# 20,000 Watt Medical Grow Op Construction



## collective gardener (Feb 7, 2011)

I've been promising to share this experience...so here goes:

Myself and some other patients decided to start our own collective. I had been retired from growing for several years, but a visit to a friends grow room sparked the fire back in me. I had grown for about 20 years, indoor and out, hydro and organic, commercial and personal. The only way I was going to do this was the right way...both legal and technical.

I pitched the idea to a friend and patient who agreed to loan the money to the collective in order to get us on our feet. After a month or so of getting my head back in the game I came up with a plan and a budget of $60,000. He said yes, and away we went.

The first step was a visit to a cannabis attorney. After a 2 hour consultation we decided that a "Collective Association" was the right vehicle for what we wanted. The cost to form said association was $3,000. We also decided not to grow more than 99 plants. There were 2 reasons for this: I have a doctor's recommendation for up to 99 plants, meaning that even without using the collective's total plant numbers, I was still a legal grow. The other reason is that under 99 plants keeps us safe from the Fed's 5 year prison sentence.

Once the legal was complete, we found a location. It is a warehouse in an industrial park. The unit measures 24 feet wide x 65 feet deep. It has a small office in front and the all necessary bathroom. We decided to utilize the back half for our grow op...30 feet x 24 feet. The front half and office is used by my business.

I was able to utilize the 2 side walls and the back wall. All that needed to be built was the front wall and the partition between the veg and flower rooms. We made the ceilings 10 feet and sheeted the entire room with 1/2" OSB (similar to plywood). I had built enough rooms to know that attaching all that cool growing stuff to drywall SUCKS. Once the sheeting was done, we busted out the brand new airless and shot 2 coats of primer and 2 coats of white paint on everything.




The electrical in the shop is a growers dream: A 400 amp panel. We pulled 4 - 20 amp 120v circuits and spotted outlets 4 feet and 8 feet high all the way around both rooms. We then put in 3 sub panels for the lights, and a future 50 amp 220v circuit for the split air conditioner coming later. Rather than trying to place outlets in specific places, we just put a bunch in all over the place.

It was just about this time that I got a phone call: My buddy had 30 - 12" Bubba Kush plants that he didn't have room for and wanted to donate them to the cause. The only condition was we had to take them in 20 minutes. Now, my original plan was to complete the room 100%, including atmoshpere testing prior to bringing in the first clones. That plan just got shot to shit. I grabbed a couple light settups I had from a previous grow, talked him into just bringing 20 until the next day, and we were growing.


It was great to have this head start, but completing the room was going to be much harder now. Oh well...we were GROWING!

Over the next few days we transplanted, did some bending, and worked on the venting. For now, we're holding off on the CO2. I want to have a ductless split AC before installing CO2, and that won't happen for a few months. There are 2 1500cfm exhaust fans installed in the roof. We use one to exhaust the rooms and the other to route the light cooling ducts into.



For lighting we currently have 2 - 1000 watt Hortilux Daylight Blues in Adjustawing reflectors lighting up a 4 x 8 table in the veg room. We have 2 - 1000 watt Sun Pulse Pulse Start 6.4k Metal Halides in Block Buster reflectors lighting up plants on the floor in the veg room. The flower room has 2 - 1000 watt Digilux HPS in C.A.P reflectors. For clones we have a single 4' T-8 4100k flouro. There is also a 4' T-5 with 4 bulbs for hardening off clones prior to goin g onto the 1000 watt table. We have just been adding lights as the plants need them while we complete the rest of the room.

This will be the main vegatation area.


The table will contain small plants prior to going into large containers


Looking into the flower room from the veg room


11 of the Bubba Kush in the flower room


Bubba after to bending and super cropping


The flower room will have 12 - 1000 watt lights when complete.


Once completed, the flower room will have 12 lights and the veg room will have 8. I have skipped many details, but will be happy to answer questions. I'll keep posting as we progress.


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## BiteSizeFreak (Feb 7, 2011)

You have a doctors note for 99 plants?! Where the hell do you live cause I'm moving tomorrow?!

Subscribed.


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## cmt1984 (Feb 7, 2011)

BiteSizeFreak said:


> You have a doctors note for 99 plants?! Where the hell do you live cause I'm moving tomorrow?!
> 
> Subscribed.


 its a collective...there are multiple patients growing there...


great looking setup you guys have there. sub'd. +rep


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## BiteSizeFreak (Feb 7, 2011)

cmt1984 said:


> its a collective...there are multiple patients growing there...
> 
> 
> great looking setup you guys have there. sub'd. +rep


I get that but he said: " I have a doctor's recommendation for up to 99 plants" I took the I to mean I as in Me.


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## collective gardener (Feb 7, 2011)

From Cali....Doc's rec is for 99 plants and 4lbs


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## BiteSizeFreak (Feb 7, 2011)

Ahh crap! I was afraid you'd say that... Oh well, it'll still be great to watch, I'm sure I'll learn a lot!


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## collective gardener (Feb 7, 2011)

LOL....why oh crap???

Here's my rec

We could grow over 1000 with all of our members, but we're trying to play it real safe. Problem is, I'm going to have to learn to grow some serious trees. I've always grown SOG, and have little experience with the big girls. We'll be trying several methods. Including: topping and bending to get a plant about 3 feet around and 2-3 feet tall, and growing 5-6 foot plants and using bare bulb side lighting. Over the next few months we'll all find out together whats works best first hand! My goal is 1.5lbs/light. That's a tall order with Bubba and the other high end strains we'll be growing.


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## BiteSizeFreak (Feb 7, 2011)

If I owned hell and Cali, I'd rent out Cali and live in hell. lol  Seriously though, can't stand the place. Aside from the pretty girls and good weed laws I find nothing else redeeming about the state. I usually don't bring it up for obvious reasons lol

Anyway, I'll just kinda piece out here for a little while or this whole thread will get jacked by people mad that I don't like Cali 

PS: Oh yeah, good wine too!


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## collective gardener (Feb 8, 2011)

Not much to post today...no new fancy gear pics. I did get 8 clones from Clonville on Ventura in the Valley. Honestly, the clones look pretty bad. I'm guessing 50% wll survive even though they are rooted. I usually don't buy clones from un-tested plants, buy heard good things about this place and need a sativa or 2 to round out the stable.

Put in a 10,000btu portable air conditioner into the veg room (300 bucks). It dropped the temp from 82 to 77 in about 10 minutes. 30 minutes it was at 75. The veg room is the hottest due to the 2 Adjust-a-Wings not being air cooled. Furthermore, the air flow goes into the veg room, to the flower room, and out the exhaust. 

Treated the plants with Spectracide today to prevent any fungus/mold problems. My buddy has a grow op right down the street and has had problems even with humidity under 55%. There are many working fields in the area that may be causing the problem. Our humidity has been between 40% and 60% without much effort. We use a portable evaporative cooler to keep the humidity up during the dry winds that pass through our area, and a small humidifier to do the same at night.

We're totally sold on Cutting Edge nutrients. They were recomended to us from another large med grow op. We just use the Micro/Grow/Bloom and add a little Plant Amp for some extra Mag and Sulfur. We add enough nutes to bring our RO water to 1000ppm and the PH ends up at 5.5 every time. Good Stuff! Plants look great and have roots showing at the drain holes of the 5 gallon pots they were put into just a week ago. After 20 years in this game I still see no reason to go out and buy a dozen bottles of "Bud Pump 2000" and "Super Secret Sammie Sauce" and whatever else the nute companies are pimping these days. You just end up pouring so many different things onto the plants you have no idea what is working, what is hurting, and what isn't doing anything. For my money, General Hydro Flora and Cutting Edge are the best products on the market.

I'll have some pics tomorrow. We'll be setting up and area in the bloom room to try out some hanging bare bulbs on tall plants.


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## RawBudzski (Feb 8, 2011)

GOD DAMN YOU. Im in So CAL and its the Shyt. Best Bud on the Planet... Your thread had been Officially Jacked By Cali.


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## djfloms (Feb 9, 2011)

i think..... im at a loss for words... wow... just wow im subd


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## RawBudzski (Feb 9, 2011)

your room seems kinda small for 12x 1000w. but hey more is merrier aye?


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## collective gardener (Feb 9, 2011)

RawBudzski said:


> your room seems kinda small for 12x 1000w. but hey more is merrier aye?


The flower room is 16' x 24'. We'll be covering an 8' x 24' strip with the 12 lights. That's 62.5 watts/sq ft. Hell, if I can keep it all cool, I may add another 5 or 6 free hanging bulbs in an unlit corner for some serious tree growing!

Thanks for all the comments. It helps make the work fun!

Be safe, guys


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## stabone (Feb 9, 2011)

I have to see this one play out for sure. good luck and sub'd my friend.


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## RawBudzski (Feb 9, 2011)

nvm then. Sounds great  8x24. I cant wait to see this. my perpetual is just taking off.. 12/12 switch today. but not nearly on your scale.


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## collective gardener (Feb 9, 2011)

RawBudzski said:


> nvm then. Sounds great  8x24. I cant wait to see this. my perpetual is just taking off.. 12/12 switch today. but not nearly on your scale.


Fantastic...Perpetual is the only way IMHO.


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## dapio (Feb 9, 2011)

damn man a warehouse at your disposal can only imagine what it would be like to take a walk in your shoes I hope I achieve resources like this and fast! subbed and +rep


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## treemansbuds (Feb 9, 2011)

BiteSizeFreak said:


> If I owned hell and Cali, I'd rent out Cali and live in hell. lol  Seriously though, can't stand the place. Aside from the pretty girls and good weed laws I find nothing else redeeming about the state. I usually don't bring it up for obvious reasons lol
> 
> Anyway, I'll just kinda piece out here for a little while or this whole thread will get jacked by people mad that I don't like Cali
> 
> PS: Oh yeah, good wine too!


Best comment I've heard on this forum, thanks FREAK!...........STAY AWAY, we don't want you here.....


Amazing plans my friend, looks like your going to be busy for awhile. I know your prescription is for 99 plants and 4lbs, don't you think you'll be WAY over the dried product numbers just using your prescription?
I'm sure your lawyer has you going in the right direction, but I hear of growers under/or at the limit of their prescription plant numbers, but WAY over the dried product numbers. I'm guessing that's where the Co-op comes in.
Good Luck, I'll be watching...
TMB-


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## Gopedxr (Feb 9, 2011)

Were can I get my state card? I have my rec and all but i am in socal as well and would like my state card. Or do I become apart of the collective?


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## BiteSizeFreak (Feb 9, 2011)

treemansbuds said:


> Best comment I've heard on this forum, thanks FREAK!...........STAY AWAY, we don't want you here.....
> ...


With people like you, who'd want to live there? And in case you're not smart enough to figure it out, that's what we call a rhetorical question. Now shut up and watch the grow.


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## CypressRyan (Feb 9, 2011)

I trimmed in a 30k op.. to much overhead for my taste. Good work and good luck, I hope you have a tight group of people to share the workload.


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## collective gardener (Feb 10, 2011)

treemansbuds said:


> Best comment I've heard on this forum, thanks FREAK!...........STAY AWAY, we don't want you here.....
> 
> 
> Amazing plans my friend, looks like your going to be busy for awhile. I know your prescription is for 99 plants and 4lbs, don't you think you'll be WAY over the dried product numbers just using your prescription?
> ...


Yeah, the collective will cover the product overage...if there is any. We're shooting for a 2 week cycle perpetual, which should keep the product on hand under 4lbs. As long as we can get everything dried, cured, and distributed to our members inside of 2 weeks, we should be ok. We'll be building a temperature, humidity, and air flow controlled drying box to help with keeping the dry and cure consistant.


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## collective gardener (Feb 10, 2011)

Gopedxr said:


> Were can I get my state card? I have my rec and all but i am in socal as well and would like my state card. Or do I become apart of the collective?


I'm not sure what you mean by "state card". The county health department offers a card that assures the validity of your rec in the event of a law enforcement encounter. Starting a collective has loads of advantages but costs a few bucks to do it right. Once you have the collective, there is also a significant amount of record keeping and various paper work necessary to remain legal. It is _not_ a "set up and forget" proposition.


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## collective gardener (Feb 10, 2011)

CypressRyan said:


> I trimmed in a 30k op.. to much overhead for my taste. Good work and good luck, I hope you have a tight group of people to share the workload.


I have one full time paid helper that logs about 60 hrs per week. Trimming is still going to suck. Especially since our members insist on perfect hand trimmed product. I've used or personally seen used every trimmer out there. Some are decent, but all pale compared to an experienced hand trim.

There is some overhead costs. Fortunately, state law allows us to be reimbursed by our members for all overhead and labor costs necessary to produce their medication. That is actually the legal way to establish a price. "Suggested donation" is BS. According to State law, the money paid by a patient is a "reimbursement". Not to get off topic, but this is why any collective giving breaks for quantity or charging a premium for a small purchase is technically breaking the law. The production and distribution cost is what it is...whether you're buying a gram or an ounce.


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## collective gardener (Feb 10, 2011)

A quick update:

We transplanted 6 plants that were in 5 gallon pots into 10 gallon pots. Theye were only in the 5's for 9 days yet the roots were packed in pretty tight. We're using a coco/perilite mix.



We're running a couple different kinds of halides to see what works best for us. The Hortilux Daylight Blue gives the tightest node spacing. The Sun Pulse Pulse Start 6.4k is a little brighter and penetrates deeper into the canopy for a little "thicker" growth. I'm thinking of using the Daylights early on, when the plant is small to really pack the nodes in, then moving them under the Pulse Starts for the rest of the veg time.

I'm using Digilux HPS. They're brighter than the Hortilux HPS and were designed for digital ballasts. I have 6 Hortilux's from a previous grow and may use them for our bare hanging bulb experiment.

None of these bulbs are cheap. In fact, they're pretty much the most expensive bulbs out there. However, if they give us just 5% better growth than a cheap bulb, theye pay for themselves many times over. I just can't see skimping on lamps in an indoor grow.



We put in a little 10,000 btu AC unit a few days ago. The exhaust ducting is plumbed into our main exhaust lighting manifold. This provides strong negative pressure where thr AC's exhasut hose ties into our 20' ducting run. I've found that the better these units can "breath" the better they work by far.


The humidity has been quite low here. The new air conditioner doesn't help either. Here's a pick of our evaporative cooler and our little humidifier. When alls said and done, we'll need several of each.




Several 6" vent holes are provided to facilitate air flow from the veg room to the flower room. The 36" attached ducting acts as a light block between the rooms.


That's it for today. We'll put up a couple lights tomorrow to try and keep up with the explosive growth we're experiencing. Maybe we'll knock off early and try out the collective's new hash glass. Yipeeeee.


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## rzza (Feb 10, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Yeah, the collective will cover the product overage...if there is any. We're shooting for a 2 week cycle perpetual, which should keep the product on hand under 4lbs. As long as we can get everything dried, cured, and distributed to our members inside of 2 weeks, we should be ok. We'll be building a temperature, humidity, and air flow controlled drying box to help with keeping the dry and cure consistant.


in michigan, all we hear is cali weed is ALWAYS cured for at LEAST a few months ...blah blah 

either its all bs or you are going to have subpar meds for your area.


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## Luger187 (Feb 10, 2011)

rzza said:


> in michigan, all we hear is cali weed is ALWAYS cured for at LEAST a few months ...blah blah
> 
> either its all bs or you are going to have subpar meds for your area.


nah. ive seen plenty of nugs at clinics that arent cured yet. but i would deff cure those nugs OP


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## BiteSizeFreak (Feb 10, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Please. cease fire


I did a long time ago, not my fault people keep stirring the pot...


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## collective gardener (Feb 10, 2011)

rzza said:


> in michigan, all we hear is cali weed is ALWAYS cured for at LEAST a few months ...blah blah
> 
> either its all bs or you are going to have subpar meds for your area.


I can assure you that _very_ few growers are curing their meds for a few months. In my experience, how you treat the buds in the first week makes more difference than just a bunch of cure time. I like to dry for a week, and "cure" for a week...meaning I'm just getting the buds to the perfect even moisture content. Would they be better after a month long cure? Probably. But the improvement is very small and makes zero difference our members and the collectives we sell our overages to. I guess it comes 
down to dimminishing returns. The fact is, keeping 30 or 40 lbs of curing buds laying around isn't even an option for us.

I do know some pretty heavy Nor Cal growers that cure their buds for several months. While I'm sure it improves the quality some, the main reason these particular people do it is to let the market recover from the post harvest price slump. 

Shit...I'm getting way off topic. Anyways, thanks for the concern, we feel good about our drying techniques.


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## collective gardener (Feb 10, 2011)

Another day in the room down. We're still having really dry weather and our humidity is a little low. I'm hesitant to add too much humidifying equipment since these dry spells are few and far between. The plants water needs are going up: about a gallon/plant/day. Currently I have daisy chained trash cans to store the RO water. This will only due for so long. Our water maker can produce about 200 gpd. We're looking into a couple 250 gallon polly tanks. I have a feeling that in a few weeks that water maker will be running 24/7.



Hate to sound like a broken record, but we are just so pleased with the Cutting Edge nutes and Sunshine #4 with extra perilite. Our original plan was to experiment a little, but that has changed. Growth has been explosive and there's not a single sign of any nute problems. As long as this continues through the bloom cycle, we will be sticking with these nutes and soiless mix.


We put up 2 more Block Buster reflectors today in the veg room. We'll need the extra lighted area for when we transplant tomorrow and re-bend the plants down and out. We're trying to keep the plants at the same height and just keep training them to a larger diameter.


Here's one of Helper D sitting in the canopy watering. These plants have been flowering for about 5 days and are just starting the stretch. How they end up after the stretch is done will help tell us how to train the next crop going into the bloom room.


I didn't take cuttings soon enough and we're going to have a gap in th perpetual cycle. I'm calling in some favors from some other grow ops in the hope of scoring a dozen or so 8" to 10" plants. If I can't get these, we'll be growing some of our existing plants very large before blooming them, in the hopes of keeping the rooms full. This may get interesting.

We ordered 4 more 1000 watt and 4 - 600 watt ballasts today. Just 8 more 1000's and a few more 600's and the big spending will be over. Oh...and a couple grand worth of bulbs, too. Shit, this is getting expensive.


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## collective gardener (Feb 11, 2011)

Spent the day tracking down some more plants for the stable. Came across some 8" plants from this purple beast. I grew this one last winter and love the color. Took some samples to some members and got positive responses. So, it looks like tomorrow we'll have a dozen of these ladies cooking under the halides.


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## Sr. Verde (Feb 12, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Spent the day tracking down some more plants for the stable. Came across some 8" plants from this purple beast. I grew this one last winter and love the color. Took some samples to some members and got positive responses. So, it looks like tomorrow we'll have a dozen of these ladies cooking under the halides.
> View attachment 1436435
> 
> View attachment 1436442



thats dark dark purple man what strain is that


looking great by the way


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## collective gardener (Feb 12, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> thats dark dark purple man what strain is that
> 
> 
> looking great by the way


Verde, I wish I knew! It's a strain a commercial grower friend grows to offer something in a purple. That plant was started indoors and flowered outside in winter. We harvested it around thankgiving. While the cold night added to the darkness of the color, it's still pretty dark when flowered inside. Several of the best strains I've ever sampled have no names and a questionable heritage. If people want to take a guess as to the strain, I'd love to hear it.


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## ChucklesD (Feb 12, 2011)

It kinda looks like Nirvana's Blackberry


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## RawBudzski (Feb 12, 2011)

Beautiful. Cant wait to see things in full swing.


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## Sr. Verde (Feb 13, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Verde, I wish I knew! It's a strain a commercial grower friend grows to offer something in a purple. That plant was started indoors and flowered outside in winter. We harvested it around thankgiving. While the cold night added to the darkness of the color, it's still pretty dark when flowered inside. Several of the best strains I've ever sampled have no names and a questionable heritage. If people want to take a guess as to the strain, I'd love to hear it.


first +rep for the thread, loving the setup and all out or nothing! thats how I try to roll too..


bite the bullet at first, then ride the wave later 


I feel you about the best strain is often nameless! I'm just curious because it's such a lush purple!


What are YOU reffering to it as 

I love names, such a key to it's effects


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## collective gardener (Feb 13, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> first +rep for the thread, loving the setup and all out or nothing! thats how I try to roll too..
> 
> 
> bite the bullet at first, then ride the wave later
> ...


Thanks for the kind words on the settup. It's still a little mix-mash. Once we get all the gear in, we'll get it tightened up. It's kind of a pain to complete the settup with live plants in the room. The original plan called for just having some clones at this juncture.

We've always just called the purple "The Purple". It's indica dominant, with a pretty heavy high. It smells and tastes pretty good grown in hydro, but that plant I grew outside was 100% live soil organic, and the odor was something to behold! Dank beyond dank.


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## samljer (Feb 13, 2011)

You blanked out everything but the DrEidelman at the bottom.
80% of the information you whited out i was able to pull up, better get that JPG fixed.


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## collective gardener (Feb 13, 2011)

samljer said:


> You blanked out everything but the DrEidelman at the bottom.
> 80% of the information you whited out i was able to pull up, better get that JPG fixed.


Thanks for the heads up. I'm fine with his web site being visable. He's a good doctor who is truly interested in helping people with a vast array of alternative medicine. I also like to support him because he was one of the first docs to write marijuana recs. He was doing it when all these other quacks were pissing themselves. Now, they're all on the band wagon.


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## collective gardener (Feb 13, 2011)

Got the new plants today. I had asked my buddy for a dozen, but he delivered 25. They came in 4" rockwool blocks and looked great. These plants put us over our self imposed 99 plant limit, so I had to toss 5 un-rooted clones. Oh well...I'll take 25 small plants in high gear anytime. We spent the day getting soil, putting up another light, and transplanting. About 13 went into 5 gallon pots (we ran out), and the rest went into 1 gallon pots till tomorrow. It's great to have all our girls in the room. Now it's grow time. I'll put a couple in DWC buckets just to compare growth rates.
 
New plants have arrived


New plants transplanted


Close up of new plants. We call them "Lavander", but they're not. It's an unamed, clone only So Cal plant that my group has had for a few years. It is truly top shelf stuff, but takes some work to grow. Lots of sativa, and a wild grower.


Four 1000 watt lights pretty much maxed out. It's time to move a few into the bloom room.


Flowering plants will be getting some company and 5 more lights this week.

The 10 gallon plants are getting to heavy to easily move. We'll place carts on wheels under each one pretty soon. Emptying the waste water is also too much of a pain. I'm rigging a suction pump to suck out the waste water via a hand held wand. Helper D is burning out on dumping waste buckets. To put it in his words I'm "Harshing His Mellow". Even though he has the best job in the world (also his words), we still aim to keep him happy. I also had to promise him a couple new glass water pieces and some hash gear. He's so spoiled.


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## Luger187 (Feb 14, 2011)

i really wish i had this lol

lookin good man!


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## legallyflying (Feb 14, 2011)

Legit for sure collective. I like your style. Any reason you didn't decide to go hydro? I always thought hydro would be easier in a really large scale. 

Anywho, I thought of a name for your dank purple monster plants.."Barney". Great,now I'm going to have that damn I love you, you love me song in my head.


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## Stomata (Feb 14, 2011)

Are you gonna have armed security there 24/7?


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## collective gardener (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks for the support, gang. I'll be back tonight with some pics of the new gear.


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## Sr. Verde (Feb 14, 2011)

Stomata said:


> Are you gonna have armed security there 24/7?


I'm guessing landmines.

Yeah, definitely landmines.


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## Luger187 (Feb 15, 2011)

Stomata said:


> Are you gonna have armed security there 24/7?


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## TheLastWood (Feb 15, 2011)

Awesome bro, subscribed

And if D won't stop complanin ill quit my job and come help you. Just kiddin, kinda....


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## TahoeGrown (Feb 15, 2011)

epic grow plants look lush and healthy. I am very envious of your large scale grow. you are like living my dream haha i guess i will have to deal with my 1000 watt grow. I was wondering are you on the script where you have to renew every six months or is yours annually? mad props on the grow keep up the hard work it musta be insanely time consuming with everything.
subd for sure
peace


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## TahoeGrown (Feb 15, 2011)

Luger187 said:


>



its all about the water balloons.


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## LostFarmer (Feb 15, 2011)

Awsome grow man wish i could grow that many plants

Lost


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## collective gardener (Feb 15, 2011)

Stomata said:


> Are you gonna have armed security there 24/7?


Holy shit...wish I had it last night. We were broke into. Nothing stolen, though. Bastards pried open a door, opened the door to the room, opened the door to bloom room, and then left. Guess we're lucky we're not to far along. Mostly pissed that they left the flower room door open. Lots of light.

Spent the day helping my welder and Helper D fabricate and install a jail house style cage inside door. Couldn't crash a car through it now. Security guy is coming tomorrow to install cameras, motion detectors, video recording loop, link to internet, text message alarm to me and Helper D in case of intrusion. We are armed, pissed off, and extremely dangerous.


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## collective gardener (Feb 15, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Awesome bro, subscribed
> 
> And if D won't stop complanin ill quit my job and come help you. Just kiddin, kinda....


Thank you much. I can now tell Helper D that people are in line for his job. He got pissed at me cause I asked him not to burn all day long while we work. I told him he could burn...just maybe wait till noon and keep it to a few puffs. Anyways, he seems over it.


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## collective gardener (Feb 15, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> Legit for sure collective. I like your style. Any reason you didn't decide to go hydro? I always thought hydro would be easier in a really large scale.
> 
> Anywho, I thought of a name for your dank purple monster plants.."Barney". Great,now I'm going to have that damn I love you, you love me song in my head.


Hydro would be easier. With plants this large on a perpetual, it's necessary to be able to move them around. The only hydro system that would fit the bill would be individual DWC buckets. I decided to start with soiless, and slowly work in a few DWC buckets to see how well they do next to 10 gallon soiless. It's so important that nothing goes wrong with these first few crops that I wanted to go with what I know works well and is forgiving. If the DWC buckets do well, we may slowly switch.

I like Barney for the Purple. One patient calls it Purple Death. It's totally couch lock dope.


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## collective gardener (Feb 15, 2011)

TahoeGrown said:


> epic grow plants look lush and healthy. I am very envious of your large scale grow. you are like living my dream haha i guess i will have to deal with my 1000 watt grow. I was wondering are you on the script where you have to renew every six months or is yours annually? mad props on the grow keep up the hard work it musta be insanely time consuming with everything.
> subd for sure
> peace


Thank you for noticing the healthy plants. You're the first to mention it! It goes to show that simple still works the best. You can check out our nutes...totally simple and CHEAP. We have been feeding around 1000ppm and a PH of between 5.5 and 6 in the veg room. The bloom room is getting 1000ppm and PH of 5.8 to 6.2. We will ramp up the ppm in the bllom room as buds start forming. We water every day...sometimes twice/day. I also flush with 6.5 PH 40ppm RO water every Sunday..."though shall not feed on the seventh day of the week". The flush quantity is twice the amount of water it takes to get runoff. In other words, if it takes 35 seconds of watering to achieve runnoff, we flush for 70 seconds. 

My rec. is renewed every year. I'm hoping that as we sign up new members I won't need to fall back on such a heavy rec to justify the plant numbers. We want 20-30 members total. The problem is finding trustworthy good people to join our collective. We also require that you need at least one ounce per week. It's a great way to operate. We will grow whatever strain our members want. I am even willing to grow organic plants for patients that really have a preference. Once we get the right amount of members, the price will be very reasonable: probably around $220.00/ounce.

Keep that 1000 watt cooking. Perfect your growing techniques. One day you may get the offer that I got: to manage a real growing operation without puting out a dime. You'd be amazed at how many rich people out there want to put the money to work in this industry. We are paying 8% on the line of credit we were given to do this. Where else can a wealthy person get 8%? Since starting this, I have been given 2 more offers from people wanting to throw money at me. These guys are out there. One day I just casually asked this guy if he would be interested in puting some money in a medical marijuana grow op...he didn't even hesitate. I believe that any grower with some real talent, and the ability to put together a business model, can do this. Good luck to you.


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## collective gardener (Feb 15, 2011)

LostFarmer said:


> Awsome grow man wish i could grow that many plants
> 
> Lost


Thank you. I'm sure you can figure out a way to grow this many plants. OR, see how big of plants you can grow. I believe that with plants numbers being such an issue, growing huge plants indoors is the next new thing. SOG and SCROG is dying in the medical ops.


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## middle84 (Feb 15, 2011)

what do you measure you ppm with


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## wanabe (Feb 15, 2011)

looking great
from cali as well
subd


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## BMEISTER (Feb 15, 2011)

im from cali and i totally agree! besides the good weed laws theres not much here


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## yowzza (Feb 15, 2011)

Nice setup, I cant wait to see what it can do!


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## collective gardener (Feb 15, 2011)

middle84 said:


> what do you measure you ppm with


I don't remeber the name brand of my meter. It's a digital and waterproof ppm meter. I'll get you the make tomorrow.


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## collective gardener (Feb 15, 2011)

wanabe said:


> looking great
> from cali as well
> subd


Thank you much! Norcal or SoCal?


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## collective gardener (Feb 15, 2011)

yowzza said:


> Nice setup, I cant wait to see what it can do!


Thanks. Let's all hope it does well. We have 8 more lights to add in the flower room to be at full speed.


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## mcgyversmoke (Feb 16, 2011)

stuff looks amazing man totally sub'd and along for the ride. 
im from so cal but i live in norcal and i gotta say you are my freaking hero,

food for thought and i like getting peoples opinions.
What was your opinion of prop 19? do you believe there is a real place for marijuana in our society the same as there is with alch? givin that alchohol is much more damaging and addicting to peoples lives. sorry if the questions dont make sense... i'm sober haha

i am also a medical patient so i would love to see how this turns out. and maybe contribute sometime.
have a good one man
~mac


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## Gopedxr (Feb 16, 2011)

Yea what everyone said plus this thread is probably the coolest on the site i could say. Its different and looks like your doin great i just looked at the pictures. You know thats the other thing i kind of forgot to ask and think about is security, With all of that money just in equipment lights not even including the plants or soil and nutes water put into them if that stuff got ripped off seems a lot of money be lost and a lot of people be angry. 

So after seeing what you said i was thinking yea almost a lot of citys down here in socal like LA Riverside San diego they are not the best places in the world by any means. I suggest if your in either of those places get some paid security premises. Just seems like it could be affordable? 

Keep it up


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## collective gardener (Feb 16, 2011)

mcgyversmoke said:


> stuff looks amazing man totally sub'd and along for the ride.
> im from so cal but i live in norcal and i gotta say you are my freaking hero,
> 
> food for thought and i like getting peoples opinions.
> ...


Mac, thanks for the good words. I think recreational use has a place in society. I'm not sure Prop 19 was the way to do it. I have many friends who make their living growing and they felt very threatened by Prop 19. They were afraid of price drops.

The bottom line is, the feds don't want it legal on any type of large scale. Until they do, it won't be legal. It was the Feds who defeated Prop 19 with 2 press releases:

1) Attorney General states that even if Prop 19 passes, the feds will still enforce US drug law.
2) Rand Corporation issues results of their study on the impact Prop 19 would likely have if passed. One of the findings is a likely 80% drop in prices. With that statement, anyone who makes their living on pot votes NO, and many launch campaigns to vote NO. Who is Rand? Rand is a military/industrial "think tank". I'll let you do the math.

I probably got off topic. We love the Medical Marijuana scene. Isn't most use medical in many ways? I mean, if a person is stressed out from the pressures of life, and this harmless plant makes them feel better, isn't that the same as being prescribed by a "doctor" one of the many drugs to make you happier?


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## Sr. Verde (Feb 16, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I probably got off topic. We love the Medical Marijuana scene. Isn't most use medical in many ways? I mean, if a person is stressed out from the pressures of life, and this harmless plant makes them feel better, isn't that the same as being prescribed by a "doctor" one of the many drugs to make you happier?


That's what I'm saying. I like the medical system... sellling to , growing for, trading with... patients, all legally! And people who are actually patents, are into it. They get it. It's a small inner circle of society that we all love..

Nothing to complain about right now  Except for federal laws


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## adamhew77 (Feb 16, 2011)

My Doctor's recommendation says up to 90 plants in a 10'x10' and 6 pounds of dry bud. per person here in Santa Barbara....variations ...knew about them but ...never seen another recommendation(from someone elsewhere). Does anyone know anything about LED lighting...I hear the sales pitch from the company trying to sell me on the product but no-one to vouch for the production quality growth time-line...real pros and cons on the product.. Love the room and honestly I am following in your foot steps...new to the indoor scene and just getting started..but inevitably working toward my own 20,000 watt set-up or an equivalent...any advice would be greatly appreciated


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## Sr. Verde (Feb 16, 2011)

adamhew77 said:


> My Doctor's recommendation says up to 90 plants in a 10'x10' and 6 pounds of dry bud. per person here in Santa Barbara....variations ...knew about them but ...never seen another recommendation(from someone elsewhere... Does anyone know anything about LED lighting...I hear the sales pitch from the company trying to sell me on the product but no-one to vouch for the production quality growth time-line...real pros and cons on the product.. Love the room and honestly I am following in your foot steps...new to the scene and just getting started..but inevitably working toward my own 20,000 watt set-up or an equivalent...any advice would be greatly appreciated


LED technology is beginning to really kick ass.. at least in the developmental stage.. i'm actually working on such a project

thats a lot of plants in a 10x10 space though! Nearly 1 per square foot.


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## legallyflying (Feb 16, 2011)

adamhew77 said:


> Love the room and honestly I am following in your foot steps...new to the scene and just getting started..but inevitably working toward my own 20,000 watt set-up or an equivalent...any advice would be greatly appreciated


I'm not trying to discourage you or anything but 20,000 watts and "new to the scene" rarely go good together. Anyone can grow weed, but it really does take an attention to detail to grow the really good bud. Like the kind of bud that people will purchase in a medical state.


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## Sr. Verde (Feb 16, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> I'm not trying to discourage you or anything but 20,000 watts and "new to the scene" rarely go good together. Anyone can grow weed, but it really does take an attention to detail to grow the really good bud. Like the kind of bud that people will purchase in a medical state.


He said he's working towards it 


If you have a good head on your shoulders, after a few grows and a place like Rollitup... and some success... I would see no problem for someone with means to work their way to a 20kw grow..

Just adding about 3kw of lights each time... you'll get there, and by the time your there growing should seem pretty second nature & it should be pretty well understood by you at that time


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## Gopedxr (Feb 16, 2011)

Anyone see my post? lol This is a great thread you guys. But as mentioned before he almost got ripped off. I dont know how much money he put into this already but sounds like a lot and if that stuff got tooken some one would be out a lot of money. 

So just keep thinking security security security. Keep things safe and everyone be happy. Cant Wait to see more pics!


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## SCCA (Feb 16, 2011)

Very nice set-up collective gardener, your plants are looking great! im definitely following this one!


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## Wood. (Feb 16, 2011)

awesome man. i wish i had this much space.


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## adamhew77 (Feb 16, 2011)

Sr.Verde. .... They didn't say how tall it could be 
and that number includes clones and such so ...a full 10x 10 I am guessing will hold at best 45 or so with a mother or 2 and 44 more clones waiting ...vegging you could easily optimize that number for sure. ..and thanks for the vote of confidence..I appreciate the positive note 
and Legallyflying.....I have grown outdoors in another state(GA) for over half my life(i'm 34) I am just new to indoor and LEGALLY growing... My first grow blew the guys away at several collectives around Santa Barbara ...so believe me when I say I am blessed with a gift of a green thumb. My hydro indoor garden is completely organic even with natural CO2 in 3 corners making the whole tent smell like a cross between a skunk and freshly baked rolls lol 
POKE SOME SMOT YA"LL


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## collective gardener (Feb 16, 2011)

adamhew77 said:


> My Doctor's recommendation says up to 90 plants in a 10'x10' and 6 pounds of dry bud. per person here in Santa Barbara....variations ...knew about them but ...never seen another recommendation(from someone elsewhere). Does anyone know anything about LED lighting...I hear the sales pitch from the company trying to sell me on the product but no-one to vouch for the production quality growth time-line...real pros and cons on the product.. Love the room and honestly I am following in your foot steps...new to the indoor scene and just getting started..but inevitably working toward my own 20,000 watt set-up or an equivalent...any advice would be greatly appreciated


I think we're getting close on the LED front...spectrum is good, and distribution is great. I don't like the penetration shortfall. I've seen some big $$$ LED ops up close. If you're growing SOG or SCROG, it's very productive, especially with the savings in cooling costs. In a med op with relatively low plant numbers, penetration is key. We grow some pretty big plants. 1000 watt HID seems to still grow big plants best.
I grew with 2 - 1000 watt HPS's and a 400 Halide for about 10 years. It was very fun and could be extremely productive. You may want to start around that size until you can grow about 5 crops in a row with no issues (powdery, low yield, etc...) before expanding. It's harder than it sounds! Once you can do that, the sky is the limit. Many people concentrate too much on the latest crazt nute combination and high dollar lighting. Concentrate on your atmosphere and canopy shape. Everything else is easy. Good luck and do what works for you...regardless of what I or anyone else says.


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## wanabe (Feb 16, 2011)

im from nor cali where the bud is better


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## Gopedxr (Feb 16, 2011)

wanabe said:


> im from nor cali where the bud is better


 Not when it comes to sativa outside in the fall and the storms come haha! It sucks seasons get cut short on sativas by like 3 weeks comes out ok but could of been a lot better.


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## southside420 (Feb 16, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Keep that 1000 watt cooking. Perfect your growing techniques. One day you may get the offer that I got: to manage a real growing operation without puting out a dime. You'd be amazed at how many rich people out there want to put the money to work in this industry. We are paying 8% on the line of credit we were given to do this. Where else can a wealthy person get 8%? Since starting this, I have been given 2 more offers from people wanting to throw money at me. These guys are out there. One day I just casually asked this guy if he would be interested in puting some money in a medical marijuana grow op...he didn't even hesitate. I believe that any grower with some real talent, and the ability to put together a business model, can do this. Good luck to you.


You have no idea how right you are about this. I´m from FL and the laws here suck, I´m flying out to Cali in March to check out some investment opportunities there, and now that AZ, and DC are opening up, it´s the dam Green Rush. +rep to you sir for your fine work.


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## Air Rover (Feb 16, 2011)

Your setup looks awesome man. But like someone already said "security, security, security." Other than locking doors do have any other security measures?


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## collective gardener (Feb 16, 2011)

Ok gang, got some new pics today. I'm recovering emotionally from the break in, and feel good about the security. We still can't quite figure out why they didn't take anything. If they were planning on returning when the plants are done, they would have closed some doors and not made it so obvious that they had been there. The consensus seems to be that when they saw the room they got scared, thinking that they stumbled onto some serious stuff that may get them hurt. If they do come back they better bring some serious tools.

This is the new entry gate. They had pried back the window frame away from the latch. We made that impossible, and then added the gate for good merasure. My welder buddy fabricated this up for us in under 10 hours and Helper D and I installed it last night.


This is a 12 volt pump with strainer that we use to pump the waste water from the buckets to the bathroom. It makes Helper D's job much easier. Until yesterday, he was carrying 5 gallon buckets to the toilet every other day. The strainer catches all the perilite and soil, and is very easy to clean.


This is the electrical panel. Al the EMT conduit running to the right is leading to the grow room. I have to add 2 more conduit runs to complete the system. One is for more lights, and the other for a future ductless split air conditioning system. Anyone building a room this size should budget plenty of time and money for the electrical work. We did all of the work ourselves and it was still pretty expensive. All of the wire is over sized, and no circuit is using more than 70% of its rated capacity.


This fan is for a carbon filter that we'll be installing in a couple weeks. The smell will be getting strong by then. I'll probably add another one, as well. We will also be changing the ducting on the air cooled lights to draw air from outside the room. I didn't have time originally because the plants arrived way sooner and way bigger than we had planned. But, that's a good thingh.


With all of the debate over which ballast is better, I decided to use both Lumatek and Phantoms to see if there is really any difference. So far, they're the same. They also cost the same. I get the 1000 watt dimmables for $300. I guess we'll see which one lasts the longest.


This is a Trainwreck clone I picked up from Clonville...and she is a trainwreck. All the other clones did good, but this one looks burnt to hell. They only get fed 300ppm, and I flushed the shit out of this one. Anyways, we have our first casuality.


The plants in the flower room have already out grown the 4 lights. We'll be putting in another 4 - 1000 watt lights this week and bringing in another 8 plants from the veg room. Before we do this I need to install the cooling ducting for all 12 lights that will ultimately occupy the bloom room. We go to the HVAC store tomorrow. BTW, all that ducting can get pretty expensive.

That's it for today. Thanks to the whole gang for the kind words. I truly wish we could all get together and just get blasted from the first harvest. Maybe the So Cal peeps can put together a meeting at the beach in April for a sample session.


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## collective gardener (Feb 16, 2011)

wanabe said:


> im from nor cali where the bud is better


Thanks for stopping by. It would be great if we could keep this thread on a positive vibe without any hate or geographical bud quality competition. Thanks.


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## collective gardener (Feb 16, 2011)

Air Rover said:


> Your setup looks awesome man. But like someone already said "security, security, security." Other than locking doors do have any other security measures?


Thank you. We put in the gate, and I have a guy coming by to wire the place up with cameras, motion sensors, text message alarms...the whole deal. My wet dream would be a way to actuall trap intruders inside until me and Helper D could get there to deal with them. "it puts the lotion on its skin"


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## collective gardener (Feb 16, 2011)

Wood. said:


> awesome man. i wish i had this much space.


 
Thanks, man. Didn't I see a monster garage grow you did?...or am I high?


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## collective gardener (Feb 16, 2011)

SCCA said:


> Very nice set-up collective gardener, your plants are looking great! im definitely following this one!


Thank you much. Stay onboard and we'll all see together what this thing can do.


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## collective gardener (Feb 16, 2011)

Gopedxr said:


> Anyone see my post? lol This is a great thread you guys. But as mentioned before he almost got ripped off. I dont know how much money he put into this already but sounds like a lot and if that stuff got tooken some one would be out a lot of money.
> 
> So just keep thinking security security security. Keep things safe and everyone be happy. Cant Wait to see more pics!


We're at about $40,000 including all labor, equipment, power, lease, and insurance


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## SCCA (Feb 17, 2011)

nice security gate gardener! i like the pump for draining the buckets, but why don't you plumb the buckets together sort of like a dwc. and drain them out with the pump. it would eliminate alot of physical labor.


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## collective gardener (Feb 17, 2011)

SCCA said:


> nice security gate gardener! i like the pump for draining the buckets, but why don't you plumb the buckets together sort of like a dwc. and drain them out with the pump. it would eliminate alot of physical labor.


I'm glad you dig the gate. We call it the polar bear cage. I like to move the plants around all the time. That becomes difficult with tubing going everywhere. It's the same reason I don't use a hydro system. Everyday I have a few plants pulled out and I'm bending and tying and cutting and shit. I also rotate all of the plants 9o degrees each day. Everytime I've linked buckets with tubing it's been a big hassle. So, we do it old school. It gives Helper D a job, and it makes us get down and actually look at every plant very carefully every day. No to jinx myself or brag, but I haven't had an insect or powdery mildew problem in the last 10 years of growing. I believe that's from lots of contact with the plants. If there is a problem developing, I can see it right away and deal with it before it becomes a major issue. I feel like if I make watering too easy, we won't have the close plant contact that we do now.


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## CallmeTex (Feb 17, 2011)

Diggin this grow. I can't wait until I get a chance to do something like this legally. I've seen large grows use coasters with wheels on them to maneuver plants easily. Just an idea.

Subbed, best regards from Texas.


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## Sr. Verde (Feb 17, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Holy shit...wish I had it last night. We were broke into. Nothing stolen, though. Bastards pried open a door, opened the door to the room, opened the door to bloom room, and then left. Guess we're lucky we're not to far along. Mostly pissed that they left the flower room door open. Lots of light.



Sounds like they opened the door, saw the plants had no value _yet_ and left.

You need to be super duper careful now that someone has broken in, and seen your plants and how far along they are.

I'm sure you know it's not uncommon for someone to _find_ a grow op, leave, then _return_ around harvest time to steal all your plants.


Just be really careful man! You can't invest _too_ much in security!

Loving the measures you are taking right now though, I would LOVE a tour of such a setup! I'd love to turn a place like that into a bud factory


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## collective gardener (Feb 17, 2011)

CallmeTex said:


> Diggin this grow. I can't wait until I get a chance to do something like this legally. I've seen large grows use coasters with wheels on them to maneuver plants easily. Just an idea.
> 
> Subbed, best regards from Texas.


Tex, you're reading my mind. I was searching Ebay last night for some bulk castors. They want like 3 bucks per wheel at Home depot. We would need around 300 wheels! I found em on Ebay for under a buck/wheel. I'll order them straight away so Helper D can start building little carts for his babies. I'm glad you're digging the op. We feel like we're not just doing this for us. We are also checking out some cancer and AIDS outreach programs to donate some herb to. It's the right thing to do and helps us legally. Every successful grow op should try to help out people who are terminally sick. I would challenge other medium/large ops to do the same.


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## collective gardener (Feb 17, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> Sounds like they opened the door, saw the plants had no value _yet_ and left.
> 
> You need to be super duper careful now that someone has broken in, and seen your plants and how far along they are.
> 
> ...


Verde, we thought the same thing. But why oh why didn't they at least _try_ to cover up the fact that they had been here? I mean, shit, the front door was left wide open. It would have been very easy to just close the doors. If they did, They wouldn't have to deal with the polar bear cage when they return. Anyways, I'm thinking of manning the op 24/7 once there's heavy finished product here. We are also considering drying, curing, packaging, and storing offsite. Since our 3 core members all have 4lb recs, we could legally store 12lbs between all of us. 
Keep on me about the security in case I start slacking. Any suggestions from anyone is welcome. When calling the cops or an alarm company is not an option, we're limitted on what measures we can take.


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## Wood. (Feb 17, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Thanks, man. Didn't I see a monster garage grow you did?...or am I high?


yeah i only have 100 amps though!!! and like 2000 sq ft MAYBE. im on the market for a warehouse, we just have such a narrow "legal" nursery zoning area its hard finding one. hence me being in this house kinda half assin' it.

your op is amazing. wish i had that kinda money to work with too! congrats my friend, the plants look absolutely beautiful.


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## Wood. (Feb 17, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Verde, we thought the same thing. But why oh why didn't they at least _try_ to cover up the fact that they had been here? I mean, shit, the front door was left wide open. It would have been very easy to just close the doors. If they did, They wouldn't have to deal with the polar bear cage when they return. Anyways, I'm thinking of manning the op 24/7 once there's heavy finished product here. We are also considering drying, curing, packaging, and storing offsite. Since our 3 core members all have 4lb recs, we could legally store 12lbs between all of us.
> Keep on me about the security in case I start slacking. Any suggestions from anyone is welcome. When calling the cops or an alarm company is not an option, we're limitted on what measures we can take.


we have an alarm on our club and @ our old facility and had the alarm go off a few times, the cops never went inside. they always would say go in and if anyone is in there then let them know. it was strange. they would just walk around and check for signs of forced entry if there was they would just hang out till we got there. (had someone chop through a bay door with a axe and steal a bag of trim) 

if your permitted i would at least get an alarm that calls you and has a loud siren. maybe not one that calls the police...


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## adamhew77 (Feb 17, 2011)

Im on the Central Coast.. I'll make the drive south for that anytime...there is insurance ...seen it in High times..dont know how good it is but ..just an idea


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## collective gardener (Feb 17, 2011)

Wood. said:


> yeah i only have 100 amps though!!! and like 2000 sq ft MAYBE. im on the market for a warehouse, we just have such a narrow "legal" nursery zoning area its hard finding one. hence me being in this house kinda half assin' it.
> 
> your op is amazing. wish i had that kinda money to work with too! congrats my friend, the plants look absolutely beautiful.


I knew I remembered you. According to our lawyer, the growing location just needs to be zoned either M-1 or M-2. We're in an M-1 space...lots of machine shops and carpentry shops. I'm not sure what the gig is with a "nursery" zone...although I'm sure you've done your homework.

Yeah...100 amps is alot, but that would just tease you after a while. 200 is pretty much a must, and 300 is where you want to be. My commercial growing buddy has 2 x 300amp panels and 500+ plants. To be honest, it would be too big for me. They have 4 people working it and none of them has a life besides working the grow. They pull in around 25 lbs per month with 2 rooms on a flip, each room running 25 - 600 watt lights. It sounds like alot, but with 4 people working it, you're better off with around 20 lights and 2 people. Anyways, good luck on finding a space...god knows, with this economy, they're out there.


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## collective gardener (Feb 17, 2011)

Wood. said:


> we have an alarm on our club and @ our old facility and had the alarm go off a few times, the cops never went inside. they always would say go in and if anyone is in there then let them know. it was strange. they would just walk around and check for signs of forced entry if there was they would just hang out till we got there. (had someone chop through a bay door with a axe and steal a bag of trim)
> 
> if your permitted i would at least get an alarm that calls you and has a loud siren. maybe not one that calls the police...


 
Through the door with an axe?


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## Wood. (Feb 18, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Through the door with an axe?


yeah, you can see where they were bashing away at it before it finally pealed open like a sardine can. definitely an axe though.

thats totally what we said too, like "really?"


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## Sr. Verde (Feb 18, 2011)

You know how mad people get when they are high on their reefer 


But seriously, people are crazy...


I mean who steals weed? Come on... I don't even think I would get high if I knew the weed was stolen.


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## collective gardener (Feb 18, 2011)

adamhew77 said:


> Im on the Central Coast.. I'll make the drive south for that anytime...there is insurance ...seen it in High times..dont know how good it is but ..just an idea


Your drive would be about 45 miunutes...lol


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## adamhew77 (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm game in about 3 months or so....just starting to flower


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## Wallmandummy (Feb 19, 2011)

lol is it bad when i grow room makes you drool in lust a lil lol


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## collective gardener (Feb 19, 2011)

So I get this PM from a guy in here who is pitching me to build a website for me. I don't know why, but it kind of pissed me off. Why do I want a website? He even offered to take care of the photography. WTF? Am I supposed to have this dude come by the op and take pictures? Am I out of line to be pissed off over this?


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## dankog (Feb 19, 2011)

WTF. 

Maybe he's just naive and trying to be helpful...maybe, but then we know he's kind of stupid so no matter how you look at it RUN RUN RUN. 

Geezus.


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## collective gardener (Feb 19, 2011)

adamhew77 said:


> I'm game in about 3 months or so....just starting to flower


U buy equipment at Stop-n-Grow?


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## collective gardener (Feb 19, 2011)

Wallmandummy said:


> lol is it bad when i grow room makes you drool in lust a lil lol


 
Right on. Nice compliment. I can't believe all this great feeback and not one bud, yet. I'm starting to feel some pressure in here to really turn out something special.


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## collective gardener (Feb 19, 2011)

dankog said:


> WTF.
> 
> Maybe he's just naive and trying to be helpful...maybe, but then we know he's kind of stupid so no matter how you look at it RUN RUN RUN.
> 
> Geezus.


Running...like the wind. I ignored his friend request. He's probably innocent. My mind just tends to go to the worst place. Also, I hate sales pitches....especially here. This place is supposed to be something so different than that kind of shit. Even if he's just trying to drum up some business (which, I'm pretty sure is all he's doing), this doesn't seem like the right place to do it. Hell, pay the site for an add, eh?

While I'm here, I'll try and clarify something: We're a private collective association. We are not advertising for new members. We have nothing to sell. We are a group of medical marijuana patients who have decided to pitch in our resources and grow our own medicine. We may accept new members if referred by an existing member. The only soliciting we do is to reach out into the community for terminal and/or gravely ill patients who cannot afford their medication so that we can provide it to them free of charge.


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## flamdrags420 (Feb 19, 2011)

incredible!
Love your exhaust manifold
what sort of flanges are you using?


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## collective gardener (Feb 19, 2011)

flamdrags420 said:


> incredible!
> Love your exhaust manifold
> what sort of flanges are you using?


Thanks, man. The manifolds are the ones sold by Hydrofarm. They're in their catelog next to the green inline fans. I forget the name. I think I paid about 10 bucks per flange and they come with a seal.


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## dankog (Feb 19, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Running...like the wind. I ignored his friend request. He's probably innocent. My mind just tends to go to the worst place. Also, I hate sales pitches....especially here. This place is supposed to be something so different than that kind of shit. Even if he's just trying to drum up some business (which, I'm pretty sure is all he's doing), this doesn't seem like the right place to do it. Hell, pay the site for an add, eh?



I agree--I think it was probably just enthusiasm, but still...

I actually had a question for you-- What is the most important qualities to look for in a good warehouse? Electicity, space? I was curious what you've learned over the years in terms of picking a good location--

Thanks for sharing this information--it's really informative! I'm just growing for myself, but it's always fascinating to read about other styles of growing


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## adamhew77 (Feb 19, 2011)

Pictures of your set-up ..that in it's self sounds like the dude is casing the place. Or even if not it sounds like the kind of loose lips that would sink ships ya know. Call me old school but I would never let ANYBODY know what I am doing where I am doing and show them details online. Criminals nature to do criminal shit seems to ring clear in my mind. I am a little unclear are you setting up just a grow co-op to supply a dispensary or is this in conjunction with a dispensary? A dispensary may need a site and I believe it could greatly benefit from having an online menu but if you are just growing for the co-op then chase that dude away with a freaking ball bat!! lol IMO


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## adamhew77 (Feb 19, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> U buy equipment at Stop-n-Grow?


 na man I got alot of nosey neighbors so I have found all my stuff online at Amazon mostly..the tent I have was only $115.00 where everywhere else want upwards of $500.00, I also found a digital ballast/ air-cooltube light with Bat wing 600 watt for like $225 comes with both bulbs...I checked all around locally and these folks have that Santa Barbara mark up the same set up was over $400.00 .If you know of a reasonable local place I will for sure check it out. I like to spend local if at all possible.


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## Emerald Isles (Feb 19, 2011)

Wish I had the experience to contribute to your amazing journey !! Love the post, an avid watcher


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## W N L (Feb 19, 2011)

Looks real smexy


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## TheLastWood (Feb 19, 2011)

Why don't u get some guard dogs. Guns are great if your there, alarms are great if you want cops to come. Keep up the good work man.


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## collective gardener (Feb 19, 2011)

dankog said:


> I agree--I think it was probably just enthusiasm, but still...
> 
> I actually had a question for you-- What is the most important qualities to look for in a good warehouse? Electicity, space? I was curious what you've learned over the years in terms of picking a good location--
> 
> Thanks for sharing this information--it's really informative! I'm just growing for myself, but it's always fascinating to read about other styles of growing


That is a really great question. Choosing the right location can greatly improve our chances of a successful grow. Also, once we've commited to a location, we're in for the long haul. While moving is possible, it's expensive, dangerous, stresses the crop, and is an overall buzz kill. BUT, you always have to be ready and willing to move...and fast...if your gut says "it's not safe here". We also have a moving procedure. If an event requires a move your mind is probably going a million mph. You won't be thinking clearly. Therefore, having the procedure written down in steps makes moving a no brainer. Just follow the steps. Step #1 Rent 2 big fuck-all moving trucks...veg truck and bloom truck...

So, how pick a location. I start with a light count. We will be using 20 - 1000 watt lights. Then I figure 16 sq ft/light. I will require 320 sq ft for canopy. I then just double that for walk ways, water storage, etc...So, I will need at least 640 sq ft. Our current room is 672. 

The next step is to calc how much of the total warehouse space do you want to use for growing. I like 50%. This way, if the door needs to be opened, you don't see a wall 12" inside the roll up door. Also, I like to be able to drive a large truck into the warehouse and shut the door behind it. This is for deliveries and the above mentioned emergency evacuation. With this info, I would like about 1300 sq ft. Our current warehouse is around 1500 sq ft. 

My light count also gives me my electrical needs. I will need 200 amps for lights and around 100 amps for cooling, pumps, dehumidifiers, etc...I will need at least a 300amp panel. 

Once I have these needs we can go shopping. I always prefer a deep, narrow space. I want to get the plants as far away from the roll up door as possible. Most spaces are built this way. When I look at property I just go with my gut. I must have a good gut, cause there are at least 2 other grow ops in the area. One is a friend, and one I discovered while looking at the property and talking to the neighbors. A neighbor told me "the guys on the end are medical marijuana growers". I asked him what he thought about that, and he told me he was all for it. Bingo. That's my new next door neighbor. I can't emphasize enough to go with your gut. Look at alot of places. Go there during the week and during the weekend. You don't want too much traffic, but you don't want to be all alone and vulnerable to rip off or robbery. 

While it would be best to build your grow op to code, it's veyr hard. If you put in a ceiling, you need fire sprinklers. To do that you'll need a permit and to shut down the fire service while you tie in. This draws alot of attention. I prefer to grow fast and quite. I have a feeling that the next space will be much larger and fully permitted. We are ready for full legalization and prepared to pay whatever is necessary for large scale commercial growing permits. We would probably stay a medical provider, but much much bigger.

The fire marshall will want to see the property at some point. You should throw some tools and stuff in there and call him to inspect. Once that is done, you start the build. I did not do this this time cause the plants were on the way. So, I don't pull a business license (thats how they find you), and we are quite wityh coming and going. If the marshall sees us go in, we're fucked. We keep the doors closed and locked always. The marshal drives around and looks for open units. As long as the unit looks unoccupied, he won't mess with you.

I put a time line on every grow. We'll be here no more than 24 months. The more time the more risk. It costs money to move, but with some planning, your crop will not miss a beat. Our grow room is 100% screwed together. We can take it down in 2 days or so. Another few days to clean the unit, and we're off to the next space. I always have my eye out for that next perfect space. 

I hope this helps.


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## collective gardener (Feb 19, 2011)

adamhew77 said:


> Pictures of your set-up ..that in it's self sounds like the dude is casing the place. Or even if not it sounds like the kind of loose lips that would sink ships ya know. Call me old school but I would never let ANYBODY know what I am doing where I am doing and show them details online. Criminals nature to do criminal shit seems to ring clear in my mind. I am a little unclear are you setting up just a grow co-op to supply a dispensary or is this in conjunction with a dispensary? A dispensary may need a site and I believe it could greatly benefit from having an online menu but if you are just growing for the co-op then chase that dude away with a freaking ball bat!! lol IMO


 
We're just growing to supply our members. In the event we grow too much, I can legally sell the overage to a dispensary. There are 3 dispensarys who will always buy whatever we have.

No...this guy needs to go away. He's innocent enough...just another sales call at 9pm. RIU is a place to share experiences, knowledge, and pictures...not a platform for sales pitches. My experience here has always been that if someone is looking for something, they ask the forum. Sales pitches have no place here and should be banned.


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## collective gardener (Feb 19, 2011)

Emerald Isles said:


> Wish I had the experience to contribute to your amazing journey !! Love the post, an avid watcher


 
You _are_ contributing, man. You're here with good energy, sharing the journey.


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## collective gardener (Feb 19, 2011)

W N L said:


> Looks real smexy


 
I don't know what smexy is, but I like it. Thanks.


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## collective gardener (Feb 19, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Why don't u get some guard dogs. Guns are great if your there, alarms are great if you want cops to come. Keep up the good work man.


We thought about dogs. It's just if someone every poisened them, or killed them however to get in, I would never forgive myself. I just love dogs way too much to put them in harms way. My alarm guy is setting up this deal where we will be texted if an alarm is tripped. No cops. Unfortunately, my lawyer says that it pisses the cops off big time if you're broken into and they are not called. My fantasy is still to have the place rigged to trap them inside. "Put the fucking lotion on your skin!"


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## dankog (Feb 19, 2011)

That's cool that you're thinking about the dogs--maybe just an automatic taser gun to go off if anyone trips the alarm. Stun gun them on the spot--

Thanks for sharing--it's very informative. What do you do about exhaust? (Are there windows?)

I'm really glad it's working out good


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## collective gardener (Feb 19, 2011)

dankog said:


> That's cool that you're thinking about the dogs--maybe just an automatic taser gun to go off if anyone trips the alarm. Stun gun them on the spot--
> 
> Thanks for sharing--it's very informative. What do you do about exhaust? (Are there windows?)
> 
> I'm really glad it's working out good


Exhaust and atmoshpere control is very near and dear to my heart. So many people get caught up in these crazy nutrient blends (Advanced Nutes..."with just 37 bottles of stuff, you too can grow'), that they overlook the ever important atmosphere. 

My last op was a sealed room. It's the best, no doubt. Eventually, this op will be sealed with a 5 ton ductless split AC system. We were planning to do this right off the bat, but the early arrival of 29 - 12" plants demanded a quick fix. The building came with 2 - 12" direct drive exhaust roof fans. Fortunately, they were directly over the flower room. I left one just exhausating the main warehouse, and built a manifold box around the other. I ducted 2 - 8" ducts directly into the bloom room. We feed air into the veg room and have 4 light proof ducts allowing air to flow from the veg room to the flower room, and then out the roof. The lights and portable AC exhaust is ducted out the roof of the bloom room into the main warehouse. This must all change soon. 

The lights can exhaust into the main warehouse because there is no odor in that air. The AC exhaust, however, does pick up some odor. So, in the next couple weeks i need to either buy a couple more AC's and carbon scrub their exhaust, or, bite the bullet and install a ductless split system and seal the room. Of course, once we seal the room, I'll have to start adding CO2. In my opinion running CO2 in an un-sealed room is a waste of money. On the other hand, in a sealed room, you end up using so little CO2 that the smallest of burners (or even tanks) do the trick. All you are adding is what the plants are using and whatever is spilled when you enter the room. I am leaning towards the ductless and CO2.

For humididty, I've found that a powerful ductless split system does most of the work. I will probably have to add a 70 pint dehumidifier in the bloom room. I like to keep the bloom room at 40%. Anything higher invites powdery mildew. Once I reduce the humidity to 40% I also reduce the nutrient strength to around 800ppm. The plants will use alot of water at 40% RH. I basically adjust the nute strength till I get around 1200-1300ppm on the waste water.

It is just so interesting how changing one thing in the op affects everything else. It's taken me many years for all the variables to gel in my mind. There is no instruction manual to really do this stuff great. People just need to get out and do it, make mistakes and see the results, and never be afraid to try new things. While I use a very basic growing style, it always keeps me interested. My latest curiosity is seeing the effects of various training techniques. Medical grows often require limitted plant numbers...but no limit on how big the plants can be. This, I believe, is where new innovation is needed. What is the best way to get maximum yield from each plant. This harvest will be around 6 - 8 ounces per plant. I am hoping to get that up to over a pound per plant. Anyone with new ideas is welcome to share here. Let's hear some innovative ideas.


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## Rollbluntz (Feb 19, 2011)

Nice setup man thanks for directin me here. I'll keep an eye on this one.


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## collective gardener (Feb 19, 2011)

We finally found a good HVAC supply house in our area. I bought a bunch of ducting fittings and ducting to get the lights setup for the coming smell. The original settup was a temp deal just to get us going. Now that we're a couple weeks away from major odor, I felt it time to get the lights drawing air from outside the room and increasing the cooling air flow while we're at it. 

I'm using 1 - 8" inline fan that's 745 cfm to exhaust every 6 lights. The system involves an 8" main line that tee's off into 6" lines connected to the lights. Each tee'd off 6" section will only service 2 lights. This way we avoid the heat build up that occurs when you daisy chain several lights in a row. We have about a 20 foot run to get to the fresh air that will supply the lights. I'm thinking of using a booster fan in that run. 

I hooked up the exhaust section yesterday and it works great. The light reflectors are just slightly warm to the touch. This is with them drawing air from the grow room. Once we route the supply air to the main warehouse, it should be even cooler. The warehouse is almost always cooler than the grow room.

We chose 8" because 10" only gives you about another 50cfm. It seems like the most bang for the buck is 8". When all is said and done, we'll have 3 inline exhaust fans and 3 inline booster fans cooling a total of 16 - 1000 watt lights. We will continue to use the 2 Adjust-a-Wings over the veg table for small plants. We also are trying to figure out how we want to set up an area for vertical hanging bare bulbs. We have a 12' x 8' area designated for some bare bulb tall plant growing. Any experience anyone has with this type of lighting would be great to hear about. I'm thinking we can hang around 6000 watts without running into a cooling problem. 


Section 1 of the new light cooling equipment. Since this pic was taken, I have fixed the obvious kink in the duct as it enters the exhaust fan. The 6" duct just hanging there is for the next pair of 1000 watt lights going in tomorrow.


Helper D doing what he does. As you can see, he likes to eat, too. The tiny plant in front of him is some un known strain that slipped into the 29 plants that my buddy gave us originally. Helper D wants it gone, but I want to see what it is. Who knows...could be some killer head stash. 

There's a little smell starting already. Even though we are just showing some hairs, it's noticable. I thought I'd have some more time. It looks like it's time to go drop a couple grand on carbon filters and fans. I would rather be buying and installing more lights. Oh well...security first. Damn.

Any ideas on that vertical bare bulb method for growing trees would be appreciated.


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## lochem (Feb 20, 2011)

this grow looks great and +subbed. really glad to have ppl like you sharing your knowledge and experience. 
Happy Growing


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## newstrainnewrules (Feb 20, 2011)

awesome set up collective everything is lookin awesome and your giving me some great ideas for my next setup, the dogs i could prolly help you out with as far as what training methods to use for them to keep your place secure


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## zem (Feb 20, 2011)

oooo great! awesome thread, it 's THE place to be! if it has good alarms, then thieves will not have time to chop everything down cuz alarm will set off at entry. but they will screw the grow and get you problems, try to show the place as secure, place cameras for the customers to see them clearly, place iron bars on outside of windows, thieves will avoid secure places, theyr looking for gaps.


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## collective gardener (Feb 20, 2011)

lochem said:


> this grow looks great and +subbed. really glad to have ppl like you sharing your knowledge and experience.
> Happy Growing


Thanks for the kind words. We're more than happy to share what we're doing. I know that most larger ops are pretty secretive and will not post. Maybe I should be too. But, we paid a lawyer alot of money to keep us legal, so what the hell. We also feel that small private collectives, like ours, are the wave of the future. Our op is truly within the letter and spirit of the law. We do not operate like a dispensary. There is no profit here. Growers are paid for their time, and recieve IRS 1099 forms at the end of the year. With this type of collective, our members can expect to pay less than $200/oz for top shelf medicine. They can also request specific strains be grown. It's their collective and they have rights in our bylaws. We're probably going to cap it at around 50 members.


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## collective gardener (Feb 20, 2011)

newstrainnewrules said:


> awesome set up collective everything is lookin awesome and your giving me some great ideas for my next setup, the dogs i could prolly help you out with as far as what training methods to use for them to keep your place secure


 
Ok...that Beavis picture is too disturbing. Damn, it's freaking me out. Look at all that head. 

Thanks for the dog training offer. I'm gonna take a pass. I wouldn't want them to be shot or stabbed or poisened (although I know we can train them not to take food from strangers). Honestly, I'd rather be ripped off than have a dog killed or badly injured. 

I'm glad we can inspire your next grow op. I'd be happy to go over with you via PM any specific things you'd like to discuss regarding your next op. There's a ton of considerations that I don't post here. Even though this is like my 10th 10 light+ op, there's still things I would have done different on this one if I did it over again. Just let me know what your goals are and I'll throw in my 2 cents.


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## collective gardener (Feb 20, 2011)

zem said:


> oooo great! awesome thread, it 's THE place to be! if it has good alarms, then thieves will not have time to chop everything down cuz alarm will set off at entry. but they will screw the grow and get you problems, try to show the place as secure, place cameras for the customers to see them clearly, place iron bars on outside of windows, thieves will avoid secure places, theyr looking for gaps.


Thanks. I like the idea of showing the place as secure. I have to balance that with not tipping my hand to the neighbors. Our cameras and motion detectors will be in plain sight. I also want a big ol' spot light to blast them if they tamper with the door. Just to let them know that they tripped something before they even gained entry. I'm hoping that will run them off. If, for some reason, they can get by the polar bear gate, there's now 4 more locked doors they have to breach before they are in the bloom room. That's gonna make noise, and my neighbor lives in his shop. He's old school armed and dangerous, doesn't like little theiving thugs, and doesn't care for any government agency much...including the Man.


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## Sr. Verde (Feb 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Thanks. I like the idea of showing the place as secure. I have to balance that with not tipping my hand to the neighbors. Our cameras and motion detectors will be in plain sight. I also want a big ol' spot light to blast them if they tamper with the door. Just to let them know that they tripped something before they even gained entry. I'm hoping that will run them off. If, for some reason, they can get by the polar bear gate, there's now 4 more locked doors they have to breach before they are in the bloom room. That's gonna make noise, and my neighbor lives in his shop. He's old school armed and dangerous, doesn't like little theiving thugs, and doesn't care for any government agency much...including the Man.


LOL hell yeah man sounds like you've got it good and covered

That's an _awful_ lot of trouble just to get some weed. 4 locked doors? And that huge gate?

Yeah I'm not seeing an axe get through that


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## whtrshn (Feb 20, 2011)

Really like this post and your build journal. Thank you for sharing. I am in the planing stages for a "legal commercial grow" . That 99 plant thing is hard. To recover costs and put out consistent good product for our members is tough as we have to allow for 'bad plants'. I like your less is better nute statement, works for me. Although some additives I have tried over the past few years have actually improved some of my yields, and c0'2 is overrated unless your room is sealed, and ours cannot be. Air, atmosphere is as important as the nutrients. Just wondering why did you not consider coco instead of soil? I've grown in hydro, which I love the best, and soil, and hydro (DWC) is too much of a pain with all the pumps and air on a large scale, so I've made the switch to all coco. Containers can be smaller and my plants still grow huge, I was amazed. Anyways, I am using some of your ducting and ac pics to help design our grow room. I will want to pm you on some other details. Keep up the posts and pics. I am thouroughly enjoying this, as this is my first reply to post after a year of being a lookyloo on the forum.


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## collective gardener (Feb 20, 2011)

whtrshn said:


> Really like this post and your build journal. Thank you for sharing. I am in the planing stages for a "legal commercial grow" . That 99 plant thing is hard. To recover costs and put out consistent good product for our members is tough as we have to allow for 'bad plants'. I like your less is better nute statement, works for me. Although some additives I have tried over the past few years have actually improved some of my yields, and c0'2 is overrated unless your room is sealed, and ours cannot be. Air, atmosphere is as important as the nutrients. Just wondering why did you not consider coco instead of soil? I've grown in hydro, which I love the best, and soil, and hydro (DWC) is too much of a pain with all the pumps and air on a large scale, so I've made the switch to all coco. Containers can be smaller and my plants still grow huge, I was amazed. Anyways, I am using some of your ducting and ac pics to help design our grow room. I will want to pm you on some other details. Keep up the posts and pics. I am thouroughly enjoying this, as this is my first reply to post after a year of being a lookyloo on the forum.


Your post is timley. I started using Sunshine #4 because I've been using it for over 20 years with great results. When coco became popular, I piucked up a bag to check it out. Well, it was this really bad coco...total dust. This turned me off to the stuff. So, last week, I'm checking out this new hydro store in my area. It turns out that this guy is the importer of all the coco for most every coco supplier you've ever heard of. He takes me into his 100,000 sq ft warehouse to show me. Holy Shit...he's got several hundred pallerts and a dozen shipping containers loaded with about 10 different types of coco. All in block form. He gives me a coco 101 lesson and I'm transfixed. He shows me his best coco blend in block form. It's a blend of fine and coarse coco. I take a block to the grow, wet it out, and start playing with it. This is the shit. It holds a butt-load of water, but drains super fast. When squezed, it releases its water and re-expands in your hand. My new Indian coco man (we call him Coco Puff Daddy) tells me that I probably won't even need to add perlite. I believe him. He also shows me a little trick for when using RO water. When we wet out the block, we do it with 500ppm of a cal/mag solution. Then we should flush it. Most of the ca and mg will bind with the coco and be available to the plant for a long time. I like this idea.

So, starting with the next batch of transplanting, we will be "Men of Coco", loyal customers of Coco Puff Daddy. It goes to show, the learning is never over with this level of growing. I'm a 20+ year vetran and am just now radically changing my soiless mix. It's one of the many reasons I love to do this. 

This should be a lesson to many people. There is some really bad products out there. Because the first coco I saw was a poor one, I wrote it off for many years. I still think Sunshine 4 is a fantastic product. I mean, shit, look at my plants. But, now I believe I have a product that breathes as good, holds way more water, doesn't become hydrophobic if it gets too dry, and is even better on the enviro. Oh, did I mention that I'm paying about 3 bucks/cu ft? I'll be buying is bulk, but who cares. It'll all get used and stores quite easily as blocks. 

I'd be happy to bounce some ideas around regarding your new op. I believe 99 plants can put out some serious product. As I have said before, this is the challenge for legal med grows. Currently, they have no laws here on plant size. Just how big can we get these things indoors? What is the best method for doing this? Is it to make em 4 feet in diameter and 3 feet high? Is it to make em 7 feet tall and use bare bulb side lighting hanging in the canopy? Old SOG and SCRG methods are not going to work here. I have found very little information on growing monsters indoors. Hell, I grew SOG for most of my life. I have had as many as 1700 plants going. I know how to do that. But, we're in new territory here.

I'm going to hang 5 or 6 bare bulbs amongst some un-topped plants to see what happens. I may even run one 1500 watt in a reflector way up high to add some overhead light to the mix. I just don't know what the best plant/light layout would be. Rows? Checkerboard?

Anyways, shoot me a pm and we'll talk more.


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## mrduke (Feb 20, 2011)

Vertical bulbs

Did you ever think of hanging two rows of lights may 2-3 lights in each row, then having rows of plants between the lights and on the sides
like this P being plants O being lights

P P P P P P
..O .O .O
P P P P P P
..O. O. O
P P P P P P

Of cousre you would have to rotate the two outer rows quit often but then again helper D needs more work LOL. Maybe even add a couple lights over the top on movers. I've found in verticle lighting you dont want the plants too tall, as the bulb only covers maybe 3 feet verticlly. It makes it hard to get good coverage without stacking bulbs on top each other. one thing i do know is that you get solid dense good quality bud top to bottom and It can really help yeilds if done properly.


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## collective gardener (Feb 20, 2011)

mrduke said:


> Vertical bulbs
> 
> Did you ever think of hanging two rows of lights may 2-3 lights in each row, then having rows of plants between the lights and on the sides
> like this P being plants O being lights
> ...


This is similar to what I have in mind. I like the idea of one light overhead to hit the tops. Was even considering a 1500 watt HPS mounted pretty high to cast a nice wide patch of light. A circular light mover is a good idea, too. With that, I could cover some area and the plants could still be close to the light when it passes over them. 

So, if the overhead light picked up the top 1.5 feet, and the verticals hit 3 feet like you say, we could light up about a 5 foot tall plants (bottom foot is useless). 

The only thing I don't like about the row design, is the wasted light directly between the bulbs. I'm going to cut out some little squares and circles out of paper and play with some shapes. I'm really looking for OVER 10oz/plant.

Thanks...keep thinking and report back.


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## Wolverine97 (Feb 20, 2011)

Collective Gardener:
The op looks awesome, I'm seriously jealous. One thing I notice when looking at your setup though, is that I think you're either going to have to add a lot more airflow between the veg and flower rooms if you've chosen to route your airflow that way. Either that, or you almost have to add co2 and an AC in there. Keep up the good work!


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## mr.smileyface (Feb 20, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTVYKNmk-uo
that will give you some ideas


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## mrduke (Feb 20, 2011)

If you want to see some vert light in action here's mine. i wanted to add a diamond shaped reflector inbetween the lights but never got around to it. I do really think if you had more room this would make for a effiecant grow style as thebuds are pretty uniform top to bottom. Mine is just a bit too small being only 10x7 and 7 feet tall 

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/391403-dukes-3000w-purple-stadium.html


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## collective gardener (Feb 20, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Collective Gardener:
> The op looks awesome, I'm seriously jealous. One thing I notice when looking at your setup though, is that I think you're either going to have to add a lot more airflow between the veg and flower rooms if you've chosen to route your airflow that way. Either that, or you almost have to add co2 and an AC in there. Keep up the good work!


Thanks! The current airflow between rooms is temporary. However, it's 4 x 6" ducts blowing enough air to part your hair. I'm going to seal the rooms after our first harvest and install a ductless 5 ton split AC unit and CO2. We just need to get through this first harvest on our existing capitol. I wanted to seal the room from the beginning, but we got the plants early and is was raining all hell, so roof work wasn't going to happen. Good eye on the air flow, though...it's probably the weak link.


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## collective gardener (Feb 20, 2011)

mr.smileyface said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTVYKNmk-uo
> that will give you some ideas


Thanks for the link. That's some settup. It seems like alot of the big ops are going this route. How far does it look like he has the lights spaced? 5 feet? I have to imagine the per sq ft yield is over 2 ozs with that settup. Those plants look like about 1 lb/plant. What do you think? If I could get that with 40 plants in bloom I would cream myself. Damn...my room is too small. LOL


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## collective gardener (Feb 20, 2011)

mrduke said:


> If you want to see some vert light in action here's mine. i wanted to add a diamond shaped reflector inbetween the lights but never got around to it. I do really think if you had more room this would make for a effiecant grow style as thebuds are pretty uniform top to bottom. Mine is just a bit too small being only 10x7 and 7 feet tall
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/391403-dukes-3000w-purple-stadium.html


 
Duke,

Very nice system. It's tight and clean. Love the heavy air flow for the lights, man. Makes the AC have an easy time of doing the rest. 

Unfortunately, the plants are too small for our op. Our goal is to fill our 24 foot x 16 foot flower room using only 45 plants. We vegetate another 45 in the veg room, and have 9 plants left over for trial plants, different strains, nutrient tests, and the like. 

What is your total yield in 1 cycle?

Thanks for sharing, and I'll be following your thread...it's great.


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## collective gardener (Feb 20, 2011)

Took the weekend off any construction on the room. Still takes me and Helper D 3 hrs/day just to water and tidy up. We are now using 50 gallons of water per day to water 30 big plants, 25 1 foot plants, and 40 clones. We need that 250 gallon tank tomorrow.


The leaves on the flowering plants are just huge. It's a shame that I have to cut some off to let the light down into the middle. I leave all the outer leaves on, and just remove the ones shading big tops.


This plant recieved one round of bending prior to going into flower. Some leaves have been removed.


This plant recieved 2 rounds of bending prior to flowering. Notice how much shorter and wider we got her. She has only been in bloom for a week, so the stretch hasn't happened yet. This is exactly the shape we were looking for. The pot is 10 gallons, but still needs at least one watering per day.


Check out the stock on this nasty girl. This is the biggest stock to height ratio I've ever pulled off. I'm really liking this one top and bend method. I used to top several times, but every topping stopped growth for a few days. I decided to try just topping once and then bending just short of breaking at every transplant. There is no growth slowing with bending. Also, you have total control over the shape of the plant. It is necessary, though, to remove some leaves. I hate doing it, but once you start manipulating the shape this much, it becomes necessary to keep most of the tops in the light stream.


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## adamhew77 (Feb 21, 2011)

I have a few leaves that size (8"-9") and they are just over 3 weeks from seed....lucky I guess.. they are being sexed right now..I have only one tent but I have put in a dark out curtain...from a friends hotel.. around them...the delima was I have 15 auto's running with them and had no other way to trigger flowering... I have to be here at 7am and 7pm to cover and uncover. Anyone ever done this...any idea of if this will work or not. In my opinion the light is 98% out during the sleep time for them( just a little on the edges) Is that enough to stress them and cause hermies? I am used to outdoors planting 100's in the woods of west Ga...newbie indoors...any ideas from anyone who would know ?


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## Luger187 (Feb 21, 2011)

this is all coming along pretty nicely collective. i was wondering about that pump/filter system u have for emptying out the runoff water. what kind of filter is it? im just curious

im talking with some friends about starting a big op soon. not as many plants as yours, but big nonetheless lol. i was thinking about that vertical bulb orientation that someone was talking about earlier in the thread. instead of having like 3 bulbs per row, what if u have one or 2 bulbs on light movers? i dont think ive seen a vertical bulb light mover that just goes back n forth along a row of plants. i guess u would need a lot of them though...


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## toquer (Feb 21, 2011)

Great setup man, read all 15 pages just now. I'm in the process of working excel magic to finalize my spreadsheet for my investor. Tomorrow we're looking at a warehouse and may be getting my funding!!

I still have 2 models, one in which we actually frame the rooms and build from the ground up...the other in which we use 10x20 grow tents to flower and swap meet canopy tents to veg inside of. The space has 22' ceilings and was a former machine shop. It has 400V onsite with a 300A panel. No AC system in the building however, the owner is open to us adding one and we're looking at covering the entire roof with solar panels.

The reason i'm still at a toss up on building vs just erecting tents is because of how quickly we can get a tent together...or apart for that matter.

We'll be running 4x1000W in each 10x10 area, venting lights with external shop air and running CO2 inside the grow environment.

If we build from scratch i can add A/C's all i like along the walls or get a central HVAC. But my big issue is that we don't own the building, thus constructing inside of it just doesn't seem logical. I agree with your time frame. Know when to get in, how long to stay, and where to go on the way out...

As far as security...the camera system hurts so much...all you can do is watch the video over and over and over again. We tried several things at last years residential grow. Finally after constructing a cage with chicken wire around most of the yard kept people out...that and the 95lb pit bull that was trained to attack anything that came over the wall.

neways...might just flip a coin and decide to build rooms or walk into tent city!!

cheers,

toquer


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## collective gardener (Feb 22, 2011)

adamhew77 said:


> I have a few leaves that size (8"-9") and they are just over 3 weeks from seed....lucky I guess.. they are being sexed right now..I have only one tent but I have put in a dark out curtain...from a friends hotel.. around them...the delima was I have 15 auto's running with them and had no other way to trigger flowering... I have to be here at 7am and 7pm to cover and uncover. Anyone ever done this...any idea of if this will work or not. In my opinion the light is 98% out during the sleep time for them( just a little on the edges) Is that enough to stress them and cause hermies? I am used to outdoors planting 100's in the woods of west Ga...newbie indoors...any ideas from anyone who would know ?


Adam, yeah, I've done the cover/uncover deal on several ops...indoor and out. What a commitment, it is. I carried this MONSTER in and out of my garage one summer to get a June harvest. It yielded alnost an lb. The great thing about that grow was that I had early samples to spread around. By the time my main harvest came in, it was all sold. I've had small light leaks without too many issues. Had one get a little hermie on me, but that particular mother was producing lots of hermies, light leaks or not. I tend to think you'll be ok. In my experience with light leaks, consistancy is the key. As long as it's the same basic leak with the same basic intensity every night, thet'll be fine.


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## collective gardener (Feb 22, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> this is all coming along pretty nicely collective. i was wondering about that pump/filter system u have for emptying out the runoff water. what kind of filter is it? im just curious
> 
> im talking with some friends about starting a big op soon. not as many plants as yours, but big nonetheless lol. i was thinking about that vertical bulb orientation that someone was talking about earlier in the thread. instead of having like 3 bulbs per row, what if u have one or 2 bulbs on light movers? i dont think ive seen a vertical bulb light mover that just goes back n forth along a row of plants. i guess u would need a lot of them though...


Good eye on the waste pump. It's a 12v marine pump mad for a fresh water system on a boat. The filter is a "raw water strainer" made to screen intake water on a boat...like for a wasdown pump. The strainer is great cause it's pretty coarse and easy to empty. The pump will self prime and is a diaphram pump that can tolerate some debris. It's a little too small, so we're gonna triple the size soon. I put in a 12v PWC AGM battery and a small battery charger to power the pump and any other 12v stuff we may want to add. I'm going to start using bilge pumps to water cause they move alot of water for a decent price and last FOREVER.

I'm digging your light mover idea on the vertical bulbs. This is the stuff I need to get my wheels turning on this settup. I'm thinking a rack that hold like 3 lights that move up and down the rows.I can't help but thinking that you'd still want one or 2 overhead lights just to really cook the tops. A 6 foot un-topped plant is going to have a huge main cola worthy of some serious light bombardment.


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## Luger187 (Feb 22, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Good eye on the waste pump. It's a 12v marine pump mad for a fresh water system on a boat. The filter is a "raw water strainer" made to screen intake water on a boat...like for a wasdown pump. The strainer is great cause it's pretty coarse and easy to empty. The pump will self prime and is a diaphram pump that can tolerate some debris. It's a little too small, so we're gonna triple the size soon. I put in a 12v PWC AGM battery and a small battery charger to power the pump and any other 12v stuff we may want to add. I'm going to start using bilge pumps to water cause they move alot of water for a decent price and last FOREVER.
> 
> I'm digging your light mover idea on the vertical bulbs. This is the stuff I need to get my wheels turning on this settup. I'm thinking a rack that hold like 3 lights that move up and down the rows.I can't help but thinking that you'd still want one or 2 overhead lights just to really cook the tops. A 6 foot un-topped plant is going to have a huge main cola worthy of some serious light bombardment.


oh my god i didnt even think of having a 3-light rack for the light mover. that would be EPIC. and i also think the overhead light would be needed for sure. without the overhead, i would think theyd kinda grow sideways and not the usual path


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## collective gardener (Feb 22, 2011)

toquer said:


> Great setup man, read all 15 pages just now. I'm in the process of working excel magic to finalize my spreadsheet for my investor. Tomorrow we're looking at a warehouse and may be getting my funding!!
> 
> I still have 2 models, one in which we actually frame the rooms and build from the ground up...the other in which we use 10x20 grow tents to flower and swap meet canopy tents to veg inside of. The space has 22' ceilings and was a former machine shop. It has 400V onsite with a 300A panel. No AC system in the building however, the owner is open to us adding one and we're looking at covering the entire roof with solar panels.
> 
> ...


Personally, I like to build the rooms. All of our framing and sheeting took me and Helper D 4 days. Both of us have serious construction backgrounds, and we're pretty tooled up. All of the framing was screwed together. I figure we could break the whole thing down in 2 days, using just screw guns.

Have you looked at the cost of solar? It's REALLY expensive, man. A 130 watt panel runs about $500.00. That works out to $5,000.00 to run each light. Each 1000 watt bloom light costs you about $600.00/year to run if you're paying 15 cents/kwh. To me, they just don't make financial sense.

Have you thought about how you're going to keep the atmosphere right in all of these tents? With framed construction, all you have to do is essentially dial in one bog room. I treat both rooms as one in respect to atmosphere and move alot of aire between them. You can then lower the humidity in your bloom room, if you like (I do), by adding a dehumidifier inside the room. 

Another consideration is what is it going to look like when you open up the roll up door? We open ours all the time, and all that is seen is a big wall of shelves. You can't tell with a casual glance that the shelves are actually a wall. 

Whatever way you go, you'll want to install at least one big fuck-all 2000+cfm exhaust fan in the main warehouse. This is essential. I've found that the bigger this fan is, the more options I have for cooling the grow room. Ours is currently 1500cfm (was here when we moved in), and I just ordered a 3500cfm fan from Grainger. Without this fan, the warehouse just gets hotter and hotter. Also, and even more problematic, the humididty gets really high...like 85%. 

Of course, all this is about to become a moot point. I'm sealing the room this spring. In an op this size, with so much at stake, a sealed room makes the most sense.


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## collective gardener (Feb 22, 2011)

I threw up a couple cheap wings so I could move 4 more plants into bloom today. I have 4 air cooled reflectors arriving any day now to replace the wings.


These 8 Bubba Kush plants are fully rooted and ready to go into some 5 gallon pots. As soon as we move some more plants into bloom, we'll have room for these on the Daylight Blue table.


These "Lavander" plants were put into the 5 gallon pots a little more than a week ago. They already have roots showing at the drain holes. These are the plants that I'm not going to top or bend. We're going to try the vertical bare bulbs on these.


The 4 plants that we moved into bloom today came from this area in veg. Now these girls have some more room. Tomorrolw, I'm going to tie them down some more to get em wider.


Top view of flowering plants. The wood spreaders on the lights help keep the lights straight against the pulling of the ducts and cords.


Another top view of the flower room.


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## toquer (Feb 22, 2011)

regarding the solar...were only doing it because of the rebates, tax incentives, and one of my investors sells the crap so it makes it financially viable. As far as atmosphere i'm thinking of using split A/C units for each tent as well as a dehumidifier inside as well. The ducting for the lights i've posted up in another post. I don't want to run my air cooled lights in series as it seems like a waste of everything, but running them each individually into an exhaust vent seems almost impossible unless i build and frame each room. I'm not as good as you and Helper D at construction...only been doing it a few years. Was a bank manager for the longest time...can't get back into the rat race...neways....
View attachment 1455870
that is what we're thinking of doing for lighting venting. Utilizing solid ducting run a 12" along the top corner/sides of each tent. One is open to the outside on both ends, the other is sealed on one side and has a 12" inline sucking 1140CFM. in theory this should allow for 570cfm coming through each pair of lights. Running insulated ducting should prevent radiating heat thus allowing the since split A/C to cool 600cuft. We'll be running CO2 so the need to have a sealed environment is key. is the 12" overkill? We'll be planning on expanding the 10x10 to a 10x20 within a few harvests and i'd rather just extend the length of my 12" intake to cover the entire 20' run. I may have the exhaust doubled so that each 4 lights is vented with 1 12" althought vortex does make a 12" with 2050cfms.

and for the roll up door. we won't use it at all. at least the one in the front. we've got an office entrance in the front and another roll up through the back. 

thanks for the info about exhausting the main warehouse...have to think about that now too!


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## adamhew77 (Feb 22, 2011)

-Thanks for the feed back ColectiveGardener, I really appreciate hearing from one with experience in commercial instead of the "smaller timers" just growing to smoke free. 

-Have you seen the growbot Toquer? my plan is to rent a warehouse and possibly buy a couple of the large shipping containers or even a Semi trailor.. (down the road) that way it is double secure and mobile in a few minutes with little to no disruption. For that matter an old moving truck or .... well you get my point. I used to cook meth( before I found God and changed my ways) I had 2 school buses hollowed and set up with ventilation, light and air tight and I did that for over 15 years "commercially" with out being discovered..... the same security measure and mobility could work out well .Just an idea. As far as temp and humidity control it would be isolated and easy to control with the right equipment. Plain and simple is how much do you want to spend.

-Another thing Collective, have you seen some of the vertical lighting set-ups on youtube? Dude you have got to see some of them...you get 360 degrees of your light..i am considering instead of crowding mine together under the light to surround the light with the plants. ....I have the cool tube so it would be easy to take the batwing off and just invert it. I will let you know how it works..I am gonna have to tilt them and do some bending and training but I feel it may be beneficial to optimizing my use of my lighting


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## toquer (Feb 22, 2011)

adamhew77, i took a look at those as well as a tow-n-grow. Really like the looks of those and can imagine walking into my warehouse with like 10 shipping containers. Would be such an awesome sight. and in the middle a 10x30 swap meet canopy as my veg station. Just power running to each individual unit ready to move in a moments notice if necessary. but i'm in Cali and this is all legal so it's not a matter of having to worry too much about moving. with the forcasted cash flow we'll have a downpayment on our own building by next year and then we can build and frame and do things just as we desire. actually i'd much rather purchase a greenhouse or build one. i'm an outdoor grower...loved my tree last year, she gave me 6lbs dried & cured and was fed maybe 100 bucks worth of guano, i had probably the same out in trim/shake and was set for...well i've got a small nug left and that's all she wrote!!


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## adamhew77 (Feb 22, 2011)

Toquer.. I too am in Cali(SB) and love the tents.. I am more stuck on the security and the tent-like convenience of multiple strains in multiple phases and multiple environments. I am not worried about local cops but the feds. since I got my recommendation and started going to dispensaries I have been to 4...2 of those have been raided and shut down by the Feds. So just some advice from a friend ..DONT GET TOO COMFORTABLE. Thieves are just as dangerous...so as you know loose lips sink ships. I am just getting started indoors. I am new to this but have grown outdoors for nearly 20 years. I hate the wait but love the yield of outdoors. I am also a guano user(outside) it is like freaking steroids lol. Like I said I am new indoors but loving it...I am running some auto's and believe it or not some reg/photo in the same tent . I am on day 30 and over a week ago I had leaves bigger than my hands..gotta love indoor hydro. they have just began to flower...though these autos put out an oz or 2 each they do it really fast. I will definitely be moving into probably half and half eventually but for now with my space restrictions I gotta do what I gotta do. Let me know how it works out.
I believe Collective is right we should all get together and sample each others stuff

Nice pics Collective they seem very uniform and healthy where did you get the seeds(or clone) from? Definitely good genetics there


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## mr.smileyface (Feb 22, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Thanks for the link. That's some settup. It seems like alot of the big ops are going this route. How far does it look like he has the lights spaced? 5 feet? I have to imagine the per sq ft yield is over 2 ozs with that settup. Those plants look like about 1 lb/plant. What do you think? If I could get that with 40 plants in bloom I would cream myself. Damn...my room is too small. LOL


Yea i dont like the hash plant strain. here is another link to a smaller one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fNHJcBx6co . bigger plants tho. Im pretty sure they were getting 2 a light. No waste of light just space. If you have enough space you dont need to worry about it.
We all have are ways of doing things. Just have to find out what works best for your place. 
You should have a charcoal filter,blower and a thermostat. Dehumidifiers. Sulpher burners. Intake vents or a intake fan? You have to control your climate. 
You should be buying 5 ton a/cs and co2 burners.
I only do sealed rooms. http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/node/8917 i learnt from the best
http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/articles/3268.html
http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/3368.html
Good luck with the show. I subbd to it so ill stay tuned.
Read those you might learn something.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Feb 22, 2011)

mr.smileyface said:


> Yea i dont like the hash plant strain. here is another link to a smaller one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fNHJcBx6co . bigger plants tho. Im pretty sure they were getting 2 a light. No waste of light just space. If you have enough space you dont need to worry about it.
> We all have are ways of doing things. Just have to find out what works best for your place.
> You should have a charcoal filter,blower and a thermostat. Dehumidifiers. Sulpher burners. Intake vents or a intake fan? You have to control your climate.
> You should be buying 5 ton a/cs and co2 burners.
> ...


+ rep for you sir, thanks for those articles lots of info in there, just wish they had more pictures of the rooms them selves


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## incognegro999 (Feb 22, 2011)

If you ever need a 5K capital infusion and someone to live in ur shop and work let me know haha. Thanks for letting us tag along on this amazing ride. The idea of being legal is amazing to me. I just read this whole thread. Subbed for sure +rep. please keep us posted


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## Luger187 (Feb 22, 2011)

mr.smileyface said:


> Yea i dont like the hash plant strain. here is another link to a smaller one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fNHJcBx6co . bigger plants tho. Im pretty sure they were getting 2 a light. No waste of light just space. If you have enough space you dont need to worry about it.
> We all have are ways of doing things. Just have to find out what works best for your place.
> You should have a charcoal filter,blower and a thermostat. Dehumidifiers. Sulpher burners. Intake vents or a intake fan? You have to control your climate.
> You should be buying 5 ton a/cs and co2 burners.
> ...


nice links. they were a good read. but they seem to be advertising AN products in every paragraph lol


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## mr.smileyface (Feb 22, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> nice links. they were a good read. but they seem to be advertising AN products in every paragraph lol


Not advertising just telling you whats up about them.
Did you like the test they did against GH
1.2 a light vs. 1.9 a light. same clones in the same room.
I have done 19 grows so far and use both.
I feed at 800 ppm connossuer plus additives (1100ppm) and the next watering i use a 1/4 gh 400ppm with no additives. That is considerd heavy feedings for one week
my co2 is 1800 tho and 30c under the lights


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## southside420 (Feb 22, 2011)

Any advice for us would-be collective startups?


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## collective gardener (Feb 22, 2011)

toquer said:


> adamhew77, i took a look at those as well as a tow-n-grow. Really like the looks of those and can imagine walking into my warehouse with like 10 shipping containers. Would be such an awesome sight. and in the middle a 10x30 swap meet canopy as my veg station. Just power running to each individual unit ready to move in a moments notice if necessary. but i'm in Cali and this is all legal so it's not a matter of having to worry too much about moving. with the forcasted cash flow we'll have a downpayment on our own building by next year and then we can build and frame and do things just as we desire. actually i'd much rather purchase a greenhouse or build one. i'm an outdoor grower...loved my tree last year, she gave me 6lbs dried & cured and was fed maybe 100 bucks worth of guano, i had probably the same out in trim/shake and was set for...well i've got a small nug left and that's all she wrote!!


Greenhouse grows are the way to go. Our next op will most likely be a greenhouse. My partner (money guy), just wants a tad more legality before incurring that kind of exposure. I have grown 2 greenhouse ops...one just ok, and one out of this world. I feel the key is 2 rooms with 100% light control and sup. lighting. My "out of this world" op was a light controlled settup, but just one room. We paired it up with a garage indoor settup. We did soiless, but I Built a 50 sq ft aeroponics rig in it for fun. Holy shit. Just holy shit. What folks need to understand is that to compete with high grade indoor meds, the greenhouse will probably cost more that the same size indoor op. You still need 100% climate control. Ever try and cool a 700 sq ft greenhouse in 100 degree weather? I'm talking 3 phase air conditioning to the tune of $20,000. And then there's the 24/7 security...


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## collective gardener (Feb 23, 2011)

adamhew77 said:


> Toquer.. I too am in Cali(SB) and love the tents.. I am more stuck on the security and the tent-like convenience of multiple strains in multiple phases and multiple environments. I am not worried about local cops but the feds. since I got my recommendation and started going to dispensaries I have been to 4...2 of those have been raided and shut down by the Feds. So just some advice from a friend ..DONT GET TOO COMFORTABLE. Thieves are just as dangerous...so as you know loose lips sink ships. I am just getting started indoors. I am new to this but have grown outdoors for nearly 20 years. I hate the wait but love the yield of outdoors. I am also a guano user(outside) it is like freaking steroids lol. Like I said I am new indoors but loving it...I am running some auto's and believe it or not some reg/photo in the same tent . I am on day 30 and over a week ago I had leaves bigger than my hands..gotta love indoor hydro. they have just began to flower...though these autos put out an oz or 2 each they do it really fast. I will definitely be moving into probably half and half eventually but for now with my space restrictions I gotta do what I gotta do. Let me know how it works out.
> I believe Collective is right we should all get together and sample each others stuff
> 
> Nice pics Collective they seem very uniform and healthy where did you get the seeds(or clone) from? Definitely good genetics there


The strain is a clone only local Bubba Kush. My friend was nice enough to lay 30 plants on me. Last year he turned down an offer of , well, more than you'd believe, for 1 rooted clone. There was no way I was going to go into this without the right plant to get things started. Lucky for us, we got just what we need.


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## collective gardener (Feb 23, 2011)

incognegro999 said:


> If you ever need a 5K capital infusion and someone to live in ur shop and work let me know haha. Thanks for letting us tag along on this amazing ride. The idea of being legal is amazing to me. I just read this whole thread. Subbed for sure +rep. please keep us posted


 
If that's you in the avatar save your money and I'll send a limo.


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## collective gardener (Feb 23, 2011)

southside420 said:


> Any advice for us would-be collective startups?


1. Become the best grower you can be.
2. Develope a plan for the best grow you can do.
3. Get a hold of the most money you can.
4. Hire an attorney.
5. Drop off the face of the earth and go to work.


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## Truth B Known (Feb 23, 2011)

i have a doctor rec for 99 mature plants and 19 lbs of processed cannabis.. thats the max limit prescribed in ca, just depends on which doctor you go to..


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## Truth B Known (Feb 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> If that's you in the avatar save your money and I'll send a limo.


lol, no doubt!


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## southside420 (Feb 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> 1. Become the best grower you can be.
> 2. Develope a plan for the best grow you can do.
> 3. Get a hold of the most money you can.
> 4. Hire an attorney.
> 5. Drop off the face of the earth and go to work.


Steps 1-4 complete....see you in Cali !!!


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## collective gardener (Feb 23, 2011)

Truth B Known said:


> i have a doctor rec for 99 mature plants and 19 lbs of processed cannabis.. thats the max limit prescribed in ca, just depends on which doctor you go to..


Yeah, Me and Helper D each have a 99/4lb. Dr Money Baggs (all hail our investor) has a 99/6lb. However, I would never max those out. We grow 99 plants total. As far as dried meds, that's the beauty of a perpetual. I doubt we will ever have more than 5 lbs at a time...and that gets distributed to the members as soon as it's dried.


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## Luger187 (Feb 23, 2011)

mr.smileyface said:


> Not advertising just telling you whats up about them.
> Did you like the test they did against GH
> 1.2 a light vs. 1.9 a light. same clones in the same room.
> I have done 19 grows so far and use both.
> ...


im just sayin.... the only info they give is 1.2 for the GH, and 1.9 with AN. WTF kind of test is that?!


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## collective gardener (Feb 23, 2011)

Southside...I forgot one thing:

Step 6: Donate as much medicine as your members can stand to terminal and gravely ill patients that can't afford their own. Nothing feels better than strolling down that hospitol hallway with your backpack trailing kush stink. "All patients...medication time".


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## Luger187 (Feb 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Southside...I forgot one thing:
> 
> Step 6: Donate as much medicine as your members can stand to terminal and gravely ill patients that can't afford their own. Nothing feels better than strolling down that hospitol hallway with your backpack trailing kush stink. "All patients...medication time".


i hope i get to do that someday


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## lochem (Feb 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Southside...I forgot one thing:
> 
> Step 6: Donate as much medicine as your members can stand to terminal and gravely ill patients that can't afford their own. Nothing feels better than strolling down that hospitol hallway with your backpack trailing kush stink. "All patients...medication time".


what a great feeling to be able to do that, wow. bigup


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## mr.smileyface (Feb 23, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> im just sayin.... the only info they give is 1.2 for the GH, and 1.9 with AN. WTF kind of test is that?!


Did u even read those links. Sensi bloom vs grow micro bloom gh
How much are you getting a per 1000w light? what do u use?
Im not trying to hate on GH either i use it in veg and early bloom. The higher nitrogen is needed early on when they are producing more leaf. It gives me more room to work when im feeding. 1-1-1 + additives is good for the start.
I use 1-1-1 untill week 3. Then i switch to connossuer and big bud, b52 ,budcandy. I go half strenght on all food additives. I prefer the food to be the base line.I use enzymes and voodoo juice aswell. gh Koolbloom is killer for smell and stickyness.
Why dont you read those links first. 
Did i make the test? Im sure everyone who uses AN wouldnt be ranting about it. Come on do you think they are lying when they tell you they get 2lbs a light?


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## collective gardener (Feb 23, 2011)

My dear friends. We're not there yet, but the thread is on the brink of taking a turn for the worst. Please, please, please...if we hit a stalemate in a discussion, let's just agree to disagree. We're approaching 200 replies with no insults or name calling or any other negative comments. It's sad to say that this is not the norm. I can't ( and wouldn't if I could) stop anyone from getting on a negative trip. Let's just do it for ourselves and our growing brothers and sisters. Thank you all very much. I enjoy all of your company.


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## collective gardener (Feb 23, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> i hope i get to do that someday


I do too, brother. And take some pictures of you and all the people that you have helped to blow up poster size. Frame them and hang them on the grow room walls. Let the man get a good look of that if you ever get raided.


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## collective gardener (Feb 23, 2011)

lochem said:


> what a great feeling to be able to do that, wow. bigup


 
Keep in mind, all...you can probably do it to some extent right now. Just one blunt to help someone going into chemo probably wouldn't break the bud bank.


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## lochem (Feb 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Keep in mind, all...you can probably do it to some extent right now. Just one blunt to help someone going into chemo probably wouldn't break the bud bank.


my nephew is in remission from leukemia (he is 7). a bit too young for the blunt, but my dad who is 62 and also in remission (from brain cancer) could definitely use the blunt. unfortunately we're not in the same country right now but i plan on visiting him in April and maybe then. altho he's not on chemo right now i know medicating would be great for him!


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## southside420 (Feb 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Keep in mind, all...you can probably do it to some extent right now. Just one blunt to help someone going into chemo probably wouldn't break the bud bank.


Very true, recently lost my mom to cancer and that was the only ting that helped her. Every treatment we would have a little session...


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## collective gardener (Feb 24, 2011)

lochem said:


> my nephew is in remission from leukemia (he is 7). a bit too young for the blunt, but my dad who is 62 and also in remission (from brain cancer) could definitely use the blunt. unfortunately we're not in the same country right now but i plan on visiting him in April and maybe then. altho he's not on chemo right now i know medicating would be great for him!


What can you say to this? Real life, man.


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## collective gardener (Feb 24, 2011)

southside420 said:


> Very true, recently lost my mom to cancer and that was the only ting that helped her. Every treatment we would have a little session...


Sorry for your loss. How many more stories like these need to be told before the Feds drop the politics and try being human beings for just a minute.


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## collective gardener (Feb 24, 2011)

These stories really hit home. I feel this overwhelming responsability to do my part to get some meds out there to people who need them. I believe that most growers would gladly donate some meds to sick and needy peeps if there was a venue to do so. This is a call to action. I'm going to find some of those people today. I'll need some help. 

I'm thinking we should identify facilities caring for very sick and needy people who benefit from cannabis and can't afford it. I will personally walk in the door and offer the medication. I'll have forms to join the collective with me. People...let's do this. If you help me find the people, I'll do the rest. Let's start with the 101 freeway corridoor from the 405 to Santa Barbara.

Any further ideas on this will be welcome. Let's brain storm together and see if we can develope a venue for growers and patients alike to offer meds without fear of being set up by the Man. Ideas, folks.


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## MoJobud (Feb 24, 2011)

Awesome thread and thanks for sharing. Couple things to consider when growing in a warehouse or any rented space other than a house is that you will have annual fire inspections. I just had mine during my construction of a room. Luckily it wasn't complete and they didn't seem to care about the walls going up but did mention if it was sealed ceiling that I would need to bring in a sprinkler. Just keep in mind that if you haven't had your inspection done, you will eventually.

I like your idea of keeping the frame screwed in vs nailed like how I did originally. I am now constructing my second room and will consider doing so for that. 

I don't know if you posted it already but do you mind telling me how much your electric bill is? Does your landlord know what you are doing in that space? Sounds like you and I are in a similar space/grow situation but mine is coming along a lot slower.


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## kings**t (Feb 24, 2011)

i am glad to see more people going big i am in the same boat as you i have two rooms 10 lamp and an 12 lamp set up very nice, just wondering why your in 5gal buckets when you could be in smartpots? and as for the drain problem your haveing why dont you get 4x8 trays and setup an drain? very easy ($142 for an abs 4x or you could custom make an tray too any who just trying to give you options.


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## Luger187 (Feb 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I do too, brother. And take some pictures of you and all the people that you have helped to blow up poster size. Frame them and hang them on the grow room walls. Let the man get a good look of that if you ever get raided.


that is a fantastic idea


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## lochem (Feb 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> These stories really hit home. I feel this overwhelming responsability to do my part to get some meds out there to people who need them. I believe that most growers would gladly donate some meds to sick and needy peeps if there was a venue to do so. This is a call to action. I'm going to find some of those people today. I'll need some help.
> 
> I'm thinking we should identify facilities caring for very sick and needy people who benefit from cannabis and can't afford it. I will personally walk in the door and offer the medication. I'll have forms to join the collective with me. People...let's do this. If you help me find the people, I'll do the rest. Let's start with the 101 freeway corridoor from the 405 to Santa Barbara.
> 
> Any further ideas on this will be welcome. Let's brain storm together and see if we can develope a venue for growers and patients alike to offer meds without fear of being set up by the Man. Ideas, folks.


I think I may be able to connect you with people in need and/or someone that would be possibly interested in helping. I'll let you know.


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## collective gardener (Feb 24, 2011)

MoJobud said:


> Awesome thread and thanks for sharing. Couple things to consider when growing in a warehouse or any rented space other than a house is that you will have annual fire inspections. I just had mine during my construction of a room. Luckily it wasn't complete and they didn't seem to care about the walls going up but did mention if it was sealed ceiling that I would need to bring in a sprinkler. Just keep in mind that if you haven't had your inspection done, you will eventually.
> 
> I like your idea of keeping the frame screwed in vs nailed like how I did originally. I am now constructing my second room and will consider doing so for that.
> 
> I don't know if you posted it already but do you mind telling me how much your electric bill is? Does your landlord know what you are doing in that space? Sounds like you and I are in a similar space/grow situation but mine is coming along a lot slower.


As far as the fire inspection, there are 2 ways to go.

1. Call for an inspection prior to any grow construction
Upside: Got a year or 2 with no worries
Downside: They know that the unit is occupied and who occupys it and they will be back or calling you.

2. Stay quite. Keep the doors down during the week. Low profile. Black out any storefront windows. Let the front get a little dusty.
Upside: As long as they never come by when you're coming or going, you never get inspected.
Downside: If they do come by while you're standing there with the door opened, you're fucked. I just say that I just work here and dont have access to the rest of the building. That buys you some time while you break down the grow...either for good, or for an inspection.

The landlord does not currently know, but knows of other grows in the complex and is cool with it as long as it's legit.
I haven't got my first big electric bill yet. I'm estimating around $1,500 with all lights cooking.


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## collective gardener (Feb 24, 2011)

kings**t said:


> i am glad to see more people going big i am in the same boat as you i have two rooms 10 lamp and an 12 lamp set up very nice, just wondering why your in 5gal buckets when you could be in smartpots? and as for the drain problem your haveing why dont you get 4x8 trays and setup an drain? very easy ($142 for an abs 4x or you could custom make an tray too any who just trying to give you options.


The 5 gallon pots are only crop #1. All the future crops are in 10 - 20 gallon pots. I prefer regular containers to smart pots. We move the plants around quite a bit, which makes constructing a drainage table like we have in the veg room a non-option. Also, I plan on growing some plants very tall with vertical bare bulb lighting. I'll need every bit of my 10' ceiling. A table would reduce my available height.

I have operated many grows with tables. When I was growing SOG and SCROG commercially, it worked well. Back then I had no plant limits, so I would grow a zillion small plants. In this brave new world of legal med growing, plant limits are a reality. Since there is no limit on just how big we can grow them, I'm going for getting them as big as I can. Ultimately, I want at least 1lb/plant. That size of plants and containers are grown on the floor.


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## collective gardener (Feb 24, 2011)

lochem said:


> I think I may be able to connect you with people in need and/or someone that would be possibly interested in helping. I'll let you know.


 
That would be great. If you know of any facilities that care for terminal and gravely ill folks in need of cannabis, I would love the name and maybe a contact. Thank you so much for helping out.


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## smokebros (Feb 24, 2011)

this shit right here! is 20,000 watts!


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## collective gardener (Feb 24, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> that is a fantastic idea


I'm proud to say that idea was all mine. It's letting the cops get a look at the witnesses that will be appearing at the trial. I'd like to see what jury would railroad a collective that gives away medicine to terminally ill patients.


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## incognegro999 (Feb 24, 2011)

smokebros said:


> this shit right here! is 20,000 watts!


"Kryptaronchronalite"


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## Gopedxr (Feb 24, 2011)

Helping the needy and sick and those who really really could use is really really awesome. Lot more sick people out there lot worst off then us then we actully think about day to day. Glad to see collective gardener your taking compassion to the next level. If there is something we can do down here in socal. Let it be heard.


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## collective gardener (Feb 25, 2011)

Gopedxr said:


> Helping the needy and sick and those who really really could use is really really awesome. Lot more sick people out there lot worst off then us then we actully think about day to day. Glad to see collective gardener your taking compassion to the next level. If there is something we can do down here in socal. Let it be heard.


I'm in so cal. I need locations and contacts. Basically, If some of you guys can direct me to needy patients with recs, I'll get them their medication. They would have to join our collective, of course, to keep it legal...one form, copy of license, copy of rec. 

*I want to be very clear:* My collective is looking for terminally, and/or gravely ill patients in need of medical marijuana, who cannot afford to pay for it. 
For now, we would like to limit ourselves to Los Angeles and Ventura Counties. 
Patients must have a valid doctor's recommendation for cannabis use.
Patients must join our collective to recieve their medication.
There is no cost to join our collective. 
For now, we will just have to take a patients word for it as far as innability to pay.
The amount of medication given away will depend on how much our collective has available. 

So, help me find these people. I am hoping to find a doctor or nurse who works in a facility caring for our ideal patient.


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## collective gardener (Feb 25, 2011)

smokebros said:


> this shit right here! is 20,000 watts!


 
I don't understand.


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## collective gardener (Feb 25, 2011)

incognegro999 said:


> "Kryptaronchronalite"


 
I don't understand this either.


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## MoJobud (Feb 25, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> As far as the fire inspection, there are 2 ways to go.
> 
> 1. Call for an inspection prior to any grow construction
> Upside: Got a year or 2 with no worries
> ...


Sounds good. I was told by the building management that if I didn't allow for the inspector to come in that I would have to pay out of my pocket for him to come back at another date within the month. I have 2 different businesses, one in a industrial warehouse and one in an office high riser and I can tell you that for insurance purposes for the building owner that annual fire sprinkler inspections are mandatory. So just giving you a heads up that if you haven't had your landlord tell you that someone is coming, they will this year. Who knows, they might have done one in Jan of this year so you can wait it out until next Jan of 2012.

BTW how is your noise control? For me it was the #1 priority to not have my neighbors even think that I did anything of this nature. Some warehouse spaces have poor insulation and its something that has slowed down the progress of my build. Having fans on 24/7 even dampened can piss off a neighbor to have them call the landlord.


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## southside420 (Feb 25, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I don't understand this either.


This is a reference to Kat Williams weed skit: [video=youtube;CSw75zU9lcE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSw75zU9lcE[/video]


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## southside420 (Feb 25, 2011)

MoJobud said:


> Sounds good. I was told by the building management that if I didn't allow for the inspector to come in that I would have to pay out of my pocket for him to come back at another date within the month. I have 2 different businesses, one in a industrial warehouse and one in an office high riser and I can tell you that for insurance purposes for the building owner that annual fire sprinkler inspections are mandatory. So just giving you a heads up that if you haven't had your landlord tell you that someone is coming, they will this year. Who knows, they might have done one in Jan of this year so you can wait it out until next Jan of 2012.
> 
> BTW how is your noise control? For me it was the #1 priority to not have my neighbors even think that I did anything of this nature. Some warehouse spaces have poor insulation and its something that has slowed down the progress of my build. Having fans on 24/7 even dampened can piss off a neighbor to have them call the landlord.


If the landlord knows what´s going on, what´s the problem? Hypothetically speaking, wouldn´t it be the same for the fir inspection, if it´s legal, what´s the big deal?


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## MoJobud (Feb 25, 2011)

southside420 said:


> If the landlord knows what´s going on, what´s the problem? Hypothetically speaking, wouldn´t it be the same for the fir inspection, if it´s legal, what´s the big deal?


If your landlord doesn't have a problem with it, then you really don't either to a degree. Just thought you would want to be discrete about what you are doing. Its all written and agreed upon on my lease what I can and cannot do in my space and I am sure what I am doing is voiding my lease by building a room such as yours without their approval and safety. Not trying to be a buzzkill, just pointing out that you will get inspected so be prepared. I am just glad that mine was mid construction of the room so it wasn't reported to the landlord what I was doing. I know what we are doing is legal in CA (I am in OC btw) but its still a fed crime. All you need is one guy who has some moronic view on medical MJ to be pissed off enough to get you shut down. Do you get what I am saying here? If its not a problem or a big deal, then why are we all still hiding like there is a witch hunt?


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## southside420 (Feb 25, 2011)

MoJobud said:


> If your landlord doesn't have a problem with it, then you really don't either to a degree. Just thought you would want to be discrete about what you are doing. Its all written and agreed upon on my lease what I can and cannot do in my space and I am sure what I am doing is voiding my lease by building a room such as yours without their approval and safety. Not trying to be a buzzkill, just pointing out that you will get inspected so be prepared. I am just glad that mine was mid construction of the room so it wasn't reported to the landlord what I was doing. I know what we are doing is legal in CA (I am in OC btw) but its still a fed crime. All you need is one guy who has some moronic view on medical MJ to be pissed off enough to get you shut down. Do you get what I am saying here? If its not a problem or a big deal, then why are we all still hiding like there is a witch hunt?


Yeah I hear ya. I am heading out there next week to try to do the same thing so i´m in the information gathering phase now. I figured I would just find a landlord that is cool with it and stay legal. But i see your point, less people that know the better, even if it is legal... Would it be easier to just grow the 99 plants in a house where they can´t come in? Just rent a big house with a cool landlord , pay a few months in advance and go for it. Would definitely be better security as you´re going to be there watching the crop


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## collective gardener (Feb 26, 2011)

I guess I've been pretty lucky in my last several warehouse grows. I have never had a problem with having to deal with an inspection.

My current location is, by far, the best yet. I know of at least 3 other grow ops in our complex. My source for the original plants has been operating a 40 light flip here for over 3 years without an inspection. My guess is that it depends on the landlord. I can see if there was some hyper-vigilant property manager in charge, things could become a problem. But, believe me, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of warehouse ops in California. 99% of these could not endure a fire inspection without some major problems. Yet, they operate year after year. 

I have spoken with several (10 or 11) of my neighbors on the fire inspection issue. I have concluded that, in my complex, the businesses that that applied for a business license in that address were contacted by the fire department to schedule an inspection. The businesses that either did not get a license, or got the license in a different address were not contacted. 
The fire marshall does drive around and do random inspections. That is how many of my neighbors who did not get local business licenses got inspected. A few have never been inspected at all.

I should also note that one neighbor moved in 2001, was contacted for an inspection in 2005, and hasn't heard from them since. He is always there with the door wide open. My next door neighbor lives in his unit (a big no no), and has been avoiding any suprise inspections for 7 years by just keeping a low profile Mon-Fri during business hours.

As far as being legal. Yes...we are legal. BUT, I will not let an inspection happen. If it came down to it, I'd load em up in moving vans and break down the room for the inspection. VERY few grow rooms would pass an inspection. Unless you go through the trouble to fire sprinkler the room, pull a permit for the electrical, have a licensed electrical contractor install the electrical, and some other shit that I have forgot about, your room won't pass. Also, count on law enforcement being contacted. NOBODY in their right mind will endure this if it's, in any way, avoidable. The legal landscape just isn't quite there yet. In my county, they like to confiscate the gear and tell you that if you go away, they won't file charges. Would we win in a trial? Absolutely. Could we sue and get our gear back with damages? Most likely. Would we go through all that? Nope. And they know it.

Bottom line on this op: Please don't worry about us. This isn't my first rodeo, and I've done my homework on this location. There is still risk in medical marijuana. Hopefully some day...

Bottom line on your grow ops: Do your homework on the location. If an annual inspection is part of the deal, go somewhere else. Newer complexes in upscale neighborhoods should be stayed away from. Huge complexes are also bad. Talk to the neighbors prior to moving in. Tell them you do some spraying once in a great while that california doesn't like. Most business owners will be on your side. Ask about inspections. Most business owners don't like them any more than you do.

As far as why not rent a house. One reason: The power isn't there. If it weren't for that, a house would be the way to go. The most I've ever run in a house is 6000 watts. That's less than a third of what we are doing now, and I'm thinking we'll be running closer to 24k by the end of the year. I like larger ops. We're hoping to be in the right position for when this thing gets truly legal and we can be loud and proud. I feel that anyone not already operating a medium-large op when this happens, will have a hard time catching up to the pack.


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## cornstar (Feb 26, 2011)

southside420 said:


> This is a reference to Kat Williams weed skit: [video=youtube;CSw75zU9lcE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSw75zU9lcE[/video]


 how hes so funny hahaha cat williams is the man


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## collective gardener (Feb 26, 2011)

southside420 said:


> This is a reference to Kat Williams weed skit: [video=youtube;CSw75zU9lcE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSw75zU9lcE[/video]


Thanks, man. That was great.


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## adamic (Feb 26, 2011)

LMAO thanks


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## collective gardener (Feb 26, 2011)

Gang...Where's my sick people???


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## SCCA (Feb 26, 2011)

Man wish i could help you with that, if you were up here i could point you to a couple places. but i don't really know anyone in your area. i love your attitude about donating medicine. really, thats what being a grower is all about. Its so satisfying to hand someone something that will improve their life, even if only for a short while, that they otherwise would have to do without because they can barely afford the treatments that are keeping them alive. you may want to try to organize website explaining who you are and how you want to help. hand out business cards with the web address, have a way for people to apply for your meds. give the cards to doctors or if you can give a few to the receptionist at the desk, they know who the patients in need are. i don't know what the dispensaries are like down there but maybe talk to them.


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## collective gardener (Feb 26, 2011)

SCCA said:


> Man wish i could help you with that, if you were up here i could point you to a couple places. but i don't really know anyone in your area. i love your attitude about donating medicine. really, thats what being a grower is all about. Its so satisfying to hand someone something that will improve their life, even if only for a short while, that they otherwise would have to do without because they can barely afford the treatments that are keeping them alive. you may want to try to organize website explaining who you are and how you want to help. hand out business cards with the web address, have a way for people to apply for your meds. give the cards to doctors or if you can give a few to the receptionist at the desk, they know who the patients in need are. i don't know what the dispensaries are like down there but maybe talk to them.


Thank you so much for your enthusiasm and brain storming. All of us walk such a fine line here when it comes to any form of advertising (web site, bus cards, etc...). My county has an unwritten policy that if you don't advertise, they will leave you alone. If you do advertise, they will destroy your life. It just happened to a 600 patient collective earlier this month. They had a very nice website and business cards. All of their paperwork seemed in order. The head honcho has been growing for 30+ years, has lawyers on retainer, and is extremely diligent with security and legal compliance. YET, at 4pm a few weeks ago one of the grow's workers locked up and got into his car. The cops swooped on him, took his keys, let themselves in, arrested him, and took all the gear. All of this without a warrant. I spoke with the collective's president for 2 hours yesterday and he has no idea what happened. The preliminary hearing for the worker is this Tue. Ironically, the collective's president spoke with the arresting officer and it appears they aren't charging the collective. WTF?

Now, what does this have to do with giving away meds? Only that I don't feel comfortable advertising my collective, even if it's only to offer free medicine for those in dire need. I just can't even believe what a cluster fuck this whole thing is. Basically, we're tolerated if we keep our heads down. But, if we want to help sick people...really sick people...we have to do so in a covert fashion.

It also seems as if the various so cal law enforcement agencies have targeted grow operations more so than dispensaries. There was a series of raids a while back that involved police taking over several collectives, and busting the vendors as they delivered the meds. No one in the collective was arrested and they left their meds there, but they hauled off a bunch of growers. WTF?

Anyways, the name of the busted collective was CannaCut. And news of this has caused me a great deal of stress. I can only think that they got a little big and loud, involved too many people, and attracted the attention of the wrong cop. It looks like we're not out of the woods yet.

I still want to get some free meds into the hands of needy folks. We could use some help in locating the needy, and figuring out the safest way to get the meds to them. If I know that they are legit, I can just have them join the collective and go from there.


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## southside420 (Feb 26, 2011)

That´s pretty out of hand. I have heard some horror stories about LAPD but damn... I have been researching legal cases where the police have actually been ordered to give back the goods. For somebody from FL that sounds pretty crazy, I would think that the city has got to get these guys in check before it costs them millions. There a bunch of pending lawsuits against them already from what my atorney tells me.


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## SCCA (Feb 26, 2011)

I totally know how you feel, gardener, it gets very frustrating trying to figure out what the leos are going to find an issue with next. If they arent charging the collective with anything are they going to charge the worker with cultivation of all the plants? Whenever i see interviews with sheriffs and camp agents they always talk about how its "like the wild west out here" yet they treat people trying to do the right thing like criminals. i have heard too many stories of plants being chopped and left or places being broken into and all the gear destroyed. rippers wouldn't just chop and leave plants or destroy valuable equipment.


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## collective gardener (Feb 26, 2011)

southside420 said:


> That´s pretty out of hand. I have heard some horror stories about LAPD but damn... I have been researching legal cases where the police have actually been ordered to give back the goods. For somebody from FL that sounds pretty crazy, I would think that the city has got to get these guys in check before it costs them millions. There a bunch of pending lawsuits against them already from what my atorney tells me.


There's about to be another lawsuit against Ventura PD. The President of CannCut told me yesterday that they're trying to push through a speedy trial for his worker so that they can sue the pants off of Ventura PD. In addition to the 160 live plants and grow gear, the Man took 30lbs of dried medicine. I would think that with money being as tight as it is, these police departments would think twice before cowboying through a legal grow op because they feel like it.

My lawyer told me an interesting story about how a year ago Ventura PD stuck their foot in their mouth. An officer was testifying against a collective grow operator. He was trying to make it look as if this collective was making massive profits from it's grow op. The DA asked what the street value was of an average pot plant when mature, dried, and packaged. The officer calculated that each plant could yield 1 pound, and that, when sold an 1/8th at a time, that pound would cost $6,400 ($50 per 1/8th).
Fast forward 6 months. Ventura PD unlawfully seized and destroyed 12 small plants from a husband and wife personal medical grow. The court declared that Ventura PD would have to reimburse the husband and wife for the value of the 12 plants. The lawyer for the husband and wife produced the testimony from the Ventura PD officer in the other case, stating that a plant was worth $6,400. Ventura PD had to pay the husband and wife $76,800 for the 12 small plants!
The Ventura County DA no longer puts officers on the stand as "experts" in marijuana cultivation.


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## collective gardener (Feb 26, 2011)

SCCA said:


> I totally know how you feel, gardener, it gets very frustrating trying to figure out what the leos are going to find an issue with next. If they arent charging the collective with anything are they going to charge the worker with cultivation of all the plants? Whenever i see interviews with sheriffs and camp agents they always talk about how its "like the wild west out here" yet they treat people trying to do the right thing like criminals. i have heard too many stories of plants being chopped and left or places being broken into and all the gear destroyed. rippers wouldn't just chop and leave plants or destroy valuable equipment.


 
Some of these guys just have it in their mind that pot is a drug, drugs are bad, and it's their job to cleanse the planet of this devil weed.


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## xxRolandxx (Feb 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Some of these guys just have it in their mind that pot is a drug, drugs are bad, and it's their job to cleanse the planet of this devil weed.


I couldnt resist...

[video=youtube;VCDnR6Px-co]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCDnR6Px-co[/video]


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## Wolverine97 (Feb 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> There's about to be another lawsuit against Ventura PD. The President of CannCut told me yesterday that they're trying to push through a speedy trial for his worker so that they can sue the pants off of Ventura PD. In addition to the 160 live plants and grow gear, the Man took 30lbs of dried medicine. I would think that with money being as tight as it is, these police departments would think twice before cowboying through a legal grow op because they feel like it.
> 
> My lawyer told me an interesting story about how a year ago Ventura PD stuck their foot in their mouth. An officer was testifying against a collective grow operator. He was trying to make it look as if this collective was making massive profits from it's grow op. The DA asked what the street value was of an average pot plant when mature, dried, and packaged. The officer calculated that each plant could yield 1 pound, and that, when sold an 1/8th at a time, that pound would cost $6,400 ($50 per 1/8th).
> Fast forward 6 months. Ventura PD unlawfully seized and destroyed 12 small plants from a husband and wife personal medical grow. The court declared that Ventura PD would have to reimburse the husband and wife for the value of the 12 plants. The lawyer for the husband and wife produced the testimony from the Ventura PD officer in the other case, stating that a plant was worth $6,400. Ventura PD had to pay the husband and wife $76,800 for the 12 small plants!
> The Ventura County DA no longer puts officers on the stand as "experts" in marijuana cultivation.


Sweet, karmic justice at work ladies and gentlemen...


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## mrduke (Feb 27, 2011)

CG you are truely an insperation. From a little guy who start growing just to help my wife and I, that now has 4000w and a few years of experiance. I can only imagine what its like to be in your shoes. I know the feeling of donating to the local dispesary is awsome and it really helps cover the expenses, but the pure joy you most get from seeing peoples face when you hand them a bag of meds......priceless. keep up the good work


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## adamhew77 (Feb 27, 2011)

Hey man I feel you on the co-op take downs ..Santa Barbara is a feeding frenzy for the feds and local drug enforcement. The collectives I have bought from have been completely compliant from what this one owner told me.....but they took all of his stuff and shut down 2 dispensaries of his. I believe if you are too big doing too much the cops get jealous of the "easy" money that they think we are making. It's really fun but as ya'll all know alot of work. They believe we are getting rich on drug $ and they want to tear us down because of their own inequities and personal financial struggles..IMO. kinda like if I cant live comfortably then these"dope dealers" wont eaither...Why dont they go take down a Wallgreens or a CVS or bother those medicine providers...It's all a bunch of BS if you ask me. We need Federal Decriminalization and that's the only way to muffle this backdraft of pigs rushing in...it wont stop it...they will still raid and rob to some degree especially those who are slipping but for the most part they will have to then leave us legal folks alone. I actually have a contract from the collective I am growing for...keeping me below 1000 plants is all I have to worry about supposedly...but I will still be very incognito and never get too comfortable doing this..those are the ones getting taken down...the ones that are like CG said BigTime and in their face


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## adamhew77 (Feb 27, 2011)

Drugs are bad mmkay


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## collective gardener (Feb 27, 2011)

mrduke said:


> CG you are truely an insperation. From a little guy who start growing just to help my wife and I, that now has 4000w and a few years of experiance. I can only imagine what its like to be in your shoes. I know the feeling of donating to the local dispesary is awsome and it really helps cover the expenses, but the pure joy you most get from seeing peoples face when you hand them a bag of meds......priceless. keep up the good work


That's great that you were able to help your wife. Many people don't realize the satisfaction of healing our family and friends with our own bare hands. Society is so caught up in feeling helpless and totally dependant on others to take care of our needs. You were able to cast off the bonds of helplessness and _take care of your family. _Is there anything in life more natural? Yet, this government does not tolerate such behavior. And, god forbid you take it a step further and help others outside your family. Now you're a real threat.

The people of the State of California have spoken. It is ok to use marijuana to treat illness. It is ok to collectively grow marijuana to treat illlness. It is ok to be paid a fair wage for time spent growing marijuana for a collective. It is ok to charge members of the collective a price for the meds that covers the cost of growing them. So, what seems to be the problem? 

It would seem to me that if a collective is under investigation for possibly generating a profit, there would be a simple audit. The collective should be allowed to continue operations during the audit. If the audit finds that there is a profit, I can see some sort of fine and/or some sort of reimbursement to it's members for the over charge. If the collective keeps doing it and the profit is significant, there should be harsher penalties. Why don't they just issue us permits and revoke them if we don't play by the rules. How hard is that? Give us a chance to be normal businesses. I believe that most grow operators would be fine with this. Shit, just give me a set of rules to play by and I'll play. As long as the government knows that the harsher the rules, the more likelyhood that black market operators will have an advantage over compliant operators, empowering them into market domination.


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## collective gardener (Feb 27, 2011)

adamhew77 said:


> Hey man I feel you on the co-op take downs ..Santa Barbara is a feeding frenzy for the feds and local drug enforcement. The collectives I have bought from have been completely compliant from what this one owner told me.....but they took all of his stuff and shut down 2 dispensaries of his. I believe if you are too big doing too much the cops get jealous of the "easy" money that they think we are making. It's really fun but as ya'll all know alot of work. They believe we are getting rich on drug $ and they want to tear us down because of their own inequities and personal financial struggles..IMO. kinda like if I cant live comfortably then these"dope dealers" wont eaither...Why dont they go take down a Wallgreens or a CVS or bother those medicine providers...It's all a bunch of BS if you ask me. We need Federal Decriminalization and that's the only way to muffle this backdraft of pigs rushing in...it wont stop it...they will still raid and rob to some degree especially those who are slipping but for the most part they will have to then leave us legal folks alone. I actually have a contract from the collective I am growing for...keeping me below 1000 plants is all I have to worry about supposedly...but I will still be very incognito and never get too comfortable doing this..those are the ones getting taken down...the ones that are like CG said BigTime and in their face


What do you mean "those are the ones getting taken down...the ones that are like CG said BigTime and in their face"?


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## Luger187 (Feb 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> There's about to be another lawsuit against Ventura PD. The President of CannCut told me yesterday that they're trying to push through a speedy trial for his worker so that they can sue the pants off of Ventura PD. In addition to the 160 live plants and grow gear, the Man took 30lbs of dried medicine. I would think that with money being as tight as it is, these police departments would think twice before cowboying through a legal grow op because they feel like it.
> 
> My lawyer told me an interesting story about how a year ago Ventura PD stuck their foot in their mouth. An officer was testifying against a collective grow operator. He was trying to make it look as if this collective was making massive profits from it's grow op. The DA asked what the street value was of an average pot plant when mature, dried, and packaged. The officer calculated that each plant could yield 1 pound, and that, when sold an 1/8th at a time, that pound would cost $6,400 ($50 per 1/8th).
> Fast forward 6 months. Ventura PD unlawfully seized and destroyed 12 small plants from a husband and wife personal medical grow. The court declared that Ventura PD would have to reimburse the husband and wife for the value of the 12 plants. The lawyer for the husband and wife produced the testimony from the Ventura PD officer in the other case, stating that a plant was worth $6,400. Ventura PD had to pay the husband and wife $76,800 for the 12 small plants!
> The Ventura County DA no longer puts officers on the stand as "experts" in marijuana cultivation.


LOL i bet that cops face was red at work the next day...

collective, there is a dispensary not far from my house that gives away edibles to terminally ill patients. ive been talking to the cook that makes the edibles, and he actually wanted to buy 10 or 20 pounds of trim off a friend of mine. hes a really cool guy. im sure he would be down to work with u. hes in OC though. send me a PM if u want the info


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## incognegro999 (Feb 27, 2011)

Hey CG I am ignorant of California laws regarding MM from your post I take it that you cannot make a profit on it. Is investing money back in the op considered a profit? Like just a for instance the price is five dollars more this grow per whatever so we can add a couple new lights and C02? There is always room for improvement and I imagine people wouldnt mind a couple extra dollars to improve quality/quantity. Just curious thanks


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## collective gardener (Feb 27, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> LOL i bet that cops face was red at work the next day...
> 
> collective, there is a dispensary not far from my house that gives away edibles to terminally ill patients. ive been talking to the cook that makes the edibles, and he actually wanted to buy 10 or 20 pounds of trim off a friend of mine. hes a really cool guy. im sure he would be down to work with u. hes in OC though. send me a PM if u want the info


Thank you for getting involved. I'd like the info, however, we're trying to #1 deal directly with patients and #2 work locally. I'm sure, however, that we could donate some trim so long as the trim we donate goes to the patients without charge. Thanks again.


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## collective gardener (Feb 27, 2011)

incognegro999 said:


> Hey CG I am ignorant of California laws regarding MM from your post I take it that you cannot make a profit on it. Is investing money back in the op considered a profit? Like just a for instance the price is five dollars more this grow per whatever so we can add a couple new lights and C02? There is always room for improvement and I imagine people wouldnt mind a couple extra dollars to improve quality/quantity. Just curious thanks


 
The answer is yes. The end user price per whatever is based on the costs of producing whatever. Inour case, we took out a loan to build the grow and operate for the first few months. Our price/whatever will be based on the labor, lease, electricity, insurance, and loan payments for the period of time necessary to produce whatever. Once the loan is payed off, that line item would be removed from the costs and the price would go down for the medication. Make sense?

Now, since some costs may not be available (electricity) at the time of product sales, an estimate is put in the line item. Then, at the end of the year, we balance the books by cutting a check (or product) to all of the collective members based on any over payment. We always hedge on the high side for any estimates so that we don't have to go to the members and ask for additional money. We also round off a little for the sake of easy accounting. 

In short, we estimate the costs throughout the year, and at years end, we can establish an exact per unit cost right down to the penny. We then look at how much each member spent per unit and how many units that member purchased. Then, an adjustment is made. Example: A member purchased 10 ozs at $200/oz. At year end we determine that our per/oz cost is $190. That member would get either $100, or a little more than a 1/2oz of product.

I hope this helps. 

This is why any dispensary charging different prices based on quantity is actually breaking the law. The price is the price...whether the member is buying an 1/8th at a time or an Oz at a time. The price of an ounce should be 8 times the price of an 1/8th. You could argue that more transactions cost more money, but that would be a very small number, way less than the premium most places charge for buying a small quantity. 

This stuff was the first thing our lawyer taught us. He also said most places do not play by these rules and are therefore just waiting to be busted by a sharp DA.


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## Wolverine97 (Feb 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> The answer is yes. The end user price per whatever is based on the costs of producing whatever. Inour case, we took out a loan to build the grow and operate for the first few months. Our price/whatever will be based on the labor, lease, electricity, insurance, and loan payments for the period of time necessary to produce whatever. Once the loan is payed off, that line item would be removed from the costs and the price would go down for the medication. Make sense?
> 
> Now, since some costs may not be available (electricity) at the time of product sales, an estimate is put in the line item. Then, at the end of the year, we balance the books by cutting a check (or product) to all of the collective members based on any over payment. We always hedge on the high side for any estimates so that we don't have to go to the members and ask for additional money. We also round off a little for the sake of easy accounting.
> 
> ...


Regarding different prices for smaller quantities, the thing that I see that is missing from the equation is the increased handling costs (minimal though they may be). You have more people coming through the door, more packaging to go through, more time involved for the same amount of product. I can see charging a little bit of a premium, but it should be limited to a ballpark of the actual increased cost of doing that business.


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## collective gardener (Feb 28, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Regarding different prices for smaller quantities, the thing that I see that is missing from the equation is the increased handling costs (minimal though they may be). You have more people coming through the door, more packaging to go through, more time involved for the same amount of product. I can see charging a little bit of a premium, but it should be limited to a ballpark of the actual increased cost of doing that business.


I don't want to beat a dead horse, but that's what I meant above when I said ""You could argue that more transactions cost more money, but that would be a very small number, way less than the premium most places charge for buying a small quantity." 

Now, how dispensaries do business is just that; their business. I would just advise any newcomers into this industry to track their costs carefully. I spent a good deal of my adult life as a senior project manager for a large construction company that did lots of cost plus work. Unfortunately, that meant considerable time in arbitration fighting for our money. Through this I learned one basic rule: If you can document a cost, you got paid for it...if you couldn't, you didn't get paid for it. This business is no different...just different outcomes. If you can document that all of the money you took in was the same as your costs, your collective is operating legally. If not, you may have some legal problems.


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## parabear (Feb 28, 2011)

BiteSizeFreak said:


> If I owned hell and Cali, I'd rent out Cali and live in hell. lol  Seriously though, can't stand the place. Aside from the pretty girls and good weed laws I find nothing else redeeming about the state. I usually don't bring it up for obvious reasons lol
> 
> Anyway, I'll just kinda piece out here for a little while or this whole thread will get jacked by people mad that I don't like Cali
> 
> PS: Oh yeah, good wine too!


Hey don't worry, I used to live in Cali, within walking distance of a whole crapload of awesome dispensaries, and everything... that was about the only upside, because everything else was a major PITA... the traffic, the people, the amount of spanish anymore... I smoke pot, I don't habla the espanol.... 'nough said....

Now I live elsewhere, and have to grow my own under their respectable laws... just no dispensaries.... at least I have a variety of good strains of feminized seeds.... man I do miss picking up clones for $4 each these days... used to trade out hash for the money to buy enough clones to run a mini SOG setup, though I did clone of kick ass purple kush that was the uber shit!


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## parabear (Feb 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> The answer is yes. The end user price per whatever is based on the costs of producing whatever. Inour case, we took out a loan to build the grow and operate for the first few months. Our price/whatever will be based on the labor, lease, electricity, insurance, and loan payments for the period of time necessary to produce whatever. Once the loan is payed off, that line item would be removed from the costs and the price would go down for the medication. Make sense?
> 
> Now, since some costs may not be available (electricity) at the time of product sales, an estimate is put in the line item. Then, at the end of the year, we balance the books by cutting a check (or product) to all of the collective members based on any over payment. We always hedge on the high side for any estimates so that we don't have to go to the members and ask for additional money. We also round off a little for the sake of easy accounting.
> 
> ...


Great, tell them now... lol... now they probably will get busted, and everyone harassed!!! j/k... I hope...

You have to have the members the opportunity to 'be active members' which usually includes 'member meetings.... attendance not required' and other BS little hoops you gotta jump through. This is why there is also the non-business front co-op, that is strictly growing, everyone has paperwork, etc. but without any monetary transactions whatsoever, except privately owned equipment that is dual use, or personally donated equipment, thus completely avoiding the monetary exchange. This makes it much much easier for everyone to get together to grow a lot of pot... especially if you know one who really knows how to grow and only needs equipment, you and a few buddies get together, do the paperwork, pay any applicable fees, start a NFP that does not conduct any monetary transactions, and get it reg'd as a co-op. Heard that it makes it all easier, and also a good way to just get a shitload of return for your investment.


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## Wolverine97 (Feb 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I don't want to beat a dead horse, but that's what I meant above when I said ""You could argue that more transactions cost more money, but that would be a very small number, way less than the premium most places charge for buying a small quantity."
> 
> Now, how dispensaries do business is just that; their business. I would just advise any newcomers into this industry to track their costs carefully. I spent a good deal of my adult life as a senior project manager for a large construction company that did lots of cost plus work. Unfortunately, that meant considerable time in arbitration fighting for our money. Through this I learned one basic rule: If you can document a cost, you got paid for it...if you couldn't, you didn't get paid for it. This business is no different...just different outcomes. If you can document that all of the money you took in was the same as your costs, your collective is operating legally. If not, you may have some legal problems.


Sorry, I must've missed it when you said that.


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## collective gardener (Feb 28, 2011)

parabear said:


> Great, tell them now... lol... now they probably will get busted, and everyone harassed!!! j/k... I hope...
> 
> You have to have the members the opportunity to 'be active members' which usually includes 'member meetings.... attendance not required' and other BS little hoops you gotta jump through. This is why there is also the non-business front co-op, that is strictly growing, everyone has paperwork, etc. but without any monetary transactions whatsoever, except privately owned equipment that is dual use, or personally donated equipment, thus completely avoiding the monetary exchange. This makes it much much easier for everyone to get together to grow a lot of pot... especially if you know one who really knows how to grow and only needs equipment, you and a few buddies get together, do the paperwork, pay any applicable fees, start a NFP that does not conduct any monetary transactions, and get it reg'd as a co-op. Heard that it makes it all easier, and also a good way to just get a shitload of return for your investment.


Please be careful using generalizations regarding complicated legal matters in a system that's not even fleshed out yet. I would hate for a "couple of buddies to get together" ..."do the paperwork"...and "get a shitload of return on their investment". That "shitload" is exactly what we've been saying here cannot happen.

Keep in mind a "Collective Association" does not require registration of any kind. This is why we chose it as our structure. We have no storefront, but can legally exchange money between members in the "closed loop".


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## collective gardener (Feb 28, 2011)

We're getting way off topic here and it's my fault. I'm now going to the grow and am going to take a bunch of pics to share. Any pic requests? I'll check RIU from the grow and take whatever angles people want. Anyways, let's grow some killer weed and help others do the same. Let's put away the 400's and bust out some 1000's.; Let's start working together to get everyone 2 grams/watt.

I'm fucking pumped. We have 6 - 1000 watt and 2 - 600 watt ballasts arriving today or tomorrow. We need to put in the vent ducting for them today. Helper D and I put in the sub panel yesterday. We also have some big ol' carbon filters coming...10" x 39". The stink is a coming and we will be ready.

Now, we're back on topic. No more legal talk for a while, anyways. It's a total buzz kill.


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## incognegro999 (Feb 28, 2011)

waiting on those pics haha. Love seeing big grows


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## Luger187 (Feb 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Thank you for getting involved. I'd like the info, however, we're trying to #1 deal directly with patients and #2 work locally. I'm sure, however, that we could donate some trim so long as the trim we donate goes to the patients without charge. Thanks again.





collective gardener said:


> We're getting way off topic here and it's my fault. I'm now going to the grow and am going to take a bunch of pics to share. Any pic requests? I'll check RIU from the grow and take whatever angles people want. Anyways, let's grow some killer weed and help others do the same. Let's put away the 400's and bust out some 1000's.; Let's start working together to get everyone 2 grams/watt.
> 
> I'm fucking pumped. We have 6 - 1000 watt and 2 - 600 watt ballasts arriving today or tomorrow. We need to put in the vent ducting for them today. Helper D and I put in the sub panel yesterday. We also have some big ol' carbon filters coming...10" x 39". The stink is a coming and we will be ready.
> 
> Now, we're back on topic. No more legal talk for a while, anyways. It's a total buzz kill.


u may have answered this already, but what soil r u guys usin?
what do u use for runoff trays? i remember one pic where helper D was sitting down, and it looked like a big bag of soil in a plastic bucket. thats what the plastic bucket is for right? do u guys have to remove the plant to empty the runoff water? or is there enough space between the bag of soil and bucket to fit the pump hose in?


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## chiefmanuel (Feb 28, 2011)

Gopedxr said:


> Were can I get my state card? I have my rec and all but i am in socal as well and would like my state card. Or do I become apart of the collective?


if u live in LA take your rec to the health dept and pay the fee and u fill out the application and thats it and its a couty Id card. the state of california left it up to the individual countys to set up a medical identification card for patients with doctors recomendations


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## TheLastWood (Feb 28, 2011)

Keep up the good work man, I like ur style. Forget all the mumbo jumbo and grow some dank. Enough of a hassle without arguing about technicalities n whatnot.


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## chiefmanuel (Feb 28, 2011)

thats right


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## sensisensai (Feb 28, 2011)

Impressive at the least. Subbed


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## southside420 (Feb 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> We're getting way off topic here and it's my fault. I'm now going to the grow and am going to take a bunch of pics to share. Any pic requests? I'll check RIU from the grow and take whatever angles people want. Anyways, let's grow some killer weed and help others do the same. Let's put away the 400's and bust out some 1000's.; Let's start working together to get everyone 2 grams/watt.
> 
> I'm fucking pumped. We have 6 - 1000 watt and 2 - 600 watt ballasts arriving today or tomorrow. We need to put in the vent ducting for them today. Helper D and I put in the sub panel yesterday. We also have some big ol' carbon filters coming...10" x 39". The stink is a coming and we will be ready.
> 
> Now, we're back on topic. No more legal talk for a while, anyways. It's a total buzz kill.


 
I would personally like to see the infrastructure setup (power/ventilation/irrigation?) on a grow this size. Also maybe a bird´s eye view of the whole room so we can see how things are laid out. If there is anything flowering, bud porn is always a plus! Thx CG


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## southside420 (Feb 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I'm now going to the grow and am going to take a bunch of pics to share. Any pic requests? I'll check RIU from the grow and take whatever angles people want.


I have an IT background so please don´t take this as me being paranoid, I know just how easily people get traced online. This is a handy tool for anyone stuck in a situation where they have to research, post, order stuff online, etc.. from their grow location, or whoever just wants some anonymity online. - https://www.torproject.org/ . Hope this helps guys, stay safe, keep it green..or purple.


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## collective gardener (Feb 28, 2011)

incognegro999 said:


> waiting on those pics haha. Love seeing big grows



We had a big shopping spree today: 6 - 1000 watt Ballasts, 6 - 600 watt Ballasts, Digilux bulbs for all, a couple reflectors, 2 - 10" Inline Fans, 1 - 8" Inline Fan, 2 - 8" Booster Fans, 2 - 6" Booster Fans, a bunch of ducting and fittings, 70 Pint Dehumidifier, 12,000btu Portabe Air Conditioner, Rope Ratchets, and some rough electrical gear. All told: $6,200. We're expecting delivery on 2 - 10" x 39" carbon filters tomorrow...just in time!



The bloom room is way too crowded. We're installing 6 new 1000 watt lights tomorrow. We spent today getting parts and installing a new sub-panel for the lights and cooling fans. Once the new lights are in, we can bring about 6 more plants in from the veg room to fill out the flower room. Then we'll hang 4 - 600 watt bare bulbs around a few smaller un topped Lavander crosses I have just for this purpose.



Here's 9 Bubba Kush plants 2 weeks into bloom. They're in 10 gallon buckets with Sunshine #4. I'm switching to this great coarse/fine coco blend I found for all future planting



This Bubba is 3 weeks into bloom. I'm very happy with the amount of bud sites and the current size. I'm going to go out on a limb an estimate this plant will yield 6ozs.




Here's a close up on a Bubba 3 weeks into bloom. By tomorrow night these girls are going to be getting blasted with alot more light than they have right now. These first couple crops are all about getting a feel for canopy shape, training, and light distribution. This is my first grow with real plant limits. Typically with a grow this size I'd have...well...uhhhh...let's just say alot more plants than I have here. So, we're trying to get a feel for how to maximize yield with only about 45 plants in an 8 x 24 foot area under 12,000+ watts of light. The other 45 plants are in the veg room, and I reserve 9 plant spots for a mother or 2 and some new strains.


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## collective gardener (Feb 28, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> u may have answered this already, but what soil r u guys usin?
> what do u use for runoff trays? i remember one pic where helper D was sitting down, and it looked like a big bag of soil in a plastic bucket. thats what the plastic bucket is for right? do u guys have to remove the plant to empty the runoff water? or is there enough space between the bag of soil and bucket to fit the pump hose in?


We're growing in Sunshine #4, but are switching to coco on all future planting. We use 5 and 10 gallon nursery pots. The pots must be removed from their drain buckets to drain them off. I'll be installing a suction tube in each drain bucket so Helper D can just hook the pump out hose to it and suck it dry.


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## collective gardener (Feb 28, 2011)

southside420 said:


> I would personally like to see the infrastructure setup (power/ventilation/irrigation?) on a grow this size. Also maybe a bird´s eye view of the whole room so we can see how things are laid out. If there is anything flowering, bud porn is always a plus! Thx CG


I'll get you some pics of the electrical, plumbing, and HVAC. Getting a bird's eye view is impossible. I tried. Even with my 10' ceilings and the camera up in the joists, I just can't get more than about half the room. I do have some picks of when we were framing that may give you a better perspective. I posted the plants 3 weeks into bloom. Not quite porn yet...softcore, maybe.


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## RC7 (Feb 28, 2011)

amazing setup, everything looks excellent! definitely subscribed +rep


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## southside420 (Mar 1, 2011)

Looking superb. Great setup man. The pics definitley gave me a better mental image of whats going on. Are the drain buckets empty or do you fill them with hydroton or something similar? For a second there I thought you were doing some double-potting.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 1, 2011)

Looking beautiful. I know you will love the coco mix, your growth will explode. I love the shit and have been using it w/o perlite but I'm going to start and expext even better results do to more air to the roots. 

I'm also eager to hear about your regular ballasts vs. Digilux. You think it will outwiegh the price diff? I think a digi ballast with digi bulbs would work great butthey boast over 50% more light with the same power n seems a little far fetched. I also believe coil ballasts will last longer. You aren't using co2 are you?

Keep it up man. Can't wait to see the trees your talking about growing.


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## mrduke (Mar 1, 2011)

good to see this getting back to the grow. dont get me wrong the last few pages were very informitive and inspiring. But i love shoots of those monster bushes


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## collective gardener (Mar 1, 2011)

RC7 said:


> amazing setup, everything looks excellent! definitely subscribed +rep


 
Thank You!


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## collective gardener (Mar 1, 2011)

southside420 said:


> Looking superb. Great setup man. The pics definitley gave me a better mental image of whats going on. Are the drain buckets empty or do you fill them with hydroton or something similar? For a second there I thought you were doing some double-potting.


Hey...thanks for the nice words. The drain bucketes are empty. You can't see it, but there is an upside down square empty pot in every drain bucket that the planting pot rests on. This keeps the planting pot up and out of the waste water. We have different square pots with different heights, too. This way we can adjust the height of the plant to keep an even canopy. 

2 things I have to do before Helper D revolts like a middle east nation: get wheels on every plant, and install a 12" drain tube on every waste bucket that Helper D can just plug the running suction pump into for a few seconds.


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## collective gardener (Mar 1, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Looking beautiful. I know you will love the coco mix, your growth will explode. I love the shit and have been using it w/o perlite but I'm going to start and expext even better results do to more air to the roots.
> 
> I'm also eager to hear about your regular ballasts vs. Digilux. You think it will outwiegh the price diff? I think a digi ballast with digi bulbs would work great butthey boast over 50% more light with the same power n seems a little far fetched. I also believe coil ballasts will last longer. You aren't using co2 are you?
> 
> Keep it up man. Can't wait to see the trees your talking about growing.


This coco thing is very exiting. I think I already posted that my hydroponics supplier is this Indian dude that supplies _all_ of the coco to _all_ of the coco distributers. Every coco I had tried before was too fine for my liking. Then, Coco Puff Daddy (thats what we call him), shows me this custom coco blend: 30% coarse coco/70% medium/fine. The stuff drains so good you don't even need perlite. I can't believe the water holding capacity, either. Then, there's the price. It works out to about 1/3 of Sunshine#4. I can't believe that I'll be growing in product right out of the bag (or block with the coco). For years I've mixed my own special blend. Even with Sunshine #4 I add perlite and vermiculite. Anyways, the 1 gallon test plants we tried the coco in shot roots out the drain holes in 5 days. That's a record.

I agree with you 100% on the ballasts. A magnetic ballast will probably last longer. I've had one for over 15 years. It's in this room. I use it in every grow for good luck. This ballast has never been busted or robbed. I don't know how long a digital will last. I would imagine that if it were kept cool, it would last quite a while. The Phantoms have a 5 year warranty. 

I've never heard claims of 50% more light. It wouldn't suprise me, though. People clain all sorts of crazy stuff. As far as increased light, the Digilux bulb puts out around 155,000 lumens vs 140,000 lumens for a Horti. That's from my own testing, and that's more the bulb than the ballast.

There are 2 reasons I run digital...#1 The noise. Ever heard 20 mag ballasts buzzing away? It will drive you nuts. #2 Versatility. I can change bulbs at will. If I feel like some halide in the bloom room, i just change bulbs. I hate conversion bulbs. They're just cheap ass halides with no real enhanced spectrum.

Right now I'm not running CO2. When and if I seal the room and install the ductless split AC system, I'll put in a burner. To be honest, CO2 is kind of a pain in a perpetual op. The plants do become addicted. You need to isolate both rooms atmosphere from each other to keep the veg at 1200ppm while the bloom is sleeping. If the CO2 levels ever drop to ambiant, growth stops. I speak from lots of experience running CO2. If I have to seal this room, I'll have to run CO2. Otherwise, I'll just keep moving around 3000cfm through the rooms.


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## madcatter (Mar 1, 2011)

This may sound elementary... but big roots lead to big fruits and big ass yeilds come from big ass plants.... so... try vegging them to be monsters, Fim, Lst and big buckets.... 7 gallon or 15 gallon..... lots of tlc and misting and foliar along with regular feed schedule.... this would be a big project but looks like you have the resources... so get up off the porch and run with the big dogs..... Peace Love Happiness


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 1, 2011)

thats sooo sweet i'm so gladd i subbed to this


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## TheLastWood (Mar 1, 2011)

Yeah they claim the digi ballasts are 30% brighter and the bulbs are supposed to be 20% brighter. 2 out of my 3 core n coils are switchable hps mh and nowadays they run about 20$ more than the non switches. Ppl say the switchables are bad but there not. Even 30% brightness gain is worth goin digi if you have the money up front. The other cool thing about the digis is the 65' cord option and generator ready feature. 

I transplanted from small #6 pots into 3 gallons and saw roots out the drain holes in 2 days!! I also buy packs of zho mychorrize and mix it in with the coco as I break it up from the brick. There only 7$ a pack for the zho and it has more propagules per gram than any other mycs at my local hydro (excluding the overpriced mycs like great white). The zho is supposed to treat 28 plants 2x. I don't ever get that far with it but Its still a great deal. Made by botanicare.


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 1, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yeah they claim the digi ballasts are 30% brighter and the bulbs are supposed to be 20% brighter. 2 out of my 3 core n coils are switchable hps mh and nowadays they run about 20$ more than the non switches. Ppl say the switchables are bad but there not. Even 30% brightness gain is worth goin digi if you have the money up front. The other cool thing about the digis is the 65' cord option and generator ready feature.
> 
> I transplanted from small #6 pots into 3 gallons and saw roots out the drain holes in 2 days!! I also buy packs of zho mychorrize and mix it in with the coco as I break it up from the brick. There only 7$ a pack for the zho and it has more propagules per gram than any other mycs at my local hydro (excluding the overpriced mycs like great white). The zho is supposed to treat 28 plants 2x. I don't ever get that far with it but Its still a great deal. Made by botanicare.


that 30% brighter stuff is Bs dont believe everything you read, most of the time its a smoke screen


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 1, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> that 30% brighter stuff is Bs dont believe everything you read, most of the time its a smoke screen


Seriously. The lumen output of 1kw hps with a mag ballast is 140,000, with a digital ballast it's 155,000. Not even close to 30%, or even 20 for that matter...


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## adamhew77 (Mar 1, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Please be careful using generalizations regarding complicated legal matters in a system that's not even fleshed out yet. I would hate for a "couple of buddies to get together" ..."do the paperwork"...and "get a shitload of return on their investment". That "shitload" is exactly what we've been saying here cannot happen.
> 
> Keep in mind a "Collective Association" does not require registration of any kind. This is why we chose it as our structure. We have no storefront, but can legally exchange money between members in the "closed loop".


That is exactly what I am a part of. A closed loop is the only safe way. In my mind quality always outweighs quantity. Meaning....I would much rather supply a collective with as much as they can handle and get larger as they do without nearly the same risk as going to several different ones to sell what I think is what it would take to make a "shit load" of money getting wrapped up in some bs. 
My personal freedom is worth millions to me.....I know first hand how the later goes down..as I have said before out of 4 dispensaries I have went to 2 have been raided. The one closed loop collective I am a part of is still growing strong... we(the collective) sell for nearly half price of the others...nobody is trying to get rich...just get paid.to do what we.love....ain't that enough


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## adamhew77 (Mar 1, 2011)

It is illegal to sell weed...donations are legal , reasonable compensation is legal...all is really just tolerated but if u try to blow up and get flashy and rich the feds will chop u down..simple fact ....


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## collective gardener (Mar 1, 2011)

madcatter said:


> This may sound elementary... but big roots lead to big fruits and big ass yeilds come from big ass plants.... so... try vegging them to be monsters, Fim, Lst and big buckets.... 7 gallon or 15 gallon..... lots of tlc and misting and foliar along with regular feed schedule.... this would be a big project but looks like you have the resources... so get up off the porch and run with the big dogs..... Peace Love Happiness


Have you _seen_ my plants? lol. All have been FIM'd...all are tied down and out in every direction to the edge of the 10 gallon pots. The veg period including rooting time is 8 weeks. That's why our veg room has 6 - 1000 watt lights, a T-5, and a dedicated Floro for rooting clones. We have an 8 x 25 flower room with 62 watts/sq ft, and I plan on using every inch of it! With only 45 plants to bloom at a time, they have to be quite large. I even over did it this first batch. I think we may be tossing 4 large plants that aren't going to fit into the bloom room.


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## collective gardener (Mar 1, 2011)

mrduke said:


> good to see this getting back to the grow. dont get me wrong the last few pages were very informitive and inspiring. But i love shoots of those monster bushes


 
I'm glad to be back in the grow, too. It's so much better than all the legal BS. Leave that to the lawyers. Hell, we pay em enough...let them deal with it.


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## collective gardener (Mar 1, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> thats sooo sweet i'm so gladd i subbed to this


 
Thanks Verde...good to see you around.


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 1, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Have you _seen_ my plants? lol. All have been FIM'd...all are tied down and out in every direction to the edge of the 10 gallon pots. The veg period including rooting time is 8 weeks. That's why our veg room has 6 - 1000 watt lights, a T-5, and a dedicated Floro for rooting clones. We have an 8 x 25 flower room with 62 watts/sq ft, and I plan on using every inch of it! With only 45 plants to bloom at a time, they have to be quite large. I even over did it this first batch. I think we may be tossing 4 large plants that aren't going to fit into the bloom room.


Bah! You can always make room


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## collective gardener (Mar 1, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Seriously. The lumen output of 1kw hps with a mag ballast is 140,000, with a digital ballast it's 155,000. Not even close to 30%, or even 20 for that matter...


 
I don't even know if there's that big a difference. I know I get 155,000 with a Phantom cooking a Digilux bulb. I get 140,000 with a mag cooking a Horti. I have a brand new 1000 watt Horti. I'll screw it into a Phantom tomorrow and see what it gives me. I've used Mags and Hortis my whole life. If it wasn't for the noise issue, I'd still be using em. Like I said, I have a 15 year old Hydrofarm mag ballast that works great. That bad boy has been in service for 12 of the last 15 years. I really hope these Phantoms can provide that kind of service life, but I doubt they will. Oh, and the energy savings they talk about with a digital is just the energy beyond the wattage rating. In other words, if a 1000 watt mag draws about 1100 watts...and a Phantom 1050 watts, they claim it uses half the power. Kind of misleading, eh?


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 1, 2011)

Fkn sweet....can't wait to see some big ass donkey dick buds!!!!!!!


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## collective gardener (Mar 1, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Bah! You can always make room


 
LOL. That's what Helper D says. The thought of tossing 4 huge plants is killing him. I'm more pragmatic. Hell, I have a couple 600's. Maybe I'll just put each one under its own 600 and see what it can do. I'm not a fan of 600's, but I bought 4 to do my bare bulb hanging test. I just don't have any non topped plants to test with right now. I'll go buy a couple Adjust a Wings and do the 600 thing. It would be interesting to see what they will do. Plus, I LOVE Adjut a Wings.


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## collective gardener (Mar 1, 2011)

ENDLSCYCLE said:


> Fkn sweet....can't wait to see some big ass donkey dick buds!!!!!!!


 
LOL. Well, all of our plants are topped, so maybe doggie dicks...just more of em.


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## Esteban Sanchez (Mar 1, 2011)

Sorry but i think thats a fake Doctor rec i hope you didnt pay too much for it. Source calnorml.org...SB420 Guidelines: Only 6 plants can be cultivated per patient and 8 ounces of dry marijuana. There is no such thing as a 99 plant rec. Why does a doctor have the right to give permission to start a massive grow op?? You need to sign agreements with 16 patients with you as their caregiver. Or get written permission from a collective with 16+ recs active. And just because your under 99 plants doesnt mean you cant get 5+ years from the feds. 

FYI there are many doctors running around LA (im in the valley) that have no idea what they are talking about and/or not even doctors. All recs have a picture of ur Cali drivers license. 

I dont mean to come across like a dick, please correct me if im wrong. Im just looking out for a fellow local grower


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## collective gardener (Mar 1, 2011)

Esteban Sanchez said:


> Sorry but i think thats a fake Doctor rec i hope you didnt pay too much for it. Source calnorml.org...SB420 Guidelines: Only 6 plants can be cultivated per patient and 8 ounces of dry marijuana. There is no such thing as a 99 plant rec. Why does a doctor have the right to give permission to start a massive grow op?? You need to sign agreements with 16 patients with you as their caregiver. Or get written permission from a collective with 16+ recs active. And just because your under 99 plants doesnt mean you cant get 5+ years from the feds.
> 
> FYI there are many doctors running around LA (im in the valley) that have no idea what they are talking about and/or not even doctors. All recs have a picture of ur Cali drivers license.
> 
> I dont mean to come across like a dick, please correct me if im wrong. Im just looking out for a fellow local grower


Thank you for your concern. I assure you that the rec is real. I also pay a lawyer alot of money to keep us legal. A rec over the 6/12 is called an SB420 excemption. In 2008 the California Supreme Court decided that it was unconstitutional to assign a specific limit to the amount of medication a patient may need. In 2010 the Supreme Court affirmed that action. The true guidlines for the amount that can be grown is an amount that is proportionate to a patients needs.

We also operate a legal collective association. We are not caregivers...that's a different deal, altogether. Many of our collective's members also have 99 plant recs. The difference between a collective and a caregiver is that myself and a group of people grow our medication together, much like a community garden. A caregiver is one person growing for another, or procuring medication for another.

The reason we choose to stay under 99 plants is to avoid the 5 year _mandatory minimum_ with the feds. However, the feds are being fairly cool with med states, lately. Of course, if you ahave a 5,000 plant grow going they would get involved for sure. We could comfortably under current state law grow quite a bit more than 99 plants.

I hope that cleared things up. I'd rather not spend time here discusing legal issues.


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## onepointsixoneeight (Mar 1, 2011)

Hey, first post. Just wanted to say your shit looks AMAZING and I applaud your workmanship and detail. Looking forward to gaining knowledge from this board as SWIM has similar plans as to what is going on here. 

PEAce


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## TheLastWood (Mar 2, 2011)

Why does everyone think there a lawyer? This is a marijuana growin website and thread. There is a designated forum for legal talk. If he's not worried about it stfu already.


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## collective gardener (Mar 2, 2011)

onepointsixoneeight said:


> Hey, first post. Just wanted to say your shit looks AMAZING and I applaud your workmanship and detail. Looking forward to gaining knowledge from this board as SWIM has similar plans as to what is going on here.
> 
> PEAce


Sorry, I don't do the "friends" thing. It's nothing personal; I have no "friends" in my profile , but I'd like to think I have a few here on the board. I'll be happy to answer questions on the board, or a PM if it isn't a request to commit a crime. Also, the "SWIM" thing is for drug boards. I've seen SWIM used on boards where people are discussing doing meth and shit. I'd like to think that this great group of growers is above that shit. Anyways, I don't mean to give you a hard time. Welcome aboard and tell us about your plans. There's a ton very tallented folks here...many of whom would be glad to give you any help you need with your proposed grow.


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 2, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> LOL. That's what Helper D says. The thought of tossing 4 huge plants is killing him. I'm more pragmatic. Hell, I have a couple 600's. Maybe I'll just put each one under its own 600 and see what it can do. I'm not a fan of 600's, but I bought 4 to do my bare bulb hanging test. I just don't have any non topped plants to test with right now. I'll go buy a couple Adjust a Wings and do the 600 thing. It would be interesting to see what they will do. Plus, I LOVE Adjut a Wings.


Just make sure to get the Super Spreader too!


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## collective gardener (Mar 2, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Just make sure to get the Super Spreader too!


I have a couple Super Spreaders right now for our 2 adjut a wings. We're not using them. The light without them is actually stronger on the edges than right under the bulb. That's the amazing thing about these reflectors. I used the reflectors on a closet grow with great success. I think when you are wide open with plenty of cooling power and buffering you can get by without them.

Either way, IMHO these are, and always have been, the best reflector made. If they only air cooled them. I have threatened for years to do a 20 light adjust a wing grow with 2 - 5 ton AC units.


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 2, 2011)

hey collective gardener

you just got the verde bump to 3 rep bars 

How are you liking RIU?


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 2, 2011)

And I bumped you to four!!!!!LOL


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## collective gardener (Mar 2, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> hey collective gardener
> 
> you just got the verde bump to 3 rep bars
> 
> How are you liking RIU?


Thanks, Verde. I'm embarrassed to admit, though, I don't know what the "reps" and "bars" mean. Could you please explain.

I'm really enjoying RIU. What a great group of people. It's rare to find such a generous, interesting, and caring bunch in one room. I think that great things happen here. I've been growing for a LONG time, yet learn something every single time I log on here. 

Verde, I assume you're associated with the site beyond a member level? What can I do to help support this thing. I feel like I've finally found a home...a place that I can freely talk about things that I had to keep secret for over 20 years. It's like a flood has opened up from within me, and I don't want to lose it. Many of us come from a time when, if you wanted to continue growing, you had to keep your mouth shut...always. It's sadly ironic in that growing is something that begs to be talked about and openly shared.

OK...sorry for being corny. Please tell me what I can do to help make sure RIU will always be there when I log on.


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 2, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Thanks, Verde. I'm embarrassed to admit, though, I don't know what the "reps" and "bars" mean. Could you please explain.
> 
> I'm really enjoying RIU. What a great group of people. It's rare to find such a generous, interesting, and caring bunch in one room. I think that great things happen here. I've been growing for a LONG time, yet learn something every single time I log on here.
> 
> ...


Hey man, no I'm just a member 

REPs are points, as in reputation.. if someone likes a post you made, they can +rep you, or add a rep point.... It's the little star symbol next to "journal this post", under every post. The more rep you have, the more rep you give every time you give + rep someone. The little green bars under your username shows how much rep you have, but I think only like 5 or 6 bars is the max it gets to..

I think rollitup.org is doing okay, but you can PM the moderator/site owner, 'rollitup' (without the quotes) if you want to try to help out with whatever..


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## collective gardener (Mar 2, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> Hey man, no I'm just a member
> 
> REPs are points, as in reputation.. if someone likes a post you made, they can +rep you, or add a rep point.... It's the little star symbol next to "journal this post", under every post. The more rep you have, the more rep you give every time you give + rep someone. The little green bars under your username shows how much rep you have, but I think only like 5 or 6 bars is the max it gets to..
> 
> I think rollitup.org is doing okay, but you can PM the moderator/site owner, 'rollitup' (without the quotes) if you want to try to help out with whatever..


Thanks Verde. I'll have to go back through some of fav posts and give them their credit.


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 2, 2011)

no problem man keep up the good work

my own 4 tangerine dreams are doing just dandy at day 19 from lights on


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## Gopedxr (Mar 2, 2011)

Sr. Verde you know your stuff huh? How long ya been doin it for. Seems you and collective gardener know a lot.


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## collective gardener (Mar 3, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> no problem man keep up the good work
> 
> my own 4 tangerine dreams are doing just dandy at day 19 from lights on


Right on Verde. Toss us a pic to keep the Bubbas company.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 3, 2011)

I know what you mean gardener. For years our people have been oppressed. Lol, I have a dream that one day we can all grow cannabis in out front yards without fear of prosecution. (Wonder if that will make me an icon/martyr)

It is sad, I always wondered why my grandma loved her gardening so much, maybe she passed it on to me. Its so peaceful. Brings me closer to god. So much love created, even if for plants. I wonder if I could say I have a compulsion or addiction to growing pot if I could ever get off the hook. Shit if you can get away with murder for "insanity"


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## Luger187 (Mar 3, 2011)

hey CG, u guys use a big res with a hose attached right? when u water, do u base the amount of water on sight(seeing that the plant has enough water), or do u turn the hose wand on for a certain number of seconds? ive seen people do both. if its the latter, how do u keep the pressure constant, so the flow rate is always constant too? without the same pressure and water flow in the hose, the later plants would get less water. this is because the res is less full and therefore less pressure

i was talking to my friend about this and i thought i remembered helper D using a hose wand in a pic. so i thought id ask here


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## onepointsixoneeight (Mar 3, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Sorry, I don't do the "friends" thing. It's nothing personal; I have no "friends" in my profile , but I'd like to think I have a few here on the board. I'll be happy to answer questions on the board, or a PM if it isn't a request to commit a crime. Also, the "SWIM" thing is for drug boards. I've seen SWIM used on boards where people are discussing doing meth and shit. I'd like to think that this great group of growers is above that shit. Anyways, I don't mean to give you a hard time. Welcome aboard and tell us about your plans. There's a ton very tallented folks here...many of whom would be glad to give you any help you need with your proposed grow.


No worries! Thanks for the welcome and congrats so far on what you've accomplished.

I use SWIM out of habit... anonymity is key, and I've been involved in a few "operations" that required the code word 

Anyway, the plan is to simply grow the best possible product with the most possible efficiency. I have been reading and reading and reading about what is needed to start an operation in CA... It honestly seems daunting, especially with the possibility of raids still being present. I understand that you're doing this to provide sick patients with medicine, and I'm totally on board with that but money makes the world go round. Period. My question is this... being that the risk of a "kick door" still exists, why not grow somewhere where you can maximize profits? Basically, what I've gathered from the last thirty pages or so is "we're safe, but the feds can come in and take everything anytime they want." This seems counterintuitive... asinine in a sense... not for the one growing, just the general principle. 

If you live in CA and are already there, cool, but for someone like me, who is not in CA, it still seems the legal landscape is up in the air enough to not justify coming to CA to grow. 

I'm trying to secure my future as I've learned that my science degree is meaningless unless I want to do 5 more years of loans, school and bullshit... The solution: grow. 

Anyway, your setup is PHENOMENAL. I am wondering, though, is 12,000 watts in that small of an area (8'x24') overkill? Will you experiment with using less light and calculating yields to see if the extra light is worth it? Are you projecting 2g's/watt? If so, how much CO2 are you using? 

Looking forward to cramming my brain with more knowledge. Great board you guys got here.


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## highonbud (Mar 3, 2011)

Colorado if you get the right Doctor they will perscribe you up to 40plants for your medical needs. its looking great


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## TheLastWood (Mar 3, 2011)

Don't mean to speak for gardener but he's not using co2 and has ample light because plans on growing trees since there is a plant limit


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 3, 2011)

I wouldn't call 99plants a limit....more like a schmorgis board of bud!!!


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## collective gardener (Mar 3, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> hey CG, u guys use a big res with a hose attached right? when u water, do u base the amount of water on sight(seeing that the plant has enough water), or do u turn the hose wand on for a certain number of seconds? ive seen people do both. if its the latter, how do u keep the pressure constant, so the flow rate is always constant too? without the same pressure and water flow in the hose, the later plants would get less water. this is because the res is less full and therefore less pressure
> 
> i was talking to my friend about this and i thought i remembered helper D using a hose wand in a pic. so i thought id ask here


Helper D uses a wand and counts the seconds. Every day he confirms waste water flow on a few plants cause the needs change. We water sooooo much that a fluctuation in flow wouldn't make a difference. Nutes are cheap, and flushing is good.


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## collective gardener (Mar 3, 2011)

onepointsixoneeight said:


> No worries! Thanks for the welcome and congrats so far on what you've accomplished.
> 
> I use SWIM out of habit... anonymity is key, and I've been involved in a few "operations" that required the code word
> 
> ...


Wood covered it. Thanks. I believe that 62 watts/sq ft isn't overkill. While the yield may remain close with less light, I wouldn't get those ultra dense nugs that california patients expect. If you're using less than 50 watts/sq ft, you're going to lose yield. I have a friend who uses 80.


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## RollUpMikey (Mar 4, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I believe that 62 watts/sq ft isn't overkill. While the yield may remain close with less light, I wouldn't get those ultra dense nugs that california patients expect.


No Lie!

I read your whole thread and love everything I see so far. The talk about Collective's being raided for legit reasoning was completely correct, especially where I'm from. Countless friends have lost jobs recently due to being raided. Continue posting, cause you've got my attention sir! :]


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 4, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Right on Verde. Toss us a pic to keep the Bubbas company.


Hey man, I came by to make a reply, but I got reallllly stoned and passed out  I'm sure you know how that is

Anyway, I just took some pictures for you again, since the pics from last night are outdated 

This is Barneys Farm Tangerine Dream on day 21 since lights on. They are JUST beginning to start on their branches, it should get seriously bushy in a few weeks (I also topped all 4)... I'm in a 2x2x5 tent, with 4. I plan to veg to a little over a foot, and then flower them. I'm not sure how big they are going to get in flower, but if worse comes to worse I figured out how I could add another 6 inches of vertical space, by putting the inline fan on the outside of the tent 

I've got a wide range of phenotypes  and one retard, that i'm not taking pics of LOL I might have to chop him down if he keeps not doing much 

















Under a 250w hortilux blue MH


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## collective gardener (Mar 4, 2011)

Verde,

I like that side branching right down to the dirt. Keep power blasting those things with light and you're going to have to dense bushes. I can't wait to see them in bloom. Didn't they win the cup this year?


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 4, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Verde,
> 
> I like that side branching right down to the dirt. Keep power blasting those things with light and you're going to have to dense bushes. I can't wait to see them in bloom. Didn't they win the cup this year?


Thanks man 

Glad you can see exactly what I'm trying to do with it 

Yeah I really want to see them bloom too  But I've learned to take my sweet time in veg, get some reallly nice healthy branching, and some low bushes, with the tops arranged accordingly ready to stretch up.

The leaves look and smell really tropical. Like, WOW. Very smooth, relaxed round edges... thin leaves that look like they belong in humidity. Smells like mandarin orange tea dank 

This is the image attitude provides






going to have 8 large stalks of that hopefully  I want them budding from the dirt


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## TheLastWood (Mar 4, 2011)

What's new gardener? How's the ladies doin? Can't wait to see your vert bulb setup in action. I know your probably not interested in breeding because of your plant limit but have you ever thought about it? Seems like you have enough room. Man there's so many things I would do if I had knowledge and resources you have.

Well keep up the good work bud! N keep the pics comin too! Never get tired of pictures.


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## killeroxx (Mar 4, 2011)

Im growing AK-47xLowryder#2 right now and I hope I can get them to turn out as nice as your ladies....and OMG thats a huge room  looking great plus rep..if ya get a chance check out my GROW 
Subbed +REP


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## collective gardener (Mar 4, 2011)

I went ballistic with the camera today. We've made some changes and the plants have grown quite a bit since last pics. Here goes:



Added a portable AC unit to bloom room. This is the supply air for the compressor. It's an 8" duct with a booster fan. The AC uses the air it needs and the ballance is just injected into the bloom room as fresh air supply.


This is in the veg room. To the left is the main warehouse. The lower booster fan is 10" and supplies air to the veg room. The upper 10" duct passes through the veg room and into the bloom room, supplying fresh air there. The air is pulled in by the inline fans on the carbon filters located in the bloom room.


Carbon filter #1 installed yesterday. About a week late. It's a 10 x 39 Phresh.


#2


Spare bulbs and extra ballasts. I ran out of power to the rooms. I may run some more power...we'll see.


This little RO unit is great. A little over $200 and makes 200gpd. We let it run all night and have plenty of water the next day. Pre filter and carbon filters are 13 bucks each and are changed once a month.


This is the socket we'll be using in the bare bulb trials. We have 4 of them and 4 - 600 watt ballasts.


These are some new plants a friend brought by. They are Lavander x Afgan x Purple Kush back crossed with Afgan. They are unruly to grow. However, the buds are deep purple, covered with crystals, thick, and dense. My friend, who sells to collectives, has 5 packs of this sold a month in advance. We feel very fortunate to have them in our stable.


The veg room stays full. We keep moving plants into bloom, but the veging plants are growing faster than we can flower.


The bloom room looking pretty good.


Top view of the bloom room.


Here's a Bubba at 4 weeks into bloom


A closer look at the 4 week Bubba


Another top view.


Some scale on stock size of a 10 gallon Bubba 2 weeks into bloom.


LST results. The next few pics are all of different plants showing what the stocks end up looking like after some heavy bending.











And, at last...another crowd favorite; Helper D crawling around the underbrush pulling hose and playing with his wand.

That was a big one. Helper D hears about all of your comments so keep em coming. A friend dropped off 3 samples of some LA Confidential, Super Skumk, and Blue Dream for us to try out. Since I don't smoke during the day, I ordered Helper D to try all 3 right away. Being the loyal worker that he is, the glass was out in mere seconds. Within 15 minutes he had a consise rating of each. He is truly a proffesional.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 4, 2011)

Lol gardener your doin awesome! Thanks for the update. Oh my god its so amazing. I'm so jealous. I was pullin my hose n playin with my wand too! My grows been goin about 11 weeks now, got 3 jack herers flowering, until now been tryin to get a little smoke but mainly finding good mothers and collectin equiptment to go perpetual. I'm gonna start lst soon as my clones root and are ready, but I'm wondering how much room do you give a plant with lst? Its obviously more than normal but I don't wanna start too many and get too crowded. I also have some diesels in veg should be preflowering any day now.


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## collective gardener (Mar 4, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> What's new gardener? How's the ladies doin? Can't wait to see your vert bulb setup in action. I know your probably not interested in breeding because of your plant limit but have you ever thought about it? Seems like you have enough room. Man there's so many things I would do if I had knowledge and resources you have.
> 
> Well keep up the good work bud! N keep the pics comin too! Never get tired of pictures.


You know, I've always wanted to try some breeding. With the genetics that I have access to, there are some real cool possibilities. For right now, I need to get this grow dialed in. We're growing now with brute force. It'll take some time to get this op where it needs to be. I know that whatever yield we get from this crop will be less than half of what the op can do in a year or so. This is my first time growing this strain, and my first time growing such big plants indoors. This batch is a trial run, using LST and some leaf pruning. We'll be running some through with different techniques next round. 

So, Wood, as you can see, we're a long ways off from adding new challenges to this grow.


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## incognegro999 (Mar 4, 2011)

The picture with the cell phone next to the stem is awesome haha


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## collective gardener (Mar 4, 2011)

killeroxx said:


> Im growing AK-47xLowryder#2 right now and I hope I can get them to turn out as nice as your ladies....and OMG thats a huge room  looking great plus rep..if ya get a chance check out my GROW
> Subbed +REP


So, Killer, I checked out your grow. That's a nice clean little settup. You should be proud. Now, let's see you pump out an elbow of that AK. I KNOW it can be done under a 250 in that box. People underestimate the power of a small light in the right size small 4 sided box. I'll be checking in on ya.


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 4, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> So, Killer, I checked out your grow. That's a nice clean little settup. You should be proud. Now, let's see you pump out an elbow of that AK. I KNOW it can be done under a 250 in that box. People underestimate the power of a small light in the right size small 4 sided box. I'll be checking in on ya.



2g/w?


dude i'm running a 250w hortilux mh, I WISH I could do that I'm hoping for at least a QP.. i hope low though?


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## collective gardener (Mar 4, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Lol gardener your doin awesome! Thanks for the update. Oh my god its so amazing. I'm so jealous. I was pullin my hose n playin with my wand too! My grows been goin about 11 weeks now, got 3 jack herers flowering, until now been tryin to get a little smoke but mainly finding good mothers and collectin equiptment to go perpetual. I'm gonna start lst soon as my clones root and are ready, but I'm wondering how much room do you give a plant with lst? Its obviously more than normal but I don't wanna start too many and get too crowded. I also have some diesels in veg should be preflowering any day now.


Jack Herer, eh? I remember when that won the cup. I keep saying I'm gonna grow it some day. I just haven't got my hands on a proven clone, yet. I prefer not to grow from untested stock. I'm glad you're going perpetual. To me, it's the only way to fly for many reasons. 

Why do you want to LST? Just curious. I do it to get more plant area under the lights with less plants. If I didn't have plant limits, I'd grow hundreds of 3 footers un-topped. Anyways...your question: How much room is up to you. I didn't calc anything. We just bent the first batch down and out 1 time. The second batch we bent once and then again when we transplanted into the 10 gallon pots. Our first crop is around 2.5 feet in diameter. The second is around 3.5. Also, these plants were all either topped or FIM's early in life to give us more branches to bend out. I have seen a single stem plant bent down in one direction and trained to be like 5 feet long, with branches shooting up all the way down the main stock. The grower used broom sticks wired to the pot to tie the main branch to. The plants ended up around 5' long, 2' wide, and 2.5' tall. They yielded over an lb each. I always go a little big and end up tossing a plant or 2 due to lack of room in the bloom room. I'd much rather do this than come up short and not have enough plants under the bloom lights. The whole idea of the perpetual is to keep every sq ft of the bloom room filled with plants. So, veg like a mad man


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## collective gardener (Mar 4, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> 2g/w?
> 
> 
> dude i'm running a 250w hortilux mh, I WISH I could do that I'm hoping for at least a QP.. i hope low though?


 
Yes...2g/watt. You can do it with enough practice getting the canopy right. Can you get an HPS conversion bulb for flowering? I knew a guy years ago that consistantly got 1.5 lbs from a 400hps in a little box like yours. The nice thing about that little box is that you can spend the time figuring out the absolute best way to get the highest yield. My 1.5lb friend grew in that little box for over 10 years. He got 1lb for years, until he switched strains and got an extra 1/2lb. I don't remeber the strain, but it was killer cause I smoked a ton of it!


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 5, 2011)

Ive grown a bunch of strains and got some very good results with some but what you guys think is a win all strain weight/quality?


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## collective gardener (Mar 5, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> Ive grown a bunch of strains and got some very good results with some but what you guys think is a win all strain weight/quality?


Let me know if you find that "win all" strain.

We grow the strains we grow because of quality. Our Bubba is not a great yielder. But, my commercial grower friend grows it and sells 5 packs for asking price all day long. Same with the Lavander cross. These are truly special clone only strains unavaiable at any store. Almost every time I've purchased seeds or clones, I've been less than satisfied with the results. It sucks to invest all that time and $$$ into growing something that turns out to be just so so. It takes the same amount of time to grow something wonderful as something ordinary. And, in Califrnia, ordinary won't even pay the electrical bill.


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## collective gardener (Mar 5, 2011)

So, I meet this guy, JC, who has some meds to unload and can't seem to do it. He tells me that all of the dispensaries are a-holes, and he hates even going down there. He then tells us that "all he wants" is $2,500/lb. Since he's a local grower, who came referred, I agree to look at his weed. JC has 2 strains: LA Confidential and Super Skunk. We meet at a Kinkos (where I sign up all new members to the collective), and do the paperwork. He assures me that the samples are middle of the road examples of what the lbs look like. They smell quite good. As a matter of fact, they smell REALLY good. I'm thinking, wow, those dispensaries are getting pretty picky. Then I pulled out a bud of Super Skunk. Well, it was about 3 weeks pre-mature. No shit. The LA Confidential was about 2 weeks premature. I asked how long he flowered and he said 45 days. Ouch.

Here's a guy who did a great job on the grow, the trim, and the cure. He just blew one thing. I guess a friend came over and said they looked done, so he harvested. I really think that if he went the extra time, the stuff could have been pretty nice. Anyways, Helper D being the good guy he is, is helping JC to get _something_ for his efforts. Helper D smoked some and said it was very nice. I actually prefer the high of early pot, as well. 

This story has a happy ending. JC is a nice guy. He has a large piece of property in a rural part of town. The yard is very private. I proposed building a climate controlled greenhouse in his backyard. Since he is now a member of the collective, it would be easy legally. He agreed. Soon we will be posting pics of the design and construction of a fully climate controlled greenhouse. It wille 2 units. One will have a blackout feature to shorten the days, and both will have HPS supplemental lighting. I ask the group to send any and all pictures, ideas, and drawings of greenhouses like these. Thank You


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 5, 2011)

Oh shit.....getting big are we???? kept it up man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## SCCA (Mar 5, 2011)

Looking good gardener, those stems are huge! glad to hear you have new opportunities sprouting up. i wanted to ask you about a very similar situation. a few friends want to form a collective, but it would have gardens in a couple different locations. basically their plan is to have one veg room at one site and two flower rooms at an other. how does this affect their plant limits? are they limited to 99 all together or can each site have 99? not that they are going to grow that many.

i dont have any formal education, but i do have a bit of practical knowledge about greenhouses. I would be happy to help you with a design if you could give me info on the location. how big a greenhouse do you want? containers or in the ground? sun exposure? budget? how technical do you want to get?


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## incognegro999 (Mar 5, 2011)

Dont forget the HGTV before and after pics haha. Nice to help that guy get something.


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## Shangeet (Mar 5, 2011)

what a thread...
what a grow...
what a setup...
absolutely get speechless..........


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## collective gardener (Mar 5, 2011)

ENDLSCYCLE said:


> Oh shit.....getting big are we???? kept it up man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You know, these dispensaries are charging so much that people in need just can't afford their meds. These laws were enabled so that people could collectively grow their meds. All we are doing is facilitating the grow part. If a member has some space to grow in and another couple members have time to help with the grow, a garden is formed. To me, this kind of operation is much more within the spirit of the law than a storefront operation.


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## collective gardener (Mar 5, 2011)

SCCA said:


> Looking good gardener, those stems are huge! glad to hear you have new opportunities sprouting up. i wanted to ask you about a very similar situation. a few friends want to form a collective, but it would have gardens in a couple different locations. basically their plan is to have one veg room at one site and two flower rooms at an other. how does this affect their plant limits? are they limited to 99 all together or can each site have 99? not that they are going to grow that many.
> 
> i dont have any formal education, but i do have a bit of practical knowledge about greenhouses. I would be happy to help you with a design if you could give me info on the location. how big a greenhouse do you want? containers or in the ground? sun exposure? budget? how technical do you want to get?


 
In answer to your question, a collective can only grow the aggregate of plant numbers from everyone's recs. If the mebers can grow 50 plants total, you could grow 20 at one location and 30 at another. Got it?

I'd like to see how people are designing a blackout feature for a greenhouse. I've built some climate controlled houses before, but never with a blackout feature.


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 5, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> In answer to your question, a collective can only grow the aggregate of plant numbers from everyone's recs. If the mebers can grow 50 plants total, you could grow 20 at one location and 30 at another. Got it?
> 
> I'd like to see how people are designing a blackout feature for a greenhouse. I've built some climate controlled houses before, but never with a blackout feature.


What size greenhouse are you talking about here? LxWxH? Straight walls with sloped roof? Hoop style? It makes a big difference.


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## SCCA (Mar 5, 2011)

thanks gardener! i guess they will have to rethink their original plan.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 5, 2011)

What's up CG? Well about my herers I'm so stocked! I got a truly primo pheno that just amazes me. The sad thing is I had to cut some clones and flower her because in 3 mos she's 3 foot tall and will be massive soon. That's why I'm gonna go with a lst scrog combo. I had to take some clones to keep this one tho I can tell she's special. She's a foot taller than the ones in that are 5 weeks in flower and has been about that much taller the whole grow. Just beautiful node spacing and fill for a dominant sativa. She's less than a week in flower. 

As for your greenhouse venture. I know that I would go with a hoop house, because of ease of building and blacking out. Most likely the cheapest way and I have sen great results. I suggest you look in subcools old school organics and read "into the mist" its truly inspiring and its a hoop house with trees. Literally. Also what I would do for the veg eoom you probably only need supplemental lighting for extending your winter days and I would run those incandescant rope lights down the rows of plants. Granted you won't get much growth if any, but it will extend your daytime for a fraction of the cost of running mh, and it would only be for a few hours a day so you really wouldn't lose much veg growth. Honestly you could go with any lighting to extend your daylight. That being said I'm an electrician (we use the rope lights I mentioned for temp lighting before we have power on a jobsite) and I come across various light fixtures all the time. I'm currently sitting on 14 4' 3 lamp t8 flourescants from an office renovation that they were going to throw away. I don't know if you would rather use halides to extend your daytimes so you get that extra few hours of growth but it seems like if your gonna be growing trees it would be cheaper to use supplemental lighting only to keep them from flowering rather than to get 2 extra hrs growth considering you will only be using them in the winter. Depending on what u wanna do, I would gladly give u my 14 4' 3 lamp t8s as they could cover possibly your whole veg room. I can upload a pic if you like as well. Just throwing it out there. I took them cuz they were gonna be thrown out, are actually pretty bright and am gonna use a couple for side lighting in my room. They are still in great shape also, 

Please don't take my post as if I'm stating the obvious, I'm just tryin to help and know u are very knowledgable and already knew everything I jyst said lol.


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 5, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Yes...2g/watt. You can do it with enough practice getting the canopy right. Can you get an HPS conversion bulb for flowering? I knew a guy years ago that consistantly got 1.5 lbs from a 400hps in a little box like yours. The nice thing about that little box is that you can spend the time figuring out the absolute best way to get the highest yield. My 1.5lb friend grew in that little box for over 10 years. He got 1lb for years, until he switched strains and got an extra 1/2lb. I don't remeber the strain, but it was killer cause I smoked a ton of it!


Coming from someone like you it gives me high hopes 

As for the bulb, yes I have a digital ballast, with BOTH Hortilux Blue MH, as well as a Hortilux SUPER HPS  I'm trying to do it right you know?

My little box is a tent, 2ftx2ftx5.3ft

I yielded like 3 ozs off a 250w CFL system.. These HID's get mad penetration though! and has been growing right from the start, unlike my CFL grow... So we will see what THIS setup can do, and what I can do 


Thanks collective  keep up those sick branches


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## collective gardener (Mar 5, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> What's up CG? Well about my herers I'm so stocked! I got a truly primo pheno that just amazes me. The sad thing is I had to cut some clones and flower her because in 3 mos she's 3 foot tall and will be massive soon. That's why I'm gonna go with a lst scrog combo. I had to take some clones to keep this one tho I can tell she's special. She's a foot taller than the ones in that are 5 weeks in flower and has been about that much taller the whole grow. Just beautiful node spacing and fill for a dominant sativa. She's less than a week in flower.
> 
> As for your greenhouse venture. I know that I would go with a hoop house, because of ease of building and blacking out. Most likely the cheapest way and I have sen great results. I suggest you look in subcools old school organics and read "into the mist" its truly inspiring and its a hoop house with trees. Literally. Also what I would do for the veg eoom you probably only need supplemental lighting for extending your winter days and I would run those incandescant rope lights down the rows of plants. Granted you won't get much growth if any, but it will extend your daytime for a fraction of the cost of running mh, and it would only be for a few hours a day so you really wouldn't lose much veg growth. Honestly you could go with any lighting to extend your daylight. That being said I'm an electrician (we use the rope lights I mentioned for temp lighting before we have power on a jobsite) and I come across various light fixtures all the time. I'm currently sitting on 14 4' 3 lamp t8 flourescants from an office renovation that they were going to throw away. I don't know if you would rather use halides to extend your daytimes so you get that extra few hours of growth but it seems like if your gonna be growing trees it would be cheaper to use supplemental lighting only to keep them from flowering rather than to get 2 extra hrs growth considering you will only be using them in the winter. Depending on what u wanna do, I would gladly give u my 14 4' 3 lamp t8s as they could cover possibly your whole veg room. I can upload a pic if you like as well. Just throwing it out there. I took them cuz they were gonna be thrown out, are actually pretty bright and am gonna use a couple for side lighting in my room. They are still in great shape also,
> 
> Please don't take my post as if I'm stating the obvious, I'm just tryin to help and know u are very knowledgable and already knew everything I jyst said lol.


Good news on the Jacks. Sounds like you got a real winner there.

I also like a hoop green house roof. I prefer framed walls to make mounting HVAC gear easier. As far as lighting I'll have 2 needs. 1, to inhibit the dark and keep plants blooming, and 2, supplemental HPS lighting for those foggy days. Thanks for your kind offer, but I believe we'll be in good shape with getting the lights. I'm pretty savy on most of the construction. My main interest is methods by which to darken the flower room without creating an oven. I thought of some tight wires being pulled length wise, and having the blackout covering attached to steel rings that slide on the wires. This could make it easy for 1 person to just pull the cover over the whole length. But then there's the ends. Hmmmm? Ideas?


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## collective gardener (Mar 5, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> What size greenhouse are you talking about here? LxWxH? Straight walls with sloped roof? Hoop style? It makes a big difference.


 
I'm thinking around 12 x 25 and 10 x 20, bloom and veg.


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## yowzza (Mar 5, 2011)

Hey CG - I just finally caught back up on the thread and I just gotta say things are lookin great! 
Thanks for posting, lots of good info here


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## Luger187 (Mar 5, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Good news on the Jacks. Sounds like you got a real winner there.
> 
> I also like a hoop green house roof. I prefer framed walls to make mounting HVAC gear easier. As far as lighting I'll have 2 needs. 1, to inhibit the dark and keep plants blooming, and 2, supplemental HPS lighting for those foggy days. Thanks for your kind offer, but I believe we'll be in good shape with getting the lights. I'm pretty savy on most of the construction. My main interest is methods by which to darken the flower room without creating an oven. I thought of some tight wires being pulled length wise, and having the blackout covering attached to steel rings that slide on the wires. This could make it easy for 1 person to just pull the cover over the whole length. But then there's the ends. Hmmmm? Ideas?



that sounds like a good idea. is it windy in that area? what if the wind catches that big blackout tarp? maybe on all 4 corners, u should have something to lock them in place. then just unhook it when u want to take the blackout off


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## watchm3spec (Mar 5, 2011)

Wow this grow has truly been inspiring keep those updates coming man!
My friend grows super skunk, ak-47 and bubblegum in a warehouse grow op (half organic soil and half coco but moving to all coco now), he trashed the bubblegum mother though but both his super skunk and ak-47 plants are amazing. Super skunk smells so dank you just brush against the plants and the stench gets released 

These strains are both very potent and easy to grow with quite different effects.. Now hes looking for some new strains to add in (hes only been doing this grow for around 6 months so far) but I can recommend the super skunk its really AAA+ smoke!


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## TheLastWood (Mar 5, 2011)

Here's some pics of greenhouses n some ideas on how to supplement and blackout

Here's one of supplemental light to extend daytime






Here's one with slide out tarps built over the plants instead of the whole greenhouse
Sorry its sideways my phones my only camera and computer






Here's a few with tarps over the whole greenhouse 






Can't see the tarp in this one but same idea not hoop house tho







I think your idea about running the tarp length wise is easiest and best, here a pic of that where u can't see the tarp tho






All from my favorite book by jorge cervantes


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 5, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> You know, these dispensaries are charging so much that people in need just can't afford their meds. These laws were enabled so that people could collectively grow their meds. All we are doing is facilitating the grow part. If a member has some space to grow in and another couple members have time to help with the grow, a garden is formed. To me, this kind of operation is much more within the spirit of the law than a storefront operation.


Who drops the cash for the cost....you....or is it a pooled together thing??......like you have 10 members and something cost $1000....everyone shell out $100?????


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## Luger187 (Mar 6, 2011)

ENDLSCYCLE said:


> Who drops the cash for the cost....you....or is it a pooled together thing??......like you have 10 members and something cost $1000....everyone shell out $100?????


thats how i would do it. but i believe CG has a friend that invested 60k into this grow. then the other patients slowly pay him back when they "buy" the product from them. technically the money is just to cover costs, so as time goes on, the prices get lower

sorry if im thinking of another thread, but i do think it was this one


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## collective gardener (Mar 6, 2011)

Luger187 said:


> that sounds like a good idea. is it windy in that area? what if the wind catches that big blackout tarp? maybe on all 4 corners, u should have something to lock them in place. then just unhook it when u want to take the blackout off


Yeah, the wind could really cause a problem, eh? It's gotta be easy for one person, yet strong as hell. Maybe the blackout settup inside the greenhouse?


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## collective gardener (Mar 6, 2011)

watchm3spec said:


> Wow this grow has truly been inspiring keep those updates coming man!
> My friend grows super skunk, ak-47 and bubblegum in a warehouse grow op (half organic soil and half coco but moving to all coco now), he trashed the bubblegum mother though but both his super skunk and ak-47 plants are amazing. Super skunk smells so dank you just brush against the plants and the stench gets released
> 
> These strains are both very potent and easy to grow with quite different effects.. Now hes looking for some new strains to add in (hes only been doing this grow for around 6 months so far) but I can recommend the super skunk its really AAA+ smoke!


Nice greenhouse grow. Is the only light through the roof?

Thanks for the tip on the Super Skunk. Not to be a snob, but we only use clones from growers we know, and of plants that we have seen grow and tested the final product. Fortunately, I have quite a few growing buddies producing some of the best buds to be found in Cali. The guy who gave us the Bubbas and Lavander cross has had the lights burning for the last 20+ years! He estimates that he's gone through over 1000 different phenos of 50+ strains to end up with his current stable. His grow op is a high-grader's wet dream. Without access to these genetics, I would of had to do a home grow for at least a year to find 1 or 2 truly special plants. It seems like here in Cali, there's only 2 grades of smoke: Top 1%...and everything else.


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## lochem (Mar 6, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Nice greenhouse grow. Is the only light through the roof?
> 
> Thanks for the tip on the Super Skunk. Not to be a snob, but we only use clones from growers we know, and of plants that we have seen grow and tested the final product. Fortunately, I have quite a few growing buddies producing some of the best buds to be found in Cali. The guy who gave us the Bubbas and Lavander cross has had the lights burning for the last 20+ years! He estimates that he's gone through over 1000 different phenos of 50+ strains to end up with his current stable. His grow op is a high-grader's wet dream. Without access to these genetics, I would of had to do a home grow for at least a year to find 1 or 2 truly special plants. It seems like here in Cali, there's only 2 grades of smoke: Top 1%...and everything else.


interesting. 
im not in Cali (yet) but we got some great beans imported from an "award-winning" breeder friend from CA. sent us a bunch of OG Kush x Bubba Kush beans and thank Gd we in our little collective are growing the top 1% out here


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## collective gardener (Mar 6, 2011)

ENDLSCYCLE said:


> Who drops the cash for the cost....you....or is it a pooled together thing??......like you have 10 members and something cost $1000....everyone shell out $100?????


 
Luger's got it right. Most of our members have serious health problems and couldn't afford to shell out the necessary funds up front. We started this thing for people who have really big medication needs and can't afford to pay dispensary prices. We have one member who can only vaporize kief...and he needs alot of it. Can you imagine how expensive that would be paying dispensary prices? The edibles we make for patients who can't/won't smoke are made from buds, not trim. There is no way to consistantly dose edibles using trim. Once again, this is a product intensive medication. By having an investor capitolize the operation, the patients can spread out the payback over a period of many years. Even with the loan payback figured into the med price, we'll still be around 1/2 what they would pay at the dispensary. Keep in mind, forming a private collective of this type is easiest if a group of patients get together and decide to collectively produce their own medication. Furthermore, we feel that our structure fits within the letter and the spirit of the current laws. If we find ourselves overproducing for our existing members, we may add a few more members on a case by case basis. I doubt I would (as many growing collectives do) sell overages to other dispensaries.


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## collective gardener (Mar 6, 2011)

lochem said:


> interesting.
> im not in Cali (yet) but we got some great beans imported from an "award-winning" breeder friend from CA. sent us a bunch of OG Kush x Bubba Kush beans and thank Gd we in our little collective are growing the top 1% out here


If you got genetics that good from one bag of seeds from one breeder consider yourselves very VERY lucky. I've found that there is a HUGE variety of quality within each strain. Even strains that are "stabe" show alot of difference from seed to seed. The reason I say that I would spend a year finding the right plants is that it can take 100's of seeds of the same strain from the same breeder to get, what I feel, is that one special lady, worthy of basing a multi light grow op on.

I hope you did get lucky and ended up with a real ass-kicker. I'm sure your members appreciate it.


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## watchm3spec (Mar 6, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Nice greenhouse grow. Is the only light through the roof?
> 
> Thanks for the tip on the Super Skunk. Not to be a snob, but we only use clones from growers we know, and of plants that we have seen grow and tested the final product. Fortunately, I have quite a few growing buddies producing some of the best buds to be found in Cali. The guy who gave us the Bubbas and Lavander cross has had the lights burning for the last 20+ years! He estimates that he's gone through over 1000 different phenos of 50+ strains to end up with his current stable. His grow op is a high-grader's wet dream. Without access to these genetics, I would of had to do a home grow for at least a year to find 1 or 2 truly special plants. It seems like here in Cali, there's only 2 grades of smoke: Top 1%...and everything else.


Yea I built my glasshouse a few years ago, my grow is in a small room at the back. I just built a wall to seperate it from the main room. Its just the free sunlight coming through which is also dimmed by the frosted panels so I have to elevate my plants right up there or I get quite alot of stretch. I do have power inside there but I only run oscillating fans... I do have grow lights its just if I switch on a grow lamp in there the place lights up like an orange lighthouse haha...


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## Luger187 (Mar 6, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Yeah, the wind could really cause a problem, eh? It's gotta be easy for one person, yet strong as hell. Maybe the blackout settup inside the greenhouse?


the blackout inside could work as long as the lights arent hanging(i think). the wires/chains that hang them would get in the way of pulling the curtain across. idk how u would get a light proof seal around them while still easily doing the curtain thing. maybe have the lights on the walls, facing sideways onto the sides/tops of the plants? instead of hanging from the top... they would still get most of their light from the sun



collective gardener said:


> Nice greenhouse grow. Is the only light through the roof?
> 
> Thanks for the tip on the Super Skunk. Not to be a snob, but we only use clones from growers we know, and of plants that we have seen grow and tested the final product. Fortunately, I have quite a few growing buddies producing some of the best buds to be found in Cali. The guy who gave us the Bubbas and Lavander cross has had the lights burning for the last 20+ years! He estimates that he's gone through over 1000 different phenos of 50+ strains to end up with his current stable. His grow op is a high-grader's wet dream. Without access to these genetics, I would of had to do a home grow for at least a year to find 1 or 2 truly special plants. *It seems like here in Cali, there's only 2 grades of smoke: Top 1%...and everything else.*


thats SO true! theres the really dank nugs, and the rest... lol



watchm3spec said:


> Yea I built my glasshouse a few years ago, my grow is in a small room at the back. I just built a wall to seperate it from the main room. Its just the free sunlight coming through which is also dimmed by the frosted panels so I have to elevate my plants right up there or I get quite alot of stretch. I do have power inside there but I only run oscillating fans... I do have grow lights its just if I switch on a grow lamp in there the place lights up like an orange lighthouse haha...


i could see that being a problem haha. maybe u could do a removable blackout curtain so the light doesnt get OUT. with proper ventilation it'd work


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## collective gardener (Mar 6, 2011)

Hold the presses. I got it. Blackout option #2: Build a dark room onto the end of the bloom house and wheel the plamts into the room at night. It would be a pain, but with a concrete floor and plants on carts, it could be done. HVAC would become more difficult. I usually put a big fuck-all swamp cooler (or 2!) on the end on the green house. This creates a nice cool breeze right through the unit. I guess I need to ventilate the dark room as well. Probably need to dehumidify it also. Hmmmmm. Can anyone build on that idea?


