# TORR POWER SAVING VEG METHOD



## RangiSTaxi (Nov 2, 2019)

*VEG 12 hours White light - 12 hours of Pure Red 30 watts- 24 hours total VEG*



*12 hours white light HLG 550 running at 380 watts for 12 hours

Reds 12 in total - 10 x Deep Red 660 nm and 2 x far Reds 730 nm running at 30 watts

Total VEG Hours 24 *


Ok, Im stunned by the rapid growth, 12 hours white light HLG 550 running at 380 watts for 12 hours, 30 watt red for 12 Hours in Veg Total 24 hours light (from seed)

Not as much stretch as I expected, but more than normal for me, but incredibly explosive growth from the seedlings.

New basic garden centre potting mix , no added nutrients.

Power Savings Have been Huge. Around 14 Days after Germination (temps around 32 degrees celsius, far too hot, but plants dont seem to mind, will sort) High humidity as that Tray has a few cm of water sitting in it, air pot is raised out of the water.







Those Leaves are Huge 3x3 Tent. Dialed the HLG 550s down due to high heat, its Summer here.

76 Litre Air Pot

Im calling this New veg method (12 hours low wattage RED , 12 hours White Light) the:

*Torr Veg Method

A Great Power Saving Method


















Torr Veg Method

something you may like to trial yourself and play around with light hours that suit your grow **style*

*A Great Power Saving Method

Idea started at https://www.rollitup.org/t/veg-12-hours-white-light-12-hours-of-pure-red-24-hours-total-veg.998235/*

Last edited: 12 minutes ago


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## coreywebster (Nov 2, 2019)

How long have you been doing it?


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## RangiSTaxi (Nov 2, 2019)

coreywebster said:


> How long have you been doing it?


2 weeks, not proven at all, just throwing the idea out their for peeps to test and trial for themselves.

Im impressed with the growth ive had from germination. been growing over 15 years and this growth has surprised me, and seems better than 24 hours at full blast with the 550 hlg at 24 hours. I am running the reds at the same time as the whites, i.e reds 24 hours white 12 hours.

I have Solar panels so the 12 hours of white light is free for me.

It could almost cut Veg power costs in half.

One thing i did note early on is red light can cause leaf bleaching even at 30 watts that white light does not, so be wary of keeping the light at a good height away and lower it to find the sweet spot it was around 55cm -60 cm away for me. the young seedlings are the most sensitive


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## coreywebster (Nov 2, 2019)

RangiSTaxi said:


> 2 weeks, not proven at all, just throwing the idea out their for peeps to test and trial for themselves.
> 
> Im impressed with the growth ive had from germination.


I wondered because I had a time last winter where I added an incandescent bulb for some extra heat and left main lights on 24h while we had a real cold snap. When I switched back to 18/6 I forgot I hadn't plugged the bulb into the timer with the QBs so it stayed on 24/7, 3 days later plants trebled in size and I had to cut them backdown to lowest node. 
Happened really quick.
Doesn't seem like your having that issue at all though , obviously a big difference between an incandescent and the correct ratio of 660 and 730.

Interesting idea, will follow along.


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## RangiSTaxi (Nov 2, 2019)

If anyone's interested Reds 12 in total came from cutter - 10 x Deep Red 660 nm and 2 x far Reds 730 nm

https://www.cutter.com.au/product/ssk-1560-730_660/

The driver from https://www.digikey.co.nz/product-detail/en/mean-well-usa-inc/APC-25-700/1866-1125-ND/7702576


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## RangiSTaxi (Nov 29, 2019)

Update: on testing photoperiod flowering varieties will flower with 24 hours of light. 
(12 hours white light HLG 550 running at 380 watts for 12 hours, 30 watt red for 12 Hours in Veg Total 24 hours light (from seed)

The result is like a auto, even for a photo-period seed. great power saving and above average yields.

Its awesome pretty awesome.


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## RangiSTaxi (Nov 29, 2019)

RangiSTaxi said:


> Update: on testing photoperiod flowering varieties will flower with 24 hours of light.
> (12 hours white light HLG 550 running at 380 watts for 12 hours, 30 watt red for 12 Hours in Veg Total 24 hours light (from seed)
> 
> The result is like a auto, even for a photo-period seed. great power saving and above average yields.
> ...


This means you can supplement the dark period with red light and not delay flowering.

I have just harvested 2 plants of 4 , start date 2nd of november, the 2 plants harvested were seedsman big nugs fast.

time to harvest 28 days- from 2nd of November (Seedling see first photo) to 30 November harvest


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## RangiSTaxi (Nov 29, 2019)

The later flowering varieties are still going, defoliated and bend down today to fill in the space where the other 2 were harvested from.tent 1

other tent defoliated today and bent down, for better light penetration, 2 have been harvested of 8 in total 6 plants left. Tent 2 are 7 days behind Tent one in planting.


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## zypheruk (Nov 30, 2019)

I run 250 watts of qb's in veg for 12 hours and the other 12 hours im using a single qb at about 60 watts very similar results for veg. Why it saves me money. lol im a tight cunt. I will follow along and see how this turns out as it is interesting.


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## Budzbuddha (Nov 30, 2019)

Red does induce more stretch , so there’s that.


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## RangiSTaxi (Nov 30, 2019)

RangiSTaxi said:


> *VEG 12 hours White light - 12 hours of Pure Red 30 watts- 24 hours total VEG*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The 2 biggest Plants in the first photo in this thread have now been harvested after just 28 days, estimate 2 ounce per plant dry.

1 Plant was very ready second plant I Could have harvested a week later , but tent was getting crowded, so harvested the 2 big nug fast plants to give more room to the last 2 plants in tent one. Tent 2 is garden of greens purple kush if my memory serves me correctly, planted on the 9th of November.

These Plants are growing and flowering very quickly like Autos but are photo period seeds, basically they are flowering like plants with zero veg from seedling germinating and thus far appear to be finishing faster than the fastest autos.

If you want to prevent them going to flower too fast add a hour of white light in the middle of the red flowering night period.


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## 10WeekFlushBro (Dec 2, 2019)

Very interesting. I'd be interested to see the difference between a normal 12/12 from seed and this lighting regimen.
28 days?! edit: ok I get it, that's critical mass X big bud lol.


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 3, 2019)

10WeekFlushBro said:


> Very interesting. I'd be interested to see the difference between a normal 12/12 from seed and this lighting regimen.
> 28 days?! edit: ok I get it, that's critical mass X big bud lol.


This is not proven ,
Im throwing around ideas,

Idea 1, 12 hours white 12 hours red till flower from start to harvest, if said variety flowers under that . needs more testing (seedsman big nugs fast does, proven, violet Kush also flowers but to be continued...) the 2 x seedsman big nugs fast ended up 6 ounces dry.
Idea 2, veg only 12 hours white then 5.5 red hours red 1 hour white 5.5 red. = 24 hours veg, gas lantern method with red instead of dark
Idea 3 flowering 12 hours white 4 hours red = 16 hours 8 hours dark = 24 hours
Idea 4 , flower normally 12 hours white , 12 hours Dark , after 3rd week from flip to 12/12 once flowering is initiated and the plants committed to flowering and triggered run 24 hours of light 12 hours white 12 hours red.
\
next test Blue Dream. after violet Kush finishes,then Kosher Kush and Alaskan Purple im not set up to or in a position to do in depth comparisons, but if others are, that would be great. im limited by very small scale, but will update .


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 4, 2019)

4 days later from previous pics. update :
im currently in a position to test idea 3 and idea 4 with the violet Kush, taking votes which one should i test.

Currently running 12 hours white /12 hours red from germination to now.

Photos just 4 days after bend down and heavy defoliate. see above pics (personally id like to move to idea 3 and give them a little dark period, but for the science and the community ill keep with the program if that's what peeps vote for.



25 days old from seedlings started 9th November tent 2, photo period seeds, tent 1 2nd November tent 2 planted 7 days later.

Tent 2 pics above, Tent 1 Pics below.

tent 1 , see first thread photo, 2 already harvested, harvested after 28 days from top photo 2nd november , 2 plants left. bent down 12h white / 12h red

bent down to fill in space where other 2 plants were harvested from.


pic above 32 days from seedlings see first pic in thread. 2 of 4 harvested after 28 days. ( note these are not particularly good strains at all, low quality free seeds) so the results should be far better if your using good genetics.

note: New basic garden centre potting mix , no added nutrients. ive choosen to use no added nutrients for this test. run of the mill garden centre potting mix, the cheapest and standard tap water.

4 plants in one pot, 2 harvested in 28 days , 2 plants left in tent 1. see first photo in thread.


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 4, 2019)

TORR methods, represents any flowering or Veg methods that dont fit under the "standard" lighting regimes.


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## zypheruk (Dec 4, 2019)

be interesting to see the finished buds and structures of the plants. If you can post some images with out the red light it would be easier for people to view them.


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 4, 2019)

zypheruk said:


> be interesting to see the finished buds and structures of the plants. If you can post some images with out the red light it would be easier for people to view them.


I will do that, however i posted white light photos just 4 days ago, not much changes in 4 days, they are just lifting to the light and recovering from the heavy defoliation and bend down. im posting in red and white so people see the white is day but the dark period is actually red , there is no dark period.

Im not keen on this strain at all to be honest, cant wait till it finishes, maybe in 3 weeks, I have blue dream next. a common variety that people can relate to.

here is some under buds that i still have, of the 2 plants i harvested in tent 1 the better stuff is already gone to a friend. nothing to write home about, but gives you a idea


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## zypheruk (Dec 4, 2019)

RangiSTaxi said:


> I will do that, however i posted white light photos just 4 days ago, not much changes in 4 days, they are just lifting to the light and recovering from the heavy defoliation and bend down. im posting in red and white so people see the white is day but the dark period is actually red , there is no dark period.
> 
> Im not keen on this strain at all to be honest, cant wait till it finishes, maybe in 3 weeks, I have blue dream next. a common variety that people can relate to.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting that not so bad at all, certainly looks like your experimenting is paying off. Really nice to see others think outside the box and try new things.


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## Kassiopeija (Dec 4, 2019)

RangiSTaxi said:


> The 2 biggest Plants in the first photo in this thread have now been harvested after just 28 days, estimate 2 ounce per plant dry.
> 
> 1 Plant was very ready second plant I Could have harvested a week later , but tent was getting crowded, so harvested the 2 big nug fast plants to give more room to the last 2 plants in tent one. Tent 2 is garden of greens purple kush if my memory serves me correctly, planted on the 9th of November.
> 
> ...


at what day did they pre-sex?


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 5, 2019)

Kassiopeija said:


> at what day did they pre-sex?


Hi The Big nugs fast were showing sex on the 6th of november (already harvested) and the Purple Kush on the 10th of November, basically the same as a zero veg from seedlings, to get bigger plants and stop them from flowering so early you would have to add a hour of white night in the middle of the red period. These plants are smaller than I would like.

I have suffered some leaf bleaching again from the 2 far reds, the 730 nms , so if using far reds the light cant be kept too close, I had them just 40cm away, too close, my bad, the 10 x 660 nm dont seem to be a problem with leaf bleaching..

I also have a major heat issue with temps getting up to 36 degrees C today as i turned the hgl 550s up to full power, i will turn them down tomorrow. There is no way for me to reduce temps to a decent level given my position, ill have to run with it.

Those 2 far red LEDS are like laser beams, note the leaf burn. only tent 2 has the leaf bleaching issue, lights raised slightly.
\
We are at day 34 from the thread start 2nd of November With Tent 1, and just 27 days in Tent 2 . They are finishing very fast with the Seedsman big nugs fast harvest and dried, only Puple Kush left to finish. Also the leaf has lost a bit of green colour, i put this down to high heat and lights too close, they should improve when i dial the HLG 550s back down to 380 watts tomorrow.

yeild will not be great but probably ok for a zero veg from seedlings.

Garden of Greens Blue Dream sowed 6 days ago, to ready them for replacement once these finish, im going to reuse the same potting mix, cut out the roots and reuse same potting mix and pots.

The idea of using no added nutrients and second hand potting mix is that , nutrient additives may be unnecessary, and their cost may be unwarranted, in the past ive reused potting mix up to 5 times, indoors and done very well, often the older the potting mix the better, however in the past ive used extra nutrients, but for the next run will use none just plain tap water. General garden centre potting mix has 6-9 months of nutrients often those slow release nutrients don't come into there own till the second crop.


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## LinguaPeel (Dec 7, 2019)

Slow release nutes are like little nute gel caps, so technically added nutes. 

Let's see those roots.


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 7, 2019)

LinguaPeel said:


> Slow release nutes are like little nute gel caps, so technically added nutes.
> 
> Let's see those roots.


very true. Im not digging out the plants to show you the roots, but its my understanding they do have roots, 
no added nutrients, as i didnt add any, they came with the garden center potting mix.
yes no doubt there are nutrients in the potting mix in slow release prills which are generally slow release nutrients rapped in a bean protein which realease nutrients over time via osmosis , like osmocote.


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 11, 2019)

Update: tent one.

if there is not much interest in this thread ill kill it and stop with updates.

Blue dream next time if anyone is interested


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## T macc (Dec 11, 2019)

As long as you're doing experiments, there will be ppl. I'm interested and might try this later in 2020


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 11, 2019)

blue dream seedlings going well topped them.


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 11, 2019)

Tent 2 update: suffered from light bleaching/leaf burning, from the 2 x far red leds, as i had the light too close, but they are still powering on, and doing ok. 7 days behind tent 1


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 11, 2019)

Tent one looked like this on the 30th of November, after 2 in the same pot of 4 were harvested, (after just 28 days, wow thats record breaking fast) I bent down the 2 remaining longer flowering plants to fill in the space where the 2 early flowering plants were harvested from, to maximize light usage.


