of the most important and respected members of the Marijuana Re-Legalization movement. And despite this they have been demonized by groups that purport to support Marijuana Re-Legalization for many years: NORML, DPA and MPP.
Jack Herer is the author of the "Emperor Wears No Clothes" which was first published in 1985. This book clearly documented the censored history of Hemp (e.g., Marijuana or Cannabis) and essentially became the "bible" for the Marijuana reform movement. You can read (or preferably purchase) the entire book by clicking here:

Dennis Peron has also made incredible contributions to the movement towards Marijuana Re-Legalization as documented by journalist Craig Canada:
Peron has been hailed as the father of the medical marijuana movement and was the guiding force and co-author of California's Proposition 215. He became a marijuana dealer after returning from Viet Nam to San Francisco in 1969 and through the 70s he ran the Big Top marijuana supermarket from his home. In 1978 he organized Proposition W which directed the district attorney to stop arresting people for possessing, transferring, or growing marijuana. Though it was passed by 56% of the electorate, it was never implemented by the Feinstein Administration. In 1991 he organized Proposition P which made enforcement of laws against medical marijuana the city's lowest priority. It passed by 79%. In 1993 he opened the Church Street Compassion Center in San Francisco's Castro District. In 1995 he opened the larger San Francisco Cannabis Buyers Club at 1444 Market Street where the medical marijuana movement was born. In 1996 he co-authored The Compassionate Use Act of 1996 and organized the signature drive that put Proposition 215 on the ballot.
Dennis Peron sacked by Oaksterdamn U for opposing marijuana tax

Together they both were instrumental in the authoring and passage of the first Medical Marijuana Initiative in the United States which is now known as "Proposition 215," which was passed in California in 1996. It was the first palpable evidence that the American People had changed their minds about Marijuana and were now poised to do what really needed to be done: and that would be to completely Re-Legalize Marijuana for ALL adult American Citizens.

This sea change in attitude, by the American People, is unsettling to both, the Cannabusiness Community and the Government, because they both profit enormously by treating Marijuana (e.g., Cannabis) through a policy of prohibition or through a quasi-prohibition model known as the Medical Marijuana model. They both know that if adult Americans ever get the right to "grow their own," without taxation or regulation their profits will evaporate over night.

Who is the Cannabusiness Community?
First let us consider the Cannabusiness community. This community evolved after the first Medical Marijuana Initiative, Proposition 215, gave Californian citizens the right to consume Cannabis in November 2006. In the 13 years since Proposition 215 was passed 12 additional states have passed similar initiatives and many more states are poised to do the same thing in the next couple of years. It should be noted that many of the original supporters of this initiative - including it's authors Peron and Herer -- saw "Medical Marijuana" as but a stepping stone towards complete Cannabis Re-Legalization. And many activists use the term Re-Legalization to remind other Americans that for most of American history, Cannabis was, in fact, completely legal to both cultivate and consume. That ended in 1938 with the passage of the Marijuana Tax Act.
So in the 13 years since "Medical Marijuana" became legal a very predictable trend began to emerge. "Medical Marijuana" dispensaries began to open in all of the 13 states and enterprising corporations began to get in the business of offering "Medical Marijuana Cards" to distinguish the "real" Medical Cannabis users from the "recreational" Cannabis users. Of course the whole thing is a sham since in California you can basically pay your annual $150 fee and be given a "Medical Marijuana Card" for a stubbed toe. But that is not the point.
The point is that these Cannabusinesses were now making literally millions of dollars each year and the last thing they wanted to see is for these profits to evaporate in the wake of complete Cannabis Re-Legalization. They knew that, if American adults could cultivate their own Marijuana as they can presently produce their own "home brewed" beer and wine, their empire would quickly dissolve like castles in the sand at your local beach. So to protect their new empire they began using their money to steer the activist community away from the true Re-Legalization that both Peron and Herer foresaw. Because if Peron, Herer and other succeeded at allowing Americans to "grow their own" without taxation or regulation, their financial empires would crumble to the ground. And frankly, that is exactly what needs to happen right now.
And while a comprehensive analysis is beyond the scope of this present article I can provide a few examples that make clear this is exactly what the Cannabusiness community is up to.

* In early 2009 Rob Kampia, the head of the Marijuana Policy Project (MPP), began to embark on the 14th Medical Marijuana Initiative in Arizona. But their was something markedly different about this initiative. The last 13 initiatives granted the patient, or a caregiver, to grow at least 12 plants to provide "medicine" to the patient. But the Arizona initiative is actually structured to eventually prohibit all self-cultivation. It does this by insisting that, unless you are more than 25 miles from a dispensary, you will NOT be able to cultivate anything: you will be forced to buy it from the dispensary. Even an unabashed "stoner" would realize that eventually no one will be able to grow and your only option will be to buy your Cannabis from the "dispensary" at prices that range from $300 to $500 an ounce.

* In August 2009 Allen St. Pierre was discussing the great success of "Medical Marijuana Cards" on the radio show "Time for Hemp." Allen is the head of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML). He was just ecstatic over the fact that Oregon now has 25,000 Medial Marijuana consumers who now pay a $150 dollar annual fee to the Cannabusiness community for the privilege of having legal access to Marijuana. It is insightful to recognize that the Cannabusinessman, currently making 3.75 million in gross profits, each year from the issuance of these cards, is none other than Paul Stanford who heads both the "Hemp and Cannabis Foundation" (THCF) and the "Campaign for the Restoration and Regulation of Hemp" (CRRH). Basically the THCF is responsible for the distribution of "Medial Marijuana Cards" and the CRRH is responsible for making sure we adult Americans never get the right to grow our own Marijuana so that Stanford and his Cannabusiness buddies can continue to profit at our expense. Ironically THCF was a major sponsor of the HempStalk festival (09/12/2009) where Jack Herer spoke and succumbed to a heart attack immediately after walking off of the stage. At the beginning of the video of Jack's speech you will notice that it is the THCF banner that virtually dwarfs the stage.

