# friend claims large fan leaves innefficient. Cut them off.



## anhedonia (Nov 9, 2008)

I have a neighbo who claims that when fan leaves become to large to cut them off so buds can get more light because large fan leaves are inneficient, claiming that this i biological fact. And smaller leaves cover more area than larger leaves. Bu to understand this concep you have to understand some facts about surface area and volume. Dude argud that people do this and they get better yeild than if they didnt do that. And his grower friends all cut off these inefficient fan leaves.


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## DaveTheNewbie (Nov 9, 2008)

i know a guy that said .... and he gets the best plants ever !
beware the expert !


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## smokeybandit22 (Nov 9, 2008)

well my mom cut my arms and legs off when i was a child so my brain could get bigger


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## dhhbomb (Nov 9, 2008)

well my rule of thumb always has been if the leaf doesnt look like it is blocking alot of light below leave it the only reason to trim is if it is blocking alot of light


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## CrackerJax (Nov 9, 2008)

Uhhh, the big leaf is the engine for the bud production. Less leaf, less bud. 



out.


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## misshestermoffitt (Nov 9, 2008)

Tell the friend to go cut the leaves off his plants and you'll take care of your own grow. 

The plant needs those leaves, think of them as a digestive organs, and the buds are sexual organs. Can your sexual organs digest your dinner? I didn't think so......


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## mistaphuck (Nov 9, 2008)

"buds closest to the light will grow larger and be more potent" - ready set grow. if leaves cover my bud i first try to move them if i cant i trim them


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## Picasso345 (Nov 9, 2008)

Pretty easy to test. Get some clones and go nuts.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 9, 2008)

leaves "collect" light, not "block" it.


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## Kushcrosser (Nov 9, 2008)

The large fan leaves help the plant to process sugars. Cuttin them off will result in smaller bud sites. If you cut too many, it could stress the plant and cause it to go hermi on you.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 9, 2008)

but what do we know? lolol


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## Picasso345 (Nov 9, 2008)

fdd2blk said:


> leaves "collect" light, not "block" it.


Yeah, I'm leaning towards millions of years of evolution vs the neighborhood knowitall guy.


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## anhedonia (Nov 9, 2008)

I tried to explain this. I have read and always followed the rule of not cutting off any leaves unless they fall off or are brown ad dying. Ive only been growing for over a year and I too wanted to cut off leaves my first grow but I didnt once I found out nt to do that.


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## jesus420 (Nov 9, 2008)

the buds will use the direct energy from the bud leaves as well as the carbohydrate energy produced by the big fan leaves... and those leaves have massive surface area which produces a LOT of energy for the whole plant including the buds.

at least i think.


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## mistaphuck (Nov 9, 2008)

think about it this way, dont the buds look much prettyer in direct light?


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## CrackerJax (Nov 10, 2008)

mistaphuck said:


> think about it this way, dont the buds look much prettyer in direct light?



YES!!! In exactly the same way that a smaller mustache looks better than a large mustache.... Heil Hitler!!! mmm wake and bake... 


out.


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## mistaphuck (Nov 10, 2008)

small mustaches dont look better than small ones just look at the muttonstache!


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## GrowTech (Nov 10, 2008)

GrowTech claims your friend is wrong.


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## CrackerJax (Nov 10, 2008)

CrackerJax claims that GrowTech claims your friend is wrong.




out.


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## mistaphuck (Nov 10, 2008)

Muttonstache!!!!!


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## GrowTech (Nov 10, 2008)

No... I shaved my sideburns and the hair on my cheeks. Now I have a frylok.


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## mistaphuck (Nov 10, 2008)

one of my bosses at work is the spitting image of carl voice baldness and everything


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## GrowTech (Nov 10, 2008)

bahahaha please oh please get a picture of him or video of him up on RIU ASAP... I have got to see this.

Carl was how i envisioned myself turning out... but my genetics turned out to be too good.


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## mistaphuck (Nov 10, 2008)

hes from brookln and hes not as pissed off al the time i think it might be cause he smokes like a chimeney


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## GrowTech (Nov 10, 2008)

bahahaha he's from brooklyn... ahhhh! after fourty i imagine everyone from brooklyn looks like carl! bahahaha


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## GrowTech (Nov 10, 2008)




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## mistaphuck (Nov 10, 2008)

even the women!lol


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## [email protected] (Nov 11, 2008)

leave the leaf


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## Jonus (Nov 11, 2008)

> Uhhh, the big leaf is the engine for the bud production. Less leaf, less bud.


