# Cloning weak stems = weak plants



## RickWhite (Dec 16, 2009)

Anyone ever try cloning those scrubby little shoots from the bottom of the plant thinking they would regenerate and become normal sized plants?

Well, I tried it and they grew some of the scrawniest plants I have seen. I'm 99% sure this is the cause because they are in a DWC with other clones from the same mother and those grew quite nicely. And they all receive good light.

Evidently, those shoots lack something needed for vigorous growth.


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## Woomeister (Dec 16, 2009)

Nonsense, the cloning process does not pick and choose parts of the 'mother' plant, it has the complete dna profile.


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## RickWhite (Dec 16, 2009)

Woomeister said:


> Nonsense, the cloning process does not pick and choose parts of the 'mother' plant, it has the complete dna profile.


That's what I thought when I did it.

Notice those little dwarf shoots never grow like the others. Different parts of an organism are made up of different cell types and they don't all necessarily take on new rolls when cloned. For instance, would a cloned root stop being a root and grow to be a full plant? Seems like those little dwarf stems just want to be dwarf stems. You are welcome to try it if you want pathetic plants.


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## Woomeister (Dec 16, 2009)

I have Botanical sciences degree my friend and I am telling you the truth... I always clone using the small branches so as not to lessen my yield and slow growth. Your plants are weak thats the real answer to your quandry.


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## EverythingHydro.com (Dec 16, 2009)

Interesting question. Never put the two together because I'm not sure it's true. I take cuttings anywhere I can on a plant. I've never noticed or could tell which one was which afterwards.

From a cellular/biological POV, I can't think of anything I've learned that would say otherwise. A clone is an exact idential match to the parent.

Secondly, you can stress and bend plants to improve plant stability (ie, grow thicker stems). 

I think something else kept the clone from maturing normally...not because you took a smaller cutting.


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## EverythingHydro.com (Dec 16, 2009)

Woomeister said:


> I have Botanical sciences degree my friend and I am telling you the truth... I always clone using the small branches so as not to lessen my yield and slow growth. Your plants are weak thats the real answer to your quandry.


Finally...someone who understands. When did you get _your _degree? I have enough credit hours for bachelors but didn't take a stupid math class to get the degree.


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## Woomeister (Dec 16, 2009)

Got it over about 8 years ago, I study part time permanently. Have 3 degrees now!!!


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## greenyield (Dec 16, 2009)

RickWhite said:


> Anyone ever try cloning those scrubby little shoots from the bottom of the plant thinking they would regenerate and become normal sized plants?
> 
> Well, I tried it and they grew some of the scrawniest plants I have seen. I'm 99% sure this is the cause because they are in a DWC with other clones from the same mother and those grew quite nicely. And they all receive good light.
> 
> Evidently, those shoots lack something needed for vigorous growth.


 lets say that you take two clones from the same mother and one of them has a fatter stem than the other and quite noticeably so. if they both root at the same time i would say, with my own experience that the clone with the fatter stem will grow with more vigour and probably outgrow the thinner stemmed clone. try to take clones of even length and stem size to get even growth from all clones.


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## Mikey Hustle (Dec 16, 2009)

I have listened to things that we all understand from different books, internet, and word of mouth.

As I dont think that Rick is an idiot. I do feel he is SLIGHTLY wrong.

I have been doing some serious cloning on GDP and White widow in the last year. I have also come to the same conclusion that Rick did.

Then I realized that the bigger branches had more root growth. When I left the little ones in the clone dome longer, and they gained more root growth... I then transferred them into pots & they were no longer little plants. They just required more time to root.


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## RickWhite (Dec 16, 2009)

I guess with my degree in molecular biology I'm just the ignoramus of the group.

I am not talking about small branches. I am talking about those teeny tiny dwarf branches that only get a few inches long.

The reason behind this probably has to do with cell differentiation. Cells in organisms are typically specialized - stem cells grow into stems, leaves grow into leaves and roots grow into roots. Stems have cells in them that will grow into roots and that is why they can be cloned. And these stems also have a mechanism by which they actually reproduce an offspring.

There is something about the tiny dwarf shoots that makes them remain small. I suspect that if you chopped your entire plant save for these dwarf stems, they still would grow only very sparsely and not very large. It is as if these stems are programed to remain tiny for some reason.

Anyway, the clones they produced were grown in the exact same conditions as the others. While most of the plants grew big heavy buds, these plants were runts. There simply is no other explanation.

And just to be clear, I am not talking about small bottom stems - I am talking about the tiny 4" shoots on the very bottom. The ones that look like they just aren't meant to grow.


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## seasmoke (Dec 17, 2009)

Rick, All I clone are the little branches from underneath and every one of them turn into great plants that yield about 1/4 lb at around 3ft tall.(indoors of course)The only problems i've had with my plants was brought on by human error. 

The ONLY plant that is "weak" is a Sativa Spirit, that is known for being tall and lanky....she just won't hold up her buds. I do love this smoke though, man don't I get the munchies...


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## dbo24242 (Dec 17, 2009)

RickWhite said:


> For instance, would a cloned root stop being a root and grow to be a full plant?



