# 4x8 or 5x9 Gorilla Tent and Yield?



## ProAmateur (Mar 12, 2017)

I have been researching and reading as much as I can on an indoor setup that will bring me close to .5-1lb/plant. With little to no experience indoors, I have run into a problem choosing the size of my tent.

*Originally my planned setup was this:*
5x5 Gorilla Grow Tent
LEC 630W Sun System Fixture(Air cooled)
8" Hyper fan(stealth) - 710CFM rating
Active Air Carbon FIlter 8"x24" - 750CFM
ThermoFLo SR Ducting
...and accessories like hygrometer, hurricane fan, etc...
6-8 plants in red cups, then 3gal GeoPots, to 7gal Geo, to 10gal Geo.
Using Roots Organics/perlite with supplemental AN nutes - piranha, voodoo, B52, Overdrive, bud igniter, and flush

Now, I am looking into a 4x8 or a 5x9 Gorilla Tent setup with same number of plants, and using 2-LEC 630W fixtures(maybe adding a third later). I like the extra foot on each corner for the 5x9 but get better watt/sqft and lumen/sqft with 4x8.

My apologies for the windy thread, aiming for most information for a more accurate answer.

I have calculated the 630w and don't like the watt/sqft answer in the 5x9. But using the specs from the website with a 4x4 footprint and being compared to 1200w hps = 1- 630W fixture, it looks nice on paper when calculating it as 1200 watts.

So here is my question, would I be able to pull close to 4-5 pounds with a decent veg time, in a 5x9 or 4x8 tent utilizing 2-630w fixture-LEC growing 6-8 plants(gorilla glue, Jock Horror, Headband) Sativa dominant strains, in 7-10 gallon pots in 1 grow?

Which tent size would you recommend for what I am aiming to do???

Thank you for your inputs and advice.


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## cookie master (Mar 12, 2017)

10 feet by 10 feet, and 5000 watts hps. You sound super greedy expecting the results you described.


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## luv2grow (Mar 12, 2017)

I have never heard of a single grower saying they have too much space. 
With that said... Don't just focus on sq /lumens per watt. that is great that you have got there already but you have one thing that hasn't been mentioned. What training style do you run? Straight loli, sog, a style of scrog? 
I run scrog and shoot for a p a plant on my sativa dom plants in a 28x28" screen using a 600w on a rail so yeah It can be done.
So honestly I'd go with a 5x9 tent its in the budget. Worst case scenario you throw in a light rail and call it a day.


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## chemphlegm (Mar 12, 2017)

more room is always better, work space, etc. same amount of plants, more room is all.
if you were packing every square inch of the floor with plants then calculating every square inch for light would make sense.
you wont get this expected yield your first time around. Temperatures and humidity will scare you, suffer plants, feeding may be difficult as it is for many newbies here. odor is going to be troublesome and when your girl friend breaks up with you......it gets worse.


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## cookie master (Mar 12, 2017)

He said he want 4-5 lbs off 1200 watts, in a small tent with little to no indoor experience...

I would go with the 5x9 and if you want lec then 3 of them. You wont get 4-5 lbs of dank though.


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## ProAmateur (Mar 12, 2017)

cookie master said:


> 10 feet by 10 feet, and 5000 watts hps. You sound super greedy expecting the results you described.


Cookie Master, you are obviously the nae sayer, and the negative energy in this thread. If you have done any research or know good growers. You would understand that 3+ pounds can be pulled from a 4x8 tent with 4 plants. I aim for this goal because I am optimistic(not greedy) and have people that need the medicine. A close friend for example, has had an eye replaced and is with glaucoma. So for you to judge so quickly, and to promote negativity in my thread, only proves you a fool. Keep your comments to yourself, they are not needed here.


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## ProAmateur (Mar 12, 2017)

luv2grow said:


> I have never heard of a single grower saying they have too much space.
> With that said... Don't just focus on sq /lumens per watt. that is great that you have got there already but you have one thing that hasn't been mentioned. What training style do you run? Straight loli, sog, a style of scrog?
> I run scrog and shoot for a p a plant on my sativa dom plants in a 28x28" screen using a 600w on a rail so yeah It can be done.
> So honestly I'd go with a 5x9 tent its in the budget. Worst case scenario you throw in a light rail and call it a day.


I haven't crossed that bridge on training method yet, but have pondered the idea of SCROG, it is something I have looked into. I have also watched a few videos on topping and allowing the plants to grow while supporting the colas with sticks; although it is not recommended because of damage to the root system from what I understand. Thanks for your advice.

...and thanks for answering my question; 5x9 it is.


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## ProAmateur (Mar 12, 2017)

chemphlegm said:


> more room is always better, work space, etc. same amount of plants, more room is all.
> if you were packing every square inch of the floor with plants then calculating every square inch for light would make sense.
> you wont get this expected yield your first time around. Temperatures and humidity will scare you, suffer plants, feeding may be difficult as it is for many newbies here. odor is going to be troublesome and when your girl friend breaks up with you......it gets worse.


Proper feeding of the plants has been a strong consideration, from what I understand Sativas have an extremely sensitive root system with nutes, ph changes, and too much nitrogen. I understand that I will have mishaps and will need to fine tune things, but I have set a goal, and will reach that goal...eventually. I plan on setting everything up and running the tent for a few days to try and balance temperature, and humidity prior to starting plants. Figured I would throw a humidifier in there and use the inline fan to equal it out for example(although it prolly won't be too healthy on the carbon filter) Thanks for the input on calculating the light with plants, that puts my mind at ease with these LEC's, I chose them for efficiency and heat(roughly 2200 BTU's per 630 watts).


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## Lightgreen2k (Mar 12, 2017)

ProAmateur said:


> Proper feeding of the plants has been a strong consideration, from what I understand Sativas have an extremely sensitive root system with nutes, ph changes, and too much nitrogen. I understand that I will have mishaps and will need to fine tune things, but I have set a goal, and will reach that goal...eventually. I plan on setting everything up and running the tent for a few days to try and balance temperature, and humidity prior to starting plants. Figured I would throw a humidifier in there and use the inline fan to equal it out for example(although it prolly won't be too healthy on the carbon filter) Thanks for the input on calculating the light with plants, that puts my mind at ease with these LEC's, I chose them for efficiency and heat(roughly 2200 BTU's per 630 watts).


Cookie Monster was not exactly being negative, more like being realistic. Lets scale this down, most people using a 4x4 tent with a 600 watt lamp are hitting anywhere between a half pound to maybe pound and a half. 8 oz to 24 oz in 4x4. Now saw you have your 4x8 that is still 48 oz or 3 pounds.

What strains do you have, and have you, and when do you want to do this?


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## ProAmateur (Mar 12, 2017)

Yeah, I realized that after venting, so Cookie Master, my apologies I assure you. I'll be the fool for today. I've been trying to fix the title from 4x4 to 4x8. I currently have the Jock Horror strain from Nirvana, and will be getting a few strains such as Gorilla Glue, and Gorilla Cookies from Elev8 seed bank. I have read really good reviews on them. I am interested in getting going as soon as possible. I grew 5 plants(unknown strains) once to 4' tall in five gallon buckets using a 150watt reptile spot lamp, and bouncing it over each plant from time to time. Unfortunately, the landlord decided to make an appearance, so I had to trash them asap. I have a deep passion for growing the herb I found out. I have given myself a time frame of 5 months after this month to acquire everything for the grow. Right now I am still studying and choosing the equipment during the time of this thread. The only changes will be a 5x9, maybe a 10" hyper fan, and a 1200CFM filter.


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## Lightgreen2k (Mar 12, 2017)

ProAmateur said:


> Yeah, I realized that after venting, so Cookie Master, my apologies I assure you. I'll be the fool for today. I've been trying to fix the title from 4x4 to 4x8. I currently have the Jock Horror strain from Nirvana, and will be getting a few strains such as Gorilla Glue, and Gorilla Cookies from Elev8 seed bank. I have read really good reviews on them. I am interested in getting going as soon as possible. I grew 5 plants(unknown strains) once to 4' tall in five gallon buckets using a 150watt reptile spot lamp, and bouncing it over each plant from time to time. Unfortunately, the landlord decided to make an appearance, so I had to trash them asap. I have a deep passion for growing the herb I found out. I have given myself a time frame of 5 months after this month to acquire everything for the grow. Right now I am still studying and choosing the equipment during the time of this thread. The only changes will be a 5x9, maybe a 10" hyper fan, and a 1200CFM filter.


so what do you have right now to start?


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## ProAmateur (Mar 12, 2017)

All I have is 5 seeds, and a $1000. My motivation.

I was undecided and jumped on here to get feedback on the size of tent I needed in regards to a 4x8 or a 5x9.


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## Lightgreen2k (Mar 12, 2017)

ProAmateur said:


> All I have is 5 seeds, and a $1000. My motivation.
> 
> I was undecided and jumped on here to get feedback on the size of tent I needed in regards to a 4x8 or a 5x9.


Amazon prime has a 4x4 gorilla grow tent for about $325 and vortex 6 inch fan for about $150. You have to start somewhere. get another 5x9 tent later.


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## ProAmateur (Mar 12, 2017)

I know, but the bigger space means I could crawl in there when it comes time to cut them down without risking the smell in the house. What would be the average yield for a 5x5 tent using scrog?


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## Lightgreen2k (Mar 12, 2017)

ProAmateur said:


> I know, but the bigger space means I could crawl in there when it comes time to cut them down without risking the smell in the house. What would be the average yield for a 5x5 tent using scrog?


all depends. seach 5x5 tent grows in the search bar.