* This week The 2009 National NORML Conference  YES WE CANNABIS! - is being held Thursday, September 24 through Saturday, September 26 at the Grand Hyatt in San Francisco, CA. One of the panels at the conference asks "Has support for legalization reached a critical mass/tipping point?" One of the 3 participants on the panel is Rich Lee, Proprietor of Oaksterdam University and Campaigner for The Regulate, Control, and Tax Cannabis Act of 2010.&#8242; You should be aware that I have already made reference to Rich Lee. He is the guy that recently fired Dennis Peron because Dennis is opposed to the "taxation and regulation" of Marijuana.

So then who comprises the Cannabusiness Community? It is comprised of "reform organizations" including the "Marijuana Policy Project," NORML and the "Drug Policy Alliance." It is also comprised of dispensary owners, "Medical Marijuana" growers and distributors of "Medical Marijuana Cards" such as Paul Stanford. And what do they all have in common? They do not want you to ever have the right to grow your own Marijuana: even as an adult.

Now all of these Cannabusiness people would argue that this is not the case. But even this short list of examples, above, make clear that they are all lying through their teeth.

And why don't they want you to ever have the right to grow your own Marijuana? Because if adults did have the sacred, inalienable right to "grow their own" Americans could grow all the Marijuana they needed for free in their gardens or they could grow it for about $20 dollars an ounce under LED lamps within their own homes. And that would put an end to "Medical Marijuana Cards" and drastically reduce the price that you currently pay for you Cannabis both on the streets and through these stupid dispensaries. For those that don't consume Marijuana let me give you an idea of what consumers are now paying for both "illegal" street Marijuana and Marijuana bought through the "dispensaries;" it is between $300 to $500 an ounce!
Now you can buy low quality "dirt weed" for as little as $120 an ounce, but you will only get a headache from smoking it and it is far worse for your health because you will have to smoke more of it. There is no reason that any American Citizen should have to settle for "dirt weed" when they could be growing their own for free.
It is instructive to consider that Marijuana, even according to the Cannabusiness Community, is far safer than drinking beer. And do you really think you should need to spend $200 a year for a "Medial Beer Card" to give you the privilege of drinking beer? So why should anyone have to pay $150 dollars each year for the "privilege" of consuming Cannabis? Is it really necessary to provide any additional information to make the claim that these Cannabusiness people are greedy, psychotic nuts that are really just out to screw us out of our hard earned money and liberties?

Their deceptive behavior reminds me of a favorite quote from Upton Sinclair:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it."
Upton Sinclair

Well, I can only hope that this essay helps these Cannabusiness "bait and switchers" understand the utter hypocrisy of their attempts to screw the American People. It is never too late to repent and change your stupid attempts to "tax and regulate" our right to "grow our own" Cannabis.

Why Untaxed, Unregulated Self-Cultivation Need to be Made Legal Now
And there are a number of other good reasons, for Marijuana consumers and abstainers alike, to demand that our right to grow (e.g., our Marijuana Rights). And this goes far beyond the "money" issue of the greedy Cannabusiness community.
By taking the "black market" profits out of Cannabis consumption and cultivation a number of great things would occur almost immediately:

* The Mexican Drug Cartels would go out of business in a matter of weeks.
* The sick and the poor would instantly have access to free, or at least cheap, medicine.
* The police would no longer have an excuse to invade you home in hopes of discovering a few Marijuana plants.

It should be understood that none of these things can occur as long as we allow the Cannabusiness community to push their quasi-prohibitionist "Medical Marijuana" model upon us. Under this model they are the only winners and the vast majority of non-violent Cannabis consumers become mere victims: just to insure that they make a profit.

The issues here are complex and not well covered in the mainstream media. To help you better understand these complexities I have authored the MERP Model which provides a justification for untaxed, unregulated self cultivation as well as a road map for implementing our right to "grow our own." In addition I have created a website where you can read and watch numerous videos where I explain the need to implement the MERP Model immediately. Here is the link to the website:
MERP Headquarters
The Marijuana Re-Legalization Policy Project (MRPP) = "MERP"

What You Can Do to Help Re-Legalize Marijuana for all Adult Americans
Regardless of whether you consume Marijuana I encourage all that agree with this article to get on my mailing list so that I can keep you up to date on the progress of the MERP strategy to make "self cultivation" a right of all American Citizens. You can sign up for the mailing list for free by clicking here.
In the second part of this series I will explain how the government is also conspiring to create a "Government Marijuana Dispensary" system that will force you to buy your Marijuana from the same government that has been busting cultivators and consumers for 72 years because they insisted that Marijuana was too dangerous. Ironically they now want to become your new "Marijuana Drug Dealer" and force you to pay $300 to $500 an ounce for something you could be growing for free.
My feelings about that are very similar to Jack Herer. "The Hell with that. Let me "grow my own."
In addition to this there are other things that you can do to expedite the immediate implementation of the MERP Model and end Marijuana Prohibition once and for all:

* Denounce all 2010 Marijuana Initiatives other than Jack Herer's CCHH Initiative. This is the only initiative that conforms to the MERP Model. Here is a telling excerpt from the CCHH Initiative:

"No person, individual, or corporate entity shall be arrested or prosecuted, be denied any right or privilege, nor be subject to any criminal or civil penalties for the possession, cultivation, transportation, distribution, or consumption of cannabis hemp marijuana."

