# First time hydro, going to try Ebb/Flow - is this a reasonable plan?



## Larry3215 (Feb 2, 2018)

Hello everyone! I am hoping to get some feedback on my first ever hydro plans. Im in the final weeks of my first MJ grow in soil and its going pretty well. I have decided that I want to try a hydro grow next time around.

After tons of reading, I have decided to try an ebb/flow setup with two plants in scrog. My grow tent is roughly 7 sq ft (28”x38”x48”tall) and I have a 300 watts LED light fixture using 3500k Solstrips (the same led’s as in Quantum Boards).

I have read a ton of threads and one common problem is heat in the rez from submersible water pumps. In order to reduce the heating problem, I am going to use an air driven water pump instead of a submersible, mechanical pump. I can mount the air pump remotely and cool it with a fan, so hopefully I wont have heat issues.

Im going to have two interconnected 5 gal totes as grow buckets filled with hydroton. They will be connected in series with the water entering one and draining from the other one. The rez is going to be another 17 gal tote with at least 3 DIY air stones. It will be under the table the tent is sitting on.

Im going to try Mega Crop for nutes.

Attached is a rough sketch of the layout. I have done some ‘wet’ trial runs and it takes roughly 15 minutes to fill and about 1 minute to drain using the automatic siphon – no electrical timers needed. The air lift pump runs full time. As soon as the 5 gal totes get to the preset fill level, the siphon trips and drains back into the rez and the cycle starts all over. Those times are based on just water in the totes. I haven’t tested with them full of hydroton, so the final times may be a bit different, but I expect the same ratio of fill time to drain time. I can adjust the fill and drain times by tweaking the siphon and air lift pump rates, so there is some flexibility.

Anyway, I love to get some feedback, advice, suggestions, criticisms, raspberries, etc. A lot of my reading and research has been on this forum, so I already owe you guys a bunch of thanks!


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## JSB99 (Feb 6, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Hello everyone! I am hoping to get some feedback on my first ever hydro plans. Im in the final weeks of my first MJ grow in soil and its going pretty well. I have decided that I want to try a hydro grow next time around.
> 
> After tons of reading, I have decided to try an ebb/flow setup with two plants in scrog. My grow tent is roughly 7 sq ft (28”x38”x48”tall) and I have a 300 watts LED light fixture using 3500k Solstrips (the same led’s as in Quantum Boards).
> 
> ...


The following is just constructive criticism

I would keep your first hydro grow much more simple, until you've gotten your hands wet (pun intended ). Try something like a couple individual bubbling buckets at first. Very simple method with awesome results!

It looks like you've put a lot of thought into your design. But here's the thing, you might be trying to reinvent the wheel. If you browse around, you may not see others using some of the concepts you've laid out. This may be because others have tried and didn't get the results they wanted. If you want to have the most success with your initial hydro grow, follow the standards that the experienced growers go by. If you find someone who's been growing for years with their hydro system, that's where you should be getting your ideas from.

Hydro can be a finicky bitch, so I wouldn't make it any more challenging than it has to be. At least not at first.


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## Gquebed (Feb 6, 2018)

Totes instead of a big table? 
Very interesting... 

I wonder what advanatges there might be to this? Just cost savings? Or is there more behind this?

I would agree with the above though... before you go all out with this it might be best to do a run or two with dwc bucket to get the fundamentals of hydro down. And that experience may tweak your design plans...


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## rkymtnman (Feb 6, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> 48”tall


you aren't going to have much room for a plant in there. your ebb/flow design's got to be 24" tall ? and a bit of space for the leds and then a bit of space b/t leds and plant tops.


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## JSB99 (Feb 6, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> you aren't going to have much room for a plant in there. your ebb/flow design's got to be 24" tall ? and a bit of space for the leds and then a bit of space b/t leds and plant tops.


I missed those dimensions. A small dwc might work, but with that amount of space, I'd just do soil or coco. With hydro, you're going to run into heat issues with your water anyways.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 6, 2018)

JSB99 said:


> The following is just constructive criticism
> 
> I would keep your first hydro grow much more simple, until you've gotten your hands wet (pun intended ). Try something like a couple individual bubbling buckets at first. Very simple method with awesome results!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the help and advice!

I looked at Waterfarms, DWC buckets, hempy buckets, NFT, etc etc. I really liked the idea behind ebb/flow, but decided it was going to be a bit too complex and $$, so I had decided to do a DWC bucket instead. Waterfarms and hempy buckets and other simpler techniques just didnt run my motor.

But, then I ran across several videos on (non weed) hydroponics during my searches, that made me change my mind about how difficult and complex ebb/flow was or needed to be. The key thing being that you really do not need any timers, float switches or submersible pumps to do fully automatic ebb/flow. Plus you can do it for significantly less cost and with higher reliability. The only serious failure point being the air pump, which I could replace with a quick trip to the pet store if needed. Another plus being that, with no mechanical pump in the rez, I am hoping my water temps will stay in the proper range with out needing a chiller of any type. 

Turns out growers all over the world have been using these techniques (automatic siphons and airlift pumps) for decades. Automatic siphons have been in wide spread use since the early 1900's at least, and airlift pumps have been around since people started using aquariums, and building backyard ponds. 


You are correct though, for some reason, they are not being used in growing weed. At least, I have not seen anyone else doing it this way.

I should also point out that growing in soil is working just fine for me, but its boring. The idea of trying a "hi-tech" growing method like hydro , and especially ebb/flow gets me much more interested and brings out my inner geek and makes me want to experiment and try things out. Thats the real reason for this experiment. I expect to get enough yield from my soil grow to last me at least 6 months, so Im not that worried about blowing it on this grow and I have plenty of seeds to last me through at least several more grows.

So, yeah, there is a good chance I will blow this badly and ruin an entire crop, but I will have a bunch of fun in the process. If I do fail, Im pretty confident it wont be because of the siphons or airlift pumps. So far, that all looks to be very reliable.


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## JSB99 (Feb 6, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Thanks for the help and advice!
> 
> I looked at Waterfarms, DWC buckets, hempy buckets, NFT, etc etc. I really liked the idea behind ebb/flow, but decided it was going to be a bit too complex and $$, so I had decided to do a DWC bucket instead. Waterfarms and hempy buckets and other simpler techniques just didnt run my motor.
> 
> ...


I hear ya. I built different hydro systems in my first couple years, then ended up right back where I started, with DWC. If you can get a bigger tent, I think you'd find it much easier.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 6, 2018)

Gquebed said:


> Totes instead of a big table?
> Very interesting...
> 
> I wonder what advanatges there might be to this? Just cost savings? Or is there more behind this?
> ...


The main reason for two smaller totes, instead of one large one, is so I can grow two different types at the same time without having the roots get all mixed together. That way, if one finishes flowering sooner than the other, I can harvest it without leaving roots behind to die mixed in with the other plant.

Thanks for the feedback!!!


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## Larry3215 (Feb 6, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> you aren't going to have much room for a plant in there. your ebb/flow design's got to be 24" tall ? and a bit of space for the leds and then a bit of space b/t leds and plant tops.


My drawing wasnt very clear on that point. My grow tent sits on top of a table 30" up off the floor. The only part of the ebb/flow equipment thats going to be inside the tent is the two small totes with hydroton, and most of them will be below the table the tent sits on. Im going to cut holes in my work bench to recess the two totes so most of the tote is below the bench top. The totes wil only stick up about 2" to 3" inside the tent, so I will have at least 45" total height to work with. I am only growing relatively short strains so far, so that should work out ok. That will also help with heating of the water. My tent stays in the 72 to 79 deg range, which is too hot for the water from what I have read.

Thanks!


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## Larry3215 (Feb 6, 2018)

JSB99 said:


> I missed those dimensions. A small dwc might work, but with that amount of space, I'd just do soil or coco. With hydro, you're going to run into heat issues with your water anyways.


Im hoping to avoid the heat issues with this setup. By not having a submersible pump in the rez - or anywhere - that should help a lot. Plus keeping most of the grow pots under the table top will help too. Im also going to insulate around the sides and top of the totes on the parts that are inside the tent.

Im hoping all of that will eliminate any hot water issues. I wont know for sure until I can set it all up and let it run with the lights turned on full though. That will have to wait a few more weeks until this grow is done.

If I do have heating problems, then I will have to re-think the whole thing. I really dont want to mess with chillers.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 6, 2018)

JSB99 said:


> I hear ya. I built different hydro systems in my first couple years, then ended up right back where I started, with DWC. If you can get a bigger tent, I think you'd find it much easier.


Yeah, I wish I had more room, but Im stuck with this size. The wife wont give up any more inside space to my smelly hobby!


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## Budley Doright (Feb 7, 2018)

I found my 400 gph adds about 3-4 degrees f to water temp. While it is possible to grow with out a chiller, I would highly recommend one, more so if growing in hot climates, but like I said you can get away with it, once I get over 70 shit starts to happen and growth suffers. Sharing the same res with differentl strains is also not recommended due to different needs but can be done. Just go ahead and do it, it's the best way to learn. You find out pretty quick what needs to be corrected. I to switched to hydro with only the basics and pretty much went right to ebb and flow. Spent the whole time waiting for the girls to die lol. The air pump may not provide the needed flow to keep fresh water going to all the plants but again try it and see. Nice concept .


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## Larry3215 (Feb 7, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> I found my 400 gph adds about 3-4 degrees f to water temp. While it is possible to grow with out a chiller, I would highly recommend one, more so if growing in hot climates, but like I said you can get away with it, once I get over 70 shit starts to happen and growth suffers. *Sharing the same res with differentl strains is also not recommended due to different needs but can be done.* Just go ahead and do it, it's the best way to learn. You find out pretty quick what needs to be corrected. I to switched to hydro with only the basics and pretty much went right to ebb and flow. Spent the whole time waiting for the girls to die lol. The air pump may not provide the needed flow to keep fresh water going to all the plants but again try it and see. Nice concept .


LOL!! I know that feeling of "I'm gonna wake up and they will all be dead" very well!! 

Ive been a little concerned about that aspect of running two different strains too. Im running Northern Lights and Critical CBD (both from Nirvana fem seeds) in soil at the moment - 2 pots of each. Im 3 weeks into flower, and while it hasnt been really serious, there has definitely been some of that going on with this grow. For example, right now one of the CBD's is showing some signs of tacoing leaves, and one of the NL's has just the faintest hint of yellowing leaf tips, but the other two look almost perfect. Im going to ignore both problem plants unless it gets worse.

Now that you have reminded me of this problem, I will probably just run a single strain on this next grow. I had wanted to pick which ever one of these current plants I Like best and run it with the freebie seeds Im getting, but I think I will just stick with the freebies. Im going to have enough meds from this grow to last me until next fall probably, so I think I can afford to go with a single strain.

This time of year, my grow room stays right around 65 deg or less, so Im still hoping I dont have any heating issues with the rez water. We will have to see on that though. I dont plan to grow in the summer at all. I'll wait until it cools off again next fall.

Thanks for the reminder and the tips!!


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## Larry3215 (Feb 7, 2018)

Oh - almost forgot to address your other concern about the air lift pump flow rate. 

Thats my least worry at the moment, but your comment has me wondering if I missed something? 

So far Ive only tested it with a single tote with no hydroton in the tote, so Im pumping 5 gallons of water total on each ebb/flow cycle. Im assuming that the hydroton will displace roughly 1/2 the volume in the totes once I add it, plus the roots will take up a good bit of the volume too after they get going. So, once things get started, I should actually be pumping under 5 gals on each cycle.

In my tests so far, Im able to pump 5 gals in just under 10 minutes, and Im pretty sure I can get that down to closer to 5 minutes with a few more small tweeks. At ten minutes fill time, and a 3 minute drain time, thats a cycle rate of a little better than 4 times per hour. Im pretty sure I can get that up to maybe 6 or 7 times per hour pretty easily.

Is that not fast enough?

I was actually thinking I might be better off slowing it down some. Ive read several threads where people are only cycling every few hours, and others that cycle much faster. I was kind of thinking it really isnt all that critical how fast the cycles are. Between Waterfarms, DWC, hempy buckets and NFT, the amount of time roots spend in water is all over the place. 

As far as going slower, the limiting factor so far is the automatic siphon. If the fill rate is too slow, the siphon has a hard time 'tripping'. So far, Ive managed to get the fill time down to around 30 minutes and still have the siphon trip reliably. There is one more variation on the siphon I want to test that may allow me to slow it down some more, but I cant test that very well until I get the totes mounted where they will end up. The relative heights of the totes and rez also effect drain and fill times, so I need to eliminate that variable first. 

In any case, if it doesnt trip, then the totes end up full of water and dont drain, so thats a bad thing. Im not toooo worried about that happening as long as I catch it before too long. At worst, I think it would be like running an RDWC with the roots in the water full time, except that I will have much higher % of roots in the water. As long as the air lift pump is running, I will have aerated water circulating through the roots at between 5 and 30 gals/hour. Im going to keep the max water level about 2"-3" below the tops of the totes, so hopefuly, that will also help keep the roots from drowning if the siphon doesnt trip.

It just occurred to me that keeping the water level down 2"-3" will also reduce the volume of water I'm pumping and speed up cycle times even more.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 7, 2018)

It just occurred to me - if they dont work out, I could easily modify the auto siphons and just turn this into an RDWC setup. All I need to do is change the siphons into a simple overflow drain which sets the max water level.


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## Budley Doright (Feb 7, 2018)

It sounds like u gave this a lot of thought, way more than I did when I started lol. I'm still trying to figure out what type of setup I'm running next, going to change to seperate pails and possibly RDWC, DTW, or Recirc drip, so many options lol.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 7, 2018)

I have been back and forth over this, and changed my mind many many times over the last several weeks. The way I finally started to narrow it down was to make a list of the things that were important to me and that I Liked about each different option.

1) cost - Im retired and on a fixed (not enough) income.
2) Draining and filling the rez had to be easy. I did not want to use a pump to do that, so that meant raising the rez high enough to get a 4 or 5 gal bucket under the drain. Plus the rez had to be positioned so it was easy to fill.
3) I wanted a setup that did not need a water chiller or submersible pumps or store bought air stones (I make my own) or float valves or timers - mostly for cost reasons.
4) It had to be hydro of some sort.

Then I went through the various options and made a list of things I didnt like about them and things I did. I finally decided that ebb and flow was what I really wanted, but it was going to be too expensive to setup, so it was going to be DWC, with an air driven drip. More or less like a waterfarm but with some minor mods.

While I was researching better air driven water pumps, I ran across the info on the automatic siphons and the improved air lift pump. Thats when I realized I could do ebb and flow on the cheap - about the same cost as doing a DWC or waterfarm.


