# Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind is



## andersbranderud (Sep 5, 2009)

Scientists have always inferred the origin of the universe by reversing the observed state of the universe. At first, the universe was thought to be static. Thus, science held that the universe simply "always was." Then scientists theorized that gravity must cause the universe to shrink. Thus, science changed its mind, inventing the "Big Bang" Theory. It wasn't until 1998 that astronomers discovered that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Reversing an accelerating expansion to see back in time produces a universe that shrinks at a decelerating rate as one goes back in time to its origin. Follow this process to its ultimate and the rate of shrinkage reduces to converge with timespace where both are zero. That is, both shrinkage and timespace stop at timespace=0. Thus, timespace has a beginning.

From timespace=0, scientists hold that nothing in the universe magically "popped in" with no cause. It is a fundamental law of physics that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo; i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace. In contrast to endless opinionating of innumerable pseudo-scientific religionists, science recognizes the necessity of a Prime Cause ex nihilo

No eminent scientist represents that our perfectly-orderly universe can be explained ex nihilo without a Prime Cause. Being logically consistent (orderly), the universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-CreatorWho must be Perfectly Orderly; i.e. Perfect. Therefore, no intelligent person can ignore that our purpose and challenge in life is learning how we, as imperfect humans, may successfully relate to a Perfect Singularity-Creator without our co-mingling, which transcends the timespace of this dimensional physical universe, becoming an imperfection to the Perfect Singularity-Creator

An orderly Creator necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjectshumankind.

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Torâh&#8242; , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Torâh&#8242; which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source: www.netzarim.co.il)

Religions that contradict Torah, therefore, are the antithesis of the Creator.


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## CrackerJax (Sep 5, 2009)

If,inferred,maybe,possibly,..............

I'll just sum it up without a bunch of those.....

Man does not understand the timespace continuum nearly enough to say what is the primary causal effect which brought our "known" universe into being.


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## Trypt (Sep 5, 2009)

man can make the obvious correlations between intelligent design and nature just by appreciation of beauty and natural mathematic functions.
We may not ever grasp 100% a true creator but the fact we are conscious in itself is proof enough for me their is an intelligent force behind it all, or that IS it all...hmm 

good post man


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## CrackerJax (Sep 5, 2009)

I think man has a propensity to see patterns not in evidence, especially if they compliment his ego. Practically irresistible to the oh so smart primate.


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## Trypt (Sep 5, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I think man has a propensity to see patterns not in evidence, especially if they compliment his ego. Practically irresistible to the oh so smart primate.


what is a pattern, a man, or a primate without consciousness?




...


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## MagicA (Sep 5, 2009)

Right then you've solved the age old question that has been pondered by all of mankind since day one! Perhaps we should alert the worlds media now?


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## leeny (Sep 5, 2009)

who created the intelligent creator? and I'm not trying to be a prick but I'm sure there is some theory on that and would just like to hear it...


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## CrackerJax (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes, Leeny i too would like to know that as well. There,however all laws can be broken.


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## The Warlord (Sep 5, 2009)

Dude. It's all about the quantum foam and stuff. God is, like, cool man. Peace to the string theory, man! Whoa dude! That was deep and like wow man! God is math or somethin, man! WOOT!


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## Keenly (Sep 5, 2009)

you do realize you provided absoloutely no proof of anything other than the universe expanding


no evidence of a "plan"

or a "creator"


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## Keenly (Sep 5, 2009)

The Warlord said:


> Dude. It's all about the quantum foam and stuff. God is, like, cool man. Peace to the string theory, man! Whoa dude! That was deep and like wow man! God is math or somethin, man! WOOT!


quantum foam makes me roam my friend

RIP MC


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## Trypt (Sep 5, 2009)

plan?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_geometry

I believe that mathematically, it seems to work to a bigger, infinite scale like a fractal.

Beyond our own 3 dimensions, we will never understand, which is why we take psychedelics


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## CrackerJax (Sep 5, 2009)

Which is why we have religion...


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## Mindmelted (Sep 5, 2009)

We like fairy tales to make us feel good


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## Trypt (Sep 5, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Which is why we have religion...


religion is a tool of govt and media to control the people. over time, no longer sacred in my eyes unless they still follow the ancient practices like Tibetan and otherwise monks


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## CrackerJax (Sep 5, 2009)

Religion predates the modern governments. While Constantine did use the religion to subjugate the masses, there hasn't really been a consistent connection of government. 
If Germany and Japan & Italy had come out on top after WW2, and did indeed bring about a new world order, for sure the Vatican would be trying to survive in that climate and do whatever it takes. There is proof enough already of the church willingness to cut deals with Hitler. 

I'd say it's the other way around. Religion has been using govts.


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## fish601 (Sep 5, 2009)

Mindmelted said:


> We like fairy tales to make us feel good


 
yeah like the one that says nothing exploded and created everything then we evolved from slime.. i love that story


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## CrackerJax (Sep 5, 2009)

You just grab at the shiniest object on the tree...... being correct isn't really considered.


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## hanimmal (Sep 6, 2009)

> Scientists have always inferred the origin of the universe by reversing the observed state of the universe. At first, the universe was thought to be static. Thus, science held that the universe simply "always was." Then scientists theorized that gravity must cause the universe to shrink. Thus, science changed its mind, inventing the "Big Bang" Theory. It wasn't until 1998 that astronomers discovered that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Reversing an accelerating expansion to see back in time produces a universe that shrinks at a decelerating rate as one goes back in time to its origin. Follow this process to its ultimate and the rate of shrinkage reduces to converge with timespace where both are zero. That is, both shrinkage and timespace stop at timespace=0. Thus, timespace has a beginning.


That is the beuty of science. As we learn more and more, we add in the new facts and have to toss aside the old outdated theories.

The fact that the church had the practice of killing scientists for so many centuries that in any way contradicted the bible helped stagnate that process. So you pointing to the thought that the universe was static is wrong in a few ways. You also failed to point out that the first thinkers thought that all the stars were gods to be warshiped. And as people began to learn about the world those thoughts evolved.

And funny enough but gravity does exist. And in a way it is pulling all the objects in, but just not in the ways that early scientists first thought. Look no further than our moon. The earths gravity pulls it but the gravity of the outer planets that are far larger pull on it too, so it is actually found to be moving away from us. Same as our galaxy, it is being pulled towards larger galaxies where it will eventually be sucked in, on and on, until it is again one tiny ball of ununderstandable density ready to explode all over again.

See there is still room for god, it is in the before and after. But that doesn't mean that we should stick our heads in the sand and stop learning and evolving, and worst yet ignoring all the information and evidence that we have gathered.



> From timespace=0, scientists hold that nothing in the universe magically "popped in" with no cause. It is a fundamental law of physics that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
> The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo; i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace. In contrast to endless opinionating of innumerable pseudo-scientific religionists, science recognizes the necessity of a Prime Cause ex nihilo


I take it you actually work for the creationists. And are randomly posting in websites to try to build up your herd. 



> No eminent scientist represents that our perfectly-orderly universe can be explained ex nihilo without a Prime Cause. Being logically consistent (orderly), the universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator&#8212;Who must be Perfectly Orderly; i.e. Perfect. Therefore, no intelligent person can ignore that our purpose and challenge in life is learning how we, as imperfect humans, may successfully relate to a Perfect Singularity-Creator without our co-mingling, which transcends the timespace of this dimensional physical universe, becoming an imperfection to the Perfect Singularity-Creator


See as a race of beings that are self aware we have always had 'religion' and it is always in the unexplainable. When I was a kid I thought that there were monsters in the dark, now I know better. As a human living without electricity and no writing or history that is not verbal at night, I would have turned to the stars and moon for guidance of what life is about. And through the much larger margins I too would have turned to god. 

River gods, tree gods, animal gods, sky gods, lightning gods, on and on until everything had meaning, and the mystery was not as scary as long as I did not anger those gods I would know that I was safe. And when my people died of unknown reasons I would know that those gods were angry. The red berried bush god is not our friend and out to kill us, so avoid that god and instead stick to this blue berried bush god.

Later when we learned about plant biology, we could move away from those gods.



> An orderly Creator necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects&#8212;humankind.


Sure that is fine, since we have no evidence that it is not the case. DNA is about 98% the same right, so maybe there was a original plan.



> It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Tor&#8226;âh&#8242; , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Tor&#8226;âh&#8242; &#8212;which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source: www.netzarim.co.il)


 Now this throws me off, maybe I was too fast to say you are from the creationist business. I defines any logic that any instruction manual from god is real. If god is what everyone that believes says he is, then why leave it in the hands of people, he obviously has made his presence known and is not trying to play it incognito so why not make a huge mountain a textbook with his words carved in it in something that would never rust/rot/crumble/over-grow
so that it is strait up evidence here is the truth.

You really think that he can do all this, and then screw the pooch of such a important step like an ikea manual?


> Religions that contradict Torah, therefore, are the antithesis of the Creator.


Since humans are not born believers, every religion is the antithesis of a creator. He should have maybe implanted it word for word in all of our memories. That way we would not have the excuse of 'well I didn't know!'. If he was an intelligent designer that would have been a good place to start.


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## fish601 (Sep 6, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> You just grab at the shiniest object on the tree...... being correct isn't really considered.


the shiniest object is atheism, it sounds good, looks good, just isnt true


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## CrackerJax (Sep 6, 2009)

You again have it completely backwards. 

Atheism isn't easy..... it's a very hard way to live. There is little comfort in NOT having an afterlife. It takes a true mental discipline to stay in a logical and objective mode. 

Religion is the EASY way out.


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## Wordz (Sep 6, 2009)

at first i was an atheist but then I saw this video and I realized how science is totally wrong http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4


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## Leothwyn (Sep 6, 2009)

Wordz said:


> at first i was an atheist but then I saw this video and I realized how science is totally wrong http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4


LOL that was great.
I'm now born again, thanks to bananas.
... wait, what about that pineapple over there on my kitchen table... so delicious, yet so spiky. I'm confused now. Is there a god?


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## fish601 (Sep 6, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> You again have it completely backwards.
> 
> Atheism isn't easy..... it's a very hard way to live. There is little comfort in NOT having an afterlife. It takes a true mental discipline to stay in a logical and objective mode.
> 
> Religion is the EASY way out.


if when you die your dead it makes you wonder what you were even born for to begain with but its much easier not to believe in god. 
you see i know i am held accountable for everything i do here on earth, there is an expectation of how i am supost to live my life, i will face a god at the end of my life and answer to him. i am a failure thankfully i have a savior.


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## fish601 (Sep 6, 2009)

Wordz said:


> at first i was an atheist but then I saw this video and I realized how science is totally wrong http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4


 
lol thats a life changing clip


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## Wordz (Sep 6, 2009)

fish601 said:


> if when you die your dead it makes you wonder what you were even born for to begain with but its much easier not to believe in god.
> you see i know i am held accountable for everything i do here on earth, there is an expectation of how i am supost to live my life, i will face a god at the end of my life and answer to him. i am a failure thankfully i have a savior.


So does every nonbeliever go straight to hell or do they get to talk to god after they die too?


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## leeny (Sep 6, 2009)

FISH! I think you could answer this so I'm bring my question back up... who created the intelligent creator????? geeze I really just want an answer from a religious person


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## CrackerJax (Sep 6, 2009)

fish601 said:


> if when you die your dead it makes you wonder what you were even born for to begain with but its much easier not to believe in god.
> you see i know i am held accountable for everything i do here on earth, there is an expectation of how i am supost to live my life, i will face a god at the end of my life and answer to him. i am a failure thankfully i have a savior.



There's the rub bub.... when you die... you don't get to wonder...ur dead....that's the point of death....

Religion and the afterlife are simply wishful thinking based upon NO evidence. Comforting perhaps, but still based on nothing.


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## hanimmal (Sep 6, 2009)

You are willing to believe that the bible has been changed right fish. Well why is it so hard to believe that the rulers that have changed it did not place heaven into it because it is a good way to make sure their subjects don't commit crimes?

Would make life much easier for them to rule.


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## CrackerJax (Sep 6, 2009)

Christianity was PICKED by Constantine because it was the PERFECT slave religion.


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## That 5hit (Sep 6, 2009)

we are the aliens that we are looking for .


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## fish601 (Sep 6, 2009)

leeny said:


> FISH! I think you could answer this so I'm bring my question back up... who created the intelligent creator????? geeze I really just want an answer from a religious person


 
The intelligent creator was not created, he is eternal

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]*Psalms 90 *_Read This Chapter_[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]*90:2* Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. [/FONT]
thats my answer if you would like more try here

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/who_created_god.html

http://gotquestions.org/who-created-God.html

http://www.carm.org/secular-movements/atheism/if-everything-needs-creator-then-who-or-what-created-god


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## leeny (Sep 6, 2009)

well shit, then so are molecules ad and parasites (evolutionism) man  I wanted a cool answer that one is a cop out


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## CrackerJax (Sep 6, 2009)

He doesn't see how illogical his post is....


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## hanimmal (Sep 6, 2009)




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## KaleoXxX (Sep 6, 2009)

andersbranderud said:


> Scientists have always inferred the origin of the universe by reversing the observed state of the universe. At first, the universe was thought to be static. Thus, science held that the universe simply "always was." Then scientists theorized that gravity must cause the universe to shrink. Thus, science changed its mind, inventing the "Big Bang" Theory. It wasn't until 1998 that astronomers discovered that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Reversing an accelerating expansion to see back in time produces a universe that shrinks at a decelerating rate as one goes back in time to its origin. Follow this process to its ultimate and the rate of shrinkage reduces to converge with timespace where both are zero. That is, both shrinkage and timespace stop at timespace=0. Thus, timespace has a beginning.
> 
> From timespace=0, scientists hold that nothing in the universe magically "popped in" with no cause. It is a fundamental law of physics that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
> The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo; i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace. In contrast to endless opinionating of innumerable pseudo-scientific religionists, science recognizes the necessity of a Prime Cause ex nihilo
> ...


thats one deep first post man....

kinda on a side note, anyone har the theory about how eating mushrooms developed monkeys into mankind? the ones who ate the hallucinogenic ones developed a consciousness and the ones who ate the regular ones stayed monkeys and the ones who ate the poisonous mushrooms died off, thinning the crowd


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## CrackerJax (Sep 6, 2009)

Man didn't come from a monkey. We're just kissing cousins......Same tree, different branch.


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## atomicronick (Sep 6, 2009)

LMAO!!! only a fellow canadian  LOL!!!




MagicA said:


> Right then you've solved the age old question that has been pondered by all of mankind since day one! Perhaps we should alert the worlds media now?


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## fish601 (Sep 6, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> He doesn't see how illogical his post is....


 
but everything else existed?

how did earth get here?


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## leeny (Sep 6, 2009)

hahahahahaha do you want the full explination? cus I can admit when I don't know the whole story, but long story short- big bang rly?


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## leeny (Sep 6, 2009)

oh so now that that's coverd I want to know where the molecules came from but sadly technology is not advanced enough to figure that out


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## hanimmal (Sep 6, 2009)

Do you really want to know Fish? Because it is very interesting, but it could take a bit of time to type out. And if you just ignore it (which I think you would do) I think that I would have to become an internet toughguy.


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## Trypt (Sep 6, 2009)

leeny said:


> oh so now that that's coverd I want to know where the molecules came from but sadly technology is not advanced enough to figure that out


A *molecule* is defined as a sufficiently stable, electrically neutral group of at least two atoms in a definite arrangement held together by very strong (covalent) chemical bonds.


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## hanimmal (Sep 6, 2009)

Actually I found this link. It is not very sexy, but it does nutshell it pretty well.

http://geology.about.com/od/nutshells/a/aa_earthbirth.htm

Here is another that goes into the formation of early life:
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/Courses/bio303/bigbang.htm


But better yet, here is a quick science video of it: http://science.discovery.com/videos/the-comets-tale-planet-formation.html

Very good to watch about the water: http://www.history.com/video.do?name=How_the_Earth_Was_Made

They want to sell their video so that sucks, but look at the schedual and see if you can catch it. Very good video. Nevermind you can click on the different segments.

Here is a great one on the formation of the moon. http://www.history.com/content/universe/the-universe-video


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## CrackerJax (Sep 6, 2009)

Fish doesn't REALLY want to know...


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## fish601 (Sep 6, 2009)

they make money off that right?


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## hanimmal (Sep 6, 2009)

No you can watch them online and they make no money that is not already being paid to them.

Also you can watch on tv. The ads that pay them have already been placed so you watching the channel does not give them any money they would not have had if you didnt watch it.


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## leeny (Sep 6, 2009)

Trypt said:


> A *molecule* is defined as a sufficiently stable, electrically neutral group of at least two atoms in a definite arrangement held together by very strong (covalent) chemical bonds.



im just being an instigator, but I really do want to know so I'm researching it now ... *grumble, grumble*


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## Bauks (Sep 14, 2009)

Sure something happened to make all of everything...But to go as far as an Intelligent Creator No you hit Infinite Regress http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E-_DdX8Ke0


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## CrackerJax (Sep 14, 2009)

So far since the dawn of the Universe, creation point yet undefined.... there has been one immutable law which so far has remained unbroken. 

SIMPLE TO COMPLEX. 

This invalidates the very idea that behind all of the simplicity lies a "being" of super complexity which had to have skipped all of the laws of physics that hold true.

It is HIGHLY IMPROBABLE that an INSTANTLY complex being created the universe where that isn't possible to do.


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## fish601 (Sep 14, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> It is HIGHLY IMPROBABLE that an INSTANTLY complex being created the universe where that isn't possible to do.


 

but not so hard to believe that big bang did it?


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## CrackerJax (Sep 14, 2009)

The theory of the big bang is just that... our best theory. Also the big bang is a descriptive term of the event, not the cause of the event. 

Big difference.... we are still peeling the onion. 

Keep flailing tho.... it's entertaining (grabs popcorn)


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## hanimmal (Sep 14, 2009)

> but not so hard to believe that big bang did it?


Hey fish was hoping I did not scare you away.

The thing with the big bang is it is the most simple thing. If you can get behind that there is all this matter (earth, solar system, other solar systems, ect) in space, and that it is already here. You don't have to ponder how it got there, the fact that it is there is proof enough. 

So then you do the math and find that the universe is moving, then you can track it back to a point in space where it all converges on (if you follow the path that they are traveling backwards).

Once you have that, what is easier, saying that was where it started (even if this is one of several 'big bangs') and traveled outwards, or having to figure out how some super being that there is no facts showing somehow came into existence and having the powers to create everything out of thin air. I will go with the fact that everything is already here, and if this super being wants me to know it is here it will show us.


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## fish601 (Sep 14, 2009)

hanimmal said:


> I will go with the fact that everything is already here, and if this super being wants me to know it is here it will show us.


The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists: And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him (Hebrews 11:6). 
Looking at the stars, understanding the vastness of the universe, observing the wonders of nature, seeing the beauty of a sunsetall of these things point to a Creator God

The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 zeros). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Does-God-exist.html


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## krustofskie (Sep 14, 2009)

fish601 said:


> The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 zeros). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein moleculeshttp://www.gotquestions.org/Does-God-exist.html


Do you not think that given enough time no mater how slim the odds are, eventually it could happen. How old is the universe, surely old enough for the odds you quote to come about. By quoting odds of something happening must mean that you believe it could happen. And please don't spout shit about the earth only being 6000 years old.


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## Stoney McFried (Sep 14, 2009)

Sure, believe in god, cuz we said so.No proof needed.If you ask for proof, you're gonna burn in hell.LMAO.


fish601 said:


> The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists: And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him (Hebrews 11:6).
> Looking at the stars, understanding the vastness of the universe, observing the wonders of nature, seeing the beauty of a sunsetall of these things point to a Creator God
> 
> The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 zeros). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.
> http://www.gotquestions.org/Does-God-exist.html


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## fish601 (Sep 14, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> Do you not think that given enough time no mater how slim the odds are, eventually it could happen. How old is the universe, surely old enough for the odds you quote to come about. By quoting odds of something happening must mean that you believe it could happen. And please don't spout shit about the earth only being 6000 years old.


 
i am not into math but i would like to know how long evolutionist think it would take..
how long does it take for a single protein molecule forming by chance 1 in 10243 to become a single cell? might need more than 4.5billion years? anyone?


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## krustofskie (Sep 14, 2009)

fish601 said:


> i am not into math but i would like to know how long evolutionist think it would take..
> how long does it take for a single protein molecule forming by chance 1 in 10243 to become a single cell? might need more than 4.5billion years? anyone?


How long is a piece of string ? Your talking chance, doesn't matter how high the odds are, it could have happend on the very first day or even after a million years, as long as you give odds there is a chance them odds will come about at any time.

eg: If the odds of me picking the correct door are 100 to 1 it doesnt mean I will open 100 doors before I get the right one.


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## fish601 (Sep 14, 2009)

i gave it a google

*The probability of an average protein molecule made up of 500 amino acids being arranged in the correct quantity and sequence in addition to the probability of all of the amino acids it contains being only left-handed and being combined with only peptide bonds is "1" over 10950. We can write this number which is formed by putting 950 zeros next to 1 as follows:* 

10950 = 100.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
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000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
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000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 


There are 3 basic conditions for the formation of a useful protein:​
First condition: that all the amino acids in the protein chain are of the right type and in the right sequence 
Second condition: that all the amino acids in the chain are left-handed 
Third condition: that all of these amino acids are united between them by forming a chemical bond called "peptide bond". 
In order for a protein to be formed by chance, all three basic conditions must exist simultaneously. The probability of the formation of a protein by chance is equal to the multiplication of the probabilities of the realisation of each of these conditions. 
For instance, for an average molecule comprising of 500 amino acids: 
1. The probability of the amino acids being in the right sequence: 
There are 20 types of amino acids used in the composition of proteins. According to this: -The probability of each amino acid being chosen correctly among these 20 types= 1/20-The probability of all of those 500 amino acids being chosen correctly= 1/20500= 1/10650 = 1 chance in 10650
2. The probability of the amino acids being left-handed: -The probability of only one amino acid being left-handed= 1/2-The probability of all of those 500 amino acids being left-handed at the same time= 1/2500 = 1/10150= 1 chance in 101503. The probability of the amino acids being combined with a "peptide bond": ​
Amino acids can combine with each other with different kinds of chemical bonds. In order for a useful protein to be formed, all the amino acids in the chain must have been combined with a special chemical bond called a "peptide bond". It is calculated that the probability of the amino acids being combined not with another chemical bond but by a peptide bond is 50%. In relation to this: -The probability of two amino acids being combined with a "peptide bond"= 1/2-The probability of 500 amino acids all combining with peptide bonds= 1/2499 = 1/10150 = 1 chance in 10150​ *TOTAL PROBABILITY*= 1/10650 X 1/10150 X 1/10150 = *10950*= 1 chance in 10950 





this right?


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## fish601 (Sep 14, 2009)

oh wait that still doesnt say how long it will take..........


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## krustofskie (Sep 14, 2009)

So you admit that there is a chance.


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## tinyTURTLE (Sep 14, 2009)

fish601 said:


> i gave it a google
> 
> *The probability of an average protein molecule made up of 500 amino acids being arranged in the correct quantity and sequence in addition to the probability of all of the amino acids it contains being only left-handed and being combined with only peptide bonds is "1" over 10950. We can write this number which is formed by putting 950 zeros next to 1 as follows:*
> 
> ...


one in eleven thousand is pretty easy odds.
especialy if you give it a few million years to happen. in fact 1 in 10950 predicts that it will happen 100 times in a one million year period. nice math, though. even though you are essentialy arguing against yourself.

also, i am not factoring that you probaly meant to use commas, not periods in that ridiculous number.


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## fish601 (Sep 14, 2009)

well thats just to form a usfull protein


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## krustofskie (Sep 14, 2009)

Fish, your only giving odds for one group of the building blocks to form a protein. How many individual amino acids were there at the start, and I mean individuals not types. Then odds start to get smaller and smaller the more individuals that are involved.

And as I said before, you cant work out the time it would take when your talking chance, cos there is a chance it happend immediatley, unlikely yes but possible.


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## CrackerJax (Sep 14, 2009)

The Bible says, the Bible says...... no matter how many times they are shown the non-logic of their statements, it always reverts back to.... the Bible says. 

Lawdy.....

Quoting Jewish verse is no way to be a Christian.


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## fish601 (Sep 14, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> The Bible says, the Bible says...... no matter how many times they are shown the non-logic of their statements, it always reverts back to.... the Bible says.
> 
> Lawdy.....
> 
> Quoting Jewish verse is no way to be a Christian.


 
ok then no more science says 

you really dont understand what the bible teaches about jewish and christian
even tho you are a jew
your lost in your own little world


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## CrackerJax (Sep 14, 2009)

One is proven, one is not. Like I said way way back... the two cannot be compared.

You obviously did not read the article I posted.


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## krustofskie (Sep 14, 2009)

fish601 said:


> ok then no more science says


Science doesn't say. It shows with a logical progression of evidence to a conclusion.

Religion dictates without any viable form of evidence.


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## tinyTURTLE (Sep 15, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> Science doesn't say. It shows with a logical progression of evidence to a conclusion.
> 
> Religion dictates without any viable form of evidence.


quoted for truth.


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## zorkan (Sep 15, 2009)

"Approximately 15 billion years ago, life began..."
"No, it was more like 7 billion years ago..." 
"Uh, well, the earth probably began about..." 
"The strata may show..." 
"Well, we evolutionists don't exactly agree about when, why or how the world began, but...


evolution is a fact and you are unscientific if you don't believe it?" 




It is interesting to me how scientist have tricked everyone into believing in evolution. Evolution is not: 

repeatable,
testable; or,
observable.
*In other words, it doesn't even qualify as real science.* Mmmm...I don't think You'll ever get me to believe a monkey is my uncle, a rat is my cousin, and that lice are my near kinsmen. *Unless it's proven*, as of now it's not!


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## Stoney McFried (Sep 15, 2009)

Yet another spam posting of a copy and paste without crediting the source.Proof that religion doesn't encourage original thought.http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/evolfact.htm


zorkan said:


> "Approximately 15 billion years ago, life began..."
> "No, it was more like 7 billion years ago..."
> "Uh, well, the earth probably began about..."
> "The strata may show..."
> ...


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## Nocturn3 (Sep 15, 2009)

Zorkan, if you are that confident in your argument, stop spamming it over loads of threads, post it in one place, and let us address it. You're spoiling everyone's enjoyment of this forum with your childish shit.




Stoney McFried said:


> Proof that religion doesn't encourage original thought.


Haha, you got that one right lol.


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## Nocturn3 (Sep 15, 2009)

The funy thing is, none of those quotes are actually attributed to anybody. How do we know who made those claims, and whether they had any business doing so.

I'm guessing they were made up by the person who created the website you copy>pasted it from. Prove me wrong, and we can discuss them individually, along with the subject of quote mining.

They don't even have any context, and i suspect the "7 billion years" one was simply pulled out of someone's ass, and not based on what any respected scientist has said.


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## Nocturn3 (Sep 15, 2009)

That's it, put your (virtual) fingers in your ears and carry on spamming your shit. You're really helping your message to be taken seriously.


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## krustofskie (Sep 15, 2009)

Zorkan is just spamming all the threads that disagree with his views.


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## Brazko (Sep 15, 2009)

, It was pretty funny @ first, then it Lost it's Humor , NOw it's LIke .. 

I Still believe i'ts Hilarious  but .....

Go ahead and Speak on It, don't hide...Oui know Ur not Krazee


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## tinyTURTLE (Sep 15, 2009)

the world is also flat right?


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## krustofskie (Sep 15, 2009)

tinyTURTLE said:


> the world is also flat right?


I thought the earth is flat and sitting on the backs of 3 elephants that stand on the back of a turtle flying through space.


----------



## duguP (Sep 15, 2009)

You do realize that plagiarism is a federal offense( http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=209499)

None of us on this forum will stand by anything illegal lol


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## Brazko (Sep 15, 2009)

[youtube]ffEdO-UG4ZU[/youtube]




zorkan said:


> "Approximately 15 billion years ago, life began..."
> "No, it was more like 7 billion years ago..."
> "Uh, well, the earth probably began about..."
> "The strata may show..."
> ...


, I'm not Laughing @ You, I'm Laughing Wit Cha'


----------



## hanimmal (Sep 16, 2009)

Really did this tool do this on every thread?


----------



## krustofskie (Sep 16, 2009)

hanimmal said:


> Really did this tool do this on every thread?


Yep, and he's even made up loads of his own threads. Just an ignorant dick.


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## hanimmal (Sep 16, 2009)

Ug, way to ruin good conversations dickweed.


----------



## Stoney McFried (Sep 17, 2009)

He got banned.I told on him for spamming.I'm a tattletale.


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## phreakygoat (Sep 17, 2009)

post 666, number of the beast... at least until i find some other interesting thread. 5...4...3...2....1...


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## Trypt (Sep 18, 2009)

the creation guidelines for the universe follow fractal mathematic properties from a very infinitesimal scale to an extremely
large one. We are the product of intelligent design simply because consciousness in itself (a sole God?) has the knowledge of
everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen. some call it the ashakic record, but i believe consciousness
exists outside of our current understanding of how to comprehend, in a different dimension all together. Statistically speaking,
following these mathematical properties poses the possibility our "space" is infinite and in an infinite amount of space (AKA time)
everything WILL happen.
Infinity is unreachable...or is it? is it simply that we are the product of consciousness using math and
energy to start a fractal ...using the word universe seems not to suffice so i will actually go as far as to say divine creation
(which we as humans are very close to the beginning to)?
As conscious creatures, we have the same power of the gods. The power to comprehend, solve, create and feel. The Egyptians saw it and
applied math to their buildings. Other groups who have found this sacred geometry useful include govt organizations and the 
FREE-MASONS. ARE WE INFINITY??? ARE WE THE GODS WE GO TO CHURCH TO FIND?? USE YOUR OWN CONSCIOUS POWER TO CREATE, DO NOT LET YOUR 
CREATIONS BELONG TO OTHERS. You are alive and thus this is your world, shape it and yourself with wisdom and peace.


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## CrackerJax (Sep 18, 2009)

Except that your 'hypothesis" breaks the very rules of physics you use to illustrate the order. 

Complexity comes form simplicity. Nothing can be instantaneously complex by itself. This makes the "know it all" G*D impossible.


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## Trypt (Sep 18, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Except that your 'hypothesis" breaks the very rules of physics you use to illustrate the order.
> 
> Complexity comes form simplicity. Nothing can be instantaneously complex by itself. This makes the "know it all" G*D impossible.


If you knew much about super-string theory you'd have a sudden new opinion on multiple dimensions. im not speaking of a figure who stands above controlling everything, that would be narrow sighted.
Im speaking of the fact that everything has already happened and will happen again because of the patterns and math the universe follows.

our universe, the biggest thing ever......right? NO wtf is outside that?
our planet has a hurricane, on the scale of miles and meters...likewise in space nebulas, galaxies, emissions all follow the same form of fractal mathematics that occur on our planet in the smallest increments (like the spiral of our own ear, a nautilus shell, the patterns on fruit)

so taking this into consideration, we are very close to the beginning of a very fucking big equation

intelligent creator or not, you must admit the beauty in the simplicity of this complexity.


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## CrackerJax (Sep 18, 2009)

What is outside of our universe is totally unknown at the present time. You will probably pass away long before that answer is found.


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## Brazko (Sep 18, 2009)

Here is Some More Info 2 Chump On for Proof of an Intelligent Creator.....by Perry S. Marshall

This Stuff is Way Over My Head , So I would Like Whomever to break it Down in Simplicity so that I/WE can see the Flaws in this Theory, Also he has An Open Challenge for any Atheist to discredit the Information put forth, that has withstood All Arguements for over 3yrs and Counting.. I'm Sure We have Somebody here that will Be Able to Claim the Smartest Atheist World HeavyWEight Champ for RIU, I'm counting ON you and If nothing more I'm Interested in Learning from your comments or potential Possibilty that , Maybe we can talk Him into Coming Over this Way to Debate, 

Here Goes, and Plenty More to Come so You can be Acquainted with the Opposition:

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/intelligent_evolution_quick_guide.pdf


*The Atheist's Riddle: 30+ Skeptics Attempt To Solve It *



*For Three Years and counting, I have successfully advanced the Information Theory argument for Intelligent Design on Infidels, the worlds largest Atheist discussion forum. *

Information Theory and DNA deal a crushing blow to Atheism, because the laws of physics and chemistry do not account for the existence of information. 
You are invited to study, in detail, one of the longest-running debates in the history of the Infidels discussion board. 
Verify for yourself: To the extent that science can demonstrate anything, the information in DNA is evidence of _design _in living things. 

On August 30, 2005, a member of the infidels online forum (screen name wdog) posted the following on the Internet Infidels Discussion Board at http://iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=135497&page=1 
"I have been emailing back and forth with Perry Marshall, the author of this site
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/ifyoucanreadthis.htm
and since it quickly expanded in scope I invited him to come here and present his 'evidence' and proof. You might find the site amusing anyway. Feel free to critique his statements as i am sure he may at least read this since i will make him aware of this thread.
please be polite. Thanks" 

My first post: 
Gentlemen:

The starting point of this discussion is my central thesis, which is:

*1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism. *
*2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information. *
*3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.*

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall 

The discussion continued for more than 4 months and 300 posts. At the end, nearly all participants dropped out, having failed to topple my proof or produce any new objections that had not already been addressed. In the course of a very detailed and vigorous discussion my argument did not suffer the slightest injury. 
There were six major counter-arguments to information as proof of intelligent design. You can follow these links for a thorough summary of the discussion threads: 
1. *The objection that DNA is not a code* (it is, by universal definition) 
2. *The objection that information is not real* (it is, because it produces real effects) 
3. *The objection that information has no objective meaning* (it does, because a message produces results that are just as objective and specific as the message itself) 
4. *The objection that random processes can create information* (they can't) 
5. *The objection that codes do occur naturally* (they don't) 
6. *The objection that the nature of the Designer cannot be determined* (in very broad terms, it can) 

(Note: for brevity and because of copyright concerns I have edited and / or paraphrased most of the questions, being careful not to change the intent of the message. If you wish to read the full discussion you can do so *here*. Lest anyone accuse me of re-writing history here on my website, I strongly encourage you to go see the forum for yourself! I was challenged by dozens of people and responded in detail to all major objections.) On December 4, 2005 I made my last of 16 posts. Notice that my language re-stating my syllogism is somewhat tightened as a result of four months of discussion: 
Let's review where we've been in this thread. I have said: 
*(1) The sequence of base pairs in DNA is a code. *
Much effort has been made to discredit this statement, unsuccessfully. This statement is fully and explicitly supported in virtually all of the scientific literature since the 1960's. 
*(2) All codes that we know the origin of come from a mind. *

Much effort has been expended to discredit this statement as well. Assertions have been attempted that gravity, snowflakes, magma flows and the like are codes. But none accurately conforms to Shannon's communication model. Most of the examples cited do not contain an encoding system, and none contain a decoding system. 
*(3) Therefore DNA came from a mind. *
The objection to this statement has been that the conclusion is reached inductively. Complaints have been lodged that inductive reasoning is inherently unreliable. But we do observe that the laws of thermodynamics and in fact the majority of known scientific laws are determined inductively and not deductively. If you wish to throw out inductive reasoning, then we can discard almost all scientific knowledge and start all over again and use rocks and sticks to make fire. 
Thus we have, right here on the Infidels discussion forum, after more than 300 posts, robust evidence that life was intelligently designed. 
It is not possible for me to persuade people to believe in God if they do not want to; that is not my job. But one can hope that some will follow the evidence, wherever it leads. 
Perry Marshall 
At this point the moderator, RBH, said: 
I've pretty much abandoned this thread as hopeless, but recently ran onto the Evolving Code Wiki run by Stephen Freeland's bioinformatics lab. A good resource for those who wish to 'follow the evidence'. 

Mr. Freeland's site doesn't answer the questions I raise either, but skeptics are free to pursue that line of inquiry if they wish. *Let's not forget that the entire enterprise of scientific inquiry during the last 500 years has been the ongoing discovery of underlying order, not the assumption of accident.* For that reason I think it's more productive to hypothesize _design _in DNA and devote our energies to discovering all its wonders. 
Open Challenge: The discussion thread is still open on IIDB, as discussion resumed in late February 2005. *I welcome anyone who understands information theory, and has a rigorous argument, to come forward and present it. *No doubt people will editorialize about this elsewhere, attempting to dismiss it as 'arguing by failed analogy' or whatever. 
But to whoever says I'm wrong, I say: Log on to the Infidels forum, _step into the ring with me _and _prove _I'm wrong . *Note:* Before you do this, _do your homework. _(I've done mine.) Carefully read every single post and make absolutely sure you're not just repeating what somebody else has already said. 
After more than 500 messages on the board, the atheist position is forced to insist, against decades of well-established scientific literature and every convention in the field of biology, that DNA "isn't really a code." And yet things like pebbles and snowflakes somehow _are. _
*A number of people on the atheist side have called them on this, but even the moderator continues to insist that I'm foolish for taking all those biology books literally. How very interesting that the atheist position cannot accept one of the most fundamental definitions in modern science, once the implications become clear: If DNA is a code, then we have every reason to believe that it is designed. *
Personal Comments After Debating Information Theory in Public for Well Over A Year and Successfully Advancing Intelligent Design to 30+ Atheists:​Having successfully run through the gauntlet with this argument, some brief observations. 
First of all, the vast majority of evolution vs. creation debates are fundamentally incapable of reaching a conclusion because 99% of the evidence is subjective and anecdotal. If you argue about fossils, for example, the evidence is extremely fragmentary and people see the evidence through their presuppositions. An endless debate that never reaches a conclusion is a great way to sell books, because skeptics buy evolution books and creationists buy creationist books and nobody really listens to each other anyway. 
But Information Theory is different. The arguments I make here, and the arguments Hubert Yockey makes in his book _Information Theory, Evolution and the Origin of Life _are not subjective at all. (Yockey is _not _a creationist or even an advocate of Intelligent Design, by the way, and nowhere do I reference anything other than widely accepted, non-controversial scientific literature.) 
The information theory argument is based on rigorous logical and mathematical definitions, and long-standing conventions in Electrical Engineering. The pattern in DNA is not _like _a code, it _is _a code, by definition. So information theory applied to DNA _is not an analogy _and actually has a possibility of making real progress in this debate. 
As you will see here , the only resource the skeptic can use to fight this is confusion and obfuscation. Observe the skeptical attempt to take my simple argument and make it impossibly complicated and confuse people, including the skeptics themselves. 
Information Theory really isn't all that complicated. But it is sufficiently abstract that you can throw up smoke screens, and the smoke screens will work for quite awhile. Notice how tirelessly these guys argued that DNA doesn't actually contain a code. (Also notice that at the very same time they also try to argue that gravity _is _a code!) And although most members of the board don't explicitly admit it, their argument does ultimately fail. The pattern in DNA _is _a code. 
*You will notice that there is a handful of atheists here who do acknowledge that DNA is a code - and that yes, my first two points are correct, all known codes are designed. They are lambasted by their brethren and accused of secretly being on my side. *
My argument is inductive. It does not explicitly identify God as designer, it just leaves God as the only available possibility. So a person is still free to reject the God conclusion and suppose that there must be some other explanation. 
_But what is interesting is that almost nobody on this forum is willing to even acknowledge they don't have an alternative explanation. _This strikes me as self-deception. Hey, if you don't know something, why not just admit it? How else can rational inquiry move forward? 
As you see here, not many infidels were willing to make that admission. Fact is , "skeptics" take a whole bunch of things on faith, too  faith that science will fill the ever widening gaps of the origin of life question for example. Skepticism fails to satisfy its own criteria  because every worldview invokes a miracle, somewhere along the line. 
Another thing you'll quickly see on the infidels forum is _extreme hostility._ The gentleman who invited me to the forum asked his colleagues to be polite, but as you see many were not. (At some points, he wasn't all that polite either.) One guy said, "If you quote Yockey one more time I'll claw your eyes out." One participant had his posts heavily edited by the moderator and was eventually kicked off. These guys _hate _intelligent design and everything it stands for. The contempt for religious ideas and religious people, especially Christians, is palpable. 
But again, the infidels failed to put so much as a dent or scratch in my argument. Because the greatest failure of materialism is that it simply cannot explain the existence of information! Decades ago this would have seemed like an odd and abstract argument, but living in the digital information age as we do now, with computers and credit cards and cell phones, even a child can easily grasp it. 
It is not my intent to embarrass, humiliate or show up anyone here. Nobody likes to be publicly made a fool. Nonetheless truth does matter. And if naturalism is false, then the faster we put a fork in it, the faster we can get to the truth. After all, if there is a pre-designed order in living things, then the most unproductive assumption science could possibly make would be that it is random, accidential or purposeless. 
Ultimately the outcome of this discussion reinforces what the great mathematician Norbert Weiner said almost 50 years ago: 
*Information is Information, neither matter nor energy. No materialism that fails to take account of this can survive the present day. - Norbert Weiner, MIT Mathematician and Father of Cybernetics* 
On this discussion board I rigorously demonstrated that an Intelligent Designer is the _only _availalable explanation for the genetic code in DNA. I did so in the same manner that we assert the truth of other scientific theorems, like the laws of thermodynamics. But I couldn't get a congregation of hard-core atheists to accept it - which goes to show that Dale Carnegie was right: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." 
Here, atheists show themselves to be just as devout in their beliefs, and just as steadfast in the face of reason, as the adherents of any world religion. 
*-Perry Marshall *​ 
_"Let us break the chains of the prejudice called Logic. Are we going to be stopped by a syllogism?" _-Dr. Floyd Ferris, a villain who opposes reason and logic in Ayn Rand's landmark novel _Atlas Shrugged _
_"The Christian is quite free to believe that there is a considerable amount of settled order and inevitable development in the universe. But the materialist is not allowed to admit into his spotless machine the slightest speck of spiritualism or miracle." _-G.K. Chesterton ​


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## Brazko (Sep 18, 2009)

Where did the Universe come from? 
Part 1: Einstein's Big Blunder

If you have questions, post them at:
http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=FcvCB&m=9auf7eq9ewTjn&b=SVmvXdH.4ekjbU4iSEHWUA


100 years ago, Albert Einstein published
three papers that rocked the world. These papers
proved the existence of the atom, introduced the
theory of relativity, and described quantum
mechanics.

Pretty good debut for a 26 year old scientist, huh?

His equations for relativity indicated that the universe
was expanding. This bothered him, because if it was
expanding, it must have had a beginning and a beginner.
Since neither of these appealed to him, Einstein introduced
a 'fudge factor' that ensured a 'steady state' universe,
one that had no beginning or end.

But in 1929, Edwin Hubble showed that the furthest
galaxies were fleeing away from each other, just as the 
Big Bang model predicted. So in 1931, Einstein embraced 
what would later be known as the Big Bang theory, saying, 
"This is the most beautiful and satisfactory explanation 
of creation to which I have ever listened." He referred 
to the 'fudge factor' to achieve a steady-state universe 
as the biggest blunder of his career.

As I'll explain during the next couple of days, 
Einstein's theories have been thoroughly proved and 
verified by experiments and measurements. But there's
an even more important implication of Einstein's discovery.
Not only does the universe have a beginning, but time
itself, our own dimension of cause and effect, began
with the Big Bang.

That's right -- time itself does not exist before
then. The very line of time begins with that creation
event. Matter, energy, time and space were created
in an instant by an intelligence outside of space
and time.

About this intelligence, Albert Einstein wrote
in his book "The World As I See It" that the harmony 
of natural law "Reveals an intelligence of such superiority 
that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting 
of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection."*

He went on to write, "Everyone who is seriously 
involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced 
that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe--
a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in 
the face of which we with our modest powers must feel 
humble."*

Pretty significant statement, wouldn't you say?

Stay tuned for Next installment: "Bird Droppings 
on my Telescope."

Respectfully Submitted,

Perry Marshall

*Einstein quotes are from "Einstein and Religion: Physics and 
Theology" by Max Jammer


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## Brazko (Sep 18, 2009)

Where did the Universe come from?
Part 2: "Bird Droppings on my Telescope"

If you have questions, post them at:
http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=FcvCB&m=pUv034T8wTjn&b=hmYqUnUewslrKZNupSxeAg


The Big Bang theory was totally rejected at first.
But those who supported it had predicted that the ignition
of the Big Bang would have left behind a sort of 
'hot flash' of radiation.

If a big black wood stove produces heat that you
can feel, then in a similar manner, the Big Bang should 
produce its own kind of heat that would echo throughout 
the universe.

In 1965, without looking for it, two physicists at
Bell Labs in New Jersey found it. At first, Arno Penzias 
and Robert Wilson were bothered because, while
trying to refine the world's most sensitive radio antenna,
they couldn't eliminate a bothersome source of noise.
They picked up this noise everywhere they pointed the
antenna.

At first they thought it was bird droppings. The
antenna was so sensitive it could pick up the heat
of bird droppings (which certainly are warm when
they're brand new) but even after cleaning it off,
they still picked up this noise.

This noise had actually been predicted in detail 
by other astronomers, and after a year of checking 
and re-checking the data, they arrived at a conclusion: 
This crazy Big Bang theory really was correct.

In an interview, Penzias was asked why there was so much 
resistance to the Big Bang theory.

He said, "Most physicists would rather attempt to
describe the universe in ways which require no explanation.
And since science can't *explain* anything - it can only
*describe* things - that's perfectly sensible. If you
have a universe which has always been there, you don't
explain it, right? 

"Somebody asks you, 'How come all the secretaries 
in your company are women?' You can say, 'Well, it's 
always been that way.' That's a way of not having 
to explain it. So in the same way, theories which 
don't require explanation tend to be the ones
accepted by science, which is perfectly acceptable 
and the best way to make science work."

But on the older theory that the universe was eternal, 
he explains: "It turned out to be so ugly that people
dismissed it. What we find - the simplest theory - is
a creation out of nothing, the appearance out of nothing 
of the universe."

Penzias and his partner, Robert Wilson, won the Nobel
Prize for their discovery of this radiation. The Big
Bang theory is now one of the most thoroughly 
validated theories in all of science.

Robert Wilson was asked by journalist Fred Heeren if 
the Big Bang indicated a creator.

Wilson said, "Certainly there was something that
set it all off. Certainly, if you are religious, I can't
think of a better theory of the origin of the universe
to match with Genesis."

Stay tuned for the Next installment: "Why the
Big Bang was the most precisely planned event in
all of history."

Sincerely,

Perry Marshall

"A Day Without Yesterday" - Albert Einstein, 
Georges Lemaitre and the Big Bang


----------



## Brazko (Sep 18, 2009)

Where did the Universe come from?
Part 3: Why the Big Bang was the most precisely planned 
event in all of history

If you have questions, post them at:
http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=FcvCB&m=9eVa2SE9ewTjn&b=omL4P1.Lx3OinJcb_5cl.A



In your kitchen cabinet, you've probably got a spray
bottle with an adjustable nozzle. If you twist the nozzle
one way, it sprays a fine mist into the air. You twist 
the nozzle the other way, it squirts a jet of water
in a straight line. You turn that nozzle to the exact
position you want so you can wash a mirror, clean up
a spill, or whatever.

If the universe had expanded a little faster, the 
matter would have sprayed out into space like fine
mist from a water bottle - so fast that a gazillion
particles of dust would speed into infinity and never even 
form a single star.

If the universe had expanded just a little slower, the 
material would have dribbled out like big drops of water,
then collapsed back where it came from by the force
of gravity.

A little too fast, and you get a meaningless
spray of fine dust. A little too slow, and the whole
universe collapses back into one big black hole.

The surprising thing is just how narrow the difference
is. To strike the perfect balance between too fast and
too slow, the force, something that physicists call 
"the Dark Energy Term" had to be accurate to one part in 
ten with 120 zeros. 

If you wrote this as a decimal, the number would
look like this:

0.000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000001

In their paper "Disturbing Implications of
a Cosmological Constant" two atheist scientists 
from Stanford University stated that the existence of 
this dark energy term would have required a miracle... 
"An unknown agent" intervened in cosmic history 
"for reasons of its own."

Just for comparison, the best human engineering
example is the Gravity Wave Telescope, which was built with
a precision of 23 zeros. The Designer, the 'external
agent' that caused our universe must possess an intellect,
knowledge, creativity and power trillions and trillions
of times greater than we humans have.

Absolutely amazing.

Now a person who doesn't believe in God has to find 
some way to explain this. One of the more common explanations 
seems to be "There was an infinite number of universes, so it
was inevitable that things would have turned out right
in at least one of them."

The "infinite universes" theory is truly an amazing theory. 
Just think about it, if there is an infinite number of 
universes, then absolutely everything is not only possible...
It's actually happened! 

It means that somewhere, in some dimension, there is
a universe where the Chicago Cubs won the World Series last
year. There's a universe where Jimmy Hoffa doesn't get 
cement shoes; instead he marries Joan Rivers and becomes 
President of the United States. There's even a 
universe where Elvis kicks his drug habit and still
resides at Graceland and sings at concerts. Imagine
the possibilities! 

I might sound like I'm joking, but actually I'm dead
serious. To believe an infinite number of universes
made life possible by random chance is to believe everything
else I just said, too. 

Some people believe in God with a capital G.

And some folks believe in Chance with a Capital C.

Next installment: "If you can read this email,
I can prove to you that God exists." Sound a little bold?
Tune in tomorrow - same time, same station.

Respectfully Submitted,

Perry Marshall


----------



## Brazko (Sep 18, 2009)

Where did the Universe Come From? 
Part 4: "If you can read this sentence, 
I can prove to you that God exists"

If you have questions, post them at:
http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=FcvCB&m=mpkuVQZOwTjn&b=wV4v8rIWKE4MhdFmsopIFg


See this email I just sent you, that you're reading
right now? This email is proof of the existence of God.

Yeah, I know, that sounds crazy. But I'm not asking you 
to believe anything just yet, until you see the evidence for 
yourself. All I ask is that you refrain from disbelieving 
while I show you my proof. It only takes a minute to convey, 
but it speaks to one of the most important questions of all 
time.

So how is this email proof of the existence of God?

This email you're reading contains letters, words and
sentences. It contains a message that means something.
As long as you can read English, you can understand what
I'm saying.

You can do all kinds of things with this email. You
can read it on your computer screen. You can print it out on
your printer. You can read it out loud to a friend who's in 
the same room as you are. You can call your friend and read it 
to her over the telephone. You can save it as a Microsoft 
WORD document. You can forward it to someone via email, or you
can post it on a website.

Regardless of how you copy it or where you send it,
the information remains the same. My email contains a message.
It contains information in the form of language. The message
is independent of the medium it is sent in.

Messages are not matter, even though they can be carried 
by matter (like printing this email on a piece of paper).

Messages are not energy even though they can be carried 
by energy (like the sound of my voice.)

Messages are immaterial. Information is itself a unique 
kind of entity. It can be stored and transmitted and copied 
in many forms, but the meaning still stays the same.

Messages can be in English, French or Chinese.
Or Morse Code. Or mating calls of birds. Or the Internet. 
Or radio or television. Or computer programs or architect
blueprints or stone carvings. Every cell in your body
contains a message encoded in DNA, representing a complete 
plan for you.

OK, so what does this have to do with God?

It's very simple. Messages, languages, and coded
information ONLY come from a mind. A mind that
agrees on an alphabet and a meaning of words and
sentences. A mind that expresses both desire and
intent.

Whether I use the simplest possible explanation,
such as the one I'm giving you here, or if we analyze
language with advanced mathematics and engineering 
communication theory, we can say this with total 
confidence:

"Messages, languages and coded information never,
ever come from anything else besides a mind.
No one has ever produced a single example of a message 
that did not come from a mind."

Nature can create fascinating patterns - snowflakes,
sand dunes, crystals, stalagmites and stalactites. Tornadoes 
and turbulence and cloud formations.

But non-living things cannot create language. They
*cannot* create codes. Rocks cannot think and they
cannot talk. And they cannot create information.

It is believed by some that life on planet earth arose 
accidentally from the "primordial soup," the early ocean which 
produced enzymes and eventually RNA, DNA, and primitive cells.

But there is still a problem with this theory: It fails to 
answer the question, 'Where did the information come from?'

DNA is not merely a molecule. Nor is it simply a "pattern."
Yes, it contains chemicals and proteins, but those chemicals 
are arranged to form an intricate language, in the exact same way 
that English and Chinese and HTML are languages.

DNA has a four-letter alphabet, and structures very similar 
to words, sentences and paragraphs. With very precise 
instructions and systems that check for errors and correct them.

To the person who says that life arose naturally, 
you need only ask: "Where did the information come from?
Show me just ONE example of a language that didn't come 
from a mind."

As simple as this question is, I've personally presented it 
in public presentations and Internet discussion forums for 
more than four years. I've addressed more than 100,000 people, 
including hostile, skeptical audiences who insist that 
life arose without the assistance of God. 

But to a person, none of them have ever been able to 
explain where the information came from. This riddle is 
"So simple any child can understand; so complex, no atheist 
can solve."

You can hear or read the full presentation on this topic at 
http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=FcvCB&m=mpkuVQZOwTjn&b=qFgC5.AGgcwnMVGDUucqiA

Watch it on video:
http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=FcvCB&m=mpkuVQZOwTjn&b=tHV1NNhctcsG.yphyBhtzA

Matter and energy have to come from somewhere. Everyone can 
agree on that. But information has to come from somewhere, too! 

Information is separate entity, fully on par with matter and 
energy. And information can only come from a mind. If books 
and poems and TV shows come from human intelligence, then all
living things inevitably came from a superintelligence.

Every word you hear, every sentence you speak, every
dog that barks, every song you sing, every email you read,
every packet of information that zings across the Internet, 
is proof of the existence of God. Because information
and language always originate in a mind.

In the beginning were words and language.

In the Beginning was Information.

When we consider the mystery of life - where it came from 
and how this miracle is possible - do we not at the same time 
ask the question where it is going, and what its purpose is?

Respectfully Submitted,

Perry Marshall


----------



## NOWitall (Sep 18, 2009)

jeez folks

give a fella a book on theology and suddenly hes solved the answers of the universe.

its ALL conjecture ALL OF IT.

were dealing with science and math so complex only about 2% of the population can even understand the questions.

were dealing with books, written by men. humans. never seen a copyright all rights reserved to god stamp on anything.

you think its right, i mean sure every single other peice of recorded history is shaded one way or the other.

but i mean humans wouldnt go to all the trouble of writing a book just to get people to do what they wanted.

ever read stranger in a strange land??? now read the unabridged edition.

everything is a rewrite, even the sacred Torah was based on earlier works.

so yal trust in the translation of a translation of a translation that wasnt translated right to begin with.

and u know what, go ahead and blame it all on god, its the easiest way to escape personal responsability and avoid having to think any truely deep thoughts.


i wish id thought of this in school

2+3=god, batlle of the republic happened in the year god, structure of the universe hell everybody knows thats god, where do gravitons come from why those are gods eyelashes, and gravity? why gravity is just the force of gods breath as he exhales towards us.

so why dig any deeper, obviously god did it all, we dont need to study or measure, observe and record, whenever we reach something too hard to comprehend instead of trying to solve it we can just say god did it. think about all that time thats been wasted discovering gravatational rotation, sorting out the whole heliocentric thing, trying to crack the atom, trying to cure cancer, trying to feed starving children.

we should have all realized that the universe is perfect, and that everything is exactly the way it should be, and it was never intended to be any other way.
nothing has gone awry.

now i understand the whole irreducible complexity thing, it means whenever something seems complex, we should run away screaming about witches and begging gods fogiveness for being so bold as to want an actual answer to a question.


and ive takin a philosophy class or two myself brah, and i know your tactics all to well.
argueing 101, never ever argue your own point. state it once, then proceed to shoot holes in the other argument.

thats some serious lowballin man, and the worst kind of intellectual cowardice.
come up with a couple brain teasers then throw some glitter and tell em to ignore the man behind the curtain.
a couple riddles and some schoolyard smartmouth doesnt prove the existence of god.
because you can form a logic trap, doesnt prove god exists.
metaphor doesnt prove god exists.
even the existence of information, does NOT prove the existence of god.
and you know why.

because information is not a separate entity anymore than justice is a separate entity, not anymore than happy is a seperate entity.
becuase these are all abstractions, information does not exist, perception of that information can occur.
but the information does not exist. or if it does it only exist during the brief intervel between expression and perception.
take a rock floating in space. is that information?? by your definition it is, that the rock exists forever in a pure state of information. that before it is observed it exists as information, and even if its never observed its still information.

and if humans and all the universe, are nothing but information, and what with information being a perceptual abstraction, and information can only come from a mind, then are we pre-percieved abstractions??? meer daydreams??? war and peace is not information to someone that cant read.

or how bout this one yourtype always forgets, stopping one step shy to save face.

if no effect can happen without a cause, and the only possible cuase for the universe is a supreme creator, then what was the supreme creators cause??
gods god???? should we maybe worship him instead and cut out the middleman??

no.

if a telescope sees the rock, is it information then? or only if its written down. and was the information written down, or was perception written down.

your still trying to bottleneck it back to god, using deep thoughts to avoid deep thinking. there is no information. NONE. there is only perception. if you write your knowledge down it doesnt become information, it becomes garbage. if someone looks at it, and percieves it, and comprehends it, its still not information, its knowledge again. information is what you call something you dont know.

information is a blanket term, and its a cop out.

you wanna prove the existance of god with some basic "i will always tell you the truth, what i just said is a lie" bullshit.

good luck with that.

where can i sign up to tour around proving that i can niether prove nor disprove something, thats gotta be the sweetest racket i ever heard of


----------



## NOWitall (Sep 18, 2009)

wait wait ive got a great one you can use.

somethings would be very difficult to accomplish, so god did it.

now we finally know who built the pyramids.

it was god.

to quote a not so famous movie

"lordy hallelujah, pass the ammo, praise the lord"



here ill prove the existance of god right fast
mankind has been at war since the begining of recorded history.
indicating it may be in our nature to inflict suffering on others.
and since theres no way we could be aggressive unless we were all made that way originally.
the simple fact that serial killers exist and that people are routinely tortured and executed.
proves conclusivly that there is a god, there can be no effect without cause, so something had to cause our genetic predisposition towards violence.
and since we already know that evolution never happened, and that all the dinosaur bones were put in the rock, by god, so archeologists would have something to do several thousand years later.
then only god could have created us to be the insane, bloodthirtsy, greedy, hipocritical, self righteous, self serving little ingrates we are.

it makes perfect sense

my god says thou shalt not kill. so you better start worshipping my god or ill kill you.
oh wait im sorry, the holy land you say, wow, well we better get to looting.
oh and when we get home and my wife asks, lets call it a "crusade" that way its not murder, its just spreadin the word of the lord, with a sword, and maybe some fire, perhaps a little mass genocide with a touch of ethnic clensing.

then my religion will be the holiest one of all


----------



## Brazko (Sep 18, 2009)

NOWitall said:


> jeez folks
> 
> give a fella a book on theology and suddenly hes solved the answers of the universe.
> 
> ...


Well, Glad, I read the RePost.and the Next. Sorry you Have Taken Offencs to Me Placing up some literature that was meant for Discussion, That was Philosophy 1on1..

And this is the Part where I'm Afraid of The Boogedy Booga Boo Man!! 

That Grateful Dead Intellectual Dance Doesn't Mean Much , 

The first Cut was Nice, I thought and the edit:

You Want to address the Post go ahead, I don't Hide behind Smoke/Mirrors it's Me.. I Can Addrees Either One, you R the Post, but You've already Chosen, Right? So B It, 


You can't Stand God, Neither, Right? Can't Stand to Hear the Name God. What it means, all the evil Things its causes the World to suffer From? Get a phucking Grip, Bro'. NO matter how intelligent or Ignorant a person may be, irreducible Complexity, Right? You're A Joke.. Who do you you blame, right, Everybody, Fuck Us, Fuck the World, hey..Fuck You, (you're Words not Mine )

Irreducible Complexity 

Hey, who's Stopping You from Changing that Sick Decrepit Avatar, oh My Bad, Not God, Your Sick Ass... Don't blame nobody but yourself, I prefer if you continue with the Chaotic Misc. Flaming Meteor metaphors that takes your Ass Out, because you got bad Luck!!! You don't have BAd Luck!! BAd karma!!psst, You Are just Pure/Plain , Fucked UP!! Nobody's placing you There, You live There, and I'm Okay with You living There, I need the information, I have an AVid image of exactly where I could be and why I choose NOt 2 Be, A valiD reason You Are, A Joke, You get No Pity from Me,
but I ain't Mad atCha', it's Called Life tho', Do something About It, and Stop dwelling ON how you Hate the Concept of everything Consumed with God, and for that Reason, Your Life can not be what It Should because the Real World is Overrun by Fairytales, and Myths, and Horrors to unknown because Man thinks there is A God and it's ruining my personal capabilities of being able to achieve things realistically in the REal world, 

A Joke, 
I'm Scared
Boogey Man

Now I will Send you to Bed with Nightmares, GOd loves You 


aggggggggh, the Agonyeee,ee,e

p.s. Thank God for Giving Me the Patience to Sit Back and Read this B.S. before actually commenting, everyone knows Poison Kills Poison. That Inellectual Mangled Garble doesn't Mean Shit, there is Information out There, you Know, 

You Got Boot Straps Don't Cha Boi, Well Pull them Bastards uP!!


----------



## NOWitall (Sep 18, 2009)

Brazko said:


> You can't Stand God, Neither, Right? Can't Stand to Hear the Name God. What it means, all the evil Things its causes the World to suffer From? Get a phucking Grip, Bro'. NO matter how intelligent or Ignorant a person may be, irreducible Complexity, Right? You're A Joke.. Who do you you blame, right, Everybody, Fuck Us, Fuck the World, hey..Fuck You, (you're Words not Mine )
> 
> Irreducible Complexity
> 
> ...



you know what.

i like you dude. you probly have about the best bead on where im at right now than almost anyone. u caught me wrong here and there, but im sure i did the same to you.

first. i wasnt arguing for irreducable complexity. i dont know if that came off.

second. i have nothing against god. god is a great and wonderfull thing be god real or not. i was taught that god was love. not such a bad sentiment. i dont really even have... ok ive got a problem with religion. but its less a problem with religion, than it is people's lack of followthrough. how almost all of em just pick and choose the parts of their religion they feel fits in with their world view. dont get me wrong, ive known many of the truely devout, the ones that do live it. and it is an amazing thing to behold in this day and age. naw i just dont like it when people try and conclusively answer scientific questions with something that is unverifiable. 

other than that your spot on  
today was not a good day, and i reckon i was itchin for a fight. not an excuse i know.

but i am, very angry.

i know i live in the house i built. i know the decisions ive made, and i made em. many, i knew full well the consequences. i did choose to be where im at now, and in many ways, theres no other way i could have done it. a perfect example of cuasality, to get where im at now, i had to decide to leave the road i was on. a road that i had previously chosen, various iterations of that back for awhile. but im still better off.

but the anger thing is an issue. im mostly angry at myself for letting it all get so far out of hand, the rest of my anger is aimed at a male i beleive acted without honor.
but since its hard to stay angry at myself its easier to be angry at the world. like u said pretty fucked up. but i dont really have anywhere to vent, reckon ive been venting here.

in the future i will see what i can do about all the whining, and try not to let mood cloud reason.

thanky


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## IAm5toned (Sep 18, 2009)

read the short story "The Last Question' by Isaac Aasimov. Very interesting perspective on things.


----------



## Brazko (Sep 18, 2009)

NOWitall said:


> you know what.
> 
> i like you dude. you probly have about the best bead on where im at right now than almost anyone. u caught me wrong here and there, but im sure i did the same to you.
> 
> ...


It's All Good kNowatcha' Kno, you are Very intelligent, I can tell.. And part of What I was going to Say regarding you're Post, until I felt the UpperCut , and then the Right, and the Left .. 

I wasn't Argueing Irreducible Complexity, I just had no clue what it meant, and AS I discovered what it meant I knew you had some Vast knowledge about the subject per se'

I Agree with your Position on Religion and People, It is Part of my Disgust as Well....specifically the People's part

&
I apologize too, 

I can Be extreme at Times, Blinded by My Passion and Fury....

Was Heading to Bed, But I'm Going To blow 1 for tomorrow's Good Luck that We may Find...


----------



## CrackerJax (Sep 19, 2009)

The problem in all of the ID arguments is, G*D is not of the physical world, and by Trying to use science.... the religious make a fatal flaw. G*D cannot be disproven by science, nor can G*D be proven by science.

G*D does not match up with physical laws. It lies outside of science. It's a myth.


----------



## Trypt (Sep 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> The problem in all of the ID arguments is, G*D is not of the physical world, and by Trying to use science.... the religious make a fatal flaw. G*D cannot be disproven by science, nor can G*D be proven by science.
> 
> G*D does not match up with physical laws. It lies outside of science. It's a myth.


myth as in a story created by man, i'd say most current views of "god" are.

as far as existing beyond our physical world...
does anyone at all read into what i say about consciousness, string theory, multiple dimensions and energy??


----------



## CrackerJax (Sep 19, 2009)

Regardless.... anything you use to describe the universe falls within the laws of physics.

G*D does not fall into that category.

So in the end, you are saying something outside our laws of the universe created it. 

You CAN say that, but that's about all you can say. It's impossible to proceed further, because we have no tools to disseminate the answer with. It's as if G*D is metric and we don't have metric tools. We can't work on the problem.

Trying to prove G*D with science is pointless and incorrect. It cannot be done.

G*D is a postulate, nothing more.


----------



## Trypt (Sep 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Regardless.... anything you use to describe the universe falls within the laws of physics.
> 
> G*D does not fall into that category.
> 
> ...



You sir for being very open minded about god are very close minded about man

being conscious WE ARE GODS

http://highly-sensitive-people.group.stumbleupon.com/forum/88538/

my theories are NOT from standard science they are from ME and i correlate facts, history, math, science, and PROBABILITY myself,
so by your logic, since my thoughts are a product of man they are completely incorrect and i lack the ability to ever become correct?

sorry buddy, just because YOU arent ready to handle what the universe and beyond have to offer, doesnt mean you speak for us all. 
So, why should we listen to you? do you study this in school, or are you just "old and experienced" enough to have that sort of opinion that won't ever be swayed


btw: we do have our god's metric tools
that would be our own power of thought TYVM sir.


----------



## CrackerJax (Sep 19, 2009)

We are not g*Ds... just smart cousins of the apes. Maybe not that smart either. For all we know, we might be the dumbest sentients in the universe. 

UNKNOWN. Do not fear it. Do not try and fill the gap prematurely.

Man is a narcissist. never forget that. Put away the mirror.....


----------



## Trypt (Sep 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> We are not g*Ds... just smart cousins of the apes. Maybe not that smart either. For all we know, we might be the dumbest sentients in the universe.
> 
> UNKNOWN. Do not fear it. Do not try and fill the gap prematurely.
> 
> Man is a narcissist. never forget that. Put away the mirror.....


yeah yeah yeah

all i saw was filler for your point, no actual reference or fact


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## shrigpiece (Sep 19, 2009)

Trypt said:


> You sir for being very open minded about god are very close minded about man
> 
> being conscious WE ARE GODS
> 
> ...


techniqualy you are not being open minded, considering other peoples theorys is, thus its all very confusing i think we exsist because we just do, and the universe is a side effect, to be honest i have no cluePEACE


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## CrackerJax (Sep 19, 2009)

What's to reference anyways? I already dissolved your hypothesis. poof....
the rest was just advice on where you left the tracks.

It's not about us. We aren't the center of anything. Ur first mistake. We just like to believe we are.


----------



## shrigpiece (Sep 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> What's to reference anyways? I already dissolved your hypothesis. poof....
> the rest was just advice on where you left the tracks.
> 
> It's not about us. We aren't the center of anything. Ur first mistake. We just like to believe we are.


i kinder agree but this is a interesting thread just something i figgered out on mushrooms


----------



## CrackerJax (Sep 19, 2009)

Not U... trypt. 

I'm not here to disprove everything which comes down the pike. 

The trouble starts when ppl use a source as a validation of itself. (Bible) It's quite ridiculous to do and at the same time wanting to be taken seriously by others.

The other trouble is when the religious try and use science to prove G*D. It can't work by their very own doctrine. You know.... ahem... the source. 

It's all circular no matter how specific (DNA codes) or detailed (string theories). They are all inapplicable to proving G*D.

Trying to disprove some bit of Evolution (never done yet) gets you absolutely NO closer to proving G*D.

Packing a bowl now.


----------



## shrigpiece (Sep 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Not U... trypt.
> 
> I'm not here to disprove everything which comes down the pike.
> 
> ...


bowls are goodi was a little confused when you said


----------



## Trypt (Sep 19, 2009)

shrigpiece said:


> bowls are goodi was a little confused when you said


like i stated earlier im completely open to the possibility of there being no central figure of intelligence or creation

i dont know why people think IM trying to disprove or prove anything here, im jsut trying to give a better understanding through valid points on topics very close to that of our own universe's creation.

I do however think that , NOT HUMANS, but CONSCIOUSNESS IN ITSELF is the center of all things relating to us in this universe though.


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## NOWitall (Sep 19, 2009)

Trypt said:


> like i stated earlier im completely open to the possibility of there being no central figure of intelligence or creation.



i think you should keep open the possibility that theres no ancillary figures of intelligence


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## IAm5toned (Sep 19, 2009)

I myself, am a Pastafarian. I find this religion meets and exceeds both my personal and spiritual requirements...

you can read up on it here:

http://venganza.org


RAmen 
it all started with the:

*  Open Letter To Kansas School Board  *


I am writing you with much concern after having read of your hearing to decide whether the alternative theory of Intelligent Design should be taught along with the theory of Evolution. I think we can all agree that it is important for students to hear multiple viewpoints so they can choose for themselves the theory that makes the most sense to them. I am concerned, however, that students will only hear one theory of Intelligent Design.
Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.
It is for this reason that I&#8217;m writing you today, to formally request that this alternative theory be taught in your schools, along with the other two theories. In fact, I will go so far as to say, if you do not agree to do this, we will be forced to proceed with legal action. I&#8217;m sure you see where we are coming from. If the Intelligent Design theory is not based on faith, but instead another scientific theory, as is claimed, then you must also allow our theory to be taught, as it is also based on science, not on faith.
Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people don&#8217;t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.
I&#8217;m sure you now realize how important it is that your students are taught this alternate theory. It is absolutely imperative that they realize that observable evidence is at the discretion of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Furthermore, it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His chosen outfit, which of course is full pirate regalia. I cannot stress the importance of this enough, and unfortunately cannot describe in detail why this must be done as I fear this letter is already becoming too long. The concise explanation is that He becomes angry if we don&#8217;t.
You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.





In conclusion, thank you for taking the time to hear our views and beliefs. I hope I was able to convey the importance of teaching this theory to your students. We will of course be able to train the teachers in this alternate theory. I am eagerly awaiting your response, and hope dearly that no legal action will need to be taken. I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.
Sincerely Yours,
Bobby Henderson, concerned citizen.
P.S. I have included an artistic drawing of Him creating a mountain, trees, and a midget. Remember, we are all His creatures.


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## NOWitall (Sep 20, 2009)

hahahahahhaa dude 

u kick ass


JAH-PASTAFARI


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## krustofskie (Sep 20, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> I myself, am a Pastafarian.


I have decided to help save the planet so I am joining up to a Pirate school. Just starting work on the lathe to make my peg leg.

So ther RRR Jim lad and shiver me timbers till we save the world, or we will all end up in David Jones's Locker when the ice caps melt.

So is the way of the Pastafarian, it is so written.


----------



## Trypt (Sep 20, 2009)

To see a world in a grain of sand
and heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
and eternity in an hour


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## IAm5toned (Sep 21, 2009)

Trypt said:


> To see a world in a grain of sand
> and heaven in a wild flower,
> Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
> and eternity in an hour


_

-William Blake, __Auguries of Innocence_



All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. 

_-Attributed to Edgar Allen Poe, unverified

_Poetry may make us from time to time a little more aware of the deeper, unnamed feelings which form the substratum of our being, to which we rarely penetrate; for our lives are mostly a constant evasion of ourselves. 

_T.S. Eliot_


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## CrackerJax (Sep 21, 2009)

The only proof religion brings to the table is that man is a superstitious creature.


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## Brazko (Sep 21, 2009)

Consequently, Religion has brought us Proof of everything we Know Today, even Science, let me share... 


Ask A Scientist​ 

"Okay, it all depends on what you mean
by "science." If you mean simply being inquisitive and testing
the world around you to find out what you can and can't do, then
"science" originated with the emergence of the first intelligent
life forms on the planet. Through trial and error, these creatures
lived their lives from day to day, learning what they needed to
survive and gaining new knowledge every day from new things
they tried to do (or get away with), often passing on this
information to others of their kind in one way or another."


This Was not a Religion, but a Belief System, a.k.a Religion


"If, however, you mean the modern scientific method, that of
observing natural phenomena, formulating a hypothesis about
it, testing that hypothesis with experiments, collecting data,
and then theorizing about the phenomena based of the information
you've gathered and the tests you've conducted, then I'd have
to say that true science originated separately with the Greeks
and the Chinese -- both these cultures used what we now know
as the scientific method to discover new ways of doing things,
and how the world around them actually worked."

Both of these Cultures were submerged and based in Mythology, Mysticism, Religion, Gods/gods, & Beliefs... Science was just the documentation of their efforts.. 

I remain confused on why people use the earth flat, sun rotated around earth, blah, blah, as a fault of REligion....There was no separation of Church/State/Religion/Science/Politics, It was 1 big Conglomerate (Elite Class), with each bearing Power Headed differently by each depending on time, place, & era, and pretty much No different then it is today, however unnoticeable and to our disbelief


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## CrackerJax (Sep 21, 2009)

You cannot begin to talk about science and then start out with... It depends on what you mean.....

Science has no ambiguities that aren't becoming clearer.....

Religion moves in the opposite way as Science progresses.

Hence the desperation of the religious, as they see it all slipping away.

They don't want to wake up to reality.... they want the fairy tale.


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## Brazko (Sep 21, 2009)

I didn't have to start with it depends, as it is conclusively the same point in any two dicrepancies I made...

But I used depend b/c there is primary only two ways 2 speak about the nature of Science..
Less I Am Wrong, Explain

Everything else is your Opinion, I don't see only that, although I recognize it to be a partial truth/ lie of what the wHole Truth is...


----------



## CrackerJax (Sep 21, 2009)

The nature of science is the application of true evidence which is then constantly checked and rechecked for flaws.

Again, it is impossible to compare religion and science. they are not equals.... religion is far inferior and uneducated.


----------



## Brazko (Sep 21, 2009)

If it is True, Y recheck for flaws, that are in Fact Found, No Truth to begin There.....

Again, your Opinion.. Personal & Pointless


----------



## Sure Shot (Sep 21, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> You again have it completely backwards.
> 
> Atheism isn't easy..... it's a very hard way to live. There is little comfort in NOT having an afterlife. It takes a true mental discipline to stay in a logical and objective mode.
> 
> Religion is the EASY way out.


My sentiments exactly.

If only we hadn't taken from the "tree of knowledge" we could all still be blissfully ignorant.


----------



## Brazko (Sep 21, 2009)

Sure Shot said:


> My sentiments exactly.
> 
> If only we hadn't taken from the "tree of knowledge" we could all still be blissfully ignorant.


 
+rep 4 the link and Mnemonic - *L.O.W. T.H.C.* starts with an imbalance in one of these;
*L*ight *O*xygen* W*ater *T*emperature *H*umidity *C*o2 My Youtube grows

What you Say about "Trees of Knowledge?" Aay, Okay!!


----------



## CrackerJax (Sep 21, 2009)

Brazko said:


> If it is True, Y recheck for flaws, that are in Fact Found, No Truth to begin There.....
> 
> Again, your Opinion.. Personal & Pointless



Y recheck for flaws? I understand your confusion. I guess religious folks aren't in the habit of checking for flaws.

We check and recheck so we can fine tune the information to the highest degree of accuracy possible. Outstanding and insightful ideas rarely enter into any mainstream instantly. Most great ideas are developed over time.

Of course making up a story like the Bible is much easier. Even so, it is full of errors and half truths. You can bet a dollar that no scientific methodologies or true verification ever took place in the writing of the Bible.


----------



## fish601 (Sep 21, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Of course making up a story like the Bible is much easier. Even so, it is full of errors and half truths.


there are alot of alleged errors in the bible i have researched many of them the ones i researched i found no errors.

If you have time would you tell me a few that is infact an error? I can't research all of but i would like a list of the top five.

maybe add a few half truths?


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## Brazko (Sep 21, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Y recheck for flaws? I understand your confusion. I guess religious folks aren't in the habit of checking for flaws.
> 
> We check and recheck so we can fine tune the information to the highest degree of accuracy possible. Outstanding and insightful ideas rarely enter into any mainstream instantly. Most great ideas are developed over time.
> 
> Of course making up a story like the Bible is much easier. Even so, it is full of errors and half truths. You can bet a dollar that no scientific methodologies or true verification ever took place in the writing of the Bible.


 
Cracker, You obviously are confused.. You stated, Science is of True Evidence.. If you have rechecked it & found faults, It wasn't True... You know reasoning/Truth will prevail because you observe from previous trial and ErroR, until finally the Truth is Formulated

Science is a Baby Boomer compared to the Bible, The Bible for what ever purpose it Is Taken For, Was not Put together in, let's say a few hundreds of years, It is a Work that Spans a few thousands of Years, and With That Said, Religion/Mystical Practice Spans back even Further...

Yes, Check / RecheK is the Motto.. Doesn't Matter if it's Science or Religion, The tuth Does not Skim the Surface, that is why no answers lie there, Its the Checking / Rechecking, Searching Deeper lies the Truth..

When I speak of unjust comparison or a being of unequality, It is because You cannot compare a Skimmed Lie with a Deeper Truth..

ie. the Lucy Ape 2 Man pic that's been floating around, A Skimmed Lie not the Whole Truth...

Stop confusing Scientific Fact/ Means with being part of Your Personal Opinion..

It's your Personal Opinion b/c you Choose to compare invalidated Skimmed Lies, with the validating method of Probing Deeper, that is Clearly a Choice of Recogntion & limited Understanding...

and for a Person who promotes IntellectuaLlism, this Clearly does not demostrate it...


----------



## Brazko (Sep 21, 2009)

What's the Saying? Science/Religion is Like Apples and Oranges, Yes... But they are Both Fruit and Satisfy Hunger...Yes, The Whole Truth


----------



## CrackerJax (Sep 21, 2009)

No, I said science only CONSIDERS evidence and follows what keeps coming back as consistent and verifiable.

Religion does not.

Ur the one who is confused. You try to use science as either a comparable system to view the world as religion, or that science can somehow prove G*D.

Both assumptions are incorrect and logically flawed.


----------



## Brazko (Sep 21, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Consequently, Religion has brought us Proof of everything we Know Today, even Science, let me share...
> 
> 
> Ask A Scientist​
> ...


This Is The Science I aM Familiar With, it has nothing to Do with, Being the Truth, however, it Finds the tRuth....



CrackerJax said:


> The nature of science is the application of true evidence which is then constantly checked and rechecked for flaws.
> 
> Again, it is impossible to compare religion and science. they are not equals.... religion is far inferior and uneducated.


,  I Concede, You're R, I'M confuZed ,


----------



## CrackerJax (Sep 21, 2009)

The Bible is a guidebook for primitive man... pre science man. 

The two are not compatible. If they were, you wouldn't see all of the religious running around trying to find some room for their beliefs at the Inn of science. If that doesn't work, then trying to disprove evolution to try an prove a myth G*D (which isn't possible).

Both are futile and gradually society is moving away from it. 

Hence all the kicking and screaming from the "mythers".


----------



## Brazko (Sep 21, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> The Bible is a guidebook for primitive man... pre science man.
> 
> The two are not compatible. If they were, you wouldn't see all of the religious running around trying to find some room for their beliefs at the Inn of science. If that doesn't work, then trying to disprove evolution to try an prove a myth G*D (which isn't possible).
> 
> ...


Ok fish, I'mean Cracker...I Concede , no Pun intended....Fish


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## CrackerJax (Sep 21, 2009)

It's a hollow victory.  In the end U must follow ur own path. 

Just keep the noise down, some of us are trying to think.....


----------



## fish601 (Sep 21, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> The Bible is a guidebook for primitive man... pre science man.
> 
> The two are not compatible. If they were, you wouldn't see all of the religious running around trying to find some room for their beliefs at the Inn of science. If that doesn't work, then trying to disprove evolution to try an prove a myth G*D (which isn't possible).
> 
> ...


 


science is young it will find that the bible is truth


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## CrackerJax (Sep 21, 2009)

The Bible keeps falling farther and farther into the superstition realm with each passing year. 

The Bible will never catch up. The race is already been decided. 

It wasn't even close......


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## Sure Shot (Sep 21, 2009)

fish601 said:


> science is young it will find that the bible is truth



ROFLMAO>>>>>>>>>>>>>


----------



## Brazko (Sep 22, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> It's a hollow victory.  In the end U must follow ur own path.
> 
> Just keep the noise down, some of us are trying to think.....


Is that what you Call it, thinking , It's no Victory, Win or Loss, Failure to Comprehend is simply that. You win because you offered nothing in return except for Ignorance.. It's Rabid and Widespread everywhere.. You are supposed to prove that an Ape transformed into Man, like I should have to Prove that God went SHazaAM.. No, it's a False Assessment, and to Argue it One way or the Other is illogical and Mind numbing. Failure to Comprehend is Simply That.. but continue with that thought process, it is Your path,


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## CrackerJax (Sep 22, 2009)

I comprehend religion. I was raised on it. I've read the Bible. A few times all the way through.... have you? I took Theology as a minor at the University level.... have you?

I comprehend it alright. It's a STORY.... nothing more. Wake up and live in the real world. It takes mental discipline, but is highly rewarding to be truly free of myth.


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## sunshine1754 (Sep 22, 2009)

Religion and science both lead to God. I love God.


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## CrackerJax (Sep 22, 2009)

That's about the only sane way to look at it if you r religious.  well done.


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## sunshine1754 (Sep 22, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> That's about the only sane way to look at it if you r religious.  well done.


I'm not religious.


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## CrackerJax (Sep 22, 2009)

Oh, so then ur a drifter....


----------



## sunshine1754 (Sep 22, 2009)

What do you mean?


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## CrackerJax (Sep 22, 2009)

You drift with the meme.... without adhering to it.


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## sunshine1754 (Sep 22, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> You drift with the meme.... without adhering to it.


No not really but okay


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## tinyTURTLE (Sep 22, 2009)

contrary to common belief, it is possible to believe in god without being a religious person.
same as you can go to a zoo and not be a zoologist.


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## CrackerJax (Sep 22, 2009)

A drifter.....


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## Trypt (Sep 22, 2009)

We all drift in space such is the nature of the dimension we inhabit
don't bring personal twists into religious discussion, it is what caused the original separation of man into different religions and belief structures which are still being fought today
instead set an example of enlightened thought.


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## CrackerJax (Sep 22, 2009)

uhhhh space cookie?


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## Trypt (Sep 22, 2009)

Space canna-cookie!


----------



## sunshine17542 (Sep 22, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> A drifter.....


dude shut up


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## Brazko (Sep 22, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I comprehend religion. I was raised on it. I've read the Bible. A few times all the way through.... have you? I took Theology as a minor at the University level.... have you?
> 
> I comprehend it alright. It's a STORY.... nothing more. Wake up and live in the real world. It takes mental discipline, but is highly rewarding to be truly free of myth.


Ha, Haha.....hahahahahahaha , I finally Get it.. You were traumatized as a Youngun, Force fed to believe something and upon waking Up, found it to be a LIe, feeling resentment that your past life couldn't have all been a waste, took a theology class for the Slightest hint of that it wasn't in Vain,....Got the big Slap on the BAck,...Yeah it's a Fairytale and it's been Armageddon since , I'm sorry, I feel for you Bro'.... 


NO, I didn't Read the Bible completely through, Not Once, Started in Genesis, skipped around until I made it to Exodus, and said to myself, This is giving Me a headache 

I never Went to College, so NO, I didn't take theology 

and Comprehension has nothing to do with how Intelligent you are, it's about the ability to gather/apply Intelligence, the Shit happens in the Womb, when Baby comes out and recognizes Moms voice, instantly Baby puts 2/2 together, It Comprehends....., Sure some babies struggle a bit now/then and on through life, We have a Word for that I believe....

It doesn't Take Mental Discipline to live in the REal World, It Takes Mental Discipline to Block out a Traumatized Past... but it is Best that this is So, you should be allowed a REwarding life and not be burden by such trauma, I make no Joke of this, it's REal, I Understand fully 

In Short:

I was raised by Christians, FreeMasons, Evolutionist, Jehovah Witnesses, Thugs, Crackheads, Atheists, REdnecks (my best buddies) all in a Small little country town, Where we all shared 1 thing in common... Knowlege & Freedom, to Be who You Choose to be... Let's See what is Our FreeMasons Lodge Motto, Yes Free and Accepted 

You can go up and down the line with any individual per group, and you would Sware that you were talking to some College Professor, Foreign Educator, etc..etc...

I'm sorry for your experience, but Knowledge is Power and We still remain free to Obtain it, w/o being forced into Shackles, as I have seen from an alarming distance how the abuse of Christian Faith Practice has became, but that is not the Fault of Christanity, It's the Way of tThe Capitalist Nation, Everything is Big Business, and if it's not Religion you get caught up in, Then it's your Health, Or Home/Shelter, or Food etc.. Etc.. NOne of these suggest wrong doing, We need these things, It just that some people Need your Money more, Big Business Baby!! Y pretend 2 be Blind and confuse the 2 haphazardly..

Like I said it's All Good Bro' I completely Understand Now...follow Your Path and in Time everything you Wish to Know will be revealed. -


----------



## Stoney McFried (Sep 22, 2009)

Pretty interesting read right here about how the church has opposed nearly every scientific and technological advancement throughout history.Here's the full article...http://www.asa3.org/asa/pscf/1986/jasa6-86aycock.html
And an excerpt which I think nicely sums up why religion is bad for you...
*Pope Leo XII proclaimed vaccinations sinful.*




If you any wish to attack science,and choose religion instead, I think,then, that that person should reject all science and technology,because that is what the church has done historically(and still does to this day.) Therefore, to be a truly religious person,you should not take advantage of the "evils" science has wrought.Like the computer you're using.Vaccines.Modern medicine.Your faith should be sufficient.


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## CrackerJax (Sep 22, 2009)

Yes, the hypocrisy of the religious is palpable.... 

Onward through the fog!!


----------



## Brazko (Sep 22, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Yes, the hypocrisy of the religious is palpable....
> 
> Onward through the fog!!


 
Alright Bro", Did I mis Sumtin' or, Did you Just mIss that Entire Beautiful Post.............

Keep It Movin then...


----------



## CrackerJax (Sep 22, 2009)

> Ha, Haha.....hahahahahahaha , I finally Get it.. You were traumatized as a Youngun, Force fed to believe something and upon waking Up, found it to be a LIe, feeling resentment that your past life couldn't have all been a waste, took a theology class for the Slightest hint of that it wasn't in Vain,....Got the big Slap on the BAck,...Yeah it's a Fairytale and it's been Armageddon since , I'm sorry, I feel for you Bro'....


No, you obviously don't get it. Your way off the mark. Although, now I can see why religion is attractive to you.



> NO, I didn't Read the Bible completely through, Not Once, Started in Genesis, skipped around until I made it to Exodus, and said to myself, This is giving Me a headache


And yet you believe it...




> I never Went to College, so NO, I didn't take theology
> 
> and Comprehension has nothing to do with how Intelligent you are, it's about the ability to gather/apply Intelligence, the Shit happens in the Womb, when Baby comes out and recognizes Moms voice, instantly Baby puts 2/2 together, It Comprehends....., Sure some babies struggle a bit now/then and on through life, We have a Word for that I believe....


Comprehension has EVERYTHING to do with intelligence. Don't kid urself. Baby instincts aside,...??? weird. Comprehension is the key to truly understanding. Biblical man looked at the same stars, and the same planets as you and I, but they didn't have comprehension of them. They had no idea what the moon was, just that it was there. Things you and I don't think about much. You don't look up at the moon the same way. Ppl in 2000 years will look at the moon different from us as well. Their comprehension will have increased. See how that works?? 





> It doesn't Take Mental Discipline to live in the REal World, It Takes Mental Discipline to Block out a Traumatized Past... but it is Best that this is So, you should be allowed a REwarding life and not be burden by such trauma, I make no Joke of this, it's REal, I Understand fully


Again, way off the mark. 

I


> n Short:
> 
> I was raised by Christians, FreeMasons, Evolutionist, Jehovah Witnesses, Thugs, Crackheads, Atheists, REdnecks (my best buddies) all in a Small little country town, Where we all shared 1 thing in common... Knowlege & Freedom, to Be who You Choose to be... Let's See what is Our FreeMasons Lodge Motto, Yes Free and Accepted
> 
> ...


Mumbo jumbo.... boogedy boo. Redundant in it's error.


----------



## Trypt (Sep 22, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> No, you obviously don't get it. Your way off the mark. Although, now I can see why religion is attractive to you.
> 
> And yet you believe it...
> 
> ...


it seems very much you're wishing to be the intelligent one in the thread in regards to spirituality, if this is the case you should stfu and humble yourself, else be pegged a wannabe nu-shaman or something


----------



## CrackerJax (Sep 23, 2009)

Or I'm simply responding directly to a post. Which is more probable? Take ur time and think it thru.


----------



## Brazko (Sep 23, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Comprehension has EVERYTHING to do with intelligence. Don't kid urself. Baby instincts aside,...??? weird. Comprehension is the key to truly understanding. Biblical man looked at the same stars, and the same planets as you and I, but they didn't have comprehension of them. They had no idea what the moon was, just that it was there. Things you and I don't think about much. You don't look up at the moon the same way. Ppl in 2000 years will look at the moon different from us as well. Their comprehension will have increased. See how that works??
> .


I'll respond to this Part as it is the Only thing worth noting...

Baby instincts, are to Suckle>> They comprehend the scent/Voice they heard for 9mos as their Mother and appropriate their behavior towards it.. They will instinctively Suckle anything, and then raise Hell for the Scent/Voice of Mommy....Jeez Bro' look it Up 

When Biblical man Looked up At the Sun, Moon, & Stars... No they didn't comprehend what A telescope was that would permit us to observe things closer, allowing us to Know, not Comprehend.... However, they did notice through sightful observations of the Sun, Moon, & Stars...the cycle of Seasons & when to plant/harvest their crops.., Observation & Comprehension.. or they had a Farmers Almanac  



CrackerJax said:


> Or I'm simply responding directly to a post. Which is more probable? Take ur time and think it thru.


 
Well, you definitely are not responding to the content within the Posts, outside of boasting Up your Wounded eGo and sharing your Personal Opinions... 

I'll take Nu-Shaman for 2000 Trebek 

it's been Fun CJ, but your University Level Intelligence has offered me No further insight, of anything... I'll let you continue berating Fish, that atleast helps me to Understand how differing People interact amongst each other,.. Tom & Jerry has become Holy Grounds of Profoundness


----------



## CrackerJax (Sep 23, 2009)

Brazko said:


> I'll respond to this Part as it is the Only thing worth noting...
> 
> Baby instincts, are to Suckle>> They comprehend the scent/Voice they heard for 9mos as their Mother and appropriate their behavior towards it.. They will instinctively Suckle anything, and then raise Hell for the Scent/Voice of Mommy....Jeez Bro' look it Up
> 
> ...


Hooboy.... I never said they couldn't comprehend ANYTHING! They just didn't have the same knowledge as us. They were primitive. We all look at the same stars, but they had NO idea those were suns out there. they had no idea that Venus was a PLANET!! No ideas... no ideas about their world, so they made up stories to fit their situation as best they could. 
No fault there.... that would be normal for a pre science ppl. What is faulty is that 2000 years later, we have the answers... lots of them.... and yet some ppl still cling to the primitive explanations. 

Their comprehension levels were... primitive. The Bible reflects the primitive lifestyle. 

Pre science ... religion. 

You don't gain insight because you don't want to.

You want the comfort of the fairy tale.... I understand.


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## sunshine1754 (Sep 23, 2009)

It's nice outside and rollitup is getting boring


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## CrackerJax (Sep 23, 2009)

Then why post it... just go outside....


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## Brazko (Sep 23, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Hooboy.... I never said they couldn't comprehend ANYTHING! They just didn't have the same knowledge as us. They were primitive. We all look at the same stars, but they had NO idea those were suns out there. they had no idea that Venus was a PLANET!! No ideas... no ideas about their world, so they made up stories to fit their situation as best they could.
> No fault there.... that would be normal for a pre science ppl. What is faulty is that 2000 years later, we have the answers... lots of them.... and yet some ppl still cling to the primitive explanations.
> 
> Their comprehension levels were... primitive. The Bible reflects the primitive lifestyle.
> ...


What Kind of Warped Reversed Psychology MineD Kontrolle are U using, I subit Jedi MAskter kiss-ass


----------



## CrackerJax (Sep 23, 2009)

I'm using common sense. Something in short supply with the religious...


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## Trypt (Sep 23, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I'm using common sense. Something in short supply with the religious...


your common sense is nothing but the product of man you lack faith in
you have contradicted yourself on more than one point and should simply stop posting in the thread...this time im serious otherwise please, try to hold a spiritual discussion with me 1on1

you claim open mindedness and common sense yet you provide no evidence you use them, this is why i will call you a hypocritical nu-shaman with things to learn about human interaction and intelligent discussion.


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## CrackerJax (Sep 23, 2009)

Of course common sense emanates from man... where else would it come from? Kind of a point there....

Please point out the contradictions instead of just blanketing me with a generalization. Make an effort.


----------



## Brazko (Sep 23, 2009)

Trypt said:


> your common sense is nothing but the product of man you lack faith in
> you have contradicted yourself on more than one point and should simply stop posting in the thread...this time im serious otherwise please, try to hold a spiritual discussion with me 1on1
> 
> you claim open mindedness and common sense yet you provide no evidence you use them, this is why i will call you a hypocritical nu-shaman with things to learn about human interaction and intelligent discussion.


 
NOoooooo, It's Very Hypnotizing, Turn Away from the Light, the REstleSS Long Sweaty Nights are not Worth It, you're Slipping, Can't hold ON much Longer.....Ur. Slip....ping..... Ohhh, NoOOoooooo


[youtube]56_g0SmU38w[/youtube]


----------



## newport78 (Sep 24, 2009)

Im, For the most part, With CJ.

From my experiences of living within a religious family I have noted the following:

#1 You seem to all be hypocritical people. Witch is, In my opinion, Completely expected of any human being, Some more so than others. What i mean by hypocritical though is that, For the most part, Religious people try to dis-prove science, And yet they continue to wash dishes in the dish washer, Drive there cars back and forth to church, Listen to religious music on the radio etc.

#2 Again, For the most part, And from my experiences. You all tend to be of fairly average IQ or lower. Not trying to flame anyone here or anything like that, But I have yet to see one religious argument that docent go one of multiple ways. The following being but a few examples.

(A) Being asked why we can prove "he" docent exist. (We ALL know how this one goes so not going further into it as we havent seen this)

(B) Constantly trying to prove your almighty being with the source of the idea. (Already talked about moving on)

(C) Arguing that this almighty being decided that instead of telling "Adam" and "Eve" his commandments, And make them traditional law. He decided "Hey, Dont munch on that fruit. I didnt put it here for you, I put it here for when i return in thousands of years" And opted to later come back for no apparent reason and carve them in stone. For his creations to later find. (I may be a little off on exactly who found it. As its been years since i went to church much less glanced at a bible. So im not 100% sure if it was "Jesus". However the point remains valid to an extent.

#3 Even from YOU'RE "great and holy" bible, He seems like he would be a fairly two faced, And quite frankly, Fairly ignorant being. Especially for his reputation. I mean in all seriousness here, We say the government is fucking (For lack of a better word.) us over constantly. To an extent, Yes, You're right. In actuality however, They are more mistaken. Where as "God", Seems too be more cruel, Psychotic if you would. I mean I have serious mental problems. Anger being one of them, But I have never had someone steal from me and me cut off there hand and then make them pay me back 5x what they stole. Along with the return of the stolen items. (And yes, I may be mixing a religion here and there, And I apologize, As stated before its been awhile.)

I could go on, But I feel as though I have made enough of a point. If I am mistaken please address the mistakes specifically. I will edit/concede as necessary.

If anyone would like to continue to debate with me, I will break out my family bible and recheck my statements before I post anything else.

Also, I dont want to be flamed for my views, Nor do I intend to flame anyone else.

End note: WHY THE FUCK MUST WE HAVE THESE DEBATES!?!? ESPECIALLY ON A SITE LIKE THIS!!! WE ARE ALL HYPOCRITS!!! I mean seriously. We sit on this forum, Talk about "Love", "Peace" etc. Yet we have debates over something completely pointless. Cant we just leave each other alone? I mean if I come to you and ask to debate, Or ask to learn about god, Thats all fine and dandy preach all you want. I do two simple things in life to prevent these things, And I ask you start to do it too.

#1 If someone has different beliefs than you. Address it when you notice it. All it takes is "Hey I dont agree with that religion lets leave religion alone" Its that simple. Why cant we do that? I understand this is an open debate topic, But im talking more for sharing your views when you arent invited to. So in short: DONT DO IT!!!

#2 If you do choose to debate. Please, Bring an open mind, Dont speak unless you're willing to A: Be proven/shown enough viable evidence to prove your wrong. B: Be open minded, And not only understand and comprehend what others are saying, But add it to the equation.

Thats all I have to say on the subject currently. Good luck, And good life to all of you. No matter what your religion.


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## PadawanBater (Sep 24, 2009)

Hey Newport, your post just made me want to address this because I see it pretty often, this is just the way I feel about it. I respect your opinion though, thanks for posting.

You said pretty much live and let live, people should just believe whatever and nobody else should care. I agree, but I think it becomes a little more complicated than that. When the things people believe start indirectly affecting other people with different beliefs, that's when it becomes a problem. 

Also, the way knowledge is gained and built upon is trial and error. While I'm fine with letting people believe whatever they wish to believe as long as it doesn't affect me, I can't say the same thing for letting those same people make decisions that will affect the future generations based on their, in my opinion, incorrect belief. Their belief is essentially keeping me from reaching my goals in an indirect kind of way. 

Some people think we don't know how to get the right information, or that the information we do have is flawed because we make mistakes and nothing is 100% certain. There is a perfect example in another thread, the "evolution is only a theory that you base your religion on", fish doesn't believe the dating methods we use to date things are accurate, he won't accept it no matter how much proof or evidence is provided. If we let people like that make big decisions that affect everyone, their belief has the potential to conflict with the best interests of the nation, people, world, etc. 


The bottom line is pretty much this; I don't think it's OK to let a person be content believing they know the correct information based on flawed logic which has already been compromised by their faith. Faith is a conflict of interest in the persuit of genuine knowledge.


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## NOWitall (Sep 24, 2009)

You want to know the real difference between religion and science??

you can sell religion to the uneducated. now i dont mean anything disrespectfull by that, im not saying anything about anybodies anything. 

im just saying i couldnt go door to door and sell people string theory, knock on a door and say "hello me and my brethren meet down at the old supercollider, heres a pamphlet on particle interaction with the quantum foam at the subatomic level, if it looks interesting why dont you come on by."

not to mention that will bring nobody any comfort. people LIKE the idea of god. they like having that there for them. it aint everbodies cupa tea (please keep in mind some one my misspellings are in fact phenetic spellings of various accents ) 

do yall know the old joke, about the 3 blind men that find an elephant??

3 blind men find an elephant one day, and they start feeling it, trying to figure out what it is. 
the first blind man has his hand on the side of the elephant and says "It's a wall.".
the second blind man has his hand on the elephants leg and says "NO, its a tree."
the third blind man has his hand on the elephants tail and says "your both wrong, its a snake."

i loves me some parable 

or how bout this one

one day a witch put a poison in the villages water supply (go with me here) and it drove all the villagers instantly insane. but the king had his own private water supply, and was unaffected by the poison.
soon the villagers began to notice how strange the king was acting. how he wasnt behaving like himself at all. untill finally they began to suspect that the king was insane. not thinking it wise to let a madman rule them they set out to hack him to death. so the king ran straight through town to the well. and drank as much as he could. and when the villigers arrived they said "thanks be praised the king has regained his sanity".

or how bout a nice old zen koan.

