# My logical take on creation/evolution/Genesis.



## Kaendar (Aug 8, 2012)

Edit: dont know why single is spelled with a c... typo I missed.


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## mindphuk (Aug 8, 2012)

Claiming something is logical does not make it so.


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## Padawanbater2 (Aug 8, 2012)

OK, but all you provide for evidence is the bible. 

If the bible said humans wouldn't be burned by fire, would you stick your hand in it to see?


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## Kaendar (Aug 8, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> OK, but all you provide for evidence is the bible.
> 
> If the bible said humans wouldn't be burned by fire, would you stick your hand in it to see?


Of course, in order for this to work out, you have to believe in the bible as true. Which I do.


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## tyler.durden (Aug 8, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Edit: dont know why single is spelled with a c... typo I missed.


Wow. I think your illustration is missing quite a few steps between dust and that chimp. Why did god make all of these creatures without souls before Adam, did he get bored and wanted to spice things up? I'm a musician, and I think evolution happened more like this:


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## Kaendar (Aug 8, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Wow. I think your illustration is missing quite a few steps between dust and that chimp. Why did god make all of these creatures without souls before Adam, did he get bored and wanted to spice things up? I'm a musician, and I think evolution happened more like this:


Yea I did, its kinda hard to draw small organisms in MS paint lol.


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## Doer (Aug 8, 2012)

Sure, I'll stipulate that is exactly what happened. I'll stipulate that before about 70,000 BCE, there were no homo sapiens. We seem to have emerged from a great extinction event, a population bottleneck that doomed all lines but one Maternal line and from that only one Paternal line made it. I'll stipulate that human story telling by memory is much more persistent and accurate than printed writing.

Such persistence, that the stories of this fantastic human good luck, could make it into writing and therefore be horribly edited. And I can easily see how Divinity could be attributed to it and create the first foundation of what later became Abrahamic tradition. But, that doesn't prove Diety. It proves that we humans are funny creatures.

If we have the bit of open mind all things in the bible and other scriptures can, quite easily be explained. All the greed for power, position, to be believed, to try to do good. It's the story of Man. We are looking at ourselves here. What we want to be. And, how we fail.


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## cannabineer (Aug 8, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Of course, in order for this to work out, you have to believe in the bible as true. Which I do.


A big problem with this is that there is no legitimate "in between". You are trying to take a partial Biblical interpretation (which the Bible expressly forbids) and graft it onto the body of science (which is not equipped to deal with questions of Divinity, but is equipped to provide contrast and dissent to the Bible's accounts of mundane happenings). In the process, you dishonor both houses.

I have not been able to make the dictated Biblical account square with the derived scientific one. Worse, when I studied the Bible as an independent work, it showed me internal inconsistencies that put paid to any concept of an inerrant/infallible text, which is absolutely required to accept the Bible's central claim: to be the word of a God. (Conclusion: I reject it whole.)

You'll be told this by both the stewards of the sort of hardline Protestant philosophy you've embraced, and by the curators of science which you aren't representing well either:
you can't DO that.

My opinion. cn


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## Kaendar (Aug 8, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> A big problem with this is that there is no legitimate "in between". You are trying to take a partial Biblical interpretation (which the Bible expressly forbids) and graft it onto the body of science (which is not equipped to deal with questions of Divinity, but is equipped to provide contrast and dissent to the Bible's accounts of mundane happenings). In the process, you dishonor both houses.
> 
> I have not been able to make the dictated Biblical account square with the derived scientific one. Worse, when I studied the Bible as an independent work, it showed me internal inconsistencies that put paid to any concept of an inerrant/infallible text, which is absolutely required to accept the Bible's central claim: to be the word of a God. (Conclusion: I reject it whole.)
> 
> ...


Who cares what nutty people say? Non-theists are always saying shit like oh how did god create man from dust. Heres my answer. Take it or leave it.. its not that far fetched and I would put money on it being true.


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## cannabineer (Aug 8, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Who cares what nutty people say? Non-theists are always saying shit like oh how did god create man from dust. Heres my answer. Take it or leave it.. its not that far fetched and I would put money on it being true.


Which nutty people? 
My principal point here, which you have elected to ignore, is that you cannot have it both ways. You seem to lean more toward the Biblical than the scientific, so I'm biasing my analysis to the Biblical. And by the book's own rules:

you can't DO that. cn


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## Kaendar (Aug 8, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Which nutty people?
> My principal point here, which you have elected to ignore, is that you cannot have it both ways. You seem to lean more toward the Biblical than the scientific, so I'm biasing my analysis to the Biblical. And by the book's own rules:
> 
> *you can't DO that*. cn


Just did....


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## Padawanbater2 (Aug 8, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Who cares what nutty people say? Non-theists are always saying shit like oh how did god create man from dust. Heres my answer. Take it or leave it.. its not that far fetched and I would put money on it being true.


Would you bet your life on it?


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## Kaendar (Aug 8, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Would you bet your life on it?