Yeah, and the bud will take longer to ripen too, sucking the life out of what little leaves are left. Think of the fan leaves like solar panels...might help.


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## mistaphuck (Nov 12, 2008)

yes but if you have solar panels above solar panels wouldnt it render the lower ones innefective? if you dont want to cut your top leaves to let light through, then lollipop dem bitches so theres no need! buds get fatter too


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## CrackerJax (Nov 12, 2008)

mistaphuck said:


> yes but if you have solar panels above solar panels wouldnt it render the lower ones innefective? if you dont want to cut your top leaves to let light through, then lollipop dem bitches so theres no need! buds get fatter too



No....

The leaf which receives the most light will be the largest. In a way you are punishing the leaf for performing. Now you have removed the big leaf and your sweet plant must divert resources from growing the bud to growing bigger leaves. I only cut a fan leaf if it is bugged out or chewed up by a grasshopper. At least that is my take on it. Hope this helps.



out.


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## mistaphuck (Nov 12, 2008)

firstly it is possable to move leaves around. isnt a better use of your light to get as much surface area of the plant under direct light?


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## CrackerJax (Nov 12, 2008)

Well, I have far too many plants to be doing that and besides I like to handle my plants as little as possible. I'm gonna have faith in mother nature and if weed is set up on a particular system, who am I to disagree..... Go with the flow. Don't forget that buds do not grow by sunshine but by sunshine converted into energy through leaves and then to the buds. Bigger leaves mean more bud growth. I suppose if you didn't cut any leaves and decided to adjust your leaves for maximim exposure, that would be kewl .. but overly time consuming with marginal returns. I guess if you want to .. you could, but that's time away from downloading porn!! 



out.


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## mistaphuck (Nov 12, 2008)

yes porn is indeed important but i like to handle my plants and breathe all over them and stuff. lol poormans co2


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## CrackerJax (Nov 12, 2008)

Don't forget to fart on them as well. mmmmm... methane. 


out.


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## mistaphuck (Nov 12, 2008)

oh i do... i do


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## CrackerJax (Nov 12, 2008)

Doo doo and your little dog too? Ahhhahah my precious! 



out.


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## mistaphuck (Nov 12, 2008)

ok i are now kunfused


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## CrackerJax (Nov 12, 2008)

Look!! You kids keep it down in this thread, if I have to come back in here ONE MORE TIME (voice pitch rises with volume)!!!! (slams door) 




out.


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## ganjaman13 (Nov 12, 2008)

okay class what have we learned from this thread?


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## CrackerJax (Nov 12, 2008)

That all threads degenerate when a lot of stoners converse? 

So when I walked the roses over to the fireplace, my neck has been bothering me.



out.


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## tinyTURTLE (Nov 12, 2008)

smokeybandit22 said:


> well my mom cut my arms and legs off when i was a child so my brain could get bigger


 lol.
kinda, huh?

dont do it unless you are doing LST or a low scrog. and then only to keep leaves out of the soil.

think of the plant as a space station that is doing a power intensive project. is cutting off the solar panels gonna help? if you do it you do it to make way for light getting to lower growth so IT can grow big fan leaves and get tall.


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## mistaphuck (Nov 12, 2008)

well ive cut off a few fan leaves not alot but a few and look ay my plants! click da sig!


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## superman27nc (Nov 12, 2008)

I have a question everyone..i am thinking of doing a scrog on my next grow since my grow space is limited...I have read that a couple days after you put the plants into flowering to trim off all leaves and stems except the top 3-5 inter nodes..is this a smart choice?


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## fdd2blk (Nov 12, 2008)

nobody listens.


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## superman27nc (Nov 12, 2008)

im only asking this question cause its a scrog..never done this before..my first and current grow I haven't dared touch a leaf because I understand all the concepts of why the leaves are so important..but scrogging is all new to me..just wondering if anyone of you has done a scrog before and what you have done about pruning..im just looking to maximize my grow..all help appreciated..


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## Bamstone (Nov 12, 2008)

Never cut your fan leaves, they are the plant's batteries. If you are doing a scrog let them die naturally while the upper ones take over.


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## superman27nc (Nov 12, 2008)

thanks! Bam..again all advice is appreciated..