Master Gutei, whenever, he was questioned about Zen, just stuck up one finger. He had a young attendant, whom a visitor asked, "What Zen does your Master teach?" The boy stuck up one finger. hearing of this, the Master cut off the boys finger with a knife. As the boy ran screaming with pain, Gutei called to him. When the boy turned his head, Gutei stuck up one finger. The boy was enlightened.

hehehe, and u thought u had rough teachers 

so see here we got 3 parables, now a person could read alot into any one of them, but whos to say which interpretation is the correct one. or is it possible for ALL of them to be correct.

and i was taught to always leave em wanting more, sooooooooo.

ill leave you with this joke, please read the ENTIRE joke before you get angry.

this old couple has been trying to have a baby. so they go see a doctor, and the doctor wants a sperm sample.
the old man says thats gonna take awhile.
so the doctor gives him a specimin jar and tells him to take it home, and bring the sample back tomarrow.
so its the next day and the man comes back, but the jar is still empty. "what happened" asked the doctor.
"well," the man says, "i got home and i tried with my one hand, and then i tried with my otherhand, nothin. so then i called my wife in, and she tried with one hand, then she tried with her other hand, then she tried with both hands, then she even tried to use her mouth, dentures in dentures out, nothin.
so then we called the neighbors over, and they all tried for awhile, nothin."
"so we were hoping you could help us doctor."
"what the hell do you want me to do??"
welll says the man.
"can you get the lid off???"


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## newport78 (Sep 24, 2009)

I like that joke, Pretty funny. As to the circumstances upon which we scrutinize people: There is a difference in our dispositions on it bear. I look at it as we are sitting here, Just chilling. So why bother them? Why do they have to bother us? I guarantee you, If anyone of them have any sort of a higher ups job they get bitched at about it enough. As for those that dont. I say leave them be, We already have won this war. We dont need to ram the preverbal door constantly. Just strap some dynamite to it every now and then.

As for the pamphlet idea. If you make it, Send it to me, With 10 grams of dank. Il send you back a tape of going to my grandpas church and doing it. Right in the middle of the procession too.


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## CrackerJax (Sep 24, 2009)

he's not wrong about the education part .. and yes, the jokes were funny... 

It's a bit deeper than that. I believe that for the most part the church followers are made up of several groups.

1.) The Uneducated
2.) The Lonely
3.) The Brainwashed from birth
4.) The Manipulator 
5.) The Business Networker


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## Brazko (Sep 24, 2009)

Paddy, I feel the same way you do, but you cannot lose focus on the ball, If its corruption, greed, selfishness, hate, etc. That you despise.. Then don't choose to do a drive by shooting on religion, and hit all the innocent victims, trying to kill the guilty party. Narrow your aim, and you would probably start seeing the goals you wish to obtain manifest

Noitall: nice parables, too bad few are still only able to interpret 1 meaning:, the same meaning. Ready had

Newport, sorry no War..just the one inside your head

CJ - you continue to astound me, deep bro...deep


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## newport78 (Sep 24, 2009)

If you call it "A war inside" my head. Thats fine and dandy. Just felt as though I should give my input.


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## Brazko (Sep 24, 2009)

, don't get me Wrong, I appreciate that you shared, you do seem content in trying to explain yourself thoughtfully, I just Didn't agree that there was a War. I talk with religious & evolutionist types all the time, and usely participate in the two actively, & I never feel like I'm @ War.. Which side are you fiGhting for? Go New PorT Go -clap- -clap- Go nEw Port Go -clap- - clap-  !! It't all Good Bro'


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## newport78 (Sep 24, 2009)

Nice cheer.


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## fish601 (Sep 25, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I believe that for the most part the church followers are made up of several groups.
> 
> 1.) The Uneducated
> 2.) The Lonely
> ...


i guess crackerjax is one of a few that has it all figured out?.


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## Brazko (Sep 27, 2009)

Trypt said:


> myth as in a story created by man, i'd say most current views of "god" are.
> 
> as far as existing beyond our physical world...
> does anyone at all read into what i say about consciousness, string theory, multiple dimensions and energy??


Hey TryPt, I should've been delving in the Subject of String Theory a long time ago, I've always been fascinated with the subject, but only skimmed through small articles on it, or viewed short documentaries on the Subject..

But now, I think it's time for me to pick apart the science which has been laid for string Theory... Why? because it directly correlates, with the observations and gained knowledge I have already collected and concluded to with the Theory and Concept of Two Minds... String Theorist have already laid the Ground Work, which goes back to the Idea of Two Branes (membranes that is).. Here is a article on the Ekpyrotic Universe Theory, which does not contradict the Big Bang Theory, but insteads offer an alternative way that the currently Observed expansion might have been jumped started. Sorry, if it appears long, but it is a Easy and Good Read, for those who become overwhelmed & disinterested by long drawn out Jibberish, like Me ...

Think it's time to pick Up some Literature on String Theory, anyhow here's the ARticle....

[SIZE=+2]A Brief Introduction to the Ekpyrotic Universe [/SIZE]
Paul J. Steinhardt 
Princeton University​The Ekpyrotic Model of the Universe proposes that our current universe arose from a collision of two three-dimensional worlds (branes) in a space with an extra (fourth) spatial dimension. The proposal is interesting in and of itself, but also because it is the precursor to a more powerful and explanatory theory, the Cyclic Model described in earlier links on this page. 
*What is the Big Bang model? *

To the public, the model means that the universe began from a single point, underwent an explosion, and has been flying apart ever since. 
However, the big bang is not an explosion at all. This is an unfortunate misnomer that cosmologists would like to correct. But the bad name has stuck. 
The big bang is the expansion or stretching of space. It is not that things are flying out from a point. Rather, all things are moving away from each other. It is like having an infinite rubber sheet with people sitting on it. Stretch the rubber sheet, and all the people move away from one another. Each things they are at the center of an explosion. It is an optical illusion - everybody moves away from everybody else and there is no center. 
Run the story going back and time and the sheet was more and more unstretched and the people were closer together. When everybody is so close they are on top of one another, that is is the beginning of the big bang picture - the cosmic singularity. At that time, the universe has nearly infinite density and temperature. 
*Does the new theory contradict the Big Bang model? *
Here we must be careful. There are some skeptics who have written "the Big Bang never happened", by which they mean that the universe is not expanding today and it never has been. They say this despite overwhelming evidence in favor of expansion and cooling today and for the last 15 billion years. Our model does nothing to contradict this story. That is, the universe has been expanding for the past 15 billion years. 
What our model does is amend the earliest moments of the story. Instead of beginning with nearly infinite temperature and density, the universe began in a very different state - cold and nearly vacuous. The hot expanding universe we know came as a result of collision that brought the universe up to a large but finite temperature and density. The rest of the story is as the Big Bang model would have it, but the beginning is different. 
*Why do we need to replace the beginning of the story? *
Because the Big bang model, with no amendments, would tend to produce a universe that is highly inhomogeneous, with a warped and curved space, and no natural mechanism for making stars, galaxies and larger scale structures in the universe. Cosmologists have been trying to correct these deficiencies by amending the early history of the universe - within the first billionth billionth billionths of s second or less. One proposal is the "inflationary theory" of the universe, which proposes that the universe began hot and dense, and underwent a period of hyperexpansion. The ekpyrotic model is a new alternative, which is, in many ways, a more radical departure from the Big Bang concept. 
*What is the Ekpyrotic proposal? *
The model is based on the idea that our hot big bang universe was created from the collision of two three-dimensianal worlds moving along a hidden, extra dimension. The two three-dimensional worlds collide and ``stick," the kinetic energy in the collision is converted the quarks, electrons, photons, etc., that are confined to move along three dimensions. The resulting temperature is finite, so the hot big bang phase begins without a singularity. The universe is homogeneous because the collision and initiation of the big bang phase occurs nearly simultaneously everywhere. The energetically preferred geometry for the two worlds is flat, so their collision produces a flat big bang universe. According to Einstein's equations, this means that the total energy density of the Universe is equal to the critical density. Massive magnetic monopoles, which are overabundantly produced in the standard big bang theory, are not produced at all in this scenario because the temperature after collision is far too small to produce any of these massive particles. 
Quantum effects cause the incoming three-dimensional world to ripple along the extra-dimension prior to collision so that the collision occurs in some places at slightly different times than others. By the time the collision is complete, the rippling leads to small variations in temperature, which seed temperature fluctuations in the microwave background and the formation of galaxies. We have shown that the spectrum of energy density fluctuations is scale-invariant (the same amplitude on all scales). The production of a scale-invariant spectrum from hyperexpansion was one of the great triumphs of inflationary theory, and here we have repeated the feat using completely different physics. 
The building blocks of the ekpyrotic theory are derived from superstring theory. Superstring theory requires extra dimensions for mathematical consistency. In most formulations, 10 dimensions are required. In the mid-1990's, Petr Horava (Rutgers) and Ed Witten (IAS, Princeton) argued that, under certain conditions, an additional dimension opens up over a finite interval. Six dimensions are presumed to be curled up in a microscopic ball, called a Calabi-Yau manifold. The ball is too small to be noticed in everyday experience, and so our universe appears to be a four-dimensional (three space dimensions and one time dimension) surface embedded in a five-dimensional space-time. This five-dimensional theory, called heterotic M-theory, was formulated by Andre Lukas (Sussex). Ovrut and Dan Waldram (Queen Mary Westerfield College). According to Horava-Witten and heterotic M-theory, particles are constrained to move on one of the three-dimensional boundaries on either side of the extra dimensional interval. Our visible universe would be one of these boundaries; the other boundary and the intervening space would be hidden because particles and light cannot not travel across the intervening space. Only gravity is able to couple matter on one boundary to the other. In addition, there can exist other three-dimensional hypersurfaces in the interval, which lie parallel to the outer boundaries and which can carry energy. These intervening planes are called ``branes," short for membranes. The collision that ignites the hot big bang phase of the ekpyrotic model occurs when a three-dimensional brane is attracted to and collides into the boundary corresponding to our visible universe. 
*Where does the term "ekpyrotic" come from? *
The term ``ekpyrosis" means ``conflagration" in Greek, and refers to an ancient Stoic cosmological model. According to the model, the universe is created in a sudden burst of fire, not unlike the collision between three-dimensional worlds in our model. The current universe evolves from the initial fire. 
*Cautionary note:* As a final remark, we feel that it is important to realize that inflationary theory is based on quantum field theory, a well-established theoretical framework, and the model has been carefully studied and vetted for twenty years. Our proposal is based on unproven ideas in string theory and is brand new. While we appreciate the enthusiasm and interest with which the paper has been received, we would suggest some patience before promulgating these ideas in order to leave time for us to produce some follow-up papers that introduce additional elements and to allow fellow theorists time for criticism and sober judgment.


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## anhedonia (Sep 27, 2009)

fish601 said:


> i guess crackerjax is one of a few that has it all figured out?.


Alot of your comments are very paradoxical. Aren't you really saying YOU have it all figured out, I mean really, the way in which you refute science and at the same time ask naive questions that really reveal your misunderstanding of it. And also, christians have a flawed way of logic that keeps them always thinking inside the box. Thier questions are quite unique and easily answered by the logic of a great man with a son who created everything (need know nothing more than that), and rediculously enough, has a special plan for each person. Im sure if there was a great god he probably made the bible as a funny joke to see who it would acctually benifit(maby their is esoteric knowledge somewhere in there yet people dont understand...mysticism can take many odd and bizarre forms. never mind Im thinking of gnosticism) and people who are going around in circles chasing thier own tails. I remember being young in a baptist school and can quite clearly remember being flat out lied to. That teacher honestly believed and would tell us that one day we would all wake up and come to school but other kids and him of course wouldnt be there because of the rapture lol. And without saying names he assured us that there would be people in our class that wouldnt be raptured. Can you believe that shit? And my dad was paying his hard earned money so they could fill our young imaginations with lies.

Anyway just felt like posting. Enjoy your day


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## anhedonia (Sep 27, 2009)

Sooooo trite.


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## stonedroach (Sep 28, 2009)

It's time to leave all of our old god's behind us, there is no place for those primitive beliefs in the 21st century.


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## PadawanBater (Sep 28, 2009)

stonedroach said:


> It's time to leave all of our old god's behind us, there is no place for those primitive beliefs in the 21st century.


 
X's 2.

Makes me think of a good question...

If everyone became atheist, would that mean God failed? Isn't it impossible for an omnipotent being to fail at anything?


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## Brazko (Sep 28, 2009)

stonedroach said:


> It's time to leave all of our old god's behind us, there is no place for those primitive beliefs in the 21st century.


Yes!!, So True, We reMain so Primitive and Yet God continues to Evolve...., We still Remain aPe Like, just a bunch of dumb Monkey's texting away with our Thumbs  


PadawanBater said:


> X's 2.
> 
> Makes me think of a good question...
> 
> If everyone became atheist, would that mean God failed? Isn't it impossible for an omnipotent being to fail at anything?


 
Question #1 - NO, 

Question #2 - YeS..,

Made me Think of A Good Question or 2, or 3...

If Everyone Became Atheist, What's Next? When We are without god/s.. Or is it impossible to phantom this Now? 

The only significant present day/time observances of accelerating Evolution has been with the Mind over the last 4-5 Centuries... The Way we think has Significantly Observably Evolved, or Does the Mind extend onlY as Far as the Science has permitted it to Go?

So my other Questions are, 

Will being god-less allow For the Pinnacle of Man to be Reached noW if it is Free of An OmnipresenT God HoaX, or is it Attainable Now aS Well, HoAx included?

Or, We are Unable to break Free because a Grand Hoax renders us Powerless to the Scheme of it All? if the Latter is True, I Agree that Religion Must Go Down NOW  my Way has already Failed...

these are just some things I have pondered...

edit: clarify..14/15th century - present day


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## NOWitall (Sep 29, 2009)

hahahahahaha

evolution.

you think were still evolving, well your half right.

were are evolving into 2 seperate species.

1. muscly\low IQ\big penis\big boobs\good complexion. in short, the beautiful people

2. frail\highIQ\average\average\no complexion\bad vision. in short, teachers,doctors,scientists,etc

we stopped using survival of the fittest when alcohol became cheap and plentiful.
now its survival of whoever is still sober enough to fuck.
were breeding in non survival traits, take a penut allergy, a few hundred years ago if you had that you died when you were 5 and everybody thought demons did it. now its treatable, and inheritable.

same for bad vision,asthma, and any number of other things.

and no im not preaching eugenics.

im just saying we continue to evolve, from a species point of view many of the human subspecies are continueing to evolve in somewhat dissimilar ways, (like those islanders that now have the ability to contract their pupils at will, providing clearer vision underwater. where the majority of their food and trade goods come from)

micro evolution as opposed to macro evolution.

and the fact that we have externalized most of what would normaly be taken care of by evolution, ie devices that condition or heat air, clothing, microwaves(fake fire), fast food, u get the idea


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## PadawanBater (Sep 29, 2009)

You ever see Idiocracy?


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## Brazko (Sep 29, 2009)

NOWitall said:


> hahahahahaha
> 
> evolution.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I missed the Joke...but of course we are still Evolving, No other which way about it, or half way of looking at it.. With that said, I agree with very much of all of what you have said especially the highlighted portion.... 

I don't believe that we will Change form or anything like that, less bearing that Our enviroment went under some vast changes, in which we were still able to inhabit the planet, but stressed conditions may cause noticeable changes over time, similar to how our Eyelashes were thicker and Heavier and Served a purpose of protecting our Eyes from Harsh WEather, now they are Simply there for Fashion...

The (2) individual categories you have put forth I know, or atleast think they were half heartedly sarcastic jokes, but also a honest General depiction of what our species have evolved to...

and I don't promote eugenics either, but I feel that Nature has a way of fulfilling it's own course......

Like I said, I believe the Mind is the most Noticeable trait of evolution in the way we think and Approach life, Some may feel science opens their thinking up to a broader spectrum of thought, however, I feel and have only witnessed since time of Man began of how our thinking/mind has opened us up to the World around us to probe it differently that leads to new understandings.... & knowledge.. Which later becomes idenfified as Science/Religion..

Anyhow, I believe you are saying the same thing , and that is Yes we are evolving....

And that was some Awesome DYK information as well, Thanks




PadawanBater said:


> You ever see Idiocracy?


I've caught bits and pieces of it, I recorded it to my DVR. What I've seen so Far has been Hilarious, I'll have to sit down and check the Whole movie out Soon..


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## smoker toker (Sep 30, 2009)

There's a major flaw in the original post, and not to sound cocky but a flaw that I'm assuming everyone has overlooked ... Well actually a couple of things.. For one.. as stated, everything that has been suggested to humankind's origins are THEORY and theory alone, no proof whatsoever, just an educated guess by the knowledge we currently possess, and sorry to say but humans haven't even scratched the surfice of knowing everything.

Second, it IS possible for something to simple exist, such as gravity. Did you know that if you get a bowling ball out in the middle of space, and then put a golf ball out there with it, that the golf ball would begin revolving around the bowling ball? EVERYTHING has a natural gravity, but where did gravity come from? It just kind of exists, so it makes sense that the universe, space, can just kind of exist.

The main flaw in the original post though... is time.



andersbranderud said:


> Reversing an accelerating expansion to see back in time produces a universe that shrinks at a decelerating rate as one goes back in time to its origin. Follow this process to its ultimate and the rate of shrinkage reduces to converge with timespace where both are zero. That is, both shrinkage and timespace stop at timespace=0. Thus, timespace has a beginning.


 
Now what I say next might be a hard concept to grasp, and I apologize if I don't exlain it well but... time doesn't acutlally exist. Time is merely a concept that humankind created as a way to describe the length of a process. People grow old, flowers wilt and iron rusts; all of which are the result of deteriorating chemical reactions which occur naturally in the universe.

Infinity is a perfect example. Infinity, eternaty, forever, neverending. Same concept with time, and that's the flaw with this theory. For every equal, there IS an opposite, so the concept of time neverending works in reverse, so there is no beginning either, like gravity, it just simple there. If that makes any sense?

Why do we spend eternaty in heaven? Or eternaty in hell? Because once we're there, we don't die, we are there for eteranaty because time ceases to exist.

Again, sorry if that isn't explained well but I'm afraid I did the best I could. But the bottom line is that time doesn't exist, making it neverending, and also neverbeginning.

 Smoker Toker


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## Dan Halen (Sep 30, 2009)

I just gotta say, what ever you may believe is your own business, and, (provided your not harming anyone in any way, i.e. murder, robbery, ect.), nobody has the right to tell you to believe anything different. That's your decicision.

Other than that, what the hell? I mean why do so many people get hung up on this? Whatever religion you may be, or if your an atheist, your only accountable for yourself, so why worry about what everyone else is doing? Why get all pissed off and fight with people, and create more missery and suffering not only in your life, but theirs, when it has absolutely nothing to do with you? Am I the only one who thinks that's a no brainer?


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## Brazko (Sep 30, 2009)

smoker toker said:


> Second, it IS possible for something to simple exist, such as gravity. Did you know that if you get a bowling ball out in the middle of space, and then put a golf ball out there with it, that the golf ball would begin revolving around the bowling ball? EVERYTHING has a natural gravity, but where did gravity come from? It just kind of exists, so it makes sense that the universe, space, can just kind of exist.


WoW, I just had an Enlightening Thought after thinking Over this Information and just from the other day watching a Documentary on Blackholes....

In short, it was presumed that the outer reaching stars of an Galaxy was not effected by the Gravity of a Blackhole, but after some recent studies and calculations, they found a distinct pattern with the OuterStars that did imply that they were effected by the Super Massive Black Hole, which are suspected to be at the Center of every Galaxy, including Ours....

So, not so Short, huh , So, if everything is effected by the Super Massive Black Holes all the Way to the Outer Reaches of that BlackHoles Galaxy, Is it possible that Gravity has it's Existence and Origination from BlackHoles...., 

LIke the Golf Ball, Bowling Ball example... which is, a simple example of the General Relativity, What if the existence of Gravity effect on All objects, Originates and Exist as A secondary proponent of The Gravitational Pull of The Super Massive Black Hole.., Has this ever been thought of, or calculated? Or even possible according to Laws of Physics? And since we presume the Law of Conservation of energy , Are Black Holes in actuality what Dark Matter/Dark Energy really is. The End Cycle of consumption of all Matter and Energy back into it's natural State, Dark Matter/Dark Energy 

Hmm, it was Just A Thought,


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## PadawanBater (Sep 30, 2009)

Brazko said:


> WoW, I just had an Enlightening Thought after thinking Over this Information and just from the other day watching a Documentary on Blackholes....
> 
> In short, it was presumed that the outer reaching stars of an Galaxy was not effected by the Gravity of a Blackhole, but after some recent studies and calculations, they found a distinct pattern with the OuterStars that did imply that they were effected by the Super Massive Black Hole, which are suspected to be at the Center of every Galaxy, including Ours....
> 
> ...


 
From what I understand, dark matter/dark energy is the force opposite gravity. It's what's responsible for our exponential rate of expansion. Gravity pulls stuff together, dark matter/dark energy pushes stuff apart. They've also done calculations on the weight and volume of galaxies and discovered that there is much more mass inside average galaxies than can be accounted for through standard measurements. They figure there must be a lot more dark matter/dark energy than we can currently measure.


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## Brazko (Sep 30, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> From what I understand, dark matter/dark energy is the force opposite gravity. It's what's responsible for our exponential rate of expansion. Gravity pulls stuff together, dark matter/dark energy pushes stuff apart. They've also done calculations on the weight and volume of galaxies and discovered that there is much more mass inside average galaxies than can be accounted for through standard measurements. They figure there must be a lot more dark matter/dark energy than we can currently measure.


Well, I think we should discriminate the two totally in terms together.. DArk Energy is responsible for expansion, While Dark Matter constitues the gravitational core of Our galaxy, Right?

hmm, this is another subject I've always been fascinated with, guess I need to delve a little deeper with it too..


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## Brazko (Sep 30, 2009)

Another thought on why they are unable to account for the abundant amount of Dark matter that doesn't equate to the Galaxies matter, is because calculations for the mass x energy that went into making the Blackhole is unknown.. It only makes sense for the Core to have a Greater density of Mass meaning Dark Matter compared to the orbiting Mass/Dark Matter.. General Relativity, Right?

hmmm...., Just A Thought,


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## sunshine17542 (Sep 30, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Another thought on why they are unable to account for the abundant amount of Dark matter that doesn't equate to the Galaxies matter, is because calculations for the mass x energy that went into making the Blackhole is unknown.. It only makes sense for the Core to have a Greater density of Mass meaning Dark Matter compared to the orbiting Mass/Dark Matter.. General Relativity, Right?
> 
> hmmm...., Just A Thought,


Did you watch the thing on the history channel too? The Universe? The one I watched was about dark matter and dark energy.


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## Brazko (Sep 30, 2009)

sunshine17542 said:


> Did you watch the thing on the history channel too? The Universe? The one I watched was about dark matter and dark energy.


 
Yes, Probably So, I've seen Tons of them, on Dark matter/Energy, BlackHoles, Galaxies, Stars, Planets, etc.. et..., from the time I had little priority interest in the Stuff, until it became an elected all consuming motivated interest. People, baffle me sometimes @ how they relate to the Great Minds of Old'.. like they are some Fairytale God's themselves, that had access to some Vast exclusive Knowledge only beholden to them. They are your Equals, they just decided to tap that Vast knowledge, that is totally inclusive to all things, The Mind..

and again to answer, Yes, more than likely, I have viewed the Same program, probably several times already, I get So excited when I see an Updated Documentary that may contain new shared evidence or theories, that I get to weigh against my Own probing..., It always seemingly results in the same principle findings, I'm always happy when Science finally catches Up , 

Now I want to get some in depth literature on String Theory, Dark Matter/Energy, & Quantum Physics..., and see what I'm able to learn, that my Mind has not already be able to phantom,


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## CrackerJax (Sep 30, 2009)

Braz... ahead of science... uh huh.


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## PadawanBater (Sep 30, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Braz... ahead of science... uh huh.


 
It's pretty rare when it happens, it's happened to me like two or three times in my entire life, maybe that's not what Braz is talking about, but I'll share anyway.

When you have the same thoughts those great men before you had without ever having known of them in the first place. 

I remember thinking about orbits and revolutions of planets before I knew anything about school, education or science.

I also remember thinking about philosophies similar to Nietzsche before I ever learned anything about him.

Same thing with black holes and Hawking..

Arguably the most profound feeling I've ever experienced...


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## CrackerJax (Sep 30, 2009)

Yes, this has happened to me too, but realize that we have all sorts of "fill ins" of info the original scientists did not.


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## smoker toker (Sep 30, 2009)

Brazko said:


> ]
> 
> So, not so Short, huh , So, if everything is effected by the Super Massive Black Holes all the Way to the Outer Reaches of that BlackHoles Galaxy, Is it possible that Gravity has it's Existence and Origination from BlackHoles....,
> 
> ...


 
mmmm I'm not so sure, Black Holes are only created when a massive star collapses, gravity is present then because it's the same concept as a sinking ship, everything around it gets sucked in and drug down with it........ I don't see how gravity could originate from black holes, simply because of the fact that ANYTHING that has mass, has their own gravity... I feather has gravity but it wasn't a black hole which caused it.


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## Brazko (Oct 1, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> It's pretty rare when it happens, it's happened to me like two or three times in my entire life, maybe that's not what Braz is talking about, but I'll share anyway.
> 
> When you have the same thoughts those great men before you had without ever having known of them in the first place.
> 
> ...


Well, I kinda mean in the sense of Both terms, but Yeah, more predominately in the terms of the examples you have given.. 



smoker toker said:


> mmmm I'm not so sure, Black Holes are only created when a massive star collapses, gravity is present then because it's the same concept as a sinking ship, everything around it gets sucked in and drug down with it........ I don't see how gravity could originate from black holes, simply because of the fact that ANYTHING that has mass, has their own gravity... I feather has gravity but it wasn't a black hole which caused it.


Maybe I Am confused , So, we have Stars in Space that Orbit independently outside of a Galaxiy? I thought all stars were part of a Galaxy System? I had presumed this and thought that everything rotated around the supermassive black hole that exist at the center of the Galaxy?

But with that said, I concluded that the gravity is secondary because it is the effect of the super massive black hole gravity. The rest of the physics remain the same simply because everything has a mass, Theory of Relativity.... You don't have to be in Outer Space, to observe General Relativity,

I think I need to check it over later, I'm confused now.. 9am...,

Sorry, that Post was meant to go through @ 9, guess I was in a Rush..

Anyhow, i Believe I'm right (I think) that all Stars are part of a Galactic System....

and I blieve Black Holes are part of Galaxies

I should also explain with more clarity, 

and look over the Theory of Relativity, I think it may be better to explain further on why I feel that Gravity originates @ the Core of the Galaxy, it has the Greatest Mass of All, righT? Think I'm starting to confuse myself, again


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## AmericanBuddha (Oct 1, 2009)

leeny said:


> who created the intelligent creator? and I'm not trying to be a prick but I'm sure there is some theory on that and would just like to hear it...


That's a good question. I have a theory on that....it's like....opening one door at a time. Maybe, us, as imperfect beings don't have the ability to understand the complexity of a conciousness so great that could create the creater. We don't even understand fully the creater herself. So perhaps that knowlege may come with diffrent levels of conciousness reached. Or maybe us as individuals represent diffrent aspects of the creators subconcious, thus our interactions with one another represent the creators attempt to understand her purpose and what great being in fact created her, if any at all. And if that's the case, maybe we created the creator and the creator created us....simotanusly. Kind of like a chicken or the egg thing...whose to say what came first.


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## morgentaler (Oct 1, 2009)

Gravity is a force inherent in all objects with mass.
A black hole is simply (simply is in understatement  ) an object with enough mass that most light does not escape.
Some types of radiation do escape, and while not visible to the human eye, they can be considered light at the extreme end of the wavelength scale.

Black holes are fascinating objects, but they do not impart gravity upon other objects.


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## PadawanBater (Oct 1, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Well, I kinda mean in the sense of Both terms, but Yeah, more predominately in the terms of the examples you have given..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right about stars. All stars are part of a larger galaxy. Though I have heard of stars that get thrown off into deep space via a gravitational interference, which makes perfect sense given we've observed stars orbiting other stars. Stars are also self sustaining, so there's no reason they couldn't survive out in deep space. Come to think of it, there are probably actually quite a bit of these kinds of stars. Speeds range into the millions of miles per hour going through space.

Black holes are stars I believe 3 times larger than our sun that run through their life cycle, use all the hydrogen and helium then expand the outer layers and the core contracts into a black hole. They've indirectly observed them too I'm pretty sure. 

Then theres super massive black holes. Those are the ones at the center of each galaxy. Really don't know much about them, except their unimaginably huge and nothing escapes. Too bad we can't send probes that far yet...


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## CrackerJax (Oct 1, 2009)

Yes, there are stars that are not part of Galaxies.... but they used to be. They were thrown free by variables of gravitational pulls, and pushes. Most certainly any life orbiting the star would have been annihilated upon exit, or long before that.

Black holes. Yes, they are at the center of galaxies, BUT, there are "roaming" massive black holes which can appear from seemingly nowhere and swallow a star system. Nature's little robot vacuum system. 

One could appear near us..... surprise!  There would be no escape.


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## morgentaler (Oct 1, 2009)

Sounds like a good SyFy "Feature of the Week" :

The Intergalactic Roomba of Death


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## Brazko (Oct 2, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> Then theres super massive black holes. Those are the ones at the center of each galaxy. Really don't know much about them, except their unimaginably huge and nothing escapes. Too bad we can't send probes that far yet...


Right, this is the information that I think would be needed to calculate the exponential effect that it's gravitational pull has on it's surrounding Mass, and would display a significant pattern according to the Mass of the Object..

I think I'm losing some of you, when I say gravity originates @ black holes... I'm speaking specifically about the Super Massive Black Holes @ the Center.. Gravity then acts like a surge of Current emanating from the Galaxies Core acting upon the rest of the surrounding objects of Mass.. Think of Gravity like a String, now this string Originates @ the Core of the Galaxy, now imagine this string with Beads, When you tug on the first bead, the rest follow, Having a good understanding of the Theory of Relativity, also understanding Newton's Theory of Gravitation with concern for interactions of objects of lesser Mass, will probably help point in the direction I'm aiming...and not that you all may not have a good grasp of it now...

Also, I know Stars sometimes operate in clusters, but they are still part of an Galaxy, I believe... and the Stars that get flung off I believe they are still part of the Galaxy or atleast in another Galaxies Gravity field which may have been the Fluctuations noticed causing the star to fling Off, we are just unable to calculate properly...

What I'm saying is simply this, if The Universe is estimated to being 75% Dark Energy responsible for Expansion, 22% is Dark Matter, which is primarily the Cores of All Galaxies, which acts as a force of Gravity, on the other 3% of ordinary Matter..., 

We don't have the calculated #'s to verify it, but it seems that the Core of the Galaxy is responsible for the effects of Gravity enacted on the Surrounding Mass in it's Galaxy... 

and yes we have mini vacuums working inside the Larger Vacuum, everybody needs a little help 

anyhow, just A thought, I'm simply glad to Say I have a fresh Idea that if not actual fact, if still very plausible... I think ,


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## Brazko (Oct 2, 2009)

just a little FyI, did you know that our Galaxy could collide with another Galaxy, and we wouldn't even know it, although we would be able to observe it.... Life would continue on as Normal, as the Turbulent cores of Each respectively did a dance of Chaos while we lounged on the outskirts, hopefully not getting drawn too close to the Mayhem....

Ok, I'm OuT


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## CrackerJax (Oct 2, 2009)

*Do all stars belong to galaxies? 

* Not all of them. Galaxies collide, and this process strips stars from their parent galaxy and hurls them into intergalactic space. The Hubble Space Telescope has even detected a few hundred very bright, orphan, stars between the galaxies in the Virgo Cluster if I am not mistaken. Although stars most certainly form inside some collection of matter such as a galaxy, their history after formation can include being ejected from a galaxy. Here's a news release from the Hubble Space Telescope about it: 
_*NASA's Hubble Space Telescope has found a long sought population of "stellar outcasts" -- stars tossed out of their home galaxy into the dark emptiness of intergalactic space. This is the first time stars have been found more than 300,000 light-years (three Milky Way diameters) from the nearest big galaxy. *
The isolated stars dwell in the Virgo cluster of galaxies, about 60 million light-years away. The results suggest this population of "lone stars" accounts for 10 percent of the Virgo cluster's mass, or 1 trillion Sun-like stars adrift among the 2,500 galaxies in Virgo. "Our discovery provides a new tool for studying clusters of galaxies," says Harry Ferguson of Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore, Maryland. 
The distribution of the stars in Virgo could help astronomers probe the distribution of dark matter in the cluster. (Dark matter is an unknown type of matter that accounts for most of the mass of the universe.) Another possible spinoff is that the stars detected, which are the brightest members of the red giant class, may serve as "standard candles" (stars that can be used for calibrating distances), providing an independent method for measuring cosmological distances to Virgo. Such measurements are key to estimating the expansion rate and age of the universe. 
These results are being presented at the 189th Meeting of the American Astronomical Society in Toronto, Canada, by Ferguson and co-investigators Nial Tanvir (University of Cambridge, Cambridge, United Kingdom) and Ted von Hippel (University of Wisconsin). 
Intergalactic stars have been predicted to exist as a result of galaxy interactions and mergers early in a galaxy cluster's history. These close encounters should have ripped stars out of their home galaxies and tossed them into intergalactic space, where they drift free of the gravitational influence of any single galaxy. It was predicted that the stars should appear as a diffuse excess of light in Virgo, and there have previously been observations from ground-based telescopes that report just such an excess. "However, there are large uncertainties in the ground-based measurements, and it is not clear whether the diffuse light originates from galaxies too faint to detect individually or from a more uniform sea of stars," says Ferguson. The accidental discovery in 1996 of planetary nebulae (stellar remnants) in Virgo, which are far removed from any galaxy, offered additional evidence that such an intergalactic population really exists. 
The Hubble astronomers found the background stars by taking an exposure of a "blank" portion of sky in Virgo. The position is in the vicinity of the giant elliptical galaxy M87 in the center of Virgo, but far enough from the galaxy for the stars not to be members of M87's halo. The Virgo field was compared to the Hubble Deep Field (HDF) image which represents a region of sky devoid of any nearby galaxy cluster. With the HDF serving as the control, the astronomers counted approximately 600 sources down to 27.8 magnitude. 
The stars are bright red giants -- stars late in their lives. Presumably there are many fainter stars -- perhaps as many as 10 million -- in the same field but are below Hubble's sensitivity. "*These stars are truly intergalactic because they are so isolated their motion is probably governed by the gravitational field of the cluster as a whole, rather than the pull of any one galaxy," says Ferguson.* The Space Telescope Imaging Spectrograph (STIS) and Near Infrared Camera and Multi-Object Spectrometer (NICMOS) planned for installation on Hubble this February will be used to help understand the history of the stellar outcasts. Comparison of heavy element abundances in the "loner" stars and in the Virgo galaxies should help to uncover whether the stars wandered off from the outskirts of galaxies that still exist, are the remnants of galaxies that were completely disrupted, or were somehow formed in the dark reaches of intergalactic space. 
_ Copyright 1997 Dr. Sten Odenwald

Chaos wins over order.... again.
​


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## Mr. Good (Oct 2, 2009)

I wanted to chime in on this. I think about this stuff a lot and I have some pretty interesting points to make...imo.

First I just want to say that there is a concious creator...that being said I don't believe in God, Jesus, Buddha or the sorts...

I do believe in an intelligent concious creator but he's not the dude your all thinking of.

It is so easy for us all to let Jesus die for our sins huh? Why can't we do shit for ourselves? To easy to let Jesus do it for us. No one can live your life for you but YOU folks. 

Does it make ANY SENSE for a GOD to care so much about what I am doing in my closet or whatever? And if so does it make any sense furthermore that this same INTELLIGENT GOD would condemn me to a lifetime of eternal suffering because of something I did during my life? Seems kind of harsh don't you think? And to what end?

And if there is a mathematical order to the universe then it would seem very probable that there is no WRONG and RIGHT in the universe...just differance...left to right, up to down, black to white and wrong and right I think is one too...not good or evil. 

Each person who lives must experience the shit they go through in life THEMSELVES...Jesus can't and won't...nor will his Dad. Mathematically and evolutionarily speaking, I think it makes sense that we have to experience ALL life has to offer...so we can learn as a spieces...as a complete singluar entity with mother earth. EXPERIENCES I am referring to folks is the bad shit we can't understand why it happens...murders, kidnappings and the like. Necessary "evils" (not really evil just bad) so that we as an entire species learn which behaviors are good and bad...like it or not daily murders are our constant reminder as a spieces that humans can and will kill other humans..even though those same humans are capable of tender love too. No I am not a murderer or a raper BUT that is only because it is not in my DNA. Yeah that's right...we are all just being used by Deoxyribonucleic Acid to further ITSELF. 

I remember hearing a story a while ago about a supposed claim that to even miracle people to start a population one would STATISTICALLY start with at least 8 Adam and Eves...

A trait that can be passed genetically from parent to offspring is alcoholism. People didn't ALWAYS believe that but I think we can all agree that everyone today pretty much accepts that right? Why can't you accept the fact that if your Dad was a cheating wife beater so will you...? If he smokes weed so will you? Maybe I don't have enough people cringing yet...but don't ignore the molesters...the murderers...the "everything bad that you can imagine"!

People are not ready to make that leap...Hope I don't offend but I got my own demons too so...

But if you think about it it makes sense (I hate those double "its"). We murdered scientists and scholars for centuries when their knowledge from learning differed with their paper crutch. This served a purpose. At the time it kept an unpopular view away from too many people. They do that same shit today folks. When you imprison a raper you take away his chances to procreate and pass along the DNA sequence which thinks that raping is an option. This happens with all undesirables and in one way or another there has always been punishment of the most severe kind for the worse crimes...not so much an eye for an eye but a self cleansing way for our species as a whole to cleanse itself...

The key word here I think is unity. This whole planet is one mind, one singular conciousness. As an entire planet every of us is interconnected. We rally together so strangley when we need to don't we? is it so hard to think that the pack instinct can transcend to a much larger scales...the planet? This planet and every single thing on it is one..we are not seperate from her..we are of her. God this weed is good.


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## Mr. Good (Oct 2, 2009)

And not only that...

but going back to the universe thing...

What if the Mayans had it right? Scientists today are even baffled how their astrological calenders were more accurate than those of today. 

Were ancient Mayans visited by aliens who then passed along their knowledge of the solar system to them? Maybe even interbred...some crazy alien/mayan love orgy...hot tangled interstellar forbidden love...maybe even a little floppy. Why did they try to change the physical appearances of their babies heads with boards strapped to them to make them elongated and flat! It's all true. These central american people had way too much knowledge and way ahead of their time. 

The Mayan calender ends on December 21st 2012. This date correlates correctly with what scientists say is a point when our poles actually reverse to correct a wobble. This is a cycle that happens every 26000 years...just so happens that is how long the Mayan calender lasts and if I am not mistaken isn't the oldest known tribe on earth the _abhorigines_...sorry aussies...which is about 26000 years old?

This IS good stuff


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## CrackerJax (Oct 2, 2009)

Actually there is no evidence at all that the Mayans thought everything was going to end at 12/20/2012. It is far more probable that the calendar merely resets and continues.


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## Mr. Good (Oct 2, 2009)

Yeah I said it right in the FOIST place....nyuh nyuh nyuh...


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## Sure Shot (Oct 2, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Actually there is no evidence at all that the Mayans thought everything was going to end at 12/20/2012. It is far more probable that the calendar merely resets and continues.


Exactly.
And that is mind boggling precision.


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## Mauihund (Oct 2, 2009)

Mindmelted said:


> We like fairy tales to make us feel good




"Fucking Tinkerbell! If she was loving, then why do bad things happen to good ppl?"

No one gets angry at Tinkerbell. Maybe that's because no one believes she REALLY exists? But, you seem to show contempt freely for God. Hmmm?


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## CrackerJax (Oct 2, 2009)

Bad things happen to good ppl, the same way good things happen to bad ppl. Randomness is the model of life. You can prepare and try to fend off the randomness via "religion", but in the end, chaos reigns supreme, as it should be.

Chaos got us here, and it will continue to serve us until we all disappear into oblivion.

In the end, all things are doomed to extinction, it's just a matter of when, not if.


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## ReggaeGanja (Oct 2, 2009)

dang people are pricks to say godss not our creator.. he made cannabis for US and you guys still think hes fakke


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## Brazko (Oct 2, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> *Do all stars belong to galaxies? *
> 
> Not all of them. Galaxies collide, and this process strips stars from their parent galaxy and hurls them into intergalactic space. The Hubble Space Telescope has even detected a few hundred very bright, orphan, stars between the galaxies in the Virgo Cluster if I am not mistaken. Although stars most certainly form inside some collection of matter such as a galaxy, their history after formation can include being ejected from a galaxy. Here's a news release from the Hubble Space Telescope about it:
> _*NASA's Hubble Space Telescope has found a long sought population of "stellar outcasts" -- stars tossed out of their home galaxy into the dark emptiness of intergalactic space. This is the first time stars have been found more than 300,000 light-years (three Milky Way diameters) from the nearest big galaxy. *_
> ...


, Once again, you have just proved me absolutely RiGht, but certainely not Wrong.. 

First off, the bold print was a big helper, thanks ...

Secondly, he's talking about in General that there are Clusters of stars in intergalactic space and how they PRobaBly got there, whose Combined Mass gives it dominance of it's position where it drifts freely between Galaxies that have little effect on it solely due to it's present position in Intergalactic Space..


*****This Statement is True***** it's not contradicting anything I said, 


but you are trying to make it a statement of bias, when he is stating a simple truth, you try to Sway it in YOur Opinion!!! 

The stars are interGalactic because there is NO SinGle Galaxy Gravity's field that plays a Significant role in it's position, so that is where it sits, in a Cluster, 

" truly intergalactic because they are so isolated their motion is probably governed by the gravitational field of the cluster as a whole, rather than the pull of any One galaxy," says Ferguson

So this just shows me why and How we have intErgalactic Stars.., and yet it's Still part of A Galaxy Cluster..., 

This was good information, but it does nothing to prove against the theory I put forth, it's just another example of Relativity..

If you were trying to prove my theory wrong this does nothing to contradict it.....

ONly now I am Wise to the Fact of How Stars, better yet Cluster's of Stars come to Exist in intergalactic Space, within Galaxy Clusters, the Virgo Cluster, 


*Galaxy groups and clusters* are the largest known gravitationally bound objects to have arisen thus far in the process of cosmic structure formation

and they are placed in Super Clusters


Back to my point of Theory, are they NOt Looking for the Distribution of Dark Matter, furthermore I'm not trying to be Right, but you have put nothing forth to discredit what I have stated, I still could be Wrong..., However, Good Information tho',

Chaos only Rules N your Head, a Nice Place for It ​


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## Mauihund (Oct 2, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Bad things happen to good ppl, the same way good things happen to bad ppl. Randomness is the model of life. You can prepare and try to fend off the randomness via "religion", but in the end, chaos reigns supreme, as it should be.


Religion, like science, is just humanities way of trying to make sense of our experience here on earth. Anything can be used as a way of protecting us from the harsh realities of living. Denial works for a lot of ppl, and no religious belief is necessary. 

If chaos was the true ruler, as you suggest, how is you are able to form your thoughts into coherent sentences? Because at some point you were faced with a challenge and learned from it. Orderly thoughts do not come from chaos unless the chaos was concord....in your mind anyway. We all die, but that too is a part of life's order.



CrackerJax said:


> Chaos got us here, and it will continue to serve us until we all disappear into oblivion. In the end, all things are doomed to extinction, it's just a matter of when, not if.




Dude, I want to party with you!

Thats just a great statement. A bit nihilistic, but still cool.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 2, 2009)

Brazko said:


> , Once again, you have just proved me absolutely RiGht, but certainely not Wrong..
> 
> First off, the bold print was a big helper, thanks ...
> 
> ...



Nonsense.... complete nonsense.

*You said:* So this just shows me why and How we have intErgalactic Stars.., and yet it's Still part of A Galaxy Cluster..., 

No, it does not mean that at all. They are *independent* of galactic forces.
It's right there if you pick up your reading comprehension a bit.


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## DEVO (Oct 2, 2009)

the only thing you need to believe in is ourselves and each other as its all we have until a so called god makes himself be know to all of us blind faith is something many have being force feed since the cradle and it takes 
mental evolution to truly believe that if there is/isn't a god then you will be spared because you will have lived your life the same as if you were a follower i myself would be or act no different either as a believer or as a thinker 
and if im wrong and there is a god who decides to punish me not for how i lived my life and treated/helped my brothers and sisters then i would want nothing to do with this god.
my point is what difference does it make what we do or don't believe in as long we remain the same, true to ourselves and others if god is all knowing and wise then it should be recognized if not then to oblivion with him/her/it.

My quest in life is evolution of the body mind and of the people of our world ...our only world 
if we can free ourselves of dough and questions to begin the flow of answers without need the be told we are right or wrong we will have started to take the first steps to freeing our pre-programed minds 
dont seek what is in the afterlife seek the here and now and the death will only become a stage of life like the turning of age (another birthday)


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## Brazko (Oct 2, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Nonsense.... complete nonsense.
> 
> *You said:* So this just shows me why and How we have intErgalactic Stars.., and yet it's Still part of A Galaxy Cluster...,
> 
> ...


, Yes, C.J. @ the Present Time/Space they are IN, but they are saying the Gravitational Boundary in which they are held together, has a Greater influence over the nature of it's Orbit between Galaxies, than any Singular Galaxy, That is why they Say TrUeLy can Say...., Because It's a Finite Stage.. At One Time they were part of an Galaxy Right? And will Still Succumb to the Gravity of 1 Galaxy, that is amongst other Glaxaies in that cluster, that is apart of a Cluster of Clusters of Galaxies called Super Clusters, Held together by Gravitational forces, which lie hidden in Dark Matter, which is Located Primarily at the Core of All Galaxies..mmmmmmKay, Right!!!, Everything INto Oblivion...Just A Matter of When, NOt If.... Remember, mmmmkay 

What you aRe stating doesn't hold to the arguement you are making.. They are being Observed Presently Acting in A Independent Nature, that is All.. Plain and Simple

Come On Man!!! I'm not going to hold your hand through this, Good money went into thaT University Level Education you got, 

Your Lucky, Logic tells me that is impossible for someone to recieve such Higher Learning and still be incompetent, While my instincts says, Well, We'll keep that one to Ourselves....., 

Again, I'm not stating A proven Fact, but A theory, and You have put nothing forth contradictive to it.. While the Scientific evidence makes My suggested theory, very, very, Plausbile.. Science just haven't allowed Science to catch up, It's not trying 2 be Right or Wrong c.J. , It's Science, the Evidence is There, Look at it,

No, don't talk to me, Look At It , then Talk..., then Look some More , 

I think somebody is feeling Pretty thirsty..


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## Mauihund (Oct 2, 2009)

Brazko said:


> , Yes, C.J. @ the Present Time/Space they are IN, but they are saying the Gravitational Boundary in which they are held together, has a Greater influence over the nature of it's Orbit between Galaxies, than any Singular Galaxy, That is why they Say TrUeLy can Say...., Because It's a Finite Stage.. At One Time they were part of an Galaxy Right? And will Still Succumb to the Gravity of 1 Galaxy, that is amongst other Glaxaies in that cluster, that is apart of a Cluster of Clusters of Galaxies called Super Clusters, Held together by Gravitational forces, which lie hidden in Dark Matter, which is Located Primarily at the Core of All Galaxies..mmmmmmKay, Right!!!, Everything INto Oblivion...Just A Matter of When, NOt If.... Remember, mmmmkay
> 
> What you aRe stating doesn't hold to the arguement you are making.. They are being Observed Presently Acting in A Independent Nature, that is All.. Plain and Simple
> 
> ...



Yeah, I'm finding logic is optional with his thinking. Wait till he quotes something you never said, then argues your wrong point.


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## Brazko (Oct 2, 2009)

Mauihund said:


> Yeah, I'm finding logic is optional with his thinking. Wait till he quotes something you never said, then argues your wrong point.


BewAre of His jeDi Mind tricks, you Must.., hehehehehe


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## Brazko (Oct 2, 2009)

It may appear sOmber, but I'm really glad he has pressed so hard, even tho' it's in error.... It has given me another Enlightening thought as Well, about String Theory and the Nature of the Two Possible 5th Dimensions, and I have yet to pick Up a Book yet, Thanks Cj...

I'll keep this one to Myself tho', don't want to push to much further Ahead, 

Handicap Rulez


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## smoker toker (Oct 3, 2009)

Mr. Good said:


> And not only that...
> 
> The Mayan calender ends on December 21st 2012. This date correlates correctly with what scientists say is a point when our poles actually reverse to correct a wobble. This is a cycle that happens every 26000 years...just so happens that is how long the Mayan calender lasts and if I am not mistaken isn't the oldest known tribe on earth the _abhorigines_...sorry aussies...which is about 26000 years old?


The only problem with the whole Mayan calender thing is... the Mayan's no longer exist.. lol.... it'd be like saying... for instance, if all humans on the planet died right now, and our farthest calender goes to say, year 2156, and the next intelligent speices found it and said "Well the last civilizaion's calender ended on 2156, so that's when we're all gonna die.

The calender stops because the tribe no longer exists to make more.. lol.. my personal thought anyways

 Smoker Toker


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## CrackerJax (Oct 3, 2009)

You guys are all over the place. You asked about black holes and if there were stars that lie outside galactic forces.

I provided you with the answers.

Now just because the only stars found so far have been "clusters", doesn't mean at all that there aren't millions of orphan stars out there unhinged from any galaxy.

The point was..... drum roll.... there are stars out there which are basically independent of galaxies. 

I never intertwined it with black matter. that's a different topic.

Mauihund.... chaos..... it doesn't prevent me from thinking or forming ideas. It was chaos which built my brain. 

Chaos is a positive, not a negative. Randomness rules the Universe...... no plan, unless the plan is chaos.

Evolution works on randomness and chaos. All things do (that we now of so far).

Or in other words, everything we see and sense tell us there is no plan, no orderly G*D shaping our destinies. 

It's just whatever happens, happens. There is no good/evil plans...... Nature just mixes it up without judgment and sees what flies, and what crawls, and what never gets out of the starting gate. 

No plan or goal to perfection..... it's actually not even in the recipe.


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## Brazko (Oct 3, 2009)

Cracker, I'm all over the place chasing you.. The theory I put forth was on gravity originating from super massive black holes that is primarily comprised of dark matter.. I've only had to reiterate because some people are unable to follow, that is completely just, this is a new idea/concept..which may not be new, just not released publicly because science cannot verify due to lack of sufficient data.

Once again, whether they are lone stars or clusters, its just the presently observed position they lie within relative distance between galaxies.. They are currently orbiting between many galaxies that influence its orbit but none play a more significant role then the combined gravity field they share..

Quick example, then Dad can't sit in the classroom with you any longer..

The relationship between the earth and Moon share a gravitational bond that is greater than the sun due to its present relationship, however that does not mean that the Suns gravitational force is actually less, obviously because we revolve around the sun.. The sun doesn't act upon the earth /moon individually but as a collective gravitational whole..due to its present relationship.. Ie Relativity

They are intergalactic because that is where we are presently observing their location light years away.. They can be called truly Intergalactic because they are presently situated in intergalactic space, where their gravitational bond as a whole plays a greater role in its current orbit, where as in a few light years..more or less, they will eventually be absorbed once again by another galaxy...


Whew!! I would get into free electrons and how they are released and absorbed once again by a atom.. But this happens faster than you can blink your eyes, but of course its on a wee bit tinier scale, and I don't want to confuse you any more by jumping around on topics..


----------



## morgentaler (Oct 3, 2009)

Most people don't think of this, but gravity is faster than the speed of light.

If the sun were to disappear from our solar system spontaneously, the effects on Earth would be felt instantly.

Yet we wouldn't see the light from the sun go out for 8 minutes.

(cue creepy music)


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 3, 2009)

> Once again, whether they are lone stars or clusters, its just the presently observed position they lie within relative distance between galaxies.. They are currently orbiting between many galaxies that influence its orbit but none play a more significant role then the combined gravity field they share..


*Incorrect!!* There are plenty of stars out there that are not being affected by *ANY* Galaxy. Please don't think you can slide on the science.

I am fully educated in the sciences. Far more than most. I can read things in context too.... you should try it sometime.


----------



## Sure Shot (Oct 3, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Most people don't think of this, but gravity is faster than the speed of light.
> 
> If the sun were to disappear from our solar system spontaneously, the effects on Earth would be felt instantly.
> 
> ...


Where did you get these calculations?


----------



## PadawanBater (Oct 3, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Most people don't think of this, but gravity is faster than the speed of light.
> 
> If the sun were to disappear from our solar system spontaneously, the effects on Earth would be felt instantly.
> 
> ...


 
Hypothetically, yes I think you would be right. But what you proposed isn't possible, atleast from what we've seen, as stars can't just dissappear. Can you come up with another scenario, that could happen, where this applies?


----------



## AmericanBuddha (Oct 3, 2009)

Well, isn't it true that the universe herself is expanding at a speed faster then light.


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 3, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> Hypothetically, yes I think you would be right. But what you proposed isn't possible, atleast from what we've seen, as stars can't just dissappear. Can you come up with another scenario, that could happen, where this applies?


You would feel the effects IMMEDIATELY. Light be damned..... if that gravitational force of the sun were to instantly be nullified, we would all be shot into deep space PRONTO. Like a slingshot.


----------



## klepto (Oct 3, 2009)

KaleoXxX said:


> anyone har the theory about how eating mushrooms developed monkeys into mankind? the ones who ate the hallucinogenic ones developed a consciousness and the ones who ate the regular ones stayed monkeys and the ones who ate the poisonous mushrooms died off, thinning the crowd


LMAO! gotta love shrooms!....and ACID!


----------



## Mauihund (Oct 3, 2009)

smoker toker said:


> The only problem with the whole Mayan calender thing is... the Mayan's no longer exist.. lol.... it'd be like saying... for instance, if all humans on the planet died right now, and our farthest calender goes to say, year 2156, and the next intelligent speices found it and said "Well the last civilizaion's calender ended on 2156, so that's when we're all gonna die.
> 
> The calender stops because the tribe no longer exists to make more.. lol.. my personal thought anyways
> 
> Smoker Toker



I like it. Practical, yet profound. Rep it up!


----------



## smoker toker (Oct 4, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> You would feel the effects IMMEDIATELY. Light be damned..... if that gravitational force of the sun were to instantly be nullified, we would all be shot into deep space PRONTO. Like a slingshot.


hmmm... Now this is just an educated guess of mine, but wouldn't we all DIE instantly if the sun were to just suddenly disappear?... True the light and heat takes 8 minutes to reach our planet, but it is the main source of our heat... Wouldn't we all kind of flash freeze in an instant if it disappeared, and then start revolving around Jupiter considering it is the next biggest mass closest to us?

 Smoker Toker


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 4, 2009)

No, since the heat and sun are still radiating outwards, we'd have 8 minutes..... *except* that we would instantly fly away from that last source of life. When your dead forever.... what's 8 minutes?


----------



## Brazko (Oct 5, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> When your dead forever.... what's 8 minutes?


 
A LifeTime..and I want every Fraction of A Fraction of A Second....,


----------



## Brazko (Oct 5, 2009)

Brazko said:


> , Yes, C.J. @ the Present Time/Space they are IN, but they are saying the Gravitational Boundary in which they are held together, has a Greater influence over the nature of it's Orbit between Galaxies, than any Singular Galaxy, That is why they Say TrUeLy can Say...., Because It's a Finite Stage.. At One Time they were part of an Galaxy Right? And will Still Succumb to the Gravity of 1 Galaxy, that is amongst other Glaxaies in that cluster, that is apart of a Cluster of Clusters of Galaxies called Super Clusters, Held together by Gravitational forces, which lie hidden in Dark Matter, which is Located Primarily at the Core of All Galaxies..mmmmmmKay, Right!!!, Everything INto Oblivion...Just A Matter of When, NOt If.... Remember, mmmmkay
> 
> What you aRe stating doesn't hold to the arguement you are making.. They are being Observed Presently Acting in A Independent Nature, that is All.. Plain and Simple
> 
> ...


, Somebody (-) Rep me for this Post, hmmmm, I'm Unable to Accuse b/C I don't have Scientific proof... but I can Assume I did get my Point Across.... Guess What?

Here's an Application for the Unknown Party...





ARE YOU SMARTER THAN A FIFTH GRADER?​ 
*ONLINE APPLICATION*
*GAME DESCRIPTION*​ 
&#8220;Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?&#8221; (the &#8220;Program&#8221 is produced by Are You Smarter
Productions, Inc. (&#8220;Producer&#8221. The Program is a television game show in which a contestant
has the opportunity to win cash and or prizes by answering questions taken from grade school
class materials.​ 
*APPLICATION RULES AND REQUIREMENTS:*
This application is for casting of a television game show whose purpose is entertainment.
The following eligibility requirements must be met in order to proceed with the application
process:
I. You must be 18 years of age or older and a legal resident of the 50 United States and/or
Washington D.C. All applicants who believe they meet this criteria, including persons with
disabilities, are welcome and encouraged to apply.
II. You must not now be a candidate for public office and must agree not to become one
until one (1) year after initial broadcast of all programs in which you appear, if selected
as a participant.
III. If selected for an interview, you must timely and fully complete an interview agreement
as well as a longer application that includes a Background Questionnaire Form and
authorization to obtain background information from third parties, among other
agreements. The Producers will provide the longer applications to potential interviewees.
IV. You must be willing to travel at your own expense to be interviewed in Los Angeles, CA.
Producer reserves the right to add additional locations at any time. All travel expenses
for the interview will be the applicant's sole expense. The Producer, it its sole discretion,
will determine who among the people interviewed will be placed into the pool of potential
contestants for the final selection process.
V. You must be willing to travel to Los Angeles, CA, for up to 8 days for the final selection
process. Preapproved
economy air travel (roundtrip to and from Los Angeles, CA, and
your home in the United States) and food & lodging to be provided and paid for by the
Producer. Selection of contestants shall be made by Producer based on such criteria as
the Producer shall determine in its sole discretion, which may be subjective. The
Producer is not obligated to select anyone, even if someone meets all eligibility
requirements and all criteria for selection. The Producer&#8217;s decisions regarding the
selection of contestants is final and not subject to challenge or appeal. The Producer is
not obligated to have any contestant appear on the Program and the Producer shall have
the right at all times and in its sole discretion to remove or replace any contestant for
any reason or no reason. Even if a contestant appears in the Program or any part
thereof, the Producer is not obligated to broadcast or otherwise use or exploit the
Program, contestant&#8217;s participation therein or any part thereof.
VI. Neither you nor any of your immediate family members or anyone living in your
household may be or have been within the past two (2) years employees, officers,
directors or agents of any of the following: (a) Are You Smarter Productions, Inc., Mark
Burnett Productions, Inc., Zoo Productions, the FOX Broadcasting Company ("FOX") or
any television station owned and operated by FOX&#894; (b) any person or entity involved in
the development, production, distribution or other exploitation of the "Program" or any
variation thereof&#894; (c) any sponsor of the Program or its advertising agency&#894; or (d) any
person or entity supplying services or prizes to the Program. In addition, Producer
reserves the right to render ineligible any person who Producer determines, in its sole
discretion, is sufficiently connected with the production, administration, judging, or
distribution of the Program such that his or her participation in the Program could create
the appearance of impropriety.
VII. Any person who has ever been a contestant on the Program is not eligible to participate
again, provided, however, Producer reserves the right to invite back any contestant(s)
for special or additional episodes of the Program.
VIII. Contestants will need to be available for at least one (1) full day for the production of the
Program, as well as any promotional appearances required by the Producers or FOX, and
be willing to travel to one or more locations designated by the Producer.​

​*Please read, sign and date the following statement:*​ 
I hereby acknowledge that (i) I have read, and I meet and agree to be bound by, the Program
eligibility requirements&#894; (ii) I have answered all questions asked in connection with my
application for the Program honestly and accurately&#894; (iii) if any of the information I provide in
connection with my application for the Program is found to be false, I understand that this will
be grounds for my dismissal from the Program player selection process and/or from the
Program, if selected&#894; (iv) even if I meet the eligibility requirements, the Producer has no
obligation to interview me and/or select me as a player&#894; (v) all decisions by the Producer
concerning the selection of the contestants is final and not subject to challenge or appeal&#894; (vi)
I agree to keep strictly confidential all information about the Program that I acquire during the
selection process and/or my participation in the Program&#894; (vii) my voice, actions, and likeness
may be recorded as a part of this application and selection process, and I understand that
Producer may, but is in no way obligated to, actually use such recordings within the Program&#894;
(viii) all decisions by Producer concerning selection of the contestants is final and not subject
to challenge or appeal&#894; and (ix) Producer has no obligation to return any materials submitted
by me as part of the selection process whether or not I am selected as a contestant, and
Producer may, but is in no way obligated to, use any such materials in and in connection with
the Program.​

Signature:________________________
Name:___________________________​Date:____________________________


It's All Good People, Let's Keep It Feng Shui,  It's already enough Negativity around HEre...

, the Streak is Over ,


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 5, 2009)

It wasn't me. I didn't even read that post. 

I've yet to give a neg rep to anyone, but I can't say I haven't been tempted... 

"Ignore" works so much better. 

I only "Ignore" for ppl who cannot control themselves online. That or if I determine they are a LIAR.

So far only *DoobNva* has fallen into "ignore" for lying. I can't abide liars. So he's gone from my view. To lie about something petty is a true indicator you are not worthy of my conversation. Life's too short.


----------



## morgentaler (Oct 5, 2009)

Sure Shot said:


> Where did you get these calculations?


From the TV series "The Universe".
They've been doing some shows on "End of the Earth" scenarios.


----------



## Brazko (Oct 5, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> It wasn't me. I didn't even read that post.
> 
> I've yet to give a neg rep to anyone, but I can't say I haven't been tempted...
> 
> ...


, don't tell me You had to hit the big REd IgnorE Button, hehehe, Yeah, They left a pretty good hunch it wasn't somebody I knew.. I know, Far Worse things thats been said to you , and it never rattled you......

I don't Even know how to Neg (-) rep somebody, those powers have not been bestowed Upon Me ,

Once that Happens, Looke Out 4 eViL FiSh , hahahahahaha.....


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 5, 2009)

Oh, it had to be an elite or a MOD. A MOD would DEFINITELY leave their name, or the point is lost on the recipient. 

Believe me, if I left someone a neg rep.... I'd sign my name. Heck... you know me.... it would be all CAPS...


----------



## Brazko (Oct 5, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Oh, it had to be an elite or a MOD. A MOD would DEFINITELY leave their name, or the point is lost on the recipient.
> 
> Believe me, if I left someone a neg rep.... I'd sign my name. Heck... you know me.... it would be all CAPS...


 
Yes CJ, I do know you well enough that you Would stand behind your Words.....

I definitely know the Mods will make it known who it was because they would simply post it......

Yeah, I figured out it was some New Privileged Elite stroking their power, 

Just like the Elite....., try to keep you subdued, and thinking only Positive.....Hence, the only option for the Peasants is to +rep....,


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 5, 2009)

Yes, actually I think on of the trolls actually bought an elite membership just to neg rep ppl.

How sad is that?

Heck, I just wanted a bigger avatar...


----------



## Brazko (Oct 5, 2009)

That would be sad indeed, I tried to enlist a Elite membership, because I wanted to support this Site..., Thats all. I love what RIU is doing, it has completely changed my Way of LIving, but my card wouldn't go through @ the time I tried.. 

I've found other ways to contribute, but I eventually want to donate monetarily. Right now I have a hard time envisioning myself as being an Elitist... 

Maybe they should call it the V.I.P. , I have no problems with that, Pass the Skrimp and Bubbly


----------



## spdr (Oct 5, 2009)

andersbranderud said:


> From timespace=0, scientists hold that nothing in the universe magically "popped in" with no cause. It is a fundamental law of physics that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.


No it isn't. There is no such physical law. What you're talking about is called 'causality' and Immanuel Kant basically dismantled the whole concept in his _Critique of Pure Reason_.

But Kant is a philosopher, not a scientist, and causality is something which scientists have *never* touched.


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 5, 2009)

on gravity originating from super massive black holes-
i applaud your effort at reaching out and learning new things.. but i think that in your 'frantic' period of learning your over looking one of the most basic fundamentals behind physics, energy, thermodynamics, etc etc..

power in = power out
there is no reaction without equal and opposite reaction...

if gravity were 'originating' from super massive black holes.. where is the return of all the gravitational energy to its source?

gravity is synchronously proportionate to the mass of an object, in other words the bigger the weight, the bigger the gravity... if it originated from a given point and transmitted over distance to a remote object, gravity would have to be detectable in waveform as a particle, as only particles can move... not energy or force itself. energy/force is static untill contact with a force of opposite potential............ sounds complicated but its really not.
lol this guy is awesome.. and he puts it in a way we can all relate to... he doesnt get to gravity till halfway through buts its very interesting:

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y-db4iC0aHw&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y-db4iC0aHw&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]


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## Brazko (Oct 5, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> on gravity originating from super massive black holes-
> i applaud your effort at reaching out and learning new things.. but i think that in your 'frantic' period of learning your over looking one of the most basic fundamentals behind physics, energy, thermodynamics, etc etc..
> 
> power in = power out
> ...


, that's what you thought it Was, Me learning on the Go......., 

The return is Equal/proportionate to the weight/Mass of the Super Massive Black Hole and is Exponentially distributed by MetalLic weight. Size doesn't Matter, but it helps,  We are not able to properly Scientifically calculate this are We? If So, we would be able to Graph the complete metallic Make up distributed throughout the galaxy and see if there is a significant pattern,

As far as being detected, why must it be in a Particle form and not energy or, Force , We only observe the effect of gravity, and can only verify it's existence through this process.., Do we Know the Origin of Light? Check this Out from Wiki:

The speed of light in a vacuum is presently defined to be exactly 299,792,458 m/s (about 186,282 miles per second). This definition of the speed of light means that the metre is now defined in terms of the speed of light. Light always travels at a constant speed, even between particles of a substance through which it is shining. Photons excite the adjoining particles that in turn transfer the energy to the neighbor. This may appear to slow the beam down through its trajectory in realtime. The time lost between entry and exit accounts to the displacement of energy through the substance between each particle that is excited.

Gravity acts similar in this nature except, it passes through Metal....

and So, No, it's not complicated, 

If the Big Magnet is in the middle, then the shrapnel is Pulled towards the middle....

We (and I'm going to stop saying We Shortly) do not know enough to Verify the Origin of Light or Gravity, but we do know where light ends up, and We know where that's At....


Are you trying to Belittle Me , 

Laugh Now, Cry Later..

Stop the Blasphemy on Carl Sagan, that man practically raised me


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## Brazko (Oct 5, 2009)

p.s. it's a tHeoRe, that's All, JeeEeWizzz!!


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 5, 2009)

no ones trying to belittle anyone...besides you maybe trying to belittle me? arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics... not trying to jump on the cliche bandwagon but its true.
i just dont see the logic behind your interpretation of the physics.
demonstrate to me how gravity passes through an object, or how gravity as a force is transmitted over distances.
and not theorys about metallic weights... i want formulas


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 5, 2009)

and im not trying to come off as a hard ass... but what your implicating would mean that the universe is static... because if all mass were a conductor of gravity that is eminating from a single point, how would the current rate of universal expansion be possible without diminishing gravity as objects expand further and further apart?


----------



## Brazko (Oct 5, 2009)

I mean the lil Magnet will Not move the Bigger Magnet.. Calculate THat. I'm not trying to belittle you, I did.. Exactly, What you were trying to do..


What logic are you looking for, I explained it... All Mass has a Metallic Weight Make Up... It doesn't matter the Size.. You are a make up of Metals, hence why your feet are still on the Ground, 

Go Formulate That, Try to Understand the Formulas you Have Now...

I'm sorry, I don't need to put Oxygen into a formula to breathe iT..

I'm not trying to argue with you either, but if you wanted to contest what I said you could of left your personal commentary, and put forth your position for disagreement, like you did after you tried to belittle me..

Now, we can move On, Nice and Orderly, 
and discuss why you are not able to logically comprehend what I said, or we CAn start Naming Names.. and see who's left on the Short Bus


----------



## Brazko (Oct 5, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> and im not trying to come off as a hard ass... but what your implicating would mean that the universe is static... because if all mass were a conductor of gravity that is eminating from a single point, how would the current rate of universal expansion be possible without diminishing gravity as objects expand further and further apart?


Is matter or Space Exanding? Space is Exanding but not into nothing out side itself.. 

Objects are receding from each other but not technically expanding outwardly.. however, they are being clumped together.., 

I would suggest understanding the theory of the Expansion of Space before making that implication.. That is not what Space Expanding is..


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 5, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> demonstrate to me how gravity passes through an object, or how gravity as a force is transmitted over distances.
> and not theorys about metallic weights... i want formulas





> I mean the lil Magnet will Not move the Bigger Magnet.. Calculate THat. I'm not trying to belittle you, I did.. Exactly, What you were trying to do..
> 
> 
> What logic are you looking for, I explained it... All Mass has a Metallic Weight Make Up... It doesn't matter the Size.. You are a make up of Metals, hence why your feet are still on the Ground,
> ...


the defense rests its case


----------



## Brazko (Oct 5, 2009)

you know, I caught your Post, and Posted before I caught you next Post, similar to what happend with you..

Matter being Clumped back together has nothing to do with Space Expanding, the observable universe may be smaller than the Entire Universe.. it has nothing to do with Matter Clumping together within that Space..

but whatever Bro', If you didn't want to go down that road, you shouldn't started... 

Let it Rest, then

&
Keep iT Movin... you Are Pardon


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 5, 2009)

lol dude im not mad, i love a good debate.. stimulates the mind, makes you think, defend your views. i think its cool we have a forum you can do it without a bunch of trolls. i respect you, and your views. sometimes someone has to be the protagonist......


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## Brazko (Oct 5, 2009)

If the only way you can process information is through it being concluded through calculated formulas, (which we do not have, & I stated), then I'm sorry, I don't think in written formulas, and cannot put forth a formula.. besides The information needed is not available to do So..I ThinK..

It's All Good Homey.., I ain't Mad either, it's Called emotional Expression, I got nothing but Love 4 ya' Bro.. That's all I wish to Express/Attract, 

I do enjoy the Antagonistic Motive directed in both respects tho'.. All you do is Grow and Learn, What life is All About

,


----------



## Twistedfunk (Oct 6, 2009)

I stopped reading when I realized that everything that everyone in this thread had to say was covered in the first few weeks of my Psychology of Religion course.


----------



## smoker toker (Oct 6, 2009)

Twistedfunk said:


> I stopped reading when I realized that everything that everyone in this thread had to say was covered in the first few weeks of my Psychology of Religion course.


look a few pages back then at my post where I tossed out the idea that time doesn't exist ... bet they didn't cover that idea.. hehe 

 Smoker Toker


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## morgentaler (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm still wondering where the original poster went...
They make this topic with "proof" and then spout a bunch of babble in the first post that doesn't prove anything.

It's no better than the YouTube videos that say "Proof of God", then spend 10 minutes explaining how proof is "we don't know this yet. or this. or that". 

Ignorance is proof of god? That certainly explains a few things.


----------



## PadawanBater (Oct 6, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> I'm still wondering where the original poster went...
> They make this topic with "proof" and then spout a bunch of babble in the first post that doesn't prove anything.
> 
> It's no better than the YouTube videos that say "Proof of God", then spend 10 minutes explaining how proof is "we don't know this yet. or this. or that".
> ...


lmfao, dude you're on a roll!


----------



## morgentaler (Oct 6, 2009)

If Christianity is the natural order of things, why does it need to be indoctrinated?

Why isn't every inhabitant of the planet a Christian?

Why does "God", who created *everything* have to admonish his followers not to worship other gods?

Why is God powerless to deal with Satan, his own creation?

If he is not powerless, yet allows evil* to continue he is not only the bystander, but the architect of evil.

The son of Winston Churchill said it best, "Isn't God a shit?!"**



* evil being a subjective concept influenced by culture and upbringing.
** God would make a good villain in a movie.


----------



## Stoney McFried (Oct 7, 2009)

Morgantaler, I love you.So far, every comment on this particular subject you have made has been rep worthy.


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 7, 2009)

That son of Churchill was story is priceless. 

here is a quick excerpt from the book on Churchill. I can't remember the exact title of the book. It's at my other home, but I do remember that little story.... I laughed for about a minute after reading it.

Here's the jist of it.

Winston Churchill's son Randolph somehow contrived to remain ignorant of scripture until Evelyn Waugh and a brother officer, in a vain attempt to keep Churchill quiet when they were posted together during the war, bet him he couldn't read the entire Bible in a fortnight: 'Unhappily it has not had the result we hoped. He has never read any of it before and is hideously excited; keeps reading quotations aloud "I say I bet you didn't know this came in the Bible . . . " or merely slapping his side & chortling "God, isn't God a sh**!"


+++ I remember now, it was Roosevelt & Churchill. Name of the book that is. It's a great read.


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## morgentaler (Oct 7, 2009)

Thanks Stoney  It's good to be loved. Especially for an opinion that a lot of people would happily murder me for having 

CrackerJax: Dawkins refers to it in The God Delusion. I have the audio book, rather than the print version. Is it excerpted from something else?


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## CrackerJax (Oct 7, 2009)

It's a well known story and Dawkins is British so.... 


But yes, if you are interested in some of the "behind the scenes" look at the dynamics of these two giants (Roosevelt & Churchill) dealing with the war and EACH other.... then get the book. It is a great piece of history with tons of personal letters from Winston... and the *anecdotal** idiosyncrasies* of Churchill are not to be missed!!


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## Stoney McFried (Oct 7, 2009)

Dawkins was on Bill Maher last week I believe...I don't know, my dvr recorded it and I just watched it last night.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 7, 2009)

Voted smartest guy in the UK....... imagine that.


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## morgentaler (Oct 7, 2009)

I haven't picked up Dawkins' latest book, but I've been reading The Selfish Gene and there's some amazing stuff in there.
The explanation of evolution in base molecules to achieve complex molecules and eventually simple life is elegant and easy to grasp. I'd never really thought about abiogenesis before, and was more interested in what happened after life was already started. But it's really quite similar.

And it's a shame people forgo learning things like that because of an imaginary friend who tortures those who question him.


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## IAm5toned (Oct 7, 2009)

they wanted to build a bible theme park, like 6 flags or disneyland, close to where i live.
thank god it actually went to popular vote and was rejected (lol i love the irony in using thank god for that statement)


----------



## anhedonia (Oct 7, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> I haven't picked up Dawkins' latest book, but I've been reading The Selfish Gene and there's some amazing stuff in there.
> The explanation of evolution in base molecules to achieve complex molecules and eventually simple life is elegant and easy to grasp. I'd never really thought about abiogenesis before, and was more interested in what happened after life was already started. But it's really quite similar.
> 
> And it's a shame people forgo learning things like that because of an imaginary friend who tortures those who question him.


Havnt read selfish gene but isnt that the book where he first talks about "memes"?


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## morgentaler (Oct 7, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> Havnt read selfish gene but isnt that the book where he first talks about "memes"?


Yup. So you can blame Richard for LOLcats.


----------



## anhedonia (Oct 7, 2009)

How about the christianity meme? Isnt that a little more interesting than lolcats? Am I missing something?


----------



## morgentaler (Oct 7, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> How about the christianity meme? Isnt that a little more interesting than lolcats? Am I missing something?


Nope. There's nothing interesting about Christianity.
It's an old meme. Totally played out.

Like those Chuck Norris jokes.


----------



## Brazko (Oct 7, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> no ones trying to belittle anyone...besides you maybe trying to belittle me? arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics... not trying to jump on the cliche bandwagon but its true.
> i just dont see the logic behind your interpretation of the physics.
> demonstrate to me how gravity passes through an object, or how gravity as a force is transmitted over distances.
> and not theorys about metallic weights... i want formulas


I wanted to pass this On to you, this is from "3 Roads to Quantum Gravity" by Lee Smolin; it covers the basic prinicples of what I was trying to explain, however, I don't think in written formulas, but more so in Formulated Imagery., where as, I'm not making shit Up, but Have studied formulas and scientific principles..., then apply them in real time, with the accumulated knowledge I have gained, which I further translate into a real time Working Knowledge, which is further interpeted and used to decipher that which is unknown..., A method used by All Great Minds, and No, I'm not insinuating Anything.... Maybe , but this information is not the actual info I used to come to this conclusion, actually I cannot tell you where I came across the information, so much I have acquired, I just find it easier to connect the Image vs. connecting the 4 chalk boards of (3) formulas , None the less, It was something that I formulated into my present day working Knowledge....Furthermore, it can not be put into a infallible formula, b cause our tools are still Primitive and in the Words of the Author.."We know the principles of the theory and we can deduce from them the basic equations that define the theory. But we cannot actually solve these equations, or even prove that they are mathematically consistent......, the Procedure used is Called Perturbation Theory" In this instance they are using"quantum electrodynamics" aka QED as the basis..,

Luckily Our mind can Forego this Handicap as Well... 

Here Goes

"Quantum theory says that for every wave there is an associated particle. For electromagnetic waves there is the Photon. For electrons there is the electron Wave (the wave-function). The wave doesn't even have to be something fundamental. When I strike a tuning fork I set up waves that travel up and down it: these are sound waves travelling in metal. Quantum theory associates a particle with such sound Waves; it is called a phonon. Suppose I disturb the empty space around us by making a gravitational wave.. THis can be done by waving around anything with mass -- one of my arms will do, or a giant pair of nuetron stars. A gravitational wave can be understood as a tiny ripple moving against a background, which is the empty space.." 

an early stumbled upon observation and method used to discover the rest of our outer laying planets, and so on..

"The particle associated with gravitational waves is called the graviton. No one has ever observed a graviton. It is hard enough even to detect a gravitational wave, as they interact only very weakly with matter. But as long as quantum theory applies to gravitational waves, gravitons must exist. We know that gravitons must interact with matter, for when anything massive oscillates it produces gravitational waves. Quantum theory says that, just as there are photons associated with light, there must be gravitons associated with gravitational waves.

We know that two gravitons will interact with each other. This is because gravitons interact with anything that has energy, and gravitons themselves carry energy. As with the photon, the energy of a graviton is proportional to its frequency, so the higher the frequency of a graviton, the more strongly it will interact with another graviton. We can then ask what happens when two gravitons interact. We know that they will scatter from each other, changing the trajectories.."

they further use QED to explain this interaction, and to further note that they do not really fully understand QED... and only assumptions about the nature of the solutions leads to a procedure of calculating approximately what happens... Perturbation Theory..

Right now this is about as Written formula I can give You, but did so because, I had a hint of that you earnestly wished to know..



note: you all may continue with your selfish Ignorance now..

Ahh Mee 2 Some Booteeee


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## IAm5toned (Oct 7, 2009)

Brazko said:


> I wanted to pass this On to you, this is from "3 Roads to Quantum Gravity" by Lee Smolin; it covers the basic prinicples of what I was trying to explain, however, I don't think in written formulas, but more so in Formulated Imagery., where as, I'm not making shit Up, but Have studied formulas and scientific principles..., then apply them in real time, with the accumulated knowledge I have gained, which I further translate into a real time Working Knowledge, which is further interpeted and used to decipher that which is unknown..., A method used by All Great Minds, and No, I'm not insinuating Anything.... Maybe , but this information is not the actual info I used to come to this conclusion, actually I cannot tell you where I came across the information, so much I have acquired, I just find it easier to connect the Image vs. connecting the 4 chalk boards of (3) formulas , None the less, It was something that I formulated into my present day working Knowledge....Furthermore, it can not be put into a infallible formula, b cause our tools are still Primitive and in the Words of the Author.."We know the principles of the theory and we can deduce from them the basic equations that define the theory. But we cannot actually solve these equations, or even prove that they are mathematically consistent......, the Procedure used is Called Perturbation Theory" In this instance they are using"quantum electrodynamics" aka QED as the basis..,
> 
> Luckily Our mind can Forego this Handicap as Well...
> 
> ...


its ll good... formulated imagery was first attributed to einstein i believe (thought experiments)

and i like the example, it makes what your saying easily visualized, and also i see how i originally misunderstood your original point...

whats your thoughts on the higgs particle? pipedream or eminent fact?


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## anhedonia (Oct 7, 2009)

Anyone read The Tao of Physics or The Dancing Wu Lei Masters?


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## Brazko (Oct 7, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> its ll good... formulated imagery was first attributed to einstein i believe (thought experiments)
> 
> and i like the example, it makes what your saying easily visualized, and also i see how i originally misunderstood your original point...
> 
> whats your thoughts on the higgs particle? pipedream or eminent fact?


Hmmmm. never heard of it, but glad you mentioned them. Something else I can dig into,.....I Like to Learn , Thanks!!!

Can you give me some general background on the subject....?



anhedonia said:


> Anyone read The Tao of Physics or The Dancing Wu Lei Masters?


 
I'm Currently in the Mist of Reading The Tao of Physics, Real Good Book... I could've read through it by now, but I'm a lover Tho'... I like to take my time with it, and let the information Marinate and get a good understanding of what I read before I push ON... Good Insights So Far.. 5stars


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## Brazko (Oct 7, 2009)

Nevermind, I won't ask you to explain Higgs Particle, it's not complicated, but requires some in depth thought and explaining. I can read up on it some more later....

But as far as a Pipe dream, I think Not, nor do I think it's an eminent Fact, but somehow it makes sense to me, just can't explain it now, or maybe never will be.... I'll have to study it some more


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## Brazko (Oct 7, 2009)

btw..., I have heard of the Higgs particle.. I just know of it by the more common names given to it.. Anti-Matter and "The God Particle"

I have some thoughts on it, they particularly go against the accepted assumption that it is unrelated to dark matter, but I have other ideas..., however nothing I can conceptualize now, I haven't really studied much on the Subject.... 

Now, I'm Really glad you brought it up, It is very relative to the whole gravity scenario...


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## IAm5toned (Oct 7, 2009)

lol its more related to mass... but since we know mass affects gravity 

its the reason the large hadron collider was built. no one can detect one (higgs-bosun particle).. modern science has been trying since the idea of the higgs field was proposed in 1967. the higgs field itself may or may not be directly related to the phenomenom of gravitational force being transmitted over large distances, although i think the true benefit to the discovery of one may lead some insight to our understanding of quantum mechanics... of course the problem with quantum mechanics is that everyone agrees it works, but no one really knows HOW it works.. similair to electricity. 

have you done any studying of the multiverse theory? that one blows my mind every time


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## morgentaler (Oct 7, 2009)

I didn't notice the "metallic weight" posts.
Since I can't find any reference to it in my physics textbook, and a basic google turns up nothing physics related can you cite something?

Even a cloud of hydrogen gas, without metals of any sort, exerts gravity. 

And the higgs-boson isn't anti-matter, but it does get called the god particle 

ugh. multiverse theory hurts my brane. (rimshot!)


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## IAm5toned (Oct 7, 2009)

yeah it will put an aching on the old noodle, even when seriously stoned  whats interesting about it is how easily it is demonstrated using photons and interference patterns


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## Brazko (Oct 8, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> lol its more related to mass... but since we know mass affects gravity
> 
> its the reason the large hadron collider was built. no one can detect one (higgs-bosun particle).. modern science has been trying since the idea of the higgs field was proposed in 1967. the higgs field itself may or may not be directly related to the phenomenom of gravitational force being transmitted over large distances, although i think the true benefit to the discovery of one may lead some insight to our understanding of quantum mechanics... of course the problem with quantum mechanics is that everyone agrees it works, but no one really knows HOW it works.. similair to electricity.
> 
> have you done any studying of the multiverse theory? that one blows my mind every time


No, I haven't but intend on picking up some books about it soon, and right, I don't know much about it, but that was my intended meaning sorta, as you picked it up, thanks...




morgentaler said:


> I didn't notice the "metallic weight" posts.
> Since I can't find any reference to it in my physics textbook, and a basic google turns up nothing physics related can you cite something?
> 
> Even a cloud of hydrogen gas, without metals of any sort, exerts gravity.
> ...


Part of what I was saying was sarcasm at the time, the other, me being Lazy and not clarifying my meaning, but trying not to confuse, as long as the person get's the point..and the other part was me trying to relay the fact the we are made of atoms, being lazy again, encompassing the elemental Periodic table chart, atomic weight and mass, hence sticking with the metallic scenario if the person still follows my meaning... This was the point I was referring of how gravity can be generated outward..., We are made of atoms, matter itself acts as the current medium... I was still throwing hints of sarcasm

And Yes that was my point intended, even hydrogen exerts its force of gravity on a smaller plume ., 

and I think I did confuse antimatter with the higgs boson, when I came across the God Particle and crossed the terms up..

I feel like I'm in a classroom sometimes , ...and yeah, it hurts, especially when your high 

But keep me Straight, I need a lil Discipline..

Read back through the posts from the beginning and tell me what you think,


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## Brazko (Oct 8, 2009)

Morgentaler..., Did you ever get a chance to read back over the theory I was stating... It starts around post #190 or #191, just looked and can't remember... I would like to know your thoughts on it, that was the whole point of the "metallic Weight" & gravity examples that I was using.. and horribly twisted up the words.

I assumed you had an interest in what I was saying in concern of metallic weight, since you started researching it.. 

I know a lot of information is still needed. but with little evidence that is provided to us now, I want to know how realistic the scenario may be? In your opinion...


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## morgentaler (Oct 8, 2009)

Okay, I dug back through a lot of stuff, and CJ's points about orphan stars brings up a very good counter argument to the idea you mentioned of gravity originating in black holes at the center of galaxies.
An orphaned star is not only outside of the originating galaxy, it also has to have achieved escape velocity to break from the orbit that the other stars are taking.
Would you not then find evidence of stars dissipating as they broke from the gravity well and lost the bonds that held them together?

I'm only part way through A Briefer History of Time, but I haven't heard of any references to the idea elsewhere. A black hole may provide gravitational stability to a galaxy, but seeing as they are created BY gravity, I don't see how they could be the source of it. Then again, I'm not an astrophysicist, and I read considerably more on biology and genetics  Got links to any articles on the subject?


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Okay, I dug back through a lot of stuff, and CJ's points about orphan stars brings up a very good counter argument to the idea you mentioned of gravity originating in black holes at the center of galaxies.
> An orphaned star is not only outside of the originating galaxy, it also has to have achieved escape velocity to break from the orbit that the other stars are taking.
> Would you not then find evidence of stars dissipating as they broke from the gravity well and lost the bonds that held them together?
> 
> I'm only part way through A Briefer History of Time, but I haven't heard of any references to the idea elsewhere. A black hole may provide gravitational stability to a galaxy, but seeing as they are created BY gravity, I don't see how they could be the source of it. Then again, I'm not an astrophysicist, and I read considerably more on biology and genetics  Got links to any articles on the subject?


Well, to be clear, Black Holes are dense points of Mass, that also make up the Mass of the Galaxy, and the SuperMassive Black HOle exerts it's Gravity exponentially and proportionally just the same as it being any other form of mass.. Hypothectically Speaking

I think I already addressed the Orphan Stars / clusters... Not that I wish not to explain it, it just that it can become to long winded of an explanation again...but they don't drift off, they are ripped from the natural orbit within that galaxy and projected on another course, in which they still could be absorbed again by that galaxy or not, and simply absorbed by another Galaxy, depending upon their trajectory...


I just look at it simply as this.. Mass falls into thhe Gravitational Pull of the SMBH because of it's Mass Density, and this process will continue because the Mass Density of the SMBH will always be greater than the Surrounding Mass, therefore it's gravity will always be exerted on all Matter that surrounds it... 
Oh Well, just wanted another opinion, 

Here is something to think about.....

The Question was what would happen to Earth if the Sun disappeared? Well... What would happen if the Supermassive Black Hole Disappeared? maybe this hypothetical question can further explain the premise of my general point being made.

and no specific links on the subject, but you can gather information form topics of Supermassive black holes, Dark Matter, Galaxies/ formation.. and get a better understanding of what I'm notioning, or maybe simply not..

Thanks for looking back through it, I know it was kinda Muggy


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## morgentaler (Oct 9, 2009)

If the sun disappeared Earth would instantly continue outward on its current vector. (A most entertaining episode of The Univsere). The sudden change in gravitational tidal forces would make it a very, very unpleasant place for us to be (understatement).

If the black hole at the center of the galaxy were to disappear then ditto with the member stars, and the spiral arms of the galaxy would become more of a cloud of matter. Though there would still be gravitational attraction between the individual parts.

Unless you're meaning that the black hole is not the origin of gravity, but rather the primary stabilizing force allowing for solar/planetary masses to interact? A kind of gravitational ambiance in the ballet of the galaxy


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## IAm5toned (Oct 9, 2009)

well the interesting thing regarding galaxies and black holes:

only spiral galaxies are suspected to have supermassive black holes at the center... its the only force theorized to be strong enough to hold billions of stars in a flat spiral trajectory.

not all galaxies are spiral by definition...

...so what is holding the other galaxies, the ones that are not the spiral type, together? is it the gravitational force of the combined star systems that make up these uncommon galaxies? or perhaps something else?
there are at least 2 other known types of galaxy, besides spiral; elliptical, and irregular.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

Black holes do not have to be at the center of galaxies either.

There are ROGUE black holes which are not at the center, but in the outer reaches of the Galaxy.


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Unless you're meaning that the black hole is not the origin of gravity, but rather the primary stabilizing force allowing for solar/planetary masses to interact? A kind of gravitational ambiance in the ballet of the galaxy


Yeah, now I think you your kind of getting the picture....and this is where I was drawing relation to the higgs field/particle/ boson, which I know little about, but isn't it suppose to be like a field that as a particle moves through it, it attracts mass, something like that, hahahaha, Whew!! I need to leave this subject alone, starting to stress the Gray Matter 



IAm5toned said:


> well the interesting thing regarding galaxies and black holes:
> 
> only spiral galaxies are suspected to have supermassive black holes at the center... its the only force theorized to be strong enough to hold billions of stars in a flat spiral trajectory.
> 
> ...


 
Well I think that is half true but I'll have to relook to make sure, but those elliptical and irregular galaxies are supposedly the realtime actual colliding of Galaxies.. They could've all easily been spiral before they collided, We are just observing the phase in pattern of the collision... So our galaxy could eventually be elliptical or irregular after a collision, but the dense core of both galaxies will merge and repeat the cycle again, or maybe just one, as I've read that sometimes the core of 1 galaxy can be ejected away from the collision, leaving more for the other to consume..


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Black holes do not have to be at the center of galaxies either.
> 
> There are ROGUE black holes which are not at the center, but in the outer reaches of the Galaxy.


SuperMassive Black holes are at the Center (Massive Density), Black holes are within that Galaxy (minor density) in comparison, but yes more density then any star or planet, but still in no comparison to the Center...

The rogue Black holes are simply part of the process..


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

There is no plan.... there is no pattern.


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## IAm5toned (Oct 9, 2009)

or they could be spiral galaxies in the making  before a black hole is either created by supernovae or attracted to the mass of the galaxy


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

Any large star is capable of producing a black hole. It is only the size which varies.

There may be black holes out there not tethered to anything but simply drifting in the cosmos sucking up material as it bumps up against solar systems.....

planet killers. All completely random.


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> or they could be spiral galaxies in the making  before a black hole is either created by supernovae or attracted to the mass of the galaxy


Yes they could be spiral galaxies in the making, however, the Supper massive black hole is already there, the material/mass just hasn't formed yet.. Our perception of time just isn't the same..

Before there was any stars in the universe, Supermassive blackholes formed collectively at individual points, which make up our presently observed galaxies which may have been the collection of the scattered dark matter clumping to begin..

that's a misconception, Stars are not the original precursor to supermassive blackholes...although they can create a black hole

SuperMassive Blackholes formed before we had Stars...


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> There is no plan.... there is no pattern.


It sounds like you are interjecting your religion in this CJ, chaos is a theory, which has some truth behind it, but where it makes errors are in the fact of the Orderly distribution between galaxies that have no contact.. which breaks some of the rules of randomness, as well as host of other errors which make it a theory



CrackerJax said:


> Any large star is capable of producing a black hole. It is only the size which varies.
> 
> There may be black holes out there not tethered to anything but simply drifting in the cosmos sucking up material as it bumps up against solar systems.....
> 
> planet killers. All completely random.


Stars collapsing into a dense blackhole is irrevelant to the point, and Yes there could be a black holes drifting in intergalactic space, but I think we would notice it effects on the surrounding Mass, and it is possible we just haven't spotted one yet, However, I don't think we will come across that scenario


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

No, science has revealed that chaos lies at the center of everything.


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks for the Morning Chat guys, I don't claim to be correct on this 1 bit, but do appreciate the opposed debate... Informative opinion outside of my own is the only way I can get different perscpective instantly without having to come to them myself over a period of time..

This is one way I can correct or move forward with my thoughts, Thanks, hey we just might stumble across something collectively that credit us for being new age pioneers,........Maybe


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> No, science has revealed that chaos lies at the center of everything.


 
, ... Ok, CJ, Chaos is a FAct, it has no errors, it has been scientifically proven and is consistent in Theory in all phases of the Universe.. You are Right,


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

Chaos brings order, or at least the "appearance" of order.....


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Chaos brings order, or at least the "appearance" of order.....


Right...I think order just appears chaotic...


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

Science doesn't.... I'll stick with science.


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## morgentaler (Oct 9, 2009)

Chaos, as a term, gets tainted by the concept of cities burning, riots in the streets, etc. so people think of chaos as messy, noisy, destructive.
But it can just be very tiny variations in a system which can have little noticeable effect at first but pile up over time.
So like CJ said, an object can appear to have order, but as errors or outside influences modify a pattern, the overall pattern trends away from the initial implied order.

Disclaimer: Not a mathematician. That's about as good as I get on that topic without resorting to direct cut and pastes


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

Hahah... that's close enough.

If you think the universe is orderly.... try an make an accurate calendar that doesn't have leftovers.....


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## IAm5toned (Oct 9, 2009)

not possible


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

So, if our own solar system has no true pattern of order.... just extrapolate it out.


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## Babs34 (Oct 9, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> If,inferred,maybe,possibly,..............
> 
> I'll just sum it up without a bunch of those.....
> 
> Man does not understand the timespace continuum nearly enough to say what is the primary causal effect which brought our "known" universe into being.


 *LMAO.....how did I just know you would be the first to post? *


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

wow, you went back pretty far for that one.....

hey, it still looks like a good post!


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

Well, not to keep beating a Dead Horse, I guess I wasn't the first person to observe gravity originating from the center of the Galaxies.. Looks like almost all physicist are coming to the same conclusion.. I tried to put it in Stoner terminology and keep it simple ( I like Simplicity), but my point keeps getting construed with religious politics as that wasn't the direction I was heading.. 

So here for all you people who need numbers and people with Higher Educations to validate anything...

and sadly, I'm not the smartest person on earth ,.....

If you need me to interpet the terminology or formulas, just buzz


*The Origin of Gravity*​ 
*The acceleration of a free falling object is caused by the refraction *
*of oscillating particles at a gravitational field 1 Summary*

*It is a well proven fact, that the speed of light is reduced in a gravitational field. As a consequence, a light beam, which passes a big object, is bent towards the object. This bending process is quantitatively explained by the refraction of light at the gravitational potential. - The same is true for every light-like particle.*

*From the spin and from the magnetic moment of an elementary particle it can be concluded, that the constituents of such particle oscillate permanently at the speed of light c. For the electron this was determined by Paul Dirac in 1928. If the effect of refraction is applied to this oscillation within an elementary particle, it yields the correct gravitational acceleration of a free physical object in a gravitational field.*

*This evaluation yields not only the gravitational behaviour of an object at rest but also explains the acceleration, which occurs at high speed and which is normally explained by General Relativity ("curvature of space-time").*

*And, very surprisingly, you will find that the mass of an object is not the cause of its gravitational field.*

*This consequence has the potential to eliminate the problem of Dark Matter and the very grave problem of Quantum Gravity. *

*The structure of particles used here is called the Basic Particle Model.*
(Note: This site is also available as a pdf file.)
*2 Bending of a Light Beam Passing a Massive Object *

The speed of light is not constant in the vicinity of matter but depends - according to the present understanding of physics - on the gravitational potential in the following way::






2.1​

where _c__0_ is the speed of light in the gravitation-free space, _G_ is the gravitational constant and _M_ is the mass of the object, which is traditionally said to cause the gravitational potential; _r_ is the distance of the position under investigation to the centre of the object. The power _p_ is ½ or 1 depending on the direction of motion in respect to the centre of gravity.

This equation was experimentally proven e.g. by the Shapiro experiment in 1970 (for small changes of _c_).

From classical optics it follows, that a light beam, which passes an area in which the speed of light depends on the position, is bent towards the area, where the speed of light is lower.




 
*Figure 2.1: A light-like object **deflected **by a massive object*​ 
The deflection of a light beam passing the sun was correctly given for the first time by Albert Einstein. He predicted the gravitational acceleration of the photon to be twice the value of the Newtonian acceleration (as it was for the first time predicted by Soldner in 1801). This was historically taken as an important proof for Einsteins concept of a 4-dimensional curved space-time. We will see, however, that Einsteins concept is not necessary to achieve this result. A calculation, which is based on the classical assumption of refraction, yields the same result.
The calculation, which proves the equivalence between the assumption of refraction and the assumption of a curved space-time, will later be added in an appendix to this paper. At this place we will give a short deduction. We will first use the equivalence principle, which is the base of Einsteins General Relativity. Afterwards an abbreviated mathematical deduction will follow.

Let us assume, that two light-like objects rather than a photon move along the path of the photon. They may be bound at an infinitesimal distance to each other. Then the object, which has the greater distance to the centre of gravity, will move a little bit faster according to eq (2.1). This causes the path of both to be curved towards the centre of gravity. This is the classical refraction process.

*2.1 Application of the Equivalence Principle*

An observer who is situated at an arbitrary position close to the path and who observes an infinitesimal small space around his position will - according to General Relativity - not notice that the space is curved. From his view both objects move at the same speed. And he will recognize that they move straight. So, also in his view the pair of objects follows the law of refraction. 

So the deflected photon follows the path which is given by the classical refraction, which yields exactly the same result as General Relativity. 

*2.2 Mathematical Derivation*

Here now follows a brief collection of the most important equations, which describe the path. The effective speed of light for an arbitrary direction is






(2.2)​

Here _chor_ is the horizontal component of _c_ and _cvert_ is the vertical component of the light beam, where vertical means the direction from the photon to the centre of gravity and horizontal the direction perpendicular to it.



If we use the common definition for the so called Schwarzschild radius _rs_




(2.3)​

then we can write the components according to (2.1) 





(2.4)​and, respectively





(2.5)​For a photon which moves along the sun, the split between the horizontal and the vertical component is 


described by 




(2.6)​



and




(2.7)​

where _&#952; _is the angle between the radius vector of the actual position of the photon to the sun on one hand and the radius vector of its closest position to the sun on the other hand.

Combining (2.1) thru (2.7) we get





(2.​taking into account that _rs_ << _r_.



If we now assume a second particle farer from the sun by a distance of _dy_, the corresponding equation for its speed _c+_ is 




(2.9)​ 

The difference of both is (using again _rs_ << _r _and omitting terms proportional to _dy2)_




(2.10)​



The different speed of both particles causes a curvature of the pfad of radius _R_, which is




(2.11)​



The corresponding acceleration _a_ of this set of 2 objects is




(2.12)​

You can now use (2.3) to see that for _&#952;_ = _0_ this is the Newtonian acceleration.

It may be surprising that the amount of _a _increases for a certain range of _&#952; &#8800; 0_ even though the radius _r_ increases as well. (This is the reason for the fact that a integrated yields twice the result of Newton.) 

Next we will determine the deflection angle _&#945;__._ The differential increase _d__&#945;_ is




where the differential move _dx_ of the particle is given by




And so we get




(2.13) or, with reference to the minimum distance_ d_ to the centre of the sun, 




Now there is
Top




(2.14) This equation integrated over _d__&#952;_ from _&#952; = -__&#960;__/2_ to _&#952; = __&#960;/2 _yields




(2.15) After inserting now _*- G = 6.674 · 10-11 m3 kg-1 s-2*_
_*- M = 1.989 ·1030 kg*_
_*- c = 2.998 · 108 m s-1*_
_*- d = 6.95 · **108 m*_
we get, after converting to angular units, the correct result of 

*· · · · **1.75 arc-sec.*

This corresponds to twice the normal gravitational acceleration and conforms to the observation as well as to the prediction of General Relativity - without using General Relativity. 
*3 Reference of Gravity to the Basic Particle Model*

*3.1 The Structure of Elementary Particles*

To understand further implications of the refraction process to the phenomenon of gravity, we have to investigate the general structure of matter, which means, the structure of elementary particles.