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## Budley Doright (Feb 8, 2018)

I figure I have about $100 invested in each of my actual grow containers. That's withou the chiller and passive cooling systems, yes im pretty cheap as well lol. Chiller cost $225 all in, and two hours to build but my passive cooling is a tad more complexed, but it has the capabilities to do both water and air using chiller as second stage. I love to build shit and while I have great results with my setup I need to change. I can leave my set up for a week, but yes if the pump fails I have 2 days to notice before plants suffer. I use a stack tote setup with 6 in each. As you begin there will be things you'll tweak, that's the fun part and possibly more cost, not so fun lol.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 8, 2018)

Thats about what Im going to have in this setup for the basic hardware and the hydroton. About $45 for totes and plumbing fittings and hoses, $35 for the airpump and $25 for hydroton.

Do you have details anywhere about your chiller and passive cooling system? Id love to read up on that stuff.

It occurred to me last night that I can reduce heating in the water even more if I can seal up the top of the totes around the stem of the plants and work it out so that the air comes into the hydroton from under the table instead of the grow tent. If I only have one plant per tote, and do a scrog, that will be pretty easy. If I do a SOG, that may not be practical.


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## Budley Doright (Feb 8, 2018)

The chiller is a window shaker that I replaced the evap coil with a water coil (tube in tube). Probably not a DIY type of build but I'm a refrig mechanic. I looked at buying an actual chiller but the cost for a new one (10,000 btu) was triple or more . My passive chiller is a 200' underground glycol loop that use tube in tube heat exchangers to chill the res water, pumps are cycled using digital aqua stats. As soon as it warms up a bit I'll head out and take some pics of the setup. All of my heating, humidity and ventilation is controled by a wifi stat as well, I like to tinker lol. I've shut the grow down since last spring but plan on plugging it in again as soon as my seed order arrives, been really busy and still have lots left from the outdoor grow


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## Budley Doright (Feb 8, 2018)

I like to keep my canopy/room at about 78 so I need to chill my water which I find 66/67 to be just about perfect for a healthy root mass. I did keep the room cooler without the chiller and yup it grew plants but things did suffer and the root mass was compromised when temps got warmer.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 8, 2018)

LOL! Yeah, your setup is a bit beyond what I am willing to tackle, but very cool! Thanks for sharing.

I was thinking about possibly using a small, used under cabinet reffer or one of those electric ice chests as a starting point if I needed to chill my water. I could run the water line between my rez and the air lift pump through either one pretty easily.


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## Budley Doright (Feb 8, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> LOL! Yeah, your setup is a bit beyond what I am willing to tackle, but very cool! Thanks for sharing.
> 
> I was thinking about possibly using a small, used under cabinet reffer or one of those electric ice chests as a starting point if I needed to chill my water. I could run the water line between my rez and the air lift pump through either one pretty easily.


If it was me I would keep an eye out for a used aquarium chiller, I honestly think it's the one best investments if using a flooded root setup.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 8, 2018)

Thanks for the suggestion! That reminded me about thermometric modules and when I checked just now, I see that prices on them have come way down from the last time I checked - a few decades ago.

I have an old electric icechest, but I might get in trouble if I tear it apart. My wife likes it on lng trips. 

If I need to do some cooling, I will DIY my own chiller using these or something similar.

https://www.amazon.com/Glamorway-TEC1-12706-Thermoelectric-Cooling-Peltier/dp/B00IKDL22O/ref=pd_sim_328_4?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00IKDL22O&pd_rd_r=0XF2JEFZM2JKG86Z5AFJ&pd_rd_w=uSAWJ&pd_rd_wg=oSJQ9&psc=1&refRID=0XF2JEFZM2JKG86Z5AFJ

They can be found other places for a lot less.


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## Smok3yMcChok3y (Feb 9, 2018)

I started with standard 2x2 ebb tables. I found the headroom limits in my tent kept pushing me back to dwc. You are trying to scrog so maybe you'll be ok but that was my limit. I'm not too sure why the auto siphon and all that? Why not just fill to a tip drain and after a 15 minute flood cycle let the water return to res through the pump? It's what I did and the original water pump still runs to help me drain my res now 8 years later...


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## Budley Doright (Feb 9, 2018)

I would be very careful about the thermal electric modules. They are power hogs and offer very little cooling but I have no experience other than running the numbers which add up to low efficiency. But in saying that the investment is small enough that it would be a cool (lol) test. Also keep in mind that the heat removed will be added to the room unless the res is located outside the grow. I keep my chiller remote from the room and pipe in


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## Budley Doright (Feb 9, 2018)

Smok3yMcChok3y said:


> I started with standard 2x2 ebb tables. I found the headroom limits in my tent kept pushing me back to dwc. You are trying to scrog so maybe you'll be ok but that was my limit. I'm not too sure why the auto siphon and all that? Why not just fill to a tip drain and after a 15 minute flood cycle let the water return to res through the pump? It's what I did and the original water pump still runs to help me drain my res now 8 years later...


That's exactly what I do and yup that has a height limiting effect, my pump is also getting up there in years lol


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## Larry3215 (Feb 9, 2018)

Smok3yMcChok3y said:


> I started with standard 2x2 ebb tables. I found the headroom limits in my tent kept pushing me back to dwc. You are trying to scrog so maybe you'll be ok but that was my limit. I'm not too sure why the auto siphon and all that? Why not just fill to a tip drain and after a 15 minute flood cycle let the water return to res through the pump? It's what I did and the original water pump still runs to help me drain my res now 8 years later...


I could easily do that with this setup - but - it would require the addition of a timer.

I could do a cheap mechanical timer on the air pump which drives my air lift pump. That would only cost maybe $6-$7.

On the other hand, changing a standard overflow drain tube into an automatic siphon costs at most $2 in plumbing fittings and eliminates any need for timers. The automatic siphon IS the timer. Since it has no moving parts its one less failure point.

In all honesty, the difference in cost is minor. It adds a little to my over all savings, but its not really the main point for me. I mostly just think its a cool idea with a few added benefits, thats super easy to do, and has no negatives that I can see.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 9, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> I would be very careful about the thermal electric modules. They are power hogs and offer very little cooling but I have no experience other than running the numbers which add up to low efficiency. But in saying that the investment is small enough that it would be a cool (lol) test. Also keep in mind that the heat removed will be added to the room unless the res is located outside the grow. I keep my chiller remote from the room and pipe in


Those aquarium coolers you mentioned above use the exact same tech, so thats where I got the idea. I suspect they use better modules, but as you say, at less than $2 ea shipped, these are cheap enough to experiment with. I already have power supplies and heat sinks, thermal paste, etc, so the cost to play with it will be minor.

Also, yes, the rez will be outside the grow area, plus Im now planning to draw air into the grow totes from the outside rather than the grow tent.

I'm still hoping I wont need to do anything as far as chilling, but we will see..


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## Smok3yMcChok3y (Feb 9, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> I could easily do that with this setup - but - it would require the addition of a timer.
> 
> I could do a cheap mechanical timer on the air pump which drives my air lift pump. That would only cost maybe $6-$7.
> 
> ...


But what your going to do is a perpetual flood drain then restart cycle. That Seems unnecessary. when I did flood tables I only flooded 5 or 6 times a day for 15 mins each cycle. You wouldn't want your table flooded during lights out for instance. Either way timers are cheap and you should own a few of them. Also what makes you think the cycle wouldnt be broken by substrate encroachment. If you flood a table full of hydroton to a level higher than your pebbles sitting when dry they will float around. And you're going to mess with root mass stability keeping your babies vertical. And if you flood lower than the hydroton level how can you feel.confident that the pebbles won't mess with the siphon? I'd trust a pump over a passive siphon any day. If you choose to go the passive siphon route please keep us updated as I'm intrigued by the thought of it. Jist seems like you're fixing something that ain't broke.

Edit: I saw you are looking at nirvana seeds. I've run wonder woman for years and love her. I've run her snow white white rhino and am finishing out some mango skunk now. I didn't like the fluff of the snow white and white rhino strains but am digging mango. So just food for thought


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## Larry3215 (Feb 9, 2018)

My plan is to only flood up to about 2" below the top of the hydroton. As far as the hydroton blocking the siphon, there are a number of ways to prevent that. The easiest is a simple guard around the siphon with holes or slots cut in it that are smaller than the hydroton. The guard will be open at the top and extend up through the hydroton, so I can check it periodically to see if roots have gotten inside, clean it out, etc.

As I said before, these automatic siphons have been in wide spread use in general hydroponics applications, all over the world, since the early 1900's at least. That includes large scale commercial hydro growers. Those guys dont want to mess with dozens of timers scattered all over a huge hydro farm and the increased failure potential. Most of them recommend them because they are simpler and more reliable than timers. A typical setup would be either a long row of individual tanks with a single auto siphon controlling them all or a single siphon on a large table or row of tables.

Your point about my continuous cycling being too much flood time was a concern of mine from early on. 

Ive thought about that a lot, and I _think_ that, if you look at a waterfarm, or DWC or RDWC, or even a hempy bucket, a large portion of the roots are sitting in water 24/7. That makes me think that constant cycling 24/7 would not be a problem. As I understand it, the main advantage to an ebb/flow setup, over those others, is that fresh air is being drawn in over the roots on every cycle. It seems to me that more cycles would be better. The other advantage of faster cycle times would be a more constant temp inside the root zone. If it sits a long time with no water, the temps will tend to climb due to heat migrating in from the grow room and your media and roots will warm up - only to be shocked by the cold water entering on the next flood cycle.

Or - is my thinking way off on this?

I will for sure keep you guys up-dated on how well or poorly this works


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## Larry3215 (Feb 9, 2018)

Smok3yMcChok3y said:


> Edit: I saw you are looking at nirvana seeds. I've run wonder woman for years and love her. I've run her snow white white rhino and am finishing out some mango skunk now. I didn't like the fluff of the snow white and white rhino strains but am digging mango. So just food for thought


Forgot about this - thanks for the tips! Im still on my forst grow, so I dont know how much I will end up likeing my choices yet. I may give your suggestions a try next time I buy seeds. I was happy with Nirvana service and would use them again.


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## rkymtnman (Feb 9, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> That makes me think that constant cycling 24/7 would not be a problem.


it won't be a problem at all.
but if you are going to run it that frequently, go with dwc or rdwc for way faster growth than E&F. 

i modified my waterfarms so that they are auto-feed and i can easily go out of town for a week or more without issues.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 9, 2018)

Bell syphons and air lifts are sweet


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## Larry3215 (Feb 9, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> but if you are going to run it that frequently, go with dwc or rdwc for way faster growth than E&F.
> i modified my waterfarms so that they are auto-feed and i can easily go out of town for a week or more without issues.


Interesting. Your the first person Ive heard say that R/DWC is faster then E/F?

Id love it if I can get my setup that stable for that long!


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## Cold$moke (Feb 9, 2018)

Im going to be doing a side by side 
Of rdwc and a custom flood and drain /nft table

After this run is done


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## rkymtnman (Feb 9, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Your the first person Ive heard say that R/DWC is faster then E/F?


if you did a 5 gal dwc (as a basic dwc grow), your rootball will be pretty much the size of the bucket. it would never be that big in and E&F for a similar sized plant. . big roots=big fruits


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## Cold$moke (Feb 9, 2018)

I would say plant health and environment will matter most

Thats why im going to run a side by side in my environment. 

Cause if the flood and drain is just as productive 
Ill switch.


I have seen some pretty nice fllod and drain roots they are just spread out differently


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## Budley Doright (Feb 9, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> it won't be a problem at all.
> but if you are going to run it that frequently, go with dwc or rdwc for way faster growth than E&F.
> 
> i modified my waterfarms so that they are auto-feed and i can easily go out of town for a week or more without issues.


Are you sure about that re faster growth? I'm thinking of switching up my setup but still not sure which way to go. I'm switching more for plant movement than speed, getting pretty good growth now with my ebb and flow, but hey I'll also take faster lol. I can get through about 24/36 hours with a failure of a pump now, not sure about DWC being that forgiving before it turns to brown root soup, just one consideration among many


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## Cold$moke (Feb 9, 2018)

The way i built my rdwc the circ pump cycles it enough to where i dont need stones but i have air as a backup.


Bu t if flood and drain/nft that im going go build is just as productive on just 1 pump id be happy.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 9, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> if you did a 5 gal dwc (as a basic dwc grow), your rootball will be pretty much the size of the bucket. it would never be that big in and E&F for a similar sized plant. . big roots=big fruits


Thats a good point about the size of the root ball. I was originally thinking that by using 5 gal totes, I would have the same volume for roots as a 5 gal DWC bucket - but - I didnt take into account that the DWC only has a relatively small part of that 5 gal volume taken up with medium. My totes on the other hand will be full to the brim with hydroton.

Thanks for pointing that out. Im going to go with larger totes or use net pots in these totes the same way DWC works. Im assuming that hydroton takes up roughly 50% of the volume of the container. If I dont do smaller net pots in my existing totes, I could fit a single 15 gal tote in my tent and only run two plants of a single strain or two 10 gal totes so I can run two different strains.

I'll need to think about those options for a bit.

Thanks!


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## Larry3215 (Feb 9, 2018)

I am obviously no expert, but in all the reading I have done, it seems to me that the various systems are ranked more or less in this order - with of course, lots of over lap depending on details and variations.

Hempy bucket
waterfarm
DWC
RDWC
Ebb/Flow
NFT
Aero/mist/fog

So, Im still not sure how DWC would be faster or better than Ebb/Flow - or is it just due to the size of the root ball for similar sized containers?


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## Budley Doright (Feb 10, 2018)

Not sure of ranking other than true hp aero supposedly being the fastest, ive done every thing except the high pressure aero and each had good and bad qualities. My setup now is kind of a hybrid of a few combined but I'm still not satisfied lol.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> Not sure of ranking other than true hp aero supposedly being the fastest, ive done every thing except the high pressure aero and each had good and bad qualities. My setup now is kind of a hybrid of a few combined but I'm still not satisfied lol.


Bout where i am

I have had succes with dwc , low pressure aero,nft, now rdwc . Along with a few years in coco doing drain to waste

I aslso thought about hp aero but the thought of clogged sprayers was the nail in the coffin.

I want my next system to be a fast but sure and simple with less operating costs


I like my rdwc set up now but will still do a side by side to see what preforms better in my conditions


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> I like my rdwc set up now *but will still do a side by side to see what preforms better in my conditions*


I think that is the only way to know for sure what works best for you. Someone mentioned above about all the other factors that go into success - lighting, water quality, nutes, temps, maintenance, etc etc etc. No two people will get the same results from the same equipment. The green thumb factor (or lack of) will always add a large degree of variation to the outcome - not to mention stoner moments when running a grow


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## Budley Doright (Feb 10, 2018)

I had terrible luck with DWC but I contribute that to lack of knowledge (first hydro try) and res temps. My setup now can basically be a RDWC, or FD. Depending on pump cycles. Pretty simple with a bottom tote pumping up to a smaller tray like tote with net pots. The root mass by the end is quite large, taking over the upper tray. As for roots, they are my nemesis, I've finally solved the clogging issues by using silk screen on all my pipe inlets and they work great by blocking roots from entering, just need to clean once or twice a run.