Only you would come out with something like that lol.. life isnt a gamble, so no.


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## cannabineer (Aug 8, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Just did....


Saying so doesn't make it so. Having your facts straight ... it _matters_. cn


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## Padawanbater2 (Aug 8, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Only you would come out with something like that lol.. life isnt a gamble, so no.


Why not?



.d..d


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## shrxhky420 (Aug 8, 2012)

Kaendar is a nut who cares what he says??? stay high


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## Hepheastus420 (Aug 8, 2012)

How is it logical to assume we have a soul?


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## Doer (Aug 8, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Who cares what nutty people say? Non-theists are always saying shit like oh how did god create man from dust. Heres my answer. Take it or leave it.. its not that far fetched and I would put money on it being true.


There is little doubt our human bodies are wet dust. Star dust. But, it cannot be said how the wet dust started organizing electrical signals. So, there is no answer to Life. Cells divide, but at some un-known point, re-animation ceases to be possible, by current means.

Why alive? Why not? We don't know. That part is not dust. However, the perception of the human mind cannot be attributed to Deity nearly as easily as Deity can be attributed simply, to the human mind. I think it is a good thing. We are it. We have Perception. We are Creators.


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## cannabineer (Aug 8, 2012)

Doer said:


> There is little doubt our human bodies are wet dust. Star dust. But, it cannot be said how the wet dust started organizing electrical signals. So, there is no answer to Life. Cells divide, but at some un-known point, re-animation ceases to be possible, by current means.
> 
> Why alive? Why not? We don't know. That part is not dust. However, the perception of the human mind cannot be attributed to Deity nearly as easily as Deity can be attributed simply, to the human mind. I think it is a good thing. We are it. We have Perception. We are Creators.


That part may be dust as well. We don't know at this time. But I find the concept of spontaneous biogenesis ...appealing. It would support my belief that life is chemistry with ambition. cn


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 8, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> chemistry with ambition. cn


reen, yeh... Are you saying that chemistry is the vehicle _for_ ambition? I think some people say that God is 'desire'. I find it neat that when all else is stripped away, what is left is 'desire'. Sounds a little like ambition to me


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## cannabineer (Aug 9, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> reen, yeh... Are you saying that chemistry is the vehicle _for_ ambition? I think some people say that God is 'desire'. I find it neat that when all else is stripped away, what is left is 'desire'. Sounds a little like ambition to me


eye ... ( &#8592; I spelled your sobriquet backwards also ... didja notice? Huh? Huh??) 
... I was originally gonna say "chemistry with aspirations", but the trouble there is that "aspiration" is a technical term (for chemists and physics*) and I made a last-second word swap. 
But your proposition that chemistry might be the vehicle for ambition makes a certain sense to me. The dance of the neurons has chemistry as a pervasively, yea dominantly necessary component. There's also electricity, but i do not wish to become mired in the ambiguities of energy, lol!
The chemistry relies, in turn, on the affinities of "message" molecules for their atomic addresses. That energy of binding can be precisely quantified, and the energy not yet released by unbound molecules ... yes, desire, and very close to the scale at which quantum phenomenology becomes rather important. Dominance, desire, binding were all valuable terms in my former discipline. cn

* "physic" in the archaic sense of a rather hands-on medical practitioner. Barber. Amputician. Chirurgeon. That parses as "hand worker". Imagine if modern surgeons were aware of their being classified as manual laborers. Green collar.


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

I like studying creation science and it takes the Bible literally  No way do I belive we came from apes !


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## tyler.durden (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> I like studying creation science and it takes the Bible literally  No way do I belive we came from apes !


We _are_ apes. You my want to read some actual science...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 12, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> We _are_ apes. You my want to read some actual science...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape


I concur with Tyler. Read something, don't be afraid to learn about science. The more you know, the less afraid you have to be.


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

You can believe that if you want lol, I know what I believe thanks


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## BustinScales510 (Aug 12, 2012)

How does one study "creation science"? I mean I can understand if someone believes in creationism..but if you go that route,what exactly is there scientifically to analyze? I thought it was just "god created everything..there ya go" The terms appear to be mutually exclusive.


konagirl420 said:


> I like studying creation science and it takes the Bible literally  No way do I belive we came from apes !


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

The same way one studies evolution, they are both faith based claims and there is scientific evidence to support the Bible  evolution takes a lot more faith to believe in than creation, just depends what evidence you choose to believe  there are many books written on creation science that have the scientific evidence to back them up.


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## Padawanbater2 (Aug 12, 2012)

What positive claims does creation science make that can be verified?

For instance, unless I'm mistaken, one claim is generally that the earth is between 6,000-10,000 years old. We can verify and actually measure how old the Earth is, proving it's far far greater than only 6,000-10,000 years old. So what claims like that does creationism make that come out to be true?


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## cannabineer (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> The same way one studies evolution, they are both faith based claims and there is scientific evidence to support the Bible  evolution takes a lot more faith to believe in than creation, just depends what evidence you choose to believe  there are many books written on creation science that have the scientific evidence to back them up.


