# Light distance at professional facilities



## Arcadio (Apr 1, 2016)

Hey people, I have done a ton of reading and general research when it comes to all aspects of indoor growing and I'm happy with most of my knowledge and beliefs but I have recently come across a contradiction. Here it is,

I have always believed that it's best to keep your lights (MH and/or HPS) as close as possible (without heat stressing your plants). I have found that with good airflow, between canopy and bulb, as well as a fan pointed at the bulb itself allows the lights to be very close to the canopy, about 8-10 inches for a 600W MH and the leaf temp stays in perfect range around 78F.
I have read in many places that this is ideal since having the lights closer to the plants means more intensity and deeper penetration. Given that the plants are at ideal temps this should be the best way to go unless the high light intensity is too much hence not optimal. Most setups that I've seen try to keep the lights as close as possible and they seem to do very well. I do understand that as plants get bigger you need to sacrifice intensity for coverage but let's just consider the stages where you can keep your light/s very close without worrying about coverage, i.e. early/mid veg.

Here's the thing though, all the professional grow facilities that I have seen on videos that are in big warehouses with hundreds of plants, always keep the lights ridiculously far away from the plants, like 3 or 4 feet. And they do very very well. Why do they keep the lights so far away. I know that there are heaps of lights in these setups. Is this the reason why? So that the lights all create more coverage and they all sort of share the lights.

So in a small setup with only 1 or 2 lights, should you keep the lights as close as possible or keep a good distance? I saw a video on youtube on the "Grow Boss" channel and he shows you a small single light setup (400W MH in veg) with the light not even close and he says its way too close and its harming the plants and making them "miniaturize", then he moves it up to about 2 feet and says this will solve the problem. Here's the video. Start at 4:20 and just watch for about a minute to see what I mean.






This really made me wonder but I don't believe he is right. I have done a few grows in the past using 600W MH for veg and I kept the light nice and close like 8-10 inches with good air flow as I said earlier. I had very healthy fast growing bushy plants (nothing like the twig weeds in that video lmfao).
I believe that the plants were able to utilize the high light intensity. Seeing this guy raise a 400W MH that far up trips me out, and he's saying that this is the key to making those shitty plants less shitty. It really makes me think that although he may be wrong, perhaps I am also wrong and the right answer is somewhere in between.

My philosophy is that our beloved plants are able to soak up massive amounts of light and the more you can give them (within reason) without heat stressing them the better. Their philosophy is that HID lighting is ultra powerful so you need to tread with caution and keep the light a mile away.

I've used a light meter to measure the sun on the middle of a clear summer day and it read over 120 000 lux. I used the same meter to measure a 600W MH from 8 inches and it was well under 100 000. Furthermore the sun gives the same light intensity to the top of a 300 ft tree as it does to the ground. So that is one very powerful light they have evolved with. I know that indoor lights are kept on for much longer and they don't vary with weather but still the sun is a fair bit more powerful than even a 1000W HID at 12 inches in terms of intensity, penetration and bandwidth and it contains much more high energy radiation such as UVB which is more harmful for living organisms.

What do you guys think? I know that the professional warehouse grows have heaps of lights. Is this what justifies the lights being raised so high for them?
And what about small setups what are your thoughts on that? Is it best to keep the lights as close as possible to get better penetration and higher intensity?

Do you agree with the "Grow Boss" that its best to keep your light waaayyyyy above your plant, 2ft for a 400W MH and who knows how far up he would raise a 600W MH. Would you really keep your light that far away throughout veg? Wouldn't you get a lot more stretch and less vigorous growth?
In my opinion, that light was too far away to begin with. Even if it was a 600W MH, (much hotter and brighter than a 400W MH) I would be moving that light down a few inches to try and get light intensity up closer to what the sun can give. And what about if you're supplementing CO2, can't they use even more light than what the sun can provide?

I don't know but it's my gut feeling that a single 400W light at 2 feet isn't the way I'd want to be growing if I were a plant. I think I'd be wishing the light was closer.


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## BobCajun (Apr 1, 2016)

Arcadio said:


> Hey people, I have done a ton of reading and general research when it comes to all aspects of indoor growing and I'm happy with most of my knowledge and beliefs but I have recently come across a contradiction. Here it is,
> 
> I have always believed that it's best to keep your lights (MH and/or HPS) as close as possible (without heat stressing your plants). I have found that with good airflow, between canopy and bulb, as well as a fan pointed at the bulb itself allows the lights to be very close to the canopy, about 8-10 inches for a 600W MH and the leaf temp stays in perfect range around 78F.
> I have read in many places that this is ideal since having the lights closer to the plants means more intensity and deeper penetration. Given that the plants are at ideal temps this should be the best way to go unless the high light intensity is too much hence not optimal. Most setups that I've seen try to keep the lights as close as possible and they seem to do very well. I do understand that as plants get bigger you need to sacrifice intensity for coverage but let's just consider the stages where you can keep your light/s very close without worrying about coverage, i.e. early/mid veg.
> ...


But this OTHER video says closer is better. So what can you do, right?


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## RM3 (Apr 1, 2016)

For years my pet peeve has been growers crammin light up the plants ass without understanding that light is simply just one of the elements that needs to be dialed in.

Folks are always amazed at what I accomplish using T5's to flower and I keep em 2 feet off the canopy. The reason you see commercial lights so high up is they understand this.

This bud is is the the bottom branch of a plant that is over 3 feet away from the nearest T5 bulb 
.


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## RM3 (Apr 1, 2016)

Here is what the top looked like 
.


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## RM3 (Apr 1, 2016)

Oh and that strap holding it up was added after if got so big it fell over 
.


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## BobCajun (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Here is what the top looked like


Ever try using pure red and blue T5s? I don't know what's available but I found this. I would think it would be more efficient to use 3 red/ 1 blue than the various shades of white. Maybe not, but in theory. Or maybe just adding a few reds to the whites.


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## RM3 (Apr 1, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> Ever try using pure red and blue T5s? I don't know what's available but I found this little red one. I would think it would be more efficient to use 3 red/ 1 blue than the various shades of white. Maybe not, but in theory.


I have tested many bulbs and I mix em to give a complete spectrum I even have 3 UV bulbs in there. I like more deep blue than red because it increases tric production so I run 9 deep blue with 6 reds + the 3 UV's makes 18 bulbs which = roughly 1000 watts


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## BobCajun (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I have tested many bulbs and I mix em to give a complete spectrum I even have 3 UV bulbs in there. I like more deep blue than red because it increases tric production so I run 9 deep blue with 6 reds + the 3 UV's makes 18 bulbs which = roughly 1000 watts


Oh, I thought it was like warm whites and daylights. Interesting that blue makes more trics. So did you find that pure red and blue gave better yields than warm whites, for instance?


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## jafro daweedhound (Apr 1, 2016)

I don't know but it's my gut feeling that a single 400W light at 2 feet isn't the way I'd want to be growing if I were a plant. I think I'd be wishing the light was closer.[/QUOTE]

I have found that some strains will taste bitter if too close to the light while lower branches on the same pant taste the way they should.


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## RM3 (Apr 1, 2016)

Sometimes they grow into the lights lol
.


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## BobCajun (Apr 1, 2016)

jafro daweedhound said:


> I have found that some strains will taste bitter if too close to the light while lower branches on the same pant taste the way they should.


Yeah buds too close to lights get very dry and woody. If there was a way to put a double layered glass sheet over the plants and pump water through the space between them, it would absorb all the IR. I guess a water cooled lamp would never pass safety regs though.


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## RM3 (Apr 1, 2016)

I have tried to help new growers understand how to better use light for years, even have a thread on it in my sig. Most don't listen, it is what it is, but they do like my pics of 20 inch colas  
.


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

Can any one tell me what this means in simpel english please (miniaturize) does it mean that they get smaller?


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> For years my pet peeve has been growers crammin light up the plants ass without understanding that light is simply just one of the elements that needs to be dialed in.
> 
> Folks are always amazed at what I accomplish using T5's to flower and I keep em 2 feet off the canopy. The reason you see commercial lights so high up is they understand this.
> 
> ...


Any branch will still give buds even if its not getting direct light, but is it gonna be the same like the upper buds؟? Offcourse NOT!

Warehouses using the manfacture recommendations, they know there shit! They made it, they tested it and they know what is the best distance from the canobay.

Check gavita website they till you the best distance for each structure accoeding to thier tests.

Long short stoy, I wouldnt liesten to this maffo look how his plants are stretchy and looking shit.

I doubt that he even get a good yield!

I would let my lights get best of both. as much possible distance and coverge.

If am able to have 1000w 1 inch above my plants ill simply do it if I can have the whole plant and bud locations exposed to light!

When I bend a stem or remove a fan leaves that are blocking the light on some tops, those tops grow big in NO time!

I wouldnt liesten to this guy and if I got a big commercial grow 10k plus ill take the manfacture advise for sure in mind!


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## Jimdamick (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Sometimes they grow into the lights lol
> .
> View attachment 3647005


Very nice system, but your average grower ain't going to go there, setting up a system like yours, relying on t5's.
I have used them for years, and those you can literally put on top of your plants (not VHO), and get good results.


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I have tried to help new growers understand how to better use light for years, even have a thread on it in my sig. Most don't listen, it is what it is, but they do like my pics of 20 inch colas
> .
> View attachment 3647008


Nice panorma! 

Oh if i can make that with hps


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## RM3 (Apr 1, 2016)

Jimdamick said:


> Very nice system, but your average grower ain't going to go there, setting up a system like yours, relying on t5's.
> I have used them for years, and those you can literally put on top of your plants (not VHO), and get good results.


Totally understand that, but my point is, if I can do this with T5's imagine what you could do if only you learned to dial in all the elements not just light ???