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## rkymtnman (Feb 10, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> Are you sure about that re faster growth? I'm thinking of switching up my setup but still not sure which way to go. I'm switching more for plant movement than speed, getting pretty good growth now with my ebb and flow, but hey I'll also take faster lol. I can get through about 24/36 hours with a failure of a pump now, not sure about DWC being that forgiving before it turns to brown root soup, just one consideration among many


i'd bet a 100 that if you veg 2 clones side by side for say 3 or 4 weeks, one in e&f, one in dwc, the dwc plants is bigger overall, bigger roots, and more weight at harvest.


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## rkymtnman (Feb 10, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Hempy bucket
> waterfarm
> DWC
> RDWC
> ...


i'd say : high pressure aero 1st
rdwc
waterfarm
dwc
nft
ebb/flow
hempy


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## Budley Doright (Feb 10, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> i'd bet a 100 that if you veg 2 clones side by side for say 3 or 4 weeks, one in e&f, one in dwc, the dwc plants is bigger overall, bigger roots, and more weight at harvest.


You may be right lol.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

Stuff in nft / low pressure aero pretty fast and i loved it 

But its hard to grow big bushes and not run into maintenance problems .
Great for short veg sog though.


Id say there are too many variables unless a lab tests them.
Which nasa said hp was the most efficient. 

But for everyones room is another story as no one could "really " reprodyce exact condutons room to room. It might be close

But if you want to shave hairs. They would all have minute differences


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## Budley Doright (Feb 10, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> i'd bet a 100 that if you veg 2 clones side by side for say 3 or 4 weeks, one in e&f, one in dwc, the dwc plants is bigger overall, bigger roots, and more weight at harvest.


I assume your running DWC? Are you chilling the water?


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## rkymtnman (Feb 10, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Great for short veg sog though.


totally agree. awesome for that.


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## rkymtnman (Feb 10, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> I assume your running DWC? Are you chilling the water?


now i'm doing auto feed, drain to waste GH waterfarms. which is technically rdwc since it circulates. 

no chiller. southern ag garden friendly fungicide (hydroguard alternative)


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

I have found that all systems will have a pro and a con


With tube style aero and nft. You run into root mass messing with flow and clogged sprayers
And its a bitch to clean 

Dwc is great to get your feet wet
But you need a convenient way to fill when the plant gets large and ph will go wild with smaller water volumes.

Rdwc is great because it constantly circulates 
Provides high amounts of o2. 
The only problems i can think of is root issues which are easily taken care of with a chiller or bennies.

The problems i have with rdwc is that its kinda ridiculous to run so many pumps to grow 4 plants lmao
Plus i hate uniseals as much as i love them!

Drain to waste with coco was great.
But i hate the mess fungas gnats 
The mess lol. The fungus gnats 

But other then that i loved coco

So my next setup is going to be a meniscus membrane flood and drain/nft.

This will eliminate airstones and massive pump running 24/7 
It will be way easier to clean!

Waterborne root pathogens should be reduced since they will be in a dark moist air chamber and not submerged. 

I will aslo set up a fresh air delivery for the root system so i can dry them a little to simulate a drought lol get them oils goin

Thats all the real world experience with i have with hydro in 15 years


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

Currently with my pump and water volume in my rdwc i get a full cirulation in less then 2min


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## Budley Doright (Feb 10, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> now i'm doing auto feed, drain to waste GH waterfarms. which is technically rdwc since it circulates.
> 
> no chiller. southern ag garden friendly fungicide (hydroguard alternative)


Right I remember you suggesting it but I can't get it here .


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## Budley Doright (Feb 10, 2018)

I was hoping to get away with one water pump for my RDWC setup and use water fall to add oxygen. Keeping my water chilled has been a great thing as well for DO.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

You can use one pump with water falls its what im doing

Mine just circulates fast but the water movment isnt violent on the roots if that makes sense 

Let me know if you wana see how my set up is


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## Budley Doright (Feb 10, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> You can use one pump with water falls its what im doing
> 
> Mine just circulates fast but the water movment isnt violent on the roots if that makes sense
> 
> Let me know if you wana see how my set up is


I will let you know what I decide ...... so many choices lol. I may just stick with what I'm doing as I'm running short of time .


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

No probs its why im constantly trying new set ups

Cuase im constantly finding the downfalls of each.

I have.most all the parts gatherd for my new system. 
Im just trying to work a design for the lid as it needs to support weight but i want to easily be able to check roots.


Ill know here after this rdwc run is done im flipping this week sometime


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Let me know if you wana see how my set up is


Id love to see the details. Ive never heard of a a meniscus membrane flood and drain/nft. 

More new ideas to play with!!


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

That ones not done yet lol

If you want to see a version of it look up 
On you tube. Grow pot cheap flood and drain the easy way.

Ill be making something similar but with my own design tweaks


Basically you could use your set up as planed but without the bell syphon as cool as it is.

And you wouldnt use media

I guess meniscus membrane was invented in Australia to be able to grow in hot weather while using less water  just from what i read


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

Ive been googleing that meniscus membrane system and have found some info but no real details. I found a very fuzzy out of focus image, but its also missing details. 

This looks like a very interesting option though. Looking forward to seeing what your plans are.

https://www.maximumyield.com/membrane-meniscus-method/2/1498

http://www.ipaustralia.com.au/applicant/parker-andrew-martin/patents/AU2011100391/

It looks like his book is no longer available anywhere, but Im still looking.


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## Budley Doright (Feb 10, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> That ones not done yet lol
> 
> If you want to see a version of it look up
> On you tube. Grow pot cheap flood and drain the easy way.
> ...


Looks interesting, what are you using for mat material? I was using spun nylon mats when I first started to colonize the roots but got away from it


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> Looks interesting, what are you using for mat material? I was using spun nylon mats when I first started to colonize the roots but got away from it


I have some polyester batting about 1/4 or less thick


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

The membrane basically just helps channel the nutrients evenly but the roots will eventually devour it and it will have to be thrown away

I dunno i figure if the membrane doesnt work out i can just pot pots in it and make a flood and drain or drain to waste with the table


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

I think I found the two videos you were talking about.












Looks to me like its not quite the same as the system originally designed by Andrew Parker. This setup has the mat for the nutes to flow through, but he isnt using a fabric membrane above it. So, this is more of an NFT with an added mat. 

In the original meniscus membrane, the membrane is supposed to keep the roots OUT of the mat, so the water flow is never slowed or blocked. The roots are also in even less water. The only water getting to the roots is what is wicked up through the fabric/meniscus membrane.

One thing about that video is that Im not all that impressed with the volume of the roots he is getting. I think he would get more is he didnt have the plastic sides on the rockwool cubes, but Im not sure on that.

I cant find any pictures of the original meniscus membrane setups though or what size roots they had. From the descriptions, it sounded like they were getting huge root balls above the fabric membrane?

Need to do more searching I guess.

How were you going to modify the setup in the video?


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

Well to be honest i thought the fabric on top was a detriment.
Causing major loss of humidity from the top if i understood it right we probably read the same links since there is so few on the subject.

As to having some kinds of root suspension
I feel it is uneeded
I was quite impressed with the mat of roots the guy had in his system.

Did you watch the video where he shows the roots after harvest?


And i am going to use panda or a hard lid.
To keep it like a high moisture aero chamber without the spray, 

a thought crossed my mind of adding a nebulizer to fog the roots but im not set on this yet .
Cause of problems with running nutes in the ultrasonic foggers


Im still in my design stages but so far im going to be using the batting like in the vid.

But i still dont have all the details worked out as i have 8 to 10 weeks till i get some room 


I want this systems to be reliable and simple with reduced root pathogen risks (i have theories )

And easy to clean and maintain and leak free (sometimes uniseals weep for a few days til salts build up and block it off if using a round container )

Also im going to plumbbit so it can drain to waste or recirculating that way i can make flushes easy without emptying the res 

And this setup should be much quieter than my rdwc even though thats not my main concern as i love to hear the falls


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> I think I found the two videos you were talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree he probably could have had some more lateral roots if he pulled the covers off as well

But i was impressed with his end root mat 
Just because i think it has all the o2 it can get

Thats the only reason i can think of for suspending the roots system.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

Here is the original patent drawing.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

Awsome i now get it better i didnt see that one


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

I think it will still work very similar he just down sized the thickness of the capillary mat

At least to me

Edit to add although after considering it mabey it keeps the upper layet a little drier?

Mabey experiment with diffent thicknesses of capilary mat basically find the max wicking hieght 
Which i figure is close to 4 inches tops


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

Is that as clear as it gets m id like to read what it says better 

Can you post a link?


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

This is the only one I can find, and yeah, its really hard to read.

http://www.ipaustralia.com.au/applicant/parker-andrew-martin/patents/AU2011100391/


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

The way I read it, the idea is for the roots to stay out of the mat where the water/nutes flow. Thats what the fabric membrane does. That fabric wicks water up to the roots.

I think the roots are supposed to fill up all the space where he has it labeled as "root zone". Basically fill up all the space between the rock wool cubes. Now that would be some serious root mass.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

Thanks damn ye id like to read the rest of number 3 and under vessel 1


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> The way I read it, the idea is for the roots to stay out of the mat where the water/nutes flow. Thats what the fabric membrane does. That fabric wicks water up to the roots.
> 
> I think the roots are supposed to fill up all the space where he has it labeled as "root zone". Basically fill up all the space between the rock wool cubes. Now that would be some serious root mass.


I think it would be hard not to grow into the mat 

The reason i say that is it says the mat is optional

Then it would be.in direct contact with the capillary mat .

I think the mat is probably disposable as well but if not id like to know what they used exactly. 

But since ill be running a pump rather then gravity i think a thinnet.mat will work better with higher flow of nutrients .? Dunno lol


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

I think #3 says "Thickness exaggerated for clarity".

Im not sure what the "disposable material" is supposed to do. Its not mentioned any where I have seen other than in that pic. The article that does the best job of describing the system is here:

https://www.maximumyield.com/membrane-meniscus-method/2/1498

So it looks to me like the guy in the YouTube video is only using part of the system (no membrane) and getting much smaller root mas than what is claimed if you use the membrane to separate the water flow area from the roots.

I sure would like to find some examples of the original idea with some real world pics.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> I think it would be hard not to grow into the mat


Thats what the fabric "membrane" is for. Im picturing it like a smart pot fabric. It lets water wick up through from the mat below, but stops the roots from getting down to the mat.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

Actually, either system looks promising to me, but I would be happier if the roots filled up all that empty space.

I think if I did this I would not use rockwool cubes. They dont look like they would provide much stability for the plants when they got large, plus there is no way to tie down branches for LST. Im thinking I would go with smallish pots filled with hydroton or even some rocks mixed in to give them some weight.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

We will have to build some and experiment!


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

Another big difference between the video and the original original meniscus membrane system, is water flow rates. In the original meniscus membrane setup, the water/nute mix is just a very slow trickle. In the video, that guy is pumping at a good clip with a mechanical pump.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Thats what the fabric "membrane" is for. Im picturing it like a smart pot fabric. It lets water wick up through from the mat below, but stops the roots from getting down to the mat.


Still i would think the roots would still pop through and since its moist i would think they would just grow into it but if not that could have some benefits


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

Yes!!


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Another big difference between the video and the original original meniscus membrane system, is water flow rates. In the original meniscus membrane setup, the water/nute mix is just a very slow trickle. In the video, that guy is pumping at a good clip with a mechanical pump.


Yup thats why i say its meniscus/nft

The menicsus allows a "shallower" bed of water then nft alone could because the mat spreads the water ....in my head at least


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

I wonder if that "optional material" above the fabric membrane, is something like the mat in the video - a place for the roots to "root' outside the rockwool cubes?


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> I wonder if that "optional material" above the fabric membrane, is something like the mat in the video - a place for the roots to "root' outside the rockwool cubes?


Thats what i figure its just there to spread the "meniscus membrane " film of water
Then roots just crawl along it .

Perhaps its like you say with the upper layer acting as a grow bag of sorts.

Buf it could be just exaggerated for clarity hard to say without a whole picture and description.

Thats the fun part with new systems lol just when you figure it "all" out. You make a run and have a list of improvements afterwards


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

> Thats the fun part with new systems lol just when you figure it "all" out. You make a run and have a list of improvements afterwards


Exactly!!

I found some more general info but no details yet. I did find some pics of roots though.

https://www.instagram.com/explore/tags/membranemeniscus/

They look pretty good to me.

I also emailed the guy who wrote the articles in Maximum Yield. I'll let you know if he gets back to me - hopefully with some details.

Ok, you have done it to me again! Now Im off on plan 387 for my next grow - membrane meniscus! Lucky for me I still have 5 or 6 weeks till this grow is ready to harvest, so I have time to change my mind at least 73 more times 

For the moment, I think all my basic equipment and plumbing should be exactly the same as before - grow totes, rez, airlift pump. I wont need the auto siphon of course. All I need is a simple drain back to the rez.

The add-ons will be some sort of mat for the nutes to flow through and a membrane of some sort. I just happen to have some fabric batting left over from an RC model build that should work for the bottom mat. From that drawing, it looks like he has that layer quite thick, so I guess I will have to use several layers. That will probably let the water flow easier and more uniformly.

Im thinking I will just use smart pots for the membrane. My 5 gal smart pots are too small to fit nicely inside my 5 gal totes, so I need to find some at least 7 gals I think.

Then set a plastic net pot in the lid of the tote, with hydroton or what ever, so that it hangs down far enough to rest on the smart pot fabric and some more batting. Cover the top of the pot to keep out light and Im all set. That should give me a strong support for the plants and allow me to do LST - I think.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

Yup would be easy to convert your design


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

Im going to miss my auto siphon....


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

Ah ha! After a lot of looking I found the original patent application - with all the details and clear pics!

http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/ols/auspat/quickSearch.do?queryString=2011100391&resultsPerPage=&includeAbstractText=on

Reading it now.....


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## Larry3215 (Feb 10, 2018)

This is going to be simple. The capillary material that the nutes flow through can be perlite or something similar. You can also use perlite for the "disposable material" on top.

The fabric he recommends for the membrane is dacron, which is easy to get at fabric stores. I just happen to have some of that on hand.

Here is a clean pic.


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## ANC (Feb 10, 2018)




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## Cold$moke (Feb 10, 2018)

Ok so if im reading it correctly. 

Basically the guy in the video is using the batting as the disposable layer. And yhe bottom of his table act as the impenetrable layer .

With the only difference of having the film of nutrients a little closer to the root mass.