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 6, 2011)

I'm trying, Gardener, but motivation is hard to come by today.


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## mrduke (Mar 6, 2011)

maybe this is kinda off topic but .... can you build a hoop style green house w/o have any other climate control ? just have the ends open or somthing I'd love to give this a shot in the backyard. lights and black out arnt neccasary unless you plan on multiple harvest correct?


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## TheLastWood (Mar 6, 2011)

Yeah you could do that gardener I would just use 2x6's and plywood and built platforms like 8x8 or whatever size ans either put wheels on them or move em around with a pallet jack. 

I also had a few ideas on how to blackout. One would be the tarp is inside, jus run 2 pieces of conduit down the entirfe length of the house, just below the cieling and then drape the tarp over that. Then you could just pull it and it would slide down the pipes. You could either hang the pipes from the cieling or have posts coming out of the ground to hold them (that would be better cuz then you could hang other things off the posts too) and you could use multiple tarps that overlap so you don't need one huge one. So its inside and the wind won't mess with it. Does this make sense?

Also if you built the house like a triangle instead you could just have 1 tarp roll down each side and when ur not usin em roll em up to the top n strap or tie em up.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 6, 2011)

I thought that might be hard to understand so I scribbled out the one I think is the best idea, with the tarp on the inside sliding down conduits. I know its a horrid drawing its just to help explain what I meant







A scribbled side and front view. This would be incredibly easy to build.


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## yowzza (Mar 6, 2011)

Just curious what type of material people have used to keep moths out of their garden? 
Last season I had some greenhouse plastic and screening and some still got thru!


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## collective gardener (Mar 6, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I'm trying, Gardener, but motivation is hard to come by today.


Take a break, Wolf. We bought a new vaporizer to keep at the grow today. Therefore, my motivation is par with yours. Why is there this little part of me that just wants to medicate, eat, and watch vids all day?


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## collective gardener (Mar 6, 2011)

mrduke said:


> maybe this is kinda off topic but .... can you build a hoop style green house w/o have any other climate control ? just have the ends open or somthing I'd love to give this a shot in the backyard. lights and black out arnt neccasary unless you plan on multiple harvest correct?


 
Duke, it really depends on your local climate. Here in so cal, it's not too much of a problem. We live in a breezy area close to the beach, so there's some natural air movement. Personally, I'd install a swamp cooler on one end and vents on the other at the minimum. The fan runs all day and the pump is on a thermostat.


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## collective gardener (Mar 6, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> I thought that might be hard to understand so I scribbled out the one I think is the best idea, with the tarp on the inside sliding down conduits. I know its a horrid drawing its just to help explain what I meant
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I dig the drawing. That dude pulling the tarp is priceless. It looks just like Helper D.

I like the idea. I like it alot. It also enables us to do everything in one house...just cover a section. This is a winner, Wood. Nice work.


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## collective gardener (Mar 6, 2011)

yowzza said:


> Just curious what type of material people have used to keep moths out of their garden?
> Last season I had some greenhouse plastic and screening and some still got thru!


 
Outdoor? I don't think you can stop em outside with any kind of covering.


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## dankshizzle (Mar 6, 2011)

Moths beung a problem?


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## TheLastWood (Mar 7, 2011)

Right on bro I don't kno where ur greenhouse locations gonna be if its in public or not but I read about some paint for glass that let's the light through but you can't see through it ill look for it later but I'm sure there is some light lost


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## onepointsixoneeight (Mar 7, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Wood covered it. Thanks. I believe that 62 watts/sq ft isn't overkill. While the yield may remain close with less light, I wouldn't get those ultra dense nugs that california patients expect. If you're using less than 50 watts/sq ft, you're going to lose yield. I have a friend who uses 80.


Wow, Okay. With CO2 at ~1500ppm could one potentially use 100+watts/sq ft?


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## collective gardener (Mar 7, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Right on bro I don't kno where ur greenhouse locations gonna be if its in public or not but I read about some paint for glass that let's the light through but you can't see through it ill look for it later but I'm sure there is some light lost


I was thinking of building from framed walls and sheeting the walls in opaque Lexan and the roof in clear Lexan. I've used a light meter to check tranmission through opaque Lexan, and the lighting strength is brighter than from a 1000watt HPS 1 foot from the bulb. Thats good enough for me. Besides, the roof would be clear. Another benefit to corrugated Lexan is that it breaks up the outlines. Even through the clear, you can see that there are plants, but you can't see what type. 

Every greenhouse I've had, I've used a traditional framed structure. It makes fan, light, and shelf installation soooo much easier than with purlin and hoop construction. I also like having 6' vertical walls to get large plants right out to the edges. The last one I framed with steel studs coated with Boeshield anti corrosive (it forms a waxy coating). Steel studs are cheap and 2 guys can build any reasonably sized house in 1 day. I keep looking at the commercial greenhouse kits, but the nice ones are very expensive and the cheap ones are very wimpy. Since this thing needs to be 100% climate control, I'll need plenty of options for roof openings, fixed exhaust fans, and possibly a ductless mini split air conditioner.


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 7, 2011)

I cant wait to see how you do your outdoor CG.


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## dankog (Mar 7, 2011)

Everything is looking great! I was wondering what the make and model of your RO purifier you posted a picture of--


Thanks for keeping us posting--I'm learning so much!


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## mellokitty (Mar 7, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> I cant wait to see how you do your outdoor CG.


i second that.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 8, 2011)

Yeah I'm a wood framer (semi-retired due to economy any lack of residential construction) so I kinda hate that steel stud shit. So weak and useless for bearing weight unless you use the "real steel" studs. Not that cheap aluminum looking steel. And now that I'm doing commercial electric I realise how much "real" framing is lost to steel stud. It would probably work great for a greenhouse tho. You make a lot of good points and reasons to frame the walls tho and I have also looked at the pre fabbed greenhouses amazed at the prices. I could never spend that much on something I could build myself. I've been thinking about building a greenhouse in my backyard but even if you couldn't see in I think it dtaws to much attention. I would love the space. I love some of the new exotic types of bud but am a sucker for some older well developed, legendary strains. 
Romulan, c99, and many mostly to full sativas that I wish I had room to grow to their full potential.


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## collective gardener (Mar 8, 2011)

onepointsixoneeight said:


> Wow, Okay. With CO2 at ~1500ppm could one potentially use 100+watts/sq ft?


While I'm sure one use 100 watt/sq ft, I'm not sure it would be efficient. Keep in mind the diminishing returns factor. The heat load of that density lighting would be pretty gnarly. Could it be done? Of course. Would it yield double what 50 watt/sq ft would yield? No way.


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## collective gardener (Mar 8, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> I cant wait to see how you do your outdoor CG.


 
You and me both.


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## collective gardener (Mar 8, 2011)

dankog said:


> Everything is looking great! I was wondering what the make and model of your RO purifier you posted a picture of--
> 
> 
> Thanks for keeping us posting--I'm learning so much!


 
The RO unit is a HydroLogic Stealth 200. (200 gpd). We love it.


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## collective gardener (Mar 8, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yeah I'm a wood framer (semi-retired due to economy any lack of residential construction) so I kinda hate that steel stud shit. So weak and useless for bearing weight unless you use the "real steel" studs. Not that cheap aluminum looking steel. And now that I'm doing commercial electric I realise how much "real" framing is lost to steel stud. It would probably work great for a greenhouse tho. You make a lot of good points and reasons to frame the walls tho and I have also looked at the pre fabbed greenhouses amazed at the prices. I could never spend that much on something I could build myself. I've been thinking about building a greenhouse in my backyard but even if you couldn't see in I think it dtaws to much attention. I would love the space. I love some of the new exotic types of bud but am a sucker for some older well developed, legendary strains.
> Romulan, c99, and many mostly to full sativas that I wish I had room to grow to their full potential.


 
I, too, am from the wood framing generation. However, I have seen what steel studs can do on many a commercial project. We can get them in just about any gauge for load bearing, and, once you get used to them, they're faster to put up than wood. They are flimsy as hell until you sheet them. Then they're stiff as fuck without the weight. The reason I went with wood on our warehouse is that I need to walk on the roof, and we have no weather concerns.

I'm a sucker for strains that everyone else likes. Lol. I do usually grow a 12 week sativa for myself and select friends. I just haven't started one yet in this grow. I'm going to order some of that Acapulco Gold from Barney's...se if I can get a good pheno from a batch. I don't have very high hopes. It would be fun, though, to whip out some AG during a quite evening with good friends. Talk about old school. Damn.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 8, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I, too, am from the wood framing generation. However, I have seen what steel studs can do on many a commercial project. We can get them in just about any gauge for load bearing, and, once you get used to them, they're faster to put up than wood. They are flimsy as hell until you sheet them. Then they're stiff as fuck without the weight. The reason I went with wood on our warehouse is that I need to walk on the roof, and we have no weather concerns.
> 
> I'm a sucker for strains that everyone else likes. Lol. I do usually grow a 12 week sativa for myself and select friends. I just haven't started one yet in this grow. I'm going to order some of that Acapulco Gold from Barney's...se if I can get a good pheno from a batch. I don't have very high hopes. It would be fun, though, to whip out some AG during a quite evening with good friends. Talk about old school. Damn.


I just ordered the Acapulco Gold, and I thought i was the only one who wanted to bring and old school back, hope the BF wont let me down and i get a good batch from them.


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## collective gardener (Mar 8, 2011)

Some new pics here. I've been testing a Bubba using soiless (like the whole room) and another using DWC. Here's the results. Wow.








Here's some pics of how we tie down our topped plants:





Here's 4 Lavander x Afgan x Purple Kush that we are test flowering. Ran out of room in the main bloom area, so I threw up this wing with a 600 just for these girls.



So, as you can see, the DWC plant smoked the soiless by far. I've never seen a plant do sooooo much better in hydro. That bucket is a simple home built DWC unit with an air stone and 1 small air pump feeding 2 buckets. The feed is the same as the soiless (Cutting Edge). We're going to test flower 2 DWC plants. If they continue to blow doors on the soiless, I may have to make a change already. DWC is my favorite hydro settup. I like that it's an individual res for each plant, so any water problems will be limitted to one plant. Moving them around is totally easy. I also like the simplicity of no pumps or emitters.

We've totally filled the entire 200 sq ft flower area. I have 2 - 1000 watt ballasts and 2 - 600 watt ballasts powered up and ready, but not much space. I think we're going to sacrafice some working/walking area and hang 2 air cooled reflectors for the 1000's and 2 Adjustawings for the 600's. I can then throw away that cheap wing in the pic. We still have plants in veg that are ready to flower, so it has to be done. Helper D said he doesn't mind the extra work of moving plants 3 and 4 times for every watering. While he's doing that, I'm going to start building DWC buckets!

I included a pic of how we tie down our plants. I have mixed feelings on this technique. It makes for a large diameter plant, but many of the growing shoots are small. I'll have to see how we yield to determine what changes we may want to make.


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## collective gardener (Mar 8, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> I just ordered the Acapulco Gold, and I thought i was the only one who wanted to bring and old school back, hope the BF wont let me down and i get a good batch from them.


We want it all back. Congrats to all breeders who put in the hours to get these strains back into action, PLEASE let us all know how the AG comes out.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 8, 2011)

when it gets here Im started a couple seeing that its Fem i should be ok on that end. when I start them Ill do a journal just for them and let ya know
P.S. give helper d mad props from me I dont think enough people on here give him as much credit as you dont want him felling left out is all


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## rasputin71 (Mar 8, 2011)

5ga hydro vs 1ga soilless seems a little lopsided.


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## SCCA (Mar 8, 2011)

looking very nice gardener! that dwc plant is awesome, how big are those leaves? i just tied some plants down this weekend as well. you may want to super crop those inner branches to thicken them up. i usually give them a week to turn up toward the light then trim out any small, wimpy branches. do you have girdling problems from wrapping the tie all the way around the stem? if you have never seen it before, the tie can cut into the stem as it swells and damage it. it can kill the stem, but you pay much closer attention to your plants than that.


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## budXL (Mar 8, 2011)

Just read the entire thread! great stuff! 

Have you looked into chameleon plasma lights? I was just given one, but it was my first grow, ofcourse i was lucky with a 3500 dolar set up for a small grow lol they are a couple weeks from finished but the buds look amazing. 

Do you know anything about these lights?


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## budXL (Mar 8, 2011)

forgot to sub, cant wait to see your hug buds!


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## TheLastWood (Mar 8, 2011)

LiI've seen those plasma lights and the spectrum looks phenominal but with the 3500$+ price tag I doubt they'll be catching on anytime soon. Especially since hid,s have been around so long and are so trusted. 

Yea those dwx vs soiless results are undeniable, especially considering the dwc won't get rootbound. But I know the soilless would have the same results over soil and will have a better taste than the dwc. I qlwo enjoy the simplicity and isolation of dwc. Have you ever seen a farm kit? Its basically a 4 inch drip ring that has a tube that goes down into the dwc bucket, and hooks up to the 2nd outlet on the airpump and turns it into a dwc drip system. For 15$ its a cool deal


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## collective gardener (Mar 9, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> when it gets here Im started a couple seeing that its Fem i should be ok on that end. when I start them Ill do a journal just for them and let ya know
> P.S. give helper d mad props from me I dont think enough people on here give him as much credit as you dont want him felling left out is all


I'll pass on the kind words to Helper D. He truly is the horsepower behind this grow. Up until 2 months ago, he'd never grown. I knew he was a great worker, as he has worked for me for quite some time at my other business. But, this is his calling. He knows everything that is going on with every plant. I could call him right now and ask "when was plant # 4-7 pruned last?", and he'd have an answer. He's totally comitted to this grow. Since we started the construction, he's been there 7 days a week...some days until midnight. My commercial growing friends are already offering him additional work if he has extra time. He doesn't know it yet, but he's getting a BIG suprise on the first harvest.


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## collective gardener (Mar 9, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> LiI've seen those plasma lights and the spectrum looks phenominal but with the 3500$+ price tag I doubt they'll be catching on anytime soon. Especially since hid,s have been around so long and are so trusted.
> 
> Yea those dwx vs soiless results are undeniable, especially considering the dwc won't get rootbound. But I know the soilless would have the same results over soil and will have a better taste than the dwc. I qlwo enjoy the simplicity and isolation of dwc. Have you ever seen a farm kit? Its basically a 4 inch drip ring that has a tube that goes down into the dwc bucket, and hooks up to the 2nd outlet on the airpump and turns it into a dwc drip system. For 15$ its a cool deal


Where do I get the farm kit? I've seen complete systems with that settup, but have never seen just the drip settup. I really want to try that.


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## collective gardener (Mar 9, 2011)

rasputin71 said:


> 5ga hydro vs 1ga soilless seems a little lopsided.


While I may have gotten a tiny bit more growth out of a 5 gallon soiless pot, I doubt it would be anywhere close to that DWC. I have dozens of plants right now in 5 and 10 gallon soiless, but nothing has exploded in growth like that DWC did. Those clones have only been rooted a little more than a week, meaning the 1 gallon pot isn't anywhere close to rootbound. Let's see how they do in bloom.


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## collective gardener (Mar 9, 2011)

SCCA said:


> looking very nice gardener! that dwc plant is awesome, how big are those leaves? i just tied some plants down this weekend as well. you may want to super crop those inner branches to thicken them up. i usually give them a week to turn up toward the light then trim out any small, wimpy branches. do you have girdling problems from wrapping the tie all the way around the stem? if you have never seen it before, the tie can cut into the stem as it swells and damage it. it can kill the stem, but you pay much closer attention to your plants than that.


I don't know if you can see it in the picture, but the tie is just wrapped around the branch twice...not twisted at all. I've seen what can happen when twisted...the tie ended up totally embedded in the branch. However, the branch lived...I don't know how. If you just wrap it twice, the branch will just expand the wraps as it grows.


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## collective gardener (Mar 9, 2011)

budXL said:


> Just read the entire thread! great stuff!
> 
> Have you looked into chameleon plasma lights? I was just given one, but it was my first grow, ofcourse i was lucky with a 3500 dolar set up for a small grow lol they are a couple weeks from finished but the buds look amazing.
> 
> Do you know anything about these lights?


Do us a favor and post some pictures of the light and the plants.


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 9, 2011)

oohhhhhh Proto Plasma

[youtube]atrKO1tnNBY[/youtube]

I'd LOVE one of those


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## yowzza (Mar 9, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Some new pics here. I've been testing a Bubba using soiless (like the whole room) and another using DWC. Here's the results. Wow.
> 
> So, as you can see, the DWC plant smoked the soiless by far. I've never seen a plant do sooooo much better in hydro. That bucket is a simple home built DWC unit with an air stone and 1 small air pump feeding 2 buckets. The feed is the same as the soiless (Cutting Edge). We're going to test flower 2 DWC plants. If they continue to blow doors on the soiless, I may have to make a change already. DWC is my favorite hydro settup. I like that it's an individual res for each plant, so any water problems will be limitted to one plant. Moving them around is totally easy. I also like the simplicity of no pumps or emitters.
> 
> ...


CG - Im actually running cutting edge nutes in 5 gal DWC as well  And I tell ya its funny the things you can get excited over, I say that because I was having difficulties finding an economical way of moving the buckets around then I found something similar to these plant caddies (but locally)
.... http://www.nextag.com/Gardman-Usa-R161-Plant-800097038/prices-html 
I just wanted to share that with you in case you can use them as well.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 9, 2011)

The farm kits are great for putting clones in dwc when the roots aren't big enough to drink the water yet. They sell them in my local hydro and are just like the setup you have seen but just the drip ring, 2 tubes (I think 1/4 in. Maybe smaller) and the 2 tubes are inside a slightly bigger pipe just to hold them together. Basically the air pump blows on one tube which actually loops back down into the water and the air bubbles actually push the water up the other tube to the drip ring. Its pretty simple yet sophisticated. They have them in my sunlight supply catalog right next to the waterfarm. 

And D sounds like a good guy n friend to have around. Can't say I'm not jealous tho.

Yeah those plasmas are badass. My gardener will be the one to drop 20 g's and buy a few?lol

Here's a pic of farm kit with part #. Sorry all my pics are big I can't minimize them on my phone cuz I can't use riu's upload.


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## collective gardener (Mar 9, 2011)

yowzza said:


> CG - Im actually running cutting edge nutes in 5 gal DWC as well  And I tell ya its funny the things you can get excited over, I say that because I was having difficulties finding an economical way of moving the buckets around then I found something similar to these plant caddies (but locally)
> .... http://www.nextag.com/Gardman-Usa-R161-Plant-800097038/prices-html
> I just wanted to share that with you in case you can use them as well.


Hey, thanks for keeping us in mind. Those will work great for our DWC's in 5's. I did notice that a bucket full of water is heavier than a bucket full of wet coco. LOL. I just ordered some casters from Ebay to build plant movers for the 10 gallon pots. These wheels are pretty heavy duty and cheap as I've found...basically a buck each for 2" wheels.
http://cgi.ebay.com/48-NEW-2-SWIVEL-CASTER-WHEEL-SET-HOME-BUSINESS-CASTERS-/180634371123?pt=BI_Casters&hash=item2a0ea5c433

So nice to hear from another Cutting Edge user. Are you happy with the nutrients? Which ones do you run? We run the Micro/Grow/Bloom+MagAmp. We do not run Uncle Johns or Plant Amp. I _always_ add some Sulfur to whatever nutes I am using. This is why I add MagAmp. Plant Amp and Uncle Johns seem like a waste of money to me. I mean, one is just Calcium and one is just Potasium, right? 

Tell me about your DWC. Is it just a pump, or is it the Farm Kit Wood mentioned? Any problems with it? It really seems too simple to be true. I mean, DWC was truly one of the first Hydro settups. A bucket of water and an air pump gets you in business. Then the industry comes out with the Turbo Tunnel Hydro Max (with or without pure oxygen enrichment), and everyone forgets about good ol DWC. Funny thing is, I have used Aeroponics, NFT, Ebb-n-Flow, and top fed Hydrotons, but this is my first DWC. This is too funny. If you guys could have seen the Aeroponics settup I designed and built, you would have assumed I had tried the simple stuff and moved on to totally complex. I, actually, just _read_ about the simple stuff and then went on to the totally complex. My Aeroponics settup worked great, but was expensive and complex. I now want to see a test between a cheap little DWC settup and a full blown Aeroponics settup with atomizers, water chillers, and the whole nine yards.


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## collective gardener (Mar 9, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> oohhhhhh Proto Plasma
> 
> [youtube]atrKO1tnNBY[/youtube]
> 
> I'd LOVE one of those


 
As soon as someone can produce an LED or Plasma or Whatever, that meets or exceeds the performance of a 1000 watt HPS without the heat load for under $1,000, I'll buy it. Hell, I'll buy 20 of em...for real. However, from what I've seen, we're not even close. I'm almost thinking of picking up a Stealth LED to compare it to a 600 watt HPS in my bloom room. I've seen all the company testing and I don't trust their tests any more than you guys do. I figure it would help out the entire RIU community if I were to conduct a side by side test. Let's wait till after the first harvest (April 5), and if you guys are interested, I'll test whatever LED the bunch of you feel is the best against an old 600 watt HPS. So, start doing your research on who makes the best LED. And, PLEASE, no LED company shills pushing their product on this thread. If you show up here (I've seen them on other threads), I will be forced to sick this entire group on you.


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## RawBudzski (Mar 9, 2011)

I am post #10 on this Win post. Thus, I am entitled to 33% of all produced from this OP.  thank you.


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## medicine21 (Mar 9, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> So, as you can see, the DWC plant smoked the soiless by far. I've never seen a plant do sooooo much better in hydro. That bucket is a simple home built DWC unit with an air stone and 1 small air pump feeding 2 buckets. ... I like that it's an individual res for each plant, so any water problems will be limitted to one plant. Moving them around is totally easy. I also like the simplicity of no pumps or emitters.
> 
> ...While he's doing that, I'm going to start building DWC buckets!


Is THIS the system that you use for DWC? I wonder how long a plant can live in it if you lose power...



collective gardener said:


> As soon as someone can produce an LED or Plasma or Whatever, that meets or exceeds the performance of a 1000 watt HPS without the heat load for under $1,000, I'll buy it. Hell, I'll buy 20 of em...for real. However, from what I've seen, we're not even close. I'm almost thinking of picking up a Stealth LED to compare it to a 600 watt HPS in my bloom room. I've seen all the company testing and I don't trust their tests any more than you guys do. I figure it would help out the entire RIU community if I were to conduct a side by side test. Let's wait till after the first harvest (April 5), and if you guys are interested, I'll test whatever LED the bunch of you feel is the best against an old 600 watt HPS. So, start doing your research on who makes the best LED. And, PLEASE, no LED company shills pushing their product on this thread. If you show up here (I've seen them on other threads), I will be forced to sick this entire group on you.


I've been researching LEDs for the last few months. The results ARE there, just not to the overly exaggerated manufacturer claims for area coverage and HID power replacement. Be careful bringing up this topic here as your journal may run away with it though.  There are some extreme opinions out there as earlier-gen LED were garbage and they got a bad rep as a result.

There are several successful grows with LEDs that I have seen. Here is one that is a side by side comparison of 600W LED vs 600W HID, LED comes out on top. You can also look up a couple journals right here on RIU by users "dunit" and "ledbudguy" to start.

I would sum up my research on LED lights as follows:

Don't believe any manufacturer claims. ONLY independent grow journals! - REAL results
Don't get any light that has diodes less than 3w. And they will try to confuse you with "3w3", "3w chip" technology, etc...
Budget 70-80% LED power to match (and likely exceed) HID power results. You will need 420-480W of LED to replace that 600W. It would cost you more than $1000 though.
More less powerful lights for a given area is BETTER than less more powerful lights. Interlacing is key with LEDs.


I would be VERY surprised if you got the Spectra 500W from Grow Led Hydro and it did not outperform a 600W HPS. Coincidently, that is the one I would get. Have not see any completed INDEPENDENT journals with StealthGrow yet.


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 9, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> While I may have gotten a tiny bit more growth out of a 5 gallon soiless pot, I doubt it would be anywhere close to that DWC. I have dozens of plants right now in 5 and 10 gallon soiless, but nothing has exploded in growth like that DWC did. Those clones have only been rooted a little more than a week, meaning the 1 gallon pot isn't anywhere close to rootbound. Let's see how they do in bloom.


IDK man, I'd have to disagree with that. The growth difference is huge when there's that much of a difference in container size. Going from a 3 to a 5 you don't see a ton of difference, but yeah.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 9, 2011)

The thing led's seem to be lacking in is penetration.

Plasmas look like they might be the next big thing but not until there affordable to everyone. 

How's the bubbas n lavenders lookin gardener?


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## collective gardener (Mar 9, 2011)

RawBudzski said:


> I am post #10 on this Win post. Thus, I am entitled to 33% of all produced from this OP.  thank you.


Where would you like that sent to?


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## collective gardener (Mar 9, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Is THIS the system that you use for DWC? I wonder how long a plant can live in it if you lose power...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is the DWC system I tried. Yes, power outage could be bad BAD. I would never commit an entire grow to this. However, power outage in many hydro systems would have the same effect. Aeroponic...NFT...to name 2

Let's PLEASE not turn this thread into the oh SOOOOOOO boring LED debate. My fault for engaging. The only topic worse is organic vs. hydro. They just don't go anywhere. When the day comes that I pick up an LED for testing, I'll post it right here. AND, I won't purchase said LED without first getting input from the group as to which one to get for testing. Until then, we're rocking these 1000's.


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## collective gardener (Mar 9, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> IDK man, I'd have to disagree with that. The growth difference is huge when there's that much of a difference in container size. Going from a 3 to a 5 you don't see a ton of difference, but yeah.


 
I agree with you! You can see that I grow in 10 gallon pots. However, in one week of veg, I don't believe the difference to be that much. As the plant grows and begins to feel the container, the difference becomes more dramatic. In the interest of fairness, Helper D transplanted a group of Bubbas into 5 gallon pots of coco. We'll give them a few days to dig in and re-visit the competition. The DWC plant is now known as Godzilla...and Toyko better look the fuck out. 

Don't think that I'm gonna get all emotional about some killer hydro growth. In the last 20 years I've built every hydro system there is. The extreme growth always gets me exited...and I always come back to soiless. With this much at stake, you can't beat soiless for dependability, performance, and its forgiving nature. About 10 years ago I put an aeroponic system in a CO2 enriched climate controlled greenhouse. The performance blew my mind....double the soiless! So, I expanded to the whole greenhouse on the next crop. Mid bloom cycle I developed a pathogen in the res and lost the entire crop. Now, this could be avoided with a chiller, but I'm still afraid to commit an entire grow to turbo charged systems. For now, Godzilla will get a dozen or so friends.


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## collective gardener (Mar 9, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> The thing led's seem to be lacking in is penetration.
> 
> Plasmas look like they might be the next big thing but not until there affordable to everyone.
> 
> How's the bubbas n lavenders lookin gardener?


I totally agree on the LEDs penetration faults.

The plasma seem the most exiting. Perfect spectrum and lots of penetration? I want that!

Bubbas are wonderful. 25 days from harvesting 11 plants.

I'm very exited about the Lavanders, which are actually Lavander x Afgan x Purple Kush, back crossed with Afgan. The guy I got em from said it was the biggest yield he's every gotten from a true top shelf quality strain. The are wild in veg, requiring lots of trimming. But, once in bloom (I've had one in for 5 days), they turn into perfect little bushy christmas trees with no stretch. I'll send a pic.


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## lochem (Mar 10, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I totally agree on the LEDs penetration faults.
> 
> The plasma seem the most exiting. Perfect spectrum and lots of penetration? I want that!
> 
> ...


Sorry to sound like a noob, but what kind of trimming is necessary with wild vegetation?


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## collective gardener (Mar 10, 2011)

lochem said:


> Sorry to sound like a noob, but what kind of trimming is necessary with wild vegetation?


You'd really have to see these things to understand. They get so crazy bushy with leaves tangled up with eachother. We just thin them a little to even out the canopy. I rarely trim plants in veg, but the grower who gave me these came by and showed us what he had been doing to increase yield. I totally trust his techniques wth these plants. He's been working with them forever.


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## budXL (Mar 10, 2011)

first time grow, I was given the Chameleon genesis II plasma light
I am using C02 w/ fuzzy logic and all house and garden line hydro, in hydrotin smart pots not sure what the strain is...

was given the plants way late in veg and had to top the really lanky plants, they ended up stretching much more than i planned.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 10, 2011)

Wow first grow and givena plasma? That's fuckin badass!

Yeah you shoujld give those lavender afghans a shorter name lol. That's why I just said lavenders. Maybe Purple LAB (Lav. Afg. Bx)(if there purple)Sound like an awesome combination tho and a god outdoor strain too. 

Mm I've got some plushberrys germing just goin into coco today. Can't wait man. Plus I just put in a big order for attitudes promo. I've gotten seeds from some dispenseries and sime are great(I'm really happy with my jack herers) but some are a huge let down and waste of time. Its nice you can get clones from ppl you know and trust and good genetics without ordering online from seed. Genetics are key.

EDIT: just wanted to say I've rly grown to love riu and this is by far myfavorite thread.I get as excited checking in here as I do igoing in my garden every day.

EDIT X2: thought of an awesome name for the crosses you have, Lafghan(laughgan) lol. Thought it was kinda clever. I know you can't just name your friends breed but we could call it that lol.


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## xglassstaticx (Mar 10, 2011)

legally flying why did this guy say all this shit to you

Fuck you legally flying. and your mom and your stupid ass avatar. you are a fuckin dick. Eat a giant dick. . Im glad your just just an avatar cus I would seriously whoop your ass you fuckin asshole shut the Fuck up you little flea ass bitch


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## collective gardener (Mar 10, 2011)

budXL said:


> View attachment 1485409View attachment 1485410View attachment 1485411
> 
> first time grow, I was given the Chameleon genesis II plasma light
> I am using C02 w/ fuzzy logic and all house and garden line hydro, in hydrotin smart pots not sure what the strain is...
> ...


That's alot of high tech gear for a first time grow. Now that you've got the Hogzilla settup you can work on getting that canopy right.


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## collective gardener (Mar 10, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Wow first grow and givena plasma? That's fuckin badass!
> 
> Yeah you shoujld give those lavender afghans a shorter name lol. That's why I just said lavenders. Maybe Purple LAB (Lav. Afg. Bx)(if there purple)Sound like an awesome combination tho and a god outdoor strain too.
> 
> ...


I hear ya on the seed thing. I _do not_ want to _ever_ have to order seeds again. I truly believe that here in Cali we have the highest standard for top shelf weed. This is not to brag, or whatever. It's just a combination of legal meds, a long and proud history of NorCal outdoor growing, and the fact that many world class strains were developed here and/or from stock originating here. Combine all these with a huge population and you have the best green on the planet. As a grower this means some pretty stiff competition. Remember, anyone can go online and order seeds, grow up a few mothers and start cropping. If you're a great grower you may get lucky and come across a good seed. BUT, chances are you'll be like a guy we met last week who did just that and doesn't understand why nobody wants his weed...at any price. He grew La Conf and Super Skunk. His growing techniques could use some improvement, but it really wouldn't matter too much. Niether weed stood out. They both looked just like what everyone seems to be trying to unload here: Good solid weed...but not GREAT weed. What I'm getting at is even though all these cup winning seeds are available, highgrading is still needed to get something that will stand out. I don't mean highgrading with 10 seeds. I mean 100, or 200, or 500...

This is all just my opinion. I feel that there are only 2 ways to start a grow: 1) With a known clone that you've seen grow and smoked, or 2) Spend a year or so with a small highgrading grow to select a couple mothers.

Wood, the Laughgan thing is perfect. How bout Purple Laughgan. That's it...it's named. My friend will just have to deal with it. It's Purple Laughgan, Laughgan for short. Hmmmmm....Laughgani? Do we like the I?

I love RIU, as well. I got invited to move over to THC Farmer. I would never run 2 threads on 2 sites. Seems wrong to me. Plus, I don't have the time. I am told there are more big ops over there. I really dig it here. Lots of people that know what they're doing and a healthy amount of novice growers just getting going. I love helping new people get started in grows. I wish I had me when I first started growing. There was no internet, and just a few books on indoor growing. Sites like these make it possible for a total novice to crank out a good yield of good weed on his first grow.


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## collective gardener (Mar 10, 2011)

xglassstaticx said:


> legally flying why did this guy say all this shit to you
> 
> Fuck you legally flying. and your mom and your stupid ass avatar. you are a fuckin dick. Eat a giant dick. . Im glad your just just an avatar cus I would seriously whoop your ass you fuckin asshole shut the Fuck up you little flea ass bitch


 
I don't know who you are or why you're here, but please go away. Can someone contact RIU to have this removed?


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## intensive (Mar 10, 2011)

just got up to date with this thread, nice to see a bigger setup getting put together. Im in San diego and I would love to do a small 8' by 8' room in a industrial area but i dunno....I hate seeing a powerbill for just a 600 and a ac unit. 3 months until i gets moving is alot of overhead building up. maybe one day


thanks for the inspiration collective gardener, good karma to you


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## rasputin71 (Mar 10, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I don't know who you are or why you're here, but please go away. Can someone contact RIU to have this removed?


click the report post button


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## Mellowman2112 (Mar 10, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> We thought about dogs. It's just if someone every poisened them, or killed them however to get in, I would never forgive myself. I just love dogs way too much to put them in harms way. My alarm guy is setting up this deal where we will be texted if an alarm is tripped. No cops. Unfortunately, my lawyer says that it pisses the cops off big time if you're broken into and they are not called. My fantasy is still to have the place rigged to trap them inside. "Put the fucking lotion on your skin!"


 ROFLMAO, that was really good.


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## incognegro999 (Mar 10, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> =I love RIU, as well. I got invited to move over to THC Farmer. I would never run 2 threads on 2 sites. Seems wrong to me. Plus, I don't have the time. I am told there are more big ops over there. I really dig it here. Lots of people that know what they're doing and a healthy amount of novice growers just getting going. I love helping new people get started in grows. I wish I had me when I first started growing. There was no internet, and just a few books on indoor growing. Sites like these make it possible for a total novice to crank out a good yield of good weed on his first grow.


 I agree. I think RIU has the best forum "setup". Some of the other websites look like people making crazy myspace templates back in the day haha. the only thing lacking here is the search feature is kinda strange. Thanks for being here, we enjoy your thread as much if not more as you enjoy it here.


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## newstrainnewrules (Mar 10, 2011)

indeed we all await more pics and yeild results from you collective and eargly await the greenhouse project aswell


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## MoJobud (Mar 10, 2011)

Not sure if you covered this yet but will you be hand trimming or using something automated? Also I am in the process of building my second room. Any chance you can post a pic of how you framed the ceiling to the wall?

Everything looks great. Keep up the good work.


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## AndyK (Mar 10, 2011)

For your blackout obstacle, you could consider getting one of those automatic pool covers, It would be very easy to set up a timer too, and would require no daily maintenance as tarps would.
Although you may need to make it a bit more lightproof than it already is.


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## incognegro999 (Mar 10, 2011)

AndyK said:


> For your blackout obstacle, you could consider getting one of those automatic pool covers, It would be very easy to set up a timer too, and would require no daily maintenance as tarps would.
> Although you may need to make it a bit more lightproof than it already is.


Bad ass idea, might cost some coin tho. If you guys are super handy you could rig up whatever your using for blackout material to a garage door motor and rails and have press button open shut.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 10, 2011)

Yeah laughgani is good too, I was thinkin the same thing a bit after I posted that.

I believe if the breeder is good and has taken his time it raises the chances you have of finding a keeper. You might not get that 1 in 1000 killer but you will get a lot of good bud. If there's a few great ones in a batch of seeds someones gotta get them right? We don't all have room to grow 300 plants to select from so we gotta settle for buyin packs of seeds n savin the good ones we run across.


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 10, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I hear ya on the seed thing. I _do not_ want to _ever_ have to order seeds again. I truly believe that here in Cali we have the highest standard for top shelf weed. This is not to brag, or whatever. It's just a combination of legal meds, a long and proud history of NorCal outdoor growing, and the fact that many world class strains were developed here and/or from stock originating here. Combine all these with a huge population and you have the best green on the planet. As a grower this means some pretty stiff competition. Remember, anyone can go online and order seeds, grow up a few mothers and start cropping. If you're a great grower you may get lucky and come across a good seed. BUT, chances are you'll be like a guy we met last week who did just that and doesn't understand why nobody wants his weed...at any price. He grew La Conf and Super Skunk. His growing techniques could use some improvement, but it really wouldn't matter too much. Niether weed stood out. They both looked just like what everyone seems to be trying to unload here: Good solid weed...but not GREAT weed. What I'm getting at is even though all these cup winning seeds are available, highgrading is still needed to get something that will stand out. I don't mean highgrading with 10 seeds. I mean 100, or 200, or 500...
> 
> This is all just my opinion. I feel that there are only 2 ways to start a grow: 1) With a known clone that you've seen grow and smoked, or 2) Spend a year or so with a small highgrading grow to select a couple mothers.
> 
> ...


RIU won't let me rep you again, but ^^^THIS^^^ 100% THIS.


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## [email protected] (Mar 10, 2011)

I still roam here on RIU. Good luck on this op, I'll be lurking.


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## puffntuff (Mar 10, 2011)

What's up water how's the plants doing??


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## collective gardener (Mar 10, 2011)

MoJobud said:


> Not sure if you covered this yet but will you be hand trimming or using something automated? Also I am in the process of building my second room. Any chance you can post a pic of how you framed the ceiling to the wall?
> 
> Everything looks great. Keep up the good work.


We'll be using the tunnel trim system...the _carpel_ tunnel. This is going to be a hand trim. One more benefit of a perpetual: everything doesn't come out at once. Trimming still sucks. We have a couple collective members who will help out with this. After all, it is a collective garden.


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## collective gardener (Mar 10, 2011)

AndyK said:


> For your blackout obstacle, you could consider getting one of those automatic pool covers, It would be very easy to set up a timer too, and would require no daily maintenance as tarps would.
> Although you may need to make it a bit more lightproof than it already is.


 
I think with the right design, no motor would be needed. I mean, you should be able to make something where you just pull three lightweight curtains like a shower curtain, right? I do, however, like the timer idea. It's not something that you can just not do one night.


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## collective gardener (Mar 10, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yeah laughgani is good too, I was thinkin the same thing a bit after I posted that.
> 
> I believe if the breeder is good and has taken his time it raises the chances you have of finding a keeper. You might not get that 1 in 1000 killer but you will get a lot of good bud. If there's a few great ones in a batch of seeds someones gotta get them right? We don't all have room to grow 300 plants to select from so we gotta settle for buyin packs of seeds n savin the good ones we run across.


 
I totally agree. I also think if you do this for many years of growing, you will end up with a very nice stable of strains. My point was more from a commercial level. I would never want to start a large op without already having the top shelf girls tested and in hand.


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 10, 2011)

The level of perfectionism you guys hold yourselves to is _exactly_ why cannabis is evolving so quickly...

Love it, keep it up


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## newstrainnewrules (Mar 11, 2011)

isnt there solar panel tarps for such things? Theres a local greenhouse around here that has a solar paneled tarp over maybe 1/4 of the greenhouse, i stoped an asked em whats up with it, they say it keeps there electric bills down for the whole place to so its sorta paying for its self, the guy i talked to said the worst thing about it is during wind storms it tends to get torn easy


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## collective gardener (Mar 11, 2011)

Grow Op Update:

Ok, for those that have been following I have an update on what we've been doing the past few days. Construction is finally slowing down. I need to duct in outside air to feed the air cooled lights (currently drawing from room), put the carbon filtered exhaust fans on a speed controller, purchase and hook up another portable air conditioner, purchase and install a 150 gallon RO water storage tank, purchase and install another dehumidifier, plumb de humidifier water discharge into ne RO water tank, and purchase and install a 2500CFM 12" exhaust fan from Grainger to exhaust the air in the main warehouse. That, I hope, should do it for the major settup. 

Basically, right now wer're cooling with a massive movement of air through the rooms. There are 2 - 750 CFM inline exhaust fans on carbon filters, and 3 - 750 CFM inline fans exhausting the lights. We're moving so much air that the air conditioners aren't too effective. The air moves through too fast to get cooled. By feeding the light hoods with warehouse air, we remove 2250 CFM of air movement from the rooms. Then, we can crank up the AC's and see what happens. We'll just play with adding AC's and adjusting the exhaust fan speed to find that sweet spot. 

All of our exhaust goes into the warehouse. There are 2 - 12" exhaust fans in the roof. While they are pretty powerful, I feel we need more movement outside the grow and inside the warehouse. Grainger sells this bad boy 12" fan that moves around 2500 CFM. It's around $400, but should do what we need. If not, we'll get 2 of em. We need massive flow in the warehouse because the entire heat load ends up there. Fortunately, we have 14' ceilings. By drawing air from down low, and exhausting high, we can pull in cool air while the exhaust fans get the super hot air out of the warehouse. 

So far, I've avoided having to go onto the roof and make any modifications that may call attention to our little secret...like installing the ductless split AC system that I had originally planned on. If three portable 10,000btu AC's can't keep us cool, I'll get the split system, but mount the compressor on the roof of the grow room, but inside the warehouse. The exhaust fans will get rid of the heat it generates. There is just no way that I'm going to mount that thing on the roof and draw attention.

Now that we have some room in the veg room, we're able to really treat our veg plants right. Before they were too crowded. Now, the LST plants have the wires moved out every 2-3 days. This keeps them really short. The Lavanders we're not topping or training. By having room, we're able to space them far apart and move them around often. We're getting nice even bushy growth all the way into the middle of the lower plant. These plants will be too large for overhead lighting by the time that there is room in the bloom room, so it will be time for some free hanging bare bulbs. I'm envisioning the bloom room having three sections of 4 - 1000 watt lights each. The first is 4 lights in air cooled reflectors about 4 ' high. The second is 4 lights in air cooled reflectors about 6' high. The last would be 4 bare hanging bulbs for plants too tall for the other light sets. This gives me alot of leeway as to when plants move into bloom. If we can accomodate any size plant, I can keep the bloom room full at all times. This is the plan, anyways. 

Ultimately, we'll identify the most productive plant size/spacing/training method, and slowly modify towards that ideal. Right now, it's pretty much the brute force method. It wouldn't suprise me if a year from now we were doubling our yield.

Helper D is taking the weekend off. That DICK. So there will be no new pics until Monday. I'm going to have hard enough time watering AND taking pictures. I'm exhausted just thinking about it.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 11, 2011)

Yeah he probably wants the weekend off to recover from the sunburns on his back and neck, bendin under those 1000 watters all day lol. Are the bubbas far enough along to "sample" yet?


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## bw2855 (Mar 12, 2011)

damn thing missed cali and hit japan


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 12, 2011)

^^^^LOL.....what do you have against cali???.....you don't have their laws so you're pissed???^^^^


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## collective gardener (Mar 12, 2011)

bw2855 said:


> damn thing missed cali and hit japan


You can see from my posts that I avoid negativity at all costs. That being said, please go fuck yourself. Take that shit someplace else. Your 5th post and that's the best thing you can come up with? This thing is a horrible event wherever it may have occured. And, it did happen some in California. Have you seen Crescent City and Santa Cruz harbors? Crescent City Harbor is totally destroyed. There is a fleet of fishing vessels there that have been destroyed or damaged as well. There is no money to rebuild it. The fishermen who depend on that harbor and their vessels are now out of work. Does this make you happy, you sick fuck?


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## collective gardener (Mar 12, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yeah he probably wants the weekend off to recover from the sunburns on his back and neck, bendin under those 1000 watters all day lol. Are the bubbas far enough along to "sample" yet?


Yeah...he's probably rubbing Aloa on his light burned plumbers crack. When he gets back and sees this guys comment below, he's going to have a heart attack. Helper D is native Cali and doesn't really tolerate shit like this. Since Helper D bench presses 350+lbs, it's good that they're not in the same room together.

The Bubba's are still a few weeks away. I will not sample until it's totally done and dried proper. I can't believe the density of the buds here at 5 weeks into bloom. Even the buds 12" or more down the branches are rock hard. I will probably harvest the top 50% of the plant and then let the rest cook for a few days before harvest. It's time for us to start constructing a drying shed. We're going to dry and cure offsite. We're currently taking temp and humidity readings at the drying site to determine what equipment we will need to install in order to get the atmosphere right.


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## newstrainnewrules (Mar 12, 2011)

hey man some people are just haters no matter what, but with that being said mad props on all your/collective work man its really an awesome thing to watch


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## DrFever (Mar 12, 2011)

nice thread found a place that has some serious fans 

http://www.canadianblower.com/blowers/index.html


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## TheLastWood (Mar 12, 2011)

Yeah I kno what u mean, my jacks are starting week 7 n I haven't tasted em yet. Still got another 2 or 3 weeks, maybe a little more.

There's been so much controversy lately on the subject gardener but do u do a pre harvest flush? I have but recently read an article on here that seems to disprove it and makes really good points with research backing it.


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## greentiger.sd (Mar 12, 2011)

Nice setup it will be interesting to see how much you guys pull. If it's not what you want and you're in socal hit me up: )


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## collective gardener (Mar 12, 2011)

newstrainnewrules said:


> hey man some people are just haters no matter what, but with that being said mad props on all your/collective work man its really an awesome thing to watch


Yeah, well I think this hater bitched up and went home. I'm not quite sure what response he thought he was going to get in here.


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## collective gardener (Mar 12, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yeah I kno what u mean, my jacks are starting week 7 n I haven't tasted em yet. Still got another 2 or 3 weeks, maybe a little more.
> 
> There's been so much controversy lately on the subject gardener but do u do a pre harvest flush? I have but recently read an article on here that seems to disprove it and makes really good points with research backing it.


 
I do. I start backing my PPM's off week 5. We're like 800 right now. I'll drop to 600 week 6 and look at the plants. If they are still totally green, I'll back off to 400. I'll feed at 200 week 7, and clear water week 8. I just want to see some yellowing on the larger fan leaves. Not too much. Just enough to show me the plant is not storing and nutes and is beginning to use reserves. I like to taper down.


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## collective gardener (Mar 12, 2011)

DrFever said:


> nice thread found a place that has some serious fans
> 
> http://www.canadianblower.com/blowers/index.html


Holy shit. 300,000 CFM. That would suck the doors off my op! I think Grainger has everything I need. I use their catelog and then go to my local HVAC store to buy the fans. The owner is a big medicator...really big. Once he deduced what we were doing, he wouldn't let us pay for anything. LOL. I do need to go see him after the first harvest. We owe the dude big time.


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## puffntuff (Mar 12, 2011)

i used one of those attic fans before. it worked like a dream it was like a an ac unit it prolly cleared the air every 2 min. fresh air=happy plants happy plants =happy grower. happy growers come from med states!!! hahhaha a little take on the california milk commercials


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## TheLastWood (Mar 12, 2011)

Thanks gardener, I was thinkin bout the same thing, tapering then clear water for a few days. I like to not water at all the last 2 days, kinda makes drying times quicker. 

I read (here on riu) the plants can actually produce an excess of natural nitrates from a N deficiency


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## collective gardener (Mar 12, 2011)

puffntuff said:


> i used one of those attic fans before. it worked like a dream it was like a an ac unit it prolly cleared the air every 2 min. fresh air=happy plants happy plants =happy grower. happy growers come from med states!!! hahhaha a little take on the california milk commercials


Yeah, Grainger has these bad boys that run about $500, but they're soooooo worth it. The regular Home Depot attic fans are nice, but the industrial ones maintain rated CFM despite back pressure/vacuum. If the grow room isn't sealed, I like a good strong vaccum. That way, when you open the door, air rushes in, rather than that dank smell rushing out. While I like sealed rooms, I've never had a powdery mildew problem moving 2500 cfm through the grow. It seems like at a given humidity, the sealed room is more prone to the powdery mildew than the "wind tunnel" room. Of course, this only works in an area where the outside air is close to the desirable temp and humidity. Living by the beach helps a bunch.


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## collective gardener (Mar 12, 2011)

greentiger.sd said:


> Nice setup it will be interesting to see how much you guys pull. If it's not what you want and you're in socal hit me up: )


I don't have super high hopes for a major yield on these first few crops. We spent too much time finishing the grow op and not enough time creating a good canopy. 

I am in So Cal. What do you mean "hit me up"?


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## Luger187 (Mar 12, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I don't have super high hopes for a major yield on these first few crops. We spent too much time finishing the grow op and not enough time creating a good canopy.
> 
> I am in So Cal. What do you mean "hit me up"?


he means to message him


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## spivak420 (Mar 13, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I don't have super high hopes for a major yield on these first few crops. We spent too much time finishing the grow op and not enough time creating a good canopy.
> 
> I am in So Cal. What do you mean "hit me up"?


Have you looked into Kyle Kushmans Veganics method?
Heres a link to Kyle's partner, Matt "Veganics" Rize's, multiple threads on the subject:

The first (and way to big) thread detailing his goals: https://www.rollitup.org/organics/364864-vegan-organics-aka-veganics-matt.html
The second thread, detailing Matt's Green Crack grow, using "Veganics": https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/398242-vegan-organic-green-crack-vegan.html <-------- {this being the much more informative one, as 
Matt details the Vegan nutrient regimen in the first post}


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## collective gardener (Mar 13, 2011)

spivak420 said:


> Have you looked into Kyle Kushmans Veganics method?
> Heres a link to Kyle's partner, Matt "Veganics" Rize's, multiple threads on the subject:
> 
> The first (and way to big) thread detailing his goals: https://www.rollitup.org/organics/364864-vegan-organics-aka-veganics-matt.html
> ...


Yeah, I read Matt's stuff a couple months back. Honestly, it's not for us. The absolute last thing I want to start here is the never ending organic/hydro debate. As I mentioned before, that one has no end. It's a classic example of sometimes the need to agree to disagree.

I grow a few organic pants sometimes for head stash and the couple members who insist on organic. On this op, we're growing 6 organic plants/cycle for my wife's organic edibles collective. Other than that, this is, and will remain, a soiless grow op. If anything, we're leaning the other way, trying a few more plants every couple days in the DWC buckets. Godzilla (the first DWC Bubba) is a fine example of the benefits of hydro. I'll have to post another pick of her tomorrow. It's under 2' tall, yet has a 3/4" stock. The shear density of the veg growth is amazing. Of course, it's not just the DWC. The atmosphere is perfect, and the plant is directly under a 1000 watt Daylight Blue MH. I'm going to veg her to about 2.5' and then throw her into the bloom room. Depending on how it turns out (both quantity ans quality) will determine what percentage of our crop will be DWC.


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## spivak420 (Mar 13, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Yeah, I read Matt's stuff a couple months back. Honestly, it's not for us. The absolute last thing I want to start here is the never ending organic/hydro debate. As I mentioned before, that one has no end. It's a classic example of sometimes the need to agree to disagree.
> 
> I grow a few organic pants sometimes for head stash and the couple members who insist on organic. On this op, we're growing 6 organic plants/cycle for my wife's organic edibles collective. Other than that, this is, and will remain, a soiless grow op. If anything, we're leaning the other way, trying a few more plants every couple days in the DWC buckets. Godzilla (the first DWC Bubba) is a fine example of the benefits of hydro. I'll have to post another pick of her tomorrow. It's under 2' tall, yet has a 3/4" stock. The shear density of the veg growth is amazing. Of course, it's not just the DWC. The atmosphere is perfect, and the plant is directly under a 1000 watt Daylight Blue MH. I'm going to veg her to about 2.5' and then throw her into the bloom room. Depending on how it turns out (both quantity ans quality) will determine what percentage of our crop will be DWC.


If you would just take the time to glance at the nutrient regime they are experimenting with,
I think you would find most if not all nutes used are safe for hydro use.
Heres the list, in case you don't have time to find it yourself:
-_BioCanna (vega, flores, bioboost, cannazyme, and rhizotonic)_
_-Humic acid (liquid form)
-Fulivc acid (huvega, also Magnesium Sulfate)
-Nature's Nectar N (soy)
-Humbolt Nutes 0-10-0 Natural Bloom (soft rock phosphate based)
-Technaflora soluble seaweed 1-1-16 (good micronutes too)
-Wet Betty organic (lol at the label)
-Hygrozyme
-Myco madness, white widow, great white, myan microzyme
-Calcium - liquid
-Epsom salt (for Mg and Sulfur)
-Thrive Alive, green label. 1-1-1_


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## TheLastWood (Mar 13, 2011)

spivak420 said:


> If you would just take the time to glance at the nutrient regime they are experimenting with,
> I think you would find most if not all nutes used are safe for hydro use.
> Heres the list, in case you don't have time to find it yourself:
> -_BioCanna (vega, flores, bioboost, cannazyme, and rhizotonic)_
> ...


Sounds like someones gotta vested interest in this stuff. Not saying its not great but I've always heard its super hard to keep hydro organic ph stable, if not impossible. Besides clogging up sprayers and pumps.

Sry gardener I won't say nothin else that could start a debate. Would really like to see some new pics soon! Especially godzilla and the laughganis. Well the bubbas too. Soo everything I guess.


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## spivak420 (Mar 13, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Sounds like someones gotta vested interest in this stuff. Not saying its not great but I've always heard its super hard to keep hydro organic ph stable, if not impossible. Besides clogging up sprayers and pumps.


According to Kushman this method opens up the ph window from 6.0 - 6.5 to 5.5 - 7.0

Heres a quote from the man himself: _ "In the absence of mineral salt derived nutrients, pH levels are less likely to fluctuate.
Cannabis cultivation in soil or soilless mediums requires pH levels to be kept between 6.0 and 6.5 for optimal conditions, 
although acceptable pH levels range from 5.5 to 7.0.
Veganics turns your acceptable pH range into your optimal pH range, broadening the range by 150%.
It's the bioavailability over the entire acceptable pH range (5.5 to 7.0) that keeps all the nutrients available to plants."_

Watch his Intro to Veganics - video on the bottom of the page at this link: http://www.kushmanveganics.com/kush/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=53

and no vested interest, just hungry for information and education that benefits the community as a whole.


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## kmog33 (Mar 13, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yeah I kno what u mean, my jacks are starting week 7 n I haven't tasted em yet. Still got another 2 or 3 weeks, maybe a little more.
> 
> There's been so much controversy lately on the subject gardener but do u do a pre harvest flush? I have but recently read an article on here that seems to disprove it and makes really good points with research backing it.


can i get a link to that article please lastwood? in my experience if i dont flush before harvest the plants dont smell or taste quite like i like them too but have a hard time sometimes choosing when to start the flush i sometimes like to go as long as 3 weeks flushing my diesel and god's gift plants.


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## merkabah (Mar 13, 2011)

saalome gaam naan ben uurda gaan njjber asaala hesporoona


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## bonghittersanber (Mar 13, 2011)

bw2855 said:


> damn thing missed cali and hit japan


what a fucking dick you are. why do you have to say that shit?


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## TheLastWood (Mar 14, 2011)

kmog33 said:


> can i get a link to that article please lastwood? in my experience if i dont flush before harvest the plants dont smell or taste quite like i like them too but have a hard time sometimes choosing when to start the flush i sometimes like to go as long as 3 weeks flushing my diesel and god's gift plants.


Yeah man I can't copy urls (on my phone internet) but its in general marijuana forum, written by riddleme just look there or search "the truth about flushing" which is the thread title. Guess its not written by riddleme but he put the info together, I love reading his threads there so informative. After reading it I decided I will taper down (as gardener also stated) and then use clear water for 3 days as to use up available nitrates without causing a deficiency.

Edit: and gardener kinda confirmed that article for me by saying that's how he does it. So I'm gonna start tapering about 2 weeks before harvest and clean wate 3 days then no water for 2


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## collective gardener (Mar 14, 2011)

spivak420 said:


> If you would just take the time to glance at the nutrient regime they are experimenting with,
> I think you would find most if not all nutes used are safe for hydro use.
> Heres the list, in case you don't have time to find it yourself:
> -_BioCanna (vega, flores, bioboost, cannazyme, and rhizotonic)_
> ...


If you have a minute, grab a pencil and piece of paper and copy down my complete list of everything I use on my plants. Those of you that don't want to be tied up for while going through each item on my complete feeding schedule may want to skip this post. Here we go:

RO Water
Cutting Edge 3 Part
Cutting Edge Mag Amp
PH Up


I just couldn't resist. Reeks of vested interest. If not, I apologize. I know Matt is workinh hard to perfect this style of growing. If this is something that interests you, may I suggest that you start a thread with this as a topic...probably in the "organics" section. I, for one, have WAY too much on my plate with this grow to start experimenting with 20 different products when I get exactly the results I need from a bottle of Micro, Grow, Bloom, and Mag Amp.

I'm glad we didn't get any momentum with the organic/hydro nute debate. We just dodged a bullet earlier with the LED thing. Thanks everyone.


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## collective gardener (Mar 14, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Sounds like someones gotta vested interest in this stuff. Not saying its not great but I've always heard its super hard to keep hydro organic ph stable, if not impossible. Besides clogging up sprayers and pumps.
> 
> Sry gardener I won't say nothin else that could start a debate. Would really like to see some new pics soon! Especially godzilla and the laughganis. Well the bubbas too. Soo everything I guess.


I tried to take a picture of Godzilla today, but as I leaned forward to snap the shot, Godzilla grabbed me by the head and started chocking me. I screamed for my life. Helper D was there in seconds. He punched Godzilla in the lower stock several times, but the plant would not let go. Helper D saw that hand to stock combat was pointless...Godzilla was much too strong. The plant squeezed harder...my neck was going to break any second. In a last ditch effort, Helper D ran into the main warehouse to retrieve our Stihl 36" chainsaw. He came through the door, saw roaring and spewing smoke. Fearing for his life, Godzilla released his grip on my neck. I slumped to the floor, gasping for air. I was safe, but Helper D was not to be stopped. With the saw at full throttle, he swung at Godzilla. With the little strength I had, I screamed NOOOOOOOOOOOO. Helper D halted at the last second, just nicking one of Godzilla's fan leaves. "I need to get a pic for Roll It Up", I gasped. "if you still want to, you can kill him tomorrow" I told a red faced Helper D. 

I'll get a pic for you guys tomorrow. Hopefully, I can cool down Helper D and save Godzilla's life.


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 14, 2011)

Here it is KMOG33.......I think everyone should read this.....good info!!!!!!

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/409622-truth-about-flushing-10.html


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## TheLastWood (Mar 14, 2011)

Yup that's it, thanks I can't copy past urls on my phone but that is some 1337 info.

Lol gardener you can't sneak up on him like that. Don't be too angry, I don't think he's angry, just misunderstood. But if it ever happens again just unplug his air pump n "see how you like it bitch".I can't wait to so picks bro!do you use a carbon filter or ozone? I need to spring for a carbon filter bad bro my whole house is reeking


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## collective gardener (Mar 14, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yup that's it, thanks I can't copy past urls on my phone but that is some 1337 info.
> 
> Lol gardener you can't sneak up on him like that. Don't be too angry, I don't think he's angry, just misunderstood. But if it ever happens again just unplug his air pump n "see how you like it bitch".I can't wait to so picks bro!do you use a carbon filter or ozone? I need to spring for a carbon filter bad bro my whole house is reeking


We use carbon filtration and LOVE it.



I've used ozone before, but now prefer carbon. Sometimes I use some Ona Gel in the main warehouse, as well. The main odor stop, though, is carbon filtration. Make sure your room is also under some negative pressure. This way, any odor leaks go into the room, not out. I like to use at least 2 filters on 2 exhaust fans, either one of which can handle the whole job. If we
are growing one of those strains that just blows the room out with uncontrollable dank funk, I'll add a third small filter which is exhausted inside the room. I use a 6" fan/filter combo that just recirculates the air in the bloom room through the filter. This just takes the edge off of the room odor before it is exhausted through the main filters to outside. My Bubbas don't need this, but I have a filter on standby for the Lavander crosses. My friend tells me the Lavanders need some extra odor control measures. 

If your whole house is reeking, I would put a filter or 2 in your exhaust, and maybe another one in your house somewhere scrubbing the air. The idea, of course, is that no odor leaves the grow, so the house shouldn't need this. But, shit happens.


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## incognegro999 (Mar 14, 2011)

Hey collective, Dont mean to thread jack but seems you have alot of odor control knowledge haha. Right now I have a fan/filter combo thats just not cutting it, i.e. to small for my area. Would I be better off adding another similar size fan filter combo and adding a Y adapter to where I exhaust or just getting a fan/filter combo that can handle the job by itself? I'm worried about the fans competing somehow ventilation and pressure stuff is not my strongpoint. This is one of those threads I read everytime theres a new post haha. Thanks for sharing


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## TheLastWood (Mar 14, 2011)

Yea gardener I need a carbon filter bad. That is my choice as well but was wondering about the ozone. Carbon just seems like a better and more natural way tho. And with a carbon filter all the air must go through the carbon, I've never used ozone but it seems like some aor could go by untreated. 

Incog ur avy looks like an ex of mine. I think in gonna call her.


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## mellokitty (Mar 14, 2011)

ozone stinks. at least if you know what to smell for. (hint hint....) 
i am carbon filtration all the way. 

if you have 2 different sized mesh containers (like desktop pencil holders, for example, for a *wee* one), you can make your own filter by putting one inside the other and filling the gap between them (not the very middle but the donut shaped space) with activated charcoal. cover the top with a couple of layers of pantyhose, duct tape an adapter opening of some sort to it, and you're ready to hook it up to a small fan.


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## collective gardener (Mar 14, 2011)

incognegro999 said:


> Hey collective, Dont mean to thread jack but seems you have alot of odor control knowledge haha. Right now I have a fan/filter combo thats just not cutting it, i.e. to small for my area. Would I be better off adding another similar size fan filter combo and adding a Y adapter to where I exhaust or just getting a fan/filter combo that can handle the job by itself? I'm worried about the fans competing somehow ventilation and pressure stuff is not my strongpoint. This is one of those threads I read everytime theres a new post haha. Thanks for sharing


Can you add another fan/filter combo and another exhaust exit point? That would be my first choice. If not, I would add a larger fan/filter for the exhaust and then use your existing fan/filter combo to just scrub the air inside the room. The air goes through that filter and right back into the room....maybe ducted a few feet away.


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## collective gardener (Mar 14, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yea gardener I need a carbon filter bad. That is my choice as well but was wondering about the ozone. Carbon just seems like a better and more natural way tho. And with a carbon filter all the air must go through the carbon, I've never used ozone but it seems like some aor could go by untreated.
> 
> Incog ur avy looks like an ex of mine. I think in gonna call her.


 
I like carbon as my primary odor control. I have, before, installed an ozone gen in the exhaust duct after the carbon filter to catch any remaining odor. But, honestly, if your carbon filter/fan settup is large enough, you shouldn't need anything else. This is one of those cases where bigger is way WAY better. I use 2 - 10x39's, but will add a third shortly.


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## MoJobud (Mar 14, 2011)

Hey Gardener, a bit off topic but what is your take on what's going on in SoCal with all these large grow ops being shut down? Too large and greed?


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## collective gardener (Mar 14, 2011)

MoJobud said:


> Hey Gardener, a bit off topic but what is your take on what's going on in SoCal with all these large grow ops being shut down? Too large and greed?


 
I'm not sure what ops you're talking about. It seems there's a new story often. I can give you a list of what our attorney said will get an otherwisw legal med collective busted:

Guns
Other drugs
Sale to minors
Lots of cash
Lots of bud
Lack of documentation
Illegal sales
Organized crime connections
Profit

Let's face it, 500 plants, 30 lbs of buds, and $50,000 cash is going to get you busted for sure.

6 Plants, 6oz of buds, and $1.96 in cash will not get you busted for sure.

3 People growing 18 plants, 1 lb of buds, and $294.97 in cash, with a legal collective formed between the three people will almost for sure not get anyone busted, and definately would not get a conviction.

What about 8 people? 15? Could 15 folks get together and grow 90 plants?

I don't claim to know what the threshold is. I know that we are 100% legal according to california law. Some law enforcement just want the op shut down. They take the gear and threaten to file charges if you try to get it back.

I know that if you advertise, are vocal about the movement, and push their face in it, you're playing with fire.

My point is, where is the threshold.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 14, 2011)

I hate cops. PPL SHOULD NOT EVER BE AFRAID OF THERE GOVT! They should remember who is working for who.


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## collective gardener (Mar 14, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> I hate cops. PPL SHOULD NOT EVER BE AFRAID OF THERE GOVT! They should remember who is working for who.


You're goddamn right, Wood. Yet, here I sit, wondering if I'm going to be next. I imagine a world...blah blah...u all know the drill.

I just took a bunch of pics. Gonna head on home and post them up. Let's get back to the grow and have some fun. Love you guys!


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## Stoner.Barbie (Mar 14, 2011)

dad gum it, i thought that i was already sub'd, well for sure now. super excited to see those pics!


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 14, 2011)

still waiting on those pics. really pumped to see how things faired with out D(lol)


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## collective gardener (Mar 14, 2011)

Ok Gang. I had some time today while Helper D worked his ass off. So, I took a few pics that ya'll been waiting for. These are in no particular order:


These Bubbas are around week 5 of bloom. You'll see they are at the far right hand side of the bloom room. Plants enter the room on the left and shift right as crops are harvested and new plants placed into bloom. This keeps feeding easy, as N is gradually reduced as the feeding moves to the right.



These 2 lights are our only 600 watt lights. We ran out of bloom room, so these went up in our walking area!

























This NY Diesel is a gift to a friend who wants to plant an outdoor crop in a couple weeks. I think she'll like this girl. I can't even imagine how big it will be going in the ground April 1st at 4 feet tall!



GODZILLA!!!


Zilla's underbrush


Godilla's large leaf


How bout that stock for a 20" plant. DWC, baby.




The veg room table spaced nicely...for the first time.


Veg room floor getting ready for bloom in 3 weeks. The big pot is my Bubba mommie, the rest are the Lavander cross.



And, at last. The all time croud favorite. Your friend and mine. HEEEEEEEEEELPER DAN!




Hope you guys enjoy.


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## newstrainnewrules (Mar 14, 2011)

thats beautiful


nuff said


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 14, 2011)

dam awsome!! just speachless +rep


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 14, 2011)

Very nice, how do you like DWC just sent two into flower last week?


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## TheLastWood (Mar 14, 2011)

I pray to god that someday I will be able to look out across my garden and that it looks something like that. Amazing and inspiring. I'm so jealous. But in a good way. 

When I see things like that the feeling I get is like, spiritual.


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## collective gardener (Mar 14, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> Very nice, how do you like DWC just sent two into flower last week?


I love it so far for veg growth. As fast and heavy growth as I've ever seen. I'll reserve an opinion on flower growth until these 2 are done. They went into bloom today.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 14, 2011)

Ill be watching any chance you could swing by MY TENT and tell me why Brain Storm is yellow.


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## collective gardener (Mar 14, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> Ill be watching any chance you could swing by MY TENT and tell me why Brain Storm is yellow.


 
What PPM's are you running? Are you running RO water? Let me know and we'll walk through this. All of the plants look great, but just a microflink (a very tiny number) light in color.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 14, 2011)

PPM is 520 yes to R/O water


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## Mylifeisdmt (Mar 14, 2011)

DUDE

I would love to see a pic of that 4 footer diesel after its been in the ground for half a year!


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## collective gardener (Mar 15, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> PPM is 520 yes to R/O water


OK. I don't see any leaf tip burn or sign of over feeding. The light color is indicitive of under feeding. Try uping your ppm to around 650. It should help deepen the green


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## collective gardener (Mar 15, 2011)

Mylifeisdmt said:


> DUDE
> 
> I would love to see a pic of that 4 footer diesel after its been in the ground for half a year!


She's a good friend of mine. I'll get picks all the way through. I'm thinking a 12' plant kicking 4lbs.


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 15, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> She's a good friend of mine. I'll get picks all the way through. I'm thinking a 12' plant kicking 4lbs.


dam now that would be a sight Id love to see


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## Stoner.Barbie (Mar 15, 2011)

now you know that barbie would love love love to run around in there (gently) naked! fantastic!


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## Harrekin (Mar 15, 2011)

Maybe someday we can all (legally) frollick (gently) naked through the fields of delicious mj we've grown...until then we can only speak such words here.


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## mellokitty (Mar 15, 2011)

if my barbie had been a stoner my life would probably have been a lot different.... wait, no it wouldn't. lol


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 15, 2011)

I love the new pics! Keep it up collective! Going to flower myself by the end of the week!


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## TheLastWood (Mar 15, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> I love the new pics! Keep it up collective! Going to flower myself by the end of the week!


Make sure you drink lots of K and P verde. I'm sure you will be a big beautiful flower 


Gardener you must get such a sense of satisfaction goin to work everyday.


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## collective gardener (Mar 15, 2011)

Well, we're getting close to harvest. April 5 is the magic date. Helper D and I need to build an offsite drying/curing facility. There's just no way I'm going to leave finished buds at the op. All the eggs in one basket and shit. We have a great location...to build the drying room. Probably make it 8' x 8' x 8' with tight wires pulled wall to wall. We purchased a tiny 3000btu window AC, a 50 pint dehumidifier, and a 6" carbon filter for the room. I used to dry in the grow with a dark box and the same atmosphere. I've found that cooler temps in the first stages of drying (around 65 degrees) work best to get rid of all the chloro scent. We'll cut branches off, remove all leaves with no crystals, and hang the branches. After a week or so the buds are removed from the branches, the fine manicure is performed, and the buds are placed in paper bags for a couple days...then into plastic tubs for the burping. All told, I run a 15 day dry/micro-cure. 

In a perfect world, we'd cure for much longer. But it's not a perfect world, is it? 

I just can't wait to have the dried buds in my hand. I'm also really curious about the yield. The plants on the veg table have been trained using different techniques. The idea is now to identify the best way to train this strain in our room for yield. This first batch was just to get _something _while we completed the grow construction. Now we can concentrate on using more technique and not just brute force. The one Lavander cross we're budding is shaping up to out yield the Bubba by at least 50%. Not suprising; this Bubba pheno may be great quality, but tends to produce several smaller buds spaced along the branches. I've seen this pheno grown in several rooms, with and without CO2, and it's always pretty much the same. 

We're also talking of bringing in another strain. I put out the word that I'm looking for a sativa cross to fill out the stable. I'm hoping that my little grow network will e showing up soon with a proven winner. Until then, we'll work on perfecting what we have. A West Los Angeles dispensay who sampled the Lavander cross is offering to take it all in exchange for an exlusive. We feel pretty fortunate in this climate to not have the problems that many of our Northern California Brothers are having.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 15, 2011)

What do u mean take it all in exchange for an exclusive?

Also, don't you find it harder to manicure dry buds? Why do you trim 2x versus doing all the trimming then dryin? To slow the dry? Just wondering why you do it that way.


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 16, 2011)

He means that if he agrees to be a supplier for them exclusively, they would take the entire crop. At least that's how I interpret that sentence.

Sorry for answering for you Collective...


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## collective gardener (Mar 16, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> What do u mean take it all in exchange for an exclusive?
> 
> Also, don't you find it harder to manicure dry buds? Why do you trim 2x versus doing all the trimming then dryin? To slow the dry? Just wondering why you do it that way.


Wolverine is correct. It's all just talk right now. The competition between dispensaries is getting pretty intense. If one gets a hold of some really different quality stuff, they want to be the only ones that have it. The way this thing is going, I think soon you'll see dispensarys catering to nich markets. There will be one that just sells purple...or true sativas...or concentrates...or, of course, organic. Isn't that the way our markets seem to work in every other industry? 

Yes, it's harder to do final trim dry. But, they dry a little slower, making it easier to get it just right. Also, the leaves tend to protect the buds, meaning leass trichome breakage and loss. All in all, it's more a quality thing than an easy thing. Once I started doing it this way, I have stuck with it. It just gives me a better medicine.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 16, 2011)

Ahh I see. So basically if a patient really likes your meds, they are forced to return to the same club to get it. Well as long as there prices to the patient are good its all good right? Do all clubs have to sell for the same prices out there? Idk I don't like monopoly's of any market. "Exclusive" and "competition" are business words. Sry I just have a bad taste in my mouth towards dispensaries. I know if anybody wants to make there meds as accesible to patients in need tho its you. 

also, thanks for explaining your drying method. My jacks are about 2 maybe 3 weeks from harvest also. I can't wait.


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## mellokitty (Mar 16, 2011)

*sigh*... i miss a good dry hand trim. crystal mountain products (of spinpro fame) is a local company and it seems like everybody and their dog has one. i think, between their guinea pigs and the 'bro-price' there are more spinpros per capita in bc than anywhere else. 
i find that a dry trim is actually *less work in the long run; you don't have to keep flipping the pile so there's less manhandling, you don't have to "go over" your finished product to get rid of exposed stalks etc. etc. that and dry buds often require less scissor-strokes (less carpal tunnel).
cg, if you're ever in need of a trimmer nicknamed "the Woodlathe" send me a plane ticket... 

you know, for all the growers we supposedly have in this province, vancouver has all of *2* public dispensaries (and i believe they were both set up by the BC Compassion Society). there was another further in the burbs but they got shut down. BCCS is a well-established mmj organisation peopled with good people; personally i wouldn't set foot in a dispensary *not at least endorsed by BCCS, and i can't think of a reason why any reputable dispensary with "access to medicine" as its primary mandate wouldn't want their endorsement/support/help/network during startup. we are fortunate in that regard here. that and a lot of people want to grow their own or have one designated grower of their medicine anyway. this is the sort of place where on a good day you can go down to your local cannabusiness, run into any number of world-class, world-famous growers/breeders, and pick their brains with your questions. in the time it takes to smoke a joint you can get an answer to your question and learn 3 new facts. why wouldn't you grow your own? although i would definitely at least send someone to check out that organic disp. i hope that you find some medicine-oriented folks like yourselves.


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## Zigg Zagg (Mar 16, 2011)

BiteSizeFreak said:


> If I owned hell and Cali, I'd rent out Cali and live in hell. lol  Seriously though, can't stand the place. Aside from the pretty girls and good weed laws I find nothing else redeeming about the state. I usually don't bring it up for obvious reasons lol
> 
> Anyway, I'll just kinda piece out here for a little while or this whole thread will get jacked by people mad that I don't like Cali
> 
> PS: Oh yeah, good wine too!


I'm not gonna get mad, but you obviously don't know much about it. it's funny when ppl bash on it....its a big, big state dude.


oh yeah, subscribing to this thread as well. this is one of the more legit grows I've seen on here.


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## Zigg Zagg (Mar 16, 2011)

Hey Collective....you should start a journal where you can post pics and updates. I'd like to follow your grow, but there are waaaaay too many pages in this thread now to sift through. would make it MUCH easier. peace!


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## rasputin71 (Mar 16, 2011)

Zigg Zagg said:


> I'm not gonna get mad, but you obviously don't know much about it....


I know enough to know: you can keep your Kalifornia.


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## jazzyfranc (Mar 16, 2011)

top notch grow . i love it cleanand organized


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 16, 2011)

Zigg Zagg said:


> Hey Collective....you should start a journal where you can post pics and updates. I'd like to follow your grow, but there are waaaaay too many pages in this thread now to sift through. would make it MUCH easier. peace!


Sift my friend, it builds character.


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## collective gardener (Mar 16, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Ahh I see. So basically if a patient really likes your meds, they are forced to return to the same club to get it. Well as long as there prices to the patient are good its all good right? Do all clubs have to sell for the same prices out there? Idk I don't like monopoly's of any market. "Exclusive" and "competition" are business words. Sry I just have a bad taste in my mouth towards dispensaries. I know if anybody wants to make there meds as accesible to patients in need tho its you.
> 
> also, thanks for explaining your drying method. My jacks are about 2 maybe 3 weeks from harvest also. I can't wait.


Wood, Good eye on the business buzz words (exclusive...). Most dispenaries are becoming pretty cutt-throat with their vendors, and, to some degree, their patients. I truly appreciate you realizing that we get our meds out there to people who really need them for free. Little do these dispensaries know, that a portion of what they pay us goes towards us donating meds to terminal patients. Jokes on them. But seriously, this industry is moving in a profit driven direction, totally primed for BIG BUSINESS to come in and do their thing to our thing. It's just a matter of time. All we can do is guard our genetics with our lives. "No live plant leaves the grow" is our motto. I hate to say it, but I liked it better when you had to know someone to get your hands on good genetics. It's still like that for the "special" stuff, but great strains are way too available. Upon full legalization there's nothing to stop Big Business from shitting all over us.


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## collective gardener (Mar 16, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> *sigh*... i miss a good dry hand trim. crystal mountain products (of spinpro fame) is a local company and it seems like everybody and their dog has one. i think, between their guinea pigs and the 'bro-price' there are more spinpros per capita in bc than anywhere else.
> i find that a dry trim is actually *less work in the long run; you don't have to keep flipping the pile so there's less manhandling, you don't have to "go over" your finished product to get rid of exposed stalks etc. etc. that and dry buds often require less scissor-strokes (less carpal tunnel).
> cg, if you're ever in need of a trimmer nicknamed "the Woodlathe" send me a plane ticket...
> 
> you know, for all the growers we supposedly have in this province, vancouver has all of *2* public dispensaries (and i believe they were both set up by the BC Compassion Society). there was another further in the burbs but they got shut down. BCCS is a well-established mmj organisation peopled with good people; personally i wouldn't set foot in a dispensary *not at least endorsed by BCCS, and i can't think of a reason why any reputable dispensary with "access to medicine" as its primary mandate wouldn't want their endorsement/support/help/network during startup. we are fortunate in that regard here. that and a lot of people want to grow their own or have one designated grower of their medicine anyway. this is the sort of place where on a good day you can go down to your local cannabusiness, run into any number of world-class, world-famous growers/breeders, and pick their brains with your questions. in the time it takes to smoke a joint you can get an answer to your question and learn 3 new facts. why wouldn't you grow your own? although i would definitely at least send someone to check out that organic disp. i hope that you find some medicine-oriented folks like yourselves.


I'm working with a gentleman right now (who's probably reading this. lol), who is starting an all organic delivery collective. It has the makings for something special. He's also commited to getting meds into the hands of cancer patients free of charge. Helper D and I have many offers to settup and manage grows, but these are the kind of folks we choose to work with. I like to make sure we can have a couple meetings before the "how much am I going to make" topic comes up.


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## collective gardener (Mar 16, 2011)

Zigg Zagg said:


> Hey Collective....you should start a journal where you can post pics and updates. I'd like to follow your grow, but there are waaaaay too many pages in this thread now to sift through. would make it MUCH easier. peace!


 
Sorry....not going to happen. This one takes up enough time. Besides, many people here have good stuff to say.


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## collective gardener (Mar 16, 2011)

rasputin71 said:


> I know enough to know: you can keep your Kalifornia.


 
We seem to be teetering on the edge of negativity here.


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 17, 2011)

how are the flowers over there collective? pumping out the resin i hope?


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## theexpress (Mar 17, 2011)

i wanna see 20k watt buds too!!!!


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

jazzyfranc said:


> top notch grow . i love it cleanand organized


 
I'll pass that on to Helper D. Without him the grow would look much MUCH different. LOL. Seriously, thank you.


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## incognegro999 (Mar 17, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> It's still like that for the "special" stuff, but great strains are way too available. Upon full legalization there's nothing to stop Big Business from shitting all over us.


It will be like the monsanto of MMJ. I like to believe that this plant of ours is one of those few things that has to be too high quality for mass production, at least in the med community. Although there is the old saying if you throw enough money at a problem it can be overcome. Yes, I am definitly being naive haha


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## TheLastWood (Mar 17, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Wood, Good eye on the business buzz words (exclusive...). Most dispenaries are becoming pretty cutt-throat with their vendors, and, to some degree, their patients. I truly appreciate you realizing that we get our meds out there to people who really need them for free. Little do these dispensaries know, that a portion of what they pay us goes towards us donating meds to terminal patients. Jokes on them. But seriously, this industry is moving in a profit driven direction, totally primed for BIG BUSINESS to come in and do their thing to our thing. It's just a matter of time. All we can do is guard our genetics with our lives. "No live plant leaves the grow" is our motto. I hate to say it, but I liked it better when you had to know someone to get your hands on good genetics. It's still like that for the "special" stuff, but great strains are way too available. Upon full legalization there's nothing to stop Big Business from shitting all over us.


My state is struggling with mmj laws. Although recently passed they still treat even patients like criminals. thanks to dispensary owners pretty much making the laws, they have practically COMPLRTELY cut out caregivers and collective growers. Squashing any hopes I had of starting a legal grow, nothing on your scale, but I at least wanted to be able to grow legally and provide for a few patients. But now ppl are forced to buy from a dispensary and dispensarys have to grow 70% or more of there own meds. Unless I get a job for them it is highly unlikely ill be staring a legal grow.

Doesn't mean I'm giving up hope. Still trying to start a legal grow... the laws have ended up fucking us over.


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> how are the flowers over there collective? pumping out the resin i hope?


11 plants are 20 days from harvest and super sticky. Although the tops are great, the buds about 6" down have the most resin. They're all just starting to really swell up. I love this Bubba because although the buds are small, they are extremely dense, not losing much size in drying.

I just want them to get done so I can put my 20 Lavanders into bloom. The one test Lavander in bloom is showing signs of being a real world class yielder for a top shelf product.


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

theexpress said:


> i wanna see 20k watt buds too!!!!


Right now I can only show you 17,200 watt buds. I just ordered a couple more air cooled hoods for my last 2 ballasts hanging on the wall, all powered up and waiting for something to cook. We'll then max out with 19,200 watts. Should I change the thread title?


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> My state is struggling with mmj laws. Although recently passed they still treat even patients like criminals. thanks to dispensary owners pretty much making the laws, they have practically COMPLRTELY cut out caregivers and collective growers. Squashing any hopes I had of starting a legal grow, nothing on your scale, but I at least wanted to be able to grow legally and provide for a few patients. But now ppl are forced to buy from a dispensary and dispensarys have to grow 70% or more of there own meds. Unless I get a job for them it is highly unlikely ill be staring a legal grow.
> 
> Doesn't mean I'm giving up hope. Still trying to start a legal grow... the laws have ended up fucking us over.


Sounds like Colorado, eh? Can you grow the other 30% that the collectives can outsource? What is the main road block to starting a dispensary? Money? Are there any permits left? I read that soon you guys will have cameras watching the meds from seed to sale. Won't that be fun. I totally feel for you. I read an interview with a Colo dispensary owner who says there should just be 7 dispensaries...his being one of them, of course. Sounds like the little guys got cut out before it even started. All they are doing is driving you growers back into the black market. I'm sure the folks out in Chicago would love to pay dearly for some of your meds.


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## watchm3spec (Mar 17, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> We'll then max out with 19,200 watts. Should I change the thread title?


Nawww 20,000 sounds so much better


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

incognegro999 said:


> It will be like the monsanto of MMJ. I like to believe that this plant of ours is one of those few things that has to be too high quality for mass production, at least in the med community. Although there is the old saying if you throw enough money at a problem it can be overcome. Yes, I am definitly being naive haha


 
I've been clinging to that argument myself. It is hard to grow top grade on a mass scale. Also, a grower who is passionate about his crop will be able to produce far better meds than some employee...regardless of what he/she gets paid. You just can't compete with true passion and a love for the plant. 

My lawyer thinks that right now Monsanto is gathering all of the Landrace strains in an effort to copyright them (and all of their offspring...meaning everything) when the laws alow them to do so. Basically, the day the law changes, Monsanto is first in line at the copyright office with a stack of papers making every single marijuana strain in existance legally theirs alone. They could even be holding up legalization until they have everything wrapped up tight. Anyone who thinks that's impossible should think about what can be done with tens of billions of dollars per year. 

All that has to happen for nationwide legalization is for the DEA to re-classify pot as a schedule 3 drug. Poof...pot becomes as legal as aspirin. The only reason that it's illegal now is because Big Business wants it that way...for now. I believe the medical marijuana laws are a kind of "market test" for the big boys. They can sit back and let the market establish an average unit price, gross sales, and annual growth. Call me paranoid, but this little thing we got going on here is about to get shit all over. I believe there will still be a place for some of us. But, we're going to have to fight for it.


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## Harrekin (Mar 17, 2011)

I dont think plant genotypes can be copyrighted or patented, thats why MJ is illegal, its actually impossible for them to make a profit off it cos its impossible to patent. 

Either way, the day the genetic structure of a plant gets patented (without some serious gene splicing being done to make it an entirely new type of plant) is the day we need to revolt...humans shouldnt be able to package and patent everything on the planet, we're the stewards of this planet, not its owners.

EDIT: I dont really think MJ is suited to big business anyways, I think when its eventually legalised it'll be the highest quality from small growers and standard regs from big business if they want a piece of the pie.


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## CallmeTex (Mar 17, 2011)

Harrekin said:


> I dont think plant genotypes can be copyrighted or patented, thats why MJ is illegal, its actually impossible for them to make a profit off it cos its impossible to patent.
> 
> Either way, the day the genetic structure of a plant gets patented (without some serious gene splicing being done to make it an entirely new type of plant) is the day we need to revolt...humans shouldnt be able to package and patent everything on the planet, we're the stewards of this planet, not its owners.
> 
> EDIT: I dont really think MJ is suited to big business anyways, I think when its eventually legalised it'll be the highest quality from small growers and standard regs from big business if they want a piece of the pie.


People don't realize it but Mosanto has been patenting a few plants with their RoundUp ready formula. Corn, alfalfa, cotton, and a bunch of others. A good documentary that showcases just how fucked up Monsanto is, Food Inc. I recommend everyone watch it. I totally agree with you Harrekin, whenever shit gets bad enough there will be a revolution.

And yea, Fuck Monsanto!


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 17, 2011)

CallmeTex said:


> People don't realize it but Mosanto has been patenting a few plants with their RoundUp ready formula. Corn, alfalfa, cotton, and a bunch of others. A good documentary that showcases just how fucked up Monsanto is, Food Inc. I recommend everyone watch it. I totally agree with you Harrekin, whenever shit gets bad enough there will be a revolution.
> 
> And yea, Fuck Monsanto!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-ouf_gmA5o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL1pKlnhvg0&feature=related


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## TheLastWood (Mar 17, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Sounds like Colorado, eh? Can you grow the other 30% that the collectives can outsource? What is the main road block to starting a dispensary? Money? Are there any permits left? I read that soon you guys will have cameras watching the meds from seed to sale. Won't that be fun. I totally feel for you. I read an interview with a Colo dispensary owner who says there should just be 7 dispensaries...his being one of them, of course. Sounds like the little guys got cut out before it even started. All they are doing is driving you growers back into the black market. I'm sure the folks out in Chicago would love to pay dearly for some of your meds.


Not colorado. Actually not even legal here till april 1 and the dispensaries have already locked it up. With only 126 dispensaries allowed ppl have been fighting for the spots. I'm assuming the will buy the other 30% from cali seeing as it will still be illegal for anyone to grow. See they have them strategically placed divided up into sections, then changed the original law passed to say "no one within 25 miles of a dispensary is allowed to grow there own". Oh yeah, the other change they made, a 300% sales tax. So patients are forced to pay it. I'm so fucking pissed. Only hope is moving to the outskirts, but seeing as there strategically placed they pretty much locked up the whole state. 
Its like "ok we will recognise its medicinal value, and let it be used by patients, but only "some people with a lot of money and lawyers" can grow it and "we have to really chrage the fuck out of those sick criminals and make it damn near impossible to produce"

What about xanax, oxycontin, valium, percocet, oh wait, let's mention some OVER THE COUNTER meds that can get yu waaaaaaaaaay more intoxicated like CORISEDAN (spl?), DELSYM, and all the other COUGH MEDS?

Ppl don't rly understand the true med value and think its just a ruese to pass mj. Norml and MMP are doing a great job fighting for us in the white house, but they need to take this shit to the streets, have some peaceful PUBLIC seminars where ppl can't help but hear and get news coverage(think they'd try covering it up actually) and use some of the money we all donate to buy some fucking national airtime, get some real patients on there to tell how they are persecuted and explain the TRUTH about mmj. 

The only way to beat the dea is not by ppl getting paid millions by companies with alterior motives to suddenly open there eyes. It will never happen, they have no hearts. Public awareness, millions and millions of citizens saying omg I had no idea mmj literally keeps ppl alive is whaats gonna get shit done.


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## Stoner.Barbie (Mar 17, 2011)

thats so true TLW. we need to educate the public. its unbelievable that so many people still believe reefer madness.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 17, 2011)

Even where its legal patients and growers are being prosecuted. Even ppl that don't agree woth mmj will hopefully have enough respect for the democratic process to realise "hey if this law was passed, then ppl voted for it and the federal govt shouldn't be sidestepping around the very process which our country is built upon" but unfortunately when a dispensary is illegally raided, the only ones who rly hear about it is us .

EDIT sorry gardener ill shutup now, I just get so worked up


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## docrock (Mar 17, 2011)

First off, where are you located. Other questions. Have you looked into inductive lighting? If not would you have any intrest or need in trying out a 50W inductive light. Equivilant to 90 LED and 200 to 300 Wat HPS/MH. If you could use one I would donate it to cause. All I would ask is an honest report on how it works. I have an assortment ordered and other than factory specs, which look good of course, I don't have any first hand knowledge of how they work. Let me know.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 17, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Not colorado. Actually not even legal here till april 1 and the dispensaries have already locked it up. With only 126 dispensaries allowed ppl have been fighting for the spots. I'm assuming the will buy the other 30% from cali seeing as it will still be illegal for anyone to grow. See they have them strategically placed divided up into sections, then changed the original law passed to say "no one within 25 miles of a dispensary is allowed to grow there own". Oh yeah, the other change they made, a 300% sales tax. So patients are forced to pay it. I'm so fucking pissed. Only hope is moving to the outskirts, but seeing as there strategically placed they pretty much locked up the whole state.
> Its like "ok we will recognise its medicinal value, and let it be used by patients, but only "some people with a lot of money and lawyers" can grow it and "we have to really chrage the fuck out of those sick criminals and make it damn near impossible to produce"
> 
> What about xanax, oxycontin, valium, percocet, oh wait, let's mention some OVER THE COUNTER meds that can get yu waaaaaaaaaay more intoxicated like CORISEDAN (spl?), DELSYM, and all the other COUGH MEDS?
> ...


Ok so if not Colorado were?


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 17, 2011)

collective I saw that you use the blockbuster hood from sunlight, have you looked into the Magnum XXXL 6" or 8"? I think they may give you a bigger foot print of light ( its what i use in flower)


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

On the big business subject, I believe we should look at the California Wine Model. There are 100's of small winery's, each putting out a world calss product. Big business cannot get a foothold. It's not for lack of trying.

Wood...never shut up. Scream at the top of your lungs. I'll be the one holding the bullhorn to your mouth.


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> collective I saw that you use the blockbuster hood from sunlight, have you looked into the Magnum XXXL 6" or 8"? I think they may give you a bigger foot print of light ( its what i use in flower)


 
I did some extensive light testing with a meter connected to my PC. The larger reflectors (Raptor, XXL, etc...) work well for a wide footprint, but the overall amount of light that hits the area is actually less than a smaller reflector. The best reflector for light spread with very little total loss on the target area is the Adjust a Wing. If I were growing SOG or a small plant SCROG, and needed air cooling, I would use 600watt Raptors basically touching eachother. With large plants, I like the CAP air cooled for penetration using 1000's. When and if I ever install a 4 ton split AC, I'll probably go 100% Adjust a Wings with 1000's. Anyone who hasn't tried one really should go for it. Years ago, I flowered a 6' x 6' space with one in a SCROG and got 4lbs. Of course, there were quite a few plants. More than I have now in a 200 sq ft space.


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

docrock said:


> First off, where are you located. Other questions. Have you looked into inductive lighting? If not would you have any intrest or need in trying out a 50W inductive light. Equivilant to 90 LED and 200 to 300 Wat HPS/MH. If you could use one I would donate it to cause. All I would ask is an honest report on how it works. I have an assortment ordered and other than factory specs, which look good of course, I don't have any first hand knowledge of how they work. Let me know.


 
I may be interested. Can you direct us to a website showing the light. Does the light come with a tracking device? Just me being paranoid of a 7 post guy wanting to give stuff away. I apologize, but i'm just paranoid.


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## mellokitty (Mar 17, 2011)

Harrekin said:


> I dont think plant genotypes can be copyrighted or patented


Food Inc is a must-see if you actually believe ^this. also: The Future of Food. ironically enough, it is the prohibition of cannabis that is preventing this, and i would bet you our next crop that the by the time they change *that particular law monsanto is going to have fucking DIBS on the patents to all the landrace strains. the word "should" doesn't apply human stewardship as far as how corporations like monsanto are commodifying life itself, apparently.

it's already happening - a lot of californians seem to be hailing the weed superstore in sacramento as the 'wal-mart of weed', i don't think that's a complimentary or desirable description AT ALL, in fact, that in itself makes me want to boycott it (not that i've ever been to cali anyway)....


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## SCCA (Mar 17, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> On the big business subject, I believe we should look at the California Wine Model. There are 100's of small winery's, each putting out a world calss product. Big business cannot get a foothold. It's not for lack of trying.



you hit it right on the head, gardener. there will always be the Gallos and Kendall Jacksons of the cannabis industry. they will supply the folks that just want some smoke for after work and weekends. but there will definitely be a market for the high quality, hand trimmed buds. it will come down to acquiring and developing unique, potent strains and never letting anyone have a live plant. Unique hash is going to be an other market where small growers can make a good living.


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## Stoner.Barbie (Mar 17, 2011)

sorry, i know that this is off subject, kinda..........but is anybody else going to the HT MMJ cup in denver?


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## TheLastWood (Mar 17, 2011)

Stoner.Barbie said:


> sorry, i know that this is off subject, kinda..........but is anybody else going to the HT MMJ cup in denver?


I would love too.. when is it? Ill do some research on my own too. It would be awesome to meet you all this is like my favorite thread and I really enjoy all of your company.

You know if they wanna play dirty and patent every landrace strain that's fine, but there gonna be really pissed off when I patent oxygen. 

If they can do it why can't I?


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## mellokitty (Mar 17, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> If they can do it why can't I?


you have millions of dollars? can we be realtime friends too?  lol


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## docrock (Mar 17, 2011)

Ok, I answered this once but can't find it now and don't know if I pressed send or not. Anyway, don't worry about being paranoid, although I'd just call it cautious and wise. I don't have a web site yet, actually I just got home from a company that is going to make me one. I have the factory literature I can email, I don't know if it would be proper or allowed to post it here. There were some for sale on ebay, in fact I sold one last weekend, the auction has ended but you may still be able to view it, I have the manufacurer propaganda listed. I call it propaganda cause until I hear it from a person who isn't selling them how good they work, I don't know if I believe it. Which is why I auctioned off the one I did, it ended up selling for less than what I paid for it, but, I hope to get some feedback on how it works, that is also why I have offered you one. The auction number is 250784697250 at ebay. As for the tracking device, I think thats a great idea, you want to furnish me some I'll put them on the lights I sell and a couple three months or so after, we can find someone to go pick whats under lights, sound like a good idea?


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## Stoner.Barbie (Mar 17, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> I would love too.. when is it? Ill do some research on my own too. It would be awesome to meet you all this is like my favorite thread and I really enjoy all of your company.
> 
> You know if they wanna play dirty and patent every landrace strain that's fine, but there gonna be really pissed off when I patent oxygen.
> 
> If they can do it why can't I?


april 2-3, you gonna go?


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## TheLastWood (Mar 17, 2011)

Its not that far but I have a big job starting this Saturday and I'm gonna be workin 14 hr days 7 days a week till its done. I'm gonna try, I've never been before, I'm definately gonna need a few days off and I can't think of a more fun or "refreshing" way to spend them. Maybe with all the hours ill be working I can fly in n out. Ill do some research on it and definately post here if I can make it.


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 17, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Its not that far but I have a big job starting this Saturday and I'm gonna be workin 14 hr days 7 days a week till its done. I'm gonna try, I've never been before, I'm definately gonna need a few days off and I can't think of a more fun or "refreshing" way to spend them. Maybe with all the hours ill be working I can fly in n out. Ill do some research on it and definately post here if I can make it.


I'd really look at the details of this event guys, I was thinking about going, but then I read into it...
There will be no meds available for purchase, testing, sampling at the event. You have to go to the actual physical locations of the dispensaries that are participating, you know they'll all be crowded because of the event traffic. It just sounds sort of lame to me, but maybe I'm off base. I don't know.


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

Here come the pics...in no order. The more mature Bubbas are about 6 weeks along. There is a pic or 2 of some 4 weeks Bubbas, as well.


















Our Bubba Mama












A Chemdog Plant 5 weeks into bloom that got slipped into a delivery of Bubbas. Helper D hates this little guy. I've had to stop him from killing it twice to make room for the better yielding Bubbas or a Lavander. I want it for head stash. It is a tiny little fucker.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 17, 2011)

Mmm lookin really nice gardener. Can't wait to see a dry bud shot. I don't know if you have any way to do it, but a trichome shot would be really sweet too. I think trich shots are so cool. I got an ok trich shot just holdin my camera up to my handheld mic.

Keep up the good work gardener.


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

Here's some more:








The above shots are of 6 week blooming Bubbas. I was able to turn the flash on to kill the HID light wash. Yes, they smell every bit as good as they look. I came home today just reeking from moving about in the canopy. Helper D has taken on the smell as his normal Man-Scent.



This is my Lavander x Afgan x Purple Kush back crossed with Afgan...or, Laughgani. It's 2.5 weeks into bloom. I have high hopes for the yield per sq ft on these girls. They take as much food and light as you can give them. We'll be running a batch through in 10 gallon pots.


Showing the branching on the Laughgani. The plant has not been trained at all. We do remove some large leaves in veg because there are sometimes 5 or 6 leaves piled on top of one another. Given the shape, I don't feel topping will be beneficial. I did top one just to test it. I also topped and LST's one.



Laughgani in Veg


Laughgani in Veg


These 20 Laughganis are the next bloom crop once the 11 Bubbas at 6 weeks come out. We'll put these in 10 gallon pots this weekend.


Same veging Laughganis



These Bubbas will be topped and bent out into large plants. There veg time will be close to 6 weeks.


These are plants that have been blooming for between 1 and 3 weeks. Some went in pretty big and we needed to raise the lights a bunch. We want to avoid plants going in this tall. Much of the lower growth will need to be removed. We're still finding our stride in this grow. In a few months we'll be on a nice schedule, hopefully yielding much more efficiently. As I have said before, this first crop is just brute force: big pots...big lights. Dealing with limitted plant numbers is new to me. I would typically have 500 plants in this space. It will take me a while to figure out the best way to get the most yield from these plants in this room with only 45 plants to deal with.


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## patrickkawi37 (Mar 17, 2011)

looks really good man. good luck trying to stay under 99, find some beastly strains and get away from that bubba. big buds, sage, power plant, the ultimate, with right co2 you should be able to do 2 ps a light no problem.


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 17, 2011)

looks great though a bit of stretch. is that just the strain or a light issue cus I think your good on light.


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

patrickkawi37 said:


> looks really good man. good luck trying to stay under 99, find some beastly strains and get away from that bubba. big buds, sage, power plant, the ultimate, with right co2 you should be able to do 2 ps a light no problem.


Here in Cali we have to be very careful about just growing anything. Right now, it's a Kush market. I can list 20 killer strains that would out yield my Bubbas 2 to1, but I could also find myself stacking up meds with nowhere to go. Any new strains preferably come from a grower I know and can test the finished product. Any new strains coming from seed must be grown and highgraded, and maybe I get one that will be good enough. That takes up plants numbers. Numbers I don't have. I may work in a new strain, but it's a long precess. I have big hopes for the Laughgani since we have a dispensary begging for it.

I am interested in the Ultimate, but haven't actually had some in my hand. I can't use plant numbers for any bud not top 1%. I may just order up some Ultimate, though. Thanks for reminding me it's out there.


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 17, 2011)

Ive got some ultimate going but there a few month out from the final product, ive seen a few threads on
other sites with it and it a huge yielder but with that theres a give and it looks to be the quality


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## TheLastWood (Mar 17, 2011)

That's just how the bubbas are. Man those laughganis are hardcore. Looks like an exotic jungle strain or something. I've never seen such a thick bushy plant that hasn't been trained into a bush.

Edit: gardener I think to maximise yield those laughganise are like a scrog dream come true. Imagine how far you could get 1 plant to spread out if you only let it get 18 inches tall.


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> looks great though a bit of stretch. is that just the strain or a light issue cus I think your good on light.


 
It's this Bubba pheno. I'm running 62.5 watts/sq ft in veg and 50 watts/sq ft in bloom. My buddy runs 85 watts/sq ft with this Bubba and gets slightly tighter nodes, but not really that much. A few of the plants got a little crowded in veg, as we were finishing construction and were short on room. This spring I'm installing a split AC and running CO2, so I may do a little better. I need to cool the room down a bit, as well. We had some days up over 80 F. It'll take some time, but we'll get it dialed in. Shit, I moved into the warehouse Jan 15! I wasn't even planning on having our first harvest until May 15. We got lucky with getting some plants and will have our first harvest April 5. Anything we get between now and May is just a bonus.


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> Ive got some ultimate going but there a few month out from the final product, ive seen a few threads on
> other sites with it and it a huge yielder but with that theres a give and it looks to be the quality


 
Yeah? Shit. There was alot of hype about the Ultimate being the first high yielding top shelf strain. It sounded too good to be true. Alot of people don't realize how finicky the Cali market has become. I have friends that grow some killer organic AK-47 and they can't get rid of it. Then there's the guys up north with some great organic outdoor. Those poor folks can't give it away. I have yet to see a big yielder that is in high demand.


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 17, 2011)

Wish I still lived in Denver.....now I live in a hillbilly right wing religious republican bull shit state. The year I moved was when prop 20 was passed.... stupid me!!!!


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## collective gardener (Mar 17, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> That's just how the bubbas are. Man those laughganis are hardcore. Looks like an exotic jungle strain or something. I've never seen such a thick bushy plant that hasn't been trained into a bush.
> 
> Edit: gardener I think to maximise yield those laughganise are like a scrog dream come true. Imagine how far you could get 1 plant to spread out if you only let it get 18 inches tall.


Yeah...but then there's the plant numbers thing. I'm going to try and bloom 20 of em about 3 feet tall. They don't get 1 inch taller in bloom. That's right. NO STRETCH. I would love to grow em about 1 foot tall, a plant every sq ft. But, I have 250 sq ft of bloom room to fill.

You may not believe it, but I cut off about 20 leaves from that plant. It's still bushy as hell. I worry abour powdery mildew on a plant like that.


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## collective gardener (Mar 18, 2011)

ENDLSCYCLE said:


> Wish I still lived in Denver.....now I live in a hillbilly right wing religious republican bull shit state. The year I moved was when prop 20 was passed.... stupid me!!!!


I spent so much time staring at your avatar that I felt compelled to reply. Bummer about the relocation. What are the prices like there?


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## TheLastWood (Mar 18, 2011)

Yeah endlscycke has a nice ass. 

Butg gardener I meant those laughganis would be perfect for screen of green. If you only let em get a foot or 16 inches tall and trained them under the screen, forcing them to grow out instead of up, they would cover way more than 1 sq ft. Everybody fims or tops for 4 main tops then trains under the screen but you would save time cuz you don't even have to top them they just grow like a bush already. You could get those plants to spread out over a 3x3 area each! With nothing but tops!

Just a syggestion b ut with the way those plants are I think it would be remarkable


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 18, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Yeah...but then there's the plant numbers thing. I'm going to try and bloom 20 of em about 3 feet tall. They don't get 1 inch taller in bloom. That's right. NO STRETCH. I would love to grow em about 1 foot tall, a plant every sq ft. But, I have 250 sq ft of bloom room to fill.
> 
> You may not believe it, but I cut off about 20 leaves from that plant. It's still bushy as hell. I worry abour powdery mildew on a plant like that.



seriously no Stretch???? hows that work out, I thought all plants stretched once into flower??? (again new to this so this may be a dumb question)


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## patrickkawi37 (Mar 18, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Here in Cali we have to be very careful about just growing anything. Right now, it's a Kush market. I can list 20 killer strains that would out yield my Bubbas 2 to1, but I could also find myself stacking up meds with nowhere to go. Any new strains preferably come from a grower I know and can test the finished product. Any new strains coming from seed must be grown and highgraded, and maybe I get one that will be good enough. That takes up plants numbers. Numbers I don't have. I may work in a new strain, but it's a long precess. I have big hopes for the Laughgani since we have a dispensary begging for it.
> 
> I am interested in the Ultimate, but haven't actually had some in my hand. I can't use plant numbers for any bud not top 1%. I may just order up some Ultimate, though. Thanks for reminding me it's out there.




get the ultimate... you wont regret it and it will sell. ya i hear you on the cali market. im from california as well. southern. seems like everyone wants the "OG" that is supposed to be so much better than everything else. there is a lot of dispensaries down here let me know if you need help getting rid of it


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## buddhalover425 (Mar 18, 2011)

nice room bro...mines is half of yours...i like your construction it seems clean! i hate messy grows


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 18, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I'm running 62.5 watts/sq ft in veg


Hey man were running the same wattage  that's sweet.... I'm learning so much from this thread about large number growing  Something I wish to do in the future, yet is difficult to learn about.. That is why I love RIU so much GOOD.. REAL information shared in accurate terms. That is priceless in todays world..


I just started my Tangerine Dreams into flower, they're on day two now.. let me know if you want a journal link, but I'm sure your busy as hell!! so no worries on that 

The smell is totally amazing though... Like actual tangerines with this sweet, sweet, tropical danky mandarin orange smell laid on top


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 18, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I spent so much time staring at your avatar that I felt compelled to reply. Bummer about the relocation. What are the prices like there?


That's a good question I wouldn't have an answer too......ummmmm.......aaahhhhhh.................I grow.........LOL....I do know a guy tho that deals some dank from kentucky round here....and he lets ozs go for 3.


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## collective gardener (Mar 18, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> Hey man were running the same wattage  that's sweet.... I'm learning so much from this thread about large number growing  Something I wish to do in the future, yet is difficult to learn about.. That is why I love RIU so much GOOD.. REAL information shared in accurate terms. That is priceless in todays world..
> 
> 
> I just started my Tangerine Dreams into flower, they're on day two now.. let me know if you want a journal link, but I'm sure your busy as hell!! so no worries on that
> ...


Shoot the link. I always have time to check out people's gear. That's strain I'm interested in, as well. Anyone growing any Casey Jones?


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## collective gardener (Mar 18, 2011)

patrickkawi37 said:


> get the ultimate... you wont regret it and it will sell. ya i hear you on the cali market. im from california as well. southern. seems like everyone wants the "OG" that is supposed to be so much better than everything else. there is a lot of dispensaries down here let me know if you need help getting rid of it


 
I'll take that Ultimate for a ride. I can just pray for stability, cause I can only allocate a few plants to it until I've seen it all the way through. I'm setting up two more grows that may want to roll some into their stable, as well. I will need to hear quite a bit more than 1 person giving the Ultimate a thumbs up. Anyone out there messed with it???


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## collective gardener (Mar 18, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yeah endlscycke has a nice ass.
> 
> Butg gardener I meant those laughganis would be perfect for screen of green. If you only let em get a foot or 16 inches tall and trained them under the screen, forcing them to grow out instead of up, they would cover way more than 1 sq ft. Everybody fims or tops for 4 main tops then trains under the screen but you would save time cuz you don't even have to top them they just grow like a bush already. You could get those plants to spread out over a 3x3 area each! With nothing but tops!
> 
> Just a syggestion b ut with the way those plants are I think it would be remarkable


Oh, I hear ya. I've run SCROG many o times. When I want that result now, I do more of an LST thing. I don't like dealing with the fixed screen. I made one that was an individual screen attached to each pot, so you could roll the whole thing around. I just can't stand fixed plants. I topped a Laughgani and am bending her down and out as we speak. 

What I'm really interested in is how well they will do grown to 5' or so and being lit with the bare vertical bulbs...or BAVERB, as I call it. The grows I'v seen lit in this manner are soooooo bad ass. I just have to take it for a ride. I've seen 1 - 2 lb plants grown this way. That kind of per/plant yield opens up alot of doors with a plant limit med op. You see where I'm going with this? All of a sudden 99 plants is MORE than enough. 

I may...just for shits...build one of my screens attached to a 10 gallon pot and SCROG one of these girls. I probably would top it once to get a more even canopy. I think once is all it would take with this plant. I'm afraid without topping the main branch is so thick it may be hard to train down.


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## collective gardener (Mar 18, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> seriously no Stretch???? hows that work out, I thought all plants stretched once into flower??? (again new to this so this may be a dumb question)


I shit you not. The plant grows just the same speed as in veg for the first week or so of bloom, and then just stops. It just doesn't do the typical burst of vertical growth in early bloom that every single plant I have ever grown does. It's one of the most unique plants I've ever grown, and the quality is second to none. It was bred in Northern Cal (Mendicino), by a friend of a friend who's goal was simple: as purple and frosty as he could get. The plant was bred for outdoor growing, but does great inddors. The only drawback is that if you don't have at least 50 watts/sq ft, the plant will not do well, and if you don't thin it out a little it can get too bushy, choking light out and leading to powdery mildew.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 18, 2011)

I know what you mean man I've never seen a plant like that before. You should do a solo screen with one just to see how far you can get it to spread out. But I totally here you on the huge plants I remember you talkin about that and bare bulbs in the very begining, it was one of the reasons I subd. If the quality is as good as you say then that's one of the best plants you could have. Ur friend did an awesome job. I'm truly impressed. Makes me wanna get into breeding.

I think it would be really really awesome if u did screen 1. Lst also but another advantage of the screen is you prune anything under the screen so no need for that much penetration. With a plant like that it would spread so far and since its super dense the airspace underneath will help a lot with mousture. If you top it or fim it like u said then screen, I can't even imagine what that thing will look like, I've never seen a plant more suited to scrog.


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## collective gardener (Mar 18, 2011)

We installed 2 new 12" roof exhaust fans in the warehouse today. They set us back $400/fan, but are worth every penny. My temps are back at 75 F in both rooms. These fans are so powerful that regardless of how much hot air we pump into the warehouse from the lights, AC's, and exhaust fans, the main warehouse stays nice and cool.

Now we're ready to install the 3 or 4 ton ductless split AC, with the compressor inside the warehouse. Putting the compressor on the roof just attracts too much attention. We should have the new AC and CO2 system installed by the end of April. At that point, I think we can say that we're done building the grow room. What would have taken us 3 weeks with no plants, is taking us 3 months while trying to grow the crop AND finish the build. There may be a lesson here.


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## incognegro999 (Mar 19, 2011)

will having the compressor inside increase temps inside significantly? this may sound retarded but could you treat the compressor like a "grow room" like build it a room seal it with intake and exhaust? on the plus side took your advice about fan/scrubber. Temps are down 7 degrees to 79, and thats without the window in the vicinity of my intake being open.


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## collective gardener (Mar 19, 2011)

incognegro999 said:


> will having the compressor inside increase temps inside significantly? this may sound retarded but could you treat the compressor like a "grow room" like build it a room seal it with intake and exhaust? on the plus side took your advice about fan/scrubber. Temps are down 7 degrees to 79, and thats without the window in the vicinity of my intake being open.


What I am considering is letting the compressor draw in air from its surroundings. Then, ducting the exhaust from the compressor up to an area near the exhaust fans in the roof. I may install a booster fan in this duct to provide negative pressure for the compressor to exhaust into. Either that, or place the compressor on the roof of the grow room near the exhaust ducting, and ducting up cool air from the warehouse floor to the inlet side of the compressor. I'm leaning towards option 1 to keep the compressor ina cooler area on the warehouse floor. Besides, getting that SOB up on the grow room roof will be quite the chore.


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## incognegro999 (Mar 19, 2011)

Scissor lift would be awesome for that, but not exactly stealth haha. does not sound like a pleasant task. option 1 definitly easiest on the back


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 19, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I shit you not. The plant grows just the same speed as in veg for the first week or so of bloom, and then just stops. It just doesn't do the typical burst of vertical growth in early bloom that every single plant I have ever grown does. It's one of the most unique plants I've ever grown, and the quality is second to none. It was bred in Northern Cal (Mendicino), by a friend of a friend who's goal was simple: as purple and frosty as he could get. The plant was bred for outdoor growing, but does great inddors. The only drawback is that if you don't have at least 50 watts/sq ft, the plant will not do well, and if you don't thin it out a little it can get too bushy, choking light out and leading to powdery mildew.


after searching tude cant seem to find your strain any direction on finding it? also since i already have the Magnum light right now my flower room is 9'x5' but i want to move it and i want to optimize my current equipment. and can now build any size room that would be best for said 1000w light. (if you dont want this here i can take it down just seen what you do and want to do the best i can with what i have)


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## collective gardener (Mar 19, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> after searching tude cant seem to find your strain any direction on finding it? also since i already have the Magnum light right now my flower room is 9'x5' but i want to move it and i want to optimize my current equipment. and can now build any size room that would be best for said 1000w light. (if you dont want this here i can take it down just seen what you do and want to do the best i can with what i have)


This strain is one of those clone only Cali legends. The only reason I have it is because I have some cool friends. It's not available in any seed bank, or as a clone. You could try breeding something like it yourself...I have the genetics...but the breeder spent a LONG time and thousands of plants to get this girl. It was not bred for seed sale, but for commercial growth by the breeder and a few of his friends. As I have said before: Lavender x Afgan x Purple Kush, back crossed with afgan. I don't know how many times it was back crossed. Probably just once, as the purple comes through very strong. I was given the plants with the understanding that no live plant would ever leave my grow room. 

As far as your new room, All I can say is that I light up 20 sq ft with each 1000 watt light. With good reflective walls on all 4 sides, you may get away with a little bigger space, strain dependant.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 19, 2011)

thanks!! 20sqft is what i planned when you said you have over 50watts a sq ft. and as for reflective walls is the panda film sufficient or should i go with light tight or mylar?


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## collective gardener (Mar 19, 2011)

Those of you who read the post from the member who wanted to give me an inductive light to try will be glad to know that it's on the way. He's sending me a 90 watt inductive, an LED I believe a little bigger, and I'm going to buy a 250 watt HPS. I'll start a new thread to conduct a test between the three lights. The guy who sent me the inductive lights is a dealer, but is pretty confident in his product. I asked him if he wanted me to conduct the test in private, pending results...and he said no...post in real time! I like it! You guys know that I'm on no ones payroll. If these things suck, I'll say it. If they rock, I'll say it just as loud. Helper D is setting up a table with 3 - 18" x 18" bays, one for each light. Given the small size of the lights, we will just use one plant per light. We're going to veg the plants all under MH, and just do the test in bloom. We have 3 topped and LST'd Bubbas in 5 gallon pots about 1 foot tall and 18" in diameter ready to go for the test. The lights will be here Monday or Tue. Any input from you guys as far as testing parameters is welcome. Please, be heard now. We certainly don't want to hear all the reasons the test was flawed after the fact. I, above anyone, want a good solid test. If the results are good, we're going to try some more powerful inductive lights in the main grow. I'm hoping that this test will give all of us the information we need about these new lights. I'll let everyone here know when I create the new thread for the test.


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## docrock (Mar 19, 2011)

Ooops, the inductive light will be a 50 watt, equivilant to a 90 watt led with 3 watt LED's


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 19, 2011)

So what is inductive lighting???? and we all know LED(at the low budget level) has no place in the grow room....better used for Christmas lights!!!!!


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## mellokitty (Mar 19, 2011)

tbh i don't really have a good grasp on what inductive lighting IS.... my only undertstanding of the word 'inductive' is in the context of 'inductive heat/elements' (and i don't really get how that works either....).. 

docrock do you mind shedding some light? ()


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## collective gardener (Mar 19, 2011)

ENDLSCYCLE said:


> So what is inductive lighting???? and we all know LED(at the low budget level) has no place in the grow room....better used for Christmas lights!!!!!


Inductive lighting is the new kid on the block. We're just going to try em out and see what happens. I'm hoping the small lights can be offset by using very small plants in a small area. I have seen inductive lighting available in up to 600 watts, which they claim is the same as 1800 watts of HID. I for one, would welcome any REAL option to lower my lighting and cooling costs. We know that HPS uses brute force to get the job done. Don't get me wrong, you see what's in my grow...until I see different HID is what I use. But, I'm going to keep an open mind always. Besides, tests are fun, and put to rest all of the speculation.


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## collective gardener (Mar 19, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> thanks!! 20sqft is what i planned when you said you have over 50watts a sq ft. and as for reflective walls is the panda film sufficient or should i go with light tight or mylar?


 
I'm not the one to ask. I use flat white paint on everything. LOL


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 19, 2011)

for a large area Id go with white pant, panda film would be a costly investment.


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## mellokitty (Mar 19, 2011)

...thank you wiki!! 
i'm very excited for you guys!! (and for the tests, yay!) electrodeless is the wave of the future.

docrock, what is the heat footprint like on these guys?


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 19, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Inductive lighting is the new kid on the block. We're just going to try em out and see what happens. I'm hoping the small lights can be offset by using very small plants in a small area. I have seen inductive lighting available in up to 600 watts, which they claim is the same as 1800 watts of HID. I for one, would welcome any REAL option to lower my lighting and cooling costs. We know that HPS uses brute force to get the job done. Don't get me wrong, you see what's in my grow...until I see different HID is what I use. But, I'm going to keep an open mind always. Besides, tests are fun, and put to rest all of the speculation.


Sounds sweet....LET THE TESTING BEGIN.........what's the price like on the inductive???? are they available to the public yet????


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 19, 2011)

ENDLSCYCLE said:


> Sounds sweet....LET THE TESTING BEGIN.........what's the price like on the inductive???? are they available to the public yet????


wow very interested in this lighting, havnt read all or anything on this lighting? but a 600 being equal to 1800 watts of HID!! and less heat?


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## docrock (Mar 19, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> tbh i don't really have a good grasp on what inductive lighting IS.... my only undertstanding of the word 'inductive' is in the context of 'inductive heat/elements' (and i don't really get how that works either....)..
> 
> docrock do you mind shedding some light? ()


*[edit] Magnetic induction lamps*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:External_Inductor_Type_Induction_Lamp_Dwg.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:External_Inductor_Type_Induction_Lamp_Dwg.jpg
Diagram showing labelled components of a rectangular style, external inductor type, Magnetic Induction Lamp (ballast not shown).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:QL_system_components.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:QL_system_components.jpg
A Philips QL induction lighting system, where A) _Discharge vessel_, B) _Tube with power coupler_ and C) _Electronic ballast_.
Aside from the method of coupling energy into the mercury vapour, these lamps are very similar to conventional fluorescent lamps. Mercury vapour in the discharge vessel is electrically excited to produce short-wave ultraviolet light, which then excites the phosphors to produce visible light. While still relatively unknown to the public, these lamps have been available since 1990. The first type introduced had the shape of an incandescent light bulb. Unlike an incandescent lamp or conventional fluorescent lamps, there is no electrical connection going inside the glass bulb; the energy is transferred _through_ the glass envelope solely by electromagnetic induction.
There are two main types of magnetic induction lamp, external inductor lamps and internal inductor lamps. The original, and still widely used form of induction lamps are the internal inductor types. A more recent development is the external inductor types which have a wider range of applications and which are available in round, rectangular and "olive" shaped form factors.
External inductor lamps are basically fluorescent lamps with electromagnets wrapped around a part of the tube. In the external inductor lamps, high frequency energy, from the electronic ballast, is sent through wires, which are wrapped in a coil around a ferrite inductor on the outside of the glass tube, creating a powerful electromagnet called an inductor. The induction coil (inductor) produces a very strong magnetic field which travels through the glass and excites the mercury atoms in the interior. The mercury atoms are provided by the amalgam (a solid form of mercury). The excited mercury atoms emit UV light and, just as in a fluorescent tube, the UV light is down-converted to visible light by the phosphor coating on the inside of the tube. The glass walls of the lamp prevent the emission of the UV light as ordinary glass blocks UV radiation at the 253.7 nm and 185 nm range.
In the internal inductor form (see diagram), a glass tube (B) protrudes bulb-wards from the bottom of the discharge vessel (A), forming a re-entrant cavity. This tube contains an antenna called a _power coupler_, which consists of a coil wound over a tubular ferrite core. The coil and ferrite forms the inductor which couples the energy into the lamp interior
The antenna coils receive electric power from the electronic ballast (C) that generates a high frequency. The exact frequency varies with lamp design, but popular examples include 13.6 MHz, 2.65 MHz and 250 kHz. A special resonant circuit in the ballast produces an initial high voltage on the coil to start a gas discharge; thereafter the voltage is reduced to normal running level.
The system can be seen as a type of transformer, with the power coupler (inductor) forming the primary coil and the gas discharge arc in the bulb forming the one-turn secondary coil and the load of the transformer. The ballast is connected to mains electricity, and is generally designed to operate on voltages between 100 and 277 VAC at a frequency of 50 or 60 Hz. Many ballasts are available in low voltage models so can also be connected to DC voltage sources like batteries for emergency lighting purposes of for use with renewable energy (solar & wind) powered systems.
In other conventional gas discharge lamps, the electrodes are the part with the shortest life, limiting the lamp lifespan severely. Since an induction lamp has no electrodes, it can have a very long service life. For induction lamp systems with a separate ballast, the service life can be as long as 100,000 hours, which is 11.4 years continuous operation. For induction lamps with integrated ballast, the lifespan is in the 15,000 to 50,000 hours range. Extremely high-quality electronic circuits are needed for the ballast to attain such a long service life. Such lamps are typically used in commercial or industrial applications. Typically operations and maintenance costs are significantly lower with induction lighting systems due to their industry average 100,000 hour life cycle and five to ten year warranty.
*[edit] Advantages*


Long lifespan due to the lack of electrodes - between 65,000 and 100,000 hours depending on the lamp model; 
Very high energy conversion efficiency of between 62 and 90 Lumens/Watt [higher wattage lamps are more energy efficient]; 
High power factor due to the low loss of the high frequency electronic ballasts which are typically between 95% and 98% efficient; 
Minimal Lumen depreciation (declining light output with age) compared to other lamp types as filament evaporation and depletion is absent; 
Instant-on and hot re-strike, unlike most conventional lamps used in commercial/industrial lighting applications (such as Mercury-vapor lamp, Sodium-vapor lamp and Metal halide lamp); 
Environmentally friendly as induction lamps use less energy, and use less mercury per hour of operation than conventional lighting due to their long lifespan. The mercury is in a solid form and can be easily recovered if the lamp is broken, or for recycling at end-of-life.[12] 
These benefits offer a considerable cost savings of between 35% and 55% in energy and maintenance costs for induction lamps compared to other types of commercial and industrial lamps which they replace.


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## docrock (Mar 19, 2011)

They are much cooler than HPS/MH and a little hotter than leds, but unlike leds they have no cooling fans.


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 19, 2011)

so how come there aint more info/grow trails with these? is it cost?


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 19, 2011)

yeah....but what's the cost.....$1000+ to equal what my 600w HPS puts out..sorry to hack your thread Collective!!!


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## collective gardener (Mar 19, 2011)

Looks like Docrock is our new local induction lighting guy. I'm almost afraid to ask about pricing. Docrock, what is the current state of production on these bad boys? Are the commercial use units the same as the growing units...meaning can us growers expect a price drop as they become more popular in the commercial circles? Do you have any spectrum info? You may as well post the prices. We gotta know sooner or later. I'd also be curious to know what the markup is on these things wholesale vs retail. I have alot of experience with Marine Electronics (radar, plotters, etc...), and there is very little markup on these items...like 15%. I keep hoping when I see these huge prices on Plasma lighting and the like that there is a 100% markup, and I could expect big savings by purchasing 15 lights or so. Any info on that front?

Sitck around Doc...I have a feeling that this little group of Grow Junkies is going to be grilling you pretty good. LOL

Kitty, how do we Baverb these lights? Tape em together back to back?


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## collective gardener (Mar 19, 2011)

ENDLSCYCLE said:


> yeah....but what's the cost.....$1000+ to equal what my 600w HPS puts out..sorry to hack your thread Collective!!!


 
No worries, Endless. It's about the learning for all of us. 

I'm just happy that we have 500+ replies and only 1 really negative response (California Tsunami guy), and one borderline neg response (another Cali comment). If you look through the threads with this many people involved, you'll see that this group has done great. I'd be thrilled to
burn with every one of you fuckers! That's it...group hit...I'm heating up the Vap.


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## incognegro999 (Mar 19, 2011)

There really is nothing to complain about in this thread haha. One of my favorites on here. A large scale op with pics and a grower willing to share/answer questions. And a grower who no question knows what the hell he's talking about. Only ones negative around these parts are trolls/attention whores. Sermon over lol


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 19, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> That's it...group hit...I'm heating up the Vap.


he says...


as I draw blueberry vapor slowly from my volcano


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 19, 2011)

I'll take that vap wand from ya!!!!Pass to the left!!!!LOL


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## mellokitty (Mar 20, 2011)

they look like they'd baverb just fine on their own (at least the diagram at wiki does....); there's a ballast involved...? i don't know how well i would handle baverbing the fluoro-style induction bulb though -- i can't deal with vert fluoros, give me a headache in 2.2 minutes. although, when you take out conventional fluoro issues like flicker and refresh rate (which induction seems to) this may be less of a problem for me. which makes it EVEN MORE exciting. omg.

i'm kind of a grass-whore. will trade sexual favours for primo. does it still count if i only have the one client and he's kind of legally bound?


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## collective gardener (Mar 20, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> they look like they'd baverb just fine on their own (at least the diagram at wiki does....); there's a ballast involved...? i don't know how well i would handle baverbing the fluoro-style induction bulb though -- i can't deal with vert fluoros, give me a headache in 2.2 minutes. although, when you take out conventional fluoro issues like flicker and refresh rate (which induction seems to) this may be less of a problem for me. which makes it EVEN MORE exciting. omg.
> 
> i'm kind of a grass-whore. will trade sexual favours for primo. does it still count if i only have the one client and he's kind of legally bound?


 
I have to get used to Baverb even with 600 HID's. We hung 2 for a couple days while I was waiting for reflectors. I'm not used to having those lights at eye level blasting out my retnas. 20 years dealing with hoods, I wasn't ready for the vert bare bulb. My eyes were cooked for the whole night. I have no idea how you guys work in the room with all of those lights shining in your face. I need me some welding goggles.

The whore thing only counts if hubby leaves the buds on the nightstand for you in the morning.


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I need me some welding goggles.


Are you wearing Polarized sun glasses? Polarized blocks out 50% of the light, rather than just being a dark lens.


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## collective gardener (Mar 20, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> Are you wearing Polarized sun glasses? Polarized blocks out 50% of the light, rather than just being a dark lens.


To be honest, on that day I wasn't wearing any glasses at all! It was raining out and I left shades at house. Now we keep some in the grow. They're polarized. My commercial buddy (I keep calling him that...he needs a name...Commercial J) keeps a huge rimmed hat, tyvek suit, old lady wrap around shades, and booties outside the door of his grow. Everyone suits up before entry. Since he started the "suit up" thing he hasn't had an infestation of any kind. 

Which reminds me. I purchased 8 clones from a place called "Cloneville" a few weeks back. I just did it for Helper D, who is new to all this and wanted some different strains of his own to grow in the room. He got 2 LA Confidential, 2 Super Lemon Haze, 2 New York Diesel, and 2 Trainwreck. They were $120 for all 8. 5 days later both trainwrecks and 1 lemon haze were dead. Within 2 weeks the only decent plants were 1 New York Diesel and both LA Confidential...we chucked the rest. The Diesel got pretty big, so I took 2 clones and promised her to a friend so that she could grow it this summer in her backyard. The Confidential was being transplanted 2 days ago and Helper D called me over to look at some "wierd spots". The thing was loaded with mites. Into the trash it went and out came the Dr. Doom. Bottom line is Fuck these commercial clone selling places. 1 out of 8 made it and they could have wiped out my whole grow. Fortunately, we caught it in time. If you must buy genetics, buy seed. I have a feeling the quality of these clones was junk anyways. Face it, would any of you sell a cutt from a really good plant of yours for 15 bucks? I don't think other people would either.


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## mellokitty (Mar 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I have to get used to Baverb even with 600 HID's. We hung 2 for a couple days while I was waiting for reflectors. I'm not used to having those lights at eye level blasting out my retnas. 20 years dealing with hoods, I wasn't ready for the vert bare bulb. My eyes were cooked for the whole night. I have no idea how you guys work in the room with all of those lights shining in your face. I need me some welding goggles.
> 
> The whore thing only counts if hubby leaves the buds on the nightstand for you in the morning.



as long as you've been okay with HID's in general, it should get easier (and yes. welding goggles are good). i find that the baverbs are hardest on the peripheral vision. i have one friend in particular who gets light poisoning from HIDs; doesn't seem like fun.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 20, 2011)

"Have you ever sucked dick for weed?!" Best movie ever.
It doesn't really make you a ho bur everyone likes a little role p,ay. You got it easy, I make my girl dress up like a weed plant lol


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 20, 2011)

incognegro999 said:


> will having the compressor inside increase temps inside significantly? this may sound retarded but could you treat the compressor like a "grow room" like build it a room seal it with intake and exhaust? on the plus side took your advice about fan/scrubber. Temps are down 7 degrees to 79, and thats without the window in the vicinity of my intake being open.


I've seen this done before, and it worked beautifully. The intake and exhaust should be routed to exterior air (at a good strong volume of movement) for peak efficiency.
A friend of mine did this so as not to have a noisy ac compressor running outside in the middle of winter, I thought it was a brilliant idea.


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Shoot the link. I always have time to check out people's gear. That's strain I'm interested in, as well. Anyone growing any Casey Jones?


I grow Casey Jones. Fucking beautiful, man. I'm a picky SOB, to the point where I pretty much turn my nose up at what most people proffer to me these days and I LOVE Casey Jones. It's an outstanding yielder, fairly easy to grow and the quality is supreme. Great bag appeal, one of the smelliest strains around and it has a great uplifting high. One of my all around favorites. She is one of the most vigorous plants I've ever grown as well, gets absolutely HUGE and in a hurry. You really have to work to control height, but that's my only complaint. It's one of those strains that everyone asks for repeatedly, people don't seem to get tired of it, at least not yet. 

I grow mostly organically in five gallon Smart Pots with about a month of veg, I super crop and train to a screen. 

Winning.


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## docrock (Mar 20, 2011)

No, not 1000 dollars. Somewhere around 500 dollars, plus shipping, for an inductive light that would equal a 600 watt HID. Is it worth it? The truth should be in the testing.


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## Feirefiz (Mar 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Verde, I wish I knew! It's a strain a commercial grower friend grows to offer something in a purple. That plant was started indoors and flowered outside in winter. We harvested it around thankgiving. While the cold night added to the darkness of the color, it's still pretty dark when flowered inside. Several of the best strains I've ever sampled have no names and a questionable heritage. If people want to take a guess as to the strain, I'd love to hear it.


looks like bc purple kush, altho i have no idea the actual strain, it is kinda famous around here

look familiar? these are light purple done indoors, lowest temp was 80 but my buddys outdoor looked identical to yours, 

btw great thread i love how you made your little watering tables out of siding, im going to try that


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## docrock (Mar 20, 2011)

I think the reason there is so little around about them is because they are relatively new and un tested. Cost is higher than HID's and Lower than LED's. They are very much cooler than HID's, a little hotter than LED"S but they don't require cooling fans and heat sinks as LED's do.


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 20, 2011)

docrock said:


> No, not 1000 dollars. Somewhere around 500 dollars, plus shipping, for an inductive light that would equal a 600 watt HID. Is it worth it? The truth should be in the testing.


Sounds great....can't wait to see the results....only thing I wish Collective would do is veg under them as well.....what kind of spectrum and lumens would the 600w equal put out?


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## collective gardener (Mar 20, 2011)

ENDLSCYCLE said:


> Sounds great....can't wait to see the results....only thing I wish Collective would do is veg under them as well.....what kind of spectrum and lumens would the 600w equal put out?


Yeah...I feel the same. Docrock, what's the options on spectrum? How bout cost of the bigger ones? Like one equel to 1000 watt+ HID. As you know, I haven't made the switch to 600's yet. Nor do I intend to. So, we need spectrum info, and pricing info on all. Just ball park is fine...I know you're feeling things out.


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## docrock (Mar 20, 2011)

*Below figures supplied by factory. As for the spectrum produced. Producer claims that gasse's used produce 90% usefull light for the plants, the gase's can be adjusted to alter the spectrum. This puts the energy where it can be used instead of into heat or unused colors of the spectrum. Again, factory numbers. The test should shed some light on if the lights do as claimed. *
*LED Grow Lights = 12 Lumen/Watt with a 100+% Effective Absorbable Spectrum = 12 Effective Lumen/Watt.*
*HPS/MH Grow Lights = 100 lumen/watt with 10+% Effective Absorbable Spectrum = 10 Effective Lumen/Watt.*
*Bi-Spec. Super Grow Lights = 45 Lumen/Watt with a 90+% Effective Absorbable Spectrum = 40.5 Effective Lumen/Watt.*


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## iPACKEDthisBOWL4TWO (Mar 20, 2011)

Hey collective..... if im out of line just tell me. Would you or anyone you know be interested in hiring a disabled vet? ABSOLUTELY NO PITTY PARTY HERE. I just love growing and it would be my dream job to "apprentice" under one of you guys. Its hard to find work when you get home from the war...... people are finnicky about hiring us.....which is bullshit but it is what it is.


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## docrock (Mar 20, 2011)

An inductive light equivilant to a 1600 watt HID would be in the neighborhood of 750$, plus shipping. The equivilant of a 600 watt HID would be around 375$ plus shipping. The largest one I have has a shipping weight of 45 pounds. 

I agree on the veg thought. I have seen plants veg well under the small lamp but the particular plant grew red round thingeees that were impossible to smoke. I imagine they work well with all plants but I want to know for sure before I personally make any claims. Maybe Collective could put a sprout into the enclosure with the flowering plant if theres room?


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## docrock (Mar 20, 2011)

I'm learning as well as the rest of you, maybe one step ahead of you. I do have a slight background in electronics furnished by the Navy and that knowledge is what helped the inductive lights catch my attention, that and knowing LED's aren't the greatest and cost a lot, HID's work great but the heat sucks. As for your experience with marine electronic's, I have a little bit there, mostly as a buyer and installing my own, which, brings me to an off toppic subject. Do you know anything about the new Radar Lowrance has out? Specs make it look great, just curious. Just a thought, maybe a trade for a light or two? I don't know how involved you are in marine electronics but its just a thought. I am also aware of the very low markup on marine electronics. As for the inductive lights. The factory told me a 40% for retail is what I should ask, so, you can see theres room for deals there. Also, at this point, with my relativly small orders the shipping costs are high and should come down if I increase the order size. As for the spectral output, factory claims say they have used gasse's in the tubes that only produce usefull light for plants. Its very noticable that both tubes of the lights are different colors when operating. In another post I offered the lumen's per watt information. I am not very computer litereate and haven't been able to tranfer the comparison of the different spectral outputs of LED, HID and Inductive. If anybody out there has access to something that can test the output I'd like to hear from you. 

Thanks


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## docrock (Mar 20, 2011)

I don't have any figures, I can hold my hand against the light case and 1/4 in away from the glass covering the lights, approximatly 2 inch's from the tubes without having to move them. All lights but the 50 watt unit are fully enclosed and water proof. I can hold my back of my hand 1/4 inch away from a 50 watt tube without having to move it due to heat.



mellokitty said:


> ...thank you wiki!!
> i'm very excited for you guys!! (and for the tests, yay!) electrodeless is the wave of the future.
> 
> docrock, what is the heat footprint like on these guys?


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## collective gardener (Mar 20, 2011)

docrock said:


> An inductive light equivilant to a 1600 watt HID would be in the neighborhood of 750$, plus shipping. The equivilant of a 600 watt HID would be around 375$ plus shipping. The largest one I have has a shipping weight of 45 pounds.
> 
> I agree on the veg thought. I have seen plants veg well under the small lamp but the particular plant grew red round thingeees that were impossible to smoke. I imagine they work well with all plants but I want to know for sure before I personally make any claims. Maybe Collective could put a sprout into the enclosure with the flowering plant if theres room?


These prices are doable. I don't do the thing where I want lower prices whatever the original quote. I'm not in that business anymore. 

Listen gang, it's not like I've started the test yet. I can veg em for a while. I just can't compare em to a MH cause I don't want to buy a 250 watt MH and I do not like conversion bulbs. But, if you guys want to just see what they can do veging, no problem. With veg growth, you really don't need a side by side. We can all tell if the growth is good or bad just by looking. Just weigh in and let me know.

I want to be very clear. This is the group's test. Not just mine. Helper D and I are working for you guys on this one. These lights sound more and more promising when I hear of the prices. Let's just all make sure that we get this test done right so we really know. I can already tell that if it goes well, we will be getting the powerful ones and pitting them against a 1000 watt HPS. God knows I have enough of those.


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## docrock (Mar 20, 2011)

A simply explaination. When electricty goes through a wire it creates a magnetic field around the wire. If you place another wire close to the first one it will pick up the magnetic field and transfer some of the electricity to it. This is how transformers work. Rather than running a filiment into a glass enclosure induction lights create a magnetic field around the glass, gas filled enclosure. The electricty tranfered by induction to the inside of the tubes excites the gas and creates light, colors of the light to be determined by the gase's used. A lack of an electrode of any kind is what allows manufacture's to claim 100,000 hours lifespan of the lights. Anyone out there correct me where I'm wrong.


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 20, 2011)

I'm with you on the veg thing...let's just see what it does.....veg one out for a couple weeks....then when it's ready for flower....bring in three more clones for the flower test between the three lights.


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 20, 2011)

docrock said:


> A simply explaination. When electricty goes through a wire it creates a magnetic field around the wire. If you place another wire close to the first one it will pick up the magnetic field and transfer some of the electricity to it. This is how transformers work. Rather than running a filiment into a glass enclosure induction lights create a magnetic field around the glass, gas filled enclosure. The electricty tranfered by induction to the inside of the tubes excites the gas and creates light, colors of the light to be determined by the gase's used. A lack of an electrode of any kind is what allows manufacture's to claim 100,000 hours lifespan of the lights. Anyone out there correct me where I'm wrong.


Correct .


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 20, 2011)

I cant wait to see how this turns out!


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (Mar 20, 2011)

Here is a grow using 2 400w Induction.

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/401594-blue-dream-800w-induction-lights.html


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## collective gardener (Mar 20, 2011)

The Laughganis were getting way too crowded in the veg room floor. Since it will be over a week until they go into bloom, I decided to take the breeders advice and do a major thin down od the outside of the plant. The breeder of this strain advises to remove all fan leaves extending outside the shoots approx 1 week before bloom. This enables you to get more plants into a given area, and gives the growing shoots 1 last blast of veg light prior to blooming. He says that while removing all these leaves _may _slightly affect yield, the additional plants that can be put in the same area more than makes up for this...therefore increasing overall density of buds in a given area. Since I'm new to this strain, and the breeder has 10 years experience with her, I chose to listen to him and do some major trimming. 

It took 2 hours, but I'm very happy with the results. Prior to trimming, the plants were very crowded and light was only hitting the top canopy. Now, you'll see nice clean rows with light hitting all the way down the outside of the plants. I know some people NEVER remove healthy fan leaves, but I've done so with good results over the last several years. Anyways, here's the results:


Before trimming


After Trimming


Pretty fat stock for a 2 foot tall plant


Trimmed plants allow for nice bucket spacing. You can see some light on the floor, telling me that the sides of the plant are getting some nice pre-bloom light.



The Bubba on the right was going to be our mother. At second thought, we decided we really don't need a dedicated mother. We can just take a couple cuts from the plants before they go into bloom. So, I assigned Helper D the awful task of killing her today. The room she takes up can veg 4 Laughganis. I called him an hour ago and he hadn't done the deed yet. I don't know if he's got the stomach for such a mission. If not, I'll do it tomorrow. I wish I had an outdoor space to plant her in. What can I say; she's doing more harm thatn good. There's no room in the bloom room and we need the space for the plants coming off of the table. 


2 more DWC Bubbas. The one on the left is Rodan (Godzilla fans will recognize the name), and the one on the right is Little Rico.

So, there's the veg room floor. Helper D is transplanting all of these Laughganis to 10 gallon pots today and tomorrow. Then 7 - 10 more days in veg and off to the bloom room. They seemed to have maxed out in the 5 gallon buckets they are in. I saw the rootball on one as I was leaving today. I've never seen so many roots from a 2 foot plant not topped or trained in a 5 gallon bucket. If we end up trying for 4 foot plants, I believe we will have to go into 15 or maybe 20 gallon pots.


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## collective gardener (Mar 20, 2011)

Some bloom room pics from today:


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## collective gardener (Mar 20, 2011)

I uploaded premature. That hasn't happened since I was a teenager. Here's round 2.








The larger plants are about 4.5 weeks into bloom. They vegged 10 days longer than the ones almost done, and are in 10 gallon pots, rather than 5's. That 10 days and bigger pots looks to be the difference between a 4 oz plants and an 8 oz plant. All future plants will spend at least 7 days in a 10+ gallon pot prior to blooming. The plants in the 5's really should be watered twice per day. Sometimes we can't get to them and the pot is very light when we water. We're hoping that going to minimum 10 gallons and switching from Sumshine #4 to pure coco will give us enough water retention for once daily watering. If we need to go to 15 gallon pots, we will. In the past, I've mixed in 20% rockwool croutons into Sunshine to hold more water. This is also an option. With 1000 watt lights and 40% - 50% RH, the amount of water used is amazing. This is with the Bubbas. The Laughganis in veg use more water than the Bubbas, so when they go in we'll really have to watch them. I believe that the 5 gallon pots were too small for crop 1 and cost us some yield. It's just all a part of getting this big plant thing figured out.


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## mellokitty (Mar 20, 2011)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to collective gardener again.


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 20, 2011)

jesus christ man thats a LOT of soil


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## collective gardener (Mar 20, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to collective gardener again.


Ok, gang. Let's head on over to Kitty's house for a Rep-Fest.


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## mellokitty (Mar 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Ok, gang. Let's head on over to Kitty's house for a Rep-Fest.


woo hoo! new pics tonight or tomorrow!
i love rep-orgies!


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## TheLastWood (Mar 20, 2011)

Man that's so beautiful. Pretty good first run, especially when you weren't expectin one yet.


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 20, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to collective gardener again.


funny you say that, lol yah i post before finding out I couldnt rep him but the man deserves it anyhow.

BUT THANK YOU KITTY FOR THE HEADS UP


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## mellokitty (Mar 20, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> funny you say that, lol yah i post before finding out I couldnt rep him but the man deserves it anyhow.
> 
> BUT THANK YOU KITTY FOR THE HEADS UP


lol, i just post that up whenever i try to rep slut and get denied....


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 21, 2011)

So what brand are these gonna be?????...been looking around now and have seen a couple companies offering some pretty sweet looking lights for a decent price.


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## Stealthbomb (Mar 21, 2011)

wow looks great keep up the great work and keep on keepin on


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## collective gardener (Mar 21, 2011)

Here's some pics of our 2 special plants. Godzilla is our Bubba DWC test. She's been in bloom about 5 days and there is a problem. We put in fresh nutes about 1000ppm, and 3 days later it was 300ppm. The 4 gallons in the bucket just isn't enough to feed this thirsty girl. May have to go the interconnected buckets with a res route. 

The other plant is our test Lavander cross we put into bloom about 2.5 weeks ago. The plant is incredible. The density is outstanding. The bud sites are just stacked on top of eachother. The small is kind of a bitter fruity smell. Not the sweet dank of the Kush. It's very powerful for under 3 weeks in bloom. As you walk up to it, you can smell it through the Bubba's quite clearly. The breeder warned us about the smell. I can't even imagine what it will be like in another couple weeks.

We added another 1000 watt light in the bloom room and took out 1 - 600 watt light. I'm in the process of ducting fresh air into the lights to avoid an odor problem. Right now they get supplied from the room and the exhaust goes un-filtered. We are starting to notice odor in the main warehouse area. 


DWC Godzilla a couple days into bloom

Godzilla

The following are the Lavander cross 2.5 weeks into bloom. We have very high hopes for this strain out yielding the Bubba 2 to 1.















We added some lights to the bloom room to the area that was originally supposed to be our walkway. Every grow I've done has had this happen. 



Helper D wanted me to show you guys his soil mixing tub. He's so proud.


That's it for now. The inductive light should be here tomorrow and we'll begin the test on Wed. He sent me the price list and they are way affordable. I'm dying to try the 400 watt version. They clain it has the same growing power of 1800 watts of HID. The paperwork also states that the spectrum is suitable for both veg and bloom. The spectrum graph, if it is true, is the best I've ever seen in a light.


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## Gopedxr (Mar 22, 2011)

Pics look amazing man!! What do you think about obama bringing on the heat with the DEA though? Only those with out lawers worry?


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 22, 2011)

i try not to watch the news it just pisses me off to no end, but whats up with this dea thing?
they turning up the heat?


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## NDO (Mar 22, 2011)

Agreed, those raids in Montana were absolute garbage...

Been watching the grow for awhile now CG, looks amazing, finally figured out how to subscribe, keep up the amazing job...I know we all really appreciate it...


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## collective gardener (Mar 23, 2011)

Gopedxr said:


> Pics look amazing man!! What do you think about obama bringing on the heat with the DEA though? Only those with out lawers worry?


That so harshes my mellow. I have 2 lawyers and I worry my ass off. So much so that I sometimes can't even smoke my favorite sativa for fear of some paranoia kicking in. 

I grew all my life underground till this grow. At least now there is some protection from the Man. We all have a big bull's eye on our back. The good news is we're a herd of hundreds and the hunter only has one bullet. (relatively). Every single person I know who got busted made a fundamental mistake somewhere down the line. My attorney has stories upon stories of how stupid his clients that got busted were. I have paid him $300/hr on more than one occasion to hear these stories. They make me feel safe. 

As far as Montana, running a storefront op is way too dangerous for me. They know where you are. All they have to do is make a case. I figure, with a private collective grow op, first they have to find you, then they still have to make their case.


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## collective gardener (Mar 23, 2011)

So, Helper D and I took a drive down to a dispensary to check out their Bubba and Og. Helper D picked up a gram of each one for $28 per gram! I bought Helper D an 1/8th of Super Silver Haze cause he's never tried a Haze. First off, the Bubba is about 5 steps below ours. I was thrilled. This was a fact finding mission and the fact is we were very VERY lucky to have generous commercial growing friends willing to donate their best strains to our collective. Then...this is great...Helper D fires up a bowl of the OG and there's 2 big fuckin ants in the bud! We dig through all the stash and find a dog hair, 3 more ants, and a dash of PM I confirmed with the 60X scope. And, no readily visable crystals. So, this is the competition. I was going to bring them a sample of our Bubba, but now don't even want our stash associated with the place. BTW, this is no Ghetto pot shop...this was in Malibu! $28/gram!


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## dlively11 (Mar 23, 2011)

I dont know how I missed this but GREAT JOB !!! Man what I would do to have a nice workspace like that !! 

8K for vegging wow that is a lot. I have 11K for bloom right now and only 1-600 watt, 15 -55 watt T5s, 2- 35 watt CFL and 2- 50 watt floros. So 12.6 K total. I am doing smaller plants in SOG though so mine dont get over 10-12 inches in veg. FYI epxect to start using about 10K Kilawatt hours per month. Gets expensive really quick ! I havent looked through this much yet but so far but I love what you have done. You did it right from the start.


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## dlively11 (Mar 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Here in Cali we have to be very careful about just growing anything. Right now, it's a Kush market. I can list 20 killer strains that would out yield my Bubbas 2 to1, but I could also find myself stacking up meds with nowhere to go. Any new strains preferably come from a grower I know and can test the finished product. Any new strains coming from seed must be grown and highgraded, and maybe I get one that will be good enough. That takes up plants numbers. Numbers I don't have. I may work in a new strain, but it's a long precess. I have big hopes for the Laughgani since we have a dispensary begging for it.
> 
> I am interested in the Ultimate, but haven't actually had some in my hand. I can't use plant numbers for any bud not top 1%. I may just order up some Ultimate, though. Thanks for reminding me it's out there.


I dont like most Kushes Yields. Original Bubba yields are terrible, great smoke but terrible yields. Master Kush is pretty good yielder but hard to clone prone to PM. I have a Banana Kush that has HUGE colas and smells very dank. I am finishing some up as we speak. Look into Cheese. Would be great for SCROG or LST. Also Green Crack. Most mine are shorter high yielding plants but both of those can give you 2 lbs per light easy and have great smell/bag appeal. I'll try to think of some others.


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> So, Helper D and I took a drive down to a dispensary to check out their Bubba and Og. Helper D picked up a gram of each one for $28 per gram! I bought Helper D an 1/8th of Super Silver Haze cause he's never tried a Haze. First off, the Bubba is about 5 steps below ours. I was thrilled. This was a fact finding mission and the fact is we were very VERY lucky to have generous commercial growing friends willing to donate their best strains to our collective. Then...this is great...Helper D fires up a bowl of the OG and there's 2 big fuckin ants in the bud! We dig through all the stash and find a dog hair, 3 more ants, and a dash of PM I confirmed with the 60X scope. And, no readily visable crystals. So, this is the competition. I was going to bring them a sample of our Bubba, but now don't even want our stash associated with the place. BTW, this is no Ghetto pot shop...this was in Malibu! $28/gram!


Thats insane... I get $28 an eighth on the stuff attached, 8 dollars a gram on an oz.

I get this stuff from _probably_ your area 


*tisk tisk* dispensaries!

Any pics of this $28 a gram?


ps: helper d is a fortunate fellow to be learning in person from you, i feel lucky to have stumbled upon the thread in the beginning!


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## TheLastWood (Mar 23, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> Thats insane... I get $28 an eighth on the stuff attached, 8 dollars a gram on an oz.
> 
> I get this stuff from _probably_ your area
> 
> ...


I know right. What a good apprenticeship to have... "what we doin today boss?" "We gonna get u some haze boi."


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## CallmeTex (Mar 23, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> I know right. What a good apprenticeship to have... "what we doin today boss?" "We gonna get u some haze boi."


Thats the funniest shit I've heard all week!
What does "PM" mean? I assume mold, but ?


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## mellokitty (Mar 23, 2011)

*$28/gram* and the REST of the dispensaries haven't laughed them out of existence yet??
what the hell is going on in the states??
maybe that's why dispensaries haven't taken off here. there is a prevailing idea that cannabis should be *more accessible to the people who use it medicinally, not less. with all the competent growers about, i don't know a single medicard holder (and i know dozens) that would be rather pay triple the street price than give the same amount of $$ to a friend to grow it for them. the only people i know that go to disps don't have the space or wherewithal to start their own show, but they live right downtown where space and privacy are hot, unavailable commodities. (not that that stopped me, back in the day ) shit, you could start yourself a swank 2banger for the price of a couple ounces. tbh i don't know what they're charging at either of our disps here now but i bet it ain't *that.


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 23, 2011)

thats a rip off all the way around!!


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## collective gardener (Mar 24, 2011)

dlively11 said:


> I dont like most Kushes Yields. Original Bubba yields are terrible, great smoke but terrible yields. Master Kush is pretty good yielder but hard to clone prone to PM. I have a Banana Kush that has HUGE colas and smells very dank. I am finishing some up as we speak. Look into Cheese. Would be great for SCROG or LST. Also Green Crack. Most mine are shorter high yielding plants but both of those can give you 2 lbs per light easy and have great smell/bag appeal. I'll try to think of some others.


Yeah, I've seen your yields a few times. Pretty impressive. I like your Casey Jones. Is this right? Or am I thinking of someone else?
I just hate starting from seeds. We need one or 2 different plants that are bigger yielders, but hate the high grading poreocess. Also, I have to produce X amount of Bubba and Lav for commitments on that end. I'd love to hear more about your genetics source. Maybe via PM.


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## drgreenery (Mar 24, 2011)

Kitty,

Some people dont know how or want to grow. Do you pay retail for food from your supermarket or do you grow/farm you own food? Same difference.

Nice grow, bro. I have a very similar setup in Cali in a warehouse. Thanks for the info on this grow it has helped me a lot.


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## drgreenery (Mar 24, 2011)

Ive had problems growing bubbas too. Low yields and prone to PM as well.

But love to smoke it and its hybrids.

On another note plan to post a thread for my commercial grow too CG, really appreciate people like you spreading the knowledge around.


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## collective gardener (Mar 24, 2011)

drgreenery said:


> Ive had problems growing bubbas too. Low yields and prone to PM as well.
> 
> But love to smoke it and its hybrids.
> 
> On another note plan to post a thread for my commercial grow too CG, really appreciate people like you spreading the knowledge around.


Be sure to post the link to your thread right here. We have plenty of warehouse grow fans hanging around these parts. There's also some real talent hanging around here.


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## slk (Mar 24, 2011)

Have you got an electric bill yet? I love this thread. +reps dude


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## mellokitty (Mar 25, 2011)

drgreenery said:


> Kitty,
> 
> Some people dont know how or want to grow. Do you pay retail for food from your supermarket or do you grow/farm you own food? Same difference.


no doubt i'm a spoiled bc-ite; i've made a mental note to check out what the local disps are charging but the last time 'dispensary' prices hit the 20s here they got laughed out of existence. we have entire townships here where 1 in 3 rentals has a grow in it; "supply" isn't often an issue, whereas "greed" quite often is.
personally, especially considering the quality of product is probably the same here, you wouldn't catch me paying $30/lb for broccoli at the grocery store when i could buy it off the street for $10, either.


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## SCCA (Mar 25, 2011)

slk said:


> Have you got an electric bill yet? I love this thread. +reps dude


Isnt that kind of like asking a woman her age?  agian, beautiful plants gardener.


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## collective gardener (Mar 25, 2011)

slk said:


> Have you got an electric bill yet? I love this thread. +reps dude


 
What's the deal with all the buzz kill questions:

"worried about DEA"..."what's the electrical bill"...wtf?

Of course I'm worried.

If you're that interested in my electrical bill, you can easily figure it out. I pay .15/KWH. That's 15 cents per kilowatt hr. All the information you need is on the thread to calulate my electrical bill.


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 25, 2011)

Just ignore the _silly_ questions 

I'm going to check my plants CG, they are popping out pistils on day 9 flower here


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## NDO (Mar 25, 2011)

Screw the electrical bill....Just keep posting updates and pic's of this amazing grow...Also good to see the place didn't fall apart while Helper D vaca'd


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## jnuggs (Mar 25, 2011)

YO collective.. your grow is looking good man. I thought your plants looked great for having to be around all of the work going down in the shop! I know what you mean when you say it's hard to build/work around them when they're bigger. Feels like you're constantly looking for a child running around that you're going to hurt, even though it's a stationary plant.. hahaha! 

Now iffin' ya get a good sized warehouse grow going, completely legitimate (with the Fire Department, everything), all permits, etc. You need to outfit THAT warehouse with a SUNROOF!!!


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 25, 2011)

So you get that donated lighting yet??? Really eager to see the results!!!!


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 25, 2011)

SCCA said:


> Isnt that kind of like asking a woman her age?  agian, beautiful plants gardener.


 And no....you have to ask that question....I like em young....and you never know these days....I think it's something in the water!!!!


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## collective gardener (Mar 25, 2011)

ENDLSCYCLE said:


> So you get that donated lighting yet??? Really eager to see the results!!!!


The lights are sitting here in a box. I just need to get some time together to set up a little table to conduct the test on. I don't want to just slap something together. It should be a good test do that we can all make a sound decision. I'll say this: After getting the lights I started really checking out the inductive lighting thing. I believe we may finally have a replacement for HID. If I were running Sog or Scrog settup I would be getting a couple big lights right now. I'm just not quite sold on the penetration yet.


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## tremend00oo (Mar 26, 2011)

hey collective gardener ... how big is the enitre warehouse? and did you have to disclose what your operation was going to be when leasing it? did they ask for special requirement ?


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## mellokitty (Mar 26, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> A Super Spreader may help.


are we playing this again?


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 26, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> are we playing this again?


Isn't the answer always _always_?


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## mellokitty (Mar 26, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Isn't the answer always _always_?


be careful when using the word "spreader" and the word "always" too close to each other, especially when kitty's in earshot...


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## d6520 (Mar 26, 2011)

This is my bong. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My bong is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. My bong, without me, is useless. Without my bong, I am useless..... lol lmao​


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 26, 2011)

d6520 said:


> This is my bong. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My bong is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. My bong, without me, is useless. Without my bong, I am useless..... lol lmao​


ok private d6520 where you hide the donuts!!


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## collective gardener (Mar 26, 2011)

One penetration comment really warrants 11 posts? Damn, gang...I know it's been a couple days since I posted pics, but did we really need to go here? BTW, I am running 2 Adjusts a Wings now and the super spreader isn't necessary. Even without it, the light is much brighter below the perimeter of the reflector, as oposed to directly under the bulb. That's the beauty of these great reflectors. We place the plants we really want to cook directly under the perimeter.


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 26, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> One penetration comment really warrants 11 posts? Damn, gang...I know it's been a couple days since I posted pics, but did we really need to go here? BTW, I am running 2 Adjusts a Wings now and the super spreader isn't necessary. Even without it, the light is much brighter below the perimeter of the reflector, as oposed to directly under the bulb. That's the beauty of these great reflectors. We place the plants we really want to cook directly under the perimeter.


Sorry man, I'm a bit immature at times.


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## collective gardener (Mar 26, 2011)

tremend00oo said:


> hey collective gardener ... how big is the enitre warehouse? and did you have to disclose what your operation was going to be when leasing it? did they ask for special requirement ?


Warehouse is about 1500 sq ft. Whether you disclose or not is up to you. There are grows in our complex that have disclosed and there are simple requirements that every legal collective has anyway. We chose not to disclose on this op. If we are asked we won't lie, as we have all the paperwork, insurance, etc...


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 26, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> One penetration comment really warrants 11 posts? Damn, gang...I know it's been a couple days since I posted pics, but did we really need to go here? BTW, I am running 2 Adjusts a Wings now and the super spreader isn't necessary. Even without it, the light is much brighter below the perimeter of the reflector, as oposed to directly under the bulb. That's the beauty of these great reflectors. We place the plants we really want to cook directly under the perimeter.


here some pics for you collective left 2 are a local strain and far right is orange kush


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## collective gardener (Mar 26, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> View attachment 1516065View attachment 1516063View attachment 1516062
> 
> here some pics for you collective left 2 are a local strain and far right is orange kush


Nice pics. That middle "local strain" is quite the cola! I miss growing those big bastards.


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 26, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Nice pics. That middle "local strain" is quite the cola! I miss growing those big bastards.


thanks! the local strain grow huge the bud was almost a foot 1/2 long but i cut it down for easyer drying. but the orange kush thats
the tasty one, got a grape smell


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## collective gardener (Mar 27, 2011)

We constructed the Rubermaid drying shack yesterday. It's basically a 4 x 8 x 7 feet tall plastic tool shed. We pulled tight wires across it for drying lines. I installed a 6" carbon filter and a 6" inline fan on a speed control for the exhaust. We also put a dehunidifier inside. The exhaust fan is set on a very slow speed...just enough to ensure slight negative air pressure inside. This controls any odor from leaving the shed since it's placed in the main warehouse section. The humidity is set at 60% right now and will stay there for the first 3 days. I like to stay as humid and cool as possible for the first 3 days to actually keep the plant tissue "alive". We keep it right on the edge of mildew and mold. I have found that this is the key to getting rid of all grass clipping smells. A wet towel is hung up with the plants if the outside air becomes too dry. The humidifier can then keep the RH just where we want it. 

After a few days, the humidity will be dropped to 50%. We deviated a little from my standard drying/curing method on this grow. I usually only remove the large leaves at harvest...leaves with no crystals. Leaves with crystals stay on the plant until totally dry and cured a week. This time, we tried to do the final trim right off the bat. I' have done this before as have most people. I believe it's the most popular method. I prefer to leave some leaves on to better control the dry and protect the buds, but a friend convinced me to do it the old way. His view is #1 It's easier (which it clearly is) #2 When you final trim on dry buds, trichomes are lost and damaged. By doing the final trim right off the bat, there is less handling of the dry buds, which, we all know, is a good thing. 

Once the stems _almost_ snap, we remove the buds from the stems and go into boxes for the burping. I have to say that a regular old cardboard box works very well for this. At least it does for the first part. When it comes down to the last few burps, plastic or glass becomes necessary to better seal the buds between burps. Paper bags and cardboard boxes reduce the chances of mold and mildew greatly.

Anyways, I've got a plant or 2 with around 40 -50% cloudy trichomes. They are coming out today. I harvested one small one 2 days ago. I'll have pics tonight.


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (Mar 27, 2011)

CG - What Humidity do you maintain in the Jars curing?

If I recall you don't do a Long (Months) cure, do to the nature of the collective. Do you harvest and dry different based on your short cure?


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 27, 2011)

That is absolutely how I would be drying a large harvest... controlled smell, controlled air movement, controlled humidity and darkness 
I'm absolutely loving it.


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> We constructed the Rubermaid drying shack yesterday. It's basically a 4 x 8 x 7 feet tall plastic tool shed. We pulled tight wires across it for drying lines. I installed a 6" carbon filter and a 6" inline fan on a speed control for the exhaust. We also put a dehunidifier inside. The exhaust fan is set on a very slow speed...just enough to ensure slight negative air pressure inside. This controls any odor from leaving the shed since it's placed in the main warehouse section. The humidity is set at 60% right now and will stay there for the first 3 days. I like to stay as humid and cool as possible for the first 3 days to actually keep the plant tissue "alive". We keep it right on the edge of mildew and mold. I have found that this is the key to getting rid of all grass clipping smells. A wet towel is hung up with the plants if the outside air becomes too dry. The humidifier can then keep the RH just where we want it.
> 
> After a few days, the humidity will be dropped to 50%. We deviated a little from my standard drying/curing method on this grow. I usually only remove the large leaves at harvest...leaves with no crystals. Leaves with crystals stay on the plant until totally dry and cured a week. This time, we tried to do the final trim right off the bat. I' have done this before as have most people. I believe it's the most popular method. I prefer to leave some leaves on to better control the dry and protect the buds, but a friend convinced me to do it the old way. His view is #1 It's easier (which it clearly is) #2 When you final trim on dry buds, trichomes are lost and damaged. By doing the final trim right off the bat, there is less handling of the dry buds, which, we all know, is a good thing.
> 
> ...


This is the method I typically use for exactly the same reason as your friend, less trichome damage. I've got a Trim Reaper sitting in my garage that I won't use for that same reason too...


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## collective gardener (Mar 27, 2011)

Here's some random pics:

These 2 pics are 6 week bubbas in 10 gallon pots. The bud size and overall plant size of the 10 gallon plants are quite a bit larger than the 5's. Of course the 10's were also vegged 2 weeks longer. We did have to thin these quite a bit due to excessive mid plant growth. Without thinning they would have yielded abunch of nice tops, but the product would have stopped about 10" into the canopy. By trimming most large fan leaves and some smaller shoots, we were able to get good solid nugs 24" deep into the canopy. 



These are the bubbas ready for harvest. I cut down one to have an early sample for our patients. The extra few days made a big difference on the yield on the remaining 10. The trichs are around 40% cloudy. As soon as we see 50% they will come down. We're at 7 weeks right now. There's not 1 amber trich to be found so I'm ok waiting a little longer. We'll either take them at 50% cloudy or at the first sign of amber. The plants have been flushed with pure RO for the last week and the leaves show it. The Cutting Edge nutes we use kept the leaves green right up to the flush. These plants were fed at 1000ppm. We've started feeding the 10 gallon pots at 1250ppm due to some light green leaves. I am not a fan of pushing the plants with nutes. I know many like to see some claw to know that they are maxing out the nutes. I've found that when this is done, the flush needs to be 2 or more weeks. I would rather get steady growth and a 1 week flush. 








Here's another pic of Godzilla in bloom. I've done no training on this bad ol' boy. We just wanted to see what it would do in the DWC bucket naturally. Well, the growth will all be up top. Not topping Bubba's is not a good idea if you're growing big plants. For some reason, it's taking quite a bit longer to show signs of flowers than the coco plants. Today, Helper D changed the water and gave it 1500ppm of some heavy bloom mix. He cut out almost all N in the hopes of giving her a little nudge into bloom. I may just put her in a dark room for 24 hrs if she can't get her shit together.



These 4 Lavander cross's are in our "overflow" bloom section. This is supposed to be a walkway. I just couldn't wait to get some more into bloom after seeing what the first test plant was doing. Once we do some harvesting and hang up the last 1000, we'll get em out of the walkway. I've accepted that there's just so much available bloom room. It's a sad truth. I'll use the 2 - 600 watt ballasts to power a couple free hanging vertical bare bulbs. We'll just move them around as side lighting along the edge of the plants. OR, I may suroud one with 4 or 5 small plants to see what that does. As you all know, I've been dying to try the vertical bare bulb thing. This, of course, will take place in the walkway again. Helper D is getting a little pissed off at me for crowding his working area. I had to promise him a couple of those plants for himself for the extra effort.



This is the new drying shack. Until we can settup an offsite drying room, this will have to due. It's a Rubbermaid garden shed. We drilled holes in the sides and pulled tight wires to hang branches on. I installed a 6" inline fan and carbon filter with a speed control to exhaust just enough air to keep slight negative pressure...eliminating odor leaks. There is a dehumidifier and a wet shirt hanging from a wire to make sure we can keep the humidity at 60% for these first few days. As new plants come in, we'll just have to settle on around 55% for the entire drying cycle. The bucket contains the sugar trim. After around a week on the wires, the buds get removed from the branch and go into carboard boxes. After 4-5 days in the boxes they'll go into plastic until we obtain 55% humidity inside the plastic container. We've found that 55% RH seems to be the sweet spot for long term storage. I'm not a fan of bags because the buds get smashed around too much. I like natural buds not compacted. Evertime I use bags they seem to get smashed a little. I know that many people like to compact their buds a little for bag appeal, but we like em natural, so the crystals can be seen deep into the bud.

BTW, the white thing above the dehumidifier is a sheet of plastic to deflect the breeze from the unit away from the hanging buds.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 27, 2011)

Ooo man I bet you can't wait to try some.... or have you?

I cut down 2 of my jack herers tonight n smoked 1 hit of scissor hash (just the resin and pistils stuck to the scissors) and got so ripped lol.

Those bubbas filled out a lot in the past few weeks, compared to how they were.


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## collective gardener (Mar 27, 2011)

I, too, have some scissor hash stuck to a hose clamp. We keep 8" hose clamps on the trim table. The nice sharp ede on the hose clamp scrapes the hash right off the scissors. Then you just wipe the next bit next to the last. After a day of trimming, we end up with 5 or 6 hose clamps covered in it. We just scrape it off with a razor and have a nice big pile! I love that shit, too!

I want one of those pollen tumblers for the sugar trim. Dry kief in a vaporizor is my favorite smoke. I'll take it over any other concentrate. My friend trimmed 14 lbs last week and tumbled out over 2 ozs of super clean kief. To smell the jar of that stuff is a piece of heaven.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 27, 2011)

Yeah I'm gonna get some bubble bags and make some ice hash. So have you tasted any of it yet?


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## Sr. Verde (Mar 28, 2011)

those are some fatt calyxes man... fat


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## collective gardener (Mar 28, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yeah I'm gonna get some bubble bags and make some ice hash. So have you tasted any of it yet?


Nope. We will taste no vine until its time. Flash drying is such a poor indicator of what the bud will be like when dried properly, I think it's a waste of time. We have plenty of head stash from our friends grows. I have also tasted this exact pheno several times grown by friends. Hell, I wouldn't have grown so much of it without having tried it. I am, however, looking very forward to trying ours. My buddies all grow under 600's. I've noticed that our buds, grown under 1000's, are much more swollen and dense than theirs are.

I like the idea of a pollen tumbler and one of those little washing machines. We could tumble some kief out, and then wash out the rest in ice water. I prefer kief, but hash has been known to make me very happy, as well.


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## collective gardener (Mar 28, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> those are some fatt calyxes man... fat


 
That's the difference between a 1000 and 600 watt lights. The 600's just don't quite plump up the buds as much.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 28, 2011)

Yea for me ill just save up keef in a grinder but ice hash is a real treat man my herer mother is only 3 wks 12/12 and I'm gonna get more off her than her 2 lil sisters. She's a fucking beaut stacking up so fat so fast. I'm so glaad I got a clone off her still. I had major clone losses. Def a keeper I'm gonna have for a long time.

Is ur buddy the only one whosze got laughganis?


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## collective gardener (Mar 28, 2011)

Why are you blooming out your JH mama? Are you done with that strain? You got any pice of the finished plant? Any budz shots? I'm a real fan of the Jack Herer Strain. This is totally my generation. JH won 1st place in the cup while I was just getting good at growing in the mid 90's. I flew to Holland to get some of those 1st seeeds. I came back with so many seeds, we didn't know what to plant. Of course, I got my JH. I also picked up NL#5, NL#5 X Skunk #1, and about 15 others of that generation. The NL#5 quickly became my favorite. The JH was great, but the buds grew all wormy in the end, hurting bag appeal. Maybe they have since fixed that. The NL#5, though, was the best thing since sliced bread. Oh, how we loved that girl.

After growing her for 6 months, my friend flew back to Holland and purchased 200 NL#5 seeds. Now we were looking for a "super" NL#5. Although the strain was stable for the time, we did get 3 plants out of 200 seeds that really out shined the rest. Those three plants became the mothers for myself and 4 other grows for the next 10 years. I have no idea how much weed was grown from those 3 Northern Lights girls. Maybe 1000 lbs? Anyways, one of those three phenos is still alive and producing cuts after 15+ years. My friends parents (in their 70's!) grow her in a small closet grow in northern Idaho. It's been their favorite bud since we gave it to them so many years ago. It's also been the only weed they have ever grown. Once a year I fly up to visit them and check on their grow. We smoke NL#5 that has been curing for months and months and play in the grow room. It's an amazing plant and still fun to watch grow and to smoke. While I am a huge Jack Herer fan, my heart will always belong to Northern Lights #5...possibly the best all around plant that has ever lived.


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## collective gardener (Mar 28, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yea for me ill just save up keef in a grinder but ice hash is a real treat man my herer mother is only 3 wks 12/12 and I'm gonna get more off her than her 2 lil sisters. She's a fucking beaut stacking up so fat so fast. I'm so glaad I got a clone off her still. I had major clone losses. Def a keeper I'm gonna have for a long time.
> 
> Is ur buddy the only one whosze got laughganis?


 
Sorry...got carried away with yesteryear. Basically, I am the only one now who has the Laughganis. The breeder and my buddy I got her from are growing different style crops that don't suit the Lavy well. This plant doesn't do well under 600 watt lights and needs to be constantly pruned. Their tables are more a "plant and forget" style, with very little access to the plants once the blooming has begun. Therefore, they've entrusted her to me for safe keeping. Our grow is based on total easy access to all of the plants throughout the grow. I also have Helper D to assist with canopy management. And, we use 1000 watt lights. 

If our first production crop with the Laughganis is a success, my buddy will be converting a portion of his large flip grow to these plants. I also need to find out how well they do with a 400 watt induction light. Like I say, a 600 watt light produces a nice plant, but nothing compared to the colas produced by a 1000. This is one of those plants that needs maximum light, maximum nutes, maximum pot size, and maximum pruning to get its full potential. If a person were to just throw one under a 400 or a 600 watt light, they would not be impressed and maybe stop growing it. I wonder how often this has happened to people. There are several strains out there that need that ultra bright light to really thrive. I know that 600's have their place...I really do...but for overall performance with a wide range of canopy shapes and sizes...nothing beats a room full of 1000 watt air cooled lights. 

On topic, I don't think I'll ever let one of these Laughganis leave the grow alive. It would have to be a very good friend, or someone in real need. They would also have to be far far away. I wouldn't want to see it showing up at the collective down the street. LOL


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## TheLastWood (Mar 28, 2011)

No I'm not done with the strain but my mother got about 3 ft tall and I had to flower her but I have clones of her. And 1 more beautiful jack that's lstd. I have a few pics but in the last week the cola has fattened so much that my pics are outdated.













As I said there outdated, in one week, and do no justic. Ill take more when I'm home. The bottom 1/3 of her is stripped for clones. Ill def be keeping her around


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## TheLastWood (Mar 28, 2011)

I wish I had a better cam she's already so frosty too. Ill take a good pic later n show you. She's very vigorous and hardy I've not had 1 problem with her even when I did with the others.


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## TheLastWood (Mar 28, 2011)

I wish I had a better cam she's already so frosty too. Ill take a good pic later n show you. She's very vigorous and hardy I've not had 1 problem with her even when I did with the others.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> why are you blooming out your jh mama? Are you done with that strain? You got any pice of the finished plant? Any budz shots? I'm a real fan of the jack herer strain. This is totally my generation. Jh won 1st place in the cup while i was just getting good at growing in the mid 90's. I flew to holland to get some of those 1st seeeds. I came back with so many seeds, we didn't know what to plant. Of course, i got my jh. I also picked up nl#5, nl#5 x skunk #1, and about 15 others of that generation. The nl#5 quickly became my favorite. The jh was great, but the buds grew all wormy in the end, hurting bag appeal. Maybe they have since fixed that. The nl#5, though, was the best thing since sliced bread. Oh, how we loved that girl.
> 
> After growing her for 6 months, my friend flew back to holland and purchased 200 nl#5 seeds. Now we were looking for a "super" nl#5. Although the strain was stable for the time, we did get 3 plants out of 200 seeds that really out shined the rest. Those three plants became the mothers for myself and 4 other grows for the next 10 years. I have no idea how much weed was grown from those 3 northern lights girls. Maybe 1000 lbs? Anyways, one of those three phenos is still alive and producing cuts after 15+ years. My friends parents (in their 70's!) grow her in a small closet grow in northern idaho. It's been their favorite bud since we gave it to them so many years ago. It's also been the only weed they have ever grown. Once a year i fly up to visit them and check on their grow. We smoke nl#5 that has been curing for months and months and play in the grow room. It's an amazing plant and still fun to watch grow and to smoke. While i am a huge jack herer fan, my heart will always belong to northern lights #5...possibly the best all around plant that has ever lived.


do you still have the nl#5?


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## collective gardener (Mar 28, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> do you still have the nl#5?


I have access to one. She's spending her days in Idaho. After a solid 10 years of pumping out cuts for several commercial grows, she's moved up north for the easy life. LOL. Kind of retired into a small head stash 400 watt garden. If I can teach my friends in Idaho to tissue culture (they're 70+ years old...fat chance), they could mail me one. I will be going up there end of summer. I may try and bring home a cut for old time sake. I can't help but miss that strain. I know that there's little market for her now. If people gave that plant a chance they may find it as good or better than many of the "med" strains floating around these days.

You are obviously an NL#5 fan? What is your history with that strain?


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## collective gardener (Mar 28, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> I wish I had a better cam she's already so frosty too. Ill take a good pic later n show you. She's very vigorous and hardy I've not had 1 problem with her even when I did with the others.


 
JH is a great strain. I grew her indoors and out...organic and hydro. She always did her job as good as any other. Those older strains seemed much more stable and hardy compared to the newer gear out there. Remember NL#5 x Skunk #1? Was that Sensi Skunk? Super Skunk? I just remember that thing throwing baseball size colas under HID's. Ah...the good ol days.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 28, 2011)

HUGE fan.(thats an under statement) Well I used to be your helper D to some one and thats all he grew. then shit happen got away from it all together and now Im back. But no one I " trust " has the original NL#5. Its just( in my eyes) the perfect plant. its all I smoked from the time I started till i stopped being a helper.(obviously i tried others but its was my number 1)


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## collective gardener (Mar 28, 2011)

Harvest Pics:

Helper D and Helper D2 trimming


Kinda like a corpse


Drying at last




Bubba buds may be small, but they are lovely



As you can see, the harvest is just in time. These Bubba plants are ready to move to the second veg area on the floor. The Lavander plants on the floor are moving into the bloom room. We still have lots of big Bubbas finishing blooming over the next few weeks.



I learn something on every grow. What I learned on this one is that the Bubba does better with a little less light in bloom. The plants that bloomed against the wall, and therefore recieved less light, had bigger buds and looked a little frostier. I took the light meter into the room and took readings next to the best looking finished buds. I then raised the lights to achieve that light strength in the center of canopy. This is a great problem to have. Raising the lights gives me a broader lit area. Originally, I made a judgement call on light strength. I knew that I wouldn't know for sure until harvest. Now, we need to see how the Lavs do with the raised lights. They seem to be a little more hardy. All in all, I'm very happy with the look of the buds. The amount of trichomes is very impressive. We blasted some scissor hash in the vaporizor and got plastered. We have a big ol ball of scissor has for tomorrow. I usually don't smoke during the day, but we're trimming, and smoking seems necessary.


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## collective gardener (Mar 28, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> HUGE fan.(thats an under statement) Well I used to be your helper D to some one and thats all he grew. then shit happen got away from it all together and now Im back. But no one I " trust " has the original NL#5. Its just( in my eyes) the perfect plant. its all I smoked from the time I started till i stopped being a helper.(obviously i tried others but its was my number 1)


I know exactly how you feel. When I visit my friends in Idaho that first bong hit of NL5 is like a visit from an old friend. I think the high is as powerful as anything out there today. It also has a great "up" quality without causing anxiety. I was specifically told by a commercial growing buddy not to grow anything with an NL flavor to it because the market is sick of it. I have a feeling if you got a killer NL pheno and called it "Moondust" or something else new and exiting, people would gobble it up.

I'll ask around and find out which seed bank has the best original NL's. Hopefully, someone has been continuing to refine it. Shit, now you got me wanting to put some in the grow. I may have to take an early trip to Idaho. I wonder if a cut could be sent overnight, strapped solid with a lightstick. Hmmmmmm....


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## TheLastWood (Mar 28, 2011)

Most def necessary n scissor hash is the bomb. Awesome pics. I'm so jealous.


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## mellokitty (Mar 28, 2011)

oh man, nl5 fans too? this thread just gets better and better.

i cut my teeth on reject clones from dr atomic's garden - nl5 x blueberry. really easy grow, beautiful bud, beautiful smoke, cerebral high, i miss it. now *that guy is working with some old school NL genetics. his collection is *HARDCORE*... if you get a chance, check out his "thai lights" variety.... flavour-wise, it compares the way thai basil is to sweet basil. insane cerebral high. omg i'm drooling right now.


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 28, 2011)

whats up with this kush thing all everybody wants is kush!! I call friend to smoke and there is it kush!! im like no and I get a wtf
yah I have orange kush and violator kush and bubba kush but my local old school strain smoke the kush. just think the kush thing
is over rated. and NL #5 is the shit!


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Mar 29, 2011)

The marijuana scene is more trendy than 13yr old girls.....if it doesn't have OG infront of the name, some say it's garbage...LOL


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## TheLastWood (Mar 29, 2011)

Plushberry is the only "kush" I'm gonna do and mostly cuz I want pink buds but the old school strains I grew up with are still my favs. There's so many names I never even heard of till I got on riu. I'm really not interested in any of the 5x hybrid strains. I totally get wanting to breed and make new strains its the natural progression from growing to breeding, I hope some day I know enough to do the same.


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## CallmeTex (Mar 29, 2011)

The first time I smoked Grandaddy Purple (6-7 years ago) it became my favorite, and now every time I find some its like a blast from the past. However, I don't get to smoke it often living in Texas. I'm moving to Colorado this friday, so hopefully I will be able to find a cut of it. 

That NL#5 sounds epic! Keep growing great meds Collective


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## collective gardener (Mar 29, 2011)

What if...just for shits and giggles...one were to cross a Kush with NL5, then back cross it a few times with NL5. It would have Kush in the name, but be mostly NL5. I'm thinking I need to find a good strong NL5 stud. I'd breed that little fucker with everything I can get my hands on. Thanks guys, as if I don't have enough on my plate. Now you all have me obsessing on getting some old NL going. I'm sure glad I'm not the only old grower to think it may be better than the new gear out there.


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## AndyK (Mar 29, 2011)

Don't even bother crossing it. Just put it on the street named Aurora Borealis and everyone will be none the wiser.


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## Mattysville (Mar 29, 2011)

I just watched an episode of Entourage where thier favorite strain Aurora Borealis went "Extinct" bringing back the best of the old school. I"m from the east coast where "kush" isn't the gold standard. Is it just me or can you call anything that is good a "kush" out in Cali and everyone is pumped because it's "kush" for a while here in the north east at least, all high grade was "haze" most of which probably didn't have a bit of actual Haze in it.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 29, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I know exactly how you feel. When I visit my friends in Idaho that first bong hit of NL5 is like a visit from an old friend. I think the high is as powerful as anything out there today. It also has a great "up" quality without causing anxiety. I was specifically told by a commercial growing buddy not to grow anything with an NL flavor to it because the market is sick of it. I have a feeling if you got a killer NL pheno and called it "Moondust" or something else new and exiting, people would gobble it up.
> 
> I'll ask around and find out which seed bank has the best original NL's. Hopefully, someone has been continuing to refine it. Shit, now you got me wanting to put some in the grow. I may have to take an early trip to Idaho. I wonder if a cut could be sent overnight, strapped solid with a lightstick. Hmmmmmm....


I would say yes a cut could be overnighted if night with a lightstick then one of those tap lights(HINT HINT GET IT GET IT GET IT)

and thanks for your idea about the hose clap never thought of the and have been sitting with razor blade in one hand scissors in other trying to scrape the two and not cut myself.


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## collective gardener (Mar 29, 2011)

AndyK said:


> Don't even bother crossing it. Just put it on the street named Aurora Borealis and everyone will be none the wiser.


It's sad to say that you're probably right. As obsessed as people are with nemes, I bet most of them couldn't match a name with a bud in a blind test. It's been so long since NL has been popular, many youngins would probably be trying it for the first time. I know that when I was growing it, no other weed made me as happy as the NL. I could have pounds of other strains, but when my NL bag was getting low I felt like I was running out of weed. 

Anyways, we've about beat this horse to death, unless someone has some more info like Kitty about a breeder who's working with it. It's safe to say, we all love it.

I'm sorry I haven't started the inductive light test yet. We've been trimming the past few days and it looks like we'll be trimming for a few more. Once we're done, I'll have Helper D set up a test station and pick out a couple plants for the test. I know alot of you are curious to see how this one goes. I know I am. If these things work as they claim, I may have found my new light source for blooming. For veg, we'll have to get some 400 watt inductives and test them against the Hortilux Daylight Blue Metal Halide. I don't have high hopes that the inductives are going to be able to keep the node spacing as tight. But, we'll see. Thanks for everyone's patience.


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## collective gardener (Mar 29, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> I would say yes a cut could be overnighted if night with a lightstick then one of those tap lights(HINT HINT GET IT GET IT GET IT)
> 
> and thanks for your idea about the hose clap never thought of the and have been sitting with razor blade in one hand scissors in other trying to scrape the two and not cut myself.


 
I'll see if my friends are up to packing one up for me.

Helper D took too big a vapor blast of the scissor hash tonight and was coughing and slinging drool for 5 minutes. It was so funny that I took a pic. I wish I could post it, but it shows his red face and watering eyes too good. I was damn near pissing myself laughing at him.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 31, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> A quick update:
> 
> We transplanted 6 plants that were in 5 gallon pots into 10 gallon pots. Theye were only in the 5's for 9 days yet the roots were packed in pretty tight. We're using a coco/perilite mix.
> View attachment 1433544
> ...


first and for most yes i know this is an old ass post but any way

so I need a new bulb as its been about 6 months since i replaced mine and i went to hydro store bought the one the guy recommended. which is a ULTRA SUN 1000w HPS (very cheap 62$) so then i figured look on here to see what other have said and then thought of your and see that your using the digilux but were Im at they dont carry them but will be in LA for memorial day so figured i could grab some there any ideas were i could do that? (maybe shouldnt be asking you but since your using them i figured what was the harm)


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## Beansly (Mar 31, 2011)

Mattysville said:


> I just watched an episode of Entourage where thier favorite strain Aurora Borealis went "Extinct" bringing back the best of the old school. I"m from the east coast where "kush" isn't the gold standard. Is it just me or can you call anything that is good a "kush" out in Cali and everyone is pumped because it's "kush" for a while here in the north east at least, all high grade was "haze" most of which probably didn't have a bit of actual Haze in it.


Aurora Borealis was a Brothers Grimm version of norther lights #5 the was discontinued when BG went out of business.


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## mellokitty (Mar 31, 2011)

well, you guys have me strain shopping so here is what i'm leaning towards so far: (just so's you can drool wif me....)
-pretty well anything by the aforementioned dr atomic (especially the atomic jam=atomic nl x blue and atomic haze=atomic nl x haze) - kind of a long haul right now but they do have some of his seeds at vsb
-soma's somango (you're gonna love this cg ->) jh x bks
-next gen's romulan or avalon
-(and maybe just for fun, and because it's one of my bestie' faves) .... wait for it..... durban poison. mmmmmmm.

i think at most i can afford 3 ten packs right now so even if i do get them it's *months before i finish them.... but i can taste *every one as i think about it. *literally drooling, omg*
which 3?


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 31, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> well, you guys have me strain shopping so here is what i'm leaning towards so far: (just so's you can drool wif me....)
> -pretty well anything by the aforementioned dr atomic (especially the atomic jam=atomic nl x blue and atomic haze=atomic nl x haze) - kind of a long haul right now but they do have some of his seeds at vsb
> -soma's somango (you're gonna love this cg ->) jh x bks
> -next gen's romulan or avalon
> ...


Have you ever tried Dutch Passion Power Plant? Not Pure Power Plant mind you. If you get a good pheno it is absolutely incredible, amazing yields, mongo frickin baseball bat colas and a flavor all its own (aniseed/pinesol/listerine) . I used to have a killer producing pheno but I lost it several years ago  Highly recommended. 

Damn, now that I think about it, I actually still have one seed left that I'd half forgotten about. Hmmm....


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## TheLastWood (Mar 31, 2011)

Wll I'm gonna say romulan. One of my alltime favorite strains. My next purchases won't be for a while (unless there's a promo that's too good to pass up) and mynext ones will be: cinderella99 and romulan.

I used to get bud from a hippy that's long gone now but I've nev er to this day had anything as good, and he is my inspiration as well as my 1st grow role model. The first time I ever did what D did (almost threw up) was my first time smoking real chronic, trainwreck, and my first time hitting a bubbler. Speant ten mins gagging over the sink.

And out of all the high end superbuds I ever got from him romulan, and snowcap romulan were the most reverred and enjoyed. He always had different amazing strains, now of which I'm sure he had grown many of them. Some he crossed and named himself, "elvis" was the one I remember most. And 007


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## collective gardener (Mar 31, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> first and for most yes i know this is an old ass post but any way
> 
> so I need a new bulb as its been about 6 months since i replaced mine and i went to hydro store bought the one the guy recommended. which is a ULTRA SUN 1000w HPS (very cheap 62$) so then i figured look on here to see what other have said and then thought of your and see that your using the digilux but were Im at they dont carry them but will be in LA for memorial day so figured i could grab some there any ideas were i could do that? (maybe shouldnt be asking you but since your using them i figured what was the harm)


The Digilux is brighter and should last longer with a digi ballast than a Horti bulb.

What was the purpose of all the quotes?


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## collective gardener (Mar 31, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> well, you guys have me strain shopping so here is what i'm leaning towards so far: (just so's you can drool wif me....)
> -pretty well anything by the aforementioned dr atomic (especially the atomic jam=atomic nl x blue and atomic haze=atomic nl x haze) - kind of a long haul right now but they do have some of his seeds at vsb
> -soma's somango (you're gonna love this cg ->) jh x bks
> -next gen's romulan or avalon
> ...


I just have to check out this Dr Atomic fella. Anyone workinbg with NL is my hero. NL x Haze? Well, depending on the Haze, could be epic. Yes, Kitty, Somango sounds great. My new mission is to check out Dr Atomic. See what his deal is. LOL


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 31, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I just have to check out this Dr Atomic fella. Anyone workinbg with NL is my hero. NL x Haze? Well, depending on the Haze, could be epic. Yes, Kitty, Somango sounds great. My new mission is to check out Dr Atomic. See what his deal is. LOL


He's legit, I'd for sure recommend the Atomic NL.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Mar 31, 2011)

I was just quoting when you wear talking about your HPS bulbs and the rest of the stuff came with it.


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## mellokitty (Mar 31, 2011)

yaaaayyyyy i finally figured out multiquoting~ (*kittydance*):



Wolverine97 said:


> Have you ever tried Dutch Passion Power Plant? Not Pure Power Plant mind you. If you get a good pheno it is absolutely incredible, amazing yields, mongo frickin baseball bat colas and a flavor all its own (aniseed/pinesol/listerine)


it rings a bell but i don't think i've ever "met" her... (or if i did i didn't get a chance to get acquainted...) 
i do want something with high pinene/pineol levels (the memory terpene) so that might be perfect. and dutch passion just also happens to be the home of durban poison.... i usually try to support the local breeders but durb is like my bestie' nl5 - she's from s. africa and the flavour takes her *home*... she's had a rough year and deserves just that sort of treat. and i am just the friend to capitalise on the fact that durb hasn't been popular here since the 90's  (or, for that matter, ever - sativas are a hard sell, commercial-strain-wise).



TheLastWood said:


> Wll I'm gonna say romulan. One of my alltime favorite strains. My next purchases won't be for a while (unless there's a promo that's too good to pass up) and mynext ones will be: cinderella99 and romulan.
> 
> I used to get bud from a hippy that's long gone now but I've nev er to this day had anything as good, and he is my inspiration as well as my 1st grow role model. The first time I ever did what D did (almost threw up) was my first time smoking real chronic, trainwreck, and my first time hitting a bubbler. Speant ten mins gagging over the sink.


lol, were we ALL inspired by some old hippy? mine taught me everything i know about strain id - before i'd ever touched a live cannabis plant. it was through him that i met some of the most amazing characters (well, some of them weren't what you'd call "amazing" in real life, they were just some nice, laidback stoner dood) (although some were pretty amazing) - i met romulan joe through him when he passed through town. it took me a period of days to realise who he was (i was still a youngpunk who didn't know jack, like the fact that 'romulan joe' is a household name among stoners), "hey old hippy buddy, why do you keep calling that guy "romulan"?... is he a big trekkie or something?" .... *facepalm* "DUUHH....."

between the two i'm leaning towards the avalon just because it's the less popular of the 2 (AND because the laughganis are making me want an afghan strain again).... i have a 'thing' about paying top dollar for seeds of something that i know if i wait long enough and search wide enough i'll find as a nice clone (like good ol rommie ).
the first time i almost puked from coughing on smoke was "champagne" (a hashplant double backcross i think).... i think it was just underflushed though: champ is about as commercial as it gets here, AND, flavour-wise, it's not a particularly good memory for me. it was that "choke you right at the back of your mouth" tingly feeling, which, in retrospect, was my eye-opener to 'clean' growing...



collective gardener said:


> I just have to check out this Dr Atomic fella. Anyone workinbg with NL is my hero. NL x Haze? Well, depending on the Haze, could be epic. Yes, Kitty, Somango sounds great. My new mission is to check out Dr Atomic. See what his deal is. LOL


dr atomic is friggin amazing (one of MY heroes for sure). he's older'n the dirt he grows in, and travels the world seeking 'new' strains. and by 'world' i don't mean he goes on an annual seed-buying trip to europe, i mean afghanistan, myanmar, thailand, places like that. dude has friggin nepalese temple balls in his collection. the aforementioned 'thai lights' is apparently 'something he picked up in thailand' crossed with atomic nl. he uses the word "cerebral" in conversation more than anybody i know. and SUCH a sweet dude to boot.

he wrote a schpiel for c/c a few years ago (but he covers his travels from the 60's on... let's see if i can find it...) there:
http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/4762.html




Wolverine97 said:


> He's legit, I'd for sure recommend the Atomic NL.


***DROOOOLIIIINNNGGG*** --'nuff said


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 31, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> yaaaayyyyy i finally figured out multiquoting~ (*kittydance*):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Durban and Power Plant both hail from the same general area in S. Africa, and I like Durban for sure but PP is a very similar electric type of high and kills the durban in the yield dept. I would assume their genetic backgrounds are similar since they come from the same general area, but I could be wrong about that. I have heard/read people complaining that DP's version of durban is nothing like the original, but sadly, it's the only one I've tried.


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## mellokitty (Mar 31, 2011)

well, shit. neither of the DP-carrying seedbanks i support has PP in stock right now (one of them has durb tho.)
shit shit shit i've just realised i can't remember if it was sensi's "durban" or dp's "durban poison" that she preferred.... (she used to work with seeds so she's as much of a strainwhore as i am) -- similar traits/timing/yields... $60 price difference. hmm.

it has certainly come down in price (LOTS of stuff has come down in price - i remember when jh seeds were close to $400), let's hear it for a healthy competitive market! (i know i know there are all sorts of pitfalls to the current canna seed market structure as well but none of them stacks up compared to that dirty M word - monopoly)


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 31, 2011)

Sorry chica, can't help you with that. I haz one seed left and it is MINE I SAY! Though I may have to crack it now (if it's still good, it's been several years), I've also got a small assortment of Jamaican strains that I got at a ganja plantation a few years back that have been calling me lately. Purple skunk (delicious), lambsbreath (nuf said) and an unknown sativa that grew very long fat uber stinky colas. Didn't get a name for that one other than "one tree herb". I need to make some space...


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## incognegro999 (Mar 31, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> yaaaayyyyy i finally figured out multiquoting~ (*kittydance*)


PPPLLLLZZZ share haha I have been dying to know this. I will forever kneel at the kitty altar = )


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## mellokitty (Mar 31, 2011)

you click the multiquote button (the quotation marks with the +) on all the posts you want to quote and then hit reply with quote on the last one.

i blinked at the screen like, "really? it's that easy?"

cg, it says a lot about the atmosphere of your thread that kitty the luddite is comfortable enough to be like, "i wonder what happens if i try [this].... *click click*"


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## incognegro999 (Mar 31, 2011)

you have found the holy grail of RIU and I am forever grateful


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## collective gardener (Mar 31, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Sorry chica, can't help you with that. I haz one seed left and it is MINE I SAY! Though I may have to crack it now (if it's still good, it's been several years), I've also got a small assortment of Jamaican strains that I got at a ganja plantation a few years back that have been calling me lately. Purple skunk (delicious), lambsbreath (nuf said) and an unknown sativa that grew very long fat uber stinky colas. Didn't get a name for that one other than "one tree herb". I need to make some space...


I too have the "unknown sativa". She's my headstash, and has been for a dozen years. When I took a break from growing a friend kept her alive and still complains to me. She takes about 6 years to finish, stays under 6 feet if you flower her right out of the clone dome, and every single branch needs support in late bloom. I real treat to grow. BUT, OMG...the high is like nothing I've ever experienced. Did I mention it has zero bag appeal?

Kitty, we too experience lack of demand for sativas. It's slowly changing, though. I'm getting patient requests for more sativas. I need to try a few sativa rich crosses to see how they work for us. Helper D has a New York Diesel he's playing with. He did a great job stopping vertical growth with foilar applications of Bushmaster. He's the Bushmaster Master. I'll take a pic of the plant. He sprays with Bushmaster and feeds with clear water, the next day regular feeding, the next day he sprays with Bushmaster and feeds with clear water, the next regular feeding. He does this 4 times, total of 8 days. All vertical growth stops and the plants shows no stress at all. Anyways, seeing him do this has made me start thinking more about bringing is some sativas. Now that I know what he can do, I'm more willing to "paly with the sativa fire".

Kitty, thank you so much for the Dr Atomic info. I am not a seed buyer at all. When I do, I usually buy at least 50 of 1 strain. I just can't shake my old school approach to finding good mommies. I know I know...they're stable. I just don't buy it. Anyways, I'm going to give his gear a try. I'll let you all know what I get. We're going to grow them at a friends grow so we don't use up plant numbers highgrading. My buddy has so many plants that 50 more is a drop in the bucket.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 1, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I too have the "unknown sativa". She's my headstash, and has been for a dozen years. When I took a break from growing a friend kept her alive and still complains to me. She takes about 6 years to finish, stays under 6 feet if you flower her right out of the clone dome, and every single branch needs support in late bloom. I real treat to grow. BUT, OMG...the high is like nothing I've ever experienced. Did I mention it has zero bag appeal?
> 
> Kitty, we too experience lack of demand for sativas. It's slowly changing, though. I'm getting patient requests for more sativas. I need to try a few sativa rich crosses to see how they work for us. Helper D has a New York Diesel he's playing with. He did a great job stopping vertical growth with foilar applications of Bushmaster. He's the Bushmaster Master. I'll take a pic of the plant. He sprays with Bushmaster and feeds with clear water, the next day regular feeding, the next day he sprays with Bushmaster and feeds with clear water, the next regular feeding. He does this 4 times, total of 8 days. All vertical growth stops and the plants shows no stress at all. Anyways, seeing him do this has made me start thinking more about bringing is some sativas. Now that I know what he can do, I'm more willing to "paly with the sativa fire".
> 
> Kitty, thank you so much for the Dr Atomic info. I am not a seed buyer at all. When I do, I usually buy at least 50 of 1 strain. I just can't shake my old school approach to finding good mommies. I know I know...they're stable. I just don't buy it. Anyways, I'm going to give his gear a try. I'll let you all know what I get. We're going to grow them at a friends grow so we don't use up plant numbers highgrading. My buddy has so many plants that 50 more is a drop in the bucket.


Good stuff Collective, sorry for getting off topic again. I also recently acquired a very nice Super Silver Haze cut that I'm sure will command some attention round here in a few months...


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## Sr. Verde (Apr 1, 2011)

Collective, if you dont mind me asking - How does one cure bulk?

I mean sure drying is easy, but how do you get allll that into air tight containers... A shit tonne of jars...... big ass containers, something totally different  ?


Not to mention opening it, and sifting around the meds. 

This intrigues me 

ps: my tangerines are on day 16 smelling great


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## dlively11 (Apr 1, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> first and for most yes i know this is an old ass post but any way
> 
> so I need a new bulb as its been about 6 months since i replaced mine and i went to hydro store bought the one the guy recommended. which is a ULTRA SUN 1000w HPS (very cheap 62$) so then i figured look on here to see what other have said and then thought of your and see that your using the digilux but were Im at they dont carry them but will be in LA for memorial day so figured i could grab some there any ideas were i could do that? (maybe shouldnt be asking you but since your using them i figured what was the harm)


Get rid of that Ultra sun ASAP !! Junk bulbs. Check my thread with a comparison and see for yourself. I have 6 of them with 8 weeks of use on them sitting in boxes ever since.
Thread
https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/355137-think-your-bulb-doesnt-matter.html

Comparison picture , same strain, same room ONLY differnce was the bulbs. Plant on the right was an old hortilux too.


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## dlively11 (Apr 1, 2011)

BTW your setup is looking great ! Love the drying room !


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## TheLastWood (Apr 1, 2011)

Yeah even with stable strains, the more you get the better chance of finding a super freak. You can find a keeper in a 5 or 10 pack. But how many perfectly good skunk#1 did they go through before finding cheese? And I'm sure beautiful romulan plants were culled by the boatload when making them "indica size". 

Worse case scenario you end up with 20 nice females and a few beauts. do u buy fem?


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## mellokitty (Apr 1, 2011)

dr atomic doesn't do fem as far as i know.
whenever i manage to get my hands on a 'reject' from one of his experiments it ends up being my prized strain, so go figure. (like the atomic nl x blue i started on - best beginner weed *ever*)

you know, i just smoked a real nyc diesel for the first time in a long time about a week ago, and it's a pity it's not more popular. a few years ago it was *everywhere, it seemed.... i will never understand the market here. right at this moment there's probably enough b-grade in this province to fill our football stadium, easily 90% of it some sort of kush.

bushmaster hey? (heard the name tossed around, know nothing about it)... let me do some homework first, and then i'll be back with some questions ('cause that's how i roll, you know). sounds very exciting. officially got the greenlight from hubby to start seriously considering strains (gotta narrow it down to 3 ... *boo*). i want at least one of "those" sativas.

i'm not normally a seed buyer either, but it's just so damned impossible to get away from the infamous starts-with-K-strain. right now our options are, well, the 2 we have now, a budrot-susceptible commercial monstrosity they call "cherry" (i've also heard it's an HA strain but i can't remember where i heard that and have no idea if it's true, anyway it's C.R.A.Pee.) (not to be confused with "cherry bomb", which is great), or a really finicky (i think mom got stressed out as a seedling) pineapple chunk. and our og is getting a bit 'tired'. or i am of it. 
as far as stability, backcrossing, f1, blah blah blah, i don't buy it either. i think it's far-fetched to assume that you're going to get a generation of one pheno, no matter what your process is. that's sort of like me thinking if i choose 2 really good looking people and make them breed, and then make their children breed (i know i know people aren't plants but let me run with my analogy, k?), they're eventually going to have the same looking offspring every time, isn't it? i mean a) they're probably going to be good-looking, but nobody will know in *what *way they'll be that (maybe they'll have big eyes, or high cheekbones, or perfect teeth, or all 3); and b) there is the off-chance that they get the perfect combination of features that makes them kinda fugly. dr a told me that when he's working with a new strain he starts hundreds of seeds of it, himself; so i commend you your due diligence in your selection process.
i cannot even begin to tell you how excited i am to see what you come up with, and i'm probably never even going to see her in person! *sigh*

me, i'm probably gonna take a wee gamble and just get a 10/12 pack of each, whatever i choose. the beauty part of the local seed companies i like to support is that they know me and my product well enough that if i go to them with a complaint they know it's not some silly mistake on my part (or that if it *was my own damn fault, i know better than to bother complaining to them about it). and more than likely 2 of the 3 i choose will be locals.


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## collective gardener (Apr 1, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> Collective, if you dont mind me asking - How does one cure bulk?
> 
> I mean sure drying is easy, but how do you get allll that into air tight containers... A shit tonne of jars...... big ass containers, something totally different  ?
> 
> ...


After the hang dry, we strip the buds off the stems and place them in small rubbermaid storage totes. They're not quite air tight, which actually works for us. Instead of burping, I just open em up, stir em around and close it back up. This is just for a couple days. Then they go into turkey bags which are airtight. Then, we open, stir, and smoke once per day. When the smoke seems right, we seal em up. I am amassing some glass jars for longer term storage. Much of it is gone though, as soon as it smoke tests ok.


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## collective gardener (Apr 1, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> dr atomic doesn't do fem as far as i know.
> whenever i manage to get my hands on a 'reject' from one of his experiments it ends up being my prized strain, so go figure. (like the atomic nl x blue i started on - best beginner weed *ever*)
> 
> you know, i just smoked a real nyc diesel for the first time in a long time about a week ago, and it's a pity it's not more popular. a few years ago it was *everywhere, it seemed.... i will never understand the market here. right at this moment there's probably enough b-grade in this province to fill our football stadium, easily 90% of it some sort of kush.
> ...


I don't know if we have the real NYC Diesel or not. It is the sole survivor of a batch of cuts we purchased from a dispensary, which I will never ever do again. 7 of 8 died...but not before unleashing thrips into my perfectly strerile brand new grow. Anyways, Helper D really wanted it, and he works hard. It is tough for anyone to put so much work into a grow that's not yours. I figure if he has a little piece for himself it will be more bearable.

Do your research on Bushmaster. There are some threads here on it. It's a heated topic. One thing that there is no argument on is that whatever it is, it really works to stop vertical growth for 7 to 10 days. Get back with me after you've looked at the ins and outs.

I like the Atomic Haze. I'll also be getting some of his NL#5 to see how close it is to what we grew "back in the day". Based on what I've been reading on Dr Atomic, his NL5 may even be better than what was available way back when. The thought of NL X Bad Ass Sativa is very exiting. I'm a little hesitant only because of the yield. He says low yield. We'll pick up a bag of seeds, grow them out, and if the yield is enough to grow it for patients, we'll get 50 or so seeds and find a winner. If the yield looks too low, we'll grow a plant or 2 for head stash. I wish I didn't have to be so concerned with commercial issues...but that's the life we've chosen. When I can grow purely for fun, I'll have 15 - 20 strains going at all times.

Good luck on your strain hunting. I can't wait to hear what you've chosen. Sounds like you're a glutten for punishment as well, wanting one of "those" sativas. LOL


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## rzza (Apr 1, 2011)

kitty you have grown dr atomics genetics? how bout the bbjam? you have pics of his stuff?


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## mellokitty (Apr 1, 2011)

i have grown some of dr a's genetics. i am intimately acquainted with a previous atomic nl x dj short blue that he did, way back in the day. atomic jam is a different cross of the same breeds, i would imagine it would behave similarly though. beautiful piney weed, stupidly easy to grow, zero plucking (you just *rub* the effing thing and all the yellow leaves that are ready to come off, come off), pest resistant, omg omg. i cannot say enough good things about the blue x atomic nl that i had. my ex and i grew the crap out of it for 5 years, i would heartily recommend it to any level of grower. a noob would learn well off it, and a master would make it something beautiful.

i've grown thai lights as well, which was not as good a yielder, although it was this crazy sativa goodness. you know, one of "those". every time the doc pulls out a joint it's that. mmmmmmm. food for thought.....

unfortunately, i don't have any pictures because a) it was my very first strain *wipes a single tear*... that was even before mmj, so *none of it was legal, so only the 'pot photograpers' were taking potshots around that time. b) before digicams too; pretty much you wanted your own dark room.
both really pretty, with some red/purple on the upper leaves and buds as it finishes....(tbh ours looked more like the pic of atomic shiva at vancouver seed bank though).... which is actually a high contender right now too.....


