# Al B. FAQt



## Al B. Fuct (Jul 30, 2008)

Greetings and hallucinations. 

So I went on holiday back at the end of May, came back a couple weeks later and _instantly_ got pneumonia. My mate bongjockey came to the rescue and babysat the op (again) while my veterinarian was fixing me up (thx agn beej ). Still feeling kinda ordinary but not spending all day in bed now, at very least. 

The *Get a harvest every 2 weeks *thread had gotten far too long to be useful. Understandably (to some degree), people were not reading the whole thread (often not even post 1, page 1) and I wound up getting the same questions over and over. That thread was closed and stickied when I split for the south Pacific. The thread started out being about my rotating SoG op but kinda turned into "Ask Al." 

I do have some particular opinions about grow ops. I'm focused on growing _*useful *_quantities of dope in limited floorspace by means that will work for everyone, every time, at reasonable total cost and low effort. That means SoG, with clones under fluoros, veg & flower under HID lighting.

Because I'm a stoned slacker, I think ops should take as little effort as possible and everything that happens in the op should have a basis in replicatable science. I don't like wasting time on experimental stuff or blowing money on 'magic sauces' where you really don't know what's in them. 

Please don't ask me about LEDs (expensive time wasters), flowering with fluoros/CFLs or Aerogardens (too small to be useful AND ridiculously expensive). 

If you're a noob, read *How not to grow dope. *Might look like a humour piece but it's really a list of just about everything wrong you can do in a grow op. Stoney McDoper's greatest fault is that he thinks MOAR IS ALWAYS BETTER. It ain't. In a grow op, there's not enough, just right and *dead*. 

If you want a perpetual self-supply of smoke, ESPECIALLY if you're a noob, use tried and proven methods. Find an op depicted on here that is demonstrably producing well and copy it to the letter. 

Simpler is better, every single time. A bunch of people have asked me to write a grow book. If I did, I bet could do it in 10 pages or less. It'd be more cookbook than grow book as I wouldn't attempt to cover all ways of growing, rather just present a recipe for the most efficient and productive grow one person can do in spare space. If you want to do a warehouse, I'm not your guy.
I'm by no means an expert in all styles of growing and there's better plant problem troubleshooters out there than me (potroast in particular) and numerous soil/outdoor experts on board, but if you have questions about doing an indoor hydroponic grow, you can ask them here. 

Since the Get A Harvest Every 2 Weeks thread was closed, folks have a tendency to ask me stuff in unrelated threads. I'm sure the thread starters would prefer their threads are not hijacked. Please put your queries for me in this thread- easier for me to keep track and hopefully will make other folks happier, too.


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## potroast (Jul 30, 2008)

Hey, palomine, it's good to hear that you are getting back in shape.

I've got one question that's been bothering me, and I'm sure others are wondering, too.

How do I hide my grow from my DAD?


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 30, 2008)

potroast said:


> Hey, palomine, it's good to hear that you are getting back in shape.


Thanks, not doing the dead thing just yet. Maybe later, hopefully not soon. 



> I've got one question that's been bothering me, and I'm sure others are wondering, too.
> 
> How do I hide my grow from my DAD?


bwaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahha

Easy, just put a photo of your mom on the door.


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## dertmagert (Jul 30, 2008)

hey... good to have you back al.. since you have been away, i have remodeled my grow based on your "get a harvest every 2 weeks" ... im using soil tho.. 

this past saturday i threw in my fourth set.. and i was planning on harvesting the first set in 2 weeks (when i have another set ready to replace them)... however, the plants in my first set dont look to be ready enough to begin flushing... i think they are going to need ANOTHER 2 weeks... 

so my problem is this - 
i planned on harvesting on week 8, so i pretty much stuffed the room full so i would have to remove a set to put another set in... 
after doing some research on the strain ( Black Rose by Heath Robinson ) i have found that it does need 10 weeks ... 

some of the hairs are begining to turn a bit orange, but they are still exploding with white... ill post some pics in a bit when the lights come on... 

i would hate to harvest them 2 weeks too soon, but i dont know if i could fit another set in there!... well, im sure i could get crafty,.. any kind of help u can give me with this scenario?

would 2 weeks too early be a waste of 8 whole weeks? should i wait out the other 2 weeks and just put the newest set in free space in the room (that isnt directly under the light?) or should i put the oldest ones in the less lit area?


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## dertmagert (Jul 30, 2008)

heres a pic of the one of my second set (nirvana chrystal) at 3 weeks,,, 









i decided to lollipop this set (which is more of what u already said to do ) and i am getting much better vertical growth than on the first set ( black rose) ..

i didnt force the first set up and they just branched out... they were flowered with no veg time so i guess they didnt have enough time to be able to branch out properly so they just have these short buddy branches... im going to have a pic of those in an hour...

the third set i put in was black rose, which i also lollipopped and have much taller, single cola plants, that are growing less buds but are much larger.. 

and the fourth set is chrystal (see the pattern?) BR - CHRYSTAL - BR - CHRYSTAL..


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## dertmagert (Jul 30, 2008)

ok.. heres the plant in question... AL .. can u tell by looking at these pics if they are ready to start flushing or if i should wait 2 more weeks?


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## CALIGIRL (Jul 30, 2008)

subscribed =)


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## saine420 (Jul 30, 2008)

Welcome back Al, I am sure I will have some questions for you soon. Thanks again for all the knowledge you share. Consider me on board. I can't wait to see how long till someone asks a question already asked and answered on this thread.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 30, 2008)

dertmagert said:


> i have found that it does need 10 weeks ...


You can blame the 2 week delay on soil vs. hydro. 



> i dont know if i could fit another set in there!... well, im sure i could get crafty,.. any kind of help u can give me with this scenario?


If you're intent on using soil, you'll have to reduce the number of plants you put in the room for each batch as they will probably need 10 wks on avg. Instead of putting in 25% of the quantity of plants that will fit in the op each 2 wks, reduce that to 20% and harvest after 10 wks instead of 8. 



> would 2 weeks too early be a waste of 8 whole weeks? should i wait out the other 2 weeks and just put the newest set in free space in the room (that isnt directly under the light?) or should i put the oldest ones in the less lit area?


Keep your maturing plants under the strongest light. About 20-30% of bud mass is formed in the last 2 wks of an 8 wk cycle and buds need as much light as you can throw at them for best weight and density. If your plants are going a bit slow, you can shift that quotation of greatest production to the last 2 weeks of your 10 wk cycle. 



dertmagert said:


> heres a pic of the one of my second set (nirvana chrystal) at 3 weeks,,,
> 
> i decided to lollipop this set (which is more of what u already said to do ) and i am getting much better vertical growth than on the first set ( black rose) ..


This plant looks great! Exactly how it should look at about 3 wks. Could do with more aggressive pruning of lower branches, though. 



> i didnt force the first set up and they just branched out... they were flowered with no veg time so i guess they didnt have enough time to be able to branch out properly so they just have these short buddy branches... im going to have a pic of those in an hour...


Putting clones straight in to 12/12 will cause them to reduce their veg growth, tapering off over about 4 wks until vegetative growth all but stops. 



dertmagert said:


> ok.. heres the plant in question... AL .. can u tell by looking at these pics if they are ready to start flushing or if i should wait 2 more weeks?


 ooh- those plants have big problems. They are browning off because they are dying prematurely, not because they're mature. They should be developing a LOT more bud mass than that before the calyxes start turning colour, which will naturally occur in a healthy plant when they've run their course of flowering, normally 8 wks. 

The sallow leaves and poor development are a telltale. My guess would be root disease, perhaps related to poor drainage or overwatering. potroast or soil experts may have a second opinion. 

Do you let the pots get rather light before watering again or do you give a certain amt of water each time regardless of pot heft feel?

Flushing is optional in any case. I don't bother. Makes no difference to the smoking quality.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 30, 2008)

CALIGIRL said:


> subscribed =)


coolio. 



saine420 said:


> Welcome back Al, I am sure I will have some questions for you soon. Thanks again for all the knowledge you share. Consider me on board. I can't wait to see how long till someone asks a question already asked and answered on this thread.


Thanks. 

The repeat queries will appear... oh, hell lemme take a punt... on page 2 of the thread.


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## Stoney McDoper (Jul 30, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Stoney McDoper's greatest fault is that he thinks MOAR IS ALWAYS BETTER. It ain't. In a grow op, there's not enough, just right and *dead*.


Al B damned. r u maken fun of me agin?

I dont think moar is always better. I think MOAR IS NOT [email protected]! Thats difrent.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 30, 2008)

Stoney McDoper said:


> Al B damned. r u maken fun of me agin?


You bet I am!  

Nice zorsts on the Merc, man.


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## grandpabear3 (Jul 30, 2008)

sweet jesus's bongwater i are subscribifying


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## Stoney McFried (Jul 30, 2008)

Great, now everybody's gonna confuse me with McDoper.Subscribed.


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## andy7000 (Jul 30, 2008)

Hi Al B,
hyperthetically speaking, i'm just finished harvest and cutting, i weigh my bud and it's 1000g (1kg), how much weight out of that am i expected to have when fully dried?


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## CALIGIRL (Jul 30, 2008)

Hey alb,
sorry to bug ya but just to clear things up, 
Heres a pic of one of my plants at 2-3 weeks flower I trimmed the bottom 1/3









I drew some red lines where i SHOULD cut as well? If i cut all these branches off that are longer then 1 in. I will just have basically the main stem ( hopfully thats what i want?) 







Thanks a whole bunch


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## CALIGIRL (Jul 30, 2008)

One more thing =)
I flowered all my clones at about 6-9inches,
But now most of them are over 2 ft and 1 is even at 3ft 
Is this good bad? Do you know why this happens

Thanks ALBfuct!


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## torrezzz (Jul 30, 2008)

Hey Al. Im trying to mimic your setup and my 4x4 table with 29 babies have started to show roots going through the pots and onto the table. Should I attempt to stop this? The pots are hydroton because I had that more handy than fytocell. Also, I flood 4 times a day to 3 inches deep, should I go more?


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## Hydrotech364 (Jul 30, 2008)

*Hey al i have a gif editing program and i tweaked youre sig gif some time when youre on ill switch it over so you can download it and see if ya wanna keep it PEACE man,,,,*


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2008)

andy7000 said:


> Hi Al B,
> hyperthetically speaking, i'm just finished harvest and cutting, i weigh my bud and it's 1000g (1kg), how much weight out of that am i expected to have when fully dried?


About 250g. You'll usually see 25% of wet weight remaining when it's smokably dry.



CALIGIRL said:


> I drew some red lines where i SHOULD cut as well? If i cut all these branches off that are longer then 1 in. I will just have basically the main stem ( hopfully thats what i want?)


Perfect.  Well illustrated. That's exactly what you want. Now, get about 45 of those under a 1000 & call me in 8 weeks.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2008)

CALIGIRL said:


> One more thing =)
> I flowered all my clones at about 6-9inches,
> But now most of them are over 2 ft and 1 is even at 3ft
> Is this good bad? Do you know why this happens


That's just about normal. 

A clone which has come from a mother in veg mode and which after cutting has been kept in a clonebox under veg cycle lighting, will itself be in full veg mode. 

They don't switch modes overnight. When you chuck it in to flower, the vegetative habit will taper off and flowering habit (bud production) will begin in earnest. It will take 4 weeks for your clone to stop growing vegetatively and fully turn to flowering mode. Until wk 4, it will keep gaining vertical height and will TRY to send out branches (if you let it). Around wk 4 of flowering, it will totally stop gaining height and sending out branching and will begin to pack on the buds.


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## CALIGIRL (Jul 31, 2008)

all my questions anwsered, I will show you pics in 6 weeks!
Thanks =)


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2008)

bewdy, looking forward to it.


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## CALIGIRL (Jul 31, 2008)

=( looks like i ran into another question,
Under each of those branches is a fan leaf, should i be cutting those as well? 

Now


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## CALIGIRL (Jul 31, 2008)

oops got cut off,

NOW after this ill post pics in 8 weeks hehe =)


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2008)

torrezzz said:


> Hey Al. Im trying to mimic your setup and my 4x4 table with 29 babies have started to show roots going through the pots and onto the table. Should I attempt to stop this? The pots are hydroton because I had that more handy than fytocell. Also, I flood 4 times a day to 3 inches deep, should I go more?


 Roots which escape pot drain holes usually get 'air-pruned', ie get too dry to keep growing and lose their tips, keeping themselves neat and short. If you're flooding often, the roots may escape the pots and survive to get long and knit with other plants' roots. Doesn't help your plant portability- you don't want to tear roots just to move a plant, They should not be allowed to escape and knit. 

If that's happening for you, trim them back to the drain holes. Do this often when they're small shoots, and the plant won't miss them. It will just divert and make more rootmass inside the pot. If you let roots get long and form taproots, that becomes a big supply pipe, which if you break, may cause the plant to show signs similar to transplant shock (wilting, growth pause, etc). 

Pellets can be flooded very frequently. If you have vigorously growing plants, you may flood 5x/lights on or more if they don't mind. More actually is better in this case as pellets are almost impossible to overwater due to the large airspaces. The more oxygenated nutes you can flow through the rootmass, the better. 

There's a limit; plants in pellets would not like to have roots constantly submerged unless you were routing a freshly oxygenated solution through them all the time. Pumping aerated water from a rez tank into a constantly flooded tray wouldn't be enough oxygenation- even going through the water pump drives some oxygen from the solution. The Deep Water Culture (DWC, aka bubbler) method permits constant root submersion by providing an airstone for each plant. However, in DWC, if your air supply fails, your plants can die in a matter of hours. Redundant air pumps/stones and backup AC power for air pumps is a verrrrrry good idea in DWC ops. A power failure is a big deal in a DWC op. You can lose the lot in hours.



hydrotech364 said:


> *Hey al i have a gif editing program and i tweaked youre sig gif some time when youre on ill switch it over so you can download it and see if ya wanna keep it PEACE man,,,,*


 Post it in your gallery & I'll have a look.  Thanks. 



CALIGIRL said:


> =( looks like i ran into another question,
> Under each of those branches is a fan leaf, should i be cutting those as well?


Yep, the leaf can go, along with the branch. 



CALIGIRL said:


> oops got cut off,
> 
> NOW after this ill post pics in 8 weeks hehe =)


heh, OK


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## saine420 (Jul 31, 2008)

Hey Al I was reading your reply on feeding using hydroton, and you were saying the more the watering the better, up to 5 times a day I believe you said. My question is how long is a good amount of time for each watering? The timer I have been using waters for about 20 min each time. Is this to long if I did the 5 times a day watering, should I run a digital timer and lower the time. Also as the plant grows does it make a difference feeding the girls more or less often?


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## brontobrandon1 (Jul 31, 2008)

wow al i learn so dam much everytime you get on haha. i cant wait for a couple more weeks im going to have harvests every 2 weeeks =D


later


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2008)

saine420 said:


> how long is a good amount of time for each watering?


Just long enough to raise the flood level to the overflow. You're right, 20 mins flood is too long, should be closer to 3-5mins. Yes, use a digital timer. Digitals allow single minute increment programming. 



brontobrandon1 said:


> wow al i learn so dam much everytime you get on haha. i cant wait for a couple more weeks im going to have harvests every 2 weeeks


coolio.


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## ZEN MASTER (Jul 31, 2008)

before i start i want to say the this isn't a Al b. fuct ass kissing celebration, it's just a fellow smoker saying thanks.
hey what's going on dude?you don't know me cuz i'm new ot the sight,but i wanted to say that i am glad that you are ok and somewhat back in action. you know they say "you never miss your water until the well runs dry". i'm saying that to say you might not know it, but in my opinion you are a invaluable source of not just knowledge, but in my case inspiration. for the simple fact that when you are on you are always extremely helpful to the best of your ability, which to me is stellar,you may be a little sarcastic at times but never insulting, and always funny(to me), and no matter what you always make a person feel like "I can do it". Its just a good feeling to know that there are still people in this game that have not turned to cut-throat tactics, and ventured to the darkside of the weed game(thinking of themselves only)and are willing to be somewhat of a "MENTOR TO THE MASSES". because the more of us that there are out there,the stronger we become.I usually don't post alot of post,but i read EVERYTHING you post. So hey man stay up, keep bangin out that good shit, and thanks for being who you are.
Wow looks like I did kinda get my nose in there abit, huh?

P.S. i knew that the 2 wk harvest post might not last that long, because you would probably be overwhelmed by the barrage of questions from everyone that didn't read the post completly,so i added it to my favorites just in case, and for reference material.
AL B. FUCT you fucking rock dude!!!!!!!!!!!!
PEACE!!!!


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## Stoney McFried (Jul 31, 2008)

I got a question for ya, AL.If I wanted a strain that would hit me HARD and last LONG(I Have a high tolerance),do you have any recommendations?Btw, I'm an indoor soil grower.


Al B. Fuct said:


> Just long enough to raise the flood level to the overflow. You're right, 20 mins flood is too long, should be closer to 3-5mins. Yes, use a digital timer. Digitals allow single minute increment programming.
> 
> 
> 
> coolio.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2008)

This is a cross post from another thread, kinda belongs here. 


> pimpnitjc said:
> 
> 
> > Hey AL, B Fuct, what do you put in your tray around your rockwool cubes, hydrotron or do u put nothing.
> ...


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2008)

ZEN MASTER said:


> before i start i want to say the this isn't a Al b. fuct ass kissing celebration, it's just a fellow smoker saying thanks.


Well, thank you right back. 


> hey what's going on dude?you don't know me cuz i'm new ot the sight,but i wanted to say that i am glad that you are ok and somewhat back in action. you know they say "you never miss your water until the well runs dry". i'm saying that to say you might not know it, but in my opinion you are a invaluable source of not just knowledge, but in my case inspiration. for the simple fact that when you are on you are always extremely helpful to the best of your ability, which to me is stellar,


Thanks again. 



> you may be a little sarcastic at times but never insulting, and always funny(to me)


Oh... make NO mistake, I _*can*_ be insulting, but only to the most deserving of fuckwits. Some folks have to learn the hard way that the only thing you get from being rude to me is that I can be _*much*_ more rude than you could _ever _imagine.  

I don't bite noobs, though. Pointless. Noobism is (almost) always curable with a little information and experience. I DO lose patience with _willfully_ dumb people who insist that wives' tales or outright misinformation trump replicatable science. That sort of nonsense will get sarcasm out of me quick-smart, but I don't think that's too unreasonable. Even when I'm picking on people, I try to make them laugh while I'm doing it.



> and no matter what you always make a person feel like "I can do it".


See, that's the thing- anyone _*can*_ do this. It really doesn't have to be complicated. However, I know what you're talking about... some people on pot boards can have ego issues and try to make out that only they know how to do something. If I'm the only person that can do some particular thing, I _know _I've gotten it wrong or overcomplicated it somewhere. Everything should be replicatable by others, easily and independently. 



> Its just a good feeling to know that there are still people in this game that have not turned to cut-throat tactics, and ventured to the darkside of the weed game(thinking of themselves only)and are willing to be somewhat of a "MENTOR TO THE MASSES". because the more of us that there are out there,the stronger we become.I usually don't post alot of post,but i read EVERYTHING you post. So hey man stay up, keep bangin out that good shit, and thanks for being who you are.


*blush* 

Thanks for that. 



> Wow looks like I did kinda get my nose in there abit, huh?


It's cool, I bathe often, your nose ought not to come out too brown. 



> P.S. i knew that the 2 wk harvest post might not last that long, because you would probably be overwhelmed by the barrage of questions from everyone that didn't read the post completly,so i added it to my favorites just in case, and for reference material.
> AL B. FUCT you fucking rock dude!!!!!!!!!!!!
> PEACE!!!!


heh, thanks again. That thread ran for about a year and a half and remains stickied at the top of this subforum. It has gotten more than 110,000 reads, about 15,000 since the thread was closed. Other folks must be using it as a reference as well.

I'll probably wind up re-covering most of what's in that one in this thread, but I don't mind.




Stoney McFried said:


> I got a question for ya, AL.If I wanted a strain that would hit me HARD and last LONG(I Have a high tolerance),do you have any recommendations?Btw, I'm an indoor soil grower.


Hard & long? *BABY!* You must want that Johnny Holmes strain. 

Kidding aside, you probably want some sort of indica dominant hybrid. They tend to give a heavy buzz that does last a while. You may want to have a couple of strains as some folks develop a tolerance. I have grown Sweet Tooth #4 since 2002 and have not developed any tolerance to it (nor has any of the several others who smoke my buds), but everyone's different.Your mileage may vary.


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## Stoney McFried (Jul 31, 2008)

Awesome!Thanks Al...and I think John Holmes got considerably less attractive when he DIED!


Al B. Fuct said:


> Hard & long? *BABY!* You must want that Johnny Holmes strain.
> 
> Kidding aside, you probably want some sort of indica dominant hybrid. They tend to give a heavy buzz that does last a while. You may want to have a couple of strains as some folks develop a tolerance. I have grown Sweet Tooth #4 since 2002 and have not developed any tolerance to it (nor has any of the several others who smoke my buds), but everyone's different.Your mileage may vary.


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## WWgrower (Jul 31, 2008)

Hi al , not to change the subject, but to change the subject back to water. I live in the mountains in the east. I have to use a well for the house water. The water has a low to high iron count to it. I guess Iam asking with the iron in the water is it still alright to use this water for my drip system. I just got through with a grow and used store bought water. Cost a small fortune. Next grow will be in the winter so I will collect snow then, but if it gets scarce would like a opinion on the iron water. One last thing am thinking of getting a 600 digital light. What's your opinion of them? Thanks I'll toke up and wait for you reply.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2008)

Stoney McFried said:


> Awesome!Thanks Al...and I think John Holmes got considerably less attractive when he DIED!


I tend to agree, dead is just not *hawt*... but you know, necrophilia means never having to say you're sorry. 



WWgrower said:


> Hi al , not to change the subject,


Oh, perfectly fine to change the subject. This is kind of a free-form thread intended for just that sort of wandering. 



> but to change the subject back to water. I live in the mountains in the east.


East of... Mars? 



> I have to use a well for the house water. The water has a low to high iron count to it. I guess Iam asking with the iron in the water is it still alright to use this water for my drip system.


Iron's fine. It may stain your rez tanks but won't generally hurt the plants. Iron toxicity is pretty rare in cannabis but would appear as bronzed leaves with brown spotting. Iron deficiencies are much more common, particularly when one is using distilled or RO waters, which are absent all minerals.

However, the drip system itself may bite you. You MUST clean those drippers with a toothbrush and clean water at least every other day. If you don't, they will crust up with nutrient salts and clog. Once crusty, a toothbrush won't remove the crust and you will be tempted to clear the drippers with a pin or something- this is sure to damage the dripper. Keep spare dripper heads on hand just in case. 



> I just got through with a grow and used store bought water. Cost a small fortune.


Yeah, it would! I use about 1200L per month in my op. Out of the tap, that's about $1 (80c/kilolitre). I recover about 10L of distilled water per day from my dehumidifier, which I recycle back into the tanks. Saves about 300L per month from coming out of the tap, but I can guarantee you that it costs LOTS more in electricity to run the dehumidifier (400 watts, 24/7/365) than it would to draw 300L of water out of the tap. 



> One last thing am thinking of getting a 600 digital light. What's your opinion of them?


Electronic (rather deceptively called 'digital') ballasts are not on my favourites list. I can get a standard inductive (aka 'magnetic') 600W HPS ballast for about 20% of what is asked for an electronic ballast. A ballast is a current limiter. That function is accomplished quite easily with a coil of copper wire on an iron core with much greater average reliability than with an electronic circuit. Electronic ballasts control current with semiconductor devices (SCRs or triacs) and some control circuitry. A coil of wire on an iron core will ALWAYS outlast a semiconductor junction and all the associated soldered connections. 

I have tested a Lumatek 600W electronic ballast side by side with a standard 600 magnetic. Despite Lumatek's sales claim of 'up to 30% more luminous output' with their ballast, the luminous intensity delivered is absolutely identical to that from a standard ballast. The Lumatek drew 55W less from AC mains power than the magnetic; magnetics waste some power as heat via eddy currents in the iron core. That's a savings of about 9%. It'd take you many years, far in excess of the roughly 5 year lifetime of the electronic ballast, to recover the cost difference between a magnetic and an inductive ballast. Standard ballasts are renowned for their durability. It's not unusual to see 20+ year old ballasts in service. My pair of 1000W CWA ballasts are now about 10 years old and remain silent and work fine.


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## dertmagert (Jul 31, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Do you let the pots get rather light before watering again or do you give a certain amt of water each time regardless of pot heft feel?
> 
> Flushing is optional in any case. I don't bother. Makes no difference to the smoking quality.



yes... my pots are very light before i water.. i have very high temps so they suck the pot dry quickly.. i have to water/feed every other day
i might add that the plants in the first set took a bit of stress when i first put them into the flowering room (the temps were in the 90s.. and it made them hault growth for a couple days) 

since then i managed to bring the room down a couple degrees (still way too high for a plants comfort ) and i found that if i take the clones from the cloning chamber (powered by a single floro), and place them in the veg chamber for 24-48 hours (this room has 8 CFLs, and a higher temp than the cloning chamber) it relieves them of that initial heat stress...
set 2, 3, and 4 have not had any ill effects that the first set did. 

so what do u think? probably due to heat?


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2008)

dertmagert said:


> yes... my pots are very light before i water.. i have very high temps
> 
> [...]
> 
> probably due to heat?


Say no more. That's the problem. 

You're looking for 25C +/- 1C (24-26C), day and night. 

No exaggeration, cooltubes are a magic bullet for hot ops. They need to source and dump their air from outside the room's airmass and have their own blower to be effective. The cooltube blower should be on its own timer, set to run during lights on plus about 15 mins extra at the end of the cycle to cool down the tubes and sockets. This will extend the life of both. A 150mm axial blower will do for up to 3 cooltubes in series with about 4m total duct length. Costed it out once- the cooltube blower itself costs about 30c per month to run but causes my big 200W centrifugal main exhaust blower to run only about 25% as often as it used to before cooltubery. 

Cooltubes totally fixed my op's persistent air temp stability problems. Cooltubes prevent the warm air convected off the lights from mingling with the room's airmass. In concert with a thermostatically controlled exhaust blower, you should be able to maintain that 25C setpoint at all times as long as you have air at 25C or below to draw into the op. 







Seriously, just get some.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2008)

I opined:



> Don't waste your money on fancy water. Municipal tapwater is fine.


About the only exception to this is if you have a bore that has high salinity. That's really the only situation where I'd consider using RO or distilled water. Salt will stunt if not kill cannabis plants. 

As a rule, if you can safely drink it, you can grow cannabis with it.


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## dertmagert (Jul 31, 2008)

ok.. your not the first person to tell me that a cool tube would do the trick.. but you are the most reputable!.. 

since i planned on investing in a portable ac ( which is expensive in electricity consumption alone ) i will definately try a cool tube first... 

the only doubt i have about its function is that my grow space is a room built within a basement.. the basement itself is not air conditioned and maintains a temp of about 28

so even if i have perfect ventilation and my cool tube is cooling the light enough to not allow any raise in temp, i will still be at 28.. which is by farrrrr better than 33.. 

well.. now im going to go out and buy the thing.. what can it hurt.. 

(one more question) 


> They need to source and dump their air from outside the room's airmass and have their own blower to be effective.


the room i have is only 3.5' x 4' x 6' ... and is exhausted by a 295 cfm blower. . 
i was wondering if one could "get by" with just running the cool tube off of that, having the intake end of the cool tube pulling air from inside the grow (so it could double as cooling/exhaust) 

... that would probably be too easy tho huh? lol


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2008)

dertmagert said:


> ok.. your not the first person to tell me that a cool tube would do the trick.. but you are the most reputable!..


Thanks for that. It's a bit of an investment but you absolutely will be pleased with them as long as you can get air through them and keep that air separate from that drawn into the op. 



> since i planned on investing in a portable ac ( which is expensive in electricity consumption alone ) i will definately try a cool tube first...


You'll _*especially*_ want cooltubes if you have aircon. It's much less power-intensive to use an air-to-air heat exchanger (ye olde cooltooob) to transfer the lamp's heat energy out of the area than it is to put it into refrigerant, pumped with a power-sucking compressor to shift it outside. Cooltubes will make your aircon run MUCH less often when your ambient temps exceed your 25C setpoint and save you some major cash off the power bill. Yes, get the cooltubes in first!


> the only doubt i have about its function is that my grow space is a room built within a basement.. the basement itself is not air conditioned and maintains a temp of about 28
> 
> so even if i have perfect ventilation and my cool tube is cooling the light enough to not allow any raise in temp, i will still be at 28.. which is by farrrrr better than 33..


28 is much more survivable than 33 for sure, but you may still have some localised heat-induced problems near the lamp tubes. Cooltubes stop most of the long wave IR heat but some short wave IR passes through the glass and will warm nearby objects- like plants. If the ambient temp is closer to 25C, that effect is minimised as the plant can dissipate heat easily into the room airmass, coincidentally allowing the lamp to be dropped down lower. A cooltubed 1000 can be run about 300-400mm off the plants at 25C.



> exhausted by a 295 cfm blower. .
> i was wondering if one could "get by" with just running the cool tube off of that, having the intake end of the cool tube pulling air from inside the grow (so it could double as cooling/exhaust)


Sorry, no. You do need a separate blower for the cooltube. The cooltube needs a constant supply of air at all times while the light is on. The cooltube fan thus can not be run on a thermostat. If you use your main exhaust blower to run the cooltube, you will not have any control over room air temp, which will be whatever ambient temp is plus a couple degrees C. 

Yes, getting another blower may be a bit of an expense, but this upgrade is really worth doing. When you're shopping for fans (150mm axial), check noise ratings. Cheaper fans are usually noisier. Go to a shop and listen to them, even if you buy the same thing online later on. If your fan does wind up making objectionable amounts of _whzzzzzzzzzzz_, use a fan motor speed controller (not a lamp dimmer!) from Ye Locale Hardewarre Shoppe to slow it down. A fan running at 80% capacity may make 50% less noise than at full boogie yet still keep the cooltube glass from warming, which is really all it has to do.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2008)

One more note on cooltubes... gonna treat y'all to a bit of my kindergarten artwork...








This is what is meant by a 'closed air circuit' for the cooltubes. It takes air from outside the room's airmass and puts it outside as well. Don't be tempted to draw air from inside the room for the cooltube. This will affect temperature stability. Use the extra bit of duct and get air from outside.

Also, the cooltube should push air through the cooltube instead of pulling it. It is more efficient for the fan to draw in denser cool air than shift warmed air. A pusher arrangement allows the fan's motor to be cooled by the airflow instead of being heated by the waste heat from the lights, which could conceivably shorten its lifespan.


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## CALIGIRL (Jul 31, 2008)

Hey al! 
Heres a picture of my first of four trays filled =)







Those are all mostly 2-3ft tall flowering for 20 days from 6-9in clones.

When i put in fill the next tray with clones, The light will be very far up because of those plants that are already in. Is this ok?

How far do you keep your lights up?

=) Everytime I think I have it down, I come up with more questions =\

Thanks


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## sparkafire (Jul 31, 2008)

Count me in!


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## sparkafire (Jul 31, 2008)

ZEN MASTER said:


> before i start i want to say the this isn't a Al b. fuct ass kissing celebration, it's just a fellow smoker saying thanks.
> hey what's going on dude?you don't know me cuz i'm new ot the sight,but i wanted to say that i am glad that you are ok and somewhat back in action. you know they say "you never miss your water until the well runs dry". i'm saying that to say you might not know it, but in my opinion you are a invaluable source of not just knowledge, but in my case inspiration. for the simple fact that when you are on you are always extremely helpful to the best of your ability, which to me is stellar,you may be a little sarcastic at times but never insulting, and always funny(to me), and no matter what you always make a person feel like "I can do it". Its just a good feeling to know that there are still people in this game that have not turned to cut-throat tactics, and ventured to the darkside of the weed game(thinking of themselves only)and are willing to be somewhat of a "MENTOR TO THE MASSES". because the more of us that there are out there,the stronger we become.I usually don't post alot of post,but i read EVERYTHING you post. So hey man stay up, keep bangin out that good shit, and thanks for being who you are.
> Wow looks like I did kinda get my nose in there abit, huh?
> 
> ...


Nice Job ZEN Master I second that motion!!! Didn't write my own for the fact that I really didn't think there was room for any more "Fuct Heads" trying to get their nose brown LOL . Its bad enough I named my grow in your honor didn't think i needed to say any more other than thanks for your help. 

My name is Sparky and I am a "Fuct Head"


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 1, 2008)

CALIGIRL said:


> Hey al!
> 
> Those are all mostly 2-3ft tall flowering for 20 days from 6-9in clones.


Curious, the internode lengths are a bit long. What's the temps like in there? Did you flower clones right after they set root with no veg time?



> When i put in fill the next tray with clones, The light will be very far up because of those plants that are already in. Is this ok?
> 
> How far do you keep your lights up?


Yeah, should be ok. The little ones catch up quick. I have 1000W HPS in cooltubes; they live about 300-400mm above the tops. 



sparkafire said:


> My name is Sparky and I am a "Fuct Head"


hahahahah 

Better than being fuct IN the head, I guess.


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## CALIGIRL (Aug 1, 2008)

Yep I flowered them right after they rooted from my areo cloner, they went from bout 7in. to 2-3 feet and still growing i think.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 1, 2008)

What's the air temp & RH looking like?

Any sativa in the DNA?


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## ZEN MASTER (Aug 1, 2008)

sparkafire said:


> Nice Job ZEN Master I second that motion!!! Didn't write my own for the fact that I really didn't think there was room for any more "Fuct Heads" trying to get their nose brown LOL . Its bad enough I named my grow in your honor didn't think i needed to say any more other than thanks for your help.
> 
> i wouldn't say that i'm a "Fuct Head" so to speak, but i am definitly a fan no..doubt..about it. i don't know, its just that he does what he really doesn't have to do for "FREE". he not only gives advice, he gives detailed advice. not theories, but some actual"this is what i did(or what i do)an this is how it worked for me" type of shit, and can back it up.and if its something he doesn't know he'll tell you where to go, and this is in his free time. so yea, he's a pretty fucking cool dude to me, wish i knew him.
> But anyway I'm out.
> ...


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## CALIGIRL (Aug 1, 2008)

The temp is around 75-85 deg. Humidity is about 50% 
Its a sativia/indica strain but from what i read its indica dominate
When i veg the same strain to mothers the leaves are big and fat
But when I put these clones into flower, the leaves are skinny
Maybe I should go with a different strain?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 1, 2008)

ZEN MASTER said:


> so yea, he's a pretty fucking cool dude to me, wish i knew him.


Succeeded in making me blush, yet again. 

Thanks. 



CALIGIRL said:


> The temp is around 75-85 deg. Humidity is about 50%
> Its a sativia/indica strain but from what i read its indica dominate
> When i veg the same strain to mothers the leaves are big and fat
> But when I put these clones into flower, the leaves are skinny
> Maybe I should go with a different strain?


Yep, sounds like an indica dom hybrid. 

Apologies in advance for my use of metric figures but I find them much easier to use. 

You're looking to maintain 25C, +/- 1C (75.2-78.8F) 85F _*is*_ too warm though and I think that's the cause of your long internodes. We're looking to top out at 27C (bout 80F) at _*absolute*_ max, and for only a short period each 'day'. Sustained 29C (85F) will cause most if not all strains to display heat-related growth habit changes; this will be especially important in later flowering. High temps can cause not just the long internode lengths but will reduce the density of your buds. High temps will cause buds to 'bolt' or produce long strands of bud material instead of making tight, dense nugs. 

If you don't have a peak memory thermometer/hygrometer in there, get one. It's a necessary bit of kit. You need to know exactly what's happening with temps & RH in there at all times, not just when you look in on it.

If you have ambient air at 25C to draw into the grow, your ventilation system should flow enough air to keep the room at 25. 

Cooltubes really are the go for getting temps under control.


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## Budsworth (Aug 1, 2008)

Al, I've seen growers cut all fan leaves at the last week or two. How bout you?? Also if your flushing for the last two weeks and you cut the top half to let the bottom
buds swell up do you stay with flushing and no nutes?? Will the bottom buds satill swell without fert??


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 1, 2008)

Budsworth said:


> Al, I've seen growers cut all fan leaves at the last week or two. How bout you??


No, I don't remove fan leaves. They are the food factories for the plant and should be left in place until harvest. Lower fans tend to yellow and drop in late flowering; this is normal. OK to remove the lowers that are yellowing. Leave the others alone.



> Also if your flushing for the last two weeks


I don't flush. I've tried this and don't find it's necessary- doesn't alter the smoking characters one bit, despite oft-repeated claims to the contrary. 

There's some times when I have the space to allow plants to flower a bit longer than the usual 8 weeks. Plants store about 2 weeks worth of nutes. If I stop feeding at 6 weeks, the plants get a bit nutrient deficient by the end of wk 8. If I have stopped feeding, they won't continue to develop post wk 8. 



> and you cut the top half to let the bottom buds swell up do you stay with flushing and no nutes?? Will the bottom buds satill swell without fert??


I don't harvest plants piecemeal. They're either ready to harvest from top to bottom or they're not. I harvest when the lower buds have developed good density, as have the buds higher up the stem.


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## LoudBlunts (Aug 1, 2008)

i can see this thread getting big quick!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 1, 2008)

> and you cut the top half to let the bottom buds swell up


A better solution to poor density on lower buds is to simply not grow any lower buds. This is one of the problems that the Sea of Green method solves. 

More kindergarten art, but you get the idea:








The SoG technique produces essentially just the very top cola and the few buds below it on the mainstem that you would find in the top couple of feet of an unpruned plant.

A couple of things need to be done to produce the SoG 'lollipop' style plant. In SoG, clones are put into 12/12 with no veg time post setting root, aside from time they spend in the clone box under fluoros, where no appreciable growth occurs. All branching on the lower 1/3 of the plant is removed; pruning is done in wk 1 and again in wk 3. Any branch that's more than about an inch long gets nipped off. This forces the plant to grow only the big nugs that are attached directly to the mainstem- and they will be larger and denser on average than unpruned plants- the plant will put resources into growing the top that would normally have gone into the fluffy, wispy lower buds. The top buds are denser than any other on the plant and produce the least amount of bud leaf per bud mass. This makes them a lot easier and faster to manicure come harvest time. 

The SoG method depends on a larger number of smaller plants. Removing the lower branching of course reduces the per-plant yield. However, you can grow as many as 4 SoG plants per sq ft, where unpruned plants may need at least a couple sq ft just for each plant. A lot of floorspace is consumed by thin lower branches which are shaded by upper foliage, naturally limiting what they can produce. SoG plants yield between 0.5-1.5oz per plant depending on strain and grow room conditions. These poorly producing lower branches will also have a lot of leaf, which restricts air circulation around the plants. SoG lollipops can really be packed in, making best use of available lighted space. Without branches, SoG plants don't crowd each other, even at 4 per sf. 





_typical SoG budstalk at harvest time- about 1oz here - this one could
have been pruned more aggressively, note lowest bud on a stem
_
The net result with SoG is you are harvesting mainly top cola buds. SoG grows produce a much higher average bud size and density compared to styles which permit growth of the lower branches. 

The downside to SoG is the high plant numbers. If you have severe penalties in your area for large plant counts or have medical grow permission for only a few plants, you may not want to do SoG. It may be better to do the 'mainstem lopped' style, which requires that the plants be vegged for a few weeks after the mainstem is clipped so that the branches will develop large enough to make some decent buddage. If you must veg plants you intend to flower later on and still want a perpetual harvest arrangement, you need a separate grow room with 18+h/day light to do your vegging. 

SoG allows you to grow the best quality and highest yield per amount of lighted floorspace of all methods- and reduces work at harvest time, to boot.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 1, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> i can see this thread getting big quick!


yeah, well, I'm kinda long-winded, which doesn't help much.


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## CALIGIRL (Aug 1, 2008)

Thanks Albfuct, 
I have cooltubes through the lights, and a fan blowing in air from outside the growtent. should i invest in a portable AC?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 1, 2008)

Depends- what is the temp of the air available to bring in the room when the room air is at 28? If the intake air is 25 and you're only getting down to 28 (and the ventilation fans are big enough for the job), there's some more efficiency to be found somewhere. 

If your intake air is above 25, you can't expect the room to come down to that temp without aircon.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 1, 2008)

CALIGIRL said:


> a fan blowing in air from outside the growtent.


Does this mean you just have a fan pointed in the tent from the outside, with no cross-flowing ventilation? You can't just pump air in without it having any way out. Warm air will just stay put.

You need an exhaust fan fitted through the ceiling or wall near the top of the tent, drawing air out. There also has to be either an intake blower or an intake vent down low so cool air can enter, as such:


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## Budsworth (Aug 1, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> No, I don't remove fan leaves. They are the food factories for the plant and should be left in place until harvest. Lower fans tend to yellow and drop in late flowering; this is normal. OK to remove the lowers that are yellowing. Leave the others alone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Thanks Al Whats your take on malasses, as everyone raves about???


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 2, 2008)

Molasses are not useful as a plant fertiliser. Molasses or any sugar added to a hydroponic system is not only of no benefit but a disaster waiting to happen. Great food for bacteria & fungi, useless for cannabis.


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## VictorVIcious (Aug 2, 2008)

And there is the book, kindergarten art and professional pictures, kids will love the camel, and that slogan I'm a Fuct Head, I love it. Still say it many times a week, your first illustration on the op makes it clear. Better let GK know his biggest thread is getting blown. VV


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## dertmagert (Aug 2, 2008)

ok.. so ive been pondering on the grow room renovation over a joint.. 

i am definately getting a cool tube and hooking it up properly ( with own blower wired to a controller/ sourced and dumped outside the grow )

i am probably going going to have to add AC as well... (the temp outside the grow is still higher than my target is (25c / 77f ) 

now, being that i have a passive intake in my grow room ( just a hole in the bottom with a light trap on the outside) and my harsh temp conditions, i have the exhaust blower on a timer to run 15 mins every hour when lights are off, and the entire span of the light cycle plus 15 minutes for cooling.. 
this is creating huge spikes ( 33c lights on / 28c lights off ) which i know CANT be good.. 

so we have already established i need to fix that.. im just a little confuzed on how to orchestrate all these fans and an AC.. . 
i know u posted a couple diagrams/info on wiring a thermostat and all... 
but im having a hard time finding that now... 
how would i make all these components run together harmoniously without fighting each other and/or making one another work harder:

1. 295 CFM exhaust blower, on timer (15 min increments)
2. portable ac ( has thermostat ) 
3. cool tube with 150mm axial fan

i would think that with the cool tube keeping the light from creating heat, the AC wouldnt have to do much work to hit the target temp. but i would need to take the exhaust off of the timer, right? and hook it to a thermostat.. because it would be just sucking out the cooled air. 

so i have been thinking about this and im a bit confuzed 
possible scenarios:

1. the room stays too cool for the exhaust thermostat to be activated - not allowing fresh air to be taken in threw my passive intake

2. the intake air is hotter than the grow rooms interior, so when the exhaust IS activated, the room will rise in temperature ( activating the AC ) which will be fighting to lower the temp with the exhaust which is raising the temp and will continue pulling in warm air until the ac can reach the target.. 

im stoned right now so maybe it will make sense later.. but its a territory ive yet roamed, so im unfamiliar with it. and u seem to have all the answers!


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## dertmagert (Aug 2, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> and that slogan I'm a Fuct Head, I love it. Still say it many times a week,


it is catchy right? 
AL should start selling merch







errr...FUCT


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## StinkBud (Aug 2, 2008)

I've been growing for 14 years with 200+ crops under my belt. I would love to not have to hassle with flushing every crop.

When I first started I didn't know about flushing. I couldn't understand why my buds tasted like well fertilized grass clippings.

My worst experience came when I tried fish emulsion right up until harvest! The bud tasted just like fish ass.

My old school grow buddy told me about flushing and I gave it a try on the next batch. Sure enough the bud burned clean and tasty.

So when I switched to hydro I assumed you would need to flush also. All the books and articles I read confirmed my thoughts. (but) My mentor told me he never flushes his plants and that you don't need to with organic nutes.

He gave me some buds to try. I didn't have the heart to tell him his bud tasted like shit and snapped, crackled and popped and left black ashes. No way was I going back to that!

I decided to try using a short 5 day flush the first time using just Clearex. The buds still came out a little tangy on the fert side but burned fairly clean.

So for awhile now I've been leaching for a day and then flushing for two weeks with water. If I could I would flush even longer.

So my question is, how do you get away without flushing?

Do you back down on your PPM the last few weeks? I run my PPM hot as fuct. 2900 PPM. 2000-2400 PPM week 7. What are you running the last two weeks?

Are your plants turning colors or staying dark green all the way to harvest?

I'm not saying your technique does not work. I'm sure it does.

I know you've done a taste test just like me (but with different results).

I'm just sitting here saying "WTF, how does he do it"? Magic? 

Tell me your secret..


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## hybrid (Aug 2, 2008)

my questions are simple.......

Do you really need ac if your temps get out of control? Some of us live in unhospitable areas and temps soar to 100 degrees during summer. Short of running the ac all day long and having to suppliment the particular area even still........what do you do?

If the mothers are subjected to this temp problem, can you correct it later by clones in better temps? Meaning, if this batch goes through as leggy and not dense or great production.........will the subsequent batches revert in better temps to make better producers?


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## overfiend (Aug 2, 2008)

wow good shit i just finished reading from page 1


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## shenagen (Aug 2, 2008)

Me too...I'm waiting for a reply for stinkbuds question. Thanks Al B for starting this...I hated going back through that other thread...I could never remember what freakin page I read stuff on....and usually gave up before I found it again.

One other thing...about the sugar comment you made...Isn't it of benefit to use sugars when you are using beneficial bact. and fungi? And in turn benefits cannabis. Thats what I was told, it seems to hold true...thoughts?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 2, 2008)

dertmagert said:


> 1. the room stays too cool for the exhaust thermostat to be activated - not allowing fresh air to be taken in threw my passive intake
> 
> 2. the intake air is hotter than the grow rooms interior, so when the exhaust IS activated, the room will rise in temperature ( activating the AC ) which will be fighting to lower the temp with the exhaust which is raising the temp and will continue pulling in warm air until the ac can reach the target..


 OK, we have a few scenarios to explore. 

With an exhaust blower but without cooltubes or aircon, the main exhaust blower should be running on a thermostat. That blower will be working pretty hard in most cases to remove the heat, so an intake fan will help the efficiency. If there's enough throughflow, the room temp will stay pretty close to the air intake temp. 

Intake blower/s should be rated about 80-90% of the CFM capacity of the exhaust blower. This keeps the room at slightly negative pressure. Any air leaks in your room construction will leak _inward_, meaning all air leaving the room is going through the exhaust blower, making it easier to control scents. Centrifugals work better on exhaust, especially if you are pushing air into a long duct or a carbon filter. Cheaper, axial blowers can be used for intakes as they are not pushing into a high static pressure or flow obstruction. 

With cooltubes but no aircon, run the exhaust blower on a thermostat set for 25C. Might be able to get away with passive intake as the exhaust blower won't be solely responsible for shifting the lamp heat out of the room.

With cooltubes, aircon and an exhaust blower, you will probably not need an intake blower. In this case, the exhaust blower should run on a digital timer (allows single minute increment programming instead of 15 min increments), about 5 mins each hour during lights on, to draw in sufficient CO2 for the plants. The aircon will control temp and RH. The cooltubes will shift the vast majority of the lighting heat out, which will make the aircon work much less hard. 

A CO2 system, while HUGELY expensive, in concert with cooltubes and aircon, can eliminate the exhaust blower/thermostat entirely. Most growers' ops are not really large enough to justify the couple $thou cost of a CO2 tank, regulator and automatic metering/measurement device. If you're going to do CO2, the only way to do it is with the proper kit. If you're trying some bodged-up method of making CO2 like dripping vinegar into baking soda, you really don't know how much CO2 you're applying- waste of time & effort. CO2 ops can be run warmer, about 29C. THC starts to break down into non-psychoactive components above 29C, so while with CO2 enrichment, plants will probably grow pretty well at up to 31-32C, the d9-THC made can be breaking down into cannabidinol or cannabidiol- while still on the buds.



dertmagert said:


> it is catchy right?
> AL should start selling merch
> 
> 
> ...


 _*Totally*_ catchy. Get them to fix the spelling, _everyone_ knows that should be' Fuct,' ferfuxsake. 



StinkBud said:


> I've been growing for 14 years with 200+ crops under my belt. I would love to not have to hassle with flushing every crop.
> 
> When I first started I didn't know about flushing. I couldn't understand why my buds tasted like well fertilized grass clippings.


 While all plant material is mainly built from cellulose, nice tasting buds taste nice because they have a lot of resin compared to the amount of cellulose. You taste the vapourised resin instead of the burning cellulose. Cellulose accounts for the grass clip flavour. If there's not a lot of resin, as might be expected from a plant that's not very healthy, you're going to taste the burning cellulose. This is also the reason why fan leaves are terrible to smoke; very little resin by weight (compared to the weight of the cellulose that the leaf is made from) is produced on fan leaves, giving them that lawn-clip flavour.

In just one example, fert burned plants don't make much resin. In cases where the nutes have been run too hot for most of flowering (but the plants have not been totally cooked) but then are run on plain water, the plant may be able to recover a bit and make some resin in those last 2 weeks. This may lead one to believe that the flavour has been improved by flushing compared to batches which were not flushed. 

I've also seen buds from real ordinary DNA come up grassy no matter what you do to them, due to poor resin production. On the other hand, buds from great DNA may produce so much resin even when grown hamhandedly that it also doesn't matter whether you flush or not. 



> My worst experience came when I tried fish emulsion right up until harvest! The bud tasted just like fish ass.


 Yep, I can see that happening! Just add tartare sauce & lemon juice, will fix it right up. 

Tells me one thing- you used too much fish emulsion. I use Charlie Carp on my organic veg patch. I've accidentally overdone it on kitchen herbs like parsley- and you can detect the flavour. However, the plant will benefit from the stuff in much smaller quantities than will produce a fishy flavour.


> My old school grow buddy told me about flushing and I gave it a try on the next batch. Sure enough the bud burned clean and tasty.


 Same thing could have been accomplished with lower doses of fish goo. 



> So when I switched to hydro I assumed you would need to flush also. All the books and articles I read confirmed my thoughts. (but) My mentor told me he never flushes his plants and that you don't need to with organic nutes.


 If you're running an _*appropriate*_ nute strength, whether 'organic' nutes or standard types, he's right, flushing isn't needed.


> He gave me some buds to try. I didn't have the heart to tell him his bud tasted like shit and snapped, crackled and popped and left black ashes. No way was I going back to that!


 Sounds like he was both overfertilisng and may also have allowed his buds to overdry. Smokable buds are around 0.5-1% water by weight. Too dry and it burns too hot, making for a harsh smoke. 



> So my question is, how do you get away without flushing?
> 
> Do you back down on your PPM the last few weeks? I run my PPM hot as fuct. 2900 PPM. 2000-2400 PPM week 7. What are you running the last two weeks?


 Back your nute strength WAY down. I'm really quite surprised you're not cooking plants at 2900ppm- or _*are *_you cooking them?

I run all 4 of my flowering tanks at 1400, from go to whoa. Could go higher without burning but 1400 produces healthy plants without nute deficiencies.



> Are your plants turning colors or staying dark green all the way to harvest?


 I get lime green growing tips when young plants are actively getting with the program; mature foliage is dark green to harvest day



> Tell me your secret..


 The difference between mine and yours appears to be the nute strength. I don't know what DNA you're running, but known good beans from a reputable breeder are necessary, anything less may give poor results.

In growing weed, more isn't usually better. There's a bell curve- 'too little,' 'just right' and *dead*. The trick with nute strength is to give only enough nutes to prevent deficiencies. They are not V8 engines, where more fuel and air always leads to more power.



hybrid said:


> my questions are simple.......
> 
> Do you really need ac if your temps get out of control? Some of us live in unhospitable areas and temps soar to 100 degrees during summer. Short of running the ac all day long and having to suppliment the particular area even still........what do you do?


 If your ambient air temps are exceeding 38C, you're going to need aircon. Cooltubes reduce the workload on the aircon unit, but when the air you have available to draw in is far hotter than your 25C target, aircon is the only way to get temps down to an acceptable level. 


> If the mothers are subjected to this temp problem, can you correct it later by clones in better temps? Meaning, if this batch goes through as leggy and not dense or great production.........will the subsequent batches revert in better temps to make better producers?


 Yep, you're right. The plant will react to temps at the time but this will not alter the DNA of the plant. In example, if your mums are subjected to excessive temps, yes, the mums may get a bit leggy, but if the clones taken from them are in a clonebox at reasonable temps as is the flowering area, they will not continue to get leggy nor make fluffy buds.



shenagen said:


> One other thing...about the sugar comment you made...Isn't it of benefit to use sugars when you are using beneficial bact. and fungi? And in turn benefits cannabis. Thats what I was told, it seems to hold true...thoughts?


The only evidence I have ever found in support of sugars is the use of debris from sugar beet or cane production used as a soil conditioner. Nowhere will you ever find any evidence that sugars are themselves useful to the plants themselves. Vascular plants make simple sugars in the process of making cellulose, the basic building block of all plants, but that doesn't mean that adding sugars (especially not complex sugars like sucrose) is useful to the plant. They probably won't make it though the root membrane. 

Yes, sugars may feed microbes _*in soil*_, some of which break down organic materials into elements the plant can use as nutrients (eg N, P & K), but you don't get your choice of *which* microbes you're feeding. You're feeding pathogens like pythium and fusarium at the same time. May the best germs win! 

In a hydroponic system, you should be growing ONE type of organism- cannabis plants. No bacteria, beneficial or not, should be living in *any* recirculating hydroponic system. Sugars of any kind added to hydro systems will quickly give you nothing more than a real mess, real fast.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 2, 2008)

While it's on my mind, I need to make a comment about organic growing. 

'Organic' does not mean 'good,' 'better' or 'safer.' It only means you are providing complex, natural biomass (ie compost or a liquid extract like compost 'tea') as a fertiliser. However, your growing plant can't use that material directly. The biomass has to be broken down into elemental components like N, P & K for the plant to absorb them. This is accomplished by microbial activity or by the material being digested and excreted as simpler material by earthworms or other low level invertebrates.

'Organic hydroponics' is almost an oxymoron. For organic materials to be used in a recirculating liquid watering system, all the biomass pretty well has to be gone, mostly broken down into elemental components. There's precious little difference between that and standard hydroponic nutrients which are made from chemicals like ammonium nitrate, etc. 

Organic systems are not generally compatible with H2O2, an important oxygenator/steriliser for recirculating hydro systems. H2O2 will break down organics and will kill any microbes in the system which you may be depending upon to break down the organic material over the life of a tank of nutrient. 

Inorganic nutes are not affected by H2O2. I don't know what I'd do if I had to run an op without H2O2. I do know it'd be a lot messier and my roots would not be as well oxygenated.


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## overfiend (Aug 2, 2008)

how much H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) can i mix w/ the water in a cloner?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 2, 2008)

overfiend said:


> how much H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) can i mix w/ the water in a cloner?


With 50% grade ('horticultural') H2O2, use 1ml/litre, every 3-4 days. Same dosage and reapplication rate in nutrient tanks. 

If you can only get 35% 'food grade' (used for sterilising food processing equip), use 1.7ml/L. 

If you're really stuck and can only get 3% 'pharmacy grade' H2O2, it's 17ml/L, which gets way out of hand when trying to dose large nute tanks. My 125L tanks would each need 2125ml of 3% every 3-4 days. When you consider that pharm grade is usually sold in 250ml bottles, that's 8.5 of them! I have 4 flowering tanks and one mother plant tank... I'd need about 36 250ml bottles of 3% every 3-4 days. You reckon the pharmacist will mind? 

I buy 25L 'carboy' jugs of 50% grade from a chemical supply house, about $125, lasts months.


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## LostInSpace... (Aug 2, 2008)

Hi Al, I got another quick question about H2O2, wen u put it in ur tanks does it change the colour of your soup? Is this normal? My tank goes from being a shade of red to almost crystal clear, is this a reaction from the H2O2 with the nutes?
Cheers in advance, 

L.I.S


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 2, 2008)

LostInSpace... said:


> My tank goes from being a shade of red to almost crystal clear, is this a reaction from the H2O2 with the nutes?


The red colour is probably vegetable dyes added to the various parts of your multipart nutes so you can tell them apart. 

Since H2O2 is a strong oxidiser, like any good bleaching agent, I would expect it is probably breaking down the complex organic dye molecules and thus removing the colour. 

It won't have any effect on inorganic materials like nutrients in the mixes, which can't be broken down any further by oxidising.


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## LostInSpace... (Aug 2, 2008)

Thanks mate, ur a champion.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 2, 2008)

We aim to please.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 2, 2008)

Another cross-post from another thread. I cover some stuff here about nute tank management that I took a fair few years to work out. 



> SmallPowerzzz said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the advise everyone. I've been having troubles with balancing my reservoir water ph before i do the weekly switch. after i add the nutes the ph is way low, so to raise it i tried to use baking soda...bad idea (salt issues)!
> ...


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## VictorVIcious (Aug 2, 2008)

Al do you have a Canna nute chart? I know you have posted what you tanks are set at, someone else was asking and I don't use the canna. VV


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## edux10 (Aug 2, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> The red colour is probably vegetable dyes added to the various parts of your multipart nutes so you can tell them apart.
> 
> Since H2O2 is a strong oxidiser, like any good bleaching agent, I would expect it is probably breaking down the complex organic dye molecules and thus removing the colour.
> 
> It won't have any effect on inorganic materials like nutrients in the mixes, which can't be broken down any further by oxidising.


thanks for all the info. Did you go to school to learn all of this or are you self taught? If you did go to school what classes did you take if you don't mind me asking.

What are all the benifits of H202? Does it help keep the roots of hydro system plants whiter? I know it adds oxygen to the root zone. Anything else?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 2, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> Al do you have a Canna nute chart? I know you have posted what you tanks are set at, someone else was asking and I don't use the canna. VV


sorry, no, haven't got a chart. To get 1400 ppm with Canna, I use 450ml each A & B in 125L water, which is 3.6ml each A & B nutes per litre of water.



edux10 said:


> thanks for all the info. Did you go to school to learn all of this or are you self taught? If you did go to school what classes did you take if you don't mind me asking.


Unfortunately, there's no accredited Marijuana University just yet.  I have a couple of uni degrees, one is BS Elec Eng, which does come in handy in the grow room. Other than that, I have just a general science education from high school. Nothing related to horticulture or hydroponics; I am self-taught in that regard. 



> What are all the benifits of H202? Does it help keep the roots of hydro system plants whiter? I know it adds oxygen to the root zone. Anything else?


H2O2 does a couple of things. As you said, it is used as a root oxygenator, but I rely mainly on 24/7/365 air pumps and bubble curtains in the tanks for oxygenation. My main purpose for H2O2 is pathogen suppression and control.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 3, 2008)

A repost, just because I _likes_ it:



> You have just invested a few hundred in a centrif fan, some acoustic damped duct and a carbon filter. However, during lights off, you notice scents wafting around the grow room? What gives?
> 
> When the lights are off, the temps in the room may not come up high enough to trigger your thermostat running the exhaust blower. Absent the blower running to push scents through the carbon filter, scents will leak where ever there is a tiny air gap in your room construction. Keeping the room at negative pressure causes air to be drawn inward through those little gaps, keeping all air exiting the op going through the carbon filter.
> 
> ...


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## chronicpenguin (Aug 3, 2008)

i have a question, sorry if its been convered. Is it possible to do SOG harvest 2 weeks in a rubbermaid plant setup, where there are 8+ plants per a rubbermaid container?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 3, 2008)

If you're talking storage tub size containers (~500mm tall), don't expect much. Such a box invites use of fluoros (or CFLs) for flowering, which will yield tiny amounts of fluffy bud. Time waster, same as PC cabinet or Aerogarden attempts. My _clonebox_ is bigger than _*all *_those examples. It may be a clever novelty to grow some midget plants in a tiny box but I've never seen anything like that make useful amounts of good smoke. 

If you seriously want to grow _*practical*_ amounts of dope, where you can't smoke 3 months' work in 3 days, start with a freestanding wardrobe (apx 2m x 1.5m x .5m) or at the lower limit, something as small as a very large chest of drawers, with a 250HPS and good temp control- a cooltube is highly recommended if not required. I have seen SoG wardrobes and similarly sized grow tents crank out 1-2oz of good solid buds every 2 weeks because these are big enough to use a small HPS.


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## hybrid (Aug 3, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> A repost, just because I _likes_ it:


Al, explain to me how this works. Im no stranger to electrical work automotive or residential but Im not getting how going parallel is varying speed.

Is it because when the thermostat says "RUN" its the path of least resistance and it follows that path to the fan? Then when it says "STOP" it now just diverts to the new path of least resistance (the non open end of the circuit) and now has to go thru the speed controller?

I just want to be clear how it works as it looks like it would go zonkers having two paths to the load. I would have been a bit worried about feedback or something.


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## pimpnitjc (Aug 3, 2008)

Al, I saw where you told one guy to lollipop aggressive. How much do you recommend to lolliepop a plant to get a good size cola?

Also,
The PPM in my water is between 300-400. So that will still be ok? Also how long should I wait before giving my week old seedlings a small amount of nutes in soil. I don't understand the subtracting the tapwater ppm from the nute formula to get your ppms.
Thanks for all your help!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 3, 2008)

hybrid said:


> A
> Is it because when the thermostat says "RUN" its the path of least resistance and it follows that path to the fan? Then when it says "STOP" it now just diverts to the new path of least resistance (the non open end of the circuit) and now has to go thru the speed controller?


Exactly right. The thermostat is just a switch. When the thermostat's contacts are closed, current simply ignores the path through the speed controller. 

When the tstat contacts are closed, the speed controller's input and output are at the same voltage potential (connected by the thermostat's switch) and thus does nothing.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 3, 2008)

pimpnitjc said:


> Al, I saw where you told one guy to lollipop aggressive. How much do you recommend to lolliepop a plant to get a good size cola?


Remove all branching on the lower 1/3 of the mainstem. Pretty much remove any branch that is more than an inch long. I prune off branching twice during flowering, once around the end of wk1 and again at the end of wk3. This will keep everything nice and close to the mainstem, preventing crowding with similarly pruned plants. A SoG plant can live in a 100mm^2 floorspace (4 per sf).



> Also, The PPM in my water is between 300-400. So that will still be ok?


Yep, that's fine. Your nutrient meter is a Total Dissolved Solids (or Salts) meter. It's a pretty crude way of measuring but effective for our purposes, if you know what's going on in your solution. A TDS meter tells you about the overall conductivity of the solution but doesn't identify each ionic compound which contributes to conductivity. Dissolved Mg and Ca in 'hard' tapwater will give you that high conductivity out of the tap but those elements, while they are essential micronutes, are not very reactive and don't contribute to the nutrient strength. 



> I don't understand the subtracting the tapwater ppm from the nute formula to get your ppms.


If you want a genuine 1400ppm worth of nutrient strength and you have 300ppm out of the tap, mix for 1700. 



> Also how long should I wait before giving my week old seedlings a small amount of nutes in soil.


Wait- you're in soil? Depends on what's in your soil. If you have a lot of organics or manures in the soil, you won't want to hit them with a 1400ppm nute solution. That number is for hydroponics. I'm not a soil guy.


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## VictorVIcious (Aug 3, 2008)

Soiled again. VVlol


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 3, 2008)

hah! 

It's off to the PUNITENTIARY with you, VV.


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## CALIGIRL (Aug 3, 2008)

Hey AL, I got my temps down to about 78deg.
But some of my plants are now 4ft tall! At 24 days flowering.
Even if the temps were at around 80-85 would that cause 6-9in clones to grow that big? 
I hope they stop growing im out of room =(

Thanks for your help!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 3, 2008)

CG, I suspect your temps were even higher than 85. Yep, even a 6-9" clone will shoot right up to 4' with high temps. You've proven it!

If you haven't worked out some better ventilation, um, you know, it might kinda be time to slot that in kinda soon, like about 3 weeks ago.


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## hybrid (Aug 3, 2008)

couldnt she just use some of that humbolt county bushmaster to stunt it?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 3, 2008)

hybrid said:


> couldnt she just use some of that humbolt county bushmaster to stunt it?


If that's a strain (one which comes up short?), special strains are not really needed in SoG. If the temps are kept to the right range (24-26C), in a SoG op where the rooted clones get zero veg time post setting root, most any strain will stop gaining height in wk4 at about 1m/3ft.


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## CALIGIRL (Aug 4, 2008)

Thanks ABF, 
Im ready to put in my next batch of clones, I have 1000k light for each pair of 3x3 tables. Should i put the next batch under a new 1000k light since the plants in my first tray is 3-4 ft tall? Or its ok if they share a light? =)


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 4, 2008)

CALIGIRL said:


> Thanks ABF,
> Im ready to put in my next batch of clones, I have 1000k light for each pair of 3x3 tables. Should i put the next batch under a new 1000k light since the plants in my first tray is 3-4 ft tall? Or its ok if they share a light? =)


1000k? You mean 1000W, right?

They _can_ share a light, but since you only have 2 batches in at the moment, you do have the luxury of running the tall and short ones under their own individual 1000, with the clearance appropriate for each batch's height. 

In future, if your temps are sorted out, your wk2-4 plants in tray2 will be about triple the height of the wk1-2 newbies in tray1. By wk4, your tallest plants should be about 3' and the 1000 in a cooltube should be about 12-18" above them. This will mean that the lamp will be about 3.5 - 4' above the tops of the tray1 newbies. This is no problem at all; the younguns will have previously been in a clonebox under fluoros. They might scorch if you brought them directly from under weak fluoro lighting to a powerful cooltubed 1000 at the optimal spacing for more mature plants, 12-18". Beginning their exposure to the big light with a large amount of space allows them to harden and acclimate to the stronger light without scorching their tender new growth. They will grow into the brighter light as they like it. 

If you choose to run the newbies under your second cooltubed 1000, space the lamp about 3-3.5' off their tops for wk1 and drop it down to 2' for wk2. 

Keep in mind that if you haven't sorted out your temp issues, a 2nd 1000 is going to make things worse. 

Also, a 1000 is not inexpensive to run. If you can run only one right now, it'll save you some dough. Eventually you will have them both running, but may as well save water while it's raining.


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## HATCH (Aug 4, 2008)

Al B. Fuct,,,Hey What's UP????,,,,,,,,,

Do You Have A Thread On CoolTube's?????,,,,,,,,,I Need To Add Some To My Grow Chamber!!!,,,,,,I Have 1000watter's In Each & It's Getting To Hot,,,,,,,I Want To Add A CoolTube With A 465cfm Active Air Fan To Each One,,,,,,Can You Give Me Some Feed-Back On The Subject????

Also, I Have Light Mover's With All The Light Horizontally,,,,,,,In One Chamber I Was Thinking Of Taking The Light Mover Out, & Center The Light Vertical With The CoolTube????,,,,,,,,,What Are Your That's On That????

My Grow Chamber's Are 7' Long x 3' Wide, Some Are 7'-8" Tall & Some Are 5'-6" Tall,,,,I Use Aeroponic's, Each Has 2-Pod' Side By Side On Each End Of The Chamber,,,There Is About 12" To 16" Between Them In The Center,,The Intake Exhaust Are 465cfm Blower's Each Have Circulating Fan's,,,And Are Linked To 1200cfm Exhaust System,,,,,,,I Have Been Able To Keep The Temp's Around 79* To 8o* As Peak,,,,,,,I Have Added Some UV. Supplementary Lighting A Few Year's Back That Brought The Temp's Up To About 85* To 87*,,,,,,,,But With This Summer's Heat Wave They Have Been Soreing To 97* To 100*.........Hopefully Adding The CoolTubes To The HID Light's Can Help Bring Them Back Down????

I'll Add A Picture Of A Chamber, Or Two, To Give You A Idea Of What I'm Working Out Of........Thank's In Advance,,,,,,,,& Best Of luck With Your Work's!!!!,,,,,,,,Later,HATCH


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 4, 2008)

HATCH said:


> Al B. Fuct,,,Hey What's UP????,,,,,,,,,


you, baby 



> Do You Have A Thread On CoolTube's?????,,,,,,,,,I Need To Add Some To My Grow Chamber!!!,,,,,,I Have 1000watter's In Each & It's Getting To Hot,,,,,,,I Want To Add A CoolTube With A 465cfm Active Air Fan To Each One,,,,,,Can You Give Me Some Feed-Back On The Subject????


No thread on cooltubes, but I've discussed them a few times.

465CFM is far too much for a cooltube. Cooltubes require their own blower which runs at all times that lights are on, but it need not be very large or powerful in most cases. They cannot share the blower that exhausts the room, as that exhaust blower will be on a thermostat, which will turn the fan on and off from time to time. The stoppage of air during lights on by the thermostat would cause the cooltubes to overheat. 

Cooltubes are usually 150mm dia and you can daisy-chain 3 in series, each housing a 1000, all driven by one 150mm axial blower (about 200CFM) pushing cool air into the ducting and running on a timer, set to switch on during lights-on, plus continue running about 15 mins after lights-off to cool down the lamps & sockets. 



> Also, I Have Light Mover's With All The Light Horizontally,,,,,,,In One Chamber I Was Thinking Of Taking The Light Mover Out, & Center The Light Vertical With The CoolTube????,,,,,,,,,What Are Your That's On That????


I'm not sure what you mean by "Center The Light Vertical With The CoolTube". 

Cooltubes can be challenging to use with movers, should you keep your mover. Must use flexible duct and assure that it stays connected to the cooltubes as things shift around. 



> I Have Added Some UV. Supplementary Lighting A Few Year's Back That Brought The Temp's Up To About 85* To 87*,,,,,,,,But With This Summer's Heat Wave They Have Been Soreing To 97* To 100*.........Hopefully Adding The CoolTubes To The HID Light's Can Help Bring Them Back Down????


I'd ditch the UV, not necessary with HPS lighting. HPS spews out *plenty* of UV, enough to trash non-UV stabilised plastics (bleaching, brittleness) left in the grow room, just as would happen to such plastics in sunlight. 

Properly set up cooltubes will remove the vast majority of the lighting heat from the room. A basic setup looks like this:








This is a closed circuit path for the cooltubes. Cooltube air is drawn from outside the room airmass and dumped outside it as well. If the air going into the intake blower is 25C or below and there is sufficient throughflow, you should be able to keep the room at 25C max. 

If the ambient air you have available to draw in is hotter than the 25C target, the only thing that will bring it down is aircon. If you must use aircon, cooltubes will make it work much less often- read 'much cheaper'. With aircon, the intake & exhaust blowers should not be on a thermostat, rather should be run on a digital timer for 5 mins/hour during lights on. The aircon will manage the temp & humidity but the exhaust blower needs to run occasionally to draw in CO2 laden air and dump CO2 depleted air. 

The cooltube ducting should be as short and straight as possible. Don't be tempted to allow the cooltube to draw air from inside the room (especially if you have aircon). This will affect temperature stability. If the total length of your duct & cooltubes is more than about 4m or if you have more than a couple 90 deg bends in the path, consider a centrifugal blower instead of an axial. Axials don't deal well with pushing into obstructions or long ducts. Centrifs can generate high pressure and cope much better with such demands.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 4, 2008)

In this pic, I see a bunch of CFLs running along with some HPS lighting. 

This is like having a model airplane engine on the nose of your 747 to help out your jet engines. The amount of light added by CFLs when you have HPS is insignificant. Save your money & ditch the CFLs.


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## HATCH (Aug 4, 2008)

Thank You Kindly Sir!!!!!,,,,,,,,This Help's Alot,,,,,& Thank You For Pionting Out My Mistake's,,,,,,,That Will Help Me Tremendously!!!!!!!

I Will Be Making These Changing ASAP!!!

In The Question, Where I Was Asking About Inverting A Light Vertically In One Of My Taller Chamber's, & Centering A 1000w.HPS In The Center So It Shined 360*,,,,,,The Question Is, Would It Be Better Vertical In This Space In The Center Or In The Center Horizontal????

I Like Your Drawing,,,,,,& That Is What I Will Be Doing With The Chamber's That Are 5'-6" & Take Out The Light Track, & Use maybe 400w,MH + 400w.HPS????,,,,,Or Just 2-HPS 430HPS????,,,,That Would Be About 800w. To 860w. Total..........Wouldn't 2000w. Be Way To Much For 21sqft????

I Would Love To Get The Chamber's Back To 25c!!!!,,,,Can't Wait On That!!!,,,,,,,I Know I'm Repeating This But, Thank You, Thank You, For The Input,,,,,,,,Some-Time's Seeing It Through Another Pair Of Eye's & Thought's Are Priceless!!!!!!!!


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## SOMEBEECH (Aug 4, 2008)

You aswered without asking,thats y i follow al.


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## Lobo69 (Aug 4, 2008)

Hey Al.
Great thread.
Just wondering if a 4 inch 160 cfm inline fan would be enough for 2 cooltubes?
If not, would it be better to get a bigger inline fan or a 150 axial?
Also, do you think I would run into much trouble for this kind of setup using 4 inch pots filled with rockwool floc for clones, placed on a table once rooted, and the table filled with hydroton 
What would be the drawbacks? I'm assuming portability(moving plants around). Anything else?
You said you use 8 inch pots filled with rockwool and fytocell ...Why use the fytocell? Is it like perlite? I'm assuming you trim the roots back from the bottom of the pot? Wouldn't this stunt growth? I guess what i'm asking is why do you choose the medium you use?
Thanks in advance.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 5, 2008)

HATCH said:


> T
> In The Question, Where I Was Asking About Inverting A Light Vertically In One Of My Taller Chamber's, & Centering A 1000w.HPS In The Center So It Shined 360*,,,,,,The Question Is, Would It Be Better Vertical In This Space In The Center Or In The Center Horizontal????


Vertical mounting of cooltubed HPS lights is kinda interesting; light is emitted mainly from the side of the tube and it's better to hit the plants with light directly from the tube than with light which has been bounced off a reflector, as occurs with half the light leaving a tube when mounting a lamp & reflector above the plants in typical fashion. 

If you do fit any cooltubed lights vertically, feed cool air in from the bottom and fit the thing so the lamp socket is at the bottom as well. Sounds a bit complex mixing vertical and horizontal fixtures though, particularly from a ducting perspective. 

Ducting is already kinda interesting in my space...






















> I Like Your Drawing,,,,,,& That Is What I Will Be Doing With The Chamber's That Are 5'-6" & Take Out The Light Track, & Use maybe 400w,MH + 400w.HPS????,,,,,Or Just 2-HPS 430HPS????,,,,That Would Be About 800w. To 860w. Total..........Wouldn't 2000w. Be Way To Much For 21sqft????


I wouldn't use MH in flowering if I were you. While it is mainly the photoperiod which determines the growth habit (flowering vs veg), the bluish spectrum in MH can induce excessive leafiness on buds in flowering. 

Where possible, cover an area with the most powerful *single* HPS lamp you can. Larger HPS lamps deliver greater intensity and are more efficient in lumens/watt. Cooltubes allow closer lamp-to-leaf spacing, allowing you to make use of that high intensity. It's a rough guide but 50W/sq ft works pretty well for HPS. With efficient batwing reflectors, horizontal HPS fixtures cover a rectangular area. A cooltubed 1000 with a batwing ref covers a 3.5'x6' area nicely and when the lamp is at 12-18" above the tops, gives the highest avg intensity of any conventional horizontal HPS arrangement.



> I Would Love To Get The Chamber's Back To 25c!!!!,,,,Can't Wait On That!!!,,,,,,,I Know I'm Repeating This But, Thank You, Thank You, For The Input,,,,,,,,Some-Time's Seeing It Through Another Pair Of Eye's & Thought's Are Priceless!!!!!!!!


No worries.  Good luck getting the temps down. Will increase your yield and density dramatically. Cooltubes will help lots!




Lobo69 said:


> Hey Al.
> Great thread.
> Just wondering if a 4 inch 160 cfm inline fan would be enough for 2 cooltubes?
> If not, would it be better to get a bigger inline fan or a 150 axial?


I think I'd opt for the 150mm axial. Not terribly expensive and the greater diameter will match the diameter of the cooltube and will flow a bit better than the 4" unit. 



> Also, do you think I would run into much trouble for this kind of setup using 4 inch pots filled with rockwool floc for clones, placed on a table once rooted, and the table filled with hydroton
> What would be the drawbacks? I'm assuming portability(moving plants around). Anything else?


Yep, portability is the main problem when planting in a common bed of any medium. Means that roots knit and if you get a dud, you can't remove it until harvest time for everything else. 



> You said you use 8 inch pots filled with rockwool and fytocell ...Why use the fytocell? Is it like perlite? I'm assuming you trim the roots back from the bottom of the pot? Wouldn't this stunt growth? I guess what i'm asking is why do you choose the medium you use?


My pots are actually 175mm dia on the top and 130mm on the bottom, 175mm tall. 175mm = 6.9". If roots escape pots, they usually get 'air pruned' since there is no medium in my trays. If you water so often that roots escape your pots and live to knit with roots of other plants, they'll be torn to buggery if you move the plants. If roots don't air-prune themselves, trim them off as they escape the pot drain holes while they are still small. The plant won't notice some small roots being trimmed off. However, if you allow the escaped roots to develop into large masses, the plant will come to depend on them and you will see transplant shock-like responses to cutting them off. If you have to trim them, do it often while the escaped roots are still small.

I use Fytocell because it is inexpensive, very light weight and easy to dispose of after a single use. I can carry 2x 100L bags with one hand. Pellets can be re-used but cleaning and sterilising them is a pain. If not cleaned and fully sterilised, root diseases can be passed from crop to crop.


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## HATCH (Aug 5, 2008)

Great Set-Up My Brother!!!!,,,,,,,,Thank You Ounce Again!!!!,,,,,,,Great Info!!!,,,,,,,I Can Take It & Run With It!!!!!!!,,,,,,,,You Have Saved The South!!!!!!!!,,,,,,,Cheer's,,,,,,Later,,,,, HATCH``~~/`^_^`\~~``kiss-ass


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## BigBudBalls (Aug 5, 2008)

Hey Al, just wondering what your take is on the Hempy buckets?

They look so simple and no equipment. Seems too good to be true.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 5, 2008)

HATCH said:


> Great Set-Up My Brother!!!!,,,,,,,,Thank You Ounce Again!!!!,,,,,,,Great Info!!!,,,,,,,I Can Take It & Run With It!!!!!!!,,,,,,,,You Have Saved The South!!!!!!!!


heh, no problem, sorry I wasn't handy in 1865. 



BigBudBalls said:


> Hey Al, just wondering what your take is on the Hempy buckets?
> 
> They look so simple and no equipment. Seems too good to be true.


Hempy evangelists swear they do not rot roots, but they do keep roots submerged without added aeration, a recipe for root rot. 

If you want a simple hydro system with no moving parts which can be run unattended for long periods, look into a wick system. 







It's just two buckets, a brick and a few 6" lengths of nylon rope used as wicks, perlite or something in the upper pot. Simply Hydro's plan uses a large tub reservoir and a tray instead of two buckets, but you get the idea. Impossible to overwater. Noobie proof.


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## BigBudBalls (Aug 5, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Hempy evangelists swear they do not rot roots, but they do keep roots submerged without added aeration, a recipe for root rot.
> 
> If you want a simple hydro system with no moving parts which can be run unattended for long periods, look into a wick system.
> 
> It's just two buckets, a brick and a few 6" lengths of nylon rope used as wicks, perlite or something in the upper pot. Simply Hydro's plan uses a large tub reservoir and a tray instead of two buckets, but you get the idea. Impossible to overwater. Noobie proof.


Thanks! Been looking into wicks for soil.

I'm just looking for a simple hands off system. Hydro or soil. Biggest 2 things that concern me with hydro is res change overs every 2 weeks and keeping the res cool. But I plan on only growing during winter, so keeping things cool might be easier.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 5, 2008)

Tank dumps are not a big deal with a spare pump and a length of garden hose. If your system is in buckets, easy to carry to the nearest sink. Wick systems still need _some _maintenance, mainly dosing the tank with 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days to keep it funk-free. 

The res just needs to stay under 27C as dissolved oxygen is lost readily at and above that temp; considering you need to hold your grow room to 25C, shouldn't be a problem. Without a pump in the res, there's nothing to warm it above 25 anyway.


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## rdgx34 (Aug 5, 2008)

this one thread is more helpful then all the other threads put together. 
Im doing sog and have tempetures from 80-90, i know its too hot but there not much i can do besides add a airconditioner which i cannot afford. I was just wondering if this will affect my yield GREATLY or slightly? Thankyou albf


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## rbahadosingh (Aug 5, 2008)

welcome back al


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 5, 2008)

rdgx34 said:


> this one thread is more helpful then all the other threads put together.
> Im doing sog and have tempetures from 80-90, i know its too hot but there not much i can do besides add a airconditioner which i cannot afford. I was just wondering if this will affect my yield GREATLY or slightly? Thankyou albf


Thanks for the praise. 

What is the temperature of the air that you are drawing into the op? If you have effective ventilation installed, your room temp should not be (much) higher than the ambient intake air temp. 

When temps start hovering at 32C/90F and above, yields will drop significantly. Buds will also tend to 'bolt' or grow long strands of bud material rather than nice, tight dense buds. As poor CG discovered, excessive temps will also cause long internodal spaces (ie plants get 'leggy'). 

Worst of all, d9-THC begins to break down into non-psychoactive components like cannabidinol & cannabidiol when temps exceed 29C. You may be growing plants that look like cannabis but get you as high as lawn clips. 

If your intake air is above 25C, the only way to get room temps down is with aircon. However, if you have cooltubes on your HPS lighting, you have a much better chance of at least getting the air temps close to the intake air temp. Cooltubes will also make your aircon, if you have it, work much less hard.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 5, 2008)

rbahadosingh said:


> welcome back al


Thanky.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 5, 2008)

Lobo69 said:


> Why use the fytocell? Is it like perlite?


I missed that query.

Aside from light weight and low cost, Fytocell has a very high air content- it's about 60% air. It is a resin based foam material which has been crumbled. It behaves a lot like crumbled foam rubber. It holds a bit of water, a good bit more than pellets, meaning there is a backup supply of water in case of a water pump failure. However, Fytocell does not hold quite as much water as does rockwool. 

The high air content is a bit of a drawback because pots of the stuff can float, though high air content also means you can flood it a lot more often than you can rockwool. I used to stuff my pots with plain RW floc, but it could only be flooded 1x/day. Fytocell can be flooded 3x/day or even more with large, mature plants. 

I do still tightly pack about 25-50mm of RW floc in the bottom of each pot. When wetted, the RW floc weights the pots down enough that they don't float. The floc also allows water to flow in and out of the pot while keeping the Fytocell crumbs from escaping.


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## stucklikechuck (Aug 5, 2008)

hi mr fuct, 
i have a question about municipal water. you said... 

"There's just no need for RO or other heroically filtered water. Chlorine is the indoor grower's friend, suppressing pathogens in rez tanks for a couple of days until the chlorine evaporates. After then, you must use an anti-microbial agent like H2O2 to keep your nutrient soup from being a friendly home to pathogens. Minerals like calcium and magnesium found in tapwater are essential micronutrients, which if they were not in the water would need to be added anyway."


i was wondering if i should fill my res and wait 24hrs to evaporate the chlorine or is that even neccessary? based on your quote it seems like i wouldnt even need to do the above step? thanks again for all your insight!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 5, 2008)

stucklikechuck said:


> based on your quote it seems like i wouldnt even need to do the above step?


You've answered your own question.


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## honkeytown (Aug 6, 2008)

subscribed...and I am sure I will have some questions for ya Al....


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## bobtokes (Aug 6, 2008)

just bein nosey


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## rbahadosingh (Aug 6, 2008)

hey al i have a sog going right now with about 40 plants. some of the bigger ones are starting to branch out. should i just let them grow or should i cut the branches? there almost in there second week and they are about a foot and a half tall.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 6, 2008)

rbahadosingh said:


> hey al i have a sog going right now with about 40 plants. some of the bigger ones are starting to branch out. should i just let them grow or should i cut the branches?


Cut those branches. Remove all branching on the lower 1/3 of the mainstem, remove pretty much anything which is over an inch long. Do it again in wk3. 



> there almost in there second week and they are about a foot and a half tall.


Sounds good.  As long as they were not given any veg time post setting root and your temps are right, they will stop gaining vertical height and sending out long branches in wk4. Ought to stop veg growth entirely with their finishing height at wk8 being about what it is in wk4, about 1m tall in most cases.


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## stucklikechuck (Aug 6, 2008)

hi al,
one more question: do i need to check the ph everyday after its in the rez? or can i just check it once after nutes are mixed and not have to worry about it until a fresh batch of nutes are mixed in 2 weeks? thanks!!!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 6, 2008)

stucklikechuck said:


> hi al,
> one more question: do i need to check the ph everyday after its in the rez? or can i just check it once after nutes are mixed and not have to worry about it until a fresh batch of nutes are mixed in 2 weeks? thanks!!!!


If there's no root diseases in the system and you are not using rockwool, I see no reason to check it all that frequently. 

pH will obviously rise if you add 7.0-8.something tapwater to a 5.8 tank, so be prepared to check & correct if you have to top up. 

Other than that, checking every few days may reveal problems you didn't know you had. I would not correct down unless pH wanders above 6.3.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 6, 2008)

As a side note, if your tanks are undersized, the plants will use up water faster than they will use up nutes. This will cause the nute ppm to rise while the water level drops. 
You must top up with plain water frequently in between bi-weekly tank dumps to keep nutrient strength from rising beyond your desired point (I use 1400ppm). There's a way to do it that will keep your nutrient strength more constant. 

When topping up with plain water, put your nutrient meter in the tank and monitor the nute strength while adding water. When the meter reading drops to the correct point, stop filling the tank. The pH will have risen, so you will need to check it & adjust it down. 

If your tanks' ppm persists in jumping up and requires a lot of attention as above to keep the nute strength down, get bigger tanks. 

If tank sizes are ideally suited to the plants they are supplying, ppm will stay relatively constant even while the water level drops. 

I accidentally happened upon this when rebuilding my op in a new location and had to replace 100L tanks with 125L units due to availability. The extra 25L was just enough to stop my tanks ppm from jumping up. Saves a lot of hassle messing with them. 

Each tank serves 23-24 plants, so at present, there's about 5L of tank volume per plant. That's enough to keep ppm constant and leave about half of the mixing-day water level by day 14 of the life of the tank of sauce, assuring the pump remains submerged when the tray is being flooded.


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 6, 2008)

ok al...i've read almost everything you've written and like a stubborn ass still try to do it my way...you once said everything you do should be replicatable and i've done my mums just like you...tried cloning in rw like you do but i sucked at it. built an aerocloner and damned if it aint workin and makin me feel pretty darn pimpish (that's a good thing) but i have neglected you on the nutes...so if you please sir 1 more time for us slackers out here....your complete line of nutes so i can quit screwin round and go get em'.


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 6, 2008)

while i'm at it is there any other nutes you would recomend, that i can still run sterile with that might even be easier then cannas part a-b and pk13/14 bla blka bla???
would love it if i could just pour 500ml of xxx and would get my 1400ppm for flower. then 650 of xxx for my mums running around 1500-1800 (1600 usually) just lookin for any shortcut i can take to keep it simple!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 6, 2008)

Aerocloners can work pretty well, I've used one before. I raise my plants in absorbent media instead of pellets and also had more reliable results from RW cubes and so ditched the aerocloner.

It is especially nice to have a rooted clone with no media attached for when you are going to raise the plant in pellets. A RW cube is a bit of a problem in pellets as it can be saturated frequently if not placed above the flood level, potentially causing overwatering-like problems in newly introduced rooted clones. If it works for you, good-o! 

I use Canna nutes. Outside of Australia, the type I use is probably labelled 'Substra' but within Aus is only labelled 'Flores' or 'Vega.' Outside of nutes, I dose tanks with 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days and correct pH as needed on mixing day. 

I've been sorting out the cause of a few leaves with cooked margins at the very end of flowering and have temporarily stopped using Canna's PK-13-14 in wk 5-6 to remove it as a possible cause. I'll probably start using it again soon. I think my leaves may just be getting a bit of wind damage from circ fans. Only plants near the circ fans are showing this and it's not really that bad. 

That's it. No magic sauces. 

If you have powdery mildew or bud mould happening in your op, get a sulfur 'burner.' The 'burner' doesn't really burn sulfur, rather evaporates it, making a very fine aerosol mist which totally stops any mould or mildew.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 6, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> while i'm at it is there any other nutes you would recomend, that i can still run sterile with that might even be easier then cannas part a-b and pk13/14 bla blka bla???
> would love it if i could just pour 500ml of xxx and would get my 1400ppm for flower. then 650 of xxx for my mums running around 1500-1800 (1600 usually) just lookin for any shortcut i can take to keep it simple!


There are some 1-part nutes out there- they are pretty rare. I have no idea why they are not more popular. May have something to do with the compatibility of the different nutrients in storage, but I'm not privy to all the ins & outs of nutrient chemistry to that level. 

I do know that if you mix multipart nutrient concentrates directly together without first dissolving them in a large volume (say, a half full res tank) of water, the mixes will react and you actually can see crystallised materials fall out of solution.


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 6, 2008)

i tried you rw cube cloning and followed your guide to a T...1.7ml/l 35% h2o2(cant get 50%) proper heat mat with thermostat set at 27c i used olivias cause i had it instead of powder. i raised 6 moms that are big and angry and provide those trademark huge ass clones of yours...everything!!! and promptly killed about 60 clones in short order...but i made a diy aerocloner/sprayer/misty-doo thingamabob and 9 days later....it's a girl!! other than the clones i have read your entire 2 weeks thread and followed it. so everything else is great.i am just running out of my food and wanna replace it with yours or something even easier if possible.


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 6, 2008)

i used rapid rooters at first and i use perlite since i couldnt get flytocel but i still use the floc in the bottom just like you. now when i transplant on monday i will put the rooted clones fromhere into here with just the perlite to support them. i think this will work. i just wann make sure i can still have mobile plants....these are my mums, all 6 of em' in a 2x4 tray.
here's a side shot of my clones ...big and healthy!!
neway the rest of my pics are in my signature feel free to look. thanks for doing what you do.kiss-ass


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 7, 2008)

Sounds great! Nice work.


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## LostInSpace... (Aug 7, 2008)

Hi Al I got a quick question about your thermostat, I just bought the same one from Jaycar for my new clone box and I was wondering could you post a picture of how you wired it with the unit open? Also does it need to be inside the box? Thanks


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 7, 2008)

LostInSpace... said:


> Hi Al I got a quick question about your thermostat, I just bought the same one from Jaycar for my new clone box and I was wondering could you post a picture of how you wired it with the unit open?


The instruction manual is pretty good. See pg 8.

The relay has 3 connection points, NO (normally open), COM (common) and NC (normally closed). The relay connects the COM point to either the NC or NO depending upon the relation of the ambient air temp to the present temp setpoint.

If you want to switch a cooling fan, cut the line (brown) wire in the fan's power lead. Strip the insulation on the two ends you now have. 



Connect them to the COM and NC points on the thermostat's junction block. 

You can also install the thermostat on an extension cord or power strip. This makes it a lot easier to replace a fan connected to the thermostat later on. You then need only unplug the old fan from the extension cord or power strip and plug in the new one. Also allows you to switch more than one device if you have installed the thermostat in the lead of a power strip. Don't put more than a 5 amp load through the relay contacts.



> Also does it need to be inside the box?


Yes, the thermistor (temperature sensing element) is fitted inside the thermostat's housing, so it will sense temp wherever the thermostat body is mounted. It won't sense temps inside your clonebox while mounted outside of it- *unless* you modify the thermostat. 

Bear in mind that the thermostat unit will work perfectly fine mounted inside your clonebox; *you do not need to do this mod* _unless_ you want the thermostat unit mounted on the outside of your clonebox. My clonebox has the entire unmodified thermostat mounted inside the clonebox. Only my bud dryer needed this remote thermistor mount modification, so I could adjust and monitor temperature without opening the dryer while it is running.

If you can use a soldering iron (25watt, no larger), you can remove the thermistor, fit an extension lead and mount the thermistor remotely at the point you would like to sense the air temp. 

*You can destroy the thermostat you stuff this up, so unless you are competent with hand tools and a soldering iron, stop here!* 

*Keep in mind that this modification will void the unit's warranty, whether you do it successfully or not!*

Click any image for a larger size.

 

1. Remove the battery door and the unit's snap-on front cover per the instruction manual.



2. With a small flat bladed screwdriver, prise out the 4 snap-in tabs holding the display module to the relay circuit board. Only two tabs shown here.



3. Flip the display module over and to the left, using care not to wiggle the 5 conductor ribbon cable around too much- you don't want to break the ribbon cable nor the soldered connections. 



4. Remove these 4 screws which hold the display module circuit board to the plastic housing with a #1 Phillips screwdriver.



5. Lift the circuit board out of the housing. The LCD unit may stick to the circuit board when you lift it out or it may stay with the housing. If it sticks to the circuit board and must be put back in the housing, handle it by its edges to avoid fingerprinting the display, pull it free and drop it and its zebra strip back into its position in the housing, with the zebra strip rubber connector toward the top of the housing. 



6. Flip the display circuit board over and locate the blue thermistor on the upper right corner of the front of the display circuit board. 

7. Desolder the thermistor from the circuit board. Do this *quickly*- heat both the soldered connections at the same time and pull the thermistor free with fine-point needle nose pliers, while the solder is liquefied. *

WARNING!**
*

*Do not heat the soldered connections for more than about 5 seconds at a time. Applying excessive heat or heating for too long will peel the copper traces off the circuit board and destroy the unit. *
*Do not pull on the thermistor's leads unless the solder has liquefied. You will pull up the fine copper traces on the front side of the display circuit board and destroy the unit. *
8. Use #20-22ga (small, thin), 2-conductor wire to create an extension lead for the themistor. This can be up to several metres long if you need it to be so. 



9. Strip and tin the ends of the 2-conductor lead and solder them on to the copper lands where the thermistor was fitted. Solder the wires on to the circuit board from its back (component) side.

10. Solder the thermistor's two leads to the far end of the extension leads. Cover the connections to the thermistor with individual pieces of thin heat-shrinkable tubing. Do not put heat shrink tube over the blue body of the thermistor, only on the leads.

11. Route the extension lead out of the opening in the thermostat's housing where the junction block for the relay is located. 

12. Reassemble the display module by fitting its circuit board back into the housing and reinstalling the 4 small screws. Make sure the rubber buttons are working and not pinched in the housing before reinstalling the 4 screws.

13. Snap the 4 tabs of the reassembled display module back into the relay circuit board. 

14. Install batteries and test. 

If you have accidentally solder-bridged the extension's connections together, have not made good soldered connections or worst, have damaged the copper traces on the circuit board, the unit simply will not work. Verify that there are no solder bridges on the circuit board nor on the end of the extension lead where you fitted the thermistor. Assure you have not damaged the copper traces. 

If the display circuit board has not been fitted properly back into its housing, the rubber zebra strip connector may not make contact between the circuit board's gold contacts and the glass LCD unit, causing the LCD to be erratic or inoperative. 

Assuming all has gone well, you can now mount the thermostat body to any surface and put the thermistor at the location you would like to monitor.


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## LostInSpace... (Aug 7, 2008)

Thanks heaps for that mate, exactly what I needed to know. Give yourself a pat on the back.


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 7, 2008)

thank god you grow pot instead of workin for osama


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 7, 2008)

da fuck makes you think I AIN'T workin' for Osama? This asswipe at the UN reckons I am!


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 7, 2008)

I swear...there's just no damn hope for the world is there? fuckin commies


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 7, 2008)

Worst of it is that it's the capitalists who are really fucking it all up- and face it, *I* would have to be capitalist _numero uno_... it sure isn't nationalisation and price controls keeping my lights on these days. Personally, I blame the booze pushers. Oh, and King George. If King Bullshit had smoked more dope and snorted less coke with his grog, I don't think the poor Americans would be in the shit they are now. Cripes, if this is how the capitalists act, bring on the commos!


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 7, 2008)

i wondered what comments my commie reference would illicit from you. i hear you though...if i didn't have the op my family would be in the shit right now. but us yanks have pulled together slightly and brought down our demand for fuel lately...too little too late probably but it's a suprise to me that we could pull together for that much.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 7, 2008)

I wouldn't attribute to good intentions and pulling together what can be more easily explained by absurdly manipulated pricing (futures trading should be regulated like casinos) and a market that does have a top tolerable price. If fuel prices dropped by half tomorrow, fuel use would double, straight away. 

Case in point; Aussies have paid more than $US5.00/US gallon ($AU1.40/L) for petrol for quite some time and it's been as high as $US6.10/gallon ($AU1.70/L) recently. On the other hand, LPG is only 61c/litre ($US2.19/gal) and there's a $2000 govt rebate scheme to get ppl to convert their cars- so I did. My fuel costs per km were cut in half, bang. SO, what's the first thing I did? Stopped planning my trips as carefully and almost immediately added about 30% more kms per week.


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 7, 2008)

good point,all of it. bring on the jetsons and lets quit screwin around


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## BigBudBalls (Aug 7, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> da fuck makes you think I AIN'T workin' for Osama? This asswipe at the UN reckons I am!


LOL and the falafel I had for lunch makes me a terrorist too, huh?
And my Persian rug?
and , oh yeah! buying gas and oil!

(I gotta go to Cuba/Gitmo and turn my self in. But getting a Cubano sandwich first!)

(just playing on your post)


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## CALIGIRL (Aug 7, 2008)

got another question for you al,
Im using flora nova and was told its very strong and to stick with half strength from what the directions say. Right now im doing 800ppm and the plants looks good, but how do i know how much more i can add, without hitting nute burn?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 7, 2008)

CG, you're right, knowing where to stop can be tricky. There's a bell-curve to this- not enough, just right and dead.

The trick with nutes is to use enough to get plants without deficiencies but not so much as to produce nute burns. Once you pass the peak of your bell curve, more nutrients will cause a reduction in growth.

If you like, you can grow a few plants at the same time that you give nutes of differing strengths to, perhaps 200ppm between each sample, and see for yourself which produces burns or deficiencies, etc. Bear in mind that before doing such testing, all other conds in the op have to be spot on so you are sure that when you see some symptom in the plants, you can be sure it is caused by the difference in nute strength as opposed to something like excessive air temp, for example.

800ppm does sound a bit low, though. I run my tanks at 1400.


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## stickyicky77 (Aug 7, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> LOL and the falafel I had for lunch makes me a terrorist too, huh?
> And my Persian rug?
> and , oh yeah! buying gas and oil!
> 
> ...


If you saw the movie Harold and Kumar go to guantanamo bay,it wouldn't be a Cuban sandwich that you would be eating lol...


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## stickyicky77 (Aug 7, 2008)

Welcome back AL.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 7, 2008)

Thanks, sticky. 

While I'm thinking of it, I should probably comment about the relative importance of the things you provide to the plant. Nutes are really a rather small part of the deal. Their job is to present the nutes the plant needs in sufficient quantity and in proper ratio to one another. In example, flowering nutes have a high ratio of P to N & K. 

Presuming all the macro and micro nutes are available to the plants, nutrient from Joe's is as good as Jim's. Nutes from larger makers are more likely to be of consistent quality due to their need to maintain a reputation and the fact that they make up very large batches at a time, reducing variability between each jug. On the other hand, I've seen 'house brand' nutes, mixed up in the back room of Ye Locale Hydroe Shoppe, grow very fine plants- and for a lot less dough than big name nutes.

Of the things you should get right in your grow op, the list is topped by assuring mechanical reliability of electrics and watering systems- failures can be catastrophic. Safety has to be job #1, you don't need advice from the fire department on problems in your grow op. Next, powerful, high-intensity lighting suited to the size of the area and tight temp control, ideally to to 25C, +/- 1C. Pathogen control is a biggie; H2O2 applied correctly in the nutes prevents any root probs and a sulfur 'burner' both stops existing and future outbreaks of powdery mildew, common in indoor grows. Root probs and powdery mildew are big yield cutters. _*Then*_ I'd consider nutes. 

90% of running a succesful op is simply keeping stuff from going wrong!


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## KidCreole (Aug 8, 2008)

ok so first off let me start by saying that "he is as a god"... ok now that thats outta my system, i need a little advice please. Ive only got one girl as this is my first grow and I really didnt wanna mess up too many plants so i just have one. anyway, shes about three weeks into flower and shes startin to show me how much she loves daddy and produce "major poundage!" lol (shout out to w33d b4r0n) my problem is...spidermites. now, ive already started her on a nicotiene tea diet being sprayed down twice a week right now and i let it sit for about 30 mins then i hose her off. am i doing more harm than good? will she taste like a cigarette? I just want my lil three foot bagseed sativa plant to show something for all the people ive bothered on this site. she doesent look any worse for wear, but shes tinted brown and smells like american spirit tobacco! also,do those fingers look normal to you? somebody throw my newbie ass a lifeline!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 8, 2008)

KidCreole said:


> ok so first off let me start by saying that "he is as a god"...


You know, I really wish people wouldn't do that. I *do* cringe when people call me a 'god' etc. My ego is pretty ok- and I'm an atheist to boot. It would suck pretty hard to not be able to believe I exist.  



> ok now that thats outta my system,


and out of mine, too... 



> "major poundage!" lol (shout out to w33d b4r0n)


I'm pretty sure Stoney's somewhere nearby. 



> my problem is...spidermites.


arrgh. The _*heartbreak*_ of spider mites. And yours have been pretty busy. 



> now, ive already started her on a nicotiene tea diet being sprayed down twice a week right now and i let it sit for about 30 mins then i hose her off. am i doing more harm than good? will she taste like a cigarette?


Probably won't taste like a cig unless you're burning your tabac before making the nicfit tea. Nicotine does work as in insecticide in proper quantity, but it doesn't look like it's working for you. I might add some insecticidal soap (or a few drops of plain old dish soap) as a wetting agent and allow it to dry on the plants instead of removing it. 

Spider mites are complete bastards. They can become resistant to most insecticides, especially with sub-lethal dosages. You may well have just given your mites a pretty heavy fag habit. Watch out for mites nicking your smokes. 

You have to TOTALLY clean, vacuum & sterilise the grow area (and areas in the house on the path to it- mites don't respect doorways much) and bomb it and the plants *stupid* with something from the heavy artillery department. Mites got in form outside- somehow. Treat or destroy infested plants near the entry to the house. Azaleas in particular are mite hotels. They really deserve death anyway... because they're fucking *azaleas!* 

Look for "Avid," "Dead Red" or any other miticide product containing 'abamectin' aka 'avamectin.' Clean/vac first then spray, spray, spray, EVERYTHING- room, plants, general vicinity to the grow room entry- every day for 3 consecutive days. You want to make sure you get all the toughies who sit around snorting Raid & Black Flag while you're not looking.  Abamectin is a short-acting insecticide, though there is a 14 day withholding (no harvest) period after application.

I don't like your chances, sorry... that plant is really badly infested. In future, keep an eye out on the lower leaves first for the characteristic leaf damage caused by mites. When only a leaf or two are showing damage, you may have a chance of getting the upper hand. 

Before starting your next grow, clean, vac & blast the area with miticide. Keep in mind that unless you get ALL of them (and their eggs), the ones that remain will be resistant to the miticide you're using.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 8, 2008)

Did I mention to get rid of the vac bag immediately after vacuuming the grow room? 

I didn't? 

What an idiot. 

Get rid of the vac bag immediately after vacuuming. Remove it from the vacuum cleaner OUTDOORS, bag and bin it.


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## reefcouple (Aug 8, 2008)

i'm on board... thanks AL


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## DR. VonDankenstine (Aug 8, 2008)

how are u my friend? hope things are well with ya.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 8, 2008)

reefcouple said:


> i'm on board... thanks AL


no wucking furries. 



DR. VonDankenstine said:


> how are u my friend? hope things are well with ya.


All's as normal as it's ever gonna get around here, thanks for asking.


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## BigBudBalls (Aug 8, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> arrgh. The _*heartbreak*_ of spider mites. And yours have been pretty busy.
> 
> Spider mites are complete bastards. They can become resistant to most insecticides, especially with sub-lethal dosages. You may well have just given your mites a pretty heavy fag habit. Watch out for mites nicking your smokes. .


Hey Al (or should I say 'Potacus', the greek god of dubies), I read somewhere that a high dose of CO2, 5000ppm I think it was, for 15-20 minutes can kill off bugs. Probably won't kill eggs and larvae. Just thinking its near organic, no nasty poisons, and no lingering oils or such. (and its dry, no bud rot)

Any comments on it?


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## reefcouple (Aug 8, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> Hey Al (or should I say 'Potacus', the greek god of dubies), I read somewhere that a high dose of CO2, 5000ppm I think it was, for 15-20 minutes can kill off bugs. Probably won't kill eggs and larvae. Just thinking its near organic, no nasty poisons, and no lingering oils or such. (and its dry, no bud rot)
> 
> Any comments on it?


i've heard that on a few occasions as well.. good question.... i've heard it like this, close the door and open the co2 wide open, get it to around 5000 for about 2-5 minutes


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 8, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> I read somewhere that a high dose of CO2, 5000ppm I think it was, for 15-20 minutes can kill off bugs.


Sure, fumigating with CO2 is a great way to kill the bastards. It's kinda exxy as you have to have a tank & regulator handy, but it'll sure work. 

It'll kill you too if you're not sensible about opening up the doors & windows in rest of the house while blasting the grow.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 8, 2008)

reefcouple said:


> i've heard that on a few occasions as well.. good question.... i've heard it like this, close the door and open the co2 wide open, get it to around 5000 for about 2-5 minutes


I'd hold it at about 30,000ppm for an hour or two. People can still breathe in 30,000 without a respirator for exposures under 15 mins. Expect the mites to have their little masks with them, assholes.


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## BigBudBalls (Aug 8, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I'd hold it at about 30,000ppm for an hour or two. People can still breathe in 30,000 without a respirator for exposures under 15 mins. Expect the mites to have their little masks with them, assholes.



My meter only goes to 5000ppm (I think) But its not 30K, thats for sure.
Guess I cold to a little measuring/timing to guestimate whats 30K. But I think a good blast should fill up the room.

I don't have any pests but the dang fungus gnats. The fly paper and no pest strips seem to keep it down quite well.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 8, 2008)

Yep, 30,000ppm is *way* beyond anything you should _normally_ have to measure. Yes, do it by the maths, but it's not really necessary to exactly hit my suggested concentration figure. Just gas the fuckers _*good*_ and hold it at the high level for around an hour. Your gnats don't stand a chance and the plants will just love it. 

I use yellow sticky card traps to deal with gnats. Traps enough adults that they don't get the chance to turn my rootballs into 5-star gnat hotels. 

You'll never be totally rid of the little bastards; they're everywhere on earth and are attracted by moisture and light. Kill this mob and their mates will show up later on. It's just one of those things in a grow that will require periodic treatment in most cases. Fortunately, gnats are a lot less aggro than spider mites. Things really have to be let go for a long time for gnats to do any damage.


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## KidCreole (Aug 8, 2008)

seriously? damn, i wanted to see this one thru till the end... u think holding on will only let me down? or is there a chance i can fight it out? and by the way, if you dont believe you dont exist, then are we talking to you ar one of stonie's split personlaities?lol anyway thanx for the input, ill keep sprayin her down. they got here from a dumbass friend giving me a totally destroyed plant that was their comvention before i knew what spidermites were...


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 8, 2008)

yeah, keep after them with the nicotea (double the strength or buy some commercial nicotine insecticide), add a wetting agent, leave it on the plants. Hopefully you'll be able to slow the bastards down a bit. Mites prefer low humidity. Coincidentally, so do big heavy buds which can be susceptible to grey mould/bud rot (botyritis) in late flowering. Bud mould is more probable at >70-75%RH. 

You might raise humidity if it's below about 40% to slow down the mites a bit. Could hang a bath towel so it dips in a bucket of water and put it in front of a fan.


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## Stoney McDoper (Aug 8, 2008)

KidCreole said:


> by the way, if you dont believe you dont exist, then are we talking to you ar one of stonie's split personlaities?lol


yes that is true. I tot Al everythign he noes- but not evrything **I*** no!!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 8, 2008)

Stoney, remember, you're the one who suggested small calibre firearms to deal with gnats. No offence, but I take what you say with a pound of rock salt, most times.


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## Stoney McDoper (Aug 8, 2008)

yah well Mr Smart Guy u cant tell me it dont work ay!

u just got to use a lot of bullits. Little ones like a 22 work dam good but u hit mor natts with a shotgun.

like my daddy always told me, never pound witha big rench wen u can use a small wun.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 8, 2008)

I guess that'd help a lot with ventilation, Stoney...


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 8, 2008)

Hey Al, great to see you back. I just noticed you came back, cause Im not on as often as I used to. Hey Al, what do you think of Hempy Buckets, and SOGing in Hempys?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 8, 2008)

Hempy evangelists swear they don't rot roots, but they do keep roots submerged without added aeration, a recipe for root rot. 

If you need a simple system that can can run unattended or with low maintenance, I prefer wick systems. 







Image from SimplyHydro.

Same can be accomplished with two nested, common 88 cent plastic 9 litre buckets, a brick to space them and a few 150mm pieces of 16mm nylon rope as wicks. Air pump is optional, I'm a bit iffy on whether added oxygen would be lost in the motion through the wick. Perlite is a good medium for wick systems. They benefit from H2O2 50% grade @ 1ml/L in the nutes every 3-4 days, keeps them funk free. 

You could raise 3-4 SoG pruned plants in each bucket based wick system.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 8, 2008)

How much to you think it would take to build a table. ? And the roots are openly exposed to light in the tray? Do you have an overhead pic of one of your tables?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 8, 2008)

oh, and... when first starting a new wick system, soak the media for 24h before putting plants in it. The media's got to be wet to start the wicking action.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 8, 2008)

I do intend on running tables just like your op. Money is my biggest problem. The wick is the same thing, minus the pump right?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 8, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> How much to you think it would take to build a table. ? And the roots are openly exposed to light in the tray? Do you have an overhead pic of one of your tables?


I have tried and failed _*dismally*_ to DIY some flood trays, thinking it would save some dough. I've built frames of 2x4 timbers with a plywood floor and lined it with plastic, put plumbing fittings in one corner and blocked it up so water drained to the corner. Problem is the plastic tends to pinhole with use, moving pots around and whatnot. Leaks and wood construction don't mix well, neither do leaks and non-resilient floors/coverings. 

I use commercially available vacuformed plastic trays, 900mm x 900mm. They are on stands made from ~25mm square aluminium (never steel) tubing, fitted together with Qubelok plastic connectors. 



The tubing & Qubeloks are available at Ye Olde Gargantuan Hardewarre Shoppe. Trays come from most any hydro supplier. The commercially made plastic tray is simply the best tool for the job, but even good ones eventually crack. Keep a tube of silicone sealant handy. 

edit: Most trays are sold without holes for fill & drain fittings drilled. I USED to use a hole saw and a drill to make these openings. I now use a homemade hot knife (a 60W soldering iron with the tip pounded flat) to melt the holes, clean them up with a bit of sandpaper on a dowel rod. Prevents future cracking around the holes.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 8, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> I do intend on running tables just like your op. Money is my biggest problem. The wick is the same thing, minus the pump right?


Pretty much. You do have to reckon that pumps are pretty cheap, I think I pay about $11 for 400L Chinese cheapos. 

You still need pH & ppm metering for a wick system. 

Downside to wicks is that you're not moving as much oxygenated nute soln through the roots and speed/productivity suffers. Upside is they're noobie proof- impossible to overwater.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 8, 2008)

I will eventually be doing floods, and you will be like the first to see them. So I'm clear on everything but one. The roots stay exposed to lights? Im sorry, I just don't see them in the pic neither, lol.


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## ceestyle (Aug 8, 2008)

kudos for truth on cooltubes and tap water.

I'm working out a modular wick system. The beauty of wicking - as I see it - is that the soil is never so wet as to choke out the air content. As you mentioned, top-watering your wicked pots to start gets the juices flowing, so to speak. My houseplants and tomatoes are running on prototypes and love the shit ...



> I DO lose patience with _willfully_ dumb people who insist that wives' tales or outright misinformation trump replicatable science.


I could not agree more.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 8, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> I will eventually be doing floods, and you will be like the first to see them. So I'm clear on everything but one. The roots stay exposed to lights? Im sorry, I just don't see them in the pic neither, lol.


The plants are in pots and so are the roots. Roots need to be shielded from light.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 8, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> The plants are in pots and so are the roots. Roots need to be shielded from light.


When you get a chance can you show a pic of the pots? You put your net pots in another protective pot? Sorry for sounding so lost, but I am.


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 8, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> When you get a chance can you show a pic of the pots? You put your net pots in another protective pot? Sorry for sounding so lost, but I am.


al dont use net pots...he uses rockwool cubes in flytocel on top of rw floc

something like this


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 8, 2008)

minus the rapid rooters


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 8, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> When you get a chance can you show a pic of the pots? You put your net pots in another protective pot? Sorry for sounding so lost, but I am.


no net pots, never have said I use them. Just plants in pots in a flood tray.


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## reefcouple (Aug 8, 2008)

Al, i just read many many pages, i like your approach (keeping it simple), it was nice to read.... even if you did write a "recipe" i'm sure it would sell


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## Rodlan (Aug 9, 2008)

Hey Al B. If i want to recreate your op in a more hobbyist style for my personal use. I'm going to have 2 micro setups with fluorescents, 1-2 mothers in one cabinet/drawer and another drawer for rooting my clones. My flowering room will be a closet with 4 plants flowering 1 due every 2 weeks under a 400w hps. My question is: Since I am only growing 4 plants at a time and they will have more space than your op, and ventilation should not be a problem, should i still prune the bottom third of the plant for the center cola buds or would i be able to leave the bottom 1/3 and lollipop it for a better yield?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 9, 2008)

reefcouple said:


> Al, i just read many many pages, i like your approach (keeping it simple), it was nice to read.... even if you did write a "recipe" i'm sure it would sell


Thanks. 



Rodlan said:


> My question is: Since I am only growing 4 plants at a time and they will have more space than your op, and ventilation should not be a problem, should i still prune the bottom third of the plant for the center cola buds or would i be able to leave the bottom 1/3 and lollipop it for a better yield?


Cannabis plants don't produce evenly across all stems & branches. The lower on the plant, the less productive. Manicuring the little lower stuff is a pain, but the worst of it is that if you grow branchy plants, you are using valuable lighted space to produce bumfluff buds- that you _*could*_ be using for more budstalks, which will make big, hard, dense nugs. 

So.. grow more lollipopped plants, not fewer branchy ones. This is the whole point of SoG. 

You can fit as many as 4 SoG plants per sq ft if you prune them properly, everything off the bottom 1/3. A 400 can raise as many as 32 SoG plants in 8sf. I only do 2.6 plants per sf (46 in 16.2sf) with my 1000s, though.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 9, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> no net pots, never have said I use them. Just plants in pots in a flood tray.


Regular soil type pots? Dope, lol, I assumed they were in there. I'm going to go back to the old thread and read up. If you don't mention there, what is flytocel. Sorry for being so stupid. I do well with what I do. I just don't know the rest.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 9, 2008)

So I'm guessing Flytocel is the medium. Looks at lot like perlite. I am using perlite now in those hempys and grodan in my bubbletanks. So I guess I got it.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 9, 2008)

The medium is Fytocell, a resin foam material. Yep, in plain old pots just as you'd use for soil. Fytocell is more absorbent than perlite, lighter weight and has more air content (40%). Since the Fytocell crumbs will fall out of the drain holes, I pack about 25-50mm of rockwool floc in the bottom of each pot. With such a high air content, Fytocell floats. The RW floc, when wetted, weights down the pots so they don't float.


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## hybrid (Aug 9, 2008)

what is the sure fire way to know the difference between nute burn and temp burn?

Ive read that they tend to present themselves similiarly in the fact that the leaves actually burn with either.

Besides the obvious temp control, how would someone know?

CO2...........is it for the birds? I think Im in the same boat with you on water with people ROing and all kinds of extra work for nothing........

What about CO2? This stuff is costly to setup and use and adds one more reason for people to eyeball people comming in and filling large canisters.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 9, 2008)

Nute burn and overtemp damage look very different. 







Nute burn appears as dying or crispy tissue on leaf tips and margins, all across the plant. 







Heat damage will tend to appear on upper parts of the plant first and will appear all across leaf surfaces, but mainly between veins on leaves, not just necrotic tips & margins. 

CO2 *IS* bloody expensive to do right and it's not worth doing *unless* done right. However, it's not unusual to see a 20-30% increase in productivity in the same time span as opposed to non-CO2 enriched grows.


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## dertmagert (Aug 9, 2008)

well.. i went to the hydro shop to get my cool tube, but he didnt have any in stock. so he told me to wait about a week.. and its gonna cost $129.99 
(not bad, especially if its gonna knock down those high temps)

so i went online lookin for some and i came across this DIY plan:
DIY: Best Cool Tube
looks like it would work pretty good.. the best part is i already found one of those Bake A Rounds right down the street at a thrift store for $10

so what do i do? wait and pay $100 more, or just go with the DIY plan? i mean its just a 430w hps im coolin... will the efficiency difference be noticable? i like to build things anyway, i think i wanna have a go at this.. 

so i was doing a little more browsing around here at RIU, reading threads and what not, and ive seen a couple threads that were active today talking about temps and co2... whereas if you properly enrich your grow room with co2, you can maintain temps upwards to 90 degrees... 
**this makes a light go off in my head
if i install the cool tube, and have the room maintaining a temp of 85f (29c), and add co2, i wouldnt have to get the AC... Right?

im just exploring options here, so i can make the best decision. 


while i was at the hydro shop, i saw this:




 *Product Information* 
Co2 Boost is an all natural and cost effective Co2 enrichment. No more dangerous propane tanks, no more heavy Co2 tanks to fill. All you have to do is plug in you Co2 Boost and the all natural ingredients provides your plants with Co2 for a full 60 to 90 days!
$118.00


Does anybody know whats inside that bucket? its not just a big Yeast and sugar bomb is it? 

haha
how much co2 does that thing produce? and would it be sufficient for a small room? (16/20 plants)?

or should i get something like this:





* CO2 INJECTION SYSTEM with Timer *

*$159.99 *

Hydrofarm delivers a CO2 injection system complete and ready-to-use in your garden. Includes pre-set regulator, pre-drilled dispersion hose, .5 to 4.5 CFM flow meter, solenoid and 15-minute/ 24-hour timer. Unit attaches easily to your CO2 tank. Mount the dispersal hose to the ceiling or disperse by directing the outlet hose behind an oscillating fan. Fully automated and safe-to-use. Extra dispersal hosing and high rate flow meter. 




---------------
oh.. i also wanted to share this video i came across.. they have alot of information about different types of hydro setups.. maybe it will help lighten your workload at the Al B Faqt just a little 
YouTube - Ready-Set-Grow Vol 2 Part 1 Of 7


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 9, 2008)

> so what do i do? wait and pay $100 more, or just go with the DIY plan? i mean its just a 430w hps im coolin... will the efficiency difference be noticable? i like to build things anyway, i think i wanna have a go at this..


The DIY cooltube will work fine. The main difference is the Bake-A-Round is about 100mm dia instead of 150mm. A 1000HPS bottle will fit in a Bake-A-Round but there's only about 10mm clear between the centre bulge of the 1000's envelope and the inner dia of the Bake-A-Round. I can't see any problem with using the DIY flavour with a 400 or 600 but if there's a 1000 in your future, get the commercially made cooltube.




> so i was doing a little more browsing around here at RIU, reading threads and what not, and ive seen a couple threads that were active today talking about temps and co2... whereas if you properly enrich your grow room with co2, you can maintain temps upwards to 90 degrees...
> 
> **this makes a light go off in my head
> if i install the cool tube, and have the room maintaining a temp of 85f (29c), and add co2, i wouldnt have to get the AC... Right?