In which in one of the descriptions he does say something about the capilary matt staying adequately wet so the water makes the film


It might be worth grabbing some material 

But it looks like it might complicate it without much gain?

Dunno well have to build and see 

Thats for the info


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## Larry3215 (Feb 11, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> But it looks like it might complicate it without much gain?


Hard to say.

In that video ANC posted, the root ball looks much larger than it did in the other one I saw. Thats a lot more impressive than I thought.

The thing is, to get that large root mass, you need some surface area. I suspect thats one reason he spread the plants out like that.

The big difference between the guy in the video and the MM (membrane meniscus) technique, is that in the video, the roots stay in water all the time. Basically an NFT with a mat. The membrane technique keeps the roots out of the water, so its like a super thin NFT.

Would one or the other have more or less tendency to get root rot or other issues?


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## ANC (Feb 11, 2018)

The roots will expand in the batting like it is a thin soil layer. It will anker them better than cubes on bare bottoms, and allow a much bigger root than the average ebb and flow cube.
It is basically a long table lined with plastic and a drainage hole on one side. I imagine you could shape the exit and just catch it in your reservoir. All you need is a wide T on the intake side with lots of holes in to spread water as wide as the footprint. It runs to the output with gravity. So no dripper or feedlines to sort out. It is as simple as recirculating hydro gets.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 11, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Basically the guy in the video is using the batting as the disposable layer. And yhe bottom of his table act as the impenetrable layer .
> 
> With the only difference of having the film of nutrients a little closer to the root mass.


Kind of. The guy in the video is just doing NFT with the roots growing in the mat.

The MM technique has the water flowing under the barrier/membrane and water wicks up to the roots. In one case, the roots are in water full time. In the other, they are in the air full time with water being fed to them by capillary action. Andrew Parker claims his technique gets more air to the roots and uses less nutes to get the job done. Plus a smaller air pump and no water pump, so you have energy savings as well.

From the pics I saw of grows using the MM technique, they had great results and huge root balls too - but - Im not sure which would be better for our growing. Both look to work pretty well.

I think Im going to try the MM thing - partly because its interesting and different and I can easily use my air lift pump and I happen to have all the parts already on hand


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## Cold$moke (Feb 11, 2018)

You build with suspension 
Ill go without 

We will meet in the middle lol


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## Larry3215 (Feb 11, 2018)

ANC said:


> The roots will expand in the batting like it is a thin soil layer. It will anker them better than cubes on bare bottoms, and allow a much bigger root than the average ebb and flow cube.
> It is basically a long table lined with plastic and a drainage hole on one side. I imagine you could shape the exit and just catch it in your reservoir. All you need is a wide T on the intake side with lots of holes in to spread water as wide as the footprint. It runs to the output with gravity. So no dripper or feedlines to sort out. It is as simple as recirculating hydro gets.


Thanks for jumping in! Whats your take on the MM technique?


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## Larry3215 (Feb 11, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> You build with suspension
> Ill go without
> 
> We will meet in the middle lol



Perfect!


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## Cold$moke (Feb 11, 2018)

I still dont know if the added layer would merit too much though

Because with a ball valve you can make the film of water as thin as the batting .. Correct? Thus turning it into a "thin layer nft"

I beleive the idea of the whole thing is that the batting allows for the waters suface tension to maintain thin film

But this is all theroy to me at this point


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## Cold$moke (Feb 11, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Im going to miss my auto siphon....


You know after i found out about them i wanted to make a system with one they are cool as hell

And your first system would have been sweet


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## Budley Doright (Feb 11, 2018)

When you guys start these you should do a co-thread . The reason I did the matt thing was to use a better media for beanies and to try and keep roots out of what little water was left after a flood. I didn't notice a huge difference with or without. One possible good thing in a drain to waste would be less water. I used spreader mat for NFT.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 11, 2018)

Good points guys.

I like the idea of a co-thread!


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## Larry3215 (Feb 11, 2018)

Ive had the roll of what I think is Dacron fabric sitting in a back corner of my hobby room for at least a decade, and I cant really remember where I got it or if its Dacron for sure. I decided Id better test my 'Dacron' cloth to be sure it really did have decent capillary action and could wick water.

I filled a mason jar to the brim with tap water and placed a small piece of the Dacron on top, and screwed on the lid, trying not to trap any air. I put a short piece of cardboard tube resting on the fabric and it quickly started to wick up water. A short time later I noticed water was also wicking out from under the cap and down the sides of the jar making a nice puddle on my work bench. So its wicking sideways along the grain of the fabric and through it.

I think it will work just fine as a membrane.

Im so tempted to pop one of my spare seeds and get started....


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## Cold$moke (Feb 11, 2018)

Very nice


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## Cold$moke (Feb 11, 2018)

Im flipping sometime in a week or so 

So i got a bit to plan and gather 

Are you still going to use an airlift?


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## Cold$moke (Feb 11, 2018)

I have plants that i poped in four inch blocks that will go in 

They are going to be vegging for a while haha 
I poped the seeds around Christmas so been going for a bit now  but they are staying small since im a noob with rockwool which im fine with for now


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## Larry3215 (Feb 11, 2018)

Yeah, Im definitely going to keep the airlift pump. I dont see any need to buy a water pump and I dont really want to setup a gravity feed system. The first airlift I built can do up to 30-40 gals/hr which is way more than the MM technique needs, so I will probably have to slow it down. 

Im also going to go ahead an aerate the rez, even though Andrew Parker says its unnecessary. I figure it cant hurt to have more aeration and my aquarium air pump has excess capacity.

Andrew Parker also mentions the need to provide air into the MM root chamber, but the only suggestion he has is having holes in the top cover. I dont want to do it that way because that means sucking in hot air from the grow tent. Im worried about that heat transferring to the rez water. Im going to hook my airpump's inlet side to the root chamber and make a path for air from under the grow tent to get inside. That will provide a stead flow of fresh, relatively cool, room temp air to the root chamber.

I didnt see any way to get fresh air into the roots in those videos with the mat/NFT technique in those videos either. I guess he is relying on the water being aerated enough? It seems like it would be a good idea to have fresh air to the roots too.

By the way, The technique Im going to do came with a cool name - membrane meniscus, or MM for short 

We need a name for the technique your going to try. Since you're going to do it, you get to name it  Got any ideas?


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## Larry3215 (Feb 11, 2018)

More on the Dacron for the membrane. I think what I have is actually something call peel ply thats used in fiberglass manufacturing as a release film. Ive done several searches for Dacron fabric, but all of it is the wrong type. Im mostly finding batting and very loosely woven fabrics - both of which are NOT what you want for the membrane. There is also sailcloth, but thats expensive and pretty heavy duty. Not sure how well it would work.

Dacron is just a name brand for polyester fabric, so I started looking for those.

Turns out that "fabric" shower curtains are made from the right stuff and seem to have a nice tight weave and smooth surface. Im sure Joan Fabrics or other fabric stores also carry similar fabrics you can buy by the yard for cheap. Heck, you may even have an old shirt in your closet that would work  I think pretty much any tightly woven, somewhat shiny, slick, synthetic fabric would work fine - nylon, rayon, polyester, etc.


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## ANC (Feb 11, 2018)

Try upholstery foam, I use thin upholstery foam to line my nursery bags


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## Larry3215 (Feb 11, 2018)

ANC said:


> Try upholstery foam, I use thin upholstery foam to line my nursery bags


If it keeps root out, and lets water through, that would work just as well I think.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 11, 2018)

Oh - I got an email back from the guy who wrote that article in Maximum Yield mag. He is tracking down a copy of the book Andrew Parker wrote. I will share that when I get it.

I also asked him if he knew of any down sides or quirks, problems or issues with the MM technique. He says its just the normal hydro issues - light leaks to the rooting area, nute mixing, PH etc. He is still sold on it as being the 'next big thing' in hydro growing.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 11, 2018)

Yup ill call mine meniscus membrane nft lol

I too will probably oxygenate the res just cause i have an alita running.my rdwc anyways.

And its just so ingrained to bubble the res although i might try it without .


I too have been working on a design to supply the root zone with fresh air i already have some parts ordered and waiting. Need a few more bits

Still working on the design for the table

Ie i dont know if i want a flat or ridged bottom

Both have merits and minuses in my head.

My biggest design issue is with the lid id rather make a reusable sturdy lid.

I will not rely on panda plastic for waterproofing

I might buy a commercially made tray but ill probably just build one out of wood

Plus im thinking of drainage designs and how to deliver a nice even sheet of water along the lenght of the cloth.

I think of it as a big version of nft nothing more

The main reason im so interested is i want to be able to simulate droughts towards the end of cycle to increase oils. And i see it being safer for water related root problems

Since water teansfers heat so well thats why eveyones rdwc runs warm.

But if the roots are always in a cool moist dark air chamber. I think they will be quite happy


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## Cold$moke (Feb 11, 2018)

I dont know about being "the next big thing"

Hp aero is still the most efficient as far as water and nutrients but its just too finicky for me .

As i hated sprayers from my low pressure aero days enough lol

Yes i thought about adding.misters at one point too lol

Been thinking about this for the last 2 or 3 months 

I just want it to be a ultra easy reliable and productive .

If it comes even close to rdwc as far as growth speed i will be sold. .. just for the simplicity


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## Larry3215 (Feb 12, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Yup ill call mine meniscus membrane nft lol


Wait! It just occured to me - there is no membrane or meniscus in that setup in the video, so you cant call it that! Sorry, couldnt resist  

I think either one will do well. For me, I suspect any type of hydro will be better than growing in soil - unless of course, I screw it up royalyl! 

How big is your setup going to be? My grow tent is just 7 sq ft, so Im limited.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 12, 2018)

I thought they said the meniscus membrane is what the lens of waters surface tension is called?
Basically a drop of water has its own meniscus membrane? Mabey im ass backward

Edit to add
What is the meniscus of water?

A concave meniscus, which is what you normally will see, occurs when the molecules of the liquid are attracted to those of the container. This occurs withwater and a glass tube. A convex meniscus occurs when the molecules have a stronger attraction to each other than to the container, as with mercury and glass.Dec 2, 2016

A meniscus refers to the thickness or depth of a membrane of uncontained water and can be observed here as it moves from a horizontal to a vertical plane.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 12, 2018)

Ha, ill always know i told ya bout it though 

I have about 4x8 to work with mine
With the whole room being about 8x8

Mine will still be called. meniscus membrane nft
Which is the most practical name for it.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 12, 2018)

I figure my table will be around 2.5 to 3 ft wide by about 6 feet long or so

Also in my head its really the same or close enough 

In your system the dracon fabic keeps roots from sitting to deep in the nutrient film

In mine the bottom of the container will act much the same with just a thin film running through my capillary layer which after fills with roots will be mostly in the air with just the lowest ones actually wet 

At least in theory


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## Larry3215 (Feb 12, 2018)

Ah, your setup is much larger than mine.

Ok, I can see where you are coming from on the meniscus part, but not really with the membrane part. I guess its largely a matter of degree - and me being nit-picky/anal/pedantic  I guess the biggest thing is the MM technique drastically reduces the amount of water actually touching the roots and therefor, the amount of water flow needed. As a side benefit, it also increases natural aeration. In your case, the membrane is actually just a way to hold water, where as in the MM technique the membrane keeps the roots way from the water and at the same time transports water to the roots via the meniscus/capillary effect rather than direct contact. There is a lot of overlap there for sure.

I just scored a copy of Andrews book! Havent finished reading through it yet, but so far its very interesting. He breaks down all the basic hydro types from an engineers viewpoint with details on why each is good and bad and how they work.

dang - its too big to up-load directly. I'll have to copy it to my Google drive acct.....


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## Larry3215 (Feb 12, 2018)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-7X5NIS7vkRJ-UWJXecMa41NsXNFXtli/view?ths=true


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## Cold$moke (Feb 12, 2018)

Not arguing but 

I think the results will largley be the same 

And the meniscus IS the membrane lol

Its the membrane like lens of water surface tension

if im understanding it correctly 

I just think the material will add to complications

Like trying to adequately suspend some big plants on just the material? Somthing is going to warp from the weight.

Unless you have some type of support of the material. 

Unless it just lays right on the mat 
In which it would sag into the water,no?

Unless you can find a capilary material that can support wieght lol

Which in my set up all you gota do is rip the roots out, give it a scrub and drop new batting in and let it rip .

But if your systems does even better with the material i will try it as im a man of logic .....most of the time lol 

But i will definitely be down to watch your set up develop.

Id go start building mine but then i still have to wait several weeks before i can use it .

So im going to build and led light for the first few weeks then ill build the system before my new run is done .


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## Cold$moke (Feb 12, 2018)

Also in "my" version the batt isnt necessarily "holding" water as much as it is makeing sure it

Can form film of water .. as in the water would just flow to whichever point that gravity takes it

In other words unless your table is perfectly level and stable the water will pool where gravity allows it.


The matting through surface tension and capilary action keep the water in a continuous
"Meniscus membrane ".

In your version your material would have to be the same if what you say is true .

Which i doubt it will stay flat 

Lol its all in the nomenclature


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## Cold$moke (Feb 12, 2018)

I havent downloaded the file yet 

let me know if there is any details that make the dracon material more necessary 


And even though you have a smaller area results are results in my book it will be easy to see how well it works even in a smaller scale system


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## Larry3215 (Feb 12, 2018)

I can see your point and I think its a perfectly valid way to look at it. I think the biggest detail is he (Andrew) is using the words a little differently. He is an engineer, so precise definitions of terms are critical. The 'membrane', is the dacron fabric and it is used to create the meniscus effect in the roots. So, from his point of view, there is no 'membrane meniscus', or maybe it would be better to say the water meniscus that forms isnt the membrane he is talking about. They are two separate things. One is a tool and one is the effect. He explains the details in the book.

BUT - I agree its mostly a matter of degree. We will have to see how it works in practice for our type of growing.

I emailed the pres of that Australian hydro club where Andrew came up with the original idea. He is the one who sent me the book. They seem to be the main ones using this technique. Ive asked him the same question I asked the other guy - how well does this really work and what are the down sides - if any.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 12, 2018)

Oh - about your other points above.

The capillary material he is recommending is perlite, hydroton, etc, so it could support weight easily I think. Also, he keeps the water level below the Dacron membrane. No water ever directly contacts the dacron membrane. Even if it did, the membrane, and the roots above it, will never be as "wet" as roots growing in batting would be when directly in contact with the water.

Then, he also has the option to use more perlite etc on top of the membrane - the disposable layer. So far, it looks like that is to help the roots build a thicker layer and help wick more water up higher into that thicker root layer. All the time with the roots never actually in any water that is more than the very thin 'meniscus' layer formed by the capillary action. Every root is surrounded by air - not water.

In the NFT setups, at least a portion of the roots are covered by a much thicker layer of water at all times. Only the roots above that water layer are getting the true meniscus effect - at least according to Andrew.

