# Religion: why you believe what you believe, and how can you prove it.



## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

title says it all, im just curious how people can look into ancient text and find their purpose in life? especially since most of these books go by life thousands of years ago. most of you also cherry pick the books you live by also, but why only live by some words and not the others? if these people made this book and you completely take their word without any of their proof, doesnt it defeat the purpose when you reject on fallacy but accept another? how do you go about judging what is morally right in the books you live by, when you base your morals on said book? 

also, has anyone ever taken into account, when someone believe they spoke to "god" or some other "higher being", do you ever wonder if this person may have been schizophrenic? possibly even on drugs, or maybe just dreaming? how do you live by the words of something that has no proof, and ignore something that shows evidence of proof like science?


oh and one last thing, for the last question dont answer by saying "faith", elaborate a little bit.


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jun 1, 2012)

I believe the rainbow in a bag of skittles is most likely our savior for this week. Rumor has it, it will be in Cocoa Butter but the end of the month, expect the rapture then. Good Luck. 

oh and 1 question for ya...what brings ya to a cannabis forum to ask religious questions after all? I mean the Stanley Cup playoff's will resume Monday night man, just chill till then, no need to go off the deep end with religious junk filling your head. 

You'll find out sooner or later anyway right? The mind is chaotic enough, full of flames and brimstone in its natural state. For example yourself, you've come to a cannabis forum to probe religious subject matter....crazy


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## Dislexicmidget2021 (Jun 1, 2012)

Whoever has a mind has the ability to delude themselves with what they wish,yet even more scarey, delude others that are with weaker mind,which are far to many in number.People that believe they talk to higher powered beings never left pretend time as kids,yes I would be inclined to think they are schitzo for sure.I use to believe in this stuff as a kid through early teen,but never heard any special voices and never made any invisible friends with omnipotency.I guess some people get so desperate for hope that they will happily delude themselves into faith because it is so easy to rest all of your concerns about truth on an intangible being.It is like hitting the easy button to claim faith as youre reasoning behind the belief,so that the mind may circumvent the effort to ask the important Who,what,where,when and WHY.


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## ControlledEnviorment (Jun 1, 2012)

god lives within, God is what you feel inside.


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jun 1, 2012)

ControlledEnviorment said:


> god lives within, God is what you feel inside.


Sure you just don't have to go poop?


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## cannabineer (Jun 1, 2012)

Oh God. cn ..


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## Geronimo420 (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm an Atheist (no God) Although I have some Goddesses in my garden. I have no problems tolerating other peoples religions and practices as long as their religion or religious authorities don't preach for intolerance. The real problem : Extremist movement are abusing of religions to fill-up empty heads and turn them into terrorist.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

MixedMelodyMindBender said:


> I believe the rainbow in a bag of skittles is most likely our savior for this week. Rumor has it, it will be in Cocoa Butter but the end of the month, expect the rapture then. Good Luck.
> 
> oh and 1 question for ya...what brings ya to a cannabis forum to ask religious questions after all? I mean the Stanley Cup playoff's will resume Monday night man, just chill till then, no need to go off the deep end with religious junk filling your head.
> 
> You'll find out sooner or later anyway right? The mind is chaotic enough, full of flames and brimstone in its natural state. For example yourself, you've come to a cannabis forum to probe religious subject matter....crazy


hahaha just a question man, just wanted to see if anyone could give me a real answer to those questions, maybe enlighten someone whos been traumatized into thinking they're gonna burn in a fire pit in hell if they dont accept someone they never knew, saw, or better yet have proof of. and i know this is a cannabis forum, thats why i come here but they do have a philosophy section so is it so bad that i asked questions? its always good to get opinions from your type of audience too, you can all relate to similar shit, and many of us think the same way. why not ask for an opinion here an there?


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## Heisenberg (Jun 1, 2012)

MixedMelodyMindBender said:


> I believe the rainbow in a bag of skittles is most likely our savior for this week. Rumor has it, it will be in Cocoa Butter but the end of the month, expect the rapture then. Good Luck.
> 
> oh and 1 question for ya...what brings ya to a cannabis forum to ask religious questions after all? I mean the Stanley Cup playoff's will resume Monday night man, just chill till then, no need to go off the deep end with religious junk filling your head.
> 
> You'll find out sooner or later anyway right? The mind is chaotic enough, full of flames and brimstone in its natural state. For example yourself, you've come to a cannabis forum to probe religious subject matter....crazy


There is nothing wrong with seeking the opinions of your peers. What other choice does the OP have, go to a church and ask? Should he call the prayer line? Do cannabis users become unqualified to speak about their own beliefs? These things would be crazy.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

Dislexicmidget2021 said:


> Whoever has a mind has the ability to delude themselves with what they wish,yet even more scarey, delude others that are with weaker mind,which are far to many in number.People that believe they talk to higher powered beings never left pretend time as kids,yes I would be inclined to think they are schitzo for sure.I use to believe in this stuff as a kid through early teen,but never heard any special voices and never made any invisible friends with omnipotency.I guess some people get so desperate for hope that they will happily delude themselves into faith because it is so easy to rest all of your concerns about truth on an intangible being.It is like hitting the easy button to claim faith as youre reasoning behind the belief,so that the mind may circumvent the effort to ask the important Who,what,where,when and WHY.


right? who hears voices, i wouldnt listen to these people, i dont care if they claimed it was a guy named god. anyway you put it, the guys a fuckin schitzo. sad how we have all the technology to prove this shit wrong and people still go about wasting their limited lives concerned about where they will go after it. the worst part is when they spend their whole lives becoming consumed in it, then once theyve found out its a lie they cant do anything else with their lives. faith is all bullshit, thats like saying "i dont have proof so ill blindly believe this", like you said its pretty much an easy button. 

fuck all that shit, pastafarianism makes more sense.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 1, 2012)

I have this bit saved to my RIU notepad because I post it so often...


It's fine to believe something on faith IF you understand what that means. It means you are not allowed to debate your idea, because you can not support it. It means you are not allowed to use your ideas to influence _any_ sort of social or public policy, because you have no justification. You can not expect your faith to have value to _anyone_ but yourself. You have the right to express, explain and celebrate your belief and then sit down and be quiet because your idea amounts to wild speculation. Speculation is not afforded certitude. When the idea of God acquires more support than the idea of leprechauns or the tooth fairy, you might then have something more to say.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

Geronimo420 said:


> I'm an Atheist (no God) Although I have some Goddesses in my garden. I have no problems tolerating other peoples religions and practices as long as their religion or religious authorities don't preach for intolerance. The real problem : Extremist movement are abusing of religions to fill-up empty heads and turn them into terrorist.


its not that i have a problem with religions, but just most of them have a plot, if you would agree. power and recognition, thats what its all about. exceptions would be like buddhism, and most eastern religions that are more like ways of life, and dont follow the guide lines that most do(require you to pray, give 10% of your salary, all that stuff). theism is just flawed in my own opinion, you own one of the most powerful objects in the universe but then praise a being that you cant prove existed, thats my definition of "flicking off" the "god" they thank all the time, by not using something he supposedly blessed you with. the brain is still a mystery, who knows what kinds of abilities we may have, better yet how evolution will take course and better our species. yet a majority of us spend time studying someone who supposedly lives in the sky. i was in an airplane yesterday, cant say i flew threw heaven or anything, but im sure if i told that to catholic priest he'd try to burn me if he could. its just a huge conflict between science and faith, one has proof, the other does not. the right answer is so obvious, but so much of our population follows the road that should be less traveled, this known to be religion.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> I have this bit saved to my RIU notepad because I post it so often...
> 
> 
> It's fine to believe something on faith IF you understand what that means. It means you are not allowed to debate your idea, because you can not support it. It means you are not allowed to use your ideas to influence _any_ sort of social or public policy, because you have no justification. You can not expect your faith to have value to _anyone_ but yourself. You have the right to express, explain and celebrate your belief and then sit down and be quiet because your idea amounts to wild speculation. Speculation is not afforded certitude. When the idea of God acquires more support than the idea of leprechauns or the tooth fairy, you might then have something more to say.


well that just summed up about everything i believe about faith. priests should wear shirts that say "im gonna fill your mind with bullshit, but dont ask for amy evidence". +rep for that one.


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## BackyardBuds (Jun 1, 2012)

The interesting thing about my religious beliefs is this....I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else for that matter. The religion and lifestyle that I live is about compassion for one another, for the planet that we live on, and most importantly ourselves. If it is proof you are looking for, then you have to find it. Read, study, ask the questions you have, find the answers. Science is a good place to start, however, science couldn't explain everything I needed to know. For me it wasn't a matter of "You have to see it, to believe it" it was a matter finding compassion....and I'll be honest...finding compassion doesn't always come easy. Oh, and by the way, not all religions teach that you'll "burn in a pit in hell". Hope this helps in some way.


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jun 1, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> There is nothing wrong with seeking the opinions of your peers. What other choice does the OP have, go to a church and ask? Should he call the prayer line? Do cannabis users become unqualified to speak about their own beliefs? These things would be crazy.


Never said it was wrong m8, just highly not idea place. I mean this place has the attention span of a 8 year old with adhd. Your not gonna get anything of merit or relative to merit. 

Cannabis Users are a wide realm I get that yes. But I would like to think when your sick and you need advice, you go to a Dr. and not the homeless wisemen down the road. But, to each their own. 

Its mostly a poke of fun, if your remove it from context, well then it can be whatever you would like it to be. I mean he asked why I believed in what I believed in and I told him the skittles riddle  Don't take my post to heart. Its comical advice, do what ya will with it  

Again, like I said, I didn't say to not pick and probe the community with religious question. I recommended he chill and hinted that its just not the ideal place to ask such questions. 

Go to church and ask??? Might be an ideal place to start....certainly better than a canna forum. 

I mean if you want to know about a certain dr in life....would u go to a hospital or a graveyard???????? 

Or per say a famous musician....would you go to a landfill or maybe a museum????  Just sayiinnnnnn


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## Geronimo420 (Jun 1, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> its not that i have a problem with religions, but just most of them have a plot, if you would agree. power and recognition, thats what its all about. exceptions would be like buddhism, and most eastern religions that are more like ways of life, and dont follow the guide lines that most do(require you to pray, give 10% of your salary, all that stuff). theism is just flawed in my own opinion, you own one of the most powerful objects in the universe but then praise a being that you cant prove existed, thats my definition of "flicking off" the "god" they thank all the time, by not using something he supposedly blessed you with. the brain is still a mystery, who knows what kinds of abilities we may have, better yet how evolution will take course and better our species. yet a majority of us spend time studying someone who supposedly lives in the sky. i was in an airplane yesterday, cant say i flew threw heaven or anything, but im sure if i told that to catholic priest he'd try to burn me if he could. its just a huge conflict between science and faith, one has proof, the other does not. the right answer is so obvious, but so much of our population follows the road that should be less traveled, this known to be religion.


A person with an absolute faith in it's imaginary friend will refute your scientifically accurate argumentation using faith to deny science evidence just like you would invoke science to deny the accuracy of their belief. A sort of western country Yin-Yang (literally meaning "dark and light" )


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

BackyardBuds said:


> The interesting thing about my religious beliefs is this....I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else for that matter. The religion and lifestyle that I live is about compassion for one another, for the planet that we live on, and most importantly ourselves. If it is proof you are looking for, then you have to find it. Read, study, ask the questions you have, find the answers. Science is a good place to start, however, science couldn't explain everything I needed to know. For me it wasn't a matter of "You have to see it, to believe it" it was a matter finding compassion....and I'll be honest...finding compassion doesn't always come easy. Oh, and by the way, not all religions teach that you'll "burn in a pit in hell". Hope this helps in some way.


saying you have faith is like me saying the cookie monster is the real jesus christ, you know that stuff isnt true but somewhere in your developmental stage someone got into your head. i will only look towards science for knowledge, if i want to get in touch with my spirit ill smoke me a fat bowl of dmt, but thats whole other subject. there cant be a god if there was a holocaust, WWII, or any other genocide/atrocity. but anyone will tell me, when something good happens, "god did it", but when something bad happens, "everything happens for a reason". why did the holocaust happen? was there anything good that came out of that? 

and its obvious not all religions say your gonna burn in a fire pit, in almost every other religion there is some sort of motif to get to an afterlife, and there are also punishments for not doing things. its all the same shit, one religion came from another, that one came from another one, any way you put it. now, continue to tell me you believe in texts that date back thousands of years ago, and them tell me you believe every last thing in that book you live by. if you truly think its right, your interpreting something completely different.


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## Growman3001 (Jun 1, 2012)

At some point a person will make a decision in whether or not to believe in God. If a decision is made to believe in God, they make the mistake in thinking that they need to pick a religion and follow it. A religion that is eventually chosen is based off what the person believes to be "common sense." The scriptures are where people learn of these beliefs. Wherever people learn beliefs now and days, the original source is the scriptures. But did "God" himself write all these different scriptures that contradict each other then toss them to the masses? No. These stories are created by man, passed down generation by generation, thus also being distorted even further by man as its being passed down. This happened till the advent of an actual writing system and printing press system came about. Then the stories or "scriptures" were written and copied. Thus by choosing a religion you choose an alternate government that was also created by man...


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## BigJon (Jun 1, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> title says it all, im just curious how people can look into ancient text and find their purpose in life?


I don&#8217;t think very many people actually find their life purpose in the literature. The literature allows them introspection so they can make their own decision. 




> especially since most of these books go by life thousands of years ago.


This is the problem with the majority of religious people&#8230;not being able to see this fact, that is. There are a lot of people, however, who do understand that many of the things in ancient religious text are the byproduct of the culture those thoughts were cultivated in. I personally always keep that in mind, and I feel it helps me weed out what is important to take out of the text.




> most of you also cherry pick the books you live by also, but why only live by some words and not the others? if these people made this book and you completely take their word without any of their proof, doesnt it defeat the purpose when you reject on fallacy but accept another? how do you go about judging what is morally right in the books you live by, when you base your morals on said book?


I do tend to cherry pick. I am guilty but find nothing wrong with it. Also, I will never reject other philosophies. I will ALWAYS find the common thread between religions. Like I said above, religions are cultivated in many different cultures. Humans all have a decent natural instinct for the &#8220;good and just&#8221; and it is those commonalities that I focus on.

I look at religion like martial arts and cooking.

Who is the best Iron Chef? Chef Marimoto&#8230;seamlessly blending traditional Japanese cuisine with Western flavor and flare.

Who was the best martial artist? Bruce Lee&#8217;s philosophies will always make him the greatest martial artist of all time. He knew that there is a lot of traditional mumbo jumbo that you have to disregard to find the true power in the technique. Kicks from tae kwon do! Punches from boxing! Stick fighting from Escrima! Bruce trained with masters of all martial arts, picking up valuable technique as he went.



> also, has anyone ever taken into account, when someone believe they spoke to "god" or some other "higher being", do you ever wonder if this person may have been schizophrenic? possibly even on drugs, or maybe just dreaming? how do you live by the words of something that has no proof, and ignore something that shows evidence of proof like science?


Here&#8217;s my theory. Let&#8217;s use the old Jewish account of Moses for an example. He spoke to God, right?

Sometimes I feel like God speaks to me, and all of us, through instinct and intuition. Moses lived around 970 bc according to scholars. That&#8217;s a long ass time ago! Let&#8217;s be real. Mankind is stupid so how stupid do you think we were then? People could not even read inside their head as of a thousand years ago.

So Moses was a Jewish nomad. Sure to make plenty of contact with neighboring cultures and picking up useful things along the way. Greek historian Herodotous, just about 300 years after Moses, noted the Assyrian nomads throwing cannabis bushes on hot stones and inhaling the vapors.