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## rzza (Apr 1, 2011)

great, thanks for the detailed response. i really wanna try the jam. riu and the otthers have little to no info available on his genetics. thanks again.


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## mellokitty (Apr 1, 2011)

hey, no problem, i love the doc, AND his work. in bc, he's a bit of a celebrity, and i've had the good fortune of meeting him at cafes and through friends and whatnot. (i remember the first time my buddy brought me a zip of his post-seed weed....it was like ambrosia fell down from mt. olympus or something....)
gotta support the locals.


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## mellokitty (Apr 1, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> ...but not before unleashing thrips into my perfectly strerile brand new grow. Anyways, Helper D really wanted it, and he works hard. It is tough for anyone to put so much work into a grow that's not yours. I figure if he has a little piece for himself it will be more bearable.
> 
> Do your research on Bushmaster. There are some threads here on it. It's a heated topic. One thing that there is no argument on is that whatever it is, it really works to stop vertical growth for 7 to 10 days. Get back with me after you've looked at the ins and outs.
> 
> Sounds like you're a glutten for punishment as well, wanting one of "those" sativas. LOL


what did you do about your thrips? everybody and their dog has them here (we fight them from time to time too - i expect this next one might be "the bad one"....) but nobody really has a pesticide-free solution to them. we usually just knock them back with cold water spray to keep ourselves from getting *infested, but when there's not a lot of them they don't really seem to do much more than cosmetic damage that ends up in the shake bag anyway....
helper d is a lucky helper, and you, sir, are a prince among bosses. trust me, i've had some real *doozies* of bosses and prospective bosses (guys you can just smell the "i'm gonna fuck you over" on).

surprisingly enough, hubby has never heard of bushmaster either. but he *is intrigued. i see homework in my future.

you called it, i am more maso than sado (although i have been known to make grown men cry from time to time.... oops.), i love an ornery beeotch now and then. i have seen one of "those" sativas 8 months into flower and going strong.... i can't remember exactly *which sativa it was (this was a decade ago now, i was a youngun) but they had started harvesting tops off it at 12 weeks and just let it develop and cut some more off ad nauseum (when i saw it it had been being gradually harvested for about 5 months, + 12 weeks = 8 months). i *think, (!!!) 10 years later, *maybe i have the knowledge and wherewithal to do the same thing. the smoke was just ridiculous. peppery cedary gasoline. mmmmmmmmm lol


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## collective gardener (Apr 2, 2011)

On Thrips. Spinosad. Yes, Spinosad. The fucking thrip weapon of choice. It's a bacteria discovered in an old rum distillery. Works ok on mites, not much luck on aphids, bud deadly lethal on thrips. You can soak your plants in it lights on with no visual bad effect. You can dip the little ones. I have used it 7 days in a row with no ill effects. We were hoping not to have to use anything in this grow...hepa filters, clean room practices, and what not. But, the clone killed us. My commercial growing buddy turned us on to it. He taught us to use it 2 days in a row...wait 4 days...then 2 more days in a row. I can highly recommend it.


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 2, 2011)

I to have been battleing thrips using marathon/azamax/azatrol and no luck they go away then
come back. so spinosad works? and where can you find it?


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## mellokitty (Apr 2, 2011)

dagnabbit.
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to collective gardener again."
thanks for the tip. yay more homework!


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## mellokitty (Apr 2, 2011)

*roflmao*
had to share this just for a lark: 
from wiki: "Spinosad is also the active ingredient in Comfortis[2], a chewable flea medication for pets." <-- last year, when we got infested with fleas i seriously considered taking some of this myself (i'm allergic to the buggers). had i known the active ingredient was a beneficial bacteria, i might have been more tempted to.


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## mellokitty (Apr 2, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> After the hang dry, we strip the buds off the stems and place them in small rubbermaid storage totes. They're not quite air tight, which actually works for us. Instead of burping, I just open em up, stir em around and close it back up. This is just for a couple days. Then they go into turkey bags which are airtight. Then, we open, stir, and smoke once per day. When the smoke seems right, we seal em up. I am amassing some glass jars for longer term storage. Much of it is gone though, as soon as it smoke tests ok.


ever tried zipzag bags? they're like ziplocs but they're made of a different polymer (i forget which one) - they're actually water/air tight, unlike ziplocs. we usually do our 'burping' in those.
(we use turkey bags for replacement bags for our vape tho....)

not much info out there on what goes into bushmaster (which is no surprise, proprietary info and all that jazz), but i've heard it referred to as a "cheaper dutch master superbud" a couple times (which i've never used but i guess hubby used to). personally hormone treatments kind of skeeve me out but then i'm a girl and the word "hormone" has a negative connotation already with us.... lol. .... more homework-ward ho!....

i met a fellow here yesterday who had questions about the legality of an incorporated collective with 99 plants in cali and of course i thought... "hmm.... why do these circs sound so familiar...?" so i shot him your link. he may come pick your brain. hopefully they don't become your competition..... 

yay, i just re-hooked back up with my "used to work for kind seed bank" hookup.... employee discount wut-wu~t~.... speaking of which, i don't know where you were looking at the doc's strains but they have one at kind seed they don't have at vsb - nepal baba, which i had all but forgotten about. now *she is one of *those* girls (the kind that go behind the 7/11 with the older boys, you know )...... the narrowing down to 3 train rolls on.... (although i *hinted that it might become 4 and he didn't exactly bite my head off so we shall see.... worst case scenario the conversation will go: "you know you wanted it just as much as i did." ... "yeah, you're right, i did.") lol.


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## collective gardener (Apr 2, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> I to have been battleing thrips using marathon/azamax/azatrol and no luck they go away then
> come back. so spinosad works? and where can you find it?


Monterey Garden Sprays have a couple products that contain Spinosad. After a heavy application by the notorious Helper D yesterday, I inspected 10 leaves under the scope and saw only larvae...no adults. Prior to the spray I could count on seeing 2-4 on each blemished leaf. He hit them again today and then we'll wait 4 days for 2 more hits. Typically, that wipes em out. One day someone is going to drive a truck through one of these infested clone stores. Why did I think it would be any different this time.


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## mellokitty (Apr 2, 2011)

we've narrowed it down to a blue-heavy selection:
-next gen's 'avalon' 
-dr. a's jam
-durban poison (<3 my *those* sativa <3)
-(*ssshh don't tell hubby) cash crop ken's rene x nuken (surprise!)
^i found this in the catalogue last night, and it replaced nepal baba as #4, mainly because to a bc-ite, a rene cross seed is like an historical anomaly -- you just can't pass it up. imagine being a comic book guy and coming across, oh i don't know, if spiderman and wonder woman mated and produced a few thousand viable eggs and they were for sale..... lol (that and i don't see nepal baba selling out between now and the next crop, but i'd kick myself if rene did)
i'll put baba to bed next crop. 
we have seen a LOT more of those friends with the bigger plant allowance, these days, and it's only going to increase.... i hope they don't get sick of us.....

the 3 from kindseed, one from vsb, and, to make it fair, i ordered most of my vegetable seeds (close to $100 worth) from vsb as well. gotta support the friendlies.


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## collective gardener (Apr 3, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> we've narrowed it down to a blue-heavy selection:
> -next gen's 'avalon'
> -dr. a's jam
> -durban poison (<3 my *those* sativa <3)
> ...


This just shows me how strain ignorant I've become. Besides the Durban, I have no idea what strains you're talking about LOL. Who the hell nis Rene? Does she like to party? I knew a Rene once and she was kind of a slut. Is this Rene blonde...kind of short?
Kitty...please take a second and tell me about these strains. Tnks.

I've been looking for a C-99 for the grow op. Also thinking about a cheese.


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## TheLastWood (Apr 3, 2011)

Cg my next will be romulan from next gen and cinderella 99. The c99 I want is from mosca seeds, there on attitude, and its a c99 bx. I want it so bad. I also just got some confidential cheese ( la confidential x exodus cheese) which I'm waitin till the plushb errys are done. Its getting so hot already I may have to switch my day cycle to nighttime or the heat will be detrimental.

Gardener, do you know a good way to change my light cycle to nighttime without stessing them out? Should I just give my veg plants exra daytime and my flowsering extra night time ?


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## rzza (Apr 3, 2011)

when i switched mine i simply changed it 30 minutes a night till it was where i wanted it. i thought of that being less stressful than all at once.


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## mellokitty (Apr 3, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> This just shows me how strain ignorant I've become. Besides the Durban, I have no idea what strains you're talking about LOL. Who the hell nis Rene? Does she like to party? I knew a Rene once and she was kind of a slut. Is this Rene blonde...kind of short?
> Kitty...please take a second and tell me about these strains. Tnks.
> 
> I've been looking for a C-99 for the grow op. Also thinking about a cheese.


hey, when i first showed up on pot forums, it was like a whole different *language.... some of this stuff is culled from my "i used to be a strainwhore a decade ago" memory  of course, we have a whole different "language of strain names" up here than cali does, i'm sure....
avalon = blueberry x afghani (cute, fast and pointy but with berries)
jam = nl blue (hi, have we met? lol)
durban is durban 
and rene.... rene is a bit of a legend. the most convincing story i've heard is that it was bred in quebec by some frenchman named rene, who named it after himself.... 
it's one of those clone-only local legends (think timewarp.... oooo m fg that takes me baaaaack), and oh, yes, she likes to party alright. before the club, at the club, behind the club, and after the club. rene is an insatiable coug who never lets you down as long as you're good to her, peppery wildflowers. and apparently this is a rene mom -- very exciting. (i'm not familiar w cck but i've heard good things and no bad things, which is a huge indication in the breederverse, to me anyway).

vindictakitty is also a bit on the prowl, because i have never gotten to grow rene because my *one connect who knew people who grew it refused to get me a clone for 'proprietal reasons' oh so long ago now, as if my growing a few plants of it for personal was going to cut anybody's grass..... he was a middleman then but now he grows so i know he's going to be kissing up to me for it once he finds out i have it. my evil streak tells me i should just wait until i get a crop off and drop an unexpected teaser joint on him..... i'll make him *agree to paying an exhorbitant price for a five pack of clones or something and then *give it to him just to make myself feel extra-magnanimous..... lol


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## collective gardener (Apr 3, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Cg my next will be romulan from next gen and cinderella 99. The c99 I want is from mosca seeds, there on attitude, and its a c99 bx. I want it so bad. I also just got some confidential cheese ( la confidential x exodus cheese) which I'm waitin till the plushb errys are done. Its getting so hot already I may have to switch my day cycle to nighttime or the heat will be detrimental.
> 
> Gardener, do you know a good way to change my light cycle to nighttime without stessing them out? Should I just give my veg plants exra daytime and my flowsering extra night time ?


I'm in the process of doing that right now in my bloom room. This last heat wave about scared the hell out of me...approched 90F! I just advance the timer 1 hr every day. This gives them 11 hrs light/13 hrs dark. 30 mins is probably better, but I need a 12 hr change and can't risk another heat wave. As far as the veg room, I just turn the lights on for a min of 24 hrs, then reset the timer to the new schedule. I've done this before with no probs. This may be because my clone flouros and my T-5's are on 24hrs anyways. So, there's always some light in the veg room.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 3, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I'm in the process of doing that right now in my bloom room. This last heat wave about scared the hell out of me...approched 90F! I just advance the timer 1 hr every day. This gives them 11 hrs light/13 hrs dark. 30 mins is probably better, but I need a 12 hr change and can't risk another heat wave. As far as the veg room, I just turn the lights on for a min of 24 hrs, then reset the timer to the new schedule. I've done this before with no probs. This may be because my clone flouros and my T-5's are on 24hrs anyways. So, there's always some light in the veg room.


Maybe I missed it earlier but, do you run co2? If so, just up your levels just over 1500-180ppm range and the plants will go nuts if you can keep up with the watering needs.


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## TheLastWood (Apr 3, 2011)

Yeah I don't know what I'm gonna do. I ordered some ceramic metal halide lamps today. been wanting to switch anyways but am doing it now cuz there supposedly much much cooler. I'm thinking if I give veg 24 hrs then switch there timer like you said, but for flower just leave dark an extra 11 hrs then start from there? So basically leave flower in dark and veg in light for 11 hrs then go off new time. Will that be ok?


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## collective gardener (Apr 4, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yeah I don't know what I'm gonna do. I ordered some ceramic metal halide lamps today. been wanting to switch anyways but am doing it now cuz there supposedly much much cooler. I'm thinking if I give veg 24 hrs then switch there timer like you said, but for flower just leave dark an extra 11 hrs then start from there? So basically leave flower in dark and veg in light for 11 hrs then go off new time. Will that be ok?


NO...For bloom advance the "current time" setting on the timer 1hr every day during the lights on period. Keep doing this every day until the lights are coming on when you want them to. What this does is puts the bloom room onto an 11 on/12 off schedule. Since 11+12=23 every day the lights will turn off 1 hr earlier and stay off for 12 hours. Do you see? The only effect may be the plants finishing a day or so earlier. This technique works well because the plants continue to recieve 12 hrs darkness each day. As we know, it is the dark period that generates the flowering hormone.

On a side note, I have tried blooming plants using a 6 on/12 off lighting schedule. The net effect is smaller plants that finish 30% sooner. A 60 day plant will be done in 40 days. However, the plants are about 40% smaller. Obviously the shorter bloom duration is not worth it due to loss of yield exceeding shortening of time. BUT, when I used to highgrade alot, and was testing 100's of seeds, I had a small extra bloom room set up on this 6 on/12 off schedule. I could then see the results of each seed 20 days sooner! While highgrading I was not interested in obtaining maximum yield from each harvest. My only yield considerations were how much one seed yielded compared to another. Since they were all on the reduced daytime schedule, I could determine this. Using this method is a great way to find that "special lady" considerably faster than the traditional 12/12 bloom schedule. This technique was taught to me by an old So Cal commercial grower, who, after choosing to grow a new strain, would plant 100+ seeds, take 3 cuttings from every plant, and throw the original plant away. After the cuts were rooted well he would bloom one cut and save one cut in veg (the 3rd cut was in case of clone death). This Old Boy would cure and smoke EVERY ONE of those hundred plants to find the one with the best quality. He would then compare quality with yield to determine which one or 2 cuts in the veg stage were to be his new mothers. This demands much commitment. But, he was the most successful (read rich...LOL) commercial grower I have ever known. Today he spends his time relaxing is his not-so-humble home in Belize. 

Damn...where was I? Oh, yes...timer changes: 

For the Veg., it's not as important. Just turn the lights on and let them run for 24 hrs, then set the timer for the new schedule. An altermate method is to keep the lights on through the original night period, when you get to the new lights off time, set the timer for the new time and go back on the timer. Either way will not affect the plants. I have done them both


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## collective gardener (Apr 4, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Maybe I missed it earlier but, do you run co2? If so, just up your levels just over 1500-180ppm range and the plants will go nuts if you can keep up with the watering needs.


No CO2 until I install a new ductless spli air conditioner and seal the room. We were planning on doing this originaly, but the plants came early and we had to just get em going with what we had. We'll put in the 4 ton ductless system in a couple months. With that kind of cooling power, I can seal the room up tight and add CO2. I've, by far, had the best results with CO2 in a sealed room. It's really the only way to go. Kind of ironic that when I start adding CO2, I'll have ample cooling power...yet will be running higher temps because of the CO2.


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 4, 2011)

there is no real way to seal up my setup but want to add co2 but with air moving out of the room will there be any bennys from runing it?


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## collective gardener (Apr 4, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> there is no real way to seal up my setup but want to add co2 but with air moving out of the room will there be any bennys from runing it?


If you can maintain your CO2 level you will see results. The problem is, plants get addicted to high levels of CO2. When they get used to say 1000ppm, if the levels drop to 300ppm, growth can actually stop. Personally, I will never run CO2 in a non sealed room again. If you have a small tent grow, you can probably do it. But, if you are moving alot of air, forget it. Why cant you seal the room?


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 4, 2011)

cant afford the large AC unit and my hobbie aint large enough justify geting one, plus to control hum im moving alot of air through a scrubber.
thanks for the heads up on the co2 sounds like its going to do more harm than good.


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## MoJobud (Apr 4, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> No CO2 until I install a new ductless spli air conditioner and seal the room. We were planning on doing this originaly, but the plants came early and we had to just get em going with what we had. We'll put in the 4 ton ductless system in a couple months. With that kind of cooling power, I can seal the room up tight and add CO2. I've, by far, had the best results with CO2 in a sealed room. It's really the only way to go. Kind of ironic that when I start adding CO2, I'll have ample cooling power...yet will be running higher temps because of the CO2.


How high of a temp do you feel comfortable running with co2?


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 4, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> If you can maintain your CO2 level you will see results. The problem is, plants get addicted to high levels of CO2. When they get used to say 1000ppm, if the levels drop to 300ppm, growth can actually stop. Personally, I will never run CO2 in a non sealed room again. If you have a small tent grow, you can probably do it. But, if you are moving alot of air, forget it. Why cant you seal the room?


Bingo. Though I've read that the true dependence doesn't take effect unless you're running around 1500 ppm and then drop to below 800. I keep mine running around 1000ppm through most of flowering, then gradually reduce the final three weeks so I don't inhibit ethylene production. It works well, and if I ever slip and let my tank go empty without filling the backup my plants still grow without the added co2.


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## norcali (Apr 4, 2011)

im bout to buy another co2 generator and put it in my greenhouse this year


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## NorthernLights#5 (Apr 4, 2011)

ok so over the past few days Ive seen many posts about lighting change, What I wanna know is why? I mean i run them from seed/clone 24 on for 2 weeks, then to 16/8 for veg, and straight to 12/12. I guess Im asking am I doing something wrong there? It does work with good results.


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## TheLastWood (Apr 4, 2011)

Talkin about switchin lights on to pm and off during the hottest part of the day.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Apr 4, 2011)

oh ok thats why i was so lost, now it all makes sence. And I really like that Idea. thanks


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## collective gardener (Apr 5, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> ok so over the past few days Ive seen many posts about lighting change, What I wanna know is why? I mean i run them from seed/clone 24 on for 2 weeks, then to 16/8 for veg, and straight to 12/12. I guess Im asking am I doing something wrong there? It does work with good results.


Most folks veg 18/6 rather than 16/8. Studies have shown that there are diminishing returns after 18hrs of light each day.


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## theexpress (Apr 5, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Most folks veg 18/6 rather than 16/8. Studies have shown that there are diminishing returns after 18hrs of light each day.


really??? what studies have shown this??? care to link?


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## collective gardener (Apr 5, 2011)

It was a long wait...but so worth it. We've harvested 11 plants. The perpetual harvest has begun. The first 11 plants were is 5 gallon pots full of Sinshine #4. The next 20 or so plants are also in Sunshine #4, but in 10 gallon pots. They look to yield around double what the 5 gallon plants did. All plants after this first 30 are in pure coco, and will be in 10 gallon pots. We do have some small Laughganis in 5 gallons of coco, but they are only 18" tall. We could tell that the Bubbas in the 5 gallon pots were feeling their container. While they did get pretty big for an indoor Bubba, they were nowhere near the size of the 10 gallon plants. We may even try a couple 15-20 gallon containers to see what they do. 

Anyways, here's a pic of the yield off of 1 - 5 gallon plant. The branches had been hung for about 5 days. Then the buds were stripped and placed in this drawer. They stay in the drawer overnight, then go onto a screen tray overnight. At that point, they are ready for the burping.


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## herbdoctor420 (Apr 5, 2011)

this thread is awesome collective gardener..i have been looking and looking for one like this for awhile. im only at page 11 because there is so much useful information i stop and read some twice to take it all in and use it in my plans. i keep having questions but then they keep getting answered haha. so ill save them for when i finish =)


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## rosecitypapa (Apr 6, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> On a side note, I have tried blooming plants using a 6 on/12 off lighting schedule. The net effect is smaller plants that finish 30% sooner. A 60 day plant will be done in 40 days. However, the plants are about 40% smaller. Obviously the shorter bloom duration is not worth it due to loss of yield exceeding shortening of time. BUT, when I used to highgrade alot, and was testing 100's of seeds, I had a small extra bloom room set up on this 6 on/12 off schedule. I could then see the results of each seed 20 days sooner! While highgrading I was not interested in obtaining maximum yield from each harvest. My only yield considerations were how much one seed yielded compared to another. Since they were all on the reduced daytime schedule, I could determine this. Using this method is a great way to find that "special lady" considerably faster than the traditional 12/12 bloom schedule. This technique was taught to me by an old So Cal commercial grower, who, after choosing to grow a new strain, would plant 100+ seeds, take 3 cuttings from every plant, and throw the original plant away. After the cuts were rooted well he would bloom one cut and save one cut in veg (the 3rd cut was in case of clone death). This Old Boy would cure and smoke EVERY ONE of those hundred plants to find the one with the best quality. He would then compare quality with yield to determine which one or 2 cuts in the veg stage were to be his new mothers. This demands much commitment. But, he was the most successful (read rich...LOL) commercial grower I have ever known. Today he spends his time relaxing is his not-so-humble home in Belize.


Hey 'sup CG! Glad to see your grow coming along and for your first harvest out of that room. The NL discussion a couple of pages back really brought back some memories. 

Thanks for the above tip, since my aspirations are to breed, that info is indispensable. Also good job on keeping the good vibe going in this thread, props to all the contributors.


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## Sr. Verde (Apr 6, 2011)

dude... i open my drawers to socks...


you open your drawer to madd weed


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## collective gardener (Apr 7, 2011)

theexpress said:


> really??? what studies have shown this??? care to link?


LMAO! Too funny. Link. Sorry...this just cracks me up because I learned this before the web was a thing. I have no idea where I read it. Probably one of Ed's books circa late 80's early 90's. 

Seriously, though, I have noticed it myself...especially with larger plants. The smaller plants seem to grow with every hour of light given to them. However, I don't see a huge difference with my larger plants between 24 and 18 hrs of light. I run my clones flouros and T-5's 24 hrs on. The T-5's cover plants that have just rooted for about the first 10 days of veg. If I were to run them 18 on, I would see a marked slow down in growth.


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## TheLastWood (Apr 7, 2011)

Yeah clones n seedlings get 24 till they go under my hid. Little babies don't need sleep they just ned to concentrate on growin some fatty roots. But when there vegging and obviously when flowering, they need a sleepy time to perform certain functions that only happen in darkness. Mostly foliage growth and cell growth processes. Been looking into light a lot more lately (sparked by riddleme) and its simply amazing, one could spend there entire life learning about light and its effects and never learn it all. Mostly been looking into the red spectrum, infrared, far red, which are examples of some things that happen or signal "night time"


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## collective gardener (Apr 7, 2011)

Hate to change subject, BUT...I 'd like to hear what people are doing for spider mites. I have the spotted mite (thank god...the pure red mite is almost impossible to get rid of). They're in my bloom room, on plants about 4 weeks along. I am treating with Spinosad right now. I was using this for thrips, and it says good for mites, too. It worls wonders for thrips...I don't know about mites. I want to use 2 or 3 different products for a multi pronged attack. We'll bomb the veg room with Dr Doom, of course. All spider mite killing product info is welcome.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Apr 7, 2011)

I love azamax had an issue with mites once before from some clones I had gotton, You can spray infected area as well as add it to your watering once a week for three weeks and you should be A OK. I would also start hitting all your clones and vegging plants with it as a precaution. Ive also heard that if you put a random plant in the area were you have them and not treat it and treat the others that the mites will migrate to said random plant and then just take that plant out all together.


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## SCCA (Apr 7, 2011)

i use azamax (or azatrol) supplemented with a 2 stage pyrethrin bomb during veg, cant remember the brand right now. avoid Avid, the mites become immune in a few generations. over use of avid is what lead to the evoloution of the mendo mite. there are several mixing strengths on the label, i start with the mid range of the low strength and work up from there. use the strongest dose your plants can handle. generally i use the stronger mid range and it works great. much stronger than that and the leaves curl and twist a bit.


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## Stoner.Barbie (Apr 7, 2011)

vaccuume those fuckers off, just suck em right off and then use your spray. just a suggestion. seen a lot of peple do this.


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## mellokitty (Apr 7, 2011)

good ol' neem + peppermint dr. bronner's for preventative, pyrethrin-based pesties if we have to. if you can still find the original safer's endall, (not endall2, which is a different formulation, apparently, we found that out the hard way -- thanks safers ), it's quite effective.

also d. earth on soil surface and around pot rims to prevent spread (no leaf touching either!) for crawlers.

in other news, my bestie has bedbugs. do you think spinosad would be good against them?


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## Sr. Verde (Apr 7, 2011)

Oh no! Spider mites!

Give this a read through CG, loads of good info.

https://www.rollitup.org/bugs/335046-grizzlys-guide-pulverizing-pests.html


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 7, 2011)

I've had success with neem oil in the past (Einstein Oil!), but Azamax works beautifully, for me it even dried up the eggs that were on the leaf undersides. I rarely have issues with mites because I'm a fucking nazi about how I handle new clones coming into my area, I spray or dip every one and they're isolated for a week before introduced to the garden. I've heard very good things about Ed Rosenthal's new "Zero Tolerance" spray, and it's made from natural oils too. I hate bombs and No Pest strips, I just don't feel they should be used on consumables. 

I know you don't have co2 yet, but that's another option that leaves no residual but it only kills the live ones, not the eggs. Just raise your ambient levels over 4000ppm overnight and _anything _in there is going to die. Except the girls of course, they'll be fine.


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Apr 7, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> good ol' neem + peppermint dr. bronner's for preventative, pyrethrin-based pesties if we have to. if you can still find the original safer's endall, (not endall2, which is a different formulation, apparently, we found that out the hard way -- thanks safers ), it's quite effective.
> 
> also d. earth on soil surface and around pot rims to prevent spread (no leaf touching either!) for crawlers.
> 
> in other news, my bestie has bedbugs. do you think spinosad would be good against them?


Bedbugs????.....seriously????bedbugs????Thought they were bloodsuckers...not herbivores...LOL.....eeeewwwww....creepycrawly....their was an outbreak of bedbugs at hotels in my area a few months back....worst thing was I was working on the road staying in hotels.....talk about fkn itching all night long......I.....HATE.....BUGS!!!!!!


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## mellokitty (Apr 7, 2011)

oh yeah, they are bloodsuckers all right. no, i meant like she has them. in her apartment. apparently there's 'issues' all over the building.


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Apr 7, 2011)

ohhhh.....bestie.....though you said beastie...like beasters....lol....you are canadian right.....LOL


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## collective gardener (Apr 7, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> good ol' neem + peppermint dr. bronner's for preventative, pyrethrin-based pesties if we have to. if you can still find the original safer's endall, (not endall2, which is a different formulation, apparently, we found that out the hard way -- thanks safers ), it's quite effective.
> 
> also d. earth on soil surface and around pot rims to prevent spread (no leaf touching either!) for crawlers.
> 
> in other news, my bestie has bedbugs. do you think spinosad would be good against them?


Right now, we're leaning on the Spinosad. It has halted the infestation from increasing, and we hope continued applications will knock em out. I have had horrible results applying Pyrethrin on any plants 3 weeks or more into bloom....drastic yield reduction. I actually used pyrethrin for most of my career on these problems. Since I was spraying the entire room, I didn't really notice the yield reduction too much....until I was running a flip settup. I got bugs in one room and not the other. The room I sprayed yielded 20% less than the unsprayed room. Since then, I've been afraid of it in bloom. What about azamax on blooming plants?

For right now, we're going to keep blasting them with the Spinosad. One application wiped out the thrips. My buddy who told me about it says it takes several applications to get rid of mites, but that it will work. Once we get these under control, I'm going to be using the spinosad every 2-3 weeks as a preventative. The stuff just doesn't seem to affect the plants at all. We're setting off a Doctor Doom Bomb in the veg room tomorrow to prevent anything in there.

Thanks to all for the info. If the Spinosad does not wipe them out, I'll be using either the azomax or the avid, depending on what you all tell me about application in mid bloom.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Apr 7, 2011)

Ive done it once half way through flower and but I cant say for sure that it affects yield as I did not regrow that strain. What i can say is that the smoke still came out fine good taste and look and smell. something else to try is separate the affected plants and give them a good bath in just cold water< yes i know this does not kill them or prevent them> as it has worked for me in the past, it does get them off the plant


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## dudeface (Apr 8, 2011)

Love this thread, thank you so much to the well informed that add info and correct the wrong info out there. Mello I do a very similar thing to all my plants. I spray them with an OMRI certified Pest-out (it's cottonseed oil and a few other seed oils) then with water. I then neem them (at like 1/10th strength) in veg and the beginning of flower for ALL of my plants. I spray them a couple times throughout flower again with the pest-out (stopping at week 5) and I have never had an outbreak of anything thus far. Moisture/airflow plus just an ounce of prevention has allowed me to never have an outbreak thus far of anything.

I have used azamax a couple times as well at about 1/10th the dose in veg...

Just my .02 for prevention. i give all my babies a full month of nothing before harvesting to make sure everything has run through.

Thanks CG for the great thread.


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## Truth B Known (Apr 8, 2011)

yo, this is my concoction... check it-

per 32 oz spray bottle:

1 tsp - dynagrow 100% neem oil (run hot water over bottle if solid)
1 oz dutch masters saturator (the ONLY product i'll use that's not organic)

you spray this EVERY 3 DAYS ((((from the time you -get the clones or -cut them or -from seedling ..thru 4th week of flower))))
i use 1/2 tsp of azamax the first 2 sprays, then when transplanting, and last spray


i mix the water at about 70-80f usually (any colder and the neem oil will start to solidify again) but keep shaking every 30 sec's or so between spraying..

you do it right, and you will have beautiful, healthy, bug free plants!!
do a nice mist on the whole underside, no matter size, cover entire plant

 hope that helps! -peace



> What about azamax on blooming plants?


make sure you do a light mist and you better have LOW humidity.. i used it on a couple outdoor plants last year all the way thru harvest.. they seemed to do fine.. but it was dry as fuck out here.. so just watch the humidity, don't wanna go sprayin down buds in a wet ass room.. no bueno! worrrrd! good luck! peace


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## jyermum (Apr 8, 2011)

Just read this entire thread. WOW! Crazy grow, keep up the good work.


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## rosecitypapa (Apr 8, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> oh yeah, they are bloodsuckers all right. no, i meant like she has them. in her apartment. apparently there's 'issues' all over the building.


Food grade Diatomaceous Earth is effective, natural, non-toxic and good for fleas too.


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## mellokitty (Apr 8, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Right now, we're leaning on the Spinosad. It has halted the infestation from increasing, and we hope continued applications will knock em out. I have had horrible results applying Pyrethrin on any plants 3 weeks or more into bloom....drastic yield reduction. I actually used pyrethrin for most of my career on these problems. Since I was spraying the entire room, I didn't really notice the yield reduction too much....until I was running a flip settup. I got bugs in one room and not the other. The room I sprayed yielded 20% less than the unsprayed room. Since then, I've been afraid of it in bloom. What about azamax on blooming plants?
> 
> For right now, we're going to keep blasting them with the Spinosad. One application wiped out the thrips. My buddy who told me about it says it takes several applications to get rid of mites, but that it will work. Once we get these under control, I'm going to be using the spinosad every 2-3 weeks as a preventative. The stuff just doesn't seem to affect the plants at all. We're setting off a Doctor Doom Bomb in the veg room tomorrow to prevent anything in there.
> 
> Thanks to all for the info. If the Spinosad does not wipe them out, I'll be using either the azomax or the avid, depending on what you all tell me about application in mid bloom.


it's true, i'm wary of pyreths on bloomers too. 
more points for spinosad. must get some, just to have it around.
isn't dr doom pyreth-based? the last time we used it in a room, it burned off all our bottom leaves.

just fyi: avid is some bad shit. personally i'd rather smoke webs (and so would our patients). ecotoxicity starts at 0.36 ppb. (yes, b.)


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## mellokitty (Apr 8, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> Food grade Diatomaceous Earth is effective, natural, non-toxic and good for fleas too.


thanks, i think that's what the pest-control people come and *pouf* around your bed and stuff, right? (i have some but i figured if they're doing it for her i'd just as soon keep mine lol)
so far she has the pest strip across the door, which we've sprayed pokon all around the threshold and doorjamb. *fingers crossed* (i know i know sorry to get OT)....


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## SCCA (Apr 8, 2011)

I haven't noticed any yield loss with the azamax. if i use it later in flower the buds tend to be a bit fluffier, but i notice that with any spray. azadirachtin (derived from neem oil) is absorbed much more quickly than pythrethrin and doesent clog the stomata as much as neem oil. i would recommend switching back and forth between the Spinosad and Azamax/Azatrol so the mites dont become immune. i havent been using the Spinosad, but i think i need to add it to the arsenal.


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 8, 2011)

hey CG when you going to get some updated pic?


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## Sr. Verde (Apr 8, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> hey CG when you going to get some updated pic?



after he digs out of that forest, machete in hand I'm sure...


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## collective gardener (Apr 8, 2011)

Truth B Known said:


> yo, this is my concoction... check it-
> 
> per 32 oz spray bottle:
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have a nice routine. Unfortunately, it takes Helper D about 4 hrs to spray every plant in the grow. That every 3 days is just too much.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Apr 8, 2011)

what if he used that??


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## collective gardener (Apr 8, 2011)

Yeah, Kitty, the Doom is Pyre based. I just feel like once we get these things under control, I have to do it. I've had good luck with the foggers in the past. Gets into the nooks and corners. 

The good news is: the spinosad is working...no doubt. And still zero negative effects on the plants. All you Granola Heads will love this shit. It smells just like dirt. I mixed up a huge batch in a trash can and dipped all veging plants under about 2 feet tall. Then, I did a 4 hour spray regime in the bloom room...hit every plant twice. It was a great air circulation test. The RH only went from 43% to 47%...and back to 43% in about 15 mins. Helper D has been sick for the last 3 days, so it's been me alone for 12 hrs/day. Why do I have to kill bugs AND trim at the same time?

The good news is, patient feedback has been excellent. All we have is Bubba right now. I have a Chem Dog coming out in the next few days. It somehow got slipped in with the first batch of clones from my friend....I need a name for "my friend". We'll call him "Commercial J". Without him we'd still be 6 weeks from harvest. Anyways, we also have the fist test Laughgani coming out in about 2-3 weeks. The first of the 10 gallon Bubbas come out on the 14th. There's about 4 of those and they look soooooo good. I'm amazed at the difference in bud size from the 5 gallon Bubbas to the 10 gallon Bubbas. The 10's also vegged for about 10 days more. They're just fucking huge. One of them (plant number 3 dash 2) looks like she may throw an elbow. This would be the biggest indoor plant I've ever grown. My previous record was an NL mother that gave me 13 ozs. I'm a 20 year SOG/SCROG vet that's just not used to this big plant thing. 

Godzilla (our DWC Bubba) is well into bloom and looking terrific. I'll get a pic soon. I think we're going to try an 8 plant DWC batch. I purchased a big air pump capable of running 8 buckets. We'll probably link these all together and circulate through a 20 gallon res. Then, maybe, we can change the water once/week instead of every 3 days. The best thing we're seeing with the DWC's is the small footprint with loads of very large buds. The branches are very thick and grow straight up really close together. I estimate the plant takes up around 2' x 2' and should yield around 6 ozs. So far, it looks like Godzilla is going to have the biggest buds.

Once I get caught up, we'll do the induction lighting test. It will be a mini test, but should give us an idea of what these things can do. It will be cute: 3 little topped Bubbas, finishing at about 18" tall. One under the 50 watt induction, one under 50 watt LED, and one under 175 watt HPS. I don't know how accurate it will be compared to a big light test...but it will give us all something to gab about.

That's it for me. Once Helper D gets back in the game I'll take some pics and post em.


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## collective gardener (Apr 8, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> View attachment 1540760
> what if he used that??


He'd break off branches like mad. Shit, he snaps one/day _without_ anything strapped to him. Thanks for the thought, though. Cheers.


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## TheLastWood (Apr 8, 2011)

Hey cg things are soundin great. I.just swapped out my mh and hps for 2 400w ceramic metal halides. There sweet man. I can't wait to see the induction. With just 1 plant under each light they will all do good probably. Only problem would be laughani topped under led = for penetration.


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## canolution (Apr 9, 2011)

holy shit big timing beautiful grow


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## SCCA (Apr 10, 2011)

that back pack sprayer isnt a bad idea. depending on the type you can put a longer hose on it so you dont have to carry it around with you. i have done this to little 1g pump sprayers too. if the hose attaches with a nipple and a coupler then its easy. the local ace sells a reinforced clear tubing about the same size a most sprayer hoses. it may take a little soak in hot water to soften it up to make it fit.


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## collective gardener (Apr 10, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Hey cg things are soundin great. I.just swapped out my mh and hps for 2 400w ceramic metal halides. There sweet man. I can't wait to see the induction. With just 1 plant under each light they will all do good probably. Only problem would be laughani topped under led = for penetration.


Let us know how those ceramics treat you. We've been using Pulse Start Metal Halide Bulbs in a 6.4K temp in four of our six metal halide lamps in veg. I use Hortilux Daylight Blue in the other two. We've been thinking of trying the Pulse Starts in a 3K temp for the bloom room. I've heard of people doing this and getting results similar to 2 HPS/1 MH settups. My favorite blooming light has always been 2 HPS and 1 MH oin a Sun Circle Light Mover. The only problem is that you have to design your whole grow around the dimmensions of those light movers. AND, a circle isn't the most efficient use of space, is it? In the end, I'm pretty happy with the blue enhanced HPS bulbs. I've enjoyed the Horti for years with Mag ballasts, and now use the Digilux with great results. I know that the 2HPS/1MH combo would yield a little more, but not enough to be worth the spacing limitations.

Yes, Wood...penetration will be a huge issue with the inductive lights. Penetration is why I have refused to switch to 600's when many people have done so with good results. The Laughgani is so dense, that even small plants would need alot of light. The plant itself also seems to tolerate more light than the Bubbas. Growing large plants like we do, I'm not sure whether or not the inductive lights will do the job. Oh well, this is why we're going to test em. 

We are considering expanding the bloom room into sheds in the main warehouse. I'm thinking a circle of DWC buckets around 2 - 1000 watt vertical lights. We would both veg and bloom in the little sheds. I'm thinking of using a circle of 6 x 6 x 6 wire mesh to train the plants onto. We are greedy.


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## TheLastWood (Apr 10, 2011)

That sounds like an awesome idea. I just saw a really cool pic of a plant trained up a verticle screen vertibare in the nesw thread "mutated or sculpted plant game" (I think that's the title)

I'm thinking about starting scrog. I lke lst but something captivating about a scrog.


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## rosecitypapa (Apr 10, 2011)

Hey CG,

Have you put a meter on those digi's? Do they really put out more lumens as claimed?



> We are considering expanding the bloom room into sheds in the main warehouse. I'm thinking a circle of DWC buckets around 2 - 1000 watt vertical lights. We would both veg and bloom in the little sheds. I'm thinking of using a circle of 6 x 6 x 6 wire mesh to train the plants onto.


The wire mesh could be a smaller diameter. Without the hoods also reflecting heat, the plants can grow closer to the bulbs with no ill effect. I'm using 600's right now and my plants are mostly 12" from the bulb. Some colas are as close as 6" with no bleaching yet still make me nervous.


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## collective gardener (Apr 10, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> Hey CG,
> 
> Have you put a meter on those digi's? Do they really put out more lumens as claimed?
> 
> ...


I have metered the Digilux's, and they do put out every bit as much as advertised. I also metered them against a Horti 1000, both bulbs 1 week old. While I don't remember the exact FC reading, the Digi was around 12% brighter than the Horti. I am running 2 Horti's right now with 9 Digilux's. The real test will be in 6 months. It's my understanding (from Hortilux themselves) that digital ballasts cause their bulbs to degrade in brightness AND undergo considerable temperature shift. I'm willing to bet the shift is towards the orange spectrum. Anyways, I'll meter the Digi's and the Horti's after 6 months use. This is my first rum with the Digi's. I used to run Horti's for 6 months. I'm hoping to run the Digi's for a year or more. Once I lose 10% brightness, I toss em. Actually, if a 10% decrease in brightness resulted in a 10% loss of yield, it would pay to change the bulbs when they lose about 3%!

I'm also running 1 - 600watt bulb with the plant about a foot away from it. I'll probably run 1000's in the vert settup. I don't like the plants any closer than 2' to a 1000 watt bulb...and that's during veg, when we're really trying to stack the nodes close. After week 3 of budding, I prefer them around 3' away. We noticed on our last harvest that the upper buds were actually a little smaller than a few nodes down. After raising the lights, the next harvest is developing much better. We will harvest the top 1/2 of the plants, lower the light, and harvest the rest a few days later. We tried that on one plant in the first harvest and liked the results. The lower buds filled out nicely in just 3 days of intense light. They were still smaller than the top half, but the density and color was that of the upper canopy.


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## selisko (Apr 11, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Not much to post today...no new fancy gear pics. I did get 8 clones from Clonville on Ventura in the Valley. Honestly, the clones look pretty bad. I'm guessing 50% wll survive even though they are rooted. I usually don't buy clones from un-tested plants, buy heard good things about this place and need a sativa or 2 to round out the stable.
> 
> OMG I thought i was the only person that thought clone ville was butt dust! I bought like 8 or 9 of their preflower clones and they are all tall like males. Then I nothiced they came with root aphids! Needless to say, never going that route again. And for it to be "cloneville" where was all the rooms of clones? I saw two rooms. I've been to dispensaries with more clones. As far as cloneville, theyre babies seem to be ok. But step away from the preflowers! Damn 20k in lighting you guys are serious! I love when people come togather to do something rewarding.


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## selisko (Apr 11, 2011)

Wait a minute... your not sublbc are you??


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## TheLastWood (Apr 11, 2011)

I've always thought its cool you can buy clones there but it seems like more trouble than its worth. 

Like you said when you got the other clones "no ones gonna sell decent genetics for 15 bucks"

Hopefuully no bugs this time


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## Gamberro (Apr 11, 2011)

It actually fills my heart with hope and happiness to see that this is being done legally in some places. Marijuana has its faults, but less fault often than, say, ice cream, and so many people need marijuana desperately for medical use. I sell discount to all people who I know to have verifiable medical need for MJ, and that's me doing what I can do. I would love to be involved in an operation like this, but for now I live as a rebel in the northeast USA. As a Christian my mission to give marijuana to those in need is a necessary part of my life.


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## collective gardener (Apr 12, 2011)

We get predatory mites today...5000 of em. Fortinately. we live in a agricultural area and the mites are available evrywhere. Thge salesman convinced me that his boys could wipe out any infestation...as long as I was willing to purchase enough numbers. I've commited to 5000/week for 2 weeks, then a touchup spray for a week, then 1000 more mites for some cleanup. The cost is $20/1000 mites. Seems cheap enough. The Spinosad was having very little effect on the spider mites. I used some Pyreth on a particularily bad plant. It knocked out the bugs, but also turned the white pistils brown. I'll report back on the progress.


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## slk (Apr 12, 2011)

Would you ever use Malathion for those mites? I know not to use it on the flowers, but for veging and clones? 
At one time I would import orchids from Mexico and the Agg Dept at the border would make me dip all plants in Malathion before I could enter the US.


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## collective gardener (Apr 12, 2011)

First...some pics of a Chem Dog we harvested today. This is just head stash...the clone slipped in with 20 cuts from Commercial J.







This plant was stunted early in flower. because it was different from the rest, it's water uptake was less. Before we realized she was different, Helper D watered it the same duration as the Bubbas. Well, she was over watered and spent 2 days with the drain holes under water. It never really recovered in size, but what we did get looks really nice. The buds trimmed out round and dense. It's not as covered in trichomes as the Bubbas. The smell is mild. Unfortunately, I took several cuts from her prior to knowing what she was. We thought it was Bubba. So, I now have about 5 of em in veg. If this smokes good enough, we'll put em through to bloom. If not, they go into the trash.

Helper D unleashed the predator mites today in the bloom room. We're keeping our fingers crossed. Commercial J doesn't like them, but after some pressing, he admitted to never actually trying them. Another commercial grower friend says she used them to wipe out a horrible infestation with wonderful results. What we're hearing is that as long as you can afford to buy enough of them, they will do the job everytime. Given the amount of buds on the line, we have no problem buying as many of these guys as we need. I'm dying to look under a microscope tomorrow to see them in action. I so want to see a spider mite get eaten alive. We have an order in for another 5000 next Tue. I'll keep reporting on the progress.


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## collective gardener (Apr 12, 2011)

slk said:


> Would you ever use Malathion for those mites? I know not to use it on the flowers, but for veging and clones?
> At one time I would import orchids from Mexico and the Agg Dept at the border would make me dip all plants in Malathion before I could enter the US.


While I'm not adverse to using chemical nutes, chemical pesticides are different. Malathion seems a little gnarly to be smoking. I just can't pass that off to our patients. If I wanted to use chems, Floramite is the one for mites. It gives knockdown results for 30 days. I have only used it to spray rooms (not plants) between harvests.

Once we get this under control, we'll implement some preventative measures. I was just hoping that we would get through a year or so before having to do so. Guess I was dreaming.


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## SCCA (Apr 12, 2011)

Beautiful chem dog CG! hope it turns out to be a keeper. the predatory mites are supposed to be awesome, but pricey. iv been trying to get the guy at the local hydro store to order some in, but he thinks he wont be able sell them. I guess most people don't know about them. one thing i haven't quite figured out is if yous should continue using them regularly as a preventative, or wait for signs of more spider mites. i would think a regular application every week or two would prevent any future problems. spider mites are a horrible problem around here and spraying seems to be everyone's solution. nothing ever seems to totally get rid of them in some rooms.


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## Sr. Verde (Apr 12, 2011)

Predator mites haha hell yeah


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## TheLastWood (Apr 12, 2011)

I've heard predetaors work great but they take time and you gotta keep adding em cuz mites reproduce so fast and they only eat so many a day. But they should annihalate them in a couple weeks.

I can't believe you can throw away perfectly good plants like that chemdog. It just sweems wrong.


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## collective gardener (Apr 13, 2011)

We are so fortunate to live in an agricultural area. We can get the predator mites right from the lab. The guys at the lab are my new best friends. They asked me right off if we were growing medicinal herbs...lol. I think they could tell that Helper D was loaded. Anyways, they told us that each pred mite will eat 5 large eggs/day. They also said that 5000 was more than enough for our room size. We will continue to add 5000/week until all mites and eggs are gone. The predator mites will also breed! The mites come in a jar full of what looks like pencil shavings. The lab gave us 100 little "french fry" bags. Helper D puts a pinch of the shavings in the bag, then wires the bag to the plant. Each plant gets a bag. The mites then march up and out of the bag and onto the plant. The lab boys also told us to move the plants close enough together for several leaves to be touching. This way the little guys can easily travel from plant to plant. They will automatically distribute themselves. We were advised to increase the RH to whatever we were comfortable with and to mist the plants with RO water twice/day. The good mites like water and the bad mites do not. I'll continue to provide live war coverage.


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## collective gardener (Apr 13, 2011)

I posted this plant on another thread a while back. Figured it was time to share it with this gang. I grew her last winter totally organic outside. The plant was given to me by afriend who wanted to see what it would smoke like totally live soil organic. I had an organic head stash grow going last year. We don't know what the strain is. All we know is that it is the most purple plant any of us has ever grown or seen grown. We nick named it Purple Death. It smells like a basket of mixed ripe fruit. It smokes super smooth and leaves a pine cone aftertaste. The high is pure indica and very heavy...like being wrapped in a warm heavy blanket. We keep a pipe load in the night stand for when my wife or I can't sleep. One toke of this brings the sleep on.


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## Tamorin (Apr 13, 2011)

I dont know how ive missed this tread but great job even with the mites. I love the info on the predeator mites never heard of them. I too will be rock 20 k watts but until i finish building the garage its just 8 k watts for now. Rock out ill be reading.


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## TheLastWood (Apr 13, 2011)

Damn gardener, you should totally cross that purple death with the laughanis. I bet the purple would really come out. Its pretty damn purple buds already. U probably don't have a male though. 

You never cease to amaze me. Nice work bud.

Where did u learn how to grow cg? Just trial n error? I know you've said you lost a few crops before.


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (Apr 13, 2011)

This just in from the front
[video=youtube;sBksHaTQCbU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBksHaTQCbU[/video]


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## MoJobud (Apr 13, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I have metered the Digilux's, and they do put out every bit as much as advertised. I also metered them against a Horti 1000, both bulbs 1 week old. While I don't remember the exact FC reading, the Digi was around 12% brighter than the Horti. I am running 2 Horti's right now with 9 Digilux's. The real test will be in 6 months. It's my understanding (from Hortilux themselves) that digital ballasts cause their bulbs to degrade in brightness AND undergo considerable temperature shift. I'm willing to bet the shift is towards the orange spectrum. Anyways, I'll meter the Digi's and the Horti's after 6 months use. This is my first rum with the Digi's. I used to run Horti's for 6 months. I'm hoping to run the Digi's for a year or more. Once I lose 10% brightness, I toss em. Actually, if a 10% decrease in brightness resulted in a 10% loss of yield, it would pay to change the bulbs when they lose about 3%!
> 
> I'm also running 1 - 600watt bulb with the plant about a foot away from it. I'll probably run 1000's in the vert settup. I don't like the plants any closer than 2' to a 1000 watt bulb...and that's during veg, when we're really trying to stack the nodes close. After week 3 of budding, I prefer them around 3' away. We noticed on our last harvest that the upper buds were actually a little smaller than a few nodes down. After raising the lights, the next harvest is developing much better. We will harvest the top 1/2 of the plants, lower the light, and harvest the rest a few days later. We tried that on one plant in the first harvest and liked the results. The lower buds filled out nicely in just 3 days of intense light. They were still smaller than the top half, but the density and color was that of the upper canopy.


I take it that you don't leave the plants in total darkness for the last day or two?


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## incognegro999 (Apr 13, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I posted this plant on another thread a while back. Figured it was time to share it with this gang. I grew her last winter totally organic outside. The plant was given to me by afriend who wanted to see what it would smoke like totally live soil organic. I had an organic head stash grow going last year. We don't know what the strain is. All we know is that it is the most purple plant any of us has ever grown or seen grown. We nick named it Purple Death. It smells like a basket of mixed ripe fruit. It smokes super smooth and leaves a pine cone aftertaste. The high is pure indica and very heavy...like being wrapped in a warm heavy blanket. We keep a pipe load in the night stand for when my wife or I can't sleep. One toke of this brings the sleep on.
> 
> View attachment 1548112


Purple rain, puurrple raain haha. That plant is awesome.


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## Sr. Verde (Apr 13, 2011)

CG I love the Live War Coverage!



Interesting, an application of predator mites to a commercial garden!

What happens when your cutting down the bud though? Where are the mites then? Perhaps this is a stupid question, but I'm not too sure of the answer! Thanks in advance if you answer

Keep up the good work, the buds are looking heavenly!


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## collective gardener (Apr 13, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Damn gardener, you should totally cross that purple death with the laughanis. I bet the purple would really come out. Its pretty damn purple buds already. U probably don't have a male though.
> 
> You never cease to amaze me. Nice work bud.
> 
> Where did u learn how to grow cg? Just trial n error? I know you've said you lost a few crops before.


 
The only thing that's held me back from breeding all these years is access to a great male. Not good. Great. Every friend I have that breeds has 1 or 2 males that are the backbone of their breeding program. I could get their pollen, but I really need my own special boy. I'm considering ordering a bunch of Dr Atomic's Northern Lights for the express purpose of finding a great male. I wouldn't mind crossing everything I have with Northern lights. 

I learned mostly by book. Then, trial and error. I always tried to go big. My first books were Indoor Marijuana Horticulture, and Hydroponic Vegetable Production. The latter is the textbook for many college hydroponic courses. My first light settup was 1 - 400 watt MH and 2 - 1000 watt HPS. That was in 1992ish. In 1994 I was running 2 Sun Circles, each with 2 - 1000 watt HPS and 1 - 1000 watt MH. In 1996 I grew over 50lbs of Northern Lights#5 in a greenhouse and outdoors in my backyard. I had it all pre-sold for 4k/lb. The entire crop was stolen from my garage where it was drying. What they left on the ground was 5 lbs. Just enough to get me up to the mountains for 6 months to decompress.

Since, I've grown both for myself, in partnerships, and as a hired gun for others. The only style of growing I have not done is Guerilla.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Apr 13, 2011)

damn man I would have went to the mountains to after that shit. but i wanted to drop this link to ya thought it might interest you. Tissue Culture/Micro Propagation Grow from Scratch.. ps now i dont feel so bad i started a journal of what im doing and it only has like 700 views with only 43 comments 26 of those are mine. but your has like 40000 views and only 700 comments


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## TheLastWood (Apr 13, 2011)

Yeah the first book I read/bought was indoor marijuana horticulture.I love the book but so many things from that era are outdated, I'm learning. Its still a great one. 

That sucks about gettin all that bud stolen. I can't even imagine that. Its like losing a family member.


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## Mattysville (Apr 13, 2011)

200K gone! I am sorry for you my friend, you are truly a helpful and compassionate person. No one deserves to have their hard work disappear before their eyes due to thieves. That is what sickens me about growing (and life in general), no matter how much time and effort you put into it there is always someone who is looking for the easy way out, willing to take everything from you so they don't have to work for it.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 13, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> damn man I would have went to the mountains to after that shit. but i wanted to drop this link to ya thought it might interest you. Tissue Culture/Micro Propagation Grow from Scratch.. ps now i dont feel so bad i started a journal of what im doing and it only has like 700 views with only 43 comments 26 of those are mine. but your has like 40000 views and only 700 comments


That's because he's been able to keep things on topic surprisingly well. Lets try to maintain that.


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## incognegro999 (Apr 13, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> The only thing that's held me back from breeding all these years is access to a great male. Not good. Great. Every friend I have that breeds has 1 or 2 males that are the backbone of their breeding program. I could get their pollen, but I really need my own special boy. I'm considering ordering a bunch of Dr Atomic's Northern Lights for the express purpose of finding a great male. I wouldn't mind crossing everything I have with Northern lights.
> 
> I learned mostly by book. Then, trial and error. I always tried to go big. My first books were Indoor Marijuana Horticulture, and Hydroponic Vegetable Production. The latter is the textbook for many college hydroponic courses. My first light settup was 1 - 400 watt MH and 2 - 1000 watt HPS. That was in 1992ish. In 1994 I was running 2 Sun Circles, each with 2 - 1000 watt HPS and 1 - 1000 watt MH. In 1996 I grew over 50lbs of Northern Lights#5 in a greenhouse and outdoors in my backyard. I had it all pre-sold for 4k/lb. The entire crop was stolen from my garage where it was drying. What they left on the ground was 5 lbs. Just enough to get me up to the mountains for 6 months to decompress.
> 
> Since, I've grown both for myself, in partnerships, and as a hired gun for others. The only style of growing I have not done is Guerilla.


I cannot imagine the paranoia I would have with 50lbs of weed in my garage. And the devestation at finding it gone. Holy shit.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 13, 2011)

incognegro999 said:


> I cannot imagine the paranoia I would have with 50lbs of weed in my garage. And the devestation at finding it gone. Holy shit.


That would probably send me into a murderous rampage. To say the least. People would not like me at all for a while after something like that. I'm actually kind of fuming just thinking about the possibility, though I never have that kind of weight to worry about in the first place...


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## collective gardener (Apr 14, 2011)

Wow...I didn't know my rip off experience would hit everyone so hard. Truly didn't want to dredge up negative vibes. The story does have an ending: The thief was my cousin. I always suspected him, but couldn't prove it. He knew about the grow, as he was my helper and in for 10%. About a year after the "event" he bought a new condo. Another year later, he took a 100k loan out on the property (which was worth about 150k). This meant he had originally put about 100k down on the place. I had already just let it go when I found out.

Today, he's a junkie. He shot the condo up his arm. Last year at a family Christmas party he was found passed out in his car with a needle in his arm....for real. Karma works wonders if you give her a chance. Let's not get on a negative trip about this. It's the nature of growing that some day this may happen. We all knew it when we signed up. All we can do is grow the best we can, and live the best we can. Thieves are short term people, and rarely happy.


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## collective gardener (Apr 14, 2011)

Here's our first 10 gallon Bubba harvested today. It looks to be real close to an LB. Sorry about the pic quality. But, you all get the idea.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 14, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Here's our first 10 gallon Bubba harvested today. It looks to be real close to an LB. Sorry about the pic quality. But, you all get the idea.
> 
> View attachment 1549570


Nice plant CG. If I had to guess without you telling me, I'd peg that at around 10-12oz. That's crazy if it ends up being an LB.


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## Ant Grows Dank (Apr 14, 2011)

I wonder how they count the predator mites lol.... 5,000 would be a bitch by hand lol.


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## rzza (Apr 14, 2011)

yall are bein generous or optimistic i think....5 zips max imo.  cant wait to see


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 14, 2011)

rzza said:


> yall are bein generous or optimistic i think....5 zips max imo. cant wait to see


It's a ten gallon pot.


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## collective gardener (Apr 14, 2011)

rzza said:


> yall are bein generous or optimistic i think....5 zips max imo. cant wait to see


God, I hope not! LOL. A pound is optimistic. I think Wolverrine is in there at around 12. The only reason I can't guess any closer is that the bud sizes and density on the 10 gallon pots are different than the 5's. If this plant were in a 5er, I'd guess 8 oz, but the buds are much denser than the 5's. Oh well...we'll see.


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## collective gardener (Apr 14, 2011)

Ant Grows Dank said:


> I wonder how they count the predator mites lol.... 5,000 would be a bitch by hand lol.


 
No shit, eh? How do I know they're not fucking me? I can't even find the little fuckers.


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## rzza (Apr 14, 2011)

i wish i could see the top buds....

but i reevaluated after seeing the bucket and stalk. 7oz.


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 14, 2011)

I got a question about preditor mite do they eat any other bugs like thrips?


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## mellokitty (Apr 14, 2011)

i don't know much about predator mites specifically, but it would seem like you can get a biological control for pretty much any problem bug these days, for example:

http://www.langleyadvance.com/life/Beneficial+bugs+waste+pests/4520861/story.html

i'm fond of ladybugs except for the suicide factor. on baverbs they leave little streaks. gross.


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## rzza (Apr 14, 2011)

suicide factor?

i had a few hundred die after only a couple days.


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## mellokitty (Apr 14, 2011)

rzza said:


> suicide factor?
> 
> i had a few hundred die after only a couple days.


"the light.... it's so beautiful.... i can't help myself....." *BZZT*


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## collective gardener (Apr 14, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> I got a question about preditor mite do they eat any other bugs like thrips?


Kitty is correct. There is a biological for just about everything. The problem with bios, I'm learning, is you have to trust them. My mites will get a little worse before they get better. I cannot spray. All I can do is HOPE that they will perform as advertised. If they do not, I'll lose this entire crop. By the time I realize that they are not working, it will be really bad. For this reason, we're getting 10,000 more on Monday. We're commited to these fellas.


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## TheLastWood (Apr 14, 2011)

I'm sure they will work. If u buy mass qty like that they will pwn the mites. They gotta eat. Its actually probably one of the best ways to go considering plant safety. Letting em out in a warehouse is a little different than letting out 15000 bugs in your house.


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## rzza (Apr 14, 2011)

kitty your funny. yes i noticed alot went to the light but they are cooled and pretty cool to the touch. in my case i think they died cause no food source. they were preventative.


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## Sr. Verde (Apr 14, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Kitty is correct. There is a biological for just about everything. The problem with bios, I'm learning, is you have to trust them. My mites will get a little worse before they get better. I cannot spray. All I can do is HOPE that they will perform as advertised. If they do not, I'll lose this entire crop. By the time I realize that they are not working, it will be really bad. For this reason, we're getting 10,000 more on Monday. We're commited to these fellas.




I'm positive your crop will be fine man.

I mean, those predator mites have got to eat... That's every animals first priority. 

No doubt if you have enough they will seek out all the spider mites and eggs and eat eat eat.


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## incognegro999 (Apr 14, 2011)

When they run out of food do they eat each other?


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 14, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> I'm positive your crop will be fine man.
> 
> I mean, those predator mites have got to eat... That's every animals first priority.
> 
> No doubt if you have enough they will seek out all the spider mites and eggs and eat eat eat.


I'm pretty sure they only eat the live ones, not the eggs. That's why you have to keep reintroducing them.


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## incognegro999 (Apr 14, 2011)

According to these guys some of em eat the eggs, but I dunno a damn thing about pred mites so take it with a grain of salt haha. Never heard of em b4 after seeing em on heredecided to read a little bit. http://www.hydro-gardens.com/spidermite.htm


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 14, 2011)

incognegro999 said:


> According to these guys some of em eat the eggs, but I dunno a damn thing about pred mites so take it with a grain of salt haha. Never heard of em b4 after seeing em on heredecided to read a little bit. http://www.hydro-gardens.com/spidermite.htm


Yeah, on this I'm only going by what I've read. I can't claim certainty either.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Apr 14, 2011)

I have used predators before and I got what the place called a tripple threat and some ate eggs some didnt, and the reason for reintroduction is the same as sprays to make sure you got everything.(IMO)


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 14, 2011)

what is a tripple threat? is that three different types in one or a specail?


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## NorthernLights#5 (Apr 14, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> what is a tripple threat? is that three different types in one or a specail?


Its three different types of predator mites


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 14, 2011)

ok cool, so each one feeds on the different stages of mite development?


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## NorthernLights#5 (Apr 14, 2011)

Yeah that was my understanding of it, and they lay there own eggs so they are around for a bit until all mites are gone atleast they worked for me when I had a big break out in the 7th week of flower and I didnt want to use Azamax again.(after they got chopped I pulled everything out of the room and cleaned everything with Bleach)


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 14, 2011)

thanks for the info


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## collective gardener (Apr 15, 2011)

Here's what I've learned about predatory mites over the last week. All of this info was given to me by the boys at Rincon Vitova Insectaries:

The mites will not eat each other. For this reason, they must be moved quickly to the grow room, lest they starve.

The "triple threat" offered by Tip Top Bio is three strains of mites. Persimillis is the most voracious predator and can consume 20 eggs, or 5 adult mites/day. It needs 60% humidity to flourish. The Californicus only eats 5 eggs/day, but can tolerate lower humidity levels and will live much longer without a food source. I'm not sure on the 3rd. What Tip Top Bio doesn't tell you is that Californicus will eat Persimillis eggs! Not only do you lose any breeding benefit, but the Californicus eats less bad mite eggs because it has Persimillis eggs to feed on. This may be the reason that many people do not like using bio controls. Tip Top Bio advertises heavily and most people buy the Triple Threat.

The bottom line is, unless you're willing to increase your humidity to AT LEAST 60%, go with the Califonicus. It may not eat as much, but it will definately survive and breed heavily.

Predators can outbreed 2 spotted mites 2/1. The females lay 3 eggs/day and live for about 20 days. We were told of a test done where a single pregnant female was placed in a 1/4 acre greenhouse infested with mites. It took several months, but the predators eventually out-populated and wiped out the mites. The standard application rate is 1-2 predators/sq ft of grow space. Infested grows require higher rates. We released 40 mites/sq ft. 

We chose the Californicus to start because it will live and breed for sure in our 40% RH bloom room. I didn't want to raise the RH to 60% and trade mites for Powdery Mildew. Many of my plants are in the later stages of bloom and I've already had to cut off a couple buds with PM. These were most likely buds that got a splash of water while Helper D watered. Everytime I have raised RH above 40%, I've regretted it. If these bad boys can eat 5 eggs/day...that's 25,000 eggs per day!

On Monday we'll add 5000 more Californicus.

We will contine to add predator mites every week until I see no signs of any spider mites. We will probably add 1000 Californicus every month as a preventative. They only cost $25 for 1000. Once we go biological, we cannot use sprays. So, we'll also add ladybugs and a thrip predator as a prevention measure. If this regime works, I'll be thrilled. It's way easier than spraying and sooooo easy on the plants. We're lucky to have Rinco Vitova, a huge insect lab with lab geeks available to answer questions, a couple miles away. They have a huge catelog with every possible bio control you can think of.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 15, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Here's what I've learned about predatory mites over the last week. All of this info was given to me by the boys at Rincon Vitova Insectaries:
> 
> The mites will not eat each other. For this reason, they must be moved quickly to the grow room, lest they starve.
> 
> ...


I learn something new every day. Huh.


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 15, 2011)

thats killer info


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## collective gardener (Apr 15, 2011)

While I was ordering our new bugs, one of the big wigs at my bug supplier asked us to come down and meet with him. They are aware of what we grow. They have asked us to assist them in developing a protocol for bio controls in an indoor cannabis grow room. We, of course, happily agreed. He convinced us how important it is to up our RH to help the predators do their job. I convinced jim how important it is to keep RH down to ward off Powdery Mildew. The solution is, they carry a bacteria that controls powdery mildew. It is mixed with water and sprayed on the plants. The spray is applied prior to applying a round of predators. The new insects can then stick to the leaves when applied with a salt shaker. Anyways, this was just one of several topics we discussed on the cannabis grower's specific needs. They want to start providing several protocols for cannabis growers. These would be for infestation control and prevention of most bio hazards in the grow room.

We toured the facility, which was amazing. These people know bugs! There are dozens of rooms, each with a specific environment. Some hot, some cold, some ultra humid, some dry. Each room houses a specific insect in a specific developement stage. Some insects are raised only as food for the insects to be sold. Given the amount of insects they carry, I now believe that sprays can be a thing of the past. 

They gave us some Lacewing larvae. We put some on the plant's leaves and the little bastards went right under the leaf and started eating mite larvae within seconds. A single Lacewing larvae can consume 10,000 mites and/or eggs in its 3 week lifespan. The downside is that they do not reproduce well in the grow room. BUT, the larvae are only $35 for 500, and 5000 eggs can be had for $25. The lacewing will also eat aphids and thrips. Basically, it will eat everything it comes across. This also means predator's eggs (the adults are too fast). Because of this, they should only be used on plants heavily infested as a one time use.

I'll keep passing on the info as I get it. Rincon Vitova should have a complete cannabis grow room bio control protocol within a month or so. I'll post it here.

On another note. We are looking for finacially challenged critically ill cancer and AIDS patients to donate meds to free of charge. If anyone knows of someone or someplace I can contact to set up donations in So Cal, please PM me. Maybe some sort of outreach center, or something? Thank you all for trying.


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## TheLastWood (Apr 15, 2011)

Cg, ur the shit. 

Keep up the amazing work man!


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## bonghittersanber (Apr 15, 2011)

yea collective gardener, you seem like a great person who cares a great deal about other people. you have a good attitude and a lot of info. that is very considerate and very kind of you to donate to the seriously ill. good for you buddy. its nice to know that there is still some caring people out there.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 16, 2011)

CG: careful with what they tell you about the bacteria controlling PM. I'm betting it's bacillus thurengesis (sp?), which I've tried in the past with OK results. It does have a rather strong odor, and I think it affected the taste of my finished product. When I used it was in the form of Serenade, you have to completely saturate all plants in the room including leaf undersides. I'd try to find a happy medium and shoot for 50-53% RH myself, but that's total opinion.


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## collective gardener (Apr 16, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> CG: careful with what they tell you about the bacteria controlling PM. I'm betting it's bacillus thurengesis (sp?), which I've tried in the past with OK results. It does have a rather strong odor, and I think it affected the taste of my finished product. When I used it was in the form of Serenade, you have to completely saturate all plants in the room including leaf undersides. I'd try to find a happy medium and shoot for 50-53% RH myself, but that's total opinion.


Wolverine,

Thanks for the heads up. Based on the smell, it sounds like the same shit. I have not sprayed any flowering plants yet with it. I really don't want to affect the final taste of the meds at all. We'll limit its use to early plants. I still don't feel right spraying any kind of water on a late formed bud.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 16, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Wolverine,
> 
> Thanks for the heads up. Based on the smell, it sounds like the same shit. I have not sprayed any flowering plants yet with it. I really don't want to affect the final taste of the meds at all. We'll limit its use to early plants. I still don't feel right spraying any kind of water on a late formed bud.


I'm with ya. Is a sulfur burner an option for you? That would allow you to raise humidity without fearing the fungus. As long as you don't use it in the final ten days or so it won't affect the taste. I've done this, but all ventilation equipment MUST be turned off during the burn or the shit will condense onto EVERYTHING DO NOT WANT.


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## Tony18 (Apr 16, 2011)

All i gotts say is LADYBUGS


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## jcannons (Apr 16, 2011)

Tony18- Thanks for your contribution to this amazing thread.....
Hey CG, can you take a look at the pics I posted on my thread and give me your opinion as to why one of my plants isn't stretching?

Thanks,

J


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## LostReefSponger (Apr 16, 2011)

This is one amazing thread. I have slowly but surely been catching up on it and I have been loving all of it! So much information and so much knowledge, even a micro-grower like me can use your knowledge to improve my grow! Appreciate you sharing all of this with us, I hope to one day, if I can continue having good luck with growing, get involved with something like this. Gonna continue to be checking in, and I would say keep up the good work but I just feel silly telling someone so advanced that haha, so, uhhhh, here's a toke for you!


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## collective gardener (Apr 16, 2011)

Tony18 said:


> All i gotts say is LADYBUGS


I try my hardest not to get on a negative trip with anyone. But, with comments like this, it's easy to see how people can lose it. Please, Tony, before you comment on _anyone's_ thread, carefully read what it is that you're commenting on.


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## collective gardener (Apr 16, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I'm with ya. Is a sulfur burner an option for you? That would allow you to raise humidity without fearing the fungus. As long as you don't use it in the final ten days or so it won't affect the taste. I've done this, but all ventilation equipment MUST be turned off during the burn or the shit will condense onto EVERYTHING DO NOT WANT.


One of the drawbacks of a perpetual grow is that we almost _always_ have plants within 10 days of harvest. So, it looks like sulfur isn't an option. Good idea, though.

We're _slightly_ increasing the humidity. The lab geeks assured us that the californicus will breed in 40% RH, just not as fast as with 60% RH. The oxidentalis coming next Tue will breed down to 20% RH. We have 2 of my "canary in a coal mine" OG Kush plants in the bloom room that are always the first to get hit with powdery mildew. So far, they're good. If they get the fuzz, we'll back off the RH a couple percent and call that the max. Either way, I'm not going to go over 55%. And, once the mites are under control, it's back to 40%. I've found that as long as I stay 40% in bloom, powdery mildew is not a problem. This seems especially important in sealed grows (ours currently is not sealed). I've had more powdery mildew problems in sealed rooms than in ventilated rooms with identical RH. I have no idea why this is so. But, even in a sealed room, 40% RH seems to be the magic number for PM control.


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## collective gardener (Apr 16, 2011)

Anyone got any info on AIDS and/or cancer patients in need of free meds? We have several ozs cured and ready for donation to financially challenged gravely ill patients. If anyone can help us find some people in the So Cal area, big karma points await you. I can't believe how hard it is to give meds away. I've contacted several outreach centers via email with no reply. We have a legal collective that they can join to make the whole deal legit and 100% legal. I know that there are people in need out there. I just need some help locating them. This is our chance...yours and mine...to do a good thing for sick people and for the cause.


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## Gamberro (Apr 17, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Anyone got any info on AIDS and/or cancer patients in need of free meds? We have several ozs cured and ready for donation to financially challenged gravely ill patients. If anyone can help us find some people in the So Cal area, big karma points await you. I can't believe how hard it is to give meds away. I've contacted several outreach centers via email with no reply. We have a legal collective that they can join to make the whole deal legit and 100% legal. I know that there are people in need out there. I just need some help locating them. This is our chance...yours and mine...to do a good thing for sick people and for the cause.


I had similar issues in Ontario, but eventually it was clear the best way was to get connections at places where they go. Contact local support groups for AIDS/chemotherapy patients, that sort of thing. That really ought to produce results, and even the most conservative tightwads fail to bitch too hard when someone comes offering a donation. Worst case scenario, sell at going rates and donate that to a worthy cause.

Seriously though, let me dedicate a line or two to you. I think that people like you are integral to this world. I really appreciate the donation you give to the people who need it most. May God bless you just as you bless God's children. Thank you.


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## djfloms (Apr 17, 2011)

You hit the nail on the head bud, glad to see someone in this world who is genuine and willing to help the ill. 




collective gardener said:


> Anyone got any info on AIDS and/or cancer patients in need of free meds? We have several ozs cured and ready for donation to financially challenged gravely ill patients. If anyone can help us find some people in the So Cal area, big karma points await you. I can't believe how hard it is to give meds away. I've contacted several outreach centers via email with no reply. We have a legal collective that they can join to make the whole deal legit and 100% legal. I know that there are people in need out there. I just need some help locating them. This is our chance...yours and mine...to do a good thing for sick people and for the cause.


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## collective gardener (Apr 17, 2011)

Gamberro said:


> I had similar issues in Ontario, but eventually it was clear the best way was to get connections at places where they go. Contact local support groups for AIDS/chemotherapy patients, that sort of thing. That really ought to produce results, and even the most conservative tightwads fail to bitch too hard when someone comes offering a donation. Worst case scenario, sell at going rates and donate that to a worthy cause.
> 
> Seriously though, let me dedicate a line or two to you. I think that people like you are integral to this world. I really appreciate the donation you give to the people who need it most. May God bless you just as you bless God's children. Thank you.


Gamberro,
Thanks for the info. We have actually done something similar...contacted the main outreach group in our town for cancer and AIDS. I got zero response. But, now that you say it also, I think that must be the right track. I'll contact them again and broaden my search to other counties. And, thanks for the kind words. I'm touched.

Does anyone else have any leads or suggestions for this cause? I'll drop this issue in a day or 2 and get back on the grow topic...I promise. If anyone has any ideas on how to locate these needy sick folks who I know are out there, let me know. I've been racking my brain on this issue for months. Please, help us help others.


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## incognegro999 (Apr 17, 2011)

Maybe a couple phone calls to local Doctor's offices. When they refer paitents they must have solid contact info for all the various groups. I did a quick google search couldnt come up with much


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## collective gardener (Apr 17, 2011)

incognegro999 said:


> Maybe a couple phone calls to local Doctor's offices. When they refer paitents they must have solid contact info for all the various groups. I did a quick google search couldnt come up with much


Not a bad idea. Maybe a couple oncologists and/or AIDS specialists.

I had the same luck on the google search. I did email the 2 results that came up with no response. Who'd of thought it would be so hard to give away top shelf buds...LOL


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## TheLastWood (Apr 17, 2011)

Well its not hard to give em away, just hard to find the ppl that need it. 

Try radiology centers as well. My grandma had breast cancer n went to radiology 2x a week for months. I went with her a few times as well. So sad.


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## KawiZZR (Apr 17, 2011)

Hey CG, I've been following this for a while but haven't had anything worth saying up until now. Another method you could try for finding patients to donate to could be calling physical therapy centers in your area. I know it isn't the same as AIDS/cancer, but you may be able to find some people with chronic pain who would welcome your generosity and might even be able to give you better leads. Best of luck on your cause and much respect, you guys are really doing a great thing.


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## collective gardener (Apr 18, 2011)

Well, the contacting doctors and therapy centers was a bust. "Patient confidentality" was the phrase of the day. Thank you all for the input. I'll get back to the grow for a while.


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## collective gardener (Apr 18, 2011)

Looks like we're going to switch the entire grow to a modified DWC system. We're going with a system quite similar to the UnderCurrent sydtem...but home built. The performance of Godzilla in the DWC bucket was too good to idnore. Not to mention, it requires less attention than all the soiless plants. The bud size is almost double the soiless and the growth rate is quite a bit faster. We're finding that the amount of time required to manage the grow using soiless is just too much for the 2 of us to handle. It was fine until the trimming and bug fighting began. All future clones are going into DWC buckets in groups of 8-10 all tied into a central res. Each bucket has its own air stone and water circulates from the res, through the 10 buckets, and back to the res. All readings are taken from the res. Water and nutes are added to the res. The buckets will stray in place and when plants are moved from veg to bloom, the plant will be removed from the bucket and taken to the bucket in the other room. The air stone will come with it, as the stone is usually tangled in the root mass. 

We're hoping this will cut down on our time, as well as improve yield. The added benefit is not having to deal with all of the soil. We also noticed that our DWC plant was barely affected by the spider mites. The plant was just so strong, it was able to fight them off on its own.

On spider mites, the predators have taken control of the room. There is no new signs of infestation in the room. We'll continue to add predators, but I'm calling this a success.


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## AndyK (Apr 18, 2011)

Nice, will the entire system run off a compressor or will each have its own small air pump?


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## AndyK (Apr 18, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Well, the contacting doctors and therapy centers was a bust. "Patient confidentality" was the phrase of the day. Thank you all for the input. I'll get back to the grow for a while.


 Maybe instead of asking for patient names give doctors your information to pass onto patients.


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## incognegro999 (Apr 18, 2011)

AndyK said:


> Maybe instead of asking for patient names give doctors your information to pass onto patients.


Or for security sake a third party not involved with the growing part, maybe a friend or family member who wouldnt mind being the contact person.


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## CallmeTex (Apr 18, 2011)

Are you thinking of Doing a Screen or some netting over the new DWC system? Glad to hear the predators are panning out!


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## collective gardener (Apr 18, 2011)

AndyK said:


> Nice, will the entire system run off a compressor or will each have its own small air pump?


I'm thinking of treating each group of 10 buckets as an independant system. A 100 liter air pump would service the 10 plants plus the resevoir. We would run 6 systems in the bloom room. Each 10 bucket system will be under 2 - 1000 watt HPS lights. If there were a pathogen problem, it would be contained to just 10 plants. We would still runn a perpetual harvest, with 12 clones being taken every 10 days. The 2 weakest clones will be discarded and the other 10 will go into mesh baskets in a DWC unit under the T-5 light. There, they will be topped and grow for about 10 days. Then, they will be transplanted into the buckets in the veg room. They should be small enough that 1 - 1000 watt MH will handle the bulk of the veg growth for each batch of 10 plants. Since we have 6 - 1000 watt MH's, we should be good on keeping up with the bloom room.


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## collective gardener (Apr 18, 2011)

CallmeTex said:


> Are you thinking of Doing a Screen or some netting over the new DWC system? Glad to hear the predators are panning out!


I've run SCROG before with good results. But, with the larger plants that we grow, I prefer to just top once and LST each plant. We tie down the branches to the edge of the bucket lid to get the plant wide and short. We aslo remove quite a bit of the fan leaves week 3 of bloom to get the light down into the plant. The results so far has been solid dense buds 24" down into the canopy. I like to move my plants around quite a bit to maximize the light. I can't do this with a screen. If we were growing 500 or more plants in the same area, I'd probably run a SCROG settup. For 20 years that was the kind of plant density I grew. Now that we do this legal, med thing, I'm having to adapt to different growing styles using fewr but larger plants. I plan to dedicate a couple lights on this new settup to Kitty's style of bare vertical bulb growing (baverb). I believe it to be the wave of the future for us limmited plant med growers.


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## incognegro999 (Apr 18, 2011)

Are you going to build it completly yourself or buy pre fabbed kits? Sounds like a shit ton of work but if it makes life easier sweet. Prolly less KIA'S from helper D as well


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## mellokitty (Apr 18, 2011)

lol, sounds all too familiar.... very excited to see yours in action (10 bucket group? que? i probably won't 'get' it til i see it, i'm visual like that....)


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 18, 2011)

cant believe this shit! the trio pack of a 1000 preds is 47$ and 25$ to ship to my state WTF!!! and 10,000 thrip preds are 49$ and 25$ to ship 
that is stupid prices


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 18, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> lol, sounds all too familiar.... very excited to see yours in action (10 bucket group? que? i probably won't 'get' it til i see it, i'm visual like that....)


That's the whole premise behind the "deep current" systems (I think that's what they're called). All of the buckets are set up in-line with a recirculating pump moving solution from a reservoir through all of the buckets using 2-3" pvc pipe. It provides super oxygenated water that's always moving. If I recall, the guy who came up with the system got the idea when walking by a river and observed a trees' roots gently moving in the stream...

Edit: Undercurrent, should have seen that from CGs' post.


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## mellokitty (Apr 18, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> That's the whole premise behind the "deep current" systems (I think that's what they're called). All of the buckets are set up in-line with a recirculating pump moving solution from a reservoir through all of the buckets using 2-3" pvc pipe. It provides super oxygenated water that's always moving. If I recall, the guy who came up with the system got the idea when walking by a river and observed a trees' roots gently moving in the stream...
> 
> Edit: Undercurrent, should have seen that from CGs' post.


 i am intimately acquainted with diy undercurrent dwc..... all too intimately. *bleck*. (<--bad associative taste in mouth, nothing to do with the system itself but the people involved) .... and from back in the pre-med days too: "well, i need that many 3inch y's and sink drains because.... duh....."
we had 3 ginormous pumps running the whole room, which drew from and drained back to the same series of tanks..... (which letmetellya, catastrophic failure is called that for a *reason*.)


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## xebeche (Apr 18, 2011)

This is a great discussion, I've been reading up on mite control for months and was curious how well those mite predators actually work, what conditions they work best in, etc. So I'm very interested in following along here, and thanks for sharing the info and your experiences.


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## docrock (Apr 18, 2011)

High Times had an article about a similar system last fall, can't remember exactly when. Buckets connected to a small res. with a float valve that was connected to a large res. that was regulated by the float valve in the small res. A swamp cooler float valve worked for me. My copy of the system added a small, very small pump to move water from one bucket to the others, I used a small aquarium pump. I figured I didn't need to move the water quickly, just enough to keep a uniform PH. I also added a ball valve between the small res. and the growing buckets to shut of the flow when I changed water. Rather than putting the buckets in line I made a small manifold out of pvc. Made it easier to add or delete buckets if necessary. To this I attached a dead end hose with a ball valve to attach a pump to either fill or empty the buckets, but replacing water was more simple just pouring it into the small res. after everything necessary was added and PH checked. As the large res. only had a small line going to the small res. water dumped into the small res. got to the grow buckets quicker due to the larger size of hose interconnecting them. I also had a small aquarium airstone in each bucket. For a stone cold or was that cold stoned beginner trying all three, HID, LED, and inductive types of lights, it worked, quite well I thought, but having nothing to compare it with thats just my opinion.


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## collective gardener (Apr 18, 2011)

We'll build the system ourselves...it's way too easy not to. The only real modification from the original Under Current is that we'll be using smaller and flexable hose between the buckets. I need the ability to move the buckets around a bit...pet peeve of mine. I believe that the air stone with large enough pump adds more than enough oxygen to the roots. My current DWC test buckets just have this and the growth is nothing short of explosive. The main reason for connecting 10 buckets to a common res is to add some nutrient solution buffer capacity and to make solution changes and adjustments easily done at a common location for every 10 buckets. Also, if an air stone should fail, the circulating water would provide areated water to the plant regardless. I'm not even sure that I'll go with the second res hooked up to the float valve to automatically add water. First off, it will take up precious room. Also, I believe it is important to force ourselves to have to go and check everything everyday. I don't mind having to be at the grow everyday...I just don't want Helper D to have to spend 3+ hrs/day just draining buckets, mixing solution, and watering. Not to mention transplanting and soil disposal time. I also have to admit that over the years, my most prolific grows have been hydroponic.I started this grow soiless because I wanted the reliability while we sorted out the rest of the room's systems. Now that we're there. I'm ready to crank it up a notch. My hat's off to the Under Current designers for designing a DWC system that allows movable buckets (with our modification), a centralized solution tank, and doesn't rely 100% on each air stone functioning perfectly.

The changover will take place over the next few months. We have plants in all stages of growth right now.


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## collective gardener (Apr 18, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> cant believe this shit! the trio pack of a 1000 preds is 47$ and 25$ to ship to my state WTF!!! and 10,000 thrip preds are 49$ and 25$ to ship
> that is stupid prices


 
I would atay away from the trio pack. As I pointed out ina previous post, one of the 3 actually eats the eggs of the other 2. I believe that company is called Tip Top Bio. Contact Rincon Vitova in Ventura, Ca (dont have contact info in front of me). If your RH is under 60%, I would get the Califonicus for your spider mites. They don't eat as much or as fast as the other one that starts with a P, but their survival and breeding rate will be much better. I believe they run about $25 for 1000, or $100 for 5000. If your RH is in the 40% area, you may want the Califonicus/Oxidentalis blend. The prices are about the same. The Oxidentalis does well in as low as 20% RH.

If you're using Lacewing larvae for thrips, keep in mind that they will eat any and all larvae. So, pest identification is important. The Lacewing larvae only live around 3 weeks, so you can use them first and then cut loose the others after 3 weeks. 

I can't say enough about how pleased I am with these little guys. The folks at Rincon Vitova are also extremely helpful and interested in 'medicinal herb" gardens. Just make sure you folow all instructions as far as the last time you sprayed and with what. It would be a shame to buy the little fuckers and have them die upon contact with your plants.


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 18, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I would atay away from the trio pack. As I pointed out ina previous post, one of the 3 actually eats the eggs of the other 2. I believe that company is called Tip Top Bio. Contact Rincon Vitova in Ventura, Ca (dont have contact info in front of me). If your RH is under 60%, I would get the Califonicus for your spider mites. They don't eat as much or as fast as the other one that starts with a P, but their survival and breeding rate will be much better. I believe they run about $25 for 1000, or $100 for 5000. If your RH is in the 40% area, you may want the Califonicus/Oxidentalis blend. The prices are about the same. The Oxidentalis does well in as low as 20% RH.
> 
> If you're using Lacewing larvae for thrips, keep in mind that they will eat any and all larvae. So, pest identification is important. The Lacewing larvae only live around 3 weeks, so you can use them first and then cut loose the others after 3 weeks.
> 
> I can't say enough about how pleased I am with these little guys. The folks at Rincon Vitova are also extremely helpful and interested in 'medicinal herb" gardens. Just make sure you folow all instructions as far as the last time you sprayed and with what. It would be a shame to buy the little fuckers and have them die upon contact with your plants.


I think il order outside the grow shop they only offer trio and at 47 to 49$ and the californacus would match my RH perfect! plus they are the tip top bio brand.
Il look them up online, thanks so much!! as I sit back and look at how much greef these critters have given me a stupid movie poped in my mind, lol starship troopers
and the battle of the bugs!! time to nuke them bastards.


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## Sr. Verde (Apr 19, 2011)

hows it feel to maintain an ecosystem of 10,000+ bugs every day CG?  

Are you wearing like a beekeeper getup or something?


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## collective gardener (Apr 19, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> hows it feel to maintain an ecosystem of 10,000+ bugs every day CG?
> 
> Are you wearing like a beekeeper getup or something?


LOL...I wish I could see the little bastards. We cut loose 5000 more today. Helper D sorted through the ground corn cob that they ship in to actually see some. They are sooooo small. I had a few webs form on some bud tops today. Tomorrow it's back to the bug lab for some Lacewing larvae. At least I can see those guys go to work. We'll cut loose the larvae on the 5 tops that had webs. We're hoping that the original batch has started to breed some. That's when we should really start seeing some mite death. The Califonicus female (they're 75% female) lays 3 eggs/day. When you figure we should have around 7500 females x 3/day x a 20 day life span....it totals out to 450,000 predators in 20 days. They, _they_ start breeding! In the end, I _will_ win this war. It's just a matter of how much damage we sustain in the process. 

Fortunately, about 75% of my bloom room will be harvested over the next 3 weeks. Hopefully, by then we will have regained control. I'd be lying if I said there's not a part of me that wants to just go wholesale chemical warfare on these guys. Everyday, Helper D has to talk me down. We've invested alot of time and $$$ into these predators. I'll give them some time to work their magic. In the meantime, we'll keep adding them every week until we know for sure the enemy is in retreat.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> LOL...I wish I could see the little bastards. We cut loose 5000 more today. Helper D sorted through the ground corn cob that they ship in to actually see some. They are sooooo small. I had a few webs form on some bud tops today. Tomorrow it's back to the bug lab for some Lacewing larvae. At least I can see those guys go to work. We'll cut loose the larvae on the 5 tops that had webs. We're hoping that the original batch has started to breed some. That's when we should really start seeing some mite death. The Califonicus female (they're 75% female) lays 3 eggs/day. When you figure we should have around 7500 females x 3/day x a 20 day life span....it totals out to 450,000 predators in 20 days. They, _they_ start breeding! In the end, I _will_ win this war. It's just a matter of how much damage we sustain in the process.
> 
> Fortunately, about 75% of my bloom room will be harvested over the next 3 weeks. Hopefully, by then we will have regained control. I'd be lying if I said there's not a part of me that wants to just go wholesale chemical warfare on these guys. Everyday, Helper D has to talk me down. We've invested alot of time and $$$ into these predators. I'll give them some time to work their magic. In the meantime, we'll keep adding them every week until we know for sure the enemy is in retreat.


If you treat your plants with Azamax as they enter the bloom room with both a spray and root drench the plants will have systemic resistance to mites.


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## SCCA (Apr 20, 2011)

Thank god for Helper D! we going to be starting our own bio control program in the next few weeks, as soon as i can find a local source that doesn't try to sell me the triple threat or P. persimilis. you inspired me to really look into something iv been thinking about for a long time. we are even redesigning the landscape at a few of the gardens i maintain to allow us to use beneficials in the veggie gardens and a vineyard. Keep up fighting the good fight! and HAPPY 420!!!!!!


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## TheLastWood (Apr 20, 2011)

You should play some barry white to help the predetors reproduce faster

And then play some disturbed to help them kill faster.


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## mowgly (Apr 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> We'll build the system ourselves...it's way too easy not to. The only real modification from the original Under Current is that we'll be using smaller and flexable hose between the buckets. I need the ability to move the buckets around a bit...pet peeve of mine. I believe that the air stone with large enough pump adds more than enough oxygen to the roots. My current DWC test buckets just have this and the growth is nothing short of explosive. The main reason for connecting 10 buckets to a common res is to add some nutrient solution buffer capacity and to make solution changes and adjustments easily done at a common location for every 10 buckets. Also, if an air stone should fail, the circulating water would provide areated water to the plant regardless. I'm not even sure that I'll go with the second res hooked up to the float valve to automatically add water. First off, it will take up precious room. Also, I believe it is important to force ourselves to have to go and check everything everyday. I don't mind having to be at the grow everyday...I just don't want Helper D to have to spend 3+ hrs/day just draining buckets, mixing solution, and watering. Not to mention transplanting and soil disposal time. I also have to admit that over the years, my most prolific grows have been hydroponic.I started this grow soiless because I wanted the reliability while we sorted out the rest of the room's systems. Now that we're there. I'm ready to crank it up a notch. My hat's off to the Under Current designers for designing a DWC system that allows movable buckets (with our modification), a centralized solution tank, and doesn't rely 100% on each air stone functioning perfectly.
> 
> The changover will take place over the next few months. We have plants in all stages of growth right now.


hi mate if u have 5 minutes wud u please have a look at my post ?
basically how to get 200 onces per crop 
wuld like the input of proper growers 
thx
peace


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## mowgly (Apr 20, 2011)

mowgly said:


> hi mate if u have 5 minutes wud u please have a look at my post ?
> basically how to get 200 onces per crop
> wuld like the input of proper growers
> thx
> peace


sorry forgot to ad the link

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/426461-what-do-u-need-get.html#post5619606


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## collective gardener (Apr 20, 2011)

Good day at the grow. How can I put this? Hmmmm. Let's say this morning there was quite a bit of cured meds there. This afternoon, there wasn't.


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## docrock (Apr 20, 2011)

Are you planning on connecting the buckets in line? If so that is a royal pain when you want to move buckets around. I ran all buckets to a central manifold. That allows you to move, add or remove buckets individually and not have to worry about the others. I just used pvc with a series of nipples, put hose's and plugs on the un used ones, and caps on both ends. A hose off of one of the unused nipples made it easy to drain or pump the system for weekly water change. Any progress on the light test?


collective gardener said:


> We'll build the system ourselves...it's way too easy not to. The only real modification from the original Under Current is that we'll be using smaller and flexable hose between the buckets. I need the ability to move the buckets around a bit...pet peeve of mine. I believe that the air stone with large enough pump adds more than enough oxygen to the roots. My current DWC test buckets just have this and the growth is nothing short of explosive. The main reason for connecting 10 buckets to a common res is to add some nutrient solution buffer capacity and to make solution changes and adjustments easily done at a common location for every 10 buckets. Also, if an air stone should fail, the circulating water would provide areated water to the plant regardless. I'm not even sure that I'll go with the second res hooked up to the float valve to automatically add water. First off, it will take up precious room. Also, I believe it is important to force ourselves to have to go and check everything everyday. I don't mind having to be at the grow everyday...I just don't want Helper D to have to spend 3+ hrs/day just draining buckets, mixing solution, and watering. Not to mention transplanting and soil disposal time. I also have to admit that over the years, my most prolific grows have been hydroponic.I started this grow soiless because I wanted the reliability while we sorted out the rest of the room's systems. Now that we're there. I'm ready to crank it up a notch. My hat's off to the Under Current designers for designing a DWC system that allows movable buckets (with our modification), a centralized solution tank, and doesn't rely 100% on each air stone functioning perfectly.
> 
> The changover will take place over the next few months. We have plants in all stages of growth right now.


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Apr 21, 2011)

Was wondering about the lights as well....but I can see you're in the bunker throwing grenades in the grow room...LOL


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## bryon209 (Apr 22, 2011)

20000 i dont think so or atleast your lights and plants dont walk the walk that youve been talkin i see like five lights and a fukin ladder where are the real pics?


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 22, 2011)

bryon209 said:


> 20000 i dont think so or atleast your lights and plants dont walk the walk that youve been talkin i see like five lights and a fukin ladder where are the real pics?


who the hell are you? and what you implying?


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## drgreentm (Apr 22, 2011)

bryon209 said:


> 20000 i dont think so or atleast your lights and plants dont walk the walk that youve been talkin i see like five lights and a fukin ladder where are the real pics?


 you my friend are a complete douche bag its posts like this that make me want to just stop signing on to this site. if you dont have the patience to go through all 88 pages and find the more "recent" photos dont post period. here is a pic from page 30 of his flower room and i dont know if you ever learned how to count but i can count 10 1000 watt bulbs burning. did you really think the title meant all in flower lol i can tell right now you dont know shit about growing. 

hey CG you should see about getting this post removed this dude sucks, bringing meds to sick patients hell we are really lucky you take the time to post the pics you do and give the info you do. true ass clowns like this drive good experienced peeps like you out the door.


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## drgreentm (Apr 22, 2011)

sorry for jacking the pic too but i been subbed since this was 1 page long, that pic speaks 1000 words those ladies look amazing.


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## incognegro999 (Apr 22, 2011)

Please no feeding the trolls haha.


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## mellokitty (Apr 22, 2011)

ok here's your billygoat now smeg off back under whichever bridge you crawled out from under....


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## NDO (Apr 22, 2011)

bryon209 said:


> 20000 i dont think so or atleast your lights and plants dont walk the walk that youve been talkin i see like five lights and a fukin ladder where are the real pics?


Go back, read the entire journal, remove your head from your ass, and fuck off....Hey CG I noticed you said you guys cleared a bunch of meds, any luck on finding those sick and needy patients you were looking for?


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## collective gardener (Apr 22, 2011)

bryon209 said:


> 20000 i dont think so or atleast your lights and plants dont walk the walk that youve been talkin i see like five lights and a fukin ladder where are the real pics?


Wow. Unfortunately, I cannot get every light in one pic. And, you're correct. I lied. I have less than 20K. Here's the rundown:

Bloom Room: 12 - 1k lights, and 1 600 watt light. The original 10 + 2 more added a couple weeks ago. I'll be sure to take a pic for you.
Veg room Table: 2 - 1k lights in Adjust a Wing reflectors. Plenty of pics of those.
Veg Room Floor: 4 1k lights in Blockbuster air cooled reflectors. Plenty of pics of those, too.
Veg Room Shelf: 4 Bulb 4' T-5 for cuts recently rooted (220 watts)
Veg Room Shelf: 4' POS Flouro for rooting clones. (110 watts)

18,930 watts. I guess the thread title should have read "18,930 Watt Medical Grow Op Construction". When I started the thread, we had just finished the framing. At that time, we only had 2000 watts. We weren't quite sure exactly how big we were going to go. I deeply apologize for misleading you. Also, the pic of the ladder was clearly in poor taste. In the future, Helper D and I will endeavor to be more accurate in our posts. Thank you very much for pointing our our mistakes. It's people like yourself that push us to be better growers and better humans.


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 22, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Wow. Unfortunately, I cannot get every light in one pic. And, you're correct. I lied. I have less than 20K. Here's the rundown:
> 
> Bloom Room: 12 - 1k lights, and 1 600 watt light. The original 10 + 2 more added a couple weeks ago. I'll be sure to take a pic for you.
> Veg room Table: 2 - 1k lights in Adjust a Wing reflectors. Plenty of pics of those.
> ...


well said! CG you and helper D are doing a great job!


----------



## collective gardener (Apr 22, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> sorry for jacking the pic too but i been subbed since this was 1 page long, that pic speaks 1000 words those ladies look amazing.


Thanks for digging up the pic. BTW, without that "fukin ladder" I couldn't have gotten that angle. I aapreciate everyone standing up for the grow. Although, Kitty's pic is giving me the creeps. Fortunately for us, that was only the second negative post on this whole thread. I think we've all done good, here. The other was some BS about California. I glanced at some of the guy's posts. He's kind of on a negative trip all around. This can be such a great place. Why do people feel the need to come in here and get all shitty? Lack of vaginal contact is my first guess....seems a little penned up. Maybe the white count is getting too high. Oh well.

NDO, I still haven't found more needy folks to lay some meds on. We do have a few older folks who we help out. Fixed income and scared to go to a dispensary. Alot of elderly people still have the mind set that they'll get into trouble. This couple just started smoking a few months ago. She has MS, and he was a severe alcoholic who had to stop drinking before his liver went. Since she spends so much time on the couch, the weed helps her make that time more enjoyable. Now she can really get into watching movies and such. As far as I'm concerned, that's medicinal. Big deal if it doesn't help her physical ailments. There is such thing as quality of your mental health. The guy smokes to get a head change without drinking. If he didn't smoke, he'd drink and that will kill him. Medicinal? I think so. 

We're still willing to give away meds to anyone who really needs them and can't afford it. I wish I could just run an ad. My next plan is to locate some cancer and AIDS patients and have them spread the word to people they meet in treatment. As always, if anyone here has any ideas, or would like to reach out and contact people on out behalf, please feel free. We will deliver the paperwork and meds free of charge anywhere in Los Angeles or Ventura Counties. 

Thanks to everyone here for keeping this thread on a positive note. I've been slow on pics lately due to trimming and the mite war. Once we get one under control, I'll post some more pics and start the Plasma light test. I feel kinda bad for the guy who rushed me the lights. Just know that I WILL do this test. Hell, I want to see it as much as anybody. If we're going to switch to these plasma's, I need to do it before summer time. Otherwise, we will need to add some very expensive air conditioning. 

You guys are great Humans. Let's not let the small people get under our skin.


----------



## hellraizer30 (Apr 22, 2011)

hey CG on the free meds issue keep in mind rome wasnt conquered in one day! you will lock it down just going 
to take time.  best of luck with the trimming/mite war!


----------



## Bonzi Lighthouse (Apr 22, 2011)

Plasma? what happened to the Induction lights?


----------



## hellraizer30 (Apr 22, 2011)

Bonzi Lighthouse said:


> Plasma? what happened to the Induction lights?


im pretty sure thats what he ment to say at least I hope so


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (Apr 22, 2011)

Yeah I'm counting on him to validate those lights.


----------



## hellraizer30 (Apr 22, 2011)

Bonzi Lighthouse said:


> Yeah I'm counting on him to validate those lights.


............. me to  ............


----------



## Beansly (Apr 22, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Wow. Unfortunately, I cannot get every light in one pic. And, you're correct. I lied. I have less than 20K. Here's the rundown:
> 
> Bloom Room: 12 - 1k lights, and 1 600 watt light. The original 10 + 2 more added a couple weeks ago. I'll be sure to take a pic for you.
> Veg room Table: 2 - 1k lights in Adjust a Wing reflectors. Plenty of pics of those.
> ...


Your a pretty classy guy. 
+rep for not enough classy people on the internet anymore.


----------



## TheLastWood (Apr 22, 2011)

Hey cg. U should suggest helper d signs up. It would be kool to talk to him too. Lucky dude, wish I could learn by being shown rather than scouring the web and weeding thru the false info.


----------



## collective gardener (Apr 22, 2011)

Bonzi Lighthouse said:


> Plasma? what happened to the Induction lights?


Oops. Induction. Sorry. See what good meds do?


----------



## drgreentm (Apr 22, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Thanks for digging up the pic. BTW, without that "fukin ladder" I couldn't have gotten that angle. I aapreciate everyone standing up for the grow. Although, Kitty's pic is giving me the creeps. Fortunately for us, that was only the second negative post on this whole thread. I think we've all done good, here. The other was some BS about California. I glanced at some of the guy's posts. He's kind of on a negative trip all around. This can be such a great place. Why do people feel the need to come in here and get all shitty? Lack of vaginal contact is my first guess....seems a little penned up. Maybe the white count is getting too high. Oh well.


 hahaha ya kitty's pic is a little creepy but im not sure whats creepier a freaky goat or a dude signed up for a mj site rambling about a ladder when there is great pics of luscious mj plants but anyway you are dead on about keeping this all positive thats really the only way to have it. i really cant wait to see the new rdwc setup its going to be great sure you are going to get great results looking foreword to it. keep up the good work my friend.


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## mellokitty (Apr 22, 2011)

this thread is so overbrimming with class, i feel like i should be breaking out the opera gloves and dinner rings before i post creepy mutie anti-trolling pics in here....


----------



## collective gardener (Apr 22, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> this thread is so overbrimming with class, i feel like i should be breaking out the opera gloves and dinner rings before i post creepy mutie anti-trolling pics in here....


 
Too funny. Kitty, anything you want to post is always welcome here. Does that goat really keep the trolls away? While we're at it...what exactly _is_ a troll? Really...I don't know. This thread is the first time I've posted anywhere.


----------



## hellraizer30 (Apr 22, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Too funny. Kitty, anything you want to post is always welcome here. Does that goat really keep the trolls away? While we're at it...what exactly _is_ a troll? Really...I don't know. This thread is the first time I've posted anywhere.


a troll is a forum stalker that never contributes positive only negitive feed back! they hide behind the net knowing if they were face to face they would get
knocked the F out. in my mind there a waist of skin! and there depleating valuable air!


----------



## mellokitty (Apr 22, 2011)

^my thoughts exactly.^
i guess they are the epitome of lonely; negative attention is still attention? dollars to doughnuts they become a DSM-IV designated mental disorder in the near future.... if a&e isn't running "trolls" between "intervention" and "hoarders" by, say, 2013, i'd be very surprised....

this whole thread was pretty amusing/informative vis-a-vis trolls but this post literally almost made me spit tea out my nose lmao-ing:
https://www.rollitup.org/toke-n-talk/422181-how-deal-trolls.html#post5541405


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## collective gardener (Apr 22, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Hey cg. U should suggest helper d signs up. It would be kool to talk to him too. Lucky dude, wish I could learn by being shown rather than scouring the web and weeding thru the false info.


 
Helper D doesn't do computers. Some light texting is as far as he'll go. The D also has a pretty gnarly temper. If he read that stuff posted today, his reply would get him kicked off the site for good.

I didn't originally hire him to work at the grow. I hired him into my other business prior to starting the grow op. He ended up being so dependable and hard working, that I began thinking about bringing him into the new op. Well, he's worked out great. It helps that he loves pot and loves learing to grow. Prior to this grow, he had zero experience. Now, after just a few months, all I do is take clones and advise him a little on managing the canopy shape. He does everything else. Early on, I let him totally crowd some plants so he could see first hand the result. After seeing those leggy, massive node spaced pieces of shit, he is now very attentive to light reaching the plants. 5 of those plants were so bad that we threw them away. 

So, Helper D will not be posting. But, if you have questions for him, post em all at once and I'll drag him out of the lights and into the office to answer them. Just don't piss him off.


----------



## Beansly (Apr 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Helper D doesn't do computers. Some light texting is as far as he'll go. The D also has a pretty gnarly temper. If he read that stuff posted today, his reply would get him kicked off the site for good.


Yeah, I can say I would have handled that differently...lol

PS
Helper D is a fag.
Haha
j/k


----------



## TheLastWood (Apr 23, 2011)

Lol I have a pretty bad temper too lol. its funny cuz I'm also pretty laid back, but sometimes I just have no patience for stupidity. Lol my bosses always tell me I have a mean temper for someone my age. I've also always worked in industrys where its pretty much ok to smoke all day. I'm noticing my temper is directly related to my stash.

D sounds kool is why I was askin, sounds like we got a lot in common. I still work 50-80 hr weeks too.

You guys are doin amazin work man. How's the new strains comin along?


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## collective gardener (Apr 23, 2011)

Beansly said:


> Yeah, I can say I would have handled that differently...lol
> 
> PS
> Helper D is a fag.
> ...


Prodding Helper D is not really cool. If he reads this, I'm the one who has to deal with the attitude for at least half a day. It would be much better for me if you were to prod in person. This way, he will instantly attack (and he does...I've seen it), beat or get beat (seen both, as well...to be fair he got beat by 2 guys), and then we can move on with our day. He reads this and all he thinks about all day is where you are and how can he find you. He'll also describe to me in horrific detail exactly what he's going to do to you. Most of this is sexual in nature, but it doesn't sound fun for you. Helper D claims that the guy on top isn't gay...he's just horny. Basically, the guy is a fucking animal. Please don't rile him up. His wife tells my wife that he needs sex...hard pounding, sweat drenching sex, for 2-3 hours every single night and a quick 3o min hell pump in the AM. Fucking animal.


----------



## Wolverine97 (Apr 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Prodding Helper D is not really cool. If he reads this, I'm the one who has to deal with the attitude for at least half a day. It would be much better for me if you were to prod in person. This way, he will instantly attack (and he does...I've seen it), beat or get beat (seen both, as well...to be fair he got beat by 2 guys), and then we can move on with our day. He reads this and all he thinks about all day is where you are and how can he find you. He'll also describe to me in horrific detail exactly what he's going to do to you. Most of this is sexual in nature, but it doesn't sound fun for you. Helper D claims that the guy on top isn't gay...he's just horny. Basically, the guy is a fucking animal. Please don't rile him up. His wife tells my wife that he needs sex...hard pounding, sweat drenching sex, for 2-3 hours every single night and a quick 3o min hell pump in the AM. Fucking animal.


Incredible. Yes.


----------



## taint (Apr 23, 2011)

Helper D sounds sexy as all hell.
Sorry I heard the werd troll being bandied about and thought mk was calling me.


----------



## mellokitty (Apr 23, 2011)

BAAA HAHAHA does helper d know how big his following is yet? (and yes. sexy as all hell.) sorry, kinda loling at the thought of you -ing whilst listening to him rant too....

oh mr. taint, ever my knight in shining armour....


----------



## incognegro999 (Apr 23, 2011)

2-3 Hours every night? haha that man is in the wrong profession, he should be being mentored by Ron Jeremy.


----------



## hellraizer30 (Apr 23, 2011)

wow this shits getting deep


----------



## Wolverine97 (Apr 23, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> wow this shits getting deep


That's what D said...


----------



## taint (Apr 23, 2011)

Does D do reacharounds or is he a complete and utter pig about it?



I'll stop now and thank you for being a good sport.


----------



## collective gardener (Apr 23, 2011)

incognegro999 said:


> 2-3 Hours every night? haha that man is in the wrong profession, he should be being mentored by Ron Jeremy.


That is sooooooo funny. Ron Jeremy is Helper D's idol!...Big, fat, hairy, ugly mo fo that gets endless action. Seriously, not a day goes by that D doesn't mention Ron Jeremy..."Can you imagine what Ron would do to her?"..."Could you imagine what Ron would do to HIM?"..."I wonder if Ron uses Rogaine on his entire body"..."I wonder if there's a special person on the set just to wipe the sweat from Ron's pelt"...and on and on. 

I'll be sure to let him read all this. He'll get a kick out of everything but the fag comment. 

Taint, I wouldn't count on the reach-around. But, he's suprised me before.

Commercial J just got back today from "up north" and brought home 2 Tahoe OG small mothers and some cured samples of the same. One of the mothers was for us. He saw the grow and says they're not huge yielding, but the quality is fantastic. I mean, truly grade AAA shit. I'm not suprised easily by great pot, but this shit is NICE. The flavor is just what great Kush should be, and the high is truly without a ceiling. My third bong hit in an hour was one too many. I had to just lay back and listen to some tunes for an hour to just get back to a functioning state. I took clones right away and put the mother into bloom. We like to see what they will do in bloom so we know the best way to train the clones. Plus, I want a couple ozs of finished product ASAP. When our members get a hold of this, they're gonna go ballistic.

Happy Easter to all for tomorrow. Love your families and friends, and be good humans.


----------



## TheLastWood (Apr 23, 2011)

Hey gardener that's awesome bout the new gear. I just harvested my jack herer ex-mother. Beautiful rock hard nuggies. I am truly blown away by the ceramic metal halide. I got some scissor hash on a hose clamp and that's some good shit.

Since ur havin such good results in the coco, and since I use coco, I was wondering about your feeding regime. What ppm do u start feeding seedling n clones at and how much do u progress weekly? Do u feed every watering? 

Also, have you ever heard of ppl feeding with just bloom ferts and micro? I guess a lot of ppl do it, but what's ur take on it? 

N tell D to keep up the good work too!


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## drgreentm (Apr 23, 2011)

hey CG i got a ? for you if you dont mind my friend,
i have just recently acquired a single bubba kush clone and she is now vegged into a nice mommy. now i have read and heard that this strain is not a fantastic yielder, what did you think about the yields on yours? 
i grow sog so mine are not normally vegged for a long period of time but i can veg them longer than my others to get a hopefully significant yield. any thoughts on a minimum veg time?
i did flower one small one (2 week veg) and she produced a little under a oz dry. all i know is it was some very good product.
thanks for any input and happy easter.


----------



## Sr. Verde (Apr 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> not suprised easily by great pot, but this shit is NICE. The flavor is just what great Kush should be, and the high is truly without a ceiling. My third bong hit in an hour was one too many. I had to just lay back and listen to some tunes for an hour to just get back to a functioning state. I took clones right away and put the mother into bloom. We like to see what they will do in bloom so we know the best way to train the clones. Plus, I want a couple ozs of finished product ASAP. When our members get a hold of this, they're gonna go ballistic.



I want some of thattt shit LOL! ive got 5 strains in a jar here i'm about to bust one out and volcano the shit out of it...


Heres a TD update for you CG its been a few weeeks since you've seen um!


PS: if your reading this, what are your thoughts on springtails? I have some of them, I hear they are a sign of good things in the soil but idk I dont like bugs


----------



## GanjaneticallyBlessed (Apr 23, 2011)

How do I get into the medicinal game? I wan't to bank on a 20,000 watt grow.


----------



## collective gardener (Apr 24, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Hey gardener that's awesome bout the new gear. I just harvested my jack herer ex-mother. Beautiful rock hard nuggies. I am truly blown away by the ceramic metal halide. I got some scissor hash on a hose clamp and that's some good shit.
> 
> Since ur havin such good results in the coco, and since I use coco, I was wondering about your feeding regime. What ppm do u start feeding seedling n clones at and how much do u progress weekly? Do u feed every watering?
> 
> ...


We use Cutting Edge 3 part nutes as directed. In Veg we feed 1000ppm. The 6" pot small plants get the same 1000, but get plain RO water every other day. In Boom we feed 1300ppm. At week 5 we start a taper down on the ppm's ending at 0ppm 10 days prior to harvest. We feed every day with a flush around every 10 days or if there is ANY claw showing. That's it! We keep the feeding extremely simple. We do add "Plant Amp" (one of three additives by Cutting Edge) to our 3 part mix. It is Sulfur and Magnesium. I do this because I strongly believe that most nutes lack sufficient sulfur. Also, adding just 2mg/gallon puts the PH right at 5.2. Just a squirt of PH UP gets us between 5.8 and 6.2, and, mosts importantly, keeps it there. When I use PH down, it tends to drift back up a little in a few hours.

We're still working out this coco deal. I kind of miss my old Sunshine #4. It just doesn't hold enough water for the size plants we grow. 

When Helper D wets out the coco blocks, he does so with 300ppm CalMag. This pre loads the coco with cal mag and prevents the coco from robbing it from the plants. Without doing this coco grown plants often show cal and/or mag problems. We watch for these very close. Just last week, we added 200ppm Cal Mag to the feeding for 3 days due to some signs of Cal problems. This usually occurs in veg. By bloom time, the coc is fully loaded with cal and mag and is less likely to rob them from the plants.


----------



## collective gardener (Apr 24, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> hey CG i got a ? for you if you dont mind my friend,
> i have just recently acquired a single bubba kush clone and she is now vegged into a nice mommy. now i have read and heard that this strain is not a fantastic yielder, what did you think about the yields on yours?
> i grow sog so mine are not normally vegged for a long period of time but i can veg them longer than my others to get a hopefully significant yield. any thoughts on a minimum veg time?
> i did flower one small one (2 week veg) and she produced a little under a oz dry. all i know is it was some very good product.
> thanks for any input and happy easter.


I'm pretty honest about what I know and what I don't know. I know this strain very well. All of my commercial growing friends grow it using many different styles. We grow huge 8 - 12 oz plants to keep our numbers down. It is not the best way to maximize the yield from this strain, but we're slaves to our plant count.

Here's how Commercial J does it. The Bubbas are topped one time. After topping, they are vegged to about 18" tall. The spacing is one plant/sq ft. His plants average about 1.5 ozs/each. This is with each 600 watt light covering a 4 x 4 area. He uses MagnumXXl reflectors. While this is less light than I would use, his product is perfect. I have found that too much light on the Bubba tops will drastically reduce the yield of the tops. 

I've always figured 1.5oz/sq ft to be average yield. I don't go by "grams per watt". I figure that the room should have around 50+ watts/sq ft, and then look at my yield per sq ft. So, the Bubba is an average yielder. It's not going to do what a Blue Dream will do. But, the Bubba seems to always be in very high demand.


----------



## collective gardener (Apr 24, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> I want some of thattt shit LOL! ive got 5 strains in a jar here i'm about to bust one out and volcano the shit out of it...
> 
> 
> Heres a TD update for you CG its been a few weeeks since you've seen um!
> ...


I'm with you. Bugs not good. LOL


----------



## collective gardener (Apr 24, 2011)

GanjaneticallyBlessed said:


> How do I get into the medicinal game? I wan't to bank on a 20,000 watt grow.


$100,000, a good lawyer, 10+ years commercial growing experience, and enough contacts to assure you can move your meds. You're in!


----------



## mellokitty (Apr 24, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> I want some of thattt shit LOL! ive got 5 strains in a jar here i'm about to bust one out and volcano the shit out of it...
> 
> 
> Heres a TD update for you CG its been a few weeeks since you've seen um!
> ...


you got springtails?? i'm jearous!!
but then again, this is coming from a chick who's known folks who grew "bioponics" by feeding the *goldfish in their res a specific diet.... i love crawlies and shit (literally). omg please nobody quote that ever.


----------



## drgreentm (Apr 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I'm pretty honest about what I know and what I don't know. I know this strain very well. All of my commercial growing friends grow it using many different styles. We grow huge 8 - 12 oz plants to keep our numbers down. It is not the best way to maximize the yield from this strain, but we're slaves to our plant count.
> 
> Here's how Commercial J does it. The Bubbas are topped one time. After topping, they are vegged to about 18" tall. The spacing is one plant/sq ft. His plants average about 1.5 ozs/each. This is with each 600 watt light covering a 4 x 4 area. He uses MagnumXXl reflectors. While this is less light than I would use, his product is perfect. I have found that too much light on the Bubba tops will drastically reduce the yield of the tops.
> 
> I've always figured 1.5oz/sq ft to be average yield. I don't go by "grams per watt". I figure that the room should have around 50+ watts/sq ft, and then look at my yield per sq ft. So, the Bubba is an average yielder. It's not going to do what a Blue Dream will do. But, the Bubba seems to always be in very high demand.


 man thanks a bunch this is exactly what i was looking for and i am like you i dont do grams per watt i always want per square foot numbers and i give my plants 1 square foot to grow in, from the products stand point it was great (smelling, tasting etc, etc..) and im very happy to have it in my garden and again thanks a bunch for sharing the knowledge and giving me a heads up.


----------



## dajosh42069 (Apr 24, 2011)

I've got A LOT of catching up to do here....unless you (or someone) wants to give me the skinny on what the CURRENT situation is.


----------



## stickyfingaz89 (Apr 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Wow. Unfortunately, I cannot get every light in one pic. And, you're correct. I lied. I have less than 20K. Here's the rundown:
> 
> Bloom Room: 12 - 1k lights, and 1 600 watt light. The original 10 + 2 more added a couple weeks ago. I'll be sure to take a pic for you.
> Veg room Table: 2 - 1k lights in Adjust a Wing reflectors. Plenty of pics of those.
> ...


Dont forget the power of the Fans there matey!! plus all other equipment!! bet once thats worked out you will ht the 20Kwh mark!!


----------



## stickyfingaz89 (Apr 24, 2011)

What a grow, Hats off to you,, How i would love to pull that off... Now although you are legaly allowed to grow. This might be a private type thing but is the electricity bill paid for or bypassed??? beacuse the amount of money that was spent to set up and the 18,000 odd watts used perpetualy == alot more than the buds worth you are pulling???


----------



## Wolverine97 (Apr 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> We use Cutting Edge 3 part nutes as directed. In Veg we feed 1000ppm. The 6" pot small plants get the same 1000, but get plain RO water every other day. In Boom we feed 1300ppm. At week 5 we start a taper down on the ppm's ending at 0ppm 10 days prior to harvest. We feed every day with a flush around every 10 days or if there is ANY claw showing. That's it! We keep the feeding extremely simple. We do add "Plant Amp" (one of three additives by Cutting Edge) to our 3 part mix. It is Sulfur and Magnesium. I do this because I strongly believe that most nutes lack sufficient sulfur. Also, adding just 2mg/gallon puts the PH right at 5.2. Just a squirt of PH UP gets us between 5.8 and 6.2, and, mosts importantly, keeps it there. When I use PH down, it tends to drift back up a little in a few hours.
> 
> We're still working out this coco deal. I kind of miss my old Sunshine #4. It just doesn't hold enough water for the size plants we grow.
> 
> When Helper D wets out the coco blocks, he does so with 300ppm CalMag. This pre loads the coco with cal mag and prevents the coco from robbing it from the plants. Without doing this coco grown plants often show cal and/or mag problems. We watch for these very close. Just last week, we added 200ppm Cal Mag to the feeding for 3 days due to some signs of Cal problems. This usually occurs in veg. By bloom time, the coc is fully loaded with cal and mag and is less likely to rob them from the plants.


I agree completely about the sulfur being in short supply in most nutrients. It makes huge difference in the smells and flavor of the finished product.


----------



## taint (Apr 24, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> you got springtails?? i'm jearous!!
> but then again, this is coming from a chick who's known folks who grew "bioponics" by feeding the *goldfish in their res a specific diet.... i love crawlies and shit (literally). omg please nobody quote that ever.


 Huh....................................


----------



## mellokitty (Apr 24, 2011)

...*soundly beating taint about the face and body with the stalk-butt off dwc-godzillla*...

i meant more like this:



mellokitty said:


> i love crawlies and shit (literally).


there. the power of reclamation. *humf*


----------



## dajosh42069 (Apr 24, 2011)

::waits to be filled in on what the current status of the grow is::

I mean, I could start from the beginning (I DID read the first 10 pages or so...) and spend a week trying to get caught up  or I can just get the cliff notes.


----------



## Mattysville (Apr 24, 2011)

dude you gotta go back and read the whole thing. if you're trying to get information and learn a think or two the cliff notes version, like when you were in high school, is not sufficient. The nuance is in the details. You must read the book to get the details, right? Do yourself a favor and start at page 1 and don't stop reading, except to smoke a bowl, til you meet us back here at page 93. You will find the information much more useful that way.


----------



## dajosh42069 (Apr 24, 2011)

Mattysville said:


> dude you gotta go back and read the whole thing. if you're trying to get information and learn a think or two the cliff notes version, like when you were in high school, is not sufficient. The nuance is in the details. You must read the book to get the details, right? Do yourself a favor and start at page 1 and don't stop reading, except to smoke a bowl, til you meet us back here at page 93. You will find the information much more useful that way.


I'm not trying to read this so I can replicate or duplicate it...just looking to be entertained. I know your just trying to help and all, but I know how to go about learning something if I desire to do so.  Thanks tho.


----------



## collective gardener (Apr 25, 2011)

dajosh42069 said:


> ::waits to be filled in on what the current status of the grow is::
> 
> I mean, I could start from the beginning (I DID read the first 10 pages or so...) and spend a week trying to get caught up  or I can just get the cliff notes.


Cliff Notes:

Bunch of Bubba Kush
Spider Mite war
Growing in coco...slowly switching to RDWC
2 people growing: myself and Helper D
Helper D will fuck anything that moves

Your request strikes me as a little selfish. You don't want to spend the time to read the entire thread, but want someone else to spend the time to type the "cliff notes" for you? So that you can be entertained? Other than the info above, what cliff notes did you have in mind? Not that I'll provide them...just trying to figure this out.

Dude, I took the fucking time to write the shit, take and upload the pics, AND do the grow in the first place to have something to write about. I think you can spend a couple hours catching up if you want to see the "status" of the grow.


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## anonymuss (Apr 25, 2011)

REaD ThEE BORinG THREAd LAAAZeEy COCKSKUcKER!!1


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 25, 2011)

guess it was a matter of time before the trolls got in here!!


----------



## collective gardener (Apr 25, 2011)

stickyfingaz89 said:


> What a grow, Hats off to you,, How i would love to pull that off... Now although you are legaly allowed to grow. This might be a private type thing but is the electricity bill paid for or bypassed??? beacuse the amount of money that was spent to set up and the 18,000 odd watts used perpetualy == alot more than the buds worth you are pulling???


 
I pay for my electricity. While legal med grow ops in California must be "not for profit", they are not "lose money". I'm not sure how you're doing your math, but "alot more than the buds worth you are pulling" is absurd. Here's some fun facts: my electricity cost works out to $12/oz of bud produced...my loan payment for the startup capitol works out to $20/oz of buds being produced...my lease about $8/oz. 

Anyone who steals electricity to save $12/oz is a complete idiot. My attorney alone has represented no less than 8 people who have gotten busted for stealing electricity. There was also a grow op in our warehouse complex that didn't pay their rent for 3 months. When the marshalls came to serve eviction, they found the op. Busted. 

I love hearing these stories. Sometimes I call my lawyer just to hear a stupid grower tale. It helps me sleep at night. Most people who get busted are doing stupid shit. Don't do stupid shit and you won't get busted. I've never understood the thought process of a grower who exposes himself by commiting additional crimes for a few bucks. These grows are just like any other business...there are operating costs. If you don't pay those costs, you won't be in business for long. 

Bottom line, Sticky, the setup and electrical costs are cheap. It's the labor that will kill ya. But, with a legal med op, the labor costs is the only money we're allowed to make. The prices we charge our members for quantity X is simply the sum of all costs associated with producing quantity X. I assure you, those costs are considerably less than the current black market or storefront dispensary prices. Our members get one hell of a deal because we stay 100% compliant with California law. Once our loan is paid off, the prices will go down approx $20/oz.


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## collective gardener (Apr 25, 2011)

anonymuss said:


> REaD ThEE BORinG THREAd LAAAZeEy COCKSKUcKER!!1


I understand that people can be frustrating. But, I beg of everyone, please no name calling. We've done so good here keeping this thread above that. Thanks.


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## dajosh42069 (Apr 25, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Cliff Notes:
> 
> Bunch of Bubba Kush
> Spider Mite war
> ...


I don't feel like reading 100+ pages of conversation. If it was 100 pages of pure updates, fine. But some threads become chat rooms essentially and I don't feel like reading 90 pages of "Hey dude, great job" for 15 pages of pictures and updates.
Just wanted to know what you were growing, period. I have no idea where 1 grow stops and the others start, but it strikes me as a little fucked up that you all would take this kind of reaction to me asking for a simple update on what the "CURRENT" status is. But as I said, it really wasn't worth all this...

All the same, have a good grow and good luck to you and your patients.
Unsubbed.



EDIT: Ok, my reaction was NOT based on YOUR response to me, it was to theirs, so thank you for asking them to stop. All the same, i'm not trying to "Learn" from you, and i'm not trying to "Do something similar". So I think after the reaction from a simple question, i'm still not sticking around. Again, good luck.

OP, if you got the original version of this post, plz reread, my frustration isn't with you, but with others who resort to name calling like a 12 year old.


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## TheLastWood (Apr 25, 2011)

This is one of the most info packed, least boring, threads there is. But I've been heer since pg 1. I'm also here to learn evereything I can. I've read tons of long ass threads. The longest is riddlemes 171 pg thread " bals to the walls".

But it isn't my job to tell anyone what to read. However this thread is definately worth the read.

What I don't like is that dumbass makes a thread on how to grow 200 oz, someone posts this link so that he can "READ IT"&#8230; But no he justs comes in reads not 1 pg and asks his question in here then posts his link.

What a fucking tafbang. More ppl should read my sig.


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## incognegro999 (Apr 25, 2011)

[video=youtube;5hfYJsQAhl0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0[/video]


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## jyermum (Apr 25, 2011)

CG thanks for the breakdown on costs. You power per ounce shows how messed up our "baseline" system for residential power is in SO Cal. The reason I don't grow indoors any more is that with 2 1000 watt bulbs my bill at the house goes from 150 to 650 per month. In summer it went up another $150 for the AC. After factoring in my time, CO2, nutes and the ever dropping price of good nug it just wasn't worth it for me. The machine that you guys are throwing down is killer. 

Keep up the good work


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## GanjaneticallyBlessed (Apr 25, 2011)

jyermum said:


> CG thanks for the breakdown on costs. You power per ounce shows how messed up our "baseline" system for residential power is in SO Cal. The reason I don't grow indoors any more is that with 2 1000 watt bulbs my bill at the house goes from 150 to 650 per month. In summer it went up another $150 for the AC. After factoring in my time, CO2, nutes and the ever dropping price of good nug it just wasn't worth it for me. The machine that you guys are throwing down is killer.
> 
> Keep up the good work


Jesus, what does your power company charge per kwh?


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## GanjaneticallyBlessed (Apr 25, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> $100,000, a good lawyer, 10+ years commercial growing experience, and enough contacts to assure you can move your meds. You're in!


I'm not trying to derail the topic but if I could ask the following...


Are there any "legal" fees outside that of a lawyer's, such as the cost of state licenses affiliated with running a medical grow. If so what are these fees?

$100,000 upfront seems like quite a bit for employees/labor, supplies, rent/lease, etc. I read on page 93, you said the electricty is cheap in relation to the ounces you produce, so that's not a "major" expense then?


I believe you said labor is the major expense? I can't wait till medical marijuana comes my way. I got connections to some cheap mexican labor, and some of the cheapest electric in the USA.


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## jyermum (Apr 25, 2011)

> Jesus, what does your power company charge per kwh?


I don't have a bill with me so Im not sure exactly but the baseline system sucks. They say that a house of my size should take x power... Unfortunately my home was built in the early 50's and maybe had a lightbulb in each room and possibly a radio and a TV. Im not sure if they keep that baseline or not but now with TV's hanging on the walls in every room, microwave and all kinds of stuff plugged in to charge I could not touch a light switch and I would be over the base. Everything over the base to 150% they charge 4x that rate, everything over 200% is like 10x the base rate and over 250% is WAY to much. I hit the 200% every month now without an inside grow. 

when I drive past the Sempra energy building downtown I always throw a finger up to make sure they know that there number 1


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## djfloms (Apr 25, 2011)

my power company tried doing that to me once... the meter outside my house was bad, within a week i had a new one and ever since then my bill is NEVER over $200



jyermum said:


> CG thanks for the breakdown on costs. You power per ounce shows how messed up our "baseline" system for residential power is in SO Cal. The reason I don't grow indoors any more is that with 2 1000 watt bulbs my bill at the house goes from 150 to 650 per month. In summer it went up another $150 for the AC. After factoring in my time, CO2, nutes and the ever dropping price of good nug it just wasn't worth it for me. The machine that you guys are throwing down is killer.
> 
> Keep up the good work


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## docrock (Apr 25, 2011)

You don't have to feel bad about the guy who rushed you the lights. I understand he is a truly wonderful and patient person. Of course that would of sounded better if he hadn't just wrote that about himself.... I do know they work, but who's gonna believe me, I'm trying to sell the suckers. Web site will be out soon!!!!! I also want to hear more about your new system. I tried a small one, 3 buckets, and it seemed easy for a beginner. As noted in previous posts I made a couple of adjustments to improve things on my end.

As for your "apology" note to the negative person. Do you really think he knows what you meant???


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## docrock (Apr 25, 2011)

He just asked, either someone will help him or not. No need to jump all over him.


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## docrock (Apr 25, 2011)

Some people use the term "plasma" for induction lights. I believe the term is too broad and applies to flouresents also. The main difference in the two types being one has some sort of internal filimants to charge the "plasma" and with the other it is done with no internal penetration of the light/gas tube. Below is a factory supplied definition.

1. Supplied energy is transferred into the lamp by coupling the induction from an AC electric - magnetic field, creating an electron avalanche of the filled gas chamber to produce a plasma state.
2. When the excited atoms under plasma status return to the ground state UV radiation is emitted.
3. The phosphor on the inner side of the bulb wall will get excited by this UV radiation producing visible light.


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## docrock (Apr 25, 2011)

My dear lady. You are sooooo right.


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## collective gardener (Apr 25, 2011)

jyermum said:


> CG thanks for the breakdown on costs. You power per ounce shows how messed up our "baseline" system for residential power is in SO Cal. The reason I don't grow indoors any more is that with 2 1000 watt bulbs my bill at the house goes from 150 to 650 per month. In summer it went up another $150 for the AC. After factoring in my time, CO2, nutes and the ever dropping price of good nug it just wasn't worth it for me. The machine that you guys are throwing down is killer.
> 
> Keep up the good work


I'm with So Cal Edison for my power. I have never heard of a power bill like yours. In the last 20 years, my bill for each 12/12 1000 watt light has been around $50/month. This is in warehouses and residences. Something seems wrong.


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## jyermum (Apr 25, 2011)

Not sure why but it super sucks down here with SDG&E. My house is 2bd 1100 sq ft but it also has a 650 sq ft studio granny flat/guest house out back and I think the base is just off of the 1100. They put a new smart meter on about 6 months ago and the bill is still out of control so it wasnt a bad meter. 

For now I will be happy with my 6 in the greenhouse until I do a move up in a few years.


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## b.g. (Apr 25, 2011)

What is the highest bill that you have seen with a 20 light grow in the past?I am running a similar setup but my bill fluctuates around so much..Are you seeing a drastic overall difference in price from aircooled to non-aircooled hoods?Also about to introduce the predators for my spidermite problems,,,,are u still 100% happy with the outcome from that?


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## collective gardener (Apr 26, 2011)

GanjaneticallyBlessed said:


> I'm not trying to derail the topic but if I could ask the following...
> 
> 
> Are there any "legal" fees outside that of a lawyer's, such as the cost of state licenses affiliated with running a medical grow. If so what are these fees?
> ...


Labor...in particular, MY labor is the primary cost. Labor is the only legal way to recieve money from a legal med op. Get it? It's not a matter of finding cheap mexican labor (which u don't want), it's a matter of getting paid for your time. I don't make any more money when weed is sold. My hourly rate is what it is. We estimate what our per/oz cost will be...and make a small adjustment end year. The adjustment is in the form of a small refund to our members...either in a check or meds. I hope you see what I am saying here.


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## collective gardener (Apr 26, 2011)

b.g. said:


> What is the highest bill that you have seen with a 20 light grow in the past?I am running a similar setup but my bill fluctuates around so much..Are you seeing a drastic overall difference in price from aircooled to non-aircooled hoods?Also about to introduce the predators for my spidermite problems,,,,are u still 100% happy with the outcome from that?


 
20 - 1000's would run about $1,500/month max. This would be with bair coooled hoods. They are the most efficient dollar wise. Otherwise, you're running big A/C gear to keep things cool. BUT, I'm a huge fan of bare vertical bulbs. That would probably be close to a $2,000/month bill due to increased A/C.

I'm on the fence with the predators. At first they seemed to be working....now I'm seeing new webs. I'll give my final opinion in a couple weeks.


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## TheLastWood (Apr 26, 2011)

GanjaneticallyBlessed said:


> I'm not trying to derail the topic but if I could ask the following...
> 
> 
> Are there any "legal" fees outside that of a lawyer's, such as the cost of state licenses affiliated with running a medical grow. If so what are these fees?
> ...


Great, just what we need, more corporate involvment and monopolizing of the mmj industry.

These always sound like great ideas to greedy ppl


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## collective gardener (Apr 26, 2011)

Finally, some pics:


The bloom room. The 2 lights on the right are the new 1000's. The original plan was for all of that space to be a walkway. Greed got the better of us and started adding lights. Helper D wants us to add 2 more where the wing is. I think we'll be puting in another electrical panel to facilitate this and a couple more air conditioners. Who needs walking space. 


There's the NY Diesel and Godzilla in the DWC bucket. I like the diesel look. Helper D treated it with Bushmaster to prevent it from getting 10' tall. Godzilla is looking pretty good. We didn't top it or train it in any way. For the small amount of space it occupys, it seems like the yield will be pretty good. The average bud size is bigger than the soiless plants, and the growth rate in veg was much faster. It still has a few weeks to go. We want to taste the product prior to commiting 100% to the RDWC idea. I'm sure it will taste just fine. After all, it's the same nutes, just different delivery system. 


Fruits of our labor. Most of these buds are smaller than the average. We first took all of the big buds, then let the lower buds get good light for a few days. The big buds have since been jarred. Once these are done, all of the buds will be tossed in a big salad. Any bud smaller than about 2 bong hits is set aside for personal use, gifts, etc...


You'll see the de-humidifier on the bottom left. We love the climate controlled drying shed. When it gets dry here we have a small humidifier we use.


The first Laughgani to be harvested. I believe we pulled it a little early. I just had to look into those buds to know for sure. We'll let the rest go 10 more days. I have trimmed fan leaves on this plant 3 times. It's totallt needed with this strain. It gets so dense that without trimming, the inside would just me a mass off underdeveloped buds and powdery mildew. This strain is a great example of how aggressive leaf trimming can not only help, but be necessary sometimes. 


Laughgani buds trimmed. I believe 10 more days and they'd be solid purple. These things are a total bitch to trim. I'm picky on how our buds look, and getting that perfect look is very time consuming on this strain. The leaves are just packed tight into the buds. It requires lots of digging the leaves out to cut them. I just wish you guys could smell these things. Without doubt, the most pugent plant I've ever grown. 3 other people were trimming Bubbas, yet all any of us could smell was the Laughgani. I will not be cutting any corners with the cure on this one. It's going to be a while before our members get a taste of these. 


The first of the new all RDWC grow op. These have already been rooted in another tray. The T-5 gets them ready for the 1000 watter. From here they will go into buckets and onto the veg room table.


The Diesel plant. Helper D really did it right with the Bushmaster. He has a real eye for that stuff. He only uses it as a foilar spray, feeding with plain water on application days. I can tell him how tall I want a plant to end up, and he'll hit it within a couple inches. We only use it when it looks like a plant will end up too tall. I know that some folks use it all the time. We were thinking about trying it on a few plants in a side by side. I Dlively11 (RIU member) uses it to make his plants more compact and get more plants in a given area. He has some very impressive pics posted of side by side tests if anyone is interested. 


The veg room floor. The 10 gallon plants will go into bloom in a couple days. The 5 gallon plants first get transplanted into 10's for a week, then go into bloom. All of these plants have already spent several weeks on the veg room table under a Hortilux Daylight Blue. The bulbs seen here are Pulse Start 6.4K. The plantb on the left is a Laughgani that has had its fan leaves trimmed once (hard to believe given how bushy it is). The leaves will be heavily thinned again week 3 of bloom. We are looking to see distinct braches with that thinning. At week 5 most of the remaining fan leaves are removed. We are looking for just buds. This seems to be the only way to fully ripen the buds that are in a mass of leaves. 


The veg room table is really the key to big yield. The Daylight Blue bulbs are not as bright as a Pulse Start, but do a better job at node spacing. Here, we are trying to train the plant out a little, and stack the nodes very tight. Once in a while a plant will get crowded, or spend too much time against the wall. When this happens, we throw the plant away. No plant leaves the table unless it is as perfect as we can get it. This is why I'm a fan of extra large veg rooms. 

Hope you all enjoy. It's nice to get back to the grow. I ventured out into some other threads and just got pissed off. LOL.


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## growmomma (Apr 26, 2011)

I've been sub'd to this thread for a while now, for some reason never commented lol. Great update man  You seem like a genuinely nice guy, and as you know have one helluva set-up! Keep it up, I really enjoy your thread.


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## collective gardener (Apr 26, 2011)

growmomma said:


> I've been sub'd to this thread for a while now, for some reason never commented lol. Great update man  You seem like a genuinely nice guy, and as you know have one helluva set-up! Keep it up, I really enjoy your thread.


 
Thanks for checking in. How do u like your DWC settup?


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## growmomma (Apr 26, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Thanks for checking in. How do u like your DWC settup?


 We love it. My husband just converted it to an under current system. Hope to expand to an 8 bucket soon, moving it to a bigger space.


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## TheLastWood (Apr 27, 2011)

Wow cg. That laughgani is just beautiful... what a great hash plant. 

Speaking of hash, u gonna buy some 30 gallon baggs n make some hockey pucks?


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## BoomerBloomer57 (Apr 27, 2011)

Damn CG.

Just damn,,,,,,,,,,,

Very nicely done.


bb57


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## chief blunts (Apr 27, 2011)

this whole thing is absolutely bonkers, i love all of it! the world needs more people like you cg- helping out those in need and getting paid under the radar....... well thats A+ in my book....

just remember in most states herb may be legal but concentrates are not... just a friendly reminder.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 27, 2011)

chief blunts said:


> this whole thing is absolutely bonkers, i love all of it! the world needs more people like you cg- helping out those in need and getting paid under the radar....... well thats A+ in my book....
> 
> just remember in most states herb may be legal but concentrates are not... just a friendly reminder.


That's not true. The only concentrate that is illegal in CA is BHO and its derivatives. In Michigan they're all legal.


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## Sr. Verde (Apr 27, 2011)

i thought ive heard of dispensaries selling BHO in california??


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## collective gardener (Apr 27, 2011)

growmomma said:


> We love it. My husband just converted it to an under current system. Hope to expand to an 8 bucket soon, moving it to a bigger space.


The system we're building is a ripoff of the UnderCurrent. We're using flexible smaller hoses linking the buckets. I need the ability to move the plants around. Hopefully, this will save us a ton of time watering and draining waste buckets. Any improvement in grow speed or yield will be a bonus.


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## SCCA (Apr 27, 2011)

The garden is looking beautiful CG! i hope those predators do their job. have you considered targeted applications in the places you see webs? i believe thats how they handle them in some dutch greenhouses.




Wolverine97 said:


> That's not true. The only concentrate that is illegal in CA is BHO and its derivatives. In Michigan they're all legal.


im not sure, but i thought BHO was legal if it was processed in a certified laboratory. Supercritical CO2 extractions fall into this same category. i think the law in California is more in regard to the use of dangerous processes and chemical solvents than the actual concentrate itself.


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## collective gardener (Apr 28, 2011)

According to our attorney, California prosecutes Butane extraction with the same zeal as a meth lab. So, that's a big no go. Supercritical CO2 is fine, but the gear is very expensive. It's funny this came up, as today I sent several lbs of sugar trim through the food processor. Personally, we like keef. Nothing makes me as happy as vaporized 120 screen keef. So, I made about a 1/4 oz of that today. I'm not into the oils. We'll probably invest in a small water hash machine. But, I have my reservations. No one around here seems to like hash too much. My wife always needs stuff for her edibles collective, but insists it be 100% organic. So, Helper D tends to 4 organic plants each month for her. We just give her the whole plant. Edibles made with the buds are better, anyways. Honestly, I haven't figured out what we want to do with all this trim.


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## TheLastWood (Apr 28, 2011)

BUBBLE BAGS! BUBBLE BAGS! 

I just used my new bags for the first time today.


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## Ontheball (Apr 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> LOL....why oh crap???
> View attachment 1429267
> Here's my rec
> 
> We could grow over 1000 with all of our members, but we're trying to play it real safe. Problem is, I'm going to have to learn to grow some serious trees. I've always grown SOG, and have little experience with the big girls. We'll be trying several methods. Including: topping and bending to get a plant about 3 feet around and 2-3 feet tall, and growing 5-6 foot plants and using bare bulb side lighting. Over the next few months we'll all find out together whats works best first hand! My goal is 1.5lbs/light. That's a tall order with Bubba and the other high end strains we'll be growing.


that is the most insane sexiest bit of paper ive ever seen in my life ! fuck my country. Fuck sake takes the piss lol i wish i could smoke without dodging a caging >.<


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## NorthernLights#5 (Apr 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 1571648
> The first of the new all RDWC grow op. These have already been rooted in another tray. The T-5 gets them ready for the 1000 watter. From here they will go into buckets and onto the veg room table.


have you thought of using coolers for your RDWC. I know you couldnt do it in flower but atleast for veg as it should help keep the water at a better temp then the tots.


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## collective gardener (Apr 28, 2011)

Ontheball said:


> that is the most insane sexiest bit of paper ive ever seen in my life ! fuck my country. Fuck sake takes the piss lol i wish i could smoke without dodging a caging >.<


Now if we could just convince all cops to see it that way. Some law enforcement do not recognize any rec over the original 6/12 plant limits. They lose in the end. But, it still costs the grower all his crop, legal fees, bail, etc...There are 3 cases currently in my county where the growers are suing the County for the costs of their crop and gear. Our lawyer is the attorney for all three cases, so we hear the progress weekly. IF the county is made to pay for crops they tore out illegally, it would be a HUGE victory for our cause. Police would be far less likely to rip out plants if the County has been forced to pay for them. Anyways, this paper is nice, but no where near what many people think it is.


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## collective gardener (Apr 28, 2011)

We're going to keep all the res's in the main warehouse and run tubing to the bucket sets. Thbis should help keep the water cool, because the warehouse is cooler than the grow rooms. I could install a cooler in each set of 8. But, it would get expensive. I want each set of 8 to be totally isolated from eachother, which wouyld require a cooler for each set of 8. We plan on 12 sets. I thought about some sort of heat exchanger system, where copper coil filled with frozen coolant would be run through each res, cooling the water without mixing water between bucket sets. This would be ideal. However, with enough air delivery, water chillers shouldn't be needed.


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## NorthernLights#5 (Apr 28, 2011)

sorry missied that part that you were putting the res in the warehouse not in the rooms them selves.


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## b.g. (Apr 28, 2011)

I have this same rec from the same doc with 6# instead of 4....I also have a non-profit with other members,,,,anyway i was curious as to what you thought about this???I am hearing that this rec will not hold water in court if something were to happen..I am getting mixed feedback regarding that particular 99 rec..From my understanding is that if you were to operate with just that rec alone that those amounts would be considered rediculous for 1 patient to have...


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## collective gardener (Apr 29, 2011)

b.g. said:


> I have this same rec from the same doc with 6# instead of 4....I also have a non-profit with other members,,,,anyway i was curious as to what you thought about this???I am hearing that this rec will not hold water in court if something were to happen..I am getting mixed feedback regarding that particular 99 rec..From my understanding is that if you were to operate with just that rec alone that those amounts would be considered rediculous for 1 patient to have...


Technically, you would have to prove in court why you need so much meds. The safe way is to have enough members to get your plant count using the standard 6/12 plant limit. So, if you have 48 plants in veg and 48 in bloom, you could get by with 12 members: 4 members veging 12 plants each, and 8 members blooming 6 plants each. This is the safest way to go about it. The big rec just gives you that much more ammo.

We have _more_ than enough members for our grow. I still like to keep it under 99 plants to be ultra safe.


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## collective gardener (Apr 29, 2011)

The first RDWC system is complete. I didn't have the camera today to take pics. I made a big change, and added a top feed component. The water is fed in via a top feed stream, and drains back to the res via a 3/4" hose with tee's to the buckets. It's now a Top Feed Recurculating Deep Water Culture system, or: TFRDWC. LOL. I figure the top fed water cascading through the hydrotons in the basket bucket lid will only add more O2 to the water. I am keeping the water level an inch below the bottom of the basket. This way, if the air pump should fail, the suspended roots will still have access to air. I also placed a second pump in the res, feeding a horizontal PVC pipe 2" above the water line with a dozen small holes facing down, blasting the surface of the water with jets of high pressure water. This adds major air to the res water. And, of course, there's an air stone in each bucket. We're stoked with the design. So much so, that we purchased an 8 light T-5 just to light up these 8 buckets. The plants will then go onto the table, then the floor. Each station has slightly more spacing between the buckets. 

I really want the bloom room buckets to be movable, but it's looking less and less likely. Hopefully, with some trial and error on veg time and training, we can make sure the finished canopy size evenly fills out the area Helper D can always Bush Whack (use Bushmaster) any plants that look to be getting to tall. Wew're figuring 8 plants for every pair of 1000 watt HPS's in the bloom room. This would be slightly more than 2 sq ft per plant. This is much less space than our current plants are using. When we were getting started we had just a few plants, so we wanted them BIG. Now, it's time to carefully calculate finished size. I've always had better yield with more smaller plants, anyways. We'll be throwing away quite a few plants in veg to make sure that when room opens up in bloom, the new DWC plants have a place to go. The transition is going to be a bit of a cluster fuck. But, with a perpetual harvest, as long as the bloom room is always full, you're doing the right thing.


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## TheLastWood (Apr 29, 2011)

I learn so much from reading your posts cg. The top feed is a great idea, by the way did you ever order any of those farm kits?


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## jyermum (Apr 29, 2011)

Good luck in the water CG. Can't wait to see the percentage of yeild increase that you get.


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## collective gardener (Apr 29, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> I learn so much from reading your posts cg. The top feed is a great idea, by the way did you ever order any of those farm kits?


We just kind of made our own. Since I needed a pump for the R in the RDWC system, I just fed the water in the top and out the bottom. I used 3/4" tube for the drainage back to res, and next time I'll use 1". The buckets further away from the res tend to stay about 1" fuller than the buckets near the res. This is why Under Current uses such big pipe. I prefer our settup because the top feed adds some security in case the air pump fails. We can also place barely rooted clones in it and aim the top feed right st the base. Even if the roots are well above the water line, the top feed assures water will hit the roots at all time. 

I'm thinking of using 7 gallon buckets for the bloom room. The mass of roots in Godzilla 5 weeks into bloom displaces about 2 gallons of water. The air stone is now a part of the root mass.


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## HIGHunderAcanopy (Apr 30, 2011)

Alright, so I have been following this thread since the beginning religiously. I think what your doing is great, and in taking care of my partners similar grow (you can call me helper x) I know the troubles and tribulations with mites. What a pain in the ass right? Add thrips into the equation and...well you can imagine my mindset. As with bushmaster, I recently tried using it on a "mystery" strain, which I honestly have no idea about besides it's definitely some kind of kush; and to my amazement it did NOTHING. I upped the quantity from 2 ml per gallon to 4 ml per gallon and it didn't stop vertical growth at all!! I was pissed, but it kind of tickled my fancey to see the ladies take anything I gave to them. Anyways, this post ended up being a lot longer than I had anticipated, but cheers to you my friend. I love what you're doing, and I commend you. I know the work it takes, but I like to think about it as a labor of love. I'll be following the rest of your journey from the shadows...


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## xxEMOxx (Apr 30, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> legit for sure collective. I like your style. Any reason you didn't decide to go hydro? I always thought hydro would be easier in a really large scale.
> 
> Anywho, i thought of a name for your dank purple monster plants.."barney". Great,now i'm going to have that damn i love you, you love me song in my head.



i love you, you love me, we are friends like friends should be! With a hug and a kiss and some love from me to you; won't you say you love me too?!


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## SupaM (Apr 30, 2011)

This is an awesome thread! Thanks for sharing your experiences, as well as, knowledge. 
I've been around, I just wanted to finish reading before posting..lol.
Seriously, All the Best going forward!


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## collective gardener (Apr 30, 2011)

HIGHunderAcanopy said:


> Alright, so I have been following this thread since the beginning religiously. I think what your doing is great, and in taking care of my partners similar grow (you can call me helper x) I know the troubles and tribulations with mites. What a pain in the ass right? Add thrips into the equation and...well you can imagine my mindset. As with bushmaster, I recently tried using it on a "mystery" strain, which I honestly have no idea about besides it's definitely some kind of kush; and to my amazement it did NOTHING. I upped the quantity from 2 ml per gallon to 4 ml per gallon and it didn't stop vertical growth at all!! I was pissed, but it kind of tickled my fancey to see the ladies take anything I gave to them. Anyways, this post ended up being a lot longer than I had anticipated, but cheers to you my friend. I love what you're doing, and I commend you. I know the work it takes, but I like to think about it as a labor of love. I'll be following the rest of your journey from the shadows...


Helper D uses the Bush Master as a foilar feed, per the instructions. Since we grow in pure coco, the label advises against applying to the roots. Helper D sprays the leaves and feeds that day with pure water. Then 3 days later he does it again. Hope that helps.


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## collective gardener (Apr 30, 2011)

xxEMOxx said:


> i love you, you love me, we are friends like friends should be! With a hug and a kiss and some love from me to you; won't you say you love me too?!


 
Now quite sure what to say to that. Except I do watch Justified (your avitar is from that show, right?)


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 30, 2011)

Thats just creepy lol


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 30, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Now quite sure what to say to that. Except I do watch Justified (your avitar is from that show, right?)


He means like "Barney the Purple Dinosaur".


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## mellokitty (Apr 30, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> He means like "Barney the Purple Dinosaur".





hellraizer30 said:


> Thats just creepy lol


^now *that's more like it....^


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## collective gardener (May 1, 2011)

Had our first complaint from a member today. He seriously says the meds are "just too strong"...and wondered if we had something "not so powerful". I took it for a huge compliment, but he was serious. I layed some of the Chgem Dog on him that slipped into a Bubba batch. I haven't tried it, but Helper D says it's "less head change" than the Bubba. Hopefully he'll like it. I've been thinking of growing a couple weaker, but higher yielding plants, anyway. Looks like we'll do that for sure. Blue Dream is the top contender. We're holding off on the Dr Atomic beans until we see what the Laughgani does in the 10 gallon pots. The sample Laughgani was dry enough to smoke yesterday and we sampled. It was everything as promised. Even without the full cure, yet, it smells and tastes wonderful. The quality of the high is the best attribute: totally relaxing, great pain relief, zero anxiety, and touches down on a goose down pillow. The yield on an 18" plant in a 5 gallon pot was 2.5 ozs...and that was harvested early. We have 5 more at about 7 weeks that Helper D is trying some Purple Max and Gravity on. He's using Gravity on one, Purple Max on another, both on one, and nothing on the other 2. 

We have several Laughganis in various blooming stages in 10 gallon pots. If the yield is right, and letting them go 70 days does what Commercial J says it does, we won't be bringing in new strains for a while. I think I mentioned before that a dispensary Commercial J works with wants _all_ of our Laughgani overage...no consignment BS. Commercial J turned them onto the Laughgani, but stopped growing it because of all the extra work involved with this strain: 3 massive leaf removal events during the course of its grow and way too much time to trim. Also, our 1000 watt lights do a much better job on this ultra bushy strain than Commercial J's 600's....even though he's got almost 50 of them now! The 600's just don't have the penetration needed to grow either large plants or extremely bushy plants over about 12". Even with the 1000's, we have to be diligent on the leaf thinning or the middle of the plant becomes a mass of twisted spindly crap. This is one chore I do myself. Helper D is way too busy with the daily activities to be spending an hour/plant carefully removing select leaves. I basically trim it so that you can see the individual branches, rather than just a big round bush. This seems to let enough light in to maintain healthy developement deep in the plant. It needs to be done about every 2 weeks in veg. Then on week 3 of bloom, basically all of the fan leaves go. I know I've mentioned this before, but it makes a couple good points: 1. growing pot can be alot more work than just watering. 2. on some strains aggressive leaf removal is not only beneficial, but totally necessary.


----------



## Sr. Verde (May 1, 2011)

Collective.... What do you think of some good Maui Wowie?

It's one of my _favorite_ "not too over-powering" strains. Great for just relaxing, makes the body high feels like laying out on the beach in the perfect amount of sun...


You can vape more than a few volcano bags and the high never gets anxious.

I don't get anxious with bud, but I can understand how some intense highs can lead to such things for people.


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## b.g. (May 1, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Had our first complaint from a member today. He seriously says the meds are "just too strong"...and wondered if we had something "not so powerful". I took it for a huge compliment, but he was serious. I layed some of the Chgem Dog on him that slipped into a Bubba batch. I haven't tried it, but Helper D says it's "less head change" than the Bubba. Hopefully he'll like it. I've been thinking of growing a couple weaker, but higher yielding plants, anyway. Looks like we'll do that for sure. Blue Dream is the top contender. We're holding off on the Dr Atomic beans until we see what the Laughgani does in the 10 gallon pots. The sample Laughgani was dry enough to smoke yesterday and we sampled. It was everything as promised. Even without the full cure, yet, it smells and tastes wonderful. The quality of the high is the best attribute: totally relaxing, great pain relief, zero anxiety, and touches down on a goose down pillow. The yield on an 18" plant in a 5 gallon pot was 2.5 ozs...and that was harvested early. We have 5 more at about 7 weeks that Helper D is trying some Purple Max and Gravity on. He's using Gravity on one, Purple Max on another, both on one, and nothing on the other 2.
> 
> We have several Laughganis in various blooming stages in 10 gallon pots. If the yield is right, and letting them go 70 days does what Commercial J says it does, we won't be bringing in new strains for a while. I think I mentioned before that a dispensary Commercial J works with wants _all_ of our Laughgani overage...no consignment BS. Commercial J turned them onto the Laughgani, but stopped growing it because of all the extra work involved with this strain: 3 massive leaf removal events during the course of its grow and way too much time to trim. Also, our 1000 watt lights do a much better job on this ultra bushy strain than Commercial J's 600's....even though he's got almost 50 of them now! The 600's just don't have the penetration needed to grow either large plants or extremely bushy plants over about 12". Even with the 1000's, we have to be diligent on the leaf thinning or the middle of the plant becomes a mass of twisted spindly crap. This is one chore I do myself. Helper D is way too busy with the daily activities to be spending an hour/plant carefully removing select leaves. I basically trim it so that you can see the individual branches, rather than just a big round bush. This seems to let enough light in to maintain healthy developement deep in the plant. It needs to be done about every 2 weeks in veg. Then on week 3 of bloom, basically all of the fan leaves go. I know I've mentioned this before, but it makes a couple good points: 1. growing pot can be alot more work than just watering. 2. on some strains aggressive leaf removal is not only beneficial, but totally necessary.


 R u thinning out the bubbas big time as well....What is the best yield u have been seeing with those giant bubbas....Im about to introduce the predetors this week,,any updates with the outcome of those things??


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## collective gardener (May 2, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> Collective.... What do you think of some good Maui Wowie?
> 
> It's one of my _favorite_ "not too over-powering" strains. Great for just relaxing, makes the body high feels like laying out on the beach in the perfect amount of sun...
> 
> ...


Never tried the Wowie. How's the yield? If we're going to grow a "less powerful" plant or 2, it might as well be a good yielder, eh?


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## collective gardener (May 2, 2011)

b.g. said:


> R u thinning out the bubbas big time as well....What is the best yield u have been seeing with those giant bubbas....Im about to introduce the predetors this week,,any updates with the outcome of those things??


 
Bout 12 ozs was the best so far. However, 2 of it was on the small side. Not larf, but just a little small. We'll be growing the plants a little smaller in the future, concentrating on getting 100% top grade buds from each plant.

On the Bubbas, we only thin the leaves week 3 of bloom. We leave most of the outside leaves alone, just thinning the inside large leaves to allow light in to the center of the plant. At the same time, we remove all of the small lower growth.

I have mixed feelings on these predators. Maybe it would be way worse without them, but I'm spraying in the veg room with Azamax and Neem. If we don't see a real mite reduction in the bloom room within a week, my previous enthusiasm for the predators is going to start fading.


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## Wolverine97 (May 2, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Bout 12 ozs was the best so far. However, 2 of it was on the small side. Not larf, but just a little small. We'll be growing the plants a little smaller in the future, concentrating on getting 100% top grade buds from each plant.
> 
> On the Bubbas, we only thin the leaves week 3 of bloom. We leave most of the outside leaves alone, just thinning the inside large leaves to allow light in to the center of the plant. At the same time, we remove all of the small lower growth.
> 
> I have mixed feelings on these predators. Maybe it would be way worse without them, but I'm spraying in the veg room with Azamax and Neem. If we don't see a real mite reduction in the bloom room within a week, my previous enthusiasm for the predators is going to start fading.


You won't need the neem, Azamax is just the concentrated goodness from the neem plant. Just the active stuff that you're after...


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## collective gardener (May 2, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> You won't need the neem, Azamax is just the concentrated goodness from the neem plant. Just the active stuff that you're after...


Interesting. I did not know that. In that case, we'll hit em with the Doktor Doom once a month or so just to keep em on their little toes. 

On another note, I purchased everything needed for another TFRDWC 8 bucket system today: air pump, circ pump, fittings, air stones, buckets, tubing, buckets, res, lids, Hydrotons...the whole works. The total cost: $300.00. I didn't think it would be that much, but it will be worth it. The labor savings alone will pay for the changeover in a couple months. Servicing our first 8 bucket system today took less than 4 minutes. It took Helper D 15 minutes to water and drain the waste on 8 10 gallon potted plants. The time spent cleaning the ststem between cycles will be far less than the time spent transplanting and disposing of soil. The growth rate of our first system is noting short of explosive.


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## mazand1982 (May 3, 2011)

BiteSizeFreak said:


> If I owned hell and Cali, I'd rent out Cali and live in hell. lol  Seriously though, can't stand the place. Aside from the pretty girls and good weed laws I find nothing else redeeming about the state. I usually don't bring it up for obvious reasons lol
> 
> Anyway, I'll just kinda piece out here for a little while or this whole thread will get jacked by people mad that I don't like Cali
> 
> ...


haha ive been alll over USA and abroad outside of the US and id never even think about living anywhere else than orange county southern california, good weed laws and gorgeous girls everywhere u look, asians, hispanics, white, black, everything, absolutely no where compares to southern cali...case closed


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## Wolverine97 (May 3, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Interesting. I did not know that. In that case, we'll hit em with the Doktor Doom once a month or so just to keep em on their little toes.
> 
> On another note, I purchased everything needed for another TFRDWC 8 bucket system today: air pump, circ pump, fittings, air stones, buckets, tubing, buckets, res, lids, Hydrotons...the whole works. The total cost: $300.00. I didn't think it would be that much, but it will be worth it. The labor savings alone will pay for the changeover in a couple months. Servicing our first 8 bucket system today took less than 4 minutes. It took Helper D 15 minutes to water and drain the waste on 8 10 gallon potted plants. The time spent cleaning the ststem between cycles will be far less than the time spent transplanting and disposing of soil. The growth rate of our first system is noting short of explosive.


Awesome. I'm interested to see how you do with the Under Current setup, I'm considering giving it a go but I've always been a strictly soil grower...


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## medicine21 (May 3, 2011)

lots of undercurrent threads on thcfarmer. All agree - a chiller is a MUST.


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## rosecitypapa (May 3, 2011)

Hey CG,

You'll have problems with that RDWC setup with using just 3/4" drain lines. The roots will start clogging the lines later in bloom. You could get by with adding another 3/4" drain but you prolly still won't be happy with it. It just will not provide enough flow for proper mixing of nutes for pH adjustments. Screens and strainers can work but will need constant maintenance. 

The 3/4" is doable but inadequate for maximum efficiency of the system.

The undercurrent is a good design in that they use flat-sided buckets to enable the 2" uniseals fittings. But as you know, the limitation of fixed plant sites, especially in your situation isn't ideal. 

btw, do you have any close up's pics of your plants in bloom? (closer that you've provided thus far)


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## NDO (May 3, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Awesome. I'm interested to see how you do with the Under Current setup, I'm considering giving it a go but I've always been a strictly soil grower...


Agreed, I'm really looking forward to seeing this system in action as well...Here's to a room filled with Godzillas! Hopefully Helper D doesn't get eaten alive....Any pictures of the new TFRDWC set-up yet CG?


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## TheLastWood (May 3, 2011)

Undercurrent setups are so sweet. I would love to run one but that's just way too much water consumption for me. 

Maybe if I ever move, I will buy a house where I can have running water to my room. None of my spare bedrooms have a bathroom. Only the master bdrm.

Can't wait to see your results.


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## SupaM (May 3, 2011)

mazand1982 said:


> haha ive been alll over USA and abroad outside of the US and id never even think about living anywhere else than orange county southern california, good weed laws and gorgeous girls everywhere u look, asians, hispanics, white, black, everything, absolutely no where compares to southern cali...case closed


Preciate the 'inside view'.... I can't wait to see that place one day Brotha!!! ATB!!


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## collective gardener (May 3, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> Hey CG,
> 
> You'll have problems with that RDWC setup with using just 3/4" drain lines. The roots will start clogging the lines later in bloom. You could get by with adding another 3/4" drain but you prolly still won't be happy with it. It just will not provide enough flow for proper mixing of nutes for pH adjustments. Screens and strainers can work but will need constant maintenance.
> 
> ...


I agree on the root clogging problem. As far as mixing nutes, all are pre mixed and PH'd before being pumped into the system. PH adjustments are done by accurately measuring the amount of PH down needed for every tenth of a PH point...so that's not a problem. We do that now when batching a tub full of nutes. Helper D knows that it takes X amount of PH up to bring said tub to the desired PH range. BUT, the roots will be a problem...maybe. I'm using very low flow on the top feed to each bucket...just enough to keep mixing the nutrients throughout the system. I would prefer more flow to take advantage to the hyper oxygenated water from the res. If I just give up on my mobile plant need, options galore appear. I need to think about this for a while. If I use stationary plants, I'll probably go to a 12" PVC pipe in a modified high flow NFT system. I'm on the fence. Thanks though for confirming what has been nagging at me since I started this.


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## docrock (May 3, 2011)

I'm using 3/4 hose and fitting with a screen over the outlet inside the bucket, I've had no prolems with root clog. Have I just been lucky or do the screens work?


rosecitypapa said:


> Hey CG,
> 
> You'll have problems with that RDWC setup with using just 3/4" drain lines. The roots will start clogging the lines later in bloom. You could get by with adding another 3/4" drain but you prolly still won't be happy with it. It just will not provide enough flow for proper mixing of nutes for pH adjustments. Screens and strainers can work but will need constant maintenance.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sr. Verde (May 3, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Never tried the Wowie. How's the yield? If we're going to grow a "less powerful" plant or 2, it might as well be a good yielder, eh?


I haven't grown it, I believe it is a on-the-lanky-side sativa.. tropical type plant... I don't think the yield is especially massive, but im sure this depends on where your getting your genetics

I find the maui wowie has a sandlewood/ (tasty) rubbery overtones.. 




It's definitely something you should check out. You've mentioned going to dispensaries to try different strains, or at least your assistant... You should keep it at the back of your mind to ask about it if your given a chance 

It's one of my top 5 strains, if I had the space i'd grow it regardless of the size or yield because it's such a unique relaxing comfortable high. I wouldn't mind having a few spare oz's here and there


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## collective gardener (May 4, 2011)

docrock said:


> I'm using 3/4 hose and fitting with a screen over the outlet inside the bucket, I've had no prolems with root clog. Have I just been lucky or do the screens work?


I hope the screens work and I hope you're lucky, too! Given the small amount of water I pump into each bucket, I'm hoping root clog will not be a problem. Fortunately, I'm building an 8 bucket unit at a time. If I do see a problem, it's not like there will be 95 buckets to change over...more like 8, or 16 max. I am leaving 3 plants from the latest clone run in coco for a little light test I'm doing. LOL...which should begin next week. They will be the smallest plants in the grow, but should give us an idea of what the inductive light can do against an LED.


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## collective gardener (May 4, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> I haven't grown it, I believe it is a on-the-lanky-side sativa.. tropical type plant... I don't think the yield is especially massive, but im sure this depends on where your getting your genetics
> 
> I find the maui wowie has a sandlewood/ (tasty) rubbery overtones..
> 
> ...


Well, for now Helper D has his towering NY Diesel to play with for some head stash. For my Head stash, I'm really digging the laughgani. It is just the type of high I enjoy. Until we get everything going in the new systems and the room producing what I know it can, there will be no more new strains except the new Tahoe OG I was given. The Tahoe is time tested by a trusted grower, so it will go into production of at least 8 plants right away. I get lots of OG requests. The Laughgani is by far in the most demand. If it didn't take 10 weeks to finish I would just grow it. It's one of those buds that will get your foot in the door of most dispensarys...even the ones who claim not to be looking for new vendors.


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## Mattysville (May 4, 2011)

I'm working on designing a similar system as well. i'm going to have 3 separate systems with 4 buckets each to maintain a perpetual cycle within my plant limits. i'll also have another one used only for vegging plants and a homemade aerocloner. i've been playing with an idea to prevent clogs on the return lines that i figured out when brewing beer. when brewing beer i used grains to make my malt instead of concentrated malt sugars as most homebrewers do. to get the mash heated correctly i built a system out of a 5 gallon rubbermaid water cooler (gatorade cooler) with a screen suspended about an inch above the bottom of the bucket for the grain to sit on. when it was time to drain the mash to the pot for boiling hops you just opened the valve on the bottom and the hot water darined out with no grains and no clogs. doing something similar on a RDWC would probably work out very nicely. i used a small micron metal mesh screen cut out to the size and shape of the bucket and held it up using bolts with a nut on either side of the screen to make a table that sat on the the bottom of the bucket. the roots would sit on the screen and the return line fittings can be placed below the screen preventing clogs.


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## dog (May 4, 2011)

SHIT got to the end!!! love your Bubba man just hope mine grow as well?? all 3 have poped out of the soil in 36hr, and now under 150w CMH, im hoping to get my 1000watter up and running again, so i have 1600watt's in that 5x5 room.
+REP very cool thread.


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## collective gardener (May 4, 2011)

Mattysville said:


> I'm working on designing a similar system as well. i'm going to have 3 separate systems with 4 buckets each to maintain a perpetual cycle within my plant limits. i'll also have another one used only for vegging plants and a homemade aerocloner. i've been playing with an idea to prevent clogs on the return lines that i figured out when brewing beer. when brewing beer i used grains to make my malt instead of concentrated malt sugars as most homebrewers do. to get the mash heated correctly i built a system out of a 5 gallon rubbermaid water cooler (gatorade cooler) with a screen suspended about an inch above the bottom of the bucket for the grain to sit on. when it was time to drain the mash to the pot for boiling hops you just opened the valve on the bottom and the hot water darined out with no grains and no clogs. doing something similar on a RDWC would probably work out very nicely. i used a small micron metal mesh screen cut out to the size and shape of the bucket and held it up using bolts with a nut on either side of the screen to make a table that sat on the the bottom of the bucket. the roots would sit on the screen and the return line fittings can be placed below the screen preventing clogs.


 
I understand exactly what you are proposing with the screen false bottom. Just keep in mind that roots are persistant and can work their way through the finest of mesh with time. I may try something similar. The real difference between mine and the under current is my low flow volume. I really just want enough flow to facilitate checking PH, TDS, and changing solution at a central location (the res). Also, tying in the buckets with a res gives us that much more solution. I'm not sure what all that volume of flow does for the Undercurrent system. I mean, it looks cool, and all. I can see the additional O2 for the return water falling into the res. But, I wonder what exactly all that flow does. I'm really just looking for the same growth that I got from 1 bucket and an air stone. I just don't want to service 90 individual buckets. At the same time, I'm not a fan of totally connecting everything in the room. 8 plants seems like a nice number. Those will also fit nice under 2 - 1000 watt lights. I'm leaning more and more towards just having a fixed plant location. It would make my life easier. We would just adjust the plant size with veg time and Bushmaster.


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## collective gardener (May 4, 2011)

dog said:


> SHIT got to the end!!! love your Bubba man just hope mine grow as well?? all 3 have poped out of the soil in 36hr, and now under 150w CMH, im hoping to get my 1000watter up and running again, so i have 1600watt's in that 5x5 room.
> +REP very cool thread.


 
Nice work, Dog, blowing through the whole thing. I suppose you saw the boy who wanted the cliff notes.

1600 watts is going to be perfect for that 5x5 room. 64 watts/sq ft is jamming light. Good luck and stick around for the fun.


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## collective gardener (May 4, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> Hey CG,
> 
> You'll have problems with that RDWC setup with using just 3/4" drain lines. The roots will start clogging the lines later in bloom. You could get by with adding another 3/4" drain but you prolly still won't be happy with it. It just will not provide enough flow for proper mixing of nutes for pH adjustments. Screens and strainers can work but will need constant maintenance.
> 
> ...


I'll see about getting some more pics. Most of what we have late in bloom right now is the Laughgani. The closeup pics don't come out too well under HPS light, and we don't remove the whole plant from the room till we've harvested about half of it. I can get you some good Laughgani pics of the next 5 small plants coming out May 21, after 10 full weeks. Those will come out of the room and be harvested in full.


----------



## growmomma (May 4, 2011)

I may post a couple pics later of our small under current set-up if u don't mind. Would love y'alls opinion on what we've got goin or may be lacking especially with the clogging issues and screens u talk abt. So far so good for us, but we've only vegged in it for 5 wks n then they were transplanted outside so clogging issues during flower have yet to be tested.


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## Sr. Verde (May 4, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Well, for now Helper D has his towering NY Diesel to play with for some head stash. For my Head stash, I'm really digging the laughgani. It is just the type of high I enjoy. Until we get everything going in the new systems and the room producing what I know it can, there will be no more new strains except the new Tahoe OG I was given. The Tahoe is time tested by a trusted grower, so it will go into production of at least 8 plants right away. I get lots of OG requests. The Laughgani is by far in the most demand. If it didn't take 10 weeks to finish I would just grow it. It's one of those buds that will get your foot in the door of most dispensarys...even the ones who claim not to be looking for new vendors.



That's cool dude - I was bringing up the Maui Wowie when you mentioned wanting to find a _new _not so over-powering strain.


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## TheLastWood (May 4, 2011)

Cg, you should try n find like a 18 week sativa for personals. Oh man, what a treat.


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## mellokitty (May 4, 2011)

i once had someone who's opinion i respect describe "marlie's collie" as "sativa light", not in a bad way...


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## hellraizer30 (May 4, 2011)

Hey CG came across this stuff at the local shop its call mighty wash. Its a freq water that kills by electric energy
That bugs cant grow a imunity to and kills all bugs and ages. If bugs are still a problem look into it, also its safe
For plants


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## rosecitypapa (May 5, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I understand exactly what you are proposing with the screen false bottom. Just keep in mind that roots are persistant and can work their way through the finest of mesh with time. I may try something similar. The real difference between mine and the under current is my low flow volume. I really just want enough flow to facilitate checking PH, TDS, and changing solution at a central location (the res). Also, tying in the buckets with a res gives us that much more solution. I'm not sure what all that volume of flow does for the Undercurrent system. I mean, it looks cool, and all. I can see the additional O2 for the return water falling into the res. But, I wonder what exactly all that flow does. I'm really just looking for the same growth that I got from 1 bucket and an air stone. I just don't want to service 90 individual buckets. At the same time, I'm not a fan of totally connecting everything in the room. 8 plants seems like a nice number. Those will also fit nice under 2 - 1000 watt lights. I'm leaning more and more towards just having a fixed plant location. It would make my life easier. We would just adjust the plant size with veg time and Bushmaster.


I think the flow would make a difference late in bloom when the roots fill the buckets - like a clogged filter on a vacuum cleaner, it still works but sub-optimally and with stress. 

The flow would also effect the water temp by having the main rez in a cooler space/shaded from light/chiller. 

For me, when testing the UC design, I liked the visual of the nutes mixing via the undercurrent. I didn't follow through with it though when my diy setup started leaking. Granted I didn't use the uniseals or any fittings for that manner, just silicone through cooler walls.

Didn't you mention that you had experimented on and off with hydro before? Did you use the 12" PVC?

Looking forward to the pics!


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## NDO (May 5, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> Hey CG came across this stuff at the local shop its call mighty wash. Its a freq water that kills by electric energy
> That bugs cant grow a imunity to and kills all bugs and ages. If bugs are still a problem look into it, also its safe
> For plants


*I came across this stuff too while reading. People seem to like it, seems a little spendy though. But if it does what it says it does and knocks out mites quickly then it's totally worth it IMO. Definitely something to look into. There's a few youtube videos on it if you're going to check it out. *


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## hellraizer30 (May 5, 2011)

Il look at the you tude but i tried it on fugas knats and a quick spray on a fly killed it dead just havent put it on a plant yet


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## Sr. Verde (May 5, 2011)

speaking of maui wowie:












200 an oz


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## collective gardener (May 5, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> I think the flow would make a difference late in bloom when the roots fill the buckets - like a clogged filter on a vacuum cleaner, it still works but sub-optimally and with stress.
> 
> The flow would also effect the water temp by having the main rez in a cooler space/shaded from light/chiller.
> 
> ...


I hear what you are saying about the flow and water temps. I need bigger tubing for the bloom room. I have to make it work with buckets because my plan is to lift the lid and plant root out and take that mass to a waiting bucket in the bloom room. I just need to figure out how to seal a 2" pipe into a 5 gallon bucket. I may elevate the bucket and penetrate the bottom, using a uni-seal.

I've used silicone, too, but with a twist: Use 2 glue couplings and a nipple. Cut the hole the OD of the nipple. Glue one nipple into one coupling. Coat the edges of the couplings with silicone, push the nipple through the hole, and glue the coupling on the other end. The edges of the coupling seat on the bucket with silicone. It helps to make a better seal. 

I have used 12" pipe before. I was working for a pipeline contractor and had acces to this very expensive pipe. Basically, in the last 20 years, I've used just about every hydro system you can think of. Most of the time I had no plant limits, growing hundreds of plants SOG. Now, we grow big plants, so the DWC makes the most sense. I was going to stick with soiless, but it's turning out to be too labor intensive. I have another business to run and need to spend less time at the grow. I've had great luck with simple DWC bucket systems, but wanted something with a central res to service the nutrient solution of several buckets at once. When I saw the Undercurrent, I knew that this was the way to go. I'm ok with not moving the buckets. If anyone has a great idea on how to seal a 2" pipe into the side of a bucket, let's hear it. Otherwise, I'll just raise the bucket a few inches and use the uni-seal.


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## collective gardener (May 5, 2011)

WAIT! I was looking online to order some uniseals and it looks like they will work in curved aplications. There is a pic of a 2" pipe being uni-sealed into the side of a 4" pipe. If that will work, then a 2" pipe can easily be sealed into the side of a bucket.


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## rosecitypapa (May 6, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I hear what you are saying about the flow and water temps. I need bigger tubing for the bloom room. I have to make it work with buckets because my plan is to lift the lid and plant root out and take that mass to a waiting bucket in the bloom room. I just need to figure out how to seal a 2" pipe into a 5 gallon bucket. I may elevate the bucket and penetrate the bottom, using a uni-seal.
> 
> I've used silicone, too, but with a twist: Use 2 glue couplings and a nipple. Cut the hole the OD of the nipple. Glue one nipple into one coupling. Coat the edges of the couplings with silicone, push the nipple through the hole, and glue the coupling on the other end. The edges of the coupling seat on the bucket with silicone. It helps to make a better seal.
> 
> I have used 12" pipe before. I was working for a pipeline contractor and had acces to this very expensive pipe. Basically, in the last 20 years, I've used just about every hydro system you can think of. Most of the time I had no plant limits, growing hundreds of plants SOG. Now, we grow big plants, so the DWC makes the most sense. I was going to stick with soiless, but it's turning out to be too labor intensive. I have another business to run and need to spend less time at the grow. I've had great luck with simple DWC bucket systems, but wanted something with a central res to service the nutrient solution of several buckets at once. When I saw the Undercurrent, I knew that this was the way to go. I'm ok with not moving the buckets. If anyone has a great idea on how to seal a 2" pipe into the side of a bucket, let's hear it. Otherwise, I'll just raise the bucket a few inches and use the uni-seal.


For some reason, using the glue couplings and silicone always worked for me until I started using the high powered air pumps currently available. Since then the vibration of the volume of air coming through the stones started my leaking issues. To be honest, the uniseals look like the best thing since sliced bread. 

We share the similar idea of raising the buckets and putting the fitting in the bottom. My current approach is to use 2" threaded bulkhead fittings. The thinking I had around it was to have the 2" pipe within the bucket as an overflow drain and to have a 2" x 4" bushing atop it. The 2" x 4" ABS bushing is modified so that six tabs within the interior of the bushing are removed and the bottom side of it is has a sheet of ABS glued on it, with the center drilled out to accept the 2" pipe. Six small 1/64" holes are drilled in a radial pattern around the 2" hole and when a 1/2" hole is tapped into the side of the unit, it makes a circular manifold that directs nutrient flow down the sides of the 2" overflow tube (when mounted). 

My goal was to create a water flow that resembles a tube torus. Having nutrients move down the center axis, turn outward at the bottom, flow up the sides and then drain toward the center overflow drain. A 1 gal paint strainer bag over the overflow drain keeps the roots from following the water down the drain. Nested buckets with the outer bucket having holes cut in the sides allow a horizontal drain pipe to connect the stacked buckets in series. The outer bucket being used as a support structure for the inner bucket. 

Using the uniseal would be a simpler solution but a different approach from an energetic aspect. Since I haven't done a side by side, it could just be my imagination yet I feel that when working with natural laws and processes, we utilize an efficiency and elegance that is divinely inspired. Certainly, indoor growing is a bit of a paradox - using so much technology and money to mimic what nature gives freely.

On a high note, the tube torus is an interesting geometric figure. It turns out all animals are essentially a tube torus (the digestive tract being the tube). From the powerhouse earthworm which is a simple elongated one to us humans which have some appendages and accessories attached to ours, there is something about the design that is universal.


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## collective gardener (May 6, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> For some reason, using the glue couplings and silicone always worked for me until I started using the high powered air pumps currently available. Since then the vibration of the volume of air coming through the stones started my leaking issues. To be honest, the uniseals look like the best thing since sliced bread.
> 
> We share the similar idea of raising the buckets and putting the fitting in the bottom. My current approach is to use 2" threaded bulkhead fittings. The thinking I had around it was to have the 2" pipe within the bucket as an overflow drain and to have a 2" x 4" bushing atop it. The 2" x 4" ABS bushing is modified so that six tabs within the interior of the bushing are removed and the bottom side of it is has a sheet of ABS glued on it, with the center drilled out to accept the 2" pipe. Six small 1/64" holes are drilled in a radial pattern around the 2" hole and when a 1/2" hole is tapped into the side of the unit, it makes a circular manifold that directs nutrient flow down the sides of the 2" overflow tube (when mounted).
> 
> ...


I ordered 10 1.5" Uniseals today on Ebay. I'll let you know how they seal in the sides of the bucket. 

I plan on using the 1.5" pipe as a drain back to the res. It will be placed as low as possible, to make sure most water is removed at solution changes. I would like the water to be oxygenated upon entry into each bucket. Kind of like a modified aeroponics aystem, but with greatly increased flow. I'm thinking a 1000gph pump minimum feeding 8 buckets. Now I need to find a way to aereate (sp?) the water without using nozzles prone to clogging. I have dropped nozzles before through the top of each unit, making inspection and cleaning easy. I may just have 4 - 1/4" tubes top feeding the base of each plant. I'm thinking that the water running down the Hydrotons and into the solution should add some oxygen. That, combined with the airtstone seems like it would do the trick. Thoughts?

BTW, the paint strainer idea is great. I happen to have a box of em with the airless I purchased to paint this grow op! Good on ya.


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## TheLastWood (May 6, 2011)

Top feeding with such a large amount of water should definately force oxygen into the rootzone, by displacement. Kind of like how an ebb and flow pushes all the stagnant oxygen up and out and then sucks new rich oxygen into the medium when drained.


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## hellraizer30 (May 6, 2011)

Hey CG you ever look up that mighty wash?


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## rosecitypapa (May 6, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> speaking of maui wowie:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's some beautiful Maui Wowie !! I have fond memories of that strain!


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## rosecitypapa (May 6, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I ordered 10 1.5" Uniseals today on Ebay. I'll let you know how they seal in the sides of the bucket.
> 
> I plan on using the 1.5" pipe as a drain back to the res. It will be placed as low as possible, to make sure most water is removed at solution changes. I would like the water to be oxygenated upon entry into each bucket. Kind of like a modified aeroponics aystem, but with greatly increased flow. I'm thinking a 1000gph pump minimum feeding 8 buckets. Now I need to find a way to aereate (sp?) the water without using nozzles prone to clogging. I have dropped nozzles before through the top of each unit, making inspection and cleaning easy. I may just have 4 - 1/4" tubes top feeding the base of each plant. I'm thinking that the water running down the Hydrotons and into the solution should add some oxygen. That, combined with the airtstone seems like it would do the trick. Thoughts?
> 
> BTW, the paint strainer idea is great. I happen to have a box of em with the airless I purchased to paint this grow op! Good on ya.


I like the 1.5" uniseals, didn't think of that. Don't vacuum hoses come in that size? They would be ideal flexible bucket connectors for maximum freedom in plant placement. 

As for the aeration, you could make your own clog-free jets. Basically it's a cone shaped void in the structure of the nozzle. For example I use 1/2" PVC caps and build a jig that allows the cap to sit on it and let me drill a 1/16" - 1/8" hole through the cap. Then by taking the drill and making a circular motion much like a spinning top slowing down, one reams out the backside of the hole to make the hole shape like an inverse funnel made of empty space. What makes it clog proof is that any debris that gets in the hole upon clogging and having pressure build up, gets 'blown out' and not 'clogged within' due to the shape of the void. If the void was it's opposite and like a mini funnel going through the width of the pvc, it would prone to clog,...depends on the screen/filter one has on the pump. 

I use a small bucket big enough for the pump. I modify the bucket by using a 3" hole saw and making multiple holes, essentially transforming it into a porous structure. Putting all this into a 5gal paint strainer bag is pretty effective.

The 1000 gph pump is a good starting point for eight plants. If you use the 1/4" tube drippers you'll need a bypass on the pump. It's too much volume of water if I understand what you're aiming for.

As for DO, in my research and experience, it's the movement the interface between the main body of water and the air that provides the most DO such as a rushing mountain stream. The next is when the surface is penetrated by dropping water, such as rain, shower, waterfall, etc. A ribbon penetration is better than jets. Bubbles are the least effective. Venturi's are definitely the best bang for the buck. So easy to make DIY!

Come to think of it, to tune your system, having a bypass will be a necessity for you; with roots and all, the 1 1/2" drain might not handle 1000 gph of throughput all the way through bloom without one.


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## collective gardener (May 7, 2011)

Planned on the bypass actually helping to oxygenate the main res. I like the idea of a venturi on the water entry points at the bucket. I've made ribbon jets before by making a thin slice length wise in PVC pipe. I used the blade from a Roto Zip tool kit. It was the only thin I could find thin enough. So many options.

I will figure out a way to make the 1.5" pipe work. I was thinking 1.5" out of each bucket, teeing into 2" main line run back to the res. The res will be about 20' away, outside of the grow room. The main warehouse is much cooler. I'm trying to avoid a water chiller. Since I'll end up with 6 seperate systems just in the bloom room, that's alot of $$$ in chillers.

On another note, the inductive light test is just about ready to begin. Plants are rooting and an area has been set asside. Should I do this test with DWC plants or coco? Thoughts?


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## NorthernLights#5 (May 7, 2011)

I would go DWC just as thats what your talking about switching to


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## Wolverine97 (May 7, 2011)

NorthernLights#5 said:


> I would go DWC just as thats what your talking about switching to


No it's not.


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## rosecitypapa (May 7, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Planned on the bypass actually helping to oxygenate the main res. I like the idea of a venturi on the water entry points at the bucket. I've made ribbon jets before by making a thin slice length wise in PVC pipe. I used the blade from a Roto Zip tool kit. It was the only thin I could find thin enough. So many options.
> 
> I will figure out a way to make the 1.5" pipe work. I was thinking 1.5" out of each bucket, teeing into 2" main line run back to the res. The res will be about 20' away, outside of the grow room. The main warehouse is much cooler. I'm trying to avoid a water chiller. Since I'll end up with 6 seperate systems just in the bloom room, that's alot of $$$ in chillers.
> 
> On another note, the inductive light test is just about ready to begin. Plants are rooting and an area has been set asside. Should I do this test with DWC plants or coco? Thoughts?


I like the ribbon jet, nice one! I'm gonna make one of those! 

Just a 2" main drainline? You are serious about low flow. I hear you about the chillers. My workaround would be to leverage the cooling capacity of the chiller. To do this, I'd have the chiller cool a manifold. The manifold would be an independent circuit with pump that has a heat exchanger in each rez. That and having the buckets insulated and resting on concrete would have you get as much cooling capacity from a single chiller as you can. 

With the inductive lights test, I'm an 'and/also' kind of guy. Do you have space limits from testing both?


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## TheLastWood (May 7, 2011)

I can't wait for the induction test I've been excited about it since you first got the light. We have such deathly hot summers here if they can produce like an hid with the heat of a flourescant ill blow my top and go buy a few!


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## TheLastWood (May 7, 2011)

I can't wait for the induction test I've been excited about it since you first got the light. We have such deathly hot summers here if they can produce like an hid with the heat of a flourescant ill blow my top and go buy a few!


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## TheLastWood (May 7, 2011)

With a cooler lighting system I could go full steam all year. I have such a good lineup.

Growing plushberry know and have 2 cataract kush seedlings (og kush x la confidential) 

In seeds I have la cheese, sage, blue widow, critical + and I finally just ordered romulan and grapegod. I'm turning into a strain whore. Ill only grow 2 at once but if I had gardeners setup id be growin like 5 lol


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## MrEDuck (May 7, 2011)

I just stopped lurking and I've been reading this thread for a few weeks and thought I would drop in to say how much I appreciate all you're doing. This is a great thread and what you're doing with your grow is fantastic. The fact that you are putting effort into finding people truly in need to donate to just great. 
I have GI problems that cause frequent nausea and vomitting (I went from being 5'7" 145lbs to 107lbs in less than 6 months, a year later and I'm up to 117lbs) and I have an autoimmune disorder that isn't doing well that my doctor and I are giving serious thought to putting me on methotrexate (a chemotherapy drug, albeit at a fairly low dose) for. I'm in NJ and they're doing everything to stop MMJ from happening and it's just wrong. I'm technically anorexic still and the pills just don't cut it. The best antiemetic out isn't even enough to stop the vomitting when it's bad, and eating when you're nauseous is really hard. Smoking doesn't just help more with the vomiting, it let's me eat. I really believe if it wasn't for smoking that this would have killed me by now. So I can pay tons of money and risk my freedom or waste away to nothing. It makes me really happy to know that there are people out there trying to help people like me.
Sorry for the rant, the way MMJ is getting blocked out here upsets me so much it just spews out sometimes. Thank you again for your hard work to help people and for showing us how you're doing it.


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## collective gardener (May 7, 2011)

The induction light test is days away. The clones are rooting right now. I'm only going to veg them a week or so. The test will be bloom only. We have the lights and table set up and ready to go. Thanks for the patience. The mites at the same time of trimming took up alot of time. Sorry to all. We will get this test started in less than 10 days.


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## collective gardener (May 7, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> I like the ribbon jet, nice one! I'm gonna make one of those!
> 
> Just a 2" main drainline? You are serious about low flow. I hear you about the chillers. My workaround would be to leverage the cooling capacity of the chiller. To do this, I'd have the chiller cool a manifold. The manifold would be an independent circuit with pump that has a heat exchanger in each rez. That and having the buckets insulated and resting on concrete would have you get as much cooling capacity from a single chiller as you can.
> 
> With the inductive lights test, I'm an 'and/also' kind of guy. Do you have space limits from testing both?


2" will be PLENTY big enough to drain 8 buckets...even with good flow. I'm only feeding with a 1" line. I, too, though about a heat exchanger. My marine mechanic bachground took me right there. LOL. I'm thinking copper coils in each res off of the chilling manifold. I also want to place some sort of putty under the buckets to make fulll un-insulated contact with the concrete floor. A little circle dam filled with water would be ideal, but not feasable. I just want that concrete to eat as much heat from the bucket as possible. You see what I'm trying to do?


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## collective gardener (May 7, 2011)

MrEDuck said:


> I just stopped lurking and I've been reading this thread for a few weeks and thought I would drop in to say how much I appreciate all you're doing. This is a great thread and what you're doing with your grow is fantastic. The fact that you are putting effort into finding people truly in need to donate to just great.
> I have GI problems that cause frequent nausea and vomitting (I went from being 5'7" 145lbs to 107lbs in less than 6 months, a year later and I'm up to 117lbs) and I have an autoimmune disorder that isn't doing well that my doctor and I are giving serious thought to putting me on methotrexate (a chemotherapy drug, albeit at a fairly low dose) for. I'm in NJ and they're doing everything to stop MMJ from happening and it's just wrong. I'm technically anorexic still and the pills just don't cut it. The best antiemetic out isn't even enough to stop the vomitting when it's bad, and eating when you're nauseous is really hard. Smoking doesn't just help more with the vomiting, it let's me eat. I really believe if it wasn't for smoking that this would have killed me by now. So I can pay tons of money and risk my freedom or waste away to nothing. It makes me really happy to know that there are people out there trying to help people like me.
> Sorry for the rant, the way MMJ is getting blocked out here upsets me so much it just spews out sometimes. Thank you again for your hard work to help people and for showing us how you're doing it.


Fuck man...I wish you were here. I'm so sorry you can't get the meds you need. This pisses me off big time. Fuck this...stand by for a PM.


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## TheLastWood (May 8, 2011)

MrEDuck said:


> I just stopped lurking and I've been reading this thread for a few weeks and thought I would drop in to say how much I appreciate all you're doing. This is a great thread and what you're doing with your grow is fantastic. The fact that you are putting effort into finding people truly in need to donate to just great.
> I have GI problems that cause frequent nausea and vomitting (I went from being 5'7" 145lbs to 107lbs in less than 6 months, a year later and I'm up to 117lbs) and I have an autoimmune disorder that isn't doing well that my doctor and I are giving serious thought to putting me on methotrexate (a chemotherapy drug, albeit at a fairly low dose) for. I'm in NJ and they're doing everything to stop MMJ from happening and it's just wrong. I'm technically anorexic still and the pills just don't cut it. The best antiemetic out isn't even enough to stop the vomitting when it's bad, and eating when you're nauseous is really hard. Smoking doesn't just help more with the vomiting, it let's me eat. I really believe if it wasn't for smoking that this would have killed me by now. So I can pay tons of money and risk my freedom or waste away to nothing. It makes me really happy to know that there are people out there trying to help people like me.
> Sorry for the rant, the way MMJ is getting blocked out here upsets me so much it just spews out sometimes. Thank you again for your hard work to help people and for showing us how you're doing it.


That made me want to cry. God bless you.


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## rosecitypapa (May 8, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> 2" will be PLENTY big enough to drain 8 buckets...even with good flow. I'm only feeding with a 1" line. I, too, though about a heat exchanger. My marine mechanic bachground took me right there. LOL. I'm thinking copper coils in each res off of the chilling manifold. I also want to place some sort of putty under the buckets to make fulll un-insulated contact with the concrete floor. A little circle dam filled with water would be ideal, but not feasable. I just want that concrete to eat as much heat from the bucket as possible. You see what I'm trying to do?


If you think the 2" will work, I'm sure it will. 

My math on it is something like this: 
Drain sizes are calculated by a fixture unit which is generally 7-1/2 gpm. 
Your pump is 1000 gph or ~16 gpm. 
There are eight buckets so the flow will be 2 gpm per bucket. 
An individual bucket with drain at 1-1/2" rated to 2 fixture units allows for 15 gpm before overload. 
A 2" pipe is rated 3 fixture units which drains at 22-1/2 gpm. 
With only 16 gpm input, I see how you would think this is plenty.

Still though with 20' of horizontal run, I'd put a vent at the head of the drain line.

As for the putty, what about some thin-set mortar? You've got your no fuss low-tech thermal transfer putty right there, inexpensive to boot! Come to think of it, you could design it to be damp with a dripper during lights on for evaporative cooling to add to the mix too. (Ok, now I get your reference to the circle dam.)


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## Tamorin (May 8, 2011)

the ignition test, what a moment. I pop in every now and agian keep on rockin, mites during trimming ouch. Good luck keep on rockin.


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## collective gardener (May 10, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> If you think the 2" will work, I'm sure it will.
> 
> My math on it is something like this:
> Drain sizes are calculated by a fixture unit which is generally 7-1/2 gpm.
> ...


I do my math a bit different.

I have a couple old aluminum fuel tanks I removed from a boat in my shop. They both have 1 1/2" fills. I connected the tanks fill nipples together with 1 1/2" hose. I then put a garden hose in one tank full blast from the household pressure in the shop. Since the tanks were cut in half to remove them, I could see the water go from the first tank to the second through the 1 1/2" hose. At full blast the water level in the 1st tank was only about an inch higher than the second the whole time. Even IF I was using the same volume of water (which I'm not), the volume will be flowing through 8 pipes, not just 1. A small water level difference is fine. In fact, it could vary several inches with no effect on the system. I'm thinking of supplying the buckets with solution via a ribbon flow AND a couple spray fittings. A 30 micron filter should keep clogs to a minimum. The return water to res will be under water. To maintain O2 saturation in the res, I'm thinking a second small pump with elevated sprayers blasting the surface with a dozen streams of water. 

I like the thinset idea. I'll just dilute the shit out of it with silica sand to prevent a strong bond with the slab (I do need to move out one day).

The T-5 1 system (basically a cloner, but just with an air stone), and the T-5 2 system ( air stoned buckets to a central res) are complete and growing plants. The T-5 2 plants are now touching leaves (after just 6 days!) and need to be moved into the new designed bucket system under 2 1000 watt MH's. This MUST be built tomorrow. Then I just need to keep building one 8 bucket system at a time to keep recieving plants as older plants are harvested from bloom. In about 10 weeks, the whole op will be 100% DWC. I've started the flush on our first 2 DWC plants today...known as Godzilla and his buddy. From previous experience, this flush will take less than a week, as opposed to 2.5 weeks with the coco. I'm really looking forward to the final yield results of these 2 plants, as they are the exact sized plants I can grow to fill out the room and stay under our plants limit. Up until now, we've been kind of "freestyle" with any total yield calculations. Now, we can start fine tuning and pumping up the yield over this summer. Once the DWC is perfect, it will be time to seal the rooms, add the ductless A/C system, and fire up the CO2. Play time is over. It's time to get serious. Helper D's job is about to kick into overdrive.

I checked out your grow. Very nice. I'm a fan of those vertical light systems. Have you checked out Kitty's vertical bare bulb settup? The Canadian Kitty that hangs here...not the basement grow Kitty.


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## MrEDuck (May 10, 2011)

Thanks for the well wishes. It's weird, I know I have serious health problems but knowing how much worse they could be makes it seem not so bad. I could have cancer or AIDS and have all the wasting problems and have something else killing me on top of it.
It offends me so much what is happening here about MMJ, the population is strongly in favor of it, the legislature voted for it, and the asshole governor thinks we're all wrong and is doing everything to prevent the law from going into effect and weaken it should it ever come to pass. I fail to understand how alleiviating suffering can be a bad thing.
CG you did inspire me to do something with the new grow. I have a friend who has the same kinda stomach problems who won't be paying for weed anymore in the near future.


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## collective gardener (May 10, 2011)

MrEDuck said:


> Thanks for the well wishes. It's weird, I know I have serious health problems but knowing how much worse they could be makes it seem not so bad. I could have cancer or AIDS and have all the wasting problems and have something else killing me on top of it.
> It offends me so much what is happening here about MMJ, the population is strongly in favor of it, the legislature voted for it, and the asshole governor thinks we're all wrong and is doing everything to prevent the law from going into effect and weaken it should it ever come to pass. I fail to understand how alleiviating suffering can be a bad thing.
> CG you did inspire me to do something with the new grow. I have a friend who has the same kinda stomach problems who won't be paying for weed anymore in the near future.


For whatever reason (and theories abound), there is strong resistance to marijuana in all forms: medical, hemp, recreational. There must be a ton of money behind this resistance to basically over rule the will of the people in so many cases. All we can do is keep on yelling until they hear us. There has been some great lawsuit victories in my county with folks getting paid well for having their meds destroyed by the cops. The best one (I've told this story before), is when several years ago a cop testified to the "street value" of some marijuana to make a dealer look big time. He came up with like $6,400/lb. Last year that testimany was used to place a value on several pounds of meds unlawfully destroyed by the police. The police department had to pay the couple the amount that their own officer inflated. Since then, the police department here no longer gives ANY testimony regarding the price of marijuana. Furthermore, they will not offer _any _"expert testimony" on marijuana growing because it keeps coming back to bite them.


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## TheLastWood (May 11, 2011)

Dude cops don't know shit about shit. 

I think its fucking hilarious how little they know about drugs. Think about it, if you were taught nothing but bullshit propaganda and told to enforce it on ppl, you would stupid too.

I've had cops tell me my mexican brick weed was "very potent" because ithe liquid turned purple when he droped it in a vial. Lmao

But if I go on about all the stupid shit they do this will be a very long msg.

The tides are turning, ppls eyes are opening. With every piece of information known to man is at the click of a button, they can't keep the truth covered up as well.

Full legalization or total revolution inside 10 years 100:1


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## NDO (May 11, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I do my math a bit different.
> 
> I have a couple old aluminum fuel tanks I removed from a boat in my shop. They both have 1 1/2" fills. I connected the tanks fill nipples together with 1 1/2" hose. I then put a garden hose in one tank full blast from the household pressure in the shop. Since the tanks were cut in half to remove them, I could see the water go from the first tank to the second through the 1 1/2" hose. At full blast the water level in the 1st tank was only about an inch higher than the second the whole time. Even IF I was using the same volume of water (which I'm not), the volume will be flowing through 8 pipes, not just 1. A small water level difference is fine. In fact, it could vary several inches with no effect on the system. I'm thinking of supplying the buckets with solution via a ribbon flow AND a couple spray fittings. A 30 micron filter should keep clogs to a minimum. The return water to res will be under water. To maintain O2 saturation in the res, I'm thinking a second small pump with elevated sprayers blasting the surface with a dozen streams of water.
> 
> ...


CG, how's the good fight going!? I see you're going 100% DWC now, I remember reading on another thread you checking into bare bulb growing, are you still planning on leaving any room to experiment with that? Or is being 100% DWC going to suffice for growing the size of plants/trees you were hoping for while staying within your plant limits?


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## b.g. (May 11, 2011)

Hope everything is goin good with the grow....Was just checkn back in to see if the predetors did any justice or if the mites are back in full effect?I also had a question i been asking around about and wanted to hear your expertise on this subject..I have a completely sealed room other then exhausting the lights..I have a watercooled c02 gen running at about 1500 ppm with lights on...In the dark period i have been seeing high ppm readings all the way up to 1700 ppm..I have never seen levels this high at night..My room must be very well sealed to be building up these levels from the plants producing co2 at night...Anyway hears the question.....How detrimental do you think these high nightime levels are?Are they not getting enough oxygen at night with these high levels?I was thinking about exhausting at night but never had to before in a sealed room,,It kind of defeats the sealed room purpose..I also tried cutting off the gen an hour before lights out but the levels are still high in the middle of the night...Also this is a hydro grow and plants seem to b looking fine.........Anyone feel free to chime in on this if you have any input on this matter....


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## collective gardener (May 11, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Dude cops don't know shit about shit.
> 
> I think its fucking hilarious how little they know about drugs. Think about it, if you were taught nothing but bullshit propaganda and told to enforce it on ppl, you would stupid too.
> 
> ...


I don't know if the pot issue is enough to trigger a revolution, but if you add that to the other 11 inches of dick they're jamming up our asses, it may just be enough. I don't know about you, but 12 inches of politician's dick rammed into my life's ass is the absolute limit. Sure, they use lube...good lube. That's why we don't feel the first 10. But, they're starting to get greedy with the dick giving. They'll be lucky if we all just say "take it out", and not "take it out...now bend over...it's your turn".


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## collective gardener (May 11, 2011)

NDO said:


> CG, how's the good fight going!? I see you're going 100% DWC now, I remember reading on another thread you checking into bare bulb growing, are you still planning on leaving any room to experiment with that? Or is being 100% DWC going to suffice for growing the size of plants/trees you were hoping for while staying within your plant limits?


We still want to do the bare bulb thing. Before we try it, we'll need to get our plant size dialed in for light spacing. So, we'll get the size dialed in with the DWC, and then try a row of bare bulbs. We also may try some vertical induction lighting since we can get the plants so much closer to the lights. Thats the down side with bare bulb vertical...space. It takes alot of room because of the spacing needed between the lights and the plants. Induction lighting could increase the amount of plant area/light. For now, we'll get the whole room DWC, test the induction lights, probably buy a couple 400 watt induction lights for an overhead test, then start with the bare bulb stuff. As you can see, these rooms are not for short term use. I had my shit perfect prior to these pesky plant limits. I used to just throw down 500 plants in a SOG, and grow. Now, I've had to learn canopy shape all over. I imagine there will be a big shift towards large plant growing as folks search for more yield per plant.


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## collective gardener (May 11, 2011)

b.g. said:


> Hope everything is goin good with the grow....Was just checkn back in to see if the predetors did any justice or if the mites are back in full effect?I also had a question i been asking around about and wanted to hear your expertise on this subject..I have a completely sealed room other then exhausting the lights..I have a watercooled c02 gen running at about 1500 ppm with lights on...In the dark period i have been seeing high ppm readings all the way up to 1700 ppm..I have never seen levels this high at night..My room must be very well sealed to be building up these levels from the plants producing co2 at night...Anyway hears the question.....How detrimental do you think these high nightime levels are?Are they not getting enough oxygen at night with these high levels?I was thinking about exhausting at night but never had to before in a sealed room,,It kind of defeats the sealed room purpose..I also tried cutting off the gen an hour before lights out but the levels are still high in the middle of the night...Also this is a hydro grow and plants seem to b looking fine.........Anyone feel free to chime in on this if you have any input on this matter....


I the predators helped, I couldn't tell. We're back to spraying. I've found that the Ortho Petrolium Oil works the best. It actually kills the eggs. We alternate that with Aza-Max, and a Pyrethium bomb in the Veg room every 2 weeks. We stop all spraying 3 weeks into bloom. We're hoping that the new plants will have enough oil on/in them to deter the mites in the last 5-7 weeks (the Laughganis take 10 weeks).

I have had the exact night time CO2 problem. I chose to vent at the start of lights out. But, I'm not sure if it was a problem. I would worry more about any time you have elevated CO2 levels during lights on...even an hour. The plants get addicted to the highest level they experience. If you ran 1500 ppm, and then went to 1000, your plants would grow slower than if they never had CO2 at all. I learned that first hand. So, the 1700 ppm time could be getting your plants "used to" that level, and then not maximizing growth during the 1500 ppm times. 

My commercial growing buddy did a great test to prove this. He had a 2 room flip for blooming. One room he ran at exactly 750ppm during daylight. The other he ran up to 1500ppm, let it drop to 1000ppm, before running back up to 1500ppm. The 700ppm room grew MUCH faster and bigger. Since then, I've always just used 1000ppm, but used equipment that would keep every part of the room exactly at that level. I had 4 meters in the room, and kept adding fans and changing fan locations until I get every meter reading the same. I don't feel that one meter is enough. At least not enough until you get your air movement dialed in. Fortunately, I have access to several meters from a friend. Given their price, it could get expensive. When we seal the room in June, and add CO2, we'll use several meters to achieve consistant levels.

Anyways, I think it's up to you. I'd see how much extra gas you're using if you vent the room at night. Or, if everything is rocking perfect, why change?

Which water cooled gen are you using? Are you using a water chiller? How big is the gen? How big is your room? How much gas do you use? Cost? I'm in the market and like the water cooled units. My buddy says they suck, but he hates anything newer than 10 years. Sorry I couldn't give you a better answer. Maybe someone here knows if the high night levels are bad. I know that I'm going to use my CO2 to BLAST the mites with some insane ppm level. I want to find out what levels will kill a mite and what level damages a plant. I hear that it's the best way to kill every single live adult mite in the room.