... cloned root  

thats pretty lame for a college grad, especially of biology...

if its a tissue culture clone it will become a perfectly fine plant... and that certainly isn't as robust as its mother its a fucking little tissue lol. if its a scrawny branch clone it will grow how you allow it to, normally into a full sized plant. or in your case, crappy.


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## ink the world (Dec 17, 2009)

I cloned a small flower that had been pollinated and seeded. It took a while but that puny little clone rooted and developed into a nice Mom. She just went into flowering after giving me 11 clones, all rooting as we speak. Most of my clones are small, i find they root easier than the thicker stemmed cuttings. 

Sorry Rick but based on my own personal experience your theory is off base.

Pic 1 is the little seeded cutting. Pic 2 is her after being chopped for cuttings, pic 3 is her cuttings.


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## Woomeister (Dec 17, 2009)

We have tried telling him.......


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## dbo24242 (Dec 17, 2009)

yea rickwhite has a laughable rep most posts I see by him are paragraphs of confus*ed* nonsense


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## purple voodoo#5 (Dec 17, 2009)

i have found that those small mini branches at the bottom do tend to stay a dwarf compared to nice big cuts but the small bottom cut started smaller than the big long cut so i would expect it to finish smaller as well.  also different strains grow differently and have diferent characteristics so that has to be taken in to consideration also. the strain im talking about is gods gift


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## purple voodoo#5 (Dec 17, 2009)

ink the world said:


> I cloned a small flower that had been pollinated and seeded. It took a while but that puny little clone rooted and developed into a nice Mom. She just went into flowering after giving me 11 clones, all rooting as we speak. Most of my clones are small, i find they root easier than the thicker stemmed cuttings.
> 
> Sorry Rick but based on my own personal experience your theory is off base.
> 
> ...


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## IMO (Dec 17, 2009)

RickWhite said:


> That's what I thought when I did it.
> 
> Notice those little dwarf shoots never grow like the others. Different parts of an organism are made up of different cell types and they don't all necessarily take on new rolls when cloned. For instance, would a cloned root stop being a root and grow to be a full plant? Seems like those little dwarf stems just want to be dwarf stems. You are welcome to try it if you want pathetic plants.


but you can clone roots, and they will grow into big bushy plants.


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## RickWhite (Dec 17, 2009)

It may be the case that these dwarf stems might eventually grow into full plants if grown long enough. But when grown side by side with other plants they produce runts. Vegging these three times as long is no use to me.

I'd be interested to see links showing plants cloned from a root or leaf - and I'm not talking about advanced lab techniques, I'm talking regular propagation. I have inserted fire fly DNA into a plant and made it glow. I'm sure just about anything can be done in a lab.


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## Mark5:9 (Dec 17, 2009)

I don't think plant growth is strictly linear.. in that every clone grows at the exact same rate. It might have the same DNA but if I take a tiny little clone with only the tiniest of leaves and a clone from the same mother with several large leaves.. It should be apparent that the larger one will be able to generate more energy from it's larger leaves every moment of every day light hour further gaining ground on the little guy. The larger one will gain ground exponentially and the small one can not and never will catch up. 

Genetically they are the same.. it's about how they start out. If this was not the truth then tissue culture would not be popular in commercial production.


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## seasmoke (Dec 17, 2009)

It may be the case that these dwarf stems might eventually grow into full plants if grown long enough. But when grown side by side with other plants they produce runts

Bullshit. complete fukkin bullshit. 

Rick white that is complete utter bullshit. Maybe you actually ought to grow a plant before you speak.


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## Askeezy (Dec 17, 2009)

hmmmm
i have no input here haha.


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## Shrubs First (Dec 18, 2009)

Cutting near the bottom of the plant is best.

The top of the plant has older hormones, and 
the bottom has younger hormones, which will
root faster and produce more vigorous growth, 
check your methods.


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## Shrubs First (Dec 18, 2009)

RickWhite said:


> It may be the case that these dwarf stems might eventually grow into full plants if grown long enough. But when grown side by side with other plants they produce runts. Vegging these three times as long is no use to me.
> 
> I'd be interested to see links showing plants cloned from a root or leaf - and I'm not talking about advanced lab techniques, I'm talking regular propagation. I have inserted fire fly DNA into a plant and made it glow. I'm sure just about anything can be done in a lab.


Now that is what I call laughable....

You should change your name to RickRolled


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## EnkiGrower (Dec 18, 2009)

_"I suspect that if you chopped your entire plant save for these dwarf stems, they still would grow only very sparsely and not very large. It is as if these stems are programed to remain tiny for some reason."_


I actually dropped one of my plants and broke the main stem, all that was left was the dwarf stems. I let it grow to see what would happen. I now have two stems growing up as if I topped the plant. 
I've made clones from some pretty skimpy branches and they have grown fine. 
I was under the impression that three nodes can make a clone...although a friend of mine told me you weren't supposed to make clones from plants that weren't vegged for less then two months, I have. will that lead to problems later?