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## ProAmateur (Mar 12, 2017)

Thanks for the input, I'll take the 5x5 into consideration, and still debate on the 5x9 for shits and giggles. I'll journal whatever build I decide to go with. It'll take a minute, but I'll get there.


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## chemphlegm (Mar 13, 2017)

ProAmateur said:


> Proper feeding of the plants has been a strong consideration, from what I understand Sativas have an extremely sensitive root system with nutes, ph changes, and too much nitrogen. I understand that I will have mishaps and will need to fine tune things, but I have set a goal, and will reach that goal...eventually. I plan on setting everything up and running the tent for a few days to try and balance temperature, and humidity prior to starting plants. Figured I would throw a humidifier in there and use the inline fan to equal it out for example(although it prolly won't be too healthy on the carbon filter) Thanks for the input on calculating the light with plants, that puts my mind at ease with these LEC's, I chose them for efficiency and heat(roughly 2200 BTU's per 630 watts).


I grow indica's and sativas side by side with the same nutrient and soil and temps and rh and nitrogen too. I dont fuss with the ph in my soil, no need. sativas take longer, veg less here, and typically yield less too. In MI I havent found one patient who actually enjoyed a real sativa since 2008, except myself. led's may leave you wanting, they did me. I'd plant them and let them grow my first time, but thats me. 
when I had a grand and five seeds I planted them without fuss after following the guidelines in the jorge cervantes grow bible. I carried those same instructions to a full size outdoor dedicated grow building and have never had a garden issue since. I set it and forget it according to the grow bible, once, no fuss. 
I've never employed a humidifier in my mj gardens. I hope you enjoy your sativas.


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## ProAmateur (Mar 13, 2017)

The only reason I mentioned adding a humidifier to the room was to see if I could regulate humidity getting an idea for fan speed setting. This would be done prior to adding plants to the room, If anything it would be a dehumidifier during the grow if one was needed. I am a fan of the Sativa doms, but have gathered that the Gorilla Glue is mostly sativa in genetics. I have read the grow bible as well, the black&white version, and the version in color(been a while, couldn't reference the exact title/authors). Thanks for the input on Sativas, I have noticed not many individuals prefer Sativa as well. Only the old school bunch that have far more years than I do in terms of age. I have an interest in LED's but they are too expensive for what I can afford to put into it right now.


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## prostheticninja (Mar 13, 2017)

Skip the Amazon tent, if you are going to be ordering one. I picked up an El cheapo 4x2 off eBay a couple months back. I want to say it was like $60 some bucks shipped to my door. Took five minutes to assemble and it seems built to last; metal corners, multiple support brackets. It might be worth a look on eBay to find your tent. I ordered my reflector off of there too, the cheapest cool tube available, and I was not impressed. Ended up breaking the cool tube and ripped the reflective aluminum out to make my own wing.

If you do end up going through Amazon, watch out for this scum fucker named "Low_Baller". That hack job couldn't pack a bowl, let alone a package for shipment. He packed my last ballast and reflector combo with the cord for the lamp right over a the top bracket of the reflector, so when whatever it was that landed on top of my box landed on it, it sliced my cord nearly in half. Luckily, I had another one I could replace it with. Also, that hairy turd will package up used lights, and send them to you instead of new ones when it says "new bulbs" in the listing.

Guy is probably the feds, hoping to disrupt growers

Edit: just noticed that the thread it titled "Gorilla Tent". If you have your heart set on the name brand, go for it, but I think one of these cheaper ones can still get the job done. The only "qualm" I have with my tent is that it is not 100% light tight, but since it's a veg tent it doesnt matter. It could be made light tight in a matter of minutes though. Up to you, man, but I'm always looking to save some money.


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## WeedFreak78 (Mar 13, 2017)

Unrealistic goals for a, self proclaimed, inexperienced grower. Start with a 5x5, get your shit down, then get another 5x5 and duplicate the first one. It's WAYYYYYY easier to get consistent 1.5-2# per tent, than try to max out yield every time. As you get more experience, your yields will go up. 

Plus, running 2 tents on overlapping cycles, say 4 wks apart, makes harvesting a little less intensive. Trim 1-2lbs every 4 weeks, or 3-4lbs every 8 wks?


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## ProAmateur (Mar 13, 2017)

prostheticninja said:


> Skip the Amazon tent, if you are going to be ordering one. I picked up an El cheapo 4x2 off eBay a couple months back. I want to say it was like $60 some bucks shipped to my door. Took five minutes to assemble and it seems built to last; metal corners, multiple support brackets. It might be worth a look on eBay to find your tent. I ordered my reflector off of there too, the cheapest cool tube available, and I was not impressed. Ended up breaking the cool tube and ripped the reflective aluminum out to make my own wing.
> 
> If you do end up going through Amazon, watch out for this scum fucker named "Low_Baller". That hack job couldn't pack a bowl, let alone a package for shipment. He packed my last ballast and reflector combo with the cord for the lamp right over a the top bracket of the reflector, so when whatever it was that landed on top of my box landed on it, it sliced my cord nearly in half. Luckily, I had another one I could replace it with. Also, that hairy turd will package up used lights, and send them to you instead of new ones when it says "new bulbs" in the listing.
> 
> ...


My mind is set on a Gorilla, I have annual inspections from landlord and need something that will be durable enough to be torn down and put back together from time to time. I found a Gorilla 5x5 tent on hydro builder/free shipping and a free 12" extension kit with IR Block roof upgrade for 437.39. They are a Google trusted store as well with good reviews; cheapest I could find for what I was looking for. Thanks for the heads up on amazon I've been comparing prices there quite a bit.


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## ProAmateur (Mar 13, 2017)

WeedFreak78 said:


> Unrealistic goals for a, self proclaimed, inexperienced grower. Start with a 5x5, get your shit down, then get another 5x5 and duplicate the first one. It's WAYYYYYY easier to get consistent 1.5-2# per tent, than try to max out yield every time. As you get more experience, your yields will go up.
> 
> Plus, running 2 tents on overlapping cycles, say 4 wks apart, makes harvesting a little less intensive. Trim 1-2lbs every 4 weeks, or 3-4lbs every 8 wks?


In regards to your 5x5 tent recommendation(which I am considering), what would be the total number of plants recommended for the setup you are referring to?


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## WeedFreak78 (Mar 13, 2017)

ProAmateur said:


> In regards to your 5x5 tent recommendation(which I am considering), what would be the total number of plants recommended for the setup you are referring to?


Tough to say. 1 big one in a screen to 50 clones thrown right into flower. Idk what the lights your looking at are capable of. Either way, it's not so much how many plants, but how much canopy do you have. I'd look into vertical to increase your sq footage of you want the numbers you're taking about.


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## ProAmateur (Mar 13, 2017)

WeedFreak78 said:


> Tough to say. 1 big one in a screen to 50 clones thrown right into flower. Idk what the lights your looking at are capable of. Either way, it's not so much how many plants, but how much canopy do you have. I'd look into vertical to increase your sq footage of you want the numbers you're taking about.


I watched a video in a controlled environment with a 1K-hps on a light rail, vs a couple stationary 315w LEC's and the yields were close to 1 gram or so more per plant, THC was little over 1% higher over the HPS fixture for almost half the power draw. I've read on these lights enough to go cross-eyed in terms of performance, efficiency, heat, and cost. From everything I have gathered, The sun system 630W LEC fixture wins hands down compared to 600/1000W HPS setups. With using the LEC, I would be able to regulate my temperatures better being I am a newbie; concentrating more on leveling humidity rather than battling both heat/humidity. The 8" vented hood is my choice, based on operating temperature of the bulbs(2200BTU/630W) I could get away with a 6" fan cooling the hood, and using an 8" Hyper fan for air exchange....and, IF I go with the 5x9, still use the 8" Hyper fan and link together the hoods using the 6" without any hassles(in theory).

Here is the video:





To each their own though...


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## ProAmateur (Mar 13, 2017)

I am limited to 6-8 plants unfortunately, which is the reason I still contemplate a 5x9 in the back of my mind. The plan was to start small, 3-5 plants, and create a large canopy, with plenty of room for the light to reflect off the walls and hit the lower branches. Temperatures are easier to control in a 5x9 from what I have heard, and there is plenty enough room to crawl in and get things done if I have to. The cost and time increase is the only problem I am facing with 5x9 vs 5x5. The 4x8 has been completely ruled out thanks to feedback from the peeps on this thread.


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## cookie master (Mar 15, 2017)

I saw a video of a guy winning the ufc, its easier said than done. I am being pessimistic but you are confused.
People always lie about yields, its like asking a fisherman how big his biggest catch is. And then you decide to be a pro fisherman, you buy the same rods, line, lures and boat as the pro uses. But you arent a pro, and you dont catch any 10 lbers even though you follow all the advice.
That lec light wont make you a better grower than someone with an hps. Hps is plenty strong already. Heat is less of an issue than humidity because with 5 lbs in a tent you are gonna just mold away without more than enough exhaust to get the heat out. You arent walking or crawling into a 5x9 tent, because it will be overflowingly stuffed with buds at 2 lbs unless you get the right structure and techniques down. Have you thought about odor? Thats your number one concern unless you have a few plants in a legal state.