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## hellraizer30 (May 11, 2011)

You look into that mighty wash for bugs?


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## mr.smileyface (May 11, 2011)

Azamax is the best IMO I spray twice in a cycle and never get any bugs. People think its just a neem concentrate. But its an antifeedent. Works killer in my show and i swear by it. I mix about 7-10ml per litre and spray right 15 minutes before the lights go out. I try to only spray the underside of the leafs where all those little shits think they are gonna live. Really easy to mix aswell. Im not advertising it, just passing good info along. The good growers already know about it.


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## hellraizer30 (May 11, 2011)

Problem with azamax and other products is over time mites can grow a amunity to it and the shit hits the fan
I use it to but only in the res to kill bugs in the medium, on the surface i use the mighty wash bugs cant grow
Amunitys to it and it kills on contact not over time. Eggs adults there fried by the freq. Water


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## mr.smileyface (May 11, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> Problem with azamax and other products is over time mites can grow a amunity to it and the shit hits the fan
> I use it to but only in the res to kill bugs in the medium, on the surface i use the mighty wash bugs cant grow
> Amunitys to it and it kills on contact not over time. Eggs adults there fried by the freq. Water


 Really? weird. I didnt know the bugs stopped eating it? It takes three days at least for it to kill them. I want proof that bugs get immune to pestisides. Cause i aint gone none. It really fucks up there reproducing.


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## MrEDuck (May 11, 2011)

My phone doesn't seem to allow me to use reply with quote and I have no other Internet at the moment. I was trying to quote CG in post #1032.
First off the story about the people getting reimbursed $6,400 a plant is awesome.
As far as the resistance to relaxing MJ laws in any form, there certainly is a lot of money funding it. How much do we waste in the so called war on drugs? Since pot is the most used drug a good portion of that money is used on fighting marijuana. It's a big fucking business and tons of people are making a living from it. And with the crap drug education that exists there are a lot of ignorant people who think if you try pot you'll end up a homeless junkie doing all sorts of awful things to fund your habit. That's getting better, but not much and not quickly enough. At least most people my age and younger have seen that most people who smoke do just fine in life.
I'm personally against the prohibition of all drugs. We saw what prohibition did with alcohol, it actually increased alcohol consumption. Because there was no one monitoring the manufacture it resulted in people putting all kinds of dangerous shit like wood alcohol being added or outright sold as alcohol, causing a huge jump in alcohol related health problems including blindness and death from people ingesting methanol. Worst of all it caused violent criminal gangs to take over the supply. With alcohol illegal there was no legal recourse if a deal went south. Instead of being able to sue someone for breech of contract the gangs had to use violence and hope to make an example of the person so that others would be afraid to do something. The same situation exists today with every illegal drug. Nothing is pure or of a known potency. You could buy a bundle of dope (10 bags of heroin for those who don't know) and one bag might have a bit that didn't mix properly with the cut and is 80-90% pure while the rest are only 20%. The user can be safe and do a test shot and find that one bag of the 20% gets them to where they want to be. Then they do the uncut bag and OD and quite possibly die because the stigma of using hard drugs mean people do them in isolation. Even having safe spots to use like they have in Vancouver prevents this tragedy. But we can't relax the drug laws. The current methamphetamine epidemic is MUCH MUCH worse than the pretty much worldwide post WW2 meth epidemic because back then it was pharm grade 99%+ pure. Every army that fought in WW2 was methed up. They gave it to soldiers to combat fatigue. There was one pill they made that was a combo of meth, cocaine, and oxycodone they gave to soldiers to keep them awake, alert, energetic, aggressive, and numb to pain. Afer the war there was so much stockpiled that they started marketing it to civillians. Probably half the housewives in the US were on mothers little helper that was an amphetamine a barbiturate (don't even get me started on how dangerous these are) or a combo of the two. It wasn't until we had a counterculture that used drugs that they became a "problem." I'm not in favor of people using drugs like meth and crack and heroin, but I'm not naive enough to think that people aren't going to do them regardless of their legal status. And I'm certainly not in favor of violent criminal organizations making billions from the sale of them and literally ripping countries apart (look at how much violence there is in Mexico or Columbia). If drugs were legal the violence would be hugely reduced, they could be sold known purities, potencies, and quantities. And instead of spending billions trying to do the impossible and stop people from getting high, the government could tax the shit out of them (making them legal reduces the number of middlemen who increase the price and put god knows what into them, drugs are almost all cheap to produce) without really effecting the end user price per dose. Take say half of that money and put it into funding drug treatment so help is readily available and accessable, and bank the rest. We also save because people won't be going to jail for possesing drugs. The police will be freed up to investigate actual crimes.
Even marijuana isn't safe because of prohibition. People kill over the money associated with it, people spray microscopic glass balls on pot to make it look like it has more crystals. I'm a chemist (or was before my health problems made me unable to work) so I know people who work in crime labs and they've told me that the glass thing is becoming more and more common, these are friends who have no problem with me smoking so they aren't trying to scare me straight (I've seen it in Microgram, the DEA's formerly internal journal about the analysis of seized drugs, as well. It stopped being inhouse because it got leaked so much that they make it available to the public now) it did scare me enough that a few months back I got some especially frosty nugs from a guy who quite possibly gets his shit from the kind of people who would try to improve the bag appeal at the expense of someone's health. So I asked a friend to run it on the TEM and it was straight, it was actually some of the best nugget I've had in awhile. But I was concerned about wether or not my pot was too good (not that pot can be too good) or too good to be true. Because of prohibition.
I think pot will be legalized first. And that the resultant increase in revenue fro
taxation and drop in crime, etc results in an end to prohibition. It only hurts people.
Sorry for the rant. This is an issue that makes me kinda run my mouth.


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## Redpowder (May 11, 2011)

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE If you don't ever post a thing again after this please just post a picture of the electrical bill... 
its gotta be like $2000 a month...

GREAT GROW BRW


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## hellraizer30 (May 11, 2011)

It very known that mites build a amunity to it, the adults eat it and before they die they lay eggs and the new born
Sport a bit of a amunity. As generation go by that amunity grow stronger then you end up with a super mite,
Why they say use several different things to fight them.


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## collective gardener (May 12, 2011)

Redpowder said:


> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE If you don't ever post a thing again after this please just post a picture of the electrical bill...
> its gotta be like $2000 a month...
> 
> GREAT GROW BRW


 
bill is in my hand...due the 15th...$1308.00


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## collective gardener (May 12, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> It very known that mites build a amunity to it, the adults eat it and before they die they lay eggs and the new born
> Sport a bit of a amunity. As generation go by that amunity grow stronger then you end up with a super mite,
> Why they say use several different things to fight them.


 
I am done playing nice nice with the mites. I need to find someone in another state to recieve a bottle of Floramite and Avid for me and send it to my PO box. These 2 seem to be the #1 way to fist pump a mite into therapy...then death. Contact kill on eggs and adults for 28 days with Floramite. Expensive as hell...I don't care. I had a good month that could have been better w/o the bugs. And, I don't give one rat's ass about how toxic they are at this point. Let me kill them all...THEN, I'll move on to safe controls for the FEW mites that may show up. This has gone on too long, and I've spent too much time and $$$ trying to make the granola heads happy. Now I'll just say "Floramie is a molecule...molecules are natural...Floramite is natural." Die you mite fuckers, and I hope it hurts.


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## SCCA (May 12, 2011)

ledbud said:


> You should check out LEDBUDGUYS new hydro setup. He's running 12 357 magnums and 8 ISIS-FX1's over 24 purple kush in the craziest fucking hydro syetem you have ever seen!!! http://ledbudguy.com/showthread.php/49-357-magnum-led-vs.-super-lemon-haze


Really?... Is that a black flag i see on the horizon?


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## SCCA (May 12, 2011)

sorry to hear the predators arent working out for you CG. definitely time for an all out war on those suckers. That mighty wash that hellraizer mentioned sounds pretty cool. i use a wasp killer that works the same way and it knocks them right out of the air, dead almost instantly.


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## Redpowder (May 12, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> bill is in my hand...due the 15th...$1308.00


 Nice lol Figured it would be around there.


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## hellraizer30 (May 12, 2011)

Well that sucks cg I dont want to seem like a sales pitch but im having great luck
With mighty wash never seen or tryed floralmite


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## collective gardener (May 12, 2011)

ledbud said:


> You should check out LEDBUDGUYS new hydro setup. He's running 12 357 magnums and 8 ISIS-FX1's over 24 purple kush in the craziest fucking hydro syetem you have ever seen!!! http://ledbudguy.com/showthread.php/49-357-magnum-led-vs.-super-lemon-haze


Go away. Stay away. Make your sale's pitches someplace else. Jesus, at least say HI before you start with the selling. You gave your pitch, now here's mine. LED's suck ass. I have used them in flowering applications and HID lights work much MUCH better. There is a reason I have 18 - 1000 watt HID's. IF LED's worked, I would have used them. Please, nobody waste their money on LED's. The worst 2 I know of are the 357 Magnums and the 8ISIS-FX1's. Those 2 lights barely even promote growth. The customer service is awful, as well. As I see it, inductive lighting may be the only viable economically feasable replacement for HID. LED has come and gone.

Now, I think I'll stop by any thread where you have posted and give my opinion. You cold called the wrong place, bud.


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## TheLastWood (May 12, 2011)

Cg what are the reason predators aren't working, in your opinion. Is it ur temps, rh? 

I mean what is more powerful than a creatures will to survive? How could they not work? They must eat. If they have been around for millions of years evovling and adapting and most importantly, eating, then I just don't understand?you would think, as long as you have enough, they will work.

Maybe the guys ripped u off. I know you said there cool but it just doesn't make sense to me


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## mellokitty (May 12, 2011)

hey y'all just thought i'd stop by and say hi and thanks for the shoutout, cg. in case you'd noticed i've been having myself a wee hiatus from 'talking shop' (meantime i've retreated into the kitchen to explore some more 'traditionally feminine' pursuits..... yum!) i've finally tracked down some food grade citric acid and my extraction is doing it's thang as i type this. i stupidly passed on some liquid lecithin last week so i added a bit of glycerin to see if it aids the 'liposomal encapsulation'. i've just realised that i won't know unless i do a side-by-side so i'll probably start one sans glycerin, hopefully today.

the led marketers are out in full force eh? i've had one hit up my GARDEN thread 3 times, he doesn't seem to understand that i don't have (nor plan to have) a light setup over my backyard for my outdoor veggies. thankfully (for them) none of them have found my journal yet, but if they think we're replacing our still-warranteed quantum family, they are not only barking up the wrong tree but standing knee deep in poison oak while they howl.


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## drgreentm (May 12, 2011)

ledbud said:


> You should check out LEDBUDGUYS new hydro setup. He's running 12 357 magnums and 8 ISIS-FX1's over 24 purple kush in the craziest fucking hydro syetem you have ever seen!!! http://ledbudguy.com/showthread.php/49-357-magnum-led-vs.-super-lemon-haze


 dude i just saw this in like 4 other threads in the hydro forum dont understand people sometimes.


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (May 12, 2011)

LEDBudGuy got all butt hurt when folks here started challanging him. He left in a huff and started his own fourm.


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## NDO (May 12, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Go away. Stay away. Make your sale's pitches someplace else. Jesus, at least say HI before you start with the selling. You gave your pitch, now here's mine. LED's suck ass. I have used them in flowering applications and HID lights work much MUCH better. There is a reason I have 18 - 1000 watt HID's. IF LED's worked, I would have used them. Please, nobody waste their money on LED's. The worst 2 I know of are the 357 Magnums and the 8ISIS-FX1's. Those 2 lights barely even promote growth. The customer service is awful, as well. As I see it, inductive lighting may be the only viable economically feasable replacement for HID. LED has come and gone.


Wow, I hate that they don't even bother trying to hide the fact they're fuckin' sleezy salesman. I hate the way this came about, but I was actually curious about what you thought of LED's. Now I know, lol. I had heard a few good things about the Stealth Grow lights from a buddy, particularly the Veg light. But with those things being something like 1,500 bucks a pop I couldn't imagine ever running a grow with them unless they were proven to be top notch.


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## mellokitty (May 12, 2011)

if you want to pick one of their brains, i just happen to have a Stealth spammer on my garden thread.


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## TheLastWood (May 12, 2011)

You know there peddling an inferior product when they turn it into a numbers game, by spamming. "If I put this msg on 20 forums and 2000 ppm read it ill sell 5"


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## medicine21 (May 12, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> The worst 2 I know of are the 357 Magnums and the 8ISIS-FX1's. Those 2 lights barely even promote growth.


I am curious to hear about your experience with these lights if you don't mind sharing it.


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## gstringer (May 12, 2011)

Good sales pitch CG +REP for you.


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## NDO (May 12, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> if you want to pick one of their brains, i just happen to have a Stealth spammer on my garden thread.


Thanks Kitty, I'll take a look...I've done some research on the Stealth Grows as well but was curious what, if anything, CG had heard. I'm just looking into some different lighting to maybe mix things up a bit. I was also looking into induction growing as well, possibly the Pro Series 400 watter from inda-gro, so I'm definitely looking forward to CG's test with those. From what I gather, I here they work pretty well in Veg but not so much in Bloom. I suppose we'll see soon...


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## b.g. (May 12, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I the predators helped, I couldn't tell. We're back to spraying. I've found that the Ortho Petrolium Oil works the best. It actually kills the eggs. We alternate that with Aza-Max, and a Pyrethium bomb in the Veg room every 2 weeks. We stop all spraying 3 weeks into bloom. We're hoping that the new plants will have enough oil on/in them to deter the mites in the last 5-7 weeks (the Laughganis take 10 weeks).
> 
> I have had the exact night time CO2 problem. I chose to vent at the start of lights out. But, I'm not sure if it was a problem. I would worry more about any time you have elevated CO2 levels during lights on...even an hour. The plants get addicted to the highest level they experience. If you ran 1500 ppm, and then went to 1000, your plants would grow slower than if they never had CO2 at all. I learned that first hand. So, the 1700 ppm time could be getting your plants "used to" that level, and then not maximizing growth during the 1500 ppm times.
> 
> ...


Thats interesting with the two room experiment....I have always seen better yield with higher ppm,,but its hard to tell there are so many different variables taking place....Did he run both those rooms at same temp?I have noticed with higher ppm they seem to like higher temps,,but again i might have been higher as well when making that assumption......

I think im gonna just ride it out with the high nighttime ppm and wait and see what happens...I was mainly worried about not getting enough oxygen with the high nightime ppm but like i said they look great so far...

This grow is a 20 hood in a long narrow space....The gen is the hydrogen pro...recirculating with a 1/10 chiller ....the space is about 10x40....It seems to work good so far...Im thinking about putting the ice cap attachment on it for even more cooling...But all in all it definitely is pulling heat out of the air....i have a sentinel controlling it...

As far as the 10000 ppm mite blast.....my 1 friend says it killed all the mites,,my other friend says it didnt kill them all,,and my third friend that blasted 10000 ppm says it didnt kill the mites but it almost killed him....Then again i think he was hungover from the night before...A big whiff of orange juice would have probably made him throw up and pass out that day.....


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## MrEDuck (May 12, 2011)

Bummer the predator mites didn't finish the job. Although it makes sense they wouldn't because many predator/prey systems in nature do that. Prey starts going away predators die, predators die off and prey comes back.
I hope you finish the little bastards soon. They're fucking awful little things.


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## mr.smileyface (May 12, 2011)

Hey CG ive got a question for you. I want others to learn so i didnt pm. 
Do you think its a good idea to run a CO2 burner with co2 controller on a reverse thermostat?. A basic oil filled thermostat, but on a heating setting. And set to turn off when your room hits 29c, no matter what the co2 levels. 
Also my store owner told me not to run my sulpher vaporizer when the co2 controller is on. Unforantly my co2 controller is close to my sulpher. But i run the sulpher for 45 minutes before the lights go on while the controller is off. Im just wondering why He said not to.


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## mr.smileyface (May 12, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> It very known that mites build a amunity to it, the adults eat it and before they die they lay eggs and the new born
> Sport a bit of a amunity. As generation go by that amunity grow stronger then you end up with a super mite,
> Why they say use several different things to fight them.


I heard of it. I just dont believe it because their offspring are gonna eat it to. Just dont let them get to that population. You have to add it on your check list. I use azamax twice and always got rid of the problem before it started. Its like raising the lights to me. Its gotta be done or your gonna cook your plants. Maybe the mites are marching in and you just see new mites. Everyones grow is differnt i guess. 
what you think about mixing the sprays? When azamax stops working i probly do that. But i just see to good of results to switch atm.


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## collective gardener (May 13, 2011)

I don't know why the bugs didn't work. They were in the jar for sure...we saw them. Maybe the infestation was too far along. Also, we used the Cali bugs and the other ones are better. It's just that the Cali bugs can take low RH, and the others can't. Just raising my PH a little put Powdery Mildew on just about every plant. I'm so pissed. I haven't had PM in YEARS because my RH is ALWAYS <40%. Now, I raise it to help out pred bugs and, not only do the pred bugs not work, I end up with PM as well. 

I'm back to square one. Dropped a Doktor Doom bomb in the veg room yesterday. Keep sparaying with varied oils through week 3 of bloom. Drop another bomb in 10 days. Getting some of that magic water. Hell...what a shitty deal. I just want to build new DWC systems and test some lights.


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## Wolverine97 (May 13, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> I am curious to hear about your experience with these lights if you don't mind sharing it.


Really? His reply didn't tell you enough?


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## TheLastWood (May 13, 2011)

Poor gardener . I feel bad for you. Bet ur really cursing the place you got those clones. 

Well ur still doin a great job man. 

I think you will get em with the co2. I've heard it works. Just gotta be careful,


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## medicine21 (May 13, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> The worst 2 I know of are the 357 Magnums and the 8ISIS-FX1's.





medicine21 said:


> I am curious to hear about your experience with these lights if you don't mind sharing it.





Wolverine97 said:


> Really? His reply didn't tell you enough?


I am not sure why you feel the need to answer questions that are not directed at you... I was hoping CG would share some details of what he tried to do with the lights (coverage area, plant size, veg time) and then why he didn't think they performed (poor veg growth, stretching, poor bud formation, low yield, longer flowering period, etc...)

I am not an LED fanboy, but I saw some real results with both the ISIS and the Magnums now and simply curious why it didn't work out for CG.


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## collective gardener (May 14, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> I am not sure why you feel the need to answer questions that are not directed at you... I was hoping CG would share some details of what he tried to do with the lights (coverage area, plant size, veg time) and then why he didn't think they performed (poor veg growth, stretching, poor bud formation, low yield, longer flowering period, etc...)
> 
> I am not an LED fanboy, but I saw some real results with both the ISIS and the Magnums now and simply curious why it didn't work out for CG.


Medicine, I think Wolverine was pointing out the obvious. I've never used these stupid lights. I was responding to spam with spam. I'm sick of LED spammers, so I make them feel unwelcome by talking shit about their lights in particular. I went to that guy's profile and 42 of his total 42 posts were all cut and paste spam messages about his LED grow. AND, the grow looks pretty shitty. So, once again, for the record: 357 Magnum LED's and the 8ISIS-FX-1's LED's are some of the worst on the market....spectrum is all wrong. When one burns out after about 2 weeks of service, it takes your household computers with it...some sort of LED energy surge.

Now, I'm going to sign up where he has his little LED grow posted and post my opinion there.


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## collective gardener (May 14, 2011)

mr.smileyface said:


> Hey CG ive got a question for you. I want others to learn so i didnt pm.
> Do you think its a good idea to run a CO2 burner with co2 controller on a reverse thermostat?. A basic oil filled thermostat, but on a heating setting. And set to turn off when your room hits 29c, no matter what the co2 levels.
> Also my store owner told me not to run my sulpher vaporizer when the co2 controller is on. Unforantly my co2 controller is close to my sulpher. But i run the sulpher for 45 minutes before the lights go on while the controller is off. Im just wondering why He said not to.


I have no idea on both counts. Why put the CO2 gen on a thermo? Is it getting too hot? And, I don't use sulfur...never have. Until I increased the RH to help the Preds, I've never had a spot of PM. Now, I have some spots, but the RH is staying under 40%...24hrs/day. This, for me, has totally prevented PM.


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## mr.smileyface (May 14, 2011)

Yea i figure the temps are more important than the co2. Since it doesnt know how hot your room is.
I guess you just have to find the right numbers. Really? no sulpher. weird. why not


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## collective gardener (May 14, 2011)

mr.smileyface said:


> Yea i figure the temps are more important than the co2. Since it doesnt know how hot your room is.
> I guess you just have to find the right numbers. Really? no sulpher. weird. why not


As I stated above, keeping my bloom room under 40% RH 24 hrs/day has always prevented PM, which would be the only reason to use sulphur. I also have my "canary in a coal mine" little OG that will get PM long before anything else. If she gets it, I just lower the RH a little. I know that my growing brothers and sisters north of the border have serious PM problems and most use sulphur. Here in So Cal, it seems that keeping the bloom room RH under 40% will keep it under control. All of my growing pals here adjust RH to control PM.

When I was using the predators I was advised to raise my RH to help the predators take hold. With the higher RH came the PM on the OG. We endured it for a while, hoping the predators would get a foot hold and start wiping out the spider mites before the PM started to spread. Well, the predators never really seemed to do much, and the PM started to spread to other plants in late bloom. So, we dropped the RH to 25%, removed ALL buds and ALL leaves with PM, kissed our predators goodbye, and started spraying again. Between the Dr Doom Bomb in the veg room, the Aza Max and Ortho Petrolium Oil on all plants before week 3 of bloom, and the manual removal of all affected leaves, we have knocked the mites WAY back. I'm also going to get some of that charged water stuff for the late blooming plants. It feels much better to be actually DOING something about the mites rather than just waiting and hoping for the predators to work. After the Dr Doom bomb, Helper D inspected 20 affected leaves and found only dead mites. We're going to drop 3 more bombs 10 days apart and keep hammering them with the sprays.

I promise to get some pics up in a few days. We have 5 beautiful Laughganis at week 9 that are breaking branches from the bud weight...a problem I love to have. I harvested Godzilla and his buddy today. Those DWC plants had zero larf (un-usable buds) on them. Their size would allow us to have 48 Bubba plants in the bloom room. Needless to say, I'm very anxious to see how much they weigh, as this will give us a good estimate as to the yield we can anticipate out of the Bubbas. We have yet to try a run of the Laughganis in DWC. Although everyone LOVES the product, we will be running less than 25% of this strain. The 10 week bloom doesn't bother me as much as the ridiculous amount of pruning needed to keep them growing right. Anyways, pics to come tomorrow for sure. After that, I'm taking 10 days off so will not be posting. Just don't think something bad happened.


----------



## mr.smileyface (May 15, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> As I stated above, keeping my bloom room under 40% RH 24 hrs/day has always prevented PM, which would be the only reason to use sulphur. I also have my "canary in a coal mine" little OG that will get PM long before anything else. If she gets it, I just lower the RH a little. I know that my growing brothers and sisters north of the border have serious PM problems and most use sulphur. Here in So Cal, it seems that keeping the bloom room RH under 40% will keep it under control. All of my growing pals here adjust RH to control PM.
> 
> When I was using the predators I was advised to raise my RH to help the predators take hold. With the higher RH came the PM on the OG. We endured it for a while, hoping the predators would get a foot hold and start wiping out the spider mites before the PM started to spread. Well, the predators never really seemed to do much, and the PM started to spread to other plants in late bloom. So, we dropped the RH to 25%, removed ALL buds and ALL leaves with PM, kissed our predators goodbye, and started spraying again. Between the Dr Doom Bomb in the veg room, the Aza Max and Ortho Petrolium Oil on all plants before week 3 of bloom, and the manual removal of all affected leaves, we have knocked the mites WAY back. I'm also going to get some of that charged water stuff for the late blooming plants. It feels much better to be actually DOING something about the mites rather than just waiting and hoping for the predators to work. After the Dr Doom bomb, Helper D inspected 20 affected leaves and found only dead mites. We're going to drop 3 more bombs 10 days apart and keep hammering them with the sprays.
> 
> I promise to get some pics up in a few days. We have 5 beautiful Laughganis at week 9 that are breaking branches from the bud weight...a problem I love to have. I harvested Godzilla and his buddy today. Those DWC plants had zero larf (un-usable buds) on them. Their size would allow us to have 48 Bubba plants in the bloom room. Needless to say, I'm very anxious to see how much they weigh, as this will give us a good estimate as to the yield we can anticipate out of the Bubbas. We have yet to try a run of the Laughganis in DWC. Although everyone LOVES the product, we will be running less than 25% of this strain. The 10 week bloom doesn't bother me as much as the ridiculous amount of pruning needed to keep them growing right. Anyways, pics to come tomorrow for sure. After that, I'm taking 10 days off so will not be posting. Just don't think something bad happened.


Yea im north of the border and get powdery mildew if i dont use sulpher everyday for an hour. I think it helps control bugs to. Since the sulpher is on every part of the plant the bugs probly get a taste of it. My day time Rh is under 40 but cant seem to get night rh that low. Lowest i can get it is 60% at night. I think kush is a suspect to pm. If i dont prevent it i always get it. My outside Rh is rarely below 70%. 
In my eyes id rather burn sulpher than deal with sprays/mildew near the end. And i always spray before i get bugs.
I stop using it at week 6 btw. PM is in the plant before it shows and gets worse after a feeding/when the medium is dry. 
I have to burn it because i overcrowd my plants to get the maximum yield.


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## rosecitypapa (May 15, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I do my math a bit different.
> 
> I have a couple old aluminum fuel tanks I removed from a boat in my shop. They both have 1 1/2" fills. I connected the tanks fill nipples together with 1 1/2" hose. I then put a garden hose in one tank full blast from the household pressure in the shop. Since the tanks were cut in half to remove them, I could see the water go from the first tank to the second through the 1 1/2" hose. At full blast the water level in the 1st tank was only about an inch higher than the second the whole time. Even IF I was using the same volume of water (which I'm not), the volume will be flowing through 8 pipes, not just 1. A small water level difference is fine. In fact, it could vary several inches with no effect on the system. I'm thinking of supplying the buckets with solution via a ribbon flow AND a couple spray fittings. A 30 micron filter should keep clogs to a minimum. The return water to res will be under water. To maintain O2 saturation in the res, I'm thinking a second small pump with elevated sprayers blasting the surface with a dozen streams of water.
> 
> ...



I like your hands-on visual math - makes perfect sense to me. One of the benefits of hydro is all the experimenting, designing, building and tinkering that goes on. Your to-do list is great, growth driven! 

It's unfortunate about the mites and pm issues. When using Azamax, do you only use it as a spray? Have you tried watering with it to be taken up by the plants systemically? I'm currently doing a greenhouse ghetto grow and just started using that product this way. Hopefully, that and the increase of silica in my nutrient mix will keep these pests at bay. I had tried the ladybug route, it was fun having them everywhere but I think they just slowed the mites down as opposed to eradicating them.

On an esoteric note, an obscure field I came across while researching pest management is Radionics. At first blush, it looks like some new-age hocus-pocus gadgetry but in researching it, learned that it had it's roots in agriculture. They had done trials to demonstrate it's effectiveness with pests and it worked unexpectedly well. Since there isn't sufficient scientific proof on why it works, it hasn't gotten into the mainstream. Once I have my grow a bit more on autopilot and not building as much, I'm gonna build a machine and give it a go. It's along the line of using vibratory physics and modulating frequency to some effect.

Thanks for the tip about Kitty's, I'm psyched about vertical growing!


----------



## TheLastWood (May 15, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> I like your hands-on visual math - makes perfect sense to me. One of the benefits of hydro is all the experimenting, designing, building and tinkering that goes on. Your to-do list is great, growth driven!
> 
> It's unfortunate about the mites and pm issues. When using Azamax, do you only use it as a spray? Have you tried watering with it to be taken up by the plants systemically? I'm currently doing a greenhouse ghetto grow and just started using that product this way. Hopefully, that and the increase of silica in my nutrient mix will keep these pests at bay. I had tried the ladybug route, it was fun having them everywhere but I think they just slowed the mites down as opposed to eradicating them.
> 
> ...


Have you ever seen the battery powered mosquito deterents? Uses a sound frequency we can't hear to keep them away. Maybe along the same lines.


----------



## onegreenthumb (May 15, 2011)

Hey I have had a big problem with spider mites, and used all the bullshit, hundreds of dollars and for what, only to slow them down. These little bastards are tough. Then I was talking to one of the salesmen at my local hydro shop and he told me that one of the guys that works their makes a solution to kill spidermites! I said how much? 50 a gallon he said. I thought, that is steep, but fk it I am desprite now. He mixed right thier in a gallon of water with essential oils and stuff( that main smell is of rosemary). I tried it right away thinking that it will do no better than any other store bought solution. I dowsed my plants completely, and no SHIT have not seen another mite since, and I had an infestation! He said to do two applications one week apart, which means today for me again. I have not seen a mite but will spray again for prevention. It does not harm plants at all, this stuff is seriously amazing.


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## medicine21 (May 16, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I've never used these stupid lights. I was responding to spam with spam. So, once again, for the record: 357 Magnum LED's and the 8ISIS-FX-1's LED's are some of the worst on the market....spectrum is all wrong. When one burns out after about 2 weeks of service, it takes your household computers with it...some sort of LED energy surge.


Indeed, that was a spammer. I checked the posts too. That doesn't make the lights bad though. Anyway, I don't want to pollute/sidetrack your thread more, I was just surprised that you would offer your opinion on something you've never tried. Never heard anyone reporting an "LED energy surge"... If you're being sarcastic with your LED statements, then my bad, it went over my head...


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## rosecitypapa (May 16, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Have you ever seen the battery powered mosquito deterents? Uses a sound frequency we can't hear to keep them away. Maybe along the same lines.


It does sound similar. Do those mosquito things work? 




onegreenthumb said:


> Hey I have had a big problem with spider mites, and used all the bullshit, hundreds of dollars and for what, only to slow them down. These little bastards are tough. Then I was talking to one of the salesmen at my local hydro shop and he told me that one of the guys that works their makes a solution to kill spidermites! I said how much? 50 a gallon he said. I thought, that is steep, but fk it I am desprite now. He mixed right thier in a gallon of water with essential oils and stuff( that main smell is of rosemary). I tried it right away thinking that it will do no better than any other store bought solution. I dowsed my plants completely, and no SHIT have not seen another mite since, and I had an infestation! He said to do two applications one week apart, which means today for me again. I have not seen a mite but will spray again for prevention. It does not harm plants at all, this stuff is seriously amazing.


That's great, a list of ingredients would be useful.


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## MrEDuck (May 16, 2011)

I can't wait to see what Godzilla yields.


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## pinksensa (May 16, 2011)

HOLY fook I am on page 55 all read in one day and well worth the read....I will complete the thread for sure!!! Curious real quick if you say set 45 as your max # of plants in the bloom room...like in post #291 in the pic of the bloom room is that 45 of your 99 plants.

Incredible work but you know this, man!!


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## TheLastWood (May 18, 2011)

How's it goin cg&#8230;? What's new?


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## thekingsbud (May 18, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I am done playing nice nice with the mites. I need to find someone in another state to recieve a bottle of Floramite and Avid for me and send it to my PO box. These 2 seem to be the #1 way to fist pump a mite into therapy...then death. Contact kill on eggs and adults for 28 days with Floramite. Expensive as hell...I don't care. I had a good month that could have been better w/o the bugs. And, I don't give one rat's ass about how toxic they are at this point. Let me kill them all...THEN, I'll move on to safe controls for the FEW mites that may show up. This has gone on too long, and I've spent too much time and $$$ trying to make the granola heads happy. Now I'll just say "Floramie is a molecule...molecules are natural...Floramite is natural." Die you mite fuckers, and I hope it hurts.


Hey CG read your thread over the last few days and WOW!!!! Impressive. I can completely relate to your problem with mites what a pain in the butt. In the last three years that I've been buying clones from supposedly reputable sources in the North Bay I've had them everywhere. I had a 14 kw crop completely destroyed from mites in a cge environment stupid clones were infested. It was the first and needed to be profitable for investors. I was forced to sell all equipment to reimburse the few people involved, Needless to say I was the one who took the loss. Three grows later after almost going back to seed and taking the countless hours to find a good Mother that can produce what my patients are looking for, I was running 20kw also in a cge with co2 I was in a position where I didn't have time to start from seed so I, in all my wisdom, went back to the same place that I got the original clones from. For large orders they want half the money up front then you come back in two hours and they fill your order so you can't really inspect them there. when I got home and inspected the babies I realized that they were infested, a friend got me a very small amount of the Avid about two weeks in, I sprayed 8 trays with avid and figured I could manage the other two trays in a separate area with neem oil and bombs. Those two trays ended up being a total loss i mean they looked good but because I sprayed them with so much crap for the mites when they dried out they tasted like crap. But the other 8 trays that I sprayed the Avid on turned out amazing as they should have. Ive always been told not to use them at any point during flower because its very powerful.


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## ulnair (May 22, 2011)

Wow I just read every page of this, absolutely amazing information! Thank you taking us on this magical journey with you collective!


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## kickflipdipstik (May 22, 2011)

Cool shit man!


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## NDO (May 26, 2011)

Hey CG! What's the word? How's everything going with the op?


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## Wolverine97 (May 26, 2011)

Chadness said:


> Heya CG,
> Long time lurker and have read this entire thread from day one.
> i had to jump in about the mite problem.
> 
> ...


----------



## immagrower (May 26, 2011)

one.
hundred.
nine.
pages.

It took me 4 days to read this entire thing! 

I had a lot of things to comment on during this thread, but sadly most have slipped my mind. I will say this though, great thread / great grow(s) / great info / and best of all, a great OP. Keep up the good work, I know your patients are grateful for your services.


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## hellraizer30 (May 26, 2011)

Cg been off for a grip hope all is well


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## MasterS (May 27, 2011)

CollectiveGardener: Just spent... much too long reading the thread >.< While my brain is fried, I wanna still take the time to thank you for not only the work you put into the legit and honorable medical marijuana community but the wonderful attitude and knowledge you're sharing with this online community. Since my state, Arizona, recently got into the medical marijuana scene I am taking on this old hobby and turning it into a profession that helps others. I was avid when Overgrow existed but took a break after its downfall. Thank you for your professionalism. 

Learning for life, S.


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (May 27, 2011)

There is nothing sarcastic about the "Orson". It is usually reserved for wicked grows but is appropriate here as well.


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## Sr. Verde (May 27, 2011)

This thread has become over run ! 


CG, if your out there.. like this post so I know all is well!


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## BigGMoney (May 27, 2011)

So many people are doing this and getting busted here in SO Cal...

I give you mad props, CG, for having the cajones to do this, but posting?

Don't get too comfortable behind those STATE authorized licenses....remember you live in the USA federales, too!

Good luck, mate, hope all is well and all patients got their well-deserved meds.


----------



## Wolverine97 (May 27, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> This thread has become over run !
> 
> 
> CG, if your out there.. like this post so I know all is well!


I think he left, I've been wondering too. I haven't seen him post anywhere...


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## MasterS (May 27, 2011)

... he mentioned on the 15th that he was leaving for a bit.


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## MasterS (May 27, 2011)

I went to find it for you and apparently I was wrong, it was the 14th  haha "*I promise to get some pics up in a few days. We have 5 beautiful Laughganis at week 9 that are breaking branches from the bud weight...a problem I love to have. I harvested Godzilla and his buddy today. Those DWC plants had zero larf (un-usable buds) on them. Their size would allow us to have 48 Bubba plants in the bloom room. Needless to say, I'm very anxious to see how much they weigh, as this will give us a good estimate as to the yield we can anticipate out of the Bubbas. We have yet to try a run of the Laughganis in DWC. Although everyone LOVES the product, we will be running less than 25% of this strain. The 10 week bloom doesn't bother me as much as the ridiculous amount of pruning needed to keep them growing right. Anyways, pics to come tomorrow for sure. After that, I'm taking 10 days off so will not be posting. Just don't think something bad happened."*

I have the benefit of reading the whole damn thread at once though >.<


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## docrock (May 31, 2011)

Don't worry yet, CG stated a few days ago he was going to take a few days off from posting on here, needed a break with the mites and all I guess.


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## hellraizer30 (May 31, 2011)

I think cg left with all the other members to the new forum


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (May 31, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> I think cg left with all the other members to the new forum


Not that i am aware of.


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## hellraizer30 (May 31, 2011)

I could be rong


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (May 31, 2011)

I heard there were 2 migration sites, I'm only avtive in one he could be at the other one, my guess is he is just taking a break. Researchkitty did the same thing.


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## hellraizer30 (May 31, 2011)

I know of one site think you could let me know what other site it is


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## yum114 (Jun 1, 2011)

what are the sites?


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## Sr. Verde (Jun 1, 2011)

Could you guys just pm? or visitor message?


this is collectives thread after all, even if he's not here you shouldn't clutter it.


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (Jun 1, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> Could you guys just pm? or visitor message?
> 
> 
> this is collectives thread after all, even if he's not here you shouldn't clutter it.


And your comment on our discussion is somehow not clutter?


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## insomnia47 (Jun 1, 2011)

i hope this guy aint in the big house, he's got balls of steel running 20k's


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## jyermum (Jun 1, 2011)

insomnia47 said:


> i hope this guy aint in the big house, he's got balls of steel running 20k's




go phuck yourself. keep that BuIl$hit away from here.


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## insomnia47 (Jun 1, 2011)

jyermum said:


> go phuck yourself. keep that BuIl$hit away from here.


sorry for the bad vibe, i wish and hope the best for this dude, and he's got an operation taht i dream of.

....but.... unfortunately it is the reality of our hobby, and everyone's gotta be careful, use good judgement and watch their backs if we wanna overgrow the gov'ment

else the gov'ment will do what they do best.... fuck us up the arse sans lube.....

best of luck, and best wishes to all the growers on RIU!


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## hellraizer30 (Jun 1, 2011)

insomnia47 said:


> sorry for the bad vibe, i wish and hope the best for this dude, and he's got an operation taht i dream of.
> 
> ....but.... unfortunately it is the reality of our hobby, and everyone's gotta be careful, use good judgement and watch their backs if we wanna overgrow the gov'ment
> 
> ...


I agree this is the world we live in


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## jyermum (Jun 1, 2011)

Yes. Unfortunately it is as we all well know so it goes without saying. Best not said in the 1st place especially since as we all know the legal climate.


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## hellraizer30 (Jun 1, 2011)

People are going to say what they want to say its a open forum and we do know the legal climate
Dont understand your issue with what has been said.


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## jyermum (Jun 1, 2011)

Bad mojo..


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## collective gardener (Jun 5, 2011)

I'm not in the Big House. All's well. Just needed an RUI break. Made some big room changes. Tossed a bunch of plants (PM and SM). Slowly emptying rooms for toal sterilization. PM and Mites just got too out of control. I know when to cut my losses...it is now. I have a huge batch of Bubba Clones ready to come back after big cleanup. Good to have friends with big grow ops.

I post later. Thanks all for concern.


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## Sr. Verde (Jun 5, 2011)

Good to hear man.


Good to get a clean start, as long as you pulled something then it wasn't a total loss 


Going to be good to just bleach and sanitize everything.


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## TheLastWood (Jun 5, 2011)

Yaay glad ur back buddy!


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## jyermum (Jun 5, 2011)

Bugs suck hit 'em hard so they tell their friends not to come back. Can't wait to see the new setup.


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## hellraizer30 (Jun 5, 2011)

Nice to see you back and sorry to hear about the bugs hope all turns out well


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## MrEDuck (Jun 6, 2011)

I hope you had a good break from RIU CG. I'm sorry to hear about the pm and sm problems man. That's just beat. I hope you can get back on track quickly.


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## slk (Jun 7, 2011)

I found Floramite, it is not cheap 40.00 for 2 oz's but it does work. I was using my vacuum to controle them.
Good luck


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## hellraizer30 (Jun 8, 2011)

slk said:


> I found Floramite, it is not cheap 40.00 for 2 oz's but it does work. I was using my vacuum to controle them.
> Good luck


Thought floramite wasnt sold in the US?


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## Sr. Verde (Jun 8, 2011)

CG you should make a new thread with your new stuff..... I like being subscribed to your threads but every time I see a new post it isn't you.


IF you are making a new thread... that is..  good luck


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## jyermum (Jun 8, 2011)

I thought the floramite was California only. I still have a few bottles of Floramite SC from a few years back. Luckly I havent needed it since. Is there a shelf life on that stuff?


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## SmokeAL0t (Jun 9, 2011)

Sorry to hear about the bugs.... hope the Bubba is pest free.....


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## immagrower (Jun 29, 2011)

Any updates on this badboy?


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## hellraizer30 (Jun 29, 2011)

this threads been dead for over a month, they all moved to a new forum


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## MasterS (Jun 29, 2011)

Shhh it's a secret  haha


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## matatan (Jun 30, 2011)

whats that forum?


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## hellraizer30 (Jun 30, 2011)

I thought I knew but there not on there either


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## Sr. Verde (Jun 30, 2011)

-subscribe


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## hellraizer30 (Jun 30, 2011)

Sr. Verde said:


> -subscribe


yah me to..


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## bigtom86 (Jul 6, 2011)

sad face...


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## docrock (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm very sorry to hear that, keep us posted.


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## gstringer (Jul 8, 2011)

FOOK come on man SHIT i loved this thred this sucks dont leeve us hanging man


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## lostNug (Jul 19, 2011)

In california you can grow any amount the doctor prescribes you. usually they keep it at 99 and below for the federal reasons.


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## hellraizer30 (Jul 19, 2011)

K and your point?


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## NDO (Jul 20, 2011)

lostNug said:


> In california you can grow any amount the doctor prescribes you. usually they keep it at 99 and below for the federal reasons.


Lol, I'm guessing this was meant for another thread. We covered that in this thread on Day 2.


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## Wolverine97 (Jul 20, 2011)

Guys, I'm worried that the inductive light guy was actually LEO and set up CG. I haven't seen him anywhere online for a long ass time now...


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## hellraizer30 (Jul 20, 2011)

well he was legal on state levels so I would assume if you was under hs limit the feds wouldnt get involved


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## Wolverine97 (Jul 21, 2011)

I know, but so were several of the peeps who've been raided in recent years. Hopefully he just got tired of maintaining his journal...


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## NDO (Jul 21, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I know, but so were several of the peeps who've been raided in recent years. Hopefully he just got tired of maintaining his journal...


Much like you guys I'm sure, I've been following this thread since the beginning. It really just sounded like, especially towards the end, that he was completely burnt out with the grow and trying to keep up with the picture updates and questions on here daily. A bad case of mites will do that to somebody. I'm sure he's all good and hopefully will come back here and fill us in on what's been going down one day. Cheers.


----------



## dankog (Jul 21, 2011)

I hope everything is going ok. If you still have SM issues, a friend of mine recommended going to a bridal store, and buying a big batch of real butterflies. If you release them in your grow room, they'll eat all the spider mites. 

We hope everything is going ok with your new batch. 

Hope all is well!

Warmly,
Dankog


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## collective gardener (Jul 24, 2011)

I'm back. Sorry for the LONG delay in posting. NDO hit it on the money. I was overworked and too stressed to keep up with the posting. I am NOT in the joint. The grow is still up and rocking better than ever. We made some major changes that I'll go into later with a new batch of pics. The last couple months Helper D has been running the grow while I tended to my other business. Now that the mites are gone and I'm caught up with my day job, I plan to get you guys caught up on what has been going on with the grow. 

In a nutshell, I was not happy with the yield we were getting. Trying to keep our plant numbers down was really holding us back. So, we signed up quite a few new patients and went back to growing the way I always have...lots of small plants. We are now trying to strike a balance between maximum yield and minimum legal risk. Our lawyer advises us to grow no more than 10 plants for every patient (several of our patients have 99 plant recs). Our current "sweet spot" is around 2 sq ft/plant. 1 sq ft/plant gives a little better yield, but not enough to justify twice the plant numbers. While I'd rather not discuss actual yields, I will say we have more than doubled our output.

Smaller plants also gave us more options for growing styles. I have always liked rockwool, but the large plants we used to grow don't do well in it. Now we're back to rockwool and loving it. At first we used 4 inch blocks transplanted into 2 gallon pots filled with rockwool croutons. This worked quite well. In an effort to save some transplant time, I ran 20 plants in 4 inch blocks transplanted onto 6 inch Hugo blocks. These performed just as well as the 2 gallon pots with WAY less labor. From now on all plants will be done this way. We still hand water once per day.

We gave up on the Lavander x Afgahni x Purple Kush strain. It required way too much pruning, was a bitch to trim, and the mites LOVED it. I'll miss the plant because it was great smoke that everyone loved. The Bubba is still our mainstay, but we have 2 new ladies in the mix. One is a new Bubba from a breeder friend. He bred the Bubba with an OG Kush and then back crossed it with the Bubba 3 times. The flavor is better than the old Bubba, and the high is fantastic. The other strain is Tahoe OG x Chemdog. Right now we only have 3 small cuts we are growing into mothers. I watched them grow in a friends op and sampled the finished product. This is the plant I've been searching for my whole life. It may just be the perfect OG. It roots in 7-10 days, finishes in 60, and yields great for an OG. The smell and flavor are classic OG Kush without the slow growth and small yields that plague so many great OG's. At first my friend refused to give me some cuts. Can't say I blame him. But, I wanted them so bad that I made him an offer he couldn't refuse. 

So, how did we get rid of the mites from hell? We started over. I threw away every plant in bloom and sterilized the room. They were just too established. When we stopped spraying to allow our predator mites to do their job, the mite population exploded. By the time we realized the predators were not going to work it was too late. It hurt to trash what would have been over 10lbs, but there was no other way. We are now 100% mite free. To keep it that way we are dipping the plants in Spectracide With Insect Control. This stuff is great. I have always used the old Spectracide for PM control. The new formula adds an insectacide. We dip once when the plants establish in the 4 inch block and again prior to going into bloom. We then spray one time at week 2 of bloom. That's it. The Spectracide does not stunt the plants at all, and takes care of bugs and PM in one spray. Spraying the media also prevents fungus gnats. I even tested it by spraying a branch on a plant in week 4 of bloom. None of the pistils burned and that branch finished just like the rest. Fortunately, spraying in week 2 has been doing the job. I really don't like to spray a plant showing pistils. 

All in all, things are good in the op. I'll take some pics for you guys. Now I have to go and check out your grows.


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## drgreentm (Jul 24, 2011)

whats up CG glad all is well and your not in the slammer, also glad things are doing great in the op. looking forward to the pics.


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## hellraizer30 (Jul 24, 2011)

fing awsome CG glad your back and not somewhere else


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## mellokitty (Jul 24, 2011)

*standing ovation*


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## Luger187 (Jul 24, 2011)

man tossing 10lbs doesnt sound fun!

what kind of nutes r u using now?


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## C.Indica (Jul 24, 2011)

CG is back!
Glad you got to take a break, it's good for your health to avoid some stress now and again.

10lbs is a lot to us, but for someone on a scale like yours it's just produce..
I know it's for patients who could really use it, but no need to beat yourself up for it.
It's much better to be clean then sorry.

Please get us some pictures of your Media, I'm curious as to how all this transplanting and different medium combinations work out.

How tall are your plants before and after flower?


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## collective gardener (Jul 25, 2011)

Thanks gang for the support. Yes it's very tough to toss all that green. I had to be convinced by another grower that it was the only way. You guys should have seen the look on Helper D's face when I said "Throw away every plant in this room today". Speaking of Helper D, he has an assistant...Helper G. G has worked for me on and off for 12 years. She's a very hard worker and all hell with a pair of shears. The 2 of them make a kick ass team. 

I'm still using Cutting Edge 3 part nutes. Over the last 20 years I've tried several nute combos and always come back to Cutting Edge or GH. These simple, effective, and cheap nutes allow us to concebtrate on more important issues...like atmosphere and canopy shape. I think people waste alot of time and money playing with all the nutes they see advertised. I know I did. In addition to the CE 3 part, I add CE Mag Amp (for some xtra Mg and Sulfur) and Botanicare Cal Mag (I always add this when using RO water). That's it. We run veg at 1100 ppm and bloom between 1300 and 1500 ppm. PH is between 5.5 and 6.2. Every Sunday we flush heavily with pure RO water. We feed with a transition mix in bloom until the foilage turns dark green (about 2-3 weeks). This indicates plenty of N within the plant. Then, we switch to pure bloom mix. Week 7 I reduce the ppm to 500. Week 8 is all flush with pure RO. 

The plants are approx. 14 inches tall when we bloom them. They finish around 24 inches. All plants are topped one time. I plan to run a test tray with un-topped plants spaced very close. We remove 1 or 2 large fan leaves when the plant goes into bloom...usually from the upper middle of plant. After the stretch, and when pistils are showing, I remove a few more. We never remove leaves on the outside of the plant. We only try to allow light down into the center of the plant. Around week 6 I start removing several fan leaves. With the buds getting dense, I like to get more circulation through the foilage by removing leaves. By the time we harvest, there are very few fan leaves left. This helps to ward off PM and other molds and mildews. It's also less work trimming.

At harvest we remove all the buds from the stems. They are perfectly trimmed and placed into a round mesh hanging drying rack. (the kind you buy). The drying shack is kept at 50% RH and around 75 degrees. When the buds are crisp on the outside, yet moist in the middle, they are placed in a paper bag overnight. Then, another day in the rack, and another night in the bag. After that, they are turkey bagged. If they are too wet, we dump them out for an hour in the drying shack...then back in the bag overnight. We are using Caliber 3 humidity gauges that fit inside the turkey bags. 55% is perfect for immediate sale, and 50% for long term storage. Having a gauge to tell you when they are ready is great. It allows us perfect consistancy. The entire process takes about 10 days...but can be done in 7.


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## Wolverine97 (Jul 25, 2011)

Well that's good to hear. I'm always leery of anyone offering something for free over the internet, especially in this field... Glad you're back.


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## jyermum (Jul 25, 2011)

Good to see you got back to production and back to basics. Rockwool and 3 part FTW


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## ENDLSCYCLE (Jul 26, 2011)

Woo Hoo!!! CG is back!!! What happened with the inductive lighting....I've been dying to know. Did you just scrap 'em???

Can't wait to see the new rockwool set up....so I'm guessing they're in flood tables?


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## collective gardener (Jul 26, 2011)

Endless,
I still have the inductive lighting. I, too, am interested in what it can do. It just got to a point where I had to get the grow 100% in order before trying different stuff. Our collective took a big cash hit with the mites and the startover. I am truly sorry to the guy who was kind enough to send me the lights for testing. We're now in a position to try some different stuff, and the inductive lighting is #1 on the list. Once we run two full crops through with the new style, expansion plans will be put into effect. The whole op was designed to be doubled in size. Our veg and clone room is big enough to support 3 of our bloom rooms. I have visions of another 400 sq ft bloom room lit with 100% inductive lighting. We're considering setting up a tent to see what a few big inductive lights can do. I was hesitant to try inductive lighting before when we were growing large plants. Now that we're growing small plants, light penetration is not so much an issue. If anyone has some links to some bigger inductive grows, I'd love to have a look. Helper D just wants us to get 20 more 1000 watt HPS and 10 more tons of air conditioning. Who knows...he may be right.

The plants are not on a flood table. They are on sloped tables covered with corrugated plastic that drains into a rain gutter that is pumped to the sink drain. All plants are hand watered once per day and heavily flushed with pure RO water once per week. I tried ebb and flow with rockwool 20 years ago and was not happy with the results. With the larger grows, drain to waste makes more sense to me. I don't like to have to maintain solution for a week or more. Also, have you guys ever seen what happens if a drain fails on an ebb and flow system and standing water soaks the roots overnight? It's a fucking nightmare. Plus, by hand watering every plant is looked at every day. With automated systems growers tend to get lazy (I do, anyway) and not visit the grow everyday. 

So, it looks like we'll be voting on whether or not to legalize recreational pot use once again here in Cali. Let's all read the proposed law very carefully before we vote one way or another.


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## TheLastWood (Jul 26, 2011)

Glad your back cg. 

Can't believe the laughganis are gone 

I'm growin tahoe og also. Jedi kush also (deathstar x sfv og). Gonna be throwin em into flower in a few weeks here.

So glad ur back man.


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## collective gardener (Jul 27, 2011)

Wood,
Great to hear from you, my man! Please, keep me updated on your Tahoe grow. I'm really curious to see how they respond in different enviro's. It's such a dainty little plant. In veg my Bubbas the same age look like they could swallow my Tahoes whole. Shoot me some pics of what you got going.

Yes, the Laughganis are gone. I layed some cuts on a friend before we trashed the last moms. So, the genetics are still available. It's my favorite med smoke still. I have a few ounces of buds and over an ounce of Kief from the last Laughgahni harvest for personal use. It's really all I smoke. I imagine we'll bring in a plant or 2 this winter for personal stash for me and some friends that prefer it. Ironically, my grower and weed broker friends who have access to tons of great smoke prefer the Laughgahni for personal stash above most strains. But, the buying public still wants that OG/Kush/Bubba line. Wierd, eh? The Laughgahni was never the most powerful, but had a quality to the high that was different than most weed out there. If it wasn't such a pain to grow and trim, I'd be dedicating 50% of my op to it. But, the Bubbas are just so much easier and command a better price overall.


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## TheLastWood (Jul 27, 2011)

Gotta give the ppl what they want man. Id love to try the laughgani sometime, if I'm ever in cali ill hit you up.

I love my tahoes tho. Ill send ya some pics later bud.

So glad ur back


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## collective gardener (Jul 27, 2011)

Here's a 4 week Bubba Mother. She's one of 5 large mothers we decided to bloom out as a part of going to way smaller plants.



This stuff is a lifesaver. Prevents and kills PM, as well as killing spider mites and fungus gnats. It's the only effective chemical I've tried that does not burn pistils if sprayed in bloom. 

The pics below show the new settup:
Pic 1. The 5 mothers we decided to bloom out. Future mothers will be smaller.
Pic 2. 50 Bubbas 10 days into blooming on an 8 x 8 tray under 4 - 1000 watt lights.
Pic 3. Closeup of a top from the 4 week blooming Bubba mother.
Pic 4. Top view of blooming Bubbas.
Pic 5. 50 Bubbas blooming.
Pic 6. 25 Bubbas in veg ready to be placed on Hugo Block.
Pic 7. Nice even canopy of the 50 bloomers
Pic 8. One of the 50 Bubbas pulled out for pick. Planted in rockwool croutons on 2 gal pot.
Pic 9. Future mothers: 3 old Bubba, 1 new Bubba, 3 Tahoe x Chemdog.
Pic 10. 50 rooted clones which will be vegged and take the place of the 5 mothers in bloom in 4 week.
Pic 11. Corner of 50 tray and 5 moms in bloom.
Pic 12. Bubba moms 4 weeks into bloom. These will yield around 1 lb/plant.

Sorry I had to do the pics this way. The simple uploader wasn't working so I had to upload as a group. Enjoy.


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## drgreentm (Jul 27, 2011)

beautiful rooms, impressive as always CG. im pretty interested in the inductive lighting, been looking into them for a little while now and havent really been able to find a good side by side grow journal so far, maybe i will just bite the bullet, grab one and try it out.

keep up the great work and happy growing.


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## C.Indica (Jul 27, 2011)

Looks beautiful, how old are the Mothers?
How do you not risk a fire with that clone box setup?

Can you put something next to the 50 tray for size? Like a bottle of wine or a basketball or something simple?

Amazing job, the fact that you all manage each and every one of those plants is intense. Keep at it!


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## hellraizer30 (Jul 27, 2011)

dam CG going back to what you know has paid off in a big way!!


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## collective gardener (Jul 27, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> beautiful rooms, impressive as always CG. im pretty interested in the inductive lighting, been looking into them for a little while now and havent really been able to find a good side by side grow journal so far, maybe i will just bite the bullet, grab one and try it out.
> 
> keep up the great work and happy growing.


Dr Green,
Thanks for the props. I've been scouring the web for some QUALITY info on inductive lighting and have come up empty handed. Lots of info from people clearly selling inductive lighting...they're so fucking obvious. Have not found one single good looking REAL grow with pics using induction lighting. Did find several real growers who tried them and were not impressed. Seeming more and more along the lines of LED's. I'm with you...may have to just shell out some cash and buy the biggest one made for a test run. I really want them to be great. Most commercial growers I know are very reluctant to change anything in their op...myself included. The thought of laying out 10k+ for lights that may give you a sub-standard yield is not too appealing. If anyone has a link to a REAL grow of a decent size using induction lights, I would love to see it.


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## collective gardener (Jul 27, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> Looks beautiful, how old are the Mothers?
> How do you not risk a fire with that clone box setup?
> 
> Can you put something next to the 50 tray for size? Like a bottle of wine or a basketball or something simple?
> ...


The big flowering mothers have been vegging for several months. We've taken hundreds of clones off of them and I removed the entire top foot off of each plant a couple times to keep them out of the lights...with hedge clippers!

I'm not really sure what you mean about a fire hazard. I mean, it's 2 regular clone domes with a flouro grow light over them. It probably has less fire potential than anything in the whole grow. It's really not much compared to the 200+ amps the big lights and the AC draw. What exactly is your concern?

There's a bunch of stuff in the pic of the 50 tray for scale. The Hugo blocks (bottom rockwool blocks) are 6" x 6". The Hugo block + the 4" block on top total 10" in height. The potted plants are in 2 gallon pots...10" tall also. The framing on the tray is made of 2 x 4's. Next round of pics I'll try and put something down for clear scale.

Managing the plants...even with hand watering each one everyday...is not that big a deal. It's all in the irrigation and drainage settup and equipment. I can mix nutrient solution and water every plant in well under an hour. Each plant is watered for 15-20 seconds. That's 15 minutes for 50 plants. The big mothers are watered for 60 seconds. We have a 1" suction hose hooked to a diaphram pump for the waste water. The pump is actually a bilge pump designed for work boats and will pass anything that will fit in the hose. The waste water pump discharge is plumber directly into the sewer. It will suck a 5 gallon bucket dry in about 20 seconds. Keep your fingers clear!
We work around 2-3 hours everyday: An hour for watering, and another 1-2 hours either spraying, taking clones, transplanting, pruning, cleaning, etc...Trimming at harvest is the real work. We have a trim crew of 6 people. During harvest we will work 6 people 8-10 hrs/day for 2 days. I will then dry and cure the buds. It's the one thing I insist on doing personally. Helper D does everything in the grow EXCEPT drying and curing. Anyways, there's a day in the growroom.


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## collective gardener (Jul 27, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> dam CG going back to what you know has paid off in a big way!!


 
Hellraizer! Long time, brother! How goes the battle?


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## hellraizer30 (Jul 27, 2011)

its going good! on my first run with growdan/rockwool and I got to say im impressed with it over hydrotron, its alot less labor intensive.
glad to see you got the mites out of your rooms. so from what I can see is your using green house roofing to chanel the water to a water
ducting? you on a recycling system? 
ive posted up some pics in the hydro section under ebb&grow thread if you want to check it out.


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## dapio (Jul 28, 2011)

Why is it that some people hang air conditioners in windows and what is the difference in "tons" of the AC unit is it just standard that a certain amount of weight in the air conditioner keeps a building cool do you guys have to install separate breakers for each unit installed? I always think about all the other things involved in getting the process together it seems like a big headache compared to salvaging whatever I can out of my little closet grow.

It seems you guys have your setup dialed in though mad props on this grow its one of the most well designed on this site.


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## collective gardener (Jul 28, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> its going good! on my first run with growdan/rockwool and I got to say im impressed with it over hydrotron, its alot less labor intensive.
> glad to see you got the mites out of your rooms. so from what I can see is your using green house roofing to chanel the water to a water
> ducting? you on a recycling system?
> ive posted up some pics in the hydro section under ebb&grow thread if you want to check it out.


HR,
We are top feeding the rockwool in a drain to waste system. I'm falling back in love with rockwool. Are you using slabs, blocks, loose, or what? Do me a favor and post a link to your pics here. Thanks.


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## collective gardener (Jul 28, 2011)

dapio said:


> Why is it that some people hang air conditioners in windows and what is the difference in "tons" of the AC unit is it just standard that a certain amount of weight in the air conditioner keeps a building cool do you guys have to install separate breakers for each unit installed? I always think about all the other things involved in getting the process together it seems like a big headache compared to salvaging whatever I can out of my little closet grow.
> 
> It seems you guys have your setup dialed in though mad props on this grow its one of the most well designed on this site.


A ton of AC is equal to 12,000 btu's of cooling capacity. Most small window units are 8,000-12,000 btu's, or 3/4 ton to a ton. A 1000 watt grow light requires 3,000 btu's of cooling capacity to offset the heat produced. An air cooled ducted light needs only about 1000 btu's to 1500 btu's depending on how much air you're moving through the light fixture. Yes, every air conditioner and every light has its own dedicated circuit breaker. We over design the electrical and always allow for expansion. It's great to have a dozen spare outlets on 6 seperate 20 amp circuits for all the stuff you didn't plan on...like the 4 additional high volume fans we just installed to increase air movement and ward off PM. Extension cords and power strips are an accident waiting to happen. Remeber...a burnt grow room is a busted grow room. Even if they made grow ops 100% legal tomorrow, most would be shut down for building code violations. We should all be looking to the future and building our ops to code. The ops that can pass an inspection will be in the best position. Can you imagine what would happen to your crop if you had to shut down for a couple weeks to bring everything up to code?


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## pattykakes (Jul 28, 2011)

Collective... you seem to be very knowledgeable... whats your take on adding special lighting like UVB..?..


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## collective gardener (Jul 28, 2011)

pattykakes said:


> Collective... you seem to be very knowledgeable... whats your take on adding special lighting like UVB..?..


Is that to increase resin production? I've heard of adding some sort of UV for resin production, but have never tried it, or seen it done first hand, or seen the effects documented in a real side by side test. I really feel like most of the big discoveries with high value crop production have been made over 20 years ago. I can see checking out new tools for better quality/production once all the basics are perfect. I mean, once you've cranked out several harvests with CO2 and you feel like you've truly maxed out your yield and quality for the op. That, my friends, is easier said than done. I've been at this for a long time and have only reached full op potential a few times. As with all grow technology, we have to watch out for the hundreds of shills out there claiming they used this and that and how great it was. The LED sales fucks are among the worst...and the dumbest. Those cock slobbers use the same cut and paste sales pitch on everyone's threads: "My friend used the Ass Blaster 5000 Super LED Power Punch Light and harvested 8 pounds of Krypto Skull Fuck from a single 200 watt light". Fucking tards.

Anyways, I have not used UVB...nor would I consider ANY technology I'm not familiar with until this op is consistantly producing what I know it can with zero problems and very little time invested. Does that make sense?


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## rosecitypapa (Jul 28, 2011)

pattykakes said:


> Collective... you seem to be very knowledgeable... whats your take on adding special lighting like UVB..?..


Hey CG, glad to see you around and producing again. You've been an inspiration for me to grow big and now it's a bit ironic for me to see you go smaller. It must have been a tough decision to scrap your crop and start fresh but now that you are on the other side of it, it must feel really good. When you were fighting the mites and spraying; what did you use to apply the solution? Was it one of those atomizers or a hand pump sprayer?

As for the UVB, I've been doing it for a couple of grows now. It definitely has an effect on the plant tissues and not so much the amount of resin production but as I understand it more on the conversion of cannabinoids into THC. I've done grows with MH through bloom and HPS (with same strain) and found the potency increased enough to research UVB. Now it's dedicated reptile lights for me when growing indoors with HPS. It's the best of both worlds (aside from natural sunlight).


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## PakaloloHui (Jul 28, 2011)

Here is a great video about THC and UVB. also rosecitypapa, how do you incorporate your UVB's with your HPS. Can you scetch a diagram of layout or explain???


[video=youtube;lfiI78uN3Ks]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfiI78uN3Ks[/video]


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## C.Indica (Jul 28, 2011)

"My friend used the Ass Blaster 5000 Super LED Power Punch Light and harvested 8 pounds of Krypto Skull Fuck from a single 200 watt light".
Oh we love you CG, we really do.


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## Jozikins (Jul 28, 2011)

"Can you imagine what would happen to your crop if you had to shut down for a couple weeks to bring everything up to code?"

That quote made me shudder. It's not easy being crammed in a little residential home to grow, bringing myself up to code is one hell of a task. But you better believe it's up top on my things to do list, besides kill pm, kill pm, and kill pm. I see mildew all over my deck outside, and I'm about to tear that bitch down and rebuild. I don't know if it can spread to my plants, I don't know if it is the same fungus, but I sure don't want to be living around it.


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## Luger187 (Jul 28, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> "Can you imagine what would happen to your crop if you had to shut down for a couple weeks to bring everything up to code?"
> 
> That quote made me shudder. It's not easy being crammed in a little residential home to grow, bringing myself up to code is one hell of a task. But you better believe it's up top on my things to do list, besides kill pm, kill pm, and kill pm. I see mildew all over my deck outside, and I'm about to tear that bitch down and rebuild. I don't know if it can spread to my plants, I don't know if it is the same fungus, but I sure don't want to be living around it.


rent a pressure washer and take it off. id think that would kill it. or it might just spread to wherever the water goes haha


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## dapio (Jul 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> A ton of AC is equal to 12,000 btu's of cooling capacity. Most small window units are 8,000-12,000 btu's, or 3/4 ton to a ton. A 1000 watt grow light requires 3,000 btu's of cooling capacity to offset the heat produced. An air cooled ducted light needs only about 1000 btu's to 1500 btu's depending on how much air you're moving through the light fixture. Yes, every air conditioner and every light has its own dedicated circuit breaker. We over design the electrical and always allow for expansion. It's great to have a dozen spare outlets on 6 seperate 20 amp circuits for all the stuff you didn't plan on...like the 4 additional high volume fans we just installed to increase air movement and ward off PM. Extension cords and power strips are an accident waiting to happen. Remeber...a burnt grow room is a busted grow room. Even if they made grow ops 100% legal tomorrow, most would be shut down for building code violations. We should all be looking to the future and building our ops to code. The ops that can pass an inspection will be in the best position. Can you imagine what would happen to your crop if you had to shut down for a couple weeks to bring everything up to code?


Well thats logical one thing I have always failed to understand especially when I think in terms of a large grow operation is how air cooled hoods actually work to their full potential. I would think that you have one fan that is taking air in from a separate environment so say one wall of a building in a house is sucking air in from the outside going through the hood cooling the bulb and at the end of the stretch there is another fan that is helping to push the air out of that environment into another in this case the other wall in the building to the outside.

Is there some type of a standard on how many lights you could hang in a line, and based on how the ducting is run through the operation do you lose more air movement? Also do air conditioners "cool air" run through the lights as well or is it just run through vents and used to cool the temperate of the air around everything inside? Everytime I go to my gym I notice how the air conditioner inside was set up its basically on a controller and it looks like there is two of them attached to the wall every time the temperature hits over 74 the unit turns on and the building begins to cool and I imagine how a plant would feel if exposed to the same environment hehe... a little silly but I use my imagination.

When you refer to building codes you are talking about fire prevention or is there more to this I was taking classes for firefighting a couple years ago and switched to criminal justice so I do know a bit about the building codes.


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## hellraizer30 (Jul 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> HR,
> We are top feeding the rockwool in a drain to waste system. I'm falling back in love with rockwool. Are you using slabs, blocks, loose, or what? Do me a favor and post a link to your pics here. Thanks.


shit I dont know how to post a link to it lol! anybody know how or can post the link to the ebb&grow thread in the hydro section would be great.


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## collective gardener (Jul 28, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> "Can you imagine what would happen to your crop if you had to shut down for a couple weeks to bring everything up to code?"
> 
> That quote made me shudder. It's not easy being crammed in a little residential home to grow, bringing myself up to code is one hell of a task. But you better believe it's up top on my things to do list, besides kill pm, kill pm, and kill pm. I see mildew all over my deck outside, and I'm about to tear that bitch down and rebuild. I don't know if it can spread to my plants, I don't know if it is the same fungus, but I sure don't want to be living around it.


Jozikins, get some Spectracide. The stuff is magic for PM and very easy on the plants. Spray that shit all over the deck, your grow room, your plants up to week 4 of bloom, and anywhere else you think it may do some good.


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## collective gardener (Jul 28, 2011)

dapio said:


> Well thats logical one thing I have always failed to understand especially when I think in terms of a large grow operation is how air cooled hoods actually work to their full potential. I would think that you have one fan that is taking air in from a separate environment so say one wall of a building in a house is sucking air in from the outside going through the hood cooling the bulb and at the end of the stretch there is another fan that is helping to push the air out of that environment into another in this case the other wall in the building to the outside.
> 
> Is there some type of a standard on how many lights you could hang in a line, and based on how the ducting is run through the operation do you lose more air movement? Also do air conditioners "cool air" run through the lights as well or is it just run through vents and used to cool the temperate of the air around everything inside? Everytime I go to my gym I notice how the air conditioner inside was set up its basically on a controller and it looks like there is two of them attached to the wall every time the temperature hits over 74 the unit turns on and the building begins to cool and I imagine how a plant would feel if exposed to the same environment hehe... a little silly but I use my imagination.
> 
> When you refer to building codes you are talking about fire prevention or is there more to this I was taking classes for firefighting a couple years ago and switched to criminal justice so I do know a bit about the building codes.


I like to use at least 150 CFM per 1000 watt light. Also, I never run more than 3 lights in series. Otherwise the air keeps getting heated by each succesive light and the last light in line gets pretty hot.

I'm talking about local building codes...making sure that the grow is constructed just as if you pulled a permit and had the whole thing inspected. This applies mostly to the electrical: wire sizing, load calcs, etc...


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## hellraizer30 (Jul 28, 2011)

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/269859-all-cap-ebb-grow-users-184.html

page 184 CG hope this link works


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## collective gardener (Jul 28, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> Hey CG, glad to see you around and producing again. You've been an inspiration for me to grow big and now it's a bit ironic for me to see you go smaller. It must have been a tough decision to scrap your crop and start fresh but now that you are on the other side of it, it must feel really good. When you were fighting the mites and spraying; what did you use to apply the solution? Was it one of those atomizers or a hand pump sprayer?
> 
> As for the UVB, I've been doing it for a couple of grows now. It definitely has an effect on the plant tissues and not so much the amount of resin production but as I understand it more on the conversion of cannabinoids into THC. I've done grows with MH through bloom and HPS (with same strain) and found the potency increased enough to research UVB. Now it's dedicated reptile lights for me when growing indoors with HPS. It's the best of both worlds (aside from natural sunlight).


Rose City,

I use a high quality sprayer and soak the living fuck out of the bottoms and tops of the leaves, the whole plant, the area around the plant, and basically the whole grow. We sprayed once per week while we were fighting massive mites. Now, we're down to once every 10 days.
We did go smaller...smaller plants...2 less lights in bloom...yet almost tripled our yield! Grow smart, not hard. We started the op using brute force...lots of light, big ass plants, and just kept piling plants into the bloom room. This was ok to get some $$$ going. But, now we want to maximize our space. We are thinking about expanding, but are waiting until the current op is operating as efficiently as possible. 

How many lights are you running now? Got some pics?

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/407048-20-000-watt-medical-grow.html


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## Jozikins (Jul 29, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Jozikins, get some Spectracide. The stuff is magic for PM and very easy on the plants. Spray that shit all over the deck, your grow room, your plants up to week 4 of bloom, and anywhere else you think it may do some good.


Awesome dude, thanks for the tip. It would definitely be worth my money to try instead of just spending hundreds on a new deck.


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## hellraizer30 (Jul 30, 2011)

here you go CG i started a journal

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/451539-hellraizers-10x10-x2-tents-running.html


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## Jozikins (Jul 31, 2011)

What variety of Spectraside? I'm having a hard time finding something for both bugs and disease that is safe for vegetable crops.

Still loving those rain gutter tables. Me and a few people had a good laugh about it over a drink, and we all are thinking of doing that next time. Did it save you any money? Or is it because it makes things easier. I like saving both money and/or convenience. Don't we all?


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## dapio (Jul 31, 2011)

So CG if I were to cut ventilation holes in a wall what tools are generally involved in the process is it simply like installing a ducting hole for a dryer? Also what are the best ways to hang multiple lights in a row is it best to just get creative or are there things that are commonly used by growers with large scale operations? I dont quite understand how to perfectly cut a hole for a inline fan does the exhaust fan sit right at the edge of the wall or is it hung inside and ducting is simply drawn to the hole?


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## TheLastWood (Jul 31, 2011)

All you need to cut the whole is a dry wall saw. Its just a little straight saw with a wooden or rubber handle. I cut my hole 5 1/2 - 5 3/4 inches for 6 inch ducting. And with the hole slughtly smaller than the ducting you can simply screw the ducting thru the drywall and you don't need a flange.

You probably want to exhaust into your attic or into the cieling rather than into a wall.

And inline fans pull air better than they push so you want your fan as close to the end of the run as possible.


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## dapio (Jul 31, 2011)

Thanks the last wood I appreciate it. Do you measure your circle with a compass (I think that's the thing I used to draw my circle with in math) before going into it? and also I would think wall to wall would be the most efficient as far as air movement but yes a lot more noticeable I was thinking those dryer flaps would be kind of low key most likely not haha... what do you hang your lights with do you use a stud finder?


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## collective gardener (Jul 31, 2011)

dapio said:


> So CG if I were to cut ventilation holes in a wall what tools are generally involved in the process is it simply like installing a ducting hole for a dryer? Also what are the best ways to hang multiple lights in a row is it best to just get creative or are there things that are commonly used by growers with large scale operations? I dont quite understand how to perfectly cut a hole for a inline fan does the exhaust fan sit right at the edge of the wall or is it hung inside and ducting is simply drawn to the hole?


If you look carefully at the pictures of our op (go back towards the beginning of the thread), you'll see how the ducting is connecting the fan to the wall/ceiling penetration. We use flanges at all penetrations. Like Wood said, a drywall saw works good for cutting a hole in drywall. Make sure to cut between the studs. If you need to cut through something other than drywall, use a jigsaw. 

Fastening multiple lights to ceiling is best done by first screwing a 2x4 to the ceiling joists through the drywall. Then just use eye screws into the 2x4 to attach your light hangers. We sheeted this whole grow with plywood so that we wouldn't need to look for studs, and could attach anything, anywhere on the walls or ceiling. I highly advise builders of new grows to do just this. It allows all equipment to be ung high on walls up out of the way, and opens up more space for more plants.


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## TheLastWood (Aug 1, 2011)

also into a cieling is better than the wall like I said. Most walls are only 3.5 to 5.5 inches thick so your going to get a lot of air resistance if your pushing 450 cfm straight into a wall. 

If you exhaust into the cieling you won't have that problem. Plus the insulation and whatever else is in ur walls, its going to be a lot of resistance.


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## rosecitypapa (Aug 1, 2011)

PakaloloHui said:


> Here is a great video about THC and UVB. also rosecitypapa, how do you incorporate your UVB's with your HPS. Can you scetch a diagram of layout or explain???
> 
> 
> [video=youtube;lfiI78uN3Ks]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfiI78uN3Ks[/video]


Great vid PakaloloHui!! That's the best I've seen on the subject so far.

In addition to searching the topic on other boards, I learned much about reptile lights and UVB from these links:
Chemical Ecology of Cannabis
Reptile lights and UVB
Radiance patterns of reptile lights

I have a 4'w x 6'd x 7'h space running a 600w vertical with a hydro flooded tube. I use one Reptisun CFL in a 12" metal reflector and a diy reflector for a Reptisun 18" uvb phosphor tube. The diy reflector was fashioned by splicing drip flashing, L bracket from scrap metal and a metal ceiling box. I matched the tube with spare ballasts and end clips from HD. ($20 total)This is hung vertically and basically creates a column (tear drop cross-section) within my vscrog.

The third link above is important in understanding the lighting distribution coming from these lamps with and without a reflector. It's a bit surprising that with uvb, polished metal actually amplifies the strength to detrimental levels at least for reptiles.






collective gardener said:


> Rose City,
> 
> I use a high quality sprayer and soak the living fuck out of the bottoms and tops of the leaves, the whole plant, the area around the plant, and basically the whole grow. We sprayed once per week while we were fighting massive mites. Now, we're down to once every 10 days.
> We did go smaller...smaller plants...2 less lights in bloom...yet almost tripled our yield! Grow smart, not hard. We started the op using brute force...lots of light, big ass plants, and just kept piling plants into the bloom room. This was ok to get some $$$ going. But, now we want to maximize our space. We are thinking about expanding, but are waiting until the current op is operating as efficiently as possible.
> ...


After looking at a bunch of sprayers, I'm thinking of going with this atomizer.
http://www.amazon.com/Hudson-99598-Electric-Atomizer-Sprayer/dp/B001FWX3LK 
It's a bit pricey but not compared with losing a crop. Have you seen one of these in action?

Right now I only have the one room above in bloom. This second room is offline until it gets cooler,



this is my ghetto greenhouse;




Basically my junk filled garage recycled for a higher purpose. The roof will get greenhouse film or polycarbonate when it gets colder at which point the addition of lights will make this a four-season green space. I'm liking the 'solar-assist'.  

It's a multi-strain grow with Jack Herer, Grape Ape, SSH, Love Potion and an Afghani Kush. They've been vegging for 8 months, topped once and LST'd. These are the happiest, healthiest and largest plants I've grown so far and frankly I'm a bit intimidated. I really don't know how to manage that canopy correctly for this situation. The rig is a diy undercurrent design with plant centers at 36".


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## collective gardener (Aug 2, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> Great vid PakaloloHui!! That's the best I've seen on the subject so far.
> 
> In addition to searching the topic on other boards, I learned much about reptile lights and UVB from these links:
> Chemical Ecology of Cannabis
> ...


That converted garage "solar assited" area looks fantastic, RoseCity. One thing I would do is to lightly thin out some of the larger fan leaves to allow some light penetration and air circulation deeper into the canopy. It will fill back in quite fast. Also, have you thinned out the bottoms and any areas that you feel are not going to produce grade A buds? In both indoor and outdoor crops I've had the best product by identifying the section of the plant that will produce the best product and remove all the rest. On these plants the outside 18" or so may be the real $$$ and the inside whispy stuff is just stealing energy from the outside primo stuff. It's also a great breeding ground for PM and pests. Other than that, the crop looks healthy as fuck. Is there going to be a method by which to kill all light 12 hrs a day any time of the year?


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## rosecitypapa (Aug 2, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> That converted garage "solar assited" area looks fantastic, RoseCity. One thing I would do is to lightly thin out some of the larger fan leaves to allow some light penetration and air circulation deeper into the canopy. It will fill back in quite fast. Also, have you thinned out the bottoms and any areas that you feel are not going to produce grade A buds? In both indoor and outdoor crops I've had the best product by identifying the section of the plant that will produce the best product and remove all the rest. On these plants the outside 18" or so may be the real $$$ and the inside whispy stuff is just stealing energy from the outside primo stuff. It's also a great breeding ground for PM and pests. Other than that, the crop looks healthy as fuck. Is there going to be a method by which to kill all light 12 hrs a day any time of the year?


Thanks for the tip CG. I get a bit emotional about pruning much but I do understand logically that it's better for plant health and yield all things considered. Should I worry at all about the canopy height? The fourth pic in my ghetto greenhouse is Love Potion and it's overgrowing everything else, would you top it back to keep it's height consistent with the others or just let it go?

Yeah, I'm pretty happy with the overall health. I'm using Dyna-Gro's Foliage Pro 9-3-6 product and it's NPK ratio is perfect. I've run the nutes as high as 2.0 EC (to test for overfert which didn't show) but now am running in between an EC of 1.0-1.2. It's just that and some Pro-tek (magnesium and silica) with a pinch of epsom salt to up my mag to get my calcium and mag ratio to 2:1. My pH drops daily though, I'm working on an diy arduino build with peristaltic pumps to help with that. It's either that, ion exchange resins or hp aero for me next - monitoring pH daily inhibits my traveling flexibility too much.


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## collective gardener (Aug 2, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> Thanks for the tip CG. I get a bit emotional about pruning much but I do understand logically that it's better for plant health and yield all things considered. Should I worry at all about the canopy height? The fourth pic in my ghetto greenhouse is Love Potion and it's overgrowing everything else, would you top it back to keep it's height consistent with the others or just let it go?
> 
> Yeah, I'm pretty happy with the overall health. I'm using Dyna-Gro's Foliage Pro 9-3-6 product and it's NPK ratio is perfect. I've run the nutes as high as 2.0 EC (to test for overfert which didn't show) but now am running in between an EC of 1.0-1.2. It's just that and some Pro-tek (magnesium and silica) with a pinch of epsom salt to up my mag to get my calcium and mag ratio to 2:1. My pH drops daily though, I'm working on an diy arduino build with peristaltic pumps to help with that. It's either that, ion exchange resins or hp aero for me next - monitoring pH daily inhibits my traveling flexibility too much.


Rosecity,

Personally, I would not top them this time of year. You're really close to bloom beginning. Topping this close to the stretch may kill your yield. 

I know pruning is a charged topic. If I was growing un-topped plants outdoors in the middle of a field I would not prune them at all. They will grow as nature taught them to and maximize their yield all by themselves. But, this is hardly the case with indoor plants, trained plants, closely spaced plants (your plants), or plants with limitted acces to the sun (also your plants). My theory on this is that the more we deviate from the plants natural state (outdoors in a field), the more we may have to alter the plants shape to maximize the yield.

Both myself and my "sister" grow op (40k watts) have done several side by side tests with pruned and un-pruned plants. Like most of us here, we are just trying to figure out the best way to maximize our yield of grade A product. Years ago (like 10+) we found that the strains we grow yielded more per sq ft if they were topped 1 time early on. We tried topping twice, but ended up with more smaller and less marketable buds. We aslo found that the best planting density for highest yield was 4 plants per sq ft. However, that's alot of plants with 200 sq ft of bloom space. So, as a comprimise, we grow 1 plant for every 1-2 sq ft. 

For many years I refused to do any pruning. I would let the leaves die and fall off rather than prune. Then, my friend did a test. One tray he left alone, and another he removed any fan leaves that were overlapping other leaves. His yield went up a little. Then, we both started running tests. After dozens of test runs, we came up with what we do now. No leaves are removed in veg. When we go into bloom, we remove just a few inner fan leaves...just the really big ones. We remove a few every week. After the stretch, we remove any lower growth...leaves and shoots...that are not going to produce good sized buds. This usually means the lower 6" is bare. We also then remove enogh inner fan leaves to allow the light to reach the lower most sections. We also remove enough outer fan leaves to eliminate serious shading of the plant next to it. The goal is to let light reach the entire plant, but not get to the tray. This increased our yield by at least 20% over plants left alone. An added benefit is not ending up with a bunch of tiny little buds. 

I just don't think that a plant's energy shoulf be wasted on growing small loose buds that are not appealing. We need to either let the light reach them, or remove them early on. I know many people don't agree with pruning. Also, many strains may not be suitable for this technique. Puse sativas are a good example. The branches are already spaced enough to let in the light. But, if you're getting alot of sub-standard buds, maybe try letting in some light and see what happens.

On a side note. In 1996 I read an article in High Times about a grower who planted 9 plants per sq ft! His yield was amazing. I had to try it. At this time there was no medical defense, so if you already had over 100 plants it really didn't make much difference if you had 300 or even 900...you were just as fucked. I placed 300 just rooted clones, all in 4" x 4" rockwool blocks, in a 4' x 8' tray lit by a pair of 1000 watt Son Agro HPS's. The plants were non-topped Northern Lights. The finished height was under a foot. Each plant yielded just over 1/4 ounce. That 4 x 8 tray yielded 5 fucking pounds! 2.5 ounces per sq ft. That was the best yield per sq ft or per light that I have ever had. Unfortunately, now that we're a legal collective with a plant count limit, this cannot be done again. But, If I were a closet grower, this is exactly what I would do.


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 2, 2011)

good read CG...


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## C.Indica (Aug 3, 2011)

I personally believe that most small grows shouldn't be pruned. But when dealing with large trees, it's almost necessary if applied correctly.
You guys should try removing those giant leaves as soon as they come from the plant, to save the plant from spending time growing it out.
I feel like it would direct more energy to desired branches/leaves without cutting back on too much solar panel surface area.

In the near future I want to take a classic 11"x21" seed starter tray, and do a SoG with about 9 plants per square foot.
I would do 18 plants per tray, and have the whole thing lit with a 150w CMH.
No veg time, all baby clones, goal is about 6" or less total height.
Each plant would have about 3"x3" space, with about 2" deep of root space.

They would only be alive for like 9-10 weeks total. And the goal is 2g-3.5g per plant.
That's about 36g-63g, perfect for a hobby grower/personal use smoker.
Sorry I just took a hit of some Lemon Skunk, and I'm rambling.


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## collective gardener (Aug 3, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> I personally believe that most small grows shouldn't be pruned. But when dealing with large trees, it's almost necessary if applied correctly.
> You guys should try removing those giant leaves as soon as they come from the plant, to save the plant from spending time growing it out.
> I feel like it would direct more energy to desired branches/leaves without cutting back on too much solar panel surface area.
> 
> ...


 
Your proposed micro-grow sounds fun. The challange with blooming just rooted cuts is blooming when roots have developed enough to actually grow a little without having established so much that they'll overtake the space. It's a fine line with a window of just a few days. You'll need some extra cuts so you can trash the fastest and slowest ones. Even canopy will be the trick here, especially with such a small light. This may be a good test for my 50 watt induction light. Hmmmmm.


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## C.Indica (Aug 3, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Your proposed micro-grow sounds fun. The challange with blooming just rooted cuts is blooming when roots have developed enough to actually grow a little without having established so much that they'll overtake the space. It's a fine line with a window of just a few days. You'll need some extra cuts so you can trash the fastest and slowest ones. Even canopy will be the trick here, especially with such a small light. This may be a good test for my 50 watt induction light. Hmmmmm.


I still have to get the setup though.. I don't want to ship lights and such to my house.
Hmm. I could also partition little cubes of dirt.
But I think timing it would be a lot more involved and easier in the long run. I'll learn as you said.

But I know you are aware of Vertical & Stadium grow methods.
It would be better to have the outer ring of clones be an inch or so taller. And have the innermost clones be shorter.
So maybe I could take the outer 12-14 a day or two before the other 4-6 clones.

The other problem is figuring out my medium.
I'm a soil grower with no intention of hydro, but I feel like filling a plastic tray with a bunch of dirt and no air flow is a disaster waiting to happen.
Thinking about doing like;
1/4 Perlite
1/4 Vermiculite
1/4 Peat Moss
1/4 Soil
If I can get all the ingredients.
Bad idea? What is a texture/recipe you'd recommend?


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## collective gardener (Aug 3, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> I still have to get the setup though.. I don't want to ship lights and such to my house.
> Hmm. I could also partition little cubes of dirt.
> But I think timing it would be a lot more involved and easier in the long run. I'll learn as you said.
> 
> ...


The micro grow really sounds like a fun gig. I think a typical seed starter tray will be too shallow for a soil grow. How bout 4" square pots? Having the plants in individual containers allows you to rotate the plants individually to maximize the light they recieve. Just the ability to rotate the outside plants 180 degrees will make it worth your while.

As far as plant height, even taking all of the clones at the same time will most likely produce plants that vary in height by at least the inch or so you're looking for. This should provide you with some taller plants for the outside and some shorter ones for the middle. Honestly, with the tiny sized plants we're talking about, it shouldn't make too much difference. 

I've used a very similar soil mix to the one you've proposed. As much as I hate to admit it, I grew organic for many years...back when I was a Granola Head. I still help out a friend with her greenhouse organic grow. We use Roots Organic potting soil and just add about 20% perlite to it. That stuff is amazing. One look at the ingedients convinced me that it was worth a try. My friend is an elderly woman who has a hard time mixing liquid nutes and making teas, so 90% of the feeding is done with just what's in the soil and top dressings. When I visit every couple weeks, I'll mix up some liquid organic nutes and give them a good feeding. ( rambling...sorry...took a big ass Lavander hit) My point is, you may want to give the Roots Organic a try. If you want to use the mix you proposed, I'd increase the perlite to 1/3 or so. Personally, I like to make soil light enough that it's impossible to overwater. It may require daily waterings, but a lighter mix watered daily will outperform a heavy mix watered every few days.

I'll be curious to see what you can do with this little grow. Be sure to start a thread and send us a link. I know that many of us get just as exited about 400 watt grows as 40,000 watt grows. Good Luck!!!


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## kevin murphy (Aug 4, 2011)

very nice thread lad sikk plants sikk pics... excellent..rep given


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## collective gardener (Aug 8, 2011)

Thanks, Mate. The next round of pics should show some real progress. The big blooming moms are 6.5 weeks into bloom. They're breaking branches from the new weight. e've been flushing for over a week, yet leaves are still very green. There are some mites on the big mother plants in bloom. Nothing compared to what we had a couple months back. We've been able to keep the bugs off of all other plants, though. I'll have pics in a day or so.


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## kevin murphy (Aug 8, 2011)

cant wait pal..


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## dapio (Aug 8, 2011)

Hey CG among the pictures you posted in the beginning of the thread I was observing your framing job it has inspired me to start building spaces of my own just not as big I noticed that in the middle of the structure there is some type of support beam just as one would do if they are building a roof except in this case you were building just a box structure. Is there are certain length of wood that requires support like that as in what would of happen if you had just took some huge piece of wood and extended them all the way across to the other beam or does wood just come standardized like that as it is I used to do construction with my friends dad when I was 16 and we built a couple garages and back houses I am regretting not paying more attention to detail instead of just trying to get my couple hundred dollars to smoke lol...

Did you do most of that job with a nail gun and what do you use to nail those beams to the middle support beam?


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## collective gardener (Aug 9, 2011)

dapio said:


> Hey CG among the pictures you posted in the beginning of the thread I was observing your framing job it has inspired me to start building spaces of my own just not as big I noticed that in the middle of the structure there is some type of support beam just as one would do if they are building a roof except in this case you were building just a box structure. Is there are certain length of wood that requires support like that as in what would of happen if you had just took some huge piece of wood and extended them all the way across to the other beam or does wood just come standardized like that as it is I used to do construction with my friends dad when I was 16 and we built a couple garages and back houses I am regretting not paying more attention to detail instead of just trying to get my couple hundred dollars to smoke lol...
> 
> Did you do most of that job with a nail gun and what do you use to nail those beams to the middle support beam?


I'm not sure what pic you're talking about. There are no beams in the build. The veg room is 12 x 24, and the joists are 2 x 8's and run the 12 foot length. The bloom room is 16 x 24 and the 2 x 8 joists run the 16 foot length. We just screwed a ledger to the face of the top plates and studs and used joist hangers to support the joists. The walls and roof are sheeted with OSB to facilitate fastening equipment to the walls without looking for studs. The entire build is screwed together to make teardown easier...even though it would still be a major bitch.

I should say that both myself and my helper have worked in construction for many many years. This makes building grows pretty easy. We already have all the tools needed to do most anything. Don't bite off more than you can chew. It will just end up looking like shit. Stick to what you can comfotably build, and get help for the rest.


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## puffntuff (Aug 9, 2011)

For sure cg!! Construction background means everything. I threw together a makeshift greenhouse in a couple hour for cheap that people wanted to buy from me hahaha.


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## Jozikins (Aug 9, 2011)

Agreed man, you have to be handy with tools! I don't have a construction back ground but my old grow partner does. And we may not live together but we still work as closely as a team as possible, he is always around helping me build stuff. I can do it on my own, but he makes it go faster and I learn a lot of tricks and ways to be more efficient every time. Plus, it's a chance to drink beer and get high, while playing with power tools. I don't get too many chances to live on the edge, lol!


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## collective gardener (Aug 9, 2011)

Since I can't use the basic uploader, here's the description of the pics from left to right:

1. Bubba 2 weeks into bloom. 2 gallon pot filled with rockwool croutons and top dressed with coco. This plant is an ideal size for us. It will yield around 2 ozs and takes up very little space. Many fan leaves and any small shoots have been removed.
2. Bubbas between 2 and 3 weeks into bloom. Plants in buckets would not fit on tray. When new trays are built, they'll go on them.
3. Mothers and rooted clones. Mothers are Pre-98 Bubbas, a new Bubba, and Tahoe OG x Chemdog.
4. 25 topped Pre-98 Bubbas going into bloom tomorrow.
5. 6.5 week Bubba. An old mother being retired.
6. Same as #5
7. Same as #2
8. Same as #5
9. 3 week Bubba. This one ended up WAY bushier because we put it into the 2 gallon pot very early in veg. While it will yield more than most of the other plants, it takes up more room. We are testing to see which ends up yielding more per square foot. My money is on more thinner plants. We'll see.
10. Same as #9.
11. Blooming old Bubba mothers. We staked up the sagging buds after taking pic. Each of these plants will yield well over an Lb. Each is under its own 1000 watt HPS. These will be the last of the large plants. All future plants will be smaller. More patients in our collective is allowing us to legally grow more, but smaller plants. This is the style of growing I'm used to. We couldn't do it at first because we didn't have enough members. 
12. Tahoe OG x Chemdog new mother. This is one of three cuts given to me by another collective grow op. It's not a big yielder, but absolutely great quality. Every dispensary we gave samples to placed an immediate order. 
13. New Bubba mother. This is a cut given to me with the Tahoes. It's Pre-98 Bubba (the only Bubbas we really like), crossed with an unknown OG, and back crossed several times with the Bubba. It grows just like the pure pre-98, but has the OG flavor everyone loves. 
14 & 15. Same blooming old Bubba mothers as above pics.

We'll be sending the new strains to Steep Hill Lab for THC testing. I have a feeling the Tahoe X Chemdog is going to be off the charts. It better be, considering the small yield. We're just running some small test batches of the new strains. 90% of the grow will remain our old Pre-98 Bubba. Once we're convinced the others are worth growing in bulk, we'll ease them in a little at a time. We may also expand our flowering area. Our veg room could support 3-4 of our bloom rooms.


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 9, 2011)

looking great CG looks like you will have alot of meds to go around!


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## lostNug (Aug 9, 2011)

Awsome grow man. Ur the only other person ive seen on here thats growin the pre 98 bubba. I just got a pre98 clone from my local club (i think i might turn her into a mother since i only got one and have heard very good reviews on the strain). How do u like it yourself? any tips of growing in?

Also have u heard of SFV OG (san fernando valley im guessing?). i also got a clone from the club of that and have never heard of it myself. One of the 3 new plants (used to be mothers) i just got from my buddy happened to be a sfv og also. what a coincidense haha

check out my grow in my sig


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## Jozikins (Aug 10, 2011)

lostNug said:


> Awsome grow man. Ur the only other person ive seen on here thats growin the pre 98 bubba. I just got a pre98 clone from my local club (i think i might turn her into a mother since i only got one and have heard very good reviews on the strain). How do u like it yourself? any tips of growing in?
> 
> Also have u heard of SFV OG (san fernando valley im guessing?). i also got a clone from the club of that and have never heard of it myself. One of the 3 new plants (used to be mothers) i just got from my buddy happened to be a sfv og also. what a coincidense haha
> 
> check out my grow in my sig


 I hate to steal a post from CG, but my main crop is the SFV OG. I have the f3 that is now clone only because of a breeding error back in '09 by Cali Connections. SFV is some serious FIRE, and I always have some collective or another calling me every week, sometimes 2 or 3 times a week, asking me for another hp. And I'm only flowering with 1800 watts, so it's quite the order! It is an amazing, healthy, happy, frosty, stinky, dense, strong, uniform plant, and I could never stop saying enough good stuff about it. You will be growing that forever, as long as it is in your control, you won't ever let that cut go, I can guarantee it. Highly highly highly recommend the SFV OG by Cali Conections.


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## C.Indica (Aug 10, 2011)

Mmmmm. I don't ever want to grow as many plants as you, but I take pointers everywhere.
I like your system.
But one thing that confuses me, your Mother+Clone setup, wouldn't that be way more light efficient if you'd rotate the reflectors 180* so that the bulb faces the white wall and reflects even more light back down to the plants?

I really wish the laws were different..
I would rather grow either 1 super super fat huge tree, or 50 super tiny little bonsai buds.
Not really much for the in between yet.

But because 50 3" tall plants is the same as 50 40" plants, I can't do that.


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## The*Mad*Hatter (Aug 10, 2011)

dude collective gardner.....i was reading threw your journal and first off...holey god man your set up rocks my face off.....2nd, i read the post with the guy has a medical disorder in jersey and cant get the med's he need and you offered your assistance to him, to do that from a web site like this man, your something of amazing!!! god bless you brother!!!


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## lostNug (Aug 10, 2011)

Jozikins: glad to hear that. Im suprised I've never seen it here at the local clubs because I supply them (and im not too far from san fernando valley itself) but im sure when I tell them that I got SFV they'll be stoked! So I will for sure be making one my 4 sfv's a motheer (probably the big stretched out one I got for free from my buddy). You got me all excited now man. I can't wait to harvest it now!


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## C.Indica (Aug 10, 2011)

Why would you keep the stretchy as a mother?
You should pick your absolute favorite and use that as a mother to keep her superior genetics.

Growth Patterns, Yield, Potency, Taste, Smell, Mold Resistance, Pest Resistance, Heat Resistance, Drought Resistance,
stuff like this should all be considered on your choice of a mother.


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## Jozikins (Aug 10, 2011)

lostNug said:


> Jozikins: glad to hear that. Im suprised I've never seen it here at the local clubs because I supply them (and im not too far from san fernando valley itself) but im sure when I tell them that I got SFV they'll be stoked! So I will for sure be making one my 4 sfv's a motheer (probably the big stretched out one I got for free from my buddy). You got me all excited now man. I can't wait to harvest it now!


 Both you and the clubs will love her. Please keep your best clone and the stretchy mom, I know that your best clone will probably beat that stretchy mom, but sometimes you can be surprised.


C.Indica said:


> Why would you keep the stretchy as a mother?
> You should pick your absolute favorite and use that as a mother to keep her superior genetics.
> 
> Growth Patterns, Yield, Potency, Taste, Smell, Mold Resistance, Pest Resistance, Heat Resistance, Drought Resistance,
> stuff like this should all be considered on your choice of a mother.


Just like this guy said dude, you want the biggest, baddest, strongest, the slight yield in your next crop you sacrifice now, will return to you hundredfold in future crops. Not to mention everyone will think you are the shit for having as good as SFV as "That Jozikins Guy," bahahaha, I kid, I kid... but I am half serious, bahahaha.


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## collective gardener (Aug 10, 2011)

lostNug said:


> Awsome grow man. Ur the only other person ive seen on here thats growin the pre 98 bubba. I just got a pre98 clone from my local club (i think i might turn her into a mother since i only got one and have heard very good reviews on the strain). How do u like it yourself? any tips of growing in?
> 
> Also have u heard of SFV OG (san fernando valley im guessing?). i also got a clone from the club of that and have never heard of it myself. One of the 3 new plants (used to be mothers) i just got from my buddy happened to be a sfv og also. what a coincidense haha
> 
> check out my grow in my sig


If you got a good pheno, you'll really enjoy the pre-98 bubba. Unfortunately, there's alot of cuts out there being passed off as that strain, but are clearly different. The actual pre-98 Bubba is quite rare. I'm very suprised that a grower with the real deal would even consider letting a live plant leave the grow to a collective. But, stranger things have happened. The reason we commit so much of our grow to this strain is because it yields more than the other high demand strains going around So Cal these days. The bottom line is that the yield is good, and the demand for it is very high. We've grown higher yielding strains (Blue Dream, Casey Jones, etc...). These are good strains, but in todays market "good" isn't enough. We've grown more powerful strains (Just about every OG). There's always high demand for the OG's, but the yield for most of them is quite a bit less than the Bubba. For us, the Bubba strikes the perfect balance between yield and quality. 

It's an easy plant to grow. We like to top just one time. Topping twice results in much smaller buds, and not topping reduces overall yield. We remove some fan leaves throughout the cycle. My previous posts detail what we remove and when. The idea is to allow good light penetration to the lower buds without letting any light get wasted hitting the tray. They recover very fast from pruning. One time I removed the top 2 feet from a 4 foot plant (75% of the total foilage) with hedge shears and it didn't skip a beat. Clones typically root within a week, but we leave them in the clone dome 12 days to allow all cuts to root thoroughly. This results in a nice even canopy. All plants are hand watered once per day in rockwool. TDS is 1000ppm in veg and 1300ppm in bloom. All feeding stops week 6 of bloom for a full 2 week flush with pure RO water before harvest. With 60 watts/sq ft of light, the buds will be very dense. I'm still suprised when I see the weight. Dense buds can have PM problems, so stay on top of PM control. Those rocks will also take while to thoroughly cure. Done improperly, the buds can end up crispy on the outside, and totally wet in the middle. 

I have grown the SFV OG for years. Being originally from the Valley, and active in commercial grow ops in the area, that strain seemed to be my destiny. Like Jozikins says, it's a winner. Without doubt, one of the hardiest OG's available. The plant cannot be killed. Even shitty growers can produce good amounts of killer dank from the SFV OG. I gave the last of my SFV mothers to a friend who grows organic outside and in a greenhouse year round. She's in the Long Beach area, and has bloomed those bad boys outside in the dead of winter. The buds were a little fluffy from the cloudy days, but impressive. She has 4 plants right now planted in the ground. They went in April 1st as 6" rooted cuttings. They're now 8' tall and about 8' in diameter. I'd bet each one will yield 3+ pounds. Indoors, you can grow them however you want. When I was growing the SFV it was in an aeroponics settup. Just don't be afraid to feed em pretty heavy and provide lots of light. They're definately not your typical dainty little fragile OG. They can be pushed pretty hard and they will respond with good weight. Has this been your experience, Jozikins?


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## collective gardener (Aug 10, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> Mmmmm. I don't ever want to grow as many plants as you, but I take pointers everywhere.
> I like your system.
> But one thing that confuses me, your Mother+Clone setup, wouldn't that be way more light efficient if you'd rotate the reflectors 180* so that the bulb faces the white wall and reflects even more light back down to the plants?
> 
> ...


There's no law keeping you from growing "1 super fat huge tree". In fact, with a simple rec, you could grow 6 super huge fat trees. From a legal standpoint, huge plants, and fewer of them, is the safest way to go. What's the problem?


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## collective gardener (Aug 10, 2011)

The*Mad*Hatter said:


> dude collective gardner.....i was reading threw your journal and first off...holey god man your set up rocks my face off.....2nd, i read the post with the guy has a medical disorder in jersey and cant get the med's he need and you offered your assistance to him, to do that from a web site like this man, your something of amazing!!! god bless you brother!!!


Thank you, man. I do enjoy helping people when I can. Also, any commercial grower _not_ helping sick people when he can, is just asking for karma ass rape.


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## collective gardener (Aug 10, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> Why would you keep the stretchy as a mother?
> You should pick your absolute favorite and use that as a mother to keep her superior genetics.
> 
> Growth Patterns, Yield, Potency, Taste, Smell, Mold Resistance, Pest Resistance, Heat Resistance, Drought Resistance,
> stuff like this should all be considered on your choice of a mother.


LostNug,
Keep the stretchy mother. Keep them all. She very likely was stretchy due to poor light from the other grower...not poor genes. The only way to know for sure is to take some test cuts and run them through yourself. Truly special genetics are too hard to find to not be sure before you toss a plant. Every great strain I've grown the last 10 years has come from a cut given to me by a friend or purchased from a private party for several thousand bucks. These days, I wouldn't even waste my time with seeds. Cuts purchased from clubs are even worse. No grower in his right mind is going to sell cuts of premium genetics for 5 to 10 bucks each. Now, when you hear through the "grower grapevine" of some primo cuts for sale for a few grand...those cuts may be worth a look. Back to your case, never discount luck. Like Jozikins said, you may be suprised...that stretchy mom might be the best strain your op has ever seen.


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## collective gardener (Aug 11, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> Mmmmm. I don't ever want to grow as many plants as you, but I take pointers everywhere.
> I like your system.
> But one thing that confuses me, your Mother+Clone setup, wouldn't that be way more light efficient if you'd rotate the reflectors 180* so that the bulb faces the white wall and reflects even more light back down to the plants?
> 
> ...


Thanks for bringing up the Adjustawing lights. We originally had white reflector boards hanging from the ceiling at a 45 degree angle, reflecting the end bulb light back down onto the plants. They became a pain in the ass, so we removed them. That's a good idea of yours to turn around the lights. If we keep the adjustawings (thinking of replacing them with Blockbusters), we will do just that. Nice eye for detail.


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## TheLastWood (Aug 11, 2011)

Yeah gardener the tahoes I'm growin are from seed so there actually tahoe cut x sfv ogk

And the jedi kush is deathstar(ecsd x sensi star) x sfv ogk

So far there goin greatin veg. Gonna flip em this weekend. also have some la con x og kush in flower that are lookin/smellin great.

Great pics gardener. Always amazing.

Edit: just ordered some Big Sur Holy Weed Seeds, thot u might appreciate that gardener. Can you sat old school?


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## Homebud (Aug 11, 2011)

Damn is a word! lol


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## C.Indica (Aug 11, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> There's no law keeping you from growing "1 super fat huge tree". In fact, with a simple rec, you could grow 6 super huge fat trees. From a legal standpoint, huge plants, and fewer of them, is the safest way to go. What's the problem?


Sorry that came out confusing, I do grow super fat trees, but I am not medical.
There is no problem, I just wish I could grow 18 bonsai buds in 2'sq

And yeah no problem, a lot of growers don't account for the fact that the bulb inside the reflector is going to point more light forwards than behind it.


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## lostNug (Aug 12, 2011)

Collective gardener and jozikins: thanks a lot for all the great info. I will definetly keep this strain growing. Yeah i know there is a good chance that the club clones could be not the real deal, but im hopin they are because out of all my ladies the sfv is lookin the best (bushiest and thickest stems). Its only 8in tall and the stems almost as thick as the 4 foot sfv mother. Got a pic of the crazy lookin stems in my thread if u guys wanna see.


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## C.Indica (Aug 12, 2011)

Wow for a minute there I completely forgot that stretchy plants can be growers error, what a brainfart.
I assumed it just grew like that at the same given light intensity as the others.

Glad to hear you're keeping it, whenever I go to put a plant down, I feel horrible. And it's even harder when it's the last you have of it.


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## collective gardener (Aug 13, 2011)

Well, 3 of us spent about 5 hours trimming the Big Bubba Mommas today. Got through around 2 lbs from 2 of em. Tomorrow we trim the other 2 and build another 8 x 8 tray for 25 new plants ready to bloom. They got a little big in veg. Probably hit them with some Bushmaster to keep stretch under control. These 25 will probably fill the 8 x 8 tray when they're done. I prefer plants small enough to get 50 on a tray. Our yield will suffer a bit with larger plants. We're still getting our timing dialed in on when to take clones to have them the perfect size when the previous crop comes out. We just hate cutting too late and having empty trays in bloom. Oh well...can't complain. It feels good to have buds in the drying shack.


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 13, 2011)

hey cg you like the bushmaster that much? ive never tried it but if it helps with stretch I would give it a go for shure


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## C.Indica (Aug 13, 2011)

I heard extra nitrogen/growth food during the initial stretch helps keep them tight also.
I tried it this go, but my girl is past 9 weeks and all of her leaves are still healthy dark green.
Next time I probably won't, and the stretch was still probably around 2x.


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## collective gardener (Aug 14, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> hey cg you like the bushmaster that much? ive never tried it but if it helps with stretch I would give it a go for shure


 
HellRaizer,

I do like it. We only use it as a tool when needed. I've used it 2 ways. First, if vegetating plants need to be slowed down a couple weeks before blooming, we have dosed them2 weeks before blooming. Basically, they stop vertical growth for about 10 days. The plants will still get bushy, but with little vertical growth. If we don't catch the plants early enough, we will dose them after 1 week in bloom. Since this is when the stretch starts, vertical growth will be slowed during the stretch. The results are a shorter, bushier plant. I prefer to have my timing right, and not use it at all. But, shit does happen, and it's a good tool.

Bushmaster is a POWERFUL growth inhibitor. It will kill your crop if used too heavy, or additional stress is placed on the plant after dosing. We use 1/3 mm/gallon of water. Yes, one third. It's plenty. We also dim and raise the lights after dosing for 3 days. One day prior to dosing, we flush. Plants are fed plain water the day after dosing...then only 500ppm for the next 2 days. The idea is you don't want to be blasting light and jamming nutes down a growth inhibited plant.

I suggest trying it on 1 or 2 plants before commiting to a crop. I have friends that use it on every crop. They claim it enables them to get more plants in the same area, thus increasing yield. I have no doubt this is true. Honestly, the stuff scares the shit out of me. I use it only when I have to. I consider myself a conservative grower, prefering consitant healthy harvests over maximized yields.


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## kevin murphy (Aug 14, 2011)

all ive got to say is simple...excellent work mate..now thats a grow room..


collective gardener said:


> View attachment 1728363View attachment 1728362View attachment 1728361View attachment 1728360View attachment 1728359View attachment 1728358View attachment 1728357View attachment 1728356View attachment 1728355View attachment 1728354View attachment 1728353View attachment 1728352View attachment 1728349View attachment 1728348View attachment 1728347
> 
> View attachment 1728346
> 
> ...


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## collective gardener (Aug 14, 2011)

kevin murphy said:


> all ive got to say is simple...excellent work mate..now thats a grow room..


Thank you Kevin. That means alot, coming from a grower of your stature. Cheers.


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## kevin murphy (Aug 14, 2011)

im no great grower yet mate but im trying to get better all the time...i put a new seed purchase today take a look.
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/425185-doggies-nuts-armeggedon-top-my-821.html


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## davidgrimm (Aug 14, 2011)

subscribed

Hi there

Love your grows and info. (Read through all 1200 ish replies, took a few hours though but was well worth the time). Thank you for taking the time and sharing your experiences. 

I have read RIU for a couple of years now but rarely post because I don't consider myself an expert. I don't get Killer buds (although the collective in SF that I belong to ALWAYS takes my excess even when they are telling other members 'sorry but we are full up, try back in a couple of weeks' (anyone heard those words before ?? lol) nor do I get 2 lbs per light (consistently) or any such nonsense. My current bloom operation puts out three 4X4 trays with 1 1000 watter per tray twice a month (I grow Blackberry Kush) so I get around 1 1/2 --2 lbs per cycle. My wife and I run everything from the mother's to doing the trimming. [We keep it small for security reasons plus just trying to get by, not make a fortune. If you want to make a fortune, go plant hundreds of plants outdoor, get 1 lb average and sell them bunch to out of state guys for $2,500+/-.] We use ebb and flow and grow in coco (recently switched from Atami to CocoGro, a prewashed coir fiber that we are happy with. We do not buy clones anymore because of bad experiences with spider mites. [I felt your pain, almost had to nuke everything to the ground like you did in order to get the buggers extinct.] We are in northern California so PM is a given but not since I bought and use a sulfur evaporator. We grow in the garage (three car) as opposed to in an industrial park so we have to pay sky high electricity rates. Thought about moving to an industrial park (and getting the much lower commercial rates) but then keet reading articles like where the police in Santa Cruz (a notorious loose place to grow) bust this grow in an industrial park and release a statement saying the owners of the grow attempted to say it was for mm purposes only (and had their recommendations posted on site) but, according to the police, it "had" to be "for profit". Figured I would look more like the small time "mom and pop" operation we are if we were in our home. 

Just got through moving the operation (What a bitch to do!!!) and plant cycles still not all the way recovered yet. Loved your idea about screwing everything together to facilitate ease of moving. Lights are wired 220 thru a sentinal controller. Was running 50 plants per 4X4 tray. Now vegging longer (3 weeks) and putting 15-20 per tray. Use a cloning machine. Absouletely love it. I lose maybe 1 or 2 clones per cycle (currently 60). Thats great in my mind... maybe people can do better but I was never able to using rockwool. All the other standard stuff but don't have CO2 yet. Next on our lists of purchases. Will need to seal the room then and that requires a sealed AC so its gonna be expensive. I probably have maybe $15,000 invested in the grow so far bought a little at a time over 4 years so we are not in it cost wise anywhere near your figures. But then yours is done first rate and that is usually the best (and cheapest) way to go in the long run. I haven't posted a grow journal because I don't think I know enough to try to instruct anyone yet. Might at some later time... maybe after doing it for 10 years I'll feel like an expert.

The main thing that I have learned in 4 years of indoor growing is that, to paraphrase someone's legend under their signature, 'There are about a 100 different things/procedures that you have to do for 1 cycle of growing and about 100 different ways to do each one so there is like a bazillion (someone more math inclined than I please do the actual calculation) different ways to grow and no 2 grows are exactly alike'. I am still experimenting even after 4 years and its heartning to see that a much more experienced and talented grower like yourself still changes things up to see if he can get it any better. Much love and well wishes!

David Grimm
(nom de plume)


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## collective gardener (Aug 14, 2011)

davidgrimm said:


> subscribed
> 
> Hi there
> 
> ...


 
David, 
Start a thread, my man! Sounds like you and the wife have a tidy operation. My wife and I will be setting up an op like that after the warehouse runs its course. I can't see any reaso you guys would want to be in an industrial space. The power rates are not much cheaper, anyways. Nice to hear someone being realistic about their yields. Whenver I hear a gram/watt, I'm thinking the pot must be pretty second rate (for Cali, anyways). Most of the current "in demand" strains aren't big yielders. Maybe that's why they're in demand, eh?

I feel ya on the pitfalls of buying clones from dispensaries. Not only the mite problem, but the quality has gone to shit. Do any of these places actually TRY the pot these cuts produce? The last one we tried not only gave us mites, but was total shit. It was supposed to be NYC Diesel, but had no smell, no crystals, and no high. None. It was big...a big ol' piece of shit. I've said it a million times...no self respecting grower is going to sell his primo cuts for 5 - 10 bucks each.

Good doing all that work with just you and your wife. My wife and I spent all day trimming at the shop, while my helper was out playing with his girlfriend. Another benefit to growing at home is being able to work at home. The only reason I don't grow in a house is because I can't draw the amount of power I need from a residence. My buddy grows our Bubba strain in a sealed garage grow at his house. Using 4 - 1000 watt lights, he yields 6lbs every 60 days. At $3,000/Lb, that's a good living working from home. To me, that's the perfect long term settup. I'm digging what you guys are doing. I'm sure sealing up the grow and running about 1000ppm CO2 will bump your yield at least 20%. It will also speed up your veg period quite a bit. Here's alink to a great supplier of ductless mini split air conditioners: http://www.aafeders.com/products/ac/minisplits/#Frig1822 These are the ONLY way to go with a sealed room. 

Anyways, thanks for taking the time to read the whole thread. I get plenty of questions that were answerd in the previous page...or previous POST! Take a minute to start a thread. I'd love to see some pics and more info on your op. Be sure to give us the link here.


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## C.Indica (Aug 15, 2011)

Yo CG, ever thought about doing a frankenstein plant with grafting?
I know you have handfuls of strains to work with, bucketloads of time to do it, and the know-how + creativity to make a monster.

Imagine having one or two big mothers with all of your strains attached?


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## collective gardener (Aug 15, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> Yo CG, ever thought about doing a frankenstein plant with grafting?
> I know you have handfuls of strains to work with, bucketloads of time to do it, and the know-how + creativity to make a monster.
> 
> Imagine having one or two big mothers with all of your strains attached?


LOL...Bucketloads of time? Shit, man, I grow part time. I own a business that eats up 60+hrs a week. Crazy thought, but I don't see the upside. My days of "playing" in the garden are over.


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## rosecitypapa (Aug 15, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Rosecity,
> 
> Personally, I would not top them this time of year. You're really close to bloom beginning. Topping this close to the stretch may kill your yield.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip CG, I did the deed and am surprised have much better it 'feels'. First I went after the loose fluffy stuff that grows low and close to the center, and then the growing tips lowest and closest to the center. It opens the plant up quite a lot and gave plenty of time to inspect each plant. Unfortunately discovered I have spidermites but am taking all the measures to address the problem. With the open centers the spidermite issue feels way more manageable.


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## TheLastWood (Aug 16, 2011)

Gardener I'm really intereted in the rockwool and blocks you have under them.

I doubt ill switch from coco anytime soon but I mean, that just looks too damn easy. 

I've always got the impression rockwool is finicky and hard to grow in.


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## collective gardener (Aug 16, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Gardener I'm really intereted in the rockwool and blocks you have under them.
> 
> I doubt ill switch from coco anytime soon but I mean, that just looks too damn easy.
> 
> I've always got the impression rockwool is finicky and hard to grow in.


 
Growing with rockwool blocks has saved me dozens of hours in the grow and the results beat out coco. I have some plants potted in coco blooming right now. When I harvest them (1month) I'll show you a pic of a coco plant and a rockwool plant side by side. Rockwool has some finicky properties, but easy to deal with. The main thing is you must flush it heavily once per week. You must top feed. Ebb and flow just generates too much salt buildup. You must use 5.3 - 5.7 PH. You must soak it overnight before using. Plants must be thoroughly rooted in smaller block before going onto larger block. Thats it! If you do those things, rockwool will not bite. One of those 6 x 6 x 6 Hugo blocks holds just short of 1/2 gallon of water. I'm growing plants that I would use 5 gallons of coco with in a 4 x 4 block on top of a 6 x 6 x 6 Hugo block. Grodan also makes an 8 x 8 x 8 Big Mamma block that holds a gallon of water. The Big Mamma can be used for really big production plants or mothers. Once you start using this stuff, you'll never go back. It's just too easy.


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## C.Indica (Aug 16, 2011)

Aww that's so sad.. I wish you could still play in your garden. Why don't you take a day off on your birthday or something and run around your gardens doing silly things you wish you had time for. Like LST or pruning or tidying up. Whatever floats your boat. Maybe even grafting Hahaha. I always wondered why rockwool pissed me off. I barely did any of those things. I've since moved to peat pellets for cloning, which I like better anyways. But if I ever decide to go hydro, I might just do topfeed passive rockwool. I'm only scared of hydro because it's more time, more money, more electricity (hobby gardener), and way easier to get toxicity/deficiency. Soil is so passive and relaxing. + I'm more interested in going organic and maybe eventually veganic because I don't like accumulating bullshit chemicals from around the world. But I may do a tiny hydro project some day out of curiosity. Who knows maybe I'll like it best.

Thanks.


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## ZAQ (Aug 16, 2011)

Once you go hydro you will never go back and you can do a organic hydro


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## Wolverine97 (Aug 16, 2011)

ZAQ said:


> Once you go hydro you will never go back and you can do a organic hydro


Eh, not true organics.


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## collective gardener (Aug 17, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> Aww that's so sad.. I wish you could still play in your garden. Why don't you take a day off on your birthday or something and run around your gardens doing silly things you wish you had time for. Like LST or pruning or tidying up. Whatever floats your boat. Maybe even grafting Hahaha. I always wondered why rockwool pissed me off. I barely did any of those things. I've since moved to peat pellets for cloning, which I like better anyways. But if I ever decide to go hydro, I might just do topfeed passive rockwool. I'm only scared of hydro because it's more time, more money, more electricity (hobby gardener), and way easier to get toxicity/deficiency. Soil is so passive and relaxing. + I'm more interested in going organic and maybe eventually veganic because I don't like accumulating bullshit chemicals from around the world. But I may do a tiny hydro project some day out of curiosity. Who knows maybe I'll like it best.
> 
> Thanks.


I still do enjoy my time in the grow. I just need to make sure that my time spent is beneficial to the grow. Unfortunately, grafting projects aren't high priority. As far as hydro and nute probs, Sunshine #4 and GH nutes are the most realiable combo for avoiding any nute problems. I don't currently use either, but all my grows start with that combo. This way we know there will be zero nute issues while we dial in the atmosphere. I've grow live soil organic extensively and believe hydro, in particular soiless, is way easier to control.


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## collective gardener (Aug 17, 2011)

ZAQ said:


> Once you go hydro you will never go back and you can do a organic hydro


 
Another blanket statement. I have gone hydro and reverted to organic and back. There is no "best" way. I have a friend who grows SFV Kush in live soil organic greenhouse/outdoor grow. Her yields are insane. She uses very large containers for the plant size and mixes her oiwn soil. Most of her feedings are top dressings. She's an older woman so by top dressing she can just water most of the time and top dress when she feels up to it. Even with such a loose feeding schedule the plants are the picture of health. In the winter she lets the greenhouse get cold at night late in bloom. This turns some of her strains to most insane purple you've ever seen. Almost black. 

The point is, there's no room in growing for blanket statements. You should try live soil organic some time. I find the quality to be a little better with organics. A true grower has tried every growing tewchnique available. Only then can he make a decision on which is best for him.her.


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## collective gardener (Aug 17, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Eh, not true organics.


 
You're godamn right, Wolverine. Years ago, I adopted the term "Live Soil Organics". This better explains the growing style that most refer to as simply "organic".


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## Jovreef (Aug 17, 2011)

I got to page 97 before I commented so I don't know if you've figured out how to find critical patients yet, but have you thought about calling the Dr. you got the rec from or other Dr's that give out cards? Tell them your a collective and would like to be able to help anyone coming in with a terminal problem that cant afford it and let the Dr give them your info? 

I would think the Dr's who give out the rec's would be the best resource for finding those needing the help. 

BTW loved every bit of this thread and how you've kept it on track. Your purple ones make me super jealous! I'd give anything to find a purple sativa beauty like that, hell I'd even pose nude haha (I'm a model but don't do nudes, its not creepy, I'm not a man) Totally kidding! ... maybe. 

Anyway, thanks again for showing us this great grow.


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## TheLastWood (Aug 17, 2011)

Maybe ill try em out. Sounds exactly like how I grow now pretty much. Top feed (handwatered) coco. 

I use 1 gal pots till flower then switch to 2 gal. Coco doesn't need big pots rly.

I really really love my coco, but if results are as good or better and its as easy to feed and water then why not.
I never flush my coco, I water till I get about 20% runoff always. And I feed water feed water so I don't really have salt buildup problems. Could the same thing be done with rockwool?


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## collective gardener (Aug 17, 2011)

Jovreef said:


> I got to page 97 before I commented so I don't know if you've figured out how to find critical patients yet, but have you thought about calling the Dr. you got the rec from or other Dr's that give out cards? Tell them your a collective and would like to be able to help anyone coming in with a terminal problem that cant afford it and let the Dr give them your info?
> 
> I would think the Dr's who give out the rec's would be the best resource for finding those needing the help.
> 
> ...


Jovreef,
That's a really good idea on finding needy patients. I wonder if there would be a confidentiality issue? Maybe the doc could just give select patients my info. I'll call my doc and ask him.

It's kind of wierd that we've had a hard time _giving_ the shit away. I had a few people wanting me to give them the buds, so that they could get them to the needy folks. Shit. I was born at night...but not last night. I have been able to help some people out. As always, if anyone out there has new ideas on hoe I can safely distribute to people in REAL need, I'm all ears.

If you like the purple stuff, I'll post a pic of the darkest purple shit I ever grew. I'll post it now. Check a few posts down


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## collective gardener (Aug 17, 2011)

A buddy gave me this cutting. He had no clue what it was. He grows it hydro indoors and gets some purple. I grew this one at a friends house outside in the middle of winter. I vegged it in my grow op and then put it in my friends backyard. Basically, I wanted to see if the cold nights would bring out some more purple. It did. It's 100% live soil organic. I did this because my friend is a granola head and she insists that all plants she cares for be organic. Anyways, if anyone has grown a more purple plant, I want to see it.


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## Jovreef (Aug 17, 2011)

tease! Those pics are fantastic!


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## drgreentm (Aug 18, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> if anyone has grown a more purple plant, I want to see it.


 not here buddy, beautiful colors on that one, nice one.


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## Joedank (Aug 18, 2011)

sorry to hear about helper d,,... but fuck theives... fuck em rotten


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## collective gardener (Aug 19, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Maybe ill try em out. Sounds exactly like how I grow now pretty much. Top feed (handwatered) coco.
> 
> I use 1 gal pots till flower then switch to 2 gal. Coco doesn't need big pots rly.
> 
> ...


Your technique is very similar to ours. You could try rockwool and change nothing except the medium. Pick up a bag of rockwool croutons and try out a few plants. Just make sure the plants are well rooted in the 1 gallon before going into the 2, that the PH is between 5.5 and 6.2, and flush once per week. Rockwool needs flushing. You will find that you can grow a plant twice the size in rockwool as with coco in the same size container. A 6 x 6 x 6 rockwool block holds just under 1/2 gallon of water.


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## collective gardener (Aug 19, 2011)

Joedank said:


> sorry to hear about helper d,,... but fuck theives... fuck em rotten


Yeah...I have a tender spot when it comes to getting ripped. In 1994 I grew 25+ lbs of Northern Lights #5 in my backyard. I had it all pre sold for 4k each. My cousin ripped it all off as it hung drying in the garage. My fucking cousin. I stopped growing for a few years after that.

Helper D and I are still cool. I actually lied to him and said that I don't think he took it. I want to keep everyone mellow. He's gotten another job already...not growing. I just told him it's time for us to take a break, and that maybe he can come back next year (that won't happen). I'm not worried about him doing something stupid at all. I'll be giving him some product every month as a "bonus for all his help in the settup". That's the price we must pay when we fire someone. Gotta keep them happy.


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## Joedank (Aug 19, 2011)

cousin?? that is sad;( but i also felt the need the keep the wheels greased on a large op i did.... never again now i keep to my own with my lady. looks like your heading there to... i went from 300+llbs per year (in and out) with investors BIG headaches everyone knows best but does not want to show up so the "grower " gets the brunt of the load.... to 30-50lbs per year and no more headaches near the same money and NO trimmers to deal with!! caregiving is great but scale does matter


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 19, 2011)

Cg what did helper d do i must of miss it


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## TheLastWood (Aug 19, 2011)

Yeah me too n I can't find the post anywhere.

That's sad.

U need help cg ill grab my purple plushberry n drive out there my life sux lol.


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## collective gardener (Aug 19, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> Cg what did helper d do i must of miss it


He had his hands in the cookie jar. I found out some buds were missing. We agreed it was time for him to go somewhere else. I still give him some work with my other business to keep the air cool.


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## collective gardener (Aug 19, 2011)

Joedank said:


> cousin?? that is sad;( but i also felt the need the keep the wheels greased on a large op i did.... never again now i keep to my own with my lady. looks like your heading there to... i went from 300+llbs per year (in and out) with investors BIG headaches everyone knows best but does not want to show up so the "grower " gets the brunt of the load.... to 30-50lbs per year and no more headaches near the same money and NO trimmers to deal with!! caregiving is great but scale does matter


Yup, Joe. It's me and my wife for now. I still have 2 people who help with the trimming, but my wife and I were at the op till 11pm 2 days last week trimming. My expansion plans are on hold for now. We'll just get this op producing as much as possible. I'll probably move up my plans to seal the grow and add CO2 enrichment. Talked to my HVAC guy yesterday about a new ductless split A/C system.


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## rosecitypapa (Aug 19, 2011)

Hey CG, have you experimented or witnessed the results with any industrial trimmers or the bonsai hero? Manual trimming always produces the best final product but I was wondering if the bonsai hero had a place in a quality oriented grow op.


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## collective gardener (Aug 19, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> Hey CG, have you experimented or witnessed the results with any industrial trimmers or the bonsai hero? Manual trimming always produces the best final product but I was wondering if the bonsai hero had a place in a quality oriented grow op.


I've seen most of the trimmers in action. Not the bonsai hero. We hand trim and will continue to do so. The dispensaries we deal with compliment us on our trim all the time. Even the most expensive units don't give you what human hands can. What is the bonsai hero?


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## rosecitypapa (Aug 19, 2011)

I agree, the big units appear to really tumble the buds around. I was researching electric scissors and came across these two items:
First the Bonsai Hero in action.

and the other is a 
Black and Decker cordless electric scissors.

It's a bit bulkier than the BH but at only $20 if getting some custom blades fabricated one would still come out ahead. I'm contemplating creating an electric one similar to BH but with a smaller blade similar to the trusty fiskars - something that allows one to get in tight and snug for those flush cuts.


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 20, 2011)

Hey cg my pre harvest and harvest pics are up in my journal if you got time checkem out


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## davidgrimm (Aug 20, 2011)

If you are still looking for someone to donate medicine to I would like to suggest you review WAMM. It is out of the area that you wanted to stay in but it is made up of truly ill patients mainly terminal cases. It's located in Santa Cruz, has operated since 1996 and is run by an individual named Valerie Corral. If interested you can review its website at WAMM.org. As an aside, it was busted by the DEA about 10 years ago and the local supervisors (or city council, I don't remember which) had WAMM pass out its medicine on the court house steps while the politicians watched so the DEA wouldn't give them any hassles. I don't have any connection to the group but have watched it from afar and always thought it would be a great group to support, if I ever got the chance financially.


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## collective gardener (Aug 20, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> Hey cg my pre harvest and harvest pics are up in my journal if you got time checkem out


What do you mean, "if you have time". I _always_ got time for my brother's and sister's grows. Always. That's what this whole thing is about, man. It can get pretty lonely in a grow room. Without places and people like this to share the experiance, growing would still be a very VERY lonely endeaver. I'm going to your op right now.


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## collective gardener (Aug 20, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> Hey cg my pre harvest and harvest pics are up in my journal if you got time checkem out


Where did your journal go? Send link. I went to link at bottom of your post...no recent pics.


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## collective gardener (Aug 20, 2011)

davidgrimm said:


> If you are still looking for someone to donate medicine to I would like to suggest you review WAMM. It is out of the area that you wanted to stay in but it is made up of truly ill patients mainly terminal cases. It's located in Santa Cruz, has operated since 1996 and is run by an individual named Valerie Corral. If interested you can review its website at WAMM.org. As an aside, it was busted by the DEA about 10 years ago and the local supervisors (or city council, I don't remember which) had WAMM pass out its medicine on the court house steps while the politicians watched so the DEA wouldn't give them any hassles. I don't have any connection to the group but have watched it from afar and always thought it would be a great group to support, if I ever got the chance financially.


 
Yes Yes YES. This is perfect. Thank you soooooo much. I'm checking out the site now. My wife is leaving is an hour for the Bay area and I'm going to send her with a package in case I can talk with The WAMM folks and set up a delivery this weekend. She can drop it off on her way home Monday. Thank you for this.


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## collective gardener (Aug 20, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> I agree, the big units appear to really tumble the buds around. I was researching electric scissors and came across these two items:
> First the Bonsai Hero in action.
> 
> and the other is a
> ...


I checked out the HERO. It may have a place on the trim table. We like to remove the buds from the branch before trimming. That seems like it would be dangerous with the hero. You'd still need to do some hand trimming. We use the Hydrofarm curved spring loaded shears. They are GREAT.


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Where did your journal go? Send link. I went to link at bottom of your post...no recent pics.


There on page 45


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## collective gardener (Aug 20, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> There on page 45


Dude...what am I missing? I only see 17 pages on your thread. Just post me a link here. I want to see this shit.


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Dude...what am I missing? I only see 17 pages on your thread. Just post me a link here. I want to see this shit.


let me check il get to the bottom of this


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 20, 2011)

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/451539-hellraizers-10x10-x2-tents-running.html


here you go


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## TheLastWood (Aug 20, 2011)

Yeah I use the spring loaded fiskars with the short bladees. The spring is perfect I can feel if I'm cutting a bud and stop.

I wonder if industrial trimmers catch the keef they knock off. I know in amsterdam they vibrate the keif off then sell the buds at a lot of places. Subcool talks about it in his journal. 

Maybe that's why I've never bought buds as frosty as the ones I've ggrown.


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## collective gardener (Aug 20, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yeah I use the spring loaded fiskars with the short bladees. The spring is perfect I can feel if I'm cutting a bud and stop.
> 
> I wonder if industrial trimmers catch the keef they knock off. I know in amsterdam they vibrate the keif off then sell the buds at a lot of places. Subcool talks about it in his journal.
> 
> Maybe that's why I've never bought buds as frosty as the ones I've ggrown.


That fucking keifing deal is fucked. I knew a group of Canadians with a monster op who started pulling that shit. The good news is that here in Cali, you'll take a huge price cut for that. We try not to handle the buds any more than we have to. I used to rag on Helper D for rubbing the watering wand against the buds.

The reason we use the Hydrofarm shears is the curved blades. It makes it easy to shear the leaves right at the bud. We try and remove all visable leaf matter. Even if they're crystalized they gotta go. We make keif with the trim and small buds. I put all that shit in a food processor before we screen it. I'm going to Hempcon next weekend to pick up a keif tumbler. To me, keif from kill bud is the most powerful thing you can smoke. I love giving people eif hits and watching them fry.


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## collective gardener (Aug 20, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/451539-hellraizers-10x10-x2-tents-running.html
> 
> 
> here you go


I checked that shit out. Fantastic, man. That looks like the best timing on the flush I've ever seen. How long was the flush?


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## Wolverine97 (Aug 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> That fucking keifing deal is fucked. I knew a group of Canadians with a monster op who started pulling that shit. The good news is that here in Cali, you'll take a huge price cut for that. We try not to handle the buds any more than we have to. I used to rag on Helper D for rubbing the watering wand against the buds.
> 
> The reason we use the Hydrofarm shears is the curved blades. It makes it easy to shear the leaves right at the bud. We try and remove all visable leaf matter. Even if they're crystalized they gotta go. We make keif with the trim and small buds. I put all that shit in a food processor before we screen it. I'm going to Hempcon next weekend to pick up a keif tumbler. To me, keif from kill bud is the most powerful thing you can smoke. I love giving people eif hits and watching them fry.


Word. Just commented on this in M Rize's hash thread. Kief is the way to go imo, it's versatile, you can press it, rollitup, bowlitup, whatever... And when properly sieved, it's really the cleanest best tasting smoke one can have. I don't do water hash, I'm not huge on bho, but love me some kief.


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I checked that shit out. Fantastic, man. That looks like the best timing on the flush I've ever seen. How long was the flush?


hey CG flush was 2 weeks with 8 res dumps to ensure fresh water for the flush. started the flush at week 7 and finish at 9 the orange kush
loves the 9weeks starts geting purple and blue


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> That fucking keifing deal is fucked. I knew a group of Canadians with a monster op who started pulling that shit. The good news is that here in Cali, you'll take a huge price cut for that. We try not to handle the buds any more than we have to. I used to rag on Helper D for rubbing the watering wand against the buds.
> 
> The reason we use the Hydrofarm shears is the curved blades. It makes it easy to shear the leaves right at the bud. We try and remove all visable leaf matter. Even if they're crystalized they gotta go. We make keif with the trim and small buds. I put all that shit in a food processor before we screen it. I'm going to Hempcon next weekend to pick up a keif tumbler. To me, keif from kill bud is the most powerful thing you can smoke. I love giving people eif hits and watching them fry.


wow its that important to get every single leaf off? thats got to be a nightmare for trimming!


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## collective gardener (Aug 20, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> hey CG flush was 2 weeks with 8 res dumps to ensure fresh water for the flush. started the flush at week 7 and finish at 9 the orange kush
> loves the 9weeks starts geting purple and blue


That's the way to go, man. 8 res dumps. Nice. That shows a real commitment to the quality of your product. It's that kind of hard work that will keep you growing while the 90%ers fall by the wayside. We're in a real transition stage of this industry. Standards are going up coast to coast. I have a friend in Arizona that said _just last year_ they saw the last of the sexy mexi compacto. It seems that every week the standards go up. I'd rather see the standards go up than the prices go down. I am starting to get the feeling you'd feel the same. 

California is going to legalize recreational use next election. My attorney says that gives us 3-5 years to either get onboard, or get fucked. For me, this med op is just to legally hone my skills. Those of us that can totally dial in just 1 or 2 strains could ride this new wave for a while. There will be huge grow ops undercutting us small guys. But, they shouldn't scare us. There's no way to mass produce and keep up the quality. You think they're going to hand trim? HA! Hopefully it will mirror the California wine industry: A few big players, and a buttload of small guys producing a perfect product that's always in demand. I also see groups of growers like you and me pooling our resources to compete in a new market. Can you imagine what will happen when California can export to the entire country? Shit, we already do. Everything is in place. The genetics are here. The tallant is here. It's gonna be a big fucking cash pie, and all we want is a crumb.

Anyways, buddy. Keep up the great work. Where are you located, anyways?


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## kevin murphy (Aug 21, 2011)

hows things on this mega grow collective mate all blooming great i hope pal..


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## collective gardener (Aug 21, 2011)

kevin murphy said:


> hows things on this mega grow collective mate all blooming great i hope pal..


 
All good on the western front. Found out today that the 6" Hugo blocks are not quite big enough for our current plant size. I ordered a couple cases of 8" Big Mamma blocks. I got to the op late this morning. It had been about 28 hrs since the last watering. The blocks were very light. The plants were not wilted, but I'm sure they were close. To increase the water capacity of these plants I put 4 " of croutons in 2 gallon pots and placed the Hugo blocks in the pot on top of the croutons. That will get these 30 plants through this harvest. All future plants will be a 4" Delta block on top of an 8" Big Mama block. Believe it or not, the Big Mama block hold almost a full gallon of water. 

After that event I spent a few hours removing the fan leaves from my 4 week plants. I know this will rile a few people up LOL. The majority of my growing career I would never cut a leaf off. But, once I saw the results in a friends grow, I'll never go back. Now the plants are just 4-6 long branches with golf ball size buds totally exposed to the light. I end up getting nice marketable buds right down to the lowest ones. It improves air circulation and makes trimming far easier. The overall bud weight of a pruned and un-pruned plant are about the same. But the un-pruned plant ends up with about 25% un-marketable buds. I see this as 25% increase in yield. I kow many people swear by not pruning. And if it works for you...stick with it. But, for those of you that consistantly seek improvement, give it a try on a few plants. I promise you will be happy with the results.


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## kevin murphy (Aug 22, 2011)

nice post mate and yea i do that sumtimes with the leaves just not alot of em loll


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 22, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> All good on the western front. Found out today that the 6" Hugo blocks are not quite big enough for our current plant size. I ordered a couple cases of 8" Big Mamma blocks. I got to the op late this morning. It had been about 28 hrs since the last watering. The blocks were very light. The plants were not wilted, but I'm sure they were close. To increase the water capacity of these plants I put 4 " of croutons in 2 gallon pots and placed the Hugo blocks in the pot on top of the croutons. That will get these 30 plants through this harvest. All future plants will be a 4" Delta block on top of an 8" Big Mama block. Believe it or not, the Big Mama block hold almost a full gallon of water.
> 
> After that event I spent a few hours removing the fan leaves from my 4 week plants. I know this will rile a few people up LOL. The majority of my growing career I would never cut a leaf off. But, once I saw the results in a friends grow, I'll never go back. Now the plants are just 4-6 long branches with golf ball size buds totally exposed to the light. I end up getting nice marketable buds right down to the lowest ones. It improves air circulation and makes trimming far easier. The overall bud weight of a pruned and un-pruned plant are about the same. But the un-pruned plant ends up with about 25% un-marketable buds. I see this as 25% increase in yield. I kow many people swear by not pruning. And if it works for you...stick with it. But, for those of you that consistantly seek improvement, give it a try on a few plants. I promise you will be happy with the results.


Hey cg i do the same thing at week 4-5 i trim of all the fan leaves, my last on i didnt but i was just lazy. Ive 
Not openly said i di it due to the flaming, but its nice to see others that have found that it helps the quality
Better! Just makes sense the plant only uses the energy from them in vertical growth and once they crown off
Theres no need for them.


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## dapio (Aug 22, 2011)

So cg you are saying that all the threads I have read with people replying in disgust of a plant that was pruned to shit is now your key to success?


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## collective gardener (Aug 22, 2011)

dapio said:


> So cg you are saying that all the threads I have read with people replying in disgust of a plant that was pruned to shit is now your key to success?


 
I don't know about "key to success". It has increased my marketable yield by over 20%. I'm not saying pruning is right or wrong...it just works for me. It also works for the other high wattage commercial and med grows I'm involved in. I would encourage everyone here to try things on their own. Just because a group of people don't agree with a technique doesn't mean it won't work for you. We had a HUGE debate over Bushmaster a few months ago. I use it once in a while with good results. Others claim it's poison.

Pruning tests are so easy to run, it's silly not to at least try it. Nutrient tests are a pain cause you need to mix 2 batches, blah blah blah. But to just set asside a couple plants for pruning is too easy not to try.


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 22, 2011)

what we are saying is removing fan leave the big one that shade the buds from light at week 4-5 aids in a more useful product not
saying it adds wieght. there is no prunning to shit just a mild hair cut, as for it being the key to success, its more personal pref.


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## TheLastWood (Aug 22, 2011)

Yeah when ppl say "I remove every fan leaf but the ones at the growth tip" that's excessive to me.

Just do it gradually cuttin off a few big fan leaves every once in a while. If you don and you have a bush then the top layer of leaves can pretty much block all the light from the middle of the plant. Especially on tight node stacked indica bushes. 

I've also started pruning more because I've been double potting. I veg for half as long now am more efficient. 

Its valuable real estate under the hid


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## jyermum (Aug 22, 2011)

CG.. I picked up some bushmaster before they pulled it from the shelves and also grabbed a QT of gravity. You have any experience with the gravity? I haven't needed them yet but it's in the garage fridge for just in case.


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## C.Indica (Aug 22, 2011)

Blah blah prune vs no prune too many replies. Sorry everybody above.

Hey CG, try removing those leaves as soon as they're born, as apposed to developed fan leaves.
Predetermine which leaves will be removed, and take them out the moment they've opened up.
This should make the corresponding branch schwarzenager (Holy fuck, THC+Spelling+Wierd austrian body buildin' terminatin' governator doesn't work.)
sized.


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 22, 2011)

the plant needs those leaves for vertical growth, but when it crowns off in flower around week 4 to 5 there not needed, so taking them
off early would stunt growth.


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## collective gardener (Aug 23, 2011)

Wow...I've never seen so many pruners in one place. Should we have a secret handshake?

My method is more of gradual accelerating technique. My goal is simply to allow light down to my target growth are throughout the life of the plant. I may take 1 or 2 of the BIG upper fan leaves in veg...maybe. If there's one leaf thats shading 2 or 3 shoots, I figure those shoots are more important than one leaf. Once in bloom, before the stretch is complete I will just take 1 or 2 big uppers...just like in veg. After the stretch I take the plant off the tray to a table and remove all lower growth that's not going to be worth a shit. I may also remove some middle smaller shoots togive the primary branches ample room. This is the when I'm deciding which branches are going to be the winners, and which are just going into the trash. At this time I do a pretty good fan leaf removal. All the BIG leaves in the upper third of middle of the plant go. I leave the outside leaves as long as they're not hanging out so far as to shade the plant next door. Now, all through the bloom stage, as the plants become bushy, I keep thinning the upper 2/3's...just a few leaves at a time. About week 5 I go wholesale slaughter. Every fan leaf with an exposed stem goes. I'm left with just branches covered (hopefully) with golf ball sized buds and bud leaves. 

Essentially, through the bloom phase, I'm thinning the plant at the same speed it is getting bushy. It's just that I'm thinning the upper portion, while the plant gets bushy through its whole height. If I've done my job right, the entire plant is recieving light, but very little light is hitting the table. To me, this is the best way to take advantage of the _height_ of the plant. Our productive growing area is length x width x height. We run 1000 watt lights because they provide the most _height _of productive growing area. I like a minimum of 24" of marketable buds on the plant...preferably more. The only way I've found to get that is to prune. If I leave my plants un pruned, they end up so bushy that my productive height is about 12" - 16" max. The bottom 8" - 12" do not recieve enough light in early/mid bloom to generate bud size, and in late bloom to fully ripen and densify. I've found that if I prune too late, the lower buds may ripen and densify, but lack size due to insufficient light in early/mid bloom.

I think that any pruning regime should start with a goal. Again, my goal is to allow light into the lower levels of the plant without letting that light hit the table. I've always felt that the first rule of canopy shape in an indoor grow is for as little light to hit the tray as possible. Any light hitting the tray is wasted. I started following the "no light on the tray rule" years before I started pruning. Yes, I was using all my light, but much of it was being spent growing small and under developed buds. Now, if I've pruned right, every single bud grown is of marketable size, ripeness, and density. To date, this has never happened. LOL. But, there are very few buds that go into the keif making pile.

So there it is. How I prune and why. I'd like to hear other folk's pruning techniques and goals.

The next conversation we all should have along this line is plant density and training. To me, getting that canopy shape and density _just right_ is the key to large yields indoors. It's also the most challenging aspect of growing for me. Everything else is pretty easy. Once you have your nutes, lights, atmosphere, and cloning dialed in, there's not much to it. But, keeping that plant density and canopy shape perfect takes alot of time, concentration, and record keeping on every crop. This is the shit that has the most impact on my yield. One little mistake on this front always costs me weight: Plants too big, too small. Too many per sq ft...to few. Poor pruning. Lights too high...too low. This is where the work is...and also where the money is made.

So, gang. Let's hear it. Tell us about your canopy.


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## TheLastWood (Aug 23, 2011)

I used to lst but all those damn strings get in the way when I water. 

Now I supercrop. Just as effective, actually more. When the "knuckle" hardens up it turns to bark and its better for supporting the weight of buds. And its instant. As the plant heals it starts growing upwards again and I do it agaain. 

I also have a way to get 4 or 2 main tops without toping. Just supercrop right above a node with a 1-3" "clone" growing. Cut 1 clone of 1 side and leave 1. Bend the main stock away from the remaining "clone". The "clone" should be the highest poin on the plant now and will turn into a dominant cola. The main stalk will grow up again and you will have 2.

If the nodes under the node you just made dominant are close enough then they will also grow up at an accelerated rate from the auxin boost and you will have 4 main branches.

Top em all or just 2 ofyour new main branches and then flower. 

Or do 2 cola method, then double pot and flower which is what I do now.


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## drgreentm (Aug 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Wow...I've never seen so many pruners in one place. Should we have a secret handshake?
> 
> My method is more of gradual accelerating technique. My goal is simply to allow light down to my target growth are throughout the life of the plant. I may take 1 or 2 of the BIG upper fan leaves in veg...maybe. If there's one leaf thats shading 2 or 3 shoots, I figure those shoots are more important than one leaf. Once in bloom, before the stretch is complete I will just take 1 or 2 big uppers...just like in veg. After the stretch I take the plant off the tray to a table and remove all lower growth that's not going to be worth a shit. I may also remove some middle smaller shoots togive the primary branches ample room. This is the when I'm deciding which branches are going to be the winners, and which are just going into the trash. At this time I do a pretty good fan leaf removal. All the BIG leaves in the upper third of middle of the plant go. I leave the outside leaves as long as they're not hanging out so far as to shade the plant next door. Now, all through the bloom stage, as the plants become bushy, I keep thinning the upper 2/3's...just a few leaves at a time. About week 5 I go wholesale slaughter. Every fan leaf with an exposed stem goes. I'm left with just branches covered (hopefully) with golf ball sized buds and bud leaves.
> 
> ...


 hey CG great read as usual buddy, i am running the E&G like hellraizor and running the bubba as well. i had took your advice on them last round (topped and vegged to 18") with great results (roughly 3 oz's a plant) now on this run i have supercropped along with defoliating the centers to allow more light to the lower mid section and they are looking great at this point. wont know for sure for another 5 weeks but its looking much better than the last run, but we will see you never know until it finally hits the scale. i have turned these plants into some pretty good yielders with pruning and training, i think pruning and training is all strain dependent and learning your strain and what it requires (weather that be the less conventional approach or not) is the key to having success with any mehtod


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## collective gardener (Aug 23, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> I used to lst but all those damn strings get in the way when I water.
> 
> Now I supercrop. Just as effective, actually more. When the "knuckle" hardens up it turns to bark and its better for supporting the weight of buds. And its instant. As the plant heals it starts growing upwards again and I do it agaain.
> 
> ...


Wood,

It's clear that you have an intimate knowledge of your plants that could never be taught. I have noticed too that supercropping gives you a very sturdy plant. After you've bent, broke, snapped, and cipped, do you remove some of the lower shoots that appear as a response to the training?


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## Joedank (Aug 23, 2011)

for me it depends on the light source . indoors i thin alittle less than you CG but same general idea light to lowers trim up lower 6-10 inches ... in the greenhouse i thin slowly hitting hard a week six, outside i spot thin and spread as much as the branches allow... i like your style CG


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## collective gardener (Aug 23, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> hey CG great read as usual buddy, i am running the E&G like hellraizor and running the bubba as well. i had took your advice on them last round (topped and vegged to 18") with great results (roughly 3 oz's a plant) now on this run i have supercropped along with defoliating the centers to allow more light to the lower mid section and they are looking great at this point. wont know for sure for another 5 weeks but its looking much better than the last run, but we will see you never know until it finally hits the scale. i have turned these plants into some pretty good yielders with pruning and training, i think pruning and training is all strain dependent and learning your strain and what it requires (weather that be the less conventional approach or not) is the key to having success with any mehtod


 
3 Ozs. is our goal, as well. Right now I'm trying to figure out if I'm better with around 30 - 3 oz. plants per tray, or 45 2 oz plants. Typicall it's easier for me to get weight through more, smaller plants. But, I'm on this trip about using my vertical space. 

You hit the nail on the head with pruning success being strain dependant...and pheno withing the strain dependant. "all bubbas are not created equal".


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## kevin murphy (Aug 23, 2011)

hope all goin well for ya mate just put my new update on..if you ever want to see pics just hity my signature on bottom of post and it will take you the todays pics..


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## medicine21 (Aug 23, 2011)

cg, how long do you veg for to hit 3oz mark?


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## drgreentm (Aug 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> 3 Ozs. is our goal, as well. Right now I'm trying to figure out if I'm better with around 30 - 3 oz. plants per tray, or 45 2 oz plants. Typicall it's easier for me to get weight through more, smaller plants. But, I'm on this trip about using my vertical space.
> 
> You hit the nail on the head with pruning success being strain dependant...and pheno withing the strain dependant. "all bubbas are not created equal".


 3 oz's was what i got last time around and i have been vegging for a while prably like 4+ weeks, this is where the supercropping comes in handy so i dont end up with tall plants, i shape and mold them to fit them where i need them to be. im very happy with these bubba's the final product is just that good. de foliating the centers has really seemed to help allot this round as all the flowers seem to be the same in size and density even for 4 weeks in. anyway i will stop rambling now lol, the op looks great and thanks for all the pricless help/knowledge you have given, if you get a chance stop by the and check out the grow.


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## collective gardener (Aug 23, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> cg, how long do you veg for to hit 3oz mark?


I'd say around 4 weeks from when the rooted cut goes into the 4" block. That would include one topping about a week into veg. There's a real "sweet spot" on veg time for us. Too little and the plant only throws about 1.5 ozs. I think the roots need X amount of time to be fully developed. Just a little too much time and the plant gets way too big...crowding out the neighbors and causing me to throw away plants for the sake of proper spacing. I hate that.

Today I went through all 50 plants on tray #1, final pruning, shuffling, and respacing. I noticed that about 1/3 of the plants did not get enough veg. They're the same height as the others, but the buds are underdeveloped and yield is going to suffer. About 10 of the plants are insanely heavy. I think these little fat fuckers are going to throw close to 4ozs. For the life of me I can't figure out what got the big ones so big and the small ones so small. The plants are consistantly moved about in bloom for equal light. Whatever it was, I think it occured in veg. I've notice the fat plants seemed better from about week 2 in bloom. I'm going to start being more diligent in veg getting the plants under the best light ( I have 6 fucking 1000 watt lights in veg...I should be able to provide great lighting). Sometimes I get lazy in veg...spending my time in the bloom room. This is stupid because I know that veg is what determines your yield potential. 20+ years in this racket and still fucking up.


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## TheLastWood (Aug 23, 2011)

Yeah I do remove lower small twigs and buds. 

Another thing I do Is supercrop all of my "tops" 1 node below the top of the shortest top". 1 node low is perfect cuz when the branch starts growing back up they will all be level with the lowest top, giving me a flat top and a wider diameter.

I'm also recently getting away from bigger bushes and doing more smaller plants. There seems to be a point of diminishing returns on veging. Like past 4-5 weeks its not as efficient as double potting with a 2-3 week veg. I don't use 1000 watters 

I have 2x400 watt ceramic metal halide side by side in a 4x6 room.


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## Wolverine97 (Aug 23, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yeah I do remove lower small twigs and buds.
> 
> Another thing I do Is supercrop all of my "tops" 1 node below the top of the shortest top". 1 node low is perfect cuz when the branch starts growing back up they will all be level with the lowest top, giving me a flat top and a wider diameter.
> 
> ...


What kind of yield are you pulling from that, if you don't mind? I ask because I'm adding another room about that size and I'm going back and forth about whether to do 400 cmh's (already have one setup), or just go with the 600's I was planning on.


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## collective gardener (Aug 24, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> What kind of yield are you pulling from that, if you don't mind? I ask because I'm adding another room about that size and I'm going back and forth about whether to do 400 cmh's (already have one setup), or just go with the 600's I was planning on.


I vote 600's. That will give you 50 watts/sq ft.


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## kckid816 (Aug 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Wow...I've never seen so many pruners in one place. Should we have a secret handshake?
> 
> My method is more.


That's exactly how I prune. I look at it as they would lose some of the leaves in nature anyways (wind, predators, etc) that the plant won't freak out if I thin them out. I get more aggressive later to make sure more bud gets light.


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## Wolverine97 (Aug 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I vote 600's. That will give you 50 watts/sq ft.


Yeah, that was my original plan but I've been very intrigued by the amount of hype that the newer ceramic metal halides have been getting. They have an absolute kick ass spectrum, with a healthy dose of UV-b for increased thc production, along with a lot less heat to deal with. I typically run 1000's, but I'm getting bored again and feel the need to experiment...


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## C.Indica (Aug 24, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Yeah, that was my original plan but I've been very intrigued by the amount of hype that the newer ceramic metal halides have been getting. They have an absolute kick ass spectrum, with a healthy dose of UV-b for increased thc production, along with a lot less heat to deal with. I typically run 1000's, but I'm getting bored again and feel the need to experiment...


I'm saving money for a nice 150w/250w CMH setup.
They look kickass.


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## TheLastWood (Aug 24, 2011)

Imo 400w cmh > 600w hps and 2x400 w cmh > 1000w hps

But its rly not the watts per sq ft that matter. The plants don't see watts. 

An hps is like a brute forve attack where you output intense amounts of heat and light, a fraction of which is useful to plants.

One look at the spectrum of a cmh and you will see what I mean. I can run my plants farther from the light with same results.

And for my yield, I haven't maxed out the lights yet but I'm getting ready too fill the room so ill let you know.

I've harvested a few plants under it and my yield did improve from the 400w hps. The nugs were also harder and frostier. But the jack herer is the only strain I grew in both hps and cmh 

I planned on slowing/stopping for summer so I didn't have a lot of plants going then I got the cmh so haven't had the room stuffed yet


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## collective gardener (Aug 24, 2011)

kckid816 said:


> That's exactly how I prune. I look at it as they would lose some of the leaves in nature anyways (wind, predators, etc) that the plant won't freak out if I thin them out. I get more aggressive later to make sure more bud gets light.


That is true about the outdoor plants in nature. I know that is doesn't "hurt" the plant to prune it. My plants don't even seem to stunt after a healthy trim back. I've gone at 5' mother plants with hedge cutters, shearing off the top foot of the entire plant. I bloomed that plant a week later and got almost a pound.


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## rosecitypapa (Aug 24, 2011)

TLW, can you retrofit any 400 mh ballast or just a certain type? I'm wanting to experiment with vertical lighting arrays and those cmh's are intriguing to me in that application.


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## collective gardener (Aug 24, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Yeah, that was my original plan but I've been very intrigued by the amount of hype that the newer ceramic metal halides have been getting. They have an absolute kick ass spectrum, with a healthy dose of UV-b for increased thc production, along with a lot less heat to deal with. I typically run 1000's, but I'm getting bored again and feel the need to experiment...


I'm always leary of sacrificing lumens for spectrum. The LED claims are a perfect example of this. Theoretically 200 watts of LED lighting should do the job of 600 watts of HPS. Well, in theory that's very nice. In reality, that's BS. I'd hate to see you give up the brightness of a 600 in exchange for claims of spectrum improvements. You know, in theory, a metal halide has a MUCH better PAR value than an HPS. Yet, ever bloom with your MH next to your HPS? I have. That's why I still bloom with HPS. 

There was one significant improvement in HPS lighting that really does increase yield. It happened around 1993-1995. It was the advent of the "enhanced blue spectrum" HPS. The Son Agro, or the Agro Son (I always forget which one), was the first blue enhanced HPS bulb. Prior to this invention, any grower worth his salt was running 1 MH for every 2 HPS in his/her bloom room. Most of us ran Sun Circles. Then, a series of articles in growing publications highlighted the new blue enhanced HPS. We all ran out and bought some of these new bulbs. Holy shit. These things really worked. They made a huge difference over growing with the old HPS bulbs. These bulbs were the precursers of the most popular HPS bulb today...the Hortilux Eye. 

Companies that sell their bulbs/lights with a 10 page explanation of why their bulbs should out perform others scare me. But, hey Wolverine, if you do get them run a test for us. It's nice in this group we can run independant studies of anything we buy.


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## C.Indica (Aug 24, 2011)

It's only a few thousand lumens CG, and after another 6" it barely even makes a difference.
Hahahahaha.

But you've given me hope on HPS bulbs, I was convinced they were bad news.


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## Wolverine97 (Aug 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I'm always leary of sacrificing lumens for spectrum. The LED claims are a perfect example of this. Theoretically 200 watts of LED lighting should do the job of 600 watts of HPS. Well, in theory that's very nice. In reality, that's BS. I'd hate to see you give up the brightness of a 600 in exchange for claims of spectrum improvements. You know, in theory, a metal halide has a MUCH better PAR value than an HPS. Yet, ever bloom with your MH next to your HPS? I have. That's why I still bloom with HPS.
> 
> There was one significant improvement in HPS lighting that really does increase yield. It happened around 1993-1995. It was the advent of the "enhanced blue spectrum" HPS. The Son Agro, or the Agro Son (I always forget which one), was the first blue enhanced HPS bulb. Prior to this invention, any grower worth his salt was running 1 MH for every 2 HPS in his/her bloom room. Most of us ran Sun Circles. Then, a series of articles in growing publications highlighted the new blue enhanced HPS. We all ran out and bought some of these new bulbs. Holy shit. These things really worked. They made a huge difference over growing with the old HPS bulbs. These bulbs were the precursers of the most popular HPS bulb today...the Hortilux Eye.
> 
> Companies that sell their bulbs/lights with a 10 page explanation of why their bulbs should out perform others scare me. But, hey Wolverine, if you do get them run a test for us. It's nice in this group we can run independant studies of anything we buy.


Oh for sure, none of that is lost on me at all. I've always used 1kw hps (Eye Hortilux the past 5 years), but I've been watching a lot of people's grows who are using the cmh's, and they're interesting to say the least. LED has never been something I've considered, but these things have my attention. Another factor is overall power usage, I'm running out of space in my main panel... gotta quit adding shit.


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## Jozikins (Aug 24, 2011)

Since it is part of the subject thought I would let you know I pulled my 600w HPS bulb from my tent that went dim and orange on me the other day and popped a standard 400w MH in there with no lens on the hood. I was looking for my Hortilux Blue but couldn't find it, so a standard will do fine for the day or 2 until I locate it. Either way, I want to see if it really will increase my resin count. The bulb is much brighter than my defective HPS bulb, which only lasted three months, which is a bummer. I've never screwed around with MH in flower, but decided it was worth a shot seeing as my HPS burned up and I really don't want to drive down the hill to get a new Sun Master. I've ran a lot of Sun Master and a lot of Hortilux, and even though the Hotilux is more consistant, the Sun Master is bright as fuck for the first 6 months, and then dims down like clockwork. The new Digilux by CAP are fucking amazing too, but I've only played with the 400w HPS. 

Anyways, I'll let you guys know if I see a significant improvement, if not, it's just a good way to save power for the last week, lol.


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## kevin murphy (Aug 24, 2011)

could be really nice that lad im thinking of doin that let me know the results will ya..


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## kevin murphy (Aug 24, 2011)

excellent post mate i didnt know that but i wonder if the more blue in flower coming to the end results in more resin have u tried it and is it good and worth doin


collective gardener said:


> I'm always leary of sacrificing lumens for spectrum. The LED claims are a perfect example of this. Theoretically 200 watts of LED lighting should do the job of 600 watts of HPS. Well, in theory that's very nice. In reality, that's BS. I'd hate to see you give up the brightness of a 600 in exchange for claims of spectrum improvements. You know, in theory, a metal halide has a MUCH better PAR value than an HPS. Yet, ever bloom with your MH next to your HPS? I have. That's why I still bloom with HPS.
> 
> There was one significant improvement in HPS lighting that really does increase yield. It happened around 1993-1995. It was the advent of the "enhanced blue spectrum" HPS. The Son Agro, or the Agro Son (I always forget which one), was the first blue enhanced HPS bulb. Prior to this invention, any grower worth his salt was running 1 MH for every 2 HPS in his/her bloom room. Most of us ran Sun Circles. Then, a series of articles in growing publications highlighted the new blue enhanced HPS. We all ran out and bought some of these new bulbs. Holy shit. These things really worked. They made a huge difference over growing with the old HPS bulbs. These bulbs were the precursers of the most popular HPS bulb today...the Hortilux Eye.
> 
> Companies that sell their bulbs/lights with a 10 page explanation of why their bulbs should out perform others scare me. But, hey Wolverine, if you do get them run a test for us. It's nice in this group we can run independant studies of anything we buy.


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## Jozikins (Aug 24, 2011)

kevin murphy said:


> could be really nice that lad im thinking of doin that let me know the results will ya..


 You got it buddy.


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## davidgrimm (Aug 24, 2011)

CG

Did WAMM work out for you?


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## collective gardener (Aug 24, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> Since it is part of the subject thought I would let you know I pulled my 600w HPS bulb from my tent that went dim and orange on me the other day and popped a standard 400w MH in there with no lens on the hood. I was looking for my Hortilux Blue but couldn't find it, so a standard will do fine for the day or 2 until I locate it. Either way, I want to see if it really will increase my resin count. The bulb is much brighter than my defective HPS bulb, which only lasted three months, which is a bummer. I've never screwed around with MH in flower, but decided it was worth a shot seeing as my HPS burned up and I really don't want to drive down the hill to get a new Sun Master. I've ran a lot of Sun Master and a lot of Hortilux, and even though the Hotilux is more consistant, the Sun Master is bright as fuck for the first 6 months, and then dims down like clockwork. The new Digilux by CAP are fucking amazing too, but I've only played with the 400w HPS.
> 
> Anyways, I'll let you guys know if I see a significant improvement, if not, it's just a good way to save power for the last week, lol.


we're running 12 - 1000 watt Digilux's in our bloom room. They're the best bulbs I've ever used. More output than the Eye, and far better output after 6 months of use. They just don't seem to get much dimmer. I've only lost around 5% in 6 months.


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## collective gardener (Aug 24, 2011)

davidgrimm said:


> CG
> 
> Did WAMM work out for you?


 
I sent em an email offering free meds...haven't heard back. Thank you very much for the lead, though


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## collective gardener (Aug 24, 2011)

kevin murphy said:


> excellent post mate i didnt know that but i wonder if the more blue in flower coming to the end results in more resin have u tried it and is it good and worth doin


 
I've used Horti's for a dozen years and just switched to Digilux's when I switched to all Digital Ballasts. I have to say that I still think 2 parts HPS and 1 part MH is the best. It's just too much a pain in the ass. I thought of using a Hortilux Daylight Blue just for the last 2 weeks or so. I have one in the veg room and it provides the tightest node spacing of any light I've used. It's not too bright...80,000 lux for a 1000, and very expensive...over $200.

I think an assembly line trpe lighting may be the best: MH for the first 2 weeks of bloom to stack the nodes tight, then HPS for weeks 3-6 to develope the buds, then maybe some crazy combo including the reptile light the last 2 weeks for resin developement. There just has to be a ballance between the perfect product and keeping the work load managable. I almost need 2 complete grow ops: One for production, and one smaller one to try out different stuff.


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## collective gardener (Aug 24, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Oh for sure, none of that is lost on me at all. I've always used 1kw hps (Eye Hortilux the past 5 years), but I've been watching a lot of people's grows who are using the cmh's, and they're interesting to say the least. LED has never been something I've considered, but these things have my attention. Another factor is overall power usage, I'm running out of space in my main panel... gotta quit adding shit.


If you run out of available amps, but still have space, a flip op is the way to go. I may just build another bloom room and run it on a flip using my existing room's ballasts and power supply. I think a 4 light flip box is around $225.00....far less than 4 new ballasts.


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## Jozikins (Aug 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I've used Horti's for a dozen years and just switched to Digilux's when I switched to all Digital Ballasts. I have to say that I still think 2 parts HPS and 1 part MH is the best. It's just too much a pain in the ass. I thought of using a Hortilux Daylight Blue just for the last 2 weeks or so. I have one in the veg room and it provides the tightest node spacing of any light I've used. It's not too bright...80,000 lux for a 1000, and very expensive...over $200.
> 
> I think an assembly line trpe lighting may be the best: MH for the first 2 weeks of bloom to stack the nodes tight, then HPS for weeks 3-6 to develope the buds, then maybe some crazy combo including the reptile light the last 2 weeks for resin developement. There just has to be a ballance between the perfect product and keeping the work load managable. I almost need 2 complete grow ops: One for production, and one smaller one to try out different stuff.


That's what I eventually had to do. As a salesman I have a round tail and am a sucker for a good marketing campaign, so I eventually had to build a small unit to test new products and techniques in. It was a worthwhile investment, it rocket propelled me through a lot of extra experience in the beginning. I recently bought a tent to keep doing this, because I gave the test unit to an old room mate/grow partner when I moved out. Hortilux Blue's are pretty fucking awesome man, waayyyy to expensive, lumens are wayyyy to low, but some how they consistently give better growth just through the spectrum. I am looking for mine right now, I wanted to put that over my plants instead of some standard industrial grade MH.


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## Jozikins (Aug 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> we're running 12 - 1000 watt Digilux's in our bloom room. They're the best bulbs I've ever used. More output than the Eye, and far better output after 6 months of use. They just don't seem to get much dimmer. I've only lost around 5% in 6 months.


I wish I could like this twice. The Digilux are the hot shit. I think I'll skimp on the Sun Master and get a Digilux this round.


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## Wolverine97 (Aug 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> If you run out of available amps, but still have space, a flip op is the way to go. I may just build another bloom room and run it on a flip using my existing room's ballasts and power supply. I think a 4 light flip box is around $225.00....far less than 4 new ballasts.


I've actually been looking into that, thanks cg.


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 24, 2011)

im thinking of switching to digi ballast, you guys see that much of a difference it output?


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## collective gardener (Aug 25, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> im thinking of switching to digi ballast, you guys see that much of a difference it output?


Hell,
No difference in output. They are quite. I like the dimmable feature for after spraying. You can run either MH or HPS bulbs in them, too.


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## kevin murphy (Aug 25, 2011)

nice 1 for the info collective mate im gunna try it a week before lights out..


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## collective gardener (Aug 25, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> That's what I eventually had to do. As a salesman I have a round tail and am a sucker for a good marketing campaign, so I eventually had to build a small unit to test new products and techniques in. It was a worthwhile investment, it rocket propelled me through a lot of extra experience in the beginning. I recently bought a tent to keep doing this, because I gave the test unit to an old room mate/grow partner when I moved out. Hortilux Blue's are pretty fucking awesome man, waayyyy to expensive, lumens are wayyyy to low, but some how they consistently give better growth just through the spectrum. I am looking for mine right now, I wanted to put that over my plants instead of some standard industrial grade MH.


The Horti Daylight Blue is a nice light. Only one of my 6 Veg 1000's has that bulb. I put the plants under it just after topping for tighter node spacing. Another fantastic veg light is the Pulse Start by SunPulse. The other 5 of my veg lights burn Pulse Starts in a 6.4K color temp. These lights are way bright. Originally we were growing trees, so I wanted veg lights with big lumens for penetration. These were the lights. Now I put plants under the Daylight Blue for about 10 days after topping, then move them under the Pulse Starts for the rest of veg. My one magnetic ballast runs the Daylight Blue light. I saved that ballast from my last grow. I believe the digital ballast will destroy that Daylight Blue light in a few months. The only light bulbs we use are designed to work with digital ballasts (except the Daylight Blue).


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## C.Indica (Aug 25, 2011)

I love coming here to learn stuff.
Thanks.

Honestly, thanks for your trouble CG


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## kevin murphy (Aug 25, 2011)

my daily updates are in my signature mate if u want to stop by sumtime to improve my grow that be great thanks for the advice cg..


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## TheLastWood (Aug 25, 2011)

Don't let the false led claims make you think spectrum is not important. The cmh is not "hyped" up. There's plenty of proof all over the web. 

Think about it, your talking about how the blue spectrum hps are the best, the cmh is basically a white(blue) light hps.

And they do have a new cmh that runs on a mh ballast but I use the hps ballast

The led claims to have the best spectrum but the cmh is the closest spectrum to the suns and puts out uvb. 

The led doesn't have the engine of an hid pushing that spectrum, and I even have doubts about the leds spectrum.



collective gardener said:


> I'm always leary of sacrificing lumens for spectrum. The LED claims are a perfect example of this. Theoretically 200 watts of LED lighting should do the job of 600 watts of HPS. Well, in theory that's very nice. In reality, that's BS. I'd hate to see you give up the brightness of a 600 in exchange for claims of spectrum improvements. You know, in theory, a metal halide has a MUCH better PAR value than an HPS. Yet, ever bloom with your MH next to your HPS? I have. That's why I still bloom with HPS.
> 
> There was one significant improvement in HPS lighting that really does increase yield. It happened around 1993-1995. It was the advent of the "enhanced blue spectrum" HPS. The Son Agro, or the Agro Son (I always forget which one), was the first blue enhanced HPS bulb. Prior to this invention, any grower worth his salt was running 1 MH for every 2 HPS in his/her bloom room. Most of us ran Sun Circles. Then, a series of articles in growing publications highlighted the new blue enhanced HPS. We all ran out and bought some of these new bulbs. Holy shit. These things really worked. They made a huge difference over growing with the old HPS bulbs. These bulbs were the precursers of the most popular HPS bulb today...the Hortilux Eye.
> 
> Companies that sell their bulbs/lights with a 10 page explanation of why their bulbs should out perform others scare me. But, hey Wolverine, if you do get them run a test for us. It's nice in this group we can run independant studies of anything we buy.


----------



## collective gardener (Aug 26, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Don't let the false led claims make you think spectrum is not important. The cmh is not "hyped" up. There's plenty of proof all over the web.
> 
> Think about it, your talking about how the blue spectrum hps are the best, the cmh is basically a white(blue) light hps.
> 
> ...


I would be _far_ more likely to try the CMH over any LED settup. At least I know the CMH is going to crank out some lumens. Also, I've actually _seen_ some nice crops come from under the CMH's. All I've seen from LED is some mediocre looking buds, and dozens of pages explaining to me like I'm a 5 year old why the LED is the best possible light for my garden. They give us this detailed explanation of how inefficient HID is, and how perfect the LED spectrum is...and that when you have a perfect spectrum, actually brightness isn't as important. And then there's the line about how my plants can only use 10% of what my HPS lights put out. Well, that's all fine and dandy. But the bottom line is that I don't give a rat's ass about any of that. I don't really care as much about why a light works as the simple fact that it works. To date, I have never seen an LED grow that comes anywhere close to HID grows. 

The CMH is interesting stuff. I think it would do best in concert with some good quality HPS lighting. I'm not hip on how to use the bulbs, though. Can they be fired with a Phantom Digital Ballast? If so, it would be easy enough for me to pick up a couple bulbs. I seem to remember seeing that I can't do that, though. In any case, I am very interested in seeing your guy's results with the CMH. Especially if you run a side by side with either a Horti Eye, or Digilux. On a side note, I'm still watching the developing inductive lighting. This seems to hold more promise as a low heat, long lasting alternative to HID. 

Once I seal the grow with a new 30,000 BTU A/C, I'm going to get a tent going in some warehouse space outside the main grow for trying new shit. The first thing to be tried will probably be inductive lighting. I'll even make it easy on the lights and grow 4 plants/ sq ft...finishing the plants at around 16" tall. I have very little hope that we're anywhere close to a low heat light that has the penetration to grow 36" tall plants.


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## collective gardener (Aug 26, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Don't let the false led claims make you think spectrum is not important. The cmh is not "hyped" up. There's plenty of proof all over the web.
> 
> Think about it, your talking about how the blue spectrum hps are the best, the cmh is basically a white(blue) light hps.
> 
> ...


To be clear, I have not said that blue spectrum HPS are the best. Blue spectrum _enhanced_ bulbs are my favorites. Those bulbs are still very red, which is what is needed in bloom. It's just that the older style and modern cheap HPS bulbs lack(ed) _any_ blue. 20 years ago we would add some MH to the bloom room to improve results. These blue enhanced bulbs negated the need to do that...to a point. I still feel that 2 hps and 1 mh will probably give better results than the best HPS bulb. But mixing different bulbs to provide even coverage requires a light mover...and they're a pain. The blue in bloom greatly improves the leaf growth and node spacing at the stretch. The leaves are much better looking and more plentiful, reducing the impact of removing leaves shading the lower plant. Having more healthy leaves in bloom allows us to remove many unwanted leaves, while retaining enough to generate the energy needed.

As always. I want to be clear that all this shit is just my opinion. I know plenty of growers that do things very different, yet get as good or better results than myself. I respect and admire everything you folks do out there. I enjoy our discussions, and am truly interested in hearing what you guys are trying and how it's working for you. It's just too bad we can't all sit around a pitcher of Pale Ale and a Volcano, giving eachother shit about our fucked up growing styles. There's nothing funner than prodding the Granola Head organic growers with my tales of chemical spraying and salty nutes. Yet, I usually prefer their smoke for personal stash. I f we all grew the same and agreed with everyone's growing style, this website would be offline tomorrow. It's the different styles and opinions that keep it all interesting. I truly dig all of you and am always pulling for you to crank out your best harvest ever.


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## C.Indica (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm almost sure you like to brutalize your plants quickly and get monster results.
But if you have the time for precision and delicate pruning,
https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/459219-prune-top-little-no-stress.html


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## kevin murphy (Aug 26, 2011)

if you have any bud pics post em in the new thread i made growers

ultimate collection of buds...

*lollypopping....

new lollipop thread *


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## TheLastWood (Aug 26, 2011)

Gardener you can't use the cmh on a digi ballast and they only currently go up to 400w.

They are not the best choice for you lol.

but for me, they are perfect. I use the same bulb for veg and flower, 

If you can afford 2 ballasts then I think 2 x 400 watt is better than a 1000w. I think 2 points of light elimnates shading very well.

What do u think cg?


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## collective gardener (Aug 26, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Gardener you can't use the cmh on a digi ballast and they only currently go up to 400w.
> 
> They are not the best choice for you lol.
> 
> ...


I like the idea of 2 - 600's to replace 1 - 1000. If the CMH only come in 400's...well...that's that. The light spread is definately more even, but it is 20% less light. I think if it's a choice of 1 - 1000 or 2 - 400's, the 400's could make sense. BUT, given a choice of 4 - 1000's or 8 - 400's, I'd take the 1000's hands down. A single light is just not very efficient. You really benefit from multiple lights...using the spill from neighbor lights to even out the lumens striking the canopy. We run 2 rows of 5 - 1000 watt lights per row. Then I have a third row with just 2 lights. The rest of the space is for door opening, A/C's, fans, etc...So, my point is, it's important to have multiple lights. If your condition, or light choice limit you to 400's...no prob. If conditions allow, and you subscribe to the "better growing through superior firepower" technique (as I do), run the 1000's.

That being said, my partner op (who out grows me on every front) grows with 600's every 3x3 square. He also uses Magnum XXXL reflectors. It's basically total light over the whole canopy. I think he's running 32 - 600's. This is probably the best settup as far as total even light coverage balanced with intensity...it's just expensive as fuck. He started with 1000's, but a couple 20lb sales allowed him to re-design the room. I've ran a light meter under his lights and the intensity is even within 10% anywhere on the massive 300+ sq ft tray. The edges of the reflectors are almost touching eachother. I'm not sure I'd be as impressed with such an op loaded with 400's every 2.5 feet square. The 600's just seem to be a very nice size for mutiple light grows. I should also mention that the same guy has a small grow in his garage where he lives. There, he blooms with 4 - 1000 watt lights. His statement to me was that under 9 lights, use 1000's...9 lights and more, use 600's. I know the theory of what he's talking about. I'm not quite sure where he gets the 9 light cuttoff. Knowing him, though, there's a reason. I've begged him to let me take some pics of his op for RIU, but he refuses. It's the best grow op I've ever seen live or in pics.


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## drgreentm (Aug 26, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I like the idea of 2 - 600's to replace 1 - 1000. If the CMH only come in 400's...well...that's that. The light spread is definately more even, but it is 20% less light. I think if it's a choice of 1 - 1000 or 2 - 400's, the 400's could make sense. BUT, given a choice of 4 - 1000's or 8 - 400's, I'd take the 1000's hands down. A single light is just not very efficient. You really benefit from multiple lights...using the spill from neighbor lights to even out the lumens striking the canopy. We run 2 rows of 5 - 1000 watt lights per row. Then I have a third row with just 2 lights. The rest of the space is for door opening, A/C's, fans, etc...So, my point is, it's important to have multiple lights. If your condition, or light choice limit you to 400's...no prob. If conditions allow, and you subscribe to the "better growing through superior firepower" technique (as I do), run the 1000's.
> 
> That being said, my partner op (who out grows me on every front) grows with 600's every 3x3 square. He also uses Magnum XXXL reflectors. It's basically total light over the whole canopy. I think he's running 32 - 600's. This is probably the best settup as far as total even light coverage balanced with intensity...it's just expensive as fuck. He started with 1000's, but a couple 20lb sales allowed him to re-design the room. I've ran a light meter under his lights and the intensity is even within 10% anywhere on the massive 300+ sq ft tray. The edges of the reflectors are almost touching eachother. I'm not sure I'd be as impressed with such an op loaded with 400's every 2.5 feet square. The 600's just seem to be a very nice size for mutiple light grows. I should also mention that the same guy has a small grow in his garage where he lives. There, he blooms with 4 - 1000 watt lights. His statement to me was that under 9 lights, use 1000's...9 lights and more, use 600's. I know the theory of what he's talking about. I'm not quite sure where he gets the 9 light cuttoff. Knowing him, though, there's a reason. I've begged him to let me take some pics of his op for RIU, but he refuses. It's the best grow op I've ever seen live or in pics.


 wow that is crazy CG, i am running 6 400's (1 per 3x3) this is the way i figured the 400's would be most efficient. now if i was to run the same setup with 600's and magnum reflectors, geez i couldn't imagine. i was thinking of going 2 1000's in magnum reflectors but hmmm now you got me thinking lol, i was basically aiming for your friends home base setup (4 1000's over 24 plants) but that would be twice the amount in 600's if i went that route.


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## TheLastWood (Aug 26, 2011)

yeah its not a good setup for you but for me, its either 1 1000w or 2 400s and I know the cmh outperforms an hps watt per watt. Someday they will probably make 1000 watt cmh and I will be a happy camper.

I think a 1000 w cmh would give off too much uvb. That would be dangerous to work around. They do make cmh bulbs with a uv filter tho. I imagine they will make 600 w or at least bigger than 400 (430 would be nice) but you will probably need to get a special ballast that they make just for cmh.

I also use a bit less power which is a big concern.


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## collective gardener (Aug 26, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> wow that is crazy CG, i am running 6 400's (1 per 3x3) this is the way i figured the 400's would be most efficient. now if i was to run the same setup with 600's and magnum reflectors, geez i couldn't imagine. i was thinking of going 2 1000's in magnum reflectors but hmmm now you got me thinking lol, i was basically aiming for your friends home base setup (4 1000's over 24 plants) but that would be twice the amount in 600's if i went that route.


You would see a difference...a big one...running 600's in the same area of your 400's. You're putting down 45 watts/sq ft. 600's would give you around 68 watts/sq ft. A 1000 for every 4 x 4 space will give you 62 watts/sq ft. I like it up around 60 watts per sq ft. The big question would be if it's worth the time and $$$ to upgrade a nice functioning operation. There's no doubt it would pay for itself pretty fast. I really like 4 - 1000's over an 8 x 8 tray. The light is even enough that the only plant movement really needed is to turn the outside plants 180 degrees every few days. Now, the ultimate settup in a similar area would be 9 - 600's in a 9 x 9 space. Your per sq ft wattage goes from 62 (4 - 1000's in 8x to 68, and your lit area goes from 64 sq ft to 81 sq ft. Just the sq footage increase should represent a pound per cycle increase. 

If I were to build my grow again (which I will in a year or 2), I'd use 24 600's to light up a 9' x 24' area. I'd use either Raptor or Magnum reflectors. The reason I have 1000's is that we were trying to keep out plant count down growing trees. Well, now we have enough patients to grow several hundred plants on a SOG style canopy. 

Whether you go 4 - 1000's in an 8x8, or 9 600's in a 9x9, you'll see serious yield increases over you current settup. Depending on the strain, you'll see a 5 pack+ from the 8x8 1000's. That's with relatively low yielding OG's. I'd say 7ish from the 9x9 600's. These are rough estimates, of course. Yields vary SO MUCH room to room, grower to grower, and strain to strain. But the point is...you'll get back the $$$ you put in real quick. LOL


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## collective gardener (Aug 26, 2011)

You guys gotta see this. Don't give this guy too much shit. He's tried hard, but didn't think it through: https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/459188-6000-watt-hydro-crawl-space.html


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 27, 2011)

man I feel for that guy I thought my shit was tight lol DAM!!


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## collective gardener (Aug 27, 2011)

Here's some pics taken this morning. We'll be harvesting some of this next week through the week after. The room is basicall 2 - 8x8 tables, each lit by 4 - 1000 watt lights. There's 4 more 1000's in the bloom room that I put misc plants under. You'll see a 4x4 tray with 15 plants put into bloom today. There's also about 20 plants in buckets. I place the bucket plants in the walking srea so that I can light that area, but just move them out of the way come watering time. All the plants are in rockwool...either blocks or croutons in pots. I'm dialing in on exactly the best plant density/size/container for maximum yield.


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 1757205View attachment 1757204View attachment 1757203View attachment 1757202View attachment 1757200View attachment 1757199View attachment 1757198View attachment 1757197View attachment 1757194View attachment 1757193View attachment 1757192
> 
> Here's some pics taken this morning. We'll be harvesting some of this next week through the week after. The room is basicall 2 - 8x8 tables, each lit by 4 - 1000 watt lights. There's 4 more 1000's in the bloom room that I put misc plants under. You'll see a 4x4 tray with 15 plants put into bloom today. There's also about 20 plants in buckets. I place the bucket plants in the walking srea so that I can light that area, but just move them out of the way come watering time. All the plants are in rockwool...either blocks or croutons in pots. I'm dialing in on exactly the best plant density/size/container for maximum yield.


dam CG looking mighty awsome congrats on geting it dailed in!!


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## theexpress (Aug 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 1757205View attachment 1757204View attachment 1757203View attachment 1757202View attachment 1757200View attachment 1757199View attachment 1757198View attachment 1757197View attachment 1757194View attachment 1757193View attachment 1757192
> 
> Here's some pics taken this morning. We'll be harvesting some of this next week through the week after. The room is basicall 2 - 8x8 tables, each lit by 4 - 1000 watt lights. There's 4 more 1000's in the bloom room that I put misc plants under. You'll see a 4x4 tray with 15 plants put into bloom today. There's also about 20 plants in buckets. I place the bucket plants in the walking srea so that I can light that area, but just move them out of the way come watering time. All the plants are in rockwool...either blocks or croutons in pots. I'm dialing in on exactly the best plant density/size/container for maximum yield.


 
lol i just wanna say i hate you cuzz your living my dream and im not.... but also i love you for letting us get a glimps of your op!!!! plus rep bro and keep up the good work!!! im trying to be in your shoes..... how much did you drop on equip for a setup like that? about 15k worth of equip?>


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## zoombud (Aug 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 1757205View attachment 1757204View attachment 1757203View attachment 1757202View attachment 1757200View attachment 1757199View attachment 1757198View attachment 1757197View attachment 1757194View attachment 1757193View attachment 1757192
> 
> Here's some pics taken this morning. We'll be harvesting some of this next week through the week after. The room is basicall 2 - 8x8 tables, each lit by 4 - 1000 watt lights. There's 4 more 1000's in the bloom room that I put misc plants under. You'll see a 4x4 tray with 15 plants put into bloom today. There's also about 20 plants in buckets. I place the bucket plants in the walking srea so that I can light that area, but just move them out of the way come watering time. All the plants are in rockwool...either blocks or croutons in pots. I'm dialing in on exactly the best plant density/size/container for maximum yield.



this is heaven to my eyes. mmm i bet it smells good in there!


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## collective gardener (Aug 27, 2011)

theexpress said:


> lol i just wanna say i hate you cuzz your living my dream and im not.... but also i love you for letting us get a glimps of your op!!!! plus rep bro and keep up the good work!!! im trying to be in your shoes..... how much did you drop on equip for a setup like that? about 15k worth of equip?>


I don't know the cost breakdown...just the totals. We had to pay for the first 4 months lease and electricity, the materials for the build out, my labor, my helpers labor, and all of the grow equipment. The total cost was $80,000. One of the collective's members, a good friend of mine, loaned the collective the money for the startup. We has our attorney settup the whole loan note when he settup the "Collective Association". We make payments on the loan just like any other business. We're still "not for profit", which is necessary to stay compliant with California's med marijuana law. The cost of the loan payments as well as all other costs (my labor, wife's labor, trimming labor, growing supplies, lease, power, etc...) is compiled and divided by how many pounds are produced each month to establish a per pound price. So, when the loan is paid back, the cost of medicine to our members will go down.

There's a butt-load of paperwork required each month to keep us compliant. Fortunately, it's perfectly legal to be paid by the collective to generate said paperwork. Nobody gets rich if they're running a LEGAL collective. You can make a decent living, though, being paid for time spent on the grow. I recieve an IRS 1099 form from the collective for the money paid to me. I'll pay taxes on that as "non-employment compensation". As the industry moves forward and evolves, it will probablt be necessary to place all collective workers on payroll. For now, our lawyer is comfortable with 1099's.


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## collective gardener (Aug 27, 2011)

zoombud said:


> this is heaven to my eyes. mmm i bet it smells good in there!


Actually, there's very little smell. Besides the carbon filters scrubbing the exhaust air out of the building, we have 3 - 10" carbon filters scrubbing the air inside the bloom room. These just circulate about 3,000 cfm within the bloom room...scrubbing the air and exhausting it right back into the room. That means the entire room volume is scrubbed about every 2 minutes. This has been very effective in keeping the odor down without affecting the smell of the buds. If you stick your head into the canopy you can smell pot, but just standing in the room you smell nothing. The air is scrubbed again as it exhausts out of the bloom room into the main warehouse, and yet again when it exhausts the warehouse. All in all, we run 6 - 10 inch carbon filters, 2 - 14" carbon filters, and 1 - 6" carbon filter in the drying shack


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## C.Indica (Aug 27, 2011)

Is it too hot to work and think in that room?
I would make it a staple that my grow op is comfortable enough to loiter in.
Otherwise I don't see much productive work happening.

That looks beautiful, and I laughed when I saw party cup in a grow op this big.
I bet the wierd shape of rootball makes some interesting plants.

Great as always


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## kevin murphy (Aug 28, 2011)

excellent mate simple as that pal...excellent ..nout else to say so ill shut up


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## collective gardener (Aug 28, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> Is it too hot to work and think in that room?
> I would make it a staple that my grow op is comfortable enough to loiter in.
> Otherwise I don't see much productive work happening.
> 
> ...


Temp is never over 78f. It's bright in there, but not hot. 

Don't knock the party cups.LOL. Those were cuts I got from a friend when my clones weren't ready in time to fill some empty bloom space. I just cut the bottoms out of the cups and plant them right in a Hugo block. My buddy swears by tose cups. He uses a 50/50 mix of rockwoll croutons and #4 perlite in them. His rooted clones go into those cups for 2 weeks of veg time. The mix he uses promotes extremely fast root growth and gets the plants growing far faster than a rockwool block. I still use the blocks because I'm lazy, and my veg room is so big that a few more days in veg doesn't affect me. But those little party cups and the 50/50 mix are the fastest way to get a clone with just a few small roots into high speed growing mode.


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## Wolverine97 (Aug 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I don't know the cost breakdown...just the totals. We had to pay for the first 4 months lease and electricity, the materials for the build out, my labor, my helpers labor, and all of the grow equipment. The total cost was $80,000. One of the collective's members, a good friend of mine, loaned the collective the money for the startup. We has our attorney settup the whole loan note when he settup the "Collective Association". We make payments on the loan just like any other business. We're still "not for profit", which is necessary to stay compliant with California's med marijuana law. The cost of the loan payments as well as all other costs (my labor, wife's labor, trimming labor, growing supplies, lease, power, etc...) is compiled and divided by how many pounds are produced each month to establish a per pound price. So, when the loan is paid back, the cost of medicine to our members will go down.
> 
> There's a butt-load of paperwork required each month to keep us compliant. Fortunately, it's perfectly legal to be paid by the collective to generate said paperwork. Nobody gets rich if they're running a LEGAL collective. You can make a decent living, though, being paid for time spent on the grow. I recieve an IRS 1099 form from the collective for the money paid to me. I'll pay taxes on that as "non-employment compensation". As the industry moves forward and evolves, it will probablt be necessary to place all collective workers on payroll. For now, our lawyer is comfortable with 1099's.


Ok, now since you're on that topic:
This brings up an issue that I've questioned my attorney about, and he says I can't pay taxes like that. The reason being; it's federally illegal. He tells me that I can't pay federal taxes on an illegal activity... how do you claim the income? Is it just "consulting"? Just curious.


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## theexpress (Aug 28, 2011)

it cost 80k for a 20 light show???? wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! im guessing you bought everything from the grow shop huh? better off ordering online


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## TheLastWood (Aug 28, 2011)

Yeah cg pays full markup price for all his gear.

Noobs like him never get good deals, he obviously has no connections either. And things always cost more when you buy in bulk

(/sarcasm)


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## theexpress (Aug 28, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yeah cg pays full markup price for all his gear.
> 
> Noobs like him never get good deals, he obviously has no connections either. And things always cost more when you buy in bulk
> 
> (/sarcasm)


i dont understand are you tryna troll me or him????? bet money at any given time i can get a 1000 watt hps whole kit mh plus hps conversion, a bulb of each, hangers, timers, 6-8 inch vented hoods and temperd glass for like 270 bux a pop shipping included... same goes for everything else needed


ebay and amazon


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## TheLastWood (Aug 28, 2011)

wow now you only need 19000 more watts

A bigass warehouse, lawyers, laborers, medium, ph and ppm meters. Etc etc 

And tons more shit.

Not gonna argue here in this thread, too classy for that.

And I would never troll on cg, or act like he's a noob that spent too much on his grow op. 

<3 cg


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## collective gardener (Aug 28, 2011)

theexpress said:


> it cost 80k for a 20 light show???? wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! im guessing you bought everything from the grow shop huh? better off ordering online


Thanks Wood for helping with the reply. Saves me my sarcastic reply. 

If you read my post you'll see that equipment costs were only a part of the breakdown. I do buy at my local shop. And I pay less there than you pay online...no fucking doubt about it. As an example, I pay well under $300.00 out the door for a 1000 watt Phantom ballast. On everything else I get 25% of retail PLUS another $50 store credit for every $500 I spend. That's 35% off retail on every thing in the store or special ordered. 

How bout the electrical sub panels I needed to install to run those 20 lights? The lumber for the rooms? The labor framing? The electrical labor? 4 months power and lease bills....thats 12K right there. How about renting the crane to place the A/C unit of the roof? Wait! How bout the cost of the A/C unit. The roof fans. Labor installing roof fans. A roofer to flash roof fan penetration to 100% ensure against leaks. 15 gallons of primer, 15 gallons of paint...brushes, rollers, thinner. The 2 - 10' ladders we bought for construction and gear upkeep. 2 shop vacs. 6 trash cans...the good ones. Locks and deadbolts for every door. Custom welded security gate for front door...there's 2 grand. A total office settup including computer, internet hookup, files, desk, pens, pencils, and post its. Have you seen the price of post its? How bout all that steel shelving...can't just stack shit on the floor. Not to mention the electrical, HVAC, plumbing, and lighting design time. You think I just draw that shit up for free? There's a ton more. Notice how I dodn't even mention grow equipment? That's all most people think of.

95% of the labor building the op was done by myself and Helper D. I charge the collective a very fair hourly rate considering my construction and growing experience. Those 2 things are what I've done for a living since I was 15....I'm in my 40's. I promise you friend, even if you got the equipment at my price (which you couldn't), there is no way you could build this op for the price I did. 80k may sound like alot. But, I hope I've shown that more goes into a true professional grow op than some lights and fans. This why when I hear of people moving to California to make a fortune in pot, I don't worry. Most people have ZERO idea what it takes to get something like this going and to KEEP it going.


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## collective gardener (Aug 28, 2011)

theexpress said:


> i dont understand are you tryna troll me or him????? bet money at any given time i can get a 1000 watt hps whole kit mh plus hps conversion, a bulb of each, hangers, timers, 6-8 inch vented hoods and temperd glass for like 270 bux a pop shipping included... same goes for everything else needed
> 
> 
> ebay and amazon


 
That's neat. But, no proffesional commercial grower with a hydro shop within driving distance would EVER buy supplies online. Most of my buddies are large scale commercial growers and all of us shop local. When we build an op we walk in and make a deal with the owner/manager. We negotiate a discount...a deep one for the initial purchase and ALL future purchases. This way when a ballast goes bad (do this long enough and one will), we walk in the shop door and walk out with a new one. How long to replace your online ballast? If you only have a 4 light op, one light down is 25% of your operation. If I try a new nutrient and don't like it, I get store credit for the entire purchase price...even if I used the whole thing. No shipping. No phone calls. No bullshit that I don't have time for. 

As for your $270 light settup...you're comparing apples with oranges. I use only Digilux and Pulse Start bulbs. I use only Digital Ballasts because the noise of 20 mag ballasts would have LEO on my ass in 2 days. If spending a bit more to buy the highest possible quality equipment only gets me a 2% increase in yield, it pays for itself and much MUCH more. My bulbs put out 10% more light than a Hort i Eye (which isn't a cheap bulb, either). That 10% tanslates into damn near a 10% increase in yield. That's almost an extra pound a month...every month for the life of the bulb...which is also much longer than budget bulbs. I think an extra 2 grand a month makes it worth the money to buy top of the line. 

Growing is just like anything else. Those that wrench on their car for fun buy tools at Harbor Freight, mechanics buy SnapOn. People who grow for a living don't waste their time on cheap gear. It justs costs more money in the long run.


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## C.Indica (Aug 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Temp is never over 78f. It's bright in there, but not hot.
> 
> Don't knock the party cups.LOL. Those were cuts I got from a friend when my clones weren't ready in time to fill some empty bloom space. I just cut the bottoms out of the cups and plant them right in a Hugo block. My buddy swears by tose cups. He uses a 50/50 mix of rockwoll croutons and #4 perlite in them. His rooted clones go into those cups for 2 weeks of veg time. The mix he uses promotes extremely fast root growth and gets the plants growing far faster than a rockwool block. I still use the blocks because I'm lazy, and my veg room is so big that a few more days in veg doesn't affect me. But those little party cups and the 50/50 mix are the fastest way to get a clone with just a few small roots into high speed growing mode.


Just read all this page, relax brother, go make some tea and sit out in the sun for a minute.
Hahaha the cups.
I knock them because they dry out fast. How do you combat this?
Actually, make that last question important, I really would like to know how you combat small volumes of dirt drying out.
I still use soil for now, but some day I might check out your method.

Anyways I'm off for some nature, enjoy your day to the fullest CG


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## theexpress (Aug 28, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> wow now you only need 19000 more watts
> 
> A bigass warehouse, lawyers, laborers, medium, ph and ppm meters. Etc etc
> 
> ...


lol why you wanna flame me???? 270 x 20= 5400..... also you can get everything cheap has hell on ebay were talking high cfm fans, meters, nutes, fucking soil,huge ass carbon scrubbers anything waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay cheaper then any hydro shop...... i woulda got all that same equip he has for like 12-15...........

and i like how you asumed i was trying to be negative to the op ...... your a fool..... ima ignore you from now on...


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## collective gardener (Aug 28, 2011)

theexpress said:


> lol why you wanna flame me???? 270 x 20= 5400..... also you can get everything cheap has hell on ebay were talking high cfm fans, meters, nutes, fucking soil,huge ass carbon scrubbers anything waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay cheaper then any hydro shop...... i woulda got all that same equip he has for like 12-15...........
> 
> and i like how you asumed i was trying to be negative to the op ...... your a fool..... ima ignore you from now on...


Please don't call people names here. "you're a fool" is what I'm talking about.

Please read my response on the expenses beyond just grow gear, and the reason I prefer to purchase gear from my local hydro store. I have the technology to buy online...I choose not to. When someone hands YOU a checkbook with 100k of their money in it to build a grow op, you can spend it however you want.

Please end this entire discussion here. Everytime you post, you slip in an insult to me. I'm getting tired of it. If you read my entire thread, you'll see I've never called anyone a name, or insulted anyone in any way. I am proud that there have only been 3 negative posters on the entire thread. You, sir, are #3. Congadulations.

If you have something to share beyond your keen insight into my ignorance on bargain hunting, please feel free to do so. But, I think you've made your point on this topic. I'm a total fool for buying gear at my local store when all this time I could've been saving thousands buying online.


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 28, 2011)

always a hater somewhere  I dont buy online either!! dont sweat it CG


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## drgreentm (Aug 28, 2011)

i don't mean in anyway to drag out a negative conversation but just thought i would throw in my personal experience in the matter. i bought all six of my light kits from the hydro store and saw some light kits on ebay for like half the price with a digi ballast, so i bought a kit and i can say this thing is garbage plain and simple, the digi ballast runs hotter than my mag ballast i am literally in fear of my house burning down from this thing lol, its funny actually. anyway since buying so much from the hydro store they have given me a constant 10% off any purchase and 20% off any purchase over 1000 so im happy. also i have searched ebay quite often and anything name brand i have usually been able to get cheaper from my locals (and i do mean "NAME BRAND" not self igniting ballasts) so all in all im not happy with the measly amount of money i have saved.

like you said CG people who tinker in auto buy from harbor freight and people who do it for a living buy snap on (well put by the way).


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## collective gardener (Aug 28, 2011)

I figured it was time to take some before and after shots of my insane atomic pruning. I hate that we can't use the "basic uploader" here anymore. Then I could have captioned the pics. 

Anyways, you'll see 2 pics of a vegging plant. The first is before pruning, the second after. The 3 pics of a budding plant show the results of my pruning style. I took the closeups to show the bud quality way low on the plant. The blooming plant is at 6 weeks.

If you're shocked, I fully understand. When my buddy Commercial J told me he had perfected pruning the Pre 98 Bubba, I went to his grow op to have a look. The plants were 7 weeks into bloom and looked fantastic. This was at his "small" home grow and he was yielding 6lbs of Bubba under 4 lights in an 8x8 tray. Once these plants were finished and weighed, he used the technique on his commercial warehouse op. 

I wanted to try this on my grow. At the time I had a 12 light live soil organic op going. He explained to me what to do, but it sounded too radical. I asked him to come to my grow and show me on a couple plants. When my plants were about 2.5 weeks into bloom, he showed up with his own shears. He told me to trust him. He then proceeded to destroy 2 of my plants...or so I thought. I truly though he was playiung some kind of sick joke. What fucking idiot would remove THAT MUCH healthy foilage from a plant. He assured me it was exactly what he did to his. Even then, I didn't trust him enough to hack up the other 97 plants.

When I harvested, I weighed kept 10 un-pruned plants seperate to compare weight with the pruned plants. I made sure the plants I selected were of average size or a little bigger. When I trim I have 2 piles of buds: One pile is the AAA grade buds, and one is the smaller buds for personal stash, gifts, paying trimmers, keif, and edibles. The untrimmed plants averaged just under 2 ozs total...with 1.5 ozs of AAA and .5 ozs of low grade. The pruned plants averaged just OVER 2 ozs...every bit AAA grade. They were also way easier to trim and looked healthier. I wished I had let him go balistic on the whole crop. I would have had 3 more lbs of AAA weed.

Even after the proof, I had a hard time pruning _enough _leaves off the future crops. I would prune, and have Commercial J come over for a look. He would always say the same thing: "Take more"! Sure as shit, I would end up with an Lb of low grade. Everytime I would prune I was thinking "it's too much"...and everytime I would trim I would think "It wasn't enough. Several crops later, I finally developed the confidence to undertake the atomic prune.

One time, as if to prove that taking too much could be horrible, I over-pruned like a mother-fucker on one plant. I hacked that poor thing to shit. All I left were the bud sites, and the leaves that would one day be part of the buds. There was like nothing left. Well, it did affect the yield, but not that much. At that time I was growing smaller plants (and a buttload of them), that were averaging 1.25 ozs each. The over pruned plant came in at just over an ounce. But, when I though about it, that would have produced the same amount of AAA buds as an un-pruned plant. Since that little test, I haven't been afraid to go psycho-killer on the plants.

Here's the fine print. This technique works _for me_ in _my op_ with _my pheno_ of Pre-98 Bubba. I would not want anyone to just hack down a whole crop based on my results. I know most of you have _way_ too much growing savy to do that. When I'm growing the very low yielding and leggy OG's, I only remove a couple fan inside leaves. Sativa heavy strains hardly ever need any pruning. Which may be where the idea of "pruning is bad" came from. Those plants are sparce enough growing natural. In general, the bushier the plant, the better it seems to respond to pruning. You can also tell at trimming time. If you're ending up with a big ass pile of larf, some pruning may get the light down deep enough to turn that larf into high grade buds.

If I were to just remove a few leaves, I would remove the interior fan leaves in the upper third of the plant. The next level would be some lolipopping. The next would be large exterior fan leaves shading neighbor plants and preventing me from getting the plants close enough together. And then there's the atomic prune, as seen in the pic.

Goos luck to all of you in your growing endeavors. Send some positive energy to Hellraizer, who's having some stressful trouble in the grow room. We're thinking of you HR, and are all here to help if we can.


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## theexpress (Aug 28, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> i don't mean in anyway to drag out a negative conversation but just thought i would throw in my personal experience in the matter. i bought all six of my light kits from the hydro store and saw some light kits on ebay for like half the price with a digi ballast, so i bought a kit and i can say this thing is garbage plain and simple, the digi ballast runs hotter than my mag ballast i am literally in fear of my house burning down from this thing lol, its funny actually. anyway since buying so much from the hydro store they have given me a constant 10% off any purchase and 20% off any purchase over 1000 so im happy. also i have searched ebay quite often and anything name brand i have usually been able to get cheaper from my locals (and i do mean "NAME BRAND" not self igniting ballasts) so all in all im not happy with the measly amount of money i have saved.
> 
> like you said CG people who tinker in auto buy from harbor freight and people who do it for a living buy snap on (well put by the way).


lol i really dont beleave you about the digi running hotter then the much heavier noiesier magnetic.... some of those guys on ebay have warehouses full of shit and sell there shit to growshops.....


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## theexpress (Aug 28, 2011)

whats wrong with this light???? the hydro store would charge an extra 100 or more easy for this light, http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-WATT-HPS-DIGITAL-GROW-LIGHT-AIR-COOLED-HOOD-1000w-/300582800955?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fc218e3b


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 1759343View attachment 1759342View attachment 1759340View attachment 1759339View attachment 1759336
> 
> I figured it was time to take some before and after shots of my insane atomic pruning. I hate that we can't use the "basic uploader" here anymore. Then I could have captioned the pics.
> 
> ...


thanks CG I could use some positive right now


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## C.Indica (Aug 28, 2011)

theexpress said:


> whats wrong with this light???? the hydro store would charge an extra 100 or more easy for this light, http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-WATT-HPS-DIGITAL-GROW-LIGHT-AIR-COOLED-HOOD-1000w-/300582800955?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fc218e3b


Dude how many times does it have to be said?
Drop the fucking subject.
Who made that bulb?
What about the ballast? And the reflector?
Who even sells that shit?

Bottom line is you don't know.
And after all the connections CG makes, he saves more money and time wasted than you ever will with your shipping time and paperwork.




CG I loved that pruning post, it really gave me some ideas for the veggie garden.
As well as future grows.

If you look in the lower right corner of the picture, it has the caption in it.
Whatever you name the file on your computer, will show up when uploaded.

So you actually have been captioning them the whole time, and I've been reading them the whole time.
Hope that lowers your stress a degree or two.

CG, what's the most Sativa heavy strain you've ever run, and how much fun was it?
Oh and by the way, Congadulations on your spelling.