Moses spoke to God through a burning bush. But literally? Most people believe that. Not me. I believe he inhaled the vapors of a burning bush, gained deep introspection life, took that as a sign from God (who&#8217;s to say its not?), and claimed that he personally spoke to God.

I don&#8217;t believe in the stories of the bible, but I do believe in Jesus.

I don&#8217;t necessarily believe that Jesus was a magical healer and direct decendant of God. I think he figured out some things, like a shaman. And the Jewish people of the time were so amazed with his ability to wrap up ankles and heal the blind, (Cannabis=glaucaoma meds?) that they called him God. 

I definitely believe the dude was alive. And he treated people awesome. He hung out with thugs and whores but he never judged them and they changed just by hanging with the guy.

I know you don&#8217;t want to hear about faith. Most people can easily say they just have faith in the dude. I can too, BUT I have a reason for it. I see in my daily life how treating people like I want to be treated makes people glow and smile.

I believe that all of us have God juice in us. We just gotta tap into it and just start by being cool!


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## eye exaggerate (Jun 1, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> its not that i have a problem with religions, but just most of them have a plot, if you would agree. power and recognition, thats what its all about. exceptions would be like buddhism, and most eastern religions that are more like ways of life, and dont follow the guide lines that most do(require you to pray, give 10% of your salary, all that stuff). theism is just flawed in my own opinion, you own one of the most powerful objects in the universe but then praise a being that you cant prove existed, thats my definition of "flicking off" the "god" they thank all the time, by not using something he supposedly blessed you with. the brain is still a mystery, who knows what kinds of abilities we may have, better yet how evolution will take course and better our species. yet a majority of us spend time studying someone who supposedly lives in the sky. i was in an airplane yesterday, cant say i flew threw heaven or anything, but im sure if i told that to catholic priest he'd try to burn me if he could. its just a huge conflict between science and faith, one has proof, the other does not. the right answer is so obvious, but so much of our population follows the road that should be less traveled, this known to be religion.


...all religions meet at a point. And with a strong atheist worldview I don't know if you can mix and match  In my opinion it is the people that boast which make for poor attitudes about religion. As a catholic I don't have much appreciation for those particular christians. The thing is, non-christian people of certain descents have the same 'nose in the air' attitude as the christian ones. To me, that is proof of the religion itself being less to blame than the people who peruse its message.


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## madmonk (Jun 1, 2012)

Well-as far as religion goes my parents were both cathalic and native and tried to instill both belief systems into us kids.I do not believe in a higher power per se but rather seek spirituality through martial arts training.I try to treat people as I would want them to treat me-fairly,I hope and with some respect.I have a certain moral compass that I follow and hopefully I am a better person because of this than what I would be without it.


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jun 1, 2012)

Jesus Juice is the Shitnizzz 4 real  But Im highly allergic ....whhhatt ...thats crazy rita, crazy!

"When homeboy turned water into wine I knew I was feked, Im allergic to alcohol, now I die of thirst, thanks Jesus, thought you was my homeboy"---Tenacious D


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

Geronimo420 said:


> A person with an absolute faith in it's imaginary friend will refute your scientifically accurate argumentation using faith to deny science evidence just like you would invoke science to deny the accuracy of their belief. A sort of western country Yin-Yang (literally meaning "dark and light" )


yes, but anyone who believes in morality, dinosaurs, and physics would side with me(unless their brain has been thrown in a washing machine by some fucked up pedophiles called priests). there proof, then theres faith. im gonna go with the one that hasnt been proved wrong yet, numbers and facts will continue to be the only thing that i believe to never lie, however humans will always lie, especially if they're writing a book thats made to find your weakness or lack of hope, and fill that pot hole with religion. religion feeds on those who can make decisions for themselves, those who need a mental crutch, and the ones who can confront it and question it are our only hope to eliminate this plague of lies that has spread across our world. thousands of years ago, yes, it may have made sense to believe all that stuff, but now we have made many discoveries, and many good people sacrificed their life to make them, yet some cannot accept these facts that people worked so hard to prove. its disrespectful, and it almost makes me sick how people can value religion over science, taking blind belief over fact. if god knew the answers, he would have told be to shower regularly, brush your teeth, and plenty of other things essential for life. id like to see someone tell me how far praying has really got them, and if you really try to prove that point to me you are either very stupid, or you have experienced a lot of coincidences.


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## eye exaggerate (Jun 1, 2012)

BigJon said:


> There are a lot of people, however, who do understand that many of the things in ancient religious text are the byproduct of the culture those thoughts were cultivated in.


...yes, for sure. And, there are also 4 main points in the Bible (and other holy books) which will always be the same. A more modern take on that comes from the Myers-Briggs test, as an example. I think that the thoughts of that day shaped (or cladded, really) an undercurrent that has always been there - and will likely always be there.


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## BigJon (Jun 1, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...all religions meet at a point. And with a strong atheist worldview I don't know if you can mix and match  In my opinion it is the people that boast which make for poor attitudes about religion. As a catholic I don't have much appreciation for those particular christians. The thing is, non-christian people of certain descents have the same 'nose in the air' attitude as the christian ones. To me, that is proof of the religion itself being less to blame than the people who peruse its message.


I grew up Catholic and while, I do try my best not to judge, I cannot help but think that if Christian churches focused more on feeling guilty and less about praise, you might have a lot less two faced Christians. My wife grew up Christian, and when we visit those churches, i FEEL GREAT while I'm there but I learned nothing.

I know it sounds crazy but I love the inherent guilt I feel everytime I do something wrong. It prevents me from doing it again.


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## BigJon (Jun 1, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...yes, for sure. And, there are also 4 main points in the Bible (and other holy books) which will always be the same. A more modern take on that comes from the Myers-Briggs test, as an example. I think that the thoughts of that day shaped (or cladded, really) an undercurrent that has always been there - and will likely always be there.


Can you expand on this because i have no idea what you're talking about. But want to!


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

Growman3001 said:


> At some point a person will make a decision in whether or not to believe in God. If a decision is made to believe in God, they make the mistake in thinking that they need to pick a religion and follow it. A religion that is eventually chosen is based off what the person believes to be "common sense." The scriptures are where people learn of these beliefs. Wherever people learn beliefs now and days, the original source is the scriptures. But did "God" himself write all these different scriptures that contradict each other then toss them to the masses? No. These stories are created by man, passed down generation by generation, thus also being distorted even further by man as its being passed down. This happened till the advent of an actual writing system and printing press system came about. Then the stories or "scriptures" were written and copied. Thus by choosing a religion you choose an alternate government that was also created by man...


just another way to call yourself different really, doesnt mean shit. you can just say you believe in a handfull of life lessons, but some people want to categorize themselves and create some sort of diversity, which will 99% of the time lead to conflict when speaking about beliefs.


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## BigJon (Jun 1, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> just another way to call yourself different really, doesnt mean shit. you can just say you believe in a handfull of life lessons, but some people want to categorize themselves and create some sort of diversity, which will 99% of the time lead to conflict when speaking about beliefs.


Its true. People just like being able to identify themselves as something-creating bonds with people who identify themselves as the same thing and also a satisfaction from being different than the rest.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

BigJon said:


> I dont think very many people actually find their life purpose in the literature. The literature allows them introspection so they can make their own decision.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well you dont need religion to tell you to be nice to other, im atheist but ill gladly help out any stranger. and yeah i think the same about jesus, he existed but all that god shit was all made up, but when you try to pass on scriptures for so long they will be changed, and who knows who got a hold of the original bible. but the moses thing and the burning bush made sense to me, that guy probably got high as fuck when a forest fire struck in a weed field or something. lucky bastard.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

BigJon said:


> Its true. People just like being able to identify themselves as something-creating bonds with people who identify themselves as the same thing and also a satisfaction from being different than the rest.


theres plenty of other ways to do so, i dont think religious diversity ever turns out good, i dont wanna use jerusalem as an example for the billionth time but thats the epitome of what i mean.


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## eye exaggerate (Jun 1, 2012)

BigJon said:


> Can you expand on this because i have no idea what you're talking about. But want to!


...lol, it seems to be a theme 

Well, think of a tree or other 'common' objects...think of any thing that is always there for every single person on the planet. Sunrise, sunset...you get it.

There are thoughts in the whole of man as a race - aka collective consciousness. These thoughts are like those 'common' objects. All people will have the same base thoughts, and the rest comes from experiences that make up the person's personality. In the holy books there are allegories that people will understand no matter what year it is.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...all religions meet at a point. And with a strong atheist worldview I don't know if you can mix and match  In my opinion it is the people that boast which make for poor attitudes about religion. As a catholic I don't have much appreciation for those particular christians. The thing is, non-christian people of certain descents have the same 'nose in the air' attitude as the christian ones. To me, that is proof of the religion itself being less to blame than the people who peruse its message.


very true, but a few have some very obvious plots, but some still cant see it. no church gets taxed, yet they want 10% of your salary? doesnt make sense to me, might make sense when your priest pulls up to the church in a ferrari or some shit. 
and exactly, boasting or trying to spread your religion is sick to me. however, religion is man made, and i feel like it was designed to persuade and find peoples weakness, and then attempt to seal whatever weakness with faith, which only makes the problem bigger by relying on someone who doesnt really take action in your life, some may believe this but life moved at the same pace before humans came along, unfortunately the development of our frontal cortex would give us the ability to lie. like i said earlier, humans lie, and if they made a book, dont expect them to not be lies.


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## eye exaggerate (Jun 1, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> and exactly, boasting or trying to spread your religion is sick to me. however, religion is man made, and i feel like it was designed to persuade and find peoples weakness, and then attempt to seal whatever weakness with faith


...you're right, but I feel that religion was made by man because it happens 'in' people first. Let's say 'tangible' religion is an expression of an 'intangible' religion which is the union of right and left hemispheres in the brain. The inner, or intangible religion is perfect. The outward expression of it, however, is less than stellar at times


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## BigJon (Jun 1, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> well you dont need religion to tell you to be nice to other, im atheist but ill gladly help out any stranger.


No offense homie but imo, you're Christian. Maybe even moreso than a lot of the self-righteous ones who scream it at the top of their lungs. Nobody needs a book to be nice, but our world has created humans who are so attached to their ego that they dont often realize how often they put themselves before others.



> and yeah i think the same about jesus, he existed but all that god shit was all made up, but when you try to pass on scriptures for so long they will be changed, and who knows who got a hold of the original bible. but the moses thing and the burning bush made sense to me, that guy probably got high as fuck when a forest fire struck in a weed field or something. lucky bastard.


Unless you understand and read old time greek, one may not fully understand the book of John

Unless you understand and read ancient hebrew, one may not fully understand the old testament/torah. 

etc etc...

Religion is just a big game of telelphone. But I like to read. and I like to ponder on the spiritual so I read as much as I can get my hands on so I can put it together for myself. Some people dont need to but I personally need emotions to be put into words and ideas that I feel but never verbalized often come to light through the reading of old texts.


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## BigJon (Jun 1, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> theres plenty of other ways to do so, i dont think religious diversity ever turns out good, i dont wanna use jerusalem as an example for the billionth time but thats the epitome of what i mean.


Its not diversity in religion that's bad, it's people focusing on the differences and labeling those differences as bad because they dont understand it. 

But with understanding comes enlightenment. This is why I like to know my friend's past, histories, back grounds, family life, etc. So that when they say really ignorant shit, I can look past it and chuckle at it.


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## Growman3001 (Jun 1, 2012)

Religion is just the original form of government...
What religions and governments do best is cause war...

I wanted to be apart of a group so I joined rollitup.org...


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## Growman3001 (Jun 1, 2012)

You want to believe in God, go ahead...
That dont mean pick a religion though...


Do what makes sense to you, not what others tell you is right...


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## eye exaggerate (Jun 1, 2012)

BigJon said:


> Its not diversity in religion that's bad, it's people focusing on the differences and labeling those differences as bad because they dont understand it.


...yep  And, the 'best' part, we ALL do it. Seems to be the 'job' of man to rise above 'being above' other people.


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## Growman3001 (Jun 1, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> just another way to call yourself different really, doesnt mean shit. you can just say you believe in a handfull of life lessons, but some people want to categorize themselves and create some sort of diversity, which will 99% of the time lead to conflict when speaking about beliefs.


I highly doubt people pick a religion based on how they can be different...


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## esc420211 (Jun 1, 2012)

God is like a lion you don't have to defend his word.


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## BigJon (Jun 1, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...yep  And, the 'best' part, we ALL do it. Seems to be the 'job' of man to rise above 'being above' other people.


And that's where the catholic guilt comes in!

When I say to myself that I think Christians need to do more guilt and less praise, at the same time I'm sitting here feeling guilty for even having the thought.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

BigJon said:


> No offense homie but imo, you're Christian. Maybe even moreso than a lot of the self-righteous ones who scream it at the top of their lungs. Nobody needs a book to be nice, but our world has created humans who are so attached to their ego that they dont often realize how often they put themselves before others.


idk about that, i dont like to categorize myself, but id just say i know how it feels to be have problems and anyone with common morality should know that helping our species as herd is nothing but beneficial(depending on how you help someone of course). i think being christian constitutes one to believe in a higher being and deny many common facts, im simply not that type of person. i dont exactly put myself before others, but if im not too busy i will be glad to lend a hand.



BigJon said:


> Unless you understand and read old time greek, one may not fully understand the book of John
> 
> Unless you understand and read ancient hebrew, one may not fully understand the old testament/torah.
> 
> ...


all you really have to know is the religion all of it came from really, hinduism is the base religion and many follow. once youve read whatever propaganda hinduism is, youll probably realize your religion is a knock off, its like drinking pepsi, then drinking coke. you notice their similarities, but theres just a different tag on the front. any knowledge is good though, always read and continue to use your brain as your "god" wanted you to, dont waste it asking for forgiveness and thanking someone for supposedly dying on a cross for your "predetermined sins". people have died worse deaths i believe, for many good causes, but i dont go to an establishment to praise him/her on sundays, or write a book about said person and how they were so inherently good they could only be related to god. i hope you have as much fun putting together the puzzle that is "the right religion", doubt there is or ever will be one(besides pastafarianism of course!).


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

BigJon said:


> Its not diversity in religion that's bad, it's people focusing on the differences and labeling those differences as bad because they dont understand it.
> 
> But with understanding comes enlightenment. This is why I like to know my friend's past, histories, back grounds, family life, etc. So that when they say really ignorant shit, I can look past it and chuckle at it.


some religions seem to emphasize shunning a non believer though, this i know to be true. i know people can interpret things differently, but i think it takes a lot to push someone to homicide, and maybe even suicide to kill any non believers, a prime example of how religion diversity could cause problems, and how religion is basically mind control.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

Growman3001 said:


> I highly doubt people pick a religion based on how they can be different...


not what i said, although i guarantee some people who love attention have done so for this reason. all religions originated from another, saying your one of them is just another way to make yourself diverse, im not saying this is their goal but i feel like whoever created these knockoff religions probably wanted to be different from the one they copied, and loosely base all the stories from the original book, and maybe change some names or places here and there. but still, they're basically all the same, its like one person wearing multiple masks.


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## Growman3001 (Jun 1, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> not what i said, although i guarantee some people who love attention have done so for this reason. all religions originated from another, saying your one of them is just another way to make yourself diverse, im not saying this is their goal but i feel like whoever created these knockoff religions probably wanted to be different from the one they copied, and loosely base all the stories from the original book, and maybe change some names or places here and there. but still, they're basically all the same, its like one person wearing multiple masks.


Well of course you have your minority...

Tom Cruize
Madonna

Most people choose a religion because they actually believe what is being feed to them...

"knockoff religions" are created by members of an earlier religion that no longer believed everything the original religion told them. So they edit the religion to better suit their beliefs and then call it their own...