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## fdd2blk (Nov 12, 2008)

superman27nc said:


> im only asking this question cause its a scrog..never done this before..my first and current grow I haven't dared touch a leaf because I understand all the concepts of why the leaves are so important..but scrogging is all new to me..just wondering if anyone of you has done a scrog before and what you have done about pruning..im just looking to maximize my grow..all help appreciated..




i did an outdoor scrog. i removed no leaves.


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## barrgemike (Nov 12, 2008)

fdd2blk said:


> leaves "collect" light, not "block" it.


Best way to put it, right there.


Also, think of your plants as a fruit tree, if you cut all the leafs off, your going to have alot of burnt fruit.
Well, maybe not alot.


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## MrHowardMarks (Nov 12, 2008)

Actually, you *CAN* increase yield with pruning and stalking, especially in a ScROG...

Trimming everything below the screen and creating a even canopy above will yield bigger denser buds.

The energy used to grow the lower fans and inside branch popcorn buds will be transfered to the growing tops.

Trimming off all the fans is a bad idea, but getting rid of the ones on the bottom and inner branch buds will definately stimulate growth to the tops of the plant.

So...

Yes, trimming everything below the top 5 nodes in a ScROG will increase yield. 


And, yes, I'm listening...


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## tinyTURTLE (Nov 12, 2008)

fdd2blk said:


> i did an outdoor scrog. i removed no leaves./quote]
> 
> 
> i loled. oh jiminy crickits that is a peice of work. looks kinda like an almond tree or a small apple tree at first glance.


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## superman27nc (Nov 12, 2008)

fdd2blk said:


> i did an outdoor scrog. i removed no leaves.
> 
> 
> View attachment 239690 View attachment 239691 View attachment 239692 View attachment 239693


thanks..nice looking plants


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## superman27nc (Nov 12, 2008)

MrHowardMarks said:


> Actually, you *CAN* increase yield with pruning and stalking, especially in a ScROG...
> 
> Trimming everything below the screen and creating a even canopy above will yield bigger denser buds.
> 
> ...


thanks as well!..in your experience trimming did you clean out underneath the canopy before flowering or a certain time frame after..


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## MrHowardMarks (Nov 12, 2008)

Trimming and stalking should be done before the 2nd week of flowering.

I trim them up before flowering, and again after week one.


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## The Martian (Nov 12, 2008)

Hi All.
Disregarding scroging and any kind of special growth training, surely its godda be better to leave the leaves????
Any leaf, is part of the plants conversion system, IE solar energy into sugars/carbs/enzyms/homones/etc? so removing one leaf, because its shading another doesn't make sense, surely the leaf nearer the light source is gonna recieve light of a higher intensity? (knowing as we do that light obeys the inverse square law, (OK we know it raelly only aplies to a point souce, but it illustrates the importance of having the lightsource as near as possible)).
And doesn't a plant have a mechanism in the leaf/petiole to move and angle leaves to reacieve the maximum light it can?
Also it seems poeple like to remove leaves when they look less than perfect, but in a leaf that is dieing even, doesn't the plant try to recover all the good stuff from it before it gets rid of the leaf, that is all the colours changing as the plant removes anything usefull from it prior to dropping it?
So unless it is really "in the way" in some way, surely its better to leave it until either the plant drops it, or you decide its as good as spent.
After all, its already spent energy making some of the goodies that it is now removing from the leaf, before getting rid, and removing a healthy leaf is throwing away usefull ingredients the plant has already spent time producing.
Granted its not quite that simple, as some elements are mobile, some imobile.
I'd be interested to hear any other thoughts on this subject, as it seems there are almost as many opinions as growers.
Toodle Pip.


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## MrHowardMarks (Nov 12, 2008)

I always figured energy being spent on growing lower fan leaves and inside branches is useless and should be transfered to the growing top.

After trimming off innerbuds and lower fans I notice a boost of growth to the top of the plant, I don't remove upper fans, I just try to create a canopy of flowering tops, with no underbrush... I'll go fetch a pic so you can understand further. BRB


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## fdd2blk (Nov 12, 2008)

MrHowardMarks said:


> I always figured energy being spent on growing lower fan leaves and inside branches is useless and should be transfered to the growing top.
> 
> After trimming off innerbuds and lower fans I notice a boost of growth to the top of the plant, I don't remove upper fans, I just try to create a canopy of flowering tops, with no underbrush... I'll go fetch a pic so you can understand further. BRB



like this?