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## RM3 (Apr 1, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> I wouldnt liesten to this maffo


I already said that most don't listen to me LOL


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## Alexander Supertramp (Apr 1, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Any branch will still give buds even if its not getting direct light, but is it gonna be the same like the upper buds؟? Offcourse NOT!
> 
> Warehouses using the manfacture recommendations, they know there shit! They made it, they tested it and they know what is the best distance from the canobay.
> 
> ...


Dude Riddle knows more about cannabis than most. His shit is some serious fire. Most of you following cannabis forum myth would do yourselves a favor by listening to him.


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I already said that most don't listen to me LOL


Sorry, couldnt stop my self  lool


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

Can any body still tell me what miniaturize in simpel engliah mean? 

Sorry am not native!


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## Alexander Supertramp (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Totally understand that, but my point is, if I can do this with T5's imagine what you could do if only you learned to dial in all the elements not just light ???





RM3 said:


> I already said that most don't listen to me LOL


My late brother had mad respect for you. And that tells me a lot. Because he was a cannabis master himself.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Apr 1, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Can any body still tell me what miniaturize in simpel engliah mean?
> 
> Sorry am not native!


To make something smaller.


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## RM3 (Apr 1, 2016)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> My late brother had mad respect for you. And that tells me a lot. Because he was a cannabis master himself.


Greg ?


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> To make something smaller.



Smaller means more light pentration, more compact buds more light exposure so am happy with that ! 

Thank you for clarification.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Greg ?


Yeppers. I figured you would remember him.


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## RM3 (Apr 1, 2016)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Yeppers. I figured you would remember him.


Miss him dearly !!!


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> For years my pet peeve has been growers crammin light up the plants ass without understanding that light is simply just one of the elements that needs to be dialed in.
> 
> Folks are always amazed at what I accomplish using T5's to flower and I keep em 2 feet off the canopy. The reason you see commercial lights so high up is they understand this.
> 
> ...


No offinse but that is popcorn bud to me, I wouldnt even smoke that, except if its my last stach!


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## Jimdamick (Apr 1, 2016)

Arcadio said:


> Hey people, I have done a ton of reading and general research when it comes to all aspects of indoor growing and I'm happy with most of my knowledge and beliefs but I have recently come across a contradiction. Here it is,
> 
> I have always believed that it's best to keep your lights (MH and/or HPS) as close as possible (without heat stressing your plants). I have found that with good airflow, between canopy and bulb, as well as a fan pointed at the bulb itself allows the lights to be very close to the canopy, about 8-10 inches for a 600W MH and the leaf temp stays in perfect range around 78F.
> I have read in many places that this is ideal since having the lights closer to the plants means more intensity and deeper penetration. Given that the plants are at ideal temps this should be the best way to go unless the high light intensity is too much hence not optimal. Most setups that I've seen try to keep the lights as close as possible and they seem to do very well. I do understand that as plants get bigger you need to sacrifice intensity for coverage but let's just consider the stages where you can keep your light/s very close without worrying about coverage, i.e. early/mid veg.
> ...


Put a thermometer at 12" under ANY HID light, with a new bulb, and if it is below 100 degrees, I'll show you a picture of my dick (and get banned).
There is no reason at all to have a HID fixture closer than 2 feet, as the loss of lumens is negligible, the spread gets lost, and the heat will definitely fuck your plant. I keep my LED's 2' away due to the intensity of the light as it WILL bleach your top bud, guaranteed, and my MH/HPS never get closer than 32". It is just better for the plant, as they just want light, and it really doesn't have to be that intense to do a good job in a small area.. Ever seen good grows just using CFL"s?. Sure you have, and that should prove my point.


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## RM3 (Apr 1, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> No offinse but that is popcorn bud to me, I wouldnt even smoke that, except if its my last stach!


That bud was actually bigger than a bic lighter, but what ever lol


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## Alexander Supertramp (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Miss him dearly !!!


Thanks. We all do for sure.


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> That bud was actually bigger than a bic lighter, but what ever lol


Exactly and after drying in will be like a pencil!


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

Jimdamick said:


> Put a thermometer at 12" under ANY HID light, with a new bulb, and if it is below 100 degrees, I'll show you a picture of my dick (and get banned).
> There is no reason at all to have a HID fixture closer than 2 feet, as the loss of lumens is negligible, the spread gets lost, and the heat will definitely fuck your plant. I keep my LED's 2' away due to the intensity of the light as it WILL bleach your top bud, guaranteed, and my MH/HPS never get closer than 32". It is just better for the plant, as they just want light, and it really doesn't have to be that intense to do a good job in a small area.. Ever seen good grows just using CFL"s?. Sure you have, and that should prove my point.



I dont disagree!

Every thing you mention is correct!

What I mean to say is get best of the two worlds.

Coverge plus diatance.

Heat would be the probleem 

But if the bud bleashes.

Then ill sell if for higher price where I live as ot will be unique like purple buds


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## Alexander Supertramp (Apr 1, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> No offinse but that is popcorn bud to me, I wouldnt even smoke that, except if its my last stach!


No offense, but you obviously know little about what really makes plants tic. You are just selling yourself short by following forum myth and practices.


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> No offense, but you obviously know little about what really makes plants tic. You are just selling yourself short by following forum myth and practices.


No offense what so ever!! 

But am not the one who go against the majority.. 

And am also not a cow, I have brain and logic and I can see for my self!


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## Alexander Supertramp (Apr 1, 2016)

Folks like Riddle and myself enjoy watching folks smoke our bud for the first time. The look on their faces is priceless, right as they hit the floor!


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## RM3 (Apr 1, 2016)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Folks like Riddle and myself enjoy watching folks smoke our bud for the first time. The look on their faces is priceless, right as they hit the floor!


Yeppers, I love that part


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Yeppers, I love that part


Well am glad if it works for you guys!


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## Alexander Supertramp (Apr 1, 2016)

I am renewing my brothers Querkle Rain project Riddle. Hoping to end up with a stabilized purple with some kick. Hoping introducing Black Widow into the fold will up potency.


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## RM3 (Apr 1, 2016)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> I am renewing my brothers Querkle Rain project Riddle. Hoping to end up with a stabilized purple with some kick. Hoping introducing Black Widow into the fold will up potency.


I still have some of those QR beans 

sounds like a good cross


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

Ppl likes my 20+ fat compact heavy tops as well.

This run was the worest I ever had till now, believe it or not..

This pic is 2 weeks before chop chop

Maybe its not good enough for you but i sold it all on less than 1 hour!! 

And everybody told me.it was the best thing they have smoked in alooong time!!


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

Maybe I dont know alot like you guys. But am satisfied by what I get!!


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## RM3 (Apr 1, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Ppl likes my 20+ fat compact heavy tops as well.
> 
> This run was the worest I ever had till now, believe it or not..
> 
> ...


Nice Grow !


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Nice Grow !


Thank you RM


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## Alexander Supertramp (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I still have some of those QR beans
> 
> sounds like a good cross


It's as tasty as they come. Just doesn't have the kick it needs.


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## WeedFreak78 (Apr 1, 2016)

Light spread and distribution, including penetration, is what matters. Adjust light height to get the best spread over the canopy while getting the needed penetration. Adjust according to plant size and conditions.

Most larger (5'+) plants I've seen, though few, didn't have dense inner foliage, so penetration wasn't as much as a concern. IDK if they were pruned out or not...


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## RM3 (Apr 1, 2016)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> It's as tasty as they come. Just doesn't have the kick it needs.


Perhaps I'll hit with my CTF, everything it has been crossed to gets more potent 

A friend recently crossed it to Golden Goat and named it Goat Fucker


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## jafro daweedhound (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I have tried to help new growers understand how to better use light for years, even have a thread on it in my sig. Most don't listen, it is what it is, but they do like my pics of 20 inch colas
> .
> View attachment 3647008


Buddy you got my vote...


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## jafro daweedhound (Apr 1, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Can any one tell me what this means in simpel english please (miniaturize) does it mean that they get smaller?


They wouldn't get smaller, but that they have been stunted, usually due to stress


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

jafro daweedhound said:


> They wouldn't get smaller, but that they have been stunted, usually due to stress


Got it jafro, thanks alot


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## a mongo frog (Apr 1, 2016)

I disagree with most i guess. Im more of a fan of light management, keeping then as close as possible without any damage to the plant. 1000 watt air-cool 14-20 inches works well for me. sometimes less due to I've run out of room. Every strain could be different and every gardening style is going to be different on what you do with the lights.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Apr 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Perhaps I'll hit with my CTF, everything it has been crossed to gets more potent
> 
> A friend recently crossed it to Golden Goat and named it Goat Fucker


Goat Fucker, funny!


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## Alexander Supertramp (Apr 1, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> I disagree with most i guess. Im more of a fan of light management, keeping then as close as possible without any damage to the plant. 1000 watt air-cool 14-20 inches works well for me. sometimes less due to I've run out of room. Every strain could be different and every gardening style is going to be different on what you do with the lights.


You can over saturate a plant with light by keeping the lights too close. And this can occur without the plant showing signs of heat stress or bleaching. Still holding back the plant from reaching it's full potential and potency..The difference between good weed and killer weed.


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> You can over saturate a plant with light by keeping the lights too close. And this can occur without the plant showing signs of heat stress or bleaching. Still holding back the plant from reaching it's full potential and potency..The difference between good weed and killer weed.


Is this is high enough for 600 watters?? 

 


And this is 400w


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

I never mesure the distance I go by how I feel!!


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

The ones on the lift on the ground of the tent is vegetables and fruits. Thats why they are there!

Mj seedlings is above them


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## a mongo frog (Apr 1, 2016)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> You can over saturate a plant with light by keeping the lights too close. And this can occur without the plant showing signs of heat stress or bleaching. Still holding back the plant from reaching it's full potential and potency..The difference between good weed and killer weed.