From the dynamic parameters of an elementary particle, its spin and its magnetic moment, and also from its relativistic behaviour it follows, that a particle is built by sub-particles, called here 'Basic Particles', which orbit each other at the speed or light c as shown in figure 3.1.





*Figure 3.1: Basic Particle Model*

Top This structure was in principle already detected in 1930 by Erwin Schrödinger, when he analysed the Dirac function of the electron and found, that there must be a permanent internal oscillation at the speed of light c, which he called in German "Zitterbewegung" ("zbw"). 

In the Basic Particle Model it is assumed, that this structure is valid for all leptons and in addition for all quarks. For the photon we initially follow the idea of Louis de Broglie, that it is a composition of 2 leptons.

*3.2 Conditions for the Refraction of an Elementary Particle*

We have shown that a pair of elementary objects, i.e. in our case a pair of Basic Particles, is subject to refraction in a gravitational field. But what is about a single object?

To make the considerations following next usable for a gravitational process, we have to assume that also a single Basic Particle is subject to refraction. This is a necessary assumption at this place to make the following work. But it can also be logically understood from the view of the particle, if we assume that even a Basic Particle has an extension (kind of a charge cloud) or it is in a process of permanent oscillation. 

So it has to be assumed, that a single Basic Particle is subject to refraction.

*3.3 Gravity for an Object at Rest*

*3.3.1 Gravitational Acceleration in Certain Orientations*

If an elementary particle is placed in a gravitational field, its Basic Particles are subject to refraction as explained in section 3.2. This refraction causes the Basic Particles to deviate from their circular path. This in turn will cause a movement of the entire elementary particle.

If we take the case, that the elementary particle is oriented such that its orbital axis points towards the source of gravity, then the refraction causes the Basic Particles to spiral towards the source of gravity. So the entire elementary particle will move into the direction of the source. Due to the refraction the pitch angle of the Basic Particles, _&#945;__,_ will steadily increase. This causes the elementary particle to perform an accelerated motion towards the gravitational source.




 
*Figure 3.2: Progressive spiralling downwards*​ 

Top 
Figure 3.2 shows the accelerated motion downwards. Please note that only the path of one of the two Basic Particles is show to keep the drawing simple.

In this case the acceleration of the (composed) elementary particle is similar to the acceleration given in 


equation (2.12) 




for _&#952; = 0_*, *·i.e.




(3.1) or, re-inserted for the Schwarzschild radius _rs_




(3.2) there is




(3.3) which is the Newtonian acceleration. *3.3.1 Gravitational Acceleration in arbitrary orientations*

In the general case the orientation of the axis is at an arbitrary angle _&#952;_ with respect to the vertical direction (see figure 3.4). 




 
*Figure 3.4: General orientation of a particle*​ 

Top In this case only the projection of the refraction into the vertical direction is effective for gravity. This means on one hand, that the gravitational acceleration is reduced compared to the case above. But, on the other hand, the effect of reduction is compensated by the increase of refraction for the vertical component as it is visible in eq (2.12), i.e. the term with a factor of 3. 

So, also in the case of an arbitrary orientation of the elementary particle we can get the result eq (3.3)




which is the well known result for the classical case (Newton). 


*4 The Cause of Gravity*

We have seen that gravity is in fact not a force but a refraction process. And the cause of the refraction is the varying speed of light _c_ in the vicinity of matter. 

*4.1 Varying Speed of Light*

Equation (2.1) is the basis to explain all phenomena of gravity. Next the question has to be answered, why _c_ is reduced in the vicinity of matter. The answer is that the reduction of _c_ is caused by the effect of the exchange particles, which build the binding field of the Basic Particles.

According to the Basic Particle Model, the binding field is the field of the strong interaction, which is  also according to the model  the universal force in our world affecting all existing particles. 

These exchange particles, which cause an attraction or repulsion in a random way, interact as well with every light-like particle. They cause such a particle to be deflected towards the origin of the exchange particle (i.e. the Basic Particle) or away from it. So the light-like particle performs a random walk as depicted in figure 4.1. As a result the average speed of the light-like particle is reduced, even though the microscopic speed is still the speed of light _c_. 






​ 
Figure 4.1: Perturbed way of a light-like particle​ 

Top According to the Basic Particle Model the field of every Basic Particle is the same independent of the elementary particle, to which the Basic Particle belongs, and so is the flow of exchange particles. Consequently the reduction of _c_ and so the gravitational effect is independent from the elementary particle, which means that it is independent of the size and consequently independent of the mass of the elementary particle. Every elementary particle provides the same contribution to the gravitational field. 

This fact is in contrast to the conventional physics, but it helps to overcome the principle problems of present gravitational physics.

*4.2 Speed Reduction in Detail*



The reduction of _c_ is, as mentioned above, caused by the continuous deflection of the light-like particle. 




Figure 4.2: Stream of exchange particles​ 


The deflection (cross speed), on the other hand, depends on rate, entropy, distance

original rate prop. _N _(number of sources)
entropy prop._ r_
distance prop._ 1/r2 _
If we describe these influences quantitatively, we get the equation (2.




(The deduction will be added later at this place.)

If we combine this equation with the Lorentz transformation, we end up  after an appropriate number of deduction steps  at the following equation:




(4.1) which is normally derived in the context of the Schwarzschild formalism. It is the central equation to treat phenomena like the Mercury advance etc. (The dot on top of a symbol means the derivative to the proper time _&#964;__,_ as it is measured by an observer moving with the object under investigation.)

(The detailed numerical deduction also of this equation will be added in due course.) 
*5 The Equivalence Principle*

The equivalence principle, which states that the gravitational attraction is strictly proportional to the inertial mass of an object, was initially stated by Newton. According to Newton's law of motion 




(5.1) the acceleration of an object is given by




(5.2) where _mi_ is the inertial mass of the object and _f_ the force applied to the object.

On the other hand, Newton assumed a gravitational force




(5.3) where _mg_ is the gravitational mass of the object.

The gravitational acceleration has, according to Newton, to be defined by eq. (5.2); consequently 




(5.4) When it was necessary for Newton to explain, that the acceleration a is independent of the object's mass, he introduced the assertion





Top for all physical objects.

This assertion is called the Equivalence Principle. Please note that this is purely an assumption derived from experimental results. Neither Newton, nor later Einstein could give a rationale for this equivalence principle.

*5.1 Equivalence Formally *

In section 3, eq. (3.1) was derived without any reference to a mass or to a force. 

Eq. (3.3):




is completely equivalent to eq. (5.4) if _mg /mi = 1_ is assumed. So eq. (3.3) can be understood as a formal proof of the equivalence principle. 

*5.2 Equivalence Physically *

According to the refraction approach, the acceleration of an object in a gravitational field is not dependent on the mass of the object. 

The refraction process as explained in section 2 affects the constituents of an elementary particle, the Basic Particles. As the Basic Particles do not have any mass at all, the diffraction takes place as a purely geometrical process, no force is involved, and neither is mass. The resulting deflection of a mass-less Basic Particle, which moves at the velocity of light _c_, is consequently independent of the mass and of the size of the particle as a whole.

Now, what about an object in a gravitational field, for which we need a force to keep it at its place? To understand this, we have to look into the physical mechanism of inertial mass. At any motion, hence also at the refractive motion, both Basic Particles guide each other. If now an external force acts on either of the particles, the other one will try to keep the particle on its normal path. In case of gravity the normal path is the refraction path, and the normal path of the whole object is the accelerated free fall. So, the external force has to counteract the same mechanism of inertial behavior as in the case of a normal acceleration. This is the force we have to apply to keep a particle at its place and which is indicated by a scale, and this force is - quite surprisingly in fact - the inertial force of an accelerated motion rather than a gravitational force on a static object.

If we look at it in this way, then *"equivalence" is a misnomer*. There is nowhere any kind of equivalence between two kinds of a force or two kinds of a mass. The gravitational effect is in fact not related to a force or to a mass at all, but is purely acceleration from its natural origin, the geometrical refraction process.


*6 Present Problems with Gravity*

It is a fact, that our present understanding of gravity causes a lot of problems in understanding physical and astronomical phenomena. Let's name three of them: 1.Until now it has not been possible to determine the gravitational constant _G_ with an accuracy comparable to that of other physical constants. The conflicting results of different labs cannot be explained by the inherent inaccuracy of the measurements. - When doing these measurements, the experimenters refer the measured force to the mass of the objects involved. But if the mass is not the cause of gravity, then other parameters of the test objects have to be taken into account, which is not done. So the lack of precision is understandable
2.It is presently not understood, why a rotating galaxy has a stable configuration. By conventional calculations the mass within the galaxy can only explain ca. 1/6 of the necessary centripetal acceleration. - If we assume, that not the mass of the stars is the cause of the gravitational field but e.g. the number of elementary particles, which build the stars, then we are close to a solution without assuming things like "dark matter" or undetected elementary particles.
3. Dark Energy, which is a phantom as the acceleration of supernovae is only a seeming evaluation result.

*6.1 The "Dark Matter" Phenomenon*

Some years ago it was detected, that the rotational speed within and around big galaxies is in conflict with the equilibrium speed determined on the basis of standard gravity. Figure 6.1 shows the discrepancy.




 
*Figure 6.1: Equilibrium conflict at the galaxy NGC 3198 (The radius of the galaxy is 10 kpc)*​ 

Top The solid curve labelled "disk" is the rotational speed dependent from the radius as a result of a normal gravitational calculation. The uppermost values are measurements of the real speed; a curve (also solid) is fitted through these measurement. The medium solid line labelled "halo" describes the required distribution of the assumed "Dark Matter" in order to explain the measured values. The red dotted line, which is very close to the "halo" curve, follows from the assumption described above, that every elementary particle contributes equally to the gravitational field. It is the contribution of light particles (i.e. neutrinos and photons). In the drawing the height of this line was chosen to fit into the needs of this diagram, but it fits within a tolerance of a factor 2-3 to the assumed data; its curvature, however, is given by the natural distribution of the light particles and is not parameterised. 
Of the light particles mentioned, the photons are mainly generated by the hot, shining stars in the centre of the galaxy. The neutrinos are similarly generated by the nuclear processes within the stars, the sources of which are also mostly in or close to the centre of the galaxy. These particles build a continuous flow off the centre with the speed of light _c_ (or almost this speed). This flow causes their spatial distribution to be




where *r *is the distance to the centre of the galaxy. The number of particles _N_ within a sphere up to a radius *r**0* is then




The acceleration *a* in the gravitational field towards the centre is for *r *_=* r*_*0* 




The centrifugal acceleration on the other hand is





Top In order to keep both accelerations in a balance, it follows for the orbital speed *v* that




This is the reason for the curvature of the red dotted line in figure 6.1, and so it provides the contribution to the gravitational field, which is elsewhere assigned to the so called "Dark Matter".
*7 Conclusion*
Gravity can be explained by use of 1.The experimentally proven fact, that the speed of light is dependent on the gravitational potential 2.The Basic Model of Matter; which means that elementary particles are built by sub-particles, which orbit each other at the speed of light _c_ In this way the model explains the phenomena of gravity 1. The Newtonian acceleration of an object at rest 2.The gravitational acceleration of an object at high speed as e.g. a photon passing the sun Also it explains the observations made in the context of General Relativity which are e.g. 1.The rotation speed of galaxies (the Dark Matter problem) 2. The perihelion advance of the Mercury.
Generally speaking, there is no longer a need for the assumption of a curved space in order to explain the phenomena named above. In addition we have to accept that the mass of an object is not the cause of the object's gravitational field. 

An explanation for the 'Origin of (inertial) Mass' is also available. *NOTE:*
The concept of the Basic Particle Model was presented initially at the Spring Conference of the German Physical Society (Deutsche Physikalische Gesellschaft) on 24 March 2000 in Dresden by Albrecht Giese.

(Secondary title: The Origin of Gravitation)

Comments are welcome. 

2009-07-19
Top


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

This one is even better well spoken, not so many formulas, but explains everything I said in "I'm so high this is getting to hard to explain, Pot head terminology"... 

It's pretty long and I have read it, but I won't paste it but give you the link...

http://www.regenerating-universe.org/13)_What_is_Gravity.htm


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

To add... it's all theoretical, We don't have the tools of Accuracy to establish it in a factual manner, and please read through it carefully, as I may have mis interpeted some information as well.., I'm not perfect, Yet


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

Pray tell me, what does this have to do with G*D or religion.... what's your point? 

Gravity may indeed originate from black holes.....and???? ..... other than being an interesting thing to think about..... what's the connection?


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Pray tell me, what does this have to do with G*D or religion.... what's your point?
> 
> Gravity may indeed originate from black holes.....and???? ..... other than being an interesting thing to think about..... what's the connection?


You know, I'm glad you asked.. 

Well, since you don't believe in God.. you and a couple of your comrades seem to take everything a person says that have a Religious background or believe in God as some HOkey Pokey B.S.

When I stated this simple observation as a, Wow, look what I just thought of, just as people were sharing their thoughts about the Sun disappearing and shit, you instantly tried to refute what I was saying, because I'm logically unstable, because I have a belief in God... and So without trying to base your opinion on what I was saying you begin interjecting your Biased bullshit.. 

Fuck It, You know what.. I'm not explaining Shit, It all Pretty clear to everybody reading it.. Athiests ar FULL OF SHIT just like everybody else..

PEACe da Fuck OUT


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## IAm5toned (Oct 9, 2009)

if atheists were full of shit... wouldnt that make them believers? 

that was too hard to resist.. i really just couldnt help it


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## krustofskie (Oct 9, 2009)

The whole of human kind is just fucked up and full of shit.


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> if atheists were full of shit... wouldnt that make them believers?
> 
> that was too hard to resist.. i really just couldnt help it


 
..., Yeah it Would.. and I wasn't specifically including you into that category.. You were open to understanding my point.. But I'm tired of this Crack of My Ass smell Like Roses Bullshit.. 

I keep saying it has nothing to do with a person's belief system, but the person themselves.. and I'm not directing that to all Atheists, or believe that to be true of anybody.. I just call it, like I see it.. Or don't see it 

I'm cool now, but I spent the last two nights trying to explain this shit, in the Wee hours of the night, 

I'm Ok with CJ too, But I'll Ride on a Busta if I have too....

I'm good now, Just a little Venting, that's All


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> The whole of human kind is just fucked up and full of shit.


Amen, KrusT ' O


WoW,, I'll end my night on tRiple Six fellas

BeWARe [email protected]#$%$


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## Babs34 (Oct 9, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> wow, you went back pretty far for that one.....
> 
> hey, it still looks like a good post!


* Amazing that I just wasted 30 plus minutes to see that not a one "proved" NOR disproved a damn thing.....always entertaining though to see that those who are so determined to DEMAND proof....receive less of it.*

*...Yet, expend so much energy "proving"* it.


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

You can Get Da Fuck Too, Busta


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

Exactly babs..... the religious just can't let go of the myth. I never expected for them to see the logic fallacies. Religion is devoid of logic.


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## Babs34 (Oct 9, 2009)

*I believe in God CJ....you forgot.  It's ok......I won't try to sway you to the sane side of this all, LOL. *


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

You both need to come out of FAntasy World, and Stop being a Dick Rider, the Evidence is There, You're both FULL of Shit..


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

It's alright CJ, you know you're my Bottom Hoe, I can't do without Cha'


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *I believe in God CJ....you forgot.  It's ok......I won't try to sway you to the sane side of this all, LOL. *


i knew it Babs....  juts yankin ur chain a bit...


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## Babs34 (Oct 9, 2009)

Brazko said:


> You both need to come out of FAntasy World, and Stop being a Dick Rider, the Evidence is There, You're both FULL of Shit..


 *"Dude".......have you been drinking? Smoking never makes me that aggressive.*
*Did you seriously get so lost in your "proofs" that you lost sight?*
*"Hello" *


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## Babs34 (Oct 9, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> i knew it Babs....  juts yankin ur chain a bit...


 *Hehe......I can handle it.*


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## morgentaler (Oct 9, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> * Amazing that I just wasted 30 plus minutes to see that not a one "proved" NOR disproved a damn thing.....always entertaining though to see that those who are so determined to DEMAND proof....receive less of it.*
> 
> *...Yet, expend so much energy "proving"* it.


Disprove? Disprove what? 
Are we expected to start disproving unicorns, leprechauns, and the tooth fairy next?

If you claim that Reese's Pieces fall from the sky on the first Monday after the Autumnal Equinox, it's up to you to prove it.

There's no need to disprove god, because despite the claims of such a being existed nobody ever shows any proof.

Circular reasoning is a favorite, and it's still not proof:

"God is real. Because the bible says so. The bible is true because it's the word of god."

Additionally the common claim of "Well, we don't know how the universe started, therefore GOD DID IT!" is used as "proof".

Well, people used to believe that demons and sin made people sick. Now it's known that it's infectious agents, toxins, and genetic defects.

The competition between religions, or "My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend." is made moot by the fact that none have shown that their imaginary friend is any more real than the others.

If the blurry silhouette of Jesus on a grilled cheese sandwich is enough to sway someone over to religion, you can keep 'em.


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *"Dude".......have you been drinking? Smoking never makes me that aggressive.*
> *Did you seriously get so lost in your "proofs" that you lost sight?*
> *"Hello" *


No, Drinking is too Hard, takes a toll on the body and too much effort to get where you need to be... I'm aggressive by Nature, that's one reason I meditate, I try to focus that energy, but as you can see, I focus it pretty good, Sorry you got caught in the Cross Fire..

I've been Sober for the last 3 days (smoking that is) that's probably the problem too..


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## Babs34 (Oct 9, 2009)

Brazko said:


> No, Drinking is too Hard, takes a toll on the body and too much effort to get where you need to be... I'm aggressive by Nature, that's one reason I meditate, I try to focus that energy, but as you can see, I focus it pretty good, Sorry you got caught in the Cross Fire..
> 
> I've been Sober for the last 3 days (smoking that is) that's probably the problem too..


* ...I was truthfully being a smartass.....playfully of course.*
*The truth is that life is too short to play scientist to oneanother.*
*How can any one person pose their or "their" reality as justified or REAL?*
*It's impossible.....and it's really just that simple. *


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## anhedonia (Oct 9, 2009)

Yes, its all just chaos.


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## Babs34 (Oct 9, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Disprove? Disprove what?
> Are we expected to start disproving unicorns, leprechauns, and the tooth fairy next?
> 
> If you claim that Reese's Pieces fall from the sky on the first Monday after the Autumnal Equinox, it's up to you to prove it.
> ...


 *Again....why all the negative energy expended to "prove" NOTHING?*
*Let me tell you bud....if Reeces come falling from the sky....I'm grabbing them!!! I have NO "need" to prove to you that they did IN FACT come pouring down, yanno?*
*No, you don't....apparently.*
*What don't you get? That I'm normal for being a believer in something much more omnipontent than myself?*
*The tooth fairy isn't real.  Sorry...hate to enligthen you with that fact. I KNOW.....I have laid enough bills under those pillows and have the saved teeth to prove it. *
*Negative energy.....that's all you are offering me here babe.*
*I could go on tangent after tangent via the Bible, but yanno....why bother?*
*You know EVERYTHING. *
*That "Jesus on a grilled cheese".....priceless. ....ingenious even. *


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> * ...I was truthfully being a smartass.....playfully of course.*
> *The truth is that life is too short to play scientist to oneanother.*
> *How can any one person pose their or "their" reality as justified or REAL?*
> *It's impossible.....and it's really just that simple. *


That's the point, I wasn't playing scientist, I felt like sharing an insight, it was a show of ignorant disrespect and any who agreed alike, simply basing their opinion to be spiteful in regards that "this person is a believer" refute it and disregard it as illogical..it was a hot topic as long as they felt they were on the right side of the argument, but all of a sudden it was pointless in discussion when the possibility that they might be wrong... Its called principles.. I sat there and listened to their points of view and never and never made a slight at their probable ignorance.. I didn't judge them based on their belief and the convo was never about me trying to prove God.. But he kept imposing his belief system on me.. Judging my position, based on nothing, as well as me stating it was just me following the scientific evidence, he always talks of a moral high ground, well that's a joke.

I wasn't imposing anything, he was trying to impose his. And it is possible to share a individual reality, when a person is open and willing to listen without holding contempt bias..I can understand anybody's reality..


And whether I knew you being a smartass or not.. I knew the motives behind your posts, hence you got hit as well.. I said I knew how to focus it didn't I


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

In that razor like focus of yours... tell me something.. 

_You start out saying..._ "it was a hot topic as long as *they* felt *they* were on the right side of the argument, but all of a sudden it was pointless in discussion when the possibility that *they* might be wrong..."
_
And this..._ "I sat there and listened to *their* points of view and never and never made a slight at their probable ignorance.. I didn't judge *them* based on *their* belief and the convo was never about me trying to prove God."

_Then you switch to_ ... "But *he* kept imposing *his* belief system on me.. Judging my position, based on nothing, as well as me stating it was just me following the scientific evidence, *he* always talks of a moral high ground, well that's a joke.

Huh???? I must be out of focus.... which is correct? Who's them? Who's he?


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## Babs34 (Oct 9, 2009)

*"Them"......"they" are naysayers. They exist on all sides of any realm...imagine that.*
*There lies the problem. "They" intend to do nothing more than impose "their" beliefs.*
*My theory is simple....who or what are any of us attempting to prove "to"............why do we invest so much in what "others" may or may not believe?*
*It's fruitless I tell ya........no fruit, no life. *


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## morgentaler (Oct 9, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Again....why all the negative energy expended to "prove" NOTHING?*


Why oppose dogmatic faith? Because it's a poison that keeps trying to insinuate itself into government and schools.

Look at the Texas school board system. It's a constant battle for people who actually want their children to be educated and not indoctrinated.

But of course those who want religion in school and government only want it to be *their* religion.

If George Sr. would have had his way, non-Christians wouldn't even have the right to be citizens of the US.

We don't have it nearly as bad in Canada yet, but the evangelicals are running more recruitment drives here every year.

Yet, for some reason, it's considered bad manners to challenge religion. If someone has a ridiculous political belief, or thinks that rubbing their head will make money come their way, you can challenge or ridicule it. But try that with religion, and you've stepped over a line.

Oddly though, the religious can stand around telling others that they're going to hell for not believing in sky-god and zombie-jesus, but that's okay.

To imaginary-hell with that.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

If Christianity wasn't a cult, half of their opposition would disappear


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## morgentaler (Oct 9, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> If Christianity wasn't a cult, half of their opposition would disappear


If Christianity became the mandated religion, ALL of their opposition would disappear.

And not because people changed their minds.


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## Babs34 (Oct 9, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Why oppose dogmatic faith? Because it's a poison that keeps trying to insinuate itself into government and schools.
> 
> Look at the Texas school board system. It's a constant battle for people who actually want their children to be educated and not indoctrinated.
> 
> ...


* A possible Jevohovah's witness knocking on your door isn't your problem.*
*Look at what is happening in London.......coming to your neck of the woods soon.*
*Rightfully gripe then.......and only then.* 
*No need to imagine hell if you wait too long.*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 9, 2009)

Yes.... let's just go with buddhism as a national religion. It's about the only religion that is well thought out.


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## Babs34 (Oct 9, 2009)

*LOL CJ.......who's talking national religion.....other than islam?*
*I dig Buddhists.....they pose NO threat to my lifestyle WHATSOEVER......their beliefs----pure and simple.*
*Do I follow the faith? Nope.*
*Let's face reality folks......Christians are not a threat to your beliefs/lifestyle. Awaken to what IS.*


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## IAm5toned (Oct 9, 2009)

right wing christian fundamentalists are preventing my state from even considering legalization... tell me that doesnt affect my lifestyle


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> In that razor like focus of yours... tell me something..
> 
> _You start out saying..._ "it was a hot topic as long as *they* felt *they* were on the right side of the argument, but all of a sudden it was pointless in discussion when the possibility that *they* might be wrong..."
> 
> ...


Use your biased opinion to figure it out. He and They know who I'm talking too.... Don't play retarded Now.. Just act like you Normally do 

It's all Good CJ, it's not like Grudge.. I want keep coming back for you.. Unless you call on Me. 


here, let me put Pac' away


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## Brazko (Oct 9, 2009)

See, All Better.. 

 'errbody


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## krustofskie (Oct 9, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> * A possible Jevohovah's witness knocking on your door isn't your problem.*
> *Look at what is happening in London.......coming to your neck of the woods soon.*
> *Rightfully gripe then.......and only then.*
> *No need to imagine hell if you wait too long.*


Have I missed something ??? Whats going on in London ?????


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## PadawanBater (Oct 9, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *LOL CJ.......who's talking national religion.....other than islam?*
> *I dig Buddhists.....they pose NO threat to my lifestyle WHATSOEVER......their beliefs----pure and simple.*
> *Do I follow the faith? Nope.*
> *Let's face reality folks......Christians are not a threat to your beliefs/lifestyle. Awaken to what IS.*


 
lol, try again buddy!

Islam is clearly to any rational thinking person who has taken a look at it's followers dangerous. Dangerous to the point of being examined to the core by every single non believer. Us in the west pretty much know that via propaganda from our governments. There's a lot of peaceful muslims, but there is also a lot of extremism in Islam. Christianity is different. It's like a spy. Those that can see through the front, those of us that are atheists, know why it's dangerous. You can't see it because you believe it, much like a peaceful muslim would argue for Islam... yet there you sit, believing it's this huge threat to your way of life... 

You can see it about Islam, I can see it about Christianity. A muslim can't see it about Islam because they believe Islam, you can't see it about Christianity because you belive Christianity. See how that works? 

Trust me, Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, Scientology, all of them are a threat to mankinds progress and future. 

The Christians like to forget about the centuries of bloodshed in the name of Jesus these days... Crusades ring a bell? Burning witches at the stake.. Dark ages.. 

You guys had your day too... Don't forget where you came from.


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## IAm5toned (Oct 10, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> lol, try again buddy!
> 
> Islam is clearly to any rational thinking person who has taken a look at it's followers dangerous. Dangerous to the point of being examined to the core by every single non believer. Us in the west pretty much know that via propaganda from our governments. There's a lot of peaceful muslims, but there is also a lot of extremism in Islam. Christianity is different. It's like a spy. Those that can see through the front, those of us that are atheists, know why it's dangerous. You can't see it because you believe it, much like a peaceful muslim would argue for Islam... yet there you sit, believing it's this huge threat to your way of life...
> 
> ...


And lets not forget the roughly 1000 years of repression of knowledge, the imprisonment of galileo, the inquisition, friday the 13th, the tithe (thats where you give a percentage of your earnings to the church, out of all of your earnings.. holding back is a sin) the holy catholic church is the single most wealthy entity out side of nation-states, and its the single largest property owner in the world... and its all tax free. And before you think im bashing, i will have you know i am a baptized roman catholic, i went to catholic school up untill jr high, and come from a devout irish catholic family.

And then theres the whole deep south bible belt... honestly, in my entire life, i have never seen such a large group of hypocrites gathered under one roof during some of the services i have had the unpleasant misfortune to witness..... the denomination is irrelevant... 

dont even get me started about scientology...makes me sick just thinking about it... recently i had the opportunity to work closely withthe church of scientology during its recent expansion into TN, me being the curious type, decided to do a little research... and after a few nights staring at the monitor heres the skinny:
i keep expecting to turn on the news one day to a report (keeping my fingers crossed on this one) where they all drink the koolaid... i mean shit, all they do is literally take every last penny they can extort from there members. it gets better... see they work n the premise that a 'donation' gets you the materials to get to the next level, however the materials are priced to the point of rediculous; BUT theres a loophole, they say its for you but in reality it is a financial mechanism designed to either bankrupt you or keep you in the church for life.. each packet of material you purchase gains you the 'knowledge' to advance to the next spiritual level... at the cost of tens of thousands of dollars per level, however this cost is 'defered' to members of the church; on the premise that if you decide to leave the church, the cost is no longer deferred, and the lump sum is now due in full. they will seek legal action and take everything you own.... because in order to become a member you must first sign a contract enabling the church to hold you liable for all materials used. its a fucking pyramid scam using religion as a pretense, people...open your eyes!

religion has, and always will be a form of mass population control. think about it... if your all busy debating religion than you dont have time to criticize the establishment do you? think of the hours youve wasted on this thread!

the roman emperor constantine was the first to really capitalize on this... literally switching state religions from roman paganism to early christianity, in the middle of a major war, not because of any major spiritual breakthrough, but because it was easier for him to sanction the religion than attempt to fight a revolt and a two front war at the same time... Once that sanction was made known... well you know the rest of the story. a council of nicea or 2 later and now we have an official bible, as approved by the emporer constatine. then king james gets his hands on it a thousand years later... and we have our bible, gospel written by the disciples of jesus christ... 

my ass.

the whole thing goes to show that people are dumber in numbers...

*shakes head sadly and walks away*

ps yeah im aware of my poor grammar, worse spelling, and improper usage of sentence structure. ask me if i give a shit


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## CrackerJax (Oct 10, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Use your biased opinion to figure it out. He and They know who I'm talking too.... Don't play retarded Now.. Just act like you Normally do
> 
> It's all Good CJ, it's not like Grudge.. I want keep coming back for you.. Unless you call on Me.
> 
> ...


it's just that you started out with "they, them and their", and finished with "he, him".

I couldn't figure out what or who you meant...


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> right wing christian fundamentalists are preventing my state from even considering legalization... tell me that doesnt affect my lifestyle


 *.....to smoke? LOL.*
*Look, I am a professed Christian. I smoke....and I live in "the"Bible belt of America.*
*Sure there are Christian organizations probably speaking against it, but you know what? Ask yourself this...what are YOU doing to stand up for YOUR rights?*
*Standing on the sidelines while others (like myself) put themselves right out there on the front line to fight for your rights will never earn you the right to gripe about it.*
*The whole problem with our society is that we allow ourselves to be lead LIKE SHEEP........yeap, I, as a Christian, just said that.*
*The government will pass or not pass that bill as that particular state deems fit.*
*Although I live in a conservative state, I KNOW there is a much larger percentage that IS for legalizing......they just won't get off their ass's and make it recognized.*
*"We" are the people. People forget this time and time and time again. *


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## CrackerJax (Oct 10, 2009)

babs, do you stand up on sunday and declare the church should help legalize weed?


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> lol, try again buddy!
> 
> Islam is clearly to any rational thinking person who has taken a look at it's followers dangerous. Dangerous to the point of being examined to the core by every single non believer. Us in the west pretty much know that via propaganda from our governments. There's a lot of peaceful muslims, but there is also a lot of extremism in Islam. Christianity is different. It's like a spy. Those that can see through the front, those of us that are atheists, know why it's dangerous. You can't see it because you believe it, much like a peaceful muslim would argue for Islam... yet there you sit, believing it's this huge threat to your way of life...
> 
> ...


*"You guys?" LOL........as if you know for a fact that not even a one of your ancestors was possibly a Christian. *
*Leave the dark ages where they are....in the PAST.*
*Rational thinkers, eh? OF COURSE islam is DANGEROUS.....and of course there are "peaceful" muslims. Understand that those muslims who are peaceful are also clueless to their own religion. (allah states in the quran they are hypocrites--not 'true' muslims) They rely HEAVILY on the imams to translate the quran to them. Muslims will tell you that in order to "get" the quran, you simply MUST know arabic.........BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
*I'm not going to take this in depth........there is NO comparing ANY religion to islam...........IMPOSSIBLE.*
*Despite what you believe about Christianity, Jesus Christ is HISTORY.......I don't care if you believe "in" Jesus or what you or others believe "about" the possible fallacies recorded. The fact is Jesus was GOOD. Mo ham mad was an evil despicable SOB. The teachings of that pig lead to the fastest growing religion on earth.*
*Islam prophecy is to RID of ALL others who do not/will not believe as they do. Over and OVER AND OVER, the quran teaches that the goal is to kill off society as we know it. In case you hadn't noticed, they are pretty damned determined to accomplish this too.*
*Look at Ahmadinejad. This joker should have been removed long ago. Yet, here he still sits to this day, proclaiming he will wipe Israel off the map. Let's not even mention what his wishes are for America. This IS MAINSTREAM MENTALITY IN ISLAM. "allah" demands they prove themselves not to be munafiq.......hypocrites to the religion. He ordains that they LIE for their cause. Jesus and mo ham mad are two total EXTREME OPPOSITES.*
*You know what? Americans don't know shit about what their 'cause' even is......they're too busy crying about Christians, LOL.........no, but seriously, it surpasses sad.......surpasses pathetic.*
*Islam, all by itself, IS EXTREME.....islam brings new meaning to EXTREME.*
Dangerous to the point of being examined to the core by every single non believer........*oh yes, and we are ALL doing that, right?*
*In order to even delve into the meaning of Islam, you had better have a much better knowledge of every other faith/religion. There's no way to embark upon learning about it any other way.*
*Christians today are not going to give you an option to either be their slave and subservient to them........while paying the jizya----or DIE.*
*Muslims will do this. Muslims ARE doing this. Muslims HAVE BEEN doing this for a LONG, LONG time. It's amazing that so many years AFTER 911 that the majority are still suckers about the facts.*
*Please don't ever attempt to compare Christians.....there just is no comparison. Sorry.*
*LOL @Christianity being a spy. You have the choice to ignore Christianity. You will not have a choice to ignore islam in the near future.....but by then, it will be too late.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> babs, do you stand up on sunday and declare the church should help legalize weed?


  *CJ, you do stay busy on this forum, don't ya?*
*I'm going to tell you just as it is. I rarely attend church. This is not to demean Christianity, but the numerous churchs scattered here, there and everywhere....just don't have it together.*
*Do I bust through church doors and demand I get the podium to preach about MJ being legalized? GAWD no CJ!!! Have I professed it as a good alternative to man's chemicals 'to' Christians.......OF COURSE. (btw, the majority of them agree)*
*CJ, you have to be kidding by asking me that....hahaha. You don't know me.*
*I'm actually kind of worried that I may end up on the news in the near future for being the advocate. (I don't like drawing that kind of attention to myself......it's controversial) Will I? Do I? YOU BET.*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 10, 2009)

I'm just saying.... in todays atmosphere, standing up publicly for weed can be mighty risky. Only those who can insulate themselves from the repercussions, or folks who have NOTHING to lose, have a chance of getting away with it.

Ask Tommy Chong.....


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I'm just saying.... in todays atmosphere, standing up publicly for weed can be mighty risky. Only those who can insulate themselves from the repercussions, or folks who have NOTHING to lose, have a chance of getting away with it.
> 
> Ask Tommy Chong.....


 *Trust me...I hear you on that note LOUD AND CLEAR.*
*I am SO outraged that I MUST "insulate" myself while attempting to be BOLD......that's not an easy task.*
*Being an advocate is not a crime, partaking is.*
*Put yourself in the light as one or the other, you have everything to lose.*
*The point I would like to clarify is that if even 1/4 of "the people" who DO wish to see it legalized would just do something......anything, we'd be harder to account for, know what I mean?*
*The reality is that MOST of us hide in the shadows, living in fear.*
*I refuse to live that way forever. It's all about balance.*
*I can choose to hide in my little corner of the world and accept the ridiculous laws imposed...."or" I could just bit by bit, gnaw away at the few who are unrightfully speaking for "the people."*
*I still can't get used to the fact that I live in a country whereas it's legal in states so near, yet a felony only miles away.*
*This is America?*


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## morgentaler (Oct 10, 2009)

*



"You guys?" LOL........as if you know for a fact that not even a one of your ancestors was possibly a Christian.

Click to expand...

I've yet to see any evidence that Christianity is a heritable genetic condition.

*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 10, 2009)

Heck, I was raised a Christian. The whole enchilada.....but my parents were never of the belief that the Bible was the actual "word" of G*D, much to their credit.

Once I became an adult, I really studied theology and found it was built on a cracked foundation.

It takes a certain discipline to see through the fog of religion and come out the other side into the light of real freedom, real bliss.


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> *I've yet to see any evidence that Christianity is a heritable genetic condition.*


 *..nor have I. *


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Heck, I was raised a Christian. The whole enchilada.....but my parents were never of the belief that the Bible was the actual "word" of G*D, much to their credit.
> 
> Once I became an adult, I really studied theology and found it was built on a cracked foundation.
> 
> It takes a certain discipline to see through the fog of religion and come out the other side into the light of real freedom, real bliss.


 *CJ....if that's what works for you, more power to you. I certainly don't think it my right to impose my personal beliefs on others. My motto has always been "Live and let live."---so long as you're not a devout muslim, LOL....seriously though---we're not spying on you.  At least, I'm not. *
*Let's just say I don't get that conspiracy that was thrown out. *
*....or the one where I supposedly said being a Christian was somehow genetic.....yikes.*
*Time to go back to the growing threads......sheesh.*
*People......chill.*


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## anhedonia (Oct 10, 2009)

I find it funny how christians are so quick to detest islam and call it evil. Yet they cant judge themselves. As if thier shit doesnt stink. Ever heard of sufism? Sufis are very peaceful and gentle people.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 10, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> I find it funny how christians are so quick to detest islam and call it evil. Yet they cant judge themselves. As if thier shit doesnt stink. Ever heard of sufism? Sufis are very peaceful and gentle people.




Yes, sufism is actually close to buddhism. Islam (sunni) is very taken up with geneology and the persona of islam, and can be compared to christians in their insistence of correctness in the DETAIL of Islam.... hence all the violence. Christians are the same way..... same problem.

Sufi is more about the mysticism of Islam and the direct personal touch with Mohammad.


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> I find it funny how christians are so quick to detest islam and call it evil. Yet they cant judge themselves. As if thier shit doesnt stink. Ever heard of sufism? Sufis are very peaceful and gentle people.


*...and the first growing thread I go to.......they're fighting, over AIR of all things. *
*I'm back. *
*Anhedonia, make no mistake, ALL shit stinks.*
*Yes, the Sufis are known to be much more "peaceful."*
*Are you aware why there are two broken sects of Islam?*
*Regardless, they adhere to the very same teachings......mo, the mad man.*
*Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll kill eachother off (before the kafir) with what the two sects are so torn over.*
*"Maybe."*
*But the "holy" quran says they will come together for the common purpose in the end.*
*What is that you ask?*
*Go read.*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 10, 2009)

One sect believes in the details of the qaran (sunni) and the other does not (sufi).

An eerie connection to Christianity.


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Yes, sufism is actually close to buddhism. Islam (sunni) is very taken up with geneology and the persona of islam, and can be compared to christians in their insistence of correctness in the DETAIL of Islam.... hence all the violence. Christians are the same way..... same problem.
> 
> Sufi is more about the mysticism of Islam and the direct personal touch with Mohammad.


* WHERE SO MANY AMERICANS LOSE SIGHT......*
*Sufi is more about the mysticism of Islam and the direct personal touch with Mohammad.*

*Dear God.........please, PLEASE learn EXPLICITLY WHAT THAT ENTAILS.*

*Again, too many keep attempting to compare Christ (Christianity) to Mohammdeans (islam).....there SIMPLY is NO comparison.*

*Yikes CJ.........not even with Buddhism.*
*Did Buddha rape and kill? Did Buddha see himself as doing the work of God by killing a little girls father and offering, no giving her no option, but to offer the MAJESTIC FAVOR of being his one of numerous wives?.......while poor little Aisha (the BABY of the brides) is his favorite?*
*Mo was a PSYCHOPATH.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> I find it funny how christians are so quick to detest islam and call it evil. Yet they cant judge themselves. As if thier shit doesnt stink. Ever heard of sufism? Sufis are very peaceful and gentle people.


 *HINT: Abu Bakr*
*Come back and share all about the PEACE. *
*Oh, and let's try to stay in the here and now......no need to back to the crusades. Let's stay on topic. *
*Yeap, those Christians are dangerous I tell ya, LMAO.*


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## anhedonia (Oct 10, 2009)

I had a friend who was muslim and was into sufism. This was back before meds when I was psychotic and I thought I was the reincarnation of all these spiritual masters, yet I was a fool and was really in HELL. Anyway, a long story short he explained the only way that you can go to hell in islam is to know Allah as God via, prayer, meditation or any personal realization, and then not convert to Islam. During that time I felt connected to all religions and spiritual traditions. 

LOL, but after being on medications all those thoughts that consumed me that I was obsessed by went away, pretty funny.


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> One sect believes in the details of the qaran (sunni) and the other does not (sufi).
> 
> An eerie connection to Christianity.


* It goes SO much deeper than that CJ.....SO MUCH.*
*Again, nothing to do with Christianity. Look, feel free to mock Christianity all day long.......my feelings won't be wounded.*
*But when you even attempt to compare the two, it's just RIDICULOUS.*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 10, 2009)

I mock all religion which takes itself seriously.....

It's all in ur head....


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## anhedonia (Oct 10, 2009)

Well like you said, there is no way to validate ones belief as true or not true, I guess you can only know with a greater or lesser degree. So you want to convince me thier is no attaining a higher degree of spiritual insight through the sufi tradition? And then you have to say something vile about Gautama Buddha. Christians prove to me that we really are lost in time and space. The gratuitous absurdity. like they say, you have to have good karma to understand buddhist teachings and progress towards liberation.


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> I had a friend who was muslim and was into sufism. This was back before meds when I was psychotic and I thought I was the reincarnation of all these spiritual masters, yet I was a fool and was really in HELL. Anyway, a long story short he explained the only way that you can go to hell in islam is to know Allah as God via, prayer, meditation or any personal realization, and then not convert to Islam. During that time I felt connected to all religions and spiritual traditions.
> 
> LOL, but after being on medications all those thoughts that consumed me that I was obsessed by went away, pretty funny.


 *Your buddy conveniently left out that all who choose to leave Islam, all that CHOOSE to abandon the beliefs (non-muslims included) will burn in allah's eternal hellfire.*
*Allah embeds in their hearts that Christians and Jews (and even non-believers in general) are "but friends to oneanother" and should be KILLED...for the purpose of islam---so that makes murder ordained via the madman Mo/allah.*
*Did he share with you their beliefs as to the "levels of heaven?" Allah is a nice guy......he allows you to have your flesh burned several times over to get there.*
*No worries for those who just don't believe in anything bigger than themselves though. *
*Ack, today's Saturday.*
*I don't want to pull out the quran. I could pull out so many numerous surahs that otherwise disprove this theory that islam is even remotely peaceful (whether suffi, shiite or sunni) The truth is that islam, as a WHOLE is hellbound and determined to create a world of nothing other than muslims......but I'll have to pass.*
*It's up to the individual how much truth they really wish to embark upon. Very obviously, most in this country are content with believing what's convenient......the lie Bush threw out there when stating, "islam is a peaceful religion."*
*We're talking about people who are in this very day and age cutting off womens breasts, chopping peoples heads off...the list goes on--- if they don't denounce Christ or if they don't just simply convert to islam........really peaceful.*
*But, let's by all means keep comparing Christ's teachings with that of mo's...makes SO much sense.*
*:::cringe::::*


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## PadawanBater (Oct 10, 2009)

*



"You guys?" LOL........as if you know for a fact that not even a one of your ancestors was possibly a Christian.

Click to expand...

*


> *Leave the dark ages where they are....in the PAST.*
> *Rational thinkers, eh? OF COURSE islam is DANGEROUS.....and of course there are "peaceful" muslims. Understand that those muslims who are peaceful are also clueless to their own religion. (allah states in the quran they are hypocrites--not 'true' muslims) They rely HEAVILY on the imams to translate the quran to them. Muslims will tell you that in order to "get" the quran, you simply MUST know arabic.........BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> *I'm not going to take this in depth........there is NO comparing ANY religion to islam...........IMPOSSIBLE.*
> *Despite what you believe about Christianity, Jesus Christ is HISTORY.......I don't care if you believe "in" Jesus or what you or others believe "about" the possible fallacies recorded. The fact is Jesus was GOOD. Mo ham mad was an evil despicable SOB. The teachings of that pig lead to the fastest growing religion on earth.*
> ...


..My ancestors religions are irrelevant. I was just pointing out how you seem to have forgotten the very bloody past of Christianity. 

I bet you'd like to forget about "the past" wouldn't you? Well, unfortunately for you, people realize how important it is NOT TO FORGET THE PAST. By remembering the crazy shit that went down throughout our history, we can better avoid such things in the future. 

Are you seriously retarded? This has to be the clearest example of the mental disorders believers have if I've ever seen one!! 

*Rational thinkers, eh? OF COURSE islam is DANGEROUS.....and of course there are "peaceful" muslims. Understand that those muslims who are peaceful are also clueless to their own religion. (allah states in the quran they are hypocrites--not 'true' muslims) They rely HEAVILY on the imams to translate the quran to them. Muslims will tell you that in order to "get" the quran, you simply MUST know arabic.........BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*You obviously aren't familiar with the teachings of Jesus Christ as depicted by the bible, Old Testament and New Testament.. oh the OT doesn't apply to today? Why's that again? ...Because if it did you'd be in PRISON. That's why. A fanatical Christian would undoubtably say you are "clueless to your own religion". The amazing thing is you can sit there and judge people for the obvious faults in their belief, but then when the scope is turned around on yourself, it's like you put the blindfold on or something. No Muslim I've ever spoken to has told me I must know arabic to read the Quaran. Just like the Bible, I'm pretty certain the translations or languages a book claiming to know all things while simultaneously being wrong about dozens of established scientific achievements... yeah, prolly doesn't actually know all the things it's claiming to know... but that's just me.. The language barrier would be the last fuckin' thing I'd be worrying about. 

Islam and Christianity are *exactly *the same in my mind. Both are equally as dangerous to the human mind, human progression and the future of mankind on this planet.

You don't understand Islam at all, clearly. I'd bet you've never spoken to a Muslim about these issues, and if you did, the other guy probably walked off really heated because you can't concede when you're wrong about something, I can already tell that's how your going to be when you come back with some defense backing Christianity then condemning Islam (when both do exactly the same shit...). You're probably the kind of person who likes to tell people what they believe, then when they correct you, you don't acknowledge it and continue believing in your mutated form of Islam that's deadly and dangerous to everyone who accepts it. Think about it Babs, ask yourself this, if it was so dangerous and deadly and all the Muslims were killers and people who wanted to end society as we know it... then why in the fuck would there be over a BILLION people practicing it, and why would it be the #2 religion after Christianity? Your logic makes zero sense.

I wasn't aware that you met Jesus, but OK...

I feel threatened by Christianity in one form or another on a daily basis. Like I said, which I don't think you really understood, Christianity is like a spy - in that it doesn't LOOK dangerous to any outside observer, you don't understand how you are being attacked till it's too late and you're already so deep in it, believing it, corroding away your mind, closing the box and shutting the door. Islam is different, islam is clearly dangerous to any outside observer. You can take one look around and see a Muslim blowing himself up in the name of Islam in almost any Islamic country. Personally I'd say Christianity is a bigger threat because of this. It's disguised as something you need and sold as something good, people don't see the immediate affects it has on them. 

You can compare guns and knives all you want, but in the end, they both kill people pretty well.


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## anhedonia (Oct 10, 2009)

Have you given thought that you most likely would be proclaiming islam had you been born in the middle east? Or Buddhism if you were born in Sri Lanka or Tibet? But your an American and believe in god and jesus. Just as we would speak a completely different language. Thats pretty simple, right?


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> *..My ancestors religions are irrelevant. I was just pointing out how you seem to have forgotten the very bloody past of Christianity. *
> 
> *I bet you'd like to forget about "the past" wouldn't you? Well, unfortunately for you, people realize how important it is NOT TO FORGET THE PAST. By remembering the crazy shit that went down throughout our history, we can better avoid such things in the future. *
> 
> ...


*
:::woot::::I've only just begun to read and have to comment, LOL.
Think all day long they are one in the same....still won't make it so.
Your ancestors religion has nothing to do with anything.....that "was" the point.
Please feel free to find one single thing Christ taught that was unruly or evil....you claim to be able to do so. By all means...go for it. You can't.

The second sentence that comes from you in response is what I KNEW you would go on a tangent about. The question is WHY? Why harp on a past, that BTW....is not indicative of the present. That is where we are living, yes? I realize so many have a need to cling to the past so as to keep themselves and others around them repressed, but to do so only blindsides the REALITY "at hand."
You don't understand Islam at all, clearly. I'd bet you've never spoken to a Muslim about these issues, and if you did, the other guy probably walked off really heated because you can't concede when you're wrong about something, I can already tell that's how your going to be when you come back with some defense backing Christianity then condemning Islam (when both do exactly the same shit...). You're probably the kind of person who likes to tell people what they believe, then when they correct you, you don't acknowledge it and continue believing in your mutated form of Islam that's deadly and dangerous to everyone who accepts it.
WOAHHHHH, let me tell you something here. I have "spoken" IN DEPTH "to" muslims COUNTLESS times. Can you honestly say the same?
It's interesting how you use the "past" of Christianity only to reinforce the "peace" of islam. 
You go on a superfluous tangent to sell people on the premise of their peaceful beliefs.......via the crusades. Talk about irrelavent. 
Are you seriously retarded?<---What's that?...other than improper use of questioning.
Perhaps you don't acknowledge your need to be corrected in life?
I'll give you credit where it's due though.......muslims have walked away EXTREMELLLLLLLLLLLLLY frustrated with conversing with me AND HEATED......BECAUSE THEY CANNOT CONCEDE TO BEING UNKNOWLEDEABLE ABOUT THEIR OWN BOOK. Most, yes MOST muslims in America have LITTLE, VERY LITTLE knowledge regarding the quran. Don't EVER attempt to discuss facts with them. They WILL NOT acknowledge it...they will RUN AWAY..."heated."
I never have a problem in admitting when I am wrong....you can view some of my posts amongst these numerous threads for further proof.
In short Panda, the quran is very simply written.......SO much to the point of UTTER BOREDOM. It repeats the same lines SO MANY TIMES.
"for allah is most merciful"

Yo Panda......go talk to a muslim. Make that one-liner the one answer you seek. They WILL walk away EXTREMELY heated if you push that one simple question. They KNOW it is IMPOSSIBLE to find any proof via the quran that he actually is. NOTHING.....they will NEVER EVER be able to provide you with even ONE SINGLE SURAH.
Yeah Panda.......I know nothing. I never speak to any muslims. Oh.....and I'm retarded. 
Gotcha.*


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## PadawanBater (Oct 10, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> Have you given thought that you most likely would be proclaiming islam had you been born in the middle east? Or Buddhism if you were born in Sri Lanka or Tibet? But your an American and believe in god and jesus. Just as we would speak a completely different language. Thats pretty simple, right?


 
Apparently that point eludes Babs...


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> Have you given thought that you most likely would be proclaiming islam had you been born in the middle east? Or Buddhism if you were born in Sri Lanka or Tibet? But your an American and believe in god and jesus. Just as we would speak a completely different language. Thats pretty simple, right?


 *I've thought about it many times. You have no idea.*
*Christianity is not forced on me.*
*I also don't have to memorize the Bible and chant it like some robot either.*
*I have choices. Chalk one up for Christianity!!!*


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> Apparently that point eludes Babs...


 *Really?*
*You wouldn't want to concede to being wrong, now would you? *


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## anhedonia (Oct 10, 2009)

I like the zen saying, " you bring as much suffering into the world when you take offence as when it is given"....Pretty cool huh. Everyone can learn from that one.


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

*Sorry, LOL, had to do it*...). You're probably the kind of person who likes to tell people what they believe


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> Well like you said, there is no way to validate ones belief as true or not true, I guess you can only know with a greater or lesser degree. So you want to convince me thier is no attaining a higher degree of spiritual insight through the sufi tradition? And then you have to say something vile about Gautama Buddha. Christians prove to me that we really are lost in time and space. The gratuitous absurdity. like they say, you have to have good karma to understand buddhist teachings and progress towards liberation.


 *Who said anything vile about Buddha? *


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## anhedonia (Oct 10, 2009)

Sorry, misread.


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## We Love 1 (Oct 10, 2009)

God made everything. 

Jesus loves you.


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## PadawanBater (Oct 10, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *:::woot::::I've only just begun to read and have to comment, LOL.*
> *Think all day long they are one in the same....still won't make it so.*
> *Your ancestors religion has nothing to do with anything.....that "was" the point.*
> *Please feel free to find one single thing Christ taught that was unruly or evil....you claim to be able to do so. By all means...go for it. You can't.*
> ...



lmfao... I know my name is a little unusual, but "Panda"?? 

anyway... 

I don't think you quite understand why I feel like there's no difference between Christianity and Islam. I don't think I'm explaining it right. You get why I believe Islam is dangerous, we both agree on that, but you miss my reasons for Christianity, I think it's because you are a self-proclaimed Christian. As I said earlier, an outside observer can see these things clearly, just like you can with them with Islam. I'm sure you can grasp that. 

My Christian anscestors were just as irrational and illogical as I think believers are today. My dad is a Christian, same goes for his beliefs. There is nothing wrong with saying that. The point, like I said before, was because you refuse to acknowledge the Christian past, and you justify your accusation that Islam is a violent religion by saying it's violent *now.* Well, throughout most of our history, Christianity was spread by the sword, believe or die. It's become more secular the past hundred years, a little less violent in correlation with scientific advancements (your welcome), but I guess that's just a coincidence huh... Christianity's peaceful? Tell it to the millions of dead Muslims and non believers and atheists and intellectuals and blasphemers and witches and scientists that have been murdered throughout history in the name of spreading the good word of Christianity. Tell it to the millions of minds that are poisoned before they have a chance to learn correctly. 

"Unruly" "Evil" - fuck your subjective Christian meaning, you wouldn't agree with my subjective meaning anyway because mine's not derived from your imaginary friend, so what's the point of that question? 

Well, that's the problem with always looking at the present as the most important period, you tend to forget things about the past and repeat them, just like the GOP. History is very important. 

When the hell did I ever say Islam was peaceful? Please, point it out. I called it a GUN in comparison to a KNIFE in my earlier post, making it MORE DANGEROUS *on the surface*, as I've said before. BOTH are dangerous, BOTH should be COMPLETELY ELIMINATED. Islam is not peaceful, not at all. Turn on the TV for proof. Our government just loves exploiting those crazy Muslims... 

I'd like to know how such a peaceful thing like Christianity turned into something as violent as the Crusades, fill me in. How do such "peaceful premises" end in such ways?

MOTHERFUCKINGROFL!!!!!! You win. I Concede, I forfeit. If you are telling a devout Muslim they are wrong in their own damn belief and being completely serious about it like you claim you are, then you must be the champion of the universe!! You know all things! You know Islam better than people who might have studied it their whole lives! I bow down to all that is Babs!

If I spoke to another Muslim, the same thing would happen, sure they'd walk away heated and frustrated but DEFINITELY for different reasons than if you were the one talking to them. And I can guarantee you there wouldn't be enough tension between us to keep from sparking up, we'd remain friendly. I can't say the same for the conclusion to an interaction between my Muslim friend and yourself. You're sitting there insisting someones wrong about their very own way of life, and you can't even look at it from the other persons perspective, to see that it would be exactly the same if that Muslim was telling you you know absolutely nothing about Christianity, and you're entire way of life is based on a lie...


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## tea tree (Oct 10, 2009)

just hear to flame! lol.

(here) rofl +reps


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## CrackerJax (Oct 10, 2009)

Can u hear flame?


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> lmfao... I know my name is a little unusual, but "Panda"??
> 
> anyway...
> 
> ...


* OK, so I see it's not Panda..oops.*
*How many times do I need to say it? You canNOT compare the two..even when attempting to do so with the crusades.*
*Do recall......I'm not responsible for my ancestors actions/beliefs either, ok?*
*The crusades didn't just stem from nowhere either. Since day one of islams existence, there has always been war with Christians.*
*You keep misssing the boat here. It is islamic DOCTRINE that encourages ALL muslims to either join the fight or at minimum ...SUPPORT it. Any muslim who knows their religion KNOWS it their duty to do so.*
*There is NO choice in islam. You MUST support the theory that in the end, it's all muslims--no one else. Do you think they believe it will come about peacefully?*
*Really now, think again.*
*Again...I have spoken to MANY DEVOUT muslims. Have you?'*
*And I don't hate muslims. The only time in which there is "tension" is when faced with acknowledging ANY other surah from the quran OTHER THAN "allah is most merciful" ......FROM the kafir.*
*Obviously, you have no idea where I am coming from---because you haven't been there.*
*But rather than attempt to learn anything, you would prefer to remain clueless and continue to make this an argument about the DANGERS of all of us insane Christians. LMAO........come on, get real.*
*You obviously have not even spent a tiny fraction of the time that I have speaking to muslims and studying it in depth.*
*There's no need to even tell a muslim that they are wrong. Ask them that one simple question.....they know and it infuriates them. So many times I've been embarassed for them.*
*The musllims I have spoken to DON'T and would never even DREAM of "sparking up."*
*You see the difference between what muslims you and I are learning from?*
*Yes, I can safely say that I know A WHOLE HELL OF A LOT more about islam than you....and I'd of just loved for you to see some of the conversations between us. You might have learned something. *
*You base your life on a lie......that the two are even remotely comprable.*
*But as you said earlier.......how can millions be SO wrong? There just must be something to islam because it is the fastest growing religion, right?*
*Cancer grows quickly too my friend....and if you ignore it long enough, it will do you in. *
*Remember the saying, "if all your friends jumped off the Brooklyn bridge, would you do that too?"*
*I wish that was all there was to worry about.....a mass suicide of allah believers, but that's not islams GOAL.*
*Stay on topic.*
*Christianity isn't the spy in your life. You're obviously oblivious to what is.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Can u hear flame?


 *:laughing: flame?*
*I'm not really sure what that means, but I'm going to chill out on this fine Saturday.*
*Islam has stolen enough valuable time from my life in the "past" already.*
*What it offers my future, I will be weary of, while others remain in their own little pretend reality that Christians are SKEERY...correction, SKEERIER *


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

You're sitting there insisting someones wrong about their very own way of life, and you can't even look at it from the other persons perspective, to see that it would be exactly the same if that Muslim was telling you you know absolutely nothing about Christianity, and you're entire way of life is based on a lie... 
*There you go again....*
*Isn't that what you are attempting to do here with me? "So"....it's ok for you to do so with me and other "Christians." Right?*

*But you end that with that "my" life is based on a lie.*
*You see, the difference is.....I won't kill ya for saying that. *
*Just so you don't get confused, they heavily argue about the Bible......are you kidding?*
*If copyrights were being enforced, the quran would have been burned long ago.*
*The quran is nothing more than a re-write....via God.....allah, aka as the shayton.*
*I'm betting I lost you there.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

*PEACE.......HAVE A WONDERFUL and BLESSED day!!!!*
*Doesn't that just make you want to ????*
*The AUDACITY of us wicked Christians. *
*Seriously......*


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## IAm5toned (Oct 10, 2009)

i like soup.


that is all


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

*LOOOL, HAHAHAHA.......thanks for that.*


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## IAm5toned (Oct 10, 2009)

sometimes a little laugh goes a long way


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## We Love 1 (Oct 10, 2009)

If God didn't create the Big Bang than who (or what) did?

Also how did all the water get on earth?

How come the moon doesn't have water?

How many alien races are there in Our "know" universe?

Have there been other big bangs? They could be taking place all the time. 

Just some questions I have. 

Jesus loves you.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 10, 2009)

Try cracking a science book open and find out sometime.


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## morgentaler (Oct 10, 2009)

We Love 1 said:


> If God didn't create the Big Bang than who (or what) did?


We don't know what created the big bang yet. This is not an explanation for "God".
You could have easily asked "If Britney Spears didn't create the Big Bang, then who (or what) did?"

Using god to fill in unknowns isn't an answer. It's intellectual laziness.

If people accepted god as the answer for everything, you would have been asking these questions on a stone tablet in the Middle East.



> Also how did all the water get on earth?


http://zebu.uoregon.edu/internet/l2.html

Some of it was part of the matter that originally formed the planet. The rest arrived with comet impacts and other ice bearing space debris.




> How come the moon doesn't have water?


It does.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/24sep_moonwater.htm
You need to keep up on your science.
If you're going to use questions to debate, you should already know the answers to those questions.
As for why there are no oceans on the moon, and only small amounts of water, the moon lacks the mass to retain an atmosphere via gravity. So any water on the surface would evaporate and off-gas into space.



> How many alien races are there in Our "know" universe?


An unknown quantity. The fact that we can see billions of light years across the universe doesn't mean that we have the scale of technology to detect them. Additionally, due to the dimensions and time scale, you could have 50,000 races evolve from simple nomadic cultures to our current technology in the known universe and still not overlap in a way that we or they would ever detect each other.




> Have there been other big bangs? They could be taking place all the time.


Yes, it's possible that Big Bangs are cyclical, and also possible that they occur in other regions which bleed over into our universe.



> Jesus loves you.


Apparently so does Teddy Ruxpin. But I don't think his feelings are genuine.


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## morgentaler (Oct 10, 2009)

Now it's my turn to ask some questions:

1) What is the evidence for the existence of God?

2) What is the *historical* evidence for the existence of Jesus? 

3a1) Do you consider the bible to be the inerrant and literal word of god?
If yes, skip to 4.

3a2) Do you consider the bible to be non-literal and symbolic in nature?
If yes, skip t 5.

4) Why are there so many versions of the inerrant and literal word of god?

5) If the bible is non-literal and symbolic, is it also possible that God is symbolic in nature?

6a) Do you believe in Adam and Eve as literal beings?

6b) Do you believe that people are born with sin?

7) If you do not believe in Adam and Eve, but you do believe in people being born with sin, where did that sin come from, if not from Eve's actions in the garden?

I await your answers. Seeing as many people claim the bible has all the answers, I await enlightenment.


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## morgentaler (Oct 10, 2009)

> The quran is nothing more than a re-write....via God.....allah, aka as the shayton.


*
The word is "Shetan". It is arabic for devil.
The bible is nothing more than a re-write of the Torah, via committe, aka The Council of Nicea.

Thank you, drive through.
*


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> *The word is "Shetan". It is arabic for devil.*
> *The bible is nothing more than a re-write of the Torah, via committe, aka The Council of Nicea.*
> 
> *Thank you, drive through.*


*Nope, it's SHAYTAN......next.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Now it's my turn to ask some questions:
> 
> 1) What is the evidence for the existence of God?
> 
> ...


*I'm just going to go ahead and skip right to number 7......Eve tempted Adam and Eve was tempted by the SHAYTAN itself. Look to your avatar for proof of man's stupidity regarding their view of a woman.*


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## anhedonia (Oct 10, 2009)

what the hell, thats beauty. Did adam and eve FUCK before the fall of man? I should make a series of erotic art with adam and eve in ecstatic passionate positions before they discovered they were naked and became ashamed and needed a leaf. and believe it or not but thats why we wear clothes to this day.


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

*LOL, you illustrate my point "beautifully."*


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## morgentaler (Oct 10, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *I'm just going to go ahead and skip right to number 7......Eve tempted Adam and Eve was tempted by the SHAYTAN itself. Look to your avatar for proof of man's stupidity regarding their view of a woman.*


So you believe in the literal Adam and Eve?
How did they happen to end up with the same endogenous retrovirus as some primates?


Do you also believe in the talking snake and unicorns?

And Jesus rode a velociraptor?


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## morgentaler (Oct 10, 2009)

I find it highly amusing that many of the religious who think atheists are wrong will ask all kinds of questions expecting us to answer them, but pose questions to them and they'll just avoid them.


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> So you believe in the literal Adam and Eve?
> How did they happen to end up with the same endogenous retrovirus as some primates?
> 
> 
> ...


 *No, no......and no.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 10, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> I find it highly amusing that many of the religious who think atheists are wrong will ask all kinds of questions expecting us to answer them, but pose questions to them and they'll just avoid them.


* ....and so there, take that, LOL.*
*More amusing is the notion that athiests are more intelligent "creatures."*
*An athiest will spend MUCH more time defying probablility with argument rather than looking within.*
*Please don't ask for an elaboration. *


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## Brazko (Oct 10, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> * ....and so there, take that, LOL.*
> *More amusing is the notion that athiests are more intelligent "creatures."*
> *An athiest will spend MUCH more time defying probablility with argument rather than looking within.*
> *Please don't ask for an elaboration. *


That's their Handicap, atleast the way I've come to identify it, Just Numb..

But in all fairness, The Religious Handicap is Logic and Reason.., They say all they need is Faith, but the Faith still resides in their God given Ability to use Logic and REason, Have Faith in It  

Man, I'm so Happy , bout to Light up for the first time in 4 days and 5 nights, it's been an eternity, but well Worth It


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## morgentaler (Oct 10, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *No, no......and no.*


So if you believe Adam and Eve aren't real, and neither is the talking snake, why would you believe that God, whose only evidence is that same book, is real?


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## Juan Abongheet (Oct 10, 2009)

Isn't it safe to say that what we have here is a "revealed religion" meaning that God spoke to a man and that man revealed what God said to him and him only to others... Thus we have faith in the man, not God because God didn't speak to us all, only the one man.
I am a deist- if you believe in God as I do then you believe God exists, but not that one man or even men have the right idea- only how you come to God and what he/she says to you is relevant, not what the 'book' says...


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## anhedonia (Oct 10, 2009)

Does this make any sense?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9BBy3aidRE Its a fun video none the less.


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## IAm5toned (Oct 11, 2009)

entertaining, but yet just another attempt to rationalize humanity's intellegence and self awareness.
heres my take-
brain = hardware
self awareness/intellegence, whatever you want to call it = software

one cannot exist without the other. its like ying and yang.
all biological creatures must be self aware, to some point or the other, some more than most. a man would be more self aware than a mouse, his intellegence proves it. but the mouse still eats when its hungry, still recoils from pain, and still solves relatively complex problems, still recalls memories and acts on them.

you could say that the man has a better hard drive, and a faster processor in his brain than the mouse, so to speak, so he is capable of much higher functions than the mouse, at a much faster rate. 

but just because man has these things does not make him superior to any other creature in self awareness, it just makes him more capable, more efficient. the man doesnt have to spend his every waking moment of his entire life searching for food or defending territory, because he uses his advanced intellegence to do these things with relative ease, freeing up time to think, to reflect upon his actions on his immediate environment. this in turn leads to more efficient behavior, which leads to more time to think, which leads to more efficient behavior....its a cylcle that never ends in a normally functioning human being. its why you get smarter as you age... things that didnt make sense when you were a youth become clear as an adult.

its like comparing your desktop pc (the mouse) to a craig supercomputer (the man). they still perform the same functions, operate on the same principals but the supercomputer will beat the pc each and every single time.. because it is more efficient in its operation by a few orders of magnitude. but they both still need software and hardware to operate. so do the brains of man and the mouse, ones just quicker than the other.. we (humans) can formulate and process a thought in microseconds that would take the poor mouse's tiny brain a lifetime to even consider to begin to develop the complex thought patterns we humans take for granted.


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## krustofskie (Oct 11, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> * A possible Jevohovah's witness knocking on your door isn't your problem.*
> *Look at what is happening in London.......coming to your neck of the woods soon.*
> *Rightfully gripe then.......and only then.*
> *No need to imagine hell if you wait too long.*


I still want to know whats supposed to be happening in London??????


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## IAm5toned (Oct 11, 2009)

me too.

a former coworker of mine was from london... and during the recent presidential election was quick to point out to anybody with a set of ears how if obama was elected every major city in america will undergo the fate of london. when asked what the coworker meant by that statement, all she could say was that london is just terrible these days.

i took it to mean that she has never seen a major us city.


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## OregonMeds (Oct 11, 2009)

Juan Abongheet said:


> only how you come to God and what he/she says to you is relevant, not what the 'book' says...


If you think you hear god talking back you 
you need to know that hearing voices of any kind is not normal and no laughing matter. That's a real genuine serious mental problem and you need to seek help immediately.

Moses had the same problem but they didn't understand schitzophrenia back then.

Go read about it some more:
http://ehealthforum.com/health/topic42970.html


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## Sure Shot (Oct 11, 2009)

This is a little personal but, I shit you not.
Several weeks ago my brother had what I'll call, an episode.
He attacked my neighbor and nearly stabbed him with a shower towel rod that broke off during their scuffle.
Had I not shown up in time it would have ended badly.
After I took the rod from him, I asked why he was attacking our neighbor + friend.
He said that God told him to confront him!
I was so shocked that my own brother had said that.
I looked straight at him to see if he was lying, and I'm pretty good at that.
He did not look like the same person I know and love.
His face was pale and his eyes had a peculiar unfocused look to them.
But, I could tell that he absolutely believed what he was saying!

I just wish he knew that the voices in his head are of his own manifestation.

You know I find it kinda ironic that the only place I have to talk to intellectuals is on a cannabis forum. 

All of this happened shortly after my brother stopped smoking weed.
And I remember him once trying to spark a conversation about the link between Schizophrenia and cannabis use.
He didn't tell me he was hearing voices himself.
But looking back I'm positive he was hearing voices for at least a few weeks before the incident mention above.
That's why he all the sudden stopped smoking, and was researching a possible cause.

I just wish he didn't come to the conclusion that it was a fucking deity.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 11, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear of ur situation SS... I'm glad you were there for him. He needs help and some guidance, but I realize that must be a difficult situation for him, and YOU.


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## OregonMeds (Oct 11, 2009)

Damn that had to be heartbreaking...

Did your brother do more drugs than just weed? 

No there is no relationship between smoking weed and schitzophrenia, other than maybe weed kept him calm enough to rationalize the voices in his head before acting on them or kept him busy by being stuck to the couch.

Damn, I'm sorry to say he will probably never be the same if other drugs weren't the cause. Might as well face that fact now.
There are meds that can control it but they are so strong he won't quite be what he used to be and with such other side effects he may simply flat refuse them.

I hope he did do a lot of other drugs like meth, if he did time will turn him around if he stays sober. My cousin became a meth addict for a while and completely lost it and was loony as can be. In just months after he quit he was right back to normal acting and then a year later fully normal feeling as in normal emotions and able to handle stresses of normal life like work situations and lifes other stresses.

Talk to him and see if you can find out more about how long he's heard voices... Maybe weed is the solution if it managed to hide his symptoms for years after he started to hear them. He will always probably hear them, but weed may actually be enough to calm him and keep him from acting on it. You need to know for sure about other drugs. You need to search where he lives not take his word for anything. Search every inch... Look for everything not just drugs and see what you can learn. Check his computer, look for browser history. You can even see the dates in the history when he started to look up his problems... ( and for Internet drugs, etc...)

By searching you may learn shitloads he would never want to tell you.


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## morgentaler (Oct 11, 2009)

It's just the manifestation.
His voice is coming from within, and there's not a lot of options in that regard.

If it was coming from the TV it could be David Caruso talking to him with every tilt of his sunglasses. 

Is he being checked out?


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## morgentaler (Oct 11, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> No there is no relationship between smoking weed and schitzophrenia.


Actually, there are:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19640690?ordinalpos=8&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

You can scan PubMed and find various issues about schizophrenia and depression.

That's not to say it will cause both, but there's evidence that it interacts with the underlying condition.


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## Babs34 (Oct 11, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> me too.
> 
> a former coworker of mine was from london... and during the recent presidential election was quick to point out to anybody with a set of ears how if obama was elected every major city in america will undergo the fate of london. when asked what the coworker meant by that statement, all she could say was that london is just terrible these days.
> 
> i took it to mean that she has never seen a major us city.


 Chat11.com: Hamtramck Michigan Islamic Call To Prayer

*I'm thinking she meant something more along these lines.*
*I can't even imagine tolerating this islamic chanting 5 times a day. It's a sad day in America when you feel forced to move from a mini version of Saudi Arabia in your own "USA" hometown.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 11, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> I still want to know whats supposed to be happening in London??????


 *Sorry, I wasn't trying to ignore you.*
*Truth be known, my insides literally churn every time I think upon this topic..all of it.*
*This only begins to scratch the surface.*
Thousands of Muslims Gather in London to Demand a Caliphate : The British National Party

Apathetic-USA.com Intro Movie


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## Sure Shot (Oct 11, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> Damn that had to be heartbreaking...
> 
> Did your brother do more drugs than just weed?


Thanks for the support guys.

I pondered the same question hoping it was a easy answer.
But it just doesn't fit.
You see my brother was a meth addict about 16 years ago.
But after being imprisoned for a 7 year term for stabbing someone a dozen times. He's been clean. 
Trust me he came out a different man then the boy who went in.
He's held down a few decent jobs and has now been a diesel mechanic for the last 5 years.But his marriage hit the rocks a couple years ago.
That's where he started blaming marijuana for his problems, not her.
So he gave up pot and they were back together for a few months,........... before she cheated again.
He became noticeably depressed after this. That's when I moved my family in to help with bills and life.
He started smoking pot again after a few months here.
All seemed to have returned to normal with the guy.(Honestly)
Then she tried to come back again.
I told him it was a bad idea but he didn't listen to his little bro.
He slowly stopped smoking again and his attitude changed again.

Of course, they didn't work out and she was gone again.
That's when he came to the revelation that he shouldn't grow pot.
I told him there was no way I was stopping,
especially not after we were both legalized and the police said my plants were beautiful after a failed raid.
(Police officer said the tip came from a phone call.[His wife, I'm sure]).

The incident with the neighbor happened a few months after that.
When the police arrived at said incident, they too were concerned he was on drugs.
I wish is was as simple as that.

He has since moved out to another family members home.
She found Jesus in a twelve step program, and now goes to church every Sunday.

Thanks for listening/reading I needed to bounce that off someone.

Make the best of your chaos.


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## Babs34 (Oct 11, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> So if you believe Adam and Eve aren't real, and neither is the talking snake, why would you believe that God, whose only evidence is that same book, is real?


*LOL, you are begging to argue religion. I won't do that in an attempt to prove/disprove the existence of God.*
*I did not say I did not believe Adam and Eve were not real......"or" specifically the talking snake.*
*No, I do not take the Bible as the LITERAL word of God, but I do accept the words of Christ to be so.*
*You mentioned the NT as being a re-write of the OT.....fair enough. I don't care to break that one down. I really HATE arguing and I particularly loathe discussing religion/God with most atheists. *
*Your goal is to show me how intellectually challenged I am because I do not perceive and rationalize as you do. Your god is science.....kudos to you. *
*You and I (or any other atheist for that matter) going back and forth with redundant rhetoric makes no more sense than discussing rational law with a muslim.*
*It's senseless, at least to me. For you, it is entertainment. *
*Questioning is good. If you don't ask questions, you don't learn. Science has its place of significance as well.*
*But when you make it rule to demand a "proof" to every single odd occurrence that takes place, you just won't end up with it to hold into your hand.....or pass a simple link online to represent your "logical findings." *
*If every little thing in life must be PROVEN to you, than I can only imagine with this persona that it is difficult to hang onto a significant other......or at least peacefully.*
*Let me ask you......if your wife/girlfriend comes home late tonight and tells you that she just had an encounter with aliens driving on the way home........what's your response?*
*Now, we're taking into consideration that she's not a total nutcase. *
*Personally, I've never been encountered by the third kind while driving, but does that mean that because I haven't .......obviously others could not have possibly of had it happen to them?*
*I don't believe "in" aliens.....but, I do believe in their possible existence. In fact, I think it more probable that they do. But, maybe not.*
*This is where atheists and I lose each other.*
*You are so taken in with the advancement of Science having answered all, if not most, of your 'rational' questioning.*
*I'm not.*


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## anhedonia (Oct 11, 2009)

The cannabinoid CBD is supposed to have anti-psychotic effects. I take a pretty hefty dose of anti-psychotics before bed every night and I can tell you my life was turned around completely after taking meds for about a year. Thats how long it took before I started feeling better. I may not be the same person I was before my schizoaffective but I certainly have a better quality life than what I imagined. And if it werent for my meds, I wouldnt be able to smoke. I didnt smoke for 5 years because of the horrible effects that would come with taking just one hit.


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## tip top toker (Oct 11, 2009)

babs said:


> *No, I do not take the Bible as the LITERAL word of God, but I do accept the words of Christ to be so.*


*

which also comes out of the bible.... how does that work?
*


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## Babs34 (Oct 11, 2009)

tip top toker said:


> which also comes out of the bible.... how does that work?
> [/B]


*Tip, it's as simple as this.*
*I view the OT as history documented at that time by the Jewish prophets. The NT is predicted in the OT btw)*
*Without getting all "Christiany"....*
*I believe that God sent down Christ, which was himself---with the "Knowledge" of God, yet in "the flesh."*
*I believe God did this to show us many things that are key to life.....and that He did so as to serve as an example.*
*Now, arghhhh...don't ask me to elaborate. *
*I'll end up with one of two scenarios....appearing the evangelical, or opening doors for atheists to mock.*


----------



## Nocturn3 (Oct 11, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Sorry, I wasn't trying to ignore you.*
> *Truth be known, my insides literally churn every time I think upon this topic..all of it.*
> *This only begins to scratch the surface.*
> Thousands of Muslims Gather in London to Demand a Caliphate : The British National Party
> ...


I suggest that you refrain from using anything released by the BNP as evidence of reality. Do you even know who they are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party


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## anhedonia (Oct 11, 2009)

Anyone see the last temptation of christ? Good movie. Willam Defoe plays christ, harvey kytell judas, david bowie pilate and peter gabriel did the soundtrack collaborating with several world music artists and really made an excellent alblum incedentally titled "Passion" which came out in 1989 some people think it has something to do with the mel gibson movie. Anyway, great film, and can be entertaining to all people no matter what your beliefs may be.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 11, 2009)

I'm not into gore movies.


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## anhedonia (Oct 11, 2009)

Gore? How so? Martin Scorcese directed this film.


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## Brazko (Oct 11, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> Gore? How so? Martin Scorcese directed this film.


 
Is that movie where Christ doesn't get crucified, goes on to marry Mary, and have kids, live a normal life and in the end Wakes Up? If So, I seen it, yeah I thought it was a pretty cool showing..


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## morgentaler (Oct 11, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Your goal is to show me how intellectually challenged I am because I do not perceive and rationalize as you do.*


No, I don't think you're intellectually challenged. I *do* think you're rationally challenged, but this is the product of childhood indoctrination.

Science is not a god. Science is a process of understanding the world around you, and a methodology for adapting to it.

Religion doesn't seek to understand the world. It makes up stories, teaches children to believe them, and asks the adults to support the clergy financially.

Science works towards curing disease.
Religion says disease is punishment for sin, or a test of faith, etc. etc.

How many people who questioned the religious viewpoint had to die before scientists were free to advance knowledge without threat of imminent death. (This threat still exists in some places but at least it's no longer the norm).

If you were to say "I'm an agnostic deist. I think there is probably a greater power out there, but I can't be sure what it is." there would be no argument with you. There may indeed be a creative force out there, and if there is I'm sure many scientists would like to know what it is and how it came to be.

Dogmatic faith is dangerous. If you subvert the rational mind for dogma, you make it susceptible to the machinations of those who use it as a tool of politics or a weapon of war. 

When people stop questioning you get the Crusades, The Holocaust, and the Russian purge.

When the religious doctrine comes from books as vile as the Old and New Testaments, any rational thinking person is in the right to fear and despise such dogma. Because, like the abusive spouse, it has no concept of justice, no empathy, and tells you how much it loves you but, if you ever resist or consider walking away, it will destroy you.

So embrace your deistic inclinations, and marvel at the universe it created. But turn your back on God and his religion, for they are the poisonous get of man.


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## Babs34 (Oct 11, 2009)

Nocturn3 said:


> I suggest that you refrain from using anything released by the BNP as evidence of reality. Do you even know who they are?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party


 *LOL, ok.....so now this is an issue because you don't trust it's source....so it simply MUST NOT be true....HAHAHAAHA.*
*Google is but a fingertip away...tap on.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 11, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> Anyone see the last temptation of christ? Good movie. Willam Defoe plays christ, harvey kytell judas, david bowie pilate and peter gabriel did the soundtrack collaborating with several world music artists and really made an excellent alblum incedentally titled "Passion" which came out in 1989 some people think it has something to do with the mel gibson movie. Anyway, great film, and can be entertaining to all people no matter what your beliefs may be.


 *Nice way to change the topic. *
*Never seen it.....maybe I'll go rent it today.*


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## Brazko (Oct 11, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> Anyone see the last temptation of christ? Good movie. Willam Defoe plays christ, harvey kytell judas, david bowie pilate and peter gabriel did the soundtrack collaborating with several world music artists and really made an excellent alblum incedentally titled "Passion" which came out in 1989 some people think it has something to do with the mel gibson movie. Anyway, great film, and can be entertaining to all people no matter what your beliefs may be.


 
Also, if the said scenario movie was actually one in the Same, I would like to suggest reading Anne Rice's "Memnoch the Devil" vampire chronicles

it gives an awesome alternative view of the relationship between God, Jesus, the Devil, man's evolution, Adam/Eve, etc. etc..

Of course, it's Fictional...


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## morgentaler (Oct 11, 2009)

What about this version of Jesus's life?

[youtube]itWoHzL6n-w [/youtube]


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## anhedonia (Oct 11, 2009)

Nice alternative.


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## IAm5toned (Oct 11, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> Chat11.com: Hamtramck Michigan Islamic Call To Prayer
> 
> *I'm thinking she meant something more along these lines.*
> *I can't even imagine tolerating this islamic chanting 5 times a day. It's a sad day in America when you feel forced to move from a mini version of Saudi Arabia in your own "USA" hometown.*


And its an even sadder day in america when religious tolerance is abandoned....


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## Brazko (Oct 11, 2009)

What about it? looked pretty cheezy to me  The special effects weren't to shabby tho'...considering the budget..




morgentaler said:


> What about this version of Jesus's life?
> 
> [youtube]itWoHzL6n-w [/youtube]


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## Brazko (Oct 11, 2009)

What about this alternative version..Wait!! It's not an Alternative 


[youtube]qd9zVsWm4oA[/youtube]


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## anhedonia (Oct 11, 2009)

Seriously, I dont believe in any god whatso ever. But some of these people really make me think about that south park episode where richard dawkins screwed garrison. And in the future thieres 2 different athiest factions that fight over a completely stupid reason and they look just as foolish as the religious people. I would never go around saying Im an athiest. Just as I dont say Im buddhist. I dont take myself that seriously. Moer like a spiritual being having an earthly experience. I wish I had the restraint and dilligence it takes, maby when Im old and wize I'll take up meditation. Smoking pot gives me time for contemplation and reflection though, but really you should be practicing without it. I would like to read more about mixing pot with meditation. Like sadhus.


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## OregonMeds (Oct 11, 2009)

Sure Shot said:


> Thanks for the support guys.
> 
> I pondered the same question hoping it was a easy answer.
> But it just doesn't fit.
> ...


So you confirm he was a meth addict and stabbed someone years ago but didn't say a thing about searching his shit. He just experienced a trauma that could make any addict fall off the bandwagon and his previous addiction was in fact to a drug that can cause crazyness...

You are so sure he didn't go back to meth because why? Because he denies it? Maybe he doesn't want little brother to know he went back to it.

A person can hide things from you while living right in front of you for years and you wouldn't know until they finally lost control...

Good luck man.


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## Brazko (Oct 11, 2009)

That's kinda the conclusion I begin to come too... All, the negativity he was going through may have caused a relapse.. Putting him right back in the situation he wasn't able to handle before...., Man, it's so hard for me sometimes to comment of these types of post, I feel for the person going through it, and even more for the person who are close to them, because I know they really care and Love that person.., but sometimes that's what makes it so hard for them to see, because emotional attachment causes blindness..

Your brothers and sisters on here are keeping you in mind and wishing the best for your family....


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## Sure Shot (Oct 11, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> So you confirm he was a meth addict and stabbed someone years ago but didn't say a thing about searching his shit. He just experienced a trauma that could make any addict fall off the bandwagon and his previous addiction was in fact to a drug that can cause crazyness...
> 
> You are so sure he didn't go back to meth because why? Because he denies it? Maybe he doesn't want little brother to know he went back to it.
> 
> ...


Maybe your right Oregen, I try to look at everything from outside my perspective.
But maybe i can't in this case


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## IAm5toned (Oct 11, 2009)

I have come to the conclusion that I am a reincarnated lesbian living in a mans body.

I intend to make the best of it.


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## Brazko (Oct 11, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> I have come to the conclusion that I am a reincarnated lesbian living in a mans body.
> 
> I intend to make the best of it.


So that's what I Am, Guess thats' why I enjoy watching 2 girls as Well.... 

A genius You Are


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## Brazko (Oct 11, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> Seriously, I dont believe in any god whatso ever. But some of these people really make me think about that south park episode where richard dawkins screwed garrison. And in the future thieres 2 different athiest factions that fight over a completely stupid reason and they look just as foolish as the religious people. I would never go around saying Im an athiest. Just as I dont say Im buddhist. I dont take myself that seriously. Moer like a spiritual being having an earthly experience. I wish I had the restraint and dilligence it takes, maby when Im old and wize I'll take up meditation. Smoking pot gives me time for contemplation and reflection though, but really you should be practicing without it. I would like to read more about mixing pot with meditation. Like sadhus.


Yes, trying to quiet the ever chattering Mind is quite difficult to almost impossible, Smoking when meditating is like using a BullHorn 

I prefer to think of it as Weight Training


----------



## krustofskie (Oct 11, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Sorry, I wasn't trying to ignore you.*
> *Truth be known, my insides literally churn every time I think upon this topic..all of it.*
> *This only begins to scratch the surface.*
> Thousands of Muslims Gather in London to Demand a Caliphate : The British National Party
> ...


I can tell you right now that there is no problem in London. A gathering of thousands in London is nothing, shit more than 2 million people visit football stadiums every weekend in London alone, whats a few thousand Muslims in comparison. You have chosen a very bad source for your evidence on this. The BNP (British National Party) is a racist party, founded by members from the outlawed NF (National Front), these guys say Hitler was a good guy and his rule would have done the world good.
You will find that the BNP's view's would be very very biased.
Muslim law will never take over in the UK, too many non-believers in all faiths and we don't have fuck all control over laws here anymore, its the poxy European Union that dictates nowadays and I don't know the numbers but to hazard a guess I would say that the Muslim influence in Brussels is next to none.


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## Babs34 (Oct 11, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> I can tell you right now that there is no problem in London. A gathering of thousands in London is nothing, shit more than 2 million people visit football stadiums every weekend in London alone, whats a few thousand Muslims in comparison. You have chosen a very bad source for your evidence on this. The BNP (British National Party) is a racist party, founded by members from the outlawed NF (National Front), these guys say Hitler was a good guy and his rule would have done the world good.
> You will find that the BNP's view's would be very very biased.
> Muslim law will never take over in the UK, too many non-believers in all faiths and we don't have fuck all control over laws here anymore, its the poxy European Union that dictates nowadays and I don't know the numbers but to hazard a guess I would say that the Muslim influence in Brussels is next to none.


 *Very lame...sorry.*
*You do know how to google? "So sorry" that sight isn't your preference.....but honestly, don't be lazy.*
*What kind of comparison is a football game gathering to jihad?*
*You obviously read none of the statistics....NONE.*

_*The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.....* Albert Einstein _

_..in this case, "see nothing"_
_*Ignorance truly is bliss.*_


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## Babs34 (Oct 11, 2009)

*Perhaps this is more up your alley.*

Top Anglican Seeks a Role for Islamic Law in Britain - New York Times


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## Babs34 (Oct 11, 2009)

I would say that the Muslim influence in Brussels is next to none. 
__________________

SHARIA WATCH UK » DHIMMI BRUSSELS ACCOMODATING MUSLIMS.


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## krustofskie (Oct 11, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Perhaps this is more up your alley.*
> 
> Top Anglican Seeks a Role for Islamic Law in Britain - New York Times


This was in the news over a year ago and was soon brushed aside as we know it would not happen, the church has no political power to change law in England. It could not happen as it would contravene European law, the power in England has left the people of the country more and more through the years and once the Lisbon treaty gets 'finalised' then Brussels will control most decisions. My reference to football gatherings was because the Racist political site you decided to use as your original source wanted to make a deal of there being thousands at a gathering, my point that a gathering of thousands in London is not a big gathering. Also any 'Facts and figures' from the BNP are always warped to fit in with their racist ideals.
Any people should be allowed to gather in such a way as long as they are not inciting hatred. If they were inciting hatred, they would be arrested, plain and simple.


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## Babs34 (Oct 11, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Religion predates the modern governments. While Constantine did use the religion to subjugate the masses, there hasn't really been a consistent connection of government.
> If Germany and Japan & Italy had come out on top after WW2, and did indeed bring about a new world order, for sure the Vatican would be trying to survive in that climate and do whatever it takes. There is proof enough already of the church willingness to cut deals with Hitler.
> 
> I'd say it's the other way around. Religion has been using govts.


 YouTube - Hitler and the Mufti Of Jerusalem/Nazi-Muslim Connection


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## Babs34 (Oct 11, 2009)

Any people should be allowed to gather in such a way as long *as they are not inciting hatred. If they were inciting hatred, they would be arrested, plain and simple. *
*Really now? *
*Keep reading.*


----------



## morgentaler (Oct 11, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> If the sun disappeared Earth would instantly continue outward on its current vector. (A most entertaining episode of The Universe). The sudden change in gravitational tidal forces would make it a very, very unpleasant place for us to be (understatement).


Neat I found something new to correct something else I'd learned recently that I mentioned in the quoted post.

I'm watching a documentary that dismisses the scenario presented in the episode of The Universe, where they claimed that gravity would disappear instantly if the sun vanishised.

The documentary series The Elegant Universe (episode 1), on Nova refers to that particular scenario as being based on Newtonian physics and that Einstein's Relativity must enforce the light speed limitation on it as well. So the change in gravity if the sun were to vanish (not collapse) would travel outward in a wave across spacetime.

Always cool to learn new things.

I found those episodes as torrents a while back so they're probably still kicking around out there.


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## krustofskie (Oct 11, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> Any people should be allowed to gather in such a way as long *as they are not inciting hatred. If they were inciting hatred, they would be arrested, plain and simple. *
> *Really now? *
> *Keep reading.*


Keep reading. Keep reading what ? The racist propaganda that you sourced from. I will not listen to what comes from the BNP or other racist organisations. Find a reputable source that fairly reported on the congregation you have a problem with and I will take it seriously.


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## Babs34 (Oct 11, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> Keep reading. Keep reading what ? The racist propaganda that you sourced from. I will not listen to what comes from the BNP or other racist organisations. Find a reputable source that fairly reported on the congregation you have a problem with and I will take it seriously.


* "Duh".......that's all folks. *


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## Babs34 (Oct 11, 2009)

*Quick observation I just now made....that's how you spell in UK.......organisations VS. organizations...HMMM.....very interesting......*


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## krustofskie (Oct 11, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Quick observation I just now made....that's how you spell in UK.......organisations VS. organizations...HMMM.....very interesting......*


Yes thats right. No spelling mistakes. I keep getting people have digs at me for spelling but I am using the queens English. English from England, what a novel idea.


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## krustofskie (Oct 11, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> * "Duh".......that's all folks. *


?????????????????


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## Stoney McFried (Oct 12, 2009)

What can I say?It depends on who's telling the story whether or not Muhammed was such a terrible guy.From what I've read, he's no worse than any other military or religious leader throughout history.
However,Christianity is in no way better than Islam,because it has condoned slavery,rape, misogyny and genocide in the name of God as well.In the beginning,only the clergy was allowed to read the bible and interpret it to the congregation,they kept it in Latin.Sometime around the 1500's,I believe, it was translated for the common man.And BOY was the clergy pissed.
The church used to threaten with fire and brimstone...when that stopped being so effective,they tried the loving fuzzy Jesus.
Fact is, you burn in hell in Christianity, too.If you sin,if you are not baptized, if you leave the faith. Neither religion is better than the other.Christianity just happens to be what we have to deal with on a daily basis around here. And if the church could get away with burning people still, believe me, they would.


Babs34 said:


> *"You guys?" LOL........as if you know for a fact that not even a one of your ancestors was possibly a Christian. *
> *Leave the dark ages where they are....in the PAST.*
> *Rational thinkers, eh? OF COURSE islam is DANGEROUS.....and of course there are "peaceful" muslims. Understand that those muslims who are peaceful are also clueless to their own religion. (allah states in the quran they are hypocrites--not 'true' muslims) They rely HEAVILY on the imams to translate the quran to them. Muslims will tell you that in order to "get" the quran, you simply MUST know arabic.........BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> *I'm not going to take this in depth........there is NO comparing ANY religion to islam...........IMPOSSIBLE.*
> ...


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## CrackerJax (Oct 12, 2009)

Who's threatened by Islam? Christians.


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## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Who's threatened by Islam? Christians.


 *Nope CJ, EVERYONE.....or at least they should feel/know so.*
*Our country is running around with blindfolds on.*
*Most people have NO idea just how dangerous it is that we continue to open our doors in offering them the freedom to take advantage of our constitution.*
*Give it five years CJ.....you won't be able to help but notice by then.*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> ?????????????????


*BTW, sharia law has ALREADY been adopted in Britain.*
*Nope, islam's not a threat.......not at all. *


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 12, 2009)

Most moslems are peace and law abiding. Don't judge the religion by the wing nuts....they are a very small minority.

So you wish to filter immigration by religion? Think about what you are saying.....


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## IAm5toned (Oct 12, 2009)

they said the same thing about the communists in the 50's
they were wrong then too...
what your proposing is macarthyism.

*McCarthyism* is the politically motivated practice of making accusations of disloyalty, subversion, or treason without proper regard for evidence.

its like saying a grey cat ate my stash.
therefore, all grey cats must be viewed as a threat.
grey cats should not be allowed in society because they are a threat.
they are evil!
there are grey cats all over the world, there must be an agenda... the grey cats want to eat everyones stash
we should go to war against the grey cats, now, before they eat anyone elses stash.


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## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

Stoney McFried said:


> What can I say?It depends on who's telling the story whether or not Muhammed was such a terrible guy.From what I've read, he's no worse than any other military or religious leader throughout history.
> However,Christianity is in no way better than Islam,because it has condoned slavery,rape, misogyny and genocide in the name of God as well.In the beginning,only the clergy was allowed to read the bible and interpret it to the congregation,they kept it in Latin.Sometime around the 1500's,I believe, it was translated for the common man.And BOY was the clergy pissed.
> The church used to threaten with fire and brimstone...when that stopped being so effective,they tried the loving fuzzy Jesus.
> Fact is, you burn in hell in Christianity, too.If you sin,if you are not baptized, if you leave the faith. Neither religion is better than the other.Christianity just happens to be what we have to deal with on a daily basis around here. And if the church could get away with burning people still, believe me, they would.


 *Hey Stoney. I'm trying to keep this simple. I'm aware of Chritianity's evil doings in the past.*
*The entire time I've only spoken in terms of comparing Christ to Mohammad. Let's just pretend that you believe in Christ.......just for the sake of argument, LOL.*
*There is simply NO comparing the two......as individuals. *
*Christians are supposed to take to heart the words of Christ as muslims are to Mohammad.*
*The doctrine between the two are as opposite as opposite could possibly be.*
*If the church were still burning people.....I wouldn't be a Christian. You just can't find anywhere via the words of Christ to do so.........on the contrary.*
*BUT, you can find ALL SORTS of terrroristic orders to do that and more via the words of Mohammad in the book of hadiths.*
*Again, I'm focusing on simply that.*
*Mo, as compared to the teachings of Christ. The adjective "peace" will never come to mind when following Mohammad.*
*People just don't realize how much so UNTIL they actually read the quran/hadiths. *


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 12, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Hey Stoney. I'm trying to keep this simple. I'm aware of Chritianity's evil doings in the past.*
> *The entire time I've only spoken in terms of comparing Christ to Mohammad. Let's just pretend that you believe in Christ.......just for the sake of argument, LOL.*
> *There is simply NO comparing the two......as individuals. *
> *Christians are supposed to take to heart the words of Christ as muslims are to Mohammad.*
> ...


Have you read the old testament?


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## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> they said the same thing about the communists in the 50's
> they were wrong then too...
> what your proposing is macarthyism.
> 
> ...


 *It's not that simple.....wish it were.*
*10 percent of extreme muslims worldwide on their jihad mission is NO LAUGHING JOKE. Recall, 1 out of 4 people in this WORLD ARE muslims.*
*Factor in that they are growing at an astronomical rate AND that they are demanding and/or incorporating their lifestyle/laws into dhimmi land.*
*Just think about it.*
*Tell me now.......where do you suppose this will lead?*
*Do you not understand that the "peaceful muslim" that you see WILL support ISLAMIZING the WORLD.*
*It is their DUTY.........and ordained via JIHAD.*
*And don't ever let a muslim tell you it means "personal struggle" either.*
*I own a quran....sent to me BY CAIR.*
*They don't hold back on what it means.*
*Note too that al taqiya (don't recall proper spelling) is ordained by allah TOO....LYING for the cause of islam's growth.....or about it.*


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## IAm5toned (Oct 12, 2009)

its only complicated because your making it that way.........


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## CrackerJax (Oct 12, 2009)

Well, the way the USA works is, if enough moslems come to the usa or enough usa citizens convert to moslem to make it the dominant religion in USA society.... SO BE IT!!!

The US constitution was not set up to make Christianity dominant.


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## IAm5toned (Oct 12, 2009)

that is the beauty of the constitution. seperation of church and state.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 12, 2009)

The state stays out of the church.

The church however, is trying to constantly inject itself into the state.


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## morgentaler (Oct 12, 2009)

Let's just be glad that most Christians aren't secure enough in their belief in heaven to blow themselves up and take out the secular government.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 12, 2009)

They haven't felt threatened..... yet. I think that is a forgone conclusion... if the Christian church felt real pressure..... the violence would be justified....

People are ppl.


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## IAm5toned (Oct 12, 2009)

i understand the validity of your point, morgentaler.
maybes its just because i just burnt one but i tried to imagine what it would be like if christians were as devout as the extremist muslims.
i got a good laugh, because what came to mind was this:
can you imagine the church bulliten boards- Wed Night- Bombing For Jesus! Bring a friend, drinks and snacks will be served.


----------



## PadawanBater (Oct 12, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Hey Stoney. I'm trying to keep this simple. I'm aware of Chritianity's evil doings in the past.*
> *The entire time I've only spoken in terms of comparing Christ to Mohammad. Let's just pretend that you believe in Christ.......just for the sake of argument, LOL.*
> *There is simply NO comparing the two......as individuals. *
> *Christians are supposed to take to heart the words of Christ as muslims are to Mohammad.*
> ...


 
You sit there and dudge Islam while without ever accepting the exact same accusations about Christianity from the atheist. 

Do I have to go gather up dozens of passages directly from the Bible about how God or Jesus said, did or commanded other people to do terrible things? You keep asking for it, I know where to find it, so do you really want to see it, or are you just saying you want to see it, regardless of if it exists or not because you believe it doesn't because you've (assumingly) only read the Bible with your Christian blinders on and missed it the first time around.

Or are you going to be just like a typical fundie? I post the evidence, right there in black and white, then you dismiss it as somehow "justified" or good because it was God or Jesus who was doing it... 

Give me a fuckin' break Babs...

"Islam is terrible, look at all the terrible stuff Muslims do, they're ordered from their God to kill everyone whose not Muslim!"

"Christianity is terrible, they bomb abortion clinics and murder drs., they're ordered from their God to spread the good word of Christ and dehumanize anyone who doesn't buy into it, it poisons minds and frankly, makes people stupid" 

I wouldn't let a believer take care of a pet... I think my pet could probably get along just fine without em...


----------



## Stoney McFried (Oct 12, 2009)

Well...here are some quotes from 'gentle' Jesus.
_"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a mans enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it."_ (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)

_" *49* I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! *50* But I have a baptism* to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! *51* Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; *52* for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. *53* They will be divided, father* against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. (Luke12:49-53)_

[Jesus] made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 
John 2:15 







​And this is pretty interesting.
*Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?*

Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran? Is there a way to objectively answer such a question? 
Well, it wouldn't be easy. But it is possible to compare the amount of cruelty and violence in the two books. Here is a summary of the highlighted verses in the SAB and SAQ. 

Number of Cruel or Violent Passages Bible 842 Quran 333 
So the Bible has more than twice as many cruel or violent passages as does the Quran. But the Bible is a much bigger book. How do they compare when size is taken into account? 