Evolution is not a faith-based claim. That is actually propaganda from creationists. Everything about evolution science says "disprove me if you can!" Creation science, being ultimately based on doctrine, does not have that built0in reality check. cn


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 12, 2012)

...I don't know that a logical take on creation really works. We can have a logical take on the creation, but not the creator. We're always a step behind creation and we end up observing it. I think that's just the way it goes.

...some say that if you mix your mind and your heart together you can 'see' better. It has a lot to do with sex, and we're only 'loaded' ) ) with that potential - we didn't make it. In fact, it made us.


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

Those tests are flawed in nature they are not as "scientific" as they want the masses to think they explain it in all the science terms in the books, they have even proposed teaching creation science along with evolution in some states.


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

You can believe in evolution that's cool, but not a single fossil has ever been found of any creature in any state or any form of "evolving" thus there is absolutely no way to "prove" evolution.


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## Kaendar (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> You can believe in evolution that's cool, but not a single fossil has ever been found of any creature in any state or any form of "evolving" thus there is absolutely no way to "prove" evolution.


Im a theist, and I cant say that evolution doesnt happen. Evolution is something that constantly happens as animals are exposed to new conditions. A species will evolve to better suit there living conditions, they dont just go extinct (usually). Look at legless lizards or walking, air breathing fish. Those are animals that are right in the middle of evolution. Even ocean mammals like whales and dolphins have small bones that used to be from legs.


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

That is called adaption


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## cannabineer (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> You can believe in evolution that's cool, but not a single fossil has ever been found of any creature in any state or any form of "evolving" thus there is absolutely no way to "prove" evolution.


If you read Dawkins "The Ancestor's Tale" you will see that what you have there is a loaded question ... it's the sort of thing only creationists say, as it can so easily be proven wrong. We are surrounded by species in transition; it's just that the historic timeframe is too quick to show the changes ... with one spectacular exception: livestock and pets. They truly do showcase evolution in action. cn


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

No fossil has ever been found that was half man half monkey with all the so called "evolving" that was going on surely we would have found some huh ?


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## Kaendar (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> That is called adaption


Evolution _is_ adaptation, for the most part. Anytime a species of animals DNA changes so that their bodies adapt more to their environment they have evolved, even if its a few extra layers of fat to protect from cold.


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## Kaendar (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> No fossil has ever been found that was half man half monkey with all the so called "evolving" that was going on surely we would have found some huh ?


Well anybody could say that because its a process that happens gradually over thousands or sometimes millions of years.. I believe in god, im sure you know this, but I also believe that animals evolve. It would be stupid to say they dont. The thing that seperated man from monkey was the soul that god gave him.


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## Doer (Aug 12, 2012)

No one of any right mind, without agenda, ever said that man "came from" apes. It is quite obvious we did not. We are a creature that survived just barely when other creatures did not. So, we are not like other species. We have no genetic diversity, to speak of. We are not actually a species, in that way.

We are the last family to survive. So, no, not from apes. Molded in an entirely different way, I think. The genetic markers are pretty clear. The species, homo sapiens was wiped out a long time ago. We are just the last, lonely family of man, wondering what comes next...and trying to get ready. Get this precious DNA out of the gravity well. We are endangered, IMO. It's a dangerous family feud, that could kill us all. Maybe when we understand that, and not the divisiveness of Religion, things can get better.


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

You can belive what you want, I know what I believe adaption and evolution are two different things, and if your theory were true then there still would be at least a few fossils of animals with both scales and feathers or humans and apes lol, either way it's all about what evidence you want to believe they are both faith based theory's


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## cannabineer (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> No fossil has ever been found that was half man half monkey with all the so called "evolving" that was going on surely we would have found some huh ?


No fossil of that sort can be found. The line of monkeys and apes diverged millions of years ago. Every line of life on earth, be it H. sap or E. coli, is equally ancient, and has danced the molecular dance of unending change every day. 
The question you pose is once again the product not of science, but a setup designed to ridicule the actual science. If you read about mammalian evolution (I recommended a very good starting text) you'll find that scientists don't ask that question because it makes no sense. As such, the only reason it holds such power as a challenge to evolution is ... because the lay public doesn't study the biology, and is unequipped to realize that the creation scientists are pulling a fast one. In the early Enlightenment this intellectual game of three-card monte was called "jesuitry" after its finest practitioners. Today, the culture of jesuir=try has been taken up by the fundamentalists. cn


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

Even Darwin knows his theory made no sense, but you can believe it  and I will believe what I believe, no worries !


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## Kaendar (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> You can belive what you want, I know what I believe adaption and evolution are two different things, and if your theory were true then there still would be at least a few fossils of animals with both scales and feathers or humans and apes lol, either way it's all about what evidence you want to believe they are both faith based theory's


LMAO. You think evolution happens that quick? You need to read more. And actually, there have been lizard fossils found with feathers, I guess you need to some more research.