12 days later they look like this:


note the original bent down stem from the first photo to the latest photo is just 12 days. (all documented here so you can check yourself. just 12 days.)


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 12, 2019)

my phone camera struggles to take red night photos but here we go , taken today lights off , i.e red

12 white 12 red , never a dark period.

dark period = red light



TORR method in action.

Red is their dark period. 12 hours red sleep time.

Its a Red night district ..and they are getting it on!


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 15, 2019)

Wow 3 days later and the buds have doubled in size, and the smell is so so intense and swamping my huge carbon filter, will add photos once the white lights kick back in... my concern is these don't look like they will finish anytime soon. I really want them to finish as the blue dream is hanging out to take their place.
then Kosher Kush , Im looking forward to that one.
Time for another heavy leaf defoliation i think, I might have time wednesday your time, will post after.


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## Nizza (Dec 15, 2019)

man your making me want to pick up some of these.
Great work!
Are you going to be making full number report of days and yield from start?


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 16, 2019)

Nizza said:


> man your making me want to pick up some of these.
> Great work!
> Are you going to be making full number report of days and yield from start?


Hi mate , Ive done no note taking, everyones variables will be different, here are the last photos, will focus on blue dream now, had to turn off the light to take the photos as the lights were too bright for my camera and i just got a lot of streaking in the photos, sorry for the crap photos im using a old phone until my new one arrives in the post. see post number 1 at 2nd of november 44 days from first post, last 2 of 4 left
Not particularly amazing, but we did learn that some varieties initiate flowering and continue to flower if you replace the 12 hours of dark with red light instead, i.e 24hours of light. I still not sure if this is useful in practise or not, but none the less it is interesting.


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 17, 2019)

For The Next grow, im going back to multiple plants in shallow trays 20cm deep,( just basic plastic storage tubs) from start to finish,(this is my usual basic Staple, prior to the airpot trial) the airpots kept my plant roots too dry and I feel this effected yields and performance, also with trays, no holes , basic shop storage tubs, i dont have gnat problems and can fill in my tent space better,as they are square / rectangle, i felt like i wasted a lot of tent/light space this last grow, and with having pots with a water collection tray underneath , sitting water attracted gnats which ive never had before, whist growing with trays with no drainage holes never had a problem. shallow tubs without holes do great indoors , they hold a few mm of water in the bottom after watering which is absorbed within the hour and they dry out fast giving a nice quick ph swing from wet to dry to make all nutrients available , ive done a lot of grows using this method and generally i get great results. Also with trays my plants and growing media are closer to the ground were its cooler, and the same amount of potting mix is used as the airpots, ill be recycling the potting mix to reuse from the last run above for the blue dream.


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 20, 2019)

Blue Dream transplant, have a new phone, recycled potting mix from the air pots to trays.


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## RangiSTaxi (Dec 20, 2019)

Tent 1&2 Dry , tent 1, 44 days, tent 2 , 37 days, tent one , 2 of 4 plants just 28 days, from seedling to harvest. photoperiod seeds, admittedly harvested a bit too early but still decent smoke


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## Nizza (Jan 3, 2020)

any updates? This is very interesting!


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## RangiSTaxi (Jan 13, 2020)

Nizza said:


> any updates? This is very interesting!


Hi Nizza, sorry for the delay.

Given personal and legal circumstances, i had to start again, and sow new seeds, here is Blue Dream, I had some issues growing it to be honest, due to my personal enviroment and personal difficulties but here is a update.

only one plant is half decent, and im considering destroying them and starting again.

if I continue with them im not expecting a lot, under 12 red 12 white they are showing signs of flower now, they are 3.5 weeks after germination.

I have taken 2 clones off the biggest plant at the front left corner, mixed bag genetic wise. There are 4 plants and only one is growing well.

Im wondering if Blue dream is a bit harder to grow or if Ive fucked up, probably a bit of both.

I added a lot of osmocote i.e a slow release fertiliser to the second hand potting mix, and suffered nutrient salt burn on transplant.

also I don't recommend running those red lights at the same height as your whites,i like to keep my hgl 550s really close, but if you put the red at the same height on the light they leaf burn. so stick your red lights top of tent or side of tent and higher than your white, who would have thought 30 watts of red could burn leaf bleach? well that just my experience yours could be different. my tents are running at over 30 degrees Celsius even with aircon so that may be a factor.




I guess it shows how much genetics play a part with seeds, all 4 plants same condition, but 1 of 4 is going so much better than the rest.


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## Kassiopeija (Jan 13, 2020)

Hi, wouldn't it be enough to have the Far Reds on for just half an hour once the main light goes off... and what does it do to your plants in veg...?


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## RangiSTaxi (Jan 13, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> Hi, wouldn't it be enough to have the Far Reds on for just half an hour once the main light goes off... and what does it do to your plants in veg...?


yes that could work to shorten flowering time,infact that is the standard way to use far reds, this thread was just a idea, and definitely outside the box.


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## RangiSTaxi (Jan 13, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> Hi, wouldn't it be enough to have the Far Reds on for just half an hour once the main light goes off... and what does it do to your plants in veg...?


if you use far reds like this you can add a extra hour of light, i.e 13/11 i.e 13 hours of light 11 hours dark and get better yield. faster

If you read through the entire thread you will see that 12 white 12 red will make photoperiod seeds flower just like Autos from seed.

whether this is of any benefit has yet to be determined.

At this stage , im not recommending to use 12 white 12 red unless you want to turn over crops very quickly.

Im thinking that 16 white 8 red if it triggers flowering , that 24 hours of light could be a game changer. for photo period seeds


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## RangiSTaxi (Jan 13, 2020)

also im calling this nutrient a hero, no matter how bad you stuff up with your nutrients this one seems to bring things back within a week

as a grower of 20 years, i rarely recommend a nutrient product, but if your having trouble try it, works for me, shake the bottle and give it a go.
and let me know. The iron is the key. Iron and nitrogen are a match made in heaven.


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## Kassiopeija (Jan 14, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> If you read through the entire thread you will see that 12 white 12 red will make photoperiod seeds flower just like Autos from seed


Well Im not sure if I understand this correctly... and I did read the thread, just theres some disbelief.
Have you ever tried 12/12 from seed using no light during the night.There, plants will also initiate flower sooner than normal. It has to do with Pfr/Pr conversion buildup...
I think in veg the aim is not to let flowering hormones build up. 1 h of light during the off-phase can do that trick. Gas Lantern Routine...


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## Kassiopeija (Jan 14, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> also im calling this nutrient a hero, no matter how bad you stuff up with your nutrients this one seems to bring things back within a week
> View attachment 4456046
> as a grower of 20 years, i rarely recommend a nutrient product, but if your having trouble try it, works for me, shake the bottle and give it a go.
> and let me know. The iron is the key. Iron and nitrogen are a match made in heaven.


Do you know at which week in flower you want to increase Fe? And for what? 
Nevertheless, that fert looks good. Just too much Ca (ie Ca:Mg 2:1 in flower optimally IMO...) 
Greets


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## RangiSTaxi (Jan 14, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> Do you know at which week in flower you want to increase Fe? And for what?
> Nevertheless, that fert looks good. Just too much Ca (ie Ca:Mg 2:1 in flower optimally IMO...)
> Greets


Sounds Like you know your stuff, feel free to take over the thread with test and trials as im signing out on this one.


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## Kassiopeija (Jan 14, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> Sounds Like you know your stuff, feel free to take over the thread with test and trials as im signing out on this one.


Im sorry didnt want to give you that impression. some stuff I know (ie CalMag) but not so much at all on micronutes like iron. thats what spurt my interest when I saw that bottle.


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## greg nr (Feb 29, 2020)

fwiw, the folks who do sog grows go almost directly to 12/12 from seed. Maybe after a week or so from breaking the surface. 

Curious how that compares to this method for time and growth size. Interesting.

Thanks


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## RangiSTaxi (Mar 3, 2020)

greg nr said:


> fwiw, the folks who do sog grows go almost directly to 12/12 from seed. Maybe after a week or so from breaking the surface.
> 
> Curious how that compares to this method for time and growth size. Interesting.
> 
> Thanks


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 3, 2020)

Yes man, pretty impressive info you give out there, thanks alot  


RangiSTaxi said:


> have suffered some leaf bleaching again from the 2 far reds, the 730 nms


could it be that the 730nm radiation is mostly converted to heat upon absorption? its well beyond the PAR action spectrum 400nm-700nm. I order myself a batch - gonna play around with it - TORRing 

Regarding the bottled fertilizer - when do see an indication to use it? during stretch when bottom leaves start yellowing for example?

BTW your plants look super healthy


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 3, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> Its a Red night district ..and they are getting it on!


LMAO XD


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 4, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> I would go for 100% 660nm if possible and avoid the 730nm, mines 2x 730nm and 10x 660nm strip.
> 
> I would not use anymore than 60 watts max red per 4x4, it might prevent flower initiation . 30 watt would be fine.


Just to be absolutely clear, are you saying you are/did use light in the range of 660nm (Hyper Red) during the 12 hour lasting nightphase in flowering - and your plants didn't revegg? If so that would be absolutely mindblowing, I thought you did use 730nm exclusively... but 660nm is PAR... this is somewhat against the book, but let me tell you this: (and I hope I don't jump too early to conclusions now...)

I've build myself a new light for my vegtent 80x80cm out of old HIDS (which were laying around unused) just for jolly, it's a HPS + MH combined:

here's an excerpt from a conversation with @Dr. Who which describes how that's been used:

"4 weeks ago I made an unexpected encounter - the vegtent with only a bunch of 4 week plants all regs went into flower. Under 18/6 lights. However, I have made a lighting experience and put both an MH & HPS dual under the hood.

Mourning: 6h MH
Midday: 6h MH + HPS
Evening: 6h HPS
30-50k lux at the canopy.

Could this be due to hormonell response initiated in stimulus of 12h of orange-shifted light from the HPS? or the lack of blue spectrum? but I knew folks that vegged entirely with HPS, and plants didnt go into flower right when they were mature...

Maybe its more complicated? Maybe from the shift... telling the plants oh only very short day with direct sunlight... I find it somehow hard to believe that the 660nm receptor is telling a plant "direct sunlight" when that wavelength actually is measured also quite diffuse in spread. Blue or UV would make much more sense, and there are so many of them.

However, the simulation also resulted in lesser luminosity in comparison to both HIDs full 18h on. Therefore, currently changed to
18h HPS + 14h MH
6h night

their back in veg now, but I wonder if I just could initiate flowering by reverting back to the old setting. less luminosity but 18h of light instead of 12... "

as you can see, my plants got 18h of uninterrupted light but paradoxically, the whole tent flowered (photo's) even at week 4 from seed.

I cannot explain this behaviour. But there was only 12h of white/blue light, and the rest was 6h HPS light + 6h darkness. A HPS will emit mostly yellow/red light:

so maybe the red light isn't "interpretated" as day by plants/Cannabis...??!?? Because that would also explain why your TORR method does what it does - your plants do flower fine.
So if this is true, it could perhaps mean that one can flower Cannabis under 16 or 18 or 20 or maybe even 24h of consecutive light.
I think you already arrived at this conclusion, isn't it:


RangiSTaxi said:


> whether this is of any benefit has yet to be determined.
> 
> At this stage , im not recommending to use 12 white 12 red unless you want to turn over crops very quickly.
> 
> Im thinking that 16 white 8 red if it triggers flowering , that 24 hours of light could be a game changer. for photo period seeds





RangiSTaxi said:


> Wow 3 days later and the buds have doubled in size


I've previously thought that you'd use 730nm and that the increased temperature during the nightphase would be responsible for the vigorous growth of your plants (just like @bk78 keeps his temps constant high throughout the whole cycle...). But that alone doesn't explain why there's no revegg in your case, or why my plants did initiate flowering.

Now if we just look at various plant photo receptors:




then you'll surely noticed most of them are well beyond both 730nm and 660nm. 550nm seems to be the start for secondairy plant metabolites.

Only Chlorophyl A + B, Pr + Pfr are working over 550nm. The official plant physiology teaches that plants using Pr to determine the day, and Pfr to determine night. But then your plants should revegg. Maybe the light emitted by 660nm/730nm monos isn't strong enough to do this, but on the other hand - you've even burnt your plants with it, as illustrated on this thread.

But if plants would use actually blue/white light to determine the day (and not Pr) then both our observed plant behaviour would make sense.
I feel we're on to something... which would require some testing... I wonder how much more 660nm lumen could be thrown at plants - in order to see if they revegg? Your monos don't gibe much out - but actually my HPS did - I measured 30k lumens (it's not max but these were small young plants in veg...). Plus a HPS will even throw alot of yellow light out, even very close to the best quantum efficiency that there is... so how in the world did these plants not consider this *day*?

Anyone else to chime in here? @Grow Lights Australia @Dr. Who @hybridway2 @Renfro @chex1111 @Sedan


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## Dr. Who (Mar 4, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> Just to be absolutely clear, are you saying you are/did use light in the range of 660nm (Hyper Red) during the 12 hour lasting nightphase in flowering - and your plants didn't revegg? If so that would be absolutely mindblowing, I thought you did use 730nm exclusively... but 660nm is PAR... this is somewhat against the book, but let me tell you this: (and I hope I don't jump too early to conclusions now...)
> 
> I've build myself a new light for my vegtent 80x80cm out of old HIDS (which were laying around unused) just for jolly, it's a HPS + MH combined:
> View attachment 4495318
> ...