Violence and Cruelty Total verses Percent Bible 842 31102 2.71 Quran 333 6236 5.34 
When expressed as a percentage of cruel or violent verses (at least as marked in the SAB/Q), the Quran has about twice that of the Bible. (5.34 vs. 2.71%)* 
Of course this analysis does not consider the extent of the cruelty in the marked passages. And that is an important consideration. Is Numbers 31:14-18, for example, more cruel than Quran 5:34? That is something that each person must decide. 
A good argument could be made that either book is the most violent and cruel book ever written. The award would go to one or the other, for neither has any close competitors. It is frightening to think that more than half of the world's population believes in one or the other. 



http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/bible_quran.html



Babs34 said:


> *Hey Stoney. I'm trying to keep this simple. I'm aware of Chritianity's evil doings in the past.*
> *The entire time I've only spoken in terms of comparing Christ to Mohammad. Let's just pretend that you believe in Christ.......just for the sake of argument, LOL.*
> *There is simply NO comparing the two......as individuals. *
> *Christians are supposed to take to heart the words of Christ as muslims are to Mohammad.*
> ...


----------



## krustofskie (Oct 12, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *BTW, sharia law has ALREADY been adopted in Britain.*
> *Nope, islam's not a threat.......not at all. *


No it has not. There are cases of Sharia courts within the Muslim communities, but these have no sway over legal matters. Only within the confines of their own communities does sharia law operate, to a very small extent as it would not be allowed to contradict the law of the land and if the persons involved wished they would not have to abide by the Sharia courts decisions, which may lead them to be shunned by their own community, but would have no legal ramifications and it would not be legally recognised in a real court of law. The law of the land prevails, not small communities.


----------



## PadawanBater (Oct 12, 2009)

Not to mention if you think something like Sharia Law could be passed in an American court system, you're fuckin' dreaming pal.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> You sit there and dudge Islam while without ever accepting the exact same accusations about Christianity from the atheist.
> 
> Do I have to go gather up dozens of passages directly from the Bible about how God or Jesus said, did or commanded other people to do terrible things? You keep asking for it, I know where to find it, so do you really want to see it, or are you just saying you want to see it, regardless of if it exists or not because you believe it doesn't because you've (assumingly) only read the Bible with your Christian blinders on and missed it the first time around.
> 
> ...


 *Look, I've tried to be nice PandaRAT, but enough with your BS......stifle it......or show your proof of Christ speaking such CRAP. .....Enough with the stupidity.*
*YOU CANNOT COMPARE THE TWO.........DEAL WITH THE "facts" ....oh brilliant atheist, LOL. The only threads I've ever seen you post on you are acting like a madman...CHILL OUT!!!*
*I'm not trying to take you to Christ, just to open your damn blind eyes......but you have eyes CLOSED.*
*You are so determined to hate Christians, hate Christ......hate the GOODNESS of His teachings.......so be it. You are just plain HATEFUL......period.*
*This ALL started because YOU said that Christians were SCARIER than muslims.*
*It's dhimmis like you that will bring this country down.*

*"Christianity is terrible, they bomb abortion clinics and murder drs., they're ordered from their God to spread the good word of Christ and dehumanize anyone who doesn't buy into it, it poisons minds and frankly, makes people stupid" 

Yeah "p"......QOUTE THOSE VICIOUS WORDS OF CHRIST WHEREAS HE TELLS HIS FOLLOWERS TO KILL IN HIS NAME.........good luck. For the record, no such thing.....it's all about PROBABILITY.......but you wouldn't know about that. 
*


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## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*Christ DID NOT order to KILL............Mohammad DID.*
*Deal with the facts jack. *
*You sound more and more muslim as you post.*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> that is the beauty of the constitution. seperation of church and state.


 *.....not when they are the majority. Re-think that.*
*It's not a debate....The End.*


----------



## fried at 420 (Oct 12, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Christ DID NOT order to KILL............Mohammad DID.*
> *Deal with the facts jack. *
> *You sound more and more muslim as you post.*


 racist fuck lol


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 12, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *.....not when they are the majority. Re-think that.*
> *It's not a debate....The End.*



but there not the majority.

case reopened


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## CrackerJax (Oct 12, 2009)

I wouldn't mind trading the brand of Islam in Morocco for the Christianity of the USA. 

I've seen both up close and personal.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Most moslems are peace and law abiding. Don't judge the religion by the wing nuts....they are a very small minority.
> 
> So you wish to filter immigration by religion? Think about what you are saying.....


 *Why do you keep missing the true message of Islam CJ? Could it be because you have never read the quran/hadiths?*

*Come on CJ.......I've given you much more credit in the intelligence dept. than most.*
*Look, read it......get back to me and say the same. *


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I wouldn't mind trading the brand of Islam in Morocco for the Christianity of the USA.
> 
> I've seen both up close and personal.


You NEVER know it VERY personally CJ, UNTIL you HEAVILY embark upon conversation actually regarding Islam on a PERSONAL level with them.....don't take my word, find out for yourself. And I do mean IN DEPTH.

And for the rest of you atheists who choose to continue to challenge the Bible........don't waste your time with the OT with me..........I DON'T SEE IT AS THE WORD OF GOD.........HELLO, WAKE UP.
Seek an argument elsewhere.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

fried at 420 said:


> racist fuck lol


 Yeah that makes me REALLY racist.becaue I CHOOSE words from a GOOD person VS an evil fk........yeah, fk you too.......and quit drinking if that's what it does to you.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> but there not the majority.
> 
> case reopened


AGAINNNNNNNNNNN, did you read the STATISTICS EARLIER QOUTED?

WTH????????????? I thought atheists were supposed to be geniuses, LOL.

Do I really need to hold your hand?
I've given you what you need....enough.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Let's just be glad that most Christians aren't secure enough in their belief in heaven to blow themselves up and take out the secular government.


 ...*Ignorance overtime here---no wonder you don't get it....no LOL there.*
*So, to be TRULY vigilent about your faith, you must be prepared to blow yourself up?*
*That was the point I attempted to make.......NO ONE got it.......THAT'S REALLY HARD TO IMAGINE, let alone know as FACTUAL.*
*This has surpassed pathetic.*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

fried at 420 said:


> racist fuck lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by *Babs34*  
_*Christ DID NOT order to KILL............Mohammad DID.*
_

racist fuck lol 
__________________
_*"*__*When you smoke the Herb,It reveals you to yourself*_"

*This DESERVES A REPEAT.*
*People like this should not even smoke.*
*Christ says DO NOT KILL. *
*Mohammad teaches VILE acts that muslims MUST perform to please allah VIA THE TEACHINGS OF THE MADMAN........AND "I" AM A RACIST FUCK?*
*DUDE, YOU NEED MEDS.........FAST.*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*When you have all read both books......and studied for even 1/4 the time I have as well as dealt with them one on one on the personal level that I have.......get back to me.*
*Until then, stifle what you nothing about.*


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 12, 2009)

```
Country/Region  [IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/sort_none.gif[/IMG] Muslim population
(2009 est.)  [IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/sort_none.gif[/IMG] Muslim percentage (%) of total
population  [IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/sort_none.gif[/IMG] Percentage (%) of World Muslim
population  [IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/sort_none.gif[/IMG]   Afghanistan 28,072,000 99.7 1.8   Albania 2,522,000 79.9 0.2   Algeria 34,199,000 98.0 2.2   Angola 190,000 1 0   Argentina 784,000 1.9 0.1   Armenia 1,000 0 0   Australia 365,000 1.7 0   Austria 353,000 4.2 0   Azerbaijan 8,765,000 99.2 0.6   Bahrain 642,000 81.2 0   Bangladesh 145,312,000 89.6 9.3   Belarus 19,000 0 0   Belgium 281,000 3 0   Belize 1,400 0.1 0   Benin 2,182,000 24.4 0.1   Bhutan 7,000 1.0 0   Bolivia 2,000 0 0   Bosnia-Herzegovina 1,522,000 40 0.1   Botswana 8,000 0.4 0   Brazil 191,000 0.1 0   Brunei 269,000 67.2 0   Bulgaria 920,000 12.2 0.1   Burkina Faso 9,292,000 59.0 0.6   Burundi 180,000 2 0   Cambodia 236,000 1.6 0   Cameroon 3,498,000 17.9 0.2   Canada 657,000 2.0 0   Central African Republic 395,000 8.9 0   Chad 6,257,000 55.8 0.4   Chile 4,000 0 0   China 21,667,000 1.6 1.4   Colombia 14,000 0 0   Comoros 664,000 98.3 0   Costa Rica - 0 0   Congo 943,000 1.4 0.1   Croatia 18,000 0 0   Cuba 9,000 0.1 0   Cyprus 198,000 22.7 0   Czech Republic 1,000 0 0   Denmark 88,000 2 0   Djibouti 838,000 96.9 0.1   Dominican Republic 2,000 0 0   East Timor 43,000 3.8 0   Ecuador 2,000 0 0   Ecuador 2,000 0 0   Egypt 78,513,000 94.6 5.0   El Salvador 2,000 0 0   Eritrea 1,854,000 36.5 0.1   Estonia 2,000 0.1 0   Ethiopia 28,063,000 33.9 1.8   Fiji 53,000 6.3 0   Finland 24,000 0.5 0   France 3,554,000 6 0.2   Gabon 140,000 9.5 0.1   Gambia 1,625,000 95 0.1   Georgia 423,000 9.9 0   Germany 4,026,000 5 0.3   Ghana 3,787,000 15.9 0.2   Greece 310,000 3 0   Grenada - 0.3 0   Guatemala 1,000 0 0   Guinea 8,502,000 84.4 0.5   Guinea-Bissau 680,000 42.2 0   Guyana 55,000 7.2 0   Haiti 2,000 0 0   Honduras 11,000 0.1 0   Hungary 24,000 0.2 0   Iceland - 0.1 0   India 160,945,000 13.4 10.3   Indonesia 202,867,000 88.2 12.9   Iran 73,777,000 99.4 4.7   Iraq 30,428,000 99 2   Ireland 22,000 0.5 0   Israel 1,194,000 16.7 0.1   Italy 36,000 0 0   Ivory Coast 7,745,000 36.7 0.5   Jamaica 1,000 0 0   Japan 183,000 0.1 0   Jordan 6,202,000 98.2 0.4   Kazakhstan 8,822,000 56.4 0.6   Kenya 2,793,000 7.0 0.2   Kuwait 2,824,000 95 0.2   Kyrgyzstan 4,734,000 86.3 0.3   Laos 2,000 0 0   Latvia 2,000 0 0   Lebanon 2,504,000 59.3 0.2   Lesotho 1,000 0 0   Liberia 483,000 12.2 0   Libya 6,203,000 96.6 0.4   Lithuania 3,000 0.1 0   Luxembourg 13,000 3 0   Macedonia 680,000 33.3 0   Madagascar 215,000 1.1 0   Malawi 1,955,000 12.8 0.1   Malaysia 16,581,000 60.4 1.1   Maldives 304,000 98.4 0   Mali 12,040,000 92.5 0.8   Mauritania 3,261,000 99.1 0.2   Mauritius 214,000 16.6 0   Mexico 110,000 0 0   Moldova 17,000 0.5 0   Mongolia 133,000 5.0 0   Montenegro 111,000 17.7 0   Morocco 31,993,000 99 2   Mozambique 5,224,000 22.8 0.3   Myanmar 1,889,000 3.8 0.1   Namibia 8,000 0.4 0   Nepal 1,231,000 4.2 0.1   Netherlands 946,000 5.7 0.1   New Caledonia 7,000 2.8 0   New Zealand 37,000 0.9 0   Nicaragua 1,000 0 0   Niger 15,075,000 98.6 1.0   Nigeria 78,056,000 50.4 5.0   North Korea 2,000 0 0   Norway 65,000 1 0   Oman 2,494,000 87.7 0.2   Pakistan 174,082,000 96.3 11.1   Panama 24,000 0.7 0   Papua New Guinea 2,000 0 0   Paraguay 1,000 0 0   Peru 1,000 0 0   Philippines 4,654,000 5.1 0.3   Poland 48,000 0 0   Portugal 15,000 0.1 0   Puerto Rico 1,000 0 0   Qatar 1,092,000 77.5 0.1   Republic of Congo 59,000 1.6 0   Romania 66,000 0.3 0   Russia 16,482,000 11.7 1.0   Rwanda 182,000 1.8 0   Saudi Arabia 24,949,000 97 2   Senegal 12,028,000 96.0 0.8   Serbia 244,000 3.2 0   Seychelles 1,000 1.1 0   Sierra Leone 4,059,000 71.3 0.3   Singapore 706,000 14.9 0   Slovakia - 0 0   Slovakia 49,000 2.4 0   Somalia 8,995,000 98.5 0.6   South Africa 731,000 1.5 0   South Korea 71,000 0.1 0   Spain 650,000 1 0   Sri Lanka 1,711,000 8.5 0.1   Sudan 30,121,000 71.3 1.9   Suriname 83,000 15.9 0   Swaziland 2,000 0.2 0   Sweden 149,000 2 0   Switzerland 323,000 4.3 0   Syria 20,196,000 92.2 1.3   Taiwan 23,000 0 0   Tajikistan 5,848,000 84.1 0.4   Tanzania 13,218,000 30.2 0.8   Thailand 3,930,000 5.8 0.3   Togo 809,000 12.2 0.1   Trinidad and Tobago 78,000 5.8 0   Tunisia 10,216,000 99.5 0.7   Turkey 73,619,000 98 4.7   Turkmenistan 4,757,000 93.1 0.3   Uganda 3,958,000 12.1 0.3   Ukraine 456,000 1.0 0   United Arab Emirates 3,504,000 76.2 0.2   United Kingdom 1,647,000 2.7 0.1   United States 2,454,000 0.8 0.2   Uruguay 1,000 0 0   Uzbekistan 26,469,000 96.3 1.7   Vanuatu - 0 0   Venezuela 94,000 0.3 0   Vietnam 157,000 0.2 0   Western Sahara 510,000 99.4 0   Yemen 23,363,000 99.1 1.5   Zambia 58,000 0.4 0   Zimbabwe 109,000 0.9 0   Asia-Pacific 972,537,000 24.1 61.9   Middle East-North Africa 315,322,000 91.2 20.1   Sub-Saharan Africa 240,632,000 30.1 15.3   Europe 38,112,000 5.2 2.4   Americas 4,596,000 0.5 5.3   World Total 1,571,198,000 22.9 100
```
22.9% is the majority huh....

interesting math you go there babs


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> The state stays out of the church.
> 
> The church however, is trying to constantly inject itself into the state.


 *CJ, the common law as American's know it IS dealt with based on Christian law.....THOU SHALT NOT KILL.*
*THOU SHALT NOT STEAL......you know the rest.*
*That's not unreasonable and you know it.*
*STUDY SHARIA.*

*Like I said, get back to me ONLY then.*
*That's not for you CJ......you always carry yourself well-----despite disagreeing with me. *


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> *Country/Region*  *Muslim population*
> *(2009 est.)*  *Muslim percentage (%) of total*
> *population*  *Percentage (%) of World Muslim*
> *population*  Afghanistan 28,072,000 99.7 1.8 Albania 2,522,000 79.9 0.2 Algeria 34,199,000 98.0 2.2 Angola 190,000 1 0 Argentina 784,000 1.9 0.1 Armenia 1,000 0 0 Australia 365,000 1.7 0 Austria 353,000 4.2 0 Azerbaijan 8,765,000 99.2 0.6 Bahrain 642,000 81.2 0 Bangladesh 145,312,000 89.6 9.3 Belarus 19,000 0 0 Belgium 281,000 3 0 Belize 1,400 0.1 0 Benin 2,182,000 24.4 0.1 Bhutan 7,000 1.0 0 Bolivia 2,000 0 0 Bosnia-Herzegovina 1,522,000 40 0.1 Botswana 8,000 0.4 0 Brazil 191,000 0.1 0 Brunei 269,000 67.2 0 Bulgaria 920,000 12.2 0.1 Burkina Faso 9,292,000 59.0 0.6 Burundi 180,000 2 0 Cambodia 236,000 1.6 0 Cameroon 3,498,000 17.9 0.2 Canada 657,000 2.0 0 Central African Republic 395,000 8.9 0 Chad 6,257,000 55.8 0.4 Chile 4,000 0 0 China 21,667,000 1.6 1.4 Colombia 14,000 0 0 Comoros 664,000 98.3 0 Costa Rica - 0 0 Congo 943,000 1.4 0.1 Croatia 18,000 0 0 Cuba 9,000 0.1 0 Cyprus 198,000 22.7 0 Czech Republic 1,000 0 0 Denmark 88,000 2 0 Djibouti 838,000 96.9 0.1 Dominican Republic 2,000 0 0 East Timor 43,000 3.8 0 Ecuador 2,000 0 0 Ecuador 2,000 0 0 Egypt 78,513,000 94.6 5.0 El Salvador 2,000 0 0 Eritrea 1,854,000 36.5 0.1 Estonia 2,000 0.1 0 Ethiopia 28,063,000 33.9 1.8 Fiji 53,000 6.3 0 Finland 24,000 0.5 0 France 3,554,000 6 0.2 Gabon 140,000 9.5 0.1 Gambia 1,625,000 95 0.1 Georgia 423,000 9.9 0 Germany 4,026,000 5 0.3 Ghana 3,787,000 15.9 0.2 Greece 310,000 3 0 Grenada - 0.3 0 Guatemala 1,000 0 0 Guinea 8,502,000 84.4 0.5 Guinea-Bissau 680,000 42.2 0 Guyana 55,000 7.2 0 Haiti 2,000 0 0 Honduras 11,000 0.1 0 Hungary 24,000 0.2 0 Iceland - 0.1 0 India 160,945,000 13.4 10.3 Indonesia 202,867,000 88.2 12.9 Iran 73,777,000 99.4 4.7 Iraq 30,428,000 99 2 Ireland 22,000 0.5 0 Israel 1,194,000 16.7 0.1 Italy 36,000 0 0 Ivory Coast 7,745,000 36.7 0.5 Jamaica 1,000 0 0 Japan 183,000 0.1 0 Jordan 6,202,000 98.2 0.4 Kazakhstan 8,822,000 56.4 0.6 Kenya 2,793,000 7.0 0.2 Kuwait 2,824,000 95 0.2 Kyrgyzstan 4,734,000 86.3 0.3 Laos 2,000 0 0 Latvia 2,000 0 0 Lebanon 2,504,000 59.3 0.2 Lesotho 1,000 0 0 Liberia 483,000 12.2 0 Libya 6,203,000 96.6 0.4 Lithuania 3,000 0.1 0 Luxembourg 13,000 3 0 Macedonia 680,000 33.3 0 Madagascar 215,000 1.1 0 Malawi 1,955,000 12.8 0.1 Malaysia 16,581,000 60.4 1.1 Maldives 304,000 98.4 0 Mali 12,040,000 92.5 0.8 Mauritania 3,261,000 99.1 0.2 Mauritius 214,000 16.6 0 Mexico 110,000 0 0 Moldova 17,000 0.5 0 Mongolia 133,000 5.0 0 Montenegro 111,000 17.7 0 Morocco 31,993,000 99 2 Mozambique 5,224,000 22.8 0.3 Myanmar 1,889,000 3.8 0.1 Namibia 8,000 0.4 0 Nepal 1,231,000 4.2 0.1 Netherlands 946,000 5.7 0.1 New Caledonia 7,000 2.8 0 New Zealand 37,000 0.9 0 Nicaragua 1,000 0 0 Niger 15,075,000 98.6 1.0 Nigeria 78,056,000 50.4 5.0 North Korea 2,000 0 0 Norway 65,000 1 0 Oman 2,494,000 87.7 0.2 Pakistan 174,082,000 96.3 11.1 Panama 24,000 0.7 0 Papua New Guinea 2,000 0 0 Paraguay 1,000 0 0 Peru 1,000 0 0 Philippines 4,654,000 5.1 0.3 Poland 48,000 0 0 Portugal 15,000 0.1 0 Puerto Rico 1,000 0 0 Qatar 1,092,000 77.5 0.1 Republic of Congo 59,000 1.6 0 Romania 66,000 0.3 0 Russia 16,482,000 11.7 1.0 Rwanda 182,000 1.8 0 Saudi Arabia 24,949,000 97 2 Senegal 12,028,000 96.0 0.8 Serbia 244,000 3.2 0 Seychelles 1,000 1.1 0 Sierra Leone 4,059,000 71.3 0.3 Singapore 706,000 14.9 0 Slovakia - 0 0 Slovakia 49,000 2.4 0 Somalia 8,995,000 98.5 0.6 South Africa 731,000 1.5 0 South Korea 71,000 0.1 0 Spain 650,000 1 0 Sri Lanka 1,711,000 8.5 0.1 Sudan 30,121,000 71.3 1.9 Suriname 83,000 15.9 0 Swaziland 2,000 0.2 0 Sweden 149,000 2 0 Switzerland 323,000 4.3 0 Syria 20,196,000 92.2 1.3 Taiwan 23,000 0 0 Tajikistan 5,848,000 84.1 0.4 Tanzania 13,218,000 30.2 0.8 Thailand 3,930,000 5.8 0.3 Togo 809,000 12.2 0.1 Trinidad and Tobago 78,000 5.8 0 Tunisia 10,216,000 99.5 0.7 Turkey 73,619,000 98 4.7 Turkmenistan 4,757,000 93.1 0.3 Uganda 3,958,000 12.1 0.3 Ukraine 456,000 1.0 0 United Arab Emirates 3,504,000 76.2 0.2 United Kingdom 1,647,000 2.7 0.1 United States 2,454,000 0.8 0.2 Uruguay 1,000 0 0 Uzbekistan 26,469,000 96.3 1.7 Vanuatu - 0 0 Venezuela 94,000 0.3 0 Vietnam 157,000 0.2 0 Western Sahara 510,000 99.4 0 Yemen 23,363,000 99.1 1.5 Zambia 58,000 0.4 0 Zimbabwe 109,000 0.9 0 *Asia-Pacific* *972,537,000* *24.1* *61.9* *Middle East-North Africa* *315,322,000* *91.2* *20.1* *Sub-Saharan Africa* *240,632,000* *30.1* *15.3* *Europe* *38,112,000* *5.2* *2.4* *Americas* *4,596,000* *0.5* *5.3* *World Total* *1,571,198,000* *22.9* *100*
> ...


 I already said AGAIN, not once, but TWICE.......and that was after the INITIAL STATISTICS.
Figure it out.
I don't like repeating myself. I won't do it patiently with my 11 year old. I'm not about to do it with ADULTS.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*Nope, actually FOUR times I've SAID THIS ALREADY..................ONE OUT OF FOUR.*
*Wow, surpasses pathetic.*


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 12, 2009)

well youve been repeating yourself the whole time to no avail even when your presented with valid arguments...


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> No it has not. There are cases of Sharia courts within the Muslim communities, but these have no sway over legal matters. Only within the confines of their own communities does sharia law operate, to a very small extent as it would not be allowed to contradict the law of the land and if the persons involved wished they would not have to abide by the Sharia courts decisions, which may lead them to be shunned by their own community, but would have no legal ramifications and it would not be legally recognised in a real court of law. The law of the land prevails, not small communities.


 Only read first sentence.......yes, it has. Your fault for not googling...but there I go again REPEATING MYSELF.
LEARN TO RESEARCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> well youve been repeating yourself the whole time to no avail even when your presented with valid arguments...


 HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA...........OK, we just don't have a clue how many people are in this world, now do we?


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## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*That's the problem. YOU ARGUE. YOU DON'T STUDY........as you claim to. *


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## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> Have you read the old testament?


 *DUHHHHHHHHHHHHH, ANOTHER REPEAT........IMAGINE THAT.*
*LAST TIME.........VERY SLOW.*
*I *
*DO *
*NOT*
*TAKE*
*THE*
*OT*
*AS *
*THE *
*LITERAL*
*WORD*
*OF *
*GOD.*
*Will that suffice as your final answer?*
*Damn, you guys just need to start a Christian bashing thread. You're working overtime, but you'll never EVER.........EVERRRRRRRRRRRRR be able to claim Christ EVIL.*


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 12, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *That's the problem. YOU ARGUE. YOU DON'T STUDY........as you claim to. *


oh so the CIA factbook is just a figment of my imagination?


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## IAm5toned (Oct 12, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *DUHHHHHHHHHHHHH, ANOTHER REPEAT........IMAGINE THAT.*
> *LAST TIME.........VERY SLOW.*
> *I *
> *DO *
> ...


someone getting a little frustrated?


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> oh so the CIA factbook is just a figment of my imagination?


 *You do know how to do simple MATH? YES?
FIVE TIMES NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
*THAT MAKES ONE OUT OF FOUR PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY MUSLIM.*
*IQ too low here..........officially unsubscribed to the STUPIDITY.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> someone getting a little frustrated?


 *Stupidity is ALWAYS frustrating to me......particularly from people who ask when "they" are frustrated if "I" am retarded?*
*When you don't think a person valid on any given point.....prove it----IF able to do so.*
*But when they are RIGHT, and you are either TOO LAZY or too stuck on stupid........or just blatantly hate what Christ represents.*
*Going back to my laughing now.....at you. *


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## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*Wow, this thread made me proud to be an American. *


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## IAm5toned (Oct 12, 2009)

here, do some math then...

and perhaps a little fact checking before you start another rant  i laugh at you
United States Protestant 51.3%, Roman Catholic 23.9%, Mormon 1.7%, other Christian 1.6%, Jewish 1.7%, Buddhist 0.7%, Muslim 0.6%, other or unspecified 2.5%, unaffiliated 12.1%, none 4% (2007 est.)


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## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

Stoney McFried said:


> Well...here are some quotes from 'gentle' Jesus.
> _"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man&#8217;s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it."_ (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)
> 
> _" *49* I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! *50* But I have a baptism* to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! *51* Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; *52* for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. *53* They will be divided, father* against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. (Luke12:49-53)_
> ...


*I could break every bit of this down to you Stoney........in common, simple language. And it would appeal to you as well..........it WOULD make sense once discussed.*
*Question is, would you bother to read it? *
*Night......."out."*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> here, do some math then...
> 
> and perhaps a little fact checking before you start another rant  i laugh at you
> United States Protestant 51.3%, Roman Catholic 23.9%, Mormon 1.7%, other Christian 1.6%, Jewish 1.7%, Buddhist 0.7%, Muslim 0.6%, other or unspecified 2.5%, unaffiliated 12.1%, none 4% (2007 est.)


LOL, save it dude......I'm envisioning you making bets with your bud Panda on how long you can keep me commenting......I didn't get past the first three words....."hadith" for ya.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

Oohhhhhhhhhhh, now try taking thirty seconds without typing.....it will lower your blood pressure.


----------



## krustofskie (Oct 12, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> Only read first sentence.......yes, it has. Your fault for not googling...but there I go again REPEATING MYSELF.
> LEARN TO RESEARCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.


No, I repeat as you dont seem to understand, no, Sharia law is not in the British legal system. I can not be bought before a Sharia court, not ever, as it has no jurisdiction over me. Even those from the Muslim community that use the Sharia courts don't have to abide by there decisions, they can take any case to the British courts system. The British court's supersedes them.
LEARN TO RESEARCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH yourself instead of just reading the headlines. I have done my research and I know. If you have any proof to back up your claim, please give me a link.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> No it has not. There are cases of Sharia courts within the Muslim communities, but these have no sway over legal matters. Only within the confines of their own communities does sharia law operate, to a very small extent as it would not be allowed to contradict the law of the land and if the persons involved wished they would not have to abide by the Sharia courts decisions, which may lead them to be shunned by their own community, but would have no legal ramifications and it would not be legally recognised in a real court of law. The law of the land prevails, not small communities.


* The law of the land prevails, not small communities.*
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*hahahaahahahahahahahahahaha*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

1+2=3
figure it out genius


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> No, I repeat as you dont seem to understand, no, Sharia law is not in the British legal system. I can not be bought before a Sharia court, not ever, as it has no jurisdiction over me. Even those from the Muslim community that use the Sharia courts don't have to abide by there decisions, they can take any case to the British courts system. The British court's supersedes them.
> LEARN TO RESEARCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH yourself instead of just reading the headlines. I have done my research and I know. If you have any proof to back up your claim, please give me a link.


 I'll go even more slowly this time......
it has been ADOPTED by the muslims.
OK, think now..........go take a tylenol first.


----------



## krustofskie (Oct 12, 2009)

So you have no evidence? time for you to put up or shut up.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*Even if it takes you HOURS.......go back, reflect, hell.......do yoga if necessary.*
*Breathe in.......Breathe out.*
*REFLECT.*
*ADD.*
*COME TO THE PRODUCT AT HAND.*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

EXHALE.........now start over again.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

REPEAT
......over and OVER AGAIN.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*wooooooooooooot, love ittttttttttttttttttttt*
*i'm the one with the excuse............breathe in, breathe out....remember that, ok?*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> so you have no evidence? Time for you to put up or shut up.


 *you're not breathing!!!*


----------



## krustofskie (Oct 12, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> I'll go even more slowly this time......
> it has been ADOPTED by the muslims.
> OK, think now..........go take a tylenol first.


Only by those that choose it. The parties involved have to agree to use a sharia court. It is not imposed upon anyone. Even then the law of the land supersedes it, if a Muslim murders a Muslim, it is not dealt with by a sharia court, it is dealt with by the British courts of law.


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## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*One small step for man........one huge leap for mankind.*
*TAKE THE DAMN BOTTLE.*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*Now, zip the foolishness. To err is human, what's your excuse?*


----------



## The Good Doctor (Oct 12, 2009)

It all started with a desire seed. Once watered, turned into a desire tree. 

In this case, the desire was to know what it is like to either a) be god or b) have no god at all. 

This is only possible in a Supra Verse made from Maya. So here we are. 

All other information is Scientific Dribble. 

Remember what science is without religion, and what religion is without science.


----------



## krustofskie (Oct 12, 2009)

You lowered your blood pressure yet.

Shadow Home Secretary Dominic Grieve said: 'Mediation verdicts which are incompatible with our own legal principles should never be enforceable. One of the key aspects of our free society is equality. This should be understood and respected by all.'
The Ministry of Justice said: 'English law takes precedence over any other legal system. The Government has no intention of changing this position. Alongside this, it is possible to resolve civil law dispute by other systems.'


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 12, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> You NEVER know it VERY personally CJ, UNTIL you HEAVILY embark upon conversation actually regarding Islam on a PERSONAL level with them.....don't take my word, find out for yourself. And I do mean IN DEPTH.
> 
> And for the rest of you atheists who choose to continue to challenge the Bible........don't waste your time with the OT with me..........I DON'T SEE IT AS THE WORD OF GOD.........HELLO, WAKE UP.
> Seek an argument elsewhere.


Well, let's see... Ive read the qaran as well as the bible. Both are bloodthirsty, but that is not surprising since both religions were invented in hard scrabble areas of the world.

I've been to Morocco on more than one occasion and with a native friend as a personal guide. I have been allowed into the mosques even though they knew I was not Moslem. I've been during Ramadan twice. I think I've seen quite a bit of the inside world of Islam in Morocco. 

In Morocco, one does not have to worship if one doesn't wish to. They consider it to be between you and Allah.

I've got no problems with that. Not all Moslems are the same.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*CJ, you met a peaceful muslim.....you attended a mosque And?? Are you truly telling me that you EXTENSIVELY studied this religion?*
*If so.....educate, please....starting with HADITHS.*
*And stay on topic......my beliefs are of the NT, not the OT.*
*The comparison was Christ vs. mo.*
*Don't make it your goal to mock Christ.....just tell me what you KNOW the message/history of Mohammad to be.*


----------



## Brazko (Oct 12, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *I could break every bit of this down to you Stoney........in common, simple language. And it would appeal to you as well..........it WOULD make sense once discussed.*
> *Question is, would you bother to read it? *
> *Night......."out."*


I thought the Same, it would've been pointless though, and yes they would've agreed with all of that scripture...Even if not admitting to it...

Actually, Paddy already quoted that scripture in simple modern times in a thread/post a while ago....and he probably has a understanding of that scripture as well, since he didn't reconfirm it in the context of it being evil / hatred...

and he was Right in A Sense, as I told him others should abide by it as Well...


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

Brazko said:


> I thought the Same, it would've been pointless though, and yes they would've agreed with all of that scripture...Even if not admitting to it...
> 
> *Actually, Paddy already quoted that scripture in simple modern times in a thread/post a while ago....and he probably has a understanding of that scripture as well, since he didn't reconfirm it in the context of it being evil / hatred...*
> 
> and he was Right in A Sense, as I told him others should abide by it as Well...


 *You know Braz, I believe it too.*
*Did I mention RIU is becoming less fun by the day?*
*It's one thing to discuss, but irrational and insane disputes don't suit me. I simply won't take my time out for them. Life is way, WAY too short. *
**Actually, Paddy already quoted that scripture in simple modern times in a thread/post a while ago....and he probably has a understanding of that scripture as well, since he didn't reconfirm it in the context of it being evil / hatred...


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 12, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *CJ, you met a peaceful muslim.....you attended a mosque And?? Are you truly telling me that you EXTENSIVELY studied this religion?*
> *If so.....educate, please....starting with HADITHS.*
> *And stay on topic......my beliefs are of the NT, not the OT.*
> *The comparison was Christ vs. mo.*
> *Don't make it your goal to mock Christ.....just tell me what you KNOW the message/history of Mohammad to be.*


No, I'm saying (for the second time now) that not all moslem societies are the same...  Some are quite liberal. 
Again, it wouldn't bother me if that style of Moslem observance became dominant here in the states.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> No, I'm saying (for the second time now) that not all moslem societies are the same...  Some are quite liberal.
> Again, it wouldn't bother me if that style of Moslem observance became dominant here in the states.


 *No need to repeat yourself with me CJ.....I hear and see things first time around (unless people are posting to me every 15 seconds )*
*I've said the same thing several times over.......but the message I've been trying to send keeps losing some.*
*...oh well.*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*I'm really going this time.......you'd still be sorry if even that kind of observance became dominant. It serves as nothing less than an opportunity for extreme muslims to build upon.*
*Don't say it's impossible...far cry from it.*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Well, the way the USA works is, if enough moslems come to the usa or enough usa citizens convert to moslem to make it the dominant religion in USA society.... SO BE IT!!!
> 
> The US constitution was not set up to make Christianity dominant.


 *Only posting because I've been attacked at every end for the past hour....and yeap CJ........I DID overlook this one.*
*CJ, be prepared to clothe your babies in burka then. Also be warned of sharia law being instilled. No, the goal is not they alone practice it. You will be the dhimi. Dhimitude is nothing to accept gracefully. I'm so sorry, TRULY SORRY for this country for the shock they will soon be embarking upon.*
*No, it won't happen all at once.*
*Such a VERY SAD DAY IN THIS COUNTRY when you would truly PREFER muslim rule over our current law.*
*Depressing.*


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 12, 2009)

Where's ur tolerance...?


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> Not to mention if you think something like Sharia Law could be passed in an American court system, you're fuckin' dreaming pal.


 *"i"..."d"......*
*you know the rest.*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Where's ur tolerance...?


 *hehehe CJ.......I hope NUMEROUS take the time to read how many times I alone repeated that 1/4 of the world were already islamic.........and actually take the time to read the links.*
*My tolerance is on empty now. Those who take the time to go back and read (and are intelligent) will get that........believer or not.*
*Enjoy islamic law!!!*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*...and CJ, where was the tolerance for Christianity EVEN ONCE in this thread? *


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

oh hell........I never even expected tolerance for my "faith"........just expected you and others to actually read.........GOD FORBID!!!


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

Brazko said:


> What about this alternative version..Wait!! It's not an Alternative
> 
> 
> [youtube]qd9zVsWm4oA[/youtube]


 *looooooooooooool, I'm CRYING here, It takes A LOT to make me laugh!!!!!!! That was HYSTERICAL........thanks for the happy ending......*


----------



## PadawanBater (Oct 12, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Look, I've tried to be nice PandaRAT, but enough with your BS......stifle it......or show your proof of Christ speaking such CRAP. .....Enough with the stupidity.*
> *YOU CANNOT COMPARE THE TWO.........DEAL WITH THE "facts" ....oh brilliant atheist, LOL. The only threads I've ever seen you post on you are acting like a madman...CHILL OUT!!!*
> *I'm not trying to take you to Christ, just to open your damn blind eyes......but you have eyes CLOSED.*
> *You are so determined to hate Christians, hate Christ......hate the GOODNESS of His teachings.......so be it. You are just plain HATEFUL......period.*
> ...


 
...Well I guess it's not totally unheard of, a "Christian" who doesn't follow half his own doctrine... Though it is almost the same excuse every time... "only the NT matters". But if that were really true, you'd discard it (and have the church officially discard it too). What's the difference? Both were written by the same kinds of men, both claim to be the word of God himself, so why can you throw out the OT so casually, what gives you that authority?

Moving on... Even though I now consider you a troll, as is evident by your recent display of post after post of nonsense with no substance, just racking up a post count, I'm still compelled to reply to this because it's just so stupid, and maybe someone else reading will actually take some of it into consideration, because you clearly won't. Consider your ass ignored, because you're not even worth the time, I'm simply using you now as a jumping off point to address typical fundie fabrications about stuff they know nothing about, so carry on, you're great at that!

I've never "acted like a madman" on any thread I've posted on, like I said before, I couldn't give a damn less what subjective Christian meaning you hold or what unreachable golden standard I'm supposed to live up to in your mind. Believe I'm a madman if you want, I just speak logic and reason, if that threatens your agenda, then change your agenda. 

I've had my eyes open my entire life. You know absolutely nothing about me, you can't accurately make such a statement. 

I hate no Christians. I don't hate Christ either. If such a man existed, I might even admire the guy. GASP!!! Did that surprise you? That an atheist would agree that Jesus Christ says some things his own moral code would actually agree with in the Bible?! See, it's reasons like that that I know what kind of a "Christian" you claim yourself to be Babs, I've dealt with plenty of people just like yourself in the past... Start talking about equal rights for homosexuals or abortions and they come out of the woodworks!! Would you ever even THINK of admitting that Muhammad had ANYTHING at all good to say?... See the difference? I oppose your bullshit because, well... It's bullshit. It's so clear to me that it is a false doctrine and that there are billions of people living their life based on a lie. You oppose it because your doctrine and dogmatic faith COMMAND you to oppose it, regardless if your natural human instincts, human ingenuity or technology contradict what ancient mans basic mind was able to conceive of. Would you go to a michanic whose only knowledge about motors was from the very first model-T manual?! That's what your doing with reality by reading and following the Bible, or Quran, or any religious text. 

I said religion is scary, both Christianity and Islam, mainly because there are so many goddamn insane followers of both religons, not so much because of the religions themselves. Christianity is more prevalent in my own life, which is why I talk about it and study it more than Islam. Also, like I explained to you before, Islam is not nearly as much of a threat to the thinking individual as Christianity is. Any smart person looks at Islam with disgust. It's tougher for smart people to realize the dangers within Christianity until it's too late and their mind is already poisoned with thoughts, and in the case of a lot of people, especially children, actual beliefs of eternal torment and torture after death if they don't believe. That one little bit is enough to keep people shackled to the shit their entire life, similar to how abusive husbands tell their wives how much they love them, but if they ever leave they'll kill em! 

It's fundamentalists like you who are the worse part of our existence. Those of us who wish to live our lives day by day with no interference by shit that doesnt' exist or retards claiming it does have a pretty difficult time going about doing that while you spit your nonsense everywhere you can. Part of me wants to say "live and let live, believe whatever the hell you want to believe" but another part of me wants to say "enough is enough, you've kept mankind down long enough, it's time to get rid of this shit once and for all!". We've tried the first way for as long as have been atheists... it doesn't seem to work. You guys keep pushing and pushing and taking more and more. That's why you've seen such a dramatic increase in such outspoken atheists lately, lately being the past 5 or 6 years. More people are beginning to feel like that second option. We've had enough of your bullshit, we're simply not laying down and taking it any longer. 

The demise of religion is INEVITABLE if mankind reaches the future. If not, religion will undoubtably be the demise of man.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*ONE MORE TIME..........HAHAHHAHA'.........I'm STILL LMAO..................HAHAHAHAA*
*You know what's so cool........Christians CAN laugh about that!!!!*
*Laugh about Mo, OFF WITH YOUR HEAD.*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> ...Well I guess it's not totally unheard of, a "Christian" who doesn't follow half his own doctrine... Though it is almost the same excuse every time... "only the NT matters". But if that were really true, you'd discard it (and have the church officially discard it too). What's the difference? Both were written by the same kinds of men, both claim to be the word of God himself, so why can you throw out the OT so casually, what gives you that authority?
> 
> Moving on... Even though I now consider you a troll, as is evident by your recent display of post after post of nonsense with no substance, just racking up a post count, I'm still compelled to reply to this because it's just so stupid, and maybe someone else reading will actually take some of it into consideration, because you clearly won't. Consider your ass ignored, because you're not even worth the time, I'm simply using you now as a jumping off point to address typical fundie fabrications about stuff they know nothing about, so carry on, you're great at that!
> 
> ...


 *ok, God, I saw your face and I IMMEDIATELY SAID EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*Sing it Panda ..........*
*We are the ATHEISTS.......free from mind control.*
*HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*


----------



## PadawanBater (Oct 12, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Sing it Panda ..........*
> *We are the ATHEISTS.......free from mind control.*
> *HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*


 
Howbout "I once was lost... but now am found..."

lmfao , suck on that irony!

And it's Padawan BITCH, RESPECT the force!


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> Howbout "I once was lost... but now am found..."
> 
> lmfao , suck on that irony!
> 
> And it's Padawan BITCH, RESPECT the force!


 ENCORE ENCORE
......BIATCH


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 12, 2009)

*Respect the lady bitch *


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 13, 2009)

babs... stop acting like a troll.

even if we dont agree with you at least we are being civil towards you...

...do you really want me to dig up some videos on bible thumpers and jihadists and post em here, has this thread really degraded to that?

thanks for ruining an interesting and intelligent conversation, you have no tact, and resort to juvenile actions and unsourced 'facts' when confronted with valid opposing views. 

unsubscribed.


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 13, 2009)

Does anyone honestly think that if Jesus actually came back, he wouldn't be HORRIFIED at what has become of his word?


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 13, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> babs... stop acting like a troll.
> 
> even if we dont agree with you at least we are being civil towards you...
> 
> ...


*You amuse me "Iamstoned." Trolling, you say?*
*An interesting thing to note here(which I am sure will be conveniently overlooked) is the title of this thread.*
*Normally, I would not have even dropped into a thread with this title.*
*You know why?...because it's filled with a high percentage of atheists tearing apart something they feel they are experts on.*
*The reality is that when one of these threads are created, there are so many of you just waiting in your den like a hungry lion about to have their first meal of the month. People like you use Christians for entertainment. You don't "discuss" anything.*


even if we don't agree with you at least we are being civil towards you...
*If you really think that, your mother didn't teach you well.*
*You attempted how many times to argue with me? I'm not going back to count.*
*When it was I who initially brought up the statistics of 1 out of 4 people in the world being muslim, you used it as an opportunity to attempt to make me look like a fool---as if I had claimed something altogether different.*
*Alas, that's all I did throughout the entire thread from post one to last........repeat myself.*
*While some wish to hide under the guise that something simply cannot be true--"because" they don't like the web site as its source----and they are given the NY Times to appease them.....and they STILL wish to make it an argument, exactly WHO is being the troll?*
*I never said sharia became the common law in Britain.....never. But rather than realize it to be just what it was, it turned back to the "Evil Christians."*
*I will say that I've witnessed some really goofy, odd, weird "supposed" Christians in this day and age, but to use an extremely few isolated incidents to prove us (and the doctrine of Christianity) SCARY is foolishness at best.*
*If you truly are more scared of what is being taught via the words of Christ as opposed to the teachings of Mohammad, there is something severely wrong with you---believer or not.*
*I'm betting there are so many countless threads like this one..with the very same atheists taking on the very same demeanor.*
*When someone attempts to converse with you, try doing just that.*
*Asking if they are "retarded"...and calling them a bitch is HS mentality.........nope, I take that back. I had better conversations than this in high school.*
*You don't get me.....that's fine.*
*I think it safe to say that you along with others got lost with the fact that I got to the point where all I could do was laugh...starting several pages back.*
*I can't make islam or any other religion disappear. What I CAN do is to know better than to invite their way of life into my country.*

*While others speak of tolerance, balance as well with tolerating a normal conversation with a Christian....you might just find out we're not nearly as whacked out as you initially believed.*
*Adopt the attitude "p" did right from the beginning....you'll never find out.*
*When you are so busy "schooling" others that you missed what the topic had moved to.....you are a know-it-all who simply refuses to learn anything......you are determined to believe that you are much too knowledgeable already.*
*Intelligent people NEVER stop questioning.*
*With islam, to question allah or the quran is to warrant DEATH.....via teachings of allah himself.*
*"P" doesn't get to tell me that my beliefs are not valid "because" I won't take the OT as the literal word of God. He's stuck on the OT simply because he wishes to KEEP it there.*
*Go back and count how many times I asked him to back it with the words of Christ......*
*again, I'm the troll?*
*Last nights posts only serve as a reminder of just how complacent people in our society have become with what is to be considered dangerous.*
*I'll take a few goofy Christians knocking on my door with their enlightening "Jesus loves you" every day of the week over islam.*
*It is surreal to me when I must internalize the REALITY of how many are more determined to use their "professed expertise" regarding Christ to viciously attack something that is NOT a threat to them, or their lifestyles.*
*...all while using the innocent teachings of Christ to enforce as a comparison the peacefulness of islam.*
*Buddha must be rolling in his grave.*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 13, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Does anyone honestly think that if Jesus actually came back, he wouldn't be HORRIFIED at what has become of his word?


 *Since there's no grave to make a reference to here......of course Christ would be/IS "horrified"....don't know if that's the choice word.*


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 13, 2009)

Jesus comes back and won't give the gentiles the time of day.... now that would be funny. 
"uhhh, ur not Jewish.... cya!"


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 13, 2009)

*YIKES.....at least there's always hope. *


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 13, 2009)

I don't need a myth to give me hope....


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 13, 2009)

*I'm exceedingly hopeful......in a realistic way. *


----------



## Stoney McFried (Oct 13, 2009)

Hm.I don't know what I find more insulting.The inference that I need common simple language to understand anything or the insinuation that I don't read the posts I'm responding to.In either case, I say both Christianity and Islam have done their share to thwart the progress of mankind.You're angry that we're down on Christians, and yet you're attacking Islam with nearly every post.I'm merely pointing out that folks who worship in glass churches shouldn't throw stones.


Babs34 said:


> *I could break every bit of this down to you Stoney........in common, simple language. And it would appeal to you as well..........it WOULD make sense once discussed.*
> *Question is, would you bother to read it? *
> *Night......."out."*


----------



## Bigrintxas (Oct 13, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Well, let's see... Ive read the qaran as well as the bible. Both are bloodthirsty, but that is not surprising since both religions were invented in hard scrabble areas of the world.
> 
> I've been to Morocco on more than one occasion and with a native friend as a personal guide. I have been allowed into the mosques even though they knew I was not Moslem. I've been during Ramadan twice. I think I've seen quite a bit of the inside world of Islam in Morocco.
> 
> ...


I dont know about that CJ, you say "They consider it to be between you and Allah. I've got no problems with that." However, here you are, again and again and again over numerous threads putting down people because of their fatih. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm just saying.... fair is fair. If the country wants to go Islam.... there's no rule book that says that can't or shouldn't happen. That's what makes this country great.


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 13, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *You amuse me "Iamstoned." Trolling, you say?*
> *An interesting thing to note here(which I am sure will be conveniently overlooked) is the title of this thread.*
> *Normally, I would not have even dropped into a thread with this title.*
> *You know why?...because it's filled with a high percentage of atheists tearing apart something they feel they are experts on.*
> ...


conjecture, and lies to make your self look important and self justified- ill shoot you down, again, just for old times sake, how bout that. here we go:

1) *You amuse me "Iamstoned." Trolling, you say?*
*An interesting thing to note here(which I am sure will be conveniently overlooked) is the title of this thread.*
*Normally, I would not have even dropped into a thread with this title.*
*You know why?...because it's filled with a high percentage of atheists tearing apart something they feel they are experts on.
*
Response- The title of this thread has nothing to do with the religions of islam, christianity, judaism, buddism, or any other religion. It is a debate about whether or not intellegent design and the purpose of can be proven or not.

*2) You attempted how many times to argue with me? I'm not going back to count.

*response- this entire thread is a debate. if you cant handle an opposing view i suggest you start another thread more closely related to preaching... 

*3) When it was I who initially brought up the statistics of 1 out of 4 people in the world being muslim, you used it as an opportunity to attempt to make me look like a fool---as if I had claimed something altogether different.*

response- actually, you did say something different:


Babs34 said:


> *THAT MAKES ONE OUT OF FOUR PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY MUSLIM.*
> *.*


and my response: sourced from the CIA factbook on percentages of population based on religion, clearly shows that this is not the case.
United States Protestant 51.3%, Roman Catholic 23.9%, Mormon 1.7%, other Christian 1.6%, Jewish 1.7%, Buddhist 0.7%, Muslim 0.6%, other or unspecified 2.5%, unaffiliated 12.1%, none 4% (2007 est.) 
perhaps that number has risen since 2007 when this report was assembled, but i still doubt that the us muslim population has reached 25% I didnt make you look like fool, your own words do.

*4) When someone attempts to converse with you, try doing just that.*
*Asking if they are "retarded"...and calling them a bitch is HS mentality.........nope, I take that back.*

response- you should take it back, because you are guilty:


Babs34 said:


> LOL, save it dude......I'm envisioning you making bets with your bud Panda on how long you can keep me commenting......I didn't get past the first three words....."hadith" for ya.





Babs34 said:


> *hahahaahahahahahahahahahaha*





Babs34 said:


> *wooooooooooooot, love ittttttttttttttttttttt*
> *i'm the one with the excuse............breathe in, breathe out....remember that, ok?*


the evidence speaks for itself on your high school mentality. you dont even read responses, according you your first post i quoted for this response.

*5)If you truly are more scared of what is being taught via the words of Christ as opposed to the teachings of Mohammad, there is something severely wrong with you---believer or not.*

response- Im not sure where your going with this, because I never said I was scared of any teachings of christ, or the teachings of any religon. From your posts, its very apparent that YOU are terrified of islam. But if your assuming that there is something wrong with me if did, than that would make you a FASCIST. sieg heil man.... gonna get you some blood laces next? some jackboots, armbands maybe?

*5) you are a know-it-all who simply refuses to learn anything......you are determined to believe that you are much too knowledgeable already.*

response-I could say the same for you, but I wont. Insults dont validate a point, they subvert the credibility of the person making the insult... 


*6) I can't make islam or any other religion disappear. What I CAN do is to know better than to invite their way of life into my country.*


Babs34 said:


> *Wow, this thread made me proud to be an American. *


response- you should remember that this country was founded on the premise of religious freedom... i take the post i quoted from you as sarcasm. Again, i say you are a fascist, or express fascist views and tolerences.

*7) People like you use Christians for entertainment. You don't "discuss" anything.*

response- your doing the same thing to muslims. welcome to the club, man! 

*You don't get me.....that's fine.*

response- thank goodness. i wouldnt be able to sleep at night knowing the evil muslims are going to rise up and take over the world, and dress my children in muslim clothes and kill everyone that opposes them; because thats what you try so desperately to prove here.

*9) Intelligent people NEVER stop questioning.*

response- which is why i question you. all of your posts are conjecture, you source nothing, and resort to personal attacks when opposed. 

*10)Buddha must be rolling in his grave.*

Well if you had done any of the studying your constantly preaching about you might want to consider the fact that buddha may be reincarnated.. and not rolling in his grave. 

I rest my case.


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## PadawanBater (Oct 13, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *You amuse me "Iamstoned." Trolling, you say?*
> *An interesting thing to note here(which I am sure will be conveniently overlooked) is the title of this thread.*
> *Normally, I would not have even dropped into a thread with this title.*
> *You know why?...because it's filled with a high percentage of atheists tearing apart something they feel they are experts on.*
> ...


IAm5toned, great post, epic pwnage, +rep!

*I will say that I've witnessed some really goofy, odd, weird "supposed" Christians in this day and age, but to use an extremely few isolated incidents to prove us (and the doctrine of Christianity) SCARY is foolishness at best.

*So it's totally fair for you to do the exact same thing with Muslims, pick out the craziest ones of the bunch and use them as shining examples of the whole of believers, but when someone points out a nutty Christian, you clearly see how "foolish" it is? 

There's one thing I want to point out to you, because you can't seem to grasp it.. You know how in America there are believers, Christians, who say they believe in God and the Bible and all the religious stuff, but they also believe in things like evolution and they don't take the shit that is said in the Bible as the litteral word of their God, because they know the Bible is wrong on plenty of things, not only scientific, that have been established as common knowledge. There are MILLIONS of them, much more than the kind of fundie believer you are, you're the minority. The same thing goes for Islam. You sit there and say "the Quran commands all Muslims to kill any nonbelievers!" - OK, that may be, but that doesn't matter, because not EVER SINGLE practicing Muslim takes the Quran as the litteral word of their God. Pretty easy to understand, right? The MINORITY, the extremists, the actual ones who commit terrorism are the ones who take the shit litteral, and they don't do a great job of it (EXACLY LIKE THE FUNDIE'S OF THE STATES), which is why you see so many of them blow themselves up in the name of Allah. Think of the extremists of Islam like the Westburro Baptist idiots from America. 

How many times do I have to remind you I don't care about your subjective Christian opinion of me, who I am, or what I believe? You thinking there is something "severely wrong with me" tells me I'm certainly on the right track!

Since when did a question become childish? Asking you if you're retarded was an honest, genuine question. I was serious. What's wrong with that?... And the bitch thing was clearly in a joking tone. If you took offense to that, grow thicker skin. This is the internet buddy.

I have no interest in "schooling" others. The satisfaction I get from talking about these subjects is a byproduct of the first goal which is always on my mind. Educating people. Too many people take the 8lbs above their neck for granted without ever even realizing it. I'll point out ignorance and stupidity wherever I find it. Look where it's gotten us. Enough is enough.

I learn something new every day, and I'm smart enough to know I couldn't possibly know everything. Your the one with all the answers... remember? 


*Intelligent people NEVER stop questioning.


*What questions have you been asking?

Not everyone follows the Quran litterally. (that really should not be new to you..)

I don't have any control over the OT. Your religion is the one clinging to it. I'd sure love to know your justification for dismissing it though... So let's hear it.

Christianity... ALL ORGANIZED RELIGION IS A THREAT TO MANKINDS PROGRESS. 

You're the *only* one saying Islam is peaceful. It's stuff like that why that previous question regarding your mental state was asked.


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## anhedonia (Oct 13, 2009)

A Buddha, once the flame of ignorance is doused, will never be reincarnated. Im not religious, but I believe Buddhism and dharma to be the moral path of man. Enlightenment seems a little more "real" as you can see an enlightened master right in front of you, while with other religions you have to die first and they are much more vague. Practicing meditation for 30 years will transform you, where as praying to creator god all your life will only get you so far if you dont have the right intent. For instance Babs has hate for islam. Detests it and offends. Yet praises own in a very naive and slanted way. Very bad to do. Like I said, telling somone how foul thier shit smells, and at the same time cant relate to the smell from thier own foul ass. How could you get so confused. I try to have a better self awareness about me so I dont make that mistake, and I dont meditate, but meditation will bring things into focus that you were never aware about your self before. Just takes time, effort and right intent.


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## Babs34 (Oct 13, 2009)

Stoney McFried said:


> Hm.I don't know what I find more insulting.The inference that I need common simple language to understand anything or the insinuation that I don't read the posts I'm responding to.In either case, I say both Christianity and Islam have done their share to thwart the progress of mankind.You're angry that we're down on Christians, and yet you're attacking Islam with nearly every post.I'm merely pointing out that folks who worship in glass churches shouldn't throw stones.


 *Stoney, I don't know why you even find anything I posted to you as insulting. *
*Stating that I would use simple language was in no way, form or manner intended to be an insult. It was only to suggest that I wasn't going to go on some flowery Jesus vigilante.*
*I guess you don't recall that you and I had a very calm and positive conversation months ago regarding religion.*
*::can't win for losing on this thread::*
*LOL, where are all the CHRISTIANS?*

*BTW, I think you got those statistics from the web site I put on here. *
*It's kind of silly to compare a percentage of evil verses from the quran vs. the Bible. There is VERY LIMITED writing in the quran as opposed to the Bible.....also not factored in were the Hadiths---which is where a TON of the verses would be sited.*
*I also did not insinuate that you would not read. At that point, I had already repeated myself over and over regarding some things. By the time I had posted, three more people had "challenged" me.*
*Nope Stoney, I'm not mad that "you" (or any one else for that matter) are down on Christians. As far as I'm concerned, mock it til your fingers bleed...no one has the right to never be offended.*
I say both Christianity and Islam have done their share to thwart the progress of mankind.
*.....and I agreed. In fact, several times over.*
*When I began to post, my stance was ALWAYS only that you cannot compare Christ and Mohammad.......you can't. They are extreme opposites.*
*I pointed out to "p" that his being scared of Christianity and our supposed need to take away from his values were without merit.*
*From that moment on......nothing but an attack.*
*And thus the laughter...beats getting upset.*
*Look, I already noted some took a whole lot of time to "break apart" my posts.*
*I'm not even going to read them right now. I DO have a life.*
*I may come back later tonight and respond. I may not.*
*One thing is for damn sure though.......I'm not going to be anyone's slab of meat. *
*Enough of the repeating...like I said, I've got a life. *


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## PadawanBater (Oct 13, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *I'm not going to be anyone's slab of meat. *


 
Then I'd suggest you keep clear of this thread. Your ''logic'' and reasoining skills have been analysed long enough for us all to realise you have no ground to walk on and your bullshit doesn't hold water.


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## krustofskie (Oct 13, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *While some wish to hide under the guise that something simply cannot be true--"because" they don't like the web site as its source----and they are given the NY Times to appease them.....and they STILL wish to make it an argument, exactly WHO is being the troll?*
> *I never said sharia became the common law in Britain.....never. But rather than realize it to be just what it was, it turned back to the "Evil Christians."*


You started by saying how bad things ARE in London. Your first source from the BNP spoke of one congregations wishes, not what is. You don't like me disregarding their information, well would you believe the KKK views on race matters, as the BNP are our equivalent. You second source was (NY Times) was not about the same event rather it was about the views of an individual Christian leader, not a fact of what is actually happening. If you had read my posts you would have gathered this, if you did read and didn't understand me you could have said so and I would have tried to explain a different way. So your sources were not evidence of sharia law in the UK or of how bad things are supposed to be.

I started out just trying to inform you that things are not bad in London like you believe, but it seems you have taken this as a personal attack rather than a debate. Instead of debating with me you resorted to juvenile tactics and ended up just being patronizing.

I know you repeated yourself a lot, I understand that its frustrating, but why keep repeating things that have been shown to you as flawed. If you think its not flawed, point out where I was wrong, educate me, don't treat me in the condescending way you did.

I hope you can distinguish between who you are arguing with as I never once bought your religion into it or bought up Christianity in any way shape or form. I just tried to correct you on your views of how bad things are in London.

If you took the time to read what I wrote, you may have got some insight into where I was coming from and you may have noticed I was trying to explain to you how your "Sources" did not back up your claim of how bad things are in London. Instead you decided to ignore and carry on with your blinkered views.

I welcome you to debate with me further, but when or if there is miscomprehension, explain better, don't just stamp your feat and repeat repeat repeat. If you think someone is wrong or doesn't understand what your saying, people do get the wrong end of the stick sometimes, repeating the same stuff over and over will not help. Try putting things a different way, explain yourself better.

I look forward to your response so we can have a reasonable debate, as I believe we could. If not then all the best to you.


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## morgentaler (Oct 13, 2009)

It's funny that it was stated that you can't compare Jesus and Mohammed, for Islam does just that.
Islam treats Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed as prophets.

Of course both religions have a strong dislike for "unbelievers":

*Quran 4:89* _They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them. _

*New Testament Acts 3:23*
_"And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear the prophet, shall be destroyed."_


And what unbeliever would want to risk messing with a true believer?
_"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." -- Mark 16:17-18_

With so many true believers running around you'd think sickness would be a thing of the past, as would atheism.

What gives me some relief is the idea that atheism in the US has doubled in the last decade, and the number of individuals that identify themselves as Christian has also decreased.

What scares the hell out of me is that hardcore fundamental evangelicals, the kind that get on youtube and advocate murdering me, my family, gays, people who have sex outside of marriage, etc. are rapidly increasing in number.

Here in Canada atheism, or at least plain unthreatening deism, is pretty strong. But the evangelical right are pouring a ton of money into the country to turn us into Bible Belt North.

To me this irrational dogmatic faith is as offensive as racism, because there is no logic to it, and the end result is destruction. It is power corrupted, and hate refined. It's what made the Nazi's strong, and the Communists implacable. As long as blind faith exists, reason is threatened.


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## IAm5toned (Oct 13, 2009)

> To me this irrational dogmatic faith is as offensive as racism, because there is no logic to it, and the end result is destruction. It is power corrupted, and hate refined. It's what made the Nazi's strong, and the Communists implacable. As long as blind faith exists, reason is threatened.


that's good stuff.


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## anhedonia (Oct 13, 2009)

This video will amaze and stun you. Indoctrination of children. I used to live 60 miles down the road from this place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8obTqBa4ZY


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## NOWitall (Oct 13, 2009)

i seen some shit in my day.

while ive never fallen prey to the cults, ive had friends that have, work tightly with some.
and its almost always pretty fucked up. chock full of people wanting to be told what to do, standing in line even. flocking in droves to have some pontificating douche bag shoves a random story about aliens and the Hebrew alphabet up their ass. took me about till lunch to get it figured out, this guy was building a fucking cabin, and needed labor, and somehow he startin yammerin on about his lizardman conspiracy bullshit, and some dumbass stoped to listen. then another, and another. next thing you know theres 80 teatards doin his chores in the name of god. but godamn they made the best fuckin pizza, and smoked chicken, they even cooked tofu in this marinade that made it actualy enjoyable to consume, i was amazed. 

im no fan of religion, and it has definitely slowed progress many times over, but we still needed it. if you look at mankind, people almost always form a religion, ive never heard of a tribe of atheists found in the jungle. so if you have several dissimialiar religions floating around an area, pretty soon people start fightin for whos god/gods are better.

so by unifying by the sword they slowed progress in some ways, but by this unification it opened up trade, and allowed for peace (sometimes) providing time for contemplation and advancement (sometimes). 

its all about scale. i read it somewhere. if you scaled an ant up to the size of a human, it couldnt walk, and wouldnt be able to intake enough oxygen to live. if you scale a human up to the size of a moon it would collapse under its own gravity.

religion and government are like this. take communism, it almost works, and it could work, in a society with 100% complete honesty, even 1% dishonesty and it stops working. when we had bands of tribes, chieftains were the way to go, then as we formed cities we needed elders, then we formed nations and needed kings, then we needed prime ministers and presidents and sheiks and all the rest. things work up 2 a certain size, then they must be modified lest they be replaced with a newer faster model.

hell i love religion, re-legion ?, anyway i love religion especially the new kooky ones. Scientology, i mean dang, common, he was a science fiction writer for love of bob.
but generally you can judge a person on their chosen religion, and by that i mean people that suddenly find religion. cuz sometimes they find some funny ones.
whats wierd is, i know alot of folks that found Jesus at the bottom of a coke vial. odd place to find him i thought.
but if someone says hey i just became a hare-Krishna, you know already this probly isnt gonna be a fun conversation.

gave a fella a ride few months back. asked him what he did.
he said he "brought people good news".
i said "so your unemployed then". 

you wanna know my stand on religion.
my currant religion is.

everybody need somebody.
some folks need more.

thats about it


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## krustofskie (Oct 13, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> This video will amaze and stun you. Indoctrination of children. I used to live 60 miles down the road from this place.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8obTqBa4ZY


This video is quite disturbing. First I cracked up laughing when the woman started talking about Harry Potter. But the reaction of the children, they rearly looked distraught. Indoctrination like this has to be stopped.


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## morgentaler (Oct 14, 2009)

I think you will find "Deborah 13: Servant of God" just as disturbing.
Possibly even more so, as she has been successfully converted and turned into an evangelist so terrified of hell it's all she thinks about.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 14, 2009)

So, you're unemployed then.... good one. My kind of insight. +rep for that alone.


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> conjecture, and lies to make your self look important and self justified- ill shoot you down, again, just for old times sake, how bout that. here we go:
> 
> 1) *You amuse me "Iamstoned." Trolling, you say?*
> *An interesting thing to note here(which I am sure will be conveniently overlooked) is the title of this thread.*
> ...


*1) If the title of this thread had NOTHING to do with Judisam, Christianity or islam, why then was it being trashed prior to my arrival? It has everything to do with any thing pertaining to religions and/or beliefs. I'd suggest you re-think that absurdity.*

*2) This is not a matter of not being able to handle an opposing view. People have opposing views in life in general.....that's just life. *
*As I said, I don't make it habit to even read these kinds of threads. The only reason I even posted was because of the ridiculous statement regarding Christians.*
*Furthermore, I spent over two years of my life on a DAILY basis dealing with people who have EXTREME opposing views. Get over yourself.*
*Oh, and one last time...I just recalled you being the biggest reason I had to repeat myself...I DO NOT DEBATE CHRIST. There's no need to. His words speak for itself.....no need to either debate or defend them.*



*3)LOL, well, 3 is just altogether ridiculous. I won't be reflecting several pages back to see if I typed that, BUT......if I did, it was SO obviously a typo.......as I had already said the WORLD more than enough times by then.*
*That wasn't even a defense on your part.  You weren't educating or offering any substance there.....only wasting my time...as you are now.*
*---pause here for a moment, forgot to address this one--*conjecture, and lies to make your self look important and self justified- ill shoot you down, again, just for old times sake, how bout that. here we go:
*Who is trying to look important here? YOU. I just realized that it was YOU who was going on ad nauseam and making me repeat myself. I think I may have jumped on someone else thinking it was you as a matter of fact. You were posting the same damn question every few seconds. If I did ream someone for your action, I'll have to go back and see who it is I should apologize to.*
*You'll shoot me down again? I wasn't aware you had shot me down the first time......NOR was I aware that you and I in some way are old-timers. LOL,* "ill shoot you down, again, just for old times sake.
*I can't even take you seriously. You are proving yourself a liar.*
*4) What am I guilty of here that you say I should apologize to you? I was envisioning that for a fleeting moment. What kind of jerk post every few seconds the same question? Then while you were working on posting the same ridiculous question, "P" is busy with his rants about the evil Christians. I'm still waiting for his addressing my point. He never did post all those evil verses from Christ. It impossible to stay on track under such ridiculous circumstances.....which NO ONE ever did. Not a one of you was ever able to acknowledge the truth of what I said.......that Christ is peace. Mohammad is destruction. This was reference to the very simple DOCTRINE. Forget about the stone ages for crying out loud. We don't live in them any longer. Islam will have you reverting back to them, as should be evident.*
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Babs34*  
_LOL, save it dude......I'm envisioning you making bets with your bud Panda on how long you can keep me commenting......I didn't get past the first three words....."hadith" for ya. _

*Laughter is wonderful medicine. I should apologize to you for it? Nope, won't do it. I was saying that I was ignoring, at least for that time, either yours or P's post because it was either lengthy and obviously a rant (or a repeat) I didn't wish to address immediately....or ever for that matter, LOL.*
*Apologize for it? Surely you jest.*
*The "evidence" goes SEVERAL pages back. You instigate by repetition. It is YOU who does not read responses. HAD YOU (or p)DONE SO, the repitetive back and forth BS would never have taken place.*

*5) I never specifically said that you did. It was the ever so very sweet pandabear that said Christians and Christianity are both scary.....sigh, here I am repeating myself yet AGAIN.*
*MY CASE AND POINT.......finally take note*
*By doctrine ALONE, what is there to be scared of, Christians or Muslims? The fact you don't know concerns me...as well it should.*

*5) You had TWO fives, so "5".......AGAIN, lol.*
*If insults don't validate a point, then why do it? I find it VERY insulting that you wasted so much of my time already, and here you do it again. My time is very limited and VERY valuable to me. You want me to apologize for laughing because that insulted you? *

*6) *response- you should remember that this country was founded on the premise of religious freedom... i take the post i quoted from you as sarcasm. Again, i say you are a fascist, or express fascist views and tolerences.
*Big correction here: YOU should remember that this country was based on FREEDOM.....period, POINT BLANK. Islam offers no freedom. You, along with so many, don't realize JUST HOW MUCH SO.*
*Mohammad is considered to be the PERFECT man in Islam....as Christ is in Christianity. You don't understand that this IS mainstream Islam. This isn't my opinion. This is FACT. The misconceptions you have of islam are DANGEROUS*.

*When a muslim regards their religion as peaceful, they are referring to the peace that comes when the whole world obeys islamic law. *
*We are in danger of losing and having islamic law imposed, which denies every last right you take for granted. This is already a very real possibility in Europe in the near future.*
*Islam means SUBMISSION. It is divided into two parts.One is dar al islam...world of islam. Then there is dar al harb--the world at war. If you're not under islam, you are at war with the unbelievers. War with the unbelievers is MANDATED by allah.*
*The Jesus of the quran has their (Isa) aka Jesus....obviously as a muslim.  Isa is coming back to kill me according to islam. (because I am a Christian) When you hear of muslims worldwide calling for a caliphate, be ALARMED. You just don't understand that is not a mere "religion." Until you realize how MAINSTREAM Islam TRULY operates, don't defend what you don't understand. Terrorists are not practicing any other form of Islam. They are just TRULY practicing it. No religion hijack theory...no leg to stand on.*
*You and P, among others, are adamant in believing Christians threaten your lifestyle. I merely pointed out they were the least of your concerns.*
*BTW, Christians have progressed since the 11th century.  *
*That was yet ANOTHER thing I was made to repeat. What didn't you understand the first time around? While "P" is sitting there ranting about the past of Christianity, what does he really think he's proving? He has as much chance as I as having ancestors during that time claiming to be Christians, but doing the work of the devil. STILL, he has not acknowledged what I asked him to do. He can't claim Christians evil today because of the past....I guess you don't and will never see just ridiculous that is. The "christians" of that time were NOT acting under Christianity. The jihad taking place NOW is not to be misconstrued as "extremists." They are mandated to war with non-believers. Not one single muslim doesn't realize that in order to come to that "peace" that it will come by any way other than war. When you hear muslims worldwide calling for their caliphate, BE WARNED. You just have no idea how they view what is passing before your eyes in the news. In fact, I don't care which news does it for you......cnn/fox. Neither one of them is broadcasting the ugly truth as it needs to be shown. To do so, WOULD cause mass hysteria.*
*Why else would Bush say Islam is a peaceful religion right after 911? That was nothing short of a LIE.*

*Damn, what number am I on? :roll eyes:*
*6) *response- you should remember that this country was founded on the premise of religious freedom... i take the post i quoted from you as sarcasm. Again, i say you are a fascist, or express fascist views and tolerences.
*And I say you wake up and smell the coffee and go read. And for the time(s) when I was called a "racist", guess what? Islam is NOT a race. *

7)response- your doing the same thing to muslims. welcome to the club, man! 

What I have done is to more than analyze Islam/Muslims. *I studied it because I just didn't really believe that the quran I was reading online was legitimate. I thought SURELY once I got the "real" quran, I would understand it differently. After COUNTLESS hours of studying and interacting with them, I realized what had initially shocked me only became more shocking through the course of research*.* I don't debate their religion simply because I think it's goofy. It is a danger to the entire world. The whole world just doesn't get it......"yet." *
*A better way to expend your time would be to obtain the resources yourself instead of wasting valuable time being scared of Christians. I know there are some goofy people out there claiming to be Christians. Some of them scare me too....but only briefly. I find it hard to even take them seriously. Save your time with proving they exist. The subject was mo/islam vs. Christ/Christianity. If one or the other were to be indoctrinated upon society, it's beyond obvious which way would bring world peace vs. world chaos.*

* And wouldn't you know this goes all the way to 10? *
*Know this is the last lengthy response you'll ever get from me.*

response- thank goodness. i wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing the evil muslims are going to rise up and take over the world, and dress my children in muslim clothes and kill everyone that opposes them; because that's what you try so desperately to prove here.
*You probably wouldn't be able to sleep at night if you fully understood the doctrine or their beliefs. You obviously don't care to learn either. I suppose it's more convenient not to know the truth for you. I don't have to DESPERATELY try to prove anything here. Islam IS EXTREMELY dangerous......to EVERY LAST NON-MUSLIM. Don't believe me? Get back to me after you've done your homework. It proves itself.*
*It's not up for debate.*

*9) *response- which is why i question you. all of your posts are conjecture, you source nothing, and resort to personal attacks when opposed. 
*I believe I already addressed that.......YET AGAIN. *

*10) Thank GOD you stopped here. HUGGGGGGGGGGE EYEROLL*
*Being I don't view Buddha as being God, I see him rolling in his grave.*
*Every thing I do know of Buddhism is good. I honestly haven't studied it. I know they aren't at war with us..they sure don't seem like they will ever pose a threat to my freedom. That's good enough for me. I don't care "where" you find God, so long as it doesn't threaten society as a whole.*


Well if you had done any of the studying your constantly preaching about you might want to consider the fact that buddha may be reincarnated.. and not rolling in his grave. 
*You have proven yourself to be a liar more than once now. Never did I preach....on the contrary.*

I rest my case. * You mean to say you had one?*

*Since I have wasted my time responding to "this"......I'll have to read the others later.*
*Gee, I can't wait. *
*I'll end it with this...*
Originally Posted by *Babs34*  
_*DUHHHHHHHHHHHHH, ANOTHER REPEAT........IMAGINE THAT.*
*LAST TIME.........VERY SLOW.*
*I *
*DO *
*NOT*
*TAKE*
*THE*
*OT*
*AS *
*THE *
*LITERAL*
*WORD*
*OF *
*GOD.*
*Will that suffice as your final answer?*
*Damn, you guys just need to start a Christian bashing thread. You're working overtime, but you'll never EVER.........EVERRRRRRRRRRRRR be able to claim Christ EVIL.*_

someone getting a little frustrated?

 
__________________


----------



## morgentaler (Oct 14, 2009)

I posted quotes from the New Testament, but I'm not sure if they were in this thread.
One addressed Jesus advocating the murder of children who talked back to their parents, condoning the Old Testament approach.
The other said that unbelievers would be destroyed.

Peace, my ass.

Did you know that Mohammed also preached peace and harmony? Theologians dating the writing of the Quran put the chapters in the approximate order they were written, and it appeared that the peaceful dialogs took place when the religion was just starting out, and that as it gained power they became more and more violent.

It doesn't matter if a religion promises nothing but fluffy bunnies and tootsie rolls for eternity. If it's selling dishonesty, get rid of it.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 14, 2009)

I'm not surprised at Christians outrage at Islam. they are on the Christian hit list with the Jews.... and anyone else who stands in their way of global cultism.

Islam also is used this way, but only by the extreme fringes. The Christians get their pattern of cultism straight from the Church..... mainstream church.


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I'm not surprised at Christians outrage at Islam. they are on the Christian hit list with the Jews.... and anyone else who stands in their way of global cultism.
> 
> Islam also is used this way, but only by the extreme fringes. The Christians get their pattern of cultism straight from the Church..... mainstream church.


*"the church" ??? "mainstream".....sorry, you lost me. Every last thought I have regarding religion stems only from the teachings of Christ....what I willingly read. I didn't have to memorize and recite it either for what that's worth. *
*I also don't have to every time mentioning the name Jesus follow it with peace be upon him. His name IS PEACE. Even mo knew at times he was possesed. Now he has a billion plus muslims praying for him, LOL.....THAT part is comical to me. Mohammad was one egotistical sob.....even from his grave.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> I posted quotes from the New Testament, but I'm not sure if they were in this thread.
> One addressed Jesus advocating the murder of children who talked back to their parents, condoning the Old Testament approach.
> The other said that unbelievers would be destroyed.
> 
> ...


Would you care to show me where he preached the peace and harmony? I already know of the only couple of sources you could possibly get that. But guess what? You can't proclaim yourself peaceful by saying "there is no compulsion in religion"...while endlessly declaring jihad and teaching your followers to fight/subject/kill those who refuse to believe. Kind of hypocritical, wouldn't you say?
And you are wrong. The quran has NO order, NONE. It's read by order in length of the surah (chapter)
Every last "revelation" Mohammad had was taken from the Jews. He just switched everyting up to his liking....historical fact. 
Jesus said murder children who talk back? Wow, you're tripping. Go look that one up. You're really lost there.
Are you referring to spare the rod, spoil the child? If so, what kid have you ever known that didn't need a good ass-whoopin in one way or the other at SOME point in their lives? I can't wait to see how I'm accused of abuse now, LOL.

You think it's because they were becoming more powerful, that they were being victimized for it? LOL, now come on. I don't know where you got this version of Islam, but you are off 100 percent already.

They had already been attacking the Jews at that time.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> A Buddha, once the flame of ignorance is doused, will never be reincarnated. Im not religious, but I believe Buddhism and dharma to be the moral path of man. Enlightenment seems a little more "real" as you can see an enlightened master right in front of you, while with other religions you have to die first and they are much more vague. Practicing meditation for 30 years will transform you, where as praying to creator god all your life will only get you so far if you dont have the right intent. For instance Babs has hate for islam. Detests it and offends. Yet praises own in a very naive and slanted way. Very bad to do. Like I said, telling somone how foul thier shit smells, and at the same time cant relate to the smell from thier own foul ass. How could you get so confused. I try to have a better self awareness about me so I dont make that mistake, and I dont meditate, but meditation will bring things into focus that you were never aware about your self before. Just takes time, effort and right intent.


 *I have the right intent alright. I intend to protect my right........to live.*
For instance Babs has hate for islam. Detests it and offends. Yet praises own in a very naive and slanted way. Very bad to do. *Like I said, telling somone how foul thier shit smells, and at the same time cant relate to the smell from thier own foul ass. How could you get so confused. *I try to have a better self awareness about me so I dont make that mistake, and I dont meditate, but meditation will bring things into focus that you were never aware about your self before. Just takes time, effort and right intent.[/QUOTE]
*HOW did you get so confused?*
*REPEAT: Christ is good, mo isn't. Try proving otherwise. As much as I know you desperately wish to debate this topic....you CAN'T.*
*Mo's shit REEEEEKS. As far as my ass is concerned, I never claimed myself to be perfect, your point? And I certainly never tried to take any one to Jesus.*
*Too many in here keep trying to throw things in that are coming from nowhere. *
*On that note, you just plain stink.*


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 14, 2009)

> Get back to me after you've done your homework. It proves itself.
> It's not up for debate.


you assume that your point of view is the only one... again your a fascist.
good luck proving your point using that logic.

i LOL at you


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> Then I'd suggest you keep clear of this thread. Your ''logic'' and reasoining skills have been analysed long enough for us all to realise you have no ground to walk on and your bullshit doesn't hold water.


 *You don't intimidate me..*
*even if you are half as ugly as your avatar with that lovely personality of yours.*
*Re-think loosely calling others retards. There may very well be parents on RIU who have retarded children....obviously they can't help it.*
*You insult the word with its use.*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> you assume that your point of view is the only one... again your a fascist.
> good luck proving your point using that logic.
> 
> i LOL at you


 *Yikes, did you just repeat yourself again. Why yes you did.*


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 14, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Yikes, did you just repeat yourself again. Why yes you did.*


well since you seem to be doing such a good job of posting your fascist views over and over and over again i figured i might as well hop on the bandwagon and point out every time you make a fascist remark.
keep it coming, this is actually quite entertaining for me, i love using logic and fact to disprove your obviously biased points.  <~~thats me, still laughing at you


----------



## OregonMeds (Oct 14, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *"the church" ??? "mainstream".....sorry, you lost me. Every last thought I have regarding religion stems only from the teachings of Christ....what I willingly read. I didn't have to memorize and recite it either for what that's worth. *
> *I also don't have to every time mentioning the name Jesus follow it with peace be upon him. His name IS PEACE. Even mo knew at times he was possesed. Now he has a billion plus muslims praying for him, LOL.....THAT part is comical to me. Mohammad was one egotistical sob.....even from his grave.*


You've never seen nor heard christ and he didn't teach you anything at all about anything let alone being a cristian. How do I know this? Because he never even knew anything about being a cristian period all he knew and all he ever practiced was Judaism. 

Men made up cristianity after his death when Jesus supposedly didn't ever condone starting a new religion in the first place. Had he wanted a new religion, I think we'd have heard about him starting it and practicing it and giving up being a Jew and that also didn't happen. 

Another thing that didn't happen, is nobody wrote down one single word of his verbatim ever. He didn't create a single tradition in the catholic church, it's all bullshit. Eat his flesh and drink his blood you think that was his idea it's not it's from previous pagan religions.


Men made up all the words and all the stories in your bible. (men that were writing those words for previous religions before christ even existed, your bibles words aren't even original they are mostly stolen and have not even a hint of any actual christ in them.) The words that aren't directly stolen, like say anything having to do with jesus, are by your own accounts descriptions that were handed down word of mouth from some dude with no education to another to another then supposedly written down when it finally got to someone with an education. How many stories more than two words long could you accurately pass through two or three generations of uneducated ignorant people and a third educated one and spanning over a hundred years before they were written down and then get on paper correctly?


So let me ask then by what method have you learned anything from Jesus? And how do you figure you can laugh at muhammed/Islam when your own story has more holes in it than that one?


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 14, 2009)

oregonmeds... and this is the same guy that confesses to be a devout christian.  <~~~ still laughing at him


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## PadawanBater (Oct 14, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *You don't intimidate me..
> even if you are half as ugly as your avatar with that lovely personality of yours.
> Re-think loosely calling others retards. There may very well be parents on RIU who have retarded children....obviously they can't help it.
> You insult the word with its use.
> ...


 
And obviously, you must be retarded if you can't understand the difference in context I've been using the word in. Not to mention I am honestly (whether you believe it or not) concerned with your mental state. You ring a lot of warning bells Babs, just so you know. 

To your claim that everything in Islam was coppied "from the Jews", which according to you is "historical fact"... (source?). Are you trying to tell me that Christianity is completely original? Is that what you're saying? Also, if it was coppied "from the Jews", then shouldn't you be bitching just as much about Judaism??? Telling all of us how insanely wrong and crazy Jews are? How dangerous they are? How they wish to take over the WORLD?! 

If you can look at the teachings of Christianity and not see the hypocricy involved, then what on earth makes you think I would think you even understand what that word means? 
You wanna know what is the BIGGEST most epic piece of hypocricy I've EVER come across?... Ready?... Wait for it.... ..... .........

"Thou shalt not kill" - BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Good one God!


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> You started by saying how bad things ARE in London. Your first source from the BNP spoke of one congregations wishes, not what is. You don't like me disregarding their information, well would you believe the KKK views on race matters, as the BNP are our equivalent. You second source was (NY Times) was not about the same event rather it was about the views of an individual Christian leader, not a fact of what is actually happening. If you had read my posts you would have gathered this, if you did read and didn't understand me you could have said so and I would have tried to explain a different way. So your sources were not evidence of sharia law in the UK or of how bad things are supposed to be.
> 
> I started out just trying to inform you that things are not bad in London like you believe, but it seems you have taken this as a personal attack rather than a debate. Instead of debating with me you resorted to juvenile tactics and ended up just being patronizing.
> 
> ...


*Krust, bear in mind I'm not likely in the same region of the world as you. That was LATE LATE night for me. I would have to go back to even see what I posted.*
*Regardless, muslims are calling for a caliphate.....they are desperately attempting to instill sharia around the globe. They are succeeding too. They will not stop until islam rules the world. **To try to bring the numerous examples would be SO tiring and time consuming. I've actually stopped reading the news, watching it AND studying islam. I've learned more than enough to know what I need to. I've no intention of becoming a scholar.*
*I swear I still don't have time to go back and rehash this thread.*
*But I do think it's you that I probably WAS rude to...if so, I apologize.*
*Where my intention was only to respond to how ridiculous it is to fear Christian doctrine, it turned into a headache and a waste of my time.*

*If sharia law "exists" in Britain, even if just for muslims use, it has been incorporated into that society, like it or not..as a cancer getting ready to take off in full force.*

*I realize you see everything I'm saying here as "dramatic"....I've no wish to debate. As I said, I EXHAUSTED myself with muslims who DID know the quran/religion.....and some who did not. You have no idea how strong their resolve is and what they are willing to do to obtain it...some simply on a more quieted level.*
*No one here has truly read it as is evident.*
*I WON'T debate Islam...if you can read, it's all there. The problem is no one wants to take the time to figure out what they are defending.*
*That frustrates me....*
*You don't know what you are saying when you say you will tolerate it........NO IDEA how you are inadvertently helping them with their cause.*
*I have no "desperate" need to prove it as "iamstoned" accused me of. Society has a desperate need to SEE it, for THEMSELVES.*
*So, in short, I'm not going to debate what people have not even actually studied. Life is too short to waste more time in my life with that.*
*Looking back at the thread, you are fair in saying I came across as being condescending.....and for that, I will apologize. I believe it got to the point where I couldn't even keep up with the name of who was posting.*
*It was completely ridiculous for others to keep the focus where it didn't belong. I may have at times been posting to the wrong post for all I know. As I said, I should have been in bed...not acknowledging particular others posts.*
*There was a time where I would have had no problem with discussing whatever you wished regarding Islam. I've said it on another thread. I'm ashamed of how much time I put into studying it.....I don't wish to even admit to it.....*
*Without going into detail, studying and following it took a toll on me. "Iamstoned" wishes to make a mockery out of losing sleep at night. The truth is that is the very reason NOT to study it....it's very convenient to stay in la la land and pretend islam is not imminently endangering their freedom.*
*I wiped my computer completely of that evil shit......ALONG with all of my notes. It would make it so much harder to debate without them.*
*Every person posting to me has proven they have been sold a version of islam that just isn't real.......and every last one of you is capable of reading it for yourself. Buy the quran, hadiths.....or choose to ignore it. If the time is actually taken to do so, I definitely will not be accused of being an alarmist. Obviously your choice. Mere words just don't describe it and I just won't take the time to debate it, because honest to God....it would be reliving evil having to even acknowledge it.*
*A part of me was so frustrated I had rid of those notes......but I keep remembering why I did. I knew if I had them, I would use them TO debate. *
*Some things you just don't debate. Islam's one of them. You just learn about it...that is if you truly have the stomach and patience to.*
*I realize I probably just rambled right now and could have said more with less....the truth is I am going on little sleep. The truth is "iamastoned" is right. I lost sleep.....not because I was some shivering little paranoid girl as he would pose it......but because I consumed SO much of my life for a period of time learning ABOUT it. Coming face to face with what it is will change you. For that reason, I'm certain many will not take the time to find out for themselves. *
*Even addressing the topic briefly, it sickens me and I become literally nauseous. It sucks the life out of me acknowledging the truth of islam.*
*So read it.....if you dare. Study what it is that you or others are defending and inviting not only to your life, but your children and all their future generations. *
*I'm accused of being an alarmist.....obviously I am frustrated. A huge part of me wishes to go back and take the time so as to have the notes at hand.....but I just can't.*
*It will make any remotely sane individual lose some sleep. Make no mistake about that "iamstoned."*
*Again, I apologize for having been condescending. I just wished to explain where my frustration stemmed from.*
*That's just entirely TOO much to address on a forum and when I don't have the necessary notes at hand, makes it exceedingly difficult to do.*
*I fear that by the time I have posted this, several more responses will be in order. I'm sorry......no time.*
*In the mean time Krustofskie, I wish all my best to you as well. *


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 14, 2009)

Oregon.... good post.... and that's been said about ten times now off and on..... 

It's like logic quicksand...


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> And obviously, you must be retarded if you can't understand the difference in context I've been using the word in. Not to mention I am honestly (whether you believe it or not) concerned with your mental state. You ring a lot of warning bells Babs, just so you know.
> 
> To your claim that everything in Islam was coppied "from the Jews", which according to you is "historical fact"... (source?). Are you trying to tell me that Christianity is completely original? Is that what you're saying? Also, if it was coppied "from the Jews", then shouldn't you be bitching just as much about Judaism??? Telling all of us how insanely wrong and crazy Jews are? How dangerous they are? How they wish to take over the WORLD?!
> 
> ...


 *And low and behold as soon as I post...what do I see?*
*Pandaboy, look.....you are a LIAR too. You said you were going to put me on ignore.*
*Thou shalt not kill.....exactly....as if you have a point either.*
*Quit projecting ...you are slow, repetitive and ignorant.*
*Hey genius.....you still can't back up anything you claim.*
*The OT is nothing but a recount of history according to prophets. They royally screwed it up. How slow can one be? I DON'T TAKE THE OT AS THE LITERAL WORD OF GOD.*
*Muslims DO take the quran as the LITERAL word of God.*
*You are such an angry person. Take your negative energy and expend it elsewhere.*


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## IAm5toned (Oct 14, 2009)

babs-- if you had come off like that in the first place you would have avoided most of the drama that followed after your first post.....................

its easy to understand the emotional response that follows when someone attacks your point of view if thats how you feel, but it doesnt justify the insults and condenscending attacks you made when people rebuked your claims.



> Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Galatians 6:7 KJV)


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

Use that energy to learn something new.....the end


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

*well, almost, LOL......Good God, you are always there LURKING and posting non-stop when I am here IMMEDIATELY responding. If it's not you, it's your buddy "iamstoned." *
*That's eerie......and you both call me a troll, LOL.*
*You're one to speak of hypocrisy dear. *


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> babs-- if you had come off like that in the first place you would have avoided most of the drama that followed after your first post.....................
> 
> its easy to understand the emotional response that follows when someone attacks your point of view if thats how you feel, but it doesnt justify the insults and condenscending attacks you made when people rebuked your claims.


*Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Galatians 6:7 KJV)* ,___I believe this one.. take the hint.
"later"


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## OregonMeds (Oct 14, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Oregon.... good post.... and that's been said about ten times now off and on.....
> 
> It's like logic quicksand...


Well they say it takes most people hearing something 7 times to learn it. For crisitians that number might be a lot higher.  Not that I'm saying cristians are stupid (I keep that to myself usually) I Just think they have a supernatural ability to only hear and consider whatever suits them.


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## anhedonia (Oct 14, 2009)

I think Christ would be cooler if his sacrafice was instead of suffering through a mortal body, which can be trancended, he should have been the only being who was to suffer an unimaginable torment for time and eternity, hell, so that no other being could ever be in such a state. But its still completely impossible.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 14, 2009)

Hey, adult Christians.... I was one.... meaning I wasn't raised to be an atheist.... it's not an issue in the family today....

Adult Christians as with most religions, have been indoctrinated practically from birth. I would bet a hefty percentage have many doubts, but for the sake of family and/or parents/elders find it easier to simply play along.


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## MexicanWarlord420 (Oct 14, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> I think Christ would be cooler if his sacrafice was instead of suffering through a mortal body, which can be trancended, he should have been the only being who was to suffer an unimaginable torment for time and eternity, hell, so that no other being could ever be in such a state. But its still completely impossible.


Christianity couldn't have that because then how would they indoctrinate you?


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> You've never seen nor heard christ and he didn't teach you anything at all about anything let alone being a cristian. How do I know this? Because he never even knew anything about being a cristian period all he knew and all he ever practiced was Judaism.
> 
> Men made up cristianity after his death when Jesus supposedly didn't ever condone starting a new religion in the first place. Had he wanted a new religion, I think we'd have heard about him starting it and practicing it and giving up being a Jew and that also didn't happen.
> 
> ...


 *:::COUGH::*
*Of course Christ was not a Christian.  I can't take this seriously from here...sorry. Christ is Christ. Christians are followers. *
*What does it take for any of you to realize that Christ will not be debated by me. Quit wasting your breath. *
*If I want to chime in at some point, I'll let you know. *
*LOL, really,,please stop. *
*Why does it matter to you if it's real or not? And who are you to say I've NOT had encounters with Christ?*
*Why would this even POSSIBLY "concern" you. At least if it's a fairy tale, it's a nice fairy tale......and it doesn't affect you in any negative way.*
*Geez...people don't read.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> well since you seem to be doing such a good job of posting your fascist views over and over and over again i figured i might as well hop on the bandwagon and point out every time you make a fascist remark.
> keep it coming, this is actually quite entertaining for me, i love using logic and fact to disprove your obviously biased points.  <~~thats me, still laughing at you


*And I'm done with you. You just keep proving how asinine you truly are.*


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## OregonMeds (Oct 14, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *:::COUGH::*
> *Of course Christ was not a Christian.  I can't take this seriously from here...sorry. Christ is Christ. Christians are followers. *
> *What does it take for any of you to realize that Christ will not be debated by me. Quit wasting your breath. *
> *If I want to chime in at some point, I'll let you know. *
> ...


It's as if you have some uncanny ability to ignore things that don't fit your beliefs... 

It's like dejavu I swear I said you'd do that before you did. Maybe that makes me a psychic athiest.


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## IAm5toned (Oct 14, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *And I'm done with you. You just keep proving how asinine you truly are.*


and how is that? id like clarification please?


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## anhedonia (Oct 14, 2009)

Another reason Buddhism allures me is because you can acctually see somone, through eeg, shutting down ALL of thier brainwaves. I forget what thats called, but alot of practitioners can do it. Another example is the tibetan practice of tumo, where usually monastics sit outside in the snow draped with wet sheets and through intense meditation will heat thier bodies until the sheets are completely dry. Also the circle of melted snow around the practitioner will show the intensity of thier meditation.


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> oregonmeds... and this is the same guy that confesses to be a devout christian.  <~~~ still laughing at him


 *Keep laughing, it's her, moron. *
*See how well you follow. *


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

*and go find where I say I am devout...once a liar, always a liar.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Oregon.... good post.... and that's been said about ten times now off and on.....
> 
> It's like logic quicksand...


 *And you just keep impressing me less and less CJ.*
*Why your need to chime in with this BS?...NOT the disbelief, just the bs.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> It's as if you have some uncanny ability to ignore things that don't fit your beliefs...
> 
> It's like dejavu I swear I said you'd do that before you did. Maybe that makes me a psychic athiest.


 Keep saying that while EVERYONE PROVES MY POINT.........
BY IGNORING ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHA
LET'S ALL COUNT HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE SAID CHRIST IS NOT A DEBATE NOW.
NAHHHHHHHHH, NOT WORTH IT.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


----------



## anhedonia (Oct 14, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> Keep saying that while EVERYONE PROVES MY POINT.........
> BY IGNORING ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHA
> LET'S ALL COUNT HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE SAID CHRIST IS NOT A DEBATE NOW.
> NAHHHHHHHHH, NOT WORTH IT.
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Who cares. Christ.


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> Who cares. Christ.


*Yeap....aren't you the little comedian. Hardy* *HAR HAR*

*But seriously CJ, I've seen a side of you that is just "not right."*
*You have GONE OUT OF YOUR WAY TO DEFEND ISLAM/MUSLIMS........AND out of your way to BELITTLE Christianity.*
*You are defending something INdefensible and you know only a very little about. *
*You claim to know A LOT about Christianity......but still choose to defend islam....EVEN OPENLY WELCOME IT........sharia, the whole nine yards.*
*Something VERY not right about that.*
*AT ALL.*


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## IAm5toned (Oct 14, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> Keep saying that while EVERYONE PROVES MY POINT.........
> BY IGNORING ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHA
> LET'S ALL COUNT HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE SAID CHRIST IS NOT A DEBATE NOW.
> NAHHHHHHHHH, NOT WORTH IT.
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


there he goes with the insults again

i said he on purpose, because it vexes you so  still laughing

wait, thats not right... sorry let me fix it:

there he goes with that condenscending tone again


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## OregonMeds (Oct 14, 2009)

Yes I'm really all twisted up by insults... 

Babs I don't think you're seeing what CJ's trying to prove. It's all going right over your head or something.

My guess is he's only defending islam to show you how absurd cristianity is, but so far nobody's putting two and two together.

Just a guess...


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> there he goes with the insults again
> 
> i said he on purpose, because it vexes you so  still laughing
> 
> ...


* I see you over in your corner stoned........lonely and bored....with your condensending tone there.*
*A little something to hold you over. *
*islam DEFINED TO A TEE*
*Fascism*
often capitalizeda political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
Now go look up mahdi before you think you're going to be posting something ingenious to me......AGAIN.


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## PadawanBater (Oct 14, 2009)

> muslims are calling for a caliphate.....they are desperately attempting to instill sharia around the globe. They are succeeding too. They will not stop until islam rules the world.
> I've actually stopped reading the news, watching it AND studying islam. I've learned more than enough to know what I need to.
> my intention was only to respond to how ridiculous it is to fear Christian doctrine
> *I WON'T debate Islam...if you can read, it's all there. The problem is no one wants to take the time to figure out what they are defending.*
> ...


OK Babs, I'm trying to be civil here. I'm not coming with any hostility at all, I'm sitting here smoking a bowl just chilling out on this rainy day. Where would we be if we just kept arguing back and fourth... nowhere, each of us wouldn't gain anything from either interaction, so lets put some meaning into it. I'm going to explain my views to you as honest as possible, I need you to read it and consider my perspective, or the perspective of the individuals I talk about, otherwise you won't be able to understand where I'm coming from or why I believe the things I do. It's a good excercise, so just give it a try.

OK, you said Muslims are trying to take over the world. I personally do not feel very threatened by Islam taking over the world. Same goes for Christianity, I don't think these things can "take over the world" in any kind of real sense. 85% of America is "Christian" and I still don't feel like me or my beliefs are being "taken over by Christianity". Like I said before about the appearance of Islam, you and I both know how dangerous it is, most of the western world is in agreement as well. We know it's a barbaric ritualistic cult. It's so highly unlikely for Islam to become even a major threat to us, our values, our legal system, anything, that it's not even really worth mentioning. Fuck Sharia law, any atheist or rational thinking person would *never* submit to that, ever, under no circumstances. I can't even imagine why you would think someone could actually *FORCE* Sharia law upon us. 

You can NEVER know enough about something. 

I don't think it's ridiculous at all to fear Christian doctrine. For a few reasons, but you said you didn't want to discuss Christianity, and this thread's not about that, so I'll leave it at that.

Again, I've never defended Islam. I am in complete agreement with you that it is dangerous. 

I can tolerate tolerance, but I'll never tolerate intollerance, what you suggest with the domination of Islam in the western world is explicitly in conflict with tolerance, therefor, I would NOT tolerate it. 

I didn't say I was going to put you on ignore, I said "consider yourself ignored"... then something along the lines of "I'm only going to use you now as a jumping off point for Christian stupidity...". Here, I'll go get the quote... fuck it, can't seem to find it right now... Anyway, wanna retract that?

Not all Muslims take the Quran as the litteral word of Allah. Will you at least acknowledge that much?

Religion, as an atheist, affects my life on a daily basis.


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## IAm5toned (Oct 14, 2009)

never said i wasnt bored... but as far as lonely i have you to keep me company for the time being it seems.
but to point out the obvious- you said it yourself in the definition-


> a political philosophy





> My tolerance is on empty now.





> *If you truly are more scared of what is being taught via the words of Christ as opposed to the teachings of Mohammad, there is something severely wrong with you---believer or not.*





> *I can't make islam or any other religion disappear. What I CAN do is to know better than to invite their way of life into my country*



uh huh.... not a fascist? i beg to differ. those are your own words


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## CrackerJax (Oct 14, 2009)

*Fascism*
often capitalizeda political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) 


> that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition




*That definition fits the Vatican TO A TEE!!

Yes, Oregon, that was my point. We keep going over the same ground and getting nowhere.
*


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## IAm5toned (Oct 14, 2009)

agreed. the vatican would gain alot of credibilty if they would abandon there mission of SPREADING the word and try LIVING the word they spread.
but what fun is a world without hypocrisy


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## CrackerJax (Oct 14, 2009)

The church is basically a socialist theocracy.


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## Stoney McFried (Oct 14, 2009)

Well, it's hard to tell what attitude is being presented over the net;my bad.I recall we had a very calm conversation, most certainly.But I do disagree that we should fear Islam more than Christianity.For one thing, Christianity is much more present in day to day American life.So it wins just by proximity.If I were nearer the middle east, I'm sure you'd hear me bitching about Islam.


Babs34 said:


> *Stoney, I don't know why you even find anything I posted to you as insulting. *
> *Stating that I would use simple language was in no way, form or manner intended to be an insult. It was only to suggest that I wasn't going to go on some flowery Jesus vigilante.*
> *I guess you don't recall that you and I had a very calm and positive conversation months ago regarding religion.*
> *::can't win for losing on this thread::*
> ...