All of the other initiatives are "Trojan horse" initiatives that only benefit the Cannabusiness Community. Here is a link for more information on CCHH:
California Cannabis Hemp & Health Initiative

* Withdraw all financial support to NORML, DPA, MPP and the rest of the Cannabusiness community. This does not include local chapters of NORML that are also often in agreement with the MERP Model and at odds with National NORML.
* If you attend any convention for any "drug reform" organization challenge them to explain what they are up to and insist that they grant full support and funding towards implementation of initiatives and legislation that conform to the requirements of the MERP Model.
* Call the President and your elected Representatives on a weekly basis demanding that the MERP Model is implemented immediately. You can find more information for doing this by clicking here.

As I write this Dennis Peron is without a job at Oaksterdam and Jack Herer is now lingering in a coma for his 13th day. I cannot think of a better way to commemorate these great Americans than to make sure that their dream of untaxed, unregulated Marijuana becomes a right for every adult throughout the United States. It is high time to "just say NO" to the Cannabusiness Community and our Corporately Controlled Government.
The time for action is now!
Yours in Peace and Freedom,
Bruce W. Cain
Editor of New Age Citizen
Author of the MERP Model for Marijuana Re-Legalization.

Jack Herer Initiative


----------



## ford442 (Oct 4, 2009)

people should be treated fairly!

get out your heaviest bongs - your sharpest trimming scissors - your hottest blunts - we will take oaksterdam by force on the morrow!!


----------



## Rob Roy (Oct 4, 2009)

Nice post To Serve Man. It has struck me too as odd how eager some people are to legalize and tax. Fuck that. It's bad enough we don't own our bodies already. If it ever becomes legal and taxed we will have traded one form of government control for another. No thanks.


----------



## ford442 (Oct 4, 2009)

i don't understand why pot should ever be sold legally for black market price.. that should be the main thing - bring down the price and let the money go back into actual businesses... right now the cash goes right away from the hands of the public into secret drug lord accounts and out of the country.. so, i worked out that even if nicely groomed pot was only $50 per ounce - you could still make $80,000 from 100 plants.. everyone is happy right..?


----------



## redivider (Oct 4, 2009)

tax it and regulate it. 

that's my view. use the revenue from taxes to EDUCATE americans on the dangers of REAL drugs. 

Educating the public is paramount to control the drug problem.

The current schedule system should be scrapped, it doesn't work, the DEA re-organized, and the legislation in place re-written.


----------



## dgk4life (Oct 5, 2009)

redivider said:


> tax it and regulate it.
> 
> that's my view. use the revenue from taxes to EDUCATE americans on the dangers of REAL drugs.
> 
> ...


i think we pay enough taxes thanks..


----------



## Zig Zag Zane (Oct 5, 2009)

Im for ANY reform right about now lol but still....it simply cannot be taxed, when you think of it at the most simple level, without societies and political factors involved, they're trying to tell us we have to pay money, to grow a friggin plant on our property...I see it no differently than they are trying to make me pay taxes for my serrano pepper plants, or my roses....its bullshit. Dude is right, if the government got to the very breaking point where citizens wouldnt put up with it anymore and they would be forced to legalize, they would do it ...and then swoop in and make all cannabis related shit government owned taxed regulated etc...and they would cash in. It should be a complete free-for-all with cannabis...great post to serve man. +rep


----------



## to serve man (Oct 5, 2009)

Just so everyone knows, I wasn't the author of this piece. Just saw it on another forum and decided that it was good enough to put on here. Take from it what you will and make up your own minds. I personally agree with zig zag zane in that should you tax me for growing my tomatoes? my peppers? corn? Why only cannabis? Because they know, like the article states, that they are going to loose a shit load of money if they don't, because cannabis grows freely.


----------



## redivider (Oct 5, 2009)

i'm not talking about taxing it if you grow it for yourself... i'm talking about taxing it if you grow it for sale, grown commercially.... it should be treated like lettuce, for example.

it should be taxed and regulated just like fruits and vegetables.

and all those people in jail for growing/selling cannabis, well, i feel for them, but they did break the law, so pay the price...

marijuana is a cheap enough grow to be able to control the costs enough to be able to handle the taxes..... even if it's taxed at the average 8% inventory on hand rate, and taxed at a ridiculous (actually rather normal commercial tax rate)38% of sales rate, the costs would still be very controllable, and there would be a profit margin of nearly 20-30%...easily.... 

hell, if every single other industry has some sort of regulation and taxation, why shouldn't weed be treated the same way?? if it gets legalized at some point, it should be treated like every other legitimate industry, taxes, rules, and all....


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 5, 2009)

it should be treated like any other crop... grow as much as you want, however you want to grow, and use all that you care... but if you sell it or run a business with it, you should be taxed like any other person trying to run a business in america is.

i say run it like they do with alcohol now, you can brew all the beer or shine you want as long as you dont sell it.. and if you do sell it it gets taxed and regulated just like any other american agriculture product... keep it prohibited from the youth ( yeah i know, im dick,freakin hypocrite, i was a teen, smoked like a chimney the whole time) cause you dont want a 10yr old buying it...

prohibition in the 20's showed us that outlawing a substance simply gives power and wealth to the criminal orginazations, and greatly increases crime related to the outlawed substance.

the amount of us currency that leaves the country and ends up in the hands of drug lords is more than the GDP of many, many nations in this world. wouldnt it be nice to have that cash and use it to fund more appropiate things such as infrastructure, education, SOCIAL SECURITY???what about the money currently used to house inmates in prison for minor possesion or simply possesion with intent?
the sudden emergence of a new heavy agriculture industry along with the commerce and ancillary businesses that will surely come into being the day of legalization... the economic gain has more and more potential the deeper you look at it.. tourism? major retail branding? creation of badly needed jobs and circulation of currency in a stagnant economy? the more you look at it the more good seems to emerge... and what about the product itself? imagine the quality of strains that will emerge as people compete for business... its a win win situation for everyone but the out of country drug cartels!