NO! You can not expose plants to the 600nm bands for over 14 hrs and have blooming continue.

Not in any "proper" way.

This idea of increasing lighting times in bloom? Does not increase the yield in any cost effective way!
What you think it can do , does not happen.

This is a popular thing for me to say - "If it's not being done in commercial growing ops, even food growing hydro ops (think of the vast tomato hydro operations in Holland supplying the EU). It's not worth doing.

Playing with things in a lab is one thing. Applying it _successfully_ in real world applications? Is a whole nother ball of wax.


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 4, 2020)

Dr. Who said:


> NO! You can not expose plants to the 600nm bands for over 14 hrs and have blooming continue.


but this is what this guy has been illustrating in this very thread. Why didn't the plants reveg? And his plants do not look wasted or irregular or whatever... they look healthy a lot. 
What I'm searching for a theory explaining this observed behaviour. How would you explain what you can see here in this thread?



Dr. Who said:


> This idea of increasing lighting times in bloom? Does not increase the yield in any cost effective way!
> What you think it can do , does not happen.


Because of the DLI, I get that. I'm thinking something else:
IF extra hours could be used for photosynthesis then the DLI (the amount of PAR photons needed per day) can be distributed over more time - which would either
- reduce the ppfd requirements (if area/canopy to light out stays the same) OR
- one could increase the area using the same luminosity.

Ultimately, both ways would mean lesser hardware cost - which, in the case of LED boards - could be dramatic!

I'm just not sure how much lux the plants can tolerate during the night phase...? @RangiSTaxi how great measures the area which you shine out with the HRs/FRs? How close do you keep them from the top canopy? You perhaps happen to have a luxmeter at your place, or better: something to measure ppfd?



Dr. Who said:


> This is a popular thing for me to say - "If it's not being done in commercial growing ops, even food growing hydro ops (think of the vast tomato hydro operations in Holland supplying the EU). It's not worth doing.


I understand but nevertheless plant physiology isn't 100% complete. Maybe we're currently looking at a spot where no study has been doing it before? LED monos aren't that long around... I beg you, to dogmatically turn something down is not a scientific approach at all.

And even the smartest people do sometimes err: 
What did Einstein say about Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle? "God doesn't throw dices". Later this "dice" (co-)founded one of the 2 great modern physical theories of the 20th century: Quantum Mechanics.



Dr. Who said:


> Playing with things in a lab is one thing. Applying it _successfully_ in real world applications? Is a whole nother ball of wax.


that's true - but my main goal here is to understand what's going on... to formulate a theory, validate it, or try to falsify it... and with an increased set of empirical data, one should be able to more clear if a practical application is even possible.

Step by step, slowly but steadily.


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## RangiSTaxi (Mar 4, 2020)

I dont know the science behind why it works, i just know it does, we are talking about 30 - 60 watts of RED 660nm, I guess its just not enough to prevent the hormones building up during the dark period, I guess that is the obvious conclusion, also many fast flowering varieties have been breed to flower and initiate flowering quickly.

Please Just Try it Yourself , 12 hours White light / 12 hours red 10x 660nm and 2 x far Red. , Ive listed the light strip and the driver I have used.
The Plants do start flowering from Veg Stage to finishing. Bring a veg plant into 12 hours White light / 12 hours red 10x 660nm and 2 x far Red and it will start flowering and continue flowering. My main white light is a HLG 550, over summer peak heat ,i dialed it down to 350 watts, yes i was surprised at first too. I grow in shallow trays.

Some times seeing is believing, Try it [email protected]*Kassiopeija @Dr. Who*

You may think you know everything, give it a go yourself. You can Apologize later, try it in a sealed tent like i have done, no light leaks.

*https://www.cutter.com.au/product/ssk-1560-730_660/*

The driver from* https://www.digikey.co.nz/product-detail/en/mean-well-usa-inc/APC-25-700/1866-1125-ND/7702576*

Seedmans BIG nugs FAST photoperiod seeds was the fastest to flower and finish under this if testing. world of seeds Pakistan valley also flowers under this quickly as does, northern lights, blue dream, kosher kush, Alaskan purple. I haven't attempted this on any long flowering sativas , but it definitely does trigger flowering on fast flowering varieties, all photoperiod seeds.

Note the driver 700mA 11 ~ 36V Constant Current LED Driver 

I have a Lux Meter LUX is between 900 and 1300 at plant height under Red Light at night.* 
*
give it a go, let me know.

*@**Dr. Who , I** have worked in commercial horticulture all my life,and im not exactly young, in nursery production, fruit production and in floriculture, native plants in my said country as production manager, the largest native plant nursery in my country, Phaelnopsis and Cymbidium in the largest orchid nursery in the southern hemiphere as production manager, strawberry production, in ground and hydroponics, Kiwifruit and Avocados born and breed all my life since 11 years of age, currently managing the family orchard 16 hectares, gold G9 Kiwifruit , Hass Avocados, Im also a horticulture consultant. Im no idiot when it comes to horticulture.*.*Admittedly im no expect on cannabis but have grown it for over 15 years, im still learning, like you.*


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## RangiSTaxi (Mar 5, 2020)

Dr. Who said:


> NO! You can not expose plants to the 600nm bands for over 14 hrs and have blooming continue.


Yes You Can Ive proven it, Try it yourself and see, for yourself!

Lets Prove you wrong , Order Seedmans big nugs fast, photoperod seeds.

Veg seedlings to desired height under 24 hours of white light or just run 12 white 12 red from clone or seedling start to finish.

Buy the cutter strip 10 x 660mn leds with 2 far red leds 730mn with the driver i purchased.

Add the plants to a tent, to rule out light leaks, I bet your top dollar those plants will show sex within 2-3 weeks max (likely much sooner, if clones or mature seedlings older than 2 weeks) and will continue flowering till harvest, which will be very good yield and dense buds.

Although i used hlg 550 leds im sure you will get the same results under hps, maybe even faster to show sex and flower.

trial it and post your progress here. *@Dr. Who*

I challenge everyone else here to do the same and post results.

Dont tell me it doesn't work till you try it yourself, photoperiod Cannabis plants do flower under 660nm bands even at 24 hours, i run my reds with the white light for 12 hours than the white light goes off for 12 hours leaving only the red strip for 12 hours usually known as the dark period.

They flower and continue to do so till harvest.

It definitely may have a commercial use, the cannabis industry is young compared to other horticultural crops which are also evolving at a fast pace.


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 5, 2020)

Yes I will try this it's hands down the most intriguing light technique I've found so far. But Im still vegging here, my flowering main tent needs an upgrade in light, Im still waiting for some for some stuff, which seems to delayed because of SARS-2.

One problem we have is how to do a valid comparison? Because, this method uses up more energy, so it would only justify if a better g/w ratio comes out.... but I only have 2 tents, Id have to construct two similar boxes and work with clones. 
Hah! why not? that would be fun, I could scoop up some more skills 

Last night I formulated a theory, I think I can explain whats happening here.... I wrote Bugbee a letter, lets just wait for an answer...

BTW what does 'TORR' mean? is this an abreviation? 



RangiSTaxi said:


> Seedmans BIG nugs FAST photoperiod seeds was the fastest to flower and finish under this if testing. world of seeds Pakistan valley also flowers under this quickly as does, northern lights, blue dream, kosher kush, Alaskan purple. I haven't attempted this on any long flowering sativas , but it definitely does trigger flowering on fast flowering varieties, all photoperiod seeds.


Actually sativas are my preferred regiment, so we complement perfectly. It should work on any strain... although not sure on ruderalis... Im still waiting for seeds plus I hope to get some promising new genetics in 10 days at the annual Spannabis mess.


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 5, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> leaving only the red strip for 12 hours usually known as the dark period.


just to be sure, when you write "reds" does this also include the 2 730nms?


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## Dr. Who (Mar 5, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> Yes You Can Ive proven it, Try it yourself and see, for yourself!
> 
> Lets Prove you wrong , Order Seedmans big nugs fast, photoperod seeds.
> 
> ...


Question. So what is the plant getting from that? What positive return do you get? Shorter bloom time? What about yields? Anything is likely to be minor at BEST - AND I'll bet the end quality is effected. And not in a good way. 

I'll put my potential grown results up against that method.....

No thanks but, I believe you then....
Commercial applications? Nope, doubt that 100%.

I see no real benefit in the long term... What is it really doing for the plant?
For 1 thing? Your running 730nm bands with it. Your confusing the plant as 730's are the photo signal for the plant to change over to lights out plant process's! I'm telling you right now. The plant in bloom may not appear to "require" a lights out period BUT, your depriving it of natural periods of plant process that does NOT happen at any other time!

You know what? It just occurred to me that the plant is in a perpetual loop of attempting to "sleep and still getting the 600 range, staying partly awake.

I suggest you deeply research the light saturation point in C3 plants. Understanding just what is going on during the lights out period and what it's doing for the plant, is a solid step to understanding that need. This is just part of what the plants doing at lights out too.

Bet you stop vegging for 24 hrs after learning this too...

Everyone trying to play with lighting times.....It's been done somewhere and likely in the lab they began the 730 testing in..... Funny you don't see them in commercial use - do you?


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## Dr. Who (Mar 5, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> but this is what this guy has been illustrating in this very thread. Why didn't the plants reveg? And his plants do not look wasted or irregular or whatever... they look healthy a lot.
> What I'm searching for a theory explaining this observed behaviour. How would you explain what you can see here in this thread?


The plants were "looping" by the exposure to the 730's - by trying to "sleep" and the 660's keeping them just at the edge of awake - from the constant 730 exposure.....

Value? Likely nothing really.



Kassiopeija said:


> Because of the DLI, I get that. I'm thinking something else:
> IF extra hours could be used for photosynthesis then the DLI (the amount of PAR photons needed per day) can be distributed over more time - which would either
> - reduce the ppfd requirements (if area/canopy to light out stays the same) OR
> - one could increase the area using the same luminosity.
> ...



Sigh...... Your focusing on one end of the pool - Like I said to the other guy.. DEEPLY research the light saturation point in C3 plants! This is just part of the story of what the plant is doing during lights out.
You remove that and what are you really getting?

I suggest you both search "Google scholar" over the regular google search engine too! Spend your coins to open papers or find someone with an active college "key".

There is more to light exposure then logic theory! Nature did not get it wrong....


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## Dr. Who (Mar 5, 2020)

Calling up a cpl of friends at MSU on this subject...
Will report back what they think...


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## RangiSTaxi (Mar 5, 2020)

I started this just as a idea to keep plants in Veg to cut power costs, but they started flowering on me.
No idea if it has any advantage at all for flowering, probably not.

Yes the light strip is 10 x 660mn and 2 far reds at 730mn. It's just what cutter had at the time, the strip with the least far reds, I really was just looking for 660mn at the time as I was just wanting to prevent flowering.

But they started flowering on me so I continued with it.

No advantage or disadvantage over 12/12 , that I can see. There may be uses I don't know.

As stated above the initial idea was to keep plants in Veg to cut power costs and give me a bit more stretch in veg as my nodes were too close and my plants were too compact and the plants were too bushy for my liking.

But they flowered.. possibly because the red light is too under powered to prevent flowering.


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 5, 2020)

Dr. Who said:


> Question. So what is the plant getting from that? What positive return do you get?


I don't know, yet, let's simply find out. If someone would've told me that in theory I'd have been likewise skeptical (revegging, herming)


Dr. Who said:


> Shorter bloom time?


Yes, possibly. Unless several side by sides have been done it's not ruled out at all. But the understanding of this process should come in advance, or, en route while testing.


Dr. Who said:


> What about yields?


shorter bloom time equates higher yields if one runs perpetual.


Dr. Who said:


> Anything is likely to be minor at BEST - AND I'll bet the end quality is effected. And not in a good way.


How can you know that? 


Dr. Who said:


> You know what? It just occurred to me that the plant is in a perpetual loop of attempting to "sleep and still getting the 600 range, staying partly awake.


Yes, it could very well be that the 660nm light hinders the buildup of Pfr - but if it would do so on a somewhat broader scale the plant wouldn't even start to flower, or, revegg! But it doesn't. This could have several reasons... and this is exactly what I want to find out.

There's also 730nms present - constantly, somewhat forceing the buildup of Pfr - enforcing flower while still allowing the plant to be wake.
But it's not even much Far Red at all.



Dr. Who said:


> I suggest you deeply research the light saturation point in C3 plants. Understanding just what is going on during the lights out period and what it's doing for the plant, is a solid step to understanding that need. This is just part of what the plants doing at lights out too.


I understand what the light saturation point is, which I adressed here:


Kassiopeija said:


> Because of the DLI, I get that. I'm thinking something else:
> IF extra hours could be used for photosynthesis then the DLI (the amount of PAR photons needed per day) can be distributed over more time - which would either
> - reduce the ppfd requirements (if area/canopy to light out stays the same) OR
> - one could increase the area using the same luminosity.


and maybe you are right Doc but maybe this isn't even due to increased photosynthesis - there could be other factors at large:
What do you know about a plants wakeing up phase? If a plant is under 12 hours of uninterrupted darkness, and the (hard) lights go on at an instant - does the plant need some time to get the photosynthesis-apparat & its metabolism running - or is it at once running at 100%? I read the former... maybe the Torr does away with this ... so light can be used up more efficiently.
It could also be due to increased temperature/metabolism. 
Maybe this method doesn't give the plant more carbohydrates - but it may give a plant more time to do with said carbohydrates what it wants to do. 
Maybe a plant encounters a mild shock once lights go on at an instant - you're argueing alot with "the natural argument" - but this is also unnatural - in nature luminosity rises not so swiftly like in our indoor grow setting. The TORR method could mititgate that shock a little, making the transition smoother.