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## morgentaler (Oct 14, 2009)

Re: Mohammed. I'll have to hunt it down. I believe it was referenced in The End of Faith, but that's one of several audiobooks I have and I'll have to find a textual reference.

Remember that Mohammed spent the first three to five years just hanging out and writing scripture and trying to win over followers. Oh, there's no doubt he was an incredible asshole, but like any cult you win over your initial followers with honey, not swords.

Anyway, the book indicated that the Quran was restructured by the clerics to an order they found more suitable. Heavily edited, just like the bible.

http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/24/online.bible/

As for Jesus's quote, this is the third time I've posted this in response to the merry Christian group in these various threads, and each time it's ignored so another straw man can be torched:

_*15:1* Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,__*15:2* Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.__*15:3* But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?__*15:4* For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.__*15:5* But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 
*15:6* And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition._

He is directly chastising them for making a commandment of God have no effect, by not murdering the child who speaks back.

How very Christian of him.

And no, I'm not about to accuse you of abuse. I have no evidence to that effect. I'd accuse you of ignorance of the words of your own prophet.

But really, it's not a big deal. Historically we can see that Mohammed was crazy, dangerous, and real. Jesus, on the other hand was just crazy and dangerous. The whole real part is still pretty much unproven, due to the lack of evidence in the historial record.

You also might want to consider that by the time Mohammed was born, Chrisianity was already imperialist and spreading thanks to Constantine, and what Christians and Jews would consider attacks might have been considered retribution by the Muslims. I'm not taking sides on that. Just pointing it out because both are going to have a huge bias, and killing people over whose imaginary friend is better is incredibly stupid.





Babs34 said:


> Would you care to show me where he preached the peace and harmony? I already know of the only couple of sources you could possibly get that. But guess what? You can't proclaim yourself peaceful by saying "there is no compulsion in religion"...while endlessly declaring jihad and teaching your followers to fight/subject/kill those who refuse to believe. Kind of hypocritical, wouldn't you say?
> And you are wrong. The quran has NO order, NONE. It's read by order in length of the surah (chapter)
> Every last "revelation" Mohammad had was taken from the Jews. He just switched everyting up to his liking....historical fact.
> Jesus said murder children who talk back? Wow, you're tripping. Go look that one up. You're really lost there.
> ...


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## morgentaler (Oct 14, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> ...Well I guess it's not totally unheard of, a "Christian" who doesn't follow half his own doctrine... Though it is almost the same excuse every time... "only the NT matters". But if that were really true, you'd discard it (and have the church officially discard it too). What's the difference? Both were written by the same kinds of men, both claim to be the word of God himself, so why can you throw out the OT so casually, what gives you that authority?


As the quote from Matthew showed, if Jesus was berating them for having ignored a commandment of the Old Testament, there is no excuse for a Christian to not follow it.



> I've never "acted like a madman" on any thread I've posted on, like I said before, I couldn't give a damn less what subjective Christian meaning you hold or what unreachable golden standard I'm supposed to live up to in your mind. Believe I'm a madman if you want, I just speak logic and reason, if that threatens your agenda, then change your agenda.


I dunno. I think well thought out and readable posts are a sign of severe madness on the internet. Look around these forums. The general population likes to speak in caps, bold, and nonsensical half sentences increased 3 points in size.
That leaves us in the minority, and crazy by the majority standard.



> That an atheist would agree that Jesus Christ says some things his own moral code would actually agree with in the Bible?!


There are things many of us could agree and disagree with. But we're not allowed to disagree with god, his son, his godson, sun god, whatever the whole arrangement was supposed to be 




> It's tougher for smart people to realize the dangers within Christianity until it's too late and their mind is already poisoned with thoughts, and in the case of a lot of people, especially children, actual beliefs of eternal torment and torture after death if they don't believe.


Only in societies where Christians have already indoctrinated themselves. Imagine living in a foreign country, in a village where the food supply has dried up, some people come into your village to help you, but they're telling you to accept these new gods. Do you risk offending them and losing the only sustenance that keeps you alive?



> That's why you've seen such a dramatic increase in such outspoken atheists lately, lately being the past 5 or 6 years. More people are beginning to feel like that second option. We've had enough of your bullshit, we're simply not laying down and taking it any longer.


I love it when the Christian right gets angry for Atheists getting out and broadcasting their opinion. When Christians have been doing it for centuries, and have their own satellite channels specifically for evangelizing. Galileo was imprisoned and died just for being an astronomer and recording the facts of movement in the solar system, which angered the church. You and I shouldn't get to have opinions, because we're wrong (and not Christian).



> The demise of religion is INEVITABLE if mankind reaches the future. If not, religion will undoubtably be the demise of man.


Very good point.


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## morgentaler (Oct 14, 2009)

Stoney McFried said:


> I'm merely pointing out that folks who worship in glass churches shouldn't throw stones.


If they did have glass churches it would make it easier to catch the clergy molesting kids at least.


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## Brazko (Oct 14, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> As for Jesus's quote, this is the third time I've posted this in response to the merry Christian group in these various threads, and each time it's ignored so another straw man can be torched:
> 
> _*15:1* Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,__*15:2* Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.__*15:3* But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?__*15:4* For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.__*15:5* But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; _
> _*15:6* And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition._
> ...


.
Here, I'll answer it for you, 


It's SARCASM..and he's speaking of the Absurdity of the NOtion of What they have Chosen to Tell,, These days we call them Snitches...RATs, also, a few verses down he says...........


15:10-11 Hear, and Understand: NOt that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man: but that which cometh out of the Mouth, this defileth a Man...

I have REspect for a lot of you that assume the Title of Atheist, you often present your point of view without trying to Mock a Person's belief, although, it's a rarity... The hypocrisy tho' of coming off like OMG, why is BAb being so insulting is like , really, come oN, Give me a fucking break, I just have no clue why She's acting that way..  and you can take it like you wanna, take it how you feel, But it's a Shit Load of Ignorants that continue to defile the Name Atheist..., these are the people you probably could get through to first if you are trying to make the world a better place, Oh, that's not part of the Agenda, Let me take on the entire World of Religion, Right, that's going to make a difference...,


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## CrackerJax (Oct 14, 2009)

I must have missed the bible edition with the sarcasm indicators.


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## Brazko (Oct 14, 2009)

you miss a lot of shit don't you...., that was saRcasm btw


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## Brazko (Oct 14, 2009)

College Tuition...WASte of Good Money... that wasn't SArcasm,


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## CrackerJax (Oct 14, 2009)

Brazz..... ur religious


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## morgentaler (Oct 14, 2009)

Well, obviously a college tuition is a waste of money if you put sunday school ahead of high school.


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## Brazko (Oct 14, 2009)

The words of Christ are Hard teachings, like the teachings of Buddha.. You don't get the message by trying to rationalize everthing literally, I understand this is a Handicap for most Atheist, but in this instance it's pretty obvious the intent of what he is saying...,


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## morgentaler (Oct 14, 2009)

Not really. Because half of you claim it's all literal word of god. The other half claims it's all parables.
Nearly half believe that the world is 6000 years old, while slightly more than half reconcile an old earth with biblical teachings.

The weird thing is how there's a discrepancy between the number of Young Earth Creationists, and literal-word believers. Maybe it was just an error in the polls. Otherwise there's people trying to shoehorn two opposing schools of thought into one brain. Major cognitive dissonance.


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## Brazko (Oct 14, 2009)

NO, I'm not religious as an REligous church Goer, I can't remember the last time I attended any kind of service.. Oh yeah, it was a Wedding, I called myself a Christian b/c I was raised Christian, but found fault in the Way the Church conducted itself Morally, not the Religion, but the people that called themselves Christian.... However, I'm Human, and everything that is Human, I AM also...


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## Brazko (Oct 14, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Well, obviously a college tuition is a waste of money if you put sunday school ahead of high school.


Mockery, Good For YOu..., 




morgentaler said:


> Not really. Because half of you claim it's all literal word of god. The other half claims it's all parables.
> Nearly half believe that the world is 6000 years old, while slightly more than half reconcile an old earth with biblical teachings.
> 
> The weird thing is how there's a discrepancy between the number of Young Earth Creationists, and literal-word believers. Maybe it was just an error in the polls. Otherwise there's people trying to shoehorn two opposing schools of thought into one brain. Major cognitive dissonance.


It's not what other people think of it, or how they interpet it, It's how you come to interpret the meaning.. Everybody's mind isn't on the same playing field Religious or Atheist... this has become obvious, Higher Education or Not, money can buy anything except for the abiltiy to comprehend the knowledge put before you....


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## CrackerJax (Oct 14, 2009)

the word of G*D is hard to interpret.


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> *Fascism*
> often capitalizeda political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti)
> 
> 
> ...


 *yeah, fits the vatican to a tee....but not islam.*
*Do tell more of the distress the vatican is causing you.*
*BTW, I'm not catholic.*


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## Brazko (Oct 14, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> the word of G*D is hard to interpret.


 
Yes, that is why it is Easily manipulated by those who are able to do so, and the Word is effective because it plays into the reality of what a person feels, but can't fully understand...

The Majority of the People are Good, but obviously some people are Not, and without good intentions except to benefit themselves....

That is why you can't attack the REligion as a Whole, you attack the Head, and only by attacking the body of religion, you allow the Head to gain greater control over the Body....if you haven't figured it out, Atheists are part of that body as Well, helps build up the immune system


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> never said i wasnt bored... but as far as lonely i have you to keep me company for the time being it seems.
> but to point out the obvious- you said it yourself in the definition-
> 
> 
> ...


 *You just try too hard...to no avail do you ever come accross with any logical point.*
*Islams 20-point plan for conquering the United States by 2020*

December 1, 2006  budsimmons 
A refugee from the Muslim Middle East thinks he has discovered Islams 20-point plan for conquering the United States by 2020  a plan revealed in the latest issue of Joseph Farahs G2 Bulletin.
Anis Shorrosh, author of Islam Revealed and The True Furqan, is a Christian Arab-American who emigrated from Arab-controlled Jerusalem in January 1967.
The following is my analysis of Islamic invasion of America, the agenda of Islamists and visible methods to take over America by the year 2020, Shorrosh says. Will Americans continue to sleep through this invasion as they did when we were attacked on 9/11?
1. Terminate Americas freedom of speech by replacing it with statewide and nationwide hate-crime bills.
2. Wage a war of words using black leaders like Louis Farrakhan, Rev. Jesse Jackson and other visible religious personalities who promote Islam as the religion of African-Americans while insisting Christianity is for whites only. What they fail to tell African-Americans is that it was Arab Muslims who captured them and sold them as slaves. In fact, the Arabic word for black and slave is the same, Abed.
3. Engage the American public in dialogues, discussions, debates in colleges, universities, public libraries, radio, TV, churches and mosques on the virtues of Islam. Proclaim how it is historically another religion like Judaism and Christianity with the same monotheistic faith.
4. Nominate Muslim sympathizers to political office to bring about favorable legislation toward Islam and support potential sympathizers by block voting.
5. Take control of as much of Hollywood, the press, TV, radio and the Internet as possible by buying the related corporations or a controlling stock.
6. Yield to the fear of the imminent shut-off of the lifeblood of America  black gold. Americas economy depends on oil and 41 percent of it comes from the Middle East.
7. Yell foul, out-of-context, personal interpretation, hate crime, Zionist, un- American, inaccurate interpretation of the Quran anytime Islam is criticized or the Quran is analyzed in the public arena.
8. Encourage Muslims to penetrate the White House, specifically with Islamists who can articulate a marvelous and peaceful picture of Islam. Acquire government positions and get membership in local school boards. Train Muslims as medical doctors to dominate the medical field, research and pharmaceutical companies. (Ever notice how numerous Muslim doctors in America are, when their countries need them more desperately than America?) Take over the computer industry. Establish Middle Eastern restaurants throughout the U.S. to connect planners of Islamization in a discreet way.
9. Accelerate Islamic demographic growth via:

Massive immigration (100,000 annually since 1961).

Use no birth control whatsoever  every baby of Muslim parents is automatically a Muslim and cannot choose another religion later.

Muslim men must marry American women and Islamize them (10,000 annually). Then divorce them and remarry every five years  since one cant legally marry four at one time. This is a legal solution in America.

Convert angry, alienated black inmates and turn them into militants (so far 2,000 released inmates have joined al-Qaida worldwide). Only a few sleeper cells have been captured in Afghanistan and on American soil.
10. Reading, writing, arithmetic and research through the American educational system, mosques and student centers (now 1,500) should be sprinkled with dislike of Jews, evangelical Christians and democracy. There are currently 300 exclusively Muslim schools in the U.S. which teach loyalty to the Quran, not the U.S. Constitution. In January of 2002, Saudi Arabias Embassy in Washington mailed 4,500 packets of the Quran and videos promoting Islam to Americas high schools  free of charge. Saudi Arabia would not allow the U.S. to reciprocate.
11. Provide very sizeable monetary Muslim grants to colleges and universities in America to establish Centers for Islamic studies with Muslim directors to promote Islam in higher-education institutions.
12. Let the entire world know through propaganda, speeches, seminars, local and national media that terrorists have hijacked Islam, when in truth, Islam hijacked the terrorists.
13. Appeal to the historically compassionate and sensitive Americans for sympathy and tolerance towards Muslims in America who are portrayed as mainly immigrants from oppressed countries.
14. Nullify Americas sense of security by manipulating the intelligence community with misinformation. Periodically terrorize Americans with reports of impending attacks on bridges, tunnels, water supplies, airports, apartment buildings and malls.
15. Form riots and demonstrations in the prison system demanding Islamic Sharia as the way of life, not Americas justice system.
16. Open numerous charities throughout the U.S., but use the funds to support Islamic terrorism with American dollars.
17. Raise interest in Islam on Americas campuses by insisting freshman take at least one course on Islam.
18. Unify the numerous Muslim lobbies in Washington, mosques, Islamic student centers, educational organizations, magazines and papers by Internet and an annual convention to coordinate plans, propagate the faith and engender news in the media.
19. Send intimidating messages and messengers to the outspoken individuals who are critical of Islam and seek to eliminate them by hook or crook.
20. Applaud Muslims as loyal citizens of the U.S. by spotlighting their voting record as the highest percentage of all minority and ethic groups in America.
Shorrosh is a member of the Oxford Society of Scholars, has traveled in 76 countries, and is a lecturer and producer of TV documentaries. Islam Revealed is a bestseller now in its eighth printing. His forthcoming 10th book, from which the 20-point plan is abridged, is titled Islam: A Threat or a Challenge.


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

Brazko said:


> .
> Here, I'll answer it for you,
> 
> 
> ...


*You were the first to post to me on this thread, remember? You immediately jumped all over my shit......and you were way off basis...just as the ones you now defend.*
*You obviously haven't been keeping up with it to say that. A little kiss-assI presume?*
*Do I need to play the game being played to me?*
*Hardly......I've better things to do than to spend hours re-qouting the hypocrisy you just posted about me.*


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## Brazko (Oct 14, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *yeah, fits the vatican to a tee....but not islam.*
> *Do tell more of the distress the vatican is causing you.*
> *BTW, I'm not catholic.*


I don't understand the stance of the whole catholic thing either that I see sometimes discussed, I mean, I do in a sense for what it's worth, but I was in my 20's plus before I knew that Catholics were so called Christians, I didn't even know the Pope was head of the Christian Church, During times I was in service, it was always understood that CHrist was head of the Church, I still don't get how your sins or forgiving every week for telling the priest, or how a person can't get into heaven if they are not born Catholic or Accepted through marriage or something like that  . Now I do admit I have trouble understanding the whole CAtholic practice, but hey, if it works for them, so be it....


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## Brazko (Oct 14, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *You were the first to post to me on this thread, remember? You immediately jumped all over my shit......and you were way off basis...just as the ones you now defend.*
> *You obviously haven't been keeping up with it to say that. A little kiss-assI presume?*
> *Do I need to play the game being played to me?*
> *Hardly......I've better things to do than to spend hours re-qouting the hypocrisy you just posted about me.*


 
yeah, Whatever Babs, I think you are a little Confused...., Calm down, Have you been drinking...., have you lost sight in your on slaught of attacks... Calm down and REread, without feeling like you are being attacked....

and I Am a Big kiss-ass, I love the Booteee , grrrrrrrrrrr , I hear you have 1 

please go ahead quote the hypocrisy


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

Brazko said:


> yeah, Whatever Babs, I think you are a little Confused...., Calm down, Have you been drinking...., have you lost sight in your on slaught of attacks... Calm down and REread, without feeling like you are being attacked....
> 
> and I Am a Big kiss-ass, I love the Booteee , grrrrrrrrrrr ,
> 
> please go ahead quote the hypocrisy


 Babe, you calm down. I'm going to bed. I could quote it, but you have eyes in which to read........go read for yourself.


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## krustofskie (Oct 14, 2009)

Even being born Catholic didn't get you into heaven until recently when the new Pope changed one of the Churches rules. You first have to be baptised and then later confirmed. Then you could have the bread and the blood etc etc. So what this used to mean was that if a young child died before being confirmed, they had to spend there time in purgatory. Because people were outraged by this the pope reversed it and said that all those children's souls who were not confirmed actually went to heaven to appease people.

If you are an adult though who was baptised but never got confirmed, you go to purgatory. Thats were I'm supposed to be going, I'm the only one in my family not confirmed. oh well got to be better than hell.


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## Babs34 (Oct 14, 2009)

Brazko said:


> yeah, Whatever Babs, I think you are a little Confused...., Calm down, Have you been drinking...., have you lost sight in your on slaught of attacks... Calm down and REread, without feeling like you are being attacked....
> 
> and I Am a Big kiss-ass, I love the Booteee , grrrrrrrrrrr , I hear you have 1
> 
> please go ahead quote the hypocrisy


 [email protected] having a big ass......my size ones fall off of me......see what a prick you are......as if that was even called for.


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## Brazko (Oct 14, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> Babe, you calm down. I'm going to bed. I could quote it, but you have eyes in which to read........go read for yourself.


Babs, you ARe Confused, and I'm not going to explain, what is obvious to the people I was talking too, if you cannot re-read it, 

you are starting to make them sound Right, not I


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## Brazko (Oct 14, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> Even being born Catholic didn't get you into heaven until recently when the new Pope changed one of the Churches rules. You first have to be baptised and then later confirmed. Then you could have the bread and the blood etc etc. So what this used to mean was that if a young child died before being confirmed, they had to spend there time in purgatory. Because people were outraged by this the pope reversed it and said that all those children's souls who were not confirmed actually went to heaven to appease people.
> 
> If you are an adult though who was baptised but never got confirmed, you go to purgatory. Thats were I'm supposed to be going, I'm the only one in my family not confirmed. oh well got to be better than hell.


 
You see, it makes no sense to me, or the philosophy of the Christian religion, where you go to heaven for being Christ like, but don't take my literal explanation as that is what I believe, I'm just stating how we were raised in the Southern BAptist Churches..., however, we accept all people into the Grace of God, the only rule is that you wish to be accepted, atheist, crackhead, murderer, etc. etc.. 




Babs34 said:


> [email protected] having a big ass......my size ones fall off of me......see what a prick you are......as if that was even called for.


I think I am the one that has been Confused, be nice, Please... or I won't, I'm giving you lee Way because I understand what you have been going through on this Thread, but I don't attach to emotional feelings for long...

btw, thongs can exclamate any Ass, thong, th, thong,..thong..thong


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## krustofskie (Oct 14, 2009)

Brazko said:


> You see, it makes no sense to me, or the philosophy of the Christian religion, where you go to heaven for being Christ like, but don't take my literal explanation as that is what I believe, I'm just stating how we were raised in the Southern BAptist Churches..., however, we accept all people into the Grace of God, the only rule is that you wish to be accepted, atheist, crackhead, murderer, etc. etc..


Makes no sense to me either. Its why I turned my back on the church as a young teenager. Didn't think about my beliefs after that until I was a bit older where I looked at the religions (I am no scholar on them but got the basic jist) that are out there and none of them made sense to me, they were all contradictory to what I saw and had learned in the world.


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## IAm5toned (Oct 14, 2009)

babs... i hear your a size one...
we should go out some time


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## Brazko (Oct 14, 2009)

krustofskie said:


> Makes no sense to me either. Its why I turned my back on the church as a young teenager. Didn't think about my beliefs after that until I was a bit older where I looked at the religions (I am no scholar on them but got the basic jist) that are out there and none of them made sense to me, they were all contradictory to what I saw and had learned in the world.


 
Well, I always related to the teachings of my church, I couldn't understand the reality of God, although I knew him to be real in my heart, however, I was easily able to understand the teachings in relation to the every day life I lived and Saw from others.., my onward push to understand the truth, brought it all together.. I understand after a childhood of misconceptions and supposedly truth, even how some choose to manipulate a person, can be scarring, and put a damper on the Truth of the REality, but the Truth is still there, you just have to be willing to search for it, My search led me all over the World and Through Out the Universe, and it all makes sense to Me, as I know it does with others. It's a evolution of mind, spirit, and body one must go through. Everybody has their own pace, and I'm able to love and understand everybody because of it....

but that's another thing too, God isn't just about Love, or even Hate, he is Neutral in All Things, that is the Natural state of God to me... Balance.


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## Brazko (Oct 14, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> babs... i hear your a size one...
> we should go out some time


Come ON Now, She's having a Rough night, is it a Full Moon... I know the Cycle of most women run in Sync with it, or close to it...

I tried to defend her, and she jumped my shit, Hormones I guess....., Or

Blame it on the Goose, Blame it On the Trone..., Blame it on the Alco, alco, Alcohol.....


----------



## Brazko (Oct 14, 2009)

It's late for me too, I have 5 blocks of houses I have to hit up Tomorrow, Gotta get my rest if I'm going to deliver the Word properly 


Good Night and please keep your dogs tied up tomorrow, I'm Commmminnnnnnng


----------



## PadawanBater (Oct 14, 2009)

Well... anyone not wishing to read 65 pages... let me fill you in...

Yeah, no proof has been shown, at all, of any kind of intelligent creator. 

Complexity doesn't prove design. Percieved lack of evidence in any established scientific theory doesnt' prove design. 

the end.


----------



## morgentaler (Oct 14, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Mockery, Good For YOu...,


Well, there you go again, putting yourself on a pedestal. You can use sarcasm, but don't like mockery. Huzzah huzzah.




> It's not what other people think of it, or how they interpet it, It's how you come to interpret the meaning.. Everybody's mind isn't on the same playing field Religious or Atheist... this has become obvious, Higher Education or Not, money can buy anything except for the abiltiy to comprehend the knowledge put before you....


Atheism just means no gods. It doesn't mean we have the same political views, etc.
By the nature of Christianity, and it's written doctrine, you are required to be obedient to God. And the biblical God is a vindictive, petty, murderous child.
So either you worship a vile creature, who sometimes dresses up in nice clothes, or you're not a Christian.
Figure it out.

And yes, higher education can't make everyone comprehend knowledge any better, but while you're taking shots at it, might as well shoot you while you're exposed.


----------



## morgentaler (Oct 14, 2009)

Nicely written, but you *can* attack religion as a whole.

Religion, all religions, are dogmatic. The suspension of reason for faith. 

The only reason I'm taking on Christianity specifically is that that's all who showed up.

I'll take on the Muslims and Leprechaunians too if they show up to defend their dogma.





Brazko said:


> Yes, that is why it is Easily manipulated by those who are able to do so, and the Word is effective because it plays into the reality of what a person feels, but can't fully understand...
> 
> The Majority of the People are Good, but obviously some people are Not, and without good intentions except to benefit themselves....
> 
> That is why you can't attack the REligion as a Whole, you attack the Head, and only by attacking the body of religion, you allow the Head to gain greater control over the Body....if you haven't figured it out, Atheists are part of that body as Well, helps build up the immune system


----------



## morgentaler (Oct 14, 2009)

That sounds less Christian theist, and more deist.

And the deity you describe doesn't match the Christian one.

So would you instead consider yourself a deist without doctrine?






Brazko said:


> Well, I always related to the teachings of my church, I couldn't understand the reality of God, although I knew him to be real in my heart, however, I was easily able to understand the teachings in relation to the every day life I lived and Saw from others.., my onward push to understand the truth, brought it all together.. I understand after a childhood of misconceptions and supposedly truth, even how some choose to manipulate a person, can be scarring, and put a damper on the Truth of the REality, but the Truth is still there, you just have to be willing to search for it, My search led me all over the World and Through Out the Universe, and it all makes sense to Me, as I know it does with others. It's a evolution of mind, spirit, and body one must go through. Everybody has their own pace, and I'm able to love and understand everybody because of it....
> 
> but that's another thing too, God isn't just about Love, or even Hate, he is Neutral in All Things, that is the Natural state of God to me... Balance.


----------



## OregonMeds (Oct 15, 2009)

What's this I hear about babs ass? This thread is boring...


----------



## Wordz (Oct 15, 2009)

I like to imagine Jesus wearing a tuxedo t-shirt. Because its saying I wanna be classy but im here to party too and I like to party so i like my jesus to party.


----------



## Iron Lion Zion (Oct 15, 2009)

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
- Albert Einstein

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.
- Albert Einstein


----------



## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. 
- Frank Zappa

Most people can`t bear to sit in church for an hour on Sundays. How are they supposed to live somewhere very similar to it for eternity?
- Mark Twain


----------



## OregonMeds (Oct 15, 2009)

Wordz said:


> I like to imagine Jesus wearing a tuxedo t-shirt. Because its saying I wanna be classy but im here to party too and I like to party so i like my jesus to party.


No way man if he were here today he'd look like a homeless stoner hippie kinda dude with a tie dye t-shirt and baggy jeans with birkenstocks and hemp necklace. And he'd party for sure, drinkin a 40 and smoking endo.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Come ON Now, She's having a Rough night, is it a Full Moon... I know the Cycle of most women run in Sync with it, or close to it...
> 
> I tried to defend her, and she jumped my shit, Hormones I guess....., Or
> 
> Blame it on the Goose, Blame it On the Trone..., Blame it on the Alco, alco, Alcohol.....


 *"or"......just blame it on being a prick. Yo, Braz.....you were trying to "defend" me a couple pages back? Looks much more like instigating.*
*Yeah, but blame it on the moon. *


----------



## cbtwohundread (Oct 15, 2009)

live the life ya love.,.,.,.,.,.love the life ya live.,.,.,who feels it knows it.,.,.spit in the sky,itll fall in ya eye.,.,.,.wat comes around goes around.,.,.,everyday the bucket goes to the well,one day the bottom a drop out.,.,.,.,.,.,love thy neighbor,as u would love thy saviour.,.,u gotta think with ure heart ,and love with ure mind.,.,.,u gota love from the tip py top,to the very last drop.,.,.,yea


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Not really. Because half of you claim it's all literal word of god. The other half claims it's all parables.
> Nearly half believe that the world is 6000 years old, while slightly more than half reconcile an old earth with biblical teachings.
> 
> The weird thing is how there's a discrepancy between the number of Young Earth Creationists, and literal-word believers. Maybe it was just an error in the polls. Otherwise there's people trying to shoehorn two opposing schools of thought into one brain. Major cognitive dissonance.[/QUOTE
> *Most words from Christ are simple. Parables only make you more deeply reflect upon the meaning......it's not a tactic used to deflect from the truth.*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> agreed. the vatican would gain alot of credibilty if they would abandon there mission of SPREADING the word and try LIVING the word they spread.
> but what fun is a world without hypocrisy


*LOL, every last one of you uses whatever VALID point I make to tear apart Christianity.* *Truth be known, I have no reverence for the pope. The entire ideology of the Vatican is eerie to me.*
*But again..and again and again...we're not in the 11th century any longer......islam is.*
*Some enjoy calling me "racist" (inappropriately I might add)....you refuse to acknowledge the truth.*
*What did the pope say wrong that merited his death threats by muslims?*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

*Tolerance......there's a word you keep throwing around.*
*We, in sane society, should tolerate that you can't throw out in the public arena the insane ideology that speaking against "the prophet" should NOT cause the response around the world that it did?*


----------



## Hydrotech364 (Oct 15, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on.
> - Frank Zappa
> 
> Most people can`t bear to sit in church for an hour on Sundays. How are they supposed to live somewhere very similar to it for eternity?
> - Mark Twain


Have to give this post a 10.Zappa and Twain.Talk about diverse.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> And obviously, you must be retarded if you can't understand the difference in context I've been using the word in. Not to mention I am honestly (whether you believe it or not) concerned with your mental state. You ring a lot of warning bells Babs, just so you know.
> 
> To your claim that everything in Islam was coppied "from the Jews", which according to you is "historical fact"... (source?). Are you trying to tell me that Christianity is completely original? Is that what you're saying? Also, if it was coppied "from the Jews", then shouldn't you be bitching just as much about Judaism??? Telling all of us how insanely wrong and crazy Jews are? How dangerous they are? How they wish to take over the WORLD?!
> 
> ...


* You ring a lot of warning bells Babs, just so you know. 

Yeah Pada, I'm secretly holding meetings every week at my church making plans to kill the muslims....still haven't decided on the color of my crusade robe though. Any suggestions for the name of this movement? 
Pada, you don't know me. Off the top of my head, I am thinking about two very extreme muslims I know.....and despite their support of jihad, Ahmadinejad, al-qaeda, their defense and very illogical defense of Mo.. I can still seperate their extremist views and joke around with them. I wonder just how many of you would remain "tolerant" and balanced to do the same after engaging in conversations with extremists so many times. One, btw, lives in London and is on America's watch list.....no shit. He will never be able to get on a plane to fly here. Take a guess why I would be cynical when called a racist.

It wasn't copied verbatim. He just switched up a few things here and there to his liking..starting with God's covenant with Abraham, as stated via OT. They threw in some extras...Jesus talks as a baby. Jesus comes back, marries and has children....list is endless..very conveniently changes the covenant with his lineage. Oh, and OF COURSE Mecca was not enough to claim as their "holy land"......conveniently MUCH later suggested that now Israel too MUST be "their" entitled holy land.....not along with Jews, theirs period-------because mo flew off on a horse from there to go to heaven.
No, this man wasn't screwing with the Jews then or from his grave, was he?

Don't tell me you've been sold on this theory that Jews control the world too.

Why would you need me to site proof that Mohammad twisted the Bible? The books themselves aren't proof enough for you?

Let's see, you are giving credence to the PROOF that Christianity was false via Constantine.........but when scrolls are found dating back to 68 AD, that doesn't serve as proof? 
What? You don't consider historians to be logical either?
I love how the word logic is thrown at me left and right.

Ironically, Muhammad, a muslim boy found the book of Isaiah in a cave ......"proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 per cent of the text. The five per cent of variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling" 

I can forgive that many years a 5% discrepancy. For the record, it is IN the book of Isaiah where the coming of Christ is foretold.

OR, maybe Oregon Meds is on to something...perhaps they were just psychic.
*


----------



## 2much (Oct 15, 2009)

who really cares?


----------



## Dylan360 (Oct 15, 2009)

what does it matter where we came from anyway point is we are here and be happy with that


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

*If you don't "really" care......why did you even drop in?.....just to say who cares?*
*complacency slaps me in the face again*


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

Science has the patience to uncover the answers. 

Religion thinks it already has them.


FAIL................


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Science has the patience to uncover the answers.
> 
> Religion thinks it already has them.
> 
> ...


*Using that logic CJ, Science may just not find the truth at all. Or, maybe they will......and by then, you will be long gone....and you find out there may have just been some truth to what you mocked...*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

*hehehe, I'm going to send this woman to your place of residence 5 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.......no break for you. This is the equivalent of what you say "so what" to.*
YouTube - Jesus Camp - Sin

From a Christian......that woman is a freak.


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

Science has already uncovered more truth than religion ever did. 

it's not even close and the gap is widening every single day.

Religion will fall away before man makes the next great leap FORWARD.


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 15, 2009)

babs- what is your point anyway?


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Science has already uncovered more truth than religion ever did.
> 
> it's not even close and the gap is widening every single day.
> 
> Religion will fall away before man makes the next great leap FORWARD.


 *Really?*
*The earth is round according to the book of Isaiah CJ....how long ago was that?*
*Quran says it was flat.*
*Just a little food for thought there.*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

*Religion has been falling at an expedient rate and regardless of those things coming to fruition as spoken of HOW many years ago...your ego still allows you to not question the very real possibility that you MIGHT just even be a little bit wrong?*
*That makes science pretty limited in that case.*


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 15, 2009)

it allows me to question whether or not you are wrong...
and it wasnt much of a debate


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> babs- what is your point anyway?


 *Now I see why you use that little fungus gnat as representation of well.......you.*
*LOL, I'm sending her to your house too.*


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

*LOOOOOOOOOOOL, you debate????????????????*


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 15, 2009)

ive been quiet this past day or two because i figured it wasnt very tolerant of me to be so opposing to your views, and was giving you a chance to cool down. if you want me to debate with you, bring it. it wont be the first time ive had to defend logic against dogma

<~~me. babs ~~~>


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

Send them.... I can defeat any argument based on NO LOGIC.

The book was written by man to control other men. 

No Thanks!! 

It's time to move FORWARD..... not backward.


----------



## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Well, there you go again, putting yourself on a pedestal. You can use sarcasm, but don't like mockery. Huzzah huzzah.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, no pedestal, I just give what I receive... I also have fat pockets, but I don't boast about $$$$ either


To sum it up for you.....Fail


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Send them.... I can defeat any argument based on NO LOGIC.
> 
> The book was written by man to control other men.
> 
> ...


 *She's not coming to debate you CJ.........ordinance allows her "call to prayer" at your door step.*
*She's not coming for tea.*

*"iamstoned".......*


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

brazz answers pst...but doesn't actually answer anything...  round and round


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *She's not coming to debate you CJ.........ordinance allows her "call to prayer" at your door step.*
> *She's not coming for tea.*
> 
> *"iamstoned".......*


Well, my doorstep is 1200 feet from my property line.... so bring a magaphone. I'll bring my rifle scope.


----------



## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

FAIL.. FAIL.. FAIL.. Ignorant



morgentaler said:


> Nicely written, but you *can* attack religion as a whole.
> 
> Religion, all religions, are dogmatic. The suspension of reason for faith.
> 
> ...


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Well, my doorstep is 1200 feet from my property line.... so bring a magaphone. I'll bring my rifle scope.


* Damn CJ, where is your tolerance?*


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

No, that's 100% correct. there is nothing false about those statements.

religion possesses no reason, only faith.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

*No faith in your significant other? *


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

*...that would require REASON.* 
*I just never make sense......no logic there.*


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

My tolerance ends at my property line. In that large space which I call home... I don't have to suffer fools.


----------



## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> Well... anyone not wishing to read 65 pages... let me fill you in...
> 
> Yeah, no proof has been shown, at all, of any kind of intelligent creator.
> 
> ...


Before I get too far... Why don't you go start another 5 star thread with two posts......, here are some catchy titles for you...(science) or how about (E=mc2) or how about (2+2=4).. .if you knew the answer why, hit the title, were you looking for proof?

The End, Why Begin?


----------



## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

Ok, where did I leave off, Ahh Yes, the ignorant Failure, you still Fail



morgentaler said:


> That sounds less Christian theist, and more deist.
> 
> And the deity you describe doesn't match the Christian one.
> 
> So would you instead consider yourself a deist without doctrine?


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

Braz.... ur truly a confused individual....


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> No, that's 100% correct. there is nothing false about those statements.
> 
> religion possesses no reason, only faith.


 *What I said makes more sense.*
*Knowing .....KNOWING you are 100% correct, on that premise alone, cancels out all Science.*


----------



## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

Iron Lion Zion said:


> Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
> - Albert Einstein
> 
> My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.
> - Albert Einstein



Yes, AL, finally some sanity...hats my Nigga


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> My tolerance ends at my property line. In that large space which I call home... I don't have to suffer fools.


 *But when I showed you that here in America, call to muslim prayer 5 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, those in Michigan are being imposed with a loud speaker broadcasting islamic chanting......you say*
*Where is your tolerance Babs?*


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 15, 2009)

no, i say move out of michigan...


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *But when I showed you that here in America, call to muslim prayer 5 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, those in Michigan are being imposed with a loud speaker broadcasting islamic chanting......you say*
> *Where is your tolerance Babs?*


They're not sitting on my property tho.... let's keep it apples to apples...hmm.

I'll scope anyone who hangs on my fence uninvited.


----------



## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *"or"......just blame it on being a prick. Yo, Braz.....you were trying to "defend" me a couple pages back? Looks much more like instigating.*
> *Yeah, but blame it on the moon. *


Babs, i'm not going to even address it anymore, you have failed yourself..


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 15, 2009)

dont scope me CJ, i was just tryng to peek down your AV's shirt


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

*no, you did not just say that, LOL*
*LOLOL.....omg, so......when they become the majority--which could be in your lifetime mind you, and they surround you from every corner of your neighborhood, your city, your state.....you will move? *
*Nice solution you have there. Where will you move? Israel? Mecca?*


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> dont scope me CJ, i was just tryng to peek down your AV's shirt



Oh, that's an open invitation...


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> They're not sitting on my property tho.... let's keep it apples to apples...hmm.
> 
> I'll scope anyone who hangs on my fence uninvited.


 *so...so long as it isn't being imposed on you....so what?......gotcha*
*Shame on me for feeling the same way if I am told that I MUST listen to that crap all day long.*


----------



## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

cbtwohundread said:


> live the life ya love.,.,.,.,.,.love the life ya live.,.,.,who feels it knows it.,.,.spit in the sky,itll fall in ya eye.,.,.,.wat comes around goes around.,.,.,everyday the bucket goes to the well,one day the bottom a drop out.,.,.,.,.,.,love thy neighbor,as u would love thy saviour.,.,u gotta think with ure heart ,and love with ure mind.,.,.,u gota love from the tip py top,to the very last drop.,.,.,yea


What up cBo? You are not a Failure!! Big ups Homey


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Babs, i'm not going to even address it anymore, you have failed yourself..


 *guess what? LOL....I'm going to forgive "you" based on you are just now catching up.




*


----------



## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

Brazko said:


> FAIL.. FAIL.. FAIL.. Ignorant


Looks like you turn to this method of discourse when you have nothing intelligent to respond with.

Would you care to throw in a "Neener Neener Neener" as well?


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 15, 2009)

babs wtf.... lol

the muslims are coming to get me... what do you have visions of muslim hordes on jihad coming to rape you in your sleep or something?
do you really think that would happen in the us? a muslim majority... in the us... 
i just dont see it happening in my lifetime, im sorry, and theres not much you can say to convince me otherwise.

i think your just plain scared of muslims, and demonstrating a mental fight or flight response to your fears.... so your a fighter, im impressed.
but i still think its all in your head


----------



## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.​- Albert Einstein, letter to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945, responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein to convert from atheism; quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in _Skeptic_, Vol. 5, No. 2​


----------



## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Science has the patience to uncover the answers.
> 
> Religion thinks it already has them.
> 
> ...


Religion isn't trying to uncover the answer in what lies within an Atom.. It has already uncovered the meaning of Life.. We have a thousand fold of lifetimes to prove it..


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 15, 2009)

the flaws of religions lie less than with the religions themselves and more with the people that claim to follow them.
text is not evil
intention is


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Religion isn't trying to uncover the answer in what lies within an Atom.. It has already uncovered the meaning of Life.. We have a thousand fold of lifetimes to prove it..


religion denied the existence of the atom.... nuff said. Religion has fought any science which they feel threatens their myth.


----------



## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *guess what? LOL....I'm going to forgive "you" based on you are just now catching up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, since you refuse to catch up, let me throw you a life line....

I was commenting to them, that continue to mock and insult anybody of religious belief on every thread without purpose, that they shouldn't be surprised that you are doing in to them, obviously since they have did so to you repeatedly without purpose or reason, however, you have proven them absolutely correct and me absolutely wrong!! Thank you for forgiving me...that was sarcasm Cj


----------



## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

Fail, fAil, FAIL...
It's required to at least put 10characters for response.. Failure sums up the entirety of your posts tho'


morgentaler said:


> Looks like you turn to this method of discourse when you have nothing intelligent to respond with.
> 
> Would you care to throw in a "Neener Neener Neener" as well?


----------



## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.​- Albert Einstein, letter to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945, responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein to convert from atheism; quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in _Skeptic_, Vol. 5, No. 2​


Your logic and inability to comprehend continues to Fail You......FAILURE..the infinite bliSs of an Ignorant Failure...FAIL


----------



## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> the flaws of religions lie less than with the religions themselves and more with the people that claim to follow them.
> text is not evil
> intention is


Word is Bon Jovi, webStoned, Word is Bon Jovi


----------



## IAm5toned (Oct 15, 2009)

its starting to get deep


 @ web stoned...


----------



## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> religion denied the existence of the atom.... nuff said. Religion has fought any science which they feel threatens their myth.


Illogical Circular Reasoning...Nuff said. 

You are the Grand Master of it


----------



## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Your logic and inability to comprehend continues to Fail You......FAILURE..the infinite bliSs of an Ignorant Failure...FAIL


At least Babs has her convictions.

Most of your posts consist of nothing.


----------



## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Illogical Circular Reasoning...Nuff said.
> 
> You are the Grand Master of it


Pssst. You should really understand the terms you use before you throw them around.

That way you give the impression of knowing what you're saying instead of looking like a tool


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> babs wtf.... lol
> 
> the muslims are coming to get me... what do you have visions of muslim hordes on jihad coming to rape you in your sleep or something?
> do you really think that would happen in the us? a muslim majority... in the us...
> ...


 *Wow, you're good!!! LOL*
*111-The growth of European population

*1-From 1000 to 1500, the world population grew very slowly. Firstly, the infant mortality was high and half the children died before 5. Secondly, the life expectancy was about thirty years on an average (Famine, plague, wars and so on). However, the *fertility rate* ( The average number of child births per woman during her childbearing age-15 to 49 ) was very high. During this period, a woman had 8 children, on average, by the time she reached the end of her childbearing years. Consider the next drawing (World population in million)

*DRAWING 1*

*Years* ---1000--- 1500--- 1750--- 1800--- 1910--- 1930 

*World*----*300---- 500----- 800----950--- 1750---2000*
*population *

2-Between 1800 and 1900, more population was added than during the previous 800 years. This situation resulted of the drop of *infant mortality* due to *technical progress:* Vaccination, drugs, health care. Since the high fertility rate remained unchanged, *the population began to grow in Europe* which was the cradle of the technical revolution. Consider the newt drawing: The *blue line* represents the fertility rate which remains unchanged. The *red line* represents the mortality rate which is rapidly decreasing just after the technical revolution. The *black arrow* shows the population growth. 
*
DRAWING 2*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]





[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In 1750, the European population, including its settlements in the New World, was about 160 million (20% of the world total). By 1930, Europe and the New World (North and Latin America, Australia and so on) accounted for 786 million ( Nearly 40 % of the world total ). 

*112-The growth of developing countries **population*

1-In the second half of the 20th century, with the extend of the technical progress, a rapid growth of population occured in the developing countries. *The world population doubled in 40 years* (1950 to 1987). Consider the next drawing (In million).

*DRAWING 3*

*Years*--- 1950--- 1968--- 1975--- 1987--- 2000--- 2005

*World*--- *2500*---*3500*---*4000* ---*5000*---*6000*---*6400*

2-By this time people began to worry and recommended to reduce fertility. In the 1960s, the Club of Rome predicted that the world population would reach 12 billion in the year 2000. In his best-selling book of 1968, *"The Population Bomb,"* Paul Ehrlich warned that such an exponential growth was unsustainable.

*12-The decline of fertility rates *

The world population only attained 6 billion by 2000 ( Half the Club of Rome's prediction ). This slow down resulted of a *decrease of the fertility rates in all countries.*

*121-Decline of fertility rates in developed countries*

The decrease began in the developed world: Europe, North America and Eastern Asia ( Japan, China ). Consider the next drawing which indicates the fertility rates per region.

*DRAWING 4*

*Years*------------- 50/55--- 60/65--- 70/75--- 80/85 

*Europe*-------------2.66---- 2.58---- 2.16----- 1.88

*Northern America*--3.47---- 3.34---- 2.01----- 1.81

*Eastern Asia*------- 5.68---- 5.16---- 4.47----- 2.46
(Japan,China) 

In Europe, the fertility rate fell under the *level of replacement* during this period ( A woman must bear an average of about 2.1 children per lifetime to replace her and her husband and to maintain the population ). A fertility rate below the level of replacement means that the population should decline: In 2005 the fertility rate in Europe is only 1.40 ( 1.20 in Italy! )

Clearly, *a new technical progress: contraceptives, played a major role in the speed and the range of this fall*.

*122-Decline of fertility rates in developing countries*

With a delay and a lower speed, the fertility rates began to fall in the developing countries. Consider the next drawing. 

*DRAWING 5 *

*Years*---------- 60/65--- 85/90--- 2000/2005

*Africa*----------- 6.81---- 6.11------ 4.97

*Latin America*--- 5.55---- 3.43------ 2.55 

*Asia* -------------5.69---- 3.40-------2.47

The next drawing compares the fall of fertility rates in the developed and developing countries.

*DRAWING 6*[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]




[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*In developed countries*, the fertility rate ( The* blue line *) falls rapidly and stabilizes below the mortality rate (*red line*). As a result, the population ( The *black curve *) begins to decline. *In developing countries*, the fertility rate declines more slowly and presently remains above the mortality rate. As a result, population continues to grow but is expected to stabilize before 2100.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Two facts confirm the trend: Firstly, the *yearly growth rate *of the population reached its peak in 1963 with 2.19% ( That is to say a doubling every 35 years ). It has fallen to 1.13 in 2004. Secondly, the annual added population peaked in 1989 with 87 million. It fell to 73 million in 2004.

*13-Impact of population momentum*

Nevertheless, 3.5 billion have been added from 1950 to 2005. *Despite the fall of fertility rates, we observe a continuous growth of population.* To explain this paradox, we have to introduce a new complex notion: the *"population momentum"*.

-Firstly, lets suppose that we have a population of 100 persons in T1: 50 women and 50 men. The fertility rate is 8. It means that these 50 women "produce" 400 children (200 women and 200 men). Now, the 200 women reduce their fertility rate to 4 in T2. Nevertheless, they will have 800 children (400 women, 400 men). Then, each next generation reduces its fertility rate ( To 3, 2, 1.5 and finally 1).

-Secondly, we suppose that each generation dies in the next period. For example, the 100 persons in T1 decease in T2 and so on.

Now consider the next drawing (In red, the negative figures).

*DRAWING 7*

*Period*---------- T1--- T2--- T3--- T4--- T5---- T6---- T7 

*Fertility rate*-----* 8*---- *4*-----*3*-----*2*--- *1.5*----*1*------ *1*

*Female*----------50--- 200-- 400-- 600---600---450--- 225

Male------------- 50--- 200-- 400-- 600---600---450--- 225

*Annual receipt*--*100*---*400*-- *800*- *1200*-*1200*--*900*--*-450*

*Death* -----------*--*--- *100*-- *400*-- *800*--*1200*-*1200*- *900*

*Net receipt*----- *100*--- *300*--*400*-- *400*--- *0*--- -*300* -*450*

*Cumulative*-----*100--- 400---800--1200--1200- 900--450*
*population (Growth)*

Despite the fertility rate fall from 8 in T1 to 2 in T4, the population grows threefold between T2 and T4. This period represents the *population momentum*. The population only stabilizes in T5 and then begins to decrease in T6. *It means that the growth of population in our present generation is not determined by the present fertility rate but by the fertility rate of the former generations*. Its also true when the fertility rate is rising.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*1-PAST EVOLUTION*[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] *2-PREDICTIONS* *3-ISLAMIC BOMB*[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*2-PREDICTIONS*[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Clearly, we have many evidences that the population should stabilize between 2050 and 2100 and will begin to decline after. However, there are a lot of uncertainties about this trend and its consequences.

*21-Global projections*

According to the* updated projections of the United Nations ( revision 2004 )* and to its *medium scenario*, *the world population will stabilize between 2050 and 2100*. Go to *www.un.org*. and *www.un.org/esa/population/unpop.htm*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Consider the next drawing (In million): 

*DRAWING 8*

*Years*----------------- 2005--- 2030--- 2050--- 2100

*Medium scenario*------*6464*----*8199*-- *9075*-- *9000*

High scenario-----------6464-----8784-- 10696--18000

Low scenario ---------- 6464---- 7618--- 7679--- 5000

To explain this evolution the demographers use the *demographic transition theory*. It postulates that all nations will move to a fertility rate of about 2.1 children per woman (Replacement level). In accordance with the theory, *the medium scenario* predicts 9 billion in 2005 and 2100. Go to [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*www.prb.org*[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] and the read the article about the *"transition in world population"*.

There could be an higher increase as indicated by the "high" variant UN projection: If worldwide fertility would drop to only about 2.6 children, we would have a global population of 10.5 billion by 2050 and 18 by 2100. On the contrary, the U.N.'s "low variant" projection is based on 1.6 children ( It is yet the current rate in the developed nations ). It should mean a decline of population ( 5 billion in 2100 ). 

*22-Detailed Projections*

*We have checked for you the detailed fertility rates by regions and by countries*. In short, *we can say that the recent evolution tends to confirm the medium scenario*. We have just made some adjustments explained below.

1-Regarding Europe and the Eastern Asia ( Japan, China, Koreas and Mongolia ) we have chosen the lower projection because the medium supposes an increase of the fertility rate between 2005 and 2050. We do not see any reason for this increase except to justify the theory about the convergence!

2-Regarding South Central Asia ( India, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka ), we have adopted the higher variant for Pakistan and Afghanistan due to their present fertility rate ( Respectively 4.27 and 7.48 in 2005 ). 

3-Regarding Western Asia ( The Middle East ), we have adopted for the same reason the higher variant for Iraq, Saudi and Yemen ( Respectively 4.8, 4 and 6.2 in 2005 )

4-Regarding Northern Africa, we have chosen the higher variant for Sudan (4.45 in 2005)

5-Regarding Sub saharan Africa, we have chosen the high variant except for Southern Africa for which we have chosen the lower variant ( HIV disease ). 

6-For 2100, we have kept the medium variant for all countries. 

Globally, these changes do not impact the gross result. Consider the next drawing (in Million)

*DRAWING 9*

*Years*---------------*2005*-------- *2030*---------- *2050*-------- *2100*
-------------------------------*UN*---- *FWA*----- *UN*-- *FWA*

Europe--------------- 728----- 698----- 651----- 653-- 556------ 536
North America-------- 330----- 400----- 400----- 437-- 437------ 473
Latin America--------- 561----- 722----- 722----- 782-- 782------ 726
Oceania--------------- 33------ 42-------42------ 47----47------- 49

*Sub total*------------1*652---- *1862*---- 1815---- *1919*-- 1822---1784*

Eastern Asia--------- 1524---- 1655---- 1542---- 1586--- 1338--- 1340
South eastern Asia---- 555----- 700----- 700------ 752----752---- 730 
South central Asia----1610---- 2197---- 2217----- 2495---2556--- 2460
Western Asia----------214------318----- 328------ 383--- 410----- 445

*Sub total*------------*3903----*4870*---- 4787-----* 5216*---5056-- 4975*

Northern Africa-------- 190-----269----- 272------- 311---- 323--- 307
Sub saharan Africa ---- 751----1248---- 1320------1691--- 1927-- 1931

*Sub total*--------------*941 ---*1517*---- 1592------*2002*---2250-- 2238*

*Gross total*-----------*6496--- *8249*---- 8194------*9137*---9128-- 8997*

This drawing shows some evolutions in the share of the different regions:

1-The share of *Europe* will fall from 11.2% in 2005 to 6% in 2100.The evolution of the main areas of Europe is given below:

*DRAWING 10*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Years*------------------- 2005------ 2030---- 2050----- 2100[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Russia, Ukraine
Belarus and Moldova----- 203-------- 158------121------- 111
Balkans -------------------53--------- 45------ 36-------- 27 
Europe-25--------------- 472-------- 448----- 399------- 398

*Total------------------- 728-------- 651----- 556------- 536*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]However, if we take in account North and Latin America + Australia, the share of ethnic Europeans attains 25% in 2005 and nearly 20% in 2100. It means that in 2100 "ethnic Europe" will have the same share of the world population as in 1750 (See above). Thanks to the growth of Latin america, the Latin descent ( Hispanic, Portuguese, French and Italian ) will increase at the detriment of Anglo Saxons, German and slav descent.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2-The share of *Asia* (60% in 2005) will diminish in 2100 (55%). Inside Asia, Indian, Arabs and Malays will increase at the detriment of Chinese.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3-The share of *Africa* (15.5% in 2005) will increase to 25% in 2050 and 2100. Sub saharan Africa will have an higher growth than any other region. ( Go to *Africa *). [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4-*The ten most populated countries are/or will be (In million):*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*-2005*: China (1315), India (1103), the European Union enlarged to the Balkans (525), the USA (29, Indonesia (222), Brazil (186), Pakistan (157), Russia (143), Bangladesh (141), Nigeria (131).[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*-In 2030*: India (1449), China (1346), the European Union (493), the USA (360), Indonesia (270), Pakistan (262), Brazil (235), Nigeria (217), Bangladesh (205), Ethiopia (136).[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*-In 2050:* India (1592), China (1392), the European Union (435), the USA (395), Pakistan (352), Nigeria (296), Indonesia (284), Brazil (253), Bangladesh (242), Ethiopia (194).[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*-In 2100*: India (145, China (1189), the USA (437), the European Union (425), Pakistan (409), Nigeria (302), Indonesia (273), Bangladesh (260), Ethiopia (222), Brazil (212).

*23-Uncertainties and consequences
*
Are we sure that the fertility decline will continue in the developing countries? Are we sure that it will converge with those yet reached in the developed countries? Anyway, what could be the consequences of the population growth yet to come?

*231-Uncertainties *

The main uncertainties are related to the demographic transition theory itself: Why should the fall of the fertility rate always follow the fall of the mortality rate? Why should all the fertility rates converge to the replacement level? Where is the magic wand which authorizes such predictions? [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Regarding the mortality rates*[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], the causes of the fall are obvious: Vaccinations and drugs crush the infant mortality and raise life expectancy: Firstly, everybody tries to avoid pain and death. Secondly, although vaccination is a western invention even the islamists are not preaching to forbid it ( Thanks to colonization, vaccinations were rapidly implemented in the developing countries ). 

*Regarding the fall of the fertility rate*, the causes should be obvious too: *Contraceptives and family planning are the drivers of the fall*: There is a close correlation between the use of contraceptives and the fall of the fertility rate. Just consider the next drawing showing the percentage of married women using modern contraceptives in different regions.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*DRAWING 11*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]World--China--North America--Latin America--Western Asia--Sub saharan Africa[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-*53%-- 83%------ 72%----------- 62%-------- 30%---------- 14%*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Clearly, *the regions with low contraceptive rates are those which more increase their population *such as Western Asia and Sub saharan Africa ( Report to drawing 9 ). On the contrary, in *China* where compulsory contraception was effective, the fertility rates have declined from 4.2 births per woman in 1974 to 1.85 births in 1995. Go to *www.prb.org*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nevertheless, *there is a difference between the two technical process applied to mortality and fertility.* Regarding mortality, there are *compulsory vaccinations*. So the *technical progress plays like a mechanical fact*. *On the contrary, whatever education or wealth, the decision to use contraceptive finally depends on the social structure and cultural habits ( Go to Gender ).* It means that you cannot project a constant fall of the fertility rate. Maybe, the fertility rate observed in some developing countries has yet reached a permanent level. Maybe, it will continue to fall. By the same token, we are not sure that the fertility rate will rise in the countries that are yet below the replacement level ( Such as Spain, Italy and Bulgaria with only 1.2 ). [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Despite these evidences, many scholars contend that development ( Economic growth and urbanization ) is the best contraceptive! In fact, it does not seem obvious: In the olden times, the rich nobility favored larges families. In Muslim countries, the rich Saudi Arabs procreate much faster than the poor Turks. On the other hand, it's well known that urbanization should incite families to reduce their children number. However, it would be difficult to establish a real correlation between urbanization and the fall of fertility: For example Africa has the highest annual urban growth rate and the higher growth of fertility.

*Why are these evidences neglected? Simply because many developing countries are opposed to contraceptives for religious reasons*. Of course, the UN does not want to hurt them. *It means that the demographic transition theory is not a science. It is just a wishful thinking with a politically correct background!*
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
*232-Consequences*

*1-Consequences of the growth yet to come in developing countries.*

*Malthus *postulated that the human population would grow exponentially while food production would increase linearly. In fact this notion based on the scarcity of natural resources is an out dated economic model. It is fruitless to repeat here what you have already learnt on this site ( See *New growth theory* ).

However, creativity remains limited to the West until now. As a result, many countries ( Notably African ) would fall in the Malthusian trap. Right now, some countries are experiencing rapid declines in the availability of natural resources ( Crop land or fresh water ). What is more, *the increase of population in poor rural areas will boost deforestation*. Clearly, it is more a political problem ( Democracy, creativity ) than a demographic one. 

*2-Consequences of the decline in developed countries*

Between 2005 and 2050, the ratio of elderly persons to working age persons ( Aged 15-64 ) will double in more developed regions ( Notably Europe and Japan ). It is said that people are eroding the population base that should pay for their pensions in their old age. Third world activists suggest a *massive immigration* in order to restore an acceptable ratio between the working population and the pensioners. In fact, *we just have to work longer and to compensate the weight of the pensions on the active population by a decrease of taxes* ( See *international migrations* ).

*It is also said that demographic decline could impede the economic future*: Once again this argument is fruitless: *Firstly,* the belief that an economy needs a large worker and consumer base belongs to the same outdated theories as indicated above. *Secondly*, even with a zero economic growth, you can improve your income per capita: Since the population declines while the size of the cake remains constant, the number of dinners diminish and consequently each slice of the cake increases! *Thirdly*, as we have seen above, the expected decline of the European population would only be an adjustment, compared to the rapid growth occurring in the past. What is more, this decline would be a good new: *Western Europe is crowded* and less population will mean a better living and less pollution. Thanks to their creativity, a constant Gross Domestic product, and a limited population, the Europeans would enjoy the living standards of the ancient aristocracy. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Unfortunately, *the vacuum could attract silent invaders and predators! *Once again, it's a political problem and not an demographic or economic one.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*In short, all these expected consequences do not represent a true challenge. In fact, there is only one absolute certainty: The Islamic population will rapidly increase its share of the world population.*[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*1-PAST EVOLUTION*[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] *2-PREDICTIONS* *3-ISLAMIC BOMB*[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*3-ONE CERTAINTY: THE "ISLAMIC BOMB"*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Instead of the Paul Ehrlich Population bomb, we are yet experiencing an *"Islamic bomb"* with serious consequences for many countries. ( Go to *www.islamicpopulation.com* which provides with the data in 2005 ). 

*31-Increase of the muslim share* 

The world population will increase by 2.5 Billion between 2005 and 2100. *On this amount, muslims will bring 1.75 billion ( 70% of the growth of population yet to come ). *Muslims represent 24% of world population in 2005 ( One man out of four). *This figure will attain 33% in 2050 ( One man out of three ). It could reach 37% in 2100 ( One man out of 2,7). *Consider the next drawing ( In million ): It shows the evolution of muslim population in the main regions.

*DRAWING 12*

*Years--*---------------- 2005---- 2030---- 2050----- 2100 

South eastern Asia-------388------ 510------564----- 572
South central Asia------- 321------ 507------671----- 677
Western Asia------------ 214------ 328------410----- 445
Northern Africa---------- 190------ 272------323------307 
Sub saharan Africa-------228-------417------618----- 841
Minorities----------------241------ 330------ 395-----502

*Total*-------------------*1582----- 2364-----2981---3344 *
*
World*------------------*6496----- 8194-----9128---8997* 

*The number of muslims is expected to double in South central Asia and in Western Asia and to rise fourfold in Sub saharan Africa*. Some muslim countries will have exponential rates of growth until 2100. *Yemen* ( 21 million in 2005 ) will have 144 million by 2100! *Niger*, a poor country ( Today 12 million ) will get 98 million by 2100! (A larger population than Germany or Russia ).

The causes of this situation are well known:

*-Firstly,* the muslim countries led by *Algeria* have constantly been reluctant toward family planning and contraceptives ( Conference of Bucharest ). They stated that family planning was a *Western conspiracy* for reducing the power of the developing countries. This situation explains that the fall of the fertility rates happened later and less rapidly in muslim countries than in no muslim ( With similar level of income ). 

*-Secondly*, *many muslim religious leaders are opposed to contraceptives and this situation is not likely to improve with the surge of radical Islamism.* Just consider the next drawing showing the five countries with the lowest percentages of married women using modern contraceptives ( In the world ) : All enjoy a muslim majority![/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*DRAWING 13*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]World----- Somalia---- Chad---- Niger---- Guinea--- Afghanistan [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*53% -------1%--------2%----- 4%-------4%--------4% *
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
In the 1980, faced with the problems resulting from overpopulation, many Islamic countries like Iran, Bangladesh, Indonesia and Pakistan have officially promoted Family planning. *Indeed, they have reduced the population growth ( Notably Iran )*. However, there are some doubts about the sustainability of this process. Due to gender problem, many people tend to favor large families. Anyway, despite some recent declining rates of fertility, *the population momentum remains very important and will matter until 2100.*

*32-Increasing Minorities and conflicts.*

The drawing 12 also pictures the increase of the main muslim minorities notably in India, China, and Russia. *Many evidences show that the rise of the muslim communities is faster than those of the other components in non islamic countries. *

In *India*, the Muslim share of population has risen from 10 % in 1951 to 15 % in 2001. Indian complain that muslims do not follow the official family planning line because of their religious beliefs. In *Lebanon*, the Maronite Christians, who constituted a majority were reduced to a minority within a few decades. By now, their percentage is believed to have come down to 25%. In *Bosnia*, between 1961 and 1991, the Serbian percentage of the population declined from 43 % to 31 % while the Muslim percentage increased from 26 to 44 %. In *Macedonia* ( The land of Alexander the Great ) the Christians accounted for 90% of the population by 1900. Today, the Muslims constitute almost one-third of the population.

You may ask: Why does it matter? Religious worship depends on individual free choices and the increase of a religion is not a demographic topic. In fact, it matters because *many examples show that an increasing muslim minority inside a no muslim country, may lead to a claim for secession and can culminate in a civil war*. That has been the history of *India, Cyprus, Lebanon, Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, the Philippines and today Thailand.* For example, Lebanon became a Muslim majority country amidst a raging civil war: Nearly 5 million Maronite Christians migrated out of Lebanon within two years. The wars in the Balkans are also the outcomes of these rapid demographic changes. In Philippines and Thailand, the terrorism and its claim for a secession are also based on rising muslim communities.

Of course, its not a scientific law. However, we just observe that all these countries have endured the same scenario: When the Islamists are only a minority, they present themselves as victims and constantly complain ( Such as in India ). When this minority is growing and concentrating in some areas, some people begin to create troubles. Very often, they campaign for the secession of one part of the territory ( Such as in Thailand ). By the end, the unrest only ceases when they gain the entire majority over a country. In this case, they ask for the implementation of the islamic laws. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]*​


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## Dr. Greenhorn (Oct 15, 2009)

cbtwohundread said:


> live the life ya love.,.,.,.,.,.love the life ya live.,.,.,who feels it knows it.,.,.spit in the sky,itll fall in ya eye.,.,.,.wat comes around goes around.,.,.,everyday the bucket goes to the well,one day the bottom a drop out.,.,.,.,.,.,love thy neighbor,as u would love thy saviour.,.,u gotta think with ure heart ,and love with ure mind.,.,.,u gota love from the tip py top,to the very last drop.,.,.,yea


 Jah Live!
[youtube]WoE43NwW1nM[/youtube]
babylon shalll fall, rasta will rise!


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## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> At least Babs has her convictions.
> 
> Most of your posts consist of nothing.


Quiet similar to those of an Atheist right? Guess what? FAIL


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## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

IAm5toned said:


> its starting to get deep
> 
> 
> @ web stoned...


 *I'll make it simple for you *
The world population will increase by 2.5 Billion between 2005 and 2100. *On this amount, muslims will bring 1.75 billion ( 70% of the growth of population yet to come ). *


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## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

You stoned my web?
Oh....what a tangled web you weave when you practice to deceive.


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## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

Dr. Greenhorn said:


> Jah Live!
> [youtube]WoE43NwW1nM[/youtube]
> babylon shalll fall, rasta will rise!


 *Jah LIVE




*


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## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> At least Babs has her convictions.
> 
> Most of your posts consist of nothing.


 *hEHEHE, that made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside......a kodak moment for us...say cheers!*
*~Morning*


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## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Well, since you refuse to catch up, let me throw you a life line....
> 
> I was commenting to them, that continue to mock and insult anybody of religious belief on every thread without purpose, that they shouldn't be surprised that you are doing in to them, obviously since they have did so to you repeatedly without purpose or reason, however, you have proven them absolutely correct and me absolutely wrong!! Thank you for forgiving me...that was sarcasm Cj


 *Throw the lifeline man.......you called me a dunce...and follow it with I'm having a hard day, on the rag......could it be I commented to hypocrisy? unfair judgement even?*
*---face it, you guys have ALL been jumping my ass.*
*Let's go back to thinking I'm a male*
*::EACE::::*


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## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Pssst. You should really understand the terms you use before you throw them around.
> 
> That way you give the impression of knowing what you're saying instead of looking like a tool



Really...Illogical=without logic, Circular (i'll give you the benefit of doubt), Reasoning=to bring a subject of matter within context

Continue to use bad logic again and again to reason your point....

FAIL..Just go ahead and make another of your numerous accounts, but this time apply the user name Failure, so we know who we are addressing


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## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> religion denied the existence of the atom.... nuff said. Religion has fought any science which they feel threatens their myth.


 *God's not a religion.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

*...and before you say it, neither is Christ.*


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## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Throw the lifeline man.......you called me a dunce...and follow it with I'm having a hard day, on the rag......could it be I commented to hypocrisy? unfair judgement even?*
> *---face it, you guys have ALL been jumping my ass.*
> *Let's go back to thinking I'm a male*
> *::EACE::::*


I explained it all to you, I didn't call you a dunce, but you have failed and proven yourself to be one.. I decided to take in light your misconstrued anger with laughter in hopes you would reread what I wrote clearly...but you can get your narrow ass up the road too.. 

A sea full of Shit and now A Piss Storm is on the Horizon...

Here ya'll have it, I have brought Unity at last

I have some Fries ready to come up!


Peace


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## anhedonia (Oct 15, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Really...Illogical=without logic, Circular (i'll give you the benefit of doubt), Reasoning=to bring a subject of matter within context
> 
> Continue to use bad logic again and again to reason your point....
> 
> FAIL..Just go ahead and make another of your numerous accounts, but this time apply the user name Failure, so we know who we are addressing


Damn dude, maby you should chill and have a time out and take some deep breaths.


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## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

Brazko said:


> I explained it all to you, I didn't call you a dunce, but you have failed and proven yourself to be one.. I decided to take in light your misconstrued anger with laughter in hopes you would reread what I wrote clearly...but you can get your narrow ass up the road too..
> 
> A sea full of Shit and now A Piss Storm is on the Horizon...
> 
> ...


*Blame it on the alcohol?*
#*619*   




10-14-2009, 05:43 PM 
Brazko 
Stoner
*Stoner*




*Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 718 














































*​
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *morgentaler*  
_As for Jesus's quote, this is the third time I've posted this in response to the merry Christian group in these various threads, and each time it's ignored so another straw man can be torched:

*15:1* Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,*15:2* Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.*15:3* But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?*15:4* For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.*15:5* But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 
*15:6* And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

He is directly chastising them for making a commandment of God have no effect, by not murdering the child who speaks back.

How very Christian of him.

And no, I'm not about to accuse you of abuse. I have no evidence to that effect. I'd accuse you of ignorance of the words of your own prophet.
._

.
Here, I'll answer it for you, 


It's SARCASM..and he's speaking of the Absurdity of the NOtion of What they have Chosen to Tell,, These days we call them Snitches...RATs, also, a few verses down he says...........


15:10-11 Hear, and Understand: NOt that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man: but that which cometh out of the Mouth, this defileth a Man...

I have REspect for a lot of you that assume the Title of Atheist, you often present your point of view without trying to Mock a Person's belief, although, it's a rarity... The hypocrisy tho' of coming off like OMG, why is BAb being so insulting is like , really, come oN, Give me a fucking break, I just have no clue why She's acting that way..  and you can take it like you wanna, take it how you feel, But it's a Shit Load of Ignorants that continue to defile the Name Atheist..., these are the people you probably could get through to first if you are trying to make the world a better place, Oh, that's not part of the Agenda, Let me take on the entire World of Religion, Right, that's going to make a difference..., 
__________________





_Last edited by Brazko; 10-14-2009 at 06:34 PM.. _

#*619*   




10-14-2009, 05:43 PM 
Brazko 
Stoner
*Stoner*




*Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 718 














































*​
permalink
Quote:
Originally Posted by *morgentaler*  
_As for Jesus's quote, this is the third time I've posted this in response to the merry Christian group in these various threads, and each time it's ignored so another straw man can be torched:

*15:1* Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,*15:2* Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.*15:3* But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?*15:4* For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.*15:5* But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 
*15:6* And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

He is directly chastising them for making a commandment of God have no effect, by not murdering the child who speaks back.

How very Christian of him.

And no, I'm not about to accuse you of abuse. I have no evidence to that effect. I'd accuse you of ignorance of the words of your own prophet.
._

.
Here, I'll answer it for you, 


It's SARCASM..and he's speaking of the Absurdity of the NOtion of What they have Chosen to Tell,, These days we call them Snitches...RATs, also, a few verses down he says...........


15:10-11 Hear, and Understand: NOt that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man: but that which cometh out of the Mouth, this defileth a Man...

I have REspect for a lot of you that assume the Title of Atheist, you often present your point of view without trying to Mock a Person's belief, although, it's a rarity... The hypocrisy tho' of coming off like OMG, why is BAb being so insulting is like , really, come oN, Give me a fucking break, I just have no clue why She's acting that way..  and you can take it like you wanna, take it how you feel, But it's a Shit Load of Ignorants that continue to defile the Name Atheist..., these are the people you probably could get through to first if you are trying to make the world a better place, Oh, that's not part of the Agenda, Let me take on the entire World of Religion, Right, that's going to make a difference..., 
__________________





_Last edited by Brazko; 10-14-2009 at 06:34 PM.. _


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## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

*I realize everything has to "broken down" here.*
The hypocrisy tho' of coming off like OMG, why is BAb being so insulting is like , really, come oN, Give me a fucking break, I just have no clue why She's acting that way..  and you can take it like you wanna, take it how you feel, But it's a Shit Load of Ignorants that continue to defile the Name Atheist...,


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## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Quiet similar to those of an Atheist right? Guess what? FAIL


 *Just......wow.....talk about *


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## PadawanBater (Oct 15, 2009)

Wow, get back on topic. This has become pretty ridiculous...

What proof do believers have Babs, anyone? 

You state what you think is proof, then we'll take it step by step and see if it actually is or not. That might lead somewhere.

So go, any believer, *what proof do you have of any kind of an intelligence behind the existence of the universe?*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

Uhhh, no G*D.... no religion. G*D is religion.


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## cbtwohundread (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Science has the patience to uncover the answers.
> 
> Religion thinks it already has them.
> 
> ...


 it sickens me when u speak that way.,.,.because truthfully.,.,whos to say the false talk that come from these scientist mouth is rite?its just there way of making sense of the world.,while using there scientific "terms" .,.,as we use spiritual methods to gain overstanding.,,.,but u insist that science is rite over eons of praise.,when all im doing is forward on a rightous path to the almighty,and making sense of this world on my terms.,.,u talk with a stubborn and donkeys jawbone and its sad.,.,ure a oldr dude to from the pic ive seen of u.,. i would xpect more wisdom coming out of your mouth rather than bashing religion,.,and puting science on a Pedestal.,.,I SAY TO LOVE JAH IS THE BEGINING OF WISDOM.,.AND KNOWLEDGE OF THE CREATOR IS OVERSTANDING


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## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Really...Illogical=without logic, Circular (i'll give you the benefit of doubt), Reasoning=to bring a subject of matter within context
> 
> Continue to use bad logic again and again to reason your point....
> 
> FAIL..Just go ahead and make another of your numerous accounts, but this time apply the user name Failure, so we know who we are addressing


Example of circular reasoning...

God is real.
Why?
Because the bible says so. 
How do you know the bible is correct?
Because it is the word of God.

So where do you get circular reasoning out of any of our arguments or points?

When I say that your God is genocidal its because that's exactly what your document about god says.
Samuel 15:2-3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 

When I say that your god condones rape:
*19:5* And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, _that we may know them_. *19:6* And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, *19:7* And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. 
*19:8* Behold now, _I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes_: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. 

When I say that God is portrayed as evil:
A skeptic went through the bible and tallied up the number of killings by God and Satan, based on those incidences which provided numbers for reference. For those without direct numbers estimates were made.
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/who-has-killed-more-satan-or-god.html

God numbered killings 2.391,421 estimated total 33 million
 Satan numbered killings 10 estimated total 10
I think that you might have been tricked into worshipping the wrong side.

Obviously if I actually believed that the bible wasn't a work of fiction, with an imaginary main character and supporting cast, then it would be circular to use the bible to prove god, to prove the bible.

But instead, I'm criticizing the stupidity of it all: The worship of a hateful, destructive creature that is no better than any ruthless human dictator the world has seen. "God" is Sauron, Valdemort, Angus Thermopylae, and any other archetype of fictional villains. The phrase "God is love" loses its meaning when God also has anger issues and poor impulse control. God is an abusive stepfather, forced on dozens of generations of different cultures, inculcated into their belief systems.

The thought of this death cult being indoctrinated into children sickens and angers me. People are being bred as stock to fill the coffers of the corporation of religion.

I'm sure you're going to answer with "FAIL FAIL OMGWTFBBQ" or some similar bullshit. That's fine. It just means people are able to skip over your posts all that much faster, and read the ones that tear down your false god.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

cbtwohundread said:


> it sickens me when u speak that way.,.,.because truthfully.,.,whos to say the false talk that come from these scientist mouth is rite?its just there way of making sense of the world.,while using there scientific "terms" .,.,as we use spiritual methods to gain overstanding.,,.,but u insist that science is rite over eons of praise.,when all im doing is forward on a rightous path to the almighty,and making sense of this world on my terms.,.,u talk with a stubborn and donkeys jawbone and its sad.,.,ure a oldr dude to from the pic ive seen of u.,. i would xpect more wisdom coming out of your mouth rather than bashing religion,.,and puting science on a Pedestal.,.,I SAY TO LOVE JAH IS THE BEGINING OF WISDOM.,.AND KNOWLEDGE OF THE CREATOR IS OVERSTANDING


That and three fifty will get you a cup of coffee.

What I said is true, and obviously struck a nerve.


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## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Uhhh, no G*D.... no religion. G*D is religion.


 *Religion is man-made CJ. God is God.*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

Oh Boy.... religion is made because of the belief in G*D. No G*D... no one would invent religion.

So what would be the point.... worship a pocket knife?... a blender?

No G*D.... no religion.


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## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> Wow, get back on topic. This has become pretty ridiculous...
> 
> What proof do believers have Babs, anyone?
> 
> ...


 *I love simplicity.....works best so often.*
*You ask what "believers" believe. How can I speak for everyone? How can I possibly account for what they may or may not encounter?*
*A question to ask yourself is what proof do you, or scientists have behind the existence of the universe?*
*Yikes....go past the big bang theory please.*
*And I can even accept Adam and Eve were apes. In the realm of things, what does it matter if they were? So many MANY possiblities.*
*What INFINITE reason/proof does Science have that God just does not, in fact, exist? Is fact really even an existence? Or is it a fact because it exists? *
*I think that's the better question among an infinity of endless ?s.*
*Science will ask why, why, what, how, where, when for all eternity as you and I, all of mankind, will exist.*
*Why?*
*Because God IS Science.*
*I'd elaborate, but I'm off to run errands.*


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## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Oh Boy.... religion is made because of the belief in G*D. No G*D... no one would invent religion.
> 
> So what would be the point.... worship a pocket knife?... a blender?
> 
> No G*D.... no religion.


Geez CJ, I'm gonna have to disagree with you! I guess stranger things have happened.

It's easy to have religion without God. Just convince some naive people that a story about something is true, or that a mentally ill persons visual and auditory hallucinations are real, and you've got a religion. No God required.

Of course if you want to keep your people in line you need to exact discipline on them, and if you do it yourself you're likely to create resentment, so it's necessary to create a fall guy in the image of your belief system, so that you can become the blameless proxy exacting judgment upon the flock.

So God could be inserted at the beginning of religion, or as needed throughout the timeline.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

Okay... I did realize that Buddhism WINS again!!!

Dang... that RELIGION is pure ownership in every category.

Go Buddha go.


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## Babs34 (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Oh Boy.... religion is made because of the belief in G*D. No G*D... no one would invent religion.
> 
> So what would be the point.... worship a pocket knife?... a blender?
> 
> No G*D.... no religion.


 *I have the answers you seek, LOL.*
*LOOK OUT....I'll be back later.*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

That would be a neat trick, since I haven't been affected by anything you have posted so far.

I need no myth to guide me by.


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## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

743 posts later and the original poster, with only one post to his name, never came back.
Drive by evangelist?


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## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

http://uk.alpha.org/

Heh, and they were already at 60-odd percent when Pharyngula linked to them.

(You other godless heathens will probably like Pharyngula. http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/ )

[youtube]HRJAQUqbeXc[/youtube]


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## cbtwohundread (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> That and three fifty will get you a cup of coffee.
> 
> What I said is true, and obviously struck a nerve.


 no it didnt.,.,im a mellow dude just pointing out ure closed mind,when it comes to praise of any god.,.,u say praising the science bo0k is the only way.,.,no matter wat religous thread comes into play ure there to bash there praises and talk ure science chat.,.,u dont have to send i to scho0l to learn the golden rule.,.,i have no problem with ure outlo0k its not mine to each his own.,.,what ever rocks ure boat dont rock mine.,.and its all fine,.


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## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

anhedonia said:


> Damn dude, maby you should chill and have a time out and take some deep breaths.


 
  , I didn't have any burgers to flip at the time, but I didn't know I was breathing Heavy, or was feeling heated... Maybe you noticed something I didn't....Go smoke and Contemplate some more....


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## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

fracaso, faillite, fallimento, fracasso...





morgentaler said:


> Example of circular reasoning...





morgentaler said:


> God is real.
> Why?
> Because the bible says so.
> How do you know the bible is correct?
> ...


 
FAIL


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## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

1 Love and Peace to ErrBody, I wasn't heated or mad, just addressing the posts as I was able to while my manager's back was turned.... But the berating of people don't fly over on me, if you dish it, I'll cook it UP..

I sincerely hope things could get back on topic, and if not, let the thread die, and when you speak to people..., be respectful or stop the boohoo'N, you get back in life, what you put out, the Law of Attraction.. , that one was for you CJ...


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## CrackerJax (Oct 15, 2009)

Does everyone realize that the OP has only this one post?


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## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

Here I'll help you out some more with the Breaking Down?



Babs34 said:


> I have REspect for a lot of you that assume the Title of Atheist, you often present your point of view without trying to Mock a Person's belief, although, it's a rarity... The hypocrisy tho' of coming off like OMG, why is BAb being so insulting is like , really, come oN, Give me a fucking break, I just have no clue why She's acting that way..  (wasn't that what they were saying )and you can take it like you wanna, take it how you feel, But it's a Shit Load of Ignorants that continue to defile the Name Atheist..., these are the people you probably could get through to first if you are trying to make the world a better place, Oh, that's not part of the Agenda, Let me take on the entire World of Religion, Right, that's going to make a difference...,


You just don't Get it do you..., don't worry, I get it NoW.....


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## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Does everyone realize that the OP has only this one post?


 
yeah, I did, but I just look at threads as good talking points and ice breakers for conversation.. At some point, the comments become less and dry.. but usually if it's a good talking/discussion point people will always drop in and just pick up on the conversation wherever, and usually it would get back to the subject at hand.. I think it just fills a void for us to come together and discuss.. Nobody ever discussed anything that is legit from either side and the thread will never get going with discussion and eventually die..... I keep hearing it's a pitiful thread, but the replies are plentiful, as well as the views.. Something must be interesting about it.. 

Peace CJ, going to get some Grub


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## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

You'll "cook it up"?
Brazko you couldn't melt butter in a microwave.


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## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> You'll "cook it up"?
> Brazko you couldn't melt butter in a microwave.


 
 , you probably right... I know somewhere else butter won't melt too, just tilt your Head south and Look.., No, a little further, No.. A little further....STOP brrrrrrrrr.... did you feel it get Chilly all of a Sudden


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## PadawanBater (Oct 15, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *I love simplicity.....works best so often.
> You ask what "believers" believe. How can I speak for everyone? How can I possibly account for what they may or may not encounter?
> A question to ask yourself is what proof do you, or scientists have behind the existence of the universe?
> Yikes....go past the big bang theory please.
> ...


What proof do scientists have;

- the big bang theory - the leading theory for the existence of the universe. Plenty to back it up to accept it without having to rely on faith. What do you mean "go past the big bang theory"? 

If Adam and Eve ever existed the way the Bible says they did, they most certainly were not "apes". They would be modern homo sapiens, no different at all. 6,000 years is not enough time for our species to go from our ape-like ancestors to the current homo sapiens. Ardi, that new homonid discovery is dated at 5 million years old, give or take. So unless the story of Adam and Eve took place a few million years ago, they were as close to modern humans as you yourself are.

Science says nothing at all about the existence of the supernatural. Science is only concerned with the natural world.

Science asks "how", philosophy asks "why".


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## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

and religion says "do as you're told"


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## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> Science asks "how", philosophy asks "why".


Exactly, Paddy.. That is why the Two are inseperable... You can't have one without the Other... the Philosophy/Religion comes First... 

Thats why as a Kid you Tore you toys apart, because you asked Why does this Cow go Moo when I pull the String and you looked inside and found out How..

It's not like Science is asking HOw just for the Sake of it as it goes deeper,, All the Why's have been proposed and Science is trying to (although rigidly slow b/c the Why's have been forgotten) catch up with the HOw's...

Is it not remarkable that without science at hand.. Men were able to sense and observe their surroundings and although not pin point accurate to a T (this is impossible even with Science to achieve in itself in all theories), and everthing still aligns accordingly with what Science finally unveils...

I think CJ said something about the Atom not being discovered until Science detected it, but it was thought of and philosophies about it 1000's of years before science accurately unveiled it... Sorry for the copy and paste, but things get too technical around here sometimes..
*Atomism*

Main article: Atomism
The concept that matter is composed of discrete units and cannot be divided into arbitrarily tiny quantities has been around for millennia, but these ideas were founded in abstract, philosophical reasoning rather than experimentation and empirical observation. The nature of atoms in philosophy varied considerably over time and between cultures and schools, and often had spiritual elements. Nevertheless, the basic idea of the atom was adopted by scientists thousands of years later because it elegantly explained new discoveries in the field of chemistry.[5]
The earliest references to the concept of atoms date back to ancient India in the 6th century BCE,[6] appearing first in Jainism.[7] The Nyaya and Vaisheshika schools developed elaborate theories of how atoms combined into more complex objects.[8] In the West, the references to atoms emerged a century later from Leucippus, whose student, Democritus, systematized his views. In approximately 450 BCE, Democritus coined the term _átomos_ (Greek: &#7940;&#964;&#959;&#956;&#959;&#962, which means "uncuttable" or "the smallest indivisible particle of matter". Although the Indian and Greek concepts of the atom were based purely on philosophy, modern science has retained the name coined by Democritus.[5]
Corpuscularianism is the postulate, expounded in the 13th-century by the alchemist Pseudo-Geber (Geber),[9] that all physical bodies possess an inner and outer layer of minute particles or corpuscles.[10] Corpuscularianism is similar to the theory atomism, except that where atoms were supposed to be indivisible, corpuscles could in principle be divided. In this manner, for example, it was theorized that mercury could penetrate into metals and modify their inner structure.[11] Corpuscularianism stayed a dominant theory over the next several hundred years and was blended with alchemy by Robert Boyle and Isaac Newton in the 17th century.[10][12] It was used by Newton, for instance, in his development of the corpuscular theory of light.


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## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

Funny how you jammed religion onto philosophy like that.
Philosophy needs religion like a fish needs a bicycle.

Philosophy takes what is known, and then attempts to interpolate between that which is known, and the unknown. It requires no deities, idols, or worship of any kind. It is simply the evaluation of potentials.


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## anhedonia (Oct 15, 2009)

A religion of no religion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9BBy3aidRE


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## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Funny how you jammed religion onto philosophy like that.
> Philosophy needs religion like a fish needs a bicycle.
> 
> Philosophy takes what is known, and then attempts to interpolate between that which is known, and the unknown. It requires no deities, idols, or worship of any kind. It is simply the evaluation of potentials.


I didn't try to Jam anything.. Philosophy and Religion are the Same Thing in principle.... of course Philosphy doesn't require a God but neither does Religion, It doesn't require having a God or any being, it is simply a cultural or individual way of life....I'm sure this is the only way you interpret religion but religion encompasses much more than Idols, God/gods, & Worship..

I'm simply stating what is and not What I wish to assume as, and I understand Religion to be more than Benny Hinn broadcasting into your T.v set

here let me show you, I'll take something that is known and let me know if it still remains true


Religion takes what is known, and then attempts to interpolate between that which is known, and the unknown. It requires no deities, idols, or worship of any kind. It is simply the evaluation of potentials.

but this is not correct because all religions require a deity, idol, Worship and isn't based on the conceived potential.. Correct.. is that what you are saying...?

if So, Ok, you Win.. I submit to your All knowingness too,


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## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

Okay, to make it even simpler.

Philosophy begins with questions and tries to work towards answers.

Religion begins with an answer and then tries to make it fit all the questions.




Brazko said:


> I didn't try to Jam anything.. Philosophy and Religion are the Same Thing in principle.... of course Philosphy doesn't require a God but neither does Religion, It doesn't require having a God or any being, it is simply a cultural or individual way of life....I'm sure this is the only way you interpret religion but religion encompasses much more than Idols, God/gods, & Worship..
> 
> I'm simply stating what is and not What I wish to assume as, and I understand Religion to be more than Benny Hinn broadcasting into your T.v set
> 
> ...


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## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

Ok, I can no longer further this discussion because you are correct.. Man said I have the answer to all things (that was the Religion), then man said Why did I come to that Answer (that was the Philosophy), and then man said..HOw is this answer possible...(that led to the Science)

Yep, I stand corrected, you had the answer all Along..

Thanks for clearing that Up 

 & Good Night






morgentaler said:


> Okay, to make it even simpler.
> 
> Philosophy begins with questions and tries to work towards answers.
> 
> Religion begins with an answer and then tries to make it fit all the questions.


Just for Comical humor

Religion begins with questions and tries to work towards answers.

Philosophy begins with an answer and then tries to make it fit all the questions

examples could entail, but this was just comical in point, you are Correct..,


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## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

You forgot the last item.

Science looked at religion and said "What a load of horse shit. Now let's ditch this fairy tale bullshit and find out how things really work."

If you are really that thick that you don't understand how religion starts with "God/Aliens/MushroomPeople did it" and then tries to slap that on everything with not a single shred of evidence, well, I'm just glad I'll never run into you in real life.

Oh, have fun just substituting a word into this post, just so you can get your post count up. Someone in a hurry to give neg rep?



Brazko said:


> Ok, I can no longer further this discussion because you are correct.. Man said I have the answer to all things (that was the Religion), then man said Why did I come to that Answer (that was the Philosophy), and then man said..HOw is this answer possible...(that led to the Science)
> 
> Yep, I stand corrected, you had the answer all Along..
> 
> ...


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## Brazko (Oct 15, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> You forgot the last item.
> 
> Science looked at religion and said "What a load of horse shit. Now let's ditch this fairy tale bullshit and find out how things really work."


Yeah, Right, Fairy Tale Bullshit and this is how things Really Work..


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## morgentaler (Oct 15, 2009)

Just in case you're lonely tonight. Look, she signed it to you too!


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## CrackerJax (Oct 16, 2009)

religion is a pre scientific explanation of mans surroundings.....

Now we know better.... at least some of us do.


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## Babs34 (Oct 16, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> religion is a pre scientific explanation of mans surroundings.....
> 
> Now we know better.... at least some of us do.


*Aye yi yi yi YI..........ok CJ, prove it then. SCIENCE, as "you" know it, sure as hell has yet to do so.* *"At least some of us do"...you know what CJ? Mankind knows essentially NOTHING. OUCH.*
*Mankind prides themselves on knowing MUCH.*
*"You" CJ, pride yourself so much with your one and two-liner answers that you feel are so intelligent and close the case, when you don't even know what the case to be. WHY? Because it's all about YOU.*
*I notice that you always type G*D....which tells me right away you are Jewish. I've never seen it from any other non-believer. That is just a silly... prideful, superstitious act on your part. Prove me otherwise wrong and type the word. Otherwise spare the world with your two liner thesis here and there of religions superstitions.*
*Your words here.*
The theory of the big bang is just that... our best theory. Also the big bang is a descriptive term of the event, not the cause of the event. 

Big difference.... we are still peeling the onion. 

Keep flailing tho.... it's entertaining (grabs popcorn) 
*Learn from your own words. Bingo!!! That's ALL "it" is......mankind's "best" theory. Mankind IS failing and I do believe you find it entertaining.*
*While you are peeling the onion, others are able to eat their popcorn and just live ascertaining the answer you will NEVER get...solely because you are closing your mind to the endless possibilities. *
You again have it completely backwards. 

Atheism isn't easy..... it's a very hard way to live. There is little comfort in NOT having an afterlife. It takes a true mental discipline to stay in a logical and objective mode. 

Religion is the EASY way out. 
__________________
*Again CJ, PROVE IT. You can't even possibly step into the mind of another and make that assessment. Science, as man knows it, will never be able to completely know another man's mind. There is a discipline to eating popcorn while you are merely peeling that onion.*
*While you are content with what man is/has proven or will prove, other men are more in tune with "the answer." You can't handle what the answer is.....scientific as you think yourself/others to be.*
*I recall a post of yours saying, "I stand by my posts..always have." That is pure foolishness when your biggest claim to fame is that science will answer everything. You, nor any man, can ANSWER "It." You can only be impressed with what you know to be. You are impressed with your "discoveries."...so much so to the point that you get lost in yourselves as being omnipotent.....or at least, at some stage, becoming so.*
*It does not matter how long mankind continues to exist, they will NEVER EVER have all the answers.....but they will continue to be impressed with what they have found.*
*I was pressed over and over to state what I believe according to the Bible....simply so it could be misconstrued, rearranged and put forth as inconceivable......SIMPLY "because" it cannot be proven. What you and all the most intelligent scientists will never comprehend is that even with all of your knowledge, current and possible, you ONLY impress yourselves....BAAA, BAAA.*
*Sorry, I'm only human. You over and over mock what you know little about. You are that lost sheep. We all are, just in varying degrees.*
*So long as mankind exists, we will progress, no question.......which only leads me to as stated before--ask an infinity of questions. And they will be different from yours and numerous others. NONE of those questions are wrong or right.......they are just questions, with DIFFERENT answers according to the person asking.*
*The way in which God appears to me is not the way He appears to the next. The way He answers my questions, different from the way he appeals to the next with the answer.*
*We all need more than what we will ever possibly get believing in science as man knows it or will EVER know it to be. We all need each other for balance.*
*Technology is not so impressive to me. I see it more as an evil so often that is used to cause the downfall of man, while you see it as a "solution."*
*With every "cure" ......what have they really cured? They haven't even developed a cure for the common cold. Smart as they are, answering with the big bang theory (impressive), scientists can formulate what is, on the surface, impressive, CAN'T even create a damn pill someone can pop and just miraculously quit smoking. That's pretty shitty....they can make bombs that will completely destroy nations, but not bring upon simple solutions. You know why?*
*Because mankind (as a whole) is EVIL. We want all the knowledge, all the power AND all the glory. We'll never have it CJ......we'll just keep impressing ourselves with what we do have.......and strive for more, MORE, MORE. We'll kill ourselves trying to do it our way. Isn't that evident?*
*No religion is perfect, or even remotely close. What has been exposed to my inner intellect (which I'm sure you will mock) is that God has ALLOWED circumstances......to show the individual REASON.*
*As we don't all have the sameness in any single thing to an exact imprint, we all have stances misunderstood...even to us.*
*That will NEVER EVER change....until we meet the creator. Mankind isn't ready for that.*
*Only then will everything miraculously have an answer.*
*Until then, we will day by day, "gradually" impress ourselves and one another until we destroy every single thing that surrounds us--as we know it.*
*And all the worlds love will grow cold.....the more and more we THINK we know, the more we destroy ourselves.*
*There is MUCH to be said about humbling oneself. KNOWING you don't have all the answers keeps you enlightened to hear/see/seek truth....to cross a boundary mere man is incapable of crossing with his "intellectual" mind.*

*Jesus replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.*

*CJ, it doesn't matter that you don't believe that....it just doesn't matter.*

*NO man has that faith.......not EVEN THAT SMALL. *
*No man, according to science even uses more than what? 8% of that capacity (as scientist know it) These people are our society genius. I'm still not impressed. And if I live to be the age where I see man use 100% of it (as science of man defines it)-----I STILL WON'T BE IMPRESSED.*
*You on the other hand, along with most, will be MESMERIZED. LOL, then science will have to figure out how to un foil the troubles with turning society away from being robots.....or will they? Will that be what was the goal for them? Egads, I COULD get crazy with that one alone.*
*It doesn't matter HOW much you "prove" to a believer.*
*They have seen more than you or any scientist, or all scientists combined throughout history, can POSSIBLY fathom........all from just having faith not even as small as a mustard seed.*
*Prove me wrong CJ.....you can't.




*


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 16, 2009)

Babs, you aren't capable of logical thinking , so nothing CAN be explained to you. I have posted the very SIMPLE and immutable FLAWS in religious thinking MANY TIMES, and yet, it's still a complete surprise to you. 

You have more than the problem of accepting myths as reality. It runs a bit deeper.


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## morgentaler (Oct 16, 2009)

He's never said science will explain everything. Look at my signature for a humorous, but accurate viewpoint of science. Science will just keep on going because there will always be new things for it to understand.

Religion has a history of holding back change, although the same can be said of most political structures as well.

There have been bright spots, though, as despite the shameful treatment of Galileo, it was with the blessings of the Church that Mendel was able to do the research that opened the door to the field of genetics.

And strangely enough Islam contributed heavily to the study of mathematics in Mohammed's time.

I don't think Evangelicals have done anything much except babble and throw their money at con men though


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## Babs34 (Oct 16, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Babs, you aren't capable of logical thinking , so nothing CAN be explained to you. I have posted the very SIMPLE and immutable FLAWS in religious thinking MANY TIMES, and yet, it's still a complete surprise to you.
> 
> You have more than the problem of accepting myths as reality. It runs a bit deeper.


 *LOL CJ....and that's because YOU said so....and YOU are logical, LMAO. You couldn't even LOGICALLY understand my stance on not accepting "that way of life" in my neighborhood......you don't get to talk about logic....you just keep throwing out the word.*
*Notice you don't even take the time to absorb(because you are self-absorbed)...where's the logic there?*
*I said over and over.....religion is more than just flawed........but that seems to come as a complete surprise......"to you."*
*See how hard it was for you just now with your response to be a proud "logical" atheist vs. a "ridiculously out there" believer, you skipped a note......that note could have been the link.*
*.......later.




*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 16, 2009)

The assumptions just keep coming......


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## PadawanBater (Oct 16, 2009)

*



It does not matter how long mankind continues to exist, they will NEVER EVER have all the answers.....but they will continue to be impressed with what they have found.
What you and all the most intelligent scientists will never comprehend is that even with all of your knowledge, current and possible, you ONLY impress yourselves....BAAA, BAAA.

Click to expand...

*...That is the *point* of science. It's impossible to know all there is to know about everything. Your blind acceptance of ignorance of science is astounding. I'm not joking! 

How can you sit there and bash science, you're using a fucking computer on the fucking internet, you *tool!* You remind me of this guy, go check him out on youtube, I might have actually just made you a best friend;

www.youtube.com/venomfangx
*



So long as mankind exists, we will progress, no question.......

Click to expand...

*Well that's a huge assumption right there now isn't it? 

*



NONE of those questions are wrong or right.......they are just questions, with DIFFERENT answers according to the person asking.The way in which God appears to me is not the way He appears to the next. The way He answers my questions, different from the way he appeals to the next with the answer.

Click to expand...

*You still don't get it do you? *Science does not work that way!* I really do not know how much more clearly I can say it... Science *is *science because the results are the same *for everyone.* If you can interpret something one way, then someone else interprets the same thing a completely different way, that is *not *science. That's why creationism isn't science, and that's why intelligent design isn't science. Why is that really so hard to understand? Interpretations of facts *are not science!*
* 



We all need more than what we will ever possibly get believing in science as man knows it or will EVER know it to be.

Click to expand...

*No we don't. What is this thing we seem to need? Why can't we get it through science? Prove it.

*



Technology is not so impressive to me.

Click to expand...

*...yeah, you don't use a car (mechanics, engineering), live in a house (architecture, design, mathematics), take a shower daily (sanitation), use the telephone (electricity, satellites), use the internet (electricity, satellites), utilize almost any food product you can think of via your local grocery store (thank Pasteur for that), wear clothes (design), speak (lenguistics), read/write (education)... your ignorance, blatant disregard for the men and women who dedicated their *entire lives *to be able to give you the things you enjoy on a daily basis, and your uncanny ability to take it all for granted *is astounding!* Is it lonely up there on that pedestal?

*



With every "cure" ......what have they really cured? They haven't even developed a cure for the common cold. Smart as they are, answering with the big bang theory (impressive) scientists can formulate what is, on the surface, impressive, CAN'T even create a damn pill someone can pop and just miraculously quit smoking. That's pretty shitty....they can make bombs that will completely destroy nations, but not bring upon simple solutions. You know why?
Because mankind (as a whole) is EVIL.

Click to expand...

*It's not because mankind is evil, it's because of conflicts of interest. People make more money waging war, people derive more power when they win battles in wars, and guess what the single most common cause of war throughout human history was... go ahead Babs, guess... 

*



the more and more we THINK we know, the more we destroy ourselves.

Click to expand...

*Keep telling yourself that. Knowledge is the key to human expansion and ultimately human survival. Go ahead and sit there in the dark with your fingers in your ears (believe), watch how far it gets you.

*



KNOWING you don't have all the answers keeps you enlightened to hear/see/seek truth....

Click to expand...

*Babs, this is the third time you've accused our side of this bullshit. You are the *only one claiming to know all the answers.* You even admitted as much in this exact same post I'm responding to... "*they will NEVER EVER have all the answers*". Science is progression. Sure we might get things wrong, but guess what, that tells us what the answer is NOT because it's been TESTED. We can then move on and find a more accurate answer that does work. Religion fills in the answer, then hundreds of years later when it's discovered that that answer is total bullshit, you idiots STILL cling to it because "it's the word of God!". There is nothing that retarded in science that binds any one particular theory or even a law to an individuals personal belief system. The big bang gets scrapped for a new, better, more accurate theory? FUCKIN' GREAT! You know why? Becuase that means we're that much closer to finding out the answer! Can you say the same for your belief in God? Of course not, even if God HIMSELF as you perceive him to be came down from heaven, TOLD YOU PERSONALLY he is NOT God and the universe does NOT work the way you've been led to believe it does your entire life, I'd bet you STILL wouldn't believe it... You wouldn't believe it if you heard it from the diety himself... You'd probably "rationalize" it by saying it was some kind of a demon or something in the image of God sent by Satan to trick you into not believing or some other retarded shit... Take a good look, be honest. Is there anything at all, even GOD HIMSELF, that would show you that religion is bullshit? Or are you already that far gone?


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## CrackerJax (Oct 16, 2009)

Why wait for answers when they've all been answered by primitive desert ppl high on vitamin deficiencies????


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## Brazko (Oct 16, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Why wait for answers when they've all been answered by primitive desert ppl high on vitamin deficiencies????


CJ..this about he ump something time I've heard you state this, do we have some historical data to prove this..idk, because our present diet account for the lack of proper nutrients and vitamin intake..supplemental vitamins are just that supplemental, meaning our body does and never did or will produce those vitamins, they are useful but not needed for the proper functioning of our system.. However, these vitamins are found in nature, mostly in fruits/vegetables as well as meats... So what you are saying that historical mans diet didn't consist primarily of fruits, vegetables, bread & supplemented with meat.. But consisted of ding dongs, cupcakes, & potato chips, therefore they were high on sugar..