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## Doer (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> You can belive what you want, I know what I believe adaption and evolution are two different things, and if your theory were true then there still would be at least a few fossils of animals with both scales and feathers or humans and apes lol, either way it's all about what evidence you want to believe they are both faith based theory's


Well, religion is for those that prefer a story to discovery. You don't want to know. I don't believe anything other than verifiable scientific evidence that can withstand all but religious de-compostion. Ignorance is bliss, as they say, but knowledge is power. The ideas you have about the fossil evidence are not support by the fossil evidence, sorry to disappoint. And fossils are poor evidence when we can study living DNA from all over the world. 

And btw, there are plenty of fossils of lizards with feathers and scales. Perfect specimens in shale layers. There is plenty of fossil evidence of up-right homnids, older and older, now back 3.x million years. Ankle bones and pelvis like a modern. 

It's just that you don't want to know, that fine. It would rock your world and it's as close as Google. It's why your religion invented the Devil, to be sure that you would not educate yourself out of fear. But, it's OK. Belief is a warm cocoon of fantasy to get through life. Everyone gets choice. (or do they?)


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## cannabineer (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> Even Darwin knows his theory made no sense, but you can belive it  and I will belive what I believe, no worries !


The trouble comes when you introduce facts that don't stand up to scrutiny. Have you read Darwin? From where do you get the concept that "even Darwin knew ..."? I learned the opposite as fact, by going to the original texts. I get the feeling that you are uncritically repeating rather contestible "facts" from doctrinaire sources ... _who are lying to you_. Here's something you won't typically hear from doctrinaires: read all available versions, and see which fits best. cn


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

No I belive God created humans I don't belive in evolution lol


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## Kaendar (Aug 12, 2012)

Its frustrating to know that there are people out there that think like this. Some people feel that way about me, because my logic is faith based, and theirs is from a non-theist viewpoint, but Konagirls logic is based on idk wat... to say that adaptation and evolution are different is ignoring the world that you live in. Its denying the way that god created animals DNA to be able to evolve and adapt to suit their environments. Like I said, dolphins and mammals were once land walking animals, and most snake species evolved from lizards (maybe its the other way around, not sure).


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## Kaendar (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> No I belive God created humans I don't belive in evolution lol


God did create humans, and he created every other living thing as well. I think you should take a few days and really think about this stuff.


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 12, 2012)

Doer - discovery _within_ the story. Sht happens  There's a whole other 'love affair' that permeates this life - it was there long before me.


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## cannabineer (Aug 12, 2012)

Doer said:


> Well, religion is for those that prefer a story to discovery. You don't want to know. I don't believe anything other than verifiable scientific evidence that can withstand all but religious de-compostion. Ignorance is bliss, as they say, but knowledge is power. The ideas you have about the fossil evidence are not support by the fossil evidence, sorry to disappoint. And fossils are poor evidence when we can study living DNA from all over the world.
> 
> And btw, there are plenty of fossils of lizards with feathers and scales. Perfect specimens in shale layers. There is plenty of fossil evidence of up-right homnids, older and older, now back 3.x million years. Ankle bones and pelvis like a modern.
> 
> It's just that you don't want to know, that fine. It would rock your world and it's as close as Google. It's why your religion invented the Devil, to be sure that you would not educate yourself out of fear. But, it's OK. Belief is a warm cocoon of fantasy to get through life. Everyone gets choice. (or do they?)


Discovery is story as well, since it is a human tale of the history of both the finds and the ideas generated to explain them. It can be argued that all science is a humanity. It's just the the term has been appropriated, narrowed, by vaguely jealous students of literature and human history. Until those upstart Cartesians and Newtonians, history and divinity were the queens of human learning. cn


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

You can believe what you want and I will belive what I want  no worries


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## Kaendar (Aug 12, 2012)

Konagirl, how do you explain different skin colors? Because that is a form of evolution right there.


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## Kaendar (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> You can believe what you want and I will belive what I want  no worries


There are worries, because you cant walk around as an adult person thinking that the world around you is impossible. You might as well believe in Santa Clause and the easter bunny.


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## Doer (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> Even Darwin knows his theory made no sense, but you can believe it  and I will believe what I believe, no worries !


More Bliss. If you will go this far, I must ask for a reference. The rabid Christian power complex shredded his theory as soon as it was published. I doubt very much, that you know anything about Darwin or what he proposed. I know he never doubted it. But, the stupidly of dogma, to doom the man to hell for all times is just the viciousness of Christianity. And now you say he re-canted. Poppycock. A thrall of the church, you are, yesssssss. Spreading lies.


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## cannabineer (Aug 12, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Its frustrating to know that there are people out there that think like this. Some people feel that way about me, because my logic is faith based, and theirs is from a non-theist viewpoint, but Konagirls logic is based on idk wat... to say that adaptation and evolution are different is ignoring the world that you live in. Its denying the way that god created animals DNA to be able to evolve and adapt to suit their environments. Like I said, dolphins and mammals were once land walking animals, and most snake species evolved from lizards (maybe its the other way around, not sure).