29C is the magic number. That's the limit where d9-THC starts to decompose into non-psychoactives like CBD & CBN.


> Does anybody know whats inside that bucket? its not just a big Yeast and sugar bomb is it?


Either that or vinegar and baking soda. 



> how much co2 does that thing produce? and would it be sufficient for a small room? (16/20 plants)


That's the thing about bodgy chemical reaction CO2 generators like this- you don't know how much CO2 it's making. 



> *CO2 INJECTION SYSTEM with Timer *
> 
> *$159.99 *
> 
> Hydrofarm delivers a CO2 injection system complete and ready-to-use in your garden. Includes pre-set regulator, pre-drilled dispersion hose, .5 to 4.5 CFM flow meter, solenoid and 15-minute/ 24-hour timer.


Better, at least you have some clue as to how much CO2 you are introducing into the room. However, this device doesn't meter the CO2 based upon a measurement of the concentration already in the room. It also doesn't control ventilation blowers. With 'dumb' CO2 applicators like this, your exhaust fans can be running at the same time this thing is dispensing CO2, pumping your preciou$ ga$ out of the op soon as it's out of the cylinder. Still a lot of guessing and fiddling, which will be even more variable seasonally. In summer, your exhaust blower will run more often than in winter, throwing off whatever calculations and timer settings you've worked out. 

Look for CO2 applicator systems that have metering, measurement and exhaust blower control built in. They sense the level of CO2 and apply as much as is needed, automatically. More exxy of course, but it's the only way to maintain the CO2 concentration accurately and make best use of the ga$ at any time of year.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 9, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> The medium is Fytocell, a resin foam material. Yep, in plain old pots just as you'd use for soil. Fytocell is more absorbent than perlite, lighter weight and has more air content (40%). Since the Fytocell crumbs will fall out of the drain holes, I pack about 25-50mm of rockwool floc in the bottom of each pot. With such a high air content, Fytocell floats. The RW floc, when wetted, weights down the pots so they don't float.


Cool. What size tray would you recommend for a 400HPS, which is all I have now. 3x3 or 4x4. How many plants to either?


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 9, 2008)

Hey Al, I got a great question. I started a thread about it, but nothing yet. Do you know how to make a DIY Light Mover. (4' track)


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 9, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Cool. What size tray would you recommend for a 400HPS, which is all I have now. 3x3 or 4x4. How many plants to either?


You can really pack in SoG pruned plants. A 400 is good for about 8 sq ft and you can do as many as 4 SoG plants per sf, so about 32 lollipops max under a 400. I don't pack them in quite as tightly, about 2.6 plants per sf in my flowering area, 23 per 900mm x 900mm tray. 

The light pattern from horizontal tube light fixtures is rectangular, about 2.5' x 3.2' is ideal for a 400. 



Kaosisglobal said:


> Hey Al, I got a great question. I started a thread about it, but nothing yet. Do you know how to make a DIY Light Mover. (4' track)


I'm not a fan of light movers. They even out growth if the area you're lighting is too large for your lamp, but so does moving plants around a couple times a week. 

With light movers, you have a new figure to comtemplate; lux-hours. When the light is over one end of the grow, it's not putting any light on the other. Consequently, with a stationary lamp, you know how many lux (lumens per m^2) you're putting down, but with a light mover, you have to consider how much time the lamp spends over any given part of the grow. Linear light movers also do not evenly distribute their lux-hours. Plants in the middle of the traverse get more lux-hours than the plants on the ends of the traverse. Rotary light movers don't have this fault but require a circular growing space. 

Light movers are mechanically rather complex. There's a few ways to accomplish it. Rotary movers have to have an electrical connection to the lamp/s that copes with the constant rotation of the mover, usually requiring what are known as 'slipper ring' connections. Linear movers usually use a motor and a long chain to pull a mounting point back and forth along a track, necessitating traverse limit switches on either end. 

Even if I wanted one, I don't think I'd DIY a light mover- and I am really quite mechanically and electrically inclined. I reckon you'd spend as much on DIY as buying a reliable mover.


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## KidCreole (Aug 9, 2008)

so sorry that i have to interrupt such an educated path the thread was taking, but it's the new guy again. So, you told me that i could combat my spdrmte infestation by the nicc tea, but i didnt exactly understand what you were saying when you started talking about temp. Is it normal for the buds to be so small four weeks in? I know the spidermites are doing a hell of a job on her but i think she should be a bit bigger. Im using cfl and i know you dont care for them much but i didnt know you when i started my grow... anyway i think that im using 27 watt 6500 cfl, four of them. my lights too bright?
anything i can do organically and cheaply (pref homemade)to boost her as i will be taking a growing hiatus to learn more and set up for a more serious grow next time around. any tips you picked up as a broke ass beginner that you'd care to pass? 

much obliged my man.


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## stickyicky77 (Aug 9, 2008)

Hey Al, i notice that my buds had some bolting. I think it was because i kept my room at an average temp of 85-86 F during lights on and my fans and exhaust on 24/7. I had read that if you are using CO2 it was better to keep your room at those temps to use the CO2 more efficiently. I have the regulator with a CO2-2 Atmospheric controller. I think i am going to set the controller for 80F and the t-stat for low speed at 75F. I have the relative humidity set at 55%. Could you check out the pics in my journal and let me know if you think that will make a difference ? Another question i have is that my WW clones turned Hermie and seeded this first batch. Will the seeds turn out all hermies or do i have a 50-50 shot of some fem seeds? The smoke still turned out primo as far as the high and flavor. The buds just are as sticky and the odor isn't as strong as usual. Is that due to the crop getting pollinated ?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 9, 2008)

KidCreole said:


> i didnt exactly understand what you were saying when you started talking about temp.


What part about temp?



> Is it normal for the buds to be so small four weeks in? I know the spidermites are doing a hell of a job on her but i think she should be a bit bigger. Im using cfl and i know you dont care for them much but i didnt know you when i started my grow...


If you have mites and are attempting to flower with CFLs, yeah, you're right on schedule. 



> anyway i think that im using 27 watt 6500 cfl, four of them. *my lights too bright?*


umm, you _*ARE *_kidding- right? 

The sooner you rid yourself of the CFLs and replace them with a small HPS, the sooner you'll get some decent buds.



> anything i can do organically and cheaply (pref homemade)to boost her as i will be taking a growing hiatus to learn more and set up for a more serious grow next time around. any tips you picked up as a broke ass beginner that you'd care to pass?


yeah, go order a 400HPS kit from HTG for $119. Even cheaper than buying and converting a 250 HPS security light from a hdwe store for use as a grow light.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 9, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> Hey Al, i notice that my buds had some bolting. I think it was because i kept my room at an average temp of 85-86 F during lights on


I think so too. 



> I had read that if you are using CO2 it was better to keep your room at those temps to use the CO2 more efficiently.


Yep, 29C is the usual recommendation for a CO2 enriched grow.



> I have the regulator with a CO2-2 Atmospheric controller. I think i am going to set the controller for 80F and the t-stat for low speed at 75F. I have the relative humidity set at 55%.


ok



> Could you check out the pics in my journal and let me know if you think that will make a difference ?


You're using Aerogardens?

OK, here's what you do. Get rid of the Aerogardens, buy a 400HPS kit from HTG for $119 and stop messing with CO2 until you do. CO2 with a fluoro grow is like running your moped on nitromethane.



> Another question i have is that my WW clones turned Hermie and seeded this first batch. Will the seeds turn out all hermies or do i have a 50-50 shot of some fem seeds?


Not sure, that's from the breeding department. I sprout beans, grow mums and clone off them forever, not too much sex going on in my op. I believe you'll get an assortment of (mostly) unviable seeds, herm & F. Check with potroast for a 2nd opin. 



> The smoke still turned out primo as far as the high and flavor. The buds just are as sticky and the odor isn't as strong as usual. Is that due to the crop getting pollinated ?


Yep, once the plants are pollinated, they figure their job is done and they stop making resin & start working on maturing the seeds.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 9, 2008)

oh, and- work on your ventilation so that the room temp comes down to the intake air temp. If you have 25C air to draw in, if you have effective ventilation, your op will stay pretty close to 25C. A cooltube on the 400 you're going to buy will work wonders.


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## stickyicky77 (Aug 9, 2008)

No AL, the Aerogardens are only for vegging my mother plants that i take my clones off of. If you look a little closer in the last pics you will see my 3x3 flood and drain tray with a 400W HPS with a air cooled hood and E- ballast, a CO2 system with the Atmospheric controller. I also have central A/C and the exhaust is a 6" with a carbon filter. They are in 2 separate grow tents. The AG's are just used to vegg my mothers and the second one with the flood and drain and HPS for flowering. On the last page will can see the buds flowering.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 9, 2008)

Ah, ok! That's actually about the only reasonable use I can think of for an Aerogarden, but there's sure cheaper ways to get the job done! 







ouch, high temps.. looking pretty cooked. I think your 85F figure is low, these look like they've had a trip through the Mojave in August. If you have central aircon and an aircooled hood, how the heck did this happen? Does your hood source and dump air outside the room's airmass?

I also don't think the LED indicator lights on the CO2 controller caused your hermaphrodism. Not generally enough light to do that in a couple of indicator LEDs, but fair enough for taping them over. Peeking in the grow during lights off (while providing enough light for you to see) is a usual cause of hermaphrodism. You're not a peeker, are you?


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## stickyicky77 (Aug 9, 2008)

Yes the exhaust just dumps out of the top of the grow tent. The central a/c stays set at constant 74-70 F 24/7. The lights on temp in the tent stays at 85 F and i have a good digital thermometer that records high and low temps and RH. The RH stays at 55 % RH and that's what i have the Atmospheric controller set at. The room is located over a unconditioned space. We have out door ambient temps of 98-100 F during the day and 85-90 F at night in the climate that i am in. The room that the tent is in is fairly well insulated but some heat does rise from the space below. The room that the tent is in stays 76F during the day and 72-70 F at night. I think that i may have gotten my hood a little too close to the top of the plants and had the Atmospheric controller set at 86 F to bring on the exhaust on in high speed of 225 CFM's and a attic fan t-stat set at 80F to run in low. I think i am going to change the settings to 80 F to bring on the exhaust in high speed and 75 F for low speed on the next grow. Could some of that be wind burn from my osculating fans on 24/7 ? I think the WW mother was a hermi , so i chopped them all and made some decent bubble out of them.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 10, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> Yes the exhaust just dumps out of the top of the grow tent. The central a/c stays set at constant 74-70 F 24/7. The lights on temp in the tent stays at 85 F


Ok, you have (max) 76F air to draw in, but the room temps are not coming down there. Need to work on ventilation throughflow efficiency. 

I'm wondering about this air cooled hood. Is the body of it getting hot and transferring heat into the room airmass? If so, there's not enough air being drawn through the hood.


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## Rodlan (Aug 10, 2008)

Hey Al I had another question about flooding my growing medium.

I am going to be using small Grodan rockwool growcubes. Should i flood them once a day or more? I am not exactly familiar growing with this medium.


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## stickyicky77 (Aug 10, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Ok, you have (max) 76F air to draw in, but the room temps are not coming down there. Need to work on ventilation throughflow efficiency.
> 
> I'm wondering about this air cooled hood. Is the body of it getting hot and transferring heat into the room airmass? If so, there's not enough air being drawn through the hood.


I just double checked the settings on my controller and the attic fan t-stat. My stoned ass actually had the attic fan t-stat set at 84F to run in low speed and and the atmospheric controller set at 86F to run in high. The RH is at 55% and the CO2 is set to go on every 120 minutes for 15 minutes. No wonder they were bolting. I guess i must have been smoking on some bubble that day when i was adjusting the attic fan t-stat...lol.. I make some pretty good bubble hash out of my scrap cuttings from my mother plants. I don't let any leaf or cuttings go to waste. Its all about the tricromes. The 6" centrifugal duct fan draws 225 CFM in high speed through the hood. You can see the grow tent walls suck in a bit when it kicks into high speed buy-the-homebox.com - universal indoor grow box kit. I am sure there is plenty air flow through the hood. I think the problem was that it was running in low speed most of the time. The light didn't feel that hot though. I put the back of my hand under the light at the canopy. I noticed that the fan would run in low speed most of the time and would cycle in high mostly towards the end of the day when it was the hottest out side, which appeared normal. My wife has bad habit of closing the door to that room and the A/C can only pull the return air out of the room from under the gap at the bottom of the door when it was closed. I am sure that did not help the temps any. I think that setting the attic fan to run in low speed at 75 F instead of 84 F and the main controller set to 80 F to run in high should make a big difference. I guess i will find out next time. I just thought it was odd that the buds bolted and i am using CO2 and the room temps stayed between 84-86F. I thought that the CO2 would allow you to run those kind of temps without that happening.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 10, 2008)

> I thought that the CO2 would allow you to run those kind of temps without that happening.


It should have, if you didn't exceed 29C. However, I wonder if as hot as it was, the exhaust blowers were triggering and blowing it out. Possible?


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## gvega187 (Aug 10, 2008)

al, I was wondering what brand of rock wool granulate you use. 

Also, in your continuous grow up, how much would you need to fill 20 8" pots? Do you also use clay pellets? If so, at what ratio?


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## stickyicky77 (Aug 10, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> It should have, if you didn't exceed 29C. However, I wonder if as hot as it was, the exhaust blowers were triggering and blowing it out. Possible?


The CO2-2 Atmospheric controller Home Page automatically cycles off the exhaust when it is injecting the CO2 and then cycles it back on when the temps get too hot. It was set for only 15 minutes every 120 minutes. It's first cycle starts shotly after the lights first come on when it is cool. I bet you are right. I wounder if the rest of the cycles got the full 15 minutes before the exhaust cycled on.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 10, 2008)

gvega187 said:


> al, I was wondering what brand of rock wool granulate you use.


Depends on my supplier. Sometimes I get Grodan, sometimes I get stuff from CSR Bradford, depends on what the best deal at the time for my supplier was. I like the CSR stuff better; it is made locally as opposed to the Danish Grodan, which arrives packed into a nearly solid block as a result of long-distance shipping with other bales of the stuff on top of it. I don't have to crumble the CSR stuff up before stuffing it in pots. Sounds trivial, but it's a fair bit of work when I'm stuffing 23 pots at a time.



> Also, in your continuous grow up, how much would you need to fill 20 8" pots?


An 8" pot works out to about 4L volume, or pretty close to it. My pots are not quite 8" dia, they're 175mm (6.9") on the top and 130mm on the bottom, about 3L. A 20kg bale is about 125-130L. 

I don't pack pots only with RW floc anymore. I put about 25-50mm of solidly packed RW floc in the bottom of each pot and fill the rest of the way with Fytocell. Keeps the Fytocell from escaping through the pot drain holes and when wetted, the floc weights down the pots to keep the 40% air Fytocell from floating. Fytocell comes in 100L bags and I think I use about 1/2-2/3 of a bag for each 23 pots. 



> Do you also use clay pellets? If so, at what ratio?


No, I don't use pellets. I once did but found they were a problem come disposal time due to weight. Cleaning them for re-use is such a prick of a job, both to do and do right, that I stopped using pellets about 9 years ago. Switched to RW floc, then when Fytocell came on the market, switched to pots stuffed mostly with that as RW floc holds TOO much water and can't be flooded frequently. When I was using pellets, I also used an aerocloner so that I had plants with no media on them to nest directly in the pellets.



stickyicky77 said:


> The CO2-2 Atmospheric controller Home Page automatically cycles off the exhaust when it is injecting the CO2 and then cycles it back on when the temps get too hot. It was set for only 15 minutes every 120 minutes. It's first cycle starts shotly after the lights first come on when it is cool. I bet you are right. I wounder if the rest of the cycles got the full 15 minutes before the exhaust cycled on.


I see this on their page:



> The CO2-2 can be converted to PPM level accuracy with the addition of the PPM-1c CO2 sensor.


Does yours have this sensor? If not, the controller is doing its level best to put CO2 in the room per your settings but if the gas gets blown out, the controller simply doesn't know to put any more in as its only instruction is the timer settings.


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## stickyicky77 (Aug 10, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Depends on my supplier. Sometimes I get Grodan, sometimes I get stuff from CSR Bradford, depends on what the best deal at the time for my supplier was. I like the CSR stuff better; it is made locally as opposed to the Danish Grodan, which arrives packed into a nearly solid block as a result of long-distance shipping with other bales of the stuff on top of it. I don't have to crumble the CSR stuff up before stuffing it in pots. Sounds trivial, but it's a fair bit of work when I'm stuffing 23 pots at a time.
> 
> An 8" pot works out to about 4L volume, or pretty close to it. My pots are not quite 8" dia, they're 175mm (6.9") on the top and 130mm on the bottom, about 3L. A 20kg bale is about 125-130L.
> 
> ...


The sensor is next on my list for my room.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 10, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> The sensor is next on my list for my room.


Yep, I think that might be the thing to have. Without it, you can't really be confident that the gas concentration is what you expect it to be. 

In the meantime, I think I'd be setting all the thermostats to hold the temps as low as possible with current conditions. If you can get it to 25C (77F), great!


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## gvega187 (Aug 10, 2008)

about how many times a day would you feed this composition of 2" bottom wool and the rest fytocell. I am used to pebbles and net pots. 

Cant find any fytocell locally so I will have to order online. Cant even find any on ebay....did this stuff just come out?


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## DR. VonDankenstine (Aug 10, 2008)

ALL-

It's hard even for experienced grower to get the temp/venting/enrichment cycles down--a lot of growers want to use the juice but don't want to waste it by venting to waste(might as well throw your frog skins out the window) I have seen it done many different way--some better than mine and others worse---I only exhaust my room when the juice and lights are off-I run my exhaust all night long-I never vent during the on hours. My juice comes on 1 hour after lights on and 1 hour before lights out. My C.A.P. ppm3 keeps the juice at 1500ppm's---my room temp never climbs above 83 but I have an port A/C set to 85 ready to kick on if shit hits the fan or things do climb or if my passive light fans go down. I love the juice and when all things are going correctly it will def give you gains. Hope any of this babble helps.

Al- I finally picked up some spice of life-sweettooth 1.1---holy shit what a bitch to source that out. Going to germ-them this week--time to get cracking.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 10, 2008)

gvega187 said:


> about how many times a day would you feed this composition of 2" bottom wool and the rest fytocell.


3x/day (or more) for larger, vigorously growing plants (wk3 of flowering & after), 2x/day for younger plants. 



> Cant find any fytocell locally so I will have to order online. Cant even find any on ebay....did this stuff just come out?


It's relatively new, been in the shops for about 18 mos. Made in Australia, easily available here. 

If in the USA:



> *USA *
> 
> New Age Gardening have been appointed the US Distributor for Fytocell. Their contact details are as follows:
> [email protected], Ph (562) 789 0345, Fax (562) 789 8479


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 11, 2008)

al i need you...i got a thread on the hydro page i am goin stupid...


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 11, 2008)

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/98339-transplanting-aerocloner-into-perlite.html sorry here's the thread!kiss-ass


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## gvega187 (Aug 11, 2008)

holy sh!T, its like....I asked questions and ....got answers. this is unheard of. What are we on a forum or something? 

I also have a few cloning quetions related to your thread. 

1. You say you soak the rockwool cubes with some % h2o2. I use starter plugs in a standard humidome tray. What concentration of h2o2 might you suggest for this? 

2. Do you perfer rockwool over the coir starter plugs and if so why? I have noticed that my starter plugs are fairly unpopular among growers who know what they are doing. 

kiss-ass
Al-B ME


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 11, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/98339-transplanting-aerocloner-into-perlite.html sorry here's the thread!



no worries. The main reason I started this thread is that there's just no way I can keep up with every thread on the board. 

If you have a question for me, don't count on me just happening across your query, put it here, like you just did. I'll get to it.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 11, 2008)

gvega187 said:


> holy sh!T, its like....I asked questions and ....got answers. this is unheard of. What are we on a forum or something?


I know it's a bit confusing. Hang in there. 



> I also have a few cloning quetions related to your thread.


ok


> 1. You say you soak the rockwool cubes with some % h2o2. I use starter plugs in a standard humidome tray. What concentration of h2o2 might you suggest for this?
> 
> 2. Do you perfer rockwool over the coir starter plugs and if so why? I have noticed that my starter plugs are fairly unpopular among growers who know what they are doing.


yep, I use 50% grade H2O2 @1ml/L in cube pre-soak solutions, which are pH adjusted to about 5.0. This very low pH reacts with the limestone dust which remains after rockwool manufacturing. This 5.0 pre-soak will keep the pH in the cube more stable later on, instead of it bumping up each day between waterings. The pre-soak solution should be removed from the cubes as fully as possible before plugging clones in. I use a salad spinner to drain the cubes. Subsequent watering once the stems are plugged in should be done with a solution of 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L, but pH adjusted to about 5.8. 

Rockwool cubes can be tricky for new users. RW can hold far too much water if you let it. Cubes must not be allowed to be saturated. A dry 40mm RW cube weighs 5g. When properly just damp, about 20-25g. Heavier than that is too wet; water will have displaced air that is needed to form root nodes. Stable clonebox temp at about 30C as well as a heat mat really speed things along. I get consistent 100% strikes in about 7 days in RW cubes by tightly controlling conditions. See: https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html

I don't like organic materials of any sort (coir, peat pots, etc) in recirculating hydro systems. Organic matter can support mould and may decompose with exposure to H2O2. Bits of the stuff may wind up in the nutes and can foul pumps.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 12, 2008)

Hey Al, I entered the grow journal contest. I am not expecting the gold prize. I just want to gain my knowledge through opinions and questions. When you have time, check out my thread. Do you know of a DIY light mover? Check out my veg box, at 2x4x4, I was thinking of running my 400HPS with a mover in there. Until I build another bloom box, I may stay with small girls and bloom in there. What do you think?


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## Hidden Dragon (Aug 12, 2008)

Al, what is your opinion about constantly cloning your own female clones as opposed to keeping mothers? Does it really eventually degrade the original genetics? To what degree if any? Thanks.


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## BigBudBalls (Aug 12, 2008)

Hey Al, I got a bumb response in the forums, so here goes.

I'm looking to make a love den just for seeds. A one time round. I don't wanna dump a ton of electricity, so I have a 70W HPS and a pair of 42W (150W equiv) CFLs. I only want to use either (exclusive 'OR', you're an EE, can get that part  ) the 70W or the pair of CFLs. They are small plants, 10CM give or take 3cm. 3 plants a *tiny* female, a female and a male (every guy's dream, two ladies and one guy!)

Your pick?

I'm leaning towards the CFLs for better coverage.

oops, thanks!


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## stucklikechuck (Aug 12, 2008)

hi al,
for people using rockwool slabs, will flushing with clearex help stabalize ph by removing the limestone residue? or will the residue always be there and ph needs to be adjusted frequently? thx!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 12, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Check out my veg box, at 2x4x4, I was thinking of running my 400HPS with a mover in there.


 You don't need a light mover in a space that small. 

Light movers are not a good thing, anyway. It's better to have a stationary lamp that suits the size of the space you're trying to light rather than trying to spread light out over an area that is really too large for that particular lamp. 

With movers, you have a new figure to contemplate; lux-hours (lumens per sq metre per hour). When a mover has the lamp over one end of the grow, it's not over the other. You have to derate the amount of light the plants are getting owing to the mover having the light elsewhere for a certain amount of time. 

Linear light movers also do not distribute light evenly. Plants in the middle of the traverse get more light than plants on the ends. Rotary light movers don't have this problem, but they do need 'slipper ring' connections to conduct electricity to the lamp from the ballast, which can be troublesome.

Also, light movers are mechanically complex. I'm pretty handy with electronics and welding/metalwork and even I would not attempt to DIY one.



Hidden Dragon said:


> Al, what is your opinion about constantly cloning your own female clones as opposed to keeping mothers? Does it really eventually degrade the original genetics? To what degree if any? Thanks.


 You've kinda asked two questions there. 

It's not smart to try to get away with not keeping mothers by taking cuttings from plants you later intend to flower or are presently flowering. Cuttings taken from plants in flower are notoriously slow to set root. If your only source of cuttings is a plant which has gone in to flower, should you happen to have trouble getting clones to strike (which will take you about 7-14 days to work out) and you decide need more slips, your source plants now have been in flower for a 1-2 weeks, making your problem even worse. Keeping mums is a no-brainer, just requires a little (and I do mean a 'little') space put aside for the purpose with their own 18-24h/day light.

If your question relates to replacing old mother plants with clones taken from them, no problem. I've been doing that since 2002 with Sweet Tooth #4. Taking a cutting from a plant does not alter the DNA. Clones, as the term suggests, are DNA identical to the plant they came from. All of their characters, from colour to potency, will be the same as the mother plant. You can keep replacing mums with clones taken from them for many years, at least 6 years, that I can directly attest to.



BigBudBalls said:


> Hey Al, I got a bum response in the forums,


 No! Say it ain't so! That's never happened before. 



> I'm looking to make a love den just for seeds. A one time round. I don't wanna dump a ton of electricity, so I have a 70W HPS and a pair of 42W (150W equiv) CFLs.


 I'd use the CFLs over the seedlings. The 70W HPS is better used maintaining a (single) mother plant. Seedlings and clones don't need the intensity of HPS, even a small one like a 70.



stucklikechuck said:


> hi al,
> for people using rockwool slabs, will flushing with clearex help stabalize ph by removing the limestone residue? or will the residue always be there and ph needs to be adjusted frequently? thx!


I've searched the web for Clearex's active ingredient/s. No luck. The maker's website uses a lot of pseudoscientific words intended to convince you that this stuff does something that water won't. Get this 'sciency' gobbledygook:



> Leaching with tap or deionized water can lead to *hyptonic* conditions which cause cell *lycis* with outflow of essential electrolytes and nutrients. This causes tissue damage leading to serious pathogen disorders such as bacterial and fungal infections.


*WTF?*

I have a _*very special*_ hatred for jokers who attempt to lever people's lack of in-depth scientific/botanical knowledge to sell jugs of stuff with a high water content. 

If you can't find out what's in any given jug of stuff, it's a 'magic sauce.' Magic sauces are mainly water but contain high percentages of what retailers call 'profit.' Unfortunately, the 'profit' in magic sauces seems to stop with the seller and not flow on to the buyer... 

Botanicare do give a sorta-good explanation on how to flush a plant, though (unnecessary parts removed):



> Pour one to two quarts of [plain water, pH adjusted to 5.8] per plant site [...] Dump waste run-off [...] Check EC or PPM in reservoir. Run system for 15 &#8211;60 minutes or until EC or PPM stops rising. Dump reservoir.


Unless you've overfertilised a plant (and we KNOW you won't do that, right?), there's no need to leach a plant. 

The amount of limestone dust that's in RW will cause pH to bump up only slightly (perhaps 0.1-0.2/day, tops) and is therefore largely insignificant. I _*do*_ pre-soak RW cubes with a 5.0 solution to deal with the limestone in RW cubes as this seems to aid rooting speed, but by no means have I proven that to myself or anyone else. It's not generally practical to pre-soak slabs or RW floc as it is hard to drain them fully of any low-pH pre-soak. WIth those materials, you just have to cope with the pH wobble, but it shouldn't be a big deal. Adding tapwater to your tank will swing the pH up much more than will RW. 

This much I can tell you; unless Clearex has a very low pH (very acid), it won't react with the limestone (calcium carbonate) dust which remains in rockwool after manufacturing. If Clearex is acidic enough to do anything at all to the limestone dust, it will be especially bad for plants. 

One of these days, I'm going to stop complaining about magic sauce sellers and start 'Barnum's Magic Hydroponic Sauces, Inc' and just get fat as hell selling jugs of coloured water to anyone I can fool.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 12, 2008)

FYI, a good test of magic saucery is to see if there's an MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) available for it. The MSDS will give you good information about the chemical content of the sauce. If there's no MSDS available, the material is likely no more hazardous/efficacious than water.


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## ceestyle (Aug 12, 2008)

> Leaching with tap or deionized water can lead to *hyptonic* conditions which cause cell *lycis* with outflow of essential electrolytes and nutrients. This causes tissue damage leading to serious pathogen disorders such as bacterial and fungal infections.


Although they can't spell, apparently what they're trying to say is that having super-low concentrations of ions outside the cell walls (hypertonicity) can create a great enough osmotic pressure across the wall to rupture (lyse) it. This would leave it more vulnerable to bacterial or fungal infections.

Not sure how exactly their product would avoid that - or that it does, just sayin. 

None of that is really relevant if you don't believe in preharvest flushing anyway.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 12, 2008)

Thanks for the insight. 



> Not sure how exactly their product would avoid that - or that it does, just sayin.


Fair enough. 

Do excuse my scepticism, but magic sauce makers have been known to invent problems which they claim their sauces will solve. 

However the mechanism works, the question then is begged, if their product removes ionic compounds (aka nute salts) from the medium and it is the absence of the same which may cause damage, exactly why would one do such a thing? If this is a notable, common, truly harmful and independently verified effect for those who do flush plants, why not flush with a weak nutrient solution to assure one never has a super-low concentration of ionic compounds?


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## CALIGIRL (Aug 12, 2008)

Hey ABF, My plants are still growing! after 4 weeks of flower there all 4ft+ now.
I was thinking would it be possible that they are growing so tall because i water them alot? Right now they are in hydroton rocks and i water 8x a day but they seem like it, or atleast not mind it.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 12, 2008)

CALIGIRL said:


> Hey ABF, My plants are still growing! after 4 weeks of flower there all 4ft+ now.
> I was thinking would it be possible that they are growing so tall because i water them alot? Right now they are in hydroton rocks and i water 8x a day but they seem like it, or atleast not mind it.


Well, a couple things are happening here. Your temps were high early on, triggering some stretchiness, plus they were in their first 4wks of flowering, while veg habit is still tapering off. 

If you've sorted the temp probs, they ought to slow their vertical height gain. In wk4 of flowering, the plants will be switched almost fully to flowering mode and out of veg mode. Vert height gains should be all but stopped this week or soon into next for you. 

Pellets are great because they have lots of airspace and allow you to flood often. Watering often in a medium which can tolerate it won't contribute to stretch. All that's happening there is you are bathing the roots with freshly oxygenated nute solution more often, which makes sure that anything the plant needs, it's getting. The growth of the plant will be maximised if it has a ready supply of oxygenated nutes, but the habit is mainly controlled by factors such as room temp and photoperiod. 

Starving the plant for water or nutes won't alter the growth habit. It'll just give you a wilty or nute deficient plant. Getting temps right will sort it out.


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## CALIGIRL (Aug 12, 2008)

ok thanks abf =)


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## stucklikechuck (Aug 12, 2008)

thanks for all your help al!!!! alas i have another question: how many times should i flood and drain per day and how long should i flood for? i am using 6 inch rockwool slabs at the moment and currently feeding 3x a day and flooding for 15 mnutes.


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## ceestyle (Aug 12, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Thanks for the insight.
> 
> Fair enough.
> 
> ...


As you know from experience - and this is certainly not limited to gardening - your skepticism is certainly warranted. Even if what they professed as logic does in fact hold some scientific merit, the fact that they used the terms without defining them or explaining them to "the layman" means they were using them for effect. Like when you watch a movie and someone whips out "newtonian physics" in an effort to wow the audience into thinking they're smart.

My assumption would be that the approach you alluded to is what an ideally designed flushing solution would do: create a lower concentration outside the cell wall without overdoing it. Presumably, you could do this with a well-calibrated nutrient solution, even stepping down gradually to clean water. I imagine that you could also put some snake oil in there that selectively sucks out the nute components you'd like to get rid of. Who knows. 

In any case, I don't hear people screaming about bacterial infections in week 9 of flower, so it doesn't seem to be a predominant problem. On the other hand, if cell repair hoards resources that should go into fatter nuggies, that is a problem.

As with any product, I think about what I would do if I were to market a product that actually worked: *demonstrate that it works*. I know it's not favorable just yet to post a side-by-side on the plants we love to grow, but give me *something*. I will not take someone else's word for it unless they can SHOW ME that it works, and side-by-side. None of this "I switched to XXX super nova killer buzz bloom and the buds totally fattened up a week later" shit that I see all too often. You can count me a skeptic too ...


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 12, 2008)

stucklikechuck said:


> how many times should i flood and drain per day and how long should i flood for? i am using 6 inch rockwool slabs at the moment and currently feeding 3x a day and flooding for 15 mnutes.


I haven't run an op in RW slabs, rather pots stuffed fully with RW for quite a while, but I'd actually think that 3x/d * 15m might be a bit on the high side. You're the best judge, are the slabs remaining saturated up to the next watering or are they losing a significant amount of water weight by flood time? If you have mature, vigorously growing SoG sized plants, they'll suck up quite a lot, perhaps a litre or more each per day. More can be lost to direct evaporation from the slab. If the slabs are exposed to direct strong light and a lot of air motion, evaporation loss will increase. 

RW is fibrous and has a strong wicking action up to the saturation point. I can't see the need to flood the material for long stretches. I bet the slab is saturated if only flooded to 1/4 of its height for a minute or so. Observe the top surface of the material when flooding. You'll be able to see water wicked to the upper surface. Stop your pump at that amount of time. The material is then saturated and won't pick up any more. 

If the roots are encased in rockwool, there's no benefit to flooding longer or more often than it takes to saturate the material. If RW is still saturated from the last flooding, adding more water won't displace the 'old' water. The plant has to take it out or it has to evaporate. In RW, you shouldn't give more water until until a significant amount of water from the last flood is used by the plant or evaporated. 

Pellets, on the other hand, have comparatively huge air gaps between them and don't retain as much water, most drains out when the pump shuts off. There's a lot more direct exposure to freshly oxygenated nute soln with each flood in pellets for this reason.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 12, 2008)

ceestyle said:


> As with any product, I think about what I would do if I were to market a product that actually worked: *demonstrate that it works*. I know it's not favorable just yet to post a side-by-side on the plants we love to grow, but give me *something*. I will not take someone else's word for it unless they can SHOW ME that it works, and side-by-side.


And fucking _*HOW.*_ 

The side by side thing is generally difficult for the end-user to do, but if done right with a significant number of test samples and accurately controlled conds, really tells the tale.



> None of this "I switched to XXX super nova killer buzz bloom and the buds totally fattened up a week later" shit that I see all too often. You can count me a skeptic too ...


See, this is where a lot of growers fall down. They simply get confused as to causes and effects and a number are not familiar with scientific method for controlling variables. Performance differences between serial batches where changes like a new magic sauce have been made can owe to many other variables. Few home grow ops have dead-steady conditions 24/7/365. Only side-by-side comparisons can be trusted.


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## gvega187 (Aug 12, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 3x/day (or more) for larger, vigorously growing plants (wk3 of flowering & after), 2x/day for younger plants.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


okay so I have decided that this fytocell stuff is impossible for me to obtain in the US. 

are there any other media i could use that would not saturate for as long? (note i hate pebbles 2 & I am trying to duplicate your flood-drain op)


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 12, 2008)

Yeah, try perlite. Soak it well before plugging plants in it. Plug the drain holes in your pots with a layer of tightly packed RW floc. Should be able to handle 3x/day watering, perhaps more with more mature plants, post wk4.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 12, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You don't need a light mover in a space that small.
> 
> Light movers are not a good thing, anyway. It's better to have a stationary lamp that suits the size of the space you're trying to light rather than trying to spread light out over an area that is really too large for that particular lamp.
> 
> ...


I have a shitty reflector, how would you recommend mounting it? I would like to get it in, I know it will add to my growth. So you think it will get corner to corner, stationary? I also wanted to build another box square 3x3 4x4 for that light and then a 600HPS when I could buy it, just for budding and keeping the first box only for veg. If the 400 is in bud I have the floros and when I get a 600W then the 400 is permenant in the Veg box. Cause I do see the growth difference using floros. I will take a pic of that light and put it in my journal. I am hittin the sack soon, so tomorrow for the pic. What do you think is my best next investment aside from nutes I need? (Cool Tube?)


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 12, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> I have a shitty reflector, how would you recommend mounting it?


First, remove the shit. 



> I would like to get it in, I know it will add to my growth.


Glad you're sure, what sort of reflector is it? Size? Pics are good.



> So you think it will get corner to corner, stationary?


Depends on the light power & reflector size/shape. A reasonably large batwing ref will cover it with a 400 and you can make your own batwing to suit pretty easily. 




> I also wanted to build another box square 3x3 4x4 for that light and then a 600HPS when I could buy it, just for budding and keeping the first box only for veg. If the 400 is in bud I have the floros and when I get a 600W then the 400 is permenant in the Veg box.


You do need separate veg & flower areas for SoG, however, the floorspace reqs for vegging mums for SoG are much less than by other method which rely on vegging a plant post the clones setting root. 



> Cause I do see the growth difference using floros.


Well, you might. 



> I will take a pic of that light and put it in my journal. I am hittin the sack soon, so tomorrow for the pic.


ok



> What do you think is my best next investment aside from nutes I need? (Cool Tube?)


Yep, cooltube, a 150mm axial blower and some 150mm aluminium range hood duct.


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## potroast (Aug 13, 2008)

stucklikechuck said:


> thanks for all your help al!!!! alas i have another question: how many times should i flood and drain per day and how long should i flood for? i am using 6 inch rockwool slabs at the moment and currently feeding 3x a day and flooding for 15 mnutes.



I use 8-inch slabs in a tray made for them. I flood those trays from the bottom, to about 2/3 up the slabs. Once a day is enough, twice would be OK, and even every other day would work, those things hold a lot and stay wet. I cover my slabs with panda plastic though.

What I've found is that the slabs tend to build up nutrient levels within, so regular flushing is good, and I use Clearex. The bottle says the ingredients are a couple of sugars, so when I saw a Botanicare booth at a show 5 years ago I asked them if it was just sugar water. Of course they said no, that it contained many other ingredients, they mentioned the osmotic pressure, and also that it unlocked any nutrient compounds that are unavailable to the plant. Anyway, I still use the stuff, I figured that the sugars dissolved the salts.


HTH


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 13, 2008)

potroast said:


> What I've found is that the slabs tend to build up nutrient levels within, so regular flushing is good, and I use Clearex.


Funny you should mention Clearex, I was just talking about the stuff a page or so back, if you missed the luvfest. 



> The bottle says the ingredients are a couple of sugars, so when I saw a Botanicare booth at a show 5 years ago I asked them if it was just sugar water. Of course they said no, that it contained many other ingredients, they mentioned the osmotic pressure, and also that it unlocked any nutrient compounds that are unavailable to the plant. Anyway, I still use the stuff, I figured that the sugars dissolved the salts.


If the stuff has sugars in it, that's plenty of reason, certainly for me, to not put it in a hydro system at all, on the grounds that they're food for pathogens, which I don't want in my system and am trying actively to kill with H2O2. Beyond that, sugars are not solvents for anything, much less for residual nutrient salts. Far as I can tell, the stuff can't do anything that flushing with a weak solution of nutes couldn't, if one were seeking to prevent damage from ionic compunds imbalance across the root barrier. 

I think ceestyle has it spot on when he says that the conditions that this osmotic pressure imbalance are supposed to cause, bacterial and fungal infections due to damaged cell walls, don't seem common in week 9 amongst those growers who are flushing for a week on plain water. Given the sugar content of Clearex, it seems likely that it actually could _*contribute*_ to the conditions it claims to prevent. 

potster, I know what you're saying about nute salts accumulating *on *rockwool. It has a strong wicking action which carries more water to the location where it has been voided from, either the rootzone or the top surface of the media. When it does so, it carries along more nute salts. In the rootzone, nutes are picked up by the roots. On the medium's surface, salts are left behind and accumulate when the water evaporates. This effect is highly localised, only to the very top surface layer of the medium. Salts don't generally accumulate deep _*in*_ a mass of the medium, rather only on the top surface, where nothing is taking them away. 

One way to avoid the crust of nute salts is to never allow the upper surface of the media to be wetted. This may not be practical with RW slabs due to their size and more linearly fibrous nature than RW floc, which doesn't wick as strongly and directly as does slab/cube RW. When I was using pots packed with RW floc only, I packed my pots deeply and watered _only_ from the bottom so the top surface layer, about the top inch, never was wet. This meant there was no nute solution ever exposed directly to air on the top surface of the medium; _voilà,_ no more nute salt crust. 

However, since switching to Fytocell, which must be saturated fully from top to bottom before use, the nute salt crust is back on my media tops. However, since Fytocell is stark snow white, the salts on the surface are less visible- and don't bother me as much.  The plants sure don't care. 

Mind you, I suspect they WOULD care if I top flushed a bunch of accumulated salts from the surface down into the rootzone and didn't manage to leach them fully from the rootzone. It'd be a massive dose of nutes- that very likely would induce a burn. SO, what do I do about it? *NOTHING!*  I just leave it be.


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## LostInSpace... (Aug 13, 2008)

> Stable clonebox temp at about 30C as well as a heat mat really speed things along. I get consistent 100% strikes in about 7 days in RW cubes by tightly controlling conditions.


Hey mate can you confirm the air temp and heat mat temps in your clonebox for me?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 13, 2008)

Confirm them?


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## LostInSpace... (Aug 13, 2008)

Yeah I thought I saw u write somewhere else air temps @ 26C, but now im confused.
I'm having trouble cloning so i'm gonna copy you  Got me thermostat hooked but not sure where to set it, got me heating pad and not sure where to set it. Any help appreciated...


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 13, 2008)

ah, the flowering area runs 25C +/- 1C or 24-26C. 

The clonebox air temp runs about 28-30C and my heat mat is fixed temp at 30C.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 13, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> First, remove the shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is a batwing, bout 131/2in. long. The HTG Supply 400W package. I've had it for a while now. When I have money, I do want to step up to a 600W. 

If you look at the pic good, the one side of the reflector broke off during my first move and gave me uneven light last run. So first things first if I use it with that reflector is the other side has to come off, so I can cast rectangular? 

Of course you recommend seperate ducting, and I would to. But for a step up at a time, Do you think it is ok to duct to the 6in. duct there now and leave the other end open to intake grow smell n heat?


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 13, 2008)

Another good question, what do you think of those floros? Do they have a home in any op? Or does it stop at hobbyist. When I notice the difference between that and my 400 and I know I need a 1000W, I see it doesn't match my needs. Though it may not be what I need, right now it is what I have.  

Thanks Al.


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## rbahadosingh (Aug 13, 2008)

hey al it'll be three weeks tomorrow in my sog and my plants dont seem to be getting any taller. their buds are just fattening up now. most of them are only a foot and a half tall. should i be worried? and could it just be strain related. im growing purple kush and grandaddy purple.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 13, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> If you look at the pic good, the one side of the reflector broke off during my first move and gave me uneven light last run. So first things first if I use it with that reflector is the other side has to come off, so I can cast rectangular?


Light from HPS lamps is emitted mainly perpendicularly to the lamp tube's axis, so we don't care too much about the condition of the end of your reflector. Even in this sad shape, it should cover a 2.5x3.2' area with no trouble. 



> Of course you recommend seperate ducting, and I would to. But for a step up at a time, Do you think it is ok to duct to the 6in. duct there now and leave the other end open to intake grow smell n heat?


No. I've said several times that cooltubes should have their own closed air path and own blower- and why... but I'll repeat myself one more time. 

If you use the cooltube's blower as the exhaust fan, you can not use a thermostat on it. It has to run all the time the lights are on regardless of the air temp in the room. You will have poor temp stability with a single blower.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 13, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Another good question, what do you think of those floros? Do they have a home in any op?


Fluoros are the ideal light for clones and seedlings. In a pinch, they can be used to raise mums to supply cuttings to a rather small op. 

I use a 400HPS over my mums because I need them to regrow enough material to supply 30 good, thick-stemmed cuts every 2 weeks.



rbahadosingh said:


> hey al it'll be three weeks tomorrow in my sog and my plants dont seem to be getting any taller. their buds are just fattening up now. most of them are only a foot and a half tall. should i be worried? and could it just be strain related. im growing purple kush and grandaddy purple.


I occasionally have a batch come up shorter than usual. I have yet to pin down exactly why this happens, but I can be confident that it's not strain related. It's more likely to be caused by some variation in the room air temps, condition of clones when they went in to flower (most likely) or perhaps some variation in nute pH. This is one problem that is really annoying me in my own op. I have got temps pinned to 25C +/- 1C now with the cooltubes and always give the same 1400ppm @ 5.8 nutes, so I'm a little puzzled. Other batches jump right up to about 600mm tall by wk3-4 with no appreciable changes in room conds. It's inconsistent and I'm knocking my head against the wall trying to isolate the cause. It may be related to tank pH. I may have shot the pH adjustment too low with the stunted batches. Don't know yet. 

I'm trying some mitigations like allowing the nutes to do all the pH correction (Canna nutes have pH buffers which will set my pH 7.1-8.0 tapwater to 5.8-5.9) instead of adding pHDown as well as adding some veg nutes to the watering solution I give to clones once they have got a good set of roots on them and which are next in line to go into the flowering area. That's an experiment in progress, I'll let you know what I know when I know it. 

When plants come up short like that, yes, yield suffers. They will deliver some hard nugs but not as much as when the plants grow a bit more vigorously early on. When things are going well, it's very obvious that the plants have truly caught on and they'll double in height by the end of wk 2 over the height at introduction to the flowering area. 

In any op, the plants shift their growth habit from veg to flower over the first 4 wks of flowering. The veg growth characters normally take 4 wks to totally taper off. The plants should keep gaining vert height until wk4, when they stop at about 1m tall and also stop trying to send out long branches. During the first 4 wks under 12/12, the plant starts building buds, really getting down to the task post wk4.


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## jivalst (Aug 13, 2008)

Hello Al,

As it is right now I have a 12x12 room with a center ilse and on each side have tables that I have built 2' off the floor. Each table is 4x12. I only have 1 4x6 tray as of now but after looking into your threads think i'm going with SoG. Over my tray is 1000w HPS in SunSystem covered reflector.

1. Would 1000hps lights work over 4x6 trays instead of 4x4?
2. Will I need more than 6-8 mothers to facilitate this expansion?
3. Would the mothers produce enough to clone off of under 160w's of T-12 Fluros?
4. I have purchased 4 strains(white widow max, G13 Haze, NL and Big Bud). Would I do best to stick with one? 
5. If I did rotate strains how many mothers would I need to make that work. 
Check out my Grow journal if like. Some of the pics might help

Thanks for all your help...


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 13, 2008)

jiv. I can't respond in full at the moment. Pics will help.


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## jivalst (Aug 13, 2008)

Oh shit that sux! What a moron...the post doesn't have the edit button. Is there an administrator I can talk to about it? I'll check it out...sorry guys


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## sparkafire (Aug 13, 2008)

Delete them off the account album.. and my avatar says HI! LOL


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## jivalst (Aug 13, 2008)

yeah sparky I'll do that.....FH


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 14, 2008)

jivalst said:


> 1. Would 1000hps lights work over 4x6 trays instead of 4x4?


My trays are not quite the 4'x'4' I thought they were when writing the first post of Get A Harvest Every 2 Weeks. I haven't had to use imperial measures in many years. I guessed on the tray dimensions- and guessed wrong. My trays are 900mm x 900mm or about 2.7' square. While we're on it, I guessed wrong on the pots too; they're not 8" dia, rather they are 175mm (6.9") dia and 130mm dia on their bottoms. 

4'x'6' is just a bit too large for a single 1000. I would put 2x 600 or 1000 HPS in cooltubes over your 4'x'6' tray.



> 2. Will I need more than 6-8 mothers to facilitate this expansion?


No, 6-8 mums should do fine for a 4'x6' op. 



> 3. Would the mothers produce enough to clone off of under 160w's of T-12 Fluros?


Not if you need cuttings every 2 weeks. Fluoros just don't veg mums fast enough. I use a 400 HPS on my mums. 



> 4. I have purchased 4 strains(white widow max, G13 Haze, NL and Big Bud). Would I do best to stick with one?


Height differences between most strains in this method are not usually too terribly large but you'll probably end up grouping plants from like strains to be able to keep the light equally close to as large a number of them as possible. You'll eventually decide that one of them works the best and find yourself growing mainly that strain. BB is a mainly indica hybrid that does very well in SoG ops. 



> 5. If I did rotate strains how many mothers would I need to make that work.


I'd keep no fewer than 2 copies of all strains. Replace one with a clone from that strain every 8 weeks or so to make usre you always have one healthy copy going at all times. 



> Check out my Grow journal if like. Some of the pics might help


Some pics will help, some won't. You know the ones I mean. Make them go away.


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## hydrogrower420 (Aug 14, 2008)

yo al b. i was wondering if i could set up a sog in my closet.can i section of my closet so 1 section for clones and mothers under a 400watt mh and 1 section for my sets of plants to get a harvest every two weeks. 
i was really high in my room and i think it woulndt be that hard to section off my closet.have you or anybody done this?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 14, 2008)

While I touched on it a few times in *Get a harvest every 2 weeks*, I haven't talked much about security in this thread- until now. 

You might be anonymous on this board but that doesn't mean you can't make bad information security moves. 

_*NEVER*_ post pics of how your beans were sent to you. Any stealth that your sender managed is totally defeated. You can bet LEO reads RIU, too. 

_*NEVER*_ order beans to be posted to the address where you intend to grow them. If the beans _were_ detected in shipping, LEO now knows you have beans at that address and may check in a few weeks down the track to see how they are growing for you. Use a once-off maildrop location where beans will never be grown, preferably not even a smoker at that addy. 

Everything you post on RIU gives away a certain amount of information. Once a post goes up, the genie is very nearly impossible to put back in the bottle. Be very careful about specifics you let slip. 

The ideal grow situation is when you live alone in a place you own instead of rent (think periodic property inspections), but that's a pretty rare arrangement. No-one but you should know about your op, but it's likely that you live with other people, who _*should*_ be fully aware of what you're doing- and should be on board. 

It says in my sig, "*don't even THINK about asking me how to hide your grow from your MOM*." The reason for this is that if your grow gets busted, everyone in the place is likely to be charged. The house may be seized, or if a rental, you will be evicted. All residents should have the ability to choose whether they want to take the risk. At the same time, you should take total responsibility for your grow and your housemate/s should have _plausible deniability_; they should be able to _reasonably_ say they didn't know what you were doing in your closet. If the other person/s must commonly have access to the grow space as a function of living in that dwelling, plausible deniability is lost. 

Grow partners are a bad thing in 99.99999999% of cases. Too many cooks really do spoil the broth. If you're going to run a grow, run it by yourself. Grow no more than you can manage and harvest by yourself. Make all decisions of how the op will be run, with ONLY you as President & Dictator for Life in your op. Have *no one who can make any claim to any portion of your harvest*- this is the point where LEO rubs his hands together gleefully because he knows that when grow partners squabble, he will be soon be getting another tipoff- and YOU become another drug war statistic.

*NEVER* steal electricity. Bypassing a power meter is one of the very quickest ways to go to jail. If the pwr co's billing dept notices your meter isn't reading, they send out a techo to replace it. When the techo notices the new meter isn't spinning but he still measures a current in the line, he knows exactly what's going on. He'll be back later with a supervisor and probably a detective, too. 

Your rubbish bin is not private. Don't put anything in it that can get a warrant issued for your house. Old media can go out in common rubbish, bagged up to look like the rest of your general rubbish, but make sure it's got no leaf or stem material in it. Deface or remove labels from nutrient jugs. Waste leaf material is best composted or buried in a garden patch. Great fertiliser for the veg patch. Composting totally destroys the evidence but may not be good for growers in freezing climes in winter. Snowbunnies need to find other disposal methods. 

Your neighbours DO watch you and your house. No 5-minute visitors, especially not late at night. You're best not having ppl visit you- visit them instead. If you're earning a living off your op and don't leave everyday to go to a job, have a cover story; you are a computer geek and work from home, you're disabled and can't work, whatever. 

Don't drive a flashy car. Drive something nerdy, ordinary and old but keep it in _*immaculate*_ mechanical condition. No lights out, no dodgy tyre treads, no busted muffler, NEVER a boomping stereo, no reasons for a cop to pull you over. Don't have anything distinctive on your car, no stickers, fancy wheels, nothing that makes your car stand out. 

If you're a big shoot-em-up party dawg, _*don't*_ run a grow op. Loud parties are excuse #1 for a cop to visit. If s/he suspects anyone's in danger (i.e. alcohol poisoning etc) in the house, he can enter without a warrant. 

Keep your buds _*far*_ away from drunks. Drunks get busted at the next roadside breath test with a bag of YOUR buds in pocket and YOUR number programmed in their phone under 'pot dealer.' Alcohol causes a certain kind of stooopid. Alcohol added to other drugs like valium/xanax or oxycontin causes an infinitely worse kind of stoopid that makes people want to open airplane doors at 30,000 feet... and never remember _*a bit*_ of it. You don't need much stooopid in your life. 

If you're smart and grow small, you will be swimming in buds for the rest of your days with never a legal scrape. Once you're a client of the legal system, they will keep you as one. With a record, you're fair game as a suspect in future drug activity and you will see cops regularly for the rest of your life. Don't get busted the first time. 

I won't say it's impossible for me to get busted, but I manage my risks very carefully and have contingencies in place if the worst happens. I've been at it more than 20 years and have never even come _close_ to any sort of drug related arrest, for growing or possession. It's not because I'm well-connected, lucky or even all that smart- I just plan ahead, enjoy my quiet life and fly low & slow, under the radar.


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## hydrogrower420 (Aug 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> While I touched on it a few times in *Get a harvest every 2 weeks*, I haven't talked much about security in this thread- until now.
> 
> You might be anonymous on this board but that doesn't mean you can't make bad information security moves.
> 
> ...


this is a good post 100% agree with you.luckly i dont fall into any catagory on that list of not things to do except for having a pic of some seeds and a wallet on this thread... and having to hide my grow room from my mommy,nah just kidding hahahaha.
i own my own house and im fully aware of how not to be a fucken retard with no streetsmarts..ive been around the block as they say.but i hope that wasnt a reply to my post.if it wasnt can someone help me out i need some pumps for my setup and i also need some parts for my cloning system anybody know a good website?


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## pppfemguy (Aug 14, 2008)

how goes it AL?? hope ur feelin better ne who i just have one simple question...how much in total would one of these 'get a harvest every 2 weeks' ops cost to set up??? very curious cuz every 2 weeks sounds a hell of alot better then every 2 months


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 14, 2008)

hydrogrower420 said:


> yo al b. i was wondering if i could set up a sog in my closet.can i section of my closet so 1 section for clones and mothers under a 400watt mh and 1 section for my sets of plants to get a harvest every two weeks.
> i was really high in my room and i think it woulndt be that hard to section off my closet.have you or anybody done this?


Ventilation is consideration #1 when planning a grow op. Closets are hard to work with because they're hard to ventilate. Leaving the door open a crack _*isn't*_ effective ventilation. Unless you can poke a hole in a ceiling and vent the waste grow air into it, closet grow air temps will be hard to control. A 400 watt HID can make enough heat to turn your walk-in into a sauna in minutes without effective ventilation. 

Without the ability to hold a grow to 25C, you're GOING to have heat related problems down the track. Freestanding wardrobes or grow tents located within a room are a lot easier to work with in terms of ventilation. Cooltubes are a major help but they still need to source and dump their air somewhere where that air can't be drawn right back into the grow. 

Once you sort out the ventilation issue, yes, it's a pretty simple matter to set up a clonebox with some fluoros and a heat mat, cordon off a small veg area in your space, can be just enough for 2 mother plants, and reserve the remainder of the area for flowering. If you don't need a lot of cuttings nor very often, you can veg mums with fluoros/CFLs, but small HPS (60, 100, 150, 250W) lights are now commonly available as accent or security lighting from many large hdwe & lighting supply houses. They'd be a better solution for a small op and will produce thicker stemmed mother plants for cuttings than will fluoros.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 14, 2008)

hydrogrower420 said:


> but i hope that wasnt a reply to my post.


Didn't have anything to do with you. I was responding to another post on the preceding page. You just got (un)lucky & posted while I was composing that long comment. Such is the nature of discussion forums.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 14, 2008)

pppfemguy said:


> how much in total would one of these 'get a harvest every 2 weeks' ops cost to set up???


Around $3000-4000 to duplicate my op to the letter with all new gear.


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## pppfemguy (Aug 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Around $3000-4000 to duplicate my op to the letter with all new gear.


wow........not to bad so far ive spent about 2500 on my op.............are 1000 watters harder to work with for that particular op?? and is it even possible to duplicate ur op?? hahaha


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## honkeytown (Aug 14, 2008)

hey Al...quick question for ya...I just set up some bubbleponics for my clones...is it really worthwhile?.....I have just been doin plain water cloning and it seems I cant get a real constant number of days when rooting...will the bubble cloner make a difference and make things a little more consistent? I was gonna make an aero cloner but I was worried about the pump going out at some point and losing my clones...I dunno...any advice? thx in advance


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## hydrogrower420 (Aug 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Ventilation is consideration #1 when planning a grow op. Closets are hard to work with because they're hard to ventilate. Leaving the door open a crack _*isn't*_ effective ventilation. Unless you can poke a hole in a ceiling and vent the waste grow air into it, closet grow air temps will be hard to control. A 400 watt HID can make enough heat to turn your walk-in into a sauna in minutes without effective ventilation.
> 
> Without the ability to hold a grow to 25C, you're GOING to have heat related problems down the track. Freestanding wardrobes or grow tents located within a room are a lot easier to work with in terms of ventilation. Cooltubes are a major help but they still need to source and dump their air somewhere where that air can't be drawn right back into the grow.
> 
> Once you sort out the ventilation issue, yes, it's a pretty simple matter to set up a clonebox with some fluoros and a heat mat, cordon off a small veg area in your space, can be just enough for 2 mother plants, and reserve the remainder of the area for flowering. If you don't need a lot of cuttings nor very often, you can veg mums with fluoros/CFLs, but small HPS (60, 100, 150, 250W) lights are now commonly available as accent or security lighting from many large hdwe & lighting supply houses. They'd be a better solution for a small op and will produce thicker stemmed mother plants for cuttings than will fluoros.


well it looks like i have to plan to get some ventalation going on thanks for the advice much apreciated.id rather cut holes in my closet doors then in the ceiling.any online stores or vent. setups that you recomend im trying not to spend too much money.i was planning to make a clone setup like this guys https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/64661-homemade-rubbermaid-ez-cloner-pics.html except a lot smaller.is this a good setup?i have a 250watt hps already i could use that for clones and mothers.i plan to have 4 mothers in 18gal bin dwc.and 4 diffrent dwc bins with the rotating plants.each bin will have 4 plants.i have measurments and pics of my closet of how im gonna section it off if it helps.my cloning setup will hold like 8-10 cuttings.i saw that the other growers grow more clones then they need that way they can pick the best ones.i will only need 4 clones to go into the 0-2 week bin.em i on the right track to setting this up or what let me know.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 14, 2008)

pppfemguy said:


> wow........not to bad so far ive spent about 2500 on my op


 If you've got 2x 1000HPS in cooltubes, 4 complete and independent flood systems for flowering, a 400HPS and a flood system for the mums and a clonebox with fluoros, heatmat and then timers, blowers and electrics to run it all and then have it all wrapped in a stealthy room that controls scents- and you've done all that for $2500- more power to ya, dood. 



> are 1000 watters harder to work with for that particular op??


 Don't understand what you mean. The 1000 ballasts are pretty fucking heavy (25kg each, eaaaaaaaaaaasy) but aside from that 1000s are no different than any other HPS with a remote ballast. 


> and is it even possible to duplicate ur op?? hahaha


 Well, if I'm doing this right, every last person with an 8' x 9' x 7' space, $3-4000 to kit it up and access to 3500W worth of AC power should be able to carry it off.



honkeytown said:


> hey Al...quick question for ya...I just set up some bubbleponics for my clones...is it really worthwhile?.....





hydrogrower420 said:


> was planning to make a clone setup like this guys https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/64661-homemade-rubbermaid-ez-cloner-pics.html except a lot smaller.is this a good setup?


 I've used an aerocloner before and also found that the striking times were inconsistent. Temp stability of the rootzone is critical and hard to maintain in aero and presumably DWC cloning arrangements.

I get 100% strikes in 7-8 days in 40mm rockwool cubes, every single time. RW cubes are fiddly for people who haven't used them before. Details here: https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html Once you work out how to keep the cubes damp and not saturated, you can set your watch by the rooting speed in RW cubes. 



> i have a 250watt hps already i could use that for clones and mothers.


Set up a clonebox and equip it with fluoros, use the 250 for the mums. 



> am i on the right track to setting this up or what let me know.


yep, all good so far but ventilation in your closet is going to be a challenge. Build it up and run it with no plants in it and make SURE it can maintain the right temp range. It's a lot easier to fix that with no plants in the op and none to kill if it's wrong!


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## HATCH (Aug 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct,,,Hey What's UP????......Got One Of The Chamber's Finished,,

I Ended Up Getting A Dayton 10" 665cfm Axail To Push, & I Put A 95cfm Active Air Squirrel, To Pull At The End, I Had A Few 90*,,,I Also Added A 465cfm Active Air Squirrel To The Exhaust,,,,,At The Very Top Of The Chamber, After The Light Was On 11-Hour's,,, & The Temp Has Stayed At 85*,,,,,,,,At The Top Of My Areoponic Pod's, The Temp Has Stayed At 79*,,,,,,,It's Amazing What The Cooltube Has Done For The High Temp's I Was Getting,,,Right At 100* In The Top & 97* At The Canopy!!!!!

I Hooked This Light Vertical,,With The Fixture On The Bottom,,,I Can Already Tell The Plant's Are Going To Love It!!!!,,,,,Thank's For The Guidance!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do You Think It Would Be A Good Idea, For Me To Add CO2?????
If I Add CO2, & The Exhaust To The Chamber Would Need To Be Off, When The CO2 Come's On????,,,,,,,What Temp's Can It Rise To & Be OK????
& I Guess The Intake Would Need To Be Off As Well????


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## hydrogrower420 (Aug 14, 2008)

alright man im gonna read up on how you do your clones.seems like you have a surefire way to get clones for the sog.do you have to have a clone box can i set my mothers under 250watt hps and then set clones under fluoros next to it on the same shelf?you know any online stores that sells good vent. parts?what do you need a fan and some ducting for ventalation?im not fimliar with flouros what size and how many i need?


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Light from HPS lamps is emitted mainly perpendicularly to the lamp tube's axis, so we don't care too much about the condition of the end of your reflector. Even in this sad shape, it should cover a 2.5x3.2' area with no trouble.
> 
> No. I've said several times that cooltubes should have their own closed air path and own blower- and why... but I'll repeat myself one more time.
> 
> If you use the cooltube's blower as the exhaust fan, you can not use a thermostat on it. It has to run all the time the lights are on regardless of the air temp in the room. You will have poor temp stability with a single blower.


So, I guess just pull the good side off, and hang it asap with no sides? Like your DIY Reflector? I'm probably going back to bed, but it will get done today and updated in my journal. I have electric worries as well. I am running an indoor ac in the room to keep things cool. High Temps have been a problem. The AC n HPS may blow the switch. I will let you know later. When the compressor kicks on, it dims the floros now.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 14, 2008)

Hey Al, quick other question. I'm sure you are familiar with HTG Supply.com What do you think of their cool tube?


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## hybrid (Aug 14, 2008)

Al,

Any recommendations on smart switch timers? You know, something that cuts one set of lights off and powers up the others so you could hypotheticaly have 2 seperate flowering chambers on one ac line?

Light set "A" runs 9pm to 9am and at 9am the switch flips "A" off but immediately swithes set "B" on to run from 9am to 9pm?

I know there is a device that does it but its super spendy. While it is really cool in the fact that it is really nothing more than a super smart lamp cord splitter. It runs one ballast for every 2 lights, effectively never letting the ballast turn off. 

No massive draws of juice for umpteen ballasts and no real signature of regular "suspicious" draws.

Its 700 bucks though............maybe you know of something similiar but not so spendy?


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## BigBudBalls (Aug 14, 2008)

Hook a DPDT relay to your timer. Let the timer power the relay. 
Lamp A gets connected to the NC terminals, lamp b gets the NO terminals and the COM are the power in from the ballast. The coil gets powered from the timer (120/230VAC coil depending on where you are at)



hybrid said:


> Al,
> 
> Any recommendations on smart switch timers? You know, something that cuts one set of lights off and powers up the others so you could hypotheticaly have 2 seperate flowering chambers on one ac line?
> 
> ...


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## jivalst (Aug 14, 2008)

Thanks Al...


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## bigal10 (Aug 14, 2008)

so al I want to give my clones and res. h202 50% hort. grade but for some reason they were pulled off the shelves of every hydro shop in california what should I do cant find it anywhere. How do I use the 3% from walmart. All Im feeding my clones is water @5.0 ph with 2 teaspoons of compost tea for every gallon. Help. Oh I live on a property that has its own well.


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## BCnative (Aug 14, 2008)

so al i was lookin over this figured id give u a stalk since u posted such an arrogant comment in wat was apparently a joke thread just trying to get some attention and im seein somethin im interested in i just bought me a 400 w hps ballast bulb n socket n i got 2 questions for ya since ya seem to know wat ur talkin about im wonderin how hot does that cool tube get (thhinkin about gettin one) and do you know wat i could do to wire this ballast? i bought it and it just the capacitor ignitor and the heavy ass metal box all wired together no case or anythin so like any advice?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 14, 2008)

HATCH said:


> It's Amazing What The Cooltube Has Done For The High Temp's I Was Getting,,,Right At 100* In The Top & 97* At The Canopy!!!!!


 Great to hear it.  Cooltubes are highly effective. If you put enough air through them to keep the cooltube's glass cold, they're doing their job. Downside is the cooltube blowers have to run at all times when lights are on, adding to the general grow-op noise pollution. If your cooltube blower/s make too much nose, get a motor speed controller and slow them down a little. A blower running at 80% of max speed may make 50% less noise but still be shifting enough air to get the job done. 


> I Hooked This Light Vertical,,With The Fixture On The Bottom,,,I Can Already Tell The Plant's Are Going To Love It!!!!


 It'll be interesting to see how that works out. Like I said before, light will be strongest when it doesn't have to bounce off a reflector first to get to the leaves. You've made a direct path to plants which can surround this vertical lamp. 

However, SoG ops deliberately grow short plants which don't normally need side lighting. SoG tailors plants to suit the foliar penetration available from overhead lighting, even though quite a lot is coming via a bounce off the reflector. 

I will be interested to see how you tailor your plants to the lighting you've set up.



> Do You Think It Would Be A Good Idea, For Me To Add CO2?????
> If I Add CO2, & The Exhaust To The Chamber Would Need To Be Off, When The CO2 Come's On????,,,,,,,What Temp's Can It Rise To & Be OK????
> & I Guess The Intake Would Need To Be Off As Well????


 CO2 is only worth doing if done right- and it's not cheap. You'll need a tank & regulator for starters, but the magic happens with a proper, modern CO2 sensor & applicator device (controller). These controllers have a sensor which measures the CO2 content in the air, valving which can turn gas flow on and off and electrical outlets for fans and/or aircon units. All of the exhaust fan management is done automagically by such units. There's several makers of these controllers, but all of them cost a _*MOTZA. *_Most I've seen are $1000-2000 or more. CO2 equipped ops should run at 29C max. 

The nut is that they are the very best at holding your room at 1500ppm, replacing gas when exhaust blowers must run and only applying gas duing lights on. These automated controllers cost a lot going in but they are the surest way of getting the best benefit from the gas and will cut your CO2 refill costs to the minimum. 

You can get simpler tank-based systems which apply gas via timer settings but don't sense the level. If the blowers have run, the gas is gone and the 'dumb' controller doesn't know to add more. 

Combustion-based CO2 generators (LP or natural gas, some alcohol burners) are usually not suitable for small ops due to the amount of heat they make. Their operation alone will trigger exhaust blowers. Aircon will keep the gas in the room but cost you a packet for the aircon to shift the combution generator's heat outside. Combusters work best in glasshouses or large warehouse grows.

Chemical reaction (yeast/sugar, vinegar/baking soda) CO2 generators are simply not worth fiddling around with. You don't know how much gas they make and control of gas concentration is impossible. 

Have fun. 



hydrogrower420 said:


> do you have to have a clone box


 Oh yeah. Clones need very tight, stable temp control to give you reliable and predictable rooting times. They also need to be kept warmer than the mother plants. Mums should run 24-26C. The clonebox should be 28-30C with a 30C heat mat. 



> you know any online stores that sells good vent. parts?


 Hardware stores seem to be as good an option as any. I'm not well placed to make recommendations unless you're in Australia. 



> what do you need a fan and some ducting for ventalation?
> im not fimliar with flouros what size and how many i need?


 For the clonebox, which should be around the size of a 2-drawer business filing cabinet, an 80-100mm fan up high on the wall or on the top will do. You'll need a thermostat set for 30C which can directly switch your line voltage to the fan. 








The clonebox will need a screened cool air intake hole placed down low, which you can partly or mostly cover up when ambient temps get cool. I use traditional 24" (18W) fluoros in my clonebox- there's 3 twin-tube fixtures hanging by open-link chain from the ceiling of the clonebox. You could alternatively put a few lamp sockets on a piece of timber and put perhaps 4x large CFLs in them and hang that above the plant area. 



Kaosisglobal said:


> So, I guess just pull the good side off, and hang it asap with no sides? Like your DIY Reflector? I'm probably going back to bed, but it will get done today and updated in my journal. I have electric worries as well. I am running an indoor ac in the room to keep things cool. High Temps have been a problem. The AC n HPS may blow the switch. I will let you know later. When the compressor kicks on, it dims the floros now.


 I don't think I'd worry about removing the other end bit on your reflector. Might make it easier for you to bend the reflector to get the light best distributed, tho. 

I would expect lights on the same circuit to flicker when an aircon compressor starts. Just make sure you are using only HD rated extension leads if any are needed and that you are not exceeding the current rating of the power outlet you're using to run the grow.



Kaosisglobal said:


> Hey Al, quick other question. I'm sure you are familiar with HTG Supply.com What do you think of their cool tube?


 Cooltubes is cooltubes. 150mm glass tube, aluminium collars on either end for duct fitting. Shop for the best price for the size you want, lengths vary from 300-800mm (long ones for 2 tubes) but most all are 150mm (6") dia.



hybrid said:


> Al,
> 
> Any recommendations on smart switch timers?
> 
> ...


I can't see the advantage of attempting to run 2 lights off one ballast. The 'massive draws' you suggest are about 50% over running current for about 15 sec while the arc is striking. The cost of one ballast per lamp is a lot less than a $700 high current, fast switch for the globe side of the ballast. 

Power companies don't have the ability to peer down your power line to see the load changes you suggest, unless you have a 'smart' digital kWh meter which can record usage patterns and then be queried remotely. If you have Ye Olde Glasse Jarre power meter with spinning disc, the only information the pwr co has is how many kWh you've used since the last meter reading. 



bigal10 said:


> so al I want to give my clones and res. h202 50% hort. grade but for some reason they were pulled off the shelves of every hydro shop in california what should I do cant find it anywhere. How do I use the 3% from walmart. All Im feeding my clones is water @5.0 ph with 2 teaspoons of compost tea for every gallon. Help. Oh I live on a property that has its own well.


I'm not in California so I can't help you with why H2O2 would have been withdrawn from sale. I'd shop around a bit to confirm or deny that info. It sounds a bit unlikely. H2O2 is a hazardous chemical but poses no environmental risks, which is the usual reason stuff gets banned in Cowlifornia. 

You may have to order it online, but many shippers won't transport hazchems. Postal services usually don't, couriers usually do. 

You can use 3% pharmacy grade H2O2 at 17ml/litre of nutrient. If you have a large tank of nutes to treat, this get excessive pretty quickly.

However, I'm not sure I'd use H2O2 with organic nutrients like compost tea. I bet it foams a lot when you add the H2O2- that's what it does when it contacts organic waste matter or simple microorganisms/pathogens.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 14, 2008)

> Today, 03:02 AM
> 
> BCnative
> This message is hidden because BCnative is on your ignore list.


What wazzat? A little louder, can't hear you. 

You got on my ignore list for bad forum citizenship. 

If you stand on one foot and sing the &#9835;&#9835; 'I'm Very Very Sorry' &#9835;&#9835; song and promise never again to post threads with a deceptive title just to get some attention (as you did), I _*may *_take you off the list. Or, I may not. Depends on wot colour socks I'm wearing.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 14, 2008)

Cool Al, I'll keep you up to date. Nothing but water added today. I need to get out to the hardware store or dro shop to get eye hooks or yo yos


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## bigal10 (Aug 14, 2008)

K thank you, but I have seriously have called more than 10 shops and they all said the same. Should I not add the compost tea to my water when feeding my clones? Also I have attached some pics so you can take a look at my problem. I bought the following clones from my medical dispensary black domina, black widow, white widow, purple kush, mazar and og kush. I am going to grow a mother of each and decide which strain I prefer out of all of them. I am currently using Coco, flora nova veg, compost tea, ph @5.7 with a ppm reading of 1000 for my mothers. Should I lower my nutrients on the ebb and flow table for my mothers. Also when I first started I presoaked the cubes in in flora nova veg @ ph 6.0 and a ppm reading of 600, which was probably a huge mistake. I also fedding them nutrients 2 days later for the first time and the black widow (attachment 217) began turning yellow and got black dots on it . Then, I just switched to ph water @ 5.0 with compost tea to feed my clones and no nutrients till I put them on the ebb and flow table.The other pic of clones have only been feeding water @5.0ph with 2 teaspoons of compost tea for every gallon. Can you get an idea of what I should do by my pics? Thank you!


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## BCnative (Aug 14, 2008)

god dam man how the hell am i gonna sing u a song n promise that shit if u cant see me


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## BCnative (Aug 14, 2008)

sorry sorry sorry la la la cant see this anyway lotsa space to fill


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## BCnative (Aug 14, 2008)

take me off get me off get me wet SLIPNSLIDE


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## sparkafire (Aug 14, 2008)

BCnative said:


> god dam man how the hell am i gonna sing u a song n promise that shit if u cant see me


PICS WE WANT PICS!!!!! 

Sparky


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## hybrid (Aug 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I can't see the advantage of attempting to run 2 lights off one ballast. The 'massive draws' you suggest are about 50% over running current for about 15 sec while the arc is striking. The cost of one ballast per lamp is a lot less than a $700 high current, fast switch for the globe side of the ballast.
> 
> Power companies don't have the ability to peer down your power line to see the load changes you suggest, unless you have a 'smart' digital kWh meter which can record usage patterns and then be queried remotely. If you have Ye Olde Glasse Jarre power meter with spinning disc, the only information the pwr co has is how many kWh you've used since the last meter reading.


Its not so much the idea of the power company so much as the idea of being able to use one socket (line voltage) to run the two setups side by side. That being said, the recommendation for a switch that will handle flipping the setups is what I need to figure out.

If you know an easy way to do a flip flop for lights, please fire away. I dont want to reinvent the wheel and start wiring up all kinds of stuff. I know electricity but Im not an electrician and burning down houses is kind of lame. For most people I assume anyways.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 14, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> K thank you, but I have seriously have called more than 10 shops and they all said the same.


Wow, that's wild. Would like to find out more about that. Let me know if you find out what's going on. 



> Should I not add the compost tea to my water when feeding my clones?


H2O2 can break down organic nutrients. My note was intended to caution against use of H2O2 with organic nutrients.



> Also I have attached some pics so you can take a look at my problem.


The plants in the big RW blocks with yellowing leaf margins and droopy leaves look like they're being overwatered. These should be flooded only 1x/day for just a couple of minutes. 



> Should I lower my nutrients on the ebb and flow table for my mothers. Also when I first started I presoaked the cubes in in flora nova veg @ ph 6.0 and a ppm reading of 600, which was probably a huge mistake.


RW cube presoaking solution should be 5.0 and no nutes for 24h before plugging stems in them. This soln must be drained as fully as possible before plugging in the cuttings. Clone watering soln should be 5.8 and no noots til they have roots. 



> I also fedding them nutrients 2 days later for the first time and the black widow (attachment 217) began turning yellow and got black dots on it . Then, I just switched to ph water @ 5.0 with compost tea to feed my clones and no nutrients till I put them on the ebb and flow table.The other pic of clones have only been feeding water @5.0ph with 2 teaspoons of compost tea for every gallon. Can you get an idea of what I should do by my pics? Thank you!


5.0 is way too low. You will be locking out nutrients below 5.5. Run them at 5.8.



hybrid said:


> Its not so much the idea of the power company so much as the idea of being able to use one socket (line voltage) to run the two setups side by side.


 Why not just add another line voltage socket and use 1 ballast for each lamp?



> If you know an easy way to do a flip flop for lights, please fire away. I dont want to reinvent the wheel and start wiring up all kinds of stuff.


 You're reinventing the wheel with some sort of switch. It's not only unnecessary but creates a failure point. High currents and switching devices must be mixed with great care (and very expensive contactors). Just use one ballast per lamp, each on their own power point and the job's done with no switching device to fail- problem solved... and other problems prevented. I absolutely don't see the point of buying a $700 switch to avoid using a $100 ballast and/or adding a $5 power outlet. Sorry, but this is silly.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 14, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> K thank you, but I have seriously have called more than 10 shops and they all said the same.


All very curious. Went looking for info. I've been all over Google and can't find any news about H2O2 being withdrawn from sale in Cowabunga. 

Discount Hydroponics in Riverside sells 35% H2O2: Discount Hydroponics - HyOx

Better Grow Hydro in LA has it (strength not speciified): Oxy Blast! - gallon |

Pacific Coast Hydro in LA has it: Search Results : Pacific Coast Hydroponics, Premium Indoor Gardening Supplies

GoBig Hydroponics in LA has it: GoBig hydroponics H2O2


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 15, 2008)

Hey Al, since you look familiar with the online sites, do you know of the cheapest site for a ph and tds pen, or the cheapest all in one unit. I had clicked Discount Hydro, and they had the TDS pen for $35, but it had a bad review.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 15, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Hey Al, since you look familiar with the online sites,


I'm as familiar with the online sellers as Google will let me be. You have the same search tool at hand.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 15, 2008)

I would avoid all-in-one meters. pH meter electrodes only last 2 years (on any pH meter). After then, they have to be replaced. If you buy a pH only meter with a user-replaceable electrode, you won't be without your meter come electrode replacement time. I use Eutech pH meters for this reason. Not cheap, but a $112 meter that lasts 6-7 or more years is cheaper than a $30-50 meter every 1-2 years.

Bluelab's Truncheon TDS meter is the gold standard for reliability in nute meters. Avoid thir pHTruncheon- it's a mutt. I had 3 fail in rapid succession before I gave up. The Truncheon TDS meter is bulletproof, tho. Will be the last meter you buy, mine's 7 or 8 years old.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 15, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I would avoid all-in-one meters. pH meter electrodes only last 2 years (on any pH meter). After then, they have to be replaced. If you buy a pH only meter with a user-replaceable electrode, you won't be without your meter come electrode replacement time. I use Eutech pH meters for this reason. Not cheap, but a $112 meter that lasts 6-7 or more years is cheaper than a $30-50 meter every 1-2 years.
> 
> Bluelab's Truncheon TDS meter is the gold standard for reliability in nute meters. Avoid thir pHTruncheon- it's a mutt. I had 3 fail in rapid succession before I gave up. The Truncheon TDS meter is bulletproof, tho. Will be the last meter you buy, mine's 7 or 8 years old.


Cool, So I'm guessing that I should also stay away from the meters in the $40 range. As I look around they seem cheap for a reason. The Truncheon is fair priced. Definantly cool. Thanks for the recommendation. I will also try to hit the dro shop here (which isn't really local), and see what they have to offer. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 15, 2008)

Farm out, mang.


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## pppfemguy (Aug 15, 2008)

damn AL is a busy man.........


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## jivalst (Aug 15, 2008)

Ok Al,

Does this look correct for a 12x12 room with 4'x6' flood trays? Given that this is done correctly what do you estimate my yeild running Big Bud? How many clones would it take to fill my 4x6 trays? I'm thinking 36. Thanks in advance.

I also thinkin I'll use my 1000hps for my mothers...what you think?


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## jivalst (Aug 15, 2008)

Sorry forgot the diagram


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## edux10 (Aug 15, 2008)

hey AL are you using CO2? What controller do you use or how do you set up your timer. Thanks!!


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 15, 2008)

any validity to the claim that gh flora micro and bloom will burn the plants if used at recomended strength? i heard that you can't follow the chart on the bottle, that your supposed to use about half of what they recommend.


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## rbahadosingh (Aug 15, 2008)

Hey al any guesses on what my yield might be? 40 plants in SOG under 1000w HPS. all about a foot and a half and dont look like they are getting any taller


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 15, 2008)

jivalst said:


> Ok Al,
> 
> Does this look correct for a 12x12 room with 4'x6' flood trays?


No- you generally want no more than 3 cooltubes in series, at least when pushing them with your average 150mm axial blower. Each lamp will raise the temp of the air passing by them by about 6-7C for a 1000, 5-6C for a 600, 4-5C for a 400.

With 1000s and an intake air temp of 20C, the temp of the air reaching cooltube #4 will be approaching 41C. The presence of the lamps and sockets in the tubes impedes airflow. 3 in a row is tolerable for your average 150mm axial blower (free air rating usually ~200CFM, drops lots with obstructions) but axials don't work well into high static pressures/obstructions. So, while even 41C air will pick up the lamp heat, the 4th tube's glass will probably get warm, defeating the purpose to some degree. The reduced airflow may also cause the glass on 1, 2 & 3 to be warmer than they should be as well.

If you have to daisy chain a lot of tubes or have a lot of sharp bends in ducting, you should opt for a centrifugal blower. Unfortunately, 150mm centrifs are both rare and about 4-6x the cost of an axial.

Cooltube blowers should push cool air into the duct instead of pulling warm air from the exhuast end or being fitted inline. Fans should be kept out of the warm air stream- this can reduce their lifespan significantly.

There is no need for a carbon filter on a closed cooltube air circuit. Air is drawn from outside the room and dumped outside, so there's no scent in the air running through the cooltubes.

Cooltubes must have their own blower; there must be separate blowers for intake and exhaust of room air, controlled by a thermostat. Cooltubes require constant airflow during lights-on. If a single blower is used to drive the cooltube and vent the room, it can not be operated on a thermostat. Stopping the airflow during lights-on will cause the cooltube to overheat. Room air temp stability will be poor if it is constantly ventilated with no thermostatic control.


> Given that this is done correctly what do you estimate my yeild running Big Bud? How many clones would it take to fill my 4x6 trays? I'm thinking 36.


A well running SoG op can make 1-1.25oz per plant.



> I also thinkin I'll use my 1000hps for my mothers...what you think?


I'm thinkin' that's way too much for mums. Use a 400 or a 250.



edux10 said:


> hey AL are you using CO2? What controller do you use or how do you set up your timer. Thanks!!


No, I'm not using CO2. If I did, I would opt ONLY for a 'smart' CO2 controller, one which has the ability to measure CO2 ppm and add more gas as needed. These 'smart' controllers also operate the exhaust blower and /or aircon units. These 'smart' types are EXXY, usually >$1000 or more- and that's on top of hiring an E size cyl of CO2 and purchase of a regulator. Timer-only based CO2 applicators don't have the ability to measure gas and don't know to add more if the exhaust fans have run and blown all the gas out. You have no idea whether your gas did any good at all. 'Smart' controllers are costly going in but reduce your CO2 refill costs to the minimum and also assure that you have enough gas concentration to have done some good. Properly done, CO2 can increase yields 20-30%. Only you can decide whether dropping a couple grand is worth that yield increase. In my case, it's not worth it. 



bugsrnme said:


> any validity to the claim that gh flora micro and bloom will burn


Can't comment, I don't use GH, can't even get it here that I know of.



rbahadosingh said:


> Hey al any guesses on what my yield might be? 40 plants in SOG under 1000w HPS.


Like I have said, a properly operating SoG op should be making about 1-1.25oz per plant. You can fit as many as 4 plants per sq ft in SoG. I don't go quite that dense. My op is about 2.6 plants per sq ft.


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## rbahadosingh (Aug 15, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Like I have said, a properly operating SoG op should be making about 1-1.25oz per plant. You can fit as many as 4 plants per sq ft in SoG. I don't go quite that dense. My op is about 2.6 plants per sq ft.


yeah i know you said that. but given the circumstances that my plants probably wont get to the SOG norm of 36" - 40" tall per plant. what do you think they will yield if they finish at 24" or less.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 15, 2008)

rbahadosingh said:


> yeah i know you said that. but given the circumstances that my plants probably wont get to the SOG norm of 36" - 40" tall per plant. what do you think they will yield if they finish at 24" or less.


wow, hard to say. It really depends on how severe the stunting is; what's actually causing it, whether some transient problem condition or one that's ongoing, etc. It could be as bad as 1/4z per, all things considered. 

Extending the flowering time may minimise the loss in slowies, but keep an eye out for hermaphrodism. Sometimes long flowering plants can pop out a few bananas and make a mess of things if not caught & removed from the room ASAP.


----------



## jivalst (Aug 15, 2008)

Lets see if this would work. Check out the new layout

I know that there a four lights per run but maybe I could just get a larger fan?

If so what size centrifu Fan do you recomend?

Is it a problem to reduce the duct size connecting to the cool tubes...so the duct is large enough for the fan?

Would you suggest blowing the light heat inside the attic instead of out the window and just the scrubber out the window?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 15, 2008)

jivalst said:


> Lets see if this would work. Check out the new layout


Better!

I see what you're doing schematically, but in practise, replace the 90 deg bends on the cooltube ducts with wide, sweeping curves. Less flow restriction. 

Carbon filters are not usually inline devices, though I think you can get inlines for a bit more dough. Shop around. Most have got a duct flange on one end but the sides of the barrel, made of a carbon impregnated foam ie Odorsok type or in traditional types, by two concentric barrels of screen with activated carbon granules filling the gap between the screen barrels, is where the air exits. 

I'm sorry, I giggled at your note about a 'coal' filter. Wondered if you were going to use anthracite or lignite.  The material is activated carbon aka activated charcoal, not coal. Close carbon cousins but very different in physical properties. 



> I know that there a four lights per run but maybe I could just get a larger fan?
> 
> If so what size centrifu Fan do you recomend?


A 150mm centrif will do for 4 in a row and you'll need 2. A 250mm centrif could be used with a wye & adapters to drive both runs of 4, tho. However, you'll gasp when you see the prices of centrifs. 

You may want to remap this into 3 duct runs with 3 cooltubes in two of the duct runs and 2 in the remainder, each run pushed with a good quality though comparatively inexpensive 150mm axial. I bet it works out hundreds of dollars cheaper even with 3 fans and more ducting. 

Any of the 3 ways would work as well. Just depends on wot you wanna spend. 



> Is it a problem to reduce the duct size connecting to the cool tubes...so the duct is large enough for the fan?


No, easy. Moulded plastic reducers are available from giant hardware and hydro shops for this purpose. You can get 150-250mm adapters, wye pipes, etc. 



> Would you suggest blowing the light heat inside the attic instead of out the window and just the scrubber out the window?


I'd dump it all into the attic. Less noise outdoors, no telltale vent blower pumping air out the window. The attic has several vent points. Your room 
heat will be dispersed in the attic airmass and be vented out many points. 

*IF *LEO were so inclined as to look at your house with FLIR (which he can't _*legally*_ do unless he has 'drug activity' evidence with which to FIRST get a warrant), your heat signature is minimised. Stealth aircraft do the same thing, they mix their engine exhaust gas with other air and disperse it through a larger number of small vents.


----------



## CALIGIRL (Aug 15, 2008)

Hey abf i went to check on my clones today, and the tops of some of them are purplish? Any idea what this is?













thanks =)


----------



## KidCreole (Aug 15, 2008)

hey quick question. im way too high to figure this out on my own and i thought you might know the answer. I heard that spraying nicotea on plants can kill spidermites, but how is that not dangerous when the final product is, if ever, smoked? Are you unknowingly giving yourself cancer?


----------



## jivalst (Aug 15, 2008)

Okay just to be sure....is this what you mean?
And will the 10" Blower on this page work
Discount Hydroponics - Vortex Power Fans


----------



## hydrogrower420 (Aug 15, 2008)

al b quick question im gonna be growing afghan i need to know how tall my plants get in the sog method so i dont make the sections im my closet too small.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 15, 2008)

CALIGIRL said:


> Hey abf i went to check on my clones today, and the tops of some of them are purplish? Any idea what this is?


 Looks like a phosphorus deficiency. If the nute stength is OK (1400), the pH could be off, locking out P. What's the pH? What's the nutrient? Been adding any Mg (Epsom salts)?



KidCreole said:


> hey quick question. im way too high to figure this out on my own and i thought you might know the answer. I heard that spraying nicotea on plants can kill spidermites, but how is that not dangerous when the final product is, if ever, smoked? Are you unknowingly giving yourself cancer?


 Nicotine may work as a miticide, depends on if your mites are heavy smokers, they may already be resistant or addicted.  There's better miticides, try Avid. 

Nicotine itself is not carcinogenic. The carcinogenic culprits in tobacco are tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNAs), which are formed in curing and burning tobacco leaf.



jivalst said:


> Okay just to be sure....is this what you mean?
> And will the 10" Blower on this page work
> Discount Hydroponics - Vortex Power Fans


Yep, that'll do. I'd reverse the direction of your exhaust blower and put the carbon filter up in the attic to save space in the grow room. They're kinda bulky.



hydrogrower420 said:


> al b quick question im gonna be growing afghan i need to know how tall my plants get in the sog method so i dont make the sections im my closet too small.


Most strains come to about the same height in SoG, finishing at about 40" max from the media surface. The amt of vert height you need in your room varies depending on how tall your watering system is, but figure you need at least 24" clearance for lighting above the tallest plant.


----------



## hydrogrower420 (Aug 16, 2008)

yeah i was planing to make the vert. height something like the diagram in the pic. it would make it easyer cause i would only have to build 1 shelve.but to be able to fit im gonna have to change up the shelves so i can make more vert. room. 





should i run extention cords out of the door to a power strip?the pic is just like a basic thing nothing to detailed.for my clonebox i have a 48in fixture already i have to order two bulbs though you think thats gonna be enough light for my clones? i have a list of things im going to buy and i want to make sure im getting the right things.do you think i would have enough light in my flowering room?looks like i have to smoke a couple bowls and redraw the picture for more vert. space..so how much more vert. space you think i need to add?


----------



## hydrogrower420 (Aug 16, 2008)

also im gonna get two 100gal dual output tetra whisper air pumps.im gonna have 1 airline connected to 12 in. airstone inside each 18gal bin.and the mothers will have a 60gal dual output pump to connect to two 12in airstones inside their 18gal bin.is that enough air for each bin?..the only one that would be almost full of water would be the 0-2 week bin.all the others you can just fill halfway right?
theres gonna be 4 plants per flowering bin.how many mothers should i have?
is this a good heatmat for my clones?
http://hydrowarehouse.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/2/products_id/405?osCsid=6eb4684bf1d0e742362500e44981e691


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## hydrogrower420 (Aug 16, 2008)

o what size rockwool you use for your clones?
HydroWarehouse Online Hydroponic Superstore
would these fans be good enough for intake and exhaust for my closet?
thanks for all the help.


----------



## hybrid (Aug 16, 2008)

hydrogrower420 said:


> o what size rockwool you use for your clones?
> HydroWarehouse Online Hydroponic Superstore
> would these fans be good enough for intake and exhaust for my closet?
> thanks for all the help.


according so some simple numbers he has already, your pic doesnt work. Youll need to ditch the mother being in the same box to have all the room you want.

Shouldnt be a big deal to use another box for a single mother though. 

I have designed several systems similiar to yours and all of them are easier drawn than built. I hope you make it work for you.


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## unity (Aug 16, 2008)

Hi Al, if I have a highly alkaline medium (rockwool) and I'm in 'drain to waste', should my nute solution be more acidic in order to maintain a accurate ph at the root zone?

I made the mistake of adding some rockwool that was not soaked long enough and it causes my run off ph to be a complete point above what goes in. My res. is at 5.6 and my run off is at 6.8. I think this has caused a lock out with significant signs of deficiencies. 
I approached this by flushing the medium with the rest of my res., I was doing a change anyway so I just used it to rinse the medium. It looks a lot better now, form 5.6 going in to 6.1 coming out, but I could bring the ph down a little in my res. to like 5.3 and then I would have a run off of 5.8. 

What do you think?

Thanks,
Unity


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 16, 2008)

hydrogrower420 said:


> yeah i was planing to make the vert. height something like the diagram in the pic. it would make it easyer cause i would only have to build 1 shelve.but to be able to fit im gonna have to change up the shelves so i can make more vert. room.


Sorry, this needs a total rethink. Not nearly enough vertical height. With a flood system, plan on at least 6' floor to ceiling to make room for the watering system, plants, clearance between plants and lights and some room above the lamp to act as a 'heat sump' where warm air can collect before being exhausted.



> should i run extention cords out of the door to a power strip?


Extension cords and power strips may be used but they MUST be HD rated. Look for 'suitable for air conditioners' on the labelling. Don't exceed more than 80% of the rating of the extensions i.e. no more than 8A continuous load on a 10A rated extension. Power strips which include a circuit breaker are a very good thing. 



> you think thats gonna be enough light for my clones?


Clones don't need to be pounded with light- that's why we use fluoros. Yes, the 48" fixture will do fine, but a 24" would do. 



> do you think i would have enough light in my flowering room?


Yep, a 400 will do nicely for a small grow. 



> so how much more vert. space you think i need to add?


Lots. 

Imagine for a moment what I think when I run into some poor underinformed sod who wants to grow dope in a PC case. Utterly hopeless. The very last place on RIU you will find me commenting is on PC case (and Aerogarden) grow threads. You can't convince these wishfuls that it won't work and I just won't waste my time on them.


----------



## honkeytown (Aug 16, 2008)

hey Al...quick question for ya...I just built a bubble cloner and was talking to the guy at my local shop...he suggested I raise the stems above the water level and just let the bubbles pop on the stems...now here is the question...if I do that, wouldnt I be basically making it and aero cloner?


----------



## hydrogrower420 (Aug 16, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Sorry, this needs a total rethink. Not nearly enough vertical height. With a flood system, plan on at least 6' floor to ceiling to make room for the watering system, plants, clearance between plants and lights and some room above the lamp to act as a 'heat sump' where warm air can collect before being exhausted.
> 
> Extension cords and power strips may be used but they MUST be HD rated. Look for 'suitable for air conditioners' on the labelling. Don't exceed more than 80% of the rating of the extensions i.e. no more than 8A continuous load on a 10A rated extension. Power strips which include a circuit breaker are a very good thing.
> 
> ...


 ^^hahaha.has anybody done a pc grow?i bet the plants look like mini mes..im gonna have the mothers in a diffrent spot.the flowering room will be in the closet and the clonebox on top.did you read my other posts?


----------



## hydrogrower420 (Aug 16, 2008)

hybrid said:


> according so some simple numbers he has already, your pic doesnt work. Youll need to ditch the mother being in the same box to have all the room you want.
> 
> Shouldnt be a big deal to use another box for a single mother though.
> 
> I have designed several systems similiar to yours and all of them are easier drawn than built. I hope you make it work for you.


 hahaha.i think its harder to draw it out.it will work 1 way or the other. im just getting all the info now after i got it all planed out im gonna order all my stuff and take a trip to the hardware store..


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 16, 2008)

hydrogrower420 said:


> is that enough air for each bin?..


should be fine. 



> the only one that would be almost full of water would be the 0-2 week bin.all the others you can just fill halfway right?


You'll be surprised at the amount of mist you'll get from a big bubble curtain's small air bubbles breaking the surface of the water. You may not need to keep the levels as high as you're planning. However, more res capacity is generally better than less, up to a point. Undersized reservoirs suffer from nute strength instability. EC ppm will jump up if the water is removed from the nute soln faster than the nutrients themselves. The result of (nute soln - water) = increased concentration of nutrient per volume of water. Oversized reservoirs have very stable pH & ppm but are wa$teful in that more nute mix us used than the plants could possibly eat. 



> theres gonna be 4 plants per flowering bin.how many mothers should i have?


how many total plants in flower? A good, mature mum which has been pruned back once or twice (or has donated a couple passes of cuttings) raised under HID lighting (either MH or HPS) should give you 5-8 good thick stems every 2 weeks.



> is this a good heatmat for my clones?


Looks OK, can't really tell much about how it is made. My heatmat is moulded in silicone rubber and is fixed at 30C. It was not cheap- about 3x the price of the economy mats. I haven't seen one like mine in some years, but the silicone rubber type is the way to go if you can find them. Mine's been plugged in & running 24/7/365 for the last 8 years. Many heatmats are made of much less durable stuff. 
http://hydrowarehouse.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/2/products_id/405?osCsid=6eb4684bf1d0e742362500e44981e691


hydrogrower420 said:


> what size rockwool you use for your clones?


40mm. 



> would these fans be good enough for intake and exhaust for my closet?


Your ventilation system should be able to shift the volume of air in your room in 3-5 mins. A 500 cu ft room needs a minimum 100CFM blower. I wouldn't go that low unless there were cooltubes shifting the heat from the lamps. 167CFM (500cu ft/3min) or more is suitable for a 500 cu ft room. I don't know how big your closet is in cu ft so I can't really tell you if the 250CFM 6" blowers are sufficient, but I suspect they are. 



unity said:


> I could bring the ph down a little in my res. to like 5.3 and then I would have a run off of 5.8.


Yes, you can do that but be verrrrrry careful. After running at 5.3 for a while, the acidity of the solution may react with all the residual Ca dust in the RW and cause your pH to overshoot low. One day your runoff may be 5.8, but as the Ca dust is all reacted with the phosphoric acid in pHDown, your runoff may drop right down to 5.3, meaning the pH in the rootmass is 5.3, which WILL cause you some grief. I think I'd prefer to flush the media with a large volume of pH 5.8 water with no nutes until the runoff pH comes down to 5.8, then go back to business as usual. Will prevent shooting low. 



honkeytown said:


> wouldnt I be basically making it an aero cloner?


Yep!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 16, 2008)

hydrogrower420 said:


> hahaha.i think its harder to draw it out.


Drawing up a proposed arrangement is a very good thing to do. 

If you fail to plan, plan to fail.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 16, 2008)

hydrogrower420 said:


> ^^hahaha.has anybody done a pc grow?i bet the plants look like mini mes..


oh good heavens, they're all over RIU like a bad rash! One thing they all seem to have in common is a lack of photos showing grand and glorious successes.



> im gonna have the mothers in a diffrent spot.the flowering room will be in the closet and the clonebox on top.
> 
> did you read my other posts?


What, you have something different planned to this image you posted?






This is the arrangement that I was commenting upon that I believe needs a rethink. If you have other plans, why'd you bother posting this?


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## hydrogrower420 (Aug 16, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Drawing up a proposed arrangement is a very good thing to do.
> 
> If you fail to plan, plan to fail.


 haha so true..well should i get that heatmat thats the only brand they have.im not sure what temp it runs at.how flexible is the temp of your heatmat does it have to be at 30c?
heres a new pic.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 16, 2008)

hydrogrower420 said:


> how flexible is the temp of your heatmat does it have to be at 30c?


30C is the magic number. Most fixed temp mats run at 30C.



> heres a new pic.


Just make sure you have room for 40" tall plants and about a 24" gap between the tops and the lights.


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## hydrogrower420 (Aug 16, 2008)

yup..can i use 1 inch rockwool for my clones?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 16, 2008)

hydrogrower420 said:


> yup..can i use 1 inch rockwool for my clones?


25mm cubes? I think those could be a tick small. They may have a tendency to dry out faster than 40mm. Stick with the 40mm plastic wrapped cubes.


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## \x0D (Aug 17, 2008)

Hey Al, 
Many thanks for taking your time to share your expertise-
I posted this in indoor growing, but specifically would like your input as well. Mind taking a look?

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/100142-scrog-gone-apeshit.html

Thanks!
-x0D


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 17, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 25mm cubes? I think those could be a tick small. They may have a tendency to dry out faster than 40mm. Stick with the 40mm plastic wrapped cubes.


well shit al that might be why i failed at your method...i was using the 1 inchers....very hard to get them just right ...they were either super dry or soaked...even with the corner watering....i wonder if that's why i failed?


----------



## gvega187 (Aug 17, 2008)

al, wondering if you use superthrive at all. If so, what concentration would you recommend for cloning and early growth hydro use.


----------



## unity (Aug 17, 2008)

Thanks mate


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 17, 2008)

\x0D said:


> Mind taking a look?


 Did. 



Al B. Fuct said:


> Aside from your stretch prob, everything looks really nice.
> 
> The plants will certainly stretch a bit more. They take 4 weeks in 12/12 to finally quit growing vegetatively and fully switch on flowering. The amount of veg growth will also be affected by the amount of veg time they were given before being chucked in to flower. Obviously, more veg time, the more veg growth you'll get before they fully taper off veg growth in wk4.
> 
> ...





bugsrnme said:


> well shit al that might be why i failed at your method...i was using the 1 inchers....very hard to get them just right ...they were either super dry or soaked...even with the corner watering....i wonder if that's why i failed?


 ding ding ding

ladeez & gennamun, we have a winrar!

Yes, I'm very confident that you're right- the 25mm cubes were the problem. 

Get some 40mm, plastic wrapped cubes and try again. 

 ​ 


Pay close attention to watering. 40mm cubes weigh 5g dry, 20-25g when properly just damp, not saturated. I bet things come good in a hurry if you do that, in concert with good temp control (28-30C) in your clonebox. 

If I can reliably get 100% strikes in 7-10 days with certain conditions, you should get the same with the same. 

 ​ 

You DO have to accurately duplicate my process & conditions, though. Seemingly minor changes can have significant effects. 



gvega187 said:


> al, wondering if you use superthrive at all. If so, what concentration would you recommend for cloning and early growth hydro use.


I have used it in the past, but the effects didn't seem to justify the outrageous cost of the stuff. I know it doesn't hurt anything, anyway. It's been so long since I've used it that I could not quote a dosage rate. 

Superthrive is a 'magic sauce' (additive with unknown/unidentified contents) but one with at least _*some*_ reasonable science owing at least to their acknowledgment of the vitamin B content in the stuff. There's some reputable botanical science that shows vit B can be helpful. I suspect that other brands of vitamin B additives would do the same thing.


----------



## grandpabear3 (Aug 17, 2008)

ding ding ding

ladeez & gennamun, we have a winrar!

Yes, I'm very confident that you're right- the 25mm cubes were the problem. 

Get some 40mm, plastic wrapped cubes and try again. 

Brutal, ....just brutal. but honest. thank you, maybe i'll give it a go.
i guess the size was more than a preference. sorry for the confusion. and thanks for the help.. any advice on being overrun with houseflies?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 17, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> Brutal, ....just brutal. but honest. thank you, maybe i'll give it a go.
> i guess the size was more than a preference.


Brutal? Nah, just enthusiastic that you found the source of the difficulty. 

The size is indeed a preference- a preference for a size that is easy to handle, holds enough water to permit 1x/24h watering if needed and yields deadly reliable results. I've tried 100mm cubes, 25mm cubes, unwrapped cubes, RW floc packed in seedling trays, blah, blah, blah... and the 40mm wrapped cube won the race. 



> any advice on being overrun with houseflies?


jeez, not really, other than checking all the flyscreens and seeing to it that the neighbours start burying their dead instead of just leaving them lying about .


----------



## Trey57 (Aug 17, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> seeing to it that the neighbours start burying their dead instead of just leaving them lying about .


I had the same bug problem in my OP...

I sent my girl over to the neighbors to tell them to bury those damn bodies...

I guess she fell in love with him or something cause she hasn't came back yet...
She won't answer her phone anymore either...

Fucking whore...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 18, 2008)

Trey57 said:


> I guess she fell in love with him or something cause she hasn't came back yet...


Did the fly problem stop when she left? Might be on to something.


----------



## gvega187 (Aug 18, 2008)

roflcopter


----------



## grandpabear3 (Aug 18, 2008)

Trey57 said:


> I had the same bug problem in my OP...
> 
> I sent my girl over to the neighbors to tell them to bury those damn bodies...
> 
> ...


the dangers of a forum that promotes smoking and typing....lol
just playin with ya


----------



## Trey57 (Aug 18, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Did the fly problem stop when she left? Might be on to something.


LOL... good one AL..

Yeah, the flies did leave come to think of it....

Plus I can smell my plants all through the house now....

Damn... all this time she was a walking/talking carbon filter and I let her go...

I said it before and I'll say it again...

fucking whore...


----------



## ZEN MASTER (Aug 18, 2008)

hey al, what's going on? look here i'm wanting to switch from soil to hydro.i started outside and did real well(until i got jacked), the next time around i decided to do the inside thing. it's been ok but, i've gotten tired of all of the problems that come with soil(seen and unseen).There are two systems that i am interested in that i can build on my own. The first is the aeroponic type set-up with the six inch pvc pipes, i'm thinking four units 6.5ft long each with its own rez(8-10 gal)for proper nuts for each stage, eight spaces for net cups on each unit.
The second would be the type that uses a 18 gal plastic tote with the holes cut in the lid. Basically it would be the same set-up; four units each with their own rez(8-10 gal), but maybe with 12-15 holes in the lid.
like i said this is my intro to hydro so i'm not sure what are the pro's and con's of each of these kinds of units. so if you could give me your opinion on what i should start with it would be greatly appreciated, and graciously accepted.
also please take into account that this is being built and applied as per your instructions on havesting every two weeks.

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE,
-ZEN-

Shit i almost forgot what is your recomendation for the amount of nutes(ppm) for each of the four stages?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 18, 2008)

ZEN MASTER said:


> could give me your opinion on what i should start with


Neither one. Aeroponics is not a method I'd suggest for a new hydro grower. 

New hydro growers will have the greatest chance for success with flood systems with plants in pots of absorbent media. Even long experienced growers will appreciate the ability to pick up plants and move them around for maintenance or to put slowies in better light positions. 



> Shit i almost forgot what is your recomendation for the amount of nutes(ppm) for each of the four stages?


1400 from go to whoa.


----------



## ZEN MASTER (Aug 18, 2008)

thanks dude. since your word is pretty much law around here, i'm printing out plans for a flood an drain table as i'm typing.but look here i know now that there are not any pro's for me, but what could go wrong because they seem like pretty easy set-up to maintain.


P.S.once the tables are built, do you have or know where i could go to actually learn how to use it? as far as what type of medium is best, what size pump, how often should i flood and drain, should i flood and drain only while lights are on,off, just ballpark stuff because i see you use that techniques(thanks for the tips on the nutes i thought i was going to be getting back a christmas list of instructions,LOL)

P.P.S.
*YOU ARE THE FUCTING MAN,DUDE!!!!!!!!!*
Thanks for the time. Hopefully this will do for a while.
PEACE!!!


----------



## Lobo69 (Aug 19, 2008)

Hey Al,
I have a few questions on your cloning method.
How is the ventilation in your box setup? I know you keep the temps up with a heating mat. Do you ventilate the box? Intake? Exhaust?
What's your thermostat connected to(intake, exhaust)? What is the temp/humidity inside your clone box? 
Thanks in advance, you da man...

Oh yeah...
Is perlite a good substitute for the fytocell in this setup? I was reading a previous post in which I believe you said you used straight rockwool floc in your pots, but now you use the fyto-floc mix. Why did you switch to fyto-floc...

Okay 1 more. 
I was wondering how low the temp flowing through the cooltubes can be...I am planning on either bringing air from outside in the winter or exhausting it ...say -15 degrees celcius intake. wll the air being exhausted produce steam(would look a bit shady). What could i do to prevent this...

Lobo


----------



## Lobo69 (Aug 19, 2008)

I've been looking for the thermostat that AL is using and cannot find 1 in north america...seriously...lol...Does anyone have a link to where I could find 1 similar online (preferably in Canada)?
Thanks.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 19, 2008)

ZEN MASTER said:


> thanks dude. since your word is pretty much law around here,





> *YOU ARE THE FUCTING MAN,DUDE!!!!!!!!!*


eeeek.  Please, no. While I appreciate very much that you value my input, I absolutely cringe when folks say stuff like this. I absolutely do fuck it up and OFTEN. 'Thanks Al' will do. 




> i'm printing out plans for a flood an drain table
> 
> [...]
> 
> they seem like pretty easy set-up to maintain.


Watering systems get no easier to set up and operate than floods. Impossible to clog. All that can go wrong is a pump or timer failure. If you keep a spare pump handy (and they're not expensive), you're well covered. 



> know where i could go to actually learn how to use it?


well, yeah... probably right here. 



> as far as what type of medium is best,





> how often should i flood and drain,


Depends on how you care to work in the op. Pots stuffed with media which holds a bit of water like rockwool floc and Fytocell are good for stoned slackers (like me) who may not want to look in on the op every day. If a pump or timer fails, there's enough water stored in the media to carry the plants through for a day (and a bit more with rockwool) until you have a chance to correct the problem. However, highly absorbent media does not allow you to flood frequently without drowning roots. 1x/day is enough for RW, 3x/day for Fytocell. 

Media like clay pellets don't hold as much water. The large airspaces between pellets allows you to flood more often, starting with about 5x per lights-on. Since the nutes in the tank are being constantly aerated with an air pump/bubble curtain, freshly oxygenated nutes can be run through the rootmasses more frequently than in highly absorbent media, increasing vigor and growth. Simply flooding and draining also draws more air into the media as when the flood level falls, air replaces water in the medium. It's almost impossible to overwater in pellets. With large, mature plants, you could conceivably flood 1x/hour for 5mins per flood. 

However, pellets are hard to dispose of and while theoretically reusable, are a total bitch to clean fully free of old root matter from the last crop. If you don't fully clean & sterilise pellets before re-use, root diseases can be passed form crop to crop. 

Clones in RW cubes must be nested in the pellets so the cube is about 1/2" _*above*_ the flood level. The cube itself must not be allowed to be saturated. Plants in RW cubes just introduced to pellets should have the pellets around the cube (NOT the cube itself) hand-watered from the top for a week or so until the roots have knit down into the damp pellets. 



> what size pump,


Just about any centrifugal aquarium type water pump will do from the smallest 400L/hr pump (I get those for $11 ea, shop around) on up. Cheaper pumps don't last as long as more exxy ones which move a lot more water, but you really don't need a pump that moves oceans. All your pump needs to do is flood the tray to the overflow tube level within a few (3-5) minutes, then shut off. 

​ ​ 

A big pump (I now use 2000L/hr pumps) IS nice for when you're draining the tank, if you have installed a valving system like this depicted, to make draining easy. A bigger pump drains the tank faster. Just switch the valves to the drain position (close #1, open #2) and go get a coffee. When you're done with that coffee, the tank will be empty and ready to be cleaned & refilled with fresh sauce. Be sure to switch the valves back to the operating position or your new tank of sauce is going down the gurgler when the timer next runs.



> should i flood and drain only while lights are on


Yep, no need to flood during lights-off. The plants transpire very little water in darkness as photosynthesis has halted. The amount of water contained in the rootmass will be sufficient until 'morning.' The last watering should happen no later than an hour before lights-off. 



Lobo69 said:


> Hey Al,
> I have a few questions on your cloning method.
> How is the ventilation in your box setup? I know you keep the temps up with a heating mat. Do you ventilate the box? Intake? Exhaust?
> What's your thermostat connected to(intake, exhaust)? What is the temp/humidity inside your clone box?


Well, the heat mat actually is only responsible for keeping the RW cubes warm. 


​ ​ 

The air is kept warm by waste heat from the fluoro ballasts. 

Not seen in this pic, and for winter use only, I do have a very small (120mm), cheapo desk fan in the box now, mounted above the fluoros and pointed upward. This evens out the air temp within the clonebox so the warm air at the top of the box is mixed with cooler air from below, around the clones. Air temp is set by the thermostat (can't be seen in this pic, it's mounted down low, at plant level), which switches the 100mm exhaust fan (seen in upper left on back wall of clonebox) on when the temp reaches 30C. When the temp has come down to ~28C, it switches off until the temps come up to 30C again. 

Humidity in the box isn't as critical as temp. The RH in this clonebox varies but the temp is bang-on 30C +/-1C at all times. 



Lobo69 said:


> I've been looking for the thermostat that AL is using and cannot find 1 in north america...seriously...lol...Does anyone have a link to where I could find 1 similar online (preferably in Canada)?
> Thanks.


The thermostat I use is sold in Australia at Jaycar Electronics stores. You can order it online and they ship worldwide. 


​
The maker of the tstat is 'Computime' (model 098A) if you care to try to find it locally. the main reason I love this tstat so much is that it can directly switch 240V AC mains devices, either for cooling or heating. I'm sure there's an equivalent in Nth America or the UK if you can't get this particular one. Common HVAC tstats often can't switch line voltage, rather are designed for 24-36V control voltages found in central heating systems. Make sure whatever tstat you select is capable of switching devices at your local line voltage. 

The size of the clonebox isn't terribly critical. My clonebox is fashioned from an old plywood shipping container which is roughly 800mm tall x 600mm deep x 1m wide, should you care to know. There is no intake fan, just a passive intake down low on the back wall, covered with flyscreen. I cover this intake in winter (bit o' packing tape) and allow intake air to come in around the poorly fitting front cover of the box. 



> Is perlite a good substitute for the fytocell in this setup? I was reading a previous post in which I believe you said you used straight rockwool floc in your pots, but now you use the fyto-floc mix. Why did you switch to fyto-floc...


Yep, perlite will work pretty well. It can escape the pot drain holes, so a 25-50mm layer of floc, tightly packed in the bottom of each pot, keeps the perlite (or Fytocell) in the pot while allowing water to flow in and out of the pot during flooding. 

RW floc is HIGHLY absorbent, better than a sponge. It's actually too absorbent and you have to use care not to allow it to be saturated. You can only water pots of RW floc 1x/day without inducing overwatering symptoms, especially in small plants. Fytocell can be flooded more often; I'm flooding plants 3x/lights-on post wk2 now. 

It's important to note that the RW & Fytocell in my pots isn't actually mixed, as such. The floc is packed in a 25-50mm thick layer, very tightly in the bottom of each pot to act as a filter. Keeps the Fytocell crumbs in the pots. Fytocell has a very high air content (40%) and tends to float. When the layer of floc is wetted, the pots won't float. 



> I was wondering how low the temp flowing through the cooltubes can be...I am planning on either bringing air from outside in the winter or exhausting it ...say -15 degrees celcius intake.


The colder, the better! Mind you, I think I would not draw air in at below -100C as this might shatter the HPS tube envelope. Of course, the only way you'll get temps low enough to do any harm is to use liquefied air on your intakes, something you're probably not going to do. 


> wll the air being exhausted produce steam(would look a bit shady). What could i do to prevent this...


If the cooltubes have a closed air circuit (drawing air in from outside the grow & dumping it outside as well), it will not be picking up the humidity transpired (or scents) from the plants and so will not produce any steam, even in very cold temps, unlike air from your clothes dryer or exhaust gases sent up a chimney from a natural gas water heater.


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## DR. VonDankenstine (Aug 19, 2008)

Whats up brother?---Does that tstat come in 120v or is there a mod that can be made?--I'm going to use it set up to my exhaust fan. Anyway-hope you are well and that all is good...


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## bigtittymilf (Aug 19, 2008)

hey alby could you check out this post i made and gimme a hand when you have a minute its long so im not gonna retype it

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/100666-need-help-asap-please-i.html

thanks man for any help


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## toast master (Aug 19, 2008)

Hey ABf ...... been sitting on the sidlines for some time, soaking it all up and just wanted to say many big thanks .............. 
I hope i can pass along a llitle info for all . Have been running your op for 2 mo. getting ready to get that first harvest.. some things i changed were mostly enviromental.. I had problems getting fytocell so i use perlite, to stop any from escaping i use landscape fabric , cut 2 in. larger than the bottom of the pot . soak a couple of hand full of rock floc in a bucket of water and use it to hold the fabric in place like putty. I then top with perlite to full. It works real well .... no spills, water wicks right thru , since thats whats its for.... no more floc escaping.... clogging pumps hope some find this usefull .... I know you dont like praises ... but the test of a true human being is someone who helps and expects nothing in return... thanks again


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## ZEN MASTER (Aug 19, 2008)

hey dude thanks for the info. i plan on getting started a.s.a.p., i think i'll start with some 5L pots.
and as for the ealier comment, didn't mean to freak you out. its just that there are a lot of people on this joint that have a lot of xperience and tested methods that are awesome. but for the most part yours is easier to understand for the xtreme novice, or beginner, and most of the time better,just my opinion ya know.


but anyway i'm out.
and here's a +rep for your time.PEACE!!!!
-ZEN-


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## Dela (Aug 19, 2008)

$300!!! whys are they so expensive in america?
RVK ALTERNATIVE!! IN LINE DUCT EXTRACTOR FAN 250mm 10" on eBay, also Hydroponics, Plants Seeds Bulbs, Garden Plants, Home Garden (end time 26-Aug-08 01:20:06 BST)

thats £45 , thats $90, more then 3 times less

i dont know how much the postage would be to america, but its gotta be cheaper then $200


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 19, 2008)

DR. VonDankenstine said:


> Does that tstat come in 120v or is there a mod that can be made?


 The QT7200 tstat actually runs on a pair of AAA batteries. It can be used for switching 120V as-is with no mods.

Check your local hardware, electronics or HVAC supply store for a similar unit. Mind you, it'll probably cost only about $AUD10-12 to ship from Jaycar in Aus to Nth America. 



bigtittymilf said:


> gimme a hand when you have a minute
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/100666-need-help-asap-please-i.html





bigtittymilf said:


> i dont have a ppm meter yet


 Get one. It's an absolutely necessary bit of kit in a hydroponic op, as is a pH meter. I can't help you much without you having those. You're looking for 1400ppm @ 5.8. 



bigtittymilf said:


> also the room is a littler hot right now still fixing the ventilation right but i have had rooms hotter than this and not turned my leaves crispy


 You also need to buy a digital thermometer/hygrometer with a peak-memory feature. You need to know EXACTLY what's happening with the room temp & RH in your absence. You're looking to maintain 24-26C.



toast master said:


> to stop any from escaping i use landscape fabric , cut 2 in. larger than the bottom of the pot


 Good idea. 



toast master said:


> I know you dont like praises ... but the test of a true human being is someone who helps and expects nothing in return... thanks again


 You're welcome. 



ZEN MASTER said:


> hey dude thanks for the info. i plan on getting started a.s.a.p., i think i'll start with some 5L pots.


Yep, good starting point, could be a little smaller but not much. 



> there are a lot of people on this joint that have a lot of xperience and tested methods that are awesome. but for the most part yours is easier to understand


Thanks for the thanks, nonetheless. 

Simpler is gooder, IMNSFHO. 



Dela said:


> $300!!! whys are they so expensive in america?
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RVK-ALTERNATIVE-IN-LINE-DUCT-EXTRACTOR-FAN-250mm-10_W0QQitemZ160272839274QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item160272839274&_trkparms=72%3A1090%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14


um, did you mean to reply in this thread? I don't see where we were discussing $300 anything recently.


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## bigtittymilf (Aug 19, 2008)

well i just made some chedder so ima go tomorrow and get a ppm meter form thge shop i want 1400ppm for immediately starteing flower from clone? and 5.8 ph right ive also got the thermometer your talking about i just have to finish making the patch in wall for my ventilation into another room dont like venting out of the house im not vegging at all just cloner to flower like your set up in harvest every 2 weeks except not perpetual harvest 

so one last question for now when i move forom cloner to flower room should i be giving them a mix of grow and bloom nutes or just bloom and calmag(i put calmag either way)


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## Dela (Aug 19, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> um, did you mean to reply in this thread? I don't see where we were discussing $300 anything recently.


 
sorry, on page 30 you were discussing how expensive centrif fans were and the last post on that page someone posted a link to centrif fans, over here(in the sunny UK) they're cheap as chips!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 19, 2008)

bigtittymilf said:


> i want 1400ppm for immediately starteing flower from clone? and 5.8 ph right


yep. 