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## MrHowardMarks (Nov 12, 2008)

Here's a shot of the stalked bottoms...









Here's a top view after week one.







And the final product...


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## misshestermoffitt (Nov 12, 2008)

FDD, Those buds are bigger than the part of the tiki torch that holds the oil, damn...... 

MR Marks, can I come pitch a tent and live in your forest? I'll be real quiet, you won't even know I'm there.


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## MrHowardMarks (Nov 12, 2008)

fdd2blk said:


> like this? View attachment 239749


Yeah, your pic shows it a little better... I imagine it would create a considerable amount of stretch outdoors...

I also supercrop them to reduce the stretch, did you do that fdd?


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## superman27nc (Nov 12, 2008)

Dang all of those are some nice looking buds! Hey Mr. Howard..was that part of your grow or some you found on the web?


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## MrHowardMarks (Nov 12, 2008)

Twas mine, find it on the web pffftt.

Yeah MissHester, I actually crawled around under them to water... Pain in the back...


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## superman27nc (Nov 12, 2008)

MrHowardMarks said:


> Twas mine, find it on the web pffftt.
> 
> Yeah MissHester, I actually crawled around under them to water... Pain in the back...


awesome! very nice forest! i would like to live in it too!


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## MrHowardMarks (Nov 12, 2008)

I have more pic in the link to my albums in my sig...


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## superman27nc (Nov 12, 2008)

I have a couple more questions for you Mr Marks if you dont mind..when do you tops your plants for a scrog? and what do you mean by supercrop...thanks!


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## MrFishy (Nov 12, 2008)

So Howard, where'd the "within 2 weeks of 12/12" come from and what happens if a grower trims the bottom out later than that?


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## fdd2blk (Nov 12, 2008)

MrHowardMarks said:


> Twas mine, find it on the web pffftt.
> 
> Yeah MissHester, I actually crawled around under them to water... Pain in the back...




like this?


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## fdd2blk (Nov 12, 2008)

MrHowardMarks said:


> Yeah, your pic shows it a little better... I imagine it would create a considerable amount of stretch outdoors...
> 
> I also supercrop them to reduce the stretch, did you do that fdd?




i've tried super cropping. they just keep right on going.


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## MrHowardMarks (Nov 12, 2008)

Hells yeah, i watched your grow this summer, I have to say, I'm jealous, and you've got enormous balls...

I wish I could get an outdoor crop growing, but around here there's no 215, and the possibility of big trouble, so I keep it inside.


Supercropping- Pinching the stem to keep nodes closer together... Look it up.

Oh, if you liked the pics from before, and thought that it was a forest, I added 2 lights to my latest grow, 6 x 600W.


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## MrHowardMarks (Nov 12, 2008)

MrFishy said:


> So Howard, where'd the "within 2 weeks of 12/12" come from and what happens if a grower trims the bottom out later than that?



I personally decided that, it's actually a whole process during the vegative phase, training the plants to grow big colas. I don't want to promote too much stress during the flowering time, but I do trim here and there throughout the entire flowering cycle.

The first two weeks are when the bud sites are created, therefore if you haven't trimmed of the unnecessary popcorn buds by then, it's too late.


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## MrFishy (Nov 12, 2008)

So basically trim away the puniest lower growth as it appears, and tidy up before the pistils pop.
Thanks. Makes sense.


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## smartsoverambition (Nov 12, 2008)

smartsoverambition claims that crackerjax claims that GrowTech claims that your friend is wrong


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## CrackerJax (Nov 12, 2008)

Those are some sweet looking plants. I keep mine in 1 gals and space them far enough apart so sun hits everything. I've never had a plant crowd itself out, so I don't trim. I can see where you might indoors or when grouped tightly together. 


out.


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## The Martian (Nov 12, 2008)

Hi All.

Yeh, I was actually talking about trimming when vegging really, as when flowering the plant has already ndergone the change into maturity and is now intent on producing sexual reproductive organs, instead of "solar panels".
BUT surely, leaves don't TAKE energy, as you put it, they are the plants engine and supply the plant with growing energy, (IE converting solar energy into plant using photosinthesis).
Granted if you remove lower parts later on then the plant will transfer growth to where the plant finds easiest, which will be the allready growing upper plant, as to grow from below again is harder, and is also now much more shaded than when the lower portions originally grew. As is usual in the universe as a whole, things usually take the path of least resistance.
Whaddaya reckon?????
Any other/opposing oppinions???
Ta Ta.