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## ProAmateur (Mar 15, 2017)

It is not easy, but it is not as difficult as you make it sound; it's a weed. As long as required conditions are met, it will grow just fine. I am not getting the LEC because I think it will make me a better grower, I am getting it because of its heat signature and efficiency. I am above average in skill and intelligence; not the average idiot when it comes to jumping into something. I merely showed an example video of the results experienced growers are getting out of the LEC's, because so many people that have never used them, like to put their 2 cents in. I have thought of every aspect of the setup for this grow, including humidity, ambient temperature, canopy temperature, nutrients, ph levels, soil ph fluctuations, light distance, lumens, wattage, air exchange, veg times, flower times, pests, strains, legalities, photo period, cropping/fimming/pruning, growing techniques(light overview-undecided), odor control/harvest odor, and other shit I am forgetting to mention because I am bored with this response already.
The inline fan for the 5x5 holds a 710CFM rating, more than enough power to control humidity since recommended air flow is around 440CFM, and no I don't plan on plugging it in and letting it run full power. The 5x9 would be fitted with a 10" fan that is rated 1065CFM, again more power than needed; with a carbon filter holding a rating close to 50% more CFM than what the fan is rated at since it would be a large tent. I have decided to go with the 5x5 for my own reasons, only because my budget will not allow me to get a 5x9 setup build in the time frame I've got. The 5x5 setup listed above is focused mainly on efficiency, the Hyper fan only draws 74watts(roughly), and dialed in, will draw less than that. The video was a statement to how well an LEC performs compared to an HPS light. Showing that they are within comparison of the 1K HPS. Which is an obvious statement if you watched the video, which you probably didn't. You call me confused, but don't know what you are talking about in reference to who I am and what I have grown prior to deciding to grow "monkey shit". I'll dial the tent in(as mentioned more than once previously) before adding plants to gain a better understanding of how to react when the tent humidity changes or temperatures fluctuate. Crawling into a 5x9 tent isn't possible with full growth either, it is a figure of speech, that obviously I only understood. People these days are so stuck in their own world with their own knowledge and experience, that if somebody was to try something that they haven't, they get all "pessimistic", or judge without asking first. Sounds like you skim through these posts rather than reading through the whole thing before commenting.
"Better Grower", lol.....that's funny shit. So far I have learned nothing from you, in terms of "advice".


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## WeedFreak78 (Mar 16, 2017)

cookie master said:


> You arent walking or crawling into a 5x9 tent, because it will be overflowingly stuffed with buds at 2 lbs unless you get the right structure and techniques down. Have you thought about odor? Thats your number one concern unless you have a few plants in a legal state.


IMO, 2lbs, in even a moderately well setup 5x9 would be kinda pathetic. Especially packed the way you're talking. 3 times now, I've done 2 plants each in a 27 gal tote, scrogged in about a 36"x20" screen, in a 4x4 area and got between 1.5-2#'s every time. I'm working on 2-2.5# per tent... because I like more work...


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## WeedFreak78 (Mar 16, 2017)

ProAmateur said:


> It is not easy, but it is not as difficult as you make it sound; it's a weed. As long as required conditions are met, it will grow just fine. I am not getting the LEC because I think it will make me a better grower, I am getting it because of its heat signature and efficiency. I am above average in skill and intelligence; not the average idiot when it comes to jumping into something. I merely showed an example video of the results experienced growers are getting out of the LEC's, because so many people that have never used them, like to put their 2 cents in. I have thought of every aspect of the setup for this grow, including humidity, ambient temperature, canopy temperature, nutrients, ph levels, soil ph fluctuations, light distance, lumens, wattage, air exchange, veg times, flower times, pests, strains, legalities, photo period, cropping/fimming/pruning, growing techniques(light overview-undecided), odor control/harvest odor, and other shit I am forgetting to mention because I am bored with this response already.
> The inline fan for the 5x5 holds a 710CFM rating, more than enough power to control humidity since recommended air flow is around 440CFM, and no I don't plan on plugging it in and letting it run full power. The 5x9 would be fitted with a 10" fan that is rated 1065CFM, again more power than needed; with a carbon filter holding a rating close to 50% more CFM than what the fan is rated at since it would be a large tent. I have decided to go with the 5x5 for my own reasons, only because my budget will not allow me to get a 5x9 setup build in the time frame I've got. The 5x5 setup listed above is focused mainly on efficiency, the Hyper fan only draws 74watts(roughly), and dialed in, will draw less than that. The video was a statement to how well an LEC performs compared to an HPS light. Showing that they are within comparison of the 1K HPS. Which is an obvious statement if you watched the video, which you probably didn't. You call me confused, but don't know what you are talking about in reference to who I am and what I have grown prior to deciding to grow "monkey shit". I'll dial the tent in(as mentioned more than once previously) before adding plants to gain a better understanding of how to react when the tent humidity changes or temperatures fluctuate. Crawling into a 5x9 tent isn't possible with full growth either, it is a figure of speech, that obviously I only understood. People these days are so stuck in their own world with their own knowledge and experience, that if somebody was to try something that they haven't, they get all "pessimistic", or judge without asking first. Sounds like you skim through these posts rather than reading through the whole thing before commenting.
> "Better Grower", lol.....that's funny shit. So far I have learned nothing from you, in terms of "advice".


I did all the research you did too. Once you populate your area with plants, it won't matter that you did dry runs to get it dialed in. Trust me on that. And as they grow the environment will change dramatically, especially with larger plants. It's good to try and get an idea of what's going to happen, but expect to make running changes for the first 6 months to a year. 

Is the LEC similar to a CMH? I know nothing about them.


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## ProAmateur (Mar 16, 2017)

Yes they are the same. LEC is used more often than CMH(terminology) but they are the same technology of lighting.
LEC = Light Emitting Ceramic
CMH = Ceramic Metal Halide
CDM = Ceramic Discharge Metal Halide

The ceramic tube allows the bulb("Plasma") to burn at a higher temperature than standard HPS/MH bulbs. This allows the light produced to better mimic the sun in spectrum, CRI, and are more efficient than their current counterparts. LEC's run at cooler temperatures as well. They also have a slower startup than the HPS/MH which trickles electricity to the bulb rather than a burst of energy to get the plasma going. Which in turn extends the overall life expectancy of the bulb in the long run(2yrs operation). IDK if the lumens and spectrum stay consistent for that long, but I did hear mention of not having to replace the bulb for 18months or so.
*
Explanation:*
Most people/growers, measure the output of a bulb in light intensity, or lumens. Although these bulbs are not in comparison to the lumens produced by HPS/MH bulbs, there are other advantages to the technology.
LEC 315W bulb-------------------------33,000 initial lumens
1K HPS ----------------------------------110,000 - 140,000 lumens
750 HPS ---------------------------------110,000 lumens
600 HPS----------------------------------90,000 - 96,000 lumens
Bare in mind these are approximate numbers, every manufacturer is different, and not all bulbs are made the same.

Rather than light intensity or light output, these bulbs excel in "Color Rendering Index" or CRI.
The sun emits a CRI of 100.
LEC----------------------------------------- 80-96 CRI
HPS-----------------------------------------22 CRI (Avg)
MH-------------------------------------------65-70 CRI

The light spectrum produced by LEC's surpasses that of both Metal Halide and High Pressure Sodium bulbs. The spectrum range is so good, that a 3100K bulb can be used from seed to flower finish. The heat generated by two 315W bulbs(630W) is roughly 2,200 BTU's compared to 1K HPS bulb, which generates up to 3,500 BTU's of heat.
They also produce a higher level of UV(maybe UVB) rays as well, and require skin/eye protection while working in the tent or around the footprint of the light.

They are comparing one 315W LEC bulb to the power of a 1000W HPS bulb, and 2 315W bulbs to 1200W+ of the HPS or MH setups. I have watched many videos on LEC's vs HPS and the results are there. The video above is a prime example of many.

So the reasons I have chosen to go with this light is because I wanted efficiency and performance all in one package. The cons would be the startup price, and the bulbs(made by Phillips) run close to $100/ea.

My initial grow was focused on efficiency, operating cost, and heat......and that, is some enlightenment of the LEC/CMH Technology.


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## ProAmateur (Mar 16, 2017)

WeedFreak78 said:


> I did all the research you did too. Once you populate your area with plants, it won't matter that you did dry runs to get it dialed in. Trust me on that. And as they grow the environment will change dramatically, especially with larger plants. It's good to try and get an idea of what's going to happen, but expect to make running changes for the first 6 months to a year.
> 
> Is the LEC similar to a CMH? I know nothing about them.


Well, shit.... So would it be best to have an environmental control unit for the tent? Or would it be better to save $$$ and closely monitor the tent adding changes as needed?


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## ProAmateur (Mar 16, 2017)

WeedFreak78 said:


> IMO, 2lbs, in even a moderately well setup 5x9 would be kinda pathetic. Especially packed the way you're talking. 3 times now, I've done 2 plants each in a 27 gal tote, scrogged in about a 36"x20" screen, in a 4x4 area and got between 1.5-2#'s every time. I'm working on 2-2.5# per tent... because I like more work...


For the record; my statements to Cookie Master still stand. I only apologized to prove that I am the better man, and better looking too. In a short time of starting the grow, I will eventually become a better grower than him. I know an idiot when I deal with one. I am not here to pick a fight, I am here to learn from more humble growers who are willing to give knowledge and wisdom; those who do not contradict my ideas so quickly. Growers who understand the passion of growing, and those who are not foolishly consumed by their own mind to the point of being more dumb than smart.

ProAmateur Out..........


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## Rider509 (Mar 22, 2017)

Sensitive much?