I think you are right though - its mostly a matter of degree and nomenclature.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 12, 2018)

I agree

The membrane in mine is the batting thus forming the meniscus. Im pretty sure the batting would fall under the definition of membrane 

Just cause the roots permiate it. Does it not make it a membrane.

Sorry im not an engineer nor very educated


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## Larry3215 (Feb 12, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> I just think the material will add to complications


I think you're right about that for sure. Adding the decron membrane is an extra step and it will need to be done with at least some care and attention to detail. The big question is - is it going to be worth it


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## Cold$moke (Feb 12, 2018)

[QUOTE="Larry3215, post: 14070676, member: 984113" All the time with the roots never actually in any water that is more than the very thin 'meniscus' layer formed by the capillary action. Every root is surrounded by air - not water..[/QUOTE]

Thats where i have to disagree though

I believe that would be impossible unless in high pressure aero ponics.


If i recall i thought the main reason for this system is water conservation and to be able to grow hydroponics whithout electricity
Like in the Australian bush?

The roots not touching water seems a little far fetched

Edit i re read it and get what you said better

Only a few roots touch a thin layer


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## Cold$moke (Feb 12, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> I think you're right about that for sure. Adding the decron membrane is an extra step and it will need to be done with at least some care and attention to detail. The big question is - is it going to be worth it


Totally agree


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## Cold$moke (Feb 12, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Oh - about your other points above.
> 
> The capillary material he is recommending is perlite, hydroton, etc, so it could support weight easily I think. Also, he keeps the water level below the Dacron membrane. No water ever directly contacts the dacron membrane. Even if it did, the membrane, and the roots above it, will never be as "wet" as roots growing in batting would be when directly in contact with the water.
> 
> ...


That does make more sense with the material laid on a bed of perlite a lot better 

Sorry im a visual learner lol


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## Cold$moke (Feb 12, 2018)

This will be an excellent comparison as to the degree of differences the little things will make.

Should be awsome

Now if i can only fast forward 8 to 10 weeks lol


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## Larry3215 (Feb 12, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> This will be an excellent comparison as to the degree of differences the little things will make.
> 
> Should be awsome
> 
> Now if i can only fast forward 8 to 10 weeks lol


LOL! Im closer than you are - maybe 5 or 6 weeks to go, but I cant hardly wait. Ive even thought about up-rooting some weeds from my yard to test it out. I briefly considered sneaking one of my wifes house plants and transplanting it, but I dont think she would go for that


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## Cold$moke (Feb 12, 2018)

Indeed ive been vegging these bitches for so long i just want em outa there lol

Long story but this run is made up of monster cropped plants i saved from dying in the green house when winter hit lmao

Little girl busted her 5 inch cup sometime within the last week or so.

I hope she caan make it for the rest of the show lmao.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 12, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> LOL! Im closer than you are - maybe 5 or 6 weeks to go, but I cant hardly wait. Ive even thought about up-rooting some weeds from my yard to test it out. I briefly considered sneaking one of my wifes house plants and transplanting it, but I dont think she would go for that


I know i cant wait to try the set up out im really excited to see how it does.

I might even try the material route .

I just was hoping to make a media free system
And i would hate to have to clean a few inches worth of perlite every few month's

I even though about just plopping clones in it without rockwool to see how they do 

Would be great not to have to buy any consumables every grow like rockwool and perlite.

I wana figure out a way to do it with no batting but the only way i can figure is straight nft which the water level would have to be much higher thus negating some of the air benefits untill the root mass grows so big most of it is in the air?


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## Larry3215 (Feb 12, 2018)

Wow, that girl looks to have some serious roots on her 

Im having second thoughts on the MM technique. I just finished a quick read through of the book. It was written in 2014 and the patent drawings were done in 2011, so there are a number of changes or 'improvements' in the book over how he has it in the original drawings.

Unfortunately, most of those changes make things more difficult or at least more finicky to set up. Plus, the materials are more difficult to find and/or more expensive. He is no longer using easy to find and cheap stuff for the capillary mat, barrier membrane and associated parts.

If I cant come up with a way to make this cheaper and easier, then Im going back to the mat idea. I think if you lower the water flow, you will get many of the benefits he claims for his technique - and it sure would be easier to set up.

Or - I may just go back to the patent drawings and try it that way. That is easy and cheap to do - at least for me.

Still pondering........


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## Cold$moke (Feb 12, 2018)

Indeed it would have to come with substantial benefits to justify a big bag of perlite and the mess that comes with it 

Though i like its concept


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## HotWaterKarl (Feb 13, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Thanks for the help and advice!
> 
> I looked at Waterfarms, DWC buckets, hempy buckets, NFT, etc etc. I really liked the idea behind ebb/flow, but decided it was going to be a bit too complex and $$, so I had decided to do a DWC bucket instead. Waterfarms and hempy buckets and other simpler techniques just didnt run my motor.
> 
> ...



In my experience res temps don't matter much in Ebb and Flow. Of course if you are constantly cycling water into the root zone, that may be different. In my standard Ebb and Flow using Grodan cubes or slabs, cycling a few times a day (when lights are on), my res temps have been well up into the 80's without using any beneficial bacteria or chlorine in the reservoir. I do not find using a subpump to add heat. In fact, I have an extra 1000L/hr one in my tub that does nothing but recirculate/aerate the solution and I don't have added heat problems.

Just a tip about air lift pumps though, you are going to be drawing in Pythium and other bacteria into your reservoir from the air in the room, but anyways I've never had root rot problems using Grodan, not sure what medium you will use.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 13, 2018)

Thanks for the feedback!

I am constantly surprised at the wide range of recommendations from different growers. Your temps are pretty far up on the hi side of what I have seen suggested by most, especially with no use of sterilizers of beneficial bacteria, but you're probably not alone 

As far as sucking in bad bacteria with the air lift pump, would that not be true of anyone using air stones as well? The air lift pump uses no more air than a typical air stone.


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## HotWaterKarl (Feb 13, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Thanks for the feedback!
> 
> I am constantly surprised at the wide range of recommendations from different growers. Your temps are pretty far up on the hi side of what I have seen suggested by most, especially with no use of sterilizers of beneficial bacteria, but you're probably not alone
> 
> As far as sucking in bad bacteria with the air lift pump, would that not be true of anyone using air stones as well? The air lift pump uses no more air than a typical air stone.


Yes it is true of airstones and why I use a pump now that sucks from the bottom of the res and shoots it back into the res with about a 2 inch gap between the output and the top of the res water (think high powered waterfall).

I also don't run these temps all the time but I had one grow this summer where the temps were up to 85 in the tub and no issues at all. You can see the results in my sig, it is the first grow #1 (~4lbs off 8x4 table 3 months total grow time)


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## Cold$moke (Feb 13, 2018)

Did you recirculate your nutrients or 
Dtw


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## Cold$moke (Feb 13, 2018)

Im hitting 75 but im running hydrogaurd in my set ups


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## HotWaterKarl (Feb 13, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Im hitting 75 but im running hydrogaurd in my set ups


If you are talking to me, I did recirc the solution with a 1000L/hr pump in my 80 gallon res pumping waterfall style in the tub constantly. The table only got flooded a couple times a day. With ebb and flow the aeration of a couple daily flood/drain on the table, and the pump recirculating the tub the rest of the time seems to be all I needed. Res temps are nowhere near the issue in Ebb&Flow as it is in DWC or RDWC especially if you are using Grodan/Rockwool imo, and I have done both. That said, bennies won't hurt you either.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 13, 2018)

I had a wild thought last night. I think I can squeeze in 3ea of these 5 gal totes in my tent. That means I could run my original Ebb/Flow in one tote, and the Meniscus/Mat/NFT in the second tote, and the Meniscus Membrane in the third tote.

All would have seeds from the same strain, under the same lighting, same rez and same nutes, same temps, etc etc.

Im pretty sure I can run all three with my airlift pump. At worst, I would need to add a second airlift, but that would only cost me an additional $2 or so in fittings. Actually, I think I have enough fittings laying around to do another one or two.

These seeds are not sexed, so I would need to start at least 6 to be sure I ended up with three females, but Im sure I can fit two in each tub, and then cull the males and smaller female plants.

That would really only cost me the price of one extra tote and a few fittings to rout water around.

That would/should give a really good comparison as to which method works best under the same exact conditions. There would still be the variable you get from one seed to another, but I have no clones, so this would have to do.

And - the best part of this is I get to use my auto siphon again!!


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## Cold$moke (Feb 13, 2018)

Sweet
look forward to it .


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## Larry3215 (Feb 14, 2018)

I am bored while I wait for this grow to finish, so I decided to go back to testing various auto siphons. There are several variations on YouTube. Most are the Bell type, but there are also T siphons and simple loop siphons. In my earlier tests, a simple loop siphon worked just as well as the bell or the T and it is easier to make and only requires 2ea 90 deg elbows and some pipe.

There was one variation on the loop siphon that used 45 deg elbows - a bunch of them - to create the loop. The main advantage to that version was it has the smallest volume of trapped air at the top when the container fills up. I found that having less air trapped in the siphon made for faster tripping and more reliable tripping at slower fill rates. All that trapped air has to be sucked out before the siphon will trip and flow fully. If it doesnt trip, then the water ends up flowing out just as fast as it flows in, and the container stays full and never drains. Once the air is all gone, the siphon will go full speed and drain the container.

Here is a crude drawing of the various types of auto siphons. Ive tried several Bells and the T and the loop with the 2ea 90 ells. I havent tried one on the far left with the 45 couplings yet. I think the ones with the 45 at the top will be the most reliable and easiest to trip because they will have the least amount of trapped air. My simplified version is on the far right - it uses one less 90 ell. Im going to try it out later tonight.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 14, 2018)

Very cool


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## Larry3215 (Feb 14, 2018)

The tests took a little longer than they might have because I had my 7 yr old grand daughter helping, but they went very well 

The loop siphon with the 45 deg on top seems to trip a good bit easier than the others, allowing me to slow down the fill rate and still get reliable trips.

I added a 'P' trap under the tote per one of the YouTube videos I saw, but Im not sure if it really helps or not. I need to do another series of runs with and without the trap. The trap is supposed to 'burp' as the tote fills and trip the siphon that way even with very slow fill rates, but I didnt see any burps.

That may be because I was pretty distracted with all the super enthusiastic help from the 7 yr old. After she traced the water flow from the rez, to the pumping chamber, up through the airlift pump, over to the tote, down through the siphon and back into the rez, she announced that this was just like the cycle of life she learned in class! Pretty sharp kiddo 

Here are some pics.

The first two are the airlift pump parts and assembled.



 
Next is the siphon and 'P' trap assembly. 

This is the siphon inside the tote. Its set about 2" below where I want the water level to max out.


Water is just starting to flow over the top of the siphon at a slow rate. It is NOT tripped yet.

Just a slow trickle back into the rez


The siphon has tripped and the tote is draining. Takes about 3 minutes to drain 5 gals.
 

I can set the minimum water level by cutting the 1/2" CVPC pipe and the small air line tube. The small tube lets air in and assures the siphon stops at that level.




Im going to use something like this plastic jar to cover the siphon to keep stones and roots out of it. The top will be even with the hydroton with a cap on it. I can remove the cap and look inside to check it every so often to be sure its clear.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 15, 2018)

Awsome very creative

I always wanted to figure it out for a pump free setup.

But i always return to gravity. Its just the most problem free as far as overflows


But im also not trying to flood either lol


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## Larry3215 (Feb 15, 2018)

Yup, gravity rarely fails


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## Cold$moke (Feb 15, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Yup, gravity rarely fails


Haha no sir


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## Budley Doright (Feb 16, 2018)

I think the ideals presented here are all pretty cool but I'm thinking as far as pumps go, is there really a difference between air and water for reliability? Also I know when I was running air stones I had water stability issues re ph, not sure if it would have any effect using in this app though. It will be cool to see how this all rolls out. I've decided to stick with what I do for the next run as I'm running out of smoke and can't afford dialling in a new setup, I get pretty fast growth now .


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## Larry3215 (Feb 16, 2018)

You're running Ebb/Flow IIRC? Nice looking babies 

Yeah, the difference in reliability and even cost, is really fairly minimal between using a water pump or not. The only real reason not to use one is heat in the rez. In a smallish rez, a submersible pump could add significant heat. 

Ive been thinking about the differences between the various types of hydro and it all comes down to the ratio between water and air to the roots.

On one end of the scale, you have DWC, water farms, and hempy buckets. They all have a significant % of the roots in water full time.

Next is Ebb/Flow, which in some cases also has a portion of the roots wet 100% of the time, but most seem to drain 100% from what I have read. Ive seen some people who flood a lot and some who only do it 4 times a day, so there is a wide range here.

Next would be the various NFT setups and low pressure aero. Again some of them flow a lot of water and some very little, so how 'wet' the roots are varies a lot.

The highest ratio of air to water looks to me to be the membrane meniscus setup, but I guess the fogger/mist type hi pressure aero systems would be pretty close.

My point being that all of these systems can produce excellent results - if done correctly. I actually dont expect to see a huge difference between the three techniques Im going to try, but it will be fun and interesting to see how it works out.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 16, 2018)

These are flipping today 
I think they need a trimming though
10 brutes for size reference and 1 inch manifold pipe size


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## Larry3215 (Feb 16, 2018)

Nice clean, neat setup! They look really healthy to me.

Im a compulsive trimmer, so I say go for it


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## Budley Doright (Feb 16, 2018)

Very nice.


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## Budley Doright (Feb 16, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> You're running Ebb/Flow IIRC? Nice looking babies
> 
> Yeah, the difference in reliability and even cost, is really fairly minimal between using a water pump or not. The only real reason not to use one is heat in the rez. In a smallish rez, a submersible pump could add significant heat.
> 
> ...


Yes I'm running ebb & flow I guess lol. I typically run the pump in cycles but have ran continuos as well so a hybrid and also ran sprayers by basically changing out manifold. Keeping the water chilled has really made a huge difference, took me a bit to get that part being stubborn and also not being able to access hydroguard as of a year ago pushed me. It's a blast to try different setups and I spend a lot of time building controls. I really only started hydro about 6 years ago, grew outdoors before that for 45 years .


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## Cold$moke (Feb 16, 2018)

Im A little worried im pushing the limits on water temps.

Its why i started running the hydroguard as i refuse to chill water when i live in a cold climate lol.