Defiantly can get to close. All i stated was going as low as you can go without fucking up plants. Light management gets one super potent buds and great depth inside the canopy. Everyones light height will differ on their situation.


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 1, 2016)

I have 6500k 125w cfl

I wanted to have it above the seeslings as they are getting stretchy!!


So you tell me now what should I do!?


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## Arcadio (Apr 2, 2016)

Jimdamick said:


> Put a thermometer at 12" under ANY HID light, with a new bulb, and if it is below 100 degrees, I'll show you a picture of my dick (and get banned).
> There is no reason at all to have a HID fixture closer than 2 feet, as the loss of lumens is negligible, the spread gets lost, and the heat will definitely fuck your plant. I keep my LED's 2' away due to the intensity of the light as it WILL bleach your top bud, guaranteed, and my MH/HPS never get closer than 32". It is just better for the plant, as they just want light, and it really doesn't have to be that intense to do a good job in a small area.. Ever seen good grows just using CFL"s?. Sure you have, and that should prove my point.


Yeah if you just have the light and thermometer it would be over 100 degrees. But if you have good airflow under the bulb as well as a powerful fan pointed at the bulb, AND a powerful A/C for the space then you see what happens then is you gain a certain amount of temperature control and trust me you can definitely keep a canopy below 80 degrees at 12 inches from a 1000W HPS. If you can't it's because your equipment can't not because it's impossible. It is definitely possible and I definitely don't want that picture. Temps are measured using several thermometers that hang at canopy level as well as an infrared thermometer to measure the leaves directly. You may be interested to know that the AC doesn't even work very hard to achieve 80F. Using the right equipment in the right way can do amazing things to control an environment.

Loss of lumens negligible? The inversed squared relationship between light intensity and distance from source shows that from 2 feet to 12 inches gives you a 400% increase in lux (lumens/m2) at canopy level. The loss of lumens is far from negligible you lose a lot of light by moving up the lamp.

Regarding the light spread, I said before to forget about the need to sacrifice light intensity for coverage (spread) and to just consider the phase where the plants aren't big enough to worry about that such as early to mid veg.

As far as cfl's go sure I've seen some good grows using just CFL's and I've seen some outstading grows using HID lighting. Not worth comparing those. I doubt than any professional setups (that are interested in producing the best possible quality) use cfl's. You know those laboratory style setups you see that produce top quality, medical grade, highest resin content type stuff, they DO NOT use cfl's. I'll bet anything that the best bud around is always from HID lighting and possibly LED's but I've never tried great stuff from LED's so I don't know if the hype is really true about the latest LED tech. And yeah I know good even great stuff can come out of CFL's but when you're talking about the best, there is a definite difference in the growth vigor and style all through veg and flower and the final results when comparing HID to CFL.

If the light intensity was so negligible then everyone would be using 250W HID's and saving tons of money on equipment and electricity. But it's not the case, assuming everything else is in spec it's a well known fact that a 1000W will not only cover a far larger area but will also produce larger, thicker and denser flowers than a 400W for example. Same can be said when comparing a 600W to a 400W. When talking about flowering the quality difference is not huge between different wattages of HPS because the light spectrum is very similar. But there's a big difference between HPS technology and CFL when it comes to growing fruiting crops. HPS lamps are actually engineered for fruit/flower development. The types of processes it uses to create light are much more energetic and more akin to the sun than a CFL. CFL's are best for growing non-fruiting crops which do well when shaded from the sun. Crops that need direct sunlight benefit greatly from the type of light given off by HID (high intensity discharge) lighting.


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

Arcadio said:


> Yeah if you just have the light and thermometer it would be over 100 degrees. But if you have good airflow under the bulb as well as a powerful fan pointed at the bulb, AND a powerful A/C for the space then you see what happens then is you gain a certain amount of temperature control and trust me you can definitely keep a canopy below 80 degrees at 12 inches from a 1000W HPS. If you can't it's because your equipment can't not because it's impossible. It is definitely possible and I definitely don't want that picture. Temps are measured using several thermometers that hang at canopy level as well as an infrared thermometer to measure the leaves directly. You may be interested to know that the AC doesn't even work very hard to achieve 80F. Using the right equipment in the right way can do amazing things to control an environment.
> 
> Loss of lumens negligible? The inversed squared relationship between light intensity and distance from source shows that from 2 feet to 12 inches gives you a 400% increase in lux (lumens/m2) at canopy level. The loss of lumens is far from negligible you lose a lot of light by moving up the lamp.
> 
> ...


Well sayed arcadio.

Am still waiting for an answer for my poor seedlings needs!

not even a big plants.

Hope the guys above tell me what should I do for my stretchy seedlings as I believe that they are asking for more light appatently!!

Or am I wrong?


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## Arcadio (Apr 2, 2016)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> You can over saturate a plant with light by keeping the lights too close. And this can occur without the plant showing signs of heat stress or bleaching. Still holding back the plant from reaching it's full potential and potency..The difference between good weed and killer weed.


So you are saying you can create sub optimal conditions by giving them too much light. How about the light output of the sun, you know how bright that is? In order to match the brightness of a summer day you need to get very close to a 1000W HPS. Less than 12 inches in my experience from measuring them both with a lux meter.

Now lets move away from lumens and lux meters and consider light power in Watts since
Lumens are a measure of brightness as perceived by people with the largest weighting by far being on the color green, a color which is more or less irrelevant to plants. Watts are better to consider than lumens when you are talking about the amount of light the plant can handle. Lumens are for humans.

In areas where cannabis has evolved to thrive the sun bombards with over 1000W per square meter of light power. That's huge. It is the equivalent of having inside a tiny 3ft by 3ft area, ALL of the power of a 1000W HPS in light (aka radiation) form. No losses due to heat.
HPS produce much more watts worth of heat than light to begin with so you'd need multiple 1000W HPS lamps on 1 tiny square meter to produce the light power that the sun does. That's a massive amount of light that they are used to handling and thriving in.
When you move an HID multiple feet away you are providing a tiny fraction of the light power the sun gives.

It's a misconception that HID lighting can be more powerful than the sun when it comes to lighting a garden because it definitely can't, the sun is way more powerful/intense. Can you imagine trying to getting 3 1000W HPS lamps into a 3ft by 3ft area and utilizing all that light with 100% efficiency (i.e. no light goes to sides) ?.........I don't think so. But that's what it takes to match the power of the sun. It still wouldn't quite match the sun because not all this light will hit the 3ft by 3ft area, a lot will go to the sides and top and be absorbed. And it wouldn't match it in penetration. The sun has ultimate penetration being the same intensity 1 km above ground as it is at ground level. The advantage we have indoor is light hours of course which might possibly be a reason to maintain far lower light levels in our garden than a nice summer day. But really that much lower???

Before arguing the validity of my claim about needing 3 1000W hps in a 3ft x 3ft area to match the sun go ahead and research the lighting power of the sun known as irradiance. Irradiance is a measure of solar power that only considers light power and it is widely accepted to be over 1000W per square meter at the equator and well above 900W anywhere that high grade cannabis has evolved. It seems that in the highest grade cannabis evolved in regions close to the equator and at high altitudes which are the places with the greatest light power and intensity.

When you talk about a 1000W HPS light fixture it is not a light that produces 1000W of light. Not by a long shot. It gets the 1000W name because it merely consumes around 1000W of electrical power via the outlet, usually a tad more. What it produces is just a couple of hundred watts worth of light and the rest is 800W worth of heat. That's why you'll notice that a 1000W HID lamp with the ballast will produce about the same amount of heat as an 800W heater.
If you are thinking about arguing about my claim of an 1000W HPS producing only a couple of hundred watts of light you should know this, even the most efficient laser in the world is only about 35% efficient at producing light meaning that 1000W of this laser would produce 350W of light and 650W of heat. That's just the way it is when it comes to converting electricity into light. You create mostly heat and a little bit of light.
HID's are far more efficient than CFL's though.

Should we be striving to match the sun. Our lights are already at a great disadvantage it terms of light output, spectrum and penetration even for the 1000 watter. So why would we be wanting to widen the margin by creating even dimmer conditions??
Perhaps it's simply because we give them so many hours of light but I find that it doesn't justify it. There are many places that receive over 18 hours of daylight with many hours of very bright and powerful sunlight.
And one thing I know for absolute sure is that when growing outdoors in the sun, the more light the better. The longer the days, the better. The clearer the sky, the better. It really does seem like that plant just wants that enormous 1000W per square meter of light raining down on her all day. An amount of light that you will not even get close to without frying your plants with all the heat created by HID. So if the plants aren't being fried, and in fact are at IDEAL temp with an HID at 10 inches there is absolutely no way in hell that the amount of light is more than the sun or even close.

Shit I'm explaining this to my self now. I just realized something that seals the deal for me. An HID should definitely become a heat issue before it becomes a light issue. Why?? Because of the simple fact that it creates a lot more heat than it does light.

Less than 20% light more than 80% heat...I wonder what will become a problem first?


----------



## UncleBuck (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I have tried to help new growers understand how to better use light for years, even have a thread on it in my sig. Most don't listen, it is what it is, but they do like my pics of 20 inch colas
> .
> View attachment 3647008


that is one ragged plant.


----------



## UncleBuck (Apr 2, 2016)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> you obviously know little about what really makes plants tic.


this. is. awesome.


----------



## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> this. is. awesome.


----------



## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> that is one ragged plant.


Have you seen all the long stalks from all the other plants around it.

That have some of the pop corn eacht 15/20 cm on some of the branches 

I believe you have enough touth picks to clean your mouth with for a month lool

Really some strange ppl on that forum!! 

I like that you guys back eacht others tho even if its bullshit !


----------



## UncleBuck (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Have you seen all the long stalks from all the other plants around it.


it really is a testament to what you can do when temps are 92, light are turned off seemingly at random, and you have no smell from your plants.