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## ProAmateur (Mar 22, 2017)

Believe what you want to


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## ProAmateur (Mar 22, 2017)




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## Rider509 (Mar 22, 2017)

Hahaha, I thought you'd tucked tail and left. No? Well then, allow me to offer some sage advice.
"Don't get your panties in a wad when you encounter someone who doesn't heap accolades on your goals."
Seriously. It's counterproductive to achieving your goals and just alienates others who might be inclined to comment but don't because they don't want to risk being on the receiving end of one of your tirades. So what if someone thinks your goals are unrealistic? Just do your thing. And if you want to flaunt your intellectual prowess head over to PhysicsForum and try to keep up. LMAO.
Best of luck with your grow plans.


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## ProAmateur (Mar 22, 2017)

Sage advice taken. Thanks.


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## Rider509 (Mar 22, 2017)

Cool. I think your decision to go with the 5x9 is right. You'll never regret having the extra space to work with. Some thoughts considering your declared budget. Since tents don't grow plants my suggestion is that rather than drop a ton of money on an expensive Gorilla tent you might consider something inexpensive and instead drop the bulk of your budget on lights. Two Gavita Pro 1000e DE lights would kill in that space. So would three 630W LECs like you're already considering. 
Personally, the Gavitas would be my choice due to cost. Besides, the Gavitas are the defacto standard by which other grow lights are compared.
http://www.gavita-holland.com/index.php/products/proline/item/gavita-pro-1000e-de-us.html


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## ProAmateur (Mar 23, 2017)

Gavita light look nice, thanks for the info. I have already prepped for a 5x5 and I'll see where it goes from there. If the turnout is better than expected then I'll grab a 5x9 and turn it into a perpetual grow. 

Definitely checking into the Gavita fixtures, the 6x6 footprint will be a nice setup for the price.


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## Jon E. Doe (Mar 25, 2017)

OP, Please do a grow journal.

I too am a rookie. My bushes will be flipped to flower soon, but I am always down to see how others do on their initial grows (so much real world experience to be learned from, opposed to reading threads). You have obviously done alot of research. I am always comparing my version of "how it can be done" to other folks who are just starting out. I look forward to following along with you as you embark on this endeavor. You've obviously spent much more time researching than I did. Perhaps it will pay big dividends for you!

Looking forward to watching you grow some beasts and learning!


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## 714steadyeddie (Mar 25, 2017)

ProAmateur said:


> For the record; my statements to Cookie Master still stand. I only apologized to prove that I am the better man, and better looking too. In a short time of starting the grow, I will eventually become a better grower than him. I know an idiot when I deal with one. I am not here to pick a fight, I am here to learn from more humble growers who are willing to give knowledge and wisdom; those who do not contradict my ideas so quickly. Growers who understand the passion of growing, and those who are not foolishly consumed by their own mind to the point of being more dumb than smart.
> 
> ProAmateur Out..........


Hopefully you don't over think your grow. 
Keep it simple stoner. 

Which medium are you growing in? Have you decided on which nutrients to go with ?

Scrog would be your best bet and very user friendly. You wouldn't need to worry too much about canopy management once they start budding. 

Don't be the type to hover around your plants everyday worrying about every little thing. 

Good luck


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## ProAmateur (Mar 25, 2017)

Hopefully all the research I have done will fall in place as I attempt my first grow. Now its down to the slow process of gathering equipment and deciding on the fixture. Gavita fixtures are decently priced, but I am worried about the heat in a 5x5 setup. 

I have been considering doing a grow journal.

Thanks.


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## ProAmateur (Mar 25, 2017)

714steadyeddie said:


> Hopefully you don't over think your grow.
> Keep it simple stoner.
> 
> Which medium are you growing in? Have you decided on which nutrients to go with ?
> ...


Medium: Roots Organic soil(formula 707) - 70RO/20fiber/10perlite
Technique: LST and SCROG
Nutes: Advanced Nutrients
In the beginning I prolly will, unfortunately.

For the record, I don't smoke very often due to job


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## WeedFreak78 (Mar 26, 2017)

ProAmateur said:


> Hopefully all the research I have done will fall in place as I attempt my first grow. Now its down to the slow process of gathering equipment and deciding on the fixture. Gavita fixtures are decently priced, but I am worried about the heat in a 5x5 setup.
> 
> I have been considering doing a grow journal.
> 
> Thanks.


The gavita DE needs something like 9-10ft of head room. I don't think it will work well in a tent.


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## Rider509 (Mar 26, 2017)

WeedFreak78 said:


> The gavita DE needs something like 9-10ft of head room. I don't think it will work well in a tent.


Step away from the bong, WeedFreak. LOL.
The Gavita is widely used in grow tents. Here's a complete 5x9 kit with TWO Gavita 1000W DE fixtures.
http://growershouse.com/gavita-double-ended-1000w-grow-room-package-5x9


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## WeedFreak78 (Mar 26, 2017)

Rider509 said:


> Step away from the bong, WeedFreak. LOL.
> The Gavita is widely used in grow tents. Here's a complete 5x9 kit with TWO Gavita 1000W DE fixtures.
> http://growershouse.com/gavita-double-ended-1000w-grow-room-package-5x9


So someone sells a kit so that makes it right? Did you read how they include a tent extension to get to a 7'11" height, and offer others to get up to 9'11" height. 

I looked into gavitas when I was buying lights, they say a 9'+ head height for optimal use. Should be around 36" away from the canopy. Is not a typical 1000 hid. They were designed for commercial operations, not home grows. 

Put down your bong, I can handle my shit.


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## Rider509 (Mar 26, 2017)

How about we share a bong instead? 
The OP said he was planning on a 5x9 Gorilla so he should have the height. And he also said he was going to scrog so he should have the distance from the canopy. And with the Gavita small room reflectors that would be a killer combo, especially since it can be dimmed to 600, 750, or 825 watts, or boosted to 1150. If he decides to grow sativas all bets are off! LOL
That being said, I hate HPS lights. Even with Method7 Zeiss glasses they give me an eye ache. 
I'm running 3590s in both tents.


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## Dreameaterxo (Mar 27, 2017)

How worried are you about heat? 

If you get decent dividends from your initial grow in the small tent, I'd say invest them into the larger tent with LEDs for lighting. Keep your smaller tent for your clones and early vegging. Don't wrinkle your nose yet--they have a bad rap because too many people fall for the cheap blurple (blue-purple) diodes in fixtures offered by companies like MARS. 

You seem like you'd enjoy Growmau5's vids on YouTube. He's incredibly bright, and committed to reviewing and educating about LEDs with no bias. Purely quantitative. His numbers are fascinating and he proves over and over that a decent COB LED can be twice as efficient as conventional lighting.


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## ProAmateur (Apr 2, 2017)

Restricted by my budget; I am looking into the 5x5 tent setup. After a couple runs I am planning on getting a 5x9 setup, and turning the 5x5 into a veg/clone room for perpetual growing. 

The tent measures 5' X 5' X 7.9167' Tall. LED's are too expensive for my budget right now. 

Would I be able to get away with using a Gavita 1000E DE fixture in that volume of space? Concerning the 4500 BTU's of heat and no flow hood.
----OR----
Should I continue with purchasing the LEC 630W Fixture?
It will pull less power, run cooler, and create a smaller imprint on the electric bill. 

Interested in the Gavita but, I personally think it would produce too much heat in the 5x5 and would cause me more headache than what it is worth. Good reviews and everybody I talk to swear by them, "nothing better than a double ended bulb" they say. - words from experienced growers.

Any thoughts gentlemen?


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Apr 2, 2017)

unless you have a source i am unaware of, Gavits start off at about 450 bucks...you could get a pretty decent d.i.y. led set up going for 450 bucks........


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## ProAmateur (Apr 2, 2017)

I am more asking towards what type of heat I will be dealing with by placing a Gavita 1000e in a 5x5 tent. But, if my budget allows, I will be using the LEC 630 in favor of the electric bill.


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## Rider509 (Apr 5, 2017)

Where are you planning on venting the tent? Outside or inside the grow room?


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## Budget Buds (Apr 5, 2017)

ProAmateur said:


> So here is my question, would I be able to pull close to 4-5 pounds with a decent veg time, in a 5x9 or 4x8 tent utilizing 2-630w fixture-LEC growing 6-8 plants(gorilla glue, Jock Horror, Headband) Sativa dominant strains, in 7-10 gallon pots in 1 grow?


Yeah you could , If plant count was not an issue you could SOG it and pull maybe double the weight every cycle with less time between cycles (veg) EX: I have a 40x40inch tent with a 1 k hps in it and I can pull 2-2.5 lbs every 55ish days running 32 plants sog style (critical+2.0 70% sativa) . It's more work cloning and stuff but i get an extra harvest every year cause of a short veg time


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## GangusKush (Apr 5, 2017)

Budget Buds said:


> Yeah you could , If plant count was not an issue you could SOG it and pull maybe double the weight every cycle with less time between cycles (veg) EX: I have a 40x40inch tent with a 1 k hps in it and I can pull 2-2.5 lbs every 55ish days running 32 plants sog style (critical+2.0 70% sativa) . It's more work cloning and stuff but i get an extra harvest every year cause of a short veg time


2.5lbs total including trim? Or just bud, cause I can get 12ozs tops out of a 36x36 SCROG using C02, carbo loading great white and silicon in hydro, 1000w hps easily covers a 5x5 and I've done 2+ pounds in a 5x5 but 2.5 in a 40x40??? Really what crack are you giving your plants?


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## Budget Buds (Apr 5, 2017)

GangusKush said:


> 2.5lbs total including trim? Or just bud, cause I can get 12ozs tops out of a 36x36 SCROG using C02, carbo loading great white and silicon in hydro, 1000w hps easily covers a 5x5 and I've done 2+ pounds in a 5x5 but 2.5 in a 40x40??? Really what crack are you giving your plants?