I have thought about running some floor heat radiators under my shed so i can pump nutes through it and effectively cool my water (beings its cold 9 months of the year lol

This is another reason im looking into a new method cause i refuse to chill water lol


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## Larry3215 (Feb 16, 2018)

I caught myself almost hoping I have temp issues. That would give me an excuse to play with some of those peltier thermoelectric cooler modules.

https://www.amazon.com/Glamorway-TEC1-12706-Thermoelectric-Cooling-Peltier/dp/B00IKDL22O/ref=pd_sim_328_4?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00IKDL22O&pd_rd_r=0XF2JEFZM2JKG86Z5AFJ&pd_rd_w=uSAWJ&pd_rd_wg=oSJQ9&psc=1&refRID=0XF2JEFZM2JKG86Z5AFJ










They can also be had on ebay for just over $2 each, but I think I would go Amazon. I already have thermal paste, a power supply, marine sealant, and heat sink material I can use. 

Im picturing cutting rectangular holes the size of these (2"+-) in the sides of my rez, then gluing a heat sink on the inside of the hole that seals the hole but leaves the heat sink exposed on the outside. Then ataching one or more of these to the exposed portion of the heat sink on the outside with a small fan blowing on them. I will probably have to add another heat sink on the outside as well. Im planning on just using cheap alum U channel I have on hand.

The 'cool' part of using these, is they can also heat the water just by reversing the current flow. With a simple STC 1000 ($15) or similar thermostatic controller, you can keep your rez cooled or heated as needed all year round.


----------



## Cold$moke (Feb 16, 2018)

Neat 
Never heard of em 

but id say the same thing 
In a cold climate im not paying to cool anything ha ha. But if i was somewhere hot i probably would


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## Budley Doright (Feb 17, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Neat
> Never heard of em
> 
> but id say the same thing
> In a cold climate im not paying to cool anything ha ha. But if i was somewhere hot i probably would


Well it's minus fucking 26 here today lol. I was the same as you but if I push my indoor past April and into May then shit happens and I struggled. I also built the chiller to hopefully be able to handle the cooling load of the shed as well if kept going through the summer, will see this year when it becomes legal and people aren't questioning the air conditioner in a garden shed lol. Im just about to head out and drill a hole for some fishing .


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## Cold$moke (Feb 17, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> Well it's minus fucking 26 here today lol. I was the same as you but if I push my indoor past April and into May then shit happens and I struggled. I also built the chiller to hopefully be able to handle the cooling load of the shed as well if kept going through the summer, will see this year when it becomes legal and people aren't questioning the air conditioner in a garden shed lol. Im just about to head out and drill a hole for some fishing .


Ha ha yea you gota do what you gota do lol

Im trying to keep myself from getting a ac and chiller and co2 if i can help it .

Wouldnt mind trying co2. One of these days though


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## Budley Doright (Feb 17, 2018)

I've got everything to do cylinders c/w a stepper valve and controller .... kind of forgot about it actually. But yes if I do keep it going in the summer I'll get it running I guess.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 17, 2018)

Its supposed to be an option to beat the heat 

I just try to simplify and cheapen these days ha ha


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## Budley Doright (Feb 18, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Its supposed to be an option to beat the heat
> 
> I just try to simplify and cheapen these days ha ha


Ya me too, sadly life seems to be getting more complicated lol. And yes higher temps are one thing that it allows for. I was using it in the winter to supplement the lack of ventilation but it was costing more than having to heat the fresh air lol. I really had no controllers though, just full time metering of small amounts, another epic fail lol. Being in the Hvac trade allows for some pretty innovative controls/components at a reasonable price so I guess I should take full advantage. Besides, it's kind of cool lol.


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## Budley Doright (Feb 18, 2018)

I was going to run RDWC and just curious why your moving on CS? Bored lol? I got a dozen square pails and access to any size CPVC. I was also thinking individual flood and drain buckets with shared res but that's getting a tad more complicated lol. Blue mats are also tweaking my interest but I just built the chiller and god why if I just unplug it lol.
Edit: oh ya and I need to build some COBS.


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## Cold$moke (Feb 18, 2018)

Well to be honest, i think there is more of a cool factor then anything 
if not you would see all the major hydro farms using it like the dutch for instance. 

But i dont think outside of smaller ops any one is running a rdwc set up for major agriculture. 

I love rdwc setups (this pertains to mine as everyones is different)

Here are my design pros and cons
Pro super oxygenates the water
Via waterfall, flooming(ish), sufrace disruption, and airstones (they add fresh air in the system and churn the bottom up).

Very nutrient efficient as i dont run high ppms.

If the air pump fails i have the circ pump still going. Providing plenfy of DO 

If the circ pump dies it will essentially be a dwc setup.
So pretty safe as oppesed to a aero pump failure . Or just plain dwc ait pump failure.


I built mine specifically to run a semi small res.
About 30 ish gallons max and im running 28 currently but ill probably go higher next run. To try it.

Now for the bad stuff lol......

All hydro setups have their pluses and minuses so far in my exp.(lp aero,nft,dwc, aero/dwc, and coco)

For rdwc the cons in my opinion are.

Huge nutrients usage most people are running like 50 g setups and if you dump every two weeks it adds up.

They can be a pain to clean completely .

They are prone to root issues if the conditions allow it. Ie low flow,aeration,water temps ect.

The circ pump adds heat either to the room or the res i have mine in the res and it tuns about 72-77 on hot days so far .

But i havent taken huge measure to drop temps as im running hydroguard to see if it works .so far so good. But its in the back of my mind.

The air pumps add heat to the water as well  this is offset by a cooling fan the airpump but its still there.

Leak potential . (I have a love hate relationship with bulk heads and uniseals lol )

Difficulty inspecting the roots if you scrog them cause sometime the plants pin down the lids lol.
These are the cons i can think of for now.

So my criteria for my next system is as follows. 

Circ pumps and air pumps optional.

Leak proof for real 

Easy to clean

Easy to inspect roots.

No chiller required or dependant on constant pumps (reduces energy costs equipment costs ect)

If i can figure out how to do those thing with the next system ill be quite happy  end of novel


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## Budley Doright (Feb 19, 2018)

I've got the leak thing pretty much solved with fixing what I've had lol. I use shower drain fittings and boat hull fittings now and as long as I don't step in em (yes it happens) they work well. The roots are an unstoppable animal lol I've finally started to use silkscreen (had lots for DIY hash machine) which works well and have it incorporated in all of my ebb and flow fittings. I love hydroguard and it saved my crop a while back, wish I could still get it . I can get about 24/36 hours of pump down time which my setup now before the death zone but it's still a concern. I'm trying to use shit I have, as money is tight, got two weddings to help pay for this year, one in Bermuda, trying to save . Thanks for the ideals, still waffling. Throwing the beans in this week lol.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 19, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> The roots are an unstoppable animal lol I've finally started to use silkscreen (had lots for DIY hash machine) which works well and have it incorporated in all of my ebb and flow fittings.


Ive been worried about roots growing into drains. I dont have silk screen, but would window screen work?


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## Budley Doright (Feb 19, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Ive been worried about roots growing into drains. I dont have silk screen, but would window screen work?


No it doesn't, I've tried everything and the only thing I've found that actually works is the silk screen which I buy from an art supply but you can get it online as well. It's pricey but I've used mine for 2-3 years now, after 5 years of hash making, it is synthetic though.
Edit: make sure you provide access to clean it, I have to rinse it once or twice a run.


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## zypheruk (Feb 19, 2018)

Trim your roots before going to 12/12 helps a lot and will not screw up the plant at all.


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## Budley Doright (Feb 19, 2018)

zypheruk said:


> Trim your roots before going to 12/12 helps a lot and will not screw up the plant at all.


I trimmed my roots once and the plant basically stopped growing for a couple of weeks. I found stopping them was the best solution.


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## zypheruk (Feb 19, 2018)

If you cut to much yeah they will stall for a week or so. take about 30% no more. Never had a problem with it even in coco or flood and drain.


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## Budley Doright (Feb 19, 2018)

I cut what had went down the drain to unblock it, not sure what percentage but I prefer to just leave roots alone if possible . Seems to work better in my setup .


----------



## Cold$moke (Feb 19, 2018)

The way my rdwc set up is
I have my airstones kinda under my return pipe and the air keeps the roots from growing in there so far though. Ill let you k ow in 8-10 weeks if it satuas that way lol


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## Cold$moke (Feb 19, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Ive been worried about roots growing into drains. I dont have silk screen, but would window screen work?


Would that dacron fabric you have still allow waterflow?

Ive thought about this thats why i built my latest setup with taller containers hopefully to give roots room .

But i read that roots will not grow into copper and thought about copper mesh.
But i did not want anythong weird to happen like copper toxicity but i always wondered if it works


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## Larry3215 (Feb 19, 2018)

The dacron I have (actually I think its rip-stop nylon) wont let enough water through. Its definitely just a slooow trickle.

I'll have to look for some silk screen I guess.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 19, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> No it doesn't, I've tried everything and the only thing I've found that actually works is the silk screen which I buy from an art supply but you can get it online as well. It's pricey but I've used mine for 2-3 years now, after 5 years of hash making, it is synthetic though.
> Edit: make sure you provide access to clean it, I have to rinse it once or twice a run.


Dos it matter what mesh size? Ive seen it from 120-160 so far.


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## Budley Doright (Feb 20, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Dos it matter what mesh size? Ive seen it from 120-160 so far.


Mine is 120 I think but it was a while ago, sorry . It was for screen printing but not sure the exact mesh size.


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## Larry3215 (Feb 20, 2018)

Ok, thanks!


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## Larry3215 (Mar 4, 2018)

I started a new thread with build details.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/three-types-of-hydro-in-a-small-tent-on-one-airpump.960095/


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## Keesje (May 2, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> i'd bet a 100 that if you veg 2 clones side by side for say 3 or 4 weeks, one in e&f, one in dwc, the dwc plants is bigger overall, bigger roots, and more weight at harvest.


I think it would depend on the amount of time the water stays in the tray during flow in an E&F ystem.
And also on the schedule. 
If you would have a cycle of 15 minutes on and 15 minutes off for example, there will be not much difference between DWC and E&F.
To grow, plants need 3 things 1) nutrient, 2) water and 3) oxygen.
As longs as plants have them available for most of the time, they will grow well.

In a lot of E&F systems the plants use up all the nutrient after some time, and then they have to wait for the next run.
And yes, comparing to this, DWC of course performs better, because nutrients are available 24/7.


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## ANC (Jul 8, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Ok so if im reading it correctly.
> 
> Basically the guy in the video is using the batting as the disposable layer. And yhe bottom of his table act as the impenetrable layer .
> 
> ...


I finally got my version of this running....
Will let you know how it goes.

It's a shame the video got pulled....


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## Larry3215 (Jul 11, 2018)

Are you doing the nft thing with the fabric batting as in that video?

Would love to see pics or any details you have.


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## ANC (Jul 11, 2018)

Yes, exactly like that.. will take some pics tomorrow.


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## ANC (Jul 13, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Are you doing the nft thing with the fabric batting as in that video?
> 
> Would love to see pics or any details you have.


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## Larry3215 (Jul 13, 2018)

Nice! Looking forward to seeing how this works for you.


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## ANC (Jul 13, 2018)

Yeah, I will post pics if I remember, It might end up as just 4 plants as the middle one is a late replacement for one that didn't make it.
I made a mistake in not taking the cold into account when I cut my clones... These ones should have been big already.


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## Larry3215 (Jul 14, 2018)

Forgot to ask - how big a pump are you running?


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## ANC (Jul 14, 2018)

Oh, it is a beast... I think it is about a 30W pump, I just used one I had around the house.
No need for it to be so strong.


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## ANC (Jul 18, 2018)

I just checked in on the girls...
It is going better than expected.
The corner I lifted the plastic on to check, had like 1 foot long white roots growing along the bottom of the batting after 1 week.


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## Larry3215 (Jul 18, 2018)

ANC said:


> I just checked in on the girls...
> It is going better than expected.
> The corner I lifted the plastic on to check, had like 1 foot long white roots growing along the bottom of the batting after 1 week.


We need pics or it didnt happen


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## ANC (Jul 18, 2018)

Tomorrow, I promise, I didn't put my phone in my pocket when I went to change out the nutrient solution... I need to go sort out some of those seedlings in the little tub too. So I have to go into the veg room. 

Edit.. hold on, I wasn't sure if I put the pump back in the water so I had to go in there quickly, will upload now.


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## ANC (Jul 18, 2018)

Notice how the plants grew in these few days


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## Larry3215 (Jul 18, 2018)

Nice - for some reason I get all worked up about root pics... even baby root pics! 

What batting/fabric is that? It looks a lot thicker than what I had.

I cant quite tell from that pic - are the roots growing IN the batting or just under it?

That was one of my 'issues'. My roots were happy to grow over or under my batting, but not so much IN the batting - except to pass straight through it from top to bottom.

From what I recall of those videos, it sure looked like his roots were using the batting as a medium to grow IN rather than under/over. I dont know that that is good or bad as such, just not the result I was expecting to see and different from what his looked like in the video.


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## led1k (Jul 18, 2018)

ANC said:


> Notice how the plants grew in these few days


It looks they they grew a ton. It would be great to see another pic from your 1st pic perspective.


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## ANC (Jul 18, 2018)

It is a thickish batting, was going to go with a thinner one, then changed my mind in the shop.

The roots seem to be growing stuck on the bottom side of the batting now, which is cool as that is where the water passes...
I'm pretty sure it will just be one carpet by the time it is done.


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## ANC (Jul 20, 2018)

led1k said:


> It looks they they grew a ton. It would be great to see another pic from your 1st pic perspective.


 7 days between pics


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## led1k (Jul 21, 2018)

ANC said:


> 7 days between pics


They did grow a ton! 

I'm with Larry...


Larry3215 said:


> for some reason I get all worked up about root pics... even baby root pics!


How are the roots looking?


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## ANC (Jul 21, 2018)

Had a look this afternoon, the roots are beautiful and definitely seem to grow somewhat into the batting as well as in the damp layer under it.
The middle clone also finally seems to be showing some new growth at its tip, so that is good news. The table was supposed to be 10 plants, but the cloning was a big mess with the rockwool in the cold. All the seedlings is me hunting for a male.


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## ANC (Jul 24, 2018)

So I noticed I left the pump unplugged on Sunday when I went to change the nutrient solution today.
Other than looking a bit hungry, the plants still looked fine and the roots are getting massive.


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## Jefferson1977 (Jul 24, 2018)

I run ebb and flow too. I used to use Rockwool but now just use baskets with Hydroton. @ANC what is that white mat you have on the bottom of the table? I have my table covered in plastic like yours but I just let the roots run down the channels in the table, no mat.

Here is a pic of my roots right before I flipped to 12/12.


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## ANC (Jul 24, 2018)

It is just polyester batting that is used to stuff upholstery and cushions. It looks like rough cotton wool but is made from polyester so it doesn't break down.

I normally grow in coco but I saw someone use this system on youtube, and the results were great. Also no fuss no mess cleanup. When you are done you just roll the whole root system up and put it in a trash bag or burn it.