the primitive and ignorant position the us government takes on marijuana and other scheduled narcotics/substances is archaic at best, and there is no doubt that it causes more harm than good....
outlawing something is like trying to kill an ant infestation... by stepping on ants on at a time. for every ant you kill theres a thousand you dont even see


----------



## to serve man (Oct 5, 2009)

redivider said:


> i'm not talking about taxing it if you grow it for yourself... i'm talking about taxing it if you grow it for sale, grown commercially.... it should be treated like lettuce, for example.
> 
> it should be taxed and regulated just like fruits and vegetables.
> 
> and all those people in jail for growing/selling cannabis, well, i feel for them, but they did break the law, so pay the price...


Yes, that is if you are SELLING it. The Tax & regulate act makes it so even PATIENTS who are growing for their own pain will have to pay taxes for growing it for themselves. Everyone that grows their own will have to pay taxes for it, thats what the act is about. Not just people that selling it.

And your comment about people that are in jail because they grew &/or sold cannabis "did break the law, so should have to pay the price" is a very very disturbing thing to hear a fellow pot smoker say. So all of your dealers SHOULD go to jail because they are breaking the law? Not the laws should change? Not the laws are unjust and you are PISSED about the people that risk EVERYTHING to supply you with a plant that you love to induldge in is behind bars? Wow, sounds like I would never be showing you my grow ops or giving you any tasty homegrown. Because if I got busted you would just shrug your shoulders and say "well, since he was doing something illegal, I guess he has to 'pay the price'." Thats horseshit and completely untolerable. There is a lot wrong with that comment of yours.


----------



## Punk (Oct 5, 2009)

redivider said:


> i'm not talking about taxing it if you grow it for yourself... i'm talking about taxing it if you grow it for sale, grown commercially.... it should be treated like lettuce, for example.
> 
> it should be taxed and regulated just like fruits and vegetables.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind, there are taxes on things even if a transaction didn't occur. Property taxes is one example, you pay those every year, but you only bought the house once. 

I see no problem with paying an annual personal growers tax, if it was needed.


----------



## Zig Zag Zane (Oct 5, 2009)

Oh most definitely tax it like any other crop if for sale like any fruit or vegetable...but trying to tax people $50 an oz when they are growing themselves for personal use is madness.


----------



## DIMEBAG6604 (Oct 5, 2009)

WOW thats some crazzy shit man didnt know that much was goin on


----------



## redivider (Oct 5, 2009)

hey man, i'm just saying, it sucks they're sitting in jail... but they DID break the law in place at that particular time. they were just selling weed, non violent and all that, but they were caught breaking the law. it's just my opinion....

"don't do the crime if you can't do the time" - is what I always say....


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 5, 2009)

You aren't going to be able to have it both ways. If they tax and regulate... it means NO GROWING for personal. It means that the only LEGAL recourse is to buy the regulated weed.

I agree with Jack Herer. Weed should be GIVEN away by neighbors just like ur grandmas tomatoes are.

Take the money out of weed. No money, no police target.


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 5, 2009)

thats not nessecarily true Cracker Jax.. im not trying to but heads with you but if that is case then how can people home brew and not get taxed for it?


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 5, 2009)

Because home brew is insignificant compared to commercial brew. 

You can bet if home brew rose to 20-30% of the population, the big beer boyz would put a stop to it.... for "health" reasons.... for "your own good" 

Home growing weed is already everywhere, much more so than home brewing. It would be a problem.


----------



## AllAboutIt (Oct 5, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> it should be treated like any other crop... grow as much as you want, however you want to grow, and use all that you care... but if you sell it or run a business with it, you should be taxed like any other person trying to run a business in america is.
> 
> i say run it like they do with alcohol now, you can brew all the beer or shine you want as long as you dont sell it.. and if you do sell it it gets taxed and regulated just like any other american agriculture product... keep it prohibited from the youth ( yeah i know, im dick,freakin hypocrite, i was a teen, smoked like a chimney the whole time) cause you dont want a 10yr old buying it...
> 
> ...


 i could not have said it better my friend..i preach the same thing till my face is blue or some1 says "are you going to smoke that"?.. o yea sorry


----------



## ford442 (Oct 6, 2009)

i wonder if its legal to smoke weed in space? if a guy smokes a huge blunt traveling at four times the speed of light near Venus - does he technically have to pay taxes on said blunt? i mean - the weed would no longer have physical mass to weigh!?! now, these are the technicalities that we should be sorting out..


----------



## to serve man (Oct 6, 2009)

ford442 said:


> i wonder if its legal to smoke weed in space? if a guy smokes a huge blunt traveling at four times the speed of light near Venus - does he technically have to pay taxes on said blunt? i mean - the weed would no longer have physical mass to weigh!?! now, these are the technicalities that we should be sorting out..


HAaha! Now your talkin my language. Lets beat em at their own game. I love your line of thinking, ford.


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 6, 2009)




----------



## hempcurescancer (Oct 6, 2009)

ford442 said:


> i don't understand why pot should ever be sold legally for black market price.. that should be the main thing - bring down the price and let the money go back into actual businesses... right now the cash goes right away from the hands of the public into secret drug lord accounts and out of the country.. so, i worked out that even if nicely groomed pot was only $50 per ounce - you could still make $80,000 from 100 plants.. everyone is happy right..?


Excatly. If pot was legal we'd have a hell of a of more of it, and the usual rules of supply and demand say that maybe as product goes up, price will go down. I hope.