Just buds mate, there is very little trim because they are single cola plants that devote all energy into one bud between 12 and 18 inches long  I have them in aeroponics and the room is dialed in tight , 2.5 lbs is the most I pulled using the critical + 2.0 , the norm is about 2lbs with my regular strain, gumboldt . that 2,5 run was impressive , but I'm getting less then 1 gpw with the others using the hps, which is about normal, I just found a way to think outside the box


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## GangusKush (Apr 5, 2017)

Budget Buds said:


> Just buds mate, there is very little trim because they are single cola plants that devote all energy into one bud between 12 and 18 inches long  I have them in aeroponics and the room is dialed in tight , 2.5 lbs is the most I pulled using the critical + 2.0 , the norm is about 2lbs with my regular strain, gumboldt . that 2,5 run was impressive , but I'm getting less then 1 gpw with the others using the hps, which is about normal, I just found a way to think outside the box


Gotta try that 32 plant small plant run, I'm use to either 1 or 3 plants in a 36x36in box if it's gonna bump my yeild that much, any reduction I quality having so many in a small space?


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## Budget Buds (Apr 5, 2017)

GangusKush said:


> Gotta try that 32 plant small plant run, I'm use to either 1 or 3 plants in a 36x36in box if it's gonna bump my yeild that much, any reduction I quality having so many in a small space?


Once you get it dialed in , you can double that easily. I have to run a 5k btu ac in addition to the hps cause of heat but it's worth it , Might take ya a run or two to get it dialed in though. sog is the way to go if you want quick cycles, lots of product . There is no loss of quality , it's all top shelf one nug plants, since the whole plant is a top bud .


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Apr 5, 2017)

sog kicks ass, just be aware if you aren't in a legal state, usually the penalties are tied to the number of plants you have, i'd love to run a sog, but the penalties here go up after ten plants, and the ten plant penalty is more than enough for me


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## Jon E. Doe (Apr 5, 2017)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> i'd love to run a sog, but the penalties here go up after ten plants, and the ten plant penalty is more than enough for me


Right!


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## GangusKush (Apr 6, 2017)

Jon E. Doe said:


> Right!


As a medical patient in California, you can grow as much as you medically need in 100 sq ft that's a 10x10 room, if you go over that 10x10 you need permits or a count and space bump from a doctor, if medical laws are similar in other states to California you shouldn't have a problem at all, not to mention it very hard to process a warrant for cannabis related busts these day, can search due to smell, power, gardening trash in Cali, just watch that traffic if you selling!!


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## ProAmateur (Apr 6, 2017)

Rider509 said:


> Where are you planning on venting the tent? Outside or inside the grow room?


I plan on venting the tent into the grow room and circulating the air out of the room with a fan. I've got an idea in the works for modifying the ceiling vent to accept an 8" hose and blow the exhaust into the attic. As much as I would like a Gavita mainly because of the footprint, I am favoring the LEC 630W for wattage draw and heat.

Unfortunately, being that the LEC 630W will have a 4x4 footprint.......Would that cause me problems with lighting in a 5x5 tent setup???


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## 462Juvat (Apr 7, 2017)

Venting into the attic is a bad idea. Attics are a cold space buffer for your home in the winter and warm space buffer for hotter climates. In colder climates it will cause snow to melt then freeze again under the shingles ruining a roof. 

Police also stumble upon growers through the use of FLIR. Say they have a helo out looking for a bad guy as we have all seen on TV. A grow house without proper heat management lights up like it's a neon beacon. Grows vented to the attic makes it stand out even more.


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## GangusKush (Apr 8, 2017)

GangusKush said:


> laws





GangusKush said:


> As a medical patient in California, you can grow as much as you medically need in 100 sq ft that's a 10x10 room, if you go over that 10x10 you need permits or a count and space bump from a doctor, if medical laws are similar in other states to California you shouldn't have a problem at all, not to mention it very hard to process a warrant for cannabis related busts these day, can't search due to smell, power,and gardening trash in Cali, just watch that traffic if you selling!!And compost your left overs


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## Slimmy jim big (Apr 8, 2017)

600 hps .... that's where it's at


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## ProAmateur (Apr 8, 2017)

462Juvat said:


> Venting into the attic is a bad idea. Attics are a cold space buffer for your home in the winter and warm space buffer for hotter climates. In colder climates it will cause snow to melt then freeze again under the shingles ruining a roof.
> 
> Police also stumble upon growers through the use of FLIR. Say they have a helo out looking for a bad guy as we have all seen on TV. A grow house without proper heat management lights up like it's a neon beacon. Grows vented to the attic makes it stand out even more.


Thanks for the heads up. So it would be better to vent the exhaust into the attic and directly out of an attic vent?


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## Slimmy jim big (Apr 8, 2017)

Have you cracked your baby's yet?


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## Slimmy jim big (Apr 8, 2017)

I'd like to give you my input and personal findings considering I was much like yourself when starting out... hoping for pounds out of my first go around lol


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## ProAmateur (Apr 8, 2017)

I've got some good name beans but still gathering equipment and supplies right now. I will be getting a 5x5 tent within the next couple of weeks, and should have all I need by July.

I work a lot and will not be around to monitor temperatures religiously, which is why I have decided on the LEC 630W. Rather have cooler temps than 90+ temps if anything happens while I am away

Hell yeah, Give me your thoughts...


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## ProAmateur (Apr 9, 2017)

I am looking into getting the Hurricane 16" wall mount fan for the 5x5 tent. Would that type of fan be sufficient for the area it will be pushing air in???

Also, I am having trouble finding a good timer for the LEC 630w fixture. I prefer digital, but am interested in any feedback. What timers are good for fixtures? 

I am thinking I need a timer for the inline fan, lights, and the circulation fan in the tent. What timers do you recommend or use?????


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## Slimmy jim big (Apr 9, 2017)

You really don't need all this equipment right off ... just good genetics some cfls a couple little fans .... and your gonna have a couple months to start acquiring other things but honestly all your gonna need is a good light to flower with and I would go for a 600hps ... I paid like 200 for my first set and it worked awesome..... all I had for cooling was a couple house fans one for canopy and one for light heat... I also had just a dryer vent duct from the window with a little computer fan blowing cool fresh air inside my diy cab which was the size of a 3x4x6 rent.. get your first couple runs down before you go buy all kinds of fancy grow stuff lol ... just my input man ... and yes research is great but it's nothing until you do it and see for yourself... good luck bro and have fun but be careful cause it will consume your life lol which isn't a bad thing


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## Yodaweed (Apr 9, 2017)

Get 2x 1000w hps with large reflectors and it should yield 2-4 pounds per run. Good luck and happy growing.


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## ProAmateur (Apr 9, 2017)

Slimmy jim big said:


> You really don't need all this equipment right off ... just good genetics some cfls a couple little fans .... and your gonna have a couple months to start acquiring other things but honestly all your gonna need is a good light to flower with and I would go for a 600hps ... I paid like 200 for my first set and it worked awesome..... all I had for cooling was a couple house fans one for canopy and one for light heat... I also had just a dryer vent duct from the window with a little computer fan blowing cool fresh air inside my diy cab which was the size of a 3x4x6 rent.. get your first couple runs down before you go buy all kinds of fancy grow stuff lol ... just my input man ... and yes research is great but it's nothing until you do it and see for yourself... good luck bro and have fun but be careful cause it will consume your life lol which isn't a bad thing


OK. Yeah, the textbook(theory) is completely different from the real world of things. All I am trying to gather for the initial startup is the tent, inline fan, filter, and bare essentials. I have a T5 to start the veg with, but want to use it as little as possible; read that T5's lack intensity and prevents root system from developing as it should during veg. Which reduces flower size upon final harvest. Thanks for the input, I know I'll be growing more than once, so I am trying to accomplish one investment rather than having to upgrade later. Not trying to be hard headed, but I am stuck on LEC's.


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## Slimmy jim big (Apr 10, 2017)

Have you started your seeds yet?


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## Rider509 (Apr 10, 2017)

ProAmateur, to answer your question about timers: it has been noted many times that for light control the mechanical make/break timers are preferable to digital timers due to the later's tendency to allow a very small current to pass when "off". Some dimmers behave badly under those conditions. I have no personal experience but recall reading about problems with digital on/off timers and lighting drivers. Just something more for you to research!

And for what it's worth, I think you're doing it right. Sooo many people will pop a few seeds and then they're here asking for help and needing to be spoon fed.


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## ProAmateur (Apr 11, 2017)

Thanks for the info. I have came across the Titan Controls Apollo 4 Inline Timer for the fixture since my question regarding timers. What you stated earlier; based on your knowledge, you wouldn't recommend a digital timer for inline/circulation fans correct? A question I felt needed to be asked since I have been looking at digi's for that type of equipment. I'll definitely read into it when I get the chance. 

Thanks again, I don't plan on popping beans until I have everything in place. Premature bean poppin' is just asking for trouble.


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## ProAmateur (Apr 15, 2017)

Would there be a difference if I have a 4x4 footprint fixture in a 5x5 tent compared to a 5x5+ footprint light fixture?
A question I keep pondering on with the LEC fixture.


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## Captain Keg (Apr 16, 2017)

@ProAmateur , you seem to be trying to run, before you can walk Imo. 

Why don't you try a smaller grow first? Rather than investing a considerable amount of your time & money into this project before your sure you can commit yourself to this. 