If that is what you mean, then I agree with you...


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## Heisenberg (Jun 1, 2012)

The lack of mind control is actually the problem in virtually all cases. Lack of mental discipline. The heart of all these issues is the willingness to surrender the mind to ideas with no support. Accepting answers to questions which have none, and pretending they must be right. In most cases, the problem can be distilled down to the inability or unwillingness to think. It's that simple. Not to say a thinking man must be atheist, but if a person is truly conscientious there is rarely a problem no matter their beliefs.


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## eye exaggerate (Jun 1, 2012)

BigJon said:


> And that's where the catholic guilt comes in!
> 
> When I say to myself that I think Christians need to do more guilt and less praise, at the same time I'm sitting here feeling guilty for even having the thought.


...good for you! Well done!


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## Growman3001 (Jun 1, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> *just another way to call yourself different really*, doesnt mean shit. you can just say you believe in a handfull of life lessons, *but some people want to categorize themselves and create some sort of diversity*, which will 99% of the time lead to conflict when speaking about beliefs.


this is a quote....


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## eye exaggerate (Jun 1, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Not to say a thinking man must be atheist, but if a person is truly conscientious there is rarely a problem no matter their beliefs.


...well said. That pretty much sums it up - put your brain to good use and don't be a dck.


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## BigJon (Jun 1, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> some religions seem to emphasize shunning a non believer though, this i know to be true. i know people can interpret things differently, but i think it takes a lot to push someone to homicide, and maybe even suicide to kill any non believers, a prime example of how religion diversity could cause problems, and how religion is basically mind control.


Which is why I think people need to have their own thoughts.

But thinking outside the box doesn't mean you can't revere and honor the box.


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## Geronimo420 (Jun 1, 2012)

Growman3001 said:


> Religion is just the original form of government...
> What religions and governments do best is cause war...
> 
> I wanted to be apart of a group so I joined rollitup.org...


I think it may actually be the first form of law instead. It was invented by the first government ( a Barbarian chief most likely ) as a way to kept control over a group of non-educated barbarian.


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## Geronimo420 (Jun 1, 2012)

Growman3001 said:


> You want to believe in God, go ahead...
> That dont mean pick a religion though...
> 
> 
> Do what makes sense to you, not what others tell you is right...


Agree a person should follow it's own belief


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## Geronimo420 (Jun 1, 2012)

esc420211 said:


> God is like a lion you don't have to defend his word.


A work mate as a bumper sticker that read : SO MANY CHRISTIANs, SO FEW LIONS


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## BigJon (Jun 1, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> well you dont need religion to tell you to be nice to other


Of course not. I've seen dogs save kittens from a swimming pool before. 

You do not need religion to tell you to be nice, but reading knowledge from 100 generations ago and from several continents helps me feel connected to our ancestors helps me live a frame of mind where I view myself as one with the you, God, and the Universe.


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jun 1, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> The lack of mind control is actually the problem in virtually all cases. Lack of mental discipline. The heart of all these issues is the willingness to surrender the mind to ideas with no support. Accepting answers to questions which have none, and pretending they must be right. In most cases, the problem can be distilled down to the inability or unwillingness to think. It's that simple. Not to say a thinking man must be atheist, but if a person is truly conscientious there is rarely a problem no matter their beliefs.


" All humans are born with a brain, but its another to find a man that can use them, and use them well"--George Orwell's 1984
"Nothing is greater to a Government than a citizenry of sheep"--Adolf Hitler 


Truer words are rarely spoken Heins. Makes me think of the infamous proverb of " Lifes a tragedy to those whom feel, and a utter comedy to those whom think".


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jun 1, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> some religions seem to emphasize shunning a non believer though, this i know to be true. i know people can interpret things differently, but i think it takes a lot to push someone to homicide, and maybe even suicide to kill any non believers, a prime example of how religion diversity could cause problems, and how religion is basically mind control.


Oddly enough while at the dentist last week I was reading an article about the Amish in a magazine. Unbeknownst to myself but the Amish have the largest rate of suicide outside of Islam. Which kinda makes sense to me, as I have seen just how horrific they can be to a non-believer or someone who is "exiled". shunning, especially in the Amish community, can be the blame to such a high suicide rate. If I remember correctly the average age was like 18 or right around the time of Amish "courting" or dating period where they have the option of leaving the cult.


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## BigJon (Jun 1, 2012)

Geronimo420 said:


> A work mate as a bumper sticker that read : SO MANY CHRISTIANs, SO FEW LIONS


I like that. People revere Heysoos so much, that nobody even wants to attempt to live their life like he did. Although, he told us that WE can do anything HE could!


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## Geronimo420 (Jun 1, 2012)

MixedMelodyMindBender said:


> " All humans are born with a brain, but its another to find a man that can use them, and use them well"--George Orwell's 1984
> "Nothing is greater to a Government than a citizenry of sheep"--Adolf Hitler
> 
> 
> Truer words are rarely spoken Heins. Makes me think of the infamous proverb of " Lifes a tragedy to those whom feel, and a utter comedy to those whom think".


Hitler's best Quote : The great masses of the people&#8230;will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one. is regime was base on it.


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jun 1, 2012)

The paradox is that 21st Century America is perfectly alike Nazi Germany of yesterday. For whatever the reason may be, we forget history, the fastest. 

If you take a good hard look at America today, your a fool to think we have not relic the liking of Hitler's "fatherland" ( sound familiar....."homeland"). Whatever the interest of our "homeland" shall it be, law. No where in that, will any human, find freedom. ANd if you think you have, your hallucinating. Its a illusion. 

The only thing I think America and its citizenry has on its side, is a very notable history, of being Non-Conformist. Our Government has sadly not learned that the people WILL NEVER bend to the Government. And we will take arms against anything that stands in the way of our self proclaimed Imperial Destiny. Even if its our own Government. Which I think we need more now than ever before.

From time to time, the spirit ( or Zeitgeist) of Liberty will need to be refreshed from time to time with blood and treasure , and even against it's own government--Thomas Jefferson


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## Geronimo420 (Jun 1, 2012)

MixedMelodyMindBender said:


> The paradox is that 21st Century America is perfectly alike Nazi Germany of yesterday. For whatever the reason may be, we forget history, the fastest.
> 
> If you take a good hard look at America today, your a fool to think we have not relic the liking of Hitler's "fatherland" ( sound familiar....."homeland"). Whatever the interest of our "homeland" shall it be, law. No where in that, will any human, find freedom. ANd if you think you have, your hallucinating. Its a illusion.
> 
> ...


This probably the only thing that kept America from really becoming Nazi under G.W.BUSH


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## tyler.durden (Jun 1, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...all religions meet at a point. And with a strong atheist worldview I don't know if you can mix and match  In my opinion it is the people that boast which make for poor attitudes about religion. As a catholic I don't have much appreciation for those particular christians. The thing is, non-christian people of certain descents have the same 'nose in the air' attitude as the christian ones. To me, that is proof of the religion itself being less to blame than the people who peruse its message.





eye exaggerate said:


> ...yes, for sure. And, there are also 4 main points in the Bible (and other holy books) which will always be the same. A more modern take on that comes from the Myers-Briggs test, as an example. I think that the thoughts of that day shaped (or cladded, really) an undercurrent that has always been there - and will likely always be there.





eye exaggerate said:


> ...lol, it seems to be a theme
> 
> Well, think of a tree or other 'common' objects...think of any thing that is always there for every single person on the planet. Sunrise, sunset...you get it.
> 
> There are thoughts in the whole of man as a race - aka collective consciousness. These thoughts are like those 'common' objects. All people will have the same base thoughts, and the rest comes from experiences that make up the person's personality. In the holy books there are allegories that people will understand no matter what year it is.


Hey, Eye! This is exciting, I can actually understand what you wrote! Very down to Earth language. Is this a new trend, or did you miss your meds this morning?


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## drive (Jun 1, 2012)

Why I believe what I believe and can you prove it. I believe that there is a GOD but it is nothing like the bible explains. GOD is not an appeaser. GOD does not grant wishes. GOD does not care if you believe or not. I know this because one of GODs represenatives told me


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Jun 1, 2012)

drive said:


> Why I believe what I believe and can you prove it. I believe that there is a GOD but it is nothing like the bible explains. GOD is not an appeaser. GOD does not grant wishes. GOD does not care if you believe or not. I know this because one of GODs represenatives told me


I too know a representative of god, hes quite a trip. Are you talking about a shaman?


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## drive (Jun 1, 2012)

Mine has come to me in my mind. though he has friends in nature


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## madmonk (Jun 1, 2012)

I believe very firmly that organised religion is the singular most dangerous threat to mankinds freedom-having said that I really dont care what you belive as long as you do not attempt to convert me or base a government upon your chosen creed.At which piont I will add-"I may not agree with what you say-but I will defend to the death your right to say it.(I will add a caveat here)As long as your comments cause no harm to be done to another!"People-we are all looking for the great answer-well most of us-for some its the choice not to believe while others dedicate there lives to a chosen diety or path.I dropped the great god out of my life and chose my path many years ago.I choose to live..my way.But-I will add this-I may not believe inb God per se-but I do believe there is absolute good and there is absolute evil and in many cases we make the chioce becuase I believe we are all born with the inherite knowledge of what right or wrong.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

Growman3001 said:


> Well of course you have your minority...
> 
> Tom Cruize
> Madonna
> ...


that was a better way to say, on point as well. +rep.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> The lack of mind control is actually the problem in virtually all cases. Lack of mental discipline. The heart of all these issues is the willingness to surrender the mind to ideas with no support. Accepting answers to questions which have none, and pretending they must be right. In most cases, the problem can be distilled down to the inability or unwillingness to think. It's that simple. Not to say a thinking man must be atheist, but if a person is truly conscientious there is rarely a problem no matter their beliefs.


i mean mind control as in they're controlling their minds, but you make an excellent point there. those who accept things without proof lack the mental discipline, i will only believe in things that truly exist, if theres no real evidence of it then i believe theres no fact to be drawn from it. i think you should be your own priest, dont let someone tell you things they cannot prove and simply take their word because a majority of people do. its tragic that this mental weakness still exists in the 21st century, im sure many philosophers from the past would have extpected us to abolish religion by now, if you look in hind sight nothing good comes of it(yes, they do donate and stuff but that money is given to them, they pocket lots of it too im sure). even china doesnt allow christianity, they know its a scam and confronted it before it took control of their nation, and leeched off of their economy like it does ours. some people cannot see through religion like others can, its like telling a guy he has an ugly girlfriend, but denies it because he's so used to her, yes beauty is opinionated but you see my point. you cant drive a mile in america without seeing a church, especially down south. hospitals and schools should replace all churches, thats all wasted space if you ask me. churches never taught anyone anything, if anything it makes you less intelligent if you listen to the things that the bible tells you. after all, dinosaurs never existed and the world 2000 years old right? and carbon dating is all the work of the devil. i think its hysterical how some people can blindly believe this shit and not question it one bit, its the same reason people listened to hitler, fear. thats all it is.(not meaning to take MixedMelodyMindBender's example, just a coincidence)

btw, its a sad day on riu. 

*

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Heisenberg again.







*


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

drive said:


> Mine has come to me in my mind. though he has friends in nature


lay off the acid buddy.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

BigJon said:


> Of course not. I've seen dogs save kittens from a swimming pool before.
> 
> You do not need religion to tell you to be nice, but reading knowledge from 100 generations ago and from several continents helps me feel connected to our ancestors helps me live a frame of mind where I view myself as one with the you, God, and the Universe.


that sounds like a picture on a calendar or something, amazing how even animals have sympathy. or maybe he was hungry...? 
and i fully support your view, i would say read as much as you can and learn from everything you come across, but take everything into account before believing. we are all connected, i dont know much about string theory but i do believe our minds have some sort of connection, like the 6th sense of someone watching you. theres no scientific proof for that, but maybe one day we will figure out why, maybe we put off certain smells or some sort of telepathic wave that travels from brain to brain. like i was saying earlier, the mind is the most amazing thing in the world yet people decide to not use it. who knows what lies in the depths of your mind, its all mystery to me. id say the most interesting thing would be the pinneal gland, but theres so much more to know about how our mind functions. exercise that muscle we call our brain, it will pay off one day. any knowledge is beneficial, a wider view is always better.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

BigJon said:


> Which is why I think people need to have their own thoughts.
> 
> But thinking outside the box doesn't mean you can't revere and honor the box.


my point exactly, hold what you believe to yourself, dont put it upon other either. there is good things in this hypothetical box, but i believe you should try to interpret the verses in as many ways as possible, whatever one seems morally justified would be better, so you do require outside beliefs if you truly want to use religion the way it was made to be used; to keep people in line, morality wise.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

MixedMelodyMindBender said:


> Oddly enough while at the dentist last week I was reading an article about the Amish in a magazine. Unbeknownst to myself but the Amish have the largest rate of suicide outside of Islam. Which kinda makes sense to me, as I have seen just how horrific they can be to a non-believer or someone who is "exiled". shunning, especially in the Amish community, can be the blame to such a high suicide rate. If I remember correctly the average age was like 18 or right around the time of Amish "courting" or dating period where they have the option of leaving the cult.


thats they type of mind control that religion, taken to an extreme.


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## cannabineer (Jun 1, 2012)

MixedMelodyMindBender said:


> Oddly enough while at the dentist last week I was reading an article about the Amish in a magazine. Unbeknownst to myself but the Amish have the largest rate of suicide outside of Islam. Which kinda makes sense to me, as I have seen just how horrific they can be to a non-believer or someone who is "exiled". shunning, especially in the Amish community, can be the blame to such a high suicide rate. If I remember correctly the average age was like 18 or right around the time of Amish "courting" or dating period where they have the option of leaving the cult.


Wonder how many of them chose electrocution ... cn


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Wonder how many of them chose electrocution ... cn


hahaha thats not a very amish way to go.


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## mindphuk (Jun 1, 2012)

MixedMelodyMindBender said:


> Never said it was wrong m8, just highly not idea place. I mean this place has the attention span of a 8 year old with adhd. Your not gonna get anything of merit or relative to merit.
> 
> Cannabis Users are a wide realm I get that yes. But I would like to think when your sick and you need advice, you go to a Dr. and not the homeless wisemen down the road. But, to each their own.
> 
> ...


I have often asked this question of those that claim evolution has no basis in reality. After trying to explain to them how they are misunderstanding evolution, they will often link or post information they pulled from some ID or creationist website to support their POV. 
I ask, if I want to know about Jesus, should I ask a scientist? If not, why do you go to a fundamentalist Christian to learn about evolution? I usually don't get any responses.


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## eye exaggerate (Jun 1, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Hey, Eye! This is exciting, I can actually understand what you wrote! Very down to Earth language. Is this a new trend, or did you miss your meds this morning?


...one word - headband 

* random picture from the internet


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## crazyhazey (Jun 1, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> I have often asked this question of those that claim evolution has no basis in reality. After trying to explain to them how they are misunderstanding evolution, they will often link or post information they pulled from some ID or creationist website to support their POV.
> I ask, if I want to know about Jesus, should I ask a scientist? If not, why do you go to a fundamentalist Christian to learn about evolution? I usually don't get any responses.


i would speak to someone who doesnt let something like religion get in the way of their view of natural selection, or over time what we call evolution. its happening as we speak, theyve recently found an electric catfish in the congo river, so fuck whoever says thats blasphemy because thats solid evidence. it happens when a species faces extinction, the force known as natural selection takes place when numbers get small, its almost as if nature is directly connected to everything around it. darwin proved it with the evolving shape of a birds beak, to get food it needed a longer beak to be able to reach into tree trunks and feed. theres not much explanation for it, but this is where id expect someone to say "god did it!", but instead they deny another fact about the way life goes. congrats to anyone who can believe their bullshit.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 2, 2012)

MixedMelodyMindBender said:


> Never said it was wrong m8, just highly not idea place. I mean this place has the attention span of a 8 year old with adhd. Your not gonna get anything of merit or relative to merit.
> 
> Cannabis Users are a wide realm I get that yes. But I would like to think when your sick and you need advice, you go to a Dr. and not the homeless wisemen down the road. But, to each their own.
> 
> ...