----------



## BostonBlogger (Oct 7, 2009)

I could see this schism starting to happen and it's going to hurt the movement more than it's going to help. Ideally, it wouldn't be taxed because tax's are evil and government sucks, etc. etc. We don't stand a chance of getting it directly to be legalized and untaxed. If we stand any chance, it'll be through paying taxes and even then, it's doubtful.

Marijuana is safe for you but it's still a 'drug' and there are societal costs by people who abuse it. They do exist and kids need to be taught to be responsible. If we have to pay taxes to let more people benefit from cannabis, then tax away.

People should be able to grow untaxed if they'd like (like vegetables) and the taxes should not (and simply cannot, to be successful) be as high as black market marijuana currently costs.


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 8, 2009)

We have turned weed into a commodity....an illegal commodity. We have no one to blame but ourselves. We are just as greedy as anyone else. Human nature cannot be denied, not even with weed.


----------



## Rob Roy (Oct 8, 2009)

redivider said:


> tax it and regulate it.
> 
> that's my view. use the revenue from taxes to EDUCATE americans on the dangers of REAL drugs.
> 
> ...


 
Why trade one level of slavery for another? If the government doesn't own my body, I don't believe they own my labor, or anyone else's.


----------



## Green Cross (Oct 8, 2009)

Rob Roy said:


> Why trade one level of slavery for another? If the government doesn't own my body, I don't believe they own my labor, or anyone else's.


Sales tax is normal. Taxing sick people who would like to grow their own meds - $50 an oz - is criminal, but so is taxing highly addictive cigarettes, when most smokers are poor. 

We the people should have the final say in this matter, but most think of the government as big brother, or uncle sam the sugar daddy, so you can bet your ass legalization is going to come with over-regulation and high taxes.

Legalization or not, most home growers will remain outlaws


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 8, 2009)

Well, don't look now, but here comes the VAT tax.

Obama is a:

Liar liar bo fire ... LIAR!


----------



## Stoneshield (Oct 10, 2009)

it would be almost the same as beer. you can make up to 20gal of beer a month i believe legaly. how many of you ppl know someone that makes beer/wine at home (i only knew one in about 10 years). how many of you know of someone thats growing pot (hopefully noone to not break the first rule). not saying it would be exzactly the same thing but it sure as hell wont be every american home growing "dope" in thier backyard. i would bet with the tax or decrim of pot you would maybe have 15% of americans growing it. compaired to the some 3-7% pending on state that are growing it now. goodtimez everyone and keep safe. let things go in calli and other states will soon follow, as soon as the see the prophit margin of calli. not saying its the best idea but if you want to smoke without the po po giving ya a hard time it would be a good route to start.


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 11, 2009)

Hey if it was legal.... who wouldn't grow dope in their yard is more like it! No???


----------



## saycheese (Oct 11, 2009)

While I agree with the overall message of this article it does fail to mention that medical marijuana patients do have the right to grow their own. I paid as much for a clone of Master OG as I did for a potted houseplant from a nursery in town. My card enables me to grow 12 plants (6mature 6 immature). That is absolutely acceptable. I am not paying the "blackmarket price" other than the $150 per year. It cost me about $400-$500 startup for a nice growing space and I can use that for years of cultivation. On average I am legally producing about 6+ ounces every 4 months. Thats about 1.5 ounces per month which is sufficient for me.


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 11, 2009)

Yes, you have the right until the feds say you don't. You grow at their whim. Believe me, they are watching....waiting.


----------



## Cakk (Oct 11, 2009)

ford442 said:


> i wonder if its legal to smoke weed in space? if a guy smokes a huge blunt traveling at four times the speed of light near Venus - does he technically have to pay taxes on said blunt? i mean - the weed would no longer have physical mass to weigh!?! now, these are the technicalities that we should be sorting out..



It's not like anyone owns space


----------



## naked gardener (Oct 11, 2009)

I agree about trading one form of gov't control for another w taxation, but really only for federal taxes--the people that spend America's $$$ on war, destruction and corporate bailouts to the greediest of motherfuckers--HOWEVER, I would prolly support LOCAL taxation--I see no problem w skimmin off the top of a local, legit highly profitable market to improve the community and the lives of it's citizens (esp. those citizens that supported legalization and are only BUYERS) and i believe if communities benefit in a clear and measurable way--other communities will follow suit. We can't usually see where fed taxes go--but a whole community can enjoy, say--a new discovery garden, a little theater or afterschool programs--alot of great programs could be sponsored by LOCAL mj tax...IMO--


----------



## PadawanBater (Oct 11, 2009)

BostonBlogger said:


> I could see this schism starting to happen and it's going to hurt the movement more than it's going to help. Ideally, it wouldn't be taxed because tax's are evil and government sucks, etc. etc. We don't stand a chance of getting it directly to be legalized and untaxed. If we stand any chance, it'll be through paying taxes and even then, it's doubtful.
> 
> Marijuana is safe for you but it's still a 'drug' and there are societal costs by people who abuse it. They do exist and kids need to be taught to be responsible. If we have to pay taxes to let more people benefit from cannabis, then tax away.
> 
> People should be able to grow untaxed if they'd like (like vegetables) and the taxes should not (and simply cannot, to be successful) be as high as black market marijuana currently costs.


 
Exactly my thoughts.

On paper, Jack's right 100%. But in reality, it'll never happen that way, so the only realistic way to go about ever getting it legally smokable is through taxing it. I'll fight to the death if they tax growing personal plants. That'll be the fuckin' day. I think I'll pass my own little tax that says anyone in government who wears pants to work has to pay me a tax, then I'll go collect at the end of every month, I mean why not, it's just as acceptable!