I'd like to point out, digit timers would be a brilliant solution for your fans & exhausts. 
A contractor would be better for running lights. 
Many lights just as HID's will basically suck up a larger amount of power than required when first starting, this tends to burn out timers. (I learnt this from experience) 

How do you plan on dispersing the heat from the exhaust? Keeping in mind, this is what FLIR cameras look for. 
I personally use insulated ducts, I find them much better than regular cheap ones. 

You've mentioned your landlord doing inspections. How often do they inspect? 
Because this isn't something you want to be building & taking apart every so often, as there will undoubtedly be a smell & moving & hidding plants will become a pain in the ass. 
A strain like northern lights or hybrid X may be a better solution to this. (All cannabis plants will smell, those I've mentioned have much milder than GG as you've mentioned) 
Is it the clone only GG#4 you intend to grow or a seer version of Gorilla Glue? 

There's two things I'd like to ask: are you doing this grow legally? (Assuming in a legal state in the US) 
& is this grow, for personally supply, or a cash crop? 

I'd like to point out, I'm in no way attempting to put you off. If anything I'd like to see you growing, I'd just rather you've fully thought this all out; rather than struggling or regretting it half way through. 
(I started many large grows several years ago, before I was ready or had enough experience)


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## ProAmateur (Apr 16, 2017)

Captain Keg, after explaining, will you answer my question concerning the 4x4 footprint in a 5x5 tent?
Thanks for answering my digital timer question with inline/circulation fans. I've chosen the Titan Apollo 4 for the fixture.
--I don't believe I am attempting a large grow; 5x5 tent with 4 plants seems very manageable the first run to me. I've read for a couple years and just recently kicked it into overdrive(1yr) with research and talking to growers.
--I'll make time
---LEC's hold a cool running operation, one 315 watt bulb you can put your hand inches away without feeling intense heat. I'm thinking the heat signature will not be too noticeable. Hopefully the velocity of air through the ducting should cool it enough not to cause issues from fixture and ambient air in tent. Exhaust will be from tent to grow room for now.
---Inspections take place once a year in December, if I time it right, I'll get 3 harvests and close shop during this time for a clean inspection. Placing equipment in the attic or garage inconspicuously
---Smells during harvest have been thought of and prepared for
---I am in a legal state, and I have already become accustom to the laws, I am allowed 6 plants; so I'm doing 4
---It's a little bit of both; When Advil can't cut it and to replace money spent so I come out about even
---This is just a side hobby, if I do really well, I may pursue it even further
---I understand your concerns, once I have made up my mind, I am rarely swayed otherwise
-----I have thoroughly thought of Almost every scenario during the grow and after. I hold a passion for this, as everyone here does. The goal after this goal, is to become damn good at it.
--Success is always met with struggle, otherwise it's prolly not worth it.

Thanks for your input brother, it is well appreciated.
Just in case I overlooked something, someone like you may come along and bring it to light.


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## Captain Keg (Apr 16, 2017)

ProAmateur said:


> Captain Keg, after explaining, will you answer my question concerning the 4x4 footprint in a 5x5 tent?
> Thanks for answering my digital timer question with inline/circulation fans. I've chosen the Titan Apollo 4 for the fixture.
> --I don't believe I am attempting a large grow; 5x5 tent with 4 plants seems very manageable the first run to me. I've read for a couple years and just recently kicked it into overdrive(1yr) with research and talking to growers.
> --I'll make time
> ...



Ahh ok....that's basically answered any question I would of had. 

I had noticed you wanted 4-6lb per harvest, which I felt a little ambitious for a first time, not to mention other growers. 
This made me think, you were going for cash rather than the pleasure & experience. 
The size of your tent sounds good, I use a slightly bigger tent - but much is usually unused. 
As for the landlord, I was expecting this was monthly or something like that. I'd hardly worry about an inspection once a year. 
Legal state - perfect. I hate to hear of young guys getting arrested attempting to push for a cash crop or even just enough puff for them & their friends. 
You seem to have researched & thought this out well, personally I admire & respect that. 

As I stated before, it wasn't my intentions to put you off. Just to be sure that you've thought it out. 
I've seen too many would be growers invest hundreds & thousands into a set up or grow that goes to waste. 
Hence the, walk before you can run comment. 

As for your comment about "success & struggle" - I like your attitude, I can relate & will be following your grow. 

If you do decide to go large, don't post pics, don't mention it, etc. If it's illegal, the less that know the better - my attitude is "if I don't need to know, I'd rather not"
I learnt the hard way about that - due to my pardoners stupidity & "I'm too smart to be caught" attitude. 

Two fingers, two toes & two balls crossed for ya. 
Good luck, my friend & take care.


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## ProAmateur (Apr 16, 2017)

I had high hopes in the beginning, I have family and friends that could use it and I tried to do too much at one time so to speak. One with glaucoma, another with chronic pain, etc...
Had a cousin pass from cancer not too long ago, pretty sure CBD oil could have helped her. 
Yeah, now it's back to the reality of things and walking before running. 

Thanks again.


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## cookie master (Apr 17, 2017)

How are you waiting if you are the one providing medicine for cancer patients? They are suffering without you dr. I offered you good advice, 5x9 and 3 x lec/. the guy in your own example got 1.5 lb off 3x lec and you said you wanted 2.5x that? Now since the situation changed id suggest looking outdoors, its the season... the guy mentioned 4x4 in a 5 x5 is because the walls suck in, and if they didnt the extra space may be better used for airflow than stuffing in buds that turn moldy.


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## ProAmateur (Apr 17, 2017)

cookie master said:


> How are you waiting if you are the one providing medicine for cancer patients? They are suffering without you dr. I offered you good advice, 5x9 and 3 x lec/. the guy in your own example got 1.5 lb off 3x lec and you said you wanted 2.5x that? Now since the situation changed id suggest looking outdoors, its the season... the guy mentioned 4x4 in a 5 x5 is because the walls suck in, and if they didnt the extra space may be better used for airflow than stuffing in buds that turn moldy.


Well, aren't you just a necessary evil.....


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## PlantPlasma (May 4, 2017)

I think now is a good time for me to create an account and chime in. I'm on my second grow ever, using a 5x9 gorilla grow tent. I have 3x 400 watt (420 actual watts per light, 1,240 watts total.) Cost is $71 per month in electricity for the 3 lights and I do not have any cooling costs. I am growing in a Coco and perlite mixture and am using the entire advanced line.

I mean, the entire line... Coco grow part A, B, big bud, bud factor X, all microbes, etc. Too much to list right now, but literally ever flipping bottle. I'm on day 21 of flower. I switched on 4/12. I'm doing "advanced growing techniques" (just takes more thought) such as fimming, staking, defoliating, super cropping, lollipopping, and foliar feeding with fog.

I will gladly discuss my opinions on cost, what I've spent all together, what I'm going to potentially yield, how it was paid for etc. But any direct attacks on any method will be promptly ignored. I have reasons of doing every single thing I'm doing. Questions are welcome. Blatant "that's stupid" comments do nothing. I will explain what I think, and if your method is better, then absolutely I'd love to hear it and use it myself. I think this is working for me, and I'm jazzed about it. Let's be civil.

But I'm on day 21 and have 11 huge plants in my tent. The lights are hooked up to a light mover and the whole tent has even light distribution. Temps are a stable 92° when sealed (this is possible due to the led lights, co2, and proper nutrients.) This is my second grow ever (first one was removed forcibly, so that was fun.) Ignore anybody that says you can't do anything you desire you can. I got this whole setup piece by piece and put everything together myself. You can do it if you desire. I started with the goal of saying "I want to grow the best weed in the world." And now I say "I am going to grow the best weed in the world." It's not arrogance, it's an optimistic goal. Shoot for the highest you can possibly get. There is no reason to try anything different. Ignore anybody that says you don't have the capability to do the thing your motivation is saying you need to do.

My plants smell incredible (thank you advanced nutrients bud candy and bud factor X), look incredible (rhino skin, voodoo juice etc,) and with the power output I'm using I expect a minimum of 1 gram per watt, which is 1,260 grams or 45oz, or 2.8 pounds. These lights have been shown to produce up to 1.7g per watt, or 2,142g, 76.5oz, 4.78 pounds. Depending on your skills they could go higher with proper techniques. The closeup is my Atomic Northern Lights.

Plant strains are: Key lime Pie, Orange fruity pebbles, #10 (unique hybrid), blue Skittles, Mendo, inner chi, Suzy Q-high cbd small girl in far back left under netting, AOC (no idea what this acronym means. I keep meaning to call my source and ask her lol.), Atomic Northern Lights, Royal Orange, and midnight fire. I'm having fun, the plants are having fun. I had the idea that I could infused them with the energy that's contained in sound. So I play music for them ever moment. Mixtures of reggae, classical, some heavy metal, etc. A huge mix of people and thought and cool processes of energy. I've got a lot of ideas. I'll probably do a grow log. But I did this for the OP.

Here is my advice if you desire it.
-Make a goal
-think about the steps that need to happen to make that real
-ignore haters
-do the thing.

I've got a lot of pictures. And reasons why I chose this specific led. And how it was all thought together. We've still got a few things to solidify. Like plant spacing and a few other things. But I'm going to grow the best weed in the world. And that definition can be brought to just say "I'm going to grow the best weed in my world." This is already far passed my expectations for them at this stage. It can only get better as they grow and mature. And at the end of the day, I can do this over and over and over. These lights will last 5+ years and still maintain 80% of their original output. Hps and metal halide for example lose roughly 30% of their power within a few months I believe. But don't quote me directly on that. I can get exact numbers later. Just look into blackdog led, they have an obscene amount of data and information on their site.