Kona's logic is based in articles of faith as well. The difficulty arises when she accepts falsehoods about science from the very same teachers she's entrusted her spiritual and ecclesiastical education. The principal difference in my sight between her reason and yours is a somewhat different set of non-negotiable faith-derived premises. Logic is merely the operation upon those premises to deduce the deductible. I do not trust doctrinaires to a) know science, or b) to honestly vonvey what they know. There is a conflict of interest whenever doctrine and derived learning clash. cn


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

Lol no just God


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 12, 2012)

...oh dear, even the catholics are in on it:

"[...]while the Church had been hostile to Darwin's theory in the past, the idea of evolution could be traced to St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas.

Father Giuseppe Tanzella-Nitti, Professor of Theology at the Pontifical Santa Croce University in Rome, added that 4th century theologian St Augustine had "never heard the term evolution, but knew that big fish eat smaller fish" and forms of life had been transformed "slowly over time" shock. Aquinas made similar observations in the Middle Ages."


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

The Bible is all I need the other books are just intersting !


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 12, 2012)

...the book is you. You are all you need. Yes  It's a metaphor for looking inside to find 'the truth'.


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

Hehe it is you all I feel sorry for I know the truth so I don't have to sit here and answer questions you can google them if you want all I did was say what I believe


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## UncleBuck (Aug 12, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Of course, in order for this to work out, you have to believe in the bible as true. Which I do.


seen any talking snakes around recently?


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## Doer (Aug 12, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Discovery is story as well, since it is a human tale of the history of both the finds and the ideas generated to explain them. It can be argued that all science is a humanity. It's just the the term has been appropriated, narrowed, by vaguely jealous students of literature and human history. Until those upstart Cartesians and Newtonians, history and divinity were the queens of human learning. cn


And before that, oral story telling. Word for word. Generations beyond generations. I don't think we can leave out Aristotle, can we? Bronze and stone works? Masonic and Painter Guilds. All the carefully won and guarded knowledge of how things work. All are opposed by religion unless you kowtow to the ridiculous. I mean, if the Bible is the word of God, why so stupid? Why is God trying so hard to dumb us down?

There was a lot of knowledge, close kept. Writing allows organization of power. Power of repeatable science and power of fear. Printing the Bible? Priceless. The Gutenberg collision with reason. The Politics, by Aristotle, IMO, could have put us on a much better track, perhaps. The story of man is a two story house, I think. It's the story of Reason and Fear.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> Hehe it is you all I feel sorry for I know the truth so I don't have to sit here and answer questions you can google them if you want all I did was say what I believe


Im not even Christian, and I know Jesus loves me more =p


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## Doer (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> Hehe it is you all I feel sorry for I know the truth so I don't have to sit here and answer questions you can google them if you want all I did was say what I believe


There you go. Claiming you have special knowledge and now you feel sorry? Can I get a damnation? You too can google.


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

Jesus loves everyone  but I know He loves me !


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

Lol I never claimed anything special except knowing the truth hahaha


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## tyler.durden (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> Lol I never claimed anything special except knowing the truth hahaha


Are you just trolling, or are you genuinely this ignorant? We know what you know, but you do not know what we know. If you read the actual scientific facts (Ancestor's Tale is a great start for a layperson like yourself), you'd at least know what you are arguing against. There are amazing theistic minds out there that can very effectively make your arguments, mainly because they are familiar with the actual data. You seem to have the comfort of belief and opinion without the effort of thought. Grow up...


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## cannabineer (Aug 12, 2012)




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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Aug 12, 2012)

I think if you read the bible, you'd know its not the truth. If the bible was the truth then you'd have to shut the fuck up, the bible says women dont have the right to speak unless requested to. The bible also says if a virgin is raped then the person who raped her has to be her husband. The bible promotes hate and ignorance, but there is tiny bits of truth in the bible.


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

I am def not a troll and yes I believe that the Bible is God's word


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

That's the old testiment, Jesus has died and paid the price for everyone's sin now and you are the one that is misinformed


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## Padawanbater2 (Aug 12, 2012)

@ kona, you understand while belief is subjective to each individual, reality and the tools we use to understand it (science) are true whether anyone believes them or not, right? You believing the sky is red doesn't change the fact that the sky is blue..

This is the major benefit science has over faith. If mankind went extinct tomorrow and another intelligent species arose millions of years later, science would still be the same. But if humanity went extinct, how sure are you that Christianity would arise exactly the same way? (doesn't that say a lot about the truth behind Christianity?)


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

Sounds like you are the hateful one to me !