Or Maybe that's the reason we lack the ability to think properly because we lack the proper nutrition..

I've heard of pre historic man dying from an infected tooth, but never no indications of a lack of supplemental vitamins as the cause of any ailments...may that's what all the other historical figures lacked that gave us our Art, Poetry, Philosophy, Paintings, Sculptures and so On.. I'm not saying you .might not be right, I've just never heard of this reasoning for why historical man thought the way they did..Maybe malnutrition, but not the lack of supplemental vitamins..idk


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## PadawanBater (Oct 16, 2009)

Brazko said:


> CJ..this about he ump something time I've heard you state this, do we have some historical data to prove this..idk, because our present diet account for the lack of proper nutrients and vitamin intake..supplemental vitamins are just that supplemental, meaning our body does and never did or will produce those vitamins, they are useful but not needed for the proper functioning of our system.. However, these vitamins are found in nature, mostly in fruits/vegetables as well as meats... So what you are saying that historical mans diet didn't consist primarily of fruits, vegetables, bread & supplemented with meat.. But consisted of ding dongs, cupcakes, & potato chips, therefore they were high on sugar..
> 
> 
> Or Maybe that's the reason we lack the ability to think properly because we lack the proper nutrition..
> ...


I think Cracker was just trying to outline how stupid it is for Babs to say the stuff she's been saying...

She relies heavily on data that was derived from the very beginning of mankinds thinking mind, when we were at our most basic stage of thinking, instead of trust the actual accurate, testable, provable methods we have today. 

I don't understand why someone would choose to believe ancient ANYTHING when modern science and modern technology has PROVEN it to be false... I simply don't get it..., it's gotta be the fear right?


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## CrackerJax (Oct 16, 2009)

Yes.... all of these beliefs are from a ppl trying to explain their environment....as all religions seek to do. 

So unless you are Jewish.... why cop that religion?

Know why? because that religion, more than ther rest which were skipped over, got to a place of real power.

If the Nordic G*DS were chosen by Constantine, you would be sitting here today telling me Odin and Thor are REAL.


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## morgentaler (Oct 16, 2009)

> but never no indications of a lack of supplemental vitamins as the cause of any ailments


I believe this is where you would say "FAIL"?

Not every environment man lived in would provide the necessary vitamins. That's why trade became very important to civilization.

Instead, here's a list of common diseases caused by vitamin deficiencies. 

Rickets.
Scurvy.
Beriberi.
Goiter.
Pellagra.
Anemia.

Oddly enough, when searching for vitamin deficiencies in prehistoric man, one of the top hits was some creationist propaganda saying that evolution isn't possible because these vitamin deficiencies just make human skeletons look strange, and all the transitional fossils are just sick people.

Wow.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 16, 2009)

That particular area has been studied thoroughly and the type of foods that the primitives ate back then were deficient in Vitamin B. One of the side effects of Vitamin B def, is hallucinations, both visual, and auditory. 

There's ur Bible miracles..... malnutrition. It was quite common.


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## Sure Shot (Oct 16, 2009)

That must be why fasting is so popular with religious fanatics.


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## morgentaler (Oct 16, 2009)

Fasting, sleep deprivation, and litany are three of the top tools of brainwashing.
Where did the CIA turn when doing research into it? Religion.


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## Brazko (Oct 16, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> I think Cracker was just trying to outline how stupid it is for Babs to say the stuff she's been saying...
> 
> She relies heavily on data that was derived from the very beginning of mankinds thinking mind, when we were at our most basic stage of thinking, instead of trust the actual accurate, testable, provable methods we have today.
> 
> I don't understand why someone would choose to believe ancient ANYTHING when modern science and modern technology has PROVEN it to be false... I simply don't get it..., it's gotta be the fear right?





CrackerJax said:


> Yes.... all of these beliefs are from a ppl trying to explain their environment....as all religions seek to do.
> 
> So unless you are Jewish.... why cop that religion?
> 
> ...


Ok, I get it, I can understand where you are coming from in a sense, I was just addressing the notion that's all...., I get at what you are saying tho'




____________________________________________________________________________________________ 



morgentaler said:


> I believe this is where you would say "FAIL"?
> 
> Not every environment man lived in would provide the necessary vitamins. That's why trade became very important to civilization.
> 
> ...


 


ooooooOOOOOooooOOOOoo GAAaaaWWWDD, you see why I said you need to Reel your people in...., I thought about it and said NO, but I'll do it anyway, but primarily it's all MALNUTRITION, but almost none of the stuff you just listed is even remotely related to food items that were not accessible....I'll Address them for YOU, since you need some attention....

*Rickets* is a softening of bones in children potentially leading to fractures and deformity. Rickets is among the most frequent childhood diseases in many developing countries. The predominant cause is a vitamin D deficiency, but lack of adequate calcium in the diet may also lead to rickets (cases of severe diarrhea and vomiting may be the cause of the deficiency). Although it can occur in adults, the majority of cases occur in children suffering from severe malnutrition, usually resulting from famine or starvation during the early stages of childhood. *(guess this was absent then due to 7-11 & Wal Mart being out of Walking distance to grab a gallon of milk)*


*Scurvy* is a disease resulting from a deficiency of vitamin C, which is required for the synthesis of collagen in humans. Scurvy was at one time common among sailors, pirates and others aboard ships at sea longer than perishable fruits and vegetables could be stored, and by soldiers similarly separated from these foods for extended periods *(yeah, this explains it all, The whole Noahs Ark thang, They brought Two of Everythang, and forgot the fucking Fruit)*



*Beriberi* is caused by a lack of thiamine (vitamin B1). Thiamin occurs naturally in unrefined cereals and fresh foods, particularly whole grain bread, fresh meat, legumes, green vegetables, fruit, and milk. Beriberi is therefore common in people whose diet excludes these particular types of nutrition e.g. as a result of famine *( Yep, your on to something, no Frosted Flakes back then, what would we ever do without Tony the Tiger)*



A *goitre* (BrE), or *goiter* (AmE) (Latin _gutteria_, _struma_), also called a *bronchocele*, is a swelling in the thyroid gland,[1] which can lead to a swelling of the neck or larynx (voice box). Goitre usually occurs when the thyroid gland is not functioning properly. Worldwide, the most common cause for goiter is iodine deficiency *( Yep, you still nailing'em, everybody had the Frog Throat, it was the fashion statement of the time...., What? Did somebody say Fish? *)


*Pellagra* is a vitamin deficiency disease most commonly caused by a chronic lack of niacin (vitamin B3) in the diet. Pellagra can be common in people who obtain most of their food energy from maize (often called "corn"), notably rural South America where maize is a staple food. 
Pellagra can develop according to several mechanisms, all of which ultimately revolve around niacin deficiency. The first is simple dietary lack of niacin. Second, it may result from deficiency of tryptophan,[1] an essential amino acid found in soybeans, meat, poultry, fish, and eggs[13] that the body converts into niacin. *(we'll just pretend we didn't see that, but Sure corn was the Staple Year round food back Then...,)*


*Anemia* (pronounced /&#601;&#712;ni&#720;mi&#601;/, also spelled *anaemia* or *anæmia*; from Ancient Greek &#7936;&#957;&#945;&#953;&#956;&#943;&#945; _anaimia_, meaning "lack of blood") is a decrease in normal number of red blood cells (RBCs) or less than the normal quantity of hemoglobin in the blood.[1][2] However, it can include decreased oxygen-binding ability of each hemoglobin molecule due to deformity or lack in numerical development as in some other types of hemoglobin deficiency. Iron deficiency anemia is the most common type of anemia overall and it has many causes..


Iron deficiency anemia is caused by insufficient dietary intake or absorption of iron to replace losses from menstruation or losses due to diseases.[11] Iron is an essential part of hemoglobin, and low iron levels result in decreased incorporation of hemoglobin into red blood cells. In the United States, 20% of all women of childbearing age have iron deficiency anemia, compared with only 2% of adult men. The principal cause of iron deficiency anemia in premenopausal women is blood lost during menses. Studies[_who?_] have shown that iron deficiency without anemia causes poor school performance and lower IQ in teenage girls. Iron deficiency is the most prevalent deficiency state on a worldwide basis. Iron deficiency is sometimes the cause of abnormal fissuring of the angular (corner) sections of the lips (angular stomatitis). 
Iron deficiency anemia can also be due to bleeding lesions of the gastrointestinal tract. Fecal occult blood testing, upper endoscopy and lower endoscopy should be performed to identify bleeding lesions. In men and post-menopausal women the chances are higher that bleeding from the gastrointestinal tract could be due to colon polyp or colorectal cancer. 
Worldwide, the most common cause of iron deficiency anemia is parasitic infestation (hookworm, amebiasis, schistosomiasis and whipworm).[12 *(well, IMO, this is about the strongest case you have, they all just ignored the Blood in their Shit, and said man Up, I have a job to do, or simply ignored consuming the food groups that contained Iron like)* 

Good sources of dietary iron include red meat, fish, poultry, lentils, beans, leaf vegetables, tofu, chickpeas, black-eyed peas, fortified bread, and fortified breakfast cereals..


The point is, Man's diet hasn't changed, and Man understood the importance of an balance diet and the effects certain foods had on the body in relation to diseases, that goes all the Way back to Ancient Egypt, so to presume everything related to some kind of Vitamin Deficiency is False.., and you once again have 


*FAILED..FLoppED....FUMble RUeSKY...FAIl, faIL, Fail, you are A FAILURE. *

Just Live With iT...., 






CrackerJax said:


> That particular area has been studied thoroughly and the type of foods that the primitives ate back then were deficient in Vitamin B. One of the side effects of Vitamin B def, is hallucinations, both visual, and auditory.
> 
> There's ur Bible miracles..... malnutrition. It was quite common.


B vitamins are particularly concentrated in meat, and other good sources are potatoes, bananas, lentils, chile peppers, tempeh, beans, liver oil, liver, turkey, tuna, nutritional yeast, brewer's yeast, and molasses. 

You were doing good at Hello, maybe that's why you never get a Second Date..


like I said Malnutrition probably, not because Trade became an importance, everybody likes shit they don't already have, and if it was important, it's because they knew the importance of that food item, but to say it's all because a lack of Vitamins, due to lack of resources is 

Crazy/Diseased wasn't Normal or, accepted then and it's not Normal Now.. Wait....., I take that back, I don't want to discriminate against anybody on here..


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## morgentaler (Oct 16, 2009)

> The point is, Man's diet hasn't changed,


You are an idiot. You can stop posting now.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 16, 2009)

Brazz.... ur a bit thick or obtuse... which is it?


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## Brazko (Oct 16, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> You are an idiot. You can stop posting now.


Yeah, I'm a Idiot...Man's diet has changed, I forgot, ding dongs, potato chips, and Ice Slurpee... You continue to triumph forward in your Wisdom





CrackerJax said:


> Brazz.... ur a bit thick or obtuse... which is it?


What part didn't you Get CJ, and what does that mean? Obtuse?


p.s. that was Sarcasm CJ


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## CrackerJax (Oct 16, 2009)

BINGO!!!!


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## ol hippy (Oct 16, 2009)

leeny said:


> FISH! I think you could answer this so I'm bring my question back up... who created the intelligent creator????? geeze I really just want an answer from a religious person


 His Dad and mom ! Who'd ya think !


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## Brazko (Oct 16, 2009)

To be perfectly clear though.....The Only thing I'm Thick Headed about or show a lack of intelligence in, is not listening to my Elders....

It's been repeated a hundred times, or So and that's the only place I have FAiled.... Discussing REligion or Philosophy with a Bunch of Atheists....

Viruses, just looking for a Host...Needing some kind of life to cling on because you're unable to feel the Life you Have.. Pitiful... sorry, but this post was without Sarcasm  ,


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## Brazko (Oct 16, 2009)

ol hippy said:


> His Dad and mom ! Who'd ya think !


 
Now that deserved a BINGO!!


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## Brazko (Oct 16, 2009)

P.S. just for old times sake, and because I'm Pyschic:





*FAIL*


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## morgentaler (Oct 16, 2009)

Speaking of viruses, if anyone wants to watch a good documentary, check out "The Virus of Faith". "The Enemies of Reason" and "Deborah 13 - Servant of God" are worth watching as well.

And to bring up another one mentioned earlier, "Jesus Camp".

If Jesus Camp and Deborah don't leave you feeling sick to your stomach for those poor kids, then you're probably an evangelical.


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## morgentaler (Oct 16, 2009)

Go back to the /b/tards at 4chan failboy.


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## anhedonia (Oct 16, 2009)

What an idiot. He seems to have the maturity level of a high school sophmore. That fail shit speaks for itself. What a child.


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## Babs34 (Oct 16, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> I think Cracker was just trying to outline how stupid it is for Babs to say the stuff she's been saying...
> 
> She relies heavily on data that was derived from the very beginning of mankinds thinking mind, when we were at our most basic stage of thinking, instead of trust the actual accurate, testable, provable methods we have today.
> 
> I don't understand why someone would choose to believe ancient ANYTHING when modern science and modern technology has PROVEN it to be false... I simply don't get it..., it's gotta be the fear right?


*Hey p, BAAAAAAAAAA, BAAAAAAAAAAA......you're lost, but I'm not going to break it down for you. You're obviously inept with what is in black and white, let alone reading between the lines.*

*You're a tool babe......that just can't be utilized. In short, you are L I M I T E D. Your best defense thus far is whining and getting explosive when you are faced with the same demand......PROVE IT.*

*You have this cave man like mentality. Quit beating yourself and others over the head with your anger issues. *

*You are incapable of saying anything clearly. You just keep repeating everything I've already stated (you and cj both) to further exemplify my point. You are blinded by having your heads up your ass....if you ever took a break to breathe fresh air, you might get to step one with logic.*

*You are funny though. Why so concerned about human survival when it's quite obvious that science won't progress that far in your lifetime? Then again, you do strike me as in your early twenties.....who knows?*

*I throw a couple of Biblical verses out as metaphors, and you go coocoo. *

*You are incapable of taking the next step. You are nothing more than a wild animal embarking upon a deadly feast.*

You'd probably "rationalize" it by saying it was some kind of a demon or something in the image of God sent by Satan to trick you into not believing or some other retarded shit... 

*LOL, not at all. "Some retarded shit"....babe, learn to converse before addressing me again. You are just so dull.*

Take a good look, be honest. Is there anything at all, even GOD HIMSELF, that would show you that religion is bullshit?

*You are so narrow........I can't even say "minded".... you have the audacity to ASK a question, but not even get the 101 on it before making yourself an ass. You prove yourself incapable of getting to the next level. *

*Well that's a huge assumption right there now isn't it? *

*I wouldn't know. I didn't watch it, LOL. I already know what you ENVISION. You make yourself transparent.*

*You and CJ both with your words alone fail yourself.....assumption. You don't even know me well enough to assume. I've alluded you both without even getting to the point......and you really believed you went somewhere deep.*

*The world can do without you both as the proclaimed scientists you profess to be....keep trying though. Never stop trying.*

*There is nothing that retarded in science that binds any one particular theory or even a law to an individuals personal belief system. *

*You have a lifetime of knowledge to catch up on, and at the rate you are going, you are getting nowhere quickly....again, L I M I T E D.*

*Where did you get so lost when I implied the results the same, the means vary? You know what...just keep rambling. Your interpretation is all theory....illogical, childish, foolish theory.*

*You remain limited.*
*)... your ignorance, blatant disregard for the men and women who dedicated their entire lives to be able to give you the things you enjoy on a daily basis, *
*..hypocritical and repetitive to boot, but I predicted that from the beinning, now, didn't I?*

*Beautiful logic you have...*
*I said it before and I'll say it one last time. You are a very angry person blinded by that alone. I don't need to come off a pedestal......you need to step up to the plate.*

*The big bang gets scrapped for a new, better, more accurate theory? FUCKIN' GREAT! You know why? Because that means we're that much closer to finding out the answer! Can you say the same for your belief in God? *
*I'd say bet on it, but you would then gamble and lose....but on that note, this was never a competition for me.*

*If you ever should feel like chiming in with something- other than that of being a spoiled brat, I'll continue with what I only began.....til then, learn to say something of significance without calling someone a retard. *
*It's not because mankind is evil, it's because of conflicts of interest. People make more money waging war, people derive more power when they win battles in wars, People make more money waging war,the single most common cause of war throughout human history was... go ahead Babs, guess... *
*Eww, let me guess...........RELIGION.*
*It's not because mankind is evil,*
*it's because of conflicts of interest*
*People make more money waging war,*
*Um, ok.......I'll chime in when you stop repeating the obvious and already stated AND BEGIN to absorb what you posted in the above three lines alone.*

*Did I not say it already? Redundancy.....that is all you comprehend.*

*It's the fear, yes?*


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 16, 2009)

Boy you sure broke it down for us.... 

So desperate.


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## Babs34 (Oct 17, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Yes.... all of these beliefs are from a ppl trying to explain their environment....as all religions seek to do.
> 
> So unless you are Jewish.... why cop that religion?
> 
> ...


 *hehehe, there you go again with your superstitious G*D.*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 17, 2009)

Not my superstitious G*D..... it's urs.


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## Babs34 (Oct 17, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Not my superstitious G*D..... it's urs.


 .......alluded again!!!


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## Babs34 (Oct 17, 2009)

*Do you ever take a break?*
*.....off to get my beauty sleep......tis good for the mind too.




*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 17, 2009)

I sleep in between posts.


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## Dr. Greenhorn (Oct 17, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I sleep in between posts.


 lmfao!

nighty nite Babs


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## CrackerJax (Oct 17, 2009)

yah nitey nite babs... don't let the boogey man get you!!


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## PadawanBater (Oct 17, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Hey p, BAAAAAAAAAA, BAAAAAAAAAAA......you're lost, but I'm not going to break it down for you. You're obviously inept with what is in black and white, let alone reading between the lines.*
> 
> *You're a tool babe......that just can't be utilized. In short, you are L I M I T E D. Your best defense thus far is whining and getting explosive when you are faced with the same demand......PROVE IT.*
> 
> ...


 
English. It's my first language. Sentences... grammar, punctuation... It really does help. It makes things easier to understand and easier to communicate. It developed some 23,000 years before Adam and Eve walked the Earth... 

Try some next time.


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## Babs34 (Oct 17, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> yah nitey nite babs... don't let the boogey man get you!!


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 17, 2009)




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## Babs34 (Oct 17, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> English. It's my first language. Sentences... grammar, punctuation... It really does help. It makes things easier to understand and easier to communicate. It developed some 23,000 years before Adam and Eve walked the Earth...
> 
> Try some next time.


 *You may want to begin corrections with this one.*

"So I picked up some party balloons and a small tube of vaseline, then slippity slip it was in my ass."
-BongJuice


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## CrackerJax (Oct 17, 2009)

I fear no religion, I fear religions influence. It's primitive thinking.


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## Babs34 (Oct 17, 2009)

*Yeah CJ, keep saying it. The mind is a powerful thing. Say it enough times, you WILL believe it.*
*Feel it even once, you know it's the real deal. *


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## Brazko (Oct 17, 2009)

Bwahahahaha...bwahahahahaha....., come on CJ, she pinned you with this one..., You couldn't even reply with a wise Crack.. Got all serious with it..., Bwahahahaha.. This was the first time I could put a face on the infamous legend...., man up and give her a chuckle....hahahaha...



Babs34 said:


>


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## CrackerJax (Oct 17, 2009)

Brazz...ur delusional. I can see how you guys believe in religion. You make a conclusion and work backwards.


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## morgentaler (Oct 17, 2009)

Somebody photoshopped out the other hand. You know, the one asking for money.




Babs34 said:


>


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## Dr. Greenhorn (Oct 17, 2009)

For some reason, I find this thread very entertaining


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## Brazko (Oct 17, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Brazz...ur delusional. I can see how you guys believe in religion. You make a conclusion and work backwards.


Yeah, I'm delusional because I said laugh because it was funny and your talking about conclusions and religion..

Illogical Circular Reasoning... Grand Master <<< yeah that's you


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## Brazko (Oct 17, 2009)

Dr. Greenhorn said:


> For some reason, I find this thread very entertaining


You find this entertaining, be sure to tune in to the Jerry Springer show with special Host Fiddy Cent..You're going to witness some entertainingly funny shit.. My word is Bond..Big up, Big Up, who do blood clot wanna test..starring special guest. "I see Leprechauns"


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## CrackerJax (Oct 17, 2009)

Nice backtrack Brazz.... oops, no it wasn't.


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## Sure Shot (Oct 17, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Somebody photoshopped out the other hand. You know, the one asking for money.


No, it's already in his pocket!


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## DJBoxhouse (Oct 17, 2009)

I think it is just as easy to know there is a god as it is for me to know there is a small black kettle orbiting a sun in the crab nebula.

The probability is so seemingly small, so tiny and insignificant that the idea is brushed aside. Yes, as improbable and not impossible, but tell me then;

English breakfast or earl gray? Find me a proof for that and I'll believe in your 'God.'


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## Sure Shot (Oct 17, 2009)

This song really puts it best for me.
[youtube]XQ6G1VvMbE4[/youtube]


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## Dr. Greenhorn (Oct 17, 2009)

damn sureshot! I almost lost myself in that forest


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## NOWitall (Oct 17, 2009)

hahahahahahaha, hey im gonna give another shot at this philosophical debate thing.
ive been reading alot of the other posts, so im going to try and post in the same format.


YOUR WRONG xxxxx. Only I can be correct. The sheer fact you beleive yourself to be correct, only shows how incorrect you are.
when you wrote "INSERT LONG BORING POINTLESS QUOTE HERE". It shows how you totally missed the entire point i was making, 
all i was saying is "GROSS GENERALIZATION / OVERSIMPLIFICATION." Do you see what im saying xxxxx?

And how dare you say that my "YYYYY" condones such things as "POINTLESS MIND NUMBIND REINFORCEMENT"
my "YYYYY" teaches us to love others. And as such i am well within my right to "SOMEONE PUT ME OUT OF MY MISERY"

And YOU xxxxx, how DARE you impune my "WHINING LIKE A LITTLE GIRL"
And if you were here right now id "SEEKING APPROVAL IN A CHILDLIKE FASHION" the shit out of you.
and for the last damned time "FINAL REINFORCEMENT OF POINTLESS ARGUMENT DIVERTED BY A CHILDLIKE ABILITY TO GET DISTRACTED WHEN PEOPLE OFFEND YOU"

so there you big doo doo head


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## Dr. Greenhorn (Oct 17, 2009)

NOWitall said:


> hahahahahahaha, hey im gonna give another shot at this philosophical debate thing.
> ive been reading alot of the other posts, so im going to try and post in the same format.
> 
> 
> ...


pretty cool post!


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## PadawanBater (Oct 17, 2009)

NOWitall said:


> hahahahahahaha, hey im gonna give another shot at this philosophical debate thing.
> ive been reading alot of the other posts, so im going to try and post in the same format.
> 
> 
> ...


 
lmao, pretty damn much...


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## morgentaler (Oct 17, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> lmao, pretty damn much...


Wait, what are YOU laughing at, you big doo-doo head!


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## NOWitall (Oct 18, 2009)

well

i just thought its drifted a bit off topic.

but hey i got a new one we can all fight over.

what about this whole "PURPOSE FOR MANKIND" thing, has that been addressed yet???

ok im throwin my guess in. mankind was created for 2 reasons

1. God/Gods, needed coffee.
2. ultimate reality program.

or if those aren't controversial enough for ya heres something juicier

mankind was created for only one reason

to rape hamsters.


didnt see that comin didja?


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

NOWitall said:


> what about this whole "PURPOSE FOR MANKIND" thing, has that been addressed yet???


The purpose of mankind is to serve as a vehicle for gene replication.

Actually it's the purpose of all living creatures.

Those genes are taskmasters, damn it.


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## Babs34 (Oct 18, 2009)

NOWitall said:


> hahahahahahaha, hey im gonna give another shot at this philosophical debate thing.
> ive been reading alot of the other posts, so im going to try and post in the same format.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 18, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> lmao, pretty damn much...


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

Yep, Perfect Sense..., but come on Babs, you're just looking at it with a value derived from a Surface only Skeptical View and Opinion, It goes much, much, much, deeper than That.. Science just has to explain it for you, be patient and wait For science to Explain how Nothing happened...


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

Atheists believe all kinds of things.
They just share one common lack of belief - gods.

Some athiests believe in anti-vaxxer propaganda. They're nutty too.

Some believe in the power of crystals. Kooks.

Some believe that the world is going to end in 2012 because of a date on a calendar. Absolutely mad.

An atheist who isn't a rationalist is just as likely to believe nonsensical fairy tale stories as a theist.

And a rationalist doesn't presume to know where the universe or multiverse came from. Hypotheses can be made, but absolute knowledge isn't available. (yet).

What you or I consider nothing is very different to an astrophysicist. Nothing is the sum of other values, which can be extracted again. 

A mathematical "Nothing" actually makes more sense than a god of desert tribesmen who created a universe just to be a capricious bitch to its inhabitants.







Babs34 said:


>


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

[youtube]CyMYyZinC2I[/youtube]


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## morgentaler (Oct 18, 2009)

It's funny. Everyone on both sides so far has put effort and thought into what they say.

Except Brazko. 

There's a brain in there. Use it. Make your posts interesting instead of empty.


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> It's funny. Everyone on both sides so far has put effort and thought into what they say.
> 
> Except Brazko.
> 
> There's a brain in there. Use it. Make your posts interesting instead of empty.


 
Yeah, I'm a Thoughtless Creature, I prefer to Wait on Science to make a Statement on my behalf...


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## PadawanBater (Oct 18, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Yeah, I'm a Thoughtless Creature, I prefer to Wait on Science to make a Statement on my behalf...


 
What's your beef with science exactly?

You use it's applications every single day of your life.


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> What's your beef with science exactly?
> 
> You use it's applications every single day of your life.


 
That's An Awesome Observation Paddy, I have beef with Science.. 

OoOOOOOooo, K....

but let me ask, Why do you Feel, I have beef with Science? 

And I'll tell you why you have an illogical Beef with REligion..

but, if I don't reply quickly, and I won't at the Moment, today is Sunday....


FootBall


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

and if you are basing my beef with the SArcastic remark, I made up there ^^^^^, It was SArcasm...

However, the Statement in itself is True..., to Whom it Applies..


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## PadawanBater (Oct 18, 2009)

It was a serious question. You seem to acknowledge it when it's suits you, but dismiss it when it contradicts things you believe to be true. How do you justify that?

(this question applies to you too Babs)


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## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> It was a serious question. You seem to acknowledge it when it's suits you, but dismiss it when it contradicts things you believe to be true. How do you justify that?
> 
> (this question applies to you too Babs)


Yes, and it was a Serious Reply, I have never Acknowledged or, Dismissed Science for any suited purpose..., You cannot bring forth one statement I have made that Contradicts what I have just said.. If you can, I would Give over to you my life, Everything, HOuse , Car, Job, Wife (you can have her ) whatever of your choosen if you can show me 1 statement where I have dismissed Science or implied it contradictive or favorably to anything towards my belief when I decided to of My chooosen, because honestly, I know of No contradictions, and if I did, I would acknowledge it, Go ahead and Justify it to me, by showing where I have stated such contradictive Verbage, regarding Science...


If it contradicts something I believe, then I must accept the evidence put forth..just as I have accepted the Evidence that has given me my Belief..

I felt you were one of the Solid Logical Thinking Atheists as Well, but stating some idiotic Bullshit and say justify it, when you haven't been Just in your narrow minded observation...

NOw, to be Just in my Observation, You attack People, Not religion, because you hate People that do not think as you do.. They have done you no Wrong, and you cannot presume what they Know of God and How they interpet God to be or the Religion that follows, because you lack the ability and only see God/religion in 1 perspective, Yours.. So instead of attacking the Construct of the defilment of Religion, Politics, and whatever other organized movement, that wishes to degrade the Worth of the Human RAce, It simply comes down to the Individual entities, you attack what you fail to comprehend because you are only observant of a Minute part of civilization that tries to Control and manipulate People, and consumed by something you find absurdely disturbing to human Nature... Guess What address the Person, So instead of Attacking 9.5million people, you have 9.49million people left to go at, plus 1 helping you, you're making progress, and then if you really want to change the world for the Better, take the limitations off of A Group that you fail to identify with, and focus it on the common shit that everybody falls short on.. Greed, Selfishness, Power, or whatever you deem ill of mankind, It's a much, much, bigger selection of those people across the world instead of focusing it on a particular Group because they did evil... Every fucking person in this world has done some wrong, it's not a Organization doing it, It's People, The Person... Address the person..., Instead you say, not literally speaking but to get my point across, (you're fucking stupid and a disgrace to the human race because I read in history and saw a documentary, a group of people doing bad shit) That is the same as Blaming every White Man for Slavery, That is the Same as blaming every German for the Holocaust, you can't put everybody in a category of Evil doing People because you choose only to select what a Group of Indivduals or Individual have done that happens to be black, White, German, Christian, Muslim, or what the fuck ever..

Man, you really disappoint me talking some ignorant shit like that, "you being Serious" "I only justify it to My CAuse or Belief when I want too"..... I thought you were atleast better than That.. but I'm not going to be harsh on you anymore, It's something you have to gain some greater maturity about.... and I apologize now, but that was really short of any thought and disappointing to hear coming from you.... and even if you don't find anything, which I know you are Not, I'm still shipping Her to you.. PM me the Address..


----------



## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

BtW... Krusto, didn't we just finish a Thread, about cheating Death With Science, something I brought Up in discussion to the table... Yeah, I got Beef with Science...


----------



## CrackerJax (Oct 18, 2009)

Ever notice that the truly religious don't have an ounce of logic?


----------



## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Ever notice that the truly religious don't have an ounce of logic?


Well, if you are asking me, Yes, sometimes they lack a greater balance in their logical thinking, but that doesn't mean they are without logic, just as the same can be said for the Extreme Atheists, they are not without logic, but still fall short of having it... but then again they have to Mature as well, indivdually.. What ever they Choose to call or identify themselves as, but It don't help to pound them further into illogical thinking, That all together defeats the purpose doesn't it, You wanna help them Up, not put them Down.. If you can't say anything to help, Then don't insist of only Smashing them down.. It defeats the purpose.. And if you are implying it to me, I already know I'm a few Sesame Seeds short on the Bun....., that was a Joke, NO really, that was A Joke......, 

But, I have stated that also, it's a handicap that the Religious don't use often... Logic and REason, Remember me stating That, Probably Not, Huh?


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 18, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> It was a serious question. You seem to acknowledge it when it's suits you, but dismiss it when it contradicts things you believe to be true. How do you justify that?
> 
> (this question applies to you too Babs)


 *Every single thing you accuse us believers as applies right back to you.*
*Neither of us ever stated that Science does not have it's place. What's so hard to understand there?*
*You acknowledge what suits you. You are SO scared to acknowledge that there is this ONE entity out there so MUCH BIGGER than what you could possibly imagine.*
*The fact that you are wasting time attempting to prove it shows you are limited in your thinking, while accusing others of the same.*
*You give no realization to the FACT that Science WILL prove God to your liking one day, but you may or may not be around to witness it.*
*Science, in FACT, already has been finding "proof".....it's just not ever going to be good enough for you.*


----------



## NOWitall (Oct 18, 2009)

all things can be logically reasoned.

given enough input points.

for instance it is no more or less logical to believe in god as to not.
to my knowledge there has been no PROOF one way or the other.
so to believe god doesn't exist holds the same degree of logic as believing he does.

i mean i cant say "i have no proof as to the existence of Cuba, as such it cannot possibly exist."
nor can i say "i read about this place called Narnia in a book, so it must exist."

to argue about the existence of god holds less logic than either belief, because thats all it is belief.
you cant argue a belief. you can present a belief, but the moment you try and justify your belief you lose ground.

atheists, have no religion, and have gone to great extent to turn not having a religion, into its own religion.
while the religious have turned having religion into the equivalent of not having one. (evangelists, dirty priests, creepy religions trading daughters, christians advocating war)

how bout we get to some actual philosofical debate?????

stop callin each other names, stop eggin each other on.
and lets get back to the serious matter of arguing an unwinable argument.

its like my grandaddy used to say, "if you cant say something nice, get the fuck out of my shop."


----------



## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

Logically, Cuba exist, because I understand the concept Cuba is put IN, 

Logically, Narnia exist, because I understand the concept Narnia is Put in,

Words are used to describe the existence of an Meaning, that is understood.., 

Logically, 1 cannot believe in Cuba, if they have never Seen Cuba on a Map, a Cuban Person, but if I describe Cuba to that person, They will understand the Logic of What Cuba is.. Then they know where to search for Cuba...

Logically, 1 cannot believe in Narnia, if they have never been to Narnia, took a Walk in the forest with Aslan, but if I describe Narnia, and Show them the Library where to REad about Narnia, then they will know of Narnaia..


God describes, a meaning, You can call it Thor, Abramhamic, Zeus, Whatever of your choosen, If I listen to Your meaning and grasp and understanding, I will know the Existence of the meaning when I come across that God, Thor, Zeues, from what you have given context of it's meaning... 

SAying, god doesn't exist because it was never so is saying the same as every word I just type isn't so, because it never was.... Words come into existence to describe Meaning..making communication easier..

If not we can go back to Uh Uh, Ump, ooh, ohh, ooo, and jestering with our hands if Words have become to much Trouble for expressing Thought....


----------



## Brazko (Oct 18, 2009)

and not to think I'm going at you, I understand where you are coming from, but that's the problem as you have stated.. 

Everything started out as individuals, Who attacked each other.. as time progress, those individuals form Groups, and attack other Groups.., AS time goes those Groups will merge into one Group, The Human Race..., but to start blaming one group for this, or one group for that is nonsense, 

It goes back to the Individual...A Group is NOt a Group, and A Race is NOt A RAce, Without the combined Individuals..


----------



## morgentaler (Oct 19, 2009)

NOWitall said:


> i mean i cant say "i have no proof as to the existence of Cuba, as such it cannot possibly exist."
> nor can i say "i read about this place called Narnia in a book, so it must exist."


But you can actually go and look for Cuba, find it, enjoy some of its cigars and sandy beaches, and establish with certainty that it exists.

As for Narnia, you could check to see if the book it appeared in was written as a work of fiction, who the author was and what the intent of his writing was, if there is any precedent for the existence of wardrobes that transport people to other worlds, if there is any evidence for the existence of beavers, fauns, and various other non-human creatures that speak plain English, etc. etc. and arrive at the conclusion that the improbability of such a place existing is so high that it certainly does not exist.


----------



## PadawanBater (Oct 19, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Yes, and it was a Serious Reply, I have never Acknowledged or, Dismissed Science for any suited purpose..., You cannot bring forth one statement I have made that Contradicts what I have just said.. If you can, I would Give over to you my life, Everything, HOuse , Car, Job, Wife (you can have her ) whatever of your choosen if you can show me 1 statement where I have dismissed Science or implied it contradictive or favorably to anything towards my belief when I decided to of My chooosen, because honestly, I know of No contradictions, and if I did, I would acknowledge it, Go ahead and Justify it to me, by showing where I have stated such contradictive Verbage, regarding Science...
> 
> 
> If it contradicts something I believe, then I must accept the evidence put forth..just as I have accepted the Evidence that has given me my Belief..
> ...


Well Braz, to tell you the truth, I actually had you a step above Babs and the rest of the fundies. I've never really read you resort to personal attacks before this post, which was without question totally uncalled for, as I'll explain later. 

First off, I chose my words carefully, this is what I said;




PadawanBater said:


> *You seem to *acknowledge it when it's suits you, but dismiss it when it contradicts things you believe to be true. How do you justify that?


SEEM TO, meaning I was making an observation, not a statement or an accusation.

Moving on...




Brazko said:


> Yeah, I'm a Thoughtless Creature, I prefer to Wait on Science to make a Statement on my behalf...





Brazko said:


> Yep, Perfect Sense...but come on Babs, you're just looking at it with a value derived from a Surface only Skeptical View and Opinion, It goes much, much, much, deeper than That.. Science just has to explain it for you, be patient and wait For science to Explain how Nothing happened...


These are the quotes that I thought you were mocking science. Babs rails on it hard enough, then you come along and throw your two cents in in the form of comments like these? What is one supposed to think? That first one, clearly a sarcastic tone, asserting that there is more to this world than science can account for, showing no facts, no proof, no evidence or even an explination, then further concluding that because your preconceived assertion is true, which it's not, atheists are close minded because they choose to side with logic and reason instead of faith and dogma... The second one, exactly the same thing, asserting that the big bang theory is invalid because you simply don't understand it. It's a little more complicated than "nothing happened to nothing"... You also seem to be implying that because accurate, trustable science sometimes takes many years to complete, it's invalid or innacurate... Sorry man, science doesn't work that way.

The rest of your post is total disrespect. You don't know anything about me personally. I come on here and make logical argument after logical argument and all you guys do is come back with "my bible said this" or "if you didn't believe it you wouldn't fight so hard against it"... You guys just don't get it. Let me make it as clear as possible. *Organized religion is dangerous*. Notice I didn't say *"all religion"* is dangerous, because that is not what I believe. I believe if you find some kind of enlightenment through whatever religion you follow, that's great, that's fantastic, we should all be so fortunate. You guys make this accusation left and right when I'm sitting here telling you you cannot know my own personal beliefs better than I can, you are wrong, if you don't want to admit that, then fine, you're only lying to yourself about something you're not willing to accept, that is, not every atheist is an immoral, liberal, brainwashed, selfish, greedy person. It's the organized ones that turn my stomach. The ones who lobby governments, the ones who push ID into science classrooms. You guys say "who cares, let them do it, they're not hurting anyone.." That's not true. Every moment these people force their garbage down anyones throat unwillingly, they should be stopped. There has been enough passive atheist activism, if you could even call it that, I'd call it more like atheists simply trying to live their lives without having to put up with TOO MUCH bitching from the nutjobs. Once we speak up about their bullshit with a loud enough voice, they come back with "discrimination!". I wonder if that's what the white slave owners told the black slaves when they used to revolt back in the day... 

Your free ride is over. Enough is enough. You live in America, where good ideas prosper and bad ideas fall victim to the history books. The day will come when all of this shit we're all tortured by on a daily basis becomes nothing more than legends and fairy tales in the non fiction section of the library right next to the Illiad, probably not in my lifetime, but it will come, because even though humanity has all it's faults, I still think there are enough smart people to overcome the shit that is holding us back from achieving greatness.


----------



## Babs34 (Oct 19, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> Well Braz, to tell you the truth, I actually had you a step above Babs and the rest of the fundies. I've never really read you resort to personal attacks before this post, which was without question totally uncalled for, as I'll explain later.
> 
> First off, I chose my words carefully, this is what I said;
> 
> ...


Well Braz, to tell you the truth, I actually had you a step above Babs and the rest of the fundies. 
*And you accuse me of being on a pedestal? LOL*
*Pretty nifty how you "rightly" are permitted to make a call on the future like that. America will just smack those believers down and dispell those myths. Tortured by! LOL, you made a funny.*
*But hey, God FORBID people believe in the GOODNESS of God, in the HOPE of a coming from the One who loves us and manages to fill in the blanks....that's just TORTURE, lol....get a life.*
*You, as an atheist, have come accross time and time again as an EXTREMIST. What will you call your movement? And what will the color of the robes be? Really.....I'm on the lookout. People like YOU scare me. *There has been enough passive atheist activism*You're worried about my mental condition? Oh do get over yourself.*
The rest of your post is total disrespect. You don't know anything about me personally. I come on here and make logical argument after logical argument and all you guys do is come back with "my bible said this" or "if you didn't believe it you wouldn't fight so hard against it"... 
*That's ALL you do is disrespect every LAST thing a "scary disbeliever" puts forth about their beliefs. I've never seen any person yet come across as aggressive as you. Just because you say you are being logical JUST DOESN'T MAKE IT SO.*
*For the record, I have NOT come back with "my Bible says this and that".....you just don't listen!!!*
"if you didn't believe it you wouldn't fight so hard against it"... *<---take advice from your own words there.*
Babs rails on it hard enough, then you come along and throw your two cents in in the form of comments like these? What is one supposed to think?
*You are OFFENDED because SOME people choose to put their FAITH in God, ABOVE science? Oh well...whine on. After all, it's your "right".....*then further concluding that because your preconceived assertion is true, which it's not, atheists are close minded because they choose to side with logic and reason instead of faith and dogma... The second one, exactly the same thing, asserting that the big bang theory is invalid* because you simply don't understand it.* It's a little more complicated than "nothing happened to nothing"... You also seem to be implying that because accurate, trustable science sometimes takes many years to complete, it's invalid or innacurate... Sorry man, science doesn't work that way.
*That's right. Science doesn't work that way. You need to quit being concerned about selling believers on YOUR belief. It's A LOT more complicated than that. Your logic is just that......yours. You are MUCH more determined to disprove God than I or Braz have shown to disprove Science. Wake up.*
You guys make this accusation left and right when I'm sitting here telling you *you cannot know my own personal beliefs better than I can,*
*P, you are KING of dictating what it is that believers believe.......again, take your own advice. You are incapable of showing an ounce of respect to any who believe contrary to you. There's nothing UNREASONABLE about believing in GOOD. So what if "nutty Christians" believe Christ will come from the sky and bring peace/love to the world? What's the worse thing that could happen????...that it WON'T happpen. And being you are so logical, quit worrying about something that just isn't a THREAT.......as in, AT ALL to you.*
*No one is pushing religion in school OTHER THAN islam. *_In California one school, the Excelsior Elementary, took its teaching of Islam to seventh graders to extremes. School pupils were made to dress up in Islamic clothing, to memorize Koranic verses and even to fast during their lunch hour to mimic Muslim behavior during Ramadan._

*» Storm Track Infiltration: Institutional Jihad &#8211; Islamic Indoctrination in American Classrooms - Blogger News Network Braz *
Every moment these people force their garbage down anyones throat unwillingly, they should be stopped. 
*I say that and I get called a racist. You, in short, are a HYPOCRITE.*
I still think there are enough smart people to overcome the shit that is holding us back from achieving greatness. 
*You forget. A LOT of those scientists ARE believers.....IMAGINE THAT. *
Originally Posted by *Brazko*  
_Yep, Perfect Sense...but come on Babs, you're just looking at it with a value derived from a Surface only Skeptical View and Opinion, It goes much, much, much, deeper than That.. Science just has to explain it for you, be patient and wait For science to Explain how Nothing happened..._
_*That statement from Braz was by far the most light-hearted with only a TOUCH of cynicism. I got it.......too bad you didn't. And a little FYI, it DOES go much deeper than what you are willing to even BEGIN to accept. *_


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## Babs34 (Oct 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Ever notice that the truly religious don't have an ounce of logic?


*No, but LOOL, I DO notice that you are oh so repetitive. *


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## Babs34 (Oct 19, 2009)

.... and even if you don't find anything, which I know you are Not, I'm still shipping Her to you.. PM me the Address..
*Any one care to "enlighten" me here?*


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## Babs34 (Oct 19, 2009)

*And you see the kind of crap this guy NEEDLESSLY throws my way?*
*Hypocrite, that's all you are P.*
Originally Posted by *Babs34*  
_LOL, Morgan never says which it is.
Are we eager or scared to die?_


Quite the* false dichotomy* right there Babs... You know what that means, right?

Too bad it's not simply "eager or scared to die", there are infact other options...

Howbout "content with death"? 

It's going to happen one day, whether you want it to or not. Nobody makes it out of life alive. So why fear it? What is to fear? 

As Morgen put it, we were dead before and it wasn't so terrible. 


Sure tells us evil atheists A LOT about your line of thinking though. Tells me you do infact fear death. Also tells me that's probably a HUGE reason for your dogmatic faith. You fear death and the thought of non existence so much, you're willing to accept anything that will brainwash you into believing there actually is some kind of afterlife as the truth. 

Well, luckily, not all of us are that weak minded... the rest of us will just keep society advancing while the rest of the fanatics piggy back all of sciences successes and take them all for granted... 

*You know what prompted him to respond this way? Because I said WHO LOOKS FORWARD TO DEATH? That's it. That's all it takes for him to behave like that.*


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## sunshine17542 (Oct 19, 2009)

Life comes from life....


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

Pitiful.. NOthing you just said had any reminiscence of Truth...., So, this will be Short:

1.I didn't attack you, but said your *observation* was narrow minded, idiotic, & Ignorant; All True - FActs

2. Organized REligion or All Religion is Not bad; People who manipulate and Abuse are Bad; the only category they fall in is the *HUMAN RACE*

3. You only started observing my words and Statements over the Last 24hrs.. and thats How you were able to Come to that Concluded Observation; *PITIFUL*

4. Big Bang Theory Invalid because I, don't understand it..., Yeah..Right...(*alert, alert, alert** sArCaSM*)

5. Implying that I mean science is inAccurate because we Humans, Take to Long in developing Methods and Tools, that our Mind Conceive from thoughtfully processing the information, is me saying Just that.. Science is Accurate, Our mind designed every tool of Science..and will continue until infinity, the roles will never reverse.... But yeah some people are without the ability to think pass the Needed mechanical Tool..., It's not an Opinion, It's documented Fact/History/*SCIENCE*... Our Mind processes all and any information that is Present in this Universe before, any tool is brought forth to physically observe/confirm it... the Tool that our Mind conceives to design to allow it possible to do so.. The mind is/Was Present in the first Single Cell Organism.. Life



and I'm going to try and wrap this up quickly, I'm not wasting too much more energy with discussing this with you, because this may be a personal attack now on your mental status.. you Are *Deranged* ... Just an opinionated observation... but I'll continue on with a few more points..

6.Everybody on here Knows your Personal beliefs.., It's not a *Secret*, but only to yourself.. So, I had to let you in on it... You're the only one who didn't Know it..

7. Show me where I have used the Bible as an Point of Justifying an Arguement.. , I may have had to Explain some Scriptures that some people FAIL to comprehend, But I never use it as A tool to win an Arguement, Matter of Fact, I always provide Scientific Information when I discuss the foundations of my Belief.., That's the only thing you people Trust.., and still, YOu all lack the ability to Understand and Comprehend it, Always clouding it with your Atheistic Beliefs.. *Science Doesn't Work That Way..*

and this is pointless, like I said, I know now, not to waste anymore energy on you.. You are not Competent and there is nothing I can Do to correct that.. Nature must take it's course, and Your Mind must Evolve..., That's My belief.., Say what you Want.., Your words no longer have any meaning to Me, you are of Unstable Mind, Body, & Spirit...

Carry on with Your Life, I won't comment on your Posts, Don't comment On mine.. Isn't that the Freedom you ask for, Well, You are Free from me Pushing anything on you...

*Hit the Ignore Button, that's the Escape Clause from REality*





PadawanBater said:


> Well Braz, to tell you the truth, I actually had you a step above Babs and the rest of the fundies. I've never really read you resort to personal attacks before this post, which was without question totally uncalled for, as I'll explain later.
> 
> First off, I chose my words carefully, this is what I said;
> 
> ...


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

"Be Enlightened"



Babs34 said:


> .... and even if you don't find anything, which I know you are Not, I'm still shipping Her to you.. PM me the Address..
> *Any one care to "enlighten" me here?*





Brazko said:


> Yes, and it was a Serious Reply, I have never Acknowledged or, Dismissed Science for any suited purpose..., You cannot bring forth one statement I have made that Contradicts what I have just said.. If you can, I would Give over to you my life, Everything, HOuse , Car, Job, *Wife (you can have her ) *whatever of your choosen if you can show me 1 statement where I have dismissed Science or implied it contradictive or favorably to anything towards my belief when I decided to of My chooosen, because honestly, I know of No contradictions, and if I did, I would acknowledge it, Go ahead and Justify it to me, by showing where I have stated such contradictive Verbage, regarding Science...


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## NOWitall (Oct 19, 2009)

reality is transitory.

just being in a book doesnt make you exist no mater what format the book is in.

being a work of fiction doesnt mean that you dont exist. it just means you get to encourage faith.

the differance between fiction and non fiction, is a %. once group a-g says its reality, it becomes reality.

like Scientology, theres folks saying thats real, even though it was written by a writer of fiction as fiction, now to many people that is reality.

144,000. ok if thats all that gets in. why dont you stop recruiting at 144,000. and how does it work, is it a first come first serve sorta thing, some kinda lottery, draw straws??
cuz all the new people are statistically ruining my odds.

some people prefer to beleive their profit read their holy tome from a magic hat. cuz if i was god thats how id communicate with humans, some sketchy dude reading from a hat nobody else is alowed to look into. but now its reality for alot of people.

if you wonder the planet im sure youll meet folks that believe in narnia, sure psychosis doesnt make it real real, but it makes it real enough for them.

and what is proof. what could god possibly do to prove his existence (and if anybody comes back with "well he made the universe didnt he" kiss my ass and go read a fuckin book, as you have no idea how to think)

the religious dont wanna believe shit just happens
and the non-religious dont wanna believe they arent in control

and it seems those that scream the loudest really only want to convince themselves

but back to the proof thing. stop quoting the bible, god didnt write that. in fact according to the MAN-written bible the only thing god wrote were some commandments. that most his followers ignore. there is no proof god exists, just like theres no proof he doesnt. there never can be. even if it was scientificly proven that the universe created itself, theres no way of saying the dominoes weren't set up by god, no matter who started the bricks falling.

thats the great thing about god, it allows for faith, even requires it.
wheras science only allows for facts theories, and requires nothing but an ability to stare at complex quantum equations while some guy goes "see, now does it make sense"

but some of yall have me wrong. while i did mean we should stop arguing, and get back to issues worthy of contemplation. i meant it less globaly than localy.
I.E. YOU TWO.

your arguing with each other like a couple of well read 8 year old girls.
and its fun to read dont get me wrong, ok actually it isnt.

if yall are gonna keep chicken heading it up in here could you please

please

PLEASE

STOP CHANGING WORD COLOR AND BOLD EVEY 2 SENTENCES ITS ANNOYING.
most people can read without needing shiny colors to draw the eye.
we still have about 3-5 generations before humanity has terminal adhd


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## CrackerJax (Oct 19, 2009)

Even the church doesn't think that the Bible is the word of G*D. You've all twisted it for your selves. 
Only fringe elements thing the Bible is true.


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

What are you Talking about Depressed, Cracked OUt, Thnk i NO it All, IE YOu...

What *bible* verses I'm quoting True to Be True of the God you Think I'm saying to Be True, although I've stated it for more than enough times...

Hit the Fucking Ignore Button if you Don't like to READ MY *FUCKING POSTs* ..

I'm Sorry If it brings BAck BaD MeMOries for YOu..

and Don't get me Wrong.. I mean It.. 

so Keep PUtting Forth your Stupid RAmbles, and WE can discuss Them as WEll

and HEre's a lill Pink for You 2 




NOWitall said:


> reality is transitory.
> 
> just being in a book doesnt make you exist no mater what format the book is in.
> 
> ...


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Even the church doesn't think that the Bible is the word of G*D. You've all twisted it for your selves.
> Only fringe elements thing the Bible is true.


 
Exactly, Who care's what the Church body thinks, Everything in this World is for YOU to bring into Understanding for yourself... The only person who thinks the Bible is True or Untrue is YOU..


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## CrackerJax (Oct 19, 2009)

Exactly... just because the church invented the religion is no reason to actually follow their teachings.... just make it up as you go along.... right?


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Exactly... just because the church invented the religion is no reason to actually follow their teachings.... just make it up as you go along.... right?


 
Everything in this world came into being. IE, invention, Evolution... To gain understanding, through taking in the History and Knowledge of Human Experiences is not going along with it.. It's just that, adding to the Human Experience, Learning From it, and Passing it along..? Just as the Scientific Works you come across, that you only feel is sufficient for your Human Experience..that's fine, that is what you will add to it, Learn From, and pass it Along.. I Choose to understand and Accept the whole Experience, Learn From it, and Pass it Along..


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## CrackerJax (Oct 19, 2009)

Ur a poor teacher... you can't even communicate well.

The Bible comes from the church... it's theirs. They don't believe it to be the "word" of G*D anymore... but hey...just keep making it up!!!


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

Yeah, I'll keep making it Up, The Church and Bible isn't part of the Human RAce & Human Existence.. That belongs to Us Earthlings... The Church is a Syndicate Alien Species That invaded our Civilization, and Mutated our Monkey Brains.. How's that for making it Up..., Did I communicate that well enough for you... I think that synopsis should win me some Kind of Fictional book Deal..., I'm so Excited!!


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

The Fictional Jesus, in The Made up Fictional Bible talks of and Depicts a Spiritual Being that Encompasses everything in the Universe.., 

The REality (REAL WORLD) Physics and Scientific Genius who had plenty of Scientific Book deals and Added to the Human RAce Knowledge said the SAme Thing..!! He fell under the Spell as Well!!


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## Sure Shot (Oct 19, 2009)

Wow, babble on from Babylon!


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm a Reality Sure Shot too, I do it Blind folded!! oops..., I drooled when I babbled that 1


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

Ya'll be good until I get back, I have to run to the Store, I'm out of Toilet Paper!!


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## CrackerJax (Oct 19, 2009)

Get some tin foil while ur out...


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## Babs34 (Oct 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Get some tin foil while ur out...


*CJ, face it. You lost your ability to be funny with your one-liners long ago.* *You can't stand the FACT that everything Braz said MAKES SENSE.*
*He WON that one btw, LOL.*

*CJ, you are allowing yourself to become a robot.*
*I wish I could draw the way I once did. I would love to dedicate a cartoon just for you.*
*Use your imagination here!*
*I can see you sitting with two very young children, oh...let's say 5 and 9. Their mother has just passed away from cancer. They're balling their little eyes out.....along comes CJ (or P) with a "dose of reality."*
*Now, now.......quit your sniveling!!! I already told you once. Your mom is in the freezer awaiting science to bring a cure. She'll be here for your high school graduation!!! *

*It's getting old watching any of you think you are making any one other than yourselves look like a fool.*

*Science is SELLING people TOO......IMAGINE THAT.*
*They keep telling me that THIS IS THE MOST EXCITING TIME to have my disease!!! LOL, what a f'ing joke. Talk about selling FAIRY TALES.*

*They don't even KNOW WHY people have it, let alone how to find a cure. Oh, but they have a GAZILLION theories----NONE of which have brought upon anything remotely close to a cure. Instead they offer me an assortment of BULLSHIT medications that are SINFULLY priced. What do these miracle drugs do for me? NOTHING......except destroy my body. *
* Science says they "Might"...."possibly" help, but they just aren't sure yet. LOL...........but they also found that smoking weed DOES IN FACT ward off the progression. So instead of using it to help people like myself, they make it illegal. They've got to make sure they put a patent on God's herb.*
*Yeap CJ....God gave you herb. *
*Say THANK YOU LORD. *


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## MexicanWarlord420 (Oct 19, 2009)

My god is a flying space monster who will rape your family(only after they die) if you do not believe in it. He exists. There's evidence of my God all around. Hell there's even an old book about my god so it must be true. PROVE ME WRONG


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## CrackerJax (Oct 19, 2009)

Babs has lost it. I found it, but i threw it away.


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## Babs34 (Oct 19, 2009)

MexicanWarlord420 said:


> My god is a flying space monster who will rape your family(only after they die) if you do not believe in it. He exists. There's evidence of my God all around. Hell there's even an old book about my god so it must be true. PROVE ME WRONG


 *naa, you're free to believe as you wish.....just don't bring your god around my family. The law states I have a right to defend myself. *


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## Babs34 (Oct 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Babs has lost it. I found it, but i threw it away.


*...and a big hardy har har to you too. *


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## Green Cross (Oct 19, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *naa, you're free to believe as you wish.....just don't bring your god around my family. The law states I have a right to defend myself. *


Did you forget about freedom of speech 

Only Jesus Saves


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## Babs34 (Oct 19, 2009)

*No way, I cling to it with my dear life...and laugh as CJ mocks it.*

*AMEN*


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## Green Cross (Oct 19, 2009)

*Doctors: 8-Year-Old H1N1 Patient 'Miracle Child'

Palm Beach Gardens Girl Spent More Than 3 Months In Hospital With Swine Flu

**MIAMI -- *Doctors are calling an 8-year-old Palm Beach Gardens girl a "miracle child." 

Cameron Pirozzi was cleared to return home Thursday after months of bravely fighting the swine flu. 

Her parents said Cameron came down with a cough and fever in late June. 

"I remember one morning waking up and feeling very hot and (I) barely could keep my eyes open," Cameron said. 

Her parents took her to St. Mary's Medical Center on June 27. 

"The next day, her lungs were completely white and by Wednesday, July 1, she was put on a ventilator," her mother, Kelly Pirozzi, said. 

Doctors found that her left lung had collapsed. It took a month before she tested positive for swine flu. 

She spent months at Miami's Children Hospital. Then in September, she was admitted to Jackson Memorial Medical Center for rehabilitation, where she had to learn how to walk, talk, eat on her own and dress herself. 

Dr. Seema Khurana of the Jackson Memorial Medical Center said Cameron received physical, occupational and speech therapy as well as neuropsychology and social work in addition to medical attention and nursing. 

Her mother said they were proud of how Cameron beat the swine flu. 

"(There's a sense of) pride that we feel (about) how hard she has worked every minute of every single day since she got sick to come home to us," Kelly Pirozzi said. 

Cameron said she's happy to be home with her family and looks forward to going back to school. 

"I'm happy because it's the first time that I get to see my brother in three and a half months," she said. 

The family said they plan to celebrate with an unforgettable birthday party for Cameron, who will turn 9 in a few days." 

See you can actually educate yourself and still have faith ...and they have more experience with life and death than most arguing here. 

These doctors know they can only do so much, without Gods help.

Who do you thank for your blessings?


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## CrackerJax (Oct 19, 2009)

Nature....... of course. 

When an infant dies ... who do you curse?


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Get some tin foil while ur out...


 
Got plenty of Tin foil, I use it for Booby Traps, a small piece Works Well for a Reflector on tripp wires..

I did pick up some Plastic Saran Wrap so you can Suffocate yourself if you like Tho'


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## CrackerJax (Oct 19, 2009)

How christian of you... I'm not surprised.

I can feel the desperation.


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> How christian of you... I'm not surprised.
> 
> I can feel the desperation.


WoW, CJ Surprised..., Bush Said it Best.. Shock and Awe..baby, Shock and Awe, and don't worry I'm not desperate, but it would not be Christian of Me to place temptation in front of you like that..


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## CrackerJax (Oct 19, 2009)

Just admit you need a myth to comfort you.... that's all that's required.


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Just admit you need a myth to comfort you.... that's all that's required.


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## Babs34 (Oct 19, 2009)

*LOOOL Braz, go ahead with your bad self. *


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## PadawanBater (Oct 19, 2009)

> *And you accuse me of being on a pedestal? LOL*


...in the intelligence department, obviously. But not anymore, so don't feel too bad.




> *Tortured by! LOL, you made a funny.*





> *But hey, God FORBID people believe in the GOODNESS of God, in the HOPE of a coming from the One who loves us and manages to fill in the blanks....that's just TORTURE, lol....get a life.*


Typical fundie, "God of the gaps" might satisfy your curiosity, but not mine. 




> *You, as an atheist, have come accross time and time again as an EXTREMIST. What will you call your movement? And what will the color of the robes be? Really.....I'm on the lookout. People like YOU scare me.*


Then I suggest you take a look at this thread;

https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/252681-atheism-1.html

Where I outline a bit of my own personal ''atheistic philosophy'', if you had to give it a name. Advocating peace, opposing ignorance and stupidity wherever I see it... TOTAL EXTREMIST! 




> *That's ALL you do is disrespect every LAST thing a "scary disbeliever" puts forth about their beliefs. I've never seen any person yet come across as aggressive as you. Just because you say you are being logical JUST DOESN'T MAKE IT SO.*





> *For the record, I have NOT come back with "my Bible says this and that".....you just don't listen!!!*


If what I'm saying doesn't make sense to you, then it's your responsibility to point out WHERE or WHY it doesn't. Show me. Everything I've been saying has a foundation in solid logic, I wouldn't say it if it didn't. Find me one thing you think I've said that is illogical somehow, tell me why you think that, and I'll explain it.

If saying something I think is true offends your beliefs, well, I really don't give a damn, to be quite honest, because if something a person on the internet says has the ability to threaten a belief you might hold (however the fuck that is even possible I'll never know...) then that belief is not worth holding onto in the first place. You only hold onto these basic ancient beliefs because your scared to let them go. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. It's NATURAL. I was scared at one point too, that's one of the KEY components of keeping a believer, a believer. Fear. Without the threat of Hell there is no way to keep people under complete control, by controlling the mind. 




> *You are OFFENDED because SOME people choose to put their FAITH in God, ABOVE science? Oh well...whine on. After all, it's your "right".....*


Absolutely. Would you not be offended if *Billions *of people believed something that you *knew*, and had data and research to *prove*, lowered their IQ's, or howabout if they believed in something that no other single topic in existence is responsible for more human deaths? If *Billions *of people believed in things based on nothing more than senses that are known to be misleading without corroberation and analyzation? Yes, I'm offended that you think you're better than me. Yes, I'm offended that you think you have more rights than me. Yes, I'm offended that you believe I deserve to spend *ETERNITY *being tortured. 




> You are MUCH more determined to disprove God than I or Braz have shown to disprove Science.


How can you even make this claim? Look, I'm sitting here, right here typing this in english, you can read english right? Do you know what conprehension is? Do I really need to resort to all CAPS? Really?... really?
How do you suggest I go about "disproving" God?... Hmm... no go ahead, think it over... I'll wait.... .... .....

Howbout when I want to start "disproving" the Easter Bunny too... What, am I gonna go get some footprints he never left... Am I going to catch an invisible Easter Bunny running through my garden one day on camera... 

*I do not believe a God exists. I CANNOT prove something DOES NOT EXIST with 100% certainty. You cannot grasp this concept... You saying "Prove God doesn't exist" is NO DIFFERENT than me saying "Prove Allah doesn't exist" or "Prove the flying pink unicorn doesn't exist"... YOU are the one CLAIMING something DOES EXIST. I have NEVER, NOT ONCE, NOT EVER, said "God does not exist". The fact you cannot grasp this one simple bit of informationg that I've said at least 3 different times now, tells me you either aren't reading the stuff I'm posting or not understanding it, at all. *




> You are incapable of showing an ounce of respect to any who believe contrary to you. There's nothing UNREASONABLE about believing in GOOD. So what if "nutty Christians" believe Christ will come from the sky and bring peace/love to the world? What's the worse thing that could happen????...that it WON'T happpen. And being you are so logical, quit worrying about something that just isn't a THREAT.......as in, AT ALL to you.


I don't believe people who blindly follow a God that would encourage such behavior as it's followers exhibit deserve respect. If you can't see the clear threat organized religion is to humanity, you need to wake up and open your eyes, pick up a goddamn history book and get with the fuckin' program. 

What's the worst thing that could happen? Well, we've pretty much seen the worst of it haven't we? Take a look around you. Religion has dominated humanity for it's entire existence... I guess it's just a coincidence that humanity has been in a perpetual state of war, in one place or another, since we established societies. We've ran the experiment long enough, I really believe 12 thousand years is a good run, how many people have died as a direct result of religion over the past few thousand years? That would be a figure I'd like to take a look at! 

Bottom line is, the world today is the way it is *because of organized religion.* Period. You ever see any organized religion in movies like Star Wars or Star Trek? Think of any futuristic movie or book... how many of them have organized religion...? aaah, again I guess that's just a coincidence among sci-fi writers huh? 




> *No one is pushing religion in school OTHER THAN islam.*


http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/10/21/california-religion-pushed-on-kids-at-public-school.htm

http://conservativeconvictions.blogspot.com/2009/01/call-to-dunkirk-launches-mass-exodus.html

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/rel_liberty/publicschools/overview.aspx




> Every moment these people force their garbage down anyones throat unwillingly, they should be stopped.
> *I say that and I get called a racist. You, in short, are a HYPOCRITE.*


You're not allowed to force shit upon me if I don't consent to it Babs, including your massiah's "good word". Till I ask you about it, keep it to yourself. I have a right to defend myself against your force. I do that by speaking up against it. You say something stupid to me that makes no sense at all, I tell you how stupid it is and why it doesn't make any sense at all, then you call me a hypocrite...? How does that make sense again? 

*



You forget. A LOT of those scientists ARE believers.....IMAGINE THAT.

Click to expand...

*Don't kid yourself Babs. We both know the vast majority of scientists are atheists or agnostics, do I need to go get statistics for you to deny? Sure there are religious scientists, but even most of them identify with a more spiritual form of "God", and not at all any of the Abrahamic religions God. Yet *another thing* that's very telling about you fundie creeps... You guys give so much away without even realizing it... You try to steal the credibility of actual scientists (ironicly the exact same ones other fundies oppose, lmfao...) by claiming "they believed in God!!", I've heard accusations of Einstein believing in God by fundies, that Darwin believed in God and he "confessed on his deathbed!"... even that ID's worst nightmare, Richard fuckin' Dawkins believes in God, and he publishes book after book with nothing but evidence, research, and data pointing to the opposite to mask it... You try to bring credible scientists down to your level because you know how stupid it is to rely on faith to assess reality. Bottom line.



> *You know what prompted him to respond this way? Because I said WHO LOOKS FORWARD TO DEATH? That's it. That's all it takes for him to behave like that.*


You immediately start off with a false premise, *again.* "Who looks forward to death?"... uhh... nobody. I'd like you to explain how being content with death means your eager to die. Wtf? How do you come up with that shit?



> Pitiful.. NOthing you just said had any reminiscence of Truth...., So, this will be Short:
> 
> 1.I didn't attack you, but said your *observation* was narrow minded, idiotic, & Ignorant; All True - FActs
> 
> ...




1. Actually, those are all pretty much opinions. Do you know what a fact is?

2. Organized religion is evil, plain and simple. There's not a goddamn thing any organized religion has contributed to society. All of them leech off the gullible by selling a story their minds are programmed from birth to accept without question. It's like when your parents tell you not to take candy from strangers... Nobody told us about the churches _candy..._

3. You *clearly* posted comments in agreement with Babs exaggerating sciences shortcomings. I showed you exactly where you did it. It doesn't take weeks of observation to notice something so obvious. 

4. "Nothing happened to nothing" - yeah, you don't understand *shit* if that's what you think the big bang theory states.

5. ...didn't make any sense. Smoke a bowl and retype that into something I can understand. (see, there's nothing wrong with saying you don't understand something, holy shit, you guys might wanna try it sometime!!)
"Deranged!?" bahahaha, that's a new one! That sounds pretty cool actually!

6. You guys need to take a course on the scientific method. Stuff you think is science isn't. Stuff that is, you don't accept... The problem lies with your ability to trust the things your book tells you is evil, it tells you what is evil because the people who wrote it knew certain things would come along and threaten it's credibility, like advancements in science. You're the ones with the ball and chain around your neck keeping you shackled inside the box. There's not a damn thing keeping me from unveiling anything about the universe that it decides to show me. All I care about is reality, if it's real, I can test it, if it's not, I can't. The thing you guys don't realize is that even if any sort of god *was *real, it wouldn't be measurable by science, yet you still sit there and claim that "science has told us so much about the creator and his creation"... Your *own book *says you have to take it on faith alone. 

I'll comment on whatever the hell I want, thanks very much! If you or any other fundie's spit anything stupid over these public forums, you can bet your ass I'll be there to point it out. 


*



They don't even KNOW WHY people have it, let alone how to find a cure. Oh, but they have a GAZILLION theories----NONE of which have brought upon anything remotely close to a cure. Instead they offer me an assortment of BULLSHIT medications that are SINFULLY priced. What do these miracle drugs do for me? NOTHING......except destroy my body. 

Click to expand...

*


> *Science says they "Might"...."possibly" help, but they just aren't sure yet. LOL...........but they also found that smoking weed DOES IN FACT ward off the progression. So instead of using it to help people like myself, they make it illegal. They've got to make sure they put a patent on God's herb.*
> *Yeap CJ....God gave you herb. *
> *Say THANK YOU LORD.*


Even more insight... While I'm sympathetic towards your condition, whatever it is, science is not responsible for it or for curing it.


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## Babs34 (Oct 19, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> ...in the intelligence department, obviously. But not anymore, so don't feel too bad.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If what I'm saying doesn't make sense to you, then it's your responsibility to point out WHERE or WHY it doesn't. Show me. 
*Wrong, it's not my responsiblitliy, but I did so ALREADY.*

Even more insight... While I'm sympathetic towards your condition, whatever it is, science is not responsible for it or for curing it. 
*According to EVERYTHING you have ARGUED, ya think not?*
*LOOOOOOOOOOL*
*As for the rest, blah, blah blah blah blah....no commas necessary.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 19, 2009)

Absolutely. Would you not be offended if *Billions *of people believed something that you *knew*, and had data and research to *prove*, lowered their IQ's, or howabout if they believed in something that no other single topic in existence is responsible for more human deaths? If *Billions *of people believed in things based on nothing more than senses that are known to be misleading without corroberation and analyzation? 
*The End.....and I rest my case. Your stats are off on what the billions need to be broken down into.*
*My knowledge exceeded that of yours in one area--so far as "proof".....you are delusional. And I really, in TRULY wish it weren't so.*


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

To get back on the Topic of ID bABs, I want to present some videos VIA, A Failed Atheist (i can say that b/c they can't c my posts ) from the "Who's Down with God" Thread, although they were jestering at something else, I begin to click on the Videos and began (LMAO) Hysterically.. 

1. They kept saying Atheism & REligion all in the Same Sentence..

2. The annoying nasal Tone Voice, kept me saying " I know that Voice" which I now think is Ben Stein.. I don't really line up with the Guy on a lot of Issues, But I love his Visine Commercials (visine is a Stoners Gift from God and Science )

3. It's just hilariously Funny with all the Sound effects..


anyhow, I want to post them here because they are not only Relative to the Topic, but are the Topic at Hand... These are not videos I have personally chosen to prove any kind of Faith or Belief I have, they actually go against some of my held beliefs, but nevertheless they are still on Topic of "Proof of The Existence of An intelligent Creator" 

Funny, Funny, Vids.. If you need a Laugh, and some Eye CAndy.. Enjoy

Right now, I'm starting to Watch the Movie Expelled, I'm on Part 1 right now, It's very amusing as WEll, another good one I would suggest watching as it is based on the Topic As Well..




http://media.abovetopsecret.com/media/394/Creation_is_a_Scientific_Fact/


http://media.abovetopsecret.com/media/634/Creation_is_a_Scientific_Fact_P2/



http://media.abovetopsecret.com/media/1154/Creation_is_a_Scientific_Fact_P3/



http://media.abovetopsecret.com/media/1417/Creation_is_a_Scientific_Fact_P4/


These are the Links to The Movie Expelled

http://www.zshare.net/video/204831864484c47c/



http://www.zshare.net/video/20483262309c2687/


As a matter of FAct, I'm going over to +++REp them on Sharing that Link.. Imagine That, God Sure does Work in Mysterious Ways, as Well as, the Mathematical Probablilities of Chance as explained through Science...would eventually lead to me given her Rep...., I only hope they can still recieve rep from somebody that doesn't Exist..., But wait!! That would actually go against the VEry Laws of Physics/Nature, and the Very notion of My rep not existing because, I do NOt exist... Wow, this is Getting to confusing...


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

When Your Name is Chef Boyardee

who cares if You can Melt Butter


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## KrazyAnneBanks (Oct 19, 2009)

there could be a huge arguement in the case for metaphysics. that there are realms of reality unknown to us, or at least technology that affects us that is not based on any type of physics known to man. stuff like time travel, materialization from nothing, or spiritual forces that we know very little about. 

i suppose we wont know until we die, but then again, those that do go can never come back to describe the "afterlife" as it were. 

its hard for people to prove something that they cannot see. even now, we dont know for certain that our assumptions about the universe are accurate. look at all the assumptions that people have made in the past. flat earth, spraying ddt on children to prove its safety... etc. 

mankind has yet to discover the source of our existance. as where science argues that anything is possible in time. that over billions of years elements came together to form single cells, organells, organs, and eventually, advanced life as we know now. 

but how can we ponder such things when we have yet to master our own planet?

i think the human race has another millenium or so before we notice any substantial change in our physical being... just look at what we have accomplished in the last 500 years of human history.


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

That was very insightfully put.., We have yet to Master our On Planet, and at the very Least, Ourselves!!! hmmm, well Put KAB....

btw CJ, she has your Avatar Beat, gonna have to step the Wardrobe game Up..,


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## Dr. Greenhorn (Oct 19, 2009)

Brazko said:


> btw CJ, she has your Avatar Beat, gonna have to step the Wardrobe game Up..,


yup, nice Avi KAB


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## morgentaler (Oct 19, 2009)

KrazyAnneBanks said:


> i suppose we wont know until we die, but then again, those that do go can never come back to describe the "afterlife" as it were.


Of course if there's nothing after death, then we won't know... we'll be dead


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## KrazyAnneBanks (Oct 19, 2009)

in any case, religion is the plan to kill the idea of god and reinvent it for marketing and social purposes. its a business like everything else. 

anyone watch zeitgeist?


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## Brazko (Oct 19, 2009)

KrazyAnneBanks said:


> in any case, religion is the plan to kill the idea of god and reinvent it for marketing and social purposes. its a business like everything else.
> 
> anyone watch zeitgeist?


Yeah, I seen it a While Back.., Guess I'll have to view it again, for a Fresh intake.. But yeah, the People are dissecting themselves from religious establisments because of that very thing... That's what it was used for in the Beginning when it became an establishment and not a following, then a sense of an Unjust purpose began to set in with the people and they had to change the Game plan Up, NOw it's evolved into a 21st Century Business, Headed by Business as Usual Men... People are Waking up tho'.. Everything takes a little Time..


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## KrazyAnneBanks (Oct 19, 2009)

people are idiots. they follow whatever makes them feel good or accepted. 

religion is no different.


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## morgentaler (Oct 19, 2009)

KrazyAnneBanks said:


> people are idiots. they follow whatever makes them feel good or accepted.
> 
> religion is no different.


That statement indicates you're not so Krazy.


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## KrazyAnneBanks (Oct 19, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> That statement indicates you're not so Krazy.


 
crazy, not stupid.


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## KrazyAnneBanks (Oct 19, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> That statement indicates you're not so Krazy.


 
crazy is staying up 10 days blitzed out of your mind on lsd and weed. 

stupid is following a bunch of idiots praising someone they never met worshiping their teaching and submitting to a cause that really is an elaborate lie.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Yeah, I seen it a While Back.., Guess I'll have to view it again, for a Fresh intake.. But yeah, the People are dissecting themselves from religious establisments because of that very thing... That's what it was used for in the Beginning when it became an establishment and not a following, then a sense of an Unjust purpose began to set in with the people and they had to change the Game plan Up, NOw it's evolved into a 21st Century Business, Headed by Business as Usual Men... People are Waking up tho'.. Everything takes a little Time..


It's nothing new in the 21st century.... religion has always been corrupt.


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> It's nothing new in the 21st century.... religion has always been corrupt.


That's your problem CJ, and why You people are blinded by your own Faith and belief...You see only what your Faith/Religious belief wants you to See...because you would have noticed my first sentence that proclaimed the same thang.. Ignorants blinded by Religion


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## Stoney McFried (Oct 20, 2009)

Atheism isn't belief.It's the absence of belief.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

So true.... but the believers cannot perceive such a concept. They need to have a pretend world.


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## Stoney McFried (Oct 20, 2009)

I've stopped arguing in these threads, because they've degenerated into nothing more than "neener neener" posts in the past few days,and it gives me a headache.Have some delicious Jesus con carne.


CrackerJax said:


> So true.... but the believers cannot perceive such a concept. They need to have a pretend world.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Yes.... the desperation has definitely gone up a notch. It doesn't bother me tho... just reassures me that I made the right choice.


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

Stoney McFried said:


> Atheism isn't belief.It's the absence of belief.


I hear you Stone..but Atheism is not the absence of belief, everybody believes in something..By literal working definition, I am an Atheist, however I can convey and understand the meaning of words in which the context it is giving..That's why the applied meaning of Atheism had me over joyed..I was happy to find people that had similar moral context of living and the Universe..But I never got the chance to claim such a title because you all are no different from any other religion..To held up in pride in your own beliefs, to see that..


Neener neener is always prevalent when the two opposing sides try to discuss anything..nobody wants to be logical or reasonable..

Atheism is the absent belief in some cosmological God..or gods.., however I believe Words put in context describe meaning, It is simply the words that keep people blinded to the true meaning being conveyed..Like I told CJ earlier, If Positive tHinking works for some people and not Dowins..It accomplishes the same things, what's the problem if you know it to be the same thing.. Its the people that are held in a false conception who you need to explain things to, but in a manner that will allow them to be open in receiving what you have to say,

That is the only problem, People held up in the pride of their belief Atheist or Religious..Just like CJ just did, won't acknowledge being wrong, So I must be desperate, yeah that's what it was, I'm Desperate (Sarcasm)

Anyhow, Its good to see your Sexy self Posting Again,


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

you create ur own hypothesis and then answer them urself...and think ur on to something.... u aren't. You've misinterpreted most everything I have written.


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## Stoney McFried (Oct 20, 2009)

I really don't think CJ is close minded or unwilling to admit he's wrong...he, along with myself,has stated that he doesn't know for sure what's out there. But like me, he's unwilling to accept the religious explanation because it offers no real proof. Science offers proof of its theories, and invites others to test them as well. 
As atheists, we're not trying to sell someone on our beliefs...we don't organize in tax free environments seeking donations for our cause,we aren't demanding that everyone believe exactly how we believe,and we don't threaten people with horrible tortures for eternity if they don't.So atheism is the complete polar opposite of religion. 
I guess my responses and those of many others may come off as arrogant or full of pride;I assure you that's not the case.In my case at least,I am just so tired of the religious assuming that their god is everyone's god,and that their beliefs are everyone's beliefs.I'm tired of people assuming I want to hear about Jesus,or Jehovah,without even asking me.It's like a form of mental rape,IMO. 
So yes, I get pissed when I see someone post total nonsense and try to assert it as fact. I get tired of people spouting utter and complete nonsense that a little research on their part could easily refute.I get tired of people posting these things on a public forum becoming angry at people for disagreeing,and accusing these people of picking on them. Because they won't acknowledge that their belief system has oppressed and persecuted people for years,and it needs to be addressed.It needs to be removed from politics,from public life.If they want to believe privately, fine,but unfortunately, many of them cannot seem to do that.They feel this need to convert others to their particular way of thinking.They may think they want to do this because it will"save some souls", but the truth of the matter is, the more people that agree with them,the more it validates their beliefs.They don't want to question themselves.They cling to this belief because they fear the uncertain, the unknown. Fine.If they need this, fine. But they should not expect others to sit quietly and listen to this without responding. And the reason they get pissed when someone disagrees is because they don't want to question it.They cannot face that they may be wrong,that there may be nothing after this life.Nothingness is a terrifying concept to the human mind.It's as hard to grasp as infinity. If everything is in order, explained in a pat little manner,they can sleep at night.They must have a purpose, a meaning for all of this, or they will fall apart.I say fine.As long as they recognize my right to question anything they tell me.And unfortunately, many don't.


Brazko said:


> I hear you Stone..but Atheism is not the absence of belief, everybody believes in something..By literal working definition, I am an Atheist, however I can convey and understand the meaning of words in which the context it is giving..That's why the applied meaning of Atheism had me over joyed..I was happy to find people that had similar moral context of living and the Universe..But I never got the chance to claim such a title because you all are no different from any other religion..To held up in pride in your own beliefs, to see that..
> 
> 
> Neener neener is always prevalent when the two opposing sides try to discuss anything..nobody wants to be logical or reasonable..
> ...


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

Like I said, I hear you Stone, but do you hear yourself, I have never seen a person deny that past.. I have seen people leave religion because of what Organized Religion stands or..,The people you condemn don't make the law..The Law just works to their favor.it s not their fault if it coincides with their belief, Blame the power construct that governs the World..believe me, they are not identified by the title of religion alone.. When a person tried to push unfound Dogma, on you, you address that messenger, but instead anyone with tat title behind their name gets thrown in the attack as well..when I address somebody, I address them..ill say them to include anybody else I have adressesed and any who hold to that same philosophy, but not claSsified as a whole..

Its whatever..do as you feel as necessary to achieve your goal..

Thanks for the Rep, it makes no difference, I still love you too, I'm not blinded by faith, I just live by it, some people just deny it to hide behind it..

Peace, 

I know a fe misspelled words may be N thwre, My managers over my shoulder and some greas just popped into my eye


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

blah blah blah.... this whole time you've been posting...u've been stealing from the ppl who employ you....


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## Stoney McFried (Oct 20, 2009)

I hear myself. Like I said before, I don't claim to know all the answers.


It is their fault that the law coincides with them...because many of them have insinuated themselves into our entire legal and political system,even though there is supposed to be a separation. They seek to force others to conform to their morality,and I for one will fight tooth and nail every step of the way.
I don't have any goals in regards to this other than to make people realize that freedom of religion is also freedom from religion.
Let's put it this way.Say I liked booger eating. Now, let's say you and I meet to have dinner.Knowing that my hobby is not for everyone, the polite thing to do would be to ask you if you would be offended if I talked about it.If you said no, that should be the end of it. However, I assume instead that my hobby is THE hobby,and everyone feels the same way because I feel that way.So as you begin to take a bite of your juicy steak, I start talking about picking my nose and eating it in very descriptive terms.You say you don't believe in eating boogers.Instead of respecting that,I proceed to tell you how people who don't eat their boogers are the minority in this country,and that this country was founded on booger eating,and one day you'll realize you were wrong and you'll be sorry. I don't stop and think...hmmmmm he's absolutely repulsed by booger eating.Why is this?Perhaps it's because he's an individual with his own views?No, instead I keep repeating the same tired thing over and over, on a loop, because I cannot accept any other lifestyle but my own.I don't want to think I may be wrong,because then I will have to reevaluate my entire life and the choices I've made and that's simply too tiring.It's just easier to believe I'm right.
For me, the same level of disgust you'd feel if I did that to you is the same level of disgust I feel on a daily basis when religious people assume their choice is everyone's choice,and the only reason people haven't chosen their choice is because they are ignorant or misguided.Then they have the audacity to be insulted when I explain to them, "No, I won't be doing it that way,I've made my own decisions."
And the rep I gave you was a neg rep,because you were attacking the person and not his argument.No hard feelings.


Brazko said:


> Like I said, I hear you Stone, but do you hear yourself, I have never seen a person deny that past.. I have seen people leave religion because of what Organized Religion stands or..,The people you condemn don't make the law..The Law just works to their favor.it s not their fault if it coincides with their belief, Blame the power construct that governs the World..believe me, they are not identified by the title of religion alone.. When a person tried to push unfound Dogma, on you, you address that messenger, but instead anyone with tat title behind their name gets thrown in the attack as well..when I address somebody, I address them..ill say them to include anybody else I have adressesed and any who hold to that same philosophy, but not claSsified as a whole..
> 
> Its whatever..do as you feel as necessary to achieve your goal..
> 
> ...


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## PadawanBater (Oct 20, 2009)

Stoney McFried said:


> I really don't think CJ is close minded or unwilling to admit he's wrong...he, along with myself,has stated that he doesn't know for sure what's out there. But like me, he's unwilling to accept the religious explanation because it offers no real proof. Science offers proof of its theories, and invites others to test them as well.
> As atheists, we're not trying to sell someone on our beliefs...we don't organize in tax free environments seeking donations for our cause,we aren't demanding that everyone believe exactly how we believe,and we don't threaten people with horrible tortures for eternity if they don't.So atheism is the complete polar opposite of religion.
> I guess my responses and those of many others may come off as arrogant or full of pride;I assure you that's not the case.In my case at least,I am just so tired of the religious assuming that their god is everyone's god,and that their beliefs are everyone's beliefs.I'm tired of people assuming I want to hear about Jesus,or Jehovah,without even asking me.It's like a form of mental rape,IMO.
> So yes, I get pissed when I see someone post total nonsense and try to assert it as fact. I get tired of people spouting utter and complete nonsense that a little research on their part could easily refute.I get tired of people posting these things on a public forum becoming angry at people for disagreeing,and accusing these people of picking on them. Because they won't acknowledge that their belief system has oppressed and persecuted people for years,and it needs to be addressed.It needs to be removed from politics,from public life.If they want to believe privately, fine,but unfortunately, many of them cannot seem to do that.They feel this need to convert others to their particular way of thinking.They may think they want to do this because it will"save some souls", but the truth of the matter is, the more people that agree with them,the more it validates their beliefs.They don't want to question themselves.They cling to this belief because they fear the uncertain, the unknown. Fine.If they need this, fine. But they should not expect others to sit quietly and listen to this without responding. And the reason they get pissed when someone disagrees is because they don't want to question it.They cannot face that they may be wrong,that there may be nothing after this life.Nothingness is a terrifying concept to the human mind.It's as hard to grasp as infinity. If everything is in order, explained in a pat little manner,they can sleep at night.They must have a purpose, a meaning for all of this, or they will fall apart.I say fine.As long as they recognize my right to question anything they tell me.And unfortunately, many don't.


 
Funny, if I posted this exact same thing I suspect I'd of gotten quite a different reply from ol' Braz... cuz the thing is... this is exactly what I've been saying the whole time. 

It's pretty clear you disagree with my posts because of the poster, not the substance.

Take your own advice, get past your ego and put away your pride. This is the internet. 


+rep Stoney (if I could)


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## Stoney McFried (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks.And I have to say for the most part, the atheists have been cordial and succinct.The religious types are the ones who have been using personal attacks and name calling.Just sayin'.


PadawanBater said:


> Funny, if I posted this exact same thing I suspect I'd of gotten quite a different reply from ol' Braz... cuz the thing is... this is exactly what I've been saying the whole time.
> 
> It's pretty clear you disagree with my posts because of the poster, not the substance.
> 
> ...


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Jesus killer!!!


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

No Stoney, People Abuse systems, Everybody don't abuse systems, People Misguided try to Guide (religious or atheist) neither or right

Majority don't agree with system but are conflicted with what the know to be true in their heart...but times are changing, the #s show it..but they are not becoming atheist they are leaving religion

Peace..do as you need and see fit




Stoney McFried said:


> I hear myself. Like I said before, I don't claim to know all the answers.
> 
> 
> It is their fault that the law coincides with them...because many of them have insinuated themselves into our entire legal and political system,even though there is supposed to be a separation. They seek to force others to conform to their morality,and I for one will fight tooth and nail every step of the way.
> ...


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

Sorry 4 spelling..you know


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## PadawanBater (Oct 20, 2009)

lmao, just noticed the new sig CJ


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## morgentaler (Oct 20, 2009)

Stoney McFried said:


> And I have to say for the most part, the atheists have been cordial and succinct.


Consider me the exception 

Though I made no apologies for it.
As soon as anyone starts presenting "God" as an exemplary being or using gibberish and bad science to obfuscate a discussion the gloves are off.

At least nobody tried to go the "flood geology" route.


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## Stoney McFried (Oct 20, 2009)

I haven't really seen you do anything I'd consider trolling. You always respond to whoever is addressing you, you present your side of the argument,you don't wander off into insane babble,or post merely to call someone a name without contributing to the rest of the thread....maybe I missed something......


morgentaler said:


> Consider me the exception
> 
> Though I made no apologies for it.
> As soon as anyone starts presenting "God" as an exemplary being or using gibberish and bad science to obfuscate a discussion the gloves are off.
> ...


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> lmao, just noticed the new sig CJ


I thought that terrific example of high end thinking needed to be shared with everyone... pearls of wisdom don't come along every day. 

Kind of statement that would make William F. Buckley jealous.  Can you imagine it?


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## Stoney McFried (Oct 20, 2009)

I have one..."Nobody understands what I'm saying, therefore I must be a genius...."


CrackerJax said:


> I thought that terrific example of high end thinking needed to be shared with everyone... pearls of wisdom don't come along every day.
> 
> Kind of statement that would make William F. Buckley jealous.  Can you imagine it?


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)




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## robert 14617 (Oct 20, 2009)

Stoney McFried said:


> Thanks.And I have to say for the most part, the atheists have been cordial and succinct.The religious types are the ones who have been using personal attacks and name calling.Just sayin'.


 its not just here , i see it in any form the religious post, its almost expected


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## sunshine17542 (Oct 20, 2009)

hahaha


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## Stoney McFried (Oct 20, 2009)

I know.It's why I stopped posting in the religious threads for a few days.I felt they had degenerated quite a bit because of a few individuals who cannot argue without attacking the person they're arguing with.


robert 14617 said:


> its not just here , i see it in any form the religious post, its almost expected


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

It all starts when they think bigger type case and bold letters somehow adds weight to their words. Uhhhh, no.


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

you guys, must be kidding Me, I'll add Bold and Bigger Words whem I want to Exemplify it in it's context, But now all of a Sudden, Religious People go around Bashing ATheists, Religious Types go around not expressing ideas that don't get turned into a let's make this person Belief of 3 ring Circus Side Show because they are not Human, and We can do it because we are more Logical and REasonable Humans... Let's Just scratch each other's back, demean , degrade, and berate people who are not on Our side, because We don't like Them.. You can say whatever you Want, It Doesn't mean Shit to me, not because you as People don't mean Shit to me, It's that your Logic of What's being said is Full Of Shit, You can't make a RAcist like a person of another Race because you are Logical and REasonable with Them.. and No I don't think any of you are racist... but I think it helps to put in context the meaning of my Thought.., If sensible conversation was possible, it would Happen.., Atheists start all the Bashing in any and every Spiritual / Religious Thread,.. Show me Where a Religious person on here started bashing somebody without having to defend themselves and I'll Show you 10 Atheists to that 1.,, and We can do it all Night, The figures will Add up.. but no they get bashed because 19,000yrs ago, and somebody on T.v., and you saw on the News where somebody did this, but No Religious person ever comes on here trying to Bash you because of your beliefs, We all have one Joint common on here and guess What? It brings Us All together peacefully to discuss.., But it's makes no difference to a personal Grudge and Agenda... This was my last Post addressing any Stupidity for just the Sake of Ignorant Stupidity...

Religious people Bash us ON Threads for no Apparent Reason....,  That wasn't Sarcasm Was it,

Sounded More like a Joke....,

You all Go Find Holy Moses to Argue/ discuss anything with, You will win that debate everytime..


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

You always think we have some sort of personal grudge... I certainly don't. In the end it is you who need to think it's personal, else you have to face the hard truth that myths are unprovable, and in todays modern society..... myths are shrinking.... and rightfully so.


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## robert 14617 (Oct 20, 2009)

i would like nothing better then to have anyone give me proof either way , there are things i don't believe in but if i were to fall ill tomorrow i'll be calling on jesus for help


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> You always think we have some sort of personal grudge... I certainly don't. In the end it is you who need to think it's personal, else you have to face the hard truth that myths are unprovable, and in todays modern society..... myths are shrinking.... and rightfully so.


CJ, that is Funny, and you almost never present your statements as an Grudge,IMO (it happens tho' atleast that is how your position is conveyed), but you offer no Kindness in your Words when you address someone that believes in what you call a Myth..., You are trying to get someone to admit in not believing in a Myth that is an Myth in your Eyes.. The Myth in Your Eyes is NOt true, but that is the Only way you can understand it, but you Must see to Understand people who don't view that Myth of per se' in the same Light as You do... That is all, I state my beliefs, and you continue to say I believe in an Myth, when I express my Meaning, but Words to You only have a Set Meaning.., Words are Not Scientific Terms, where they only mean what the Mean,.. Words Spoken through Human thought carry a variance of meaning when delivered in context to express a Greater Meaning.. Let me see If I can find this video from A.I. that would help explain.. You know when he asked about the Blue fairy and couldn't get the correct answer using specific categories but had to combine categories to understand meaning..., You only combine Scientific meaning in realtion in trying to understand everybody else's meaning when they are speaking in Words that are not contained to only 1 category....

and again it is laughable to suggest a notion of me having a grudge against anything, I only have a grudge against you trying to make me concede to your understanding Only..., but that's the Magic word, I still understand You.. that is all I need to have to gain a Greater Understanding of Me, Myself, and everything Else..

I bet you couldn't even say that with a straight face.. Almost pooped on yourself from holding the laughter inside..


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## PadawanBater (Oct 20, 2009)

robert 14617 said:


> i would like nothing better then to have anyone give me proof either way , there are things i don't believe in *but if i were to fall ill tomorrow i'll be calling on jesus for help*


Wouldn't make any difference to me. I could call Jesus' name all I want, there's no way I can "choose" to believe in him. 

It is not a choice one can make. It's something you either accept or don't when presented with the evidence. To date, no evidence has convinced me any religions are correct.


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## joe900x (Oct 20, 2009)

this question was once explained to me as 
timespace never equals zero because both are a concept of both relative quantities. 
Time is relative and is a concept of our own creation (time doesn't exist without us creating it).
Therefore there is no 'beginning' nor is there an 'end'.
The Universe was presumably made in the 'beginning'.
How can it be that God created everything/Universe in the 'beginning' if that term only existed after we were created to quantify it?
What came first God or Time?
Or did God build the Clock before he built the Universe


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

It all went downhill when man invented the mirror.


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

joe900x said:


> What came first God or Time?
> Or did God build the Clock before he built the Universe


 
Time exists because there is Relation, We did not create time, because Relation existed before we did... time existed because Relation existed...time is simply Change in RElation..

so to answer your Question.. God came First and built the Universe on Time..

you should go share some of your philosophy and input on the Philosophy 1 on 1 thread.. 

Sorry, I mean Philosophy of Life thread..


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Says who? You're just making it up....


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

Says Me.., and I Maybe or maYbe Not just be making it Up>> Who says I'm NOt Right AnnnnnWay..., Science, They can't prove Me Wrong...


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Science can't prove you wrong because you don't even have a workable hypothesis worth examining.... fail.

Just making it up.......


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## morgentaler (Oct 20, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Says who? You're just making it up....


I had to click past the ignore to see what you were referring to.

Funny how there's a common trend in his posts. When he's just commenting on something, he has good sentence structure and his posts are easy to read.

When he starts pulling concepts out of the air, or just making up crap, he switches into mostly caps on every word and run on sentences.

It's why I got tired of talking to him.

Hard to talk to someone who doesn't make any effort to be understood, or uses it to obfuscate the fact that he doesn't know what he's saying.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Because his subconscious knows its drivel...


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

drivel, drivel, droooool.... 

[youtube]v1tkM_f5B9s[/youtube]


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

Cj, I mean God, Have Mercy on your Child... and C*J said, let there be Light...





darkness =


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

As if scientific advances are proving G*D ..  now I've heard everything.


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

Does everthing just Airplane over Your Head... 

Jesus Christ, help me please, Please Jeebus, Help me Please...


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## Xeno420 (Oct 20, 2009)

Please! Stop with the religious threads already!!!! Holy ish! God is nothing more than the big bang and jesus is a retold story of an astrological story. Look into "The naked truth" as reference.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks for the youtube science brush up ... so what?


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

We already Know the Naked Truth, and obviously only a rare few do, anyhow, this isn't the Toke & Talk, or Political, Or Music, Or Seed Review, Or Indoor, Or, Noob, Or Cooking...... Look around, Look Around


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Thanks for the youtube science brush up ... so what?


 
[youtube]K7luMp6lb9M[/youtube]


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

As usual... you can't connect ur thoughts....


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

[youtube]_hDPMJ5HJ3M[/youtube]


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

deflect away..... i'm patient.


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> deflect away..... i'm patient.


 *roflllllllllllllll, you are SO patient........you saw me say the WORD FAITH....and NEG REPPED ME.......AGAIN, VERY MATURE. *
*You can dish it out, but one word throws you in a frenzy....literally.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

pompous I might add


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

I didn't neg rep you ... but you go ahead and make a fool out of urself.... 


still waiting Braz.... what's the point of the science lesson? Just say it....I already know... but I want you to just say the reason.


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> deflect away..... i'm patient.


 *C*J.....do you really find the word FAITH not even directly thrown your way SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO threatening?*
*You sit there daily and dish out cynical downgrading of people daily and that ONE WORD just makes you CRINGE.*
*I gave you more credit than that in the beginning, but no more. *
*You are childish and manipulative.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I didn't neg rep you ... but you go ahead and make a fool out of urself....
> 
> 
> still waiting Braz.... what's the point of the science lesson? Just say it....I already know... but I want you to just say the reason.


 *You are fos too.......that neg rep LITERALLY came right after posting to me, pfft.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

*It's just the childishness of it all.......neg rep away.*


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## Dr. Greenhorn (Oct 20, 2009)

Hey Babs, CJ don't neg. rep


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

no shit man, whatever.....it's just childish


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## Dr. Greenhorn (Oct 20, 2009)

I truly believe CJ. he is not a neg. repper.....


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## PadawanBater (Oct 20, 2009)

Xeno420 said:


> Please! Stop with the religious threads already!!!! Holy ish! God is nothing more than the big bang and jesus is a retold story of an astrological story. Look into "The naked truth" as reference.


 
Who the hell is forcing you to click any links?! 

GTFO, religion is an interesting subject to A LOT of people. 

There is a very simple solution to your current problem my friend...


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Babs is easily fooled or a liar.... I don't neg rep. 

That would involve me being upset.... which never happens online.


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

Dr. Greenhorn said:


> I truly believe CJ. he is not a neg. repper.....


 One of them is lying.......no mistake about that.
Oddly, P comes on when it happens and then the instant I throw the word FAITH jokingly with CJ in a thread he and I both had been posting in AND he says I'm trolling.....pfft.
Someone enjoys lying.
Like I said, I don't play that immature crap.
Neg rep shouldn't even be allowed as far as I'm concerned.....just IMMATURE CHILDISH BS.
For the record, the neg rep came from a post I gave them both by name....nuff said.


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

......and when are you not online?


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## Dr. Greenhorn (Oct 20, 2009)

only elites can neg rep, and CJ is not the one who neg. repped you, must be a lurker


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Babs... you haven't figured out the rep system yet if you think I neg repped you......


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

Xeno420 said:


> Please! Stop with the religious threads already!!!! Holy ish! God is nothing more than the big bang and jesus is a retold story of an astrological story. Look into "The naked truth" as reference.


 
Xeno, I'm not trying to Rag you, I felt I should pass that on to You.., but this is the Spiritual, Philosophy, Sexuality part of the Forum... NObody is here to Argue Bro' but discuss their Spirituality, Philosophy, & Sexuallity.. Why would religious & Spiritual people Argue amongst themelves on and ON and ON....? Think about that question, and I'm sure you will understand the answer

That's who's argueing, correct, the Religious people..

Anyhow, I understand your message, you mean well in Context, But I'm trying to enjoy learning how to do the thang on here , and discuss topics of interest I like while I do.. I like politics, but don't care for it, So, I wish to discuss Spiritual/Philosophical aspects and insights with others... I don't know why all the Christians, Muslims, Buddhist, Rastafarian's, Hindus, Zen Masters decide to keep argueing amongst each Other in here.... I think it's the Scientologists kicking up all the Ruckus, Just breathe it In..., and Think about it....

Maybe, you are Right Tho'... I do need to start learning them REcipes as Well....


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

won't answer eh Braz? 

CHECKMATE!!! Thanks for stopping by!!


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

Yeah, Babs, CJ isn't the type to Neg Rep and Not say anything.., he's more of an Hit and Run the hell away Type....

Look..., NOw, he's playing Chess, when I've already broken the Board over the top of His Head, then proceeds to say I Cheated..., I already told him I was his God, I make the Fucking Rules 


mmmmmmmmkay


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Fail Braz.... major fail. I'm done with you now.


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

*At least be honest enough to admit you did it.....so childish.*
*And you call me a troll? Please.*
*I'm even giving P the benefit of the doubt that he is unable to do so, but you are able to....I figured that out in the past couple of days.*
*Don't act like your so above it either CJ......not after all of your posts.*
*You keep childshly resorting to calling me religous and I've taken it, but you can't take a single thing dished out your way.*
*Face FACTS.*
*You say whatever suits you......at the given moment.*


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

Thank You God 

[youtube]0G8XH4WDxP4[/youtube]


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Yeah, Babs, CJ isn't the type to Neg Rep and Not say anything.., he's more of an Hit and Run the hell away Type....
> 
> Look..., NOw, he's playing Chess, when I've already broken the Board over the top of His Head, then proceeds to say I Cheated..., I already told him I was his God, I make the Fucking Rules
> 
> ...