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## Jefferson1977 (Jul 24, 2018)

ANC said:


> It is just polyester batting that is used to stuff upholstery and cushions. It looks like rough cotton wool but is made from polyester so it doesn't break down.


Is there some benefit to it? I could see it holding water for a bit longer than if you did not have it.


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## ANC (Jul 24, 2018)

Yes, It creates a damp zone for the roots. And it helps the water spread evenly over the table as it runs down from the high to the low side.
Also, it will act as an anchor once the roots grow into each other., which they probably have... they are extending well past the end of the batting now.


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## Larry3215 (Jul 24, 2018)

Without pics - it didnt happen..... WE NEED PICS!!!!!!!!!!! 

I might also want a link to the exac t batting you bought. My roots didnt like the batting I chose.


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## Jefferson1977 (Jul 24, 2018)

I could see batting being a necessity with 4 inch cubes but with the baskets I use I don't think it would have too much value add as I don't need anchors and the roots seem to be doing awesome as you can see in my pic above. I'm flooding 12 times a day 15 minutes each time right now.


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## ANC (Jul 25, 2018)

I've been watering every 6 hours


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## Jefferson1977 (Jul 25, 2018)

Yeah, you would probably have to water less with the mat at least when they are small. Mine are this big, I could probably water them less cycles but they seem to prefer more. Last night they grew 4-6 inches in 8 hours (flowering stretch), it was wild to see with my own eyes.


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## led1k (Jul 25, 2018)

Jefferson1977 said:


> Last night they grew 4-6 inches in 8 hours (flowering stretch), it was wild to see with my own eyes.View attachment 4170838


How far into your flowering cycle did this happen? That would be an amazing time lapse.


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## ANC (Jul 25, 2018)

Lucky you, I had my early flower stretch cut short by cold temp and a broken dehumidifier...
Going to be a small harvest.


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## Jefferson1977 (Jul 25, 2018)

led1k said:


> How far into your flowering cycle did this happen? That would be an amazing time lapse.


 It happened yesterday at day 7. That pic is Day 6. The plants are through the top scrog net now. If I had known I would have time lapsed it, but I checked it in the morning and then the afternoon and it blew my mind. All 4-6'' of growth occurred in the dark too which was wild.


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## Larry3215 (Jul 25, 2018)

A friendly reminder.......we NEED ROOT PICS!!


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## ANC (Jul 25, 2018)

Plants do most of their growing in the dark yes.
I love to check my plants out just as the lights come on, you can see the lighter new growth.


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## Jefferson1977 (Jul 25, 2018)

ANC said:


> Lucky you, I had my early flower stretch cut short by cold temp and a broken dehumidifier...
> Going to be a small harvest.


That sucks, but on the other end of the spectrum I am going to run out of room to raise the lights with these 10 week sativas and it's only week 1 of bud lol.


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## ANC (Jul 25, 2018)

Early enough to still give them a hard supercrop.


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## Jefferson1977 (Jul 25, 2018)

ANC said:


> Early enough to still give them a hard supercrop.


Oh yeah I have no choice. I pinch right up until week 5 or so if I have to.


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## ANC (Jul 25, 2018)

I'd bend the outside branches to the sides, and then work my way to the centre, just cropping everything out to the sides, so you go wider rather than up.
Keep some tape ready, the branches may be pretty hard already.

Hydro grows like a motherfucker, flip earlier next time.


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## Jefferson1977 (Jul 25, 2018)

ANC said:


> I'd bend the outside branches to the sides, and then work my way to the centre, just cropping everything out to the sides, so you go wider rather than up.
> Keep some tape ready, the branches may be pretty hard already.
> 
> Hydro grows like a motherfucker, flip earlier next time.


Yeah, in part it was my poor planning, but also never grown these two strains before and have no idea what to expect in stretch (Amherst Sour Diesel and Raspberry Cough), and had really rough clones so some grew better than others and I had to try and equalize growth with the first level scrog net before I flipped or I would have had really uneven growth on the table (even after topping). That's half the fun though, seeing how it turns out.


----------



## ANC (Jul 25, 2018)

That is part of why I just keep running one strain over and over from clones off the previous batch.
It is amazing how humidity and temperature indoors, can affect the expression of the plant.

If you go unsealed without CO2, the best thing your room can have is an open window or door to outside for fresh CO2.


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## Jefferson1977 (Jul 25, 2018)

ANC said:


> That is part of why I just keep running one strain over and over from clones off the previous batch.
> It is amazing how humidity and temperature indoors, can affect the expression of the plant.
> 
> If you go unsealed without CO2, the best thing your room can have is an open window or door to outside for fresh CO2.


100% agree, fresh air is very important and why I run with a window open (unless it gets too hot and have to close it to run AC). I also have ExhaleCO2 bag hanging over the table which I'm sure adds a little bit of fresh CO2 to the room as well.

I also used to run the same strain from clones of the old clones over and over, and I did for years. Best ever yield I got was when I had the best ventilation from an open window on the third floor.


----------



## led1k (Jul 26, 2018)

Jefferson1977 said:


> All 4-6'' of growth occurred in the dark too which was wild.


Night vision time lapse? Would the infrared cause problems with flowering?


----------



## Jefferson1977 (Jul 26, 2018)

led1k said:


> Night vision time lapse? Would the infrared cause problems with flowering?


Apparently the spectrum needs to be 940nm to not cause issues with flowering. Lots of cameras have that spectrum for their nightvision.


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## ANC (Jul 30, 2018)

I didn't put the plug in deeply enough (it was catching on the timer), so the fuckers went without water for nearly a week... The one on the right and rear was the only one to droop (the inlet moved so it sprayed over it the last time I watered). Bounced right back though but stretched loads in a day after the watering. Actually forgot to turn the li8ghts up, they look ready to take the whole 300W. I'm nipping out the tips so they should be getting quite bushy.


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## Larry3215 (Aug 7, 2018)

How they doing?


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## ANC (Aug 7, 2018)

Getting big, the roots feel about as thick as the batting now... had a peek this morning, to make sure the feed line is still pointed in the right direction... (something I need to work on a bit, I don't like the fact that it can move. I need a bunch of cuttings, So I'm letting them stretch a bit with lowish light.

Pretty sure one of the smaller plants is a male with its leggy structure.. Will take some pics tomorrow. I bought some copper-based stuff to clean them up a bit, they have a few funny spots after I let them run dry. I'd rather not take chances...

Also still need to figure out how I am going to sterilize the roots from time to time... I guess I can use peroxide or pool shock. It is not an issue yet. But it will become warmer soon.


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## Jefferson1977 (Aug 7, 2018)

Mine are good too. No room to raise lights. LST and pinched stems for the ones too close.


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## Larry3215 (Aug 7, 2018)

Jefferson1977 said:


> Mine are good too. No room to raise lights. LST and pinched stems for the ones too close.
> 
> View attachment 4177532


I forget - are you running the same type of system with the batting?


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## Jefferson1977 (Aug 8, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> I forget - are you running the same type of system with the batting?


Same system, no batting. F&D with hydrocorn in baskets, 18 floods a day 15 mins per.


----------



## ANC (Aug 9, 2018)




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## Larry3215 (Aug 9, 2018)

Those roots look very happy!


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## Jefferson1977 (Aug 9, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Those roots look very happy!


my roots look like that except there is no batting. So it's just root mass that looks like batting. I will take a pic. My roots are slightly more brown from my nutrient (MegaCrop).


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## ANC (Aug 9, 2018)

Mine would have been dead by now if it wasn't for the batting.

It is a neglected grow, as I need to pass through 2 doors and a locked gate to get to them...

Gave them their first copper spray last night


----------



## Jefferson1977 (Aug 9, 2018)

ANC said:


> Mine would have been dead by now if it wasn't for the batting.
> 
> It is a neglected grow, as I need to pass through 2 doors and a locked gate to get to them...
> 
> Gave them their first copper spray last night


um why (copper spray?) I do zero spray only but I smoke it, so.


----------



## ANC (Aug 9, 2018)

Me too, but they are showing a few strange spots... Most of the plants will be cut off this week to make clones, so very little of the shit should be around by harvest time a few months down the line.

It all started with a few dirty clones a friend dropped off here... I first had to eradicate a mite swarm, and now this. Might be part of why my scrog is doing so badly too. But that tray is less than 2 weeks from chop time.


----------



## Major Blazer (Aug 10, 2018)

This thread has kinda gone all over but based off what i see in the beginning, the main point of all this plumbing is derived out of fear/concern over pump heat, right? In flood/drain if you're say 100% hydroton or grow stone, you're pump will be on for about 5 feeds /day. Add some grow cubes or other higher absorption medium to the mix and cut that in half. You may have ambient air heat issues, but with flood and drain heat issues from the pump should not exist since its hardly on. I'm into the plumbing though, I love the auto siphon trick, good stuff!


----------



## Jefferson1977 (Aug 10, 2018)

Every day I am thankful I switched from RDWC to Flood/drain. Anyways here are my roots at week 3.5 in flower.

Just gotta watch the roots don't fill the holes in my auto-syphon, I check that almost daily.


----------



## Major Blazer (Aug 10, 2018)

Jefferson1977 said:


> Every day I am thankful I switched from RDWC to Flood/drain. Anyways here are my roots at week 3.5 in flower.View attachment 4178966
> 
> Just gotta watch the roots don't fill the holes in my auto-syphon, I check that almost daily.


I know there's a bunch of factors going into making a switch like that - I had a few runs in standalone dwc buckets, totes, and then to rdwc but I'm curious, what was the crux of your experience with dwc? Sorry if I missed that somewhere else


----------



## Jefferson1977 (Aug 10, 2018)

Major Blazer said:


> I know there's a bunch of factors going into making a switch like that - I had a few runs in standalone dwc buckets, totes, and then to rdwc but I'm curious, what was the crux of your experience with dwc? Sorry if I missed that somewhere else


I just didn't like having to worry about the water temp. My ebb and flow reservoir gets up to 85 degrees sometimes and is regularly at 80, and I have no root rot etc. Plus it was a super pain to change the water.


----------



## Major Blazer (Aug 10, 2018)

Jefferson1977 said:


> I just didn't like having to worry about the water temp. My ebb and flow reservoir gets up to 85 degrees sometimes and is regularly at 80, and I have no root rot etc. Plus it was a super pain to change the water.


Nice man. Seems like we got fed up with DWC exactly the same reasons. I have a flood tray now myself and cannot wait to run my first flower with it


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## ANC (Aug 21, 2018)

Watch how that tiny Swazi seedling shot up past everything



Jefferson1977 said:


> I just didn't like having to worry about the water temp. My ebb and flow reservoir gets up to 85 degrees sometimes and is regularly at 80, and I have no root rot etc. Plus it was a super pain to change the water.


Look up python and aquarium, you can buy or make your own... if you have access to a tap It can be used to fill the tank or start the siphon to drain water with the same pipe.


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## Jefferson1977 (Aug 23, 2018)

ANC said:


> View attachment 4184555 View attachment 4184556
> 
> Watch how that tiny Swazi seedling shot up past everything
> View attachment 4184557
> Look up python and aquarium, you can buy or make your own... if you have access to a tap It can be used to fill the tank or start the siphon to drain water with the same pipe.


Cool idea, but I run ebb and flow now and could care less about changing one reservoir, it isn't a pain. I was referring to my 12 site RDWC which was a pain to change and suck shit out of each bucket. Stuff is going well in my ebb and flow.


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## ANC (Aug 29, 2018)

Lol, the root carpet is over an inch thick in places...

This is the easiest grow I've ever done... no ppm or pH measurements made to date... I just pump out the water every week, wash the tub and refill her.


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## ANC (Sep 13, 2018)

Been a while since I updated
The tray was carried to the flowering room... it weighs nearly nothing.
Also, I removed the tall sativa to its own pot... I just cut a square into the root carpet and replaced it with a new piece of batting. I will take it outdoors, I hope it is a boy. All the signs are there except balls. I have a cutting of it going too.

Had too many side projects and the bitches got a bit wild... Just gonna flip them and let them do their thing. The cloner has been running with cuts for a week already.

Keep your dick in a vice.


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## Demetrius Powell (Sep 25, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Hello everyone! I am hoping to get some feedback on my first ever hydro plans. Im in the final weeks of my first MJ grow in soil and its going pretty well. I have decided that I want to try a hydro grow next time around.
> 
> After tons of reading, I have decided to try an ebb/flow setup with two plants in scrog. My grow tent is roughly 7 sq ft (28”x38”x48”tall) and I have a 300 watts LED light fixture using 3500k Solstrips (the same led’s as in Quantum Boards).
> 
> ...


Buy a 4x4 tray you can use an ordinary clothing tote for a res I'll go higher than 17 gals if I was you


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## ANC (Sep 26, 2018)

Yeah, my reservoir is way too small. half the water is gone after 3 days. But I'm gonna keep at it as a reference point. then I will adjust a few parameters next round.
The next table is going up in a few hours. I saw some 250L totes... currently using a 56l one.


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## ANC (Sep 26, 2018)

OK, I decided I will document the next set of plants going through the new table...
So, to start I cut a bunch of clones and made a simple cloner... Ignore the white spots, it is just dust from the table saw I used to cut the table. The previous table was made from PVC tube, but I had lots of wood left to use.


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## ANC (Sep 26, 2018)

Here you can see how nicely it works, I had 100% of cuttings root. There is nothing but water in the bucket, but I sprinkle some root hormone into the water on about day 6.

Inside the water is a simple pump, with a vertical pipe, blocked off on the end and a simple 360 degree irrigation sprinkler inserted into the cap after drilling.


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## ANC (Sep 26, 2018)

Here are some more pics.
You can see the cuttings are held in place with neoprene foam I cut out of a children's play mat.
You can put more than one cutting in a disk, it is OK the plants are small.
Once rooted, transplant them into rockwool cubes that have been pH adjusted and finally watered with a feeding solution at clone strength... I cheated and used the organic feed I normally use in coco.


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## ANC (Sep 26, 2018)

Ok time to set up your slanted table, the rear legs are taller than the front to help gravity feed water to the hole later on in our process.

 I cut the polyester batting to the size of the tray and add a little peepee at the hole to suck out any water that doesn't make it to the lip of the hole. Next I put panda film on and then the new clones go on top of that.


For now the clones are just sitting on the batting... I had other things to get done.
So, you will need to wait for the next installment. Basically not much is going to happen with the cubes until we see roots peeking out the bottom. Water them by hand if needs be from time to time.

I will put up the film tomorrow and show you what it should look like when you are this far.
We still have a few days to set up our feed line and reservoir... but they are not needed right away.