----------



## da07flopro (Oct 11, 2009)

redivider said:


> hey man, i'm just saying, it sucks they're sitting in jail... but they DID break the law in place at that particular time. they were just selling weed, non violent and all that, but they were caught breaking the law. it's just my opinion....
> 
> "don't do the crime if you can't do the time" - is what I always say....


WTF??? LOL With that logic you're saying that Rosa Parks Shoulda stayed her black ass in jail for refusing to give up a bus seat.LOL?? How is that Justice at all?


----------



## naked gardener (Oct 11, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> Exactly my thoughts.
> 
> On paper, Jack's right 100%. But in reality, it'll never happen that way, so the only realistic way to go about ever getting it legally smokable is through taxing it. I'll fight to the death if they tax growing personal plants. That'll be the fuckin' day. I think I'll pass my own little tax that says anyone in government who wears pants to work has to pay me a tax, then I'll go collect at the end of every month, I mean why not, it's just as acceptable!


yeah, i totally agree about taxing personal and/or medical plants being absolutely unacceptable...(and probably quite unenforceable)


----------



## Airwave (Oct 11, 2009)

to serve man said:


> * The sick and the poor would instantly have access to free, or at least cheap, medicine.


And that is why it will never be legalised.

Too many people will lose too much money.


----------



## ancap (Oct 13, 2009)

Taxation = forceful extraction of money = evil

I could never support a tax and regulate model except as a practical means of limiting the number of individuals who are being arrested for expressing their preference to smoke pot. The system is so corrupt, and people are far too willing to really support the idea of taxation that I highly doubt any legalization measure would pass where the government is prevented from looting this massive creation of wealth. This is why I pessimistically urge people to support all measures that DO NOT tax and regulate, but be ready to lay down your arms if you realize it will never work. I'd rather thwart the governments ability to throw us behind bars than to stand my ground on "principle" and watch my friends be kidnapped, arrested and brutalized for exercising their preference to smoke.


----------



## cool14001 (Oct 14, 2009)

Why not tax and regulate with the exception of the sick. It is sad the businesses have to think about how they will make money from people who need something that should be so cheap. However, because cannabis is a mind altering drug, I would understand government wanting to know how much is out there (at least in the baby years). I wouldn't mind having a $50 tag/plant to grow my own or something around those lines. It beats paying a lawyer. Taxing it per ounce seems silly. How would that be enforced unless you were marketing and selling it, in which case you would need a business license and special set of standards I'm sure.

Eventually the market prices would level out, and after the government + society realizes that all hell won't break loose, then it would become much more lax.


----------



## ancap (Oct 15, 2009)

Cool14001,

I know it seems somehow wrong to associate profit with the sick and dying, but in reality, it has been all profit motive that has driven the explosion in healthcare advances throughout the past century. I'm sure people along the way were also doing it to contribute to humanity, but profit is what made it happen. There's no coincidence that the biggest advances in human history began along with the explosion of free market liberty in the 1800's.


----------



## cool14001 (Oct 15, 2009)

I completely agree, it is just hard when you are talking with someone directly affected by a lack of insurance.

If businessmen couldn't make profits from insurance then they would be directing their ambitions elsewhere. Taking with them all the advances into their field where they can make a profit.


----------



## ford442 (Oct 15, 2009)

the government is never really supposed to hold down one product (cannabis) while allowing competing corporate bodies to fill the gap (pharmaceuticals, tobacco, alcohol, petroleum, Hannity, etc).. this is a mistake people are going to have to acknowledge in the future.. or perhaps its just new and trendy to have laws about market dominance..


----------



## OregonMeds (Oct 15, 2009)

That's a real shame that national norml and oaksterdam have that position but that is the reality of a corporation/business and make no mistake about it they are in the business of staying in business and staying profitable. 

FYI there's a new "oaksterdam" in the portland oregon area that might need talent at some point, tell that guy who was fired to google Oregon Medical Cannabis University also I saw on craigslist there is an opening for Executive Director of the Eugene Compassion Center. http://corvallis.craigslist.org/npo/1390227777.html


----------



## doowmd (Oct 21, 2009)

have any of you cig smokers out there (tobacco) evr thought of growing ur own smoke? no? well if u have thats too bad cause the gov. regulates all tob. plant sales and alotments. meaning they tell they farmer how much he's allowed to grow. not just anyone is allowed to grow it. the farmers who do grow it have to have state issued licenses. anyone who lives in a tobacco growing state will know wat i'm talking about. i'm sure this is how ibe for mary jane if she ever gets to hit the streets inside of a legal package of some sort. y does there always have to be some kind of hook? y cant we just truly be free?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? y cant i have a million dollars? wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


----------



## ilkhan (Oct 23, 2009)

Homegrown is "everywhere" however it would stop once prices drop.
I don't think you would be able to ask more then 20-40 bucks an ounce.
After a few years outdoor and indoor agrobuisness would be rolling out kick ass product.
Indoor grows would be for personal use, unusual strains and whatnot.
Hell I would be surprised if Marlburo didn't start marketing "Greens."
You'll probably be able to buy trimmed weed in tins like coffee cans,
Like you buy pipe tobaco today, for about $320 bucks. 

I just hope they do something to legalize it!
We don't need the cops hounding peaceful people anymore.
After legaization we can argue the finer points.
But if prices don't come down from street values theres something wrong.


----------



## Dan Kone (Oct 24, 2009)

OFC no one wants to be taxed, but it's a matter of being practical. Marketing legalization as "tax and regulate" is extremely effective. It's something that the people of California support. 

The difference between the bill passing and not passing may very well be the tax money it will bring in. The state needs money and everyone knows it. It gives a reason for people who don't care about marijuana one way or the other to vote in favor of legalization. 

Dennis Peron and Jack Herer are probably right about what they are saying but you don't get bonus points for that. Richard Lee's bill could bring an end to prohibition in California. Isn't that the ultimate goal?