 

but at least he pours boiling water on them to make them legendary.


----------



## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> it really is a testament to what you can do when temps are 92, light are turned off seemingly at random, and you have no smell from your plants.
> 
> View attachment 3647772
> 
> but at least he pours boiling water on them to make them legendary.


Sorry am not sure if I got what you mean completely! 

Can you clarify more please?


----------



## Arcadio (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Well sayed arcadio.
> 
> Am still waiting for an answer for my poor seedlings needs!
> 
> ...


I have found that seedlings can take lots of light very early but they don't need it, they do well under 45W of cfl too. What I have done in the past is use a 600W metal halide for seedlings but I start with the light about 2.5 feet away just to be safe. Then every day I move it closer by about an inch or two until it is at a height of about 10 inches from the canopy (about as close as possible). Getting it this close with an open hood requires good environment control in order to keep temps at bay. You should definitely have a thermometer to know your canopy temp and just lower your light to the point that you are happy with while ensuring that the temps are ok.

But I don't know anything about your setup. If you are using CFL or fluoro lights then make sure they are very close to the seedlings, 3 inches max and preferably a bit closer. If you are using HID then stay on the safe side and keep the light a couple of feet away when they are newborn seedlings and gradually move closer (or further if that's your thing).

My gut feeling is that light isn't your issue. If it is though I guess you may either be using CFL too far away or HID too close. 

Find out your relative humidity. Low humidity is very bad for seedlings. They like very high humidity ideally around 80% but anything above 50% will be pretty good.

What did you plant them in? If you used coco, that may be your answer. There are many cheap cocos that are very salty. I measured one that had a runoff of 1.4EC. This would be very bad if not fatal for any seedling. These cocos need to be thoroughly rinsed before using them. If you used soil it may also create a high EC due to containing strong fertilizers.

The other thing is your water. Most tap water is okay to use but there are some places with tap water that again has a very high EC (above 1.0) and will hinder or even kill seedlings.

If possible use R/O water. You can buy an R/O filter for under $100 that will produce thousands of litres of 0.01EC water which I've found is the best to use on seedlings until they are a few days old then you can slowly add your nutrients to ease them into their feeding schedule.

If you don't have an EC meter cheap EC meters work just fine. It is quite essential since it will answer many of these questions. Who knows whether it's the tap water or the medium if you can't measure it.

Finally if your pH is way off this will also be bad and depending on how far off your pH is will determine how badly it will affect your plants. If you are growing in coco/perlite or any other hydro setup you want pH to be 5.5 in veg and 5.8 in flower. If in soil then you want pH to remain around 6.3
Some cheap pH meters are okay but some are rubbish. It is definitely worth spending a bit more on a pH meter to get a descent one.


----------



## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

Arcadio said:


> I have found that seedlings can take lots of light very early but they don't need it, they do well under 45W of cfl too. What I have done in the past is use a 600W metal halide for seedlings but I start with the light about 2.5 feet away just to be safe. Then every day I move it closer by about an inch or two until it is at a height of about 10 inches from the canopy (about as close as possible). Getting it this close with an open hood requires good environment control in order to keep temps at bay. You should definitely have a thermometer to know your canopy temp and just lower your light to the point that you are happy with while ensuring that the temps are ok.
> 
> But I don't know anything about your setup. If you are using CFL or fluoro lights then make sure they are very close to the seedlings, 3 inches max and preferably a bit closer. If you are using HID then stay on the safe side and keep the light a couple of feet away when they are newborn seedlings and gradually move closer (or further if that's your thing).
> 
> ...


Check page 3 there is my setup with pics.


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

There is 2 pics in page 3 

First pic is half of my flower room

I have 3 more cool tubes on m y right side but you cant see them in this pic.

The second is the veg tent 

Then under that post there ia one more post with a pic focusing on the seedlings.


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## Arcadio (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Check page 3 there is my setup with pics.


Yeah for sure I'll take a look. Last thing I just forgot to mention is air flow. Make sure they have a good amount of wind from the start because this makes them produce a more stable structure. Seedlings that grow up in still air develop into weak and spindly plants which fall over under their own weight. Best to use an oscillating fan for this to simulate the varying wind conditions found in nature.

Okay I'll go take a look at your setup now and get back to you.


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

Arcadio said:


> Yeah for sure I'll take a look. Last thing I just forgot to mention is air flow. Make sure they have a good amount of wind from the start because this makes them produce a more stable structure. Seedlings that grow up in still air develop into weak and spindly plants which fall over under their own weight. Best to use an oscillating fan for this to simulate the varying wind conditions found in nature.
> 
> Okay I'll go take a look at your setup now and get back to you.


I do exactly every thing you have sayed.

Thanks for the detailed answer.

I was just arguing with the guys that haven the light that high is not good as they sayen!


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

The only thing that I do differently that I adjust veg around 5.8 ph and flower 5.9/6

And in veg if I start to have cal /mag dfs i raise the ph to 5.9/6 as well.

Cal/mag is pain in my ass as I run different strains with different needs for cal/mag


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## Arcadio (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> I do exactly every thing you have sayed.
> 
> Thanks for the detailed answer.
> 
> I was just arguing with the guys that haven the light that high is not good as they sayen!


I had a look but I couldn't find it. Can you give me a link?


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

Here are they happy and healthy

Just the seedlings was getten (little) stretchy..


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

Can you see it?


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

I run prepratual..

The 3 on the right of the veg tent I intend to make mothers

The 6 in the middle is veg

Seedlings are pre veg


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## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> it really is a testament to what you can do when temps are 92, light are turned off seemingly at random, and you have no smell from your plants.
> 
> View attachment 3647772
> 
> but at least he pours boiling water on them to make them legendary.


I love you UB you make doin this fun


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## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Have you seen all the long stalks from all the other plants around it.
> 
> That have some of the pop corn eacht 15/20 cm on some of the branches
> 
> ...


Have you never grown a Sativa ???


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Have you never grown a Sativa ???


I have super lemon haze!!

Stretch is alittle bit higher than the other strains but my MH keep it at minimal RM


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

You see I use lumatek 6500k 400w for veg

Then transit first 2/3 weeks of flower under 4200 MH lumatek 600w

The rest 6 weeks of flower I use HPS


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## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> I have super lemon haze!!
> 
> Stretch is alittle bit higher than the other strains but my MH keep it at minimal RM


That's a Hybrid, I mean a 100% Sativa Land Race ? 

you should try it sometime, it's fun


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I love you UB you make doin this fun


Rm can you please clarify for me what uncle buck sayes plz..


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> That's a Hybrid, I mean a 100% Sativa Land Race ?
> 
> you should try it sometime, it's fun


No not really, pure sativa give me headache also the lemon haze give me a headache. I dont know why sativas do this to me!

However, I like to add alittle lemon haze to my joints just for the taste.


----------



## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Rm can you please clarify for me what uncle buck sayes plz..


About what ?


----------



## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> About what ?


it really is a testament to what you can do when temps are 92, light are turned off seemingly at random, and you have no smell from your plants. Plus the boiling water part plz


----------



## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> it really is a testament to what you can do when temps are 92, light are turned off seemingly at random, and you have no smell from your plants. Plus the boiling water part plz


Just go read my journal and you will see ,,,,

https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-leprechauns-pot-o-gold.855314/


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

Damn 24 page + RM 

You have to wait alittle long for me


----------



## Arcadio (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Can you see it?


Yeah I see it. Your seedlings look like they are getting the right amount of light and it looks like it is MH light which is good for minimizing stretch.
I must say they don't really look that stretchy. Maybe just a lot of stretch from the ground to the first node but it looks pretty normal. You'll probably still have very tight node spacing from there up. 

Another factor that influences stretch is your day and night temperature swings. If you can keep your night temps close to your day temps then you will further minimize stretch.


----------



## Jimdamick (Apr 2, 2016)

Arcadio said:


> Yeah if you just have the light and thermometer it would be over 100 degrees. But if you have good airflow under the bulb as well as a powerful fan pointed at the bulb, AND a powerful A/C for the space then you see what happens then is you gain a certain amount of temperature control and trust me you can definitely keep a canopy below 80 degrees at 12 inches from a 1000W HPS. If you can't it's because your equipment can't not because it's impossible. It is definitely possible and I definitely don't want that picture. Temps are measured using several thermometers that hang at canopy level as well as an infrared thermometer to measure the leaves directly. You may be interested to know that the AC doesn't even work very hard to achieve 80F. Using the right equipment in the right way can do amazing things to control an environment.
> 
> Loss of lumens negligible? The inversed squared relationship between light intensity and distance from source shows that from 2 feet to 12 inches gives you a 400% increase in lux (lumens/m2) at canopy level. The loss of lumens is far from negligible you lose a lot of light by moving up the lamp.
> 
> ...


Well written piece, and pretty much what you wrote is indisputable, but as far as the average guy having that excellent ac and/or air flow, that is a rare case in my opinion. I just have never seen anyone place a 1000 watt HID fixture 12" above canopy without problems


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

Sorry my girl wanted sex :s

I sayed baby its not the time am really in the middle of serious conversation!

She didnt pay attention to what i sayed lol

Ill go to RM thread the back to here again guys..


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

Well am back!!

I have to admit that you get pretty good results haven in mind the system you runs!

Now I have some concerns RM and would like to know how does this works for you!

1-How can you grow with no intake and exhust? How you provide co2?! Or do you provide co2 and I just didnt notice?

2- regarding changing the veg and flower timming cycle I have read about it alot but I never try it my self

For sure you have been also doing the normal timming for flower and veg before

How changing the light cycle to this methood benfits you? Have you got bud increase vs the normal 12/12
Or just save in electricity and the results are the same?

Now back to our subject I still hold my position, that the bud locations that gets the most light is the ones who growes and give heavy buds.