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## collective gardener (Aug 29, 2011)

theexpress said:


> whats wrong with this light???? the hydro store would charge an extra 100 or more easy for this light, http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-WATT-HPS-DIGITAL-GROW-LIGHT-AIR-COOLED-HOOD-1000w-/300582800955?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fc218e3b


No, the hydro store wouldn't. Because no hydro store would carry this POS. Check out the warranty on this bad boy:

*Returns*

Exchanges are offered for items that are defective or damaged when received, although this is highly unlikely. After exchanges are made and have not resolved the issue, we will refund the cost of the merchandise.
Defective items or problems with your order must be reported within 3 days after receiving. Please keep all packaging, documentation, packing list, etc. that came with your order. These will be used to verify claims if there is any problem with you.
Restocking fee will be charged for returned items without original package or any quality problem. Please * contact us * for details before returning your package to avoid misunderstanding.
IMPORTANT: Customer's item must be returned to our facility with the ROF (Return Order Form) at the buyers&#8217; shipping expense. 
I read that as a 3 day warranty.

Here's the Hydrofarm Phantom Ballast Warranty:
*Specifications*

Weight: 13.9 lbs. Package Dimensions: 14.5L x 9.8W x 3.8HMax. Wattage:1000Voltage:240Convertible:YesMax. Amperage:9.2Warranty:5 Year
*Related Items*

5 year warranty! That's right, baby. I'm in this for the long haul. 


So, what is wrong with the Ebay ballast? The 3 day warranty for start. Also note that you will be picking up the shipping charges should you have to return it. 


Ok. I think we've beat this horse to death. I think what we've learned is that cheap stuff is avaiable online. Personally, I'd like to get back to the growing. I will not be commenting anymore on this topic.


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## hellraizer30 (Aug 29, 2011)

Rofl"....... Too shay back to growing


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## collective gardener (Aug 29, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> Dude how many times does it have to be said?
> Drop the fucking subject.
> Who made that bulb?
> What about the ballast? And the reflector?
> ...


Thanks for the heads up on the captions. I'll name the pics with more detail in the future. I still miss the easy uploader function. It made it easy to get the pics right where you wanted them.

I have a 16 week un-named sativa. It was a strain Commercial J came across a few years back. If you bloom it at 6", it ends up about 5 feet tall 4 months later. I keep it alive and going in my "Strain Bank"...a tray in the veg room that I keep my favorite few strains going. I just take a couple clones about every 5 weeks and replace the mothers with those when they've rooted. They never get bigger than a foot tall and are kept alive under a small T-5. 

This sativa is crazy good. Had Steep Hill Labs test it and it came in at 21%THC. I grow a plant out once or twice a year for personal stash and gifts. Given that it takes 16 weeks to finish I tend to think it's 100% sativa. The last month I'll put it in the dark drying shack for 24 hrs at a time every few days to help it ripen. It's a real bitch to grow. But if you like the speedy sativa high, it's the one. The next time I bloom one I'm going to Bushmaster the living fuck out of the thing...see if I can't keep it under 4 feet. 

Sorry about the spelling. When I get worked up I start typing too fast. I try not to let a silly post get to me, but it happens. This thread has been so positive for so long. I'm serious when I say there has only been three negative posters. One guy made some comment about California being a fucked place, and I forgot the other. If you look at most threads this size, there's dozens of really nasty posts. Somehow this group has just been great. We've not added any fuel to the fire of the negative posters. I hope we can all keep it that way. 

On that note, thanks to all of you for making this thread a haven for positive energy. And thank you for taking the high road when things get wierd. We're all here to learn from eachother and get (and give) support. You're a great group of humans and I hope to treat all of you to a beer and a blunt one day.


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## C.Indica (Aug 29, 2011)

This is a long quote, so I'm just going to reply paragraph at a time.


collective gardener said:


> Thanks for the heads up on the captions. I'll name the pics with more detail in the future. I still miss the easy uploader function. It made it easy to get the pics right where you wanted them.
> No problem, I see a lot of funny fucking names on peoples pictures. I hate the scattered pictures too, I have two ways of getting around it;
> Either I upload first, and then type the whole post out,
> Or I type my post up, Copy+Cut it, upload the photos, and re-paste it.
> ...


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## davidgrimm (Aug 29, 2011)

CG

When you get a moment would you please post a link to the bulbs you used to use in bloom (before you got the digital ballasts). I replaced all my bulbs a few months ago with cheap ones from the internet (they are supposed to have 140,000 lumens) but I am not happy with them.

Thanks so much!


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## theexpress (Aug 29, 2011)

lol you guys are way too much.... yeah your bud wont grow has dank unless its a lumitek ballast... hahahahahahahahahahahaha.... digital ballast arent built to last forever anyway like the mag. ballast are... both have drawbacks.. and for the price the growshop wants you should not only get that kind of warrenty every light should come with a free blowjob too...


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## collective gardener (Aug 29, 2011)

theexpress said:


> lol you guys are way too much.... yeah your bud wont grow has dank unless its a lumitek ballast... hahahahahahahahahahahaha.... digital ballast arent built to last forever anyway like the mag. ballast are... both have drawbacks.. and for the price the growshop wants you should not only get that kind of warrenty every light should come with a free blowjob too...


 
Are you done?


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## collective gardener (Aug 29, 2011)

davidgrimm said:


> CG
> 
> When you get a moment would you please post a link to the bulbs you used to use in bloom (before you got the digital ballasts). I replaced all my bulbs a few months ago with cheap ones from the internet (they are supposed to have 140,000 lumens) but I am not happy with them.
> 
> Thanks so much!


 
I used the Hortilux Eye for a dozen years. They now have a new model comnpatable with digital ballasts: http://www.eyehortilux.com/

I currently use a Digilux: 

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=digilux+hps+bulb&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7TSNA_enUS391US392&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9299753166354749664&sa=X&ei=QKtbToSvCczUiAL1vuSbCQ&ved=0CFMQ8wIwAQ#

Here's a You Tube vid comparing the 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e_lEgacnH4

I hope this is what you were looking for.


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## drgreentm (Aug 29, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 1759343View attachment 1759342View attachment 1759340View attachment 1759339View attachment 1759336
> 
> I figured it was time to take some before and after shots of my insane atomic pruning. I hate that we can't use the "basic uploader" here anymore. Then I could have captioned the pics.
> 
> ...


great post CG, that sure is a atomic prune! i really want to try this on a couple of my bubba's do you think it is to late to do a few? they are about 4.5 weeks in flower now. is there any certain time you do the pruning? also do you do it in passes or just all at once? my bubbas look almost identical, mine are a bit shorter and fatter do to the super cropping im sure but those look great! i take every bit of foliage from the centers but the outside leaves get pretty large and do shade neighboring plants, this seems like a good solution. if i could fit 4 in a 3x3 area with a 600 over each 4 (or 3x3 area) without having to sacrifice veg time that would be great and thank you for any insight on your technique.


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## TheLastWood (Aug 29, 2011)

Gardener was explaining how the bulb brand related to his yield, not to the quality of his buds.

In ur avy is that a cig your smoking or a joint?


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## mellokitty (Aug 29, 2011)

those of us who've been enjoying a "cost + small percentage" -type discount on our gear for years, tend to sort of scoff at the notions of both a) having our gear pass through potential hundreds of anonymous hands before arriving, without precaution, at our grow and/or safe address; and b) using our purchasing power to benefit folks we've never met over the people we've built personal and working relationships with over the years. 
don't hold it against us, we are only human after all.

although -- i _would_ be curious to know what the going online rate on shipping and handling for a plug-and-play 5t a/c unit would be. just for shits and giggles. 

.... not to mention, cg, how's that lawyer of yours working out for you? can you send me a link to his ebay ad? .... [/tongueincheek] 

also, could you please get out of my head, you magnificent bastard? tha~nx.


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## theexpress (Aug 29, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> those of us who've been enjoying a "cost + small percentage" -type discount on our gear for years, tend to sort of scoff at the notions of both a) having our gear pass through potential hundreds of anonymous hands before arriving, without precaution, at our grow and/or safe address; and b) using our purchasing power to benefit folks we've never met over the people we've built personal and working relationships with over the years.
> don't hold it against us, we are only human after all.
> 
> although -- i _would_ be curious to know what the going online rate on shipping and handling for a plug-and-play 5t a/c unit would be. just for shits and giggles.
> ...


lol i dont know why everybody is getting cute with me...... the fact still remains the equipment could be had for way less..... that 5 ton unit goes for 1,495 with shipping of 185 bux.... brand fucking new.......


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## collective gardener (Aug 29, 2011)

theexpress said:


> lol i dont know why everybody is getting cute with me...... the fact still remains the equipment could be had for way less..... that 5 ton unit goes for 1,495 with shipping of 185 bux.... brand fucking new.......


 
Once again...are you done?


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## theexpress (Aug 29, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Once again...are you done?


yeah... i just needed to get my point out there...... and for the record ive never insulted you and dont know why you would say that... happy growing


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## collective gardener (Aug 29, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> great post CG, that sure is a atomic prune! i really want to try this on a couple of my bubba's do you think it is to late to do a few? they are about 4.5 weeks in flower now. is there any certain time you do the pruning? also do you do it in passes or just all at once? my bubbas look almost identical, mine are a bit shorter and fatter do to the super cropping im sure but those look great! i take every bit of foliage from the centers but the outside leaves get pretty large and do shade neighboring plants, this seems like a good solution. if i could fit 4 in a 3x3 area with a 600 over each 4 (or 3x3 area) without having to sacrifice veg time that would be great and thank you for any insight on your technique.


I prune about 2.5 weeks into bloom. (see above). It's strain dependant. Basically, I go at em when the stretch is over. This way I know I'm looking at the basic framework of how the plant will look for the rest of its short life. I do the pruning all at once. I may pinch a leaf or 2 in veg and early bloom...just huge interior leaves shading bud sites. But the atomic prune happens in one shot. 

You'll probably do well to prune exterior leaves IF it allows you to get more plants in the same area. That's the only reason I prune the exterior leaves. If I've taken too few clones and have a very uncrowded tray, I'll leave the exterior leaves on. But, this rarely happens. I take so many clones so often that I always have 50 ready to go. I used to do this great timing thing...and I will again. But for now we grow using the brute force method: Take 60 cuts once per week...throw away any that you don't need.


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## collective gardener (Aug 29, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> those of us who've been enjoying a "cost + small percentage" -type discount on our gear for years, tend to sort of scoff at the notions of both a) having our gear pass through potential hundreds of anonymous hands before arriving, without precaution, at our grow and/or safe address; and b) using our purchasing power to benefit folks we've never met over the people we've built personal and working relationships with over the years.
> don't hold it against us, we are only human after all.
> 
> although -- i _would_ be curious to know what the going online rate on shipping and handling for a plug-and-play 5t a/c unit would be. just for shits and giggles.
> ...


 
Always great to hear from you, Kitty....you crazy kid. Love the E-Bay Lawyer joke...bout pissed myself laughing.


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## Wolverine97 (Aug 29, 2011)

I'll just chime in here to say that I don't think Chitown (theexpress) meant to offend you CG, it's just his way. He is good people, I followed one of his threads for quite a while before someone came in and got it deleted. I mean, I can see how you took it that way for sure given this threads' history and the way you've very carefully laid everything out for everyone to see. Anyway... how goes it everyone? What's up Chitown?


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## theexpress (Aug 29, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I'll just chime in here to say that I don't think Chitown (theexpress) meant to offend you CG, it's just his way. He is good people, I followed one of his threads for quite a while before someone came in and got it deleted. I mean, I can see how you took it that way for sure given this threads' history and the way you've very carefully laid everything out for everyone to see. Anyway... how goes it everyone? What's up Chitown?


not much just enjoying the op's amazing grow!!!!!!!!


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## drgreentm (Aug 29, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I prune about 2.5 weeks into bloom. (see above). It's strain dependant. Basically, I go at em when the stretch is over. This way I know I'm looking at the basic framework of how the plant will look for the rest of its short life. I do the pruning all at once. I may pinch a leaf or 2 in veg and early bloom...just huge interior leaves shading bud sites. But the atomic prune happens in one shot.
> 
> You'll probably do well to prune exterior leaves IF it allows you to get more plants in the same area. That's the only reason I prune the exterior leaves. If I've taken too few clones and have a very uncrowded tray, I'll leave the exterior leaves on. But, this rarely happens. I take so many clones so often that I always have 50 ready to go. I used to do this great timing thing...and I will again. But for now we grow using the brute force method: Take 60 cuts once per week...throw away any that you don't need.


 well i decided to just go ahead and give this method a run so i went in after posting and just did it, not sure if i did it right just tried to get as many of the large fan leaves from all the main heads and imo they really dont look bad at all. i doubt the outcome will have a negative impact on anything because they where so crowded anyway. 
anyway thanks again for the info.


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## collective gardener (Aug 29, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> well i decided to just go ahead and give this method a run so i went in after posting and just did it, not sure if i did it right just tried to get as many of the large fan leaves from all the main heads and imo they really dont look bad at all. i doubt the outcome will have a negative impact on anything because they where so crowded anyway.
> anyway thanks again for the info.


 
I'm sure they'll be fine. Hope you enjoy the outcome. The later in bloom the less potential negative effect pruning has...also the less time light can cook on the lower buds...which is the downside of pruning too late. But, nothing bad will happen. Typicall, pruning at 4 weeks helps ripen the lower buds, but they'll still be small. Pruning at 2 weeks actually helps the lower budes develope into larger nugs.


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## drgreentm (Aug 29, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I'm sure they'll be fine. Hope you enjoy the outcome. The later in bloom the less potential negative effect pruning has...also the less time light can cook on the lower buds...which is the downside of pruning too late. But, nothing bad will happen. Typicall, pruning at 4 weeks helps ripen the lower buds, but they'll still be small. Pruning at 2 weeks actually helps the lower budes develope into larger nugs.


 cool CG, next go around i will hit them right after the stretch stops, thanks for taking the time man.


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## collective gardener (Aug 29, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Ok, now since you're on that topic:
> This brings up an issue that I've questioned my attorney about, and he says I can't pay taxes like that. The reason being; it's federally illegal. He tells me that I can't pay federal taxes on an illegal activity... how do you claim the income? Is it just "consulting"? Just curious.


 
Wolverine,

Sorry I took so long to address this...I was sidetracked.

Wow. It scares me when 2 attorneys give 2 totally different opinions. My attorney advised us to 1099 all working members to avoid any potential tax evasion issues. Bottomline is we are keeping paperwork as normal business would. Some of that paperwork documents hourly pay for the working members of the collective. To stay compliant with State law, we have to spend every dime we bring in on growing costs...be they electricity, nutes, rent, loan payments, and/or...the big one...labor. Documenting income and not paying taxes on it is big time no no. On an IRS 1099 form there's no place you need to specify what the payment is for beyond "non-employee compensation". It's the same when a general contractor hires a sub-contractor. At the end of the year the general sends the sub (and the IRS) a 1099 stating how much money the general paid the sub. The general can then write off this income as a business expense, and the sub pays the taxes on that income. 

The IRS does not know or care what the money was for...as long as they get their pound of flesh. Taking money from the collective and not paying taxes on it is a clear case of tax evasion. Just ask Al Capone. I trust my attorney without hesitation. He's a cannabis business attorney, representing dozens of dispensaries and god knows how many growing "Collective Associations" like us. His partner is a cannabis criminal defense lawyer. This is all these guys do. Every month we meet and build our defense. Yes...build our defense. The idea is that our paperwork is so good, in the event of the unthinkable (here come's LEO!), the DA will reject the case as unwinnable. But if that paperwork showed that X amount of growing members were paid Y amount of money, and there were no 1099's sent and no State or Federal taxes paid, there would be a clear cut case of tax evasion. Now, what would have been dealt with on the state level could be referred to the Feds. The tax evasion charges would be a dead lock win for the Feds. And, if they wanted to get nasty, they could pick up the cultivation charges. We have no medical marijuana defense in a federal case. The words "medical marijuana" cannot even be said in federal court. 

If you're going to be a pot grower in a state with medical marijuana laws, you have a choice to make. Either be above board 100%, or go underground 100%. Setting up a Collective Association, and attempting to comply with state laws, only to evade taxes is like trying to have it both ways. I had been underground for 20+ years before setting up this grow. I'd like to think that everything we do is above board. You can bet your ass that the vast majority of dispensaries are paying their taxes. You really should get a second legal opinion. I'd be happy to refer you to our attorney via a PM. The first consultation is $500 for 2 hrs...after that he's $300/hr. In 2 hrs he can answer all of your questions and give you some valuable direction on how to protect yourself and your grow op. If you don't intend to be 100% compliant, I would recommend just going underground. 

Now the one vague tax issue is sales tax. There is a real legal conflict here. Since we're a collection of patients pooling our resources to grow, we legally should not have to pay sales tax. It would be like if I like the way you baked cookies. I go out and buy all of the ingredients for you, and pay you $20/hr for 2 hrs to bake some cookies for me. Should you charge me sales tax? Logically (and technically legally) NO. But, the state would like to see it a little differently. Our attorney has advised us to get a resale license and put 9.25% of our total sales into an interest bearing account. We then claim zero taxable sales each year. If, and only if, the state comes to us and demands their sales tax, we pay it with a letter of protest from our attorney. If they don't come to us, we continue to deposit the money year after year. When we finally close the collective, the funds are divided up amoung the collective members proportional to their purchases throughout the life of the collective. Big pain in the ass, but we do it to stay as compliant as we possibly can.

There's another more subtle reason to pay taxes. If, god forbid, we ever find ourselves in a jury trial, those jury members probably pay taxes on their income. They are not going to look favorably on you if you don't pay taxes. Furthermore, paying taxes shows the jury that you truly were trying to do everything by the book. They probably wouldn't like the fact that the goverment will take your tax payment, and then try to put you in prison for the work you did to generate the taxable income. The DA knows this too. And the real goal to all this paperwork is to show the DA that you're going to make this case an uphill battle for him at every fucking turn. The DA cannot prosecute every case. With the economy tanking, they are having to drop even more. By showing the DA that you've totally covered your ass, you increase your chances that your case will be thrown out. 

All that shit being said, Wolverine, I am not a lawyer. Please do not make ANY choices about how you protect yourself based on_ anything_ I've said (except to speak to another lawyer). It would devastate me to hear that you, or anyone here, got into a legal problem for growing. The risk factor is going down. But, there are still some landmines out there. Please be very careful, brother. We want you around for a long long time.

On another note, were you growing Casey Jones a while back?


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## Wolverine97 (Aug 30, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Wolverine,
> 
> Sorry I took so long to address this...I was sidetracked.
> 
> ...


Excellent reply, as per usual. I love the dedication to detail CG. Last question first; yessir I've been running Casey Jones for a couple of years now and I still love it just as much as I did after the first harvest. It's my heaviest yielder by far, averaging between 6-8 oz/plant with 5 weeks veg under T5's. It takes a decent amount of training to get it to yield that well, but it's time well spent. I highly recommend it, since I started running CJ it has become probably the most popular strain in my area (makes me wish I wasn't so generous with the clones at first). If you have any questions about it, I have intimate knowledge of her likes/dislikes. Always happy to help. Also, I made some S1 seeds this last time around but we'll just have to see how they grow, I'm afraid it will lock in that damned hermie gene (it's there from the Thai and SD). 

As to the legal/tax issues; My attorney isn't a MMJ specialist, he's just my regular attorney I keep on retainer. It shouldn't be a major issue for me at the moment, at least as things stand right now. I'm currently just a caregiver, but I've been talking with a few friends and one of the local clubs about trying to set up a collective. The tax issue was brought up by my attorney when I ran everything by him. I'm in Michigan, and our laws are very different from CA. Our legislature is currently trying to take away most of the rights that were granted to us three years ago, so a lot of us are trying to get our heads' around how we can make this thing work. I appreciate the thoughtful response, and if we decide to take things further I may take you up on the attorney referral. I don't want to further derail the thread, so I'll leave it at that. 

Keep up the good work.


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## collective gardener (Aug 30, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Excellent reply, as per usual. I love the dedication to detail CG. Last question first; yessir I've been running Casey Jones for a couple of years now and I still love it just as much as I did after the first harvest. It's my heaviest yielder by far, averaging between 6-8 oz/plant with 5 weeks veg under T5's. It takes a decent amount of training to get it to yield that well, but it's time well spent. I highly recommend it, since I started running CJ it has become probably the most popular strain in my area (makes me wish I wasn't so generous with the clones at first). If you have any questions about it, I have intimate knowledge of her likes/dislikes. Always happy to help. Also, I made some S1 seeds this last time around but we'll just have to see how they grow, I'm afraid it will lock in that damned hermie gene (it's there from the Thai and SD).
> 
> As to the legal/tax issues; My attorney isn't a MMJ specialist, he's just my regular attorney I keep on retainer. It shouldn't be a major issue for me at the moment, at least as things stand right now. I'm currently just a caregiver, but I've been talking with a few friends and one of the local clubs about trying to set up a collective. The tax issue was brought up by my attorney when I ran everything by him. I'm in Michigan, and our laws are very different from CA. Our legislature is currently trying to take away most of the rights that were granted to us three years ago, so a lot of us are trying to get our heads' around how we can make this thing work. I appreciate the thoughtful response, and if we decide to take things further I may take you up on the attorney referral. I don't want to further derail the thread, so I'll leave it at that.
> 
> Keep up the good work.


I ask about the Casey Jones because in 2 weeks I'm expanding the bloom room from 200 sq ft of canopy to 280 sq ft of canopy. I'm considering growing around 32 sq ft of a lower quality, higher yielding strain. I know Casey won't be as good as our Bubba, I'm just wondering how much of a quality drop there will be. Where does the CJ stand against your other strains quality wise? What would it yield under 2 - 1000 watt lights in a 4x8 tray? I'm really playing with fire considering trying a new strain that I know will not be as good as the OG's and Bubbas. Could you please give me some idea of how you rate thequality against the other strains that you grow. They're just SOOOOOOO picky in the dispensaries out here. Thanks.


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## Wolverine97 (Aug 30, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I ask about the Casey Jones because in 2 weeks I'm expanding the bloom room from 200 sq ft of canopy to 280 sq ft of canopy. I'm considering growing around 32 sq ft of a lower quality, higher yielding strain. I know Casey won't be as good as our Bubba, I'm just wondering how much of a quality drop there will be. Where does the CJ stand against your other strains quality wise? What would it yield under 2 - 1000 watt lights in a 4x8 tray? I'm really playing with fire considering trying a new strain that I know will not be as good as the OG's and Bubbas. Could you please give me some idea of how you rate thequality against the other strains that you grow. They're just SOOOOOOO picky in the dispensaries out here. Thanks.


Well I recently had mine tested and it came back at 18.7% thc, .48 cbd. Honestly, I don't see why it would be risky at all. It yields heavy as hell, and at least around here people love it. Rave about it actually, always somebody asking for it. I've been running it for two years now and it's still my go to daytime smoke (the buzz lasts about 1-1/2 hrs). It has a very nice heady high that comes on immediately, and the taste is out of this world good. I don't think you can go wrong with a good pheno, but you really have to keep nutrient levels pretty high from weeks 3-8 of flowering or she'll fade way too soon.

My setup is a lot different than yours, I run individual flowering rooms. When I run just CJ, I average over 1.25 gpw with a five week veg (about 24-30" tall going into bud room). You'll need to support the branches, as they do stretch a ton and by late flowering they're falling all over each other. The stretch is something that really has to be accounted for with this girl in particular, as she just about triples in height from 12/12. I run them in five gallon Smart Pots with living organic soil, so with you running hydro I would think you could probably yield a little bit more than I do once you get the bugs worked out. Watch for nanners, she's known for throwing a few once it nears the end of flowering.

Overall I highly recommend this strain. Let me know if I can help.

edit: just read my reply, and I didn't really address the comparison to my other strains. My most potent overall is a local hybrid called DT (which I also love), it's great stuff but the one that everyone comes back for is the CJ. My local hydro shop guy runs nothing but OG, I gave him a sample bag of the DT to try out one day thinking he'd just love it and all that, next time I saw him he just said "eh, it's good but I still like my OG". I had him come out back with me and I lit a joint of the CJ which he only hit 2-3 times, the next time I saw him he said "got anymore of that Casey Jones? _That_ shit fucked me up, man". 

I guess what I'm trying to say is go for it, you won't be disappointed (as long as you grow it at least a few times to work out the kinks, it can be finicky).


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## koolshades (Aug 30, 2011)

I'm curious what MH Bulb you are currently using now for veg. I think i read somewhere you were using 5 x 1000 watt Pulse starts in a 6.4k color. Is that correct?


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## collective gardener (Aug 30, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Well I recently had mine tested and it came back at 18.7% thc, .48 cbd. Honestly, I don't see why it would be risky at all. It yields heavy as hell, and at least around here people love it. Rave about it actually, always somebody asking for it. I've been running it for two years now and it's still my go to daytime smoke (the buzz lasts about 1-1/2 hrs). It has a very nice heady high that comes on immediately, and the taste is out of this world good. I don't think you can go wrong with a good pheno, but you really have to keep nutrient levels pretty high from weeks 3-8 of flowering or she'll fade way too soon.
> 
> My setup is a lot different than yours, I run individual flowering rooms. When I run just CJ, I average over 1.25 gpw with a five week veg (about 24-30" tall going into bud room). You'll need to support the branches, as they do stretch a ton and by late flowering they're falling all over each other. The stretch is something that really has to be accounted for with this girl in particular, as she just about triples in height from 12/12. I run them in five gallon Smart Pots with living organic soil, so with you running hydro I would think you could probably yield a little bit more than I do once you get the bugs worked out. Watch for nanners, she's known for throwing a few once it nears the end of flowering.
> 
> ...


Wolverine,

Thank you so very much, my man. That is exactly the info I needed. The reason it's risky for me to try new strains is that everytime I do, my market will purchase a couple lbs just because I grew it, and then ask for more Bubba. I've created a monster. The folks I deal with know me as "the grower with that killer Pre-98 Bubba". The Lavander x Afgahni x Purple Kush I grew was accepted quite well at first. In fact, it commanded a better price than the Bubba. But, just about the time I commited half my bloom area to it, my orders for it dwindled and my Bubba orders went up. 

The Casey Jones is a different animal, though. Based on your yields, I could substantially reduce the price and still come out better than the Bubba. This time, though, I'll go in slow. It will take me several months to get the right pheno. There is one clone source I know that has one. If I'm lucky, it's good. Otherwise, I'll order 50 seeds and start the selection process. Once I have my mother, I'll probably just start out with one tray of it for a while (3x3). This way I can keep feeding the Bubba monster. 

The timing is good because I am remodeling/expanding the bloom room. I'm removing the existing trays in the bloom room and building one giant sloping table. That table will be 8x24 and lit by 12 - 1000 watt lights. Then I have room for 4 - 3x3 tables, each lit by a 600 watt light. My current lit area is 192 sq ft. The remodel will put me at 236. I was shooting for 280, but there just wouldn't be enough room to walk around and service the crop. The new layout enables me to increase my Bubba blooming area from 192 sq ft to 200 sq ft, and use the 4 - 3x3 trays under the 600's for testing and/or production of different strains. 

So, one or 2 of those trays has Casey Jones written on it. It was your pictures and yield numbers that got me thinking of the Casey Jones. I know you told me this once, but how many plants do u grow per sq ft? 24" into bloom and a heavy stretch. Seems like it would finish quite tall. Can you send me some pics of it? I'm going to go pick up a dozen clones of it this weekend. I don't have high hopes, as most every clone I've ever bought for $10 - $20 has been dissapointing. I spent a few grand on 5 clones once, though, and felt like it was a great deal....and it was! LOL. Thanks for all your help. Come out to my neck of the woods sometime and tour the grow.


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## Wolverine97 (Aug 30, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Wolverine,
> 
> Thank you so very much, my man. That is exactly the info I needed. The reason it's risky for me to try new strains is that everytime I do, my market will purchase a couple lbs just because I grew it, and then ask for more Bubba. I've created a monster. The folks I deal with know me as "the grower with that killer Pre-98 Bubba". The Lavander x Afgahni x Purple Kush I grew was accepted quite well at first. In fact, it commanded a better price than the Bubba. But, just about the time I commited half my bloom area to it, my orders for it dwindled and my Bubba orders went up.
> 
> ...


I hope the clones you get are a good pheno, because seeds are damn near impossible to find nowadays. Head has been on hiatus for a while, nobody seems to know when he'll drop some more. You can find some f2's on the auction sites, but that's why I made my s1's to have a backup in case shit happens. I do see the occasional pack come up for sale, but you always have to be "invited" to the auction. 

I run about one plant per 1.5 sqft, and halfway through flower they're falling all over each other. It's a great SCROG strain because it doesn't produce a ton of foliage but it's branchy as hell. I prune and supercrop to between 12-16 cola's per plant and lollipop the bottom 18-24" a couple weeks into flower. I also selectively snip branches that I don't think will produce well or that are too crowded. It actually doesn't need a ton of light to do well either, which is nice. Sometimes the buds on the perimeter of the room are higher quality than those directly under the lamp. 

Good luck with it all. Let me know if you don't have success acquiring what you're after...


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## TheLastWood (Aug 30, 2011)

Gardener I know your not into seeds and there's probly no reason you can't find any casey jones, but if you can't connoseur genetics has casey jones s1s from the original Head Seads who created casey and has a badass trainwreck also. I don't know if head even sells anymore I've never seen them in stock. But you can get them at attitude and I wouldn't be surprised if a dispensary there sold connoseur genetics. 

What are you gonna grow sativa in ur new space?

Are you ever gonna start breeding? You know the bubba well enough now. It would be a killer cut to work with. And then you could get your laughgani back and try n get rid of the insane dense foliage somehow. Cross it with a sativa. Would be good projects for you and then you could do a laughgani bx and ill test em for you lol.

I know you said you've always wanted to someday but didn't have room. All you really need to do is come up with a clever way to safely contain a male. I'm sure you could think of somethin.


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## collective gardener (Aug 30, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Gardener I know your not into seeds and there's probly no reason you can't find any casey jones, but if you can't connoseur genetics has casey jones s1s from the original Head Seads who created casey and has a badass trainwreck also. I don't know if head even sells anymore I've never seen them in stock. But you can get them at attitude and I wouldn't be surprised if a dispensary there sold connoseur genetics.
> 
> What are you gonna grow sativa in ur new space?
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the heads up on the CJ. I'll give this cut a try first. I do so much detest dealing with highgrading seed plants.

The breeding thing holds some interest. For the next couple years, though, I'm just concentrating on getting this op uber-efficient.


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## C.Indica (Aug 30, 2011)

Run Jack the Ripper
I believe it's about 21% THC, and 26% Total.


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## Jozikins (Aug 31, 2011)

Was this the thread that everyone wanted to know the results of using a bare MH to finish flowering in the final week? Because if so I have some results, although they are complete crap scientifically. I had no control subject and have not grown this strain before.


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## Wolverine97 (Aug 31, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> Was this the thread that everyone wanted to know the results of using a bare MH to finish flowering in the final week? Because if so I have some results, although they are complete crap scientifically. I had no control subject and have not grown this strain before.


Well then, by all means...


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## lostNug (Aug 31, 2011)

Didn't read whole thread but is he correct? Was this all grown with mh?

Cuz im doing the same thing for the first time. Have always used hps to flower but now got a cmh that im experimenting with.


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## rzza (Aug 31, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> Was this the thread that everyone wanted to know the results of using a bare MH to finish flowering in the final week? Because if so I have some results, although they are complete crap scientifically. I had no control subject and have not grown this strain before.


i wanna hear.


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## Wolverine97 (Aug 31, 2011)

lostNug said:


> Didn't read whole thread but is he correct? Was this all grown with mh?
> 
> Cuz im doing the same thing for the first time. Have always used hps to flower but now got a cmh that im experimenting with.


No........


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## Puanatat (Aug 31, 2011)

Hit this last page today after quite some time. First off, I'd just like to thank you CG and all the other contributors to this thread. I'm from australia and have (this year in particular) ended up on public transport for 3-4 hrs per day (to and from uni). I always found myself falling asleep and getting pretty down about doing this 'mission' day after day. This thread has kept me captivated and made most of my days pleasant ones, for a few months. The funny thing is; I can't read my text books without getting motion sickness but I can read this thread on my phone no worries haha... Go figure.*

A few things have got me riled *up as I've progressed through this thread, mostly just the nerve of some people - you've (CG) given so much and it should be quite clear to people that you know what you are doing. The manner in which a few members have talked to you is appalling but yet sometimes, more often than not, there is something to take away from it and I'm not going to lie; it usually makes for good reading ha.

On a positive note, there's been lots of highlights for me. One I can't help but think about is when you unleashed helper Ds' personality and habits on the readers. I remember reading one members post about how helper D doesn't think it's gay if he's on-top and they replied; does he do the reach around or is he just a prick - I seriously split my bottom lip with a smile from ear to ear on my tram, god damn those dry mornings haha!!

I'll just finish up with a question if it's alright by you. I remember you mentioning, on more than one occasion, how you've found that most mediums/nutrients lack, *I think was, magnesium and sulfur. Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought I journaled the posts but they didn't follow through to my account, I don't know why. Anyway, I was just wondering if you could shed some light on this and how being deficient in these nutrients affects your plants. I haven't really come across any posts or articles, in my short time in the game, that mention this. I believe you, I was just wondering *- given my soil composition below (feel free to shed light on whether I've gone wrong somewhere) , how should I go about ensuring my soil has these nutrients in the right amounts?

(Parts in Volume not Mass)
-4 Parts Organic Garden Soil*
-1 Part Vermiculite
-1 Part Perlite
-0.125 Parts Tuscan Path
-0.125 Parts Volcanic Rock (not mixed, but placed at the bottom of the pot).

If your curious about this mix, I'm just slowly working my way through mediums and grow types. My last two grows were quite simple and contained a mix of potting soil, sand, rocks, a bit of mushroom compost, etc.*

Thanks in advance.


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## MrEDuck (Aug 31, 2011)

I can't believe I missed this thread coming back. Glad to have you back CG. Insert a bunch of compliments about your grow in your head as you read this. I'm using my phone so I can't write em all out.
I can't believe you guys are still having problems giving meds away. Have you tried any outreach type groups? If anyone in the collective has ever worked as a social worker or something similar they may have some ideas.
I've gained like 12lbs since harvest.
Lots of great discussion everyone.


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## kevin murphy (Sep 1, 2011)

mornin c.g. hows things mate still producing the fat buds mate...


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## collective gardener (Sep 1, 2011)

Puanatat said:


> Hit this last page today after quite some time. First off, I'd just like to thank you CG and all the other contributors to this thread. I'm from australia and have (this year in particular) ended up on public transport for 3-4 hrs per day (to and from uni). I always found myself falling asleep and getting pretty down about doing this 'mission' day after day. This thread has kept me captivated and made most of my days pleasant ones, for a few months. The funny thing is; I can't read my text books without getting motion sickness but I can read this thread on my phone no worries haha... Go figure.*
> 
> A few things have got me riled *up as I've progressed through this thread, mostly just the nerve of some people - you've (CG) given so much and it should be quite clear to people that you know what you are doing. The manner in which a few members have talked to you is appalling but yet sometimes, more often than not, there is something to take away from it and I'm not going to lie; it usually makes for good reading ha.
> 
> ...


Welcome. Now we have Australia represented. A couple Asians (from Asia), and a Russian and we'll be fairly whole. 

I came across some tissue sample results years ago and saw sulfur content far exceeding (by proportion) the typical sulfur content in most hydro nutes. I then delved into my favorite hydroponic book "Hydroponic Vegetable Production" (a MUST for any hydro grower...THE textbook for college level hydro classes). It stated that sulfur problems typically started with slowed growth with no outward signs (leaf discoloration, necrosis, etc...). I took this to mean that you could be low on sulfur and never know it. At this point in my growing life there were like 2 hydro stores in the whole Los Angeles area. Foothill Hydroponics was my store. They made their own nutes and carried everything to make your own as well. I started adding magnesium sulfate and my growth exploded. Also, my plants stopped turning purple late in life (low mag...I thought I just had some kill purple shit). If you check the lables on Botanicare Sweet, AN Bud Factor X, Cutting Edge Mag Amp, and several other nute additives, you'll see that the ingredient is magnesium sulfate. 

In time I found out why these 2 elements may be lacking in some growing techniques. Organic matter is _loaded_ with sulfur. There's probably enough sulfur in a pot of FF Ocean Forest or Roots Organis potting soil for the life of the plant. In fact, just about any potting soil probably has plenty. Therefore, it wasn't something early fertilizer makers worried about. But, when we go inert medium, we have none. Since slow growth is the main sign of a problem (if there's a serious sulfur def, other signs appear), people may not even know that there's a problem. Most older basic hydro nutes weren't made for CO2 pumped, massively lighted, turbo charged pot plants. Hence, the additives. To this day, the only additive I use all the time is magnesium sulfate...currently Cutting edge Mag Amp.

Magnesium is present in large quantities in tap water. Back in the day, very few growers used RO units. Now, they're the standard. I have been using them for most of my growing career. 20 years ago they were so expensive that I leased mine! It was like $50/month and a company came out and serviced it every few months. Anyways, the old school nutes counted on the mag present in tap water. Now that we use RO water, extra mag is needed. If the hydro companies put too much in the basic nute, and the grower used tap water, there would be mad toxic problems. Hence, the "mag" in the magnesium sulfate additives. 

I confirmed all this in an in depth conversation with a rep from Cutting Edge (my current nute of choice). I was asking him how necessary their 3 additives were. He said 2 were optional, but the Mag Amp (magnesium sulfate) should be used always. Hopefully the nute companies will reformulate their basic nutes with enough mag and sulfur in the future. However, don't hold your breath...they make alot of money on additives. Many people think the additives are some magic voodoo. In fact, they're just giving is the rest of the mag and sulfur that should have been in the base nutes. Since low sulfur problems just cause slowed growth, it appears that the base nute has everything in it (if it caused leaves to die, people would never buy the base nute). Low mag usually doesn't show itself until late in bloom. I used to just think it was the plant winding down, or some sort of purple strain. The point is, the base nute works just good enough to make us think it's got everything. But, then we put in the additive and are convinced that the "secret sauce" is some magic growth booster. Here's the kicker: A gallon of one of Cutting Edge's base nutes (either Micro, Bloom, or Grow) is about $25. A gallon of Mag Amp (the rest of the magnesium and Sulfur) is over $100!

Is it a conspiracy? Am I just paranoid? Who knows...and who really cares. When I add magnesium sulfate my plants grow WAY faster and stay green and perfect right up until the flush starts yellowing them. If you want to give some a try, the Botanicare Sweet Raw is the cheapest.


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## collective gardener (Sep 1, 2011)

kevin murphy said:


> mornin c.g. hows things mate still producing the fat buds mate...


Yup. We're flushing table one. Going to start harvesting Friday


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## kevin murphy (Sep 1, 2011)

nice cant wait for the picture upfdate whens the next one cumin pal...


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## collective gardener (Sep 1, 2011)

MrEDuck said:


> I can't believe I missed this thread coming back. Glad to have you back CG. Insert a bunch of compliments about your grow in your head as you read this. I'm using my phone so I can't write em all out.
> I can't believe you guys are still having problems giving meds away. Have you tried any outreach type groups? If anyone in the collective has ever worked as a social worker or something similar they may have some ideas.
> I've gained like 12lbs since harvest.
> Lots of great discussion everyone.


 
I've questioned the whole group. I'm blown away that I can't locate people who really need some free meds. I've gotten some PM's from some real Fuck-Heads claiming that if I give them an LB, they can get it into the right hands. One guy even built a fake website he linked to me...saying they were some sort of hospice free weed delivery company. I wish I would have saved the link. It was so obvious he just built it to convince me he was legit. He used my exact wording for the type of people I was looking for. What an ass-clown.

All our members are still willing to share our harvest with some seriously ill and/or terminal patients without the means to pay for it. We have found a couple people we help out. One lady didn't want any "charity" (even though she has no money and is dying). Instead, she asked me to teach her to grow. We potted up some plants and delivered them to her backyard. She waters them and one of us goes by and feeds/prunes. We then "loan" her finished buds until her crop comes in. This is the only way she would accept help. The crazy thing is, she's going to have about 6 lbs of Bubba at the end of the summer. LOL. She wants us to harvest and trim her 6 plants for her. She then insists that we keep 5 plants worth of buds and store the buds from the other plant for her...just bringing her 1/2 ounce every 2 weeks. Here we are trying to be charitable, and we end up with around 5 extra pounds of buds! Needless to say, if our grow room shuts down tomorrow, we'll continue to supply her with whatever weed she needs for the rest of her life...which we hope will be a very long time.

If anyone has any leads on needy people, please let me know


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## Jozikins (Sep 1, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I've questioned the whole group. I'm blown away that I can't locate people who really need some free meds. I've gotten some PM's from some real Fuck-Heads claiming that if I give them an LB, they can get it into the right hands. One guy even built a fake website he linked to me...saying they were some sort of hospice free weed delivery company. I wish I would have saved the link. It was so obvious he just built it to convince me he was legit. He used my exact wording for the type of people I was looking for. What an ass-clown.
> 
> All our members are still willing to share our harvest with some seriously ill and/or terminal patients without the means to pay for it. We have found a couple people we help out. One lady didn't want any "charity" (even though she has no money and is dying). Instead, she asked me to teach her to grow. We potted up some plants and delivered them to her backyard. She waters them and one of us goes by and feeds/prunes. We then "loan" her finished buds until her crop comes in. This is the only way she would accept help. The crazy thing is, she's going to have about 6 lbs of Bubba at the end of the summer. LOL. She wants us to harvest and trim her 6 plants for her. She then insists that we keep 5 plants worth of buds and store the buds from the other plant for her...just bringing her 1/2 ounce every 2 weeks. Here we are trying to be charitable, and we end up with around 5 extra pounds of buds! Needless to say, if our grow room shuts down tomorrow, we'll continue to supply her with whatever weed she needs for the rest of her life...which we hope will be a very long time.
> 
> If anyone has any leads on needy people, please let me know


Do you guys have a store front? Or are you just trying to get rid of more because you have too much at your store front? Charity obviously the key motivation, but I just want to know how to work my idea. But if you already have a store front, a partnership with another store front may become beneficial for both you and the patients. There are lots of small dispensaries starting out that have a very hard time competing with some of the insane operations that are around, and the big green houses up north, and all the other stuff that gives other dispensaries the edge. What you could do is work a trusting relationship and donate your portion of charitable cannabis to their store front, so they can advertise and dispense free medicine for the terminally ill. This not only attracts everyone's attention as a compassionate act, and win's their business, even if they are not terminally ill, but it also sounds damn good in court. You can work out a symbiotic relationship with other legitimate dispensaries in the area. It's almost like a bonus for playing by the rules, even if it makes business tough.


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## Jozikins (Sep 1, 2011)

rzza said:


> i wanna hear.





Wolverine97 said:


> Well then, by all means...


Well, I am well known for consistently bringing in the sugary shit, my buds are always top shelf on the menu and never last more than a few days before they are snatched up. I can brag on and on and on, lol. But this is by far, the absolute frostiest dank I have ever worked with. I have never had such a tough time trimming buds, even with my brand new pair of pruners purchased just for this harvest. I could not believe the thick blonde layer of finger hash forming from just a short while into trimming. Whenever I check the drying nugs my hands get super hashy, more than normal. So far, just by testing out a few quick-dried nugs, it's fucking awesome.

It's Blue Dream, believe it or not! Blue Dream has always been a dank strain, but I've seen it fucked up so many different ways it's hard to get excited over it now. After growing it myself, all I can say is good things about it, killer yields, killer buds, killer smell, mold resistant and easy to grow at low PPM's, she is a 5 star plant if done properly, I don't understand how it gets fucked up so bad. Anyways, I don't know if I can credit this to the MH for the last 5 days, it's hard to tell if she got more resin. She was much more brilliant under the MH, and everyday she got more brilliant, I blame it on increased resin count, but it could be because I longed to see her so... lol.

I say it is absolutely worth a try for all growers, it's a pretty simple thing to do, I have a 400w/600w switch from NextGen on that tent, so it made it super simple for me, I guess it's not fair for everyone. haha.

Sorry about the double post CG.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 1, 2011)

I'll go one further on the sulfur and mag topic, but just a short note; 
Magnesium is essential for chlorophyll development, and the center of every chlorophyll molecule is magnesium. It's totally necessary for plants to stay green, that's why so many people mistake it for a N deficiency though they couldn't be more wrong. The sulfur is critical for the development of the terpene profile of the plant, so people who want the stinkiest shit possible, make sure you have enough sulfur in their diets. 
/thread derailment.


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## collective gardener (Sep 1, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> Do you guys have a store front? Or are you just trying to get rid of more because you have too much at your store front? Charity obviously the key motivation, but I just want to know how to work my idea. But if you already have a store front, a partnership with another store front may become beneficial for both you and the patients. There are lots of small dispensaries starting out that have a very hard time competing with some of the insane operations that are around, and the big green houses up north, and all the other stuff that gives other dispensaries the edge. What you could do is work a trusting relationship and donate your portion of charitable cannabis to their store front, so they can advertise and dispense free medicine for the terminally ill. This not only attracts everyone's attention as a compassionate act, and win's their business, even if they are not terminally ill, but it also sounds damn good in court. You can work out a symbiotic relationship with other legitimate dispensaries in the area. It's almost like a bonus for playing by the rules, even if it makes business tough.



We are not a storefront. But, that is an interesting idea. I'll give that one some thought. I'm delivering meds to my #1 dispensary next week. Maybe I'll run it by them. I just want to make sure it's only people who really need it that get my free stuff.


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## collective gardener (Sep 1, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> Well, I am well known for consistently bringing in the sugary shit, my buds are always top shelf on the menu and never last more than a few days before they are snatched up. I can brag on and on and on, lol. But this is by far, the absolute frostiest dank I have ever worked with. I have never had such a tough time trimming buds, even with my brand new pair of pruners purchased just for this harvest. I could not believe the thick blonde layer of finger hash forming from just a short while into trimming. Whenever I check the drying nugs my hands get super hashy, more than normal. So far, just by testing out a few quick-dried nugs, it's fucking awesome.
> 
> It's Blue Dream, believe it or not! Blue Dream has always been a dank strain, but I've seen it fucked up so many different ways it's hard to get excited over it now. After growing it myself, all I can say is good things about it, killer yields, killer buds, killer smell, mold resistant and easy to grow at low PPM's, she is a 5 star plant if done properly, I don't understand how it gets fucked up so bad. Anyways, I don't know if I can credit this to the MH for the last 5 days, it's hard to tell if she got more resin. She was much more brilliant under the MH, and everyday she got more brilliant, I blame it on increased resin count, but it could be because I longed to see her so... lol.
> 
> ...


 
I agree that Blue Dream is a dream plant for growers. I've found it to be a very high yielding top shelf plant. Around these parts, every grower has found the same thing! Blue Dream has flooded the market for real. I won't touch the stuff now. Most dispensaries can choose from 5 or 6 different Blue Dream vendors. I've seen prices as low as $2,200. I'm really hoping the Casey Jones can give me that same high yielding top shelfer, without the competition driving the price through the floor.


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## kevin murphy (Sep 1, 2011)

have u ever heard of project z7 seeds collective ive just got sum through today straite from mr nice seeds got a 2 week update with them on my signature could you take a look and see if you or sumone u know has grown them


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## chasmtz (Sep 1, 2011)

I am Small time compared to you but have studied the laws for quite some time now. My personal understanding of the law is the same as what you have going on. I am glad to confirm a lot of what I was thinking. Anyhow, I have a question that maybe you can help me with, again its on a smaller level. I am limited on plant numbers and weight by my county, thats fine. I plan to stay 100% legal and I know the laws for my area. What I am not clear on, is what I do with my overages in weight. I am not trying to get rich but making a small return on the investment would be nice. I have no need for a collective to grow/posses/use cannabis because it is my wife and I with our cards. I am wondering how I can get rid of my excess without breaking the law. Or if thats even possible. I would totally setup a business or claim the income, just want to be legal.


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## chasmtz (Sep 1, 2011)

Please do not PM me asking if I have weed for sale, omg people. I am not going to sell to anybody on this site. I am also not going to sell weed to anyone, at anytime, unless I can do so within state, county, and city laws. If you read my journal you will know that I havent even produced flowers yet..... wow, the nerve.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 1, 2011)

chasmtz said:


> Please do not PM me asking if I have weed for sale, omg people. I am not going to sell to anybody on this site. I am also not going to sell weed to anyone, at anytime, unless I can do so within state, county, and city laws. If you read my journal you will know that I havent even produced flowers yet..... wow, the nerve.


I'm sooo curious to know who asked.... but I won't ask...


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## mellokitty (Sep 1, 2011)

chasmtz said:


> Please do not PM me asking if I have weed for sale, omg people. I am not going to sell to anybody on this site. I am also not going to sell weed to anyone, at anytime, unless I can do so within state, county, and city laws. If you read my journal you will know that I havent even produced flowers yet..... wow, the nerve.


 this makes me feel a bit better, i'm not the only one 
(sorry chas, not laughing AT you but WITH you)

i'd like to add one point to this rant: if you ask someone you've never spoken to for something that could get their ticket revoked, and they say no, don't get all butthurt about it. kthanks.


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## collective gardener (Sep 1, 2011)

chasmtz said:


> I am Small time compared to you but have studied the laws for quite some time now. My personal understanding of the law is the same as what you have going on. I am glad to confirm a lot of what I was thinking. Anyhow, I have a question that maybe you can help me with, again its on a smaller level. I am limited on plant numbers and weight by my county, thats fine. I plan to stay 100% legal and I know the laws for my area. What I am not clear on, is what I do with my overages in weight. I am not trying to get rich but making a small return on the investment would be nice. I have no need for a collective to grow/posses/use cannabis because it is my wife and I with our cards. I am wondering how I can get rid of my excess without breaking the law. Or if thats even possible. I would totally setup a business or claim the income, just want to be legal.


 
While I've never addressed you sittuation with my attorney, I have discussed selling our overage to other collectives. It's no problem. You just charge whatever it cost you to grow it. This includes labor, which will be the biggest line item in your cost breakdown. So, start a spreadsheet on all of your costs to grow a crop. Figure out how many hours it took, and charge a reasonable hourly rate. Calc the cost of your grow equipment and write that up as a loan from you to your grow. Say it's $6,000 worth of grow gear. Write up a 2 year note, which would be $250/month. Then the grow gear costs for a 2 month crop would be $500. That becomes a line item. You get the picture? This is just a record that you keep in case you run into some problem with The Man. It shows that you're not making a profit, just being reimbursed for the money spent to grow the product. I won't go into the details of how you get your costs to match market value. I think you can figure that out.


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## collective gardener (Sep 1, 2011)

chasmtz said:


> Please do not PM me asking if I have weed for sale, omg people. I am not going to sell to anybody on this site. I am also not going to sell weed to anyone, at anytime, unless I can do so within state, county, and city laws. If you read my journal you will know that I havent even produced flowers yet..... wow, the nerve.


 
I'll ask, Wolverine. Was it STACKB? He just sent me a PM asking to buy. He was polite enough. But if he's asking everyone, run for the hills. 

Sorry STACKB. I replied asking for your city and state. I was just going to recommend a good dispensary for you to buy from.


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## C.Indica (Sep 1, 2011)

What a good guy CG.
People need to remember that even a twelve year old could start a rollitup, so of course there are all sorts of law enforcement on this site.
And on top of that, many of the surveillance probably happens without registered accounts.

So keep legal.


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## collective gardener (Sep 2, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> What a good guy CG.
> People need to remember that even a twelve year old could start a rollitup, so of course there are all sorts of law enforcement on this site.
> And on top of that, many of the surveillance probably happens without registered accounts.
> 
> So keep legal.


 
Yeah. I'm sure if someone asked enough people to buy at least one poor sap would bite. Personally, I won't even give a sample to someone not a member of our collective. My attorney tells me the stories of how his clients get busted. Most of them are doing totally stupid shit. It's too easy to get complacent these days. In general, the heat is off. Most cops in California won't even hastle you for having a sack in your car with no rec. And I know a married couple growing 15-20 plants in greenhouses with a cop living next door. He's seen the grow, and advised them to lock the greehouse so they wouldn't get ripped off. But, when you go out and sell a pound to a stranger that turns out to be a narcotics officer...that's a felony...and the whole deal gets ugly.


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## C.Indica (Sep 2, 2011)

How about some nice photography of Tray#1?


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## Otis Driftwod (Sep 2, 2011)

That's a hell of a setup man.
Cali is the shit, but with that said everybody is entitled to their opinion and that's cool to.
Bite SizeFreak loving the full metal "bong" quote, nice!!!!!


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## collective gardener (Sep 2, 2011)

So...I broke down and got some AN nutes. I picked up some Sensi 2 part grow, some Conniseur (sp?) 2 part bloom, and some Mother Earth Tea. Just going to try it on a run with 9 plants all the way through. Anyone placing bets on whether it will outperform good ol' Cutting Edge 3 part?


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## mellokitty (Sep 2, 2011)

what the hell for?

the wedding is off.


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## Jozikins (Sep 3, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> So...I broke down and got some AN nutes. I picked up some Sensi 2 part grow, some Conniseur (sp?) 2 part bloom, and some Mother Earth Tea. Just going to try it on a run with 9 plants all the way through. Anyone placing bets on whether it will outperform good ol' Cutting Edge 3 part?


 As the official AN hater of RIU, I have to say it makes me sad  But please prove me wrong that you don't need a million parts! But I do suggest running Wet Betty and Carboload. I would never run any product without a stellar carbohydrate and potassium silicate. As much as I hate AN, their Liquid Carboload can not be beat by any competitive product, as far as flavor goes, molasses cannot compete!

Don't buy Tea, bro, just hit me up, I would be more than happy to deliver tea to a compassionate enthusiast as yourself. Don't pay them for their product, pay me for my gas and I'll give you something custom tailored to your specific needs and plants. Tea is an easy science, and it gives me a big kick brewing it. Next batch is going to have Predatory Nematodes feed with Equisetum and Rock Phosphate.


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## collective gardener (Sep 3, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> what the hell for?
> 
> the wedding is off.


Oh shit! You weren't supposed to read this. Damn it. I think I've been marketed. I've been forced to read so many of their adds it took control of my mind. 

Actually, my favorite hydro shop girl, Hydro E, gave me about $300 worth on the AN shit to try. I wonder if Amazon or Ebay does that? Anyways, she wanted me to run a whole crop through and report back how it worked. I guess she, too, has undergone the AN Mind Change. But she has way too much class to try it herself. I, too, have too much class to try AN. BUT, Hydro E is a semi pro fitness model. She has some mind changing powers of her own. She bent over to grab some AN, and all I could say was "I'll do whatever you want". Next thing I knew I was heading for the op, 5 bottles of AN in tow, calling Commercial J to tell him of my planned test. He hung up on me.


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## mellokitty (Sep 3, 2011)

.... do you think commercial j would be interested in being hubby #2 instead? ....

_hydro e indeed_. i wouldn't use AN if it fell off a truck. i wish i could talk about what i know about them, here. but i know way too much and get way too angry about it. 

this guy does a pretty good job of ranting about them (but there is oh so much more to it than that):
http://dufffreezone.com/past-shows-podcasts/ (the 8/24/11 episode)


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## collective gardener (Sep 3, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> .... do you think commercial j would be interested in being hubby #2 instead? ....
> 
> _hydro e indeed_. i wouldn't use AN if it fell off a truck. i wish i could talk about what i know about them, here. but i know way too much and get way too angry about it.
> 
> ...


I can't believe I lost my number 2 hubby spot over some nutes. Damn!

But, Kitty, no bullshit...PM me with the goods on AN. I just gotta know. I've heard some stuff, but trust you more than the other source

BTW, I have no doubt I'll re-secure my #2 hubby slot.


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## Puanatat (Sep 3, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Welcome. Now we have Australia represented. A couple Asians (from Asia), and a Russian and we'll be fairly whole.
> 
> I came across some tissue sample results years ago and saw sulfur content far exceeding (by proportion) the typical sulfur content in most hydro nutes. I then delved into my favorite hydroponic book "Hydroponic Vegetable Production" (a MUST for any hydro grower...THE textbook for college level hydro classes). It stated that sulfur problems typically started with slowed growth with no outward signs (leaf discoloration, necrosis, etc...). I took this to mean that you could be low on sulfur and never know it. At this point in my growing life there were like 2 hydro stores in the whole Los Angeles area. Foothill Hydroponics was my store. They made their own nutes and carried everything to make your own as well. I started adding magnesium sulfate and my growth exploded. Also, my plants stopped turning purple late in life (low mag...I thought I just had some kill purple shit). If you check the lables on Botanicare Sweet, AN Bud Factor X, Cutting Edge Mag Amp, and several other nute additives, you'll see that the ingredient is magnesium sulfate.
> 
> ...




Thanks again - I didn't expect such an in-depth response. I think I may give it a go on a few plants, even thought I have a large portion of soil mixed in. Ta.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 3, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> So...I broke down and got some AN nutes. I picked up some Sensi 2 part grow, some Conniseur (sp?) 2 part bloom, and some Mother Earth Tea. Just going to try it on a run with 9 plants all the way through. Anyone placing bets on whether it will outperform good ol' Cutting Edge 3 part?


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.... they're all gonna laugh at you. They're all gonna laugh at you. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

/Adam Sandler reference

But for serious, check out this link CG: http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/PEST/docs/pdf/lab_2009_1231_1.pdf?ga=t
I've got more if you want to dig in further.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 3, 2011)

Puanatat said:


> Thanks again - I didn't expect such an in-depth response. I think I may give it a go on a few plants, even thought I have a large portion of soil mixed in. Ta.


What else would you expect from CG?


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 3, 2011)

some of the best responses have come from CG lots of good info


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## collective gardener (Sep 3, 2011)

I really don't try to be so long winded. It's just that when dealing with complex issues, there is rarely a short answer. I don't know about the rest of you, but I want to know _why_ things work. Then I can use that info in my particular settup. All our rooms are so different. A product will probably have to be used differently in every op to obtain the same results. 

Look at the ideal PPM. So many factors come into play determining the best PPM for a grow op: growing method, container size, feeding schedule, flush schedule, humidity, medium, strain, etc...That's just one simple aspect of the grow. It makes me sick when I hear people make blanket statements: "40% is the best RH"..."You should flush for 14 days"..."You should use an aerocloner"...and so on and so on. 

The most interesting part of growing for me is the vast array of decisions to be made...and the vast amount of factors that come into play with every decision. It's very easy to start growing. But the ceiling of knowledge is quite high.


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## MrEDuck (Sep 3, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I really don't try to be so long winded. It's just that when dealing with complex issues, there is rarely a short answer. I don't know about the rest of you, but I want to know _why_ things work. Then I can use that info in my particular settup. All our rooms are so different. A product will probably have to be used differently in every op to obtain the same results.
> 
> Look at the ideal PPM. So many factors come into play determining the best PPM for a grow op: growing method, container size, feeding schedule, flush schedule, humidity, medium, strain, etc...That's just one simple aspect of the grow. It makes me sick when I hear people make blanket statements: "40% is the best RH"..."You should flush for 14 days"..."You should use an aerocloner"...and so on and so on.
> 
> The most interesting part of growing for me is the vast array of decisions to be made...and the vast amount of factors that come into play with every decision. It's very easy to start growing. But the ceiling of knowledge is quite high.


The number of variables is amazing. I was trying to come up with a series of experiments to optimize my grow and I realized we won't be in the space long enough to get even half of it done. Time to go back to the drawing spreadsheet.


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## mellokitty (Sep 3, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> The most interesting part of growing for me is the vast array of decisions to be made...and the vast amount of factors that come into play with every decision. It's very easy to start growing. But the ceiling of knowledge is quite high.


ok, ok, hubby #2 status reinstated already. and again,... GTFO MY HEAD. 

i wear my heart on my sleeve, or rather, in my sig..... 

mr duck, i love experiments too. these days, with our 35 plant limit, it takes SOME doing to get mr. mello to give me ONE plant to try something crazy and newfangled on.... (little does he know there's going to be a bunch going on at harvest-time this time around.... mwa hahahaha)


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## MrEDuck (Sep 3, 2011)

Experimentation is indeed awesome. I just wish I could figure out how to do it faster. I'm used to chemistry, even crazy syntheses can be carried out in under a week generally. And it's much easier to run several tests at once.


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## mellokitty (Sep 3, 2011)

.... what that you say....?

"too many variables"? *evil cackles*

[/smartass]


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## MrEDuck (Sep 3, 2011)

It's not too many variables. It's just I wish I could test them faster. I will happily spend the rest of my life testing said variables though.
If anyone ever wants any scholarly journal articles related to growing (or anything else) lemme know. I have fulltext access to a huge number of journals because my college research group hasn't changed it's library password.


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## Jozikins (Sep 3, 2011)

MrEDuck said:


> It's not too many variables. It's just I wish I could test them faster. I will happily spend the rest of my life testing said variables though.
> If anyone ever wants any scholarly journal articles related to growing (or anything else) lemme know. I have fulltext access to a huge number of journals because my college research group hasn't changed it's library password.


I might roll up a hashy blunt and inquire further on that. I'll pop you a PM if I decide too.


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## Puanatat (Sep 4, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> What else would you expect from CG?


I like to keep my expectations low, even though CG has been a class act throughout this thread, I was surprised and delited to see a good response. Especially considering his level of experience. What a nice guy haha!


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## dapio (Sep 4, 2011)

Hey CG have you ever mentioned this website to your attorney, if so what did he have to say?


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## collective gardener (Sep 5, 2011)

Some pics taken tonight:

in no particular order

A fresh batch of clones. Who says you need an aero cloner?...$5 clone tray, Dip-n-Grow and 100% success everytime

The Big Mommas rockwool blocks are pretty fucking big. I'm putting the clone on early to get a better root mass.

The trunk from the last of the trees.

Extra lights in veg room from when we grew trees. They're going into the bloom room in next week's remodel.

About a 2 Oz plant ready for trimming.

Approx. 3lbs of drying buds...and we got a LOOOOOOONG way to go. Yipee!

A couple closeups of the Pre-98 Bubba Kush. She is a low yielder, but oh so good. The entire crop is already spoken for...even had to tell a couple folks "Sold Out". I'm counting my luck stars, knocking on wood, and all kinds of other shit.


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## collective gardener (Sep 5, 2011)

dapio said:


> Hey CG have you ever mentioned this website to your attorney, if so what did he have to say?


I've never said anything, cause I know exactly what he'd say. But, for what I pay him, I should be able to publish the grow address in USA Today without an worries.


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 5, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 1770617View attachment 1770616View attachment 1770615View attachment 1770614View attachment 1770613View attachment 1770612View attachment 1770611View attachment 1770610
> 
> Some pics taken tonight:
> 
> ...


looks great CG love that pre-98 bubba looks tasty


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## Jozikins (Sep 5, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 1770617View attachment 1770616View attachment 1770615View attachment 1770614View attachment 1770613View attachment 1770612View attachment 1770611View attachment 1770610
> 
> Some pics taken tonight:
> 
> ...


 I can truly appreciate the effort you and your helpers put into keeping everything clean. This is surely a large credit to your success. Everything is clean and accessible, and that makes it so much easier to work efficiently. You work really well with that rockwool too, yours is always spotless and proportionate to the plant (well at least you try to keep it proportionate!)

Also, Dip N Grow is the shit, the only other product that I've used that is as good is the Rootech and the Clonex gel, but at 3x the price, and only a fraction of the product, it really doesn't hold much value. Dip N Grow all the way.


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## collective gardener (Sep 5, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> I can truly appreciate the effort you and your helpers put into keeping everything clean. This is surely a large credit to your success. Everything is clean and accessible, and that makes it so much easier to work efficiently. You work really well with that rockwool too, yours is always spotless and proportionate to the plant (well at least you try to keep it proportionate!)
> 
> Also, Dip N Grow is the shit, the only other product that I've used that is as good is the Rootech and the Clonex gel, but at 3x the price, and only a fraction of the product, it really doesn't hold much value. Dip N Grow all the way.


 
Thank you very much for the kind words. I can't take credit for the cleanliness...my wife can't stand messes and keeps the place pretty sterile. There's always a slight hint of bleach smell in the air...and that's a good thing.

I _can_ take credit for the layout, and everything being accessible. For years I would build my grow ops too crowded. It was just greed, really. I always had X amount of space to work with and wanted to jam as much canopy into it as possible. This grow was different. There were no limits. I had 1,500 sq ft total warehouse space, and 400 amps of 3 phase power. Shit, there wasn't even a $$$ limit. So, I decided that this grow was going to have walkways, storage space, and basic room to move around. I think a good formula for the bloom room is 2 sq ft of total space for every 1 sq ft of canopy. My room is a little tighter than that, but close enough. For veg think 4 to 1 is better. Most of the work and storage is in the veg room, and you need more room.

Of course, with time comes expansion plans. The original 200 sq ft of bloom canopy will soom become 236...soon, as in, next week. I was hoping for 264+, but the need for walkways and elbow room crushed the idea. The total area in the bloom room is 348 sq ft. As you can see, I'm deviating from my own 2 to 1 ideal. The only saving grace is that there will be zero equipment on the ground in the bloom room. The carbon filters are mounted up high (we have a 10' ceiling), the fans on the wall, and the nute tanks are all in veg. With nothing on the floor, moving about will not be too bad. I'm giving up some walking space for 4 dedicated 9 sq ft testing trays, 2 lit by 600's and 2 lit by dimmable 1000's. That's a fair trade. I'll miss the extra space, but now we can do some REAL testing, without affecting the production of the rest of the room. When we're not testing, those 4 trays represent about 2 lbs per month of extra meds. 

To stay on topic (clean and organized), I've had messy grow ops before. It's not fun and it's dangerous. I'm really trying to keep this one clean and organized. When I visit a new dispensary to drop off samples, I bring pics of the grow op. My hope is that clean grow room pics will tell the guy that we're who he/she should be doing business with. One guy said he was going to start dermanding pics from all his vendors. From some the the extension cord laced ops I've seen in here, it won't be pretty.


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## TheLastWood (Sep 5, 2011)

See gardener now you just need to learn how to grow "in layers" lol. All that free space up by the cieling is valuable real estate man. You could have a whole nother 236 sq ft on top of your 236 sq ft!.

Lol I'm just messin with ya, but its funny cuz I bet you will ponder on the idea for a while. If anyone could do it it'd be u.


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## greenthumbsman (Sep 5, 2011)

i seen you was pondering over the AN my suggestion is XNURTIETS they have free samples to try and man im tellin ive never used ANYTHING out here that runs as clean as that stuff especially for the price ive used ff ,an,bc,gh,and dutchmaster this stuff is awesome just my two sense lol awesome op by the way im def droolin


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## greenthumbsman (Sep 5, 2011)

Xnutrients *****


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## greenthumbsman (Sep 5, 2011)

there on facebook under hydroponiX


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## Jozikins (Sep 5, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Thank you very much for the kind words. I can't take credit for the cleanliness...my wife can't stand messes and keeps the place pretty sterile. There's always a slight hint of bleach smell in the air...and that's a good thing.
> 
> I _can_ take credit for the layout, and everything being accessible. For years I would build my grow ops too crowded. It was just greed, really. I always had X amount of space to work with and wanted to jam as much canopy into it as possible. This grow was different. There were no limits. I had 1,500 sq ft total warehouse space, and 400 amps of 3 phase power. Shit, there wasn't even a $$$ limit. So, I decided that this grow was going to have walkways, storage space, and basic room to move around. I think a good formula for the bloom room is 2 sq ft of total space for every 1 sq ft of canopy. My room is a little tighter than that, but close enough. For veg think 4 to 1 is better. Most of the work and storage is in the veg room, and you need more room.
> 
> ...


You're welcome for the compliment, a well deserved one for you and your wife. I to love the slight smell of bleach in the air in all my grow rooms. Let's me know I don't have a problem to look forward too.

I like how you keep space open, we have tried to do that in my space but there just isn't enough room for the both of us, so we are now sacrificing our comfort for more plants. We aren't producing like we should be at the moment, and it's because we are catering to much to ourselves and not the plants. I wish they required photos of grow room to vend, it would get rid of a lot of dirty ass weed. I'm always so scared to try something someone bought for 5 dollars a gram at a dispensary, who knows what horribly disgusting conditions and treatments those plants were in.

I highly suggest sacrificing space for experimenting though! I have been growing with experimental grow spaces for a long time now and have never regretted it, it propels you through a lot of grow experience very quickly. I think you are going to enjoy growing with 600w lamps. I surely do. For a few short months, I was once gifted with unlimited space, equipment, and money, but greed is too much for some people and because of that persons greed my opportunity was taken away. But it only leaves me more room and time to create something much better on my own or with friends.


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## C.Indica (Sep 6, 2011)

Party Cup!


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 6, 2011)

Sup CG thought id stop by and shoot the shit if you were around?


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## collective gardener (Sep 6, 2011)

greenthumbsman said:


> i seen you was pondering over the AN my suggestion is XNURTIETS they have free samples to try and man im tellin ive never used ANYTHING out here that runs as clean as that stuff especially for the price ive used ff ,an,bc,gh,and dutchmaster this stuff is awesome just my two sense lol awesome op by the way im def droolin


Thanks for the rec. For now, I'm gonna keep the testing to just a few things on the shelf at my hydro store. I, too have tried most of the nutes you mentioned. I've just steered away from AN because I really don't care for the company. I also think with that much money spent on marketing, how much could be left for what goes into the bottle. But, I just had to give that Coneseur a try. I have to say (and I HATE to say), the plants getting the AN have a better bud set and tighter node spacing than my good ol Cutting edge. From experience I know that in itself doesn't mean much....we're only 20 days into blooming. To justify the cost, That stuff is really going to have to perform outstanding.


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## collective gardener (Sep 6, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> You're welcome for the compliment, a well deserved one for you and your wife. I to love the slight smell of bleach in the air in all my grow rooms. Let's me know I don't have a problem to look forward too.
> 
> I like how you keep space open, we have tried to do that in my space but there just isn't enough room for the both of us, so we are now sacrificing our comfort for more plants. We aren't producing like we should be at the moment, and it's because we are catering to much to ourselves and not the plants. I wish they required photos of grow room to vend, it would get rid of a lot of dirty ass weed. I'm always so scared to try something someone bought for 5 dollars a gram at a dispensary, who knows what horribly disgusting conditions and treatments those plants were in.
> 
> I highly suggest sacrificing space for experimenting though! I have been growing with experimental grow spaces for a long time now and have never regretted it, it propels you through a lot of grow experience very quickly. I think you are going to enjoy growing with 600w lamps. I surely do. For a few short months, I was once gifted with unlimited space, equipment, and money, but greed is too much for some people and because of that persons greed my opportunity was taken away. But it only leaves me more room and time to create something much better on my own or with friends.


I'll be losing some of that open space in bloom pretty quick. Fortunately, my veg room is huge, and that's where I do all of my work. Even pruning plants in bloom takes place in the veg room. We were originally growing trees, so the veg room has 6 - 1000 watt lights, a 4 bulb T-5, an 8 bulb T-5, and a clone light. It also houses the main RO water res and 4 nutrients res's. Add to that all of our rockwool, nute, and growing tools. Even with all that, there's still a ton of room in there. In fact, 2 - 1000 watt lights are being moved into the bloom room during the remodel. I can easily get by with 2 - 4x8 tables lit by 2 - 1000's each. I've been using the T-5's for the first few days that the cuttings are out of the cloning trays.

Trying the Grodan Big Mammas for the first time. They absolutely need to be soaked overnight prior to using. I tried a 10 minute soak, to no avail. Half hour after I placed the 4" blocks on the Big Mammas, the Big Mamma dried out and took the water in the 4" block with it. If I didn't happen to check them I could have lost my whole batch of freshly rooted cuts. I'm thinking they might just be a tad too big. Currently, I'm trying Hugo blocks sitting on about 4" of Grodan croutons in a 2 gallon pot. That is working quite well. The roots grow out the bottom of the Hugos into the very wet croutons...giving the plants some extra water should the Hugo get dry. I also feel that the air space between the croutons is a wonderful source of oxygen for the roots. I was hoping the Big Mammas would makw life easier by allowing me to just use a bare block, instead of a Hugo in a pot on top of croutons. But the Big Mammas are just SOOOOO big and such a pain to wet out. Plus, they're over $5/each. I'm going to run 28 of them and see what happens. If they don't do better than the Hugo/crouton combo, I'll stop using them. The Hugos can just be dipped in nutrient solution for a few seconds and they're good to go. 

As far as 600's, I think they will work well for the testing trays. Each 600 will light a 3x3 tray with 9 plants. I'm more exited about the testing trays than the increased production space. I've always wanted to see if I could get a live "soil" organic grow going in rockwool. With the HUGE selection of liquid organic nutes now available, it should be quite easy. A couple of dispensaries I deal with are asking me if I can supply them with organic Bubba. I'm sure that, in time, most California dispensaries will be buying mostly organic. If I can get the rockwool to yield the same with organic nutes as it currently does with chem nutes, I'll probably be all organic within a year. But I won't change anything in the production trays until the new method is thoroughly proven in the test trays. I've spent too long getting the current system yielding what it is today. 

Damn I write alot. It's 2am and I'm kind of punchy from lack of sleep...or maybe it was that Lavander blunt I just took to the head.


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## C.Indica (Sep 6, 2011)

Hey CG, I've been up all night too..
Half drunk from this morning still.

Well I suppose that would be yesterday morning.
I really enjoy reading this thread, it's like a safe haven.

What you are doing is indoor agriculture, where quality and money saved have to be at equilibrium.
Here I get to read and study the commercial process, and learn many good reasons for silly tricks and methods.

Thanks for your work, and an immense kudos for excellent documentation.
More photoshoots would be nice though, just saying


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## Jozikins (Sep 6, 2011)

Wow bro. I just typed out an equally as long and very informative response, and one backspace stroke took it all away from me... wtf RIU??
I'll give you my input tomorrow, or maybe after another giant bowl. Fucking A', organics, 600's, and utilizing grow space are my specialties, especially as of late!


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## C.Indica (Sep 6, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> Wow bro. I just typed out an equally as long and very informative response, and one backspace stroke took it all away from me... wtf RIU??
> I'll give you my input tomorrow, or maybe after another giant bowl. Fucking A', organics, 600's, and utilizing grow space are my specialties, especially as of late!


Sucker.
(Had to)


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## Jozikins (Sep 6, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I'll be losing some of that open space in bloom pretty quick. Fortunately, my veg room is huge, and that's where I do all of my work. Even pruning plants in bloom takes place in the veg room. We were originally growing trees, so the veg room has 6 - 1000 watt lights, a 4 bulb T-5, an 8 bulb T-5, and a clone light. It also houses the main RO water res and 4 nutrients res's. Add to that all of our rockwool, nute, and growing tools. Even with all that, there's still a ton of room in there. In fact, 2 - 1000 watt lights are being moved into the bloom room during the remodel. I can easily get by with 2 - 4x8 tables lit by 2 - 1000's each. I've been using the T-5's for the first few days that the cuttings are out of the cloning trays.
> 
> Trying the Grodan Big Mammas for the first time. They absolutely need to be soaked overnight prior to using. I tried a 10 minute soak, to no avail. Half hour after I placed the 4" blocks on the Big Mammas, the Big Mamma dried out and took the water in the 4" block with it. If I didn't happen to check them I could have lost my whole batch of freshly rooted cuts. I'm thinking they might just be a tad too big. Currently, I'm trying Hugo blocks sitting on about 4" of Grodan croutons in a 2 gallon pot. That is working quite well. The roots grow out the bottom of the Hugos into the very wet croutons...giving the plants some extra water should the Hugo get dry. I also feel that the air space between the croutons is a wonderful source of oxygen for the roots. I was hoping the Big Mammas would makw life easier by allowing me to just use a bare block, instead of a Hugo in a pot on top of croutons. But the Big Mammas are just SOOOOO big and such a pain to wet out. Plus, they're over $5/each. I'm going to run 28 of them and see what happens. If they don't do better than the Hugo/crouton combo, I'll stop using them. The Hugos can just be dipped in nutrient solution for a few seconds and they're good to go.
> 
> ...


Okay, so I smoked a bowl, have another one loaded, and I'm copying what I type as I go this time! I write a lot as well, but it's because we dig what we do, you can't talk about it without hearing passion, you can't write about it without expressing that passion. 2 4x8 tables with 2 1k fixtures is pretty standard issue, so you should be dandy. I love that you trim in a room with lots of extra HID's too, I always hang up HID's in the room I'm trimming in if I have to trim more than a qp, my eyes start to hurt real fast and then it's just a struggle without the HID lighting. 

As far as the Big Mamma's, I always recommend presoaking your blocks no matter what size for at least one day. I know it can be done in a matter of minutes for the most part, it is best to be able to monitor the pH over a course of 1-2 days and makes sure nothing funny starts happening. I do this with my peat plugs and when I did hydro I did it with all my blocks of all sizes, I never used blocks as large as you do though, I was in DWC with smaller plants. But you only have one chance to give your plants a fantastic start, after that, all you can do is try and correct it with a fantastic follow through, but nothing beats a head start off the line.

I believe you can absolutely get a living medium going in your rockwool cubes, you use your cubes more as a soiless medium than anything, so you should be able to get away with it, I don't see why not. I am currently rocking BioBizz as well as brewing my own tea's, I highly recommend both, nuts to buying store bought, prepackaged teas. VermiTea is great shit, no doubt, same with BounTea, but nothing beats your own made with a excellent recipe. The BioBizz is so far preforming very well, I bought all the parts to it and most of them are hydro safe. I don't need any extra ca/mg, I don't even think I need silica, but I still add it anyways. BioBizz is a complete fertilizer and so far into this grow, everything is up to par with the House & Garden complete line up. Last round I only used tea, my custom soil mix, and one application of shooting powder, which I shouldn't have done, fucked with the experiment. But my yields were still near the same, give or take because of the plant size, and the smell, taste, and smoothness of the smoke was amazing, even after a very short flush... which I guess was pretty useless with a lot of the stuff I put in the soil anyways, lol.

When I am done with the pure BioBizz round I will let you know. I am doing it with both living"soil" I made from a Sunshine Mix #4, and then plain Sunshine Mix #4 as well, I will let you know the results on the plain sunshine side of the room. So far I am very impressed with the BioBizz product, and the customer service is fantastic, informative and a sense of humor. I would shoot them an email about your ideas, I know by the next day they will have a excellent response, they are on dutch time. I went organic because dispensaries were more demanding of it, so far I have not regretted this decision, it makes everyone happy and has been an amazing science experiment for me, so much fun. But be damn can earthworm castings burn up a plant, I thought they would be much more mild! lol.

Right now I am using the XXXL Magnum hoods with 600w's, and I am getting a 3.8 x 3.8 foot print with great growth! They have lousy light penetration though compared to other hoods I have used, they are best for plants around 2ft in my experience, but I'm going to start using a few larger plants and see what happens. I can't get too tall in my current set up though. I really like the Yield Masters II's best so far to be honest. Just good for all-around applications. I want to try the Block Buster hoods though, looks like you have a few in the veg room, actually.

Organics takes a lot of adjusting too and you will have your fair share of overfeed or over watered and even underfeed plants getting the whole "Living" medium thing going, but once you do it's worth it. Tea makes everything so cheap too, and the flavor of your end product can't be beat! Really brought the OG flavor out in the SFV OG (Swerve's remake). Pure Lemon Diesel Funk. So far I have not seen any wimpy colas in my garden either, nothing but over-fattened colas!

And now I continue the smoking


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## collective gardener (Sep 6, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> Okay, so I smoked a bowl, have another one loaded, and I'm copying what I type as I go this time! I write a lot as well, but it's because we dig what we do, you can't talk about it without hearing passion, you can't write about it without expressing that passion. 2 4x8 tables with 2 1k fixtures is pretty standard issue, so you should be dandy. I love that you trim in a room with lots of extra HID's too, I always hang up HID's in the room I'm trimming in if I have to trim more than a qp, my eyes start to hurt real fast and then it's just a struggle without the HID lighting.
> 
> As far as the Big Mamma's, I always recommend presoaking your blocks no matter what size for at least one day. I know it can be done in a matter of minutes for the most part, it is best to be able to monitor the pH over a course of 1-2 days and makes sure nothing funny starts happening. I do this with my peat plugs and when I did hydro I did it with all my blocks of all sizes, I never used blocks as large as you do though, I was in DWC with smaller plants. But you only have one chance to give your plants a fantastic start, after that, all you can do is try and correct it with a fantastic follow through, but nothing beats a head start off the line.
> 
> ...


 
Nice response. Now it's on. Touche! On Guard!

You can tell me all you want about Bio Bizz...none of it means anything compared to what you said about customer service. I'll try it. Just because you say they have great customer service, is plenty for me. If a company makes a shitty product, they won't want to talk to you about it. Therefore their service will suck. But, if a company believes it's making a great product, they will be happy to talk to us about it. I simply refuse to buy anything from a company that won't talk to me. And, they're out there. 

You are spot on with the limits of the 600's. It's a light that must be used properly to work. I've never even HEARD of someone lighting a 3.8 x 3.8 space with a 600...regardless of reflector. I guess that's still over the absolute minimum 40 watts/sq ft level. I like that you recognize the limitations of those lights., and adjust your canopy to suit the light's capacity. I hear people on here all the time claiming 600's are SOOOOOO much better than 1000's, without adjusting their grow to fit the light. Bottom line is, it takes some experience to grow well with 600's. When I say "grow well", I mean to achieve results similar to what can be had with 1000 watt lights. I'm split right down the middle. If I could redo this grow, I don't know if I would stay with 1000's or go to several more 600's. Eeither way, I grow with a minimum of 60 watts/sq ft. After the bloom room remodel, adding the 2 lights from veg into bloom will give me closer to 70 watts/sq ft. 

I'm glad you noticed my Blockbusters. Those are very nice reflectors: Easy to clean, even lighting pattern, and built well with good materials. The Blockbuster would be an excellent choice for a 600 watt light. It still gives plenty of spread, without SO much diffusion as to dilute the light too much (as a Raptor or XXl may do). The Blockbuster may just be the best size for all purpose growing. If you were growing an 18" - 24" finished canopy height, one of the larger reflectors may perform a tad better. 

I'm super pumped about the organic nute testing. I have the highest hopes for the Yellow Bottle nutes...Hydro International Advanced Floriculture. I just love their lineup. I also like the looks of AN's Iguana for an orgainic base nute. I know that I want to use a high end base nute that has everything. This is my safety net. My days of custom blending the entire nute schedule are over. After I find the organic base nute that will give the plants everything they need, I'll add other stuff to give them also what they want. I've had great success in prior organic live soil grows. But, on this one, I will not acept a decrease in yield.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 6, 2011)

Are you changing mediums as well, or staying with rockwool?


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## collective gardener (Sep 6, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Are you changing mediums as well, or staying with rockwool?


Absolutely staying with rockwool. It's so ironic that my very first grow in 1992 was rockwool. Since I've tried every conceivable growing method. Yet, here I am...back at rockwool. 

I don'y know how many people are doing organic in rockwool...I doubt that there are too many. I've read that coco is better for establishing life in the medium. I've just had such better quality and quantity with rockwool on this grow. Not to mention the simplicity, labor savings, and ease of disposal. Since I hand water once per day, the water retention rockwool offers is a real plus. I can also increase/decrease the volume of media very easily...customizing the volume to be just ready for water after 24 hrs. 

Even if I can't get good colonization in the rockwool, I believe that just feeding the plants all organic liquid nutes will make a taste/aroma difference. But, if it doesn't, I'll still be "organic", which is where we'll need to be within the next few years to satisfy the granola head market. I would never have even tried this 5 years ago. There just wasn't the availablity of quality filtered liquid organic nutes. When I grew organic most of my nutes were in the form of top dressings and a fairly hot custom soil blend in very large containers. This was mostly done in my light and climate controlled greehouses. I tried it indoors just one time. WAY too much a mess for indoor growing. 

So, this live organic rockwool thing will require some lengthy testing. I'm figuring a year to get it dialed in right. I would love to get some suggestions from you guys for a COMPLETE organic base mix. Something similar to AN Iguana. The first 500ppm will be the base mix. That's my "insurance" to make sure all the elemental bases are covered. Then we'll add a big variety of other shit. But, the base must contain all the Macro, Secondary, and Micros. If it's lean on one or 2 things, I can always supplement. 

Thank you all iin advance for your suggestions. Your opinions mean alot to me...well MOST of your opinions...LMFAO.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 6, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Absolutely staying with rockwool. It's so ironic that my very first grow in 1992 was rockwool. Since I've tried every conceivable growing method. Yet, here I am...back at rockwool.
> 
> I don'y know how many people are doing organic in rockwool...I doubt that there are too many. I've read that coco is better for establishing life in the medium. I've just had such better quality and quantity with rockwool on this grow. Not to mention the simplicity, labor savings, and ease of disposal. Since I hand water once per day, the water retention rockwool offers is a real plus. I can also increase/decrease the volume of media very easily...customizing the volume to be just ready for water after 24 hrs.
> 
> ...


Good luck with it CG. I'm sure you know this already, but the whole key to living organics (what I do) is the CEC (cation exchange capacity)of your medium. So you'll never be able to achieve good microherd numbers, but that may not matter. Then again, it may if you go Bio Bizz. With synthetic nutrients (with quality chelation) it doesn't really matter what kind of microlife you have going on, as the plant is able to absorb everything immediately. With organic nutrient lines, you need that CEC of the medium to "hold onto" the elements so the herd can do its work. With constant addition of microbes it may work just fine though, I really don't know. 

I could go on and on, but that's why I was asking about the rockwool.


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## collective gardener (Sep 6, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Good luck with it CG. I'm sure you know this already, but the whole key to living organics (what I do) is the CEC (cation exchange capacity)of your medium. So you'll never be able to achieve good microherd numbers, but that may not matter. Then again, it may if you go Bio Bizz. With synthetic nutrients (with quality chelation) it doesn't really matter what kind of microlife you have going on, as the plant is able to absorb everything immediately. With organic nutrient lines, you need that CEC of the medium to "hold onto" the elements so the herd can do its work. With constant addition of microbes it may work just fine though, I really don't know.
> 
> I could go on and on, but that's why I was asking about the rockwool.


I agree with you 100%. This may or may not work with rockwool. I like your idea about constantly adding microbes. Maybe even with every watering? I could also keep some supercharged tea brewing at all times. Would you recommend homade teas, or bottled microbes to keep the life going? Or both? I've only used teas in the past...there were very few botttled products the last time I had an organic grow of any size. Do you have a favorite bottled microbe that you think I should try? What do you think about starting the life in the rockwool block a week (or more) before we even load the plant onto it? We could even put the blocks on a heat mat to supercharge the microbe growth? Whatever we do, we need to keep it CLEAN. I can't have the place turn into a dirt farm. Your suggestions, as always, are appreciated.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 6, 2011)

Living soil is my thing and honestly, I'm just getting into the science of teas. In a perfect world I'd say tea hands down over bottled, but so much comes down to proper aeration and base materials. It would probably be better to start with bottled (IMO) so you have a good baseline to work from. I do make my own tea, but I've been getting a bit lazy with it lately. I really like Xtreme Gardening Mykos, and Azos so far. They're single species inoculants, and I also use Great White but really only for the trichoderma. If you were to try to build a colony prior to transplanting into the blocks, I'd start with bacterial rather than a fungal culture. Which ever way you go, I'm sure it will turn out dank. 

Also, there's a new bacterial product out called Quantum Growth that I really want to try, just haven't ordered it yet. It supposedly has a two year shelf life.


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## Jozikins (Sep 6, 2011)

I'm so fucking defeated man. It happened again, this response was at least twice as long. I saved it all and lost it when I posted a link in it, and I thought I resaved it but it didn't happen, ,this time it was an error by rollitup. It signed me out, and when I signed back in, instead of posting it, the page was no good and brought me to a blank url, and everything was lost!!!

God fucking dammit man, I want to help you because I have experience with all of this shit but RIU will not stop bugging up. This is why half of everyone on here is an idiot, all of our good information gets lost! You'll have to forgive me if I submit 10 responses for now on, 1 for each paragraph!! Arrrgghhh, I'm having a little fit over this right now, I need to go burn one. I spent like an hour typing all that out, I had some great links too!



http://urbangardenmagazine.com/2011/02/breeding-microbes-with-compost-tea/ Here is the stupid fucking url I copied that lost me all the shit I typed out. I guess I'll use notepad as back up next time. 

Great fucking source of info though and brings you to one or two other fantastic resources. If you grow your own, you might as well brew your own.


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## marcu5 (Sep 6, 2011)

i read this entire thread within a day, wow, incredible read. +rep


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## TheLastWood (Sep 7, 2011)

I used to use mycos in my coco, I swore it made a differance, but then I heard ph down kills the mycos so I stopped usin it.

Is that true?

I like botanicare, I know my pure blend pro isn't "true living organic" or live soil, but its still a synthetic organic, and I'm very happy with it.


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## BambamLFC (Sep 7, 2011)

BiteSizeFreak said:


> If I owned hell and Cali, I'd rent out Cali and live in hell. lol  Seriously though, can't stand the place. Aside from the pretty girls and good weed laws I find nothing else redeeming about the state. I usually don't bring it up for obvious reasons lol
> 
> Anyway, I'll just kinda piece out here for a little while or this whole thread will get jacked by people mad that I don't like Cali
> 
> PS: Oh yeah, good wine too!


Dude, that is the selling point! hot bitches and legal weed shit what else do u want man!?


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## THISguyy (Sep 7, 2011)

wwwooowww.


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## collective gardener (Sep 7, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> I used to use mycos in my coco, I swore it made a differance, but then I heard ph down kills the mycos so I stopped usin it.
> 
> Is that true?
> 
> I like botanicare, I know my pure blend pro isn't "true living organic" or live soil, but its still a synthetic organic, and I'm very happy with it.


 
Wood,

I like the whole Botanicare lineup. It's like "Organic Light". I settup my 70 year old patient growing with Botanicare to start. She insisted on organic (so I lied a little). She's since gone top dressing with real organics. But the Botanicare got her up and rolling semi-organic with zero growing experience. That Sweet Raw is a very inexpensive source of magnesium Sulfate. I used to use tons of the Cal Mag to wet out coco with. I think for the $$$ you can't beat the stuff. Good job.


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## collective gardener (Sep 7, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> I used to use mycos in my coco, I swore it made a differance, but then I heard ph down kills the mycos so I stopped usin it.
> 
> Is that true?
> 
> I like botanicare, I know my pure blend pro isn't "true living organic" or live soil, but its still a synthetic organic, and I'm very happy with it.


My understanding is that low PH will hurt Mycos. I'm sure if you're over 6.0 you'll be just fine. Wow...Mycos...you're getting me pumped to start some organic growing. I went to Grandma Rasta's (70 year old grower) house yesterday and burned a blunt with her. Her shit is 100% live soil organic. All the nutes are either in the original soil mix or top dressing. Anyways, the pot was out of this world. She makes my Bubba taste like something totally different...and better. I forgot what a difference it makes when you do it right. People who say there's no difference haven't smoked the real deal live soil organic. Shit, I grow hydro for a living, but still prefer to smoke the organic. Hope I can get the same quality from my new patented "Live Rockwool Organic".


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## a random screen name (Sep 7, 2011)

Absolutely speechless at this thiread.. PROPS


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## Puanatat (Sep 8, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> I'm so fucking defeated man. It happened again, this response was at least twice as long. I saved it all and lost it when I posted a link in it, and I thought I resaved it but it didn't happen, ,this time it was an error by rollitup. It signed me out, and when I signed back in, instead of posting it, the page was no good and brought me to a blank url, and everything was lost!!!
> 
> God fucking dammit man, I want to help you because I have experience with all of this shit but RIU will not stop bugging up. This is why half of everyone on here is an idiot, all of our good information gets lost! You'll have to forgive me if I submit 10 responses for now on, 1 for each paragraph!! Arrrgghhh, I'm having a little fit over this right now, I need to go burn one. I spent like an hour typing all that out, I had some great links too!
> 
> ...


*
Yeah I learnt my lesson quite quickly with RIU. Now I type everything up in Microsoft Word, paste my links in there as well and it checks my spelling hahaha! Then I just paste it into RIU and if it doesn't work the first time I just do it again, I'm yet to do it twice though. I do the same on my iPhone as well, copy everything after I finish typing my response. Hope this helps.*

Top stuff as always CG, you've got me wondering about going organic...*

How's the experimental grow area going, what are your plans - have they changed? I can't remember but what was the go with the induction lighting? I remember a lot *of people asking ten or so pages back. No pressure though, just wondering.


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## TheLastWood (Sep 8, 2011)

Well when I'm deciding when to chop, before my 3 DAY FLUSH I will snip a bud, give her a 2 day dry then smoke a bowl, and I never taste any "chemicals" or even a "hay" smell that ppl talk about.

I don't know if its the "synthetic organic" or if those are just rumors. And after a nice cure they always taste and smoke good. 

I work 40 hours minimum a week(sometimes up to 60 hrs), and have to do everything around the house as well, and don't have the time to go fully organic. 

Trust me, I would love to compost and have a worm bin, both interest me a lot. Then I could brew teas and top dress and throw the rest in an outdoor garden. 
Coco is so easy and I have great results with it. I think I'm gonna try a few plants in rockwool.
If I ever went organic I would mix up a big batch of subcools super soil, I think the "just add water" technique could be right up my alley.


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## collective gardener (Sep 8, 2011)

Puanatat said:


> *
> Yeah I learnt my lesson quite quickly with RIU. Now I type everything up in Microsoft Word, paste my links in there as well and it checks my spelling hahaha! Then I just paste it into RIU and if it doesn't work the first time I just do it again, I'm yet to do it twice though. I do the same on my iPhone as well, copy everything after I finish typing my response. Hope this helps.*
> 
> Top stuff as always CG, you've got me wondering about going organic...*
> ...


 
The inductive lighting test will be done. When I was getting ready to do it several months ago I get hit by mites and all extra time was spent eradicating, and finally destroying a crop. The we changed from trees to SOG...from coco to rockwool...and from having a full time employee to just my wife and I. The whole idea behind the proposed 4 testing trays is to be able to run tests at a moments notice with no hassle or settup time. When the current harvest is trimmed, cured, and distributed I can begin the bloom room remodel. 

The remodel will be pretty extensive. I visited Commercial J's grow op last night as he was harvesting. He grows the same exact cut that I grow, uses the same nutes, and has a little les light/sq ft. BUT, he runs a sealed room with CO2 enrichment. His fucking buds are almost double the size of mine. I want to move up the schedule on getting the new ductless split A/C unit and CO2 enrichment. Part of that involves increasing the cooling airflow to the lights and routing the light intake air from outside the bloom room. Since I will be moving the lights during the remodel, I want to go ahead and do all this ducting and fan work. I learned in building other sealed grows that the more air flow through the lights, the less A/C will be needed to keep the grow cool. And, let's face it, inline fans and ducting are alot cheaper to purchase and maintain than A/C systems. So, what was just going to be a basic tray remodel hase become trays, lights, ducts, and fans. It's really not too big of a job. I think I found a guy to help us get it done. We should be ready for running the tests by the beginning of next month. Actaully, we have to be. In another 2 weeks we'll have about 100 plants ready to go into bloom. The idea is that we do this with the bloom room only half full.


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## mastiffkush (Sep 8, 2011)

I am only on page 8 so far and i love this thread! I am looking forward to the day that i am able join a collective, form my own. Great job, keep up the good work...keep smoking, toking and fuck the feds...they will get what they deserve one day!!


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## mastiffkush (Sep 8, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> I'm so fucking defeated man. It happened again, this response was at least twice as long. I saved it all and lost it when I posted a link in it, and I thought I resaved it but it didn't happen, ,this time it was an error by rollitup. It signed me out, and when I signed back in, instead of posting it, the page was no good and brought me to a blank url, and everything was lost!!!
> 
> God fucking dammit man, I want to help you because I have experience with all of this shit but RIU will not stop bugging up. This is why half of everyone on here is an idiot, all of our good information gets lost! You'll have to forgive me if I submit 10 responses for now on, 1 for each paragraph!! Arrrgghhh, I'm having a little fit over this right now, I need to go burn one. I spent like an hour typing all that out, I had some great links too!
> 
> ...


HAAH...That sucks, it has happened to me so many times...i have tried to leave info on quite a few posts but by the time that i go to the end and about to submit or just halfway through on giving advice it gets deleted. At that time, i cant remember what the hell i just typed or im just to lazy to re type it all...son of a bitch!! Great site with lots of great people with good information, thanks RIU...please fix the bugs! _"Respect..in a Jamaican accent!"_


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## Puanatat (Sep 9, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> The inductive lighting test will be done. When I was getting ready to do it several months ago I get hit by mites and all extra time was spent eradicating, and finally destroying a crop. The we changed from trees to SOG...from coco to rockwool...and from having a full time employee to just my wife and I. The whole idea behind the proposed 4 testing trays is to be able to run tests at a moments notice with no hassle or settup time. When the current harvest is trimmed, cured, and distributed I can begin the bloom room remodel.
> 
> The remodel will be pretty extensive. I visited Commercial J's grow op last night as he was harvesting. He grows the same exact cut that I grow, uses the same nutes, and has a little les light/sq ft. BUT, he runs a sealed room with CO2 enrichment. His fucking buds are almost double the size of mine. I want to move up the schedule on getting the new ductless split A/C unit and CO2 enrichment. Part of that involves increasing the cooling airflow to the lights and routing the light intake air from outside the bloom room. Since I will be moving the lights during the remodel, I want to go ahead and do all this ducting and fan work. I learned in building other sealed grows that the more air flow through the lights, the less A/C will be needed to keep the grow cool. And, let's face it, inline fans and ducting are alot cheaper to purchase and maintain than A/C systems. So, what was just going to be a basic tray remodel hase become trays, lights, ducts, and fans. It's really not too big of a job. I think I found a guy to help us get it done. We should be ready for running the tests by the beginning of next month. Actaully, we have to be. In another 2 weeks we'll have about 100 plants ready to go into bloom. The idea is that we do this with the bloom room only half full.


Yeah, I remeber reading through it, tuff times to say the least - I think moving to your tried and true style was a good business move, even with the somewhat increased legal risk. It all sounds fair enough CG. It's all pretty exciting - I'm not gunna lie. If the re-model is going to be that extensive I can't wait to see how it turns out. Doing it now seems like a great idea, considering half the flowering room will be empty as you mentioned. What sort of approach are you going to take on the logistical side of things? Considering you have half a room, I guess it would be ample working room, but those big plant tables could get in the way idk.


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## Gopedxr (Sep 9, 2011)

Whats up collective how ya been? Check out my video I finally got my tent set up what do you think? Any suggestions thank you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14uAa7lTE8M


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## collective gardener (Sep 9, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Well when I'm deciding when to chop, before my 3 DAY FLUSH I will snip a bud, give her a 2 day dry then smoke a bowl, and I never taste any "chemicals" or even a "hay" smell that ppl talk about.
> 
> I don't know if its the "synthetic organic" or if those are just rumors. And after a nice cure they always taste and smoke good.
> 
> ...


I like the full blown organic soil trip in an outdoor/greenhouse grow. It's just way too messy inside. I just want to see what I can make happen in rockwool. I can not lose any yield. I'm just thinking that with the huge selection of clean organic liquid nutes available these days, we can make something happen. If I can get some biology going in the rockwool...great. If not, we'll just give em the liquid organic nutes and do the best we can. The rockwool is just too clean and easy not to use. It's also the most powerful soiless medium I've ever used. It's as close as I've ever gotten to aero or RDWC growth speeds and size. I just know that within a year or 2, all my dispensary customers are going to be pushing more organic. We just want to be ready. If things stay just like they are, I'll stick with what I'm doing.

I hate to admit this. The AN Connaseur has given me tighter internode spacing and bigger buds in week 3.5 than anything I've used in recent history. Fuck. Plants are showing slight K def. I actually think it's from the explosive growth. I had to pick up a bottle of Big Bud for some more K. I could've used any other K boost, but wanted to be fair to the AN lineup. Next I anticipate seeing some mag def. That will require a bottle of Bud Factor X ($90 retail/liter). Before this thing is done, I'll have the whole fucking lineup. Next AN test will be Sensi Bloom instead of Connaseur (sp?). The Sensi is WAY less expensive. And if I'm going to be using a bunch of additives anyways, might as well try the cheaper stuff. Listen gang, if there was just a slight improvement, I wouldn't even post it. I am NOT a fan of Advanced Nutes. But, to be perfectly fair, I'm very impressed so far. BUT, we have 4+ weeks to go. Then, we'll really know.


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## bighoot55 (Sep 9, 2011)

this is the greatest grow op ever! everytime i read the posts, i learn something new. Thank you so much for sharing your experiance with us... nuff respect!!


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## Gopedxr (Sep 9, 2011)

Were ya able to see the video collective gardener? Any suggeztions tips are welcomed!!


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## collective gardener (Sep 9, 2011)

Gopedxr said:


> Were ya able to see the video collective gardener? Any suggeztions tips are welcomed!!


 
Yes I saw the vid. Looks like a nice little tent grow. I'm not quite sure what to suggest, as the vid doesn't show much. How are the plants doing? Are you having any problems with the grow? Is there something you can do about that ducting hanging out the window? Maybe get a flange, attach the ducting, mount the flange to a small piece of plywood that you affix in the window next to the A/C. That just seems kinda loud to me...as in visually loud...from the street.


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## collective gardener (Sep 10, 2011)

I was going to wait for CO2 until I had the remodel done. After visiting Commercial J's grow op and seeing his example of the same Bubba cut I grow, I've decided to move forward today on the CO2. He just pulled 7 lbs from an 8x8 table lit by 4 1000 watt lights dimmed down to 750 watts. I've never even gotten close to that with 4 1000's over each 8x8 table. So, I just ordered a 24,000 BTU Plug & Grow CO2 burner. I chose the Plug & Grow because they have a 6" ducting attachment to air cool the burner. This is a great feature. The CO2 will be controlled by the Sentinal Fuzzy Logic CO2 controller. These are without question the top of the line CO2 controllers. I also ordered 2 - 21,000 BTU ductless mini split A/C systems. That will give me 42,000 BTU's total cooling. That will be more than enough for 12 - 1000 watt lights and 4 - 600 watt lights...all air cooled hoods with serious airflow. Every 4 lights are cooled by a 740 CFM inline fan. Daisy chaining is limitted to 2 lights per run, negating any real heat buildup in the light closest to the fans. 

To the people who insist that I'm a fool for buying at my local hydro store and not Ebay: I was able to put the CO2 gear (along with some inline fans and ducting) on my account, with the agreement that I don't need to pay a dime on it until my first whole CO2 enriched crop is in and gone. Basically, 90+ days interest free, and I still got 30% off on everything. Yet one more reason I will always patronize my local store. I feel like I have a partner in this business, ready to support us when needed.

We should be up and running the CO2 by wed this coming week. Needless to say, I'm very exited.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 10, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I was going to wait for CO2 until I had the remodel done. After visiting Commercial J's grow op and seeing his example of the same Bubba cut I grow, I've decided to move forward today on the CO2. He just pulled 7 lbs from an 8x8 table lit by 4 1000 watt lights dimmed down to 750 watts. I've never even gotten close to that with 4 1000's over each 8x8 table. So, I just ordered a 24,000 BTU Plug & Grow CO2 burner. I chose the Plug & Grow because they have a 6" ducting attachment to air cool the burner. This is a great feature. The CO2 will be controlled by the Sentinal Fuzzy Logic CO2 controller. These are without question the top of the line CO2 controllers. I also ordered 2 - 21,000 BTU ductless mini split A/C systems. That will give me 42,000 BTU's total cooling. That will be more than enough for 12 - 1000 watt lights and 4 - 600 watt lights...all air cooled hoods with serious airflow. Every 4 lights are cooled by a 740 CFM inline fan. Daisy chaining is limitted to 2 lights per run, negating any real heat buildup in the light closest to the fans.
> 
> To the people who insist that I'm a fool for buying at my local hydro store and not Ebay: I was able to put the CO2 gear (along with some inline fans and ducting) on my account, with the agreement that I don't need to pay a dime on it until my first whole CO2 enriched crop is in and gone. Basically, 90+ days interest free, and I still got 30% off on everything. Yet one more reason I will always patronize my local store. I feel like I have a partner in this business, ready to support us when needed.
> 
> We should be up and running the CO2 by wed this coming week. Needless to say, I'm very exited.


Very nice CG. I'm with you on buying local, I've got an arrangement with one of the places nearby. They give me 20-25% off depending on the volume of the purchase and give me all kinds of crap to try out/demo (don't think Ebay does that . It's nice, especially if you ever have issues with any equipment because you get it replaced or refunded on the spot. No suspect deliveries to worry about, etc.. I was actually gifted all of my co2 tanks, just had to buy the reg's and stuff. 

Just yesterday I was talking to my guy about ordering new digital ballasts and bulbs and he let me take a bulb home to test with my light meter. That's service, and it's worth an extra nickel to me.


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## KocfOwned (Sep 10, 2011)

what cut of bubba do you run? and where can i get it bro


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 10, 2011)

KocfOwned said:


> what cut of bubba do you run? and where can i get it bro


Good luck with that...


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## KocfOwned (Sep 10, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Good luck with that...


 is there a reason you always seem to have a attitude? it was a general question if he doesn;t want to tell me thats fine.


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## Gopedxr (Sep 10, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Yes I saw the vid. Looks like a nice little tent grow. I'm not quite sure what to suggest, as the vid doesn't show much. How are the plants doing? Are you having any problems with the grow? Is there something you can do about that ducting hanging out the window? Maybe get a flange, attach the ducting, mount the flange to a small piece of plywood that you affix in the window next to the A/C. That just seems kinda loud to me...as in visually loud...from the street.


 Thanks for the help! The set up is only a week old. So far so green! Going to get more plants soon! I want another veg room badly haha!!


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## TheLastWood (Sep 10, 2011)

Gardener your only gonna run 1000ppm? What does commercial J run? 

I have a 20# co2 tank, reg, and cap co2/hunid/temp/exhaust controller.

Its sad cuz I'm not even using it anymore. I need to hooke her back up but its such a pain in the ass to refill every 2-3 weeks. And if u run perpetual then good luck cutting co2 to your plants that are finishing while still supplying the other plants.

To operate a fully sealed, perpetual co2 grow its gotta be setup like a damn space station. 

Obviously the most efficient way is to exhause your co2 from room to room and then out, but the easiest way is a tank in each room.


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## collective gardener (Sep 10, 2011)

KocfOwned said:


> what cut of bubba do you run? and where can i get it bro


Wolverine is right. It's not attitude, bud. He just knows what it takes to get a pheno like this one. It's one of those true "clone only" phenos that get either get passed from firend to friend, or sold for prices that would probably make you choke. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't let a live cut leave the grow. It was given to me with that understanding. There were other condiions, as well. 

If you don't know anyone with a prized cut, the only thing to do is either buy hundreds of cuts from dirreferent sources, in the hope that one is something (or even 1000). Or, go with a seed strain and grow out several hundred (or 1000), looking for that special lady. That's the original process that someone had to go through to get our pheno. You can see that after going through all that, they're not going to be selling cuts for $20/ea. All I can say is that if you're running an op of significant size, and plan on growing for a long while, it's worth whatever it takes to get your hands on the best strains possible. That's why many commercial growers have no problem forking over several thousand $$$'s for the right cut. Unfortunately, most seeds sold are not stable at all, and almost all cuts sold are not of the true AAA quality. The only really nice cuts I've ever seen sold to the public were from Oaksterdam...and they don't sell them to the public anumore. Just yesterday I samples some G Dawg from an Oaksterdam cut obtained several months ago, and it was fucking terrific. Of course, like most world class phenos, it was a shitty yielder. A 36" tall topped plant yielded less than an ounce!


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## collective gardener (Sep 10, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Gardener your only gonna run 1000ppm? What does commercial J run?
> 
> I have a 20# co2 tank, reg, and cap co2/hunid/temp/exhaust controller.
> 
> ...



Wood,

Just got off the phone with Commercial J. He runs 900ppm - 1000ppm, with a 100ppm deadband. As far as reducing CO2 at end of cycle, he just reduces it to 500ppm the last week. He didn't think it would be much a problem with my perpetual running less than 1000 all the way through. I've never ran CO2 on a perpetual before, but he has. According to him, the problem with too much CO2 end cycle is more when you're running 1500ppm.

I've tested 1500ppm vs 1000 vs 700 vs 500. There was no dicernable difference in growth speed or yield between 1000 and 1500ppm. There was some yield reduction going to 700ppm...and a little more at 500. Interesting enough, the biggest difference is between 300 (ambiant) and 500ppm. That 200ppm increase did far more for the yield and growth speed than from 500 to 1000. I believe alot of the potential increase has to do with how the rest of the system is being ran. A fine tuned aeroponic settup will probably see good growth increases right up to the 1500ppm max. A soil grow in average sized containers will probably max out around 500ppm. It just goes back to "you're only as strong as your weakest link". Light is obviously a major factor. Clearly, 70 watts/sq ft can take advantage of very high CO2 levels. 40 watts/sq ft can probably only utilize the addtional CO2 up until the light becomes the limitting factor. 

Given that we run 62 watts/sq ft, and grow in rockwool (what I would consider a fairly "powerful" growing medium), I feel that 750-1000 ppm will be a nice balance between strong growth, and not overloading finishing plants. But...like all new grows...we won't know until we fire that fucker up and start jamming the gas down their throats. 

Whatever we do, I fully intend to stay on a 20 day schedule. Since we have 3 - 8x8 trays, we harvest 1 tray every 20 days. This schedule is very comfortable for us. There's no way I want to be stuck trimming all three trays at once. Even with a mountain of people, it would take way too long. My plant count also stays lower with the 20 day schedule. With a batch schedule, you end up with double the amount of plants that fit in the bloom room for more than half the time (5 weeks out of every 8 weeks). I need to do whatever it takes to remain on the 20 day harvest schedule. If it means only running 500ppm CO2 to avoid problems with ripening plants, then that's what we'll do. 

The remodel begins Tuesday. There's currently about 60 plants in the bloom room that we have to work around. But, hell...that's better than 200!


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 10, 2011)

KocfOwned said:


> is there a reason you always seem to have a attitude? it was a general question if he doesn;t want to tell me thats fine.


I'm just realistic.


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## C.Indica (Sep 10, 2011)

Good luck on the Co2 program CG,
I love your mom & pop attitude.

Tell me if this is more of a pain that a benefit;
Could you partition off a 10x10 room inside your flower room, for just the plants on day 40-60?
That way you could give them 500ppm, and keep all other growth in the 1000 range.

But this would probably be a matter of inefficiency, knowing you.
Just thoughts


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## TheLastWood (Sep 10, 2011)

The problem with that is you need, seperate ac, seperate exhaust (ducting and fans), more moving around of plants.

If I ever had to start over from scratch, and was doing a commercial op, and had lots of room and money it would be one thing, but I am happy with my current setup.

Its much easier to plan ahead and build it the right way from the begining than tranforming your op to conform to efficient co2 usage.

If you have no problem w/ ripening running a constant 700ppm then that's the best way, but if your trying to max out and then ween them off, the best way is to build a series of rooms, with the exhaust from each room dumping into the next room, in each room, there is less co2, and every 2 weeks you rotate the plants. This way ur only using 1 co2 tank/burner and its not running 24/7 and you have seperate rooms with seperate ppms.

Its such a hassle having 2 exhausts, one for lights and 1 for temp control, but with your ac units you will be alright, 

Gardener do you have a natural gas hookup or propane hookup in ur warehouse?

That would be cool, I've seen one thread on here were a tankless water heater was turned into a co2 burner and plumbed into the house.


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## collective gardener (Sep 11, 2011)

If the 700ppm becomes a problem ripening, I'll add a ripening room. Since not alot of light is needed for ripening I could just run 4 - 600's in big reflectors. This would also increase my total bloom space. We have plenty of room in the warehouse to do so. Truth be told, I'm not too worried about some CO2 during ripening. What exactly is everyone's concern with high CO2 ripening? Is it poor trichome developement?

We do have natural gas in the warehouse. Unfortunately, the gas company would need to come out for the in initial line purge and fire up. Well, that ain't gonna happen. Just one more thing I should have done when we first moved in. So, I'll be getting a couple very large propane tanks. 

On another note, I scored a very nice G-Dawg cut tonight (Star Dawg x G-13). I believe Star Dawg is Chem Dawg X Afgahni x Chem #4. Anyways, this cut is a really nice pheno. The guy gave me a few grams with the cuts so I could see what I'd be growing. The bag appeal rates a solid 9.5. It's not a super powerful high, but the bag appeal and the aroma make it a sure fire hit at the dispensaries.

It seems like the quality of the high is becoming second to bag appeal and scent these days. Our Bubba doesn't have a ton of bag appeal, and a good yet mild smell. It took me some time and several free samples given before the dispensaries realized just how good it was. Fortunately, the high is extremely powerful...almost too much sometimes. This keeps the patients coming back and specifically requesting our Pre-98 pheno. 

I think this G-Dawg could be a hit. It was given to me by Commercial C (don't think I've mentioned him). Him and his partner bought the entire Oaksterdam clone selection when they were selling to the public. According to Commercial C, the G-Dawg was the best of the lot, and, you guessed it, the smallest yielder! They gave me the cuts to see what kind of yield I could get out of it. These guys have a nice 15k grow op, and have always turned out real quality smoke. But, they've been having a hard time getting a decent yield. I'll play with the strain a bit to see if I can make something better happen, and then show them what to do. They're in their early 20's and don't have the patience to methodically try several tactics for improving the yield of a given strain. I was the exact same way when I was that age. They are good kids and I'm happy to help them out...especially since I scored a very nice new strain out of the deal. Anyone out there have experience with this strain?


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## C.Indica (Sep 11, 2011)

What do you mean by don't have the patience to try out new tactics?
That's the whole point of growing this stuff.


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## TheLastWood (Sep 11, 2011)

Honestly gardener, I ran my co2 till the end, only recently I heard that it can hinder ripening. I can't remember the exact "scientific reasoning" behind it, but its a very well known/believed theory.

apparantly ripening fruits/plants put off co2, and a high ambient co2 level interferes. Ripening is actualy a form of fermentation aka alchohol production. 

Yes, your plants do create alchohol, no you can not get drunk from them.

From google:

The least understood component of fruit ripening, is carbon dioxide. (CO2 We have seen CO2 at as high as 10%, in ripening rooms set to 67-degrees-F.* We are amazed that there has never been a reported incident of ripener CO2 asphyxiation, maybe it has happened, and no one knows why&#8230;maybe not.

When CO2 is at 10%, oxygen is at 11%&#8230;you cannot light a match in that ripening room, there is not enough oxygen to support the flame The question for ripeners is:* do high CO2 levels affect the ripening process?* The answer is: Yes, they do Respiration, or ripening, can be shown in a word equation:* glucose + oxygen -» carbon dioxide + water. (C 6 H 12 O 6 +6O 2 &#8594; 6CO 2 +6H 2 O)

what level of CO2 does it start to affect the ripening process?* Many say that 1% is the level at which to control Another question: is ripening faster better? If you want to hold back bananas, either green or yellow set your temperatures for 56F fruit, and y0ur CO2 control t0 3%.* (If CO2 gets much higher, off-tastes can be developed, and a grayish &#8220;false chill&#8221; can occur. The fruit will not make any more CO2, so you have stopped the ripening process


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## collective gardener (Sep 11, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> www.discounthydroponicsupplies.com.au complete tent setups $550 plus shipping. you get a 400watt hps powerplant bulb, jb 400w ballast, cooltube, carbon filter, fans, 6metres silver ducting and a indoor elements mylar grow tent. dimensions ( in metres ): 1.2h x 0.9w x 0.5d. it is an australian site, but they ship overseas with pretty reasonable prices. super discreet also.


 
Need I list all the things wrong with this post? Wrong place, my man. So, is this your website? A friends? I think I've made my feelings on mail ordering hydro gear quite clear. I have similar feelings for spam posts...which this cleary is, my friend. Please remove it from this thread. It's clogging up traffic.


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## collective gardener (Sep 11, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> What do you mean by don't have the patience to try out new tactics?
> That's the whole point of growing this stuff.


 
Well, that's SOME people's reason for growing the stuff. Actually, their original reason was to have all the weed they could smoke. They were comitted to smoking it all, too. Well, 2 lights became 4, and a garage grow became a warehouse...and a 4 light show became a 15 light show. These guys are great. They are just having fun all the way to the bank. They don't make alot of $$$, but their coists are covered and their bills are paid. They ended up with a show this big on accident. Now, I'm just helping them keep the beast under control without spoiling their fun. They may wake up tomorrow and decide to kief out the entire crop. Ah...to be young again.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 11, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> If the 700ppm becomes a problem ripening, I'll add a ripening room. Since not alot of light is needed for ripening I could just run 4 - 600's in big reflectors. This would also increase my total bloom space. We have plenty of room in the warehouse to do so. Truth be told, I'm not too worried about some CO2 during ripening. What exactly is everyone's concern with high CO2 ripening? Is it poor trichome developement?
> 
> We do have natural gas in the warehouse. Unfortunately, the gas company would need to come out for the in initial line purge and fire up. Well, that ain't gonna happen. Just one more thing I should have done when we first moved in. So, I'll be getting a couple very large propane tanks.
> 
> ...


Excessive co2 inhibits ethylene production in plants, which is the ripening hormone. I try to back my levels down to around 500ppm during the final three weeks. I also don't really recommend running higher than 1000ppm throughout bloom phase at all, because the plants develop a reliance on it and any sudden drops to ambient levels will virtually halt growth.


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## collective gardener (Sep 11, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Honestly gardener, I ran my co2 till the end, only recently I heard that it can hinder ripening. I can't remember the exact "scientific reasoning" behind it, but its a very well known/believed theory.
> 
> apparantly ripening fruits/plants put off co2, and a high ambient co2 level interferes. Ripening is actualy a form of fermentation aka alchohol production.
> 
> ...


This seems to apply to fruit off the vine. Anyone have any good data on cannabis ripening on the vine with CO2 enrichment? Not that it really matters. I'm moving ahead with reckless abandon. I'll find out soon enough if there's a negative effect on the ripening process. I have a feeling that there won't be. Plants have the amazing ability to just "not use" whatever is in too much concentration...to a point. As I said, I'm not a fan of maxing out anything in the grow op. I keep my nute ppm under 1300ppm...usually 1000ppm. I like the CO2 at 700ppm - 1000ppm. However, the effect on the plant is very strain dependant. I'll play with the CO2 concentrations to find the sweet spot. I've also found that plants get "addicted" to CO2 enrichment. One more reason to keep levels reasonable.


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## MrEDuck (Sep 11, 2011)

I can run a lit search tomorrow to see if I can find anything about CO2 and ripening in cannabis plants. Hopefully someone in a medical state has done some research on the topic. Now I'm thinking how awesome it would be to get a grant to grow.


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## TheLastWood (Sep 11, 2011)

Yeah the addiction to the co2 is the main reason I stopped using it. Well it goes hand in hand with it being a pain in the ass to refill the tank all the time. When the plants are addicted and your tank runs out u gotta go, doesn't matter if you had a long day at work.


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## collective gardener (Sep 11, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Yeah the addiction to the co2 is the main reason I stopped using it. Well it goes hand in hand with it being a pain in the ass to refill the tank all the time. When the plants are addicted and your tank runs out u gotta go, doesn't matter if you had a long day at work.


 
Wolverine and Wood,

I, too, am all to familiar with CO2 addiction. This is why I am opposed to running CO2 in anything but a totally sealed grow room with state of the art CO2 monnitoring and controls. It's another reason why I wanted to wait until the rest of the grow was totally dialed in before starting with the CO2. In past grows I've shut down the CO2 for a week or so to move walls, expand, etc...Back then I was running 1500ppm (23 years old..."max out EVERYTHING!!!") When the CO2 stopped, so did the whole crop. I saw 99 plants just sit there for 10 days while we expanded the grow. This was pre internet, so I didn't know what was going on. In time I figured it out. That's when I ran tests to determine where the diminishing returns curve was in relation to ppm.

I wouldn't be suprised if the CO2 in my room is 50 ppm or so below the levels outside. I have a buttload of incoming air, but it's never enough. I'm betting on huge increases by just bringing it up to 500ppm while I get the A/C installed and running. I'm totally stoked about this. This is the year we out-grow Commercial J light for light. If I can do that, it will be the first time in over 10 years of dueling grow rooms. He's running 600's in his warehouse grow and 1000's dimmed to 750 in his home grow. This, I hope, will be his downfall. He's also still burning Hortis, while we burn Digilux's. Then, there's the all too dangerous topic of me trying Advanced Nutrients. I don't even want to go there right now. My wife even noticed today while she watered how tight the node spacing is on this run. FUCK.....again.


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## [email protected] (Sep 12, 2011)

many apologies gardener. post removed. but i used that site to purchase that tent setup. was simply recommend it to the gentleman that requested info. no offence intended.


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## collective gardener (Sep 12, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> many apologies gardener. post removed. but i used that site to purchase that tent setup. was simply recommend it to the gentleman that requested info. no offence intended.


Oh shit. It is I who apologize. I didn't see the post where someone was asking questions about where to get the tent. Now I feel like a dick. Very sorry. I thought it was just a random post saying "check this place out".


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## collective gardener (Sep 13, 2011)

I started on the new electrical sub panel for the new A/C unit. While doing this I discovered some fuck ups Helper D made while wiring up the existing sub panels. I was very specific on wire sizing, and he somehow got it wrong. I have a massive under voltage at my lighting sub panels. I worked on it till 11:30 tonight just to get things safe. It needs another 10 hrs work to get it 100% right. I'm pissed, but glad I discovered it before I burned the place down, or started cooking ballasts. 

I decided to oversize the A/C sub panel to give me another 80 amps in the bloom room. I'm thinking some extra lighting. Maybe some induction lights in between the HPS's. It would all be down the road, but having the power in place gives me some options. The new A/C is a 19 seer, meaning it's extremely efficient. I'm not anticipating too much an increase in the power bill. In fact, I qualify for a rebate from the power company! My new total A/C BTU's will be 64,000! Finally, I'll have complete environmental control. I'll be able to crank the temp down to whatever I want. Commercial J runs these A/C units. They dehumidify so well that he has to use a humidifier to bring the RH up to 40%. The unit also has a "dehumidify only" setting that can be used at night. I've ran some nice grow ops before, but this will be the best one. 

It seems like many newer growers get all exited about nutrients, aero systems, LED's, and the like. I get exited about perfect atmosphere. With perfect temp, RH, and CO2, anything is possible. Can you imagine growing a purple strain and being able to crank down the night time temps to 55 degrees? That shit would turn black! The best thing is that the big clunky units are on the roof. The only thing in the room are 2 small wall mounted fan coils. 

I'm probably sleep deprived and a little spacey. It could've been those 3 Tahoe OG kief hits I took before driving home. I need a new helper.


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## Puanatat (Sep 13, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I started on the new electrical sub panel for the new A/C unit. While doing this I discovered some fuck ups Helper D made while wiring up the existing sub panels. I was very specific on wire sizing, and he somehow got it wrong. I have a massive under voltage at my lighting sub panels. I worked on it till 11:30 tonight just to get things safe. It needs another 10 hrs work to get it 100% right. I'm pissed, but glad I discovered it before I burned the place down, or started cooking ballasts.
> 
> I decided to oversize the A/C sub panel to give me another 80 amps in the bloom room. I'm thinking some extra lighting. Maybe some induction lights in between the HPS's. It would all be down the road, but having the power in place gives me some options. The new A/C is a 19 seer, meaning it's extremely efficient. I'm not anticipating too much an increase in the power bill. In fact, I qualify for a rebate from the power company! My new total A/C BTU's will be 64,000! Finally, I'll have complete environmental control. I'll be able to crank the temp down to whatever I want. Commercial J runs these A/C units. They dehumidify so well that he has to use a humidifier to bring the RH up to 40%. The unit also has a "dehumidify only" setting that can be used at night. I've ran some nice grow ops before, but this will be the best one.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear you're ontop of everything. I've been thinking about putting a few smoke detectors and things in my cabinet for quite some time. Maybe even hook it up to one of those car alarm circuits that messages you when your alarm goes off. It wouldn't be too hard. Do you have many safety devices (eg smoke detectors) in place? And I thought you were going to mount the AC unit (compressors and what not) inside the factory but outside the grow room - to avoid suspicion?


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## asublimeutopia (Sep 13, 2011)

O my word, I just finished reading 152 pages of documented gloriousness! Took me most of last night while watchin meet the parents and today at work. I truly enjoyed your professional and scientific style of documentation and explanations CG. I truly appreciate someone who is trying to grow quantity for many needy people but is unwilling to sacrifice quality while doing it. Even though never plan on growing something to this scale your setup and habits are so refined that even someone growing one plant could benefit from your example of attention to detail. Thank you much for keeping up with this I will most definitely continue reading and I am excited to see how your remodeling efforts turn out. I can't grow (or smoke : (... ) right now cuz I'm in the military but I constantly try to learn from others so when my enlistment is up in 2013 I can jump back into hobby growing some tasty dank for me and my wife. Thanks for the inspiration and lessons, keep it up brotha! Peace from Iraq!!!


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 13, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I started on the new electrical sub panel for the new A/C unit. While doing this I discovered some fuck ups Helper D made while wiring up the existing sub panels. I was very specific on wire sizing, and he somehow got it wrong. I have a massive under voltage at my lighting sub panels. I worked on it till 11:30 tonight just to get things safe. It needs another 10 hrs work to get it 100% right. I'm pissed, but glad I discovered it before I burned the place down, or started cooking ballasts.
> 
> I decided to oversize the A/C sub panel to give me another 80 amps in the bloom room. I'm thinking some extra lighting. Maybe some induction lights in between the HPS's. It would all be down the road, but having the power in place gives me some options. The new A/C is a 19 seer, meaning it's extremely efficient. I'm not anticipating too much an increase in the power bill. In fact, I qualify for a rebate from the power company! My new total A/C BTU's will be 64,000! Finally, I'll have complete environmental control. I'll be able to crank the temp down to whatever I want. Commercial J runs these A/C units. They dehumidify so well that he has to use a humidifier to bring the RH up to 40%. The unit also has a "dehumidify only" setting that can be used at night. I've ran some nice grow ops before, but this will be the best one.
> 
> ...


Nice CG, if you do end up running the Casey Jones you'll love how she turns out with temperature/humidity in the ideal range. That's the one thing I think I forgot to mention about that strain in particular; she's very temperature sensitive. If you run anywhere in the 80's, even with co2 she gets a little fluffy. Keep those temps in the 70's and she spits out some beautiful crystallized nuggets reeking of mentholated roadkill. Mmmmm, drivin that train...


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## TheLastWood (Sep 13, 2011)

If u don't wanna answer its cool gardener, but for informational purposes, how much $ do various positions pay? Like ur full time helper (ex helper d's job) or just a trimmer? Most of your trimmings done by collective members I'm sure.

Just wondering if you could live off being just a 20k watt op helper.

For me, ird be just like anything, the experience gained being the most valuable thing

I framed houses for 5 years then decided I missed being a laborer so much I switched to electircal (actually it was thr rconomy I hate bein a laborer) 2 years ago, I'm already running guys at my job. Eye lurn fast


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## rzza (Sep 13, 2011)

CG, would you mind if I pick your brain? Im having an incredible problem that started when I moved my operation to a new location, I was hoping you would be willing to help dissect my situation and determine the problem. If you dont want to its no biggie...


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## collective gardener (Sep 13, 2011)

Puanatat said:


> Glad to hear you're ontop of everything. I've been thinking about putting a few smoke detectors and things in my cabinet for quite some time. Maybe even hook it up to one of those car alarm circuits that messages you when your alarm goes off. It wouldn't be too hard. Do you have many safety devices (eg smoke detectors) in place? And I thought you were going to mount the AC unit (compressors and what not) inside the factory but outside the grow room - to avoid suspicion?


 
I really wanted to keep any equipment off of the roof. But, there's just no way to do that. These A/C units just generate way too much heat. They're going on the roof. Commercial J has one on the roof and he's in the same complex as I am. It's where the thing should be installed. I'm getting less and less fearful as we spend more time in this location. My neighbors love us. I give business to most of them. Commercial J has been in the complex for over 3 years without a hitch. So, a unit on the roof doesn't cause me the concern it did several months ago.


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## mellokitty (Sep 13, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I need a new helper.


i wear high heels around the Room..... just sayin'


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## collective gardener (Sep 13, 2011)

asublimeutopia said:


> O my word, I just finished reading 152 pages of documented gloriousness! Took me most of last night while watchin meet the parents and today at work. I truly enjoyed your professional and scientific style of documentation and explanations CG. I truly appreciate someone who is trying to grow quantity for many needy people but is unwilling to sacrifice quality while doing it. Even though never plan on growing something to this scale your setup and habits are so refined that even someone growing one plant could benefit from your example of attention to detail. Thank you much for keeping up with this I will most definitely continue reading and I am excited to see how your remodeling efforts turn out. I can't grow (or smoke : (... ) right now cuz I'm in the military but I constantly try to learn from others so when my enlistment is up in 2013 I can jump back into hobby growing some tasty dank for me and my wife. Thanks for the inspiration and lessons, keep it up brotha! Peace from Iraq!!!


 
Thanks for the kind words. I can't believe my grow is being seen in Iraq! We all look forward to having you guys back home...safe and sound. . Until then, be careful out there.

What kind of grow are you thinking about when you get back? If you're in So Cal, give me a shout and I'll get you a start up package.


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## asublimeutopia (Sep 13, 2011)

Most surely my friend, I appreciate the generous offer thank you. Thanks for the kind wishes man I should be back within a month, THANK GOD!!! lol i miss my wife and a good shower. I hope to finish up college in a medi state to lessen the stress of my paranoid wife around plants, shes a die hard stoner but over analyzes most everything including legal repercussions of growing in non mmj states. (its ironic considering how enthusiastic she was of me and my friend havin plants all over our apartment when we met lol). Its good to keep me in check but frustrating lol I blame the laws not her...I would like to have 4-6 different strains in a rotating perpetual crop harvesting a plant every two weeks or so...so I would probably only have 12-15 plants total depending on what state we're in and if we can both get medi cards. If we have room and rent a house I will probably frame up a small veg and bloom room in the basement otherwise I might get stuck using a tent in an extra bedroom...either way probably a 600 or 1000 watt hps, depending on plant numbers, for blooming. I popped my green cherry a few years ago with a tent, some awesome strawberry cough clones (my buddy still has), and a two bedroom apartment with my best friend before i joined the military. Ironically my wife was the person who leased us the apartment...thats where we met. She still makes fun of me for lookin at the apartment in a Bob Marley shirt with eyes half open. I walked into the back laundry room that had no windows, a drain, and outlets. I just went yeah...this should work lol. I was young and not paranoid enough but shes my favorite stoner in the world and we became friends smoking and chilling, shit took off and I haven't looked back. Sorry I ramble, I really enjoy your op and how you share your years of experience with everyone. I love RIU man I can safely still observe and learn about my favorite hobby/passion without fear of judgement by my work peers. They all know I'm a stoner at heart...I can't hide it lol. All those claims of your short term memory returning are either bunk or my memory just naturally sucks...either way I claim to have a THC drip in my brainstem that I stocked up so much when I smoked that it slowly releases green-ness keeps me sane in the midst of the uniformed life. Man I'm glad I shook up my life and grew up but I'll tell you what, sometimes I just need to face a bong o' DANK!!! Peace man, keep it up make us proud.


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## collective gardener (Sep 14, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> If u don't wanna answer its cool gardener, but for informational purposes, how much $ do various positions pay? Like ur full time helper (ex helper d's job) or just a trimmer? Most of your trimmings done by collective members I'm sure.
> 
> Just wondering if you could live off being just a 20k watt op helper.
> 
> ...


I paid Helper D $3,000/month salary. He had to be at the grow 7 days/week. In 6 months I covered him about 5 times. There was alot more work in the beginning. Today, a helper would only need to put in about 3 hrs/day + trimming time.

I pay trimmers $15 - $20 per hour depending on how fast they are. I have a couple people that trim for buds. I like them. Trimming is my single biggest expense. It ends up costing around $300/pound. My wife does the quality control on the trim and she's very picky. All the buds go by her before they go into the drying shack. She can spot any little blemish and sends it back. Time/$$$ spent trimming is well worth it. I've had several compliments on our trim. Bag appeal is such a big deal these days that good trimming isn't good enough. It really has to be great trimming. There are strains, however, that are ultra easy to trim. I grew some Vortex for head stash. That shit took about 3 swipes with the shears and it was done.


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## TheLastWood (Sep 14, 2011)

Just pulled down 2 cataract kush (la conf. X og kush) and its like that. I dig in and get the few fan leaves deep as ic an but the buds are so swollen and tight against each other it would run the buds to get most of em. 

Fastest trim ever.

3k a month is awesome. I know its moree expensive to live in cali but that's sitll good.


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## Hiigh (Sep 14, 2011)

Sound's like you've got everything down to a t, how often are you harvesting?


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## collective gardener (Sep 14, 2011)

Hiigh said:


> Sound's like you've got everything down to a t, how often are you harvesting?


Right now it's all over the place. We're still recovering from the mites and going to small plants. I'm slowly working the crop schedule to a 20 day program. Since the bloom room basically holds 3 - 8x8 trays, I figured on harvesting one tray every 20 days. 

I'll run this perpetual for a while longer. I still have a few mites, and can't get every single one running a perpetual. If I can't get them some way, I may just have to move to a batch system that will allow us to clean 100% between harvests.


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## Jozikins (Sep 14, 2011)

Wow dude, I'm still so sorry Helper D did you wrong. 3k a month is a very generous wage for any garden attendant of any sort. A whole lot better than what I got paid at a very similar operation to yours, but they weren't nearly as clean. Some days I would work from 9am to 9pm cleaning the entire operation of everything the other shitty helpers left behind. It was like cleaning up after your kids, you clean, you walk away, and the toys they were just playing with are all over the floor again. These kids were dirty, my boss was paying for them to grow out a house and kicked them out after he told them to clean up 3 times and they didn't. That house was disgusting, one of those fuckers were so dirty he brought in this strange strain of ringworm once and I was out of work for a month, while he kept it a secret and gave it to our sick patients. Fucking dirty mother fucker. That house is one of the reasons I agree with you that all grow rooms require pictures upon making a deal with a dispensary. I would be proud to show mine, pristine and white, me and your wife have the same fondness for bleach as well. 

And we weren't paid shit for trimming, we weren't even offered that, just hash or buds. I had so much bud though I was vending it to them, because they only had 3 strains that could compete with me. They had a lot of different strains in that warehouse too. Too many varieties to do a good job on them all. But I do a real good job on trimming, and some of the other guys did a real shitty job but got all the same benefits as the rest of us...

Helper D didn't know how good he had it man, you and your wife are clearly good people with generous hearts. I wish I could do my part in supporting you guys in what you do. If you ever need to get rid of meds (I know you always are trying to get free meds to sick people) I suggest ABC in Huntington Beach/Westminster area (forget exactly where) they are a collective ran (not operated) by the deaf. The owner seems like a real genuine person. They could use a little bit of edge, and free pre98 for the terminally ill would help them maintain that compassionate value they uphold. If you'd like I can have a sit with them sometime this week and talk about it. 

I can be pretty picky as a vendor, and look only for legitimate store fronts to work with. Sometimes delivery services too. Delivery Services are the most inclined to give away free medicine to the ill I have found out. After working in a warehouse operation which I suspected to be shady after I left, I am only looking for good people to work with. That warehouse owner still owes me almost a qp of hash for 5 lbs of trim I gave him, we were going to split the end product, but now I want the whole hp after being ripped off. He also owes me 300 bucks. He had the nerve to ask one of my old co workers and before that grow partner if he wanted to run the new valley operation, he asked him after he burned all of us btw. Haha, my friend told him exactly what me or you would, that he's going to get his ass beat next time he is seen.

I know you wouldn't, I know you are really good about keeping your head down... but arggghhhh. It isn't even the qp of hash or the 300 bucks, I could piss 300 bucks and a qp of hash is almost free for me in my book, it is just the fact that I gave this guy exclusive seeds and clones that don't exist anymore, worked my ass off, and even lived on my buddies dirty ass cheesy carpet for a few weeks before I got a bed out there so I could help him out, and he burns me in the end. I was even going to set up some more operations with this guy, I'm glad I didn't. But I live in paradise, and I moved out to the dirtiest, most dangerous part of the desert to work with him. I was actually going to be put in charge of the warehouse before I left, but then I found out that he was scared of another raid... fucking fucker.


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## collective gardener (Sep 14, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> Wow dude, I'm still so sorry Helper D did you wrong. 3k a month is a very generous wage for any garden attendant of any sort. A whole lot better than what I got paid at a very similar operation to yours, but they weren't nearly as clean. Some days I would work from 9am to 9pm cleaning the entire operation of everything the other shitty helpers left behind. It was like cleaning up after your kids, you clean, you walk away, and the toys they were just playing with are all over the floor again. These kids were dirty, my boss was paying for them to grow out a house and kicked them out after he told them to clean up 3 times and they didn't. That house was disgusting, one of those fuckers were so dirty he brought in this strange strain of ringworm once and I was out of work for a month, while he kept it a secret and gave it to our sick patients. Fucking dirty mother fucker. That house is one of the reasons I agree with you that all grow rooms require pictures upon making a deal with a dispensary. I would be proud to show mine, pristine and white, me and your wife have the same fondness for bleach as well.
> 
> And we weren't paid shit for trimming, we weren't even offered that, just hash or buds. I had so much bud though I was vending it to them, because they only had 3 strains that could compete with me. They had a lot of different strains in that warehouse too. Too many varieties to do a good job on them all. But I do a real good job on trimming, and some of the other guys did a real shitty job but got all the same benefits as the rest of us...
> 
> ...


 
Goddamn! That sounds like a real nightmare op. Ringworm? Holy fuck. 

I would be interested in maybe talking with the deaf collective. I just need total assurance that the meds won't just be sold with the rest. I'm not sure how this assurance can be made, but am open to a discussion.

Question...you figure 1/2 pound of bubble hash for every 5 lbs of trim? I'm asking cause I don't know. Any hash I've made has been mainly for fun. However, one of the places I deal with wants bubble hash from the Bubba trim. What's a good vendor price for such? What microm screens are acceptable? Let me know. I have a buttload of dried trim I need to get started on.


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## Joedank (Sep 14, 2011)

i get about 1-1 1/2 oz per lbs of trim i only run 3 bags the work the u73 the u93 super melty! it is bought as soon as it is made at around 8-10$ per gram depending on strain ,,,
oh and i run 1000ppm of co2 and biobizz/ ageold organics @ 900 ppm with silica and horticulural epsom salts


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## Jozikins (Sep 15, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Goddamn! That sounds like a real nightmare op. Ringworm? Holy fuck.
> 
> I would be interested in maybe talking with the deaf collective. I just need total assurance that the meds won't just be sold with the rest. I'm not sure how this assurance can be made, but am open to a discussion.
> 
> Question...you figure 1/2 pound of bubble hash for every 5 lbs of trim? I'm asking cause I don't know. Any hash I've made has been mainly for fun. However, one of the places I deal with wants bubble hash from the Bubba trim. What's a good vendor price for such? What microm screens are acceptable? Let me know. I have a buttload of dried trim I need to get started on.


I usually look forward to a 10% return on my hash. So if I process 10lbs (good god) I should end up with 1lb of hash, 1lb of hash looks really sexy. I don't know too much about vending the hash myself, when I produce hash it's usually for myself. But dispensaries want the good shit, anything between 120-45 micron is acceptable, but what gets you respect is 90-73 micron. I recommend cooking with the 160, 120, and 45 micron hash. This also depends on how many bags you are usingThat is with the bubble method though. I use a 5 bag but I would prefer 8. Some people that are producing mass amounts prefer to use 3 bags. It's all up to you. doublejj made a pretty awesome thread last year, he did a balls-to-the-wall bubble hash set up.

I would assume a fair price for hash is the price of weed on the consumer end. Makes sense to me, people charge a lot for hash but for good reason, hash can be very labor intensive unless you know some neat tricks, it can also take a few tries to get hash just right, a failed or moldy batch of hash is devastating. I will contact the deaf collective for you next time I am out in that area, probably tomorrow if I have my way. I would assume the best way to find out is to keep in contact and drop in for a visit, or have someone else drop in for a visit. A powerful incentive is this generous and _priceless_ opportunity you are giving them, anyone should be able to see the value in this, but you can put it into perspective for them. The better reputation they have, the less trouble they have, the more positive light they shine, the more people will do business. Alternatively, you can make it help them still make donations, and reach out to the disabled community and war vets. I suggest disabled, terminally ill, and vets will get double their donation in medicine, if they donate for a gram, they get another of the bubba, with a half gram minimum and a leniency policy on the terminally ill. This is still very generous, and definitely helping people afford their medicine. Now medicine for a week is medicine for 2 weeks. 

But yeah man, the old operation was bullshit, me and my buddy were the only competent growers besides the owner, he was the head farmer but he was never there, and he didn't even know as much as we did, he just had a good customer fertilizer program worked out. Me and my buddy would discuss grow techniques and cool facts with him all the time and he would just say shit "where do you guys learn about stuff like this. If it works dont fix it" and that is true to an extent, but come on, we are eccentric pot farmers, reaching out to new cool shit is in our nature. I can't wait to start my UC project, I am doing either UC or MPB with baverb. Hope everyone can keep up with what I just said, lol. 

And the ringworm pissed me off, it almost made me miss the competition where we took home gold. It was some super ring worm that took like 5 different meds to kill. It was so embarrassing! I'm a very clean person and pride myself in the fact that I smell great, lol. I'm glad I don't have to grow with that kind of shit anymore. I love growing at home, but don't feel very secure doing it. I'm thinking of going down beneath the cloud level and renting a place to grow in. Rent is dirt ass cheap around here.

But have you heard anything about the Jedi Kush? Anything good? I have some free seeds and I hear it is a awesome Death Star cross that definitely competes quality wise. But Death Star is some pretty incredible smoke, it's quite the claim, but Team Deathstar worked with Cali Connection on the project, so it should be quite the dankyspanky.

Here is doublejj's hash thread. The pressing with nickles is a little gross to me, but fucking hilarious. 1g nickle bags  
https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/268309-im-not-ucking-around-making.html


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 15, 2011)

Joedank said:


> View attachment 1787447View attachment 1787448View attachment 1787449View attachment 1787450i get about 1-1 1/2 oz per lbs of trim i only run 3 bags the work the u73 the u93 super melty! it is bought as soon as it is made at around 8-10$ per gram depending on strain ,,,
> oh and i run 1000ppm of co2 and biobizz/ ageold organics @ 900 ppm with silica and horticulural epsom salts


You should be able to get much more than $8-10/gram for good quality bubble hash. Around here, wholesale prices are at least $20/gram.


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## Jozikins (Sep 15, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> You should be able to get much more than $8-10/gram for good quality bubble hash. Around here, wholesale prices are at least $20/gram.


Yeah, but I think he might be talking about wet hash. Because it can take a long time to dry and cure for storage. I'll call up my old grow buddy and ask him what the going rate is for concentrates in socal on the legal side of things. I'll look into kief/hash/wax and give you the averages.


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## rzza (Sep 15, 2011)

in michigan dispensaries sell earwax for upwards of 40 a gram. bubble is 20 -30 or more maybe. my question is to joe, how do you get melt without using like a 220 and 110 to filter the garbage?


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## TheLastWood (Sep 15, 2011)

He does usethe work bag

If u know the strain your running you should only need 3 bags. A strains trichome head size is fairly uniform, when I ran my jack herer, only 2 bags caught anything anyways, whether I used all 5 bags or not, you usually get 1 or 2 money bags that collect most of the goods per that strain


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## Joedank (Sep 15, 2011)

Not to muddy up your thread CG but I am talking about pounds of hash wholesale 10$ per gram is tops for the girls I dine with . As they get 15-20 tops. I perfer to lock in people for the long haul with good prices and great product. The first bag is the work bag I have three different types depending on head size my Microscope has a .000 mm gauge and I adjust by sight an feel 10$ per gram is 4450$ per pound I aint gonna haggle over a dollar or two a gram if it means the dispensary will look elsewhere . I deal with real sick people so value for healing amount is a huge deal.
woveriene i will come to MI if you got 20$ per gram i can youtube you a vid of it fully melting... and the prices in cali and colorado are way diffrent than eleswhere . the outdoor harvest dropps prices alot unless your locked in like me with set prices and solid people.


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## mellokitty (Sep 15, 2011)

more thread jacking! -

can somebody give me some drying tips for bubble pleeeeeez?

love and cupcakes.


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## Joedank (Sep 15, 2011)

Are you looking to press it? I always dry mine in a Pyrex pan crumble it up as it dries with gloves on of course then once to brown sugar stage I freeze it for 24 hrs then one night to dry covered with a drying rack... Then I gently heat it with a water bath for the disp. That want it pressed I roll it with a rolling pin then voilà ready! 
An alternative to that is keif marbled into the hash (I don't do it myself but I have had it done with my trim) biggest yeild/ lowest quality but the whole point of hireing the norcal marbel krew was they buy the hash they make ! They left and gave me money for processing my trim!


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## Jozikins (Sep 15, 2011)

Kitty I would go with Joe because he is clearly consistent with his results. I just kept mine powdery and on a piece of cardboard which is the *wrong* way to do it. You should use a piece of glass or preferably a *drying screen* you can use your cleaned work bag as a drying screen as well, I just never thought to do it because I drink when I make bubble hash because it takes so god damned long, LOL! After it is good and dry, and i mean real dry, I wad it up into 1 - 3.6 gram balls and wrap that in wax paper like salt water taffy, I pop all of that in a open jar for about a week+, and then I start to close it up and burp it. There are a bunch of different ways. I have a feeling Joe has the best method because he deals with _a lot_ more than I do!


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## TheLastWood (Sep 15, 2011)

Or do it the simplest way ever, put it on a dinner plate and let it dry. then scrape it with a razor once its dry, press the shavings into a clump/ball with your fingers.

Iwill probly use my bubble bags next harvest. I been doin all oil lately.


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## collective gardener (Sep 15, 2011)

So, I checked out the dry ice method on You Tube. I gotta try this. I WAY prefer dry sieve to bubble hash, anyways. What micron screen will produce the best dry sieve? The guy on You Tube was using 220, but that seems pretty coarse...like it would just let through everything.

Commercial J is giving me some great sugar trim he's been saving. That fucker has just been drying it and bagging it for years! When I told him I was going to make some hash, he said, "come by the shop and I'll lay 20 lbs on ya." LMFAO.


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 16, 2011)

dam CG cant wait to see what you cook up lol!! epic hash


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## Joedank (Sep 16, 2011)

I don't do dry screen anymore but I love keif my homie uses tight woven black shower curtains stretched over garbage cans and a drill..Lifted this from Marc emery article on c.c.
"Dry screen hash is made with a single 110-micron screen"
I have used 110 and it can be bought for making trim tables so all the sugar falls thru while you trim


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## TheLastWood (Sep 16, 2011)

I've always heard a 120-140 micron screen is the best. 

To me, kief is for the kiefbox on the grinder

Bho is what its all about. Nice thick,sticky, pure, golden goodness. Mmmm.


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## Joedank (Sep 16, 2011)

Oh man I gotta give you shit for using a keif havesting grinder that is too much lost thc for me keif is for trim I don't keif my stash as I smoke it I grind and pour or use a shotglass and scissors ... Oh there I go trolling again


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## cannawizard (Sep 16, 2011)

Joedank said:


> Oh man I gotta give you shit for using a keif havesting grinder that is too much lost thc for me keif is for trim I don't keif my stash as I smoke it I grind and pour or use a shotglass and scissors ... Oh there I go trolling again




hehe


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 16, 2011)

Screens come in two different size scales; micron and LPI (lines per inch). 120 LPI is close to = to 90 micron... I think. If you're doing a single screen I'd do 120-125 LPI.


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## TheLastWood (Sep 16, 2011)

How is the thc lost? Its in the kiefbox. 

I mainly use scissors also tho just cuz I only break up small amt at a time so it doesn't dry out to fast.


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## mellokitty (Sep 16, 2011)

thank you so much for the input fellas. the _making_ part is easy now; i just borrow my friend's payload washer. 

but i seem to manage to fuck up the finishing process about half the time (i know i know. got slapped by wayne brady along the way and everything). 
so, like, spread it as thin as it'll get? 
and does it have to dry slowly, like plants do, or can i just quick dry it?


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## TheLastWood (Sep 16, 2011)

Spreading it will dry faster so that's what I do 

I scoop it out of the bag with a spoon, pour it onto a plate, put it in the cabinet and check on it tommoro.

Gardener have you seen fdd2blk washing machine hash thread?


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## collective gardener (Sep 16, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Spreading it will dry faster so that's what I do
> 
> I scoop it out of the bag with a spoon, pour it onto a plate, put it in the cabinet and check on it tommoro.
> 
> Gardener have you seen fdd2blk washing machine hash thread?


 
I haven't seen that thread from fdd2blk. I have to say that this discussion is great. Who knew has could spring about so much talk. OK. Keep going.


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## Joedank (Sep 16, 2011)

http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/product/MSH110W50Go here for silk screen bulk
my bro on gardenscure built a tumbler for dry screen like one of the old pollinators but huge... Glassed in it looks tits
Mello I just spread it out thin then scrape and crumble .... Easy as123... My new customers like it like brown or red sand so I crumble alot and don't cure it much but I always use glass for all steps but the mixing.


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## TheLastWood (Sep 16, 2011)

I actually have some cataract kush trim I need to run. I've been makin a lot of oil lately cuz I like to keep my trim/hash seperated by strain. 

With the 5 gallon bags you need at least 2 oz of trim to make it worth ur while, if I mix jack herer,plushberry and cataract kush trim ill have enough, but then ill have to use all 5 bags.

Easier to just make oil, only need about a half oz to get a gram and a half of oil. 

I also vacuum purge my oil to make it insta ready to smoke, instead of waiting for trace elements of butane to evap. My last batch came out like bubble anyways, I can hold it in my hands without it sticking to me. Weird. Plushberry. I love it tho.


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## rzza (Sep 16, 2011)

Joedank said:


> I don't do dry screen anymore but I love keif my homie uses tight woven black shower curtains stretched over garbage cans and a drill..Lifted this from Marc emery article on c.c.
> "Dry screen hash is made with a single 110-micron screen"
> I have used 110 and it can be bought for making trim tables so all the sugar falls thru while you trim


this wont be acurate for any flavors. perhaps it was the best size screen for HIS strain but different strains glandular heads will vary in size from each other thus making a 110 screen perfect for one strain but the next may not yield anything with that screen. 
i have an 8 bag set and some strains the yellow bag gets filled and some the black gets filled and the yellow captures zero.


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## Joedank (Sep 16, 2011)

^^^ I am referring to dry screen as you see in above post for wet I use different work bags depending on strain but only two bubble bags EVER give me full melt u73 u90 (I think) any way
CG - dry ice makes tons of product but not high purity do to the crystalzation when plant matter comes in contact with the -400ish ice..- according to sources--- take that for what you will u still wanna try it
According to mila the bubble bags are only supposed robe three bags max those low ones just catch colored cellulose... I'll edit this again with a link to that. I little light reading;
MICRON VS LPI Mesh sizing 
The US and some other countries use the " lines per inch " or L.P.I. method of identifying mesh, which is a measure of how many strands contained within one linear inch of the mesh. 200 LPI mesh will have smaller hole size openings compared to 100 LPI because there are twice as many lines of fiber per inch. 

This LPI method does not take into account the fact that different mesh have strands that vary in thickness, which alter the hole size opening. 

The rest of the world uses the metric measurement system for mesh sizing. The 
"micron" - measures the inside width measurement of each mesh hole opening. This is a far more accurate method for determining the mesh size openings. 

ex. "200 micron mesh" has larger mesh openings compared to a "100 micron" mesh. 

Comparison of mesh measurements 
L.P.I. / Micron 
83 / 200 
110 / 150 
137 / 120 

Approximate Micron mesh sizes for hashing 

Passive trichcome collection - 
Use 150 ~ 160 micron mesh ( 100 ~ 110 LPI ) 

Active flat screen - 
Use 140 ~ 120 micron mesh ( 115 ~ 137 LPI ) 

Ice hash extraction - 
See Bubble-man's site for full details about multi-bag ice hash extraction. 

Screening with mesh 
Prior to screening ....grind up bud and resiny leaf to jay rolling consistency size, but don't cut up the herb too small. 

If you are using a stash-box with an inner mesh screen cover..... turn the inner cover upside down, half fill with ground-up bud, fit the mesh frame snuggly on the inner cover, turn it over, place back in the stashbox and agitate it (or just hold the inner cover, the screen frame and the glass together) and do the horizontal circular shake thing for a few minutes. 

If you are not using a box be careful of draughts as the light resin can and will fly away with the slightest wind when actively screening. 

Kif quality 
Good advice is to stop every few minutes and set the powder aside in separate piles - taste and strength-test each pile. You should find that quality drops as each subsequent pile has a higher % of broken up veg matter and less % of resin heads. 

I generally do a side-to-side shuffle for less than 2 minutes with a half oz of bud that gives me a small amount of sticky resin. 

I stop when the kif does not easily form into a shape and stay there with a little thumb and palm pressure.


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## jyermum (Sep 17, 2011)

You might want to check out doublejj's thread with his washing machine bubble setup. The guys over at http://aqualabtechnologies.com/ have a bunch of good YouTube bids and info. In the past I've always done the bubble bags but a buddy just got a roller so Ive been rolling the small crystal trim and using the bigger stuff for bubble. After seeing the dry ice methods I'm all about trying that instead of the roller since his screen might be too big because my results are green not white


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## collective gardener (Sep 17, 2011)

Well, that's the best blast of hash making info I've ever seen on a couple pages. Thanks to all for sharing your extensive knowledge.

While I can certainly see why folks prefer to make Ice Water Hash, it's really not for me. In my opinion the water washes away too much essence. Water hash has always seemed just a little "boring" to me. I've had plenty of full melt shit, too. It's strong, but lacks a certain broadness and depth of flavor that dry sieve sems to have. I don't want to start a debate, just voicing my fucked up opinion. The dry ice method seems a great way to pump up the dry sieve yield. Plus, putting the bag over the buckey to screen with is genius. SO much easier than the flat sceen.

I'm making some today...in about 3 hrs, in fact. Yipeeeee. If it all works out, I'll have a die machined that stamps a BK (bubba kush) into each 1 gram puck. Just a little marketting fun. My shop is surrounded by tool and die machine shops. We'll get a die going that can press a dozen or so 1 gram pucks in one shot. Fuck that little one at a time hash press.


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## MrEDuck (Sep 17, 2011)

I really hate to disrupt this wonderful hash discussion, but I did some looking for info about ripening and CO2. I couldn't really find anything, although I didn't have access to one paper that seemed promising from it's keywords. It's _Cereal Research Communications, Vol 36, Supplement S, Pg 1855-1858_. If you know anyone who goes to a school that has an agriculture program they might have access. Also the UC system library has subscriptions to pretty much everything.
There were some pretty interesting papers.

I'm really enjoying all this hash talk. I've got a bunch of bud that has an ammonia smell to it that I'm planning to make into hash. I just need to decide on a method.


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 17, 2011)

bring on the hash cg cant wait to see the results


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## collective gardener (Sep 17, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> bring on the hash cg cant wait to see the results


 
We'll be done with the last of the trimming of the current crop tomorrow. My wife won't let me make any has until all the trimming is complete. She's actually still at the shop trimming right now, while I sit and BS with you folks. I have a feeling I'll be in trouble tonight. Women seem to be able to sit and trim for longer than men. I hate to say it, but it's true! All my best endurance trimmers have been girls. Not only can they bust out the 12 hr days, but they do a better job than most men, too. Maybe I should get a bunch of bikini clad girls and pimp them out to commercial grows. They could be the "Micro Bikini Trimming Team"


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## rzza (Sep 17, 2011)

so funny I seen an ad once on budtrader WANTED: bikini trimmers. LOL I will do that one day


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## TheLastWood (Sep 17, 2011)

Gardener they have to be naked to make sure they don't steal any nugs.


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## rzza (Sep 17, 2011)

strip searched on the way out AHAHAHA


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## Jozikins (Sep 18, 2011)

Last round with the bubble bags I used 160 micron and that gave great results, it all depends on how much you shake it. Next round I am going to use 73, I'll lose a lot of yield but hopefully it is nothing but the very best. I would like to use a 90 micron but I don't have one. Apparently there is a place that manufactures bubble bags just down the hill from me, so I'm going to go in there like a big shot and try and make some friends. Lol. 

Last time I used the 160 it was in a very small batch for a friend, we put only one ounce into the 160 bag and shook for no longer than 10-15 minutes total combined. If not less. And the kief was so fucking pure and golden it molded together like wax. I've never seen kief of such high quality, which is why I'm excited to see what difference besides yield 73 or 90 will give me.

*Kitty* you can dry bubble hash slow or fast, it's all up to you. But you want to get 90% of it dry as fast as possible, that shit will mold on you, you do not want to jar it wet. But if someone has reasoning for curing it really slow (like I have been out of paranoia... sometimes, lol) and has more experience on the subject than me, I would love to know why.

https://www.rollitup.org/members/jyermum-327001.html*Jyermum* LOL, that is actually the company down the hill from me I was just talking about, Aqua Lab Technologies.


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## rzza (Sep 18, 2011)

Joedank said:


> ^^^ I am referring to dry screen as you see in above post for wet I use different work bags depending on strain but only two bubble bags EVER give me full melt u73 u90


dry or bubble it doesnt matter, the whole point is getting the correct size screen depending on strain and size of glandular heads. my point about bubble hash and screen size vs glandular heads will also go for dry sifting.


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## mellokitty (Sep 18, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> We'll be done with the last of the trimming of the current crop tomorrow. My wife won't let me make any has until all the trimming is complete. She's actually still at the shop trimming right now, while I sit and BS with you folks. I have a feeling I'll be in trouble tonight. Women seem to be able to sit and trim for longer than men. I hate to say it, but it's true! All my best endurance trimmers have been girls. Not only can they bust out the 12 hr days, but they do a better job than most men, too. Maybe I should get a bunch of bikini clad girls and pimp them out to commercial grows. They could be the "Micro Bikini Trimming Team"


*ehem*
no infringing on my "hired naked gun" maintenance team idea, please. does it matter that i'm a team of one for now? (sometimes 2, but you prolly don't wanna see him rock a bikini.) 
in bc, there is an entire subculture/mini-economy based on housewives who trim (and it's pretty much an accepted fact that women are preferable for the longhaul jobs). it's to a lesser degree now, and especially with the advent of machines like the spinpro and trimpro it's a lot harder to make an actual _living_ at it these days, but a decade ago i knew an army of children who were being raised by singlemoms whose main income was from trimming. 

that said, i've always wanted to see california... *nudge nudge*


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## mellokitty (Sep 18, 2011)

rzza said:


> strip searched on the way out AHAHAHA


i can't laugh at this. you can't imagine how common it is for male bosses to FOR SERIOUS try to pull shit like this, "because women have nimble fingers."


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## TheLastWood (Sep 18, 2011)

Spread em scumbag!


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## mellokitty (Sep 18, 2011)

is wayne brady gonna have to go get a union rep?


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## rzza (Sep 18, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> i can't laugh at this. you can't imagine how common it is for male bosses to FOR SERIOUS try to pull shit like this, "because women have nimble fingers."


i didnt think of it like that im not a perv or anything just thought that was funny ....i hear ya tho, good point


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## mellokitty (Sep 18, 2011)

rzza said:


> i didnt think of it like that im not a perv or anything just thought that was funny ....i hear ya tho, good point


i know right? fuckin pervy bosses, ruining it for everyone.... 

you should hear the kind of shit cg pulled on his trimmer.... actually went and _married_ her... WHAT a deviant


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## collective gardener (Sep 18, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> i know right? fuckin pervy bosses, ruining it for everyone....
> 
> you should hear the kind of shit cg pulled on his trimmer.... actually went and _married_ her... WHAT a deviant


 
Yeah...but she had big boobs, so it's ok.


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## collective gardener (Sep 18, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> Last round with the bubble bags I used 160 micron and that gave great results, it all depends on how much you shake it. Next round I am going to use 73, I'll lose a lot of yield but hopefully it is nothing but the very best. I would like to use a 90 micron but I don't have one. Apparently there is a place that manufactures bubble bags just down the hill from me, so I'm going to go in there like a big shot and try and make some friends. Lol.
> 
> Last time I used the 160 it was in a very small batch for a friend, we put only one ounce into the 160 bag and shook for no longer than 10-15 minutes total combined. If not less. And the kief was so fucking pure and golden it molded together like wax. I've never seen kief of such high quality, which is why I'm excited to see what difference besides yield 73 or 90 will give me.
> 
> ...


 
I'm thinking of just starting small and working up to bigger micron bags. If I keep all the product seperate, it should be a breeaze to figure out the best screen for our strain. My trim has an assload of buds in it. We only have 2 pilkes now: AAA for sale, and gtrim. Small buds go into trim pile. I used to keep em to pay trimmers and for gifts. Alot of it just sat and went kinda bad. Now friends will have to just suffer and get the AAA for gifts, and most trimmers are getting cash. Having so many buds in the trim pile should make for some pretty good yield.


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## collective gardener (Sep 18, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> *ehem*
> no infringing on my "hired naked gun" maintenance team idea, please. does it matter that i'm a team of one for now? (sometimes 2, but you prolly don't wanna see him rock a bikini.)
> in bc, there is an entire subculture/mini-economy based on housewives who trim (and it's pretty much an accepted fact that women are preferable for the longhaul jobs). it's to a lesser degree now, and especially with the advent of machines like the spinpro and trimpro it's a lot harder to make an actual _living_ at it these days, but a decade ago i knew an army of children who were being raised by singlemoms whose main income was from trimming.
> 
> that said, i've always wanted to see california... *nudge nudge*


It's stories like this that make our laws seem so frustrating to me. There is a great economy potential here for California. We stand to benefit more than any other state with national legalization. If tomorrow we could legally produce and export, there would be a flood of jobs here. Pot already employes so many people (myself included), yet so many talk bad of it still. 

I love the single moms story. I'm glad that my industry was able to provide employment where other industries failed to do so. And I mean FAILED. We are failing our comrades. Single mothers are getting less and less help in this country. If the Tea Party has their way, we'll throw em all under a bus.

I pay $12 - $20 per hour for trimmers. I've found that there's a big spread on what different people can produce...hence the big price difference. With our high standards, it wouldn't be fair to pay by the pound. I had a guy want to trim for $200/pound. If I held him to that he would have made about $5/hr. Currently the only $20/hr worker is my wife. I promise it's not because she's my wife. She out produces every single person who has ever trimmed in this op. In fact, she sets the standard for what you have to do to hit the $20 mark. Most my trimmers get $15, and I have 2 people who get $17. Alot of people don't like to pay people different rates for the same job description. As a business owner of over 20 years, it's the only way I fly. If you do more work, you should get paid more. Period. I leave it up to the workers whether they want to tell the others what they are making per hour. For my part I keep that confidential. 

The best thing for me would be to just have 1 or 2 trimmers that would work 8+ hrs/day for 10 days or so in a row during harvest. I can stagger the crop to allow that. The less people involved, the better. Unfortunately, I haven't found anyone who can do that. Which is understandable. It's not a full time job, but needs full time hours once a month. If a single mom approached me, I'd probably just roll it into a full time gig. I was raised by a single mom from the time I was 2 years old. I have a special place in my heart for moms going it alone. It's not all trying to "do the right thing" either. Single moms have a huge responsablity that goes beyond themselves. If they have a good job that puts a roof over their heads and food on the table, they want to keep it. They are less likely to steal, and more likely to go above and beyond. If you tie the health of the grow op with the health of their childeren, the mom WILL NOT let plants get sick or die. When you combine the commitment of a single mom with the fact that women tend to take care of plants better than men, you may just have the perfect employee. 

Kitty, I have no problem shooting you some work when you visit California. I can't promise to finance your vacation, but, with the right timing, I could provide a few buck to offset your expenses. You and hubby could stay at the shop, as well. We're in the process of setting up a little living area there. You guys could stay with us, but we live on a sailboat without alot of room. The grow is also a bike ride from the beach. I would love to have you visit the grow and add insight.


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## person1,000,001 (Sep 18, 2011)

RawBudzski said:


> GOD DAMN YOU. Im in So CAL and its the Shyt. Best Bud on the Planet... Your thread had been Officially Jacked By Cali.


You guys can thank northern cali for that, and your welcome.


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## MrEDuck (Sep 18, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> i can't laugh at this. you can't imagine how common it is for male bosses to FOR SERIOUS try to pull shit like this, "because women have nimble fingers."


The idea bugs me. That's what they do to people who bag hard drugs. I couldn't treat people like that.
If I had to treat weed like drugs I wouldn't be growing.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 18, 2011)

MrEDuck said:


> The idea bugs me. That's what they do to people who bag hard drugs. I couldn't treat people like that.
> If I had to treat weed like drugs I wouldn't be growing.


Seriously, I could go right now and probably pick up a $100 bag off my basement floor. I just don't care, that much.


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## curious2garden (Sep 18, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> It's stories like this that make our laws seem so frustrating to me.


Prohibition never works and anyone who has read history knows this, and I am not just referring to the mess the Vollstead act created. Since our govt. is ran by people with educations who know this there is some other reason, qui bene?

This is an absolutely phenomenal thread. I took several days to read it in it's entirety although I must admit I really enjoyed C.G.'s Cliff Notes edition roughly 2/3 rds of the way through.

I am just looking at getting started with mmj and I hope to be able to, discreetly grow my own small supply one day, assuming this medication helps, and I am just flabbergasted at the breadth and depth of knowledge that C.G. not only has but gives away with open hands! In this day and age when anyone who knows even the smallest most inconsequential thing tries to charge you for it the generosity of C.G. and the regulars on this thread is amazing!

I wish I could give rep to everyone here but as a newbie I don't yet know the ins and outs but I won't forget, thank you all, I look forward to learning at your knee(s),
Annie


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## Jozikins (Sep 19, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I'm thinking of just starting small and working up to bigger micron bags. If I keep all the product seperate, it should be a breeaze to figure out the best screen for our strain. My trim has an assload of buds in it. We only have 2 pilkes now: AAA for sale, and gtrim. Small buds go into trim pile. I used to keep em to pay trimmers and for gifts. Alot of it just sat and went kinda bad. Now friends will have to just suffer and get the AAA for gifts, and most trimmers are getting cash. Having so many buds in the trim pile should make for some pretty good yield.


 Tonight I went back through an old cannabis bible, the original one I picked up, the Grow Bible from Jorge Cervantes. Man, I tell you, he put a lot of great info in there that you quickly forget about when you don't have a lot of experience, but once you have a thorough understanding of cannabis cultivation it becomes twice the treasure trove it was before. Other members are right though, it would seem after reading the text, that even with dry sieve, screen size is crucial. Much of this book is based off opinion, but it's a collaborated opinion of a slew of incredible cannacultivators!

I think I am using a 73 micron bag on this Blue Dream with the dry ice sieve method.

Everything that isn't good enough for me to smoke or given to patients is put into food, and even if it is good enough, I still like to cook with it. lol.

I did not get with ABC yet in Huntington, but I will get you two in contact soon. I am thinking of skipping the whole MMJ scene and getting you in direct contact with a breast cancer clinic that advocates it, but does not advertise recommendations. I am trying for you, and if I can get them to converse with me a little on the subject I will absolutely put you two in as direct contact as possible. A friend from work is going to them, and she is trying radiation without mmj, but if she can't do it I have arranged free medication and state recommendation for no charge through a good doctor, I'm sure hers would do it anyways for her, her doctor is very pro cannabis from what she has told me. I have not talked to this clinic at all yet, but it seems like a good place to start fishing. 

But I think if you want your medication to go to the right place, it should be through a service offered, probably delivery service, exclusively through a private cancer clinic, or other serious illness clinics that do not shamelessly script healthy patients.


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## MrEDuck (Sep 19, 2011)

The problem with a private cancer clinic is they're not treating poor people or even middle class people usually.
This just popped into my head, and I don't know if it'll work or be another dead end. Is there a way of searching for nonprofits? Even if you have to manually sort through a list of local 501(c) or 503(c) or whatever the tax code for nonprofits is? Then look for ones that deal with things like terminal illnesses. It might help. I've gotta say it blows my mind that you have people all but lining up to buy your pot and you can't give it away to people in need.


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## collective gardener (Sep 19, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> Tonight I went back through an old cannabis bible, the original one I picked up, the Grow Bible from Jorge Cervantes. Man, I tell you, he put a lot of great info in there that you quickly forget about when you don't have a lot of experience, but once you have a thorough understanding of cannabis cultivation it becomes twice the treasure trove it was before. Other members are right though, it would seem after reading the text, that even with dry sieve, screen size is crucial. Much of this book is based off opinion, but it's a collaborated opinion of a slew of incredible cannacultivators!
> 
> I think I am using a 73 micron bag on this Blue Dream with the dry ice sieve method.
> 
> ...


 
Go Jozikins...you the man. Thanks for the pro effort on finding patients. I took a break on that front a while back due to frustration and people trying to scam me for free pot. Youe effort has lit a fire under my ass again. In fact, there's a poster right here on this thread who is in need and will be getting some free meds this week...she knows who she is. 

Jozikins, just let me know what I have to do. I can be abywhere anytime if it means a meeting with someone who can get us the needy folks. 

Mr E Duck, it is ironic that I have zero problem selling the shit, yet can't seem to give away more than a couple 1/8's a month. I am sure that it will be someone on this thread who connects me to the right folks who really need meds. If you guys want to do something good with your time and further the cause, as well...help us find these people.


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## TheLastWood (Sep 19, 2011)

Cg you should set up a booth or somethin at a run for the cure marathon. Then you could be around thousands of ppl that may need, and its a better environmeent than in a doctors office or somethin.

Not sayin askin doctors is a bad idea

But if you set up a booth it could b kinda discreet just say somethin like "natures cure" or "herbal remedies" or somethin n then once you start talkin to ppl u could feel them out. Your legal anyways so its all good but discreet is always better.

EDIT: better yet, you could print off a bunch of pamphlets about mmj and THE TRUTH and your purpose there is "to educate". You may just turn a few ppl to our side, and meet the needy at the same time.


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## collective gardener (Sep 19, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Cg you should set up a booth or somethin at a run for the cure marathon. Then you could be around thousands of ppl that may need, and its a better environmeent than in a doctors office or somethin.
> 
> Not sayin askin doctors is a bad idea
> 
> ...


 
It's great idea. So much so that I emailed it to my lawyer...who shot it down. We need to be just a tad more under the radar in the current legal environment. His saying is "you be the grower...I'll be the activist". 

Maybe what I'm looking for is just impossibe. More likely, it will be one patient at a time until a network is built around some crazy grower who's giving the shit away. Another thought I have is to get a few grow ops together, and then find a third party volunteer to do the distributing. He would be the "weed fairy". The Weed Fairy would have nothing to do with any of the grow ops. We need a weed fairy. I'm sure there's someone out there who wants to promotye the cause while making some people feel better. Just the fact that a few ops are giving weed away would do wonders for our image. 

The dispensaries are on the front line. But, us growers are the real life blood of this industry. The only time people even hear of us is when an op burns down or is busted. It's always in a negative light. The discussion over whether to allow dispensaries in a certain area rarely includes the grow ops that supply 95% of the meds to the dispensaries. We are forced into the shadows. I may be as legal as I can be, but if I got raided I'd probably have to shut down. A group of grow ops pooling their resources to help out those in need would be a wonderful way for us to show our face in a positive light. If we could find the right Weed Fairy (shit, we could even call him/her that in public), we could say "Hey, we're out here, and we're doing good stuff", without having to actually give our names and grow op locations. I could get my local press to cover the Weed Fairy in a hot second. 

Guys, I'm willing to take the first step and toss out the first few ounces to the cause. But, I can't go it alone. Should I post in the California Patients section? What ideas do you crazy fuckers have on this? I know alot of you are not from Cali. Do we attempt a national Weed Fairy program? I know that if I ever found myself in front of a jury, having the weed fairy testify on my behalf as a giver would make a conviction all the less likely. Are there any other grows that would want to get involved in such a thing? I know it's tempting to just keep on growing and moving meds the way we all have for years. But the time is approaching when we'll need to band together and have a voice. If we don't, when this shit goes mainstream, Big Daddy Fuck Em All Coorperation will steam roll us flat as piss on a plate. By something as simple as donating some meds together, we can begin to establish a positive public opinion about the small/medium grow ops. We do the work, yet the storefront dispensaries get the glory (and, to be fair, sometimes the heat). 

Done right, we can do this without a security risk. That is why a third party is so important. I personally don't feel safe with a booth at a "run for the cure" event. But, I would kick in some $$$ for pamphlets and the like. I can just see the fine print: "Sponsered by Local Medical Marijuana Growing Operations". or: MMGA (medical marijuana growers of america).

Gang, I'm just tossing this out there. If someone has some different ideas, throw em out here. Most of you know how I feel about the need for us to give away meds to those in serious need without the means to buy it themselves. We are NOT like the drug companies. We will NOT let poor people suffer when we have the power to help them without affecting our bottom line more than a couple bucks. I think most responsable growers feel the same way. It would be nice if we could reach out and help some people, and, at the same time, let the public know that we are doing it.


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## C.Indica (Sep 20, 2011)

I'm not going to read the last 7 pages I missed.

Seems like;
You're almost done setting up Co2,
You're making hash now in bulk,
and you just cut down an 8x8.

Did I miss anything else?
And how's your days going CG? Hope they're great.


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## collective gardener (Sep 20, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> I'm not going to read the last 7 pages I missed.
> 
> Seems like;
> You're almost done setting up Co2,
> ...


CO2 generator is back ordered for a month. I'm hell bent on the one allowing forced air cooling.

While waiting for CO2, found a great source for ductless split A/C systems. 24,000BTU, Hitachi compressor, $1,028 tax license and delivery from Texas. It includes a 25' line set. It's only 13 SEER, but that's not too bad. The other one I was looking at was 21,000BTU, 19 SEER, $1,500 + 9% Cali tax. The electricity savings from the 19 SEER would probably offset the price increase in 7 or 8 years. That's just too long to justify a $1,200 cost difference (I need 2 units). This source also has 9,000, 12,000, and 18,000 BTU units for great prices. I think the 9,000 is under $700. A 9,000 BTU split will give you far more cooling than a 14,000 BTU portable. Anyone wanting the perfect sealed room settup should take a look at these: http://www.bestpriceminisplits.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=BPMS&Category_Code=24000btu


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 20, 2011)

Hey cg this is off topic but your in the cali area, have you ever seen fytocell before its a medium!
And i cant find it anywhere other that over seas


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## Jozikins (Sep 20, 2011)

No problem CG, it is my pleasure to help you out. Just like you, I've seen some real sick people I've made friends with in the industry, and they are here this week, dead and gone the next. Working a dispensary or collective can be emotional in this sense, but the sentiment has been my driving force since I first got behind the bud bar. Next Saturday or Sunday I should be able to get in better contact with the cancer clinic and by Tuesday next week I should be able to get some contact between the three of us.

I will keep looking into the alternatives and see if we can't get you some charity work.

I would gladly volunteer myself to distribute free medicine, be the weed fairy, but my area is very isolated and it wouldn't work out for me. I would love to get involved again, but I'll have to wait for another opportunity once I move out toward OC area, thinking along the beach a little closer to LA than SD. Anyways, I've been filling and presoaking pots since 4pm, and I'm pretty damn tired. The bong wasn't doing it so I took some pain killers, which I haven't done in a few months because I don't like them, and I'm not exactly thinking to full capacity right now. I still have a lot of input on the whole live rockwool experiment, and actually started 2 experimental plants to try it with, so far so good. Keeping them less wet seems to be crucial.

Anyways, more thoughts tomorrow.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> CO2 generator is back ordered for a month. I'm hell bent on the one allowing forced air cooling.
> 
> While waiting for CO2, found a great source for ductless split A/C systems. 24,000BTU, Hitachi compressor, $1,028 tax license and delivery from Texas. It includes a 25' line set. It's only 13 SEER, but that's not too bad. The other one I was looking at was 21,000BTU, 19 SEER, $1,500 + 9% Cali tax. The electricity savings from the 19 SEER would probably offset the price increase in 7 or 8 years. That's just too long to justify a $1,200 cost difference (I need 2 units). This source also has 9,000, 12,000, and 18,000 BTU units for great prices. I think the 9,000 is under $700. A 9,000 BTU split will give you far more cooling than a 14,000 BTU portable. Anyone wanting the perfect sealed room settup should take a look at these: http://www.bestpriceminisplits.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=BPMS&Category_Code=24000btu


Just curious, is there a reason you won't consider a water cooled co2 generator? All they are is an on demand tankless water heater, but they work great...


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> CO2 generator is back ordered for a month. I'm hell bent on the one allowing forced air cooling.
> 
> While waiting for CO2, found a great source for ductless split A/C systems. 24,000BTU, Hitachi compressor, $1,028 tax license and delivery from Texas. It includes a 25' line set. It's only 13 SEER, but that's not too bad. The other one I was looking at was 21,000BTU, 19 SEER, $1,500 + 9% Cali tax. The electricity savings from the 19 SEER would probably offset the price increase in 7 or 8 years. That's just too long to justify a $1,200 cost difference (I need 2 units). This source also has 9,000, 12,000, and 18,000 BTU units for great prices. I think the 9,000 is under $700. A 9,000 BTU split will give you far more cooling than a 14,000 BTU portable. Anyone wanting the perfect sealed room settup should take a look at these: http://www.bestpriceminisplits.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=BPMS&Category_Code=24000btu



I have a few things to point out about ductless mini splits.
First of all, they only cool if the outside air temps are above 65F. If you need to cool and your weather goes below 65F down to 14F, you need a ductless mini split that supports "low ambient" temperatures. If your outside weather goes BELOW 14F, then you need to wire in an additional extreme low ambience kit that lets the machine cool at outside temps of -45 or something like that.

Also important AS HELL is to find one with "auto restart" so that when your power flickers or goes off, the A/C turns back on when the power does.. No one wants a room full of fried plants. (but you all have high temp cutoffs, right?)

You should consider a Shinco mini split.

As you can see, I have spent too many sleepless nights reading A/C specs and looking for the best deals... 
I have found a good place to get these...


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## collective gardener (Sep 20, 2011)

tommyo3000 said:


> I have a few things to point out about ductless mini splits.
> First of all, they only cool if the outside air temps are above 65F. If you need to cool and your weather goes below 65F down to 14F, you need a ductless mini split that supports "low ambient" temperatures. If your outside weather goes BELOW 14F, then you need to wire in an additional extreme low ambience kit that lets the machine cool at outside temps of -45 or something like that.
> 
> Also important AS HELL is to find one with "auto restart" so that when your power flickers or goes off, the A/C turns back on when the power does.. No one wants a room full of fried plants. (but you all have high temp cutoffs, right?)
> ...


 
Interesting stuff. If you woulkdn't mind, could you please source your info. I'm aware of the auto restart feature (we will be using the existing exhaust system as the emergency cooling system), but haven't heard about any problems under 65F. Fortunately, I'm near the beach where it's pretty stable temps. But, we do see 50's. I'm curious as to what the problem is under 65F. I'm aware of problems when we get near freezing.


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Interesting stuff. If you woulkdn't mind, could you please source your info. I'm aware of the auto restart feature (we will be using the existing exhaust system as the emergency cooling system), but haven't heard about any problems under 65F. Fortunately, I'm near the beach where it's pretty stable temps. But, we do see 50's. I'm curious as to what the problem is under 65F. I'm aware of problems when we get near freezing.


"Trying to run the unit in air-conditioning mode when it is too cold outside. This condition causes very low head pressure and poor refrigerant flow to the indoor coil, causing ice to start to form. Once ice starts to form the head pressure will fall even more and the coil will soon become a block of ice and risk slugging the compressor with liquid refrigerant. 
The solution is to add a low ambient kit to the unit if it is to be operated when outside temperatures are below 65 degrees F."

http://toad.net/~jsmeenen/bids/ambient.html

Where I live we get to 14 a few times and below it a few times each year.. I will be ordering a Shinco with extreme low ambient control...

24,000 BTU shinco WITHOUT outside bracket and WITHOUT free shipping: $1099.00 http://www.shincominisplits.com/24000_Btu_DC_Inverter_Mini_Split_Heat_Pump_AC_by_Shinco/p911931_4077390.aspx
24,000 BTU Shinco WITH outside bracket WITH free ship: $1299.00 http://www.shincominisplits.com/24000_Btu_DC_Inverter_Mini_Split_Heat_Pump_AC___Outside_Bracket_by_Shinco/p911931_4077405.aspx

This model has auto restart and does low ambient down to 14F.


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## TheLastWood (Sep 20, 2011)

Why would you need to run the ac when its less than 65* out&#8230;?

Let alone 14*


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 20, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Why would you need to run the ac when its less than 65* out&#8230;?
> 
> Let alone 14*


Because I generate 6000watts of heat in a totally sealed and insulated room.


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## mellokitty (Sep 20, 2011)

uummmm.... it's 55 outside right now (it's 10 am here)... which means our 5t a/c runs just fine in lower temps (we run at night).... no ice as of yet.

temps around here barely made it into the 80s this year. that said, we didn't really need the a/c running very much. 

[seriously? 50ish is about as cold as it gets there? i hate you. ]


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 20, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> uummmm.... it's 55 outside right now (it's 10 am here)... which means our 5t a/c runs just fine in lower temps (we run at night).... no ice as of yet.
> 
> temps around here barely made it into the 80s this year. that said, we didn't really need the a/c running very much.
> 
> [seriously? 50ish is about as cold as it gets there? i hate you. ]


What are the specs on your 5 ton a/c? 
Is it a ductless mini split?
At 50ish, it is not working as well as it does at 70ish. It depends on the style of A/C as they come in so many varieties.
Your anecdotal evidence does not change the fact that the coolant in A/Cs is designed to work in a certain range of temperatures. If the temperatures go out of range, the machine loses efficiency at best and at worst can destroy the compressor.
Again, it depends on your specific A/C and what it can handle, which is why we are splitting hairs to find an A/C that A) Won't freeze and blow up and 2) won't fry our gardens from being blown or not auto-restarting, etc..


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## mellokitty (Sep 20, 2011)

tbh, i don't know a lot about our a/c unit (mr. mello had EVERYTHING to do with it), and i do very much appreciate the information about the low temp kit. 

we live in an agricultural area, and i see the same style of unit as we have on the outside of chicken and mushroom barns.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 20, 2011)

tommyo3000 said:


> "Trying to run the unit in air-conditioning mode when it is too cold outside. This condition causes very low head pressure and poor refrigerant flow to the indoor coil, causing ice to start to form. Once ice starts to form the head pressure will fall even more and the coil will soon become a block of ice and risk slugging the compressor with liquid refrigerant.
> The solution is to add a low ambient kit to the unit if it is to be operated when outside temperatures are below 65 degrees F."
> 
> http://toad.net/~jsmeenen/bids/ambient.html
> ...


This is all generally true. You just have to be careful checking the spec's of the unit you purchase. IIRC, both Mitsubishi and Samsung make units that also have heat pump capability and will handle temps down to -15. You do need to be careful in your research on this, I almost bought one last year that would've been great- for eight months a year...


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## TheLastWood (Sep 20, 2011)

If its lower than 50* outside your cooling problems can be solved with proper ventilation


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 20, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> This is all generally true. You just have to be careful checking the spec's of the unit you purchase. IIRC, both Mitsubishi and Samsung make units that also have heat pump capability and will handle temps down to -15. You do need to be careful in your research on this, I almost bought one last year that would've been great- for eight months a year...


Yeah, I almost bought one that wouldn't auto-restart (I HATE that). and then I almost bought one that did not do low ambience.
There is an add-on device that costs $150 that can be wired into any ductless mini split to add the extreme low ambience feature. It basically slows the pump down and lowers the pressure inside the machine so that it can work in the low temps. The heating portion of these mini splits, if there is one, will work regardless of outside ambient temperature.


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 20, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> If its lower than 50* outside your cooling problems can be solved with proper ventilation


Hello. I like to keep my CO2 in, all odors in, all bugs, mold, and insects out...


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 20, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> uummmm.... it's 55 outside right now (it's 10 am here)... which means our 5t a/c runs just fine in lower temps (we run at night).... no ice as of yet.
> 
> temps around here barely made it into the 80s this year. that said, we didn't really need the a/c running very much.
> 
> [seriously? 50ish is about as cold as it gets there? i hate you. ]


lol I woke up this morning and it was 42f brr winters coming


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## Jozikins (Sep 20, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> lol I woke up this morning and it was 42f brr winters coming


 Lol I don't know what mello is talking about, that sounds like hell! PM would never die off it never got over 60f. Even Kitty experiences it with temps never of 80 or so. 

I do too, it gets over 100 sometimes on the mountain in the pinnacle of summer, but never on my sliver of the mountain, always pleasant, never too much over 90 even in the worst of our Southern California sun-fucked summers.

..._SoCal Sun-Fucked Summer Ale_ I think I'm going to name a brew that, that sounds fucking awesome. Anyone else here like Imperial IPA's? I fucking love my bitters!

EDIT: Just realized you guys are using sealed systems.So PM isn't a huge issue unless you bring it in. I'm bummed, no mildew or mold on my outdoor crop the entire season, no buds either besides a few leaf miners and a few caterpillars that were easily taken care of. But now, in my last week before harvest on my early croppers, they all suddenly have a small PM and Spider Mite infestation. Bummer. I'm sealing my indoor soon too. I have all the equipment to do it just not solid walls. I'll probably do it next crop.

CG, are you going to be blasting the CO2 all the time, or are you going to let some fresh air in during the Winter? Do you think the increased yield from CO2 would justify the bills all Winter long, or do you think free cold air could make up the difference in yield? Using free fresh air requires either a ozone generator on the intake or a HEPA Filter, so that is an extra 100-200 bucks tacked on right there for fresh air.


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## TheLastWood (Sep 20, 2011)

So you can have a sealed system and have ventilation. 

I'm sure you could think of somethin, I could draw it out for you if u need. Its pretty simple.

When I ran my room sealed I bougght an environmental timer that has co2, temps, humid, exhause and an overall cycle timer. With one of these it would be very easy to cool your room and/or lighting with outside air below 50*

There's no reason a 6kw grows lights put out more heat than a 1kw grows light. If you have sufficient air movement, not too many lights in a row, and efficiently/effectively ran ducting 

Are you running bare bulb?


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## collective gardener (Sep 21, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> So you can have a sealed system and have ventilation.
> 
> I'm sure you could think of somethin, I could draw it out for you if u need. Its pretty simple.
> 
> ...


 
I never mix sealed with ventilated. I've found that plants become addicted to high levels of CO2. If a room running at 1000ppm drops to 500ppm, growth STOPS. The only way to maintain the desired CO2 level all day long is to keep the room sealed. Cold outside air does help cool things because the lights are fed with outside air. I keep 2 - 14" exhaust fans on a thermostat set for 82f in the event of A/C failure. In 4 sealed grows, I've never needed them (Knock wood).

I had a grow in an area that was very cold in the winter (20f to 50f every night). I used 2 HUGE Caterpillar generator radiators as a heat exchanger between outside and inside. By placing one inside and one outside, I was able to circulate coolant between the 2 and totally cool a 14 light show with zero air exchange. The room stayed sealed. The only energy used was 2 - 36" fand blowing across the radiators and the pump circulating the coolant. Lights were on at night when it was cold outside. 

I sent an email to the A/C supplier. To be honest, I'm not too worried. It just doesn't get too cold (or hot) here. 

The CO2 is without any doubt WAY worth the meager electricity needed to power the A/C. Based on the yield difference Commercial J is getting with the exact strain (same clone!), same lighting, same nutes, same medium, etc...the increased yield will amount to AT LEAST 15 times the power bill increase. With a grow this size, I've found that almost anything you do that increases yield is well worth the money. I'm certainly not trying to "big time", but 10% more is quite a bit of weed. The CO2 increase on this particular Bubba pheno is more like 30%+. I have grown strains that didn't seem to do any better on CO2, as well. This is one of the reasons I waited to seal the grow and start the CO2. I always start with a ventilated grow. Once the grow is dialed in and we settle in on the strain or 2 we'll be growing, I decide whether or not to go with the CO2. In this case, CO2 is a must.


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## TheLastWood (Sep 21, 2011)

If u have a timer like I'm talking about, you can have a sealed and ventilated room.

1 cycle consists of: maintain rh/temps/ppm, exhaust heat if needed, cycle exhaust (from 1 to 3 hrs)

Shuts of co2 before an exhaust, gets temp below set level, then turns co2 back on. 

You will use a bit more co2. But its a lot less than buying an ac unit then upgrading it to cool below 65*

Like I said before, if your ac unit can't keep you within 20* of outside ambient temperature its inadequate.


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## medicine21 (Sep 21, 2011)

I need an A/C that is not a window A/C and that does not have an outside unit for stealth. This is to run in a sealed room with CO2 and outside temps dropping as low as -22F* in the winter. I have tried a portable A/C but it leaks smell to the outside and sucks my CO2 out thus creating an inefficient cycle of heat-->A/C ON-->CO2 drop-->propane burner ON-->more heat-->A/C ON-->etc...

I've tried a water cooled A/C, but man the water consumption is huge on this thing. Isn't there a unit that can intake air from outside, blow cool air inside and exhaust hot air to outside WITHOUT an external unit?


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 21, 2011)

To everyone who thinks you can have a sealed room and vent, please look up the definition of "contradiction."

You do not understand that THE NUMBER ONE THING in a sealed room IS TOTAL ENCLOSURE 100% 24/7/365. There is NO other option for CGE. The definition of CGE is a sealed room. If you add a fan, you do not have a CGE.

That is not to say that all of your ideas for fans and ozone and all that wouldn't work, because they would... It is just that I chose to lock my shit down for 0% air exchange to the outside. I DO NOT WANT COPS SMELLING MY CROP. EVER.

That is why we CGE growers take great pains to take care of every detail... I have every gadget and meter and then some. My room is a sealed plywood room in the garage, wrapped in insulation, and crack sealed with spray foam...

I do set up my lights on AIR cooling when the temps are cold enough to make a difference.


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 21, 2011)

Also, one more important final frontier in the search for the perfect ductless mini split A/C is this:

Programmable thermostat... Sounds easy... Not so easy...

So we found A/Cs that will turn back on after power failure (auto-restart) and that work regardless of outside weather (low ambient kit), but how do we go about dialing in our daytime temps and nighttime temps?

hmmmmph

It looks like we need to find a ductless mini split with programmable thermostat... A call to my mini split guy yielded the response that he doesn't sell those.. Some searching on the web was promising, but still no answer...

That day/night diff is important.....

any ideas?


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## TheLastWood (Sep 21, 2011)

So if a sealed grow has an exhaust, then by your definition its not a sealed grow. I think your the one with an improper use of the word.

And just because a grow isn't sealed doesn't mean cops can smell it, that's ridiculous. 

Not gonna argue with you, but you ask a question, heat is your problem, and you say it gets very cold there, so I'm suggesting you use the environment to help you. Whether you want to do it, are mentally capable of doing it is your deal, it is possible to do tho.


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 21, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> So if a sealed grow has an exhaust, then by your definition its not a sealed grow. I think your the one with an improper use of the word.
> 
> And just because a grow isn't sealed doesn't mean cops can smell it, that's ridiculous.
> 
> Not gonna argue with you, but you ask a question, heat is your problem, and you say it gets very cold there, so I'm suggesting you use the environment to help you. Whether you want to do it, are mentally capable of doing it is your deal, it is possible to do tho.


I didn't say that just because the room is sealed the cops can't smell it... I use carbon scrubbers inside and have ozone on the outside of the sealed room (in case the scrubbers fail). I believe that a couple of giant Mountain Air scrubbers and a coronal discharge ozonator go a long way to keep the anyone from smelling anything - ever.

I didn't ask a question about how to cool my room with the outside air. I already GAVE AWAY all of the controllers I used when I brought fresh air in... when I went sealed.

Please, if you do not understand the fundamentals of CGE, read some articles. The constraint is keeping it sealed all the time. Get your head around that.

http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/3368.html


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 21, 2011)

OK, for the people interested I have FINALY found a ductless mini split with auto-restart, low ambient, high efficiency 19SEER, AND programmable thermostat.. So you can set your day/night temps.
Fujitsu Halcyon 18CL, 18,000 BTU 19 SEERtless Air Conditioner
Quick Overview
- One Outdoor Unit. ( AOU18CL )
- One 18,000 btu indoor unit. ( ASU18CL )
- One Indoor unit mounting plates.
- One Wireless LCD Remote Control.
- Installation Instructions
- 6 Year Compressor
- 2 Year Functional Parts

http://www.acunitdirect.com/fujitsu-18cl-18-000-btu-halycon-air-conditioner-ductless-mini-split-system-19-seer.html


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## collective gardener (Sep 21, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> So if a sealed grow has an exhaust, then by your definition its not a sealed grow. I think your the one with an improper use of the word.
> 
> And just because a grow isn't sealed doesn't mean cops can smell it, that's ridiculous.
> 
> Not gonna argue with you, but you ask a question, heat is your problem, and you say it gets very cold there, so I'm suggesting you use the environment to help you. Whether you want to do it, are mentally capable of doing it is your deal, it is possible to do tho.


 
Wood,

Hey, Bro. I think we're just kind of on different pages, here. You've been around long enough to know that I never add fuel to a brewing fire, especially if one of the old guard (YOU!) is involved. Let me try to put this to bed without any further tension. 

I am well versed in the system and controller you speak of. I have a Sentinell controller that can work similar. The reason I do not use that anymore is because during the cycling, the CO2 levels vary too much. It has been my experience that when enriching, it's important to maintain levels withing about 10% of the desired level. Even setting the deadband too high can reduce growth when the levels swing toward the low end of the deadband. For many years I used such a system. This was before we had the controllers of today. We had to coordinate several controllers to do the "dance". It was very challanging to fine tune the enrich - hold - exhaust - enrich cycle. During this time period I read an article in the book: "Hydroponic Vegetable Production" regarding CO2 levels. Basically, it pointed out that once a plant gets used to above ambiant CO2 levels, lower levels will result in stunted growth. Several articles followed this one. I ran my own series of modest tests and found it to be very true.

This actually ended my use of CO2 enrichment foir several years. I found that I actually got the same or, even better growth without CO2 because I was not maintaining the levels consistant enough. Then in around 2001, I visited my first totally sealed grow room. It was also when I met Commercial J. The room was running 1500 ppm with a very tight deadband. As I stood in the room watching the CO2 meter, I noticed it never got above 1500, or below 1450. The temp was 80F, the humidity 50%, and everything looked like an operating room. Commerciual J explained to me that the A/C units were oversized enough to bring the room temp down to UNDER 70F if he desired. He could drop the RH to under 30% if need be, as well. He had total control. I knew that this solved the problem with fluctuating CO2 levels. Like you, Wood, I did not like the idea of using an A/C unit during the colder winter days. Shit, why us A/C when I have all this cold ass air right here, just waiting to be pumped into the grow. In a few days Commercial J had me convinced that it was the only way if I wanted those perfect CO2 levels and tight temp and RH deadbands.

Wood, I believe that both myself and Tommyo are "mentally capable" (your quote, and suprisingly insulting coming from you) of using the outside air to cool the grow room. It's a choice to not introduce outside air, and instead continue to condition the air already inside the grow. I hope we can all take a step back from this before people start saying things they don't mean. It's just a style of growing. Certainly not worth an argument.

The concept of a sealed grow op requires _totally sealing_ the room from any air exchange. A/C and dehumidifiers are used to maintain the atmosphere at the desired levels. Even when it's asshole cold outside, the A/C is still used rather than venting. I fully know how inefficient and silly that sounds. But, it is how a totally sealed grow op works. Many air conditioners are not well suited for sealed grows. The portable units, even the dual hose models, create an air exchange. Many window units exchange air, as well. This little bit of exchange defeats the whole purpose behind he sealed grow. Our whole goal here is to only have to provide the CO2 that the plants use, and whatever CO2 escapes when we open the door.


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## zibra (Sep 21, 2011)

Very nice tread.


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## TheLastWood (Sep 21, 2011)

Gardener none of my posts have been directed at you, I know your perfectly capable. My point is physical possibility and his capability are not on the same plane.

Gardener, you said you will have emergency exhaust for rapid cooling, by tommys definition its no longer a sealed grow. Every grow has circumstances, to say it has to be sealed 100% 24/7/365 no air exchange ever! Well that's just stupid, and wrong. 

Either way I'm done with it, I'm here for your grow gardener, not his.


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 21, 2011)

The realm of physical possibility is not hampered by my capability since I am a certified Master Gardener and can also spell.
Please, I don't know why you have an attitude.
And emergency fans that would only kick on in the event of catastrophic A/C failure would not really count as unsealed because at that point, the name of the game is STOP THE BUILDING FROM BURNING DOWN.. silly dude..


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## TheLastWood (Sep 21, 2011)

tommyo3000 said:


> To everyone who thinks you can have a sealed room and vent, please look up the definition of "contradiction."
> 
> You do not understand that* THE NUMBER ONE THING in a sealed room IS TOTAL ENCLOSURE 100% 24/7/365. There is NO other option for CGE. The definition of CGE is a sealed room. If you add a fan, you do not have a CGE.
> 
> ...


Now I'm done.


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 21, 2011)

Oh, so a fan that is never used unless the place is about to burn down counts as unsealed?
Then the door to the growroom also makes it impossible to have a sealed grow. 
Great reasoning.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 21, 2011)

tommyo3000 said:


> Oh, so a fan that is never used unless the place is about to burn down counts as unsealed?
> Then the door to the growroom also makes it impossible to have a sealed grow.
> Great reasoning.


Yeah, not trying to fan the flames here at all. I agree with you and CG on this, but I think it boils down to semantics on lastwood's end. I think what he's calling a sealed grow, isn't what people are referring to in general when talking about CEA (or whatever acronym you want to use). Controlled environment agriculture is as you've said, 100% sealed to outside air exchange. 

Vented light hoods don't count as "venting" if they're well sealed against leaks. The emergency fans that CG has installed don't count either, as long as there is also either an electronic damper, good quality backdraft damper (or two). The grow remains sealed in all times except for emergency cooling. I like that setup the best myself, but I vent (and thus waste co2). 

Wolv


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## MrEDuck (Sep 21, 2011)

Why don't we all go smoke a bowl and chill?


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## collective gardener (Sep 21, 2011)

MrEDuck said:


> Why don't we all go smoke a bowl and chill?


 
That's what I'm talking about. 

Wood, you know I love ya, Bro.

I think Wolverines is right and all three of us gave WAY too much weight to a semantics difference. How about none of us waste any more time going down a negative trip that's jusr not necessary. I'll post a couple pics taken yesterday to put a bow on the issue. 

Thanks Wolverine for the keen insight, and fire supression skills.

Tommyo, sounds like you and I have very similar growing styles.


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## TheLastWood (Sep 21, 2011)

K gardener


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## collective gardener (Sep 21, 2011)

Pic 1. These are not my buds! LOL. Commercial J let me take a few pics of his drying room at his home grow. The fucker just pulled 7 Lbs. from 4 - 1000 watt lights dimmed to 750 watts.

This sickly little guy is actually a very healthy Tahoe OG x Chem Dawg. I did some mild super-cropping to even out the canopy. I tried the finished product from this cut and was blown away. It was so good that I just knew it would be a small yielder. There was a time when I was the king of getting good yields from small OG's. Unfortunately, it involved around 6 plants per sq ft. This legal med grow doesn't allow those plant numbers. So, I'll play around with these to see what I can do with my plant count.

Pic 3. This is a bud my wife just trimmed.

Pic 4. A new batch cooking under a T-5. I give them about 5 days under a T-5 to get them ready for the 1000 watt MH's. The plants with the orange zip ties are a new Bubba pheno we call the D-Bub. It smells and tastes the same as our old standby Bub, but with a higher yield. Commercial J has an 8 x 24 table loaded with 150 D-Bubs. The main yield difference is the cola. Our original Bub Cola was about 4-5 buds tall. The D-Bub's colas are around 10-12 buds tall. The colas on topped plants are all 8" - 12" tall...and dense as fuck. We have a D-Bub mother and about 20 test plants going into production this next cycle.

Pic 5. Here's an overview of the bloom room. I fucked up the schedule and don't have nearly as many plants in there as I should have. Whenever this happens I just spread out the plants. I figure that while we're waiting for additional plants to finish veging, the existing plants can benefit by recieving the additional light when spread out. I'm making sure this won't happen again by just always having 30 plants in every stage of veg. This way there is always a group of plants within one week of being ready to bloom. Excess plants are just thrown away. I'll continue this "shotgun" method until we can totally fine tune the cloning schedule. 

Sorry about the washed out orange pics. I'll try to get in there right when the lights go out for some better quality pics.


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## collective gardener (Sep 21, 2011)

View attachment 1799189View attachment 1799184View attachment 1799183View attachment 1799182View attachment 1799181

Pic 1. Tahoe x Chem Dawg 3 weeks into bloom. 

Pic 2. These are not my plants. This is Commercial J's harvest from his house grow op. He pulled 7 Lbs of Bubba from 4 - 1000 watt lights dimmed to 750 watts. He is the best grower I have ever met.

Pic 3. Some plants cooking under a T-5. I like to five them 5 days under the T-5 to root into the blocks before placing them under the 1000 watt MH's.

Pic 4. Overall bloom room pic. The room doesn't have as many plants as it should have. I botched the schedule and don't have any plants ready. I just spread out the existing plants to take advantage of all that extra light.

Pic 5. Here's a Bubba nug my wife had just trimmed.


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## TheLastWood (Sep 21, 2011)

Damn u typed that all twice? 

That's dedication


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 21, 2011)

How did your friend pull that much off of 4kw? what kind of setup?
thanks!


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## SupaM (Sep 21, 2011)

CG, Your work inspires me to do more in my personal garden. I have learned a lot about doing things bigger and better reading your posts, and of course, enjoying the pics. Thanks, and All the Best!


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 22, 2011)

hell yah CG very nice harvest


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## collective gardener (Sep 22, 2011)

OMG. I typed the first post...tried to post, bu lost it...and re-typed a shorter version. Then...5 mins later...it shows up posted. 

Tommyo, Commercial J got 7 from 3Kw. He runs his 1k lights dimmed to 750 watts. The reflectors are Magnum XXXL's. Crazy thing is, this is just his home "hobby" grow op. His commercial op is in my same warehouse complex and is the best looking op I've ever seen...in person, online, or in High Times. 

His home op grows the same Bubba cut that we grow (I got it from him). His rooted cuts go into 4" rockwool blocks under a 1000 watt MH on a track style light mover. He tops at around the 6th node. Once the plants show good growth after topping, he up cans into 6 qt containers filled with 80% rockwool croutons and 20% #4 perlite. Everything is hand watered once per day with 1.5 EC Cutting Edge 3 part nutes and 2ml/gal magnesium sulfate added in.

The last run was 28 plants on an 8x8 tray. He usually runs closer to 35 plants, but had some laggers this run that he tossed (meaning, gave to me). 

The atmosphere is 78F, 40% - 50% RH, and 1000ppm CO2 with 50ppm of deadband.

He's a leaf removing machine. Anyone who shit talks removing fan leaves needs to look at his results. He removes most interior fan leaves all throughout veg. After the stretch in bloom he lolipops and removes any outside fan leaves that interfere with neighboring plants...usually most of them. The plants look pretty lanky after this thinning, but they fill in quite nice with smaller leaves that don't shade bud sites.

He does a tapered flush. Week 7 gets 1.0 EC and week 8 gets pure RO water.

The plants finish about 36" tall with multiple main branches. Pre-98 Bubba doesn't form large colas, nor are the bud sites very close together (better than most OG's, but nothing like Casey Jones or Blue Dream). His high yield comes from the _size_ of the individual buds. They're fucking huge...tennis ball size of pure fat (calyxes). He credits the large bud size to low deadband on the CO2, made possible by totally sealed room. He never enters room more than once per day, and always just 30 minutes before lights off. By doing this, the CO2 remains totally consistant all throughout the day. 

As you can see, he keeps it simple. He's been growing this same strain for 7+ years now. It took him 4 years before he broke 6 Lbs. There's something to be said for sticking with a strain and learning to grow it perfectly.


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## C.Indica (Sep 22, 2011)

Amazing story, I recieved a Lemon Skunk clone that I intend to keep around with me for a very long time.
Any chance you could get us some photos of his commercial op?


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 22, 2011)

CG- thank you thank you thank you!

I have a 3kw flower room BUT my problem has been insufficient vegging. Everything is dialed in just like your buddy as far as environment...
Sweet!
I just need to veg bigger plants to fill my room up fuller..
That was great info. thank you for taking the time!

I use GH three part -- i have been reading about Cutting Edge Solutions, tho....

WHy does your buddy not use their chelated Cal and Mag?
Did he used to use GH Flora Series three part?

Any opinion on Cutting Edge over GH Flora?