Perhaps if someone wanted to write a paper on the subject, cannabis forums wouldn't be the best place, but for a cannabis user who is trying to satisfy idle curiosity and express frustration, I think this place has a lot to offer. We are talking about a very common belief that is shared by most of our peers and ancestors, and also a very common subject that intrigues people when they are stoned. I myself have learned more about religion here than anywhere else or any other time in my life, and a good deal of what I have learned has come from people who believe differently than I do. Even though most of the information is located on other sites, it is the conversations here which drove me to learn. I happen to be quite proud of the little community we have in this sub-forum, and feel we have some valuable insight to share. I personally welcome questions on subjects like these and do not discount responses simply because the person likely uses cannabis. I realize you are trying to be light hearted and I of course have no problem with your conduct, just the sentiment that someone should feel silly for asking this question here, or not expect to get thoughtful answers. Many of us here are honestly trying to communicate and put effort into our replies.

Sending someone curious about the mechanics of religion to a church to ask the worshipers why they believe is a bit like going to an asylum and asking the patients why they are crazy.


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## Geronimo420 (Jun 2, 2012)

drive said:


> Why I believe what I believe and can you prove it. I believe that there is a GOD but it is nothing like the bible explains. GOD is not an appeaser. GOD does not grant wishes. GOD does not care if you believe or not. I know this because one of GODs represenatives told me


If he looked like this guy it was your imagination


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## crazyhazey (Jun 2, 2012)

Geronimo420 said:


> If he looked like this guy it was your imagination
> View attachment 2195479


any picture you put up to represent "GOD" is part of your imagination, everyone sees a different one due to culture although, flying spaghetti monster seems the most realistic, but thats my opinion of course hahaha.


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## Dr.J20 (Jun 2, 2012)

crazyhazy, while you make some points in your op that are indisputable empirically, i think they're are some flaws in logic.

while there are many people who claim to "know" what God wants us to do based on reading what are some very old texts, indeed, this does not mean that those books were necessarily written for that purpose. Nor is it of any value (for argument's sake) that these religious texts are very old. 

In my opinion, the purpose of the religious text is to provide a space for spiritual meditation or the contemplative pose. By and large, the world's religions preach similar primary messages: Love each other, take care of each other, and be happy. Many eastern religions focus this through the lens of divesting yourself of desire which, in western terms, means getting away from materialism. If one reads these texts--the vedas, the upanishads, the mahabarata, the bhagvad-gita, the bible (in all its incarnations), the tora and talmud, the koran, the writings of great religious leaders and philosophers--it can offer great instruction on how to approach, how to formulate and maintain, an existence in which love, peace, justice, and happiness are maximal. 

I agree that many institutionalizations of these messages have fallen to the corruption which always becomes possible when power structures are invested in those institutions. what this means, i think, in short response to your op, is that the problem is not with the religion itself, but with the churches, mosques, temples, etc.

I think there is an instructive Buddhist vis-a-vis Hindu principle that you will find enlightening and agreeable: Do not believe anything that does not make sense to you. or, contrariwise, believe only that which makes sense to you.

NOW, the whole bit of searching for proof in all this, well, you will never find that. there is no proof. that is why these become matters of faith and debate. We can sit on and argue endlessly about the merits of rationale, emotion, spirituality; we can go back and forth on moral conundra forever; we can approach philosophical questions from diverse vantage points and still resolve nothing. Thats, in my suspicion, part of the fun of being a human being. God, or whatever you want to call the primordial force of the universe, had a pretty good sense of humor when he started the evolution of man on earth: now there's a whole big faction of our species that does nothing but sit around and argue about what our purpose in existence is when it has never changed: be happy.

my two cents

be easy


--------EDIT------
above I say "what God wants us to do"... I think, upon reflecting, God doesn't "want" us to do anything, as God doesn't want. So, it is better to formulate the discussion through the language of our purpose. I believe that was a clear point covered above: our purpose is to be happy. The hard part is figuring out the "how" of that "being happy," because it is subjective--specialized, if you'd like to euphemize--


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## crazyhazey (Jun 2, 2012)

Dr.J20 said:


> crazyhazy, while you make some points in your op that are indisputable empirically, i think they're are some flaws in logic.
> 
> while there are many people who claim to "know" what God wants us to do based on reading what are some very old texts, indeed, this does not mean that those books were necessarily written for that purpose. Nor is it of any value (for argument's sake) that these religious texts are very old.
> 
> ...


im glad you can look at religion from a moral stand point, but by cherry picking these books and through different interpretations, its as if theres no right way to be a religion, so if you cherry pick a religion, are you truly that? i mean, if you completely follow a book this means you follow every last bit of it. i do have a problem with the institutions these churches put up, and by the scamming and corruption that takes place, i just wish people didnt look at it blindly and think about 10% of their salary going towards "a good cause", which is probably the priests wallet. not to mention, they preach how men are sinners, yet how is someone to judge whos a sinner if they are human. and ironically, these priests end up committing some sick things, i dont even have to mention what priests do, doesnt that mean anything? if you ask me thats just proof that making someone the leader of "judging" whos a sinner will only drive these people to be the thing he preaches against everyday. yes, religions may hold some knowledge about the spirit and all that, but much of the flawed info was never corrected, some still disregard science, thats the problem. i do agree with the idea that you shouldnt accept anything you dont believe, but much of the things in these books are just common sense. these lessons can be taught to you without having to search through opinionated texts, many of which go against the very laws of nature(evolution especially). and imagine how far ahead we would be without religious restriction on stem cell research, or abortion. dont get me wrong, abortion is a horrible thing, but is it better to raise a foster child who may have mental/physical health problems from not being properly reared by parents? if those who cant support a child want to get an abortion, the government has no right to step in and tell women what to do with something that is being created inside your body. not to mention fetuses and umbilical cords could be used to repair almost any tissue, im talking blind people being able to see again, paraplegics could possibly make some sort of recovery too with stem cells, yet we stand by and throw away these valuable cells since its blasphemy, but would "god" rather have sick people live again at the cost of a few stem cells, or save a baby that may never have a proper childhood. religion holds too much power, it shouldnt interfere with government matters, or better yet private matter like what a woman wants to do with her womb. 

i will admit, you may find a good piece of advice, but really, why couldnt you just go out into the world and learn these things first hand, or better yet look at a book from this century? we've advanced as a species, we're much smarter than we were all those years ago. it sounds stupid, but the only way christians would get my support would be a new new testament, one that would actually prove useful during our age, and maybe no(or less) lies this time, and they should also pay taxes since their property could be supporting our government, rather they take the loop hole and pocket whatever they're not spending on "church missions" or "donations". saying your a religion restricts you from believe outside knowledge if you truly only believe that book, and lets get this straight, all those books dont teach all the lessons to life. they should be learned hands on, with an open mind, or possibly found in a book that is non-fiction. 

and yeah, we can always debate faith, until those who say they have faith(remember, jesus said nobody truly has faith, if anyone had a grain of faith it could "move a mountain", christians even accept this, idk how they interpret it but i dont think they're taking it how they should) finally admit that they just dont want to do research and find the facts of life, theyd rather sit in a corner, read their fairy tales, and hope to get all the answer you would get by actually reading something useful or getting out into the world. also, another huge problem i have with religion is the idea of prayer, give me a fuckin break thats blatant laziness and we all know it, if you wanna go help someone go do it you lazy religious fatasses. and stop thanking god for the food at your table, if your "god" was providing the food everyone in the world should be eating. 

if there is truly a god, which i dont believe(but i do believe our galaxy does have some complex secrets to it, the recent discoveries with orions belt have blown my mind), he certainly does have a sense of humor. he can just sit back while people kill each other over which "form" of him they believe, they cant just side their argument and accept their religion is just another knockoff. most of it originated from hinduism, im sure an educated person such as yourself notices the similarities in all these books, its just different names and slightly different stories.


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## Dr.J20 (Jun 2, 2012)

Alright, I'm sure you consider yourself very educated, correct? It sounds as though you have some educational background, and you offer many of the stock arguments: "How could God really be there? all these people killing in his name? and he does nothing?" 
Yet, earlier in your post you clearly identify that priests (human beings) contort and pervert what good there is in their "religion." Now there's some troubling conflation taking place throughout where Catholicism and Christians are being generalized. This is problematic. As is presuming that a religion is the same thing as a religious text. Where in the bible does a hierarchy every get expilcitly established for the catholic church? (i'm sticking with christianity from here on out, since this seems to be where your bone to pick with God originates). 

What's confusing is that you use the fact that man is corruptible as proof that God doesn't exist? Perhaps all of this killing and hatred comes from man's hatred and fear of change, his troubling egoism, and a latent fear of the Other (call it a metaphysical xenophobia).

What merit is there in stepping in and saving people over and over? They never learn when you do that. We are very frail and insecure species at this point in our history. These religious texts all hit upon the fact that by divesting ourselves of judgment, desires, seeking personal power, we can cultivate a happy, free, peaceful existence. God is a human word for a force that started it all. You can go back in time and history to a point before earth even existed, but you can't pre-date existence itself. So when you remove time all that you have left is cosmic energy that has always existed and will always exist: that's God.

Now, to move on to the statement that you can just learn from living: this is true but only true because books provide a way for knowledge to be passed on indefinitely: we need all kinds of books, including ones which discuss our metaphysical nature(s), if only for fodder to contemplate and argue against. You see, you have articulations with these religions you reject: how could you reject them without their existence and knowing something of them? 

I do believe there is a sense of arrogance in someone who thinks that God sees killing the same way we do, and so supposes God doesn't exist. God is inevitably of stronger spirit and will than you, He also sees a much bigger picture than you do, and who knows, maybe all the innocent slaughtered are rewarded once their state of existence changes/passes through life? Your presumption is grand but as contradictory as the religions you lambast. It seems like you say science will reveal all of the facts of existence, essentially demystifying reality, but ask any real scientist and you'll find that the ultimate limits of science provoke some of the greatest leaps of faith.

I agree there are a lot of people who don't know and don't care to know about themselves and what they believe. Your grievance about cherry picking, however, is a little epistemologically puerile. Do you really suppose that a God who created a world which only thrives through adaptability and diversity really expects there to be only ONE right answer to how to live your life? Again, religions are, IDEALLY, for the purpose of providing a guide for achieving that peaceful happy existence. The problem is when man becomes extremely power crazed and fearful--in that metaphysically xenophobic way--and starts repressing logically harmless, amoral activity (AMORAL NOT IMMORAL). 

In short, following the spirit of a religion is not cherry picking and does not invalidate anything. A religion is a group of people who declare that they share a set of beliefs which will offer the best, most peaceful, happiest life to everyone. to some extent even atheism is a religion.

be easy


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## Dr.J20 (Jun 2, 2012)

Also, it seems as though you're misinterpreting some of my writing...churches themselves are institutions, not the charities they set up...which are also institutional in nature but somewhat more of an organized bureaucracy...

i doubt i'm gonna convince you of anything, i'm not trying to argue and i'm honestly too baked to do this right now..i just reread what i posted and its not even worth trying to go back and edit...

if you believe there are some kind of cosmic mysteries you believe in some form of a metaphysical "god" figure and therefore are arguing semantically---you just don't like the word God

and i take extreme umbrage at the notion fiction has nothing to teach: what about poetry, drama, painting, sculpture, architecture, gardening, indeed any aesthetic communique, or anything aesthetically crafted whatsoever? can't learn anything from them either? 
i mean the idea that only non-fiction books are of any epistemological value is just asinine.
be easy


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## crazyhazey (Jun 2, 2012)

Dr.J20 said:


> Alright, I'm sure you consider yourself very educated, correct? It sounds as though you have some educational background, and you offer many of the stock arguments: "How could God really be there? all these people killing in his name? and he does nothing?"
> Yet, earlier in your post you clearly identify that priests (human beings) contort and pervert what good there is in their "religion." Now there's some troubling conflation taking place throughout where Catholicism and Christians are being generalized. This is problematic. As is presuming that a religion is the same thing as a religious text. Where in the bible does a hierarchy every get expilcitly established for the catholic church? (i'm sticking with christianity from here on out, since this seems to be where your bone to pick with God originates).
> 
> What's confusing is that you use the fact that man is corruptible as proof that God doesn't exist? Perhaps all of this killing and hatred comes from man's hatred and fear of change, his troubling egoism, and a latent fear of the Other (call it a metaphysical xenophobia).
> ...


im somewhat of a humble person, so i dont consider myself to be really anything, im just a human making observations. its not that im mad with christians/catholics either, just the ignorance of most religious people and how they let their beliefs effect the world we live in. our government is strongly christian/catholic also, im sorry if i use them as examples but they are the epitome of a flawed religion. and im not exactly saying god doesnt exist due to human atrocities, but think about this... if he "created" us, then he knows this is going to happen, he knows we are going to suffer, argue about his existance, and kill each other for not believing. he realizes we are all going to suffer due to some peoples need to be reliant on something, religion usually acts as a crutch for most, or out of fear they join. and i dont read much of the bible but i dont know if hierarchy of the church was ever discussed, better yet i dont think jesus would have wanted a church, he didnt want people to wear crosses either but people do this all the time. (sorry if some of this seems a bit unorganized, im really tired and im probably going to bed after this post, so dont take everything i say here into account until i can justify it tomorrow when im not half asleep.)

im not saying that god doesnt exist because man is corrupt, but rather because he stands by while his "children" kill one another over nothing, i agree that the atrocities committed by man are cause by fear and ego as well so we're on the same page here.

your definition of god is the only one that has made sense so far, i was talking about orions belt earlier because it reminds me of some sort of cosmic "god" or creator of some sort. im not saying there isnt an ultimate creator, of course there is, but the god im saying is not real is the one that you pray to, or the one you thank your food for, that was what i was trying to say earlier. and i dont expect god to come down and lend a hand, but its as if many rely on "him" to make their decisions, you may as well ask god to untie you from train tracks. idk if all religious texts follow that either, if we're talking about christianity still i dont believe that to be true, christians tell you to ask for forgiveness in hopes to stay away from a burning pit of fire, if thats not old school way traumatize children with an extensive imagination, idk what is. some religions do want us to be happy, and not worry about any after life. most eastern religions have this sort of characteristic, and they're more a way of life if anything.

i believe some literature is beneficial, others may leave your mind ridden with all sort of false knowledge, one of the other reasons i find religious texts to be a bad source of knowledge. yes, there will be facts in there, i dont think all religious texts are completely the same but most(except most of the eastern religions of course) dont give you much more than common sense and a few fictional stories that are supposed to teach you morals. yes,i reject these religions, as should many who believe the facts of life that make these texts false, had they not existed, our world would be much less segregated, jerusalem would be peaceful... hell we may have not even separated into different countries. this thread would not exist either, and possibly plenty of wars could have been avoided. 

once again, its not the idea of god i reject, its the form of god that religions explain. i dont think god is a he or she, i dont think its a being at all, maybe it doesnt even make choices, but it was the first thing to really exist. i do believe science hold the facts of life, and everything can be proved by it, however we havent come far enough to really know anything, we know nothing of space, our universe, or anything. we dont know nearly enough yet to underestimate something as sure as science. 

the problem i have with cherry picking, is that you can take one piece of the book you live by, but then reject another? what makes the first piece of knowledge better than the next? and if this book has bad advice, why are you following it at all.
and by cherry picking, you dont believe all the same beliefs, you cherry picked so you only believe some parts. idk how atheism is a religion either, please elaborate. 


and im so tired im hallucinating right now, ill be back on here in the morn, thanks for the intriguing conversation dr j20, youve made some very valid points.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 2, 2012)

> ask any real scientist and you'll find that the ultimate limits of science provoke some of the greatest leaps of faith


Could you give some examples of science incorporating faith into it's answers?