I have seen guys providing down light and I seen the progress of the buds that got down light

Also when you cut the upper buds the down buds get fat bcz of the light exposure.

So ill hold my position still when it comes to distance! Sorry!

Still friends ?


----------



## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Well am back!!
> 
> I have to admit that you get pretty good results haven in mind the system you runs!
> 
> ...


some things are a secret


----------



## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

Arcadio said:


> Yeah I see it. Your seedlings look like they are getting the right amount of light and it looks like it is MH light which is good for minimizing stretch.
> I must say they don't really look that stretchy. Maybe just a lot of stretch from the ground to the first node but it looks pretty normal. You'll probably still have very tight node spacing from there up.
> 
> Another factor that influences stretch is your day and night temperature swings. If you can keep your night temps close to your day temps then you will further minimize stretch.


All the lamps in those pictures are MH

I use purely 6500k for veg then MH lumated as well 4200k for the stretch then hps 2000k for the rest 6 /7 weeks of flower depends on when they will stop stretching..

Works for me.

I believe those seedlings are in the wnd eadge of the 400w 

Its 5x3 secret garden 

I have north star reflector of the top of thw cooltube which increase the coverge by roughly 1 foot

4x3 instead of the 3x3

So it covers good 120xm by 90cm the rest is dead zone for me I have my veggies, fruits and fan and humidifier!


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> some things are a secret


Oh come on!!! 

Waiting for a PM


----------



## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Oh come on!!!
> 
> Waiting for a PM


I hate Powdery Mildew


----------



## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I hate Powdery Mildew


Looool
Thats mean


----------



## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

I mean those 

1-How can you grow with no intake and exhust? How you provide co2?! Or do you provide co2 and I just didnt notice?

2- regarding changing the veg and flower timming cycle I have read about it alot but I never try it my self

For sure you have been also doing the normal timming for flower and veg before

How changing the light cycle to thismethood benfits you? Have you got budincrease vs the normal 12/12
Or just save in electricity and the results are the same?

Not what you used so they start prouducing tric


----------



## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> 1-How can you grow with no intake and exhust? How you provide co2?! Or do you provide co2 and I just didnt notice?


IMO the worst thing you can do, my garden is wide open, there is plenty of CO2



Bubblegum31 said:


> How changing the light cycle to thismethood benfits you? Have you got budincrease vs the normal 12/12


makes the plants finish faster, brings out recessive traits 



Bubblegum31 said:


> Not what you used so they start prouducing tric


sulfur


----------



## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> IMO the worst thing you can do, my garden is wide open, there is plenty of CO2
> 
> I dont care if it finnish faster as am on a 9 weeks schedule but what interestes me is the yield?
> 
> ...


----------



## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> How would I use that?! And when?!


Not sure what you're askin here

I could care less about yield


----------



## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

IMO the worst thing you can do, my garden is wide open, there is plenty of CO2

You sayed you grow in basment wirh no intake and no exhust! How you have plenty of oxygen?



makes the plants finish faster, brings out recessive traits

I dont care about the finnish time as I have prepratual grow!

Thats why I ask if there was increase /decrease in yield or its exactly the same ( thats whats important for me) my quality is A+ so I dont care about it to be extra killing weed!!

I dont care also about how much electricity ill gonna spare..

sulfur

How I use sulfur to kick early tric proudction?? And how to use it early on!


----------



## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> How I use sulfur to kick early tric proudction?? And how to use it early on!


sulfur feeds the trics, I use Potassium Sulfate, feed it in flower after week 3 

I use UV bulbs in veg & flower


----------



## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> sulfur feeds the trics, I use Potassium Sulfate, feed it in flower after week 3
> 
> I use UV bulbs in veg & flower


How I give them sulfur to feed the trics?

Aint potassium sulfate is one of the components of flower boosters?


----------



## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> How I give them sulfur to feed the trics?
> 
> Aint potassium sulfate is one of the components of flower boosters?


In some yes, but very cheap by itself, I get it from Jack's


----------



## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> In some yes, but very cheap by itself, I get it from Jack's


I wish to know whos jack am dutch !


----------



## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> I wish to know whos jack am dutch !


http://www.jrpeters.com/home.html


----------



## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM can you please answer all at once or you will give me one drop after one drop !!


----------



## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> RM can you please answer all at once or you will give me one drop after one drop !!


I thought I was answering ???


----------



## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I thought I was answering ???


Looool

Bro i ask about

1-The oxygen while you grow in basment with no intake \ exhust or co2

2- how the light schedule affected your YIELD

3- how you use sulfur to feed the tric? 

Thanks alot


----------



## a mongo frog (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Looool
> 
> Bro i ask about
> 
> ...


probably pretty simple. He's most likely measured the amount of ppm"s in his room/basement area. They make cheap test kits for that purpose.


----------



## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> 1-The oxygen while you grow in basment with no intake \ exhust or co2


Answered this already, basement is wide open they breath the same air I do 



Bubblegum31 said:


> 2- how the light schedule affected your YIELD


Answered this, I don't grow for yield, I breed



Bubblegum31 said:


> 3- how you use sulfur to feed the tric?


Answered this as well, I use K sulfate


----------



## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

Answered this already, basement is wide open they breath the same air I do

This one is very strange?

If you stayed in this basment for along time aint you gonna exhust the oxygen there?

There must be air movment or new fresh air coming in somewhere or the place will be damp!

Answered this, I don't grow for yield, I breed

Ja but have you never growen in normal schedule? Didnt you notice any different in yield vs the normal schedule??!



Answered this as well, I use K sulfate[/QUOTE]
Thanks alot thats by far the best thread i have engaged in till now!


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> probably pretty simple. He's most likely measured the amount of ppm"s in his room/basement area. They make cheap test kits for that purpose.


He dont have any kind of pins!!


----------



## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> If you stayed in this basment for along time aint you gonna exhust the oxygen there?


No


Bubblegum31 said:


> Ja but have you never growen in normal schedule? Didnt you notice any different in yield vs the normal schedule??!


Yes


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## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> He dont have any kind of pins!!


Pins ???


----------



## a mongo frog (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> He dont have any kind of pins!!


I don't know what you mean by pins?


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> I don't know what you mean by pins?


Pens sorry

Any kind of testing pens no ec no ph nothing


----------



## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Pens sorry
> 
> Any kind of testing pens no ec no ph nothing


Not needed unless you are doin hydro and I grow in peat


----------



## a mongo frog (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Pens sorry
> 
> Any kind of testing pens no ec no ph nothing


Im sure he's checked before bro. He knows he has enough co2 for his plants. Dudes a pro, you know that.


----------



## a mongo frog (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Pens sorry
> 
> Any kind of testing pens no ec no ph nothing


Sorry i was referring to you air comments.


----------



## kmog33 (Apr 2, 2016)

I'm just going to state this because I couldn't really find it anywhere else in the thread in regards to the op. A big difference between professional facilities and home growers is that there are 100 lights in a sealed/controlled environment. Tons of light overlap and reflective walls to collect and push the light back into the canopies. Now a big room with say 2 million lumens in it, is going to have more light regardless of how high they are than your single hid/led/flouro/whatever. 

As a note for tent growers, there really isn't any need to have your lights close as light is absorbed by the plants, so as long as the light is sealed in your environment, some foliage is benefiting from it. I run my 600 hps at the top of my 7.5' tall 3x5 and don't have any density issues at all. There are so many other factors that contribute to yield/density/potency that as long as you have a good light source, you really should be focusing on things like your root system before you try to be scientific about light placement. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Arcadio (Apr 2, 2016)

It doesn't need to be a rare case though. If it's only a small grow with less than 2000W of lighting then most decent portable AC's can do the job as long as its below 100F outside then they begin to struggle. You should also keep the AC outside the grow space to remove the heat from the AC compressor and hot side of heat exchanger. You direct the cold air to your space via ducting which makes a good difference especially in a smaller space.
I keep an eye out for good deals on second hand portable AC's. You can get good ones for $100 sometimes and I've accumulated 3 so far for only like $400 total in case one breaks I've got a replacement. I haven't had one break and they work out almost as cheap to run as 2 centrifugal fans (inlet/exhaust). That's because the fans stay on a lot more while the AC sometimes stays on only 20% of the time. The fans sometimes stay on 100% of the time and fail to cool the room while making constant noise. And the thing is those 2 fans cost more than $400 combined and they are outperformed in every way.

Also you can run CO2 using a portable AC the way I said, even though it does create positive pressure while the AC runs causing CO2 to leak it's not that much when the AC only comes on a bit. I can keep the ppm above 1000 by just working out in there with the AC regulating temps. A split system AC is better but they cost thousands and setting them up means making big holes in walls. Portable's are highly overlooked when it comes to small grows as they can be very valuable tools, and efficient at the same time when used correctly. Then when smell becomes a big issue you can simply plug in your extraction fan with carbon filter so it either comes on with the AC or runs constant, thus creating negative pressure and hiding odors. This means a lot of air venting so you can't run co2 without wasting it, but running co2 till this stage of growth is still very beneficial and for just a few hundred bucks you can pick up a CO2 tank, regulator, timer, tubing, portable AC, 6 inch ducting and duct tape and there you have what you need to run CO2 very nicely, for the price of 10 bags of coco.

Also on the topic of AC's I recently found an interesting item. I noticed there were some people on a thread looking for ways to cool really small grows like in closets and small grow tents. Since for them a portable AC is too powerful they were looking at some mini usb cooler that uses a wet sponge. It wasn't to be.
What I found was an air conditioner that's made for cooling camping tents and it only uses 360W mains power which is pretty awesome and like 10 000 btus aparently. Could be a really cheap and awesome way to cool even a decent sized grow room with theoretically up to 2000W of light. Don't they say 5000btu's per light is a good amount of cooling. I doubt it really could do 2 thousand watters but I'm sure it could handle a 1000W light no problem and maybe 1400W even 1600W depending on outside temps.