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## Kaendar (Aug 12, 2012)




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## tyler.durden (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> That's the old testiment, Jesus has died and paid the price for everyone's sin now and you are the one that is misinformed


[video=youtube;I4R4VMMTyGc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4R4VMMTyGc[/video]


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

I am not asking anyone to to "convert " I have the right to believe what I believe and so do you  I have seen too many things and been through too many things in my life not to believe thanks so I have made my choice nothing you could say or do would change my mind


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> That's the old testiment, Jesus has died and paid the price for everyone's sin now and you are the one that is misinformed


I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man, she must be silent.... NEW TESTAMENT.


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## Kaendar (Aug 12, 2012)

Kona, please stop while you can. You are making theists look bad. You have to realize that while the bible is true, some of it should not be taken quite literally, or at least be aware that in some of the parts like genesis, alot of the details are left out. For example, god didnt create the universe in 7 human days, he created it in 7 of his days, which means billions of years.


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

And there is scientific evidence to support the Bible, nothing has ever disproved it


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

I could care less what you think!


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## Doer (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> Lol I never claimed anything special except knowing the truth hahaha


But, you don't. You claim truth with no knowledge.


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## Doer (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> And there is scientific evidence to support the Bible, nothing has ever disproved it


There is no evidence. It has all been tamper with, by Christians. There is no record of Jesus. It is all a fabrication. That's the evidence.


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## Doer (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> That's the old testiment, Jesus has died and paid the price for everyone's sin now and you are the one that is misinformed


Someone made that up and you were taught. No sin. Made up. No need to be saved. All made up. Invent sin for power and people still buy it.


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> I am not asking anyone to to "convert " I have the right to believe what I believe and so do you  I have seen too many things and been through too many things in my life not to believe thanks so I have made my choice nothing you could say or do would change my mind


Just becuase you beleive something is true, does not make it true. 


If you cannot accept the *fact* that what you believe... has the possability of being wrong, then you do not belong in the philosophy forum.


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## tyler.durden (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> I am not asking anyone to to "convert " I have the right to believe what I believe and so do you  I have seen too many things and been through too many things in my life not to believe thanks so I have made my choice *nothing you could say or do would change my mind *




Ah, there we go. You realize that if your statement is true and your beliefs are erroneous, you can never correct them...


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> I could care less what you think!


I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man, she must be silent. <<--- Be a true believe and listen to the NEW TESTAMENT.


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

Have fun in hell


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## Doer (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> Have fun in hell


I knew we could get a damnation out of this. Hell is made up. Damnation is made up. So, finally the pettiness of the religion is revealed...again.


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## Chief Walkin Eagle (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> Have fun in hell


Pope John Paul announced at the Vatican in 1999 that there was no hell, it was made up to scare people into believing. He said you create your own hell inside your head, much like you can create your own heaven.


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

Like I said believe what you want we will see in the end huh ??


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## Doer (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> Like I said believe what you want we will see in the end huh ??


She smugly scoffs. That's the cult logic you will always win. I so do understand.


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> Like I said believe what you want we will see in the end huh ??


If you cannot accept the *fact* that what you believe... has the possability of being wrong, then you do not belong in the philosophy forum.


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## Padawanbater2 (Aug 12, 2012)

kona, do you mind if I ask a little bit about your background?

How old are you?

Where were you born/where did you grow up?

Have you always been religious?

Is your mother and father religious?

Do you attend church?

Do you mind if I ask how old you are, and of what nationality?

These are all just things that will help me pinpoint the demographic..

Also, what are your thoughts on my previous post about subjective v. objective reality, stuff we can measure and stuff that we can't? 

What if your beliefs cause other people harm, even though you feel they're correct, do you feel that's somewhat of a necessary evil in that they don't follow the same things, the truth, so whatever happens to them is justified?

Please take the time and actually think about and answer these questions for me, I'm just trying to find out more about this viewpoint.


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## konagirl420 (Aug 12, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> If you cannot accept the *fact* that what you believe... has the possability of being wrong, then you do not belong in the philosophy forum.


Same to you


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 12, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> Same to you


The only thing i am certain of in this existence, is my uncertainty. I know that i know nothing, i merely harbor ideas, nothing more... nothing less.


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## Doer (Aug 13, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> The only thing i am certain of in this existence, is my uncertainty. I know that i know nothing, i merely harbor ideas, nothing more... nothing less.


Here we are, in beautiful Idea Village. As we can see, it's situated quite pristinely on the very edge of Idea Harbor.


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## Dislexicmidget2021 (Aug 13, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> Hehe it is you all I feel sorry for I know the truth so I don't have to sit here and answer questions you can google them if you want all I did was say what I believe



The only truth is self truth of what is true in your own perspective it dosent go outside of your own subjectivity to become Universal truth unto all, truth can not be the same as fact they are quite distinctive.


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 13, 2012)

Dislexicmidget2021 said:


> The only truth is self truth of what is true in your own perspective it dosent go outside of your own subjectivity to become Universal truth unto all, truth can not be the same as fact they are quite distinctive.