The best part about this system is the tray is so light, my wife and me can carry it full of mature plants to the flower room without any effort,


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## led1k (Sep 26, 2018)

ANC said:


> View attachment 4205665
> Ok time to set up your slanted table, the rear legs are taller than the front to help gravity feed water to the hole later on in our process.
> 
> View attachment 4205666 I cut the polyester batting to the size of the tray and add a little peepee at the hole to suck out any water that doesn't make it to the lip of the hole. Next I put panda film on and then the new clones go on top of that.
> ...


Super helpful! Waiting for tomorrow


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## ANC (Sep 26, 2018)

No problem... start doing the math on how much you spend on hydroton, soil or coco for a 4x2 tray normally... and the shit of dealing with it post grow. That is probably a dollar's worth of batting, and 10 dollars of cubes.


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## Demetrius Powell (Sep 26, 2018)

ANC said:


> No problem... start doing the math on how much you spend on hydroton, soil or coco for a 4x2 tray normally... and the shit of dealing with it post grow. That is probably a dollar's worth of batting, and 10 dollars of cubes.


I hate hydroton I use perlite haven't grown in a min since my buddy got busted but I'm a ebb and flow guy the only thing I'll buy is a flood tray I use to use rockwool but I found perlite to be alot cheaper plus you can flood the plants more than once a day


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## Major Blazer (Sep 26, 2018)

I'm doing my first ebb/flow grow, 2 weeks into flower now, and took a very traditional-ish route with 3 gal fabric pots filled with about 2" of rockwool cubes on the bottom and hydroton above it and this has been the easiest grow I've ever done. Maybe it's just all around experience? Hard to say but the results are speaking for themselves. My biggest annoyance is that it's actually so hands-off, I'm a bit bored lmao.


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## Demetrius Powell (Sep 26, 2018)

Major Blazer said:


> I'm doing my first ebb/flow grow, 2 weeks into flower now, and took a very traditional-ish route with 3 gal fabric pots filled with about 2" of rockwool cubes on the bottom and hydroton above it and this has been the easiest grow I've ever done. Maybe it's just all around experience? Hard to say but the results are speaking for themselves. My biggest annoyance is that it's actually so hands-off, I'm a bit bored lmao.


Congrats I use 1 gallon square pots what I use to do was create a mother from fem seeds then throw my clones under 12/12


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## Demetrius Powell (Sep 26, 2018)

Major Blazer said:


> I'm doing my first ebb/flow grow, 2 weeks into flower now, and took a very traditional-ish route with 3 gal fabric pots filled with about 2" of rockwool cubes on the bottom and hydroton above it and this has been the easiest grow I've ever done. Maybe it's just all around experience? Hard to say but the results are speaking for themselves. My biggest annoyance is that it's actually so hands-off, I'm a bit bored lmao.


By the way what nute line do you run?


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## Demetrius Powell (Sep 26, 2018)

Major Blazer said:


> I'm doing my first ebb/flow grow, 2 weeks into flower now, and took a very traditional-ish route with 3 gal fabric pots filled with about 2" of rockwool cubes on the bottom and hydroton above it and this has been the easiest grow I've ever done. Maybe it's just all around experience? Hard to say but the results are speaking for themselves. My biggest annoyance is that it's actually so hands-off, I'm a bit bored lmao.


General hydro is my favorite brand I like to keep things simple


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## ANC (Sep 26, 2018)

Demetrius Powell said:


> I hate hydroton I use perlite haven't grown in a min since my buddy got busted but I'm a ebb and flow guy the only thing I'll buy is a flood tray I use to use rockwool but I found perlite to be alot cheaper plus you can flood the plants more than once a day


I hate the mess perlite makes, these trays are watered every few hours once the roots hit the batting.


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## led1k (Sep 27, 2018)

Demetrius Powell said:


> General hydro is my favorite brand I like to keep things simple


Megacrop! One part. Amazing. Lots of folks including me love it.


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## ANC (Sep 27, 2018)

I suppose I need to post for the record that I used the Flora 3 part series for the plants above.
I have had nothing but trouble with it in coco, but it has been uneventful in hydro.
It does really produce a shitload of trichomes, but so does being stressed the fuck out the whole time.


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## Major Blazer (Sep 27, 2018)

Demetrius Powell said:


> Congrats I use 1 gallon square pots what I use to do was create a mother from fem seeds then throw my clones under 12/12


 That's exactly what I did but I did let them veg for a bit just to top them once and supercrop once (10 days total veg) for scrog readiness. 


Demetrius Powell said:


> General hydro is my favorite brand I like to keep things simple


GH as well, Maxi bloom but I've added GH Silica, a splash of cal-mag (only bc I saw a deficiency - I use tap water), and cx hydroponics regen-a-root.


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## Major Blazer (Sep 27, 2018)

This was at 12 days.


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## ANC (Sep 27, 2018)

Don't think I'll get to those clones today, but there is no rush. Had to do water change in the reservoir and cut new clones and clean up the big plants a bit. So, I have been keeping a bit busy.

I just wanted to post this quick root shot of what is happening under the batting.... A 2" thick root carpet...with roots like that, who needs a medium?


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## Demetrius Powell (Sep 27, 2018)

Major Blazer said:


> This was at 12 days.
> View attachment 4206054





Major Blazer said:


> This was at 12 days.
> View attachment 4206054


Damn that's beautiful!


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## Demetrius Powell (Sep 27, 2018)

ANC said:


> View attachment 4206059
> Don't think I'll get to those clones today, but there is no rush. Had to do water change in the reservoir and cut new clones and clean up the big plants a bit. So, I have been keeping a bit busy.
> 
> I just wanted to post this quick root shot of what is happening under the batting.... A 2" thick root carpet...with roots like that, who needs a medium?


If it ain't broke don't fix it those roots look super healthy bro


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## ANC (Oct 9, 2018)

OK, I should probably have done this over the weekend already but didn't know it will get so hot so quickly.
Here is the T that will feed the top end. 

 
It is just a simple screw-in nozzle with quite a large hole so nothing can get clogged.

 

you will need a pump and timer too.


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## led1k (Oct 9, 2018)

ANC said:


> It is just a simple screw-in nozzle with quite a large hole so nothing can get clogged.


Where did you get the nozzles?


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## ANC (Oct 9, 2018)

local garden suppply... it is called a spike adaptor on the label.. it is just a hole realy... 
You could probably just drill. 1/8th holes in a tee pipe...


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## ANC (Oct 30, 2018)

Look how big our clones are now, almost no light reaches the floor.
Well, they got a big haircut after I took the pics as I needed a bunch of clones.


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## Major Blazer (Nov 2, 2018)

Bumping this bc I am really loving growing with ebb and flow and I think it's become out of fashion for no good reason. 
Plants at 7wks


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## ANC (Nov 3, 2018)

Nice man, I messed up a bit with the choice of nutes for my hydro run. 
Going to be on the small side again. Success is basically just running out of ways to fail.


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## ANC (Dec 3, 2018)

I forgot to post here for a while, I need to take a pic tomorrow, it is basically a month from that pic was taken. The place is overgrown despite me taking a bucket full of clones 3 weeks ago.
The previous run was a bit shitty, I should have measured pH and ppm. By the time trouble set in, we already hit the stretch phase, and then it just stopped. I took everything down and got 200g sellable grade weed and not much else, due to pretty ruthlessly culling unwanted buds.


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## ThaMagnificent (Dec 4, 2018)

ANC said:


> View attachment 4205654 View attachment 4205655 View attachment 4205656
> Here are some more pics.
> You can see the cuttings are held in place with neoprene foam I cut out of a children's play mat.
> You can put more than one cutting in a disk, it is OK the plants are small.
> Once rooted, transplant them into rockwool cubes that have been pH adjusted and finally watered with a feeding solution at clone strength... I cheated and used the organic feed I normally use in coco.


What do you make the holes with and what medium do you plug with?


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## ANC (Dec 4, 2018)

ThaMagnificent said:


> What do you make the holes with and what medium do you plug with?


I use a downlighter drill kit (It is cheaper than hole saws) and comes with a number of sizes in the box. Remember to deburr your holes so your foam sits flush.
My disks were cut from a neoprene children's playmat. The type that has the puzzle edges.


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## ANC (Dec 4, 2018)




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## ThaMagnificent (Dec 4, 2018)

ANC said:


> I use a downlighter drill kit (It is cheaper than hole saws) and comes with a number of sizes in the box. Remember to deburr your holes so your foam sits flush.
> My disks were cut from a neoprene children's playmat. The type that has the puzzle edges.


what medium did you use to transplant into the hole?


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## ANC (Dec 4, 2018)

No medium, I am confused are you talking about the cloning bucket?
The tray has 4x4 rock wool cubes on 3/4" polyester batting covered in panda film.


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## ANC (Dec 12, 2018)

That bank of hydro moms are working out great. I took almost 50 clones last night and it hardly made a dent in the bush.

Pics were taken 5 days apart


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## ANC (Dec 12, 2018)




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## Major Blazer (Dec 13, 2018)

@ANC You go straight to 12/12 after they root?


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## ANC (Dec 13, 2018)

I did yes. I basically just waited till the leaves started showing new growth after transplant to the large cube. I think it was about 3 or 4 days... Id have to check my calendar

There are about 3 plants that are a little short but I have one tallish clone I was hardening off, that I might swap in there as it is the same height as the tall ones.
I've already cut the clones for another tray, but I cut them maybe 2" tall... will compare and see what works best for me and my cultivar.


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## Major Blazer (Dec 13, 2018)

That’s cool, I always wanted to try a sog grow. Do you have a journal anywhere running with this style grow?


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## ANC (Dec 13, 2018)

you are looking at it sorta. First run like this.


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## led1k (Dec 13, 2018)

ANC said:


> That bank of hydro moms are working out great. I took almost 50 clones last night and it hardly made a dent in the bush.


You also mentioned panda film but the picture looks like the rockwool is sitting on top of the batting? How do you control algae? Even on the top of the cubes?


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## Major Blazer (Dec 13, 2018)

ANC said:


> you are looking at it sorta. First run like this.


Real curious what you pull (weight) per plant. I’ll stay tuned


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## ANC (Dec 13, 2018)

The leaves seem to be covering the exposed cubes pretty fast. Only saw one spot of algae under the smaller plants, I could probably spray it with peroxide but it is not a problem.
I didn;t quite work out a way to get this many cubes through panda film... Might try harder with the second batch. Also, my leftover panda film is at my other site atm. I suppose I could cut long strips, but I like how things are working so far.


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## ANC (Dec 13, 2018)

Major Blazer said:


> Real curious what you pull (weight) per plant. I’ll stay tuned


I'd be happy with 3 to 5g


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## led1k (Dec 13, 2018)

ANC said:


> The leaves seem to be covering the exposed cubes pretty fast. Only saw one spot of algae under the smaller plants, I could probably spray it with peroxide but it is not a problem.
> I didn;t quite work out a way to get this many cubes through panda film... Might try harder with the second batch. Also, my leftover panda film is at my other site atm. I suppose I could cut long strips, but I like how things are working so far.


Without panda film the roots will have access to more oxygen right? The downside being possible algae especially in my case LOL. With the film would there be enough oxygen for the roots? Seems like a Catch-22.


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## ANC (Dec 13, 2018)

The film is just a plastic sheet, so it is not really an issue. this system does not have a problem with providing enough oxygen. In fact, I'd say it is one of its strengths.in another 5 days, almost no light should hit the floor by my estimate.


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## MI.BUDZ (Dec 21, 2018)

Thoughts about a LPA in a EBB tray and use matting.... Definately use a EBB as a back up.

10”-15” LPA clones straight to flower upon tray harvest.

Been following this thread and referencing others using bigger clones with single colas with great results.


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## Major Blazer (Dec 21, 2018)

MI.BUDZ said:


> Thoughts about a LPA in a EBB tray and use matting.... Definately use a EBB as a back up.
> 
> 10”-15” LPA clones straight to flower upon tray harvest.
> 
> Been following this thread and referencing others using bigger clones with single colas with great results.


Seen a few people doing that. If you get the legit covers for the trays, you’ll get a couple extra inches clearance too


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## ANC (Dec 21, 2018)

Sorry, I'm slowly but surely turning old....what is LPA?


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## Major Blazer (Dec 21, 2018)

Low pressure aeroponics


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## ANC (Dec 24, 2018)

Clones above at this moment in time.


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## baaael (Dec 25, 2018)

Major Blazer said:


> Bumping this bc I am really loving growing with ebb and flow and I think it's become out of fashion for no good reason.
> Plants at 7wksView attachment 4226183


sick man!,what did u get ur ec up to max and when did u start to back them off,what strain is that,sorry late to the party,i like this batting idea alot to ANC


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## baaael (Dec 25, 2018)

ANC said:


> View attachment 4254675
> Clones above at this moment in time.


They look really good,are they gona any bigger,they look tall,when did u flip them man


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## ANC (Dec 25, 2018)

The flowers have started to bud so hopefully it is done stretching. We are approaching 4 weeks under 12/12. Strain is exodus cheese. I use a local brand of food ec levels are around 1ish. pH 5.5. 
The went in as soon as the roots came through the cubes (3 days) clones were about 4" tall


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## baaael (Dec 25, 2018)

ANC said:


> The flowers have started to bud so hopefully it is done stretching. We are approaching 4 weeks under 12/12. Strain is exodus cheese. I use a local brand of food ec levels are around 1ish. pH 5.5.
> The went in as soon as the roots came through the cubes (3 days) clones were about 4" tall


i saw you said u flipped them straight away,when i tried that, mine didn't get anywhere near that size even at finish but were nice still,my failed big time haha
So EC 1,is that because the plants are on the smaller side or do u run your EC at those levels normally,where do u cap that out,
i think running way to high,i,m at week 1 flower at 1.6! i was going to go to 2.4 but i was told to not go over 2.0,they are quite big as i vegged for 15days
It that a sativa strain the exodus cheese,i would've thought at 4 weeks they'd be done stretching


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## baaael (Dec 25, 2018)

ANC said:


> The flowers have started to bud so hopefully it is done stretching. We are approaching 4 weeks under 12/12. Strain is exodus cheese. I use a local brand of food ec levels are around 1ish. pH 5.5.
> The went in as soon as the roots came through the cubes (3 days) clones were about 4" tall


are you going to trim out the undergrowth or let them just fly as is ,they look very healthy


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## ANC (Dec 25, 2018)

I,ll leave em be. The next table is about to get started. I'll use smaller clones this time to compare. So i don't eant to add another variable yet


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## MI.BUDZ (Feb 20, 2019)

Bump.... I was following but it fell off


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## Demetrius Powell (Feb 20, 2019)

Yes ebb and flow is easy and very forgiving compared to other hydroponic methods


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## Jefferson1977 (Feb 20, 2019)

Second that. It's they only way to grow hydro IMO. Everything else is too finicky and too much work, although growth rates can be better in DWC.


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## Keesje (Feb 21, 2019)

Jefferson1977 said:


> although growth rates can be better in DWC.


Why is that?


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