I'm living 3km away from an agricultural university - they have an open library there. All I need is more key words to search for - if you could grant me those - esp. for internal plant processes that happen through the night-phase.



Dr. Who said:


> Bet you stop vegging for 24 hrs after learning this too...


I know some professional grow shop in Austria that sell cuts from cup-winning strains who veg entirely for 24/0. They do fine. Photorespiration does happen during the day-time, too, otherwise these plants would die due to toxic buildup.

This article proves that 24/0 light can even get better results than 18/6, please read carefully it's very interesting:








The future of agriculture is computerized


Researchers at the MIT Media Lab Open Agriculture Initiative have used computer algorithms to determine the optimal growing conditions to improve basil plants’ taste by maximizing the concentration of flavorful molecules known as volatile compounds.




news.mit.edu





And I'm not even saying that plants under the TORR method see the 660nms + 730nms as "day" - maybe it's just night for them due to insufficient luminosity; let's make a small logical abstract:

Conventional 12/12:
Lights on: high luminosity
Lights out: NOT high luminosity

TORR:
Lights on: high luminosity
Lights out: NOT high luminosity

--> it's the same.

Heck, maybe it's not even from the 660nm but from the 730nms during the whole night instead of just 15mins...? More Pfr buildup.



Dr. Who said:


> Funny you don't see them in commercial use - do you?


How much worth is 1g of tomato? 1g of paprica? 1g of lettuce? And 1g of CANNABIS??? Maybe some hardware simply doesn't justify on conventional cheap foodcrops. Since the legalization did happen in the US Cannabis evolved in market shares up to the gold sector.... just look at the LED sector - they still develop lights with better and better light spectrum - the McCree Action spectrum has been known for a long, long time - but in the meantime we had an evolution of plurple into Cree COBS whites, then white strip boards, now sunspectrum boards incl. UV. Are you saying we have already reached the end of the tunnel and already know it all when it comes to nature or plant physiology? Why then are scientists still doing studies?

 no offense ment Doc - I'm partly playing _advocatus diaboli_ here  - and I'm eager to read what your collegues say - perhaps they could sign up here and post directly? 

TLDR: 
I remain optimistic, and am far too curious to find out, but calling it a day now 
Best regards


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 5, 2020)

@RangiSTaxi
I'm undecisive if I should primarily order 660nms or 730nms... plus I'd like to increase the luminosity of these considerably - considering I put my plants in flower under a 150w HPS... I have to cover a 1.44m^2 area, maybe 16*730nms and 32*660nms? Which are supporting 4*Cree COBs @75w each, which is too low for that area, but plan to combine that with a center HID... that could even be a 150w or 250w HPS which I could leave on during the night, as well.

edit:
BTW how great is the area you light out with your setup? Would it perhaps possible to disconnect the 2 730nms? Perhaps block the light, in order to reduce variables.... 
what do you think, if you would just do a guess, how much could you increase the 660nm luminosity before something unexpected happens?


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## Dr. Who (Mar 5, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> shorter bloom time equates higher yields if one runs perpetual.


Only by volume produced over time......The time gained in about anything I have tried - Not cost effective!



Kassiopeija said:


> How can you know that?


Schooling



Kassiopeija said:


> There's also 730nms present - constantly, somewhat forceing the buildup of Pfr - enforcing flower while still allowing the plant to be wake.
> But it's not even much Far Red at all.


It takes almost 2 hrs in nature to induce.
In doors under HID, about the same.
730 nm band LED's take less then 15 min to do the same thing.
The looping is self perpetuating.....I want plant gains recorded, by acceptable scientific method.....
So far we have logic theory...



Kassiopeija said:


> I know some professional grow shop in Austria that sell cuts from cup-winning strains who veg entirely for 24/0. They do fine. Photorespiration does happen during the day-time, too, otherwise these plants would die due to toxic buildup.
> 
> This article proves that 24/0 light can even get better results than 18/6, please read carefully it's very interesting:
> 
> ...


I still strongly disagree. This comes from 45+ years of working this plant.... I do not say the plant can't grow, and grow well under 24/0. I don't believe that you can reach top potentials with it's practice...

The gains are again, not worth the cost of...



Kassiopeija said:


> Conventional 12/12:
> Lights on: high luminosity
> Lights out: NOT high luminosity
> 
> ...


NO, IT"S NOT!! and the proof is in exactly HOW you said it!

You need to correct the statement of the first part under Conventional...
LIGHTS OUT should be NO luminosity!!!

Part two would be In the TORR section...
While correct in a way.
I might be inclined to change it to LOW Luminosity..

Now some years ago. I stuck a plant outside - near a High watt CFL - say over 20 ft away..

The side of the plant that was exposed to the light. Took 2+ weeks longer to finish then the shaded side.

This is an example of low light exposure - NO herming, No balls, No stress induced reproduction....
The little tiny bit of light you might get from a pin hole or something in a tent. Was never the cause of herming. It was simply not understood at the time why and it was a fair guess.

Now I understand that there is a big difference in the light bands.. It's part/all of the reason the plant is not revegging.

But I still say the returns will not equal some breakthrough in new lighting methods! Lets just says I've been around too long and have enough class and lab time to say this isn't going far....

I'll wait and see what happens... BTW, I have several call backs from MSU coming tonight... these proffs are on the front line. Lets see what they say..

Offence? None taken! Enjoying the debate!


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## RangiSTaxi (Mar 5, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> @RangiSTaxi
> I'm undecisive if I should primarily order 660nms or 730nms... plus I'd like to increase the luminosity of these considerably - considering I put my plants in flower under a 150w HPS... I have to cover a 1.44m^2 area, maybe 16*730nms and 32*660nms? Which are supporting 4*Cree COBs @75w each, which is too low for that area, but plan to combine that with a center HID... that could even be a 150w or 250w HPS which I could leave on during the night, as well.
> 
> edit:
> ...


Hi Kassiopeija/DrWho, I have 2 tents,both with the same setup, only one is active at the moment, The area of the tent is 4x4 my main light is a HLG 550 light is about 45cm above the plants, the red strip is in the middle of the HLG 550. I dont know if increasing the red luminosity would prevent flowering, it might I expect, however these reds are very bright visually, Lux around 900-1300 at plant height at 45cm-50cm above the canopy.
I recommend trying some fast flowering varieties with the method like seedsman big nugs fast as I think they will start flowering sooner and easier than say longer flowering varieties. I cant say regarding the 660nm or 730nm, all I know is I have 10 660nm and 2 far reds, (the layout of the reds can be clearly seen in the pics) One might assume all 730nm just at night would work better, but I haven't tested. The advantage of the 660mn is added photosynthesis. If you change things your results may vary. you could tape over the far reds with thermal tape I imagine if you wanted to try all 660mn with the cutter strip, I will see out this grow and probably forget the reds entirely. As Im using the reds with the whites it probably makes no sense to have the far reds going during day light hours but simply haven't bothered setting them on a timer I just have the reds going 24/7 and the white HLG 550 V1 is on a 12 off 12 on timer. also I veg at 24 hours simply because Im lazy and couldn't be bothered adding a timer, I agree that 18/6 or 20/4 would probably be better in veg for root growth, I think under 24 hours you get more stem leaf growth at the expense of root growth, well thats been my experience, but either 24, 18/6 or 20/4 is fine by my books.
I haven't being trying to do things the best I could, or using best practice, its simply been just a side hobby and not that important to me at the moment.
Basically been a no effort lazy grow. Not trying to prove anything here just showing whats been happening. Why I dont know, its been unexpected.
I haven't even feed any nutrients just water. I will update the progress, but its looking like the quality will be fine.
A lot of Stretch though but these are un tipped plants, no topping.
Part of the potting mix was used potting mix as I didnt have enough new stuff, hence the old dead leaves you can see on the ground from the previous grow. Also its been very hot as its summer here, and temps have been excessive above 35 degrees at times, although running at 22-24 degrees now as I have air con going now and we are moving closer to Autumn now, also with shallow trays I wonder if this lowers the flowering threshold some what. Stressed plants tend to flower easier. Although I have done over 4 grows (2 Tents) now with different strains and they all flower, often quicker to initiate and finish than usual it seems. World of seeds Pakistan valley finished in 30-35 days ( the fastest turn over ive ever had, it was just crazy. The Plants in the photos are Garden of Greens Kosher Kush seeds.


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 6, 2020)

Hello Doc & RangiSTaxi 


Dr. Who said:


> Not cost effective!


This is not an argument for me in this case - because we are here inquiring into a phenomenae which we do not fully understand, so the practical or economical application must wait until the mechanism at large is fully understand and then we first can venture on to find a pragmatic solution. I'm also not a commercial grower but merely a homegrower so my main attitude is to understand how plants do work and what tools we do have at our disposal to get them to where we want. It's not about money, really...

Think about this: Space on earth is limited. Human population is exponentionally growing. At some point humans won't be able to be fed. At that point, it will be more of an interest to increase the harvest output of the area at hand - even if it means food will become more expensive. Then the money will be there.



Dr. Who said:


> Schooling


which should enable to explain your position using precise scientific discipline-specific terms or disprove an opponents alleged wrong points by it, and you should already know, and be able to refer to the relevant scientific studies of the matter at hand.
Only pointing out thast your more intelligent than me is not satisfactory to me, at all 

A few years ago I read about Sir Karl Popper, which established some scientific standards, one is the concept of falsification. He also spent a large part of his time to divide genuine science from pseude-science - one of the main factors in doing is so is the concept of criticism - which needs transparency in advance. You shouldn't hide your logical rationales from me, nor your sources, because *maybe* they are not relevant in this case, or you've misinterpreted them. I need the chance to backcheck this:


Dr. Who said:


> I suggest you deeply research the light saturation point in C3 plants. Understanding just what is going on during the lights out period and what it's doing for the plant, is a solid step to understanding that need. This is just part of what the plants doing at lights out too.


do you perhaps have a few more keywords, with internal plant processes that are relevant in this case. Especially such of what plants to in the dark phase.
The University of Hohenheim is nearby and they do have an open library, where even visitors are allowed to do silent reading, or photocopying of texts. However, these sources are plentyful... I need to have keywords to plough through the glossary... it would also save me time....



Dr. Who said:


> I still strongly disagree. This comes from 45+ years of working this plant.... I do not say the plant can't grow, and grow well under 24/0. I don't believe that you can reach top potentials with it's practice...


Thing is this article states that an AI can grow plants better than humans. The evaluated that by THE RESULTS! Furthermore, it's not a single isolated study but has grown into a multinational worldy experiment - I've followed the links to their forums. They are offering the AI routines free to download in an open source project and growers of all kinds of indoor vegetables are reporting back with their results, and feed additional data which the scientists use to better the AI source code - even the AI is self-learning and will get better and better over time, as the data at its disposal is ever-mounting. This is something new, yes, in stark contrast of the old school teachings. Nevertheless, the evidence is there.

I wonder what the AI would do if someone gives it the control over a fully automated, climate-controlled cannabis grow chamber?



Dr. Who said:


> NO, IT"S NOT!! and the proof is in exactly HOW you said it!
> 
> You need to correct the statement of the first part under Conventional...
> LIGHTS OUT should be NO luminosity!!!
> ...


Well, there are many ways to do logical abstractations, and mine wasn't violating the logical rational rules to begin with. But the question in charge is if this logic does actually apply here - or not.
I'm drawing a different logical abstractation because I operate under a different pre-text:
I ASSUME that "low lights" equates "no lights" because I ASSUME (again) that plants do have a certain inbuilt tolerance, or internal breaking point (for a lack of a better word....). This is not fully arbitrary, because I already know that these kinds of "breaking points" do exist - e.g. the Pfr-hormone buildup - it crosses a certain threshold, and the plant goes from veg to gen.
There's also this:





Compensation point - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org












Lichtkompensationspunkt – Wikipedia







de.wikipedia.org









I wonder if the 900-1300 lux have already crossed the sunplant ("Sonnenpflanze") line? 
We need someone here that can do the math of converting 660nms lux into uMol... (@Grow Lights Australia @hybridway2)



Dr. Who said:


> Now some years ago. I stuck a plant outside - near a High watt CFL - say over 20 ft away..
> 
> The side of the plant that was exposed to the light. Took 2+ weeks longer to finish then the shaded side.


But a CFL has a different output than a 660nm mono - but actually I don't know. CFLs come in all sorts of different colors, but from what I've seen from them they have generally several spikes and a much broader distribution on the bandwiths than a mono - much broader.

I'm also thinking that blue light is more of a telltale sign for plants to "awake" than red - it would make sense from a certain standpoint.
I wonder if you'd come to the same results with just 660nms, or a 660/730 combo.



Dr. Who said:


> This is an example of low light exposure - NO herming, No balls, No stress induced reproduction....


Yes, this alleged of "herming" due to light leaks has never appealed to me at all. Herming is still natural in cannabis and the "stress" induced to provocate it may as well being not pollenized (which is unnatural). If light leaks could do all these sorts of things the plant would also revegg at some places. 



RangiSTaxi said:


> however these reds are very bright visually, Lux around 900-1300 at plant height


that's not much at all - during a normal day phase lux is around 30k-80k - otherwise they'll stretch. So, 1k lux could as well interpretated from the plant as being night. There are actually some plants which are in conjunction with the moon-phases because they still can sense the light of the moon during the night.