> ive also got the thermometer your talking about i just have to finish making the patch in wall for my ventilation into another room dont like venting out of the house


Smart move. However, if you have the possibility to dump exhaust into an attic, that's a better solution. Not always possible, I know. 



> im not vegging at all just cloner to flower like your set up in harvest every 2 weeks except not perpetual harvest


When I use the term 'perpetual harvest,' it's a relative term. It's a comparison to old style ops where the entire flowering area is filled with its max capacity of clones at one time and that roomful gets harvested all at once in 8 weeks when mature. 

The 'perpetual harvest' concept means you are only feeding in a portion of the room's capacity at one time, waiting for some period, much shorter than the 8 weeks between harvests in the other style, then feeding in more plants, thusly spacing out the harvests. 

In the system I designed, I decided (quite arbitrarily) that every 2 weeks was the desired harvesting interval. Since flowering runs for 8 weeks, it was convenient that I would have 4 flood trays, each suiting a 2-week span of flowering. Plants would be moved from tray to tray through the system in an assembly-line fashion. Clones would be fed in every 2 weeks until the line was loaded. An equal number of matured plants come out of the other end of the pipeline in 8 weeks' time. 

So, 'perpetual' is a bit of a misnomer. You can't walk into my op on any given day and find a plant ready to harvest. Plants go in to flowering in waves every 2 weeks and so come out in waves on the same schedule. When I use the term 'perpetual harvest' I may more accurately mean 'regular harvest,' and in the case of my system, every 2 weeks.



> so one last question for now when i move forom cloner to flower room should i be giving them a mix of grow and bloom nutes or just bloom and calmag(i put calmag either way)


Clones don't generally need any nutes until they go into the flowering room, when they can start right away on 1400ppm flowering nutes. 

An exception might be if you must hold the clones in the clonebox for longer than 14 days. I have that very problem at the moment. I had some trouble at the beginning of winter getting clones to strike. Clonebox got too cold, fixed it, but not before I had about a 6 week gap in getting good batches of clones striking every 2 weeks. This meant that the plants in flower got to stay in the room a bit longer. However, if a plant is left to flower too long, problems like hermaphrodism may pop up, requiring that those plants be harvested ASAP. I left tray 4 to flower for nearly 12 weeks, tray 3 for 10 and tray 2 for 8. Then I had a lot of empty tray space to refill with cloneage. That sort of event fully stuffs up the rhythm of the op. Now there's another logjam of plants not mature enough to harvest, so clones have to spend a long time waiting in the clonebox. 

Clones don't generally need any nutes before they go into the flowering area, when they are started straight away on flowering nutes at 1400ppm. They're living off nutes stored in the leaves when the clones were still attached to the mother plants. After about 14 days in the clonebox, they start to look a bit N deficient. Since they have good roots, I've given this mob a weak veg nute soln (400ppm) to keep them from getting too starved until they can go to flower. I expect some more veg growth out of these plants in wk1-4 of flowering. We'll see how we go. 



Dela said:


> sorry, on page 30 you were discussing how expensive centrif fans were and the last post on that page someone posted a link to centrif fans, over here(in the sunny UK) they're cheap as chips!


heh, I see what happened. You replied using the input box which appears at the bottom of each page. Unfortunately, your post appears at the end of the thread, not in the page you were replying on. 5 pages later, we've forgotten everything already. 

I have accts at a couple of wholesale hydroponics supply houses in Aus. Axial fans, even at whoesale, are still much, MUCH cheaper than any centrif. A good 150mm axial can be had for about $50 while you could not touch a 150mm centrif for under $200. Centrifs are more expensive because they must be made to much closer tolerances thatn axials. The impeller vanes must run close to the blower's housing for them to develop any pressure, which is what they do best. They must be balanced and the impellers have to run true. Axials can wobble and rattle and still work just fine. Centrifs won't.


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## Lobo69 (Aug 19, 2008)

Thanks for all the help...
What size are your pots? Are they more like soil pots with holes only in the bottom, or are they hydro baskets with many holes on the sides of them as well? 
Is it Canna nutes that you use? What is the NPK value of them(veg and flower)? I'm using Optimum nutrients A B, just wondering if they are similar...Thanks again.
Lobo


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 19, 2008)

> What size are your pots? Are they more like soil pots with holes only in the bottom, or are they hydro baskets with many holes on the sides of them as well?


They are plain old black plastic pots intended for soil, 175mm top dia, 130mm bottom dia, 175mm tall, with drain holes. Netpots are not desirable in this application. 



> Is it Canna nutes that you use? What is the NPK value of them(veg and flower)? I'm using Optimum nutrients A B, just wondering if they are similar..


Yes, the Canna product I use is labelled only 'Flores' or 'Vega' and to my knowledge this type is only sold in Aus. The international equivalent probably would be 'Canna Substra.' I'm not exactly sure of the NPK figures on these nutes. The individual part 'a' and 'b' have nonsensical NPK figures as the numbers are for the unmixed nutrient. I don't actually know what the resultant NPK of the mixed nutes may be. And you know what? Doesn't bother me. I leave all that up to the fine folks at Canna. 

I'm going to be scarce for the next several days, it's harvesting time again. Bless/curse/bless/curse/bless/curse/bless/curse.  See you all soon.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 19, 2008)

Before I run off, I do have to comment that nutes really are a pretty small part of successful growing. Lighting, ventilation and temp control are about 80% of it. I have never fussed with 3-part nutes and you couldn't pay me enough to try. 

All 4 of my 125L flowering tanks get 450ml each part 'A' and 'B' when mixing new tanks every 2 weeks, aside from 15ml of pHDown and 125ml 50% grade H2O2 on mixing, per fresh tank, with the H2O2 reapplied every 3-4 days. No muddling about with a teaspoon of this and a smidgen of that plus one tenth of a cap of another on day 16-28 or anything like that. Same mix every time for all tanks. Anytime I dip the tanks with the Truncheon, it's 1260-1400 (narrow as the Truncheon resolves). Nutes are something that I rarely think about and don't really want to. 3-part nutes would drive me barking. 

Only deviation to this single 450ml+450ml in 125L recipe is applying Canna's PK-13-14 to plants in wk 6, 50ml in 125L along with the regular nutes... and I don't always remember to do that. Does help keep them from becoming P deficient in late flowering, though.


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## Lobo69 (Aug 19, 2008)

Hey,
Just letting you guys know that Jaycar only charges $10 for shipping of that thermostat to Canada...can't beat that...they have lots of other interesting stuff as well...hmmm...


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## Lobo69 (Aug 19, 2008)

Awesome man...have a good one...


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## newportbeach949 (Aug 20, 2008)

Hey yall i put together a flood & drain table 3 x 6 . Using Half of the table now with 20- 6 x 6 x i think 6 inch rockwool blocks. The other side filled with hydroton 50l bag, I have 2 hps 400s over the table but only 1 being used, i have a/c keepin temps around 78f with rh 49,

My question is i have been hand watering the cubes one a day for 4-5 days now in the cubes and
i just ran the table for the first time and it seems as tho the rockwool sucked 3 gallons up just being filled 1/3 of the way up the cubes..?

is this normal ? and should i worry over watering with these cubes ? And what size resivor do you think will work?

i have a 30 gallon and its barely works

I have 20 hindu skunk about 10 inches tall, and doing fox farms nutes


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## KidCreole (Aug 20, 2008)

ok a few questions. 1: i have a pitiful excuse for a plant that has been in the growng for 14 weeks total. abt 7 weeks of veg and bloom. i got a few buds, but they dont "look" like buds. I can still see through the middle of the bud! how much longer should i wait? 
B: If i wanted to do one outdoor grow in a well secluded are of my property, i could use pots and run abt the normal soil course, but is it too late for me? i live in the state where hurricanes come 2 for 1... im not really that free to discuss more, maybe just temperature changes, rain, and stuff of that nature... and avid, LOTS of avid, right?


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## VictorVIcious (Aug 20, 2008)

> newportbeach949 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey yall i put together a flood & drain table 3 x 6 . Using Half of the table now with 20- 6 x 6 x i think 6 inch rockwool blocks. The other side filled with hydroton 50l bag, I have 2 hps 400s over the table but only 1 being used, i have a/c keepin temps around 78f with rh 49,
> ...


Sounds like you must be doing something right, I think Al is going to tell you mixing Hydroton and rockwool is not a good idea. Rockwool block, flocks and cubes hold more water than any other medium and should only be watered once a day while Hydroton doesn't hold much water and should be flooded three to five times a day?? Give him a day or two he'll get back to you. VV


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## newportbeach949 (Aug 20, 2008)

thank you victor very much, i'm going to buy a 50 gallon res and it should be plenty to cycle knowing that my 30 just doesnt really do the job,

check out my thread to see pictures of my setup in this part of the forum, i'm going to flush with water today to clear everything and start my new 50 gallon today, plants are great now so i'm not stressing

let me know if you have any tips or advise


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## rdgx34 (Aug 20, 2008)

Hey al i was wondering if i suck in air directly from outside into my growroom would this be better? But temps outside get to about 95deg so thats way to high, but how to do outdoor plants live?


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## bigtittymilf (Aug 20, 2008)

hey thanks alby i sent my girl to get the ppm meter tooday we have t drive like 3 hours to the store so ill have i back tonight and we got the ventilation running proper now our new house doesnt have any attic space its built wierd so the roof is basically like 2 inch form ciling but with the vent running proper its down to around 80 top which i kow isnt totally ideal but it isnt too hot either ive done beautiful ones with high 80s and still got great crystal gowtgh so im happy with this 

and yeah we onlyu use clonex solution in the cloner its incredible the difference a cloner makes compared to cloning in little cups o dirt and we diuted the current nutes with phed water while we were waiting to get ppm meter and they are doig much much better 

we got some blueberry and some sweet tooth flowering now if i get balsy ill pot some pics later when they are budding next time around we have some c99 mothers growing for next crop i cant wait for that to be ready and i started a seed of somne chemdawgx deisel well see how it does and decide if its a keeper

also i knew what you meant when i said perpetual harvest i know you dont just go harvest daily i just alwayed called the systemm you are doing a perpetual harvest i guess for lack of a better term


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## FLtoker (Aug 20, 2008)

Al,

First wanted to say thanks for your help on these forums. It has really helped me a lot. My question is how long should I wait to flower from seed? I have a steady supply of clones and do not have room for mums. I bought these seeds before I realized I would have clones on the regular. I have 3 Papaya and 2 Purps seedling under 2 T5s right now on 24/0. No nutes yet, just pH'd water. Roots coming out of all but only one set leaves at about 1'' tall. When can I give them nutes and flower them. Will be using a 600-watt cooltubed HPs for flowering over a 3x3 flood table.


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## HAZEOHOLIC (Aug 20, 2008)

Hello AL 

I wanted your insight on what size enclosure should I get would like to have 6x6 flood tray with 1000watt aircooled light and also don't have the room to run the steup you run. so I was thinking maybe 6x6 will fit about 72 6" pots so I was thinking of putting maybe 18 pots every two weeks to harvest. Thanks for your time please tell me what you think thanks once again Al


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## specialkayme (Aug 20, 2008)

Hey Al,

Thanks in advance for having this thread to answer all of our questions.

You are nearly the only one I could think of, or at least the best person, to ask: What container size would you recomend to grow individual plants in, within a SOG grow, in order to maximize the potential of the plant? Like a one gallon bucket? Or less than that?

I plan on doing a SOG hempy style grow, not the traditional F&D slabs that most people use, only because this is what I'm most comfortable with.

Thanks man.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 20, 2008)

Hey Al. I got my HPS in without the cooltube in the mean time, but I think I may have to shut it off. My temps are shooting up to 90* Probally higher in time if I leave on.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 20, 2008)

newportbeach949 said:


> My question is i have been hand watering the cubes one a day for 4-5 days now in the cubes and
> i just ran the table for the first time and it seems as tho the rockwool sucked 3 gallons up just being filled 1/3 of the way up the cubes..?
> 
> is this normal ? and should i worry over watering with these cubes ? And what size resivor do you think will work?
> ...


 Yes, it's very easy to overwater rockwool. You SHOULD worry. 

Rockwool is highly absorbent and cannot be flooded frequently. Saturating rockwool drives all the air out which is required for root formation. While you can use rockwool slabs or pots of rockwool floc as the main growing medium, depending on the volume of the rockwool used, it can only be flooded 1x/day. I used 175mm pots stuffed only with RW floc for years. 

When watering rockwool used as the main growing medium, you should allow the plant to remove about half the water weight from the RW before flooding again. If the RW is saturated, it will not take in more water, so flooding RW frequently is not only not good, it's big-time bad. The water in the medium will lose its dissolved O2 before the plant can take up the water, encouraging anaerobic pathogens.

The name of the game in hydroponics productivity is oxygen to the roots. If you can flood the roots more frequently with oxygenated nute solution, you can get more O2 to the roots. 

RW does not lend itself well to frequent flooding, but because it holds a lot of moisture, is very good for starting clones. 

Pellets hold almost no water and have large air spaces between them. You can flood roots which have knit down into pellets several times per lights-on. 

For theses reasons, many people start clones in RW cubes but then plant them in pellets in flood systems once the roots are grown out of the cube bottom. 

However, roots in cubes can not tolerate being watered as often as roots in pellets. To make the transition, newly rooted RW cubes should be nested in the pellets so the cube is about *1/2" ABOVE the flood level*. The roots will seek down into the damp pellets below in a few days. If it makes you feel better, you can handwater the *pellets* AROUND the cube (_*not *_the cube) for the first week after a cube has been nested in the pellets- but they will find the pellets on their own if they are being flooded frequently enough. 

The pellets should be flooded about 5x per lights-on. If the flood level is allowed to contact the cube, it will be saturated and you may get overwatering symptoms. Once the plant has been put in the pellets, the RW is extraneous.

Once the roots are knitted into the pellets, they'll do fine with 5x floods/lights-on or even more if the plants are large and vigorous. 

I'd allow about 5L of reservoir capacity for each plant. 

Not sure what you're up to with that thin layer of pellets in half your tray. 



VictorVIcious said:


> Sounds like you must be doing something right, I think Al is going to tell you mixing Hydroton and rockwool is not a good idea.


 It can be done, as I've just described- you just have to assure that the cube isn't saturated when making the transition into pellets. 



KidCreole said:


> ok a few questions. 1: i have a pitiful excuse for a plant that has been in the growng for 14 weeks total. abt 7 weeks of veg and bloom. i got a few buds, but they dont "look" like buds. I can still see through the middle of the bud! how much longer should i wait?


 Since you haven't told me _anything_ about your setup,  I'm going to look into my crystal ball... you're flowering with fluoros, right? 7 weeks of veg & bloom Did you start from seed or clones? How long did you veg? How long have they been flowering?



> B: If i wanted to do one outdoor grow


 Sorry, I'm not an outdoor guy. Can't help you. 



rdgx34 said:


> Hey al i was wondering if i suck in air directly from outside into my growroom would this be better? But temps outside get to about 95deg so thats way to high, but how to do outdoor plants live?


 Draw in the coolest air you can get. Dump it where it can't be sucked right back into the grow. 

If you can't get air at ~25C to draw into your op, you will need aircon. 

Outdoor plants show heat stress if they're exposed to high temps, too. Effects include leggy growth, runny or bolting buds, etc. If it's hot enough and dry enough for long enough, cannabis plants will cark it. Cannabis is a very thirsty plant.



bigtittymilf said:


> ive done beautiful ones with high 80s and still got great crystal gowtgh so im happy with this


 Your yield and density would have been lots better at 24-26C. THC begins to break down into non-psychoactive components at 29C, so high temps can be robbing you of potency even before you harvest. 



specialkayme said:


> Hey Al,
> 
> What container size would you recomend to grow individual plants in, within a SOG grow,


I use 175mm dia x 175mm tall pots which are about 4L in volume. 



> I plan on doing a SOG hempy style grow, not the traditional F&D slabs that most people use, only because this is what I'm most comfortable with.


You're on your own with Hempys. They keep roots submerged without oxygenation. That's a recipe for root rot. I'm glad you're comfortable with them. Rotsaruck. 



Kaosisglobal said:


> Hey Al. I got my HPS in without the cooltube in the mean time, but I think I may have to shut it off. My temps are shooting up to 90* Probally higher in time if I leave on.


Nope, that won't work. Gonna have to improve the ventilation and get that cooltube. If you have 25C air to draw in, when you have everything right, it'll stay at 25C or very close to it.


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## unity (Aug 20, 2008)

Hi Al, I read some of your responses above, and now I'm worried... 
I run a drain to waste method, my pots are 12" with the bottom 80% being hydroton and the top 20% being rockwool. (my ph is finally stable, thanks for your earlier help on that ) I did that so my feed water would not run through so fast, seems to work, I have a lot less runoff. Do you think that I am robbing my plants of oxygen or is the 80% hydroton in the bottom good? I'm working on a 'perfect' environment, and certainly don't want to f up my grow with something like that?!
Thanks mate!

Unity

I had another question regarding something you mentioned above. Are you saying that even with co2 I should not exceed 78, or just without? I'm still dialing the co2 thing in and have been hearing different temps from different sources. Some say co2 needs higher temps in order to absorb the additional co2, others say 78, I'm lost!!!

Thanks again


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## FLtoker (Aug 20, 2008)

Al,

First wanted to say thanks for your help on these forums. It has really helped me a lot. My question is how long should I wait to flower from seed for a SoG style grow like yours? I have a steady supply of clones and do not have room for mums. Just will root the clones, flower, then get a new batch of cuttings for the next run. I bought these seeds before I realized I would have clones on the regular. I have 3 Papaya and 2 Purps seedlings under 2 T5s right now on 24/0. No nutes yet, just pH'd water. Roots coming out of all but only one set leaves at about 1'' tall. When can I give them nutes and flower them for a SoG-style grow? Will be using a 600-watt cooltubed HPS for flowering over a 3x3 flood table.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 20, 2008)

It wont hurt to leave it until then will it? The room is at 80F/26C. I am running only veg. I even wired the ballast to be out of the box. I've been dealing with temps in the low 80s, cause the temps stay high here. I can't get my room temps out of an average of 78*F. Room is the room where box is. That average is the ambient room temp. If you look at my journal it has been anywhere from 80-83*F on average in the box. The HPS brings it up 7*F. Do you think it is worth the difference. Or switch back until I have a cool tube or room temps get colder as summer fades.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 20, 2008)

unity said:


> Hi Al, I read some of your responses above, and now I'm worried...
> I run a drain to waste method, my pots are 12" with the bottom 80% being hydroton and the top 20% being rockwool. (my ph is finally stable, thanks for your earlier help on that ) I did that so my feed water would not run through so fast, seems to work, I have a lot less runoff.


 You have a layer of RW on the _top_ and you're watering from the top? Rut roh. It's saturated every time you water. It's also catching the water and keeping it from getting to the roots down below in the pellets. 

If you're using pellets, you should be flooding from the bottom. Pellets require watering frequently. I wouldn't have used them in a run to waste (RTW) system. Most of the water applied to the pellets will go straight through. For a RTW system, I'd have chosen a pot full of perlite, Fytocell or rockwool floc. 



> Do you think that I am robbing my plants of oxygen or is the 80% hydroton in the bottom good? I'm working on a 'perfect' environment, and certainly don't want to f up my grow with something like that?!


 If your plants are in pellets, you should be watering them from the bottom with a flood system. 

Sounds f'd up already. I think you should have copied a working, productive system instead of trying to invent your own. 



> I had another question regarding something you mentioned above. Are you saying that even with co2 I should not exceed 78, or just without? I'm still dialing the co2 thing in and have been hearing different temps from different sources. Some say co2 needs higher temps in order to absorb the additional co2, others say 78, I'm lost!!!


 CO2 equipped ops can tolerate up to 29C max. Higher than that and d9-THC in the resin starts breaking down into non psychoactive components. 

The plants can make use of the greater CO2 concentration at any temperature, but the plants can tolerate a higher air temp with CO2 enrichment. They will be able to grow faster at the higher room temp as the photosynthetic process is speeded up at higher temps. However, there's a limit of 29C to stop damaging potency while the buds are still on the plant.



FLtoker said:


> Al,
> how long should I wait to flower from seed for a SoG style grow like yours?


Plants from seed have to be grown to sexual maturity, when preflowers are showing at the nodes, about 6-8 wks under veg cycle light from sprouting beans. Once sexually mature, you then must sex the plant. This can be done by keeping the unknown sex plant in veg cycle light but covering one branch for 12h/day for about a week, or by taking a cutting, getting it to set root and then putting the clone in 12/12 light. It'll show sex in about a week. 



> I have a steady supply of clones and do not have room for mums.


If you have 2 sq ft, you have enough room for a mum. You're going to have to find room to veg your plants which you are growing from seed anyway. 



> When can I give them nutes and flower them for a SoG-style grow?


They can have nutes when they have their 2nd set of 'true' (multi-bladed) leaves. 

SoG depends on a large number of small plants, started as clones so sex is known. The clones taken from a sexually mature mum are also sexually mature. You won't be SoGing your seedlings. They'll need to be grown to sexual maturity and sexed- then you can take cuttings from them and do your SoG grow. 



Kaosisglobal said:


> It wont hurt to leave it until then will it? The room is at 80F/26C. I am running only veg. I even wired the ballast to be out of the box. I've been dealing with temps in the low 80s, cause the temps stay high here. I can't get my room temps out of an average of 78*F. Room is the room where box is. That average is the ambient room temp. If you look at my journal it has been anywhere from 80-83*F on average in the box. The HPS brings it up 7*F. Do you think it is worth the difference. Or switch back until I have a cool tube or room temps get colder as summer fades.


Switch back to what?

80F is not horrid but you will see stretch in veg growth.

I know a guy named Stoney McDoper who tends to start plants first and build the grow room later... it doesn't work for him, either.


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## KidCreole (Aug 20, 2008)

Five 27k 6500w (is that supposed to be reversed?) cfl bulbs and its been fourteen weeks from germination, not counting the week it took for them to pop open, but rather the day i planted them. Since it's only one plant, its just a closet about three feet tall and about one and a half feet across. did i miss anything?


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## iloveit (Aug 20, 2008)

Hey Al I have a simple (I think) question which has been bothering me since I read your "Get a harvest every 2 weeks" which is (in regards to "Get a harvest every 2 weeks":

You mentioned you place your cut clones straight in to flowering, so why do you have clones in a clonebox under floros (I think it was foros, which gave me the impression that you kept it in veg for a while before puting in flower)?

Secondly If I were to place my clones to flower room would it be at all helpful if I was to use a dual spectrum HPS bulb (in terms of growth or otherwise for that matter)?

Hope you reply dude.


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## Chumlie (Aug 20, 2008)

Im also wondering about puting the clones in veg first. I have cabby for flowering then two peices of wood screwed on the top of the cabby that reach about 3 feet off to the right holding eventual two fluros, but right now just one with 20watt cool white and 20watt warm white. The veg. area is an aero system that I want to grow mums in. Now I wondering what system you think I should transfer them into for flowering. 


Also I just put up some mylar sheets that I got from party city. So there a bitch to hang up, and there all loose and not flat, parrallel to the wall is this going to cause light to focus on certain point? (burning)


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 20, 2008)

KidCreole said:


> did i miss anything?


 I know enough now to tell you what's happening. Flowering with fluoros yields fluffy buds. 

Replace the CFLs with a small HPS. A 400 will keep several people in smoke forever. 



iloveit said:


> Hey Al I have a simple (I think) question which has been bothering me since I read your "Get a harvest every 2 weeks" which is (in regards to "Get a harvest every 2 weeks":
> 
> You mentioned you place your cut clones straight in to flowering, so why do you have clones in a clonebox under floros (I think it was foros, which gave me the impression that you kept it in veg for a while before puting in flower)?


 The fluoros are in there only to convince the clones that it's daylight for 18+h/day. This keeps them in veg mode (as the plant material was while it was still on the mother plant) while they are setting root, until they are ready to be chucked in to flower. No appreciable veg growth occurs in the clonebox under the fluoros. 

When plants are in veg mode and are chucked in to 12/12 under the, big lights, they will keep growing in a veg habit though which tapers off during the first 4 wks, while the flowering habit ramps up. 

If I were to have 12/12 light in the clonebox, I would be triggering the flowering habit early, while they were getting very little light from fluoros. If they were then chucked in to flower under big lights, they would only continue in a tapering veg habit for 2 weeks. This would result in stunted plants, I'm betting about 500mm tall instead of coming up to about 1m by the end of wk 4. 

So, when I talk about 'zero veg time,' I mean (and usually do specify) 'zero-veg time post setting root.' This differs from the process of giving a clone some veg time under a big light to get some appreciable veg growth before flowering. If clones are vegged under big lights before flowering in SoG, they get too tall, negating the benefit of a well developed albeit short budstalk. 



> Secondly If I were to place my clones to flower room would it be at all helpful if I was to use a dual spectrum HPS bulb (in terms of growth or otherwise for that matter)?


If you're talking about a combination MH/HPS lamp or a pair of mixed MH & HPS lamps, no, they wouldn't be helpful. The bluish spectrum of MH can cause buds to come up excessively leafy. Stick to plain old HPS for flowering.



Chumlie said:


> I wondering what system you think I should transfer them into for flowering.


Flood systems are simple and reliable.




> Also I just put up some mylar sheets


Mylar can cause hotspotting. It also is hard to clean and loses its reflectivity when not perfectly clean. Replace it with panda film, white side to the plants, of course.


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## Chumlie (Aug 20, 2008)

Good to hear, Im trying to make a vaporizer out of an soldering iron. Do you have any blue prints are any advice?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 20, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Good to hear, Im trying to make a vaporizer out of an soldering iron. Do you have any blue prints are any advice?


Yep, built and docmented back in 2000. 






The basic plan - and 8 years on, my kindergarten art is NO better.






calibrating the temp dial







'mazing what you can make out of a soldering iron & a pickle jar, innit.


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## iloveit (Aug 21, 2008)

So there kept in the clonebox for root development.

Thanks Al I didnt think youd have time to reply to my question there many people with queries.

Thanks again much appreciated.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 21, 2008)

iloveit said:


> So there kept in the clonebox for root development.


Yep, that's all they're doing in there. 



> Thanks Al I didnt think youd have time to reply to my question there many people with queries.
> 
> Thanks again much appreciated.


No worries. I try to get to them all, every once in a while I miss one.


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## gvega187 (Aug 21, 2008)

most random question ever, but of course ALby had a schematic and everything from 8 yrs ago when he invented the vaporizer before you were born. 

neways, I read a few pages back that you recommended hps over flouros for "mums". This is apprently due to the thick stems they will generate. 

1)will this work with red spectrum very high output flouro bulbs? 

2)if so, a 250w should cover about 8-10 moms right?


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## unity (Aug 21, 2008)

Thanks for your advise  I know the mix of rockwool and hydroton was not a great idea,lol, but the dtw was an afterthought. I will make sure to pick a more suitable medium for my next grow 
Also thanks for the co2 info, makes perfect sense 

Unity


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## Chumlie (Aug 21, 2008)

Al I've ask you about 4 or 5 questions in last 12 hours and you responded very quickly, and I say gracias el señor Al. My qestion retains to the clones (Iloveit). You put yours straight into the flowering. I want to do a sea of green aswell, so I was going to use may six plant aero pontic system to grow five right now for veg. I could not get the six one up. So anyways I was going to grow these five to a foot and half make clones of them put them into flowering to figure out sex. Then the best two out of the five I would keep mothers the rest just flower, and use the open four net pots to grow up the clones. Is this a good plan?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 21, 2008)

gvega187 said:


> most random question ever, but of course ALby had a schematic and everything from 8 yrs ago when he invented the vaporizer before you were born.


 heh, seems a bit convenient that I had that lying about. Of course, I didn't invent the vape, just made a copy. Course, when you get to my advanced age, you've done nearly everything before most people were born. 



> neways, I read a few pages back that you recommended hps over flouros for "mums". This is apprently due to the thick stems they will generate.
> 
> 1)will this work with red spectrum very high output flouro bulbs?
> 
> 2)if so, a 250w should cover about 8-10 moms right?


 Depends on how fast you need your mums to veg up after doing cuttings. Fluoros will be slow, HPS will be quicker by far.

​
  ​​ My mums under a 400HPS recover in 14 days, growing about 600mm in that time. 




unity said:


> Thanks for your advise


No worries.



Chumlie said:


> Is this a good plan?


Works for me.


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 21, 2008)

al's method ( aside from a lil cloning adventure ) works for me to a tee. i am, 6 weeks from monday, going to be back in perpetual weed albfuct style. i keep 6 mums and only take 5 or so off each one then prune them back like al's girls there....well i still cant bring myself to chop em that bad but i'm getting meaner/better all the time...just a lil thanks to you again al...your design works perfectly and as a result so does mine.


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## Chumlie (Aug 21, 2008)

How far should a 20watt fluro be away from the canopy? Mine is 4 to 5" above most of the plants, but one that is a week and half older than the rest. So it is 2" above it. Im wondering because the first set of true leaves have gray edges and the fan leaves have yellow tips. It's either that are nute burn, but I dout it cus Im using foxfarms grow big half normal solution until this week ends. What do you think?


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Switch back to what?
> 
> 80F is not horrid but you will see stretch in veg growth.
> 
> I know a guy named Stoney McDoper who tends to start plants first and build the grow room later... it doesn't work for him, either.


To my twin tube floros; check journal. I was at low 80F with them and now it goes up to 90F with HPS. The ambient room temp where box is, is usually room temp. Right now it is 75F and the growbox is 90F. I am guessing it is all sitting on the cool tube,  (That I don't have)

This box is supposed to be all veg. Then I want to build my bloom box around a digi 600HPS. I did the box first, but I built it around those floros, check my journal al, I've been working hard


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## brontobrandon1 (Aug 21, 2008)

so al will my 400 watt mh work just as good if not better than the hps??? dam if not should i return it if its too late?? 


thanks


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## newportbeach949 (Aug 21, 2008)

so should i buy another bag of hydroton to put under the rockwool again or do think if i lower the over fill drain it will work fine with the layer of hydroton it has now ?

the reason hydroton is on the other side is because i want move the plants evenly through-out the table when they get bigger in a couple weeks- thats why i have 1 light on and the other off at the moment


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 21, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> well i still cant bring myself to chop em that bad but i'm getting meaner/better all the time...


 Vegging cannabis plants are hugely tolerant of being pruned back. You could conceivably chop everything but one node and a leaf off a healthy mother- and it _will_ spring right back, whether you like it or not.  



> just a lil thanks to you again al...your design works perfectly and as a result so does mine.


 Thanks, good to hear it. 



Chumlie said:


> How far should a 20watt fluro be away from the canopy?


 Couple of kilometres would be enough, I'd think. 

Kidding, fluoros are the preferred light for seedlings and clones and for slow-vegging mums, when you don't need a lot of clones often.



> Mine is 4 to 5" above most of the plants, but one that is a week and half older than the rest. So it is 2" above it.


 Lamp to leaf spacing with fluoros can be zero. Ideally, whatever you're doing with fluoros should be 2" or less from the fluoro tube.



> Im wondering because the first set of true leaves have gray edges and the fan leaves have yellow tips.


 It's not the proximity to fluoros causing the problem, this much I'll promise you. It'd be overwatering or overfertilisation.



Kaosisglobal said:


> To my twin tube floros; check journal. I was at low 80F with them and now it goes up to 90F with HPS. The ambient room temp where box is, is usually room temp. Right now it is 75F and the growbox is 90F. I am guessing it is all sitting on the cool tube,  (That I don't have)


 ow. Gotta get that down, 32C is toooooo hot. If you must, revert to the fluoros until you get a cooltube installed. 


> This box is supposed to be all veg. Then I want to build my bloom box around a digi 600HPS. I


 Skip the 'digital' (electronic) ballast. Get an ordinary 'magnetic' (more properly called 'inductive') ballast. Electronic ballasts produce no more light from the lamp tube than an ordinary coil & core ballast, don't last nearly as long (20 year old mag ballasts are not uncommon), save only a marginal amount of power (9% savings over a mag), but cost 4-6x more than a standard ballast. 

Some months ago, I got kind of annoyed with Lumatek's sales claim of 'up to 30% greater light intensity' with their electronic ballasts. Electrically, I knew that there's no way to make a lamp tube produce more luminous output without allowing the tube to consume more than the tube mfr's rated current, which could very dramatically shorten tube life. ZO, I buggered off down to my hydro supply whse, armed with my lux meter. I set up a 600 HPS lamp in a ref, drove it with a Lumatek, checked luminous output, allowed the lamp tube to go cold and then repeated the test with a standard ballast. I wasn't too surprised to find that the output with either ballast was _*absolutely identical*_. At the time, the Lumatek 600 was fetching about $A425 while the std mag 600 ballast cost $A95. 

Save your dough, buy the old technology. Until electronic ballasts are equal to or less costly to buy than standards, give them a miss.



brontobrandon1 said:


> so al will my 400 watt mh work just as good if not better than the hps??? dam if not should i return it if its too late??


You're right, MH is normally the preferred light for vegging. I use a 400HPS because it was what I had on hand some years ago. Vegging with HPS does cause plants to be somewhat elongated compared to MH. MH produces shorter internodal spacing in veg. However, in the SoG format, a tall mum isn't such a bad thing.I cut very tall clones (~9" tall) so it's nice to have long stems on the mums to work with. Your 400MH will do just fine for vegging. 



newportbeach949 said:


> so should i buy another bag of hydroton to put under the rockwool again or do think if i lower the over fill drain it will work fine with the layer of hydroton it has now ?


I thought I saw your plants in growbags full of pellets. I would not fill your trays directly with pellets. I'd keep them in pots or growbags.

All you need be concerned about is getting the RW cubes 1/2" above the flood level, however you accomplish that, whether by increasing the depth of the pellets or lowering the flood level.


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## newportbeach949 (Aug 21, 2008)

no my plants are in 6 x 6 x 6 rockrool cubes- i put plastic over the tops of them because i was feeding from the top and didnt want the rockwool in the light,

the pellets are just keeping the plastic on so the fan doesnt blow them off, 

i will take a plastic notch off the overfill and see how this works

thank you


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## specialkayme (Aug 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You're on your own with Hempys. They keep roots submerged without oxygenation. That's a recipe for root rot. I'm glad you're comfortable with them. Rotsaruck.


As I said, that's what I'm typically comfortable with. Contrary to what most people think, you don't keep the roots submerged without oxygenation for extended periods of time. You fill the bottom 1" to 1.5" with water and wait for the plant to use it all up, and in a sense they get oxygen that way. I and many others have had no problems with root rot, even though it seems like it would invite the rot to move right in. But I'm not writing to argue or convince people to use Hempy buckets, quite the opposite actually.

The reason why I use Hempy buckets is because I don't feel comfortable relying on pumps and air stones. If I have a pump with a timer on it, I have a tendency to keep my hands off of it, and more problems arise. In addition, I may not be able to check on the plants every day. More like every other day, or every three days. Sometimes even only once a week. With Hempy buckets, it's easy to set the timer to water twice a week, and check up on it to make sure it's ok, and it's fine. The pump only uses pure water, so there arn't any Ph issues, and no nute issues either. I then water with nutes once a week. Rather simple. Something that I can't do with F&D or drip systems. But I realize that it isn't optimum. So, relying on your conventional wisdom, What method would you recomend to me Al?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 21, 2008)

newportbeach949 said:


> no my plants are in 6 x 6 x 6 rockrool cubes- i put plastic over the tops of them because i was feeding from the top and didnt want the rockwool in the light,


oh, OK. 6" cubes are pretty big, 216 cu in (3.5L), roughly equivalent in volume to the 175mm pots I use, once stuffed only with RW floc. Worked well for years. I flooded those 1x-2x/day. If you use those RW blocks as your main grow media, I'd flood them similarly, 1x/day, perhaps a 2nd flood a couple hours before lights-off with mature, vigorous plants.

The problem with mixing RW & pellets is that RW can't be watered as frequently as pellets. If the RW is below the flood line, you can only flood 1x-2x/lights-on as said, but this is not often enough for the roots which get out of the cube and knit into the pellets. 

If the RW cube is 1/2" _*above*_ the flood line, the roots will escape the cube and knit down into the pellets and can be flooded at least 5x/day, conceivably up to 1x/hr for 5min during lights-on for vigorous, mature plants. If I had my druthers with your system, I'd do it this way. More flood cycles = more root oxygenation = better productity, but the media you use must support this frequent flooding. 

Containing the pellets in growbags or pots is still a desirable thing as opposed to plants rooted in a common bed of pellets. Containers keep the rootballs of neighbouring plants from knitting and allow portability of the plants for maintenance or putting slow plants in better light.



specialkayme said:


> What method would you recomend to me Al?


Plants in pots of absorbent media, watered by a flood system. 







They get no simpler. 

Missing from SimplyHydro's diagram is an air pump & air stone/bubble curtain.


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## toast master (Aug 21, 2008)

Hey ABF , quick ? about my well water, its about 400 ppm do I include this # in my ppm or in adation to the ppm nutes. Want 1400 ppm do i make it 1850 . The faq section is still down.. thanks


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## specialkayme (Aug 21, 2008)

Fair enough Al. Your medium of choice would be?


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## sparkafire (Aug 21, 2008)

Hi ABF! One question, my mums tub started out at 1400 ppm and i have 3 days to go before swap out and i am at 900 ppm is this normal? I am running 2 week intervals. 
Also why i have your attention what do you think about these clones do you think i could get away with potting them and sticking them with the others i really need to start another batch and they are jacking me up!?

Thanks in advance 

SParky


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 21, 2008)

toast master said:


> my well water, its about 400 ppm do I include this # in my ppm or in adation to the ppm nutes. Want 1400 ppm do i make it 1850


 If you have 400ppm out of the tap and want 1400ppm nute strength, mix for 1800. 

You'd be wise to get a water analysis. Check with your local university or County Extension agent. Be on the lookout for high levels of salinity (NaCl). That's the only real problem for using the water in a hydro system. Other commonly found dissolved minerals like Fe, Mg & Ca are OK. All are nutrients and you'd have to add them if they were not there.



specialkayme said:


> Fair enough Al. Your medium of choice would be?


Depends on how you want to work with the op. 

If you are a stoned slacker like me, you'll select an absorbent medium. The more water in the medium, the more safety margin in case of pump (or grower ) failure. Rockwool holds the most water but can't be flooded often. Fytocell & Perlite hold less water but can be flooded much more often, 3-4x per lights on. Pellets hold the least water but can be flooded most frequently, exposing the roots to oxygenated nute solution more frequently than with other media. 

Lightweight media like RW, Fytocell & perlite are easiest to dispose of. Pellets are heavy and can split rubbish bags if you overload them. Can make a real mess at kerbside. Pellets can theoretically be re-used but they have to be cleaned FULLY of old root matter and then sterilised (soak in water with 10ml/L 50% H2O2 for 24h). Failure to totally clean & sterilise re-used pellets can transfer root disease from crop to crop. Discard pellets that have a crust of nute salts on them.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 21, 2008)

sparkafire said:


> Hi ABF! One question, my mums tub started out at 1400 ppm and i have 3 days to go before swap out and i am at 900 ppm is this normal? I am running 2 week intervals.


Completely normal, especially if you have been topping up the tank with plain water as the level has fallen since mixing day. That's about the rate of nutrient comsumption I'd expect. Your res may be a little small for the number of plants it is supporting. How many plants and how big is the rez?



> Also why i have your attention what do you think about these clones do you think i could get away with potting them and sticking them with the others i really need to start another batch and they are jacking me up!?


No, these don't have enough roots just yet. 

Aerocloners should have a submersible aquarium water heater set for about 28-30C to speed things along. Of course, due to that warm of a temp, dissolved O2 won't stay in the water long. You need constant oxygenation from a pump & stone and should be treating the aerocloner water with 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days to both add oxygen and inhibit pathogen growth. 

If you're doing all this and still only getting this level of root development after 7-10 days, let me know. About all you can do right now is wait for this batch to get some more root development and hold off on doing your next batch of cuttings. 

Aerocloners have a fixed number of sites to put cuttings. If you were working with RW cubes on a heat mat in a clonebox, you miight find numbers of clones you can support at one time is a bit more flexible.


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## specialkayme (Aug 21, 2008)

What's your take on cococoir as a medium?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 21, 2008)

I'm not fond of organic materials like coir or peat in a recirculating hydro system. They can support mould growth and may decompose or fragment with exposure to H2O2. The bits can get loose in the nutes and can foul pumps if not contained.


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## specialkayme (Aug 21, 2008)

Interesting. I didn't know that about coco. 

Rockwool seems the easiest. Would watering once a day be sufficient? more? less? My only concern with rockwool would be with disposing of it. Kinda makes me a little paranoid.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 21, 2008)

Yes, for a quantity of rockwool sufficient to give enough space for the rootmass of a mature, vigorous plant, watering 1x/day would be sufficient. 

Disposal is easy. You can either bag it while still damp or put the pot with rootball in front of a fan for a few days to dry it out & make it lighter. Just bag it up like the rest of your ordinary rubbish. Make sure it is free of any identifiable leaf material while bagging. Leaf waste should be buried or composted.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yes, for a quantity of rockwool sufficient to give enough space for the rootmass of a mature, vigorous plant, watering 1x/day would be sufficient.


That quantity would be between 2-4L. A 175mm x 175mm tall pot is about 4.21L. A 140mm dia x 140mm tall pot is about 2.15L. 

Handy link: solid cylinder calculator


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## sparkafire (Aug 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Completely normal, especially if you have been topping up the tank with plain water as the level has fallen since mixing day. That's about the rate of nutrient comsumption I'd expect. Your res may be a little small for the number of plants it is supporting. How many plants and how big is the rez?


My rez is a bit small 15 gal for 7 plants i am only going to run 3 or 4 mums at the most so i will be ok i think. 




Al B. Fuct said:


> No, these don't have enough roots just yet.


GTK i will wait a few more days it will be 2 weeks on these guys everyone else went in 8 days. Its just a few of the mums that are throwing off clones that are doing this to me. Lets hope they are males!! 



Al B. Fuct said:


> Aerocloners should have a submersible aquarium water heater set for about 28-30C to speed things along. Of course, due to that warm of a temp, dissolved O2 won't stay in the water long. You need constant oxygenation from a pump & stone and should be treating the aerocloner water with 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days to both add oxygen and inhibit pathogen growth.


I need to get some H2o2 i have an air stone already in and my temps are running 28C ( had to Google that LOL) already. 



Al B. Fuct said:


> Aerocloners have a fixed number of sites to put cuttings. If you were working with RW cubes on a heat mat in a clonebox, you miight find numbers of clones you can support at one time is a bit more flexible.


That is why your the man!!!! I will get to that point someday i am working on it. Needing to set up my clone box. but for right now this is all i have. I tried 2 times with RW and failed miserably so i built this. 
Some day i want to grow up and be just like you!!!kiss-ass
Thanks for the time 

Sparky


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## Chumlie (Aug 21, 2008)

It can't be over ferting cus Im doing half the recomended, but I do water every other 15min. The marijuana bible said to use regular distilled water for the first week, but I don't think that would do anything. Don't know if its right or not.


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## bigal10 (Aug 21, 2008)

Al Im not quite sure but I think some of the my plants are begining to show signs of spider mites. I was looking at the plants that are in the cubes still and at the bottom of the cubes i found microscopic tiny little bugs that that have a reddish, black dots on them . Are these ok for my plants if not what should I do. I inspected the actual plants and there are no eggs under my leaves or anywhere around the mothers from what I can see. there are only off a few clones that I bought from the medical dispensary. I can only see a bunch concentrated around the roots of the clones which have not been transplanted into any medium yet.


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## bigal10 (Aug 21, 2008)

I think it might be fungus gnats instead of mites. They seem to only be around the rockwool cubes going for the roots. I prbably have been overwatering my cubes in the clonebox keeping the enverionment perfect for them. I notice that a small corner of the rockwool has started to turn a greenish moldy look. This has to be due to overwatering my clones in the cubect correct?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 22, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> I do water every other 15min.


 In what sort of watering system/medium?



bigal10 said:


> Al Im not quite sure but I think some of the my plants are begining to show signs of spider mites. I was looking at the plants that are in the cubes still and at the bottom of the cubes i found microscopic tiny little bugs that that have a reddish, black dots on them .









Mites. Get rid of the affected plant/s ASAP and get some Avid to treat the rest of the crop. Clean & vac in & around the grow room. *Now. *



bigal10 said:


> I think it might be fungus gnats instead of mites.


You correctly described red spider mite in the last post. You probably have some gnats as well. *Fear* the mites and act *ASAP*. They can take out the whole grow. Gnats ain't so bad, get some sticky card traps to manage those. 

Next time you buy clones, take a jeweler's loupe or strong magnifier to inspect before you buy. It's smart to treat any introduced plants with a miticide like Avid and quarantine them for a few days, to avoid bringing in any more pests. 



> I notice that a small corner of the rockwool has started to turn a greenish moldy look. This has to be due to overwatering my clones in the cubect correct?


Yep, that and exposing the damp medium surface to light. Cut a disc of panda film with a hole for the stem and a slot to allow fitting it and use it to block light from the area growing algae. Hit the algae with some H2O2 to kill what's there.


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 22, 2008)

I am a beginner to growing and i want to know what hydroponic system dhould i start with dwc or a waterfarm


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 22, 2008)

LBS OF DANK said:


> I am a beginner to growing and i want to know what hydroponic system dhould i start with dwc or a waterfarm


Avoid kits. You'll save money buying only what you need. 

New growers are best served by plants in pots of absorbent media like rockwool, Fytocell or perlite, watered by a flood system. 







Floods are dead simple to set up and operate. Nothing to clog, one moving part, very little plumbing. Floods are much more forgiving of watering failure than any other method. If plants are in pots of absorbent media, there's enough water stored in the media to get the plants safely through a pump or timer failure for a day or so if you forget to look in on the system. Also, if anything leaks in a flood system, with the reservoir being below the tray, the leak is most likely to drip into the res tank. 

I would not recommend DWC or aero for a first time grower. DWC in particular has an Achilles' heel. Since DWC keeps roots submerged, they rely on 24/7 airflow. A pump or power failure lasting more than a few hours can kill every plant in a DWC op if you don't have a spare air pump or backup AC power to run the air pump. 

Advanced growers may prefer aero or DWC because they are able to get more oxygen to the roots than floods with plants in pots of absorbent media, but the production difference is fractional. Clay pellet media can also be used, which due to low absorbency and large air gaps between pellets, tolerates very frequent watering, thus approximating the performance of aero or DWC. Pellets don't hold much reserve water, but are more tolerant of pump/power failures than aero or DWC. 

New growers need simplicity and they don't get any simpler than a flood system. Advanced growers will appreciate the portability of plants in pots. They can be picked up and moved around for maintenance or to put slow plants in better light positions.


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## Chumlie (Aug 22, 2008)

It's aeroponics with net baskets fill with expanded clay with 1" rockwool cube.


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## Lobo69 (Aug 22, 2008)

Hey,
Assuming I am using the rockwool floc in the bottom, fyto/perlite in the top of the pots, Should I flood my pots to within 1/2 inch of the 40mm plug in the top of the pot, not touching the rockwool with water? I'm guessing if you are flooding 3x a day with this setup that the rockwool in the bottom would not hold too much water?


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## HAZEOHOLIC (Aug 22, 2008)

Hello AL 
I would like to know your opinion on which way I should go with a setup like yours I live in an apartment and can't use closet space so I have to build an enclosure to hide my grow from family,friends,etc......
would love to run a 5x5 or 6x6 tray only one thought what size box do I need and how would you rotate the grow? I know it's a lot of questions and appreciate your insight on this.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 22, 2008)

> Chumlie said:
> 
> 
> > Im wondering because the first set of true leaves have gray edges and the fan leaves have yellow tips. It's either that are nute burn, but I dout it cus Im using foxfarms grow big half normal solution until this week ends. What do you think?
> ...


What's your nute strength in ppm? pH? Air temp in the room (no guessing, numbers from your pk-mem thermo and pH & ppm meters only, pls)?



Lobo69 said:


> Hey,
> Assuming I am using the rockwool floc in the bottom, fyto/perlite in the top of the pots, Should I flood my pots to within 1/2 inch of the 40mm plug in the top of the pot, not touching the rockwool_ [cube] _with water?


Yep. 


> I'm guessing if you are flooding 3x a day with this setup that the rockwool in the bottom would not hold too much water?


Should be OK, that's what's happening in my op as we speak.



HAZEOHOLIC said:


> Hello AL
> I would like to know your opinion on which way I should go with a setup like yours I live in an apartment and can't use closet space so I have to build an enclosure to hide my grow from family,friends,etc......


Don't try to hide it from your mom. Moms know everything. 



> would love to run a 5x5 or 6x6 tray only one thought what size box do I need


Larger than the trays! 



> and how would you rotate the grow?


Seen this? *Get a harvest every 2 weeks*

You basically feed in 1/4 of the number of clones the flowering area can hold and take out 1/4 the room capacity in matured plants on the far end of the pipeline every 2 weeks.


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## gvega187 (Aug 22, 2008)

I have questions about flood and drain sir :

I will be using clay pellets flooding for 15 mins 5x a day. 

1)have you used pebbles before in the trays? 

2)could i afford to water 8x a day? I know from experience pebbles dry out VERY quick...and no flooding at night time with pebbles or mebe just 1/2 as much?

3)should this watering schedule work?

4)For those 15 minutes the water level should never be stopped right? It should just take 15 minutes flood cycle to raise and then drain back right? Or do I flood up to the top, which should take the whole 15 mins and then drain.

5)I use rapid rooter plugs instead of RW. I cant anticipate any problems with this, but I know its not what you use. Any other suggestions related to this? 

Thanks for takin time to reply every time


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 22, 2008)

I'm guessing if you are flooding 3x a day with this setup that the rockwool in the bottom would not hold too much water? Should be OK, that's what's happening in my op as we speak.

now hold on al...3x per day...did something change in the op? if so, why?
i'm running all 4 at 1400ppm once a day per lights on as per your set up.....for the love of god you gotta send out newsletters or flyers or something....some of us can't think for ourselves!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 22, 2008)

gvega187 said:


> I will be using clay pellets flooding for 15 mins 5x a day.


 Shorten the flood time to only that needed to raise the flood level to the overflow. Should be only about 3-5 mins. 



> 1)have you used pebbles before in the trays?


 yep, switched from pellets because they were heavy and hard to dispose of.



> 2)could i afford to water 8x a day? I know from experience pebbles dry out VERY quick...and no flooding at night time with pebbles or mebe just 1/2 as much?
> 
> 3)should this watering schedule work?


 With vigorous, mature plants in pellets, you can flood to the overflow 1x/hr for 3-5 mins, last flood no later than 1 hr before lights-off. Don't flood during lights-off, not only no need for it but also can cause probs. Water only when the plants can take up water, which is during lights-on.


> 4)For those 15 minutes the water level should never be stopped right? It should just take 15 minutes flood cycle to raise and then drain back right? Or do I flood up to the top, which should take the whole 15 mins and then drain.


 Too long. It should only take 3-5 mins (tops) to fill the tray to the overflow level. 



> 5)I use rapid rooter plugs instead of RW. I cant anticipate any problems with this, but I know its not what you use. Any other suggestions related to this?


 I'm not fond of organic materials in a recirculating hydro system. RR plugs are made of peat. They can support mould as well as can decompose when exposed to H2O2. This may cause them to fragment. The bits may wash through your pellets and into the res, possibly fouling the pump. 



bugsrnme said:


> now hold on al...3x per day...did something change in the op? if so, why?


When I switched from pots stuffed fully with RW floc to mainly with Fytocell, I was able to increase the watering frequency due to the high air content of Fytocell. The small layer of RW in the bottom of each of my pots is only there to keep the Fytocell from falling out of the drain holes and to keep the pots from floating. 

Yes, with 3x flood/day, the relatively thin (compared to the remaining volume of the pot filled with Fytocell) RW layer is oversaturated, but newly introduced plants don't have roots knitted down to the bottom of the pot, so they don't care. Once the clone has developed a bit and has grown roots down to the bottom of the pot, they are well developed enough to take a significant amt of water out of the RW by the next time the system floods, preventing any overwatering or root rot problems.


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## Chumlie (Aug 22, 2008)

I don't have a ppm meter,(way, way to much money) so that I don't know. My ph is 6 usually a little bit lower but I accidentaly put the wrong water in this week. The room temp is usually77 to 80 f, but when Im not here it sometimes reache 85. Can not work on this there nothing I can do about the high temps. Not sure what pk-mem is.


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 22, 2008)

well i'll be goddamned....you horrible,horrible man!!! 
you weren't even gonna tell anybody......this is the first i've heard of this. i'm only doing it once.....so i should bump it up huh?


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 22, 2008)

i have a 400 watt hps i still need some good lights for my veg i was thinking the 2 foot t5s from htg supply for 69 dollars are those good or should i get a cfl 125 watts need help with my new grow setup


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 22, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> I don't have a ppm meter,(way, way to much money) so that I don't know.


OK, sorry, I can't help you any further until you have the right metering and measurement gear.



> My ph is 6


Measured with what?



> The room temp is usually77 to 80 f, but when Im not here it sometimes reache 85. Can not work on this there nothing I can do about the high temps. Not sure what *pk-mem* is.


Without a *peak memory* thermometer, you're only guessing. 

If you can't measure it, you can't manage it. 

If you can't keep your temps down, you will ALWAYS have heat related problems. 

Seriously, you need to _*KNOW*_ not _*GUESS *_what's going on in your op. My guesses are no better than yours. 

Trying to run a hydro op without proper metering is like trying to sort out an electrical problem without a voltmeter. 

When you get the right gear, feel free to ask me for assistance. Until then, there's nothing I can do for you. 



bugsrnme said:


> well i'll be goddamned....you horrible,horrible man!!!
> you weren't even gonna tell anybody......this is the first i've heard of this. i'm only doing it once.....so i should bump it up huh?


WTF are you talking about, bugs? Lost me.


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 22, 2008)

i have two 3x3 setups 1 for veg and one for budding.i need advice with lights,vent,good nutes, i could get the ebb and flow fittings,pump,res and tray no problemif i need anything else let me know


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## Chumlie (Aug 22, 2008)

I believe I have the right thermometer, and measure ph with hydroponic store chemical tester. The one where you collect water then add some drips and chart it by the color change. I would get tds or ec meter if I could find one for about 
$50. Yet all I've seen are $300 and up.


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## HAZEOHOLIC (Aug 22, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Don't try to hide it from your mom. Moms know everything.
> 
> Larger than the trays!
> 
> ...


 Lol I live alone is that family and friend sometimes come over so with the enclosure people would just think it's a closet or cabinet.
OK larger then the tray how much larger to rum a 1000 watt air cooled and of course good vent.
Also with one big tray rotating 1/4 can the tray be flooded with the same nutes as all the pots in different stages. Thanks alot Al for helping out


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 22, 2008)

anybody got some good advice for me


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 22, 2008)

LBS OF DANK said:


> i have two 3x3 setups 1 for veg and one for budding.i need advice with lights,vent,good nutes,


 lights- figure on 50W/sq ft of HPS lighting. 
ventilation- the exhaust system needs to be able to shift the room air volume in about 3 mins, so a 500cu ft room needs a minimum 167CFM blower. If this is not sufficient to keep the temps down, use cooltubes on your HPS lighting.
nutes- most any commercially made hydro nutes will do. Joe's are as good as Jim's for the most part. Name brand nutes are usually more consistent in quality than those from small makers (like your local hydro shop which may mix up something in the back room, but I've seen house-brand nute raise fine plants.



> anybody got some good advice for me


You posted your first request for info at 12:46pm, this request at 1:09pm. You don't think you're being impatient or anything, _*do*_ you? :/ 



> i could get the ebb and flow fittings,pump,res and tray no problemif i need anything else let me know


 You need to familiarise yourself with the basic necessary equipment to run a grow. SimplyHydro's resource is good for that. PLEASE do your own research on the basics before asking for help. Nothing annoys me more than someone who won't do their own legwork, instead expecting me to do all the basics for them. 



Chumlie said:


> I believe I have the right thermometer, and measure ph with hydroponic store chemical tester. The one where you collect water then add some drips and chart it by the color change. I would get tds or ec meter if I could find one for about
> $50. Yet all I've seen are $300 and up.


 You need to shop better. Lots of ppm meters around for less than $300. Try the Bluelab TDS Truncheon. 

Colour-match pH kits just don't git it in a hydroponic op, probably OK for your swimming pool... They're inaccurate on a good day, not a lot better than guessing. 

If you have the right thermo, you know the max high & low temps because the thermo saves those peak values. 



HAZEOHOLIC said:


> Lol I live alone is that family and friend sometimes come over so with the enclosure people would just think it's a closet or cabinet.


You're kinda on your own with specifically how to keep the noseynellies out of your op. About all I can suggest is to lock the door!



> OK larger then the tray how much larger to rum a 1000 watt air cooled and of course good vent.


The room can be a tent made of pandafilm which is only large enough to fit the tray in, just need to plan to have about 2m vertical height to work with. In such a space, cooltubes will help keep temps under control. Ventilation system should be able to shift the tent/room airmass volume in about 3 mins. 


> Also with one big tray rotating 1/4 can the tray be flooded with the same nutes as all the pots in different stages.


All my tanks run flowering nutes at 1400, except for wk6, when plants get dosed with Canna's PK1314. If you plan for about 5L of tank volume per plant , a single tank will be pretty big. Also, with a single tank, you can't do stuff like applying a PK additive for wk 6 plants without dosing all the plants. I used 4x 900mm^2 trays (23 plants each) because the biggest el-cheapo storage tubs I could get were 125L.


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## HAZEOHOLIC (Aug 22, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You're kinda on your own with specifically how to keep the noseynellies out of your op. About all I can suggest is to lock the door!
> 
> The room can be a tent made of pandafilm which is only large enough to fit the tray in, just need to plan to have about 2m vertical height to work with. In such a space, cooltubes will help keep temps under control. Ventilation system should be able to shift the tent/room airmass volume in about 3 mins.
> All my tanks run flowering nutes at 1400, except for wk6, when plants get dosed with Canna's PK1314. If you plan for about 5L of tank volume per plant , a single tank will be pretty big. Also, with a single tank, you can't do stuff like applying a PK additive for wk 6 plants without dosing all the plants. I used 4x 900mm^2 trays (23 plants each) because the biggest el-cheapo storage tubs I could get were 125L.


 Yea thanks AL your right but of course it will be under lock and key lol

Yea no problem height isn'st an issue have a 8 feet celing max, also would you think running 4 sperate trays in a 6x6 grow area would work.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 22, 2008)

HAZEOHOLIC said:


> would you think running 4 sperate trays in a 6x6 grow area would work.


Yes, that'd work, but be sure to plan for access space. If you put 4x 3'x3' trays in a 6'x6' room, you have no space to get between them and especially under them to do tank maintenance. 

I'm guessing you want to put a 6x6 tent in the middle of a larger than 6x6 room, which is a bit more serviceable as you can get at them from the perimeter.


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## Me22 (Aug 22, 2008)

By FAR the best grow guide ever written... Has answered soooooo many questions. I log on just to read this thread and learn new things every other day or so. Keep it comin! 

Thanks!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 22, 2008)

You're welcome. Happy I can be of assistance.


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## Me22 (Aug 22, 2008)

ps... I read alot about the vent fans you all are discussing. Why not look at H-depot...

Search Results for duct fan

They are pretty cheap and deff. would get the job done for you. 500cfm for $36? not to bad i'd say. I installed one to use to pull some of the heat away from my wood stove in the basement. Works great and blows out hot air in the winter harder then my House unit. Although the house unit is heating the entire house. It's not to bad of a fan and has worked for 5 yrs or so now.


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## KidCreole (Aug 22, 2008)

no i dont live with mom, but i still have a limited supply of cash so i cant create the biggest grow room, but whats the smallest hps i could invest in and yeild a sizable amount of product without killing my electricity bill? I dont need the wonderful neighborhood police snooping around my house nahmean?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 22, 2008)

Me22 said:


> 500cfm for $36? not to bad i'd say.


 Yep, those will work fine. 

Keep in mind I'm in Australia and don't exactly pop over to shop US hdwe stores too often.  



KidCreole said:


> whats the smallest hps i could invest in and yeild a sizable amount of product without killing my electricity bill?


A 400 HPS is a very fine light for a self-supply op, doesn't cost much to run. Shouldn't be too hard to get 3oz every 2 weeks out of a 12 flowering SoG plant op, harvesting 4 plants every 2 weeks. You'll need at least 2 mums in their own space vegging away and 4-8 clones setting root at any given time, best 4 clones get flowered, good but spare clones can be replacement mums, the rest are compost. 



> I dont need the wonderful neighborhood police snooping around my house nahmean?


The cops can't tell how much power you use and can't see through your walls. Turn down the paranoia. Be MUCH more worried about nosey neighbours who notice scents and fan noise. Maintain good information security. No one on earth needs to know you're growing but you.


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## gvega187 (Aug 22, 2008)

keeping the pebbles completely dry all night would not harm the roots?


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## gvega187 (Aug 22, 2008)

also i realized 2 sizes of pebbles exist now. I have used the 8mm-16mm in the past. They also carry 16mm-25mm pebbles. Which would be ideal for flood and drain or does it not matter?


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 22, 2008)

should i use my hps thru both stages for my first grow or get t 5s or a cfl, i aso want to have mothers so i can start the cloning process and get a 1/4 pd every 2 mos or so


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 22, 2008)

the t 5s from htg are a good price and r at 10,000-lumens i really dont know how many lumens the 125 watt cfl are but they are full spectrum and see they work good or i can just get a 150 watt hps but will that be 2 strong 4 my mother and clones


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 22, 2008)

gvega187 said:


> keeping the pebbles completely dry all night would not harm the roots?


 They won't dry out in lights-off. The plants stop transpiring water and there's no heat from lights to dry them out. 



gvega187 said:


> also i realized 2 sizes of pebbles exist now. I have used the 8mm-16mm in the past. They also carry 16mm-25mm pebbles. Which would be ideal for flood and drain or does it not matter?


 I think I'd stick with the 8-16mm. 



LBS OF DANK said:


> should i use my hps thru both stages for my first grow or get t 5s or a cfl, i aso want to have mothers so i can start the cloning process and get a 1/4 pd every 2 mos or so


Fluoros for clones, HPS or Mh for veg. You can get away with vegging the mums with fluoros but recovery after a pass of cuttings will be much slower. Flower with HPS only. 



LBS OF DANK said:


> the t 5s from htg are a good price and r at 10,000-lumens i really dont know how many lumens the 125 watt cfl are but they are full spectrum and see they work good or i can just get a 150 watt hps but will that be 2 strong 4 my mother and clones


A 150 HPS would be great for mums. Use fluoros for clones.


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## ceestyle (Aug 22, 2008)

ABF, your patience is truly admirable. A public service, I say.


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## gvega187 (Aug 22, 2008)

second that, dont know how u answer all these quesetions...especially when it is the 30th time u heard it. Thanks


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 22, 2008)

250 watt mh or 400 watt mh??? at htg they are only a 2 dollar difference so which one would u recommend for the veg stage im asking all these newb questions because im waitn 4 my w.w. and purps seeds to come and i do not want to mess my grow up i got the space. i set up a frame dividing 2 3x3 areas and i got a closet for the clones i want to keep my mothers with my veg stage room is that possible? I also want to make two ebb n flow systems like i was shown earlier one for vegging one for budding and im gonna get a daisy cloner for my clones or just go basic with a tray and humidome al b help me out man


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## specialkayme (Aug 22, 2008)

Hey Al, just wondering in your opinion how much vertical space is necesary for a SOG grow with a 250 watt HPS? i.e. assuming 12 inches for the container, then how high do the plants usually get + how much space between the plants and the 250 + the space of the light itself = your wonderful estimate. Any ideas?


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 22, 2008)

the reason y im thinking mh is because 150 hps is the spectrum just for the budding i was reading up on it and it will make my plants to get tall and skinny and i want a good veg state for my plants they r good strains


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## Chumlie (Aug 22, 2008)

yea I got the right thermo, Hey check this out, is this a good one or not?
NUTRIENT TRUNCHEON METER HYDROPONICS WAND EC/PPM/CF on eBay, also Flea Remedies, Dogs, Pet Supplies, Home Garden (end time 23-Aug-08 12:46:18 BST)


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## davidgrimm (Aug 22, 2008)

First off, THANK YOU very much Al for the postings that you do. Over the last week, I have read, in their entirety, your cloning made easy, 2 week harvest and this one and they all convey an immense amount of information. To paraphrase one of your early posts... 

'Read the posts and chances are your question will be answered'.

and, sure enough, every time a post made me think of another question, that new question/thought was addressed later. Thanks again! 

But I can't remember seeing this info.

I started a soil grow (one 90 days ago and another 60 days ago). I think I made every mistake possible since then lol. Looking back on what I did and what happened reminds me of the old Keystone Cops short flicks. But it was a great learning experience. Anyway I think I now know a little bit about which way I want to grow. I plan to do exactly as your operation is and am trying to decide on what clones to buy. 

I live in a northern cal area where the medical marijuana numbers for your operation are legal, as far as the local law is (<100 sq ft canopy area) and lower than the DEA's threshold for action (<100 plants) so consequently I can buy any amount of numerous varieties. (I am currently growing cheese, chem dog and GDP). 

What I need is to see what the recommended flowering time is for the different varieties. I tried using the search function on this website to no avail (probably my fault, I know). Can anyone suggest where I can go to look up that info ? I need to make sure the strain that I choose is one that suitable for an indoor grow and is ready for harvest within 8 weeks. (The dispensaries around here love Cheese, Chem Dog, Purple Urkel, Purple Nubian and of course GDP)

Thank you all.


----------



## Chumlie (Aug 22, 2008)

Al thanks again. I know you've gone over this before, but I can't find it exactly the correct measure in the past pages of this thread. There that meter in my above post then there is this one tohttp://cgi.ebay.com/Hanna-TDS-METER-PPM-Water-TESTER-On-SALE-NOW_W0QQitemZ170251260179QQihZ007QQcategoryZ20684QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I don't know if the ppms on that go high enough so im wondering before I choose one what ppms you use for seeds/seedling, veg, and I think you said 1400 for flowering. This is stupid question, but I need to know Im thinking right. You test your nutreints in a cup off to the side before mixing? using the tap water no filtering. Using aerosystems I've read people.

1. Just using plan water for the first two weeks
2. Mixing in half solution, one quater solution.
I think my is working except for that little nute burn 2 1/2" in 5 day olds. Do you no what wind burn looks like?


----------



## leojapsky (Aug 23, 2008)

looks delicious


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 23, 2008)

ceestyle said:


> ABF, your patience is truly admirable. A public service, I say.





gvega187 said:


> second that, dont know how u answer all these quesetions...especially when it is the 30th time u heard it. Thanks


 Thanks and thanks 



LBS OF DANK said:


> 250 watt mh or 400 watt mh??? at htg they are only a 2 dollar difference so which one would u recommend for the veg stage
> 
> [...]
> 
> i want to keep my mothers with my veg stage room is that possible? I also want to make two ebb n flow systems like i was shown earlier one for vegging one for budding and im gonna get a daisy cloner for my clones or just go basic with a tray and humidome al b help me out man


 Yes, you can share veg space with the mums. Mind, I don't know why you're wasting floorspace on vegging plants that you will later flower. If you grow SoG style, you only need a clonebox, a small veg space for mums and then your flowering area. No space is given to vegging clones that will later be flowered. SoG also cuts 2-3 weeks out of the time from cutting a clone to harvesting bud. If you insist on vegging plants you will late flower, get the 400. If your senses return soon and you decide all you need to veg is mums, get the 250.



Chumlie said:


> yea I got the right thermo, Hey check this out, is this a good one or not?


 You've succeeded in finding a Chinese knock-off of the real deal. 






_*the genuine Bluelab article*_






_*the fraud!*_

I bet Bluelab would like to see this...

Avoid the fake! You'll get what you pay for. 

Green's Horticulture has the real thing for about 60 squid. Prices vary, shop around. 



davidgrimm said:


> First off, THANK YOU very much Al for the postings that you do.


 No worries. 



> What I need is to see what the recommended flowering time is for the different varieties.
> [...]
> Can anyone suggest where I can go to look up that info ? I need to make sure the strain that I choose is one that suitable for an indoor grow and is ready for harvest within 8 weeks.


 Check with the seedbanks. 



> I tried using the search function on this website to no avail (probably my fault, I know).


 Not just you. I can't find things I've written only recently with the search function. 



Chumlie said:


> I don't know if the ppms on that go high enough


Doesn't. You need to measure up to 2000ppm. Also, it is not waterproof. This meter will last approximately 6-8 weeks. 

The last time I saw inside one of these Hanna pen meters, they were using screw-compression connections to tie the sensing electrode to the main circuit board. The lack of waterproofing gaskets means this meter's innards WILL get wet, soon after the first use. The screw-compression connectors will corrode with exposure to acidic and corrosive nute solutions. This will cause the meter to fail in about 8 weeks, however, it will also _immediately_ cause it to be inaccurate. This meter is usually sold as 'disposable.' Avoid this meter (and any other Hanna product, for that matter).


----------



## stucklikechuck (Aug 23, 2008)

hey al, i just copied and pasted this from my post. i know you can help me out!


*huge swing in pH, what could be causing this?* 
permalink

a brief intro:

i am running a recirculating system using 6" rockwool cubes. i have 35 plants in a 4'x8' table with a built in 40 gallon resevoir. i am using cutting edge solution nutes with the following additives: uncle john, mag amp, plant amp, sweet, hygrozime, Van De Zwaan Roots Excelurator. i have a res chiller and a co2 setup. i have 2x1000w MH bulbs in a cooltube and a light mover. water temp is 66-68 and room temp is 76-78 (78-86 with co2 enrichment). i do a weekly res change on sundays and this is my 2nd week of vegging. i was using 50% nutes (33% on the van de zwaan) and for the second week bumped it to 75% nutes with 50% on van de zwaan.

i use tap water which is 7.0 and 80ppm which has been sitting for 24hrs and i add my nutes and pH to 5.5. 

here is my problem:
i checked the pH yesterday (Thursday) and it jumped to 6.8. i dumped the nutes out of the res and adjusted the pH to 5.5 and put the nute water back in. today i checked it and the pH was 4.7! i am pretty sure my hana combo pH ppm meter is accurate as i calibrated it 3 times yesterday and once today. can someone help me out please? thanks!!!!!


----------



## stucklikechuck (Aug 23, 2008)

oh another thing:
i saw this comment on an info sheet for shooting powder:

'Contrary to what you might have heard with other nutrients, never use an oxygen pump in the nutrient container or in the growth table. This may have serious consequences for the stability of the nutrients.'


is this true?!? i use a diffuser on my table, is that a bad thing?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 23, 2008)

stucklikechuck said:


> here is my problem:
> i checked the pH yesterday (Thursday) and it jumped to 6.8. i dumped the nutes out of the res and adjusted the pH to 5.5 and put the nute water back in. today i checked it and the pH was 4.7! i am pretty sure my hana combo pH ppm meter is accurate as i calibrated it 3 times yesterday and once today. can someone help me out please? thanks!!!!!


pH fluctuations can be caused by pathogens in the system. Treat with H2O2 50% grade @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days

However, you have such a _*miasma*_ of 'magic sauces' in there that damn near anything's possible. Does your hydro shop guy chuckle and rub his hands together when he sees you coming? 99% of magic sauces contain mainly water and profit, but the profit is squeezed out (of your wallet) before you get the jug of magic sauce out of the shop.

I'd stop using _*ALL*_ of that but nutes & H2O2. 

When the Hanna meter breaks (won't be long now...), replace it with separate pH & EC meters. pH meter electrodes last 2 years then must be replaced. If your pH meter does not have a user replaceable electrode, you must send the unit to be serviced. pH meter electrodes must also be stored damp. If not, they will fail prematurely and their readings may be errant.



stucklikechuck said:


> oh another thing:
> i saw this comment on an info sheet for shooting powder:
> 
> 'Contrary to what you might have heard with other nutrients, never use an oxygen pump in the nutrient container or in the growth table. This may have serious consequences for the stability of the nutrients.'
> ...


'shooting powder'?! WTF?

If any nutrient maker told me not to aerate a tank, I'd buy other nutes. I've never heard of a nutrient that was incompatible with aeration. Every other makers' nutes work fine with aeration, why not theirs? Aeration is highly desirable for root development and thus vigorous growth. It's high levels of O2 to the roots that makes hydroponics work so much better than soil.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 23, 2008)

> i dumped the nutes out of the res and adjusted the pH to 5.5 and put the nute water back in


Forgive me, but _*what *_did you do? Dumped the tanks... and adjusted pH... of what? Then you put the stuff you dumped out back in? whaaa?

5.5 is too low, BTW. You'll begin to see some nutrient lockout at 5.5. Shoot for 5.8.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 23, 2008)

one thing while I'm thinking of it... it's really quite surprising how LITTLE you need to grow great dope with hydroponics. Nutes and pathogen control, pH adjustment as needed. That's all. No bloom blaster, bud lead, monster hooey, bee semen or other madness are needed. P & K supplements might be needed in late flowering, but are optional. You'll still get nice dense nugs if the room conditions are right (lots of light, effective ventilation & temp control to 24-26C).

Many growers buy magic sauces off the shelf after having a read of the labels, which are usually long on oblique or vague benefit statements (of course, they *can't* say 'makes your cannabis plants yield more bud!' and it's a good thing too because it probably isn't duplicatable or corroboratable) and daaaaaaaamn short on actual ingredients. 

Incidentally, don't depend on your local hydro shop clerk for advice on magic sauces. If s/he really knew what they were talking about, they'd not be hawking magic sauces at minimum wage for a crust- they'd be running productive grow ops.


----------



## specialkayme (Aug 23, 2008)

Hey Al, just wondering in your opinion how much vertical space is necesary for a SOG grow with a 250 watt HPS? i.e. assuming 12 inches for the container, then how high do the plants usually get + how much space between the plants and the 250 + the space of the light itself = your wonderful estimate. Any ideas?


----------



## LBS OF DANK (Aug 23, 2008)

alright AL B im gonna try and do like your two week program and go sog.im also gonna try 2 build a ebb n flow system, if u didnt tell me to try n build it i probably wouldve spent 200 bucks and bought an econojet. 1 ? if i get a 2x2 planter 7 inches high can i use 10 gall rubbermaid or it needs 2 be a bigger res then from there just connect tubing to the fittings and pump. plug the pump in the timer then i got my own system. is it that easy???


----------



## LBS OF DANK (Aug 23, 2008)

the reason y i was thinking dwc cause i thought it was the cheapest being all u need is 5 gallon bucket mesh pot/lid and a air pump i could make 4


----------



## LBS OF DANK (Aug 23, 2008)

is a 185 cfm active air blower good for taking out my hot air for my 400 watt hps????


----------



## gvega187 (Aug 23, 2008)

dam al, I just realized to make the pebbles work in your system I would need 3 more of those expensive CAP timers. Cos flooding only takes 3 mins about every hour or so. 

Are there cheaper timers that I could make work for this system? 

I friggin hate the CAP timers anyways...mine degraded somehow in about a month and started creating its own feeding schedules. 

Despite my lack of skill and knowledge, my feeding schedules were much more efficient than the ones it glitched out on.


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## LoudBlunts (Aug 23, 2008)

gvega, try sentinels digital recycling timer. for 100 bucks, its pound for pound the best recycling timer your money can buy! and why would you need three? why not plug all the pumps into the same timer? surely all the pumps cant be stronger than the timer


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## LoudBlunts (Aug 23, 2008)

al b, what other forums do you frequent?


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## gvega187 (Aug 23, 2008)

hell yeah blunts...i need to put this B out it seems...dur dur dur

good question 2!


----------



## DR. VonDankenstine (Aug 23, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> one thing while I'm thinking of it... it's really quite surprising how LITTLE you need to grow great dope with hydroponics. Nutes and pathogen control, pH adjustment as needed. That's all. No bloom blaster, bud lead, monster hooey, bee semen or other madness are needed. P & K supplements might be needed in late flowering, but are optional. You'll still get nice dense nugs if the room conditions are right (lots of light, effective ventilation & temp control to 24-26C).
> 
> Many growers buy magic sauces off the shelf after having a read of the labels, which are usually long on oblique or vague benefit statements (of course, they *can't* say 'makes your cannabis plants yield more bud!' and it's a good thing too because it probably isn't duplicatable or corroboratable) and daaaaaaaamn short on actual ingredients.
> 
> Incidentally, don't depend on your local hydro shop clerk for advice on magic sauces. If s/he really knew what they were talking about, they'd not be hawking magic sauces at minimum wage for a crust- they'd be running productive grow ops.


Al----Thanks alot for all your help in the past and great information---best of health and happiness to you my friend.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 23, 2008)

specialkayme said:


> Hey Al, just wondering in your opinion how much vertical space is necesary for a SOG grow with a 250 watt HPS? i.e. assuming 12 inches for the container, then how high do the plants usually get + how much space between the plants and the 250 + the space of the light itself = your wonderful estimate. Any ideas?


 I've not flowered a SoG op with a 250; smallest HPS I've used in a SoG was a 400. Plants still came up to about 900mm-1m tall as they do under my 1000s. 

Plan on having 1m for plants and about 300mm lamp clearance. The rest is dependent on how tall your flood tray stands off the floor.



LBS OF DANK said:


> alright AL B im gonna try and do like your two week program and go sog.im also gonna try 2 build a ebb n flow system, if u didnt tell me to try n build it i probably wouldve spent 200 bucks and bought an econojet.


 When I talk about avoiding kits, I don't necessarily mean avoiding the articles that are included in kits, rather buying only the items you need and avoiding the add-ons the shop wants to sell you along with them. Shop alternative sources like your local hdwe store or aquarium/pet store. Make sure you shop & compare; some aquarium/pet shops are even more overpriced than a hydro shop. 







There's really no good DIY substitute for moulded plastic flood trays. Those will best be sourced from a hydro shop, but do phone around and compare. 

However, your local hdwe store probably has the 25mm (1") square aluminium tubing and Qubelok plastic connectors to make a stand. The res tank can just as easily be a cheap plastic storage tub from the local cheeeep Chinese junk dollar shop. 


> if i get a 2x2 planter 7 inches high can i use 10 gall rubbermaid or it needs 2 be a bigger res then from there just connect tubing to the fittings and pump. plug the pump in the timer then i got my own system. is it that easy???


 Yes, the setup really is that easy. Plan on about 5L of tank volume per plant. 



LBS OF DANK said:


> the reason y i was thinking dwc cause i thought it was the cheapest being all u need is 5 gallon bucket mesh pot/lid and a air pump i could make 4


 DWC is not for beginners. As you also know from reading this thread carefully, DWC is also dependent on 24/7 air supply- a power outage lasting more than a couple of hours can be curtains for DWC plants.



LBS OF DANK said:


> is a 185 cfm active air blower good for taking out my hot air for my 400 watt hps????


 Exhaust blower size is dependent on the room's volume. The minimum fan size should be one which can shift the volume of the room airmass in about 3 mins. A 500cu ft room needs a minimum 167CFM blower. 

However, ventilation is one of the VERY few things in a grow room where more is always better. 185CFM isn't a whole lot of air; I use a 150mm/200CFM axial blower _*just*_ to run my cooltubes. My 500cu ft room is exhausted with a 600CFM, 250mm centrif and has a pair of 150mm axials as intake blowers.



gvega187 said:


> dam al, I just realized to make the pebbles work in your system I would need 3 more of those expensive CAP timers. Cos flooding only takes 3 mins about every hour or so.
> 
> Are there cheaper timers that I could make work for this system?
> 
> I friggin hate the CAP timers anyways...


 What's a CAP timer? 

The ordinary digital timers I can get from the local hdwe store allow 24 programs per 24 hours, with runtimes programmable in single minute increments.



LoudBlunts said:


> al b, what other forums do you frequent?


I'm registered on more boards than I can recall.  Aside from RIU, I'm also registered as Al B. on Grass City & OSA, several others. I don't look in on the others often.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 23, 2008)

Mythbusting time. 

This is a cross-post from another thread. I want it in here because this thread is getting 3-400 reads a day. 

Good excuse for some new shots of what's on in my op at the moment, too. 



> Earl said:
> 
> 
> > Your pH will never stabilize using tapwater.
> ...


----------



## sparkafire (Aug 23, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> *Absolutely false.* I really wish you'd stop propagating this myth, Earl. You've done it in several places on RIU. You're allowed to fool yourself but you're NOT allowed to fool others.


OK Note to self........ Dont bring up RO VS Tap water to ABF. LOL 

ABF You are one of the good ones!!! Thanks for helping us all out here. I realize it must take an ENORMOUS amount of time to reply to all the questions. 
Just wanted to say thanks. kiss-ass

Did you ever get your royalty check I sent?

Sparky


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 23, 2008)

sparkafire said:


> OK Note to self........ Dont bring up RO VS Tap water to ABF. LOL


I wouldn't be so militant about it if there were not people- who _*really *_ought to know better- deliberately propagating mythinformation. 



> ABF You are one of the good ones!!! Thanks for helping us all out here. I realize it must take an ENORMOUS amount of time to reply to all the questions.
> 
> Just wanted to say thanks.


Thanks. It takes me a few hours a day, but I also type at 90-100wpm. I like thinking about the problems and forming a solution. My real payoff is when folks come back later and tell me that my suggestion fixed the problem. 



> Did you ever get your royalty check I sent?


I sure did. 

You should now have a supply of Fuct Intellectual Property LLP licences in a convenient dispenser roll, right beside your dunny.


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## llLOU (Aug 23, 2008)

AL B, Is there a book that you created ? I'll buy it! 
I'm just a beginner with all of this , and hungry for info that is reliable , and understandable, some of these posts,????, I swear I need an interpretor . Thanks for being there.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 23, 2008)

llLOU said:


> AL B, Is there a book that you created ? I'll buy it!


You're reading it as I'm writing it. 



> I'm just a beginner with all of this , and hungry for info that is reliable , and understandable, some of these posts,????, I swear I need an interpretor . Thanks for being there.


Hang around, I'll try to make it all plain Chinglish for you.


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 23, 2008)

well monday my white widow seeds will be here so ill get started making my system today and as soon as my seeds come ill order some ak or blueberry so that way i can keep a mother of white widows and then try my luck finding mothers for the ak or blueberry.what do u think is good strain for me to go with after white widow


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 23, 2008)

skunkschoolinsession said:


> hey Al alot of people wanting to see you just id drop this off here since no1 can send you PMs without Rolli reading and deleting them


No, I don't get PMs because _****I****_ have them shut off. I can not keep up with the flood of individual messages and wind up telling 20 ppl the same thing. Would rather do it in an open forum so everyone learns. 

You sound like a real malcontent who *should* be banned. Spam up your circle-jerk somewhere else. 

What a wanker. 



LBS OF DANK said:


> what do u think is good strain for me to go with after white widow


Any indica dominant hybrid will do fine in SoG.


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## LoudBlunts (Aug 23, 2008)

al, its not very far off from the truth if you pay attention to the forums...


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 23, 2008)

thanks al b


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 23, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> al, its not very far off from the truth if you pay attention to the forums...


Maybe my problem is that I'm here to talk about growing dope instead of 'social networking' as it were. Couldn't care less about cliques and personality clashes.


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 23, 2008)

im wondering how to set up the active blower fan just put it next to my lights with the duct going outside my grow area with a little oscilating fan at the bottom or get a inline duct fan???


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## LoudBlunts (Aug 23, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Maybe my problem is that I'm here to talk about growing dope instead of 'social networking' as it were. Couldn't care less about cliques and personality clashes.



and maybe he was asking you to drop some of your knowledge over there...but i hear you!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 23, 2008)

LBS OF DANK said:


> im wondering how to set up the active blower fan just put it next to my lights with the duct going outside my grow area with a little oscilating fan at the bottom or get a inline duct fan???


like this...

 ​


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 23, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> and maybe he was asking you to drop some of your knowledge over there...but i hear you!


I'm sure he was. However, accusing admin of deleting my messages when I know better and generally being a dickhead isn't going to entice me much.


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 23, 2008)

how r u germinating clones?? u germinate seeds clones from my research u place them in a stable medium in a humid pkace until they show roots im probably wrong but i know u dont germinate clones


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 23, 2008)

al b so i have to get 3 sq cage fans or i could use just one to pull the hot air out and use small fans for intake and my light letme know because my w.w. r here i want it right u should write a book because u r helping me out alot thanks AL B


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 23, 2008)

LBS OF DANK said:


> how r u germinating clones?? u germinate seeds clones from my research u place them in a stable medium in a humid pkace until they show roots im probably wrong


Clones can't be germinated. Germination is the process of sprouting a seed. 



> but i know u dont germinate clones


So why'd you ask? Trying to get the old post count up?  Bit of a silly post.



LBS OF DANK said:


> al b so i have to get 3 sq cage fans or i could use just one to pull the hot air out and use small fans for intake and my light letme know because my w.w. r here i want it right u should write a book because u r helping me out alot thanks AL B


I've already given you the spec for exhaust blower ratings.


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 23, 2008)

i saw it but r those all sq cage fans??


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## sparkafire (Aug 23, 2008)

LBS OF DANK said:


> how r u germinating clones?? u germinate seeds clones from my research u place them in a stable medium in a humid pkace until they show roots im probably wrong but i know u dont germinate clones





LBS OF DANK said:


> al b so i have to get 3 sq cage fans or i could use just one to pull the hot air out and use small fans for intake and my light letme know because my w.w. r here i want it right u should write a book because u r helping me out alot thanks AL B


LOL!!!!!! DUDE READ READ READ!!!! These are kinda basic questions look it up in this thread you will find the same question and his answer at least 3 times. if not here it WILL be some where on the site. 

Sorry ALB for getting in your world but it kills me when people use you instead of researching their own shit. 

And yes i use the licenses everyday you so gladly issued. 

S


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## LoudBlunts (Aug 23, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I'm sure he was. However, accusing admin of deleting my messages when I know better and generally being a dickhead isn't going to entice me much.



i don't think he was referring to you, just in general.... read what he said.

this why I said what he said is quite far from the truth. clearly states in the rules when it was reposted!

what if i asked? would that entice you to share some knowledge over there? 


but anywho....i digress...not trying to hijack your thread.


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 23, 2008)

and yeah i saw the old post i added my 2 cents i also want to keep u posted with my grow al b being im getting my pro advice from u. the reason im asking about the fans because i could get the inline duct fans for pulling air in and out and they r cheaper then the squirrel cage fans


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## LBS OF DANK (Aug 23, 2008)

i am reading i just want to be sure i admit i am a newb and i am asking alot of ?s but like i said b4 i dont want to mess up but ill relax though.


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## newportbeach949 (Aug 23, 2008)

Top leaves are twisting on me a tiny bit..

my plants are still dark green but the new shoots are starting to twist ? not curling down or up like from nute but but just twisting upside down and making curved tips?

does this make some sense , if not i will take pictures for you..

thanks man,


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 23, 2008)

pix is always good!


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## Chumlie (Aug 23, 2008)

Al, are these any good?
Digital PH Meter Hydroponic Tester Aquarium Monitor Spa - eBay (item 230282678809 end time Aug-25-08 09:37:50 PDT)
EC Meter Water Test Orchid Plants Hydroponics Aquarium - eBay (item 310076957648 end time Aug-25-08 19:04:28 PDT)


This next one I don't know if it is the same thing that I've already showed ya.
Nutrient Truncheon Wand EC/PPM/CF Meter Hydroponic NR! - eBay (item 220271730034 end time Aug-24-08 05:47:49 PDT)

HM Digital TDS-3 Meter w/Case, TDS3,Temp, ppm,Tester - eBay (item 270267048725 end time Aug-26-08 08:39:49 PDT)
CO2 Regulator Solenoid - eBay (item 220271417437 end time Aug-27-08 10:56:48 PDT)

Have some more just in case thats not enough
Im still trying to figure out how to get my temps down. My problebma is location, location, location. Im upstairs with sorry insolation and even a more sorry a/c unit. I just wish there was something I could build to keep the room cool. I'll be better off when get my own place... with a basement.


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## newportbeach949 (Aug 23, 2008)

temps around 78f rh 51


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 24, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Al, are these any good?


I would not buy cheap Chinese meters- especially not the knock offs of well known good products like the Bluelab Truncheon. 

You can buy the cheap meters and they may work for a while but they won't last long. Better to buy well and buy once. 

No need to parade every ebay listing you can find at me. 



newportbeach949 said:


> temps around 78f rh 51


What's the nute strength & pH?


----------



## Chumlie (Aug 24, 2008)

Sorry man, just trying to get by with the cheap stuff untill I can afford the good things. Right now I'm just practicing on dirt seed for later when I'm good I can buy the good ones, and it want be wasted.

Did you check out that regulator, I think I found a tank for it.
5 lb. Aluminum Co2 Tank | BeverageFactory.com


----------



## Chumlie (Aug 24, 2008)

Hey, forget that regulator. I just thought about it, it don't have a silinoid on it.


----------



## bigtittymilf (Aug 24, 2008)

al i got my ppm meter and i ot the blue labs one that measures ph ppm ec something else and temp i got my ph to 5.8 but i need some ph up apparently my nutes lower it alor so it was hard to get the ppm right and ph without ph up i only have the h down i was gonna do the 1400 but that just seems hig im gonna give it a couple days at 1100 and if thaty looks dificient ill add some more but heres the thing i dont know what mix of blom/calmag like how to judge how much of each one i need to add to get to the magic pm nember if you have input i also got my vent working so im now at 79-80 farenheit and ive grown good dank with higher temps 4 times so far also my water temp is 73 is this too high if so how much are chillers i cant afford one till i get harvest out again


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 24, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Sorry man, just trying to get by with the cheap stuff untill I can afford the good things.


Practise is always good, but if you can't fully trust your metering, problems may pop up that are caused by a cheap meter slowly gaining inaccuracy. You may not immediately identify the cause as a lying meter. Time counts when solving problems in a grow. 

Good metering is a smart investment. My Bluelab Truncheon meter is 8 years old. They're a bit more now, but I paid about $90 for this one years back. That's $11.25 per year and getting cheaper! My Eutech pHScan1 meters (I have 2) are 5 and 7 years old and I replace electrodes on them every 2 years. About $112, new tips are about $60, tips are user-replaceable so the units don't ever have to leave here for factory service. 



> Did you check out that regulator, I think I found a tank for it.
> 5 lb. Aluminum Co2 Tank | BeverageFactory.com


I'd rent an E sized (20lb?) cylinder, about $100/year. Find out how often you use that up before investing in your own tank. Remember that tanks have a service life, usually 10 years, after which time retails can refuse to fill them. It's probably financially smarter to own your own tank, but make sure the one you buy is big enough to keep you from having to fill too frequently.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 24, 2008)

Punctuate much, there btm?  _*Sentences*_- they're _more _than just a good idea!



bigtittymilf said:


> al i got my ppm meter and i ot the blue labs one that measures ph ppm ec something else and temp


I wasn't aware that Bluelab has a pH & ppm combo meter- is that what you're trying to tell me?



> i got my ph to 5.8 but i need some ph up apparently my nutes lower it alor so it was hard to get the ppm right and ph without ph up


So you mixed nutes with plain water and got 5.8? No problem, you're there. 



> i only have the h down i was gonna do the 1400 but that just seems hig im gonna give it a couple days at 1100 and if thaty looks dificient ill add some more


1400 is not high. It's in the middle of the bell curve. 1100 is a little low but probably won't show deficiencies, at least not immediately. 



> but heres the thing i dont know what mix of blom/calmag like how to judge how much of each one i need to add to get to the magic pm nember


Don't use ANY CalMag unless you have correctly diagnosed Ca & Mg deficiencies. Both elements are in your nutes and in your tapwater. If you see a Ca or Mg deficiency, it could equally be caused by incorrect pH. 

Check this chart stolen from St0ney on gardensecure.com









> if you have input i also got my vent working so im not at 79-80 farenheit and ive grown good dank with higher temps 4 times so far


So, what is the spread of temps indicated by your peak-memory thermometer right now?



> also my water temp is 73 is this too high
> 
> if so how much are chillers i cant afford one till i get harvest out again


Yes, but not terrible. Water loses most of its dissolved O2 at and above 25C (77F). It holds most O2 at 19C (67F) and down. You can cool your nutes with freezer packs or you can buy a nute chiller, search Google, you'll get a number of retailers sellling them.


----------



## bigtittymilf (Aug 24, 2008)

i havent checked the spread i have to go fuck with the thermometer and see how to use it. yeah blue lab makes it it was 300 exacty for the meter and the calibration fluid. ill see if i can find a link to the meter its really nice one. i did see some mag def and everytime from my tap water i have had to add cal mag even in soil. and actually hen i mixed with nutes apparently botanicare nutes lower h so i had to get my ppm right but it dropped my ph to 4.8 so i had to add more tap water to raise it some and it dropped my pm to like 1100 so i just went with that. 

Bluelab Combo Meter

here is the meter that i have it was worth every penny.

enjoy the punctuation dick lol lol lol just kidding man you have been more help to me than anyone else on the website.

i ment to say i am NOW at 79-80f but i hit the wrong button.


----------



## Chumlie (Aug 24, 2008)

Im going to that damn blue lab; I'll just have save fifty buck out of this check and fifty out of two more. I can save to get it I just wish there was a closer place to get one cuz its the shipping that gets me when all added together. First Im going to have buy another 2' fluro.

Well you know I have the week older plant than the rest, and its coming up on its third week. Thats the time to change it to full ferts. Well should I change it or should I keep it the same for another week so the others can katsup What is your opion on watering and using ferts for couple week old seedlings anyways?


----------



## bigtittymilf (Aug 24, 2008)

the blue lab combo meter is AWSOME you will be very happy with it i got mine form hydroshop i wont order anthing but i dont mind driving to shop its in another state so i dont have to wory aout local popo scopng it out


----------



## Chumlie (Aug 24, 2008)

I'm not worried about the pigs in that way just don't want to pay the extra. Hey Al I know what I forgot to ask you. Did I read in one these post you asking for birth control pills for your plants? Whats that about? If you didn't please correct me.


----------



## bigtittymilf (Aug 24, 2008)

lol yeah break up a yaz in the water everyday just make sure you dont miss a day or they will fuck up thier hormones and get really bitchy lol


----------



## Chumlie (Aug 24, 2008)

What do the males do...loose there balls.


----------



## DR. VonDankenstine (Aug 25, 2008)

Al-
I found a evaporative cooler digital controller 115v--14 max amp with 2speed fan controller at Ace Hardware. Can this be used for my fans?(can fans)? The un it cost is $34.95 at ACE
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Automatically controls the operation of the evaporative cooler. 
​LCD digital temperature readout with electronic temperature sensor circuitry.
Constant room temperature displayed.
Easy single touch temperature adjustment.
Case door covers operating controls
Four minute blower start delay when using pump feature for pad wetting.
Installs in standard depth 2 x 4 single gang electrical box. ​

UL Listed, 1 HP, 115 VAC, 60Hz​


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2008)

bigtittymilf said:


> i havent checked the spread i have to go fuck with the thermometer and see how to use it.


ok, it's usually not much harder than a reset button to clear the high & low values.



> yeah blue lab makes it it was 300 exacty for the meter and the calibration fluid. ill see if i can find a link to the meter its really nice one.


That looks NICE. The beauty of this particular combo meter is that it has not only separate electrodes but they'd be user replaceable, too. Well spotted. That's so cool I may just have to have one myself. 

I hope it's as good as their TDS Truncheon. My TDS Truncheon is now 8 years old. However, Bluelab's recently introduced pHTruncheon was a dud. I had 3 of them before I gave up. Would not calibrate, gave error mesages when the unit was no more than a week old. My hydro wholesaler is taking returns on the pHT by the cartonload.



> i did see some mag def and everytime from my tap water i have had to add cal mag even in soil. and actually hen i mixed with nutes apparently botanicare nutes lower h so i had to get my ppm right but it dropped my ph to 4.8 so i had to add more tap water to raise it some and it dropped my pm to like 1100 so i just went with that.


Wracking my brain over this one. It would seem like low pH causing the Mg def, but you're shooting for 5.8, right? Any hydro nute mix will have Mg in quantities just behind those for N, P & K. Tapwater has quite a lot in most places, not enough to grow plants with, but certainly some, and the plants will use it.



> here is the meter that i have it was worth every penny.


I agree with you, looks pretty schmick. 



> enjoy the punctuation dick lol lol lol just kidding man you have been more help to me than anyone else on the website.


You are SO much easier for me to read when you punctuate. I really do appreciate it. Gets your message across much better. I don't have to double up and ask for clarifications. Thank you for helping me help you. 



> i ment to say i am NOW at 79-80f but i hit the wrong button.


Ah, OK, sounds reasonable, if that's your top temp. I know you've gotten crops through at higher temps in the past but you really will be impressed with what happens when you get the temps down to a steady 24-26C. You may have gotten a few outstanding producing plants and a few ordinary ones. Get the temps in the middle of the bell curve and more of them will do better. 



Chumlie said:


> Im going to that damn blue lab; I'll just have save fifty buck out of this check and fifty out of two more.


Just one question- how much is an oz of bud in your area? How long would that last you? 



> What is your opion on watering and using ferts for couple week old seedlings anyways?


Give 1/4 strength nutes when they seedlings have their 2nd set of 'true' leaves (3-bladed leaves). Go to 1/2 the following week and full boot thereafter.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Hey Al I know what I forgot to ask you. Did I read in one these post you asking for birth control pills for your plants? Whats that about? If you didn't please correct me.


 It was a wisecrack. 

Putting BCPs on your plants yields little more than a pregnant girlfriend. 



bigtittymilf said:


> lol yeah break up a yaz in the water everyday just make sure you dont miss a day or they will fuck up thier hormones and get really bitchy lol


 Not enough dough in the world to pay me to be a chick. Love women to death, all the same glad they have to take care of the apparatus of feminininininity instead of me.



DR. VonDankenstine said:


> Al-
> I found a evaporative cooler digital controller 115v--14 max amp with 2speed fan controller at Ace Hardware. Can this be used for my fans?(can fans)?


It'd probably work great as a thermostat for your fans, it sure has enough current switching capability, could switch a wind tunnel with 14A capacity.  

As a side note, while we're on a related topic, we don't want any evap coolers in a grow room. They cool by putting water into the air and it's usually a battle to keep RH down in a grow.


----------



## DR. VonDankenstine (Aug 25, 2008)

Thank you- I was looking at the unit the other day. I do have an humidifier in my veg room---completely separate from flowering room--keeps my veg room at 40-45%RH. Have you built an electronic FUCT.tm humidifier controller yet? I could use one for my flowering room----get on it man.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2008)

Wow, you must have Sahara-like ambient air conds! You'd have one of those hen's-teeth rare ops that actually could benefit from a swamp cooler!

I'll get the design dept over at Fuct Engineering&#8482; to get right on top of that humidistat. Considering the Fuct&#8482; tradition of under-engineering and avoiding responsibility for innovation, I guess the first thing they'd need to find is a humidistat. 

Woddya expect from an outfit named Fuct Engineering&#8482;? The drafting department is out back with the machinist, choofing a bucket bong. The stores girl had 2 hash brownies for breakfast and is too busy grooving to pirated MP3s to put up the parts inbound. I/T hooked up the mainframe's UPS to the air pumps in the grow op down in the car park. Everything's just Fu... errr.. well, you know.


----------



## LBS OF DANK (Aug 25, 2008)

i got my ww seed and im ready for em i just need 2 finish my ebb n flow system i was thinking of starting 6 plants in the rainforest do i can get it at my hydro store 4 100 dollars is that a good investment oh and i want to start with my 400 watt hps since its my first grow is that good??


----------



## LBS OF DANK (Aug 25, 2008)

will i traumatize my plants when i switch them out of the rain forest 2 the ebb n flow??? and i only want to use the 400 watt hps for like 2 weeks then ill replace it with a mh or stick with the hps watt and just get cheap floros for when i start cloning like 4 60 watts???


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## Chumlie (Aug 25, 2008)

Where I live not all the time but most of it, whites are whom ever wants to buy has to get what we can get. The blacks are always saying its dro, its dro. Its shit, its shit, but you have pay $80 american to $100 for oz. This all one can get here cuz for some weird reason were a main traveling spot for every thing but nothing usuall good stops just keeps on going. Everything is shit here. Now don't get me wrong it will get you high-then the munchies.

Is there a strain that puts off the munchies?


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## bigtittymilf (Aug 25, 2008)

lol i was kidding chumli yaz is birth control for women it would robably just hurt your plants if it did anything 

the only problem i had with my meter was i couldnt get it to calibrate to exactly 7 and 4 i dont know if it was from fresh water being on probe but it says to keep probe wet i got it callibrated to .1 over on the low and the high end. i can deal with a one tenth variation . and it might have just been cuz i never calibrated one before as well.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Is there a strain that puts off the munchies?


Yes; try 'Old Spit & Vomit' from Bulimia Seeds. 



bigtittymilf said:


> lol i was kidding chumli yaz is birth control for women it would robably just hurt your plants if it did anything


I'd lean toward the 'wouldn't do anything to the plant' notion. 


> the only problem i had with my meter was i couldnt get it to calibrate to exactly 7 and 4 i dont know if it was from fresh water being on probe but it says to keep probe wet i got it callibrated to .1 over on the low and the high end. i can deal with a one tenth variation . and it might have just been cuz i never calibrated one before as well.


A brand new pH meter probe should be soaked for several hours in plain water before use. If after that (and keeping your probe tip wet with a bit of damp sponge in the meter cap) your meter can't be calibrated to the cal soln properly, something's amiss. It ought to snap right to the cal soln value.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 25, 2008)

Hey Al, do you have a link for Bulimia Seeds? I tried to search the bank and the strain, but no luck. I am a skinny guy, so I may need the munchies, but that is a strain I think could sell like crazy. If I sold or stuff like that. LoL


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Hey Al, do you have a link for Bulimia Seeds? I tried to search the bank and the strain, but no luck. I am a skinny guy, so I may need the munchies, but that is a strain I think could sell like crazy. If I sold or stuff like that. LoL


Yeah, think of all the stoned supermodels! 

Folks, I'm gonna be scarce for a day or two. My ADSL is fuct, drops connection every 10 mins for about 5 mins each time... and the buttheads at the telco say they can't get to the problem until Thursday. 

See you when I can!


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## ZEN MASTER (Aug 25, 2008)

Oh my god "old spit and vomit from bulimia seeds" 
That was a good one!!!!!

Wait, wait then the guy actually tries to look it up, hilarious!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2008)

well, I was kinda hoping that Kaos was just playing along (with the 'gag' )... but.. anything's possible.


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 25, 2008)

Yeah I was playing, lol. Would be pretty damn cool.


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## toast master (Aug 25, 2008)

Hey Al .. I know you dont like evap. coolers for the problems they can create .. but the air here is dryer than a popcorn fart and with out my evap running 18 hrs a day it would be impossibe for me to douplicate your op.. i can barley keep rh at 50- 55 % runnig all day ... I have had to experement with different flow thru but got it down now.. gonna be 106 here tomorrow ... just a thought for those who cant run air con.


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 25, 2008)

Originally Posted by *bugsrnme*  
_well i'll be goddamned....you horrible,horrible man!!! 
you weren't even gonna tell anybody......this is the first i've heard of this. i'm only doing it once.....so i should bump it up huh?_
WTF are you talking about, bugs? Lost me.


sorry man just fuckin around...wtf i was talkin' about was...just being overly dramatic about me missing the boat on you flooding more often. now it has me worried that i should be flooding more often (running pots filled w/floc in the bottom then chunky perlite the rest of the way.) than once a day.


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## Chumlie (Aug 25, 2008)

Hahaha, Well I was being serious cuz I don't know what good shit your smoking but where Im at as soon as you get done smoking the munchies come. Im talking less than 10 min. I think thats a waste of weed and as matter fact money. When it cost you $80 dollars an ounce give are take for shit, and thats all they have, WTF else can you do except ask questions? Maybe just any strain better than shit would work. I don't know the only thing I have had better than shit was purp, and orange kush.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Yeah I was playing, lol. Would be pretty damn cool.


 Yeah, I thought you were. 

'Old Spit 'n' Vomit' would be a disaster for me! I'd smoke myself into a wisp of my former self. 



toast master said:


> Hey Al .. I know you dont like evap. coolers for the problems they can create .. but the air here is dryer than a popcorn fart and with out my evap running 18 hrs a day it would be impossibe for me to douplicate your op.. i can barley keep rh at 50- 55 % runnig all day ... I have had to experement with different flow thru but got it down now.. gonna be 106 here tomorrow ... just a thought for those who cant run air con.


 holeeee fuck, poor you! We had a 45.3C day here on 1/1/2007 that I will remember to the end of my days. Even my _*keyboard*_ was too hot to touch. You gotta do what you gotta do- with your conds, a swamp cooler is just the ticket. 



bugsrnme said:


> sorry man just fuckin around...wtf i was talkin' about was...just being overly dramatic about me missing the boat on you flooding more often. now it has me worried that i should be flooding more often (running pots filled w/floc in the bottom then chunky perlite the rest of the way.) than once a day.


You probably _can_ get away with flooding more often than 1x/day in perlite. The layer of floc in the bottom being saturated isn't a concern. By the time a plant is large enough to have roots down there, it's large enough to suck out a significant proportion of the stored water in 24h. I'd expect perlite to act a lot like Fytocell. I flood my pots of Fytocell with the layer or RW in the bottom 3x/day for advanced plants, 2x/day for plants in wk 1-2 of flowering. Bump it up for your more mature plants, see how you go. 



Chumlie said:


> Hahaha, Well I was being serious cuz I don't know what good shit your smoking but where Im at as soon as you get done smoking the munchies come. Im talking less than 10 min. I think thats a waste of weed and as matter fact money.


Um, the munchies are a sign of _*good*_ dope, man!



> When it cost you $80 dollars an ounce give are take for shit, and thats all they have, WTF else can you do except ask questions?


fuck, if you can get _*decent*_ buds (not seedy, leafy Mexican commercial shit) for $80/oz- turn me ON! Can't touch an oz around here for less than 400 unless you know a grower- and even if you are _*well*_ connected, you won't pay less than 300.


----------



## Chumlie (Aug 25, 2008)

It's the seedy, leafy Mesican commercial shit if not lower than that.

"Can't touch an oz around here for less than 400 unless you know a grower- and even if you are _*well*_ connected, you won't pay less than 300." 

Is that for good stuff, than thats about the same thing here.
I just want a good buzz or high for atleast an hour before the munchies, are pass out from it. I did when I smoke purp the first time.

I think I want what every pot head wants, the way it felt to get high those first two years of smoking.


----------



## HATCH (Aug 25, 2008)

Hey Al.,Can You Use Apple Cider Vinegar For PH Down In A Pinch????,,,,In A Aeroponic System....


----------



## grandpabear3 (Aug 25, 2008)

hell ya man ...the early years were awesome...i remember cleaning stems and seeds out of a dime with a buddy of mine when i was 16 or so....(30ish now al dont worry)
then lookin at him with all seriousness goin'...dude, were gonna smoke this whoooole pile man...like it was a pound or something!! too funny....good times, thanks for the reminder man.

oh thanks for the reply al...i'll give the extra watering a go and let ya know.


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 25, 2008)

that reply was to you chum


----------



## Chumlie (Aug 25, 2008)

Yea, me and a freind onetime could get anybody to hit the huge ass bowl on a fourway shroom bong name dopy, so we hit that SoB pluging the other end up. I took all the smoke in cuz I was still a rookie. Uwee! I couldn't stop coughing, then afterwards I was damn H I G H!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> It's the seedy, leafy Mesican commercial shit if not lower than that.


ahhh... splains a lot.



> > "Can't touch an oz around here for less than 400 unless you know a grower- and even if you are _*well*_ connected, you won't pay less than 300."
> 
> 
> Is that for good stuff, than thats about the same thing here.


It's actually pretty hard to buy bad weed around here. The big outdoor farmers are low-hanging fruit to LEO. They get more headlines when they can claim a 10,000 plant farm was busted as opposed to some poor sod with 10 plants in a closet, so outdoor shit is really hard to come by anymore- but it still can be had. Might be 200-250 when good indoor buds are at least 300 and usually 400- and most folks would rather pay more and get good nugs. 



> I just want a good buzz or high for atleast an hour before the munchies, are pass out from it.


Ah, I see. You're looking for more of a head buzz. Schwaggy shit that couchlocks you and puts you right into munchieville often has been stored badly (often too warm, above 29C) and some of the d9-THC has been converted into less- or non-psychoactive cannabinoids like cannabidiol (CBD), known to cause lethargy. 

You have a couple of options. Grow your own from the schwag seeds and dry/store it better. It'll get you a buzz closer to what you want, just by being handled better. Plan B is to grow your own from good DNA from a seedbank- you might prefer a sativa dominant hybrid if you want more of a headbuzz. Sativa doms are not as popular because they don't yield as heavily and take longer to mature, but it may be just what you want. 



> I did when I smoke purp the first time.


Be careful. Genetically purple buds are verrrrrrrrrrrry rare. 99% of the time you see purpled buds, it's due to nutrient deficiencies (phosphorus in particular, molybdenum less frequently) which might be induced by pH errors. If you see a purple bud, it most likely came from a sick plant and probably won't be the strongest herb you ever smoked. 



> I think I want what every pot head wants, the way it felt to get high those first two years of smoking.


Try smoking less frequently. You'll get a better buzz off less herb if you leave about 3 days between smoking.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2008)

HATCH said:


> Hey Al.,Can You Use Apple Cider Vinegar For PH Down In A Pinch????,,,,In A Aeroponic System....


*No!* Vinegar is a product of fermentation. The only thing that keeps it fermenting more is the acidity of the final product. Dilute it and it just might start fermenting again. If you use vinegar, you will see clouds of gacky goo growing in your tanks in about 3 days, notably attached to any hoses or objects in the nute soln. *Definite* no-no.



Chumlie said:


> a fourway shroom bong name dopy,


The _*name*_ of your bong always makes a _*big*_ difference.  Always pick something very stonerfied.


----------



## Chumlie (Aug 25, 2008)

Man, I havent smoke in a month are so, but I get what your saying. Here's a question that I don't think anybodies has ask you on this thread. What is your procedure on drying your bud?


----------



## Chumlie (Aug 25, 2008)

I wish dopy was my bong it was a KILLER.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Man, I havent smoke in a month are so, but I get what your saying.


wow, the Mex must be pretty fuckin' ordinary if it's giving you the zombies after not having had a smoke in a month. 



> Here's a question that I don't think anybodies has ask you on this thread. What is your procedure on drying your bud?


I manicure plants while good & fresh, right out of the grow, stick them in my low-temp DIY bud dryer. That's another mile-long thread, but worth going all the way through. I discuss the theory early and detail a rebuild of the dryer later in the thread.


----------



## Chumlie (Aug 25, 2008)

Do you mean feaning are I got the shakes from not smoking in a month by zombie?


----------



## Chumlie (Aug 25, 2008)

I got to go watch weeds... I'll be back.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Do you mean feaning are I got the shakes from not smoking in a month by zombie?


WTF?


----------



## Chumlie (Aug 25, 2008)

never mind we just had a misunderstanding.


----------



## toast master (Aug 25, 2008)

L.O.L. I guess.........


----------



## Chumlie (Aug 25, 2008)

What is a aluminum body resistors,and what is deep-finned heat sink? I have a springed heating element out of a nacho machine, and also out of another nacho machine I got a heating elemnent that looks like mini version of those finned wall heaters. I can't find a pic.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> What is a aluminum body resistors,and what is deep-finned heat sink?


If you don't know what those are, I'm sorry, you can't build a bud dryer.


----------



## Chumlie (Aug 25, 2008)

Hey, what kind of company was it that you rented the Co2 tank from, and did it come with a silinoid regulator?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2008)

I don't have a CO2 tank


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 26, 2008)

aaaaaaahhhh... ADSL is now fixed.  My guess had been a dodgy -48V supply on the DSLAM at the CO, cycling off every 8-10 mins. Techo sez I was spot on.  Nice to have been retired from tech work for a number of years but know the ol brane still works.  

Now that we're not getting disconnected every 8 mins.. 

Chumlie, you hire cyls of CO2 from welding gas suppliers. They'll have the regulators, too. Get the controller from a hydro shop. Look for one that senses CO2 levels and controls exhaust fans and/or aircon. The controller will set you back about $1000-1500.


----------



## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

hey al b just joining u think i can run a 400 watt hps in a closet with doors open when its on in the basement its real breezy down there


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

the closet is 2 feet wide about 2 and a half feet deep 6 feet high


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 26, 2008)

wyteberrywidow said:


> hey al b just joining u think i can run a 400 watt hps in a closet with doors open when its on in the basement its real breezy down there


No, you'll have to put in some proper ventilation. Leaving a door partway open is not good ventilation. 

There has to be an exhaust system which puts air somewhere else, where it cannot be easily drawn back in the grow. Moreover, without any ducting or at least an exhaust fan through a wall or ceiling, hot air will just stay put in the closet. 

Ventilation is task number one in setting up a grow. If not done right, the grow will always have heat related problems. For a closet the size of yours, I'd us a 150mm axial as an exhaust and another on a cooltube over the 400.


----------



## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

hello???anybody can answer my ?? info please


----------



## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

oh sorry about that al b didnt see that can i use comp fans and oscillating fans??


----------



## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

thanks alot al b and what do u think im pressed 4 cash what should i start with soil or rainforest36 sixsite its only 90 at my hydrostore i only got 100 to spend


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 26, 2008)

wyteberrywidow said:


> oh sorry about that al b didnt see that can i use comp fans and oscillating fans??


You'll need one osc fan to move air around within the op. Computer fans are not of much use.



wyteberrywidow said:


> thanks alot al b and what do u think im pressed 4 cash what should i start with soil or rainforest36 sixsite its only 90 at my hydrostore i only got 100 to spend


If you only have 100 to spend, you can't afford the 400HPS let alone anything else.


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

reading ur stuff i want to get hydro soil is out


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

i got the 400 watt already and i got a hundred to spend now. i got floro shop lights 2 40 watt tubes warm red and cool white for the seedlings now and when they get big enuff ill put the 400 on them i got a job and bills so i limit to how much money i spend a week but i have alot oscill fans around in the house and i could afford to get a sec hid next tues like a mh or another hps prob a 250 tho


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

that sog is good how many u think i can do under a 400


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## fitzyno1 (Aug 26, 2008)

50w average a square foot,
4 plants a square foot,
a 400w hps footprint could do a:
3' x 3' = 36 plants
3' x 2.5' = 30 plants


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## fitzyno1 (Aug 26, 2008)

By the way Al, sorry for answering that question, i just realised it was on your thread.


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## platypusmann (Aug 26, 2008)

Al, since you are the resident expert on SoG, wanted to ask you a question......I am growing in a 4x4 ebb & flow w/40 gal. res, 3" rockwool/hydroton medium, under a 400 watt HID light (MH veg/HPS flower) and three 42 watt CFL's (450 watts actual??). I have all factors (temps, RH, VPD, nutes) well under control, and am thinking of starting a SoG. I currently grow 10 plants from seed each grow, and usually get 4 to 6 females that I flower out. When I have had 6, the 400w HPS was not toally adequate to flower them fully...I had alot of little low buds undeveloped on three plants, which is why I added the CFL's. ANYWAY...I am wanting to pull a mother from my current Ice grow (I love this strain) and start cutting clones and doing SoG, and I would like your learned opinion as to how many plants you think I could comfortably grow under my lighting. I can fit 36 nursery pots into my table, but think I may need more light to do THAT many. I dunno. Just wanting your advice. Thanks much for the help.
B


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

so i could do 30 plants in 3x2.5 closet sog and be happy


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

well i started germinating 2day, 2 diff strains. white widow and purps and cant wait to see how this goes i fig once they sprout ill put the shop on them 24/7 for about 1-2 weeks depending on how they look then ill use the 400 watt to veg or ill just get some cfls 2 add 2 the shoplight any advice????


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 26, 2008)

wyteberrywidow said:


> i got the 400 watt already and i got a hundred to spend now. i got floro shop lights 2 40 watt tubes warm red and cool white for the seedlings now and when they get big enuff ill put the 400 on them i got a job and bills so i limit to how much money i spend a week but i have alot oscill fans around in the house and i could afford to get a sec hid next tues like a mh or another hps prob a 250 tho


 OK, good plan so far, but I think you should opt for a flood system for watering. As I've said before:



Al B. Fuct said:


> New growers are best served by plants in pots of absorbent media like rockwool, Fytocell or perlite, watered by a flood system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Aside from being easy to set up and operate, tray-based flood systems are very inexpensive and allow flexibility in plant count and placement, as opposed to bucket based eg WaterFarm or other systems with a fixed number of sites for plants. 

The only item you need buy from the hydro shop is a flood tray with hose fittings. Water & air pumps can come from an aquarium shop if the hydro shop's prices are too dear. A 400-450L/hr water pump is fine, I pay $11/ea for them. I get air pumps for about $12. The tray ought to be about $50 or less. The tray stand should be made of 25mm sq aluminium tube assembled with Qubelok plastic connectors, available at your local hdwe. You can save a little dough and make your own tray stand from timber as well as long as it does not get wet often. The res tank can be a cheap plastic storage tub from the dollar shop. 

Your choice of medium depends on how you want to work in the op. Low absorbency media can be flooded often, improving root oxygenation but at the loss of a large backup supply of water in case of water pump/timer failure. Low absorbency media is harder to overwater than high absorbency materials like rockwool.



fitzyno1 said:


> 50w average of HPS lighting a square foot,
> 4 plants a square foot in the flowering area,
> a 400w hps footprint could do a:
> 3' x 3' = 36 plants
> 3' x 2.5' = 30 plants


 All good fitzy, thanks for that. I've added a couple of details just for clarity.



wyteberrywidow said:


> so i could do 30 plants in 3x2.5 closet sog and be happy


 You could; I don't pack them in *quite* that tight in my op (I have 2.6 plants sq ft, 23 per 900mm x 900mm tray), but it's doable- you have to be aggressive with your pruning of branching on the lower part of the plants.



wyteberrywidow said:


> well i started germinating 2day, 2 diff strains. white widow and purps and cant wait to see how this goes i fig once they sprout ill put the shop on them 24/7 for about 1-2 weeks depending on how they look then ill use the 400 watt to veg or ill just get some cfls 2 add 2 the shoplight any advice????


Sounds good so far.


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## Bobster (Aug 26, 2008)

Howdy Al & others, How big/much of a root system do i need to transfer clones from a bubble cloner to a hempy bucket? I know u dont care for hempys so if u dont know then thats kool.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 26, 2008)

Bobster said:


> Howdy Al & others, How big/much of a root system do i need to transfer clones from a bubble cloner to a hempy bucket? I know u dont care for hempys so if u dont know then thats kool.


I don't think I'd let roots unsupported by media get more than an inch long or so before transplanting them into media, whatever the watering system. The risk of breakage is higher when they're longer, which if you break a large taproot, will cause transplant shock and set development back significantly- or worse.

You've obviously seen my concerns about keeping roots submerged without added oxygenation. Use of 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L of watering solution every 3-4 days will reduce the risk of root rot in the Hempy system. You might also see about getting a 55 gallon drum of Luck&#8482; for use with the Hempy- I'm not sure you can make them work without quite a lot of it.


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## Bobster (Aug 26, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I don't think I'd let roots unsupported by media get more than an inch long or so before transplanting them into media, whatever the watering system. The risk of breakage is higher when they're longer, which if you break a large taproot, will cause transplant shock and set development back significantly- or worse.
> 
> You've obviously seen my concerns about keeping roots submerged without added oxygenation. Use of 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L of watering solution every 3-4 days will reduce the risk of root rot in the Hempy system. You might also see about getting a 55 gallon drum of Luck for use with the Hempy- I'm not sure you can make them work without quite a lot of it.