Here's the link if anyone's interested, it's literally the only 360W compressor AC in the whole world I've been able to find. I know there's heaps of people looking for exactly this type of thing and I don't understand why these aren't more common they should sell them at grow shops, I'd choose a 360W AC over 2 centrifugal fans any day considering they cost about the same amount to buy, they'd cost about the same to run too and the AC would give you much more control over your temps.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CampingCon-UPC-3000N-Air-Conditioner-220V-Portable-AC-/222034243271?hash=item33b245aec7:g:0-wAAOSwFNZWz7fF

I hope it really does come close to 10000 btu's this would be a serious gem. Can't wait to try it or hear from someone who already has, if I hear that they work well I'm buying one and selling my portable AC's which use anywhere from 900W to 1200W. Really can't complain much about my portables though they are awesome machines.


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Sorry i was referring to you air comments.


Sorry dosent make a sence still am not I just wanna know how he do this am not sayen its not workin.

Even if he mesured it before oxygen is getten depleted by time.
If he growes in the basment How this air is getting changed!! 

Its all what I wanma know! 

How the place is not getten dump!


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## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Sorry dosent make a sence still am not I just wanna know how he do this am not sayen its not workin.
> 
> Even if he mesured it before oxygen is getten depleted by time.
> If he growes in the basment How this air is getting changed!!
> ...


I'm not sure what part of WIDE OPEN you don't understand

if you open a window is there air on the other side ?


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## a mongo frog (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Sorry dosent make a sence still am not I just wanna know how he do this am not sayen its not workin.
> 
> Even if he mesured it before oxygen is getten depleted by time.
> If he growes in the basment How this air is getting changed!!
> ...


Because having stale air is just a myth if thats what you referring to. Why would the air get dumped? What do you mean by depleted air?


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Because having stale air is just a myth if thats what you referring to. Why would the air get dumped? What do you mean by depleted air?


Plants use oxygen so is humans.

When you close the space even if its BIG space this oxygen by time is bien used by the plants when lights are on right or when he works in his growing space correct?

So by time this oxygen will be used all right?


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I'm not sure what part of WIDE OPEN you don't understand
> 
> if you open a window is there air on the other side ?


I dont get what you are sayen but ill follow..

Yes there will be air on the other side of the window!! 

But how this fresh air with co2.. on the other side of the window will get into your basment?


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## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Plants use oxygen so is humans.
> 
> When you close the space even if its BIG space this oxygen by time is bien used by the plants when lights are on right or when he works in his growing space correct?
> 
> So by time this oxygen will be used all right?


My basement is not sealed, it is wide open


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## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> I dont get what you are sayen but ill follow..
> 
> Yes there will be air on the other side of the window!!
> 
> But how this fresh air with co2.. on the other side of the window will get into your basment?


There is CO2 in the air outside


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> My basement is not sealed, it is wide open


Aha I got it.. Am sorry for the troubles and appreciate your time answering my questions RM


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## a mongo frog (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Plants use oxygen so is humans.
> 
> When you close the space even if its BIG space this oxygen by time is bien used by the plants when lights are on right or when he works in his growing space correct?
> 
> So by time this oxygen will be used all right?


But he has already told you his growing situation. Think he mentioned he has a removable blockade pannel in this wide open basement area, and theres a window down there.


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## Arcadio (Apr 2, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> I'm just going to state this because I couldn't really find it anywhere else in the thread in regards to the op. A big difference between professional facilities and home growers is that there are 100 lights in a sealed/controlled environment. Tons of light overlap and reflective walls to collect and push the light back into the canopies. Now a big room with say 2 million lumens in it, is going to have more light regardless of how high they are than your single hid/led/flouro/whatever.
> 
> As a note for tent growers, there really isn't any need to have your lights close as light is absorbed by the plants, so as long as the light is sealed in your environment, some foliage is benefiting from it. I run my 600 hps at the top of my 7.5' tall 3x5 and don't have any density issues at all. There are so many other factors that contribute to yield/density/potency that as long as you have a good light source, you really should be focusing on things like your root system before you try to be scientific about light placement.
> 
> ...


What you said agrees with what I already thought. I asked if their high light placement is related to the huge number of lights in the room causing them to kind of share all the lights due to the large spread of each light being so high. In that case there is a reason for their choice of placement.

I fully hear you about focusing on other factors, but assuming everything else is in spec the only thing left to analyze is the light placement.
What do you think about the power of the sun's light being over 1000W per square meter in places where cannabis thrives? While a 1000W HPS produces like 200W of actual light and about 800W worth of heat. Basically it would be impossible to beat the sun's light output without frying the plants.
You couldn't even use a single 1000W HPS in a square meter grow space. And even if you could, and reflected ALL of the light from the bulb that misses the canopy back to the canopy (which is impossible) you still would be at a mere fraction of the light output of the sun, you'd need multiple 1000W lights to actually produce 1000W of light.
Basically 1000W of light per square meter is an absolutely ridiculous amount and cannabis outdoors seems to like those really bright summer days, the brighter and longer the faster they grow. And they also don't mind the strong UVB days. UVB would be causing problems to a plant before visible light and infra red does I'd think because it's a higher energy wave. And HID lights don't produce much UVB at all. Mostly visible and harmless infrared.

So based on all that how could someone think that an HID light could be too bright for a plant without actually frying the plant though as I said. You could make it too bright by having 10 thousand watters in a square meter but you'd cook it. You could also make it too bright by having a single thousand watter a couple of inches away but again you'd cook it. The HID's produce so much heat/light ratio that it seems impossible to even match the suns 1000W/m2 of light without cooking the plants.

If all that is correct then the way to go would be to try and get your lights as close as possible without heat stressing the plants since all you would be doing is approaching what the sun does but never getting anywhere near it, rather getting as close to it as you can. How could being well below the sun's level be even remotely detrimental to these plants that love the sun?
And again neglecting the need to sacrifice for coverage. Lets consider early to mid veg where coverage isn't an issue and you have the choice of putting the light/s as close as you want.


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## kmog33 (Apr 2, 2016)

Arcadio said:


> What you said agrees with what I already thought. I asked if their high light placement is related to the huge number of lights in the room causing them to kind of share all the lights due to the large spread of each light being so high. In that case there is a reason for their choice of placement.
> 
> I fully hear you about focusing on other factors, but assuming everything else is in spec the only thing left to analyze is the light placement.
> What do you think about the power of the sun's light being over 1000W per square meter in places where cannabis thrives? While a 1000W HPS produces like 200W of actual light and about 800W worth of heat. Basically it would be impossible to beat the sun's light output without frying the plants.
> ...


You can put 1k in a square meter it's just be hard to fit the 2+ lbs in it to justify the electric bill. We're mostly trying to optimize our space IMO not compete with the sun. If you could put out as much light as the sun and control heat/canopy tents, you still couldn't justify the electric usage/costs.


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## flowersforfree (Apr 2, 2016)

I'm no pro, in fact my first grow can be followed "fun with super skunk"
I had this talk with my local grow shop
He told me to keep my 1000w lamp minimum of 36 inches from my tops
so in not wanting to hurt my plants I hung the lamp 40 inches from my tops and let the plant grow to the light
it was slow growing for the first 4 inches but now that they got into the 36 inch range they really took off
now my plants were getting close to the 30 inch range and my nodes are getting tight about 1/4 inch.
my thought was instead of moving my lights back to the 36 inch range I super cropped and will let them grow back to optimal distance.

I have really enjoyed this thread, has my gears turning


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## kmog33 (Apr 2, 2016)

flowersforfree said:


> I'm no pro, in fact my first grow can be followed "fun with super skunk"
> I had this talk with my local grow shop
> He told me to keep my 1000w lamp minimum of 36 inches from my tops
> so in not wanting to hurt my plants I hung the lamp 40 inches from my tops and let the plant grow to the light
> ...


I've had plants pretty much X grow into the glass on my 600s and 1ks and as long as your canopy temps are in check you can do it. Not great though. That being said I generally keep thousands 3-5' off the canopy. Some plants stretch a lot though lol.


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## Sativied (Apr 2, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> I'm just going to state this because I couldn't really find it anywhere else in the thread in regards to the op. A big difference between professional facilities and home growers is that there are 100 lights in a sealed/controlled environment. Tons of light overlap and reflective walls to collect and push the light back into the canopies. Now a big room with say 2 million lumens in it, is going to have more light regardless of how high they are than your single hid/led/flouro/whatever.
> 
> As a note for tent growers, there really isn't any need to have your lights close as light is absorbed by the plants, so as long as the light is sealed in your environment, some foliage is benefiting from it. I run my 600 hps at the top of my 7.5' tall 3x5 and don't have any density issues at all. There are so many other factors that contribute to yield/density/potency that as long as you have a good light source, you really should be focusing on things like your root system before you try to be scientific about light placement.









Ironically putting it higher up (single bulb in tent/closet) can result in better penetration and more uniform light delivery hortizontally and vertically than hanging it as low as possible.

1mm per watt works well for 'small' hps grows as a starting point. Ie. 60 cm (24") for 600watt, little over 3' for thousand. Then lower or raise as needed or desired.


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

Sativied said:


> Ironically putting it higher up (single bulb in tent/closet) can result in better penetration and more uniform light delivery hortizontally and vertically than hanging it as low as possible.
> 
> 1mm per watt works well for 'small' hps grows as a starting point. Ie. 60 cm (24") for 600watt, little over 3' for thousand. Then lower or raise as needed or desired.



Am downloading my video on you tube now guys


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## UncleBuck (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I love you UB you make doin this fun


i would stop growing if i ever grew anything that horrible. 

you brag about it.

yuck.