 *Well, someone sure as hell is lying through their teeth......lol, imagine that.*
*Look, the fact is P comes on suddenly and starts posting.......CJ calls me a troll because I had been posting on another thread that he had as well.*
*He said he had FAITH in the American people they would vote Obama out..*
*a few posts down I post "did I hear someone say they have faith?"*
*That was the topic here much earlier......a word I've never seen him use.*
*Too obvious it was one of the two of them....the neg rep came from my speaking to the two of them, calling them both by name.*
*Someone is lying...truth is you can take my name and put it back to stranger, whatever....that's not the point. That is just the EXTREME to childishness to neg rep someone........all it says is "nanabooboo, you disagreed with me.....how dare you not think like me?"*
*CHILDISH.*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Well, someone sure as hell is lying through their teeth......lol, imagine that.*
> *Look, the fact is P comes on suddenly and starts posting.......CJ calls me a troll because I had been posting on another thread that he had as well.*
> *He said he had FAITH in the American people they would vote Obama out..*
> *a few posts down I post "did I hear someone say they have faith?"*
> ...


you logic is razor sharp as usual...  it had to be someone!!!


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## DJBoxhouse (Oct 20, 2009)

Since we're talkin about rep, you know those green boxes to the left of them in your user control panel? I have one thats grayish blue, anyone know what that means? it has positive commentary to it so I dont think its neg. : <


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## Dr. Greenhorn (Oct 20, 2009)

I am almost positive it wasn't CJ. we had a discussion months back when I was still elite about this very topic of neg reps. I believe it's a lurker...

blue is neutrel rep, someone with under 25 posts.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Shhhh.... u'll crash their view of me which they have already cemented into place.


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Well, someone sure as hell is lying through their teeth......lol, imagine that.*
> *Look, the fact is P comes on suddenly and starts posting.......CJ calls me a troll because I had been posting on another thread that he had as well.*
> *He said he had FAITH in the American people they would vote Obama out..*
> *a few posts down I post "did I hear someone say they have faith?"*
> ...


the Twoo of Them..., you do know what happens when you pour water on a Gremlin don't you.. and Don't let them eat after Mid night....., ShhhhhhHHhhhhh, Just play Along, 

anyhow, it probably wasn't a Negative rep.. I think I need to apologize to the Person I thought Neg rep me..It was Gray, I think that signifies a new poster to the forum who haven't accumulated enough points for it to be green... I think they liked the Sippin the Haterade post.. Thanks Guy, are whoever, Just leave a Name so we can Thank You.. People are appreciative..  , So my Streak wasn't Over, until Stoney Neg (-) rep me for saying something in regards to Science when I was talking to Morgentaler.., It's a Big Red Square, so you will know the difference if so..

If it wasn't, they are probably repping you for catching him defiling his religious Faith..

I told you, He's a Hit & Run type of Guy.. You'll be outta breath trying to run him down...


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

Dr. Greenhorn said:


> I am almost positive it wasn't CJ. we had a discussion months back when I was still elite about this very topic of neg reps. I believe it's a lurker...
> 
> blue is neutrel rep, someone with under 25 posts.







*Atheism* 10-20-2009 06:59 PMThe only thing 'empty' is the space between your ears.


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## Dr. Greenhorn (Oct 20, 2009)

yup, its a lurker


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## DJBoxhouse (Oct 20, 2009)

thanks for answering!


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

10-20-2009, 06:57 PM 
Babs34 
Teaching How To Roll
*Mr. Ganja*




*Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: nunya
Posts: 1,209 


















































*​
permalink
Quote:
Originally Posted by *DJBoxhouse*  
_O-hi Babs, 
I'm giving out free digital hugs in case you didn't know. soooooo, you can *have* one. *Only* if you prrrrooommiiisee more *smiles* and no more of this arguing silly business. Okay?_

*Speak to your buddies P and CJ......I'm all smiles so long as I'm not being treated the way I have been here.*

*You guys are going to be so bored when none of us believers show up for you to bash.*

*But hey.....you can always RUDELY crash their "beliefs" sight.....as is evidently done daily.*

*Gets lonely having these empty beliefs....I get it.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

10-20-2009, 07:10 PM 
CrackerJax 
The Prize Is Inside
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I have faith that the American ppl will correct the error in 2010. 
__________________




...........out. 
______________________________________
You haven't countered nothing, because the points you made are not valid, you are basing your counter on information you don't understand, regardless the accuracy of the information, because it does not state what you are saying.. 

   
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10-20-2009, 07:25 PM 
redivider 
420 TIME
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obama will make this country great again, it's not gonna turn into the conservative, puritan, christian throb of the past, but it will be great. 
   
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10-20-2009, 07:36 PM 
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Obama is making the country into a second rate economic power.... if one bothers to actually read the real numbers and costs as opposed to reading USA today or other drivel news sources.

If you don't know it... it's because u aren't looking. 
__________________




...........out. 
______________________________________
You haven't countered nothing, because the points you made are not valid, you are basing your counter on information you don't understand, regardless the accuracy of the information, because it does not state what you are saying.. 
   
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*Did I just see that someone has........FAITH?* 
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*Life is as good as you and others around you allow it to be * 




    
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Not religious faith.... quit trolling. 
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10-20-2009, 08:09 PM 
​


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## Dr. Greenhorn (Oct 20, 2009)

what's all that mean?


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

Nope, that's a Negative.., don't worry about it, Too many Gremlins to tell which is Which apart.., and Plus getting (-) rep over something that is Stupid/Childish is just that.. It means Nothing, Only if you actually said something to deserve should you feel upset about it, and Upset about that you said it, NOt that somebody (-) rep you... I think you probably said Something Right if it was Childish, You know what I mean...


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Utterly lost in confusion Babs....


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Babs... you haven't figured out the rep system yet if you think I neg repped you......


 The point is who cares if it was you or if you even care to admit CJ?
You belittle people left and right without ever even addressing what's being spoken about.
Odd how you basically call me an airhead twice alone tonight....enough of your bs, I'm done.


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

DJBoxhouse said:


> thanks for answering!


 I was about to answer it when I just saw it at the bottom of my page.., everybodies typing away... Yeah, that's A Goodie Rep .. I was on that page and it skipped a whole page I think...


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

I didn't neg rep you... u were fooled... i'm not surprised by that however.


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Utterly lost in confusion Babs....


See, there you go again.
If I'm "so" lost, then ENLIGHTEN me..quit with the one-liner bs.
Who can neg rep? Who would EVEN CARE to neg-rep that statement but the two of you?
And if it's moderators on RIU that sit there and write childish things like that just because things I say don't conform to their beliefs, then really.....what the hell kind of fun could a person possibly have on a forum that only allows for those who DO conform to their beliefs?
God, this feels like kindergarten......my 11 year old doesn't even come home with stupid shit like this to tell me.


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> The point is who cares if it was you or if you even care to admit CJ?
> You belittle people left and right without ever even addressing what's being spoken about.
> Odd how you basically call me an airhead twice alone tonight....enough of your bs, I'm done.


Yeah, using that verbage and implied circumstances does sound Skittish..., but it can't be CJ, he doesn't believe in Conspiracy Theories, so it Must be another Elite who's been keeping Up with the Conversations b/t you Two.., but to suggest it was >>>>>>CJ,<<<<<<< is completely and Utterly Conspiracy Talk...


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I didn't neg rep you... u were fooled... i'm not surprised by that however.


 *Oh, you are definitely easily fooled.*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Like I said... so nooby.

Someday...someone will try and explain it to you... but not me. I know when i've met someone incapable of thinking objectively.


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

*Your ONLY argument with any "God AWFUL BELIEVER" is to speak down to them as if they could only dream of being anywhere near as intellectual as yourself.*
*Your not all that and a bag of chips babe.*
*Every time I proved it, you just went off calling more names....as you'll just continue to do.*


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## Dr. Greenhorn (Oct 20, 2009)

will the real neg. repper please stand up? LOL
[youtube]ihokwl7WOpo[/youtube]


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Maybe you should throw up some proof instead of feelings.... if religion were really true....you wouldn't be in such a twist about it.

The fact are that religion isn't based on anything provable......it's all one big guess, based on no evidence what so evah....

if I was going to neg someone.... you can bet ur boots I'd leave my calling card!!


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Yeah, using that verbage and implied circumstances does sound Skittish..., but it can't be CJ, he doesn't believe in Conspiracy Theories, so it Must be another Elite who's been keeping Up with the Conversations b/t you Two.., but to suggest it was >>>>>>CJ,<<<<<<< is completely and Utterly Conspiracy Talk...


 *Well Braz, when you say "elite"....I don't even know what to take of that....regardless of the "who".....it's stupid for any person to have the capability. And, if they do have that capability, they should certainly have to post who they are.*
*Either way.......I'm not tolerating the way CJ speaks to me any longer.*
*I've been entirely too respectful to him for far too long now.*
*I keep expecting him to actually take a second to see anything that is actually written to him, but he continues to do nothing more than throw out insults.*
*He's not responding to most of anything any single person says.....just negatively speaking DOWN to them.....while he accuses others of doing so.*


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Your ONLY argument with any "God AWFUL BELIEVER" is to speak down to them as if they could only dream of being anywhere near as intellectual as yourself.*
> *Your not all that and a bag of chips babe.*
> *Every time I proved it, you just went off calling more names....as you'll just continue to do.*


Wait, are you Saying CJ isn't the Intellectual I thought he WAs... College Tuition = 60,000 A scareCrow who wants a Brain = Priceless..

I'm just trying to push it to 100, and Nighty Night, is this the 1..


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Maybe you should throw up some proof instead of feelings.... if religion were really true....you wouldn't be in such a twist about it.
> 
> The fact are that religion isn't based on anything provable......it's all one big guess, based on no evidence what so evah....
> 
> if I was going to neg someone.... you can bet ur boots I'd leave my calling card!!


 A little REMINDER HERE for you CJ......the threads ARE the proof......
I came in ONLY to discuss why it is the conversation was about how it is you and "P" were feeling SO threatened by us scary Christians.......
YOUR DEFENSE.........THE STONE AGES.
YOU COULDN'T GET OFF OF IT......and you still can't to this day.
No matter HOW HARD I tried to stay on topic, you resorted back and forth to the christians of the stone ages or to to belittle overall my intelligence........and you are SADLY mistaken in mocking my intelligence.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Yes, take ur mental cues from babs.... you two deserve each other.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

Don't get mad because you can't prove religion.... no one can.... myths can't be proven.


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

*You and P just sit there and pump eachother up for the insults....you discuss nothing. I told you I would not be your raw slab of meat, and I MEANT it.*
*I get posts like "respect the force BITCH."*
*Online warriors.....gotta love them.*


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## Brazko (Oct 20, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Well Braz, when you say "elite"....I don't even know what to take of that....regardless of the "who".....it's stupid for any person to have the capability. And, if they do have that capability, they should certainly have to post who they are.*
> *Either way.......I'm not tolerating the way CJ speaks to me any longer.*
> *I've been entirely too respectful to him for far too long now.*
> *I keep expecting him to actually take a second to see anything that is actually written to him, but he continues to do nothing more than throw out insults.*
> *He's not responding to most of anything any single person says.....just negatively speaking DOWN to them.....while he accuses others of doing so.*


 
CJ is an Elite, Their Name is In Red, & they are able to change the Subtitles under their Name.. CJ just wanted bigger Boobs for His Avatar, thats why he went Elite, he has low self esteem  .. They also have other cool little perks, as well.., Me when I decide to go elite, it will be to keep the Site Up and Runnig..and Merely that is All, but the Beneits aren't that bad..., I'm just being overly safe for particular reasons right , Now 

anyway, 100 is my Q...


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Yes, take ur mental cues from babs.... you two deserve each other.


 .....take yours from P.......TWO PEAS IN A POD........Won't your momma be proud of ya?


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## Babs34 (Oct 20, 2009)

lol, you just said it......he's an elite......too much a coward to admit he gets angry.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 20, 2009)

I went elite to support the site... how bout u?


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## Babs34 (Oct 21, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I went elite to support the site... how bout u?


 *HAHAHAHA.......now you are not only better than me because you're not a stupid believer, but you're a badass because you are "elite." Keep going CJ.*


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I went elite to support the site... how bout u?


 


CrackerJax said:


> Yes, actually I think on of the trolls actually bought an elite membership just to neg rep ppl.
> 
> How sad is that?
> 
> Heck, I just wanted a bigger avatar...


 
Yeah, I just make it All Up, Somebody said something about Shooting Fish in a Barrell.... 

You do know this is the World Wide Internet People,.. Don't YOu ..

Just saying..


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

Excuse Me.. Cracker Barrell.. you People are FOS


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Excuse Me.. Cracker Barrell.. you People are FOS


And the Jerry Springer Show has yet to Start... This is More Like a Sit Down With Oprah..

I haven't Forgot..


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## Babs34 (Oct 21, 2009)

*Furthermore, let me make something clear.......I don't give a damn if a whole army of atheists come and neg rep me. I am just blown away at how childish the whole thing is.......how utterly MEAN a person you and others engaging in these threads are.*
*Your ENTIRE argument has been downplaying my believing in something good, when I have never even attempted to push Christ or any religion on any one. I'm not here to sell any soul on God. I just wanted to know WHY it is you, P and others have such a strong disdain for them as a whole. AND why it is you don't see what TRULY is a threat to you in society.*
*If it wasn't childish name calling as a defense, it was science.*
*But according to all of that silly logic used by you both, science isn't responsible for finding cures for diseases, cancer and illness......particularly when it was pertaining to MY health.*
*Don't you dare attempt to talk about what GOOD people you are as atheists!!! Your entire "debate" was a LIE.....an ugly lie FROM THE DEPTHS OF HELL.*
*To keep throwing out that word "logic" and be so callous........despicable.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 21, 2009)

*LOL, damn Braz, I just realized why you keep going down on the todem pole too........you dare to have an opinion!!!*
*God love you!!!*


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## FlynLow (Oct 21, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Furthermore, let me make something clear.......I don't give a damn if a whole army of atheists come and neg rep me. I am just blown away at how childish the whole thing is.......how utterly MEAN a person you and others engaging in these threads are.*
> *Your ENTIRE argument has been downplaying my believing in something good, when I have never even attempted to push Christ or any religion on any one. I'm not here to sell any soul on God. I just wanted to know WHY it is you, P and others have such a strong disdain for them as a whole. AND why it is you don't see what TRULY is a threat to you in society.*
> *If it wasn't childish name calling as a defense, it was science.*
> *But according to all of that silly logic used by you both, science isn't responsible for finding cures for diseases, cancer and illness......particularly when it was pertaining to MY health.*
> ...


Babs! you are wonderful. Very wise words. I completely agree. Its funney how childish atheists as a whole can be... this thread is perfect example of my disdain for atheists & my sympathy towards them. God please come in to these pour souls & fill them with positive thoughts & allow both non believers & believers exist peacefully. Why dont we all state our thoughts in a nice way instead of trying to one up eachother all the time.....just saying

<3 You all regardless but atleast think twice before posting harmful words


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## Babs34 (Oct 21, 2009)

*Flyn, you're awesome. You're right. I came into this thread solely to see if I had become the topic "as to how stupid I am of course"....and low and behold, there I was being made the topic. If that's what it takes to make themselves feel good about themselves, so be it.*

God please come in to these pour souls & fill them with positive thoughts & allow both non believers & believers exist peacefully.

*I'll reply by saying sincerely, "Amen."*
*I never meant a soul any harm in ever engaging (or trying to any way) in what I thought could possibly be remotely peaceful, but you are absolutely right.*
*Posting nasty remarks back and forth all night is for those who like to argue.....and I loathe arguing.*


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

You know, I'm Sorry Too....., CJ, NOitall, Stoney, Morgentaler, Paddy, & anybody I missed that felt like I my have Offended them.., Making somebody angry doesn't feel Good, and it doesn't make you feel Good afterwards when pouring that Anger back out on them... Like I said , I was sympathetic and had empathy, and wished to only discuss what their apsects on life Was as I or anybody discussed Theres, It doesn't have to be about religious aspects, just sharing knowledge that's all.... Jus like Box said, you only hurt Yourself when you try to Hurt others..., I know this to be All to true.., That is Why I never wish to Hurt anybody, you just feel bad afterwards... Like I said, I need to learn from my elders and Just ignore conversation with them or anybody that only wants to insult and argue, if reasonable discussion cannot be Made... I apologize to them all, and to all who had to sit through and listen.., Like I said, I'm my biggest Critic, you can't even begin to Judge me with an Ounce of Criticism that I haven't already Judged myself 10 fold ON...



and I ain't forgot.....


Just joking, I'll let it fade into my memory..


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## morgentaler (Oct 21, 2009)

Babs,
If you really want to know who left you the rep get an Elite account.
The feature list for elites says you can see who leaves the rep.

I posted in another thread that that feature should be on by default rather than a perk. But it's just rep anyway... does it even affect anything other than the size of people's e-penises?


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## PadawanBater (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm in complete agreement, but you guys are the ones who started the personal attacks. Also, when you misunderstand someones post and take offense when that wasn't the intention, that cannot be blamed on someone else, point in case, that post I said "respect the force, BITCH!" - I thought you would have gotten that. I was not calling you a bitch Babs. I was alluding to my handle, PadawanBater - I thought you would understand that was a refrence to "the force" in Star Wars. Padawan... Star Wars... anyway, that's just the way I talk in real life. Nothing I've said was meant to be offensive. 

So fine, we all agree, personal attacks don't lead anywhere. Moving on.

Also, I was saying you cannot blame the whole of science for your personal misfortune. Just because they have not discovered a cure for whatever you are suffering from does not give you the right to conclude that science is inefficient or wrong. That is all I was saying. 

Did you find anything offensive about this post?


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

Paddy, it can be that Way if you like.,, but when you classify somebody as Religious, then proceed to address Religious people within your attack, Yes, you are persnoally attacking someone.. You have personally put them in a Group and have addressed them within your attack of that Group..., That is Why I say you Address the Person, Individual... Groups are only sentenced together when nobody omits to who the unknown Culprit was, and they acted Together.. Nobody here has acted in cohersion with any religious crusade or attempt in indoctrinating anybody.... Personal attacks don't get anywhere and it was never thought to lead anywhere.. However, I think, discussion with some people regardless will lead to no where, because you first have to be open to understanding and not insistent on implying what their belief or philosophy is... It's cool, Like I said, Most of your discussions were always reasonable and Logical, but trying to arrange people words to fit your meaning and not trying to understand their meaning will never Work.. That is not what being Open is about... Like I said it's cool.., but I'm exhausted, to repeat everything I said would seem pointless right now, because it still remains the Same as to what I have said,, If it couldn't be understood then, It's not goint to be instantly and magically understood now.. I don't mind discussion with you or anybody.. but I'm exhausted in trying to discuss my beliefs in this fashion, I think I like Box's Thread on the philosophy of life and may chime in on that plus a few other Positve motivated thinking threads.. that's all I can probably handle right now...


and no, there was nothing offensive about that post, opinionated maybe, but just as mine was...


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## CrackerJax (Oct 21, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *HAHAHAHA.......now you are not only better than me because you're not a stupid believer, but you're a badass because you are "elite." Keep going CJ.*



You don't have a wit of reading comprehension do you?

Look here nimrod... I can prove to you QUITE EASILY that is was not me who neg repped you.

Would you like me to prove it to you.....??

How bout you Brazko.... want me to prove it to you as well?

Just say the word, but make it in the next 12 hours..... (hint)


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## morgentaler (Oct 21, 2009)

Oooh, I figured it out what you meant. If I guess it before they do I get a hero cookie? Preferably one baked with green


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## CrackerJax (Oct 21, 2009)

Heh.... an atheist using a bit of logic..... I'm shocked!!


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## robert 14617 (Oct 21, 2009)

is this an open thread for discussion or take your chance at getting flamed if you give input?


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## CrackerJax (Oct 21, 2009)

Only one side flames on this thread. It depends on ur opinion...


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Would you like me to prove it to you.....??
> 
> How bout you Brazko.... want me to prove it to you as well?
> 
> Just say the word, but make it in the next 12 hours..... (hint)


Cracker, you must haven't read none of my statements, because I have repeatedly said that you didn't (-) rep anybody, and that you would leave you CArd, if you did... I said you Hit and Run,, not Sneak a Person... 

I don't care ... You don't have to Prove nothing to me.. What happens in 12 hours... you lost a Glass Slipper or, Something....

Like I said, you only see what you want to See..


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## robert 14617 (Oct 21, 2009)

from what i've read there is nothing to see, as far as evidence goes


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

robert 14617 said:


> is this an open thread for discussion or take your chance at getting flamed if you give input?


I think it's safe to give input..., I just think some people don't get it, that you can't classify somebody as religious, then proceed to call a religious person a rapist, murderer, child molestor, etc.. Etc.. without intent to seperate the thought in meaning that People have done these things falsely, regardless of their title..., but this is what you support because you are Religious, When, I believe the very people who have been called religious have stated more than 100 times that they despise what religion is..., but No, if you believe in God, and have a Belief at all (b/c Atheist don't Believe in nothing), your Religious, so it applies to You... That is Personal and it IS False, I'm the Biggest Teddy Bear and best Friend a person could have, sometimes too ignorantly Kind to default, But I don't bite back when being attack repeatedly on false Accusuations, and honesty is lacking in their View..
I prefer to SwALLOW..., 

I get along with everybody on Here, we are all Human, is the Way I see it... But some people are just blind to the fact because they choose too, and NO, not believe in God, Blind to the Fact that everybody has the right to an opinion and belief..., And they shouldn't be Attacked repeatedly and FAlsely because They Do....

Just Look, everybody was about Peace & Love, I didn't blame anybody, but accepted My part for what it was worth, gave Apologies/all., but still....

Some people are just too full of Pride to Humble themselves to be Reasonable..., 

You can discuss anything on here you Like, I've decided to not even respond to the illogical comments anymore, for as long as I can anyway..., Although I can't say somebody else might.. I only speak for myself.., But I'm sure you are not purposing such commentary anyway...

 Bro'


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

robert 14617 said:


> from what i've read there is nothing to see, as far as evidence goes


, I don't think Provable evidence would ever be substantiated in the Form of what we as Modern day People are looking for, It hasn't been proven in Over some Ump something Thousands of Years..., by the wisest Men/Women on this Planet.., I think it was more of a Suggestion in Point to allow discussion..., Proof has never been successful in one Way or another.., It's just people putting forth their REasons for Believing in what they Believe... 

That's your opinion in What you have recognized within the context of your REading, and that is Your Belief.., That is How the Conversation Goes..


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## robert 14617 (Oct 21, 2009)

this is a touchy subject , i don't want to call my self religious , nor atheist . there are forces at work, in the sub atomic world scientists can't explain, they are beyond reason,hell it may be a higher power


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes, it Maybe, I think it maybe a Higher Being., But nothing that is Separate from the Totality of What we already are.. Sort of like evey Cell of Your body makes up your Total Body, The cell independently is lesser to the Higher being of The Total Self.. That is How I view Myself within this Universe.. My part is Here on Earth, The existence of My Being is right Here.. This is My part.. I don't have to Worship anything.., but Just Do my part Right Here.., In the Now, Because the Now is my Purpose.., Just like every cell of the Body has their Function and Role... Working independently, for the whole of the Body.., That is in the Direction of My Belief...

and I could be Wrong, but that is What I interpet and understand..


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## morgentaler (Oct 21, 2009)

Does flaming "God" count as flaming? 
So far I've called the biblical god several accurate names, implied by the book itself.
Petty, vindictive, genocidal, advocator of slavery and rape, narcissistic, sociopathic, insecure, and all around irrational (If Sushi is an abomination, do you got to hell for eternity just so it cooks?)

And it's pretty easy to figure out what CJ's time limit is for. He only has the capability to neg rep X times a day. Probably once.

Where's my cookie?


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## Green Cross (Oct 21, 2009)

How do the great unwashed God haters, explain how America became the greatest, freest, and most powerful country on earth - in only a couple hundred years - while other godless nations are left licking the dirt off America's proverbial boot? 

Luck? 

This Nation was founded by God fearing men, and the rule of law, based on God's word, so of course we have all been blessed, and the proof is here for the whole world to see. 

And now a history lesson for the brainwashed kool aid drinkers"

America's Godly Heritage

Active humanists and the liberal media have for years undertaken a concentrated effort to misinform the American public by attacking the "Religious Right" and rewriting America's Judeo-Christian history in a humanistic tone. The motto at the heart of the American experiment "*in God we trust*" has been exchanged for "*in Man we trust*." 


*Rewriting History*
The last three generations of Americans simply have not been told the truth about American history as its Christian heritage has been disparaged. 

For example, ask most Americans if the "separation of church and state" is in our Constitution, and they will answer yes. You can scour the Constitution of the United States, and you will NOT find the phrase, "separation of church and state" or anything close to it. 

In the Constitution of the Soviet Union, however, the doctrine of the separation of Church and State is found: [SIZE=+0]_"In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the State, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens" _[/SIZE](Article 124). Article Twelve of the 1918 Soviet Constitution decrees that no church or religious organization [SIZE=+0]_"shall enjoy the rights of judicial person."_[/SIZE] Instruction of children under age 18 in religious matters, whether in public or private, is against the law. 

The concept of separation of church and state might be implied by the First Amendment which states that _"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...."_ It says nothing about the "separation of church and state." And, even if you accept the principle of the separation of church and state being implied by the First Amendment, it's implication is not there to protect Americans from religion, it is there to protect religious Americans from the government.

In their desire to promote their secular humanist philosophy using the power of government, many liberals today want to alter America's Christian heritage, remove religion from its history, and replace it with the Soviet doctrine of the separation of Church and State. Their desire is not to safeguard denominational neutrality by the state as the Founders intended, it is to eradicate every vestige of religion from our public institutions.


*The Educational Establishment*
One reason we have lost so many of our religious freedoms is that the liberal educational establishment has worked hard to eliminate our knowledge of the Judeo-Christian heritage of America. The facts nonetheless reveal the true convictions of our founders. Without question, they believed that although no one Christian denomination should dominate the nation, the principles of the Bible and Christianity should underlie our government and American education as well. 
_"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry 

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice, John Jay_
"The liberties we talk about defending today were established by men who took their conceptions of man from the great central religious tradition of Western civilization [Christianity], and the liberties we inherit can almost certainly not survive the abandonment of that tradition. The decay of decency in the modern age, the rebellion against law and good faith, the treatment of human beings as things, as mere instruments of power and ambition, is without a doubt the consequence of the decay of the belief in man as someone more than an animal animated by highly conditioned reflexes and chemical reactions. For unless man is something more than that, he has no rights that anyone is bound to respect, and there are no limitations upon his conduct which he is bound to obey. This is the forgotten foundation of democracy." [SIZE=-1][James Reston, "Faith of Our Fathers, Living Still?" _The New York Times_, April 2, 1969][/SIZE]

Our children's history books are being rewritten so they no longer hear the truth about the tremendous influence of religious faith on America's founding fathers, on the great documents they drafted to establish a true republic based, on the critical tripod of liberty, life, and family. The revisionist history being taught now is devoid of any reference to the Christian faith of our Founding Fathers as the old stories, the old way that American history was taught, was revised to reflect a more liberal, politically correct, homogenized and multicultural perspective. 

Words like duty and honor and country have fallen out of vogue, and the stories of the Christian faith of men like George Washington and Patrick Henry and Noah Webster and so many others, Daniel Webster, Andy Jackson, Chief Justice John Marshall - magnificent Christians - these stories are simply left out. 

While many may squabble over who among the founding fathers was a Christian, no knowledgeable historian of early American history can deny the fact that the concept of a Creator God who endowed His creation with "unalienable rights" was an essential underpinning of the American experiment. Indeed, the Declaration of Independence states, *"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."* These rights were derived not from a government that was transitory, but from a Governor who was eternal. It was the role of government to defend these rights and not dilute or remove them. 

The revisionists extend their influence outside the classroom as well into nearly every segment of American life. Descriptions and tours of the nation's capitol fail to point out that the Ten Commandments are inscribed in the marble of the United States Supreme Court, that there is a beautiful stained glass window in the U.S. Capitol depicting President George Washington kneeling in prayer, and that at the top of the Washington Monument - the highest point in the nation's capital is embedded a plaque which boldly proclaims in Latin, *"Praise Be Unto God."* 


*Arbitrary Law*
In the 1892 Supreme Court ruling in _Church of the Holy Trinity vs. U.S._ (citing 87 precedents), "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of Mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian." Throughout history, the U.S. Supreme Court continually cited previous cases in order to maintain our Christian Constitution. However, in 1962, for the first time in American history, the court cited no previous cases and ruled in _Engel vs. Vitale_ that; because of Separation of Church and State, the government needed to be separated from Christian principles. So, the simple school prayer, "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon thee and we beg thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers, and our country" became unconstitutional and the eradication of Christianity from public institutions began. 
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. [Isaiah 5:20]
The Supreme Court, the President, or Congress do not shoulder the entire blame for these profound changes in the American cultural fabric. Far from it. Indeed, past generations of Christians and other religionists who were not involved in society or who sat silently by as the culture embraced the secular worldview are also greatly responsible. 


*Restoring America*
The future of America will either be a national revival or it's total destruction. We're on the edge now of real national self-destruction. The past few generations of Americans have witnessed the collapse of moral and ethical values unlike any time in our history. We're looking at the very strong probability of economic collapse, unless there is a tremendous change. We're going to spend ourselves, tax ourselves into total oblivion. 
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [2 Chronicles 7:14]
The essence of what God is requiring of the Christians in America is repentance. If we Christians think that simply by political involvement we're going to turn the country around, we're crazy. If we think that we can adopt an antagonistic triumphalism that says we're going to get organized and throw all the bad guys out and take over, we will be brought face to face with our own sinfulness. 

We must recover the original American vision and we must put into practice 2 Chronicles 7:14. Our First Continental Congress understood this concept as is evident in the words of John Jay.

What we need is a Christian nation - compared to the pagan nation we're becoming. By "Christian nation," I don't mean that everyone is forced to be a Christian or forced to go to church or to believe in God. People are free to be Buddhists, atheists, or whatever. The job of government is not to convert or force conversion to any kind of faith. The job of the government is to do for the people what they can't do for themselves. And the job of bringing people to faith belongs to the private citizens, the churches, the synagogues and the religious leaders of our nation. That separation should always be kept. What I mean by a Christian nation is a nation whose laws are self-consciously built on the laws and principles of the Bible. 

We have allowed organizations like the ACLU to strip away every vestige of our Christian heritage for long enough. We are tired of them destroying our country by declaring God unconstitutional. Our nation was founded on the principles laid out by the God of the Bible and we're saying ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Where there is no foundation, there are no laws and what results is anarchy brought forth by moral relativism. Their way has failed. The time has come for us to take back that which once was and let the healing begin. 

_"Let us look forward to the time when we can take the flag of our country and nail it below the Cross, and there let it wave as it waved in the olden times, and let us gather around it an inscribed for our motto: "Liberty and Union, one and inseparable, now and forever," and exclaim, Christ first, our country next!" -- Andrew Johnson_


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## CrackerJax (Oct 21, 2009)

The girl is extra.....


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## robert 14617 (Oct 21, 2009)

i don't mind the great reference but i am not unwashed i showered this morning , would have liked to have showered with the cookie girland how do i hate god by asking for proof


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## CrackerJax (Oct 21, 2009)

Ur not supposed to question the ... BOOK. The book is true....the book says so.


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## robert 14617 (Oct 21, 2009)

children of the corn


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## CrackerJax (Oct 21, 2009)

It's nothing short of a cult....


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## robert 14617 (Oct 21, 2009)

blindly following without questioning


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

Green Cross said:


> How do the great unwashed God haters, explain how America became the greatest, freest, and most powerful country on earth - in only a couple hundred years - while other godless nations are left licking the dirt off America's proverbial boot?
> 
> Luck?
> 
> ...


Knowledge...++++REp



CrackerJax said:


> The girl is extra.....


 
Cookies.....++++Rep


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

Wasn't able to Rep you Again GC.. but, It's been A while Since I've Rep CJ


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## morgentaler (Oct 21, 2009)

Green Cross said:


> How do the great unwashed God haters, explain how America became the greatest, freest, and most powerful country on earth - in only a couple hundred years - while other godless nations are left licking the dirt off America's proverbial boot?
> 
> Luck?
> 
> ...


Yes, so God fearing they intentionally wrote in the separation of church and state in order to protect the citizens from the tyranny of theocracy.

And the reason that the US (and Canada) are so successful is the availability of resources vs. population, not from the worship of an invisible man in the sky. The books and documentary "Guns, Germs, and Steel" does a nice job of explaining why temperate open geography is perfect for booms in agriculture and technology.

Any newly settled country with vast resources engages in a population and production boom. And compared to the civilizations and geography of the rest of the world, North America was a virgin land of easily accessed riches.

Or it could have been Jesus handing out loaves and fishes... it's all kind of foggy on that part.


Interesting source you used: http://www.jeremiahproject.com/culture/heritage.html
Isn't this the bunch of Dominionist whackos associated with Sarah Palin and that priest from Africa who hunts witches? (That's not a racist thing, she really associates with a guy who hunts down and persecutes people in Africa by declaring them witches)

Wow, that site is just rife with paranoid whackery, and the literal interpretation of biblical law being applied to government. Scary, scary shit.

My favorite thing about people who believe that we should have law based on the bible is that they only want the laws they agree with, and would be horrified if someone ELSE'S interpretation of the laws were implemented.

When's the last time you ate shellfish, Green Cross? We'll be obligated to stone you to death if you've had any, obviously.


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_America

I Thought this Link was Pretty Relative in thought to the Arguement of Both Parties... You be the Judge....


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## PadawanBater (Oct 21, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Yes, so God fearing they intentionally wrote in the separation of church and state in order to protect the citizens from the tyranny of theocracy.
> 
> And the reason that the US (and Canada) are so successful is the availability of resources vs. population, not from the worship of an invisible man in the sky.
> 
> ...


Rep worthy post, unfortunately I've exhausted the button for you... 


Braz, did you agree with GC's post, that this is a "Christian Nation" founded on "Christian Principles"?


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> Rep worthy post, unfortunately I've exhausted the button for you...
> 
> 
> Braz, did you agree with GC's post, that this is a "Christian Nation" founded on "Christian Principles"?


Yes, I Do, The Quakers and all, You know Great Britain, Independence Day.. Here's a Link For You....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Day_(United_States)


What do you think this Nation is? 85%

Do I think this country was Found to abide by Christian Principles only? answer: NO 

Is that what you are asking? 

Are you trying to Re-Arrange Words? or 

Is it you simply did not understand me Repping GC for that Post? 

Was it an False Forged Document? if it Was, which part.? I do not agree with Forgery or False Statements.!!!


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

For the Most part, I disagree with GC on about everything.. Go ahead >>>> ASk HIM


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

Please, answer my questions, I'm Serious


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## PadawanBater (Oct 21, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Yes, I Do, The Quakers and all, You know Great Britain, Independence Day.. Here's a Link For You....
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Day_(United_States)
> 
> ...


True, America is 85% Christian, but I don't follow how that makes it a "Christian Nation". Wouldn't the federal government officially have to declare Christianity the official religion of the United States for us to be considered a "Christian Nation"?

We are as much a Christian Nation as we are a Muslim Nation as we are an Atheist Nation... we just happen to have more Christians than anything else. If one day more Muslims populated the country, would it become a "Muslim Nation"?

Yes, I was asking if you thought the country was founded on only Christian principles, like GC seems to think. 
One other thing, I always find it odd that people attribute the fact that how our laws of society today state not to murder or steal or else you'll go to prison or face other consequences, to Christianity... as if Christianity never existed, we wouldn't have these laws... That, in my opinion, is completely wrong.


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> True, America is 85% Christian, but I don't follow how that makes it a "Christian Nation". Wouldn't the federal government officially have to declare Christianity the official religion of the United States for us to be considered a "Christian Nation"?
> 
> We are as much a Christian Nation as we are a Muslim Nation as we are an Atheist Nation... we just happen to have more Christians than anything else. If one day more Muslims populated the country, would it become a "Muslim Nation"?
> 
> ...


 
To say it is Not a Christian Nation, does not imply that it is a Nation for Christians.. It's just simply a Christian Populated Nation..

To understand my meaning.. We are a Water BAsed Being.., 65% Water.. It doesn't mean we don't contain other GAses, & metals.. We would not be able to live without these other elements... But we are Still 65% WAter.. A Water Based Being

and Yes, we would civilize eventually under some moral code.., but of the times we were Barbarians doing what Animals Did and Lived Like animals.. Christanity was one of the first forms that reached out broadly across all bridges to bring about a sense of Morality to all things and People.. Now, to say Christanity itself is without Barbaric rituals of the past would make me a Liar (even today, but not Primarily or minority, more so. remotely).., but it's the totality of consciousness that a majority of people can reflect on with a sense of morality, and even if not Perfect...., Christ was a Perfect FairyTale if you would like to call it that.. But Christanity the Organized religion is Far from perfect.., because it is not the FairyTale Christ.., It is the Animal Barbaric Man...


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## morgentaler (Oct 21, 2009)

Actually the Roman political and judicial system had a much larger hand in that. Christianity wasn't adopted until a couple of hundred years later.


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## PadawanBater (Oct 21, 2009)

Brazko said:


> To say it is Not a Christian Nation, does not imply that it is a Nation for Christians.. It's just simply a Christian Populated Nation..
> 
> To understand my meaning.. We are a Water BAsed Being.., 65% Water.. It doesn't mean we don't contain other GAses, & metals.. We would not be able to live without these other elements... But we are Still 65% WAter.. A Water Based Being
> 
> and Yes, we would civilize eventually under some moral code.., *but of the times we were Barbarians doing what Animals Did and Lived Like animals.. Christanity was one of the first forms that reached out broadly across all bridges to bring about a sense of Morality to all things and People..* Now, to say Christanity itself is without Barbaric rituals of the past would make me a Liar (even today, but not Primarily or minority, more so. remotely).., but it's the totality of consciousness that a majority of people can reflect on with a sense of morality, and even if not Perfect...., Christ was a Perfect FairyTale if you would like to call it that.. But Christanity the Organized religion is Far from perfect.., because it is not the FairyTale Christ.., It is the Animal Barbaric Man...


 
I get your analogy completely, and agree. The thing is, that stupid shit that GC posted is the same kind of thing I see all the time coming from believers... Did you see how he made the claim that *we're the top nation economically (for now) and militarily BECAUSE of Christianity. *That was the claim. I was just wondering why he thought we were a Christian Nation, and clearing up for him that even if we were a Christian Nation, that doesn't mean a thing about our success. How many other nations hold a majority Christian population? 

The logic fails right there.

Also, for the bit in bold, I couldn't disagree more. We were "moral" before we were ever even humans. Similar to how animals exhibit "morality" towards their own kind, so did our early anscestors. "Morality" is instinctual, not learned.


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## Green Cross (Oct 21, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Knowledge...++++REp
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rep+ with cookies! lol


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## CrackerJax (Oct 21, 2009)

repped... then thrown under the bus... ??


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> I get your analogy completely, and agree. The thing is, that stupid shit that GC posted is the same kind of thing I see all the time coming from believers... Did you see how he made the claim that *we're the top nation economically (for now) and militarily BECAUSE of Christianity. *That was the claim. I was just wondering why he thought we were a Christian Nation, and clearing up for him that even if we were a Christian Nation, that doesn't mean a thing about our success. How many other nations hold a majority Christian population?
> 
> The logic fails right there.
> 
> Also, for the bit in bold, I couldn't disagree more. We were "moral" before we were ever even humans. Similar to how animals exhibit "morality" towards their own kind, so did our early anscestors. "Morality" is instinctual, not learned.


Yeah, and I think Morgen tried to allude to the notion as Well.. But listen to what I'm saying.. Christ, What Christanity is supposedly to be based off of, was to accept all people for whatever and whomever they were and Choose to be.. Roman Law did not Accept Such Liberty.. It Was Caesars Law or else..and Even before Caesars Law, Remote Clans inflicted their Justice of Law upon the Next clan that did not adhere to their People or Customs.. Christanity (although abused/manipulated) was the first to reach out abroad to acceptance of all Cultures and way of Life.... and this brings me to the Other point as I was saying.. Before Organized Christian REligion bore the forefront of dictating morality.. Man dictated upon himself what morality should be.. It is no different Today... 

Like I said Christanity is Not Perfect , the Fairy Tale Motto it is suppose to adhere is.. That FAiry tale is What the Evolved man know is Truth... Now it could have easily been another code, or another myth.. but as Man evolved this code of Morality is known to be True...

We do not need Religion, However, we do not need to attack Religion.., We need to Attack the Barbarians..., REligions have misguided people who try to Guide.., but it's easier to change the ways of the Puppet, then it is to change the motives of the Puppeteer...

The Puppeteer must simply be Removed..Exterminated...Killuminati


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> repped... then thrown under the bus... ??


 
??????????????? 

What are we down to 8hrs now?





Honesty, threw you under a Bus.., Honesty pulled you from under the Bus.., 

If I have to be Honest with myself, I would choose not to be thrown under a Bus?

Lose the Pride.., 

I pride Myself on that I know nothing.., If I know nothing.., Then I can always learn from Everything..., and if I can learn From all things., Then I can Know Everything...


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## CrackerJax (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm referring to your rep of GC and then saying dissing his post later on....


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I'm referring to your rep of GC and then saying dissing his post later on....


Oh, well Honestly, if you look back and See.., I did Rep his Post = True, however I didn't Diss his Post = False...,

I still believe that post to be Honest and True in my interpretation of it.... Unless, there was something I overlooked that you interpret as being Wrong? I might have to look again... But

I said I have disagreed with GC on almost everything..meaning that, I'm not just agreeing with somebody that is suppose to be on My side...

I believe Paddy didn't agree with his Post entirely... and his intended motives behind them...


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## CrackerJax (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes, my bad.... it was paddy.... now it makes more sense. so many quotes flying around....I apologize.


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

But never mind what I said in that other post..., I think I was just talking jibberish.., 

I'm Hungry





Apology Given as Well AS Accepted, Too


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## PadawanBater (Oct 21, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Yeah, and I think Morgen tried to allude to the notion as Well.. But listen to what I'm saying.. Christ, What Christanity is supposedly to be based off of, was to accept all people for whatever and whomever they were and Choose to be.. Roman Law did not Accept Such Liberty.. It Was Caesars Law or else..and Even before Caesars Law, Remote Clans inflicted their Justice of Law upon the Next clan that did not adhere to their People or Customs.. Christanity (although abused/manipulated) was the first to reach out abroad to acceptance of all Cultures and way of Life.... and this brings me to the Other point as I was saying.. Before Organized Christian REligion bore the forefront of dictating morality.. Man dictated upon himself what morality should be.. It is no different Today...
> 
> Like I said Christanity is Not Perfect , the Fairy Tale Motto it is suppose to adhere is.. That FAiry tale is What the Evolved man know is Truth... Now it could have easily been another code, or another myth.. but as Man evolved this code of Morality is known to be True...
> 
> ...


 
I think the message is the root of the problem. What's wrong with espousing goodness and kindness without having to believe some ancient character that might have existed died in the past? 

There is no need for it. The message doesn't offer anything to us in todays world. I believe we can and should get along without it. 

What do we get from any religious text that we can't get elsewhere?


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## CrackerJax (Oct 21, 2009)

There isn't a single original thought in the Bible.....


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## FlynLow (Oct 21, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> There isn't a single original thought in the Bible.....




I highly doubt you have read the entire Bible, cracker
stop trying to cook up another e-fight...this definitely isint the first time ive pointed this out.... Dont people read thread titles anymore?


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## morgentaler (Oct 21, 2009)

Wasn't Christianities message to those other cultures it was accepting "Assimilate or burn in hellfire?"

Christian tolerance of other cultures only extended so far as those that could be used to increase their numbers.

If you don't follow "the God" you will burn with the unbelievers. This is always the underlying message no matter how much they want to sugar coat it with 'Jesus loves you'.


There's nothing special or unique about it.





PadawanBater said:


> I think the message is the root of the problem. What's wrong with espousing goodness and kindness without having to believe some ancient character that might have existed died in the past?
> 
> There is no need for it. The message doesn't offer anything to us in todays world. I believe we can and should get along without it.
> 
> What do we get from any religious text that we can't get elsewhere?


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## CrackerJax (Oct 21, 2009)

FlynLow said:


> I highly doubt you have read the entire Bible, cracker
> stop trying to cook up another e-fight...this definitely isint the first time ive pointed this out.... Dont people read thread titles anymore?


Perhaps you should read my posts first... I have stated already that indeed I have read the Bible... I have studied Theology at the University level. I was raised catholic and confirmation and all that. Been there, done that......

Maybe you should start reading what's inside the threads..... instead of the titles....


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## PadawanBater (Oct 21, 2009)

FlynLow said:


> I highly doubt you have read the entire Bible, cracker
> stop trying to cook up another e-fight...this definitely isint the first time ive pointed this out.... Dont people read thread titles anymore?


Judaism>Christianity>Islam

...

Before that there were countless other ancient beliefs/Gods people worshipped. Today there are thousands of gods people worship all over the world.

I believe most of them are essentially the same story told with different characters and settings...


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## FlynLow (Oct 21, 2009)

My apologies cj but to say there is no original thought in the bible is saying that u have analyzed the entire bible looking for original thoughts.....which we both know u didnt


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> I think the message is the root of the problem. What's wrong with espousing goodness and kindness without having to believe some ancient character that might have existed died in the past?
> 
> There is no need for it. The message doesn't offer anything to us in todays world. I believe we can and should get along without it.
> 
> What do we get from any religious text that we can't get elsewhere?


Well, I don't think using a story for a Message is Wrong.., Everything we are today are from passed along Stories... Yes, but it must come a time that we move away from using stories to people simply reflecting on the Moral conduct of people.. NO matter until then.. Something will be written down in text form to convey Morality of how a Human should live, until there is no need to Teach and We simply Do..


and I think you understand what I said, but I'm going to repeat this again..

Christaintiy the REality Based Movement is of Barbaric men.. The Message of Christ was to accept all People. All People.. All People... as the Story goes, he didn't hang out in the temples.., he hung out in the clubs, street corners, with thugs, prositutes.., non-believers speaking with Them and getting tipsy.., He was about accepting all people as the Fairy tAle story Goes.. this is the way Man should Act.. All Men..

However, Christanity, is made up of men, and Regardless of Men with or without religion, intolerances are made from and by men... 

Christanity as it should be practiced in theory is acceptance of All Men..
I know you understood the first time I said it.. I just felt the need to repeat it again..

And Paddy, if you want to discuss it further, we can, I think you understand me.., I understand your point... we can only go around and around in circles, but we are essentially wishing and wanting for the same thing in Human Beings.., I just don't feel as putting emphasize on religion as a problem is the problem.. and it only encourages the ones who are not strong enough to see past the manipulation to bond closer to those given beliefs.. Everybody is not under some manipulative spell.. Maybe growing up, yeah, we can believe anything we are told, but the mind matures and people understand.. They understand what the Truth is and don't abide by the principles of the Wicked, but they will still not refute the Truth that is in their Heart.. The message of Christ is not a Lie.. REal or Fake.. it's the Truth.. 

It doesn't take a Story for Good Morals, but our Morals came from Stories made to Explain Good Morals... to get rid of them would be great, if we just lived that way.., but we don't just live that way, and so, we don't just need to get rid of them just for the sake of saying we don't need'em... We obviously need something..., If not Religious context of morals..? Then what? Will you trust that the next person is passing on the Correct Moral behaviours to their Children because you have to yours.. Or would you won't something in place to bring acknowledgement to everyone what Good Morals Human Beings should be? You see, there will always be a Need for something in context to Relay this until we don't have to learn it, but Do..


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## Brazko (Oct 21, 2009)

I mean Paddy, you don't understand how sometime, I have to bite my tongue, or just simply walk away, because somebody feels it's cool to say Fag around me because they feel I'm Christian and against someone being Gay.., Like I guess somebody would say the N word amongst their contemporaries as it was Ok.. I simply have to refrain from saying anything or walk away because I don't want to go in a Frantic Beast Rage beating the Shit out of their Ignorant Ass, claiming something I hold dearly as a Truth and defiling it with Dogmatic practices and beliefs.. I'm just telling you it's not all religious constructs that act this way but follow the conduct that was set in place by Christ.. Myth if you wish.. and I understand you, but after beating the shit out of them, they probably will have a harder time accepting the people they just made fun of, including me for accepting them.. So I ignore them.. and demostrate to each individual my set of beliefs by my actions.. I know it's hard but you can't beat the Stupidity out of some one, only into them...


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## OregonMeds (Oct 22, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Wasn't Christianities message to those other cultures it was accepting "Assimilate or burn in hellfire?"
> 
> Christian tolerance of other cultures only extended so far as those that could be used to increase their numbers.
> 
> ...


Cristianity is about as accepting of other religions as being a muslim is. Assimilate or die used to be standard practice aka the crusades, now it's much more watered down but you folks don't even help starving people etc without also shoving the bible down their throats. 

Excuse me for stating the obvious but the last thing starving people need is a bible. Too bad people don't just help to help and instead only do it to further their ranks and push their agendas.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 22, 2009)

[youtube]bS4aE0hDhog[/youtube]


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## Sure Shot (Oct 22, 2009)

Bravo


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## morgentaler (Oct 22, 2009)

Christians never expect non-Christians to have read the bible. 

Would you?

After all, if someone is one of the many people who follow the religion, but haven't actually bothered to read the holy book that they claim defines their life, would they expect a non-believer to do so?

It boggles the mind.

It would be like someone who believes in witches daring to read Harry Potter.

It's interesting that there wasn't a single reply from the religious ones when I asked about Sodom and Gomorrah in one of these threads.

Guess they realized that it might be a trick question, and the common answer isn't the one written down 




CrackerJax said:


> Perhaps you should read my posts first... I have stated already that indeed I have read the Bible... I have studied Theology at the University level. I was raised catholic and confirmation and all that. Been there, done that......
> 
> Maybe you should start reading what's inside the threads..... instead of the titles....


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## morgentaler (Oct 22, 2009)

I find it ironic when Babs rants about the Muslims, but if you go on YouTube you can see fundamentalist Christians advocating capital punishment for atheism, adultery, homosexuality, apostasy, and anything they don't like.

My favorite was the woman who accuses all atheists of being pedophiles who want to bring down the church to have access to the children who are no longer under the protection of Jesus. There's so much irony there, the words are magnetic.

She _*is*_ right about Islam being a threat though. She just doesn't understand why Christianity is just as big a threat.

The only reason we don't have executions in the town squares here is because religion doesn't hold absolute power over the people, like it does in some Middle Eastern countries. But if religion continues to infiltrate schools, politics, and the military via dominionism, we'll see North America rendered into another religious third world region.

I found it very interesting that the top 10 most religious states also allow the death penalty. In fact you'd be hard pressed to find a state more fixated on getting religion into schools than Texas. 

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/dpusa.htm

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20090202/report-top-10-most-religious-states-in-america/index.html

Arizona must be feeling pretty proud too. When important government issues like Uranium mining are decided by someone who evaluates environmental impact using the concept of a 6,000 year old Earth.

Hopefully the rapture will come take her away before she has to figure out what to do with the toxic byproducts of the mine. 

The church must love the fact that the US education system is floundering. Countries where children receive a good education have more athiests, and the church doesn't want kids growing up with the ability to question the world around them.

So many people proclaim the US to be a good Christian nation. Could that be why the military budget dwarfs all others? So the foreign blasphemers can be killed with peaceful cluster bombs, and loving artillery strikes?

Oh you got me ranting  Darn you! 



OregonMeds said:


> Cristianity is about as accepting of other religions as being a muslim is. Assimilate or die used to be standard practice aka the crusades, now it's much more watered down but you folks don't even help starving people etc without also shoving the bible down their throats.
> 
> Excuse me for stating the obvious but the last thing starving people need is a bible. Too bad people don't just help to help and instead only do it to further their ranks and push their agendas.


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## Brazko (Oct 22, 2009)

CJ, why are you using my statement as your quote and not giving me credit for it...Sign my name to it dammit.. I said it, I didn't quote it, give me my props , You act like you ever had something intelligent to say.., I only see quotes of ignorant stuff you have said put on signatures, that's fucked up, you didn't say that and you didn't put my name behind it to give proper do.. Pitiful..

You've already proven yourself to be a fraud and say whatever comes out of your ass.., Now you stealing my thoughts too...

I get it, that's how you acquire your information because "You don't Know " <<<< Yeah, those are your thoughts.. 

Just put B, Brazko, or, My God..as in your God..whatever works, but don't claim my works, you don't believe in me remember 

Just correct it please or ill put your name behind some shit you didn't say


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## CrackerJax (Oct 22, 2009)

I was using anonymity to protect you, but I will certainly give you the full credit.


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## Brazko (Oct 22, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I was using anonymity to protect you, but I will certainly give you the full credit.


Thank You.. Yeah, I need anonymity from speaking the truth, you can twist it to mean whatever you want and its still a lie..however the statement is True..Right? Yeah, that's what I thought<<< You see, "I thought"..but your the lucky winner because you get to have your Lie signatured..., No, not the truth, Your quoted lie<<<< Yeah, that's what you do......ahhhhhhhhhh, maybe not....too much of a waste in energy..

Guess Ill just talk about it and do nothing.. Then force you to believe I do, that way you won't know I didn't..Just taking the actual step out of making it real


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## CrackerJax (Oct 22, 2009)

Dang you keep giving me sig's.... u think u made sense there do you?  hooboy!!


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## toshola (Oct 22, 2009)

Its all a Chinese box. Pull back the red curtain to find you are staring at the blue one.


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## Brazko (Oct 22, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Dang you keep giving me sig's.... u think u made sense there do you?  hooboy!!


To whom it was directed to..It did...I cannot always speak to a primates conscious (Grey Matter), so I always make sure I at least reach their subconscious (the spirit)..Oh My. You Monkey!!


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## Babs34 (Oct 22, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> I find it ironic when Babs rants about the Muslims, but if you go on YouTube you can see fundamentalist Christians advocating capital punishment for atheism, adultery, homosexuality, apostasy, and anything they don't like.
> 
> *And you still believe it can even be remotely compared, eh?*
> *I've been to hundreds of churchs.......never once been encountered with what you say they as a group advocate.*
> ...


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## morgentaler (Oct 22, 2009)

Yes. It can be directly compared.
Christian's don't have a theocracy here. The dominionists are pushing hard for it every day, but so far the constitutions of the US and Canada are holding them at bay.

If the tyranny of theocracy makes itself present again, you can expect to see a return to the system that made one North American town famous. You might have heard of the place. It was called Salem.


edit: I should add, that since you've never professed a desire to murder us for atheism or blasphemy, I wouldn't expect you to be one of the bloodthirsty ones. Nor would I expect most. The issue is that dogmatic faith allows the fundamentalists and extremists to overrun the moderates very easily. The overwhelming danger of religion is that you can't reason with someone who thinks that God is directing them to do something.

edit2: Imagine if a radical fundamentalist evangelical sleeper makes it into the White House under the guise of a moderate. One of the many who believe that 'The Rapture' is coming and must be heralded by Armageddon. Would you want someone like that in charge of nuclear weapons? Consider ourselves lucky that the Bush family loved money more than their religious beliefs. Or we'd likely be talking via smoke signals right now.



_With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg_


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## Babs34 (Oct 22, 2009)

*This is so sickingly redundant. You're worried about Christians burning people in THIS day and age with what's going on in the world?*
*You obviously don't live in America and know of how islam is making it's permanent imprint upon society.*
*Any sane person would take the laws of America as they are now over sharia, even its nicest version..........well, except CJ. *
*You and CJ both are more prone to accepting sharia over current law.*

*That says it all right there.*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 22, 2009)

Just keep making it up as you go along.... ur doing great. like a genius U R.


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## morgentaler (Oct 22, 2009)

Wow, Babs.
So the two atheists who praise secular government and have open contempt for religion would happily accept religious law?

Have you not been paying any attention to the whole atheist thing or are you just stupid?

Christianity is a bunch of made up bullshit. Islam is a bunch of made up bullshit. Judaism is a bunch of made up bullshit... etc. etc.

What's next? You're going say we're more likely to accept South Park law?


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## Babs34 (Oct 23, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Just keep making it up as you go along.... ur doing great. like a genius U R.


* Let's see CJ. Um, there's this little thing called "proof".......but you know the truth already. *
*That will suffice.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 23, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Wow, Babs.
> So the two atheists who praise secular government and have open contempt for religion would happily accept religious law?
> 
> Have you not been paying any attention to the whole atheist thing or are you just stupid?
> ...


*There are very few countries left where sharia hasn't been proposed.*
*Slowly, but surely, it IS being incorporated, but we still focus on the common law we know, and have known and practiced, for over a hundred years now? **......because there is a need to be scared of the Christians as a whole---and the likelihood they would like to resort back to the stone ages and burn people as punishment? Come on now.*
*Muslims are STILL to this day practicing horendously outrageous laws.*
*It's funny when they come from the mideast to flee the oppression only to come to the West---to instill the same here.*
*We're so politically correct and continue to open our doors to their sick laws.*
*Even worse is that by being so PC, all too many remain ignorant to what it is they should rightfully fear.*


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## CrackerJax (Oct 23, 2009)

Islam has been here a long time now.... no worries.....the USA isn't about having a favorite religion. Maybe you should take a civics class, or two, or three.


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## Babs34 (Oct 23, 2009)

*Maybe you should stop believing you've nothing to learn. *


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## morgentaler (Oct 23, 2009)

Awwwww. The sweet miracle of child abuse.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/10/maybe_baby_jesus_is_playing_wi.php


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## CrackerJax (Oct 23, 2009)

Babs isn't even coherent anymore....


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## morgentaler (Oct 23, 2009)

She's channeling Braz?


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## CrackerJax (Oct 23, 2009)

Let's hope not...... They wouldn't have enough tin foil between them.


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## Babs34 (Oct 23, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Babs isn't even coherent anymore....


*Babs is on to your silly ass and you can't hang, thus the DESPERATE need to neg-rep...oh mature one of intellect. *


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## CrackerJax (Oct 23, 2009)

I have already explained why u got neg repped. It was for not being a mature poster and simply admitting u were wrong. Unable to muster enough politeness to do so forced me to prove I had not indeed neg repped you (the first time). 
You still seem to be slow on the uptake even though I have explained it to you in the simplest way I know how..... and yet.


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## Babs34 (Oct 23, 2009)

*I'm not slow on the uptake. You are just AGAIN omnipotent with your positions.*
*Dare to not believe after your projecting your "coherent beliefs/proofs"........suffer the wrath.*
*You dare to speak of maturity? YOU C*j?*
*Keep progressing..get back to me---much later. *

*I'm betting you have never even once on RIU, or in life in general, admitted to fallacy.*
*I've proven I have.*
*You lose. Your logic fails you EVERY last single time.*


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## Babs34 (Oct 23, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I have already explained why u got neg repped. It was for not being a mature poster and simply admitting u were wrong. Unable to muster enough politeness to do so forced me to prove I had not indeed neg repped you (the first time).
> You still seem to be slow on the uptake even though I have explained it to you in the simplest way I know how..... and yet.


 *Apologize or suffer....sounding kinda religous there C*J. *
*At least religion defines what warrants apology.*
*Get unstuck babe.*


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## morgentaler (Oct 23, 2009)

You spent a whole day bitching and whining about CJ giving you neg rep, with no proof that he did so. So when he gave you a neg rep to show you that he couldn't possibly have given you the one you were bitching about, did you say "Oh, I was wrong. You made your point. Would you be nice enough to to counter that with a positive rep?"

No. You just went on another tirade.

Think about that for a moment, and then decide your next course of action.


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## CrackerJax (Oct 23, 2009)

screw ..... very ..... loose.


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## Stoney McFried (Oct 24, 2009)

I don't have anything against you, I just feel like you get a little out there.I haven't personally attacked anyone on here; the only time I've attacked anyone on RIU is when they attacked me first, or in the case of one person a while back,I attacked him because he posted ignorant and hateful bullshit about homosexuals and women that could not be allowed to continue.If i neg rep someone, I sign it; however,a couple of times I've neg repped someone and hit enter before I typed my name,brain fart moment,but I've told them of the neg rep. The reason I exercise the neg rep function is because some people post such offensive, false,or nonsensical shit that just telling them off doesn't seem quite enough.I do give out a lot of random positive rep as well.


Brazko said:


> You know, I'm Sorry Too....., CJ, NOitall, Stoney, Morgentaler, Paddy, & anybody I missed that felt like I my have Offended them.., Making somebody angry doesn't feel Good, and it doesn't make you feel Good afterwards when pouring that Anger back out on them... Like I said , I was sympathetic and had empathy, and wished to only discuss what their apsects on life Was as I or anybody discussed Theres, It doesn't have to be about religious aspects, just sharing knowledge that's all.... Jus like Box said, you only hurt Yourself when you try to Hurt others..., I know this to be All to true.., That is Why I never wish to Hurt anybody, you just feel bad afterwards... Like I said, I need to learn from my elders and Just ignore conversation with them or anybody that only wants to insult and argue, if reasonable discussion cannot be Made... I apologize to them all, and to all who had to sit through and listen.., Like I said, I'm my biggest Critic, you can't even begin to Judge me with an Ounce of Criticism that I haven't already Judged myself 10 fold ON...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## NOWitall (Nov 3, 2009)

you aint never offended me brazko

at least i dont think so

admittedly i have the short term memory of a brain damaged fruit fly.

but heres one for all of you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIiUqfxFttM

from the bottom of my heart 

edit:
oh and how the hell do you imbed a youtube video in this forum


----------



## Brazko (Nov 3, 2009)

NOWitall said:


> you aint never offended me brazko
> 
> at least i dont think so
> 
> ...


[.youtube] KiUqfxFttm [/youtube.]

place that red code at the end as I did above, but don't use any periods in the brackets and don't leave any spaces b/t the brackets where the code goes.

That's Frankie Baby!! 

edit: that has to be explained like that, so that you make the adjustments yourself, If we did it exactly as we said to do it, then you would see the Video instead of the code.. , WOW


----------



## Brazko (Nov 23, 2009)

There's something screwy around here!, 




[youtube]Ct-oeCMUbO4[/youtube]


[youtube]B0O2uFdYJI0[/youtube]


----------



## CrackerJax (Nov 23, 2009)

You can't be wrong if you occupy every position.

You can't be right either.


----------



## Brazko (Nov 23, 2009)

..., ,  ..., 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position


----------



## CrackerJax (Nov 23, 2009)

Great answer.

As usual, ur posts are empty.


----------



## PadawanBater (Nov 23, 2009)

Brazko said:


> There's something screwy around here!,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
"Nobody really understands how this happened..." -referring to the Cambrian explosion.

- Wrong. Scientists have very good theories on exactly what happened to produce such diversity in such a *relatively short* period of time. 

- algea from the oceans produced more oxygen, more oxygen was absorbed into the atmosphere creating the ozone layer (O3), which deflected UV rays from the sun, allowing life to take off and diversify. More organisms led to more environmental competition, which led to natural selection. The environment, along with the already rich body of critters with teeth and claws running around produced rapid evolution. The fact we don't have fossil evidence of a lot of the transitions between pre-cambrian organisms and post-cambrian organisms doesn't mean it didn't happen. The conditions of earth during that time might have been hostile to the formation of fossils. We know today that it is extremely difficult for a fossil to form, and even rarer for someone to find it. Of every human being living in America today (that's over 330 million), statisticly if we all dropped dead today, less than one complete human skeleton would become fossilized. The fact we have any fossils is amazing.

"Darwin expected it to happen slowly..."

- Awesome! Darwin also might have expected to have a full head of hair in his old age..., Darwins expectations regarding his theory don't falsify the evidence in any way.


----------



## CrackerJax (Nov 23, 2009)

Evolution has been proven over and over again for over 150 years.

Religion has not been proven ONCE!

Gosh ... which way do I go?


----------



## Brazko (Nov 23, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> "Nobody really understands how this happened..." -referring to the Cambrian explosion.
> 
> - Wrong. Scientists have very good theories on exactly what happened to produce such diversity in such a *relatively short* period of time.
> 
> ...


This wasn't a post to say evolution is invalid, it was more to the point that diverse life appeared at once.., Those factors you mentioned have little revelancy to the fact that these fossils have been found all over the world, and although the subtle variance in like species the basic blueprint of differing structures took place all over the planet.., The subject of algae you speak of including the bacteria and so forth is part of it but it's not saying evolution is false just the way it may of happened, as suggested instead of there being 1 common ancestor, that there was a field of ancestors, but all at once (not abracadabra once), geologocially speaking. Also, that's the question as to why we don't have no trace of transitional fossils at this stage, when we have identified embryos of microscopic level and soft tissue, prior to the cambrian fossils, but no transitional fossils from single cellular to the many multicellular species that inhabitated the water around the world at once. The evolution Phylum theory still remains quite reasonably true, but it just wasn't one phylum, but a field!! It doesn't mean the transitions didn't happen, but the information and evidence points differently.

I've watched a little over halve of the full length movie, and it goes into detail of how the information must be passed along through the membrane of the cell (before DNA plays a role) within the single cell, which begins it's mutation into the more complex multicellular organisms.., And that is the ponder now as to where this information must have come from ie. ID, or if not through selective transitional mutations (which are not evident, yet). I would have posted the movie as well but, it hasn't been put up on the web and is only available by DVD now. I just happened to catch it on t.v. last night scrolling and began looking into it further. 

Darwin's Dilemma: the Cambrian explosion

The information I watched looked pretty solid, although I have seen from both sides of the arguements through researching, of people making non-sensical statements and assumptions with regards to the information, while disallowing competent reasoning and logic within the components of the evidence provided. (ie. everybody sticking to their faith)


----------



## Brazko (Nov 23, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Great answer.
> 
> As usual, ur posts are empty.


Did you say something? 



C*J's Free Will - SCRATCHeD off The List,


----------



## CrackerJax (Nov 23, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Did you say something?
> 
> 
> 
> C*J's Free Will - SCRATCHeD off The List,



Yes, i'd imagine ur a list person.


----------



## Brazko (Nov 23, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Yes, i'd imagine ur a list person.


I must keep a list of my SubOrdinates Do's and Don'ts..., 

Sadly, you are the only one I have to Micro Manage nowadays.., Can A G' get a vacation...Geeeeeze. I knew it would be a waste giving you two of everything. Unless you have something productive to say or, happen to fart & the dust shakes off your brain,>>>>>>


----------



## CrackerJax (Nov 23, 2009)

I can see why circular logic is so appealing to you.


----------



## Smallsn (Dec 22, 2009)

Imagine that when we find out our true creator, the world just gets whip out. POOW! and its just white. LOL just stonedd


----------



## CrackerJax (Dec 22, 2009)

My creator is 76 years old ...


----------



## Brazko (Dec 22, 2009)

Your Creator is Much Older than sEventy-6 .... Much too Old for you to Remember, 

Luckily, Your Creator Ages like Fine Wine, You still have Opportunity 2 taste..., 

No matter, the Longer the Better



CrackerJax said:


> My creator is 76 years old ...


----------



## CrackerJax (Dec 23, 2009)

Says you, there is only one creator that is evident. the other is pure conjecture based on nothing more than wishful thinking.

Not knowing the ABC's is no excuse to insert XYZ.


----------



## Brazko (Dec 23, 2009)

So, What evidence do you need for me to prove that your Creator is Much Older than 7-six, as I stated before. The other is an imaginary Wall that you and your posting comrades hide behind with self doubt and fear. 

I already Know A-Z, That's what I'm explaining to you. You're still stuck on G, Know your ABC's


----------



## CrackerJax (Dec 23, 2009)

Can't see the gigantic flaw in ur own post????


----------



## morgentaler (Dec 23, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Can't see the gigantic flaw in ur own post????


 No, he doesn't. The idea that he can presuppose his own concept of something he absolutely can not know as fact, and state it as such, is not seen as a flaw by him and his ilk, but as a virtue of faith.

In the same way that idiots rave about Jesus being love and using the New Testament for their evidence, but carefully omitting any part where he says that unbelievers will suffer.

And just like the Old Testament will be used to back up some moral argument by citing a lesson in it, but as soon as you counter with the evils of slavery, rape, torture, genocide, the little hypocrites counter with &quot;Oh, but all this changed with the New Testament and the breaking of the covenants&quot;.

They want to have it their way, every way, but the way of the truth is not one of those ways.


----------



## OregonMeds (Dec 23, 2009)

Brazko said:


> Luckily, Your Creator Ages like Fine Wine, You still have Opportunity 2 taste...,
> 
> No matter, the Longer the Better


This is a new argument I haven't heard before.

When wine starts out sour, it only gets worse. You can put a nice new label on it and water it down to make it appear ok in a modern world , but it's still just the same stinking vinegar inside.


----------



## Brazko (Dec 23, 2009)

No Cracker, I don't see the Gigantic flaw in my post, You seemingly possess the ability to see it though. So show Me?



CrackerJax said:


> Can't see the gigantic flaw in ur own post????


Word of the Day!! (Presuppose)

Because I know we have intelligent people out there, I won't address the stone age post you just made, it has became practically boring listening to you guys present such repetitive monkey brained arguements that have nothing to do with the actual point of discussion at hand. Gibberish

But, Please, Show Me the flaw and the unknown facts I stated as fact..? Thanks




morgentaler said:


> No, he doesn't. The idea that he can presuppose his own concept of something he absolutely can not know as fact, and state it as such, is not seen as a flaw by him and his ilk, but as a virtue of faith.
> 
> In the same way that idiots rave about Jesus being love and using the New Testament for their evidence, but carefully omitting any part where he says that unbelievers will suffer.
> 
> ...


Fly Ball LeFt Field

Is this a new arguement you heard or just made up  And what was the point? 

Are you following what I said to my minion, or just venting your personal frustrations just for the sake of Spewing? 




OregonMeds said:


> This is a new argument I haven't heard before.
> 
> When wine starts out sour, it only gets worse. You can put a nice new label on it and water it down to make it appear ok in a modern world , but it's still just the same stinking vinegar inside.


This has become Remedially SLOW. I forgot you all don't even know your ABC's


----------



## Sure Shot (Dec 23, 2009)

You know we are all atheist to some point.
You don't worship Ra, Thor, Zeus, and don't believe they existed right?
Why not just go the next step and stay ahead of the curve?
Yahweh is a false idol just like all the rest.


----------



## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 24, 2009)

*Calling any scientist-like entity to please explain the science behind the direction of genetic transfer after getting naked like me, because We believe genetic drift is real.*


----------



## emmaegdy (Dec 24, 2009)

LOL, gah all yah did was point out the universe is expanding! no proof here of a "creator" plus its way to hard to believe in the theory/ fiction story of a alll powerful creator!


----------



## CrackerJax (Dec 24, 2009)

Brazko said:


> No Cracker, I don't see the Gigantic flaw in my post, You seemingly possess the ability to see it though. So show Me?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Not a single answer or real response .... shuffle off.

Next!!


----------



## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 24, 2009)

*Can God Live Far Away?*

[youtube]u8lGCjd9W8U[/youtube]


----------



## PadawanBater (Dec 24, 2009)

What I never got is why would anyone believe anything based solely on something they heard or read? Why wouldn't they go investigate these claims for themselves and figure out for themselves the Bible and all of man made religion is clearly bullshit? 

Do some people just not get past step 1 or what?


----------



## Brazko (Dec 24, 2009)

Answer to what? Respond to what? As if anyone posed a legitimate question about anything, But I did, so answer my question so I can better serve your need to know..

Lol (shuffle off) lol 

I'm learning to just say good job and smile hopelessly whenever some of you decide to post anything with regards to spirituality.

I prefer to Skip, as in skip the monkey brained posts that have little to no insight other than feeble attempts to insult a believer/theist, only due to the insecure, regretful, self doubting nature that consumes them. Misery loves Company. I was enjoying the read of watching you all implode on each other. But people of spiritual nature won't post because they can't discuss their beliefs without full scale attack, when attempts to learn and understand their beliefs should be the point of discussions (this isn't the debate section). All the free thinking atheist attempt to discourage and convert, the free thinking creationist, into adeist. But that's the point right, you all don't want to discuss, its about conversion (hahaha) MISERY lmAo 

So say something of substance, so that I may have reason to think. I put more effort in coloring books. 



CrackerJax said:


> Not a single answer or real response .... shuffle off.
> 
> Next!!


----------



## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 24, 2009)

"What I never got is why would anyone believe anything based solely on something they heard or read?"

Why Worry About IT?
Do They Worry About You?
peace*
*


----------



## PadawanBater (Dec 24, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> "What I never got is why would anyone believe anything based solely on something they heard or read?"
> 
> Why Worry About IT?
> *Do They Worry About You?*
> peace


 
I'm forced to worry about it because these people vote in elections that affect me. 

Do fanatical Christians worry about an atheist??? 

lmfao


----------



## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 24, 2009)

We dream more efficient uses of time than worrying about converting the beliefs of others We do not subscribe to.

Surrounding yourself with voter flavors more to your tastes can be good.


----------



## PadawanBater (Dec 24, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> We dream more efficient uses of time than worrying about converting the beliefs of others We do not subscribe to.
> 
> Surrounding yourself with voter flavors more to your tastes can be good.


Tell the Christians to get the fuck out of the lobby business and there wouldn't be a problem. We'd have a secular government, where the possibility of an atheist president is just as likely as a theistic one. Instead, today, you have IDIOTS lobbying against people who are atheist holding any kind of public position. Go ask South Carolina...


----------



## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 24, 2009)

Waiting around and converting the Christians doesn't seem that efficient of a zombie plan.


----------



## Big P (Dec 24, 2009)

what if we were all devil worshipers and we were angry, or maybe losing our faith in the devil 

because if the devil is all powerful and super evil why does he allow happiness ever to occur on earth?

what kind of devil is he if he cant even stop people form having fun and enjoying life?

if he does exisit hes not much of a devil is he

he dont scare me, look devil! look! i just helped an old lady sucka!!!!


----------



## Babs34 (Dec 25, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> Tell the Christians to get the fuck out of the lobby business and there wouldn't be a problem. We'd have a secular government, where the possibility of an atheist president is just as likely as a theistic one. Instead, today, you have IDIOTS lobbying against people who are atheist holding any kind of public position. Go ask South Carolina...


*........tell all those with views opposing yours to just evaporate? 1383's day will come.*

*I'll take you remotely seriously when you even begin to rant about politicians NOW in office who have sworn on the quran---which makes it permissible to lie to the kaffir to further the cause of islam. *
*Grow up lil bear. The USA has bigger fish to fry.*

*Oh...and Merry Christmas.*


----------



## PadawanBater (Dec 25, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *........tell all those with views opposing yours to just evaporate? 1383's day will come.*
> 
> *I'll take you remotely seriously when you even begin to rant about politicians NOW in office who have sworn on the quran---which makes it permissible to lie to the kaffir to further the cause of islam. *
> *Grow up lil bear. The USA has bigger fish to fry.*
> ...


So you're accusing me of wanting to "evaporate" all opposing views, while in the same post implying that somehow the 2 or 3 American politicians who also happen to be Muslim (the peaceful kind of Muslim at that, not the madeup 10% kind Rick talks about), are a serious threat to the American way of life... 

Are you really that simple? Do you just need a nap and a hot cocoa for things to get better? 

99% of American politicans are CHRISTIAN. If you have a problem with American politics, perhaps there's your answer.

Merry Christmyth to you too!


----------



## morgentaler (Dec 25, 2009)

Happy Jesus-on-a-stick day or whatever it is they want to convince you this day represents, since it was actually a day of celebration for the winter solstice for numerous religions celebrating the rebirth of the Sun.


----------



## PadawanBater (Dec 25, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Happy Jesus-on-a-stick day or whatever it is they want to convince you this day represents, since it was actually a day of celebration for the winter solstice for numerous religions celebrating the rebirth of the Sun.


 
Don't remind em it's the biggest economic boost of the year...

Worship your Lord and Savior, your holy Massiah, the almighty God, the one who created all and everyone who ever was... or just spend a few bucks to keep business as usual going... it's all the same...


----------



## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 25, 2009)

*"Buy Coke" - Santa*


----------



## Babs34 (Dec 25, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> *"Buy Coke" - Santa*


 
*Merry Christmas Hippie*


----------



## thedude121212 (Dec 25, 2009)

people who wear sandals





get what they deserve
jk, merry christmas!


----------



## CrackerJax (Dec 26, 2009)

I would just as likely vote for a politician who believes in the Qaran than the Bible. 

They are both equally wrong. There is no criticism of Islam that cannot be leveled at Christianity in the same breath.


----------



## Hydrotech364 (Dec 27, 2009)

What about intelligent design?The scientists have admitted that they cant explain how the cell was initially formed and charged and the chances of it happening naturally are near impossible.I dont believe any of the above as far as Gods go.IMO Intelligent design is the only choice.Check on it even the top Athiest(Scientist's) start stuttering if you ask them how and when evolution actually began.Maybe Aliens?Guess we will need to call Tom Cruise about that.


----------



## CrackerJax (Dec 27, 2009)

Is our understanding of evolution complete? Certainly not, far from it, but not knowing the abc's is no excuse for inserting xyz and calling it a day.

Intelligent design has been defeated over and over again ... it's simply not science.


----------



## PadawanBater (Dec 27, 2009)

hydrotech364 said:


> What about intelligent design?The scientists have admitted that they cant explain how the cell was initially formed and charged and the chances of it happening naturally are near impossible.I dont believe any of the above as far as Gods go.IMO Intelligent design is the only choice.Check on it even the top Athiest(Scientist's) start stuttering if you ask them how and when evolution actually began.Maybe Aliens?Guess we will need to call Tom Cruise about that.


 
ID FAILS at every turn!

You know what it amounts to?

"evolution can't explain ______, so God did it!"


...Some theory.


----------



## morgentaler (Dec 27, 2009)

hydrotech364 said:


> What about intelligent design?


What about it? It's religion. It's not science.



> The scientists have admitted that they cant explain how the cell was initially formed and charged and the chances of it happening naturally are near impossible.


And what scientists would that be? Certainly not cellular biologists.
Let's just assume that without naming any scientists in particular that you are a big fat liar.



> I dont believe any of the above as far as Gods go.IMO Intelligent design is the only choice.


Intelligent design is the only choice for someone who puts not value in scientific research, but prefers child molesters and con men to educate them in the workings of the world. 



> Check on it even the top Athiest(Scientist's) start stuttering if you ask them how and when evolution actually began.Maybe Aliens?Guess we will need to call Tom Cruise about that.



You don't even understand what evolution is. Evolution began when time began. It's not limited to biological entities. Evolution is change over time, whether in organisms or molecules.
Interactions between elements on the surface of the cooling earth led to the formation of simple molecules, which in time led to the formation of more complex molecules, some of which were stable and continued to exist, while others were unstable and had a brief existence. Those molecules which lasted in turn gained additional information by interaction with other molecules. 

You're likely trying to say "Scientists don't know how life on Earth began! They don't have proof!"

No, they can only extrapolate from the data they have, such as molecular complexity, the formation of amino acids, experiments in proteins and enzymes, environmental factors, etc. The higher probability lies with a natural event, but they can not discount the possibility of life coming from offworld in the form of a single cell organism in a meteorite, or even a seeding program by a theoretical offworld life form. They do not state that any potentiality is the absolute truth because there isn't enough data to make a claim yet.

Unlike intelligent design, which says "God did it. Yes, God. What are you talking about, proof? It's God! God doesn't need proof! Look, a duck! Can't you see the god?! It's right there, in the duckiness of the thing! No no, put down that microscope! DNA proves nothing! Endogenous Retroviruses? What are those? We don't know what they are so they must not be relevant! God God God! La La La I can't hear you unless you're praying to Kent Hovind's wallet!"


----------



## woodds (Dec 28, 2009)

I have one questions for everyone...What about demonic forces and satanic beings seen around the world..They certainly do exist..So why cant other such spiritual beings also exist???


----------



## OregonMeds (Dec 28, 2009)

woodds said:


> I have one questions for everyone...What about demonic forces and satanic beings seen around the world..They certainly do exist..So why cant other such spiritual beings also exist???


They aren't real man, you just want to think they are. All those shows are for entertainment.

They're delicious as snacks though:


----------



## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 28, 2009)

We've a graveyard for you to spend the dark of night in, Mr. Meds.

No lights allowed.


----------



## OregonMeds (Dec 28, 2009)

I know you want to sleep with me hippie but you're too far away.


----------



## CrackerJax (Dec 28, 2009)

woodds said:


> I have one questions for everyone...What about demonic forces and satanic beings seen around the world..They certainly do exist..So why cant other such spiritual beings also exist???




Now some won't see the hysterically funny dry wit here.....
[youtube]y2Bczh1C-EI[/youtube]


----------



## morgentaler (Dec 28, 2009)

woodds said:


> I have one questions for everyone...What about demonic forces and satanic beings seen around the world..They certainly do exist..So why cant other such spiritual beings also exist???


You've made the claim, now prove they exist using the scientific method.

You know, the method that gave you computers, nuclear power, missions to mars, the cures for smallpox, polio, etc., and allowed the development of dozens of strains of weed.

If you argue against science in support of that superstitious bullshit you are free to strip down naked and go live off bugs and seeds in the desert, where you can be free from the knowledge gathered by people who live in the real world.


----------



## CrackerJax (Dec 28, 2009)




----------



## Hydrotech364 (Dec 28, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> What about it? It's religion. It's not science.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Listen I watched a special on it the other night,saw 3 scientists lock up on the question of how cellular life originated.I am by no means religous.I dont lie either there is no gain in lying about what was on tv.I dont believe any any of these theories and could give a fuck less.Just wanted to throw it out there because i dont understand it.When ya went out there with the child molesters and con men you really lashed for no reason,I am not in an argument with anyone so suck my nut Morgen.


----------



## CrackerJax (Dec 28, 2009)

[youtube]JJA6cMXjhGY[/youtube]


----------



## morgentaler (Dec 28, 2009)

hydrotech364 said:


> Listen I watched a special on it the other night,saw 3 scientists lock up on the question of how cellular life originated.I am by no means religous.I dont lie either there is no gain in lying about what was on tv.I dont believe any any of these theories and could give a fuck less.Just wanted to throw it out there because i dont understand it.When ya went out there with the child molesters and con men you really lashed for no reason,I am not in an argument with anyone so suck my nut Morgen.


And what's your "special".
Was it an intelligent design show with an agenda? Let's see the name of it, so we can see just who it was that bamboozled the scientists.

You just made an argument for intelligent design so you are either completely ignorant of what intelligent design and evolution are, or you're a liar.

Presenting intelligent design as having validity is offensive to anyone who prefers academia and thought over sky-gods and mystic prayer rituals.

Intelligent design is straight-up biblical creationism with a new name tagged on it because creationism was already blocked from being forced on children in public schools. It brings nothing new to the table. There is no academic evidence, no fossil collection, no DNA analysis. It is presupposition of biblical creationism as fact without analysis.

And as for claiming to be "non-religious", then why are you spouting Christian creationist propaganda?


----------



## Hydrotech364 (Dec 28, 2009)

I'm the A typical non believer.The show was on Natgeo I think.The interviewer was Mr Ben Stein.Too rich to be stupid.There is that fucking LIAR word again you dont know me for shit so if you wish to make a personal attack do it in a PM.When was I spouting anything i proposed a view that I didnt understand.That is how we learn.I think you will be the 1st person Ive ignored in the years I have been here out of all the greazy pieces of shit met here.You earned it though.The documentary is called Expelled.


----------



## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 28, 2009)

miscommunication sung to the anticipation 

ketchup theme


----------



## morgentaler (Dec 28, 2009)

hydrotech364 said:


> I'm the A typical non believer.The show was on Natgeo I think.The interviewer was Mr Ben Stein.Too rich to be stupid.There is that fucking LIAR word again you dont know me for shit so if you wish to make a personal attack do it in a PM.When was I spouting anything i proposed a view that I didnt understand.That is how we learn.I think you will be the 1st person Ive ignored in the years I have been here out of all the greazy pieces of shit met here.You earned it though.The documentary is called Expelled.


Expelled is not a documentary.
It's a creationist propaganda movie. The academics interviewed for the movie were lied to about what it was.

See, I don't really care if you ignore me or not. When people have brought up Intelligent Design and claimed they are non-Christian in the past, they have invariably started spouting biblical bullshit in the days and weeks that follow.

If you're not a liar for Jesus, you didn't at least look into Intelligent Design other than to watch Ben Stein and his ridiculous video, and you apparently haven't bothered to read the very thread you posted in.

So, no, I'm not going to hold your hand and coach you through life, Sparky.


----------



## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 28, 2009)

Why must Intelligent Design involve modern Christians?


----------



## morgentaler (Dec 28, 2009)

The term was coined by Christians so they could force it into the school system.
That's why.


----------



## CrackerJax (Dec 28, 2009)

Intelligent design is a perfect fit with the church. They both start out with a lie.

ID is not a science...... it does not belong in any category with science. In the end, it is faith based and sourced.


----------



## woodds (Dec 28, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> They aren't real man, you just want to think they are. All those shows are for entertainment.
> 
> They're delicious as snacks though:


haha...ya they are


----------



## woodds (Dec 28, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> You've made the claim, now prove they exist using the scientific method.
> 
> You know, the method that gave you computers, nuclear power, missions to mars, the cures for smallpox, polio, etc., and allowed the development of dozens of strains of weed.
> 
> If you argue against science in support of that superstitious bullshit you are free to strip down naked and go live off bugs and seeds in the desert, where you can be free from the knowledge gathered by people who live in the real world.


why is it that it has to be solved with scientific method..i would not know how to prove such happenings but my not knowing does not mean there is no scientific way to prove it.My only suggestion is that you try it out for yourself(by it I mean speaking to demonic beings and so forth.)


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## OregonMeds (Dec 28, 2009)

Yea Morgen put your money where your mouth is and try talking to some demonic beings, you'll hear what he hears and that will finally shut you up! 

That's a psychological medical condition in desperate need of medication. Go talk to your doctor instead of demons.


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## CrackerJax (Dec 28, 2009)

You could start with the logical premise that angels and goblins are running around the earth is absurd.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 28, 2009)

I often wonder how much evilness in the world is due to evil spirits.
Lots of unsolved cases and missing folks out there.


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## woodds (Dec 28, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> Yea Morgen put your money where your mouth is and try talking to some demonic beings, you'll hear what he hears and that will finally shut you up!
> 
> That's a psychological medical condition in desperate need of medication. Go talk to your doctor instead of demons.


I have no psychological medical condition and I am in no need for medicine for such issues.How can one even say this when they do not even know the person sitting behind this computer.No I do not talk to demons I was simply saying he should try it for a month or two and find his result.


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## morgentaler (Dec 28, 2009)

woodds said:


> why is it that it has to be solved with scientific method..i would not know how to prove such happenings but my not knowing does not mean there is no scientific way to prove it.My only suggestion is that you try it out for yourself(by it I mean speaking to demonic beings and so forth.)


Because the scientific method is actually a very simple and structure application of common sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

There you go. 


If you believe in demons, you're naive.

If you believe they talk to you, you're sick.

If you listen to them, you're sick and a danger to everyone around you.


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## morgentaler (Dec 28, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> I often wonder how much evilness in the world is due to evil spirits.
> Lots of unsolved cases and missing folks out there.


Murder cases and abductions only have decent case closure percentages if the culprit is known to the victim.

Stranger-on-stranger violence is much harder to solve. And with a knowledge of forensics you can get away with a lot more than CSI would have you believe.

There is a big battle going on between forensic scientists and forensic cops over what is and isn't scientifically valid. A lot of things you'll see used as evidence are accepted as such, but were just successful methods the police developed and spread in use. But only now are many of them being challenged for their scientific validity.

Even fingerprinting has come into question after the bombings in Spain brought up a print match with an innocent American 5000 miles away.


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## woodds (Dec 28, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Because the scientific method is actually a very simple and structure application of common sense.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
> 
> ...


LOL..Okay so are you saying there can not be a way you can scientifically prove such phenomenons. There are many strange occurrences in this universe we can not yet explain. Such as disappearances from the Bermuda Triangle region.Why is it that science and religion can have a connection?


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## morgentaler (Dec 28, 2009)

woodds said:


> LOL..Okay so are you saying there can not be a way you can scientifically prove such phenomenons. There are many strange occurrences in this universe we can not yet explain. Such as disappearances from the Bermuda Triangle region.Why is it that science and religion can have a connection?


Actually they have addressed the Bermuda triangle.

Based on the amount of shipping traffic there is no statistical anomaly in the number of ships lost in the area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_triangle


Science and religion do not connect because science looks at evidence and makes conclusions based on that evidence.

Religion makes conclusions, discards any contradictory evidence and takes whatever it can out of context to support the original conclusion, and calls it fact.

Religions usually claim their god made the universe. To claim something is not to provide evidence.

Many religions claim their god is the true god. They haven't even proven their god exists, and they're already arguing about which is better.


Just because you don't know what causes something to occur today doesn't mean you have to assign demons, god, and other supernatural crap to it.
Virtually all the technology you use today has a root in something that would have been considered demonic or supernatural in origin at some point.


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## Stoney McFried (Dec 28, 2009)

Can you imagine how much fun we might actually have if there really were supernatural creatures running about,like in a video game? We'd hear the encounter music cue up, and we'd draw our trusty sword or firearm...and once they died,we could loot them!


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## woodds (Dec 28, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> Actually they have addressed the Bermuda triangle.
> 
> Based on the amount of shipping traffic there is no statistical anomaly in the number of ships lost in the area.
> 
> ...


Okay,,, while I think about a good response to that, I want to ask you what you believe as far as how we got here.


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## morgentaler (Dec 28, 2009)

Stoney McFried said:


> Can you imagine how much fun we might actually have if there really were supernatural creatures running about,like in a video game? We'd hear the encounter music cue up, and we'd draw our trusty sword or firearm...and once they died,we could loot them!


As long as we're not the saps in the first two minutes of XFiles and Supernatural being torn limb from limb or tentacle raped.


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## morgentaler (Dec 28, 2009)

woodds said:


> Okay,,, while I think about a good response to that, I want to ask you what you believe as far as how we got here.


Through a gradual process of evolution that began with single celled organisms.

How those organisms got here hasn't been determined yet.

Part of rejecting religion is realizing that you don't need to make up answers to questions that people don't have the answers to. That it's okay to not know how something happened, so you don't have to create intermediate fancies to bridge gaps. Leave the gaps until they can be filled with knowledge.


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## Stoney McFried (Dec 28, 2009)

Of course not.Those are extras.We're main characters.Just like every religious person who ever lived.


morgentaler said:


> As long as we're not the saps in the first two minutes of XFiles and Supernatural being torn limb from limb or tentacle raped.


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## OregonMeds (Dec 28, 2009)

woodds said:


> I have no psychological medical condition and I am in no need for medicine for such issues.How can one even say this when they do not even know the person sitting behind this computer.No I do not talk to demons I was simply saying he should try it for a month or two and find his result.


The result is complicated and mathematical but to summarize:

The amount of time wasted is x where x equals the amount of time wasted.


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## thablacksheep (Dec 28, 2009)

Greetings everyone. I would like to just submit a read that allowed me to use my imagination and life experiences to comprehend the literature consciously. I invite those who truly long for direction because of their hidden individual suffering, and not for debatable purposes, to consciously digest the substance of this read as well. Before reading this I do ask that you first sincerely understand that it is a strong possibility that the impressions received through readings or just our everyday encounters in life are mechanical due to the parenting that we received and other outside influences that completely direct who we are today. Our opinions and ideas are not of our own dominion but of the influences of others. Love is the Law...
http://gnosticteachings.org/courses/path-of-the-bodhisattva/02-gnostic-nativity-of-christ


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## OregonMeds (Dec 28, 2009)

thablacksheep said:


> Greetings everyone. I would like to just submit a read that allowed me to use my imagination and life experiences to comprehend the literature consciously. I invite those who truly long for direction because of their hidden individual suffering, and not for debatable purposes, to consciously digest the substance of this read as well. Before reading this I do ask that you first sincerely understand that it is a strong possibility that the impressions received through readings or just our everyday encounters in life are mechanical due to the parenting that we received and other outside influences that completely direct who we are today. Our opinions and ideas are not of our own dominion but of the influences of others. Love is the Law...
> http://gnosticteachings.org/courses/path-of-the-bodhisattva/02-gnostic-nativity-of-christ



By all means don't go there looking to question anything... OK

I went anyway and it reads like this all the way through:

Jesus has a J in it in our language, and the letter J represents the letter T in Klingon, which means lord or "lord of the rings", and lord begins with the letter l which if translated back from english to greek to myan then back to greek and then into ancient aramaic shows jesus crist existed because the klingons support the christ in all of us because we can all be lord.

Get it? Need the Hippie decoder ring...


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## Miss MeanWeed (Dec 28, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I think man has a propensity to see patterns not in evidence, especially if they compliment his ego. Practically irresistible to the oh so smart primate.



I think the term for that is _Confirmation Bias
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias


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## Big P (Dec 28, 2009)

holy shit, i think i just realized why god lets people die

without death nobody would need him anymore




so thats the reason jesus? thats why you allow us all to suffer an do nothing to stop it?


god damn it jesus!!! i was was gonna say oh jeez but


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## thablacksheep (Dec 28, 2009)

By all means don't go there looking to question anything... OK

I went anyway and it reads like this all the way through:

Jesus has a J in it in our language, and the letter J represents the letter T in Klingon, which means lord or "lord of the rings", and lord begins with the letter l which if translated back from english to greek to myan then back to greek and then into ancient aramaic shows jesus crist existed because the klingons support the christ in all of us because we can all be lord.

Get it? Need the Hippie decoder ring...


Read the whole thing and then respond. The objective of sharing was for someone to read the whole thing or not read at all. it was an invite. I'm sure that if we have the time to smoke and explore the mind and the sensations of the being that we could surely read a good 5 minutes worth of material.


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## morgentaler (Dec 28, 2009)

thablacksheep said:


> Read the whole thing and then respond. The objective of sharing was for someone to read the whole thing or not read at all. it was an invite. I'm sure that if we have the time to smoke and explore the mind and the sensations of the being that we could surely read a good 5 minutes worth of material.


That's like handing someone dried cow dung and saying "Enjoy this delicious cookie."
Then when they say "This tastes like shit!" telling them that they must eat the whole cookie before voicing an opinion.


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## morgentaler (Dec 28, 2009)

By the way, I absolutely loved the nonsense about how the sun and seasons work.
And the gibberish about Santa Claus was just priceless.
Santa Clause is based on Sinter Klaas. Feel free to google that.

This is just another one of those publications that throws around a bunch of "high concept" babble which has no real informational value, throws a mix of falsehoods and misrepresentations together, and tries to format it so it sounds intellectual to the uneducated so they can feel like they've discovered some great secret to tell their friends when they manage to memorize one of the concepts.

Jesus has 5 letters. So does Fraud.
Christianity has 12 letters. So does Motherfucker.
YHWH has 4 letters. So does DICK.

I see the pattern!


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## rookie 420 (Dec 29, 2009)

Still sticking with my theory that religion was designed strictly to help govern society. It was a great idea, look, they got us all thinking of what it might be. It's the power of human curiosity still driving people insane over the concept of a higher divinity.


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## morgentaler (Dec 29, 2009)

I'd agree with it being an effective method of control. One of the first shamans probably looked at the way everyone got jumpy when something moved in the darkness, and realized that he could manipulate them by lying about it.
As soon as man learned how to lie he invented religion.

A great idea? Not really. It's a very effective method of exploiting people and manipulating them to your own ends but it doesn't make them better people. Compare the rates of religious vs. atheist inmates for example.

If you want to get rich and have a knack for public speaking, you have two options to get rich quick. Self Help seminars or Sell Jesus seminars. Either one will bring the money rolling in.


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## rookie 420 (Dec 29, 2009)

I believe that balance must be in effect in all instances. Although most inmates claim religion, it is just a means to an end. Ofcourse hardened criminals are going to claim some spiritual awakening, its their framework for release. I said that it was a great idea because there is no easier way to persuade human action. This persuausion is the reason for many of societies advances in many aspects. For what religion was designed to do it has done an exceptional job, think of it as a tool.


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## morgentaler (Dec 29, 2009)

rookie 420 said:


> For what religion was designed to do it has done an exceptional job, think of it as a tool.


Control, kill, and rape entire populations.
Yes, it does indeed


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## rookie 420 (Dec 29, 2009)

I agree the plan backfired, religious controversy and all. Every war that I have ever studied, religion was rooted deeply in the bowels of the disagreement. All I'm saying is that it is incredible how many people have bought into it, past and present. Who ever invented religion achieved mass belief, which ultimately was their goal.


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## morgentaler (Dec 29, 2009)

rookie 420 said:


> I agree the plan backfired, religious controversy and all. Every war that I have ever studied, religion was rooted deeply in the bowels of the disagreement. All I'm saying is that it is incredible how many people have bought into it, past and present. Who ever invented religion achieved mass belief, which ultimately was their goal.


It's simple. People are lazy.
If you give a lazy person a choice between understanding the molecular interaction between viruses and cells, or the option to just say "demons make people sick", guess which one they'll chose.
It takes seconds to understand the concept of demon. You can indoctrinate it into a child effortlessly. It takes much more work to educate someone in reality.


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## rookie 420 (Dec 29, 2009)

So while the thread discusses atheism, openly expressing the opinion of non belief, do you think that atheism is a faith? Would you place it congruent with a missionary faith, since believers of a higher divinity are being educated in this thread?


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## morgentaler (Dec 29, 2009)

Is not believing in unicorns or gremlins a faith?
No.

Atheism is just the application of common sense regarding imaginary, supernatural creations.


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## rookie 420 (Dec 29, 2009)

Believing that something is not true is a faith, your faith lies in the fact that there is no higher divinity. What is your opinion on the origin of man (Darwin Theory)?


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## PadawanBater (Dec 29, 2009)

rookie 420 said:


> Believing that something is not true is a faith, your faith lies in the fact that there is no higher divinity. What is your opinion on the origin of man (Darwin Theory)?


It's not "I believe God is not real", it's "God has not been shown to be real, so I cannot believe in it". 

Just like morgen said, being an atheist is the default position to hold, you're an atheist to Thor, Zeus, etc... does it take any faith on your part at all to _not believe_ they exist? Why not? Apply that same logic to the Aberhamic God, and there ya go.

Darwins theory is evolution, which isn't the origin of man. Evolution is common descent with modification. The origin of life is a-biogenesis. 

Evolution is a fact. A-biogenesis is a well supported theory.


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## CrackerJax (Dec 29, 2009)

rookie 420 said:


> Believing that something is not true is a faith, your faith lies in the fact that there is no higher divinity. What is your opinion on the origin of man (Darwin Theory)?



I Believe that the earth isn't flat. Is that a faith? 

Think it through ... take ur time.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 29, 2009)

We choose to believe in Higher Powers of our own understanding even if we cannot yet fully define them.



PadawanBater said:


> It's not "I believe God is not real", it's "God has not been shown to be real, so I cannot believe in it".
> 
> Just like morgen said, being an atheist is the default position to hold, you're an atheist to Thor, Zeus, etc... does it take any faith on your part at all to _not believe_ they exist? Why not? Apply that same logic to the Aberhamic God, and there ya go.
> 
> ...


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## morgentaler (Dec 29, 2009)

rookie 420 said:


> Believing that something is not true is a faith, your faith lies in the fact that there is no higher divinity. What is your opinion on the origin of man (Darwin Theory)?


Darwin's Theory is actually the Origin of Species via Natural Selection, not just man.

In fact when people bring up Darwin coming up with the idea of evolution, and him just being one man, they're wrong. He didn't. Darwin's work was on the mechanism up evolution. The concept of evolution had existed for hundreds of years, with observations of change in animals going back to the time of the Roman Empire. Darwin just explained how it happened.

It just so happened that he was (mostly) right. He didn't have the information and technology we have today so he made a few errors, but his overall theory and documents were surprisingly insightful.

His theory has been backed up by biological, geological, physical, and many other sciences... even math and computer, via long term simulations of point mutation.

The discovery of DNA was the coup de grace. DNA is not just an unchanging string of data. It is a journal of evolution, with visible edits that can be tracked across editions (species). 

There are retroviruses which modify the genetic code of their hosts in specific manners and you can see those modifications in the DNA of branching species. Each edit aligning itself to a specific branch you can follow the lineage of a species back to it's divergence from another.

Of course if all that science is just a conspiracy against Jesus, then all the advances in gene therapy and manipulation is a myth, vaccines don't really exist, and elephants are just mammoths with alopecia.


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## morgentaler (Dec 29, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> Evolution is a fact. A-biogenesis is a well supported theory.


I think it's safe to say that most liars for Jesus don't understand that Evolution, whether you're a Darwinian, Lamarckian, etc. is just change over time.