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## alg007 (Nov 12, 2008)

call me paranoid but nobody knows about my grow except here and im legal and u all dont know me


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## MrHowardMarks (Nov 12, 2008)

Yeah, I don't see much use in an outdoor crop, there is no way the sun isn't penetrating all the way to the bottom.

Fdd's scrog looks funny as hell, "apple tree" best description.

I like looking at outdoor plants once in awhile to see how huge they get... (Thinking of the good old days when I grew outdoors)


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## CrackerJax (Nov 12, 2008)

alg007 said:


> call me paranoid but nobody knows about my grow except here and im legal and u all dont know me


Your name is Herman Munster and you live at 1313 Mockingbird lane. Your wife is hot and your son has issues. What else do you want to know? 


out.


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## The Martian (Nov 12, 2008)

alg007 said:


> call me paranoid but nobody knows about my grow except here and im legal and u all dont know me


WHAT???? NO ONE AT ALL. if thats the case you've done seriously well.
I've treid to keep it as quiet as possible, but my girlfriend, and 3 of my mates know, And now I wish it was only two of them, Absolutely the fewer the better, JUST you is best, but imposible for most folk I'd imagine.
I do feel sorry for the younger ones though, I doub't I could have kept it as quiet when I was a youth.

Ha Ha Ha, Nice one.
Tatty Bye.


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## The Martian (Nov 12, 2008)

MrHowardMarks said:


> Yeah, I don't see much use in an outdoor crop, there is no way the sun isn't penetrating all the way to the bottom.
> SNIP (sorry if its bad manners)


Hiya All.
I'm assumimg you meant, "no way it iS penetrating".
It will mostly be dependent on the structure of the plant, as sunlight doesn't tend to fall off with distance the same as artificial lights, due to the fact the sun is so far away. The distance from the lightsource to the top of the plant and the distance from the lightsource to the bottom of the plant could be four five six or more times distant.
Whereas the sun being so far away, is esentially the same distance from top as it is bottom.
Man I wish I could grow outside properly, but our climate is hardly conducive, would certainly save some juice though, and a nice big outdoor number would come in splendidly just before crimbo
See Yawl


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## potpimp (Nov 12, 2008)

fdd2blk said:


> leaves "collect" light, not "block" it.


Perzackly! And FDD should know; he has grown plants nearly 30' tall. It's rumored that he actually built a log cabin out of the stalks of one grow! 

Also, the biggest fan leaves are at the bottom where the plant is wider. Plants are a very intelligent design; we fuckemup all the time by loving them to death.


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## The Martian (Nov 12, 2008)

Hi All.

Just a quicky, I just thought, isn't scrogging and similar techniques a way to maximise yield, for a certain grow area/lampage????
That being the case, outside one isn't constarined by space or Lampage (youve the sun, as much as you like, or get), so why would one need to do this outside.
Most of the plants I've seen grown outside, are fuckin pretty big and don't seem to need any kind of training.
?????
See Ya


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## The Martian (Nov 12, 2008)

potpimp said:


> Perzackly! And FDD should know; he has grown plants nearly 30' tall. It's rumored that he actually built a log cabin out of the stalks of one grow!
> 
> Also, the biggest fan leaves are at the bottom where the plant is wider. Plants are a very intelligent design; we fuckemup all the time by loving them to death.


Hi All.
Yo PotPimp, respect. thats the first time in I don't know how long, that I've seen the "dope gets you through" quote atributed to the Correct "person".
Man I've not read, a Furry freak Bros, or fat freddies cat in fuckin years.
You've just given me a real smile M8.
Plaese Accept a +rep from a still smiling Martian.
Toodle Pip.


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## Iquios (Nov 12, 2008)

Buds don't need light. They don't use it. Smaller buds at the bottom is due to auxin distribution, not light. Glucose moves through the plant freely.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 12, 2008)

lgolos said:


> Buds don't need light. They don't use it. Smaller buds at the bottom is due to auxin distribution, not light. Glucose moves through the plant freely.


 
like this?


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## Iquios (Nov 12, 2008)

fdd2blk said:


> like this?  View attachment 239904 View attachment 239905


Yup. 2nd picture actually looks like the stem has sugar on it.


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