I started with a cheep tent off eBay. And had to return it. Trust me, go for the big boy. You are going to be using this over and over. Get the biggest you can afford. I got my 5x9 gorilla tent for $730 I believe. Each black dog led was $1,109 for a total light cost of $3,327 and I haven't regretted any portion of the cost. Ignore haters, do it over and over, have fun.

I think now would be a good time to say that I've been scouring the internet for years reading about every detail of this process that i could find. I still have a lot to explore but I've done some great things thus far. I can likely help to find the answer to most questions you could have and I love talking about this so let's grow the best weed humans have ever created. I think I have a general (and sometimes fairly specific) understanding of nearly every aspect of this process. If you find the previous statement to be arrogant, I refer you to my statement of "any negative comments will be promptly ignored". I'm here to help, learn, and share this cool thing I've put together.

That big zoomed out picture that shows all the plants is way outdated as well. I'll upload a current one during lights on period. 

   
.


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## Slimmy jim big (May 4, 2017)

Where's all your fan leaves?


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## PlantPlasma (May 4, 2017)

I cut most of them off. Defoliation is one of the techniques I'm implementing. The first picture is on 4/23/17 of Royal orange (day 9 of flower), and the second one is of it today 5/4/17 so day 22 of flower. I'm going to be defoliating them again as well. I just got the midnight fire last night actually to free up space. Fan leaves appear to be unnecessary for the plant to produce well in a controlled environment. Cutting off the fan leaves allowed for more and better light penetration, better air flow, less trimming for future me, etc. There's lots of ideas and conflict surrounding defoliation. So far, I'd say it's worked very well for me.

I did notice that the defoliation stunted the growth slightly. And maybe the plant was forced to redistribute the energy to creating new leaves instead of buds. Bud again it appears to do that very quickly and I have so much more room now. Plus it's all just much tidier when they're slimmed down. I get to focus on just the buds, rather than a forest of leaf.

I'm not growing it at the end of the day for the fan leaves. I'm growing it for the buds. So thinking with the end in mind, I don't want to have to trim off double, or even triple what I'm going to have to trim. So I'm doing it now. The plants appear to enjoy this haircut and have produced smaller fan leaves that I believe are sufficient. 

The argument I keep getting is "the plant wouldn't have them if they weren't necessary!" "Mimic nature as much as possible!" 

I can't think of anything less "nature-like" than a hydro (fogger technically) setup, and all my other plants love those. As per the "it needs them!" Argument. I'll refer you to the appendix, tonsils, wisdom teeth, and male nipples. 

Another thing I've noticed doing my night inspections with my super handy dandy green LED headlamp is that the plants produce way better trichome wise at night. The difference is literally night and day. I've read a lot about people leaving it in darkness for extended periods of time before harvest, but that was unfortunately all anecdotal and first person. I have seen it first hand and will be experimenting with it. 

The reason why I don't use anecdotal or first person information as my go to source, is because usually it's incorrect. We can argue all day about the light spectrum, par readings, and other aspects of lighting. But I know how analytical I am, and there's a reason I went with my led setup. I dissected every single led company from top to bottom. Altogether I've probably spent 100 hours speaking to blackdog led and asking for tips and advice. They are an amazing company. I'm not sure if that statement is allowed, some forums it's not. I hope it's understood that this isn't an advertisement, I'm merely giving a good review of an investment I've made. 

HPS and metal hallide were not designed to grow plants. Nor were ceramic metal hallide, or double ended, etc. They produce too much heat, use too much electricity, have a spectrum that leaves the plants wanting more, etc. They don't contain any form of UV, or IR light, and a slew of other reasons.


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## PlantPlasma (May 4, 2017)

The atomic northern lights is by far the fastest producing strain out of all of them. Today is day 22 of flower and I'd say she's looking pretty good. 

The scrog net is going to be removed at some point. I wanted to do them throughout veg but time constraints made me decide to flower a little sooner than I wanted to. I've still gotta go trim up the dead leaves that are lurking around, and do some tidying up


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## Altered State (May 5, 2017)

Three 600's in a 4 x 8 with 6 plants should give 8 to 12 oz plants with 4 or 5 weeks veg

The limiting factor will be your lack of indoor experience

I pull 3lbs from four plants in a 4 x 6 with two 600's and 800w in leds 4 weeks veg and 12 weeks flower.


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## PlantPlasma (May 5, 2017)

You are indeed getting good results altered. With those numbers you're using 2,000watts. With a goal of 1 gram per watt at least the number breaks down to 2,000 grams, 71oz, and 4.46lbs. Your current results are 1,344 grams (3lbs), or 0.67g per watt which is great results. I don't think a lack of experience holds anyone back. I have virtually no experience and as the close-ups show my darlings are doing quite well. 

Before anyone begins a grow with hps, mh, CMH, or led, you may want to chat with me first. What I lack in physical experience, I greatly make up for in information. You will get good results any way you do it. But there are modifications you can make to the standard way that will give you results that others will tell you are impossible.


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## Altered State (May 5, 2017)

the light bill was small I varied the wattage during the grow when averaged out its around 1200 watts a month , first month was a 600w hps , 2nd month added in two led panels , 3rd both 600's and 5 170w draw panels with the last two or three weeks using 950w in led only no hps.
I have not done the math.

This grow plan to use all led due to the summer heat


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## PlantPlasma (May 5, 2017)

Altered State said:


> the light bill was small I varied the wattage during the grow when averaged out its less then 900 watts a month , first month was hps the 2nd a few led panels the part of the 3rd the rest of the panels with last two weeks led only.


I'm curious why you didn't choose a specific method and stick to it all throughout


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## Altered State (May 5, 2017)

PlantPlasma said:


> You are indeed getting good results altered. With those numbers you're using 2,000watts. With a goal of 1 gram per watt at least the number breaks down to 2,000 grams, 71oz, and 4.46lbs. Your current results are 1,344 grams (3lbs), or 0.67g per watt which is great results. I don't think a lack of experience holds anyone back. I have virtually no experience and as the close-ups show my darlings are doing quite well.
> 
> Before anyone begins a grow with hps, mh, CMH, or led, you may want to chat with me first. What I lack in physical experience, I greatly make up for in information. You will get good results any way you do it. But there are modifications you can make to the standard way that will give you results that others will tell you are impossible.


Hey plantPlasma how many watts did you go with ?


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## Altered State (May 5, 2017)

PlantPlasma said:


> I'm curious why you didn't choose a specific method and stick to it all throughout


When the plants are young the footprint allows for less wattage yet still provide full lighting as the plants grow lights are added in. 

I like to conserve where possible and blast when needed its how i keep my electric bill in check.


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## PlantPlasma (May 5, 2017)

Altered State said:


> Hey plantPlasma how many watts did you go with ?


I am using 3x Phytomax 400's that each pull 420 watts for a total of 1,260 watts. 

And electricity costs, ah yes. That was an interesting decision I made as well. Yours was made in method, mine was made in hardware. I'd love to see some pictures if you have any


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## Altered State (May 5, 2017)

three weeks ago


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## PlantPlasma (May 5, 2017)

Niceee, plants are very interesting.


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## Altered State (May 5, 2017)

The photos were taking on harvest day after 12 weeks of 12hrs


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## PlantPlasma (May 5, 2017)

ProAmateur said:


> I had high hopes in the beginning, I have family and friends that could use it and I tried to do too much at one time so to speak. One with glaucoma, another with chronic pain, etc...
> Had a cousin pass from cancer not too long ago, pretty sure CBD oil could have helped her.
> Yeah, now it's back to the reality of things and walking before running.
> 
> Thanks again.


I refer you to all my previous posts. Fortune typically favors the bold.


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## ProAmateur (May 8, 2017)

Appreciate the info and motivation.


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## Slimmy jim big (May 13, 2017)

Here's some Breeders Boutique gear 2 weeks veg .... Qrazy Quake, Hot Dog, Psycho Killer, and Plemon plus some Lemon Skunk clones


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## Slimmy jim big (May 13, 2017)

Sour Cherry, Dog Kush, Training day, and some Durban Poison


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## Slimmy jim big (May 13, 2017)

Altered State said:


> View attachment 3936736 View attachment 3936735 three weeks ago
> 
> View attachment 3936730 View attachment 3936731 View attachment 3936732


Dude those are some serious flowers! Nice job man


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## Altered State (May 13, 2017)

Thanks slim jim the plants really enjoyed themselves in the dwc the silly things like to have their roots under water 24-7 who knew who knew lol


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## ProAmateur (May 14, 2017)

Those are some inspiring grows you have going gents. 

I'll be popping beans around July from the looks of it.


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## _eNVy_ (May 15, 2017)

Anyone else here think that gorilla grow tents are outrageously priced? They do have heavier tent material and thicker posts/poles but that's about it! I just don't see that justifying a $400+ price tag. I say get a tent in the $150-200 range with decent tent fabric and good zippers. The IR blocker is kinda cool but a piece of glass blocks IR too lol.


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## ThaMagnificent (May 17, 2017)

_eNVy_ said:


> Anyone else here think that gorilla grow tents are outrageously priced? They do have heavier tent material and thicker posts/poles but that's about it! I just don't see that justifying a $400+ price tag. I say get a tent in the $150-200 range with decent tent fabric and good zippers. The IR blocker is kinda cool but a piece of glass blocks IR too lol.