Dr.J20 said:


> if you believe there are some kind of cosmic mysteries you believe in some form of a metaphysical "god" figure and therefore are arguing semantically---you just don't like the word God



This seems to be a false dilemma. Acknowledging that the universe has complex mysteries is much different than saying it contains an interactive god who answers prayers and dictates behavior. Which religion do you know of that knowingly worships cosmic mysteries?


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 2, 2012)

If Jesus were alive today, he'd be standing on a soap box at a busy intersection in New York city spreading his "word" .... and we'd most likely find a comfy bed for him in a padded room.


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## Dr.J20 (Jun 2, 2012)

I'm sorry, this has gotten out of hand...
this bit about cherry picking makes no sense: so human judgment should never be exercised? we should discard anything if it is ever wrong on any single point? a single wrong statement invalidates an entire work?

you have no idea what you're talking about right now. this is not an insult or a criticism, it has become apparent that you're talking about things you have not yet researched. This is not a bad thing entirely, as it is encouraging to see such curiosity. YOu should satisfy this curiosity.

Your anger seems to lie with the earthly manifestations of faith. there will be no proof for a belief, that is why it is a belief.
given my rendition of "religion" (i.e. its definition) atheism is most certainly a religion: a group of people who say we believe X and will use X as our guiding principle for the cultivation of a peaceful, happy existence.

get some rest, if you want to continue these kinds of debates its going to take a lot.

In honesty, and i don't want to sound preachy or condescending here, but it sounds like you're doing what corrupted religions themselves do: find a scapegoat for the earth's ills, a tidy simple answer for why all thats wrong is wrong...

if you took away religion people would find something else to fight about pal, thats the value of all these ancient texts...read some virgil, we've been longing for a peaceful pastoral since before christ. literally. So, take heart, I know it seems like theres a ton of bad shit in the world, but there's a lot of good, so no matter your views on religion, living ethically and morally, and really considering every action, you'll live a healthy happy life

be easy


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## cannabineer (Jun 2, 2012)

st0wandgrow said:


> If Jesus were alive today, he'd be standing on a soap box at a busy intersection in New York city spreading his "word" .... and we'd most likely find a comfy bed for him in a padded room.


Since Reagan? He's on his own!! cn


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## Heisenberg (Jun 2, 2012)

Dr.J20 said:


> Your anger seems to lie with the earthly manifestations of faith. *there will be no proof for a belief*, that is why it is a belief.
> given my rendition of "religion" (i.e. its definition) atheism is most certainly a religion:* a group of people who say we believe X and will use X* as our guiding principle for the cultivation of a peaceful, happy existence.


All beliefs have proof except pseudoscientific ones. We believe a proposition because we trust that it accurately represents a state of reality. From a simple belief like "I tied my shoes this morning" to a complicated belief like those behind chemotherapy, this remains true. Even a superstitious belief, like fear of black cats, follows the mechanism of trusting that it states something about reality. Basic survival demands we be accurate about our reality. Beliefs become principals of action. We rightfully attempt to justify beliefs with some sort of evidence. We seek for them to cohere both logically and comparatively with each other. This is why individuals are able to construct a personal view of the world that largely agrees with others. Even something simple like knowing what I mean when I say words like 'danger', 'upwards', or 'seven' stems from this shared connection. Religious beliefs are not distinct; they are not exempt from this premise, so why should they be exempt from the constraints we apply to all other beliefs?

And as we point out often on these forums, Atheism is NOT a belief, it is the lack of a belief. It is a position utterly without content. Atheists do not say 'I believe X' they say, essentially, 'I reject the argument for a deity'. The reasons for rejection can be personal, logical, or simply rebellion, but atheism itself begins and ends at rejection. Knowing someone is atheist tells you only one very specific thing about them, that they are not a theist. This includes _anything_ that is not theism, even indecision. Some atheists go on to say 'I believe there is no god", but that is done in addition to and outside of atheism.

Furthermore, just saying I believe X and will use X as my life's philosophy' is not a religion, even if a bunch of people do it together, it's a discipline based on an ideology. This is what religion and skepticism or secularism have in common. The distinction, in the context of this discussion of course, is that religion tries to relate specifically to spirituality and superhuman agency.


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## Dr.J20 (Jun 2, 2012)

I had a response to all of this but i'm not sure if we're going to get anywhere having failed to define our terms at the outset. I agree that a group of people living by a philosophy is not actually a religion. deconstructing what a religion is, however, does yield a group of people who have, often for a long time, invested their belief in a set of principle often codified by the same group. the problem with these forums is context is very difficult to maintain. The thrust of my posts have been largely to recommend that the reasons for being atheist are no more certain than the reasons for being a theist. the point being, reason is not preeminent, that is fairly old hat. the sciences fall under this camp, often, though it is not necessary for that to be the case. The ultimate question here is one of faith. a nonbeliever will not believe and a believer will. That there exist peaceful, happy, non-harming practitioners of all faiths does speak loudly for the fact that you can maintain some set of religious beliefs and be a good person, not harming anyone else. And, that there are some atheists who do terrible things only says that there is a capacity for evil inherent in every individual, his or her atheism had little to do with his or her terrible actions. 
im out


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## Dr.J20 (Jun 2, 2012)

Dislexicmidget2021 said:


> Whoever has a mind has the ability to delude themselves with what they wish,yet even more scarey, delude others that are with weaker mind,which are far to many in number.People that believe they talk to higher powered beings never left pretend time as kids,yes I would be inclined to think they are schitzo for sure.I use to believe in this stuff as a kid through early teen,but never heard any special voices and never made any invisible friends with omnipotency.I guess some people get so desperate for hope that they will happily delude themselves into faith because it is so easy to rest all of your concerns about truth on an intangible being.It is like hitting the easy button to claim faith as youre reasoning behind the belief,so that the mind may circumvent the effort to ask the important Who,what,where,when and WHY.



while i do agree some people claim "faith" when they don't want to reason something out. that's not really faith though. this is what i mean with define our terms. faith can only be cultivated through great struggle, and arduous contemplation. Arguing with yourself, trying to find something very sound and reasonable. And i don't think you really need faith for anything that can be proven so theres a fairly limited scope for faith. but just claiming you believe something because you have faith without considering it reasonably and looking for all possible holes in that belief before subscribing to it, then you're just dicking around and being lazy.


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## mindphuk (Jun 2, 2012)

Dr.J20 said:


> What's confusing is that you use the fact that man is corruptible as proof that God doesn't exist?


Certainly there are facts about our world and humanity that disprove some types of deities such as those that are 'perfect' and whose creation is 'perfect.' Omnibenevolent along with ominipotence and ominiscience are inherently and logically contradicted unless one alters definitions. 


> God is a human word for a force that started it all. You can go back in time and history to a point before earth even existed, but you can't pre-date existence itself. So when you remove time all that you have left is cosmic energy that has always existed and will always exist: that's God.


Seems to me that if god is the word given to a basic, fundamental part of nature, that diminishes the idea of a god and makes it meaningless. If god is nature then we are all theists but there will still be people arguing that god is intelligent and created this or that. We then are basically arguing what kind of theist are we, deistic, interventionist, etc. This is one of the many problems I have with pantheism. 


> You see, you have articulations with these religions you reject: how could you reject them without their existence and knowing something of them?


If one rejects the idea of an intelligent agent that created the universe, we don't need to know details of the religion to reject it if it believes in such god(s) at its core. 


> I do believe there is a sense of arrogance in someone who thinks that God sees killing the same way we do, and so supposes God doesn't exist.


I see the arrogance is in people that claim to have knowledge about the thing(s) that they tell us we cannot really know such as....


> God is inevitably of stronger spirit and will than you,


 and ...


> He also sees a much bigger picture than you do,





> and who knows, maybe all the innocent slaughtered are rewarded once their state of existence changes/passes through life?


Who knows? No one. Pretending you have knowledge of these things, especially to the point of claiming knowledge of such a god's existence, is arrogant. 


> Your presumption is grand but as contradictory as the religions you lambast.


The presumption of non-existence of things without evidence is not grand, it is basic and should be the default position on everything. Claiming it is contradictory is ridiculous and indemonstrable. 


> It seems like you say science will reveal all of the facts of existence,


Science will reveal what is possible to know. If something is beyond the reach of science, it is most likely unknowable and hence will remain in the realm of philosophy.


> ask any real scientist and you'll find that the ultimate limits of science provoke some of the greatest leaps of faith.


I'm a real scientist and I have no faith of the religious kind. 


> to some extent even atheism is a religion.


Atheism is an accusation by those that believe in a god. If there were no believers, there would be no word for atheism. Atheism is therefore an answer to a question. It has no tenets or beliefs, it is not a doctrine, it only says I don't accept the claim that a god exists.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 2, 2012)

Dr.J20 said:


> The thrust of my posts have been largely to recommend that the reasons for being atheist are no more certain than the reasons for being a theist. the point being, reason is not preeminent, that is fairly old hat.


The only reason needed to be an atheist is the failure of the theist argument to be convincing. There needs to be no certainty involved. When you speak of certainty you are speaking of a specific subset of atheists who are speculating beyond the ideology. Absolute certainty requires a degree of faith, that is true in every case, but you can't axiomatically assign certainty to the atheist position. 

To say that reason is no more distinct than speculation misses the very purpose of reasoning. Faith guesses and pretends certitude and that is the heart of the issue, no matter what position that faith is supporting. This is an idea inherit to science, which is why no scientific positions, including atheism, require faith.


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## Dr.J20 (Jun 2, 2012)

I'm fairly certain I have not expressed myself well and I can see how I have made statements which elide certain steps in my thought process. However, I don't believe that I claimed to have certain knowledge of anything: I tried to propose some different manners of thinking on the subject of whether god exists and why people have belief. I apologize if I have offended anyone in so doing, but I remain certain that the petty foibles of man neither prove nor disprove the existence of a God


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## 420IAMthatIAM (Jun 2, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> title says it all, im just curious how people can look into ancient text and find their purpose in life? especially since most of these books go by life thousands of years ago. most of you also cherry pick the books you live by also, but why only live by some words and not the others? if these people made this book and you completely take their word without any of their proof, doesnt it defeat the purpose when you reject on fallacy but accept another? how do you go about judging what is morally right in the books you live by, when you base your morals on said book?
> 
> also, has anyone ever taken into account, when someone believe they spoke to "god" or some other "higher being", do you ever wonder if this person may have been schizophrenic? possibly even on drugs, or maybe just dreaming? how do you live by the words of something that has no proof, and ignore something that shows evidence of proof like science?
> 
> ...


may be people really dont believe even though they may say they do. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. in other words if my coffee cup is empty..and my hope is that on the count of 3 it will be full...the presence of the coffee is the substance and the evidence of my belief,,aka faith... Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 3, 2012)

Dr.J20 said:


> I'm sorry, this has gotten out of hand...
> this bit about cherry picking makes no sense: so human judgment should never be exercised? we should discard anything if it is ever wrong on any single point? a single wrong statement invalidates an entire work?
> 
> you have no idea what you're talking about right now. this is not an insult or a criticism, it has become apparent that you're talking about things you have not yet researched. This is not a bad thing entirely, as it is encouraging to see such curiosity. YOu should satisfy this curiosity.
> ...


all im saying about cherry picking is why would you believe one piece of knowledge from a book you supposedly live your life by, but reject another? isnt there something wrong with that? i mean yes, there is such thing as human judgement, but dont you take that out of account when following something as mindless as religion? religion makes you a drone to whatever religion you are. some decide to take outside knowledge, many of them deny the facts of science, this is one of the biggest problems i have with religion, people have the answers now but these unappreciative thick headed smug shit heads(im speaking of mostly christians, im sorry but my whole state is flooded with them and i have never liked their attitudes towards different beliefs) read a book that was altered many times, that has no background proof, then deny something that has been well proven. 

dont get me started on the old testament either, talk about bad advice, theres one line that says "eat your children", i dont remember the exact quote but im sure you know what im talking about since your a bit more informed on this religious propoganda, and you believe it tells you to live a happy life but the institutions of the church have completely changed the way people use a bible, they ask so much more than you to live happy, they want your money, and your time. i know youll say "but these texts have some use", yes, but why fall into these petty beliefs rather than reading something useful. every hotel room has a bible(i use the back pages for joint papers when desperate so thats the only good thing that comes of them), but why not an encyclopedia or something that has some sort of useful knowledge, not made up shit that has been altered over years to work off the fear of burning in a fire pit and the guilt of "jesus dying for your sins". its sad to me that these people fall for one of the biggest schemes known to man, even china knows to not let western religion effect their culture, all the church wants is power. 

so to sum it up, yes, i do have problems with both religion(mostly western religions, ones that focus on theism, spreading their word, and stopping the non believers, etc) and its institution, i think you have realized this by now. 


i think i know a bit about what im talking about, once again im a humble person so i wont claim anything, i know im a curious person, thats why i come on here to debate with people, im sorry if my statements show some sort of anger towards religion, ive grown up in a state that emphasizes how essential religion is, if you say your atheist here people think of you differently, so of course im not happy about their smug religion. im still pretty young, i have plenty of time to learn more about this shit so dont think im calling you wrong or anything, when discussing religion nobodys right or wrong. 

i do have a problem with faith when one outweighs fact with faith, that makes 0 sense to me. as an atheist i believe you shouldnt listen to things you dont have proof for, and to live a happy existence you should let people change your outlook on life, get out there, experience as many cultures possible, and see how the human race works. all religions were created because science wasnt yet advanced enough to give these people answers, we live in an age where we have them now yet we still rely on these books to give us answers, does that make sense to you? it doesnt to me, i mean there is some knowledge to be found in those texts but its nothing you cant learn from getting out in the world, or reading something about common sense, which i dont think would be necessary since culture will shape you into what they believe is right, as will religion. 

im not stating religion is the scapegoat of our worldly problems, although many could be avoided without it. take all the words from these books with a grain of salt, thats the only advice id give if you choose to let your eyes wander into these works of propaganda(once again, mostly western religions). its just another dividing factor, race is already enough for man to fight so why let another dividing factor get in the way of the coexistence of man. im glad you want me to live a happy existence and all, but there are many out there who let religion restrict them from doing so much, especially our government, its religiously biased and i believe religion has nothing to do with government, yet our currency still says one nation under god. religion shouldnt be as abundant as it is, its involved in much more than it should be.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 3, 2012)

420IAMthatIAM said:


> may be people really dont believe even though they may say they do. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. in other words if my coffee cup is empty..and my hope is that on the count of 3 it will be full...the presence of the coffee is the substance and the evidence of my belief,,aka faith... Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


correct me if im wrong, but basically, faith has no ground proof and you wont get anything out of praying or believing something. if only faith was reliable, every night id wish for my plants to finish over night lol. and i dont really believe in the spirit, i think we use spirit to define our consciousness more or less. we'll never have proof of it although.


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## Dr.J20 (Jun 3, 2012)

CrazyHazy,
I really can't respond because I'm not really sure what your statement is now. It seems there are some issues with terminology. A religious text is not a religion. Someone who blindly follows the bible's every single word is called a literalist. These people occupy a vast faction of American Christendom, but not the whole of that religion. 