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## UncleBuck (Apr 2, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Dudes a pro, you know that.


clearly!


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## kmog33 (Apr 2, 2016)

Sativied said:


> Ironically putting it higher up (single bulb in tent/closet) can result in better penetration and more uniform light delivery hortizontally and vertically than hanging it as low as possible.
> 
> 1mm per watt works well for 'small' hps grows as a starting point. Ie. 60 cm (24") for 600watt, little over 3' for thousand. Then lower or raise as needed or desired.


Great addition. I'm on the same boat with my lighting in general. I'm under the impression that as long as you collect and reflect the light back, it's going to get used at somepoint.(I guess up to the point of light saturation, but none of use are all that close to that)


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

I have just made the video and after uploading it youtube tell me that I need to verify my account and I cant do that guys..

Any sloution to upload that video, any other website maybe?


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## a mongo frog (Apr 2, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> clearly!
> 
> View attachment 3648112


We've all had less then desirable runs from time to time.


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## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> We've all had less then desirable runs from time to time.


yeah and I only grew it for the CBD oil for a friend so I didn't care LOL


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> yeah and I only grew it for the CBD oil for a friend so I didn't care LOL


Hay RM,is it possible to upload this video on your channel? 
My max on youtube is 15 minutes and my video is 17:30 and am not really in the mood to make another one :s!


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## Sativied (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> I have just made the video and after uploading it youtube tell me that I need to verify my account and I cant do that guys..
> 
> Any sloution to upload that video, any other website maybe?


http://420tube.org/watch_video.php?v=164KX8G7N62G


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

Sativied said:


> http://420tube.org/watch_video.php?v=164KX8G7N62G


Ill switch to my laptop as I cant watch the movies on the website from my android

Ill be right back just old pc will takes minutes to start


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## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Hay RM,is it possible to upload this video on your channel?
> My max on youtube is 15 minutes and my video is 17:30 and am not really in the mood to make another one :s!


Sure


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Sure





RM3 said:


> Sure



Am in this page at the moment

When I press upload video i get this screen



Then I cant find from where or how should I upload?


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Sure


Nevermind, I can see now its not gonna work on my android it must be uploades from pc


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## RM3 (Apr 2, 2016)

Bubblegum31 said:


> Nevermind, I can see now its not gonna work on my android it must be uploades from pc


yeah, there should be a button in that blank white square


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## Urbz (Apr 2, 2016)

I ran a 1000w HPS eight inches from my canopy in a 4x4 tent for three weeks in flowering. Never saw plants yellow from the top down before. It was like reverse N deficiency. Haha.


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## SPLFreak808 (Apr 2, 2016)

Urbz said:


> I ran a 1000w HPS eight inches from my canopy in a 4x4 tent for three weeks in flowering. Never saw plants yellow from the top down before. It was like reverse N deficiency. Haha.


I run the same distances when i can get away with it. Some strains no matter how far i start them off actually never stay green at 8"


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

RM3 said:


> yeah, there should be a button in that blank white square


I cant also uploaded bcz its 2 Giga w...f!!!

Am tryen with youtube again

But check this smart guy out

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2539491/Dopey-marijuana-farmer-arrested-posting-YouTube-video-giving-tour-crops.html


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## Bubblegum31 (Apr 2, 2016)

Here is it guys check and comments are welcome


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## testiclees (Apr 2, 2016)

I had been in the school of closer is better until I read a post where @Greengenes707 was addressing a gardener's light intensity/distance question. Greengenes is master level grower he is also led light designer, gardener, and PLC.

He said this to a dude who has about the same ppfd as me (1290µmols/m^2/sec) and similar environment ;"No matter how high you hang it in the tent with that much light, you should actually notice the best performance with the most clearance as opposed to very close or even at what is considered high normally."

After reading that post I raised my light. Raising it improved my grow. Reading through this thread i think the greengenes was saying the same as the theory that was raised a few posts back i.e. a space that is closed and reflective with high irradiance takes good advantage of the diffused and reflected light. Under this condition low canopy clearance would be counterproductive.

http://biology.mcgill.ca/Phytotron/LightWkshp1994/1.5 Bugbee/Bugbee text.htm
*CONCLUSIONS*
Differences in radiation quality from the six most common electric lamps have little effect on photosynthetic rate. Radiation quality primarily alters growth because of changes in branching or internode elongation, which change radiation absorption. Growth and yield in wheat appear to be insensitive to radiation quality. Growth and yield in soybeans can be slightly increased under high pressure sodium lamps compared to metal halide lamps, in spite of greatly reduced chlorophyll concentrations under HPS lamps. Daily integrated photosynthetic photon flux (mol m-2 d-1) most directly determines leaf anatomy and growth. Photosynthetic photon flux levels of 800 μmol m-2 s-1 are adequate to simulate field daily-integrated PPF levels for both short and long day plants, but plant canopies can benefit from much higher PPF levels.


https://www.rollitup.org/t/what-is-my-ppfd.896429/#post-12245289


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## 517BlckBerry (Apr 3, 2016)

Someone in this thread said you would overdo the heat before the light. LMAO. Guy never saw light bleaching before apparently. I love the responses in here. 

I have seen strain differences though. Some (only sativas) I have seen grow right up to the damn glass in the 1000w hood, and NOT be bleached. No bullshit. It was kinda in the corner but still. That plant pulled like 17 ounces I think. So some I do believe can handle just about whatever you throw at it light wise(rare, and dif stages of growth want dif strength). As far as commercial grows, someone said what I was going to already. You get tons of light coverage and crossed light patterns etc..


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## Arcadio (Apr 3, 2016)

517BlckBerry said:


> Someone in this thread said you would overdo the heat before the light. LMAO. Guy never saw light bleaching before apparently. I love the responses in here.
> 
> I have seen strain differences though. Some (only sativas) I have seen grow right up to the damn glass in the 1000w hood, and NOT be bleached. No bullshit. It was kinda in the corner but still. That plant pulled like 17 ounces I think. So some I do believe can handle just about whatever you throw at it light wise(rare, and dif stages of growth want dif strength). As far as commercial grows, someone said what I was going to already. You get tons of light coverage and crossed light patterns etc..


I said that in my original post. I've found that the runts tend to prefer less light and usually much less nutrients. I don't grow sativas so don't know about them but I;ve grown plenty of hybrids mostly indica dominant. Once when I planted 7 different seeds, 3 Iced Grapefruit by Female Seeds and 4 Purple Haze by G13 Labs. I found that 2 plants were bleaching and 5 were thriving. The light was a 600W MH about 8 inches above the plants by the time they were 10 days old.
So I lowered the height of the pots on those 2 plants to get them away from the light while keeping the other plants nice and close. The 2 plants that I moved away started looking much better after I moved them further from the light but in comparison to the other 5 they were truly runts. And it showed in the end product too, one of them yielded 5 grams!!!!? Can't believe I even let her finish, just too kind I guess. Each plant was in a 7 gallon pot. The other runt yielded like 35 grams. One of the good plants yielded over 8oz by itself!!!! It was a G13 Labs Purple Haze and had delicious and very dense buds.

And these were grown without supplementing co2. I've heard that when you supplement co2 they can use more light than normal. So anyway I've concluded that plants that like low light (and probably low nutes) are gonna grow more slowly and probably gonna end up yielding a little pile of low quality trash. Has been for me at least.

When I've grown outdoors I've found the exact same pattern. The plants that have shown signs of bleaching (rare case) I have taken them out of direct sun and placed them in some shade with my mint and rosemary plants (since I do know about bleaching) and they responded well. But the plants that remain thriving in the direct sunlight are the plants that are gonna be the good yielders with far better quality. And the longer the days the better they grow, they love those 17 hour days with clear skies.

And the thing (that I mention early in thread) about the sun is it provides waaayyy more light than any indoor setup does. The sun can provide over 1000W of LIGHT per square meter. And maintains well above 600W per square meter for great lengths of the day.
Put a 1000W hps in a square meter garden (which you can't do anyway due to heat not light) and you still don't even come close to the sun's light since the 1000W hps does NOT create 1000W of light. It makes about 800W of heat and 200W of light. That fact alone really shows that you'd be hard pressed to even come close to the sun's light intensity. And the fact that the HPS makes 20% light and 80% heat, that's 400% more heat than light, tells me that you would most likely overdo the heat before the light seeing as 400% is a lot and all.

That is in most cases, not for those plants wanna be shaded.
I think it makes perfect sense that the more vigorous plant is going to want more light.

And yeah the 1 time I used a cooled hood I too had the plants grow into the glass with absolutely no probelms. I don't use cooled hoods anymore though because the light distribution sucks and I was using a magnum XXXL. I swapped back to my large adjust a wings for good because the spread is that much better and the open bulb is also better to have for up to 10% more light and also more of the spectrum.


----------



## Arcadio (Apr 3, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> But this OTHER video says closer is better. So what can you do, right?


Yeah that is an interesting video and that those are double ended bulbs that he says to keep 6-12 inches away. 6 inches is pretty damn close but I guess with enough AC.
I believe it when he says that when he tried keeping the lights 24-36 inches (as per manufacturer's recommendations) he lost nearly 60 ounces.


----------



## flowersforfree (Apr 3, 2016)

Sativied said:


> Ironically putting it higher up (single bulb in tent/closet) can result in better penetration and more uniform light delivery hortizontally and vertically than hanging it as low as possible.
> 
> 1mm per watt works well for 'small' hps grows as a starting point. Ie. 60 cm (24") for 600watt, little over 3' for thousand. Then lower or raise as needed or desired.


Cool thank you, so I'm right in the ball park.