You deserve rep for this, id give some to you, but you've taken too much from me already


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## Heisenberg (Aug 13, 2012)

You guys are debating someone who pulls stuff off of a shelf they keep inside of their ass. She has limitless bullshit to draw from, while you guys are shackled by things like logical consistency and facts. You guys are limited by not being able to say something completely random and blame it on google. Imagine if you had the freedom to say something like "science disproved God back in 1947", or "even Jesus believed Darwin's theory would pan out". What if we could just say they found a half man half monkey skeleton inside of Jesus's tomb wearing a medallion that said 'There is no god'? If winning a 'debate' were my goal, then I certainly wouldn't want to be on the side of the truth.


&#8220;All I&#8217;m arguing for really is that we should have a conversation where the best ideas really thrive, where there&#8217;s no taboo against criticizing bad ideas, and where everyone who shows up, in order to get their ideas entertained, has to meet some obvious burdens of intellectual rigor and self-criticism and honesty&#8212;and when people fail to do that, we are free to stop listening to them. What religion has had up until this moment is a different set of rules that apply only to it, which is you have to respect my religious certainty even though I&#8217;m telling you I arrived at it irrationally.&#8221; 
&#8213; Sam Harris


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## BA142 (Aug 13, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Kona, please stop while you can. You are making theists look bad. You have to realize that while the bible is true, some of it should not be taken quite literally, or at least be aware that in some of the parts like genesis, alot of the details are left out. For example, god didnt create the universe in 7 human days, he created it in 7 of his days, which means billions of years.


That's the most retarded thing I've ever read. I hope you're trolling.


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## InCognition (Aug 14, 2012)

konagirl420 said:


> That is called adaption


It's also called evolution.

Evolution is very proven scientifically. It's not refutable.

Some humans just like to remove humans from the equation of evolution, based on a "thought" written in a book. That's a pretty closed-minded approach in regards to looking into the subject.

This is where religion is dangerous and very much so ignorant... ignoring factual evidence on the premise of random writings, done by some random person.

There simply is no fact in a random book saying creationism is fact. However, when science systematically proves evolution among many species, based on none other than, the laws of which our known reality is bound to, that is fact.


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## InCognition (Aug 14, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Kona, please stop while you can. You are making theists look bad. *You have to realize that while the bible is true, some of it should not be taken quite literally*, or at least be aware that in some of the parts like genesis, alot of the details are left out. For example, god didnt create the universe in 7 human days, he created it in 7 of his days, which means billions of years.


Lol.

What this? Someone who has a knowledge superior enough to hard-stamp the bible as factual? How would one be absolutely sure of the words written in ink, on a piece of paper?

Enlighten me. I wish to obtain this superior knowledge that allows me to irrefutably stamp potential fairy-tales, as cold, hard, truth.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 14, 2012)

InCognition said:


> It's also called evolution.
> 
> Evolution is very proven scientifically. It's not refutable.
> 
> ...


"The success of science often comes at the expense of religious dogma; the maintenance of religious dogma always comes at the expense of science.&#8221; 
&#8213; Sam Harris


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 14, 2012)

InCognition said:


> Lol.
> 
> What this? Someone who has a knowledge superior enough to hard-stamp the bible as factual? How would one be absolutely sure of the words written in ink, on a piece of paper?
> 
> Enlighten me. I wish to obtain this superior knowledge that allows me to irrefutably stamp potential fairy-tales, as cold, hard, truth.


The Bible is a lot like those online Terms of Use Agreements. People say they agree with it, but very few people actually read it.


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 14, 2012)

This is so right, and made me laugh so hard!


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 14, 2012)

InCognition said:


> Lol.
> 
> What this? Someone who has a knowledge superior enough to hard-stamp the bible as factual? How would one be absolutely sure of the words written in ink, on a piece of paper?
> 
> Enlighten me. I wish to obtain this superior knowledge that allows me to irrefutably stamp potential fairy-tales, as cold, hard, truth.


...holy irony - your signature just nix'd your post


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## InCognition (Aug 14, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...holy irony - your signature just nix'd your post


I don't see how it has? Tell me please.


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 14, 2012)

InCognition said:


> I don't see how it has? Tell me please.


...well, it appeared as though you were writing as if you had the upper hand in knowledge over the believer. So, in effect, you were violating a person's natural human right to believe in what they want to believe - or to entertain as much knowledge as they can given their entire set of unique circumstances. Should that person respond, the ensuing barrage of reason would certainly drip from the forum ceiling after a while. And so on... 

...but really, I meant the  part as a reference to the tongue and cheek nature of my post.


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## InCognition (Aug 14, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...well, it appeared as though you were writing as if you had the upper hand in knowledge over the believer. So, in effect, you were violating a person's natural human right to believe in what they want to believe - or to entertain as much knowledge as they can given their entire set of unique circumstances. Should that person respond, the ensuing barrage of reason would certainly drip from the forum ceiling after a while. And so on...
> 
> ...but really, I meant the  part as a reference to the tongue and cheek nature of my post.


I see what you're trying very hard to say, but no.... just no. I'm not denying anyone anything. You have a right to believe in a book & ink, just as I have the right to believe in fossilized evidence of evolution.