RangiSTaxi said:


> no sense to have the far reds going during day light hours


AFAIK daylight destroys the Pfr-buildup rather quickly so yes... but on the other hand the 730nm band is also contained in sunlight, so I'm not sure...



RangiSTaxi said:


> 20/4 is fine by my books.


Yeah if you finish with FR that would be a good setting for veg



RangiSTaxi said:


> A lot of Stretch though


Donno I find them just about to be perfect. Bewcause, if you have too dense plants then light penetration into the bottom or middle parts of the plant is going to suffer. Also hybrid buds can take on a somewhat more elongated form than mostly indica strains so they can use that space.



RangiSTaxi said:


> although running at 22-24 degrees


For LED that's a tad too low - but the real figure is leaf temperature - that should be around 25°C minimum. You have an IR pointer pistol to measure that? For LED 30°C ambient is still very good.



RangiSTaxi said:


> World of seeds Pakistan valley finished in 30-35 days ( the fastest turn over ive ever had, it was just crazy.


How do these buds look?

BTW thanks for the pics, your setup looks nice



RangiSTaxi said:


> I started this just as a idea to keep plants in Veg to cut power costs, but they started flowering on me.


Yeah this is why I've been confused initially and asked some questions^^ maybe change the title then to TORR flowering or else?


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## hybridway2 (Mar 6, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> Hello Doc & RangiSTaxi
> 
> This is not an argument for me in this case - because we are here inquiring into a phenomenae which we do not fully understand, so the practical or economical application must wait until the mechanism at large is fully understand and then we first can venture on to find a pragmatic solution. I'm also not a commercial grower but merely a homegrower so my main attitude is to understand how plants do work and what tools we do have at our disposal to get them to where we want. It's not about money, really...
> 
> ...


Sorry bud but my math is limited to counting 50, 20's to G. Lol!
I'm more About results in the garden.


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 6, 2020)

@RangiSTaxi 
btw the CMX fert isn't available here in my country, and an import from the UK is 30€/l - too expensive. However, the concept of slicing out P & K seems intriguing to me - under a certain standpoint: Could it be that it gives a full fertilizer when used in combo with a PK fert like PK 13/14? Then one could use this for the full cycle like A & B, just you dosage PK low in veg, but higher from mid-to-end flower?
I've been at the homesite but wasn't able to see a full list of ingredients - are these listed at the bottle? Because I wonder if S is also contained and at what strength the micronutes are contained?


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## RangiSTaxi (Mar 6, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> @RangiSTaxi
> btw the CMX fert isn't available here in my country, and an import from the UK is 30€/l - too expensive. However, the concept of slicing out P & K seems intriguing to me - under a certain standpoint: Could it be that it gives a full fertilizer when used in combo with a PK fert like PK 13/14? Then one could use this for the full cycle like A & B, just you dosage PK low in veg, but higher from mid-to-end flower?
> I've been at the homesite but wasn't able to see a full list of ingredients - are these listed at the bottle? Because I wonder if S is also contained and at what strength the micronutes are contained?


Hi Kassiopeija, I just like using CMX as it maintains the dark leaf color, due to the iron, iron increases nitrogen uptake availability, it has a little nitrogen and all other trace elements, it prevents chlorosis. The Dark green leaf color is often lost after the switch to 12/12 from veg, and ofcourse it also prevents cal/mag issues mid/late flower, it also keeps the leaves a deep dark color under intense flowering lights, but im sure there are many other products that will do the same. Iron Chelate for example is extreamly cheap and you dont need much. notice my plants in the photos have lost color and are not dark green, CMX would prevent this, but for this grow im not adding nutrients to prevent variables, im sure i could get a better yields with CMX and potassium silicate, or A and B nutrient supplementation, p/k heavy boosters etc etc, but will let this run through with just plain water this time.

Valagro Radifarm is a good product too, check that out to for veg and halve dosages for early flower, root growth is impressive.









Radifarm


RADIFARM® is designed for application during transplanting and / or in the early stages of development of the various crops. The product not only nourishes the plants in their early stages, but also promotes the formation of an extensive root ...



www.valagro.com





Its a commercial product i use on many crops with great results.



link -


CMX - FlairFormCMX | Calcium, magnesium & iron additive


CMX is a cal-mag additive used for preventing nutrient deficiency symptoms. Unlike other brands, CMX also contains all trace elements (Fe, Cu, Mn, Zn, Mo, B). im not sure about sulfur? but there is a link on the bottle in the photo for more detailed info. Its basically a supliment not a stand alone formula even if you add P/K

When using CMX i usually add Acadian soluble seaweed powder

link- https://horticentre.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/Technical Sheets/Acadian - Technical sheet.pdf

Its great stuff too.

As im in the commercial horticulture industry, i have availability of a lot of commercial products that many hydro shops or home gardener shops wont stock and often the commercial products come in quantities that would be too much for the standard home grower. i.e products that come in quantities that do 1 hectare to 100 hectares per bottle. many over $600 a liter.

There are a lot of great products I would use if i was trying to grow the best cannabis but most of them are not available to the general public.

The Commercial Cannabis industry is so young it has a lot of catching up to do in research compared to the rest of the horticulture industry which has fine tuned production for its crops, by comparison the cannabis industry is fairly small in comparison and most of the knowledge from other sectors will be cross platform and applicable to the cannabis sector.

To answer your question : Could it be that it gives a full fertilizer when used in combo with a PK fert like PK 13/14?

The answer would be no, it would not work well as a stand alone nutrient with PK 13/14 in say hydroponics, in soil or potting mix, yes it would work as a supplement to general potting mix, although i would add kelp/seaweed with it. simply put it would depend on your growing media so its a open ended question.

P.s I have no ability to change the title of this thread, maybe you can email them and get it changed to something more fitting, im not worried what they call it, it was basically a veg method i thought would work and save power but the dam plants kept flowering on me and the result have been pretty decent, well at least as good as 12/12 with just the hlg 550, but ive had faster flowering, flower initiation seems faster , finishing seems faster especially on some varieties like seedsman big nugs fast and world of seeds Pakistan valley( yes the quality of those buds are great for that strain), they were definitely much faster than normal, at a cost to yield hard to say, but all plants with just 2 weeks veg from germination have yielded over 65grams of quality buds per plant, with some smaller under buds lower down. maybe 15-25 grams or so., and i haven't been trying very hard, a lot of that will be genetic determined and for the best part i haven't been using good genetics, seedsmans Gelat.OG was surprisingly extremely good for the price and I can recommend growing that, solid nugs, very dense ,no small buds, fewer bud nodes but high quality weed , great smell, great taste, very hardy.


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## RangiSTaxi (Mar 6, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> Just to be absolutely clear, are you saying you are/did use light in the range of 660nm (Hyper Red) during the 12 hour lasting nightphase in flowering - and your plants didn't revegg? If so that would be absolutely mindblowing, I thought you did use 730nm exclusively... but 660nm is PAR... this is somewhat against the book, but let me tell you this: (and I hope I don't jump too early to conclusions now...)
> 
> I've build myself a new light for my vegtent 80x80cm out of old HIDS (which were laying around unused) just for jolly, it's a HPS + MH combined:
> View attachment 4495318
> ...


@Kassiopeija you have the passion and drive to be a leader in this industry, make no mistake plants do flower under the Torr method and do it bloody well. Everyone needs to read the thread start to finish, If only a single particular strain flowers well under the Torr method it will be the strain and method that takes over the market, now i don't care what anyone thinks, I have enough money to retire today in my 40s, but there is something in this, Kassiopeija, work it out and you will make a mint.

Is this Bud growth normal over 6 and 12 days? (especially considering they got a extremely heavy leaf defoliate) and environmental condition not exactly ideal?

here are the pics all documented right here, as are dates

Below are Buds produced in just 28 days to harvest time,
FROM HERE to those buds in 28 days, doesn't allow for bud drying time obviously , first thread post






Why the Bent down branch? quote by me, read post : Tent one looked like this on the 30th of November, after 2 in the same pot of 4 were harvested, (after just 28 days, wow thats record breaking fast) I bent down the 2 remaining longer flowering plants to fill in the space where the 2 early flowering plants were harvested from, to maximize light usage. yes 2 harvested plants after just 28 days. you cant see the stump where the first 2 plants were harvested from in the photos.

post link https://www.rollitup.org/t/torr-power-saving-veg-method.999199/#post-15184307







tell me that bloom growth is normal in a 12 day period. its insane. im sorry.It just is.

Try it yourself with the exact same setup, and you could be a leader in the industry.
This is what they looked like after just 6 days from the first photo.

First photo Nov 30, 2019

Third photo Dec 6, 2019

Second Photo Dec 12, 2019
Post links are:

https://www.rollitup.org/t/torr-power-saving-veg-method.999199/page-2#post-15196243 3rd photo

2nd photo
https://www.rollitup.org/t/torr-power-saving-veg-method.999199/#post-15186963 bottom 2 photos are tent 1, the photos above are tent 2 in the post and are not relevant

https://www.rollitup.org/t/torr-power-saving-veg-method.999199/#post-15178754 1 st photo.

links could be confusing as i have added photos from 2 tents, but these photos are the progress from tent 1.all documented for times from the first photo , to the second photo 6 days after to the 3rd photo 12 days later.
last photo is just 6 days after the leaf defoliate.


----------



## Kassiopeija (Mar 7, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> CMX would prevent this, but for this grow im not adding nutrients to prevent variables, im sure i could get a better yields with CMX and potassium silicate, or A and B nutrient supplementation, p/k heavy boosters etc etc, but will let this run through with just plain water this time.


what are you testing, Sir?

btw yes youre right Ive been confused as the description on CMX falsely states "contains full set of micros"...



RangiSTaxi said:


> I have no ability to change the title of this thread,


Nevermind I thought you were able to do so



RangiSTaxi said:


> after the leaf defoliate


yes, when the leaf defol hits the right time sometimes the re-growth can be explosive. Because the plant has a full rootsystem intact which otherwise could support a full leaf canopy. If you take that away, the plant focuses on upper growth to re-install the balance ratio of roots-vs-leaves.


----------



## Kassiopeija (Mar 8, 2020)

Here's an excerpt from an academic book on plant physiology which is shedding some light on the flowering process of Cannabis Indica. Unfortunately, it's in my mother language german, but I can translate the relevant parts and point out some keywords, so that you can understand the relevant graphics:


(Dieter Hess: Allgemeine Botanik)

KTP = short daylength plant
LTP = long daylength plant
kritische Dunkelperiode - critical dark phase (night time)
blüht = flowers
Stunden = hours
Störlicht = irritating light
HR = light/bright red (art.) light
DR = dark red (art.) light

"*Daylength and photoperiodic induction*_. Numerous plants require a specific day- or nighttimelength to induce flowering. We differentiate between shortdayplants (KTP) and longdayplants (LTP)._ (on p.269 Cannabis sativa is identified as shortdayplant - but I suspect only indica-related plants because sativas follow different rules, at least, that's my experience). _The critical daytimelength lies between 10 and 14 hours, depending on species. Shortdayplants induce flowering when their daytimelength falls below the critical threshold. Longdayplants when it falls above that threshold._ [...]

_The processes during the the dark periode are the ones relevant for flower-induction. When one gives irritating light during the dark period, shortdayplants will not induce flowering_ (this is why the Gas LanternRoutine works in Cannabis) [...]

_Place of perception are the leaves. The light absorption for this is mostly done in blue/UVA-receptors (--> p.277) and phytochrome, like has been identified in various studies involving lighting experiences. Because one can make the same pendulumplay involving lightred/darkred, like we've seen in the sprouting of lettuce (--> p. 131). Just that the active form of phytochrome(brightred) doesn't support the flowering induction but instead, hinder it (graphic 4.3.7). From the various phytochromes the most important is phytochrome B."_


In this graphic the relevant flowering-inducing genes and their pathway expression is show:

what I find remarkable is that the photoperiodic daytimelength is clearly shown as being determined by bluelight or UVA (Photoperiode: Blau oder UV-A)

@Dr. Who this is some evidence which confirms my theory and it would also explain why my photoperiodic plants did flower under 18/6 of constant light: only 12h of these 18h were filled with blue/UV - the rest was 6h HPS light + 6h dark.

Now if this theory is true, then maybe I can even bring Cannabis to flower under 24h over consecutive hard HID light:
24h HPS + 12h MH:
12h day: HPS + MH (was 50k lux at canopy in my setup)
12h night: HPS (was 30k lux at my canopy...)
--> increase of 3/5th in possibly PAR; ie. lowering the ppfd-requirements by 3/5th if one hits the Daily Light Integral with the combination of day+night light.

Especially on LED boards that operate blue diodes & red diodes on separate channels, this could decrease the amount of necessary diodes by MUCH; or: increase the area to light out by the same percentage (ie: board could be placed higher).

I find this especially important because we're talking here about photoperiodic plants, where we traditionally reduce the amount of light that can be
given from 18/6 to 12/12 - a decrease of 50%. To compensate, we increase luminosity. This means:
- hardware potential in veg is not fully utilized
- locale leaf temperature rises through increased lux
- unnatural state: luminosity goes up at the beginning of flower when in nature it actually gradually sinks. shortdayplants usually get the highest lux in mid-to-late veg phase.
- late in flower lots of plants loose fanleaves which reduces the surface area with which to do photosynthesis. Plants do have less potential then to fabricate & store carbohydrates.
- We cannot increase lux endlessly to compensate the lack of photo-potential because of the dangers of photo-destruction after crossing the light saturation point.

24h of light could mean lesser evolved rootsystem. However, in generative mode plants gradually form less and less roots - as they put all thier power into the buildup of flowers. So this disadvantage is mitigated a bit.