Dennis Peron and Jack Herer are making the perfect become the enemy of the good here. Ending prohibition should be the main goal. We can worry about the rest later.


----------



## Dan Kone (Oct 24, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> That's a real shame that national norml and oaksterdam have that position but that is the reality of a corporation/business and make no mistake about it they are in the business of staying in business and staying profitable.
> 
> FYI there's a new "oaksterdam" in the portland oregon area that might need talent at some point, tell that guy who was fired to google Oregon Medical Cannabis University also I saw on craigslist there is an opening for Executive Director of the Eugene Compassion Center. http://corvallis.craigslist.org/npo/1390227777.html


If this bill passes Richard Lee will end up as the Budweiser of weed. Kind of a shame since his product at Blue Sky Cafe is inferior, but I'll take it if he can get us legalization.


----------



## georgi345 (Oct 26, 2009)

Green Cross said:


> Legalization or not, most home growers will remain outlaws


amen.

fuck regulation! fuck taxation! i kinda _like_ being an outlaw!
¡viva zapata!




















-g


----------



## Blueberryyum (Nov 7, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> it should be treated like any other crop... grow as much as you want, however you want to grow, and use all that you care... but if you sell it or run a business with it, you should be taxed like any other person trying to run a business in america is.
> 
> i say run it like they do with alcohol now, you can brew all the beer or shine you want as long as you dont sell it.. and if you do sell it it gets taxed and regulated just like any other american agriculture product... keep it prohibited from the youth ( yeah i know, im dick,freakin hypocrite, i was a teen, smoked like a chimney the whole time) cause you dont want a 10yr old buying it...
> 
> ...


 supper aggree


----------



## to serve man (Nov 7, 2009)

georgi345 said:


> amen.
> 
> fuck regulation! fuck taxation! i kinda _like_ being an outlaw!
> ¡viva zapata!
> ...


Agreed, Comrade! Keep up the resistance!
Resistance is fertile!
Viva La Zapatistas!


----------



## dontexist21 (Nov 8, 2009)

georgi345 said:


> amen.
> 
> fuck regulation! fuck taxation! i kinda _like_ being an outlaw!
> ¡viva zapata!
> ...


I would love to have that same mind set, to bad I have responsibilities, which require me to hold a good paying job. To bad companies like to do drug test which would get me fired from said job. There is no way that cops can harass you over growing, if it was legal and they smell it in your house, you can tell them you are smoking, and to leave you alone. If it was legal today, this would be the last generation of people that would grow their own on such a level. Most people would rather spend the cash and buy it.


----------



## proman (Nov 28, 2009)

Taxation means representation, at least theoretically. I do agree that control of cannabis must not be handed to corporations because they will turn around and control it. So here must all cannabis growers and smokers unite upon a single front. This front is a reconciliation of the two polar natures of mankind 1) communal 2)capitalist. What will allow us to have our cake and eat it too? I say cannabis taxation should go ONLY to cities so that they invest into education and infrastructure ONLY. Let everyone grow a set amount of plants and pay the equivalent of what we pay for the MM card. I rather give my city $150 per year so they can hire more cops and teachers than $150 to some greedy doctor making money off something that should be free (cannabis). If cannabis is sold at any retail establishment, it must then also be subject to the same taxes as any other good/service.


----------



## iplantvirgin (Dec 22, 2009)

there will always be cake builders and cake buyers>


----------



## Dan Kone (Dec 22, 2009)

proman said:


> Taxation means representation, at least theoretically.


It reality bribery = representation. 



proman said:


> I do agree that control of cannabis must not be handed to corporations because they will turn around and control it.


Heavy corporate involvement in the cannabis industry is an inevitable consequence of legalization no matter how any legalization bill is worded. 

They have their lobbyists and campaign contributions. That means they will get theirs no matter what. The upside is the corporations aren't here yet and right now we have the chance to be one of those corporations. If you're not growing your business and preparing for legalization right fucking now then you've already missed the boat. 

Personally my car is dying and I need a new one + I have many other things I need that I'm forgoing so I can reinvest all possible $$ into my business so I'm ready for this shit.



proman said:


> I rather give my city $150 per year so they can hire more cops and teachers than $150 to some greedy doctor making money off something that should be free (cannabis). If cannabis is sold at any retail establishment, it must then also be subject to the same taxes as any other good/service.


I understand your point, and I agree with the basic concept. It's beside the point, but I'd rather have those doctors take my money than have it go to a bunch of cops. Yes, those doctors are getting paid, but they are taking a big risk too. 

Regardless of their motivations they are doing the right thing and I respect them for that. I can't recall having an encounter with a cop that was even remotely interested in doing the right thing.


----------



## Dan Kone (Dec 22, 2009)

iplantvirgin said:


> there will always be cake builders and cake buyers>


Here's to cake! Cheers!


----------



## OregonMeds (Dec 22, 2009)

Dan Kone said:


> It reality bribery = representation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


.........................................


----------



## MacGuyver4.2.0 (Dec 22, 2009)

Dan Kone said:


> Here's to cake! Cheers!


 
The CAKE IS A LIE!


----------



## THC1 (Dec 26, 2009)

When Tax & Regulate 2010 passes everyone over 21 will be able to grow a 25 square foot grow for personal use. Think of it like tomatoes. You can buy tomatoes at the store or grow your own at home. Tax & Regulate is an excellent first step that must be taken if we want full legalization on the federal level.


----------



## clydec (Dec 26, 2009)

The problem is that there is a marijuana movement and there is a cannabis/hemp movement.

Is there a tax on barley, malt or corn? No, but all can be used to make alcohol. But it has to be processed.