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## Apical Bud (Apr 8, 2016)

Dear OP:
I share your concern. Everything I have read and everything I have experienced while growing weed tells me more lux is better. The sun gives at least 100,000 lux around here on March sunny days. My outdoor plants cannot be matched by indoor plants, and I don't credit that growth to the compost soil in my garden.
However, recently my grow has been co-opted by more experienced growers who put all our lights 8 feet from the canopy. With 12 1000W hortilux HPS we still get almost 10,000 lux at the canopy. They claim they don't raise their lights, from veg to flower. I have to trust them because of their credentials, but their only seemingly plausible argument is that they trade light intensity at the canopy for distributed intensity from head to toe, so that their side colas will get a lot of light. That argument might hold up because I've gone around their rooms with a lux meter and the lux doesn't change much from top to bottom (because of the linear stacking effect of many bulbs).
However, I believe that their method is simply "good enough" for their purposes. They argued that one of the benefits of their technique is that canopies even out quickly, since no single cola gets more light than any other, and they claim that this disavows the need to top plants, thereby reducing stress. But when I asked them if a lighting system that provided the same even distribution of light but at higher intensity would increase growth they told me it didn't matter. I have already tested plants at 1000 FC, at 500 FC, and at 2000 FC, and I can tell you it matters.
Well, they have 2 months to prove their methods.
I will report back to you on how it goes. But damn, my other buddy grows with 50,000 lux in flower and they will be hard pressed to match his yields.


----------



## Dear ol" Thankful Grower! (Apr 8, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I have tested many bulbs and I mix em to give a complete spectrum I even have 3 UV bulbs in there. I like more deep blue than red because it increases tric production so I run 9 deep blue with 6 reds + the 3 UV's makes 18 bulbs which = roughly 1000 watts


Do uvs really make a hive dicference thats all ed rosenthal talks about wonder if they have they that would fit a socket i wouldnt min have that in veg or flower


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## RM3 (Apr 9, 2016)

Dear ol" Thankful Grower! said:


> Do uvs really make a hive dicference thats all ed rosenthal talks about wonder if they have they that would fit a socket i wouldnt min have that in veg or flower


It sure does


----------



## BobCajun (Apr 9, 2016)

Apical Bud said:


> Dear OP:
> I share your concern. Everything I have read and everything I have experienced while growing weed tells me more lux is better. The sun gives at least 100,000 lux around here on March sunny days. My outdoor plants cannot be matched by indoor plants, and I don't credit that growth to the compost soil in my garden.
> However, recently my grow has been co-opted by more experienced growers who put all our lights 8 feet from the canopy. With 12 1000W hortilux HPS we still get almost 10,000 lux at the canopy. They claim they don't raise their lights, from veg to flower. I have to trust them because of their credentials, but their only seemingly plausible argument is that they trade light intensity at the canopy for distributed intensity from head to toe, so that their side colas will get a lot of light. That argument might hold up because I've gone around their rooms with a lux meter and the lux doesn't change much from top to bottom (because of the linear stacking effect of many bulbs).
> However, I believe that their method is simply "good enough" for their purposes. They argued that one of the benefits of their technique is that canopies even out quickly, since no single cola gets more light than any other, and they claim that this disavows the need to top plants, thereby reducing stress. But when I asked them if a lighting system that provided the same even distribution of light but at higher intensity would increase growth they told me it didn't matter. I have already tested plants at 1000 FC, at 500 FC, and at 2000 FC, and I can tell you it matters.
> ...


According to the conversion shown on this page, 10,000 lux of HPS would be less than 200 PPF. Probably good for growing lettuce. Just to get 600 PPF you'd need 49,200 HPS lux.


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## Kychess33 (Apr 10, 2016)

Arcadio said:


> So you are saying you can create sub optimal conditions by giving them too much light. How about the light output of the sun, you know how bright that is? In order to match the brightness of a summer day you need to get very close to a 1000W HPS. Less than 12 inches in my experience from measuring them both with a lux meter.
> 
> Now lets move away from lumens and lux meters and consider light power in Watts since
> Lumens are a measure of brightness as perceived by people with the largest weighting by far being on the color green, a color which is more or less irrelevant to plants. Watts are better to consider than lumens when you are talking about the amount of light the plant can handle. Lumens are for humans.
> ...


You are correct about the efficiency of hid lighting (heat and light ) but I believe the technology is closer to a 60/40 heat 60 light 40 now ...I can't swear to it though lol good explanation the way you said it though


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## NYFlowerpower631 (Feb 8, 2020)

Yea my buddy runs the PowerVeg T5 bulbs with there light set up suggested for his 8 4ft T5 lights and he does grow amazing quality flower but definitely and he even agreed you don’t get the yield of some of these LED’s or HID’s just my opinion but not denying you can grow some nice big amazing flower and T5’s have come a long way won’t be surprised in future they to will produce big yields


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## ttystikk (Feb 8, 2020)

NYFlowerpower631 said:


> Yea my buddy runs the PowerVeg T5 bulbs with there light set up suggested for his 8 4ft T5 lights and he does grow amazing quality flower but definitely and he even agreed you don’t get the yield of some of these LED’s or HID’s just my opinion but not denying you can grow some nice big amazing flower and T5’s have come a long way won’t be surprised in future they to will produce big yields


No. LED is already much more efficient and will keep getting more so. Florescent tech has maxed out. The only thing florescent lights do better than LED is UV and even that looks to be changing eventually.

If you want a high efficiency setup, use LED and supplement with UV florescent.


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## NYFlowerpower631 (Feb 8, 2020)

ttystikk said:


> No. LED is already much more efficient and will keep getting more so. Florescent tech has maxed out. The only thing florescent lights do better than LED is UV and even that looks to be changing eventually.
> 
> If you want a high efficiency setup, use LED and supplement with UV florescent.


Not disagreeing with you at all. Personally I don’t care for LED’s I think the good ones are WAY over priced imo I’ve had this discussion with plenty of ppl. Been told everything about LES’s but my area would need at least 2 of these good lights to cover my area and family comes first as bills so don’t have the $$$ to invest which would be close to 2000$ I’m a hobby grower I’ll just pay my electric bill which honestly is not bad at all and run my 600w and 1000w Mh/HPS I only use Hortilux bulbs and get 2 runs for every bulb so they don’t cost me a lot like everyone claims to be. If you can and have that type of money to invest into your hobby I say go for it me I’ll spend more $$$ On good genetics and run the lights that been working for me 15 years and still going lol. Far from poor I run my own landscaping business but for just a hobby growing 5-6 nice sized plants and it’s not perpetual I don’t see the justification to spending the ridiculous amount of money these lights cost


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## Lpena007 (Feb 9, 2020)

RM3 said:


> For years my pet peeve has been growers crammin light up the plants ass without understanding that light is simply just one of the elements that needs to be dialed in.
> 
> Folks are always amazed at what I accomplish using T5's to flower and I keep em 2 feet off the canopy. The reason you see commercial lights so high up is they understand this.
> 
> ...


What t5 are you using?


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## hybridway2 (Feb 9, 2020)

NYFlowerpower631 said:


> Not disagreeing with you at all. Personally I don’t care for LED’s I think the good ones are WAY over priced imo I’ve had this discussion with plenty of ppl. Been told everything about LES’s but my area would need at least 2 of these good lights to cover my area and family comes first as bills so don’t have the $$$ to invest which would be close to 2000$ I’m a hobby grower I’ll just pay my electric bill which honestly is not bad at all and run my 600w and 1000w Mh/HPS I only use Hortilux bulbs and get 2 runs for every bulb so they don’t cost me a lot like everyone claims to be. If you can and have that type of money to invest into your hobby I say go for it me I’ll spend more $$$ On good genetics and run the lights that been working for me 15 years and still going lol. Far from poor I run my own landscaping business but for just a hobby growing 5-6 nice sized plants and it’s not perpetual I don’t see the justification to spending the ridiculous amount of money these lights cost


Lets just say led has replaced T-5's in my garden with a 3/4 power savings. 
100w Of medium powered diodes on strips x5 yrs ago, puts out equal to a 470w HO, T-5 
Just as good plant health as my T-5's also & does seedlings just as good. So after seeing that 5 yrs. Ago i gave away all my t-5's. Had a shit ton cuz there were 4', x4 bulb ones for sidelighting in the flower room too.
Even gave away my brand spankin new 2x2/200w T-5 to a buddy to encourage him to grow. 
Only T-5 I'd us now is for UV.


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## NYFlowerpower631 (Feb 9, 2020)

hybridway2 said:


> Lets just say led has replaced T-5's in my garden with a 3/4 power savings.
> 100w Of medium powered diodes on strips x5 yrs ago, puts out equal to a 470w HO, T-5
> Just as good plant health as my T-5's also & does seedlings just as good. So after seeing that 5 yrs. Ago i gave away all my t-5's. Had a shit ton cuz there were 4', x4 bulb ones for sidelighting in the flower room too.
> Even gave away my brand spankin new 2x2/200w T-5 to a buddy to encourage him to grow.
> Only T-5 I'd us now is for UV.


Mighty nice of you to give your friend that light Awesome friend good stuff


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## JohnDee (Feb 9, 2020)

BobCajun said:


> I guess a water cooled lamp would never pass safety regs though.


They've been making water cooled HIDs for years and now even leds.

Philips worked with a reflector manufacturer to come up with a good light placement...relying on light density to get overlap...thus allowing lights to be higher. So lights are closer together...
JD


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## BurnzAU (Feb 18, 2021)

NYFlowerpower631 said:


> Family comes first as bills so don’t have the $$$ to invest which would be close to 2000$
> 
> Far from poor I run my own landscaping business but for just a hobby growing 5-6 nice sized plants and it’s not perpetual I don’t see the justification to spending the ridiculous amount of money these lights cost


Which is it mate? Don't have the money to invest? Or far from poor and run your own business? If you run your own business you should be able to work out that the money you save on bulbs and power + extra yield and quality would give you a return on your investment very fucking quickly. 

If you are going to argue the point atleast try and make sense.


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