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## collective gardener (Sep 22, 2011)

tommyo3000 said:


> CG- thank you thank you thank you!
> 
> I have a 3kw flower room BUT my problem has been insufficient vegging. Everything is dialed in just like your buddy as far as environment...
> Sweet!
> ...


Both of us spent a decade with GH Flora. I think every grower has some GH experience. My good friend and Weed Super Hero Mellow Kitty can take a toke and tell you if GH was used to grow that sample.

Cutting edge has the 3 parts and 3 additives. Both Commercial J and myself us the Mag Amp additive which is magnesium sulfate. The other 2 additives are basically Ca and K. The nice thing about the Mag Amp when using rockwool is that it lowers the PH and keeps it there. 50 ml of Mag Amp in 30 gallons of nutes will put the PH right at 5.5 - 5.7, ideal for rockwool. 

I'm trying some AN with this run with mixed results. The bud set was great and my node spacing improved. However, I'm getting quite a bit of necrosis on the leaf margins...something that never happened with Cutting Edge. That's the one great thing about Cutting Edge. It may not be some super turbo charged fortified nute, but it produces green healthy plants every time. I have never had so much as a blemish in a leaf using cutting edge. 

As far as Cutting Edge vs GH, we prefer the Cutting Edge. The reason is this: Cutting Edge has produced 100% blemish free plants regardless of the strain with 1000ppm and using exactly as directed. I cannot say the same for GH. In the many MANY years I used GH i often had to make adjustments in ppm and also add cal mag and some form of k to prevent leaf blemishes. I also noticed that with Cutting Edge that when we start the flush, it takes a week before we start to see leaf color changes. This tells me the plant was well loaded with proper nute balance. With GH as soon as we cut off the nutes the color change was quite fast, tellling me the plant was living "on the edge" of a nute def. 

You're right in that great yields are all about the veg. I've said it a million times, great yields are the result of healthy plants in the perfect canopy shape/density. I believe that canopy shape can be determined in veg. Blasting the plants with as much light as they can take in veg keeps node distance short and makes for a bushy plant. Why can you not get what you need in veg?


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## lamabile85 (Sep 22, 2011)

Much Props for you and this grow and thanks for your advice concerning the myth of the "Cultivators License." Your thread is motivational to do what you're doing especially on the scale you're at. Kudos!


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## collective gardener (Sep 22, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> Amazing story, I recieved a Lemon Skunk clone that I intend to keep around with me for a very long time.
> Any chance you could get us some photos of his commercial op?


I can get some pics next time I'm there. I just have to remember to bring my camera. 

Pics don't even do it justice, though. It's a series of several rooms in what can only be described as a growing facility. He runs around 40 lights in bloom on a 20/20 flip settup. There are 2 veg rooms., a mother room, a clone room, a ballast/controls room, drying room, and trimming/mixing/hashing/hanging out room. I'm talking 2 - 5 ton A/C units. The A/C is a central system with beautifully installed hard ducting, motorized dampeners, and centralized dehimidification system. Anyways, I'll see about some pics in the next few days. He may not want any pics online. I'll have to ask.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 22, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Both of us spent a decade with GH Flora. I think every grower has some GH experience. My good friend and Weed Super Hero Mellow Kitty can take a toke and tell you if GH was used to grow that sample.
> 
> Cutting edge has the 3 parts and 3 additives. Both Commercial J and myself us the Mag Amp additive which is magnesium sulfate. The other 2 additives are basically Ca and K. The nice thing about the Mag Amp when using rockwool is that it lowers the PH and keeps it there. 50 ml of Mag Amp in 30 gallons of nutes will put the PH right at 5.5 - 5.7, ideal for rockwool.
> 
> ...


Word on the veg time being critical, also allowing the plants a week or two to root into their final container prior to initiating flower. With proper veg/transplanting I'm pulling an average of 1200g/1kw light. w00t


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## C.Indica (Sep 22, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I can get some pics next time I'm there. I just have to remember to bring my camera.
> 
> Pics don't even do it justice, though. It's a series of several rooms in what can only be described as a growing facility. He runs around 40 lights in bloom on a 20/20 flip settup. There are 2 veg rooms., a mother room, a clone room, a ballast/controls room, drying room, and trimming/mixing/hashing/hanging out room. I'm talking 2 - 5 ton A/C units. The A/C is a central system with beautifully installed hard ducting, motorized dampeners, and centralized dehimidification system. Anyways, I'll see about some pics in the next few days. He may not want any pics online. I'll have to ask.


Sweet, I'd love to see it, if possible.

Sounds like something you wish you could have, haha.
Why the two veg rooms? Are they seperate schedules or just overflow?

And when you say 20/20, do you mean lights? And does that mean he runs 30/10+ for veg?
What are you and his personal observations on this lighting schedule, and how does he keep track of lights on times?

I totally understand about the internet, it's a wonder so many people can safely post pictures on this website.
CG you literally pump dozens of ideas into my skull with every read, thanks.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 22, 2011)

He means that there are 40 lights total, but only 20 run at a time, using a flipbox to control the cycles. Nothing to do with hours on/off.


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## MrEDuck (Sep 22, 2011)

Man commercial J's grow sounds impressive. And 7lbs of your Bubba from 3kW?! I'm trying to imagine what he'd get from a high yielding strain.
I have a question that maybe one of you can answer. This run I had two plants that took almost 8weeks to show preflowers. Both stretched like the other plants, they had ample light and nutes. I've never heard of this before. Up until they finally showed sex we were referring to them as the amazing asexual marijuana plants. I'm keeping them as curiosities for now but wanted to know if anyone here had any ideas. I made a thread but no one replied. Surely I'm not unique.


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## collective gardener (Sep 22, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> Sweet, I'd love to see it, if possible.
> 
> Sounds like something you wish you could have, haha.
> Why the two veg rooms? Are they seperate schedules or just overflow?
> ...


 
As Wolverine says, there are 2 bloom rooms. Each room holds 20 lights, for a total of 40 lights. However, he only has 20 ballasts (actually, 10 Lumatek dual 600 watt ballasts). The ballasts run 24/7 and the flip box sends the juice to one room for 12 hours and then "flips" to the other room for 12 hours. This is the best way to utilize every amp of power the building has to offer. It also avoids that 12/12 power draw sig that some folks are concerned about. Instead, the power sig is on all the time.

The 2 veg rooms are because each veg room services a bloom room. Commercial J uses all T-5's for veg in his commercial grow. The low heat lights and 60% humidity allow him to do his entire veg in 4x4x4 rockwool blocks. Those are then buries in 80% rockwool croutons and 20% perlite the day they go into bloom. This is because of space restrictions. There would not be enough room in veg for all those plants in 6 qt pots. 

The clone room has over a 1000 plants capacity. He uses a fraction of that. But he does clone 2 times the amount of cuts he will need. He eliminates the biggest 10% and the smallest 40%. The guy is totally anal about even canopy height. This is because he puts the 600 watt lights _very_ close to the plants tops.

I should not that his grow is 100% California compliant. Their collective has hundreds of patients. He has the same attorney as we do, who is super conservative on what he'll let us do.


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## collective gardener (Sep 22, 2011)

Pic 5 is our new "D Bubba" mother plant. This is one vigorous Bubbster.

Pic 8 is the Tahoe x Chem Dawg test plant. I blasted this one with ALOT of MH light to keep is short. We'll see if I can get some yield from this one. I'm trying to find the best way to grow this stuff. The quality is so good that I want to get it into production soon.

Pic 10 is the Tahoe x Chem a little past weeh 3 of bloom. This is another tester, grown large, lollipopped and super cropped. It's starting to show some promise. This one will come down to bud size.

The last pic is the tahoe cross mothers from Commercial J. As you can see, the T-5's just are not enough light for veging this strain. The plant is too stratched to even work with. I'll be turning the whole thing into clones and tossing the rest.

Most of the other pics are the bloom room. You can see the perpetual sittuation going on. About half the room is on week 6 and looking quite nice. The AN gave me some necrosis on the leaf margins that I'm not too pleased with. Fortunately, the bud size and node spacing are great. I hit these with Yellow Bottle final today. That stuff is pretty good for pumping up the buds...better than gravity in my experience.


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 22, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Both of us spent a decade with GH Flora. I think every grower has some GH experience. My good friend and Weed Super Hero Mellow Kitty can take a toke and tell you if GH was used to grow that sample.
> 
> Cutting edge has the 3 parts and 3 additives. Both Commercial J and myself us the Mag Amp additive which is magnesium sulfate. The other 2 additives are basically Ca and K. The nice thing about the Mag Amp when using rockwool is that it lowers the PH and keeps it there. 50 ml of Mag Amp in 30 gallons of nutes will put the PH right at 5.5 - 5.7, ideal for rockwool.
> 
> You're right in that great yields are all about the veg. I've said it a million times, great yields are the result of healthy plants in the perfect canopy shape/density. I believe that canopy shape can be determined in veg. Blasting the plants with as much light as they can take in veg keeps node distance short and makes for a bushy plant. Why can you not get what you need in veg?


Wow! and another thank you. This is great info to chew on. I have been using GH Flora Series for a few years now without most of the additives. I like to use some silica and fulvic acid, but that is about it on extras.. I kept things clean with H2O2 or bleach before getting a reservoir chiller for my nutrient solution.

I have no reason for my poor vegging.. I basically have two 3x3 flood/drain tables that I veg in, but the tables are too small and shade out the bottoms.. I just didn't plan out the veg thing at all. I "MEANT TO" build another controller and ebb and grow system for veg so that they could explore their 5 gallons of hydroton in veg. I did not get around to it. To compound it, I have had pretty damn huge plants and good yields vegging in the tables and throwing 'em in to the ebb and grow buckets at 12/12.. however too many buckets.. like 20 per side of flower room... 

I figure with better vegging I could do 8 plants per side of flower room.. so 4KW total and 16 plants total..

I've got everything dialed-in except the veg system and technique.. 
I am building the abb and grow for the veg room this weekend.. I have the parts and am pumped to start growing some thick canopy..

I do not have a community of grower friends in "real life"... Well, I do, but they are so old school or lazy about it. That's cool for them, but I have been obsessed with cannabis and growing for...hmmm.. 18 years probably to the day ( it was a september evening in the little league dugouts when the "jamaican red hair" BLEW MY MIND forever)  Point being, thank you for helping me out with your time and expertise. I value your contributions to the community.


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## Beansly (Sep 23, 2011)

Hey CG. I want to say that I'm a big fan of your work and philosophy(I sound like a fanboy....I'm not a fanboy...). For a long time now I've been struggling with the idea of moving to hydroponic grows but I'm scared to death that I'll be losing something if I switch from organics. I know it's a myth but I come from a family of farmers and it's been kind of pounded in my head. Please convince me that the weed isn't gonna taste like crappy chemicals.
A friend of mine want to invest in me and my grow and a big part of the budget is going to soil and organic amendments, but idk because I just wanna go hydro but I don't wanna grow crap. Please help me.


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## fatboyOGOF (Sep 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 1708873
> Here's a 4 week Bubba Mother. She's one of 5 large mothers we decided to bloom out as a part of going to way smaller plants.
> 
> 
> ...


i just started wandering throught this thread and will be at it for awhile. 

it's a very impressive set up and grow! Well done! 

i always found it odd, that from the day we start to grow, we hear to keep the lights as close to the plant as possible, yet whenever i see a large grow, the lights always appear to be 3 or more feet above them. is this just to cover more area? does the cluster of so many lights, produce so much light, that 3 or 4 feet off the plants doesn't noticeably reduce the bud weight?


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## vilify (Sep 23, 2011)

Beansly said:


> Hey CG. I want to say that I'm a big fan of your work and philosophy(I sound like a fanboy....I'm not a fanboy...). For a long time now I've been struggling with the idea of moving to hydroponic grows but I'm scared to death that I'll be losing something if I switch from organics. I know it's a myth but I come from a family of farmers and it's been kind of pounded in my head. Please convince me that the weed isn't gonna taste like crappy chemicals.
> A friend of mine want to invest in me and my grow and a big part of the budget is going to soil and organic amendments, but idk because I just wanna go hydro but I don't wanna grow crap. Please help me.


you can do organic hydroponics. problem solved


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## Beansly (Sep 23, 2011)

vilify said:


> you can do organic hydroponics. problem solved


 I've heard that organic hydroponics is a lie being used by the nutrinent companies to sell bottles. I thought hydro should be all chemical? The beauty of it is the amount of control you have.


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## collective gardener (Sep 23, 2011)

Beansly said:


> Hey CG. I want to say that I'm a big fan of your work and philosophy(I sound like a fanboy....I'm not a fanboy...). For a long time now I've been struggling with the idea of moving to hydroponic grows but I'm scared to death that I'll be losing something if I switch from organics. I know it's a myth but I come from a family of farmers and it's been kind of pounded in my head. Please convince me that the weed isn't gonna taste like crappy chemicals.
> A friend of mine want to invest in me and my grow and a big part of the budget is going to soil and organic amendments, but idk because I just wanna go hydro but I don't wanna grow crap. Please help me.


First off, I prefer organic weed. I can taste a difference. When I grow outdoor, I grow organic. I've grown many live soil indoor grows, as well. 

Weed grown with chem nutes should not taste like chemicals. Many growers jam nutes down the plants throat and never flush. This would result in a poor tasting product. It doesn't have to be this way. Properly grown and flushed, chem plants can taste absolutely wonderful, with zero residual chemical flavor. The real difference between a live soil organic plant and a properly grown chem plant is complexity of flavor and smell. The organic plant just has more complexity. It's like the difference between a pasta dish made with 5 ingredients and a pasta dish made with 10 ingredients. Both dishes could taste absolutely wonderful. In fact, both dishes could be world class. But...the 10 ingredient dish will have more flavors working and will therefore have a more complex taste. An organic plant is much the same. But, there's nothing to keep you from growing world class weed with chemical nutrients.

We will soom be testing various liquid organic nutes, and there effect on flavor. I will be trying to determine if that organic complexity can be had without actual live soil. Can we use refined organic nutes to give us that organic flavor in, say, a sterile rockwool media? Can we use 300-500ppm chemical base nute and another 500-700ppm organic nutes to produce organic flavored weed? Basically, can we have the control and predictability of chemicals with the outcome of organics? Or, is it the "live soil" component that provides that organic kick? The next question is naturally, can we generate a micro-herd in rockwool and grow live soil in the Hugo Blocks? I will attempt to answer all of these questions over the next year or so. I would invite other growers to help me and participate.

That all being said, Beansly, large commercial ops are easiest to run using chemical nutes. Actual live soil would be a nightmare in an operation my size. I'm sure you can produce some outstanding buds using chemical nutes. In the end, it's still strain strain strain that determines 95% of the quality of your smoke. The grower determines how much of it you get. Granted, you can fuck up the quality, but it's still imperative you start with killer genetics. Not anything you can order online...for the most part.

With all that being said, if you feel strong toward growing organic, I would be the last person to talk you out of it. Shit, I want to buy some. If you are comfortable growing live soil in a good sized grow, fucking do it, Killer. I'm sure with sound planning and layout you could design an op that keeps the mess to a minimum. If you have the skills to make a live soil grow produce great yields, and don't mind the mess, you should do it. I know I'm supposed to be talking you into chemicals. Sorry.


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## collective gardener (Sep 23, 2011)

fatboyOGOF said:


> i just started wandering throught this thread and will be at it for awhile.
> 
> it's a very impressive set up and grow! Well done!
> 
> i always found it odd, that from the day we start to grow, we hear to keep the lights as close to the plant as possible, yet whenever i see a large grow, the lights always appear to be 3 or more feet above them. is this just to cover more area? does the cluster of so many lights, produce so much light, that 3 or 4 feet off the plants doesn't noticeably reduce the bud weight?


I'm not sure which pic you're refering to. The pair of lights against the wall are raised up because those plants just went into bloom. The HPS lights are quite a bit brighter than the MH's, and I like the plants to have a couple days to get used to being in the bloom room under the brighter lights before I give them full strength. The typical distance I use is around 24". The Tahoe X Chem Dawgs seem to like a little closer. I use a light meter to adjust the light distance. If you lower too close to the plants directly under the light, lighting suffers on adjacent plants. I try to find a nice balance between all the plants. Even with that, I still move all the plants every few days, and ratate in position every day.


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 23, 2011)

CG,

I study commercial hydroponics operations to get my techniques from... 
As far as adding organics to hydroponics is concerned, you will need to culture the microherd in the hydro system. This is easier said than done - depending on your type of hydroponic medium. Coco will colonize with fungi, bacteria, etc... Hydroton- not so much. BUT there is a way that people grow with medium-less hydro or hydroton AND grow beneficials. You can fill a stocking with perlite and innoculate with your powdered fungi and bacteria and drop this into your rez. That will give them a place to grow.
Alternatively, you can make a biofilter with a bucket full of bioballs which are plastic balls that your spread your innoculum on... You fill a one gallon bucket with these, sprinkle on innoculum, and then have your rez return splash over this bucket on it's way back to the rez.
In Europe, GH sells a biofilter like this to use with their subculture B.


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## Beansly (Sep 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> First off, I prefer organic weed. I can taste a difference. When I grow outdoor, I grow organic. I've grown many live soil indoor grows, as well.
> 
> Weed grown with chem nutes should not taste like chemicals. Many growers jam nutes down the plants throat and never flush. This would result in a poor tasting product. It doesn't have to be this way. Properly grown and flushed, chem plants can taste absolutely wonderful, with zero residual chemical flavor. The real difference between a live soil organic plant and a properly grown chem plant is complexity of flavor and smell. The organic plant just has more complexity. It's like the difference between a pasta dish made with 5 ingredients and a pasta dish made with 10 ingredients. Both dishes could taste absolutely wonderful. In fact, both dishes could be world class. But...the 10 ingredient dish will have more flavors working and will therefore have a more complex taste. An organic plant is much the same. But, there's nothing to keep you from growing world class weed with chemical nutrients.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that CG. I guess I was really asking you to talk to me about hydroponics. I agree organic is better, but I guess I'm confused about your operation. You grow in rockwool yet you consider you grow organic? Are CES nutrients considered organic?


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## fatboyOGOF (Sep 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I'm not sure which pic you're refering to. The pair of lights against the wall are raised up because those plants just went into bloom. The HPS lights are quite a bit brighter than the MH's, and I like the plants to have a couple days to get used to being in the bloom room under the brighter lights before I give them full strength. The typical distance I use is around 24". The Tahoe X Chem Dawgs seem to like a little closer. I use a light meter to adjust the light distance. If you lower too close to the plants directly under the light, lighting suffers on adjacent plants. I try to find a nice balance between all the plants. Even with that, I still move all the plants every few days, and ratate in position every day.


 
yeah, i keep the light up higher the first couple of days in the flower tent too. 24" is good for a typical height. it could also be that a lot of the pics i see, have lights up higher to better show the grow . i watched pineapple express and i was thinking someone should have pointed out that their lights were too high! i used to rotate my plants but i only move them a little bit while watering these days. i've picked up some sloppy habits over the years.


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## collective gardener (Sep 23, 2011)

Beansly said:


> Thanks for that CG. I guess I was really asking you to talk to me about hydroponics. I agree organic is better, but I guess I'm confused about your operation. You grow in rockwool yet you consider you grow organic? Are CES nutrients considered organic?


If I gave the impression that I consider my grow organic, I'm sorry. I consider my grow hydroponic with chem nutes. I will be trying to colonize a microheard in rockwool in the future. I do add some organic teas to my nute solution to broaden the nutrient source. The organic nutes I use are highly refined.

I aplogize if I didn't address your question well enough. I'm not quite sure what you want to know. As I stated, you can grow some very high quality meds hydroponically. By weekly flushing and a thorough flush the last 2 weeks of bloom, you can remove any potential chemical taste. It's ot really a chemical taste so much as incomplete burning.

If you can grow live soil organic with good yields, you'll find hydroponic/soiless gardening very easy. For larger commercial gardens, I prefer coco/perlite or rockwool. Hand watering drain to waste everyday minimizes any chances of serious plant problems. It also forces you into the garden everyday. If you see a plant is not taking as much water as the rest of the grow, chances are it has a problem that needs addressing. Only by hand watering can you detect these issues early on, before any signs appear.


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## Beansly (Sep 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> If I gave the impression that I consider my grow organic, I'm sorry. I consider my grow hydroponic with chem nutes. I will be trying to colonize a microheard in rockwool in the future. I do add some organic teas to my nute solution to broaden the nutrient source. The organic nutes I use are highly refined.
> 
> I aplogize if I didn't address your question well enough. I'm not quite sure what you want to know. As I stated, you can grow some very high quality meds hydroponically. By weekly flushing and a thorough flush the last 2 weeks of bloom, you can remove any potential chemical taste. It's ot really a chemical taste so much as incomplete burning.
> 
> If you can grow live soil organic with good yields, you'll find hydroponic/soiless gardening very easy. For larger commercial gardens, I prefer coco/perlite or rockwool. Hand watering drain to waste everyday minimizes any chances of serious plant problems. It also forces you into the garden everyday. If you see a plant is not taking as much water as the rest of the grow, chances are it has a problem that needs addressing. Only by hand watering can you detect these issues early on, before any signs appear.


 I should be apologizing, I didn't ask the right question, but somehow you intuited what I wanted to ask and answered my questions lol. Sorry about the confusion lol.
My issues were that I wasn't sure if you could get good tasting and smelling bud from hydroponics. There's a lot of arguing about it online and I thought I'd just ask someone who I know has experience with it. Thanks for clearing up my doubts about hydro.


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## dmo123 (Sep 23, 2011)

dats crazy we need to talk


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## withoutAchance (Sep 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> We thought about dogs. It's just if someone every poisened them, or killed them however to get in, I would never forgive myself. I just love dogs way too much to put them in harms way. My alarm guy is setting up this deal where we will be texted if an alarm is tripped. No cops. Unfortunately, my lawyer says that it pisses the cops off big time if you're broken into and they are not called. My fantasy is still to have the place rigged to trap them inside. "Put the fucking lotion on your skin!"


I did not read the entire thread yet bit it is the state law enforcement officers job to protect your grow op and this is something we need to stress and fight for more as basically we are powerless agaist theaifs at our grow op as we can't have weapons on the grounds. Yet despenceries have atleast 1 armed gaurd.


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## tommyo3000 (Sep 23, 2011)

withoutAchance said:


> I did not read the entire thread yet bit it is the state law enforcement officers job to protect your grow op and this is something we need to stress and fight for more as basically we are powerless agaist theaifs at our grow op as we can't have weapons on the grounds. Yet despenceries have atleast 1 armed gaurd.


Can you have nonlethal weapons like Guns that shoot rubber bullets or beanbags, tazers, etc?


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## collective gardener (Sep 24, 2011)

tommyo3000 said:


> Can you have nonlethal weapons like Guns that shoot rubber bullets or beanbags, tazers, etc?


I'm a firm believer that keeping the grow location as secret as possible is the best weapon. That, and the polar bear cage we have protecting our storefront door. It is a shame we're not afforded the same protection as other businesses. I would never call the police short of some sort of life threatening event. There is insurance available for theft. I looked into it, The problem is, a police report is needed to collect on any claims. Fuck that.

We do have a security system that will text me and Commercial J should a break in occur. It will also film the entire event. It's come down to a few grow ops banding together to provide our own threat response team. I can be at my shop in 5 minutes. It's just one more reason for grow ops not to compete, but support eachother. Imagine what we could do with 20 or 30 ops all banded together in a loose organization. Everyone could toss a few bucks into the hat and actually create something greater than the sum of the group. It wouldn't even be necessary to know the location of the other ops. Other businesses do similar things...why not us?


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## collective gardener (Sep 24, 2011)

dmo123 said:


> dats crazy we need to talk


 
Ok. Talk. I'm all ears.


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## Beansly (Sep 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I'm a firm believer that keeping the grow location as secret as possible is the best weapon. That, and the polar bear cage we have protecting our storefront door. It is a shame we're not afforded the same protection as other businesses. I would never call the police short of some sort of life threatening event. There is insurance available for theft. I looked into it, The problem is, a police report is needed to collect on any claims. Fuck that.
> 
> We do have a security system that will text me and Commercial J should a break in occur. It will also film the entire event. It's come down to a few grow ops banding together to provide our own threat response team. I can be at my shop in 5 minutes. It's just one more reason for grow ops not to compete, but support eachother. Imagine what we could do with 20 or 30 ops all banded together in a loose organization. Everyone could toss a few bucks into the hat and actually create something greater than the sum of the group. It wouldn't even be necessary to know the location of the other ops. Other businesses do similar things...why not us?


There's always the mafia?? I hear they do insurance... 
lol


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## withoutAchance (Sep 24, 2011)

I still don't get it no police report no insurance no gun no protection and even if I hqd one u go to prison for murder so in all reality it is grow at ur own risk and grow for ur self not profit/donations. What if u catch a person or 4 in a cage then what who do u give them to not the police, alps I'm saying is the star needs to step up and back the legal grow ops and make it clear to the local LEOs that it is legal. Otherwise yes hide but u have how many people in it with u and more to come u will piss some one off evemtully they might even have a key. Ok to much speculation but I lived in places were ur not allowed to call the police and things only get worse escalated. And of growers can't use the officers there taxxes pay for then its going to become grower Vs theifs to the death to no no end.


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## collective gardener (Sep 24, 2011)

withoutAchance said:


> I still don't get it no police report no insurance no gun no protection and even if I hqd one u go to prison for murder so in all reality it is grow at ur own risk and grow for ur self not profit/donations. What if u catch a person or 4 in a cage then what who do u give them to not the police, alps I'm saying is the star needs to step up and back the legal grow ops and make it clear to the local LEOs that it is legal. Otherwise yes hide but u have how many people in it with u and more to come u will piss some one off evemtully they might even have a key. Ok to much speculation but I lived in places were ur not allowed to call the police and things only get worse escalated. And of growers can't use the officers there taxxes pay for then its going to become grower Vs theifs to the death to no no end.


 
I've always said "it's not a problem if there's no solution". It seems you're kind of on a negative, no one wins, just stop growing trip.


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## PotPower (Sep 24, 2011)

I am looking for a JOB or to become part of a collective also and you seem like the right "BUD" to get to know?!
Check out my Sig link and tell me if I have anything to offer.


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## collective gardener (Sep 24, 2011)

PotPower said:


> I am looking for a JOB or to become part of a collective also and you seem like the right "BUD" to get to know?!
> Check out my Sig link and tell me if I have anything to offer.


Your buds look very nice. I like the electrical settup and the RDWC, as well. Unfortunately, I'm not looking for any help right now.


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## PotPower (Sep 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Your buds look very nice. I like the electrical settup and the RDWC, as well. Unfortunately, I'm not looking for any help right now.


Thanks for the mention tho, would love to try some of your ladies!


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## collective gardener (Sep 24, 2011)

Me and Commercial J spent the day visiting our friends grow ops today. It was great to get out of mine and check out someone else's nightmare. One of our stops (Commercial M) is growing the Tahoe x Chem Dawg pheno that I'm playing with. He was the first one to get the cut, so his shit is the furthest along. OMG. We all thought it was going to be a micro-yielder, based on how it looks in week 4. Commercial M has a 4x4 tray with 12 plants in week 6. They're looking really fat. He said that just the last 5 days or so they almost doubled in size. We scoped them and it looks like they'll be done in another week. So, not only is it going to yield more than we thought, it finishes in 7 weeks! He'll get an LB easy. Of course, when I got back to my op I took 30 cuts from my Tahoe Mother right away. It's not over till it's over, but I'm thinking this may be the future of my op. All of my commercial buddies agree that this cut is one of the highest quality Kush's we've ever tried. It just has it all: great bag appeal, wonderful smell, tastes like a spice rack in smells the vape, and knocks you flat on your ass. I has small hopes because my experience with these strains is that they're very smal yielders. Seeing what I saw today made my year. Granted, Commercial M is a master grower, and his op is world class. But, I'm not too far behind, and we use mostly the same techniques. I'll be posting plenty of pics of the Tahoe so we can all follow its progress. We just have 3 test plants in bloom right now, but I'm going to be taking cuts as fast as my 2 mothers can produce them.


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## C.Indica (Sep 24, 2011)

"bad appeal" typo. In the kush description.

Wow a true 7 weeker, must be super heavy on the Afghanica/Indica side?
Can't wait to see the details, glad to hear you're having a happy moment.

Mind getting some shots of your gene pool? I want to see your mother keeping techniques.


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## TheLastWood (Sep 24, 2011)

There's already pics up if I'm not mistaken


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## collective gardener (Sep 24, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> "bad appeal" typo. In the kush description.
> 
> Wow a true 7 weeker, must be super heavy on the Afghanica/Indica side?
> Can't wait to see the details, glad to hear you're having a happy moment.
> ...


 
There's plenty of pics of my mothers in just the last few pic posts. I just got 2 new Tahoe x mothers from Commercial J that I can take pics of. It's not like the mothers show much...a big ol' bushy vegetating plant.


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## singingcrow (Sep 25, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> My rec. is renewed every year. I'm hoping that as we sign up new members I won't need to fall back on such a heavy rec to justify the plant numbers. We want 20-30 members total. The problem is finding trustworthy good people to join our collective. We also require that you need at least one ounce per week. It's a great way to operate. We will grow whatever strain our members want. I am even willing to grow organic plants for patients that really have a preference. Once we get the right amount of members, the price will be very reasonable: probably around $220.00/ounce.


Im in the Valley and would love to learn about your collective, join, and contribute. I plan to start a new 3X3 botanica ebb and flow indoor grow at the end of October. I was thinking of using LA Confidential or GDP. Send me a message if you are interested.


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## collective gardener (Sep 25, 2011)

singingcrow said:


> Im in the Valley and would love to learn about your collective, join, and contribute. I plan to start a new 3X3 botanica ebb and flow indoor grow at the end of October. I was thinking of using LA Confidential or GDP. Send me a message if you are interested.


 
I appreciate your interest. Unfortunately, we have a policy that all new members be recommended by an existing member. Also, the only members that work at the op (or even know the location) are myself, my wife, Commercial J, and our husband and wife trim team "Tokey" and "Mrs. Tokey". We were able to amass enough members to grow the amount of plants we like to grow. We're fortunate to have a bunch of heavy using members. Yesterday I calced out our members average age...it's 46! I thought it was younger, but we have only one member under 30, and a good bunch of heavy tokers in their 60's. This has to be some sort of record. I can't imagine any other collective with our amount of members having a higher average age. Start calling us the Geezer Ganja Group.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 25, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I appreciate your interest. Unfortunately, we have a policy that all new members be recommended by an existing member. Also, the only members that work at the op (or even know the location) are myself, my wife, Commercial J, and our husband and wife trim team "Tokey" and "Mrs. Tokey". We were able to amass enough members to grow the amount of plants we like to grow. We're fortunate to have a bunch of heavy using members. Yesterday I calced out our members average age...it's 46! I thought it was younger, but we have only one member under 30, and a good bunch of heavy tokers in their 60's. This has to be some sort of record. I can't imagine any other collective with our amount of members having a higher average age. Start calling us the Geezer Ganja Group.


There you go! When you all meet up you can call it the G3 summit.
Goddmamn I'm lame...


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## Puanatat (Sep 25, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I've always said "it's not a problem if there's no solution". It seems you're kind of on a negative, no one wins, just stop growing trip.


Absolute props. I'm yet to hear it better said. I couldn't plus rep you anymore if I tried.


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## singingcrow (Sep 26, 2011)

singingcrow said:


> Im in the Valley and would love to learn about your collective, join, and contribute. I plan to start a new 3X3 botanica ebb and flow indoor grow at the end of October. I was thinking of using LA Confidential or GDP. Send me a message if you are interested.


Sorry, I should have clarified. If I can donate any organically grown medicine that you are in need of, I'd like to help by donation. My personal goal is to help others with organic, dime-to-the-dollar natural medicine versus the use of drugs. I plan, this spring, to make a large batch of balm to be used topically in 2-3oz. glass jars. The balm is good for muscular distrophy and sclerosis patients (or really any patient who suffers from spacicity, migraines or nerve pain).

Also PS - I'm a 34 year old mature woman with a child, haha! Does this fit the old geezer catagory. Im the last of Gen X.... did I get that right? Let's see, we are on Gen Z now I think...


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## collective gardener (Sep 26, 2011)

singingcrow said:


> Sorry, I should have clarified. If I can donate any organically grown medicine that you are in need of, I'd like to help by donation. My personal goal is to help others with organic, dime-to-the-dollar natural medicine versus the use of drugs. I plan, this spring, to make a large batch of balm to be used topically in 2-3oz. glass jars. The balm is good for muscular distrophy and sclerosis patients (or really any patient who suffers from spacicity, migraines or nerve pain).
> 
> Also PS - I'm a 34 year old mature woman with a child, haha! Does this fit the old geezer catagory. Im the last of Gen X.... did I get that right? Let's see, we are on Gen Z now I think...


It is I who should aplologize. I'me always thinking people want something from me. How cynical is that? Not who I try to be. You may have seen my numerous outreaches, looking for needy folks to donate meds to. When I say donate, I mean donate...as in free....not donate, as in donate an Lb in exchange for $3,000! Shoot me a PM and let me know what you have in mind. I'm always open to discussions about different ops getting together to help others...and uplift the public's perception of us devil weed growers.

I guess at 40ish I'd be somewhere between gen X and gen Y. Gen X.5?

I've seen a very potent cannabalm treat tendonitis quite successfully. There's a future in that stuff.


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## collective gardener (Sep 26, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> There you go! When you all meet up you can call it the G3 summit.
> Goddmamn I'm lame...


 
Kinda lame...yes...but funny as fuck. Keep em coming.


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## Jozikins (Sep 26, 2011)

No word yet on the clinic. But I'm just going to ask my friend to hand out my email address. If I can get a decent list of people would you like to work together to start giving these people medicine? I have 2 plants set aside for 2 people I have promised to take care of at the moment, and I am expanding my numbers faster than I can keep up to ensure these people will be medicated. If we can get enough people that need help I am willing to match your donations. 

1) I care
2) I'd like the positive publicity coming to our scene of upstanding medical marijuana professionals.

I can work with them and get them the forms they need for their doctor's to sign off for a medical recommendation to use cannabis. That is not a problem.

EDIT:
update on the BioBizz. So far with the end of this first round and many plants in veg of all ages growing on it, I am not pleased. I am going to continue onward with it and try and get things to turn around. If I cannot I will reduce it use to outdoors and my test tent, and return to House & Garden until my supply is all gone, then I am going to try another organic line up, I am unsure of who, because I am not sure if I am just not applying enough or too much. It all looks like deficiency to me so I'd say not enough. But I do not like how much I have to use to make it "enough."


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## collective gardener (Sep 26, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> No word yet on the clinic. But I'm just going to ask my friend to hand out my email address. If I can get a decent list of people would you like to work together to start giving these people medicine? I have 2 plants set aside for 2 people I have promised to take care of at the moment, and I am expanding my numbers faster than I can keep up to ensure these people will be medicated. If we can get enough people that need help I am willing to match your donations.
> 
> 1) I care
> 2) I'd like the positive publicity coming to our scene of upstanding medical marijuana professionals.
> ...


 
Yes. I am interested in possibly working with you to get the meds out. I do need anyone I deal with to join our collective.

Have you tried Technoflora? It has a good rep for an all organic liquid. You can also start with around 400ppm chemical base, and then start slowly adding in organics. In time, you end up totally organic. This enables you to test, while keeping plants healthy.


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## MrEDuck (Sep 26, 2011)

How does one make a cannabalm?


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## collective gardener (Sep 26, 2011)

MrEDuck said:


> How does one make a cannabalm?


That's a question for Singing Crow. The shit I've seen was made by a friend.


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## theexpress (Sep 26, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> It is I who should aplologize. I'me always thinking people want something from me. How cynical is that? Not who I try to be. You may have seen my numerous outreaches, looking for needy folks to donate meds to. When I say donate, I mean donate...as in free....not donate, as in donate an Lb in exchange for $3,000! Shoot me a PM and let me know what you have in mind. I'm always open to discussions about different ops getting together to help others...and uplift the public's perception of us devil weed growers.
> 
> I guess at 40ish I'd be somewhere between gen X and gen Y. Gen X.5?
> 
> I've seen a very potent cannabalm treat tendonitis quite successfully. There's a future in that stuff.


 
lol can i get a donation???? its all in the name of charity.. hahahaha


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## TheLastWood (Sep 26, 2011)

From what I understand its similar to a tincture, made with leaves and stems for topical ointments and hemp oils and buds and trim for tinctures.


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## Jozikins (Sep 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Yes. I am interested in possibly working with you to get the meds out. I do need anyone I deal with to join our collective.
> 
> Have you tried Technoflora? It has a good rep for an all organic liquid. You can also start with around 400ppm chemical base, and then start slowly adding in organics. In time, you end up totally organic. This enables you to test, while keeping plants healthy.


 I'm fine exchanging information and signing co op papers. I know you are a professional. I am extremely fond of TechnaFlora, I haven't used the Pura Vida formula yet, but I hear good things from a 2 part organic formula. After all my expensive fertilizers are gone, Technaflora synthetic formula will probably become my new primary nutrient, I have had such amazing success in the past with it, so easy! The Pura Vida will definitely be in my test tent soon, seeing as it is so affordable and I have their other organic additives already.

Are you familiar with the Awesome Blossom? I used to laugh my way out of the hydro store when someone would stick a hundred dollar bottle of red dragon or bloombastic in my face, the Awesome Blossom is the king of cheap one part bloom boosters. It sure as fuck doesn't give results like a cheap bloom booster!


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 27, 2011)

I love the technoflora line ive been using it for about 3 runs now in hydro and have nothing bad to say just good stuff


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## Jozikins (Sep 28, 2011)

Most my technaflora experience was DWC, just experimenting with it, it was great. It also does amazing in soiless and soil blends.


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## collective gardener (Sep 28, 2011)

Technaflora is high onn the list of organic nute tests. It's ine of the few organics to have fairly complete nutrient analysis printed on the bottle. I like that. I think if anyone were to try and go 100% organic in a hydro/soiless settup, you'd be best off using several lines. I'm just not convinced any one line would do the trick. But, I could be wrong. I know if you start pumping K into your crop you'll need to find some source of magnesium. Anytime I add a high K bloom booster I start showing signs of mag defs. Now I add 3 ml/gal of Cutting Edge Mag Amp when I'm adding high K bloom boosters. Mag Amp contains a full 1% of magnesium. 

I sent Advanced Nutes an email with a pic of some plants with mag def. I told them I just started their line and these blemishes started. Which is the truth. The AN line uses very high K and I didn't up the mag soon enough. Anyways, the guy writes back needing more info...most of which I had already told him in my original email. Why he wants RH, temp, etc...is beyond me. I told them the only thing I changed was the nutes (from CE to AN). When I changed, the leaves started getting necrosis on the margins and necrotic upward pointing leaf tips...classic mag def. I sent them the additional info they wanted and haven't heard back! Any 2nd year grower could diagnose this problem. I'm quickly losing faith in their tech support department. If they don't eventually get this right, it will be quite sad,,,especially with all their advertising talk. I actually am quite happy with the results of the AN. I'd like to hear what they recommend I do about the mag problem. I already blasted them with Mag Amp and the problem is clearing up.


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Technaflora is high onn the list of organic nute tests. It's ine of the few organics to have fairly complete nutrient analysis printed on the bottle. I like that. I think if anyone were to try and go 100% organic in a hydro/soiless settup, you'd be best off using several lines. I'm just not convinced any one line would do the trick. But, I could be wrong. I know if you start pumping K into your crop you'll need to find some source of magnesium. Anytime I add a high K bloom booster I start showing signs of mag defs. Now I add 3 ml/gal of Cutting Edge Mag Amp when I'm adding high K bloom boosters. Mag Amp contains a full 1% of magnesium.
> 
> I sent Advanced Nutes an email with a pic of some plants with mag def. I told them I just started their line and these blemishes started. Which is the truth. The AN line uses very high K and I didn't up the mag soon enough. Anyways, the guy writes back needing more info...most of which I had already told him in my original email. Why he wants RH, temp, etc...is beyond me. I told them the only thing I changed was the nutes (from CE to AN). When I changed, the leaves started getting necrosis on the margins and necrotic upward pointing leaf tips...classic mag def. I sent them the additional info they wanted and haven't heard back! Any 2nd year grower could diagnose this problem. I'm quickly losing faith in their tech support department. If they don't eventually get this right, it will be quite sad,,,especially with all their advertising talk. I actually am quite happy with the results of the AN. I'd like to hear what they recommend I do about the mag problem. I already blasted them with Mag Amp and the problem is clearing up.


hey CG I had the same issue and I added there cal-mag A for veg and B for bloom and the problem went away!


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## Jozikins (Sep 29, 2011)

Harvested my freebie patient crop today 

Hopefully by Saturday it'll be dry enough to give her enough to hold over until next week when I have it cured a little bit. She is not a smoker, but I need to text her tomorrow and get herself scripted, I'm sure her doctor won't have a problem with it. He sounds pretty pro cannabis. My other friend will have to wait until I can get a little closer to him, he lives pretty far away from me, but I owe him a visit anyways. A fucking semi truck ran over his pelvis!


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## collective gardener (Sep 29, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> hey CG I had the same issue and I added there cal-mag A for veg and B for bloom and the problem went away!


I have a feeling that's what they will tell me. I already solved the problem, and it didn't affect the bud size. What I want to know is just how good is AN's tech support? So far, I'm less than impressed. The first email was sent out Sunday. First response was Tue, with just a bunch of questions...most of which were already answered IF they took the time to actually READ my first email. I responed to that within minutes of it arrival. No emails today. Glad I'm not some poor shmuck sitting in the bloom room, watching my plants die...my whole harvest in the hands of the AN tech support team. LOL . All my bitching, and obvious hatred towards AN asside, that fucking Conneseur is giving me the best crop yet in this op. Node spacing is nothing short of incredible, and the bud size is bigger than ever. It also looks as if my 60 day Bubba is going to be done next week...just 54 days. Some of the bud swell and calyx stacking can be attributed to Yellow Bottle "Final"...the best finisher HANDS DOWN. The difference between Final and Gravity is like apples and oranges. Gravity provides density and some stacking. But, most of it is lost in the first 24 hrs of drying. It just seems to give alot of water swell. Final, on the other hand, actually swells the calyxs about 20%+. Trimming is much easier, and the water loss is minimal. The shit is expensive if you use as directed. But, what commercial grower ever does that? I just add 2ml/gal week 6 and 1 ml/gal 3 days later. Then 3 more days light feeding, and start the flush. California is about to pull a bunch of Yellow Bottle additives off the shelf. This tells me it probably works. I'll be trying several other of their products next run. Performance reports shall be forthcoming.


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 29, 2011)

I gave up on the email talk with them and just got them on the phone, but even then there was some over baked idiot trying to 
read into all my grow room angles and aviod the nute talk all together. and thats why I made my own feeding chart! all there 
base lines will need the sensi cal A and B to aviod the def. but if you stay away from all the other shit and just use a base line
and big bud and b-52 with sensi-cal you will hit some of the highest yields!! not to shure about those finishers.


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## collective gardener (Sep 29, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> I gave up on the email talk with them and just got them on the phone, but even then there was some over baked idiot trying to
> read into all my grow room angles and aviod the nute talk all together. and thats why I made my own feeding chart! all there
> base lines will need the sensi cal A and B to aviod the def. but if you stay away from all the other shit and just use a base line
> and big bud and b-52 with sensi-cal you will hit some of the highest yields!! not to shure about those finishers.


 
LMAO. Yeah! What's the deal with them wanting to know the whole grow op details. I told the fucker that everything was great until I started with their nutes. Like this little ass clown is going to help me dial in my op. I have a fucking nutrient question. Just give me a nutrient answer. They probably want us to go out and buy a bunch of Bass Ass gear.

You may want to try Finalh on a couple plants. I was hesitant until Commercial J told me about it. They don't add a bunch of weight...maybe a tad. They do add alot of bag appeal...with no downside. If you have any bud rot issues, do not use them. The added density can make rot worse. As long as you don't have any rot problems, they're safe as anything. Basically, they give the buds that "chunky" look. I used to grow a pretty fluffy little OG. It had shitty bag appeal, but was the best muscle relaxer ever. I added Finish full strength and the fucker ended up looking like AK-47, with no effect on the high, smell, or flavor.


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 29, 2011)

its just called (finish)?

im googling it with no results


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## collective gardener (Sep 29, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> its just called (finish)?
> 
> im googling it with no results


Hydro International Yellow Bottle Finish


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## collective gardener (Sep 29, 2011)

OOPS. FINAL. : http://www.hydroint.com/1bloomfinal.php


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 29, 2011)

Dam my bad my local shop got that stuff!
Il pick a bottle up and try it.


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## C.Indica (Sep 29, 2011)

CG, I meant could you get me some schematics on your perpetual clones?
I remember reading that you keep cuttings in rockwool somewhere, and clone them every 5 weeks or so.
Or was it every week?

It's something I'm very, very interested in.
Or point me to where I could find the information.

Thanks
How's the tahoe by the way?


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## collective gardener (Sep 29, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> CG, I meant could you get me some schematics on your perpetual clones?
> I remember reading that you keep cuttings in rockwool somewhere, and clone them every 5 weeks or so.
> Or was it every week?
> 
> ...


I'm not quite sure what you mean by "schematic of clones"? I take cuts every 20 days. The grow cycles every 20 days: 20x3=60...60 day strains.


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## Wolverine97 (Sep 30, 2011)

CG I need your advice on something. Something I've always been dead set against ever doing, using Bushmaster... dundundun... I think I've pretty well painted myself into a corner on this one through a combination of stoner laziness, overwhelmed with work work, and having a family. Anyway, my canopy runneth over and I need to control it. I just flipped to 12/12 and my plants are already almost as tall as they usually finish. I'm in the (slow) process of upgrading and expanding, and I let things get away from me trying to plan for the project being done weeks ago which didn't happen. 

I know you've advocated its use before, what kind of dosage are you giving them? Foliar? Did you have any issues to account for like burn, lockout, whatever? I hear some people say it makes the buds "leaf out" a lot more and having less trichome production. Thoughts?


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## Beansly (Sep 30, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> CG I need your advice on something. Something I've always been dead set against ever doing, using Bushmaster... dundundun... I think I've pretty well painted myself into a corner on this one through a combination of stoner laziness, overwhelmed with work work, and having a family. Anyway, my canopy runneth over and I need to control it. I just flipped to 12/12 and my plants are already almost as tall as they usually finish. I'm in the (slow) process of upgrading and expanding, and I let things get away from me trying to plan for the project being done weeks ago which didn't happen.
> 
> I know you've advocated its use before, what kind of dosage are you giving them? Foliar? Did you have any issues to account for like burn, lockout, whatever? I hear some people say it makes the buds "leaf out" a lot more and having less trichome production. Thoughts?


 There's a thread in the general forum about how Humboldt products were found to have carcinogens in them or something. Let me see if I can find it.


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## Beansly (Sep 30, 2011)

Here you go
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/459639-warning-carcinogens-found-humboldt-countys.html


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 1, 2011)

Beansly said:


> Here you go
> https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/459639-warning-carcinogens-found-humboldt-countys.html


Thanks for the link Beansly. I've always been 100% against using this product, and most PGR's on general principle. This adds a new dimension. I knew Gravity was nasty stuff, and had always assumed Bushmaster was as well, I'll take some time to do some more research.


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## TheLastWood (Oct 1, 2011)

Bushmaster?!

Pinch and bend my friend, pinch and bend


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## C.Indica (Oct 1, 2011)

CG I was talking about your headstash gene pool.
I know you have some Sativa's and other goodies in a little rockwool tray somewhere, that you "refresh" by cloning every now and again.
Unless I'm just stoned and forgetting who it was.


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## Beansly (Oct 1, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Bushmaster?!
> 
> Pinch and bend my friend, pinch and bend


 HEy I've been wondering about this a little. I practice stem crushing but I'm not exactly sure why. I take the stem between my thumb and forefinger and squeeze intil it cracks. Then I turn the plant 90 degrees and do it again. All the way up the stem. I thought I was doing it as trying to make the stem stronger and allow more hormones to travel through it, butmy plants do stay pretty short too I've noticed. Is stem crushing a way to control hight too?


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## TheLastWood (Oct 1, 2011)

Well I was referring to supercropping, where you pinch and turn and pinch as you described, but then you bend the branch till its hanging, in a few hours the growth tip will point upwards. Slowly over the next week it will start growing upwards again.

The side affects are a shorter, bushier plant, all growth tips below the "pinch point" get an auxin boost and grow. Also a hard knuckle forms where the bend was made, aNd as you mentioned, it kinda becomes a "super highway". The knuckle also helps support bud weight, as it becomes hard and bark-like.

I would imagine if you pinched until you hear the pop you mentioned, and don't bend that it would still have the added benefit of "oversozing the xylem and phloem on the rebuild" and I imagine that it would also slow down vertical growth while it healed. I have never done just a pinch with no bend, but now that you mention it, it sparks my curiosity.

Definately gonna test that. What have you noticed from just pinching? Does it grow into a thick hard stalk?


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## Beansly (Oct 1, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Well I was referring to supercropping, where you pinch and turn and pinch as you described, but then you bend the branch till its hanging, in a few hours the growth tip will point upwards. Slowly over the next week it will start growing upwards again.
> 
> The side affects are a shorter, bushier plant, all growth tips below the "pinch point" get an auxin boost and grow. Also a hard knuckle forms where the bend was made, aNd as you mentioned, it kinda becomes a "super highway". The knuckle also helps support bud weight, as it becomes hard and bark-like.
> 
> ...


Yeah the parts I pinch heal into a harder, thicker stem and there's a little bruise visible afterward. I've been doing it subconsciously since I started growing so I never thought about it, but this cycle I'm growing super silver haze, and I noticed it didn't stretch as crazily as everyone said it would. Granted I did a 12/12 from seed, but it not ever 2 ft tall.
I'll try and take some pics tomorrow when the lights go on.


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 1, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Bushmaster?!
> 
> Pinch and bend my friend, pinch and bend


Yeah, if you read my original comment you'll see that I've always been die hard against using anything like that. This time is different, supercropping is what I do for a living, and it can only go so far. My plants are less than a foot from the lights already, and I just flipped. Pinch and bend aint gonna cut it, I may have to bite the bullet and severely top them which will reduce my yield overall at this stage. Anyway, just wanted to hear what dosage CG used...


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## TheLastWood (Oct 1, 2011)

Eek it woujld suck to top now!

I believe he uses 1 ml/gal


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## collective gardener (Oct 1, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Yeah, if you read my original comment you'll see that I've always been die hard against using anything like that. This time is different, supercropping is what I do for a living, and it can only go so far. My plants are less than a foot from the lights already, and I just flipped. Pinch and bend aint gonna cut it, I may have to bite the bullet and severely top them which will reduce my yield overall at this stage. Anyway, just wanted to hear what dosage CG used...


 
Sorry for delay. one half Ml per gallon MAX. Feed with plain water day before, day of, and day after treatment. Raise and dim lights treatment day and the next few days. My plants respond to just 1/3 ml per gallon. Best time to use is about 3 days before stretch starts in bloom. Plant will continue to age, but vertical growth stops. If you figure out the timing, you can get a plant that only stretches about 10% in bloom.

I ONLY use the BushFucker in emergencies, when I fuck the timing. I prefer some stretch for light penetration. Without the stretch, you'll need to seriously prune to get light down into the lower branches. 

You can also use it in veg to guve you a week plus of no vertical growth. I do this when I KNOW I'm too early. It's like puting on the brakes for a week to 10 days. I have not noticed any quality difference when using the Bushmaster. It is a powerful tool that stunts the plants. If you use 5 Ml per gallon it would probably kill the plants. It's best to test one or 2 plants to get the right dosage prior to needing it on a whole crop. I would start with 1/4 Ml per gallon. You'll know when it works...it's very obvious.


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 2, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Sorry for delay. one half Ml per gallon MAX. Feed with plain water day before, day of, and day after treatment. Raise and dim lights treatment day and the next few days. My plants respond to just 1/3 ml per gallon. Best time to use is about 3 days before stretch starts in bloom. Plant will continue to age, but vertical growth stops. If you figure out the timing, you can get a plant that only stretches about 10% in bloom.
> 
> I ONLY use the BushFucker in emergencies, when I fuck the timing. I prefer some stretch for light penetration. Without the stretch, you'll need to seriously prune to get light down into the lower branches.
> 
> You can also use it in veg to guve you a week plus of no vertical growth. I do this when I KNOW I'm too early. It's like puting on the brakes for a week to 10 days. I have not noticed any quality difference when using the Bushmaster. It is a powerful tool that stunts the plants. If you use 5 Ml per gallon it would probably kill the plants. It's best to test one or 2 plants to get the right dosage prior to needing it on a whole crop. I would start with 1/4 Ml per gallon. You'll know when it works...it's very obvious.


Thanks man. I'll go on the low end for sure, mostly because I can't raise my lights. Can't dim them because I run mag ballasts. I'll probably go buy some shade cloth and install that above the canopy for a couple days. No noticeable yield reduction?


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## collective gardener (Oct 2, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Thanks man. I'll go on the low end for sure, mostly because I can't raise my lights. Can't dim them because I run mag ballasts. I'll probably go buy some shade cloth and install that above the canopy for a couple days. No noticeable yield reduction?


 
No yield reduction. In fact, potential for increased yield. If you use it in the stretch phase, the plants stay more compact. So much so, that you can fit more plants in a given area. However many plants you add will be your yield increase. The difference in finish size between a treated and un treated plant is, as always, strain dependant. It just depends on how much bigger the plant would normally get during the 7-10 days the treatment is regulating growth. With the Bubba the difference is between 35 plants and 50 plants. Treated, I get 50 plants a tray...untreated I get 35 plants per tray. The treated plants yield slightly less than un treated plants due to better light penetration in a stretched plant...but the additional plants MORE than make up for this tiny yield reduction.


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## Beansly (Oct 2, 2011)

I read an article in high times where a guy used bushmaster and swore by it. He said it increased his yeild noticeably.


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## Joedank (Oct 2, 2011)

^^^ I always gotta chime in when I hear notable yeild enhancement from a bottle with hormones not designed to affect yeild TOoo many factors contribute. To yeild... I have been playing cricket and bird sounds at 100 decibles an it opens the stoma and make foliar feeding really work proven with my microscope... Playing classical music increases yeild not magic potions that will stack shit so tight mold can be an issue on sativa crosses I know I have abused it ... Too much can and will perm fuck up plants.. Just my grain of salt fromthe last ten years


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## Beansly (Oct 3, 2011)

Joedank said:


> ^^^ I always gotta chime in when I hear notable yeild enhancement from a bottle with hormones not designed to affect yeild TOoo many factors contribute. To yeild... I have been playing cricket and bird sounds at 100 decibles an it opens the stoma and make foliar feeding really work proven with my microscope... Playing classical music increases yeild not magic potions that will stack shit so tight mold can be an issue on sativa crosses I know I have abused it ... Too much can and will perm fuck up plants.. Just my grain of salt from the last ten years


You're probably right, and I would totally use mozart and birdies before I used, but I don't think the bottle claims to increase yeild. It was from a grower with a very impressive grow room so I wouldn't doubt the he/she had some time growing too. The man said it increased his yeild. It probably has something to do with the strain as he said some strains react to it a lot better than others. I don't believe in magic potions either, just thought it was worth mentioning.


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## collective gardener (Oct 3, 2011)

Joedank said:


> ^^^ I always gotta chime in when I hear notable yeild enhancement from a bottle with hormones not designed to affect yeild TOoo many factors contribute. To yeild... I have been playing cricket and bird sounds at 100 decibles an it opens the stoma and make foliar feeding really work proven with my microscope... Playing classical music increases yeild not magic potions that will stack shit so tight mold can be an issue on sativa crosses I know I have abused it ... Too much can and will perm fuck up plants.. Just my grain of salt fromthe last ten years


As I said, my experience with Bushmaster is that it DOES NOT increase yield. BUT, it may give you a more compact plant with THE SAME yield...allowing you more plants in a given area, and therefore more TOTAL yield in said area.

That being said. I do not use the stuff to increase yield. I use it once or twice per year when my bad timing results in the incoming crop being too tall. For me, it's just another tool. Suppercropping, topping in bloom, and/or LST is NOT an option for me. Any of those methods will dratically affect my carefully planned canopy shape and therefore fuck my yield all to hell. The Bushmaster allows me to control my plants height, while maintaining plant and canopy SHAPE. It just gives you the ability to look at your plants and say, "stay that height for 10 days"...and they obey.


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## Beansly (Oct 3, 2011)

OK well I'll find the article, and I'll type it up.


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## Joedank (Oct 3, 2011)

More plants same space is a definite increase in plants per sq ft and usally ups my yeild . I had ten sour crosses in my greenhouse like six feet tall last run . But the 20 apollo 13 in there now looks like way more product although they are only 3 ft... 
I was not trying to pick a fight I really believe the hormones and other things work in bushmasters product as stated but yeild increase from a shorter plant is an amazing claim unless like you CG more plAnts are involved .. My best yeild was from plants flipped just after transplanting and heavy pruning. They shot up three feet in the stretch but filled all stacked colas;$


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## Beansly (Oct 3, 2011)

Joedank said:


> More plants same space is a definite increase in plants per sq ft and usally ups my yeild . I had ten sour crosses in my greenhouse like six feet tall last run . But the 20 apollo 13 in there now looks like way more product although they are only 3 ft...
> I was not trying to pick a fight I really believe the hormones and other things work in bushmasters product as stated but yeild increase from a shorter plant is an amazing claim unless like you CG more plants are involved .. My best yeild was from plants flipped just after transplanting and heavy pruning. They shot up three feet in the stretch but filled all stacked colas;$


 No fight. All's good.
I like a challenge that's all


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## mastiffkush (Oct 3, 2011)

CG and all other experienced DWC guys, can you please give some input on my thread..im having an issue with 2 of my plants in a multi DWC bubbleponic site, i need them to survive until harvest, please check out my sig all input is greatly appreciated!!


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 3, 2011)

mastiffkush said:


> CG and all other experienced DWC guys, can you please give some input on my thread..im having an issue with 2 of my plants in a multi DWC bubbleponic site, i need them to survive until harvest, please check out my sig all input is greatly appreciated!!


I hit your thread bro hope it helps


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## mastiffkush (Oct 3, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> I hit your thread bro hope it helps


Thanks for the input +Rep!


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## InsaneMJ (Oct 4, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Hate to change subject, BUT...I 'd like to hear what people are doing for spider mites. I have the spotted mite (thank god...the pure red mite is almost impossible to get rid of). They're in my bloom room, on plants about 4 weeks along. I am treating with Spinosad right now. I was using this for thrips, and it says good for mites, too. It worls wonders for thrips...I don't know about mites. I want to use 2 or 3 different products for a multi pronged attack. We'll bomb the veg room with Dr Doom, of course. All spider mite killing product info is welcome.


Im still reading through the whole thing, so allow me a few days to catch up 
but one of the best products for killing spider mites in my opinion is the Plant Vitality Plus, I live in So-Cal but bought it from a hydroshop in United Kingdom. I used the product 1 time and it killed the spidermites within the day. It's been 4 days since I did the application and I have not seen any signs of spider mites in my garden at all! Just to be thorough I went ahead and did a minor spray down on the plants today just incase of any larva or eggs that i might of missed. 

On a side note I've been reading quite a bit and I notice you don't talk too much about your ppm's in flower. I did read at one point it said around 900 then you slowly drop it for harvesting time. So I'm alittle curious on what type of nutrients you like to stick with and your ppm's. Also I'm curious if you use any foliar spray during veg. I started to use the liquid light and saturator. Seems to be doing quite beautiful for me.


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## 323cheezy (Oct 4, 2011)

Hey gardener of the collective...
I wasnt able to read all 172 pages ...but i think its cool of you to share your adventures with us fellow riuer's...
Did u say u get cuts from clonervile ??? I would recoomend po in sfv... thats where i get most of mine....

The 99 plant rule is key ...even tho your a colectve .. shit happens... and underr 99 is better for reasons...

I have some descent genetics..... and a whole slu of medical patients...cliente'....that i can only maintain for so long... dont grow as much as you.... but their practically breaking down my door as we speak to get top shelves for 10 a gram...(only i an do this)...

So let me know were your club is.... i stay on the northeast side of la ...central to all the greatest dispenciaries...
I have many clubs i frequent and know many growers... if u ever need a certain elite strain ... im sure we could find it and verify it out....

let me know ....just a patient/grower...


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## InsaneMJ (Oct 6, 2011)

Hey CG if you have free time could you swing by my thread and check it out, throw in some opinions. I love hearing new input from people or any tips that you might have to help me out. Thanks.


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## collective gardener (Oct 6, 2011)

Joedank said:


> More plants same space is a definite increase in plants per sq ft and usally ups my yeild . I had ten sour crosses in my greenhouse like six feet tall last run . But the 20 apollo 13 in there now looks like way more product although they are only 3 ft...
> I was not trying to pick a fight I really believe the hormones and other things work in bushmasters product as stated but yeild increase from a shorter plant is an amazing claim unless like you CG more plAnts are involved .. My best yeild was from plants flipped just after transplanting and heavy pruning. They shot up three feet in the stretch but filled all stacked colas;$




I think I have told this story here before. One of my best indoor yields was a 4x8 tray packed with 275 plants in 4x4x4 rockwool blocks. You read it right...275 plants, or 9 plants per sq ft. The table was a flood & drain. and was lit by a single 1000 watt HPS, Agrosun bulb, on a light mover that tracked the reflector back and forth. The plants were flipped to 12/'12 as soon as the majority of them showed sure signs of new growth for a couple days. The strain was Northern Lights #5. The plants made a nice sea of 7 gram donkey dicks. The yield ended up to be right around 2.5 ozs/sq ft...a record at the time. 1.92 grams per watt. 4 lbs from one 4x8 tray. All of these were, and still are, records for me. I believe it shows that higher plant density gives higher yield right up to insane plant numbers. 

I would love to do this type of density today. Unfortunately, it would mean 1700+ plants in bloom, and times where I would have 3400+. That's way too many plants regardless of patient numbers. My attorney caps us on 10 plants per patient and a set total max amount of plants at any time, which I won't go into. If I could run that density now, it would mean over 30lbs every 2 months. Needless to say, I'm not getting that now. If I was growing closet or other small area, I would use the 9 plant per sq ft density.


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## collective gardener (Oct 6, 2011)

mastiffkush said:


> CG and all other experienced DWC guys, can you please give some input on my thread..im having an issue with 2 of my plants in a multi DWC bubbleponic site, i need them to survive until harvest, please check out my sig all input is greatly appreciated!!


 
Posted on your thread


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## collective gardener (Oct 6, 2011)

323cheezy said:


> Hey gardener of the collective...
> I wasnt able to read all 172 pages ...but i think its cool of you to share your adventures with us fellow riuer's...
> Did u say u get cuts from clonervile ??? I would recoomend po in sfv... thats where i get most of mine....
> 
> ...


 
I do not have a "club". We are a grow only collective association, with a private membership structure. 

I always have my eye out for new genetics. Cloneville sucks ass. Their clones die upon arrival, and the ones that live only do so to support the spider mites. The single surviving plant, advertised as a New York Diesel, turned out to be some of the worst weed I have ever grown. Huge sativa yield of total crap. I cannot say this enough. Stay away from cloneville. 

I don't know what PO stands for. Is that the place over by Pacoima? I have been keeping my eye out for a killer Blue Dream or Casey (or is it KC) Jones pheno. There's a Blue Dream up north boasting 20%+ THC. If you have access to either of these with samples of finished product, I would like very much to talk. I should be clear that I do not just buy some cut that someone tells me is this or that. All of my current strains come from friends and are not available on the open market. These are the phenos I look for.


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 6, 2011)

Casey Jones.


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## 323cheezy (Oct 6, 2011)

Po stands for progressive options in sfv...
it not to far from la.... they are the best place for me to get clones....
howevr theyre are just a group of growers ..like yoursleves ... but they only make mothers and cuts no meds...
clone dispensary only....

I have a clone called blue larry that is a cross between larry og and blue dream thats really tasty ....
Im was more kinda interested where ure located ...i could always donate some....


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## collective gardener (Oct 6, 2011)

323cheezy said:


> Po stands for progressive options in sfv...
> it not to far from la.... they are the best place for me to get clones....
> howevr theyre are just a group of growers ..like yoursleves ... but they only make mothers and cuts no meds...
> clone dispensary only....
> ...


Where I'm located? I think not. Given what just went down on the news today, I'm going into "lockdown" mode. As far as I'm concerned, everyone is the DEA, just waiting to drive the Big Fed Weenie up my back hole. The Feds are all worked up on pot again. Be careful out there. No vending to dispensaries for a while.


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 6, 2011)

yah I saw on msn wtf is going on CG?


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## mellokitty (Oct 6, 2011)

you're the first person i thought of when i heard that. be safe out there.


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## cannawizard (Oct 6, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Where I'm located? I think not. Given what just went down on the news today, I'm going into "lockdown" mode. As far as I'm concerned, everyone is the DEA, just waiting to drive the Big Fed Weenie up my back hole. The Feds are all worked up on pot again. Be careful out there. No vending to dispensaries for a while.


**yea just saw that also.. actually got some concerned calls about it too.... its all gravvy... just dont vend to illegal co-ops/dispensaries


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## collective gardener (Oct 6, 2011)

We will know more tomorrow. The Feds are having a press conference tomorrow spelling out exactly what their latest plans are for cracking down on Medical Marijuana. This comes on the eve of probable full legalization in California's next election. The IRS's new agenda is to dissallow standard business deductions for dispensaries (payroll, rent, electricity, etc...). Steve DeAngelo, owner of Harborside, is being told he owes MILLIONS of dollars is taxes because of this bullshit. They took his tax payments without question. NOW, they're claiming that you can't write off business costs to distribute a controlled substance. So, basically, they want him to pay taxes on his total gross sales. No business could ever survive that kind of taxation.

As far as vending goes, it's not safe right now. A couple years ago the feds were on a similar rampage. They staked out dispensaries and busted all of the vendors showing up with their little backpacks full of meds. It's best to show up without your LB and check out the place first. Then, go get your product and make the sale. 

We'll be watching this latest insanity really close. Keep on posting any updates on the sittuation that are beyond the typical Associated Press Releases.

Bottom line? FUCK.


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 7, 2011)

This fing sucks balls, best of luck to all of you, im shure they wont just stop in cali its a matter of time before
They move on other states to  just another lie by our fearless leader


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## collective gardener (Oct 7, 2011)

Everyone just stick together, don't take any undo risks, and NO RATTING!!!!


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 7, 2011)

10/4"...................................................


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## cannawizard (Oct 7, 2011)

..ninja mode is nothing new 


..poof


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 7, 2011)

Michigan has been having a lot of issues too. Our attorney general is on a fucking mission to shit all over a voter passed initiative, trampling our rights because he doesn't like mmj. People are pissed, we had a rally at the capitol building last month but I'm not sure how much good it did. Almost all dispensaries have closed their doors, it's getting ugly. People need to stand up and be loud about this. We voted this into law, now they're trying to (very cleverly) limit our rights by carefully crafted legislation. Stand up for your rights people. 

Of the people, by the people, and for the people. Yeah right...


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## TheLastWood (Oct 7, 2011)

That's the number 1 thing that pisses me off, how dare they take away something the people voted for. Who the fuck are they? Whose workin for who here?

By the same standards that constructed this country that DEMANDS resistance.

There all so fucking stupid, "hmm we have two unsolvable problems here, where to come up with all this owed money, and what to do about medical marijuana, if only there's was a simple answer that solved both problems at the same time." 

But the ppl are wrong of course. Were too stupid to know what's good for us.


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## Beansly (Oct 7, 2011)

Hey CG, hows the grow?
Like I said before I'm really thinking of switching to hydro, and your story about the 9 plants per sq ft SOG is making the decision easier. Could you possibly elaborate on that grow for me if it's not too much trouble? 
Was it easier or harder would you say, than dealing with less, LARGER plants? 
Did you use any special nutrients or was the_ 3 part base plus a few select supplements_ kinda thing? 
What strain did you grow, and how would you say strain choice impacts the SOG? 
Could you grow any strain and just trim off all the side growth, or is it important to start with a plant that doesn't branch? 
How tall did you plants get?
Is it something you'd recommend to anyone or would you say it for more experienced growers?
How hard was it to get 7g a plant? Was it all popcorn buds or were they dense little colas?
7g dry is about an ounce wet right?

Sorry about all question man. If there was anything I could offer you I'd give it to you in a heartbeat lol.
I'm planning to buy the equipment to completely change my set up and I want to make sure I make the right choices.


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## TheLastWood (Oct 7, 2011)

He said the strain was nl5 and each plant was a 7g donkey dick. I know he only veg'd for a few days after new growth started up, and he said how tall they finished in a post farther back but I can't remember exactly. I think it was like 16-18".

Ill see if I can find the other one.


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## Beansly (Oct 7, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> He said the strain was nl5 and each plant was a 7g donkey dick. I know he only veg'd for a few days after new growth started up, and he said how tall they finished in a post farther back but I can't remember exactly. I think it was like 16-18".
> 
> Ill see if I can find the other one.


Thanks tlw. 7 grams seems small for a 18 inch plant... I'd love to give this a try. I was already planing on doing an ebb and flow SOG, but I wasn't aware of the possibilities.


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## rzza (Oct 7, 2011)

. . .


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## Joedank (Oct 7, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Everyone just stick together, don't take any undo risks, and NO RATTING!!!!


 copy that good buddy keep your friends close and your lawyers on retainer...


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## C.Indica (Oct 7, 2011)

Joedank said:


> copy that good buddy keep your friends close and your lawyers on retainer...


Beautiful avatar.

Sorry to hear about the funk down there, but I know you've been in this mode many many times before.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Oct 7, 2011)

I agree with kitty. Stay safe out there man. It would be a shame if they too shut down something as beautiful as your garden. When you get a chance check out my stuff. I have a kushberry x blue dream that is created solely by my buddy and I. ( we were lucky enough to get some killer seeds from a guy in San Jose. I'm in az now) anyways with those seeds we got one super male. Been perfecting it these last couple crops but i must say it's some of the tastiest medicine me or any of my patients out here have EVER tried. Hope everything stays good in Cali. Much love and happy growing


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## collective gardener (Oct 9, 2011)

Beansly said:


> Hey CG, hows the grow?
> Like I said before I'm really thinking of switching to hydro, and your story about the 9 plants per sq ft SOG is making the decision easier. Could you possibly elaborate on that grow for me if it's not too much trouble?
> Was it easier or harder would you say, than dealing with less, LARGER plants? ...................Pain in the ass taking all the clones
> Did you use any special nutrients or was the_ 3 part base plus a few select supplements_ kinda thing?.................At that time I was using GH 3 part only...don't get too hung up on nutes
> ...


See answers above. This is extremely risky from a legal standpoint. If you were ever interested in trying LED's or induction lighting, this would be the ideal settup.


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## collective gardener (Oct 9, 2011)

Back in the day we didn't really worry about plant counts. Most of my crowd had over 100 plants. so all the way up to 1000 plants it was the same 5 yr minimum for a bust. I used to grow around 900 plants, figuring that I may as well risk 5 years growing some real weight, rather than getting 5 for just having 101 plants...50 of em clones.

Today, we have they new rules. I actually like the new challange. I was getting kind of bored with the same old SOG growing style. Don't get me wrong...NOTHING is as efficient as 4+ 18" plants per sq ft. I would usually remove all branching and grow a sea of "donkey dicks". The only bummer was we didn't have 600 watt lights and huge reflectors back then, which is the perfect settup for that canopy. 400's were too small, and 1000's were kind of overkill, and produced hot spots with the old style reflectors. At one point I was running 4 Sun Circle light movers with 2 HPS's and 1 MH on each Circle. Each mover would light a 10' diameter round tray. We were getting 10 pounds per tray...all NL#5, which was going for 4K fucking wholesale!!! Needless to say, life was good.

I like the new style we've been "forced" to adopt to keep the plant count down. Mellow Kitty's BAYVERB settup with T-5 overhead lighting is really cool. I have a feeling they're going to get that thing dialed in and kick some real weight with just 35 plants. We're good to 250 plants, but I'm trying to see what we can do with just 3 8x8 trays with 36 plants per tray. 36" multiple branch plants well pruned seem to work pretty good. It's no where near the old school SOG yields, but getting better with each crop. The latest crop will be fitted with tomato cages on each plant. The idea being to secure the branches with just enough room between them that the leaves don't touch, and to position the branches as vertical as possible. With this settup, I'm hoping to increase the number of plants on each tray to 50, without much reduction in yield from each plant. We're also removing more of the secondary branches. The 4-6 main branches are the real money makers. This should also help out with trimming ease.

The point is, I actually like having to adapt to new rules. It keeps it interesting. I also enjoy seeing what other people are doing to get more from less plants. I've seen some cool SCROG settups training just 5 or 6 huge plants into an 8x8 canopy that looks like an old school SOG canopy. The downside is that the plants must stay in the same location through a long ass veg and the bloom. Several individual rooms would be the ticket there. Let's post up some links of folks kicking some big yields with just a few plants. Mellow Kitty, I expect to see your shit on here ASAP.


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## mellokitty (Oct 9, 2011)

oh cg, you flatterer you. 
baverb tree grows have been fairly common here since before mmj; the most wattage i've ever seen in one place (would've eaten both our rooms for brekkie and then asked for seconds) was dialled in to service less than 200 plants. baverbs are pretty well de rigeur around here.... as of right now i know less people who use hoods/air-cooled/wings/etc than baverbers.

this is our first room supplementing the baverbs with t5's.... i really want to start experimenting with different spectrums of t5 tubes.







some video of the room itself:

[video=youtube;5W9csxh0y2w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W9csxh0y2w&feature=mh_lolz&list=HL1318171827[/video]


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## mastiffkush (Oct 9, 2011)

Kitty, that looks awesome!! Question though, did you use a proxy service when you created your youtube and posted those videos?


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 9, 2011)

mastiffkush said:


> Kitty, that looks awesome!! Question though, did you use a proxy service when you created your youtube and posted those videos?


I would hope we all are. Kitty, I really wouldn't answer that if I were you. Gives away too much info either way. 
-concerned friend.


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## Joedank (Oct 9, 2011)

Cana-duh has no reason to inflame it residents by fucking with med grows... Too many people really blowing it up up there... Think bout it cheap electric cold weather... I saw a football field size indoor divided in ten rooms. No baverb or mention of legality up there what blew my mind in the winter it's so dry they used swamp coolers in veg rooms and air cyclers from furnaces to cool flower rooms very little ac use cept in summer


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## tommyo3000 (Oct 9, 2011)

CG-

Are you accurately measuring VPD?

Your humidity could be "all good" as far as growing books will tell you... But measuring RH is really not the best way to check the moisture situation in your grow.

The VPD is the thing to measure because it dictates when leaves are covered in a ...what did they call it...... moisture film or something along those lines... When there is this moisture film on the leaves, the mold is invited. This can happen when your AIR RH is 55 or lower...

Gotta run... just wanted to mention that before I forgot.

TO


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## collective gardener (Oct 9, 2011)

tommyo3000 said:


> CG-
> 
> Are you accurately measuring VPD?
> 
> ...


 
VPD? Sounds like something you get from a hooker. I've always used RH with no problems. I keep the veg around 50-60% and the bloom right around 55%. Haven't had a speck of PM in 6 months. Thank god for Spectracide. One good spray 1 week into bloom is all it takes. I'm kind of confused as to why you're worried about my RH.


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## TheLastWood (Oct 9, 2011)

Its somethin about air pressure. And the right temperature to humidity for keeping the stomata open.


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## tommyo3000 (Oct 10, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> VPD? Sounds like something you get from a hooker. I've always used RH with no problems. I keep the veg around 50-16% and the bloom right around 55%. Haven't had a speck of PM in 6 months. Thank god for Spectracide. One good spray 1 week into bloom is all it takes. I'm kind of confused as to why you're worried about my RH.


Ahh, you mentioned the powdery mildew being a problem in your area even when RH is below 55%... 
PM can thrive in RH as low as 30%. Botrytis needs more humidity to be able to sporulate on your leaves, but Powdery Mildew contains enough moisture in its spores to germinate and then is able to use moisture from the leaves to grow on plants..

Anyway, I should be more concerned with my own VPD than any one else's...


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## davidgrimm (Oct 10, 2011)

Collective Gardner

Hi there

Hope every thing is going good with you and yours. I had a quick question about the nutes you are using if you can spare the time please. 

You were using Cutting Edge and then switched, a couple of months ago, to another for a test. Did you decide to make the switch permanent (and if so, what did you switch to?) or did you go back to CE? I use CE also and was wondering if you found another was better.

Thanks for replying. 

Live long and thrive please to you and all those you hold dear.

David Grimm


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## collective gardener (Oct 10, 2011)

davidgrimm said:


> Collective Gardner
> 
> Hi there
> 
> ...


 
I've been avoiding this topic like the plague. A couple months ago I decided to try Advanced Nutrients. My local Hydro store gave me a buttload of the stuff to try out. Now, let me be clear, I am not a fan of that company. I think alot of what they say is BS, my good friend MellowKitty has friends who have been totally fucked over by them, and with the amount of money they spend on marketing it's hard to believe there's any left over for quality nutrients. That being said, the stuff gave me the best crop BY FAR that I've got from this grow op. 

The plants were vegged using Cutting Edge. In bloom I started out with CONNOISSEUR as a base nute. I only had a 2 liter kit, so I switched to Sensi Bloom as a base about 3 weeks into bloom. The Connoisseur just seemed too expensive. For additives, I used Big Bud, Mothers Earth Bloom Tea, and Overdrive...all from AN. I also used Cutting Edge Mag Amp, Hydro International Roots and Final. The Big Bud is basically a bunch of potasium. When I run out I'll change to Kushi Kush because it is double the strength for a couple bucks more. The Overdrive is used at the end of the bloom. I used the Mag Amp because AN is heavy on K, and whenever you're running that much K, you run the risk of mag problems. Mag Amp is magnesium sulfate, with 1% magnesium. AN's magnesium sulfate products (Bud FactorX, Bud Candy) contain only .5% mag, and cost 3 times more than Mag Amp. Hydro International Yellow Bottle additives are very effective. I know there's a bunch of hoemones and shit many people don't like, but it works. The Roots is great for root developement. The Final is very strong. It is used a week or 2 before the flush, and just blows up the buds big time. I threw in the Mother's Earth Tea because the vast variety of organic ingredients. I thought it would be nice to toss my plants some organic food for a change. 

The first thing I noticed as the plants got into bloom was the tighter node spacing. I mean ALOT tighter. I don't want to say twice as tight...but damn close. Then, as the bloom continued, the bud size was pretty bad ass. I'd say 25% bigger than with CE. The quality was great...about the same as CE...but we're growing a fantastic strain that you'd have to really fuck up to get bad quality. I'm still trimming and drying this batch, so I don't have the final yield numbers in yet. It looks like it will be at least a 30% increase over CE, though. I did get some necrosis on the leaf tips and margins, but it didn't effect the final product. I think I have that worked out on this next run.

The second run is just a week into bloom. No connoiser this time. It's Sensi Bloom from the start. I hope it wasn't the Connoiser that gave me the tight node spacing. If it was, my yield will suffer this run. I will say this...if it was the Connoiser that tightened up the node spacing, I'd have no problem paying the money to get that performance everytime. I also added the B-52 on this run. A friend said it made a big difference on his quality. The real challange with AN will be figuring out which additives really make a difference, and which are just snake oil. I believe that there's probably 2-3 additives that make 90% of the difference. I'll just keep adding them and removing them until I figure out which ones are the real money makers. There's no fucking way I'm going to use the 12 or so additives that AN would recommend to a be a Grand Masturbator Grower. 

To sum it up, I'm done with CE. My buddy Commercial J (40,000 watt grow op) saw my crop and he's changing too. I believe that just Sensi Bloom would do better that Cutting Edge 3 part with the 3 additives. I loved CE, but the AN just gives far better results.


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## davidgrimm (Oct 10, 2011)

THANKS so much for the prompt and VERY detailed reply. Your experience with CE and changes to different nutes will save me much time experimenting. I currently use CE but the only additive that I use is Bloombastic (which is like $700 for their largest bottle). I get decent but not great results so no point in me teaching my veg or bloom methods but my cloning is outstanding, simple enough for a simpleton like me and so easy to do it shouldn't even be classified as work.

Basically I clone with an EZ Cloner 60 site machine. I made 1 modification to the machine, I took out its air system and just put in a 2 stone air pump (Before I did this results were shitty) . I made this modification about 18 months ago. I overload it (90 cuttings), use municipal tap water and KLN as directed by its label. Plug the machine in (under a little POS flourescent light), wait 6-7 days and Presto at least 87-90 GREAT clones with lots of nice, white, large roots. Very "Set it and Forget it!" Roncoish. If you ever decide to look for a cloning alternative, I can recommend this method without reservation. I am gonna clone again in a couple of days so will take pictures then and again a week later. Then I'll post them here if thats OK. Let me know if thats not OK. I really don't know the accepted etiquette.

Once again, thanks for your quick and detailed reply. Hope everything goes great for you and yours.

David Grimm (nom de plume, BTW)


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 10, 2011)

Looks like you descovered what I did, base line and a few sups, for me I've been down this road your going to take cg,
If it wasn't for the cost it would be a bit fun. So to break it down b52/big bud/overdive are the only ones I ended up liking!
Bud I'm understanding kushy Kush is the same thing as big bud but stronger? I'm going to do a run with my orange kush

Il run just connosuor, kushie kush,b52,overdrive and yellow bottle final and see what happens
It will be 20 under x6 600 hps lummateck ultra PAR bulbs in a 10x14


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## collective gardener (Oct 11, 2011)

davidgrimm said:


> THANKS so much for the prompt and VERY detailed reply. Your experience with CE and changes to different nutes will save me much time experimenting. I currently use CE but the only additive that I use is Bloombastic (which is like $700 for their largest bottle). I get decent but not great results so no point in me teaching my veg or bloom methods but my cloning is outstanding, simple enough for a simpleton like me and so easy to do it shouldn't even be classified as work.
> 
> Basically I clone with an EZ Cloner 60 site machine. I made 1 modification to the machine, I took out its air system and just put in a 2 stone air pump (Before I did this results were shitty) . I made this modification about 18 months ago. I overload it (90 cuttings), use municipal tap water and KLN as directed by its label. Plug the machine in (under a little POS flourescent light), wait 6-7 days and Presto at least 87-90 GREAT clones with lots of nice, white, large roots. Very "Set it and Forget it!" Roncoish. If you ever decide to look for a cloning alternative, I can recommend this method without reservation. I am gonna clone again in a couple of days so will take pictures then and again a week later. Then I'll post them here if thats OK. Let me know if thats not OK. I really don't know the accepted etiquette.
> 
> ...


Post whatever pics u like.


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## rzza (Oct 11, 2011)

Dont even sweat it guys, once I got vpd from a local street walker, just some cream oughtta clear things up for ya


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## Jozikins (Oct 12, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I've been avoiding this topic like the plague. A couple months ago I decided to try Advanced Nutrients. My local Hydro store gave me a buttload of the stuff to try out. Now, let me be clear, I am not a fan of that company. I think alot of what they say is BS, my good friend MellowKitty has friends who have been totally fucked over by them, and with the amount of money they spend on marketing it's hard to believe there's any left over for quality nutrients. That being said, the stuff gave me the best crop BY FAR that I've got from this grow op.
> 
> The plants were vegged using Cutting Edge. In bloom I started out with CONNOISSEUR as a base nute. I only had a 2 liter kit, so I switched to Sensi Bloom as a base about 3 weeks into bloom. The Connoisseur just seemed too expensive. For additives, I used Big Bud, Mothers Earth Bloom Tea, and Overdrive...all from AN. I also used Cutting Edge Mag Amp, Hydro International Roots and Final. The Big Bud is basically a bunch of potasium. When I run out I'll change to Kushi Kush because it is double the strength for a couple bucks more. The Overdrive is used at the end of the bloom. I used the Mag Amp because AN is heavy on K, and whenever you're running that much K, you run the risk of mag problems. Mag Amp is magnesium sulfate, with 1% magnesium. AN's magnesium sulfate products (Bud FactorX, Bud Candy) contain only .5% mag, and cost 3 times more than Mag Amp. Hydro International Yellow Bottle additives are very effective. I know there's a bunch of hoemones and shit many people don't like, but it works. The Roots is great for root developement. The Final is very strong. It is used a week or 2 before the flush, and just blows up the buds big time. I threw in the Mother's Earth Tea because the vast variety of organic ingredients. I thought it would be nice to toss my plants some organic food for a change.
> 
> ...


As another AN hater originally, I can say this, you will LOVE Liquid Carboload. Best carbohydrate product I have ever used.


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## collective gardener (Oct 12, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> As another AN hater originally, I can say this, you will LOVE Liquid Carboload. Best carbohydrate product I have ever used.


I've always felt that if you're not growing live soil organic, there's no need for carbs to feed a microherd that isn't there. This is the same reason I wouldn't use AN's Pirahna, Tarantula, and any other bio's in the line. I have tried to mix chem nutes with myco's, fungi, and bacterias (along with carbs to feed them all) with zero improvements. But, when growing live soil organic, these additives are the life blood of the medium. I think that these additives should be classified in AN's Organic line. I also question AN's repetition of magnesium sulfate in Bud Candy and Bud Factor X (and I think one more). Maybe there's more to these than the mag sulfate listed, but they really should say so. Instead of paying $92 for a liter of Bud Factor X (with just ,5% mag), I went with my old standby Cutting Edge Mag Amp with 1% mag at $25/liter. 

I am very pleased with the results from the AN nutes I used. I still am very conservative over what $$$ I will spend on additives. I can't help but feeling that there's a big hard dick aimed right at my ass, just waiting for me to slip up and take the monetary ass rape of a lifetime. For the time being, I'm sticking with Sensi Bloom (maybe back to Connoiser), Big Bud, B-52, and Overdrive. These are what gave me the killer results on the harvest being trimmed right now. The only unknown is how much the Connoiser helped. I used it for the first 3 weeks of bloom till I ran out...then switched to Sensi Bloom. If it was the Connoiseur that gave me the node spacing, I'd have no problem paying up for that in the future. The increase in yield just from the tighter nodes added up to several thousand dollars.


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## TheLastWood (Oct 12, 2011)

Hmm on an 8 week strain, with conoisseur for the first 3 weeks, I would guess it was what gave you the tight nodes.

Maybe the sensi will do it too.


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## collective gardener (Oct 13, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Hmm on an 8 week strain, with conoisseur for the first 3 weeks, I would guess it was what gave you the tight nodes.
> 
> Maybe the sensi will do it too.


Yup. That was my thought, as well. I mean, I know the Connoiseur did it. The question is, is there some secret sauce in the Connoiseur that's not in the Sensi. I have 36 plants put into bloom on the 3rd. We'll be finding out in about a week if I fucked up in switching to Sensi. I was still very pleased in how the Sensi finished the buds out. Even so, if the bud set isn't as good with the Sensi, I'll go to the Connoiseur right away. Even though it will be too late on the set, if it's really that good, I want to see what it does in the later stages. I hate the fact that I'm pushing AN products. At least I can still shit talk their over-the-top amount of additives.


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## TheLastWood (Oct 13, 2011)

I've never bought, used or researched AN. I know nothin about it except its expensive, they have 3 of everything just in different bottles, and 90% of ppl hate them.

Good luck tho, hope the sensi works out for u.


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## mellokitty (Oct 13, 2011)

the wedding is still off.


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## tommyo3000 (Oct 13, 2011)

lolz
I read that 50% of marriages end in divorce over Advanced Nutrients..


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## collective gardener (Oct 13, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> the wedding is still off.


 
It was just a matter of time before you came charging in the door, chainsaw in hand. Why do you think I said I was dreading this topic. I'm between a rock and a hard place. I have a huge yield from AN in one hand, and my best online growing buddy, Kitty, on the other. What's a motherfucker to do?


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## mellokitty (Oct 13, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> It was just a matter of time before you came charging in the door, chainsaw in hand. Why do you think I said I was dreading this topic. I'm between a rock and a hard place. I have a huge yield from AN in one hand, and my best online growing buddy, Kitty, on the other. What's a motherfucker to do?


chainsaw? no, this is more like you just came home to a beeeyooootifully prepared meal, right up to and including homemade chocolate-dipped-strawberry-cheesecake, and kitty glowering in the dark in a french maid's outfit and runny makeup quietly asking where you've been all night.

i'm not super concerned. you've only just started your nute experiment extravaganza.


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 13, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> chainsaw? no, this is more like you just came home to a beeeyooootifully prepared meal, right up to and including homemade chocolate-dipped-strawberry-cheesecake, and kitty glowering in the dark in a french maid's outfit and runny makeup quietly asking where you've been all night.
> 
> i'm not super concerned. you've only just started your nute experiment extravaganza.


haha..........................you got you hands full CG


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## TheLastWood (Oct 13, 2011)

Don't hate the player, hate the game


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## collective gardener (Oct 13, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> chainsaw? no, this is more like you just came home to a beeeyooootifully prepared meal, right up to and including homemade chocolate-dipped-strawberry-cheesecake, and kitty glowering in the dark in a french maid's outfit and runny makeup quietly asking where you've been all night.
> 
> i'm not super concerned. you've only just started your nute experiment extravaganza.


OK OK...I give up. I'll throw it all away tomorrow...and the plants fed with it. Down with AN. How DARE you play the runny makeup card?


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## Jozikins (Oct 14, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I've always felt that if you're not growing live soil organic, there's no need for carbs to feed a microherd that isn't there. This is the same reason I wouldn't use AN's Pirahna, Tarantula, and any other bio's in the line. I have tried to mix chem nutes with myco's, fungi, and bacterias (along with carbs to feed them all) with zero improvements. But, when growing live soil organic, these additives are the life blood of the medium. I think that these additives should be classified in AN's Organic line. I also question AN's repetition of magnesium sulfate in Bud Candy and Bud Factor X (and I think one more). Maybe there's more to these than the mag sulfate listed, but they really should say so. Instead of paying $92 for a liter of Bud Factor X (with just ,5% mag), I went with my old standby Cutting Edge Mag Amp with 1% mag at $25/liter.
> 
> I am very pleased with the results from the AN nutes I used. I still am very conservative over what $$$ I will spend on additives. I can't help but feeling that there's a big hard dick aimed right at my ass, just waiting for me to slip up and take the monetary ass rape of a lifetime. For the time being, I'm sticking with Sensi Bloom (maybe back to Connoiser), Big Bud, B-52, and Overdrive. These are what gave me the killer results on the harvest being trimmed right now. The only unknown is how much the Connoiser helped. I used it for the first 3 weeks of bloom till I ran out...then switched to Sensi Bloom. If it was the Connoiseur that gave me the node spacing, I'd have no problem paying up for that in the future. The increase in yield just from the tighter nodes added up to several thousand dollars.


I've had contrary results, but with a crop the size of yours I can see why you are skeptical and hesitant to gamble. I have always noticed a difference with carbohydrate products, despite my method of growing. Granted I do everything like a soil grower, as I am, but I have played around with lots of different mediums. My living rockwool experiment got canned by the way, ended up being a herm, I was sexing a few clones for a friend and 1 ended up being herm, 1 ended up male, and 1 ended up female, with only 1 female to experiment with it was hardly worth it, so they were all thrown in the trash. But personally, I am not impressed with the microbe products from AN, not a lot of bang for your buck when I have so many other choices But using microbe products alone with synthetics is pretty useless on its own, come to think of it. My results have always been because of my tea products, my microbes can survive at all in a synthetic nutrient solution without a strong home base, and that is my tea. I have always seen explosive results from adding tea to any kind of line up, the roots do not lie. I know you haven't had the opportunity to get in on the fun, but there are lots of easy, inexpensive, and effective recipes here on RIU, might as well add that to the experimentation. Tea really helps stretch your nutes too, I have saved a buttload of money with it as well. Infact, I really like the Liquid Carboload for making tea, but blackstrap molasses is usually my fungi food of choice.

Magnesium Sulfate in any form has been an ally for me with almost every product line up I have used that doesn't already include a supplement for it. But using microbe products alone with synthetics is pretty useless on its own, come to think of it. A


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 14, 2011)

so check this shit out CG my local shop carrys AN and isnt a big pusher of it but they do carry all there nute line! chillin with the shop
owner and he gets a phone call from a VP in sale from AN, and to cut to the chase they say thank you for your bisness and sales of
nutes but they would like him to start carry the badass line of AN products! well he and I know those products are shit and you would
be crazy to buy them! so he politley says no thanks, then they say as of the 1st of oct to carry any AN products you must carry all of
them! likw wtf!!!!!!! so he blows his top and tells them to go fuck themselfs lol was the funnyest shit ever. well they do know how to
market/push there products


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## Beansly (Oct 14, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> OK OK...I give up. I'll throw it all away tomorrow...and the plants fed with it. Down with AN. How DARE you play the runny makeup card?


Wha--? I'll pay for shipping...send ME the nutrients lol.
sorry but between a married woman and buds...it's kindof a no brainer lol
Besides, I always assume everyone on the Internet is a 40 year old, bald man. hehe


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## collective gardener (Oct 14, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> so check this shit out CG my local shop carrys AN and isnt a big pusher of it but they do carry all there nute line! chillin with the shop
> owner and he gets a phone call from a VP in sale from AN, and to cut to the chase they say thank you for your bisness and sales of
> nutes but they would like him to start carry the badass line of AN products! well he and I know those products are shit and you would
> be crazy to buy them! so he politley says no thanks, then they say as of the 1st of oct to carry any AN products you must carry all of
> ...


I know exactly what you speak of. AN pulled that shit with my local hydro shop, too. They put up a little Bad Ass display in the corner. Of the 2 or 3 Bad Ass units that sold, half came back within a month. My hydro shop owner passed that info on to AN, along with notice that they would no longer display Bad Ass products. They keep like 2 ballasts, 2 inlines, and 2 fans on a shelf in the back warehouse. In exchange for the display, my hydro shop owner just agreed to put up 3 Bad Ass posters. 

I also got my grimy little hands on the Advanced Nutrients sales records for the past 3 years in my local store. It's a pretty good indicator of what everybody else is doing with the nutes. Obviously, Sensi Bloom and Big Bud are number one. Alot of people paying up for the Bud Factor X as well. My friend who uses pretty much the whole line swears by that shit. He said there was a big yield improvement when he started using the Bud Factor X, and that there's more to it than just magnesium sulfate.

On a side note, my room almost burned down yesterday. I'm still working offshore, but my wife was there when a cheap lighting timer failed and caused the power cord plug to melt, and then start throwing flames. Lots of drama. She said all 12 of the timers are very hot, as well as 3 plugs. We ordered 2 CAP 8 light controlllers that Commercial J will install for me today in I am not back from fishing. Also found out that Phantom Ballasts can operate on a voltage from 90 volts to 275 volts. I was running 110v because my 220 leg is only 190 volts. This killed 3 Lumatek ballasts. But, now all my ballasts are Phantom, and I'm going to the 220V leg...even though it's just 190v.


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## mellokitty (Oct 14, 2011)

don't forget the spaghetti-strap diapers.


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## mellokitty (Oct 14, 2011)

oh my. 
that's hella scary. 
thank goodness she was there before it started...... (i almost burned my apartment building, back in the day... was really happy i'd called in sick that day )


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## tommyo3000 (Oct 14, 2011)

speaking of disasters.. I flooded my floor yesterday with 25 gallons of nutrient....
ebay has battery powered floor moisture sensors with LOUD beeping for like $3.50 a piece.. I ordered a bunch for everywhere....


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 14, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I know exactly what you speak of. AN pulled that shit with my local hydro shop, too. They put up a little Bad Ass display in the corner. Of the 2 or 3 Bad Ass units that sold, half came back within a month. My hydro shop owner passed that info on to AN, along with notice that they would no longer display Bad Ass products. They keep like 2 ballasts, 2 inlines, and 2 fans on a shelf in the back warehouse. In exchange for the display, my hydro shop owner just agreed to put up 3 Bad Ass posters.
> 
> I also got my grimy little hands on the Advanced Nutrients sales records for the past 3 years in my local store. It's a pretty good indicator of what everybody else is doing with the nutes. Obviously, Sensi Bloom and Big Bud are number one. Alot of people paying up for the Bud Factor X as well. My friend who uses pretty much the whole line swears by that shit. He said there was a big yield improvement when he started using the Bud Factor X, and that there's more to it than just magnesium sulfate.
> 
> On a side note, my room almost burned down yesterday. I'm still working offshore, but my wife was there when a cheap lighting timer failed and caused the power cord plug to melt, and then start throwing flames. Lots of drama. She said all 12 of the timers are very hot, as well as 3 plugs. We ordered 2 CAP 8 light controlllers that Commercial J will install for me today in I am not back from fishing. Also found out that Phantom Ballasts can operate on a voltage from 90 volts to 275 volts. I was running 110v because my 220 leg is only 190 volts. This killed 3 Lumatek ballasts. But, now all my ballasts are Phantom, and I'm going to the 220V leg...even though it's just 190v.


Hey cg i use those MLC8 and there awsome never a issue


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## tommyo3000 (Oct 14, 2011)

i use MLC4 and love it...
I added a high temp cutoff..


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## C.Indica (Oct 14, 2011)

Wow lot's of drama.
Sucks that the timers went out, good think your wife was there.
Offshore fishing, how far from the coast?

Where do you keep your Sativa genetics? I know you have some, I'm interested in the way you preserve THIS batch, not the regular tahoes and such.


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## collective gardener (Oct 14, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> Wow lot's of drama.
> Sucks that the timers went out, good think your wife was there.
> Offshore fishing, how far from the coast?
> 
> Where do you keep your Sativa genetics? I know you have some, I'm interested in the way you preserve THIS batch, not the regular tahoes and such.


 
I do marine engineering. Basically, outfit, refit, and maintain ocean going vessels. We just did a major re-fit on a long liner and I had to go out on the first trip to work any bugs out. Pretty boring, though. Good thing we have internet onboard. We were out about 800 miles on this trip. The last trip on this boat was almost 2000 miles for 3 weeks. That was back when I had Helper D to hold down the fort. My wife has been doing a great job. Commercial J is there for backup, and checks on her everyday. It's great to see my plants after being gone for over a week. You can really see the size increase alot more than when you see them everyday. Although, she sends me pics everyday: "This leaf has a little brown spot...did I fuck something up?" She's scared of fucking something up. I keep telling here that they're just fucking weeds. Mix the nutes and put it on the plants. Try not to burn the fucking place to the ground. 

I have 1 sativa. The 16 week tower of power. I just veg it off to the side in a very small pot under very low light with very little nutes to keep growth slow. When it gets to about 3 feet tall, I take 4 cuts and throw the rest away. When we want to bloom it, we just put a rooted clone into the bloom room, Bushmaster the fuck out of it, top it, supercrop it, LST it, and if we're lucky we can keep it under 4 feet tall. For the last couple months it's been at a friends op making money. He's got some commercial Sativa buyers paying big $$$ for true sativas. He settup a BAVERB room like MellowKitty's without the T-5 overhead lighting just for the sativas. They grow em about 7 feet tall. It's taken him a while, but he's getting the technique down. It's not like Canada. We don't have alot of experience with that type of lighting settup. Kitty says all her buddies grow that way. It's pretty productive, but takes alot of floor space. He actually is trying putting 4 of the lights (2 high and 2 low) on light movers moving back and forth down the lighting row about 6 feet. It's working very good. The plants look very even.


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## C.Indica (Oct 15, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I do marine engineering. Basically, outfit, refit, and maintain ocean going vessels. We just did a major re-fit on a long liner and I had to go out on the first trip to work any bugs out. Pretty boring, though. Good thing we have internet onboard. We were out about 800 miles on this trip. The last trip on this boat was almost 2000 miles for 3 weeks. That was back when I had Helper D to hold down the fort. My wife has been doing a great job. Commercial J is there for backup, and checks on her everyday. It's great to see my plants after being gone for over a week. You can really see the size increase alot more than when you see them everyday. Although, she sends me pics everyday: "This leaf has a little brown spot...did I fuck something up?" She's scared of fucking something up. I keep telling here that they're just fucking weeds. Mix the nutes and put it on the plants. Try not to burn the fucking place to the ground.
> 
> I have 1 sativa. The 16 week tower of power. I just veg it off to the side in a very small pot under very low light with very little nutes to keep growth slow. When it gets to about 3 feet tall, I take 4 cuts and throw the rest away. When we want to bloom it, we just put a rooted clone into the bloom room, Bushmaster the fuck out of it, top it, supercrop it, LST it, and if we're lucky we can keep it under 4 feet tall. For the last couple months it's been at a friends op making money. He's got some commercial Sativa buyers paying big $$$ for true sativas. He settup a BAVERB room like MellowKitty's without the T-5 overhead lighting just for the sativas. They grow em about 7 feet tall. It's taken him a while, but he's getting the technique down. It's not like Canada. We don't have alot of experience with that type of lighting settup. Kitty says all her buddies grow that way. It's pretty productive, but takes alot of floor space. He actually is trying putting 4 of the lights (2 high and 2 low) on light movers moving back and forth down the lighting row about 6 feet. It's working very good. The plants look very even.


I literally cracked up out loud on the second paragraph..
16 week tower of power, hahahaha

I'm running a bonsai mom right now, and she's gone from 60w-13w due to shitty 42w cfls I bought from Home Depot burning out one by one.
But now that I read your technique, you relaxed my stress immensly, thanks a ton for that.

I'm just going to keep her under the 13w, and lower her nute schedule.
She's the fattest vegging plant I've ever kept, and she's in like a 4" plastic pot.

CG thanks so much! I'm filled with newbound excitement for my bonsai mother now.

I like your story of the sativas, I want to grow the trees some day.
And I think I have a good theory based technique down already.

Any chance you have pictures of a Tower grow?
I'd love to see how she performs.

2000 miles.. wow.
I've only ever been TO the ocean, never out in it, what's it like? I'm semi scared of the distance.


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## mellokitty (Oct 15, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Try not to burn the fucking place to the ground.



i hope she kicks your ass for that when you get home.


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## collective gardener (Oct 16, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> i hope she kicks your ass for that when you get home.


Rest assured second wife...first wife is thoroughly pissed off at me for throwing her into the deep end of the pool with so little training. She'd probably send you a plane ticket if you wanted to fly to Cali and hold me down while she repeatedly beat me about the face and neck with a watering wand. You guys can strap me to a growing tray under the lights and pour AN nutes down my throat. That would be big fun for wife 2. I'm sure the 2 of you could just have a good ol time...smoking my weed and coming up with new and interesting ways to make me pay for leaving her in charge.


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## C.Indica (Oct 16, 2011)

Ouch.. being strapped under an HID is one thing, but throw in AN nutes? Ouch.

Hey CG, I need a recommendation an a good SQUARE 400w reflector hood.
And I know you're the one to come to. So thanks a ton if you can help me out.
I'm planning on building a closet for it 3' wide.
So it would be a single light grow in a 3'x3'x6' closet.

My only terms are that it isn't flimsy, so it'll withstand some stress,
and that it's not rediculously expensive.
Cheapest reflector I found is like $40, but it looks flimsy.
So I'm expecting to pay up near $80, but try not to scare me with the $100+ range.

I don't necessarily need a cooltube since I can't afford it and can always clear out hot air the old fashioned way.


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## collective gardener (Oct 16, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> Ouch.. being strapped under an HID is one thing, but throw in AN nutes? Ouch.
> 
> Hey CG, I need a recommendation an a good SQUARE 400w reflector hood.
> And I know you're the one to come to. So thanks a ton if you can help me out.
> ...


Do not skimp on reflectors. I wish I had spent $200 on XXXL's or Raptors rather than $100 on the CAPs.

For square nothing beats the BlockBuster by Sunshine Supply. I have 4 of em in my veg room. The lens is hinged for easy cleaning. This is a very iportant feature. It's built super strong. I did a light test with them when we first fired up the op. The light is cast very even with the BlockBuster, and in a near nerfect square. Don't cheap out. Cough up the 2 bills and get some decent equipment. The only decent reflector I know of in the $100 dollar range is the CAP Luminare 6 or 8. This is the most bang for the buck. Hinged glass, good seal, and overall quality construction. The light cast is not as even as the higher quality reflectors. I have 12 of these and they work fine. Someday I will upgrade to the mondo big XXXL units.


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## mellokitty (Oct 16, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Rest assured second wife...first wife is thoroughly pissed off at me for throwing her into the deep end of the pool with so little training. She'd probably send you a plane ticket if you wanted to fly to Cali and hold me down while she repeatedly beat me about the face and neck with a watering wand. You guys can strap me to a growing tray under the lights and pour AN nutes down my throat. That would be big fun for wife 2. I'm sure the 2 of you could just have a good ol time...smoking my weed and coming up with new and interesting ways to make me pay for leaving her in charge.


i would never hear the end of it if something like that happened while i was in charge..... i would have fun poked at me til the end of days. and thank you, by the way, for my renewed interest in fire extinguisher placement. 

as to your punishment, i'm not entirely sure you're not just _fantasizing_ at this point... 
knowing me, there would be some sort of just-out-of-reach baked goods too. i would love to have a recipe swap with wife 1.


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## SupaM (Oct 16, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Do not skimp on reflectors. I wish I had spent $200 on XXXL's or Raptors rather than $100 on the CAPs.
> 
> For square nothing beats the BlockBuster by Sunshine Supply. I have 4 of em in my veg room. The lens is hinged for easy cleaning. This is a very iportant feature. It's built super strong. I did a light test with them when we first fired up the op. The light is cast very even with the BlockBuster, and in a near nerfect square. Don't cheap out. Cough up the 2 bills and get some decent equipment. The only decent reflector I know of in the $100 dollar range is the CAP Luminare 6 or 8. This is the most bang for the buck. Hinged glass, good seal, and overall quality construction. The light cast is not as even as the higher quality reflectors. I have 12 of these and they work fine. Someday I will upgrade to the mondo big XXXL units.


You can get BlockBusters for $129 at www.plantlightinghydroponics.com, btw. I put my 400 in a SuperNova by HTGsupply at first, and it was only 
$89. Hope that helps.
CG, I'm debating the BlockBusters atm....Do you think I can cover an 8x4 with 2BB w/ 2 600w's effectively? Since it;s essentially two squares...
Thanks for your advice.


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## Beansly (Oct 16, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Rest assured second wife...first wife is thoroughly pissed off at me for throwing her into the deep end of the pool with so little training. She'd probably send you a plane ticket if you wanted to fly to Cali and hold me down while she repeatedly beat me about the face and neck with a watering wand. You guys can strap me to a growing tray under the lights and pour AN nutes down my throat. That would be big fun for wife 2. I'm sure the 2 of you could just have a good ol time...smoking my weed and coming up with new and interesting ways to make me pay for leaving her in charge.


(()) ...then what would she do....?


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 16, 2011)

hey beansly when you going to get your next grow going?


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## Beansly (Oct 16, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> hey beansly when you going to get your next grow going?


 I'm cloning my plushberrys for sex right now and the ones that are female, I have to grow big enough to take like 25 clones from (I'm assuming I'll get 3 females from 5 plants). I want to do the SOG method the way CG was talking about, with maybe a few less plants the first time around (75-100). After they root, I'll veg them maybe a week or two and flower them. 
I'm thinking it'll take another 5-6 weeks to get the plants big enough to take all the clones I'll need. I'll be moving up to a 600w light too.


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## collective gardener (Oct 16, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> i would never hear the end of it if something like that happened while i was in charge..... i would have fun poked at me til the end of days. and thank you, by the way, for my renewed interest in fire extinguisher placement.
> 
> as to your punishment, i'm not entirely sure you're not just _fantasizing_ at this point...
> knowing me, there would be some sort of just-out-of-reach baked goods too. i would love to have a recipe swap with wife 1.


 
Funny you mentioned recipe swap. I got home this morning and she was laying in bed reading the High Times Edibles Special Edition. Here we are at 4pm and she's still reading some other edibles book. The dry ice kief method is working so good that she's all pumped up to start cranking out the goodies. We found a commercial kitchen we can rent by the day. It's all Health Department approved...very important if you want to vend edibles to the nicer Los Angeles dispensaries. They're doing away with home chefs.


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## collective gardener (Oct 16, 2011)

SupaM said:


> You can get BlockBusters for $129 at www.plantlightinghydroponics.com, btw. I put my 400 in a SuperNova by HTGsupply at first, and it was only
> $89. Hope that helps.
> CG, I'm debating the BlockBusters atm....Do you think I can cover an 8x4 with 2BB w/ 2 600w's effectively? Since it;s essentially two squares...
> Thanks for your advice.



I think that's a little light on the watts per sq ft (37 wpsf). I like at least 50 wpsf.


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## C.Indica (Oct 16, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I think that's a little light on the watts per sq ft (37 wpsf). I like at least 50 wpsf.


CG, should I just take that $129 offer for the BlockBuster right now?
I'm harvesting soon so in a month that would become affordable.


If they're good enough for your standards, then I'm fine with getting the CAP @ $75, over the BB @ $129 
I'm sure you'd understand.
The only question is again, how durable is this thing?

Also I think I'm looking at a NextGen 400w ballast for $130.
Especially if I go with the CAP reflector.



The only thing that would change my mind is this ballast,
Is this ballast compatible with the BlockBuster 8?
http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/galaxy-400w-120v240v-electronic-ballast-p-1985.html

If they match up then I'll go for the BB.
I'm starting to really consider the BB since it's so close.


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## kamie (Oct 16, 2011)

SupaM said:


> You can get BlockBusters for $129 at www.plantlightinghydroponics.com, btw. I put my 400 in a SuperNova by HTGsupply at first, and it was only
> $89. Hope that helps.
> CG, I'm debating the BlockBusters atm....Do you think I can cover an 8x4 with 2BB w/ 2 600w's effectively? Since it;s essentially two squares...
> Thanks for your advice.


Is that store legit? i been trying to find a good place to buy equiptment in Nor Cal. but alot of the stores around my area is over priced. The blockbuster 8 in aircooled. goes for $160 before tax and on that site its 129 which seems like a great deal


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## incognegro999 (Oct 16, 2011)

Hey gardener, been a long time, Im getting ready for next grow and thought i'd pop in. Glad to see your still kicking around here haha, and I have about 100 pages of details to get caught up on


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## collective gardener (Oct 17, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> CG, should I just take that $129 offer for the BlockBuster right now?
> I'm harvesting soon so in a month that would become affordable.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Both the CAP and the BB are durable no nonsense ballasts that will last a lifetime. The BB will cast better light on your plants. All ballasts are compatable with all reflectors. There's only 2 plug styles and adaptors are avaiable.

IMO, nothing beats a Phantom ballst. 5 year warranty, and the guys at my hydro store have NEVER had one come back. I cooked 3 Lumatek ballasts before finally going 100% Phantom in my bloom room. I still have 3 Lumateks in veg waiting to fry. The Phantom will run on anything between 90 volts and 275 volts. They wall mount 2 inches off the wall to provide air circulation all the way around it. It comes with the adaptor to run either light plug style. These things are work horses.


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## InsaneMJ (Oct 17, 2011)

I've been thinking about replacing my ballasts and going to digital, is it actually worth it to switch from magnetic ballasts to digital ballasts? I read that overall you will get more lumens out of your bulb. At the same time I want to make sure that it's worth it, my magnetic ballasts have been great since I started growing. Also I read that the Digi's are more efficient then the magnetic ballasts overall. So I'm curious on if it does make a difference in the cost of your electricity bill?
-I.MJ


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 17, 2011)

InsaneMJ said:


> I've been thinking about replacing my ballasts and going to digital, is it actually worth it to switch from magnetic ballasts to digital ballasts? I read that overall you will get more lumens out of your bulb. At the same time I want to make sure that it's worth it, my magnetic ballasts have been great since I started growing. Also I read that the Digi's are more efficient then the magnetic ballasts overall. So I'm curious on if it does make a difference in the cost of your electricity bill?
> -I.MJ


Won't help much at all on electrical costs, the advantages are less heat and consistent power supply, quicker warmup, and voltage/bulb flexibility.


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## aknight3 (Oct 17, 2011)

dear cg,

ive probably had this thread up on my laptop for about a month, between life and work and other things it took me about that long to read all 180 pages haha, all of this is simply amazing to me, this is actually the first time in about a year that ive even posted here, alot of shit has come up in the past year and being in a non medical state ive stopped growiing entirley and sort of took a ''hiatus'' if you will, seeing and hearing all this wonderful stuff though has really put a fire in me to start up again, not sure why, ive always loved growing so much but i guess when life takes over other things become priority over growing, but after seeing all this, thats going to change really soon, as i said before im not in a med state so its hard enough for me to begin with, however within the next two years i will be moving to california as thats where most of my family is anyways, on one side anyways, i just want to say your doing an amazing job and an amazing thing for people and not only do i respect it but i applaud it, i want to thank you for putting a fire back in me that was put out long ago by fear, paranoia and other circumstances, i currently cant just start up a grow as im not in the right position to do so, but as soon as i can i will get one in and then get out there to a legal place asap, this thread has really re opened my eyes to how much i really LOVE doing this, ive always wanted to do something like this to help people and give back to the community, however its impossible to do here, so i gujess i have to go somewhere that i can do it, anyways i wont go on, this is my first post in about a year and i wont make it a story book, i just wanted to say thank you again sincerley from the bottom of my heart and will really never forget this thread, its truely amazing, i wish you the best of luck in the future and hope someday i can do something half this and help people in a fraction of a way u are, thanks bye


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## SupaM (Oct 17, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I think that's a little light on the watts per sq ft (37 wpsf). I like at least 50 wpsf.


Thanks big guy, I appreciate your input. However, I run the 600's because it's a 8x4x6.5 tent and heat in those things is my biggest issue. 
Working my way up..... all the Best to a really respectable gardener! Love this Thread!!


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## SupaM (Oct 17, 2011)

kamie said:


> Is that store legit? i been trying to find a good place to buy equiptment in Nor Cal. but alot of the stores around my area is over priced. The blockbuster 8 in aircooled. goes for $160 before tax and on that site its 129 which seems like a great deal


They are Uber legit, IMVHO..... I just ordered my BlockBuster there today. I have placed a couple orders there including my ($99) 8" vent fan. 
There prices are hard to beat, and they have some of everything. btw, found them in a thread right here at RIU! Sorry for the sidebar CG.


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## C.Indica (Oct 17, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Both the CAP and the BB are durable no nonsense ballasts that will last a lifetime. The BB will cast better light on your plants. All ballasts are compatable with all reflectors. There's only 2 plug styles and adaptors are avaiable.
> 
> IMO, nothing beats a Phantom ballst. 5 year warranty, and the guys at my hydro store have NEVER had one come back. I cooked 3 Lumatek ballasts before finally going 100% Phantom in my bloom room. I still have 3 Lumateks in veg waiting to fry. The Phantom will run on anything between 90 volts and 275 volts. They wall mount 2 inches off the wall to provide air circulation all the way around it. It comes with the adaptor to run either light plug style. These things are work horses.


I'm in a pickle, At first I was looking at the CAP ($75) + NextGen ballast ($130) totaling $205.
Now you have me trying to get the Phantom at ($130) and the BlockBuster ($130) totaling $260.
Add shipping on top of that, and I'm over the top.
I could do the BlockBuster + Galaxy for $230.

I'm more than happy to buy the BlockBuster, but ballast-wise,
between Galaxy 400w and Phantom 400w for a $30 difference,
is it worth that $30 to the hobby growing youngin'?

My efficiency doesn't matter too much, I'm not making a business out of my gardening.


And another thing, I have a ballast for my bulb, it's a Fixture+Ballast type deal.
I could rewire it to become remote.. is there any reason to avoid using a re-wired ballast?
I'll score pictures later tonight if I can remember.

By the way, thanks a ton for all the help.
You established this thread simply to share a warehouse experience.
And then you had the heart enough to help countless growers countless times.
Thanks


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 17, 2011)

/thread derailment...


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## InsaneMJ (Oct 18, 2011)

How are your girls doing CG? Been alittle bit since I've seen an updated post. Also I'm curious on if you've done a run with Connssoisseur all the way through the flower cycle? I saw that you switched to sensi bloom during week 3 in one of your runs also. Have you done an entire run with just the Sensi Bloom also? I'm curious to see if the Connssoisseur gives off a higher yield then the sensi. 
-I.MJ


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 18, 2011)

InsaneMJ said:


> How are your girls doing CG? Been alittle bit since I've seen an updated post. Also I'm curious on if you've done a run with Connssoisseur all the way through the flower cycle? I saw that you switched to sensi bloom during week 3 in one of your runs also. Have you done an entire run with just the Sensi Bloom also? I'm curious to see if the Connssoisseur gives off a higher yield then the sensi.
> -I.MJ


Read the thread, man.


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## InsaneMJ (Oct 18, 2011)

Lol, I've read the entire thing atleast twice now. He never says anything about doing a run all the way threw with either sensi bloom or connoisseur. He says he stopped week 3 and started using the sensibloom when he did use the connoisseur. 
I don't see your point here. Unless it has to do with him being away at sea.


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 18, 2011)

InsaneMJ said:


> Lol, I've read the entire thing atleast twice now. He never says anything about doing a run all the way threw with either sensi bloom or connoisseur. He says he stopped week 3 and started using the sensibloom when he did use the connoisseur.
> I don't see your point here. Unless it has to do with him being away at sea.


Just that he was pretty clear that he would like to try a full run using Connoisseur, but never has. He said a couple of times that if it that's what gave him the node spacing and bud set, that he would gladly pay the extra cost. Not trying to be a dick, but until recently this thread has stayed remarkably on topic, and I'd like to (and I'm sure CG as well) keep it that way. It's a good thread.


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## Clonex (Oct 18, 2011)

Subbed , seems Collective knows his stuff , very impressive , i copied your letter and showed it to David Cameron , he said "sure thing , grow away , "chuck me some nuggs" ahaa i wish - look at you in your warehouse space , i get to hang around in lofts and basements ......no fair !! -Clonex.


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## InsaneMJ (Oct 18, 2011)

See that's what I was refering too. I wasn't sure if he's done a full run with either though, so I figured why not go head and ask since it's been awhile since I read about the test.. And I don't think the derailment of this thread had anything to do with me because I'm asking him about the types of nutes hes using and the results along with a updated picture. Can't we all just smoke a bowl? lol 



Wolverine97 said:


> Just that he was pretty clear that he would like to try a full run using Connoisseur, but never has. He said a couple of times that if it that's what gave him the node spacing and bud set, that he would gladly pay the extra cost. Not trying to be a dick, but until recently this thread has stayed remarkably on topic, and I'd like to (and I'm sure CG as well) keep it that way. It's a good thread.


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## mellokitty (Oct 18, 2011)

cg, what inoculant did you say you used in your teas again? <3


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 18, 2011)

InsaneMJ said:


> See that's what I was refering too. I wasn't sure if he's done a full run with either though, so I figured why not go head and ask since it's been awhile since I read about the test.. And I don't think the derailment of this thread had anything to do with me because I'm asking him about the types of nutes hes using and the results along with a updated picture. Can't we all just smoke a bowl? lol


I know, I was being an overzealous thread nazi again. I e-pologize.


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 18, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> cg, what inoculant did you say you used in your teas again? <3


And lil miss kitty here is just begging for it...


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## mellokitty (Oct 18, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> And lil miss kitty here is just begging for it...


.... _¿qué?_ ..... 

no, seriously. 
mr kitty just said i can start experiment with brewing teas so long as i keep it contained and promise to be responsible for any..... "incidents".
and hubby #2 mentioned something about using an inoculant at some point.


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 18, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> .... _¿qué?_ .....
> 
> no, seriously.
> mr kitty just said i can start experiment with brewing teas so long as i keep it contained and promise to be responsible for any..... "incidents".
> and hubby #2 mentioned something about using an inoculant at some point.


I'm just going to stop typing... I was joking about my thread derailment post. Anhow, just got out of a dogfight, a real dogfight, and my hand is pretty mangled so I think I will stop typing fro a while, it hurts. My dog (pit/boxer) and the neighbor dog (rott/lab) were fighting for real, one would have surely died. I had to jump into it and pulll their mouths opoen. I do not recommend this, the neighbor dog bit stright through a finger nail and into the other side of same finger, smashed/punctured my thumb and generally ruined my night. The dpgs will both make it ok, but they're torn up pretty good. sorry about the misspellings, I'm typing w/ bandages on. 

/thread derailment complete


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## TheLastWood (Oct 18, 2011)

You should have just hit your neighbors dog with a shovel. Sorry bout your hand, that sucks.

Kitty, experimenting with teas does sound like fun. Someday if I do organic id definately get into that.

I also would like to do a worm bin. That would be cool.


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## budbro18 (Oct 18, 2011)

Yo! you should get superroots air pots. They save a bunch of dirt because they dont allow root circling. check em out!
http://www.superoots.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NUjNBKex0I
at least give them a shot. theyll change the rate of growth and size of your plants. 
Ive grown with them several times and havent used a regular pot in over 2 years.


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## Jozikins (Oct 19, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> .... _¿qué?_ .....
> 
> no, seriously.
> mr kitty just said i can start experiment with brewing teas so long as i keep it contained and promise to be responsible for any..... "incidents".
> and hubby #2 mentioned something about using an inoculant at some point.



These resources are so good I might post them on your page too, because everyone should at least glimpse it. These are the two resources that either provided me or directed to an arsenal of information, and allowed me to brew professional quality teas right off the back with incredible explosive results.

http://urbangardenmagazine.com/2011/02/breeding-microbes-with-compost-tea/ <<<Comprehensive mother fucking treasure trove. Read this one good, it provides some amazing references too!

and

https://www.rollitup.org/dwc-bubbleponics/361430-dwc-root-slime-cure-aka.html

The second link is a basic recipe and an explanation of how all this works, it is not just useful for DWC growers, but soil growers. That was my formula for a long time until I found a use for my guanos in the tea, as well as many other ingredients eventually. I like to use the Zho like Heisenberg suggests. I am sure CG is using a similar high quality product like Great White or maybe the Subculture products. I like the Zho because it is affordable, and gives me high quality, high quantity, endo mycorrhizae and trichoderma, as well as an l-glycine amino acid. Definitely recommend using a product like Aqua Shield or chicken compost if you can get a hold of it, so you can get the benefits of bacillus subtilis, which is amazing in both foliar sprays and for the roots health, natural mold killer. 

Anyways, make sure you read over both real well, nothing gets my jollies off like making my own fertilizer and sticking it to the man.


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## Umlah000 (Oct 19, 2011)

Very impressive - 400 amp electrical setup, 20 Kw of lighting . . . my curiosity is, that's a LOT of heat. I'm guessing you might be using 1K watt halides or something similar?

Actually, excess heat from the lighting can be a good thing, up to a point. But this can also be a disaster, if not ventilated correctly? I'm not planning on using anything close to 20 Kw of lighting, but even in a smaller, more compact setting, the lighting vs heat vs ventilation is a question that's been on mind as of late. This seems like the sort of question you or others here would have some commentary on . . . any thoughts about this are appreciated


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 19, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> You should have just hit your neighbors dog with a shovel. Sorry bout your hand, that sucks.
> 
> Kitty, experimenting with teas does sound like fun. Someday if I do organic id definately get into that.
> 
> I also would like to do a worm bin. That would be cool.


Impossible. They were going around like a friggin tornado, and I doubt it would've done any good. Didn't have much choice but to just dive in there. And really, it was my dogs fault, he's an asshole sometimes.


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## mellokitty (Oct 19, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I'm just going to stop typing... I was joking about my thread derailment post. Anhow, just got out of a dogfight, a real dogfight, and my hand is pretty mangled so I think I will stop typing fro a while, it hurts. My dog (pit/boxer) and the neighbor dog (rott/lab) were fighting for real, one would have surely died. I had to jump into it and pulll their mouths opoen. I do not recommend this, the neighbor dog bit stright through a finger nail and into the other side of same finger, smashed/punctured my thumb and generally ruined my night. The dpgs will both make it ok, but they're torn up pretty good. sorry about the misspellings, I'm typing w/ bandages on.
> 
> /thread derailment complete


wolvie.... omg.... i would come by with a care package and a kiss-it-better... GET BETTER!!!
hand injuries are the worst!


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## mellokitty (Oct 19, 2011)

*sigh*......
*organs and violins*
*moment of silence for Urban Garden Magazine*....

thank you jozi for reminding me that i have to go and c&p EVERYTHING USEFUL on there before the _evil empire_ decides to revamp the webpage too ..... 

more than likely for my first experiment i'm going to start with mushroom compost and vermi-poo for a base.... 
mr kitty is in the DOGHOUSE right now.... we were talking aboot teas and i was all excited about gathering up brewing apparatus when he says... "you know i have the vermi-t extractor that so-and-so gave me, right?" turns out we've had a tea-brewing fucking UNIT kicking around for MONTHS now. 

.... and there you go, it's MY turn to derail the thread.


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## tommyo3000 (Oct 19, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> *sigh*......
> *organs and violins*
> *moment of silence for Urban Garden Magazine*....
> 
> ...


this will help


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## tommyo3000 (Oct 19, 2011)

and this too will help...
good article about tea
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/sfi_approach3.html#Anaerobiccompost

this will help u laugh:


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## tommyo3000 (Oct 19, 2011)

Hey CG,

I've been doing a lot of reading lately... Budfactor X is rebranded scorpion juice plus harpin protein.
Scorpion juice is chitin and salicylic acid; harpin protein is a protein that some bacterium makes and ... it all adds up to building up systemic resistance.. So the NPK are there on the bottles, but the ingredients that do the work are obfuscated..
I know you said you don't care about growth regulators, etc, but if you want to mix your own you can save a billion dollars..


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 19, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> wolvie.... omg.... i would come by with a care package and a kiss-it-better... GET BETTER!!!
> hand injuries are the worst!


Thanks ms kitty. Dogs will be dogs I suppose. It was a terrible scene, but could've been much worse. Luckily my neighbors are very cool, this is the second time that's happened. I'd be fucking irate if I were them, considering my dog started it.


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## mike91sr (Oct 19, 2011)

wolverine, sorry to hear about the dogs. Always sucks when they get into it. Advice, if you can apply it (I know its damn near impossible, 1st hand experience but it does work): grab one by the hind legs and start pulling/running like theres no tomorrow. If you circle back they cant get at you, preventing your own injury. You just need someone to keep the other dog from suddenly having the advantage.

tommyo, thats intense. made my day


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## koolshades (Oct 20, 2011)

when is a clone considered a plant in California? When it is put into it's own medium or when roots appear?


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 20, 2011)

A plant with roots or a clone with roots and they both are the same still count toward your limit


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## koolshades (Oct 20, 2011)

Thank you. I've read that as soon as you take a cutting and put it into a growth medium that it is considered a plant that counts toward your limit. It's a little confusing and makes a big difference if a legal problem arises.


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## TheLastWood (Oct 20, 2011)

What if you air layer? Root a branch while its still on the plant. is that 1 or 2? 


Just wondering.


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## davidgrimm (Oct 20, 2011)

Hi

As promised, the attached are my experiences with a cloning machine.

Steps:

1. Fill machine with water.
2. Add KLN according to the directions on the bottle.
3. PH it. I just use a bottle and the color chart. "Piss Yellow" ... good enough.
4. Load with your cuttings. (I overload with 90 cuttings in a machine for 60.)
5. Plug pump in.
6. Forget it.
7. Come back 1 week later.

88 plantable clones out of 89 cuttings.

Very "Set it and Forget it!"

Rinse and Repeat. Oh, I clean the machine well between runs. Don't know if you need to but I do.

David Grimm

PS I tried the rockwool cube system but couldn't get the same results with WAY more work.

PPS Picture 1 are the cuttings going into the machine.
Picture 2 are the cut side of the cuttings just going into the machine.
Picture 3 is 7 days later as the clones are getting planted in your medium.


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 20, 2011)

davidgrimm said:


> Hi
> 
> As promised, the attached are my experiences with a cloning machine.
> 
> ...


Nice cloning exp. Very nice rep to you


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## SupaM (Oct 21, 2011)

I have to 2nd that! Thanks for showing, I love set and forget...lol +rep
ATB!


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## billy2011 (Oct 21, 2011)

Hope everything is going okay with the grow with all the shit going down in Cali!!


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## collective gardener (Oct 23, 2011)

Wow. I step out for a few days and all hell breaks loose. I'd like to donate some 90 mesh dry sieve to this group so we can just chill...and I have plenty for Wolverine's dog and the neighbor dog. Shit, Wolverine, that's gnarly. I know how fucking scary that shit is. You did the only thing you can do if it's going to the death...jump in and DEAL WITH IT. Hope you heal up ok. I, too, have been bit breaking up a fight and got a gnarly infection. Lots of washing and Neosporum. If it even looks like it's getting the little red ring around it, go to doc and get scrip for Keflex.

Kitty, I have never used a purchased inoculant for teas. A big scoop of steaming hot compost in a nylon does wonders. I sent you a PM regarding the Indoor Gardening Show today. We hooked up with your Buddy Simon at Grotek. Dude has mad growing knowledge. Stand by for the Grotek nutrient challenge. To the group- Grotek is coming out with a line of liquid organic nutes which will be available to public inside a year. I believe Kitty already has some (you little she-devil). This guy Simon, who's the developer of the nutrient, knows his shit. We'll be trying some out in a couple months when he gets it a little better perfected. Keep an eye on this company. He is the first nute rep I've met that cares more about plant health and vigor than just trying to get you to buy a bunch of their shit. With people like him driving the project, great things are bound to happen.

I'll reply to the individual posts in a day or so. Good to be back in the garden. So far the DEA "crackdown" hasn't been much.


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 23, 2011)

Glad to hear from you cg and to see all is well in your area! Sounds like promissing news on the nutes


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## silasraven (Oct 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> From Cali....Doc's rec is for 99 plants and 4lbs


 well good luck with your grow, hope the shit doesnt hit the fan for you but do your self a favor and gaurd your location from public record, change the address or something you and all the pot shops in cali are gunna need to hit the under ground i hate to see the prices off that shit.


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## mellokitty (Oct 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Wow. I step out for a few days and all hell breaks loose. I'd like to donate some 90 mesh dry sieve to this group so we can just chill...and I have plenty for Wolverine's dog and the neighbor dog. Shit, Wolverine, that's gnarly. I know how fucking scary that shit is. You did the only thing you can do if it's going to the death...jump in and DEAL WITH IT. Hope you heal up ok. I, too, have been bit breaking up a fight and got a gnarly infection. Lots of washing and Neosporum. If it even looks like it's getting the little red ring around it, go to doc and get scrip for Keflex.
> 
> Kitty, I have never used a purchased inoculant for teas. A big scoop of steaming hot compost in a nylon does wonders. I sent you a PM regarding the Indoor Gardening Show today. We hooked up with your Buddy Simon at Grotek. Dude has mad growing knowledge. Stand by for the Grotek nutrient challenge. To the group- Grotek is coming out with a line of liquid organic nutes which will be available to public inside a year. I believe Kitty already has some (you little she-devil). This guy Simon, who's the developer of the nutrient, knows his shit. We'll be trying some out in a couple months when he gets it a little better perfected. Keep an eye on this company. He is the first nute rep I've met that cares more about plant health and vigor than just trying to get you to buy a bunch of their shit. With people like him driving the project, great things are bound to happen.
> 
> I'll reply to the individual posts in a day or so. Good to be back in the garden. So far the DEA "crackdown" hasn't been much.


i'm glad you got to meet simon, it's rather a privilege knowing him (and his brain); i figure share the wealth, right? since he was in your neck of the woods. i'm loving how that worked out:
"hey do you know anybody else that might be willing to beta-test this line?"
"well i can think of *one* person off the top of my head who's running nute experiments and has a keen interest in organics, but a) i've never met him and b) he's in cali...."
"i'm going to cali soon, hook us up!"
.... and the rest is recent history. 

he's an _intense_ fellow, isn't he cg? i always make sure i have a notebook when i meet up with him. 
(and yes, i DO already have my grubby paws on the nute line... i was trying to be all enigmatic aboot it in my journal.... way to let the cat out of the bag )


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## mellokitty (Oct 23, 2011)

oh, and thanks for the tidbit about the hot compost, this confirms my suspicions. i'm thinking some "hot" mushroom manure and EM liquid.


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## Jozikins (Oct 24, 2011)

Highly anticipating that grotek organics. I know I'll be one of the first people to rep it on RIU once it is commercially available!


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Wow. I step out for a few days and all hell breaks loose. I'd like to donate some 90 mesh dry sieve to this group so we can just chill...and I have plenty for Wolverine's dog and the neighbor dog. Shit, Wolverine, that's gnarly. I know how fucking scary that shit is. You did the only thing you can do if it's going to the death...jump in and DEAL WITH IT. Hope you heal up ok. I, too, have been bit breaking up a fight and got a gnarly infection. Lots of washing and Neosporum. If it even looks like it's getting the little red ring around it, go to doc and get scrip for Keflex.
> 
> Kitty, I have never used a purchased inoculant for teas. A big scoop of steaming hot compost in a nylon does wonders. I sent you a PM regarding the Indoor Gardening Show today. We hooked up with your Buddy Simon at Grotek. Dude has mad growing knowledge. Stand by for the Grotek nutrient challenge. To the group- Grotek is coming out with a line of liquid organic nutes which will be available to public inside a year. I believe Kitty already has some (you little she-devil). This guy Simon, who's the developer of the nutrient, knows his shit. We'll be trying some out in a couple months when he gets it a little better perfected. Keep an eye on this company. He is the first nute rep I've met that cares more about plant health and vigor than just trying to get you to buy a bunch of their shit. With people like him driving the project, great things are bound to happen.
> 
> I'll reply to the individual posts in a day or so. Good to be back in the garden. So far the DEA "crackdown" hasn't been much.


Aye aye cap'n! Good to have you back. The dogs and I are all healing up well so far, the doc gave me Augmentin to keep infection away. Excited to see some results with the new Grotek line, do keep us posted, both of you (stern glance at kitty).


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## Beansly (Oct 24, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> oh, and thanks for the tidbit about the hot compost, this confirms my suspicions. i'm thinking some "hot" mushroom manure and EM liquid.


 Hey kitty, if you haven't decided on what you're gonna put in the compost 'tea bag' look into using General Hydroponics Ancient Forest. I think it's composted forest topsoil, but it's jam packed with humic and fulvic acid and TONS beneficial bacteria and fungi. Heisenberg uses it as a base in his compost teas and he says it good stuff.



> AncientForest soil amendment Ancient Forest is a natural product consisting of 100% pure forest humus. It is derived from thousands of years of naturally ecomposed forest litter that contains a wide spectrum of organic compounds. An incredibly high diversity of microorganisms, with more than 35,000 species of bacteria and over 5000 species of fungi, make Ancient Forest an ideal amendment for gardening and potting soils. Ancient Forest also aids in the retention of water and nutrients; creating stable, long lasting soil for your garden. The immense biological activity also makes Ancient Forest the ideal inoculum for actively aerated compost teas.


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## C.Indica (Oct 24, 2011)

Haha had nothing to say until I read the word "augmentin" Now that just sounds funny.
Augmentin' yer wounds boy!


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 24, 2011)

Beansly said:


> Hey kitty, if you haven't decided on what you're gonna put in the compost 'tea bag' look into using General Hydroponics Ancient Forest. I think it's composted forest topsoil, but it's jam packed with humic and fulvic acid and TONS beneficial bacteria and fungi. Heisenberg uses it as a base in his compost teas and he says it good stuff.


Indeed, that's what I use for my base when making tea. Tis good shite, I also amend my soil with it about 5%.


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## collective gardener (Oct 24, 2011)

Fucking Simon guilted me into thinking more seriously about lowering my eco footprint. Watch out when he starts talking about the amazing results of Cuban farmers using old school dirt farming techniques. Their per acre yields are crushing Big Agro Chem Grown Mid West yields. This from a country virtually without access to any commercial fertilizer. Amazing shit.

But...and a BIG BUT...I be digging my current results with rockwool and will be rocking that for another year or so. We'll get off the AN and on something else that works as good. 

I've had time to process a little of what I learned from Simon, the "Organic Mechanic". Tip of the day: Do not use any carbs. If there is a microherd in your medium, the sugar will supercharge them, and they will rob your roots of oxygen, possibly paving the way for anerobic growth.

I'm off to the grow. We harvest the first 3 Tahoe x Chemdog today. Hell ya. I can't wait to drop some on our members. I vend to a delivery service that's watering at the mouth for some. Today is 8 weeks. It was supposed to be a 7 weeker...but we scoped it, and at 7 weeks triches were still very clear. Yesterday, we had about 50% milky, but no amber. This is my new harvest point...no more than 50% milky.


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## Jozikins (Oct 24, 2011)

I did some outdoor tomatoes this year, and the ones in my own custom engineered soil did very well with early fruit baring, but it was the dirt, the ground soil that I amended, bore fruit later on, but many many more sets of flowers, and if the freeze didn't kill them off, I'm sure bigger yields. Natural ground soil gave me much better over all health and the leaf sets were fucking HUGE!! Same variety, different seeds, but there was no contest. The dirt was much slower to start as well, but once it did, it crushed anything I could have made myself. 

I am convinced that outdoor in amended dirt is the way to grow anything, assuming you have already been amending outdoor gardens and have good dirt to start with. Although I just moved out, my grow partners still live in the mountain home, and it had amazing soil, alkaline though, easy to correct. But indoor hydroponics and potting mix is what I'm basically stuck with considering how close neighbors are, the size of the yard up in the mountains, and especially how close to neighbors now that I am temporarily in an apartment, closer to your area. But I will be moving into a house soon, so we'll see how private my backyard is. 

Anyways, I wish I could have tasted those tom's growing in dirt. 

Anyways, please elaborate a little more on carbs and your medium. We are talking with all mediums here, correct? And by carbs, you do mean any products containing any form of sugar, including a product like Sweet Raw, which, is understood to be just magnesium sulfate, but I have _accidentally_ ingested water with Sweet Raw in it (I thought it was my water jug, I _never_ use jugs for nutrients, one exception) and it is very sweet. That is how I immediately knew that I had drank the ph'd Sweet Raw water. The next day you can smell the magnesium sulfate in your pee, I got an unexpected nose full of that the next morning, was weird, Botanicare left me back a voicemail saying I would be fine, a little late though, lol. Anyways, products like Sweet Raw and Sugar Daddy or recommended by the fertilizer company, should these be excluded or replaced with a different supplement?

Also, I use lots of carbs in my tea, I use blackstrap molasses, should I exclude the molasses from my tea mix? I know Dr. Benton Jones and Dr. Elaine Ingham both recommend molasses in tea, but I've also heard from several other highly reputable names that using a good carbon source with a great natural humic resource is just as good, if not better. I know neither you or your friend at Grotek are the authority on these sciences, but I highly value these opinions, especially with basically real-time updates on your progress and experiences.

Would also like to hear some input from Wolverine on this.

EDIT:
Infact, on the note of using a natural humic acid, Dr. Benton Jones recently stated in his article in a recent edition of _Maximum Yield,_ that there is no supplement that contest with real humic acid taken from the earth.


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## mellokitty (Oct 24, 2011)

i'm just so happy someone knows what i deal with in my regular botanical grind now .... simon'll casually mention something and i'll end up going home and researching it for the rest of the day. 

some examples: "bacterial action tends to raise pH, fungal action tends to lower it"
"the action of N-setting bacteria are actually _suppressed_ by the presence of non-amino-form N"
"high levels of phosphorus inhibit mycorrhizal fungi" 
..... and of course, by the time i've had a second to be like "wtf, really?" he's light-years ahead of me discussing yet another botanical concept that's way beyond me. 

(i wish i could post the back-and-forth email i had with him about biochar on here.... i felt like i should have paid tuition afterwards.)


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## Jozikins (Oct 24, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> some examples: "bacterial action tends to raise pH, fungal action tends to lower it"
> "the action of N-setting bacteria are actually _suppressed_ by the presence of non-amino-form N"


Those two were very intriguing to me. Good to know. The first example actually explained a lot to me, and I understand sooooo much more about my organic garden now. Seriously, that was half my questions I had for someone that I never real thought of answered, about both my teas and sometimes my run off.


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Fucking Simon guilted me into thinking more seriously about lowering my eco footprint. Watch out when he starts talking about the amazing results of Cuban farmers using old school dirt farming techniques. Their per acre yields are crushing Big Agro Chem Grown Mid West yields. This from a country virtually without access to any commercial fertilizer. Amazing shit.
> 
> But...and a BIG BUT...I be digging my current results with rockwool and will be rocking that for another year or so. We'll get off the AN and on something else that works as good.
> 
> ...


Hmm... the carb thing is interesting. I can see the logic behind it, but I'd imagine that the oxygen levels could be maintained by using Smart Pots or other air pruning containers. Admittedly, I'm guessing here, but it seems to be logical. And I'm with you on the milky trich's, I never (well, almost never) let mine go amber. My Super Lemon Haze does it on its own, regardless of harvest time, but other than that it's clear to milky.


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 24, 2011)

Jozikins said:


> I did some outdoor tomatoes this year, and the ones in my own custom engineered soil did very well with early fruit baring, but it was the dirt, the ground soil that I amended, bore fruit later on, but many many more sets of flowers, and if the freeze didn't kill them off, I'm sure bigger yields. Natural ground soil gave me much better over all health and the leaf sets were fucking HUGE!! Same variety, different seeds, but there was no contest. The dirt was much slower to start as well, but once it did, it crushed anything I could have made myself.
> 
> I am convinced that outdoor in amended dirt is the way to grow anything, assuming you have already been amending outdoor gardens and have good dirt to start with. Although I just moved out, my grow partners still live in the mountain home, and it had amazing soil, alkaline though, easy to correct. But indoor hydroponics and potting mix is what I'm basically stuck with considering how close neighbors are, the size of the yard up in the mountains, and especially how close to neighbors now that I am temporarily in an apartment, closer to your area. But I will be moving into a house soon, so we'll see how private my backyard is.
> 
> ...


Well I'm curious to hear more as well. I can understand how the microbes would use up all available oxygen within their little sphere of life, but if you're using containers such as Smart Pots I would think that would allow for replenishment. But then again, I've never seen too much need for carb supplements to feed microbes. As long as there is an organic supply of nutrients present with sufficient moisture, they will flourish. 

As for using carbs in your tea, I see that as a different issue altogether. You need carbs in the tea to get the microbe population up in the first place. I can't really speak intelligently on this, my knowledge of teas and the intricacies of the soil food web is still in development. I can produce the results, but I can't say that I clearly understand all of the principles, yet.


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## Jozikins (Oct 24, 2011)

For the first time ever I actually let my plants go 20-30% milky, maybe even way past what I would normally ever consider reasonable at 40% on one plant these last 2 rounds, and although the extra time it takes for it to happen is not justifiable economically, it really enhances the pain and nausea specific medicinal effects of my Sativas. And that combined with the all organic diet has really really turned the smell into something very very interesting. But my plants have always been devastatingly dank and have great medicinal value. Even when I never let a single one go amber, and had nearly even milky and clear trichs. I think milky and clear trichs make much better hash too, especially clear trichs, it can be heavily narcotic if you get them at the perfect ripeness.

But I find it hard to believe that any quality porous medium could be depleted of oxygen to dangerous levels, or even less than pleasant levels for roots. I think any type of aeration pot would help a lot, like smart pots as you said Wolverine, but to me, it just doesn't seem likely. But I guess I'll have to test it myself to get the answers.

But I agree, I think carbs in tea is a-okay, both my plants and several other growers that I share it with had huge improvements in their plants. But I would like to get a big hunk of earth and extract the humic acid out of it, throw that it in with some charcoal and earthworm castings, and see how that does all on it's own, before adding all my favorite ingredients.


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## mellokitty (Oct 24, 2011)

yeah, i'll have to pick his brain some more but i'm pretty sure he means "in your liquid feed". he's the brains behind "black pearl" (<--one of my favourite soil amendments) and one of the BFD's about black pearl is chitosan (a polysaccharide derived from acetylized crustacean shell) .... but then there's supposed to be some sort of carbon/oxygen providing sumfin-sumfin in biochar (the other BFD about black pearl) and the interaction of the 2 is supposed to both a) feed the microherd and b) provide a "backbone" supply of trace minerals. but again, it's an amendment and not part of their liquid nute regime. 

edit: ok never mind, the "not in your liquid feed" is totally off; i just remembered there's a carb component that came with the organics that's for use in mid-cycle. i think he's travelling today but i will ask for some more clarification on that. 

i agree with wolvie on the adding carbs to teas; i've been having to examine that as part of my wanting to use EM in my tea recipe... it needs a carb to live on. i guess a common method of EM composting is to impregnate a solid carb (like wheat or oat husks) and add a bunch of that to the compost pile. so i'm thinking "impregnate a bunch of black pearl with EM" and add it to my teabag. the idea being that those carbs feed your tea while it brews. 

but then, we all know i'm a tea-n00b. i've made vermi-T before but there's almost zero thought involved in that.


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## mellokitty (Oct 24, 2011)

here an article by S in max yield about the cuban farmers:

http://www.maximumyield.com/article_sh_db.php?articleID=621&yearVar=2010&issueVar=October


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## Jozikins (Oct 24, 2011)

Interesting article kitty, you always have at least one for us. I personally am pretty convinced that natural organics is the way to go, but I cannot justify a complete over haul until I have a fundamental understanding of it, I would just lose too much money. I would actually be better off financially returning to school at a junior college and taking classes. Might as well finish getting my AA, lol. But after attempting to make a full switch I learned a lot, and one of the lessons is organic gardening in pots is not only possible, but effective, but nothing can compare to what you can do with the earth that is around you, and the products you can make in your own yard, if not at least obtain locally. I've only seen a small example of this personally, but I think this is the way to go. I can't wait to start raised beds both indoors and out.


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## collective gardener (Oct 24, 2011)

I'm with the group fully on carbs in tea being a good thing. I am only passing on info from someone with way too much horti brains. He was referring to adding carbs to the nute solution and then feeding. With a big enough herd in the container, I can see O2 being used up quite fast by an explosive reproduction. Even the best soils and containers barely provide enough O2. I know this from when I grew aeroponic in a CO2 enriched climate controlled greenhouse. I have never seen growth anywhere near as incredible as that. We know that a fine tuned aero system gets its power from a hyper-oxygenated root zone. In fact, I found that the more I dried the root zone, the more explosive the growth...to a point. Anyways, I would side with Big S on this one and do everything I could to maintain a healthy level of O2 in the soil. Of course, in the end, all that matters is results. If someone noticed an improvement by adding carbs, just who in the fuck am I to poo poo that.

Stand by for pics in 10.

And, news on my monkey problem.


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## Joedank (Oct 24, 2011)

thats funny i just heard about reducing your simple carbs with soy or braggs liquid aminos in flower to promote fungal growth...
i little to back this up and bump collective to a fresh page i think
Amino Acid Content of Leaves in Mycorrhizal and Non-mycorrhizal Citrus Rootstocks
Nitrogen status was examined in leaves of sour orange and rough lemon citrus rootstocks grown in a low phosphorus sand inoculated with Glomus etunicatus, in sand amended with superphosphate at a rate of 2240 kg ha&#8722;1, and in a sand control left untreated. Sour orange was 3.1- and 3.5-fold taller and rough lemon was 1.8- and 2.0-fold taller than the controls in the inoculated and phosphorus treatments, respectively. In the controls, leaf N was up to 2.5-fold higher than in the other treatments. Both total and free amino acids accumulated in leaves of both rootstocks to higher levels in the control than in the other treatments. Most total amino acids in the control were lower than in the treatments, with the exceptions of arginine (up to 12-fold increase), proline (up to 1.8-fold increase), lysine, and free ammonia. Twenty-two free amino acids, urea, and ammonia were detected. Both rootstocks grown in control sand had significant increases in citrulline, ornithine, lysine, histidine, arginine and ammonia. Levels of total and most free amino acids in the inoculated and phosphorus treatments were similar to one another. It is suggested that mineral deficiency caused by the absence of G. etunicatus causes a reorganization of N-metabolism with a shift to a greater synthesis of ornithine cycle intermediates.

now i dont know the ramifacations of this for ganja but its cool to think that the plant reacts more than i ever though to the introduction of one new species of sub culture so more work is needed in testing innoculated well fed soil vs not in terpine and amino peptide uptake links...


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## collective gardener (Oct 24, 2011)

Joedank said:


> thats funny i just heard about reducing your simple carbs with soy or braggs liquid aminos in flower to promote fungal growth...
> i little to back this up and bump collective to a fresh page i think
> Amino Acid Content of Leaves in Mycorrhizal and Non-mycorrhizal Citrus Rootstocks
> Nitrogen status was examined in leaves of sour orange and rough lemon citrus rootstocks grown in a low phosphorus sand inoculated with Glomus etunicatus, in sand amended with superphosphate at a rate of 2240 kg ha&#8722;1, and in a sand control left untreated. Sour orange was 3.1- and 3.5-fold taller and rough lemon was 1.8- and 2.0-fold taller than the controls in the inoculated and phosphorus treatments, respectively. In the controls, leaf N was up to 2.5-fold higher than in the other treatments. Both total and free amino acids accumulated in leaves of both rootstocks to higher levels in the control than in the other treatments. Most total amino acids in the control were lower than in the treatments, with the exceptions of arginine (up to 12-fold increase), proline (up to 1.8-fold increase), lysine, and free ammonia. Twenty-two free amino acids, urea, and ammonia were detected. Both rootstocks grown in control sand had significant increases in citrulline, ornithine, lysine, histidine, arginine and ammonia. Levels of total and most free amino acids in the inoculated and phosphorus treatments were similar to one another. It is suggested that mineral deficiency caused by the absence of G. etunicatus causes a reorganization of N-metabolism with a shift to a greater synthesis of ornithine cycle intermediates.
> ...


 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but, based on this, if I keep on doing what I'm doing my current crop will mutate into a group of zombies?


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## collective gardener (Oct 24, 2011)

Well...looks like the RUI uploader aint working. I have today's pics of the fullest bloom room this op had ever had. It's thick...Amazon thick. So thick, that I got monkeys. Fuckers came in right through the ducting. Commercial J had them last year. He has a hook up on a guy that comes out with a blow gun and darts em. They go to sleep and are humanely re-located to area in B.C. with lots of big grow ops.


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## Joedank (Oct 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Well...looks like the RUI uploader aint working. I have today's pics of the fullest bloom room this op had ever had. It's thick...Amazon thick. So thick, that I got monkeys. Fuckers came in right through the ducting. Commercial J had them last year. He has a hook up on a guy that comes out with a blow gun and darts em. They go to sleep and are humanely re-located to area in B.C. with lots of big grow ops.


 Dood that's funny..... 
That info I posted is only for soil with shitty nute retention and zero chelation coefficient ... Not for badasses who use soilless and full available nutes that cover the broad spectrum 
Damn I want my bubba and og porn !! 
Oh and I wish I could claim monkeys at my spotz. + ^^^^rep for needing the monkey handler


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## jyermum (Oct 25, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but, based on this, if I keep on doing what I'm doing my current crop will mutate into a group of zombies?


Zombie plants are no joke, especially around all hallows eve!! Heres one of the standing dead now.


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 25, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I'm with the group fully on carbs in tea being a good thing. I am only passing on info from someone with way too much horti brains. He was referring to adding carbs to the nute solution and then feeding. With a big enough herd in the container, I can see O2 being used up quite fast by an explosive reproduction. Even the best soils and containers barely provide enough O2. I know this from when I grew aeroponic in a CO2 enriched climate controlled greenhouse. I have never seen growth anywhere near as incredible as that. We know that a fine tuned aero system gets its power from a hyper-oxygenated root zone. In fact, I found that the more I dried the root zone, the more explosive the growth...to a point. Anyways, I would side with Big S on this one and do everything I could to maintain a healthy level of O2 in the soil. Of course, in the end, all that matters is results. If someone noticed an improvement by adding carbs, just who in the fuck am I to poo poo that.
> 
> Stand by for pics in 10.
> 
> And, news on my monkey problem.


What's wrong with your monkey?


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## Beansly (Oct 25, 2011)

He guys' maybe you could help me out. Rather than link you to my new thread, Ill just ask you here

*I was wondering if one of you fine folks could point me toward a strain the consistently finishes within 60 days for my short flowering needs. The strain should either be connoisseur quality (high potency-small yields) or if it's not the strongest bud in the world, it should have at least an average yield.
I was thinking some cindy99 from either Dutch Grown Seeds, Mosca or Joey Weed, but any potent, short-flowering strain would be fine. 
I'm not looking for a strain that has phenos that finish short. I'd like a strain that has a reputation for short flowering and consistently finishes fast. Thanks. *


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## collective gardener (Oct 25, 2011)

Pics 6 and 9 (orange ones) were taken yesterday. I wanted to show the type of canopy that can lead to a monkey problem. These are escaped lab monkeys gone feral...the worst for a grow room. They're used to indoor environments, and are not afraid of people. So far the damage has been limitted to broken branches and unplugging fans. The light timers were monkey proofed years ago, so that's not an issue. 

Most of the mature bud pics are from the last harvest...the AN Nute harvest. The size of the buds were amazing. They were dense as fuck, too. We ended up with less than an ounce of non-AAA grade buds. That was mainly from accurate pruning. The "twin towers" pic is one plant that shot 2 identical main branches. 

Enjoy, folks.


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## collective gardener (Oct 25, 2011)

Monkey guy finally called back. $1,200 PER MONKEY!!! I have at least 3. Had to tell him to do it. What can I do. One of them keeps kinking the hose when I'm watering. Get ready, Kitty. You have 3 highly adaptable monkeys coming your way. Paybacks for some of that nasty Beastie Bud you guys sent down a few years back! LMAO.


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## mellokitty (Oct 25, 2011)

wtf??? you weren't kidding about "somewhere in bc" ? (although i have a pretty good idea what area they're shootin for....)
why not just SELL them to a large op as guard monkeys? i'm sure SOMEONE'll buy them.... remember, we use bears to guard our ops around here... 

edit: YOU GOT THE SOFT COOLER???? i've been gunning for one of those for like a year now.....


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## jyermum (Oct 25, 2011)

Must be snowing indoors at your place because everything is frosty as hell. I cant wait for the grotec update.


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## TogTokes (Oct 25, 2011)

It is hard for me to believe someone needs 99 plants for personal use =)


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 25, 2011)

TogTokes said:


> It is hard for me to believe someone needs 99 plants for personal use =)


You shut your dirty mouth.


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## Jozikins (Oct 25, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I'm with the group fully on carbs in tea being a good thing. I am only passing on info from someone with way too much horti brains. He was referring to adding carbs to the nute solution and then feeding. With a big enough herd in the container, I can see O2 being used up quite fast by an explosive reproduction. Even the best soils and containers barely provide enough O2. I know this from when I grew aeroponic in a CO2 enriched climate controlled greenhouse. I have never seen growth anywhere near as incredible as that. We know that a fine tuned aero system gets its power from a hyper-oxygenated root zone. In fact, I found that the more I dried the root zone, the more explosive the growth...to a point. Anyways, I would side with Big S on this one and do everything I could to maintain a healthy level of O2 in the soil. Of course, in the end, all that matters is results. If someone noticed an improvement by adding carbs, just who in the fuck am I to poo poo that.
> 
> Stand by for pics in 10.
> 
> And, news on my monkey problem.


 I reckon you are right about that part, didn't even think about the incredible amount of O2 that is gobbled up in aeroponics. I've seen vast improvements from adding a carbohydrate, but this is all situational, I know a few times I was deficient in a few things that carb had to offer. But I do firmly believe that I can feed additonal carbs to keep my roots healthy without suffocating them, especially if I am using a lot of phosphorus that may be killing off my herd consistently. Anyways, this whole conversation spurred a million new conversations for me, my head isn't spinning trying to get settled into my new place, I am going to look as deep into it as possible and share the info I find. Your garden update looks GREAT by the way, those are by far your biggest fattest buds with the most frost on them so far. I saw a deficiency on them though, I think you mentioned it when it happened, what exactly was it again?


Joedank said:


> thats funny i just heard about reducing your simple carbs with soy or braggs liquid aminos in flower to promote fungal growth...
> i little to back this up and bump collective to a fresh page i think
> Amino Acid Content of Leaves in Mycorrhizal and Non-mycorrhizal Citrus Rootstocks
> Nitrogen status was examined in leaves of sour orange and rough lemon citrus rootstocks grown in a low phosphorus sand inoculated with Glomus etunicatus, in sand amended with superphosphate at a rate of 2240 kg ha&#8722;1, and in a sand control left untreated. Sour orange was 3.1- and 3.5-fold taller and rough lemon was 1.8- and 2.0-fold taller than the controls in the inoculated and phosphorus treatments, respectively. In the controls, leaf N was up to 2.5-fold higher than in the other treatments. Both total and free amino acids accumulated in leaves of both rootstocks to higher levels in the control than in the other treatments. Most total amino acids in the control were lower than in the treatments, with the exceptions of arginine (up to 12-fold increase), proline (up to 1.8-fold increase), lysine, and free ammonia. Twenty-two free amino acids, urea, and ammonia were detected. Both rootstocks grown in control sand had significant increases in citrulline, ornithine, lysine, histidine, arginine and ammonia. Levels of total and most free amino acids in the inoculated and phosphorus treatments were similar to one another. It is suggested that mineral deficiency caused by the absence of G. etunicatus causes a reorganization of N-metabolism with a shift to a greater synthesis of ornithine cycle intermediates.
> ...


What I really want to know, if this can translate over to cannabis cultivation, is how does it effect amino forms of N in your flowers? It's too bad these things always dead end right here, and you can never find it being tested else where.... At least I am by far to lazy too look it up right now. Dear lord I feel lazy, I slept in until noon today, and now I just want to rot all day. lol.


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## collective gardener (Oct 25, 2011)

TogTokes said:


> It is hard for me to believe someone needs 99 plants for personal use =)


Thank you for that tid bit, Officer. I'm sure there are other threads who would appreciate your opinions, as well. Here's an idea: Go to an LED thread and say "Led's have no place in any type of indoor garden." This should get you the reaction that you're so obviously looking for. You're not going to get it here. But, what you will get is me forwarding your little comment to about a hundred different people in here, many of whom will appreciate it FAR less than I. One more post here, and that's exactly what I will do.


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## nattybongo (Oct 25, 2011)

Nice thread collective gardener. =)


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## dapio (Oct 25, 2011)

good stuff my man keep it up CG!


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## C.Indica (Oct 25, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Thank you for that tid bit, Officer. I'm sure there are other threads who would appreciate your opinions, as well. Here's an idea: Go to an LED thread and say "Led's have no place in any type of indoor garden." This should get you the reaction that you're so obviously looking for. You're not going to get it here. But, what you will get is me forwarding your little comment to about a hundred different people in here, many of whom will appreciate it FAR less than I. One more post here, and that's exactly what I will do.


Bahahahahahaha.

By the way I see your harvest shots, don't bother sending a shot for that PM.
But I did get a very good idea on their final shape.

Oh and kitty, thanks for the link to that Cuban article, had to bookmark it.


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## collective gardener (Oct 26, 2011)

Hey, thanks for all the super positive comments. Shit. 

One time Kitty posted that she wished she could explain what it's like to be a grower in BC. I'm starting to feel similar stirrings. The secrecy of this lifestyle tends to bottle up emotions that would otherwise be released on a regular basis. Guys go to the pub and bitch about work all the time. Career victories are celebrated. Job stresses are talked about and worked through with friends, family, and other people at work. Most people talk about their careers all the time...and with a broad range of people. Not so much in this line. 

I started growing with my cousin as a partner in 1990. As we were discussing how not to get caught, he told me "if you need to talk to somebody, call me...only me". He already knew the pressures of an underground lifestyle. In fact, he had just gotten released from prison when we started doing this. He knew all to well that the vast majority of busted guys were the result of rats. I had dabbled in brokering some large pot buys, but nothing full time. I had a real job, made good $$$, had a great house, had a cool chick...life was good. What I didn't know was that entering into this secret world would come with a cost. It seems simple...just don't tell anybody. It is simple. But it's not easy. I've never been the same. Before grow op my life was totally transparent. I never had any secrets or anything to be ashamed of. Ever since then an ever increasing portion of my life has been a secret...known only to the Chosen Few. 

This thread has been a great place for me to vent a little. And, of course, laws have changed and the need for absolute secrecy has given way to having lawyers and plants counts. But secrecy is still very important...if not for the cops, for the thieves. Most of you have probably noticed that there are several things I never mention on this thread. Even here I have to "sensor" what I say. A smart person could go through the thread and piece together my approx yield is Lbs/month, but I never say it. And I would never talk about how much money I make. That's rude in any line. Location, of course doesn't come up. Then there's the secrets of other people. I have alot of friends with big ass grow ops. They have placed their very lives and freedom in my hands. But, when you see some of these ops you just HAVE to share it with someone. Before this thread I wouldn't say a word. It's been nice to be able to share some of their stories here without violating their trust in me. 

When Kitty said she wanted people to know what it was like, she was frustrated because she knew that no matter how much or how good she wrote, very few people would actually be able to _feel_ what she has felt. The growing experience is a complex and emotional issue. It's one thing to have a 4k bedroom grow op. It's another to have made a living on growing for the vast majority of your adult life. It becomes a big part of who you are. It can become who you are. I've lived in several states, lived with several women, had several houses, and have had several "real" jobs. The one constant has been growing. Everytime I would break up with a girlfriend I would start a massive grow op. Out with the girl, in with the plants. 

I could write for a dozen pages explaining just one grow op, and all the feelings that went with it. It's been a lifetime of wonderful experiences. Growing can be so fufilling, and yet draining all at the same time. It evokes many more emotions than other careers. There's so much at stake all the time. I'm going to try and convey some of those feelings here once in a while. I know that I love hearing Kitty's experiences as a BC grower. I hope that someone may get a kick out of some of my experiences as a California commercial grower.


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## Beansly (Oct 26, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Hey, thanks for all the super positive comments. Shit.
> 
> One time Kitty posted that she wished she could explain what it's like to be a grower in BC. I'm starting to feel similar stirrings. The secrecy of this lifestyle tends to bottle up emotions that would otherwise be released on a regular basis. Guys go to the pub and bitch about work all the time. Career victories are celebrated. Job stresses are talked about and worked through with friends, family, and other people at work. Most people talk about their careers all the time...and with a broad range of people. Not so much in this line.
> 
> ...


I wish I could've heard this when I was just starting out not 8 months ago. Not that I would change my decision to grow, but I might have been more prepared for the road ahead of me. Idk about some of the other growers here, but I like how, I think it was c.indica put it; "I'm all in". I've known for a decade that I wanted to spend my life growing and have been writing journals and journals full of notes and plans since I smoked high-grade (what we here generically call 'chronic') for the first time in 1998. I was only 14 then, but I knew what I wanted to do. 
Think you for your wisdom CG.


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## billy2011 (Oct 26, 2011)

C.G. you should consider writing a book in the future. Im sure it would be a fascinating read


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## mellokitty (Oct 26, 2011)

you're making me all teary and shit, cg....


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 26, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> you're making me all teary and shit, cg....


There's no crying in growing! Put your big girl panties on kitty...


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## Bird Gymnastics (Oct 26, 2011)

Amazing story bro. It's growers like you that make little guys like me want to keep expanding. Your mission and goals for the growing world are ideal and I can only hope to be as good as a grower as you some day. Keep the posts coming and the stories flowing! Also stay safe out there. Things have been getting murky in AZ so I can only imagine how Cali has been. Happy growing my friend


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## legallyflying (Oct 26, 2011)

hey gang, posting to auto sub. Really interested in the inductive lamps I am in the market for a new veg lamp for my early-mid veg tent. Its 6' x 5' and I have a mover available as well. Just hard to get that width adequately lit. Anywho, kudos to everyone for a great thread with no hater flamer dick head trolls ruining it.


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## SupaM (Oct 26, 2011)

I def appreciate you sharing with us CG! All the Best to You!!


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 26, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> hey gang, posting to auto sub. Really interested in the inductive lamps I am in the market for a new veg lamp for my early-mid veg tent. Its 6' x 5' and I have a mover available as well. Just hard to get that width adequately lit. Anywho, kudos to everyone for a great thread with no hater flamer dick head trolls ruining it.


Yeah, man this here thread is a good'n. I don't think CG ever got to try out the induction lamps IIRC. 
Sorry about what's going on over on your current thread. UB knew exactly what I was getting at with questioning his medium, which is why he never answered. Now the whole troop from his other site is trolling it...


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## dapio (Oct 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Hey, thanks for all the super positive comments. Shit.
> 
> One time Kitty posted that she wished she could explain what it's like to be a grower in BC. I'm starting to feel similar stirrings. The secrecy of this lifestyle tends to bottle up emotions that would otherwise be released on a regular basis. Guys go to the pub and bitch about work all the time. Career victories are celebrated. Job stresses are talked about and worked through with friends, family, and other people at work. Most people talk about their careers all the time...and with a broad range of people. Not so much in this line.
> 
> ...


 This is real stuff bro its nice to hear the input of someone like yourself I am sure your lifestyle was a wild one always hearing other people bitch about a world they believe is real and the stress it causes them but it takes a lot to live in secrecy I am sure the number 1 rule is don't get caught and second don't trust anyone its all or nothing in this field. Forgive me to use the word organized crime but if you have ever looked in to that era you would know all of these people failed because their work benefited no one but themselves. MMJ is a lone survivor in itself it takes hard work and discipline to do what you and others have accomplished in terms of mass production and turning it into a profitable business the bill of rights holds strong to your lifestyle it is quite a weapon as well as having the heart to go through life in secrecy even if it means being alone. Anyways a girl, a house, a car sounds like the American dream to me bro congratulations to you man I wish you many years of happiness keep freedom alive!


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## C.Indica (Oct 27, 2011)

CG, I feel for you.
I am in the midst of that very 'transparent' lifestyle, and I try to be as blunt and honest as I can.
But the further I dive into this hobby, the more of me becomes a ghost except to the close ones.

Honestly I was going downhil until I started my first plant. Didn't know what I wanted to do with myself..
After a while people gave me houseplants, and I started my first garden last spring.

Now I full on want to get into Agriculture, and I've got this renewed love of life.
Started playing my Cello again, and ohhh man am I glad I did.


Thanks for the amazing experiences you're sharing with us CG.


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## collective gardener (Oct 27, 2011)

Legally Flying, never tried the Induction light . The one I was sent was like 50 watts. As always, get the biggest one you can...I think right now that's the 400 watt. Let us know how it goes.

Wolverine, UB still? Again? My god. 

Dapio, Interesting point about organized crime. As far as trust, it's quite the opposite for me. When I do trust someone, I trust them fully. Most pot deals are still based on trust. I brokered a deal in the mid 90's for 300Lbs of NL#5. It was over a million bucks. I was introduced to the grower's rep as a trustworthy guy, and he handed me the 300 Lbs. I took it to the buyer in So Cal, who I barely knew, but was spoken for by a close friend. He gave me the cash. I paid the grower. Anyone couldve fucked up the deal, but no one did. Trust.


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Legally Flying, never tried the Induction light . The one I was sent was like 50 watts. As always, get the biggest one you can...I think right now that's the 400 watt. Let us know how it goes.
> 
> Wolverine, UB still? Again? My god.
> 
> Dapio, Interesting point about organized crime. As far as trust, it's quite the opposite for me. When I do trust someone, I trust them fully. Most pot deals are still based on trust. I brokered a deal in the mid 90's for 300Lbs of NL#5. It was over a million bucks. I was introduced to the grower's rep as a trustworthy guy, and he handed me the 300 Lbs. I took it to the buyer in So Cal, who I barely knew, but was spoken for by a close friend. He gave me the cash. I paid the grower. Anyone couldve fucked up the deal, but no one did. Trust.


Yeah, he's been in full-on troll mode all week.


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## collective gardener (Oct 27, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Yeah, he's been in full-on troll mode all week.


My need to watch train wrecks has overcome my good sense. Shoot me the link(s).

I actually tried to like him for a while, thinking he was a tallented grower, just with some attitude. But, when he actually claimed to have invented a simple topping technique, I gave up. Do u remember that shit? He was serious.


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## mellokitty (Oct 27, 2011)

here, you might need this.....


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## dapio (Oct 27, 2011)

300 pounds a million dollars cash? You are a straight boss break out the louie vuitton duffle bags! I could die happy ever getting the chance to work with someone like yourself


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> My need to watch train wrecks has overcome my good sense. Shoot me the link(s).
> 
> I actually tried to like him for a while, thinking he was a tallented grower, just with some attitude. But, when he actually claimed to have invented a simple topping technique, I gave up. Do u remember that shit? He was serious.


Ask and ye shall receive. I'm really torn on UB, the last time he got banned I was a little pissed because he does possess a lot of great knowledge, he just has a hard time interacting with the general population I guess. I've generally been respectful with him since I do respect his opinion, but I disagree with him a lot. The thing that gets me the most is the group of people who follow him around bashing anyone who dares challenge him. Here are a couple of the threads: The last one I think is a good thread, not trolling (obvs since it's his thread).

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/474924-could-kelp-extracts-waste-money.html

https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/416210-bushmaster-works-period-gravity-works.html

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/479798-snake-oil-horticultural-myths-horticultural.html


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## slk (Oct 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Hey, thanks for all the super positive comments. Shit.
> 
> One time Kitty posted that she wished she could explain what it's like to be a grower in BC. I'm starting to feel similar stirrings. The secrecy of this lifestyle tends to bottle up emotions that would otherwise be released on a regular basis. Guys go to the pub and bitch about work all the time. Career victories are celebrated. Job stresses are talked about and worked through with friends, family, and other people at work. Most people talk about their careers all the time...and with a broad range of people. Not so much in this line.
> 
> ...


 


CG that is so well said I thought you were talking about me.

I have been following this thread the beginning and I follow you word as gospel I absorb it like a spong. I am a 6000k system. As you post diferant processes of any stage I take that inf downstairs and apply it.
Thank you for sharing you knowlage with us + rep's dude.


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## kckid816 (Oct 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Hey, thanks for all the super positive comments. Shit.
> 
> One time Kitty posted that she wished she could explain what it's like to be a grower in BC. I'm starting to feel similar stirrings. The secrecy of this lifestyle tends to bottle up emotions that would otherwise be released on a regular basis. Guys go to the pub and bitch about work all the time. Career victories are celebrated. Job stresses are talked about and worked through with friends, family, and other people at work. Most people talk about their careers all the time...and with a broad range of people. Not so much in this line.
> 
> ...


I feel you on this. I'm not commercial by any stretch of the means but I've been around and party to shit that simply can't be discussed. That shit eats at you over the years. Great post.


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## legallyflying (Oct 27, 2011)

Well I am in the process of doing the mandatory induction light research. Its only $600 for a 400 watt that they say will cover 5x5 or 6x6. I'll let you know what I come up with. I am a little behind in terms of cash flow for my crops as an out of town power failure in week 4-5 pretty much fucked me. I have never cursed at a GFCI outlet so hard in my life  

I'll let you know what I find out and post it here. To be quite honest, I am a little tired of starting threads in the "general population" of this forum.


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## C.Indica (Oct 27, 2011)

Hahaha when UB sees this page he's going to throw a royal fit.


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 27, 2011)

Owell dudes Tweeks out on everybody that doesnt comform to his thoughts on growing let him throw a fit


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## mellokitty (Oct 29, 2011)

not much danger of that -- cg's hardly a newbie for him to boss around.


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## collective gardener (Oct 29, 2011)

UB and I have gone toe to toe several times. Moderator had to step in and hose us down. I took a breath, and came back to UB for a truce. Well, he doesn't really play that. So, I went back at his throat and damn near got booted from the whole site. That's when I stopped posting for a few months. 

Legally, I wouldn't try to light any bigger than around 2x3 to 3x4 with a 400 watt induction light. They light a rectangle best, but will not exceed what a 1000hps can do.

Dapio, I guess my point was, there are no Louie Vuitton bags in big weed deals. I've met a few people who tried to make it that way...like they were some kind of "weed gangster". These were low level want to be's who will most likely end up in prison. I won't even talk to people like that now. I like the people who have the money but never show it. Commercial J could drive whatever car he wanted to. He drives a 10 year old Honda Accord 4 door. Anyone who spends their first hundred grand on a car wilkl not be around long. The first hundred goes into the legal defense fund. Just give your attorney 20k right off the bat. This way he'll take your calls and you have a few hrs of credit.


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## DrFever (Oct 29, 2011)

hey Gardener i like way your doc says you can grow up to 99 plants what would DEA or FBI do i they caught you ????? i read every day on these medical MJ grow ops getting raided Why ???? because its illiegal Period 

Federal agents reportedly raided several medical marijuana operations in the San Fernando Valley on Wednesday. Agents from multiple federal agencies including the Drug Enforcement Administration, assisted by the Los Angeles Police Department, uncovered pot growing warehouses, according to spokesperson Laura Eimiller. 


"Multiple search warrants were executed," Eimiller said. "It involved multiple agencies including the FBI, DEA, LAPD and the ATF and ICE."

i jus tfind it funny when you think a doctors note gives any person a right to grow in any scale have you called your local DEA and mention to them your doin a grow )


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## mellokitty (Oct 29, 2011)

ooooh sheeeeeeet.

*scampering off to bomb shelter*


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## DrFever (Oct 29, 2011)

SEATTLE &#8212; Canada's so-called Prince of Pot has pleaded guilty to a drug charge in exchange for a five-year prison term.
Marc Emery appeared in U.S. District Court in Seattle on Monday after being extradited last week from Vancouver, British Columbia. He sold millions of marijuana seeds to U.S. customers before his arrest in 2005.
He pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to manufacture marijuana in exchange for an agreed sentence of five years in prison. He is to be sentenced in August, and prosecutors or Emeray may withdraw from the plea deal if the judge issues a different sentence.


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## lamabile85 (Oct 29, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Hey, thanks for all the super positive comments. Shit.
> 
> One time Kitty posted that she wished she could explain what it's like to be a grower in BC. I'm starting to feel similar stirrings. The secrecy of this lifestyle tends to bottle up emotions that would otherwise be released on a regular basis. Guys go to the pub and bitch about work all the time. Career victories are celebrated. Job stresses are talked about and worked through with friends, family, and other people at work. Most people talk about their careers all the time...and with a broad range of people. Not so much in this line.
> 
> ...


I've read this a few time already. There is so much truth in this post. Even in the beginning stages of my growing experience, I can tell you that it's been a safe haven working on this project taking me away from the rituals of everyday life. I've developed such a passion for this but it does tend to bottle up those emotions that you were talking about.

Thanks for you authenticity, Collective.


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## mellokitty (Oct 29, 2011)

i'm still failing to understand what the 6-year-old politically-motivated arrest of a particularly squeaky wheel has to do with this particular journal..... OR how you can find it "funny" that the frontline activists of our "movement" are being silenced by The Man. 

tell me, are you insinuating, then, that cg (and everybody with a doctor's rec in the u.s.) should just stop growing? what is the point of your particular outburst this morning?


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 29, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> i'm still failing to understand what the 6-year-old politically-motivated arrest of a particularly squeaky wheel has to do with this particular journal..... OR how you can find it "funny" that the frontline activists of our "movement" are being silenced by The Man.
> 
> tell me, are you insinuating, then, that cg (and everybody with a doctor's rec in the u.s.) should just stop growing? what is the point of your particular outburst this morning?


I've been chewing on that one for a while now too...


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## Beansly (Oct 29, 2011)

DrFever said:


> hey Gardener i like way your doc says you can grow up to 99 plants what would DEA or FBI do i they caught you ????? i read every day on these medical MJ grow ops getting raided Why ???? because its illiegal Period
> 
> Federal agents reportedly raided several medical marijuana operations in the San Fernando Valley on Wednesday. Agents from multiple federal agencies including the Drug Enforcement Administration, assisted by the Los Angeles Police Department, uncovered pot growing warehouses, according to spokesperson Laura Eimiller.
> 
> ...


 I think the whole 99 plant thing is based on the 5 year minimum for any more than 100 plants. No matter what you do pr pay for, if you have over 100 plants , there's a 5 yr min. that you can't plea or get out of with good behavior. 



DrFever said:


> SEATTLE  Canada's so-called Prince of Pot has pleaded guilty to a drug charge in exchange for a five-year prison term.
> Marc Emery appeared in U.S. District Court in Seattle on Monday after being extradited last week from Vancouver, British Columbia. He sold millions of marijuana seeds to U.S. customers before his arrest in 2005.
> He pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to manufacture marijuana in exchange for an agreed sentence of five years in prison. He is to be sentenced in August, and prosecutors or Emeray may withdraw from the plea deal if the judge issues a different sentence.


Piece of trash is where he belongs.


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## mellokitty (Oct 29, 2011)

way to stick to your guns, beans, but i'm NOT biting this time ...
*conspiratory grins*


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## Joedank (Oct 29, 2011)

CG I don't want to play on you thread but a negative comment about Marc is just unjustified he sent me 100s of seeds alot for free.... Makes me miss overgrow.com ...


mellokitty said:


> i'm still failing to understand what the 6-year-old politically-motivated arrest of a particularly squeaky wheel has to do with this particular journal..... OR how you can find it "funny" that the frontline activists of our "movement" are being silenced by The Man.
> 
> tell me, are you insinuating, then, that cg (and everybody with a doctor's rec in the u.s.) should just stop growing? what is the point of your particular outburst this morning?


Edit just so you'll know I reported dr fevers post here as provoking and completely insulting to anyone fighting for the freedom of quality grow medical cannabis ... Thought y'all should know..


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## DrFever (Oct 30, 2011)

Police power enacted for the health, peace and MORALS of the people.
It is against the law to cultivate, manufacture, distribute or sell MEDICAL marijuana unless you are 1) a patient, growing six plants as per ARTICLE XVIII; 2) a caregiver, limited by this law&#8217;s new, statutory definition, to 5 patients, or 3) a &#8220;locally approved&#8221; business (a &#8220;person&#8221; with a local sales tax license) with a state license to cultivate, and sell medical marijuana or edibles.
Established (MJ) businesses (already locally-approved with local sales tax license) must complete application and pay fee by August 1. Newly-approved locally MJ business have 30 days to pay up and apply even though the app may be denied. If you don&#8217;t apply it is deemed evidence of &#8220;unsatisfactory character, record and reputation&#8221; for future application for the state license.
 Local governments must, if asked, provide a list of all local &#8220;centers&#8221; or operations they granted a sales tax license so they can be identified by the state (for enforcement).
 Only a patient or a caregiver is entitled to the &#8220;affirmative defense.&#8221; 
Before September 1, 2010 a tax-paying business or an &#8220;operation&#8221; must certify they grow 70% of medical MJ or edibles.
*DEFINITIONS:*​*&#8220;GOOD CAUSE&#8221;* (TO BE DENIED A STATE LICENSE) IS TO CULTIVATE, MANUFACTURE, OR SELL OR HAVE AN OPERATION THAT ADVERSELY AFFECTS 1THE PUBLIC HEALTH OR WELFARE OF A NEIGHBORHOOD.
*&#8220;LICENSED PREMISES&#8221; *MEANS WHERE MED MJ IS CULTIVATED, MANUFACTURED, DISTRIBUTED OR SOLD BY A LICENSEE.
*&#8220;LICENSEE&#8221;* A PERSON (NOT PLACE) 
&#8220;*LOCAL LICENSING AUTHORITY&#8221;* IS DESIGNATED BY LOCAL GOVERNMENT probably a regular or special sales tax license, M.L.).
*&#8220;MEDICAL MJ&#8221;* IS GROWN AND SOLD AS PER THIS LAW AND ARTICLE XVIII.
*&#8220;MEDICAL MJ CENTER&#8221; *IS A PERSON WITH A LICENSE BUT NOT A &#8220;PRIMARY CAREGIVER&#8221; AS DEFINED IN PART 10
*&#8220;MED MJ-INFUSED&#8221;* IS EDIBLES, OINTMENTS AND TINCTURES SOLD OR MANUFACTURED BY A &#8220;CENTER.&#8221;
*&#8220;MEDICAL MJ-INFUSED PRODUCTS MANUFACTURER&#8221;* MEANS A PERSON LICENSED BY THIS LAW.
*&#8220;OPTIONAL PREMISES&#8221;* ALLOWED 
*&#8220;OPTIONAL PREMISES CULTIVATION OPERATION&#8221; *IS A PERSON LICENSED BY THIS LAW.
*&#8220;PERSON&#8221;* IS PERSON, PARTNERSHIP, ASSOCIATION, COMPANY, CORP, LLC, ORGANIZATION, MANAGER, AGENT, OWNER, DIRECTOR, SERVANT, OFFICER, OR EMPLOYEE.
*&#8220;PREMISES&#8221;* IS A DISTINCT CONTIGUOUS AREA.
*&#8220;SCHOOL&#8221; *IS PUBLIC OR PRIVATE SCHOOLS WITH CHILDREN.
*&#8220;STATE LICENSING AUTHORITY&#8221;* NEW IN THIS STATE.


*LIMITED ACCESS AREAS*
THE BUILDING OR ROOM WHERE MED MJ IS CULTIVATED, STORED, WEIGHED, DISPLAYED, PACKAGED, SOLD OR POSSESSED FOR SALE AND WHERE *ONLY* THE LICENSEE IS ALLOWED WEARING A STATE-ISSUED BADGE. THE ENTRY AND EXIT MUST BE POSTED WITH SIGNAGE FROM THE STATE AUTHORITY.
*LOCAL OPTION*
THE LAW GOES INTO EFFECT STATEWIDE UNLESS A MUNICIPALITY, COUNTY, CITY OR CITY/COUNTY VOTE BY A MAJORITY TO PROHIBIT A MEDICAL MJ CENTER, AN OPTIONAL PREMISES CULTIVATION OPERATION AND/OR A MEDICAL MJ-INFUSED PRODUCTS MANUFACTURER.


*PART 2 STATE LICENSING AUTHORITY*​Established in the Department of Revenue with its executive director as the head. One employee can be hired per ten centers applying. They get 500k for back ground checks. Funded by a $1 million dollar loan from the Medical MJ Registry, and no money can come from the general fund and this part will be repealed 4/1/2011.
The State Authority grants, refuses and promulgates the rules as well allows moratoriums until the State Authority adopts rules (by Aug 1 deadline for applications & fees, M.L.). By September 1, the State Authority and the Department of Health and Environment must hold a public hearing with all the stakeholders to review all their new rules. (Here is a chance for the public to be heard, M.L.)
The State authority is granted the authority to hold hearings and subpoena records but must maintain the confidentiality of licensee records and books; they must develop the forms etc; they must transmit a report every year to the executive branch; they must request MJ be removed from the Schedule I to the Schedule !! List of dangerous drugs. 
The State Authority must make rules applying; to complying, enforcing, or violation; for officers & employees; instructions to local authority, law enforcement; requirements for inspections, investigations and seizures; create a range of penalties for their use; prohibit unfair practices and misrepresentations; control information and product displays: issue I.D.s to &#8220;persons&#8221; and take their fingerprints; and identify state licensees, their owners, officers, mangers and employees.
The State Authority must make rules applying; to minimum security including lighting, physical security, video and alma requirements; the regulation of storage, warehouses and transportation of medical MJ; sanitary requirements for &#8220;Centers&#8221; and edible manufacturers; to the specific I.D. From patients using a &#8220;Center;&#8221; to labels; to records and their availability; to procedures for renewals, reinstatements, licensing, and paying fees; access for the Department of Revenue to their records; rules to authorize the Department of Revenue to issue citations for (to be written, M.L.) violations and penalties; AND NOTHING KEEPS THEM FROM MAKING ANY RULES THEY WANT OR FIXING THE PRICES (Part 2(XX)(B). 


*PART 3 STATE & LOCAL LICENSING*​*-*The local authority may issue a license for a Medical MJ Center, an Optional Premises Cultivation Operation or a Medical MJ-Infused Products Manufacturer. 
-If they don&#8217;t set up an authority the municipality, city and county, unincorporated area can adopt the minimum requirements in HB 1284:

Restrict the distance between licensees,
Restrict the size of premises.
The State requires locals to use their forms and they must contain plans, specs and a public hearing posted in the newspaper and on the premises containing the names of the applicants. The State may co-review an application while the locals are also investigating if all the nonrefundable fees are paid. 
The Locals have 30 days to refuse or grant the local license upon inspection of the building. The State must be notified if the locals deny app. 
State Licensing Fee: $5000.00. Apps on state forms once locals issue license. If denied, Licensee can ask for a hearing, and the reason for denial does not have to be disclosed to applicant or locals until 15 days before the hearing.
*Persons who can** not **get a license:*
1. Those who have not paid annual fee.
2. Those whose criminal history reveals they are not of good moral character.
3. A Corp, if officers, directors or stockholders are not of good moral character.
4. A physician who makes recommendations for patients.
5. A person who is funded by one not of good moral character.
6. A person under 21.
7. A person in default on any taxes, judgements, child support, the fees, or a student loan. 
8. A person who has a discharged felony more than five years from date of application or any felon ever convicted of possession, distribution or use of a controlled substance.
9. A person who employs another without a criminal background check. 
10. No cops or DAs.
11. A person whose primary caregiver status has been revoked by the Dept of Health.
12. A person for a location that is retail food establishment or wholesale food registrant.
13. A person who has not been in COLO TWO YEARS, but for those who apply before 12/15/2010 and were here 12/15/09.
-When a person&#8217;s criminal history is investigated and/or mandatory finger prints found lacking, the state may consider evidence of rehabilitation, education and character since the last conviction of a felony in issuing a license.
*RESTRICTIONS ON APPS FOR NEW LICENSE:*

A location that is within 1000 ft of one already denied in the past two years.
Deed or lease is required before license issued.
Local zoning bans on a center, grow or manufacturer at location applied for.
Location is within 1000 ft of a school, alcohol treatment facility, college, university, or seminary, or a residential childcare facility, subject to local zoning, to be measured from the nearest property line to the nearest portion of the building using a direct pedestrian route. 
*TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP:*
-Is allowed after locals post ten day notice and have a hearing.
-AUTHORIZES A LOCALITY TO PROHIBIT A CENTER, OPTIONAL PREMISE OR A MANUFACTURER IF THE LOCAL ZONING, HEALTH, SAFETY OR PUBLIC WELFARE LAW IS MORE RESTRICTIVE THAN HB1284.* 
-ALL LICENSEES MUST SEND NOTICE OF CHANGE IN OFFICERS, MANGERS, ETC WITHIN 10 DAYS OF CHANGE 
-ALL NEW PEOPLE MUST PASS BACK GROUND CHECK AND SUBMIT FINGERPRINTS.
-All &#8220;operations&#8221; must be for patients only. 
-Everyone listed on app must be a CO resident for two years.
License good for two years.
The licensing authorities must consider the effect the granting or denial of a second or third license to the same person would have on restraining competition.
A separate license is required for each specific business, entity or geographical location.
All licenses must be displayed with names and dates. 
-Locals can&#8217;t transfer or renew without applicant having a state license first for the entire time needed for the locals license.
-All changes in financial interests must be reported in 30 days.
-Each licensee must manage premises their selves or hire a manager (back ground check & fingerprints required).
-A licensee can move within the locality with permission from local and state authority.
*An OPTIONAL PREMISES CULTIVATION OPERATION LOCATION IS CONFIDENTIAL* EXCEPT TO SHARE W LAW ENFORCEMENT!
*LICENSE RENEWAL:*
-90 days before expiration, the state will notify and licensee has to apply 45 days before expires to locals and 30 days before expires to State. All may be waived, no hearing required unless there were complaints, late filers less than 90 days can pay a $500.00 late fee. 
-The State Authority may reduce or increase fees.
*INACTIVE LICENSES*: 
-Revocation after inactivity for one year.
*UNLAWFUL FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE:*
-Complete disclosure required of all investors and fingerprints with the exception of commercial banks. Intended to block control of a MJ business financed by any other party but the licensee. 
*Part 4 LICENSE TYPES*​
Medical MJ Center
Optional Premises Cultivation Operation
Medical MJ-Infused Products Manufacturer
Occupational licenses and registrations issued by State Authority.
-All licensees must collect sales tax on all sales.
-All state chartered financial institutions are allowed to lend money to licensees.
*Medical MJ Center:*
A) When selling (must be) pre-packaged edibles, the label must say that it contains medical MJ; that it is manufactured without any regulatory oversight; and that there may be a health risk. 
B) An edible manufacturer may operate on a center&#8217;s premises. 
C) A center licensee can only sell MJ grown from their Optional Premises (Does not apply to edible manufacturer).
D) A licensee can only buy 30% of hands-on inventory from another center, nor can a center sell more than 30% of their total inventory.Purchasers must show valid registration card and photo I.D.
E) A center may provide a small amount of MJ to a licensed lab (occupational: 12-43.3-202(2)(a)(IV).
F) All medical MJ must be labeled with a list of chemical additives: nonorganic pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers.
G) All centers must be handicapped accessible!
*Optional Premises Cultivation Operation: Only a center licensee or edible manufacturer can apply for this license.*
*Medical MJ-Infused Products Manufacturer:*
A) Edibles must be prepared using equipment only for that.

An edible manufacturer is allowed to contract with up to five centers in writing, to produce edibles with the centers&#8217; MJ and the contract must state the amount of MJ used and amount of products produced from the centers&#8217; MJ.
Licensed manufacturers can sell to any licensed center.
Sanitary standards in 12-43.3-202(2)(a)(XII).
All edibles must be sealed and labeled.
No edibles consumed on a licensed premise.
Manufacturer must pay all state and local taxes.
A manufacturer who has an optional premises license can not sell that MJ.

*PART 5 FEES*​-Cash &#8220;Fund&#8221; can&#8217;t be transferred to the general fund. 
Applications for:
Licensees, change location, transfer ownership, renewal and expired license renewal.
-Fees can not exceed costs and must be reviewed.
-Applicants pay for fingerprints and back ground checks
-If the state authority is subpoenaed (does&#8217;nt. apply to another gov&#8217;t agency), state officers or employees paid fee, meals and milage and a per diem collected in advance of an appearance in court.

Locals set own, nonrefundable licensing fees collected in advance.


*PART 6 DISCIPLINARY ACTIONS*​-State authority can, after a hearing, suspend or revoke a license, levy a fine or &#8220;other sanction,&#8221; by mail unless a crime involved then licensed can be pulled without notice or hearing.
-Suspension for no longer than 6 months.
-Suspended centers&#8217; patients allowed to transfer their &#8220;Primary&#8221; center to another. (NOTE: FIRST AND LAST REFERENCE TO &#8220;PRIMARY&#8221; CENTER.)
-A fine is available allowing operation during suspension to be considered by judicial review and permanently stayed if: 1) the fine achieves the disciplinary purpose, 2) the books and records show la oss suffered during suspension, and 3) there were no other problems during the previous two years.
-FINE: $500.00 to $100,000.00.
_The State and Local authorities must report to the legislature fines, suspensions and revocations yearly.


*PART 7 INSPECTION OF BOOKS AND RECORDS*​-Licensee must open books (current year and past three) during business hours to the State authority.
-Licensed premises : place of storage, growing, cultivating, sold, or dispensed subject to inspection or investigation anytime including locked areas.
-
*PART 8 JUDICIAL REVIEW*​-Decisions by the State authority are subject to judicial review. &#8220;Net&#8221; revenue is subject to sales tax.






*PART 9 UNLAWFUL ACTS ENFORCEMENT*​It is against the law to:

Consume medical MJ on the premises.
Let another use your patient registration card.
To continue to operate a MJ business without a license.
To buy, sell, transfer, give away or acquire medical MJ except as allowed in this law.
To be in a &#8220;limited access area&#8221; without a &#8220;badge.&#8221;
To not post entry & exit signs in a &#8220;limited access area.&#8221;
To fail to report illegal transfers of licenses or name changes.
To display illegal signage or advertise deceptively, or falsely or to mislead.
To provide a public place for consumption of medical MJ in any form.
To sell to someone without a license or a person without a registry card.
To be under 21 and employed by any licensees.
-An employee can confiscate a patient&#8217;s card if there reasonable cause to suspect fraud. Failure to turn over card to authority within 72 hours not a crime. 
-For a center o possess more than 6 plants and 2 ounces per patient unless patient has a recommendation for more.
-To sell anywhere else but at center (no delivery).
-To have illegal MJ on premises.
-To buy from someone not licensed.
-To sell anywhere else but from a permanent location.
-To possess used paraphernalia on a premise.
-To deliver any place else but from an optional premises to a center.
-To sell, serve, or distribute MJ any other time but between the hours of 8AM and 7PM, 7 days a week.
-To sell, deliver or distribute MJ not grown at a center&#8217;s, a manufacturer&#8217;s or an optional premises&#8217; own location.
-For a physician to receive any money or anything of value for patient referrals.


*PART 10 LEGISLATIVE DECLARATION PROTECTING PATIENTS*​-Protects legal patients from criminal prosecution for possession of less than 6 plants or 2 ozs.
-Protects non-card holding patients with an affirmative defense.
-DEFINES Primary Caregiver as a &#8220;person other than the patient or the patient&#8217;s physician who is 18 and has significant responsibility for managing the well being of patient who has a debilitating medical condition.&#8221;
*Dept of Regulatory Agencies (DORA) must:*

Establish a confidential registry of patient.
Develop an application for patients
Verify medical information.
Issue the registry cards
Tell law enforcement about suspended cards.
Determine the manner in which other debilitating conditions can be added to the list in the constitution.
Allow a waiver for homebound patients to have primary caregiver deliver from center to patient.
*The State Health Agency may:*

Rule what is &#8220;significant responsibility for managing the well being of patient who has a debilitating medical condition.&#8221; EXCEPT MJ or MJ paraphernalia by itself is insufficient .
Create a form for &#8220;Caregiver&#8217;s&#8221; with testimony they provide &#8220;significant responsibility for managing the well being of patient who has a debilitating medical condition.&#8221;
Create a form for the inclusion of &#8220;written documentation&#8221; of a debilitating condition.
ESTABLISH GROUNDS FOR CHANGING A CAREGIVER!!
CONDUCT A PUBLIC HEARING WITH THE DEPT OF REVENUE ABOUT THE NEW RULES BY SEPT I , 2010.
*PRIMARY CAREGIVERS:*

May not delegate authority or assist others in providing medical MJ to a patient.
Tow or more caregivers can not join together to cultivate medical MJ.
Only a center or one with a optional premise, or a manufacturer or a primary caregiver for a patient or themselves can grow medical MJ.
A primary caregiver must provide to law enforcement their patients registry I.D. NUMBER ONLY.
A PRIMARY CAREGIVER IS LIMITED TO FIVE PATIENTS UNLESS THERE IS NO OTHER ACCESS.
A PATIENT CAN ONLY HAVE ONE PRIMARY CAREGIVER.
A PATIENT WHO HAS DESIGNATED THEMSELVES AS THEIR OWN CAREGIVER, MAY NOT HAVE ANOTHER PRIMARY CAREGIVER.
A primary caregiver can not charge more than the costs of cultivation or purchasing medical MJ, but may charge for caretaker services.
THE DEPT OF HEALTH MUST START A CONFIDENTIAL REGISTRY OF AVAILABLE PRIMARY CAREGIVERS FOR PATIENTS WHO DO NOT HAVE ONE.
A registered primary caregiver or an individual can choose to be put on this registry and with their contact information.
The Health Agency can not vouch for the primary caregiver.
The Dept of Health can grant a patient more caregivers and note in registry.
A patient must declare to the registry where they intend to get their medical MJ: a primary caregiver, a center, or cultivate themselves. 
*REGISTRY CARD: *

A patient must have card or photocopy of app and proof of submission when in possession. 
If a physician has a violation related to the issuance of medical MJ recommendations ONLY, a patient&#8217;s card may be denied or revoked.
A patient OR primary caregiver will have a form to use for renewal every year before its expiration.
The waiver for a homebound patient to have their medical MJ delivered will be on the card and a photocopy must be carried by the primary caregiver. A primary caregiver is also allowed to buy for the homebound patient at a center with the homebound patient&#8217;s card. 
*USE OF MARIJUANA:*
A patient or primary caregiver can not use medical MJ (these rules do not apply to a center or a manufacturer):

In a way that endangers the health and welfare of a person (read: children under 18, M.L.)
In plain view or in a public place.
Doing a task vulnerable to negligence or malpractice law suites.
Use on a school grounds or bus.
Use in a correctional facility
Use in a vehicle, aircraft or boat.
Operate, navigate or be in control of any vehicle, aircraft or boat under the influence of medical MJ.
If there is no debilitating condition.
Nor can any person establish a business to permit patients to congregate and smoke (burning a cigarette, cigar, pipe,or any other matter or substance that contains tobacco or medical MJ) or otherwise consume medical MJ.
*LIMIT ON CULTIVATION:*
-Only registered patients, licensed primary caregivers, Manufacturers and Centers may cultivate medical MJ. 
-If the affirmative defense is raised (you need more MJ THAN 6 PALNTS OR 2 OZS.) the burden of proof and costs are on the patient.
*FEES CAN NOT EXCEED COST (TABOR)*


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## caesar23 (Oct 30, 2011)

Why is a moderator hijacking a thread like this? Insane. CG appears to be doing his grow all legal, and is trying to help sick people also. We should have more people like him on this site. I just don't understand a mod acting like this.


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## Beansly (Oct 30, 2011)

DrFever said:


> hey Gardener i like way your doc says you can grow up to 99 plants what would DEA or FBI do i they caught you ????? i read every day on these medical MJ grow ops getting raided Why ???? because its illiegal Period
> 
> Federal agents reportedly raided several medical marijuana operations in the San Fernando Valley on Wednesday. Agents from multiple federal agencies including the Drug Enforcement Administration, assisted by the Los Angeles Police Department, uncovered pot growing warehouses, according to spokesperson Laura Eimiller.
> 
> ...


dude quit being a hater and get you weight up son.


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## collective gardener (Oct 30, 2011)

DrFever said:


> Police power enacted for the health, peace and MORALS of the people.
> It is against the law to cultivate, manufacture, distribute or sell MEDICAL marijuana unless you are 1) a patient, growing six plants as per ARTICLE XVIII; 2) a caregiver, limited by this law&#8217;s new, statutory definition, to 5 patients, or 3) a &#8220;locally approved&#8221; business (a &#8220;person&#8221; with a local sales tax license) with a state license to cultivate, and sell medical marijuana or edibles.
> Established (MJ) businesses (already locally-approved with local sales tax license) must complete application and pay fee by August 1. Newly-approved locally MJ business have 30 days to pay up and apply even though the app may be denied. If you don&#8217;t apply it is deemed evidence of &#8220;unsatisfactory character, record and reputation&#8221; for future application for the state license.
> Local governments must, if asked, provide a list of all local &#8220;centers&#8221; or operations they granted a sales tax license so they can be identified by the state (for enforcement).
> ...


 
Thank you for quoting Colorado law. What does this have to do with me in California?


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## collective gardener (Oct 30, 2011)

And thank you RUI for deleting my responses to his inflamatory post, yet leaving his there. What has become of this site?


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## collective gardener (Oct 30, 2011)

I have to go water my Too Big grow op. Back in a while.


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 30, 2011)

Deleted mine too, WTF. This will not end well.


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 30, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Deleted mine too, WTF. This will not end well.


My thoughts to


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## dapio (Oct 30, 2011)

CG has his lawyers paid up none of these guidelines are worth a damn its not what you know its what you can prove in court welcome to America


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## legallyflying (Oct 30, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Deleted mine too, WTF. This will not end well.


With great power comes great responsibility. Lol


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## DrFever (Oct 30, 2011)

first off guys i never verbally attacked anyone do i find it hard to believe its liegal Yes i do to grow 99 plants or what ever when i know of a person that can grow MJ and is only allowed like 4 inside and 2 outside i search the net and it says pretty much the same thing hey CG dont get me wrong this is a forum where even here charters and rights still exsist where any person on here doesnt have to believe if your growing legit all the power to you if thats all you need is a doctors note dam 
i should of went to my mother who is a doctor and got a legit paper saying 2000 plants right 
Lawyers are another thing they will say anything but the hard fact is what can be done dont take my posts as a insult or anything i realized before your from cali area a am from another country all together 

Also for the replys theres no need to attack me either saying i am against MJ reform or anything but can assure you one thing theres more corruptness in our government that prob makes it hard to make MJ liegal when you really think about MJ is big money i know first hand TRUST ME so anyway CG get back to work let this thread carry on cheers fellow members


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## collective gardener (Oct 30, 2011)

DrFever said:


> first off guys i never verbally attacked anyone do i find it hard to believe its liegal Yes i do to grow 99 plants or what ever when i know of a person that can grow MJ and is only allowed like 4 inside and 2 outside i search the net and it says pretty much the same thing hey CG dont get me wrong this is a forum where even here charters and rights still exsist where any person on here doesnt have to believe if your growing legit all the power to you if thats all you need is a doctors note dam
> i should of went to my mother who is a doctor and got a legit paper saying 2000 plants right
> Lawyers are another thing they will say anything but the hard fact is what can be done dont take my posts as a insult or anything i realized before your from cali area a am from another country all together
> 
> Also for the replys theres no need to attack me either saying i am against MJ reform or anything but can assure you one thing theres more corruptness in our government that prob makes it hard to make MJ liegal when you really think about MJ is big money i know first hand TRUST ME so anyway CG get back to work let this thread carry on cheers fellow members


Trust me, your posts were extremely inflamatory. It's not like it was just me who saw them that way. Look at the thread. Every response to your comment was negative.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You know nothing of California Medical Marijuana Law. It is quite obvious that you get a kick out of people being busted for growing/distributing. You think it's "funny" that I think I can grow what I grow with a Doc's note? I suggest you take a couple hrs, read my entire thread, and get an education on exactly what it is I do. 

Do you know what collective is? Let's say a husband can grow 6 mature plants, and a wife can grow 6 mature plants. This means, together, they can grow 12 mature plants. If the husband worked out of town, the wife would be taking care of 12 mature plants. This is perfectly legal, right? (trust me...it is) What I do is no different. I grow for a group of people that cannot grow their own for whatever reason. Growing costs money, right? I can be reimbursed for the costs incurred to grow the member's weed. This means the rent, the power, the nutes, and the LABOR. At the end of every cycle, I add up all the growing costs, divide that number by the quantity produced, and come up with a pound price. This is what our members pay for their medicine...not one dime more. If we produce more than our members need, the overage is sold to other collectives who have produced LESS than their members need. this keeps the cost to our members quite low. Our members, many of whom are quite sick, pay about half the average retail cost for their medication. This is why they have joined our collective. Ours is a collective for heavy users who cannot afford to buy their meds elsewhere.

I would also like to point out that we give away several ounces every month to needy patients. I donate to a delivery service who only sells to cancer and AIDS patients. Our members all agreed to pay a tad extra for their meds so that we can do this.

I assure you that we are 100% legal under California Law...where we live...where we grow....where it matters to us. Your disdain for larger grow ops is so obvious. You state that you think I am illegal. Why do you care? You suggest I contact the DEA. Would that entertain you...me being marched off in handcuffs to spend a decade away from my wife and family? 

We are fighting a war here. The People of several states have approved the use of Medical Marijuana, yet the Feds continue to send people to prison for doing something perfectly legal under state law. I don't know what country you're from and I really don't care. But, you really need to pick a side. I find it absurd that a Mod here is taking the anti-medical marijuana side. This will not encourage people to visit this site. I came here to back up and help other growers, and to recieve the same. What are you doing here?


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## DrFever (Oct 30, 2011)

CG let it go i didnt mean to make it sound that way if it was i am sure the big hand of rollitup would of deleted my posts and i would of got my hand slapped but as you can see it wasn;t we are all on the internet and its real easy to think a person is being one way when he is not thats the problem in many forums and things get out of hand like the last 3 pages i didnt break any forum rules 
even as a mod i am still a person like you or anyother member on this site 

and also might i add you just contradicted your self saying your liegal then on other end postin this 

You suggest I contact the DEA. Would that entertain you...me being marched off in handcuffs to spend a decade away from my wife and family


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## TheLastWood (Oct 30, 2011)

Dr fever how the hell did u become a mod. Your not supposed to go in ppls threads and argue with them.

Edit: I suggest everyone pms a real mod with screenshots until dr noob is demodded for abuse of power (deleting posts for no reason), spamming (all that law crap), and whatever else you can think of.


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## C.Indica (Oct 30, 2011)

DrFever said:


> CG let it go i didnt mean to make it sound that way if it was i am sure the big hand of rollitup would of deleted my posts and i would of got my hand slapped but as you can see it wasn;t we are all on the internet and its real easy to think a person is being one way when he is not thats the problem in many forums and things get out of hand like the last 3 pages i didnt break any forum rules
> even as a mod i am still a person like you or anyother member on this site
> 
> and also might i add you just contradicted your self saying your liegal then on other end postin this
> ...


You have no idea how much of an ass you've made yourself to be.
First of all, the word is Illegal.
If I see you spell liegal one more time I swear I'm going to bring the dictionary definition of the word in here.

When you piss someone off, THEY're not going to be the one to let it go any time soon, that's a level of respect you have to earn buddy.

He is legal by STATE law, Marijuana is Illegal by FEDERAL law.
If you REALLY don't understand what this means, then you are CLEARLY not old enough to be involved with Medical Marijuana.