Re-legalization of cannabis, if done without punitive taxation, will allow for tens of thousands of new uses and markets that will provide jobs and tax revenue. Unlike tobacco, it is not a single use plant.

Marijuana legalization is concerned only with a single use of cannabis. It's that use that was the excuse to make it illegal in the first place.

Support full legalization without new taxes and you'll get to grow all you want. And the corps will make a killing off your stalks.


----------



## ford442 (Dec 26, 2009)

tobacco also screws the earth behind it when it grows - farmers used to grow cannabis afterward to replenish those fields...


----------



## LowRider82 (Dec 26, 2009)

to serve man said:


> Just so everyone knows, I wasn't the author of this piece. Just saw it on another forum and decided that it was good enough to put on here. Take from it what you will and make up your own minds. I personally agree with zig zag zane in that should you tax me for growing my tomatoes? my peppers? corn? Why only cannabis? Because they know, like the article states, that they are going to loose a shit load of money if they don't, because cannabis grows freely.


Well the only problem i see wrong with the dispensary's is that they charge street prices for there weed. its stupid. yeah some run deals and what not but still the majority charge street prices. 

As for me i say tax it only if it is sold in stores. if its grown by myself then i should have to pay no tax. Can't see them charging me a tax on home grown weed anyway. i think people misinterpret that. no bill i know that wants to tax and regulate marijuana taxes marijuana that is home grown. Only store bought is taxed.


----------



## ford442 (Dec 27, 2009)

that sounds about right - at first we might see a steep license fee to be a commercial grower, but that might be a compromise we have to tolerate until a more fair situation can be worked out.. i mean - we really don't have a model for that scale of commercialization of weed - it will take some time before it is 100% fair and balanced..


----------



## hempcurescancer (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm sure many people would agree with me when I said there's a fair way to have both (taxation and free growth) because not everybody's gonna wanna grow just because they legally can (just like the majority of people aren't gonna wanna do heroin just because they smoked pot) but there still will be people who wanna grow (like ourselves)


----------



## clydec (Dec 29, 2009)

The problem with taxing it at an astronomical rate is that it leaves incentive for a black market to continue. 

Getting the criminal incentive out of marijuana production should be a goal of legalization. Legalization with an intact black market will cause more problems than we currently have with the issue.


----------



## MacGuyver4.2.0 (Dec 29, 2009)

clydec said:


> The problem with taxing it at an astronomical rate is that it leaves incentive for a black market to continue.
> 
> Getting the criminal incentive out of marijuana production should be a goal of legalization. Legalization with an intact black market will cause more problems than we currently have with the issue.


 
...and you just wiped out Mexico's gross national product. The cartels will have nowhere to peddle thier schwag in the US.


----------



## ford442 (Dec 29, 2009)

maybe the problem now is that dispensaries can't undercut the black market without lowering the price they pay to growers - and most growers i know won't have that - they would just go back to selling it on the black market.. maybe the best way to lower the actual value of pot is to have some large scale farm production of like $5/pack joints that taste acceptable and get you stoned - then there will be no demand for shwag and local growers could still get something substantial for their hand manicured stuff - $800/lb is still $800 that a poor person didn't have to begin with - it is basically the only way a person with no money, but a plot of land can subsist.. then anyone who needed a little cash and has a backyard can pay their taxes without starving.. they buy food and products and the whole economy wins - tha end.


----------



## jesus of Cannabis (Dec 29, 2009)

fuck dispensaries and their over inflated prices, I grow my own and thanks to the State of ** I am doing it legally.


----------



## Dan Kone (Dec 30, 2009)

ford442 said:


> maybe the problem now is that dispensaries can't undercut the black market without lowering the price they pay to growers


That's just not true. Dispensaries are more than doubling their money on every pound they buy. In most cases they triple their money. No other type of retail business that makes that kind of profit.

If they wanted to they could sell $40 dollar 1/8th max and still make a very healthy profit. They are making serious bank. 

They charge that much because they are the bottle neck in the industry at the moment and enough people will pay those prices to keep their businesses extremely profitable. 

More dispensaries are opening every day and as they do prices will go down. In the long run it'll all even out, it'll just take a while.


----------



## clydec (Dec 31, 2009)

Dan Kone said:


> That's just not true. Dispensaries are more than doubling their money on every pound they buy. In most cases they triple their money. No other type of retail business that makes that kind of profit.
> 
> If they wanted to they could sell $40 dollar 1/8th max and still make a very healthy profit. They are making serious bank.
> 
> ...


Unless they make enough to buy the influence required to keep it that way. 

It works for Oil, Banks, Pharma etc. When have artificial markets ever been beneficial for the consumer?

Speaking of which, how's that Cap and Trade looking?


----------



## Hydrotech364 (Dec 31, 2009)

Dan Kone said:


> That's just not true. Dispensaries are more than doubling their money on every pound they buy. In most cases they triple their money. No other type of retail business that makes that kind of profit.
> 
> If they wanted to they could sell $40 dollar 1/8th max and still make a very healthy profit. They are making serious bank.
> 
> ...


Wish Texas would do something about it.


----------



## ford442 (Jan 2, 2010)

Texas will get in gear when they see that relaxing pot prohibition means a better time at the Mexico border for everyone...


----------



## God's Balls (Jan 14, 2010)

Yeah, this is the part that pisses me off. States have pissed all our tax money down the gutter, now they're fine-tuning their moral issues so they can sponge off the stoners.

Some years back, my home state in the Midwest decided it needed a lottery for revenue. Many folks found themselves opposed to the notion of legal gambling. So the lobby sold the idea by leashing it to increased school funding: "It's for the kids."

A decade later, those school funds are long gone. Watch pot decriminalization play out the same way.


----------