The book then ventures on to explain the underlying genes which are responsible for flowering expression (as seen in the illustration above) - the gene CO (CONSTANS) seems to be critical for this. This knowledge is drawn from the plant thale cress (_Arabidopsis thaliana)_ - which is a rolemodel-plant in genetics and which is very close to Cannabis - as both are rosids (read more about this in the wiki link given).
According to the text it is the gene CONSTANS that induces flowering and which is expressed over a pathway initiated by "Cryptochrom 2 [CRY2]" stimulated by blue/UVA light. The book tells this in somewhat vague terms, so I went to wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptochrome
this sentence is particularily interesting:
"_A double loss-of-function mutation in Arabidopsis thaliana Early Flowering 3 (elf3) and Cry2 genes delays flowering under continuous light and was shown to accelerate it during long and short days, *which suggests that* Arabidopsis *CRY2 may play a role in accelerating flowering time during continuous light*.__[15]_" [*bolding* by me]

and:
"Despite much research on the topic, cryptochrome photoreception and phototransduction in _Drosophila_ and _Arabidopsis thaliana_ is still poorly understood."
--> this could explain why the industry doesn't make use of this Doc - maybe we're in unchartered territory here :O

but: (from the reference [15] study
https://academic.oup.com/jxb/article/62/8/2731/476001
"_Abstract:_ [...]_ *The results suggest that CRY2 may play more essential roles in the acceleration of flowering under LL than LDs or SDs.*_" [!]
LL = continous light (24/0),
LD = longday (18/6),
SD = shortday (10/14)

I find this sentence absolutely remarkably! If this is true then perhaps an LED board could simply induce flowering by giving light off which stimulates the responsible cryptochromes, and not with a changed/increased dark phase.
If it is further true that this way flowering is not also induced - but also ACCELERATED - then, the combination of both advantages ("more potential light" + accelerated flowering] could mean a drastic paradigm change in the way indoor crops are lighted out.

RangiSTaxi already pointed out a significant decrease in flowering time, from commonly 60-80 days down to ~35. I'm estimating an increase in area lighting out by up to 50%. Combine both, harvest could be increased considerably (with more energy + more area used)

So if this all is true, an LED manufacturer who incorporates this knowledge would be able to beat even the best-quality reference boards in a direct comparison by perhaps a minimum of 150% more dry harvest [@Grow Lights Australia, @ANC]

Disclaimer: The book I draw these info's from is not the newest, so to speak. However, the infos available has all been gathered by empirical methods - they are valid.

Have a nice sunday my friends 



RangiSTaxi said:


> @Kassiopeija you have the passion and drive to be a leader in this industry [...] Kassiopeija, work it out and you will make a mint.


LMAO actually I'm a just a poor homegrower... I fought a severe depression for almost a decade - in this time, only reading was possible. My preferred topics: Natural sciences: biology, physics, chemistry (in that order). So my purse is empty - but my head full XD and maybe if I would live in a country like the US where the state offers alot of potential to live "the American dream" I could maybe fill that purse, but here in rusty Germany? don't think so... :/


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 8, 2020)

on a sidenote, if we examine the systematic info as given in pic 4.3.7 then it appears that we can give a shortday plant light during the nightphase - but we would have to end this phase always with darkred light to keep the plant inside the flowering mechanism.


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 8, 2020)

btw it's well known that C3 plants can reach lightlevels which do damage the plant, unlike C4 which have a much higher tolerance. I donno but some time in flower cannabis seems to profit from increased lightlevels. just think about the folks who use 730nms for sleep initiation - once they have it 15mins at the end of the daytime, they'll up lightimes by +1,5hours - why? They could instead leave it at 12/12 and gain mpre Pfr hormone buildup. But they go for more light instead. The TORR method makes even more light accessably.

@RangiSTaxi I think I follow you torring in about 4-6 weeks. I've just thought how I could create that in my 1.2mx1.2m tent and I got already all parts here:
4*Cree 3500k without blend @75w near each corner - at 18/6 and 12/12 - main photosynthesis light
1*250w HPS center vertical - at 24/0 or 20/4 - add. bloom photosynthesis light + IR + FR
4*730nm 5w monos at the corners - FR 12/12 or 24/0
8*660nm 5w monos arranged in a mediumbig quadrat shape - HR 24/0
4*UVA 405 5w mono in every corner - UVA 16/8 and 10/14
4*UVB 365 5w mono in every side - UVB 16/8 and 10/14

UVC would also be nice for accelerated plant destruction in perhaps a single 30mins to 1h outburst, which would also sterilize the environment, but I don't have more places at the racks available.

This is 570w of light on 1.44m2 it should do.


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## RangiSTaxi (Mar 9, 2020)

*turned off the lights to take these photos*


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## RangiSTaxi (Mar 9, 2020)

*yes we have gone from*


*
to this in 2-3 days*


2-3 days from above pic to bottom picture. in my book that is impressive. And I can Prove it. in fact ill add a placard to every photo to prove times and dates all documented here, and no defoliation this time @*Kassiopeija *


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## RangiSTaxi (Mar 9, 2020)

@Dr. Who
@Kassiopeija
@Renfro
 The Torr Method in action.


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## Dr. Who (Mar 11, 2020)

@Kassiopeija 
@RangiSTaxi 

I am recovering from a surgery and will return shortly.

Kass, interesting things you gave, to be sure. I'll retort later.

Rangi, Nice pics, don't get me wrong here,,,,,you can put a placard in front of any plants.....NOT THAT YOUR CHEATING but,,,, Not exactly accepted verification either.

STILL, I find it interesting. How long in bloom total? 
What are your feeds? Exactly please...
I see a tad of high N there. I tickle N in early bloom to get a faster and more positive flower set.... Again, Not that it's what your doing But, complete feeding info will also tell me a lot about what your plants are doing at this point.


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 11, 2020)

@Dr. Who 
I hope the surgery went well and you're already on the way of recovery, just take it easy



Dr. Who said:


> Not exactly accepted verification either.


Indeed. 
What we would need is a comparative simultanous grow in 2 completely equal climate controlled chambers, with variables reduced to the minimum possible (clones, substrate, feeding schedules, temps, rH, ppfd, DLI, total energy consumption etc) with the only difference being the light: conventional vs. TORR. 
But as of now, I'm not even convinced what increment exactly IS the TORR-method? Is the 730nm during the day necessary? Or during the night? Maybe only a 15min FR each hour during the night would also do? How much 660nm can be given during the night? 
--> being able to answer these questions could make a difference in energy consumption or hardware investments and thereby greatly influence the possibility of a viable economic application - IF increased harvest is to be found...

What we need to have is the formulation of a theory which could generally explain all observations which have hitherto been made. However, I do lack alot of knowledge when it comes to C3 plant flowering induction - most of what I know stems from grower-forums - and just the glimpse into 2 20 year old books by a prof in plantscience gives me hints that the natural reality is somewhat much more complex than naive broscience.

Especially the Pr-to-Pfr conversion mechanism is an enigma to me - I'm reading different informations about that... If light that falls on a leaf swiftly hinders the flowering process by destruction/reconversion of Pfr to Pr then why it's not happening with 660nm mono light or light emitted from a 150w HPS? (btw I've ordered a 250w HPS to test this by even more luminosity - my other 250w HID is a SHPS which has increased blue/white spectrum output so I shouldn't use it for this).
Is the 730nm constant nighttime light potentially suppressing this? Or providing more buildup than re-conversion? 

I'd like to backcheck on some of the initial studies done on the Pr-->Pfr mechanism - because I can vaguely remember that the conclusion of some of these studies were that the first & last PAR a plant gets to see is the HR from dusk or dawn. With the 730nm band following shortly thereafter, thus the writer of hese texts went on to conclude that therefore plants use 660nm vs 730nm to differentiate between day or night.
However, the initial assumption is WRONG! The very first & last light a plant gets to see is actually the emmision spectrum of water vapour (blue) - because the atmosphere above does have a better angle towards the rays of light steming from a sun that's already sunken below the horizon. That basically means that light which would actually not reach the ground is refractionated multiple times (at least, twice) - first upon entry in the earths atmosphere, and later, a second time when being absorbed by water-molecules and re-emitted homogenously in all directions - also, towards earth.

Half year ago I saw some photographical diagrams (possibly recorded by a pyranometer?) which did proof this without any doubt. I can't find them anymore... but it's actually easy for anyone to observe this with own eyes, just stay up early before dawn and when there's no moon in the sky - you'll see the first brighting up that happens each day is that the blackness of the nightsky is changed to deep blue with some of the stars fading - and only afterwards can the red glow at the horizon being observed.

And because plants do have so many different photoreceptor in the 400-550nm (also: UVA) spectrum sitting - with all these photons carrying a higher energy-charge than what's required for the photosynthetic reactioncenter, meaning always a portion of said energy is being left over and converted to heat - that leaves even more possibilites open for a plant to better "sense" this photonic influx, than the 550-700nm bandwith.


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## RangiSTaxi (Mar 11, 2020)

Dr. Who said:


> @Kassiopeija
> @RangiSTaxi
> 
> I am recovering from a surgery and will return shortly.
> ...


Wishing you a Speedy recovery. Just basic potting mix , store brought, all purpose Potting mix nothing fancy and basic tap water that is it.






Tui All Purpose Potting Mix


Ferns, palms, potted colour - it doesn't matter whether your corner of paradise is big or small, growing a plant can be one of life's great little pleasures. Tui All Purpose Potting Mix is specially formulated to give the best start to your indoor and outdoor plants in pots, containers and...




tuigarden.co.nz




Update


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## Dr. Who (Mar 17, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> @Dr. Who
> I hope the surgery went well and you're already on the way of recovery, just take it easy
> 
> 
> ...



Oh gosh. You got me all interested in this but, I'm not quite ready to sit in a chair for extended periods yet.

Everything went well, and I'll be back soon.... Therapy starts today. Odd thing is? Everything else is simply shut down here..... Well see how this goes as the Dr says this therapy is happening...

Peace out everybody


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 17, 2020)

Dr. Who said:


> Everything else is simply shut down here


same here... people are stockpiling food like mad... I wish you a swift recovery and try to avoid SARS-2 as best as you can... take it like an extended holidays at your farm


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## Dr. Who (Mar 25, 2020)

Getting better. Sitting in the 7R 310's and working is OK.... getting ready for beer crops....

Doing lots of fresh veggies this year also...... Demand will be high.
Glad my son's are home and working the farm too.... Our state is shut down and at least we get away with being a necessary business. All hands on deck as we scramble to shift food production gears.

BBL


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## viewer1020 (Apr 9, 2020)

This is a very interesting discussion, and I look forward to learning more. Thanks to RangiSTaxi for starting this, and thanks to all who have contributed!

I would love to try replicating the results and clarifying which red(s) are required or allowed for this effect to work, and which genetics respond best or at all. All toward understanding the underlying processes, regardless of whether it leads to efficiency gains. For now I remain an observer, but a very interested one!


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## RangiSTaxi (Apr 23, 2020)

viewer1020 said:


> This is a very interesting discussion, and I look forward to learning more. Thanks to RangiSTaxi for starting this, and thanks to all who have contributed!
> 
> I would love to try replicating the results and clarifying which red(s) are required or allowed for this effect to work, and which genetics respond best or at all. All toward understanding the underlying processes, regardless of whether it leads to efficiency gains. For now I remain an observer, but a very interested one!


For you Viewer1020 @viewer1020

Here is some Alaskan Purple Fem seeds from Seedsman in progress under the Torr Method.

The Top Leaves are a bit yellow because my light is too close , and are yellowing a little due to extreame light intensity, but im trying to max light penetration and intensity down to the very lowest buds, ill raise the light in 4 days and the top leaves will green up again.
This will be one solid block of buds in 3 weeks.


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## viewer1020 (Apr 24, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> Here is some Alaskan Purple Fem seeds from Seedsman in progress under the Torr Method.


That is a very beautiful sight!

How long ago did these sprout?


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## RangiSTaxi (Apr 25, 2020)

viewer1020 said:


> That is a very beautiful sight!
> 
> How long ago did these sprout?


germination was somewhere between 5-6 weeks ago. There is 5 plants in that 4x4 tent in one shallow tray. These have not been trained or topped at all, naturally bushy strain it seems, but they have had 1 leaf defoliation.
Plan to do *Gelato* #*33* by *Advanced Seeds in this tent next.*


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## RangiSTaxi (Apr 30, 2020)

*Alaskan Purple 6 days later from last update above*

*Some Purple Colors Now Appearing. *


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 2, 2020)

*Gelato* #*33* by *Advanced Seeds
This Tent (tent 1) is not Torr Method, From now on I will be using Normal 24 hours veg for 2 weeks and then flip to 12/12.
I will continue documenting some of my grows for interest only, strain reviews etc
This tents was flipped to 12/12 about 7-9 days ago after 2 weeks veg.
There are 4 plants in this tents, fem seedlings.
Im feeding potassium silicate with this grow, in the water, hence a few nutrient spots on the leaves from watering can , otherwise basic garden potting mix in a 15cm deep tray.*









Gelato #33 - Advanced Seeds


Genética: Sunset Sherbert x G.S.C Thin Mints Rendimiento: 550 - 600 gr/m2 THC: 25% Altura en interior: 90 - 120 cm Altura en exterior: 200 - 250 cm Floración en interior: 55 - 60 días. Cosecha en exterior: 15 - 30 Sept.



advancedseeds.com





This tent is almost ready for a heavy leaf defoliate.