What you seem to be looking for from a religion is a how-to guide for a happy life. Some religions, especially the younger, western ones you seem to have a problem with, do present themselves as just that. They fully believe if they place all of these crazy restrictions on themselves they will live a very happy life, indeed, and see it as necessary to force everyone around them to believe those same crazy restrictions. These people tend to be like the ones who are in your state, forcing their beliefs on you. I have a huge problem with this as well. But my problem is not with religion in general, it is with those who have, as you say, only cherry picked quotations from the bible to support beliefs they already hold....a practice which goes on today everywhere from foxnews to these forums.

I agree with you that there are many evangelists that will select one part of the old testament but have no explanation for that part's contradiction later in the same book of the bible. However, that doesn't mean we should throw out all religion totally. 

What I think you're suffering from is being inundated with a particular brand of self-styled "Christianity" which foregoes Jesus of Nazareth's total motif of teaching: love your neighbor more than yourself (where neighbor means everyone).

As for your fetish for proof: Let us make clear a number of points: 1) I do not wish to foray into a debate about science vs. religion and apologize for making general claims which were unclear and seemed to contradict the words of scientists themselves. (2) There are matters in science which are purely theoretical, meaning they have no way of being proved even though these theoretics seem to hold up in reality more often than not. Heisenberg, think of your principle (for those not Heisenberg, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle); or Gravity, that's a good one that breaks down at the quantum level but is clearly observable and predictable at the macro level.

Given these two points, I would like to re-clarify my earlier point that my initial mention of science has been to illustrate only at the very FRINGES of exploration, that theorization must take place. I then, in another step that went unstated, elided theorization and belief on a philosophical ground that takes both belief and theory to require a great deal of contemplating relevant information before hammering down your final belief or theory. That stated, the quasi-synonymous statements of belief and theory were interchanged such that I could make the statement that, even a real scientist will tell you that some belief is involved at the EDGES of the discipline.

So, while I take,well, your point about wanting proof, I am merely pointing out the counterpoint that even that which is regarded as scientific fact is merely a datum held in the vast sphere of knowledge that we all AGREE is sound. To some extent, facts are only facts because enough well reasoned people agree that they are facts (*obviously this is a huge simplification for our point in history*) 

The long and short of this is a desire to stop you from making the mistake of thinking that reason, science, logic, and fact are or ought to be the preeminent qualities of existence. That is, these things are good, but they are not the absolute most important. There is something to be said for a the existence of the metaphysical, man's mythopoetic bent, the emotional, the spiritual. Hell, athletes provide a great intersection of the seemingly impossible and possible, as do musicians. Athletes must struggle with the physics of kinematics and musicians with the physics of acoustics and oscillations. But what they produce is oftentimes (at least the great ones) beyond their own capacities for explanation. 

I'm not sure where I was really going with that last bit but i suppose the long and short of my point is to get you to not be too black and white about this.

All religion is not bad, and all those who claim allegiance to a religious faith are not proselytizing fatheaded fascists. Nor is all religion good and there are some assholes who pervert a religion based on that religion's text(s). 
I'm sorry if my point came across the wrong way, I really only want to avoid conflating your average anti-gay, anti-drug, anti-fun, anti-freedom evangelist with the extremely enlightened buddhist, or hindu, or taoist, or jesuit, or rabbi, or Imam

Its always a spectrum and there's always a middle ground

be easy


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## crazyhazey (Jun 3, 2012)

> CrazyHazy,
> I really can't respond because I'm not really sure what your statement is now. It seems there are some issues with terminology. A religious text is not a religion. Someone who blindly follows the bible's every single word is called a literalist. These people occupy a vast faction of American Christendom, but not the whole of that religion. What you seem to be looking for from a religion is a how-to guide for a happy life. Some religions, especially the younger, western ones you seem to have a problem with, do present themselves as just that. They fully believe if they place all of these crazy restrictions on themselves they will live a very happy life, indeed, and see it as necessary to force everyone around them to believe those same crazy restrictions. These people tend to be like the ones who are in your state, forcing their beliefs on you. I have a huge problem with this as well. But my problem is not with religion in general, it is with those who have, as you say, only cherry picked quotations from the bible to support beliefs they already hold....a practice which goes on today everywhere from foxnews to these forums.




i agree with this but down here open-mindedness is out of question, quite literally almost all of them are what you call a literalist. some of the newer religions dont have just one general message although they do say treat other how you want to be treated, theres many other things they live by, such as these ridiculous restrictions to remain "pure" in the eyes of their god. also many other aspects to those religions due to difference of interpretations. i feel cherry picking is like half assing a religion, why call yourself anything if you dont believe all the parts of it, nobody should call themselves a religion if they believe only a small percent of it, you cant say "im 7% christian because i listen to 7% of the bible. if you disagree with points, you shouldnt have faith in said religion at all. if you disagree with some of these religious texts then go read something about common sense, thats basically the bible minus all of the bullshit. 




> I agree with you that there are many evangelists that will select one part of the old testament but have no explanation for that part's contradiction later in the same book of the bible. However, that doesn't mean we should throw out all religion totally.
> What I think you're suffering from is being inundated with a particular brand of self-styled "Christianity" which foregoes Jesus of Nazareth's total motif of teaching: love your neighbor more than yourself (where neighbor means everyone).



why deny something? what makes the ones you accept any better? and taking trust in a book that has been alter for years isnt smart, just my opinion although.





> As for your fetish for proof: Let us make clear a number of points: 1) I do not wish to foray into a debate about science vs. religion and apologize for making general claims which were unclear and seemed to contradict the words of scientists themselves. (2) There are matters in science which are purely theoretical, meaning they have no way of being proved even though these theoretics seem to hold up in reality more often than not. Heisenberg, think of your principle (for those not Heisenberg, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle); or Gravity, that's a good one that breaks down at the quantum level but is clearly observable and predictable at the macro level.




lol can you blame me for wanting evidence? this is an example, but if your a cop you cant just believe things, you need evidence before taking actions. i believe the same thing when making something my own belief. i wasnt saying you contradicted the words of science, but like i said earlier id take sides with whoever has proof. science can prove theories though, after its been tested enough it becomes fact, those that remain theories are beyond our knowledge, but we should not let religion answer these questions, we should push to understand them more. science will only give us better answer to the simpler questions, and it will be much more predictable than an observation. 




> Given these two points, I would like to re-clarify my earlier point that my initial mention of science has been to illustrate only at the very FRINGES of exploration, that theorization must take place. I then, in another step that went unstated, elided theorization and belief on a philosophical ground that takes both belief and theory to require a great deal of contemplating relevant information before hammering down your final belief or theory. That stated, the quasi-synonymous statements of belief and theory were interchanged such that I could make the statement that, even a real scientist will tell you that some belief is involved at the EDGES of the discipline.
> 
> 
> So, while I take,well, your point about wanting proof, I am merely pointing out the counterpoint that even that which is regarded as scientific fact is merely a datum held in the vast sphere of knowledge that we all AGREE is sound. To some extent, facts are only facts because enough well reasoned people agree that they are facts (*obviously this is a huge simplification for our point in history*)



i believe a fact can only be proven by testing it over and over through numbers, numbers never lie like people can. 




> The long and short of this is a desire to stop you from making the mistake of thinking that reason, science, logic, and fact are or ought to be the preeminent qualities of existence. That is, these things are good, but they are not the absolute most important. There is something to be said for a the existence of the metaphysical, man's mythopoetic bent, the emotional, the spiritual. Hell, athletes provide a great intersection of the seemingly impossible and possible, as do musicians. Athletes must struggle with the physics of kinematics and musicians with the physics of acoustics and oscillations. But what they produce is oftentimes (at least the great ones) beyond their own capacities for explanation.



im sure theres an explanation we have not yet found, any christian can call it a miracle but man will do its best to survive, as will all life forms no matter the task. i believe the mind is the most powerful thing in the universe, if someone knew how to use it all who knows what they could accomplish. 




> I'm not sure where I was really going with that last bit but i suppose the long and short of my point is to get you to not be too black and white about this.
> 
> All religion is not bad, and all those who claim allegiance to a religious faith are not proselytizing fatheaded fascists. Nor is all religion good and there are some assholes who pervert a religion based on that religion's text(s).
> I'm sorry if my point came across the wrong way, I really only want to avoid conflating your average anti-gay, anti-drug, anti-fun, anti-freedom evangelist with the extremely enlightened buddhist, or hindu, or taoist, or jesuit, or rabbi, or Imam
> ...



yes, im glad you see it how i do and i fully agree there is some good that may come of certain religions, unfortunately this is almost never the case in our country. with beliefs, politics, etc, we should all stay in this middle ground. i agree you should try to learn something from all sides of the spectrum since they all have something to offer. you have made some excellent points, thanks for your time and thoughts on religion, this conversation has made me a bit more open to some of the things that these religious texts can offer, as do any texts made by man. i realize reading wont hurt, but like i said earlier, i take everything with a grain of salt and faith simply cant be the answer to questions.


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## drive (Jun 3, 2012)

crazyhazey I gather you have never been touched by the lord. Its a wonderful feeling to except Jesus into your heart.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 3, 2012)

Dr.J20 said:


> The long and short of this is a desire to stop you from making the mistake of thinking that reason, science, logic, and fact are or ought to be the preeminent qualities of existence. That is, these things are good, but they are not the absolute most important. There is something to be said for a the existence of the metaphysical, man's mythopoetic bent, the emotional, the spiritual. Hell, athletes provide a great intersection of the seemingly impossible and possible, as do musicians. Athletes must struggle with the physics of kinematics and musicians with the physics of acoustics and oscillations. But what they produce is oftentimes (at least the great ones) beyond their own capacities for explanation.




If it interacts with reality, science can study it. If it does not interact with reality, what good is it? How is it distinguishable from fantasy? If something is completely beyond science (nature) then it is completely beyond reality and has no practical value, it is truly negligible. Can you name any great achievement that does not involve logic? What is a situation that has produced something useful that does not involve reason? Even metaphysical proponents, once they get done discounting the value of evidence, turn around and offer evidence. What these beliefs want, including religion, is not to discount the idea of evidential support, but to discount the standards we have for such support. They seek to widen the definition of what we call evidence. 

You can read religious texts and pray with god for your whole life, you can sit in a cave and meditate for 40 years, you can spend every spare moment inside a sensory deprivation chamber on psychedelics communing with the universe, in none of these situation will you come out with any knowledge of physics, mathematics, thermodynamics, or anything of any substance at all. Metaphysical study does not deliver knowledge, just pretense. If you want to actually know ANYTHING you need study and logic.

There is nothing non-scientific or magical about what athletes and musicians accomplish, in fact many talents are made better once science offers an understanding of their mechanics.





> All religion is not bad, and all those who claim allegiance to a religious faith are not proselytizing fatheaded fascists. Nor is all religion good and there are some assholes who pervert a religion based on that religion's text(s).
> I'm sorry if my point came across the wrong way, I really only want to avoid conflating your average anti-gay, anti-drug, anti-fun, anti-freedom evangelist with the extremely enlightened buddhist, or hindu, or taoist, or jesuit, or rabbi, or Imam
> 
> Its always a spectrum and there's always a middle ground
> ...


We are speaking of those religions (nearly all) that require surrender of the mind to ignorance and supposition. Even the most harmless seeming religion has the potential to cause harm when we favor fantasy over reality, as pointed out earlier with Amish shunning and suicide. The only reason there is a middleground is because science has filled in the gaps of our ignorance and religion is kept in check by policy. Just look at history during the times when religion had power, you wont see much tolerance for middleground. If most religions had their way, they would indeed seek to promote and enforce anti-human rights sentiments.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 3, 2012)

drive said:


> crazyhazey I gather you have never been touched by the lord. Its a wonderful feeling to except Jesus into your heart.


i was once christian at a very young age, luckily i stopped going to church before i was touched by anyone lol


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## drive (Jun 3, 2012)

LOL them priests are motha i mean kiddie fuckas


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## drive (Jun 3, 2012)

hiensberg what about Haiti relief we have forgotton all about haiti but I know people that still go down building and suppling aid they go to catholic church


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## crazyhazey (Jun 3, 2012)

drive said:


> LOL them priests are motha i mean kiddie fuckas


haha yeah, i dont think theres been a not creepy priest in history, i guess its the ideology that rules are made to broken gone to an extreme, they rape/molest little kids, then 5 minutes later they go off and tell someone they're a sinner and god forgives them. its like a cop gone corrupt, but little boys are what corrupted them. if i was "god" id strike those fuckers with lightning.


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## Hugo Phurst (Jun 3, 2012)

Sorry, I can't provide any "hard" evidence that God exists. On the other hand I can't prove the existence of multiple dimensions beyond our three, but I certainly believe they're there.

I don't look for the meaning of existenance in a book, I look at the universe.

Lolz, I was taught by my Minister(s) to question. The Bible is not the definative end all of how to live, I (try to)use it as a reference and guideline. It was re-written and edited by a politicaly motivated committee, whole books were removed because those in power didn't like what they said[short version].

Maybe, you have to be schizophrenic inorder for your brain to be wired correctly to hear Heaven and Hell. I don't know.

I guess faith means believing something that can't be proved. You know kinda like the unified quantum field theory, no direct evidence at all, nada, none, zip, zero.


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## Dr.J20 (Jun 3, 2012)

Heisenberg, you and I agree on most everything about science; denying that there is value in anything that science can't study is just plain provincial. denying that there is anything magical about a musical performance or an athletic competition--when such things are at the zenith of their respective potentialities--is just sad.

I'm sorry that you find harm in even a religion like Buddhism. 
I disagree that only the ignorant are faithful; I disagree that fantasy is valueless.
be easy


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## Heisenberg (Jun 3, 2012)

Dr.J20 said:


> Heisenberg, you and I agree on most everything about science; denying that there is value in anything that science can't study is just plain provincial. denying that there is anything magical about a musical performance or an athletic competition--when such things are at the zenith of their respective potentialities--is just sad.
> 
> I'm sorry that you find harm in even a religion like Buddhism.
> I disagree that only the ignorant are faithful; I disagree that fantasy is valueless.
> be easy



I actually do not take the position that only the ignorant are faithful, as you'll see if you stick around or stumble on my past posts. Buddhism can offer a way to live life without accepting pretend answers, and is one religion I have relatively few problems with as I see it more as a discipline, but the potential for harm is still there because of it's superfluous nature and willingness to trust unfounded assumptions.

I can certainly see using a word like magical to describe some displays of talent, but there is nothing supernatural about the experience. I can see some value in fantasy, similar to the value I see in anecdotal evidence. It can be worthy of interest, even provide a platform for study, but can never be used on it's own merits to provide answers.

You claim faith or speculation exists in the fringes of science, but it is actually ingrained into the very process. The first few steps of the scientific method are all about speculation. The difference is in what we do with that speculation. In the end, any of the conclusions science offers have been distilled of faith and speculation via the process. There is no doubt fantasy can sometimes point us in the right direction to find answers, some of which might not have been discovered otherwise, but without intelligent inquiry, systematic doubt and consistent logic, it will never be more than fantasy.