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## ink the world (Dec 18, 2009)

purple voodoo#5 said:


> ink the world said:
> 
> 
> > I cloned a small flower that had been pollinated and seeded. It took a while but that puny little clone rooted and developed into a nice Mom. She just went into flowering after giving me 11 clones, all rooting as we speak. Most of my clones are small, i find they root easier than the thicker stemmed cuttings.
> ...


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## Mcgician (Dec 18, 2009)

IM OPINION, the larger your stem base, the larger the overall branching, and overall yield. I do have a college degree, but it's not in anything regarding horticulture or botany. All I have to draw from is personal experience, and tried and true techniques. I'm crazy, I'm sure of it.


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## RickWhite (Dec 18, 2009)

I'm not sure you guys are understanding what I am talking about when I refer to these shoots.

I am not talking about the smaller stems toward the bottom of the plant. I am talking about the minute little shoots that are so small they almost look like some sort of abnormal growth. They only get a few inches long and only develop tiny immature leaves about the size of a dime. They kind of look like something half way between a root and a branch.

But anyway, I'm just reporting what I have seen happen. I initially assumed that these shoots would regenerate and grow like any other. It didn't happen and I wound up with a runt. I do not know if vegging this runt extra long would allow it to catch up to the others. What I observed was that the plant grew normally in height (18"-24") but produced maybe a couple grams. This happened with the plant right along side her sisters in the same DWC tub as those that turned out great. Now, it could be the case that while these shoots posses the same DNA, their roll on the plant is not the same as the normal branches, and when cloned, this roll doesn't change. I have no other explanation.

Anyway, this is what happened, this was my observation, you may take from it what you will. For those who feel it necessary to chime in simply to tell me I'm full of shit or to pick a fight for no reason, you can go fuck yourselves.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 18, 2009)

RickWhite said:


> I'm not sure you guys are understanding what I am talking about when I refer to these shoots.
> 
> I am not talking about the smaller stems toward the bottom of the plant. I am talking about the minute little shoots that are so small they almost look like some sort of abnormal growth. They only get a few inches long and only develop tiny immature leaves about the size of a dime. They kind of look like something half way between a root and a branch.
> 
> ...


Dude, this really couldn't be much simpler.

When you take a 10" clone and a 4" clone from the same mother, the 10" will obviously perform better, grow faster, and yield more?

Why?

Because it has a fucking head start, dude - as a poster above said, it will grow exponentially as fast as the smaller clone with smaller leaves.

I don't need a degree in botany, it's pure common sense.

P.S. - root cloning is quite real, Google it.

*Disclaimer - I graduated with a dual major in finance and real estate and a dual minor in mathematics and statistics, but no horticultural degrees.


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## stoner1984 (Dec 18, 2009)

RickWhite said:


> It may be the case that these dwarf stems might eventually grow into full plants if grown long enough. But when grown side by side with other plants they produce runts. Vegging these three times as long is no use to me.


Supprising really... a large clone taken off a developed part of a plant grows better and faster than a runtish part of the plant that is set to spend its new life further away from the light under the shade of its sisters.... i really cant understand why that would happen....

You should be a scientist or something.


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## RickWhite (Dec 18, 2009)

This plant was not light starved. In fact, I regularly move the larger plants to the edges and put the smaller ones directly below the light so they can catch up and I don't crowd plants. This was not simply a matter of being a bit behind. I'm telling you this plant just remained a runt.

Now I have noticed a high EC and did have some issues. It could be that this little plant was disproportionately affected. Either way, I will only be cloning strong branches from now on.


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## Shrubs First (Dec 18, 2009)

Why would you clone a "weak" looking branch
in the first place, wouldn't you want your next
generation of ladies to be of the highest quality?

I just don't get what would possess you to come
to the conclusion like this. 

Most people would look at a weak branch and say, I
am going to prune that or trim that off... not clone it.

Your clone is only as healthy as the plant or the part of
the plant you take it from. Why wouldn't you choose
a clone from a more appropriate site?


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## RickWhite (Dec 19, 2009)

Shrubs First said:


> Why would you clone a "weak" looking branch
> in the first place, wouldn't you want your next
> generation of ladies to be of the highest quality?
> 
> ...


Because I thought any part of the plant would regenerate like any other and didn't want to cut off good branches.

Another cause of this dwarf issue might be that these branches might have some growth inhibiting hormones that slow them down.

Anyway, lesson learned.


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## stoner1984 (Dec 20, 2009)

RickWhite said:


> Another cause of this dwarf issue might be that these branches might have some growth inhibiting hormones that slow them down.


But they dont.


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## seasmoke (Dec 20, 2009)

"I'm not sure you guys are understanding what I am talking about when I refer to these shoots.

I am not talking about the smaller stems toward the bottom of the plant. I am talking about the minute little shoots that are so small they almost look like some sort of abnormal growth. They only get a few inches long and only develop tiny immature leaves

Anyway, this is what happened, this was my observation, you may take from it what you will. For those who feel it necessary to chime in simply to tell me I'm full of shit or to pick a fight for no reason, you can go fuck yourselves."-Rick White


Rick, had you made yourself clear, you'd have less ridicule. Common sence my friend,common sence. No disrespect


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