The biggest thing for me was how much weight the roof can hold. Gorilla seem to hold 2x all others


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## _eNVy_ (May 17, 2017)

ThaMagnificent said:


> The biggest thing for me was how much weight the roof can hold. Gorilla seem to hold 2x all others


I agree that gorilla tents are built sturdier and have better tent material. I still think that they rape us with the pricing! It's too easy to beef up and/or reinforce any tent to hold more weight for next to nothing in cost for materials. i personally think they should be priced around the high $200 - low $300 but people obviously buy them so the prices won't drop anytime soon


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## cindysid (May 17, 2017)

I started out with 2 4x4's with a 600 watt hps in each. My first harvest was around a pound and 1/2. Second cycle, switched to 1000w hps...got about 2 1/2 lbs. 3rd run I swtched to 2 5x5 tents with 1000w hps in each...got a little over 3 lbs running Blue Dream. Now I have a 5x5 and a 9x9 room running perpetual. I trim something every week and I run a LOT of strains because I like variety. During all this time, I have bought a bunch of unneeded equipment, or stuff that just didn't perform, plus there is a definite learning curve, let me tell you! Good luck.


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## Slimmy jim big (May 17, 2017)

I hear you on the unneeded stuff lol ... I mean I have only been growing for about 4 - 5 years now and not steady, I had to take the last year off due to personal issues and lack of space but when I started my first real run I didn't know much besides what I had been reading for months and months before I was ready to "just do it" .... I built a 3x5x6 can/tent thing out of metal studs and drywall (I'm a drywaller) lol and I started seeds I got out of some quality grown GDP ( I found like 10 seeds out of a half p) I started with a bunch of little cfls then added a 400 mh and they really started to take off ..... I went and bought some AN sense grow ( lol ) and a 600 watt HPS ( which they guy at the local store said "now your ready" lol) .... I was in the store at least once a week buying stuff and talking ... I was pretty happy with my first real grow I ended up with just over a pound of surprisingly dank bud I just wish I had done a better slower job on harvesting and curing but still it was better then most of the other guys shit at work lol they even wanted to buy it but I'm too much of a push over and ended up giving it here and there instead of selling it lol .... but I must say I fell in love with the plant and growing it even more so then I love smoking it .... I still say just pop them babies put them under cfls until you can upgrade and just keep adding things week by week ya know ... it's the most rewarding feeling I've ever felt! ... and I can't spend money on a tent Is much rather build it myself where and when I can idk


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## Slimmy jim big (May 17, 2017)

How long have you been growing sid?


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## _eNVy_ (May 17, 2017)

Slimmy jim big said:


> I hear you on the unneeded stuff lol ... I mean I have only been growing for about 4 - 5 years now and not steady, I had to take the last year off due to personal issues and lack of space but when I started my first real run I didn't know much besides what I had been reading for months and months before I was ready to "just do it" .... I built a 3x5x6 can/tent thing out of metal studs and drywall (I'm a drywaller) lol and I started seeds I got out of some quality grown GDP ( I found like 10 seeds out of a half p) I started with a bunch of little cfls then added a 400 mh and they really started to take off ..... I went and bought some AN sense grow ( lol ) and a 600 watt HPS ( which they guy at the local store said "now your ready" lol) .... I was in the store at least once a week buying stuff and talking ... I was pretty happy with my first real grow I ended up with just over a pound of surprisingly dank bud I just wish I had done a better slower job on harvesting and curing but still it was better then most of the other guys shit at work lol they even wanted to buy it but I'm too much of a push over and ended up giving it here and there instead of selling it lol .... but I must say I fell in love with the plant and growing it even more so then I love smoking it .... I still say just pop them babies put them under cfls until you can upgrade and just keep adding things week by week ya know ... it's the most rewarding feeling I've ever felt! ... and I can't spend money on a tent Is much rather build it myself where and when I can idk


I think tents priced fairly are actually a better option than building a room out of studs and drywall. I mean a 5'x5' room after lumber, drywall, mud, door, reflective surfaces, etc. is probably going to cost the same if not more than a tent (Unless you go gorilla!). I've seen perpetual grows using multiple tents and others done in large rooms divided by walls. All depends on your wants/needs


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## Slimmy jim big (May 17, 2017)

Well it really doesn't cost me anything considering I get all the material from scrap at work lol but yes I can see how that would be just as costly for someone that doesn't have access to it as I do plus it's much easier setting up I guss


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## visajoe1 (May 18, 2017)

GangusKush said:


> As a medical patient in California, you can grow as much as you medically need in 100 sq ft that's a 10x10 room, if you go over that 10x10 you need permits or a count and space bump from a doctor, if medical laws are similar in other states to California you shouldn't have a problem at all, not to mention it very hard to process a warrant for cannabis related busts these day, can search due to smell, power, gardening trash in Cali, just watch that traffic if you selling!!


your county must have looser regulations. 12/6 is the standard limits statewide in CA with a simple recommendation. larger limits require a different dr recommendation and/or county/city approvals


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## visajoe1 (May 18, 2017)

_eNVy_ said:


> Anyone else here think that gorilla grow tents are outrageously priced? They do have heavier tent material and thicker posts/poles but that's about it! I just don't see that justifying a $400+ price tag. I say get a tent in the $150-200 range with decent tent fabric and good zippers. The IR blocker is kinda cool but a piece of glass blocks IR too lol.


agree. my cheap Agromax tent is still holdin it down


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## cookie master (May 19, 2017)

id hate to go cheap on a tent and wind up with it all folded up melting on the floor with plants inside...


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## Justin-case (May 19, 2017)

Lmfoa, look at this little indo grow circle jerk.


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## Justin-case (May 19, 2017)

cookie master said:


> id hate to go cheap on a tent and wind up with it all folded up melting on the floor with plants inside...



Why not? You went cheap on your president, and now he is basically having a meltdown similar to a cheap tent, just saying. You idiots might want to resock, I'm going to fuck up you pathetic grow threads. Your grows are the equivalent of little girls with easy bake ovens, too cute.


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## Justin-case (May 19, 2017)

Altered State said:


> Thanks slim jim the plants really enjoyed themselves in the dwc the silly things like to have their roots under water 24-7 who knew who knew lol


Hell, you idiots need to get out the growroom, there's a whole world out here girlz.


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## Justin-case (May 19, 2017)

visajoe1 said:


> your county must have looser regulations. 12/6 is the standard limits statewide in CA with a simple recommendation. larger limits require a different dr recommendation and/or county/city approvals



I'm sorry, but I didn't realize cranial gluteus dysplasia was treatable with mmj.


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## cookie master (May 19, 2017)

Triggered? Get over it snowflake, youll melt by getting too close to the sun/hps lamp. Edit- I meant ceramic metal halide.


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## visajoe1 (May 19, 2017)

Justin-case said:


> I'm sorry, but I didn't realize cranial gluteus dysplasia was treatable with mmj.


dont you have somewhere to protest?


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## cookie master (May 19, 2017)

protest dont start until the evening, they are too fucking lazy to be awake yet. here is their hero moldylocks- https://www.pornhub.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ph58fa53bee5626


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## Altered State (May 19, 2017)

Justin-case said:


> Hell, you idiots need to get out the growroom, there's a whole world out here girlz.


Somebody skipped their Meds too bad I can't reach over and slap him.


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## visajoe1 (May 19, 2017)

Altered State said:


> Somebody skipped their Meds too bad I can't reach over and slap him.


funny, the guy talking about the world being out there. not sure he would know? dude has 4000 posts in 8 months, which averages 16 posts per day since his Day 1 here at RIU


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## Altered State (May 19, 2017)

The guy probably grows like a child acts like one , Im tempted to go look at his plants and post a picture


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## PlantPlasma (May 24, 2017)

Justin-case said:


> Hell, you idiots need to get out the growroom, there's a whole world out here girlz.


You have 4,619 posts in the politics section and by comparison none in any other section. And you're telling other people to go outside?


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## Justin-case (May 24, 2017)

PlantPlasma said:


> You have 4,619 posts in the politics section and by comparison none in any other section. And you're telling other people to go outside?
> 
> View attachment 3948526



Hello, welcome to riu, new member. 

Lol, yes, I am well aware of how many posts I have made and where. No pic was necessary, but I'm flattered you took the time I'd also like to leave you an open invite to the politics section. We have a great group of people at the moment. I'd love to learn your views on some of the many topics surrounding mmj, including our new president and his policies on the drug war, legalization, ect. We are living in some interesting times, much to talk about, enjoy.


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## PlantPlasma (May 24, 2017)

Justin-case said:


> Hello, welcome to riu, new member.
> 
> Lol, yes, I am well aware of how many posts I have made and where. No pic was necessary, but I'm flattered you took the time I'd also like to leave you an open invite to the politics section. We have a great group of people at the moment. I'd love to learn your views on some of the many topics surrounding mmj, including our new president and his policies on the drug war, legalization, ect. We are living in some interesting times, much to talk about, enjoy.


I don't converse with people who use the experience or longevity hammer as an all powerful "I'm right because I've been doing this for x number of time." Plus, you're a bit of a dick for no reason. So I thank you for your invite, and attempt at being cordial, but I must decline.


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## Justin-case (May 24, 2017)

PlantPlasma said:


> I don't converse with people who use the experience or longevity hammer as an all powerful "I'm right because I've been doing this for x number of time." Plus, you're a bit of a dick for no reason. So I thank you for your invite, and attempt at being cordial, but I must decline.



Oh stop...don't be soooo emotional


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## PlantPlasma (May 24, 2017)

Justin-case said:


> Oh stop...don't be soooo emotional


You get a reply, solely because of the eye roll. That had about 4% emotion in it. If anything it was lacking. Your eye roll confirms the "you're a dick for no reason idea" and thus we are at an end point. I wish you luck in your ventures, and have a good night.


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