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## NetGuruINC (Jun 3, 2012)

you guys want proof of the truth? go to youtube and type in "nde" and checkout near death experiences. EVERY video and i mean EVERY PERSON who had a near death experience has reported either going to hell or heaven, some went to heaven and saw Jesus and other relatives, some went to hell and saw torment. This is TRUE stuff you guys NEED to check it out theres tons of these videos of people reporting their NDE. Jesus is the truth and the only way, do the research on NDE's (Near Death Experiences)


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## crazyhazey (Jun 3, 2012)

NetGuruINC said:


> you guys want proof of the truth? go to youtube and type in "nde" and checkout near death experiences. EVERY video and i mean EVERY PERSON who had a near death experience has reported either going to hell or heaven, some went to heaven and saw Jesus and other relatives, some went to hell and saw torment. This is TRUE stuff you guys NEED to check it out theres tons of these videos of people reporting their NDE. Jesus is the truth and the only way, do the research on NDE's (Near Death Experiences)


have you ever heard of the pinneal gland? well all of it is released when you die(or nearly die), so you basically go into a really intense DMT trip. i admit i have spoken/met spirits on DMT, but i never went to heaven or hell, just what we like to call hyper space. its the depths of your mind, your trips reflect your life, personality, culture, etc. theres much that goes into account, but jesus isnt the answer im sorry. do some DMT if you find yourself wanting more answers, you may find more about yourself than you want to know. people may be so committed to the fallacy that they will either go to heaven or hell, this has been hypothetically branded into their minds, so yes, their trip may exhibit some more religious views, once again, trips will reflect your life basically. when i trip, i dont see gods, rather orbs of light and amazing sights, last time i did it was a few months ago but i remember floating in space seeing things i never knew existed. i believe we use the other 90% of our mind when we allow our pinneal glad to release DMT, but this of course is just theory.

if you really want "truth", you must have proof. although DMT does teach you much, you wont learn about your surrounds but rather yourself, the individual. if you want to see something truly amazing, look up orions belt seen through the hubble telescope. thats the closest thing to what we would define as a god, just my opinion although.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 3, 2012)

NetGuruINC said:


> you guys want proof of the truth? go to youtube and type in "nde" and checkout near death experiences. EVERY video and i mean EVERY PERSON who had a near death experience has reported either going to hell or heaven, some went to heaven and saw Jesus and other relatives, some went to hell and saw torment. This is TRUE stuff you guys NEED to check it out theres tons of these videos of people reporting their NDE. Jesus is the truth and the only way, do the research on NDE's (Near Death Experiences)


How is a disruption in normal brain function evidence for Jesus?

NDE's are nothing new, and very few people actually report seeing heaven or hell specifically. Some see flames, some see a bright light, some float above their body, some review moments from thier life, some float through a foggy tunnel, some hear buzzing and tones, some see relatives, both dead and alive... the list is actually pretty big, and none of these happen within the same experience. What's more interesting is the staggering number of people who come near death and do not experience anything. I guess most of us do not get to go either place.

If you are going to be impressed by the similarities in the stories, then you must acknowledge that other experiences humans have are almost identical. Divers or pilots experiencing rapid pressure change, people taking LSD, people fasting for long periods, people who are dreaming, and people suffering from schizophrenia all have NDE's that have nothing to do with death. The common thread is altered brain function.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 3, 2012)

[youtube]Xd8KPzJP0_U[/youtube]

so tell me, why didnt your god tell you about this?


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## 420IAMthatIAM (Jun 3, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> I actually do not take the position that only the ignorant are faithful, as you'll see if you stick around or stumble on my past posts. Buddhism can offer a way to live life without accepting pretend answers, and is one religion I have relatively few problems with as I see it more as a discipline, but the potential for harm is still there because of it's superfluous nature and willingness to trust unfounded assumptions.
> 
> I can certainly see using a word like magical to describe some displays of talent, but there is nothing supernatural about the experience. I can see some value in fantasy, similar to the value I see in anecdotal evidence. It can be worthy of interest, even provide a platform for study, but can never be used on it's own merits to provide answers.
> 
> You claim faith or speculation exists in the fringes of science, but it is actually ingrained into the very process. The first few steps of the scientific method are all about speculation. The difference is in what we do with that speculation. In the end, any of the conclusions science offers have been distilled of faith and speculation via the process. There is no doubt fantasy can sometimes point us in the right direction to find answers, some of which might not have been discovered otherwise, but without intelligent inquiry, systematic doubt and consistent logic, it will never be more than fantasy.


 look at buck rogers


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## esc420211 (Jun 4, 2012)

I think that there are a lot of problems with the bible. Like god made us in his image humans are too imperfect. and regarding the priests who molest children, dont you think they would be drawn to such an occupation. I would like to become a priest to help people. And if you read the beginning of the bible it says there was darkness(pre big bang), then there was light (big bang). makes sense to me


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## crazyhazey (Jun 5, 2012)

esc420211 said:


> I think that there are a lot of problems with the bible. Like god made us in his image humans are too imperfect. and regarding the priests who molest children, dont you think they would be drawn to such an occupation. I would like to become a priest to help people. And if you read the beginning of the bible it says there was darkness(pre big bang), then there was light (big bang). makes sense to me


so all priests that became child rapists knew before that they were such a thing? who aspires to tell people they're sinners, and recite the lies of the bible. not myself, im sorry but religion is too corrupt nowadays, any outside beliefs are met with arrogance by most churches. and please dont tell me you thought the people who wrote the bible knew about the big bang theory. that didnt come till many, many years later.


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## Zaehet Strife (Jun 5, 2012)

Dr.J20 said:


> I'm sorry, this has gotten out of hand...
> this bit about cherry picking makes no sense: so human judgment should never be exercised? we should discard anything if it is ever wrong on any single point? a single wrong statement invalidates an entire work?
> 
> you have no idea what you're talking about right now. this is not an insult or a criticism, it has become apparent that you're talking about things you have not yet researched. This is not a bad thing entirely, as it is encouraging to see such curiosity. YOu should satisfy this curiosity.
> ...


If we have a word for people who don't believe in god... why isn't there a word for people who don't believe in golf, or santa clause, or fairies? Are these non-golfers/fairyists/clausians considered a religious group? or maybe considered a non-religious group? 

It seems to me that from the day we are born the default position is_ "i dont know what the fuck is going on, i dont really know if what i know is what i really know, its scary, awesome and crazy all at the same time"_ -Atheist. 

Atheist is the default position to life, the position we held from the day we were born... we never claim truth to anything that we really don't know, or to ideas that cannot hold up to the burdens of proof.

It seems as if when we are growing up from babyhood into childhood, the ideas that we are given by other humans tend to lead us towards "beliefs" which are IN FACT just *IDEAS* that _we claim truth to_... which is absurd when taking into consideration there is no inherent truth when dealing with theology/metaphysics/spirituality. -because these ideas can only be viewed subjectively...


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## Zaehet Strife (Jun 5, 2012)

*Beliefs are ideas*. It's just that beliefs are a certain type of idea, beliefs are ideas that hold claim to some sort of truth factor.

Ideas (beliefs) that cannot stand up to the scrutinies of the burden of proof are fallacious ideas. 

Unless the idea is star wars, legend of zelda or lord of the rings... because those are cool fuckin ideas. (which do not have to stand up to the burdens of proof, because it is not saying that it is true)

But if the idea is god... in my humble opinion, that's a stupid fuckin idea that takes the responsibilities of being human and of our world and throws them into the clouds. 

^i don't have to take care of it, something else will
^things are going exactly how they should be going
^i dont need to change, god will change me

Countless ideas that we have in order for us to slip out of the hold that responsibility shackles to us. Responsibility for choosing who we are, what we are, why we are. Responsibility for feeling good about ourselves, and helping others do the same. Responsibility for our environment, and the culture that breeds the types of humans that will arise from generations to come. Responsibility for the actions we take, and the consequences of those actions.


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## Zaehet Strife (Jun 5, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> How is a disruption in normal brain function evidence for Jesus?
> 
> NDE's are nothing new, and very few people actually report seeing heaven or hell specifically. Some see flames, some see a bright light, some float above their body, some review moments from thier life, some float through a foggy tunnel, some hear buzzing and tones, some see relatives, both dead and alive... the list is actually pretty big, and none of these happen within the same experience. What's more interesting is the staggering number of people who come near death and do not experience anything. I guess most of us do not get to go either place.
> 
> If you are going to be impressed by the similarities in the stories, then you must acknowledge that other experiences humans have are almost identical. Divers or pilots experiencing rapid pressure change, people taking LSD, people fasting for long periods, people who are dreaming, and people suffering from schizophrenia all have NDE's that have nothing to do with death. The common thread is altered brain function.


If anyone wants to get an eerie feeling, or freaked out. Check out the similarities in "night terrors/sleep paralysis" when i was 17 years old i had episodes every night for about 3 weeks until i made up my mind and conquered the fear, and ive never had them since. But man, what the fuck? Demons really? Im thinking the similarities are caused by demons being a humans worst fear, from the indoctrination or just the ideas of a "hell" and dead beings being in our subconscious. But the truth is... (as i say for most every case) the truth is, i just don't know. Not enough evidence.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 5, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> If anyone wants to get an eerie feeling, or freaked out. Check out the similarities in "night terrors/sleep paralysis" when i was 17 years old i had episodes every night for about 3 weeks until i made up my mind and conquered the fear, and ive never had them since. But man, what the fuck? Demons really? Im thinking the similarities are caused by demons being a humans worst fear, from the indoctrination or just the ideas of a "hell" and dead beings being in our subconscious. But the truth is... (as i say for most every case) the truth is, i just don't know. Not enough evidence.


i hate to try to simplify things, but dimethytryptamine will show you thing about yourself you may not want to know. your worst fears could be shown if your in the wrong state of mind, such as demons, hell, etc. these are all things in the depths of your imagination, your pinneal gland is just to doorway to these visions. if your end goal in life was to get to heaven, you may see the light at the end of the tunnel that all christians claim to see when they undergo a near death experience. dreams and other visions seen by your mind already exist in your mind, remember we use a very small percentage of our brains, some other parts become active when dimethytryptamine is introduced to it. theres an explanation for all the things you see, your the only one who knows the answers since they were drawn from your memory, or rather your imagination. when you were 17, was there anything negative that may have happened prior to these night terrors? perhaps the death of a loved one, or a something really traumatic that may have taken place?


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## Heisenberg (Jun 5, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> remember we use a very small percentage of our brains


I realize this is out of context, but you may want to research what an evolutionist or a neuroscientist has to say about that.


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## eye exaggerate (Jun 5, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> I realize this is out of context, but you may want to research what an evolutionist or a neuroscientist has to say about that.


...I had an interesting visit with a neuroscientist once. I bled, we laughed, it was the start of a 15 minute talk on the functions of the brain. He felt that certain people were able to use more of the brain than others. Biblically (and mostly metaphysically speaking) the 24 elders of revelation point to this. Here's an example of what I mean.

"humans actually have three different dimensions of human awareness: the conscious mind (personality, the subconscious mind (soul) and the superconscious mind (spirit). An important goal in everyone's life is to awaken our superconscious mind to attain at-one-ment with God." - Cayce

When a person does not follow, in the blind sense, that person can dig and benefit from it, imo.


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## Zaehet Strife (Jun 5, 2012)

I don't know man, i think you should google night terrors or sleep paralysis. I dont know much about the worst inherent fear in humans, i guess it would be death, or maybe pain... but maybe its more than that. Maybe when introduced to ideas of demons this automatically gets put into our brains as (most feared thing) for us. As demons are the only "evil" beings we represent with surviving death, or existing after it, or meeting us there. Already dead beings, or devils... as everyone who has ever experienced night terrors can empathize with the unmovable unshakable intense feeling of dread and evil. The inability to talk or move anything but your eyes. 

I really cant say what it is, personally... i think the similarities have everything to do with the most feared idea that humans have, or brings out the fears that we have the most, if the latter is the case, there must be many MANY out there who consider the idea of evil "dead" beings our subconscious's worst fear. 

Here's a copy:
Over the centuries, symptoms of sleep paralysis have been described in many ways and often attributed to an "evil" presence: unseen night demons in ancient times, the old hag in Shakespeare's _Romeo and Juliet_, and alien abductors. Almost every culture throughout history has had stories of shadowy evil creatures that terrify helpless humans at night. People have long sought explanations for this mysterious sleep-time paralysis and the accompanying feelings of terror.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 5, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> I don't know man, i think you should google night terrors or sleep paralysis. I dont know much about the worst inherent fear in humans, i guess it would be death, or maybe pain... but maybe its more than that. Maybe when introduced to ideas of demons this automatically gets put into our brains as (most feared thing) for us. As demons are the only "evil" beings we represent with surviving death, or existing after it, or meeting us there. Already dead beings, or devils... as everyone who has ever experienced night terrors can empathize with the unmovable unshakable intense feeling of dread and evil. The inability to talk or move anything but your eyes.
> 
> I really cant say what it is, personally... i think the similarities have everything to do with the most feared idea that humans have, or brings out the fears that we have the most, if the latter is the case, there must be many MANY out there who consider the idea of evil "dead" beings our subconscious's worst fear.
> 
> ...


its interesting how we all have a mutual fear, i wonder if this would still occur if one was stripped of all prior culture. death is the biggest fear of man id expect, those who can live after death are probably even more horrifying to us, as theres nothing worse that could happen to these beings. ive had nightmares but i feel as if they were all about things i had heard prior, for example, i watched the texas chainsaw massacre and dreamed about being chased by a man with a chainsaw. i believe its all to blame on culture, if these things existed in our mind from the beginning, i believe everyone would be a lot more traumatized. although every culture seems to have some form of evil, i wonder how this all started.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 5, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> I realize this is out of context, but you may want to research what an evolutionist or a neuroscientist has to say about that.


im on it, do you have any suggestions on where i should start? links would be highly appreciated, thanks again heisenburg.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 5, 2012)

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/reviving-the-10-brain-myth/


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## crazyhazey (Jun 5, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/reviving-the-10-brain-myth/


interesting stuff, thanks for the info. makes sense although, different parts of our brain do have serve purposes, this i am aware of, but all of it cannot process at the same time. thats fascinating really, our brain has to be the most complex organ in nature.

and once again, i find myself unable to give rep when i really feel the need to. 

*

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Heisenberg again.





*


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## Zaehet Strife (Jun 6, 2012)

Hazey, just the other day i got pretty baked, some really nice sensi buds... and i was riding in the passenger seat looking at how beautiful and mystical the sky and clouds look as the sun rays peer down from above, and i wondered what the fuck i would be thinking right now if i had never been introduced to religion or science at all. I wonder if i would make up my own ideas about what this all is, or would i just not care and continue to live in the moment every day. I think this was a good thought.

I remember thinking, man... if i knew nothing of science or religion, i bet i would make up some pretty cool stories about what those big white puff balls in the sky are... i might even imagine there are creatures living up there.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 6, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Hazey, just the other day i got pretty baked, some really nice sensi buds... and i was riding in the passenger seat looking at how beautiful and mystical the sky and clouds look as the sun rays peer down from above, and i wondered what the fuck i would be thinking right now if i had never been introduced to religion or science at all. I wonder if i would make up my own ideas about what this all is, or would i just not care and continue to live in the moment every day. I think this was a good thought.
> 
> I remember thinking, man... if i knew nothing of science or religion, i bet i would make up some pretty cool stories about what those big white puff balls in the sky are... i might even imagine there are creatures living up there.


its truly amazing to experience life without culture, just look at how a newborn baby looks at the sky. i think all of us would theorize many things to attempt to describe all of these beautiful things, but we've finally come to an age where we can know why these things happen. however i believe through the use of drugs like cannabis, DMT, or Psycholobin(i think i spelled that wrong), we can see things without these outside influences, if only for a second. i think thats what you experienced, ive found myself thinking the same thing after smoking a bowl of weed with some dmt sprinkled on top while stargazing, just how beautiful life is and how we let science simplify them. its amazing really, i dont know how to explain the feeling. i feel astonishment would fit it, but its something much more than that. maybe you could call it "overwhelmed by the beauty of nature". i see how this may lead to the feeling of a higher being, many cultures displayed this with the creation of religion. however the buddhists thought of it differently, and most of them knew how to make their minds access their pinneal glands through meditation. i feel as if they would know what life is without culture, they are truly one with nature.