----------



## RangiSTaxi (Jun 2, 2020)

Here is the last tent (tent 2) (undocumented, previously unseen until now ) that i will do with the Torr method to be harvested in a week or so, Alaskin purple and Kosher kush? i think?(left over seeds),as you can tell tent 2 has had no care, the seeds to replace them in this tent have popped up now and are
*Cookies Gelato from Royal Queen Seeds

I will hold these seedling under a 40watt led bar until tent 2 is harvested in a week or so.
At the point of transplant, they will be stood up vertical, so no worries.
Cookies Gelato from Royal Queen Seeds









Cookies Gelato strain Cannabis Seeds - Royal Queen Seeds


Cookies Gelato blends the best traits from Girl Scout Cookies and Gelato. She contains 28% THC and mouth-watering terpenes. Get the seeds here!




www.royalqueenseeds.com




*


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 2, 2020)

nice pics, how come this seedlings grew vertical? You had a wire mesh close to them perhaps?


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 2, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> nice pics, how come this seedlings grew vertical? You had a wire mesh close to them perhaps?


do you mean the gelato 33 ,no thats just how they grow naturally, no mesh , no tipping , no training, thats just how they grow.

Im guessing you mean horizontal.
if you mean the just germinated seedlings, they fell over due to the fast growth but lack of light,the stems are weak and the tops too heavy,
...but fear not they will be fine once they go in a tent with more light and get planted deep and upright.. its all good, all my plants are started like this but they end up fine, its just my germination lights fairly weak.. and i probably had it a bit too high initially.. but it makes no difference in the end.


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 3, 2020)

Update during a leaf defoliation, i found 1 of the 4 plants of *Gelato* #*33* by *Advanced Seeds *was a early stage *hermie,(rear left)*
I have cut this plant out and destroyed it, it has left a big hole in the tent canopy, very disappointed in this, and may not buy these seeds again as they are obviously not stable.
I may have to do some plant bending on the remaining 3 plants to try fill in the tent canopy. this will significantly affect this tents production.


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## Skewbong (Jun 3, 2020)

WOW. this is very innovative.


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 3, 2020)

Skewbong said:


> WOW. this is very innovative.


Cheers, yeah its been really interesting, certainly surprised me , was initially meant as a power saving veg method, until the plants started flowering under it, hopefully someone else will pick up on it and give it a try, Thanks for following along.
Im starting to wonder if some of these varieties that are faster flowering strains, say less than 8-9 weeks have some recessive auto genes in them and some how the Torr method triggers these otherwise recessive genes so that these photoperiod strains infact flower under 24 hours of light(12 red 12 white)=24 hours light?.


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## Skewbong (Jun 3, 2020)

You're deffinately on the right track to something interesting, and yes I will be following along, I'll probably try at some point, too many projects currently. Good luck man!


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## T macc (Jun 4, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> Update during a leaf defoliation, i found 1 of the 4 plants of *Gelato* #*33* by *Advanced Seeds *was a early stage *hermie,(rear left)*
> I have cut this plant out and destroyed it, it has left a big hole in the tent canopy, very disappointed in this, and may not buy these seeds again as they are obviously not stable.
> I may have to do some plant bending on the remaining 3 plants to try fill in the tent canopy. this will significantly affect this tents production.


That's shit. Bend em low, man


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 4, 2020)

T macc said:


> That's shit. Bend em low, man


yeah it sucks when you find a hermie, shit happens, yeah ill try bend them down low to fill in the gaps, but ive used a high dose of potassium silicate, http://flairform.com/products/additives/silikamajic/, so the stems are now rock hard stiff and brittle so it won't be easy.

Now that Potassium silicate brand is the best on the market, normal dosage is 0.2ml/L and ive been using 1.5ml/l , pretty hard to over dose with Potassium silicate but yeah ive probably been a bit over excessive, so bending will come to bite me in the bum now as these stems are thick and as hard as glass. stick to the recommended rates peeps lol. always use potassium silicate after bending, to set stems in place, never use it before bending.


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 4, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> Update: during a leaf defoliation, i found 1 of the 4 plants of *Gelato* #*33* by *Advanced Seeds *was a early stage *hermie,(rear left)*
> I have cut this plant out and destroyed it, I Now have to do some plant bending on the remaining 3 plants to try fill in the tent canopy.





T macc said:


> That's shit. Bend em low, man


*From This*

*To this, Defoliate and Hard Bend down low, Fill in light space, after 1 hermie plant removed*

Far left corner now filled in, where hermie plant was removed and destroyed.


T macc said:


> Bend em low, man


@T macc low enough? lol
Ground Zero


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 4, 2020)

looking good RangiSTaxi, theyll recover swiftly.


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 4, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> looking good RangiSTaxi, theyll recover swiftly.


hope so haha


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 4, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> Im guessing you mean horizontal.
> if you mean the just germinated seedlings, they fell over due to the fast growth but lack of light,the stems are weak and the tops too heavy,
> ...but fear not they will be fine once they go in a tent with more light and get planted deep and upright.. its all good, all my plants are started like this but they end up fine, its just my germination lights fairly weak.. and i probably had it a bit too high initially.. but it makes no difference in the end


yes horizontal indeed, somehow mixed that up. If you bury the stem under ground itll form roots out of it.

Ordered 125w of IR lamps (heat lamps) which should also gleam darkred - just more "broadbandish" than a 730nm mono diode.
Gonna hang them into the small tent for the night phase. Just to see the effect, because the heat alone could as well be responsible for a better growth ... (btw Rangi you got tropical climate over there?)

Re:genes
if the autogene trait would kick in (its given in the graph p.4) you wouldnt be able to *reveg* such a plant. Nor would they react to changes in the daytime length lightcycle... Test could be on a flowering branch, cut and put under 24h light diff chamber...


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 4, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> hope so haha


best of luck - had to use wire on my Malawis to undo the supercropping - they wouldnt have recovered if not straightened the stem again.... bitchy landrace XD


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 4, 2020)

@RangiSTaxi had a nice view on your city from the top of the mountain north  looks like a nice place to be, indeed


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 4, 2020)

NZ:





wonderful - calmly untouched nature.


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 5, 2020)

*Cheers Mate*_, yeah its a nice country, just leave the cities like_ *Auckland* o_n landing a.s.a.p in my opinion,a city is just another city after all,.

Lots to see rural,countryside,_ _North island and the South island of New Zealand are very different landscapes with different climates, so if you_r _visiting you should see both islands, this can be done within 2-3 weeks, but best if you allow 5.._

_I recommend coming in Spring, summer._

_A great thing about New Zealand is you can see many different landscapes like_ *Coromandel* _and different geography without driving very far, a hour drive and your in a different landscape, from flat to hilly, open wide grassy meadows in areas of the_ *waikato* _full of green grass in the north island to hilly steep country full of sheep in the south island , vast beaches, some with_ *Black sand* _some with golden white sand, some covered with interesting_ *Drift wood*, _or round rocks, or small colorful pebbles or shells, and some open with just sand for miles,_ *Like 90 Mile Beach*_, snow for_ *skiing in winter* , _steamy geothermal areas with mud pools and steam , like hells gate in Rotorua,_ *Rototua* _amazing deep underground caves with glow worms,_ *CAVES NZ.*

_We have some of the best soils and climates in the world , so we grow Avocados,_ *Wine Grapes* _in_ *Napier, Hastings* _&_ *Kiwifruit*, _in the bay of plenty, apples and stone fruits..... there is lots of seasonal work picking fruit for those who want it, its not hard for backpackers to find work in horticulture in NZ, huge demand for workers. ....strawberries and many fields of grains and beer hops, these you will see as you travel the different areas and the 2 islands, there are car ferries to get between the 2 islands, or you can fly via regional airports, great fishing salt water and fresh water, fishing charter cruises, great trout fishing or_ *Dolphin and Whale watching**.*

_Lots of native_ *bush and walks*_, lots of volcanoes to climb too like_ *Ngauruhoe* _and Tongariro.

The_ *Emerald Lakes Tongariro* , *....Lake* .

_Ive climbed these mountains many times in Summer and once in winter, recommend summer only haha.

I live in the_ *Bay of Plenty* _in the North Island and its a great place to live, great moderate climate_ of *NEW ZEALAND*
_(everything in bold font is a link to pictures via google images, New Zealand maybe a place to consider visiting after covid19 is done and dusted, hit me up for a beer if your over here)_


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 6, 2020)

Nice write up RangiSTaxi, 

if I ever set my feet onto these grounds I would surely bring some german beer specialties with me.

Have you heard of this famous honey coming from NZ "Manuka"?


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 6, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> Nice write up RangiSTaxi,
> 
> if I ever set my feet onto these grounds I would surely bring some german beer specialties with me.
> 
> Have you heard of this famous honey coming from NZ "Manuka"?


Yes we have heaps of bee keepers in my area producing Manuka leptospermum scoparium honey, many bee keepers in all parts of the country, its a native wild plant here in NZ, once most of NZ was covered in it, but a lot was cut away for Dairy farming 100 years ago to create farm land, but its still the dominant weed plant of estuarys and many deep untouched valleys through out nz and is now highly sort after by bee keepers for the value and health benefits of the honey via , manuka... leptospermum scoparium... most is exported though, its a bit too expensive for the locals of nz to buy. Just like our meat and cheese , all the best NZ meat and cheese is exported to other countries as its too expensive for the locals.. p.s i love german beer and buy it here, often.


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 6, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> its a bit too expensive for the locals of nz to buy.


for me, too. Actually I could afford it occassionaly, but then there are so many stories about fraud...

ever got the chance to drink a black or old type of beer? its more malty & sweet, unlike the polished new way to brew (Export or Pils).
Actually the Englishmen have nice black ale, too - a bit more bitter ones...
Then there's Kölsch...


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 6, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> for me, too. Actually I could afford it occassionaly, but then there are so many stories about fraud...
> 
> ever got the chance to drink a black or old type of beer? its more malty & sweet, unlike the polished new way to brew (Export or Pils).
> Actually the Englishmen have nice black ale, too - a bit more bitter ones...
> Then there's Kölsch...


Cant say I have tried those, I do brew my own beer and wine ocassionally, Im drinking Home made vodka at the moment and its great.

Distilling home made spirits here in NZ is legal and my vodka comes out of the still at 92 %

Great quality, clean pure flavor.
I dilute it down to 42% ofcourse, here in NZ we have flavours we can add to the vodka to turn it into whiskey or rum or make liqueurs etc

Its very cheap to make, just ferment 6 kg- 8 of sugar with a packet of yeast in 25 litres of water and distil it, and I can make 6 plus litres of great tasting spirits @ 42% for the cost of 6-7kgs of sugar, in under 10 days..

Just add the flavoring to the vodka and you have home made whiskey for about $10 NZD a bottle $6 USD





Copperhead Stills


Handmade in New Zealand, moonshine stills with copper condensers & stainless steel boilers. Ideal for both the homebrew hobbyist and the traditionalist.



copperheadstill.co.nz





My Reflux still

https://copperheadstill.co.nz/product/copperhead-reflux-still-copperhead-reflux-still/


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 6, 2020)

how often do you need to run it through to get it that high? I never could drink liquor (liquor or stronger) and enjoy it - just too bitter... 

by chance you have Japanese Hops over there?


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 6, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> how often do you need to run it through to get it that high? I never could drink liquor (liquor or stronger) and enjoy it - just too bitter...
> 
> by chance you have Japanese Hops over there?


just distill once , one run to get 92% in this re-flux still 25 liters is distilled to 92% in about a hour or 2, it takes 45 minutes to a hour for the still to heat up the 25 liters of wash, then it doesn't take long, the quality is so high far better than shop purchased vodka, you don't need to use carbon to filter for taste in this still, its very pure taste no other flavors, you can dilute it as much as you like, you could dilute to 10% and add 50% mixer lemonade/coca cola etc and would only be as strong as a beer. The choice is yours how strong you want the alcohol. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure we could get those jap hops here, there is basically nothing you cant get in NZ, we can always order from overseas if we cant find something locally.
The reason you want alcohol to come out the still as high as possible, for vodka anyway, is its purer and leaves the fermentation flavors behind, lower the alcohol more bad flavors you can get, 92% is miles better than 82 %, afterward you dilute 92% vodka with water to desired strength.
after fermentation with https://stillspirits.com/products/fast-turbo-yeast?_pos=3&_sid=f9f1a8f73&_ss=r You can use https://stillspirits.com/products/turbo-clear to remove the Yeast from the 25 liter yeast/sugar wash, this improves flavor, you do this before distilling.you want a clear wash free of yeast before distilling for best clean flavor, but at 92% even cloudy wash with yeast comes out perfectly fine without using turbo clear, but its best to use turbo clear.


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 6, 2020)

yeah the TM of Vodka is its always clean & pure. Although the other liquor "brands" whiskey etc basically use the "bad taste" or fermentation as a base to distinguish their product.

this Jap. Hops seems to be more "close" related to Cannabis - Ive been hearing rumours one can graft both together...
this guy claims to have created some new Can varieties with it






KalySeeds - KalySeeds







kalyseeds.eu


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 6, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> yeah the TM of Vodka is its always clean & pure. Although the other liquor "brands" whiskey etc basically use the "bad taste" or fermentation as a base to distinguish their product.
> 
> this Jap. Hops seems to be more "close" related to Cannabis - Ive been hearing rumours one can graft both together...
> this guy claims to have created some new Can varieties with it
> ...


Very True making whiskey the traditional way you use a Pot still not a Reflux still, and it is a big process and takes years, and after all the work your whiskey could be crap anyway, I just cheat and just use whiskey / Rum flavoring in nice clean vodka instead. Much Less hangovers with vodka and flavorings too.