Thanks for responding so fast. I cant speak for others but, when i recently removed plants from my buckets. There was no roots in the bottom 2" of the 3 gal bucket. Obviously thats the resivour. I thought that was kinda strange but yet understandable in another way. thx


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 26, 2008)

Bobster said:


> Thanks for responding so fast. I cant speak for others but, when i recently removed plants from my buckets. There was no roots in the bottom 2" of the 3 gal bucket. Obviously thats the resivour. I thought that was kinda strange but yet understandable in another way. thx


Roots won't thrive where there's too much water and too little air. There were no roots formed in the part of the medium which is kept too wet. This is the main drawback of the Hempy. 

It's better to keep the reservoir outboard from the growing container, as occurs in either recirculating or wick type systems. This allows maximum use of the volume of the container for rootmass while keeping none of the media too wet for roots or anaerobic enough to support pathogens. An outboard reservoir can be easily cleaned, oxygenated and sterilised. A wick system is only marginally more complex than a Hempy and has numerous advantages which make success more likely and yields higher.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 26, 2008)

As a more general commentary, Hempys are one of those things (like CFLs for flowering and Aerogardens) that are popular in this and other online communities through preponderance, not necessarily because they do the job well. Because they're simple, cheap (well, Aerogardens ain't cheap) and easily available, a lot of 1st time growers are tempted to use them. Because a lot of people are yutzing with them, there may be an impression given that they work well. They really don't- and success with them is mixed. Some folks get them to work well; I suspect those are the people who are giving them less water at a time but more frequently, essentially treating them like a handwatered pot of media. This would reduce saturation in the bottoms and thus root probs. It rather defeats any self-watering feature, though.


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## LoganSmith (Aug 26, 2008)

Sub........


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## gvega187 (Aug 26, 2008)

...way



yo al,

I was wondering what size container you prefer and why. I thought I read you use about a 6.5 by W x 6.5" H. Couldnt you fit about 60 of these in a 4 x 4 tray? 

What if you used larger containers? would it help the roots being supported by a larger area of media? 

basically i am overwhelmed by the variety of containers available. 

wouldn't it be idea to find a 8" or larger W x 6.5" H? 

thanks


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## gvega187 (Aug 26, 2008)

also, i saw white containers at the hydro store.

1)white=bad right

2)why would they sell white containers.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 26, 2008)

Welcome aboard, Logan.  You're just in time for a small experiment. 

I had some problems getting clones to set root as autumn was coming on. My clonebox is in an area which can get a little cold come winter. I had a roughly 6 week gap in getting new clones fed into my 4 tray SoG system. This meant that the plants that were in the room got longer to flower than usual. However, there's a limit to how long you can flower- after about 10-12wks or so, they can start to go hermaphroditic and make a mess of things. 

This led to a couple of bumper harvests in a row. However, it also meant that a lot of plants came out at a time, emptying more than a tray's worth at a time instead of 23 every 2 weeks as usual. I fixed the clonebox to work at cooler ambient temps by blocking off its air intake, air intake is presently by the sloppy fit of the front cover door. Now it holds 28-30C even when the ambient air is 9C. I'll uncover the passive intake when ambient temps come up to 20C or so in the spring. Otherwise, the box just ran too cold, even with the thermostat set for 30C. 

When I had the cloning sorted out, I made the mistake of filling all the empty space on the tables as quickly as I could instead of feeding in only 23 (1 tray's worth) every 2 weeks. I kept doing batches of cuttings even though they had nowhere to go. 

What happens at one end of the pipeline affects the other. I stuffed up the 2-week rhythm of the op. So, this means that I have had clones idling in the clonebox under fluoros, in some cases for up to 6 weeks. 

Clones won't be happy for more than a couple of weeks without nutes, so I started giving them a weak (400ppm) nute solution while they were still in the clonebox. These plants have formed some appreciable veg growth as a result, forming a couple of new nodes on each plant. This breaks the zero-veg time procedure normally used in this SoG op, where clones normally only are setting root in the low-light levels of the clonebox. Fluoros will cause appreciable growth if you give them long enough.

The plants that were idled in the clonebox have much more significantly developed root systems than those I usually put in to flower. It will be interesting to see how these plants develop compared to those which get chucked in to flower as soon as they have formed a few roots.



_idled 2-6 weeks on 400ppm nutes, roots are formed fully through the 
cubes (even on the TOP of the cubes), these are nearly rootbound and
show some browning from 'air-pruning'_


_normal root development, 10 days post cutting; the roots you see are
pretty much all they have
_ 
If there's any advantage to letting clones develop longer in the clonebox before flowering them, it's a simple matter to do more clones than I need to build up a stock to get ahead of the 23 plants usually needed to feed into the flowering area every 2 weeks. 


_the experimental batch of essentially pre-vegged clones with lots of roots
and fresh new growth on tips
_


_plants in the tray beside the expeimental lot were put in to flower with
ordinary root development, about 14 days post cutting and are about 3wks
into flower- the expeimental lot are shown on planting day_. 

The veg growth of this mob was significant enough in their long wait that it was necessary to prune the branching on the idled clones, much as I normally do in wks 1 & 3 of veg, before putting these in to flower. ​ ​ We'll see how they go, but I suspect that the greater rootmass development is going to be a plus. Downside is that these could get too tall. Clones normally stop gaining any vert height at 800mm-1m and stop throwing out branching by the end of wk 4 of flowering. 

There's another batch in the clonebox which has also been idling for a while and also have been given nutes while there, so there will be one more batch behind this one that can also be used for comparison. 

Plans at present are to return to the every 2 weeks cloning & harvesting sked. I've skipped doing the last scheduled batch of clones to try to get the plantflow back in order- and I may skip the next batch as well. I trimmed back the mums like I normally would when doing clones but all that nice fresh green growth is now feeding my local compost worms. Lucky bastards. 

If I do find an advantage to idling them for a few weeks, it's easy to work that process in.​


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 26, 2008)

gvega187 said:


> I was wondering what size container you prefer and why. I thought I read you use about a 6.5 by W x 6.5" H. Couldnt you fit about 60 of these in a 4 x 4 tray?


 Heh, when I wrote the lead post in the https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/6592-get-harvest-every-2-weeks.html thread, I misstated the size of the trays (and I can't edit that post). I am not generally accustomed to estimating using imperial measures and did so without checking. The trays are not 4'x4', rather 900mm x 900mm (about 2.7' or 2'8"something). They LOOKED like 4'x'4'! 


> What if you used larger containers? would it help the roots being supported by a larger area of media?


 There's only so much rootmass space that plants in a SoG op will need. The plants don't get very large. They'll need about 2L of volume at minimum (140mm x 140mm pots). My flowering plants don't get anywhere near rootbound in 175mm x 175mm (4L volume) pots, but very old mother plants (more than 8-12 wks old) can get pretty packed in- that's one of the reasons to replace them frequently. 



gvega187 said:


> why would they sell white containers.


Momentary lapse of reason? Only pots of that size available? Pot maker had a bunch of white ones to get rid of? 

You're right, light to the roots is a bad thing and black plastics are better than white, but even what you see under normal lighting conditions as black plastics may not be totally opaque with HID lighting. Hold one up to an HPS light and you'll usually see a deep purple glow through it. However, with significant leaf mass above, shading them, black pots are usually good enough without any additional shielding.


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## gvega187 (Aug 26, 2008)

oh wow, I already bought and drilled holes in two 4 x 4 trays. 

So a 4x4 is only about 1 foot wider than your trays altogether. I guess I wont worry about driving back and returning for 3 x 3's.

What kind of light will I need to properly cover a full table of 4 x 4. Will 1 1000 watt adequately cover the area?

Would two 600's be better suited for the job?


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## DR. VonDankenstine (Aug 26, 2008)

LOL-
Things are real dry around this area--but there is an upside-my flowering room hi's never go over 60 R/H so I don't have mold issue's I have to treat-my avg R/H is 52%. Let me know when the FUCT ENG. goes public---I will make sure to get in on the initial offering. side question--what ppm range does that sweettooth like in veg and flowering?.----back to our original FUCT program----I guess your the man with many job titles at the FUCT CORP. It's a great bus model---I know who the hell to call when I have a complaint...


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## fshields1 (Aug 26, 2008)

im not actually sure if its a problem or not cause this is the first time i have cloned. but i have taken a clone from a known, good, healthy female. it took root rather fast and it was small so i have veged it for close to 4 weeks (about 9" tall) and all the leaves and growth looked great. now its been flowering for around a week and a half, and its going through the normal growth spurt, but all the new growth at the top instead of being normal leaves with 7,5,or even 3 blades, they only have 1 single blade? is something wrong or am i just going to have less to trim in the end?

im growing in soil under a 400 watt hps, and feeding with a 15-30-15 at about 3/4 strength.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 26, 2008)

ppm, sorry I missed replying to this. That happens sometimes when there's been a flood of posts. wytberry, if I could ask a favour, please post more queries in fewer posts. Helps me keep up without missing any, thanks. 



platypusmann said:


> Al, since you are the resident expert on SoG, wanted to ask you a question......I am growing in a 4x4 ebb & flow w/40 gal. res, 3" rockwool/hydroton medium, under a 400 watt HID light (MH veg/HPS flower)


ok, sounds good



> three 42 watt CFL's (450 watts actual??)


The equivalent incandescent ratings of CFLs are not significant. Only the lumens figure is of much use in comparing brightness of lights- and it's not the best figure to use for growing plants, but it'll have to do as this is how lamps are labelled.



> I have all factors (temps, RH, VPD, nutes) well under control,


Cool, but what's VPD? Volkswagens per day?  



> and am thinking of starting a SoG. I currently grow 10 plants from seed each grow, and usually get 4 to 6 females that I flower out. When I have had 6, the 400w HPS was not toally adequate to flower them fully...I had alot of little low buds undeveloped on three plants, which is why I added the CFL's.


Yep, SoG pruning will help the yield and avg bud size/density, eliminating the bumfluff lower branch buds, while still using your 400. 



> how many plants you think I could comfortably grow under my lighting


A 400 is good for 8sq ft. Horizontal tube fixtures lay down a rectangular light pattern, about 3:2, longest axis perpendicular to the lamp tube. an area 3.2' x 2.5' is ideal, using only the middle of your 4x4 table. If you want to fill the table, you'll want a 1000HPS. You can fit up to 4 plants per sf using 140mm x 140mm pots or about 32 SoG pruned plants in 8 sq ft. That's pretty high density housing, so you might hold it to 25 if you have any problem getting solid buds on the lower part of the mainstem on your SoG pruned plants. 

You won't need CFLs for fill lighting, but those would probably not have helped your yield too much previously anyway. CFLs in flowering produce fluffy buds compared to HPS. Adding CFLs (even the really big 125W mothers) to HPS is bit like putting a model airplane engine on the nose of your 747 to help out the jet engines. 

You're a prime candidate for SoG as it makes very efficient use of light by elimination of poorly producing small branches, especially good for smaller HPS lamps like the 400. You can do quite a lot with a 400 in SoG, I think you'll like the result.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 26, 2008)

DR. VonDankenstine said:


> LOL-
> Things are real dry around this area--but there is an upside-my flowering room hi's never go over 60 R/H so I don't have mold issue's
> I have to treat-my avg R/H is 52%.


I guess you wouldn't! Most growers would kill for a constant 50%. 


> Let me know when the FUCT ENG. goes public---I will make sure to get in on the initial offering.


You'll be the first on the IPO notice list.  I'll offer a squillion shares at a penny apiece and head for Guataburkinastan like every other capitalist tool. 



> side question--what ppm range does that sweettooth like in veg and flowering?.


1800 veg, 1400 flowering. 



> ----back to our original FUCT program----I guess your the man with many job titles at the FUCT CORP. It's a great bus model---I know who the hell to call when I have a complaint...


Oh no- we _*do *_have a customer satisfaction assurance department. Just dial 1-800-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. We'll take care of you _tout suite._ 



fshields1 said:


> all the new growth at the top instead of being normal leaves with 7,5,or even 3 blades, they only have 1 single blade?


It sounds like you have taken a clone from a plant that was in flower. 

Clones should be taken only from plants in full veg growth mode, never having been exposed to 12/12 light. If the mother is in flower and the clones are to be vegged, they will take several weeks to return to veg state. In the meantime, they will throw out mixed habit growth, single bladed fan leaves, webbed fan leaves, may have large seed bracts at the nodes and may gain vertical height slowly, which appears to be what is happening for you. You can look at a re-vegging plant like a very elongated bud.

You _*can*_ fully revert plants like this to veg mode, but it takes a while, at least 4 weeks and usually more like 6-8 before veg habit growth fully re-establishes. The plants must be kept in 18-24H light (pref 24h) and pruned back a few times until all the new growth is coming up in the full vegetative habit with 5-7 or more bladed fan leaves and quick vertical height gains. 

This re-vegging process takes a long time because it's a circumstance that the plant isn't evolved to handle. Cannabis is an annual, sprouts in spring when days are getting longer, grows vegetatively in the long summer days and flowers with the shortening days in autumn, going to seed and dying off, relying on the seed to start the next generation. It doesn't normally encounter lengthening days as plants normally die off in winter. 

Sorry about this if you were in a hurry!


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

i feel like im talking to jorge(al b fuct)cervantes thanks alot!!


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

al b another question i want to know what u think of this ([email protected]?kwh is that 9 cents


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 26, 2008)

gvega187 said:


> oh wow, I already bought and drilled holes in two 4 x 4 trays.


Sorry about that. 



> So a 4x4 is only about 1 foot wider than your trays altogether. I guess I wont worry about driving back and returning for 3 x 3's.


A 4x4 is about 1ft wider and 2ft shorter than a pair of 900mm x 900mm tryas. 


> What kind of light will I need to properly cover a full table of 4 x 4. Will 1 1000 watt adequately cover the area?


A 1000 would easily do 4x4, I use a 1000 over each pair of 900 x 900 trays approximately 3x6'. 


> Would two 600's be better suited for the job?


No, a cooltubed 1000 can lay down more lumens per sq metre (lux) and is cheaper to operate than a pair of 600s. 

Before cooltubes, my four 900x900 tray system probably would have worked better with 4x 600 due to the spacing requirements of an uncooltubed 1000. With cooltubes, 1000s can be run much closer to the plants than without, taking full advantage of their 150-165,000 lumen brightness.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 26, 2008)

wyteberrywidow said:


> i feel like im talking to jorge(al b fuct)cervantes thanks alot!!


Thanks. 



wyteberrywidow said:


> al b another question i want to know what u think of this ([email protected]?kwh is that 9 cents


sounds like 9.0781 cents/kwh to me.

Could you please _*not*_ put up multiple single line posts? Please put your comments and queries in fewer posts. You're flooding the thread and it makes it hard for me to keep up.


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

newb question i know but i really dont know if thats 9 cents a kwh


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

u think its closer to 10 cents??


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## Chumlie (Aug 26, 2008)

All my plants look healthy except two in the back got heat stress from some milkcarton light holder I had to use until I got my light today. So hopefully they will be ok. My to major problems seem to be the week older plant with the past nute burn. Has healthy color(except, nute burn), but leaves are looking sad pointing down. Could it be the nute are not high enough for it? 

My two good looking "girls" have white tiny dots on the leaves, dosen't seem to be sticking up from the leaves looks like part of the leaves. Is this fungus? I'll see if I can get pics.


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

i wanna run my 400 watt for veg being its my first grow


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## fitzyno1 (Aug 26, 2008)

Al B,
what's the best way to stress a female into hermie, with the least risk of killing her.
I want to take the pollen from the hermie, to pollenate another female of the same strain. To end up with female seeds.
In otherwords, i want to keep seeds from the same strain.

And yes, showing her the electricity bill would put her under alot of stress LOL


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 26, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Has healthy color(except, nute burn), but leaves are looking sad pointing down. Could it be the nute are not high enough for it?


no, nutrient strength is not indicated by leaf angle... You're aiming to give the plant enough nutrient that it grows without burn or deficiency. If you have that, you're in the middle of the bell curve. More is not generally better when growing plants. There's too little, just right and _*dead.*_

When leaves droop, it can be caused by root disease/overwatering, excessively high temps or RH, some other causes. It's never a good sign.


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 26, 2008)

just until i sex the plants so i can see what im using to clone and what im getting rid of i just dont want to kill my elecriicity bill it aint the point of the bill its the point of the peoples if u know what i mean


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 26, 2008)

wyteberrywidow said:


> i wanna run my 400 watt for veg being its my first grow


This is a meaningless post. 

If you don't stop flooding the thread, I will add you to my ignore list and stop replying to you. This is your 3rd and last warning. 



fitzyno1 said:


> Al B,
> what's the best way to stress a female into hermie, with the least risk of killing her.


Flower it for a long time, perhaps 12 weeks. It'll go hermie. Also, interrupting its night cycle with a couple hours of light when it should be in darkness can trigger hermaphrodism.


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## fitzyno1 (Aug 26, 2008)

wyteberrywidow said:


> just until i sex the plants so i can see what im using to clone and what im getting rid of i just dont want to kill my elecriicity bill it aint the point of the bill its the point of the peoples if u know what i mean


wtf.........


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## Chumlie (Aug 26, 2008)

How do you look for root disease when there not visivle yet, I think? My temps are high, but not that high 77-80 (it is mex shit); also the others seem find. 

The ones I know that are heat stress have a very slight rolling drop, while its just slope gradually down. My RH stay at hight 50 low 60 except when A/C on then it's at low 50 sometimes low 40. 
Maybe to much water but all aeroponic people even the "guys" at the store say water every other 15 min, yet they gave me nute burn so switch the night to 15/45.
It seems all the other plants are fine. 
What do you think about the white specs, are you just waiting on pics?


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## fshields1 (Aug 26, 2008)

> It sounds like you have taken a clone from a plant that was in flower.
> 
> Clones should be taken only from plants in full veg growth mode, never having been exposed to 12/12 light. If the mother is in flower and the clones are to be vegged, they will take several weeks to return to veg state. In the meantime, they will throw out mixed habit growth, single bladed fan leaves, webbed fan leaves, may have large seed bracts at the nodes and may gain vertical height slowly, which appears to be what is happening for you. You can look at a re-vegging plant like a very elongated bud.
> 
> ...


 
no there is no hurry, i just thought i was wierd. but the clones were taken from a plant that had never seen 12/12, only 24/0 and once the clone took root they were veged for 4-5 weeks more with normal growth before i flowered when they got to be around 9-10 inches. thats when it started its growth sport and loosing leaves


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## fitzyno1 (Aug 26, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Flower it for a long time, perhaps 12 weeks. It'll go hermie. Also, interrupting its night cycle with a couple hours of light when it should be in darkness can trigger hermaphrodism.


I think the second option would be more plauseable to me, Cheers Al


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## Chumlie (Aug 26, 2008)

Does over watering also depend on strain too. Cause I got roots Man! Yea! and it seems to be nothing wrong. There white and not slimmy, So maybe its overwatering or something else. 
DOMt...DOMt...DOMM!(scary plot thickens)


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## brontobrandon1 (Aug 26, 2008)

al b i have spider mites in my flowering room i can see a couple on my flowering plant would spraying the bug spray i got from the grow store be good for the plants, i mean i thought it would be bad but its worth it to save a plant i guess ya no??

thanks peace


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## drgreenGMX (Aug 26, 2008)

Hi Al good to meet you

i have a large ro machine in my house. This was purchased way before my growing days (just about to harvest my first plant) as i have a couple marine fish tanks. Just wondering if you think i should be using the ro? I have read your comments on it earlier being unnescecary but its basically free for me, would it perhaps be worth me using an ro and tap water split to get both clean water and the elements? Or would ro perhaps even be holding my plants back in some way? (growing hydro in a wilma 4 pot system)



thanks


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> How do you look for root disease when there not visivle yet


 Poorly developed or browned roots are a telltale.All should be bright white and pert. How do the roots look?



> The ones I know that are heat stress have a very slight rolling drop, while its just slope gradually down. My RH stay at hight 50 low 60 except when A/C on then it's at low 50 sometimes low 40.


 That's in the ballpark. 



> Maybe to much water but all aeroponic people even the "guys" at the store say water every other 15 min, yet they gave me nute burn so switch the night to 15/45.


 It's nute strength that causes nute burn, not watering frequency or duration. 



> It seems all the other plants are fine.


 OK, then as a process of elimination, it's not a condition common to all the plants such as RH & air temp (and your RH & temp are OK anyway, right?).



> What do you think about the white specs, are you just waiting on pics?


 yep, need pix. Thanks. 



fshields1 said:


> no there is no hurry, i just thought i was wierd.


 It is weird, but characteristic of a certain condition.



> but the clones were taken from a plant that had never seen 12/12, only 24/0


 That's the weird part. The character you described sounds just like a re-vegging plant. 

Is there any possibility that the lighting on the mum was not what you expect, such as the light cycling on & off instead of remaining on all the 18+h/day? This can happen when an HID lamp tube is nearing end of life. 



> and once the clone took root they were veged for 4-5 weeks more with normal growth before i flowered


 oh, OK, these plants are flowering now. It could be a response to shifting into flowering habit, but it doesn't sound usual. Got pix posted? Link?


> when they got to be around 9-10 inches. thats when it started its growth sport and loosing leaves


 hm, ok, once I get a look at the flowering plant, I'll have a better idea. 



fitzyno1 said:


> I think the second option would be more plauseable to me, Cheers Al


 OK, let me know how it goes. By interrupting its night cycle every night for a week or so, you should be able to induce a herm. If you have a separate lighted area where you can do this so you're not affecting other plants, a timer can do the odd sked for you instead of you diving in to the dark area and retrieving the plant to expose it to light every day. 



Chumlie said:


> Does over watering also depend on strain too.


 No, all strains should behave relatively similarly in that regard.


> Cause I got roots Man! Yea! and it seems to be nothing wrong. There white and not slimmy, So maybe its overwatering or something else.


 Usually with overwatering, you see browned or stunted roots. Yours are in good shape per your description, so I'm not sure that's the cause. 



> DOMt...DOMt...DOMM!(scary plot thickens)


 Yep, the thick is plottening. 



brontobrandon1 said:


> al b i have spider mites in my flowering room i can see a couple on my flowering plant would spraying the bug spray i got from the grow store be good for the plants, i mean i thought it would be bad but its worth it to save a plant i guess ya no??


If you have mites, you have to clean the entire op, vac everything, thoroughly spray all plants esp under leaves and all surfaces in the grow. Even the general area and path leading to the grow must be cleaned and treated. Plants near the entry to the house should be checked and treated or removed if infested. Azaleas are mite hotels. 

Mites are bastards and very persistent. All treatment has to be done at once to have any hope of getting rid of the bastards. Half-measures will guarantee they will be back and likely resistant to the miticide. Short acting miticides are the tool for the job, like Avid or any other miticide containing abamectin, aka avamectin. 

Avid has a 14 day withholding period post-treatment. After that, it is OK to consume or smoke the treated plant material.



drgreenGMX said:


> Just wondering if you think i should be using the ro?


It won't generally hurt anything; you should be getting most of your Ca & Mg from your nutes. Micronute deficiencies might be possible i.e Fe, Zn, so if pH is right (5.8 ) and yet you see Fe or Zn defs on the RO water, you can add supplements or switch back to tap water.


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 27, 2008)

not to anger you with sillyness.....but you got the 420 post....yay....but you should have been smoking. shame on you


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> not to anger you with sillyness.....but you got the 420 post....yay....but you should have been smoking. shame on you


huh? I see post 420 in this thread by someone else. 



> #*420*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2008)

Just to be clear, I don't mind a bit of silliness. Humour is always encouraged. Meaningless, unnecessary posts or 5 posts where one would do fine mainly contribute to clutter and make it hard for me to keep up. I miss queries when the thread is flooded, that much _*does*_ annoy me.


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 27, 2008)

i got 4 cfl 23 watt bright white to add wit my shoplights the 23 watt bulbs are rated at 1500 lumens so that 6000 and my shop lights are reg 40 watts at 3300 lumens cool white and warm white tube in each thats just so they can get strong so they can b ready 4 the 400 watt.r the bright white bulbs good and is 9300 lumens good to start them off or will i need more light??


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2008)

The lumen figures cannot be added and result in a meaningful figure. The lumen is a measure of intensity. Putting one lamp next to another does not make either one brighter. If you have 2x 1500lm lamps next to another, the brightness is 1500lm. If you are illuminating a space with a 1500lm lamp next to a 3000lm lamp, the intensity is 3000lm. The distance from the lamps to the lighted surface will determine the lux (lumens per sq metre) applied to the surface. 

The shop lights by themselves, suspended horizontally above the plants, are probably enough for plants less than 200mm or so tall.


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 27, 2008)

ok so i dont need the cfls there then ill just use the shoplights then i just thought u add more lights itll be better being more lumens but like isaid b4 u explain very well and just from this thread alone i learned alot


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 27, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> huh? I see post 420 in this thread by someone else.


 
ok i meant 4:20 a.m......but it occurs to me it might be a different time so ...i'm a tard.


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 27, 2008)

al b quick question im starting from seeds i ordered and i got to find my females from males(hopin all fems) so i was reading and i decided to go with taking a clone from each but i want to know the time limit b4 i should cut to take clones and wont hurt my plants from growing while still gainin succesful clones, some people say cut at a foot an some people say wait till 2 months whats ur best answer or suggestion??


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## gvega187 (Aug 27, 2008)

al I have a few cloning questions for you...again  tanks 4 u helps already

1- Is it extremely important to disrupt cells and b sure to take 45 degree cuts? I often forget to to these things and was wondering how it will affect my trays. 

2- will cloning work at all without doing these things?

3- Does moving around your tray and picking up cubes/plugs mess with their ability to generate roots? 

4-What do you think about cloning with the stem? Wish i had a picture, but I mean when you have a very small node and you cut the stem below that node to lengthen the cut, thus making a decent sized clone. Does the thick stem produce roots as well as a normal branch clone?


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## Chumlie (Aug 27, 2008)

Hey what up Al, that heat element that I got is pretty close to the deep finned heat sink, and do you know specficaly what type of aluminum resistors that you use?(size,power limit, etc)


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## Chumlie (Aug 27, 2008)

What up Al hey that heat element I have is sort of like a heat sink. It looks like this, but compare to the pic on the screen witch on my screen is almost 3". The one I have is about 6" long with a solid round rectangle core were the finns go all the way around. 

Can you tell me the type of aluminum resistors you are using.

I determine to make this SoB THaNks

Sorry about the repeat, I didn't thing the other went in


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2008)

wyteberrywidow said:


> i want to know the time limit b4 i should cut to take clones and wont hurt my plants from growing


 Cannabis is not just extremely tolerant of pruning- it quite likes it. It will very quickly replace any plant material you cut off. 

I cut back my mums really quite severely, every 2 weeks:





_just after cuttings_





_2 weeks later_

Some commonsense is needed- you don't want to prune a couple-week old seedling which only has a couple pair of 'true' leaves. When you prune, you must leave some nodes and a couple sets of leaves. If you cut the plant back so there is only a mainstem and no nodes or leaves, the plant will die. As you see, I only leave a couple of sets of leaves on each plant, but they come roaring back in 14 days.

It doesn't do you any good to try to sex a plant before it is sexually mature (showing preflowers at the nodes), which usually occurs about 6-8 weeks under veg cycle light after cracking beans.



gvega187 said:


> al I have a few cloning questions for you...again  tanks 4 u helps already


 no worries. 



> 1- Is it extremely important to disrupt cells and b sure to take 45 degree cuts? I often forget to to these things and was wondering how it will affect my trays.


 Lightly scraping the stem surface in a few places with the back of the scalpel blade disrupts the tissues enough to trigger formation of root nodes when they're kept in a warm damp environment (ie inside a RW cube). The 45 deg angle cut exposes a larger area of the end of the capillaries (think about a piece of tubing cut on an angle) which helps with water uptake while the plant has no roots. 



> 2- will cloning work at all without doing these things?


 It will but rooting will be slower without the few scrapes and water uptake may not be so good without the angle cut.



> 3- Does moving around your tray and picking up cubes/plugs mess with their ability to generate roots?


 No, should have no effect. The only thing you want to avoid when handling plants is wiggling the stem around in the RW cube which may cause the hole in the RW to enlarge and cause the fit of the material around the stem to be loose. The stem must fit tightly in the RW with no air gap between the stem and the RW where air may enter the cube. 


> 4-What do you think about cloning with the stem? Wish i had a picture, but I mean when you have a very small node and you cut the stem below that node to lengthen the cut, thus making a decent sized clone. Does the thick stem produce roots as well as a normal branch clone?


 Thicker stems root better and faster than thinner ones. 

​ ​ 
The stack on the left all have stems of about 4mm or less. The stack on the right all are over 5.5mm. of course, all these were cut at the same time. ​ ​ 

You don't need to bury a node, as is often recommended, either. If conds in the clonebox are right, pieces of stem without a node buried in the media root just as quicklyas those with a node. 



Chumlie said:


> Hey what up Al, that heat element that I got is pretty close to the deep finned heat sink, and do you know specficaly what type of aluminum resistors that you use?(size,power limit, etc)


 I used 25 watt aluminium bodied wirewound resistors with mounting tabs. For 120V, the paralleled resistors should be about 576 ohms. For 240V, they should be about 2.3K ohms. 



Chumlie said:


> What up Al hey that heat element I have is sort of like a heat sink. It looks like this, but compare to the pic on the screen witch on my screen is almost 3". The one I have is about 6" long with a solid round rectangle core were the finns go all the way around.


 Is this the heat sink you intend to use or is this just a pic of a heat sink?


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## Chumlie (Aug 27, 2008)

This is the heat sing that closely resembles mine(little diff. in disign)
I was going to do something like this. With the heat sing on the inside.


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## Stoney McFried (Aug 27, 2008)

Hey Al, I made something with your name on it, hope ya like it!


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## HATCH (Aug 27, 2008)

Al.,The Claw, What's Causes It???,,,& How Can You Treat It????,,, Or What Can Be Done To Prevent It From Happening???,,,,,Thank's


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> This is the heat sing that closely resembles mine(little diff. in disign)
> I was going to do something like this. With the heat sing on the inside.


 Sorry, I can't tell much from that img. Doesn't even look like a heat sink. Looks like a doorstop with a fan on it. 



Stoney McFried said:


> Hey Al, I made something with your name on it, hope ya like it!


 hahahhahaha, very qute. 



HATCH said:


> Al.,The Claw, What's Causes It???,,,& How Can You Treat It????,,, Or What Can Be Done To Prevent It From Happening???,,,,,Thank's


What's 'the claw' ?


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## drgreenGMX (Aug 27, 2008)

thanks for your reply....


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## Chumlie (Aug 27, 2008)

The door stop thinging is two triangle peices of wood on a flat peice with the heat sink inside of it. The fan will blow air into the device onto the heat sink that will be on the inside of the drying box. Maybe Ill have to do some work on the hot air directional device.


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## HATCH (Aug 27, 2008)

HATCH said:


> Al.,The Claw, What's Causes It???,,,& How Can You Treat It????,,, Or What Can Be Done To Prevent It From Happening???,,,,,Thank's


I Didn't Really Know What Else To Call It???,,,So I Took Some Pic's Of It...


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## iloveit (Aug 27, 2008)

Hello again Al B,
Its been a while since Ive asked you a few questions so heres another:

Ive got a new cupboard  (partitioned for my clones, mother & flowering) but Ive noticed there are a few small pin holes  (they really are that tiny) which allow light to leak out & in, Ive tried sealing them using silicone sealant but it doesnt help much Im going to block the holes next week with foil tape or/& mylar but will these tiny holes really make a difference during the night cycle or is that a silly question?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> The door stop thinging is two triangle peices of wood on a flat peice with the heat sink inside of it. The fan will blow air into the device onto the heat sink that will be on the inside of the drying box. Maybe Ill have to do some work on the hot air directional device.


You need to move air _*through*_ the box, not just circulate it around inside the box.







Please note that the 470 ohm value was for a previous 240V version which used two 25W resistors in series. I've revised the circuit design since to this:




R values for 120V version are 576 ohms, 2.3K ohms for 240V.


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## Chumlie (Aug 27, 2008)

Yea, I got the idea, I just need to work on the air director heat sink holder thing. 

So you don't put them in a jar and put them in the freezer(not sure what that does)?

Also do you use bloom supplements, cause I bought this tomato bloom spray, I thought it may work on the bud too.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2008)

HATCH said:


> I Didn't Really Know What Else To Call It???,,,So I Took Some Pic's Of It...


Looks like nute burn. See Marijuana Plant Abuse search the page to 'nitrogen toxicity'

What's your nute strength, pH, air temp, watering system and sked & media type?


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## Chumlie (Aug 27, 2008)

Hey do you need the sink if inside the box stays at 75 to 80, cuz Im sure mine will in the enviroment.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> So you don't put them in a jar and put them in the freezer(not sure what that does)?


No, I don't do that- and it doesn't sound like a terribly good idea. 

Freezing buds while still wet would give you something like frozen spinach. When defrosted, the buds would still be wet and would probably be a green floppy mess of goo. 

Since water expands when frozen, water in the plant material would form ice crystals and rupture the cells, meaning the plant matter would be wilted and floppy when defrosted. 

Freezing _*after*_ drying the buds down to about 1-2% water content (usual smoking content) would seem a bit more sensible but just as happens when you freeze a loaf of bread, since water expands when frozen, whatever water is in the buds would be forced out and would accumulate as ice crystals within the jar. If the water content was right when the buds were frozen, they'd be too dry if retrieved from the jar, leaving the ice crystals behind.




> Also do you use bloom supplements, cause I bought this tomato bloom spray, I thought it may work on the bud too.


I use Canna's PK-13-14 for plants in wk6 of flowering only. Effective flowering supplements are usually a P or P & K additive. 

Be wary of 'magic sauces' where the active ingredient is not identified. If they're not prepared to tell you what's in it, don't be prepared to part with your cash. Some additives are downright silliness; I've seen some containing beeswax and/or brewer's yeast, heaven only knows what those are supposed to do, but there's no peer-reviewed botanical science supporting their use as a flowering aid. 

Cannabis and tomato plants are distant herbaceous cousins. Some growth or flowering promotants for tomatoes will be useful with cannabis but some will not. Hard to make any blanket statements. If what you have contains P or K, it's probably useful for cannabis.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Hey do you need the sink if inside the box stays at 75 to 80, cuz Im sure mine will in the enviroment.


Several people have built copies of my bud dryer without the heating element. It'll still work but not in 3 days from manicuring to smoking. It will be more dependent upon the RH of the ambient air drawn through the box and the drying time will vary accordingly. Many folks say that heaterless versions dry to a smokable water content in 6-8 days. 

The main purpose for the heating element is to reduce the RH of the air drawn into the box. Warming the ambient air (presuming it is below 29C) only a degree or two C can drop the RH of the air 10 or even 20%. The lower the RH of the air passed through the box, the more water it can pick up on its way through, speeding drying. 

If you live in desert-like humidity conditions, you may never need the heating element.


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## HATCH (Aug 27, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Looks like nute burn. See Marijuana Plant Abuse search the page to 'nitrogen toxicity'
> 
> What's your nute strength, pH, air temp, watering system and sked & media type?


Thank's For The Chart,,Read Through It..?????

PPM Is, 1,460
PH. Is, 6.3
Air Temp Is, 79*
Watering System Is, Aeroponic's,,, Schedule Is, They Get Misted 15min. On Every 2-Hour's
Media Is, 2" Net Pot's, The Plant's With The Problem Are In 2" Rapid Starter Plug's

I Have Noticed That The Plug's Hold Alot Of Moisture & Stay Wet, So I Have Started Cloning With-Out Any Kind Of Media, Just In The 2" Basket's With A 2" Neoprene Collar, With Great Success....


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## VictorVIcious (Aug 27, 2008)

Hey Al, do you have a suggestion on the depth you should put you plants at final transplant. It seems to me mine do better when they are closer to the surface?? VV


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2008)

HATCH said:


> PH. Is, 6.3


too high. Needs to be 5.8. 






_chart st0len from St0ney on gardensecure.com_

At 6.3 you are locking out P, K, Ca, Mn Fe & B. The burn is as a result of far too much N being available to the plant in comparison to the availability of the other nutes. Correct and maintain the pH at 5.8 and new growth should sort out. ​ 


> Media Is, 2" Net Pot's, The Plant's With The Problem Are In 2" Rapid Starter Plug's


Media is (what) in 2" netpots?

Are all plants in 'rapid starter plugs'? What material are these plugs made from? Are the plugs in contact with nutrient mist and are becoming saturated? Are there any pellets between the plugs and the mist?



> I Have Noticed That The Plug's Hold Alot Of Moisture & Stay Wet, So I Have Started Cloning With-Out Any Kind Of Media, Just In The 2" Basket's With A 2" Neoprene Collar, With Great Success...


Yep, it'd act like an aerocloner. If it's reliable for you, go with it. However, it kinda ties up your DWC system as clones need veg cycle lighting. 



VictorVIcious said:


> Hey Al, do you have a suggestion on the depth you should put you plants at final transplant. It seems to me mine do better when they are closer to the surface?? VV


Yes, I'd put them as close to the surface of the media as is possible, yet deep enough for the media to still be able to hold the plants vertical while they are sending down roots. Roots generally seek downward, so planting near the surface will allow the greatest amt of media to be filled by roots.


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 27, 2008)

so al b u suggest to wait 4 the plant to start showing pre flowers b4 i take clones in the veg state i was looking at the video on utube and the mr green takes clones at 2 months wait till about two weeks then puts one clone from each plant in the flower room under 12 12 for about 1 week to 1 and a half thats when pre flowers show then i figure i will know the sex from the plant i cloned from do u think thats a good idea?


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## Chumlie (Aug 27, 2008)

Al this is the sick one the three week old. Yesterday it seem all that was wrong wat the nute burn on the first tree leaves, but now the second set of fans have burn marks too. Also one of them has the black, purple blodges that you can see top and bottom. I thinks there is some bug. Here's a pic I seperated just a little while ago. I have video of the op. Sorry photos blurry, but trust me the blodges are there.


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 27, 2008)

all eight of my seeds cracked and i put it in rockwool in dark place till they sprout once they sprout im gonna put 3/3 w.w and purps in the rain forest and start building my ebb flow and the other two remaining ill just plant in soil just to see how that goes. i just wonder about the rainforest is it a good thing to have it on 24 hours i mean it says 24 hours on just until the roots are suspended then turn it off only at light off hours


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## Chumlie (Aug 27, 2008)

Hey al do you know how to load film are photos with out it leading back to you?


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## Phinxter (Aug 27, 2008)

al i have recently picked up a 39in X 39in x 7ft high grow tent 
a 1000 watt with cool tube cooled by a 6in inline passes strait thru dumping out a dryer vent to outside i use 2 oscilating fans for air circulation and a 424 cfm 6 inch fan and carbon filter combo and currently only have a passive ait intake by way of a 6 inch port opened with a light trap on the outside i will be making atleast 1 grown in soil to get the cash up to go hydro my 2 questions are 
do you think i will need an intake fan ?? 
and how many plants would you try to put in for a first run in such a tent ? i was debating on putting 9 WW in 3 gallon pots would you do more or less in soil ?
the temp of the room the tent is in is a constant 68f 
my mum is under a 250 hps and clones under a 105w CFL in another room
tent will be flowering only


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2008)

wyteberrywidow said:


> so al b u suggest to wait 4 the plant to start showing pre flowers b4 i take clones in the veg state


which takes abt 6-8 wks from cracking beans.


> i was looking at the video on utube and the mr green takes clones at 2 months wait till about two weeks then puts one clone from each plant in the flower room under 12 12 for about 1 week to 1 and a half thats when pre flowers show


no, preflowers show while the plant is still vegging. That's how you know the plant is sexually mature. 



> then i figure i will know the sex from the plant i cloned from do u think thats a good idea?


that's one of two ways to show sex, yes.


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## HATCH (Aug 27, 2008)

OK, I'll Get The PH Down To 5.8, & keep It There. Thank's.

You Asked Media (What)??,,I Have Been Using The 2" Net Pot's With The Rapid Starter Plug's, For a Long Time, I Don't Like That They Hold So Much Water & Stay Wet, In The Summer It Causes Root-Rot Bad. Now I Just Have Been Using The 2" Net Pot's With No Media. ( I Got The Method From StinkBud )

1) Pic. Is Of The Plug's, It Will Show You What They Are Derived From.
2) Is One Of The Plant's I'm Having Problem's With, 2" Net Pot With A Plug.
3) Is One of The Plant's With Just The 2" Net Pot With A Neoprene Collar.
4,5) Are More Pic's Of The Root's, With Just The Net Pot.
6) Is of The top Of That Plant,,As You Can See They Are Doing Well.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2008)

wyteberrywidow said:


> i just wonder about the *rainforest*


 is that some sort of hydroponic system? I don't know all the brand names, only the sort of watering system they actually are.What sort is this? 



> is it a good thing to have it on 24 hours i mean it says 24 hours on just until the roots are suspended then turn it off only at light off hours


 Plants don't need watering in lights off in any system. 



Chumlie said:


> Hey al do you know how to load film are photos with out it leading back to you?


 WTF are you talking about?



Phinxter said:


> do you think i will need an intake fan ??


You may not. If you can hold the temps to 24-26C with intake air at 24C or below and your present gear, skip it. If you can't keep the room air to within 2C of the room air, try adding an intake fan. 



> and how many plants would you try to put in for a first run in such a tent ?


As many as 4 per sq ft with proper SoG pruning.



> i was debating on putting 9 WW in 3 gallon pots would you do more or less in soil ?


Sorry, can't advise you on soil. 



> the temp of the room the tent is in is a constant 68f


Good if a little cool. You want 24-26C.



> clones under a 105w CFL


Overkill. A couple of 10-20W CFLs will do for clones. They don't need much light. Save the not so compact CFL for something like vegging mums.


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## Chumlie (Aug 27, 2008)

I may be wrong here, but when you upload photos don't they show who up loaded them, and where(ip address are some shit)?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2008)

HATCH said:


> OK, I'll Get The PH Down To 5.8, & keep It There. Thank's.
> 
> You Asked Media (What)??,,I Have Been Using The 2" Net Pot's With The Rapid Starter Plug's, For a Long Time, I Don't Like That They Hold So Much Water & Stay Wet, In The Summer It Causes Root-Rot Bad.


It would. They're also made of organic materials, which can support mould. 

Starter cubes are intended to be absorbent. If you expose them to constant mist, they'll get saturated and stay that way. There needs to be some clay pellets or some other less-absorbent medium loaded in the netpots in between the starter plug and the mist. Once plants have roots out of the bottoms of the starter medium, then they can be place in the pellets in your netpots, but not before. Without a layer of pellets, the plugs will always be kept too wet. 




> 2) Is One Of The Plant's I'm Having Problem's With, 2" Net Pot With A Plug.
> 3) Is One of The Plant's With Just The 2" Net Pot With A Neoprene Collar.
> 4,5) Are More Pic's Of The Root's, With Just The Net Pot.
> 6) Is of The top Of That Plant,,As You Can See They Are Doing Well.


The plant might have a few green leaves, but those roots look awful, I'm VERY surprised that plant's not dead. There's some serious root disease going on there. Roots should be bright white and turgid, never floppy & brown. 

Nute temp is critical in dwc ops. It must be kept at about 19-26C. Dissolved O2 is forced out of the water above 26. 

You need to be treating your nute soln with H2O2 50% grade @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days. This will kill the pathogens and add O2 to the rootzone.


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 27, 2008)

the gh rainforest is a aero system (so it says) it has a water pump in a 7 gallon bucket with a pvc pipe connected going to the lid, the lid has a diffuser that when the water is being pumped up it sprays water to the coco liners with the hydroton and rockwool in it and it does not stop spraying it just waters until i turn it off


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## HATCH (Aug 28, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> It would. They're also made of organic materials, which can support mould.
> 
> Starter cubes are intended to be absorbent. If you expose them to constant mist, they'll get saturated and stay that way. There needs to be some clay pellets or some other less-absorbent medium loaded in the netpots in between the starter plug and the mist. Once plants have roots out of the bottoms of the starter medium, then they can be place in the pellets in your netpots, but not before. Without a layer of pellets, the plugs will always be kept too wet.
> 
> ...


This Is Not DWC,,,They Are Aeroponic Pod's That Drain Into The Main Res.,The Root's Just Hang in The Air Inside The Pod's, They Are Not Submerged in Water, They Get Misted,,,The Picture's Don't Do The Root's Justice, The Dark Stuff Is Liquid Karma. I Use HydroGuard For My Root Guard,, Botanicare Say's Not To Use H2O2, All My Nut's & Suppliment's Are Organic & It Will Kill The Benefcial Microorganisms Present In The Pure Blend & Liquid Karma.

But Any Way Thank's


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 28, 2008)

HATCH said:


> This Is Not DWC,,,They Are Aeroponic Pod's That Drain Into The Main Res.,The Root's Just Hang in The Air Inside The Pod's, They Are Not Submerged in Water, They Get Misted,,


DWC and aeroponic systems behave nearly nearly identically. Nute soln temp in aero isn't as critical as the roots are not in the nute soln, but all else ie use of H2O2 is the same. 



> ,The Picture's Don't Do The Root's Justice, The Dark Stuff Is Liquid Karma.


Does them justice enough for me to know there's serious problems! Even if the brown colour is caused by an additive (if so, why aren't all of the roots stained same colour?), the root development is very poor. That plant's in big trouble. 



> I Use HydroGuard For My Root Guard,, Botanicare Say's Not To Use H2O2, All My Nut's & Suppliment's Are Organic & It Will Kill The Benefcial Microorganisms Present In The Pure Blend & Liquid Karma.


Ah... quite so, organic nutes don't allow use of H2O2. Without H2O2, you rely on competing organisms to control pathogens- and yours are being wayyyyyy lazy. 

If I were you, I'd reconsider the organic trip. It's MUCH harder to manage a hydroponic system without being able to use H2O2. 'Organic' doesn't mean 'better' or 'safer'; it means the nutrient has been sourced from decomposed organic matter. 

If you want to use organics, have fun! I can't help you.


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 28, 2008)

al b question since im doing a smal op right now while my other grow room is in constuction for budding i wanted to ask since i have small closet and a 400 watt can i just hang my light up outside my closet and when its time for the light to come on i put my six site system under it and light off i put the system back in the closet for dark hours so that way i got air circulation no temp problems and a perfect place for my plants to sleep but remember its only temp till i can get either a bigger closet or spend money on a squirrel cage fan. or all together thats a bad idea moving my plant in and out of a closet thru light cycles


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## saine420 (Aug 28, 2008)

Ok Al, so now its mt turn to have you repeat yourself, just know I have looked for the post with you covering this in your every 2 weeks harvest, but I just couldn't find. So let me first apologize, you are a good man.

Ok I have a room, right. It has cool tubes bringing cool air through and striate out the attic, right. I have an exhaust fan pulling through a carbon filter and pushing the air into the attic as well.I have a central 3 ton unit cooling my rooms. My blower is in the attic pulling air from there. My temps, everything is great, question is I know you said if you use an aircon you need to also have a fresh air intake into the room, cause of the ac taking a needed element out of the air being pushed back in the room. Do I need that as well seeing I am not recycling the rooms own air back through the ac, I am pulling fresh air through the blower from the attic? Or is it just what the ac does to the air that makes you need the fresh inlet. Sorry for taking your time, but thank you for your help, I have learned tons from you and continue to daily. I could honestly say you have changed my life, believe me I can't say that to many others. Thanks again.


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## thegoods217 (Aug 28, 2008)

Hey Al, first I wanted to thank you for this wealth of knowledge that you have provided to the great member of RIU. I have learned so much these last few days and your success has inspired me to go out and try SoG.

Right now im on my first grow ever and its w/ soil. I am using a 400w MH on 4 plants, 1 bagseed but the plant already smells the room up, the other 3 are blue rhino (blueberry x white rhino). The bagseed is at 6 weeks while the rhino is at 3. I am currently having heat issues w/ the room as the avg temp is around 82-85 f. The room is in a ac'ed house but still having heat issues from the light.

I am ordering a cooltube, squirrel cage fan, and panda plastic this weekend. This should hopefully bring the temps down to the optimum 75 f. 

After I switch to the 400w HPS and figure out the sex of the plants I will begin cloning and the SoG style hydro setup.

I would like to copy your set up, just shrink it down a lil bit. I also have a 600w HPS that I would use for the SoG setup. I have 4, 17 gallon tubs right now. 

My Q's are the following:

What size trays would be good for this setup?
Can I still do the 4 tray method w/ just one 600w HPS? I will also be doing the DIY batwing that you suggested.
What kind of table did you use? I dont want the setup to be too high.
My grow room is upstairs, what do you recommend would be the easiest way to drain the tubs? syphen/use water pump to a hose to the bathtub?? thats the only thing i could think of lol.
What size pumps should i get? 

Thanks alot Al!!

One love


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## HATCH (Aug 28, 2008)

You Have Help Out Al, & It's Very Much Appreciated!!!!!!,,,Thank's


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 28, 2008)

wyteberrywidow said:


> can i just hang my light up outside my closet and when its time for the light to come on i put my six site system under it and light off i put the system back in the closet for dark hours


Sounds like work, but it's your op. Make sure you literally do all that mucking about like clockwork or you'll likely induce hermaphrodism. 



saine420 said:


> Ok Al, so now its mt turn to have you repeat yourself, just know I have looked for the post with you covering this in your every 2 weeks harvest, but I just couldn't find. So let me first apologize, you are a good man.


 thanks.


> Ok I have a room, right.


 right.


> It has cool tubes bringing cool air through and striate out the attic, right.


 right.


> I have an exhaust fan pulling through a carbon filter and pushing the air into the attic as well.


 right.


> I have a central 3 ton unit cooling my rooms.


right.



> My blower is in the attic pulling air from there.


Pulling air from... the air conditioned area of the house?



> My temps, everything is great,


 Would be. 


> question is I know you said if you use an aircon you need to also have a fresh air intake into the room, cause of the ac taking a needed element out of the air being pushed back in the room.


The a/c does not 'take any needed element' out of the air. Don't think I'd have said that.

I was addressing grow rooms with their own aircon unit, as is usual practise. Rooms with their own a/c unit recycle the same airmass repeatedly through the a/c unit. The plants deplete the air of CO2. Thus, the room requires occasional, periodic ventilation to draw in air with more CO2. You can eliminate the ventilation system by bringing in your CO2 with a tank, regulator and controller. 

I think I see what you're doing; sort of a run-to-waste aircon system, drawing cool air from the central air conditioned area and then venting the grow room air out into the attic via your carbon filter. 

This would introduce air with CO2 at normal atmospheric level every time your thermostat kicks on the blower pushing air into the carbon filter. Your room will behave like a non-aircon equipped grow that happens to have air at 24-26C to draw in at all times. Yes, you're already ventilating your room, not recycling the air, so you don't need any other ventilation. 

If you ever do get CO2, you _*may*_ want to have an a/c unit dedicated to the room. Recycling the air through an a/c unit keeps the CO2 in the room while controlling temp & RH. 



> I could honestly say you have changed my life, believe me I can't say that to many others. Thanks again.


  Thanks.


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 28, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> (Sounds like work, but it's your op. Make sure you literally do all that mucking about like clockwork or you'll likely induce hermaphrodism.)


 i can handle moving a 7 gallon bucket back and forth in a closet for about a week or two till i fix up the other room or get a bigger cab i could leav it out of the closet in a big room but i wouldnt have no way of giving it rest thats y im resulting to building a frame next to the closet but i have a little spare room in the back its about 4x3 it leads to my backyard and on the other side is my boiler i can stop light leaks and bleach it out to try and get it clean but i want to know do u think its a good spot to grow being its by the backyard another question is how do i get hermies by lettin light leak thru cracks or moving it in n out of a closet when its time for the light cycle


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 28, 2008)

wyteberrywidow said:


> do u think its a good spot to grow being its by the backyard


Can't really answer that without a guided tour of your place... and I would not recommend posting pix.


> another question is how do i get hermies by lettin light leak thru cracks or moving it in n out of a closet when its time for the light cycle


Interrupting a flowering plant's dark period is a pretty reliable way to induce hermaphrodism.


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 28, 2008)

my best way of describing it is a walk in closet with seperate exit/entrance. one door leads upstairs to a yard the other door to the boilerroom in the middle is a 4x3 room with no light leaks,good ventilation all i would have to do is mylar,pandafilm or just paint the walls white with some leftover paint i have. (potential flower room) i was thinking if anything seal the door up with black heavy duty plastic(the one that leads to the backyard) and all should be fine what do u think???.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 28, 2008)

Sorry, can't picture it, I'd only be guessing. 

Your room has to make certain conditions available to the plant. It's up to you to make the grow room present those conditions. Every space where you might put a grow will have differences, but as long as you can move air through it and exhaust it so it can't be cycled right back in as well as provide safe AC power, you're on the right path.


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 28, 2008)

ill keep u posted on how making that room in to a growroom comes out until then im waiting for my seeds to sprout they r in 1 inch rockwool until they sprout then ill put them in the coco liners with hydroton and in a net pot next week or so ill check my hydrostore for a planter to start making my ebb n flow system. how many plants can i fit in a 2x2 if i want to flower in these trays i think a 3x3 would be overcrowding so i wont be able to get to certain spots as i would with a 2x2 and how many gallon res would i be attempting to get


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 28, 2008)

2.5-4 plants per sq ft, 5L res cap for each plant.


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 28, 2008)

2.5 to 4 lets just say i put 3 per sq ft so i should be able to fit 12 ok so all i need is the pump,fill and drain fittings and planter then i have it, i got a rubbermaid 30 gallon i could use as my res i also got a computer desk that i can use for my planters stand its perfect because i can put the res right under top of the desk and keep it confind because its kinda like a small cabinet i was gonna use it to grow but said ill get better results in a closet if anything i can use it for clones in the future


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## Chumlie (Aug 28, 2008)

This is the second set of fan leaves. Thanks, Al the man


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## newportbeach949 (Aug 28, 2008)

i believe i have to run full strength nutrients now to get rid of the twisting of the leafs, i came across a chart that makes me believe it is related to not enough zinc i believe.. but plants are doing really well here a updated picture,

here is exactly 8 days ago 

tallest was i believe 13 inchs

and below that is today, tallest is 20 inch smallest 15

Today i'm going to the hydro store to grab a couple things but let me know how i'm doing!


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## HAZEOHOLIC (Aug 28, 2008)

Hello AL

I have 2 closets the first one is 88"H X 24"W X 24"D will be use to house the mother plants I know it a small space but 7 plants fits nicely and without touching. My question is will a 250 watt be enough for the mothers? The total height will be 5.5 feet the top shelves will have a ezcloner box with 105 watt CFL. what size intake fan do I need and exhaust fan?

The second closet is 88"H X 60"W X 24"D I could only run 2 trays in that setup I was thinking a 1000 watt is too much for that space and also probable dangerous, I might go with a 600 watt air cooled reflector. I would like to know your input on this, Also again how many what size intake and exhaust fan do i need to vent a space like that?

Would I need to get a switchable ballast from MH to HPS? What would be the best recommended bulb to use? Sorry Al about all these questions thanks again for all your help


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 28, 2008)

newportbeach949 said:


> i believe i have to run full strength nutrients now to get rid of the twisting of the leafs,
> 
> i came across a chart that makes me believe it is related to not enough zinc i believe..


I often see a little leaf blade twist in my very freshest growth. It's usually seen right after I've introduced new clones into the flowering area. It could simply be rapid growth in response to going from fluoros in the clonebox to the 1000HPS in the flowering area. The leaves don't stay twisted- they flatten out as they develop. 

I doubt the Zn deficiency theory. Zn def doesn't cause twisting, rather odd colouration of the leaves. 




> Today i'm going to the hydro store to grab a couple things but let me know how i'm doing!


From what I can see, they look pretty good. 

If you can adjust the white balance on your camera, you can eliminate the orange cast of HPS lighting. You fool the camera into seeing orange-yellow as white. The setting procedure varies by the camera, see your cam's instruction booklet. You may have a setting for 'incandescent' or 'tungsten' lighting which may accomplish this. 

I had adjusted the white balance on my cam just before taking this pic:



Note that the 1000W HPS appears almost white. The camera is adding a lot of blue to the img. which makes the green of the leaves a bit inaccurately rendered. It's a bunch easier to see plant detail than in this shot, where I did not set the white balance on HPS light first:


It's long past due time for you to do your pruning, if you are intending to do a SoG grow. All those long branches on the lower 1/3 of your plants gotta go. 

Since it takes the first 4 weeks of flowering for the plants to fully stop veg growth, they will keep trying to send out long branches until then. It usually requires 2 passes of pruning, once in the end of wk 1 and again in the end of wk 3 or so. 

Learning to prune for SoG may break your heart the first few times you do it, but once you see the results- the larger top colas and lack of fluffy popcorn buds on lower branches- you'll be a convert.


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## newportbeach949 (Aug 28, 2008)

I cloned them under my 150 hps and rooted them in 1in rockwool cubes for a week then put them in the 6x6x6 blocks under my 400hps so they have been under them for 8 days now and the smaller plants are fine but the taller plants are doing the twisties a tad ,

today and tomarow i plan on cloning the jungle below , i wanted them to get bushy enough below so i could take 2-3 cutting off the bottom of each . I gotta love my ez cloner , I think i'll start a journal , my original mother that i took cuttings from will be done in 3-4 weeks shes in soil , 

i'll try and dig out my camera manual to figure out these modes


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 28, 2008)

newportbeach949 said:


> today and tomarow i plan on cloning the jungle below , i wanted them to get bushy enough below so i could take 2-3 cutting off the bottom of each


 Are these plants flowering? If so, that's not the best practise. Don't you have mother plants going somewhere? 

Cuttings taken from plants in flower are notoriously slow to set root. If cuttings taken from a flowering plant are to be vegged (i.e. replacement mums), they must be grown out until they are returned to full veg mode. They will need 6-8 weeks of veg and several passes of pruning to get them to that state. Until then, they will grow in a mixed veg/flower habit; they will produce webbed or single-bladed fan leaves, gain height slowly, have large empty seed bracts at the nodes, etc. 

Cuttings taken from a flowering plant are themselves already in flower. If these cuttings are to be flowered, they won't get the veg growth spurt during wk1-4 of flowering that plants which have always been kept in veg lighting (mothers & clones both in veg light cycle) produce. The resulting plants will be very VERY short, perhaps not even 2x the height of the clone taken from a flowering plant when it went in to flower. 



HAZEOHOLIC said:


> My question is will a 250 watt be enough for the mothers?


Yep, sounds great. 



> The total height will be 5.5 feet the top shelves will have a ezcloner box with 105 watt CFL.


Way too much CFL. Clones don't need to be pounded with light, they only need to be convinced it's daylight for 18+h/day. Swap that 105W unit for 2-3 ordinary grocery store 10-20W CFLs, enough of them that all leaves are within about 100mm of a lamp tube. The 105W unit might be useful vegging mums.


> what size intake fan do I need and exhaust fan?


A ventilation system needs to be able to shift the room's airmass in about 3 mins. Calculate your room volume in cubic feet and divide by 3. That's the minimum CFM rating for the ventilation system. More is gooder. 

If a single exhaust blower (with passive intake/s, which combined are double the area of the exhaust diameter i.e. 6" blower needs 2x 6" dia intake holes) has to do all the work, increase the CFM rating to 1CFM per cu ft of room airmass, i.e. 200 cu ft room gets a 200CFM exhaust.

Remember that axial blowers don't work well into high static pressures caused by carbon filters or long ducts with a lot of bends. Use a centrifugal blower for cases like this. An axial will not get anywhere near its free-air CFM rating when pushing into obstructive loads. 

Intake blowers can always be axials. The room airmass will be at a slightly negative pressure due to the exhaust removing air from the room, meaning the intakes are not pushing into a high static pressure. 

Intake blowers should be rated at about 80-90% of the exhaust blower's CFM rating. This keeps the room at a slightly negative pressure referenced to atmosphere. Any air leaks in your construction will leak air inward rather than out, so all air leaving the op is going through your exhaust blower (and filter if present), making scents easier to control. 



> The second closet is 88"H X 60"W X 24"D I could only run 2 trays in that setup I was thinking a 1000 watt is too much for that space and also probable dangerous, I might go with a 600 watt air cooled reflector.


It's a rough rule of thumb but 50W of HPS light per sq ft will do. Calculate the area of your intended lighted floorspace in sq ft and multiply by 50. There's your lamp size in watts (or close to it). 

The only air-cooled reflector worth having is a cooltube. 



Avoid the box-type 'Euro hood' reflectors. These sometimes don't have intake air duct flanges, may not have a glass cover over the lamp or may only have 100mm duct holes. It's necessary to have a fully closed air path for lamp cooling air and 100mm is too small for anything but a 400. Boxy reflectors are also quite inefficient; they bounce a lot of light right back at the lamp tube. 







Double parabola type 'batwing' reflectors put very nearly all reflected light on the plants instead of back on the tube. 

Cooltubes encase the lamp in glass, which is thermally resistive. They also keep the airflow smooth and very close to the lamp, meaning most of the lamp's heat is leaving with the airflow instead of being allowed to warm the fixture and lose heat by convection into the room's airmass. 



> Would I need to get a switchable ballast from MH to HPS?


I don't see where your need for an MH is. If you're going to do SoG, you won't be vegging any plants aside from mums and the 250HPS will do fine for for that.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 28, 2008)

Forgot to mention that with cooltubes, the ventilation system doesn't have to work as hard or often. 

 

The vast majority of the lighting heat that in non-cooltubed systems triggers the exhaust blower so often is removed by the cooltubes. Ops with cooltubes can thus get away with less ventilation system capacity. I'd still not run a ventilation system any smaller than needed to shift the room's volume in no more than 3 minutes. 

Cooltubes are really a magic bullet for thermal control and stability. The result of cooltubes installed with a closed air circuit along with a separate exhaust (and intake if you like) blower is that the room will stay very close to the 25C setpoint. If your intake air is 23C or less, the room will stay at 25C +/-1C, if your thermostat is that accurate. 

Cooltubes will cause aircon systems (where conditioned air is recirculated within the op) to run much less often, saving mucho dinero. They may even make aircon unnecessary in some cases, where intake air is on the borderline of being too warm (25-26C), as the op will run about 2C above the intake air temp even if all is working well. Much above 25-26C intake air temps and aircon might be unavoidable. 

I'm rarely as enthusiastic about any piece of hardware you can put in a grow op. Cooltubes make all ops work better but micro and closet grows benefit in particular. Small grows have small airmasses and any serious HPS light will warm them up fast. Cooltubes keep the lamp cooling air and the air used by the plants separate. The effect in my op was immediate and dramatic.


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## newportbeach949 (Aug 28, 2008)

nope they have not started flowering, a couple days and then i will probably start 12/12 cycle


i went to my local mj co-op and picked this hindu skunk strain up, vegged for 2 weeks and then cloned her into those plants you see now in the table, the mother has another 3-4 weeks before she is done flowering(I'll post pictures in journal when i create one). I plan to buy some 4 inch mesh pots next cycle with hydroton and putting them in the table, seems a hell of alot easier

edit thats why i plan on cloning the jungle and putting them under some floros for a couple weeks


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## gvega187 (Aug 28, 2008)

omg every time u slide an OP pic in there it makes me want to tear down my entire house and start over lol...tear...

I read that you disapprove of digital ballasts. Is there any instance in which they are better? (240 maybe?)

You have also told me before that you use ONE 1000w HPS for TWO of those roughly 3x3 areas. 

1-So you put the light about where the two trays meet?

2- is it possible more light would benefit even YOUR MIGHT op?

3- Not all batwing reflectors have that butt like profile you mentioned being crucial earlier. Is there a particular company you prefer? Normally they simply curve downwards instead of up and then down if u follow...I am baffled at the amount of turdball reflectors out there. All good growers only recommend cool tubes with wings.

p.s. i started saving all the awesome info I come across in this forum in a word document I like to call Al b. Not'd thanks for my weekly NOTES!!


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## MisterMicro (Aug 28, 2008)

damn al b faqt, your not messin. Hey newport, are you actually on newport beach?


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## rifishman (Aug 28, 2008)

Hey Al,
I've been following your threads for over a year and have had good results. I am showing a few shots of some buds I have. I just pulled a few plants that were at 10 weeks(due to strain) and I am not pleased with the root mass within the pots. 

My ebb and flow is being cycled 3 x a day at 15 min. intervals. I plan to get the digital timer to get the flood time down a bit.

I am using rockwool mini cubes in the pots and in earlier grows i have had a good solid root mass coming out of the pots at harvest.

On a few plants I chopped tonight, I noticed a slight brown in some of the roots at the bottom of the pot.

I want to ask if you think this is root rot and the possible reason why. Could it be the 15 minute (too long) of my flood cycles.

The plants are giving me some fairly decent yields in the past few months. I have some that are around 1 oz (dry) and some less, but I feel part of that was my setup of my cycles and a few other issues that I have figured out and fixed.

What concerns me is that I was expected a fuller root mass and much whiter roots.

Your thoughts and comments.

























Here is some of my bangi haze:


















Peace out and keep up the great work here.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 28, 2008)

newportbeach949 said:


> nope they have not started flowering, a couple days and then i will probably start 12/12 cycle


 Can't tell you _*how*_ happy I am to hear that! 

However, I'm not at all sorry for covering the topic of cloning from flowering plants. There's about 350 other folks reading this thread aside from you and me, who might be able to put that info to use. 



> i went to my local mj co-op and picked this hindu skunk strain up, vegged for 2 weeks and then cloned her into those plants you see now in the table,


 Well done, looks great. 

I know you won't be doing it often, but when you do buy in clones, it's smart to take a jeweler's loupe or strong magnifier with you to check for mites. Also smart to quarantine newbs for the first week or so at your place and give them a preventative spritz of a miticide. 



> I plan to buy some 4 inch mesh pots next cycle with hydroton and putting them in the table, seems a hell of alot easier


 Plain ol pots with drain holes, as intended for soil, will do the job and will probably be cheaper than netpots. Keeps the roots in the pots and prevents knitting with neighbouring plants' roots as well, making plants movable. 

I see wot you're up to; just cranking the system up. The fun's just beginning. 



gvega187 said:


> omg every time u slide an OP pic in there it makes me want to tear down my entire house and start over lol...tear...


Anyone can make an op like mine. As long as you have an 8'W x 9'L x 7'H space which can be ventilated and has safe AC power, you're happening. It's just a rather large grow tent, would fit in a carpark space.



> I read that you disapprove of digital ballasts. Is there any instance in which they are better? (240 maybe?)


The only instance I can think of where electronic ballasts might be a plus is in a bigmotherfucking commercial grow op where a large number of ballasts are used. The 9% power savings might make a difference in the max number of lamps that could run on the available AC service to the whole house/warehouse grow op. However, greedhead commercial growers buy the cheapest ballasts they can find, not the most efficient. 

Ballasts are current limiters. Inductive aka 'magnetic' ballasts regulate current with coil of copper wire on a laminated iron core. Electronic ballasts have digital control circuits and large transistor-like devices (triacs or SCRs) which do the actual current throttling. At the end of the day, a coil of copper wire is more electrically durable than a semiconductor junction and a bunch of soldered connections. It's not unusual to see 20 year old standard magnetic ballasts. I doubt you'll find a warranty longer than 5 years on an electronic ballast. My 1000W CWA ballasts are about 10 years old. They were good quality off the bat so their iron cored inductors are silent, even now.



> You have also told me before that you use ONE 1000w HPS for TWO of those roughly 3x3 areas.


Yep.



> 1-So you put the light about where the two trays meet?


Yep.



> 2- is it possible more light would benefit even YOUR MIGHT op?


It wouldn't hurt, but I think the performance gain would be hard to justify against the additional power cost. 

If I considered anything, I might put a 600 over each tray. The pair of 'tubed 1000s suck about 2200-2250W out of the AC mains (with ballast loss considered) and each put down something like 80K lux avg over the pair of 900 x 900mm trays, with the lamps at about 300mm above the nearest plants. 4x 'tubed 600s would draw about 2800W with ballast losses and would lay down about 90K lux at a similar spacing. I don't think the yield difference would be significant but the power cost would be. 



> 3- Not all batwing reflectors have that butt like profile you mentioned being crucial earlier. Is there a particular company you prefer?


My batwings are Adjust-A-Wings which have had their slipper-mount lamp socket removed and replaced with cooltubes. 



> Normally they simply curve downwards instead of up and then down if u follow...I am baffled at the amount of turdball reflectors out there. All good growers only recommend cool tubes with wings.


Yep, you're describing a single parabola, where there's only one curve, not two. You're quite right, these sort point quite a lot of light right back to the lamp tube. 



> p.s. i started saving all the awesome info I come across in this forum in a word document I like to call Al b. Not'd thanks for my weekly NOTES!!


Probably a good thing. Years worth of my writing went down the shitter when the Canadians went crazy and allowed the US DEA to shut down Overgrow.com, where I was a Mentor for about 5 years.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 28, 2008)

rifishman said:


> Hey Al,
> I've been following your threads for over a year and have had good results.


Great to hear it.  




> I am not pleased with the root mass within the pots.


You're quite right to be concerned. 



> My ebb and flow is being cycled 3 x a day at 15 min. intervals. I plan to get the digital timer to get the flood time down a bit.


Yep, start by reducing your flood duration to only the time needed to raise the level to the overflow and only 1x/day @ lights on for plants in wks 1-2 and 2x/lights-on for more advanced plants, second watering at lights-on+6h. 



> I am using rockwool mini cubes in the pots and in earlier grows i have had a good solid root mass coming out of the pots at harvest.


If you got good roots with this medium and flood timing in earlier crops, something was different. The plants may have been more vigorous, using more water more quickly, room temps might have been warmer, increasing evaporation from the pots of media, etc. 


> On a few plants I chopped tonight, I noticed a slight brown in some of the roots at the bottom of the pot.
> 
> I want to ask if you think this is root rot and the possible reason why. Could it be the 15 minute (too long) of my flood cycles.


Yep, classic root rot. Are you using H2O2? If not, you should be applying 50% grade H2O2 at 1ml/L of tank volume, reapplied every 3-4 days. 



> The plants are giving me some fairly decent yields in the past few months. I have some that are around 1 oz (dry) and some less, but I feel part of that was my setup of my cycles and a few other issues that I have figured out and fixed.
> 
> What concerns me is that I was expected a fuller root mass and much whiter roots.


Would concern me too. You should see quite a lot of bright white root development especially down low in the pot if all's OK. 

Sorting out the flood frequency and duration along with religiously dosing the tanks with H2O2 should make yields better and more consistent for you. 



> Peace out and keep up the great work here.


Thanks. Peace on you, too.


----------



## rifishman (Aug 28, 2008)

Al,

Thanks for all of that. Makes sense, for sure. Had a fellow gardener here with me tonight as we were batting our heads against the wall with what was happening. You explained it very clearly.

I was lacking the h202 component, and I know that had tons to do with the problem, plus the overwatering. WTF was I thinking. I read your earlier post on the 2lbs every two weeks, and know, for a fact, that the H202 issue was well explained.


Al, question:
I only can obtain H202 at 35% at the hydro store. How many ml/l should I use at that strength?



I slacked and am paying for it. The system works. For those of you that are faced with situations that just don"t seem right, you need to stop, analyze it and ask yourself (and Al of course  ) the reason for the situation.

Everything can be analyzed, corrected, and you are then officially escalted (whether you want to or not) from Hydro 101 to Hydro 102.

It is a wonderful learning experience and I am proud to be amongst those that enjoy the ride as I do.

Peace all, and thanks tons Al.


----------



## rifishman (Aug 28, 2008)

and of course Al, there is the harvest that is worth mentioning, never mind the hash from the Hash Press. 



















Peace all !


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 29, 2008)

rifishman said:


> Al,
> 
> Thanks for all of that. Makes sense, for sure. Had a fellow gardener here with me tonight as we were batting our heads against the wall with what was happening. You explained it very clearly.


Yep, just break it down to first principles. Cannabis hates wet feet. It likes damp but never saturated, airless rootzone conditions. You can saturate a medium if at least half the water stored in it is going to be removed in 24h, either by a vigorous plant, evaporation or some of each. 

Rockwool is highly absorbent, storing many times its weight in water. When it is saturated, there's almost no air in it, even with the RW mini-cubes. If you want to flood more frequently, use a low absorbency medium like pellets. High air to stored water ratio and lots of air gaps between the pellets. The RW mini cubes will behave pretty much like RW floc despite their cubed form. 

However, pellets have a dark side. I don't use them because they are heavy, hard to dispose of and while re-usable in theory, not so re-usable in practise. Before re-use, they must be cleaned FULLY of old root matter and sterilised or root disease can be transferred from crop to crop. Cleaning them is a sloppy prick of a job. They might be re-used 2-3 times if you're game to clean them, but then they begin to accumulate nute salts and must be discarded.

I used pots of RW floc for years, worked OK but I could only water 1x/day, limiting the amount of O2 I could get to the roots. I have recently switched to Fytocell, a resin foam based medium resembling crumbled foam rubber. It is about 37% air and about 60% water. The high air content permits frequent flooding while still storing a bit of water, nice in case of a pump failure. It holds much more water than pellets which hold approximately none, so it can't be flooded nearly as often. I am flooding 175mm x 175mm pots of Fytocell 2x/day for plants in wk 1-2 and 3x/day for larger, more advanced plants. Fytocell crumbs will escape the pot drain holes, so I tightly pack a 25-50mm layer of RW floc in the bottom of each pot and fill the remainder with Fytocell. Fytocell also will float, so the wetted bottom layer of RW floc, which holds much more water, reduces the buoyancy of the pots. 



> I was lacking the h202 component, and I know that had tons to do with the problem, plus the overwatering. WTF was I thinking. I read your earlier post on the 2lbs every two weeks, and know, for a fact, that the H202 issue was well explained.


Details, details, details. 



> Al, question:
> I only can obtain H202 at 35% at the hydro store. How many ml/l should I use at that strength?


Use 35% H2O2 at 1.7ml/L. 2ml/l is close enough for rock'n'roll. 

Lemme know how you go next batch. Should have no more brown rootage and more vigorous plants if you rework the watering timing and religously dose those tanks with H2O2 every 3-4 days.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 29, 2008)

rifishman said:


> and of course Al, there is the harvest that is worth mentioning, never mind the hash from the Hash Press.


All very noice work.  

I LIKE the kif press, that's on my wish list.


----------



## wyteberrywidow (Aug 29, 2008)

al b did u ever hear of flowering 10 weeks but really 8 so the last 2 weeks the plants remain in total darkness no light. so the plants can have alot if crystals(thc)


----------



## davidgrimm (Aug 29, 2008)

Hi there

Question 1:

Will the nutrients build up in a RW/Fyto grow medium for hydro (like they do in soil and then have to be "flushed" out)? And, if so, how do you get them out?


Question 2:

Some time ago you stopped (temporarily ??) using Canna 13/14. What effect, if any, did it have on your grow operation (yield, ease of operation, etc) ?



Sorry if you have already answered these questions. I have read most of your threads here backwards and forwards but, if I missed the answers, I apologize in advance.

Thank you for your dedication and assistance to all here.

DG


----------



## HAZEOHOLIC (Aug 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> (Yep, sounds great.)
> 
> *Thanks AL your the man will do 250watt for mums*
> 
> ...


)

*Got it Al and sorry about all the inquires is that I just want to get it right the first time thanks for all the help you giving me*


----------



## archie6214 (Aug 29, 2008)

Hey Al first off let me say I'm a huge fan of what you do here and am glad you are back from vacation. I'm trying to model my grow after yours and am starting with the mums now which I started from seed. I know I stunted their growth by leaving them in their rockwool cubes too long before transplanting. But they are 7 weeks old today and I can't figure out why these bottom leaves keep yellowing and die off. The ppm is 850, 5.5-6.0 ph, temps 75-80F, RH 45-50%. All I use is GH nova nutes, and 35% H202 @ 1.7ml/L. The burnt tops of some of the plants I'm going to guess and say heat burn and need to move light up. But the yellowing leaves I'm clueless. Also should I top these if they are going to be my mums?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 29, 2008)

wyteberrywidow said:


> al b did u ever hear of flowering 10 weeks but really 8 so the last 2 weeks the plants remain in total darkness no light. so the plants can have alot if crystals(thc)


 Leaving plants in darkness for some period (the usual claim is a few days, not weeks) to improve potency is a full-on wives' tale. Total and utter myth. 

It's not quite the _*silliest*_ thing I've ever heard... but it's not far off. You can safely laugh your head off at anyone who insists this works; the myth believers are just as much in the dark as their plants. 

If it did work, I'd leave 'em in the dark for a year, hoping to come back to a puddle of pure THC. 



davidgrimm said:


> Will the nutrients build up in a RW/Fyto grow medium for hydro (like they do in soil and then have to be "flushed" out)? And, if so, how do you get them out?


 No need to flush unless you have overfertilised (which I'm quite sure YOU will never do, right? ). If you _*must*_ flush, use a weak (~400ppm @ 5.8 ) nutrient solution and flush until the runoff is the same ppm & pH as the flush solution. 




> Some time ago you stopped (temporarily ??) using Canna 13/14. What effect, if any, did it have on your grow operation (yield, ease of operation, etc) ?


 The yield has dropped off by about 20% and I'm seeing some P deficiency in late flowering. I've just re-started applying PK in wk 6 for 1 wk only. Haven't gotten any plants out since re-starting use of the stuff. 



HAZEOHOLIC said:


> )
> 
> *Got it Al and sorry about all the inquires is that I just want to get it right the first time thanks for all the help you giving me*


 Thanks, there's no better time to get it right than at the beginning!

Please don't put your own comments within quote tags- when I try to 'reply with quotation' of your comments, the board trims off everything inside quote tags. 

What you see above is all I got when I tried to quote your last post to add my notes. Your comments are also mixed in with mine. 

Your comments in your reply should not be within quote tags, ie. 


```
[quote]comment you're replying to, within quote tags[/quote] your comment, not wrapped in QUOTE tags
```
 Now I have to go copy/paste all your comments manually out of your last post...  makes a lot of work for me... so here we go...



> Will use the 105w also in conjunction with 250 MH


Adding CFL to HID lighting is like putting a model airplane engine on the nose of your 747 to help out the jet engines. Don't bother. 



> *OK Al here the tricky part my closet for mums/clones is 88"Hx 24"Wx 24"D that is converted in feet's 7.33Hx2.00Wx2.00D that will = 29.32 cu ft / 3 = 9.77 CFM ? is that right I don't think so need help in that dept lol also flowering closet 88"Hx 60"Wx 24"D convert 7.33Hx5.00Wx2.00D= 73.30 sq ft/ 3= 24.43???? *


 Yes, you have some very small spaces. Your figures are right. You will have a hard time finding blowers of the calculated ratings. Just use some 6" axials, rated about 150-200CFM.



> *OK centrifugal blowers it is thanks Al*


 You'll only need a centrif for pushing air into a carbon filter or a very long (more than 4m) duct.



> *OK so I should get a axials intake blower?*


 Isn't that what I said? 


> *Wow nice so multiply the cfm of exhaust blower by 80-90% and that the cfm intake I should get? *


 Isn't that what I said?



> *This is the part that sucks my flower closet has a available grow space of 4.57' x 2.0'=9.14 feet x 50= 457 so I guess a 400watter but I want nice big buds can i still run a 600 air cooled tube?*


 You could run a 'tubed 600 but a 400 is a fine light and will make good density for you in the small space you're using. 



archie6214 said:


> they are 7 weeks old today and I can't figure out why these bottom leaves keep yellowing and die off. The ppm is 850, 5.5-6.0 ph, temps 75-80F, RH 45-50%. All I use is GH nova nutes, and 35% H202 @ 1.7ml/L. The burnt tops of some of the plants I'm going to guess and say heat burn and need to move light up. But the yellowing leaves I'm clueless.


You're going to have to maintain the pH a lot closer to 5.8 than a span of 5.5-6. You need to resolve to 0.1 (i.e. 5.8 +/- 0.1, or a maximum swing of 5.7-5.9). If you are trying to measure pH with a colour-match kit of some sort (strips, liquids), chuck that in the bin and get a proper pH meter. Colour-match kits are simply not accurate. Probably OK for your swimming pool but just won't git it for your hydro op. 

Part of what I see is a Mg deficiency (yellow, spotty leaves). This is probably not an actual lack of Mg, rather a nutrient lockout caused by running pH too low. See this nutrient availability chart stolen from St0ney on gardensecure.com:







I also see overwatering. I see you are using RW cubes in pellets. Is your rockwool cube below the flood level, permitting the cube to be saturated? I bet it is. The RW cube must be 1/2" _*above *_the flood level. Cubes must not be introduced to pellets until there is a decent spray of several taproots out of the bottom of your cube before putting it in the pellets. Flood your pellets about 5x/lights-on period, but _*do not *_allow your RW cube to be saturated. The roots out of the bottom of the cube will find the damp pellets after about a week post planting in the pellets. 



> Also should I top these if they are going to be my mums?


Yep, take off the growing tips to force branching.


----------



## archie6214 (Aug 29, 2008)

Yeah I went to my hydro store which is 1 1/2 hours away to get my ph meter a couple weeks ago and get home to find the fool gave me a ppm meter which I already have, so it's been back to the test strips until I get back up there this weekend. So you think the 850 ppm is ok for 7 weeks old or do you think I could raise it up to 1100 or so. Does 850 sound low? Also just curious what you saw in pics to mention overwatering? I thought signs of overwatering were droopy leaves? Thanks for your help btw.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 29, 2008)

archie6214 said:


> Yeah I went to my hydro store which is 1 1/2 hours away to get my ph meter a couple weeks ago and get home to find the fool gave me a ppm meter which I already have,


Tip: Don't blow cones before going to the hydro shop. 



> so it's been back to the test strips until I get back up there this weekend.


mmm, don't I guess good! 



> So you think the 850 ppm is ok for 7 weeks old or do you think I could raise it up to 1100 or so. Does 850 sound low?


850 is pretty low. 1100 would be closer to the mark, but I run my vegging plants at 1800.



> Also just curious what you saw in pics to mention overwatering? I thought signs of overwatering were droopy leaves?


In addition to droopy leaves (which usually occur with overwatering but in varying degrees), other telltales are slow, stunted growth, dull colour and small fan leaves. Anything which indicates that the roots are not able to supply the foliage with enough water & nutes are indications of root problems, which are most commonly caused by overwatering. 

How often are you flooding, for how long? Was I right? Is your RW cube below the flood level?

Your leaf tip burn is being caused by an excess of N in proportion to the availability of other nutes to the plant, which are getting locked out due to the pH running too low.


----------



## archie6214 (Aug 29, 2008)

Yep you were right!!! You are good, I have to give you credit for that!! I have only been watering 3x day for 8 minutes just enough to overflow. I took one of the extensions out of the overflow tube to bring flood level down. The water level only raises 1 3/8" or 34mm up the side of my pots is this enough? I'm going to go get my PH meter tomorrow!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 29, 2008)

archie6214 said:


> Yep you were right!!! You are good, I have to give you credit for that!!


bada-bing  Shoot me full o' steroids and call me Barry Bonds, I'm swingin' good today. 



> I have only been watering 3x day for 8 minutes just enough to overflow.


If you were wetting only the pellets, 3x/lights-on would be OK, if too few. Pellets don't hold much water. However, you have kept the RW saturated as well. That's where it's gone pear shaped.

8 mins is too long, only need to flood pellets long enough to raise to the overflow, then shut off the pump and let it drain. Probably only 2-3 mins tops. Turn on the pump & measure the time it takes to get the level to the overflow, set your timer accordingly.

Shorter duration floods, more often, are better than fewer, longer duration floods. Just the water draining out will draw quite a lot of fresh air into the pellets. 


> I took one of the extensions out of the overflow tube to bring flood level down. The water level only raises 1 3/8" or 34mm up the side of my pots is this enough?


Depends on how deep the pellets are. You need to flood your pellets but not your RW cubes. You can lower the flood level or deepen the pellets. 

Pellets will wick a little bit of water; if you flood a 6" deep pot of pellets to 4", they will be damp at 4.5" but not wet. That's why you put the cube, *when it has roots out of the bottom* (not before), about 1/2" above the flood level. Any additional pellet depth can be used to stabilise the cube and hold the plant upright until its roots can do that job. 



> I'm going to go get my PH meter tomorrow!!


I want a time machine for poor folks like you so I could get you to the shop a few weeks ago.


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## archie6214 (Aug 29, 2008)

Hey Al I got another one for ya. How do I determine between nute burn and a deficiancy? I first thought the yellowing dying leaves at the bottom were from nute burn. So I backed off the PPM for a week no change so then I figured it was a deficiancy so I just up'd the PPM to 1100 just now. I guess it's all part of the learning curve that comes with experience.


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 29, 2008)

hey al...i just finished reading another thread you were posting in about aerocloners....learned more from you, yet again. i have built my own and run it 24/7 but after reading your posts i think i might be keeping the stems too wet and thus slowing rooting...and mine are doing the whole "roots futher up the stem" thing so i have some work to do..my fist run i got 18 out of 30 to root in 9 days. but i'm on day 17 and i've only got 13 throwin roots, and not even impressive ones. so....to wet? now what....can i put a timer on the pump and set it for ??? times a day.
i know i should go back to rw i'm just not done trying this yet and your input in all these matters is greatly appreciated


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 30, 2008)

archie6214 said:


> Hey Al I got another one for ya. How do I determine between nute burn and a deficiancy?


It's not always so simple. You need to accurately know both pH & EC before you can make a call. If pH is off (gotta be 5.8 ), some nutes are unavailable to the plant and others are available in comparative abundance. Ratio of nutes, one to the others, is very important. Low pH can lock out P & Mg but not bother N, mimicking both a P & Mg deficiency and N toxicity. Result will be cooked leaf tips, slow growth, spotty/yellowing leaves and sometimes red leaf petioles/stems. 

One thing you can be certain of is that you're very unlikely to get a nutrient deficiency when using standard (as opposed to organic) nutes from a reputable maker. Everything will be in there. If you have appropriate measured nute strength yet see what looks like a deficiency, chances are the pH is off, locking out some nutrients. 

In addition, overwatering, problem #1 in most new grower's ops, has particular telltale symptoms which novice growers often mistake for deficiencies i.e. yellowing leaves, droopy foliage, slow growth.



bugsrnme said:


> i think i might be keeping the stems too wet and thus slowing rooting...and mine are doing the whole "roots futher up the stem" thing


Yep, aerocloners absolutely can do that. They can be very tricky to run. I found them to be inconsistent and finicky compared to 40mm wrapped RW cubes in a clonebox on heat mat. 

If you have water dripping off the stems, it's too wet. It really only takes sustained high humidity to produce root nodes, not constant wetting from condensation. 

Try adding an aquarium air line valve inline to the air stone and reduce the air flow. Alternatively, use a taller plastic box that gets the stems further from the mist. 

H2O2 is very important in aerocloners. They work best with a submersible aquarium heater set for 27-28C. Unfortunately, nice warm water is a great place to grow pathogens.

Rotsaruck.


----------



## hybrid (Aug 30, 2008)

Hey Al,

Ever seen a plant chopped for clones go all yellow green on ya? I had the opportunitiy to see one and it looks slickly unlike its roommates.

Is this somehting that happens or an oddity with cause and effect that needs to be addressed.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 30, 2008)

hybrid said:


> Hey Al,
> 
> Ever seen a plant chopped for clones go all yellow green on ya? I had the opportunitiy to see one and it looks slickly unlike its roommates.
> 
> Is this somehting that happens or an oddity with cause and effect that needs to be addressed.


Clones which are taking a long time to set root very frequently show this problem, so do clones which have had some stem tip rot due to overwet media or a non-sterile cut.

Clones are running on nutes stored in the leaves while they were still attached to the mum. The nutes run out in about 14-16 days or so. Appears as yellowing leaves and progresses to necrosis, eventually dropping the leaf, seems to start on the lower fan leaves first. 

Overwatered clones can go a sickly sallow green all over, with distortion of leaves i.e. shrivelling, twisting. 

The difference between one clone and its mates can be several; the part of the mum that one clone was taken from may have stored more nutes; the media on the sickie may have been too wet.

Successful cloning processes give you a plant that looks like it was just cut off the mum yesterday.


----------



## grandpabear3 (Aug 30, 2008)

thanks for the reply al but .....

but i'm on day 17 and i've only got 13 throwin roots, and not even impressive ones. so....to wet? now what....can i put a timer on the pump and set it for ??? times a day.


i still had this in the post that i need help with. i can go out and turn it on every so often or put it on a timer but everyone says 24/7 ...but that's keeping then too wet and causing probs....stupid clones


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 30, 2008)

If you have water dripping off the stems, yes, it's too wet. Like I said, you can either valve the airline and reduce the flow, use a bigger bin or, like you said, try using a timer to reduce the amount of wetting. You might try running it every other 15 mins for starters. If you have rotted stem tips, recut them up to the living material. 24/7 isn't working, dial it back and see how you go.


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 30, 2008)

thank you al.....

now i just went out at 7:00 a.m. to check on the op...my 1000w comes on at 6:00a.m. and my hps light bulb was just barely flickering a light faint blue color ......?????has it blown or what!!???
now i have a little bullshit cfl hanging in the flower room....is this gonna be enough to convince my flowering babies its daylight....what effect is this going to have on .....well, everything?

what kind of time frame do i have before i cause damage i'll regret....or is it too late already???
i'm freakin' out man !!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 30, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> thank you al.....
> 
> now i just went out at 7:00 a.m. to check on the op...my 1000w comes on at 6:00a.m. and my hps light bulb was just barely flickering a light faint blue color ......?????has it blown or what!!???


Most likely it has. It may have been cycling on and off for a week or two- that's characteristic of HPS tubes at end of life.It's also characteristic of a hot-start, where power was interrupted and re-applied before the lamp tube fully cools down. HPS lamps do not like to be hot-started. Unplug it, wait 15 mins and try to strike it. It may just start. If your lamp has been hot-started several timies, its life will be shortened. 



> now i have a little bullshit cfl hanging in the flower room....is this gonna be enough to convince my flowering babies its daylight....what effect is this going to have on .....well, everything?


None, if you nip out & get a new lamp tube today or tomorrow.



> what kind of time frame do i have before i cause damage i'll regret....or is it too late already???
> i'm freakin' out man !!!


Don't freak out, relax.  

In flowering a total failure of a lamp is not a big deal. Long dark cycles hurt flowering plants less than a timer failure which leaves the lamp on too long. They can live in the dark for a couple days with no ill effect, but much longer and you'll lose some production. Running the CFL won't hurt anything but it probably won't do much bud production either.

A lamp failure in vegging plants IS a big problem. Mums, for example, could be triggered into flowering after a couple days' darkness. 

My greater concern is if the lamp were cycling for a while before it failed. That may trigger some hermaphrodism. 

Just get a new lamp in as soon as you can, she'll be right. 

Pays to have a spare. You get spares by replacing lamps on a schedule, before they croak. I relamp every 12 mos though most HPS tubes will run 2 years. They lose a lot of output after 12 mos,so makers usually recommend yearly relamping for horticultural use of HPS. I have several old HPS tubes which have a few mos left in them for use in a pinch.


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## BigBudBalls (Aug 30, 2008)

Hey Al, is there a hydro that isn't too fussy about res temp? I would think ebb-flow/flood-drain might not be fussy. 

And am I off base on thinking that the res temp being too warm and getting root rot is more for systems that have the roots in water all the time?

thanks


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 30, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> Hey Al, is there a hydro that isn't too fussy about res temp? I would think ebb-flow/flood-drain might not be fussy.
> 
> And am I off base on thinking that the res temp being too warm and getting root rot is more for systems that have the roots in water all the time?


You're spot-on. 

Keeping tanks below 26C is necessary as above that, dissolved O2 is easily lost from the solution, but you're right, without roots in the res, it's less important. 

I've never even checked the temps of my flood system tanks, not once.


----------



## grandpabear3 (Aug 30, 2008)

thanks al...i'm on my way to get a new bulb.
my power was interupted today and it has happened 15-20 times in the month it has been running.....yep brand new from hydro supply.com
i planned on gettin a replacement but thought i'd have more than a month.

thank you for your help i feel much better.kiss-ass


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## gvega187 (Aug 30, 2008)

Al, I noticed that you use a sulfur burner in one of your pics. I just employed one in my flowering room and my entire house is slowly starting to smell like sulfur.

The label warns against any inhalation etc. Should I get out of my house? Is it to late? AM i already dead? LOL


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## hybrid (Aug 30, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Clones which are taking a long time to set root very frequently show this problem, so do clones which have had some stem tip rot due to overwet media or a non-sterile cut.
> 
> Clones are running on nutes stored in the leaves while they were still attached to the mum. The nutes run out in about 14-16 days or so. Appears as yellowing leaves and progresses to necrosis, eventually dropping the leaf, seems to start on the lower fan leaves first.
> 
> ...


you mis-understood me, I asked about the plant (mum/mom) that unlike its siblings, turned yellow green after it had been chopped. I didnt know what to say to the poor dude, looks like the mom is going to extinct herself instead of recovering and providing more clones.

dude said he poured urine in the planter (soil) for nitrogen. I suppose its feasible but kind of akward?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 30, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> thanks al...i'm on my way to get a new bulb.
> my power was interupted today and it has happened 15-20 times in the month it has been running.....yep brand new from hydro supply.com
> i planned on gettin a replacement but thought i'd have more than a month.
> 
> thank you for your help i feel much better.


 no worries. I would have expected more than a month out of the thing too, but 15-20 hot-starts on the tube would be enough to make it very unhappy.

Can't find one just this instant, but I think I have seen devices intended for use with aircon units which prevent power from being re-applied immediately after a power fail, rather holds power off for about 5 mins minimum when it comes back on. I'll keep an eye out for them, just for you.



gvega187 said:


> Al, I noticed that you use a sulfur burner in one of your pics. I just employed one in my flowering room and my entire house is slowly starting to smell like sulfur.
> 
> The label warns against any inhalation etc. Should I get out of my house? Is it to late? AM i already dead? LOL


 Here's a snip from Cornell Univ:


> *TOXICOLOGICAL EFFECTS*
> 
> *ACUTE TOXICITY*
> 
> Sulfur is known to be of low toxicity, and poses very little if any risk to human and animal health (1, 8). Short-term studies show that sulfur is of very low acute oral toxicity and does not irritate the skin (it has been placed in EPA Toxicity Category IV, the least toxic category, for these effects). Sulfur also is not a skin sensitizer. However, it can cause some eye irritation, dermal toxicity and inhalation hazards (8).


 In other words, excessive exposure to S vapour may irritate your eyes and give you a runny nose. It's not terribly hazardous stuff. Don't worry about it. 

I am running my S 'burner' on a timer for 8 mins, 2x/day during lights-off (1 hr after lights-off & 1h before lights-on). That's plenty to keep powdery mildew totally suppressed. Might be able to go lower. If you are running yours for longer than that, back down to 8min/2x/day, see if that doesn't reduce the scent. Keep dialing it down until you see powdery mildew come back and bump it back up a little.



hybrid said:


> you mis-understood me, I asked about the plant (mum/mom) that unlike its siblings, turned yellow green after it had been chopped.


Oh, I see. Yes, I have seen that happen to older mother plants. It's been coincidental with doing a pass of cuttings, but plants which have gotten rather rootbound or perhaps have picked up some gnats in the rootball sometimes croak after doing a pass of cuts. 



> dude said he poured urine in the planter (soil) for nitrogen. I suppose its feasible but kind of akward?


And smelly! I suppose piss is 14% N, but I can think of much better ways to get N to my plants.. .you know, fertilisers, hydro nutes, all that...


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## BigBudBalls (Aug 30, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You're spot-on.
> 
> Keeping tanks below 26C is necessary as above that, dissolved O2 is easily lost from the solution, but you're right, without roots in the res, it's less important.
> 
> I've never even checked the temps of my flood system tanks, not once.


Thanks man. I do appreciate the effort/advice!


Ok here's a newbie Q. Does the dissolved O2 concentration matter with a flood drain? The roots are not in water most of the time.

OK, I can understand the rockwool (one hellava sponge!) vs hydroton vs perlite vs etc. will factor in.

Wouldn't roots use nutes and O2 when available?

(tossing an air pump in isn't a prob in the least. Adjusting temps is a good draw on utilities. Looking for info mostly)


----------



## grandpabear3 (Aug 30, 2008)

no worries. I would have expected more than a month out of the thing too, but 15-20 hot-starts on the tube would be enough to make it very unhappy.

Can't find one just this instant, but I think I have seen devices intended for use with aircon units which prevent power from being re-applied immediately after a power fail, rather holds power off for about 5 mins minimum when it comes back on. I'll keep an eye out for them, just for you.

 that sounds really cool....if you figure sumthin out lemme know...i'll go buy it.

got a brand new never before in the history of rollitup asked of albfuct question.....ready?
wait for it.......
ok this hps bulb i'm after....is a bulb a bulb? any at yeolde hydro shop will do , or is there a type i need to buy, i.e. brand name and so forth.....i just found out there aint just one ya know!!
thanks for your time


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## Kaosisglobal (Aug 30, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> no worries. I would have expected more than a month out of the thing too, but 15-20 hot-starts on the tube would be enough to make it very unhappy.
> 
> Can't find one just this instant, but I think I have seen devices intended for use with aircon units which prevent power from being re-applied immediately after a power fail, rather holds power off for about 5 mins minimum when it comes back on. I'll keep an eye out for them, just for you.
> 
> ...


I am tuned in for the answer to this.

Bulbs.com sells very cheapo bulbs, but I don't believe they are "Horticulture Grade" 

Al waiting to hear what you say. If there is really any difference between a 400w High Pressure Sodium Bulb ($10 bucks), and a 400W Hortilux ($60).


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 30, 2008)

This is a repost of a batch of queries posted as a comment to an image in my gallery. While I don't mind comments on images, those are not widely read. The readership figures on this thread are stunning, 11,600+ reads in the last 30 days as of this writing, averaging 386 reads per day and rising fast, it was averaging 350 reads/day only a few days ago.

If you have queries, it's easier for me to keep track of them here in the FAQt thread and more people see the queries & responses, hopefully answering other folks' questions before they even need to ask them. 



> Big ass clones
> 08-30-2008 04:53 AM
> 
> Whats your ppm on your tap?do you let it sit to evap.the chlorine?i m using ro water on this grow and not seeing any diff.ANY THING you have to do to get the big clones going? im doing your get a harvest every 2 weeks and want to get some big ass clones to start with what temp is best im trying to keep mine in upper 80s and they seem to grow faster than lower temps was cloning at 70 to 75?By the way thank you im loving getting 4 plants and 8ozs everymonth. _
> ...


 My tapwater is pretty soft, about 140-300ppm out of the tap. Most of that is caused by Ca & Mg, which the plants can use as nutrients, so it doesn't bother me. I know this as a result of consulting the water analysis data from my local water utility. Your water util may publish the same, check their website. They almost surely will provide this data for free even if they don't have it on their website, just give them a call.

If the water out of your tap has a bit of electrical conductivity (EC), find out from the water quality data whether that EC is caused by generally helpful/harmless (in usual municipal water concentration) minerals like Ca & Mg or by something which SHOULD worry you- salinity (NaCl). If your tapwater has high salinity, RO is a good idea, but otherwise it's not really necessary.

Since I want a nute strength of 1400ppm for my flowering plants, I measure my tapwater EC and subtract that number from the TDS (total dissolved salts/solid) reading for a mixed batch. In example, if my tapwater today is 200ppm and I want 1400ppm of nute strength, I mix for 1600. 

pH is always 5.8. Usually, the pH buffers included in my nutes will correct my tapwater pH to 5.8 or 5.9 without me adding any pHDown. Sometimes after very heavy rains, pathogens are washed out of the catchments and into the reservoirs, so the water util treats a bit more strongly, which can bump up the pH. In that case, I may have to put 15-20ml of pHDown in each 125L tank after mixing in the nutes.

Chlorination in the levels as commonly applied by modern water treatment plants is not only harmless to plants (and people), but it is in fact the grower's frined. Chlorination will keep water free of pathogens int he pipes while it is on the way to you as well as for a couple of days in an open tank, until the stuff evaporates from solution. After then, you have to use a pathogen suppressor like H2O2 to prevent your yummy nutrient soup from being a happy home to any passing algae, mould or fungus spores.

SoG does not allow any veg time for clones post setting root, so big clones help make big plants faster. 



Thicker stemmed cuttings outperform thinner ones. The stack on the left all have stems of about 4mm or less. The stack on the right all are over 5.5mm. If there's any tricks here, that's a good one. 



My clonebox air temp is held to 30C by a small muffin fan exhausting the box (located upper left of the back wall) and controlled by a thermostat (not seen in this pic, located also on the back wall, at plant level). A heat mat is especially helpful for speeding along clone rooting. Mine is a fixed 30C mat, moulded in silicone rubber. It's been running continuously for about 8 years. 

Glad your happy with your 8oz/mo output off 4 harvested plants. I think you can do better than 0.5z per, though. I get 1-1.25z per plant under 1000HPS lights. 



BigBudBalls said:


> Ok here's a newbie Q. Does the dissolved O2 concentration matter with a flood drain? The roots are not in water most of the time.


 It does matter. More O2 to the roots increases vigor. This is why I run air pumps and bubble curtains in each tank and dose the tanks with 50% grade H202 @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days. Since clay pellet media holds almost no water, it can be flooded frequently, starting with 5x/lights-on, bathing the roots in freshly oxygenated solution as much as possible. However, also since it holds next to no water, pellets don't offer much backup water storage in case of a pump failure. Highly absorbent media like rockwool does not permit frequent flooding. However, I used pots of RW floc for years because I'm a stoned slacker and I wanted to be able to skip looking in on the op for a day if I get a slack attack. It could only be watered 1x/day though, limiting the amt of oxygenated nutes I could flow through my roots. I have since changed to Fytocell, which has about a 37% air content and can be flooded more frequently. I now flood small plants in wks 1-2 of flowering 2x/lights-on and larger plants (wk3 on) 3x/lights-on in Fytocell. 



> Wouldn't roots use nutes and O2 when available?


 Yep! 



bugsrnme said:


> this hps bulb i'm after....is a bulb a bulb? any at yeolde hydro shop will do , or is there a type i need to buy, i.e. brand name and so forth.....i just found out there aint just one ya know!!


When you pay more for a lamp, you're getting a lamp that probably meets its luminous output spec when you buy it and chances are the lamp will make a higher average output over its service life. I use GE Lucagrow HPS tubes. I've tried some cheap no-name Chinese HPS tubes that certainly lit up but didn't meet the luminous output spec. Looked pretty bright but I wouldn't have known it was as dim as an 18 month old Lucagrow without measuring it with a lux meter.


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## unity (Aug 30, 2008)

Hi Al, could you look at my city's water report and let me know what I need to look for. 
Thanks mate1 

Unity


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## saine420 (Aug 30, 2008)

How often do your run your bulbs before you replace, or do you let them die out? I need to get a lux meter...


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## toast master (Aug 30, 2008)

Hey Al from the looks of it your a little bizzy.... but since you mentioned it , is there any reason why you cant subsitute chlorination for h202.. just wondering if one could get buy with it instead . Local hydro shop been waiting for a deliv. for 2 mo... just wonderin.... thanks bro.


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## sparkafire (Aug 30, 2008)

Hey ABF I know you dont do areo but have you ever seen this before on clones? I put it up in problems HERE. Thanks for the help. 

Sparky


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## Phinxter (Aug 30, 2008)

al b i noticed in the pics of your setup that the reflector wings on your cool tube are about 5 times the size of what came on my cool tube hood from htg ... did you buy those separate or build them DIY style or ?? where can i get those wings ?


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## archie6214 (Aug 30, 2008)

Hey Al just thought I'd let you know I drove my ass an hour and a half back to my hydro shop and got my ph meter today, got home and tested resivor and it was at 5.6. Corrected to 5.8 and we'll see how it goes. Hopefully see some changes in the next week or so. Thanks again for your help!!


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 30, 2008)

al its been about 2-3 days since i put my germed seeds in rockwool and they r takin off nice my only problem is now they r starting to strecth towards the light they r a good size and i was thinking to just put them 3 feet under my hps for rapid growth is this a good idea. oh and another thing is the root came thru the bottom of the rockwool so i put it in the rainforest36 the water it sprays leave the coco liner cups wet and rockwool soaked when it is on what time method u recommend to leave it onor do u think i should just use net cups filled with hydroton and the rockwool in it instead of the coco cups??


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 31, 2008)

ok...i'm calm....i'm calm.
i cant get a bulb until thursday al......i've plugged in a cfl crap-o-light in the timer in the flower chamber but it aint gonna do shit other than let the plants know its daytime,,,and shady at that. am i fuct?



ok so maybe i pull through this....can i change the time on my 12/12...meaning can i flip it without freaking out the plant?


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 31, 2008)

another quickie....if i'm using 1.7 ml/l 35% grade h202 and my ph is stable and my res is crystal clear.....can i slack on the 2 week cleaning?


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## rifishman (Aug 31, 2008)

Hey Al, 
Back to my issue with the root rot. Will the clones I cut from mums that may have root rot carry the pathogens forward when I grow the clones out?

Is there a way to save mums that I may have overwatered? 

If I cut back on watering cycle and startt adding in the H202, will that clear up the root rot or are these plants doomed?

RIFISHMAN


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 31, 2008)

unity said:


> Hi Al, could you look at my city's water report and let me know what I need to look for.


 The only real hazard in tapwater is excessive salinity (NaCl). 'Excessive' varies by whom you ask. 

The South Australian govt thinks up to 480mg/L is 'low sodium.'


> approx.
> 0 - 480​ 0 - 800​ Very Low for SA freshwater sites​ Range for rainwater and tap water. Good drinking water for people and suitable for animals and plants.​


​

Bottled water with 5mg/L sodium or less is considered 'sodium free.'

However, I think more than 150ppm (150mg/L) sodium is worth doing something about, even if that means diluting tapwater with distilled or RO water (air conditioner or dehumidifier condensate water is great- and _*cheap*_) to reduce the salinity to 150ppm or less. With levels around 150ppm, disposable media is a very good idea as reusable media will accumulate salinity.

Your salinity is about 50mg/L, which is fine for plants. 



saine420 said:


> How often do your run your bulbs before you replace, or do you let them die out?


 While HPS lamps will continue to make light for 2-3 years, luminous output degrades with aging enough that most HPS mfrs recommend relamping every 12 mos in horticultural applications. I always have a spare with a few mos left in it.



toast master said:


> Hey Al from the looks of it your a little bizzy....


 More than a little and not just on RIU!



> but since you mentioned it , is there any reason why you cant subsitute chlorination for h202.. just wondering if one could get buy with it instead .


 You can get a product made by Flairform called 'Pyth-Off' which is a chlorinator. However, if you use this, mind the dosages closely and shoot lower than higher. You can induce chlorine toxicity with the stuff. I sure did when I played with it a few years ago. 

It's not my preferred antimicrobial because while H2O2 gives off O2 when it breaks down, essential for vigorous root formation, PythOff's residual components are not as readily beneficial to the plant.


> Local hydro shop been waiting for a deliv. for 2 mo... just wonderin.... thanks bro.


 Call up a local chemical supply house and ask for their per kg pricing on 50% grade H202. See if you can buy quantities you can use in a reasonable amount of time, a year or so. If they won't sell in less than massive quantities or charge outrageously for small quantities (I get it for $5/L in 25L jugs), ask at least about the availability. You can then help your hydro shop out by telling them that Yourtown Chemical Co. has the stuff on the shelf. 



sparkafire said:


> Hey ABF I know you dont do areo but have you ever seen this before on clones? I put it up in problems HERE. Thanks for the help.


 ouchie. Your suspicion is probably correct. I think you didn't get all the bleach out. I know how hard that can be, the stuff tends to stick to plastics. 

Instead of sodium hypochlorite bleach for sterilising, use H2O2 50% grade at 25ml in 1L water. 



Phinxter said:


> al b i noticed in the pics of your setup that the reflector wings on your cool tube are about 5 times the size of what came on my cool tube hood from htg ... did you buy those separate or build them DIY style or ?? where can i get those wings ?


 My batwings are the Adjust-A-Wings 'large Avenger' reflector with the slipper tube socket mount removed and replaced with a 150mm x 400mm cooltube.



archie6214 said:


> tested resivor and it was at 5.6. Corrected to 5.8 and we'll see how it goes. Hopefully see some changes in the next week or so. Thanks again for your help!!


 coolio. 



wyteberrywidow said:


> al its been about 2-3 days since i put my germed seeds in rockwool and they r takin off nice my only problem is now they r starting to strecth towards the light they r a good size and i was thinking to just put them 3 feet under my hps for rapid growth is this a good idea. oh and another thing is the root came thru the bottom of the rockwool so i put it in the rainforest36 the water it sprays leave the coco liner cups wet and rockwool soaked when it is on what time method u recommend to leave it onor do u think i should just use net cups filled with hydroton and the rockwool in it instead of the coco cups??


what kind of light are they under now how many sets of leaves do they have what size hps are you using what is a rainforest 36 how often are you wetting the rockwool what is the nute strength and pH ive said many times that i don't like organic materials in a recirculating hydro system because they can break down with eposure to H2O2 and foul pumps or support mould i cant really give you any idea of how often to water until i get a better idea of how a rainforest 36 works i just dont know all the brand names said that before too you have to tell me what kind of a system it is and by the way do you see how hard it is to read stuff that isnt properly punctuated and broken into sentences seriously spelling grammer and sentences really help me be able to understand wtf youre talking about otherwise i spend a lot of time just trying to decipher what youve written see what i mean


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 31, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> what kind of light are they under now how many sets of leaves do they have what size hps are you using what is a rainforest 36 how often are you wetting the rockwool what is the nute strength and pH ive said many times that i don't like organic materials in a recirculating hydro system because they can break down with eposure to H2O2 and foul pumps or support mould i cant really give you any idea of how often to water until i get a better idea of how a rainforest 36 works i just dont know all the brand names said that before too you have to tell me what kind of a system it is and by the way do you see how hard it is to read stuff that isnt properly punctuated and broken into sentences seriously spelling grammer and sentences really help me be able to understand wtf youre talking about otherwise i spend a lot of time just trying to decipher what youve written see what i mean


 
too funny al...unfortunately, you still write well enough to follow perfectly....you cant even be stupid when your trying...lol


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 31, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> ok...i'm calm....i'm calm.
> i cant get a bulb until thursday al......i've plugged in a cfl crap-o-light in the timer in the flower chamber but it aint gonna do shit other than let the plants know its daytime,,,and shady at that. am i fuct?


No, but you may want to add a week into the flowering sked. 



> ok so maybe i pull through this....can i change the time on my 12/12...meaning can i flip it without freaking out the plant?


Flip it? 



bugsrnme said:


> another quickie....if i'm using 1.7 ml/l 35% grade h202 and my ph is stable and my res is crystal clear.....can i slack on the 2 week cleaning?


Yes, just don't allow a lot of nutrient precipitants to accumulate in the tank bottoms, at least rinse the tanks before mixing up fresh sauce. 



rifishman said:


> Hey Al,
> Back to my issue with the root rot. Will the clones I cut from mums that may have root rot carry the pathogens forward when I grow the clones out?


No, the pathogen activity will be confined to the roots. 



> Is there a way to save mums that I may have overwatered?


Yep, you could treat them like big clones. Remove all leaves & branches but the growing tip and a couple of fan leaves near it. Lop off the stem at the base (or wherever it is still green and healthy), lightly scrape the last 25mm of stem with the back of a scalpel, and plug the thing in some damp (not wet) absorbent media ie rockwool. Keep it under 24/0 light at 30C. With some luck, you'll have a new root system in 7-10 days.


> If I cut back on watering cycle and startt adding in the H202, will that clear up the root rot or are these plants doomed?


Dunno, have you got pics of these posted? Link, please?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 31, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> too funny al...unfortunately, you still write well enough to follow perfectly....you cant even be stupid when your trying...lol


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## Phinxter (Aug 31, 2008)

good lord those batwings are 169.00 US. dollars at my hydro shop.
know anywhere to get them a bit more reasonably for them ?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 31, 2008)

Phinxter said:


> good lord those batwings are 169.00 US. dollars at my hydro shop.
> know anywhere to get them a bit more reasonably for them ?


Believe it or not, $US169 is a bargain. The large AAW is not cheap, I've seen them priced much higher.


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## Phinxter (Aug 31, 2008)

Thanks Al B you always come thru ... i read about 90% of this post and not sure if i saw it here or not but 
i have read a few times on RIU about people turning lights out 48 hours in between veg and flower.
i know you go from clone to flower. but do you see any benefit in this practice of 48 hour lights out before flowering ??

once again Al B i really appreciate everything you do to make RIU a great place for fast reliable info


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 31, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> No, but you may want to add a week into the flowering sked.
> 
> Flip it?
> 
> ...


 sorry about the response in your quote...still figuring this whole forum thing out.


how do i multi quote your quote...like when you break up a paragraph and respond to each sentence.....do i just copy & paste like a madman?


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## yourname (Aug 31, 2008)

Hey Al B. i have been researching growing for the past year,I have read alot of your posts,And i am amazed with your knowledge of growing and your willingness to teach others,You truly are a great asset to Riu.I will be starting my first grow this week,I can't wait.....Again sorry to interrupt your thread but people with your knowledge and patients are rare be safe and well....


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## q_tip201 (Aug 31, 2008)

I was Just wondering what your guys thoughts would be on 4 600w in a single 8 in duct with 1x 786 cfm fan or would it be better for two lights to a run and two fans got my 4 3'x3' tables trying Al's way out


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## wyteberrywidow (Aug 31, 2008)

(what kind of light are they under now how many sets of leaves do they have what size hps are you using what is a rainforest 36 how often are you wetting the rockwool what is the nute strength and pH ive said many times that i don't like organic materials in a recirculating hydro system because they can break down with eposure to H2O2 and foul pumps or support mould)
THEY ARE UNDER 2X40 WATT FLORO COOL WHITES AND TWO 32 WATT CFL BRIGHT WHITE, 6 SEEDLINGS IN ROCKWOOL JUST POPPED OPEN WITH THERE FIRST SET OF LEAVES AND THE ROOTS ARE COMING OUT THE BOTTOM, I HAVE A 400 HPS THAT I WANTED TO KEEP ABOUT THREE FEET ABOVE THEM,THE RAINFORST 36 IS A AEROPONIC SYSTEM THAT HAS A WATER PUMP INSIDE THE RES WITH A PIPE GOING TO THE LID SPRAYING AND DIFFUSING THE WATER TO ALL 6 SITES, IT WATERS ALL 6 SITES UNTIL I TURN OFF THE PUMP SO THE ROCKWOOL CONTINUES TO GET DRIPPED ON THRU THE COCO LINERS/HYDROTON. THE COCO LINERS WERE GIVEN TO ME WITH THE SYSTEM ALONG WITH 3 INCH NET POTS AND HYDROTON. MY PH IS 5.7 AND IM USING GH FLORA MIX 1/4 STRENGTH FOR THEM NOW AND I WAS GONNA WAIT TILL NEXT WEEK TO UP TO 1/2


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## unity (Aug 31, 2008)

Thanks as always Al


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## archie6214 (Aug 31, 2008)

Good morning Al, I was looking over the homemade batwing reflector in your gallery and was wondering what size (thickness, width, length) sheet of aluminum you would suggest to make one? Also, how effective do you think this DIY version would be compared to the $200 original one. I'm going to attempt to build my own, and will post pics for everyone to view.

Also Al I set my ph at 5.8 yesterday and I just went and checked it now (not even 24hrs later) and the ph has risen to 6.0. Do you know what could be causing this? Thanks again.


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## newportbeach949 (Aug 31, 2008)

hey al

i just started 12/12 cycle 7pm to 7am and today is day 2 of the cycle and my piece of Sht timer flooded my table before lights out today and i just noticed and turned the lights back on for the plants because they were drooping a bit,

they are fine now but i'm just stressin about the pos timer and went and bought a new one 15 minutes ago

should i not worry and just continue tomarow with the 12 12 cycle ?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 31, 2008)

Phinxter said:


> do you see any benefit in this practice of 48 hour lights out before flowering?


 Nope. My clones go straight from the clonebox to flowering. 



bugsrnme said:


> how do i multi quote your quote...like when you break up a paragraph and respond to each sentence.....do i just copy & paste like a madman?


When I reply, I hit the quote button on the post I'm replying to, which gives me an edit box containing the text I want to cite. Then I break it up into the specific queries I need to address. I highlight the text I need to reply to and hit the QUOTE button (




), which wraps that text in quote tags. Then I enter my comments. Looks like this (using curly brackets so you can see the format, normally these have square brackets):{quote}Should I lubricate my owl?{/quote}

why yes, you should, but don't wax your weasel!​


yourname said:


> people with your knowledge and *patients* are rare


Thanks, sorry you had to spend so long in the waiting room with the 14 year old magazines, gotta get new chairs in there too... 



q_tip201 said:


> I was Just wondering what your guys thoughts would be on 4 600w in a single 8 in duct with 1x 786 cfm fan or would it be better for two lights to a run and two fans got my 4 3'x3' tables trying Al's way out


While I prefer no more than 2 in a row, you can daisy-chain up to 3 cooltubes in a row, pushing them with a single 150mm axial blower. Each cooltube will raise the temp of the air going through the duct line by about 7C. If the cooltube intake air is 20C, the air temp in the duct after the first cooltubed lamp in the chain is 27C, 34C after the second, 41C (!) after the 3rd. If you put 4 in a row, the temp at the end of the duct line is 48C (!!). The glass on the (3rd &) 4th tube will get too hot and that heat is convected into the grow room air, negating the purpose of having them. 

You want to run 4 lamps in cooltubes (which are 150mm dia), so you should use *two, separate* duct runs, each with a 150mm blower pushing cool air into the duct lines, with 2 cooltubes in each. This will keep the heat mostly in the air in the cooltubes' ducts instead of warming up the cooltube (and aluminium duct if used) exterior surfaces. Insulated ducting helps keep heat inside the ducts, but isn't essential.

WBW, ALL CAPS in one run-on sentence really doesn't make you *any* more readable! When you write in ALL CAPS- you are YELLING! PLEASE DON'T YELL AT ME!

While I don't expect you to be a professional writer, all the same, I don't want to have to work to decode your writing AND work to sort out your grow problems. *Please* use SENTENCES, such as I've done for you here in my quotation of your last post. The quality of my reply is dependent upon how well I understand your query. Clarity is _*everything*_. Make yourself readable- or make yourself scarce!



wyteberrywidow said:


> THEY ARE UNDER 2X40 WATT FLORO COOL WHITES AND TWO 32 WATT CFL BRIGHT WHITE.
> 
> 6 SEEDLINGS IN ROCKWOOL JUST POPPED OPEN WITH THERE FIRST SET OF LEAVES AND THE ROOTS ARE COMING OUT THE BOTTOM.
> 
> I HAVE A 400 HPS THAT I WANTED TO KEEP ABOUT THREE FEET ABOVE THEM.


Introduce them to the 400 with about 4' clearance for the first week, then drop the light 1' each week until the lamp is about 1' above the nearest leaf tips. 



> THE RAINFORST 36 IS A AEROPONIC SYSTEM THAT HAS A WATER PUMP INSIDE THE RES WITH A PIPE GOING TO THE LID SPRAYING AND DIFFUSING THE WATER TO ALL 6 SITES,
> 
> IT WATERS ALL 6 SITES UNTIL I TURN OFF THE PUMP


This is a job for a timer! Don't rely on yourself to do the watering. 



> SO THE ROCKWOOL CONTINUES TO GET DRIPPED ON THRU THE COCO LINERS/HYDROTON.
> 
> THE COCO LINERS WERE GIVEN TO ME WITH THE SYSTEM ALONG WITH 3 INCH NET POTS AND HYDROTON.


You have rockwool _*below*_ the coco liners and pellets? huh?

If I understand you correctly (and I'm not sure I do), you're drip feeding rockwool on some unknown schedule. Don't drip feed rockwool. Discard the coco liners.

How is it that you have a drip feed when you have an aeroponic system? Aero should be wetting the netpots of pellets from the bottom. The RW cube should be nested in the netpots of pellets with at least 25mm of pellets between the RW & the aero mist so only the pellets are getting dampened.