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## Kronika (Jun 7, 2012)

It depends on how one chooses to define God. If we're talking about some omnipresent being who lovingly handcrafted us, guides us and takes an interest in our well-being, I would have to say I'm an Atheist. I find the idea of some higher power watching over us from above, handing down rules and regulations, praise and condemnation as something that humans have conjured up as kind of a security blanket. We raise our children, we teach them and love them and we want, sometimes _need,_ to believe that someone other than our own parents have our best interests at heart and love us as we love our kids. I think without that feeling of parental guidance and care humans feel lost and alone. I think that personal belief system also fills a need for us to somehow dodge responsibility for our own actions. Something good happens and we give thanks to God. Something bad happens and it's the work of the devil.

Now, if we're talking about God as simply the act of creation I would consider myself a Pantheist. I believe in the almighty molecule, the atom, the particle, the big bang. Can I prove that some anthropomorphic God didn't wave a magic wand around and trigger the birth of the universe? No, I can't. It's possible we're simply a product of a random roll of the dice. I can tell you that with two years of advanced physics under my belt I've felt closer to the concept of God in a classroom than I ever did in any church.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 7, 2012)

Kronika said:


> It depends on how one chooses to define God. If we're talking about some omnipresent being who lovingly handcrafted us, guides us and takes an interest in our well-being, I would have to say I'm an Atheist. I find the idea of some higher power watching over us from above, handing down rules and regulations, praise and condemnation as something that humans have conjured up as kind of a security blanket. We raise our children, we teach them and love them and we want, sometimes _need,_ to believe that someone other than our own parents have our best interests at heart and love us as we love our kids. I think without that feeling of parental guidance and care humans feel lost and alone. I think that personal belief system also fills a need for us to somehow dodge responsibility for our own actions. Something good happens and we give thanks to God. Something bad happens and it's the work of the devil.
> 
> Now, if we're talking about God as simply the act of creation I would consider myself a Pantheist. I believe in the almighty molecule, the atom, the particle, the big bang. Can I prove that some anthropomorphic God didn't wave a magic wand around and trigger the birth of the universe? No, I can't. It's possible we're simply a product of a random roll of the dice. I can tell you that with two years of advanced physics under my belt I've felt closer to the concept of God in a classroom than I ever did in any church.


exactly how i feel honestly, the idea of god is just a way to feel as if someones watching over you. everything youve said basically sums up how i feel about religion and the existence of a higher being.


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## Kronika (Jun 7, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> exactly how i feel honestly, the idea of god is just a way to feel as if someones watching over you. everything youve said basically sums up how i feel about religion and the existence of a higher being.


I can see the appeal of it.. I mean hell, we all want to feel special and loved. But I don't believe that way of religious thinking holds much merit. I'm a speck on a speck floating in a vast sea of specks and I'm okay with that. I think everyone else could be too if they opened their eyes.

Btw, your avatar is rockin. And you're a fellow Floridian too!


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## eye exaggerate (Jun 7, 2012)

Kronika said:


> It depends on how one chooses to define God. If we're talking about some omnipresent being who lovingly handcrafted us, guides us and takes an interest in our well-being, I would have to say I'm an Atheist. I find the idea of some higher power watching over us from above, handing down rules and regulations, praise and condemnation as something that humans have conjured up as kind of a security blanket. We raise our children, we teach them and love them and we want, sometimes _need,_ to believe that someone other than our own parents have our best interests at heart and love us as we love our kids. I think without that feeling of parental guidance and care humans feel lost and alone. I think that personal belief system also fills a need for us to somehow dodge responsibility for our own actions. Something good happens and we give thanks to God. Something bad happens and it's the work of the devil.
> 
> Now, if we're talking about God as simply the act of creation I would consider myself a Pantheist. I believe in the almighty molecule, the atom, the particle, the big bang. Can I prove that some anthropomorphic God didn't wave a magic wand around and trigger the birth of the universe? No, I can't. It's possible we're simply a product of a random roll of the dice. I can tell you that with two years of advanced physics under my belt I've felt closer to the concept of God in a classroom than I ever did in any church.


...have you read anything on panentheism?


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## dc4 (Jun 7, 2012)

I do believe that there's something more than what has been proven, I don't believe that god is like a person or a being, I think that God is an idea. Idea that can change your life no matter if you truly understand it's meaning. You see, people need something to believe in, not everyone but alot of them need it, they need some purpose to fulfill. I have a relative, that was alright, then he got sick, could say he almost died, then he started praying, going to church, believing, and he got better. 
He waited for help, and he helped himself, through the idea of god. Think about the bible, such and old book, with alot of hidden truth. Even if there is no "god", the person who wrote the book was a genius. There are many thoughts about the world, the universe that have only been proven now. How could people know it then? 
End of my post


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## crazyhazey (Jun 7, 2012)

Kronika said:


> I can see the appeal of it.. I mean hell, we all want to feel special and loved. But I don't believe that way of religious thinking holds much merit. I'm a speck on a speck floating in a vast sea of specks and I'm okay with that. I think everyone else could be too if they opened their eyes.
> 
> Btw, your avatar is rockin. And you're a fellow Floridian too!


yeah, i think someone from a broken family would really seek a higher being and turn to religion. and that it doesnt, religion has no science behind it really just, just a set of beliefs given by someone who was believe to be more enlightened, nothing could really be solved when thinking religiously. and i also find it to be fine, almost comforting, to know were just floating through life with no real goal, all we know thats gonna happen for sure is death, but all that means is everyday is gonna differ from the last and we never know whats coming ahead. that excites me, but seems to really scare others. i just cant see myself believe in an after life either, those who do dont look forward to living a meaningful life at all, rather revolving their lives around gaining access to this "VIP section" in the sky, if that doesn't sound like a scam then i dont know what does.

and thanks, those are words i live by lol. and yup, im right in the middle of this shit, next to disney world and all that other shit tourist seem to love so much. gotta love the asshole cops and rascist old people.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 7, 2012)

dc4 said:


> I do believe that there's something more than what has been proven, I don't believe that god is like a person or a being, I think that God is an idea. Idea that can change your life no matter if you truly understand it's meaning. You see, people need something to believe in, not everyone but alot of them need it, they need some purpose to fulfill. I have a relative, that was alright, then he got sick, could say he almost died, then he started praying, going to church, believing, and he got better.
> He waited for help, and he helped himself, through the idea of god. Think about the bible, such and old book, with alot of hidden truth. Even if there is no "god", the person who wrote the book was a genius. There are many thoughts about the world, the universe that have only been proven now. How could people know it then?
> End of my post


scroll down to post #112, im pretty sure its the only video on here but thats the closest thing id call god, or some sort of creator. who created this magnificent thing, who knows, possibly it created itself somehow. its cool that he got better, a little bit of hope can go pretty far but we shouldnt need religion to inspire us to keep going with life, we all have a purpose, you shouldnt let the church take your limited life and call that your purpose. the worse thing you could do while theres so much going on in our world is go somewhere that restricts outside thinking, better yet they look down on outside thinking. they want you to thank someone you dont know for things you had before you knew of him, thanking someone for your whole life isnt purpose to me, thats a waste. go help the people who need help, prayin aint gonna do shit. 
i wish people would stop thanking god for their meals, if i said grace before any of my meals it would go somethin like this, 
"get the fuck out of my dining room and go help the kid that has cancer down the street". like kronika said, when something good happens, god did it, when something bad happens, its the work of the devil. its all bullshit, and its all for power and money. our government has let it really dig in to our everyday lives, our culture has many dominantly christian attributes unfortunately. but im getting off track, many people wrote that book, and altered it. yes, there are some morals, even ill admit that, though nothing you couldnt learn from any other book or rather by experiencing life. treat ones how you would like to be treated is all common sense, id rather treat someone better than theyd treat me to be honest, yet im no theist. they only made religion because some people wanted answers, we have the answers now yet we still use this prehistoric bullshit to live by, they even killed people for disproving them. thats just misuse of power, if jesus did exist and he came back, he would be ashamed of the church.


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## dc4 (Jun 7, 2012)

I agree with you, and i hate the type of people thanking for everything. I once even helped alot someone like that, and after all that they said: Thank god he sent you here. Damn, he didn't send me, I helped because I wanted to be a good person. It was annoying as fuck.
I don't need religion to motivate myself, but people are weak, you know? 
And how can the people in church say that they are " closer to the god " and that we can " talk to god through them" ? Dafuq is all that bullshit?
People believe because they want answers, but i think that religion was made by those who wanted to control others, make them stay away from thinking for themselves.
hazey, but do you actually know that there are texts in the bible that prove facts about universe that were discovered only a few years ago? I wasn't talking about "be nice and people will be nice to you" - things. Tho i can't recall what theories and stuff are in there, oh believe me they are. 


Edit: The universe is amazing. It's like a toy that I would never throw away. (about that nebula video) - But if these things are light years away, what we are seeing is what was happening a long time ago.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 7, 2012)

dc4 said:


> I agree with you, and i hate the type of people thanking for everything. I once even helped alot someone like that, and after all that they said: Thank god he sent you here. Damn, he didn't send me, I helped because I wanted to be a good person. It was annoying as fuck.
> I don't need religion to motivate myself, but people are weak, you know?
> And how can the people in church say that they are " closer to the god " and that we can " talk to god through them" ? Dafuq is all that bullshit?
> People believe because they want answers, but i think that religion was made by those who wanted to control others, make them stay away from thinking for themselves.
> ...


you see what im saying, im glad you know religion is more of a crutch than anything. and i guess, all depends how you interpret it. if they said something on point, rather than being extremely vague(leaving your interpretation to lets say, fill in the blanks) i would believe it. im pretty sure that nebula's still goin, may have to do some research but im pretty sure it, or something like it is out there, if thats happening at all, in our vast universe it must be happening in more than one place, you know? if that thing is dead by now, or nonexistent would be a better word, theres no doubt theres another out there. its truly amazing to know thats happening though, if that was mentioned in the bible, i may actually look into it.


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## Dislexicmidget2021 (Jun 7, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> its interesting how we all have a mutual fear, i wonder if this would still occur if one was stripped of all prior culture. death is the biggest fear of man id expect, those who can live after death are probably even more horrifying to us, as theres nothing worse that could happen to these beings. ive had nightmares but i feel as if they were all about things i had heard prior, for example, i watched the texas chainsaw massacre and dreamed about being chased by a man with a chainsaw. i believe its all to blame on culture, if these things existed in our mind from the beginning, i believe everyone would be a lot more traumatized. although every culture seems to have some form of evil, i wonder how this all started.


perhaps from the earliest times of humankind it could stem from primal fears,before we had the contextual evil in which we could put base images in the subjective manner we have had for thousands of years now,there had to be the fight or flight mechanism which if a human survived a traumatic experience the worst fears come through the mind like being eaten alive by a huge bear,or being mawed to death by lions,bitten by snakes etc,I speak of the hunter/gatherer era because thats as far back before actual culture started becoming prevailent,I could be wrong though,but my point is, is that could have been the start of elder surviving people determining these things to be evils when they happened,In a more than likely manner they were reveared for their experiences and advice to the younger people in those tribes,so it could be plausible as a beginning of commonly perceived evil.Just my 2 cents though.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 7, 2012)

Dislexicmidget2021 said:


> perhaps from the earliest times of humankind it could stem from primal fears,before we had the contextual evil in which we could put base images in the subjective manner we have had for thousands of years now,there had to be the fight or flight mechanism which if a human survived a traumatic experience the worst fears come through the mind like being eaten alive by a huge bear,or being mawed to death by lions,bitten by snakes etc,I speak of the hunter/gatherer era because thats as far back before actual culture started becoming prevailent,I could be wrong though,but my point is, is that could have been the start of elder surviving people determining these things to be evils when they happened,In a more than likely manner they were reveared for their experiences and advice to the younger people in those tribes,so it could be plausible as a beginning of commonly perceived evil.Just my 2 cents though.


yes, i believe any type of death is going to be perceived as evil really, theres other scenarios however some may not find explainable. being afraid of a predator is just an adaptation, means of survival. im speaking of demons, abnormalities, etc. i dont think we would see these things depending on our imagination probably. our mind does think out many scenarios however, so anything could be possible. i suppose this is also the reason for things like ESP, or deja-vu.


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## Kronika (Jun 7, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...have you read anything on panentheism?


Not to any significant degree I'm afraid. I do know that pantheism and panentheism run parallel to one another up to a point, with the major difference being that panentheists recognize God as also being separate from the universe and not just of it. It loses me there.


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## cannabineer (Jun 7, 2012)

Kronika said:


> Not to any significant degree I'm afraid. I do know that pantheism and panentheism run parallel to one another up to a point, with the major difference being that panentheists recognize God as also being separate from the universe and not just of it. It loses me there.


Don't get your pantheists in a bunch.  cn


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## eye exaggerate (Jun 7, 2012)

Kronika said:


> Not to any significant degree I'm afraid. I do know that pantheism and panentheism run parallel to one another up to a point, with the major difference being that panentheists recognize God as also being separate from the universe and not just of it. It loses me there.


...thanks for the reply. It's interesting that mainstream christians are taught to 'be in the world but not of it'.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 7, 2012)

Kronika said:


> Not to any significant degree I'm afraid. I do know that pantheism and panentheism run parallel to one another up to a point, with the major difference being that panentheists recognize God as also being separate from the universe and not just of it. It loses me there.


If you think of that line as defining atheism from deism, you'll be less confused. The confusion comes from the pretense of pantheism to be more than it is.


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## danny5467 (Jun 24, 2012)

im trying to remember when i had faith or believed in god but i cant i never have . ive had times when i wanted to belive i wanted to go and tell a priest of the bad things ive done and clear my mind, but i got over them any way with out the help of god, i learned about the ego and how it manifests itself in religion, i dont care to much for that either i think the human race couldnt survive without a reason to explain why some things happens, its like they need it to cope. at this point in my life i dont believe in religion i dont believe there is an answer to why we are here. i used to go to church every sunday when i was younger but i was constantly numb then anyway in my own little world. i was raised buy my irish/scotish grandparents who were strictly religius and i learnd that if i do wrong i will feel bad not because of god but because of the feeling of guilt that was instiled in me but now i know that guilt is just a feeling and it goes away, its not god its part of being human. 
do people only want to be part of a group or religion to socialise ? i dont no, i do no that people will kill each other over religion thats been proven, catholic prodestant for example but even then they had other motives the religion was just a way of grouping together right? 
i know that if i do help some one if they need it, it makes me feel good but that again is just a feeling, if a situation arose were i had a chance to help some one and i never, i would not feel that god would punish me for it.
i just had a though, why are we the only species on earth that has evolved this way. could this be a way of evoling and our brains have not adapted to it yet so there is a gap wich we havnt figured out yet ?
how can you say it is better to abort a child than foster it i know i would not be alive today if that was true


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## 420IAMthatIAM (Jul 4, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> title says it all, im just curious how people can look into ancient text and find their purpose in life? especially since most of these books go by life thousands of years ago. most of you also cherry pick the books you live by also, but why only live by some words and not the others? if these people made this book and you completely take their word without any of their proof, doesnt it defeat the purpose when you reject on fallacy but accept another? how do you go about judging what is morally right in the books you live by, when you base your morals on said book?
> 
> also, has anyone ever taken into account, when someone believe they spoke to "god" or some other "higher being", do you ever wonder if this person may have been schizophrenic? possibly even on drugs, or maybe just dreaming? how do you live by the words of something that has no proof, and ignore something that shows evidence of proof like science?
> 
> ...


I base mine on experince...and i do cherry pick..from tree to tree,[religion to religion].


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## Doer (Jul 4, 2012)

The thing is we don't have to take anyone's word or teaching. We don't need signs and wonders to force us to believe. We don't have to believe anything.


That's the freedom or salvation or enlightenment, whatever they call it.


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