Oh Ive heard that rumour, its been around since i was 15 , and I did try that 15-20 years ago, Grafting cannabis plant to hops, I tried and couldn't make it work,zero success but my skills and knowledge were much lower then however, now I just think the whole thing was just a age old wisetale and should it work I dont see the point now anyway, Id say its impossible.

p.s that canabis variety in your link is a ducksfoot cannabis strain (been around forever). nothing new and nothing to do with grafting cannabis to hops.
cannabis duckfoot strain cant read german but looks bullshit.









Frisian Duck Feminised Seeds


Easy and robust strain in disguise




www.seedsman.com













Duck Auto Feminised Seeds


Stealthy strain for outdoors/greenhouses.




www.seedsman.com





The Rootstock, can not affect the grafted Scion genetics , so its photo fabrication bullshit, its a duck foot strain and they have altered a few pics to try fool you, its fake.

Hope that clears that up for you.


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 6, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> Very True making whiskey the traditional way you use a Pot still not a Reflux still, and it is a big process and takes years, and after all the work your whiskey could be crap anyway, I just cheat and just use whiskey / Rum flavoring in nice clean vodka instead. Much Less hangovers with vodka and flavorings too.


LMAO I like your honesty here... and true, wodka gives less headache, guess wine or champus is worst... you see, there are many different types of alcohol, methanol propanol butanol and these may cause problems...



RangiSTaxi said:


> Oh Ive heard that rumour, its been around since i was 15 , and I did try that 15-20 years ago, Grafting cannabis plant to hops, I tried and couldn't make it work,zero success but my skills and knowledge were much lower then however, now I just think the whole thing was just a age old wisetale and should it work I dont see the point now anyway.


Kaly claims it can only be done with Japanese Hops. The advantage could be, to grow Cannabis grafted at the tops of Hops, disguised in a Hops field.
Hops gets so tall you may not notice it if its somewhere in the middle.
But more like something to play around with it J4F


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 6, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> Kaly claims it can only be done with Japanese Hops.


'_A lie can travel_ half way around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes.'


Kassiopeija said:


> The advantage could be, to grow Cannabis grafted at the tops of Hops, disguised in a Hops field.
> Hops gets so tall you may not notice it if its somewhere in the middle.



Yeah , lol , reminds me of Jack and the Bean stalk
Maybe if asked nicely the giant will pick and trim the weed for you too



Kassiopeija said:


> The advantage could be, to grow Cannabis grafted at the tops of Hops, disguised in a Hops field.
> Hops gets so tall you may not notice it if its somewhere in the middle.


lol Must admit that thought has probably crossed many minds over the decades...


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 6, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> _A lie can travel_ half way around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes.'


its the Cannabis biz - too much € involved and that attracts all sorts of shady "business" ppl. 
I think Kalys seeds are either derived from DucksFoot, ABC or just mutated Hops (observe the white loss of color at some leaves...?) that loss of chlorophyl can happen to many plants...



RangiSTaxi said:


> lol Must admit that thought has probably crossed many minds over the decades...


indeed and outdoor grows are his target client for he breeds to develop Cannabis "deceiver/disguiser" plants (which just dont look like ordinairy MJ so they should be safer for "guerilla" grows...)

NZ must have alot of free wilderness, wouldnt that be reasonably for you to do an Auto outdoor run each summer?


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 6, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> its the Cannabis biz - too much € involved and that attracts all sorts of shady "business" ppl.
> I think Kalys seeds are either derived from DucksFoot, ABC or just mutated Hops (observe the white loss of color at some leaves...?) that loss of chlorophyl can happen to many plants...
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah Nah, Outdoors is difficult anywhere. been there done that, Ill leave it to the youngsters with more energy.
I could write a list why, but this forum doesn't have enough pages and i dont want to crash the server.

Besides Im already flat out Managing 16 Hectares of Horticultural crop already, I wouldn't have the time and I dont have the need..


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 6, 2020)

Ive been doing tree-hide @ 1200m altitude some years ago, far up at a mountain top plateau the plants had an immensely shining sun... some Indicas developed 13-fingered leaves thereof...

But man, that was work. Had to carry water the last 200m uphill because there was no road...

But usually, when just planted in good soil, its most easy outdoors. and cheap.

what are you paying per kWh down over there? here its 0.32€/kWh....[!]


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 8, 2020)

The attached .pdf holds some valuable info about the differences of UV/blue light versus red-light.

It especially states what's been hinted before - that UV/blue is responsible for the "day time measurement" (cryptochromes & zeitlupes)


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 10, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> The attached .pdf holds some valuable info about the differences of UV/blue light versus red-light.
> 
> It especially states what's been hinted before - that UV/blue is responsible for the "day time measurement" (cryptochromes & zeitlupes)


Great post mate, great conclusion to explain how and why the Torr method works flowering with 24 hours of light with photoperiod seeds using 12 hours of blue light and 12 hours of red light.
blue light is responsible for the "day time measurement , the lack of blue light hours triggers flowering even when there is 12 hours of red light in what would otherwise would be the dark period.
So 24 hours of light with photoperiod seeds can be used to flower photoperiod seeds.
Cheers for the great research.


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 10, 2020)

From 4 plants above pic ...To This below, 3 plants left after Hermie plant ,Destroyed, and removed

The Plants survived the bend down and heavy defoliate after the Hermie plant was removed and destroyed (top left corner) and the remaining 3 plants bent down to fill in the space of the removed plant.

6 days later (pic below) Certainly a big set back however for the Geleto #33 from Advanced seeds, but I expect them to pick up in the next week.
I also found them to be bone dry during the last 6 days, this hasn't helped the recovery, my bad.


I have also harvested the last Torr Method tent ill do, and replaced them with the Cookies Gelato fem seeds from royal queen seeds, germinated seedlings a week ago, they were transplanted (too soon) with a poor unestablished root system, we will see how they go, i expect a slow start..








Cookies Gelato strain Cannabis Seeds - Royal Queen Seeds


Cookies Gelato blends the best traits from Girl Scout Cookies and Gelato. She contains 28% THC and mouth-watering terpenes. Get the seeds here!




www.royalqueenseeds.com





Transplant into


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 10, 2020)

RangiSTaxi said:


> Great post mate, great conclusion to explain how and why the Torr method works flowering with 24 hours of light with photoperiod seeds using 12 hours of blue light and 12 hours of red light.
> blue light is responsible for the "day time measurement , the lack of blue light hours triggers flowering even when there is 12 hours of red light in what would otherwise would be the dark period.
> So 24 hours of light with photoperiod seeds can be used to flower photoperiod seeds.
> Cheers for the great research.


If TORR works with HPS, too, it could also mean the HPS bulb wouldnt face that much lightloss from bulb usage degradation because the HPS could be left on for 24/7...

while simulating the day using a second bulb (MH, CMH or else...)

you see, a HPS is actually a better photon converter than the cheap China crap LEDs, but unfortunately its efficiency degrades everytime one starts the lamp.

So TORR could be helpfull but one would need a second hardware (which is cheap -
HIDs)

edit:
*however, there is a potential danger if a S-HPS is used unbeknowingly instead of a HPS - the added blue spectrum would destroy the nightphase likely causing reveg... [!!!] *


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## Kassiopeija (Jun 10, 2020)

Not so sure, really not so sure about this because I already tried with HPS - and it does work. But it's not as clear-cut as should and this is mostly due to the plasticity of living organisms - I'll try to explain in detail:

What is needed is a distinct separation of the "day" & "night" phase - this is usually reached by simply shutting the lights out completely. In this case it doesn't matter much whatever light you use because a plant can easily distinct between (light vs no light).

However, this is even false for long-daytime-flowering-plants (=sativa-genes) because the relative lightstrength is "weighed" also against a plants physiology esp. age & height.
Or to be blunt: If a big sativa doesn't receive enough lightstrength it'll flower because it "thinks" autumn/monsoon has arrived - even if said light is on for 18 or 20 hours. There are multiple examples present in various hemp forums which I could cite as proof (happened half a year ago to a guy growing a "Santa Marta Colombian Gold" sativa strain...)

Secondly, IF there is light during the nightphase then the day HAS TO BE stronger in luminosity - but I'm not so sure by what factor. Your quantum boards are obviously much stronger than the 660+730nm combo. Especially since you leave them on during the day, too - isn't it?

[snipped]

Let's swiftly examine the HPS & S-HPS spectra:

HPS:

S-HPS:

The amount of UV & blue is much bigger in the S-HPS while the HPS has green instead, and no UV at all. And I guess the tiny amount of blue in HPS isn't much noticed (or superceded by the other wavelengths....) esp. since one needs to keep a HPS fairly away from a plants tops. So the distance alone is going to deprecitate that unwanted blue... (still, it may pose a risk !!)


There are also other things to consider, esp. that some strains need different lightcycles - and I have to be especially thankful to @Dr. Who who explained some of this in great detail to me:
1) Indica dominant strains may need a shorter daytimephase than the nighttimephase so 11/13 or 10/14 should be the target
(just a sidenote, actually I found that the transition from veg to flower happens much swifter if one goes 10/14 right away.)

2) Sativa rather need a continous decrease in the daytimephase, 18/6 --> 16/8 --> 14/10 --> 12/12 --> 10/14 (and so on... most likely taking an hour or half an hour off each week - depending on the estimated total flowering time....)

(on a sidenote, this behaviour is sort of also integrated into the Gas Lantern Routine as well, "Flower Cycle"



Here's an example of one of the self-fashioned lamp I use for a combo MH/HPS dual combo:

(costs were around 250€ for 2 sets sporting both Reflectors & Digital Ballasts, plus two new bulbs.)
Lesser powered bulbs can be bought for even less and it's godsend these digital ballasts can drive different strengths, so one can save some electricity duriing the early phase of plant develoment)

(still needs to work a bit on it - reflection at the sides to decrease lightloss....)

***

Then going from here there are many possible light-scenarios that could all work, e.g.:

Indika or short-daytime plants: (tested and works)
HPS - 24/0 (always on)
MH - 16/8 (veg) and 10/14 (flower)
(keep in mind we already give the plant more light due to the nightphase to hit up the Daily Light Integral; DLI)

Sativa or long-daytime plants: (this is *untested*)
HPS - 24/0
MH - 20/4 then gradual weekly reduction - starting well before flower (mid veg)
(there are strong genetic factors at large indicating in order for this to work the growroom would need to be _*cooler *_in ambient temps than during the veg phase...! This could for example be artifically created by heating up the tent during the nightphase in veg with *IR heat lamps* - and their shutdown would indicate the beginning of flowering as then the nightphase would be relatively cooler...)

***

Also tested & found working:
HPS - 20/4
MH - 12/12
(I did veg plants with this and the whole tent went into flower, small 3 week young plants! Multiple strains different strains)
This is actually a pattern which I would recommend to use for most *hybrid* 50/50 strains...

***

Another thing to consider is maybe to still give the plants, at least, a short *true* nightphase in flower, like the last pattern illustrates; either ending with a 730nm End-Of-Day treatment or leaving the 730 monos on but shutting the 660nm off.
With EOD the plant should get the same *respiratory* phase than a 18/6 veg phase like when not ending with FR. (4h true respiration)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photorespiration

I've ran the last pattern in different fashions:
1. Starting the day with MH, after 6h powering the HPS, after yet another 6h cancel the MH, after again another 6h terminating the HPS as well, then 6h of total darkness. (for a total of 12h MH + 12h HPS light usage)
OR:
2. Starting the day with HPS (dawn-simulation), after 3h powering the MH (full daylight), after 12h terminating the MH, after 3h also terminating the
"dusk-simulating" HPS, then 6h true night. (for a total of 12h MH _but 18h_ HPS light usage)

Both work, but the last pattern is more true to what's happening in nature, also delivering more photons. I consider the 2. a bit more gentle on plant physiology because the heat emmisions from the HPS may warm up a plant and prepare for the rough bright blue/UV.


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 13, 2020)

Moving my general grow non Torr thread here.. and will be posting "just"in this new thread from now on...





RangiTaxi Grows and random chat , random bits and pieces


all conversation welcome, just a general chat thread and I may add a few pics of my grows as we go along. If you have any questions about your grow feel free to ask here and Ill try help, if I can, or others may have solutions. moving on from posting in the Torr Method Thread ...



www.rollitup.org













RangiTaxi Grows and random chat , random bits and pieces


all conversation welcome, just a general chat thread and I may add a few pics of my grows as we go along. If you have any questions about your grow feel free to ask here and Ill try help, if I can, or others may have solutions. moving on from posting in the Torr Method Thread ...



www.rollitup.org






from this


p.s those plant recovered fast after the bend down and heavy defoliate. after hermie removed (1 of 4 plants removed) and destroyed, bend down remaining 3 plants to fill in light space where hermie plant was removed, to make use of all available light


The Recovery from hard defoliate and bend down didn't take long  Geleto #33 from advanced seeds.






RangiTaxi Grows and random chat , random bits and pieces


all conversation welcome, just a general chat thread and I may add a few pics of my grows as we go along. If you have any questions about your grow feel free to ask here and Ill try help, if I can, or others may have solutions. moving on from posting in the Torr Method Thread ...



www.rollitup.org


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## RangiSTaxi (Jun 13, 2020)

Come Visit the New Thread





RangiTaxi Grows and random chat , random bits and pieces


all conversation welcome, just a general chat thread and I may add a few pics of my grows as we go along. If you have any questions about your grow feel free to ask here and Ill try help, if I can, or others may have solutions. moving on from posting in the Torr Method Thread ...



www.rollitup.org


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