> MY PH IS 5.7 AND IM USING GH FLORA MIX 1/4 STRENGTH FOR THEM NOW AND I WAS GONNA WAIT TILL NEXT WEEK TO UP TO 1/2


5.7 is close, but pH should be 5.8. 

"1/4 strength" tells me approximately nothing. What's the nutrient strength in ppm?



archie6214 said:


> Good morning Al, I was looking over the homemade batwing reflector in your gallery and was wondering what size (thickness, width, length) sheet of aluminum you would suggest to make one?


The thickness isn't all that critical. The aluminium sheet just has to be thick enough to be stiff enough to hold its shape once you roll it up and put the fold on the centreline. The AAWs are made from 1mm thick aluminium sheet. You can make it any size you like. The larger it is, the more effective it will be in bouncing light down to the plants. 



> Also, how effective do you think this DIY version would be compared to the $200 original one.


The AAWs are made from polished aluminium, the surface of which has thousands of ~1mm dia dimples made with a round-nosed punch. The dimples diffuse light to prevent hotspotting. 



You probably won't be able to faithfully replicate the dimpling in the home workshop. Once you have formed the batwing shape, paint the underside of the batwing with flat white, hi-temp automobile exhaust header paint; this will diffuse light sufficiently and make the DIY unit perform similarly enough to the commercial version to work OK.

The large AAWs are each made from 2 panels of 1mm thick aluminium sheet, 610mm x 700mm wide (width is parallel to the long axis of the HPS bottle), joined at the centre with about 30mm overlap at the join.


> Also Al I set my ph at 5.8 yesterday and I just went and checked it now (not even 24hrs later) and the ph has risen to 6.0. Do you know what could be causing this?


Could be a couple of things. If you're using rockwool media, RW has a small amount of limestone dust remaining from manufacturing. This will cause pH to bump up a little until the limestone dust is either flushed out of the medium or is neutralised by reacting with acids in the nutrient mix. Pathogen infections of the system can do the same, but often much more dramatically than .2 in 24h. Use H2O2 50% grade at 1ml/L in your tank, reapplied every 3-4 days to stop pathogens dead in their tracks as well as introduce O2 directly into your roots. This should be part of your routine. H2O2 must be applied regularly to do any good. 



newportbeach949 said:


> hey al
> 
> i just started 12/12 cycle 7pm to 7am and today is day 2 of the cycle and my piece of Sht timer flooded my table before lights out today and i just noticed and turned the lights back on for the plants because they were drooping a bit,


So what happened? Your timer didn't shut off and they were flooded all night? I'm not clear on what the problem is. 

Leaves normally droop a little during lights-off. Not a worry. Turn the lights on, photosynthesis restarts and they again begin to transpire water, which plumps up the cells and makes the leaves stand erect (*baby!* ). The droop will go away in about 10-15 mins post lights-on. 

Droopy leaves DURING lights-on are a sign of trouble- usually means the roots can't supply the needs of the plant. 



> they are fine now but i'm just stressin about the pos timer and went and bought a new one 15 minutes ago
> 
> should i not worry and just continue tomarow with the 12 12 cycle ?


You're fine, carry on.


----------



## BigBudBalls (Aug 31, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> The AAWs are made from polished aluminium, the surface of which has thousands of ~1mm dia dimples made with a round-nosed punch. The dimples diffuse light to prevent hotspotting.
> 
> You probably won't be able to faithfully replicate the dimpling in the home workshop. Once you have formed the batwing shape, paint the underside of the batwing with flat white, hi-temp automobile exhaust header paint; this will diffuse light sufficiently and make the DIY unit perform similarly enough to the commercial version to work OK.



But you may be able to buy a sheet from the mill. I doubt they dimple the sheet and make the bat-wing. Kinda waste of a punch press time vs cost.

Gonna look into getting sheets pre-dimpled. Kinda my industry.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Aug 31, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> But you may be able to buy a sheet from the mill. I doubt they dimple the sheet and make the bat-wing. Kinda waste of a punch press time vs cost.
> 
> Gonna look into getting sheets pre-dimpled. Kinda my industry.


Works for me! 

If you find a maker/retailer of 1mm dimpled, 1mm thick alu sheet please share your research. Since this is your line of work, I'd like to know what type of alu is best- 3003? 6061? Thanks.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 31, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> how do i multi quote your quote...like when you break up a paragraph and respond to each sentence.....do i just copy & paste like a madman?


Wrap the text you want to appear as a quotation in QUOTE tags as described a post ago.

If you reply by hitting the quote button




at the bottom of the post, all text from the last post is copied into the editing window- *EXCEPT text which appeared as a quote in the post you are citing*. This prevents excessive clutter by not permitting several layers of embedded quotes. 

Unfortunately, because you put your comments inside the quote tags in the last post you made, I did have to copy/paste your text into this comment instead of it appearing automagically in my new post. 



> ya flip it...like i set the timer to come on at 6:00 a.m. now i wann change it to night time running and i figured this bulb situation would be a good time to do it.


If you want to shift a flowering room from a 6am-6pm lights-on time to 6pm to 6am, give them one long 'night' and begin the new sked. So, if your on-time sked was 6am-6pm on Monday, leave the lights off from 6pm Monday until 6pm Tuesday, when you begin your new 6pm-6am sked. You can do it now but wouldn't matter if your HPS lights were functioning as usual. 

I wouldn't make a habit of shifting the photoperiod. I also do not change my light cycle timing for daylight savings time. 




> bummer....thought i could just top up the nutes....if i gotta make a new batch then i might as well clean em' to


Topping up nutes is a serious no-no. This is a topic I've covered before. 



> In particular, _*don't*_ add more nutrient concentrate to a half-eaten, existing tank of nutes in between mixing up fresh tanks.
> 
> Nutrient mixes are engineered to provide N, P & K not just in adequate _quantity_ but in _proper proportion_ for a certain phase of growth. Flowering nutes, in example, have a high ratio of P to N & K. Plants may use N, P & K at differing rates at different stages of growth. When you mix up a fresh tank, the NPK ratios will be right, per the maker's intentions.
> 
> After several days of that tank of sauce feeding the plants, let's say that half the P is gone, 1/4 of the N is used and 2/3 of the K is eaten. If you then add more nutrient concentrate, you're going to wind up with N, P & K in proportions that the maker did not intend- and may not be right for the plants.


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## grandpabear3 (Aug 31, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Wrap the text you want to appear as a quotation in QUOTE tags as described a post ago.
> 
> If you reply by hitting the quote button
> 
> ...


 well i feel like i just got in trouble. but thanks for thr info again.
hey al ...any thoughts on elite membership....pros, cons etc...


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## BigBudBalls (Aug 31, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Works for me!
> 
> If you find a maker/retailer of 1mm dimpled, 1mm thick alu sheet please share your research. Since this is your line of work, I'd like to know what type of alu is best- 3003? 6061? Thanks.


I'm no metallurgist (just CNC lasers on the tech side.) But depends on the application. For the bat wing the 3003 looks a bit nicer. But for cost, go with the cheaper. (scrap bins and yards are a great cheap resource. You should see what I see customer toss in a scrap bin!)

But I will post any find.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 31, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> well i feel like i just got in trouble. but thanks for thr info again.


In trouble? I might be a source of information, but I'm not an authority figure. The day I become an authority figure is the day I have a strychnine milkshake with cyanide sprinkles. I'm an _*anti*_-authority figure. 



> hey al ...any thoughts on elite membership....pros, cons etc...


None. I guess it gives you some more features. If I don't know what they are, I must not need them. I sure don't need the 'elite' badge. Along with being anti-authority, I'm anti-elitist. I'm common rabble and proud of it! 




BigBudBalls said:


> I'm no metallurgist (just CNC lasers on the tech side.)


*JUST* CNC lasers... _*"JUST"*_, he says.  

I'd give one of my livers for a CNC laser cutting machine!



> But depends on the application. For the bat wing the 3003 looks a bit nicer.


I guess it depends on how you make the thing. While I suggest rolling the sheet up into a cylinder, the commercially made AAW is supplied as two flat sheets with a crease forming a lip at either end providing lateral stiffness. The parabola shape is formed by a pair of stainless wires pulling the ends of the joined sheets together, bending them into a smooth parabolic curve. I guess you could avoid rolling the stuff up if you had the right kind of alu with the right amount of stiffness. A different type of alu, which takes and holds a bend easily, might be better for the roll-up method. I do kinda need the metallurgical information on the difference between the different numbered types of the stuff to know. Might not need to be a metallurgist to get that data, just a good Googler. I haven't looked very hard for the data yet. 



> But for cost, go with the cheaper. (scrap bins and yards are a great cheap resource. You should see what I see customer toss in a scrap bin!)


yeah, I haunt my local metals suppliers bins. They hate me for it and yell at me, say I'm a safety risk (but I brought my thick leather gloves, she'll be right, mate!!) etc. I raid the bins on Friday arvo when the mob is off early, gone to the pub. 



> But I will post any find.


good onya, thanks.


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## fitzyno1 (Aug 31, 2008)

Hi Al B,
Just a thought, do the roots at the bottom of your pots ever have root rot as they are always in rockwool that is saturated with nutes? 
Would a few layers of pellets hold the pots down instead of rockwool?


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## BigBudBalls (Aug 31, 2008)

Well a parabola is a defined curve and focal point, no? The SS lines I doubt actually keep it. Actually it can't. The length of the curve remains constant. 
I'd opt more for a few strategically pleces beads rolled into the sheet to stiffen it to adjust the curve characteristics.
Though could also be done with the 'pebble finish' with HUGE amounts of engineering.(or even more expensive T&E)

3003 work hardens (just bending it will start the hardening) So roll the whole thing then reverse the roll for the inner section to straighten it back out and harden it a bit more.

6061 really depends on the tempering #.

But try:
http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/3003.asp#Spec




Al B. Fuct said:


> *JUST* CNC lasers... _*"JUST"*_, he says.
> 
> I'd give one of my livers for a CNC laser cutting machine!
> 
> ...


----------



## gvega187 (Aug 31, 2008)

yo al,

I accidentally gave my oldest flowering cylce a near lethal dose of sulfur vapor yesterday. The directions that came with the burner were dangerous and disastrous. 

I understand sulfur vaporizers raise the ph on the plants surface thus killing powdery mildew.

My leaves are curling up pretty quick at the tips and leaves are yellowing. I also know that ph problems can cause leaf curling and this similar yellowing. 

is there any way I can correct this? might I spray down the leaves with a higher ph water? Sorry no pics yet.


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## gvega187 (Aug 31, 2008)

yes i did use the vaporizer during dark cycle


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 31, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> Hi Al B,
> Just a thought, do the roots at the bottom of your pots ever have root rot as they are always in rockwool that is saturated with nutes?


No, and there's several reasons why I don't get any rot. 


I use H2O2
water in the layer of floc is never stagnant (without any dissolved O2) because the relatively thin layer of floc is forcibly flushed with oxygenated nute solneach time the tray floods; a pot stuffed only with floc behaves differently to the 25-50mm layer, when saturated, tending to not allow any solution in until some has been taken out by the plant
By the time plants are large enough to have set down roots in the bottom layer of floc, they are large enough to remove a significant portion of the waterin the floc before I water again



> Would a few layers of pellets hold the pots down instead of rockwool?


I don't think so; pellets are rather buoyant themselves. Since pellets absorb almost no water while RW absorbs many times its weight in water, saturated RW would weigh several times what an equivalent volume of wet pellets would. 

The other purpose for the floc is to keep the Fytocell in the pots. I don't think a layer of pellets would keep the Fytocell crumbs in the pot. I think the crumbs would rinse through the gaps in the pellets and into my trays/tanks.



BigBudBalls said:


> Well a parabola is a defined curve and focal point, no? The SS lines I doubt actually keep it. Actually it can't.


 

huh? Then this is impossible!

These refs came out of a flat package. It is the spring tension of the alu sheet working against the stainless wires which connect the far ends together which hold this reflector in the double parabola shape. 



> But try:
> http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/3003.asp#Spec


thanks for the linkage. 



gvega187 said:


> yo al,
> 
> I accidentally gave my oldest flowering cylce a near lethal dose of sulfur vapor yesterday. The directions that came with the burner were dangerous and disastrous.


Oh? What did the instructions say? 

How long was your timer set to run the 'burner'?

Did you USE a timer? You didn't plug it in & walk away, did you?



> I understand sulfur vaporizers raise the ph on the plants surface thus killing powdery mildew.
> 
> My leaves are curling up pretty quick at the tips and leaves are yellowing. I also know that ph problems can cause leaf curling and this similar yellowing.


yep...


> is there any way I can correct this? might I spray down the leaves with a higher ph water? Sorry no pics yet.


Not higher, lower. 

I might spray them down with something slightly acidic to counter the alkalinity of the S, perhaps a thorough wetting with pH 5.8 water.


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## sparkafire (Aug 31, 2008)

Hey ABF bugsrnme and myself have the same strain WW and both of our mums showed sex DURING vegetation. Could this be some of our problems cloning? I have read where its hard to clone during the flowering stage so i was wondering. HMMMMM 

Oh and i just sent your royality check for August. 

Sparky


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 31, 2008)

sparkafire said:


> Hey ABF bugsrnme and myself have the same strain WW and both of our mums showed sex DURING vegetation.


Sometimes preflowers ARE gender specific, sometimes they're not. You occasionally get a plant that pops up a couple calyxes out of a preflower at a node- if so, lucky you!



> Could this be some of our problems cloning? I have read where its hard to clone during the flowering stage so i was wondering. HMMMMM


I don't think the two are related. Problems cloning have usually got to do with pathogens in the media, overwet media, devoid of oxygen, which encourages pathogens, etc. I've never found one strain to be more or less easy to clone. They're all about the same. Get the conds right, you'll get roots. 



> Oh and i just sent your royality check for August.


Would you prefer your next roll of licences to be scented or unscented? With or without pink bunnies and floral embossing?


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## Rocky Top High (Aug 31, 2008)

I am late (as usual) but don't mind me. I am going to pull up a seat and just listen. I have read this thread from post one so I am now "caught up". Thanks AL, you are a ganja guru and I appreciate your giving back to the community.


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 1, 2008)

tahnks al b and its an aero system the water gets misted on the coco liners which then drips thru the liner and rocks,and rockwool i will dispose of the coco liners and just fill the cups up with the hydoton and rockwool i just dont want to keep the rockwools soaked. i dont want root rot


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## BigBudBalls (Sep 1, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> huh? Then this is impossible!
> 
> These refs came out of a flat package. It is the spring tension of the alu sheet working against the stainless wires which connect the far ends together which hold this reflector in the double parabola shape.
> 
> thanks for the linkage.


No. But a parabola is a ever expanding curve. Typically with a focal point (the bulb would be the focal) By keeping the length of the curve the same (length of the sheet) the acuracy of the reflector is compromised over it range since the focal (bulb) is in the same spot.

Parabola - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Picture L a bit down shows it best.

Granted I'm splitting hairs. (I get that way at times)


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 1, 2008)

yeah, but this ref isn't a single parabola, it's a double parabola.


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## Phinxter (Sep 1, 2008)

naybe we should get mythbusters on the case  lol


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## q_tip201 (Sep 1, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> While I prefer no more than 2 in a row, you can daisy-chain up to 3 cooltubes in a row, pushing them with a single 150mm axial blower. Each cooltube will raise the temp of the air going through the duct line by about 7C. If the cooltube intake air is 20C, the air temp in the duct after the first cooltubed lamp in the chain is 27C, 34C after the second, 41C (!) after the 3rd. If you put 4 in a row, the temp at the end of the duct line is 48C (!!). The glass on the (3rd &) 4th tube will get too hot and that heat is convected into the grow room air, negating the purpose of having them.
> 
> You want to run 4 lamps in cooltubes (which are 150mm dia), so you should use *two, separate* duct runs, each with a 150mm blower pushing cool air into the duct lines, with 2 cooltubes in each. This will keep the heat mostly in the air in the cooltubes' ducts instead of warming up the cooltube (and aluminium duct if used) exterior surfaces. Insulated ducting helps keep heat inside the ducts, but isn't essential.
> 
> ...


My apologies. Not intending any yelling or disrespect.

Was in a hurry, typed the message as i was running out the door.

Recently ran through your "Get A Harvest Every 2 Weeks" thread and was already in the process of designing an upgrade. I decided to do 4 3'x3' tables with 600w hps over each. space restrictions will require all tables to sit against the wall next to each other, and as i was thinking common sense told me at the end of a run with 4 lights the heat would have to be building up pretty bad figured i'd ask to make sure because i would like the best for my babies.

Thanks for your response. No disrespect intended. Nor did I intend to confuse you with my quick typing. You are a rare asset to this site, and a gigantic help to all of us in the process of replicating your successes. I only hope one day my yields might be able to match yours and as I gain my own experience with this style of growing i only hope to be able to master it and produce the best yields. best of luck to you mate imm off to start this thread from begining and take notes thnx


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## DR. VonDankenstine (Sep 1, 2008)

Just stoping by to say hello and see how your doing brother--hope things are good in your neck of the woods. Take care.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 1, 2008)

q_tip201 said:


> My apologies. Not intending any yelling or disrespect.


My comments about all caps etc were not directed at you. Note "*WBW*, ALL CAPS in one run-on sentence really doesn't make you *any* more readable! "


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 1, 2008)

DR. VonDankenstine said:


> Just stoping by to say hello and see how your doing brother--hope things are good in your neck of the woods. Take care.


yeh, ok, the usual, kinda busy is all.


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## waterwitch (Sep 1, 2008)

take a zpack and get some rest teacher, look forward to your posts when you are well!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 1, 2008)

zpack? wozzat?

Can I have some speed instead? I have a couple days work to do in 8 hours and only have enough energy to go back to bed at this moment.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 1, 2008)

I really have to stay offline for a day or two. Spending too much time on the computer, not enough on the harvesting task. 

I'll try to keep after queries as they appear but please pardon me if I don't get to them for a day or so.


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## brontobrandon1 (Sep 1, 2008)

al b i have a quick question, how well do u think 1 600 watt with a light mover moving over 2 3x3 tables would do?? 

also u think u can get a good new close up pic of some of your babies your harvesting?? that would be great


peace


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 1, 2008)

I've commented a couple of times on light movers. This is from page 22...



> Light movers are not a good thing, anyway. It's better to have a stationary lamp that suits the size of the space you're trying to light rather than trying to spread light out over an area that is really too large for that particular lamp.
> 
> With movers, you have a new figure to contemplate; lux-hours (lumens per sq metre per hour). When a mover has the lamp over one end of the grow, it's not over the other. You have to derate the amount of light the plants are getting owing to the mover having the light elsewhere for a certain amount of time.
> 
> ...


I'll do some pics if I can.


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## torrezzz (Sep 1, 2008)

Hi Al. I asked you in one of the first few pages about feeding plants in a 4x4 tray in pots full of hydroton. I was flooding 3 times a day now I flood 5 times and I have seen a marked improvement in my plants. Each flood is about 10 minutes long from first water hitting the tray to last water draining back out. My lights go on at 8 am and off at 8pm. I flood at 8, 12, 2, 4, and 8. My question is should I flood at night? Or before the light comes on in the morning? My timer allows for 8 on/offs but as I said, I am only using 5 of them for now.


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## 989dboy (Sep 1, 2008)

Damn so much reading got to take it day by day. You got alot of knowledge in your noggin Shawty.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 2, 2008)

torrezzz said:


> Hi Al. I asked you in one of the first few pages about feeding plants in a 4x4 tray in pots full of hydroton. I was flooding 3 times a day now I flood 5 times and I have seen a marked improvement in my plants.


Great, good to hear it. 



> Each flood is about 10 minutes long from first water hitting the tray to last water draining back out. My lights go on at 8 am and off at 8pm. I flood at 8, 12, 2, 4, and 8.


mmm, ok, your last flood is right at lights-off, I prefer to see last watering no less than an hour before lights-off.



> My question is should I flood at night?


no, only in lights-on. 


> Or before the light comes on in the morning? My timer allows for 8 on/offs but as I said, I am only using 5 of them for now.


Try flooding at 8a, 10a, 12n, 2p, 4p & 6p. BTW, most folks run their flowering lights at night, when ambient air available to draw into the op is cooler. 



989dboy said:


> Damn so much reading got to take it day by day. You got alot of knowledge in your noggin Shawty.


thanks. Gotta keep up, this thread moves fast!


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## rbahadosingh (Sep 2, 2008)

hey al. any tips on getting rid of spidermites?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 2, 2008)

rbahadosingh said:


> hey al. any tips on getting rid of spidermites?


Burning the grow room to the ground will knock them every time. 

Here's what I've said before about mites:



> If you have mites, you have to clean the entire op, vac everything, thoroughly spray all plants esp under leaves and all surfaces in the grow. Even the general area and path leading to the grow must be cleaned and treated. Plants near the entry to the house should be checked and treated or removed if infested. Azaleas are mite hotels.
> 
> Mites are bastards and very persistent. All treatment has to be done at once to have any hope of getting rid of the bastards. Half-measures will guarantee they will be back and likely resistant to the miticide. Short acting miticides are the tool for the job, like Avid or any other miticide containing abamectin, aka avamectin.
> 
> Avid has a 14 day withholding period post-treatment. After that, it is OK to consume or smoke the treated plant material.


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## saturnlily (Sep 2, 2008)

hey you seem to help alot of people out with there problems.... thanks for all the help to everyone. you must have exp. up the butt. lol..... um i have a prob. im pretty sure you can help me with. my plants leaves are curling upward and on the top in the middle growing outward my plant it losing color ... meaning turning light green. is it a simple over watering or is there somthing seriously wrong? 

heres some pics: 

Thanks again from me and everyone *puff,puff, and passes it on to you*


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 2, 2008)

saturnlily said:


> you must have exp. up the butt. lol.....


Funnily enough, 'up the butt' isn't amongst my experience set. I have only ONE tattoo; it's a downward pointing arrow on my lower back with the words "EXIT ONLY." 



> is it a simple over watering or is there somthing seriously wrong?


If the medium has been kept saturated, it probably is overwatering. Allow the medium to lose at least half its water weight before watering again.


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## saturnlily (Sep 2, 2008)

thank you so much!!! lol, ya i wasnt meaning it that way just meant alot as in ....well lol, alot. ok, will do i just wanted to make sure thanks again and have a good day.


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## Chumlie (Sep 2, 2008)

Al, just wondering what is the best procedure to get rid of brown, slimy roots?


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 2, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> one thing while I'm thinking of it... it's really quite surprising how LITTLE you need to grow great dope with hydroponics. Nutes and pathogen control, pH adjustment as needed. That's all. No bloom blaster, bud lead, monster hooey, bee semen or other madness are needed... Incidentally, don't depend on your local hydro shop clerk for advice on magic sauces. If s/he really knew what they were talking about, they'd not be hawking magic sauces at minimum wage for a crust- they'd be running productive grow ops.



Dude...that's about the funniest and truest shit I've ever heard!!! 

Rock on!!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 2, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Al, just wondering what is the best procedure to get rid of brown, slimy roots?


 Apply H2O2 50% grade @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days to nutrient solutions. Will knock it fast. If you have a large accumulation of pathogens in your nute sauce (may appear as whitish, gelatinous gack in the tank), do a 1-shot shock treatment with 50% grade H2O2 @ 5ml/L then return to dosing on the usual rate/sked.



corral hollow kid said:


> Dude...that's about the funniest and truest shit I've ever heard!!!
> 
> Rock on!!!


Well, I have the distinct disadvantage of having wholesale accts at a few hydro equip suppliers. I know what the retail shops are paying for their product and thus their markup. I also know a fair bit about marketing. Read the information-poor labels on these magic sauces with a critical eye and a clue about what plants really need... and you'll be as astonished and sceptical as I am about what is claimed for some of these sauces.


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## Chumlie (Sep 2, 2008)

Well Im sure its in the res, but the weird thing is only one plant has the problem the rest seem to be fine I think it has been over watered. It happen when I change the res about three days ago cus of fungus, so when I put them all back I lightly sprayed the top of the pelets with fungusicide. On this perticular plant there was signs of thrips. You know that shiny shit on the leaves so I sprayed it with insecticide.

That could be the answer right there. Also I can only get 3%. Ill look back to see if I can find your amount for that, but I use organics so I don't know about that one.

Also, how would a airpurifier put more moisture in the air, since I got one my moisture has gone from 50-60% to 71%. Whats up with that?


----------



## fitzyno1 (Sep 2, 2008)

Al, have you started using PK 13-14 again, on week 5 of flowering? 
If so, was there a big different from not using it?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 2, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> I lightly sprayed the top of the pelets with fungusicide.


Sorry, that will have no effect. Most of the pathogen load will be in the res & rootmass, not on the surface of the pellets. What did you use for a fungicide?



> On this perticular plant there was signs of thrips. You know that shiny shit on the leaves so I sprayed it with insecticide.


Yep, thrips can be a problem. They're persistent, too. Not quite as tough as spider mites but very small and hard to totally get rid of. What insecticide did you use? Did you vacuum out the entire op & spray _*everything*_, all at once? That's what it takes. 



> That could be the answer right there. Also I can only get 3%. Ill look back to see if I can find your amount for that,


3% is simply impractical in a hydro op. It requires 17ml/L at that strength, every 3-4 days. In my 125L tanks, that would be 2125ml per tank every 3-4 days. Since the chemist usually stocks 250ml bottles of the 3% stuff, I'd need 8.5 bottles per tank every 3-4 days- and I have 4 tanks in my flowering area, so I'd need 34x 250ml bottles every 3-4 days. You think the local chemist will notice? 

You won't find 50% (or 35%) at your chemist, you'll have to go to a hydro shop. 



> but I use organics so I don't know about that one.


Stop right there. H2O2 is not compatible with organic nutes. H2O2 will break down organic nutrient molecules in the same way it attacks organic pathogens. Either use standard non-organic nutes or find an organic means of pathogen control, which is usually by way of competing organisms. 

You're on your own with organic nutes. It's an awful lot harder to maintain a hydro op pathogen free if you cannot use H2O2. Remember, 'organic' means 'sourced from decomposing organic matter' not 'better' or 'safer.'



> Also, how would a airpurifier put more moisture in the air, since I got one my moisture has gone from 50-60% to 71%. Whats up with that?


Your air purifier is not adding any water to the air. Either your ambient air's humidity has gone up or you have added more wet things in the op which are transpiring moisture into the room air. Is the ambient air temp, that which you draw into the op, different from when you installed the purifier? Cooler, perhaps? Changed any of the ventilation system lately?


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## Madg420 (Sep 2, 2008)

All my females are turning hermie, I have a 3x4x7 room w/ a 400w HPS it sits around 75 all the time, not sure the humidity i dont have a meter, but its not humid nor dry, they're only 1.5 weeks into flowering and 1 had 3 beautiful looking tops lots of white hairs coming out, then the nodes all look like they're male?!?! Do male tops look like white haired buds and I'm just a noob? or are they going hermie on me??? I have no light leaks, I had a power box w/ a red L.E.D on it I was told that would aggervate plants and cause them to possibly hermie, From the sounds of it you put most myths to shame so whats your opinion on the situation and is it to late to turn back if they started??? The genetics are Nirvana Big Bud and Nirvana Master Kush. Thanks!!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 2, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> Al, have you started using PK 13-14 again, on week 5 of flowering?
> If so, was there a big different from not using it?


I've shifted that specification to wk 6 but did add some when I mixed new tanks yesterday. I have a batch of inexplicably stunted plants in tray 4 at the moment, so they will not produce a fair comparison to what PK will do with healthy plants. 

I have noted that yield is down in the batches where I have not used it but there were other problems going on in those batches and I eliminated everything non-essential to try to eliminate any possible causes.

I keep telling everyone here that I'm NOT any kind of guru- I _*do*_ get it wrong sometimes and do have trouble sorting out my own op from time to time- this happens to be one of those times! The onset of winter changed some of my conds and I'm just now sorting things out.


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## Chumlie (Sep 2, 2008)

Fungicide: Safer Brand
Insecticide: Bonide
both organic

No, change in anything but puting the purifier to catch things in the air. Right now I can't do everything like the pro's do, but iventually I'll get everything in a room only disign for a grow op.
But like I said its only that one plant so could it be over watering?
Next time Im going to do dripFed/veg and ebb&flow/flowering.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 2, 2008)

Madg420 said:


> All my females are turning hermie, I have a 3x4x7 room w/ a 400w HPS it sits around 75 all the time, not sure the humidity i dont have a meter, but its not humid nor dry, they're only 1.5 weeks into flowering and 1 had 3 beautiful looking tops lots of white hairs coming out, then the nodes all look like they're male?!?! Do male tops look like white haired buds and I'm just a noob? or are they going hermie on me??? I have no light leaks, I had a power box w/ a red L.E.D on it I was told that would aggervate plants and cause them to possibly hermie, From the sounds of it you put most myths to shame so whats your opinion on the situation and is it to late to turn back if they started??? The genetics are Nirvana Big Bud and Nirvana Master Kush. Thanks!!!


Pix would be very useful here, please. 

A peak-memory thermometer/hygrometer is a necessary bit of kit. Put that on your shopping list. You need to know with some surety what's going on in your absence. 

White hairs indicate female buds. See the GrowFAQ for the appearance differences between males and females.

A single red LED pilot lamp is quite unlikely to cause hermaphrodism across an entire batch. You can tape it over if it makes you uncomfortable or to simply eliminate it as a cause. 

Sometimes you get bad DNA in a batch of seeds, prone to herms. I hope that's not the case here. Do your research, find out what male & female flowers should look like, post some pics & we'll talk about it again.


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## Jeebus (Sep 2, 2008)

Hey Al,

I built a scrog cabinet, along with a clone section and a mother chamber. I figure the screen will be anywhere from 8-10 inches above the grow medium. I plan to grow in RW/Hydroton, letting the roots go down to the hydroton. Ebb/Flow. I have 10 seeds coming to me. 

My goal is to grow these seeds, get rid of the males, get clones off females, flower and harvest the females, and choose a mother from the clones based on the best plant.

My problem is how I can sex the plants before they get put into the scrog setup. Or it might be how to best manage removing males from a scrog setup if I cannot sex them before it would be too late to fit them into the screen.

Do you have any input on how I can best go about that, or if it would even be possible?

If all else fails, I can just germ a couple seeds, sex their clones and make any ol female a mother, but I would prefer to get the best genetics of the bunch, and ideally getting the best bang for my time.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 2, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Fungicide: Safer Brand
> Insecticide: Bonide
> both organic


Sorry, I don't know these products by their brand names. What's in them? What's the active ingredient as listed on the label?



> No, change in anything but puting the purifier to catch things in the air.


I can promise you this much, it's not your purifier adding moisture to the air. Something else has changed, perhaps the ambient RH is higher or ambient temp is cooler. 



> But like I said its only that one plant so could it be over watering?


could be, but H2O2 will sort it out. Adjust your watering so you don't water this plant until 50% of its stored water weight is used up.



> Next time Im going to do dripFed/veg and ebb&flow/flowering.


Why not just run flood for everything? Why the difference? Drip systems have this nasty tendency to clog drippers, requiring cleaning every other day to prevent clogging the drippers with nute salts.


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## Chumlie (Sep 2, 2008)

My two other option for RH is fast plant growth despensing moisture are the bad weather were having in this area for the last 3 weeks may have increas the RH.

This is what the label looks like
Safer
Active In.................BY WT


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## Chumlie (Sep 2, 2008)

Sorry about that.

Sulfur................0.40%
other in.............99.60%

Bonide
active in 
Potassium salts of fatty acids......1% says does not persist in inviroment
other in............99%


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## archie6214 (Sep 2, 2008)

Hey Al could you tell me where I should cut this to top my plant? And by doing this it will make my plant what? I know this is a lame question I just want to make sure I don't screw my plants up. Thanks again!!


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## nashbar (Sep 2, 2008)

dear al,
love what your doing here.

i'm having trouble with my first grow, i'm over six weeks into flowering and have damage that is still spreading despite my best efforts. 

i have two DWC 5gal buckets, GH nutrients. i have trouble keeping the pH 5.3-5.5, i can't keep pH below 7.2 for 1day. 

my municipal water is bad, pH=7.5 and tds=350ppm. 

day 1 (new water, let sit in a bucket for 24hr+)
i adjust pH down to 5.5, tds=500ppm. add some nutrients up to 1000+ppm.

day 2
ph=7.2 and tds=1300+ppm
adjust pH down to 5.5, tds=1700ppm

day 3
pH=7.2 and tds=1900+ppm

the tds goes very high from adding so much pH down.

after about 3-4 weeks of flowering, plants in one bucket started to get yellow spots on the top leaves, eventually turning the top of the plants very yellow and dry. the plants in my second bucket are more developed having gone 6+weeks flowering without problems but are now starting to turn yellow also.

i knew my water was a problem, i picked up a Mr Clean Autodry thing. it's a deionizer (i think), the filtered water is pH=7.2 and tds=7ppm.

with the filtered water, the same thing happens with my pH. i pH down, the next day it's 7+, i pH down again, the next day it's 7+.

with the filtered water, i can go another day or two before the tds gets above 2000ppm.

it seems like there is a buffer or something in my water making it hard to maintain acidic water.

i'd prefer not use store bought water, i'd rather buy a RO system but that may not solve my pH problem.

thanks much for reading all that.


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## fitzyno1 (Sep 2, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I've shifted that specification to wk 6 but did add some when I mixed new tanks yesterday. I have a batch of inexplicably stunted plants in tray 4 at the moment, so they will not produce a fair comparison to what PK will do with healthy plants.
> 
> I have noted that yield is down in the batches where I have not used it but there were other problems going on in those batches and I eliminated everything non-essential to try to eliminate any possible causes.
> 
> I keep telling everyone here that I'm NOT any kind of guru- I _*do*_ get it wrong sometimes and do have trouble sorting out my own op from time to time- this happens to be one of those times! The onset of winter changed some of my conds and I'm just now sorting things out.


Maybe you need to use RO water LOL


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## \x0D (Sep 2, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> Maybe you need to use RO water LOL


(grabs a bag of popcorn , gets in bunker. LOL)


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## saturnlily (Sep 3, 2008)

hey, thanks for the easy answer on that overwatering bit 2 of the 3 are better... the 3rd is growing and all but i just noticed that it has blackish coloring underneath the leaves.... now i know over watering doesnt do THAT... can you tell me what wrong with it? i hope i can fix it...


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## edux10 (Sep 3, 2008)

archie6214 said:


> Hey Al could you tell me where I should cut this to top my plant? And by doing this it will make my plant what? I know this is a lame question I just want to make sure I don't screw my plants up. Thanks again!!


I know Im not Al but if you cut the top off of that then all those little side nodes will pop out and make new 'tops' that is how you see those big ol bushes with mad spears exploding out. You could do it one time then let it grow and then do it again and again. That is more of an outdoor thing to do, that is how you get them big ol trees like FFD has pics of. You should just do it once though. I would say do it at the top as you will have more branches to come out and make new tops but its up to you. It may look nicer to do it at the top too so it wont leave a little stick poking out. I donno. Its called FIMmind for 'Fuck I midded' clipping. I am no expert but I didn't see anyone else answering this question and it b pretty simple...


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

holy sheepshit, I take a day off of the forum, work in the op and make a 200km round trip to the hydro shop... and I've got about 50 messages to reply to... bear with me.



Jeebus said:


> how I can sex the plants before they get put into the scrog setup.


 Your best bet is to take some clones off the vegging plants, get them to set root and then flower them to determine sex. If you're going to do that, you may as well SoG. SCRoG takes time vegging the plants to be flowered and fiddling about tying branches to the screen. Why bother? Once you have sexed mums, just start taking cuttings and flowering them as soon as they set root. Grow as many as 4 per sq ft.



Chumlie said:


> My two other option for RH is fast plant growth despensing moisture are the bad weather were having in this area for the last 3 weeks may have increas the RH.


 Probably both, but rainy weather is probably the largest part of it. 



Chumlie said:


> Sulfur................0.40%
> other in.............99.60%


 Sulfur! Simple as.  99.6% stuff that doesn't do anything! Sulfur is a well known and widely used antifungal- but calling it 'organic' is a stretch. Probably cheaper to buy some sulfur powder at the garden shop (about $5/500g) and mix up your own or better yet, use it in a sufur 'burner'- great for stopping powdery mildew or fungus- _*on leaves*_. However, you won't want to use it in the nutes or in the rootzone as S will seriously raise the pH. Use the H2O2 instead, 50% grade @ 1ml/L in your nutes, won't mess with the pH. 



> Bonide
> active in
> Potassium salts of fatty acids......1% says does not persist in inviroment
> other in............99%


 Potassium salts of fatty acids..? Oh man! That's just freakin' _*soap!*_ Again, a huge proportion, 99%, is inert. But is it _*organic*_? Depends on how organic the animal fat used to make the soap is!  I bet you can come up with your own 99% water + 1% liquid soap solution for a lot less dough. 

However, unless you soak every thrip in the op with soapy water, your problem will come back. The same insecticide I recommend for mites, avamectin aka abamectin, as found in the product 'Avid', is a much surer thing. Make use you vac like mad, get rid of any old leaf material ASAP, and spray the bejesus out of the op. Thrips become reistant to insecticides readily, so you'll have to use another insecticide if they come back. 



archie6214 said:


> Hey Al could you tell me where I should cut this to top my plant? And by doing this it will make my plant what? I know this is a lame question I just want to make sure I don't screw my plants up. Thanks again!!


 You can cut it at either point. This will make the plant bush out. This is a proper procedure for raising up mother plants so you get nice long stems to make cuttings from.



nashbar said:


> i have two DWC 5gal buckets, GH nutrients. i have trouble keeping the pH 5.3-5.5, i can't keep pH below 7.2 for 1day.


 You're shooting way too low. You're looking for 5.8. 5.3-5.5 will lock out Mg and cause yellow leaves with black spots, slow growth, etc. 

The pH swing is probably pathogens. Using H2O2? If not, add 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days. Will kill the pathogens that are swinging your pH around. 



> my municipal water is bad, pH=7.5 and tds=350ppm.


 Your water is fine. About the same as mine.



fitzyno1 said:


> Maybe you need to use RO water LOL


 Not bloody likely! I suspect a pH meter that was lying to me. 



saturnlily said:


> hey, thanks for the easy answer on that overwatering bit 2 of the 3 are better... the 3rd is growing and all but i just noticed that it has blackish coloring underneath the leaves.... now i know over watering doesnt do THAT... can you tell me what wrong with it? i hope i can fix it...


Looks more purplish to me. What's the pH? Could be too low, locking out P.


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## saturnlily (Sep 3, 2008)

if anything maybe to high... its at exactly 7 right now just checked, thing is the plants are still soaked so i cant give it anything that i know of to lower the ph even if i wanted to....


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

saturnlily said:


> if anything maybe to high... its at exactly 7 right now just checked, thing is the plants are still soaked so i cant give it anything that i know of to lower the ph even if i wanted to....


OK, let's see what the pH chart sez:







heh, at 7, you have P locked out from the other end (and lots of other things, too!) Usually when I see purpling from P def, pH has been shot too low. 

Shift the pH of your nute soln with some pHDown to 5.8 in subsequent waterings. Should make the purpling go away in the new growth.


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## crazy-mental (Sep 3, 2008)

saturnlily said:


> if anything maybe to high... its at exactly 7 right now just checked, thing is the plants are still soaked so i cant give it anything that i know of to lower the ph even if i wanted to....


 ive had plants go like that "purple".
i had a strain called indigo that goes that colour.
or it could be ph or high or low temps?.
i wouldnt really worry, if your doing everything right it should grow itself out.


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## crazy-mental (Sep 3, 2008)

looking it could be temps, what is your light sced and what lights and temps your getting day and night.


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## saturnlily (Sep 3, 2008)

k thanks again


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

crazy-mental said:


> ive had plants go like that "purple".
> i had a strain called indigo that goes that colour.


Genetically purple plants are raaaaaaaaare. The vast majority of purple buds come from sick or stressed plants. 



> i wouldnt really worry, if your doing everything right it should grow itself out.


Yep, I think so too. Correct the pH to 5.8, get the watering right and all should resolve.


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## Chumlie (Sep 3, 2008)

No leaves or debre yet there all about 5" to 6" tall(is that good or bad for 3 weeks to a month?) But when you say spray everthing does that mean the top of the system and the clay pelets. 

But what about hearing that thrips only go after soil plants?
Yet that plant was the only one that had signs of thrips. I haven't seen them near the system yet, plus I have a yellow sticky stake laying on top of the system.

Do you have any thoughts on the sicky pads from the local garden shop. Keep in mind please that there is no hydro shop within 200miles from me....I thought about opening my on shop.

Last ?, when you top of the res using regular water every other day what is you method to get the ph down. I want 5.8 I check the res its 6.7 by the next day so what do I want my topping water to be?

Thanks for the info fella!


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## unity (Sep 3, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> No leaves or debre yet there all about 5" to 6" tall(is that good or bad for 3 weeks to a month?) But when you say spray everthing does that mean the top of the system and the clay pelets.
> 
> But what about hearing that thrips only go after soil plants?
> Yet that plant was the only one that had signs of thrips. I haven't seen them near the system yet, plus I have a yellow sticky stake laying on top of the system.
> ...


I'm not Al, but I know for sure that adult thribes hang out in the root zone. They are fast little fuckers and rather run then fly if they can, but they will fly off as well. In soil they put in sand on the top 2 inches. I used something with Spinosad in it in combination with blue sticky traps to monitor re-occurence. If it is a bad infestation you may need to treat the medium as well, if not, 2 folia applications 5 days apart got them in my situation. Good luck, I'm sure Al will chime in once he gets caught up


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## Chumlie (Sep 3, 2008)

No thats the thing haven't seen one yet just signs of one on a plant that i through away last night, but other than that haven't seen one.


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## unity (Sep 3, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> No thats the thing haven't seen one yet just signs of one on a plant that i through away last night, but other than that haven't seen one.


you can just monitor with the blue sticky traps, and tread once you know for sure. Good luck!


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## unity (Sep 3, 2008)

Al, I was wondering if I 'feel' you correctly on this: I'm running a chiller right now at about 70 degrees drain to waste. From what I'm reading here, correct me if I'm wrong, with the addition of h2o2 at your prescribed rate (35% @1.7ml every 3-4 days) I could turn that chiller off. Average temps with chiller off would be 74-76, but sometimes as high as 78/79. What do you think?


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## Jeebus (Sep 3, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Your best bet is to take some clones off the vegging plants, get them to set root and then flower them to determine sex. If you're going to do that, you may as well SoG. SCRoG takes time vegging the plants to be flowered and fiddling about tying branches to the screen. Why bother? Once you have sexed mums, just start taking cuttings and flowering them as soon as they set root. Grow as many as 4 per sq ft.


Hah, well proposing SOG just brings up more questions. I had originally planned on SOG before I was seduced by the lower plant requirement of SCRoG. I had planned to go with SCRoG because I wanted to stay under the Medical MJ limit for the state. However I don't have a problem with doing a couple of SoG in order to pick out the best genetics. I assume you suggest germing the entire batch of seeds, make all the fems mothers, and then choose the best mothers from their first harvest?

Questions
1) My Mother Chamber isn't finished yet, and is 18inW x 21inD x 36inH, it can be expanded to be 52 inches high. How many mothers would you expect me to be able to fit in there? Also, since it is a small little room, what lighting would you suggest?

2) I know it varies with strain, ph, etc. but at what age/height/node count would you recommend it being safe to clone for sexing?

3) With SOG, how much vertical room would I expect the plants to take. Or alternately, how close could I get a 400W hps in cooltube to my plants in a very well ventilated room. Is it the light intensity itself that burns them or just the heat? My concern is because I built the cabinet with scrog measurements in mind. It is 49 inches tall from top to bottom. 

4) Since I just have one flowering area and am unable to do the 2 week perpetual, is there really an advantage to SOG over SCRoG other than not having to deal with the screen? The reason I ask is because if it takes the same flowering time regardless, then it really just becomes a yield vs yield decision once I have tried both. Unless there is an advantage that I am not seeing.

Thanks for all of the help, it is good to have someone step up and be there for the newbs.


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## Kludge (Sep 3, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Adding CFL to HID lighting is like putting a model airplane engine on the nose of your 747 to help out the jet engines. Don't bother.


First sir I would like to thank you for all your amazing help, thanks!

Now on to business: I think your statement should be qualified. With a really small HID light the CFL's can be more like rocket assists on a C-130. They won't make the plane fly but they sure do help it take off.

I use a 400W HPS and a few CFL's targeted at lower growth and it has made a HUGE difference. Instead of all the growth at the top I have a nice full bush. (insert mom joke here)

Anyway thank you so much for all the help you've given everyone over the years. You are a true asset to these boards.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> when you say spray everthing does that mean the top of the system and the clay pelets.


 Spray all surfaces.



> But what about hearing that thrips only go after soil plants?


 Bit silly. Thrips are leaf sap suckers, they don't care about your medium.



> Yet that plant was the only one that had signs of thrips.


 Happens. 



> Do you have any thoughts on the sicky pads from the local garden shop.


 Thrips are attracted to blue objects, get some blue sticky card traps. 



> I want 5.8 I check the res its 6.7 by the next day so what do I want my topping water to be?


 Tapwater is usually about 7.5-8.5. Naturally, it will raise the pH of your 5.8 tank of sauce. Add tapwater to the nute tank, correct pH afterward. Don't correct pH of tapwater before adding it to the tank. 



Chumlie said:


> No thats the thing haven't seen one yet just signs of one on a plant that i through away last night, but other than that haven't seen one.


 They're REALLY small and hard to spot! You may need a magnifier. You'll see the silvery patches on leaf tops first before you see any thrips. Getting rid of a single affected plant is a good idea but the thrips are probably on the others as well, you just haven't seen them yet.



unity said:


> I could turn that chiller off. Average temps with chiller off would be 74-76, but sometimes as high as 78/79. What do you think?


 You probably could shut off the chiller, but if you have it, use it. 



Jeebus said:


> Hah, well proposing SOG just brings up more questions. I had originally planned on SOG before I was seduced by the lower plant requirement of SCRoG. I had planned to go with SCRoG because I wanted to stay under the Medical MJ limit for the state.


 If you have a strict plant count limit, SoG probably isn't for you. However, if you're growing only for your own use and can keep a secret, your chances of getting nicked are pretty low. 



> I assume you suggest germing the entire batch of seeds, make all the fems mothers, and then choose the best mothers from their first harvest?


 yep!



> Questions
> 1) My Mother Chamber isn't finished yet, and is 18inW x 21inD x 36inH, it can be expanded to be 52 inches high. How many mothers would you expect me to be able to fit in there? Also, since it is a small little room, what lighting would you suggest?


 6-8 mums would fit in there. Do make it taller. A 250HPS will raise mums fine. If you don't need a lot of cuttings nor very often you could veg with fluoros. Downside is that you don't get stems as thick as HPS or MH will produce. 



> 2) I know it varies with strain, ph, etc. but at what age/height/node count would you recommend it being safe to clone for sexing?


 You can sex the plant after it has come to sexual maturity, about 6-8 weeks vegging from seed. When preflowers appear at the nodes, you can sex the plant. 

3) With SOG, how much vertical room would I expect the plants to take.

SoG plants finish up at about 800mm-1m tall. My flowering area is 2100mm from floor to ceiling. Takes pretty much all that space for the flood system, plants, lights and clearance from lamp to leaf. 



> Or alternately, how close could I get a 400W hps in cooltube to my plants in a very well ventilated room. Is it the light intensity itself that burns them or just the heat?


 A 400 in a cooltube could be about 150mm min from the leaves. The plants cope pretty well with intensity, after all, once hardened, they can handle sunlight.



> My concern is because I built the cabinet with scrog measurements in mind. It is 49 inches tall from top to bottom.


 Would concern me too. 49" is 1249mm



> 4) Since I just have one flowering area and am unable to do the 2 week perpetual,


 All you need for perpetual is a flowering area which uses most of your floorspace, a small area for mums and a clonebox.



> is there really an advantage to SOG over SCRoG other than not having to deal with the screen? The reason I ask is because if it takes the same flowering time regardless, then it really just becomes a yield vs yield decision once I have tried both. Unless there is an advantage that I am not seeing.


 SCRoG requires plants are vegged for a week or so before flowering, Zero veg time for plants to be flowered in SoG, so it's 1-2 wks faster off the bat. Any method will need 8 wks to flower a plant. 



Kludge said:


> First sir I would like to thank you for all your amazing help, thanks!
> 
> Now on to business: I think your statement should be qualified. With a really small HID light the CFL's can be more like rocket assists on a C-130. They won't make the plane fly but they sure do help it take off.


Disagree, not a good analogy for this scenario. If a CFL was like a R/JATO bottle, it would produce an amt of light energy (for a brief period) which would be a significant proportion of (or more than) the HPS output- and they DON'T. Even a small HPS produces many, many times the intensity of even the very largest CFL. CFLs added to HPS is like a fart helping a hurricane flatten your town. Of course, in that analogy, we ARE discounting the notion that you may have had some bad Mexican food before the eye makes landfall... 

Adding CFLs to HPS really is like adding a model airplane engine to your 747. Don't waste your time. If you are pruning for SoG, the plants are tailored to suit the light pattern from an overhead HPS and any side or lower fill lighting is simply extraneous.



> I use a 400W HPS and a few CFL's targeted at lower growth and it has made a HUGE difference. Instead of all the growth at the top I have a nice full bush. (insert mom joke here)


Grow SoG pruned plants and you won't have any lower branches to dick around with. Small lower branches produce poorly, make buds that are hardly worth your time to manicure and don't do much other than block air circ around your plants. 



> Anyway thank you so much for all the help you've given everyone over the years. You are a true asset to these boards.


You're welcome.


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## Chumlie (Sep 3, 2008)

I forgot to ask you what can I use around the house to use instead of ph down?

Thanks again


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> I forgot to ask you what can I use around the house to use instead of ph down?


Nothing. You need proper pHDown sauce, usually a phosphoric acid solution- and very cheap, a few bucks for a litre. There's no good reason to use wonky substitutes, other than to avoid a trip to the shop... and once you encounter the problems caused by improper substitutes, you'll wish you'd just gone to the hydro shop.

ESPECIALLY- don't use vinegar or baking soda to adjust pH. Get the right stuff or don't bother. Substitutes *will* cause problems. 

Please don't come to me later asking to help solve problems that have been caused by using bodgy substitutes, I'll just point you back to this comment.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

Folks, I've _*got*_ to stay off the board and get work done in my own op. I will be back in a couple of days and will catch up.


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## Hydrochronic (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi AL . B hope all is well with your op! I'm sure it is superb! I just had a quick question for ya. Should i leave my humdity dome lid on for my seedling till it developes some leaves? of cours keep the humidity low and allow some air in their, just wondering what your thoughts are on this? Thanks AL.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

Yep, cover on, vents open, if it starts forming a lot of condensation, prop it open with something about an inch all around. High RH doesn't help cloning as much as steady 30C air and rootzone temps. Humidomes are much more useful for stabilising temp than RH. They should be called thermidomes. 

Soon as they have a pair of seed leaves going, take the cover off but keep them on a heat mat until they have a few pair of 'true' leaves and a nice spray of roots out of the bottom of their cubes.


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## grandpabear3 (Sep 3, 2008)

hey, aren't you supposed to be working?

well since your fuctin' off......you seem to know more than a usefull amount about maaaany subjects, so here is a question that is near and dear to my heart.

my father has alpha one antitrypsin defficiency....a lung disorder that basically sapps out the chemical in your body responsible for the elasticity in your lung tissue.
anyway he's one of those poor souls who will probably die on the waiting list.
however...i have the money to take him overseas beyond the reach of the fuckin FDA and basically ( however immoral ) buy a lung...i know this is done and dont know/ can't find info or where to look on the subject...google just spits out sites with info 'bout the disease and so forth.

i know this is a slap in the face to the fun we've had on your thread...i was just hoping you might have insight.

sincerely, thank you


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## Jeebus (Sep 3, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 6-8 mums would fit in there. Do make it taller. A 250HPS will raise mums fine. If you don't need a lot of cuttings nor very often you could veg with fluoros. Downside is that you don't get stems as thick as HPS or MH will produce.


Wow that is a lot more than I expected you to say. I figured with such a small footprint there wouldn't be enough room for the outward growth of so many. 




> You can sex the plant after it has come to sexual maturity, about 6-8 weeks vegging from seed. When preflowers appear at the nodes, you can sex the plant.


That's perfect, so in my case the only concern would be that their vertical height didn't exceed my maximum. Since I planned for scrog, I will most likely stick to scrog afterall, except the first go round will be from seed and I will need them to grow to preflower stage before I can move/remove them accordingly. I have about 28-30inches of grow room. Again I know it varies, but will that be enough room for them to get to preflower stage? If not are there alternatives (topping or otherwise) that won't affect their sexual maturity but allow me to grow them in that grow area?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> hey, aren't you supposed to be working?


I have been working since 4.30am, 11.45am now, had stopped for a coffee earlier, now stopped for another! 



> my father has alpha one antitrypsin defficiency....a lung disorder that basically sapps out the chemical in your body responsible for the elasticity in your lung tissue.
> anyway he's one of those poor souls who will probably die on the waiting list.


oh, no... I'm so sorry to hear it. 

I'm sorrier that I can't offer even one whipstitch of information for you. 

I hope he's as well as he can be.



Jeebus said:


> Wow that is a lot more than I expected you to say. I figured with such a small footprint there wouldn't be enough room for the outward growth of so many.


You're looking to go upward, not outward. 





Takes a very small footprint, not much bigger than the pot. This tray is about 300mm wide (maybe)



> will that be enough room for them to get to preflower stage?


Sure. If they get too big, prune 'em back!


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## grandpabear3 (Sep 3, 2008)

Quote:
my father has alpha one antitrypsin defficiency....a lung disorder that basically sapps out the chemical in your body responsible for the elasticity in your lung tissue.
anyway he's one of those poor souls who will probably die on the waiting list. 
oh, no... I'm so sorry to hear it. 

I'm sorrier that I can't offer even one whipstitch of information for you. 

I hope he's as well as he can be.

thanks for the kind words al...no worries he's as cantankerous as ever and i feel i have plenty of time to solve this....i digress.

i have been meaning to ask you if you think www.hygrozyme.com falls under the magic sauce catagory.
it's compatible with h2o2 and seems like it would be beneficial.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> i have been meaning to ask you if you think www.hygrozyme.com falls under the magic sauce catagory.
> it's compatible with h2o2 and seems like it would be beneficial.


You gotta start worrying when a maker promotes a "secret [...] formula" as a selling point. That's actually a showstopper for me. 

If they at least disclosed what the active ingredient is, you could do some research for some peer-reviewed science from the botany/horticulture college of a reputable university which indicates what the benefits and hazards are. 

A good test of magic saucery is the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) associated with the product. This will contain basic data and toxicological info. If there's no MSDS available, you can make a reasoned guess that what's in the sauce isn't much more hazardous (or perhaps efficacious) than tapwater. 

Remember Colgate toothpaste with MFP? We were supposed to be realllly impressed with MFP, whatever the fuck it was. I always thought it meant 'mostly fuckin' *profit*!'


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## \x0D (Sep 3, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> A good test of magic saucery is the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) associated with the product. This will contain basic data and toxicological info. If there's no MSDS available, you can make a reasoned guess that what's in the sauce isn't much more hazardous (or perhaps efficacious) than tapwater.


You got me curious!

http://www.bwgs.com/sendfile.asp?id={1A1781AB-73B0-4B94-98E1-1477D650536B}

Heres the MSDS for it..

-\x0D


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

Thanks for the linkage.  

From the MSDS:



> If ingested may cause Laxative reaction. (diarrhea)


hahahhahaha!! they knew I was comin' and that magic sauces give me the shits. 

Not much info in that MSDS, I'm afraid. No chemical names we could run off & search up.

On the basis of the info available to me, I'm not tempted to try it.


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## \x0D (Sep 3, 2008)

well, being happily baked, i kept digging.. 

Turns out Hygrozyme is made by Sipco Industries (http://www.sipcobio.com/index.html), a biochemistry company whose main line seems to be medical enzymatic cleaners .

They specifically mentioned gear like endoscopes on their list of items that their cleaners are used on. 
I dont know if you have ever seen an endoscope ( hopefully you wont) but that looks like one tough bastard to clean!

My guess is they figured out that the excess product they were dumping out in the back lot was growing greener foilage, and exploited the market.

"Secret Formula" is on the label probably because "Medical Detergent" looks like ass on the shelf at the hydro store...

On the flip side, I have used it, it didnt kill anything.
However not having enough grows under my belt to try without it, I cant testify as to its effectiveness .

I can, however testify as to the price of this stuff- Ouch!!

-\x0D


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## grandpabear3 (Sep 3, 2008)

ya i cringed when i seen the price....but the hydro nahtzee just will not leave me alone about it and i havent read anything bad about it yet.
....idk....my h2o2 does an awesome job for cleaning....

i think i'll stick with tried and true methods fuct style


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## Chumlie (Sep 3, 2008)

You said you were at work, but I hope you can answer this question that will settle them all for awhile. Will this work for Ph down?
pH Decreaser  2 Lbs.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

\x0D said:


> well, being happily baked, i kept digging..


 As you should! 



> Turns out Hygrozyme is made by Sipco Industries (Sipco Industries: a complete line of speciality medical detergents.), a biochemistry company whose main line seems to be medical enzymatic cleaners .


 well spotted!



> They specifically mentioned gear like endoscopes on their list of items that their cleaners are used on.
> I dont know if you have ever seen an endoscope ( hopefully you wont) but that looks like one tough bastard to clean!


 Well, when you consider where they put those things, yeah... 



> My guess is they figured out that the excess product they were dumping out in the back lot was growing greener foilage, and exploited the market.


 I hope that was the case!



> "Secret Formula" is on the label probably because "Medical Detergent" looks like ass on the shelf at the hydro store...


 So would 'cleaner for stuff you put in ass' 


> On the flip side, I have used it, it didnt kill anything.
> However not having enough grows under my belt to try without it, I cant testify as to its effectiveness .


 Not killing anything is good...



> I can, however testify as to the price of this stuff- Ouch!!


 ...but the price for something that doesn't kill stuff is indeed a bit stiff. 

The way I get it, Hygrozyme is supposed to break down dead root matter. H2O2 does that in spades.



bugsrnme said:


> ....idk....my h2o2 does an awesome job for cleaning....
> 
> i think i'll stick with tried and true methods fuct style


Well, I didn't invent H2O2 nor was the first to use it in hydro system, so I'm not terribly sure it's 'my' style.  The stuff just does the job of sterilising and breaking down dead organic matter very well, with the bonus of giving off O2 into the rootmass.



Chumlie said:


> You said you were at work, but I hope you can answer this question that will settle them all for awhile. Will this work for Ph down?
> pH Decreaser  2 Lbs.


I copied their package image and enlarged it in Photoshop. This stuff is 95% sodium bisulfate. The sodium will kill your plants! 

Good for the hot tub, might kill weeds in your footpath, too... not something you want in your hydro system. 

Can't you just go to a hydro shop and get the right stuff?


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## grandpabear3 (Sep 3, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *bugsrnme*  
_....idk....my h2o2 does an awesome job for cleaning....

i think i'll stick with tried and true methods fuct style_

Well, I didn't invent H2O2 nor was the first to use it in hydro system, so I'm not terribly sure it's 'my' style.  The stuff just does the job of sterilising and breaking down dead organic matter very well, with the bonus of giving off O2 into the rootmass.



just givin' the ol' sniffer a good work out kiss-assdid i get everything in there good an clean fer ya?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

> did i get everything in there good an clean fer ya?


oh, ferufxsake. 
You know, I reaaaaaaaaaaaallllly hate this 'smiley':


----------



## grandpabear3 (Sep 3, 2008)

i will say that the recipient in the smiley does look rather menacing...almost prison rape-worthy


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

yeah, if he was an army sgt, he'd be shot by his own troops. 

I'm SO not that. I really cringe with this whole guru trip ppl lay on me. I can do some stuff but I'm not any kind of Einstein nor do I need my ego massaged.


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## sparkafire (Sep 3, 2008)

just givin' the ol' sniffer a good work out kiss-assdid i get everything in there good an clean fer ya?



Al B. Fuct said:


> oh, ferufxsake.
> You know, I reaaaaaaaaaaaallllly hate this 'smiley': kiss-ass


OH MY GOD!!!!! ROFL !!!!! That was funny very unexpected. 

+ rep for you bugs


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## grandpabear3 (Sep 3, 2008)

well ....smart and humble....nope nothing there at all redeeming or noteworthy....your right. you suck



totally kidding...i love you and you can still have my wife and sister....( went waaaay back for that post, you prolly don't member! )


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## sparkafire (Sep 3, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> yeah, if he was an army sgt, he'd be shot by his own troops.
> 
> I'm SO not that. I really cringe with this whole guru trip ppl lay on me. I can do some stuff but I'm not any kind of Einstein nor do I need my ego massaged.


Yea ABF i can understand how that would make you feel uncomfortable BUT there are people like myself that owe a great deal to you JUST because you took the time out of your day to respond to questions. That is a big deal my friend!! You are kinda like the big brother and we are all just little FUCT's following you around thinking your the cat meow!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> well ....smart and humble....nope nothing there at all redeeming or noteworthy....your right. you suck


I DO suck! I suck like Primus! 


> totally kidding...i love you and you can still have my wife and sister....( went waaaay back for that post, you prolly don't member! )


Yeah, I do remember, was kinda hoping that had sorta evaporated or got lost in a disk crash or something...

Just curious, the wife and sis... umm.... they any good at manicuring buds? digging post holes and mixing concrete? running the rotohoe in the veggie patch? 

Why do I ask, you say?

Cos all that shit ain't getting done while I'm dorking around on here!


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## asyouarei (Sep 3, 2008)

hello, i have a plant problem and was directed by long dangly bits to ask for your opinion on whats wrong with my plants. its under plant problems called:*yellow and curling and maybe nute burn??/pics

thanks for your time 
*


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## grandpabear3 (Sep 3, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I DO suck! I suck like Primus!
> 
> 
> Yeah, I do remember, was kinda hoping that had sorta evaporated or got lost in a disk crash or something...
> ...


 
love the primus reference....you really that flexible....on second thought you might do dome acrobatic shit in bed then ....i'm single and have lost my garden slave. and yes they are from oklahoma and raised/worked on a farm.

but seriously......get to work


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## grandpabear3 (Sep 3, 2008)

oops...funs over, doodie calls


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

sparkafire said:


> Yea ABF i can understand how that would make you feel uncomfortable BUT there are people like myself that owe a great deal to you JUST because you took the time out of your day to respond to questions. That is a big deal my friend!! You are kinda like the big brother and we are all just little FUCT's following you around thinking your the cat meow!!





Thanks. 

It's all chain reaction karma to me. I'm in it to subvert bad laws and self-serving governments. I help you learn, you wire it up & dial it in, then you teach a couple more... ain't no way they can jail us all. Overthrowing by overgrowing, social change from the user-level on up. 

now... coffee break's over, see ya.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

asyouarei said:


> hello, i have a plant problem and was directed by long dangly bits to ask for your opinion on whats wrong with my plants. its under plant problems called:*yellow and curling and maybe nute burn??/pics
> 
> thanks for your time
> *


got a link?


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## grandpabear3 (Sep 3, 2008)

you know...you just cant stop canyou?...lmao

hello my name is al......i'm a postaholic


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2008)

It's not so much that- I'm just wired to the gills. I have 5 computers on my home LAN, upstairs, downstairs, in the kitchen, on the verandah and yes- there is one just outside the grow room. I get notified via SMS when emails from RIU come in. I pretty much just stand up & turn around and there's a networked PC handy.


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## Jeebus (Sep 3, 2008)

Other than being wicked clean, are there any preventative measures or products you suggest using when it comes to pests? Every now and then there seem to be a few gnats flying around here and there and I could just see them loving my hydro setup.

Also, I am having difficulties finding anything more than drug store h2o2. I found a couple online sites but they didn't look right to me. Any online suggestions? or perhaps anyone out there in the states have a supplier?


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## Phinxter (Sep 4, 2008)

Al . i know its not a hydro question but i have posted it twice and can get no answer and hoped you could help ...
i just bought an agrostar 1000 watt hps ballast to replace my cheap growbright ballast.
the new agrostar seems to be twice as loiud as the cheap one and its hot ... hot enough i have it reasting on concrete blocks because im afraid its going to start a fire ... question is .
is this normal for the 1000 watt ballast to run so hot or might i have a defective unit ?


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## firsttimegroww (Sep 4, 2008)

hi albf
I have a question for you, I use RO water at 0 ppm then i add nutes to get about 800ppm.
You say tap water is fine, and my tap water is about 300-350ppm, Do i add 800ppm amoutn of nutes to get 1100-1150ppm to get the same as before? Or do i still add enough just to reach 800ppm. Thanks!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2008)

Jeebus said:


> Other than being wicked clean, are there any preventative measures or products you suggest using when it comes to pests? Every now and then there seem to be a few gnats flying around here and there and I could just see them loving my hydro setup.


Gnats are bloody everywhere. You'll almost always have a few. Use yellow sticky card traps. That'll trap most adults before they can lay eggs, but if things get really bad, where plants are affected (root probs), find some Gnatrol. Keep them hungry by killing the fungus they eat with H2O2. 



> Any online suggestions? or perhaps anyone out there in the states have a supplier?


Google and ye shall find. Lots of results, filter it by your town name (unles you live in Bumfuckegypt, of course), you'll find it.


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## asyouarei (Sep 4, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> got a link?


https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/104662-yellow-curling-maybe-nute-burn.html

heres some additional info i dont have ph run off, humidity, or temperature.sorrryy:

recently trasfered plant from mg organic 10-5-5 to jiffers seedling starter mix
distilled water ph of 7.5
soil ph 7
no nutes at this time
lights 2 120 watt floro cfl spirals for capopy
2 80 watt floro cfl spiral for sides (18-6)
fan for circulation
i water once every three days with no runoff


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2008)

Phinxter said:


> is this normal for the 1000 watt ballast to run so hot or might i have a defective unit ?


Should run pretty hot (case temp might be 60-70C), but should be dead silent. If it buzzes, you got a shit ballast. The bzzzzzzzzzz noise is caused by a poor quality or defective inductor with loose or insufficiently secured iron laminations. Loose laminations will cause inefficient running and hotter than normal operation, too. 

Return it, make sure they are all not like that before accepting a replacement. 



firsttimegroww said:


> hi albf
> I have a question for you, I use RO water at 0 ppm then i add nutes to get about 800ppm.
> You say tap water is fine, and my tap water is about 300-350ppm, Do i add 800ppm amoutn of nutes to get 1100-1150ppm to get the same as before? Or do i still add enough just to reach 800ppm. Thanks!


As long as the out of the tap EC is being caused by Mg & Ca and not NaCl salinity, it's fine to use. The plants will use the Mg & Ca as nutrients but won't want much NaCl (150ppm or 150mg/L max sodium). Check your water utility's website for water analysis data. If your tapwater is 300 from Ca & Mg and you want 1100, mix for 1400.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2008)

asyouarei said:


> soil ph 7


ah, soil. 

Sorry, I'm just not a soil guy. Won't be able to help you much.

Purpling stem (P def), N deficient leaves... could be root probs, overwatering, pH error. The pH requirements for soil are different to hydro so I can't get you any closer than that, sorry.

Ask potroast.


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## asyouarei (Sep 4, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> ah, soil.
> 
> Sorry, I'm just not a soil guy. Won't be able to help you much.
> 
> ...


thanks yeah both have really purply stems but one is fine while the other is not...  thanks


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2008)

Yep, the plant has a couple of deficiencies, can be caused by actual absence of nutes but more often is caused by root damage from disease, overwatering is a good way to bring on root disease. A pH error can lock out certain nutrients. The purpling stem is a worry.

See if you can flag down potroast, this is his forte.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2008)

So, I was getting some high-quality data about lighting from a w33d b4R0n in some other thread and I'm told pointedly it's all about GRAMS PER WATT (all caps apparently necessary to make him righter ) and how HPS lighting is good doorstop material...  

I'd never mathed out what my op does in those terms, didn't know what a 'good' g/W figure might be... so I crunched the numbers. 


Al B. Fuct said:


> OK, I light each pair of my 900x900mm trays with a 1000. I only harvest 1 tray at a time, every 2 weeks. Each tray yields 23-28.75oz (653.2-816.5g), so we'll double that to get a per-lamp yield, 1306.4-1633g per 1000HPS, or 1.306-1.633g/W. How'm I doing?


Apparently... pretty friggin' well.



> actually 1 gram per watt is what pro growers get. (Meaning per watt of light)


hmm, ok. Any consensus on that 1g/W figure being 'great'?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2008)

bugsrnme sez in a +rep msg:



> not that you need it...thanks, your +rep sent my points from 400sumthin to 600 sumthin....daaang yer powerfull,lol...bugsrnme


I don't play the rep thing much, but that seems a lot. I hit Stoney McDoper with some +R (the only one he's ever gotten ). He says it was worth 28 points. 

If I haven't +r'd you recently, let me know. I'll pop you some and you can chime in with how much it was worth. I'm not sure there's much rhyme or reason to it.


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## Chumlie (Sep 4, 2008)

I wish I could just go to the hydroshop but its at least 200 miles away. I can order some but it may be awhile before I get it. So how long do you think my plants can survive in akelline water?


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## VictorVIcious (Sep 4, 2008)

Hey Al, couple of quick things, I have this batwing reflector project going on, I was wondering if you know what 'spread' of your is your is? I am using a 36" by 24" piece of 020ga. I used standard 'S' strips at the edges and bent them 90d, drilled thru and will install a cross bar to maintain the 'Spread' of the reflector. 
Do you know the approximate date you posted your cool tube installation, looked around for about 30 pages, didn't find it. Any help you can give is appreciated. VV


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> So how long do you think my plants can survive in akelline water?


Long enough to become nutrient deficient from pH lockout, I suppose, or at least one would hope they go that long...



VictorVIcious said:


> Hey Al, couple of quick things, I have this batwing reflector project going on, I was wondering if you know what 'spread' of your is your is? I am using a 36" by 24" piece of 020ga. I used standard 'S' strips at the edges and bent them 90d, drilled thru and will install a cross bar to maintain the 'Spread' of the reflector.


Nice work, VV.  Your workshop is soooooooo much better organised than mine!

By 'spread', what measurement are you talking about? How much light spread there is on the lighted surface below? The distance between the far ends of the batwing?



> Do you know the approximate date you posted your cool tube installation, looked around for about 30 pages, didn't find it. Any help you can give is appreciated. VV


Yeah, I know, the search function in this forum softwe doesn't really work that well. 

Once I'm surer of what measurement you want, I'll just whip out the tape measure and have a look.


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## VictorVIcious (Sep 4, 2008)

The distance between the far end of the batwings, I thought about that and decided you would already know I plan on covering (2) 3' sq tables. VV


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## Chumlie (Sep 4, 2008)

hopefully thay can last a week to week and half, ok I said I was not going to have any more questions, but you and I know that was a lie and I'm appalogize for that. 

One of my plants looks fine except for a little learning process it shows, but anyways the second set of leaves down from the newbies are very dry and kinda wrinkle.
This is vague, but with out pics would you say its nute burn are deficiency?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> The distance between the far end of the batwings, I thought about that and decided you would already know I plan on covering (2) 3' sq tables. VV


OK, looks like this:

 

The ref is made from 2 panels of 1mm aluminium sheet, 610mm x 700mm wide. The panels are joined on the 700mm axis and overlap about 30mm. 

The spread is adjustable with small stainless cables against the spring tension of the alu sheet from 900-1000mm. The arc of the parabolas is about 50mm from flat as shown. 

Is that enough info? If not, please feel free to ask about anything else.



Chumlie said:


> One of my plants looks fine except for a little learning process it shows, but anyways the second set of leaves down from the newbies are very dry and kinda wrinkle.
> This is vague, but with out pics would you say its nute burn are deficiency?


got pix?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> If I haven't +r'd you recently, let me know. I'll pop you some and you can chime in with how much it was worth. I'm not sure there's much rhyme or reason to it.


I've gotten some +r's with no messages. The board does not display the user who did the +r. If I don't know where it came from, I can't reciprocate.


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## Return of the Spork (Sep 4, 2008)

Pretty sure I have zero rep since I just registered. Been lurking a while and have definitely learned my share from this thread alone. Thanks.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2008)

Done, Sporky. 

Curiously, most +r I get is worth 0 points. Lots of brown blocks.


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## Return of the Spork (Sep 4, 2008)

Looks like we have a grand total of 28. A hefty amount considering I had zero a moment ago, yet I somehow expected more considering all those + blocks over there. Too bad they don't implement a shop/store where you can spend rep points on stupid/cool forum things.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2008)

Yep, Stoney McD had 0 when I +r'd him the other day, he got 28 too.

Interesting notion to make the accumulated points do something other than accumulate.


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## Chumlie (Sep 4, 2008)

Don't have pix but leaves are the same color as the rest just dry and are a little shriveled. Plus one of the leaves has a small brown lighting bolt coming from the point of the leave. The only thing I can do is draw you a picture


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## Chumlie (Sep 4, 2008)

Hey Al what kind of cloning solution do you use. I bought Clonex cuz I heard and seen almost everybody use it, but right on the label it says not for food crops. So which one am I soppose to get?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Don't have pix but leaves are the same color as the rest just dry and are a little shriveled. Plus one of the leaves has a small brown lighting bolt coming from the point of the leave. The only thing I can do is draw you a picture


Sorry, can't help you much without a photo. 



Chumlie said:


> Hey Al what kind of cloning solution do you use. I bought Clonex cuz I heard and seen almost everybody use it, but right on the label it says not for food crops. So which one am I soppose to get?


I don't like rooting gels for a few reasons. They wash off after a few waterings. Gels can also support pathogen growth in between uses. If you must use gels, never dip the stem in the main container. Put some in an old bottlecap and discard any excess. If you have dipped in the main container, discard it after one use. Keep rooting gel in the fridge between uses. 

Powder type rooting aids have the same active ingredient (butyric acid) but the powder forms a paste which stays put with all but the most enthusiastic watering. 

I don't know what human health hazard a few mg of butyric acid used early in plant formation is supposed to present, but it would be very small.


----------



## Chumlie (Sep 4, 2008)

Well that sucks because I bought a cheap version awhile ago at the garden center(powder), but took it back cuz it said the same dame thing. So my dumbass went an ordered this expensive shit thinking it was ment for our kind of clones, and it says the same MF shit. 

Can a sativa get stress from not having room to grow but wanting too? (just maybe a stupid secondtime grower question)


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> ordered this expensive shit thinking it was ment for our kind of clones, and it says the same MF shit.


Sorry about that...



> Can a sativa get stress from not having room to grow but wanting too? (just maybe a stupid secondtime grower question)


Could you be more specific? 

If the pot is too small for a vigorous plant, it can become rootbound. Roots are packed too tightly together to allow good aeration and movement of nute soln through the roots.


----------



## Old in the Way (Sep 4, 2008)

Hello Al B.,

Allow me to introduce myself-I am Old, last name Way. 
After much debate I have decided to engage in public discussion (or go online or communicate electronically in any way about anything) regarding my new op. First let me join the masses in thanking you for your active involvement here and the guidance you have provided for the other members here. Now I have what is likely to be the start of many questions for you.

It took three months to get me here but:
I spent weeks pouring over the information here in order to use it in my planning and as part of my guide. Then spent weeks building out 2 13'x13' rooms- Long story short i have modeled my op after yours with the exception of the flower room where i am using 3 top-drip res/tray combos (3.5m. trays/265liter res-each serviced with 1kw HPS on 2 meter light rails, air cooled and glass enclosed reflectors, all thermo/humi/vent equipment automated) to harvest 8-10wk strains at a rate of 3.5m.sq. every 19-22 days in a sog-about 72 plants. My nutrient resevoirs in the flower room are formulated Day1-18, Day19-40, Day 41 (right about 6wks)-finish.

My first question is....That should work, right? Rather than the 4 resevoir set-up for wks 1-2, 3-4. 5-6, etc

Second Question-Is it normal for seed grown plants to stretch a fair bit 7-8cm prior to stopping and putting out true sets of leaves. 

I know clones grow laterally right from the grow medium but i expected my seedlings to stay much more compact. I am starting with good genetics from reptutable sources and just finished germinating my first batch of 48 plants 5 days ago (47 germinated-I will allow all to preflower then destroy all males and turn about half the females into mums to keep up with the 72 clones I need every 19 days and run the rest through in the flower room to sample the genetics before the sog harvests are pepetuated). 

I should let you know seeds were germinated directly from the starter plugs (instead of paper towel-to plug-could that be the difference?)and have started their lives under under a 1kw MH in the veg room. Light was started a meter above and moved down to optimal height over the course of 2 days. The room is kept at 24-25 degrees, humidity at 50-55%-again all automated environmental controls, and the nut solution is at 1.4EC or 700ppm for the first 6-7 days. I am using a quality grow formula at 45% strength and a 25% dose of fulvic acid and a drop of superthrive/4liters. Ph is maintained at 5.5-5.6 a light dose of hydroguard has also been added and i should probably mention while this is my first grow I come from an extensive backgound in ornamental horticulture and floriculture. I am looking forward to preflowers so i can start propagating. (Here I am using a 90 cell aeroponic cloning machine-Its all about enjoying the fruits of your labor not laboring over your fruit)

The seedlings have been growing true sets of leaves for 5 days now and many are starting third sets. (At this point there is no further stretching taking place and growth looks dense and healthy just hoping the initial stretch is not going to lead to excessive height. And again is this normal for seed grown or has there been a mistep? Either way is it going to be detremental in any way since most of the females are being grown into mums leaving only 16-18 +,- female bushes (trees maybe) to move to flower for our taste testing.

Thanks for the time to answer yet another nooby question. I will sleep better if i know where i went wrong or if it is the norm.

Sincerely,
Old in the Way


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 4, 2008)

OK. I can find lots of 35% H2O2. But it seems damn difficult...and pricey to get the 50% solution. Even from chemical supply places I found prices like $140.00 for 500ml of stabilized 50% H2O2 solution.

Any references to your vendor would be appreciated. Otherwise I will continue to use the 35% stuff that I am able to find.

Thanks!!!


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## Chumlie (Sep 4, 2008)

What I mean is if I do not raise my light each day to let it grow taller would this hurt it in any way? Its been touching my fluros for about 4 days, I was going to let the inernoid catch up.


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## visceraeyes (Sep 4, 2008)

Al, what are your thoughts on the Mr. Green youtube serious about the ebb & flow and drop system that he uses?

YouTube - How to Grow Green


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2008)

corral hollow kid said:


> OK. I can find lots of 35% H2O2. But it seems damn difficult...and pricey to get the 50% solution. Even from chemical supply places I found prices like $140.00 for 500ml of stabilized 50% H2O2 solution.


I get 25L of 50% for $125. You may not be inquiring about a large enough qty to get a decent price. In any event, you should avoid the stabilised type. 



> Any references to your vendor would be appreciated. Otherwise I will continue to use the 35% stuff that I am able to find.


I get it from Consolidated Chemical Co, but they are in Australia. 

35% is perfectly fine! Just use it at 1.7ml/L instead of 1ml/L.



Chumlie said:


> What I mean is if I do not raise my light each day to let it grow taller would this hurt it in any way? Its been touching my fluros for about 4 days, I was going to let the inernoid catch up.


OMFG, not THE *INERNOID*!! They're vicious, those inernoids!! Don't let it catch up!  hahahah

Do raise the lamp, she'll be right. 

If raised for a long time under fluoros, it may get leggy on you (if the inernoid doesn't get to it first! ). Get it under some HPS or MH lighting, depending on what you intend for this plant, fairly soon.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2008)

Old in the Way said:


> My first question is....That should work, right? Rather than the 4 resevoir set-up for wks 1-2, 3-4. 5-6, etc


yep, should be OK. It's good to have an independent tank to handle wk6-8 plants so you can dose them in wk 6 (only) with a P&K flowering additive. 



> Second Question-Is it normal for seed grown plants to stretch a fair bit 7-8cm prior to stopping and putting out true sets of leaves.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...


No, not terribly normal. I suspect your starter plugs might have been too wet. It's OK, they seem to have gotten through well enough that they are now more developed and able to remove enough water from their medium to have sufficient oxygenation for the roots. Things should pick up as per normal from here on out. I don't expect any stretch later on from this event. H2O2 is useful for promoting healthy roots in very young plants. 



> I am using a quality grow formula at 45% strength and a 25% dose of fulvic acid and a drop of superthrive/4liters.


What's fulvic acid supposed to accomplish? 

I've used superthrive before but couldn't discern any benefit which justifies the truly nutty price of the stuff. 



> Ph is maintained at 5.5-5.6


Too low, shoot for 5.8 +/- 0.1. You'll have lockout probs at 5.5.









> a light dose of hydroguard has also been added


What's in Hydroguard? Is that H2O2? I don't know these things by their brand names. 

I don't see H2O2 among your list. You should be applying 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days to keep the grow and nutes free of pathogens. 

All sounds well researched and very ambitious. Hope you go well, ask anytime if things are not happening for you.


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## Old in the Way (Sep 4, 2008)

OOOOHHH YAAAA...(i'm such a stoner)
One more question...for now
Yeild???
Always the million dollar question. Based on your figures of 23-28oz/every 2wks off a 4x4 tray under a shared 1kw HPS I have to figure 3-3.5lbs every 19-20 days on a 8x4 tray under a dedicated 1kw HPS on a light rail-was shooting for 11-12lbs/every 2 months. Does that seem possible?? Again working with the assumption that i either know what i am doing or have studied the science to the point of being able to apply it.

Thanks again.


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## Old in the Way (Sep 4, 2008)

The 3rd res is the 6wk-maturity resevoir so i should be able to accomplish the final feeding as suggested.

"Fulvic acid is a biologically active acid that occurs naturally in rich soils from the action of beneficial microbes. Contains 70+ trace elements and minerals in natural form. Enhances nut uptake, promotes growth, increases disease resistance." 

Seems like a little mother nature love in an otherwise synthetic environment. Alot like a super thrive product. Highly recommended from the shop-not nearly as pricey.

Yes the hydroguard is a brand name h2o2 product from botanicare and has been added.

Overly wet plugs was likely the cause of initial stretching.
Good call! Sometimes you have to step back to see the simplest answers.
Thanks for the input.

Ambitious yes, but very managable.
I am sure you will be kept up on the ops performance if you don't mind dealing with the brunt of my queries.


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## Chumlie (Sep 4, 2008)

Al what I'm trying to do is get all mums, but I have heard that most newbies grow males most of the time. Yet I'm going to stay postive. I'm pretty sure that three of them are indicas and one's a sativa. The only reason I'm growing them under fluros is cuz my hps is for flowering area, and I wanted to seperated the sections; plus I wanted to save money on my electricity for more flower power


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## drgreenGMX (Sep 4, 2008)

ALB what do you think the reason is behind so many people flushing?
I see you feel its not needed and some other growers comments seem to back it up, but so many speak of thse chemy tasting buds etc... what do you think the reasons for these are? old wives tail?


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## Chumlie (Sep 4, 2008)

Im going to do flushing for now because I don't have PPm meter are tds meter, I've been trying to see if my Ph meter even works correct. Im going to stop flushing soon as I get one. 
I have lot of things on my wish list.
Sorry Al for taking up space.


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## \x0D (Sep 4, 2008)

Old in the Way said:


> Yes the hydroguard is a brand name h2o2 product from botanicare and has been added


 
Excerpt from Botanicare : Product Overview : Nutrients :

"HYDROGUARD&#8482; product composition: Bacillus subtilis, Paenibacillus polymxa, Bacillus circulans, and Bacillus amyloliquefaciens. The guaranteed analysis is:CFU/Gram 1.7E x10 6."

I doubt these guys are going to be swimming around in h202...

-\x0D


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## grandpabear3 (Sep 4, 2008)

here is my hps that i blew due to hot starting...the hydro guy was telling me about a soft start thingy....can i make one of these/do i need one?



here's a shot of my freshly ...end of the third week...s.o.g. pruned beauties ...16 of them staggered. i'm still workin out which mums the bees knees



wide shot of the flower room....big ones in day 24 of flower and the 2nd batch went in late due to cloner issues. you can see the carnage in the bottom of table 4.

i had to force myself to go back over them a second time to really take it off......it was painfull, but i'm over it. and i think i'll be happy when i see the results.

just an update for ya al.....all of it was thanks to your tutulage.


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## georgelopez (Sep 4, 2008)

sorry bugs never heard of soft start. Ive been lucky with bulbs i guess.


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 5, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> you should avoid the stabilised type.
> 
> 35% is perfectly fine! Just use it at 1.7ml/L instead of 1ml/L.


I will avoid the stabilized type. Thank you.

I was just told there is a stop sale on 35% H2O2 stuff in California right now. Who knows...soon it may not be available here in CA! Damn EPA.

I added a good air pump, some 4" disc stones, and a small fountain pump to keep the solution circulating in my reservoir. My water does not stink any more and it is crystal clear!!! Hopefully the plants will recover soon. (Ionic Grow nutes, H2O2, ec 1.4, pH 5.7 and holding!)

Do I need to keep the air and circulating pump on 24/7? or can I set it on a timer?

One more quick question...how often should I reapply the H2O2 to the reservoir?

Thanks again Al...you're a life saver!!!


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## fshields1 (Sep 5, 2008)

a while ago i asked a question about my clones that came from a mature plant that hadn't see any thing but 24/0, once i put the clones into 12/12 they went through the normal growth spurt but the blades of the leaves went from 7 down to 1 single blade.so far every thing looks ok, but you asked for some pics so here they are


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 5, 2008)

visceraeyes said:


> Al, what are your thoughts on the Mr. Green youtube serious about the ebb & flow and drop system that he uses?
> 
> YouTube - How to Grow Green


 The numbering of the vids on YT is a bit wonky, so I have only seen a couple and very out of sequence. 

 While this is one of the better cannabis growing vids, lots of good basics, I'm not overly fond of this grower's drip feeding of rockwool, particularly with seedlings in them. Seedlings should be hand watered until they have quite a lot of roots. Top wetting RW invariably creates a thick green slime of algae on the media tops. I thought he was going to flood them as he had flood trays. I bet he wished he'd rinsed the dust off his clay pellets before potting up with them. There'll be mud in his tray drain channels & rez. I think he allocates far too much space to a vegging area. If he had a 10ft wide space, he could have given only 1ft wide on the end to mums and use the rest for flowering trays. 

Like I said, what I've seen of the series is generally good stuff. I'd only change a few things here & there to make it a bit more efficient & productive.



Old in the Way said:


> OOOOHHH YAAAA...(i'm such a stoner)
> One more question...for now
> Yeild???


 Your first few crops won't be as good as your later ones. Be happy if you're getting .5z off each plant, around .5g/watt. Once you dial it in and get practised, it should come up to 1-1.25z/ea.



Old in the Way said:


> "Fulvic acid is a biologically active acid


 I've done some looking about and haven't found any good peer-reviewed botanical science on this one. It seems a bit magic saucey. 


> Yes the hydroguard is a brand name h2o2 product from botanicare and has been added.


 but wait...

\x0D sez... 



> Excerpt from Botanicare : Product Overview : Nutrients :
> 
> "HYDROGUARD&#8482; product composition: Bacillus subtilis, Paenibacillus polymxa, Bacillus circulans, and Bacillus amyloliquefaciens. The guaranteed analysis is:CFU/Gram 1.7E x10 6."
> 
> I doubt these guys are going to be swimming around in h202...


 And he's quite right. Hydroguard is an organic anti-pathogenic which employs competing, living microorganisms. It's not only not H2O2, H2O2 will instantly nuke whatever is in Hydroguard. Hydroguard might be a good antipathogen choice for organic nutes, but frankly, I have this firm belief in chemistry and only want ONE organism in my op- cannabis plants. Hydroguard also will not oxygenate roots.



> Overly wet plugs was likely the cause of initial stretching.
> Good call! Sometimes you have to step back to see the simplest answers.
> Thanks for the input.


 ah, good, hoping my growdar was still functioning. 


> Ambitious yes, but very managable.
> I am sure you will be kept up on the ops performance if you don't mind dealing with the brunt of my queries.


 cool, hope to see more. 



Chumlie said:


> Al what I'm trying to do is get all mums, but I have heard that most newbies grow males most of the time.


 The DNA doesn't care about your growing CV. The M/F ratio is in the DNA and the avg is 50%. Good luck. 



drgreenGMX said:


> ALB what do you think the reason is behind so many people flushing?


 Beats the shit out of me. It won't hurt anything if you do it, even major nute makers like Canna (and I use Canna nutes) suggest doing it. I can't detect any difference in smoking character either way. 



bugsrnme said:


> here is my hps that i blew due to hot starting...the hydro guy was telling me about a soft start thingy....can i make one of these/do i need one?


 If you are having frequent short power interruptions, what you need is some sort of device to prevent the lamp from restriking for several minutes, perhaps 10-15m once power is restored. I'm not sure 'soft starting' is what we're looking for here. You need a delay circuit that prevents hot restrike.



> here's a shot of my freshly ...end of the third week...s.o.g. pruned beauties ...16 of them staggered. i'm still workin out which mums the bees knees


 Wow, they're a bit tall! Did those get some veg time before they were flowered?



> i had to force myself to go back over them a second time to really take it off......it was painfull, but i'm over it. and i think i'll be happy when i see the results.
> 
> just an update for ya al.....all of it was thanks to your tutulage.


 We'll see how she goes.



corral hollow kid said:


> I will avoid the stabilized type. Thank you.
> 
> I was just told there is a stop sale on 35% H2O2 stuff in California right now. Who knows...soon it may not be available here in CA! Damn EPA.


Someone floated that rumour with me on here some time ago. I was not able to find any news items on a ban in Calif. I was able to find 35% H2O2 on the shelf at 4 hydro shops in LA. I can't find any substance in that rumour right now. 



> I added a good air pump, some 4" disc stones, and a small fountain pump to keep the solution circulating in my reservoir. My water does not stink any more and it is crystal clear!!! Hopefully the plants will recover soon. (Ionic Grow nutes, H2O2, ec 1.4, pH 5.7 and holding!)


dynamite. 



> Do I need to keep the air and circulating pump on 24/7? or can I set it on a timer?


tank aeration should run 24/7. 

I'd run the circ pump on a timer 15 mins/hr. The flooding & draining of your system will mix them pretty well, tho. Keep in mind that a constantly running pump in your tank may warm the tank temp. 



> One more quick question...how often should I reapply the H2O2 to the reservoir?


35% is used at 1.7ml/L every 3-4 days, 50% @ 1ml/L same interval. 



> Thanks again Al...you're a life saver!!!


I bet the big hole in the middle of me was a dead giveaway. 



fshields1 said:


> the blades of the leaves went from 7 down to 1 single blade.


Ah, ok, it's just shifting into flowering is all, no biggie. Nice looking indica dom hybrid. About 3 wks flowering pictured here?


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## fshields1 (Sep 5, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Ah, ok, it's just shifting into flowering is all, no biggie. Nice looking indica dom hybrid. About 3 wks flowering pictured here?


 
yup just 3 weeks exactly, good to hear that its nothing major. thanks


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## grandpabear3 (Sep 5, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *bugsrnme*  
_here is my hps that i blew due to hot starting...the hydro guy was telling me about a soft start thingy....can i make one of these/do i need one?_

If you are having frequent short power interruptions, what you need is some sort of device to prevent the lamp from restriking for several minutes, perhaps 10-15m once power is restored. I'm not sure 'soft starting' is what we're looking for here. You need a delay circuit that prevents hot restrike.


well i guess i'll start workin on that next

Quote:
here's a shot of my freshly ...end of the third week...s.o.g. pruned beauties ...16 of them staggered. i'm still workin out which mums the bees knees 
Wow, they're a bit tall! Did those get some veg time before they were flowered?

no flowering at all but the light was about 4 feet above the table....

Quote:
i had to force myself to go back over them a second time to really take it off......it was painfull, but i'm over it. and i think i'll be happy when i see the results.

just an update for ya al.....all of it was thanks to your tutulage. 
We'll see how she goes.

i think i'm gettin back on track.


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## grandpabear3 (Sep 5, 2008)

Quote:
Thanks again Al...you're a life saver!!! 
I bet the big hole in the middle of me was a dead giveaway. 

too damn funny....i almost peed


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## archie6214 (Sep 5, 2008)

Hey Al, I'm still working on raising my mums. I'm getting ready to take clones to determine which are female. My question is it ok to to put them under flouresccent lighting @ 12/12 to get them to show sex?


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## Phinxter (Sep 5, 2008)

Al B. I am going to go hydro on my next grow which will be in about 9 weeks give or take.
what i am thinking as my plan is to get a 30 site EZ clone and a 3' X 3' econo 1 ebb and flow setup.

as well a 24 site insert for the ebb and flow table as seen here Netwell Insert for 3&#8217; x 3&#8217; Trays Accepts 24 - 5½'' Heavy Duty Net Pots

since i will be cloning with only neoprene collars am i right to assume that i can then use only hydroton or similar in my 5.5 diameter net pots ?
there by eliminating the need for rockwool or equivalent helping avoid overwatering ?

or do you recommend using some rockwool like substance to help retain water ?
and if you recommend rockwool or some equivalent, do you recommend i use it in the cloning process as well as in the ebb and flow tray?
thanks in advance Al. you rock

PS tried to +rep you in advance but apparently i was stoned off my ass and did it before cuz it says i need to spread the love before i +rep you again.
lol i know you dont play the +rep game alot as you say but you deserve it ... only wish i could +rep you for every great bit of advice ive taken from you.


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## VictorVIcious (Sep 5, 2008)

Thanx for the measurements. This one is going to by 760mm wide and 610mm across. I bought a piece of aluminum angle with the holes already in it and attached that to the 's' strips a few adjustments will still have to be made, it is taking shape. VV


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## Old in the Way (Sep 5, 2008)

Hey Al,
Thanks again for the ongoing dialogue with everyone here. 

My yeild question-Does that mean .5g/total watts in flower room or .5g per watt over the harvested tray. (i have 3kw in room and harvesting 1kw at a time, as i think you know) Again i feel confident in my floriculture skills and to be honest would be a bit disappointed with 500 grams from a 3.5 square meter tray. I am growing "heavier yielders" according to the breeder descriptions-many of whom make claims as to g/m2 in sog. I realize this would be a best case scenario as i am no breeder and they have long since mastered many of the conditions needed.

What are the pitfalls i face that will imact yeild so severely? What can I be doing now to ensure i don't end up with 1/3rd the efficiency per watt that you are seeing? Would you mind if posting your recipes for your flower room resevoirs when you have enough time?
(I should be starting to flower my test ladies in about 3-4 weeks so no hurry there.) 


Hydroguard-Yes indeed is right on the hydroguard, not h202. i have spoken to the hydro shop i use about 350km from here and indeed it is what they offer as a sub. I am in an area where i should have no problem sourcing the real stuff thanks to the med community but i dont use the local hydro shop as it is in a high profile univesity location. I do have 2 airstones in each res and it is a top drip system using hydroton (expanded clay pellets) for the medium and is on a 2hr on 2hr off timer for the drip.

Will those methods and the use of airstones assist in oxiginating my roots?
Is that sufficient till i source the h2o2?

As to the magic saucey factor of the fulvic acid-i agree, it would seem the hard science is missing and while i do not like that from a control perspective i am a believer in a little mother nature luv-and figure it can't hurt. I have seen it in the recipes of some large ops and it is not cost prohibitive to use on a regular basis. I will run a batch without to see if there is any discernable difference.

I will post some pics when there is something besides 47 seedlings to take pics of. 

One last question.

Do you use a proxy server that specializes in privacy and anonimity for your communications on here or similar threads? Or do you just roll straight up. Before i post any pics or such i wwould like to know more about the safety of such open forums.

Thanks again mate.


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## sparkafire (Sep 5, 2008)

corral hollow kid said:


> I will avoid the stabilized type. Thank you.
> 
> I was just told there is a stop sale on 35% H2O2 stuff in California right now. Who knows...soon it may not be available here in CA! Damn EPA.


Here Cali brother

Just called them yesterday and she said nothing of not being able to sell it. 

Clarkson Price lists


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## Return of the Spork (Sep 5, 2008)

That site is just what I was looking for. How are you buying? Online or call order? They only appear to have the 30% h2o2 by the gallon. Do anyone know what the ACS part of this means?

 HYDROGEN PEROXIDE REAGENT ACS 30% 1GALLON


Edit: I am guessing it means American Chemical Society, perhaps a measurement standard?


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 5, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> Quote:
> Thanks again Al...you're a life saver!!!
> I bet the big hole in the middle of me was a dead giveaway.
> 
> too damn funny....i almost peed


Me 2!


----------



## sparkafire (Sep 5, 2008)

Return of the Spork said:


> That site is just what I was looking for. How are you buying? Online or call order? They only appear to have the 30% h2o2 by the gallon. Do anyone know what the ACS part of this means?
> 
> HYDROGEN PEROXIDE REAGENT ACS 30% 1GALLON
> 
> ...


I was looking at HC0055-G technical 35% Call them and ask. She was real nice.


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## Return of the Spork (Sep 5, 2008)

Oh cool, I was looking at the online store area, yeah that is much cheaper. Looks like you get a 25% discount if you buy 4 gallons at once. I will call her up next week.


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## WoldofWeedcraft (Sep 5, 2008)

Hey Al, I have an old cupboard I need to get rid of, and I was thinking of turning it into a little grow cabinet that's kind of a micro scale of your set up. The thing is, it's got two main shelves (One for flower and one for veg). But the flower shelf is only 30" wide x 16" deep x 37" tall. I could fit 8 6" pots in there, but would I have enough height for HPS with 37"? If not, I'd have to break that shelf into just one main cabinet to get a few more feet, and not have the veg box attached. Also what light would be appropriate for that small of a cabinet? I was thinking 400-600 watt HPS with cool tubes.


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## Return of the Spork (Sep 5, 2008)

Hey Al, I have read around the forums a bit that if you harvest earlier you get more of an "up" high, whereas if you harvest later you get more of a couchlock high.

Is that true?

If it is would it be reasonable that if I harvested half early and half late I would get two batches that smoked differently than eachother?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 5, 2008)

archie6214 said:


> My question is it ok to to put them under flouresccent lighting @ 12/12 to get them to show sex?


 Yep, that will do fine. Have your flowering area with HPS lighting set up, tested (without plants in it, for a week or so, keeping an eye on your peak-mem thermo so you know the temps will be right) and ready to fly in case the cuttings are female. They can be your first crop. 



Phinxter said:


> Al B. I am going to go hydro on my next grow which will be in about 9 weeks give or take.
> what i am thinking as my plan is to get a 30 site EZ clone and a 3' X 3' econo 1 ebb and flow setup.


 Sounds good 



> as well a 24 site insert for the ebb and flow table as seen here Netwell Insert for 3&#8217; x 3&#8217; Trays Accepts 24 - 5½'' Heavy Duty Net Pots


 I don't think the insert is terribly necessary in a flood op, but it'll keep your pots from tipping over if you use a lightweight medium with a tendency to float like Fytocell.



> since i will be cloning with only neoprene collars am i right to assume that i can then use only hydroton or similar in my 5.5 diameter net pots ?
> there by eliminating the need for rockwool or equivalent helping avoid overwatering ?


 Yep, good plan.



> or do you recommend using some rockwool like substance to help retain water ?
> and if you recommend rockwool or some equivalent, do you recommend i use it in the cloning process as well as in the ebb and flow tray?


 I have always had better results from cloning in RW cubes as opposed to an aerocloner, but if you can make an aerocloner work well, more power to you. Yes, medialess cloning can be preferable if you intend to raise your plants in pellets. You will get the same result from medialess and RW cubes nested in the pellets, as long as the RW cube is nested so it is 1/2" above the flood line. With plants cloned in a medialess method, the roots can be placed right at or below the flood line. Don't put them too terribly deep in the pots; roots seek downward. If you put them in too deep, not much of the media will be filled with roots. 


> thanks in advance Al. you rock
> 
> PS tried to +rep you in advance but apparently i was stoned off my ass and did it before cuz it says i need to spread the love before i +rep you again.
> lol i know you dont play the +rep game alot as you say but you deserve it ... only wish i could +rep you for every great bit of advice ive taken from you.


 heh, thanks. 



VictorVIcious said:


> Thanx for the measurements. This one is going to by 760mm wide and 610mm across. I bought a piece of aluminum angle with the holes already in it and attached that to the 's' strips a few adjustments will still have to be made, it is taking shape. VV


 dynamite, looks great.  If you haven't made plans to do so, the ref will need a couple-three coats of a good quality hi-temp flat white exhaust header paint on the reflector side. Alternatively, you can get out your alloy polishing kit and polish the holy bejesus out of the reflection surface and then protect it with a layer or three of hi-temp clearcoat. The surface will otherwise oxidise. Aluminum oxide isn't the best reflecting stuff.



Old in the Way said:


> My yeild question-Does that mean .5g/total watts in flower room or .5g per watt over the harvested tray.


 A good first harvest would be .5g/W based on a single 1kW, presuming you are harvesting everything under that 1kW light. Since you'll be doing a SoG op, harvesting more often than the standard 8 weeks for a single light op, you'll base your figures on the last light in your chain. 

If you are using that last 1000 to raise 2 trays at a time but only harvesting from 1 tray, divide the lamp power by 2 and calculate on that basis, since that harvested tray was only using half the light from that lamp. 

If you harvested the whole room at once, you'd calculate the entire harvest wt against the total flowering area watts. 




> What are the pitfalls i face that will imact yeild so severely? What can I be doing now to ensure i don't end up with 1/3rd the efficiency per watt that you are seeing? Would you mind if posting your recipes for your flower room resevoirs when you have enough time?


 Errors accumulate and are recorded in the total performance of the grow. The trick is to make as few errors as possible. Make sure the nute strength & pH are always right, tanks are dosed with H2O2 per schedule, temps are right, nothing's overwatered, etc etc. 

All 4 of my flowering area tanks run Canna Flores, 1400ppm @ 5.8 except for wk 6, where I add about 50ml of Canna's PK 13-14 in addition to the usual 450ml A + 450ml B in 125L tanks. I'm getting kinda annoyed with the PK stuff as it seems that when I use it, I get a passel of yellowing leaves by harvest time, probably K toxicity. the PK bumps up the nute strength to about 1700. I may back down tank 4 to perhaps 1000 -1100ppm tocompensate. 



> Hydroguard-Yes indeed is right on the hydroguard, not h202. i have spoken to the hydro shop i use about 350km from here and indeed it is what they offer as a sub.


 wow, and I thought my 200km round trip to the hydro shop was bad.  

Obviously, Hydroguard isn't an acceptable sub for H2O2.



> I do have 2 airstones in each res and it is a top drip system using hydroton (expanded clay pellets) for the medium and is on a 2hr on 2hr off timer for the drip.


 Sounds good, but you know I have no love lost on drip systems due to the potential for dried nute salts clogging the drippers unless they're cleaned frequently. 



> Will those methods and the use of airstones assist in oxiginating my roots?
> Is that sufficient till i source the h2o2?


 Airstones will deal with oxygenation but won't do anything for pathogen control. Let's hope the competing bacteria sauce will keep you out of dutch until you get some H2O2. 



> As to the magic saucey factor of the fulvic acid-i agree, it would seem the hard science is missing and while i do not like that from a control perspective i am a believer in a little mother nature luv-and figure it can't hurt. I have seen it in the recipes of some large ops and it is not cost prohibitive to use on a regular basis. I will run a batch without to see if there is any discernable difference.


 Yeah, I started worrying when I saw some new-agey website spruiking fulvic acid for human health, with a number of scienceless superlatives. Buncha tree-huggin' hippie crap.  May as well hang some crystals & pyramids over your head and hope for the goddesses to bless thee. Every once in a while, I'm tempted to drop in on 'fully organic' grow threads and leave comments like 'Blessed be' cos I'm really a chemical loving dickhead at heart.  Thankfully, I usually stop myself at the last second. 

A truer test would be to run parallel, simultaneous control plants against your test plants. Might be difficult as you'd need separate watering systems to do it.



> Do you use a proxy server that specializes in privacy and anonimity for your communications on here or similar threads? Or do you just roll straight up. Before i post any pics or such i wwould like to know more about the safety of such open forums.


 I haven't used proxies much because they slow me way down. Bear in mind that I'm posting to a board located outside of my country of residence and I never, ever buy or sell any plant matter (not even seeds) via cannabis boards. I'd like to see RIU add https (secure protocol) as an option. That way, there's no snooping between you & the server running the RIU forum. LEO would have to be looking at the plaintext after decryption and would need to be 'inside' the RIU server (or your computer) with spyware. We can only depend on the security practises of the RIU board operators, whether you use a proxy or not. Your security practises are much more important. Don't give away specifics about your location, make sure there's nothing identifiable in the background of images you post. I'm actually more concerned about nosy neighbours who notice fan noise & scents. Silence is paramount, both out of your grow and your yap. 

In any case, I've been using cannabis boards since about 1995, mostly without proxies, with no hassles. Either I'm a very small fish or no one is checking up on me. If I was selling buds online, I bet I would have attracted some attention by now.



WoldofWeedcraft said:


> But the flower shelf is only 30" wide x 16" deep x 37" tall. I could fit 8 6" pots in there, but would I have enough height for HPS with 37"?


Your cabinet is about the size of my clonebox. You'll need 1m for plants, 300mm lamp-leaf spacing, then room for the watering system below the flood tray, at least another 300mm. Sorry, it's just got to be bigger. You need something a little closer to 1.8m tall. Think freestanding wardrobe-sized, about 1.8m H x 1m wide x 600mm deep or in that general area. Your old cupboard may make a good clonebox, tho. 



Return of the Spork said:


> Hey Al, I have read around the forums a bit that if you harvest earlier you get more of an "up" high, whereas if you harvest later you get more of a couchlock high.
> 
> Is that true?


&#916;9-THC can be broken down into non-psychoactive or less psychoactive cannabinoids by exposing buds to temps above 29C. &#916;9-THC is converted into cannabidiol (CBD) and cannabidinol (CBN), which either are not psychoactive alone but moderate the psychoactive effects of &#916;9-THC or induce lethargy. 

When you hear stuff like this, you have to wonder about the conds in the grow. Hot grows are much more common than properly functioning ones. I can see the &#916;9-THC being converted as a result of excessively high temps in the grow. If your temps are under control (24-26C) and your drying procedures are cool (literally), your &#916;9-THC should remain &#916;9-THC until you roll it up.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 5, 2008)

On the topic of 'up' vs 'couchlock' highs, there's more than a bit of anecdotal evidence that primarily indica dominant strains tend to produce the couchlock but are better for pain control for med users. Primarily sativa strains are reputed for cerebral, light buzzes. 

Most growers run primarily indica hybrids because they are much faster, heavier producers than sativas. Also, a lot of smokers prefer the heavy, couchlock buzz and just don't appreciate an 'up' headbuzz. 

As such, it's nice to have a sativa mum around and flower a few copies from time to time just for a bit of variety, but if you need to pound the ounces out of the op, indicas are the way to go.


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## Return of the Spork (Sep 5, 2008)

So just to clarify because we are all stoners afterall, the couchlock effect is essentially caused by the breakdown of the &#916;9-THC into CBD and CBN? (Well the strain too obviously but we are talking about the different states of the &#916;9-THC molecule)

So the more the bud's &#916;9-THC molecules break down, the more lethargic the weed should essentially make you?

Would it then be safe to assume that older weed has had the opportunity to degredate more? Because I am at the end of a batch that wasn't stored super well, I would say so-so storage method and while it was the same plant, it is definitely before bed smokage.

Definitely prefer the up high

-Spork


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 5, 2008)

After looking at Mr Green's YT vid, I thought I should make mention of how to properly drip feed a pot of pellets. 

Don't use single-point emitter drippers. There's only one aperture to clog and if you don't clean them with a toothbrush frequently, you can be a fucked bunny. You'll wind up with a narrow column of wet pellets and the roots will form mainly there instead of throughout your pellets. 

You need to buy or make one of these:







Just a tee fitting with some flexible tubing which has some 2mm holes on the underside. This will evenly wet the pot of pellets to encourage root formation throughout the pot, has numerous holes so 1-2 clogs don't stop the show and will keep RW cubes if used from being saturated.


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## Old in the Way (Sep 5, 2008)

All Great stuff Al-Thanks.

Made a few adjustments after your post with the ph info-running a straight 5.8 as of this morning. Should have my h2o2 by first of the week. 

For nute strength-I am preparing to take them to 1100ppm for day7-14 of veg up from the 700ppm for day 1-6. Its ok??

Will continue the use of crystals and hippie-dippie magic at least until its gone (friggin long-hairs at them hydro shops) and then run with nothing but the scientifically engineered products for my resevoirs. 

On security related issues-i figured it is all pretty chill since as you said we are all VERY small fish in the grand scheme. Just figure good coomon sense and my stealth lifestyle will serve me as well here as it does in the real world. Those being the two main reasons i decided to start this up-not to mention the 6-7k a yr i was spending with my dear friends at the grow-op the same 350km away as the friggin hippie-hydro store. Oh and i made the mistake of retiring 20 yrs early just to watch the us economy fall to shit. I'll be damned if I am going back to the rat-race. Had to work almost 5 hrs this week, I thought it was going to kill me. Puts a damper on my tennis and golf schedule-which before you laugh....is grueling. (tennis is a bitch for us old farts after a wake and bake with Soma's NYCDiesel-does help with the joint pain though)

Lastly,
Saw your post in regards to the aeroclonre v. rockwool for cloning. I am an experienced propagator (no canna exp. but a shitload of woody ornamentals) and saw the aerocloner as a way to save some time and headaches but at 400usd I wonder if I made a mistake in the purchase. You have not seen the "foolproof ease" they claim to offer?? Or just personal preference for you and the rw?

Thanks again for the input.
-O. Way


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 5, 2008)

Return of the Spork said:


> So just to clarify because we are all stoners afterall, the couchlock effect is essentially caused by the breakdown of the &#916;9-THC into CBD and CBN? (Well the strain too obviously but we are talking about the different states of the &#916;9-THC molecule)


Spot on. 


> So the more the bud's &#916;9-THC molecules break down, the more lethargic the weed should essentially make you?


Yep, that's the hypothesis. 



> Would it then be safe to assume that older weed has had the opportunity to degredate more? Because I am at the end of a batch that wasn't stored super well, I would say so-so storage method and while it was the same plant, it is definitely before bed smokage.


Yes, poor storage is a primary cause of &#916;9-THC degradation. Ideal storage conds are 10-21C, in darkness. Freezing isn't recommended as it drives water out of buds (like freezing a loaf of bread) and can make them harsh to smoke. Storage in the fridge may cause some condensation in the container of the 1-2% normal water content of properly smokably dry buds. Light exposure is also anecdotally implicated in THC degradation, but I don't know how that jibes with light exposure while the buds are still on the plant. If light exposure were a strong cause of degradation, you wouldn't get any &#916;9-THC, it'd all be CBD or CBN by harvest time. 

The anti-drug & LEO community have used &#916;9-THC degradation in storage toward their own nefarious ends. As part of the 'Not Your Father's Marijuana' lie, data acquired from analysing old seized cannabis samples, which invariably test artifically low in &#916;9-THC are compared to recently harvested seized samples. A 10 year old sample may be 1% &#916;9-THC due to conversion of most of the &#916;9-THC to CBD & CBN (which conveniently are not tested for); a sample which is a month or so old which has been stored well might have 10-15%, so the cops & nutjobs instantly figure someone has invented some new 1000-1500% stronger superweed. In anti-drug parlance, 'drugs are baaaaaaad,' so they also figure that more THC means 'more dangerous!!!', not figuring on the self-titrating nature of cannabis. If buds have more &#916;9-THC, the user will smoke less, reducing the harm from inhaled burning vegetable matter smoke. 

Can't count on the anti-drug wowsers or the cops for commonsense as they have a vested interest in perpetuating the drug war. In other words, figures lie and liars figure. There's a good reason why proper peer-reviewed scholarly research into cannbis is routinely blocked by drug law enforcement authorities and zero-tolerance wowsers. The truth would put them out of a job, simple as that.


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## gvega187 (Sep 5, 2008)

hey al, got some 3x3 trays. Do you prefer the fittings in the middle of the tray for any reason? Or or they to the sides? (plumbing)

just want 2 make sure 2 do it rite the 1st time when drilling. ty


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 5, 2008)

gvega187 said:


> hey al, got some 3x3 trays. Do you prefer the fittings in the middle of the tray for any reason? Or or they to the sides? (plumbing)


The weight of plants, pots & wet media will cause the tray to bow. The lowest point will be in the very middle. Put your fittings there.

Some plastics are not very drill/holesaw friendly. They'll crack if the bit bites in. Use an old soldering iron to melt the holes and clean them up with a fine file or sandpaper to avoid cracking the tray.


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## archie6214 (Sep 5, 2008)

Hey Al, I had a quick question for ya. I purchased this meter about 10 days ago and calibrated it when I got it home. I just checked it tonight and the calibraion was like .7 off I think when dipped into 7.0 calibration solution. Is this normal? How often should you calibrate your meters? It has me a little concerned b/c my nutrient solution has been at 5.2 when I thought it was at 5.8? Also it says 2 part calibration 7.0 and/or 4.0, can I just calibrate it at 7.0 or do I need to do both 7.0 and 4.0? Thanks again for all your help.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 5, 2008)

archie6214 said:


> Hey Al, I had a quick question for ya. I purchased this meter about 10 days ago and calibrated it when I got it home.


Most pH meter instructions (which I KNOW you read. ) direct you to soak the meter electrode in water for somewhere between an hour and a day before use. The electrode tip must also ALWAYS be kept damp by keeping a bit of wet sponge in the meter cap. Failure to perform these steps will result in a wandering reading while testing or big errors when calibrating. 



> can I just calibrate it at 7.0 or do I need to do both 7.0 and 4.0?


You'll need to calibrate to both values, usually 7 first, then dip in plain water to clean off the electrode, then dip the 4.0 soln. Rinse the tip in water again, then dip the 7 soln again to verify it's calibrated. Rinse and dip 4, verifying the meter reads correctly. 

The reason for this procedure is to set the gain of an amplifier circuit which converts the very small electrical signal from the glass bulb electrode into a signal large enough to be processed further in the rest of the metering circuits. You are setting the linearity, making sure the meter has the same sensitivity across the range 4.0-7.0.

Is it a pain to do? You bet it is. Unfortunately, this is how all pH meters work. You should calibrate your meter before each use.

Did you shoot low the other day? It's possible, but if you calibrated immediately before testing the nute soln, it should have been right. If it was stored dry, the error probably occurred after the fact. 

Does your inst booklet specify keeping the probe wet & soaking for a spell before use? If so, do those and try the meter again after a day. I bet it's closer to right. 

But then again, it could be a Hanna...


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## archie6214 (Sep 5, 2008)

Yeah the instructions suggest to keep a little of the calibration solution in the protective cap for storage. So you're saying to just cut a little piece of sponge and place in the cap and keep it moist with water? Calibrate before every use!! I didn't know that, glad I asked now, thought once every 2-3 weeks would suffice!!

Oh yeah is it alright to just dip the meter in the bottle of calibration solution, or should I pour it out into a second container to calibrate, and then dispose of it?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 5, 2008)

yep, a tiny bit cut off a clean, new kitchen sponge will keep the soln in the cap and the probe suitably dampened. 

Do calibrate your meter before each use unless and until you can be confident after some weeks of using it that it doesn't wander much. 

You should still calibrate frequently, if not every time, because you'll forget when you last did it.


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## archie6214 (Sep 5, 2008)

Thanks again AL for the quick reply. I must say you have to be the biggest asset for this online community. Much respect for you bro.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 5, 2008)

heh, thanx. Let us know if the meter starts behaving itself after a little soak & a bit o' damp sponge in the cap.

FYI, that sponge bit can get a bit funky after a while. Change it every couple of weeks and clean the meter probe tip with a toothbrush & a soln of 1ml 50% grade H2O2 in 10ml water.


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## Chumlie (Sep 5, 2008)

whats up Al? Hey one of my plants has zinc def, and it's probably form nute lock. The new leaves haver oragne the brown tips. First if it is nute lock then I shuldn't add any slag tea, are will it hurt it? Well its the only one with it so it may nut be nute lock.

Well my main question is how to make tea with slag. You think a cup would be enough for the one plant even though it will mix and go into the other plants?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

Old in the Way said:


> For nute strength-I am preparing to take them to 1100ppm for day7-14 of veg up from the 700ppm for day 1-6. Its ok??


yep, should be fine.



> Saw your post in regards to the aeroclonre v. rockwool for cloning. I am an experienced propagator (no canna exp. but a shitload of woody ornamentals)


bitchefershure, I could use your help propagating grevilleas and some Wollemi pines. 



> saw the aerocloner as a way to save some time and headaches but at 400usd I wonder if I made a mistake in the purchase. You have not seen the "foolproof ease" they claim to offer?? Or just personal preference for you and the rw?


Sorry, but I'm afraid you've spent about $300-350 more than you needed to. Did you keep the receipt? Hope so.

I never found aerocloners to be foolproof at all. I got inconsistent results with them, probably due to inability to control the rootzone temp as closely as one can with RW cubes on a heat mat.

 

Can't be much more than $50-100 to set up a clonebox with a couple fluoros, a small exhaust fan & thermostat and a heat mat, depending upon what bits for one you might already have lying around.


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## GypsyBush (Sep 6, 2008)

Hey Al...!

Hope it's all good in your neck of the woods...

Gotta question about HPS lights and distance from the plants...

I've been reading that a 100 Watt HPS is good enough for a 2x2 at a 2 foot distance from the tops...

I have a very small clone garden with some CFLs and a 35 watt HPS with 2250 initial lumens and 1900k... and yes it is an Aerogarden... but let's just pretend it's not... I know you don't like them... 

Since it runs so cool, I can keep it 3 to 4 inches away without burns...

Does it being so close compensate for the fact that it is only 35 Watts...

I have been contemplating getting a 70 Watt to compare the temp diff, but then again I could just double up on the 35's and get better distribution... yes?

What are your thoughts...?

Thanks for letting me pick your brain... I did search around, but no one uses that small of a set up, with such small plants...

Cheers!!!

Gypsy...


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> it is an Aerogarden... but let's just pretend it's not...


Lighting is your smallest problem. You've got serious root disease and that's probably related to pathogens (pythium, fusarium) in the Aerogarden. Tear it apart, clean all water contact surfaces with a solution of 10ml 50% grade H2O2 in 1L water. Apply 50% grade H2O2 to standard (not organic) nutes at 1ml/L every 3-4 days. Change nutes every 2 weeks. Verify that the oxygenation system in the Aerothing is working, however that is accomplished, by air pump or water spraying. 

Replace all your small HPS lights with a single 150 or preferably 250W HPS. You'll get more lumens/watt than your hodgepodge of small lamps, much more intensity and a good chance of making some dense nugs. Got to fix the root problems first. 

What I like least about Aerogardens is that you can have a damn competent 250W wardrobe grow which reliably puts out an oz every 2 weeks for the same amount of dough. 'As seen on TV' does not mean 'good.'


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

Let's be clear here; I dislike Aerogardens because they're too small to grow cannabis plants and they flower with fluoros, a recipe for low quality & poor yield. 

While I think the Aerogarden is not well suited for the task of growing cannabis and is not good value for money, I don't dislike the _*people*_ who use them; I really feel sorry for them. They've thrown a lot of cash at something which is going to disappoint them. There's better ways do do the job, much more cheaply.

All that aside, I _can_ make a troubled Aerogarden grow work, given sufficient HPS lighting and a room/tent with good ventilation/temp control. It's a small aeroponic system like any other, albeit with some control circuitry that for the most part doesn't suit cannabis and makes it just that much harder to use. It'll have the same problems as any other aero grow.