They don't get that a perfect example of evolution is the average of 150 mutations in male humans each generation.

Or how a gene (or genes) may express itself differently because another gene far away on the helix has changed state due to one of those mutations.

Of course some of them do understand, but realize there's a lot of money to be made off the ones that don't. That's why we have shining examples like the unimpeachable Kent Hovind... sitting in a prison cell. It must be an atheist conspiracy.


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## CrackerJax (Dec 29, 2009)

Churchers fall into several categories.

manipulators
social networkers
sheep


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## mindphuk (Dec 29, 2009)

We all begin with baseline assumptions about the world we live in and see. We don't believe in the existence of absolutely anything, we assume only the things that we have evidence for exist. I don't think that invisible pink unicorns live the clouds unless someone suggests it first. Why assume in a magical being that creates the universe and all life as a baseline assumption? Occam's Razor tells us that things appear to follow certain natural laws. Physics has them, chemistry has them. Biology is just chemistry with carbon based material so the razor cuts toward a naturalistic explanation for the beginning of life (and the universe) as most likely lacking any other evidence. We have strong knowledge of the chemistry of hormones and how fertilized ova form fully functioning beings. Why assume an invisible, all-powerful being controls the other stuff we don't understand? Only religion and pre-science superstition allows for that kind of thought. 

There are too many people that think that belief in an invisible being should be the default position and anyone that disagrees must prove non-existence. These are the same folks that claim lack of belief is a religion or faith, they cannot grasp the concept that some people out here would like some evidence in something before they decide to accept it. 
If nothing is evidence, then everything is evidence.


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## mindphuk (Dec 29, 2009)

rookie 420 said:


> Believing that something is not true is a faith, your faith lies in the fact that there is no higher divinity. What is your opinion on the origin of man (Darwin Theory)?


Evolution is not a belief system or an opinion. It is what empirically we know about how life got to be complex. No one says we know everything about it. We do know that all life forms did not magically appear at one point in history so that leaves out certain mythologies, including the Christian one (only of course if you accept Genesis literally). We do know that all life is related and can be placed in a branching hierarchy along with many extinct lifeforms that we find in fossils and that each extant form came from earlier forms with many diverse groups having common ancestors that can be traced all of the way back to some of the earliest single cell lifeforms. 

This isn't another mythology that someone came up with, this is what we find when we look with the tool of science. It is just as real as the knowledge about distance supernovas and the weirdness we find in the subatomic level. It is the basis for all of biology as all biology is evolutionary biology. You cannot teach biology without evolution anymore than you can teach chemistry without atomic theory. Anyone that attempts to say there is an alternate theory must be able to explain everything that evolution explains so well with each new discovery including the explosion of evidence that came after the genetic code was deciphered. 

No scientist _believes _in evolution as the religious believe in their deities. We accept evolution as the best, most consistent model that we have. We don't want to believe evolution is true, we _have _to believe evolution is true. Nothing else makes as much sense.


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## CrackerJax (Dec 29, 2009)

Well put. 

Science is not in love with evolution, it's just the best explanation. If something else comes along that is a better fit, and is verifiable to a greater accuracy, then IT will be adopted.

So if aliens show up with a mightier version of a G*D, will the religious submit to the new and improved master? 

No, Then you'd hear them all screaming for the very same proof we ask of them right now


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## woodds (Dec 29, 2009)

I believe that religion at this point makes far more since then science as far as how everything got here.Science will never explain how nothing became how it is today. Im sorry but A greater power just makes more since no matter how silly a religion might sound. Every single theory out there all comes back to that one ? which will never be answered by science.Also the thing about a religion such as Judaism it is far more different than other religions. Earlier in this thread someone said that of course an ancient that was frightened would turn to the stars as something to worship,,,,,something they could not understand. But being a Jew would be worshiping a greater power which is unseen.


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## Big P (Dec 29, 2009)

but you answer nothing buy saying theres a higher power that created everything


thats not an answer its a trick answer, but you never really answerd the real question


because, who created your higher power which you say created all this we see today?


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## CrackerJax (Dec 29, 2009)

Everything points to a pattern of simple to complex.

A G*D being existing before the simple violates that pattern.


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## morgentaler (Dec 29, 2009)

woodds said:


> I believe that religion at this point makes far more since then science as far as how everything got here.Science will never explain how nothing became how it is today. Im sorry but A greater power just makes more since no matter how silly a religion might sound. Every single theory out there all comes back to that one ? which will never be answered by science.Also the thing about a religion such as Judaism it is far more different than other religions. Earlier in this thread someone said that of course an ancient that was frightened would turn to the stars as something to worship,,,,,something they could not understand. But being a Jew would be worshiping a greater power which is unseen.


Religion will not explain it any more than if I say the universe was created in a tin pot by a hunchback with a urinary infection.

First off you're making some pretty ignorant assumptions.

You say "nothing" became what it is today. You make an assumption that there *was* nothing. You don't know that was ever the case. You just assume that because mundane objects in your life have a beginning and an end in one state that they come from nothing as well. Before you start claiming religion will show how the universe came from "nothing", you might want to prove that "nothing".

You say science will never explain it. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. But you're a bit overconfident in your statement. In the same way that people said science will never prove the earth orbits the sun. Or that man will never make a vehicle that flies. You're a little to eager to throw yourself in with those failures who decry the quest for knowledge.

Not sure what point you're trying to make about Judaism. You don't actually seem to say anything. Judaism just didn't magically appear one day with a magic book filled with rules (contrary to what those three abrahamic religions want you to buy into). Religions evolved from those religions which came before them. Yes, evolved. In the same way that the Protestants came into being because one rich and powerful leader wanted to change some things about his religion to suit his own lifestyle.

The great irony of the bible and the people that worship it is that they might as well go to church on sunday and chant "purple monkey dishwasher" over and over, because that 'telephone game' of time, power hungry leaders, and corruption have them worshipping something as different from the original as we are from our cousins the Bonobos.


Religion has the answers to the universe. Right. Don't make me vomit.


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## dr.skunkfunk (Dec 29, 2009)

ooooowe praise magick jeezuz....

its dracula fucking mrs santa claus while sucking the blood of rudolph the red nose rain deer who is riding on a wild boar wearing a eagle for a hat screamin hells bells santa is coming for you.merry crustmas pass me a bong hit ...... i magine the was no religion no war ... ya know the song ........blah blah blah awesomer than hell


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## Big P (Dec 29, 2009)




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## mindphuk (Dec 29, 2009)

woodds said:


> I believe that religion at this point makes far more since then science as far as how everything got here.Science will never explain how nothing became how it is today. Im sorry but A greater power just makes more since no matter how silly a religion might sound. Every single theory out there all comes back to that one ? which will never be answered by science.Also the thing about a religion such as Judaism it is far more different than other religions. Earlier in this thread someone said that of course an ancient that was frightened would turn to the stars as something to worship,,,,,something they could not understand. But being a Jew would be worshiping a greater power which is unseen.


[youtube]7ImvlS8PLIo&fmt=18[/youtube]


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## morgentaler (Dec 29, 2009)

It's a great video 

WARNING! Requires thought. Do not ingest if allergic to critical thinking!


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## rookie 420 (Dec 29, 2009)

Let us remind ourselves that our greatest forefathers had deeply rooted religious beliefs and practices. Look at it from both sides instead of completely dismissing the possitive attributes that religion possesses. To not agree that both points of view have possitive applications is just ignorant. You don't think that "Thou Shall Not Kill" has saved any lives, or are you saying it has cost more than it has saved?


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## mindphuk (Dec 29, 2009)

rookie 420 said:


> Let us remind ourselves that our greatest forefathers had deeply rooted religious beliefs and practices. Look at it from both sides instead of completely dismissing the possitive attributes that religion possesses. To not agree that both points of view have possitive applications is just ignorant. You don't think that "Thou Shall Not Kill" has saved any lives, or are you saying it has cost more than it has saved?


First of all, the commandment is 'You will not murder,' not kill. Second of all, just because it is considered a biblical law doesn't mean it originated with the bible or religion. Do you think the Ionians, Egyptians and other pre-biblical cultures, including pre-Exodus Hebrews didn't have laws against murder and theft? Morality comes from culture, not religion. How many of the Ten Commandments coincide with our current laws? 

Which forefathers are you referring to? Do you know that many of the Founding Fathers of our country were not Christian? Their values and laws came from many sources including the Greek and Romans, The Code of Hammurabi, the Magna Carta, English Common Law. They were men of reason and of the Enlightenment. Some of these men may have been very spiritual and believed in a divine creator but not necessarily religious. 

Let's look at all of the positives that religion gives us: The Inquisition, The Crusades, witch hunts decimating the populations of many towns across Europe, the Thirty Years War; Muslims vs everyone in Afghanistan, India, Indonesia, Kashmir, Macedonia, Thailand, Cyprus, etc.; Catholics vs. Protestants in Northern Ireland, Rwanda genocides, the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, The Buddhists vs. Hindus in Sri Lanka, Suni vs. Shi'ite Muslims everywhere, Sudanese civil war, Everyone against Israel... need I go on? 

Please, tell me the positive attributes of religion that balances out all of the killing in the name of religion.


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## PadawanBater (Dec 29, 2009)

rookie 420 said:


> Let us remind ourselves that our greatest forefathers had deeply rooted religious beliefs and practices. Look at it from both sides instead of completely dismissing the possitive attributes that religion possesses. To not agree that both points of view have possitive applications is just ignorant. You don't think that "Thou Shall Not Kill" has saved any lives, or are you saying it has cost more than it has saved?


 
"Thou Shall Not Kill" is derived from our sense of empathy.

Give me *one thing *religion is *required* to have. In other words, one thing you cannot get without believing in some kind of religion? 

Most believers claim it's morality - one cannot be moral without believing in God... don't be like most believers.


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## mindphuk (Dec 29, 2009)

PadawanBater said:


> "Thou Shall Not Kill" is derived from our sense of empathy.
> 
> Give me *one thing *religion is *required* to have. In other words, one thing you cannot get without believing in some kind of religion?
> 
> Most believers claim it's morality - one cannot be moral without believing in God... don't be like most believers.


Not just empathy but there is an evolutionary advantage to living in a peaceful and cooperative society. Piranha don't eat each other during a feeding frenzy, I guess they have a bible with a moral code too. LOL


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## CrackerJax (Dec 29, 2009)

The archaeological findings of the past suggests that WAR started once we became a agriculturally based society. 

When man was strictly a hunter gatherer species, war was unknown.

Farming kills.


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## Big P (Dec 29, 2009)

mindphuk said:


> Not just empathy but there is an evolutionary advantage to living in a peaceful and cooperative society. Piranha don't eat each other during a feeding frenzy, I guess they have a bible with a moral code too. LOL


 

did you guys know that in more violent societies there are more left handed people per capita than in less violent societies


i did some research cuz i be left handed and turns out since so many peeps are right handed that we lefties have a higher survivabilty in a battle to the death


i guess righties are more apt at fighting other right handed people while left handed people know how to fight both cuz they are also surounded by righties


anyway your post reminded me of this while i was reading it and smoking some fresh finger hash


thats right just had a lil harvest festival boys chopped down 3 trees, 


anyway carry on


----------



## tebor (Dec 29, 2009)

Big P said:


>


I wouldn't consider the Greeks of old weak-minded.
But the galaxy. one made me llaugh


----------



## tebor (Dec 29, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> The archaeological findings of the past suggests that WAR started once we became a agriculturally based society.
> 
> When man was strictly a hunter gatherer species, war was unknown.
> 
> Farming kills.


Thats the time that people started thinking of land as a possession.

[youtube]1wiRhVzsXFM[/youtube]


----------



## CrackerJax (Dec 29, 2009)

Exactly, hunter gatherers didn't need to war. war over what? Like fighting over raindrops, food was everywhere. But once the food was tied to specific locations ... BAM!! ... hostilities have been with us ever since.
*
Blame the vegetarians.... it's all their fault!!*


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## mindphuk (Dec 29, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Exactly, hunter gatherers didn't need to war. war over what? Like fighting over raindrops, food was everywhere. But once the food was tied to specific locations ... BAM!! ... hostilities have been with us ever since.
> *
> Blame the vegetarians.... it's all their fault!!*


Is there evidence for this? I wouldn't say war, since hunter-gatherer tribes were too small to be considered armies, but I would consider that some would attack other tribes and steal their freshly killed prey. 
I do know that the ice age forced many groups to move south toward the sea and adapt by learning to fish. South Africa has some really nice finds in caves there.


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## morgentaler (Dec 30, 2009)

tebor said:


> I wouldn't consider the Greeks of old weak-minded.
> But the galaxy. one made me llaugh


The people you would consider historically great greeks weren't necessarily believers either.

Atheism is not new 

The Roman Seneca the Younger had some really great things to say about religion. Namely that it was a big scam for controlling the people  And the Romans looked to the greeks for philosophy, intellectual pursuits, and religious influence.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 30, 2009)

Historically great Greeks did not believe in Zeus?

How does trusting a higher power of our own understanding weaken our minds?

We believe that if anything, our attempts at understanding our spiritual nature and limits of knowledge enhance our minds much more than merely dismissing the spiritual portion of humansity merely because one does not believe in things they cannot see.

I believe what I feel.


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## morgentaler (Dec 30, 2009)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> Historically great Greeks did not believe in gods?


I wish you'd actually take part in conversations instead of doing that sad "I must pose everything I say as a question" or the 'We believe' followed by nonsense.

Anyway, if you read what I said it can't be assumed that every Greek intellectual believed in Zeus as a counter to the weak minded claim.


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## PadawanBater (Dec 30, 2009)

morgentaler said:


> I wish you'd actually take part in conversations instead of doing that sad "I must pose everything I say as a question" or the 'We believe' followed by nonsense.
> 
> Anyway, if you read what I said it can't be assumed that every Greek intellectual believed in Zeus as a counter to the weak minded claim.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 30, 2009)

My higher power is just that.
Not omnipotent
Not malevolent


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## morgentaler (Dec 30, 2009)

It doesn't matter if your gods make universes or cookies.
Imaginary is imaginary.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 30, 2009)

Are you seeking cookies or running away from something more universal?
IT is sort of like the rest of yin and yang around here.
Do you imbibe because you seek something good, or are you running away from something else?

To Us, spirituality is innately human.

IT would take effort to expel them all, once you are aware they are everywhere.

Spirits must reside in the realm of belief because how can you tell if they look like flying spaghetti monsters or whatever else they may dream to be?


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## Big P (Dec 30, 2009)

these are the only spirits i fuck with


















i told my duaghter the other day that the tooth fairy wasnt real cuz she couldnt understand where she comes from and kept asking me questions about if she is really real.

so finally i was like no she is fake its really me and mommy who put the money under the pillow lol

She was down with the truth. no one likes to be lied to specially to the point of brain washing


but she goes to like this chruch daycare where they always teach her about jesus and i tell her that some people believe in jesus but that i dont and that there is no proof there is a god lol

my mom wasnt happy about that but what am i supposed to do lie to the kid and make her have an unrealistic view of the world?

you know all those idiots who blow themselves up, or fight as insurgents

they are told and truly believe they have no control over thier own lives and that god will take them when he sees fit either way

so they use that as the excuse that they do not control thier own lives or death which makes them fearless.

and then makes them dead


but i dont want my daughter praying and begging to somthign that isnt there, i would rather have her pull herself up by her boot straps and realize you must solve your own problems 

because if god does exist for some reason he aint helping us anyway so why bother with him

he wanna burn us in hell over it then hes a little bitch in my opinion



i know some very inteligetn people who cant get over this brain washing they have been through as a child,

so these inteligent people seem so stupid in that department but indoctranation can never be under estimated


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 30, 2009)

Desperation sucks 
especially for the innocents.



Big P said:


> you know all those idiots who blow themselves up, or fight as insurgents
> 
> they are told and truly believe they have no control over thier own lives and that god will take them when he sees fit either way
> 
> ...


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## morgentaler (Dec 30, 2009)

Once you relieve a person of accountability they are capable of the foulest crimes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

edit: and more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment


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## CrackerJax (Dec 30, 2009)

Now ur girl will know that the little voice in her head ... is her.

Progress she will enjoy.


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## BigTitLvr (Dec 30, 2009)

andersbranderud said:


> Scientists have always inferred the origin of the universe by reversing the observed state of the universe. At first, the universe was thought to be static. Thus, science held that the universe simply "always was." Then scientists theorized that gravity must cause the universe to shrink. Thus, science changed its mind, inventing the "Big Bang" Theory. It wasn't until 1998 that astronomers discovered that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Reversing an accelerating expansion to see back in time produces a universe that shrinks at a decelerating rate as one goes back in time to its origin. Follow this process to its ultimate and the rate of shrinkage reduces to converge with timespace where both are zero. That is, both shrinkage and timespace stop at timespace=0. Thus, timespace has a beginning.
> 
> From timespace=0, scientists hold that nothing in the universe magically "popped in" with no cause. It is a fundamental law of physics that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
> The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo; i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace. In contrast to endless opinionating of innumerable pseudo-scientific religionists, science recognizes the necessity of a Prime Cause ex nihilo
> ...



What you have presented here is called anecdotal evidence. It is a thought experiment, that is all. Nothing in these paragraphs is at all "Proof". Real proof comes from _reproducible_ experiments. 

I want you, and any believers, to think about this next statement very closely: *If ANY one religion had ANY one bit of proof that their god exists and did ANY of the things they say he did - there would be only ONE religion on the planet.* 

Religion is called 'faith' precisely because none can offer any real proof of anything. Accepting that honestly will actually strengthen your faith for you will see what it really is. It will also aid in your tolerance of other people religions. It will also prevent you from posting these absurd threads about 'proof' of your god.


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## CrackerJax (Dec 30, 2009)

mindphuk said:


> Is there evidence for this? I wouldn't say war, since hunter-gatherer tribes were too small to be considered armies, but I would consider that some would attack other tribes and steal their freshly killed prey.
> I do know that the ice age forced many groups to move south toward the sea and adapt by learning to fish. South Africa has some really nice finds in caves there.


From what I have read so far, which is quite a bit, scientists cannot find signs of warfare past the beginning of actual farming. 

They believe that land ownership was unheard of or not enforced before ppl set down roots. 

That first fence must have been a doosey....


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Dec 30, 2009)

"From what I have read so far, which is quite a bit, scientists cannot find signs of warfare past the beginning of actual farming"

If you don't mind my picking your brain, what were some of the earliest signs?

"I want you, and any believers, to think about this next statement very closely: *If ANY one religion had ANY one bit of proof that their god exists and did ANY of the things they say he did - there would be only ONE religion on the planet."

*Hallelujah!

That don't mean we can't make up shit to fill our knowledge gaps in the mean time.

I can imagine what dinosaurs smelled like.

IT helps to walk confidently knowing your stones are gonna fall in place just when they need to.


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## morgentaler (Dec 30, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> From what I have read so far, which is quite a bit, scientists cannot find signs of warfare past the beginning of actual farming.
> 
> They believe that land ownership was unheard of or not enforced before ppl set down roots.
> 
> That first fence must have been a doosey....


For clarity, before people start calling you bad names, when you use the term warfare you refer to organized, ongoing conflict, correct?

And not to skirmishes over opportunistic kills, etc. between family groups.


One of my friends is native and takes anthropology and aboriginal history courses, and he was telling me that in some cultures there is no concept for rape. Without the puritanism and sexual repression that creates that kind of person its practically unheard of.

An interesting idea.


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## CrackerJax (Dec 30, 2009)

Yes, absolutely. No organized warfare. So far they can't find skeletal remains that indicate war wounds. 
After the agricultural phase of our histrory, the fossil remains are rife with evidence. Like out of nowhere....

vegetables are killing us all!


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## Big P (Dec 30, 2009)

i could see myself killing sombody for a ham bone if i was hungry


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## CrackerJax (Dec 30, 2009)

Picture a fertile and abundant river delta plain.

Hunter gatherer mode - a dozen tribes spread out and passing through with plenty to forage.

Ag mode - 1 tribe claims the delta and protects it from the rest.

The first war begins.

The American indians are a fair modern example. They sold us Manhattan because they had no concept of land ownership. They were hunter gatherers and followed the game. they didn't sit on land, and they never thought they "owned" it.


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## WelcomeToTheWest (Jan 2, 2010)

Hi! 

This was weird, but I was looking up Christopher Hitchen's videos on Google and this forum came up. I read what the original poster had said on &#8220;Prime Cause ex nihilo &#8220; and contest that scientists need it in order to sustain that a &#8220;perfectly ordered universe.&#8221; I would never use the word &#8220;perfect&#8221; for anything tangible. It usually leads to fallacy.
Space is anything but perfect. Just ask Neil:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_nqySMvkcw

Listen to an astrophysicist's perspective &#8211; space has no order. Why is it not applicable that there is a &#8220;chance&#8221; that our sun and planets were formed through the nebular hypothesis ? A perfect creator designed a perfect universe? There is nothing perfect about it. Look to our Jovian planets &#8211; Jupiter, Uranus, Neptune, Saturn. Why aren't these planets burning hydrogen like our sun does? Why create failed solar systems? Why kill 90% of the life that has lived on this planet?

Where is a creator's omnipotence? The only conclusion that I can find in this is that _if _there is a &#8220;creator&#8221; then he isn't omnipotent, but rather a tinkerer. One who does not know what it's doing. That or God is a sadist. What's the point of giving a child bone marrow cancer? If that's a part of God's plan, then he must be a sadist. Either way, why would anyone want to be a part of this system.......


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## WelcomeToTheWest (Jan 2, 2010)

On that note I also want to say believing in a creator is a lot like living in a totalitarian state. If you don't believe in the father, you will be burned in a lake of fire. You follow what the father says. If you don't you will be tossed into the lake. Where is the freedom? We need to drop this idea we made up over 3,000 years ago and get with the times.


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## PadawanBater (Jan 2, 2010)

WelcomeToTheWest said:


> On that note I also want to say believing in a creator is a lot like living in a totalitarian state. If you don't believe in the father, you will be burned in a lake of fire. You follow what the father says. If you don't you will be tossed into the lake. Where is the freedom? We need to drop this idea we made up over 3,000 years ago and get with the times.


 
Yep, I agree. Welcome to the forum WTTW. Do you smoke weed or did you just come along for the spirituality stuff on RIU?


----------



## morgentaler (Jan 2, 2010)

Cool. Maybe Hitchens will google himself, come here, and join the party.
That would be awesome.

Stephen Fry, Richard Dawkins, if you're googling, come on in!


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## morgentaler (Jan 2, 2010)

HA! I just heard a funny anecdote from my father that would make Stephen King's 'IT' have a high potential for existence if we were going by personal anecdotal evidence alone.
He had just seen the miniseries and was working in a lift station underground, and a helium balloon on a string came out of one of the pipes and bumped up against the screen beside him. He thought that was rather creepy.

Proof of IT? You decide!


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## PadawanBater (Jan 2, 2010)

morgentaler said:


> Cool. Maybe Hitchens will google himself, come here, and join the party.
> That would be awesome.
> 
> Stephen Fry, Richard Dawkins, if you're googling, come on in!


lol wouldn't that be some shit!

Do you think those guys toke up? (I know Sagan did!)


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## WelcomeToTheWest (Jan 2, 2010)

I've posted an introduction of myself. No, I do not smoke weed, but I am very supportive of the legalization. 

This should probably belong on another thread, but I will briefly address it here. I'm from Chicago, IL - a city that use to be one of the most corrupt cities in the U.S. during the 1920's and 1930's. I'm sure as you know we had an Italian gentleman by the name of Al Capone who ran the trafficking of alcohol to the U.S. from Canada. 

Since we have evidence that drinking alcohol is more dangerous then smoking marijuana (read reports by National Academy of Sciences, British Advisory Committee on Drug Dependence, etc.)Then why aren't we legalizing? Don't get me wrong, anything you put in your body will have a trade off. Multiple case studies however give the same congruent information, in that marijuana can't even be put into the same classes as Methamphetamine, Coke, PCP, Etc. and keeping it illegal will make the drug trades with Mexico worse. I can jump into many of these topics but again, it digresses from this thread.


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## WelcomeToTheWest (Jan 2, 2010)

PadawanBater said:


> lol wouldn't that be some shit!
> 
> Do you think those guys toke up? (I know Sagan did!)



I don't think Dawkins or Hitchens ever did. their intellect doesn't reflect that of Jeff Spicoli. I can see Hitchens being an alcoholic. Fry I can see smoking.


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## morgentaler (Jan 2, 2010)

Ha! I went looking for Hitchens on Marijuana and found this page:
http://atheistsdoitwithreason.com/tag/christopher-hitchens/

First video is a hoot.


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## mindphuk (Jan 2, 2010)

WelcomeToTheWest said:


> I've posted an introduction of myself. No, I do not smoke weed, but I am very supportive of the legalization.
> 
> This should probably belong on another thread, but I will briefly address it here. I'm from Chicago, IL - a city that use to be one of the most corrupt cities in the U.S. during the 1920's and 1930's. I'm sure as you know we had an Italian gentleman by the name of Al Capone who ran the trafficking of alcohol to the U.S. from Canada.
> 
> Since we have evidence that drinking alcohol is more dangerous then smoking marijuana (read reports by National Academy of Sciences, British Advisory Committee on Drug Dependence, etc.)Then why aren't we legalizing? Don't get me wrong, anything you put in your body will have a trade off. Multiple case studies however give the same congruent information, in that marijuana can't even be put into the same classes as Methamphetamine, Coke, PCP, Etc. and keeping it illegal will make the drug trades with Mexico worse. I can jump into many of these topics but again, it digresses from this thread.


Welcome to RIU.
We have other folks here that don't smoke but stay for the debates. One that I can think of is Medicine Man. Unfortunately, Med usually falls on the side of the woowoos. 

Isn't it interesting that in 1919 we required a constitutional amendment in order to ban a specific substance but the Controlled Substance Act somehow does away with that even though our Constitution is still the same? Not only that but now they can ban new substances administratively without an act of Congress. The personal cultivation and use where it isn't even sold and state lines are not crossed should never fall under any law that uses Commerce Clause as its basis for validity.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 3, 2010)

hehehe, I missed that little gem in his post....*Chicago, IL - a city that use to be one of the most corrupt cities in the U.S. during the 1920's and 1930's* 

_*USE TO BE *_ Uhhh, Have I got news for you.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 3, 2010)

"The personal cultivation and use where it isn't even sold and state lines are not crossed should never fall under any law that uses Commerce Clause as its basis for validity."

Thank god the feds aren't prosecuting the states!


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## WelcomeToTheWest (Jan 3, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> hehehe, I missed that little gem in his post....*Chicago, IL - a city that use to be one of the most corrupt cities in the U.S. during the 1920's and 1930's*
> 
> _*USE TO BE *_ Uhhh, Have I got news for you.



/sigh

I understand. Unfortunately, I belong to a state with a LONG history of corruption in the government. Out of the past 5 Governors, 1/2 of them have been prosecuted for some crime. It's pretty sad and yes, I believe Springfield, IL has some issues to work out. I can agree that IL is one of the worst states to incur corruption.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 3, 2010)

WelcomeToTheWest said:


> /sigh
> 
> I understand. Unfortunately, I belong to a state with a LONG history of corruption in the government. Out of the past 5 Governors, 1/2 of them have been prosecuted for some crime. It's pretty sad and yes, I believe Springfield, IL has some issues to work out. I can agree that IL is one of the worst states to incur corruption.


I was up in Chicago visiting after the Bush/Gore debacle and ppl at a party were giving me a hard time coming from Florida (we all know that's pure geographic jealousy ). 

I listened to all the complaints about hanging chads and recounts until finally I asked one very perky and insistent woman, if Illinois was the last state and the deciding factor, and Illinois was put under the voting microscope nationally, how do you think Illinois would look to the rest of the country?

Silence ...  She smiled and we all had a real good time that day.


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## morgentaler (Jan 3, 2010)

Heh. I would have brought up the corruption in the Illinois legal system that led to *at least* two dozen innocent people sitting on death row.

She probably wouldn't have smiled at that


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## CrackerJax (Jan 3, 2010)

She got the gist of that age old adage ... ppl that live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones. 

She was smart enough to retract her claws and we talked amicably for an hour.


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## rookie 420 (Jan 7, 2010)

Well actually more wars have been derived from land disputes than any other altercations combined. Religion is now an excuse for everything bad that has ever happened, Lincoln was Christian he abolished slavery. I just think it is an easy way out, instead of truly understanding religion as a whole and not just one sect. I mean where are all of the horror stories about Buddhism and Hinduism. I'm not saying that most religions are not far fetched, but the belief in a higher divinity is not impractical. Most of the documents that mindphuk rattled off were affected by religion and values that were biased by religious doctrine.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 7, 2010)

Horror stories about Buddhism? 

Please ... do tell.


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## mindphuk (Jan 7, 2010)

rookie 420 said:


> Well actually more wars have been derived from land disputes than any other altercations combined. Religion is now an excuse for everything bad that has ever happened, Lincoln was Christian he abolished slavery. I just think it is an easy way out, instead of truly understanding religion as a whole and not just one sect. I mean where are all of the horror stories about Buddhism and Hinduism. I'm not saying that most religions are not far fetched, but the belief in a higher divinity is not impractical. Most of the documents that mindphuk rattled off were affected by religion and values that were biased by religious doctrine.


Those documents I "rattled off" have nothing to do with religion, especially Christianity. 
You will have a hard time convincing anyone that our laws are based on Christianity when you actually read what those documents say.

BTW, just because someone in history was Christian, doesn't make his or her religion the reason for doing something. Lincoln talked a lot about saving the Nation but I don't recall him ever giving Jesus the credit for the reason he wanted to end slavery.


----------



## CrackerJax (Jan 7, 2010)

Well, the real truth about Lincoln is not well known. 

Lincoln wanted to round up all the slaves and send them to Honduras. Now John Wilkes Booth was really on the side of the slaves and he knew that he had to kill Lincoln so the slaves could stay and be truly free. 
After Booth shot Lincoln, the jig was up on Honduras and Booth got his way. The ppl in power knew Booth did the right thing, but he had just shot the President so they vilified him with a wink. These same ppl had to make Booth the bad guy, but they knew it was Lincoln who was the danger. It had come to light that once Lincoln knew the northern army would be eventually victorious, he started buying up vast tracks of land in Honduras under an alias. Lincoln was going to create a super sized plantation and then generate a lucrative breeding program.

If it wasn't for Booth, that all would have happened. It was the descendants of the same ppl (whom I cannot name for fear of my safety), who pulled off the 9/11 conspiracy as well.

It all ties in together.


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## 2much (Jan 7, 2010)

well, who ever created this mess needs to get over here and clean it up! mother fucker


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## Shrubs First (Jan 7, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> BTW, just because someone in history was Christian, doesn't make his or her religion the reason for doing something. Lincoln talked a lot about saving the Nation but I don't recall him ever giving Jesus the credit for the reason he wanted to end slavery.


Back in the dark ages and roman times it did. You only lived and breathed if you
were the same religion as the people around you, does that not base every 
decision they made on religion?


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## WelcomeToTheWest (Jan 7, 2010)

rookie 420 said:


> Well actually more wars have been derived from land disputes than any other altercations combined. Religion is now an excuse for everything bad that has ever happened, Lincoln was Christian he abolished slavery. I just think it is an easy way out, instead of truly understanding religion as a whole and not just one sect. I mean where are all of the horror stories about Buddhism and Hinduism. I'm not saying that most religions are not far fetched, but the belief in a higher divinity is not impractical. Most of the documents that mindphuk rattled off were affected by religion and values that were biased by religious doctrine.



There is a fond difference between happens to be and did for a purpose. Did Lincoln free the slaves for religious purposes or did he free them and happen to be Christian?

Stalin was an atheist, but he didn't do the things he did because he was an atheist. He did them because he wanted to. He just "happens to be" an atheist.

But, I'm sorry butters, Lincoln was at best a Deist. Lincoln once said, "The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

But I digress. Are we still fighting over land today? Is that the reason why 2 planes were flown into the World Trade Center?


----------



## WelcomeToTheWest (Jan 7, 2010)

2much said:


> well, who ever created this mess needs to get over here and clean it up! mother fucker


I want to give insight from a very famous and one of my favorite astrophysicists, Neil DeGrasse: 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_nqySMvkcw


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## mindphuk (Jan 7, 2010)

Shrubs First said:


> Back in the dark ages and roman times it did. You only lived and breathed if you
> were the same religion as the people around you, does that not base every
> decision they made on religion?


What the fuck are you trying to say? Of course not every decision was based on religion.


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## rookie 420 (Jan 7, 2010)

There are extremist in every organization including religion. Atheism is the lack of an explanation at best.


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## Sure Shot (Jan 7, 2010)

rookie 420 said:


> Atheism is the lack of an explanation at best.




Religion is a fairytale full of murderous jealousy, at best.


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## Shrubs First (Jan 7, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> What the fuck are you trying to say? Of course not every decision was based on religion.


I'm telling you that RELIGION was taken more seriously than life itself, people GIVE 
their lives for that shit, the spanierds raped and stole gold and land in the name
of religion, israel and pakistan have been having a war since before
the countries were formed, you have no idea the ridiculous acts which have been
carried out in the name of religion


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## rookie 420 (Jan 8, 2010)

In the era and the countries you are reffering to (even presently), there was a sole ruler that had misinterpreted the text. With the influence of rulers and powers they possess it is easy to missuse religion in their favor. This misinterpretation obviously has a snowballing effect, some cultures have not learned the proper influences of religion as some cultures have. Churches have outreach programs, fundraisers for charitable orginizations, and provides a person with somewhere to go when no one will take them.


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## morgentaler (Jan 8, 2010)

rookie 420 said:


> There are extremist in every organization including religion. Atheism is the lack of an explanation at best.


Not having the answers to everything is better than making them up.

It's better to strive for knowledge than bow to ignorance.


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## morgentaler (Jan 8, 2010)

rookie 420 said:


> In the era and the countries you are reffering to (even presently), there was a sole ruler that had misinterpreted the text.


And where ever you go, people swear THEY have the right interpretation and all the others are wrong.

Occam's Razor solves that little dilemma quite efficiently.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 8, 2010)

"Not having the answers to everything is better than making them up.

It's better to strive for knowledge than bow to ignorance"

Hallelujah


----------



## rookie 420 (Jan 8, 2010)

My only point was that Religion is not all bad, regardless if the text is fictional or factual, possitive things can be learned from it. Historians love to study religion because of its illustrious display of cultural differences, changes in rulers, and further understanding specific societies. I remember many fictional stories from my youth that had underlying values, some that I still use today.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 8, 2010)

Religion has very little potential within its doctrines. There's nothing new in it at all.


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## morgentaler (Jan 8, 2010)

rookie 420 said:


> My only point was that Religion is not all bad, regardless if the text is fictional or factual, possitive things can be learned from it. Historians love to study religion because of its illustrious display of cultural differences, changes in rulers, and further understanding specific societies. I remember many fictional stories from my youth that had underlying values, some that I still use today.


That I can totally agree with. You can learn things that will benefit you and others from all kinds of texts. Including religious ones.

But as long as they're in the religious context and not the literary, people use them for justification for all kinds of actions under the guise of being a good (insert religion here).

"Do unto others"... good shit.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"... bad shit.


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## morgentaler (Jan 8, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> Religion has very little potential within its doctrines. There's nothing new in it at all.


Heh, and I can agree with that too! 

All the good stuff can be found by common sense alone.

But for those lacking, a nudge in the right direction could help.

The problem is who is nudging, and what the motivation is.


----------



## rookie 420 (Jan 8, 2010)

I am actually athiest myself, I just try to see the field from both sides. Many athiest, including myself, get caught up in religion bashing and forget the very few possitive aspects of religion. To truely be intellectually sound you must be willing to fairly weigh the pros and cons unbiased from your preference, this allows learning and understanding to be evident in all scenarios.


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## morgentaler (Jan 9, 2010)

The crucial point: when anyone considers religion to be any more "true" than Aesop's fables, they cease to gain anything from the experience. It becomes a net loss, selling oneself to religion for the promise of a magical life after death.


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## rookie 420 (Jan 9, 2010)

That is absolutely true. I'm not denying the existence of some reliquary figures, but I do totally dismiss any basis for literal fact in over 99% of the religious text that I have studied.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 9, 2010)

leeny said:


> FISH! I think you could answer this so I'm bring my question back up... who created the intelligent creator????? geeze I really just want an answer from a religious person


*..........*


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## Sparky4u (Jan 9, 2010)

Athiests:
Do any believe in hauntings or even a metaphysical existence?

Define what a ghost is? 

Where does it (they) reside and why? Please provide your scholarly well-boundaried scientific studies here... 

Those who say "no" are not very well in tune with their surroundings; regardless of who or what they do or do not want to beleive(insert your chosen (non)religion here). 

Your ears are so full of themselves, they cannot hear anything that is trying to be communicated to them. 

Does a bear shit in the woods? Not if I dont see him do it...

Atheists dont beleive in anything but themselves; which makes life harder for the rest of us.

Men have twisted religions into a ball of shit, it is an attempt to define what cannot be accurately defined. 

"Man" has created every word we currently use to associate all things we know, does this mean that this is all that exists? 
If a distant planet in another galaxy has its own ppl and language indigenous like, but we are unaware of it, does it not exist?

Understand this, ANY words used will create potentially unintentional boundaries, thus beginning interpretational errors, and its all fucking downhill from there.

Religion helps people find appreciation for the fact they exist, and can be grateful for it, often providing a healthy structured life to billions of people. 
Some take this measure to an extreme which isnt healthy or accurate. Balance of all things is key. Shitty people can have any name, and come from any religion, inacurate interpretations they define lead them down more selfish paths.

Now, who wants a non physical visit? 
Of course, it wont actually exist if your an athiest?


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

Ghosts exist in the human mind. Nowhere else.


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## Sparky4u (Jan 9, 2010)

Then why have they been consistently recorded in both audio and video/camera footages?


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 9, 2010)

We feel them.


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## Stoney McFried (Jan 9, 2010)

I don't think any of us are saying we're 100 percent certain there is nothing out there.We're just saying none of the religious choices available currently are anything more than hooey.Speaking personally, if there is a god,(as he is defined by many mainstream faiths)who created the universe, then he is either not omnipotent,because he cannot end the suffering of his children he is supposed to love,or he is cruel, because he will not.(Paraphrasing Crackerjax there.) If he is not omnipotent,then he is not a god.If he is omnipotent, but unwilling to help his children,then he is uncaring or malicious and I wouldn't worship him anyway.

As for ghosts,there very well could be entities we call ghosts....but there is NO concrete,irrefutable evidence of their existence.And even if they do exist, it doesn't necessarily mean they're supernatural in nature.....they could be multidimensional beings,energy or electromagnetic fluctuations,a trick of the mind,or even the projection of an extremely powerful mind that has accidentally or deliberately found a way to do things "above normal"...though there is no irrefutable proof of any of that, either.

And the appreciation of existance really depends upon the individual you're referring to.Sure, life can be a beautiful thing, but it can be pretty fucking ugly,too. You need only to observe the natural processes of our own planet and its denizens to appreciate both sides of THAT coin...no faith necessary.


Sparky4u said:


> Athiests:
> Do any believe in hauntings or even a metaphysical existence?
> 
> Define what a ghost is?
> ...


BOOOOOO!!!!!


CrackerJax said:


> Ghosts exist in the human mind. Nowhere else.


No irrefutable evidence of such.


Sparky4u said:


> Then why have they been recorded in both audio and video/camaera footage?


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

So far no footage has ever been proven to be real.

The farthest I am willing to go is time ripples. In the end science will reveal most likely that that is the case here. 

The vast majority is mind projection, which will appear COMPLETELY real to the observer. The rest just may be time echoes. 

In all cases except mind projection, there has been no true interaction. the "image" is going through whatever paces it is doing, trapped in a time ripple. Is it really them? Uhhh, no ... it's more like recording. Mary tyler Moore isn't really in the TV, but show a TV to someone who has never seen or heard of one, and try telling them that she's not in there.


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## morgentaler (Jan 9, 2010)

Sparky4u said:


> Then why have they been consistently recorded in both audio and video/camera footages?


That's quite the claim.

Back it up with samples. You could start a whole new branch of academia with verifiably true samples. Oddly enough it doesn't exist. Ghost hunting is television entertainment, rather than science.


On a side note, I was looking for the experiments where they can trigger ghost and abduction experiences and found this article on religious experiences via brain stimulation: http://discovermagazine.com/2006/dec/god-experiments/article_view?b_start:int=0&-C=


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## morgentaler (Jan 9, 2010)

Sparky4u said:


> Define what a ghost is?
> 
> Where does it (they) reside and why? Please provide your scholarly well-boundaried scientific studies here...


Sure, and you provide the scientific definition of leprechaun.



> Your ears are so full of themselves, they cannot hear anything that is trying to be communicated to them.


And some people's heads are so empty they'll fill it with any old nonsense.

Keep 'em coming.




> Does a bear shit in the woods? Not if I dont see him do it...


Remember that when you step in it.
"Paranormal bear shit! On my shoes! Call the Enquirer!"




> Atheists dont beleive in anything but themselves; which makes life harder for the rest of us.


Atheists don't believe in a theistic god.
Use a dictionary. Learn what words mean. It might make that hard life a little easier.

Some atheists believe in ghosts. Some believe vaccines turn your blood to acid. Not all athiests are realists.

The first half of your statement is just a lie, and the second half... that's just sad. If I don't automatically fall into line with your religious and supernatural beliefs, that makes your life hard. School must have been a bitch.



> Men have twisted religions into a ball of shit, it is an attempt to define what cannot be accurately defined.


Religion = myth. 
There. Saved you all that twisting.




> "Man" has created every word we currently use to associate all things we know, does this mean that this is all that exists?
> If a distant planet in another galaxy has its own ppl and language indigenous like, but we are unaware of it, does it not exist?


This argument is what they call a "straw man". You can go look that up too.
If we do not know another species exists, then our lack of said knowledge does not affect it's existence.
Our lack of knowledge of them doesn't give you carte blanche to then describe them in detail, their habits, biology, and favorite TV show. 

If you want to convince someone that Ghosts and Gods are real then show proof of them. Claiming "We don't know everything!" has never proven the existence of anything.



> Understand this, ANY words used will create potentially unintentional boundaries, thus beginning interpretational errors, and its all fucking downhill from there.


Categorization of concepts or words has no effect on whether the ghost of Aunt Martha hangs around throwing good china at the walls.
She is there, or she isn't.



> Religion helps people find appreciation for the fact they exist, and can be grateful for it, often providing a healthy structured life to billions of people.
> Some take this measure to an extreme which isnt healthy or accurate. Balance of all things is key. Shitty people can have any name, and come from any religion, inacurate interpretations they define lead them down more selfish paths.


And some people find appreciation for their lives in science, others in the observation of nature. I've never heard of anyone burned at the stake in the name of bird-watching though.
People have done bad things in the name of science, though there is nothing in science to justify those actions.
Scripture can provide you with all the justification for any good or bad action you want. You can quote mine it to meet any criteria. Genocide? Check. Murder? Check. Slavery? Check.



> Now, who wants a non physical visit?
> Of course, it wont actually exist if your an athiest?


Are you offering to haunt people?
Is this a free service or do you charge? Do the Ghostbusters know about you?


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## morgentaler (Jan 9, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> The farthest I am willing to go is time ripples. In the end science will reveal most likely that that is the case here.


Or electrical impulses in the brain:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/ghost3.htm


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

Yes, that was my first comment. It's in our heads.


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## rookie 420 (Jan 9, 2010)

People have always tried to find ways to explain everything, it's the power of our intellectual capability. I do not think that I am smarter than people who choose religion, I actually embrace their decision. Atheism just gives me the ability to wait for the next best option, I'm not even going to address the paranormal beliefs (thats reaching). I agree that in any religious or non-religious setting a person draws their own conclusion based on personal experiences or wants. I don't think that it is fair or even reasonable to place the blame for histories worste times soley on religion. The only problem with excusing religion is that it is one of the only common variables in all of the terrible acts through time, the only other common variable is human intellect. I think that we are more to blame for these atrocities than religion.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

I recognize that religious ppl are fearful. 

It's all about death, and not wanting to face up to mortality. Without immortality ... what exactly is modern man doing? It's something most ppl cannot deal with directly, and religion provides a crutch to them. the more adherent a person is to their myth dogma, the more fear they have. The truly adamant followers usually turn out to be the most dangerous. These are truly fearful and desperate ppl., and in the end, your NOT believing as they do infringes on their well being. You must be addressed. You will not be left alone by this sort of person/sect.


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## Sparky4u (Jan 10, 2010)

NO hauntings, chief. Simply asking you not to lock the wrong doors in your life. 
I do get frustrated with people who discount anything, everything, and including themselves or their potential origins. It CAN hinder their potential growth.
Acknowledging infinite does not mean you need to choose any religion by any means. 
My apologies, I guess I underestimated that some do need science to attempt explanations for them, please continue waiting on other humans for your answers to life. 
MOrgantaler, astrology does influence us, among other things, we are 90% water right? 
Energy comes from within as well, some are closer to finding it that others.
Just dont see any apparitions anytime soon, if you do, simply refer to your science journal of other people making peceptual observations in the dark for conclusions. 
Physicality isnt 5 % of what is currently going on around you, yet you cling to it with all your might.
Remember from your article 
"On the other hand, in its Science and Engineering Indicators report, the National Science Board (NSB) asserts that belief in the paranormal can be dangerous. According to the NSB, belief in the paranormal is a sign of reduced critical thinking skills and a reduced ability to make day-to-day decisions. However, since it's virtually impossible to prove that something does not exist, people will probably continue to believe in ghosts and haunted houses, especially since unexplained events aren't likely to go away anytime soon."

You are being steered by other humans (NSB) with these types of statements. I am being steered by none, and am simply telling you that you do not need to be either. 
Why not just be Morgentaler, instead of Morgentaler the Athiest? Why choose a position that cannot be proven by any? Does this not take faith to do so?
Your faith is simply in the men of the day who can find relationships that already existed. These relationships existed long before any "empirical" evidences ever did. Follow on man, follow on...


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 10, 2010)

"My apologies, I guess I underestimated that some do need science to attempt explanations for them, please continue waiting on other humans for your answers to life."

rep
rep rep 
rep rep rep rep
rep rep rep


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## PadawanBater (Jan 10, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> "My apologies, I guess I underestimated that some do need science to attempt explanations for them, please continue waiting on other humans for your answers to life."
> 
> rep
> rep rep
> ...


"My apologies, I guess I underestimated that some do need *religion* to attempt explanations for them, please continue waiting on other humans for your answers to life."


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 10, 2010)

PadawanBater said:


> "My apologies, I guess I underestimated that some do need *religion* to attempt explanations for them, please continue waiting on other humans for your answers to life."


rep
rep rep
rep rep rep rep
rep rep rep

What exists beyond the pillars of perception?


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## CrackerJax (Jan 10, 2010)

Some folks are more gullible than others I suppose.


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## mindphuk (Jan 10, 2010)

Sparky4u said:


> NO hauntings, chief. Simply asking you not to lock the wrong doors in your life.
> I do get frustrated with people who discount anything, everything, and including themselves or their potential origins. It CAN hinder their potential growth.
> Acknowledging infinite does not mean you need to choose any religion by any means.
> My apologies, I guess I underestimated that some do need science to attempt explanations for them, please continue waiting on other humans for your answers to life.
> ...


Yes, rational thinkers are heavily swayed by what others tell them. 

Wow, were 90% water so Astrology must be right? I think you might need some humans to guide you a bit. An atom is mostly space; we're made up entirely of atoms. Doesn't that mean things should pass right through us? Damn that science, always coming up with reasons I can't walk through walls.


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## morgentaler (Jan 10, 2010)

Sparky4u said:


> MOrgantaler, astrology does influence us, among other things, we are 90% water right?
> Energy comes from within as well, some are closer to finding it that others.


Astrology influences people who believe that a bunch of vague generalizations about personalities rule their day.
It has nothing to do with water.
It has nothing to do with gravitational influences. 
Astrological charts are based on the idea that the sky is a two dimensional construct applied to a sphere around the earth.
It does not consider the idea that one star in a constellation might be 50 light years away and another 50 million. Nor does it convey any explanation as to why a planet's orbit passing in front of it means "you will be good at love this week".

[youtube]3Dp2Zqk8vHw[/youtube]

So astrology influences us in the same way one might say "Hey, look over there!" and when you look, I steal your dessert off your lunch tray.

Would you like a horoscope? That chocolate bar looks tasty.



> Physicality isnt 5 % of what is currently going on around you, yet you cling to it with all your might.


Everything around you is physical. Every neuron firing in your brain, the chemical reactions that take place.
You can observe physical reality.
You can even use those processes to create fiction. And then worship it.




> Remember from your article
> "On the other hand, in its Science and Engineering Indicators report, the National Science Board (NSB) asserts that belief in the paranormal can be dangerous. According to the NSB, belief in the paranormal is a sign of reduced critical thinking skills and a reduced ability to make day-to-day decisions. However, since it's virtually impossible to prove that something does not exist, people will probably continue to believe in ghosts and haunted houses, especially since unexplained events aren't likely to go away anytime soon."


There is an invisible monkey that sits on your head your entire life, shitting out undetectable strange matter which runs down your face and can only be seen by the intelligent slime molds of a planet 38 billion light years away.
It's virtually impossible for you to prove that the monkey does not exist.
By your reasoning, would you be a believer in invisible monkeys now?

Humanity is a creative organism. We can lie. Some of you make religion out of it. I don't have that need.



> 1) Why not just be Morgentaler, instead of Morgentaler the Athiest?
> 
> 2) Why choose a position that cannot be proven by any?
> 
> 3) Does this not take faith to do so?


1) Because a bunch of superstitious idiots think it's imperative to put their belief in a magic man in the sky into our schools, courts, and government. A system built on reason and evidence trumps one based on religion. Why are gays evil? God says so. Why can't I eat shellfish? God says so? Why am I going to be tortured for not believing in god? God says so. Funny. Nobody living has ever seen this god, a god that comes from people who didn't understand things like sanitation and health trying to explain away the world.

2) If you want to claim that astrology influences us and the god is real, that's up to you to prove. I'm not going to start believing in your mythology just because you assert it is so. 

3) No. 



> Your faith is simply in the men of the day who can find relationships that already existed. These relationships existed long before any "empirical" evidences ever did. Follow on man, follow on...


If you read about an experiment in a science textbook, you can reproduce that experiment and see for yourself. Some experiments you can do in a kitchen, while others would require extensive training and equipment, but you *can* reproduce them, given enough time.

The nature of religion and superstition is that a case is stated and if you are unable to reproduce that case you simply "aren't trying hard enough" or "don't believe enough".

And that is the mark of a fraud, perpetrated on the naive and gullible.


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## Leothwyn (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah, I've heard that astrology & 90% water thing before... the moon (and sun, to a much lesser degree) influence tides, not stars that are millions of miles away. You'd think they would've picked up on that if there was any truth to it.


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## Big P (Jan 11, 2010)

I think horescopes and thier tendency to explain personalities born in certain times of the year may be due to the fact that depending what part of the year you were in your mothers womb and what month you came out could have effect on your personality


like say if I was born during the summer. my mother would have been doing fun summer things and maybe talking to a lot of people and stuff maybe spending a lot of time outdoors in the nice weather, while i was in her womb so in effect could cause me to have a pre-bias to come out with a certain personality type that is commen for infants born in that particular time of year in that particular region.

I can see how differences in off springs born in different seasons could create slightly predictible and different personality traits,


but that other astrological shit is bs


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## mindphuk (Jan 11, 2010)

Leothwyn said:


> Yeah, I've heard that astrology & 90% water thing before... the moon (and sun, to a much lesser degree) influence tides, not stars that are millions of miles away. You'd think they would've picked up on that if there was any truth to it.


when you are born, the obstetrician has more gravitational pull on you than the planets.


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## Stoney McFried (Jan 11, 2010)

Hey...that gravitational pull thing...can I blame that for why my ass sticks out farther than I'd like it to?


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## mindphuk (Jan 11, 2010)

Stoney McFried said:


> Hey...that gravitational pull thing...can I blame that for why my ass sticks out farther than I'd like it to?


Naw stoney, your ass is fine.


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## Stoney McFried (Jan 11, 2010)

Then why do my backup lights keep shorting out?


mindphuk said:


> Naw stoney, your ass is fine.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 11, 2010)

Because ur sweater is on too tight..... Those high beams are shorting out ur tail lights...


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## Stoney McFried (Jan 11, 2010)

It must be,I can't even see it.....and I've had two kids who I breast fed.I think you mean low beams.


CrackerJax said:


> Because ur sweater is on too tight..... Those high beams are shorting out ur tail lights...


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## Magnetar (Jan 11, 2010)

My God lives in my basement.


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## Big P (Jan 11, 2010)

why is jesus middle name louise?


jesus louise christ


and also what does the H stand for in 


Jesus H Christ?

 10 rupees for those who can answer me


10 Rupees = $0.0117772 USD


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## Stoney McFried (Jan 11, 2010)

Jesus Hummus Christ. I don't want any rupees, I want to carry more arrows.






Big P said:


> why is jesus middle name louise?
> 
> 
> jesus louise christ
> ...


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## morgentaler (Jan 11, 2010)

Big P said:


> I can see how differences in off springs born in different seasons could create slightly predictible and different personality traits,


I wouldn't know what traits in the child would be affected, but you would definitely be able to observe a change in hormonal levels in the mother based on seasonal and sunlight changes, physical activity, etc.


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## morgentaler (Jan 11, 2010)

Stoney McFried said:


> Hey...that gravitational pull thing...can I blame that for why my ass sticks out farther than I'd like it to?


No proof without pics!


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## morgentaler (Jan 11, 2010)

Big P said:


> and also what does the H stand for in
> Jesus H Christ?


Hypocritical.


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## Big P (Jan 11, 2010)

hell yeah man maybe thats its, its weird cuz my horescope nails my personality to a t


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## CrackerJax (Jan 11, 2010)

It's always meant Holy in my house... My dad would say it out loud when he got pissed off. Jesus Holy Christ!!! Usually my name followed that phrase ... with a few !!! and then a few *&#$*@*&


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## Sparky4u (Jan 14, 2010)

From your scientists





Astrology is defined in the Chambers Dictionary as: 
"...the study of the movements of the stars and planets and their influence on people's lives". 
Although astrology is viewed as a crank belief by many people (who usually have no understanding of it at all) there is no doubt that the sun, moon, and planets of our solar system have an effect on the human body and the planet Earth. Although many serious astrologers dismiss as "nonsense" the popular ï¿½sun sign astrology" which is responsible for the plethora of daily horoscope columns, zodiac sign personality profiles, and the annual tabloid predictions given by astrologers each year, many people ignorantly equate the entire science of astrology with these dubious things.

A major principle in astrology is the idea represented by the saying, "As above, so below" or "That which is above is the same as that which is below." In quantum physics terminology, it means that what applies to the very large (the solar system) applies to the very small (the atom). The same laws apply to both. In mathematical terms, human beings are like a "fractal" of the universe, each cell in our body is like a "fractal" (DNA) of our entire body, the atom is like a fractal of each cell, and so on, ad infinitum. The ancients believed the study of the stars is a study of the inner workings of the human mind. This does not seem like such an odd idea when you consider that everything - including our minds - evolved from the stars from the Big Bang. Astrology is simply a system of thought concerning the connections between external reality and internal reality. 

Everyday we rise with the sun when our bodies release hormones that awaken us in the morning. In the summer, when the sun appears in the sky longer, our endocrine glands release more hormones which bring us a sense of well-being. By late afternoon we become more relaxed as the sun's strength wanes. Lunar cycles also have an effect on the Earth and human beings. The tidal flow of the world's oceans corresponds to the waxing and waning of the moon, as does the menstrual cycle. The mental disorder called Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) is the result of the long nights and weeks during winter when the sun does not appear in the sky as long. However, on the equator, where the sun is stronger and appears for longer periods, SAD does not exist. The American Institute of Medical Climatology did a study for the Philadelphia Police Department and the results were documented in a report entitled ï¿½The Effect of the Full Moon on Human Behavior.ï¿½ The report provided evidence that the full moon marks a monthly peak in various kinds of psychotically oriented crimes such as murder, arson, dangerous driving, and kleptomania. Psychologist Arnold Lieber at the University of Miami collected data on homicide in Miami's Dade County over a period of 15 years involving 1,887 murders. When they matched the incidence of homicide with the phases of the moon, they found, much to their surprise, that the two rose and fell together, almost infallibly, for the entire 15 years. As the full or the new moon approached, the murder rate rose sharply; it distinctly declined during the first and last quarters of the moon. The study was replicated using murder statistics from Cuyahoga County in Ohio (Cleveland). Again, the statistics revealed that more murders do indeed occur at the full and new moons.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 14, 2010)

My significant other is one of the most amazing though unaware astrologers I have ever encountered.

Shut Up And Vote


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## Sparky4u (Jan 14, 2010)

*Scientific evidence validating astrology*





The following are some of the scientific discoveries that have validated astrological concepts:

*(1)* Serial killers can be identified through a person's astrological birth chart.
*(2)* There is a correlation between a person's chosen profession and their astrological birth chart.
*(3)* Mental illness can be predicted by astrology.
*(4)* Fetuses might be affected by the movement of the sun, moon, and planets as they interfere with the Earth's magnetic field which may have an influence on the fetuses occupation later in life.
*(5)* Women can use the lunar cycle for purposes of contraception.
*(6)* Many terrestrial phenomena are influenced by electromagnetic and gravitational effects originating within the solar system. 
*(7)* Sun spot activity affects the molecular structure of water.
*(* Sun spot activity affects the molecular structure of blood.
*(9)* Potatoes, rats, fiddler crabs, and oysters are all governed by lunar periods.
*(10)* A theoretical model using principles of mathematics and physics may account for human consciousness and process as it relates to the zodiac.
*(11)* The concept of karma was demonstrated to be a reality in a study which confirmed that acting selflessly has rewards.

*(1) Serial killers can be identified through a person's astrological birth chart.*





A recent episode of the television program, Unsolved Mysteries, profiled a segment concerning an experiment in astrology. The producers of the show had twenty astrological birth charts from people at random. Included with the twenty astrological charts, the producers put the astrological charts of four serial killers: Jeffrey Dahmer, David Son of Sam Berkowitz, David the Night Stalker Ramirez, and Ed Kemper. These astrological charts were given to Carolyn Reynolds, a well-known astrologer, to see if she can glean any information from them. Without knowing the identity of the people whose charts she was analyzing, Carolyn Reynolds successfully identified the four people as possible serial killers. She was also able to give other specific information about these serial killers that proved correct. She was able to do all this just by analyzing their astrological birth chart.

Astrology influences us constantly. It isnt simply the horoscopes people use to create a profit and give someone a job at the newspaper.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 14, 2010)

As soon as you can show me a serial killer before he becomes one ... that isn't science.

I did chuckle though....


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## Big P (Jan 14, 2010)

Sparky4u said:


> *Scientific evidence validating astrology*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
all she had to do was memorize all the main serial killers astroligical charts before they did the expiriment


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 14, 2010)

[youtube]_rcfBaVs09w[/youtube]

Shut Up And Vote


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## mindphuk (Jan 14, 2010)

Sparky4u said:


> *Scientific evidence validating astrology*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't it convenient how none of these claims have any citations along with them? 
Come on Sparky, these bullshit claims have been made many times before but when put to the test in properly blinded or otherwise controlled experiments or studies, 
most of these claims have been shown to be without merit. Sure, some plants and animals respond to lunar cycles and certain terrestrial phenomena (why won't they be 
specific what those are?) are affected by electromagnetism but that's a long way from demonstrating humans are affected as well.



> *(1) Serial killers can be identified through a person's astrological birth chart.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So the maternity wards on the days that those serial killers were born produced nothing but serial killers....

Much more likely is that Reynold's was told ahead of time what she was going to be tested on, very likely considering how TV is done. 
All she had to do is memorize the birth dates and some biographical facts of some famous serial killers. Alternately, she could have had someone on the inside of the show.
There is no telling what kind of controls and security they used. There are many instances of scientists getting duped by psychics because they don't expect or specifically look for cheating. 
Get a magician in on the testing and all of the sudden these psychics and astrologers don't do as well.


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## mexiblunt (Jan 14, 2010)

Maybe she was already familiar with the other 16 so the 4 stuck out like a sore thumb?


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## morgentaler (Jan 14, 2010)

Sparky4u said:


> *Scientific evidence validating astrology*



Riiiight. Unsolved mysteries, the great scientific program...

How about you cite some REAL scientific evidence validating astrology?

If we're just going to pull rabbits out of hats here I could claim that all religious people are child molesters because we caught some priests molesting kids.

There's nothing scientific about it, but any one coincidence or unverified and uncontrolled "experiment" would be scientific proof by your criteria.


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## morgentaler (Jan 14, 2010)

I don't know whether it's sad or funny when people come running back with evidence that is actually more laughable than the original claim.

It's one thing to say that light affects the regulation of hormonal secretions, but for them to claim astrology is real because of it is just ridiculous.

Astrology claims to know that you'll meet the love of your life, or have a positive/negative interaction with your boss from one week to the next, among other silliness.

Great. Somehow they are able to extrapolate from YOUR birthday how things beyond your *biological* control, such as other people, lottery numbers, etc. will impact your life.

But it's all real.

Just like homeopathy cures all illnesses, and you can tell the personality and future of a person by phrenology.

What are the odds that if we look up horoscopes from individual "astrologers" in major newspapers that their predictions for a given day will be exactly the same for *all* the signs, without deviation...

Let's see what happy dance would be done to explain away the differences. 




mindphuk said:


> Isn't it convenient how none of these claims have any citations along with them?
> Come on Sparky, these bullshit claims have been made many times before but when put to the test in properly blinded or otherwise controlled experiments or studies,
> most of these claims have been shown to be without merit. Sure, some plants and animals respond to lunar cycles and certain terrestrial phenomena (why won't they be
> specific what those are?) are affected by electromagnetism but that's a long way from demonstrating humans are affected as well.


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## morgentaler (Jan 14, 2010)

Oh, by the way. This is Sparky's "scientific" reference:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/articles012.html


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 14, 2010)

morgentaler said:


> Phat White Rabbits Are Much More Fun To Pull On


Shut Up And Vote


----------



## Sparky4u (Jan 14, 2010)

The only living thing hypocritical is humans. 

There was an interesting man by the name of Edgar Cayce, who died in the 1940's. He developed an ability to medically diagnose anyone, anywhere in the world. He could also tell them how to treat the condition, never having been to any medical school, with hightest education of like 8th grade.
He conducted somewhere in the neighborhood of 13k to 15k readings for people, including our past presidents.
He entered himself into a trance in which a translator was required to record everything he said. WHen he came out of the trance he would not know anything of what he said, however, it could never be proven wrong.
NAy sayers would attempt to create fictitious people and provide the wrong addresses, and he couldnt be fooled. Ever.
He could even describe the inside of the house address where patient is at, even if its half way around the world.
He was never wrong. 

He struggled with his gift his whole life having no background to comprehend this ability, yet he was a devout baptist and sunday school teacher. 
Astral projection is something some people can do,not something they need to record for those who cant. Why hasnt your science taught you how to do this yet?
He chose to use his gifts for the right reasons, his foundation was selfless giving, as each reading drained him of his physical vitality and took a toll on his physical health.
Would you do this for humanity Morgantaler if you had such a gift? 
Religions can help people align their conscious. 
Some do need it more than others, to this we can at least agree.


----------



## mindphuk (Jan 14, 2010)

Sparky4u said:


> There was an interesting man by the name of Edgar Cayce,
> He was never wrong.


Bold claim. I guess when you make unverifiable claims like those of Atlantis, or California will _one day_ fall into the ocean after a major quake, and the "unknown" life of Jesus, you are pretty much clear from being wrong.

However, when he was specific, such as his dates for the pyramids of Egypt, he was quite incorrect.

It's very sad that someone would come here and claim he was never wrong and did all of these fantastical healings without any true verification of such events.


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## Sparky4u (Jan 14, 2010)

We will all get our verification when we die. 
Until then, I wish you all the best.


----------



## morgentaler (Jan 14, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> Shut Up And Vote


You could have just pointed out I said astronomy instead of astrology up there 
I'm running on 3 hours sleep. Insomnia sucks.


----------



## mindphuk (Jan 14, 2010)

Sparky4u said:


> We will all get our verification when we die.
> Until then, I wish you all the best.


Yep, no sense in trying to verify those claims but it's fine to say he was never wrong....


----------



## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 14, 2010)

Who needs proof anyway?

Shut Up And Vote


----------



## morgentaler (Jan 14, 2010)

Sparky4u said:


> He could even describe the inside of the house address where patient is at, even if its half way around the world.
> He was never wrong.


Never, huh?
That one was easy. From Wikipedia. I'm sure I can find more if you need it, but even providing one reference is more than you provide so I'm not going to work too hard.

In 1984, the Cayce foundation supported an effort to carbon date the pyramids of Giza. The average radiocarbon dates were 374 years earlier than expected by the Egyptologists, but nowhere near the 10,500 years B.C. claimed by Cayce.[27] The carbon dates of the Great Pyramid ranged from about 38002850 B.C.about 7,000 years later than Cayce's claim.[28]




> He chose to use his gifts for the right reasons, his foundation was selfless giving, as each reading drained him of his physical vitality and took a toll on his physical health.


He died at the age of 67, certainly not a spring chicken nor out of the ordinary for the time.
His marketing strategy of asking for donations is no different than that of the evangelist who asks for donations rather than demanding a salary.
If his psychic powers were so strong why would he have need of donations when investments would be such a trivial thing.

He could have single handedly saved the US from the depression, or identified Hitler as a threat far in advance... 




> Would you do this for humanity Morgantaler if you had such a gift?


With a gift of performance like that I'd likely be a headline act in Las Vegas.



> Religions can help people align their conscious.
> Some do need it more than others, to this we can at least agree.


"align their conscious"... 
No, we can't at least agree.
If you want to believe in some unsubstantiated zen stuff that's fine. If you're going to claim any of it as fact, back it up.


----------



## morgentaler (Jan 14, 2010)

Let's put it on the table. Show me just one published paper in the Journal of General Psychology or Journal Nature that supports psychic phenomenon or astrology.
You can find abstracts for the articles on PubMed or other academic sites.

It's more work than searching for "why psychics are real" in google, but a successful find would lend strength to the claims where none currently exists.


----------



## mange (Jan 14, 2010)

Man, I want what you guys are Smoking. Holy Crap!


----------



## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 14, 2010)

Welcome to the Mystic Mountains.

Help yourself to some delicious brownies

then

Shut Up And Vote


----------



## PadawanBater (Jan 14, 2010)

Astrology... Really?

Even if I was 12 you couldn't make me believe astrology was authentic science.


----------



## CrackerJax (Jan 14, 2010)

PadawanBater said:


> Astrology... Really?
> 
> Even if I was 12 you couldn't make me believe astrology was authentic science.


Dat's right!!!

If you'll believe in Astrology, u'll believe in anything.


----------



## Sparky4u (Jan 14, 2010)

I shouldnt have said never, I was bound to eat that. Rightfully so.

You have to read books about Cayce to understand him. He saw spirits regularly, and even played with them in his backyard. He actively communicated with them, not saw them through some timeskip/warp/whatever. 
He didnt begin astral projection until he was like 13 or so. Whenever he used his gifts for profits, it would never work out. He couldnt/wouldnt use his gifts for any hardcore personal gains such as Vegas freak, sorry. 

Throughout his readings/checkups he would find that depending on the type of dr the patient had, only parts of his treatments were being administered. Mostly because the treatments combined both western style medicine along with chiropractic applications. 
The contradiction in training methods left the patients not being treated as prescribed wholely.
He recognized this, and went about a lifetime of trying to open a hospital to ensure proper and accurate treatments.
He limitedly did past life regressions for people, but recognized it could have a negative effect on them so he quit doing it. Ironically, his son now does/did it as a profession, and the family works at keeping all he has recorded/said in order.
He could not personally recall anything he said during the sessions, and wasnt sent to be everyones savior, even from Hitler. Lots of books out there on the guy, it is what first attracted me to the written concepts of astral travel.

But a better question is how can one provide pictures of an afterlife if it isnt physical?
What publication has enough credibility anywhere to say, hey, yep, theres an afterlife, or nope it all hogwash because I say so? No one on this earth has this authority, am I correct?
Nothing anyone has ever written will change a position that doesnt wish to be changed.

I am not attempting to steer any in a particular direction per se, however I am much more skeptical of any man than a creative source of existence; which is my whole main point of all these conversations. 

Man is the one who has put a lot of false words into God's mouth throughout history, man should be blamed for it, not God. Many religions are broken into pieces to support man these days.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 14, 2010)

It's all a con job, every one of the seers. Houdini proved that much.... over and over again.


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## mindphuk (Jan 14, 2010)

*Edgar Cayce (1877-1945)*

*Cayce "loved to have his patients boiling the most obscure roots and bark to make nasty syrups. Perhaps the therapy was based on nauseating the victim so much that the original illness was forgotten." --James Randi*​ 




Edgar Cayce (pronounced Casey) is known as one of America's greatest psychics. His followers maintain that Cayce was able to tap into some sort of higher consciousness, such as God or the akashic record, to get his "psychic knowledge." He used this "knowledge" to predict that California will slide into the ocean and that New York City will be destroyed in some sort of cataclysm. He predicted that in 1958 the U.S. would discover some sort of death ray used on Atlantis. Cayce is one of the main people responsible for some of the sillier notions about Atlantis, including the idea that the Atlanteans had some sort of Great Crystal. Cayce called the Great Crystal the _Tuaoi Stone_ and said it was a huge cylindrical prism that was used to gather and focus "energy," allowing the Atlanteans to do all kinds of fantastic things. But they got greedy and stupid, tuned up their Crystal to too high a frequency and set off volcanic disturbances that led to the destruction of that ancient world. He made other predictions concerning such things as the Great Depression (that 1933 would be a good year) and the Lindbergh kidnapping (most of it wrong, all of it useless), and that China would be converted to Christianity by 1968. He also claimed to be able see and read auras, but this power was never tested under controlled conditions. However, Edgar Cayce is best known for being a psychic medical diagnostician and psychic reader of past lives. ​ Cayce was known as "the sleeping prophet" because he would close his eyes and appear to go into a trance when he did his readings (Stearn 1990). At his death, he left thousands of accounts of past life and medical readings. A stenographer took notes during his sessions and some 30,000 transcripts of his readings are under the protection of the Association for Research and Enlightenment. However, Cayce usually worked with an assistant (hypnotist and mail-order osteopath Al Layne; John Blackburn, M.D.; homeopath Wesley Ketchum). According to Dale Beyerstein, "these documents are worthless by themselves" because they provide no way of distinguishing what Cayce discerned by psychic ability from information provided to him by his assistants, by letters from patients, or by simple observation. In short, the only evidence for Cayce's psychic doctoring is useless for testing his psychic powers. Nevertheless, it is the volume and alleged accuracy of his "cures" that seem to provide the main basis for belief in Cayce as a psychic. In fact, however, the support for his accuracy consists of little more than anecdotes and testimonials. There is no way to demonstrate that Cayce relied on psychic powers, rather than the placebo effect, even on those cases where there is no dispute that he was instrumental in the cure. ​ It is true, however, that many people considered themselves cured by Cayce and that's enough evidence for true believers. It works! The fact that thousands don't consider themselves cured or can't rationalize an erroneous diagnosis won't deter the true believer. Gardner notes that Dr. J. B. Rhine, famous for his ESP experiments at Duke University, was not impressed with Cayce. Rhine felt that a psychic reading done for his daughter didn't fit the facts. Defenders of Cayce claim that if a patient has any doubts about Cayce, the diagnosis won't be a good one. Yet, what reasonable person wouldn't have doubts about such a man, no matter how kind or sincere he was? ​ Cayce's defenders provide some classic  _ad hoc hypotheses_ to explain away their hero's failures. For example, Cayce and a famous dowser named Henry Gross set out together to discover buried treasure along the seashore and found nothing. Their defenders suggested that their psychic powers were accurate because either there once was a buried treasure where they looked but it had been dug up earlier, or there would be a treasure buried there sometime in the future (one wonders why their psychic powers didn't discern this). ​ There are many myths and legends surrounding Cayce: that an angel appeared to him when he was 13 and asked him what his greatest desire was (Cayce allegedly told the angel that his greatest desire was to help people); that he could absorb the contents of a book by putting it under his pillow while he slept; that he passed spelling tests by using clairvoyance; that he was illiterate and uneducated. _The New York Times_ is greatly responsible for the illiteracy myth ("Illiterate Man Becomes a Doctor When Hypnotized," (Sunday magazine section, October 9, 1910). Many of the myths were passed on unchecked by Thomas Sugrue, who believed Cayce had cured him of a disabling illness. In his 1945 book _  The Story of Edgar Cayce: There is a River,_ Sugrue asserts that it was Cayce, not the medical doctors who treated them, that was responsible for the cures of Cayce's son ("blindness") and wife ("tuberculosis"). ​ One of the most common reasons given for believing in the psychic abilities of people such as Cayce is the claim that _there's no way he could have known this stuff by ordinary means. _He must have been told this by God or spirits or have been astrally projected back or forth in space or time, etc. Yet, Cayce's "psychic knowledge" is easily explained by quite ordinary ways of knowing things. ​ Even though Cayce didn't have a formal education much beyond grammar school, he was a voracious reader, worked in bookstores, and was especially fond of occult and osteopathic literature. (Osteopathy, in his day, was primitive and akin to naturopathy and folk medicine.) He was in contact with and assisted by people with various medical backgrounds. Even so, many of his readings would probably only make sense to an osteopath of his day. Martin Gardner cites Cayce's reading of Cayce's own wife as an example. The woman was suffering from tuberculosis: ​ .... from the head, pains along through the body from the second, fifth and sixth dorsals, and from the first and second lumbar...tie-ups here, floating lesions, or lateral lesions, in the muscular and nerve fibers which supply the lower end of the lung and the diaphragm...in conjunction with the sympathetic nerve of the solar plexus, coming in  conjunction with the solar plexus at the end of the stomach.... (Gardner 1957: 217*)*​ The fact that Cayce mentions the _lung _is taken by his followers as evidence of a correct diagnosis; it counts as a psychic "hit." But what about the incorrect diagnoses: dorsals, lumbar, floating lesions, solar plexus and stomach? Why aren't those counted as diagnostic misses? And why did Cayce recommend osteopathic treatment for people with tuberculosis, epilepsy, and cancer? ​ In addition to osteopathy, Cayce was knowledgeable of homeopathy and naturopathy. According to Dale Beyerstein, Cayce was one of the first to recommend laetrile as a cancer cure.* (Laetrile is chemically related to amygdalin, a substance found naturally in the pits of apricots and various other fruits, and is known to be ineffective for cancer.) Beyerstein writes:​ Stearn (1967) summarizes Cayce's pronouncements on cancer. He reports that Cayce prescribed a serum made from the blood of rabbits for patients with "glandular," breast, and thyroid cancers, and in 1926, prescribed for a New York patient the raw side of a freshly skinned rabbit, still warm with blood, fur side out, placed on the breast for cancer of that area. "Animated ash," produced by taking bamboo fibers and passing an electrical charge through them, thereby producing the right vibrations for "life flowing effects," was another of his favorite cures.​ Cayce also recommended "oil of smoke" (creosote made from pine tar*) for a leg sore; "peach-tree poultice" for convulsions; "bedbug juice" for dropsy; "fumes of apple brandy from a charred keg" for tuberculosis; and peanut oil rub to prevent arthritis (Gardner 1957). Gardner notes that Cayce recommended almonds to _prevent_ cancer, but he makes no mention of laetrile either as a preventive or a cure of anything.​


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## CrackerJax (Jan 14, 2010)

Cayce was a great con man.... no doubt about it.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 14, 2010)

PadawanBater said:


> Astrology... Really?
> 
> Even if I was 12 you couldn't make me believe astrology was authentic science.


IT's not.

IT is pheels phreaky as phuck to have your stars read by someone REALly good.

Pure entertainment.

Shut Up And Vote


----------



## PadawanBater (Jan 14, 2010)

If people just sat down and gave this shit some actual thought, they would conclude themselves it's bullshit.

Here's a good link for anyone who believes in... questionable science.

http://www.skeptic.com/

and another one;

http://www.youtube.com/user/JamesRandiFoundation


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## Big P (Jan 14, 2010)

here lets try to con each other and do a reading on each other and see if we get close,

to prove its a con


ok ill start reading Crackers fortune, 




owwwwmmmmm owwwwmmm







There was sombody very close to you whom you have lost touch with long long ago but have never forgoten, you will be seeing them soon

your planning a great trip soon but will be going alone
this time


you will suceed in this next year in your finances


be wary of the person who has recently appeared in your life, they may not be dangerous but they are definatly not to be trusted



check around your house there is somthing that needs repairing ASAP


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## CrackerJax (Jan 14, 2010)

OMG ... that was nearly spot on! That's amazing!!


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 14, 2010)

Not bad, P Man

made me smile!

Shut Up And Vote


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## formlessqarrior (Jan 14, 2010)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zem1m08qWYQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zem1m08qWYQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## CrackerJax (Jan 14, 2010)

So around the house, it must mean I need to fix my wife, cuz she says it's a no go for my solo trip!


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## Big P (Jan 14, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> So around the house, it must mean I need to fix my wife, cuz she says it's a no go for my solo trip!


 
exactly


road trip!!!



you guys seen this movie, very funny:










[youtube]zSvwmgWCJ2s[/youtube]


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## CrackerJax (Jan 14, 2010)

I'll have to downstream it sometime!


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## morgentaler (Jan 14, 2010)

Sparky4u said:


> You have to read books about Cayce to understand him. He saw spirits regularly, and even played with them in his backyard. He actively communicated with them, not saw them through some timeskip/warp/whatever.


So did my neighbor. Most of the time she was a functioning schizophrenic. Then one night she walked into our house carrying a butcher knife.

My mother put us kids in the bedroom, told us to lock the door and not open it no matter what until she said it was okay.

When you have real experience with people who see and hear shit that isn't there, it's not romantic or cool. It's sad to see them falter through life, or maddening to see someone use the claim to perpetuate fraud on the gullible.

If Cayce had been scientifically verifiable the researchers who proved it would be as famous as the Ghostbusters right now. And you would see universities offering courses, and kids being recruited to join the PsiCorps straight out of school.


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## PadawanBater (Jan 14, 2010)

morgentaler said:


> So did my neighbor. Most of the time she was a functioning schizophrenic. Then one night she walked into our house carrying a butcher knife.
> 
> My mother put us kids in the bedroom, told us to lock the door and not open it no matter what until she said it was okay.
> 
> ...


Oh boy, you can say that again!


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 15, 2010)

We have friends who battle the demons.

We're grateful they fight the valiant fight for us.

[youtube]I1XxILVnt1w[/youtube]

Shut Up And Vote


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## Sparky4u (Jan 15, 2010)

BIg P has serious earning potential, I think he could moonlight for some extra cash if he wanted.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 15, 2010)

Yes he does, because "there's a sucker born every minute" as P.T. Barnum wisely extolled.

You'd pay .....


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 15, 2010)

Now he's gonna go off and start a elite astrological society here at RIU and charge five dollars each if he can ever get IT to work.

Where would he ever find enough spirits to make IT profitable?

Shut Up And Vote


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## CrackerJax (Jan 15, 2010)

It ALWAYS works on XXX% of the population. If you show up for a "reading", then U already have "sucker" written on ur forehead. The rest is easy.


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## morgentaler (Jan 15, 2010)

Heh, like that certain other member who stated that if you asked the people at the gathering he was at you'd find that the majority of them believed in the supernatural or spirits or whatever it was...
Of course they would if that's what they were there for...
People who don't believe in astrology or psychics just don't go to them except for a laugh.

edit: And the best part? When a psychic asks "Would you like your fortune told?" .... Well gee dipshit, you tell me, you're the psychic


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## CrackerJax (Jan 15, 2010)

Wrestling on TV works the same way..... If ur there, you already have broadcast ur mental stamina ... which is none at all.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 15, 2010)

Is IT the same with Ultimate Fighting?

Shut Up And Vote


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## CrackerJax (Jan 15, 2010)

get in the ring and find out.....


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 15, 2010)

No thanks.

I believe

my eye


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## CrackerJax (Jan 15, 2010)

Then why ask something you already know the answer to.... I can't fill in all ur blanks.... not without $$$ compensation.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 15, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> Wrestling on TV works the same way..... If ur there, you already have broadcast ur mental stamina ... which is none at all.



We beg to differ.

Your mental stamina is unknown.

Shut Up And Vote


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## CrackerJax (Jan 15, 2010)

It's common knowledge which is real and which isn't. KNOWING my heightened sense of logic, it wouldn't be a wild guess to know that I know.

Then again, it might take logic to deduce that ... so you get a pass.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 15, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> KNOWING my heightened sense of logic, it wouldn't be a wild guess to know that I know.


Our guess is you would get your ass kicked in an Ultimate Fight

unless you had weapons?


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## CrackerJax (Jan 15, 2010)

My guess is I'm smart enough not to enter.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 15, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> get in the ring and find out.....


Practice what you preach?


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## CrackerJax (Jan 15, 2010)

Once again, u've lost me..... why pray tell do I need to enter that ring?


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 15, 2010)

You told someone to do something you guess your smart enough not to do, even with weapons.

Practicing preachers are proficient with theirs.

Shut Up And Vote


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## llltimelll (Jan 15, 2010)

_*yeah...


wut hippie said*_.


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## llltimelll (Jan 15, 2010)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qqXi8WmQ_WM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/qqXi8WmQ_WM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


----------



## llltimelll (Jan 15, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqXi8WmQ_WM


----------



## llltimelll (Jan 15, 2010)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qqXi8WmQ_WM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true">


----------



## morgentaler (Jan 15, 2010)

You can't even troll with any skill.
That's more amusing than your posts.


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## llltimelll (Jan 15, 2010)

morgan....your not even a loser...you already lost...aint no one trollin here, bu you.



yeah its true i dont know all the specifics of posting, bu at least i can get your gurl to do that thing with her tongue when i see her again.


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## llltimelll (Jan 15, 2010)

i argue my 171 posts to your 1071 trolling posts



btw, 2much is probably the coolest person you will ever know... i still dont see why he added you as a friend...


bu, wuTeverrrrR, dooooood


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## morgentaler (Jan 15, 2010)

llltimelll said:


> yeah its true i dont know all the specifics of posting, bu at least i can get your gurl to do that thing with her tongue when i see her again.


The failed youtube posts are only a small part of it.
The failed language, and the elementary school banter make up the rest.

I really do find the whole bandana and sunglasses thing amusing though. Can you zoom out a little so we can see the gang signs or vulcan symbol?


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## llltimelll (Jan 15, 2010)

lol....

finally......morgan can be funny

jus had to make sure you had a soul...

aNYwAyS bE gLAd i dOnT TYpE yOu LikE ThiS bc it could be worse


the bad spelling is part of typin fast....and partly bc i'm jus soooooooO kewl



off note a bit u could join my gang....our sign is a middle finger...sayin fuck the cameras in the world.....our color is black...our name is the God Squad...or sumthin??


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## CrackerJax (Jan 15, 2010)

Stupid is as stupid does. Nuff said.


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## morgentaler (Jan 16, 2010)

Fuck. Brazko has a kid?


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## WelcomeToTheWest (Jan 16, 2010)

I haven't posted here in a while - I am reading everything I missed. I have much to say - brb...


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 16, 2010)

[youtube]-8oAGvFxevw[/youtube]

Shut Up And Vote


----------



## WelcomeToTheWest (Jan 16, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> I recognize that religious ppl are fearful.
> 
> It's all about death, and not wanting to face up to mortality. Without immortality ... what exactly is modern man doing? It's something most ppl cannot deal with directly, and religion provides a crutch to them. the more adherent a person is to their myth dogma, the more fear they have. The truly adamant followers usually turn out to be the most dangerous. These are truly fearful and desperate ppl., and in the end, your NOT believing as they do infringes on their well being. You must be addressed. You will not be left alone by this sort of person/sect.


It is nice, though, isn't it? Keeping your identity when you die. I love how theists play this card. I hate when they say shit like:

"Your an atheist? Well that's shit - you die and that's it!" 

For all you theists out there: 

Atheists go some where better than your eternal heaven. Eternal? That sounds like a curse more than anything. If you can't die you have no purpose for yourself and that to me is a curse. 
*
Atoms never die...*
My heaven is a much better place - when I die, each and every one of my atoms will be rearranged, used; my body decompose into other chemicals - the same chemicals that make up everything in our universe. Argo I become part of you and every one of our ancestors. Isn't it exciting the same hydrogen atoms that are in you could have been part of Benjamin Franklin, Martin Luther King, Thomas Edison, Charles Darwin, Issac Newton, Gregor Mendel, Socrates, and even.....Carl Sagan sad?

Atheists don't live forever? We sure fucking do and we will always. Sure we lose our identity, but the trade off is we become part of space time. That to me is a better place then your superstition.....


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## WelcomeToTheWest (Jan 16, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> [youtube]-8oAGvFxevw[/youtube]
> 
> Shut Up And Vote


Amen brother, Amen!


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## WelcomeToTheWest (Jan 16, 2010)

"If He-Man is the master of the universe, who is this God fellow and why is he so unoriginal?"


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 16, 2010)

He's the money manger.

Shut Up And Vote


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## justinbars (Jan 16, 2010)

*trying to remember what i learned in my junior high science classes*
just because the big bang points to a beginning of this universe doesn't automatically point to creation, god and a plan (do not even see where a plan comes in that you spoke of). what if the concentrated mass that the big bang was based around was from another universe prior that had collapsed on itself, and this is just one of the cycles the universe goes through? even though this example was made up on the spot and has no evidence, it shows that there are still plenty of other ideas and explanations out there that we need more information to either prove or disprove. We do not know enough about the universe yet to make generalization like that, we still have a long way to go until we can start to make theories about the origins of our universe


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## morgentaler (Jan 16, 2010)

justinbars said:


> *trying to remember what i learned in my junior high science classes*
> just because science shows that the big bang was this beginning to this universe doesn't mean that the big bang was the complete beginning. who's to say that the concentrated mass that the big bang came from isn't from another universe prior that had collapsed on itself, and this is just one of the cycles the universe goes through. science doesn't know enough information about the universe yet to make rash generalization like that


It doesn't.

The teacher may not have understood the material, the material may not have been accurate (depending on the state there can be really ignorant people deciding what goes in textbooks), and it's possible you just weren't paying careful attention to what was being taught. 

Inflation and Expansion (the Big Bang) is the concept that is supported by most of the current evidence. It only determines how our universe as it is took shape. It makes no claim as to what happened before. With the information we currently have, anything before inflation is purely speculation and probability.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 16, 2010)

But it has been proposed that there are alternate universes, and that a tear may occur and through that tear, an inflation begins (our universe). 
This then leads to the speculation that our universe may one day tear, and start another universe ... maybe there is a domino universe game going on. 

These are such large scale issues that there is a distinct probability man and his science will NOT understand what is truly happening before extinction. Certainly it will not be answered before any posters extinction . One must accept it.


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## justinbars (Jan 17, 2010)

morgentaler said:


> It doesn't.
> 
> The teacher may not have understood the material, the material may not have been accurate (depending on the state there can be really ignorant people deciding what goes in textbooks), and it's possible you just weren't paying careful attention to what was being taught.
> 
> Inflation and Expansion (the Big Bang) is the concept that is supported by most of the current evidence. It only determines how our universe as it is took shape. It makes no claim as to what happened before. With the information we currently have, anything before inflation is purely speculation and probability.


I said "who's to say", kind of like a "what if". anything after the "whos to say" is just a hypothetical example i made up on the spot based off of information i learned in school helping prove my point that we don't know enough about the universe to make generalizations about a god being the creator. i didn't mean to imply that i learned that the big bang was part of a universe cycle or anything like that or that what i said had any evidence behind it. (ill edit it to match my thoughts better)


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 17, 2010)

justinbars said:


> I said "who's to say", kind of like a "what if". anything after the "whos to say" is just a hypothetical example i made up on the spot based off of information i learned in school helping prove my point that we don't know enough about the universe to make generalizations about a god being the creator.



IT is hard defending your (any) beliefs.

Shut Up And Vote


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## CrackerJax (Jan 17, 2010)

On the contrary, beliefs based on science are EASILY defended.

Beliefs based on myth is NOT defensible AT ALL. 

See the difference?


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 17, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> On the contrary, beliefs based on science are EASILY defended.



most believe science is not real and carry real stones.

Shut Up And Vote


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## justinbars (Jan 17, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> most believe science is not real and carry stones.
> 
> Shut Up And Vote


yeah i was surprised to learn that yesterday. watch Jesus Camp, it shows you the radical evangelical christians we have in america.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 17, 2010)

That's right ... popularity of a myth doesn't have any bearing on its being correct. 

Only science is verifiable.


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## WelcomeToTheWest (Jan 17, 2010)

justinbars said:


> we still have a long way to go until we can start to make theories about the origins of our universe


Origins to me don't really matter - in the now does. 

Do you know what our planet is involved in right now? Take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfTq0aVHkF0

Your avatar reminded me about our most precious star, the sun. I love the sun so much - without it, we wouldn't be here. As you can see, our solar system is bouncing through the milky way like a ball falling down an endless hole. The heliosphere was created by our sun's magnetic force.
Without it, we wouldn't be part of this galaxy. You wouldn't be you. So stop thanking God and thank the Sun you are alive.

Thank the stars - you share the same atoms as them Jesus didn't die for you, a star did and there's physical proof of that.


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## WelcomeToTheWest (Jan 17, 2010)

....to add to the moment.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fql0Wm1w1K4&feature=fvw


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## morgentaler (Jan 17, 2010)

justinbars said:


> I said "who's to say", kind of like a "what if". anything after the "whos to say" is just a hypothetical example i made up on the spot based off of information i learned in school helping prove my point that we don't know enough about the universe to make generalizations about a god being the creator. i didn't mean to imply that i learned that the big bang was part of a universe cycle or anything like that or that what i said had any evidence behind it. (ill edit it to match my thoughts better)


No worries. Those were just three possibilities of why information might be presented like that.


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## morgentaler (Jan 17, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> But it has been proposed that there are alternate universes, and that a tear may occur and through that tear, an inflation begins (our universe).
> This then leads to the speculation that our universe may one day tear, and start another universe ... maybe there is a domino universe game going on.


And as more data is collected the hypothetical becomes the theoretical, the possible becomes the probable, and we have ourselves a new understanding.
Yay, science!


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## morgentaler (Jan 17, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> most believe science is not real


Only when it suits them.
They'll use indoor plumbing, sanitation, medicine, computers, phones, etc. as long as it's all convenient for them and doesn't threaten their belief in SkyGod Crankypants.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 17, 2010)

To be religious is to be a hypocrite. It's built in.


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## anhedonia (Jan 20, 2010)

A fun vid. Enjoy.

[youtube]hnn3wmni46w[/youtube]


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 21, 2010)

[youtube]KG10O204lEg[/youtube]

Asked the shaman building the underground spaceship.


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## PadawanBater (Jan 21, 2010)

OK, so we've been over the "proof" part of a gods existence... Not really much in that dept., and there is a reason (not yet understood by the majority of believers) why one must depend upon *faith* to believe in it...

But what about the "purpose for mankind" bit?! - I'd love for someone to try to get 7 billion people to agree on that one... 

What could that possibly even be? I doubt you could get *2 people* to agree on what God's purpose for mankind would be exactly. Purpose is subjective. Your purpose is not the same as my purpose. We create, identify and pursue our own individual purposes.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 21, 2010)

The only purpose is to stay alive as a species. Just like everything else. No plan, no perfection. 

It's a blood planet.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 21, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> The only purpose is to stay alive as a *Sack Of Genes*


Shut Up And Vote


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## mr.red (Jan 21, 2010)

Procreation!


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 22, 2010)

Believe Us.

Unless a ravenous horde of dwarf-goblin grave robbers have gotten there first.

They would have had to have stolen most of our posts from RIU, and the number is pretty constant.

Ye Olde Mind Phuckers Unite!

.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 23, 2010)

How exactly are those feelings conveyed?

[youtube]jYndsW7lTXc&NR[/youtube]

Ever wonder where the paranoia feels from?

Ye Olde Mind Phuckers Unite!



Public Hippie Tips:

Is convey similar to replicate?
Can Good Spirits Replicate?
What is a Good Spirit?
What is a Spiritual Machine?


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## CrackerJax (Jan 23, 2010)

Those aren't tips ... they are questions.

See the difference? <------ that's a question mark, used for interrogatives.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 23, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> [youtube]4dvTAENxK_4&NR[/youtube]





Woodstock.Hippie said:


> Nothing Is Repeated Over And Over.
> When IT's Gone, IT's Gone.
> That is why much seems disconnected.
> Did You Feel That One?




Ye Olde Mind Phuckers Unite!


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## CrackerJax (Jan 23, 2010)

And basic understanding is for adults. Go sit in the corner while the grown ups talk.

[youtube]01USG9xpnhE[/youtube]


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 23, 2010)

Can We watch and learn while We sit in quietly peaceful awareness of
*
The Tomb Of Pheron?*

[youtube]CW6d9jGJfbY[/youtube]



Woodstock.Hippie said:


> Did You Feel That One?


*Apparently not.*

Shut Up And Vote


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## CrackerJax (Jan 23, 2010)

Perhaps you'd be better off in the music section. Ur off topic (as usual)


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 23, 2010)

Shut Up And Vote


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## CrackerJax (Jan 23, 2010)

Well, this isn't the music thread .... so figure it out.

Take ur meds.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 23, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> Take ur meds.


Now what?

 Shut Up And Vote


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 24, 2010)

Partially documented and buried in archeological order here within RIU's Tombs Of Pheron, except may we add, for the stuff deleted by the deletors.

[youtube]Dm6lJ_SxyXs&NR[/youtube]

www.phishphans.org
 
The Elite Rolling Society must still be broken.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 24, 2010)

[youtube]18_fHXGCfYY&NR[/youtube]

Even if the phucking deletors are hard at IT again.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 24, 2010)

There are threads for music ... use them.

Try and stay focused on the most basic.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 24, 2010)

k

ever heard of the new age new world book of eli?

[youtube]tGE_zSdCzDU[/youtube]


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## CrackerJax (Jan 24, 2010)

Ur such a consumer.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 25, 2010)

[youtube]H5G4GJL2mjY[/youtube]

"
*I'm up, and I can take what you give**
I'm here, but I don't want you to live
with me, cause all I want is a taste
for free
* 
*I'm down, and I will drag you along and
around, until you burst into song and
unwind,* and leave your new life behind for a while *
I'm out, and I will stay here alone*
*and without, someone controlled by the phone
and TV, 'cause what it's doing to me
is fine, 'cause I can see through the lines*

*step into space*
*alter my place
that someone else made
* *why I have stayed
into things I could be
or if I could see
* *into fog that surrounds
*and pins me to the ground
*
I can see through the lines *
"

Phish Phans org anizations everywhere unite!

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004084452_webstarbucks20m.html?syndication=rss


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## CrackerJax (Jan 25, 2010)

Cya, I'm done here. 

Enough jacking of the thread for my taste.

I have more manners I suppose.

Bye.


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## mindphuk (Jan 25, 2010)

Hippie, would you quit spamming this thread!


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## Sure Shot (Jan 27, 2010)

It's spam if there is a consensus it's spam.
Just like those bible thumper pamphlets.


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## Leothwyn (Jan 27, 2010)

Yep, it's spam. Time for me to unsubscribe too.


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## PadawanBater (Jan 27, 2010)

Where did all the bible thumpers go?


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 27, 2010)

A pin drops loudly to the floor.

[youtube]e7ixKWmYux8[/youtube]

How many lifetimes would the original Hippies of Woodstock Industries wait to give such a *"high signs" *of a lifetime?


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Feb 7, 2010)

[youtube]iBc1XDZQntE[/youtube][youtube]fQf9NhU0yNw[/youtube]

Remember how [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_St._Peter"]St. Peter Was Crucified?[/URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_St._Peter


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## PadawanBater (Feb 7, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> [youtube]iBc1XDZQntE[/youtube][youtube]fQf9NhU0yNw[/youtube]
> 
> Remember how St. Peter Was Crucified?


Does anyone get this?

Hippie, wtf is the point of posting youtube music videos in threads like these? 

If you wrote something in the posts, like some kind of direction you want the reader to go in, ANYTHING, it would be fine. But this is getting kind of irritating and unacceptable... Post SUBSTANCE. People don't come here to see music videos, and none of them have any relevance to this conversation.

I know I'm not the only one who would appreciate it.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Feb 7, 2010)

PadawanBater said:


> Hippie, wtf is the point of posting youtube music videos in threads like these?
> 
> If you wrote something in the posts, like some kind of direction you want the reader to go in, ANYTHING, it would be fine. But this is getting kind of irritating and unacceptable... Post SUBSTANCE.




Thank you for the suggestion, Padawan.

We put very much substance into each and every post, not counting lyrics.

Alas, much is lost to many.

Must we make readers go in a direction?

IT seems that is all the arguing is all about, and why it is so pointless.

WHY MUST YOU FORCE YOUR WILL ON OTHERS TO MAKE THEM BELIEVE AS YOU?

Padawan, the substance for you in the previous post is this.

"How do you specifically, Young PadawanBater, interpret an inverted cross?"

There are thousands of unanswered, yet substantive questions in these tombs.

Many questions are too deep for much comfort

then come the insults as a quick diversion from misunderstanding.


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## mexiblunt (Feb 7, 2010)

Remember how St. Peter Was Crucified?

lots of substance if your really looking.


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## PadawanBater (Feb 7, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> Thank you for the suggestion, Padawan.
> 
> We put very much substance into each and every post, not counting lyrics.
> 
> ...



OK, but how am I supposed to know the question you're asking if I must interpret it through some abstract medium?

Speak with your own words, your own thoughts. That is the point.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Feb 7, 2010)

PadawanBater said:


> Speak with your own words, your own thoughts. That is the point.




Who said YOU are supposed to recognize a question through some abstract medium?

If you do, then it is so for your own personal reasons that IT has become apparent to you.

If you do not, then you are being attracted to some other component of the message found more relevant for immediate grasping.

Sometimes taking time and breathing deep while wandering a guided path while actually observing the flora and fauna and smelling the flowers and turning over interesting stones actually can yield great insight.

Telling others your unsolicited advice with your own ears closed is not often an effective method of communication. 

Volumes can be spoken, but little actually bridges the gulf to other minds.

PadawanBater, what do you believe regarding the substance behind an inverted cross?

You have yet to answer, my young friend.

[youtube]kPG6WJfQ1Lc[/youtube]


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## morgentaler (Feb 8, 2010)

Padawan, just do like the rest of us.
Click ignore. Move on 

Don't get sucked into the super-secret-pseudo-philosophical-circle-jerk.


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## UNICRONLIVES (Feb 8, 2010)

YOU FUCKERS JUST MADE MY HEAD HURT!!!! WAY TO GO BUZZ KILL McGEE'S!!! LOL


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## morgentaler (Feb 8, 2010)

UNICRONLIVES said:


> YOU FUCKERS JUST MADE MY HEAD HURT!!!! WAY TO GO BUZZ KILL McGEE'S!!! LOL


It's okay. Your brain is like a muscle. The more you use it, the less it will hurt


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## UNICRONLIVES (Feb 8, 2010)

YEA but i aint taken no chances!!!


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Feb 8, 2010)

[youtube]jPn4v9Ak55Q[/youtube][youtube]AT9S9B70XDo[/youtube]


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## Johan Liebert (Feb 17, 2010)

The Universe is not just things...it is the space between. Matter does not get destroyed (unless it comes into contact with antimatter) and as such, even matter which breaks apart into its most basic atoms, and nothing which we would consider "things" were floating through space, it would still be "the Universe." In that sense, it has no beginning, nor end. There are plenty of valid, intellectually stimulating theories regarding what set off the explosion (big bang) which led to the state of things as they are now. But the idea that we are reversing our maps and patterns to try and trace it all back to the beginning, and trying to use that to explain away some big firecracker set off by a presence which is now no longer present is sort of silly.

My understanding is that now the theory involves something cyclical. There has never been anything to support the idea of a creator other than hearsay from people who themselves don't know. If you set out looking for a creator, or even considering it as a possibility, you're going to wind up with ideas pointing that way. But if one exists, it should simply be discovered like everything else. When we find it, I'll eat my hat. Until then I have nothing to fear in heaven.


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