In which case, you certainly shouldn't be a moderator.
This is a website for us to help eachother garden our favorite flowers.
Not a place for little high school boys to troll around while they smoke their parent's weed.


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## Wolverine97 (Oct 30, 2011)

DrFever said:


> CG let it go i didnt mean to make it sound that way if it was i am sure the big hand of rollitup would of deleted my posts and i would of got my hand slapped but as you can see it wasn;t we are all on the internet and its real easy to think a person is being one way when he is not thats the problem in many forums and things get out of hand like the last 3 pages i didnt break any forum rules
> even as a mod i am still a person like you or anyother member on this site
> 
> and also might i add you just contradicted your self saying your liegal then on other end postin this
> ...


There is no contradiction. None. The DEA is a federal agency. Cannabis is federally illegal. Anyone who grows cannabis is committing a federal crime, even you. In the eyes of the federal govt, you are no different than cg, I repeat no different. He is state legal, as are many of us. You continue to show your ignorance, and try to cover up that ignorance by deleting posts that call you on it.


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## drgreentm (Oct 30, 2011)

Yes federal law supercededes state law but I'm pretty sure that's why cg is trying to keep his plant counts to a minimum, the feds have more important things to do then take down medical cannabis patients, if you want to take a side I suggest taking the side against Mexican cartels flooding over the border and growing hundreds of thousands of illegal plants in are own back yard, murdering people everyday. That to me is worth the fight not coming on a cannabis growing forum and giving legal growers a hard time, he has a good lawyer and am quite sure he knows what he is doing. I have to say drfever you are the worst forum mod I have seen on any site to date hands down so bravo (applauds) you my friend get the worst forum mod of the year award.


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## DrFever (Oct 30, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> Yes federal law supercededes state law but I'm pretty sure that's why cg is trying to keep his plant counts to a minimum, the feds have more important things to do then take down medical cannabis patients, if you want to take a side I suggest taking the side against Mexican cartels flooding over the border and growing hundreds of thousands of illegal plants in are own back yard, murdering people everyday. That to me is worth the fight not coming on a cannabis growing forum and giving legal growers a hard time, he has a good lawyer and am quite sure he knows what he is doing. I have to say drfever you are the worst forum mod I have seen on any site to date hands down so bravo (applauds) you my friend get the worst forum mod of the year award.


i would like to thank you for Nominating me for the worst mod of the year award ) i am not here to make friends so lets get that straight ) secondly obviously this thread has bin monitored by a global mod if i was out of line in any which way or form my posts would of bin deleted and or i would of bin disciplined no different then any other member on this site 
so please enjoy your stay on RIU and have a good evening or morning 
also i would like to add if like yourself, or any others dislike me for my posts or anything THEN I AM DOING MY JOB YA THINK


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## TheLastWood (Oct 30, 2011)

Don't act like your so cool and you earned that mod job. Anyone could have had it. They picked whoever asked pretty much. I didn't want to be a mod because I don't need it to feel important. 

Dr feve u are a damn noob. if you think a "global mod" reads every post in every thread and if its not deleted then its ok. 

Whether we are rite or wrong this thread was going on fine without you, and now that your here its a big arguement. So why don't you do the modly thing, and get the fuck out, to restore the peace.

Your opinion is unwanted and unappreciated.


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## Gastanker (Oct 30, 2011)

Amazing grow - well the first 93 pages I've read so far. Subbed for sure.

Hope those predatory mites ened up working out - hopefully you'll find a remedy for DrFever as well.


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## collective gardener (Oct 31, 2011)

Everybody stop. Report him, but do not engage here. He has totally fucked up enough of this thread already. Let's get back to the grow. I suggest we do not reply to any of his taunts here. Let's deal with it on the report abuse level, and/or PM's to RUI Admin. We have, thus far, crafted the most positive thread here. There is no other thread this size with so little negative stuff going on. Well, makybe Kitty's. Anyways, we can't let some nobody drag the whole thread down. I'll take some pics today and post em tonight. That always gets things back on a nice tone. 

Speaking of pics. My last public comment to Dr Fever is, I saw your pics...your plants look like shit. 

Love you guys. Thanks for backing the thread. Anyone close to harvesting? Anyone got some good 8th week bud porn? The best I have is week 4...and a few week 7 plants in a test gone bad. They look like hell, and I really don't want to post pics. BUT, it may serve the group to see what can happen by just using the wrong container progression. Basically, Commercial J gave me some plants in little 16 oz cups full of rockwool croutons and perlite. That's how he grows. I cut out the bottom of the cup, and jammed it into a 2 gallon pot full of rockwool croutons, and top dressed with coco for moisture retention. Should be fine, right? Hell no. These plants have sucked their whole lives. Any plant that did not start life in a 4" block has totally sucked in my current grow. I MUST go from clone block, to 4" rockwool block, to 6" rockwool block. It can stop there, or the 6" block can go into a pot _on top of_ croutons and perlite. It just depends on how much water the plant is using. This system works great for me. Commercial J uses no blocks, only the crouton/perlite combo in 10 qt pots that he disposes of every harvest. His plants are vegged in 16 oz plastic cups, then transplanted to the 10 qt pots when they go into bloom. His grow rocks serious ass. I tried this method and damn near killed all my plants. LMAO. I have no idea why.


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 31, 2011)

heres a positive post 8wk 2 days got to love bud porn


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## drgreentm (Oct 31, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Everybody stop. Report him, but do not engage here. He has totally fucked up enough of this thread already. Let's get back to the grow. I suggest we do not reply to any of his taunts here. Let's deal with it on the report abuse level, and/or PM's to RUI Admin. We have, thus far, crafted the most positive thread here. There is no other thread this size with so little negative stuff going on. Well, makybe Kitty's. Anyways, we can't let some nobody drag the whole thread down. I'll take some pics today and post em tonight. That always gets things back on a nice tone.
> 
> Speaking of pics. My last public comment to Dr Fever is, I saw your pics...your plants look like shit.
> 
> Love you guys. Thanks for backing the thread. Anyone close to harvesting? Anyone got some good 8th week bud porn? The best I have is week 4...and a few week 7 plants in a test gone bad. They look like hell, and I really don't want to post pics. BUT, it may serve the group to see what can happen by just using the wrong container progression. Basically, Commercial J gave me some plants in little 16 oz cups full of rockwool croutons and perlite. That's how he grows. I cut out the bottom of the cup, and jammed it into a 2 gallon pot full of rockwool croutons, and top dressed with coco for moisture retention. Should be fine, right? Hell no. These plants have sucked their whole lives. Any plant that did not start life in a 4" block has totally sucked in my current grow. I MUST go from clone block, to 4" rockwool block, to 6" rockwool block. It can stop there, or the 6" block can go into a pot _on top of_ croutons and perlite. It just depends on how much water the plant is using. This system works great for me. Commercial J uses no blocks, only the crouton/perlite combo in 10 qt pots that he disposes of every harvest. His plants are vegged in 16 oz plastic cups, then transplanted to the 10 qt pots when they go into bloom. His grow rocks serious ass. I tried this method and damn near killed all my plants. LMAO. I have no idea why.


 i truly am sorry for the reply to such ridiculous trolling, i honestly thought he was going to delete my post  anyway CG hope the op is going well and the ladies are thriving (and i know they are) im sitting at 6 1/2 weeks and here is one of my pics to calm some nerves. keep it safe, green and growing buddy.


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## mellokitty (Oct 31, 2011)

alright kids, it's time to pretty this joint up!


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## collective gardener (Oct 31, 2011)

Hell Fucking Yesssss!!!!!

Great pics gang. I'm working on a video. Decided we needed something special to get over the hump. But, shit, with these posts I think we're over it. What a great collection of pure un apologetic BUD PORN. Have you people no shame???LMFAO.


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## mellokitty (Nov 1, 2011)

these days i have my own personal CeeGee:


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## collective gardener (Nov 1, 2011)

Hey, Kit, that's a big ol' plant named after me. _Really_ big. What are you trying to say? Seriously, is it a MOM? A production plant in bloom that has already stretched, but not yet developed flowers? Some kind of crazy test plant? It's fucking HUGE!!!

Wait. You can only have 35 plants. Guess it's not too big.


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## collective gardener (Nov 1, 2011)

I suggest everybody read this. It shows how truly fucked up the Feds have become. : http://www.sacbee.com/2011/10/30/4017018/mendocino-pot-raid-causes-stir.html

The Gestapo storm troopers are at it again. My lawyer tols me that I couldn't be an activist and a grower at the same time. This is why.


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## legallyflying (Nov 1, 2011)

I have NEVER witnessed a moderator acting this way. Nor have I seen a moderator with such shamefull spelling and grammer. 

I don't have any week 8 porn but I will throw in some week 2 porn cause this thing is going to be exploding on week 8..

right side of room... 6 plants. Ak-47, white widow big bud






Left side, same deal













that's a bottle of ph buffer behind that stalk  I have 12 plants with stalks like that.


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## Wolverine97 (Nov 1, 2011)

Nice stalk legally. That's pretty impressive, I have one or two with stalks around 1-1/4" but nothing like that. What's your medium? You're a Dyna Grow guy aren't you? Or was it GH?


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## mellokitty (Nov 1, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Hey, Kit, that's a big ol' plant named after me. _Really_ big. What are you trying to say? Seriously, is it a MOM? A production plant in bloom that has already stretched, but not yet developed flowers? Some kind of crazy test plant? It's fucking HUGE!!!
> 
> Wait. You can only have 35 plants. Guess it's not too big.


they're a teeny bit bigger than we're used to, but that's about average size for our room. it IS some kind of crazy test plant.


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## Wolverine97 (Nov 1, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I suggest everybody read this. It shows how truly fucked up the Feds have become. : http://www.sacbee.com/2011/10/30/4017018/mendocino-pot-raid-causes-stir.html
> 
> The Gestapo storm troopers are at it again. My lawyer tols me that I couldn't be an activist and a grower at the same time. This is why.


My blood is positively boiling after reading that cg. I absolutely hate our government with the fury of a thousand suns.


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## hellraizer30 (Nov 1, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> My blood is positively boiling after reading that cg. I absolutely hate our government with the fury of a thousand suns.


this is BS make me wonder just how bad its going to get


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## Wolverine97 (Nov 1, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> this is BS make me wonder just how bad its going to get


I think they're just bullying, trying to knock down the momentum of the movement. I don't believe they have the intention to go after everyone, but they have an interest in keeping it illegal.


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## TheLastWood (Nov 1, 2011)

Why isn't this mainstream news? 

Because ppl would be pissed the fuck off. 

Even if ppl don't agree with mmj, they have to see the feds total disregard for the democratic process.


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## Wolverine97 (Nov 1, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Why isn't this mainstream news?
> 
> Because ppl would be pissed the fuck off.
> 
> Even if ppl don't agree with mmj, they have to see the feds total disregard for the democratic process.


I emailed the link to a lot of the people in my address book-thing.


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## legallyflying (Nov 1, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Nice stalk legally. That's pretty impressive, I have one or two with stalks around 1-1/4" but nothing like that. What's your medium? You're a Dyna Grow guy aren't you? Or was it GH?


First run of DWC. Botanicare nutes, kelp foliar,liquid light, ginormous PK booster and bene tea throughout flower. Plants grow SO fast in dwc. It's a little freaky.


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## collective gardener (Nov 2, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> First run of DWC. Botanicare nutes, kelp foliar,liquid light, ginormous PK booster and bene tea throughout flower. Plants grow SO fast in dwc. It's a little freaky.


You running a chiller on your res? Every DWC or RDWC system I've run has developed root rot without a chiller. I agree that the growth is explosive. Aeroponic is slightly faster, but 10 times the hastle. I now believe that RDWC is the best system for explosive growth combined with dependability and ease of use. The Undercurrent system is a great one to copy. 

Crop looks great. Nice production with a low plant count. How long a veg to get her settup for bloom?


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## murr1057 (Nov 2, 2011)

Beansly said:


> I wish I could've heard this when I was just starting out not 8 months ago. Not that I would change my decision to grow, but I might have been more prepared for the road ahead of me. Idk about some of the other growers here, but I like how, I think it was c.indica put it; "I'm all in". I've known for a decade that I wanted to spend my life growing and have been writing journals and journals full of notes and plans since I smoked high-grade (what we here generically call 'chronic') for the first time in 1998. I was only 14 then, but I knew what I wanted to do.
> Think you for your wisdom CG.


 thanks for this, it WAS a great post.


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## legallyflying (Nov 2, 2011)

6-8 weeks of veg. Maybe 10? Can't remember right now to be honest. Lots of people are fending off root rot by just adding benie tea on a regular basis. Even with temps in the 75-78 region. I'm running what I call a "semi-current" dwc. Fuck individual buckets for sure. I am using my ebb and flow controller (basically timed backwards) to always keep the individual buckets full and empty them into a 75 gallon Rez then refill 3x a day. There is about 40 gallons in the plant buckets and 30 in the rez which sits on the concrete floor. This stabilizes my water chemistry and keeps temps around 72(water in Rez acts as a buffer for ph,ppm, and temp) 

The controller also automatically tops off the buckets as the plants transpire. Which is good because they are absolutely banging and drinking 15 gallons a day. Weird thing is that my ppm are very high...like 1800 in week 3. Plants not burning so not such a big deal but at this rate week 5-6 is going to be around 2200. Yikes.


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## Wolverine97 (Nov 2, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> 6-8 weeks of veg. Maybe 10? Can't remember right now to be honest. Lots of people are fending off root rot by just adding benie tea on a regular basis. Even with temps in the 75-78 region. I'm running what I call a "semi-current" dwc. Fuck individual buckets for sure. I am using my ebb and flow controller (basically timed backwards) to always keep the individual buckets full and empty them into a 75 gallon Rez then refill 3x a day. There is about 40 gallons in the plant buckets and 30 in the rez which sits on the concrete floor. This stabilizes my water chemistry and keeps temps around 72(water in Rez acts as a buffer for ph,ppm, and temp)
> 
> The controller also automatically tops off the buckets as the plants transpire. Which is good because they are absolutely banging and drinking 15 gallons a day. Weird thing is that my ppm are very high...like 1800 in week 3. Plants not burning so not such a big deal but at this rate week 5-6 is going to be around 2200. Yikes.


Better drop those nutrient levels, your pH will be through the floor at that rate... Not to mention the osmotic force of having that high ppm outside the root zone.


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## legallyflying (Nov 2, 2011)

I know but they are still absorbing about 300 ppm a night and ph still climbing.


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## Wolverine97 (Nov 2, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> I know but they are still absorbing about 300 ppm a night and ph still climbing.


That's crazy talk.


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## collective gardener (Nov 2, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> 6-8 weeks of veg. Maybe 10? Can't remember right now to be honest. Lots of people are fending off root rot by just adding benie tea on a regular basis. Even with temps in the 75-78 region. I'm running what I call a "semi-current" dwc. Fuck individual buckets for sure. I am using my ebb and flow controller (basically timed backwards) to always keep the individual buckets full and empty them into a 75 gallon Rez then refill 3x a day. There is about 40 gallons in the plant buckets and 30 in the rez which sits on the concrete floor. This stabilizes my water chemistry and keeps temps around 72(water in Rez acts as a buffer for ph,ppm, and temp)
> 
> The controller also automatically tops off the buckets as the plants transpire. Which is good because they are absolutely banging and drinking 15 gallons a day. Weird thing is that my ppm are very high...like 1800 in week 3. Plants not burning so not such a big deal but at this rate week 5-6 is going to be around 2200. Yikes.


 
I'm with Wolverine on lowering EC/TDS. 1800 is very high for a DWC system. I'm confused about how they're using 300ppm day and also 15 gallons of water. We would typically see high water usage and increasing ppm, as the plants use more water than nutes. You may find that lowering your ppm will help stabilize the PH. I've ran every system out there at every PPM you can think of. Here's what I have learned: 1000 PPM works great on every hydro system out there. It's WAY more effective to change water more often than to run hot nute solution. From day 2 after a water change your solution is not optimum. The rule I use is to change the water when the fresh water I have added equals the size of the res and plant buckets. If you are using 15 gallons a day, and there is 70 gallons of water, that would be every 5 days. Just what I do in water systems.

All that bullshit being said, the plants look great, and that's what's most important. However, my plants looked great growing with Cutting Edge. In fact, they looked better than with AN. But, the AN out yielded the CE BIG TIME, and the quality was superior, as well. This told me that just because they look healthy doesn't mean you are maximizing your plant's potential. Try playing with your ppm and see what happens. I know you won't be chasing PH as much with lower ppm. Also, if you keep your bloom room dry (40% RH) to ward off PM, lower nute PPM is needed because the rapid transpiration that occurs in a dry atmosphere. We are having dry winds here. The RH in my op was 27% this morning. We fed with 600ppm nutes...and fired up the swamp cooler to get some humidity going.


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## legallyflying (Nov 2, 2011)

yeah, OK. I'll lower it and see what happens. I know it doesn't make a whole lot of sense but i'm telling you I checked everything..like twice. I was running around 1100-1200 in veg and they started to show micro deficiencies. But nonetheless, you guys likely have waaaaay more hands on experience.


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## hellraizer30 (Nov 2, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> yeah, OK. I'll lower it and see what happens. I know it doesn't make a whole lot of sense but i'm telling you I checked everything..like twice. I was running around 1100-1200 in veg and they started to show micro deficiencies. But nonetheless, you guys likely have waaaaay more hands on experience.


hey legal you can be seeing def at 2000 if you dont let your ph swing a bit, your plants feed on different thing at different ph ranges,
why I stopped holding my ph at 5.8 and now set at 5.6 and let it swing to 6.0 then re set, this might help you out


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## legallyflying (Nov 2, 2011)

Yeah, I'm on that program as well. (letting ph float around)


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## hellraizer30 (Nov 2, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> Yeah, I'm on that program as well. (letting ph float around)


Then you must have some hungry bitchs lol


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## legallyflying (Nov 3, 2011)

Word! And I don't mean to bogart your thread but it's relatively douche free so I figured WTF. I think they are REALLY hungry. The water consumption could be lower than I stated as I don't really measure it, but it's about 8" in a 70 gallon Rez. So anyways, I changed my Rez on Monday and was at 1900. Left town for work. 

Wife says yesterday..need to add water. She adds back the water and takes reading...1600 she says. 
About 10 minutes ago she says se added back water again. Ppm of 1020!! 

She added cup of BC bloom and 1/2 cup Calmag. Now at 1280. 

It does seem like they are just super fucking feeding but then again, they are BIG plants, especially for their "effective" individual Rez size which is only 6 gallons per plant. 

You guys just have me worried. Maybe I should change my Rez every 4 days or something. I'm currently adding a shit ton nutrients anyways and there is that whole chemical imbalance thing. 

Thoughts?


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## lamabile85 (Nov 3, 2011)

Collective,

Are you still using Cutting Edge?


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## Wolverine97 (Nov 3, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> Word! And I don't mean to bogart your thread but it's relatively douche free so I figured WTF. I think they are REALLY hungry. The water consumption could be lower than I stated as I don't really measure it, but it's about 8" in a 70 gallon Rez. So anyways, I changed my Rez on Monday and was at 1900. Left town for work.
> 
> Wife says yesterday..need to add water. She adds back the water and takes reading...1600 she says.
> About 10 minutes ago she says se added back water again. Ppm of 1020!!
> ...


Well, I don't run hydro so CG or someone else would probably know better than I, but your plants do seem to be taking it very well. And as he mentioned above, and I know you know, your rh plays a big role. I actually shoot for around 50-55% so that I don't end up getting calcium and other micronutrient deficiencies, then I drop it the final two weeks into the 40-45% range. I find that if rh goes too low, the newest growth appears to burn a bit, but it's actually a deficiency. Ideally, you'd be measuring VPD (combination of temp and rh) but I just guesstimate on that usually. Anyhoo...


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## mellokitty (Nov 3, 2011)

ph nutrient uptake chart (x = pH, y = uptake efficiency)

http://www.avocadosource.com/tools/FertCalc_files/pH.htm


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## Gastanker (Nov 3, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> ph nutrient uptake chart (x = pH, y = uptake efficiency)
> 
> http://www.avocadosource.com/tools/FertCalc_files/pH.htm


That is a soil chart. If you guys are talking about hydro its a bit different. I think you're talking about hydro...


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## Beansly (Nov 3, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> ph nutrient uptake chart (x = pH, y = uptake efficiency)
> 
> http://www.avocadosource.com/tools/FertCalc_files/pH.htm


pssshhh
_what do avocados have to do with weed...dummy

_


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## collective gardener (Nov 3, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> Word! And I don't mean to bogart your thread but it's relatively douche free so I figured WTF. I think they are REALLY hungry. The water consumption could be lower than I stated as I don't really measure it, but it's about 8" in a 70 gallon Rez. So anyways, I changed my Rez on Monday and was at 1900. Left town for work.
> 
> Wife says yesterday..need to add water. She adds back the water and takes reading...1600 she says.
> About 10 minutes ago she says se added back water again. Ppm of 1020!!
> ...


Whoa! Are we adding nutes between water changes? If so, stop. That is a big no no. As far as seeing "micro" defs with lower ppm, 1000ppm is more than high enough. Any defs would have to be the nutes and/or ph. I should mention that micro defs are very rare when using any quality hydro solution. 

When you change your water do you do it "mid drain cycle"...so that you can get all the water...including what's in the plant buckets? This would be best.

I know what you mean about how big and fast they can grow in just a 6 gallon bucket. You guys may remember Godzilla, my DWC test plant this year. That was just an air stone in a bucket full of nutes. The root ball got so big it only took 2 gallons of nutes to fill the bucket...the roots displaced the rest. I find your system interesting. "Drain and Fill". Good way to move the solution around. Congrats on avoiding any root rot, as well. That's why I stopped playing with DWC in this op. I would have needed a big ass chiller to really crank ass, and didn't want to go that route. It is an amazing system. I like that the plants can be moved around. I do not like re using nutes, though. I've become a huge fan of drain to waste. This is really the only way to KNOW that the nutes your plants are getting are perfect. Plus, my PH pen is gathering dust...nice..


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## collective gardener (Nov 4, 2011)

Found a feel good video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAc4N_drTXU


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## lamabile85 (Nov 4, 2011)

Collective,

Are you still using Cutting Edge?


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## InsaneMJ (Nov 4, 2011)

Its funny how you mention your PH pen is collecting dust, because that's how it is for me. At any given time I already know what my ph will be. I only use my PPM meter now. And even with that I'm getting pretty good at guessing what it will be lol.
-I.MJ


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## collective gardener (Nov 4, 2011)

lamabile85 said:


> Collective,
> 
> Are you still using Cutting Edge?


No. I'm using Advanced Sensi Bloom (but am going back to Connoseur), Big Bud, B-52, and Cutting Edge Mag Amp. I use Yellow Bottle Final right before the flush. The AN just out produced the CE so much, I had to switch. Now, I'm trying to find something as good as AN. Trying the GroTek line next week on 4 test plants.


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## SupaM (Nov 4, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> No. I'm using Advanced Sensi Bloom (but am going back to Connoseur), Big Bud, B-52, and Cutting Edge Mag Amp. I use Yellow Bottle Final right before the flush. The AN just out produced the CE so much, I had to switch. Now, I'm trying to find something as good as AN. Trying the GroTek line next week on 4 test plants.


CG, I am going to add that Yellow Bottle Final to my line up. Have you had any experience using silica stones as your media, and if so, what is your take on it? Thanks in advance!


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## curious2garden (Nov 4, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Found a feel good video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAc4N_drTXU


ACK you made me cry, shame on you! Just when I feel so cynical, thanks.

I am beginning my first grow and am using NFT. I have some left over (from a tomato grow) old General Hydroponics, Flora Grow, Flora Bloom and Flora Micro. Are they ok to start with? Or do I need to buy new? 
Thank you for all your information it is amazing,
Annie


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## collective gardener (Nov 5, 2011)

curious2garden said:


> ACK you made me cry, shame on you! Just when I feel so cynical, thanks.
> 
> I am beginning my first grow and am using NFT. I have some left over (from a tomato grow) old General Hydroponics, Flora Grow, Flora Bloom and Flora Micro. Are they ok to start with? Or do I need to buy new?
> Thank you for all your information it is amazing,
> Annie


The GH nutes should be fine. Just check to see how much fallout has settled in the bottom. If there's like an inch of crust in the bottom, buy new nutes.

I really do not think NFT is the best settup for you. I would go with Sunshine #4 soiless mix+30% perlite in 1 gallon then 5 gallon pots. Water once per day with 1/2 strength nutes, pure water on Sunday and Thur. Done. That settup will never fail you. There are no pumps to break or clog...no trays to clog or overflow...just no bullshit to go wrong. The Sunshine Mix and Perlite can be watered everyday without getting too wet. 

Sorry to just butt right in like that. I'd just hate to see you fight with an NFT settup right off the bat.


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## TheLastWood (Nov 5, 2011)

U like sunshine better than coco cg?


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## C.Indica (Nov 5, 2011)

Ahh CG that totally just threw my thought train into a wall.

Nice video.
Reminds me of childhood.


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## collective gardener (Nov 5, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> U like sunshine better than coco cg?


No, I do not. But I like it better for beginning growers. It's idiot proof. If you add 30%-50% perlite, you can water everyday without worry. Sunshine #4 and AN 2 part PH Perfect nutes have to be the easiest way to grow a solid crop with very little to go wrong. I used to advise beginners to use GH nutes, but my experience with AN has changed my mind. 2 part is so easy to mix. Even without a TDS or PH pen, you can just go with half strength and be sure that your ppm will be around 1000 and the PH will be perfect. I really don't think new growers should use ebb and flow, aero, NFT, or any other hydro system. Soiless is the way to go. Then, when the atmosphere is perfect, and they have some experience, they can start playing with more productive and more complex systems. 

I have this thing about needing to be able to pick up a plant and move it at anytime in the cycle. This rules out ALOT of systems for me. It's why I never SCROG. Just this morning I took 36 plants from bloom, one at a time, into the veg/work room. I set them on a bench, carefully pruned them, thoroughly sprayed them with my secret coctail (spectracide and Neem), and placed them back on the bloom table in a better position than they came out of. I like this. I like removing a plant to work on it. Having the canopy or the roots in a big tangled mess drives me nuts.


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## curious2garden (Nov 5, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> The GH nutes should be fine. Just check to see how much fallout has settled in the bottom. If there's like an inch of crust in the bottom, buy new nutes.


Thank you.



collective gardener said:


> I really do not think NFT is the best settup for you. I would go with Sunshine #4 soiless mix+30% perlite in 1 gallon then 5 gallon pots. Water once per day with 1/2 strength nutes, pure water on Sunday and Thur. Done. That settup will never fail you. There are no pumps to break or clog...no trays to clog or overflow...just no bullshit to go wrong. The Sunshine Mix and Perlite can be watered everyday without getting too wet.
> 
> Sorry to just butt right in like that. I'd just hate to see you fight with an NFT settup right off the bat.


You know the reason I first decided to go with NFT was because every time I have tried to grow anything in soil I have killed it. I have killed things that people say you can not kill. So in 1998 when I first decided to try mmj I started with the NFT system. I did a successful grow of tomatoes and it was actually pretty easy once I realized that the gph metering tips wouldn't work, all they did was clog, tossed them and used the 1/4" tubing staked into the net pots.

Because you have recommended it I will also get some Sunshine Mix #4 and Perlite and follow your instructions. I keep re-reading your grow journal and so much is over my head but each time I read it I retain more. You are a great resource.


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## Beansly (Nov 6, 2011)

Hey CG, I hate to even ask cause I know you must be asked questions all the time, but I was hoping you could give me some info on the pre98 bubba? I came across a clone labeled pre98 bubba, but you never know. The guy who gave me the clone only told me that the bud came out airy (he wasn't the grower), but I don't think real bubba's supposed to be airy. Idk though. help?


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## collective gardener (Nov 7, 2011)

Beansly said:


> Hey CG, I hate to even ask cause I know you must be asked questions all the time, but I was hoping you could give me some info on the pre98 bubba? I came across a clone labeled pre98 bubba, but you never know. The guy who gave me the clone only told me that the bud came out airy (he wasn't the grower), but I don't think real bubba's supposed to be airy. Idk though. help?


Real Pre-98 is super dense. IF it's grown in a good atmosphere. Too hot and it will get airy. Real pre-98 is so hard to find it's almost non-existant.


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## Beansly (Nov 7, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Real Pre-98 is super dense. IF it's grown in a good atmosphere. Too hot and it will get airy. Real pre-98 is so hard to find it's almost non-existant.


Yeah, It probably isn't pre98 Bubba but idk. Does bubba have hermaphroditic tendencies?


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## collective gardener (Nov 8, 2011)

Beansly said:


> Yeah, It probably isn't pre98 Bubba but idk. Does bubba have hermaphroditic tendencies?


Knock wood, I haven't had a problem with our pheno. Commercial J hasn't either. He tried a tray of Skywalker that went wholesale Hermi and blew out a whole room. There's alot of that out there. I've even heard of growers selling clones that go hermi on purpose...to mess up people's grows. It's shitty, but it makes sense. From a pure business standpoint, it's the smart thing to do. By flooding the market with destructive clones, they reduce or eliminate competition. 

I don't know how people get decent genetics these days without knowing someone that already has some good shit. There is a bunch of real shit out there. I have a friend who's just getting started. He's been growing a year and has grown around 20 different strains. All of them have been sub par. All were advertised as real high end shit...mostly OG's. But, not one of them turned out to be anything close to a true OG. The clones were bought from a few different clubs. 

I believe most clones are not what they say they are. I also believe that no real commercial grower would ever let live plants of a great strain leave the grow op. Furthermore, I believe that most of the clones being provided to dispensaries to sell are knowingly sub par. It's lucrative to sell clones, but insane to let other people have your best genetics. I could easily sell clones of some shit weed to the clubs we deal with and pass them off as the same Bubba we sell them. If a customer came back to complain, you just tell them they fucked up the grow. It sucks how easy and profitable it is. It also sucks that there's really no way to know what it is you're getting until you spend the time and energy to bloom it out. The only realiable source is, and has always been, a friend who has been growing the strain for several crops. This way you know it's stable enough for production growing. Anything else needs almost a full year of testing before being rolled into production. Anything short of that risks a lost crop.


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## Beansly (Nov 8, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Knock wood, I haven't had a problem with our pheno. Commercial J hasn't either. He tried a tray of Skywalker that went wholesale Hermi and blew out a whole room. There's alot of that out there. I've even heard of growers selling clones that go hermi on purpose...to mess up people's grows. It's shitty, but it makes sense. From a pure business standpoint, it's the smart thing to do. By flooding the market with destructive clones, they reduce or eliminate competition.
> 
> I don't know how people get decent genetics these days without knowing someone that already has some good shit. There is a bunch of real shit out there. I have a friend who's just getting started. He's been growing a year and has grown around 20 different strains. All of them have been sub par. All were advertised as real high end shit...mostly OG's. But, not one of them turned out to be anything close to a true OG. The clones were bought from a few different clubs.
> 
> I believe most clones are not what they say they are. I also believe that no real commercial grower would ever let live plants of a great strain leave the grow op. Furthermore, I believe that most of the clones being provided to dispensaries to sell are knowingly sub par. It's lucrative to sell clones, but insane to let other people have your best genetics. I could easily sell clones of some shit weed to the clubs we deal with and pass them off as the same Bubba we sell them. If a customer came back to complain, you just tell them they fucked up the grow. It sucks how easy and profitable it is. It also sucks that there's really no way to know what it is you're getting until you spend the time and energy to bloom it out. The only realiable source is, and has always been, a friend who has been growing the strain for several crops. This way you know it's stable enough for production growing. Anything else needs almost a full year of testing before being rolled into production. Anything short of that risks a lost crop.


I hear you man. It's tough out there as a new grower without connections though man. I have no idea what he gave me but my only chance to make it here is to get a good clone of a well established strain, I'm almost sure of it. So I have to try it out if I wanna make it. I don't really have a choice until I get a better clone connect which I don't see happening soon. I have some interesting seeds like hindu kush x bubba and ak48 x hillbilly skunk and I have some miscellanious OG and some TGA Plushberry growing, but I'm not sure any of those strains are good enough to fill a whole grow room with.
Idk, I'm rambling now. Thanks cg.


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## InsaneMJ (Nov 11, 2011)

I think I'd have to agree with you on that one CG. I got a "GDP" strain from a medical shop in SoCal about a month and a half ago, just cut 12 clones and I flowered one out. Sure enough the plant was male.. I took the clones and the mother to the shop and they tried to blaim me for the clone turning male saying I stressed it and what not... We had a nice litte conversation, and he was generous enough to replace my clones and mother for some nug. I think this is why I will never get strains from a medical shop again. A few years ago it wasn't like this though, I would be able to go into LA and buy some legit Kush clones. At the time I didn't even clone, too bad because I can't get my hands back on those strains.
-I.MJ


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## collective gardener (Nov 11, 2011)

InsaneMJ said:


> I think I'd have to agree with you on that one CG. I got a "GDP" strain from a medical shop in SoCal about a month and a half ago, just cut 12 clones and I flowered one out. Sure enough the plant was male.. I took the clones and the mother to the shop and they tried to blaim me for the clone turning male saying I stressed it and what not... We had a nice litte conversation, and he was generous enough to replace my clones and mother for some nug. I think this is why I will never get strains from a medical shop again. A few years ago it wasn't like this though, I would be able to go into LA and buy some legit Kush clones. At the time I didn't even clone, too bad because I can't get my hands back on those strains.
> -I.MJ


 
This is the first I've heard of male clones being sold. This backs my idea that growers are trying to distribute sub-par clones to protect their markets. Now they've gone to straight males. Well, the vendor for those clones will eventually be found out. The club owners will figure it out after 3 or 4 complaints. Then the grower will just sell his male clones to the store down the block. Personally, I think it's far more destructive to sell shitty females. This way the grower takes care of them for 8 whole weeks before he/she realizes that the clones they bought were dog shit. 

I've been trying to convince an associate of mine of this. I "loaned" him some 18" plants to bloom out. He buys clones from clubs and has spent the past year growing total crap. He has 3 - 1000 watt lights in a decent grow op and still BUYS pot from me. That's how shitty the clones are he's been buying. I gave him 18 Bubbas to bloom out. He thinks it's his growing skills (lack of) that's causing the bad results. I told him it's bad genetics and gave him the Bubbas to prove it. The plants are in week 3 and looking killer. He's tried my Bubba and loves it. Yet, he keeps on buying clones from clubs, thinking that what they call "OG" is really and OG. He has a third tray ready for plants and wants to put the store bought clones in it. I had to offer him some Tahoe plants to keep him from wasting another 2 months on shit cuts. I don't know what it will take for people to realize that 99% OF STORE BOUGHT CLONES SUCK!!! Not only do they suck, they suck on purpose. 

When commercial J found out the new Skywalker would go hermi, another grower really wanted a cut of it. He told us that he knew a guy that would buy clones than go hermi or are super prone to PM, or that look good but really suck. The guy sells these shitty cuts to clubs. Me and J were shocked...but the dude told us that this guy is just one of many who sell defective genetics to clubs. 

When Helper D and I bought clones from Cloneville in the Valley we didn't have high hopes. But, we did think that we'd get some pot with at least some redeeming qualities. We were so wrong. The NYC Diesel we took all the way to bloom was a joke. It had nice big buds, was super healthy, but no trichomes. This shit was "No High" pot. No smell, either. It was the perfect plant to fuck up a grow with. It looked great all the way to the end. We kept thinking it would develope some crystals...but it never did. For 10 weeks that piece of shit took up light in my bloom room. The weed it produced was worthless. One plant yielded 7 ozs, and we threw it away. 

The delivery service we service is starting a grow op. He asked me about genetics. I, of course, refused to give him any. But, I told him he's be better off buying hundreds of seeds and high grading than buying cuts. It takes 8 months to high grade a batch of seeds...that's from planting seeds to harvesting a crop from the selected pheno. That's alot of power bills to pay with no income. But, you can end up with a great strain. You could buy clones for years and not come up with a decent pheno. Unless you have a source for known cuts, buying seeds provides a better chance of getting a great pheno than buying cuts from clubs. 

If anyone knows of a club that sells great cuts CONSISTANTLY, I'd love to hear about it. Personally, I don't think such a club exists. I've just never met a grower who would EVER sell cuts of his best strains for $5-$10 each.


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## budbro18 (Nov 11, 2011)

I always get my genetics online. 
If you pick a quality seed company like TH Seeds you rarely have disappointment.

Everything ive grew from them has flowered in the amount of time they say, looked, smelled, grew and had the potency that they claim too. Also theyve really got there strains down to a few phenos. So when you get a ten pack you get to see and chose the perfect ones. 

Also TH Seeds pride themselves in using regular seeds because of the strength they have. Although they have a some feminized seeds which have yet to hermie on me, there regular seeds are what a real grower will invest in to find the strongest most stable mothers there are.

Try there The HOG or SAGE seeds. They are a real production plant without losing a bit of potency with strong roots and fast growth/flower.

But thats just my 2 cents. It makes me sad hearing that its so difficult to get real clones from a medical store. 

OH! one more thing. i was wondering how the advanced nutrients are treating you?
ive heard some good and bad things about them, mostly about changing there formula or watering down there products.
ive been looking and theres so many people i feel are too bias one way or the other
so id love some actual facts from someone switching to advanced as there new nute so it can be compared without bias. Especially someone with such a large set up.

Keep up the good work!!!
Everythings lookin good


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## InsaneMJ (Nov 11, 2011)

Yeah, it was the first time I've gone outside my cirlce of friends to get a different strain. Either they wouldn't give up the GDP or they didn't have it. Needless to say I'll just go with 200 seeds of GDP to get what I'm looking for lol.
-I.MJ


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## collective gardener (Nov 11, 2011)

budbro18 said:


> I always get my genetics online.
> If you pick a quality seed company like TH Seeds you rarely have disappointment.
> 
> Everything ive grew from them has flowered in the amount of time they say, looked, smelled, grew and had the potency that they claim too. Also theyve really got there strains down to a few phenos. So when you get a ten pack you get to see and chose the perfect ones.
> ...


Luckly, I'm all set on genetics. 2 Pre-98 Bubba Phenos and our Tahoe OG x 91 Chemdog are all I need to de what we do. I was speaking to the folks searching for GREAT genetics. Seed companies can provide good genetics, but the primo stuff is still traded between friends. Fortunately, totally stabilized seeds do not exist. This gives us a chance to find some real good stuff if enough seeds are tried. I agree with you on feminized seeds...I wouldn't touch them. 

My experience with Advanced has been quite good so far. The best results were actually from alternating between AN and Cutting edge every other day. That's cheaper, too. After I get this crop out we'll be starting some real nute tests. I have enough Grotek and Roots Organic to pit those against AN and CE. I can tell you that AN Bud Ignitor does not seem to make any difference. I do not use it, and a friend does. We grow the same cuts. It's 2 different rooms, which isn't the best way to test, but his bud set was no different that mine. The key to AN is figuring out what additives really work, and which ones are snake juice. Currently we use Sensi Bloom, Big Bud, B-52, Cutting Edge Mag Amp, and Yellow Bottle Final the last week with the flush. The last crop we started with Connoiseur instead of Sensi Bloom and the Connoiseur worked better...better enough to justify the cost increase. That was the crop we alternated with CE nutes. So, it could be the Connoiseur or the addition of CE that improved the results. Either way, I'm going back to Connoiseur as a base and alternating days with CE. The CE costs 1/4 what the AN costs. I have a feeling that whatever secret sauce is in the AN is just as effective used every other day as everyday. 

Once this crop is out, we'll be able to do some real nute tests. I'll post the whole thing. I've been puting off testing because we've been so busy just getting the basics dialed in. Now I want to start looking for those 5% and 10% yield improvers.


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## collective gardener (Nov 11, 2011)

InsaneMJ said:


> Yeah, it was the first time I've gone outside my cirlce of friends to get a different strain. Either they wouldn't give up the GDP or they didn't have it. Needless to say I'll just go with 200 seeds of GDP to get what I'm looking for lol.
> -I.MJ


That's very smart of you to start with 200 seeds. Done right, a 200 seed test should give you a very nice pheno. I can't wait to see what you come up with. Good Luck!!!


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## Joedank (Nov 11, 2011)

^^^ Not that it matters in Cali but know for a fact the Colorado med center is selling good cuts namely 2 of mine gifted to bros who grow for it . They sell them with my full support as I do not offer my cuts for sale or like to clone for others...
They offer my cut of Sweetooth #3 it is the highest thc strain I have at 17-23% 
Also my Cindy -99 witch I had to ask for back cuz I though the a-13 was better but not in the long run as the pineapple smell purple hues of the c-99 sell better and taste better but the high is crazy... It is like eight or twelve years old from brothers Grimm stock a gift from GRIMEY of overgrow.com the first elite I collected glad the boys are spreading real cuts .. I have heard (correct me if this second hand info is wrong ) but I hear the manager at the medical beach kush club sells clones of real cuts but they are his own genetics...


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## collective gardener (Nov 12, 2011)

Joedank said:


> ^^^ Not that it matters in Cali but know for a fact the Colorado med center is selling good cuts namely 2 of mine gifted to bros who grow for it . They sell them with my full support as I do not offer my cuts for sale or like to clone for others...
> They offer my cut of Sweetooth #3 it is the highest thc strain I have at 17-23%
> Also my Cindy -99 witch I had to ask for back cuz I though the a-13 was better but not in the long run as the pineapple smell purple hues of the c-99 sell better and taste better but the high is crazy... It is like eight or twelve years old from brothers Grimm stock a gift from GRIMEY of overgrow.com the first elite I collected glad the boys are spreading real cuts .. I have heard (correct me if this second hand info is wrong ) but I hear the manager at the medical beach kush club sells clones of real cuts but they are his own genetics...


It doesn't suprise me that Colo has some folks wanting to do it right. Here in LA, we're so short sighted and cutthroat it's pathetic. I'm sure that we have the best genetics in the world (here in the state), but most people are out to get there's. In a way, I'm one of those people. I will not let any live plants leave my grow. But, I wouldn't sell cuts I knew were bad just to jack up other people's grow ops. 

I like many things that Colorado do. One thing I do not like is their law keeping anyone with a criminal history out of the medical marijuana industry. The best growers I know ALL have criminal histories. I understand what they are trying to do. But, forbiding ex-cons from being in the industry just forces them into the black market. Wouldn't it be better to have them all out in the open where an eye can be kept on them? It's the double edged sword of regulation. Heavy regulation may suck, but notice that Colorado didn't get hit with the Fed crackdown. 

There is a huge vacuum in the clone market. Someone could make a ton of money operating a QUALITY clone shop. I think the clones would be better off if they were cut to order. There's only a small window between being rooted enough for transplant and being too rooted for a macro plug. Clones cut to order would be in that perfect zone at pickup. This could solve the biggest prob I've seen with commercial clones...the fact that more than half DIE. The other problem is depending on vendors for your cuts. A quality clone shop would either grow all its own mothers, or only deal with PROVEN vendors. The shop should also bloom out clones from vendors on a regular basis to protect its customers. It would be far better to offer healthy clones of just 3-4 great strains than a huge variety of crap. I can't imagine the stampede if I were to offer my Pre-98 cuts for like $20/ea. BUT, I can't do that right now. Maybe once I move on to a new strain I could make some money selling off the Bubba. It's such a great plant to grow...I really can't imagine finding anything I'd rather work with anytime soon.


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## C.Indica (Nov 12, 2011)

CG, I'm sure you know this, but just incase..

Plants need to be hardened off when switching between any environment..
This means taking plants from the clone shop's veg room, outdoors to a vehicle, into a new building, and put in your controlled environment, scares the holy piss out of them.

Treat them like rare orchids, and I'm sure they'd live at least a little more.

Not aimed to offend


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## budbro18 (Nov 12, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Luckly, I'm all set on genetics. 2 Pre-98 Bubba Phenos and our Tahoe OG x 91 Chemdog are all I need to de what we do. I was speaking to the folks searching for GREAT genetics. Seed companies can provide good genetics, but the primo stuff is still traded between friends. Fortunately, totally stabilized seeds do not exist. This gives us a chance to find some real good stuff if enough seeds are tried. I agree with you on feminized seeds...I wouldn't touch them.
> 
> My experience with Advanced has been quite good so far. The best results were actually from alternating between AN and Cutting edge every other day. That's cheaper, too. After I get this crop out we'll be starting some real nute tests. I have enough Grotek and Roots Organic to pit those against AN and CE. I can tell you that AN Bud Ignitor does not seem to make any difference. I do not use it, and a friend does. We grow the same cuts. It's 2 different rooms, which isn't the best way to test, but his bud set was no different that mine. The key to AN is figuring out what additives really work, and which ones are snake juice. Currently we use Sensi Bloom, Big Bud, B-52, Cutting Edge Mag Amp, and Yellow Bottle Final the last week with the flush. The last crop we started with Connoiseur instead of Sensi Bloom and the Connoiseur worked better...better enough to justify the cost increase. That was the crop we alternated with CE nutes. So, it could be the Connoiseur or the addition of CE that improved the results. Either way, I'm going back to Connoiseur as a base and alternating days with CE. The CE costs 1/4 what the AN costs. I have a feeling that whatever secret sauce is in the AN is just as effective used every other day as everyday.
> 
> Once this crop is out, we'll be able to do some real nute tests. I'll post the whole thing. I've been puting off testing because we've been so busy just getting the basics dialed in. Now I want to start looking for those 5% and 10% yield improvers.



Great to hear! id do anything for a pre 98 bubba clone and keep it forever. regardless of how good my other strains got

And i cant wait to see that comparison. have you heard of the million dollar challenge by AN??

talk about puttin your money where your mouth is.

Also they recently released jungle juice as a 3 part base nute
Its some of the cheapest stuff out there but with the same strength that there other products claim, minus the pH perfect, which takes about a tsp of ph up/down to fix anyway.
i havent seen much on it from growers but AN talk it up like there regular products.
Try adding that to the comparison when you get around to it. 

Any pictures to post??? Havent seen any in a while. its probably hard with so many plants you could probably shoot a movie haha


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## collective gardener (Nov 14, 2011)

I have heard of the million dollar challange. I'm not too big a fan of Big Mike and his blow hard attitude. They rolled out that Jungle Juice as a direct challange to General Hydroponics Flora 3 part. It contains the same stuff. But, AN added a bunch of aminos and shit. I actually like the PH Pefect component in AN's nutes. It's very stable and keeps the PH in the zone even overnight in the rockwool block...which is rare. I'm not too interested in testing Jungle Juice. I'm really looking for high performance nutes, and even AN calls Jungle Juice a "basic" nute. 

I know there's a bunch of Advanced Nutrient haters out there. I used to lead the charge. I still don't care for the company or Big Mike. But there's a few things they're doing right. The PH Perfect is great, but the best thing they've done is to get the phosphorous out of the bloom nutes. People think they need a bunch of P...they don't. The only reason nute companies put a bunch of P in the bloom nute is because the market demands it. Plants don't need anywhere close to that much P. They use far more calcium than P. Advanced took a stand and started making bloom food with low P numbers and very high K numbers. Other companies should follow suit. I was told by my friend in the nute business that P should NEVER be higher than N. 

So there's my Advanced pitch for the day. Today begins the Grotek Nute Challange. 3 plants vs 3 plants. They went into bloom yesterday, were flushed, and will get their first Grotek feeding today. Our camera bit the dust. Once I replace it (gimme a couple days) I can take pics of the 6 plants involved in the Grotek Challange. Stay tuned...


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## Someguy15 (Nov 14, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I have heard of the million dollar challange. I'm not too big a fan of Big Mike and his blow hard attitude. They rolled out that Jungle Juice as a direct challange to General Hydroponics Flora 3 part. It contains the same stuff. But, AN added a bunch of aminos and shit. I actually like the PH Pefect component in AN's nutes. It's very stable and keeps the PH in the zone even overnight in the rockwool block...which is rare. I'm not too interested in testing Jungle Juice. I'm really looking for high performance nutes, and even AN calls Jungle Juice a "basic" nute.
> 
> I know there's a bunch of Advanced Nutrient haters out there. I used to lead the charge. I still don't care for the company or Big Mike. But there's a few things they're doing right. The PH Perfect is great, but the best thing they've done is to get the phosphorous out of the bloom nutes. People think they need a bunch of P...they don't. The only reason nute companies put a bunch of P in the bloom nute is because the market demands it. Plants don't need anywhere close to that much P. They use far more calcium than P. Advanced took a stand and started making bloom food with low P numbers and very high K numbers. Other companies should follow suit. I was told by my friend in the nute business that P should NEVER be higher than N.
> 
> So there's my Advanced pitch for the day. Today begins the Grotek Nute Challange. 3 plants vs 3 plants. They went into bloom yesterday, were flushed, and will get their first Grotek feeding today. Our camera bit the dust. Once I replace it (gimme a couple days) I can take pics of the 6 plants involved in the Grotek Challange. Stay tuned...


 Nice looking operation your setting up here. I like that your really researching your stuff before you dive in. Although that's sensible when your not operating at the hobby level, business ventures call for business plans. Subscribed for one hell of a show!

(and I agree, high P comes from the days of soil growing. I'm always looking for a 5-6 or a 13/14 ect. Mag & Cal are used by MJ like crazy, like they should almost be primary nutes lol)


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## lostNug (Nov 14, 2011)

Damn sucks to hear people getting fucked up cuts. Sad shit.

I luckily have got connections for strains but I did get a pre98 cut from the club that I just harvested. Has many charcteristics of bubba but is very dif at the same time. Either way it came out real good. Lots of trichs, great taste/smell and very nice high. Doesn't knock me on myass like my platinum bubba doe.

U wouldn't happen to have any pre98 pics so I can compare too?


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## Wolverine97 (Nov 14, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I have heard of the million dollar challange. I'm not too big a fan of Big Mike and his blow hard attitude. They rolled out that Jungle Juice as a direct challange to General Hydroponics Flora 3 part. It contains the same stuff. But, AN added a bunch of aminos and shit. I actually like the PH Pefect component in AN's nutes. It's very stable and keeps the PH in the zone even overnight in the rockwool block...which is rare. I'm not too interested in testing Jungle Juice. I'm really looking for high performance nutes, and even AN calls Jungle Juice a "basic" nute.
> 
> I know there's a bunch of Advanced Nutrient haters out there. I used to lead the charge. I still don't care for the company or Big Mike. But there's a few things they're doing right. The PH Perfect is great, but the best thing they've done is to get the phosphorous out of the bloom nutes. People think they need a bunch of P...they don't. The only reason nute companies put a bunch of P in the bloom nute is because the market demands it. Plants don't need anywhere close to that much P. They use far more calcium than P. Advanced took a stand and started making bloom food with low P numbers and very high K numbers. Other companies should follow suit. I was told by my friend in the nute business that P should NEVER be higher than N.
> 
> So there's my Advanced pitch for the day. Today begins the Grotek Nute Challange. 3 plants vs 3 plants. They went into bloom yesterday, were flushed, and will get their first Grotek feeding today. Our camera bit the dust. Once I replace it (gimme a couple days) I can take pics of the 6 plants involved in the Grotek Challange. Stay tuned...


Oh man. Now I have a moral dilemma, I've been clubbing fools upside the head for weeks in a couple other threads about AN. Now what's a brother to do? Don't want to club CG at all...


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## Someguy15 (Nov 14, 2011)

I stay far away from an. Why try to wade ur way through their 30 diff products when 3 to 5 bottles of any other line is all you need. I dislike businesses that intentionally try to confuse their customers into buying more bottles. Not hating, just adding my 2c.


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## hellraizer30 (Nov 14, 2011)

Im against AN methods aswell but if you dont follow the hype and stay with there base nutes and b52/big bud or kushie kush
You cant go rong, best yield to date with that


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## C.Indica (Nov 14, 2011)

lostNug said:


> Damn sucks to hear people getting fucked up cuts. Sad shit.
> 
> I luckily have got connections for strains but I did get a pre98 cut from the club that I just harvested. Has many charcteristics of bubba but is very dif at the same time. Either way it came out real good. Lots of trichs, great taste/smell and very nice high. Doesn't knock me on myass like my platinum bubba doe.
> 
> U wouldn't happen to have any pre98 pics so I can compare too?


Sadly found this looking for a Headband grow to study..
Assholes these days and their storefronts.


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## caesar23 (Nov 16, 2011)

Hey CG, I was wondering what your opinion of the new reality show called Weed Wars starting in December is? (The show is following the Oakland Harborside Health Center, it says it is one of the biggest dispensary) I know you put a very large premium on not drawing too much attention to yourself so you don't get busted. It seems like this guy is doing the opposite. I live in the south so I can't wait to watch the show, b/c i don't get to see anything about the legal MJ industry except what I read here. If the show can focus on the true benefits of MJ it might help take the stigma away from it. I really hope the show can do some good, I would love to see the industry legalized. I'm rambling, but one of the main problems is the way the DEA categorizes MJ, it makes it impossible or nearly impossible for scientist to actually study MJ in the lab. Anyway, I'm excited for the show, but I do worry about them being shut down by the feds if the show gets too popular. The government will do anything it seems to keep MJ illegal and taboo so they can protect big pharma. On a separate note, hope all is well in the grow, can't wait for some pictures, and keep up the good work in your efforts to bring meds to needy people.


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## collective gardener (Nov 16, 2011)

SomeGuy,
Yeah...magnesium and K are my big fight. Getting that ballance right is my only challange right now. 

LostNug,
There are dozens of Pre-98 pics on this thread. Any pic labled "bubba" is our pre-98.

Wolverine,
I agree with you. I hate myself for using AN. I'll club me for you. The company is Satan. BUT, the shit works FAR better than anything else I've ever used. My yield didn't just go up a little, either. Like Hellraizer, I just use Sensi Bloom, Big Bud, and B-52 from the AN line. I also add magnesium sulfate in larger and larger doses as we get deeper into bloom. 3 bottles isn't that bad. I do believe that 1/2 their shit is snake oil. I wouldn't buy any of their biological shit. We're testing the GroTek line right now. I also want to test a couple plants using the entire AN line (less the biologicals).

My camera is busted. I'll get a new one tomorrow. The room looks pretty good right now. Totally full. Time to add on....


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## budbro18 (Nov 16, 2011)

caesar23 said:


> Hey CG, I was wondering what your opinion of the new reality show called Weed Wars starting in December is? (The show is following the Oakland Harborside Health Center, it says it is one of the biggest dispensary) I know you put a very large premium on not drawing too much attention to yourself so you don't get busted. It seems like this guy is doing the opposite. I live in the south so I can't wait to watch the show, b/c i don't get to see anything about the legal MJ industry except what I read here. If the show can focus on the true benefits of MJ it might help take the stigma away from it. I really hope the show can do some good, I would love to see the industry legalized. I'm rambling, but one of the main problems is the way the DEA categorizes MJ, it makes it impossible or nearly impossible for scientist to actually study MJ in the lab. Anyway, I'm excited for the show, but I do worry about them being shut down by the feds if the show gets too popular. The government will do anything it seems to keep MJ illegal and taboo so they can protect big pharma. On a separate note, hope all is well in the grow, can't wait for some pictures, and keep up the good work in your efforts to bring meds to needy people.


I saw the previews for this show and cant wait til it starts. Setting my DVR ASAP hahaha

Also im excited to see it because the Discovery Channel is airing it. They usually dont take sides and show things exactly how they are. And theres already so much attention drawn to MMJ. Shit theres been even more lately not because MMJ at all but all those JWH fake weeds, bath salts, and fake X that are all more harmfull than the actual drugs theyre trying to copy.
Most people in my area are becoming more open to the possibility of MMJ due to the number of deaths/crimes associated with these new drugs. Theyve only been around for a little but already have more deaths and controversy than the thousands and thousands of years that weeds been around. 

And tv has really taken the taboo out of alot of things. Look at the history channel. They took walking into a pawn shop, which are usually crappy looking places with everyones lost dreams in them as theyre trying to get the last few dollars out of something to get food or rent, into a luxurious game show like place where you bargin and talk facts with an intelligent clean cut guy. If any of you have been in a pawn shop in a large city you know its nothing like this.

So hopefully since the Discovery Channel is bringing this show around everyone can see the injustices legal MMJ patients face because the DEA doesnt find it fit to obey STATE LAW.
It will hopefully lighten the taboo that people who smoke weed are all lazy good for nothings like our parents/grandparents think.

ALSO CG:

I was just looking through forum after forum trying to find the an nutrients that actually work
i also think they are evil but some of there products just work

I use Fox Farm and Earth Juice usually because im not about weight as much as resin/turpine production. But lately ive been wanting to increase weight and knew advanced had a thousand of bud "increasers". 

So thanks for the advice on the nutes that actually work
Do you know a rough percentage of increase you got from using those???

Keep up the good grow!!!


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## RollUpMikey (Nov 16, 2011)

budbro18 said:


> I saw the previews for this show and cant wait til it starts. Setting my DVR ASAP hahaha
> 
> Also im excited to see it because the Discovery Channel is airing it. They usually dont take sides and show things exactly how they are. And theres already so much attention drawn to MMJ. Shit theres been even more lately not because MMJ at all but all those JWH fake weeds, bath salts, and fake X that are all more harmfull than the actual drugs theyre trying to copy.
> 
> ...


I too would like to know, because I use VooDoo Juice, Nirvana, B-52, & Liquid CarboLoad. 

Your Avatar is awesome BudBro. JS


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## sugar2thefree (Nov 17, 2011)

Hey I have spent the past 3 day reading all 201 pages and I've gotta say CG your a great dude I'm just starting out growing my seedlings have just sprouted the first true leaves. I'm growing in a cabinet cause I live in South Florida and the laws here are very strict on possession and growing. I am growing for personal medicinal use because I have epilepsy but since I started smoking 7 years ago I haven't had a single seizure but I fear that it will be a while before any hint of MMJ being legal here. It also helps with my diabetes keeping my blood sugar in check. Lol I wish I could move to Cali and help some how with op. I really do think MMJ will save the world one day in more than just the medical field. Keep up the awesome work you're one hell of a guy.


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## collective gardener (Nov 17, 2011)

Budbro and RollupMikey,

My yield went up AT LEAST 30%. My quality has always been great, and was still great with AN. Of course, bigger buds are more desirable. So, bag appeal went up as well. Another key to our yiels is Yellow Bottle Final mixed in with the final flush. That shit gives the buds a final push of explosive growth. I should mention that I believe nutes to be one of the last things to play with to increase yield. Atmosphere, light, and canopy shape play a much larger role. I didn't start playing with my nutes until we dialed in the atmosphere, settled in on a medium, perfected our plant size/spacing, and got our pruning dialed in. During all this testing I stuck with the nutes I know work to grow nice healthy plants. 

This brings me to another point. My plants were far healthier with Cutting Edge. I'm fighting P and K problems with AN. It just goes to show you can always learn something new. For over 20 years I equated healthy plants with optimum yields...keep em healthy and they'll produce. Not true. There are other forces at work. I am constantly fighting Mag defs with AN, but still get much more product than when using CE and not experiencing any defs at all. 

Why are they calling it Weed Wars. It just sounds negative. Harborside clearly does not represent the typical dispensary. This may be good. I've seen some dispensaries that would not represent the cause well. Steve DeAngelo is currently getting shafted by the IRS. It's ironic that just after they filmed Weed Wars, the Feds targeted Harborside. If the public likes what they see in Harborside, this may be good. The public may get pissed off that the Feds are wasting time with weed. But, the feds are not too dumb on this one. They sent in the IRS. This makes it look as if Harborside is getting rich and not paying their share. Not true. The IRS is not letting Harborside write off regular business expenses. This would close the doors of any business.


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## RollUpMikey (Nov 17, 2011)

Really then?

So you're not a big fan of AN is what I'm getting. 

They need to dial in their salt build up problems; is my main concern.


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## Wolverine97 (Nov 17, 2011)

Or like, you know, making sure what's in the bottle actually matches what the bottle says... The Oregon Dept of Ag has been seriously busting AN's balls (and rightly so) for some time now. They issued a couple of scathing memo's, but I don't have the energy to dig them up just yet. Out of respect for CG, I won't comment further on AN in his thread. Others should probably do the same, otherwise it'll go the way that all of the other AN threads round heah. That's not something I want to see happen here.


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## mellokitty (Nov 17, 2011)

so..... how many times d'ya figger we can cancel the wedding before we have to return the china?


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## hellraizer30 (Nov 17, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Budbro and RollupMikey,
> 
> My yield went up AT LEAST 30%. My quality has always been great, and was still great with AN. Of course, bigger buds are more desirable. So, bag appeal went up as well. Another key to our yiels is Yellow Bottle Final mixed in with the final flush. That shit gives the buds a final push of explosive growth. I should mention that I believe nutes to be one of the last things to play with to increase yield. Atmosphere, light, and canopy shape play a much larger role. I didn't start playing with my nutes until we dialed in the atmosphere, settled in on a medium, perfected our plant size/spacing, and got our pruning dialed in. During all this testing I stuck with the nutes I know work to grow nice healthy plants.
> 
> ...


Hey cg whats the amount per gal your adding of the final?


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## budbro18 (Nov 17, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Budbro and RollupMikey,
> 
> My yield went up AT LEAST 30%. My quality has always been great, and was still great with AN. Of course, bigger buds are more desirable. So, bag appeal went up as well. Another key to our yiels is Yellow Bottle Final mixed in with the final flush. That shit gives the buds a final push of explosive growth. I should mention that I believe nutes to be one of the last things to play with to increase yield. Atmosphere, light, and canopy shape play a much larger role. I didn't start playing with my nutes until we dialed in the atmosphere, settled in on a medium, perfected our plant size/spacing, and got our pruning dialed in. During all this testing I stuck with the nutes I know work to grow nice healthy plants.
> 
> ...


Ive finally got my strain, environment, and nutes dialed in in my little thing i got goin. One 2x4x5 tent and one 4x4x6.5 tent (small compared to yours)
and ive been searchin for the right combo of "bloom boosters"

Thanks for the advice!

And roll up mikey, Its sick thanks! probably my favorite movie.


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## RollUpMikey (Nov 17, 2011)

I hope to hear more and more, while learning from CG. 

But yes, a favorite movie of mine as well while in the right mood/mindset.


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## curious2garden (Nov 18, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> so..... how many times d'ya figger we can cancel the wedding before we have to return the china?


I love this thread/journal. I always get a great up feeling when reading this. I learn so much and laugh so much. Thanks you guys for keeping this such a positive place to be! And kitty I think you guys probably should keep that china.


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## mellokitty (Nov 18, 2011)

curious2garden said:


> I love this thread/journal. I always get a great up feeling when reading this. I learn so much and laugh so much. Thanks you guys for keeping this such a positive place to be! And kitty I think you guys probably should keep that china.


i totally agree. i'm going to need some sort of peace offering for when wife#1 politely asks me to go on a 'boating excursion' with her.


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## budbro18 (Nov 18, 2011)

RollUpMikey said:


> I hope to hear more and more, while learning from CG.
> 
> But yes, a favorite movie of mine as well while in the right mood/mindset.



Hell yeah take some deems or trippin. hahaha

Makes the movie so much better


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## curious2garden (Nov 18, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> i totally agree. i'm going to need some sort of peace offering for when wife#1 politely asks me to go on a 'boating excursion' with her.


ROFLMAO!! Based on the two of your journals I think with the quantity and quality of the 'stuff' that the two of you grow you could probably keep her pickled to the gills without to much effort therefore avoiding all boating excursions ha!

OHOH!! Or another idea you guys could convert to polygamy and she could groom for both of you guys full time Hmmmmmm maybe not making her that happy in which case you guys would still have to avoid 'accidents' LOL


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## labudman (Nov 18, 2011)

Has anyone every seen a warehouse location with cardboard in the windows like this? I've been poking around for ideas on places to grow and this caught my attention.


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## collective gardener (Nov 20, 2011)

Hellraizer,
4ml/gallon on the Final. We put it in the final flush water day one and 2 of final flush. You'll see the buds expand day 4 and 5 of flush. 

Curious,
Sorry I couldn't talk when you guys called yesterday. I'll give you a shout today...not much going on with this rain.

Kitty,
Keep the china for a minute. The Grotek Challenge is well underway. So far the Grotek plants are neck and neck with the AN plants. We met a new commercial grower yesterday at the hydro store. He's a good friend of Commercial J, which got us talking. My wife finds him very attractive...looks at him like a Scooby Snack. She wants to fix him up with all her single friends...probably for some vicarious lovin. Point here: He grows with Flora Nova. According to Commercial J, his yields are out of this world. He gave me his nute settup:

Full strength bloom:
1 part Flora Nova
2 parts Flora Blend
.2 part Floralicious
.5 part Kool Bloom

We'll be trying this on a few plants in 2 days. That's when 28 more plants go into bloom. I'm not testing any veg nutes right now. Just going CE with some aminos and Kelp. 
Better hang round, Kitty. I have a feeling Wife 1 could suggest an "open relationship" any day now. I may need a hug.

CG


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## hellraizer30 (Nov 20, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Hellraizer,
> 4ml/gallon on the Final. We put it in the final flush water day one and 2 of final flush. You'll see the buds expand day 4 and 5 of flush.
> 
> Curious,
> ...


Thanks cg


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## mellokitty (Nov 21, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Kitty,
> Keep the china for a minute. The Grotek Challenge is well underway. So far the Grotek plants are neck and neck with the AN plants. We met a new commercial grower yesterday at the hydro store. He's a good friend of Commercial J, which got us talking. My wife finds him very attractive...looks at him like a Scooby Snack. She wants to fix him up with all her single friends...probably for some vicarious lovin. Point here: He grows with Flora Nova. According to Commercial J, his yields are out of this world. He gave me his nute settup:
> 
> Full strength bloom:
> ...


bwaaaahahaha vicarious lovin ftw!!! and naaaaah, i think wife1 (like myself) is, consciously or unconsciously, aware of the truth we've both stumbled upon - i've never met a prolific grower who wasn't an excellent lover (hence MY hubby#1 *ehem*). something about the ability to keep the "ladies" happy translates to the ability to keep ladies happy. (conversely, i've met mediocre growers who were.... *coff coff*). 

randomly meeting a hot, single grower is like encountering a super-rare, high fashion (and price tag) item at a bargain sale, even if already have one..... you put the grab on it for your friend who needs one. srsly, can you think of a better xmas present than a hot guy that grows dank? (hey wait, aren't _you_ one of those? any chance you look cute in a big red bow?  you should remind her of that fact.)

flora nova is part of the general family of nutes, right? haven't used any of their product in a while now.... very curious to see how your test goes. 
our own nute test is drawing to a close, i'm gearing up to get down and dirty (ie brew tea).... 
talk dirty to me baby, tell me more about your neck and neck ladies......


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## japonicus (Nov 22, 2011)

Hey CG! Haven't seen you on my thread for a while, but I just wanted to tell you that I harvested my first crop ever yesterday taking 20 hours of trimming. Ended up over 4 pounds of wet weight pulled out of my small grow tent. Very very special day for me. They are now hanging to slow-dry before the cure. I uploaded bunch of harvest pictures. Check them out!

Japonicus


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## collective gardener (Nov 24, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> bwaaaahahaha vicarious lovin ftw!!! and naaaaah, i think wife1 (like myself) is, consciously or unconsciously, aware of the truth we've both stumbled upon - i've never met a prolific grower who wasn't an excellent lover (hence MY hubby#1 *ehem*). something about the ability to keep the "ladies" happy translates to the ability to keep ladies happy. (conversely, i've met mediocre growers who were.... *coff coff*).
> 
> randomly meeting a hot, single grower is like encountering a super-rare, high fashion (and price tag) item at a bargain sale, even if already have one..... you put the grab on it for your friend who needs one. srsly, can you think of a better xmas present than a hot guy that grows dank? (hey wait, aren't _you_ one of those? any chance you look cute in a big red bow?  you should remind her of that fact.)
> 
> ...


Yeah...the Flora Nova is the single part GH stuff. It's the heaviest fucking bottle I've ever felt. The Kool Bloom is Humic and Kelp...the 2 items Simon says would be the first 2 additives on his list. The rest is basic bloom boosting shit. When mixed full strength it lands right at 5.8 PH...a little bonus. I'm getting used to NOT checking PH. It's nice. 

The Grotek Challange is on week 2. It's basically 2 Grotek plants vs. 4 AN plants. I only did 2 plants to ensure I would not run out of Grotek products and could use the suggested ratios throughout. So far the 2 Grotek plants are slightly shorter than all the AN plants. Whether they are shorter and bushier, or actually smaller remains to be seen. I like the Grotek system. The nutrient wheel makes it quite easy to mix nutes for eack week of bloom. The only draw back is that with my perpetual harvest, I have plants in all stages. We like to only use 2 different mixes + flush water. Mix one is weeks 1-5, mix 2 is weeks 6 and 7, and the flush water contains Final (my absolute FAVORITE bulking product). 

I really fucked up a few weeks ago. I sprayed our week 4 plants with Azamax. It burned pistils and fucked my yield big time. The plants matured 2 weeks too early. A whole 8x8 tray ended up yielding about half what it should have. Fortunately, my large plants (plants not on tables) were the new D Bubs, and ended up yielding WAY more than I expected. In the end, I harvested close to the forecast. 

Wife has done wonderful job trimming and learning every job in the grow room. We don't even need to talk anymore. We can just go to work. It turns out that Commercial W (good looking grower in hydro store) is currently without a large grow op to work. I may hire him. I do like just my wife and I working, but we need some time together away from grow. Plus, it will be fun to see my wife parade a stream of available women in front of him. We're going to meet in a few days to see if we can come to some sort of deal. He may want to be paid more than I can pay him. Fact is, I don't need a crop manager...I need a semi skilled helper. We'll see.

The new D-Bub pheno is just amazing. It is SO vigorous. It roots in 5-7 days, and grows like a weed after that. The leaf stems are slightly longer than the Original Bub...allowing more light to the bud sights and thus less pruning is required. While it doesn't look as bushy, it really ends up being quite dense. The node spacing is tighter, the buds are way larger, and the bud density is the same as the Original Bubba. The overall vigor is what sets this thing apart. Our old Bubba hasn't been a seed for well over 10 years. The D Bub was sprouted 6 months ago. We can see the difference. The old Bub is still rocking hard and serving us well...but the D Bub is just a stronger and higher yielding plant. Quality wise, they're both the same. It's actually quite difficult to tell the difference by just smoking. There is a small difference, though...and that works for us. Clubs now want x amount of the old Bubba AND X amount of the D Bub. We were able to consolidate our market for overages. 

I'll get some pics up soon of the D Bub in action. One 40" un topped plant yielded 6 ozs. The plant took up less than a 2x2 square. Needless to say, I'm setting up a massive D-Bub only crop next (well, 80% D Bub). It's going to be epic.


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## adamhew77 (Nov 24, 2011)

I have a random question. I had the unfortunate circumstances of having to move my plants 2 times. They started outdoors and remained that way in the 1st move . This 2nd move brought them indoors so I went from 6 hours light to 12 hours now. I have 45 in flower in about a 7' x 7' and I am running 3 ~ 600 HPS and 1~1000 MH The variable is the veg plants are around the corner and my flowering ones are not 100% dark but with no more than a full moon and none directly hitting. My question is out of the tips of some of the buds it is growing new leaves that look like the beginning of new limbs . I have taken a flowering plant back to veg and it looks alot like that. Can the blue light or the doubling of duration of light be the cause? is it just simply too much light ..is that even possible? I have taken the 1000 out and if needed will shorten the light cycle I am not a newbie but this has me curious. I would like to hear from some more experienced folks on what these are doing and ideas as to why The varieties are Black Widow, Agent Orange, Blue Dream...only the Black Widow's are doing this. Thanks


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## C.Indica (Nov 24, 2011)

You can veg cannabis under a 9/3 light schedule, and flower it under a 6/6 schedule.
Two days per Earth day.

Results are in the air, I've heard not much difference. Could help with heat issues I suppose.
Basically if you went from 6 hours of light per day to 12 hours of light, they'll reveg most likely for a while,
but if they're outside, even ambient shading light will keep them "awake"


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## Wolverine97 (Nov 25, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> You can veg cannabis under a 9/3 light schedule, and flower it under a 6/6 schedule.
> Two days per Earth day.
> 
> Results are in the air, I've heard not much difference. Could help with heat issues I suppose.
> ...


You can't flower under 6/6, you need 12 hours of uninterrupted dark. Not sure where you heard that. There are some that do a 6/12 schedule, but not 6/6.


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## Beansly (Nov 25, 2011)

I would do bad things to innocent people for your genetics CG. 

Epic journal. Can't wait to see the pics.


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## collective gardener (Nov 25, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> You can't flower under 6/6, you need 12 hours of uninterrupted dark. Not sure where you heard that. There are some that do a 6/12 schedule, but not 6/6.


Thanks Wolv. SO MANY people don't get this. It's NOT the 12 hrs of light that blooms plants...it's the 12 hrs of DARK. Like most of you, I have had close calls with interupting the light schedule. I have had to move hundreds of plants on a few hrs notice. Giant moving trucks...2 of them...are the ticket. One is veg and one bloom. I use battery powered lanterns in the veg truck to keep them veging. The bloom truck is just dark all the time. I have left plants in the dark for several days with no ill effects. 

When I have a close call....like leaving bloom room door open...I put the plants into darkness for 24 hrs right away. I feel that this stimulates the flower hormones. My experience has been that one bad night can be recovered from every time. I open the door to my bloom room all the time. A minute or 2 of ambiant light will not throw the plants back into veg. It takes a couple short nights to revert the plant to veg. BUT, once it goes back to veg, you may as well toss it. Getting back to bloom will take weeks and the original flowers may not "re-start".


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## C.Indica (Nov 25, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> You can't flower under 6/6, you need 12 hours of uninterrupted dark. Not sure where you heard that. There are some that do a 6/12 schedule, but not 6/6.


Oh.. did some reading, turns out my buddy didn't do as much homework as I thought he did..
Shouldn't have listened to him, but it's nice that I never tried it.

Found this too,


Hairy Bob said:


> The plants need 12 hours of darkness to induce flowering, it's caused by an enzyme that builds up in the plant's tissues during darkness, and is used during the day. If they only get 6 hours of dark at a time the enzyme will not build up to the levels required to produce flowers.
> I've heard of people doing the extended day thing, you can work it with a 7 day timer as long as the cycle you want adds up to the same amount of hours over a week, if you see what I mean. I've never seen a conclusion reached as to whether it makes a difference for better or worse, and never been inclined to experiment myself.
> The way I see it, this plant has been adapting to the conditions provided by nature for millions of years, and the best thing we can do in this case is to replicate the light cycles as best we can. I know in nature the sun doesn't just go from 18/6 to 12/12 overnight, but at least we generally keep the day length constant.


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## Someguy15 (Nov 25, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Yeah...the Flora Nova is the single part GH stuff. It's the heaviest fucking bottle I've ever felt. The Kool Bloom is Humic and Kelp...the 2 items Simon says would be the first 2 additives on his list. The rest is basic bloom boosting shit. When mixed full strength it lands right at 5.8 PH...a little bonus. I'm getting used to NOT checking PH. It's nice.
> 
> The Grotek Challange is on week 2. It's basically 2 Grotek plants vs. 4 AN plants. I only did 2 plants to ensure I would not run out of Grotek products and could use the suggested ratios throughout. So far the 2 Grotek plants are slightly shorter than all the AN plants. Whether they are shorter and bushier, or actually smaller remains to be seen. I like the Grotek system. The nutrient wheel makes it quite easy to mix nutes for eack week of bloom. The only draw back is that with my perpetual harvest, I have plants in all stages. We like to only use 2 different mixes + flush water. Mix one is weeks 1-5, mix 2 is weeks 6 and 7, and the flush water contains* Final (my absolute FAVORITE bulking product)*.
> 
> ...


Are you referring to Final phase by AN or a different product? I'm thinking it must be different because final phase looks like a flush product to me. Thanks for all the insights, always readin the chatter in this forum, good shit guys.


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## kamie (Nov 25, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Full strength bloom:
> 1 part Flora Nova
> 2 parts Flora Blend
> .2 part Floralicious
> ...


Hey CG, i was just wondering what you meant by 2 parts flora blend, .2 floralicious, .5 kool bloom? is that the amount used per gallon? sorry for buggin ya.


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## Beansly (Nov 25, 2011)

Someguy15 said:


> Are you referring to Final phase by AN or a different product? I'm thinking it must be different because final phase looks like a flush product to me. Thanks for all the insights, always readin the chatter in this forum, good shit guys.


 If I'm not mistaken this is it --->http://www.amazon.com/Yellow-Bottles-Final-Bloom-liter/dp/B004HE9L9Q
But it's by a nute company called 'Yellow Bottle'


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## collective gardener (Nov 25, 2011)

kamie said:


> Hey CG, i was just wondering what you meant by 2 parts flora blend, .2 floralicious, .5 kool bloom? is that the amount used per gallon? sorry for buggin ya.


It's just like it reads. I'm not a fan of "tsp/gal" measurements. I just want to know the proportions of each nute, then I can use my TDS meter to get the desired strength. If I used the quantities on the AN bottles, my nute strength would be like 2500ppm...2 and a half times what I like to use. 

Each number is a "part". You can use tsps. ml, cups, whatever...Just use the same unit of measurement on each nute. As a starting point, I would call 10ml a "part", and go with about 2 gallons of water . That means 10ml of Flora Nova, 20ml of Flora Blend, etc...That should put you around 1000ppm. BUT, you'll just have to mix up a batch to see the right amount per gallon.


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## collective gardener (Nov 25, 2011)

Beansly said:


> If I'm not mistaken this is it --->http://www.amazon.com/Yellow-Bottles-Final-Bloom-liter/dp/B004HE9L9Q
> But it's by a nute company called 'Yellow Bottle'


That's the stuff. California is about to pull it off the shelves. That's how I know it works. Anything that works California won't sell. Same with Floromite (sp?). I need someone in another state to send me some Floromite. I think it's going to be the only way to achieve total eradication so that I can switch to predators and get off spray alltogether. Everytime I think I have these fuckers licked, they come back with renewed purpose. I've used Floromite in the past with great results. The stuff provides contact kill for 30 days. If you spray 1 week into bloom, before any flowers are present, the plants are mite-proof till week 6. In the past it's taken only 3 applications on 3 succesive perpetual crops to totally eradicate all mites. I know it's bad shit, but the only way I'm going to get off all pesticides is to start fresh. Basically, I need to get real dirty to get clean.


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## Beansly (Nov 25, 2011)

I read some interesting stuff about some organic sources of tricontanol, the active ingredient in Final Bloom, in alfalfa pellets and alfalfa meal. Check this read. Oh, and I found out why Final Boost is so expensive; because one kilo of pure Triacontanol cost 500,000 euro. (http://www.carbonkick.fi/growingsystem/pressrelease_eng.doc)
http://treatingyourself.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php?t-3152.html

Below are some information regarding the major benefits of using Alfafa Meal (contains triacontanol) to your plants. (in commercial cultivation, alfafa is said to have increase growth times and foliage weight for roses)

Take from Cannabisworld - http://www.cannabisworld.org/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?threadid=45123

Triacontanol by Ionicbigbud and Duque_de_Rivas

Duque_de_Rivas:

I wanted to let everyone know about a regimen that has really been working for me in hydro. Most of these ideas have come from this thread, which I would be remiss not to mention: http://www.cannabisworld.org/ubb/Fo...TML/005220.html
For my tea and 30 babes, I make up a batch 24 hrs prior to using: one half cup alfalfa pellets tied in an old sock / gallon of water. Alfalfa pellets go for about $10 for a 50 lb. bag and are used as horse feed. A 50 lb. bag is more than enough for you and everyone else you know.
I only make a gallon at a time because it goes bad in about 3 - 4 days after mixing (smells horrible!!!).
Then, either just before the lights come on or go off, I will drench anything that has roots or is over a week old 1x / day. I quit using this spray one week before I switch to 12/12 as the hormone (triacontonol) will keep them in veg longer, making you lose valuable time and contributing to overgrowth; this means I only use it 2 - 4 times, but it is worth it!
Anyway, I wanted to include this in a link in my sig, so I thought I'd start this thread.
Everyone's comments are more than welcome, as the alfalfa issue has come a long way since it was first discussed.
Happy growing!

IonicBigBud:

I have always entertained the idea of the use of Alfalfa meal (3-1-2) in my soil or to make a tea out of so I took the plunge and man it makes a difference. If you are unsure of this chemical do a google search on the subject and you will be sold hands down.
There are 46 posts on the subject from Doctors of horticulture from major universities and the one that sold me was where it stated that super thrive contained this chemical and the use of it dates back to the early 1900's. Corn farmers use this to increase crop production. No wonder my plants grew so well back in Indiana corn fields where I learned to grow!!!
If any of you want to try this organic wonder and have problems finding it in your area PM me. Not everyone has a feed store in their area. and 50lb bag goes a long way so let me know and we will work something out. Happy growing!!!! Peace!!!

Here's one more link worth checking out: http://www.cannabisworld.org/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7395

More vital info & links on Alfafa Meal:

Triacontanol Links:

http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/alfalfa.html
You might want to try using alfalfa tea on your roses. Alfalfa releases triacontanol, an alcohol ester compound that acts as a growth stimulant. The alfalfa is not a food in the sense that nitrogen is, but it makes the uptake of nutrients more efficient. You'll have a dramatic increase in both growth, bloom, and overall vigour of the plant.

2 cups Alfalfa pellets or meal.
2.5 gal. water.
steep for 2-3 days covered.

Apply about a half gallon on your minis and a full gallon on your larger bushes about every 6-8 weeks. This is something that can be done in the garden at any time of the year without the usual concern of stimulating growth at inappropriate times, as you would with fertilizers.

http://www.minerva.at/search97cgi/s..._21_130417.html

The effects of a long chain aliphatic alcohol 1-triacontanol (TRIA) on the photosynthesis and membrane properties of mesophyll protoplasts and chloroplasts isolated from pea leaves were studied. In vitro treatments of isolated protoplasts caused a large enhancement (166 percent) of the CO2-fixation rate after 60 min of TRIA (10 ^-6 M) application as compared to the control. An enhanced photosynthetic response was observed in vitro treated leaf pieces. Application of octacosanol (OCTA) under the same experimental conditions did not result in any stimulating effects. In vivo treatments of pea seedlings also resulted in a significant increase of the net CO2 uptake to 109% and 119% in 10^-8 M and 10 ^-6 M TRIA-treated plants respectively.

http://www.healthy.net/library/jour...1no1/sativa.htm
Medicago sativa (alfalfa) also contains a plant growth stimulating substance identified as Triacontanol. When applied to crops it increases the growth and yield of several species. Applying 117kg of Alfalfa to a hectare of tomatoes increases yields by 10 metric tons per hectare.

http://www.bmi.net/roseguy/fbamend.html
Alfalfa - While at first glance it would appear that nitrogen is the big benefit from alfalfa (Meal: 5-1-2; Pellets: 14-4-, with a good dose of iron and trace elements, the real benefit comes from a fatty acid alcohol called triacontanol which occurs naturally in the waxy surface of the plant&#8217;s leaves. Triacontanol is a root stimulant which, when used in small quantities, can increase yields in garden plots by 30 to 60%. It can be applied to roses straight out of the bag or box, or applied in an "alfalfa tea."

For direct application, sprinkle up to a cup of pellets, a half cup for miniatures, around each bush and water. The pellets then swell up and break apart. Then scratch the alfalfa into the soil or cover with mulch. If you leave the alfalfa on the surface, it will mold, and, when it dries, it will turn hard and crusty&#8230;work it in. Don&#8217;t use more than a cup, or its effectiveness will drop.

For alfalfa tea, add 10 to 12 cups of alfalfa pellets to a 32 gallon garbage can, add water, stir and steep for 2 or 3 hours to a couple of days. You can add 4 to 6 cups of Epsom salts and 8 ounces of fish fertilizer as a "fortifier", if you wish. Apply a gallon per bush, 1/3 gallon per miniature. Stir often to keep it mixed. You can pour the slurry on the bottom of the garbage can onto some of the roses, or add it to your vegetable garden.

50 lb bags can be purchased at farm & feed stores. Use once or twice a year.

http://www.vioryl.gr/products/agroactive_list.html
Check out &#8220;Gigamix&#8221; in their listing:
GIGAMIX EMULSION FOLIAR PRODUCT (11-1-1)+trace elements


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## kamie (Nov 26, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> That's the stuff. California is about to pull it off the shelves. That's how I know it works. Anything that works California won't sell. Same with Floromite (sp?). I need someone in another state to send me some Floromite. I think it's going to be the only way to achieve total eradication so that I can switch to predators and get off spray alltogether. Everytime I think I have these fuckers licked, they come back with renewed purpose. I've used Floromite in the past with great results. The stuff provides contact kill for 30 days. If you spray 1 week into bloom, before any flowers are present, the plants are mite-proof till week 6. In the past it's taken only 3 applications on 3 succesive perpetual crops to totally eradicate all mites. I know it's bad shit, but the only way I'm going to get off all pesticides is to start fresh. Basically, I need to get real dirty to get clean.


Hey CG, they have floramite at my local hydro store, but instead they recommended me to use Mighty Wash from NPK. i used it last week and just noticed tonight that theyre back =(


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## collective gardener (Nov 26, 2011)

Apologies in advance to Kitty and all other AN haters.

The verdict is in. The Connoiseur produces bigger yields than the Sensi Bloom. We're harvesting the Sensi grown buds right now and the difference in bud size is obvious. I'd guess that the Connoiseur yielded 20% more than the Sensi. And, remember, I only used Connoiseur for the first half of the bloom phase on the last crop...then Sensi Bloom to finish them. 

The Grotek plants are slightly shorter and bushier than the AN plants they're against. It's only by 3" on plants 30" tall. I think it's too early to make any judgements or predictions. I keep threatening to buy a new camera, but haven't yet. I promise to get one soon and take pics of the Grotek 2011 Fall Challange. 

I really need to settup a Flora Nove test. All my buddies are now on it full time. When I got better yields from AN over Cutting Edge, all my buddies ran out and got new nutes to try. They were convinced that Cutting Edge was not the best choice, but weren't convinced that AN was the answer. For that matter, neither am I. Commercial W went with the Flora Nova and just slammed em. His yields were insane...better than mine with AN, and also without CO2. Cases and cases of Flora Nova and associated additives were ordered this week from our Hydro Store. I'm getting my shit tomorrow. We'll have Cutting Edge vs. Advanced Nutrients vs. GroTek vs. GH Flora Nova going all at once! I have to get a camera quick.


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## lamabile85 (Nov 27, 2011)

Interesting test. I can't wait to see the pictures and the results.


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## Tony18 (Nov 27, 2011)

Hey CG been folowing this thread since the begining. Never really had any thing to say, just been watching and learning a thing or too. Ok so i've been doing this for bout 8 years now i've always been a die hard GH person started with the 3 part back in the day and stuck with it for a very long time. And always only used there brand of additives, DIAMOND NECTAUR, KOOL BLOOM etc..... But recentely I had some one talk me into trying something new. Cause he was getting insane yields, I've always been happy with a lb per 1000w. I ran the 1 part Flora Nova my last four cycles and it yielded me 1.4lb per 1000w. But now I'm running the Heavy16 two part, my buddie swears by it. If it doesnt get me were the Flora Nova did I will have to switch back. Have you heard any thing about Heavy16?


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## kamie (Nov 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Apologies in advance to Kitty and all other AN haters.
> 
> 
> I really need to settup a Flora Nove test. All my buddies are now on it full time. When I got better yields from AN over Cutting Edge, all my buddies ran out and got new nutes to try. They were convinced that Cutting Edge was not the best choice, but weren't convinced that AN was the answer. For that matter, neither am I. Commercial W went with the Flora Nova and just slammed em. His yields were insane...better than mine with AN, and also without CO2. Cases and cases of Flora Nova and associated additives were ordered this week from our Hydro Store. I'm getting my shit tomorrow. We'll have Cutting Edge vs. Advanced Nutrients vs. GroTek vs. GH Flora Nova going all at once! I have to get a camera quick.


Hey CG, I also want to try this Flora Nova experiment on my bloom phase. My list of what i just picked up. 

Flora Nova Bloom
Floralicious bloom and plus
Florablend
Liquid Koolbloom and Dry Koolbloom

i also picked up a liter of that Final Bloom yellow bottle for $65. The guy at the store was telling me he uses it too with just overdrive and water and has gotten amazing results. as for the floramite dude told me not to tell anyone they carry it lol. but if you want just PM me and i'll give you the name of the spot.

Let me know if i missed something on the list.


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## Jozikins (Nov 28, 2011)

kamie said:


> Hey CG, I also want to try this Flora Nova experiment on my bloom phase. My list of what i just picked up.
> 
> Flora Nova Bloom
> Floralicious bloom and plus
> ...


You are going to rock your fucking garden, Megayielder420 uses a similar mix and he blows it the fuck up in vert growing! Last crop he pulled 5.5 lbs of 2kw, only 2kw!! He would have pulled more if his grow partner didn't kill off a Chem Dawg and nearly killed a Giesel. But that recipe is the shit, I recently have been trying H&G vs Technaflora vs FloraNova, and to be honest they are all doing soooo well. So far, I like H&G for a completely bump free ride with no hitches, no watery tissue, pH perfect when freshly bottled and solid harvests with a great smell, TechnaFlora is really easy to use, totally pH perfect when fresh, and gives massive stem growth, massive leaf sites, lots and lots of bud sites, but it isn't the perfect nutrient, node spacing could be better, however, anyone and I mean ANYONE can have a successful crop of lots and lots and lots of dank sticky buds with Technaflora, I think every beginner should start with this product, tissue is a little watery, but I still love to use it on my micro grows! But Flora Nova is the shit!! It is hard to underfeed, hard to over feed, the stems are fantastic, it goes with any bloom boster, floralicious plus ignites it with incredibly rapid and vigorous growth! I haven't cropped with it recently, I just flipped everything to 12 12 maybe a week or two ago, but so far it is giving me my best results and it is SO FUCKING EASY!! Red or Green, that is it. Boosters are completely optional, I've seen people go start to finish this just A and B with great yields and great product. However, I do recommend boosters that you already like, a lot of people use the kool bloom dry and liquid for obvious reasons, but I've used the Fox Farm trio a while back before I tried H&G, and was getting stellar yields. This time I want to try it with the shooting powder, and if Megayielder420 has luck with it, I'll use the MOAB next time. I also want to use Awesome Blossom by Technaflora with it, I love that product, fantastic bloom tonic.


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## DJKSTICK (Nov 29, 2011)

Hey CG, have you ever tried Fox Farm nutes? If so what did you think.......and if anyone else out there have used them I would love to hear about your experiences. Kitty...I have faith that CG will find another nute line that can give the results that AN has, once he does that would the wedding be back on...lol. And I would like to thank everyone on this thread minus the two or three negative parasites that decided to drop in. Your information has been more valuable to me than you know. Thank You.


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## C.Indica (Dec 1, 2011)

This is something I'm very interested in.
My first fertilizer I used for cannabis was FloraNova Growth..

Definately had much MUCH healthier Veg with the stuff.

I'd love to return to it, if not Jack's Classic food.


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## Fnominon (Dec 1, 2011)

Hey Djkstick, I have run the full fox farm program for about a year and had solid results. Its not necessarily going to give you top yields, but combined with a soil grow you really have to try hard to screw it up. I just finished reading your entire thread CG and have learned a lot from it, thank you. Today is my 3rd year anniversary on Rollitup and this is my first post, I have always been to paranoid to post online, paranoid for the old days I guess, but honestly this thread is way to good to resist participating. 
CG have you tried Avid to get rid of your mites? Is it available in California? I had thryps and spider mites so bad that I was pushed to using it, but in hind site I wish I had used it sooner. The strategy I used was to spray all my veg plants and my plants in the first two weeks of flower with Avid and then I used a product called Safer on the rest of my flowering plants. With just two applications of Avid and regular spraying of the later flowering plants with "Safer" I was able to completely eliminate all pests. Its been months with no treatments what so ever and I have zero signs of any mites or thryps.


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## AndyK (Dec 2, 2011)

Hey CG hows the Op going you haven't posted in a few days?


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## curious2garden (Dec 2, 2011)

AndyK said:


> Hey CG hows the Op going you haven't posted in a few days?


I think I hijacked CG LOL He's trying to extract my head from the door I intentionally slammed it into LOL (figuratively speaking with my grow). Thank you CG. Hey could I try the Flora Nova instead of the AN?


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## sharpshoota (Dec 2, 2011)

Collective G:

I stumbled upon your thread and have been reading it 4 the last few days.

Great job on supplying patients with free meds, thats great to hear. my mom beat cancer a few years back after a 4 year on off battle, and seeing what she went through everyday and overtime with chemo... is painful to watch... Wish TX wasnt such a BS state when it comes to mmj, they just dont tolerate it here... Have lost alot of time and money growing due to this fact but the experience is invaluable.

Thanks a ton for taking the time to share your insight and wisdom. Truly inspirational and a huge motivation to me to get bak up and keep growing... Mad props to ya.. Keep staying a foot ahead of these brainwashed cops


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## DJKSTICK (Dec 3, 2011)

Thank you Fnominon I appreciate the input. Anyone else ever use it. And I just got my first EC meter yesterday and I must say I am learning alot from it. I didn't realise how important one of these things were. Hopefully it will let me hone my soon to come skills....lol. CG have you ever used a aero cloner...(ezcloner)?


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## Fnominon (Dec 3, 2011)

DJKSTICK said:


> Thank you Fnominon I appreciate the input. Anyone else ever use it. And I just got my first EC meter yesterday and I must say I am learning alot from it. I didn't realise how important one of these things were. Hopefully it will let me hone my soon to come skills....lol. CG have you ever used a aero cloner...(ezcloner)?


No problem, make sure you get some calibration solution for your meter. I can't help but wonder if some of the people using really high PPM are actually reading a hundred or two ppm high. I know my truncheon after a few years of service now reads high and so I have to mentally adjust for that.


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## Afka (Dec 4, 2011)

Oh my god I made it to page 205.

Good thread, took a couple days. Hi regulars, I feel like I know you guys. 

So many times where I wanted to chime in, but just had to see how it developped because it had already come and gone 

Peace


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## collective gardener (Dec 9, 2011)

Hey gang. Sorry for the time off. The perpetual harvest has become just that. I feel like we've been trimming for months straight. Another pound or so and there will be nothing more to trim for a month. 

I have tried aero cloners. They work great. If I was in the clone biz I would use them. But, my little 5 dollar trays with a dome work just fine. I prefer to root in rockwool so that I'm all set to plug into a 4" block once rooted. 

On the nure front, the Grotek is doing better than Cutting Edge, but worse than AN. This crop is all Connoiseur+Big Bud+B-52+Botanicare Sweet Raw. There is no doubt the Connoiseur is worth the xtra $$$. The 4 week plants are shaping up to be the best ever. The node spacing is very tight. The Grotek provided a great bud set with tight spacing. But, the AN buds are twice as big at 4 weeks. I'll get some Flora Nova in a few days for a test run. Commercial J has switched both his ops to Flora Nova and is quite pleased. He's also just growing the D-Bub which yields way more than the other 2 Bub phenos we all grow. 

Hollyweed has placed our Pre-98 on the top of its menu. They absolutely LOVE the stuff. This is great to hear from such a reputable dispensary. After getting a sample of our Tahoe x 91 Chemdawg, they're screaming for that, as well. It just goes to show that as long as you have primo genetics, there's still no problem getting rid of excess.


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## socalkushgenetics (Dec 9, 2011)

the feds 5 year sentence has leeway. Props to collective for FIRST consulting with an attorney, something alot of uneducated people dont do and get jammed up


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## collective gardener (Dec 10, 2011)

socalkushgenetics said:


> the feds 5 year sentence has leeway. Props to collective for FIRST consulting with an attorney, something alot of uneducated people dont do and get jammed up


 
My understanding is that IF the feds take the case, and IF there is more than 100 plants, and IF there is a conviction, the judge has no choice. They call it a 5 year "mandatory minimum" for a reason. 

We've got down to well under 100 plants, anyways. Basically, we grow a couple plants per active patient/member.


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## C.Indica (Dec 10, 2011)

So I'm to the point where I'm gonna go buy some new nutes.
I grow in soil, not hydro.
I'm thinking of getting Flora Nova Bloom, and eventually a new bottle of Grow.

In your opinion, how does FloraNova respond to soil grows?


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## Fnominon (Dec 11, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> So I'm to the point where I'm gonna go buy some new nutes.
> I grow in soil, not hydro.
> I'm thinking of getting Flora Nova Bloom, and eventually a new bottle of Grow.
> 
> In your opinion, how does FloraNova respond to soil grows?


In my opinion if your growing with soil take advantage of the organics. In soil you can compensate for loss in production by improvements in quality and flavor which are hard to replicate in hydro medium. I have grown both ways for years and honestly have a hard time picking one method to stick with, I am currently transitioning everything from soil to coir to see if I can get the best of both worlds from that.


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## collective gardener (Dec 11, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> So I'm to the point where I'm gonna go buy some new nutes.
> I grow in soil, not hydro.
> I'm thinking of getting Flora Nova Bloom, and eventually a new bottle of Grow.
> 
> In your opinion, how does FloraNova respond to soil grows?


I wouldn't do it. I'm a fan of either growing hydro/soiless or growing live soil organic...but not both at same time. I would stick to the organic nutes.

Here's a tip for you organic growers: When I used to grow organic I would grow a couple of soiless "pace plants" as well. Just a couple plants in Sunshine #4 and fed with GH nutes. If my soiless Pace Plants were outgrowing the organic plants, I knew I needed to make a change to the organic plants. If the organic were keeping up with the soiless plants, I knew I was doing it right and wouldn't change anything. 

I think soiless is the way to go with Flora Nova or any high end nute system. With real soil there's too much stuff in there you can't control. The soil could have a ton of K in it. When you add even more K with the Flora Nova it locks out the magnesium. I've had that problem time and time again.


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## C.Indica (Dec 11, 2011)

I like the idea of Live Soil Organic, and in the next few years I want to go full on Vegan gardening.
But currently I don't have the means/will to produce my own organic composts/teas.

I wouldn't mind buying organic nutes, but I don't know where to start, andI haven't looked at pricetags for organic nutes.
If they're outrageously more expensive that they need to be, I'll be skeptical at least.. 


(THIS NEW TEXTBOX FUCKING SUCKS ROLLITUP!)


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 11, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> I like the idea of Live Soil Organic, and in the next few years I want to go full on Vegan gardening.
> But currently I don't have the means/will to produce my own organic composts/teas.
> 
> I wouldn't mind buying organic nutes, but I don't know where to start, andI haven't looked at pricetags for organic nutes.
> ...


You can grow much cheaper and easier with organics, once you get things down. The key is mixing a custom soil that contains most of the nutrition that the plant and microbes need to stay happy. Do that and you're golden. If you have things dialed in, and only use bottled products to supplement your soil, you really don't lose any yield vs. hydro. I routinely out-yield my hydro buddies and I'm strictly a dirt guy.


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## psycophreak (Dec 11, 2011)

Fully agree, I have been soil only for years and have had nothing but success...


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## Fnominon (Dec 11, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> You can grow much cheaper and easier with organics, once you get things down. The key is mixing a custom soil that contains most of the nutrition that the plant and microbes need to stay happy. Do that and you're golden. If you have things dialed in, and only use bottled products to supplement your soil, you really don't lose any yield vs. hydro. I routinely out-yield my hydro buddies and I'm strictly a dirt guy.


I totally agree with Wolverine97, start simple with a high quality soil mix like Roots Organics 707 mix which is my favorite. Then mix in 10-25% worm castings and add perlite until you get that the soil loose again. That mix will be so charged with nutrients you could just grow with that alone, however, I would recommend a simple grow formula for veg and a organic flowering program. Keep it simple at first and you will yield much more and higher quality than if you try to get fancy and burn your plants or nuke them with a booster. 
The reason why I believe that most soil guys out perform hydro typically is due to the difficulty to run a hydro set up all the way through flower with out screwing up one of the many factors you gotta keep tabs on. If you know how to control those variable however, I believe you can get quite a bit higher yield from hydro, but probably not as high of quality.


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 12, 2011)

Fnominon said:


> I totally agree with Wolverine97, start simple with a high quality soil mix like Roots Organics 707 mix which is my favorite. Then mix in 10-25% worm castings and add perlite until you get that the soil loose again. That mix will be so charged with nutrients you could just grow with that alone, however, I would recommend a simple grow formula for veg and a organic flowering program. Keep it simple at first and you will yield much more and higher quality than if you try to get fancy and burn your plants or nuke them with a booster.
> The reason why I believe that most soil guys out perform hydro typically is due to the difficulty to run a hydro set up all the way through flower with out screwing up one of the many factors you gotta keep tabs on. If you know how to control those variable however, I believe you can get quite a bit higher yield from hydro, but probably not as high of quality.


IDK man. I average around 1.25 gpw in soil, I don't know any hydro guys who can beat that...


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## collective gardener (Dec 12, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> IDK man. I average around 1.25 gpw in soil, I don't know any hydro guys who can beat that...


Wow...what a broad statement, dude! I have found that strain and canopy shape have much more to do with yield than what they're growing in. I would bet that placing one of your plants in a rockwool block and feeding quality chem nutes would give you a similar yield. I would also say that if I slipped an aero system under your lights and let you grow everything else the same, your yield would go up and timeline come down. This is not to say I'm an aero fan. It's a pain in the ass. BUT, when fine tuned, absolutely nothing can come close. All other things being equal, the aeroponic garden out grows just about anything. I would hasten to say similar yields could be had growing your strain in rockwool or a good ebb n flow garden. 

All that shit being said, your soil skills are much harder to come by than similar hydro skills. In time, live soil organic grows will have a huge market advantage over hydro gardens. For now, no such advantage exists. Well, at least not enough for me to justify the mess. I do know that in time we will have to grow organic to stay in the game. Currently we're playing with the AN organic nutes...adding more of them to the res and removing some of the chem nutes. We're trying to see if there's a liquid organic formula that matches the chem performance. I really don't want to go back to dirt. If I was to, I would go with Wolverine and try to get most of the nutes in with the base soil mix. Top dressings work quite well, too.


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 12, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Wow...what a broad statement, dude! I have found that strain and canopy shape have much more to do with yield than what they're growing in. I would bet that placing one of your plants in a rockwool block and feeding quality chem nutes would give you a similar yield. I would also say that if I slipped an aero system under your lights and let you grow everything else the same, your yield would go up and timeline come down. This is not to say I'm an aero fan. It's a pain in the ass. BUT, when fine tuned, absolutely nothing can come close. All other things being equal, the aeroponic garden out grows just about anything. I would hasten to say similar yields could be had growing your strain in rockwool or a good ebb n flow garden.
> 
> All that shit being said, your soil skills are much harder to come by than similar hydro skills. In time, live soil organic grows will have a huge market advantage over hydro gardens. For now, no such advantage exists. Well, at least not enough for me to justify the mess. I do know that in time we will have to grow organic to stay in the game. Currently we're playing with the AN organic nutes...adding more of them to the res and removing some of the chem nutes. We're trying to see if there's a liquid organic formula that matches the chem performance. I really don't want to go back to dirt. If I was to, I would go with Wolverine and try to get most of the nutes in with the base soil mix. Top dressings work quite well, too.


And just think, I carefully considered that comment prior to pressing the button... I have several friends who run aero, none of them touch my yield per watt of light input. Now, that could be because I'm packing more into the same area, but still...


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## Bird Gymnastics (Dec 12, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Wow...what a broad statement, dude! I have found that strain and canopy shape have much more to do with yield than what they're growing in. I would bet that placing one of your plants in a rockwool block and feeding quality chem nutes would give you a similar yield. I would also say that if I slipped an aero system under your lights and let you grow everything else the same, your yield would go up and timeline come down. This is not to say I'm an aero fan. It's a pain in the ass. BUT, when fine tuned, absolutely nothing can come close. All other things being equal, the aeroponic garden out grows just about anything. I would hasten to say similar yields could be had growing your strain in rockwool or a good ebb n flow garden.
> 
> All that shit being said, your soil skills are much harder to come by than similar hydro skills. In time, live soil organic grows will have a huge market advantage over hydro gardens. For now, no such advantage exists. Well, at least not enough for me to justify the mess. I do know that in time we will have to grow organic to stay in the game. Currently we're playing with the AN organic nutes...adding more of them to the res and removing some of the chem nutes. We're trying to see if there's a liquid organic formula that matches the chem performance. I really don't want to go back to dirt. If I was to, I would go with Wolverine and try to get most of the nutes in with the base soil mix. Top dressings work quite well, too.


The only organic AN nutes I've used have been Iguana Juice and Nirvana. Id have to say that the stuff is pretty impressive. Real tight internodes and great overall growth. Depending on the strain I have been averaging about 6-8 only using those nutes with some added molasses. The only things I mix into my Roots organic soil is worm castings, dolomite lime and some added perlite. Pretty easy if you ask me. On a grow your scale I can imagine trying to do stuff easier but I gotta say the organic taste is pretty obsolete when comparing to other ways of growing. IMO


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## Fnominon (Dec 12, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> IDK man. I average around 1.25 gpw in soil, I don't know any hydro guys who can beat that...


That is incredible yield, I would be interested in knowing the details if your willing to share? What Genetics are you getting that with? What factors do you attribute that large of a yield too?


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 13, 2011)

Fnominon said:


> That is incredible yield, I would be interested in knowing the details if your willing to share? What Genetics are you getting that with? What factors do you attribute that large of a yield too?


This really isn't the thread for that, but I don't mind sharing. Give me a reminder over the weekend and I'll post something up. I don't want to keep derailing CG's thread.


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## Someguy15 (Dec 13, 2011)

CG, grabbed a bottle of the Yellow Bottle Bloom Final at your high regards. Just applied the first dose tonight (hydro, F&D) so we'll see in a few days if it has any noticeable effects. I like that it has minimal pk tho so it's safe to use with PK boosters like Shooting powder or Pk13/14. Wanted to say thanks for the rec and I hope I see something good.


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## collective gardener (Dec 14, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> This really isn't the thread for that, but I don't mind sharing. Give me a reminder over the weekend and I'll post something up. I don't want to keep derailing CG's thread.


Post the info here if you dont mind. I'd like to see it. Obviously, with a yield like that, I wouldn't change a thing. BUT, I would bet that an aero settup in your garden, with everything else staying the same, would icrease your yield even more. Now, I would never do that. You don't see me growing aero. I'm trying to get more organic...the other direction from aero. Plus, I've always believed that behind strain, plants size, density, and canopy shape effect yield much MUCH more than nutrients and what medium is used. I believe this to be why experienced growers can pull much larger yields than noobs. 
Anyways, post your shit. I bought a camera at Cosco yesterday...so I'll be posting some pics, as well. I need to get this thread going again. Too long w/o pics and things get stale.


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 14, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Post the info here if you dont mind. I'd like to see it. Obviously, with a yield like that, I wouldn't change a thing. BUT, I would bet that an aero settup in your garden, with everything else staying the same, would icrease your yield even more. Now, I would never do that. You don't see me growing aero. I'm trying to get more organic...the other direction from aero. Plus, I've always believed that behind strain, plants size, density, and canopy shape effect yield much MUCH more than nutrients and what medium is used. I believe this to be why experienced growers can pull much larger yields than noobs.
> Anyways, post your shit. I bought a camera at Cosco yesterday...so I'll be posting some pics, as well. I need to get this thread going again. Too long w/o pics and things get stale.


Alright CG, you asked for it... it'll be this weekend though, I'm crazy stupid busy lately and only have time to pop in on my short breaks from the mundane. Also, I think you're pretty spot-on about canopy shape, etc having a HUGE effect on final yield. My follow up on this will probably be the longest comment I've ever made, so don't be surprised.

edit: oh, and the finished quality of the stuff I've been putting out the past couple of years is just ungodly good. Uber trichome coverage and they stay healthy til the end.


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## Fnominon (Dec 14, 2011)

Hey CG, I was wondering how your mini-split unit are working out for you? I was thinking about picking up a 3-ton later this winter do you have any advice from your experience?


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## stonestare (Dec 15, 2011)

Where to start where to end? First of all I have spent 12 hours reading this from start to finish and I have never ever in my 14 years of growing have seen, talked, or been able to find a person that will give FULL and complete disclosure about EVERYTHING that they do in there grow. The pot world is exactly like the hi-performance engine market. NOBODY will give you honest answer to where thier research is at because of the time, and money involved in it. Knowledge is the key and you damn well better be up to date on aerodynamics so you can port a cylinder head correctly.

Sir my hats off to you for the disclosure of your grow. I grow outdoors and after a very recent event that has happened to me I have to make a choice either stop growing or move to a state where it is legal. In my last trip to cali I was told about this forum and its a killer.

I have noticed that you are DYING to get your hands on floramite to go nuclear on the lil sunsabitches! Well I got something for you if I may say "my friend"

Floramite 8oz. Bottle. Legal to sell into California. Miticide / Spidercide

http://www.amazon.com/Floramite-Bottle-California-Miticide-Spidercide/dp/B0052NRTZ4


I am researching a biz plan to see what state I will end up in. I have known about mendocino county and that was the first place I went on my first trip to the west coast to se what condtions there are for a commercial grow. I know now that I will not be going there. this is strictly my opinion and I do not want to sway other people for what I am about to say. This is strictly my opinion and not to be taken to heart. Here it goes. I do not like the fact there is a canopy limit, having to buy a $50 zip tie for each plant, having to have my operation completely opened to law enforcement for routine inspections, and the thing that pushed me over the edge was the fact that it is up to the officers to dictate how much your plant can produce. If they think its producing to much bud you have to chop it down. I do not know 100% if the last statement is true but its the way that I took it.

After reading this I think I will be using your present set up as a model for me to grow.I will still have to do my homework, research out every detail before I make a decision. $100K seems to be a good start. I think in reality its going to cost me $180K to $220K because I have no contacts for genatics so I will proboly have to spend the first year buying and growing seeds until I get the mother plant that I want to clone. I know there is going to be problems, dialing in,ect ect so I think its going to take me a year and a half to two years before I am running hard.

Once again thank you for all of your information especially on nutes. I said previous that I grow outdoors.I mix my own soil and use IRONITE inplace of chemical nutes. Ironite is a mineral based product that has urea in it to get the small amount of N into the product. If you want to know more google ironite msds and all the contents and %'s are disclosed. I do not know how much time,frustraion and money you have saved me with the nute info and to be honest when I started to look into nutes I got lost because there is so much out on the market. Now I know to follow this thread and do EXACTLY what you are doing.

Well my buns are killing me from sitting in this chair for 12 hours now after reading this thread, once again THANK YOU SO VERY VERY MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jyermum (Dec 15, 2011)

Shit it's $5 cheaper than I can get it for and I had no idea it was good for Cali.


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## NW medicene (Dec 16, 2011)

wow man im in washington we can only have 15 plants and up to aa pond and a half ... anyways im part a a 3 way collective garden and i started this account today cause i need more real time info and im really impressed with ur op cant wait 2 see the flowering results....


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## collective gardener (Dec 16, 2011)

Fnominon said:


> Hey CG, I was wondering how your mini-split unit are working out for you? I was thinking about picking up a 3-ton later this winter do you have any advice from your experience?


The whole thing got put off till spring again. I was originally going to wait till spring to seal the room, but got all exited seeing Commercial J's CO2 crop. But when I put together the final budget for CO2 gear and HVAC, it was more than I was willing to spend at that time. Right now my biggest atmosphere challange is keeping things warm enough. My clones are taking over 2 weeks now due to low temps. The vented lights in veg were shut down and the Adjustawings fired up to heat up the room. The bloom room is great, though.

Anyways, another post reader suggested getting the 'cold weather package' with whatever split system you get. That turned out to be quite true. Most people would not be running their air in cold weather. But, growers will. Therefore the AC must have a mechanism to slow down the compressor in colder outside temps (cold, as in, under 65f).


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## collective gardener (Dec 16, 2011)

jyermum said:


> Shit it's $5 cheaper than I can get it for and I had no idea it was good for Cali.


That stuff doesn't look at all like the SC. I think I'll stick to the SC that you can get. I KNOW it works. Your PM inbox is full.


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## collective gardener (Dec 16, 2011)

stonestare said:


> Where to start where to end? First of all I have spent 12 hours reading this from start to finish and I have never ever in my 14 years of growing have seen, talked, or been able to find a person that will give FULL and complete disclosure about EVERYTHING that they do in there grow. The pot world is exactly like the hi-performance engine market. NOBODY will give you honest answer to where thier research is at because of the time, and money involved in it. Knowledge is the key and you damn well better be up to date on aerodynamics so you can port a cylinder head correctly.
> 
> Sir my hats off to you for the disclosure of your grow. I grow outdoors and after a very recent event that has happened to me I have to make a choice either stop growing or move to a state where it is legal. In my last trip to cali I was told about this forum and its a killer.
> 
> ...



The Mendo laws are a double edged sword. My wife would rather us be up there. She likes everything out in the open, with no worries of the local law busting the door down. There's something to be said for that. I'm not a fan of being told how much I can grow. Although, I wouldn't have to change my op much to comply with the Mendo rules. I think the county is doing a good thing. Many of the Mendo growers have alot of respect for the Sheriff up there. The Fed's, of course, hate it. 

Well, you're realistic on investment costs. Dr Fever gave me a bunch of shit for spending what I did on my op. He says it would have cost him under 20 grand. Guess he likes those Ebay light systems. When you get ready for clones, give me a call. I can probably hook you up with a guy who sells cuts of elite genetics for a premium. With what he charges, you'll be confident not too many other people are buying them. I have paid some sick amounts of $$$ for genetics many many times. That's because I have stopped and started growing a dozen times in my life. Well, maybe not that many..,.but a bunch. Everytime I start up, I need good cuts. This time I was super lucky to have Commercial J as friend. In the past, I've had to nut up and convince other growers to sell me a tray of cuts for some insane price. In the end, it has ALWAYS been worth it to pay out the ass for cuts, and be 100% positive that what you're growing will sell like hot cakes. Otherwise, it's a long and unsure trail of hell and misery.


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## collective gardener (Dec 16, 2011)

NW medicene said:


> wow man im in washington we can only have 15 plants and up to aa pond and a half ... anyways im part a a 3 way collective garden and i started this account today cause i need more real time info and im really impressed with ur op cant wait 2 see the flowering results....


Only? Most of the country would kill for those laws.


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## caesar23 (Dec 16, 2011)

Amen to that.


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## stonestare (Dec 16, 2011)

CG did you order that Floramite? If you want someone to ship you a bottle we can work something out. Just send me a message and we can work out the details.

Thanks for the clone offer when I am ready i will let you know. Its proboly going to be 6 months to a year before I move . I am about to drop a major lawsuit and need to be here until I know what the deal is with that. When I was in cali on my last trip I noticed the clones were dirt cheap and read you got mites from a clone YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So I thought going from seed would be better. I know you will stand behind them and I do not care about price I know its not cheap but someone has done all the work and should be paid a healthly amount.

Oh and I forgot to add this but have you thought about doing volunteer work with aids and cancer patients? That maybe a way to get around doctors then you could feel a person out.


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## Buddy232 (Dec 16, 2011)

If someone is looking to try something radical... I'm still waiting for the day somebody attempts my large scale concept "recirculating 'dwc' with individual bubble rings". I have a feeling though it's going to take a special person to understand it, catch on and actually go for it.

You'd probably need $500 or more, a couple weeks, an imagination. 

Subbed to this... I thought I already was!


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 16, 2011)

Buddy232 said:


> If someone is looking to try something radical... I'm still waiting for the day somebody attempts my large scale concept "recirculating 'dwc' with individual bubble rings". I have a feeling though it's going to take a special person to understand it, catch on and actually go for it.
> 
> You'd probably need $500 or more, a couple weeks, an imagination.
> 
> Subbed to this... I thought I already was!


There are a couple of those systems out there for purchase now. Check out the Undercurrent system, and there's another one that I can't remember...


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## Buddy232 (Dec 16, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> There are a couple of those systems out there for purchase now. Check out the Undercurrent system, and there's another one that I can't remember...


I've seen them.  And that's usually the opposition I'm faced with the few times I've given the slightest hint to my system. It's okay though, a lot of great ideas never took off over night.

My concept is large scale. Really large, in fact as large as you'd like because your the person building it. You folks would know much better than me... but does there an exsisting under "under current", or any other similar commercial systerm that could support the mentioned 20K watt grow? I personally doubt it. The reason is the money is all in the supplies, not the concept. You can only upsell things to a certain point before customers don't respond. On the other hand you have to make money, and that includes shipping all that bulky crap and unless your direct selling, marking it down to whole salers. 

You can see how it works okay for small systems, but even then $500-$1000 is insane for someone to bore some holes in plastic for you and give you a kit of parts. But for the person like this for a 20K watt garden, it's impossible to sell them that system, you'd be charging them $10,000. For about the price of one of those little "rdwc" I could teach this person to plumb up maybe 100 sites and space them out as far as needed, all with a large amount of air, and all doing it as effiecently as possible. Would it take work, definently. But it would be equally or better than a commercial system and you'd get something they can't deliver.


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## Someguy15 (Dec 16, 2011)

Buddy232 said:


> I've seen them.  And that's usually the opposition I'm faced with the few times I've given the slightest hint to my system. It's okay though, a lot of great ideas never took off over night.
> 
> My concept is large scale. Really large, in fact as large as you'd like because your the person building it. You folks would know much better than me... but does there an exsisting under "under current", or any other similar commercial systerm that could support the mentioned 20K watt grow? I personally doubt it. The reason is the money is all in the supplies, not the concept. You can only upsell things to a certain point before customers don't respond. On the other hand you have to make money, and that includes shipping all that bulky crap and unless your direct selling, marking it down to whole salers.
> 
> You can see how it works okay for small systems, but even then $500-$1000 is insane for someone to bore some holes in plastic for you and give you a kit of parts. But for the person like this for a 20K watt garden, it's impossible to sell them that system, you'd be charging them $10,000. For about the price of one of those little "rdwc" I could teach this person to plumb up maybe 100 sites and space them out as far as needed, all with a large amount of air, and all doing it as effiecently as possible. Would it take work, definently. But it would be equally or better than a commercial system and you'd get something they can't deliver.


You should read this thread http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f158/under-current-here-we-go-13962/ and no, it doesn't cost 10,000 for the undercurrent itself...lights and everything else well that's a diff story lol

pg35 has some nice pics


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## farmerjoe420 (Dec 16, 2011)

InsaneMJ said:


> Yeah, it was the first time I've gone outside my cirlce of friends to get a different strain. Either they wouldn't give up the GDP or they didn't have it. Needless to say I'll just go with 200 seeds of GDP to get what I'm looking for lol.
> -I.MJ



dude where can you get GDP seeds??


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## davidgrimm (Dec 17, 2011)

farmerjoe420 said:


> dude where can you get GDP seeds??



I thought real GDP was "clone only"???


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 17, 2011)

davidgrimm said:


> I thought real GDP was "clone only"???


It is.......


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## Fnominon (Dec 17, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> The whole thing got put off till spring again. I was originally going to wait till spring to seal the room, but got all exited seeing Commercial J's CO2 crop. But when I put together the final budget for CO2 gear and HVAC, it was more than I was willing to spend at that time. Right now my biggest atmosphere challange is keeping things warm enough. My clones are taking over 2 weeks now due to low temps. The vented lights in veg were shut down and the Adjustawings fired up to heat up the room. The bloom room is great, though.
> 
> Anyways, another post reader suggested getting the 'cold weather package' with whatever split system you get. That turned out to be quite true. Most people would not be running their air in cold weather. But, growers will. Therefore the AC must have a mechanism to slow down the compressor in colder outside temps (cold, as in, under 65f).


Thats great advice on the cold weather package, its those little details people don't see when they are trying to predict startup costs. You know what you need is some nice indoor propaine heaters so you can flood your rooms with CO2 while heating. Just make sure to buy some Carbon Monoxide dectectors to be safe. I have been running a sealed room for a few years now and I would say its totally worth it, however, definately a challenge. In the past it seemed to increase my yield, but with my current pheno of White Widow I am running its more quality improvements than yield, I would say at least a doubling in trichome production. I have been adding lights and every time you do that in a controlled environment it seems to throw everything out of whack, its a real challenge for sure, but this is the time of the year to be playing with it while we have the cold outside air in our favor. 

This year I ducted all my lights into the house so I am enjoying temps in 70s with out turning on the heat, which up in the NW Washington it has been getting really cold.


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## Fnominon (Dec 17, 2011)

Edit: This was suppose to be a reply to Buddy232 post I failed to quote his original text.

I own the waterfarm hydroponic system that works off these principles. You have a reservoir controller unit which is plumbed to the rest of the buckets and air pumps peculate the nutrients out of the reservoir bottom part of the bucket up into a top bucket with the hydrotons. The system works great really good when its working, but the maintenance is a nightmare. The more active components you have in the system the more places for things to fail. I have ran all hydro systems but the bubble stone buckets and an aerosystem. What I have found is that the more complicated your growing system the more points of failure you have. Like with the water farms I have had hoses kink drying out buckets, drain ports clog with roots, air tubes some how get salt build up and clog, drip rings clog, air pumps fail, reservoir temps get hot leading to root rot and thats just getting started. If you want to have repeated success I would recommend keeping your system as simple and fool proof as possible. When I ran aero I had growth like no other system, but never was I able to get a harvest all the way through with out some disaster dramatically reducing my yields making it a waste of time and effort. I personally like drain to waste systems or zero run off which is what I personally run today. 

Wolverine97 you asked me to remind you this weekend for a boil down on your system, I am really excited to hear how you have 1.25 gpw. I only get half that typically so any advice your willing to share would be greatly appreciated.


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 17, 2011)

Yep, will do. Just watching the Michigan bball game now, when it's over I'll post it up.


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 17, 2011)

Ok, it's halftime so here goes: I'll keep the explanation fairly simple, but if you have any specific questions or want clarification just ask. I don't want this to turn into a complete thread derailment though, so keep that in mind please. 

I run a custom soil mix, strictly organic (though I'm not hung up on OMRI cert., natural is good enough for me). I'm going to keep this post focused on one room, my old room since I still maintain that space and think it's more applicable to average home growers. I'll start with the room particulars, then get into the equipment I use, ventilation, environment, then I'll get into the soil, containers etc. Finally I'll cover the strains I run. Again, any questions feel free to ask. I just ask that it doesn't get too tedious and off topic. 

My overall old space is 5'x15'x7', which is divided into three areas; 5x5 budroom, 7.5x5 "lung room", and 2x5 cloning/veg area. I built 2x4 partition walls to separate the spaces and used panda film to light proof them. The bud room has a zipper door, the veg is done with a roll up velcro door. Both grow spaces are vented into the lung room, which is vented through a carbon filter into the basement area. Temps stay in the high 70's to low 80's with lights on, humidity varies with season but is controlled with a dehumidifier when necessary. I try to keep it around 50-55%. 

I supplement co2 with regulator and solenoid valve on a short range repeat timer, and keep levels around 800-1000ppm. This allows me to work with the temps in the low 80's in summer months. I do waste a lot of co2 with this setup, but I don't care. 

For veg, I run the lights 18/6 and generally veg them for around a month. Starting in 5" square pots and moving to 1 gal bags. From there they're transplanted into 5 gal smart pots about a week prior to flowering, at which time they're also pruned or supercropped depending on strain and plant structure and my general mood at the time. In this space, I would have to take my clones during the second week of flower for the timing to work (I've since changed that, but needed more space to do so). They'd have to acclimate in the budroom for a week after final transplant prior to 12/12. Not ideal, but it works. 

Once acclimated, they are generally ready to start training to the SCROG (6" hort trellis). The first few weeks of flower are a lot of work, you have to stay on top of the training or you get canopy issues. No bueno. I just try to maintain an very even canopy, with no wasted space. Ok, let me back up...

The budroom is 5x5 as I said, in it I run only 1-1kw hortilux in a CAP XXXtreme6 reflector. This reflector spreads the light very well, allowing me to use only the 1kw in the 5x5 (which CG will propably harrumph about...). It is on the light side as far as watts per foot go, but it works for me. I think this is what really allows me to get such high gpw #'s. I generally run 9 plants in that space, and train them heavily. Maintaining the plants is kind of a bitch in that room though, you have to be flexible just to hand water. I lolipop the plants a few days after I take clones. I don't want any growth that doesn't get light, because it will die and lead to rot. And larf, we do not like larf. 

As I said before, I run a custom soil mix in 5 gal smart pots. My base for the soil mix is now 40/40/10/10 coco coir, peat, EWC, forest humus, I then cut that by 25% with #4 perlite and add my amendment from there. This mix requires a lot of watering during peak flower, I mean daily. The soil is true living organic soil, so you need to maintain some moisture and not let it go bone dry. I supplement the soil with General Organics and a few other booster products as needed. I harvest heavy, healthy plants packed with glands. All of my trim is still green (usually). 

That's about it in a nutshell, but there's a lot of subtle things that go along with it, but I could type for hours about that.... and I don't have that kind of time.


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## mellokitty (Dec 17, 2011)

*You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Wolverine97 again.*


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 17, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> *You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Wolverine97 again.*


Wolverine also accepts kittylicks instead of reputation...


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## mellokitty (Dec 17, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Wolverine also accepts kittylicks instead of reputation...


oh, do i ever have a surprise up my sleeve for _you_, big boy..... 

oh oops, sorry cg 
/derail

(btw, don't mind the salty water between the saucers, it's only my tears......)


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 17, 2011)

..........


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## Fnominon (Dec 17, 2011)

Thank you for taking the time to write out some your grow style in such great detail. I have one of those some hoods for my 1k Veg light and love it! So it sounds like the canopy control is the key to getting that high of a yield. I am interested in what genetics your running as well if you like to share. I just finished up a harvest today of strain we call Shipwreck "Northern Lights x Train Wreck" and some White Widow plants, unfortunately they are both on the low yield side so no where near your gpw. I like your setup and I did add reputation; sorry Kitty I am really new to the forum even though my profile says a few years I have never participated up until a couple weeks ago, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I am also sorry if I am derailing the thread, like I said I am a foreigner to this and do not know the customs and rules on the forum.


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 17, 2011)

You're good, man. CG is a cool cat he won't mind too much as long as it doesn't get out of hand. Someone needs to keep this thread moving *nudge nudge*

Strains are as follows: I'll forget a few, probably
DT (supposed local cross that I suspect is actually Apple)
Casey Jones
ECSD
Larry OG
Northern Lights
Apollo 13
Jedi Kush
Super Lemon Haze
Blueberry (DJ Short)
Sensi Star ogre pheno
a pure Jamaican sativa
Vanilla Kush
Destroyer from Cannabiogen (soon to be discarded, probably)

I think that's it...


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## C.Indica (Dec 17, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> You're good, man. CG is a cool cat he won't mind too much as long as it doesn't get out of hand. Someone needs to keep this thread moving *nudge nudge*
> 
> Strains are as follows: I'll forget a few, probably
> DT (supposed local cross that I suspect is actually Apple)
> ...


Casre to enlighten me on yourpure Jamaican?


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 17, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> Casre to enlighten me on yourpure Jamaican?


Sure, what do you mean? It's a pure sativa that I got in JA, grows long fairly thin running buds with pink/purple calyx's. It has a unique thick oil like flavor with a hint of skunkiness and floral notes. Very energetic high. Not devastatingly potent, but very nice stuff.


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## C.Indica (Dec 17, 2011)

Got any images ?


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## InsaneMJ (Dec 17, 2011)

Man, living in california may be the dream at times. But with all these medical shops giving you bunk strains theres no telling exactly what you got your hands on. Best bet these days is to have close friends who are willing to share their strain. Or ordering seeds, but then you still have to go threw a big batch just to find the particular pheno your interested in. 
I don't think I'd mind paying top dollar for clones as long as the genetics are what they say they are, even then you won't know till you finish it yourself. I know I've gone threw at least 5 different "bubba kush's" and out of all of them only 1 was even descent, but the harvest wasn't nothing spectactular compared to my white widow and Orange Kush at the time. Good genetics are hard to come by. 
-I.MJ


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 17, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> Got any images ?


I don't do pics, sorry man.


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## C.Indica (Dec 17, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I don't do pics, sorry man.


Much understood.
I'm looking for some strong Sativa.
Gonna order Sub's JTR for 2012.


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 18, 2011)

C.Indica said:


> Much understood.
> I'm looking for some strong Sativa.
> Gonna order Sub's JTR for 2012.


It's good stuff, a little racy and can be a paranoid buzz but it's very good (not running that atm, but I've got a couple packs waiting). Both Vortex and Apollo 13 are great...


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## C.Indica (Dec 18, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> It's good stuff, a little racy and can be a paranoid buzz but it's very good (not running that atm, but I've got a couple packs waiting). Both Vortex and Apollo 13 are great...


If I get into hashmaking I'll grabsome A13.
And I'm interested in Pandora's "no-ceiling high"

Yo CG, how should Iget started on live soil organic?
I'm like a headless chicken, I know you've dabbledbefore.


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## Fnominon (Dec 18, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> You're good, man. CG is a cool cat he won't mind too much as long as it doesn't get out of hand. Someone needs to keep this thread moving *nudge nudge*
> 
> Strains are as follows: I'll forget a few, probably
> DT (supposed local cross that I suspect is actually Apple)
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to list all your strains out. About a year ago I had an emergency shut down which cost me all my genetics and so I started back with seeds with the exception of a White Widow clone that gave me spider mites and thryps. Its really difficult up here in NW Washington because we have a 45 plant limit with 3 recs and I have met a few people now who have been raided and given a felony called a count correction. Limited to a total of 45 plants makes high grading a nightmare and I am starting everything from seeds these days since I was able to get arid of my bug problem. My current line up is White Widow and Shipwreck "NL x Trainwreck" in flower and I have Wonder Woman Skunk, Super Bud, Super Lemon Haze, Bubba Kush "greenhouse seeds" and Holy Grail 69 in Veg. I have also just put my first run of Super Bud, Holy Grail 69, and Super Lemon Haze into flower yesterday so we will see how they do. 
I am really interested in how you like growing Blueberry? My Girlfriend is really pushing me to grow it, but it looked like it required an extended flower time which I would like to avoid if for no better reason than 10 weeks would throw all my timing off on my perpetual harvest. I am also really interested in where you found your Casey Jones genetics? I would really like to give that one a try.


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 18, 2011)

Fnominon said:


> Thank you for taking the time to list all your strains out. About a year ago I had an emergency shut down which cost me all my genetics and so I started back with seeds with the exception of a White Widow clone that gave me spider mites and thryps. Its really difficult up here in NW Washington because we have a 45 plant limit with 3 recs and I have met a few people now who have been raided and given a felony called a count correction. Limited to a total of 45 plants makes high grading a nightmare and I am starting everything from seeds these days since I was able to get arid of my bug problem. My current line up is White Widow and Shipwreck "NL x Trainwreck" in flower and I have Wonder Woman Skunk, Super Bud, Super Lemon Haze, Bubba Kush "greenhouse seeds" and Holy Grail 69 in Veg. I have also just put my first run of Super Bud, Holy Grail 69, and Super Lemon Haze into flower yesterday so we will see how they do.
> I am really interested in how you like growing Blueberry? My Girlfriend is really pushing me to grow it, but it looked like it required an extended flower time which I would like to avoid if for no better reason than 10 weeks would throw all my timing off on my perpetual harvest. I am also really interested in where you found your Casey Jones genetics? I would really like to give that one a try.


Yeah we have pretty tight limits too. I should've added that I don't actually run all of those at any given time. Usually around 6 at a time, the rest are kept as mothers in the meantime. Starting from seed is tough to keep within the limits, but ya gotta do it. I try to keep everything completely within the law, occasionally one gets by me but overall I'm pretty good about being well below my numbers. 

I really like the Blueberry, but what I've found with mine is that it doesn't produce "A" grade buds throughout the plant. Mainly just the top colas, so I end up just growing that one for my stash and give the B grade away. I've kept it around for a while because I really like the buzz and the smell/flavor combo is awesome. It (mine anyhow) grows rock hard buds, but can be very finicky if you don't keep her just so. I still mess with her though, so yeah...

Casey came from a friend, a very unhealthy cut that I nearly tossed. Very glad I didn't, it's my favorite smoke. It's around out here if you know where to look. Oh, and I've pretty much resigned myself to 10 week cycles, it just works better. I even have a couple that go 12...


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## jyermum (Dec 18, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> That stuff doesn't look at all like the SC. I think I'll stick to the SC that you can get. I KNOW it works. Your PM inbox is full.


Just dumped some messages so pm should be fine. Glad it worked out


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## Fnominon (Dec 19, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Yeah we have pretty tight limits too. I should've added that I don't actually run all of those at any given time. Usually around 6 at a time, the rest are kept as mothers in the meantime. Starting from seed is tough to keep within the limits, but ya gotta do it. I try to keep everything completely within the law, occasionally one gets by me but overall I'm pretty good about being well below my numbers.
> 
> I really like the Blueberry, but what I've found with mine is that it doesn't produce "A" grade buds throughout the plant. Mainly just the top colas, so I end up just growing that one for my stash and give the B grade away. I've kept it around for a while because I really like the buzz and the smell/flavor combo is awesome. It (mine anyhow) grows rock hard buds, but can be very finicky if you don't keep her just so. I still mess with her though, so yeah...
> 
> Casey came from a friend, a very unhealthy cut that I nearly tossed. Very glad I didn't, it's my favorite smoke. It's around out here if you know where to look. Oh, and I've pretty much resigned myself to 10 week cycles, it just works better. I even have a couple that go 12...


I think I might try out the Blueberry if I get a proven cut, but I don't think I will go through the seed process. I know what you mean with the 10 week cycles, but right now I have a pheno of shipwreck that tends to go hermi if I let it go into week 9, the Widow likes it I got one plant I left just to see what it looks like in weak 9, but she is between two rows not under a light right now. I would be willing to try starting a casey jones from seeds does anyone out there have a recommend source? I tried searching a few of the banks I have bought through in the past, but they either didn't have them or were sold out.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Dec 19, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Ok, it's halftime so here goes: I'll keep the explanation fairly simple, but if you have any specific questions or want clarification just ask. I don't want this to turn into a complete thread derailment though, so keep that in mind please.
> 
> I run a custom soil mix, strictly organic (though I'm not hung up on OMRI cert., natural is good enough for me). I'm going to keep this post focused on one room, my old room since I still maintain that space and think it's more applicable to average home growers. I'll start with the room particulars, then get into the equipment I use, ventilation, environment, then I'll get into the soil, containers etc. Finally I'll cover the strains I run. Again, any questions feel free to ask. I just ask that it doesn't get too tedious and off topic.
> 
> ...


You stated you used "booster" products. Being organic do you mind elaborating. My buddy Audi have been having a debate on what it is.


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## collective gardener (Dec 19, 2011)

Here's some long overdue pics. Nothing too bitchen:



I really don't like this new uploader. As you can see, we have some duplicates. Very sorry.

The Tahoe x Chemdawgs are the ones in tomatoe cages. The plant reminds me of an imbred royal family member. It's been cross bred so many times, it's now some freak that would never survive in nature. Without support the entire plant will collapse at week 6. 

The D-Bub, which are the tall healthy plants in the background of pic 6 are the real heros. There's 25 plants on an 8x8 tray that are just rocking the house. Every plant is without blemish. On the last crop 3 plants yields 18ozs! Granted, they were big...but still. They take about 9.5 weeks to finish up. The old Bubs take about 7.5 weeks. 

The 3 duplicate pics are of a flushed plant just harvested. This is the regular Pre-98 Bubster. It will yield around 2 ozs. This plant has gone 15 days with no nutrients whatsoever. 

Wolverine, Thanks for the rundown on your system. I'm not going to give you much shit about the watts/sq ft. Obviously it works for you. I plan on upgrading my reflectors to some Mag XXX size monsters. The more grows I see running those the more I'm convinced they are the way to go. My friend uses a tiny budget reflector and his canopy has a super hot spot in the middle, and poor light on the outside edges. My reflectors are "middle of the road". Now that the basics are in place and working, it's time to start in on the details. 

On the Undercurrent system: It's great, but not for me. I believe that if one wanted to use that type of system on a large commercial grow, it would be best to runs several isolated systems. Two 1000 watt lights per system would be nice. While it would be more efficient to run one huge system, it's just not safe. If something goes wrong...bla bla bla...you all know what I mean.

I'll take some better pics now that I have a new camera. We'll get this thing going again.


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 19, 2011)

I should also add that I use Super Spreader's as well. they help eliminate the hot spot. The downside is penetration, there isn't a whole lot. It's great for spreading the light around, but if your canopy is deeper than 12-18" you may be better off going with Blockbusters (that's what I use in my new room).


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## Bird Gymnastics (Dec 19, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Here's some long overdue pics. Nothing too bitchen:
> 
> View attachment 1943573View attachment 1943574View attachment 1943574View attachment 1943574View attachment 1943586View attachment 1943588View attachment 1943589
> 
> ...


Perfect flush on that beauty. Temps running a little cool in there or is that just the pheno turning purple? Also I must of not been paying attention but what are the benefits of running rock wool on top of bigger rock wool? And last but not least ( sorry for so many questions) how often do you water? From my experience, rock wool stays pretty wet compared to a full soil medium... please enlighhten me. I love learning from anyone willing to share.  

On another note, they all look amazing! Looks like the perpetual is running almost perfect this time of year!


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## hellraizer30 (Dec 19, 2011)

Looking good cg love that pre 98 bubster


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## kamie (Dec 20, 2011)

Hey cg,
Where did you get your drying shed at? All you did was cut a 6 in. Opening for for the max fan connected to the carbon filter? Do you have an osculating fan inside it too?


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## TheLastWood (Dec 20, 2011)

Yeah conniosseur genetics has a casey jones s1. They also have grandaddy purps s1 fyi.


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## Fnominon (Dec 20, 2011)

Looks really good CG, It amazes me how large those plants got with a root zone the size of those rockwool blocks. 

Thank you for the links TheLastWood I probably will pick up some of those soon.


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## AndyK (Dec 20, 2011)

You can buy GDP seeds but that doesn't mean they are the original plant. Here in cali every single dispensary has the exact same cut of gdp.


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## InsaneMJ (Dec 21, 2011)

I just ordered some Tahoe OG seeds I hope the pheno comes out similar.


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## collective gardener (Dec 21, 2011)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> Perfect flush on that beauty. Temps running a little cool in there or is that just the pheno turning purple? Also I must of not been paying attention but what are the benefits of running rock wool on top of bigger rock wool? And last but not least ( sorry for so many questions) how often do you water? From my experience, rock wool stays pretty wet compared to a full soil medium... please enlighhten me. I love learning from anyone willing to share.
> 
> On another note, they all look amazing! Looks like the perpetual is running almost perfect this time of year!


As the mag get flushed out the Pre 98 leaves tend a little purple. Temps are no lower than 60 at night and hit 78 everyday.
One rockwool block on top another is what Grodan suggests. It's really quite easy. We start with 1" rockwool plugs for rooting cuts. Once rooted the plug goes into a 4" block. I like to keep em in the 4" block until watering is required more than once every 24hrs...then go on top of a 6" Hugo Block. Depending on how big the plant is when it goes into bloom I may or may not put the 6" block into a 2 gallon pot on top of a mix og 50/50 rrockwool croutons and #4 perlte.

Yes...rockwool can be a very wet medium. It's that property that alows a 44" bushy plant to be grown in a 6" block. A Hugo block holds just short of 1/2 gallon of water. The key is to shake excess water from block when the plants are small. I like to water every 24hrs. Sometimes I'll skip every other day when plants are small and aren't using alot of water. Basically, I always water every 24 hrs and size the medium to accomodate that watering schedule. 

Hope this answers your questions. I really like growing in rockwool. It can be a tricky medium, though. Soaking new rockwool for 24hrs "cures" it and allows it to hold more water than an "un-cured" block. Sometimes I do not cure on purpose. A drier block is better when the plants are small and not sucking up the nutes. As the block gets watered day after day it becomes "cured" and will hold the large amounts of water needed for when the plant gets big.


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## collective gardener (Dec 21, 2011)

Fnominon said:


> I think I might try out the Blueberry if I get a proven cut, but I don't think I will go through the seed process. I know what you mean with the 10 week cycles, but right now I have a pheno of shipwreck that tends to go hermi if I let it go into week 9, the Widow likes it I got one plant I left just to see what it looks like in weak 9, but she is between two rows not under a light right now. I would be willing to try starting a casey jones from seeds does anyone out there have a recommend source? I tried searching a few of the banks I have bought through in the past, but they either didn't have them or were sold out.



As you're searching for Casey Jones you may want to try searching for KC Jones, as well. I've seen it spelled both ways.


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## collective gardener (Dec 21, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> I should also add that I use Super Spreader's as well. they help eliminate the hot spot. The downside is penetration, there isn't a whole lot. It's great for spreading the light around, but if your canopy is deeper than 12-18" you may be better off going with Blockbusters (that's what I use in my new room).


I like my BlockBusters, but would go with either the XXXL's or Raptors if I did it again. Most of my commercial buddies are using 600's in massive reflectors that are damn near touching eachother. That seems too spread the light as even as can be.


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## collective gardener (Dec 21, 2011)

kamie said:


> Hey cg,
> Where did you get your drying shed at? All you did was cut a 6 in. Opening for for the max fan connected to the carbon filter? Do you have an osculating fan inside it too?


It's a Rubermaid Tool Shed purchased at Home Depot. There's a 70 pint dehumidifier inside as well as the carbon filtered exhaust fan. BTW, a drying shed is a must for consistant results. It's hard enough to dry and cure right with consistant drying temps and humidity. It's damn near impossible otherwise. We have it down to a science now. It takes 50 hrs at 75 F and 30%-40% RH. That will get it dry enough to go into paper bags. The smaller stuff goes directly into plastic. We then play with opening and closing the bags for another week or so till we get it right.


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## collective gardener (Dec 21, 2011)

AndyK said:


> You can buy GDP seeds but that doesn't mean they are the original plant. Here in cali every single dispensary has the exact same cut of gdp.


I don't know about that.


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## AndyK (Dec 21, 2011)

That was a little general I'll admit, but I know six different outdoor growers running GDP all picking it up clone only from 6 different sources and its the exact same plant, bud structure, density, taste, even the color, granted all the growers are within about 150 miles of each other so environmental factors are all very similar. True GDP is clone only, but GDP is just purple urkle x big bud. So it wouldn't be very hard to make seeds of it and call it GDP............ And I also just wanted to say thanks CG I read this thread every single day and love it, you have given us an insight into the world of commercial growing that we could get nowhere else. And I think what you're doing for the underprivileged patients is great. Our counter-culture needs more people like you.


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## ale420 (Dec 21, 2011)

so i didnt want to read througha ll 212 pages but have you harvested all of those plants yet?/


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## Bird Gymnastics (Dec 21, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> As the mag get flushed out the Pre 98 leaves tend a little purple. Temps are no lower than 60 at night and hit 78 everyday.
> One rockwool block on top another is what Grodan suggests. It's really quite easy. We start with 1" rockwool plugs for rooting cuts. Once rooted the plug goes into a 4" block. I like to keep em in the 4" block until watering is required more than once every 24hrs...then go on top of a 6" Hugo Block. Depending on how big the plant is when it goes into bloom I may or may not put the 6" block into a 2 gallon pot on top of a mix og 50/50 rrockwool croutons and #4 perlte.
> 
> Yes...rockwool can be a very wet medium. It's that property that alows a 44" bushy plant to be grown in a 6" block. A Hugo block holds just short of 1/2 gallon of water. The key is to shake excess water from block when the plants are small. I like to water every 24hrs. Sometimes I'll skip every other day when plants are small and aren't using alot of water. Basically, I always water every 24 hrs and size the medium to accomodate that watering schedule.
> ...



You answered it perfectly. Love the knowledge you share. I m currently moving to something bigger and knowing you have a huge system I wanted to see the benefits to compare and contrast with what I am doing now. I am a soil grower using roots in 7 gallons with added mixes. I find I'm watering about every day or so as well. Thanks for the input again. Sorry for being a noobie it's all the questions ha ha


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## collective gardener (Dec 22, 2011)

AndyK said:


> That was a little general I'll admit, but I know six different outdoor growers running GDP all picking it up clone only from 6 different sources and its the exact same plant, bud structure, density, taste, even the color, granted all the growers are within about 150 miles of each other so environmental factors are all very similar. True GDP is clone only, but GDP is just purple urkle x big bud. So it wouldn't be very hard to make seeds of it and call it GDP............ And I also just wanted to say thanks CG I read this thread every single day and love it, you have given us an insight into the world of commercial growing that we could get nowhere else. And I think what you're doing for the underprivileged patients is great. Our counter-culture needs more people like you.



Our "counter culture" hasn't really been too counter for a while. There's a butt-load of people who get high. If the real truth about how many people use weed ever got out, it would cease to be counter culture and take its rightfull place as just a part of our culture. Or how bout the 70%+ of Americans that just don't give a rats ass about who's getting high on what. The country doesn't care, I don't care, you don't care...just who are these people that are so hell bent on stopping people from getting high?


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## collective gardener (Dec 22, 2011)

ale420 said:


> so i didnt want to read througha ll 212 pages but have you harvested all of those plants yet?/


If you just looked at the date on the earlier pics I think you'd have your answer. I'm glad I answered this before some of the less patient folks chimed in. LMFAO.


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## Roflicer (Dec 22, 2011)

I cant read through over 200 pages, but holy fuck someone loaned you 60,000 dollars to grow weed?


Also, starting on what page do you show the harvest?


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## collective gardener (Dec 22, 2011)

Roflicer said:


> I cant read through over 200 pages, but holy fuck someone loaned you 60,000 dollars to grow weed?
> 
> 
> Also, starting on what page do you show the harvest?



Closer to 80k when all was and and done. It's really not that much when you figure out how much all of our members save. Dispensary retail prices are around $350/oz. Our reimbursement changes with our running costs, but runs around $200/oz. Part of that cost is the loan payment. 

When the City of Oakland was offering the 4 large scale commercial growing permits, they were charging 1 million per permit. The grows being considered were in the 20,000 plant range. Add the cost of building a grow that big to the growing permit and you're looking at several million bucks initial cash layout plus several months of operating costs. Investors were lined up for an chance to loan the money for such an operation. If growing commercially became Federally legal, investment capitol would be no problem. Anyone who could prove commercial growing experience and put together a halfway decent business plan could attract investors easily. I don't believe there to be any limit on the amount of capitol that could be raised. 

As to what page the harvest starts, you'll just have to read. I promise you it took me alot more time to write it than it will take you to read it. Man up.


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## SupaM (Dec 22, 2011)

Started with the Yellow Bottle this week! Thanks for the tip again !
ATB!


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## Someguy15 (Dec 22, 2011)

SupaM said:


> Started with the Yellow Bottle this week! Thanks for the tip again !
> ATB!


Stuff seems to work pretty awesome in my limited experience with it. Get your supports ready, stuff will start falling over lol


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## SupaM (Dec 22, 2011)

Someguy15 said:


> Stuff seems to work pretty awesome in my limited experience with it. Get your supports ready, stuff will start falling over lol


Thanks, that would be a great problem!!


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## collective gardener (Dec 22, 2011)

Someguy15 said:


> Stuff seems to work pretty awesome in my limited experience with it. Get your supports ready, stuff will start falling over lol



I noticed the same thing. I've never seen weight put on so quick as with the Yellow Bottle Final. I've been playing with the timing a bit. If you apply too early certain strains will foxtail on you. The best time seems to be in concert with the flush. Any earlier and the plant can actually start growing new pistils...not good for bag appeal. Everyone I've talked to that has used as directed on bottle has encountered serious foxtailing.


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## SupaM (Dec 22, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I noticed the same thing. I've never seen weight put on so quick as with the Yellow Bottle Final. I've been playing with the timing a bit. If you apply too early certain strains will foxtail on you. The best time seems to be in concert with the flush. Any earlier and the plant can actually start growing new pistils...not good for bag appeal. Everyone I've talked to that has used as directed on bottle has encountered serious foxtailing.


I look forward to the weight...lol! I'm gonna go grab extra stakes also!


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## collective gardener (Dec 22, 2011)

Made ice water hash today for several hours. Managed to use up about 1/4 of the trim I've been saving. This is my second attempt at the ice water thing. My first attempt I did it exactly how Matt Rize shows on his You Tube video. One of our members very experienced in grading hash said it was as good as hash gets. We are using a 90 mesh to catch the cooking grade and 25 mesh for the full melt. I get 2 grams of cooking grade for every 1 gram of full melt. We're saving all the cooking grade for when my wife starts up the edibles collective. She wants to cook only with hash to ensure consistant doses. The full melt goes out to members. The last batch was gone within hours of being dry. 

Question: All the water that is tossed making ice water hash has got to be loaded with nutrients. Has anyone considered using that water to make tea? We use alfalfa extract...why not weed extract? The water is a dark tea color. I didn't think to test PPM or PH. I think we'll save it next time and try feeding back to a couple plants. Anyone have an opinion on this???


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## stonestare (Dec 22, 2011)

CG I got a question for. I am planning on getting a tent that is 4X4 to start indoor growing and is the Hortilux dual bulb worth it. I will proboly do a couple grows of auto flowering so I can get things stabilized. I like the short time for growth since I will be starting from seed.2 weeks of veg 6 weeks of flowering. I plan on using a xxl reflector and a 1000 watt light. I know its overkill but I dont want to buy another light set up down the road and it will be air cooled.


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 22, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Made ice water hash today for several hours. Managed to use up about 1/4 of the trim I've been saving. This is my second attempt at the ice water thing. My first attempt I did it exactly how Matt Rize shows on his You Tube video. One of our members very experienced in grading hash said it was as good as hash gets. We are using a 90 mesh to catch the cooking grade and 25 mesh for the full melt. I get 2 grams of cooking grade for every 1 gram of full melt. We're saving all the cooking grade for when my wife starts up the edibles collective. She wants to cook only with hash to ensure consistant doses. The full melt goes out to members. The last batch was gone within hours of being dry.
> 
> 
> Question: All the water that is tossed making ice water hash has got to be loaded with nutrients. Has anyone considered using that water to make tea? We use alfalfa extract...why not weed extract? The water is a dark tea color. I didn't think to test PPM or PH. I think we'll save it next time and try feeding back to a couple plants. Anyone have an opinion on this???


Your 25 is the full melt, and 90 is cooking grade? You sure you didn't type that backwards?


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## kamie (Dec 22, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I noticed the same thing. I've never seen weight put on so quick as with the Yellow Bottle Final. I've been playing with the timing a bit. If you apply too early certain strains will foxtail on you. The best time seems to be in concert with the flush. Any earlier and the plant can actually start growing new pistils...not good for bag appeal. Everyone I've talked to that has used as directed on bottle has encountered serious foxtailing.


i just used it on my last one. no foxtail. i used 4ml per gal. of the final and 4 ml per gal of over drive on weeks 6 and 7 with nothing else mixed in. flushed with tap water week 8. it came out really good in my opinion but then again its my first time growing.


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## Someguy15 (Dec 23, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Your 25 is the full melt, and 90 is cooking grade? You sure you didn't type that backwards?


I'd say it really depends on strain. I have found that the indica strains have slightly larger trichs, so the 73-90 range seems to be the best...but the sativas have the smaller trichs so the 25 seems to be the full melt bag.


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## Chadness (Dec 23, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Closer to 80k when all was and and done. It's really not that much when you figure out how much all of our members save. Dispensary retail prices are around $350/oz. Our reimbursement changes with our running costs, but runs around $200/oz. Part of that cost is the loan payment.
> 
> When the City of Oakland was offering the 4 large scale commercial growing permits, they were charging 1 million per permit. The grows being considered were in the 20,000 plant range. Add the cost of building a grow that big to the growing permit and you're looking at several million bucks initial cash layout plus several months of operating costs. Investors were lined up for an chance to loan the money for such an operation. If growing commercially became Federally legal, investment capitol would be no problem. Anyone who could prove commercial growing experience and put together a halfway decent business plan could attract investors easily. I don't believe there to be any limit on the amount of capitol that could be raised.
> 
> As to what page the harvest starts, you'll just have to read. I promise you it took me alot more time to write it than it will take you to read it. Man up.


Amen CG. I am a long time admirer and a small grower in the land down under. Even to grow 8 plants has cost a couple of grand.
Love the inspiration. Thanks.

PS. i have read all 214 pages.


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 23, 2011)

Someguy15 said:


> I'd say it really depends on strain. I have found that the indica strains have slightly larger trichs, so the 73-90 range seems to be the best...but the sativas have the smaller trichs so the 25 seems to be the full melt bag.


Hmmm... I honestly don't know, I don't ever make bubble hash.


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## mrcokeandcrown (Dec 23, 2011)

Why not just do dry ice hash? Was faster an the end product is already
Dry. I've heard people say its more potent but I hardly notice a difference 
Besides in color


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## Someguy15 (Dec 23, 2011)

mrcokeandcrown said:


> Why not just do dry ice hash? Was faster an the end product is already
> Dry. I've heard people say its more potent but I hardly notice a difference
> Besides in color


Dry ice hash gets too much contaminant in it. While your shaking it all around in the bucket the screen is acting sorta like sand paper... you end up with micro chips of leaf (you have to make dry ice hash with DRY trim) in the hash. You can't see it with your eyes, aside from a slight green hue. But that's why it typically flames up and yaddda yaddda... Unless your doing supercritical fluid extraction with CO2 your making grade c or d hash at best with the bucket and dry ice method. O and don't bother pricing it. The machine u need is about 50g for that lol

http://www.edenlabs.org/supercritical_extraction.html


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## mellokitty (Dec 23, 2011)

cg, i was under the impression that you were a kief-hound? change of heart? <3


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## TheLastWood (Dec 23, 2011)

Bho! Bho! Bho!


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## treeharvest (Dec 23, 2011)

Hello all & Marry xmas!! This is my first post on here but far from my first grow. I would like to say thank you to cg,mello kitty and wolverine for the great read. I just made it to page 214 and I loved every min of it! CG you are great! You helped me alot with my grow and with how to deal with ppl., kitty you make me lol alot. and wolverine you're grows are where I would like mine to be! Rock on guys!


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## collective gardener (Dec 24, 2011)

StoneStare, I have never used a dual bulb. But, I have used MH and HPS in the bloom room together with very good results. I think you should give it a try. Please let us know how it works out and send some pics. 

Wolverine, 90 is the cooking and 25 is the full melt. One of our members is a big hash guy. He came over and tested both batches. The 90 mesh tended to catch fire a little, while the 25 mesh just melted. Also, I watched the Matt Rize You Tube vid on making water hash. He uses similar sizes for similar results. If you have never seen the vid, watch it. His hash sells for top dollar at the dispensary that sells it. I am NOT a hash guy. I have to rely on others to tell me what the fuck is going on. 

Chadness, good to hear from an Aussie! Hey, how much does killer weed sell for there? 

Kitty, Someguy, and Cokeandcrown; I do still make a little dry ice kief for myself. Yes, it is much easier to make. Yes, I WAY prefer smoking it to water hash. *BUT*, the members all prefer ice water hash, and the dispensaries have been requesting some water hash made from the Bubba trim. I do agree that there is probably more contamination in the dry ice hash. But, I also think that the dry ice kief tastes much fuller and gets you WAY more fucked up. It's pretty much the only thing that I won't smoke anywhere but home. The last time I took a big ass vapor hit of that shit was my birthday at the grow op. I was so fucked up I couldn't drive, and ended up stuck alone at the grow, unable to drive myself home. Last night I took a HUGE hit of the water hash full melt. I even used the hash bowl and glass wand in my Pure Glass bong. I got pretty fucked up...but no where near what the kief does. 

Once my wife starts the edibles collective, I'll probably have to use all concentrates to supply her. At that point, I'll just make dry ice hash with the trash mesh (220). I've done it before. It makes a butt load of kief very fast. The quality is actually good enough to smoke, but it's really great for cooking. Using this kief we were able to make 2 batches of cookies on 2 seperate occassions with the exact same potency. All you weed chefs out there know that proper dosing is the key to edibles. This becomes very true in a commercial edible sittuation. I just don't think you could use trim and get consistant results. 

Treeharvests, welcome aboard. Thanks for all the nice words for me and the crew. Also, thanks for reading the whole thing.


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## mellokitty (Dec 24, 2011)

merry all-that-jazz, hubby#2! xoxo
omg, i hate that too-fucked-up feeling. i start feeling all feeble-minded and shit. 

as you may remember, i'm a bigger fan of water hash myself.... and incidentally, i've recently started to think that using hash for medibles is the way to go too. to that end, i put a microplane on the commerce-mas list this year.


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## Chadness (Dec 24, 2011)

Heya CG Weed sells for between $350 and $400 an oz regardless of strain. We are on about parity with the USD at the moment.


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## stonestare (Dec 24, 2011)

That sounds about what you get in the city, I live in the midle of the US and hear a ounce of mexican garbage goes for 120 an ounce, my killer well lets say that I am making a killing. I am trying to go legal and its is a bitch LOL. I am not going to make the same but atleast I will not have the po po kicking my door in again! The funny thing is they shredded everything in my house and they didnt find a roach.

CG I will deffinatly order that bulb and see how it goes I just got to wait a little bit I got alot of hot irons and I just do not have the time to start in yet. I think I got it figured everything out. I have tried to go back through this post and find out what ballast you are using and have not been able to find it, could you tell me what you are using. I have a question its is about fans. Since I will be using a 4X4X6 foot Secret Jardin tent will a 8" fan (Sun Leaves) with out a speed controler move such a high volume of air that the tents atmosphere will not cool down.The tent will be a total of 96sq feet and the fan will push 750 cfm and the carbon filter is rated at 810 cfm. Will my exchange rate if I done I done the math right it would take 5 minutes to exchange all of the air. Will that be too fast of a rate? I was planing on 8" duct so I can hook up multipul reflectors later down the road. I am trying to plan this out so I dont have to buy a new reflector and ducting down the road.

I will be using blocks like you are using, I would have to ship a pallet of Fox Farms for it to be worth the shipping cost plus 20 bucks a bag I think its a little to high. The blocks proboly cost $10 per bucket that I can deal with. Do you use the rockwool solution that they sell to soak the blocks or do you use your own recipe? I have been looking at greners to buy everything.

I knew you were using AN nutes as a test. Have you completed a run with them yet?I was not planning on using nutes but since I will be using the blocks to save money I will have to use nutes and to be honest I dont know jack about them. I have gown outdoors and I used IRONITE for fertilizer. It is a mineral based product and it will make for some really deep green leaves since it has iron in it. Its cheap $18 a bag at lowes or home depo and it works better in my opinion than other fertilizers that you can get at a chain store.The ratio I think is 1-0-1

Once again thanks


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## Wolverine97 (Dec 24, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> StoneStare, I have never used a dual bulb. But, I have used MH and HPS in the bloom room together with very good results. I think you should give it a try. Please let us know how it works out and send some pics.
> 
> Wolverine, 90 is the cooking and 25 is the full melt. One of our members is a big hash guy. He came over and tested both batches. The 90 mesh tended to catch fire a little, while the 25 mesh just melted. Also, I watched the Matt Rize You Tube vid on making water hash. He uses similar sizes for similar results. If you have never seen the vid, watch it. His hash sells for top dollar at the dispensary that sells it. I am NOT a hash guy. I have to rely on others to tell me what the fuck is going on.
> 
> ...


Wow, that's crazy to me because it's just the opposite of what I've always read. I've watched his video too, but I guess I just got it backwards myself. I remembered (thought so anyway) him saying the 25 caught flame and they hypothesized that it was because the smaller heads contained more volatile terpenes. Guess I need to pay better attention, or lay off the reefer prior to... Merry Christmas guys, you're all in my thoughts (some more than others).


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## stonestare (Dec 24, 2011)

I watched that clip and the question I have about Ice is how much of the trichs are stuck to the ice itself? Is it possible to do the ice side of it in a 5 gallon bucket then put everything through the screen bag? 

I have some 120 line silk screen nailed to a 2X4 box that I do all my trimming on top of it. When I am done for the day I take a Bondo scraper and gently rub everything back and forth a couple times to collect kief from trimming. You can get it at most T shirt shops.


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## MrEDuck (Dec 24, 2011)

Merry Christmas everyone.
And to the guy talking about putting a 750cfm fan in a 4x4x6 tent your math is wrong. You'd be turning it over almost every five seconds. 4x4x6=96sq ft. To exchange that every five minutes we divide that number by five 96 cu ft/5min=19.2cfm. A little 4" 100cfm fan will exchange slightly faster than once a minute.


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## stonestare (Dec 24, 2011)

Thanks so I proboly need to get a controler then to slow it down?


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## collective gardener (Dec 24, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> merry all-that-jazz, hubby#2! xoxo
> omg, i hate that too-fucked-up feeling. i start feeling all feeble-minded and shit.
> 
> as you may remember, i'm a bigger fan of water hash myself.... and incidentally, i've recently started to think that using hash for medibles is the way to go too. to that end, i put a microplane on the commerce-mas list this year.


What be a microplane? 

Merry Christmas to you, Kitty, and your family, as well.


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## collective gardener (Dec 24, 2011)

stonestare said:


> That sounds about what you get in the city, I live in the midle of the US and hear a ounce of mexican garbage goes for 120 an ounce, my killer well lets say that I am making a killing. I am trying to go legal and its is a bitch LOL. I am not going to make the same but atleast I will not have the po po kicking my door in again! The funny thing is they shredded everything in my house and they didnt find a roach.
> 
> CG I will deffinatly order that bulb and see how it goes I just got to wait a little bit I got alot of hot irons and I just do not have the time to start in yet. I think I got it figured everything out. I have tried to go back through this post and find out what ballast you are using and have not been able to find it, could you tell me what you are using. I have a question its is about fans. Since I will be using a 4X4X6 foot Secret Jardin tent will a 8" fan (Sun Leaves) with out a speed controler move such a high volume of air that the tents atmosphere will not cool down.The tent will be a total of 96sq feet and the fan will push 750 cfm and the carbon filter is rated at 810 cfm. Will my exchange rate if I done I done the math right it would take 5 minutes to exchange all of the air. Will that be too fast of a rate? I was planing on 8" duct so I can hook up multipul reflectors later down the road. I am trying to plan this out so I dont have to buy a new reflector and ducting down the road.
> 
> ...


I soak my blocks in nutrient solution. I have completed a couple runs with AN and have been very pleased. We ran a test with the Grotek line, as well. The Grotek outperformed the Cutting Edge, but wasn't even close to the AN. In fact, I stopped the test at 4 weeks and just went to AN. It was that obvious. Bummer, cause I like the Grotek guys.

On air circulation. Just keep in mind the faster you exchange the air, the more the tent interior will be like the air that is coming into it. So, if the intake air is 78f and 50% RH, there would be no such thing as too much air flow. But, if the intake air was 65f, you may want to slow the fan down to allow some heating. It's really best to vent the lights and the tent with 2 seperate fans. This allows better atmosphere control, and sets you up for a sealed room in the future.


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## kamie (Dec 25, 2011)

Hey Cg,

i think about 50 pages back you talked about commercial J using 1k lights and dimming it to 750. I wanted to know if you have tried that? does he do that just to save electricity and to lower heating? also does he dim it to 750 from beginning of 12/12 all the way to the end? I run with 4 1k magnum xxxl's as well and deciding to try dimming them as well.


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## Desr (Dec 25, 2011)

well i just read through all 216 pages. it took me days. but it was well worth it. good job cg. youre an inspiration to us all.


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## stonestare (Dec 25, 2011)

Thanks for the input, I am going to try and be running in 2 months I just have a hurdle to get over in Jan, then I will be able to start it up hopefully in feb. The under temp should not be an issue it will be inside and I keep my home at 72. My goal is to start reading what I can find on nutes. Being a gorilla grower has alot of disadvantges but I have had to grow that way. I proboly need to get some books also. Before I start I want to try and get s much info as I can. I know there is a ton on this thread so I will be reading it over several more times.


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## collective gardener (Dec 26, 2011)

These 2 pics show most of the bloom room. Pic on the left is "tray 1", pic on the right is "center area" and "tray 2". Each area is lit by 4 - 1000 watt lights. There are 2 - 600 watt lights just out of frame on the right of second pic. 

 This is the D-Bub pheno at 4 weeks. The 3 test plants we grew of this last month yielded 18 ozs together. They were a tad taller than this plant, which is one of 25 we have growing this run. Not only is it a great yielding plant, it's also super high quality and has perfect bag appeal. The plant does take around 9.5 weeks to finish, but the increase in yield more than makes up for the added time. I'll be dedicating most of the effort towards this strain. Did I mention that it's super hardy? Much of its vigor has to do with the fact that it was a seed less than a year ago, and our old Bubba hasn't been a seed since Moby Dick was minnow.

Here's a 6.5 week Pre-98 Bubba. As you can see, most of the fan leaves have been removed by now. Removing the interior large fan leaves throughout veg creates the little monster you see here. 

Here's a 6 week Tahoe x ChemDawg. This little plant was not topped...a mistake. If you look at the 5 topped Tahoes in the foreground of the "center area" you'll see how much bigger they are than this little fucker. I have 9 plants like this that take up a 3x4 area. This is classic OG: leggy, whispy, and frail. Much of the "OG" out there has been crossed with more hardy strains to make growing easier and increase yield. Without the tomato cage this plant will collapse under the weight of its tops. I don't think any pure OG would survive anywhere in the wild. 

The fruit of our labor. This is the Pre 98...dries, cured, and ready for our members.


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## hellraizer30 (Dec 26, 2011)

Looking great cg, and from what i can see your members will be happy


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## stonestare (Dec 26, 2011)

Looking killer wish I was there LOL. I was searching around for seeds and I found the first strain of northern lights, I dont know if it is or not but that is what the claim was. I also found a strain called ice it has trichs on it that it looks like mold becuase its so covered with crystals. It maybe a good strain to make hash with.View attachment 1956068 there is a pic of it man that looks like kief heaven


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## hellraizer30 (Dec 26, 2011)

Hey cg i know you use a large ceiling ac unit but in those pics i see what i think is a ac unit? My question is how well
Dothose smallunits work. And theventing for it how can you scubb the air being vented from it?


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## Bird Gymnastics (Dec 26, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 1955785View attachment 1955790 These 2 pics show most of the bloom room. Pic on the left is "tray 1", pic on the right is "center area" and "tray 2". Each area is lit by 4 - 1000 watt lights. There are 2 - 600 watt lights just out of frame on the right of second pic.
> 
> View attachment 1955797 This is the D-Bub pheno at 4 weeks. The 3 test plants we grew of this last month yielded 18 ozs together. They were a tad taller than this plant, which is one of 25 we have growing this run. Not only is it a great yielding plant, it's also super high quality and has perfect bag appeal. The plant does take around 9.5 weeks to finish, but the increase in yield more than makes up for the added time. I'll be dedicating most of the effort towards this strain. Did I mention that it's super hardy? Much of its vigor has to do with the fact that it was a seed less than a year ago, and our old Bubba hasn't been a seed since Moby Dick was minnow.
> 
> ...


Looking amazing as always CG! I had a question for you, has cutting those bigger fan leaves throughout veg affected your overall quality? I have heard different opinions and personally I have never noticed a huge difference except for the difference in yield. Just curious as what your thoughts are.


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## collective gardener (Dec 26, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> Hey cg i know you use a large ceiling ac unit but in those pics i see what i think is a ac unit? My question is how well
> Dothose smallunits work. And theventing for it how can you scubb the air being vented from it?


The portables were the first AC's we installed. One is a single and one is a dual duct. Neither is filtered. They exhaust into the main warehouse. The exhaust from the main warehouse to outside is carbon filtered. I don't need to run ductless roof mount AC during winter. The 12,000 BTU portables keep up with the heat easily until June or so.

The real prob I have right now is cold. Installed a CO2 generator to help heat things up. It's installed in the veg room and is controlled by a thermostat in bloom room. The air flow goes from warehouse to veg room to bloom room. I'm sure the actual CO2 increase in minimal (200ppm?), but I noticed some pretty good growth increases the last few days. I may be from the heat...or both. I trashed about 25 clones today that hadn't rooted after 3 weeks. About 50 made it...thank god. I have no doubt it was the cold. Even with heat mats, the cubes were just too cold for solid root growth. Of course, the D-Bubs all rooted. That plant is so bad ass. It was the original bubs that had trouble. Poor old girl has just been around too long. I took new cuts today and they were all D-Bub and Tahoe. I'm going to run 75% D-Bub and 25% Tahoe for a while...see how that works.


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## collective gardener (Dec 26, 2011)

stonestare said:


> Looking killer wish I was there LOL. I was searching around for seeds and I found the first strain of northern lights, I dont know if it is or not but that is what the claim was. I also found a strain called ice it has trichs on it that it looks like mold becuase its so covered with crystals. It maybe a good strain to make hash with.View attachment 1956068 there is a pic of it man that looks like kief heaven


Let us know how that NL turns out. A dispensary gave me some Atomic Northern Lights for Christmas. I had mentioned that NL is my old fav. Anyways, it wasn't that good. I have a feeling it wasn't real Dr Atomic NL. Kitty said his shit was pretty good and she knows her weed. Just another grower putting a cool name on some bag seed.


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## stonestare (Dec 27, 2011)

Well my plans have changed and I will get a 5X5 tent so I can put 16 5 gallon buckets in it and have a 1 foot wide path around the buckets. I am going to do auto's and going to get the original blueberry its blue bud,carmelicious,ice,and lsd.That will give me 2 full runs to get used to the blocks.Now if feb will get here I can start to grow. I will try that nothern lights when I get through the auto's


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## collective gardener (Dec 27, 2011)

stonestare said:


> Well my plans have changed and I will get a 5X5 tent so I can put 16 5 gallon buckets in it and have a 1 foot wide path around the buckets. I am going to do auto's and going to get the original blueberry its blue bud,carmelicious,ice,and lsd.That will give me 2 full runs to get used to the blocks.Now if feb will get here I can start to grow. I will try that nothern lights when I get through the auto's



If you look at our "middle area" in the bloom room you will see that wee use 5 gal buckets for drainage where we have no drainage tray. The 6" Hugo Block is placed on top of some loose rockwool and perlite in a 2 gallon container. Another 2 gallon container, upsidedown, is placed inside a 5 gallon bucket to support the plant well above the drainage water. We have a suction pump connected to a 3/4" hose to suck the waste water from the buckets. 

With 16 plants under 1 light you probably won't need the loose fill under the Hugo Block. In fact, I would steer away from that settup on smaller plants. The Hugo Blocks should be plenty big enough for that sized plant. One of the problems with rockwool is that it hold so much water. It is important to size the medium correctly. Of course, until you grow some plants, you have no idea how much medium you'll need. I do not water the blocks until they are very lightweight. The rockwool MUST cycle through from very wet and heavy to quite light. Properly sized and perlited medium will go through this cycle in 24 hrs. I like always water every 24 hrs and adjust the amount of rockwool to facilitate that watering schedule. The beauty of rockwool is it provides optimum moisture anywhere between 10% wet all the way to around 80% wet. However, between 80% and 100% is a little too wet. Often I will shake the water out of freshly watered blocks when dealing with smaller plants to get them under 80% saturated faster. Larger plants use the excess water so fast that this isn't needed. Plants will not wilt in rockwool until there is no water left at all in the block. At that point it is so lightweight you could pick up the whole plant and block with a leaf blade without breaking it. Of the hundreds of plants we've grown in this collective, I have only seen 2 plants wilt in rockwool. Both were mothers WAY too big for the block they were in.


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## collective gardener (Dec 27, 2011)

There's alot of bad info out there on drying and curing weed. In fact, no other aspect of growing is so contested. Which is odd because it's really not all that hard. I know we've touched on how we dry, but I don't know if we ever layed out the whole system. If I run out of time I may do this in stages:


What is drying? What is curing?:

You'll get a bunch of answers to this. I can only layout my understanding. I define dry as evenly dry throughout the entire bud. That's it. 

Curing is what happen when that evenly dried bud is properly stored for a length of time. I have found very little difference between a properly dried bud 1 week old, and the same bud 3 weeks old. However, buds stored for a couple months takes on some new properties. I find it smoother to smoke. The color also gets a little browner/yellower. That's it.

Very few commercial indoor growers perform a true "cure". To do so would entail way too much product on hand. Furthermore, few collectives can afford to have the cash flow behind 2 months. It's bad enough that it takes several months to grow the shit. 3 more months of curing would just asdd insult to injury. Properly dried buds are WAY good enough for 99% of the smokers out there. We'll focus on the drying aspect.

The Drying Shack:
We have a dring shack. It's a 3x7 Rubbermaid tool shed. Inside we have a dehumidifier and a filtered exhaust. There is no temp control. I adjust the RH depending on temp. At 80f I like 50% RH, at 70F I like 40%, and at 60F I like 30%. It is very important to dry in a semi controlled environment. If you can't build a dedicated shed, dry in the grow room. The atmosphere is perfect. A tent or large cardboard box inside the grow room will do fine. It's just to keep the light off the drying buds. A small exhaust fan in the box/tent keeps the atmosphere inside the tent the same as outside. Wires pulled across the tent/box/shed allow coat hangers to be hung.

The Trim:
We trim when the buds are fresh. I like to leave the buds on the branch when I trim. This protects the buds from excess handling. The intial trim is the last trim for us. We call this "trimming for sale". The buds are trimmed as good as we can reasonably get the first time around. While there will be a final quality check before distribution, every effort is made to get the buds perfect the first time around. I like to work with branches from 10" to 20" long. 

Initial Drying:
We do not put buds into drying shack as we trim. We hang them on the "holding wire" until the end of the trimming day, and place the entire day's worth of trimming inside the room at once. This ensure the same time period of drying for each branch. The date and time are noted.
We dry for 60-72 hrs. When the buds feel crispy on the outside, they're ready for the next step. If you wait until the stems snap (as many people say), the buds will be WAY too dry. This step really requires some experience. While there is some leeway, removing from the shack at the right time will ensure success. The buds should feel too dry on the outside, but when ripped apart they should feel too wet on the inside. Another way to test is to see if the smallest buds (the tiny ones too small to sell) can be knocked off the stem by hand. 


Final Drying:

I'll get this on my next post


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## kamie (Dec 27, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> There's alot of bad info out there on drying and curing weed. In fact, no other aspect of growing is so contested. Which is odd because it's really not all that hard. I know we've touched on how we dry, but I don't know if we ever layed out the whole system. If I run out of time I may do this in stages:
> 
> 
> What is drying? What is curing?:
> ...


Thanks for that CG. i just finished my first run a week ago. i was drying in the grow room and decided i should have a separate dry room so that i can move the veg plants into bloom room. so i ordered a grow tent with a carbon filter and inline fan. i ended up not needing it because it dried to the point where most of the buds cracked that was what i was told to do. but luckily i thought it was too dry on the outside so i turkey bagged everything. it looks great so far. ive gotten alot of great feedback from people. next round i'm gonna make sure i get it right this time. also CG not sure if you read my post about commercial j's lighting method. i'd really appreciate it if i get your thoughts on it. i run all magnum xxxl's as well


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## collective gardener (Dec 27, 2011)

When the buds are ready to come out of the shack and off the stem, the real tricky part starts. This is where you can really fuck things up. Your best weapon now is the paper bag. While it is possible to go right into a turkey bag, it's playing with fire. Most people think the buds are drier than they are. Going into a turkey bag too early can cause a moldy smell in just 24 hrs that will NEVER totally go away. I have ruined POUNDS before doing just this. 

We like to remove the semi dried buds from the stem and go into paper bags. If you have alot, fill the bags about 1/3 full. Roll up the bag right down to the top of the buds. Let stand for 24 hrs.

After 24 hrs open the bags. The buds should feel much wetter than when they went in. This is the moisture from the bud's center wicking into the outside of the buds. Depending on just HOW wet they feel, you have 2 options. #1 dump the buds into a wide tray and place them back into the drying shcak for an 1-3 hrs. #2 Place the open bag into the drying shack and stir up the buds every 30 minutes or so. #2 is the safest method and should be used if you're not sure what to do. After this the outside of the buds should feel dry again. Roll the bag up and wait another 24hrs.

After 24 hrs remove a bud and break it. If it still tears, repeat step 2. If there is ANY snap to it, you're ready for the turkey bag. If you have any doubt, repeat step 2.

Once in the turkey bag the buds may feel very wet when removed. Ignore this. The real test is to break the buds and feel/listen for that distinct snap...not a tear. After the first 24hrs in the turkey bag I like to remove the buds and place them on a tray in the shack for about 30 minutes. You'll find that every day you do this it will take less and less time for the outside of the buds to feel dry again. 

From when my buds are removed from the stems until they are 90% ready only takes me about 3-4 days. Then, I simply open the turkey bag everyday, stir the buds, and re-seal. If the buds are to be stored long term, this process should be done for a week or so. If you are working with pounds to be given to a dispensary, they should be delivered slightly wet. You MUST keep in mind that they will be opening and closing the bag several times. If the buds are delivered to them perfectly dry, they will be petrified by the time they are halfway into the pound. This, of course depends on how long they take to unload the whole LB. But, I assume it will be over a week. 

This concept is very simple. You're just trying to evenly dry the buds without overdrying or placing in plastic too early. There is no recovery from either mistake. The beauty of the paper bag is that I have never developed any moldy smell in a paper bag. AND, it is very hard to overdry buds that are in paper bags and are only removed once per day. 

Commercial J, who deals with 20+ pounds at a time uses a very objective technique. Once the buds go into the turkey bags, he places a relative humidity gauge in every plastic bag. That's right...he has 30 gauges. I think he uses what's called a calliber 3? It's a meter for cigar boxes. I have used a digital temp RH gauge, as well. After 24 hrs in the bag, he checks the rh. 50% is dry enough for long term storage, 55% - 60% for delivery to a dispensary. If you use this technique it is important to seal the bag while in an environment with an RH under 50%. Otherwise, you'll always read a high RH. 

That's it. I'm sure there are folks that do it very different. My method is based on my experience and the experience of many commercial growers much more experienced than myself. 

One of the things I've heard people do is to do the initial dry slow. This is wrong! It's a waste of time and risks mold. I have dried buds in am 80F room with an RH of 30% before. It takes less than 48hrs before going into the paper bags, but the end result is just fine.


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## kamie (Dec 27, 2011)

Hey Cg, 

Have you started the Flora Nova test yet? i just started mine. heres my line up for bloom phase.

Flora Nova Bloom
Floralicious Plus
Flora Blend
Diamond Nectar
Both Kool Bloom
Bud Blood first week only
Hygrozyme
Bud Candy
Liquid Carboload
budswell
Final Bloom


Vs.

3 part GH
Diamond Nectar
Bud blood first week only
Big Bud
budswell
Hygrozyme
Bud Candy
Liquid Carboload
Overdrive
FINAL Bloom

I'm using too many nutes huh? my friend told me to use those. what do you think i should keep out? on the last run i was able to get 3.25 oz per plant. it was my first time growing as well.


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## collective gardener (Dec 27, 2011)

kamie said:


> Hey Cg,
> 
> Have you started the Flora Nova test yet? i just started mine. heres my line up for bloom phase.
> 
> ...


It's certainly inclusive.


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## collective gardener (Dec 27, 2011)

kamie said:


> Thanks for that CG. i just finished my first run a week ago. i was drying in the grow room and decided i should have a separate dry room so that i can move the veg plants into bloom room. so i ordered a grow tent with a carbon filter and inline fan. i ended up not needing it because it dried to the point where most of the buds cracked that was what i was told to do. but luckily i thought it was too dry on the outside so i turkey bagged everything. it looks great so far. ive gotten alot of great feedback from people. next round i'm gonna make sure i get it right this time. also CG not sure if you read my post about commercial j's lighting method. i'd really appreciate it if i get your thoughts on it. i run all magnum xxxl's as well


He either runs 1000's dimmed to 750, 48" on center; or 600's, 36"on center.


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## hellraizer30 (Dec 27, 2011)

I have tryed nova and most of those sups and theres alot of waisted $ there! You will not get what you can from 
Gh as you can from AN! Now im not invoking you buy all an shit either! Stay simple any of there base line and 
Big bud and b52 also overdrive and i promiss you will rock the house!

For veg i use lucas but the AN lucas version!

For bloom i go 
Grow 11ml per gal.
Micro 11ml per gal
Bloom 11ml per gal

Sups
Bigbud 2ml per gal
B52. 2ml per gal
Overdrive 2ml per gal
Sensi cal b 1ml per gal

This seems like alot but its not
And nothing gh makes will come
Close to it, this feeding chart is
One ive put together and is a shure
Fire method= zero burn or def.


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## kamie (Dec 28, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> It's certainly inclusive.


yea.. =/ i need to figure out a way to sell these nutes. maybe i should sell it to my friend who persuaded me this was what i needed lol. o well i'm still learning.


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## collective gardener (Dec 28, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> I have tryed nova and most of those sups and theres alot of waisted $ there! You will not get what you can from
> Gh as you can from AN! Now im not invoking you buy all an shit either! Stay simple any of there base line and
> Big bud and b52 also overdrive and i promiss you will rock the house!
> 
> ...


Those mixes look very similar to my first go around with AN. Only I used Cutting Edge 3 Part (also in a 1/1/1 porportion) every other day. I originally used your AN bloom booster choice and have stuck with it. If I could pick only one base and one additive, I'd use Connoiseur base and B-52. The B-52 is Humic Acid and Seaweed (the 2 additives Simon of Grotek told me would be his first choice if allowed only 2 additives). Since the B-52 gets used in veg too, all that would really be needed is to add Sensi Grow for a complete nute line start to finish. 

People can say what they want about AN. Hell, I avoided their products for years cause I thought they were all hype. They do have their fair share of hype, but the products work great and are very easy to use. The only thing I'm having some trouble working out is exactly when to stop the Big Bud and start the Overdrive. I really don't like basing these decisions on what week in bloom the plant is in. My plants finishing time can vary up to 2 full weeks depending on size, room temps (just a few very hot days can knock a week off my finishing times). I prefer to determine stages by looking at the pistils. Are new pistils still growing? Have any started to turn brown? What percentage is brown? Last run I used the Overdrive when about 50% of my pistils were brown. This run I've started when all pistils are still white...but just before they start to go brown. Basically, when the plant starts to come off that big run of heavy nute and water usage. It's so easy to tell by just lifting the pots prior to watering. One week they'll be almost feather light, the next week they still have lots of water. It seems to be around week 5-6. Overdrive is advertised to give the plants an additional surge of bud growth. We'll see. This is typically the time I start reducing ppm and watering frequency. 

All I can say to the Haters is go out and try some. You don't have to tell anyone. This, of course, doesn't apply to Kitty. When we hear about some maniac driving a truckload of explosives through the AN factory....well....we all know who that is.


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## hellraizer30 (Dec 28, 2011)

Im confused about kushie kush word is its the same as bigbud but a bit stronger, also it call to start using alot sooner
Than big but, so if there close to the same thing why not start using big bud sooner?

I to am trying to dail in when to stop the bb and start overdrive! Plus finding a starting point for yellow bottle finish!


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## veggin' (Dec 29, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> I have tryed nova and most of those sups and theres alot of waisted $ there! You will not get what you can from
> Gh as you can from AN! Now im not invoking you buy all an shit either! Stay simple any of there base line and
> Big bud and b52 also overdrive and i promiss you will rock the house!
> 
> ...


So you're using the bloom boosters at 1/4 strength?
How does that compare to using them at full strength?


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## hellraizer30 (Dec 29, 2011)

My reasoning for this is an feeding charts are way to strong! And theres no reason to waist nutes when less = the same!
So that = less is more


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## chriscd27 (Dec 29, 2011)

well all i can say is that it is the bolloxs (awsome) jealous as hell to your set up, and laws. im in the uk so its all illegal.


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## collective gardener (Dec 29, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> Im confused about kushie kush word is its the same as bigbud but a bit stronger, also it call to start using alot sooner
> Than big but, so if there close to the same thing why not start using big bud sooner?
> 
> I to am trying to dail in when to stop the bb and start overdrive! Plus finding a starting point for yellow bottle finish!


I'm not too clear on the real difs between Big Bud and Kushie. I tried the Kushie, but ended up back on the BB. I start the BB day 1 of bloom and run it till the Overdrive.

It looks like we're really in the same boat with regards to getting the Overdrive and Final timing right. I'm happy with my Final timing...one dose day 1 of flush and one dose day 3 of flush. Whatever you guys do, DO NOT apply Yellow Bottle Final too early in the bloom phase. You can get new pistil growth and some foxtailing that really fucks with your bag appeal. 

I was thinking of trying the final WAY earier on a trial plant. Since it seems to stimulate new pistil growth, maybe application as new pistil growth is slowing would be productive? Could it actually increase the pistil/calyx count? That's really the determiner of bud size. Is the Overdrive designed to do the same? Are they made of similar compounds? Do we need them both? So many questions. 

I know that I've got the first 5 weeks of bloom totally dialed in. My nde spacing has never been tighter and the bud size has never been bigger. Those last few weeks are so strain and atmosphere dependant, it seems like starting over every new grow op and strain. Not to mention the fact that we never had any "bloom boosters" when I started this racket. Back then it was all "snake oil", and no real grower would touch it. We all had the Uncle Ben attitude. Fortunately we've discovered the true benefits of quality additives. Kamie will have trouble testing results with so many nutes being used. With only 3-4 bottles of shit to deal with, testing is much easier and more effective.


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## CourageToGrow (Dec 29, 2011)

Wow, just found this thread, absolutely fantastic info. Great set up too, thanks CG for sharing all this online! I would love to head over to your collective sometime though. I like your curing method, I'm about to flower my plants and when they are ready I'm going to try your method. I'll let you know how that goes once they are ready. 

subscribed

Peace and Happy Growing


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## kamie (Dec 29, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I'm not too clear on the real difs between Big Bud and Kushie. I tried the Kushie, but ended up back on the BB. I start the BB day 1 of bloom and run it till the Overdrive.
> 
> It looks like we're really in the same boat with regards to getting the Overdrive and Final timing right. I'm happy with my Final timing...one dose day 1 of flush and one dose day 3 of flush. Whatever you guys do, DO NOT apply Yellow Bottle Final too early in the bloom phase. You can get new pistil growth and some foxtailing that really fucks with your bag appeal.
> 
> ...


Hey CG,
You're right, i feel like I'm using too many nutes and i want to use only what i need and not all the other stuff i been adding. i came into this blind, but after my first run i quickly learned alot. My set up is:

bloom room 1 6x magnum xxxl's
- 9 plants each light
- all topped except for 9
- 9 topped and 9 untopped plants are getting floranova, florablend, floralicious plus, both liquid and dry koolbloom, and then yellow bottle final.
- 36 topped are using the same nutes i used the first run
- first watering for 12/12 on tues. i hit it with bud blood. im watering again tonite, but this time im keep it out. i have the 6 gal. diamond nectar as well not sure if i should hit it too or just leave it out this run.

Bloom room 2 i haven't switched to 12/12 yet and i'm debating if i should get conniseur base and use b52 over drive and big bud. i'd only have to get the base and b52 since i already have big bud and over drive.

my friend who helped me set up the first run doesn't even measure ph or ppm and told me i didn't need it. i need to go get myself a meter so i can measure everything.
i just don't know what brand and model to get. i also need to get a RO system, ive been running tap which i think is at 200 ppm. any advice would be great.


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## veggin' (Dec 29, 2011)

CG,

Are you using BB, B52 and Overdrive at full strength (per AN's feeding chart)?

BTW, Thank you for this awesome thread! Read every post.


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## collective gardener (Dec 30, 2011)

Kamie...Iwould try thr Connoiseur if I were you on at least a few plants. Then you can see if it is worth the very high cost. 

Veggin and Kamie...I do not use a PH pen since going on AN. I DO use a TDS pen and mix my nutes at 1000ppm. If you use the AN formulas your ppm will be very high (2000ish)


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## kamie (Dec 30, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Kamie...Iwould try thr Connoiseur if I were you on at least a few plants. Then you can see if it is worth the very high cost.
> 
> Veggin and Kamie...I do not use a PH pen since going on AN. I DO use a TDS pen and mix my nutes at 1000ppm. If you use the AN formulas your ppm will be very high (2000ish)


Hey CG, i'm planning to pick up the connoiseur next week. which brand and model of the TDS pen are you using? i just sprayed the plants with spectracide last night to get it ready for 12/12 next week. i looked at it this morning and it looked great. Do light do you use when you spray your plants when theyre sleeping? i bought these green eye led to work on the room when its sleeping but im actually looking into some bulbs i can hook up to the room so i dont have to wear that lamp on my head..


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## collective gardener (Dec 31, 2011)

kamie said:


> Hey CG, i'm planning to pick up the connoiseur next week. which brand and model of the TDS pen are you using? i just sprayed the plants with spectracide last night to get it ready for 12/12 next week. i looked at it this morning and it looked great. Do light do you use when you spray your plants when theyre sleeping? i bought these green eye led to work on the room when its sleeping but im actually looking into some bulbs i can hook up to the room so i dont have to wear that lamp on my head..


I never work in the bloom room at night. I spray with lights on, but right before they go out for the night.


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## kamie (Dec 31, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> I never work in the bloom room at night. I spray with lights on, but right before they go out for the night.


is it okay to spray 1 hr before lights out?


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## stonestare (Jan 1, 2012)

I have been reading AN website and there is so much there that I am getting lost. They have the gardeners value pack but I do not know what I will need. I thought I would need some cal mag to presoak the blocks with along with a nute base. I am more lost now than when I started reading HELP LOL


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 1, 2012)

Stay with the basics dont get lost with all there crap!
1) Pick a base nute line
2) big bud, b52, overdrive, sensi cal a, and b


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## stonestare (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks alot they have so much out its easy to get lost


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 1, 2012)

I think thats there method of sales lol


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## collective gardener (Jan 3, 2012)

Haven't talked gardening in a while. With plant limits the oz/plant is becoming a new form of measuring yield. While I know it's possible to pull over an Lb, I don't think it's too light efficient. I have started to see some 4oz plants in my garden. That's not bad for a plant 36" tall. The real trick here is the pre flower pruning. Here's 2 pics of a perfectly pruned plant week 2 of bloom. The top view shows what the light sees...the most important viewpoint:



The plant was only topped once. But, all throughout veg the inner/upper fan leaves were removed as they grew in. I continue to remove those leaves through the plant's entire life cycle. About week 2 of bloom I decide where to lolipop. I lolipop at the point where no light gets to the plant...usually 1/3 of the way up the plant. I will leave the fan leaves on down low...just removing shoots. These leaves can be important nute reserves later and need no light to do so. The outer fan leaves can stay on till about week 5/6 in bloom. Then I want the plants to get max light deep into the canopy. By the time the plant is being flushed there are very few leaves with any stem visable. This ripens the lower buds and makes trimming that much easier. I would say, on average, I remove 2 leaves/day/plant all throughout bloom. With this plant I really concentrated on pruning in the early veg phase. Thgis paid off big time. 25 of these plants will fill an 8x8 tray. You can do the math.


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## stonestare (Jan 3, 2012)

With regards to your pruning it does not look evasive on the first round of pruning.Alot of people do not like to prune but your showing results that can only be done by pruning. Have you thought of LST your plants to get more yield out of them?


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## collective gardener (Jan 3, 2012)

stonestare said:


> With regards to your pruning it does not look evasive on the first round of pruning.Alot of people do not like to prune but your showing results that can only be done by pruning. Have you thought of LST your plants to get more yield out of them?



If you read back 50 pages or so you'll see that we used to LST. I found it to be inferior to topping and selective pruning. I've found lst to work better on very large plants. I've also seen that anything over 4oz/plant becomes inefficient. In other words, an 8 oz plant takes up 3-4 times the room as a 4 oz plant. It's old school knowledge that more smaller plants is a better use of space and will almost always yield more than fewer larger plants. Hence, SOG is born. But, with plants counts becoming an issue, a little loss in efficiency can be tolerated in exchange for lower plant count and reduced legal risk. I believe that plants in the 2-4 ounce range offer a very nice balance between yield/sq ft and plant count. As I talked abouty in an earlier post, my best yield was with 9 plants/sq ft. If I did that today I'd have 1,800 plants in my bloom room...not really an option in the current climate.


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## stonestare (Jan 3, 2012)

I will have to go back and read for sure. You settled one of my all time questions and that is plant size. Indoors is a real switch from having 12' trees outside. Once again thanks for the information


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## sharpshoota (Jan 4, 2012)

how did you bloom them with the 9 per sqft? was is it cubes over a slab? 
running minimum 50w per sq/ft youd be doing 5 yrs just for running a single 1kw. im not going any further on how stupid that is haha


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## collective gardener (Jan 4, 2012)

sharpshoota said:


> how did you bloom them with the 9 per sqft? was is it cubes over a slab?
> running minimum 50w per sq/ft youd be doing 5 yrs just for running a single 1kw. im not going any further on how stupid that is haha


4" blocks touching eachother on an ebb and flow table with a 1" flood every 4 hrs.


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## buckd316 (Jan 4, 2012)

@ collective gardener -- How did you find your "cannabis attorney" andany recommendations?


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## collective gardener (Jan 5, 2012)

buckd316 said:


> @ collective gardener -- How did you find your "cannabis attorney" andany recommendations?



I think NORML has a list of attorneys. Mine was referred to me by Commercial J.


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## buckd316 (Jan 5, 2012)

was it difficult to start a collective?


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## dapio (Jan 5, 2012)

CG could you explain how difficult it is to suspend those inline fans from the ceiling and the ducting I see at the beginning of your thread it looks almost like bungee cords are supporting them but I can just never picture how they would hold to a point where one would be comfortable with leaving them there for awhile if you get what i'm saying I have a small setup where my inline fan just sits on the ground and basically pulls the air away from the light out of the closet. Also is two fans per row of lights standard? which inline fan would need more CFM the intake or the exhaust?


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## stonestare (Jan 5, 2012)

CG would it be possible for you to pm me what you are using for nutes, I know you said conassuer but how much does a person need as far as differant types of nutes?


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## sharpshoota (Jan 5, 2012)

stonestare said:


> CG would it be possible for you to pm me what you are using for nutes, I know you said conassuer but how much does a person need as far as differant types of nutes?


last i read he uses advanced nutrients--conissieur ab, b-52, big bud
A.O.- final
and a cal mag supplement..
there is no 1 magic nute combo. just read and uderstand your plants as well as their phases. it may take a few crops to really find a combo that meets your expectations.


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## stonestare (Jan 5, 2012)

Yes I have read that but I wanted to be sure, He has been playing with an nutes and was curious what he is using currently. I plan to use the grodan blocks like he uses them. Growing inside is all going to be new to me and I just dont want to waste 100 bucks on seed because I did something wrong like using too much nute or using a nute when its not needed.Also do you feed cal mag every time you water since the grodon blocks have no nutes to them andwhat is being used during the veg period. I use ironite with bat guano to feed my outdoor plants.I am no longer able to grow outside so I have to move indoors.If I could see where he is dialed in I can use that as a baseline.I have no acess to clones so I have to go from seed.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 6, 2012)

Im moving from indoor to out back to indoor myself. and i start from seed to, no clones in my state haha
I would reccomend earth juice grow as a good organic base for veg. but CG will help you.
good luck to ya


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## sharpshoota (Jan 6, 2012)

dapio said:


> CG could you explain how difficult it is to suspend those inline fans from the ceiling and the ducting I see at the beginning of your thread it looks almost like bungee cords are supporting them but I can just never picture how they would hold to a point where one would be comfortable with leaving them there for awhile if you get what i'm saying I have a small setup where my inline fan just sits on the ground and basically pulls the air away from the light out of the closet. Also is two fans per row of lights standard? which inline fan would need more CFM the intake or the exhaust?


not sure how he has his setup, but i can answer your other ?'s
you want your outake to be a higher cfm
1 fan per row is ok. 3 light max. 
but if your running a huge fan like cg, you can exhaust more lights


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## recirculator (Jan 6, 2012)

Hi CG and everyone

I'll start by saying I found this thread while googling some random issue, and found it to be so good, I've just registered for the forum and this is my first post here.

My question for you is regarding your 4" cube onto the 6" cube. I have recently begun using exactly this setup as my new designated grower status in Canada allows me 25 plants (previously I've been using flood and drain tables with 4" rockwool cubes and lots o' plants).

I have found that when I placed my 4" cube onto the Hugo block, within about 1 minute or so the 4" cube has enough water sucked out of it that it feels as though "*it is so lightweight you could pick up the whole plant and block with a leaf blade without breaking it."


*In my system (did you guess that I have a recirculating system), the solution is simple...I just run the drippers on 15 minutes every hour until the roots have a chance to take hold in the bottom block. The one plant I had on the side ( my system is built for 24 so I had a 25th one I was hand watering daily) was so dry, and the top of the hugo block too, that the plant got stunted and the roots never descended into the Hugo until I sliced it in half (the hugo that is) and placed a plastic bag in between the two layers. Finally this allowed the top cube to retain enough moisture to allow the plant to come back and then once the top half of the hugo was rootbound I removed the plastic bag and she was ok after that.

So my question is have you encountered this phenomenon and what is your 4" onto Hugo transplant procedure if you have one.

Thanks and much respect

The Recirculator

Happy Happy


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## collective gardener (Jan 7, 2012)

buckd316 said:


> was it difficult to start a collective?


The paperwork is as easy as giving the attorney a few grand and signing some papers. Gathering members will be easy for some and hard for others.


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## collective gardener (Jan 7, 2012)

dapio said:


> CG could you explain how difficult it is to suspend those inline fans from the ceiling and the ducting I see at the beginning of your thread it looks almost like bungee cords are supporting them but I can just never picture how they would hold to a point where one would be comfortable with leaving them there for awhile if you get what i'm saying I have a small setup where my inline fan just sits on the ground and basically pulls the air away from the light out of the closet. Also is two fans per row of lights standard? which inline fan would need more CFM the intake or the exhaust?



My fans are all mounted using the hardware supplied with the lights. I use a piece of neopreme from an old wetsuit as a vibration dampner.

I believe that 150cfm/1000 watt light is a good starting point for cooling capacity. I use a 750cfm for 4 lights.


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## collective gardener (Jan 7, 2012)

recirculator said:


> Hi CG and everyone
> 
> I'll start by saying I found this thread while googling some random issue, and found it to be so good, I've just registered for the forum and this is my first post here.
> 
> ...



This is common with rockwool. First off, soak the Hugo Blocks overnight prior to use. This will increase their holding capacity...the more water they hold, the less will be sucked from the 4" block. This should solve your current problem. I experienced the same thing when in a hurry and skipping the block soak step. 

Make sure the root coming from the 4" block are not holding the block slightly off contactg with the 6" block.

After placing the 4 on the 6, water just the 6 for the first couple waterings. The idea is to tease the roots into the 6" block. 

Last, and absolutely the most important, let the block dry out between waterings. Rockwool holds an assload of water, yet water is fully available to plant right to the last drop in the block. If you have experienced a block dried out enough to cause wilting, you'll know how feather light that block needs to get before wilting. When the rockwool is allowed to dry out between waterings, a large root structure will develope. Also, I've found that growth is fastest when the blocks are between 50% wet and dry enough to almost wilt. 

Try placing the rockwool Hugo Block into a 2 gallon pot with some Hydrotons in the bottom. For larger plants I fill the pots half full with a rockwool crouton/perlite mix. It's important to only add rockwool croutons to a pot that will be holding a plant s_o big _the block cannot hold 24hrs of water. Otherwise, the block will stay too wet and the roots will not bite into the pot medium.

Rockwool can be a bitch. That's why it's not a good medium for noobs. But, once you make friends with it, it can be a very productive and easy medium to use.


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## collective gardener (Jan 7, 2012)

Harvest time again. Here's a rack of bubba. This is the tightest node spacing we've ever had from Bub.


Here's the Tahoe. It's easy to see why the Tahoe is more expensive.

Here's a tahoe Close up.
Another Tahoe.
...and another
Here's a Bubba branch.

This is just the beginning. We have about 40 plants to harvest.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 7, 2012)

that tahoe is lookin AAA+


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## kamie (Jan 7, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 1979634Harvest time again. Here's a rack of bubba. This is the tightest node spacing we've ever had from Bub.
> 
> 
> View attachment 1979642Here's the Tahoe. It's easy to see why the Tahoe is more expensive.
> ...


looking very good CG. i notice youre not using the drying rack anymore? or was that from one of commercial J's drying pic. i remember a drying rack some 50 pages back. what do you prefer drying by hanging each branch or drying with the drying rack? i just chopped my chem dawgs i have half hanging and half on the rack. i notice with the rack some of the nuggs were stuck on the rack when i pulled them up to check and hanging had no issues.


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## C.Indica (Jan 7, 2012)

I know it's not your style, but have you seen Lordjin's Tahoe OG grow?


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## sharpshoota (Jan 7, 2012)

cg,

when you ran your sealed ops, did you drop your co2 ppm to 300 during the last 10 days b4 harvest? or something similar?


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## patrickkawi37 (Jan 7, 2012)

Hey CG your in inspiration to us all! Im about 50 pages back yet but I'm reading all your posts and learning a lot. I'm sort of new, had this hobby now about a year. I currently have a space a little larger than a 10x10. I have 4 1ks with raptor hoods, lumateks, and digiluxs. My room is sealed with a 8inch fan cooling lights and a 14k btu wall ac. I didn't have money to get co2 so I ran that boost bucket to maybe just keep the ppm high enough to grow. Didn't work out the best, I'm currently running all advanced nutes except great white. I just got a co2 tank, regulator and ppm4 controller. I don't want to do fresh air in because it gets pretty cold here in the Cali mtns. My question is, with a wall unit ac and the fan for the lights, is it even worth it for me to run co2? Im worried that I won't be able to control ppm good enough and it will stunt growth or make my meds turn shwag. The way I was doing it before I wasn't getting the yield, but everything comes out fire. Thanks for your time!


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## Ty13 (Jan 8, 2012)

I just have to say, THANK YOU CG!!! Thank you for such a wealth of knowledge and sharing everything. I'm only on about page 12 right now because I got home late but even in the beginning posts you've helped me with the idea of using the OSB wood to sheet the inner walls and/or ceiling.

I have a ~15'X15' sealed room I'm building and I just did complete the outside drywall. I was planning on using drywall for the inside as well after my electrician gets me set up but now I'll save the hassle with that and go your route with the OSB. This might sound so simple to some but finding this information so early on in your thread compels me to keep on reading, knowing that the experience you're sharing is invaluable to most all and especially myself in my first real grow.

Mine is budgeted for about 10-12K. 
-Running drip hydro in 5 gallon buckets(flower)
-6 x 1K hps w/Quantum dim. dig. ballasts(flower)
-About 4-T5's for veg. in ebb n flow 3x3 and some of the same 5 gal. buckets
-24K btu mini split(flower) 9K btu(veg.)
-Co2 burner with Sentinel CH-4 control
And more...

I'm really looking forward to reading about experienced take w/the air cooled lights w/regards to venting/inline and booster fans and possibly a fan w/backdraft damper to share some of the left over Co2 during the last 6 hours of light for the veg. while flower is dark.

Once again, THANK YOU!!!


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## collective gardener (Jan 8, 2012)

kamie said:


> looking very good CG. i notice youre not using the drying rack anymore? or was that from one of commercial J's drying pic. i remember a drying rack some 50 pages back. what do you prefer drying by hanging each branch or drying with the drying rack? i just chopped my chem dawgs i have half hanging and half on the rack. i notice with the rack some of the nuggs were stuck on the rack when i pulled them up to check and hanging had no issues.



We scoped dried weed on the rack and dried weed branch hung. The branch hung weed had more intact trichs. I think working with individual buds knocked off more trichomes. So, we now trim on the branch and do a small touchup when buds are removed from branch.

Back "in the day" (lamest phrase EVER) we would have never concerned ourselves with such a small quality detail. Now, everything's about staying on top of the quality heap.


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## collective gardener (Jan 8, 2012)

C.Indica said:


> I know it's not your style, but have you seen Lordjin's Tahoe OG grow?


I have not. I have seen quite a few "Tahoe" grows that were not real Tahoe. In this month's High Times there is a great pic of Tahoe in the "Top 10 Breeders" section. Ours looks exactly like that...even a little better. Tahoe is such a unique plant. Those little pointy and near leafless buds are hard to mistake. It's a hard plant to grow that would NEVER survive in nature. This plant takes a while to get used to growing. It must be topped a couple times to bush it up some. It also needs support. The thing is a nute hog, as well...sucking up 1500ppm with no problem. One day with bad light and it stretches enough to fuck your yield by 25%+. But, after learning its quirks, I am now happy to have her on board. In fact, I just took 50 cut of Tahoe. I may run a whole 8x8 tray of her. 

It may also be one of the most "in demand" So Cal strains. The dispensary we deal with carries 70+ strains. They have a very strict maximum price policy (on what they charge and what they pay wholesale). BUT, they made an exception for our Tahoe. They pay us their max price + $500/lb. They sell it as a "limitted supply" strain, and charge accordingly...alot, with no breaks for quantity. The last 1/2 lb we brought them was gone in one day. If you can find a real Tahoe cut strong enough to grow...do it! This is THE definition of elite OG. I don't know how good the Cali Connection athoe seeds are. Initial reports aren't too good. Seems like there's 2 Tahoes going around: Tahoes grown from Cali Connection seeds which are readily available and decent quality, and the far superior "clone only" variety. Once again it pays to have great friends. We scored the clone only from Commercial J, who gave it to us for testing. 