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## GypsyBush (Sep 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Lighting is your smallest problem. You've got serious root disease and that's probably related to pathogens (pythium, fusarium) in the Aerogarden. Tear it apart, clean all water contact surfaces with a solution of 10ml 50% grade H2O2 in 1L water. Apply 50% grade H2O2 to standard (not organic) nutes at 1ml/L every 3-4 days. Change nutes every 2 weeks. Verify that the oxygenation system in the Aerothing is working, however that is accomplished, by air pump or water spraying.
> 
> Replace all your small HPS lights with a single 150 or preferably 250W HPS. You'll get more lumens/watt than your hodgepodge of small lamps, much more intensity and a good chance of making some dense nugs. Got to fix the root problems first.
> 
> What I like least about Aerogardens is that for the cost of one, you can have a damn competent 250W wardrobe grow which reliably puts out an oz every 2 weeks for the same amount of dough. 'As seen on TV' does not mean 'good.'



Thanks for replying man...

The root issues come from me not being able to remove 100% of the rockwool the clones were rooted in... those parts were soaked and drowned... I think...

The water pump and the airstone I added are working...

There are new white roots popping up on all of the original clones... Should I try to remove some of that old rotted root material???

I will wash as you instructed...

As for nutes I am using a product called Bloom Juice by NSR Greenleaves, and in the front of the bottle it says 2-5-4... is that 20-50-40???

Do you run any such small bulbs?
I am curious about how much heat they produce at what distances...

I will look into the 250 Watt, but I am afraid I will run into heat issues...
Some tests will confirm that...

As for the value of the Aerothingy...

I got more than just the plastic parts...
It has been an introduction to indoor/hydro growing...
It has taken a lot of the mystery out of the picture...

I agree you can do the same or better with the same money...
But for a beginner with zero knowledge, it has been a great tool...

Would I buy a second one? NO WAY!!!! I will build my own...

But I must say, that I went from zero to having a set up with clones in one afternoon, and that would have been impossible with the knowledge I had at the time...

Well thanks again!!!

Gypsy...


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## GypsyBush (Sep 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Let's be clear here; I dislike Aerogardens because they're too small to grow cannabis plants and they flower with fluoros, a recipe for low quality & poor yield.


So if I switch to a bigger HPS and use it to flower 4 inch clones... does that paint a little better picture...???





Al B. Fuct said:


> While I think the Aerogarden is not well suited for the task of growing cannabis and is not good value for money, I don't dislike the _*people*_ who use them; I really feel sorry for them. They've thrown a lot of cash at something which is going to disappoint them. There's better ways do do the job, much more cheaply.


I knew that, otherwise you wouldn't have taken the time... 

I wouldn't feel to sorry for me, I have had a blast, and the money I have spent is well within my "play budget"...

Also got to take into consideration that I am recovering from a severe leg brake (therefore making the play budget a little bigger, because I can't do shit), and walking the isles of HD or WM is not at all possible without a lot of pain...
Going to the store and picking up one box, was deff, a plus in my situation...




Al B. Fuct said:


> All that aside, I _can_ make a troubled Aerogarden grow work, given sufficient HPS lighting and a room/tent with good ventilation/temp control. It's a small aeroponic system like any other, albeit with some control circuitry that for the most part doesn't suit cannabis and makes it just that much harder to use. It'll have the same problems as any other aero grow.



So maybe a 250 watt HPS inside of a cool tube on a batwing...?

Any idea how close I could keep it to my 4 inch clones?

It sounds overkill...

But you know... I am asking... hehehe!

Thanks again and again and again... you are one cool dude for taking the time to answer everyones questions...!!!

Much respect...!!!

Gypsy...


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## xtc420 (Sep 6, 2008)

hi Al... i've read alot of posts from you and there's one thing that i remember you saying that it is okay to give your plants tap water... is that true? because i've got four clones.. just got em today =) (reaaally excited!!first grow) and i checked my tap water and the ph came out around 7.5 and the ppm over 300 =( is this bad.?? if true.. can you please give me some good advice on how to fix this problem? any reply is much appreciated~ thank you in advance!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> The root issues come from me not being able to remove 100% of the rockwool the clones were rooted in... those parts were soaked and drowned... I think...


 Sounds probable.



> The water pump and the airstone I added are working...


 Sounds like Grandpa's axe- you know, the one that's on its third head and fourth handle- but by gum, that's Grandpa's axe! 



> There are new white roots popping up on all of the original clones...


Good news. 



> Should I try to remove some of that old rotted root material???


 If you can do so without damaging the new roots, have a go. 



> As for nutes I am using a product called Bloom Juice by NSR Greenleaves, and in the front of the bottle it says 2-5-4... is that 20-50-40???


 No, it's 2-5-4. Sounds like a fairly weak nutrient.



> Do you run any such small bulbs?
> I am curious about how much heat they produce at what distances...


 Nope, the smallest I use is a 400HPS.



> I will look into the 250 Watt, but I am afraid I will run into heat issues...
> Some tests will confirm that...


 Improve the ventilation. Air has to be forcibly removed from the area. A small grow like yours is a good candidate for a freestanding wardrobe or growtent with a 250HPS in a cooltube and a separate exhaust fan. 



GypsyBush said:


> So if I switch to a bigger HPS and use it to flower 4 inch clones... does that paint a little better picture...???


4 inches tall? Why so short? 



> So maybe a 250 watt HPS inside of a cool tube on a batwing...?


For a 250, a cooltube with an internal reflector will do, it won't be covering a very large area.



> Any idea how close I could keep it to my 4 inch clones?


3-6"



> It sounds overkill...


It sounds a 4-6 plant SoG op which yields between .5 & 1oz every 2 weeks to me. How much can you smoke?


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## purpdaddy (Sep 6, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> So if I switch to a bigger HPS and use it to flower 4 inch clones... does that paint a little better picture...???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 instead of getting that 250w. hps or mh..you can get a couple 150w. cfl replacement bulbs for a fraction of the price(2900) Lumens each.I added 4 more plus the old AG hood and i am having no probs with lightiing.But i also agree with al.The AG is not for growing cannabis and needs a makeover, but we can make this thing work,ever since i added the extrs cfl's i am having no probs with light.but if you do dcide to go with the 250w or whatever.dont even use the AG hood.


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## saturnlily (Sep 6, 2008)

damn i just keep pulling prob. out my ass. sorry. i need your help again now they are spotting yellow and brown on theaves and they are crisping.... here are pics.sorry they are a little blurry the pruple circles are what im talking about.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

purpdaddy said:


> instead of getting that 250w. hps or mh..you can get a couple 150w. cfl replacement bulbs for a fraction of the price(2900) Lumens each.



1) lumens don't add. The lumen figure is a measure of brightness. No lamp gets brighter because there is another one beside it. 2x 2900lm lamps yields 2900 lumens. 

2) A 250HPS yields 28,500 lumens, the lamp tube is $20. An entire kit with ballast and ref is $117.

3) 150W CFLs are about $60 each.

4) Flowering with fluoros is a waste of time. Yields thin, fluffy buds.

5) Giving advice you haven't researched makes you look silly every single time..


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

saturnlily said:


> damn i just keep pulling prob. out my ass. sorry. i need your help again now they are spotting yellow and brown on theaves and they are crisping.... here are pics.sorry they are a little blurry the pruple circles are what im talking about.


Looks like either lamp too close or pH probs. How far is your HPS from the leaves?


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## saturnlily (Sep 6, 2008)

it isnt uncomfortable when my hand it above them just warm... like a foot but the ph is not 6.6


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

pH should be 5.8, move that light up to at least 36" from the leaves. Seedlings absolutely can't cop an HPS from a foot away. 

Fix those, wait a couple days and let me know how you go.


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## saturnlily (Sep 6, 2008)

oh,ok thought it was supposed to be around 6.5 from you charts but ill lower it more and raise the light thanks


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

oh, that's right, you're in soil. Yes, you're right, 6.5 then. Move the light up. That should fix the necrotic spotting.


----------



## saturnlily (Sep 6, 2008)

thanks again damn your helpfull im very lucky your on this site.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

BigBudBalls wrote:


> ---Quote (Originally by Al B. Fuct)---
> pH should be 5.8, move that light up to at least 36" from the leaves. Seedlings absolutely can't cop an HPS from a foot away.
> 
> Fix those, wait a couple days and let me know how you go.
> ...


BBB, look up three posts... then go change the water in your Aerogarden that you haven't changed in 3 mos.


----------



## BigBudBalls (Sep 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> BBB, look up three posts... then go change the water in your Aerogarden that you haven't changed in 3 mos.



 after the post, saw the answers deleted the post.

changed the AG water yesterday. The AG is only for play keeping micro mums.


----------



## purpdaddy (Sep 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 1) lumens don't add. The lumen figure is a measure of brightness. No lamp gets brighter because there is another one beside it. 2x 2900lm lamps yields 2900 lumens.
> 
> 2) A 250HPS yields 28,500 lumens, the lamp tube is $20. An entire kit with ballast and ref is $117.
> 
> ...


maybe you need stronger glasses or too quick to shoot someone down that grows in the ag but if you read my post it says 150w. replacement 5.00USD.
And i never stated that lumens add.
Trying to make me look silly makes you look even worse than you portray you are.
And im not trying to start an e-fight cause ill never see you and youll never see me.so lets just leave it at that.


----------



## purpdaddy (Sep 6, 2008)

i added more cfl"s on this grow and they are coming out way more bushier,thats all im sayin ..


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

purpdaddy said:


> maybe you need stronger glasses or too quick to shoot someone down that grows in the ag but if you read my post it says 150w. replacement 5.00USD.


You wrote:



purpdaddy said:


> instead of getting that 250w. hps or mh..you can get a couple 150w. cfl replacement bulbs for a fraction of the price(2900) Lumens each.I added 4 more plus the old AG hood and i am having no probs with lightiing.But i also agree with al.The AG is not for growing cannabis and needs a makeover, but we can make this thing work,ever since i added the extrs cfl's i am having no probs with light.but if you do dcide to go with the 250w or whatever.dont even use the AG hood.


No mention of $5 anywhere. 

Find me a 150W CFL replacement lamp for $5 and I'll make sweet love to it. 


> And i never stated that lumens add.
> Trying to make me look silly makes you look even worse than you portray you are.
> And im not trying to start an e-fight cause ill never see you and youll never see me.so lets just leave it at that.


Don't give unresearched, patently bad advice and you won't get picked on. 

Run along, now.


----------



## purpdaddy (Sep 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 damn u must not get out the house much.ya know they make medicine for paranoia.go to wal-mart.lowes.home depot etc....


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

purpdaddy said:


> damn u must not get out the house much.ya know they make medicine for paranoia.go to wal-mart.lowes.home depot etc....


None of those in Australia. 

Show me your $5, 150W CFL. Doesn't exist.


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## purpdaddy (Sep 6, 2008)

ok al. well your location explains it.any one of those stores on my previous post..you can get these by the crapload for just under 5.00USD
left 45w 2900 lumens
right 42w 2700 lumens


----------



## Fman (Sep 6, 2008)

I get about 1/2-3/4oz per plant with 1000W lights, but can do better with more attention to the op. I told you I was a fricken lazy stoner. 
-

In the 2 week harvest thread you say you are getting 1/2 to 3/4 oz per plant. Somewhere in this thread I thought I read you are now getting 1 to 1/12 oz per plant . What did you do or change to increase your yield?


----------



## Fman (Sep 6, 2008)

$5.00 cfl Id like to see that too. I paid $69 for my 200w cfl, guess I got ripped off.


----------



## Return of the Spork (Sep 6, 2008)

I am confused, I can't even get a 23W CFL at Home Depot for less than $6ish.


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## Fman (Sep 6, 2008)

n:vision
42 Watt Spiral Fluorescent Replacement Bulb
Model 5S842 
$9.97 



Add To Cart Check Your Local Store


----------



## \x0D (Sep 6, 2008)

Hey Al,
Hope all is well and you are swimming in big piles of sweet tooth 

I am thinking about starting up some new moms from clones, My current moms just donated their 6th pass ( started from seed).

Because I am vegging under flouro, im not getting the 9", >5.5mm clones that I would really like to get, and my strike rate and time sucks too. I am getting it dialed in
I number the plants, then use an alpha character to denote the pass of clone it is ,( e.g. "4F" is the 6th pass on plant 4.) so i can track what is working and what is not.

So far round "D" ( which is where i swiched from gel to powder) has been the most successful, but they are still pretty small clones. Im concerned that either my yeild will suck if i flower them at this stage with no veg time, or that I will have to suck it up and veg under hps for a few weeks ( too long inbetween harvest for my taste)

I would like to make a fast turnover with the next pass throught the flowering cab in order to get my surplus up a bit.

What do you think about tossing the old moms into the flowering cab?
They are 16-17" on average, and I have around 40" from bottom of tray to light in the cab. Is there any disadvantage to doing so?

Thanks as always!!

-\x0D


----------



## Return of the Spork (Sep 6, 2008)

Fman said:


> n:vision
> 42 Watt Spiral Fluorescent Replacement Bulb
> Model 5S842
> $9.97


Gotcha, my problem is that I was looking for daylight spectrum and they don't offer them at those places that high wattage. I had to go with the 27watters.


I thought effective wattage didn't count, and that it was the true wattage that mattered?


----------



## purpdaddy (Sep 6, 2008)

Fman said:


> n:vision
> 42 Watt Spiral Fluorescent Replacement Bulb
> Model 5S842
> $9.97
> ...


these are less


----------



## Fman (Sep 6, 2008)

I just wanted to show $9.97 is not the same as $5.00


I should mind my own biz,


----------



## purpdaddy (Sep 6, 2008)

the ones i posted are less than 9.97.


----------



## Return of the Spork (Sep 6, 2008)

You have any idea what spectrum they are by chance?


----------



## unity (Sep 6, 2008)

Al, I'm sorry to bug again, but with knowledge comes great responsibility,lol.

My issue is that my plants are not holding on to their leafs, even though new growth looks perfect. All the bigger fan leafs start to yellow and die off. 

I run a controlled environment with co2 injection. I do not vent during lights on, my co2 remains at 1500 -1700 during lights on. I obviously vent during lights off. A lot off guys vent 5 min. every 2 hours during lights on, is that necessary?

I had only one glitch with this grow, it was a ph issue during veg that caused a severe def. Aside from a root aphid infestion on the Bubba Kush when I got it from the dispensary. I thought that once it was corrected the plant would progress normal, am I wrong in assuming that? It appears almost like the plants are still deficient, but the new growth has a nice mid green color. 

My roots look snow white on all 4 plants. I was concerned about the 2" layer of rock wool on the top causing rot due to water retension, but the roots look great.
I'm all but certain that the roots are not causing the problem.
I'm not even sure there is a problem anymore, could it be that they are eating their fan leafs do to rapid growth? (I'm only 17 days flower from first pistils)

It also appears that the Bubba Kush (dark green one) is not having any issues, which could mean that I am underfeeding the larger plants but my ec is off the chart already. Base nutes I'm running 1.2 EC I add Sweet, multi enzym and root excelerator and I'm up to 2.5 EC

I do not recerculate, Drip to waste! My drips are running fine I use Canna Substra and there has not been any cloging. My Ph in is 5.6 my ph out is about 5.8 and I'm watching it like a hawk since my earlier ph problems.

Do I need to run stronger nutes due to my environment?

Here are some pics and if you need to know how I got here the journal is in my sig line.

I'm sorry about all the questions, I know you are bussy but I am clueless as to what is going on and you are the guy with the experience.
BTW, I have started your h2o2 maintenance program today 


Thanks Al!

Unity


----------



## dawolf (Sep 6, 2008)

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/106057-aero-cloning-roots.html


----------



## GypsyBush (Sep 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Sounds probable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, so from the top...


I will stay away from rockwool rooted clones from now on... it is very hard to remove it all...

Yeah! Gramp's axe or that old tennis shoe I keep re-gluing... I know, but experimenting has been FUN, what can I say...???

Thanks, Yeah there is some new root growth punching through the foam... Strong...

I will try my best to remove all browning and soft roots, I will also try to change the foam pieces as well...

So my Bloom juice sounds like an additive to an already established nutrient regime... if not what would be the purpose of such low nutrient content???

No baby lights for you huh...?!?!?! serious....!!!LOL

I am growing inside of the night stand with a BIG ASS FAN that can really move some air... If anything I may have too much ventilation causing the temps to be a little low...

I want to keep everything small so when I go back home (been in a hotel room in the BIG city for a while now, treating my broken ass leg), I can set up 4 units in the 2 door kitchen cabinet...
I figure the plants might triple in size... so 12 to 15 inches at harvest would be the goal....

Now to the good part...

A 250 Watt HPS on a cool tube with internal reflector at 3 to 6 inches from the closest plants... am I getting it???

I also should have noted that I live in an area that is very remote, and we must generate our own electricity, at a very high cost...

I don't know what the dollar figure is, but I can tell you I pay 4x more than people that are connected to the grid in the USA...

But at $600/oz WHEN it is available... and it is usually not... It makes it worth it...

How much I use depends on how much I hurt... usually an oz/28g will last me about 10 to 14 days... So I may be cutting it a little close...hummm...

Well, I will try to get all this stuff done quickly...
Thanks for your time!!!


Gypsy...


----------



## corral hollow kid (Sep 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> But then again, it could be a Hanna...


I bought Milwaukee meters...the waterproof pen style ec meter is GREAT! I did not get the waterproof pH meter...I wish I had! I really like the ec meter.

Don't like Hanna meters much?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

purpdaddy said:


> ok al. well your location explains it.any one of those stores on my previous post..you can get these by the crapload for just under 5.00USD
> left 45w 2900 lumens
> right 42w 2700 lumens


 Well, your location unfortunately doesn't explain why you can't tell the difference between 42, 45 % 150W. Most Americans (incl. moi) are smarter than that. Like I said, your $5, 150W CFL doesn't exist. Dang, I guess I get no sweet lovin' with a 150W CFL.  



Fman said:


> In the 2 week harvest thread you say you are getting 1/2 to 3/4 oz per plant. Somewhere in this thread I thought I read you are now getting 1 to 1/12 oz per plant . What did you do or change to increase your yield?


 I fixed a number of small problems (my errors, mostly) between then & now, but adding cooltubes to my 1000HPS bottles was the major improvement. Now the room stays spot on 25C +/-1C, had previously wandered as high as 28-29, even with ambient intake air at 23-25C. Significantly improved the yield. 



\x0D said:


> I am thinking about starting up some new moms from clones, My current moms just donated their 6th pass ( started from seed).


 It's like the Magic Pudding, innit? All the cuttings and mother plants you need, in perpetuity.  I've been propagating ST4 by cuttings since 2002.



> Because I am vegging under flouro, im not getting the 9", >5.5mm clones that I would really like to get, and my strike rate and time sucks too.


 Yep, maybe you have a 175MH or 250HPS in your future. 



> I am getting it dialed in, I number the plants, then use an alpha character to denote the pass of clone it is ,( e.g. "4F" is the 6th pass on plant 4.) so i can track what is working and what is not.


 And the way you dial it in is precisely as you're doing. Keeping track is hard to do, but that's exactly how you fix stuff like this.Keep after it.  



> So far round "D" ( which is where i swiched from gel to powder) has been the most successful,


 Someday I'll tell you about this w33d b4R0n who chided me for being uneducated and backward (said I was 'old school' ) because I believed the powders work better than the NEW NEW NEW Clonex gel.Oh, man, I crack me up.  



> but they are still pretty small clones. Im concerned that either my yeild will suck if i flower them at this stage with no veg time, or that I will have to suck it up and veg under hps for a few weeks ( too long inbetween harvest for my taste)


 Fuck it, flower 'em. They'll yield. It'll give you an interesting comparison point for stuff you do later down the track. 



> What do you think about tossing the old moms into the flowering cab?
> They are 16-17" on average, and I have around 40" from bottom of tray to light in the cab. Is there any disadvantage to doing so?


 No particular disadvantage to flowering your retiring mums other than they take up a lot of real estate and you don't have much. 



Return of the Spork said:


> I thought effective wattage didn't count, and that it was the true wattage that mattered?


 Absolutely right. The 'equivalent incandescent wattage' number is meaningless in our application.



Fman said:


> I just wanted to show $9.97 is not the same as $5.00


 And 42W/45W is not 150W!



unity said:


> My issue is that my plants are not holding on to their leafs, even though new growth looks perfect. All the bigger fan leafs start to yellow and die off.


 You will see plants in late flowering normally drop some of their lower fans. My mother plants also tend to drop some lower fans which are shaded by upper foliage. I'm not sure that's what's happening for you, notably in this pic, which has me kinda worried. The new growth looks good but those fans with yellowing blades are worrisome. If the new growth is OK, we'll ignore those.



> I run a controlled environment with co2 injection.


 Lucky you. 



> I do not vent during lights on, my co2 remains at 1500 -1700 during lights on. I obviously vent during lights off. A lot off guys vent 5 min. every 2 hours during lights on, is that necessary?


 If you're controlling your temp & RH with aircon and supplying CO2 from a tank, you really need never open the door to the op, much less vent every hour. 



> I had only one glitch with this grow, it was a ph issue during veg that caused a severe def. Aside from a root aphid infestion on the Bubba Kush when I got it from the dispensary. I thought that once it was corrected the plant would progress normal, am I wrong in assuming that? It appears almost like the plants are still deficient, but the new growth has a nice mid green color.


 Aphids don't normally attack roots. They're sap suckers and they normally attack leaves or stems. As long as the new growth is looking good, it's off to the races. 



> My roots look snow white on all 4 plants. I was concerned about the 2" layer of rock wool on the top causing rot due to water retension, but the roots look great.


 yes, they DO look good. Well done. 



> I'm all but certain that the roots are not causing the problem.
> I'm not even sure there is a problem anymore, could it be that they are eating their fan leafs do to rapid growth? (I'm only 17 days flower from first pistils)


 yeah, if the roots were implicated, you'd see poor vigor all over the plant. It's normal to see a few fans drop late in flowering, I hope that's the case for you. 



> It also appears that the Bubba Kush (dark green one) is not having any issues, which could mean that I am underfeeding the larger plants but my ec is off the chart already. Base nutes I'm running 1.2 EC I add Sweet, multi enzym and root excelerator and I'm up to 2.5 EC


 It'd be nice if you could quote your nute strength in ppm instead of EC. 1.2EC = 840ppm, 2.5 is 1750 (getting a bit strong there). I'd delete the "sweet, multi enzym and root excelerator" on cause of magic saucery. Stick with nutes and H2O2 50% grade at 1ml/L, pH adjustment as needed.


> I do not recerculate, Drip to waste! My drips are running fine I use Canna Substra and there has not been any cloging. My Ph in is 5.6 my ph out is about 5.8 and I'm watching it like a hawk since my earlier ph problems.


 ok, works for me.



> Do I need to run stronger nutes due to my environment?


 No, I'd hold them to 1400ppm. 



> BTW, I have started your h2o2 maintenance program today


 The plants will thank you. 

All looks pretty good except for that one plant, but if the new growth on that one remains deep green, she'll be right. 



dawolf said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/106057-aero-cloning-roots.html


What's the temp in the root chamber? WHen you get pix of the roots of plants with the nodes that popped up into roots quickly but then seemed to halt, let me know. 



corral hollow kid said:


> I bought Milwaukee meters...the waterproof pen style ec meter is GREAT! I did not get the waterproof pH meter...I wish I had! I really like the ec meter.
> 
> Don't like Hanna meters much?


I hope for everyone's' sake that Hanna (and Milwaukee) meters are better than they used to was...  Many moons ago, I was buying Hanna pHep meters. They were not waterproof and used screw-compression connectors to tie the pH electrode to the meter ckt bd. This non-waterproof pH meter is still sold by Hanna.

Viewed as a BSEE with >30 years in the field (no old fart comments, k, I know I'm old enough to be most of y'all's father ), when I consider a damp, corrosive environment where a connector is handling a very small signal, I can't think of a WORSE electronic design choice. The Hanna meters I used to buy are now sold as 'disposable' and are very cheap, under $20 these days. No design changes to the meter, just a lower price and a 'disposable' label on the box to lower the buyer's expectations.  I always thought they were disposable, well before they put that spec on the pkg.


----------



## BigBudBalls (Sep 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Viewed as a BSEE with >30 years in the field (no old fart comments, k, I know I'm old enough to be most of y'all's father ), when I consider a damp, corrosive environment where a connector is handling a very small signal, I can't think of a WORSE electronic design choice. The Hanna meters I used to buy are now sold as 'disposable' and are very cheap, under $20 these days. No design changes to the meter, just a lower price and a 'disposable' label on the box to lower the buyer's expectations.  I always thought they were disposable, well before they put that spec on the pkg.


I'm using a Milwaukee tri-meter. The probe is connected via a DIN connector (I'd prefer a more positive connector then the tension fit of a DIN) and houses both the EC/TDS sensor and pH sensor. The probe is claimed to be waterproof. So if one goes, gotta replace both. Down side on the backend of buying.

Planning on working on a full time monitoring/adjusting system. Just hunting down dosing pumps at a good price.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> I'm using a Milwaukee tri-meter. The probe is connected via a DIN connector (I'd prefer a more positive connector then the tension fit of a DIN) and houses both the EC/TDS sensor and pH sensor. The probe is claimed to be waterproof. So if one goes, gotta replace both. Down side on the backend of buying.


Milwaukee's higher-end meters are not too bad. Their pen meters, especially the cheapest, don't have a good longevity reputation. 

I prefer separate pH & TDS meters precisely for the reason you specify. The pH electrode part of the combination probe will last 2 years. I'd suggest buying a spare when you get to about the 22 month mark, but probably not before in case the meter carks it prematurely.



> Planning on working on a full time monitoring/adjusting system. Just hunting down dosing pumps at a good price.


That sounds interesting. The way I usually see it done is with peristaltic pumps, those which use a rotating cam to squeeze a piece of rubber or plastic tubing to move the solution. Those can be fairly precise and reliable. I'd like one for dosing my tanks with H2O2, 125ml every 3-4 days. Let me know what you come up with if you don't mind, please!


----------



## BigBudBalls (Sep 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> That sounds interesting. The way I usually see it done is with peristaltic pumps, those which use a rotating cam to squeeze a piece of rubber or plastic tubing to move the solution. Those can be fairly precise and reliable. I'd like one for dosing my tanks with H2O2, 125ml every 3-4 days. Let me know what you come up with if you don't mind, please!


When I was a machinist, we made those pumps. Used a LOT in medical use. And the exact thing I was thinking of.

Now I do have a mill and lathe in the garage.........


----------



## purpdaddy (Sep 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Well, your location unfortunately doesn't explain why you can't tell the difference between 42, 45 % 150W. Most Americans (incl. moi) are smarter than that. Like I said, your $5, 150W CFL doesn't exist. Dang, I guess I get no sweet lovin' with a 150W CFL.
> 
> 
> ok Al b fagged..listen. take that joint out your dicksucker and take heed once in a while..Ph in the 8's come the fuck on.


----------



## purpdaddy (Sep 6, 2008)

im done with you.i thought you were cool and werent so quick to shoot someone down and i guess jorge cervantes knows nothing of what he is saying


----------



## VictorVIcious (Sep 6, 2008)

Old dishwashing machine dispensing equipment can be accurate, work with titration levels to set dispensing amounts. You might be able to hook something like that up on a timer?? VV


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

purpdaddy said:


> ok Al b fagged..listen. take that joint out your dicksucker and take heed once in a while..Ph in the 8's come the fuck on.


Well, that's me told.  I'm crushed. The moment you accused me of being gay, you instantly became right. Works all the time. 



purpdaddy said:


> i thought you were cool and werent so quick to shoot someone down and i guess jorge cervantes knows nothing of what he is saying


Oh, you're right- again. I should softpedal w33d b4R0ns, being mindful of their fragile feelings and brittle egos. When they speak nonsense, I will build or maintain their self esteem with any corrective data because they have an emotional investment in being right, no matter how little they know. 

_*Not. *_ 

If you want someone to be nice instead of informative, go see your local preacher or have a cuppa tea with your mum. 



> im done with you.


Thank fuck for that! Not a second too soon.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> When I was a machinist, we made those pumps. Used a LOT in medical use. And the exact thing I was thinking of.


GMTA. 



> Now I do have a mill and lathe in the garage.........


oh, you lucky bastard.  I have a shithouse Chinese lathe and no mill. The Bridgeport mill I want needs 3 phase and I live so far out past the black stump that a dynamotor type 3-ph supply is required.



VictorVIcious said:


> Old dishwashing machine dispensing equipment can be accurate, work with titration levels to set dispensing amounts. You might be able to hook something like that up on a timer?? VV


oh, good one. As long as it's not the sort that depends on venturi action of water through a tube to shift the soap soln, that could work a treat.


----------



## Fman (Sep 6, 2008)

Al- Thank you. Im using a home made cooltube (pyrex bread tube) and it helped my temps too. My room is still on the border at 82-85f, I need to get a larger exaust fan. Once again thanks. Oh by the way, I got a bunch of used cfl's, if your that horny, J/K lololololololol


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

Fman said:


> Al- Thank you. Im using a home made cooltube (pyrex bread tube) and it helped my temps too. My room is still on the border at 82-85f, I need to get a larger exaust fan. Once again thanks.


Excellent, great to hear it. Perhaps there's some throughflow efficiency improvements you can find to make the ventilation work better. Straight, short duct where possible, etc. An intake blower helps a LOT. Intake blower/s should shift about 80-90% of the exhaust blower's CFM capacity. Keeps the room at negative pressure ref/ atmosphere, so all air leaks leak inward, making all air leaving the grow go through the exhaust blower. 



> Oh by the way, I got a bunch of used cfl's, if your that horny, J/K lololololololol


(Barry White voice) ohhhhhhhhhhhh _*baby*_, don't you be teezin yo daddy like that.


----------



## corral hollow kid (Sep 6, 2008)

Hi Al B!

Here are some updated pics of the clones. I have had them home fore a week. I had a pH incident (too high...6.9) and I think some nutes got locked out. I have corrected the problem and I am seeing improvement. I just pruned off all the large fan leaves that were damaged. Did I get too aggressive with the pruning?

I am full hydro, e&f, flooding every 2 hours - last flood 2 hours before lights off, no water a night. Running 600w HPS, 18/6 veg cycle, CO2, temps range from 67 at night to 87 during the day. H2O2 added as directed. 2 large air discs & recirculation pump in nutrient tank. Ionic nutes, ec 1.7 (1190 ppm - per the calculator in a previous post), pH 5.8...but wants to climb all the time.

Why does my pH want to clime all the time? Is it something about the grow rocks? did I need to soak them in pH water like I did to the rockwool? I just rinsed the crap out of them in tap water. I think I have the pathogens under control, bu the pH still wanders up up up!

I am using Earth Juice - Natural Down for pH adjustments.

Thanks Al!!!

ps - I'll keep working with the color correction in my camera. This is the best I can do for now under HPS lighting.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 6, 2008)

corral hollow kid said:


> Hi Al B!
> 
> Here are some updated pics of the clones. I have had them home fore a week. I had a pH incident (too high...6.9) and I think some nutes got locked out. I have corrected the problem and I am seeing improvement. I just pruned off all the large fan leaves that were damaged. Did I get too aggressive with the pruning?


Nope, all looks fine. 



> I am full hydro, e&f, flooding every 2 hours - last flood 2 hours before lights off, no water a night. Running 600w HPS, 18/6 veg cycle, CO2, temps range from 67 at night to 87 during the day.


All good until we get to the temp. 87 is too hot. You're looking for 24-26C (75-78.8F).


> H2O2 added as directed. 2 large air discs & recirculation pump in nutrient tank. Ionic nutes, ec 1.7 (1190 ppm - per the calculator in a previous post),


good, good, good. 


> pH 5.8...but wants to climb all the time.
> 
> 
> Why does my pH want to clime all the time? Is it something about the grow rocks? did I need to soak them in pH water like I did to the rockwool? I just rinsed the crap out of them in tap water. I think I have the pathogens under control, bu the pH still wanders up up up!


How far is it jumping after you have corrected the tank, over what period of time?



> I am using Earth Juice - Natural Down for pH adjustments.





> Earth Juice uses citric acid to naturally lower pH


Crystal form citric acid (C6H8O7) is no more or less 'natural' than a phosphoric acid solution, which is sold as 'pHDown' in most hydro shops. Upside with the P based type is that the plants can use the phosphorus, particularly in flowering plants. You can even get nitric acid based pHDown for vegging plants, as it gives a boost of N, but the P based sort will do for vegging plants as well.



> Thanks Al!!!


no worries 


> ps - I'll keep working with the color correction in my camera. This is the best I can do for now under HPS lighting.


That'd be great if you can. If you can't, you can shoot pics just before lights-on or just after lights off and use a flash and perhaps some fill light from a workshop CFL lamp or something. Should render the colours more accurately in cases where that information is important to capture in the pic.


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## Fman (Sep 6, 2008)

AL- once again thanks for the input. I have a 200cfm intake on a 10"X20' duct from under the house, for cooler air. The exaust is 8" and only about 2' out the roof of my room, the fan on it is about 350cfm's. My whole room is 224 cu. ft.. The 400hps has its own 171 cfm fan. The 250 mh is tied to the room exhaust. Im sure if I wasnt so cheap and bought a bigger exhaust fan all my heat probs would be gone. Or maybe switch to running my lights at night. Too lazy to make the switch.


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 87 is too hot. You're looking for 24-26C (75-78.8F).


Ok...I am using a Green Air Products - Atmospheric Controller model CT-DH-3P. It is a pretty basic unit. I think I need a bigger exhaust fan. I know it moves air and the air flow in the room is DEFINITELY negative when the fan is running...however. Warm outside temperatures have made it difficult to keep temps below 85 degrees. I'll make that a priority. It'll get easier over the next few weeks as winter sets in and it starts snowing here.



> How far is it jumping after you have corrected the tank, over what period of time?


My light cycle is on 6am - off 12am. From 12am to 6am the pH stays very stable. I flood every 2 hours beginning at 6am. This morning at 5:00 am the pH wa 5.8. At 9am (after 2 feedings) the pH was 6.1. I corrected it back to 5.8.

I just checked the tank at 5pm (after 4 more flood cycles). The pH was 6.2. I am correcting back to 5.8. 

I was hoping at some point I would be able to leave and get groceries without worrying about my plants being damaged when I return...maybe I need better H2O.

No city water here. Straight from the spring to the house. Good water, most of the time. But the pH varies from 7.0 to 8.2 out of the tap.


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## BigBudBalls (Sep 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> oh, you lucky bastard.  I have a shithouse Chinese lathe and no mill. The Bridgeport mill I want needs 3 phase and I live so far out past the black stump that a dynamotor type 3-ph supply is required.


You can make a 3 phase converter with a 3 phase motor. Forgot the particulars, but basically you back feed one leg and toss on a pull start.

Or just change the motor to what you got. (cheaper overall)


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 6, 2008)

Fman said:


> AL- once again thanks for the input.


I second that motion!!! 



> Im sure if I wasnt so cheap and bought a bigger exhaust fan all my heat probs would be gone. Or maybe switch to running my lights at night. Too lazy to make the switch.


Me 2! Maybe I should change over and run my lights at night...hmmm. 

Hey Al...If I wanted to change my light cycle (like to have the light go on at 6pm instead of on at 6am) and I am 18/6 now, would I just leave them on at the end of 18 until I wanted to end the new cycle and turn the light off? or will that be like giving them LSD? make em all trippy and shit!

AND...when it's time to change the light cycle to 12/12, can I just set a day and go "zap" your on 12/12? or do I need to do it like we used to and _slowly_ change the light cycle over?


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## Fman (Sep 6, 2008)

Corral- Im not Al, but the person that suggested the light change to me, told me I should do it gradually one hour a day. Turn em on an hour later, turn em off an hour later, The whole thing will take 12 days. Thats why I havent done it yet. Sounds like a lot of work. But melting my plants isnt much fun either.


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## Chumlie (Sep 6, 2008)

When leaves curl under is that from to much nute are can it be from nute lock? Is there any case where you could have dif. in one (zinc) and to much in another causing curling under?


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 6, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> When leaves curl under is that from to much nute are can it be from nute lock? Is there any case where you could have dif. in one (zinc) and to much in another causing curling under?


Hey Al...Can high pH cause this?


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## Chumlie (Sep 6, 2008)

Hey Al this is off the wall question about geting the ph down. YOu think lemon juice would work, are would I kill the plants?


----------



## kirby (Sep 6, 2008)

I have a clone I took from a flowering plant, in which I cut it at a 45 deg angle, and then split some of the stem. I also scraped away some of the stem, with some scissors so its not as thick. Its now sitting in a solution of b1, and some superthrive, along with some rooting hormone. Should I let it sit in this solution for a few days, or should I apply root powder on the cutting and plant it in soil?

Also, with whatever one I do, should I foliar feed it? Plants can absorb some nutrients through their leaves but not all of them... will it be able to absorb the plant hormones in superthrive, and b1 vitamins thru the leaves? If I add other things to the foliar feed mix such as fish emulsion, molasses, or some other vegging ferts, will this discourage or slow root growth / or how long it takes to grow them?

Sorry, this is the first clone i've tried to grow :[, and i'm totally amazed at this thread you have going here! I can't beleive you have the patience to answer all these questions, question after question. You must be smoking some good weed. Thank you for all the help youve given us!


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 6, 2008)

corral hollow kid said:


> Hey Al...Can high pH cause this?


I ask because my plants exhibited signs of nutrient lock, and some signs of burning, along with some chlorosis. Almost every symptom in the diagnosis guide. My pH had gotten too high (like 7.2) and it caused all kinds of funky stuff to happen!!!


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## xxtoadxx (Sep 6, 2008)

hey al b.. i love ur grows and ive been tryin to get something going to imitate yours, but its going slow when the hydro guy tried to tell me it was 4,200 for everything... i know i could get it half the price online / building myself a few things. anyways... question for you, he gave me a business card cuz i told him i had some seeds i was planning on planting and he asked me who i was going to have sex them, i said myself, and anyways the business card is for some guy who supposedly genetically can test a leaf from a tiny plant in veg, lets say just a sample leaf he was telling me. spoof? he says its 100%.... crazy.. he says that way u can pull them and not waste light on them to grow em out before flowering ya know? whats ur thoughts?


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## fshields1 (Sep 6, 2008)

hey al, i know that you are more geared towards the hydro buy i was woundering if you knew of any ways to kill fungus gnats and thier larvae in soil. i havent seen any effects to my plants yet but they are every where and when i just transplanted a few of my smaller plants the larvae were all through the soil


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 7, 2008)

Fman said:


> Or maybe switch to running my lights at night. Too lazy to make the switch.


 I'd certainly try that first. Everything else sounds like it's well in order. 



corral hollow kid said:


> Me 2! Maybe I should change over and run my lights at night...hmmm.
> 
> Hey Al...If I wanted to change my light cycle (like to have the light go on at 6pm instead of on at 6am) and I am 18/6 now, would I just leave them on at the end of 18 until I wanted to end the new cycle and turn the light off? or will that be like giving them LSD? make em all trippy and shit!
> 
> AND...when it's time to change the light cycle to 12/12, can I just set a day and go "zap" your on 12/12? or do I need to do it like we used to and _slowly_ change the light cycle over?


 Switching the sked for flowering plants is as easy as giving them a long 'night' and beginning the new sked. If you're on 8a-8p now, leave the lights off from 8p to 8p the next day when you can begin your new 8p-8a sked. Switching veg plants is even easier. Just leave them on 24/0 and start the new cycle at any time after they have had at least 18H of light. 



corral hollow kid said:


> Ok...I am using a Green Air Products - Atmospheric Controller model CT-DH-3P. It is a pretty basic unit.


 It could use the ability to measure CO2 concentration, which this model doesn't seem to have. 



> I think I need a bigger exhaust fan. I know it moves air and the air flow in the room is DEFINITELY negative when the fan is running...however. Warm outside temperatures have made it difficult to keep temps below 85 degrees. I'll make that a priority. It'll get easier over the next few weeks as winter sets in and it starts snowing here.


 How close does the room air temps stay to the ambient intake air temp?



> My light cycle is on 6am - off 12am. From 12am to 6am the pH stays very stable. I flood every 2 hours beginning at 6am. This morning at 5:00 am the pH wa 5.8. At 9am (after 2 feedings) the pH was 6.1. I corrected it back to 5.8.


 hmm, ok. When was the last dose of H2O2?



> I was hoping at some point I would be able to leave and get groceries without worrying about my plants being damaged when I return...maybe I need better H2O.


 No, this isn't a water quality issue. More likely, you may need to apply more H2O2. If there's a lot of pathogen material in the tanks, all the H2O2 may have been reacted and the pathogens are rebounding. Hit 'em again. 



> No city water here. Straight from the spring to the house. Good water, most of the time. But the pH varies from 7.0 to 8.2 out of the tap.


 Your pH swings less than that of my muni tap water (7.1-8.5). Have you gotten a recent analysis of your bore water? Your only real concern is salinity. 



BigBudBalls said:


> You can make a 3 phase converter with a 3 phase motor. Forgot the particulars, but basically you back feed one leg and toss on a pull start.


 Yes, that's doable but if I went that route, I think I'd opt for the commercially made dynamotor unit, which starts itself. It's just such a crude way to do it, tho. I'm old enough to remember vacuum tube mobile 2-way radios which used a dynamotor (for the non-electron-junkies here, a dynamotor is a voltage converter- it's a motor which runs on the easily available voltage, which then spins a generator that makes the voltage you want) to make a 250V B+ from 12V, at the cost of a massssssive load on the electrical system. It's a hugely inefficient way to do the job. You'd think there'd be a cost effective solid-state inverter device around to do the 3&#934; conversion. I'll keep sniffing.



> Or just change the motor to what you got. (cheaper overall)


 Could well be. I can afford the mill, got room for it, it's just the lack of 3&#934;. I'll check into the cost of replacing the motor with a 1&#934; unit. Thanks for the suggestion. 



Chumlie said:


> When leaves curl under is that from to much nute are can it be from nute lock? Is there any case where you could have dif. in one (zinc) and to much in another causing curling under?


 Usually when I see leaves curling under, it's a nute burn. However, the cause of the nute burn can be a pH error that locks out all but the N. 







Any chance you shot high, like 7.0? That looks like it would do it. 

Get the pH right (5.8 ) and verify the nutes are at 1400.



corral hollow kid said:


> Hey Al...Can high pH cause this?


 dingdingding. 



xxtoadxx said:


> hey al b.. i love ur grows and ive been tryin to get something going to imitate yours, but its going slow when the hydro guy tried to tell me it was 4,200 for everything... i know i could get it half the price online / building myself a few things.


I think I'd deal with this guy only if I absolutely had to. 



> anyways... question for you, he gave me a business card cuz i told him i had some seeds i was planning on planting and he asked me who i was going to have sex them, i said myself, and anyways the business card is for some guy who supposedly genetically can test a leaf from a tiny plant in veg, lets say just a sample leaf he was telling me. spoof? he says its 100%.... crazy.. he says that way u can pull them and not waste light on them to grow em out before flowering ya know? whats ur thoughts?


Correction- stay as far away as possible from this hydro shop guy & his mate who claims to sex plants with leaves. That's a crock of shit. I'd be *hugely* suspicious as to what he's _*really *_up to. 



fshields1 said:


> hey al, i know that you are more geared towards the hydro buy i was woundering if you knew of any ways to kill fungus gnats and thier larvae in soil.


Try some Gnatrol. Your garden shop or hydro store should have it.


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## xxtoadxx (Sep 7, 2008)

lol <3 the response and thanks for the quickness =) so... 4x600 hps, 4x 3x3 trays ebb n flow flood 3 times a day and ill be good? im going to use the CANNA line of nutes, i heard really great things about it


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## fshields1 (Sep 7, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Try some Gnatrol. Your garden shop or hydro store should have it.


 there are no hydro shops around where i live. iv heard of people putting sand on top of the soil?? any advice there?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 7, 2008)

Sand may act as a barrier if you don't now have gnats, but you already do. A barrier will not really help. An better barrier option is to drop the pot in a knee-hi nylon stocking and put a twist-tie around the cuff of the stocking, where it meets the stem.

Check garden shops, many have Gnatrol.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 7, 2008)

xxtoadxx said:


> lol <3 the response and thanks for the quickness =) so... 4x600 hps, 4x 3x3 trays ebb n flow flood 3 times a day and ill be good?


Sounds like a plan, Stan. 


> im going to use the CANNA line of nutes, i heard really great things about it


I've used Canna nutes for about 10 years, always been happy with them.


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## xxtoadxx (Sep 7, 2008)

oooo one more question, i looked what he charged me for resevoirs...$126/ea x 4 40 gallon resevoirs... do i need that big and is there a cheaper alternative?


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## fshields1 (Sep 7, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Sand may act as a barrier if you don't now have gnats, but you already do. A barrier will not really help. An better barrier option is to drop the pot in a knee-hi nylon stocking and put a twist-tie around the cuff of the stocking, where it meets the stem.
> 
> Check garden shops, many have Gnatrol.


 
the only thig that the garden shops around here have for gnat killer is neem oil, but from what iv read that is for spraying not use in the soil. ill gige the nylon thing a try though. thanks


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 7, 2008)

xxtoadxx said:


> oooo one more question, i looked what he charged me for resevoirs...$126/ea x 4 40 gallon resevoirs... do i need that big and is there a cheaper alternative?


About 5L per plant is needed. You can use inexpensive plastic storage boxes/tubs from the local dollar shop as a cheaper alternative. That's what I use. My 125L tubs were $20/ea (and I thought _that_ was stiff). But hey, they even have wheels.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 7, 2008)

fshields1 said:


> the only thig that the garden shops around here have for gnat killer is neem oil, but from what iv read that is for spraying not use in the soil. ill gige the nylon thing a try though. thanks


If you already have gnats in the rootmass, putting a barrier on will not help. Barriers must be installed before they have a chance to colonise, right after potting up is the time. 

You now need an insecticide that kills the larvae. Order Gnatrol online if you have to, got to be many online hydro suppliers you could order from. 

Get some yellow sticky card traps as well, this will help control the adult numbers to break their reproduction cycle.


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## xxtoadxx (Sep 7, 2008)

well im gonna have 6 plants per 3x3 tray in 3.5 gallon square pots full of hydroton with just the rockwool kickin it.... so a 30 gal should be plenty?


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## kirby (Sep 7, 2008)

kirby said:


> I have a clone I took from a flowering plant, in which I cut it at a 45 deg angle, and then split some of the stem. I also scraped away some of the stem, with some scissors so its not as thick. Its now sitting in a solution of b1, and some superthrive, along with some rooting hormone. Should I let it sit in this solution for a few days, or should I apply root powder on the cutting and plant it in soil?
> 
> Also, with whatever one I do, should I foliar feed it? Plants can absorb some nutrients through their leaves but not all of them... will it be able to absorb the plant hormones in superthrive, and b1 vitamins thru the leaves? If I add other things to the foliar feed mix such as fish emulsion, molasses, or some other vegging ferts, will this discourage or slow root growth / or how long it takes to grow them?
> 
> Sorry, this is the first clone i've tried to grow :[, and i'm totally amazed at this thread you have going here! I can't beleive you have the patience to answer all these questions, question after question. You must be smoking some good weed. Thank you for all the help youve given us!


any advice?


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## Eharmony420 (Sep 7, 2008)

hey al, trying to decide what hydro system to use next. im using 4 pot bubbler and love it for this my first grow. i plan eight so maybe want something a little more complicated, maybe aeroponic or drip or flood. What do yu think, also i am using a 400 wat mh/hps can that do eight, curious


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 7, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Hey Al this is off the wall question about geting the ph down. YOu think lemon juice would work, are would I kill the plants?


I don't think it would kill the plant but you'd be introducing organic matter (fruit pulp) into the system, which could either induce or aid pathogen problems or would consume some of the H2O2 just by being dead organic matter in the system. Just use the right stuff, pHDown is the cheapest sauce in the hydro shop. 



kirby said:


> should I apply root powder on the cutting and plant it in soil?


Yep. 



> Also, with whatever one I do, should I foliar feed it?


Foliar feeding can be effective but if sprayed too often, plants can develop fungal probs. 



> If I add other things to the foliar feed mix such as fish emulsion, molasses, or some other vegging ferts, will this discourage or slow root growth / or how long it takes to grow them?


No, the roots will develop as they usually do. However, if your foliar feeding is successful, you might develop more foliar mass than the roots may be able to support. 

If you're going to foliar feed with fish emulsion, I'm glad it's your place & not mine.  

Keep several metres between molasses and any cannabis plant. Plants can not use sugars as a nutrient. Sugars are good food for insects and pathogens, useless to plants. 



corral hollow kid said:


> My pH had gotten too high (like 7.2) and it caused all kinds of funky stuff to happen!!!


Well spotted, thanks for making the suggestion.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 7, 2008)

xxtoadxx said:


> well im gonna have 6 plants per 3x3 tray in 3.5 gallon square pots full of hydroton with just the rockwool kickin it.... so a 30 gal should be plenty?


Why so few plants and the huge pots? If you want to do SoG, your pots can be much smaller so you can get a lot more plants in. I have 23 x 175mm x 175mm pots in my 900x900mm trays, The tanks are 125L for each tray. 


Eharmony420 said:


> hey al, trying to decide what hydro system to use next. im using 4 pot bubbler and love it for this my first grow. i plan eight so maybe want something a little more complicated, maybe aeroponic or drip or flood. What do yu think, also i am using a 400 wat mh/hps can that do eight, curious


You want something MORE complicated? You _*obviously *_are not smoking enough _*dope*_. 

Simpler is gooder. Tray based flood systems with pots of absorbent (RW, fytocell, perlite) or semiabsorbent (pellets) media are no brainers, can't clog, are flexible with plant numbers and beyond easy to maintain.







Media which supports frequent flooding allows more oxygenated nutes to be circulate through the roots, allowing productivity rivalling more complex methods.


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## GypsyBush (Sep 7, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> A small grow like yours is a good candidate for 250HPS in a cooltube with an internal reflector and a separate exhaust fan. it won't be covering a very large area.


Hey Al, there is not a cool tube to be had here in town...
Can I use one of those oil lamp glass replacements to build my own, or will the non-cylindrical shape affect the light negatively ...?

Thanks!

Gypsy...


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 7, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> Hey Al, there is not a cool tube to be had here in town...
> Can I use one of those oil lamp glass replacements to build my own, or will the non-cylindrical shape affect the light negatively ...?


Hurricane lamp globes are not the most optically perfect and their shape would do odd things to the airflow. 

Head for ebay and search for a Pyrex Bake-A-Round tube. It's a roughly 120mm Pyrex cylinder about 400mm long. They are no longer made but there's lots of them around on ebay for some reason. 



Lucky you, I have some around I can photo for ya.  

I bought a couple of them intending to make cooltubes for my 1000W HPS bottles, paid about $8-10 each. The Bake-A-Round is long enough for a 1000 (barely) but there's only about 10mm clearance between the bulge in the middle of the HPS bottle and the Bake-A-Round inner diameter. I didn't think there'd be sufficient airflow for a 1000, so I wound up buying commercially made 150mm dia cooltubes with aluminum collars bonded on the ends, good for fitting ducts with hose clamps without fear of breaking the tube. 

The Bake-A-Round would make a pretty good cooltube for a 400 or a 600, tho. Lots of ppl are using them, they work a treat. They require about 200CFM of airflow to work well.

'course, if you can be bothered to buy something off ebay, you may as well go to an online hydro shop and get the usual 150mm commercially made cooltubes. Should be $50-60 each for 150mm x 400mm.


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## Chumlie (Sep 7, 2008)

I probably should have not done this but I mix in some miriacle grow to get my ph down. At the end of the day Im going to change the tank to my eveporated water with just miriacle grow in it so there want be any burning. I also added last night tbl spoon of h202 for every gallon trying to kill the organic ferts.

Im just woried about switching for organic to inorganic could that hurt the plants?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 7, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> I probably should have not done this but I mix in some miriacle grow to get my ph down. At the end of the day Im going to change the tank to my eveporated water with just miriacle grow in it so there want be any burning. I also added last night tbl spoon of h202 for every gallon trying to kill the organic ferts.
> 
> Im just woried about switching for organic to inorganic could that hurt the plants?



You're right, you shouldn't have done this. Miracle grow is not a hydroponic nutrient. 

Get some proper nutes and use them per instructions. 

If you have problems with this grow, you can't honestly expect me to be able to help you if you go off and do stuff like this.


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## unity (Sep 7, 2008)

Al, thanks as always answering all my worries!! I really value what you are doing!


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## Old in the Way (Sep 7, 2008)

Hey Al,

Couple quick questions in regards to my ambitious grow.

My plan had been to wait for preflowers in order to allow my future mums max development prior to the first batch of clones being taken. My understanding is that under an 18/6 light schedule i could see preflowers by the 4th wk of veg time, which is not much longer than when they would be cloneable both for sexing and flowering. Will it be faster for me to clone for sex as soon as the parents are ready to cut or is there an advantage to wait for sexual maturity to sex and then take clones from more mature mums-other than the obvious increase in number of cuttings i will be able to take. 
Is 4 weeks unrealistic for preflowers? I have seen some claims that say 5-6 wks from other threads.

Also, everything is going well with he exception of the initial stretching that occured from the overwatering during germination-there are only 4 or 5 that have ended up real leggy. Since that occured to plants that are ultimately going to be maintained as parents will this recorded error be erased by the proper cultivation of the clones taken to flower? Thus erasing any penalty i may have experienced in the yield?? 

Thanks again for your expert guidance.


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## xxtoadxx (Sep 7, 2008)

al b. i have 5 medical cards, which allows me for 24 flowering / 12 immature. so im trying to do a mini rotation like your harvest every 2 weeks with what i have. unless u have a better idea? 30 plants veg to flower? i dunno..


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## gvega187 (Sep 7, 2008)

Al, i have a few questions about container sizing.

I Found some 2 gallon (8L) buckets at local store. They are about 7" x 7" similar to your pots I believe. Does this sound about right? 


My flood table only allows me to flood the bottom 5 inches of that pot. Do I just make sure that the water hits the bottom of the starter plug when flooding? 

Tested out my flood cycle today and it took about 15 mins to flood the tray with cheap pump like you use. Should I step up to 150-200 GPH? Thought u used the tiny 50-80 gph ones. 

Much appreciated as always MR FUCT


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## xxtoadxx (Sep 7, 2008)

p.s al b. my hydro guy was selling me 800 gph sub pumps.... are those too big?


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 7, 2008)

Al, I have to say Thank You again! You are GREAT to take the time to sit down and help all of us who are trying to figure out this really simple hobby. I feel like I owe you somehow....



Al B. Fuct said:


> Switching the sked for flowering plants is as easy as giving them a long 'night' and beginning the new sked. If you're on 8a-8p now, leave the lights off from 8p to 8p the next day when you can begin your new 8p-8a sked. Switching veg plants is even easier. Just leave them on 24/0 and start the new cycle at any time after they have had at least 18H of light.


 Thanks...I was wondering about that!



> It could use the ability to measure CO2 concentration, which this model doesn't seem to have.


No it does not have that ability. I wish it did. It does a GREAT job at humidity control...unable to tell about temp control yet.



> How close does the room air temps stay to the ambient intake air temp?


Within about 3 to 4 degrees F...what's that, like 1 or 2 deg C?



> hmm, ok. When was the last dose of H2O2?


On Sept 4...but I began to smell that odor in the tank yesterday (Sept 6) and last night I had a MAJOR pathogen outbreak. pH was 7.8 this morning. The H2O was very cloudy and icky! I gave them a 5ml/L dose...again. Damn!

There is a lot of buildup...of pathogens I am guessing, in the bottom of all the flood pots. There is a fair amount of buildup, but less in the controller pot. I am sure there is a fair amount in the tank. _ Question:_ *Should I be concerned about getting this crap out of the buckets & tank? or should I just kill it all off and keep reapplying the H2O2 until I can get between cycles and clean out the system???*



> No, this isn't a water quality issue. More likely, you may need to apply more H2O2. If there's a lot of pathogen material in the tanks, all the H2O2 may have been reacted and the pathogens are rebounding. Hit 'em again.


Damn you're good!



> Your pH swings less than that of my muni tap water (7.1-8.5). Have you gotten a recent analysis of your bore water? Your only real concern is salinity.


I have the H2O report around here somewhere...damn I need to find that! I am sure that salinity is not a problem here.



> Any chance you shot high, like 7.0? That looks like it would do it.


That is exactly what happened to me...pH too high due to pathogens!!!



> Correction- stay as far away as possible from this hydro shop guy & his mate who claims to sex plants with leaves. That's a crock of shit. I'd be *hugely* suspicious as to what he's _*really *_up to.


Think about it...if you bring him a small piece of growing marijuana, what have you just told him??? Bad idea!!!

Thanks again Al!!!


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## xxtoadxx (Sep 7, 2008)

yes, but im under the legal limit, im a patient, and he even gave me lil sample bags.... weird... i thought so too. he also gave me a guys number for diablo clones i called that and it gave me some other guys name on the voicemail than what he told me... i didnt call him again lol. u think my hydro guy is shady? i should stay away? id rather buy thru htg anyways.... WAY better prices imo.


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## gvega187 (Sep 7, 2008)

also 1 more quik question:

Since switching from 4 x 4 to 3' x 3' I have noticed I may not need the same size rez. (mine is huge)

Unfortunately botanicare does not provide a total volume capacity of the tray. What size rez have you found to be adequate?


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## Fman (Sep 7, 2008)

AL here are my diy cool tubes , Bought them on ebay 2 for $25 . Also spaceing wise do you think 6- 152mm pots in a 420x610 tray will be crowding? That should work out to 6" pots in a 16"x 24" tray about 6" centers.


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## kirby (Sep 7, 2008)

Great, thanks for the tips! However, isnt the CarboLoad nutrient from Advanced Nutrients basically Unsulphered Molasses? If you mix water with molasses, and let it ferment for a few days with plenty of oxygen, it should break down to a form where the plants can use it along with boosting microoganisms in your soil, such as if you use organic soil and it has mycorrize in it, or such. Some of my plants have never looked greener and buds tasted nicer because of organics 

After putting the clone in the liquid solution of Water, B1, SuperThrive, and tad bit of rooting powder it looks exceptionally good today, compared to what it was. Now, when I take it out of the water, I should just dip it in the rooting powder, and plant it in moist soil? In my case, I use a mix of 40% perlite and 60% super organic soil, with some additives like lime and guanos. Should I keep the soil moist at all times, or will that wash away the rooting powder?

thanks again al!
i bet with the 98 pages of information within this topic, a whole grow faw & book could be written! haha


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 7, 2008)

unity said:


> Al, thanks as always answering all my worries!! I really value what you are doing!


 Thanks. Hope I'm able to help you make it sit up and bark. 



Old in the Way said:


> My plan had been to wait for preflowers in order to allow my future mums max development prior to the first batch of clones being taken.


 Max development isn't your concern at this time. You need to raise your seedlings (usually) for about 6-8wks under veg cycle light before they will show preflowers. No sense in doing any cuttings or sexing the plants until you have preflowers at the nodes. 



> Is 4 weeks unrealistic for preflowers? I have seen some claims that say 5-6 wks from other threads.


 Yep, 4 weeks is unrealistic. 6-8 weeks is more like it. You may on occasion get some precocious plants that show preflowers earlier- if so, call yourself lucky. 6-8 weeks is more usual. 


> Also, everything is going well with he exception of the initial stretching that occured from the overwatering during germination-there are only 4 or 5 that have ended up real leggy. Since that occured to plants that are ultimately going to be maintained as parents will this recorded error be erased by the proper cultivation of the clones taken to flower? Thus erasing any penalty i may have experienced in the yield??


 I would hope after raising the stretchy ones up a bit and pruning them back a couple times while they're vegging that they'll make serviceable mums. The worst that can happen is that these particular plants will have a long woody stem which will put the new veg growth closer to the light than happens with plants that haven't stretched. If you have a lot of vert height to work with in the mum area, this is no great crime. The stretch won't be passed on to clones taken from these plants any more than a mother lab rat with a tail cut off will bear tailless offspring. DNA doesn't work like that. DNA is like a computer program with a lot of IF/THEN statements. IF it encounters certain conditions, THEN it will cause the plant to grow in particular ways. 

I'm curious as to what may be going on in your mum area. What kind of air temps are you seeing now? 



xxtoadxx said:


> al b. i have 5 medical cards, which allows me for 24 flowering / 12 immature. so im trying to do a mini rotation like your harvest every 2 weeks with what i have. unless u have a better idea? 30 plants veg to flower? i dunno..


 ah, ok, that 'splains your low plant count and large pots. If you really must stick to a low number of plants, SoG isn't for you. 







You should be using the 'manstem lopped' style, which requires that plants to be flowered get a couple wks of veg after lopping the mainstem to grow out the lower branches enough to give you a decent yield. Done right, you get plants that look like this:

 

I'd be guessing 4-6oz off of each one of these. 

You could pretty easily fit 6-9 SoG pruned plants in the space occupied by one of these monsters. 

However, the lopped method, since the top cola is not allowed to grow, yields a smaller avg bud size across the crop as well as allows small buds on the lowers to grow. This makes manicuring harder as no matter the size of a bud, they all seem to have about the same amt of bud leaf, meaning more leaf per gram of bud to trim off. Work, work, work...but you gotta do wot you gotta do. If you want big yields off of a low plant count, this is the way to go. 



gvega187 said:


> Al, i have a few questions about container sizing.
> 
> I Found some 2 gallon (8L) buckets at local store. They are about 7" x 7" similar to your pots I believe. Does this sound about right?


 No, it doesn't. My 175mm x 175mm pots are about 4L in volume. (1 US gal = 3.78L)




> My flood table only allows me to flood the bottom 5 inches of that pot. Do I just make sure that the water hits the bottom of the starter plug when flooding?


 nonononono... the plug or RW cube used for cloning must *NEVER* be touched by the flood level! They must be at least *1/2" ABOVE the flood level*. If you allow the highly absorbent plug or cube to be saturated several times a day, your plants will quickly show overwatering symptoms. If your trays flood to 5", the bottom of the plug must be at 5.5". The pellets will be damp enough for the roots to locate and knit into them. Once roots are knitted into the pellets, which have a comparatively low water holding capacity compared to plugs & cubes, it's fine to flood them often, starting with 5x/day and upward for large, vigorous plants. 



> Tested out my flood cycle today and it took about 15 mins to flood the tray with cheap pump like you use. Should I step up to 150-200 GPH? Thought u used the tiny 50-80 gph ones.


 That is a fairly long time to flood. I used cheap 400L/h pumps for many years; they took about 3-4 mins to flood my 900x900mm trays to the overflow. I've very recently replaced these with some 2000L/h pumps as they were only marginally more exxy than the 400s. I use my pumps to drain my tanks every 2 weeks, so a faster pump cuts the time for this job dramatically. I have adjusted my flood time down to about 2 mins per flood as that's all it needs (in fact, a bit less) to get to the overflow levels.



xxtoadxx said:


> p.s al b. my hydro guy was selling me 800 gph sub pumps.... are those too big?


 800 (US gallons / hr) = 3028.32943 litres per hour

Yeah, I'd say they're way more than you really need. Would make quick work of draining the tanks, tho!



corral hollow kid said:


> Al, I have to say Thank You again! You are GREAT to take the time to sit down and help all of us who are trying to figure out this really simple hobby.


 You're welcome.  



> I feel like I owe you somehow....


 oh, OK, if you MUST, go on and send me your first-born... but only if it can mow lawns and run the rotohoe in the veg patch. 



> Within about 3 to 4 degrees F...what's that, like 1 or 2 deg C?


 Your target range is 24-26C, which I spoze is 75.2-78.8F. As long as the room temp is stayng to no more than 2C above the ambient air intake, the vent system is working about as well as it can. 



> On Sept 4...but I began to smell that odor in the tank yesterday (Sept 6) and last night I had a MAJOR pathogen outbreak. pH was 7.8 this morning. The H2O was very cloudy and icky! I gave them a 5ml/L dose...again. Damn!





> There is a lot of buildup...of pathogens I am guessing, in the bottom of all the flood pots. There is a fair amount of buildup, but less in the controller pot. I am sure there is a fair amount in the tank. _ Question:_ *Should I be concerned about getting this crap out of the buckets & tank? or should I just kill it all off and keep reapplying the H2O2 until I can get between cycles and clean out the system???*


 yep, you may have to get in & do some cleaning. There's apparently enough buildup that it's not getting removed just by flooding & draining and may need some light scrubbing to get it all out.

Drain the tank, mix up 1/4 of your tank vol with 5ml/L H2O2, set pH to 5.8 and use that soln to clean all the water contact surfaces, using a bristle brush to loosen anything stuck. Pump that soln up into the trays to soak the rootmasses for a few mins & drain it back to the tank. When it drains out, dump it and mix up a new tank of regular strength nutes, again with 5ml/L 50% grade H2O2.



> Think about it...if you bring him a small piece of growing marijuana, what have you just told him??? Bad idea!!!


 That was my concern. Your hydro shop needs _*very*_ little information about you & what you do with their products. While there's _some_ hydro shop counter clerks who have a lot on the ball, they're rare as a BSEE working the counter at a Radio Shack. If they really knew what they were doing, they'd be running a productive grow op, not tending a retail counter for minumum wage. Therefore, it doesn't usually make a lot of sense to discuss your op with them. They get too much data and you're not likely to get anything but sold products that make a lot of profit for the shop...



xxtoadxx said:


> i didnt call him again lol. u think my hydro guy is shady? i should stay away?


 I'm not finding a lot of reason to deal with them, are you?



gvega187 said:


> What size rez have you found to be adequate?


 About 5L per plant works pretty well. 



Fman said:


> AL here are my diy cool tubes , Bought them on ebay 2 for $25 .


Well done.  

However, I do see your ducting running downward. Unless you need to source and dump your cooltube air through the floor, try to keep ducting as straight and horizontal as you can. Warm air rises and if the ducting is like a rollercoaster, the blower will be working harder to oppose this air motion. 



 

 


My ducting has its intake blower above the ceiling, pushing cool air into a duct which runs downward to cooltube level, but cool air sinks, so this is not a problem. The exhaust end of my cooltube duct run also goes upward, but the air is rather warm by that point, so I'm leveraging the rising motion of warm air to aid flow instead of opposing the air motion from the blower. 


> Also spaceing wise do you think 6- 152mm pots in a 420x610 tray will be crowding? That should work out to 6" pots in a 16"x 24" tray about 6" centers.


You can do as many as 4 per sq ft in SoG. I don't pack them in quite that tightly, I have 23 x 175mm x 175mm pots in each 900x900mm tray which works out to about 2.6 plants per sf.



kirby said:


> However, isnt the CarboLoad nutrient from Advanced Nutrients basically Unsulphered Molasses?


Carbo Load is 'magic sauce' #1. Keep several kilometres between your op, your wallet and Carbo Load. Plants cannot use sugars as a nutrient. The only thing it will feed is microbes and ideally, you shouldn't have any in your op. We're not doing 'organic' here. 

Even the name of 'Carbo Load' levers inapplicable science. The term likely comes from a practise called 'carbo-loading,' used by marathon runners, who eat a lot of complex carbs (pasta, usually) before a race because the carbs release energy slowly, improving endurance. However, cannabis plants are not marathon runners and they can't eat carbs.

Stoney McD had something to say about carbo loading in How Not To Grow Dope:





> 33. Figured the plants wasnt carbo-loading enuff, so put a kilo of cooked spaghetti on the plants
> 34. Spaghetti looked naked, added bolognaise sauce
> 35. 2 weeks pass before the plants work out that there's any light comin from the LEDs
> 36. Phones hung around the seedlings keep ringin in the middle of the night, fucken annoying
> ...





> After putting the clone in the liquid solution of Water, B1, SuperThrive, and tad bit of rooting powder it looks exceptionally good today, compared to what it was. Now, when I take it out of the water, I should just dip it in the rooting powder, and plant it in moist soil? In my case, I use a mix of 40% perlite and 60% super organic soil, with some additives like lime and guanos. Should I keep the soil moist at all times, or will that wash away the rooting powder?


Are you doing a hydroponic grow? There can't be any soil in a hydro op!

I'll warn you now that I'm not a soil guy and won't be able to offer you much assistance with a soil op. This thread is in the hydroponics section of RIU for a reason. 

That said, yes, dip in powder & plug in a damp medium. I use RW cubes for cloning because they work well on a heat mat. A heat mat speeds cloning dramatically. I not only need clones with lots of roots ready every 2 weeks to chuck into the flowering area, but cloning means which take a long time to root will tend to yield sickly, nutrient deficient clones which don't catch on so quickly when chucked in to flower.


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## Chumlie (Sep 7, 2008)

Yea man I Know it was a bad Idea. I was in a desperate situation, I had to do it. So you think if I change back to foxfarms hopfully by Tuesday it will harm it a lot?


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## toast master (Sep 7, 2008)

Chumlie.. I dont want to sound off on you my friend .. but i have followed your questions between you and al , and he has given you some really good advice.. if you go off and do something like this i think you are not takeing some elses time seriousley.... come on ... be realistic.. if your going to use hand grenades for cultivating you dont get to ask " do you think this will hurt "


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## xxtoadxx (Sep 7, 2008)

first of all.. all i gotta say is HOLY SHIT, al b... ur the shit. thank you for all your advice... ok so now we got that settled... should i just run all 30 plants veg - flower all in the garage? nothing in the closet? or.... whats ur opinion? ive seen that picture before browsing thru ur pics, i thought it was amazing... they were beautiful.... well im trying to get max yield pretty much, doesnt matter how often.. just max yield. if i do 30 plants veg-flower all in the garage im just going with 4 x 600's... that way i have space for them to grow, and of course the digital ballast mh/hps. thoughts? have i already said i love u al b? anyways... hear from u soon  thanks


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## xxtoadxx (Sep 7, 2008)

p.s. if i lopped them, could i use the top as a fat clone? since im guessing lopping is taking a big portion off?


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## Chumlie (Sep 7, 2008)

toast master said:


> Chumlie.. I dont want to sound off on you my friend .. but i have followed your questions between you and al , and he has given you some really good advice.. if you go off and do something like this i think you are not takeing some elses time seriousley.... come on ... be realistic.. if your going to use hand grenades for cultivating you dont get to ask " do you think this will hurt "


Dude, you need understand I'm following his advice as best as I can right now, and believe me I know It is *The Shit* of the advice given on here. Yet at this point I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place with my system. 
When I order hydro supplies from a store that is 3 to 4 hours away, I wouldn't think it would take two weeks to get here, maybe a week.


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## toast master (Sep 7, 2008)

Ya i understand chum... just that i didnt see any advice on miracle grow for ph control... sometimes being patient is much better than lobbing one in there..lol good luck


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## Fman (Sep 7, 2008)

Al-- Thanks,for the input. The downward line is the cool air intake from under the house.


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 7, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> yep, you may have to get in & do some cleaning. There's apparently enough buildup that it's not getting removed just by flooding & draining and may need some light scrubbing to get it all out.


I thought so...



> Drain the tank, mix up 1/4 of your tank vol with 5ml/L H2O2, set pH to 5.8 and use that soln to clean all the water contact surfaces, using a bristle brush to loosen anything stuck. Pump that soln up into the trays to soak the rootmasses for a few mins & drain it back to the tank. When it drains out, dump it and mix up a new tank of regular strength nutes, again with 5ml/L 50% grade H2O2.


So I am still having a hell of a time finding 50% H2O2 - can readily find 35% H2O2, so I just ordered a bunch of HyOx (35% H2O2 from Advanced Nutrients) at $20.00 per gallon, $28.00 after shipping.

This morning I put 35% H2O2 into my tank at a rate of 8.5ml/L. I corrected the pH back to 5.8. Then I partially filled the e&f pots BELOW the level of the RW cubes...I hope! I let that set for about 20 minutes, then pumped it back out. I let the system e&f 1 complete time after that to try and get the H2O2 mixed in good throughout the system.

The pH seems to be stabilized again at 5.8. BUT...just to be sure I dosed the tank again and let it sit for a couple hours. The water is clearing up and the smell is going away.

I seriously don't know what I would have done if you had not turned me on to the wonders of H2O2. Thanks again Al!!! I'll get to cleaning and let you know how it goes.

Light, Air, Water, Nutrients, pH & Pathogen Control. Is that all I need?

Sounds simple.... Boy do I feel about like a doofus!!! I hope I get my shit together by the 2nd or 3rd time around....

Oh Yeah - I ordered calibration/cleaning solutions for my pH & ec pens!!! I Gotta know what the pH is at ALL times!!! (I got ec vs ppm because Ionic nutes use ec instead of ppm for target ranges)

Thanks again Al!!!


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## andy7000 (Sep 7, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Max development isn't your concern at this time. You need to raise your seedlings (usually) for about 6-8wks under veg cycle light before they will show preflowers. No sense in doing any cuttings or sexing the plants until you have preflowers at the nodes.
> 
> Yep, 4 weeks is unrealistic. 6-8 weeks is more like it. You may on occasion get some precocious plants that show preflowers earlier- if so, call yourself lucky. 6-8 weeks is more usual.


do you have to wait until you see preflowers before you can put a plant into flower. i thought if you started the plant on 12 hours of darkness it will flower.


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## Chumlie (Sep 7, 2008)

Yea agree but my plants were looking so sad now there proably goin to die, and if they do I'll just start over again. This time I want run out of ph down, but Im thing about switching over to inorganic fert were I can use h2o2. What do you think about dutchmaster, and dutchmaster gold you, Al, are anybody else?


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 7, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Im thing about switching over to inorganic fert were I can use h2o2. What do you think about dutchmaster, and dutchmaster gold you, Al, are anybody else?


I am using Ionic nutrients. They seem good...but I need to do better pathogen/temperature control!!!


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 7, 2008)

DAMN!!! Getting close to that 100 page mark!!!


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## xxtoadxx (Sep 7, 2008)

hmmm u have pics chumlie of ur sick plants from maybe ph over 7.0? maybe im having the same prob? my ph meter reads my water at like 9.0.... then i add grow big and it lowers it to 6.2.-6.6 with cal-mag.... i have used ph down once, but is it necessary? is 9.0 crazy ph or what? if i fed my plants with 9.0 ph what would they look like?


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## Chumlie (Sep 7, 2008)

Worse than mine. I had only 7.0 and mine were all droping some had burnt marks some zinc dif. and other dif. Some had both. How the fuck do you fix that.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 7, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Yea man I Know it was a bad Idea. I was in a desperate situation, I had to do it. So you think if I change back to foxfarms hopfully by Tuesday it will harm it a lot?


Fox Farm is organic, isn't it? Not compatible with H2O2. Get on a program of std nutes with regularly applied H2O2, correct pHDown sauce as needed- and stick with it. 



toast master said:


> Chumlie.. I dont want to sound off on you my friend .. but i have followed your questions between you and al , and he has given you some really good advice.. if you go off and do something like this i think you are not takeing some elses time seriousley.... come on ... be realistic.. if your going to use hand grenades for cultivating you dont get to ask " do you think this will hurt "


yeh, wot 'e said. 

Only 1970s Doonesbury tragics will know WTF I'm talking about, but your comment reminds me of when Zonker Harris was making up his mind whether to harvest his organic wheat patch with a lawnmower or explosives. 



Chumlie said:


> Dude, you need understand I'm following his advice as best as I can right now, and believe me I know It is *The Shit* of the advice given on here.





xxtoadxx said:


> first of all.. all i gotta say is HOLY SHIT, al b... ur the shit.


*Only* on a cannabis board would getting called '_*the shit*_' be very high praise (and thanks for that ). 

Most people just call me '_*A*_ shit.'  

English is a turd of a language, innt? 


> thank you for all your advice... ok so now we got that settled... should i just run all 30 plants veg - flower all in the garage? nothing in the closet? or.... whats ur opinion? ive seen that picture before browsing thru ur pics, i thought it was amazing... they were beautiful.... well im trying to get max yield pretty much, doesnt matter how often.. just max yield. if i do 30 plants veg-flower all in the garage im just going with 4 x 600's... that way i have space for them to grow, and of course the digital ballast mh/hps. thoughts?


Well, if you have to work with small plant counts, your plants to be flowered will require some vegging and you'll need to do that somewhere. 

If you keep only one main growing area, it needs veg lighting for a cpl weeks before flowering, meaning you can only grow a single, whole room crop at a time. You'd fill the whole room at once with plants and harvest the lot at once. This has a number of drawbacks, notably at harvest time, where you have to clear the room at once and fill it again with plants which need a cpl wks of veg. You'll still need a very small area (2-3 sq ft) to maintain mums and also a clonebox.

If you want a continuous harvest op, you must have a separate, dedicated 12/12 flowering room which you feed plants into periodically, say, every 2 weeks. For that flowering room, you will need an 18/6 (or more) veg area big enough to suit your plants where they'll veg a couple wks under strong lights after having the mainstem lopped to get them ready for flowering. The veg area can be smaller than the flowering area, but it'll be larger than that needed for a SoG op's mum plant area. The advantage of continuous harvest is that it breaks up the manicuring job. You may feed in 1/4 of the room's capacity every 2 weeks and take the same number of finished plants out. It's a lot faster to manicure a 1/4 of a room in one go than the whole shebang. Your grow room will have temp & RH control. It's better to have a little space (even if just the floor between trays) to hold plants to be harvested in queue rather than taking them out of the room to an area without such tight environmental controls while they are waiting for the chop. Big buds can go to mould fast without lots of air motion and RH control. 



> have i already said i love u al b?


maybe.. but will you share with me the *CFL French Tickler of Luv?*  Then I'll know u r my [FONT=&quot]&#9829;[/FONT] of [FONT=&quot]&#9829;[/FONT]s.


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 7, 2008)

xxtoadxx said:


> hmmm u have pics chumlie of ur sick plants from maybe ph over 7.0? maybe im having the same prob? my ph meter reads my water at like 9.0.... then i add grow big and it lowers it to 6.2.-6.6 with cal-mag.... i have used ph down once, but is it necessary? is 9.0 crazy ph or what? if i fed my plants with 9.0 ph what would they look like?


What caused your pH to spike up? Pathogens? 

When I hit mine at like 7.2 the edges of the leaves curled up, the leaf tips curled under, chlorosis appeared on the leaves, what looked like chemical burns appeared on the 2nd & 3rd day after the hit, there was a general yellowing of the larger fan leaves, and there almost appeared to be a zinc deficiency - color banding, on some of the upper & middle leaves. Just totally screwed up!!!

They really don't like it when the pH gets over like 6.3. Avoid the high pH numbers!!!

Get that pH down man!!! are you doing the H2O2 treatments???

Once I got my pH down the plant seemed to recover from the bottom up & from the veins out. It took a good 3 days before I saw any significant improvement.

I did not learn and I let the pathogens get me again. I am again recovering from a pH spike. Dammit! Al has taught me so much!!!


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## Chumlie (Sep 7, 2008)

corral hollow kid how long did the water stay like that befor you fix it?


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## toast master (Sep 7, 2008)

That thought makes me think of .... oohhhhhh never mind


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## toast master (Sep 7, 2008)

Chumlie ... dont worry... just chalk it to experience belive me i have done worse... but not before asking ....lol youll come out on top


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## toast master (Sep 7, 2008)

Maybe i should have said lob cfls, but then al would hvae been picking them up for later use....lol


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 7, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> corral hollow kid how long did the water stay like that befor you fix it?


When it happened the first time it took me about 3 days before I figured out what the hell was happening.

The reservoir began smelling foul...kinda like a stagnant fish pond. The water got cloudy and the pH just kept rising, no matter how much pH down I put in.

Finally...I posted here and Al saved my ass.

This time I recognized the signs/symptoms. I should have put the H2O2 in yesterday. But it was due for treatment today so I waited. I should have done it yesterday, like my gut told me to!

After the first time I went into panic mode. I had allowed my system to e&f several times with high pH. I flushed each pot with about 2.5 gallons of water pH adjusted to 5.8. The run off after I was done was 6.0. Then I mixed up a batch of nutes with H2O2 and watched the pH. Everything was good for about 2 days, then I smelled that odor again, and WHAM! The pH went AWOL overnight and went from 5.8 to 7.8 between 11pm and 5:30am. This time I may have to flush and clean the entire hydro system!!!

Get some H2O2 ASAP!!!


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 7, 2008)

toast master said:


> Maybe i should have said lob cfls,


Free CFLs???


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## Chumlie (Sep 7, 2008)

Hey it,s only my 400,786 grow. Ill get on that damn horse again
JK...It's only second.


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## sparkafire (Sep 7, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Yea agree but my plants were looking so sad now there proably goin to die, and if they do I'll just start over again. This time I want run out of ph down, but Im thing about switching over to inorganic fert were I can use h2o2. What do you think about dutchmaster, and dutchmaster gold you, Al, are anybody else?



Hey CHum!! I too have watched you fumble fuck around here on ABF's thread now for quite awhile. My suggestion and its only a suggestion is to STOP STOP doing hydro and move to dirt!!!! Your killing us with your endless questions and very basic and common sense ones to boot!! He is not here to build and grow your garden. HE is a reference. 

Here is some more advise *READ RESEARCH AND YOU WILL BE REWARDED!!! * Go back start from scratch IN DIRT!! and do your home work on hydro. 


OK i am done!


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## toast master (Sep 7, 2008)

Finally AL has found a use for cfls... and there they were all the time, you just had to learn to loooove them. lol


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## xxtoadxx (Sep 7, 2008)

so what your saying is... when im using just straight up water to water my plants, since i feed every other watering, use ph down to hit 6.2-6.6 and not just say fuck it if it read 7-7.5? bad bad bad?


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## purpdaddy (Sep 7, 2008)

Al look im not trying to fight with you just thinking maybe im wrong but i am openm inded....how do you maintain a succesfull grow with your ph in the 8's?


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 7, 2008)

xxtoadxx said:


> so what your saying is... when im using just straight up water to water my plants, since i feed every other watering, use ph down to hit 6.2-6.6 and not just say fuck it if it read 7-7.5? bad bad bad?


Are you growing hydro? or some hybrid/hydro/soil setup?  

My nutes are in my reservoir and nuke my girls EVERY time I water. How do you feed "every other watering" with a "hydroponic" system?

and yes. If you have a "hydroponic" system then your "target" pH is 5.8. Anything over 6.2 (I think) and your locking out nutes.

Look back a few pages in this thread, Al has posted the ph/nutrient scale. It's in vivid color!!! But it's all here in Black and White!!!

I gotta go check my pH.


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## toast master (Sep 7, 2008)

Hey chumlie ... im pretty sure al wont give up on ya... just try to follow instructions to the letter.... dont wonder off.... stick to the plan... and if you do... welllll .....you know what then... buds a bunches....


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 7, 2008)

toast master said:


> sometimes being patient is much better than lobbing one in there..lol good luck


 Patience is a topic I haven't touched on recently. New growers are expectant and anxious to do the right thing and you can't fault them for having enthusiasm. However, it's that enthusiasm which more often than not leads to disaster. Noobs kill with kindness, overwatering and overfertilising with astounding regularity. 

This process *does* take time! It's a minimum of 14 weeks (yes, 3.5 mos) from beans to buds. We shortcut that by several weeks in SoG, where mother plants supply a constant flow of clones to be flowered. 

New growers should work on spending as little time as possible on the plants. Sit in the grow room & fawn over your work if you must, but resist the urge to fiddle and change things. 



Fman said:


> Al-- Thanks,for the input. The downward line is the cool air intake from under the house.


 Yeah, that's what I kinda thought was happening. It's gotta go somewhere and under the house is a great place. Cuts noise and reduces any heat signature, while the latter isn't really too much of a worry.



corral hollow kid said:


> So I am still having a hell of a time finding 50% H2O2 - can readily find 35% H2O2, so I just ordered a bunch of HyOx (35% H2O2 from Advanced Nutrients) at $20.00 per gallon, $28.00 after shipping.


 That's not too bad. Will last you a while. 



> This morning I put 35% H2O2 into my tank at a rate of 8.5ml/L. I corrected the pH back to 5.8. Then I partially filled the e&f pots BELOW the level of the RW cubes...I hope! I let that set for about 20 minutes, then pumped it back out. I let the system e&f 1 complete time after that to try and get the H2O2 mixed in good throughout the system.


 good, good, good 



> The pH seems to be stabilized again at 5.8. BUT...just to be sure I dosed the tank again and let it sit for a couple hours. The water is clearing up and the smell is going away.


 yep, that's what we want! When your tanks remain clear & pH steady, you're on top of it. 



> I seriously don't know what I would have done if you had not turned me on to the wonders of H2O2. Thanks again Al!!! I'll get to cleaning and let you know how it goes.


 Yep, you may have to do a little work to mechanically remove what the chemicals are having a hard time getting to. 



> Light, Air, Water, Nutrients, pH & Pathogen Control. Is that all I need?


 That's the whole crate of bananas. 



> Oh Yeah - I ordered calibration/cleaning solutions for my pH & ec pens!!! I Gotta know what the pH is at ALL times!!! (I got ec vs ppm because Ionic nutes use ec instead of ppm for target ranges)


 Yes, you have to have accurate metering. Otherwise, you're like an electrician without a voltmeter. 

The scale doesn't matter, my TDS Truncheon is calibrated in EC & ppm. ppm is the preferred scale in the US and due to the number of US users on cannabis boards, is a widely used figure in cannabis discussion forums.



andy7000 said:


> do you have to wait until you see preflowers before you can put a plant into flower. i thought if you started the plant on 12 hours of darkness it will flower.


 You can't sex the plant until it is showing preflowers. If you chuck it in to flower before you know the sex, you have a 50% chance of wasting some of your flowering area space on males. 

Even if you do get some females out of the plants that you flowered before they were showing preflowers, cuttings taken from plants in flower are notoriously slow to set root. A plant which has been in flower is thus not useful for cuttings, so those prematurely flowered plants won't be good mums. If you do manage to get a cutting from a flowering plant to set root, that clone will itself be in flower. If you want to use it as a mother plant, it will have to be re-vegged. It can take 6-8 weeks to return a plant in flower to full veg state growth. In the meantime, it will throw out some weird, mixed habit growth, with long 1-bladed fan leaves and slow vertical growth. 

The right way to do it is to sprout your beans, grow them to sexual maturity (showing preflowers), take cuttings, root them, flower those cuts to determine sex of the donor plants, then proceed to take batches of cutting off the now known females which have remained under veg lighting. 



Chumlie said:


> What do you think about dutchmaster, and dutchmaster gold you, Al, are anybody else?


 No opinion. I use Canna 2-part nutes because they're easy & reliable. No 3-part confusions going on in this op. 



corral hollow kid said:


> DAMN!!! Getting close to that 100 page mark!!!


 It's madness. The readership stats on this thread are going a bit mad, up to 427/day, climbing every day. It is starting to get a little out of control... I'm spending too much time at the PC.



xxtoadxx said:


> hmmm u have pics chumlie of ur sick plants from maybe ph over 7.0? maybe im having the same prob? my ph meter reads my water at like 9.0.... then i add grow big and it lowers it to 6.2.-6.6 with cal-mag.... i have used ph down once, but is it necessary? is 9.0 crazy ph or what? if i fed my plants with 9.0 ph what would they look like?


You'd see a lot of nute deficiencies as almost all nutes would be locked out. 







5.8 is the place to be.


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## xxtoadxx (Sep 7, 2008)

thanks again


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## firsttimegroww (Sep 7, 2008)

Albf im trying to do sog as well and you said cut everything on the bottem 1/3 AND all branches that are longer then a couple inches?
But Almost ALL my branches are longer then a couple inches, if i cut them all off i will just have the main stem. Is that right?


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## Return of the Spork (Sep 7, 2008)

Ill tell you what, this is the first thread I check when I get on the forums. I learned method from everywhere else, I learned details from you.


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## Old in the Way (Sep 7, 2008)

THanks for the reply Al.

My Veg room where all seedlings are being raised to be parents/mums
1kw MH 2-2.5ft from seedlings (8 days of veg so far)
1200ppm Ionic Nutes, 5.8ph
74-78 f. lights on-has hit 80 twice
69-72 f. lights off-has hit 67 once
50-55% RH (at times as low as 45 and high of 60)

I don't think I have anything "going on" in the veg room other than the original stretch a week ago immediately following germination.

Everything is growing well-just a few of the severe cases from my original query are waiting for the stem to thicken up and better support the vegetation. They are healthy and thickening steadily so they should recover. Height restrictions are not an issue for me so taller mums do not pose a problem for the space.

I can clone for sex by week 4 or 5 instead of waiting for preflowers right?
Or whenever the plant has suitable branches?

Again thanks for helping to fill in the blanks.


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## xxtoadxx (Sep 7, 2008)

hey corral thx for the advice, im using ocean forrest fox farm soil 3.5 gallon pots since clone


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## Phinxter (Sep 7, 2008)

Al B. a buddy of mine recently gave me a 50 pack of rapid rooter plugs for cloning to try out his method... which he says gets him 100% strike rate in 6 to 9 days.
he failed to mention how moist he leaves them

have you ever used or seen rapid rooter plugs used and if so how much moisture would you recommend.
the packaging says to soak in water to rehydrate them however i notice this leaves them soaked.
they are very sponge like so i squeezed out excess moisture leaving them only damp as you describe for RW cubes.
any suggestions from anyone thats used these please chime in as i dont want to waste 40 or so clones due to not knowing how to use these rapid rooters. 
here is a link to the exact same product
High Tech Garden Supply


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 7, 2008)

firsttimegroww said:


> Albf im trying to do sog as well and you said cut everything on the bottem 1/3 AND all branches that are longer then a couple inches?
> But Almost ALL my branches are longer then a couple inches, if i cut them all off i will just have the main stem. Is that right?


 In SoG, you're looking only to grow the top cola an the few buds down the mainstem from it. Should wind up looking like these:












Return of the Spork said:


> Ill tell you what, this is the first thread I check when I get on the forums. I learned method from everywhere else, I learned details from you.


 heh, thanks 



Old in the Way said:


> I don't think I have anything "going on" in the veg room other than the original stretch a week ago immediately following germination.



ah, ok 



> I can clone for sex by week 4 or 5 instead of waiting for preflowers right?
> Or whenever the plant has suitable branches?


Nope. Have to wait until there are preflowers before you can sex them.

Folks, the rate of questions and posts in this thread is starting to get out of control. I'm putting about 6h+/day in this now to cover them all and that's become excessive. I have to get more done in my own op. Apologies if I don't get to your queries for a day or two, but I gotta get my own house in order.


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## potroast (Sep 8, 2008)

Thread closed temporarily ...


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

OK, thread's back open. I'm still pretty busy, so if you have a query, please be patient.


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## GypsyBush (Sep 17, 2008)

Welcome Back...!!!


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## Phinxter (Sep 17, 2008)

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! great to have you back.
1st question i have is regarding LED lights to supplement my 2 x 23 watt cfl ... ok ok just kidding. LOL sorry 
really tho my question maybe should be in your clones section.
i have been getting much better results cloning since reading your thread on the subject . my question is this regarding 1 strain i have "urkle" and its very bushy.
i have 2 choices in clone material from this plant would you recommend shorter clones with softer lighter green new growth or longer clones with a thicker more mature stem?
clones are rooted in rapid rooter plugs in a clear tupperware tub with the lid on under a 4 tube T5 and hand watered with tap water


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

Phinxter said:


> 1st question i have is regarding LED lights to supplement my 2 x 23 watt cfl ...


Won't work worth a damn unless you use an Aerogarbage with 50% molasses, 50% Carbo Load and 50% fulvic acid. 



> i have 2 choices in clone material from this plant would you recommend shorter clones with softer lighter green new growth or longer clones with a thicker more mature stem?


Stem material which has gone woody will set root, but the fresher material is usually quicker to root and more vigorous. Ideal cutting material is fresh growth with a thick stem, >5.5mm dia seems to be a good target.


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## fitzyno1 (Sep 17, 2008)

Hi Al, welcome back.

Around a month ago you were comparing circulating DWC to flood and drain. 
Now, one of the problems you mentioned with the circulating DWC was that it could overflow, because the roots could clog up the exit pipe, for the nutrients. 
This here exit hole...
View attachment 195353
I thought that if i got mesh, hot glue the mesh 1/4 the way up from the bottom of the buckets (inside the bucket offcourse), i could prevent the overflow from happening, but now i'm skeptical, because the roots might grow into the mesh and make matters worse.
This is the nylon mesh i got...

It has 1mm holes. The buckets are 5 gallon and the plants will be fully grown.
What do you think?
Would it be possible to clog the '_hole_' mesh up? 
Or do you see anything else that could go wrong?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> Hi Al, welcome back.
> 
> Around a month ago you were comparing circulating DWC to flood and drain.


I was? I did? Are you sure it was me?



> Now, one of the problems you mentioned with the circulating DWC was that it could overflow, because the roots could clog up the exit pipe, for the nutrients.


This really doesn't sound familiar. Can you link me to what you say I said? 

Where's pix of the rest of this system?


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## Phinxter (Sep 17, 2008)

AL B. in your mind is there any hydro method that is suitable for rooting clones or will this always be a hand water due to the clones tender needs ?
granted it gives me a reason to be in my grow room a couple times a day to check on them but just like you i too can be a lazy stoner at times and forget my clones


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

Phinxter said:


> AL B. in your mind is there any hydro method that is suitable for rooting clones or will this always be a hand water due to the clones tender needs ?


Some folks have had good results with aerocloners, which can be left unattended for several days at a stretch. I've never been able to get them to work consistently well, tho. 



> i too can be a lazy stoner at times and forget my clones


I water mine at very close to 12h intervals, makes it reasonably easy to remember to do.


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## crazy-mental (Sep 17, 2008)

sorry for not reading all the posts.
how long did you vegg for?
how much do you expect per plant"dried"


nice looking plants.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

crazy-mental said:


> how long did you vegg for?


zero veg time.



> how much do you expect per plant


1-1.25z


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## crazy-mental (Sep 17, 2008)

great .
how long did they take?.
what food did you use and how much?.
thanks
btw they look great.
some people say plants shouldnt be put straight in to 12/12.
but you proved them wrong in my eyes.
great job.
what lights did you use?.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

> great .


thanks .



> how long did they take?.


8 weeks



> what food did you use and how much?.


Canna Flores, 1400ppm



> thanks


you're welcome



> btw they look great.


thanks



> some people say plants shouldnt be put straight in to 12/12.


some people can't find their arse with both hands and a flashlight.



> but you proved them wrong in my eyes.


yours and everyone else's. 



> great job.


thanks



> what lights did you use?.


1000W HPS in cooltubes


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## Phinxter (Sep 17, 2008)

crazy-mental another good read is Al B. Fuct's https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html it shows his method of cloning which yields very tall clones which works perfectly with his zero veg time and SoG lollipops
i recommend everyone give it a read if you plan to swipe just 1 technique from Al B. this is the one that helped me the most.
i went from maybe 2 out of 10 strikes on rooting my clones to closer to 8 out of 10 and will keep working on it until i reach 99.9999% which seems to be right about what Al B. is getting.
thanks Al. for your time and time again proven methods and patience to work with us newer growers.
and for sure everyone give his cloning thread a read it will be well worth your time


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

Thanxter.


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## fitzyno1 (Sep 17, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I was? I did? Are you sure it was me?
> 
> This really doesn't sound familiar. Can you link me to what you say I said?
> 
> Where's pix of the rest of this system?


I can't find a link, but i'm near sure you said it, it makes sense, that the roots could block the exit nute pipe. But if you don't want to take the credit for it, thats ok 

Sorry, that link mustn't have loaded properly for me, here's the photo of where the exit nute pipe will be coming from.


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## SpruceZeus (Sep 17, 2008)

Hey Al, long time listener, first time caller. Any thoughts on hydroton? i know you use fytocell, but can you offer any advice? I just was gifted 5 huge sacks of expanded clay and dont even know where to start when it comes to hydro. Thanks for being a great dope grower who doesnt need to but is really helpful to the growing community, noobs and vetrans alike.


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## benson (Sep 17, 2008)

SpruceZeus said:


> Hey Al, long time listener, first time caller. Any thoughts on hydroton? i know you use fytocell, but can you offer any advice? I just was gifted 5 huge sacks of expanded clay and dont even know where to start when it comes to hydro. Thanks for being a great dope grower who doesnt need to but is really helpful to the growing community, noobs and vetrans alike.


put them in ur resoviour, when da water gos down put them in to keep it level wit ur pots, u could also use them 4 shooting cats tru a cat-a-pull-it


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> I can't find a link, but i'm near sure you said it, it makes sense, that the roots could block the exit nute pipe. But if you don't want to take the credit for it, thats ok


Well, it _*does*_ make sense, but I don't think I can claim this one! 



> Sorry, that link mustn't have loaded properly for me, here's the photo of where the exit nute pipe will be coming from.


You're right that a well-functioning DWC will produce copious rootmass. About the only way around it that I can think of is to use a container so large that the roots can't possibly fill it to the point where it will block the drain. Unfortunately, any barrier that allows free passage of water will also allow free passage of developing roots. 

I certainly see what you're doing and why. I'd likely do the something like that in this case. 

One reason I prefer flood systems because of the central reservoir. Makes changing out the nutes a lot easier. You're trying to get that advantage with your recirc DWC, among other things. 

However, when you have to plumb nute solns around, you run the risk of clogs from various causes, either from roots following the nute soln or from algae/fungi growth inside the tubing. Here's hoping you've used opaque tubing, or if you have not, at least have blocked light to the tubing to stop algae growth.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

SpruceZeus said:


> Hey Al, long time listener, first time caller.


 hahahahha, jeez, now I feel like Bob McChesney. 



> Any thoughts on hydroton?


 Yep, clay pellets have definite up & downsides. On the upside, being that they hold almost no water, roots in pellets can be flooded frequently without risk of overwatering, maximising the amount of oxygenated nute soln that can be circulated through the rootmass. More O2 to the roots means more vigor and faster development. Pellets can be flooded 5x/day just after planting clones in the stuff (wk1-2 of flowering) and as often as 1/hr for about 5 mins for mature, vigorously growing plants. 

On the downside, if you clone in RW cubes, when planting the rooted cube in pellets, you must make sure that the cube is 1/2" ABOVE the flood level. If you saturate a RW cube 5x/day, roots will be drowned and the plants will quickly have big troubles from overwatering. Pellets are technically re-usable but must be fully cleaned of old root matter and then sterilised or root diseases can be transferred from crop to crop. 

You have a way to go before you are ready to use your pellets. Once you get some clones rooted, pop back in & we'll chat about where to go from there.



benson said:


> put them in ur resoviour, when da water gos down put them in to keep it level wit ur pots, u could also use them 4 shooting cats tru a cat-a-pull-it


Wow, I think I've finally found Stoney McDoper's spelling & grammar teacher!


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## sparkafire (Sep 17, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Wow, I think I've finally found Stoney McDoper's spelling & grammar teacher!


And i think he is also related to chumlie.


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## Stoney McDoper (Sep 17, 2008)

wye do i feal like Al is maken fun uv me agen

i am NOT relatd to chumpley but i herd he mite be goin out wif my sistar


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## newportbeach949 (Sep 17, 2008)

happy to see this thread going again, i was worried i wouldnt see it again.

absolutely no problems here , just doing my daily reading .

i'm going to start a journal tonight and would like a comment on how i'm coming along, i'll post a link when i'm done writing it up


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

yep, I had to put the brakes on for a while while I was catching up work in my own op. The time I spend here is actually when I'm tired of grinding it out in my op. My biggest complaints about running an op are the isolation and monotony. RIU is sort of the dope growers' watercooler.


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## ZEN MASTER (Sep 17, 2008)

hey al glad to see you back. how was fiji, awesome i can imagine. i've alawys wanted to go there, but anywho glad your back.hate to hit you up like this, buti have some indicas and sativas in pots of soil they have been flowering for approximately 10 wks(when i started 12/12). now i'm not worried about the sativas, yet. but the trichs on the indicas are only about 80-85% cloudy, but the hairs are about 60% brown, and the trichs are pretty much the same on the sativa, but her hairs are only about 25% orange. now i want to wait till at least some of the trichs on the indicas are amber but seeing as the pistils are turning brown and orange i dont want to mess up and wait too long and the thc start to degrage. i think that it was you who said that in siol it takes a little longer for the plants to mature. what would be your advice for this situation(for the indicas and sativas). thanks in advance.


PEACE!!!!
-ZEN-


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## BigBudBalls (Sep 17, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> RIU is sort of the dope growers' watercooler.


Now that is quotable!

"Did you hear Mildred is sleeping with Oscar?" lol

Hey Al, how long to you keep a mum?
Any feelings about the genetics falling off from clones of clones of clones?

*Somewhere* You mentioned that 5.5mm stalks are best for cutting, but woody stalks take longer to root. Now I have yet, in my early experience, to see a stalk in the 5mm range that wasn't woody.

I've had about the same success % of woody vs non woody.
(been playing a lot lately. Its fun. Though some might think I'm nuts for killing viable females.)


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 17, 2008)

You're back! Hi Al. How are things?

I think I have my pathogen prob under control, thanks to your H2O2 treatment program!!! Thanks again for the help. I am having to dose every other day...if I wait for the 3rd day the tank just explodes with pathogens on the second night. It seems to be working, for now. H2O2 is cheap! I am thinking of getting a dosing pump and automating this part of the op. What do you think of the Hanna dosing pumps?

 Is it normal for the pH to want to climb a little bit all the time? or should it stabilize and say at like 5.8 for a couple of days? My pH is always wandering up. It can be 5.8 just before a flood, but an hour _after _the flood it is 5.9. The pH goes up fairly consistently .1 or .2 per flood. Is that normal? Am I being repetitive?

How you feel about pH automation? It looks a bit pricey...

Any suggestions you have would be great!!! Thanks, in advance, Al!!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

ZEN MASTER said:


> hey al glad to see you back. how was fiji, awesome i can imagine. i've alawys wanted to go there, but anywho glad your back.


Thanks 

Fiji was great, but next time I'm not staying at a resort, gonna stay with some locals I got to know and love. I was rather wary of travelling to a place which is in the middle of a military coup, and quite reasonably so had I went to Suva. I flew in to Nadi and immediately off of the big island, over to Vanua Levu, where the political temperature regarding foreigners is a bit lower. The people by and large support the coup leaders. Their objection to the last govt was it seems to have a bias toward big money interests and economically disfavours native Fijians. 

Former PM Laisenia Qarase certainly did have a stink of corruption around him and foreigners absolutely do dominate Fiji's tourism industry and property ownership, in many cases either not employing or drastically underpaying native Fijian employees. Foreigners, both residents and visitors, also tend not to respect traditional land owners' rights, tromping about & fishing in places which are of special cultural significance to the people, with no regard whatsoever for the sensitivities of the native peoples. I can see why the native Fijian people are peeved. 



> hate to hit you up like this,


heh, hit away, it's kinda why I'm here. 



> i have some indicas and sativas in pots of soil they have been flowering for approximately 10 wks(when i started 12/12). now i'm not worried about the sativas, yet. but the trichs on the indicas are only about 80-85% cloudy, but the hairs are about 60% brown, and the trichs are pretty much the same on the sativa, but her hairs are only about 25% orange.


I'd say it's harvest time. 10wks is about right for soil. 



BigBudBalls said:


> Hey Al, how long to you keep a mum?


It varies. Some keep producing vigorous new growth for 3 mos or more, some are never terribly good producers or the woody part of their mainstem gets too tall, forcing fresh growth to be a bit too high up, meaning it gets too close to the light in the 14 days between cutting batches of clones. 

I don't feel bad about disposing of poorly productive or badly formed mums quite frequently. I have space for 10 mums in the veg tray. At any given time, 6-8 of them will be good producing plants and the others have been relatively recently introduced to the mum area and are vegging up to a productive size. 



> Any feelings about the genetics falling off from clones of clones of clones?


Yeah, it doesn't happen. You can cut the tails off successive generations of lab rats before they breed but never produce rats born tailless. Why? Because you haven't altered the rat's DNA, which exists in every cell in the creature. Similar thing happening with taking cuttings from plants. No change has been made to the DNA. 

A cutting is genetically identical to the mother plant. However, a plant propagated by cuttings will be more faithful to the source plant DNA than your modified lab rat, which is reproducing through sexual means. Sexual reproduction is a good way to introduce errors or mutations into DNA. 

I've been propagating Sweet Tooth #4 by cuttings from beans sprouted in 2002. If the DNA is going to start changing on me, it is certainly taking its own sweet time about it. 



> *Somewhere* You mentioned that 5.5mm stalks are best for cutting, but woody stalks take longer to root. Now I have yet, in my early experience, to see a stalk in the 5mm range that wasn't woody.


Here's some >10mm stems that are not woody. 

 
_mums just after cuts and 14 days later- lower growth does get woody, new material is fresh & pliant_ 



> I've had about the same success % of woody vs non woody.
> (been playing a lot lately. Its fun. Though some might think I'm nuts for killing viable females.)


When you're proficient enough to get good results frequently enough to supply the needs for production and yet have leftovers, you are in a fine position to experiment. I grow an awful lot more vegetative material than totally necessary so I can choose the largest and most vigorous tissues for cuttings. Every harvest, between trimmings from flowering plants and waste from cutting clones, I put at least one solidly packed 9L bucket of plant trimmings in the compost, maybe 3-4kg of chopped up plant matter. You can bet my compost worms are some of the happiest invertebrates on (or rather, _*in*_) earth.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

corral hollow kid said:


> You're back! Hi Al. How are things?


Not bad, starting to catch up my work a bit.



> I think I have my pathogen prob under control, thanks to your H2O2 treatment program!!! Thanks again for the help.


dynamite, great to hear it. 



> I am having to dose every other day...if I wait for the 3rd day the tank just explodes with pathogens on the second night. It seems to be working, for now. H2O2 is cheap!


You might increase your dosage rate. What you're applying isn't killing the core pathogen load. Try a one-time dose of 50% grade @ 5ml/L (8.5ml for 35%), then return to 1ml/L (or 1.7ml/L for 35%) every 3-4 days, see if it doesn't cooperate. If you're using a flood system, pour about a litre or so of the high dose soln through the tops of the plants to assure that all of the rootmass is being treated. 


> I am thinking of getting a dosing pump and automating this part of the op. What do you think of the Hanna dosing pumps?


Sounds like a good idea. I haven't seen the Hanna pumps. Got a link? 



> Is it normal for the pH to want to climb a little bit all the time? or should it stabilize and say at like 5.8 for a couple of days? My pH is always wandering up. It can be 5.8 just before a flood, but an hour _after _the flood it is 5.9. The pH goes up fairly consistently .1 or .2 per flood. Is that normal? Am I being repetitive?


There's a couple of causes of rising pH. Rockwool will do it as a result of some residual limestone dust in the material. This is one of the reasons that one should soak RW cubes used for cloning in a 5.0 soln for 24h and fully drain the cubes with a salad spinner before plugging stems in them. 

It is not practical to presoak RW floc as it's hard to sufficiently drain the material of the presoaking soln. When I was using pots stuffed with only RW floc, a .1 rise after the 1x/day flood was the norm. I shot the pH a bit low, 5.6 usually (in the fond hope that the actual rootzone pH would be 5.8 ) and corrected tank pH down when it got over 6.0. pH is a lot more stable with my present media, Fytocell. 

Another very common cause of rising pH is pathogens in the system, notably pythium and fusarium. 



> How you feel about pH automation? It looks a bit pricey...


Got linkage? 

Any reliable automation of mundane tasks is a good thing. After all, we're stoners here and remembering to do certain tasks can be somewhat beyond us.


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## Phinxter (Sep 17, 2008)

Hanna Instruments BL Chemical Dosing Pumps hanna dosing pumps as requested Al B.


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## grandpabear3 (Sep 17, 2008)

love the dosing idea, but wouldn't we need some monitoring device that controlled the doser? and what?


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## Phinxter (Sep 17, 2008)

could use a digital weekly timer to turn it on for X amount of time every 3 days and as long as the pump is set to deliver say 1.7 ml in 10 minutes and the timer is set to run the pump for 10 mins every 3 days then yer good as gold as long as the pump dont get all crazy and deliver a lethal dose or worse yet the timer fails to run the pump at all and then you got nasties in yer nutes ... dunno if i would trust my pathogen control to a timer


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

jesus, I hope the pumps work better than their website... slooooooow

They look like the right tool for the job, with chemical-resistant Teflon, Kynar & glass components. They look well made, at least the right stuff is there for good durability. 

I've seen other pumps, of the peristaltic type, which are much simpler. They use a snail cam which rotates against a calibrated length of flexible tubing to measure the fluid. This sort is common in medical applications. It seems to me that a length of tubing, being the sole solution contact surface and easily replaced if needed, is going to be more reliable in the end than a collection of valves and a diaphragm. 

95 squid is a lot of dough, but not outrageous. Only you can judge if automating the task has any practicality. If you're so slack that you can't be bothered with doing it between tank dumps, it may be worth doing. 

When selecting the pump capacity, remember that pHDown is effective in very small quantities. You may not be able to get a pump which dispenses as little as 5-15ml/day. If that's the case, you can dilute the pHDown in a quantity of water and math out the dosage depending upon the volume of water used.


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 17, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You might increase your dosage rate. What you're applying isn't killing the core pathogen load. Try a one-time dose of 50% grade @ 5ml/L (8.5ml for 35%), then return to 1ml/L (or 1.7ml/L for 35%) every 3-4 days, see if it doesn't cooperate. If you're using a flood system, pour about a litre or so of the high dose soln through the tops of the plants to assure that all of the rootmass is being treated.


The only thing I haven't done is to pour concentrated soln through the pellets & existing roots. I though that may kill-em-all, so to speak!



> I haven't seen the Hanna pumps. Got a link?





> After all, we're stoners here and remembering to do certian tasks can be somewhat beyond us.


I had links but forgot to put them in...damn!

HANNA Instruments Dosing Pump, w/ Timer

and

HANNA BL 7916 pH Controller + Dosing Pump, BL7916

The dosing pump is doable...the pH controller is actually not too bad, but out of reach at the moment - if you know what I mean!




> There's a couple of causes of rising pH. Rockwool will do it as a result of some residual limestone dust in the material. This is one of the reasons that one should soak RW cubes used for cloning in a 5.0 soln for 24h and fully drain the cubes with a salad spinner before plugging stems in them.


Next time I'll soak em, not just "dip" em!



> It is not practical to presoak RW floc as it's hard to sufficiently drain the material of the presoaking soln. When I was using pots stuffed with only RW floc, a .1 rise after the 1x/day flood was the norm. I shot the pH a bit low, 5.6 usually (in the fond hope that the actual rootzone pH would be 5.8 ) and corrected tank pH down when it got over 6.0. pH is a lot more stable with my present media, Fytocell.


I don't use floc. I root seedlings in 1.5" cubes, then place them in 5" net baskets, in Hydroton pellets. The 5" baskets are put in 2gal flood buckets w/pellets. I too have been shooting low (5.5-5.7), and now that the cubes are up out of the flood zone, the plants are improving every day. The pH still keeps climbing, though....



> Another very common cause of rising pH is pathogens in the system, notably pythium and fusarium.


I figured that's what the primary source of the rise is...but can't seem to kill that crap off no matter how much I clean, or concentrate the H2O2 soln.

On 9-15 I (again) drained and cleaned out my hydro system. Added approx 135L H2O, than I added 1000ml H2O2. I left the plants out of the system overnight, and I let the system flood every 2 hours until 0600. Then I added another 250ml H2O2, waited 20 min, added nutes, and let the system sit for another 2hours. At about 1100 I corrected pH to 5.8 and at 1200 I began flooding the system @2hour intervals until 2200 hours, lights out at 0 hour.

After I added the H2O2 to the water that came out of my tap, the soln sounded like I had poured a glass of soda. Is that normal? The soln actually gets milky before it gets clear. The milky look appears to be oxygen being released into the water...maybe consuming pathogens in the spring water? Could we have a huge pathogen load in the water here that I am having a problem overcoming? That's why I let it sit in a concentrated soln overnight before doing anything else, hoping to kill off the pathogens.

Thanks Al!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> love the dosing idea, but wouldn't we need some monitoring device that controlled the doser? and what?


The Hanna pump has a flow rate control, but you're right, it seems like a timer may be needed in some cases. They are rather slow, perhaps accurate down to 500ml/day in constant operation from what I see. Wouldn't be too hard to have a timer run it for 6h to get a 125ml dose.



Phinxter said:


> or worse yet the timer fails to run the pump at all and then you got nasties in yer nutes ... dunno if i would trust my pathogen control to a timer


yep, that's the most likely failure scenario. Good quality digital timers are your best hope as they don't forget when to do stuff if there's been a power outage. However, I've had bad copies of otherwise long relied-upon digital timers.


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 17, 2008)

Phinxter said:


> could use a digital weekly timer to turn it on for X amount of time every 3 days and as long as the pump is set to deliver say 1.7 ml in 10 minutes and the timer is set to run the pump for 10 mins every 3 days then yer good as gold as long as the pump dont get all crazy and deliver a lethal dose or worse yet the timer fails to run the pump at all and then you got nasties in yer nutes ... dunno if i would trust my pathogen control to a timer


One of the dose pumps has a timer built into it. HANNA Instruments Dosing Pump, w/ Timer



Al B. Fuct said:


> jesus, I hope the pumps work better than their website... slooooooow


yes...that website is SLOWWWW!!!



> I've seen other pumps, of the peristaltic type, which are much simpler. They use a snail cam which rotates against a calibrated length of flexible tubing to measure the fluid. This sort is common in medical applications. It seems to me that a length of tubing, being the sole solution contact surface and easily replaced if needed, is going to be more reliable in the end than a collection of valves and a diaphragm.


Here are some of those peristaltic pumps:

Rola-Chem Chemical Feed Pumps
Stenner Peristaltic Metering Pumps

I think it would just be a math equation to figure out how long to run the pump to put 250ml H2O2 into the soln, then just pgm a digi timer for every other day, or so.



> If you're so slack that you can't be bothered with doing it between tank dumps, it may be worth doing.


yeah. I'm a stoner, slacker. AND this would simplify my life. Now I need $250.00 for the pump and $25.00 for a digi timer.



> When selecting the pump capacity, remember that pHDown is effective in very small quantities. You may not be able to get a pump which dispenses as little as 5-15ml/day. If that's the case, you can dilute the pHDown in a quantity of water and math out the dosage depending upon the volume of water used.


I would not try and do this on a simple 
"daily" dose. I would pop the $$$ for the digi ph meter/dose pump setup.
HANNA BL 7917 ORP Controller + Dosing Pump, BL7917 I know first hand what a pH error does, and how long it takes to recover from!!!

Thanks Al. I'll fade back into the woodwork until I get into another pickle!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

corral hollow kid said:


> The dosing pump is doable...the pH controller is actually not too bad, but out of reach at the moment - if you know what I mean!


yeah, $760 is way fat cash. 



> Next time I'll soak em, not just "dip" em!


Yep, and make sure to drain that 5.0 soln fully. The soln you drain from the cubes will probably be 5.8-6.0. 



> I don't use floc. I root seedlings in 1.5" cubes, then place them in 5" net baskets, in Hydroton pellets. The 5" baskets are put in 2gal flood buckets w/pellets. I too have been shooting low (5.5-5.7), and now that the cubes are up out of the flood zone, the plants are improving every day. The pH still keeps climbing, though....


If in pellets, which are pretty pH neutral/unreactive, I would not shoot low. 



> After I added the H2O2 to the water that came out of my tap, the soln sounded like I had poured a glass of soda. Is that normal?


No, it's not normal. 



> The soln actually gets milky before it gets clear. The milky look appears to be oxygen being released into the water...maybe consuming pathogens in the spring water? Could we have a huge pathogen load in the water here that I am having a problem overcoming?


yeah, I think you're on to something. Spring water? Does your tapwater come from a bore/well instead of a municipal water treatment plant?

If you see fizzing when adding H2O2 to plain water, it is reacting with organic molecules and as you suspect, breaking down and releasing its oxygen. There may be enough organic matter in the water to fully consume the H2O2 before it ever gets to your plants. 

If you're on a bore, you should look into a water quality analysis. I don't think I'd drink this stuff until I knew more about what is really in it.


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 17, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> yeah, $760 is way fat cash.


way fat. but doable if it saves my crop cuz I'm a lazy bastard!



> Yep, and make sure to drain that 5.0 soln fully. The soln you drain from the cubes will probably be 5.8-6.0.


OK. Will Do. Salad spinner, eh?



> If in pellets, which are pretty pH neutral/unreactive, I would not shoot low.


OK. Will Stop Doing. 



> No, it's not normal.


dammit!



> yeah, I think you're on to something. Spring water? Does your tapwater come from a bore/well instead of a municipal water treatment plant?


no, our subdivision actually taps a natural spring and feeds a holding tank, then it's fed to the house. no treatment. no chlorine. nothing but water, and evidently a bunch of other stuff too!!!



> If you see fizzing when adding H2O2 to plain water, it is reacting with organic molecules and as you suspect, breaking down and releasing its oxygen. There may be enough organic matter in the water to fully consume the H2O2 before it ever gets to your plants.


again, dammit!



> If you're on a bore, you should look into a water quality analysis. I don't think I'd drink this stuff until I knew more about what is really in it.


I haven't been drinking it for years. all bottled water.

Thanks for your time and input, Al. I'll keep fighting with this and I'll let you know if I can find the last water analysis report.

Keep the faith!


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## holmes (Sep 17, 2008)

You might have answered this question already al, can you tell me what you think of light movers?, have you used them?
and cool tubes, only worth if your using a 1000 watt bulb?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

corral hollow kid said:


> Salad spinner, eh?


yep, cheap & easy way to remove almost all the soaking soln.



> no, our subdivision actually taps a natural spring and feeds a holding tank, then it's fed to the house. no treatment. no chlorine. nothing but water, and evidently a bunch of other stuff too!!!


Eeek. I can tell you right now that there's a colony of pathogens in that holding tank.



> I haven't been drinking it for years. all bottled water.


Good move. 



> Thanks for your time and input, Al. I'll keep fighting with this and I'll let you know if I can find the last water analysis report.


That'd be a lot better for you to know than me, but I'm still curious to know what's in the stuff. 

Naturally, my H2O2 dosage figures presume that the make-up water is clean and pathogen free. If you have to do the water treatment plant's job for them, you're going to have to raise the H2O2 application rate and probably dramatically. 

I'd start with a litre of water and add 5ml of H2O2, mix it & wait until it stops fizzing. Then add 5ml more and see if it fizzes again. Keep going until you get no more fizz. Then you know how much H2O2 per litre to use to at very least have pathogen free water to start from. 

I have this suspicion that your bore water is re-infecting your grow every time you get it sterilised. 



> Keep the faith!


Hell of a thing to say to an atheist.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

holmes said:


> You might have answered this question already al, can you tell me what you think of light movers?, have you used them?


I've commented previously on light movers to a person who asked about building one:



Al B. Fuct said:


> Light movers are not a good thing, anyway. It's better to have a stationary lamp that suits the size of the space you're trying to light rather than trying to spread light out over an area that is really too large for that particular lamp.
> 
> With movers, you have a new figure to contemplate; lux-hours (lumens per sq metre per hour). When a mover has the lamp over one end of the grow, it's not over the other. You have to derate the amount of light the plants are getting owing to the mover having the light elsewhere for a certain amount of time.
> 
> ...





holmes said:


> and cool tubes, only worth if your using a 1000 watt bulb?


Cooltubes are useful in any op with HID lighting of any size. They forcibly cool the lamp and keep that cooling air separate from the grow room airmass, making temps much more controllable and steady.


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## VictorVIcious (Sep 17, 2008)

Buy the cool tube, build the reflector. As Al pointed out the cool tube has a cord and socket no reason to buy a reflector.https://www.rollitup.org/do-yourself/109209-diy-batwing-reflector-cool-tube.html This one is 39" by 24". VV


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 17, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Hell of a thing to say to an atheist.


I was thinking  kinda faith...no offense meant.

Thanks again for all your help...time, etc.

I'll follow your suggestions about water treatment, and I've been considering getting a second 200L holding tank so I can pre-treat and hold a decent quantity of H2O. I cut my res qty back from 140L to 100L. I want to see if trying to control a smaller qty of H2O makes any difference...I usually want more H2O, but in this case it may help.