At the end of the day they are two opinions with a different foundation, though one "opinion" has quite a bit more credibility as it partially proves what it's attempting to argue. Neither opinion answers everything, and they never will.

No one has an upper hand over anyone, because the fact is science nor books we call "religion" will ever answer the real question.


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## cannabineer (Aug 14, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...well, it appeared as though you were writing as if you had the upper hand in knowledge over the believer. So, in effect, you were violating a person's natural human right to believe in what they want to believe - or to entertain as much knowledge as they can given their entire set of unique circumstances. Should that person respond, the ensuing barrage of reason would certainly drip from the forum ceiling after a while. And so on...
> 
> ...but really, I meant the  part as a reference to the tongue and cheek nature of my post.


Your post made me reread InCognition's, but I saw he properly conditionalized it. cn


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 15, 2012)

InCognition said:


> I see what you're trying very hard to say, but no.... just no. I'm not denying anyone anything. You have a right to believe in a book & ink, just as I have the right to believe in fossilized evidence of evolution.
> 
> At the end of the day they are two opinions with a different foundation, though one "opinion" has quite a bit more credibility as it partially proves what it's attempting to argue. Neither opinion answers everything, and they never will.
> 
> No one has an upper hand over anyone, because the fact is science nor books we call "religion" will ever answer the real question.


...awesome post, thanks for that. You're right, neither can prove to you what you already know inside. But, it's obvious that they help though.

...and it was no effort at all, really. I didn't 'try', I just wrote. Old enough to know that trying brings less than simply being


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 15, 2012)

This will clear up a few things.


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 15, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> This will clear up a few things.




...sorry, couldn't resist


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## dtp5150 (Aug 15, 2012)

what a stupid thread started by a moron


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## Omgwtfbbq Indicaman (Aug 15, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Who cares what nutty people say? Non-theists are always saying shit like oh how did god create man from dust. Heres my answer. Take it or leave it.. its not that far fetched and I would put money on it being true.


aka- I'm just pretending to know what i'm talking about, i have not researched the subject because my parents indoctrinated me into believing it was done by my imaginary friend. and they have a nifty book that other's have been duped into believing for the last 2000+ years.


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## Zaehet Strife (Aug 15, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> View attachment 2295758
> 
> ...sorry, couldn't resist


You forgot the IM, before balance.


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 15, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> You forgot the IM, before balance.



...I accept the validity of the scientific method. It's just that I happen to think that it was already 'in the air' before we witnessed / harnessed it...is all. So, to be fair, I'll add NO to that, with a - afterward, then your bit, then the rest of my bit (to be fair to the actual content of this exchange).


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## cybasolja (Aug 17, 2012)

When one states that the bible was written by man you always get it was inspired by god and that it's divine and the only truth but Google Bible Contradictions and tell what you make of it.


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 17, 2012)

cybasolja said:


> When one states that the bible was written by man you always get it was inspired by god and that it's divine and the only truth but Google Bible Contradictions and tell what you make of it.


...have you ever heard a song that you felt was inspired by something?


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 17, 2012)

cybasolja said:


> When one states that the bible was written by man you always get it was inspired by god and that it's divine and the only truth but Google Bible Contradictions and tell what you make of it.


...have you ever loved someone and hated them at the same time?


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## cannabineer (Aug 17, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...have you ever loved someone and hated them at the same time?


...Do you like watching gladiator movies? cn


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## chongsbuddy (Aug 17, 2012)

if you talk logic then you believe in science,if you talk faith you believe in the bible!because to be quite honest thee is nothing really logical about the bible.its all faith..


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## cannabineer (Aug 17, 2012)

chongsbuddy said:


> if you talk logic then you believe in science,if you talk faith you believe in the bible!because to be quite honest thee is nothing really logical about the bible.its all faith..


Logic is a process. It operates upon premises that need to be supplied by extralogical means. Reason is a great tool, but it is not the entire workshop. cn


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> ...Do you like watching gladiator movies? cn


...weddings?


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## cannabineer (Aug 19, 2012)

Sorry (he giggled unrepentantly) ... for some reasons I was reminded of a string of unsavory questions from "Airplane". cn


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 19, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Sorry (he giggled unrepentantly) ... for some reasons I was reminded of a string of unsavory questions from "Airplane". cn


...those were the good old days of movies (for me), _beta!_


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## UncleBuck (Aug 19, 2012)

ever been in a turkish prison?


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## Samwell Seed Well (Aug 19, 2012)

Kaendar said:


> Edit: dont know why single is spelled with a c... typo I missed.


i dont get it, the "original man was from Africa" . . . .why is he white?

and keandar, do you believe in a white jesus . . if not then why do you believe the church, if so . . . ha ha

has special K abandoned his logic . . .. i mean thread


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## cannabineer (Aug 19, 2012)

UncleBuck said:


> ever been in a turkish prison?


Did you ever hang around gymnasiums? cn


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