I'm SOOOO tempted to sell cuts of her. She'd command a premium price.


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## collective gardener (Jan 8, 2012)

sharpshoota said:


> cg,
> 
> when you ran your sealed ops, did you drop your co2 ppm to 300 during the last 10 days b4 harvest? or something similar?



No. Most of my life I've grown a perpetual harvest. When running sealed, I'd keep the CO2 around 1000ppm all the time.


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## collective gardener (Jan 8, 2012)

patrickkawi37 said:


> Hey CG your in inspiration to us all! Im about 50 pages back yet but I'm reading all your posts and learning a lot. I'm sort of new, had this hobby now about a year. I currently have a space a little larger than a 10x10. I have 4 1ks with raptor hoods, lumateks, and digiluxs. My room is sealed with a 8inch fan cooling lights and a 14k btu wall ac. I didn't have money to get co2 so I ran that boost bucket to maybe just keep the ppm high enough to grow. Didn't work out the best, I'm currently running all advanced nutes except great white. I just got a co2 tank, regulator and ppm4 controller. I don't want to do fresh air in because it gets pretty cold here in the Cali mtns. My question is, with a wall unit ac and the fan for the lights, is it even worth it for me to run co2? Im worried that I won't be able to control ppm good enough and it will stunt growth or make my meds turn shwag. The way I was doing it before I wasn't getting the yield, but everything comes out fire. Thanks for your time!



You have 2 choices. Run a sealed grow and add CO2, or run an open room and bring in as much fresh air as you can keep the right temp. People get into trouble when they blend the 2.

As long as your _lights are getting their supply air from somewhere other than the grow room,_ the only air exchange will be the wall AC unit. The question then becomes, how much CO2 will you use keeping the ppm right? If you can run the CO2, do it. You'll get better yields and the quality will not be affected.


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## collective gardener (Jan 8, 2012)

Ty13 said:


> I just have to say, THANK YOU CG!!! Thank you for such a wealth of knowledge and sharing everything. I'm only on about page 12 right now because I got home late but even in the beginning posts you've helped me with the idea of using the OSB wood to sheet the inner walls and/or ceiling.
> 
> I have a ~15'X15' sealed room I'm building and I just did complete the outside drywall. I was planning on using drywall for the inside as well after my electrician gets me set up but now I'll save the hassle with that and go your route with the OSB. This might sound so simple to some but finding this information so early on in your thread compels me to keep on reading, knowing that the experience you're sharing is invaluable to most all and especially myself in my first real grow.
> 
> ...



Sounds like a nice settup. You'll find that CO2 in the veg room will speed up veg growth a bunch. I sometimes fire up my CO2 burner when I need veging plants to speed up. They double in speed with some extra CO2.


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## collective gardener (Jan 8, 2012)

how do I do multiple replies in one post?


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## Bird Gymnastics (Jan 8, 2012)

Just hit the "+ icon at the bottom right then when you are done adding all the quotes with the bottom icon, go to reply with quote and all the ones you "liked" will be there. Respond accordingly. So back to your thread, lol, what would be the premium for 50 cuts?


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## patrickkawi37 (Jan 8, 2012)

Thank you very much CG! Your hobby is 5 times the size of mine and you still take time out to answer people's questions. If I decide to use the co2, duct tape all my ducting so no leaks, and run my ac all the time during lights on, I will have to compensate for the fresh air getting in. I guess I effd myself buying the ppm4 controller (I don't recommend, unless your as broke as me) it only gives you one of 3 ppm readings and I don't find it to be very accurate. Do you think if I start low and gradually raise it til week 5 then gradually turn it down 6-7, that it would benefit my plants without harming them? I really won't have an accurate reading.. I just would have to wing it and hope for the best. As far as fresh air in, I run my lights at night and sometimes it gets to 10f or less. I read in Cervantes book that it's not good to bring in air that cold? Also I'm trying to flip next run this week so fresh air in would require another hole in a rented house and a can filter, not in the budget this one. Sorry for rambling I guess I'm asking do you think I would be better off getting another boost bucket this one and just doing fresh air next one and return the co2? Or should I chance not having a steady ppm and hope for the best? Thank you for your time


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## Ty13 (Jan 8, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> how do I do multiple replies in one post?


There's a "Multi-Quote" button to the right of the "Reply With Quote" button.


Bird Gymnastics said:


> Just hit the "+ icon at the bottom right then when you are done adding all the quotes with the bottom icon, go to reply with quote and all the ones you "liked" will be there. Respond accordingly. So back to your thread, lol, what would be the premium for 50 cuts?


Correct, check each one you'd like to reply to and hit the "Reply With Quote" when ready to reply to each. They will all show up in the order you checked them and you can reply in between each one. Just reply below each one that is "wrapped" inside the quote tags.


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## recirculator (Jan 8, 2012)

patrickkawi37 said:


> \ do you think I would be better off getting another boost bucket this one and just doing fresh air next one and return the co2? Or should I chance not having a steady ppm and hope for the best? Thank you for your time


Those boost buckets don't work. Don't waste your money. Much better value to buy a few hamsters. I bought one of those CO2 Boost buckets once and held the output hose right up to my co2 monitor and nothing. No change whatsoever. Then I breathed on it and it shot up (the co2 monitor that is).

Happy Happy


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## kamie (Jan 8, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> I have not. I have seen quite a few "Tahoe" grows that were not real Tahoe. In this month's High Times there is a great pic of Tahoe in the "Top 10 Breeders" section. Ours looks exactly like that...even a little better. Tahoe is such a unique plant. Those little pointy and near leafless buds are hard to mistake. It's a hard plant to grow that would NEVER survive in nature. This plant takes a while to get used to growing. It must be topped a couple times to bush it up some. It also needs support. The thing is a nute hog, as well...sucking up 1500ppm with no problem. One day with bad light and it stretches enough to fuck your yield by 25%+. But, after learning its quirks, I am now happy to have her on board. In fact, I just took 50 cut of Tahoe. I may run a whole 8x8 tray of her.
> 
> It may also be one of the most "in demand" So Cal strains. The dispensary we deal with carries 70+ strains. They have a very strict maximum price policy (on what they charge and what they pay wholesale). BUT, they made an exception for our Tahoe. They pay us their max price + $500/lb. They sell it as a "limitted supply" strain, and charge accordingly...alot, with no breaks for quantity. The last 1/2 lb we brought them was gone in one day. If you can find a real Tahoe cut strong enough to grow...do it! This is THE definition of elite OG. I don't know how good the Cali Connection athoe seeds are. Initial reports aren't too good. Seems like there's 2 Tahoes going around: Tahoes grown from Cali Connection seeds which are readily available and decent quality, and the far superior "clone only" variety. Once again it pays to have great friends. We scored the clone only from Commercial J, who gave it to us for testing.
> 
> I'm SOOOO tempted to sell cuts of her. She'd command a premium price.



ill buy one. in the bay area everyone always wants that dark purple grapes. i wouldn't mind introducing something different


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## Fnominon (Jan 9, 2012)

patrickkawi37 said:


> Thank you very much CG! Your hobby is 5 times the size of mine and you still take time out to answer people's questions. If I decide to use the co2, duct tape all my ducting so no leaks, and run my ac all the time during lights on, I will have to compensate for the fresh air getting in. I guess I effd myself buying the ppm4 controller (I don't recommend, unless your as broke as me) it only gives you one of 3 ppm readings and I don't find it to be very accurate. Do you think if I start low and gradually raise it til week 5 then gradually turn it down 6-7, that it would benefit my plants without harming them? I really won't have an accurate reading.. I just would have to wing it and hope for the best. As far as fresh air in, I run my lights at night and sometimes it gets to 10f or less. I read in Cervantes book that it's not good to bring in air that cold? Also I'm trying to flip next run this week so fresh air in would require another hole in a rented house and a can filter, not in the budget this one. Sorry for rambling I guess I'm asking do you think I would be better off getting another boost bucket this one and just doing fresh air next one and return the co2? Or should I chance not having a steady ppm and hope for the best? Thank you for your time


If you can't afford a can filter I highly recommend steering clear of CO2, unless you live in the middle of no where. I have been running CO2 for over 4 years and I have seen it increase yields some of the time, increasing tricome production significantly, but the increase in the aroma is so strong that I run a 6" can fan, ionizer, sealed room, and have set up a rabbitry to cover the smell with poo and it is still noticable outside my house to the semi-trained nose. 

If you can get away with the smell then I would recommend no matter what strategy you addopt to completely seal your room as air tight as possible. If you need to vent in outside air you want to be able to control what air is coming into your room and what air is going out. The idea is CO2 is heavier than air and heat rises so it makes sense to put your exhaust duct up on the ceiling so you wont exhaust much CO2 and you will get the greatest possible cooling. I have owned both a sential CO2 meter and the PPM4 meter and I don't think the PPM4 meter is necessarily inaccurate, but if your looking to change your PPM during your grow you have the wrong tool. If you had a sentinel you could can adjust your PPM levels with a click of a few buttons and you also have the ability to shut down your burner / tank while you cycle in fresh air. With the PPM4 you will have to build your own relay with a timer that shuts down your exhaust when your Meter is active. Honestly unless your talented with electronics I would not attempt this I would say with the meter you have your only real option is a sealed room running a constant 1400 PPM. You can adjust the CO2 strength a bit by positioning your meter at different heights in your room, if you want strong CO2 levels hang the meter above your canopy.


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## collective gardener (Jan 9, 2012)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> Just hit the "+ icon at the bottom right then when you are done adding all the quotes with the bottom icon, go to reply with quote and all the ones you "liked" will be there. Respond accordingly. So back to your thread, lol, what would be the premium for 50 cuts?


I don't know. I'm not selling anything as of now. My long term goal is to someday sell the whole thing...the lease, grow op, genetics, and market. This will be when I'm ready to move on. I'm not quite there yet. LOL. Having too much fun. 



patrickkawi37 said:


> Thank you very much CG! Your hobby is 5 times the size of mine and you still take time out to answer people's questions. If I decide to use the co2, duct tape all my ducting so no leaks, and run my ac all the time during lights on, I will have to compensate for the fresh air getting in. I guess I effd myself buying the ppm4 controller (I don't recommend, unless your as broke as me) it only gives you one of 3 ppm readings and I don't find it to be very accurate. Do you think if I start low and gradually raise it til week 5 then gradually turn it down 6-7, that it would benefit my plants without harming them? I really won't have an accurate reading.. I just would have to wing it and hope for the best. As far as fresh air in, I run my lights at night and sometimes it gets to 10f or less. I read in Cervantes book that it's not good to bring in air that cold? Also I'm trying to flip next run this week so fresh air in would require another hole in a rented house and a can filter, not in the budget this one. Sorry for rambling I guess I'm asking do you think I would be better off getting another boost bucket this one and just doing fresh air next one and return the co2? Or should I chance not having a steady ppm and hope for the best? Thank you for your time


If you can't get the CO2 perfect (which you can't with that equipment), do not use it. There's plenty of ways to promote good air circulation. If the outdoor air is too cold, why not bring in air from the main house? You can bring in cold air as long as it can warm up a bit before blasting on the plants. I use a little propane CO2 generator on a thermostat for a heater. It runs most of the night when outdoor temps are low. Even with my massive air flow (5000+ CFM), that little CAP generator raises the CO2 level a bit. My lighting fans are always on. The big exhaust fans are on a thermostat. Basically, when they're off (thus reducing airflow and potentially reducing CO2 levels), the CO2 gen is on (increasing temp and CO2 levels). The result is my CO2 levels are never below ambiant, and often 100-200 above ambiant, and my temps stay between 75 an 82 daytime, and around 65-70 at night. It's a "loose" system, but it works for now. 

Our ultimate goal is to seal the room totally and enrich to around 800ppm. Sealed grows with total temp, RH, and CO2 control are clearly the way to go. But until you have all the equipment needed to do it totally right, lots of fresh air is the order of the day.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 9, 2012)

cg, when you start flushing are you using just Final?

Also, I know you do a weekly flush, but have you tried inoculating the rockwool with beneficial's?


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## patrickkawi37 (Jan 10, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> I don't know. I'm not selling anything as of now. My long term goal is to someday sell the whole thing...the lease, grow op, genetics, and market. This will be when I'm ready to move on. I'm not quite there yet. LOL. Having too much fun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Terrible news for me I guess. I previously ran this setup with that bs boost bucket with full AN line with 50% rh and 70 degrees. My nuggets turned out bomb but I yielded kinda small 2 runs in a row. Figured it was co2. Not much I can do at this point I'm going to run it low and hope for the best. Flipped 12/12 today . Northern lightsXbigbud , the ultimate , c99 , bubblegummer. I will definitely be getting a proper air conditioner before next one. Maybe I will be able to switch it out mid run :/ . Thank you very much for help, can't wait to see those pre 98 golf balls when you get the co2 rocking fully sealed. Thankyou everyone else for input, this thread is awesome


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## collective gardener (Jan 10, 2012)

patrickkawi37 said:


> Terrible news for me I guess. I previously ran this setup with that bs boost bucket with full AN line with 50% rh and 70 degrees. My nuggets turned out bomb but I yielded kinda small 2 runs in a row. Figured it was co2. Not much I can do at this point I'm going to run it low and hope for the best. Flipped 12/12 today . Northern lightsXbigbud , the ultimate , c99 , bubblegummer. I will definitely be getting a proper air conditioner before next one. Maybe I will be able to switch it out mid run :/ . Thank you very much for help, can't wait to see those pre 98 golf balls when you get the co2 rocking fully sealed. Thankyou everyone else for input, this thread is awesome



Sounds a bit cold. That makes a big difference. It's usually pretty easy to warm up a grow op. Give me a choice between 70 and 90...I'll take 90 (and a bottle of Floromite)


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## collective gardener (Jan 10, 2012)

sharpshoota said:


> cg, when you start flushing are you using just Final?
> 
> Also, I know you do a weekly flush, but have you tried inoculating the rockwool with beneficial's?


We've been playing with timing on the Final. It's such a powerful tool, getting the timing right can make a huge difference. What it does id to give the plant a last ditch Hail Mary growth surge...using nutrients and energy already in the plant. Basically, it diverts everything to the buds. 

Using Final with the flush gives the buds a last surge of weight gain. But, it may be used at another time. When the serious week 2-5 growth starts slowing, you can apply the Final. That will give you another week or so of calyx and pistil production. Applied in between these times is bad. That just creates foxtails.


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## collective gardener (Jan 10, 2012)

Most of these are pics of the Veg Room. Designing a large Veg Room was a good idea. Most veg rooms are too small. I like having plenty of room to move about. We also have a few lights installed that can be pressed into service when we have large crops vegging. I'm finding that time spent getting the vegging plants to a perfect size and shape really pays off. Our most recent harvest confirms this. I pruned a bunch in veg...always keeping the largest shoots exposed to the light. The plants ended up with more shoots in a given area, and tighter node spacing. The Bubs are actually developing colas. 

The next test will be to remove all lateral branching and just keep the 3-6 primary branches. Then, we'll plant these plants very close together....like 50 plants on an 8x8 tray. The idea being that the whole canopy is just high yielding primary branches. This, I believe, will be the best way to grow this strain for max production. 

The Tahoes are different. The next batch will be topped 2-4 times in their tomato cage. The idea here is to top until the plant gets bushy enough to throw some product. Un-topped, they're just way too sparse.


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## lamabile85 (Jan 10, 2012)

Your plants always look so healthy!


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## sebastopolian (Jan 10, 2012)

My BF & I have been growing OGK, for a quite few years now & have had some interesting times with it, and your right un-topped they r sparse. But we like the end product very beautiful bud & great smoke. I've been researching the Tahoe & thought about trying it. I grow my own mother plants & clone off them and finding the good genetic's makes all the difference. I noticed you have Ezcloner, How do you like it?
I got my first one a couple years ago for my birthday, best present ever... I bought a water chiller for it, since it was 120 site, I use 2 of the plug sites for the chiller & keeps the water at a pleasant 73 degrees. Not sure when u bought yours but my first machine came with firmer plug's which i prefer, my second machine they r way too soft & just dont last as long. I contacted ezcloner Inc, they said that they stopped making the firmer one's due to complaint's... Now they r getting complaint's too soft. But reassured me that they are going to try and provide them both. I thanked them of course. 

Are you in So cal? Im in northern cal, and was thinking about taking a trip down south to take a look around, maybe check out some dispensaries, any suggestions on some cool ones?

Also may visit Disneyland, been a while. Need to turn into a kid again! I enjoy your thread keep up the good work! Peace & Happy gardening!!


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## AndyK (Jan 10, 2012)

I noticed some seedlings in one of the pictures. What are you running from seed?


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## collective gardener (Jan 10, 2012)

sebastopolian said:


> My BF & I have been growing OGK, for a quite few years now & have had some interesting times with it, and your right un-topped they r sparse. But we like the end product very beautiful bud & great smoke. I've been researching the Tahoe & thought about trying it. I grow my own mother plants & clone off them and finding the good genetic's makes all the difference. I noticed you have Ezcloner, How do you like it?
> I got my first one a couple years ago for my birthday, best present ever... I bought a water chiller for it, since it was 120 site, I use 2 of the plug sites for the chiller & keeps the water at a pleasant 73 degrees. Not sure when u bought yours but my first machine came with firmer plug's which i prefer, my second machine they r way too soft & just dont last as long. I contacted ezcloner Inc, they said that they stopped making the firmer one's due to complaint's... Now they r getting complaint's too soft. But reassured me that they are going to try and provide them both. I thanked them of course.
> 
> Are you in So cal? Im in northern cal, and was thinking about taking a trip down south to take a look around, maybe check out some dispensaries, any suggestions on some cool ones?
> ...


EZ cloner was a gift from a grower who's op I helped dial in. This is first test run. The plugs seem fine. Don't know if they're hard or soft. I ordered some more new ones...will let you know if they're harder or softer. If you're around Hollywood, check out Hollyweed www.hollyweed420.com . If they were closer to me I'd be there all of the time to try their meds. Selection is best I've ever seen in So Cal. Nice people, too. 



AndyK said:


> I noticed some seedlings in one of the pictures. What are you running from seed?


I was wondering if anyone saw those. Well, most are tomatoes. Need my hydro Beefsteaks for BBQ burgers. But 3 are seeds from, either one of the 98's, or from this fire diesel. A friend had a bud of each in his jar and found these three seeds. He returned them to me (what a bitchen guy) to grow out. Either plant will be great to have. Haven't grown out some seeds in a while, and certainly not anything of this potential quality.


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## C.Indica (Jan 11, 2012)

Whoa holy shit! CG messing with seedlings?
NEVER though I'd see that!

Either pre-98 or fire, sounds like a good gamble.
Hope it's quality!


CG, I'm steadily on my way to Live Soil Organic,
so thanks for the inspiration!


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## Dank Hands (Jan 11, 2012)

Thank you very much for sharing this CG. Crazy amounts of "Hash Makings". Do you mix your strains when you make your hash, or keep your strains in seperate batches? 

Thanks again bro this is the sickest grow I have seen both in real life or on the internet.


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## collective gardener (Jan 11, 2012)

Dank Hands said:


> Thank you very much for sharing this CG. Crazy amounts of "Hash Makings". Do you mix your strains when you make your hash, or keep your strains in seperate batches?
> 
> Thanks again bro this is the sickest grow I have seen both in real life or on the internet.


Damn...never heard that before...thank you so much. That makes me feel good.


On another note. Which one of you regulars runs Ebb and Flow? I know one of you posts regular on that thread. I need some advice. We just bought the CAP Ebb n Flow Bucket System to try out. It looks like the most mobile system out there...meaning I can move the plants around easily. That has always been my biggest complaint about the "real" hydro systems...that the plants are in a fixed location. I also don't like miles of tubing going everywhere. This system seems to have addressed those issues. I don't know why I haven't taken a look at this before. 

My wife is giving me shit about the amount of landfill trash we generate with rockwool. Since we're trying to design the grow op to be at least halfway enviro friendly, the rockwool may have to go. Bummer. I love it. But, at this scale, there's alot of rockwool being used and tossed. Even Capitolist Me is starting to feel some enviro-guilt. 

PLUS, the root aphids storming Cali grows have arrived here. They wiped out Commercial J's last crop. 20 Lbs down the drain at 5 weeks. I've heard they are easier to control with hydro systems. Right now the aphids are just in the plants I'm flushing...no big deal. But, if they get into the other tray, I'm fucked. Anyone kn ow what to use on them?


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## Bird Gymnastics (Jan 11, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Damn...never heard that before...thank you so much. That makes me feel good.
> 
> 
> On another note. Which one of you regulars runs Ebb and Flow? I know one of you posts regular on that thread. I need some advice. We just bought the CAP Ebb n Flow Bucket System to try out. It looks like the most mobile system out there...meaning I can move the plants around easily. That has always been my biggest complaint about the "real" hydro systems...that the plants are in a fixed location. I also don't like miles of tubing going everywhere. This system seems to have addressed those issues. I don't know why I haven't taken a look at this before.
> ...


I saw some great results using No Tolerance...but if you prefer not to use oils and stuff that can effect your crop, I'd say get some lady bugs. The only downside is the lady bugs you buy at the store were caught hibernating...this means they won't eat right away, they gotta hump, make some larvae and then they feed  takes about two weeks to fully get rid of them but it has always worked for me.


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## Wolverine97 (Jan 11, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Damn...never heard that before...thank you so much. That makes me feel good.
> 
> 
> On another note. Which one of you regulars runs Ebb and Flow? I know one of you posts regular on that thread. I need some advice. We just bought the CAP Ebb n Flow Bucket System to try out. It looks like the most mobile system out there...meaning I can move the plants around easily. That has always been my biggest complaint about the "real" hydro systems...that the plants are in a fixed location. I also don't like miles of tubing going everywhere. This system seems to have addressed those issues. I don't know why I haven't taken a look at this before.
> ...


Spinosad works fairly well, but you need a multi-pronged approach. I'd recommend nematodes, spinosad, and an Azamax drench... I've had them, they are THE motherfucking scourge for sure. Far worse than spider mites. 

also, my inbox is cleaned up now...


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## afrawfraw (Jan 11, 2012)

Perhaps the OP can answer a question I keep getting mixed answers about. I am turning a 10X11X7 bedroom into a flower room. If I use 5 vertical 600's and 1 MH 1000, can I run them bare bulb if I have adequate ventilation? My intake air is in the 40's-50's, and my exhaust fan is 880cfm...Some say the cold will be an issue. Others say it will work if I have a turbulent atmosphere. I will have atmospheric controls installed. How about it? Feasible, or impossible?


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 11, 2012)

Hey cg anything you need to know about the cap systems just hit me up im running x3 of them with 28 buckets each.


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## jojo2002 (Jan 11, 2012)

Hey CG since your in ventura call up Houewlings Tomato in Oxnard/Cam they are hydro setup maybe the can give you a free tour i believe they are on Ebb and flow with coco.. peace.


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## collective gardener (Jan 12, 2012)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> I saw some great results using No Tolerance...but if you prefer not to use oils and stuff that can effect your crop, I'd say get some lady bugs. The only downside is the lady bugs you buy at the store were caught hibernating...this means they won't eat right away, they gotta hump, make some larvae and then they feed  takes about two weeks to fully get rid of them but it has always worked for me.



I have ROOT aphids...not the kind lady bugs work on.


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## collective gardener (Jan 12, 2012)

afrawfraw said:


> Perhaps the OP can answer a question I keep getting mixed answers about. I am turning a 10X11X7 bedroom into a flower room. If I use 5 vertical 600's and 1 MH 1000, can I run them bare bulb if I have adequate ventilation? My intake air is in the 40's-50's, and my exhaust fan is 880cfm...Some say the cold will be an issue. Others say it will work if I have a turbulent atmosphere. I will have atmospheric controls installed. How about it? Feasible, or impossible?



Just don't let the cold air hit them head on.I would fire everything up and see what it does before bringing in the plants.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Jan 12, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> I have ROOT aphids...not the kind lady bugs work on.


Guess my medication is a little too strong  my bad...for root aphids my buddy and I have used Azatrol with pretty good results. Just make sure to dilute it as it can be fairly strong. We had 55 gallon drums so in there we would mix in about 1 cup of Azatrol. According to my notes I'm reading right now, they took us 9 complete days to get rid of them as soon as we added them to our reservoir. Sorry about the earlier post, I feel like a moron but glad you cleared it up.


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## Wurd (Jan 12, 2012)

afrawfraw said:


> Perhaps the OP can answer a question I keep getting mixed answers about. I am turning a 10X11X7 bedroom into a flower room. If I use 5 vertical 600's and 1 MH 1000, can I run them bare bulb if I have adequate ventilation? My intake air is in the 40's-50's, and my exhaust fan is 880cfm...Some say the cold will be an issue. Others say it will work if I have a turbulent atmosphere. I will have atmospheric controls installed. How about it? Feasible, or impossible?


Man, I have a very similar situation. CG is right on as usual. I live in the NW and it's kinda cold in my grow space. The air coming into the space is usually 50-60 but occasionally during very cold stretches in the Winter, the basement gets down to like 45 or so. I just make sure the air is deflected away from the plants. I actually ducted it to the top of the space where the warmest air is. Before I started deflecting the cold air I would notice the side of the plants that got the direct cold intake air on them showed stunted growth and more stunted flower development. It caused smaller & kinda spindly buds in those directly effected area. Rest of the plant did fine. You should be good as long as the cold air mixes with the warm before it reaches the plants. Make the colder room the veg room if you can. I noticed veg is less affected by cool temps. Also, make sure any really cold air doesn't aim toward any of your thermostats

On a separate note, good work CG! This thread is amazing! I stumbled across it about a month ago, read the whole thing and was inspired to join the riu community. It is literally the most practically usable gathering of information on this topic I have ever seen, and I have cervantes and rosenthal books. This whole thread makes me want to step my game up. Thanks for the dedication and education.

peace from the NW


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## afrawfraw (Jan 12, 2012)

Wurd said:


> Man, I have a very similar situation. CG is right on as usual. I live in the NW and it's kinda cold in my grow space. The air coming into the space is usually 50-60 but occasionally during very cold stretches in the Winter, the basement gets down to like 45 or so. I just make sure the air is deflected away from the plants. I actually ducted it to the top of the space where the warmest air is. Before I started deflecting the cold air I would notice the side of the plants that got the direct cold intake air on them showed stunted growth and more stunted flower development. It caused smaller & kinda spindly buds in those directly effected area. Rest of the plant did fine. You should be good as long as the cold air mixes with the warm before it reaches the plants. Make the colder room the veg room if you can. I noticed veg is less affected by cool temps. Also, make sure any really cold air doesn't aim toward any of your thermostats
> 
> On a separate note, good work CG! This thread is amazing! I stumbled across it about a month ago, read the whole thing and was inspired to join the riu community. It is literally the most practically usable gathering of information on this topic I have ever seen, and I have cervantes and rosenthal books. This whole thread makes me want to step my game up. Thanks for the dedication and education.
> 
> peace from the NW


Thank you guys! I'm rolling with the open bulbs. RH may suffer, seeing how I'll need a constant air flow, but the harvest makes up for it because of more light. Besides, MH always gave me more frost than RH anyways


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## stonestare (Jan 12, 2012)

ROOT APHID CONTROLS

There are several options, none are fool proof. First, there is a fungus that kills insects (_Beuveria bassiana_) This is sold under two brand names that I know of, Botinigard and Naturalis. This fungus is mixed with water and sprayed on the plants making direct contact with the aphids is important. This is one reason root aphids are so hard to control; there are so many nooks and crannies in soil and other mediums that almost any treatment is bound to miss a few pregnant females. In fact, one study I read showed that the number one reason for difficulty controlling root aphids is lack of proper application of the chemical or pathogen. I should mention too that the finer the mist the better. Also, since this fungus gets on the skin of aphids, and aphids that are growing rapidly can shed their skin every 3-5 days you should reapply the fungus every 3-5 days. In Europe they use a fungus _Verticillium lecanii_ with much success. I think this is still in the process of being approved by the EPA, but you could do a search for it. 

Second, you can apply chemicals like Neem, pyrethrum etc. to the roots and above ground parts of plants. For root aphids it is recommended you soak the root balls in an insecticide for 5 minutes. There are studies that show soaking in any insecticide for less than 5 min. will result in far less than 100% dead (you don&#8217;t fix the problem) so soak longer rather than shorter.Good article. 

I have had root aphids for almost 2 years. HIt em with everything from Azamax to pyrethrin to Botanigard. Botanigard ES works best out of everything. From what I read on the BOTAINGARD ES its a fungus that kills them

http://htgsupplysaskthedoc.blogspot.com/2009/11/pests-e-mail-root-aphids.html this link will take you to what I have posted

I hope this will resolve your issues that your having


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## C.Indica (Jan 12, 2012)

CG you know how to multiquote right?

Will a 250w bulb fit the BlockBuster / CAP LuminAire reflector?


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 12, 2012)

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/451539-hellraizer30-running-ebb-grow-max-2.html Post#39 is my layout of Each tent.
Post #41 is how i raised the buckets 

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/451539-hellraizer30-running-ebb-grow-max-96.html
Post#2861 shows how i routed everything from entering the ebb from the lid to entering from the 
Side of the res tank! I did this to allow me to clean the res with taking it all apart.


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 13, 2012)

Cg how did you get these little bastards?


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## afrawfraw (Jan 13, 2012)

_Buchnera aphidicola is a bacteria transmitted from mommy aphid to baby aphid. This bacteria supplies the aphid with the amino acids REQUIRED to feed. These two species CAN NOT live without each other. Destroy the bacteria, destroy the aphid. A simple antibiotic inoculation will sterilize the aphids, which will remove their ability to digest the root juices. So they starve. I suspect these Azatrol/Azomax products have this included. I would if I designed a product. _


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## mellokitty (Jan 13, 2012)

*lighting a prayer candle for cg's room* (sorry, can't help ya, RA's are one of my biggest fears.)

just out of curiosity..... i guess you're looking for a granolahead-friendly way to control them?


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## collective gardener (Jan 13, 2012)

Hit tray 2, which was in week 6.5, with Azomax at 15ml/gal. Harvested plants yesterday (7 days after application) and broke open rootball for inspection. All aphids were dead. Could not find a live one. This is not to say they weren't there. But, Azomax does work. 

Tested a Pyrithrin (sp) that contains sulfur on one plant. Plant seems fine after 2 days. Going to hit everything with that stuff in a few days. I want to wait 7 days after the Azomax treatment.

I think I can knock this infestation back. My yield has taken a big hit. I'll get around 50% what I should've. Late diagnoses killed us. I thought it was overwatering, at first. Then I thought it was a mag def. It wasn't until my fucking dick head neighbor told me he had root aphids that I took action. My first mite free crop gets root aphids. I haven't had a pest free crop yet. 

I guess Azomax will be used to prevent these fucks. Maybe one full dose and some weekly 1/4 strength doses? Any prevention ideas?


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## Wolverine97 (Jan 13, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Hit tray 2, which was in week 6.5, with Azomax at 15ml/gal. Harvested plants yesterday (7 days after application) and broke open rootball for inspection. All aphids were dead. Could not find a live one. This is not to say they weren't there. But, Azomax does work.
> 
> Tested a Pyrithrin (sp) that contains sulfur on one plant. Plant seems fine after 2 days. Going to hit everything with that stuff in a few days. I want to wait 7 days after the Azomax treatment.
> 
> ...


Spinosad. Azamax alone won't control them long term, trust me...
Spinosad is not a "chemical" insecticide, it's created from a bacteria IIRC. There aren't any special precautions to using it either, which is nice. Approved for edibles, and most importantly it works. Azamax will work at first, but if any escape the first couple of rounds you're in for a battle.


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 13, 2012)

So the aphids grow a amunities like spidermights to the azamax


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## Wolverine97 (Jan 13, 2012)

hellraizer30 said:


> So the aphids grow a amunities like spidermights to the azamax


That was my experience with them. Only once I put a multi-pronged control program in place was I able to get rid of them. Good riddance.


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## sharpshoota (Jan 13, 2012)

anybody ever try zero tolerance?? 

cg,
whats your calcium supplment?


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## Beansly (Jan 13, 2012)

sharpshoota said:


> anybody ever try zero tolerance??
> 
> cg,
> whats your calcium supplment?


Zero Tolerance is good stuff, but I don't think if it'll work on root aphids. It kills aphids and white flies on contact. Pretty sure it would do the same to spider mites.


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## Wolverine97 (Jan 13, 2012)

sharpshoota said:


> anybody ever try zero tolerance??
> 
> cg,
> whats your calcium supplment?


Not personal experience, but a friend told me that it almost killed a crop of his...


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## sharpshoota (Jan 13, 2012)

that wierd, i thought it would be safer... its made from oils of cinnamon, clove, rosemary and thyme. 
i used a garlic/pepper spray on the outs this past year... good for bugs, not pm tho.
which spectricide is CG using do any of you know?

matt rize has a pretty good concoction on his veganic thread. page 161.


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## SFguy (Jan 13, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 1979634Harvest time again. Here's a rack of bubba. This is the tightest node spacing we've ever had from Bub.
> 
> 
> View attachment 1979642Here's the Tahoe. It's easy to see why the Tahoe is more expensive.
> ...


looks the same as my larry, i cant really find any good info regarding the two can you clarify the diffrence? i dont particularly care if it is 100% accurate, just for piece of mind, maybe a storie or two


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## stonestare (Jan 13, 2012)

From what I have read it appears that they quickly gain a tolarance to pesticide and from reading I would suggest using another approach at the same time so you are sure to get them dead. There are fungusas out there that penatrate the substrate and grows in there without harm to the plant. Thats why I suggested it on the page before this 1.


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## Fnominon (Jan 14, 2012)

I think you should just hit all your veg and maybe even early flower with Avid. The stuff is really nasty, but after fighting thryps and spider mites for over a year organically I finally gave in and pulled out the WMD. I applied it on all my veg crop and my early flower twice three days apart and sprayed safer product every few days on my late flower crop until I harvested it. The end result, I haven't seen any pest damage in over 5 months and I haven't sprayed one thing in over 4. The stuff is terrible, but to be 100% pest free it was worth it.


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## collective gardener (Jan 14, 2012)

Fnominon said:


> I think you should just hit all your veg and maybe even early flower with Avid. The stuff is really nasty, but after fighting thryps and spider mites for over a year organically I finally gave in and pulled out the WMD. I applied it on all my veg crop and my early flower twice three days apart and sprayed safer product every few days on my late flower crop until I harvested it. The end result, I haven't seen any pest damage in over 5 months and I haven't sprayed one thing in over 4. The stuff is terrible, but to be 100% pest free it was worth it.



This is great advice. I, too, broke out the WMD for the mites...Floromite. Holy shit that stuff works! I'm harvesting my last mite crop right now. All crops behind it were floromited, and have ZERO mites. But, it's totally targetted to kill just mites...won't even kill predator mties. Does Avid kill soil born pests? If so, I'm all over it.


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## Wolverine97 (Jan 14, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> This is great advice. I, too, broke out the WMD for the mites...Floromite. Holy shit that stuff works! I'm harvesting my last mite crop right now. All crops behind it were floromited, and have ZERO mites. But, it's totally targetted to kill just mites...won't even kill predator mties. Does Avid kill soil born pests? If so, I'm all over it.


I'm tellin ya man, spinosad. It's not turrible like Avid, and the stuff works.


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## recirculator (Jan 15, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> This is great advice. I, too, broke out the WMD for the mites...Floromite. Holy shit that stuff works! I'm harvesting my last mite crop right now. All crops behind it were floromited, and have ZERO mites. But, it's totally targetted to kill just mites...won't even kill predator mties. Does Avid kill soil born pests? If so, I'm all over it.


I'm not specifically aware of whether or not avid would kill root aphids...however what I do know about avid is that it is intended as a foliar spray, and that it is a trans-laminar product so it stays in the leaf when applied, however it is not systemic so it wont "travel" through your plants...I'm not sure I'd want to water the cubes with avid since for one thing i'm pretty sure it's not intended to be applied in that manner and the lasting effect that it has vs spider mites and thrips is due to it saying in the leaf so who knows whether it would "stick around" in the cube. I've had decent success knocking them down by dunking 4" rockwool cubes (i was flowering in those cubes on tables) in a solution of ambush which is a pyrethrin based insecticide. I'd dunk a cube just before flowering and if they ever came back it was late enough not to be a problem.

BTW if you do end up playing with avid, suit up properly including mask and total body protection keep others out and stay away while venting for a good while.

GL

Edit : the makers of Avid warn against using it through any "irrigation system"...I guess this might be a warning against introducing it into the soil...I'd try anything else first personally.


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## collective gardener (Jan 15, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> I'm tellin ya man, spinosad. It's not turrible like Avid, and the stuff works.


I'll apply it. We have a buttload of it still on the shelf from when we were treating for thrips...which Spinosad works GREAT on. Basicaslly, every Sunday, when we normally flush, we'll be treating the medium with some sort of anti bug juice. This will start with Azomax and Pyri's, and taper to something mild like Spinosad for the preventative stage. It really just makes sense. We spray the leaves, we spray the room, why not spray the medium.


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## Joedank (Jan 15, 2012)

I mix oregano oil (go gnats by hydroorganics) and neem oil 50-50 and add 3ml per gallon as a root drench ... Works greatCan be sprayed as a top dressing of sorts but I avoid smelly things on my leaves ... Spinosad is great as is BT ... Néem has been shown to go systemic as well so.... Other defences as well.
http://web.pppmb.cals.cornell.edu/resourceguide/mfs/08neem.php

Excerpt: Active neem constituents can be absorbed through plant roots and systemically move upward through the plant through xylem tissues (Gill and Lewis 1971, Larew 1988, Nisbet, et al. 1993, Osman and Port 1990). This works best when sufficient quantities are applied to the root zone. Systemic effects are much less apparent from foliar sprays. Different plant species also differ widely in their ability to have systemic effects from neem. Neem constituents last much longer within the plant than when sprayed on the leaves. However, over time they will be diluted by growth.


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## Fnominon (Jan 16, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> This is great advice. I, too, broke out the WMD for the mites...Floromite. Holy shit that stuff works! I'm harvesting my last mite crop right now. All crops behind it were floromited, and have ZERO mites. But, it's totally targetted to kill just mites...won't even kill predator mties. Does Avid kill soil born pests? If so, I'm all over it.


I have not had root aphids so I have not tried it on soil, however when I sprayed my plants I would also topically spray the top of the soil "back then" and I didn't have any troubles. Doesn't haveing crops with out mites just make you want to start dancing around the flower room? I am not a hippie, but I hate useing any pesticides I wont eat anything that wasn't organicly grown, but for my medicine I would rather hit the plants with a WMD early in its life and be done with those pests than spray "organic" pestisides every three days through out the entire flower period hoping to just keep the edge on the buggers.


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## Fnominon (Jan 16, 2012)

recirculator said:


> I'm not specifically aware of whether or not avid would kill root aphids...however what I do know about avid is that it is intended as a foliar spray, and that it is a trans-laminar product so it stays in the leaf when applied, however it is not systemic so it wont "travel" through your plants...I'm not sure I'd want to water the cubes with avid since for one thing i'm pretty sure it's not intended to be applied in that manner and the lasting effect that it has vs spider mites and thrips is due to it saying in the leaf so who knows whether it would "stick around" in the cube. I've had decent success knocking them down by dunking 4" rockwool cubes (i was flowering in those cubes on tables) in a solution of ambush which is a pyrethrin based insecticide. I'd dunk a cube just before flowering and if they ever came back it was late enough not to be a problem.
> 
> BTW if you do end up playing with avid, suit up properly including mask and total body protection keep others out and stay away while venting for a good while.
> 
> ...


Thank you for pointing out the hazmat gear requirement. I would suggest tyvek, but since I didn't have any of that I wore layers of coveralls and threw them into the wash directly after spraying. I also wore a 3M half mask respirator with overkill cartarges. I wasn't aware of that avid was trans-laminar that is excellent info!


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## collective gardener (Jan 18, 2012)

A friend in here is sending me some Avid. You know who you are, and thank you SOOO much. He sent me the Floromite, which is like magic. I, too, would rather hit them with the most powerful tool I can find early in life and not need to apply weaker shit deep into bloom. Prevention can not take place with a big infestation. So, I'll Tyvek up and Avid my life. It will also give me a powerful secondary mitacide for any mites getting used to the Floromite. Wife and I broke out the bleach yesterday and did a big cleaning. I haven't been clean enough throughout this whole process. With a perpetual harvest I need to be especially clean all the time. I do not want to switch to a batch schedule...even though every commercial grower I know runs batches. 

Thank you everyone for the wonderful advice. I plan to use most of your ideas in some sort or another. One thing I've learned about pests is that a broad range of products can be very effective. We plan on using the big guns until we're confident the major infestation is gone. We'll then try out the nematodes and Spinosad for a bit in a few plants to see if either one of those can be an effective preventative measure. My blue sky outcome would be to use predators for mites, nematodes or Spinosad for the roots, and avoid the PM with atmosphere control and ultra clean practices. Whether or not this will work with todays Super Bugs remains to be seen.

I can tell you this: 99% those big growers coming into Harborside with pounds and pounds of clean buds are using Floromite and Avid. If their buyers really wanted to be sure no Big Guns were used, they'd actually want to see some signs of insects...just not an infestation. Unfortunately, with the amount of $$$ at stake, you just cannot count on a grower's word that no Nukes were used. I could have my op inspected and convince anyone we're totally organic. Just give me a day to settup the scene. It's really sad. I will not ever use these nasty 2 products beyond week 2 of bloom. I know for a fact that many big growers use these products every 2 weeks all through the cycle. Their plants are beautiful...too beautiful. They're just the kind of plants the Harborside buyers like.


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## Fnominon (Jan 18, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> A friend in here is sending me some Avid. You know who you are, and thank you SOOO much. He sent me the Floromite, which is like magic. I, too, would rather hit them with the most powerful tool I can find early in life and not need to apply weaker shit deep into bloom. Prevention can not take place with a big infestation. So, I'll Tyvek up and Avid my life. It will also give me a powerful secondary mitacide for any mites getting used to the Floromite. Wife and I broke out the bleach yesterday and did a big cleaning. I haven't been clean enough throughout this whole process. With a perpetual harvest I need to be especially clean all the time. I do not want to switch to a batch schedule...even though every commercial grower I know runs batches.
> 
> Thank you everyone for the wonderful advice. I plan to use most of your ideas in some sort or another. One thing I've learned about pests is that a broad range of products can be very effective. We plan on using the big guns until we're confident the major infestation is gone. We'll then try out the nematodes and Spinosad for a bit in a few plants to see if either one of those can be an effective preventative measure. My blue sky outcome would be to use predators for mites, nematodes or Spinosad for the roots, and avoid the PM with atmosphere control and ultra clean practices. Whether or not this will work with todays Super Bugs remains to be seen.
> 
> I can tell you this: 99% those big growers coming into Harborside with pounds and pounds of clean buds are using Floromite and Avid. If their buyers really wanted to be sure no Big Guns were used, they'd actually want to see some signs of insects...just not an infestation. Unfortunately, with the amount of $$$ at stake, you just cannot count on a grower's word that no Nukes were used. I could have my op inspected and convince anyone we're totally organic. Just give me a day to settup the scene. It's really sad. I will not ever use these nasty 2 products beyond week 2 of bloom. I know for a fact that many big growers use these products every 2 weeks all through the cycle. Their plants are beautiful...too beautiful. They're just the kind of plants the Harborside buyers like.


I am juggling the idea of going to a monthly harvest program myself vs the perpetual harvest. I like the perpetual because that keeps the work load constant and harvests small enough for 2-3 people to tackle in a timely matter. The down side is in the efficiency, I am not able to mix up a weeks worth of nutrients at a time, I water by hand because setting up automated drippers on all four stages and reservoirs would be a logistical nightmare. I don't think you will need to worry about pests anymore after you treat a couple times with Avid. I run a sealed room and I wont allow any plants or cuttings from outside in my room which has been enough to prevent any reoccuring infestations. Like I said before I really hate using hard chemicals, but the stuff works that good.


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## jyermum (Jan 19, 2012)

I swear by the spinosad now for budworm control outside. BT, neem and soaps are nothing in comparison. The stuff was good enough for me to ditch the old honey badger pic for an avatar and start using Captian Jack off of the Dead Bug Brew (spinosad) bottle. 
.
.
.
...and dude's working the whole Magnum PI thing to the max


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## collective gardener (Jan 20, 2012)

jyermum said:


> I swear by the spinosad now for budworm control outside. BT, neem and soaps are nothing in comparison. The stuff was good enough for me to ditch the old honey badger pic for an avatar and start using Captian Jack off of the Dead Bug Brew (spinosad) bottle.
> .
> .
> .
> ...and dude's working the whole Magnum PI thing to the max


I've had great luck with Spinosad for thrips. I will be using it as a part of our preventative program. Until then, it will be pure poisen.

The Captain's stash is bad ass. That's pure 70's fireman stash. Remember that cat on Emergency? The goofy guy with the thick ass stash. Bad ol Boys.


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## curious2garden (Jan 20, 2012)

CG I just HAD to post and (besides thanking you), ask you what the recent strain you gave me was? The first 1/2 ounce you gave me I'd take 1 puff and it would potentiate my morphine for 4 days! Seriously 1 puff of what you gave me was able to reduce my morphine intake anywhere from 50% to 75% for FOUR (4) days!! It was so strong. I still have a considerable portion left because it was so effective.

The new batch, another generous amount again, you gave me is incredibly more potent. I would call it an order of magnitude more potent. Hubby was so funny he kept repeating, "I don't feel anything", during the fourth repeat, he simply fell horizontal, mid-sentence, snoring and slept solid for the rest of the night. It was then I noticed that colors were changing etc.... I further noticed my body was NUMB! NUMB!! No pain nothing it was wonderful. I nestled into the recliner with this wonderful, warm, peaceful feeling washing over me like a comfy, familiar, blanket and slept without any interruption for the first time in 2 decades.

This new stuff you gave me is so much stronger it's scary strong. Anyway is this all the same strain? How do you select for strength? Yours is also pleasant to smoke. How do you accomplish that? I had tried some from the local dispensaries and not only was it painful to smoke but it did little for my pain. What you do is incredible. I am still stumbling along with my own minor grow so it just amazes me to no end you can grow something this consistently effective for pain. You really know your stuff and I am so grateful I found you.


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## jyermum (Jan 20, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> The Captain's stash is bad ass. That's pure 70's fireman stash. Remember that cat on Emergency? The goofy guy with the thick ass stash. Bad ol Boys.



Had to google the show but it all came back in a second once I saw the main guys pic's  

http://www.bobfireman.com/Bob&sq51web.jpg


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## collective gardener (Jan 21, 2012)

jyermum said:


> Had to google the show but it all came back in a second once I saw the main guys pic's
> 
> http://www.bobfireman.com/Bob&sq51web.jpg


Here's the stash I was thinking of. The characters neme is "Chet": http://www.emergencyfans.com/people/tdonnelly1.jpg


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## collective gardener (Jan 21, 2012)

curious2garden said:


> CG I just HAD to post and (besides thanking you), ask you what the recent strain you gave me was? The first 1/2 ounce you gave me I'd take 1 puff and it would potentiate my morphine for 4 days! Seriously 1 puff of what you gave me was able to reduce my morphine intake anywhere from 50% to 75% for FOUR (4) days!! It was so strong. I still have a considerable portion left because it was so effective.
> 
> The new batch, another generous amount again, you gave me is incredibly more potent. I would call it an order of magnitude more potent. Hubby was so funny he kept repeating, "I don't feel anything", during the fourth repeat, he simply fell horizontal, mid-sentence, snoring and slept solid for the rest of the night. It was then I noticed that colors were changing etc.... I further noticed my body was NUMB! NUMB!! No pain nothing it was wonderful. I nestled into the recliner with this wonderful, warm, peaceful feeling washing over me like a comfy, familiar, blanket and slept without any interruption for the first time in 2 decades.
> 
> This new stuff you gave me is so much stronger it's scary strong. Anyway is this all the same strain? How do you select for strength? Yours is also pleasant to smoke. How do you accomplish that? I had tried some from the local dispensaries and not only was it painful to smoke but it did little for my pain. What you do is incredible. I am still stumbling along with my own minor grow so it just amazes me to no end you can grow something this consistently effective for pain. You really know your stuff and I am so grateful I found you.


Wow. Thank you very much. The strain is Pre-98 Bubba Kush. Access to this strain is what made me want to get back into growing full time. The guy who gave me the cuts is on a lifetime quest for the best genetics anywhere. He has since given me 2 other elite strains. These genetics are the foundation of what we do. Without them we would just be another commercial grow op. Not to brag, butI have tried the Bubba Kush at dozens of so cal dispensaries and none of it was close to the quality that we grow. No serious buyer has ever turned down an Lb or a 5 pack of this Bub. We are lucky to have it. 

As good as the Pre-98 is, the new D-Bub is better. The buds are bigger, the plants are healthier, and the smell is a bit stronger. All we know is that the mom of the D-Bub is our Pre-98, and it may have been back crossed again with the Pre-98. So, it's between 50% and 75% Pre-98, and the rest is a secret the breeder keeps. The only downside of the D-Bub is that it's a light, nute, and water hog. Deprive it of anything and the buds end up quite smaller than they would otherwise. It's a plant best grown hydro.

The new Tahoe is our super star. All we know is that a Tahoe pheno was selected from hundreds sewn. That was crossed with a Chem 91, the great grandfather of all OG's. The result is simply amazing. Everyone I give it to smells it and says "Finally, a real full blown OG". I started buying grams of OG's from other dispensaries to see how ours measured up. It wasn't even close. That Tahoe is the best OG out there hands down. I have already turned down 2 very good offers for a tray of cuts from it. Right now I won't sell a cut for any price. It's these genetics that make our little collective kind of special. We don't want to give that away.

Anyways, thanks again for the kind words. I'm glad the meds help you. Let me know when you need more...as always, on the house.


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## tommyo3000 (Jan 22, 2012)

Hey CG, I like to spray this shit on and around the grow buildings.. and in.. just not on the plants... This is cheap and awesome.
http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/cyonara-97-p-428.html


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## collective gardener (Jan 27, 2012)

This Tahoe pic looks just like the Tahoe seed advertisement.

The above pics show the bloom room. Tray one is bubba at 7-8 weeks. These were seriously stunted with root aphids. 

Tray 2 is at 2 weeks. These too took a root aphid hit. Most ended up short on mag. I believe problem is now under control. Most yellowing has greened up. The brown, of course, is brown forever.

Since mag needs to be very abundant (even though uptake is very light) it's the first to show with most root problems. I used massive mag on roots and as foilar spray to keep these plants just alive.


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## kamie (Jan 27, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 2022701View attachment 2022702View attachment 2022703View attachment 2022704View attachment 2022705View attachment 2022706View attachment 2022707View attachment 2022708View attachment 2022709This Tahoe pic looks just like the Tahoe seed advertisement.
> 
> The above pics show the bloom room. Tray one is bubba at 7-8 weeks. These were seriously stunted with root aphids.
> 
> ...


even with the problem youre having they still look great CG


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 27, 2012)

Looking good cg


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## tommyo3000 (Jan 27, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> These were seriously stunted with root aphids.
> 
> Tray 2 is at 2 weeks. These too took a root aphid hit. Most ended up short on mag. I believe problem is now under control. Most yellowing has greened up. The brown, of course, is brown forever.
> 
> Since mag needs to be very abundant (even though uptake is very light) it's the first to show with most root problems. I used massive mag on roots and as foilar spray to keep these plants just alive.



Not sure how your root aphid problem is going but this stuff is from lowes and it works wonders on root aphids and fungus gnat larvae. It is very cheap and works well.. It has a pre-harvest interval that is short, so you can use during some parts of flower. I have run it in a reservoir before, too..

http://www.bayeradvanced.com/insects-pests/products/fruit-citrus-vegetable-insect-control


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## Wolverine97 (Jan 27, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> View attachment 2022701View attachment 2022702View attachment 2022703View attachment 2022704View attachment 2022705View attachment 2022706View attachment 2022707View attachment 2022708View attachment 2022709This Tahoe pic looks just like the Tahoe seed advertisement.
> 
> The above pics show the bloom room. Tray one is bubba at 7-8 weeks. These were seriously stunted with root aphids.
> 
> ...


I hear ya, it's pretty crazy to me just how badly they affect nutrient uptake.


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## curious2garden (Jan 27, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> ......snip......
> The above pics show the bloom room. Tray one is bubba at 7-8 weeks. These were seriously stunted with root aphids.
> 
> Tray 2 is at 2 weeks. These too took a root aphid hit. Most ended up short on mag. I believe problem is now under control. Most yellowing has greened up. The brown, of course, is brown forever.
> ...


WOW is all I can say. This is just beyond beautiful! My perfectly healthy ones don't look near as good as your problem children. You are simply amazing.


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## jyermum (Jan 27, 2012)

curious2garden said:


> WOW is all I can say. This is just beyond beautiful! My perfectly healthy ones don't look near as good as your problem children. You are simply amazing.


So true. The b grade out of this garden is still top shelf.


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## collective gardener (Jan 28, 2012)

Thanks for all the nice comments. I will be trying some of that Bayer product. After an exhaustive inter-web search, I've found some facts about root aphids:

1. They are a new problem in weed gardens. Very little info about them prior to 2010.
2. They are FAR worse than spider mites, thrips, and reg aphids combined! Left un treated, or treated late, the entire crop is at peril. From early mag def signs to total crop loss can be as little as a few days. 
3. They thrive in extremely airy mixes. Commercial J uses rockwool croutons and 30% #4 perlite in 10 qt containers. When we split a root ball in half, the inner medium was almost solid black with aphids and aphis bodies. Infestation in rockwool blocks happens slower. A friend who drip feeds Hydrotons went from the first signs to total loss in 4 days. 
4. The 3 most recommended treatments are Azomax, Pyrithrum, and Bayer. The key is maximum insect toxicity and minimum plant effect. This makes Azomax a poor choice. It does kill them, but the plant takes a hit. Pyrithrum is great if you can just get the 5% pyri in water concentrate. Do not use oil suspended stuff. I have not tried the Bayer.
5.I believe that the best treatment is Avid. Avid is a hardcore broad spectrum insecticide that can be sprayed on the leaves as well. This is important as those fuckers run right up the plant when the roots are treated. Avid does not hurt the plant AT ALL when used at 8 oz per 100 gallons of water. Avid is also a great second insecticide next to Floromite for mites. 
6. High N super charges the infestation. Try to cut the N way down and load up on the Cal Mag during treatment. Instead of pure water on Sunday flush day, I use 500ppm of Cal Mag. This with foiliar spray can help reverse the chlorosis.
7. No matter what, if the aphids have caused visable damage, yield will be affected. I would consider a 30% yield reduction lucky. Depending on what stage the fucks hit you, it could make sense to just toss the plants and start over.
8. CLEAN YOUR ROOM!!!!


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## mellokitty (Jan 28, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Thanks for all the nice comments. I will be trying some of that Bayer product. After an exhaustive inter-web search, I've found some facts about root aphids:
> 
> 1. They are a new problem in weed gardens. Very little info about them prior to 2010.
> 2. They are FAR worse than spider mites, thrips, and reg aphids combined! Left un treated, or treated late, the entire crop is at peril. From early mag def signs to total crop loss can be as little as a few days.
> ...


what a fantastic post. 
i feel like a villager who's learned that the polio has spread to the next town over..... we are quaking with fear about them.


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## kamie (Jan 28, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Thanks for all the nice comments. I will be trying some of that Bayer product. After an exhaustive inter-web search, I've found some facts about root aphids:
> 
> 1. They are a new problem in weed gardens. Very little info about them prior to 2010.
> 2. They are FAR worse than spider mites, thrips, and reg aphids combined! Left un treated, or treated late, the entire crop is at peril. From early mag def signs to total crop loss can be as little as a few days.
> ...


i dont kno if this is a stupid question, but how do you get root aphids? i just wanna know so i can take precautions to keep my rooms clean and root aphids free.


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## curious2garden (Jan 28, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Thanks for all the nice comments. I will be trying some of that Bayer product. .....snip....




Thank you CG for such good information. I immediately went to learn about the Bayer product, just in case. I thought I'd post what I found since it might be of interest to others.

It's active ingredient is Imidacloprid, which is a Neonicotinoid. Here is some about that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid

Then the link to the actual product documentation on Bayer:
http://www.bayeradvanced.com/insects-pests/products/fruit-citrus-vegetable-insect-control/sizes

Thank you so much with your honest and up front attitude in this. So many professional growers would try to hide these things and that just makes it worse. These issues are another good reason why I think you are so right when you said we need some type of Cannabis Growers group/lobby. Best practices could be shared and memorialized to help others and ensure safety of the end user and the grow room workers etc...


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## SFguy (Jan 30, 2012)

wow CG thats horrible, a good friend lost 1/2 his crop too root aphids, its a shitty thing watching them die slowly, he didnt know what was wrong untill they were already too far gone, just necrotic, black dead plant tissue everywhere


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## koolshades (Jan 31, 2012)

Is 8oz of Avid per 100 gallons fairly strong? We've used 1/2 tspn in a gallon before for spraying. My friend runs a 250 gallon DWC system with rockwool in 8 inch net pots. He got root aphids and dipped each plant with their long roots in a 5 gallon bucket with water and Avid and also sprayed everything a few times. It looks like it's under control now. Could he just add some Avid to the Rez if they come back?


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## collective gardener (Jan 31, 2012)

koolshades said:


> Is 8oz of Avid per 100 gallons fairly strong? We've used 1/2 tspn in a gallon before for spraying. My friend runs a 250 gallon DWC system with rockwool in 8 inch net pots. He got root aphids and dipped each plant with their long roots in a 5 gallon bucket with water and Avid and also sprayed everything a few times. It looks like it's under control now. Could he just add some Avid to the Rez if they come back?


Avid calls for 8 to 16 oz/100 gallons for aphids. That's approx 1oz per 12 gallons. It reduces to about 4ml per gallon. Dipping the rootbal is the way to go. But, with a DWC settup it would be super important to treat the whole system at same time. Personally, I would treat all the rez water and dip the plants at the same time. Then, a week later, I would top flush the rockwool filled net pots with Avid again. Then, a week later, I would treat the whole system with Pyrithrum twice. A 250 gallon system is going to make complete coverage treatments very expensive. But, if you just treat the plants, there could still be aphids and larva in the water, just waiting for the plants to come back. This is yet another reason most commercial gardens use drain to waste systems. I recently purchased a CAP EBB and Flow bucket system for fun. After puting it together it became obvious it was not for me for just these reasons. 

The beauty of Avid is that it's so easy on the plants. I wouldn't take any chances with root aphids. Pull out all the stops right off the bat.


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## mike91sr (Jan 31, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> I wouldn't take any chances with root aphids. Pull out all the stops right off the bat.


Good advice. I learned the same thing the hard way with spider mites. Trying to do as little as I could to get rid of them just made the treatments drag on for 2 months, and even though I kept them mostly under control, they didn't fully go away until I finally said fuck it and starting rotating treatments of azamax, pyrethrin sprays/bombs, and neem oil. But by then the damage was still done.


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## Fnominon (Jan 31, 2012)

I have a half gallon sprayer and I would only put in a quarter teaspoon of Avid in it for each run. After two treatments all my spider mites and thryps were gone for good, "I think its been about 4 or 5 months now."


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## jyermum (Jan 31, 2012)

mike91sr said:


> Good advice. I learned the same thing the hard way with spider mites. Trying to do as little as I could to get rid of them just made the treatments drag on for 2 months, and even though I kept them mostly under control, they didn't fully go away until I finally said fuck it and starting rotating treatments of azamax, pyrethrin sprays/bombs, and neem oil. But by then the damage was still done.


Like you found out its a big mistake to go easy on grow pests. I had a spidermite population that would use Floromite as mouthwash and aftershave. By trying to use just enough and not too much I wound up making a colony of super bugs. now when anything shows up I hit 'em hard and rotate treatments.


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## jpill (Feb 1, 2012)

What up Collective! Man i'm like 10 pages in and going to keep reading ! . Fucking 230 pages is brutal ! I'm in the middle of starting a delivery service and have a non-profit already in place although it hasn't really taken off , the business is there. I'm currently trying to relocate to a commerical warehouse in SLO. Its a smaller warehouse with 3 phase power, an office and bathroom, roll-up doors. I was wondering if you could give me some pointers on the scheme of things and what to expect as far as building by code.

My partner is an old head with 15 years of electric and AC experience . Only problem is he lives in a non medical state and is going to make the push out here. I am flying him out here in a few months and were going to get to work. Dealing with only residential areas this is a totally new experience to me. If you have time could you school me on a few mistakes not to make ?! If not its cool, i figured i'd ask you as you're one of the only people on here really doing it on a large scale and legit. I think you said something about the sheriff coming around ? I expect a visit from good old johnny law should I also expect the fire chief as well? As far as building by code , that's not a problem I would rather build correctly and avoid costly future mistakes. Did you go by code or just build! Did anyone (inspectors, fire chief) they come in and eye fuck the shit out of your room looking for mistakes?lololol. just a few Q's for ya. I appreciate the journal as this would def. serve a basis to my project ! 
Thanks again in advance. Also if you need patients , let me know i'll sign up for your collective.


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## InsaneMJ (Feb 1, 2012)

I got a question, using the bayer advance in the resi how much is it per gallon? Also I'm curious on the avid? How effective is it on aphids?


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## recirculator (Feb 2, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> I recently purchased a CAP EBB and Flow bucket system for fun. After puting it together it became obvious it was not for me for just these reasons.


Before you chuck your system...consider how nice of a drip system (recirculating or drain to waste) it makes...simply leave the controller on drain mode, add drippers (I use the DRIP CAPS on 4" cubes on top of 6" cubes), run your return hose to a drain (for DTW obv.) and elevate the plant buckets about an inch off the floor for better drainage.

I built a E&G styles system and decided I hated hydroton and found the croutons even worse so I decided to convert it to a recirculating drip as described above and am super happy with it.

When I needed to build a second system I made a "drain only" controller using a 5 gallon bucket with a Little Giant RS-5LL diaphragm switch.

Regarding the CAP system itself, I'm not aware of how the buckets are built, but I know the one from Green Trees (called multi flow) has lower buckets designed to drain really nicely. The bottom is slanted towards a recessed area where the hose fitting goes. Go look at their website you'll see what I mean. http://www.hydroponics.net/i/273005
If the Cap is similar that's great but if not the plants may have too much water sitting underneath them in my opinion.

I built mine with drains on the bottom for that very reason. If they had buckets like the green trees at the time I built mine, I'd have just bought that system instead of building my own. I also didn't want 1/2" plumbing now they seem to have changed that to 3/4" too.

Happy Happy and careful with those WMD


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## jpill (Feb 2, 2012)

well CG , after reading another 20 pages you pretty much answered my questions ! thanks for the thread ! Super knowledgable !


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## collective gardener (Feb 3, 2012)

Here's a few pics for the gang:



I guess the theme is really "perpetual". I'm one of a small handful of growers who runs a perpetual. If you look at the pics you'll se we have several plants in just about every stage of growth. The key in our op is to always have plants ready to go into bloom. The last of the heavily stunted plants are flushing. Everything else is looking quite well. The nute pics show how easy it can be.


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## kamie (Feb 3, 2012)

Hey CG, just finishing up week 7 with floranova bloom, floralicious plus, dry koolbloom, and yellow bottle final bloom and they started to foxtail. last run during week 7 i only used over drive and yellow bottle final bloom with no foxtail. you think the foxtail will make a big impact on yield and quality? what are your thoughts on foxtail? good or bad? thanks


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## jpill (Feb 3, 2012)

bloom yellow bottles "final" and "ooze" are great products IMO.


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## Fnominon (Feb 4, 2012)

Hi CG, Thanks for the pictures with the nute rack, I always like to see what others are using. One thing I noticed absent on your shelf was a silicate? Do you not use silica blast or similar product? I also have to agree with jpill your advice to start using yellow bottle final has increased yields and quality bringing the plant back to life at the very end. I find that it adds about a week of growth and flushing leading to a superior product. I really appreciate all this information you give away freely on your forum, I have adopted your canopy system as well and the results I am getting are incredible.


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## Tony18 (Feb 4, 2012)

Hey CG i noticed in your nute shot that you dont have a root enhancer. any reason why? I personnaly recomend GH Rapid Start its really good great results.


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## tommyo3000 (Feb 4, 2012)

InsaneMJ said:


> I got a question, using the bayer advance in the resi how much is it per gallon? Also I'm curious on the avid? How effective is it on aphids?


I think this is a do at your own risk kinda thing... I did somewhere between 5mL and 15mL per gallon .... Not sure, but I may have run it for a day or two or three...
I remember reading everything I could about the main ingredient, looking up other products and working it out...

I used it for fungus gnats... Not sure how effective it is for aphids, but it is mainly used for aphids. 

This product makes spider mite problems WORSE... Not sure how much, but it is in the literature out there... It is systemic, too.. So it will kill root aphids, fungus gnat larvae, and then go systemic and keep whiteflies and shit away.. but not spider mites...


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## collective gardener (Feb 4, 2012)

OK. Lots of Yellow Bottle Bloom talk. I have been playing with this stuff for a while. One thing for sure, this is an extremely powerful additive that can help you or hurt you...depending on when you use it. First off, what does it do? Well, in a nutshell, it forces new bud growth. I have used it before flush, in flush, and in week 5ish. Before the flush it can start new growth right through the existing bud and really fuck up bag appeal. Although new weight is there, it's not worth it. During flush it can add a little weight with no effect on bag appeal. 

The best way to use it IMO is right after the plant stops the fapid growth phase around weeks 4-6. Basically, when the pistils are still clear white, but growth has slowed. I have found that Final can promote an additional 10 days of that rapid growth phase. Any foxtailing is incoorporated into the initial bud mass and does not affect bag appeal. It's best described as a "rapid growth extender". I keep pouring it on until the plant has given all it can and the pistils start to dry up. At this point a graduated flush begins. 

I know I have promoted using it differently in previous posts. Like any powerful additive is takes testing to identify its best uses. Furthermore, the way different strains react can vary greatly. DO NOT just do what I do. Chances are it won't work as good as if you do some testing on your strain in your room. 

I advise having AT LEAST one test going and no more than 3 going all the time. I do testing as a single elimination. I am not looking for some huge result. I am looking for 20 very small improvements over the course of years in the same room. Here's some of my rules for testing:

1. Isolate test plants under their own light if possible. I have a couple 600's used just for testing. 
2. Use at least 2 test plants and 2 control plants. I like either 2 on 2 or 3 on 3. 
3. Test only one thing. A single variable is an absolute necessity. 
4. After a successful test, repeat it with more plants before applying to entire crop. Yes, it takes time. But, it's the prudent path. 
5. Have fun. Run only as many tests as you can while still having fun. Currently I'm not running any tests because I'm in the middle of a complete shop renovation. Testing now would consume time I don't have. That's not the attitude I want when testing. 

Many folks will see that I've changed many things since starting this op. Part of this is because I had taken some time off growing before setting up this show and many things have changed. Part of this is because every room and every strain is different. Testing is just a part of the growing process. The industry is moving forward as a whole. If you're holding still, you're losing ground. Continued improvement is a necessity to survival. I don't care if you're pulling 1.5 grams/watt of the best OG. If you stop improving, you'll soon be overtaken. We are the R&D in this industry. Any one of us can discover a new method or technique. 

Good luck to everyone with thier testing. Please be sure to share what you've learned.


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## kamie (Feb 4, 2012)

Hey cg, are you using 600 watts for the mothers?


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## Fnominon (Feb 4, 2012)

I will share what I have learned so far with the Yellow bottle with the two strains I have tested it on; White Widow and a NL x Trainwreck strain. The White Widow does the best with it at week 6.5 to 7 if I wait until after week 7 the plant is to far gone for the stimulating effect to take hold. Application around day 45 will cause growth to start right back up and I use this growth spurt to deplete the nutrient stores in the plant and soil along with the flushing, so far I have not had any odd bud formation with the widow. 

My NL x Trainwreck I have been using the same way as the widow and the growth results are excellent, however, with this strain the main top buds tend to grow vertical forming a tear drop shaped bud that looks sort of odd. I am going to try and advance the use of it to week 5 and see if this helps round out the formation of the buds, my only fear is combining this product with nutrients. I know when I used gravity by Humboldt in the past while still running nutrients the plant would get sever nutrient burn, growth would grind to a complete halt, and the plants would stop up taking water. I have also just began running yellow bottle on my first widow coco grow with first application beginning at week 7 and flushing is now underway.


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## kamie (Feb 4, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> OK. Lots of Yellow Bottle Bloom talk. I have been playing with this stuff for a while. One thing for sure, this is an extremely powerful additive that can help you or hurt you...depending on when you use it. First off, what does it do? Well, in a nutshell, it forces new bud growth. I have used it before flush, in flush, and in week 5ish. Before the flush it can start new growth right through the existing bud and really fuck up bag appeal. Although new weight is there, it's not worth it. During flush it can add a little weight with no effect on bag appeal.
> 
> The best way to use it IMO is right after the plant stops the fapid growth phase around weeks 4-6. Basically, when the pistils are still clear white, but growth has slowed. I have found that Final can promote an additional 10 days of that rapid growth phase. Any foxtailing is incoorporated into the initial bud mass and does not affect bag appeal. It's best described as a "rapid growth extender". I keep pouring it on until the plant has given all it can and the pistils start to dry up. At this point a graduated flush begins.
> 
> ...


Yellow Bottle is some powerful stuff. first run was week 7 with over drive and final. this run was week 7 with nutes mixed in. i have another room thats finishing up week 4. im planning to use it during week 6 and see how it goes. mine has that new growth which looks pretty cool. my colas look way bigger than last week. When you used it during week 5 did you use it with nutes or did you use it during week 5 flush? i will try to get some pics up for you on how mine looks when i get the chance. thanks for all the information CG, information like this helps out everyone


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## InsaneMJ (Feb 5, 2012)

Yikes I did something like 2 oz per gallon I think that's around 75 ml lol? No sight of any bugs for 4 days strong now. Plants dont look like they've taken a big either, still flowering on schedule.


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## Fnominon (Feb 5, 2012)

InsaneMJ said:


> Yikes I did something like 2 oz per gallon I think that's around 75 ml lol? No sight of any bugs for 4 days strong now. Plants dont look like they've taken a big either, still flowering on schedule.


2 oz of what? I think flushing would be in order regardless.


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## collective gardener (Feb 5, 2012)

The Gravity is totally different than Final. I have found that Gravity can affect quality. I am now just adding the Final to my reg nutes around week 5ish. It's very obvious when my plants begin to slow down. I go from daily waterings to every other day. Thats when I use the Final. Within a couple days I'm back to daily waterings. 

Yes, I'm using a 1000 watt ballast for my mothers dimmed to 600 watts. More than enough power.


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## Fnominon (Feb 5, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> The Gravity is totally different than Final. I have found that Gravity can affect quality. I am now just adding the Final to my reg nutes around week 5ish. It's very obvious when my plants begin to slow down. I go from daily waterings to every other day. Thats when I use the Final. Within a couple days I'm back to daily waterings.
> 
> Yes, I'm using a 1000 watt ballast for my mothers dimmed to 600 watts. More than enough power.


I wouldn't be surprised to find that gravity effects the quality of the final product and I am not much of a fan of it. The only time I use it now is when my plants seem to be running a bit long "over 9 weeks" and I want them to finish quickly. I actually quit using it for a long time, however, with the yellow bottle adding additional growth time I find that it may be useful if you want to accelerate the finish or in some cases with yellow bottle even out the finish time. It is reported to be a flower hardener and may put on weight, but these results are definitely strain dependent. When I used it on my skunk strain it seemed to put on weight, my trainwreck x NL strain gravity will make the nugs much denser, and my white widow strain it pretty much just kills the plant. Like the Yellow Bottle Final its a powerful product that I do not recommend for beginners and I am extremely cautious with its application.


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## tommyo3000 (Feb 5, 2012)

InsaneMJ said:


> Yikes I did something like 2 oz per gallon I think that's around 75 ml lol? No sight of any bugs for 4 days strong now. Plants dont look like they've taken a big either, still flowering on schedule.



I would switch out that erz if it has been 4 days.. bugs should be dead, and this stuff lasts a while residually....


Glad it worked!!


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## hellraizer30 (Feb 5, 2012)

Hey cg when you start finale in week 5 for how low do yo add it?


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## koolshades (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you for the advice on the Avid. You have a Great Journal. I have read every page and learned tons of info from everybody.


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## collective gardener (Feb 6, 2012)

hellraizer30 said:


> Hey cg when you start finale in week 5 for how low do yo add it?


Just a few days. Basically, I keep hitting the plant till rapid pistil growth and heavy water intake starts up again...then I stop dosing with final. On average this is 3 days...3 doses. If the plants are only getting watered every other day, I use the max dose of Final...if they are watered every day I use max/2. Just keep in mind, a single dose of that shit will show results. 

To Cali Final users: A little bird tells me several Yellow Bottle products will soon be unavailable in California.


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## hellraizer30 (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks cg and that sucks for all you cali user


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## InsaneMJ (Feb 6, 2012)

Cali's awesome, besides for all these regulations. They keep on renaming or puttin up and taking down new products every couple of months it seems like..


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## jpill (Feb 6, 2012)

CG, Which types of Yellow Bottles are we talking about ? The bottles containing Tricontonal ? Thanks for the heads up. Also have you ever thought about using
"Grow Biotic" organic nutrients from the guys in Santa Barbara. They sell it at stop in grow. I've read the labels and its pretty potent stuff for being organic It kicks the shit out of a lot of these name brand canna specific nutrients. Of course I would mix Grow Biotic in with a few synthetics but hey, i want to get that weight !



collective gardener said:


> Just a few days. Basically, I keep hitting the plant till rapid pistil growth and heavy water intake starts up again...then I stop dosing with final. On average this is 3 days...3 doses. If the plants are only getting watered every other day, I use the max dose of Final...if they are watered every day I use max/2. Just keep in mind, a single dose of that shit will show results.
> 
> To Cali Final users: A little bird tells me several Yellow Bottle products will soon be unavailable in California.


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## kamie (Feb 6, 2012)

Hey Cg, have you started on the floranova tests? i see them in your pics, just havent read your thoughts on it. Are you still using yellow bottle roots? i'm choppin in a few days i'll let you know how the floranova did.


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## C.Indica (Feb 6, 2012)

I've searched everywhere and can't find a similar image,
CG, can you identify bugs that move as tiny brown slivers, appearing as dirt,
and scatter evenly throughout the plant, but no webs?


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## mellokitty (Feb 6, 2012)

^^sounds like thrips^^


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## hellraizer30 (Feb 6, 2012)

yep it does sound like thrips


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## C.Indica (Feb 7, 2012)

Thank god they didn't make it to my cannabis,
Caught those fuckers all OVER my Tree Philodendron, and a Crown of Thorns.

Poor Philodendron got hacked to a stump and booted to the cold Northwest Winter Outdoors.
Gonna search thrips, the Philo' leaves were so damn thick I couldn't see regular Thrips damage.
That got way out of hand.

:Badass, thrips they were.
Thanks for the ID.

Was about to make a Habanero Spray if I see them make a recovery in the future,
This would work, yes?


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## hellraizer30 (Feb 7, 2012)

Thrip are easy to kill mighty wash is death to them


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## C.Indica (Feb 7, 2012)

Well I have three fat Habanero's in my fridge, and I'd love to not only save myself
an expensive store-trip, but also handle it without Product.
Just wondering if the pepper spray would work.

Although I'm quite positive nothing made it near my indoor garden (crossing fingers)


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## collective gardener (Feb 7, 2012)

Spinosad will actually fuck up thrips. As with all pests, I would hit them3 times with 3 different methods. Mighty wash, Avid, Spinosad.


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## patrickkawi37 (Feb 7, 2012)

fml that means I have thripes too. I found a few plants with mites and one of them was so bad the pistols are turning brown. I thought I was on it, little bastards snuck right by me. I sprayed mighty wash, all I had at the house. My buddy said to do 2 more times 3 days apart. I also have this safer3 in 1 stuff, should I use that as well? I am day 29 now, I was thinking of going and grabbing some azamax, that seems to handle it for me everytime but I don't know if i should stay away this far in? I want to get the problem handled best way possible. I'm currently not running an AC cause I have a wall unit and trying to stay sealed. Room temp is 83ish when lights on depending on how cold it is outside. Not too bad for four 1ks getting cooled by an 8in fan, but I'm thinking the temps may be why I'm getting bugs so bad? Maybe one or two applications of floramite or azamax would keep me clear the next 30 days. Rambling sorry, any opinions would be great


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## Wolverine97 (Feb 7, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Spinosad will actually fuck up thrips. As with all pests, I would hit them3 times with 3 different methods. Mighty wash, Avid, Spinosad.


Yes it will. I'm actually chiming in here to admit a mistake... earlier in this thread I encouraged you to use spinosad for you root aphid problem. I had my wires all crossed, I had used the spinosad on thrips, not the aphids. It's been bugging me, so I had to fess up.


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## SFguy (Feb 7, 2012)

mellokitty said:


> i'm glad you got to meet simon, it's rather a privilege knowing him (and his brain); i figure share the wealth, right? since he was in your neck of the woods. i'm loving how that worked out:
> "hey do you know anybody else that might be willing to beta-test this line?"
> "well i can think of *one* person off the top of my head who's running nute experiments and has a keen interest in organics, but a) i've never met him and b) he's in cali...."
> "i'm going to cali soon, hook us up!"
> ...



WHATS THIS HOOO HUMMM I HEAR?? i like experiments =)


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## koolshades (Feb 8, 2012)

Spring and heat are coming. Anybody doing any research and have a recommendation as where to buy a 2 ton mini split AC unit?


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## C.Indica (Feb 8, 2012)

Collective Gardener;

Have you ever Bloomed under an EYE Hortilux Blue MH?
Or what bulb have you had the best success with?

I think you mentioned some sort of HPS with a Blue Addition?


& Would it be possible to get a 400w Phantom Ballast, dim it to 250w, and use it with a 250w Bulb?


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## Fnominon (Feb 9, 2012)

koolshades said:


> Spring and heat are coming. Anybody doing any research and have a recommendation as where to buy a 2 ton mini split AC unit?


I have been doing a lot of research lately, my portable AC finally failed, and my room temps are now getting into the low 90s with CO2. I am running 5k air cooled and would like to work towards bare bulbs so I was looking at 2 ton AC as well. It seems the only way to go is mini-split unless you can get a central air system, that may work as well. Minisplitwarehouse.com seems to have some good deal, and they advertise in growing mags so I know they support medical growers. The problem I have run into is that I am in a rental and up here in the Pacific NW external AC units are almost unheard of. I am not to afraid of law enforcement since I am sticking to my numbers and at worse might face scrutiny for my breaker panel, however, my property management would probably give me the boot if they found out. I was wondering if anyone has tried putting the condenser unit in a crawl space? I was thinking about doing that and then running the air off my lights into that space to keep the air recirculating. The CFMs on one of the outdoor units are huge I think in the ball park of 3000 cfm so I am not sure if the unit would overheat in a 3-4' crawl space? Does anyone have any experience disguising outdoor units?


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## TheLastWood (Feb 10, 2012)

I'm not a big fan of hps bulbs. Kinda the "brute force" method as opposed to "the right tool for the job" method. Hps put out intense amounts of light, very little in the correct spectrum. Lumens, watts per square foot, footcandles, are all "baseline guides" to knowing how much light your puting out. I am after the PAR. Photosynthetically Active Radiation, the amount of light that triggers growth............. its a highly debated topic, I definately don't take sides with the Led loonies. But spectrum is everything. If you have the right spectrum and the power of an HID, you see the results. This is why I run CMH. They only go up to 400w tho, if I were running 1k watts, I would go with a 4-4500k MH or some kind of MH that has a bit more of the red spectrum......... or do what cg says and do hps mh hps mh. I like running the same bulbs tho. The blue spectrum in flower does wonders for resin production too.


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## C.Indica (Feb 10, 2012)

TheLastWood said:


> I'm not a big fan of hps bulbs. Kinda the "brute force" method as opposed to "the right tool for the job" method. Hps put out intense amounts of light, very little in the correct spectrum. Lumens, watts per square foot, footcandles, are all "baseline guides" to knowing how much light your puting out. I am after the PAR. Photosynthetically Active Radiation, the amount of light that triggers growth............. its a highly debated topic, I definately don't take sides with the Led loonies. But spectrum is everything. If you have the right spectrum and the power of an HID, you see the results. This is why I run CMH. They only go up to 400w tho, if I were running 1k watts, I would go with a 4-4500k MH or some kind of MH that has a bit more of the red spectrum......... or do what cg says and do hps mh hps mh. I like running the same bulbs tho. The blue spectrum in flower does wonders for resin production too.



Honestly, I've been wanting to go CMH forever, but when I compared the true (Not the advertised) color spectrum
of the CMH bulb, vs the EYE Hortilux Blue, both 250w, I saw a better wave of blues & reds, with the EYE MH.

Also more lumens. & Easy to pick up local.

I've been looking at PAR T5's, and the ONLY thing that stopped me was the price of a full lineup of PAR bulbs when it comes time to replace them.

I can replace the MH for about 100, but an 8 bulb PAR set would run me 150+.

I don't like HPS at all really.. I'd much rather use the EYE MH, but CG does mention some HPS with a ton of Blue in it.


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## norcal1970 (Feb 11, 2012)

Hi CG and All,

I am new to this forum and I see you get your room humidity down below 40%.

How do you keep your humidity so low. I have a 12 in canfan for exhaust running 24/7 and a 10 in canfan for intake running during the day and I can't get my humidity below 75 during light and 60 during night.

I have a fantech 100 pint dehumidifier which has done nothing to change the humidity and I am doing drain to waste with coco with 10k watts. What am I missing here? I live in Norcal. My room temps range from 65-80.

How can I get my humidity below 50%. Your feedback and anyone else's is greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Norcal1970


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## Wolverine97 (Feb 11, 2012)

norcal1970 said:


> Hi CG and All,
> 
> I am new to this forum and I see you get your room humidity down below 40%.
> 
> ...


If you're venting that much outside air through your space, you won't be able to control humidity beyond the outside RH. The dehumidifier can do nothing because there's a constant supply of fresh humid air coming in, it can't keep up. Seal your space, air condition, and then you can control RH. I still think 40 is too low for ideal growth, I keep mine 50-60.


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## norcal1970 (Feb 11, 2012)

Thanks Wolverine97- 

I will try that but, but how do I bring in fresh air so that the air and CO2 is being replaced in the room. I don't want to run a CO2 system. Should I run the fans in intervals in order to bring fresh air into the room and run AC as much as needed to keep temps and RH in check? With the fans off the room is essentially sealed, at least to the point where an AC unit will control things.


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## Wolverine97 (Feb 11, 2012)

norcal1970 said:


> Thanks Wolverine97-
> 
> I will try that but, but how do I bring in fresh air so that the air and CO2 is being replaced in the room. I don't want to run a CO2 system. Should I run the fans in intervals in order to bring fresh air into the room and run AC as much as needed to keep temps and RH in check? With the fans off the room is essentially sealed, at least to the point where an AC unit will control things.


That's the best way to handle your setup, yes.


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## collective gardener (Feb 12, 2012)

OK. I just read a bunch of posts and will try to address most of em:

On thrips and brown pistils: DO NOT USE SAFER or AZOMAX on plants with pistils showing!!! It will cook the pistils. There are very few sprays that will not do this. Ironically, the 2 most effective mite sprays will not cook pistils...Avid and Floromite. I would not make it a habit of spraying budding plants, but one spray to arrest an infestation may be needed.

On Bulbs: This is one area I have tested EXTENSIVELY over the years. I have a Hortilux Eye Daylight Blue in veg. It works great for early veg when tight node spacing is important. It is not very bright. The light is only 80,000 when brand new...opposed to 110,000ish for most MH. For small, but fast growing plants, Daylight Blue rocks. If you're veging plants over 12" I would go with a brighter light.

In Bloom 2 HPS for every 1 MH on a over is the best way to go hands down. BUT, it's a pain in the ass and really linits your lighting settup. So, I prefer using blue enhanced HPS bulbs. The old Horti Eye HPS are great. The new CAP Digilux HPS are better. My 6 month old CAPs are brighter than a brand new Horti. The important thing is to match light distance to the strain. I recently discovered that my Bubba's prefer a little less light. 32" is the magic number for them. But, the OG's like 24". Play with the distance for best results. 

As for moving air and humidity, sounds like a few speed controlers will enable you to dial in your room. Harbor frieght sells router speed controllers for $13. By slowing the airflow you'll allow the AC and/or dehumidifiers to work.


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## C.Indica (Feb 12, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> OK. I just read a bunch of posts and will try to address most of em:
> 
> On thrips and brown pistils: DO NOT USE SAFER or AZOMAX on plants with pistils showing!!! It will cook the pistils. There are very few sprays that will not do this. Ironically, the 2 most effective mite sprays will not cook pistils...Avid and Floromite. I would not make it a habit of spraying budding plants, but one spray to arrest an infestation may be needed.
> 
> ...


Thanks a ton for taking this time to help,
but I'm afraid I need to clarify..

I'm building a 250w setup, for personal supply.
One bulb, one reflector, one ballast.

I was thinking of blooming under the EYE Hortilux Blue, but if you can suggest a better STANDALONE bulb for 250w bloom,
then I'm all ears. I knew you of all people have likely the most HID experience around.

So for a single bulb flower cab, would you suggest an HPS with blue, or a straight up EYE MH?

& also, 
can I use a 400w ballast, dimmed down to 250w, and plug in a 250w bulb? Or will that cook it?
If not I'll just get a 250w ballast.

Thanks a ton, I've never played with HID yet.


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## patrickkawi37 (Feb 12, 2012)

Got some floramite at a local shop. Cg it may not be too far from you..I'm day 33, I sprayed azatrol and mighty wash. Still have a few mites and eggs, should I spray floramite? The guy at the store told me he would mess with it past week 2 cause the taste will stay in your plants no matter if you spray off after. I was thinking maybe if I ph my water a little off and spray the floramite that it may not allow the plants to fully soak up the shit but may still kill the bastards? Any help would be great? And was wondering anyone that does use it mid flower how many drops or mls per liter you are using?


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## Jozikins (Feb 12, 2012)

Hello everyone, long time no talk. Right now I'm immersed in my epic battle against Root Aphids. But I think things just turned in my favor. I've been using mainly good old fashioned neem as my root drench, haven't been brave enough to use a extra strong h2o2 bath yet, but it was working a little bit, but not much to be honest. This last time, about 3 days ago, I combined Soy Lecithin with the mix in an attempt to better emulsify my neem into the water. I've been using biodegradable dish soap and it works decent, but the lecithin seems to work a little bit better, but it was a combination, still haven't tried it standing alone yet. However, so far, I haven't seen a single god damned root aphid, not a single one, and my plants look happy. *I do not recommend anybody try this until I am done experimenting with this*, but so far this seems to be a huge break through for me! I'm concerned though, my plants aren't drinking as fast as they were, they've been decently wet since I gave them water and I'm afraid this may be caused by the lecithin and a possible lock out. I'll see if they drink up by tomorrow, if not, it's flush time and I'll be thinking of new ways to destroy the pests. Just to note it was powdered lecithin, I think liquid would have been a better emulsifier. I know soy lecithin is high in P/K and maybe the abundance of that is causing the lock out, I'm not sure if it can even be taken up by the plants.

If this doesn't work though, I am trying h2o2, if that doesn't work, I'm trashing everything, scrubbing all my equipment with bleach and storing it all for 1 month to make sure everything is dead. I will start over with seeds and stick to only my stock, unless a friend has properly quarantined a clone for 1 month. And even then I'm not sure how safe I feel taking something else on. I have 550 seeds off my last cross, so I'll just be using that. It makes me so sad to let go of my legends: SFV OG and Grape Krush crinkle pheno.


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## Refusedpanda (Feb 13, 2012)

I just bough some Botanigard ES, this shit is supposedly the bomb against root aphids. I don't have them yet, but got this in case those bastards decide to show up.


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## Fnominon (Feb 13, 2012)

Jozikins said:


> Hello everyone, long time no talk. Right now I'm immersed in my epic battle against Root Aphids. But I think things just turned in my favor. I've been using mainly good old fashioned neem as my root drench, haven't been brave enough to use a extra strong h2o2 bath yet, but it was working a little bit, but not much to be honest. This last time, about 3 days ago, I combined Soy Lecithin with the mix in an attempt to better emulsify my neem into the water. I've been using biodegradable dish soap and it works decent, but the lecithin seems to work a little bit better, but it was a combination, still haven't tried it standing alone yet. However, so far, I haven't seen a single god damned root aphid, not a single one, and my plants look happy. *I do not recommend anybody try this until I am done experimenting with this*, but so far this seems to be a huge break through for me! I'm concerned though, my plants aren't drinking as fast as they were, they've been decently wet since I gave them water and I'm afraid this may be caused by the lecithin and a possible lock out. I'll see if they drink up by tomorrow, if not, it's flush time and I'll be thinking of new ways to destroy the pests. Just to note it was powdered lecithin, I think liquid would have been a better emulsifier. I know soy lecithin is high in P/K and maybe the abundance of that is causing the lock out, I'm not sure if it can even be taken up by the plants.
> 
> If this doesn't work though, I am trying h2o2, if that doesn't work, I'm trashing everything, scrubbing all my equipment with bleach and storing it all for 1 month to make sure everything is dead. I will start over with seeds and stick to only my stock, unless a friend has properly quarantined a clone for 1 month. And even then I'm not sure how safe I feel taking something else on. I have 550 seeds off my last cross, so I'll just be using that. It makes me so sad to let go of my legends: SFV OG and Grape Krush crinkle pheno.


I haven't had root aphids, but I did get thryps and spider mites from a clone and I will never do that again. Perhaps try using some Yellow Bottle Final on your plants in flower to see if that will help get them drinking again. Were calling the Yellow Bottle zombie juice because it brings dead plants back to life.


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## collective gardener (Feb 13, 2012)

C.Indica said:


> Thanks a ton for taking this time to help,
> but I'm afraid I need to clarify..
> 
> I'm building a 250w setup, for personal supply.
> ...


I would use a 400 watt system (including bulb) dimmed to 250. This gives you some expansion options. For bulbs, the Horti HPS (pink box for digital ballasts) are alot of bang for the buck, but the Digilux HPS by CAP is the best in my opinion. 



patrickkawi37 said:


> Got some floramite at a local shop. Cg it may not be too far from you..I'm day 33, I sprayed azatrol and mighty wash. Still have a few mites and eggs, should I spray floramite? The guy at the store told me he would mess with it past week 2 cause the taste will stay in your plants no matter if you spray off after. I was thinking maybe if I ph my water a little off and spray the floramite that it may not allow the plants to fully soak up the shit but may still kill the bastards? Any help would be great? And was wondering anyone that does use it mid flower how many drops or mls per liter you are using?


I would not spray Floromite at day 33. Did the Azomax fuck up your plants at 33 days? It's pretty hard on budding plants. 



Jozikins said:


> Hello everyone, long time no talk. Right now I'm immersed in my epic battle against Root Aphids. But I think things just turned in my favor. I've been using mainly good old fashioned neem as my root drench, haven't been brave enough to use a extra strong h2o2 bath yet, but it was working a little bit, but not much to be honest. This last time, about 3 days ago, I combined Soy Lecithin with the mix in an attempt to better emulsify my neem into the water. I've been using biodegradable dish soap and it works decent, but the lecithin seems to work a little bit better, but it was a combination, still haven't tried it standing alone yet. However, so far, I haven't seen a single god damned root aphid, not a single one, and my plants look happy. *I do not recommend anybody try this until I am done experimenting with this*, but so far this seems to be a huge break through for me! I'm concerned though, my plants aren't drinking as fast as they were, they've been decently wet since I gave them water and I'm afraid this may be caused by the lecithin and a possible lock out. I'll see if they drink up by tomorrow, if not, it's flush time and I'll be thinking of new ways to destroy the pests. Just to note it was powdered lecithin, I think liquid would have been a better emulsifier. I know soy lecithin is high in P/K and maybe the abundance of that is causing the lock out, I'm not sure if it can even be taken up by the plants.
> 
> If this doesn't work though, I am trying h2o2, if that doesn't work, I'm trashing everything, scrubbing all my equipment with bleach and storing it all for 1 month to make sure everything is dead. I will start over with seeds and stick to only my stock, unless a friend has properly quarantined a clone for 1 month. And even then I'm not sure how safe I feel taking something else on. I have 550 seeds off my last cross, so I'll just be using that. It makes me so sad to let go of my legends: SFV OG and Grape Krush crinkle pheno.


Before you trash everything, use some fucking Avid. First dose wiped out 99% of my root aphids. Now I'm just mopping up the stragglers. Bayer Fruit and Veg is also quite good on the Root Aphids. Bottom line is any type of oil (neem, Azo, whatever) is very hard on the roots. You're better off with water borne pesticides for root drenches. Your plants are just fucked up from the neem. Let them dry out a little extra between waterings, feed with extra mag, cut back on K, reduce ppm, and raise/dim lights. You can limp them through for a partial harvest. My last one was approx 50% what it would have been without Root Aphids.



Refusedpanda said:


> I just bough some Botanigard ES, this shit is supposedly the bomb against root aphids. I don't have them yet, but got this in case those bastards decide to show up.





Fnominon said:


> I haven't had root aphids, but I did get thryps and spider mites from a clone and I will never do that again. Perhaps try using some Yellow Bottle Final on your plants in flower to see if that will help get them drinking again. Were calling the Yellow Bottle zombie juice because it brings dead plants back to life.


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## C.Indica (Feb 13, 2012)

*"I would use a 400 watt system (including bulb) dimmed to 250. This gives you some expansion options. For bulbs, the Horti HPS (pink box for digital ballasts) are alot of bang for the buck, but the Digilux HPS by CAP is the best in my opinion."

*I'm planning on;
Digilux 400w HPS
Phantom 400w Ballast
LumenAire 6" Reflector

But I have an old 400w Philips MH laying around,
is there a problem with using this Philips bulb with the digital ballast until I can get my hands on the Digilux?


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## patrickkawi37 (Feb 13, 2012)

Sorry about not being able to quote I'm going to have to work on that hah. I'm on my phone so it's sketchy. CG I sprayed mighty wash when I saw the problem over ten days ago and that shit is a waste of money IMO. 40 bucks a bottle for a ready to use gallon. Then I used the azamax twice, first time I sprayed, they didn't dig it but the pistols were not completely screwed. But after the 2nd time they were lookin pretty boo boo. I waited 3 days and saw some bastard eggs. Sprayed floramite this afternoon during lights off, went in when they came on and they look like as if I didn't spray. I'm going to spray them with that power wash stuff tomorrow when lights go off, hoping that will take some of the nasty shit out of my buds. Shame on me for letting them get that bad :/. I think I'm going to credit card myself a mini split ac this week, hopefully if I can get temps down a little they bugs will leave me alone. I was wondering your opinion on my temps, if I'm at 83-87 lights on and 79-82 with them off are my nugs going to suck? I can't seem to get it cool lights off. I have a wall unit but I don't want to turn it on and mess up my co2. Other then it just not being fun at all to hangout in there, they seem to growing insane. All though I don't have much to compare to since this is my first co2 run. It's snowing now so maybe I'll get a good week and be at 80 lights on lol. 1580 for a 2 ton mini split at home depot, I need a job hah


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## Fnominon (Feb 14, 2012)

patrickkawi37 said:


> Sorry about not being able to quote I'm going to have to work on that hah. I'm on my phone so it's sketchy. CG I sprayed mighty wash when I saw the problem over ten days ago and that shit is a waste of money IMO. 40 bucks a bottle for a ready to use gallon. Then I used the azamax twice, first time I sprayed, they didn't dig it but the pistols were not completely screwed. But after the 2nd time they were lookin pretty boo boo. I waited 3 days and saw some bastard eggs. Sprayed floramite this afternoon during lights off, went in when they came on and they look like as if I didn't spray. I'm going to spray them with that power wash stuff tomorrow when lights go off, hoping that will take some of the nasty shit out of my buds. Shame on me for letting them get that bad :/. I think I'm going to credit card myself a mini split ac this week, hopefully if I can get temps down a little they bugs will leave me alone. I was wondering your opinion on my temps, if I'm at 83-87 lights on and 79-82 with them off are my nugs going to suck? I can't seem to get it cool lights off. I have a wall unit but I don't want to turn it on and mess up my co2. Other then it just not being fun at all to hangout in there, they seem to growing insane. All though I don't have much to compare to since this is my first co2 run. It's snowing now so maybe I'll get a good week and be at 80 lights on lol. 1580 for a 2 ton mini split at home depot, I need a job hah


 I have been in your shoes before and I know how dreadful it can be to see your hard work get eatten up. In my opinion running CO2 your temperatures are good, I find low 80's to be beneficial when running 1400ppm CO2. As far as your bugs go I would be more concerned with your hummidity. Back when I had spider mites I know they loved hot temps with really low hummidity. I would recommend running as high hummidity as you can with out risking mold to slow down the spider mites and as far as all those sprays go in my experience they don't work worth a damn. I am really seriously into being organic, but if you have an infestation just kill them eggs and all with Avid. Obviously don't use it on your plants late in flower, and when I used the stuff I disclosed the fact to all my collective members. You can find better prices on mini-splits online if you don't mind having them shipped to you as well.


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## patrickkawi37 (Feb 14, 2012)

I appreciate the reply. That's great to know that a high humidity is going to help cause I can't get it below 50 without it really getting hot (87-90). I think that's my biggest problem with heat is my 3 dehumidifies. I have a 90 pint, a 50, and a 35. No ac and pulling the 20 degree air from outside to cool the lights it's a mess haha. And after all my mess they still look huge. People just been telling me that if I can't get the temps cooler during lights off it might effect my quality:/ can have that. Also you were saying that you disclose that you've sprayed to vendors if have, that's admirable as hell if your getting bent over like most of us in Socal are right now. This is my first run having a real bug problem and having to spray this late, I'm going to be bummed if they taste like bug spray


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## Jozikins (Feb 14, 2012)

Quick update. Neem and Soy Lecithin is a bad idea, the lecithin just made the oil stick to my grow medium like crazy. I'll be flushing tomorrow, they haven't had a sip since the first few hours after feeding, and the pots are still real heavy, and it looks really wet, but the surface is super oily, so I think it's a neem build up. I'll be taking your advice after the flush and use some of the recommended products.


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## collective gardener (Feb 16, 2012)

Your temps aren't too bad. I've ran that hot before with great results. It's really strain dependant as far as how the lights off temps will affect buds. A 10 degree differential is actually good. Sealed rooms really need effective AC. The mini split will be the best investment you can have. Everyone I know with mini splits don't even need dehumidifiers. I run my RH in bloom between 40% and 60%. Hit em with some Spectracide if you think PM will be an issue.It will not fuck up the pistils or flavor. 

Avid and Floromiteare the best mite sprays out there. Try dipping the smaller plants for total coverage. I cannot believe that Floromite didn't kill the mites. It only kills adults...but it kills for a long time (3 weeks ish). When a plant is properly treated with Floromite the eggs will hatch, the mite will take its first step, and then die like the slimy bastard it is. The only time Floromite will not kill all live adults is when they've become immune to it. This happens from just spraying with Floromite, and not alternating other effective mitacides. Killing mites is a process. If you just spray once or twice, all you'll do is create super mites immune to your sprays. Then those mites will go out and eat other people's grows. I also spray all non plant surfaces with Ortho Home Defense once per month. This stops the movement of the mites. You may also want to remove the most heavily infested leaves. These are typically lower and less efficient leaves. Their loss will not be felt by the plant much. Good luck and do not let up on those fuckers. Give em hell.


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## Ty13 (Feb 16, 2012)

koolshades said:


> Spring and heat are coming. Anybody doing any research and have a recommendation as where to buy a 2 ton mini split AC unit?


I picked up a Shinco "Staight outta Compton!" LOL That's where it came from at least. It's a 24K BTU(2-TON) Mini Split A/C w/Heater, dehuy etc. for about $1,200 total but FREE shipping!
http://www.minisplitwarehouse.com/product/shinco 24,000 btu dc inverter mini split heat pump air conditioner


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## tommyo3000 (Feb 17, 2012)

Ty13 said:


> I picked up a Shinco "Staight outta Compton!" LOL That's where it came from at least. It's a 24K BTU(2-TON) Mini Split A/C w/Heater, dehuy etc. for about $1,200 total but FREE shipping!
> http://www.minisplitwarehouse.com/product/shinco 24,000 btu dc inverter mini split heat pump air conditioner


those are good


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## sfttailpaul (Feb 17, 2012)

BiteSizeFreak said:


> You have a doctors note for 99 plants?! Where the hell do you live cause I'm moving tomorrow?!
> 
> Subscribed.


99 plants is the standard allowance for a cultivator in California. I have one license and my wife has one so we can grow 198 plants (mature) under those 2 licenses'. I can transport 8 lbs. and my wife a kool 20 lbs.! I also have another recommendation from my pain control specialist (M.D.) and feel that even with all the "legalities" I still say that one needs to keep it quiet. Just 'cause the Fed's aren't knockin' on my door, some hood rats could easily cause me grave harm...


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## sfttailpaul (Feb 17, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Your temps aren't too bad. I've ran that hot before with great results. It's really strain dependant as far as how the lights off temps will affect buds. A 10 degree differential is actually good. Sealed rooms really need effective AC. The mini split will be the best investment you can have. Everyone I know with mini splits don't even need dehumidifiers. I run my RH in bloom between 40% and 60%. Hit em with some Spectracide if you think PM will be an issue.It will not fuck up the pistils or flavor.
> 
> Avid and Floromiteare the best mite sprays out there. Try dipping the smaller plants for total coverage. I cannot believe that Floromite didn't kill the mites. It only kills adults...but it kills for a long time (3 weeks ish). When a plant is properly treated with Floromite the eggs will hatch, the mite will take its first step, and then die like the slimy bastard it is. The only time Floromite will not kill all live adults is when they've become immune to it. This happens from just spraying with Floromite, and not alternating other effective mitacides. Killing mites is a process. If you just spray once or twice, all you'll do is create super mites immune to your sprays. Then those mites will go out and eat other people's grows. I also spray all non plant surfaces with Ortho Home Defense once per month. This stops the movement of the mites. You may also want to remove the most heavily infested leaves. These are typically lower and less efficient leaves. Their loss will not be felt by the plant much. Good luck and do not let up on those fuckers. Give em hell.


Absolutely the truth, thank you.
I also found this neat trick. Get cellulose sponges. Cut like 3/4" wide strips. Wrap around the stem at the base about 1-1/2" above grade. Hold in place with ties. Wet down daily with whatever you are spraying the leaves with. Stops the bastards from migrating. That's how they get from plant to plant. They have to crawl, and this "miticide strip"doughnut keeps them from escaping and climbing on to a new plant. I use a square with a hole from a hole punch in the middle on a new cutting. This way it's already on the plant as she is put into big pot for flowering. ALSO don't let leaflets touch. They can migrate there too!
Best to everyone who has any bugs! We will never win the war, but we can and do, win battles...


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## sfttailpaul (Feb 17, 2012)

patrickkawi37 said:


> Sorry about not being able to quote I'm going to have to work on that hah. I'm on my phone so it's sketchy. CG I sprayed mighty wash when I saw the problem over ten days ago and that shit is a waste of money IMO. 40 bucks a bottle for a ready to use gallon. Then I used the azamax twice, first time I sprayed, they didn't dig it but the pistols were not completely screwed. But after the 2nd time they were lookin pretty boo boo. I waited 3 days and saw some bastard eggs. Sprayed floramite this afternoon during lights off, went in when they came on and they look like as if I didn't spray. I'm going to spray them with that power wash stuff tomorrow when lights go off, hoping that will take some of the nasty shit out of my buds. Shame on me for letting them get that bad :/. I think I'm going to credit card myself a mini split ac this week, hopefully if I can get temps down a little they bugs will leave me alone. I was wondering your opinion on my temps, if I'm at 83-87 lights on and 79-82 with them off are my nugs going to suck? I can't seem to get it cool lights off. I have a wall unit but I don't want to turn it on and mess up my co2. Other then it just not being fun at all to hangout in there, they seem to growing insane. All though I don't have much to compare to since this is my first co2 run. It's snowing now so maybe I'll get a good week and be at 80 lights on lol. 1580 for a 2 ton mini split at home depot, I need a job hah


Using CO2 and providing you get it to a steady 1400PPM +, some strains can take temps of 95 degrees F. Again, strain dependent. I have gotten this temp consistently with CO2 and no problems. Also, when I had bad, bad mites, I flooded the room and kept it there with almost 3000 PPM. Researched this and found this as effective if not better, than a bomb. IDK, I did loose them, but was it the spraying I did (used 4 kinds) or the "organic" pests, or the CO2 or the temps, or the humidity??? Or all the above.


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## Fnominon (Feb 18, 2012)

Hey CG,
I was wondering what your break down plan is in case of a required inspection? I have just been notified by my landlord that they wish to inspect my place for water leaks due to larger than normal water usage. I remember in the past you said you would most likely bring things down in the case of an impending inspection to prevent any unwanted drama. I am 100% with in our state laws, but I have a lease renewal coming up in just over a month and I do not wish to relocate just yet. I am harvesting as much as possible, but I have some very stinky plants that are not close enough to harvest and are about 5 feet tall on average. I am also in an area with high visibility. Any tips and advice would be greatly appreciated, I am very fortunate that the inspection probably wont happen until late next week.


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## Wurd (Feb 18, 2012)

Fnominon said:


> Hey CG,
> I was wondering what your break down plan is in case of a required inspection? I have just been notified by my landlord that they wish to inspect my place for water leaks due to larger than normal water usage. I remember in the past you said you would most likely bring things down in the case of an impending inspection to prevent any unwanted drama. I am 100% with in our state laws, but I have a lease renewal coming up in just over a month and I do not wish to relocate just yet. I am harvesting as much as possible, but I have some very stinky plants that are not close enough to harvest and are about 5 feet tall on average. I am also in an area with high visibility. Any tips and advice would be greatly appreciated, I am very fortunate that the inspection probably wont happen until late next week.


Hey man, I'm no CG but I have the same situation you do. My landlord is probably worse though, he stops by every few months. He thinks it's nice to stop by and say hi which is fine but he's older and I know he's not gonna understand growing in the basement even though I'm well within my limit in WA. Anyway, he always gives me at least 24 hrs notice and I make whatever excuse I need to get him to stop by during the dark period. Before he arrives I rent a uhaul and back it up to our garage so nobody can see whats going in and out. I move all the plants to the uhaul stake and tie however I need to to keep them from getting damaged, then pack the equip. in and drive about 5 blocks away and park it. He arrives, I chat for a while, let him roam around, and when he leaves, I get the uhaul and reverse the process. 

The break down and reassembly is be a real pain because of the rush required to get it all done in time but it beats loosing the plants or not getting to renew lease. The timing can be tricky with the lighting but if you cut the lights off 30 mins early on the moving day and let them be exposed to the room light as you're packing them into the truck, you won't confuse them that much. The uhaul is totally dark so they will be fine for the dark period, just be conscious of the temp in the back of the truck. Leave them in the truck until the lit period is set to start again and reverse the process. Ideally they'll just be in the truck for 12 hrs and you'll be able to have everything set back up for them to get back on their regular light cycle. It's definitely a mad dash but I've done it maybe 5 or so times with no real problems. My landlord is actually so bad I use tents now and built custom carts on wheels so I could just roll the whole setups to the back of the van, and w the help of a friend lift the whole thing into the truck. 

Works like a charm and I still have my lease. Rents too low to lose it. Hope this helps.

Oh, and if you're worried about residual smell, cook something. I usually do pasta sauce, it makes the whole house smell like tomatoes and garlic.


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## patrickkawi37 (Feb 18, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Your temps aren't too bad. I've ran that hot before with great results. It's really strain dependant as far as how the lights off temps will affect buds. A 10 degree differential is actually good. Sealed rooms really need effective AC. The mini split will be the best investment you can have. Everyone I know with mini splits don't even need dehumidifiers. I run my RH in bloom between 40% and 60%. Hit em with some Spectracide if you think PM will be an issue.It will not fuck up the pistils or flavor.
> 
> Avid and Floromiteare the best mite sprays out there. Try dipping the smaller plants for total coverage. I cannot believe that Floromite didn't kill the mites. It only kills adults...but it kills for a long time (3 weeks ish). When a plant is properly treated with Floromite the eggs will hatch, the mite will take its first step, and then die like the slimy bastard it is. The only time Floromite will not kill all live adults is when they've become immune to it. This happens from just spraying with Floromite, and not alternating other effective mitacides. Killing mites is a process. If you just spray once or twice, all you'll do is create super mites immune to your sprays. Then those mites will go out and eat other people's grows. I also spray all non plant surfaces with Ortho Home Defense once per month. This stops the movement of the mites. You may also want to remove the most heavily infested leaves. These are typically lower and less efficient leaves. Their loss will not be felt by the plant much. Good luck and do not let up on those fuckers. Give em hell.


Sprayed 10 drops per liter of floramite and those bastards are back. I'm 2 hours away trimming and my buddy calls and tells me he's finding them and eggs. I read above about removing the fan leaves that we're previously raped so I told him to do that and to spray that bullshit mighty wash one more time. I think it might be thripes, the little bastards are so small i can't ever tell. but no more spraying I'm in for the long haul with those guys now. 
Cg I got to see another 20k other than what I've seen on here. It was awesome, I'm definitely setting some goals to try to work towards that myself. I couldn't help notice you guys have similar styles, seems you guys found what's really working well. He does the wings, instead of hoods, and I gota say after seeing them in action I am a fan! I did all the bargaining i could to get strains out of him, He didn't budge. For now . really see the work it takes to make that size go down, he doesn't even get high at work! Goal is before this years over to starting my own 20k thread and help people like you have. Thank you man


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## Budologist420 (Feb 18, 2012)

sfttailpaul said:


> 99 plants is the standard allowance for a cultivator in California. I have one license and my wife has one so we can grow 198 plants (mature) under those 2 licenses'. I can transport 8 lbs. and my wife a kool 20 lbs.! I also have another recommendation from my pain control specialist (M.D.) and feel that even with all the "legalities" I still say that one needs to keep it quiet. Just 'cause the Fed's aren't knockin' on my door, some hood rats could easily cause me grave harm...





Over 99 plants under federal law is minimum 4 yrs in prison. End of story


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## PakaloloHui (Feb 18, 2012)

Split them plants up on 2 pieces of property or heed the warning from above ^ post.


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## dragun (Feb 18, 2012)

i doest matter what you do if they really want to get you.if you are running 99 plants every three months.two and half years latter.over 1000 plants.ten years federal mandatory.and there all ready doing that.


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## PakaloloHui (Feb 18, 2012)

dragun said:


> i doest matter what you do if they really want to get you.if you are running 99 plants every three months.two and half years latter.over 1000 plants.ten years federal mandatory.and there all ready doing that.


Yes, That is also a true fact and statement.

I grow 6 at a time, that is my state limit, not trying to buck the system, just taking care of my medical needs not others.

I too would love to grow 99, but not until it is 100% legal by the states and feds. Oh yeah and I would need space for that many plants.


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## mellokitty (Feb 19, 2012)

Budologist420 said:


> Over 99 plants under federal law is minimum 4 yrs in prison. End of story


good call; i believe this is why cg is staying within the 99 count as well.....


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## Joedank (Feb 19, 2012)

Yeah 99 and shit is fine...
For sum reason outdoors the second I am over 99 I go straight to 1000... Greenhouse SOG style and double potting big containers not filled in


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## mellokitty (Feb 19, 2012)

Joedank said:


> Yeah 99 and shit is fine...
> For sum reason outdoors the second I am over 99 I go straight to 1000... Greenhouse SOG style and double potting big containers not filled in


that makes 120% sense. there's no sense in stepping a _little_ bit out of the safe zone.


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## Joedank (Feb 19, 2012)

I think I was reading that 199 is the new 99 in the states... 
And around July people come by the house daily in cali with 5-50 plants looking sad and forlorn one year I got 200 donations of purple erkle in august!! Almost too late but I squeezed em in an got a few pounds of purple November love last one came in the 22nd almost black and frosty just north of Laytonville .


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## mellokitty (Feb 19, 2012)

Joedank said:


> I think I was reading that 199 is the new 99 in the states...
> And around July people come by the house daily in cali with 5-50 plants looking sad and forlorn one year I got 200 donations of purple erkle in august!! Almost too late but I squeezed em in an got a few pounds of purple November love last one came in the 22nd almost black and frosty just north of Laytonville .


damn you cali, my last guerilla i didn't make it back to the site until halloween (<-- NOT planned for btw) and suffered a 50% loss to mold.


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## Joedank (Feb 19, 2012)

Wow you got weed and did not water!! I water 1000 gallon pots every other day cuz it never rains ... Your lucky there was a plant to look at ... Props
The difference in Colorado with rain each afternoon due to mountains means alot less sun and wAter also smaller less fruitful plants in the same or longer span...


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## mellokitty (Feb 19, 2012)

Joedank said:


> Wow you got weed and did not water!! I water 1000 gallon pots every other day cuz it never rains ... Your lucky there was a plant to look at ... Props
> The difference in Colorado with rain each afternoon due to mountains means alot less sun and wAter also smaller less fruitful plants in the same or longer span...


lol, yes, that IS one of the advantages of the wet coast. damping off, leafspot, stemrot, and that yellow spotty stuff (i forget what it's called) being the flipside. 
what is your elevation like in colorado? i heard that high elevations were supposed to be conducive to less yield but more resin?


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## newworldicon (Mar 16, 2012)

A couple of videos that may help you with induction lighting choices, I personally had the older 400W unit with little than 1000W success but it seems these newer units are the business...perhaps!! LOL.

[video=youtube;oPeQ2V6cuOA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPeQ2V6cuOA[/video]

Both these channels have plenty videos to pick apart and decide..


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## newworldicon (Mar 16, 2012)

[video=youtube;Rg-pAKxiwjE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg-pAKxiwjE&amp;feature=channel[/video]


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## C.Indica (Mar 16, 2012)

I want to mention that the increased density FUCKS the stability of that test.


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## collective gardener (Mar 18, 2012)

HPS light do not grow pretty plants. But, you can't sell pretty. I can grow a plant that looks perfectly healthy till the day we flush. But, it won't yield much. When I grow for weight (always), my plants are pushed so hard they suffer a bit. There are plenty of blemishes. But, the quality and the weight is there. It's the same with lighting. The induction lights may bloom a pretty plant, but pretty does not matter for shit.

This is not to take anything away from induction lighting. Only to say that people should never be interested in what "looks" healthy. They should stick to bud quality and weight.


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## GibbsIt89 (Mar 19, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> HPS light do not grow pretty plants. But, you can't sell pretty. I can grow a plant that looks perfectly healthy till the day we flush. But, it won't yield much. When I grow for weight (always), my plants are pushed so hard they suffer a bit. There are plenty of blemishes. But, the quality and the weight is there. It's the same with lighting. The induction lights may bloom a pretty plant, but pretty does not matter for shit.
> 
> This is not to take anything away from induction lighting. Only to say that people should never be interested in what "looks" healthy. They should stick to bud quality and weight.


U TELL EM CG lol


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## stonestare (Mar 23, 2012)

Hello stranger I got through my first grow and had damn good results.I didnt use canna based nutes didnt have the money to spend $100 for a gallon of an so I just used my compost added in fetilizer and let them grow. I dont think the dual bulb from hortilux hurt my yeild at all and hopefully in the next 6 months I can get to the west coast. Still trying to deal with a issue and hopefully it will come to rest so I can move. Take care and keep growing


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## collective gardener (Mar 25, 2012)

Probably time for some new pics. I do have a bunch of 40" D-Bubs being flushed and looking oh so dank. These fucks are going to yield 6oz/ea.


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 25, 2012)

bring on the pics cg looking forward to it


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## kamie (Mar 25, 2012)

Im looking forward to it too. Like button


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## C.Indica (Mar 25, 2012)

Excellent harvest brother!


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## curious2garden (Mar 25, 2012)

YES!! Hey did I tell you your Hydrologic Stealth 200 you gave me is working like a champ. I don't have to pH my water every day like I used to. Seems the pH holds steadier. Plus I can now get a drink after I go to bed. I'm not stable enough to negotiate the stairs so once I'm up there I'm in for the night so now I can have water when I want it's WONDERFUL!! Thank you.

I transplanted my 4 AI moms today just in case it turns out special and I was thinking of flipping the clones tomorrow. But I have a question first. I need to switch the clones into larger containers, what size should I use and after transplanting can I just flip or should I wait for a little? Also could I flip them under the 250 metal halide or should I wait the 2 weeks for the AI's to finish then flip when the big light is ready for them? I am NOT making the same mistake of out of control canopy twice LOL. 

Oh is the D-Bub different than your Bubba? How so? Could anything be danker than that Bubba you grow? One puff of that and within a few minutes my eyes cross and suddenly it's the next morning LOL! But the most fascinating thing about it is that I only have to use it once every 4 days and it potentiates the morphine for that long. I am just amazed how long it keeps working for pain control long after the high has worn off. It's incredible stuff, thank you so much for it.


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 26, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Probably time for some new pics. I do have a bunch of 40" D-Bubs being flushed and looking oh so dank. These fucks are going to yield 6oz/ea.


Nice. I just finished curing my latest sour D harvest. I grew this round in ten gallon containers, I yielded between 8-10 oz each...


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## collective gardener (Apr 2, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Nice. I just finished curing my latest sour D harvest. I grew this round in ten gallon containers, I yielded between 8-10 oz each...


There's just no substitute for big containers, is there. We've moved from rockwool blocks to rockwool/perlite in 2 gal containers, to rockwool/perlite in 3 gal containers. The increased medium mass provides our blooming plants with more access to mag. It also eneables us to mix in more perlite for increases air flow and growing power. While we could grow up to 6oz plants in these pots, 3-4oz plants in greater numbers really make a nice efficient canopy. But, not matter what I do Commercial J does it better. The only solace I have is that he's SO anal he needs every crop to be perfect. This results in less crops/year. I'm a little less picky and will tolerate some imperfections in the live plants so long as finished quality is not affected. This, and the perpetual harvest, keeps our bloom room full all the time...the KEY to growing a perpetual.


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## phuzy (Apr 2, 2012)

omfg.. sub'd


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 2, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> There's just no substitute for big containers, is there. We've moved from rockwool blocks to rockwool/perlite in 2 gal containers, to rockwool/perlite in 3 gal containers. The increased medium mass provides our blooming plants with more access to mag. It also eneables us to mix in more perlite for increases air flow and growing power. While we could grow up to 6oz plants in these pots, 3-4oz plants in greater numbers really make a nice efficient canopy. But, not matter what I do Commercial J does it better. The only solace I have is that he's SO anal he needs every crop to be perfect. This results in less crops/year. I'm a little less picky and will tolerate some imperfections in the live plants so long as finished quality is not affected. This, and the perpetual harvest, keeps our bloom room full all the time...the KEY to growing a perpetual.


Very true. I'm currently rocking 5,7, and 10 gallon containers depending on which area they're being grown. I'd tend to agree that 4oz plants make the most efficient use of space/light, but I'm always tweaking things to see what works best. On a downer note, I've finally contracted the dreaded PM (managed many years PM free) and I _know_ that scurge came from an infected cut. Never again...


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## curious2garden (Apr 2, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> There's just no substitute for big containers, is there. We've moved from rockwool blocks to rockwool/perlite in 2 gal containers, to rockwool/perlite in 3 gal containers. The increased medium mass provides our blooming plants with more access to mag. It also eneables us to mix in more perlite for increases air flow and growing power. While we could grow up to 6oz plants in these pots, 3-4oz plants in greater numbers really make a nice efficient canopy. But, not matter what I do Commercial J does it better. The only solace I have is that he's SO anal he needs every crop to be perfect. This results in less crops/year. I'm a little less picky and will tolerate some imperfections in the live plants so long as finished quality is not affected. This, and the perpetual harvest, keeps our bloom room full all the time...the KEY to growing a perpetual.


Well this is good information and makes sense. You have got to be kidding! YOU LESS PICKY!! All the mmj you have given me is spectacularly good looking. How could anything look, or even smell, better than your Pre-98? From the dispensary I visited to now my own AI's your buds are really good looking and for potency wow. I just tried a sample of my AI and it was very disappointing compared to yours. No pain relief. I'm hoping it is just to early and will get that effect if I wait but we'll see. I can't imagine how fabulous Commercial J's stuff must be if you sing it's praises because your stuff is incredible.


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## GibbsIt89 (Apr 2, 2012)

i read back to where my last post was, do u mean LED lights or the dual mh/hps hortilux lights that grow pretty.


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## ArthritisSuffering (Apr 2, 2012)

I have followed this post on and off for a while but have never posted. I was just looking at your nute rack and it is everything I use, and personally I love them. I'm not trying to tell you what to do or anything, as I see here you seem to have it figured out pretty nicely . But in my opinion and also the *CEO's of Advanced Nutrients* opinion, use *Roots Excelerator *by *House and Garden. *There is a video on youtube of the CEO talking all about Roots Excelerator.


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## kamie (Apr 2, 2012)

ArthritisSuffering said:


> I have followed this post on and off for a while but have never posted. I was just looking at your nute rack and it is everything I use, and personally I love them. I'm not trying to tell you what to do or anything, as I see here you seem to have it figured out pretty nicely . But in my opinion and also the *CEO's of Advanced Nutrients* opinion, use *Roots Excelerator *by *House and Garden. *There is a video on youtube of the CEO talking all about Roots Excelerator.


i think CG uses roots from yellow bottle. not sure if he still does tho


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 3, 2012)

Hey CG got a question, with your current setup being drain to waist! How long can you go between waterings?
And do you go feed, feed, water or some other feeding plan?


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## toubib (Apr 4, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Without places and people like this to share the experiance, growing would still be a very VERY lonely endeaver.


pfffff ... ain't that the truth


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## los0420 (Apr 4, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> We'll build the system ourselves...it's way too easy not to. The only real modification from the original Under Current is that we'll be using smaller and flexable hose between the buckets. I need the ability to move the buckets around a bit...pet peeve of mine. I believe that the air stone with large enough pump adds more than enough oxygen to the roots. My current DWC test buckets just have this and the growth is nothing short of explosive. The main reason for connecting 10 buckets to a common res is to add some nutrient solution buffer capacity and to make solution changes and adjustments easily done at a common location for every 10 buckets. Also, if an air stone should fail, the circulating water would provide areated water to the plant regardless. I'm not even sure that I'll go with the second res hooked up to the float valve to automatically add water. First off, it will take up precious room. Also, I believe it is important to force ourselves to have to go and check everything everyday. I don't mind having to be at the grow everyday...I just don't want Helper D to have to spend 3+ hrs/day just draining buckets, mixing solution, and watering. Not to mention transplanting and soil disposal time. I also have to admit that over the years, my most prolific grows have been hydroponic.I started this grow soiless because I wanted the reliability while we sorted out the rest of the room's systems. Now that we're there. I'm ready to crank it up a notch. My hat's off to the Under Current designers for designing a DWC system that allows movable buckets (with our modification), a centralized solution tank, and doesn't rely 100% on each air stone functioning perfectly.
> 
> The changover will take place over the next few months. We have plants in all stages of growth right now.


soilless is basically hydro dont forget that cleaning all the rdwc buckets every grow is just as much work if not more then using soiless plus when people are counting on getting meds from you its always good to use a system that will make it through power outage just in case i have have grow both ways and rdwc will def beat every other system out but i like having a buffer just incase


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## collective gardener (Apr 10, 2012)

hellraizer30 said:


> Hey CG got a question, with your current setup being drain to waist! How long can you go between waterings?
> And do you go feed, feed, water or some other feeding plan?


Sorry for the delayed response. We've been busy updating the A/C and getting the CO2 thing going. 

I like to feed with every watering, but I'm continually reducing my nute concentration. We finally picked up a Blue Lab TDS/PH monnitor. We also started using just EC, rather than PPM. There are 2 formulas for going from EC to PPM, and the results are around 400ppm different. Fuck that. For a while I was feeding at anywhere between 1.5 EC and 2.0 EC. This is too hot. I then went to just 1.5 EC. This, too is too hot. Now I feed between 1.0 EC and 1.5 EC. Basically 1.5 EC during peak bloom time (week 2-5), and 1.0 EC during Veg, transition, and late bloom.

We are now using rockwool croutons/perlite mix at 2:1. 2 Gallon pot were big enough for 2oz plants. But, with dialed in nutes and perfect pruning, some plants are getting closer to 4oz. Therefore, we've stepped up to 3 gal pots. The larger diameter containers, combined with aggresive upper fan leaf pruning in veg, are creating some amazing multi branch plants. Of course, this settup is very similar to Commercial J's settup. He uses 1.75 gallon pot, though. 

We're updating the A/C to 21 seer inverter ductless mini splits. These were the most energy efficient I could find. Yesterday we added booster fans to the air inlets on the ducts feeding cooling air to the lights. The cooler the lights are, the easier the job is for the A/C's. This is the spring overhaul I've been planning for a while. I knew this summer would strain our current A/C's. We also wanted to seal up and start adding CO2. While the D-Bub and the Tahoe grow great w/o added CO2, the Pre-98 actually doubles the yield with CO2. After it tested in at 21% THC, our Pre-98 went into mega-demand mode with our patients. We just couldn't produce enough w/o CO2 enrichment. So, next Saturday we make the change from fresh air cooled to sealed and enriched. Most of my past grows have been CO2 enriched, and I'm looking forward to the explosive growth. I am glad we started out w/o CO2. This allowed us to 100% dial in the 3 strains. Now we're ready to see what these girls can do.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 10, 2012)

Bump your temps up a few degrees with the added co2 (as I'm sure you know), it helps as long as you don't hit the point of getting "blowout" in your buds...


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## curious2garden (Apr 10, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Bump your temps up a few degrees with the added co2 (as I'm sure you know), it helps as long as you don't hit the point of getting "blowout" in your buds...


What is blowout?


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 10, 2012)

curious2garden said:


> What is blowout?


Just where they grow all loose and airy, too much heat will do that.


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## collective gardener (Apr 12, 2012)

We're shooting for some serious "blow up"...not blow out. The new A/C's have been delivered to the shop, the new power has been installed, and the ducting has been re-routed for sealed light cooling circuits. Today we install the indoor units, Sat we get the compressors onto the roof, and Sun the HVAC guy is coming to sweat up the joints, pull a vaccuum, and fully charge the system. Then it's all systems go!

I'm so exited I could just piss myself. I was hoping to be CO2 enriched within a year. Past experience has taught me to dial in a grow and new strains without CO2. I find it far easier to identify nute probs and ideal canopy shapes without CO2. Then, when we have the plants totally dialed in, we add the CO2.


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## stonestare (Apr 12, 2012)

Curious how much your yield is projected to go up using c02. Maybe now you can keep up with J.


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## STLbudz (Apr 13, 2012)

whats up bro you got alot of posts to go thru lol but looks awsome , anyway i had a question me and my buddies wanted to grow in a house and use the whole master bedroom but i wanted to know how we could watch our ends you know,,so i was thinking if i get this formhttp://www.safeaccessnow.org/section.php?id=363 under collective agreement and had all our papper work and this form ,would we be set????


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## curious2garden (Apr 13, 2012)

STLbudz said:


> whats up bro you got alot of posts to go thru lol but looks awsome , anyway i had a question me and my buddies wanted to grow in a house and use the whole master bedroom but i wanted to know how we could watch our ends you know,,so i was thinking if i get this formhttp://www.safeaccessnow.org/section.php?id=363 under collective agreement and had all our papper work and this form ,would we be set????


If you start at the beginning of cg's thread you'll find he discusses starting up a collective.


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## STLbudz (Apr 13, 2012)

Yeah I know but is that the only way to do it and i was just asking ? Dont really feel safe with the 99 plant thing from the doc would rather do the collective route i seen how he did it but i was wondering if the way i was thinking of doing it was ok?


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## collective gardener (Apr 14, 2012)

STLbudz said:


> Yeah I know but is that the only way to do it and i was just asking ? Dont really feel safe with the 99 plant thing from the doc would rather do the collective route i seen how he did it but i was wondering if the way i was thinking of doing it was ok?


I am not an attorney and feel uncomfortable advising you on matters that could impact your freedom and the freedom of others. You can meet with a cannabis attorney for about $300/hr. After an hr with my attorney I had a pretty good feel for what it takes to stay in compliance. You guys should all pitch in a few bucks and meet with an attorney that specializes in cannabis law. 

Even with a 99 plants rec (which you all should have) you still need to keep your plant count reasonable. I know of one grower who had a visit by Ther Man. He had 40 plants under 4 lights. He was able to convince them it was for personal use ONLY because he followed the "dos" and "do nots". There are some guidlines you really need to be aware of prior to cultivating more than about 25 plants. Some of these are obvious: no other drugs, no cash, no growing anywhere near a school, etc...You also should keep very careful accounting records if you're doing the Collective thing.


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## patrickkawi37 (Apr 15, 2012)

Cg I read way back that you don't want to post pics from your phone because you can trace it. I was wondering if there was any way I could take it on my phone, and then upload it on the computer and be ok? I just flipped a couple days ago and I want to start a thread. Also I was wondering how many mls/L your using with the advanced coni during peak flower? It says on the bottle you can go up to like 20mls a gallon or something stupid, puts me at about 2100ppm lol. I ended up only using about 8/gallon. I read above about a "blowout", thought that was hilarious cause that's exactly what happened to run I just harvested. I wasn't able to get a mini split and the 85 degrees the last couple weeks didn't help. I did use co2 for the first time and it increased my yield about 40 percent. Too bad the temps LARF d a lot of it out haha. Sorry I'm hashed. Hope all is good, glad to hear you got a new AC!


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## C.Indica (Apr 15, 2012)

Congratulations CG, I can't wait to see your classic 8x8 with a Co2 boost.
Good vibes.


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## hockey4848 (Apr 15, 2012)

what type of cooling are you using for 20,000???!!


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 15, 2012)

patrickkawi37 said:


> Cg I read way back that you don't want to post pics from your phone because you can trace it. I was wondering if there was any way I could take it on my phone, and then upload it on the computer and be ok? I just flipped a couple days ago and I want to start a thread. Also I was wondering how many mls/L your using with the advanced coni during peak flower? It says on the bottle you can go up to like 20mls a gallon or something stupid, puts me at about 2100ppm lol. I ended up only using about 8/gallon. I read above about a "blowout", thought that was hilarious cause that's exactly what happened to run I just harvested. I wasn't able to get a mini split and the 85 degrees the last couple weeks didn't help. I did use co2 for the first time and it increased my yield about 40 percent. Too bad the temps LARF d a lot of it out haha. Sorry I'm hashed. Hope all is good, glad to hear you got a new AC!


You'd have to edit out the location and camera info from the digital file.


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## curious2garden (Apr 15, 2012)

patrickkawi37 said:


> Cg I read way back that you don't want to post pics from your phone because you can trace it.


Most smartphones and many new digital cameras embed GPS data into the image header. Almost any photo editing program can remove this data. Here's a few of the free programs that will do this for you:

Windows:
http://www.easyexifdelete.com/
http://www.digitalconfidence.com/downloads.html
http://www.superutils.com/products/exifcleaner/

Mac:
http://www.iconus.ch/fabien/products/sieng/sieng.html
http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/jhead/

If you're on any flavor of *nix you don't need me


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## Ty13 (Apr 16, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> We're shooting for some serious "blow up"...not blow out. The new A/C's have been delivered to the shop, the new power has been installed, and the ducting has been re-routed for sealed light cooling circuits. Today we install the indoor units, Sat we get the compressors onto the roof, and Sun the HVAC guy is coming to sweat up the joints, pull a vaccuum, and fully charge the system. Then it's all systems go!
> 
> I'm so exited I could just piss myself. I was hoping to be CO2 enriched within a year. Past experience has taught me to dial in a grow and new strains without CO2. I find it far easier to identify nute probs and ideal canopy shapes without CO2. Then, when we have the plants totally dialed in, we add the CO2.


Hey CG, how's everything going with the new A/C system...I'm sure most of us can only imagine just how busy you must be with everything...Hope all is going well with out any issues man!!


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## patrickkawi37 (Apr 16, 2012)

curious2garden said:


> Most smartphones and many new digital cameras embed GPS data into the image header. Almost any photo editing program can remove this data. Here's a few of the free programs that will do this for you:
> 
> Windows:
> http://www.easyexifdelete.com/
> ...


thankyou all for the help! im not the smartest with computers and im on a ghetto aspire laptop so its going to take me a minute to figure it all out but i should have a thread link for you soon


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## patrickkawi37 (Apr 17, 2012)

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/521287-4k-watt-medical.html#post7307645


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## collective gardener (Apr 17, 2012)

We switched to sealed, enriched, and air conditioned 3 days ago. Holy shit! I'm so exited I could just explode. My daytime temps are now 79.5F - 79.7F. The inverter mini splits are able to slow down the compressor, rather than starting and stopping. This makes perfect temp control possible. The Sentinal CO2 Controller is keeping the level between 1000 and 1100ppm's. If I crank the A/C's I can drive the temp as low as around 75F with lights on! We have plenty of extra cooling power. My RH is hovering around 50%-60%. I'm adding a dehumidifier today. While those levels don't bother me, I would like to be able to lower it during the night a tad. The A/C's dehumidify a bunch...producing 10 gallons each of water every 24hrs. 

The A/C's are Gree 2 ton units. They are 22 Seer!!!

I had plants at 1 week, 2 weeks, 4 weeks, and 5 weeks when we switched. Now we should be able to determine at what week the CO2 makes the biggest difference. Look out Commercial J...I'm nipping at your heels.


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 17, 2012)

Im in your corner cg hope you get a tko on com J


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## kamie (Apr 17, 2012)

hellraizer30 said:


> Im in your corner cg hope you get a tko on com J


im with HR on this *like button*


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## patrickkawi37 (Apr 17, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> We switched to sealed, enriched, and air conditioned 3 days ago. Holy shit! I'm so exited I could just explode. My daytime temps are now 79.5F - 79.7F. The inverter mini splits are able to slow down the compressor, rather than starting and stopping. This makes perfect temp control possible. The Sentinal CO2 Controller is keeping the level between 1000 and 1100ppm's. If I crank the A/C's I can drive the temp as low as around 75F with lights on! We have plenty of extra cooling power. My RH is hovering around 50%-60%. I'm adding a dehumidifier today. While those levels don't bother me, I would like to be able to lower it during the night a tad. The A/C's dehumidify a bunch...producing 10 gallons each of water every 24hrs.
> 
> The A/C's are Gree 2 ton units. They are 22 Seer!!!
> 
> I had plants at 1 week, 2 weeks, 4 weeks, and 5 weeks when we switched. Now we should be able to determine at what week the CO2 makes the biggest difference. Look out Commercial J...I'm nipping at your heels.



Your going to kick some ass! do you have a controller that keeps the temps lower during lights off? are you running one burner or two to get to 1100ppms? you said you were looking for a dehumidifier, There is a guy that has a warehouse of overstock stuff in rancho cucamonga area im not sure how close you are to that.. But i got a 90 pint for 120 bucks brand new. I know there alot more at home depot, hit me up if you want that guys number.


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## collective gardener (Apr 19, 2012)

patrickkawi37 said:


> Your going to kick some ass! do you have a controller that keeps the temps lower during lights off? are you running one burner or two to get to 1100ppms? you said you were looking for a dehumidifier, There is a guy that has a warehouse of overstock stuff in rancho cucamonga area im not sure how close you are to that.. But i got a 90 pint for 120 bucks brand new. I know there alot more at home depot, hit me up if you want that guys number.


Currently we are hitting around 67F lights off with no controller. I like that! I'm just running a single 4 burner that's PLENTY big enough for our sealed room size. I could be twice as big and still use this little burner. It's when running CO2 non-sealed (a bad idea) that one could need a bigger burner. We installed 140 pints worth of de-hu yesterday. That dropped the RH to 45%. Today I'm routing the de-hu drains to the nute res. Between the split ac's and the de-hu's, we're making around 30+ gallons of water per day! This works out to about 50% of what I use to water everyday.

I would still like the guys # that has the overstock on ac'c and de-hu's.


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 19, 2012)

I just got a 240v 100pint de-hu by active air
hope it does the trick


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## patrickkawi37 (Apr 19, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Currently we are hitting around 67F lights off with no controller. I like that! I'm just running a single 4 burner that's PLENTY big enough for our sealed room size. I could be twice as big and still use this little burner. It's when running CO2 non-sealed (a bad idea) that one could need a bigger burner. We installed 140 pints worth of de-hu yesterday. That dropped the RH to 45%. Today I'm routing the de-hu drains to the nute res. Between the split ac's and the de-hu's, we're making around 30+ gallons of water per day! This works out to about 50% of what I use to water everyday.
> 
> I would still like the guys # that has the overstock on ac'c and de-hu's.



Sounds awesome! perfect room! and your running one 5 ton, and venting lights? how many inline fans are you using? My buddy uses the wings so he has to use two 5 ton ACs for 20 lights, i was trying to figure out how much more power he uses doing it that way.

that de-hu guys number is 909 908 6006 his name is Clyde. he has alot of shit there, he said he doesnt get alot of mini splits though :\.


i just got a 2ton mini split yesterday, if you know anyone that can hook it up/ charge it and is down with the cause, i would greatly appreciate it. Unfortunately being younger, i cant think of anyone that i know of that can do it and im sketched about calling a local AC and electrical guy.


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## Humboldt14 (Apr 19, 2012)

nice setup CG, you look like you know what your doing..nice


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## Ty13 (Apr 21, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Currently we are hitting around 67F lights off with no controller. I like that! I'm just running a single 4 burner that's PLENTY big enough for our sealed room size. I could be twice as big and still use this little burner. It's when running CO2 non-sealed (a bad idea) that one could need a bigger burner. We installed 140 pints worth of de-hu yesterday. That dropped the RH to 45%. Today I'm routing the de-hu drains to the nute res. Between the split ac's and the de-hu's, we're making around 30+ gallons of water per day! This works out to about 50% of what I use to water everyday.
> 
> I would still like the guys # that has the overstock on ac'c and de-hu's.


Hey CG, what size dehumidifiers are you using and which type if you don't mind? When I've looked at some before, it seemed like anything at 45+pints/24hours said it was running about 500-600watts+. Is that normal? It sounds like a lot of power to me.


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 22, 2012)

They do run a bit high but if you get one rated more than your said area! It will run lessso theres saving.


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## MrEDuck (Apr 22, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> We switched to sealed, enriched, and air conditioned 3 days ago. Holy shit! I'm so exited I could just explode. My daytime temps are now 79.5F - 79.7F. The inverter mini splits are able to slow down the compressor, rather than starting and stopping. This makes perfect temp control possible. The Sentinal CO2 Controller is keeping the level between 1000 and 1100ppm's. If I crank the A/C's I can drive the temp as low as around 75F with lights on! We have plenty of extra cooling power. My RH is hovering around 50%-60%. I'm adding a dehumidifier today. While those levels don't bother me, I would like to be able to lower it during the night a tad. The A/C's dehumidify a bunch...producing 10 gallons each of water every 24hrs.
> 
> The A/C's are Gree 2 ton units. They are 22 Seer!!!
> 
> I had plants at 1 week, 2 weeks, 4 weeks, and 5 weeks when we switched. Now we should be able to determine at what week the CO2 makes the biggest difference. Look out Commercial J...I'm nipping at your heels.


That is some impressive fucking process control man. A delta of 0.2°F in a grow your size is amazing. I know process engineers that would be green with envy. 
Also I agree 100% that a few hundred bucks on a lawyer is the best money that can be spent on setting up a big grow. 
Keep up the great work man.


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## norcal1970 (Apr 22, 2012)

Hi CG

I read that you did some pruning to get to 4+ oz per plant. So an indoor plant that has leaves taken off it will produce more than one that is not touched? Can you elaborate on your pruning process. I would greatly appreciate it. Do you take all the fan leaves off? Do you supercrop, tie down or FIM etc? 

Also, I am in the process of retaining a good MJ lawyer and possibly start a small collective. CA law states that when forming a collective you have to apply with state. Did you apply with the state when you formed your collective?

Many Thanks!

Norcal1970


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## collective gardener (Apr 22, 2012)

norcal1970 said:


> Hi CG
> 
> I read that you did some pruning to get to 4+ oz per plant. So an indoor plant that has leaves taken off it will produce more than one that is not touched? Can you elaborate on your pruning process. I would greatly appreciate it. Do you take all the fan leaves off? Do you supercrop, tie down or FIM etc?
> 
> ...


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## YouGrowBoy (Apr 23, 2012)

Whew, just finished 4 days of off and on reading of the greatest commercial grow diary ever! CG - big time kudos for doing this and for your updates, knowledge, patience, common sense and honesty to a very mysterious process. If this was the only grow diary that existed, someone could learn everything they need to start a successful operation.

I envy you as I'm on a 2 grow year hiatus and came to RIU for a fix, a thrill, as vicarious as it is to read about other growers experiences.

I have a question, early on you started DWC with Godzilla and then even started a whole RDWC system but then moved on. What happened? I've always loved DWC and modified version with DWC/Sprayers (low pressure aero). Once dialed in, all waterings are on timers and in my case, far less garbage for landfills every harvest. 

YGB


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## collective gardener (Apr 24, 2012)

YouGrowBoy said:


> Whew, just finished 4 days of off and on reading of the greatest commercial grow diary ever! CG - big time kudos for doing this and for your updates, knowledge, patience, common sense and honesty to a very mysterious process. If this was the only grow diary that existed, someone could learn everything they need to start a successful operation.
> 
> I envy you as I'm on a 2 grow year hiatus and came to RIU for a fix, a thrill, as vicarious as it is to read about other growers experiences.
> 
> ...


No question that, once dialed in, RDWC is a very powerful growing technique...more powerful than soiless. But, doing it right requires quite a bit of complexity. With that comes more risk of a failure costing you the whole crop. We have chosen (like most commercial growers we know) to go the safe route. Money is best spent on dialing in the perfect atmosphere. If everything else is perfect, yet you still need better yield, going RDWC may be the ticket. Just remember that the grow is only as strong as its weakest link. I may go RDWC someday. But, not until I am matching my friends soiless yields. Only then will I know that I've maxed out my grow's potential with soiless. We are no where near at that point yet.


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## MISSPHOEBE (Apr 24, 2012)

WOW

Mental

Why have I not seen this thread before...........

WOW


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 24, 2012)

MISSPHOEBE said:


> WOW
> 
> Mental
> 
> ...


Could be because you just joined in January...


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## nuglets (Apr 24, 2012)

really inspirational thread man. have enjoyed reading through it over the last few days. props on the setup.

i started off trying to go hydro (big mistake) but i'm on the right path now. using sunshine #4 with worm castings. gonna try mixing in some coco the next time around. using advanced connoisseur with a few of their supplements. 

thanks again for sharing all this info.


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## patrickkawi37 (Apr 24, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> No question that, once dialed in, RDWC is a very powerful growing technique...more powerful than soiless. But, doing it right requires quite a bit of complexity. With that comes more risk of a failure costing you the whole crop. We have chosen (like most commercial growers we know) to go the safe route. Money is best spent on dialing in the perfect atmosphere. If everything else is perfect, yet you still need better yield, going RDWC may be the ticket. Just remember that the grow is only as strong as its weakest link. I may go RDWC someday. But, not until I am matching my friends soiless yields. Only then will I know that I've maxed out my grow's potential with soiless. We are no where near at that point yet.


^ i agree with that 100%. why move on to something else, if you haven't mastered mastered what your doing now. 

it probably says way back but... if i remember correctly your vegging with cubes..4 or 6 inch? are you doing a flood table for those? 

i want to setup a 4x4 table for veg just to see if it maybe something i am interested in the future. My buddy does two of them and floods 3 times a day.. both tables are under 1k halides and i have never seen such even growth in veg. his canopy is tits everytime. It seems that when you got everything dialed.. veg really plays a role


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## collective gardener (Apr 25, 2012)

Veg is everything. Spend enough time with a strain and you'll be able to predict yield from each plant before it goes into bloom...just from the look of the veg job. 

I do not use flood tables. Everything we do is top feed, hand water, drain to waste. We use 6" blocks in veg then go to 2 or 3 gal pots filled with 2/3 rockwool croutons and 1/3 #4 perlite. While the Hugo blocks saved tons on labor, the crouton mix grows better plants.


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## YouGrowBoy (Apr 25, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> No question that, once dialed in, RDWC is a very powerful growing technique...more powerful than soiless. But, doing it right requires quite a bit of complexity. With that comes more risk of a failure costing you the whole crop. We have chosen (like most commercial growers we know) to go the safe route. Money is best spent on dialing in the perfect atmosphere. If everything else is perfect, yet you still need better yield, going RDWC may be the ticket. Just remember that the grow is only as strong as its weakest link. I may go RDWC someday. But, not until I am matching my friends soiless yields. Only then will I know that I've maxed out my grow's potential with soiless. We are no where near at that point yet.


I would love to see a commercial DWC or Low Pressure Aero system. I've seen tremendous results on a small scale.


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## patrickkawi37 (Apr 25, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Veg is everything. Spend enough time with a strain and you'll be able to predict yield from each plant before it goes into bloom...just from the look of the veg job.
> 
> I do not use flood tables. Everything we do is top feed, hand water, drain to waste. We use 6" blocks in veg then go to 2 or 3 gal pots filled with 2/3 rockwool croutons and 1/3 #4 perlite. While the Hugo blocks saved tons on labor, the crouton mix grows better plants.


im not too familiar with the crouton mix im going to check that out. does that just help with better with air for the roots? my buddy puts hydroton in the bottom of his buckets, is that along the same lines? Ill have to give that a try next batch, im just doing all sunshine4.

bravo on hand watering every little lady in veg. thats got to be a pain in the ass, but beneficial in the end. how many ppms are you pushing late veg?

have you tried 5 gallon buckets? from a 6 inch cube into a 3 gallon seems like a small jump to me. probably makes them too bushy you wouldnt be able to fit as many?

^ definitely not trying to tell you what to do. just curious


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 25, 2012)

Crutons are made by growdan and like cg said they do grow better plants! Has to do with better aeration. I like the idea
Of perlite, cg do you line the bottom with it or mix it?


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## curious2garden (Apr 25, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> .....snip....... We use 6" blocks in veg then go to 2 or 3 gal pots filled with 2/3 rockwool croutons and 1/3 #4 perlite. While the Hugo blocks saved tons on labor, the crouton mix grows better plants.


Oh no! Say it ain't so LOL you just got me switched to Sunshine Mix #4 but now perlite and rockwool! For the last 2 seeds I germinated I did a side by side in Rockwool vs Sunshine Mix #4. I germed both seeds of the same strain one in Rockwool and one in Sunshine mix. The one in Sunshine mix was twice the size of the one in the Rockwool cube so I converted.


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## Shivaskunk (Apr 25, 2012)

Great thread man looking real good. i did a 12k room back in the pre medical days and that was a full fucking time job doing batches. a perpetual of your size takes dedication. I love your use of soilless mediu instead of a more revved up hydro op. It definitely sucks to lose a room with 40 to 50 girls halfway through a run because yure running nft and your idiot partner knicks the strip with your pumps out f the wal
I havenr run commercial in year nd am just about to start a conservative 3 patient med grow up here in the PNW and im taking notes from your journal here. Thanks.

Keep vigilant down there got a coisin in the laytonville /legget area who had his entire outdoor coop grow bagged by the feds even though they were following california atate law.


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## Humboldt14 (Apr 25, 2012)

Shivaskunk said:


> Keep vigilant down there got a coisin in the laytonville /legget area who had his entire outdoor coop grow bagged by the feds even though they were following california atate law.


No charges were filed thoe. They just took the plants. Feds flexing there muscles to say they dont give a fuck about Mendos sherriff tagging program


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## Shivaskunk (Apr 25, 2012)

you are right humbolt. No charges. Picture of an old room of mine nft....super shitty canopy. tried to run a sper super stretchy pheno of a skunk variant with some shiva skunk..back is the skunk variant


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## Shivaskunk (Apr 25, 2012)

Touchpad sucks for typing. sorry for horrible spelling. AnywayBACK t your op. loving it.


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## Nothingreallymatters (Apr 26, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> I've been promising to share this experience...so here goes:
> 
> Myself and some other patients decided to start our own collective. I had been retired from growing for several years, but a visit to a friends grow room sparked the fire back in me. I had grown for about 20 years, indoor and out, hydro and organic, commercial and personal. The only way I was going to do this was the right way...both legal and technical.
> 
> ...




Lemme get this strait:
You only grow 99 plants and have over 20k watts in you're warehouse?
And you had a 60k budget... With 20+ years exp... hmmm >.>


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## Shivaskunk (Apr 26, 2012)

To Nothingreallymatters.....

A lot of the dispensary growers that i know up here grow 1 plant per 600-1000 watts in order to keep in strict compliance with the 15 per patient limit. These guys are old school pros from the Wild West days. One of them gets around 2 lbs a plant/light albiet with a long veg. Im sure he could pull closer to 3.5 with more plants.

Its all about priorities.

Not to mention I usedto use the same amount of flowering watts totalled in 2 rooms and we never went over 99 plants. In fact we had 88 plant sites. 

Why do so many want to question CG? Jealous?


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## Nothingreallymatters (Apr 26, 2012)

Shivaskunk said:


> To Nothingreallymatters.....
> 
> A lot of the dispensary growers that i know up here grow 1 plant per 600-1000 watts in order to keep in strict compliance with the 15 per patient limit. These guys are old school pros from the Wild West days. One of them gets around 2 lbs a plant/light albiet with a long veg. Im sure he could pull closer to 3.5 with more plants.
> 
> Its all about priorities.



How could you focuse all that on one plant? Seems like a waste.. 
Anyhow, even dispensaries are being picked off one by one, EVEN IN CALI. I don't care how old you are, or how long you've been growing, if you wanna huge yield, grow more in less time? If you get busted, you're fucked anyways


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## Shivaskunk (Apr 26, 2012)

How is it waste when you still get .8 to 1 gpw? Yes veg time slows stuff....but if you have a tree vegged and ready you can still pull 5 crops a year. One dispensary i deal with has had the mayor in their op. The feds hit about 17 other dispensaries few months back, but not them. AGAIN priorities. Some people believe it or not actually grow this as medicine for sick people.
Anyay sorry to Collective Grower for straying off topic.


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 26, 2012)

Nothingreallymatters said:


> How could you focuse all that on one plant? Seems like a waste..
> Anyhow, even dispensaries are being picked off one by one, EVEN IN CALI. I don't care how old you are, or how long you've been growing, if you wanna huge yield, grow more in less time? If you get busted, you're fucked anyways


Your clueless! Less plants = less risk! More light = more product! Trolls jeez
Plus alot less labour! Easyer to control pests, less out going cost on nutes and
Medium!


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## dapio (Apr 26, 2012)

Nothingreallymatters said:


> How could you focuse all that on one plant? Seems like a waste..
> Anyhow, even dispensaries are being picked off one by one, EVEN IN CALI. I don't care how old you are, or how long you've been growing, if you wanna huge yield, grow more in less time? If you get busted, you're fucked anyways


This is a perfect example of why marijuana remains illegal. It's criminal minded people like yourself that give growing a bad name. As a result of the recent California Supreme Court decision of People v.s Kelly, a patient may grow any amount of marijuana that is reasonable to his or her needs. However, if you don't have a lawyer, or knowledge to defend yourself in a court of law, you are always in for a wild ride. Although, state police in general are not looking to bust anyone that is not a nuisance to the public. Avoid trouble makers, and people who are looking to bring you into their misery, and all will be fine.

Therefore, being conservative with your growing is always the better decision. If you choose to commit criminal acts, please to do not influence others to do the same.


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## collective gardener (Apr 26, 2012)

Nothingreallymatters said:


> How could you focuse all that on one plant? Seems like a waste..
> Anyhow, even dispensaries are being picked off one by one, EVEN IN CALI. I don't care how old you are, or how long you've been growing, if you wanna huge yield, grow more in less time? If you get busted, you're fucked anyways


I'm not sure what your point is. Plant count is very important. Yes I have grown as many as 9 plants per sq ft before. Yes, NINE. And yes that was some serious yield per sq foot. If I did that in current op my total plant count would be around 3200. Let's look at Fed Law: *Under 99 plants:* No Mandatory Minimum Sentence. *99-999 plants:* 5 year Mandatory Minimum Sentence. *999 Plants to 9999 Plants:* 10 Year Mandatory Minimum Sentence. 

So, my choice is to grow at around 75% max potential and stay under any mandatory minimum prison sentence, OR, grow at 100% potential and get 10 years even if the judge was my dad. Hmmmmmm. Buddy, I've done my prison time with the feds.

As for the comment of I'm fucked anyway. You're totally wrong on that. My buddy was just visited by the cops at his op down the street from mine. His op is twice my size. After a 2 day investigation with 6 detectives, they determined he was within State Laew and left. He's dealing with some costly code violations, but that's it. We have the same attorney who set us up the same way.

I don't really need to hear about how I'll be fucked. I've been fucked...and fucked good. There will be no more fucking here. I don't need to hear that I could get more yield with more plants. I am fully aware of that. I wrote it at least a dozen times in this thread. So what exactly are you trying to say? I'm full of shit cause any 20 yr grow vet would be growing 500 plants in an op this size? Sorry, that's for 10 year vets. 20 yr ex convict vets know better.


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## theexpress (Apr 26, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> I'm not sure what your point is. Plant count is very important. Yes I have grown as many as 9 plants per sq ft before. Yes, NINE. And yes that was some serious yield per sq foot. If I did that in current op my total plant count would be around 3200. Let's look at Fed Law: *Under 99 plants:* No Mandatory Minimum Sentence. *99-999 plants:* 5 year Mandatory Minimum Sentence. *999 Plants to 9999 Plants:* 10 Year Mandatory Minimum Sentence.
> 
> So, my choice is to grow at around 75% max potential and stay under any mandatory minimum prison sentence, OR, grow at 100% potential and get 10 years even if the judge was my dad. Hmmmmmm. Buddy, I've done my prison time with the feds.
> 
> ...


i hear ya.. i understand... do you have enough scripts for the plants ur doing now? or do you have a edibles rec? i plan on running 150 s.o.g. plants under 6000 watts when i get to cali... but i will be in the middle of nowere..


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## YouGrowBoy (Apr 26, 2012)

I know this is a grow thread so I don't want to get too far off topic but here's what's going on presently that I know. Most state and local court cases are losing big time and the CA state law we passed works when properly enforced by police and ruled on by Judges. I hear lots of stories of cops walking away due to compliance just like CG said. However, we just saw in Long Beach, one Judge took it upon himself to tamper with things to get a guilty verdict from a jury (google joe grumbine for all the sordid details). Fortunately, another judge threw out the jury verdict and we're waiting to hear if charges will be refiled. So, state wide were fine, sortof. We're seeing smash and grabs by some local authorities. They go into the dispensary take stuff and never file charges and tell owners if they want their stuff back they will file charges or turn if over to the feds.. Local cities (like Costa Mesa) are also calling the Feds because that's the only way to bust those following state law. The feds have been sending landlord notices to shut down their tenants or risk prosecution and also doing their share of smash and grabs. We need legalization but that opens a whole other can of worms, at least it stops people from going to jail.


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 26, 2012)

Dude i think its best you take this to toke n talk cause this is a grow thread not a political banter of sorts.
I know you see it the way you do but like cg said real vets know better!


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## curious2garden (Apr 26, 2012)

Nothingreallymatters said:


> Lemme get this strait:
> You only grow 99 plants and have over 20k watts in you're warehouse?
> And you had a 60k budget... With 20+ years exp... hmmm >.>


Yeah that about summed it up nicely. CG supplies me with his Bubba and that alone has eliminated 80mg of Morphine I had to take daily for chronic pain. But he doesn't need my defense but I find it offensive when the rare real deal is trolled.


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## ballin174 (Apr 26, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> I'm not sure what your point is. Plant count is very important. Yes I have grown as many as 9 plants per sq ft before. Yes, NINE. And yes that was some serious yield per sq foot. If I did that in current op my total plant count would be around 3200. Let's look at Fed Law: *Under 99 plants:* No Mandatory Minimum Sentence. *99-999 plants:* 5 year Mandatory Minimum Sentence. *999 Plants to 9999 Plants:* 10 Year Mandatory Minimum Sentence.
> 
> So, my choice is to grow at around 75% max potential and stay under any mandatory minimum prison sentence, OR, grow at 100% potential and get 10 years even if the judge was my dad. Hmmmmmm. Buddy, I've done my prison time with the feds.
> 
> ...


Well said!


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## hellraizer30 (Apr 26, 2012)

Nothingreallymatters said:


> And I guess being called a troll isn't name calling?
> You're all hipocrets


I call it how it is  thanks for playing


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## collective gardener (Apr 27, 2012)

OK! We done? Seems like no matter how hard we try to keep this thread positive there's always a negative force out there trying to bring it down. This one was my fault. I shouldn't have even bit. I'll try to swim by bait like that in the future. Anyways, back to the growing!

I made some great observations. As you know we just added CO2. There were crops at around 2 week and around 3-4 weeks when we added it. The 3-4 week crop isn't showing much difference. However, the crop that was only 1 week is looking radical. The CO2 seems to make the biggest differe3nce early in bloom...not later as I would've suspected (by later I mean weeks 3-5). 

One side benefit of sealing the op is all the new free water! Between the A/C and the 2 dehumidifiers, I'm making about 40 gallons/day. My average water usage per day is around 60 gallons. Basically, we're recycling 2/3 of our water. That's awsome. 

I would include pics, but wife took camera to girls weekend cabin camping trip. An even I like to imagine includes pillow fights and oil wrestling, but more likely will include wine and karaoke.


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## mellokitty (Apr 27, 2012)

so........ whatcha wearin'? *lewd eyebrows*


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## InsaneMJ (Apr 27, 2012)

Hey cg, I'm curious on how your feeding schedule came out when you were using connoisseur in-between feedings? Atleast I remember reading something about that, lol. I just stepped up to sensi bloom an started usin co2.


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## YouGrowBoy (Apr 27, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> One side benefit of sealing the op is all the new free water! Between the A/C and the 2 dehumidifiers, I'm making about 40 gallons/day. My average water usage per day is around 60 gallons. Basically, we're recycling 2/3 of our water. That's awsome.


The water these guys make, is that RO water or do you have to filter it in some way to use for feeding?


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## curious2garden (Apr 27, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> I made some great observations. As you know we just added CO2. There were crops at around 2 week and around 3-4 weeks when we added it. The 3-4 week crop isn't showing much difference. However, the crop that was only 1 week is looking radical. The CO2 seems to make the biggest differe3nce early in bloom...not later as I would've suspected (by later I mean weeks 3-5).


That is some interesting information. Way above my head currently. But an interesting factoid to squirrel away, thanks.



collective gardener said:


> One side benefit of sealing the op is all the new free water! Between the A/C and the 2 dehumidifiers, I'm making about 40 gallons/day. My average water usage per day is around 60 gallons. Basically, we're recycling 2/3 of our water. That's awsome.


Boy was I taken by surprise by the amount of water flowering plants consume and transpire! At the end of my first grow I was going through 1/2gallon/day per plant! Which meant in 5 days I had completely replaced my NFT reservoir. Even with that I was not even close to ready for the water commitment that a drain to waste requires. I felt sorry for myself at a measly 2 gallons/day! Now I'm feeling like I'm part water wheel. Those suckers are VERY thirsty.

CG can you tell me how you clone your Bubba's? My 2 Bubba's from seed don't have any side growth!
Thank you as usual 
Annie


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## collective gardener (Apr 28, 2012)

mellokitty said:


> so........ whatcha wearin'? *lewd eyebrows* LMFAO. Yeah baby. Yesterday's BVD's, a stained wife beater, Cat Diesel ball cap, and a mouth full of Skoal tobacco, as I sit at the table listening to crying kids and screaming wife. It's good to have land and a double wide trailer. Life is good. Mowed the lawn yesterday and found a car! Hell yeah. Wife lost a bunch of weight and is down to 225. She had that growth removed too, so her female parts look almost normal now. Yeah baby. Gotta run. Goat just walked through the screen door and shit all over little bubba in his walker.





InsaneMJ said:


> Hey cg, I'm curious on how your feeding schedule came out when you were using connoisseur in-between feedings? Atleast I remember reading something about that, lol. I just stepped up to sensi bloom an started usin co2.


 Not a real clear question.



YouGrowBoy said:


> The water these guys make, is that RO water or do you have to filter it in some way to use for feeding?


 That water is basically distilled. 



curious2garden said:


> That is some interesting information. Way above my head currently. But an interesting factoid to squirrel away, thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just cut off the top. She'll get sideways then.


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## curious2garden (Apr 28, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Just cut off the top. She'll get sideways then.


Thanks! That seems so obvious but I keep reading stuff about auxins, node placement being even or offset, all making cloning more complex than it really is. I think sometimes I get lost in trying to hard to understand when sometimes it's better to just do it and learn from the response.


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## kamie (Apr 28, 2012)

Hey CG, when you were using sunshine #4 you kept your ph around 5.5?


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## InsaneMJ (Apr 29, 2012)

Sorry, I ment was your yield higher when your ran your nutes like that? Or is it just better to stick to one or the other?


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## collective gardener (Apr 29, 2012)

curious2garden said:


> Thanks! That seems so obvious but I keep reading stuff about auxins, node placement being even or offset, all making cloning more complex than it really is. I think sometimes I get lost in trying to hard to understand when sometimes it's better to just do it and learn from the response.



Number one mistake growers of all experience make is not KEEPING IT SIMPLE!!! The best thing you can do for clone success is to have a healthy mother. 

As to your earlier comment about us going to rockwool while we just got you on Sunshine, stick with the sunshine #4 and perlite. After you have successfully grown several crops with sunshine, you can try out coco. Then, and only then, you can try rockwool. It's like driving a race car. Sunshine is a go kart. Aeroponics is a Formula One. You would want to have some experience before you move into the more performance oriented mediums. Each successive medium has more potential...potential to produce big yields AND potential to kill the whole crop.


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## TheLastWood (Apr 29, 2012)

Sup CG? Been a while! Just readin about what u said about co2 being most useful early in flower. I find the same thing to be true with bloom boosters. I use my bloom booster when I first see buds forming, when I see clusters of pistils. Usually 10-14 days from flippin em.


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## FilthyFletch (Apr 29, 2012)

I know this is an response to old post but the purple plant shown in post #775 appears to be Sweet Purple from Paradise seeds. I have grown that strain for about 6 years now and if you grow in soil it gets that dark purple color and if temps drop it will go almost black. In aero or hydro it has a light lavender color with pink hairs. It has 2 pheno types one smells and tatses like strawberry or mixed berry. The other is a a more pungent almost cffee smell in the jar but when smoked it has a hashy taste.


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## collective gardener (Apr 30, 2012)

FilthyFletch said:


> I know this is an response to old post but the purple plant shown in post #775 appears to be Sweet Purple from Paradise seeds. I have grown that strain for about 6 years now and if you grow in soil it gets that dark purple color and if temps drop it will go almost black. In aero or hydro it has a light lavender color with pink hairs. It has 2 pheno types one smells and tatses like strawberry or mixed berry. The other is a a more pungent almost cffee smell in the jar but when smoked it has a hashy taste.



Thank you so much for the info. Our pheno fits the Coffee smell/Hashy taste you've described. I can add that it was a stout plant that withstood a winter blooming without stress. I'm not sure I've seen that strain grown indoors in a hydro settup. However, my good friend grows it year around in her outdoor garden/greenhouse settup. She's Live Soil Organic and that strain always goes purple, but never quite as dark as when I grew it. This is because she uses the greenhouse in cold weather, and I just let nature take its course outside. 

I'm not a big fan of purples, but if you're growing purp for market, you might as well cool down the bloom and go REALLY PURPLE.


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## koolshades (May 1, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> I'm not sure what your point is. Plant count is very important. Yes I have grown as many as 9 plants per sq ft before. Yes, NINE. And yes that was some serious yield per sq foot. If I did that in current op my total plant count would be around 3200. Let's look at Fed Law: *Under 99 plants:* No Mandatory Minimum Sentence. *99-999 plants:* 5 year Mandatory Minimum Sentence. *999 Plants to 9999 Plants:* 10 Year Mandatory Minimum Sentence.
> 
> So, my choice is to grow at around 75% max potential and stay under any mandatory minimum prison sentence, OR, grow at 100% potential and get 10 years even if the judge was my dad. Hmmmmmm. Buddy, I've done my prison time with the feds.
> 
> ...


After a 2 day investigation are there any tips your friend might be able to pass along through you to other legal Cali collectives so they can stay out of trouble?


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## ProAce (May 2, 2012)

Nice op cg! AnywY I can get my hands on some of your pre 98 bubba I'm legal and in the LA area?


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## collective gardener (May 2, 2012)

koolshades said:


> After a 2 day investigation are there any tips your friend might be able to pass along through you to other legal Cali collectives so they can stay out of trouble?


It's the same advice our lawyers told us: No hard drugs, no big cash, no guns, far from kids, good accounting records, a good patient to plant count ratio.


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## collective gardener (May 2, 2012)

ProAce said:


> Nice op cg! AnywY I can get my hands on some of your pre 98 bubba I'm legal and in the LA area?


Once in a while Hollyweed has some. I don't know how you'd make sure it was ours. I'm currently talking with another dispensary that may be carrying our strains fulltime. I will post if they decide to. Otherwise it all goes to our members. Unfortunately our membership is very private. You must be sponsored by an existing member to even be considered. The average age of our members is mid 40's, and all of us have serious health problems. Basically, we choose the members that we would want in the courtroom should we ever be in legal trouble.


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## Wolverine97 (May 2, 2012)

Hope all is well in CG land.


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## dapio (May 2, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Once in a while Hollyweed has some. I don't know how you'd make sure it was ours. I'm currently talking with another dispensary that may be carrying our strains fulltime. I will post if they decide to. Otherwise it all goes to our members. Unfortunately our membership is very private. You must be sponsored by an existing member to even be considered. The average age of our members is mid 40's, and all of us have serious health problems. Basically, we choose the members that we would want in the courtroom should we ever be in legal trouble.


Hehe the doing of your clever attorney very nice. Obviously he plans on completely destroying the prosecution, hell the DA would probably just throw your case out just because of the time it would take to actually find anything worth telling to a jury lol. From time of arrest,and interrogation. To arraignment,pretrial, and trial.

I admire how your living CG true genius. Hows your health bro? Do you suffer any anxiety? I always wonder how it would be to have that type of weight on my shoulders.


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## ProAce (May 2, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Once in a while Hollyweed has some. I don't know how you'd make sure it was ours. I'm currently talking with another dispensary that may be carrying our strains fulltime. I will post if they decide to. Otherwise it all goes to our members. Unfortunately our membership is very private. You must be sponsored by an existing member to even be considered. The average age of our members is mid 40's, and all of us have serious health problems. Basically, we choose the members that we would want in the courtroom should we ever be in legal trouble.


thanks man good info, let us know when and if the dispensary will have it.


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## collective gardener (May 3, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Hope all is well in CG land.


Long time, brother. You have any new pics of your op?


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## collective gardener (May 3, 2012)

dapio said:


> Hehe the doing of your clever attorney very nice. Obviously he plans on completely destroying the prosecution, hell the DA would probably just throw your case out just because of the time it would take to actually find anything worth telling to a jury lol. From time of arrest,and interrogation. To arraignment,pretrial, and trial.
> 
> I admire how your living CG true genius. Hows your health bro? Do you suffer any anxiety? I always wonder how it would be to have that type of weight on my shoulders.



I used to worry alot, but not anymore. What good does it do? We've done all we can to protect ourselves. Now it's just a matter of luck.


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## Wolverine97 (May 3, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Long time, brother. You have any new pics of your op?


Yes it has been. I'm still on the no pics kick, paranoia has a way of consuming portions of my existence. So while I don't have pics, the new op is seriously nice. Not quite as nice (or large) as yours, but nice nonetheless. I'm still running most of my staple strains, and have added several new varieties that are showing lots of promise. The laws out here are still being clarified, there's a lot of grey areas, so I still try to be very careful. On the plus side, I just got a box of Cali Connection gear (the whole lineup) for free, so I'll be testing out some new strains shortly. 

Hope all continues to go well for you, stay safe.


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## roachclip420 (May 3, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> I used to worry alot, but not anymore. What good does it do? We've done all we can to protect ourselves. Now it's just a matter of luck.


words of wisdom.


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## mellokitty (May 3, 2012)

indeed. hope for the best, prepare for the worst. words to live by.


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## collective gardener (May 6, 2012)

Damn I love CO2!!!


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## hellraizer30 (May 6, 2012)

Im liking it to


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## C.Indica (May 6, 2012)

Hey CG how'd your seed run go?


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## Brother Numsi (May 6, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> It's the same advice our lawyers told us: No hard drugs, no big cash, no guns, far from kids, good accounting records, a good patient to plant count ratio.


At least you live where it's tolerated. Try the SE...damn!


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## Ty13 (May 7, 2012)

PM's are full, CG.


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## usuallysuspected (May 8, 2012)

Good day cg, I trust all is well with the collective,I've loved the read, you're a library fuill of knowledge,forgive me if this has been asked but I was reading many posts at early hours, sleepless times and when ever else I've found time, I was just curious what was ur harvest difference between coco, rockwool and dwc,aswell as that would 250 watts per sq ft be over kill if sufficiently cooled?


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## Wolverine97 (May 8, 2012)

usuallysuspected said:


> Good day cg, I trust all is well with the collective,I've loved the read, you're a library fuill of knowledge,forgive me if this has been asked but I was reading many posts at early hours, sleepless times and when ever else I've found time, I was just curious what was ur harvest difference between coco, rockwool and dwc,aswell as that would 250 watts per sq ft be over kill if sufficiently cooled?


Well I'm no CG, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. 250 watts/sqft is overkill no matter how you look at it, it's going to be well beyond the light saturation point for just about any strain indoors.


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## usuallysuspected (May 8, 2012)

is just that I'm limited to space,and not lights, I've been running this setup for 2 years, infact 12000 watts in a 3x4metre area, being how I came to my calculation, aswell as that I'm running 36 k btu, all straight dwc system,but I'm looking to try other methods as I've been with dwc since I started about 4 years ago,and it has its probs at times, will try get pics posted as I'm on my phone, but I will try spread my lights into a possible 3rd room,I'm using 400z and 600s, have 2x hydor 2000 l extractors and 3x td800s for winter when not using air con,I'm still with my original violator kush I've started with, and lately decided to keep a quality vanilla kush I've come across.I've added a link for a pic of a small violator bud so long. I know I've still got lots to learn, and that's why I'm here


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## drolove (May 8, 2012)

looks good!


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## usuallysuspected (May 8, 2012)

http://shaunswart.deviantart.com/art/Violator-Kush-small-bud-No-2-128964392
http://shaunswart.deviantart.com/art/Violator-Kush-small-bud-128964129
Excuse th triple post my phone doesn't agree with posting on here


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## usuallysuspected (May 8, 2012)

Just a pic of my power arrangement, another reason why I stopped at 12000 watts is because its residential power supply,and then my home made dwc containers,currently running 24 of them.


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## usuallysuspected (May 9, 2012)

Any 1 on this thread with some good ideas on commercial leds?
I stay in south africa so I need to know ill be importing the best, any pointers on this aswell as coco,dwc or rockwool harvest differences would be much appreciated, I know I can go make my own thread but there's not many people with the knowledge that the posters here have. And I'm not keen to get instructions from a closet grow.


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## dapio (May 9, 2012)

Hey CG whats your take on drying and curing? I run into strains that end up having no smell, but still have a great look. I truly believe it is due to faulty genetics. Have you ever had any problem with buds that smell like hay or pine?


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## usuallysuspected (May 9, 2012)

Usually nutes would give it a hay or pine smell. Flush more thoroughly.


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## MrEDuck (May 9, 2012)

usuallysuspected said:


> is just that I'm limited to space,and not lights, I've been running this setup for 2 years, infact 12000 watts in a 3x4metre area, being how I came to my calculation, aswell as that I'm running 36 k btu, all straight dwc system,but I'm looking to try other methods as I've been with dwc since I started about 4 years ago,and it has its probs at times, will try get pics posted as I'm on my phone, but I will try spread my lights into a possible 3rd room,I'm using 400z and 600s, have 2x hydor 2000 l extractors and 3x td800s for winter when not using air con,I'm still with my original violator kush I've started with, and lately decided to keep a quality vanilla kush I've come across.I've added a link for a pic of a small violator bud so long. I know I've still got lots to learn, and that's why I'm here


12kW in a 3m x 4m space is 1kW/m^2 which is around 100W/ft^2.


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## usuallysuspected (May 9, 2012)

3x4 is 12, 12 sq m to ft is 40 sq ft, and 12000 divided by 40 gives 300 actually?
Am I calculating it wrong?
Reason I 1st got 250 was because I got my conversion from metres to feet incorrect.


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## psari (May 9, 2012)

usuallysuspected said:


> 3x4 is 12, 12 sq m to ft is 40 sq ft, and 12000 divided by 40 gives 300 actually?
> Am I calculating it wrong?
> Reason I 1st got 250 was because I got my conversion from metres to feet incorrect.


12 m square is actually 129.16 square feet ...

So actually you're hitting about 93w/sf ...


Metric conversion kills both sides of the user.


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## usuallysuspected (May 9, 2012)

Thanks for clearing that up,
In that case will definitely need some leds


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## raiderman (May 9, 2012)

so wheres the pics? sounds like a good garden.


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## usuallysuspected (May 9, 2012)

And thanks for you're interest, I have just got the ball rolling after summer hit me hard with root rot, so installed air cons,and have got both sides vegging, half in dwc half in coco to compare growth and ofcourse harvest,most of my refelctors I built myself, so they're 4x lights per 2.5 metre hood and have 6 of them between 2 rooms in my 3x4m section,I run a pre filter and ro system too,will be switching over to flower in about 2 or 3 weeks only, sorry I don't have previous crop pics but the paranoia got to me being why I've resorted to trading knowledge online rather. Will keep updates of my grow on here from now. Any pointers on any subject would be appreciated as I've just learnt as I go along, when I started I had a 400 watt shower grow, moved it to my garage, and there after to 3 houses before I bought my own home where I now live peacefully with my girls,so ive still got some finishing touches to get to on the space ship


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## sfttailpaul (May 9, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Yes it has been. I'm still on the no pics kick, paranoia has a way of consuming portions of my existence. So while I don't have pics, the new op is seriously nice. Not quite as nice (or large) as yours, but nice nonetheless. I'm still running most of my staple strains, and have added several new varieties that are showing lots of promise. The laws out here are still being clarified, there's a lot of grey areas, so I still try to be very careful. On the plus side, I just got a box of Cali Connection gear (the whole lineup) for free, so I'll be testing out some new strains shortly.
> 
> Hope all continues to go well for you, stay safe.


GOOD LUCK WITH THE CALI CONNECTION SEEDS. I recently had 39 out of 40 seeds develop the Hermi trait at approx 7 weeks from when they cracked. They could care less; already got my money. This was the result that 3 different growers experienced so it was not something I did or an isolated case of stress induced Hermi... They were also 4 different strains (10 each X 4) BUT ALL LOOKED THE SAME in terms of leaf size/shape, number of nodes at a certain time in development and color of the leaflets individually..


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## raiderman (May 10, 2012)

youll notice a big dif with air con in the room, dries it out a bit also.cant beat those RO systems.very ns place and plenty of room,my future gro room,lol.....wen i first started posting i was kinda nervous first yr.been 4 yrs now,so i believe yure cool as far as riu goes.keep it comin.


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## usuallysuspected (May 10, 2012)

And there's a few more, found an old budding pic of mine, how ever there will be more greenery soon, look forward to trying the air con, wouldve saved things in summer,but none the less I'm open to new methods being why I'm going to compare my coco+hydroton to straight dwc.


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## usuallysuspected (May 10, 2012)

And now for the last few.would love to see some more pics cg!


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## Wolverine97 (May 10, 2012)

sfttailpaul said:


> GOOD LUCK WITH THE CALI CONNECTION SEEDS. I recently had 39 out of 40 seeds develop the Hermi trait at approx 7 weeks from when they cracked. They could care less; already got my money. This was the result that 3 different growers experienced so it was not something I did or an isolated case of stress induced Hermi... They were also 4 different strains (10 each X 4) BUT ALL LOOKED THE SAME in terms of leaf size/shape, number of nodes at a certain time in development and color of the leaflets individually..


I have lots of experience w/ CC gear. I don't have any major complaints, a hermie here and there, but there are absolute beast pheno's to be found for those w the patience to do so.


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## raiderman (May 10, 2012)

thats all i do is fems.if a hermie comes up i jus pick it .,my las crop must have gotten a light leak and about 12 plants had them.i picked them and the crop of 40 plants had only a a few seeds couple plants or 98% seed free.i'll never thro away a plant less its a male.....did u do all thay work yureself or did u have to bring a electrician in?i jus switched from multi 2 gallon sqare containers to these 3 gallon sqare airation bags,i think i'm gonna be overwhelmed....looks great my man.


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## usuallysuspected (May 10, 2012)

Thanks, yes I did it by myself with the instructions from my old sparky(thank goodness for him)I've come a long way since my soldered extension leads with the trip fuses removed.
I've actually noticed today that my coco plants are over taking my dwc,so that's really appealing, and all my dwc irrigation works so well with coco pots,wish we had the products to combat root rot in dwc here but were kinda limited so hoping my coco grows will show an improved harvest. Ill be following your grow too, look forward to seeing more.


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## raiderman (May 10, 2012)

looks sweet bro with all that room,i'd build me an empire thats for sure, with all this obama care goin around things gettin tough.rdr.


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## collective gardener (May 11, 2012)

usuallysuspected said:


> And there's a few more, found an old budding pic of mine, how ever there will be more greenery soon, look forward to trying the air con, wouldve saved things in summer,but none the less I'm open to new methods being why I'm going to compare my coco+hydroton to straight dwc.



For the love of Fuck, tidy up all those red wires in pic 2. 

IMHO anything over about 80 watts/sq ft is overkill. If you have the space, spread out and use more room. I bet your yield would go up if you expanded to around 60 watts/sq ft.


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## collective gardener (May 11, 2012)

raiderman said:


> looks sweet bro with all that room,i'd build me an empire thats for sure, with all this obama care goin around things gettin tough.rdr.


WTF does Obama Care have to do with anything? Nevermind. Don't answer. I'm not going to engage in a political discussion. Wrong thread.


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## raiderman (May 11, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> WTF does Obama Care have to do with anything? Nevermind. Don't answer. I'm not going to engage in a political discussion. Wrong thread.


sorry for cloggin yure thread, jus speakin to my friend,later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzpEEZRdoYw&feature=player_detailpage


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## hellraizer30 (May 11, 2012)

I would clean all these post up cg but its not my area! If you want il ask another mod to?


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## usuallysuspected (May 11, 2012)

Thanks will do, as I said I had finishing touches to do on my op still aswell as that I'd expand to a 3rd room.


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## fg2020 (May 11, 2012)

CG, did you consider using a trailer as a grow room? Something like what GrowOp offers? While a setup like that would likely require a higher ceiling, the mobility factor looks appealing to me.


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## collective gardener (May 12, 2012)

hellraizer30 said:


> I would clean all these post up cg but its not my area! If you want il ask another mod to?


Thanks for the offer, Brother. I'm not too worried about it. I'm letting this thing wind down. I really wanted to share the construction and first year. After all that's the exiting part. Now we're just chuggin along with very few changes. I think I've said everything I wanted to say about growing and trying to be a good and responsable grow op manager. I'll still hang around and answer questions not already answered, but not with the regular pic and big entry posts. Now I'm reading other posts and just enjoying my other friend's grows here.


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## TheLastWood (May 12, 2012)

Cg now you should try a bit of breeding


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## collective gardener (May 13, 2012)

TheLastWood said:


> Cg now you should try a bit of breeding


The thought of having viable pollen anywhere near my op is acary as fuck.


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## C.Indica (May 13, 2012)

So hire a buddy to do your crosses for you.

You could easily redefine Bubba Kush.


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## tomat0 (May 16, 2012)

How have the Phantom and Lumateks fared till now?
Are the Digilux still holding up on them?


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## collective gardener (May 16, 2012)

tomat0 said:


> How have the Phantom and Lumateks fared till now?
> Are the Digilux still holding up on them?


Phantoms were the only ballasts to survive my shop's low voltage on the 220 legs (195V)


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## patrickkawi37 (May 16, 2012)

^ all your lumateks took a shit?


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## Wolverine97 (May 16, 2012)

patrickkawi37 said:


> ^ all your lumateks took a shit?


That's how I read it. Not happy to read that myself, as I just bought several.


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## patrickkawi37 (May 17, 2012)

fml i have a few of them too. i was hoping if they shit out, the least they would do is replace them.


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## hellraizer30 (May 17, 2012)

I have had nothing but good reviews on my lumateks only bulb issues


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## collective gardener (May 17, 2012)

Lumateks are great with solid power. My 220 in the shop is only 195V, though. So, yes...all my Lumateks took a shit. Once again, though, the advantages of having a relationship with a hydro store shine through. It didn't cost me a dime. They took back the Lumatek's and handed me Phantoms right there over the counter. Try THAT with an online company. 

BTW. I have found a wholesale Hydro supplier who only deals with larger buyers in the So Cal area. He charges cost+20%. He delivers...either to your shop or other location of your choice. He has be absolutely the lowest priced supplier anywhere. He works on volume and keeping his overhead low...he only works 3 days/week. Anyone who makes large orders contact me via PM and I'll give you his contact info as well as an introduction.


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## curious2garden (May 17, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> ........snip......BTW. I have found a wholesale Hydro supplier who only deals with larger buyers in the So Cal area. He charges cost+20%. He delivers...either to your shop or other location of your choice. He has be absolutely the lowest priced supplier anywhere. He works on volume and keeping his overhead low...he only works 3 days/week. Anyone who makes large orders contact me via PM and I'll give you his contact info as well as an introduction.


CG you are to cool! I don't buy in volume LOL but what a kind offer to those that do.


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## Ty13 (May 17, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Lumateks are great with solid power. My 220 in the shop is only 195V, though. So, yes...all my Lumateks took a shit. Once again, though, the advantages of having a relationship with a hydro store shine through. It didn't cost me a dime. They took back the Lumatek's and handed me Phantoms right there over the counter. Try THAT with an online company.
> 
> BTW. I have found a wholesale Hydro supplier who only deals with larger buyers in the So Cal area. He charges cost+20%. He delivers...either to your shop or other location of your choice. He has be absolutely the lowest priced supplier anywhere. He works on volume and keeping his overhead low...he only works 3 days/week. Anyone who makes large orders contact me via PM and I'll give you his contact info as well as an introduction.


Not that it's needed, but I can def. vouch for this Hydro Supplier. I had a bulk order and the man came through BIG TIME for me!!
Hit up CG if you're even thinking about setting up shop and know you're going to need a decent amount of equipment. You'll be happy you did.


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## collective gardener (May 27, 2012)

Love the sealed room settup. We've just finished a multi-month nute test between Advanced, CES, and Flora Nova. The main result was that when using AN you can use about half as much. The shit is so damn absorbable that using at the same concentrations of CES and FN will cause severe burn. The new bloom room feeding schedule is 1.4EC on a feed/feed/flush regime. Even that will over nute the plants if the flush isn't heavy enough. 

CO2 tended to compound any overfeeding problems. One would think that the faster growth caused by CO2 would use up the extra nutes. Actually the CO2 increases the absorbtion rate and just burns the plant faster. However, once we dialed in the new nute schedule, the results were amazing. We have a tray of Tahoes in week 6 that are bigger now than previous finished Tahoe crops. The buds are huge for Tahoes yet still have 60% white pistils. They just keep getting bigger. I'll take some pics today and post em up.


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## kamie (May 27, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Love the sealed room settup. We've just finished a multi-month nute test between Advanced, CES, and Flora Nova. The main result was that when using AN you can use about half as much. The shit is so damn absorbable that using at the same concentrations of CES and FN will cause severe burn. The new bloom room feeding schedule is 1.4EC on a feed/feed/flush regime. Even that will over nute the plants if the flush isn't heavy enough.
> 
> CO2 tended to compound any overfeeding problems. One would think that the faster growth caused by CO2 would use up the extra nutes. Actually the CO2 increases the absorbtion rate and just burns the plant faster. However, once we dialed in the new nute schedule, the results were amazing. We have a tray of Tahoes in week 6 that are bigger now than previous finished Tahoe crops. The buds are huge for Tahoes yet still have 60% white pistils. They just keep getting bigger. I'll take some pics today and post em up.


Hey CG does that mean AN is winning so far? i use the same feeding schedule as well and it works great. i been using floranova and its been awesome. thanks for keeping us posted on your grow.


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## GibbsIt89 (May 27, 2012)

ccccccccaaaaaaaanddy mountain charlie, candy mountain


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## raiderman (May 28, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Phantoms were the only ballasts to survive my shop's low voltage on the 220 legs (195V)


that does suck....


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## collective gardener (May 29, 2012)

Yes, the AN is "winning". However, if you use it as directed, or even half strength, you'll burn the fuck out of some strains. Much of this is due to my rockwool medium, which has a reputation for holding accumulated salts. But till I started using AN I hadn't seen a salt buildup problem. Basically what makes AN great is the nutrient availability. But when too much nutes are available shit starts to burn. If it gets to that point in rockwool it takes several flushes to get the salts out. AN reminds me of a Top Fuel Dragster; Big on performance, but very finicky. Folks just have to decide if they'd rather fuck with a Dragster or a Hond Accord.


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## Wolverine97 (May 29, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> Yes, the AN is "winning". However, if you use it as directed, or even half strength, you'll burn the fuck out of some strains. Much of this is due to my rockwool medium, which has a reputation for holding accumulated salts. But till I started using AN I hadn't seen a salt buildup problem. Basically what makes AN great is the nutrient availability. But when too much nutes are available shit starts to burn. If it gets to that point in rockwool it takes several flushes to get the salts out. AN reminds me of a Top Fuel Dragster; Big on performance, but very finicky. Folks just have to decide if they'd rather fuck with a Dragster or a Hond Accord.


Eh, got me a bimmer and I like it very much. TLO 
j/k


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## hunter21312 (May 29, 2012)

You can now get GDP seeds on the attitude seed bank..I think it's 10 regular seeds for about $100 bucks..Im going to be purchase these myself and grow nd test


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## PakaloloHui (May 29, 2012)

My friend was growing GDP several years back. Great color, lousy smoke. I'd save your money or find something different.


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## collective gardener (Jun 1, 2012)

hunter21312 said:


> You can now get GDP seeds on the attitude seed bank..I think it's 10 regular seeds for about $100 bucks..Im going to be purchase these myself and grow nd test


I had to go back and read the last few posts to see where you were coming from. I guess this is an "out of the blue" type of post. Well, thank you.


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## InsaneMJ (Jun 1, 2012)

Glad to hear that your gettin larger yields with the Tahoe. When I first sealed my room with the first run I was getting the same size buds at harvest in week 6 with co2. It's amazing how much of a difference there is when using co2 and not using it. 

Have you looked into using bud factor x or Rock resonator? My local hydrostore guy has generally pointed me in the right directions with nutes, but he's been tryin to get me to pick up the rock resinator. He claims its alittle more effective then bud factor x. As far as price goes, their in the same range.
He's claimed that I'll get denser fuller nugs and I'll be able to notice the difference within the week. Been thinking of trying a side by side to see which is better. Or do you think that these particular products are just snake oil?


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 1, 2012)

InsaneMJ said:


> Glad to hear that your gettin larger yields with the Tahoe. When I first sealed my room with the first run I was getting the same size buds at harvest in week 6 with co2. It's amazing how much of a difference there is when using co2 and not using it.
> 
> Have you looked into using bud factor x or Rock resonator? My local hydrostore guy has generally pointed me in the right directions with nutes, but he's been tryin to get me to pick up the rock resinator. He claims its alittle more effective then bud factor x. As far as price goes, their in the same range.
> He's claimed that I'll get denser fuller nugs and I'll be able to notice the difference within the week. Been thinking of trying a side by side to see which is better. Or do you think that these particular products are just snake oil?


Maybe not snake oil per se, but just because something "works" doesn't mean it's good to use. My guess is it's a similar product to Flower Dragon, using PGR's to meet an end. I've checked it out, and got the same pitch from my hydro store guy but I'm not using it until I know just exactly what's in the bottle. There's way too little integrity in this business.


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## InsaneMJ (Jun 1, 2012)

I know what you mean. Reason why I'm lookin to use it is because I'm tryin to get my colas to fully connect. Density isn't really an issue for me. My colas feel rock hard right now. Except down side I used slightly too much overdrive in week 7 an caused a slight foxtailing not too bad. I used to use Dutch masters liquid light an saturator to get closer node spacing to get the full colas but just recently ran out and didn't use it on this crop. Maybe I'll just go back to the foiler spray. Still curious on the benefits of the products thou. Maybe a few side by side trials are in order.


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## collective gardener (Jun 2, 2012)

Nothing improved my node spacing as much as when I switched to Connoiseur base. You may also try increasing the light during the stetch.


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## InsaneMJ (Jun 2, 2012)

I'm probably gonna do the foilar spray and probably lowering the lamps during stretch. Dutch masters foilar spray gets my node spacing super close.


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## fb360 (Jun 5, 2012)

collective gardener said:


> That's neat. But, no proffesional commercial grower with a hydro shop within driving distance would EVER buy supplies online. Most of my buddies are large scale commercial growers and all of us shop local. When we build an op we walk in and make a deal with the owner/manager. We negotiate a discount...a deep one for the initial purchase and ALL future purchases. This way when a ballast goes bad (do this long enough and one will), we walk in the shop door and walk out with a new one. How long to replace your online ballast? If you only have a 4 light op, one light down is 25% of your operation. If I try a new nutrient and don't like it, I get store credit for the entire purchase price...even if I used the whole thing. No shipping. No phone calls. No bullshit that I don't have time for.


I like this comment. But moar pictures!!

Getting on a good note with one or more local suppliers is ALWAYS a good plan, as well as beneficial. Sure it might be cheaper to pickup the expensive things online, however you lose an opportunity to possibly learn more, find new stuff, and most of all, the ability to have ease of access to any piece of growing equipment you could reuire, right then, at a highly discounted price. After the first 4k$ at my local shop, they knew me by name, gave me a minimum discount of 25% on any and everything, as well as help me out whenever they can. For example, I recently purchased a T5 which would take 2 weeks to ship to their shop. Instead of having me wait for it to arrive, they lent me a brand-new t5 until mine came in, and then used the one they lent me as a store model.

Nice grow CG. Good stuff


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## Sencha (Jun 6, 2012)

Hey CG. Long time listener, first time caller here, lol. I want to say, you've been a wealth of knowledge and inspiration. Everybody growing big should have their hearts and minds in the community, as you seem to do. Much love, and respect.

I stopped reading around page 185, had to build a new computer and lost track of where I was. So, I started from the end and I'm working my way back. I'm glad everything is still chugging along. If you have time for a question I'd be grateful. 

I need to buy a new t5 setup. The bad boys seem overpriced. Do you have any experience with them, or can you recommend an alternative? 4x8 veg tent.


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## Kali Soul (Jun 7, 2012)

BMEISTER said:


> im from cali and i totally agree! besides the good weed laws theres not much here


Because u dont have a life and dont get out ....and to all u killa kali haters , stop hateing and get a fukn life


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## jhowdy17 (Jun 8, 2012)

man CG, you might have me sold on AN...making the switch after harvest


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## labudman (Jun 10, 2012)

To CG, 

I remained silent along the way, reading and absorbing knowledge from your 20+ yrs of exp... I'm not even close to starting my opp yet, but I very much appreciate you taking the time to share all of this. You have gone out of your way and for this I will always be grateful. I have had success on a small scale for myself and a few others, but never for as many as yourself and one day I hope to walk into my own 2500sq ft area of glorious garden space.  

Thanks again,

STAY SAFE!!!


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## stonedu (Jun 14, 2012)

Great grow CG, thank you for posting all of this great info. I have been following for a while and have learned tons. I know a lot of experienced growers visit this thread. I am doing my first grow and could use any input I can get. I've posted some pictures and info https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/536125-first-grow-pics-experienced-input.html#post7572916
if you have the time please take a look and give me your advice. 
Thank you.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Jun 22, 2012)

My iPad seems to be failing me today and for some reason can't use the search bar for this thread. That being said, what have or do you do for root aphids? I just noticed a few males and a couple females in my garden and the only person I know who has dealt with them successfully was you. I was thinking of using Azatrol or even azamax, what would you recommend? My plants are in 3.1 gallon square pots as well as 5 gallon buckets...please tell me I'm not screwed...  3rd week into flower and plants are still green and healthy...one plant is starting to show a few curling leaves so.... Thanks for your help you are the man CG!


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 22, 2012)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> My iPad seems to be failing me today and for some reason can't use the search bar for this thread. That being said, what have or do you do for root aphids? I just noticed a few males and a couple females in my garden and the only person I know who has dealt with them successfully was you. I was thinking of using Azatrol or even azamax, what would you recommend? My plants are in 3.1 gallon square pots as well as 5 gallon buckets...please tell me I'm not screwed...  3rd week into flower and plants are still green and healthy...one plant is starting to show a few curling leaves so.... Thanks for your help you are the man CG!


Azatrol and Azamax are the same exact product, just different brand names. Neither will work. IIRC, it's a Bayer product that works on them but I can't recall which.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Jun 22, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> Azatrol and Azamax are the same exact product, just different brand names. Neither will work. IIRC, it's a Bayer product that works on them but I can't recall which.


Thanks bro. My infestation isn't horrible but what I've heard is these little guys reproduce like crazy. I'm going to look into that stuff now. Can it be used as a drench? I believe that is the only way I can get rid of them effectively. Also, will any of that stuff ruin the taste, look or overall grow of these girls once treated? Sorry for the noob questions, like I said before, never dealt with root aphids.


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## Wolverine97 (Jun 22, 2012)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> Thanks bro. My infestation isn't horrible but what I've heard is these little guys reproduce like crazy. I'm going to look into that stuff now. Can it be used as a drench? I believe that is the only way I can get rid of them effectively. Also, will any of that stuff ruin the taste, look or overall grow of these girls once treated? Sorry for the noob questions, like I said before, never dealt with root aphids.


It is a drench, but I've never used it so I can't say much about it. The one time I had root aphids they were confined to a few containers which I just disposed of.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Jun 22, 2012)

Wolverine97 said:


> It is a drench, but I've never used it so I can't say much about it. The one time I had root aphids they were confined to a few containers which I just disposed of.


Thanks for the honesty  I have only noticed them in a few pots as well so if worst comes to worst, I'll have to dispose of them too. Hate getting rid of 3 foot monsters, especially when it is some lake of fire OG


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## blazingcbr (Jul 3, 2012)

Well cg I have to say I have learned a lot reading the 256 pages and yes I read everyone amazing the dumb questions people ask when the info is 2 pages before lol. Well bring in the cannabis industry here in N Cal I love that you have generous and a passion for the "industry" sounds so bad or "cause". But I just got my hands on a bubba kush has them bubba leaves. But ya just wanted to say keep what your doin and keep it safe


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## thousanaire (Jul 17, 2012)

hey man im going with a few of my friends on friday to talk to a marijuana lawyer would you have any advice on things to ask?


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## hellraizer30 (Jul 17, 2012)

Anybody seen cg?


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## raiderman (Jul 17, 2012)

i was wanting to see the new growroom single tops..to see wat weight aand size hes pullin off ea light.


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## tommyo3000 (Jul 23, 2012)

hellraizer30 said:


> Anybody seen cg?


not lately.. hmm


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## Yoghi (Aug 1, 2012)

hey! 
Thanks for a great read, has taken about a week!
i havnt posted before, but have a question
has anyone used diesel generators to power thier grows? and does this effect the lifespan of a ballast?

Thanks in advance for any information on this subject


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## The New Jim Jones (Sep 10, 2012)

i dont have the patience or the weed to last me from the first post till the last in this thread, yoghi i applaud you


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## tyler.durden (Sep 16, 2012)

Hey, CG! Great thread and fantastic grow, I want to be you when I grow up. I'm still in 2011 posts, this is some thread, but I want something to pack on some final weight in flower. I remember you mentioning some Yellow bottle Final product that really works, is this the product?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251007315677?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


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## SupaM (Sep 17, 2012)

That's it tyler. ATB!


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## Ty13 (Sep 28, 2012)

Calling cg...calling cg....dr. Cg, please report back!?!!


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## tyler.durden (Dec 28, 2012)

Hey, CG! Happy Holidays! I don't know if you're ever coming back, but in case you do I thought I'd ask a question. I know you're very up on the legalities of growing and I wanted your input: do clones without roots count in the Fed's 99 or less? I'd hate to have 60 plants in flower and 42 cuttings in the aero cloner and have a minimum mandatory kick in if the worst ever happened. Thanks in advance for your input...


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## SunJ (Jun 13, 2013)

I actually read this entire thread before signing up. The great vibe and mountains of information in the thread were extremely useful. Just wish CG would come back, the work he was doing was amazing! So if you're out there, CG, get on back!


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## SupaM (Jun 14, 2013)

Yeah, I do miss this thread. Hope the big guy is still rockin' ATB!


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## herballuvmonkey (Jun 15, 2013)

OOH Rah to your signature


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## Buddha101 (Jun 18, 2013)

Hey C.G.!! Id like to start by saying thank you!!! I don't think there is many people that are as busy as you that would take the time to sit there write/answer peoples questions like you do!!! You really are helping so many people with your knowledge and wisdom!!! Including myself!!! But You are a better man than me!!! I don't think I could take all the time you do to answer and write everything that you do!!!! Anyways, Im a new grower (just started up from seed) My room is 6x6x6 with 2- 600 mh/hps I use bout 4 1/2ft wide x 6ft length of the room... Oh im growing in Foxfarm O.F. / extra Perlite and im growing Liberty haze and white ruski (also known white Russian) M question is, what should I do to get the most out of my space (harvest wise) SoG?, SCROG?, Topping the plants? Any of your input would be greatly appreciated!!!!! as of now (like I said started from seed) I have 9 white ruski Fems going 2weeks old that I plan on cloning and making a bunch to fill the room, also I have 1 FEM liberty Haze (only 1 seed cracked when I sprouted them!!) THat ive been cloning already and getting ready to fill the room with also... here is a pic of the liberty haze  I am just getting ready to fill the room (when a few autos finish I have in there now) But I would love to get your input on what I should do to get the most out of my space... Pot size? Style of growing? Etc.... I am using full line up of Fox Farm Nutes... I have 2- 600watt lights (electricity is an issue) But I am going to add a bunch of CFL fixtures half way up the walls going around the room ( to hit the middle of the plants and get extra lumens) So Please if u have the time !!! LoL Let me know what you think!!! Thanks!!! and GoodLuck with your new EMPIRE!!!


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## collective gardener (Mar 24, 2014)

Hey gang...I am back. I stopped posting when it became clear that other posters were being raided. We finished up the 20 k grow and got out with our ass intact. I wish I could say the same for 4 other ops in the same 1 mile square area. On Nov. 13, 2013 the feds showed up and, with lots of help from the Sherriff, raided 4 commercial sized grow ops. My good friend Commercial J was one of them. Everything was seized, all parties arrested. Of course all were bailed out within hours. When it came time to go to court, the verdict was "missing complaint". Basically, no charges filed. It was simply a shakedown to close some operations. We kept running till the current crop was done then shut er down. Watching the cops load out a grow op right next door to our fully functioning op was scary as shit. Once again, all that cash spent on carbon filtration and air flow management paid off. I have since started a new 2k bedroom scrog. On a "per watt" basis, it is the most successful op I have ever run!. I would like to share what I am doing and try and help some folks hit that magic gram/watt yield. Should I just start here or start a new thread??? Ahhhh. It's nice to be back.


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## dajosh42069 (Mar 24, 2014)

Great to have ya!!! I was raided after being on RIU as well, but I attribute that to my dealing. NOT due to being on a site.
It's great to have ya back! ANd probably make a new thread that isn't almost 300 pages long, that way people know what's going on. I feel you'll spend more time explaining what happened to your grow op, and why youre just doing a small 2K scrog, then you will just doing what you do.


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## SupaM (Mar 24, 2014)

Very happy to see you back around, CG. If you do start another thread, put up a link, but right here's fine by me. ATB!


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 24, 2014)

Outstanding seeing you back CG

you still have your genetics?


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## collective gardener (Mar 25, 2014)

hellraizer30 said:


> Outstanding seeing you back CG
> 
> you still have your genetics?


Yes and no. The original Pre-98 petered out. The buds just kept getting smaller and smaller. The D-Bub shined for a year or so (BIG yielder), then started to become too much work removing hermi nuts. We developed and ran a wonderful Girl Scout pheno...and so did everyone else! Since most of our members preferred the Tahoe over the GSC, we dropped the Scout. Which brings us to The Tahoe. Holy fuck! What a find that was. Props to Commercial J for that one. 3+ years and dozens of generations removed from the seed crop, yet the Tahoe hasn't even slowed down. In fact, since the longer we grow a strain the better we get at it, I would have to say it's doing better than ever. What a monster. Had my op went down with the rest we'd have lost that strain forever......Oh, we also have a new strain going. Unfortunately, we're not sure if it's a Ripped Bubba or a Vortex (some confusion during labeling...I know....tard move...sorry). Anyway, it's my personal fav to smoke. Really upper motivating high, and smells like herbs and (this is going to be bad) musky panties. Seriously, 3 people have said it smells like girly parts. I will take a pic when their at 6 weeks or so to see if anyone can tell which it is.


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## aknight3 (Mar 25, 2014)

wow CG i havent seen you in what seems like a fort night. welcome back. I hope things are going good for you man and im glad to see you back here. hope things are well bro


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## collective gardener (Mar 27, 2014)

Been a while for me as well. I'd like to hear what genetics you guys are working with these days. I need to add to the stable el pronto, and don't have the time or energy to do a buttload of testing. Looking for that special girl that doesn't need be the biggest yielder, but turns heads every time. I am fairly fond of the OG's, but would veer from my comfort zone if some of you had any strong opinions. 

I will post some pics of a Tahoe SCROG I did that turned out quite nice. I'm pretty sure at some point in here I spoke poorly of SCROG setups, and will shortly be eating my words. Speaking of word eating. I plan on investing in ONE modern high power (600 watt+) LED to do a head to head against a 1000 watt HPS. If anyone has any experience with these please let me know. They are just too expensive to impulse buy. I would have never tried this with the big op. Our plant count dictated fewer larger plants which I feel can only be lit by HPS's. However, with my newfound fondness of SCROG, combined with a personal sized grow, I can grow at a density of just under 1 plant/sq ft. We weren't even half that before. Anyways, my current required column of powerful light is only 18" thick these days. A 1000 watt HPS can provide that over a 5'x5' footprint (pics to follow). So now I am wondering if a big ass LED could pull this off. Any ideas?

Stay safe.


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## SupaM (Mar 28, 2014)

Check out my guy jigfresh's vertical grow....he did a nice run using only LED's, and it turned out nice. ATB!


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## SFguy (Mar 28, 2014)

Word. Jig fresh's vert tube kicked ass


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## DFurious (Nov 5, 2014)

Hello CG, and all other followers, contributors of an excellent thread. I have been reading over the last few day ( Currently on page 79.) It has been a very educational, at times comical, and other times annoying thread (spammers, haters.) I just wanted to jump to the end to see if anyone was still around, and say thank you. To CG, and all those that have stuck around. I am by no means an expert in growing and this, and the entire growing community is where those of us whom wish to learn look to. You have been a beacon of knowledge. I currently have a 3kw setup in a spare room. Slowly looking to expand probably after the year. There have been so many great ideas and stories here. I am not sure if its just myself, or others are the same. I just find the whole growing process relaxing. It is a pride thing which some do not get. So without rambling much,I again just wish to say thanks to CG and the rest of those here in the thread.


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## curious2garden (Nov 6, 2014)

DFurious said:


> Hello CG, and all other followers, contributors of an excellent thread. I have been reading over the last few day ( Currently on page 79.) It has been a very educational, at times comical, and other times annoying thread (spammers, haters.) I just wanted to jump to the end to see if anyone was still around, and say thank you. To CG, and all those that have stuck around. I am by no means an expert in growing and this, and the entire growing community is where those of us whom wish to learn look to. You have been a beacon of knowledge. I currently have a 3kw setup in a spare room. Slowly looking to expand probably after the year. There have been so many great ideas and stories here. I am not sure if its just myself, or others are the same. I just find the whole growing process relaxing. It is a pride thing which some do not get. So without rambling much,I again just wish to say thanks to CG and the rest of those here in the thread.


I haven't seen CG in awhile. I too hope he is safe and doing well. If it weren't for him I would not be growing. He got me started.


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