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## newportbeach949 (Sep 17, 2008)

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/110795-hindu-skunk-hydroponics.html


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

corral hollow kid said:


> I was thinking  kinda faith...no offense meant.


none taken. 



> Thanks again for all your help...time, etc.


no worries 



> I'll follow your suggestions about water treatment, and I've been considering getting a second 200L holding tank so I can pre-treat and hold a decent quantity of H2O.


Probably a good idea, all things considered. 



> I cut my res qty back from 140L to 100L. I want to see if trying to control a smaller qty of H2O makes any difference...


Nope, the volume won't make any diff. If you can't control pathogens in a 140L tank, you'll have no more luck with 100L.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2008)

newportbeach949 said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/110795-hindu-skunk-hydroponics.html


Is that the rare subcontinental stinker with the red spot on the forehead?


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## grandpabear3 (Sep 17, 2008)

al these beauties are about 3 weeks away from being ready. and they are indeed all thanks to you. just wanted to share with you what you helped me create. thank you


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 18, 2008)

looking mighty good, bugs. Right on schedule for a plant in wk5.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 18, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> .https://www.rollitup.org/do-yourself/109209-diy-batwing-reflector-cool-tube.html This one is 39" by 24". VV


noice woik, VV.


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## ZEN MASTER (Sep 18, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Thanks
> I'd say it's harvest time. 10wks is about right for soil.
> 
> 
> ...


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## newportbeach949 (Sep 18, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Is that the rare subcontinental stinker with the red spot on the forehead?


haha


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## Fman (Sep 18, 2008)

How do I tell if I have a pathogen prob.?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 18, 2008)

ZEN MASTER said:


> Would that be for both the sativa and the indica?


From your description, they're both pretty well ready. You could leave the sativa to flower another week if you like, though. 



> auto ak-47, [...] have you ever tried that strain?


No, the AK47 that I grew was a manual and had a dodgy clutch, too. 

In all seriousness, I wasn't overly impressed with AK47. It's one of those strains where the hype far exceeds the reality.



Fman said:


> How do I tell if I have a pathogen prob.?


Easy! Are you running a hydro op with no pathogen control? Congratz, you have a pathogen problem! Don't wait until you have root disease before organising some means of pathogen control.


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## fitzyno1 (Sep 18, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Well, it _*does*_ make sense, but I don't think I can claim this one!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My next grow will be flood and drain like yours, but for the mean time, i'm doing this grow in 8 X 5 gallon buckets and a 90L rez. The only problem i can forsee is what we're discussing. 
I've thought of turning the net pots round every other day, but i am going to LST them to the lids (eye hooks screwed through the lids).

The only other option i've just thought of, is square 3" PVC piping. The buckets are 13" high, if i cut lengths of 10" square piping, and at one end i cut out 2.5" squares from the sides, leaving the corners, hot glue that 1mm mesh around where i cut the squares out. Then glue that end over the exit pipe. I will have 3 inches clear of an overflow at the top. If the root happen to clog the mesh it will go down the overflow PVC pipe. 
Or am i just pissing against the wind?


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## NewGrowth (Sep 18, 2008)

Hey Al I have a question about you light placement in your grow room. Are your lights at a set height? I know you have two 1k's over four tables and from your pics it looks like you just placed them in between both tables. Also I know you use H202 in your rez, any thoughts on ultrasonic foggers? I have used them for a couple of years and they seem to be pretty effective at pathogen control as well. Thanks al


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 18, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> The only other option i've just thought of, is square 3" PVC piping. The buckets are 13" high, if i cut lengths of 10" square piping, and at one end i cut out 2.5" squares from the sides, leaving the corners, hot glue that 1mm mesh around where i cut the squares out. Then glue that end over the exit pipe. I will have 3 inches clear of an overflow at the top. If the root happen to clog the mesh it will go down the overflow PVC pipe.


Well, you can have a try, hard for me to picture what you're proposing. I think you may just wind up watching it very closely to catch it if it clogs...



NewGrowth said:


> Hey Al I have a question about you light placement in your grow room. Are your lights at a set height?I know you have two 1k's over four tables and from your pics it looks like you just placed them in between both tables.


My refs hang from Easy-Roll yoyos, which allow rapid change of the lamp height. Most of the time, the plants come up to the same height, so lights can stay where they are for the most part. I maintain about 300mm spacing between the cooltubed 1000s and the nearest leaves.



> Also I know you use H202 in your rez, any thoughts on ultrasonic foggers? I have used them for a couple of years and they seem to be pretty effective at pathogen control as well. Thanks al


Foggers will have no effect whatsoever on pathogens. 

When I have messed with them in the past in aeroponic systems, I found that they were not tolerant of nutrient solns. Even submerged constantly, they tended to accumulate nute salts on the diaphragm, which eventually caused the fogger to fail. They are rather interesting things but I haven't found a lot of use for them in growing cannabis.


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## NewGrowth (Sep 18, 2008)

Are you sure about the foggers having no sterilizing effect Al? Here is a link NUTRAMIST MODEL 3 FOGGER @ FUTUREGARDEN.COM (they claim it sterilizes the solution) I use the foggers from this site and just clean the diaphragm in between rez changes and replacements are pretty cheap as well. Here is the link for them Ultrasonic Water Fogger-The Mist Maker I also use Ionic nutes which seem to dissolve pretty well in the rez which is recommended with foggers. Thanks for the info Al!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 18, 2008)

NewGrowth said:


> Are you sure about the foggers having no sterilizing effect Al?


Absolutely positive. If there's a sales claim that says they do disinfect solutions, I think you're well within your rights to demand a full refund. 

Think for a moment- what would the mechanism of killing pathogens with ultrasound be? Scare the little beggars off? Drown out their iPods? Annoy them to death? 

You can test this fairly easily. Put a container of freshly mixed nutrient soln in a place that is exposed to light. If you are using tapwater, chlorination will suppress pathogens for 2-3 days. After then, you'll see clouds of gelatinous gack begin to form in the nutes. Those are the droids you're after. Now, drop your fogger in there and come back in a day. Remove the fogger and put in a few drops of H2O2. If you get fizz, there's still a heavy pathogen load in the soln- and I *promise* you that you will get fizz!


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## NewGrowth (Sep 18, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Absolutely positive. If there's a sales claim that says they do disinfect solutions, I think you're well within your rights to demand a full refund.
> 
> Think for a moment- what would the mechanism of killing pathogens with ultrasound be? Scare the little beggars off? Drown out their iPods? Annoy them to death?
> 
> You can test this fairly easily. Put a container of freshly mixed nutrient soln in a place that is exposed to light. If you are using tapwater, chlorination will suppress pathogens for 2-3 days. After then, you'll see clouds of gelatinous gack begin to form in the nutes. Those are the droids you're after. Now, drop your fogger in there and come back in a day. Remove the fogger and put in a few drops of H2O2. If you get fizz, there's still a heavy pathogen load in the soln- and I *promise* you that you will get fizz!


Cool thanks Al I guess I'm switching back to H202. Those things are pretty cool though. I have def seen very nice growth using them instead of misters in aero set ups though. I do clean out my rez with a mild bleach solution when I make changes too so that might be why I have never had any pathogen problems in my rez.


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## Chumlie (Sep 18, 2008)

Oh Know its me again. Whats up? 

Like I said I just got my ph down solution, and Im wondering do you have any advice on how to get the plants back to the happy days before everything went wrong?

Im worried about one of them being totally fucked up. It's top three leave sets are dworf and really scrunged up burnt, crispy looking. Should I cut that off are what?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 18, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> e any advice on how to get the plants back to the happy days before everything went wrong?


Run the nute soln at the correct pH & ppm, change soln every 2 weeks, treat with H2O2 as we have in the past discussed, don't use any experimental methods. 



> Im worried about one of them being totally fucked up. It's top three leave sets are dworf and really scrunged up burnt, crispy looking. Should I cut that off are what?


got pix?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 18, 2008)

Sorry, it's nearly impossible for me to help diagnose anything without pix.


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## ZEN MASTER (Sep 18, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> From your description, they're both pretty well ready. You could leave the sativa to flower another week if you like, though.
> 
> Hey thanks al. i really appreciate the advice. what i'll probably end up doing is following that advice, and go ahead and cut the indicas. OH MY GOD i can't wait. i can just imagine that the sativa is going to be sooooo gooood. because the colas are packed super tight, just as tight if not more compact than the indicas, and ive heard this before but this is the first time i've smelt the stale fruity aroma from some weed. most of the stuff i've gotten for the past 10 yrs has smelled like wet, freshly cut grass that has been stomped in mud, and i'm not bullshitting you on that. so i can kind of equate my excitement level to that of a teenager that "KNOWS", without a doubt, he's getting ready to get his first piece of pussy, so i'm literally knocking on the door with my rubber already on. that's how excited i am.LOL
> Probably do a quick dry and holler back at you with some results in about a week. Thanks dude!
> ...


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## \x0D (Sep 18, 2008)

Hey Al, 
Just wanted to let you know that thanks largely to your advice, the first grow went off without a further hitch.  

Attached are a few pics..

Harvested at diff times,(a bunch of colas arent pictured) but id say prob 3-4oz dry

Thanks again for all the help! 
See you when the next crisis occurs!! (shouldnt be long, next batch is 2 wks in so far.. )

Best as always,

-\x0D


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 18, 2008)

NewGrowth said:


> I do clean out my rez with a mild bleach solution when I make changes too so that might be why I have never had any pathogen problems in my rez.


 Could be... but I think I'd leave out the bleach and use a somewhat strong H2O2 solution (10-15ml 50% or 17-25ml of 35% in 1L water) for sterilising tanks. 



ZEN MASTER said:


> i'm literally knocking on the door with my rubber already on. that's how excited i am.LOL


well, err, umm, I guess that's both good... and more than I _*ever *_needed to know about your sex life. 



\x0D said:


> Hey Al,
> Just wanted to let you know that thanks largely to your advice, the first grow went off without a further hitch.


Good stuff, great to hear. All looks good- but your next will be better.


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## Phinxter (Sep 18, 2008)

Al B. When it comes to clones if after you move them into your op , you have one that just seems to be lagging behind in growth do you just pull it and replace it? or do you let a loser of a plant just ride out the grow and take what you can from it ?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 18, 2008)

I tend to cull 'loser' plants, but I have 23 per crop and can afford to kill a few duds. I don't like manicuring stunted plants; they have just as many bud leaves to trim as the more productive plants but may only yield a fraction of the usual weight. 

No slackers allowed in the flowering space, other plants will make better use of the nutes & light. I'm ruthless. I absolutely won't tolerate a waste of food, light- and my time doing the hated manicuring task...


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## Phinxter (Sep 18, 2008)

agreed ... this clone after transplanting into my op didnt resume growth as fast as the rest and now after a week really seems to be slooooow in growing.
i am not going to waste time diagnosing 1 single plant when the rest have no issues.
i think a cannibuside is in order


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## WeedSeedz (Sep 18, 2008)

hey al,
i've gotten several times that my grow is too large to post online...what do you think is it a bad idea


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## Chumlie (Sep 18, 2008)

Ok Al you said you use Canna ferts. Well I dicided to go with that, and so I went to their Website.....SO MUcH To ChOOSe FroM! Now for a basic op not a simple/complicated as yours is which ones do you recomend.

I may have missunderstood the info on they site, but it seem to be three to four types of ferts. One was for soil but out of the three for hydroponics which do I choose?

All I know on the bad looking plant it looks like the plant has no new foliage comeing out. The top is a solid node with tangled leaves around it then the next three sets of leaves are very tiny(size of little finger's nail). Thats all I can say about that until I get pics.

Feed the Panda, thanks


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 18, 2008)

WeedSeedz said:


> hey al,
> i've gotten several times that my grow is too large to post online...what do you think is it a bad idea


Posting pics of your grow is questionable from beginning to end; it is a calculated risk. If you were ever busted, such pix could be used against you in court. However, if you need help with your grow, it's hard to get any competent assistance without pix.

As long as there's no way to identify you or the grow location from the pix, it's generally OK.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 18, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> One was for soil but out of the three for hydroponics which do I choose?


Depends on the media you are using. There's a Canna product for regular media called Substra and another for coco coir media.


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## bigbuddy (Sep 18, 2008)

hey al,
Longtime fan of all you've shared with us, thanks alot. My question is: i hade a bad breakout out of pythium in my aerocloner, i cleaned the resv. with 35% h202 at a high dose of 25ml/l (with out the clones in) and cleaned the ""goo" off the stems. Can i use the clones that were in the cloner or do i need to make new clones? I also use the h202 for pathogen control, i may have missed a dose... by the way, i used your thread to start a grow with your setup in mind, but i do 6 plants every 5 day off ebb and flow, works pretty well for me just devides the work up, instead of 24 plants every 2 weeks, its more my style...less work a day lol...thanks so much for your time.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 19, 2008)

bigbuddy said:


> Can i use the clones that were in the cloner or do i need to make new clones?


The tips of the stems will probably be rotted. Cut off the rotted material and try again with the cloner having been sterilised as you described. 


> i do 6 plants every 5 day off ebb and flow, works pretty well for me just devides the work up, instead of 24 plants every 2 weeks, its more my style...less work a day


Sounds good to me


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## BigBudBalls (Sep 19, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Posting pics of your grow is questionable from beginning to end; it is a calculated risk. If you were ever busted, such pix could be used against you in court. However, if you need help with your grow, it's hard to get any competent assistance without pix.
> 
> As long as there's no way to identify you or the grow location from the pix, it's generally OK.


New cameras will add in extra data (like the ID tags in an mp3) stuff like focal position, camera model & serial number, (which can be back tracked to you if you registered the cam or paid for with a CC), date, etc. Find a program that removes them. RIU does remove them by default from what I've checked, but I prefer to do it myself.

(I'm on a Mac so my program would probably be useless to you)

Hey Al, that 'hated manicuring task' comment. Before I ever had a harvest I thought, eh, its a labor of love. Now that I have a couple under my belt, glad I only grow a couple plants at a time!

Its kinda like pancakes. When you start, you'll all excited and by the end you hate 'em.
--Mitch Hedberg (RIP)


----------



## gvega187 (Sep 19, 2008)

rofl...i dun git tired of it (trim). BTW bubbles, wtf is that mass of solenoids and co2 canister you have going on there. Did i miss something or did u not say?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 19, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> New cameras will add in extra data (like the ID tags in an mp3) stuff like focal position, camera model & serial number, (which can be back tracked to you if you registered the cam or paid for with a CC), date, etc. Find a program that removes them.


All digital cameras include EXIF data with the image. I'm sure there's dedicated software around for stripping EXIF data, but the easiest way to remove it is to load the img into an editor like Photoshop and save the img. The 'save for web' function in Ps 7.0 is handy. You'll probably want to resize before uploading anyway.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 19, 2008)

Forgot to say well spotted, BBB. I should have pointed that out r/ EXIF in my previous post but simply didn't. I've already worn out my +r on you, will hit you next time I can.


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## BigBudBalls (Sep 19, 2008)

gvega187 said:


> rofl...i dun git tired of it (trim). BTW bubbles, wtf is that mass of solenoids and co2 canister you have going on there. Did i miss something or did u not say?


Oh the solenoid block is gone right now and have a 20lb'er for CO2; closed loop (but mothballed for now). The 'noids got clogged, at least the ones used for watering. But basically automation. I travel a lot and can peek in and adjust most anything from the road.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 19, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> Hey Al, that 'hated manicuring task' comment. Before I ever had a harvest I thought, eh, its a labor of love. Now that I have a couple under my belt, glad I only grow a couple plants at a time!
> 
> Its kinda like pancakes. When you start, you'll all excited and by the end you hate 'em.
> --Mitch Hedberg (RIP)


oh man, it's all like that... it's been 'work' to me for quite a while now. I had a two week break not long back and didn't miss running the op one little bit...


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## grandpabear3 (Sep 19, 2008)

I had a two week break not long back and didn't miss running the op one little bit...


BLASPHEMER !!!! REPENT HERE AND NOW OF YOUR EVIL SACRALIGOUS WAYS !!!!! SPEW FORTH NO MORE LIES EVIL DAWG OF SATAN !!!!

cant wait to get there buddy


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## VictorVIcious (Sep 19, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> Oh the solenoid block is gone right now and have a 20lb'er for CO2; closed loop (but mothballed for now). The 'noids got clogged, at least the ones used for watering. But basically automation. I travel a lot and can peek in and adjust most anything from the road.


 When I worked for a coffee company servicing that equipment they always used a pre-filter, no matter they water quality, maybe you already are, just a thought. VV


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## ZEN MASTER (Sep 19, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> well, err, umm, I guess that's both good... and more than I _*ever *_needed to know about your sex life.
> 
> Ha Ha
> 
> ...


----------



## Chumlie (Sep 19, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> New cameras will add in extra data (like the ID tags in an mp3) stuff like focal position, camera model & serial number, (which can be back tracked to you if you registered the cam or paid for with a CC), date, etc. Find a program that removes them. RIU does remove them by default from what I've checked, but I prefer to do it myself.
> 
> (I'm on a Mac so my program would probably be useless to you)
> 
> ...


Ive been wondering the same thing, but can it also lead back to your computer. Now I know they have it but what is the best way to hide your IP address are anything else that leads back to you?


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## archie6214 (Sep 19, 2008)

What's going on Al, I had a quick couple of questions for you. When I'm taking the clones once they are showing roots through their rockwool cubes and transplanting to their pots do you have to hand water for a couple of days until the roots find their way down into my nutrient soaked pellets? If so, should I just water around the rockwool cube into the pellets? 

Would it be alright to presoak say 100 cubes at a time for 24 hours in 5.0ph water and then store them until ready to use?

Also I read you used denatured alcohol to sterilize your equipment when taking clones. Could one use 35% H202 instead, as I'm not sure where to find denatured alcohol?

Thanks again for all you do!


----------



## wyteberrywidow (Sep 19, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Ive been wondering the same thing, but can it also lead back to your computer. Now I know they have it but what is the best way to hide your IP address are anything else that leads back to you?


 proxy server????that can hide your ip adress


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## All4FreeDumb (Sep 19, 2008)

Hey Al I was wondering where you find the sulfur burner you use and the sulfur and how it works? I an starting to get a white powdery substance on my fan leaves on my Bubbas I think is what you said the burner would help with.Thanks for your time


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## Return of the Spork (Sep 19, 2008)

Proxies were never something I knew much about and when I last tried to use them my speed was so drastically reduced I just couldn't warrant it. 

As far as the camera tags, I was aware my camera added extra info but as far as I could tell there was nothing that could be tracked to me. No serial numbers in mine but now I am worried as I post a lot of pics, more for my reference than others but still. I am a med patient working under the limit of the state minimum allowance. But you know the deal federally. 

Anyways to the question..

Al, if you wouldnt mind going to my last post in my grow journal. There are two pics at the bottom of the layout I had initially, all the plants equally laid out. And then how I moved it last night to take advantage of the light. Since the roots are a day away from starting to grow into the hydroton I really want to get them into a solid position where I won't have to move them. My problem is that if I keep them how they are now, I run the risk of the roots and the branches growing into eachother. So eventually I would like to move them apart. But I would like to take advantage of the arrangement as it is now until that point.

Will I damage the roots if I move them at a later point? Should I look into putting some hydroton in a netpot and put the rw in that to make them easier to move around?

System is Ebb and Flow. Cubes are 6 inch cubes that I halved, so somewhere around 6x6x3. Any other info you may need would likely have been stated in the latest post or in the first post. But since this is more a general question I don't think you even need that info.

Please advise.

Thanks


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## firsttimegroww (Sep 19, 2008)

hey albf 
I heard its bad for the plants if its colder during lights on then lights off.
When my lights are on my temp is about 74 but when lights off its about 78
because i set my lights to be on at night and its alot colder here at night. Is this ok? Or it shouldent be colder during lights on 
Thanks


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## GypsyBush (Sep 19, 2008)

Hey Al... Hope all is well in your world...

Question...

Do the buds themselves need to be in the light...???
Or is it the leaves that should be in the light...???

I have read conflicting info...

I try to arrange things so that the most, of all the leaves are in the light, leaving a few budsites in the shade... is that ok...?

I ended up buying a few more lights locally...

2 x 70 Watt HPS
1 x 100 Watt MH

on top of the 

1 x 35 watt HPS
and an assortment CFLs...

As always, Thank You for your time and patience...

Gypsy...


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 19, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> what is the best way to hide your IP address are anything else that leads back to you?


 Use Tor if you're paranoid, but make sure you strip EXIF data from images you post... and unlike at least one _compleat moron_ on this board, don't put your face in imgs you post.



archie6214 said:


> do you have to hand water for a couple of days until the roots find their way down into my nutrient soaked pellets? If so, should I just water around the rockwool cube into the pellets?


 If you are flooding the pellets up to within 1/2" below the RW cube, they will be damp enough in that 1/2" gap for the roots to find them. However, if it makes you more comfortable, you can handwater the pellets around the cube as you suggest.



> Would it be alright to presoak say 100 cubes at a time for 24 hours in 5.0ph water and then store them until ready to use?


 No. Once you wet the cube, you make it hospitable for pathogen growth. Once soaked and drained of the soaking soln, they are ready for use and should be used ASAP. 



> Also I read you used denatured alcohol to sterilize your equipment when taking clones. Could one use 35% H202 instead, as I'm not sure where to find denatured alcohol?


 H2O2 would definitely sterilise your scalpel, but doing cannabis cuttings leaves some rather oily plant sap on the blade, which H2O2 will not shift. You've seen it, kind of a purplish goo that accumulates on the scalpel as you work. Denatured alcohol aka methylated spirit is 95% ethanol and dissolves oils while it sterilises. It's also great for cleaning your bong. Denatured alcohol aka methylated spirit is found at hardware stores or in the cleaning products area of a grocery store.



All4FreeDumb said:


> Hey Al I was wondering where you find the sulfur burner you use and the sulfur and how it works? I an starting to get a white powdery substance on my fan leaves on my Bubbas I think is what you said the burner would help with.Thanks for your time


 I got my sulfur 'burner' (doesn't really burn, rather evaporates sulfur) from a hydro shop. The sulfur powder itself came from the local hardware store's gardening aisle. I run my 'burner' 2x/day for 8mins, 1h after lights-off and 1h before lights-on. A sulfur burner will completely stop powdery mildew.



Return of the Spork said:


> when I last tried to use them my speed was so drastically reduced I just couldn't warrant it.


 yep, proxies slow you waaaaay down. It's a calculated risk whether or not you use a proxy; how much do you have to lose? Are you a big enough fish for LEO to go to the trouble of jumping through the numerous hoops necessary to get an IP on you by subpoenaing RIU, then subpoena your ISP for your identity from that IP? I've been using pot boards since 1995 or so, usually without proxies. I guess I'm not a terribly big fish. 



> Will I damage the roots if I move them at a later point?


 Arranged as they are, yes.



> Should I look into putting some hydroton in a netpot and put the rw in that to make them easier to move around?


 yep, but not a netpot. Use a standard solid-wall pot with drain holes. This will contain the roots within the pots so they won't knit and can be moved at will. Eliminate the pellets from the tray.



> System is Ebb and Flow. Cubes are 6 inch cubes that I halved, so somewhere around 6x6x3.


 I don't think I'd have used the large RW cubes. I'd have put the 40mm cubes directly in pots of pellets, 1/2" above the flood level. Shouldn't matter now that you have roots out of the larger cubes, tho. 



firsttimegroww said:


> hey albf
> I heard its bad for the plants if its colder during lights on then lights off.
> When my lights are on my temp is about 74 but when lights off its about 78
> because i set my lights to be on at night and its alot colder here at night. Is this ok? Or it shouldent be colder during lights on
> Thanks


I've never heard of any difficulty with warm lights-off and cool lights-on. A thermostat controlling your exhaust blower will solve this 'problem,' but I'm not entirely sure it's a problem. 26C (78.8F) is as warm as it should ever be; your ideal range is 24-26C. Set your thermostat for 25C.



GypsyBush said:


> Do the buds themselves need to be in the light...???
> Or is it the leaves that should be in the light...???


Both, actually. However, fan leaves are mainly responsible for vegetative growth of the plant. Once you're past about 4wks into flower, the fans are not working very hard. You probably could remove fans after wk4-5 of flowering, but I have not tested that theory. 



> I ended up buying a few more lights locally...
> 2 x 70 Watt HPS
> 1 x 100 Watt MH
> 
> ...


Replace them all with a single 400HPS, ideally in a cooltube. You're already using close to the 465W that a 400HPS pulls out of the AC mains. You'll get MUCH more luminous intensity, less heat and better bud density as a result.


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## Return of the Spork (Sep 19, 2008)

Awesome, thanks.

When I starting putting the system together I had drawn from multiple sources of information. But obviously once things were happening sometimes you find out some stuff works for you and doesn't work for you.

I will see about getting some pots today then. At most these will be mothers at maybe 4 feet max, more likely 3. What size pot would you suggest in that case?


Fuck the ask Jorge in HT, we need ask Al


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 19, 2008)

Return of the Spork said:


> At most these will be mothers at maybe 4 feet max, more likely 3.


If you're doing cuttings every 2 weeks, they probably won't be much more than 2', measured from the medium surface.



> What size pot would you suggest in that case?


I use the same 175mm pots for mums as I use in flowering. 



> Fuck the ask Jorge in HT, we need ask Al


You get 'Ask Al' here on RIU, anytime, for free!


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## daddychrisg (Sep 19, 2008)

My god, where have I been? Don't try to answer that....I have some "10 pages" to read to try and catch up with this thread...So glad to see ya back in public service again Al, I am sure I can say that all of us that read your posts were waiting to see what the next saga could be. Seems like this thread is going to be open to the masses, I know you can handle it. Much thanks to ya Al. By the way...I hope my kid never picks up on your tactics, like the one where you suggested that a picture of a ex-partner gets put up to keep a parent out....That is just wrong...Be Well...DCG


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## visceraeyes (Sep 19, 2008)

Al:

Quick question..When should you use the dome when starting to grow?

I bought the dome and the plastic tray..just wondering when i should be using this and until when!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 20, 2008)

daddychrisg said:


> By the way...I hope my kid never picks up on your tactics, like the one where you suggested that a picture of a ex-partner gets put up to keep a parent out....That is just wrong..


yeah, I suck. 



visceraeyes said:


> Al:
> 
> Quick question..When should you use the dome when starting to grow?
> 
> I bought the dome and the plastic tray..just wondering when i should be using this and until when!


Humidomes are normally used in cloning, but I don't use humidomes. See https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html


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## drynroasty (Sep 20, 2008)

Hey Al B, in case you never made it back to my thread, thanks for the words of wisdom. I was aware of what dangers lurked. Thanks though, really.

Hotwater heaters are not toys...


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 20, 2008)

drynroasty said:


> Hotwater heaters are not toys...


yeah, well, explain that to Stoney- he read your post and thought connecting his hot water tank to his grow box was a _*great*_ idea. Thank FUCK he's got an electric water heater.


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## smithy (Sep 20, 2008)

hey Al. Im am a first time grower.I have a flood and drain system and have recently noticed that there is some sort of green stuff on my clay balls.I thought it might of been mould but it smells alot like algae.Do you have any idea as to what it could be and how I can fix the problem.I water every 2 hrs for half an hour.Temps range from 21-26 degrees celcius and humidity is usually around 50%.I have been using cannazym, canna boost, canna rhizotonic and my ph levels are 5.5-6.0. Any help will be appreciated.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 20, 2008)

smithy said:


> hey Al. Im am a first time grower.I have a flood and drain system and have recently noticed that there is some sort of green stuff on my clay balls.I thought it might of been mould but it smells alot like algae.Do you have any idea as to what it could be and how I can fix the problem.


Your nose knows.  It's algae, of course. 

Algae are plants. They need light, water and nutrients. Block light to the pellets, keep the top layer of pellets dry, add more pellets to the pots as needed so there's a dry layer on top. 




> I water every 2 hrs for half an hour.


Too long. You really only need to raise the flood level to the overflow, then shut off the pump, might be 3-4 mins depending on your pump, tray size, etc. Every 2h is fine. Don't water in the last 2h of lights-on unless you have extraordinarily vigorous plants which would otherwise wilt. Plants transpire almost no water in lights-off, so water given just before lights-off will stay in the rootmass overnight. No need for it and can encourage root probs.



> Temps range from 21-26 degrees celcius and humidity is usually around 50%.


Good, good, good. 



> I have been using cannazym, canna boost, canna rhizotonic


I'd delete the Cannazym and use H2O2 50% grade at 1ml/L, applied every 3-4 days. Cannazym is a protein-based enzymatic cleaner and H2O2 will instantly nuke the proteins. H2O2 ought to fix the algae, too. 

Use special care with Rhizotonic. Don't breathe the fumes from it if you've recently eaten. It smells like rotted roadkill asshole. Yuk!  If you are not having root probs, Rhizotonic is probably extraneous... and it's *hugely* expensive. 



> my ph levels are 5.5-6.0. Any help will be appreciated.


5.5-6.0 is broad as a barn. You'll have nutrient lockout probs at either extreme. Are you using pH test strips or some liquid colour matching kit? You need to be able to resolve a measurement to 0.1, centred on 5.8. An electronic pH meter (with calibration solns) is a necessary bit of kit if you haven't got one yet.


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## drynroasty (Sep 20, 2008)

LOL @ Al B. Stoney needs to do some research.

You got some good stuff in your posts man. Would you consider moving to the vacant condo across the way, here in Socal and be my neighbor like on that super gay show "Home Improvement" and give me advice about my babies.

Thanks man


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## Chumlie (Sep 20, 2008)

(Al B. Fuct)Use Tor if you're paranoid, but make sure you strip EXIF data from images you post... and unlike at least one _compleat moron_ on this board, don't put your face in imgs you post.


How about my hairy ass instead....Al?


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## Chumlie (Sep 20, 2008)

Sorry by the double post, but let me try to get this in my head. First doesn't algae in your tank cause foam, and so to have algae you have to have light hiting the water.
Well if it isn't algae what else cause foam? Is it pathogens?

I want to do an exact replica of your sea of green, yet this time I think Im going to have to make a cloner or some seperate device to grow from seeds. So anyways say I wanted to make a cloner and I wanted it to be passive should I do like just water culture are maybe...maybe some type of wick system.

I don't know about the wick as a cloner Im still doing research. Thanks for the tip on TOR


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 20, 2008)

drynroasty said:


> Would you consider moving to the vacant condo across the way, here in Socal and be my neighbor


No offence, but in all truth, no. I don't want to be anywhere near the USA. Some redneck once said to me 'MURKA! Love it or leave it!!' and I thought that on balance, that was a pretty good idea. 



Chumlie said:


> Sorry by the double post, but let me try to get this in my head. First doesn't algae in your tank cause foam


Algae appears as a green slime, sometimes in the tank but commonly on media surfaces which are frequently wetted and exposed to light. 



> Well if it isn't algae what else cause foam? Is it pathogens?


It'd be some sort of biological activity. Hit it with H2O2 and see if it goes away. 



> So anyways say I wanted to make a cloner and I wanted it to be passive should I do like just water culture are maybe...maybe some type of wick system.
> 
> I don't know about the wick as a cloner Im still doing research.


I've tried aerocloners, DWC cloners, simple water cloning as you might do with a sprig of peppermint in a glass of water on the windowsill and god knows what else. The most reliable method I have ever worked with is 40mm wrapped RW cubes in a temp-controlled clonebox with a heatmat. 


Details here: https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html


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## Chumlie (Sep 20, 2008)

This maybe a stupid question...do you water them by hand or spray there foilage, are what?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 20, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> This maybe a stupid question...do you water them by hand or spray there foilage, are what?


If you follow the link in my last post, you'd have that answer. I put the link there for a reason, not just to turn the text a pretty red colour. 



smithy said:


> cheers for that al b.


no wucking furries, mate.


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## peanut81 (Sep 20, 2008)

my fan leaves are dying buds look healthy as well as the leaves around the buds only 11 days in to 12 12 need some advice 
this is my 1st grow
room 6x6x8 
light 1000 watt hps 
tray 6x4 
res 50 gal 
co2 1500 ppm
flora nova bloom 4-8-7 
general hydroponic (gh)floranectar 0-0-1
gh florablend .5-1-1
gh kool bloom 0-10-10 
gh floralicious plus 2-.8-.02
mad farmer nuts 
started 12/12 on 9/9/08 floods 7 times during light period once 6 hrs into dark period
temp 77 ph at 5.8 nutes at 1300 ppm
also earth juice microblast foliar spray
thanks in advance for any help


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## VictorVIcious (Sep 20, 2008)

ok, so how do you balance those clones in those cubes in that tray?? wtf, 40mm holding up 250mm. mine tip over and over and over.....quite laughing, I waited two years to ask, I don't think anyone asked that one yet??
my temps dropped about 2 degrees with the aircooledbatreflectedfugging furnace instead of 2 of the 4-8bulb t-5's, following your directions total invested $570 with the 200cfm in-line duct fan, 6" lines. hanx for the help, can't rep ya yet, you know the drill. VV


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 20, 2008)

peanut81 said:


> my fan leaves are dying buds look healthy as well as the leaves around the buds only 11 days in to 12 12 need some advice
> this is my 1st grow
> room 6x6x8
> light 1000 watt hps
> ...


*sigh* Severe nute burn, probably fatal.

The melange of different fertilisers & bloom additives is fully unnecessary and is the direct cause of this destruction. *MORE is NOT better.* There's a bell curve to this- too little, just right and *dead.* 

All you need is standard nutes @ 1400ppm, pathogen control and adjustment of pH to 5.8 (after mixing nutes, since most nutes contain pH buffers) as required. 

I don't see any pathogen control in your list, should be applying H2O2 50% grade at 1ml/L applied every 3-4 days.

If you use bloom (P&K) additives, they get used for 1 week only, in wk 6, and with the regular nutes backed off to about 50% of usual EC, but only ONE additive.

Foliar feeding is not generally necessary unless there's root damage preventing nutrient uptake via the roots.

Never flood during lights off. Avoid flooding during the last 2h of lights on unless plants would otherwise wilt.

Hope you have mother plants in good nick so you can get a new batch of plants. I'm afraid these are most likely toast. 

You can try leaching them with plain water until the runoff is the same ppm as the water you're leaching with, then no nutes for at least 7 days, but I'm not hopeful. 

Sorry...


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## Phinxter (Sep 21, 2008)

Al B. harvest time is fast approaching say 3 weeks and i will be making my swap to hydro.
depending on your advice i will be either do a 3 x 3 ebb & flow tray or since i work in the construction trade i have access to 6 inch drinking water grade pipe.
what are the drawbacks to using 6 inch pipe for ebb & flow beside the obvious cleaning issues?
my system will only be about 38 inches x 38 inches square so the holes should be close enough together to make cleaning easy enough.
i just dont know other potential drawbacks and you input is greatly appreciated


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 21, 2008)

Phinxter said:


> what are the drawbacks to using 6 inch pipe for ebb & flow beside the obvious cleaning issues?


If you cut holes to drop pots in the pipes, consider any limitation on flood depth. Not a screaming worry with highly absorbent media but if you're using pellets, you'll want the ability to flood as much of the pellet mass as possible without wetting the RW cube if you used them in cloning. 

Trays are nice because you can move plants around as it suits you. They're not that exxy, either. I pay $53 for 900x900mm trays, they last 2-3 years, sometimes longer, but they develop cracks eventually.


----------



## smithy (Sep 21, 2008)

hey Al. I was just wondering if you knew if it ok to transplant plants that have been flowering for 1 week out of my hydro into pots with soil? Cheers


----------



## flipsidesw (Sep 21, 2008)

Hey Al, Thanks a bunch for this thread!

Would you say that there isnt a yield difference between different hydroponic methods including aero systems?Yield all about light and enviornment control yes?
Does dissolved oxygen = bigger buds? if yes enough that an experienced grower would see big difference from an ebb and flow to an aero set up?(flowering clones.) I guess a better question would the extra maintence of aero out weigh the ease and reliablility of ebb and flow's.

Ive read lost of ur posts and i know ur not a big supplement guy but what do you think about liquid karma?

If 2 plants of the same strain grown under same condtions, only 1 would be under a 600 and the other under 1000w would the yeild be noticabley different aswell as density. Or would the 1000 just be able to grow more plants.

H202 and canna are the only things u use in ur res?


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## Phinxter (Sep 21, 2008)

Al B. a couple questions i know you have answered but i cant find them via search
1. what is the outside diameter of the 900mm x 900mm tray with stand as i am limited to 990mm x 990mm sq 
2. what size pump do you use ... feel free to use metrics i can convert
3. how long is your pump cycle on. ie: how long to fill the tray.
4. i know you use canna nutes . is it "aqua" and something about "PK" in flowering do you still use this combo. "already answered the PK bit on the next page"
5. is aquarium grade silicone necessary for sealing the fittings to the tray or will any silicone do it ? i would assume aquarium silicone is just a fancy name for silicone ?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 21, 2008)

smithy said:


> hey Al. I was just wondering if you knew if it ok to transplant plants that have been flowering for 1 week out of my hydro into pots with soil? Cheers


Disturbing the rootmass in flowering sounds like a patently bad idea. It's rather likely you'll stunt the plant through transplant shock, caused by damage to the finer roots. 




flipsidesw said:


> Hey Al, Thanks a bunch for this thread!


no prob. 



> Would you say that there isnt a yield difference between different hydroponic methods including aero systems?Yield all about light and enviornment control yes?


You're quite right. They are all just fancy ways of watering the plant. The vast majority of the influence on yield is light, ventilation and proper nute strength. 

However, the more O2 you can get to the roots, the more vigorous the plant will be, in degrees. Flood systems with plants in pots of pellets will yield as well as any other method, but a flood with pots of RW floc may not do quite as well due to reduced ability to get oxygenated nutes through the rootmass frequently. 



> Does dissolved oxygen = bigger buds?


In a general sense, yes, but...



> if yes enough that an experienced grower would see big difference from an ebb and flow to an aero set up?(flowering clones.)


I would be hard pressed to discern between plants grown in an aero vs pots of pellets in a flood sys.



> I guess a better question would the extra maintence of aero out weigh the ease and reliablility of ebb and flow's.


There's very little difference between a flood with pots of pellets (or even Fytocell) and aero/dwc. Where flood systems always win is in failsafe reliability. One lost crop in a DWC due to a pwr failure negates any performance advantage it may have in theory. 



> Ive read lost of ur posts and i know ur not a big supplement guy but what do you think about liquid karma?


What's in it?



> If 2 plants of the same strain grown under same condtions, only 1 would be under a 600 and the other under 1000w would the yeild be noticabley different aswell as density. Or would the 1000 just be able to grow more plants.


I've run 600s before and they yield fine density, the main difference being that 1000s will, as you said, do more plants and also will more consistently make dense buds all the way down the stalk. By no means to 600s make any popcorn, but when you're on the limits of foliar penetration, the 1000 has an advantage, particularly when in cooltubes, so lamp-leaf spacing can be minimised. 



> H202 and canna are the only things u use in ur res?


That's the lot.


----------



## flipsidesw (Sep 21, 2008)

Botanicare Liquid Karma Metabolic Growth Stimulant Quart - Plantlighting Hydroponics

On the back of the bottle its says derived from: fermented yeast extract and kelp seaweed extract.ALSO CONTAINS .01%Humic acid derived from leonardite
.01%Aloe Vera extract
.01%Yucca extract


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 21, 2008)

The only item in that list which could possibly be of benefit is the seaweed extract and that only for some micronutes, which should be present in your regular nutes anyway.

Yep, it's a magic sauce, containing mostly water but also significant amounts of profit, which remains with the retailer when the buyer leaves the shop.


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## flipsidesw (Sep 21, 2008)

How much are you getting off of one those plants on the flood tables in ur sog pics?dry weight i mean..

Do you use any UVB in ur op?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 21, 2008)

flipsidesw said:


> How much are you getting off of one those plants on the flood tables in ur sog pics?dry weight i mean..


1-1.25z per.



> Do you use any UVB in ur op?


Nope, but I do use some UVC. 

The postulation that cannabis makes THC as a result of exposure to UV is unsubstantiable. It's more likely that the THC & resin are a defence against insects and browsing animals. Many plants make neurotoxins which dissuade animals from eating the plant. Boy did cannabis ever stuff it up, if the plan was to run us off.


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## flipsidesw (Sep 21, 2008)

U cant get 4 of those in a square foot can you? 

To a certain degree can you put multiple strains in the same ppm. Say 3 different indicas that are 8wk flowering strains.


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## paperfetti (Sep 21, 2008)

sup AL,
was wondering if i can achieve the SOG tec. with the smallest setup (probably answered this a million times),but i have 2 homebox S and wanted to basically keep small plants in there and have 1 for vegg (DWC SETUP) and 1 for flower (multispectrum cfl's with bubbleponics setup 12 pods)..sorry but im using cfl's and bubblponic setup (smell noob all over me )...for the moms im using 3 DWC buckets (3 DIFF. STRAINS)and will make cuts from them.i have a two 6 planter bubbleponics (12 pods,was only gonna grow maybe 10 at a time)..so basically what i was gonna do was take cuttings from mom every 2 weeks (until 10 pods in bubbleponics had clones in them) was gonna take 2 cuttings from mothers each (2X3=6) bcuz ill have 3 diff strains in DWC SETUP.so thats 6 cuttings in 1 bubbler..was gonna wait 2 more weeks and take another set of cuttings,take the same six cuttings but only use the best 4 sticking with using 10 (maybe using all 12 pods will be 2 crowded)...do u think i will create a small sog type setup with this or is this isnt just enough space for all that activity in a small grow tent??


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## Chumlie (Sep 21, 2008)

hey iIm going to read again see if I can find it. If you say its there then it has to be there, and I gues I just read pass it.


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## bigbuddy (Sep 21, 2008)

hey al, got another question for ya, i have (2) 4x4 ebb and flow tables, 1 for weeks 1-4 and another for 4-8. Currently i use foxfarm nutes, but wanna change cause one part is organic and i cant use h202..with that said i would like to use the canna line, what should i use in each tank? thanks again for all your help.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 21, 2008)

flipsidesw said:


> U cant get 4 of those in a square foot can you?


 Yep, in 140x140mm pots.


> To a certain degree can you put multiple strains in the same ppm. Say 3 different indicas that are 8wk flowering strains.


 Yes, as long as these strains grow at similar rates. The problem with mixed strains in SoG is different heights. If they finish up at similar heights, no wucking furries, maaaate. 



paperfetti said:


> sup AL,
> was wondering if i can achieve the SOG tec. with the smallest setup


Sure, SoG is scaleable. However, whatever space you have is filled with as many pots as you can pack in. 


> do u think i will create a small sog type setup with this or is this isnt just enough space for all that activity in a small grow tent??


Space isn't your problem, but the CFLs ARE a problem, and not because flowering with them marks you as a noob. They will not suit a SoG grow due to their poor foliar penetration. SoG is fully dependent on the high foliar penetration ability of HPS light. I would not attempt a SoG with fluoros. 



bigbuddy said:


> i would like to use the canna line, what should i use in each tank? thanks again for all your help.


I use Canna Flores, 1400ppm @ 5.8 in all flowering tanks. 

I'm still trying to work out the correct dosage for PK13-14, which is normally applied in wk6 for 1 week only, but unfortunately every time I use it, I get K toxicity and so have stopped using it for the time being. 

I have inquired of Canna to get their word on what to do with the regular nute strength while using PK13-14, but they have not replied. I've inquired of them before and *also* been ignored- this _*does not*_ make Al B a happy motherfuckin' camper.


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## peanut81 (Sep 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> *sigh* Severe nute burn, probably fatal.
> 
> The melange of different fertilisers & bloom additives is fully unnecessary and is the direct cause of this destruction. *MORE is NOT better.* There's a bell curve to this- too little, just right and *dead.*
> 
> ...


thank you even if it is bad news i was at work last night when i got home i did what you said. i do have 3 mothers waiting was planning on making more clones to get ready for the next grow this week . what i did find out was i was 1300 ppm ec x 500 which is what my hydro store guy told me to do when i told him my leaves are yellowing on the bottom but thanks again for your help i will let you know how it goes.how many times do you recomend i flood every 12 hrs of light (well 10 not in the last 2 hrs)also does more co2 mean more nute need to be available for the faster growth


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 21, 2008)

peanut81 said:


> when i got home i did what you said.


Hope it has some effect. 



> i do have 3 mothers waiting was planning on making more clones to get ready for the next grow this week .


*phew*  Good news. 




> what i did find out was i was 1300 ppm ec x 500


Sorry, what's the 500?



> .how many times do you recomend i flood every 12 hrs of light (well 10 not in the last 2 hrs)


For small plants in pellets, you can flood 5x/lights-on, up to the flood level then shut off, of course with the flood level 1/2" below the RW blocks. Large, vigorous plants can be flooded to overflow then shut off, every 2h beginning at lights-on, avoiding watering in the last 2h as previously stated.

I see some clear tubing running around your pots- what's that for?



> also does more co2 mean more nute need to be available for the faster growth


When you have a proper CO2 system, that is to say one which measures gas concentration and meters out the gas accordingly to maintain 1500ppm as well as controls exhaust blowers and/or aircon units, you can allow temps to rise to 29C and can run the nutes a bit hotter (~1800ppm) as well. If you are using a makeshift CO2 system and can't be assured of the CO2 concentration, I would not bump up the temp or nute strength. 

Be very careful with the advice you get from hydro shop clerks. Some have quite a bit on the ball but it's more likely that you will encounter a salesman who will tell you what you want to hear until you part with your cash. If someone really knows their way around a grow op, it's more likely they'll be running one rather than tending the counter at a shop.


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## Phinxter (Sep 21, 2008)

did you miss me 2 pages back now??
you answered 1 of my questions already about the PK but still had a few others not answered ... your help is greatly appreciated


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## paperfetti (Sep 21, 2008)

I got a mh cool tube just for flowering will that help small sog and kept the cfl for vegg...ANOTHER THING :whats your take on this CO2 BOOST stuff..i would love to try it,but would like some input..the things ive read from other users were on a 50/50 scale,some say trash some say ok for small grow


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## peanut81 (Sep 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Sorry, what's the 500?
> 
> .


i have a bluelab truncheon nutrient meter one side does ppm(x700)








the other ppm( x 500) 






my 1300ppm reading in x 500 was actually 1820ppm in x 700



Al B. Fuct said:


> I see some clear tubing running around your pots- what's that for?
> 
> .


it is the halo for the co2 i know that it is heavier than air and people usually put them above but my exuast is pulling air through a carbon filter that is hanging 6 inches from the ceiling then through the light creating a vacuum that i have to maintain to keep the smell under control because i live in an apartment so i cant turn the fan off so i thought with the air getting pulled up i should put the co2 below i have a regulator set at 1.cfh(not .1) to compensate for the exuasted co2 it is at 1500 ppm i have tested it 3 times the same guy at the hydro shop told me to start it 1 hr after the lights come on and stop it 1 hr before the lights go off if you would change any thing about this please let me know


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## snipsnip (Sep 21, 2008)

i have a quick q? for u i know u get this alot and i am glad u are here and sharing your brain..... your clones are huge ( stem mass and leafs ) how do u keep them from turning yellow , drooping and looking bad . i take 3" cuttings use rockwool 1" for cloning and dome and tray and they always turn yellow curl .
also i use soil and i think i am having drainage probs. my plants got huge when flipped them to 12/12 they are over 6'. so heat from the light does not reach the soil sometimes it 2 to 3 days before i can water again....what can i use next time to help with water draining and soil drying.
thanks in advance
snipsnip


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## Lobo69 (Sep 21, 2008)

I was wondering if I am using perlite as a stand in for the fytocell ( I can't seem to find it where I live...), should I add a small amount of vermiculite to the mix to increase water absorption? If so, how much do you think I would need? Thanks.

Lobo


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## Phinxter (Sep 21, 2008)

_Snigsnip while you are waiting on Al B. to answer you can check his thread on how he clones it answers everything about how he clones and even why he does this _
https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-...-rockwool.html here is the link


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 21, 2008)

Phinxter said:


> did you miss me 2 pages back now??
> you answered 1 of my questions already about the PK but still had a few others not answered ... your help is greatly appreciated


I did miss it, sorry about that. Been very busy this w/e, surprised I've found any time at all for the cannabis board. 



Phinxter said:


> 1. what is the outside diameter of the 900mm x 900mm tray with stand as i am limited to 990mm x 990mm sq


Will take that query on notice, I'm too busy at the mo to go measure them. Will look later. 



> 2. what size pump do you use ... feel free to use metrics i can convert


Previously was using 400L/h pumps, recently pu tin some 2000L/h pumps to make draining faster. 




> 3. how long is your pump cycle on. ie: how long to fill the tray.


The 2000L/h pumps fill the trays in under 2 mins. 



> 4. i know you use canna nutes . is it "aqua" and something about "PK" in flowering do you still use this combo.


I use Canna Flores & Vega. 

I have stopped using the PK-13-14 additive until I get some information back out of Canna regarding dosage. I have not been able to use it at all without cooking plants at well below Canna's recommended 1-2ml/L labelling. 



> 5. is aquarium grade silicone necessary for sealing the fittings to the tray or will any silicone do it ? i would assume aquarium silicone is just a fancy name for silicone ?


Any RTV silicone should be waterproof.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 21, 2008)

FYI, I have got a lot of things on my plate right now. Queries are coming in faster than I can answer them at the moment. Please be patient.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 21, 2008)

peanut81 said:


> i have a bluelab truncheon nutrient meter one side does ppm(x700)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't see anything in these photos. Why post something so blurry and dark?


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## Phinxter (Sep 21, 2008)

yep yep i know you are busy and i would have waited a week for answers if needed.
just knew it was passed over. 
as always your OP comes first and foremost and i am greatly appreciative for your time and expert answers.
thanks for everything you do here at RIU.
and PS. the search seems to be working now, so i will in the future try to make use of that over taking up your valuable time


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 21, 2008)

Phinxter said:


> yep yep i know you are busy and i would have waited a week for answers if needed.
> just knew it was passed over.


Sorry about that, sometimes they come in so thick and fast I just miss one or two.



> as always your OP comes first and foremost and i am greatly appreciative for your time and expert answers.


Right now, it's just come on to spring in earnest and I am trying to get my veg patch in. 



> thanks for everything you do here at RIU.


Any ol' time... that I have the time. 


> and PS. the search seems to be working now, so i will in the future try to make use of that over taking up your valuable time


I don't mind answering q's when I can keep up, but whatever you can find out on your own does save me some time.


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## paperfetti (Sep 22, 2008)

AL,
i appreciate what your doind,RIU should send you some seeds from nirvana or something,but anyway i had  question on previous page will check up in a few days i know your bizz.


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## drynroasty (Sep 22, 2008)

Al B.,

In your opinion, should I run 1-250w MH for veg, or...
1-250w MH +(plus) 1-250w HPS for veg?


I understand the concept of which light is better for which stage, but am unsure if the combined 500w is better.

It appears that when I run 250w MH alone, the babies stretch a bit, but with both on, they grow wider. Would you agree?

Heat is not an issue.


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## firsttimegroww (Sep 22, 2008)

hi albf i was reading through this thread and saw that im having the same problem as CALIGIRL. 
Im almost done with week 2 of flowering and my plants are strethching alot. Im doing SOG, after clones have rooted straight into flower. under 1kwatt hps. about 15in. above the plants. temps from 
72-78F. My ppm is at about 500 right. 

only thing i can think of is if my ppm is to low would it cause them to stretch? Or could it possibly be my lights? Im using a high output hps bulb?

HELPPP!!! PLEASEEEE


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## ricky ronatello (Sep 22, 2008)

Al b fuct in the ass by the cops...a l b fuct heheheh


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## archie6214 (Sep 22, 2008)

Hey Al I thought I read some where you keep your freshly cut clones in the dark for the first six hours or something like that. Could you tell me what your lighting schedule is for your clones? I just finished building my clone box and am ready to take my first batch of clones!!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 22, 2008)

paperfetti said:


> AL,
> i appreciate what your doind,RIU should send you some seeds from nirvana or something,


Hey ROLLIE- you see dat? How bout some beans, bro? 



> but anyway i had question on previous page will check up in a few days i know your bizz.


 yep, another one got past me. Sorry about that. 



paperfetti said:


> I got a mh cool tube just for flowering will that help small sog and kept the cfl for vegg...ANOTHER THING :whats your take on this CO2 BOOST stuff..i would love to try it,but would like some input..the things ive read from other users were on a 50/50 scale,some say trash some say ok for small grow


 I'm a little concerned about the MH for flowering. MH can cause excessive leafiness in flowering. Swap that for an HPS. 

Makeshift CO2 generation methods are all dodgy. Unless you have set up the room for CO2 and have a proper tank, reg & controller (one which measures CO2 concentration in air, doses accordingly and controls fans and/or aircon units), it's not really worth doing. Makeshift/chem reaction methods yield unknown and highly variable amounts of CO2. If you don't know what the gas concentration is and are not controlling it closely, it's not going to be of any verifiable benefit. 



drynroasty said:


> Al B.,
> 
> In your opinion, should I run 1-250w MH for veg, or...
> 1-250w MH +(plus) 1-250w HPS for veg?


 I'd set the MH up over your mother plants- I wouldn't use it in flowering. Every time I've seen someone flower with MH, there's been excessively leafy bud development.



firsttimegroww said:


> hi albf i was reading through this thread and saw that im having the same problem as CALIGIRL.
> Im almost done with week 2 of flowering and my plants are strethching alot. Im doing SOG, after clones have rooted straight into flower. under 1kwatt hps. about 15in. above the plants. temps from
> 72-78F. My ppm is at about 500 right.
> 
> only thing i can think of is if my ppm is to low would it cause them to stretch? Or could it possibly be my lights? Im using a high output hps bulb?


 I don't recall offhand what caused CG's stretch... If I recall correctly, she might have had some high air temps causing the legginess. Your temps are OK, tho. Low light is the other usual cause of stretch, but you have lots of light with a 1000 at 15". 

Your nute strength *is* pretty low at 500. That's the only parameter in your list which is out. Raise that to about 1400, hopefully it'll make a difference at this late date. Clones can cop 1400 straight out of the clonebox.



ricky ronatello said:


> Al b fuct in the ass by the cops...a l b fuct heheheh


Who the heck do you think you are, Abner Louima? 



archie6214 said:


> Hey Al I thought I read some where you keep your freshly cut clones in the dark for the first six hours or something like that. Could you tell me what your lighting schedule is for your clones?


My clonebox fluoros run 24/7, except, as you note, for their first 6h immediately after cutting, when I let them have a little darkness to allow water uptake through the stem cut to begin. Stops any wilt. Thanks for reading carefully and paying attention.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 22, 2008)

And speaking of Rollie (aka user 'rollitup', our beloved RIU admin), he asked me if I would like to be a RIU moderator the other day. I'd like to thank everyone who nominated me. However, I have politely declined the offer. 

I was a mod/Mentor on Overgrow.com (the crustier old bastards amongst us will remember the legendary OG) from 1999-2005. It was fun for a while but eventually became a weighty task. It started to take over my life. 

Right now, I'm really right at my limits of what I can cope with, between running my own op and other obscure aspects of real life. If I committed to being a RIU moderator, I would feel some obligation to get on here & be available regularly. I'm sorta able to do that now, but who knows what will be happening next week or next month. I'd rather I remained a very unofficial RIU contributor so no one is all that put out if I find cause to disappear. 

Annnnd speaking of disappearing, I have a lot on my plate between my op and getting my veg patch in (spring has sprung!), so I'm going to be scarce and perhaps a bit more terse than usual for a while.


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## NewGrowth (Sep 22, 2008)

I miss OG Al. I would like RIU to be as good as OG was . . . c'mon pleeeese


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## CustomHydro (Sep 22, 2008)

I wish it was spring here! The only good thing is the weather is cooler so I will have some time to tune my op in w/o worrying bout heat stroke.


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## archie6214 (Sep 22, 2008)

Hey Al I had one more question. I'm taking my first clones off my mums to determine their sex. When they are in the clonebox and eventually set root, can I just switch the flouros to 12/12 and sex them right in the clonebox? Also should I hand water them flowering nutes at 1400ppm until they show sex then transplant the fems to my tables? Thanks again for everything!!

Also when I am shaking the excess presoak water out of the cubes how much should they weigh would you say, approx 20grams or so? I tell ya one thing I'm deffinatally investing in a salad spinner after this batch!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 22, 2008)

Sorry, here's a couple more I missed....



snipsnip said:


> your clones are huge ( stem mass and leafs ) how do u keep them from turning yellow , drooping and looking bad . i take 3" cuttings use rockwool 1" for cloning and dome and tray and they always turn yellow curl .


You're keeping your RW cubes too wet. The stem tips are rotting and stopping water uptake. See https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html The humidome may also be causing problems. I don't use them. 

 

My clonebox actually has a vent fan (at upper left), which runs on a thermostat (hidden behind plants) set for 30C. There is a passive air intake down low, also behind the plants in this pic, which I cover in the colder months. I don't control humidity, only air temp. 


> also i use soil and i think i am having drainage probs. my plants got huge when flipped them to 12/12 they are over 6'. so heat from the light does not reach the soil sometimes it 2 to 3 days before i can water again....what can i use next time to help with water draining and soil drying.
> thanks in advance
> snipsnip


I'll warn you in advance that I'm not a soil guy. However, I can tell you that you can solve that problem by watering less often. Don't water until 50% of the water weight has gone. 

You've found the primary disadvantage of soil- you cannot introduce oxygenated nutrient soln frequently. Dissolved O2 in water will dissipate in about 24h (or less), meaning that overly absorbent media will allow water to stagnate (lose all O2) before you can water again. This is why we use media in hydroponics which (usually) can tolerate frequent watering, or no media at all in the cases of aero & dwc. 



Lobo69 said:


> I was wondering if I am using perlite as a stand in for the fytocell ( I can't seem to find it where I live...), should I add a small amount of vermiculite to the mix to increase water absorption? If so, how much do you think I would need? Thanks.


No, I don't think I'd add anything to make it more absorbent, for the reasons I just covered in the last para. If your plants suck up so much water that they need watering more often, water them more often. Your timer will thank you for giving it a job.  The only reason to use a highly absorbent medium is when you cannot look in on your op every day and need a failsafe in case of a pump/timer failure. 



archie6214 said:


> Hey Al I had one more question. I'm taking my first clones off my mums to determine their sex. When they are in the clonebox and eventually set root, can I just switch the flouros to 12/12 and sex them right in the clonebox?


You could, but remember that those plants which have been exposed to 12/12 won't be useful as replacement mums. There would be a very significant reveg time before they would grow in full veg mode. If they're female, there's your first batch to flower & harvest in 8 weeks' time. 


> Also should I hand water them flowering nutes at 1400ppm until they show sex then transplant the fems to my tables?


Handwatering is best for clones. They won't need any nutes until after they have roots, but once they do have a few roots, they will adore some food. They'll do OK on 1400 under HPS, but with fluoros, that might be a bit strong. Plants' nutrient requirements are lower under low light or lower temps. Keep it to about 700-800 while they're under the flos. 



> Also when I am shaking the excess presoak water out of the cubes how much should they weigh would you say, approx 20grams or so?


Yeppers, 40mm wrapped cubes weigh 5g dry and 20-25g when just 'damp.'



> I tell ya one thing I'm deffinatally investing in a salad spinner after this batch!!


Poor you... bit o' the tennis elbow going there? I know that all too well... 

I destroyed the plastic gears in my salad spinner some months ago. Had to run a bolt through the drive mechanism and put a couple of nuts on it, jammed against one another, so that I could drive the spinner with a cordless drill.


----------



## snipsnip (Sep 22, 2008)

al,
So do u think adding permilite or somthing to that effect with my soil next time will help with the drainage prob. i tried hydro grow and i was terrible took plants and put them in soil...wich is what i am growing now. they are over 6 ft 4 weeks flowering and there is also not much heat getting to the pots from the lights also not helping with the soil drying out.
i know u are not a soil guy what do u recommend adding though to help with drainage and drying .
thanks
snipsnip


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 22, 2008)

snipsnip said:


> al,
> So do u think adding permilite or somthing to that effect with my soil next time will help with the drainage prob.


What's permilite?



> i tried hydro grow and i was terrible


If you have the right equipment, hydro is easy peasy. Stick around, the next time you want to have a go with hydro, you ought to be able to find enough data around here to make it go pretty well. 



> took plants and put them in soil...wich is what i am growing now. they are over 6 ft


yikes, how tall were they when you stopped vegging? Plants continue to grow vegetatively, though with the veg habit tapering off, for the 1st 4 weeks of flowering, when they will stop gaining vert height and throwing out branches. As you are finding, tall plants are not the indoor grower's friend. 



> i know u are not a soil guy what do u recommend adding though to help with drainage and drying .


About all you could do, and I _*don't*_ recommend you do so, is repot them with some less absorbent materials. If you repot with them this far into flowering, I strongly suspect you will stunt them and get less yield than if you just let them be. Harvest what you get at wk 10 and try something different next time.


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## CustomHydro (Sep 22, 2008)

snipsnip said:


> al,
> So do u think adding permilite or somthing to that effect with my soil next time will help with the drainage prob. i tried hydro grow and i was terrible took plants and put them in soil...wich is what i am growing now. they are over 6 ft 4 weeks flowering and there is also not much heat getting to the pots from the lights also not helping with the soil drying out.
> i know u are not a soil guy what do u recommend adding though to help with drainage and drying .
> thanks
> snipsnip


That would help a lot. I would recommend a 50 50 mix, but it's perlite.


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## CustomHydro (Sep 22, 2008)

Hey Al, what u growing in the veg patch this year? 
I grew a ton of mellons last year. Didn't check em for 2 weeks cuz it was raining every other day. By the time I made it to check em they were all toasted by powdery mildew. It would rain at night, and get real humid in the am when the sun came up.


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## snipsnip (Sep 22, 2008)

they were about 1.5 ft when i flipped them
i have about 50 clones 
16 are about readdy to go into flower
and 34 still trying to root
i will be flowering at 8 inches for sure.
i think i might ty flood and drain ....i have about 5.5 ft of head room i have to do dome figuring ...maybe reses outside the room or somthing.
thanks for the help
snip


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 22, 2008)

CustomHydro said:


> Hey Al, what u growing in the veg patch this year?


hmm

tomatoes: Beefsteak, Roma, Grosse Lisce, cherry
Kitchen herbs: basil- Greek, Italian, Thai & purple, tarragon, coriander, dill, garlic chives, onion chives, parsley (Italian), dill, Vietnamese mint, peppermint, rosemary, thyme
eggplant
passionfruit
butternut pumpkin
cucumber, Lebanese
beetroot
sweet corn
spring onion
spinach, English
snow peas
green beans (Blue Lake stringless)
capsicum (aka bell pepper)
leaf lettuces - rocket (aka rocquette aka arugula), Lollo Rosso, Mignonette
sunflowers (I love toasted sunflower seeds )
habañero pepper



> I grew a ton of mellons last year. Didn't check em for 2 weeks cuz it was raining every other day. By the time I made it to check em they were all toasted by powdery mildew. It would rain at night, and get real humid in the am when the sun came up.


fack. I'd have hit them with a lime sulfur spray in late afternoon and reapply after each rain.


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## CustomHydro (Sep 22, 2008)

I could have saved em hey... I knew sulfer something would do it... I saw what the sulfer burner did for your plants... 

Anyways WOW! u grow all that too, u are a gardening machine! U grow all that from seed? U have a nice setup outdoors as well as indoors. Must be workin a monster patch to support all that! GL with everything, and have a good spring. I'll throw u a link to my grow in a few weeks when I get the SOG going, just to c what u think...


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 22, 2008)

CustomHydro said:


> I could have saved em hey... I knew sulfer something would do it... I saw what the sulfer burner did for your plants...


yep, PM hates high pH & sulfur raises the pH on the leaf & stops it dead. 



> Anyways WOW! u grow all that too, u are a gardening machine! U grow all that from seed?


No, I'm a slacker and I buy seedlings. 



> U have a nice setup outdoors as well as indoors. Must be workin a monster patch to support all that!


It's not that big, about 4m x 6m, but can be very productive...


early in the season 




a bit later




view from the other end


 

How about this 12 foot cherry tomato plant? 450+ fruit. 



> GL with everything, and have a good spring. I'll throw u a link to my grow in a few weeks when I get the SOG going, just to c what u think...


k thx, looking forward to it.


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## CustomHydro (Sep 22, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> How about this 12 foot cherry tomato plant? 450+ fruit.


WTF!!! I have never seen anything like that in my life.
Those leaves are gian-ormous!!!
Mine were barely neck high stretched out. Amazing, just amazing!

I'd love to see what size buds u could grow outdoors!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 22, 2008)

heh, I tended that cherry tomato plant with a stepladder. Next time, I'm growing them horizontally... 

I'd love to grow outdoors, no way in hell will I risk it, tho. 

annnnnd right now, while I'm *jaw jackin'* witchy'all, these...

 


are NOT getting put in HERE:

 



Just finished replacing the stacked concrete block wall with the timber & posts, total bastard digging post holes in solid sandstone... but it's done and I gotta get planting!


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## NLXSK1 (Sep 22, 2008)

I put this in its own post but after reading your instructions I am going to include it here as well..


I have read about 147 pages of your FAQ and it is impressive...

I am going to name my first male child Al with his middle name Bfuct... 

Anyway, I was thinking about your vortex cavitation issue when the pumps stop and get air stuck into the pump chamber. As you said, simple is better.

So.... Why don't you just poke a tiny hole in the side of the pump line just above the pump outlet? It should not affect the filling of the tray significantly and once the pump shuts off and the vortex finishes then the tube should leak nutrient water into it to the level of the resevoir.

My only thought would be that the hole would eventually clog, but it may minimize the issue.

I dont know if anyone has ever suggested this fix... Let me know...


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 22, 2008)

That's a very good idea, but I think the hole would have to be in the impeller cavity, because that's where the air bubble is. 

I have since solved the problem by orienting the pumps so their outlet points upward. When I was having the problem, the pumps were lying on their side due to excessive fill hose length, which was necessary to be able to move the pump to a corner of the tank when draining. I shortened the hoses, oriented the outlet upward and the problem has not recurred. 

Thanks for thinking about this one, tho!


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## DeweyKox (Sep 22, 2008)

Hey Al, what type of ballast do you use digital or old school? I need to buy a 600W and don;t know the difference. Thanks, love this thread by the way....

And what about brand of bulbs, does this matter a whole lot, just curious what brand you use.


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## holmes (Sep 22, 2008)

Hi al, thanks for sharing your knowledge.
so i just finished reading an article about a hot shot grower up in canada, who bought an isolated house and turned it into a grow setup, he mentions how he tried to get a local electrical supply to sell him electricity off the meter i guess, but they didnt want to. So he stole it basically, i was under the impression that stolen energy could somehow be traced. if done safely, could this work without anyone noticing?, forget about possible meter checks and stuff like that. 
anyone with information, pitch in.


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## Phinxter (Sep 22, 2008)

Holmes ... NADA very bad idea.
the power company knows how much power gets used and when that doesnt match up to there billing records they start to narrow it down and sooner or later they find you stealing power.
and when they do they will have a warrant to search your place. so not only do you go to jail for growing but you get extra time and a HUGE fine for stealing the electricity.
always pay your power bill on time and everthing will be fine.


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## Phinxter (Sep 22, 2008)

also on a side note Al B. nice looking garden . the cherry tomatoes ... very impressive.
aslo i am glad you chose not to be a mod. when people help out for the love of helping out is a lot different than when it becomes something you do because you feel obligated to do.
i think you are right in that sooner or later that feeling of obligation would have made your time her more of a ball and chain.
get your garden right and help out when you can. we will of course miss your valuable input while you spend time in your own garden and grow op but thats better than having you gone for good.
i own a music related forum and used to love helping people out but sooner or later people get to treating you like you owe them something because you are a MOD.
needless to say i hate my own site to such a point i rarely ever use it anymore.
we will all just be greatful for the time you do spend with us and your excellent advice.


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## holmes (Sep 22, 2008)

thanks, im too chicken to do anything like that. But i still want to know how they know. they have meters at a residence to READ them for power consumption, if they know how much is being used from say a meter before the meter, then whats the point of having a meter . Not only that, millions of watts are used up in large cities by the minute, the power used for a small room, i imagine would be like finding a needle in a hey stack.
So how do they know?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 22, 2008)

DeweyKox said:


> Hey Al, what type of ballast do you use digital or old school? I need to buy a 600W and don;t know the difference. Thanks, love this thread by the way....


Ballasts are current limiters. It's far easier to accomplish this (in an electronics engineering sense) with a coil of copper wire on a laminated iron core than it is with semiconductors, as is done in electronic ballasts. A coil of copper wire will always be more reliable than semiconductor junctions with control circuitry and a bunch of soldered connections. It's not at all unusual to see 20 yr-old plain ol' 'magnetic' ballasts, mine are 10 yrs old. 

Electronic ballasts save about 9% in AC mains power used due to the absence of eddy currents which occur in the laminations of an iron cored ballast inductor, causing said laminations to get warm or hot. While the price of electronic ballasts is coming down, it'll take a long time to recover the cost difference between a mag and an electronic with the relatively minimal power savings. 

I've tested a Lumatek 600 side by side with a std ballast, using the same HPS bottle. There is no difference in the luminous output from the tube with either ballast, despite some sales claims of up to 30% more output from the electronic. 



> And what about brand of bulbs, does this matter a whole lot, just curious what brand you use.


I wouldn't buy the cheapest tubes in the shop. I've had some Chinese bargain barrel 1000 HPS bottles which, brand new, only delivered 80% of the output of an 18 month old GE Lucagrow- and I'd never have known without a lux meter as the Chinese generic tubes LOOKED pretty bright. I'm using the GE bottles for now, thought I'd try some Sunmasters when I relamp next year. I've used Sylvania 1000s before with fine results as well.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 22, 2008)

holmes said:


> Hi al, thanks for sharing your knowledge.


no prob 



> if done safely, could this work without anyone noticing?


First of all, there's absolutely no safe way to steal power. You can't turn off the service you're connecting to and have to wire it hot. Second, if bridging out a metered service, it's one of the very fastest ways to be detected, 3 months max. I can't speak to 'isolated' whole house grows, but I see whole house busts go down about 2-3x a week in my area.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 22, 2008)

holmes said:


> So how do they know?


You're right that there's lots of unmetered paths between your local substation (which does have metering) and the service legs in each neighbourhood. If the line tech suspects a problem, he just puts an amprobe on the service drops he knows should be there and subtracts those figs from the total load on the leg. If his maths don't add up to the total load on the leg, he knows the difference is being skimmed off. The techo can also throw the main switch on all the panels on a leg and check to see if there's still a current draw on the leg. 

In other words, yes, the techo has to go looking for them, but 'leaks' can be found in a system audit. Power theft relies on security by obscurity and depends on the techo being a slacker. 

It's never a good idea to steal power. Grow small and grow for years.


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## snipsnip (Sep 23, 2008)

al,
so if i do a sog and i keep plants small 18 -30" how many could u really put per square ft without running into mold issues. I am trying to figure out how big of trays to get based on how many per square. i seem to be leaning tword 3x3 keep room smaller and yada yada 1 400 per 3x3 tray.
what do you think all wise one.
your cuttings u take are they kida woody , or are they tender? 
also how big of pots do you use...in inches if you could?
thanks again!
snip


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## Phinxter (Sep 23, 2008)

Al's trays are 3' X 3' and he puts 23 what look to be 8" round pots. you can see a loaded tray here https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-pics/images/1698/1_albopshot_24082008_04.jpg which works out to be about 2.55 plants per sqft


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2008)

snipsnip said:


> al,
> so if i do a sog and i keep plants small 18 -30" how many could u really put per square ft without running into mold issues. I am trying to figure out how big of trays to get based on how many per square.


4 per sq ft in 140mm x 140mm pots. Get a sulfur 'burner.'



> i seem to be leaning tword 3x3 keep room smaller and yada yada 1 400 per 3x3 tray.


A 400 is just that little bit too small for a 3x3, I'd use a 600 over each or a 1000 over a pair of them.



> what do you think all wise one.


I think if I were really all that wise, I wouldn't be growing dope, but thanks anyway. 



> your cuttings u take are they kida woody , or are they tender?


quite tender, all new growth since the last pass of cuts 14 days or so before. 



> also how big of pots do you use...in inches if you could?


They're 175mm (6.9") top dia, 130mm bottom, 175mm tall, about 4L capacity. 

Learn to love the metric system, it's so much easier to use than feet, inches, gallons, ounces and teaspoons. I mean, can you quote the number of oz in a gallon offhand? If you can, you're unusual.


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## GypsyBush (Sep 23, 2008)

Hey Al... 

You have convinced me...

I am going to switch all my little lights for one real one...

How close can I get a 600 watt HPS, in a 6"/15.2cm cool tube, with a 265 cfm fan...? not an in-line booster, a blower fan...

How about a 400 HPS...

Looking online I see...

600 watt bulb, digital ballast, cool tube w/ reflector $250 + s&h
DIGITAL 600 watt HPS COOL TUBE GROW LIGHT 600w ballast - eBay (item 180175343502 end time Sep-25-08 10:44:33 PDT)


same, but with a 400....$ 250 + S&H
DIGITAL 400 watt HPS GROW LIGHT w COOL TUBE REFLECTOR - eBay (item 180196841206 end time Oct-12-08 14:47:15 PDT)


400 with non digital ballast $189 + S&H
400 watt HPS GROW LIGHT GLASS COOL TUBE Reflector 400w - eBay (item 180180080284 end time Oct-08-08 14:25:49 PDT)

waddaya think...?

Gypsy...


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> Hey Al...
> 
> You have convinced me...
> 
> I am going to switch all my little lights for one real one...


Smart move, you certainly won't regret it. 



> How close can I get a 600 watt HPS, in a 6"/15.2cm cool tube, with a 265 cfm fan...? not an in-line booster, a blower fan...


The electronic ballast isn't worth doing, get the std type. Cheaper, more durable, same amt of light, only minimal power savings with the electronic (apx 9% in a 600). 

A 400 HPS is a good personal smoke op light, a 600 will raise a few more plants. 

You can run a 400 in a cooltube about 150-200mm from the nearest leaves, a 600 can be 200-250mm. The internal reflector in these cooltubes is a bit small, you may want to remove it from the cooltube and add a batwing reflector:


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## archie6214 (Sep 23, 2008)

Good morning Al. I took my first batch of clones last night about 7 hours ago and come to check on them this morning and noticed about half of them drooping ptetty bad. Below are some pics I included to help diagnose the problem. I'm pretty sure it's not over watering as I weighed each cube to 25 grams when plugging the cuttings in. The temps are at 29 degress celcius. I'm guessing they are not taking up water due too some error on my part !! I cut the stem at a 45 degree angle, split it and scraped the bottom inch of the stem. Then, dipped it in some clonex and plugged it into the cubes. As usual Al your expertise is highly appreciated thanks again !!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2008)

archie6214 said:


> about half of them drooping ptetty bad.


I give them a 6 hour dark period immediately after cutting to prevent wilt like this. Did you? If not, it's OK, go shut off the clonebox light for 6h, should resolve. 

Let me know how you go.


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## archie6214 (Sep 23, 2008)

Yeah they had about 7 hours dark as I just turned the light on when I got up out of bed this morning. Do you think I should shut the light off. I did leave the front off of the clone box and my 400 watt mh was on about 8 ft away, would this have affected it at all maybe?


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## CustomHydro (Sep 23, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I think if I were really all that wise, I wouldn't be growing dope, but thanks anyway.


ROFLOL!!! Gotta love when someone just straight up tells it like it is... Tons of respect for that!


> Learn to love the metric system...


Two things america needs to change is our measurement system, and our legal system.


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## archie6214 (Sep 23, 2008)

I forgot to attach the pics, here they are.


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## BigBudBalls (Sep 23, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> It's never a good idea to steal power. Grow small and grow for years.


You should ad that into your sig, like the hide from mom.

I had someone ask me how to steal power in a PM. Someone who I thought was smarter then that. 

I've seen a few write ups on getting power from thin air. Concept is you are picking up the stray fields from th mains. Basically just a long wire. An open core transformer sotospeak. With $50 worth of stuff you could just about light an LED. 

But on a similar vein, I saw a elec generator which would be a great stand-by gen, but used the heat generated to help heat the house. Probably one of the best and practical 'green' items I've seen in a while.

Areas of Denmark, some houses are heated via steam pipes from the elec co/plant.

And so you DO grow in soil! hahah! the cat out of the bag now!

Have you ever been able to get rosemary to grow from seed? I've tried a lot of times with zero results.


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## All4FreeDumb (Sep 23, 2008)

Hey Al, I just picked up one of those sulfur "burners" and there is no directions on how much sulfur to add in the dish, can you help me out?. Also this burner has a way to move the dish closer and further than the heating element, numbered 1-4, how far do you keep the sulfur dish from the heat element? Where do you hang yours, center of room, or does it matter? when the sulfur is being heated up for those 8 min 2 times at night do you have exhaust fans shut down? Thanks again


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2008)

archie6214 said:


> Yeah they had about 7 hours dark as I just turned the light on when I got up out of bed this morning.


bummer. If they still wilted after a ~6h dark period, I'd be concerned about the sterility of the stem cut. What did you use to sterilise your scalpel blade while you were doing your cuttings? Is there H2O2 in the clone watering soln?



> Do you think I should shut the light off. I did leave the front off of the clone box and my 400 watt mh was on about 8 ft away, would this have affected it at all maybe?


I think I might have wanted the door on it. I don't control humidity in my own clonebox, but temporary high humidity in the clonebox will slow down the water transpiration from the leaves until the water uptake via the stem cut starts. If everything's otherwise right, they should catch right on after a 6h dark period post cutting. 

Yep, shut off the light for another 6h, see if they don't perk up. 

If they *don't* straighten up and fly right, re-cut the stems with a terile scalpel (take about 5mm off the ends), plug them back in the cubes, put everybody back in the clonebox and leave the light off & door on, check them again in 6h. 

Worried about this one, let me know how you go.


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## firsttimegroww (Sep 23, 2008)

hey albf i talked to a couple of people and they suggest me instead of putting straight into flower i should veg under t5's for a week or 2 and that should stop my stretching. ( dont know if it would work , but im going to give it a shot) 
So if i do veg for a week or 2 should I still just grow the top cola? and cut the bottem 1/3? What do ya think? thanks


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2008)

CustomHydro said:


> ROFLOL!!! Gotta love when someone just straight up tells it like it is... Tons of respect for that!


 Well, thanks... but that's really how it is when you're dodging Johnny Law. Aside from growing a bit of mull, my life is very stable and non-chaotic. Getting busted would be chaos I just don't need in my world. If I were _*truly*_ wise, I'd find a way to get buds that didn't involve risking the next 20 years in the shitcan. 



> Two things america needs to change is our measurement system, and our legal system.


 Start by changing the government. No third term for the neocons! 

Between illegal wars and running the economy into the dumper by refusing to regulate the bankers and brokers, the US is now a 2nd tier power in sharp decline. The world is going to start dealing in Euros instead of the greenback, a real problem for the US, particularly with the amount of US debt financed by China etc.



archie6214 said:


> I forgot to attach the pics, here they are.


 Ah, I feel a lot better after seeing these. They're not going *too* badly, give them a bit more darkness and they should get their act together in a day or so. Please keep me apprised, though. 



BigBudBalls said:


> You should ad that into your sig, like the hide from mom.


I would, but since I wrote that sig file, admin has limited the sig to 2 lines. I can't even edit the one I have without taking some stuff out of it. 


> I had someone ask me how to steal power in a PM. Someone who I thought was smarter then that.


*sigh* yeah... 



> I've seen a few write ups on getting power from thin air. Concept is you are picking up the stray fields from th mains. Basically just a long wire. An open core transformer sotospeak. With $50 worth of stuff you could just about light an LED.


A common LED needs about 2.5mA of current at about 2.5V. I think it'd take a lot more wire than what you suggest or would have to be in VERY dangerous proximity to an AC distribution leg to induce enough voltage to do anything at all. 



> But on a similar vein, I saw a elec generator which would be a great stand-by gen, but used the heat generated to help heat the house. Probably one of the best and practical 'green' items I've seen in a while.


Oh yeah, there's many clever little gen systems. The one I like the most is a miniature hydroelectric plant. Good if you have a nearby stream or river you can divert to run the thing. Internal-combustion engine driven gen systems can be hazardous to your stealth, no matter where they dump their heat. 



> Areas of Denmark, some houses are heated via steam pipes from the elec co/plant.


Iceland has some fantastic geothermal resources, too, just from pumping water down into hot rocks a couple hundred metres down. 



> And so you DO grow in soil! hahah! the cat out of the bag now!


No, the cat's still in the bag, probably fermenting and composting a little as we speak. Poor, poor kitty!  

If I could justify the expense of running my veg garden in hydroponics, you can bet I'd have a try. However, I _*am*_ able to make an 'organic' (sorta) patch work generally well. I don't mind hitting the patch with 'chemical' ferts and insecticides if it gets results, plus I'm not too fooled by the 'organic!!!' sales pitch. 



> Have you ever been able to get rosemary to grow from seed? I've tried a lot of times with zero results.


Wow, you know, I've never tried. It's just too easy to buy a seedling or nick a fresh growing tip off a good rosemary plant and clone it. I'm not actually having very good luck with the rosemary plant that's in the patch right now. 



All4FreeDumb said:


> Hey Al, I just picked up one of those sulfur "burners" and there is no directions on how much sulfur to add in the dish,


Yeah, mine didn't come with any instructions AT ALL. Kinda sucks...



> can you help me out?.


Probably. Which way did you come in? 



> Also this burner has a way to move the dish closer and further than the heating element, numbered 1-4, how far do you keep the sulfur dish from the heat element?


Mine doesn't have that feature. The sulfur cup sits right on the heating element. 

The correct place to put it is where the sulfur is heated only to its melting & evaporation temp yet does not burn. That will vary by the amount of sulfur powder you have in the cup (more will take longer to heat to evap point) as well as the distance from the heating element as can be adjusted in your 'burner' as well as the on-time you have programmed into your timer. 

With your unit, I would put about 50g of sulfur in the cup, plug it in and measure the time it takes to melt the sulfur. You'll begin to see S vapour emitted at that point. Mind it for another 5 mins or so and assure that the S is not burning. If it burns, increase the distance from the heating element. Once you have worked out the amt of time to melt the S and are sure it's not going to get hot enough to scorch or burn the S, set your timer to that plus about 5 mins. 



> Where do you hang yours, center of room, or does it matter?


If you have plenty of circ fans going in the room, it won't really matter where you put it. 

If you notice accumulation of sulfur on your circ fans, reduce the programmed runtime. It really doesn't take much S to sort out powdery mildew and overdoing it will cause leaf tip burn. 



> when the sulfur is being heated up for those 8 min 2 times at night do you have exhaust fans shut down?


I run my 'burner' during lights-off because the exhaust fans are not likely to be running then. 

Let me know how you go with your 'burner.'


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2008)

firsttimegroww said:


> hey albf i talked to a couple of people and they suggest me instead of putting straight into flower i should veg under t5's for a week or 2 and that should stop my stretching. ( dont know if it would work , but im going to give it a shot)


Bad suggestion. Adding veg time not only will not fix your stretch problem, it'll make it worse. 



> So if i do veg for a week or 2 should I still just grow the top cola? and cut the bottem 1/3? What do ya think? thanks


If you want to do SoG, they get zero veg time post the clones setting root. Prune off any branching on the lower 1/3 of the plant, once at the end of wk1 and again in wk3.


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## archie6214 (Sep 23, 2008)

Yep I used denatured alcohol to dip the scalpel in, and added 1.7 ml/L to 35% h202.


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## firsttimegroww (Sep 23, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Bad suggestion. Adding veg time not only will not fix your stretch problem, it'll make it worse.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to do SoG, they get zero veg time post the clones setting root. Prune off any branching on the lower 1/3 of the plant, once at the end of wk1 and again in wk3.


What should i do to stop my stretching then? So far the only solution iv heard is to add veg time. help!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2008)

archie6214 said:


> Yep I used denatured alcohol to dip the scalpel in, and added 1.7 ml/L [...] 35% h202.


yeah, that's all correct, of course. The cuts should be sterile.

I actually am a lot less worried now I've seen your pix. Should pick up OK in a day or so. Lemme know if they don't. 



firsttimegroww said:


> What should i do to stop my stretching then? So far the only solution iv heard is to add veg time. help!


Adding veg time will only make your plants taller. It will absolutely not _*stop *_them getting taller!

You were running your nutes unusually weak, at 500ppm as you reported on 9/22. What have you done with that? 

No matter what you did, it'll take more than 2 days to show any difference and only the new growth will be affected. Old growth will stay as it is- your plants won't shrink!

Low nute strength is not among the more common causes for stretch, which are high temps and low light. You say your temps are 72-78F & you have a 1000HPS, so those should not be the culprits. Raise the nute strength to 1400ppm if you have not already. 

Keep in mind that plants will continue a tapering vegetative growth habit for the 1st 4 weeks of flowering. They will slowly stop gaining ht & throwing branches, switching fully over to making bud post wk4. During wk1-4 of flowering, you'll usually see a doubling (or more) in height.


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## SomeGuy (Sep 23, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Keep in mind that plants will continue a tapering vegetative growth habit for the 1st 4 weeks of flowering. They will slowly stop gaining ht & throwing branches, switching fully over to making bud post wk4. During wk1-4 of flowering, you'll usually see a doubling (or more) in height.


So Al, this made me think of a question. When should lollipoping be done? first into flower or within the first 3weeks? I know you put rooted clones right to flower (so you may not have to lollipop?). I let mine sit a few weeks as I have smaller moms and thus smaller cuttings.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2008)

SomeGuy said:


> So Al, this made me think of a question. When should lollipoping be done? first into flower or within the first 3weeks? I know you put rooted clones right to flower (so you may not have to lollipop?). I let mine sit a few weeks as I have smaller moms and thus smaller cuttings.


Since the plant continues a tapering vegetative habit in wk1-4 of flowering (while flowering habit waxes), it will continue to throw out branches for that period, which is why I trim off branching in wk 1 and again in wk 3.


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## SomeGuy (Sep 23, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Since the plant continues a tapering vegetative habit in wk1-4 of flowering (while flowering habit waxes), it will continue to throw out branches for that period, which is why I trim off branching in wk 1 and again in wk 3.


Sweet, thanks Al.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2008)

no worries SG 

The SoG method is a little counterintuitive at first. When I was first learning the technique, it was the _hardest_ thing for me to strip the little beggars of branching. However, when the first harvests started coming through, it was such a *blessing* not to have to manicure a bunch of popcorn fluff produced on thin, shaded lower branches. Avg bud size and density go way up when you take the little stuff out of the equation. Air circ is much improved absent the unnecessary branching.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2008)

firsttimegroww said:


> What should i do to stop my stretching then?


It just occurred to me that I have also seen stretch caused by overwatering, notably in very small seedlings. Larger plants which are overwatered don't usually do that; they tend to get root damage which prevents uptake, causing slow growth or a rather wilty appearance. 

Please remind me what your media type and watering system are and what your watering schedule presently is.


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## NorCalBlunts (Sep 23, 2008)

Hey Al, when i search for specific pruning i can't seem to decipher if you mean any branch longer than one inch all the way up the plant or just anything over 1 inch in the bottom 1/3? would you mind specifying?


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## firsttimegroww (Sep 23, 2008)

Thanks Albf 
Im using claypellets the hydrotonrocks, watering every 3 hours during lights on and once during lights off. so 4x during lights on. total of 5x a day. Hopefully the raise in ppm will stop the stretch. thanks albf!


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## smartsoverambition (Sep 23, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I tend to cull 'loser' plants, but I have 23 per crop and can afford to kill a few duds. I don't like manicuring stunted plants; they have just as many bud leaves to trim as the more productive plants but may only yield a fraction of the usual weight.
> 
> No slackers allowed in the flowering space, other plants will make better use of the nutes & light. I'm ruthless. I absolutely won't tolerate a waste of food, light- and my time doing the hated manicuring task...


wow u are one cold blooded mutha fucka lol


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2008)

NorCalBlunts said:


> Hey Al, when i search for specific pruning i can't seem to decipher if you mean any branch longer than one inch all the way up the plant or just anything over 1 inch in the bottom 1/3? would you mind specifying?


 anything over 1 inch in the bottom 1/3. 



firsttimegroww said:


> Thanks Albf
> Im using claypellets the hydrotonrocks, watering every 3 hours during lights on and once during lights off. so 4x during lights on. total of 5x a day. Hopefully the raise in ppm will stop the stretch. thanks albf!


No worries. Eliminate the dark period watering. Transpiration stops in lights off and the water will just sit there in the rootmass. Can cause root rot probs.



smartsoverambition said:


> wow u are one cold blooded mutha fucka lol


Y'all don't know the half of it. You don't want to be a teenager who won't mow lawns or pick up after themself _*anywhere*_ near me.


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## an11dy9 (Sep 24, 2008)

Hey Al, i was wondering if theres a rule for how big of en exhaust fan you should use in your grow room. For example if you room is say 480 cf should you use a 480 cfm exhaust fan? Or is there a rule of say exchange your grow rooms air once every 3 minutes making a 160 cfm fan efficient for a 480 cf grow room? Also you said in a previous post the your exhaust fan should be bigger than your intake fan creating a negative pressure so that any airleaks will seep through the air leaks into your grow room instead of out. (i think i remembered that right??) So how much difference should their be in the amount of air intake and exhaust? Also is it important to keep your grow room as air tight as possible? and do you have any tips to making you grow room as air tight as possible?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 24, 2008)

an11dy9 said:


> Hey Al, i was wondering if theres a rule for how big of en exhaust fan you should use in your grow room. For example if you room is say 480 cf should you use a 480 cfm exhaust fan? Or is there a rule of say exchange your grow rooms air once every 3 minutes making a 160 cfm fan efficient for a 480 cf grow room?


If you are using HPS lighting _with_ cooltubes, a ventilation system (be that a single exhaust blower with passive intake or separate exhaust & intake fans) can move as little as 1/3 of the room volume per minute. Passive intakes should be about twice the area of the exhaust blower i.e. 2x 250mm dia inlets for a 250mm dia exhaust blower to prevent restricting the CFM rate of the exhaust blower. It is often easier to trap light on the inlet if you are using an intake blower as not so large of a hole needs to be light-trapped.

If you are _not_ using cooltubes with your HPS lighting, 1CFM per cu ft of room volume is about right. 



> Also you said in a previous post the your exhaust fan should be bigger than your intake fan creating a negative pressure so that any airleaks will seep through the air leaks into your grow room instead of out. (i think i remembered that right??)


Yep, well remembered. 



> So how much difference should their be in the amount of air intake and exhaust?


The intake/s should be about 80-90% of the CFM rate capacity of the exhaust. You can use idential intake & exhaust blowers and can dial down the intake with a fan motor speed controller from ye localle giante hardwarrre shoppe. Intake blowers can be axials as they are pushing into a low static pressure load. Exhaust blowers can be axials if you are not using a carbon filter or a long outlet duct or one with a lot of sharp bends. If you must use a long bendy run or a filter, select a centrifugal blower. 



> Also is it important to keep your grow room as air tight as possible?


Only if you plan to run a CO2 system. Otherwise, a few leaks, which will leak inward if the fans are of the correct capacities, are no big deal. All air leaving the room will go via the exhaust line and into your carbon filter if using one. 



> and do you have any tips to making you grow room as air tight as possible?


Line it with panda film. Glue panda film joints with silicone sealant. If you want to fix panda film to wood surfaces with a staple gun, staple the film through a small piece of cardboard to prevent the staple pulling though the film.


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## NLXSK1 (Sep 24, 2008)

I am planning a grow trying to duplicate yours on a smaller scale. My flowering area will be approximately 2' x 4'. 

I want to build a clone incubation box and I have bought a heatmat. I will find a thermostat and an 80 - 120 mm fan for the setup as well. My needs will be for up to 10 clones max incubating at one time.

I have studied your box and can probably duplicate it easily but I am wondering if it may be too large for my needs. 

Do you have any suggestions?


----------



## DR. VonDankenstine (Sep 24, 2008)

What's shaken bacon---anything new up in your neck of the woods? Hope your well.


----------



## Old in the Way (Sep 24, 2008)

Hey Al,
Greetings from MURKA-just kidding, though I did just returned from Appalachia...got more than a comment or two from my "O'bama-Vote Irish" Bumper Sticker--I tried to explain to a couple hillbillies he is just like them..they said he was a (insert racial slur here) I said no, no he's white....then I asked them "if there mama was white?" pointed out that his is as well--they didn't see the humor or even the truth in it. HAHA I love politicing with rednecks. Its so easy to get them riled up. Dangerous but easy.

....and WTF. I thought i would catch up on FAQt but 13 pages of posts since I left town on friday.....how do you do it??

Anyway,

I am happy to report that after one month the veg room maintained itself for over 100 hrs during my absence-that will make the next long weekend far more relaxing.

Everything looks great and there are no issues to report. 

Just one question.
starting week 5 (day 31 of veg).
Growth has exploded since changing to a higher quality 2 part nute 8 days back and upping the nutes the day I left to 1400ppm, now the sativa dominant hybrids I have are showing there genes and outgrowing the indicas (obviously). In some cases they grew to within 250mm of the 1kw light--I am fine on light burn with the glass lense and air-cooled reflector but I am seeing this strange rotation of the fan leaves where they are turning vertically throughout a number of the plants during the end of the lights on schedule (was happening last night but not first thing this morning-my only observation periods since getting in). This is most pronounced in the sativa dom. plants but in some of the taller more vigorous indicas as well.

Does this have anything to due my increase in the nutes? (tap water is 140ppm so my 1400ppm is a true 1260. ph drifted up from 5.7 the day i left to 6.0 last night. Back to 5.8 this a.m.)

Can or does this occur from light saturation? 

Or possibly as a response to much of the red spectrum being absorbed (since it looks like a little rainforest with the dense foliage), and therefore the plant is offering more light to the lower branches.

Thanks for your input.
-OitW


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## NLXSK1 (Sep 24, 2008)

Old in the Way said:


> Hey Al,
> Greetings from MURKA-just kidding, though I did just returned from Appalachia...got more than a comment or two from my "O'bama-Vote Irish" Bumper Sticker--I tried to explain to a couple hillbillies he is just like them..they said he was a (insert racial slur here) I said no, no he's white....then I asked them "if there mama was white?" pointed out that his is as well--they didn't see the humor or even the truth in it. HAHA I love politicing with rednecks. Its so easy to get them riled up. Dangerous but easy.
> 
> ....and WTF. I thought i would catch up on FAQt but 13 pages of posts since I left town on friday.....how do you do it??
> ...


Yeah, I think you are a little close... Here is part of a reply from Al somwhere in 200 pages of posts...



> You can run a 400 in a cooltube about 150-200mm from the nearest leaves, a 600 can be 200-250mm.


A 1000 has to be a little further away....


----------



## sparkafire (Sep 24, 2008)

Al you there?? need advice asap 11:43 am 

Ah never mind 1 pm this is what happened and what i did to try to correct the problem i hope i have done the right thing. 

Last night while tending my patch i watered my new plants again by unplugging the tub with my plants that have been in flower 4 32 days so could turn on the new ones. The words unplug and hydro don't work to well together. 

Yes i am on a roll in regards to mistakes lately so yes i closed my room and this morning after 15 hours and driving down the freeway it blasted into my brain that i never plugged it back in... Because i have some water that sits in the tub i am sure the plants didn't start to really dry out for about 8 of the 15 hrs because when i peeked in to look i had only 1 plant that looked really bad and 2 more that were on the way to getting there. All others did not look bad or stressed at all. The roots that were in the bottom of the tub were dry to the touch so i am assuming there is root damage. 

This is what i did. Knowing that they would not last another 7 plus hours i turned on the lights and the water for 15 min my question was going to be. Do i turn on the lights and run it 20 hrs or so give or take an hour or 2 or do what i did and just get everthing wet again with the small amount of time. I do have my new clones in there and they are 2 days into flower. 

I am getting a string for every plug and tying it to my finger so i remmeber its unplugged. I did this with my cloner but got lucky and remembered after 2 hrs. 

Fucking newbies !!! Grrrrrrr


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## SmellsLikeLemonz (Sep 24, 2008)

Hey al, Long time reader, First time writer. 

First id like to say thanks of course, because your advice has been nothing short of incredible/life saving, Lets just say a freind of mine had the impression that his sulfur vaporizer (same as yours) had to be on for 4 hours a day, And you saved him .


Anyway to the point,

I have many questions, 

First in a similar setup like yours but with 2 gallon ebb and gro buckets would it be feasible to put 2 "zero veg" plants into the same pot on either side? split it in 2 kind of? Im just asking because i see quite a bit of room and im sure the roots would figure something out .

second, Any experience with advanced nutrients connessuier? insanely expensive superbloom that i have heard nothing but good things about.

3. Ever heard of the strain c4? If you havent you should find it, and maybe its time to think about switching strains because this strain would explode in SOG, (soon to be proven) and it < smells like lemonz 

4. I also have a little soil op i just switched to loose rockwool/ grow cubes, Should loose rockwool be watered more or less often than soil? it seems the soil holds more water for longer periods of time.

5. I was also tricked into using molasses for a while, my pet fruit flies loved it but my plants didnt seem to react to it .

6. Any suggestions on once and for all getting rid of these damn fruit flies? I have used gnatrol which seems to do nothing but smell bad, H202 which makes them freak out for a second but their always there the next day, I have fogged which obviously took care of the problem, but their back now and im further into flowering and would rather not fog again (i vent to my roof which makes all the critters in my roof want to find a way out into my house when they get hit with poison gas)

7. ( i know, so many, im sorry) To keep spider mites out of my op completely (had them recently grr) what do you reccomend? Running the sulfur burner for longer? getting a UV filter etc? I just want to make sure that even if they get in they will be dead within a day. without hurting my precious babies .

8. A freind of mine had a big spot of mildew on his stalk, yet didnt listen when i told him not to harvest it, What is the possible damage that can cause? Is there any way to really tell if bud is internally "coated" in powdery mildew? 

9. I am seeing, And have been seeing for a while, TINY little bugs, randomly in my flowering plants, That look like microscopic frogs, they dont seem to be doing any harm, They usually chill near the top of the plant, definitely not spider mites. any idea of what they are?

10. (im sorry to get all the way to 10 but this is like having an interview with jorge cervantes ) a freind of mine with a similar setup to you vegged half of his plants for a little over a month in rockwool slabs, The roots of the plants all grew togethor and he had to cut them apart, Now he is trying to transplant them to his ebb n grow but the slabs are huuuge and i told him that obviously the rockwool shouldnt be soaked 5x a day as this would just cause problems, The proper thing for him to do is just kind of set them on top of his hydraton and let the roots figure out where to go (down ) right??

Your helpfulness to the community restores my faith in humanity, Which usually comes and goes as it likes  Its great to know that someone out there is willing to help when he can, especially to such an extreme extent. best of luck to you.


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## snipsnip (Sep 24, 2008)

al, 
a sulfer burner?
i saw u had one but i dont know what they do?
i fugured 3x3 tray with 15 plants or so in 8" pots would i still need a sulfer burner....holy shit thats 60 plants....maybe a 2x2 tray hahahahaa.....
tell me aboutyour burner if you could and were i might get one.
i was trying not to spend much more money i alreaddy have 2 400's so i was just gonna add 2 more, 2x2 trays be better u think for that wattage.
i got perlite yesterday and it seams to be doing better. i planted new clones in a new mix i did not repot my giants. i am debating cutting them (the giants)down and just creating more room for my new ones so they dont end up in the same boat...how much thc is created in the last few weaks i know size is but would it be smokable now. or worth it.
thanks al
snip


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## Phinxter (Sep 24, 2008)

sulpher burners are used to kill / control "white powdery mildew" you usually run them like 2 times for 10 minutes during lights out every few days im thinkin.
if you do SoG the humidity of having that lush rain forest can cause white powdery mildew and a sulpher burner (it doesnt really burn the sulpher but rather vaporizes it) will control that. 
as for do you need 1. you have 2 options 1 being be proactive and stop it before it starts. or wait and see if it becomes a problem and then buy the burner


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## Old in the Way (Sep 24, 2008)

> Yeah, I think you are a little close... Here is part of a reply from Al somwhere in 200 pages of posts...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks NLXSK1, 

I realize this is a bit closer than most and I am familiar with the parameters for the clearance required for the various wattages. I am not concerned about being too close as I can easily adjust height and have seen no signs of burn....but since you aarte willing to effort a response the questions I asked are.....




> I am seeing this strange rotation of the fan leaves where they are turning vertically throughout a number of the plants during the end of the lights on schedule (was happening last night but not first thing this morning-my only observation periods since getting in).
> 
> Does this have anything to due my increase in the nutes? (tap water is 140ppm so my 1400ppm is a true 1260. ph drifted up from 5.7 the day i left to 6.0 last night. Back to 5.8 this a.m.)
> 
> ...


Also Al, I believe i saw a post where you stated you manage to run a 1kw light within 250-300mm thanks to a well conditioned space and a closed vent circuit for the light? I seem to recall this was after the flowering plants maxed out in height prior to stopping vert growth and fully devoting its energy to flower. 
Thanks Again
OitW


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## Phinxter (Sep 24, 2008)

smellslikelemonz ... when it comes to bugs the one site i always use is What's That Bug? Insect identification if you look low on the left side, there is an index of bug types. and if you dont find it, you can post up and ask them. they will answer your "whats this bug" question nearly everytime


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 24, 2008)

NLXSK1 said:


> I am planning a grow trying to duplicate yours on a smaller scale. My flowering area will be approximately 2' x 4'.


 Cool, sounds like a 400HPS is the tool for the job.



> I have studied your box and can probably duplicate it easily but I am wondering if it may be too large for my needs.


 Mine's not really huge; I used an old plywood shipping container, about 1m H x 800mm W x 600mm D. However, you could scale my clonebox to whatever size suits you, as long as there's room for your lighting, heat mat, etc.The box size isn't at all critical.



NLXSK1 said:


> A 1000 has to be a little further away....


I run my cooltubed 1000s at about 300mm from the nearest leaves. Cooltubes really do an amazing job. Without them, I'd not put them closer than about 500-600mm.



SmellsLikeLemonz said:


> Hey al, Long time reader, First time writer.


hi there. 



> a freind of mine had the impression that his sulfur vaporizer (same as yours) had to be on for 4 hours a day, And you saved him .


"sulfur vaporizer" is a MUCH better term for the device. I'l be using that term from now on, thanks for that. 

Good to hear you mob dodged a bullet. 4h/day would have been disastrous. 

Mine did not have ANY instructions included with it, not even in Chinglish. 



> First in a similar setup like yours but with 2 gallon ebb and gro buckets would it be feasible to put 2 "zero veg" plants into the same pot on either side? split it in 2 kind of? Im just asking because i see quite a bit of room and im sure the roots would figure something out .


Yep, that's one _more_ reason why I use tray-based flood systems to water plants in pots of media. Much more flexibility in plant numbers, aside from easy plant mobility within the op, so slow plants can be placed in better light positions or can be picked up and turned around for maintenance. 

Regardless, you have what you have, so let's run with it.  2 SoG pruned plants in each of the 2 gallon buckets would be fine- you might be able to do 4 per. 



> second, Any experience with advanced nutrients connessuier? insanely expensive superbloom that i have heard nothing but good things about.


Nope, can't get AN here in Australia. Any bloom enhancer that really works is going to be P & K based. Beware additives that include anything else. I'm still trying to get some good data out of Canna for the use of their PK-13-14 (NPK 0-13-14) additive- I keep cooking plants with the stuff at half their recommended application rate. I DID get an email from a feller at Canna's Aus distributor last night, have yet to follow up with that, but hopefully I'll be able to shed some light on that soon. 

Use care with grower anecdotes about *any *product unless you can see photos of a parallel comparison, some plants grown with the product and some controls without, in the same crop. 



> 3. Ever heard of the strain c4? If you havent you should find it, and maybe its time to think about switching strains because this strain would explode in SOG, (soon to be proven) and it < smells like lemonz


Well thanks, but I like my lemons to taste like lemons and my cannabis to taste like cannabis.  

I chose Sweet Tooth #4 after growing LOTS of different strains; Big Bud, Power Plant, White Widow, Northern Lights, Skunk #1, a WW & Sk1 hybrid called White Skunk, a reverse parentage hybrid of those two called Skunk Widow, AK47, Legends Ultimate Indica (LUI) and several others. ST4 has a great flavour, solid indica high, is a very heavy producer, but *most* importantly, is very mould resistant, a critically important trait in SoG ops. 

I'm certainly open to trying new strains, but even ordering beans is a serious task that requires a lot of planning (maildrop addy, etc). I have lately (last 12 mos) heard about beans being seized by Aus Customs very frequently... but worst, cops are following up with knock-n-talks with growers stupid enough to order beans to their home addy. I'll keep my ears open for more about C4. If I see some SoG grows using it with some success, I'm happy to have a go. 

Mind you, there's very little yield difference between the very highest producing strains (LUI, Sk1, other primarily indica hybrids). Be careful about hype. Look for growers who are trying a certain strain alongside others in the same op & crop, to get a decent comparison. Too many conditions can change between serial batches of different strains to get a valid comparison. Gotta be side-by-side. 



> 4. I also have a little soil op i just switched to loose rockwool/ grow cubes, Should loose rockwool be watered more or less often than soil? it seems the soil holds more water for longer periods of time.


I ran 175mm x 175mm pots (about 4L) of RW floc in my flood systems for years. It can be watered 1x/day for small plants (wk 1-2 flowering) or 2x/day for more advanced, vigorous plants. Advanced, mature mother plants being raised under HID lighting, with very substantial root systems compared to the amount of media volume, can tolerate 3x/day. 

Yes, it's common for soil to hold much more water than hydroponic media, but that's not really a good thing. It limits the watering frequency. By the time there's enough water removed from soil to tolerate watering again, the water from the last watering will have lost all its dissolved O2. Hydroponics produces more vigorous, faster plants because _less_ absorbent media is used, so to be able to introduce freshly oxygenated nute soln more often. 

You can choose media with differing levels of absorbency depending upon how you want to grow. I used RW floc so I could skip looking in on the op every day. It holds so much water that it will get even a vigorous plant through a day even in the event of a pump/timer failure. Clay pellets, which hold almost no water and have large air gaps between the pellets, can be watered several times per lights-on, starting with about 5x/day for clones just introduced to pots of pellets, up to every 2H (avoiding watering in the last 2h of lights-on) for advanced, mature plants. Keep in mind that if you clone in RW cubes and want to use pellets, the cube must be nested in pellets so it is 1/2" _*above*_ the flood level. 



> 5. I was also tricked into using molasses for a while, my pet fruit flies loved it but my plants didnt seem to react to it .


I'll try to act shocked. 


> 6. Any suggestions on once and for all getting rid of these damn fruit flies?


Use yellow sticky card traps to control adult gnats. When potting up new plants, you can drop the pot into a knee-hi stocking and secure it around the stem with a small, gentle rubber band. Putting a stocking on already infested plants will at least keep them in that pot until you can get rid of it. 


> 7. ( i know, so many, im sorry) To keep spider mites out of my op completely (had them recently grr) what do you reccomend? Running the sulfur burner for longer? getting a UV filter etc? I just want to make sure that even if they get in they will be dead within a day. without hurting my precious babies .


Sulfur & UV will have no effect on insect pests. A 10-30,000ppm blast of CO2 for about 2-3h will kill all bugs in the room. Humans can safely tolerate 30,000ppm for up to 15 mins without a respirator. You might buy a big chunk of dry ice for such a one-time application rather than investing in a tank & reg.



> 8. A freind of mine had a big spot of mildew on his stalk, yet didnt listen when i told him not to harvest it,


If I saw a plant going to mould, I'd have chopped it instantly- then would have went looking for why I was getting mould on plants. 



> What is the possible damage that can cause?


Mould can kill plants; grey mould (botyritis) will literally liquefy buds and leave you with a chunk of grey, powdery yuk. 



> Is there any way to really tell if bud is internally "coated" in powdery mildew?


Depends on what you mean by 'internally.' Mould won't occur inside of the vascular tissues of a plant. Most moulds need exposure to air. It's common to find mould between the bracts in a bud, but not inside the plant tissues per se.



> 9. I am seeing, And have been seeing for a while, TINY little bugs, randomly in my flowering plants, That look like microscopic frogs, they dont seem to be doing any harm, They usually chill near the top of the plant, definitely not spider mites. any idea of what they are?


Could be thrips. Thrips suck sap from leaves by piercing the leaf from the underside They cause telltale silvery spots n the upper leaf surface. They're very small and are hard to see without magnification. Get a jeweller's loupe.



> 10. (im sorry to get all the way to 10 but this is like having an interview with jorge cervantes ) a freind of mine with a similar setup to you vegged half of his plants for a little over a month in rockwool slabs, The roots of the plants all grew togethor and he had to cut them apart,


yikes. 



> Now he is trying to transplant them to his ebb n grow but the slabs are huuuge and i told him that obviously the rockwool shouldnt be soaked 5x a day as this would just cause problems, The proper thing for him to do is just kind of set them on top of his hydraton and let the roots figure out where to go (down ) right??


yep. The plants will very likely already be suffering a bit of shock if any significant portion of the rootmass was damaged when he cut the slab apart, but saturating the remaining RW 5x/day will make the destruction complete. The roots, which are already having to recover, will regenerate slowly if at all in overwet conditions. 



> Your helpfulness to the community restores my faith in humanity, Which usually comes and goes as it likes  Its great to know that someone out there is willing to help when he can, especially to such an extreme extent. best of luck to you.


Thanks, I do what I can.


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## fred1 (Sep 24, 2008)

Hi Al, 

I bought a 200 cfm "room to room fan" from Home Depot for a closet grow I am going to do. I plan on installing the fan in the crawl space hatch that leads to my attic. Someone said I shouldn't vent directly into the attic, which is vented in at least 4 spots along the periphery, because of possible mold and dry rot problems from the moisture in the air. 

I plan on using a DWC bubbler with between 2-6 plants and I was wondering if you think venting directly into the attic would be a problem or should I try to run ducting to one of the peripheral vents? Less work is better for me. 

Also wondering if you think I should install an intake fan with ducting from the attic vents into the closet for additional airflow, or do you think the negative pressure from the exhaust fan would be enough to draw air in from the closet door cracks? My closet is 96 cubic feet and will be running a 400watt hps. 

Sorry if that was a bit rambling.


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## fshields1 (Sep 24, 2008)

hey Al,
i was just woundering if you had any good cloneing trick for strains that are hard to clone? i have 3 strains growing right now, all unknown bagseeds, 2 are very easy to clone while the other seems almost impossible to clone, and that is the best producing and tasting plant iv got. any help would be appreciated, thanks


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## NLXSK1 (Sep 24, 2008)

fred1 said:


> Hi Al,
> 
> I bought a 200 cfm "room to room fan" from Home Depot for a closet grow I am going to do. I plan on installing the fan in the crawl space hatch that leads to my attic. Someone said I shouldn't vent directly into the attic, which is vented in at least 4 spots along the periphery, because of possible mold and dry rot problems from the moisture in the air.
> 
> ...


The chance of mold/dryrot is more related to the size of the attic space, the relative humidity of the attic and exterior. efficiency of ventilation in the attic, prevailing winds, etc. These issues have more to do with the attic than the space that is being ventilated.

It would be better to run ducting to one of the exhaust vents as was suggested but whether not doing it would cause other problems would just be a wild guess without alot more information.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 24, 2008)

DR. VonDankenstine said:


> What's shaken bacon---anything new up in your neck of the woods? Hope your well.


 Putting in the veg patch, spending too much time online to get it done in any reasonable length of time.  Hope autumn is welcome up yonder. 



Old in the Way said:


> H HAHA I love politicing with rednecks. Its so easy to get them riled up. Dangerous but easy.


 Tell them you've changed your middle name by deed poll to "Hussein." 

I did. 



> ....and WTF. I thought i would catch up on FAQt but 13 pages of posts since I left town on friday.....how do you do it??


 By not getting things done elsewhere!



> I am happy to report that after one month the veg room maintained itself for over 100 hrs during my absence-that will make the next long weekend far more relaxing.
> 
> Everything looks great and there are no issues to report.


 dynamite. 


> Does this have anything to due my increase in the nutes?


 It might. Wait a couple days and see if it doesn't resolve. I see this on occasion with clones which are getting their first taste of 1400 and HPS light. 



> Can or does this occur from light saturation?


 Probably not, the only damage you'll see from inadequate lamp-leaf spacing is really from excessive heat. Symptoms are necrotic tissues in areas of closest proximity to lights.



sparkafire said:


> Al you there?? need advice asap 11:43 am


 In what time zone? I'm UTC minus 10h.




> The words unplug and hydro don't work to well together.


 um, no. 


> The roots that were in the bottom of the tub were dry to the touch so i am assuming there is root damage.


 ouch.

When your plants have run dry, the first thing to do is wet the rootmass ASAP. Then, reduce the transpiration load by turning off lights and circ fans. You can give everyone 24h in darkness with no ill effect, at least none worse than than will happen if the plants can't recover from the wilt. Leaves which have fully collapsed may not recover. Snip those off. 

Let me know how they go after a drink and a long nap. 



snipsnip said:


> al,
> a sulfer burner?
> i saw u had one but i dont know what they do?


 Sulfur evaporators melt powdered sulfur, which gives off a sulfur vapour. In very small doses, this will raise the pH on the surfaces of the leaves and halt powdery mildew. 



> i was trying not to spend much more money


 It's money well spent, but they are not exactly cheap. Mine was about $80. However, the sulfur powder itself is very cheap and very little is required, 500g will last a year or more. 



> i alreaddy have 2 400's so i was just gonna add 2 more, 2x2 trays be better u think for that wattage.


 A 400 in a horizontal fixture will cover a rectangular space about 2.5x3.5' A 2x2' tray would be a pretty good match for a 400. 



> how much thc is created in the last few weaks


 MOST of it! The vast majority of bud weight & thus resin development happens in wk 7 & 8. Harvesting early is false economy. I'd hazard a comfortable guess that harvesting in wk6 would reduce your yield by 60-70%.



Old in the Way said:


> Also Al, I believe i saw a post where you stated you manage to run a 1kw light within 250-300mm thanks to a well conditioned space and a closed vent circuit for the light? I seem to recall this was after the flowering plants maxed out in height prior to stopping vert growth and fully devoting its energy to flower.


 Cooltubes make that 300mm min spacing possible. I use four 900 x 900mm trays with a 1000 covering them in pairs. Plants in trays 3 & 4 (wks 5-6 & 7-8 ) are of their finished height, so the spacing for those plants is all the same. Plants just introduced to the system in tray #1 are quite short (200-250mm) by comparison to the ~600-700mm plants in tray 2 (wks 3-4). The lamp can be dropped no lower than 300mm from the ~600mm tall plants in tray 2, meaning there is about 700mm between the lamp and the shorties in tray 1. They catch up to the tray 2 plants' height very quickly. So, while I probably could run the lamp at 300mm off the very young tray 1 plants, it's impractical to do so because of the lamp-leaf spacing required for tray 2. The get a slow introduction to high intensity light, not by me adjusting the lamp height but by them growing toward it. 



fred1 said:


> Hi Al,
> 
> I bought a 200 cfm "room to room fan" from Home Depot for a closet grow I am going to do. I plan on installing the fan in the crawl space hatch that leads to my attic. Someone said I shouldn't vent directly into the attic, which is vented in at least 4 spots along the periphery, because of possible mold and dry rot problems from the moisture in the air.


 Certain conditions (ie cold winter weather) could cause condensation of humid grow room exhaust on surfaces in the attic. However, if the attic is well ventilated, since it's not just moist but also warm air coming out of that exhaust, the exhaust air should exit before it drops to dewpoint. I'd go ahead and try it, but check the attic frequently for signs of condensation. It could be a problem. However, it's a great place to dump waste air from a security standpoint as the attic will muffle the exhaust fan sound and disperse scents (to some degree). 



> Also wondering if you think I should install an intake fan with ducting from the attic vents into the closet for additional airflow, or do you think the negative pressure from the exhaust fan would be enough to draw air in from the closet door cracks? My closet is 96 cubic feet and will be running a 400watt hps.


 I would not take air from the attic if you are going to dump exhaust there. Source it from another room or through the floor if you can. You will need a low restriction intake or your exhaust fan will be throttled and won't develop the CFM flow rate you expect. 




fshields1 said:


> hey Al,
> i was just woundering if you had any good cloneing trick for strains that are hard to clone?


To be deadly honest, I've never found much strain related difference in how easy it is to get a plant to root, aside from a day or two quicker or slower here or there. When my clonebox has the right conditions and presents them consistently, I get similar speed from anything I've cloned. I wish I could be more helpful.


----------



## sparkafire (Sep 24, 2008)

Hey Al Thanks for getting back to me. I did turn on the lights for about 10min and ran the juice to them during that time. Went back and peeked and they were standing tall!!! Whats the verdict on having to turn the lights on for 10 min?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 24, 2008)

They would not really have needed the 10 min lights-on, but it won't hurt anything. As long as they perked back up again, all's good.


----------



## archie6214 (Sep 24, 2008)

Hey Al I talked to you a couple days ago about some of my clones drooping and wilting. I think I may have found the problem. I think I read your heat mat is fixed at 30 degrees C. I just put the sensor of my thermometer in between the heat mat and tray and it's showing 43 degrees C. Do you think this is the problem? My hydro store sells a thermostat for the mat for $35. Do you think I need to get it? Would putting a couple wooden pencils under the tray to act like spacers help until I get to the hydro store? Thanks again


----------



## sparkafire (Sep 24, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> They would not really have needed the 10 min lights-on, but it won't hurt anything. As long as they perked back up again, all's good.


It was one of those things that you don't spend a whole lot of time researching or hearing about in the threads but peerrty damn important to know when you need it. I just couldn't wait the 7 hours and i thought they needed light to absorb the water. Thanks again.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 24, 2008)

When the plant is fully hydrated and lights are turned off, water uptake will all but stop. 

When the plant is badly *de*hydrated, it'll suck up water even if lights are off, at least until it has 're-inflated' the vascular structure of the plant.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 24, 2008)

archie6214 said:


> it's showing 43 degrees C. Do you think this is the problem?


I sure do.  Damn, that thing would make a righteous coffee warmer. 



> My hydro store sells a thermostat for the mat for $35. Do you think I need to get it?


Yes. 


> Would putting a couple wooden pencils under the tray to act like spacers help until I get to the hydro store?


If you have a thin plastic tray to put your cubes in, you could put a sheet of corrugated cardboard from any old box between the plastic tray and the heatmat as a temporary measure. A sheet of Corflute/Coroplast (the stuff real estate signs are made from) will do the same but be waterproof. Might try 2 layers of the stuff for that hotplate you have until you can get a thermostat for it.


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## benson (Sep 24, 2008)

hi al.
if i turn my marowana plants roun every hour will they get dizzy and fall over.
if i make a loud noise when my plants r sleepin will it wake them up. 
i forgot 2 wash under there leaves this morning is dat why they smell so bad. 
how can i get bigger bubbles 2 cum up tru my soil.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 24, 2008)

Must be late night in nth America- I've been able to go work in the garden patch for A WHOLE HOUR with no queries coming in.


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## archie6214 (Sep 24, 2008)

Yeah the description on the box said it raises the temp 10-15 degrees F above room temp!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 24, 2008)

oh... I guess I spoke too soon. 



benson said:


> hi al.
> if i turn my marowana plants roun every hour will they get dizzy and fall over.
> if i make a loud noise when my plants r sleepin will it wake them up.
> i forgot 2 wash under there leaves this morning is dat why they smell so bad.
> how can i get bigger bubbles 2 cum up tru my soil.


Guess they wake the trolls at 11pm in the central time zone...


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 24, 2008)

archie6214 said:


> Yeah the description on the box said it raises the temp 10-15 degrees F above room temp!!


fark. I suppose that without a thermostat, that's exactly what it's doing!


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## corral hollow kid (Sep 24, 2008)

CustomHydro said:


> Two things america needs to change is our
> measurement system, and our legal system.


Amen to that brother!!!


----------



## sparkafire (Sep 24, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> oh... I guess I spoke too soon.
> 
> 
> 
> Guess they wake the trolls at 11pm in the central time zone...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 24, 2008)

And don't spank the monkey, either.


----------



## sparkafire (Sep 24, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> And don't spank the monkey, either.


But what if he has been bad??


----------



## SmellsLikeLemonz (Sep 24, 2008)

Thanks for your reply

The plants mentioned have had a good 2 weeks (sitting being manually watered seperately in trays) to recover from the brutal root attack of 08, And beleive me i felt like a murderer with the knife, The roots are more than 1" thick off the bottom slab, (from the bottom the slab is all white)

So i guess my question is, should i ever top water the rockwool (4" tall 6-8" square) after putting the roots on top of the buckets? 

Also, just to let you know, becuase im not sure anyone knows it is possible (havent searched for it) but i have successfull cloned a DEAD plant.. Literally.. All leaves down on a large plant that had been without nutes for days, and i cut a clone and 3 days later it popped right back up and that is the story of the Great GDP recessitation. 

Really i had heard that both sulfur and ozone generators were pest detterents ;-(, i do have a very large co2 tank already, but no regulator, could i just have it filled and let it all out in the room like a fogger? (that would be great, worlds largest reusable fogger) or would that kill my plants? Just vent after a little while or what do you reccomend?

BTW my small soil op that i mentioned is about the biggest varieties of strains ive seen grown, (admittadley that is not a good thing really), Its not hydro though so its not perfectly consistent, but i have grown a few (GDP, black domina) strains that just dont yeild very much at all, but are very high quality, and a few that are the opposite (mars og) and my favorite out of the 18~ i have had experience with is c4. I see what your saying you like your cannibis to smell like cannibis, but if you smelled it you would have a whole new opinion on what cannibis could smell like , from my understanding, c4 is also known as "Pineapple Express", I will post pics of c4 SoG results when i have them just for you 

Which brings me to a short story, I once used lemons instead of ph down, and accidentally dropped a lemon seed in the nutes and 3 days later i had a little lemon tree sticking out of my rockwool . planted in my yard!... i like that story

Also I read in one of your threads you dont like light movers, a freind has 2 with 2 1000's (not cool tubes but they each have a fan that keeps each cool and vents outside) , He wants to test out the SOG style waters but only has one res so no every 2 weeks, Should he just smush all his pots as close as possible togethor and stop the light movers? keep the light movers going a shorter distance?

any suggestions let me know .


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## firsttimegroww (Sep 24, 2008)

Hey albf i was wondering would not enough fresh air cause stretch? I have a sealed room with not much fresh air comming in, If i add Co2 could this solve my problem? Thanks!


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## SmellsLikeLemonz (Sep 25, 2008)

Just found this,
"* Sulphur burner. These devices vaporize (not burn) elemental sulphur, coat the room with a fine film of sulphur, inhibiting PM spores from germinating. Also inhibits insects to some degree. 

Run for 12 hours initially (at night, exhaust blower off, circ fans on), then 1-4 hrs/night thereafter. Some discontinue when buds begin to form, other let it run up to the last week. Very effective prevention  "

that seems a bit ridiculous, What exactly would happen if there was too much? happen to know if a plant can actually OD on sulfur? 12 hours seems crazy, i wouldnt even want to think about 12 hours worth of sulfur sitting on buds... sulfur smoking ... ew. But yet it seems some people do, I guess maybe with this much sulfur anything in the room will die like co2??? cant be safe... i dont like it. 

eww especially now i find things warning people not to use sulfur sprays on buds or it will leave a sulfur taste.


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## an11dy9 (Sep 25, 2008)

> If you are using HPS lighting _with_ cooltubes, a ventilation system (be that a single exhaust blower with passive intake or separate exhaust & intake fans) can move as little as 1/3 of the room volume per minute. Passive intakes should be about twice the area of the exhaust blower i.e. 2x 250mm dia inlets for a 250mm dia exhaust blower to prevent restricting the CFM rate of the exhaust blower. It is often easier to trap light on the inlet if you are using an intake blower as not so large of a hole needs to be light-trapped.
> 
> If you are _not_ using cooltubes with your HPS lighting, 1CFM per cu ft of room volume is about right.


I am using cool tubes... (2) 1000w HPSs... which brings me to my next question.. I know you said u can use up to 3 cooltubes in a daisey? ill be using 2 of them inline. what size fan should i use to blow through them? so because im using cool tubes and my room is aproximately 500 cubic feet, an appropriate exhaust fan would be 166cfm or more. And an appropriate intake fan will be about 10-20 percent less than that? and just wondering.. why do you suggest such less air movement with a room with cooltubes than without? Is there another reason than obvious heat issues?

The (2) 1000w HPSs will be over (2) Aeroflo 36 site systems.... If you are familiar with the systems what do u think about them? I hope that the (2) 1K watters are enough for the system. Its over the 50 watts/square foot you suggested if you use the actual growing area as the surface, but not the whole grow room's surface area because of room for fans dehumidifier and resivoirs. <-- if you follow that?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 25, 2008)

sparkafire said:


> But what if he has been bad??


 Then spank him til he pukes! 



firsttimegroww said:


> Hey albf i was wondering would not enough fresh air cause stretch? I have a sealed room with not much fresh air comming in, If i add Co2 could this solve my problem? Thanks!


 To be honest, I don't know what the effect of insufficient CO2 would be. Every grow that I have seen that was so poorly ventilated as to suffer from lack of CO2 was first killed by excess heat. Adding CO2 via a proper controlled system can't be bad, but it is outrageously expensive. Makeshift CO2 generators (i.e. yeast & sugar, vinegar & baking soda) are wildly unpredictable. You just don't know how much CO2 they are making. Ventilation is job #1 in any grow op. If you can't easily and effectively ventilate a space, pick a different space. A freestanding wardrobe is easier to vent than a walk-in closet, for example. 



SmellsLikeLemonz said:


> Just found this,
> "* Sulphur burner. These devices vaporize (not burn) elemental sulphur, coat the room with a fine film of sulphur, inhibiting PM spores from germinating. Also inhibits insects to some degree.


 That's the first mention I have _*ever*_ heard of S inhibiting insect activity. I'd look for some corroboration in proper botanical science instead of sales literature. I'd like to know what insects are affected and by what biological mechanism. 



> Run for 12 hours initially (at night, exhaust blower off, circ fans on), then 1-4 hrs/night thereafter. Some discontinue when buds begin to form, other let it run up to the last week. Very effective prevention "


 You'd have a bunch of cooked leaves after one 12h stretch of the thing running in a grow room. Starts on the leaf tips, can mimic a mild nute burn. I saw leaf tip burn with 10 mins runtime 2x/day, cut it to 8mins 2x/day and the problem has not come back. It takes _*minutes*_ worth of runtime, not hours, for a sulfur evaporator to control PM. 



an11dy9 said:


> I am using cool tubes... (2) 1000w HPSs... which brings me to my next question.. I know you said u can use up to 3 cooltubes in a daisy _[chain]_?


Yes, it's possible to run 3 in a row, but it's not my favourite arrangement. When the air in the cooltube is significantly hotter than the ambient air in the grow room, the duct and the glass will lose their heat into the room air, defeating the purpose somewhat. 



> ill be using 2 of them inline. what size fan should i use to blow through them?


A typical 200CFM 150mm axial blower will do fine. 



> so because im using cool tubes and my room is aproximately 500 cubic feet, an appropriate exhaust fan would be 166cfm or more.


 

Cooltubes require a separate blower to the room exhaust. The room air exhaust requires a thermostat so that blower can shut off when the room air temp drops to the setpoint. Cooltubes must have a constant air supply while lights are on. If you tried to use a thermostat on the fan driving the cooltubes, they would overheat when the thermostat shut the blower off. 



> why do you suggest such less air movement with a room with cooltubes than without?


Without cooltubes, the room air exhaust blower is not just removing CO2 depleted air, it is also removing heat from the lights. Cooltubes are so effective at removing lamp heat that the room exhaust blower can be much smaller as all it is doing is exchanging air to replace CO2 depleted air.



> The (2) 1000w HPSs will be over (2) Aeroflo 36 site systems.... If you are familiar with the systems what do u think about them?


Not familiar with them. A watering system is a watering system for the most part. If it wets the roots, it's doing its job. 


> I hope that the (2) 1K watters are enough for the system. Its over the 50 watts/square foot you suggested


Ought to be plenty!


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## flipsidesw (Sep 25, 2008)

Hey AL , Whats goin on man? Hey where do get that h202 at 50%?


----------



## Old in the Way (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks Al........


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## DeweyKox (Sep 25, 2008)

Hey Al, Got a question, just received my beans yesterday, and want to crack them. I have 1.5" RW cubes, tray and dome, but I cut out 2 holes in the dome, because the last few times I did clones, I felt it was too humid with the high temps in my garage. 

Anyways, my question is this, would you change your method for your clone solution vs. seed?

* 9-10L tapwater 
* 9-10ml H2O2 (50% horticutural grade)
* pH adjust as needed to 5.8 (correct pH last)

What I was thinking was, placing seeds in wet napkin with ph water of 6.0 with small amount of superthrive place in a ziplock bag in a dark area for 3-5 days till tap root comes out, then place in RW cubes. I just want advice if cracking them this way and the solution for the cubes to have the best success and cracking and fast rooting. Thanks...


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 25, 2008)

SmellsLikeLemonz said:


> The roots are more than 1" thick off the bottom slab, (from the bottom the slab is all white)


 That sounds good 


> So i guess my question is, should i ever top water the rockwool (4" tall 6-8" square) after putting the roots on top of the buckets?


 Usually when folks have started a plant in RW, later intending to run the plant in pellets, it's in small (40mm) RW cubes, with a much smaller rootmass than you have. 

If you top water your big block much, roots won't find their way down into the damp pellets. They'll stay happily contained in your (relatively huge) RW block. However, a vigorous plant which has a significant rootmass may wilt without some wetting of the block until the roots seek down into the pellets. 

Nest your block in pellets so that the roots which have popped out of the sides of the RW block are covered, but make sure the RW block is 1/2" above the flood level. Mind the plant closely for signs of wilt, wet the RW if you have to, but try to wait as long as possible before doing so, so that the roots will look for water in the pellets.



> i have successfull cloned a DEAD plant..


 If you could clone it, it wasn't dead yet. Might have been in bad, bad shape, but if the tissues had fully collapsed, you would have not gotten far. 



> Really i had heard that both sulfur and ozone generators were pest detterents


 New ones on me. 



> i do have a very large co2 tank already, but no regulator


 A 3000psi CO2 tank without a reg is a very good dry ice generator! Seriously, cracking open a cyl without a reg on it is really downright dangerous. Crack a valve on a CO2 tank without a reg on it and bits of dry ice may go flying out of the valve as it collects on the outlet surfaces. Use a face shield and heavy leather welding gloves. You don't want any freeze burns, on you or the plants). Buy or borrow a reg if you can, it'd be much safer. 

The greatest hazard to the plants from all O2 being displaced from the room air is if the rootmasses are deprived of O2 for a significant period of time (more than a couple-3 hours). However, the foliar mass won't care. 

Saturating the room airmass with CO2 for 2-3h WILL kill any oxygen breathing critters in there. It can kill _*you*_ too if the gas can escape into the living spaces of the house. Don't crack the valve and go have a nap! Make sure the windows are open in the rest of the house. 


> Which brings me to a short story, I once used lemons instead of ph down, and accidentally dropped a lemon seed in the nutes and 3 days later i had a little lemon tree sticking out of my rockwool . planted in my yard!... i like that story


 Well, I like it too, great pub tale... but it seems highly improbable. I guess that's what makes it such a good story.  3 days isn't really enough to get much of a root out of a lemon seed, much less have a small tree growing already... 


> Should he just smush all his pots as close as possible togethor and stop the light movers?


 yes! 

Light movers are not generally a good thing. A stationary light of a size suiting the area you need to cover is far preferable. Otherwise, you have to de-rate the amount of light that the plants are getting while the mover has the lamp at the other end of the grow.



flipsidesw said:


> where do get that h202 at 50%?


Hydro shops, chemical supply houses. 



DeweyKox said:


> Hey Al, Got a question, just received my beans yesterday, and want to crack them.


Make sure to build your grow room and have all equipment operating and tested BEFORE cracking beans. You don't want to be racing the clock, building a grow room.



> I have 1.5" RW cubes, tray and dome, but I cut out 2 holes in the dome, because the last few times I did clones, I felt it was too humid with the high temps in my garage.


ok



> Anyways, my question is this, would you change your method for your clone solution vs. seed?
> 
> * 9-10L tapwater
> * 9-10ml H2O2 (50% horticutural grade)
> * pH adjust as needed to 5.8 (correct pH last)


The clone watering soln as listed will do fine for seedlings.



> What I was thinking was, placing seeds in wet napkin with ph water of 6.0


5.8, please. 



> with small amount of superthrive place in a ziplock bag in a dark area for 3-5 days till tap root comes out, then place in RW cubes. I just want advice if cracking them this way and the solution for the cubes to have the best success and cracking and fast rooting.


Should work fine.


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## brontobrandon1 (Sep 25, 2008)

Al b i got a question, i think i remeber u saying u dont flush your plants a while back but i could be mistaken

but if u dont flush does your bud crackle? and in all honesty do u think it taste diff????

the reason i ask is i dont have enough money for a another table and am doing a contious babies at diff ages on 2 trays and there both filled. 

later


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 25, 2008)

brontobrandon1 said:


> Al b i got a question, i think i remeber u saying u dont flush your plants a while back but i could be mistaken


No, you're quite right, I don't. It's not necessary.



> but if u dont flush does your bud crackle?


Nope. I've seen badly nute burned plant matter crackle when burned, though. If you're not overfertilising, it won't do that. 



> and in all honesty do u think it taste diff????


No difference between flushed & non, provided the plant is not fert burned.



> the reason i ask is i dont have enough money for a another table and am doing a contious babies at diff ages on 2 trays and there both filled.


What's 'contious' mean?


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## worble (Sep 25, 2008)

hey big Al,
did a search on Sulphur burners and cant find alot someone said you use a burner so maybe i could get some pointers and info from you  please.
first off how long do you burn the burner on lets say a 10'x10' area?
also how deadly is this stuff? i dont want to kill anyone or myself.
if you need pics of the burner i will snap some that will be easy its not a big burner about the size of a coffee can hangs from a wire. any help would be great thanks again. jeff


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## Jtoth3ustin (Sep 25, 2008)

eyy wus goin on Al. i respect that u put it out there sayin that your not even trying to do some big ass op. in a wharehouse. small space. means less room for error lol.. i got 3 grow rooms. i built in my apts. bedroom. a 7'x7' room (clone/2-4week clone room, 4-6 week veg room, and my flowering room)... i was thinking about switcing to mylar but not sure. so i figured i ask u.... for small spaces. mylar er white and black poly?
[email protected]


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## GypsyBush (Sep 25, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Smart move, you certainly won't regret it.


Well, thanks!

I am sure I won't...

Just placed an order with HTG for a 600 HPS w/ 8" cool tube...

It will be coupled to a 265 cfm blower... not an in line booster...

I want to thank you for your patience and advice... this thread is GREAT!!!







Gypsy...


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## SmellsLikeLemonz (Sep 25, 2008)

EDIT: i was a bit out of it when i wrote this originally, and it made little sense, it has now been Revised with added sobriety 


okay maybe i could have been more clear about the tank, It was used for paintballing originally, 5000 psi tank with a nozzle + gauge showing psi. Are you saying it would be unsafe to just crack the nozzle a bit? i wish i had a freind with a spare co2 regulator and meter but i do not ;-(. 


On the lemon tree, It had 2 green chutes coming out of the seed, roots going through a few grow cubes, i had been watering said plant twice a day with Bcuzz Root as well so that may have helped. but i was surprised as you are, i had to assume most of the story as it was the only logical conclusion to there being a mini lemon seed in my rockwool .

thanks for the info on the Slabs, My freind had already put the slabs (he said he had to squish a few even ;-( ) into the ebb system, and we just got through re-potting them 1/2" above the flood level, The cubes were soaked, so they now owe you twice over, heres to hoping the pay it forward theory works out eh?

you think maybe i should make the light mover only move 6"-1ft to avoid burn and keep it closer to the plants? id think that because if would leave all the plants under the light even at its furthest point that this would be much more logical? I guess im trying to still use it and the light in motion at all would mean i could keep it closer to the plants right?

Also what do you reccomend using to flush the system in between nutes? h202? 

So mites fruit flies etc etc would all die from a full tank of that co2 being released and sitting for a couple hours? Why do more people not do that? Foggers get (&#$ing expensive after a while and filling with co2 is fairly cheap. and would work on everything that aspirates oxygen. 

It must be nice to know that your able to/do help so many people, Its great to be in the position to type a few words, spit some knowlege, and have it be worth so much more to the person you are helping than the effort was of you simply telling them what you know. Im sure you will never understand the amount of forests you have helped create.


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## flipsidesw (Sep 25, 2008)

Hey AL! Hope all is well.

Ok so im gonna try a flood system. Im looking at a botanicare 3x3 tray(which is way more expensive than i would thought) . Also thinking 40 gal res should be sufficient.Yes? 256gph pump. All sound ok? 

Im having trouble figureing out the pot size and type. I wanna cram in 4 per sqft. Is there a way to set up the pots to where the roots stay enclosed. Im sure this is a redundant question for ya but If dont mind addressing it again for me i would be very gratefull. Im wanting to start gathering stuff but i dont have every angle covered...

Couldnt find that 50% h2o2 so i got some 35%. ill just have to use a lil more right?

Thanks again Al I'd be fuct if ur weren't around.


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## firsttimegroww (Sep 25, 2008)

hey al, just wondering incase the increased ppm doesnt work maybe its the strain
Im probly going to change strains, 
what some you recomend?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 25, 2008)

worble said:


> hey big Al,
> did a search on Sulphur burners and cant find alot someone said you use a burner so maybe i could get some pointers and info from you  please.


sure, no prob



> first off how long do you burn the burner on lets say a 10'x10' area?


Run it on a timer during lights-off, start with about 8min 2x/day, I run mine an hour after lights-off and an hour before lights-on. 



> also how deadly is this stuff? i dont want to kill anyone or myself.


Sulfur is not toxic to humans. It's really quite safe to use. 



> if you need pics of the burner i will snap some that will be easy its not a big burner about the size of a coffee can hangs from a wire.


Something like this?








Jtoth3ustin said:


> i got 3 grow rooms.


 Busy little beaver, ain't ya? 



> i was thinking about switcing to mylar but not sure. so i figured i ask u.... for small spaces. mylar er white and black poly?


 I'm not a fan of mylar. It's a bit too reflective and doesn't diffuse light well. It can hotspot if not fixed down to the wall totally flat. Pandafilm is tough, cleanable and diffuses light very well. 250 micron thick panda film is all but lightproof, you can't see any glow even from a 1000HPS through the stuff. 



flipsidesw said:


> Ok so im gonna try a flood system. Im looking at a botanicare 3x3 tray(which is way more expensive than i would thought) . Also thinking 40 gal res should be sufficient.Yes? 256gph pump. All sound ok?


Shop around for prices on the tray. I pay $53 for 900 x 900mm trays, another $8-10 for fill/drain & overflow fittings, 400L/H water pumps are about $11, air pumps are $8. 5L per plant is a good res capacity. 256gph is about 1000L/h, more than enough. I use 2000L/H pumps because I drain my tanks using the system pump, makes quicker work of it than the little 400L/h pumps I had previously used. 



> Im having trouble figureing out the pot size and type. I wanna cram in 4 per sqft.


Use 140mm x 140mm (about 5.5") standard soil pots (with drain holes) if you want 4/sq ft. 



> Is there a way to set up the pots to where the roots stay enclosed.


The roots will tend to poke out of the drain holes, but exposure to air will 'prune' them for you. 



> Couldnt find that 50% h2o2 so i got some 35%. ill just have to use a lil more right?


Use 35% grade at 1.7ml/L.



> Thanks again Al I'd be fuct if ur weren't around.


I'm Fuct so you don't have to be. 



firsttimegroww said:


> hey al, just wondering incase the increased ppm doesnt work maybe its the strain
> Im probly going to change strains,
> what some you recomend?


I'm not sure it's the strain, but indica dominant hybrids are the best choice for SoG. NL, Skunk #1, LUI, Big Bud, Power Plant are high producers in SoG, as will be any other primarily indica hybrid.


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## daddychrisg (Sep 25, 2008)

Hey Al, I just poured a jar of molasses into my res like you suggested, what kind of results should I be looking for? I can't wait to see them sparkle!!!!Oh goodie, goodie!


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## fitzyno1 (Sep 25, 2008)

I was thinking to myself that this thread should become a sticky, but why should it. It never leaves page 1.

It'll not be long now, until you've caught up with the number of posts on the 'harvest every two weeks' thread. It lasted 15 months, and you're not even past the second month on this thread. 

When does RIU start issuing the medals? LOL


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 25, 2008)

daddychrisg said:


> Hey Al, I just poured a jar of molasses into my res like you suggested, what kind of results should I be looking for? I can't wait to see them sparkle!!!!Oh goodie, goodie!


Nothing doing until you get 3.4 million x 8 lumen LEDs over them, then they'll turn like totally _*dank*_, man. 



fitzyno1 said:


> I was thinking to myself that this thread should become a sticky, but why should it. It never leaves page 1.


heh, yep, it kinda stickies itself. 



> It'll not be long now, until you've caught up with the number of posts on the 'harvest every two weeks' thread. It lasted 15 months, and you're not even past the second month on this thread.


The readership numbers on this thread are mad. I had it closed for a week or so and the avg readership per day now exceeds what it was when I had to take a break. Something like 420/day, nutty for a little cannabis forum. 



> When does RIU start issuing the medals? LOL


Well, they were gonna hand me a few until I insisted that they were cast in pure lead.


----------



## hom36rown (Sep 25, 2008)

I gotta question for you al, I started getting powdery mildew at about a month into flowering, but I kept it to a minimum by just spraying with alkaline water every other day...IM harvesting right now and I still have leves with powdery mildew on them, but im going to trim them all off, and I cant see anything on the buds...so my question is, do you think my buds will give me a lung infection or anything like that if I smoke them


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## DeweyKox (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm limited to $155 till mid of next month. Trying to figure out what would be the best decision to buy next. I have only a PH Pen at the moment.

Currently have:

*Flower Room*:
400W hps All in one unit(why?)
2" inline booster fan
4" Inline connected to Y adapter,one to light, one to top of grow sucking heat out.
5" fan (wind)

*Veg Room*:
8 floro 2 feet fixture will all Veg bulbs
4" fan (wind)

*Nutrients:
*Fox Farm Big Bloom
Fox Farm Grow Big
Fox Farm Tiger Bloom
Mad Farmer MOAB
Botanicare Sweet
House & Gardern Multi Zyme
General Hydroponics Flora Kleen

Want List:
Hanna pH/EC Combo WaterProof Tester
Ebb & Flow Setup to replace in flower room 2X4
600W HPS Setup
4" inline w/carbon filter setup
Thermastat

Now the veg room is not really a room, I have not sheet rocked it and painted white yet. Soon though. Here is some old pics of my flower and veg room.

Question: On the 8 bulb floros that have all veg bulbs in it, I do have 8 Flower bulbs, and lots of people like a mix of the 2, should I mix them and how many of each would benefit if any?


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## flipsidesw (Sep 25, 2008)

Ok so how high would i need to flood the tray since the holes in the pots are only on the bottom. Also i was thinking since the holes are only in bottom some of the roots would be diverted, provide i used a loose enough medium. Is there a unique reason to use rockwool cubes instead of jiffy pellets? I personally would perfer to continue using them as i have done a couple dwc grow with no trouble from them. I have think they are stupid easy and havent failed me yet so.

So i shouldnt really worry about the roots stickin out the bottom uh? Will the roots getting trimmed as you affect the plant at all? Or am i just a newbie and theres no concern here?

I need to put down the blunt and put my thinkin cap on.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 25, 2008)

hom36rown said:


> do you think my buds will give me a lung infection or anything like that if I smoke them


 'Lung infections from mouldy pot' is a wives' tale. While mouldy buds are unpleasant to smoke from beginning to end, not many mould spores are going to survive being hit with a Bic. I also don't think powdery mildew spores would survive long in a lung, even if _*somehow *_you managed to smoke the stuff without setting it alight.



DeweyKox said:


> I'm limited to $155 till mid of next month. Trying to figure out what would be the best decision to buy next. I have only a PH Pen at the moment.
> 
> Currently have:
> 
> ...


Yeah, why? If you could put the ballast outside the room, that would be heat you didn't have to depend on the exhaust blower to remove.



> 2" inline booster fan


2"? is that right? What's a 2" fan supposed to boost?


> 4" Inline connected to Y adapter,one to light, one to top of grow sucking heat out.
> 5" fan (wind)


Tell me about this light, does it have an inlet duct flange and a glass sheet over the lamp tube? Hope so. It'd be a lot better for temp control if it acted like a cooltube.

 
Ventilation should be organised like this: 
 
Circ fans should be ordinary 40cm (15-16") oscillating units. 



> *Veg Room*:
> 8 floro 2 feet fixture will all Veg bulbs
> 4" fan (wind)


Use a 40cm circ fan here too, if you can. 



> *Nutrients:
> *Fox Farm Big Bloom
> Fox Farm Grow Big
> Fox Farm Tiger Bloom
> ...


Can you return *all* this stuff? It's a bunch of organics and will be a major pain in the ass because you can't use H2O2 with them. Check what poor platypusman has recently been through with them. With organics, you are relying on competing microbial activity to control pathogens- and it doesn't always work... and it's kinda hard to tell when it is. 

'Sweet' is a sugar sauce and should not be used in _*any*_ hydro op. 

I see 3 bloom additives in your list. 'More' is not 'better' in growing plants. If you use any bloom additive at all, use ONE- and it should contain P & K and nothing else. 

'Organic' doesn't mean 'better' or even 'good.' Organic molecules are all constructed from inorganic molecules. Organic fertilisers have to break down into inorganic elements before the plant can use them. 

Organic growing is a good technique for soil but not hydroponics. With inorganic nutes & H2O2, you will have a successful grow the first time and the op will be much easier to maintain as you're only growing ONE organism- cannabis plants. 

Replace this list of stuff with a good quality 2-part standard hydroponic nutrient from a well known maker like AN, GH, Canna, a bloom additive like Canna's PK-13-14 (used for 1 week in wk 6 of flowering ONLY) and H2O2 50% grade, to be used at 1ml/l of nutes every 3-4 days. 



> Want List:
> Hanna pH/EC Combo WaterProof Tester
> Ebb & Flow Setup to replace in flower room 2X4
> 600W HPS Setup
> ...


Combo meters are not the best choice. The pH electrode only will last 2 years and when it needs replacement, if it is not user replaceable, you will replace the entire meter or send the unit in for service. You already have a pH meter, but you need an EC/TDS meter for nutes before you can start growing. Hanna pen meters are not renowned for reliability, but their more expensive ones can last a while. The most reliable TDS meter I've ever seen is the Bluelab Truncheon. Avoid Chinese copies as found on Ebay. 

I think your ventilation system needs a rethink. I can't see less than a 150mm main exhaust blower being needed in any case. If you're going to use a carbon filter, you'll need a centrifugal exhaust blower to push air into it. Axial fans won't work well into an obstructive load like a carbon filter You won't get anywhere near an axial fan's CFM rating if it is pushing air into a filter.


> Question: On the 8 bulb floros that have all veg bulbs in it, I do have 8 Flower bulbs, and lots of people like a mix of the 2, should I mix them and how many of each would benefit if any?


Doesn't matter. Warm white fluoros grow plants just as slowly as cool whites. vegging with fluoros is fine as long as you don't need a bunch of cuttings every 2 weeks.


----------



## flipsidesw (Sep 25, 2008)

Is that a reptile bulb i see above ur 1k?


----------



## hom36rown (Sep 25, 2008)

cool, thanks...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 26, 2008)

flipsidesw said:


> Ok so how high would i need to flood the tray since the holes in the pots are only on the bottom.


 The holes on the bottom allow in water when the tray floods, to the same depth as the tray is flooded. Same thing happened to the Titanic.  The trays should flood to about 100-120mm deep. If using RW cubes in pots of pellets, the cubes should be 1/2" above the flood level. 



> Also i was thinking since the holes are only in bottom some of the roots would be diverted, provide i used a loose enough medium.


 Diverted from what?



> Is there a unique reason to use rockwool cubes instead of jiffy pellets?


 Their cube shape with flat bottom sits well on a heat mat, but most importantly, RW is not made of organic matter which can support mould when damp. Jiffy pots & rapid rooters are made from a compressed peat material. It can break down and fragment when exposed to H2O2. The bits can get loose in a recirculating hydro system and potentially foul pumps.



> So i shouldnt really worry about the roots stickin out the bottom uh? Will the roots getting trimmed as you affect the plant at all? Or am i just a newbie and theres no concern here?


 Option 'B'. 



flipsidesw said:


> Is that a reptile bulb i see above ur 1k?


Nope, just a plain ol' CFL for rare instances when I need to have some work light when the HPS jugs are off. It's always bad to interrupt the flowering plants' night cycle, so that CFL is only used when the timer shuts off the HPS jugs and I am still working, draining/refilling tanks or something.


----------



## flipsidesw (Sep 26, 2008)

Man im getting excited. Im started to second guess the 4 per sqft. I only have 400w lighting. I have a few 400w sets only one of my hoods has the glass for the air cooling. Do you think im gonna run into penetration problems. I mean thats a pretty high plant count for a 400w i would think. I guess what im really concerned about is the overlapping fan leaves blocking the sides and buds under leaves.. I feel like im really pressing the math. According to the information i have a 400 can cover 3x3 area. Im doin 4 per sqft so thats 36 plants. Do you think i can get 3/4 to 1 oz.per plant with what im wanting to do? 

You know its really the shyt that i have someone to bounce this stuff off of instead of my usual trial and error methods.


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## flipsidesw (Sep 26, 2008)

What i meant that roots couldnt all shoot threw the bottom some would find the pot and change direction.That what i meant by that.

So i all im gonna do for the pots is put the started clones in a small pot of clay pebbles. And that should be good until harvest time.

Is a 40 gal res overkill for a 3x3 tray? I heard the bigger the better, but it came out of a hydro sales guys mouth sooo....


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 26, 2008)

flipsidesw said:


> Man im getting excited. Im started to second guess the 4 per sqft. I only have 400w lighting. I have a few 400w sets only one of my hoods has the glass for the air cooling. Do you think im gonna run into penetration problems. I mean thats a pretty high plant count for a 400w i would think.


I agree with you that 4/sf might be a problem with naked lamps. Cooltubes will allow you to drop a 400 to 150mm from the nearest leaves; the closer you can get the light to the plants, the greater the foliar penetration. With cooltubes, I bet you can get away with 4/sf. 



> Do you think i can get 3/4 to 1 oz.per plant with what im wanting to do?


With cooltubes, yes. Without them, you may want to hold it to 24 plants and experiment your way upward.



> You know its really the shyt that i have someone to bounce this stuff off of instead of my usual trial and error methods.


Glad I can be helpful. 



flipsidesw said:


> What i meant that roots couldnt all shoot threw the bottom some would find the pot and change direction.That what i meant by that.


The roots will just busy themselves filling the medium.



> So i all im gonna do for the pots is put the started clones in a small pot of clay pebbles. And that should be good until harvest time.


yep, just make sure to nest the cube in the pellets only after there's a good spray of roots out of the bottom of the cubes and assure that they are 1/2" above the flood line. 


> Is a 40 gal res overkill for a 3x3 tray? I heard the bigger the better, but it came out of a hydro sales guys mouth sooo....


The bigger the better, to a point. Bigger is always better to the hydro shop guy, tho. 

Above about 5L/plant, the plants won't have a chance to make a dent in the amt of nutes in the tank before it's dump time in 14 days. Nute strength will remain very constant, good for plants. However, a lot of unused nutes go down the gurgler, bad for the wallet. 

Below about 5L/plant, water level tends to drop faster than the nutes can be eaten, causing nute concentration to rise. Undersized tanks require frequent topping with plain water to keep nute strength down where it should be. 

If your tank is ideally sized for the plants it is supplying, nute strength will remain fairly constant, even while water level falls. The plants are eating the nutes and using the water in similar proportions. 

I accidentally found this out when replacing my old 100L tanks and could only get 125L tubs at the dollar shop. The extra 25L was enough so that nute strength now remains constant while water level falls. I don't have to top the tanks between dumps at all. Each 125L tank serves 23 plants.


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## flipsidesw (Sep 26, 2008)

Man i wish i knew how to break up a paragraph like that. 

I didnt understand what u ment by make sure they(what are u referring to) are 1/2 above the flood line. Is ther a rule for how high to flood?

The hood i was gonna run with does have the glass and i can just about set it directly on the canonpy. I need to get the glass for the rest of em. Im just trying to use what i got for now. My dream op has cool tubes tho. The only thing im updating is the watering system. Hydrofarms are what im used to. They just take up alot space. If i go back to veggin for a month ill get em back out. They grow some fine trees! Well mine had air stones in each pot. U know to be honest when i first started messing with hydro i was under the impression that flood table where old school and looked right past it thinking newer is better.. Now im just thinking about the possibilities.. Being able to change the plant count and size of the plants for diff grows sounds awesome. Im definately gonna do a journal for this one!


----------



## NLXSK1 (Sep 26, 2008)

Hey Al, 

Thanks for all you do here, it is appreciated by many of us.

If I have an air conditioner where I can control the room temperature should I just set the room to 30degrees C and skip the heating pad in the clone room or should I use the heating pad anyway?

Also, when you treat your tanks with H2O2 every 3-4 days, how do you apply that chemical to your resevoirs?

TIA


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## BigBudBalls (Sep 26, 2008)

Hey Al,
Got a Bunch O'Qs for ya.

Coco Coir - any thoughts on it? I got a bunch and plan on using it like soil. Think it will survive in an Flood-n-Drain? (Granted a filter bag for the pump.)

Lollipopping- I veg my cuttings for about a month. (smaller cuttings) I feel cutting the lower stuff off in veg might be a bit nicer to the gals. I'm thinking about a week before flowering? Or maybe throughout the veg stage?

Humidity: Being a soil guy (at least for now) my humidity is low say 35-45%, see this as a prob? (just a gut feeling that hydro raises the RH more so then soil)

I'm setting up a quick & cheap Flood-n-Drain for some winter veggies. (and testing/learning)
Going to do a tray with clay pellets I guess. My Q is what to keep the plants in. RW scares me a bit. I have a nasty time cloning in it. Always keep it too wet. Net pots maybe?
Will be using the Gen Hydro nutes, since I have them already. No sauces other then the GH bloom boost.

Any subs for H2O2? (didn't think so  )

I read somewhere on here, as a rule of thumb, that if the ppm stays steady, its right, if it falls, you need it higher initially, and if it raises you need it lower initially; all as the water level drops. Seemed to make sense to me.

And old biz: They make solid state buck/boost 3 phase converter. They aren't that efficient, but are about the size of a cigar box.

Oh, a little while back, you were talking about one of the Canna nutes burning. There is one outfit out there that makes individual nutes, aka: a N sauce, P sauce, K sauce. I'll hunt them down if ya want.

Ya know? For the size of this thread, its been rather civil. A few goof posts, very little drama, and pretty much stays on track. A nice departure from the norm.

Thanks for your guidance.


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## flipsidesw (Sep 26, 2008)

They make filter bags? wow . Lol i was tryin to rig up some panty hose. I got a brick of coir myself. Interesting post ^^^


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## worble (Sep 26, 2008)

Run it on a timer during lights-off, start with about 8min 2x/day, I run mine an hour after lights-off and an hour before lights-on. 

ok do you do this every day? how old is the plant when you start using it?is it safe to use if flowering?

Sulfur is not toxic to humans. It's really quite safe to use. 

great to know this.

Something like this?

yep just about 


thanks al i will be banging your ear when i build my grow room when we get a place soon  thats if you dont mind. thanks again jeff


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## DeweyKox (Sep 26, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 'Lung infections from mouldy pot' is a wives' tale. While mouldy buds are unpleasant to smoke from beginning to end, not many mould spores are going to survive being hit with a Bic. I also don't think powdery mildew spores would survive long in a lung, even if _*somehow *_you managed to smoke the stuff without setting it alight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Al for clearing a few things for me. I am currently growing in soil with the organics. I was wrong on some of the fans in my grow room. I have a fan on the bottom that is a 4" Inline Fan rated at 80 CFM pushing fresh air in from outside. The fan I have for heat exhaust is the GrowBright 4" Inline fan uses that pushes 170 cfm of air. It is actually connected to the 400W with a flange as well as one just hanging above.I'ts dragging the hot air out of the room. The light is a 400 Watt FLORALUX ballast housing connected to the reflector all in one unit.

I will eventually get a 600W HPS with a cool tube and change the heat exhuast to the one you have posted.

So I just want to rebuild and change a few things on the next grow project. Just getting plan put together so I know what I need to change. I mean the current setup is working actually really good, and getting nice results, but they could always better. Here is the most recent pic of my buds. And a horrible drawing of what I want the room to function as......

Thanks for all your help. I'm slowly building and changing to a better setup. Will most likely end up using the old 400 w/ MH conv. bulb for clones and use the floro for seed and vegging as well.


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## DeweyKox (Sep 26, 2008)

I want to go w 600W and build it to save money, but want noise level to be low. If I change out all my 4" to 6" and add a fan control, what do you recommend I do about the ballast? Or should I go digital?


----------



## NorCalBlunts (Sep 26, 2008)

Hey Al,
THanks for your help on your last question on whether or not to trim anything over 1 inch everywhere but now since I have pruned it up (end of week 1) i am now nearing the end of week 2 and they have continued to stretch and the foliage has begun to grow dense... Would it hurt them if I trimmed again at the end of week 2 and the end of week 3?
Thanks


----------



## HAZEOHOLIC (Sep 26, 2008)

Hello Al thanks I would like to know what if one would have smalls clones can I use 5" or 6" pots untill harvest? Also would it effect yeild verse having tall clones, Also if the roots start comming out the bottom of the pots how would one address that problem. Thanks for your insight once again AL


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 26, 2008)

flipsidesw said:


> Man i wish i knew how to break up a paragraph like that.


 I break up text into paragraphs by subject. When I'm done with some idea, it's just sensible to break the para for the benefit of the reader. 


> I didnt understand what u ment by make sure they(what are u referring to) are 1/2 above the flood line. Is ther a rule for how high to flood?


Here, have a bit more of my kindergarten art...

 

RW cubes cannot tolerate frequent flooding, but pellets can. You're simply looking to keep the RW cube 1/2" above the flood level. Pellets in the 1/2" above the flood level will be damp enough for roots to seek into them. 

Users of such an arrangement may wish to handwater the _pellets around the cube_ (but not the cube itself) during the first week that the rooted clone in RW cube is in the pellets, to encourage roots to find the frequently flooded pellets down below. Wetting the cube will encourage roots to stay in the cube instead of knitting into the pellets. 


> i was under the impression that flood table where old school and looked right past it thinking newer is better..


 oops. 



> Now im just thinking about the possibilities.. Being able to change the plant count and size of the plants for diff grows sounds awesome. Im definately gonna do a journal for this one!


 I use flood systems for several reasons beyond what you've just stated, mainly high reliability and low maintenance.



NLXSK1 said:


> Hey Al,
> 
> Thanks for all you do here, it is appreciated by many of us.


no worries 



> If I have an air conditioner where I can control the room temperature should I just set the room to 30degrees C and skip the heating pad in the clone room or should I use the heating pad anyway?


 Just to be clear, you need a proper horticultural heat _*mat*_, never a heating _*pad*_ as used for people. Heating pads for people get far too hot. My heat mat is moulded in silicone rubber and lays totally flat, allowing good thermal transfer into the RW cubes. Heating pads for people are usually floppy & flexible... and are not waterproof. 

I don't think you need an aircon unit to control the air temp of a clone box to 30C. Your clonebox will have some fluoro lighting, which makes a significant amount of heat. 

 

A thermostatically controlled exhaust fan fitted to your clonebox (as you see in mine on the upper left, thermostat is at plant level) will keep air temp at 30C, presuming that the air that is available to be drawn into the clonebox is below 30C. 



> Also, when you treat your tanks with H2O2 every 3-4 days, how do you apply that chemical to your resevoirs?


 I simply measure the appropriate amt of H2O2 into a graduated measuring cup and dump it in the nute tank, nothing complex!



BigBudBalls said:


> Coco Coir - any thoughts on it? I got a bunch and plan on using it like soil. Think it will survive in an Flood-n-Drain? (Granted a filter bag for the pump.)


 I would not use coir. Coir is an organic material and can support pathogen growth or may fragment when exposed to H2O2, letting bits loose into the recirculating watering system, whatever is being used. 



> Lollipopping- I veg my cuttings for about a month. (smaller cuttings) I feel cutting the lower stuff off in veg might be a bit nicer to the gals. I'm thinking about a week before flowering? Or maybe throughout the veg stage?


 Vegging cuttings before introduction to a SoG op will cause them to get too tall. The point of flowering immediately after setting root is keeping plants short, so all bud mass is in the maximum light coverage area. 



> Humidity: Being a soil guy (at least for now) my humidity is low say 35-45%, see this as a prob? (just a gut feeling that hydro raises the RH more so then soil)


 I suppose that moisture may evaporate from certain types of hydro media more readily than from soil, but your ventilation system should cope with this. 



> I'm setting up a quick & cheap Flood-n-Drain for some winter veggies. (and testing/learning). Going to do a tray with clay pellets I guess. My Q is what to keep the plants in. RW scares me a bit. I have a nasty time cloning in it. Always keep it too wet. Net pots maybe?


 Details of watering RW cubes is here: https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html



> Any subs for H2O2? (didn't think so  )


 Yep. 



> I read somewhere on here, as a rule of thumb, that if the ppm stays steady, its right, if it falls, you need it higher initially, and if it raises you need it lower initially; all as the water level drops. Seemed to make sense to me.


 If your nute strength jumps up while the tank level falls, the tank is too small for the plants it is supplying. Undersized tanks require topping up with plain water between tank dumps, or else nute strength may bump up high enough to burn plants.

If the nute strength falls without topping the tank between dumps, there is more tank volume than needed. Try only filling the tank to 3/4 the capacity. 

If the nute strength stays constant while the water level drops, the tank size is perfect. 



> And old biz: They make solid state buck/boost 3 phase converter. They aren't that efficient, but are about the size of a cigar box.


 yeah, now all I need is the Bridgeport mill to run on that 3&#934;... and then the time to use it... 


> Oh, a little while back, you were talking about one of the Canna nutes burning. There is one outfit out there that makes individual nutes, aka: a N sauce, P sauce, K sauce. I'll hunt them down if ya want.


 I don't think the problem is the PK-13-14. I just need finer directions from Canna on how to use it. I'm waiting for a response from the Aus distributor for some details. I don't think I want to use individual elemental additives (though Canna do sell them) because I have no metering device that can pick out the EC caused by one nutrient and not the others. My TDS meter measures _*total*_ dissolved salts (or solids) hence the acronym TDS!. 



> Ya know? For the size of this thread, its been rather civil. A few goof posts, very little drama, and pretty much stays on track. A nice departure from the norm.
> 
> Thanks for your guidance.


 We aim to please. 



DeweyKox said:


> Here is the most recent pic of my buds. And a horrible drawing of what I want the room to function as......


 Nice work on the plants.

Reverse the flow direction in your cooltube depiction. Cool air should hit the socket first. Move the intake fan down low. 



> Thanks for all your help.


 no worries. 



DeweyKox said:


> I want to go w 600W and build it to save money, but want noise level to be low. If I change out all my 4" to 6" and add a fan control, what do you recommend I do about the ballast? Or should I go digital?


 If fans make too much noise, use a fan motor speed controller (_*NOT*_ a dimmer!) from the hdwe store to slow them down a little. A fan running at 80% of usual speed may make 50% of the noise. 

I'd use a std 'magnetic' ballast. There's no general advantage to electronic ballasts, they are much more costly and can't last as long as the old tech ballasts. A remote mountable ballast is important; you can put it outside the room's airmass so your vent system doesn't have to shift that heat out of the room. 



NorCalBlunts said:


> Would it hurt them if I trimmed again at the end of week 2 and the end of week 3?
> Thanks


I prune branching at the end of wk 1 & again at the end of wk 3. Same as. 



HAZEOHOLIC said:


> Hello Al thanks I would like to know what if one would have smalls clones can I use 5" or 6" pots untill harvest? Also would it effect yeild verse having tall clones,


Clones from thick stems root faster and are more productive than cuts from thin stems. However, the main reason I make mine so _tall_ is to provide some air motion space between the pot tops and the bud mass
 



> Also if the roots start comming out the bottom of the pots how would one address that problem. Thanks for your insight once again AL


If simply being exposed to air doesn't prune them off for you, you may have to do it manually. Trim them soon after they escape the drain holes, don't let big taproots form through the drains. When the roots are small, the plant is not depending on them as a major pipeline and it won't notice if you trim them off. If you allow big taproots to form, the plant will be relying on them and may suffer transplant shock type symptoms.


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## worble (Sep 26, 2008)

hey al you skipped me lol


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 26, 2008)

worble said:


> hey al you skipped me lol


I did, I didn't see your question in there. It's helpful to me if you only quote specific parts of my post that you are replying to. Wrap them with QUOTE tags to separate your comments from mine. I'm responding to quite a number of threads and if things are not separated, I do miss stuff from time to time. 



worble said:


> ok do you do this every day? how old is the plant when you start using it?is it safe to use if flowering?


Every day, 8 mins per run, 2x day, once 1h afrer lights-off and again 1h before lights-on. The sulfur evap runs every day in my flowering room. Plants begin getting treated when they are introduced to the flowering room. Totally safe to use in flowering.


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## NLXSK1 (Sep 26, 2008)

Al, 

My ambient temperature in the house right now is 32.9C and surprisingly, I like it like that!

I bought a small 9000BTU A/C unit to convert my master bathroom of approximately 90 sq ft into a grow room. That way I can temperature control just that space and allow my living conditions to remain comfortably above 80 degrees F.


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## worble (Sep 26, 2008)

thanks al  great info


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## snipsnip (Sep 27, 2008)

al.
I think I remimber seeing that u use bloom juice, (nsr green leaves )is this correct.
I use this as well.
Finally went out and bought a ppm , ph , and somthing us meter all in one.
Went to make water ph was 6.8 or somthing ..used ph down after i added nutes and brought it down to 5.8 came down on its own from 6.8 to 6.1
Checked my water 385 ppm tap water.(this is what concerns me) and makes me think there is a conversion or somthing i am missing on this new meter.
Everyone i have talked to about there tap said was between 30 and 40 ppm.
Added nutes bloom juice for flowering 1 oz per gal water is recommended...have always used this amout ppm readding was almost 2000. i am using this meter Wrong or somthing. 
To get 15oo ppm I would only be using 1/2 oz per gal and doesnt seem like enough?
Is there a math equation for this meter or somthing I am missing in my readding. 
There is a calibration fluid that came with it is said somthing about changing to .5 or somthing i didnt understand it? Ifigured you would know what i mean?
its hanna instruments all in one combo.
i got h2o2 and perlite new plants seem to being doing really well thank for that earlier on!
the yellowing leafs because of to much water without h2o2 sent me on a quest and now i am like what the fuck....but i guess if thats what i was doing before if it aint broke dont fix hu?
thanks again al
sorry about my rambling
snip


----------



## daddychrisg (Sep 27, 2008)

Nothing doing until you get 3.4 million x 8 lumen LEDs over them, then they'll turn like totally _*dank*_, man. 

How did you know? I just got back from Radio shack with all the necessary supplies for exactly that...Back to soldering, wish me luck! BTW I don't know how you find time to help everyone out dude, you are the man...Until someday....


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## CustomHydro (Sep 27, 2008)

snipsnip said:


> ppm readding was almost 2000. i am using this meter Wrong or somthing.


PPM meters need to be calibrated, but I don't think u are using it wrong. My tap water is 500ppm. U say yours is 385, and with the nutes added you are at almost 2000. 
Then you have to subtract the 385 that u started with which puts u at 1600PPM aprox.


----------



## gvega187 (Sep 27, 2008)

al, the instructions on my sulfur vap sucked as u may remember. You don't have ur vap. on a timer do you? You have to fill it all the time neways it would seem. How far do you place the cup from the heating element on your model? My instructions say to place it directly on top, but it has 4 notches above for adjustment. 

p.s instructions also recommended a 4-6 hour long session of vaporization lol.


----------



## DeweyKox (Sep 27, 2008)

*I'd use a std 'magnetic' ballast. There's no general advantage to electronic ballasts, they are much more costly and can't last as long as the old tech ballasts. A remote mountable ballast is important; you can put it outside the room's airmass so your vent system doesn't have to shift that heat out of the room. *

Would this ballast do?
High Tech Garden Supply

What do you recommend?


----------



## epoplive (Sep 27, 2008)

Hey Al, was wondering if you could give me some advice on my setup. 

I'm using the Waterfarm 8Pack kit to grow, and want to do 12/12 immediately with my clones(I think, I just want the most yield per space and time), so should I be putting more than 1 plant per bucket than? Each bucket seems to be about 1ft x 1ft so it sounds like i should be doing 4 per bucket?

Should I maybe veg for a bit if the clones started pretty small?

When you say 1-1.5oz per plant, is that dried weight?

Also, what kind of yield per plant should i expect if the room gets a bit warm and I'm using a 600watt hps for the 8 buckets?

Sorry if this is stuff you already went over, been through a bunch of pages but its gonna take a while to get through all 130. Thanks for your time man!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 27, 2008)

gvega187 said:


> You don't have ur vap. on a timer do you?


 Yes, I do and have said so *several *times in this thread. 



> You have to fill it all the time neways it would seem.


 Actually not. The thing uses very, very little sulfur. 50g will last a couple of months, a 500g packet will easily last a year. 



> How far do you place the cup from the heating element on your model? My instructions say to place it directly on top, but it has 4 notches above for adjustment.


 The same question was asked by someone else back on page 120:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *All4FreeDumb*
> _Hey Al, I just picked up one of those sulfur "burners" and there is no directions on how much sulfur to add in the dish,_
> 
> ...





DeweyKox said:


> Would this ballast do?
> High Tech Garden Supply


 Sure, that'll do fine. $104 is a good price, but this is a kit; hope you're OK with a little point-to-point wiring. 



epoplive said:


> should I be putting more than 1 plant per bucket than? Each bucket seems to be about 1ft x 1ft so it sounds like i should be doing 4 per bucket?


Depends on your lighting. If you want to run 4/sf in 8sq ft, a 400 HPS may struggle with the foliar density; you may want to use a 600. 



> Should I maybe veg for a bit if the clones started pretty small?


How small? Generally, vegging before flowering will cause plants to become too tall in a SoG op. 



> When you say 1-1.5oz per plant, is that dried weight?


Would be a bit silly of me to quote wet weight. 


> Also, what kind of yield per plant should i expect if the room gets a bit warm and I'm using a 600watt hps for the 8 buckets?


How warm? 

A cooltube, ducting & a 150mm, 200CFM axial blower should be on your shopping list.


----------



## hydrogrower420 (Sep 27, 2008)

yo al i got my heatmat but it doesnt feel very hot is that normal?it says that the temp is 30c on it.and should i use the tray i got for it?it doesnt seem like it would get the tray hot.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 27, 2008)

30C is correct. You're not making roast clone (however tasty that may be. ) We're looking for 'warm' not 'hot'!

Yes, use the tray that came with it. That will protect the heat mat from damage and dirt.


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## epoplive (Sep 27, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Depends on your lighting. If you want to run 4/sf in 8sq ft, a 400 HPS may struggle with the foliar density; you may want to use a 600.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm running a 600watt hps, had to tilt it to fit the reflector in the closet, but half the light is going directly to the plants and the other half is going directly into a mirror and back to the plants.

The clones I took are about 4 inches tall. I was reading where you said it takes 4 weeks or so for the plants to go from veg clone state to flowering, do I want to be feeding them veg or flowering nutes for those 4 weeks? If I veg I can get bigger yields per plant, but it will end up taking alot longer, right? I don't have a big enough system to get an actual SOG setup, so I'm trying to figure out what the best option for myself is with yield vs time.

The temperature fluxates a bit, it gets up to about 85 if I had to guess, and unfortunately dont have any more money for a bit to shell out. I do have a decent fan in there though

Sorry for the silly question about weight, this is my first grow(to flowering, I grew my mothers from clones) but I've already learned alot from you guys on here


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 27, 2008)

epoplive said:


> The clones I took are about 4 inches tall. I was reading where you said it takes 4 weeks or so for the plants to go from veg clone state to flowering, do I want to be feeding them veg or flowering nutes for those 4 weeks?


The vegetative habit tapers off during wk1-4 while flowering habit ramps up. Run them on flowering nutes from day 1 in the flowering area. 



> The temperature fluxates a bit, it gets up to about 85 if I had to guess, and unfortunately dont have any more money for a bit to shell out.


*NO GUESSING!* Gotta have a peak memory thermometer so you _know for sure_ what the extremes are when you're not looking in on the op. 

_*If*_ it's 85F in there, that's too hot! Max temp is 26C (78.8F). High temps will cause long internodal lengths (stretch) and fluffy buds.



> I do have a decent fan in there though


Fans don't cool air- they only move it around. If you have a circ fan in a sealed room, the room will get *warmer* as a result of heat from the fan motor. 

You must flow air _through_ your room. That means an intake from outside the room and an exhaust which also puts air outside the room. These must be organised so exhausted air can not be readily redrawn into the room.


----------



## brontobrandon1 (Sep 27, 2008)

hey al my friend has a xtrasun 600w ballast and hes been running it for like a week now and the noise coming from the ballast is almsot ear piercing with this loud ass buzzing noise. should we return it, will the buzzing noise go away?? what do u think??? heres the ballast Xtrasun Sodium 600 Watt Copper Core Ballast

peace


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## NLXSK1 (Sep 27, 2008)

brontobrandon1 said:


> hey al my friend has a xtrasun 600w ballast and hes been running it for like a week now and the noise coming from the ballast is almsot ear piercing with this loud ass buzzing noise. should we return it, will the buzzing noise go away?? what do u think??? heres the ballast Xtrasun Sodium 600 Watt Copper Core Ballast
> 
> peace


A ballast should be nearly silent, yours is defective...


----------



## epoplive (Sep 27, 2008)

NLXSK1 said:


> A ballast should be nearly silent, yours is defective...


it's normal though for the lamp itself it make a low sounding hum right?


----------



## NLXSK1 (Sep 27, 2008)

Hey Al,

I bought Canna Nutes both Substra Vega A & B. However, I got the variety for soft water and I do believe my water is actually hard. It is my understanding the difference is the calcium in the water...

Do you think this will significantly affect my grow?

Guaranteed analysis from the back says Total Nitrogen 4% Sodium Potash 2% Calcium 4% Iron .02% Chelated Iron .02% from the "A" bottle.


----------



## CustomHydro (Sep 27, 2008)

NLXSK1 said:


> Hey Al,
> 
> I bought Canna Nutes both Substra Vega A & B. However, I got the variety for soft water and I do believe my water is actually hard. It is my understanding the difference is the calcium in the water...
> 
> ...


Your water is hard, so that means it contains minerals. The Canna for soft water has extra Calcium and Magnesium, along with other trace minerals (I believe) to make up for the soft water lacking them. I think it is better that you got the soft water formula and have hard water than the other way around... 
Not too sure when you hit the point of too much ca/mg though.


----------



## speedhabit (Sep 27, 2008)

DeweyKox said:


> *I'd use a std 'magnetic' ballast. There's no general advantage to electronic ballasts, they are much more costly and can't last as long as the old tech ballasts. A remote mountable ballast is important; you can put it outside the room's airmass so your vent system doesn't have to shift that heat out of the room. *
> 
> Would this ballast do?
> High Tech Garden Supply
> ...



Ummm? No advantage to ...im sure you meant digital because all ballasts use electricity....

Anyway, digital ballasts are silent. This is a HUGE advantage. Digital Ballasts use less electricity that is a HUGE advantage. Shit man, they even burn the bulbs brighter for longer then conventional magnetic s. Explain yourself and this really bad piece of advice


----------



## epoplive (Sep 28, 2008)

hey, was wondering if you guys could give some advice on transplanting clones to hydroton. It seems like some of my clones arent doing so well since putting them into my 12-12 system from the clone box. Would the chance of survival increase if I used some cfl's for the first couple days on 24-0 instead of my 600 watt hps on 12-12?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 28, 2008)

brontobrandon1 said:


> noise coming from the ballast is almsot ear piercing with this loud ass buzzing noise. should we return it, will the buzzing noise go away?


 Ballast noise is caused by rattling laminations in the ballast core. This is a mark of a poor quality or defective ballast. It will not fix itself. 

Return it but make sure you get to listen to the replacement before you take it home. They may be made with inferior quality ballast inductors. 

My ballasts are 10 years old and are dead silent. 



epoplive said:


> it's normal though for the lamp itself it make a low sounding hum right?


 My 1000s make a small hum when just starting up but quiet down after about 30 sec. 



NLXSK1 said:


> Hey Al,
> 
> I bought Canna Nutes both Substra Vega A & B. However, I got the variety for soft water and I do believe my water is actually hard. It is my understanding the difference is the calcium in the water...
> 
> Do you think this will significantly affect my grow?


 I don't think it'll make much difference. The soft water version will include more Ca and perhaps more Mg than the hard water version.



CustomHydro said:


> Your water is hard, so that means it contains minerals. The Canna for soft water has extra Calcium and Magnesium, along with other trace minerals (I believe) to make up for the soft water lacking them. I think it is better that you got the soft water formula and have hard water than the other way around...
> Not too sure when you hit the point of too much ca/mg though.


 yeah, wot 'e said. 



speedhabit said:


> Ummm? No advantage to ...im sure you meant digital because all ballasts use electricity....


 Spoken just like someone who is not an electronics engineer. 

Lucky you, I'm a BSEE- pull up a chair and I'll explain it for you.

"Digital" is a marketing hype term and really a bit of a misnomer when applied to ballasts. 

Ballasts are current limiters; that's all they do. When I say 'electronic' as opposed to 'magnetic' or more correctly 'inductive' ballast, I am referring to the difference in the way that the current is regulated. 'Electronic' refers to *active *circuitry used to control current as opposed to exploiting the characters of a combination of *passive* components i.e. coils & capacitors. 

Electronic, or 'digital' ballasts, as their marketeers would like to have you refer to them (since it sounds so 'high tech') limit current by way of some SCRs or triacs which do the actual current throttling to the lamp tube, but which themselves are operated by control circuitry, which may (or may not) happen to do some digital wave shaping. The term 'digital' is often used in a broad an misleading sense; I have a pair of headphones that are labelled 'DIGITAL' in big gold letters... but they are simply voice coils, magnets and diaphragms, just like Marconi's own 'cans.' Nothing 'digital' about them That they're usable with a digital audio player was enough for the maker to slap the DIGITAL!! word on them, despite the signal being used to drive any headhone being very, very analogue. 

Inductive or 'magnetic' ballasts limit current by way of a coil of copper wire on a laminated iron core along with a capacitor of a certain value for a particular sized HPS lamp tube. 

In other words, the 'electronic' ballast controls current by using what amounts to an amplifier (you technerds will know the old adage- it's either an oscillator, an amplifier or a filter) as opposed to taking advantage of the physical properties of an LC (inductance-capacitance) network. 



> Anyway, digital ballasts are silent. This is a HUGE advantage.


 They can't be any more silent than a properly operating inductive ballast. Only a defective inductive ballast makes any noise. 



> Digital Ballasts use less electricity that is a HUGE advantage.


 Earlier this year, I tested a Lumatek 600 side by side with a std ballast, driving a GE Lucagrow 600HPS tube. The Lumatek drew a whopping 9% less power from AC mains than the std ballast, owing to the lack of eddy current losses inherent in an inductive ballast. 

9% savings is not terribly significant in terms of operation, unless you are using a large number of ballasts and 9% savings allows you to run all the lighting you need without exceeding the service current capacity. While electronic ballasts are coming down in price of late, it will take a long, long time to recover the difference in purchase price through the power savings difference. 



> Shit man, they even burn the bulbs brighter for longer then conventional magnetic s.


 False. This is marketing hype. Remember, a ballast is a current limiter. The lamp tube is designed to tolerate a certain amount of current, doesn't matter how you throttle it, just as long as you _*do*_ throttle it suiting the power rating for that lamp. The only way to make an HPS lamp make more luminous output than rated is to drop more current across it than it is rated for. Doing so will increase luminous output but will shorten lamp life, could be dramatically if it's really excessive. 

Back to my side-by-side comparison of the Lumatek vs a std ballast. I used a lux meter to measure the luminous output of the lamp tube, as it was operating on either ballast. The luminous output was *exactly the same* with either ballast. I also measured the currents to the lamp tube from the output of either ballast. Unremarkably, it was the same for both ballasts. 



> Explain yourself and this really bad piece of advice


 I've explained myself. Now that you understand what's going on, don't you feel a bit silly for calling my advice 'really bad?'



epoplive said:


> hey, was wondering if you guys could give some advice on transplanting clones to hydroton. It seems like some of my clones arent doing so well since putting them into my 12-12 system from the clone box.


What's the problem?


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## BigBudBalls (Sep 28, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I've explained myself. Now that you understand what's going on, don't you feel a bit silly for calling my advice 'really bad?'


Al, was that 9% drop on the whole system or just ballast? If the whole system, thats impressive. My 400W draws 450W. Dropping 9% makes it 409.5. For the ballasts, thats a 80% drop. (The marketing hype on the power numbers)

A for the lights numbers, the 'extra light' is as the bulb ages supposedly. But we usually don't care about that since we change bulbs out long before they go.

Another perk to inductive is that you can run out and get a replacement part rather easy. Digitals, not so much. I have a couple rework stations here, but desoldering PTH sucks! Granted they (inductive) are pretty rock solid to start with. I'd much rather fix via wire nuts then bench work.

If I was to get a digital, I'd make sure if it fails, the co will send out a new replacement one before getting the old one back. Even if out of warranty. I'd rather not be out a lamp for a few weeks. They do fail. They are a LOT better, but still fail.


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## Gimme (Sep 28, 2008)

Just finished reading the whole thread. Took me 3 days, and I only read Al's posts starting on page 10.

Can't believe how many times the same questions keep getting asked over and over and over... come on people.

Here are my questions:

1. What are your thoughts on soilless mixes, like Sunshine? I would assume it is more like growing in soil since I just finished my first grow using it, and I watered every other day (or when pot was light). Do you use H2O2 with this type of medium?

2. What are your thoughts on regenerating a plant? Not sure if that's the right term. What I mean is, after a plant is done flowering, you trim half of it and put it back in the veg room. My dealer has done this many times with success.

Reason I ask about regenerating is because there is one plant from my first grow that is awesome, and I didn't take clones from it and would like to keep growing that string.

3. You suggest that if one has an air conditioned room and provide CO2, that there's no need to exhaust air out of the room. Do you use the "Outdoor Vent / Exhaust" feature on the unit or just recycle the same air? I'm talking about a window/wall unit, like this one. What about carbon scrubbers? Do you just put it inside the room with an inline fan attached to it?


Thanks.


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## DR. VonDankenstine (Sep 28, 2008)

I run the Global Greenhouse 600 digi's and they seem to work well up to this point. I have as backup my old 1000 and 400 magn.-I have found that the digi's run allot cooler and have zero noise. My magnetics didn't have a rattle but both have a loud hum and produce allot of heat. I love the weight and size of the digi's---(about the same size as a car amp.). They say 20% less power consumption than magn. But I believe your tests AL and 5 to 10% sounds about right. The 600's ran me $200.00---I don't know the current costs of magnetic 600's. Anyway I'm soo ready for winter---I've had enough of summer and the heat. Take care.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 28, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> Al, was that 9% drop on the whole system or just ballast?



If I recall correctly, it was 465W vs 425W out of the mains. 



> A for the lights numbers, the 'extra light' is as the bulb ages supposedly. But we usually don't care about that since we change bulbs out long before they go.


Yep, I didn't cover that 'more starts per lamp life' claim, but you're quite right, that's both true and insignificant if you relamp annually per most horticultural HPS mfr guidelines. The electronic ballast doesn't overcurrent the tube so heavily on strike, so you get more starts. Important if you're a city council running a few thousand streetlights, not so important for you & I. 

Lumatek say on their site: "up to 30% more lumens output than some old style magnetic ballasts." I don't know which 'old style' ballasts they're talking about but I measured identical luminous intensity from either the Lumatek or an ordinary CWA inductive ballast. 


> Another perk to inductive is that you can run out and get a replacement part rather easy. Digitals, not so much. I have a couple rework stations here, but desoldering PTH sucks! Granted they (inductive) are pretty rock solid to start with. I'd much rather fix via wire nuts then bench work.


Yeah, my contention with durability is that a cap & a coil of copper wire on an iron core is inherently going to be more durable than semiconductor junctions and soldered connections. Inductive ballasts last approximately forever in no small part because they're stone-age simple. 



> If I was to get a digital, I'd make sure if it fails, the co will send out a new replacement one before getting the old one back. Even if out of warranty. I'd rather not be out a lamp for a few weeks. They do fail.They are a LOT better, but still fail.


Yep, good points all, but it's still a good idea to have a spare. I pay $170 for 1000CWA ballasts. Having a new spare unit on the shelf is stupidly cheap insurance, so I keep one of those and also a spare 400 ballast for the mum area.


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## NLXSK1 (Sep 28, 2008)

Gimme said:


> Just finished reading the whole thread. Took me 3 days, and I only read Al's posts starting on page 10.
> 
> Can't believe how many times the same questions keep getting asked over and over and over... come on people.
> 
> ...


Are you sure you really read all of his posts?

1. You ask about H2O2 with this mixture: Formulated with Canadian Sphagnum peat moss, coarse grade perlite, gypsum, Dolomitic lime, and our long-lasting wetting agent.

Now, I would think that the peat moss would pretty much eliminate the use of H2O2 from that point because it is an organic but I could be wrong.

2. What would the purpose be of re-vegging a plant when you have perfectly good clones all of uniform size to put into production? I mean you could do it but should you?

3. You would recirculate the room air and have no exhaust from the grow room. The plants would create oxygen and use up the CO2 provided. There would be no transfer of air out of the grow room so no need for a filter.


----------



## Gimme (Sep 28, 2008)

I don't have clones of that plant.


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## BigBudBalls (Sep 28, 2008)

Hey Al, happen to know the 'style name' of the ballast to lamp socket?

If the Aus is like the US versions its 2 round and one flat prongs.

I want to modify my ballast and cord set so its more standard (I hate proprietary stuff.)

I came up with HYL, but Tyco/Ampheol doesn't know it.


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## VictorVIcious (Sep 28, 2008)

NLXSK1 said:


> > Are you sure you really read all of his posts?
> >
> > 1. You ask about H2O2 with this mixture: Formulated with Canadian Sphagnum peat moss, coarse grade perlite, gypsum, Dolomitic lime, and our long-lasting wetting agent.
> >
> ...


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## Gimme (Sep 28, 2008)

VV

My dealer has been growing for 7 years and has done this many times with success. He tells me that there are some strings which are a pain in the ass to regenerate (Blueberry for example) but others do revert back to vegetative state without any problem and/or turning into hermies. Like these two beautiful Mother's Finest he has at the moment. Reverted without a problem.

The hard part is leaving half the buds on the plant when you know that it's the best one out of your whole crop.


----------



## fitzyno1 (Sep 28, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> Hey Al, happen to know the 'style name' of the ballast to lamp socket?
> 
> If the Aus is like the US versions its 2 round and one flat prongs.
> 
> ...


BBB i have these IEC 3-pin power plug on my Ballast/reflectors, are they the standard plugs?


----------



## BigBudBalls (Sep 28, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> BBB i have these IEC 3-pin power plug on my Ballast/reflectors, are they the standard plugs?
> View attachment 204347


Not the standard I've seen. But I think thats what I'm going to go with. Can get that locally (like probably my garage)


----------



## epoplive (Sep 28, 2008)

since a picture's worth a thousand words...here's what's going on...


< removed giant pictures of sopping wet little plants >

(please attach your pictures to the post, and a thumbnail will show)


I transplanted them from the ez cloner straight to the hydroton 2 days ago(no rockwool)


----------



## VictorVIcious (Sep 28, 2008)

Gimme said:


> VV
> 
> My dealer has been growing for 7 years and has done this many times with success. He tells me that there are some strings which are a pain in the ass to regenerate (Blueberry for example) but others do revert back to vegetative state without any problem and/or turning into hermies. Like these two beautiful Mother's Finest he has at the moment. Reverted without a problem.
> 
> The hard part is leaving half the buds on the plant when you know that it's the best one out of your whole crop.


Sorry, I didn't mean to be asking you that, I was asking if N whatever was qualified to speak on that subject not the one he wanted to talk about. I have a MerriStem, its over three feet tall, its in the front of my grow area to remind me of the one I didn't save, it was one of the first five plants I had. The others were satavias, all were bag seed. This plant didn't seem to be a great plant, it never got over 4' tall no matter what I did, produced over 2 oz of over dried bud, like I said I was new, and I didn't save it or clone it. I have not saved a plant like that, I know it can be done, it does take a long time, like three months maybe longer before you will get a good clone off of it. If you are not sure what strain it is and you want to save it please be my guest, I took 40 clones off plants that had been in flowering for 6 weeks or longer, when I figured out what I lost by not cloning that plant, it is a learning experience, you will talk to that plant, you will be friends. Do it !!! VV


----------



## NLXSK1 (Sep 28, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean to be asking you that, I was asking if N whatever was qualified to speak on that subject not the one he wanted to talk about. I have a MerriStem, its over three feet tall, its in the front of my grow area to remind me of the one I didn't save, it was one of the first five plants I had. The others were satavias, all were bag seed. This plant didn't seem to be a great plant, it never got over 4' tall no matter what I did, produced over 2 oz of over dried bud, like I said I was new, and I didn't save it or clone it. I have not saved a plant like that, I know it can be done, it does take a long time, like three months maybe longer before you will get a good clone off of it. If you are not sure what strain it is and you want to save it please be my guest, I took 40 clones off plants that had been in flowering for 6 weeks or longer, when I figured out what I lost by not cloning that plant, it is a learning experience, you will talk to that plant, you will be friends. Do it !!! VV


The question was redundant. If he only had a plant to re-veg then since there is only one option it is logical to do so. He already stated knowledge that it would work.

For a continual op however, it would make no sense to re-veg the plants.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 28, 2008)

Gimme said:


> Can't believe how many times the same questions keep getting asked over and over and over... come on people.


 I think we're (again) up against the practical size limit of a discussion forum thread. Same thing happened in https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/6592-get-harvest-every-2-weeks.html where you just could not expect ppl to trudge through 190 pages of posts. I could start a new thread but the same questions would get repeated. All I can ask is that folks do their due diligence and read broadly before asking queries here. 



> 1. What are your thoughts on soilless mixes, like Sunshine? I would assume it is more like growing in soil since I just finished my first grow using it, and I watered every other day (or when pot was light). Do you use H2O2 with this type of medium?


 With the peat & lime, this is mix not suitable for use as a medium in a recirculating hydroponic system. The peat is not compatible with H2O2 and the lime will shift the pH. 



> 2. What are your thoughts on regenerating a plant? Not sure if that's the right term. What I mean is, after a plant is done flowering, you trim half of it and put it back in the veg room. My dealer has done this many times with success.


 Sure, you can reveg a plant after flowering, but it's not the most desirable practise. It takes about 6-8 weeks to return the plant to vegetative growth mode (pruning back the mixed veg/flower habit growth that will appear in the process) before the revegged plant can be used as a mum or have enough new veg matter so it can be flowered and will have a decent yield. Old plants also tend to get rootbound and may have picked up some gnats in the rootmass. Revegged plants are poor yielders when flowered. It's much more productive and time-efficient to just keep mother plants and do a fresh batch of cuttings when you need new plants. 



> Reason I ask about regenerating is because there is one plant from my first grow that is awesome, and I didn't take clones from it and would like to keep growing that string.


 You've cited one of the few cases where the heroics of revegging may be warranted. It can be done, but it takes a long, long time, in relative terms. In this case, you'd reveg until the growth returns to pure veg habit then get some cuttings, which you'll use to establish some new mother plants. 



> 3. You suggest that if one has an air conditioned room and provide CO2, that there's no need to exhaust air out of the room. Do you use the "Outdoor Vent / Exhaust" feature on the unit or just recycle the same air?


 If you have a proper CO2 system (tank/reg/controller), you just continuously recycle the same airmass. The 'vent/exhaust' feature on small window units only introduces a very small amount of outdoor air into the air conditioned space, so that vent feature won't be useful for exchanging the airmass; CO2 will be a must in such situation. 


> What about carbon scrubbers? Do you just put it inside the room with an inline fan attached to it?


 Carbon filters are often fairly large. It may be useful to put the thing outside the room and push air from the op into it. You can arrange the system to have the filter inside the room if you like, just takes up room in the op which you may or may not have to spare. In any case, you'll need a centrifugal blower when you are using a carbon filter. 



DR. VonDankenstine said:


> I run the Global Greenhouse 600 digi's and they seem to work well up to this point.


 Yep, an electronic ballast will definitely light up an HPS bottle, but will it do it for 10 years? 



> I have as backup my old 1000 and 400 magn.


 Smart move, keep those (and matching spare tubes) handy. 



> I have found that the digi's run allot cooler and have zero noise. My magnetics didn't have a rattle but both have a loud hum and produce allot of heat.


 Yep, the heat comes from eddy currents in the iron core laminations. However, it doesn't matter how hot a ballast runs if you locate it outside the room's airmass. 

Loose laminations are the cause of the hmmmmm. High quality ballast inductor laminations are often bolted and the inductor dipped in shellac to keep the laminations from vibrating, some even have a few small weld beads across the lams to hold them still. When buying ballasts, you gotta listen to them before taking them home.



> I love the weight and size of the digi's---(about the same size as a car amp.).


 I guess that's important if you gotta move them often...! 


> They say 20% less power consumption than magn. But I believe your tests AL and 5 to 10% sounds about right.


 Count on sellers of anything to make their case look as good as possible. Comparisons are most often made against the worst performing competitive device.



> The 600's ran me $200.00---I don't know the current costs of magnetic 600's.


 I can get them for $80.05/ea. Local price on a Lumatek 600 is $247. The $166.15 difference will buy 1107 kWh @ 0.15/kWh. That 1107kWh is good for a bit more than 1846 running hours for a 600. That's about 6 months worth of 12/12 flowering operation. 



NLXSK1 said:


> Now, I would think that the peat moss would pretty much eliminate the use of H2O2 from that point because it is an organic but I could be wrong.


 Yep, I'm with you.



> 3. You would recirculate the room air and have no exhaust from the grow room. The plants would create oxygen and use up the CO2 provided. There would be no transfer of air out of the grow room so no need for a filter.


 Quite so.



Gimme said:


> I don't have clones of that plant.


 I HATE it when that happens! 



BigBudBalls said:


> Hey Al, happen to know the 'style name' of the ballast to lamp socket?


 Nope, sorry.



> If the Aus is like the US versions its 2 round and one flat prongs.


I don't know what they're using on US market ballasts, but this is how they are made for Aus:



The ballast to lamp connector has a round earthing pin to prevent some bright spark from plugging their lamp lead straight into the mains. 



> I want to modify my ballast and cord set so its more standard (I hate proprietary stuff.)


 Easy to do, just make sure whatever connector you use can handle the ~1.5-4kV pulse the ignitor sends down the line to the lamp. 



Gimme said:


> VV
> 
> My dealer has been growing for 7 years and has done this many times with success.


 Sure, you can definitely do it, but it's definitely heroic. You would not want to make revegging part of your usual growing plan, rather it should be done only in emergencies, where you would otherwise lose that DNA. 



> The hard part is leaving half the buds on the plant when you know that it's the best one out of your whole crop.


 Ah... if you're going to reveg, take off all the buds, leave the fan leaves. 



epoplive said:


> since a picture's worth a thousand words...here's what's going on...


These look very badly overwatered. How often are you flooding?


----------



## epoplive (Sep 28, 2008)

It's a drip system, not a flood system, but the drip is constant...i figured that was fine since there was no rockwool and the hydroton doesnt hold much water. What would you suggest for a watering schedule?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 28, 2008)

epoplive said:


> It's a drip system, not a flood system, but the drip is constant...i figured that was fine since there was no rockwool and the hydroton doesnt hold much water. What would you suggest for a watering schedule?


Agreed, I would also have expected that with pellets and no RW, a continuous drip would probably be OK. However, these plants are not tolerating it, might be due to their small size and thus small rootmasses. 

If it's not overwatering, it could also be root damage or disease. Are you using H2O2 in your nutes? 

In the short term, back off the watering to 5mins/hr.


----------



## epoplive (Sep 28, 2008)

not h2o2, but i am using hydroguard


----------



## KirklandsFinest08 (Sep 28, 2008)

do you really need that stuff im just using flora series from gh and that it i have 3 waterfarms and home made res


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 28, 2008)

Hydroguard is an enzymatic cleaner. It's often used with organic grows. It is protein based, providing enzymes which break down certain compounds. 

I very frequently hear about grows with root problems which Hydroguard doesn't fix but H2O2 does. Hydroguard is not compatible with H2O2. H2O2 will instantly nuke the proteins in any enzymatic agent. 

H2O2 is not compatible with organic nutes. If you're using organic nutes, switch to an inorganic nutrient and then use H2O2 50% grade at 1ml/L, reapplied every 3-4 days.


----------



## epoplive (Sep 28, 2008)

yeah, definately not using organic nutes. when you say it's not compatible, you mean it will just basically render the hydroguard inactive but the h2o2 will still protect the roots right? wish i hand't just stocked up on a giant bottle of the hydroguard, lol.

thanks for all your help al, much appreciated!


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## fitzyno1 (Sep 28, 2008)

Al, i don't know about you or others, but it takes me forever to get into this thread of yours. Is it my computer, or does anyone else find it takes long?


----------



## NLXSK1 (Sep 28, 2008)

epoplive said:


> yeah, definately not using organic nutes. when you say it's not compatible, you mean it will just basically render the hydroguard inactive but the h2o2 will still protect the roots right? wish i hand't just stocked up on a giant bottle of the hydroguard, lol.
> 
> thanks for all your help al, much appreciated!


What will happen is that the H2O2 solution will attempt to break down the organics but be overwhelmed by the sheer volume.

Thus the H202 will be neutrilized and provide no protection for the roots.

If you want to use H202 you cannot be using organic nutrients or an organic medium.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 28, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> Al, i don't know about you or others, but it takes me forever to get into this thread of yours. Is it my computer, or does anyone else find it takes long?


It's not the thread, it is RIU itself running waaaaaaaaaaaay slow, has been for the last 6h. I've tried to ping rollitup.org a couple of times, sometimes it just times out completely:



> Microsoft(R) Windows DOS
> (C)Copyright Microsoft Corp 1990-2001.
> 
> C:\>ping rollitup.org
> ...


It's taking me several minutes to open each post. 

I'm giving up until tomorrow, hopefully admin has it sorted by then.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 28, 2008)

NLXSK1 said:


> What will happen is that the H2O2 solution will attempt to break down the organics but be overwhelmed by the sheer volume.
> 
> Thus the H202 will be neutrilized and provide no protection for the roots.
> 
> If you want to use H202 you cannot be using organic nutrients or an organic medium.


yeah, wot 'e said.


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## HATCH (Sep 28, 2008)

Hey Al B. What's Up???,,,Was At The Hydro-Store The Last Week,,,They Have Taken The Botanicare HydroGaurd Off The Shelves, & The Government Is Taking The 35% H2O2 Off The Shelves,,& You Will Have To Have A Chemical License Just To Get It,,,Don't Know About Down Under???~~~But Here In The State's They Are Getting Strick With Everything!!!\


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 28, 2008)

Hydroguard doesn't work terribly well from what I can divine from commentary on here, so no great loss there. 

I have heard from one California RIU poster that they could not get H2O2, that it was being withdrawn from sale. On the same day, I was able to find 4 hydro shops in LA that had 35% H2O2 on the shelf (at reasonably good prices too, I might add). A couple weeks later, I was contacted by a UK RIU poster who said that H2O2 was not available in the UK due to its potential use in the manufacture of the highly unstable but homebrewable explosive, TATP (triacetone triperoxide). A week later, another RIU user found her some 50% H2O2 in the UK, and that shop's mgt had no plans to remove it from sale. 

I don't know WTF is going on, lots of rumours about the stuff being pulled off shelves. I have no idea why these rumours are happening, but everyone I know who has had problems getting H2O2 from some places has managed to find it elsewhere with a little diligent shopping. 

BTw, what's a 'chemical license' and how do you get one?


----------



## fitzyno1 (Sep 28, 2008)

Al, with this RIU running very slow, i couldn't be bothered looking a post which you said, 'not to us a dimmer switch for an extractor fan'. Why, and what is the difference in a dimmer switch and a fan controller? I use a dimmer switch for my 16" oscillating fan.


----------



## HATCH (Sep 28, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Hydroguard doesn't work terribly well from what I can divine from commentary on here, so no great loss there.
> 
> I have heard from one California RIU poster that they could not get H2O2, that it was being withdrawn from sale. On the same day, I was able to find 4 hydro shops in LA that had 35% H2O2 on the shelf (at reasonably good prices too, I might add). A couple weeks later, I was contacted by a UK RIU poster who said that H2O2 was not available in the UK due to its potential use in the manufacture of the highly unstable but homebrewable explosive, TATP (triacetone triperoxide). A week later, another RIU user found her some 50% H2O2 in the UK, and that shop's mgt had no plans to remove it from sale.
> 
> ...


A Chemical Application License, Is What You Have To Have To Do Commercial Fertilizing Or Pesticides...As Far As Getting One???...I'm Sure You Can Get A Packet From A University, Fertilizer Or Pesticide Company To Study,,,& I'm Sure They Could Tell You When The Testing Is Going On & Where???

You Probably Already Have One???,,& Are Just Fucking With Me???EH????


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 29, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> Al, with this RIU running very slow, i couldn't be bothered looking a post which you said, 'not to us a dimmer switch for an extractor fan'. Why, and what is the difference in a dimmer switch and a fan controller? I use a dimmer switch for my 16" oscillating fan.


Dimmers for incandescent lighting are not suitable for inductive loads, only resistive loads like... well, incandescent lighting. Motor speed controllers can throttle back a motor AND can work as a light dimmer. 

I don't know how you are getting a dimmer to work on a motor; usually what happens when a dimmer is used as such is that the motor stalls when the dimmer is dialed down from max speed.



HATCH said:


> A Chemical Application License, Is What You Have To Have To Do Commercial Fertilizing Or Pesticides...
> 
> [...]
> 
> You Probably Already Have One???,,& Are Just Fucking With Me???EH????


Admittedly, I haven't lived in the US in >10 years, but I've never heard of anything like that before, even while I was living there. 

There's no such thing in Aus, to the best of my knowledge.


----------



## fitzyno1 (Sep 29, 2008)

Yeah Al, the lowest speed on my oscillating fan was too fast in my growroom, so i've been using this little dimmer here to run my oscillating fan (for around a month now), it has never let me down. I can reduce speed until it slows to a stop. 
I run my extraction fan on a timer for 5 minutes every half hour. But i was contemplating getting another one of these dimmers to run my 100mm extraction (carbon filter) fan, constantly on very low. I think the fan controllers are very expensive. I don't have a fan for the intake to my growroom, its passively coming in through a larger 150mm ducting from outside The plug for the extraction fan is in attic, if sometime i get of my lazy arse, i'll climb into the attic and test the dimmer that i already have to see if it works.


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## Dugout (Sep 29, 2008)

High Al, Dugout here see been doing some investigation on other threads and I found this one. I am on pg. 4 right know but had a quick question since you said this is kind of an open farm I figured I would ask. You know me your royal pain in the ass. Anyway I have 2 seedlings going one is about 2 to 3" tall and I found an old heating pad just regular not a horticultural brand and I have it on low and under flouresent light over kitchen sink. I was just wondering how long does it take to see second set of leaves. I have the first 2 leaves and have been on about 2 days how long does it take to see second leaf set to start. really I am wanting to know how long before transfering to hydro unit. I have cut the water off of my plant that is growing and will pull in 2 days to cure so then I will sterilize everything clean grow room and transfer when appropriate. Now if that isn't a newbie question I don't know what is. Peace and out bro. The Ole Hippy DUGOUT


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## Dugout (Sep 29, 2008)

Hey zen master wipe your nose I see a little brown showing up. (ha ha ha) couldn't resist was to easy. I have a problem my 2 year old called the FBI about my grow and they said she was full of shit I checked the diaper but she was fine. 50,000 comedians out of work and you guys are stuck with me PEACE DUGOUT


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 29, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> Yeah Al, the lowest speed on my oscillating fan was too fast in my growroom, so i've been using this little dimmer here to run my oscillating fan (for around a month now), it has never let me down. I can reduce speed until it slows to a stop.


That's really pretty unusual that you can get a dimmer to work as a motor speed controller. Your dimmer is clearly different than those I have encountered in the US & Australia. 

Dimmers which I have tried to use on motors tend to be able to start the motor and run it at about 60-80% normal speed, but when the control is dialled down even a little bit off the max setting, the motor stalls. 

Some light dimmers may work to control a (brushless AC) motor if you parallel an incandescent lamp with the motor. 

Now you have me off on the hunt for schematics, looking for the differences between the two circuits. I haven't found the info I want quite yet, but here's a couple of samples:

super simple dimmer

AC motor speed controller

They're broadly similar as you can see from the schematics. 

This doc goes into some detail about applying a light dimmer control IC as a MSC by limiting the firing angle of the triac. This could be the difference between the dimmer you have and those I have played with in the past. 

Now I'm curious... more as I find it.


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## Old in the Way (Sep 29, 2008)

> A Chemical Application License, Is What You Have To Have To Do Commercial Fertilizing Or Pesticides...As Far As Getting One???...I'm Sure You Can Get A Packet From A University, Fertilizer Or Pesticide Company To Study,,,& I'm Sure They Could Tell You When The Testing Is Going On & Where???




Chem Ap Licenses are easy to obtain.

Check with your State Dept of Ag. Tell them you want to sit for the next available test in your area and you want to purchase the study materials from them or on their website. These are given 2-4x/yr in most metro areas and are most commonly used by them bug guys, commercial turf and landscape companies as well as for commercial hrt/floriculture and ag business'. I still have mine from 15 yrs ago and you must take a couple hrs a yr of continuing education to maintain it. Although i heard about hydroguard being recalled but have not had any probs sourcing the 35% in the southeast--not needed my license either-I did recently discover you need a Pharmacists License where I am to purchase 50% (at least at lab/med supply wherehouses).

It may be worth getting your license anyway--you will find the pest section of the course invaluable. 

-OitW


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 29, 2008)

Dugout said:


> You know me your royal pain in the ass.


 That's not my opinion of you.



> Anyway I have 2 seedlings going one is about 2 to 3" tall and I found an old heating pad just regular not a horticultural brand


 Use care that your heating pad does not exceed 30C. 


> and I have it on low and under flouresent light over kitchen sink. I was just wondering how long does it take to see second set of leaves.


 Depends on a number of factors, mainly how much light you're throwing at it and to some degree the strain itself. 



> I am wanting to know how long before transfering to hydro unit.


 When the plants have a decent spray of roots, they can be introduced to an automated watering system. 






Dugout said:


> Hey zen master wipe your nose I see a little brown showing up.


umm, WTF are you talking about?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 29, 2008)

Old in the Way said:


> Chem Ap Licenses are easy to obtain.
> 
> Check with your State Dept of Ag.
> 
> ...


Is this licence available in all US states?


----------



## fitzyno1 (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes Al, went up and tested it, and this little bugger works everything both oscillating fan or 100mm extraction fan:
Dimmer Socket Switch Light Table Lamp Mains Plug in on eBay, also, Electrical Fittings, DIY Materials, Home Garden (end time 26-Oct-08 08:53:36 GMT)
They are only £7 in.P+P. I only bought it cause it was the cheapest dimmer switch on Ebay.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 29, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> Yes Al, went up and tested it, and this little bugger works everything both oscillating fan or 100mm extraction fan:


Lucky you; most dimmers will not run a motor.


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## Old in the Way (Sep 29, 2008)

As far as i know there are some states that do not regulate the hort and landscape businesses so no license needed to purchase horticultural grade products but if it is a listed substance for explosive compounds you may need an applicators license from the dept of ag specifically for entamological purposes (which all states have) in order to purchase something like high-test h2o2. My knowledge in regards to the license is limited to its uses in hort here in the SE of the USofA. Cali is its own country so whooo knows out there (buy it up where they got it) Thats what i did with Hydroguard before you learned me good about the h2o2. 

BTW......I know you deal with 400 posts a week so I don't expect you to remember my highly ambicious but well researched op that I posted about in early september, but....

i am happy to report that my ABF style op is kicking along. Cut my first batch of clones from my first 37 parent plants.The Clone Cabinet I set-up is 1200mmx1500x1500high. Temp is a balmy 30, RH is running 75% (thay need a patting your own back smiley) Have 80 clones in my aero-cloner (with water at 30 degrees) and 65 in rapid rooters on a heat mat (also at 30). All but 2 are doing quite well (again insert patting your own back smiley-both that are struggling are on the heat mat) since cutting 48 hrs ago. My second batch of parents are in week 3 and will be ready to provide an abundance of cuttings in a couple weeks. The flower room is all dialed in and ready for the first batch (hopefully in 10-12 days).
Will keep you posted...thanks again for all your help a few weeks back.

-OitW

ps-i added another 1kw in the flower room after reading up on your opinion of light movers-so now the movers just go a couple feet, back and forth.
96sq.ft./4000watts=40watts per--should be solid (the room and the buds, lol)

Thanks again al-maybe we can burn one at the cup this year. If not in Amsterdam then perhaps when i holiday down yonder (or is that under)

O'bama-Vote Irish 
-sry bout the political plug I just love my new bumper sticker


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks for the follow up, hope things keep going well.


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## BigBudBalls (Sep 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> super simple dimmer
> 
> AC motor speed controller
> 
> ...


The use of the neon bulb to trigger the triac is kinda cool (in the hack sorta way. A little strange too.)

The source of the last link/PDF, I used to live *right* there. Kinda cool to see the old 'hood posted. 

I've always dug zero-cross switching. Simple effective design.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 29, 2008)

Here's a bit of fun. ABC's Gardening Australia video on hydroponics for common veggies. 

Ep 32 contains a segment on home outdoor hydroponics for veggies;



> Episode 32 - 27/09/2008 WMV MP4


There's an extra clip only viewable online available here: Gardening Australia - Video - Hydroponics for deep rooted vegetables

Leo uses small (100mm or so) NFT channels filled with perlite for small leafy vegetables. He uses modified, inexpensive buckets for deeper rooted veg like broccoli & caulifliower. Looks like he drip feeds the buckets and again uses perlite media. Either method would suit cannabis, but the NFT channels would best suit the small plants in SoG. The bucket system would suit larger plants or vegging mums.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 29, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> The use of the neon bulb to trigger the triac is kinda cool (in the hack sorta way. A little strange too.)


One of those cheap & dirty tricks. 



> The source of the last link/PDF, I used to live *right* there. Kinda cool to see the old 'hood posted.


Actually I'm stalking you. 

What I'm trying to work out is why there is such a significant cost difference between MSCs and dimmers for resistive loads. I pay about $11-12 for a 300W incand dimmer while a MSC sets me back $32. There's no real real common way of doing the job, making justification of the cost difference a bit difficult, but I would expect that the 'matic with the lowest parts count wins. 

I'm trying to resist the temptation to tear apart a copy of each I have around here to cost out the SCR or di/triac used etc. If the difference between an MSC & a dimmer which in std form won't run a brushless AC motor at continuously variable speed without stalling is just a couple of component values, I'm gonna be _*seriously*_ miffed.


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## BigBudBalls (Sep 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Actually I'm stalking you.


A few years behind and quite a few miles/km off. 
Marco!



> What I'm trying to work out is why there is such a significant cost difference between MSCs and dimmers for resistive loads. I pay about $11-12 for a 300W incand dimmer while a MSC sets me back $32. There's no real real common way of doing the job, making justification of the cost difference a bit difficult, but I would expect that the 'matic with the lowest parts count wins.
> 
> I'm trying to resist the temptation to tear apart a copy of each I have around here to cost out the SCR or di/triac used etc. If the difference between an MSC & a dimmer which in std form won't run a brushless AC motor at continuously variable speed without stalling is just a couple of component values, I'm gonna be _*seriously*_ miffed.


I'm no BSEE, but from the 'real world' of being a tech working on what the engineers design. (its a lot of fun to reverse engineer then try to fix for less money ) But a 'quality' speed control is usually done via freq drive (and a motor designed for freq mod) 

My feeling (not even opinion) is that for speed control of an AC motor(non freq), its best to adjust the angle for the brushes (or its counterpart) Ok, FAR from a trivial task.

I have a new freq motor, drive, and PLC sitting here to play with (oh encoder too) Shit! I can make a killer vent system. Single huge motor (1/4HP, huge for a vent system) and then open/close duct dampers, change internal (house) vs external(outside) venting.

I hate you! Like I need *more* projects! 
(a $6k room for 12 plants a year!)


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## DoobyDoo (Sep 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I'm trying to resist the temptation to tear apart a copy of each I have around here to cost out the SCR or di/triac used etc. If the difference between an MSC & a dimmer which in std form won't run a brushless AC motor at continuously variable speed without stalling is just a couple of component values, I'm gonna be _*seriously*_ miffed.


You have piqued my interest as well. The guy said it was the cheapest dimmer on eBay.... is it possible that rather than a resistive dimmer it is some uber-cheap Chinese-made (gotta be if it's electronics that cheap...) PWM controller? That seems to me like it would work just as well for an incandescent light or motor.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 29, 2008)

Well, there's PWM, then there's simple wave chopping. I would expect an analogue PWM controller, like the frq driven controller BBB describes, to have a variable freq oscillator and an amplifier, then a means of clipping the wave. Digital PWM sounds comparatively simpler. 

What's happening in the triac based dimmers and MSCs I've looked at is they're using a full wave bridge to make pulsed DC, then are chopping off part of the waveform by altering at what part of the waveform the triac begins to conduct so to reduce the duty cycle rather than generating a signal and amplifying it to drive the load.


----------



## BigBudBalls (Sep 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Well, there's PWM, then there's simple wave chopping. I would expect an analogue PWM controller, like the frq driven controller BBB describes, to have a variable freq oscillator and an amplifier, then a means of clipping the wave. Digital PWM sounds comparatively simpler.


Well a freq drive is rather different then PWM. PWM (aka: Duty Cycle) is really more for a DC motor. Turn it on and off for a percentage of the freq. Freq remains constant, but the duration of 'ON' varies. A freq drive adjusts the actual freq. Keeping power on full time at full current.



> What's happening in the triac based dimmers and MSCs I've looked at is they're using a full wave bridge to make pulsed DC, then are chopping off part of the waveform by altering at what part of the waveform the triac begins to conduct so to reduce the duty cycle rather than generating a signal and amplifying it to drive the load.


Based on zero-cross as the clock for the freq.
But once its rectified its no longer a sine wave, but a square wave. (ok, a poor/noisy one with a lot of ripple) And a PWM style/system.

PWM is a fixed freq and adjusting the duty cycle.


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## HATCH (Sep 29, 2008)

Hey AL B.,,Glad Someone Stepped In With Some Great Info On The AP.CH.Lic.,,Thank's For The Info!!

Hey Just Wanted To Show You A Up-Date On What The Aeroponic, & Using No Media, Just The 2" Basket's & Neoprene, Organic Nut.'s Here They Are At 41 Day's Flowering...I Fixed The "Claw", Just By Feeding Them More, I Rased The PPM To 2400PPM, The PH Is Been Around 6.2 To 6.5PH.

Well, What You Think???


----------



## hydrogrower420 (Sep 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 30C is correct. You're not making roast clone (however tasty that may be. ) We're looking for 'warm' not 'hot'!
> 
> Yes, use the tray that came with it. That will protect the heat mat from damage and dirt.


 lol...quick question i just germed my seeds and when they showed taproots i put them in some rockwool when should i turn on my lights when they have sprouted threw the rockwool?or should i turn them on now?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 29, 2008)

Young seedlings should be getting fluoro light, 18+h/day, space the lights about 200mm off the plants until they have their second set of true leaves, then drop the fluoro to 100mm.


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## HATCH (Sep 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> They look great!


Thank You Kindly Sir!!!~~~& For Your Time!!,,You Help Alot Of People!!! We Thank You!!!


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## flipsidesw (Sep 30, 2008)

Sup AL.! How's it goin man?

Have you ever tried the Lucas formula? Seems like a pretty easy formula. 

U find that using synthetic nutrients doesnt affect the taste? IMO organic growers just like to taste that dirt taste. Im not sold on the organic theme. Have u ever had organic grown bananas? Not very tasty and they are puny looking.. I mean most supermarket food isnt organicly grown. Can i have ur .02 on organic vs synthetics?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 30, 2008)

flipsidesw said:


> Sup AL.! How's it goin man?


Just another shitty day in paradise. 



> Have you ever tried the Lucas formula? Seems like a pretty easy formula.


What's the Lucas formula?



> Can i have ur .02 on organic vs synthetics?


First, inorganic nutrients are not synthetic. They're essentially composed of the stuff that organics break down into. Organic nutrients must first break down into elementals before the plant can use them so there technically can be no difference.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 30, 2008)

Just to let everyone know, it's harvesting time AGAIN (bless/curse/bless/curse/bless/curse/bless/curse), so I'm gonna be scarce for several days.


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## HATCH (Sep 30, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Just to let everyone know, it's harvesting time AGAIN (bless/curse/bless/curse/bless/curse/bless/curse), so I'm gonna be scarce for several days.


 
Well, Happy Harvesting & Smoking!!!,,You Going To Show Use Some Pic's????


----------



## Old in the Way (Sep 30, 2008)

Well i ought to copy this to you if you will be in the wind for a bit......

Asking for your best recollection on things since i believe you said it was 6-8yrs ago that you were aerocloning.............


So i have the aerocloner full and a couple trays of clones on the heat mat.

They all look good on the surface but when i took the lid off the aerocloner to check ph the stems have atrophied (sp?) a little and are browning up---is this normal? Should i be concerned? Will they root despite the stem size contracting a bit and browning?? Is this an indication of rot setting in?? Water is at 5.8ph with h202 at 1.5ml/L Temps are 82-86 in the clone zone RH 70++% Water Temps are running a constant with ambient temps, sometimes a degree more. Could the water temps be to high?? 


Any input you may have would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks


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## flipsidesw (Sep 30, 2008)

Lucas Formula - Grasscity.com Forums

I thought it would be cool to learn how to use one of the cheapeast and easy to come by nutrients.. I read some where that canna and gh are very similiar. 

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm

If ya got a sec ^^^ was pretty interesting.. 

Have you ever heard of " Fog and Flow"?


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## Jtoth3ustin (Sep 30, 2008)

my friend just bought a fogger recently. supposed to be better than aero i heard.. Al. wus goin on man. was wondering whats your opinion on hesi. heard good things but not about superthrive. somebody said it was pointless... [email protected]


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 1, 2008)

HATCH said:


> Well, Happy Harvesting & Smoking!!!,,You Going To Show Use Some Pic's????


 yeah, soon as I get done being cross-eyed... gotta see about some reading/work glasses, being of advanced age, myself... 



Old in the Way said:


> Well i ought to copy this to you if you will be in the wind for a bit......
> 
> Asking for your best recollection on things since i believe you said it was 6-8yrs ago that you were aerocloning.............


 Yes, it's been a while.



> So i have the aerocloner full and a couple trays of clones on the heat mat.


 ok



> They all look good on the surface but when i took the lid off the aerocloner to check ph the stems have atrophied (sp?) a little and are browning up---is this normal?


 no.



> Should i be concerned?


 yes. 



> Will they root despite the stem size contracting a bit and browning??


 Probably, but higher up the stem, above the rot.



> Is this an indication of rot setting in??


 yep!



> Water is at 5.8ph with h202 at 1.5ml/L Temps are 82-86 in the clone zone RH 70++% Water Temps are running a constant with ambient temps, sometimes a degree more. Could the water temps be to high??


 Yes, could be a bit warm. Also, are the stem tips in the water? Shouldn't be. Is there water dripping off the stems? If so, run the air pump on a timer perhaps 5mins every 30. 



flipsidesw said:


> I read some where that canna and gh are very similiar.


Not similar enough to do this. GH is a 3 part nutrient, Canna is 2 part. 3 part nutes drive me mad. I put 450ml each "A" and "B" in each 125L tank every 2 weeks. That's the sum total of yutzing around with nutes in my op. 



> Have you ever heard of " Fog and Flow"?


Nope. I played with an ultrasonic fogger from a pet shop a few years back, was a bit disappointed with it. It gacked up with nute salts rather quickly. I've seen some foggers recently that seem designed for horticultural use. These have a Teflon coated piezoelectric diaphragm which may solve this problem. 



Jtoth3ustin said:


> heard good things but not about superthrive. somebody said it was pointless... [email protected]


I've used Superthrive in the past. It is one of the few magic sauces that has some sorta-science behind it. The main ingredient appears to be vitamin B, which does seem to have some use as a growth enhancer. Whatever else is in the stuff is open to conjecture. However, at the dosage rates Superthrive suggest (1 drop/gallon), it's hard to believe that it would be effective as a vit B supplement. I never noticed enough benefit from it to pay the truly nutty prices asked for the goo. If you want a vit B supp, there's probably cheaper competing products around.


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## Sensay (Oct 1, 2008)

First, inorganic nutrients are not synthetic. They're essentially composed of the stuff that organics break down into. Organic nutrients must first break down into elementals before the plant can use them so there technically can be no difference.[/QUOTE]


This is what I've tried to tell people who are die hard organic. The plant does not suck up a big lump of compost, then digest it, no it has to be broken down to basics before hand, such as nitrogen for example. So nitrogen is nitrogen, can you really tell me a plant prefers or can distinguish between N from compost pile, a bottle, or a bats ass. Then after the plant uses this N molecule in its growth, you can taste the difference when you puff. Chems such as insectisides are another story.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 1, 2008)

> Quote:
> Can i have ur .02 on organic vs synthetics?
> First, inorganic nutrients are not synthetic. They're essentially composed of the stuff that organics break down into. Organic nutrients must first break down into elementals before the plant can use them so there technically can be no difference.


I didn't answer that fully, got distracted with real life, sorry about that. 

Organic hydroponic nutes are forever a problem for folks I talk to on here. Organic nutes are generally incompatible with H2O2 as the H2O2 busies itself trying to break down the organic compounds in the nutes rather than attacking pathogens. Pathogen control in organic systems is by introducing competing organisms and use of enzymatic agents to break down dead organic matter. The competing organisms war isn't always won and it's hard to tell if you _*are*_ winning without a microscope. 

Ops running inorganic nutes & H2O2 have clean, clear tanks and it's obvious when something's amiss- and much easier to correct.



Sensay said:


> can you really tell me a plant prefers or can distinguish between N from compost pile, a bottle, or a bats ass. Then after the plant uses this N molecule in its growth, you can taste the difference when you puff. Chems such as insectisides are another story.


zackly.


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## davedub69 (Oct 1, 2008)

Al! THANKS again for all the GREAT, no bullshit information you give to us! I've read every page in Get a Harvest Every 2 Weeks and every page of this thread. I have two questions that i wanted to run by you. First, dealing with cooltubes, do u think there would be an advantage to running seperate fan and exhaust tubes for each cooltube to try to elimate even more heat from the light to possible even bring them closer to the palnts? Second, heat in grows rooms are a mjaor concern but what about cold? What is an acceptable cold temp? Where I am located our winters get a lil nasty with some rather cold temps. sometimes into the 10-20 F. I am askign b/c i plan on building a grow room in a basement and basement temps always seem to be a cooler than rest of house. THANKS again! Btw... may we start calling you the Dr. b/c you got the PHD in the THC!


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## Old in the Way (Oct 1, 2008)

Thanks Al....

Yes there is water dripping off the stems, They are sprayed from the water pump pushing through those little red mist heads--which seems a little violent to me, not airsones/airpump (although it came with an airpump/stone to o2-ate the res) 

I am having trouble finding a digital minute-timer in stock around my part of the world so I have had to order one online--should be here in a couple days.

I have been lowering the water temps in the aerocloner slowly to try and get them down to 26-28*C and keep them there. The offspring on the heat mat look good so I don't feel it was gardener error on the ones in the EZ Cloner, same cut process, same hormone, etc...I'll keep you posted

Thanks again, happy harvesting/manicuring, lol---at least its only a couple lbs huh..may your scissors stay sharp and your buds be fat.

-OitW


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## Lobo69 (Oct 1, 2008)

Hey.
Just wondering how you control the temp in your bud dryer...I can't seem to get an accurate temp control of my soldering iron with the incandescent dimmer...it just goes from off to very hot in the middle of rotation...any help would be appreciated...thanks.
Also how big is your heatsink?


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## newportbeach949 (Oct 1, 2008)

updated picture if you remember me from a couple weeks ago.

middle of week 5 -starting the cha chinggg 

i think i'm likeing this hydro thing better than my soil grows, alot easier to control everbody and the same time. 

again thanks for helpin me out in the begining
edit* i'm expecting about .5 per watt with my two 400's , next cycle i'm building the room a tad bigger to have another table like this with some light moving rails , i would then think .5 - 1.0 may be possible


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## HAZEOHOLIC (Oct 1, 2008)

hello Al

Thanks for all the advise you given me, have one moe I would like to know what if any enviroment controllers you use and co2 controllers also.
I had to make 2 closets for my grow each closets has 2 trays I know I have to get 2 co2 inmjection controllers but to read PH EC TDS I need 2 also? thanks for the info Al


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## DeweyKox (Oct 1, 2008)

Question, If I order the ...

High Tech Garden Supply

What do I mount all the components too? Wood or do I need something that can with stand some heat. Any pics of how other people mount and place these components in?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 1, 2008)

davedub69 said:


> Al! THANKS again for all the GREAT, no bullshit information you give to us!


 no wucking furries, mate. 


> I've read every page in Get a Harvest Every 2 Weeks and every page of this thread.


 A pretty tough slog, but worth it.


> I have two questions that i wanted to run by you. First, dealing with cooltubes, do u think there would be an advantage to running seperate fan and exhaust tubes for each cooltube to try to elimate even more heat from the light to possible even bring them closer to the palnts?


 Each 1000HPS causes about a 6C rise in the temp of the air going through the tube. So, if you have 20C intake air, the air exiting the first cooltube will be 26c, then 32C as it exits the second cooltube. I don't think it would make much difference if you have just two cooltubes in one daisy chain. It's when you add a third one inline that the air temp in the cooltube is high enough that it begins to significantly warm the glass in cooltube #3 and the ducting downline from that tube. When the ducting & glass gets warm, that heat will begin to convect through the duct and into the growroom airmass, defeating the purpose of having cooltubes. It certainly will not hurt to have a blower and separate ducting for each cooltube though.


> Second, heat in grows rooms are a mjaor concern but what about cold? What is an acceptable cold temp?


 Cannabis plants go dormant below about 16C.


> I am askign b/c i plan on building a grow room in a basement and basement temps always seem to be a cooler than rest of house.


About 1m below the surface, the earth is a constant 15-16C. This means that your basement will be cooler than ambient air temp in the summer but will be significantly _warmer_ than ambient in the winter. Your basement will probably be 14-16C in winter, depending upon how well insulated any part of it which is above 1m below the surface happens to be. You will probably find that your lighting alone is enough to raise your room temp to 25C in winter. If you use cooltubes, you may want to organise a wye pipe on the outlet end of the cooltube, with one outlet of the wye going out of the room and one opening into the grow, allowing warm air from the lighting to remain in the op. You simply block one outlet depending on the time of year.



Old in the Way said:


> Yes there is water dripping off the stems, They are sprayed from the water pump pushing through those little red mist heads--which seems a little violent to me, not airsones/airpump (although it came with an airpump/stone to o2-ate the res)


 My aerocloner was a deep tub, about 400mm deep with about 50mm of water in the bottom. An airstone in the water created the mist. I ran the air pump for 5 mins every 30, could have been every hour. If you have sprayers constantly wetting your stems, they will rot. Small secret- it does not take exposing stems to liquid water to get root nodes, only very high humidity. 



> I am having trouble finding a digital minute-timer in stock around my part of the world so I have had to order one online--should be here in a couple days.


 Wow, I can't imagine where one would have to live to not be able to easily source a digital timer. Sorry for your grief, but you need some digital timers



Lobo69 said:


> Hey.
> Just wondering how you control the temp in your bud dryer...


With a thermostat. I use a modified Jaycar QT7200. I have removed the thermistor (temp sensor) from the thermostat and added a length of 2-conductor wire so the thermistor can be located in the warm airstream flowing into the dryer. 








_note little blue thermistor located in airstream_

I have more detailed images showing how to disassemble & mod the QT7200 if you need them. 



> I can't seem to get an accurate temp control of my soldering iron with the incandescent dimmer...it just goes from off to very hot in the middle of rotation...any help would be appreciated...thanks.


 Yep, you need a thermostat switching the soldering iron heating element on and off. 



> Also how big is your heatsink?


 It is 150mm long x 75mm wide x 50mm thick. Fins run along the 150mm axis. 



newportbeach949 said:


> updated picture if you remember me from a couple weeks ago.


Hi again. 



> i think i'm likeing this hydro thing better than my soil grows, alot easier to control everbody and the same time.


 It's an awful lot easier than some would have you believe. 



> again thanks for helpin me out in the begining


no worries 


> edit* i'm expecting about .5 per watt with my two 400's , next cycle i'm building the room a tad bigger to have another table like this with some light moving rails , i would then think .5 - 1.0 may be possible


 .5g/W is a reasonable expectation for a new grower in SoG. 

I'd skip the light mover. If the area you are lighting is too large for the lighting you have, add more or bigger lights. The problem with light movers is that there's no light over one end of the grow while the mover has the lamp on the other end. You have to consider a new figure- lux-hours, or lumens per sq metre per hour, to account for the time that the mover has the lamp on the other end of the grow. Also, linear light movers do not distribute light evenly; the plants in the middle of the traverse get more lux-hours than the plants on the ends of the travel. 



HAZEOHOLIC said:


> I would like to know what if any enviroment controllers you use and co2 controllers also.


I don't use CO2 and only use thermostats to control the intake & exhaust blowers.



> I had to make 2 closets for my grow each closets has 2 trays I know I have to get 2 co2 injection controllers but to read PH EC TDS I need 2 also?


No, you really only need one EC meter and one pH meter to test your solutions. 



DeweyKox said:


> Question, If I order the ...
> 
> High Tech Garden Supply
> 
> What do I mount all the components too? Wood or do I need something that can with stand some heat. Any pics of how other people mount and place these components in?


A piece of plywood will do fine. I buy already assembled ballasts, which are contained in a steel box, so I have not had to gin one up as such- so sorry, no pix. Component placement is not critical.


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## Lobo69 (Oct 1, 2008)

Thanks for the reply.
Okay...so if the soldering iron is controlled by the thermostat, then what purpose does the dimmer serve? I think I'm missing something here...


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## greenstar (Oct 1, 2008)

Al, I'm glad they opened the thread back up. After seeing your thread and after 10 years from doing this (haven't grown in 10 years) I decided to get back in the game. 10 years ago I did bubblers in closets, and well now I'm all growns up.  

Here are my questions to you if you would be so kind. I'm going to do my best to imitate your setup, but 1/2 sized. 1 1000 watt lamp. Here is what I have and I'm looking for your advice. 

I have a room, it's 11' X 11' X 8'. In that room is a closet that is 4.2' X 2.2' X 8'. The room has central air/heat (one duct).
I read in one of your posts that if you had the room you'd use a grow tent so I plan on buying a 4' X 8' X 7' tent for flowering. I'll mimic your setup with two 3' X 3' trays, put the light over the middle, fytocell, flood and drain, pretty much going to follow your lead. 

For vegetation it'll be just moms. If I follow your deal I'm guessing I'd need 3-4 moms. I have a leftover 150HPS, will this be enough light for them harvesting 1 tray per month? And will a 2' X 2' flood/drain setup work for those 4? Vegetation will be in a hut also, unless I try to use the closet I referred to above. Do I need intake/exhaust for this or can I let it be with just a small fan or two in the tent?

My next question is since I have aircon/heat going to that room, do I need to worry about venting the room out? If I need to I could get intake/exhaust fans and run some ducting to center of the ceiling and pull out the ceiling fan I have there. I just don't know if it'll be needed.

I can use tents.... one for each veg and flower or use the closet for veg. I'm not going to jack with CO2. My main questions are if a 2' X 2' will be enough room for 4 moms, and how much light they'll need if I plan on harvesting one tray per month. My other main concern is if I need to hook up intake and exhaust fans to the tent, and whether I need to run ducting to the ceiling, to the attic, if I have aircon/heat going to that room. 

Thanks for all your hard work man. You've made it easy for me to get back into this. I've read for months as I couldn't figure out which of these newer methods to use (Drip, SOG, SCROG, on and on). I'll be using fytocell, all the same shit man, you've made it easy. Mucho props. The first night I started reading the original thread, I think I spent 8 hours straight reading. You think like me, why make shit more difficult than it needs to be. Occam's Razor.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 1, 2008)

Lobo69 said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> Okay...so if the soldering iron is controlled by the thermostat, then what purpose does the dimmer serve? I think I'm missing something here...


 The circuit was designed initially for use with resistors which were really a bit too small in value for the line voltage vs. their power dissipation. The dimmer was used to limit the current to those resistors to keep dissipation at 25w per resistor. I later changed the R values and increased the number of them to 6. I again shot the R values a bit low, so that I could increase the dissipation through each resistor above the 25W rating if the heat shifted off them by the heat sink allowed it. 

Use of a soldering iron as the heating element was really not my intention when I designed the circuit, but the dimmer is not entirely superfluous when using one as a heating element. 

If building the dryer _without_ a thermostat, the dimmer is used as a rough means of adjusting the temperature of the warm airstream. 

If building the dryer _with_ a thermostat, the dimmer will slow the speed at which the iron element heats up and will limit its top temperature. Remember that the iron element by itself in free air is capable of reaching temps of 420C (800F) in just a few minutes. Yes, if you have fixed the soldering iron element to a heatsink, that top temp will be limited, but with a dimmer inline with the thermostat, the ramp-up rate is slowed and top temp limited so the thermostat does not click on & off frequently. 



greenstar said:


> I have a room, it's 11' X 11' X 8'. In that room is a closet that is 4.2' X 2.2' X 8'. The room has central air/heat (one duct).


No return duct?



> I read in one of your posts that if you had the room you'd use a grow tent so I plan on buying a 4' X 8' X 7' tent for flowering.


You might check the cost of a pre-made tent against the cost of a roll of pandafilm and some 2x4 timbers. 



> Do I need intake/exhaust for this or can I let it be with just a small fan or two in the tent?


All grows need throughflow ventilation, unless you have an aircon unit & CO2 tank devoted to that space. CO2 depleted air must be replaced. Circ fans within the space are necessary but fans do not cool air- they make it warmer by way of heat emitted from their motors. Circ fans also do not replenish CO2 nor remove excess humidity. 


> My next question is since I have aircon/heat going to that room, do I need to worry about venting the room out? If I need to I could get intake/exhaust fans and run some ducting to center of the ceiling and pull out the ceiling fan I have there. I just don't know if it'll be needed.


If there's an intake, there must be an exhaust or nothing happens. A grow tent in the middle of a room can intake air from the room and dump it back in the room, but then you have to see about shifting that air out of the room hosting the tent. If this room has a duct from the central aircon system, there's usually a return duct to allow recirculation of the air through the aircon system. That will be sufficient to remove heat and humidity from the air in the room hosting the tent, The airmass of the rest of the dwelling should be sufficient to supply CO2 for a small grow, but the window in the room with the op should be left cracked open an inch or so to be sure. 



> My main questions are if a 2' X 2' will be enough room for 4 moms, and how much light they'll need if I plan on harvesting one tray per month.


Yes, 2x2 will be fine, your spare 150HPS will also be well suited to raising the mums. It'll need sufficient ventilation, though. Mums transpire a lot of moisture into the air and the lighting needs to run 18+h/day, so ventilation will need to be able to cope. 



> Thanks for all your hard work man.


no worries.


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## greenstar (Oct 1, 2008)

The return air vent is located just outside the room and it's quite large. There are 2 big return vents in the dwelling around the centers. For stealth, cracking the window open isn't a good idea. 

So I need intake and exhaust fans for the tents *veg and flower*?? With central air/heat, do I need to run ducting from the light to the attic for venting purposes?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 1, 2008)

greenstar said:


> The return air vent is located just outside the room and it's quite large.


So, the room housing the tent has a feeder duct from the central air but no return to the central unit other than through an open door? If this is the case, when you close the room's door, you may note that the flow rate from the inbound duct drops dramatically. 



> There are 2 big return vents in the dwelling around the centers.


I don't quite understand what you mean. 



> For stealth, cracking the window open isn't a good idea.


Well, you need to remove the CO2 depleted air from the dwelling and introduce more CO2 somehow. Exhausting air into the attic might be a good way to do this as the air you remove will be replaced by atmospheric pressure.



> So I need intake and exhaust fans for the tents *veg and flower*??


I think that's what I said. At very least, you need an exhaust blower and an intake port large enough (about 2x the dia of the exhaust) so as to not restrict the flow through the exhaust blower. If you're not using cooltubes, choose an exhaust blower that moves about 1cfm for every cubic foot of room airmass ie 200cu ft closet, 200CFM blower. 



> With central air/heat, do I need to run ducting from the light to the attic for venting purposes?


If you can, it'd save you some dough on electricity as the aircon would not be responsible for shifting the heat outside. It'd also force CO2 laden air to be drawn into the dwelling and subsequently the room.


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 2, 2008)

Al, 

Alot of houses in the US do not have dedicated air returns for each room in the house. They have the supply register in the room and rely on the door to be cut 1-2" higher than the floor to be used as the air return.

Then a central air return is located in 1 or two main locations in the house to allow the air to be drawn back to the HVAC unit.

FYI


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 2, 2008)

dang. Well, if greenstar can put in an exhaust that vents into the attic, he'll get the aircon into the space via the feed duct and will get fresh CO2 drawn into the grow, too, as the volume of air that the exhaust removes will enter the structure via air leaks.

Without a decent sized return (i.e. door closed and 1-2" gap at floor level) and with no vent to the attic, I have some concerns about temp control.


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## wyteberrywidow (Oct 2, 2008)

hey Al... I know this is kind of a crzy question but whats the difference between a exhaust fan/blower and a inlinefan?? if both can be used for exhausting a growroom and cooling a cooltube/air cooled reflector..


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 2, 2008)

The 'inline fan' or 'duct fan' commonly referred to by US posters is an inexpensive, low quality axial fan mounted in a section of galvanised duct, readily available at hardware stores. 






4" - 80CFM






6", 160cfm

These will work for small grows but they don't move the most air per watt. Ordinary plain bearing motors, inefficient impeller blades with sloppy blade to housing tolerances are to blame. Usually rated about 80-160CFM. 

The next step up are good quality brushless AC fans with duct flanges for inline mounting.







Blowers like this have efficient impellers, ball bearings and 40-60W motors, usually good for about 200-300CFM in 150mm (6") dia.

If you need to move some _*serious *_air or run a carbon filter, centrifugal blowers are the go. 







This is a Spectrum Customline C250H, 250mm centrifugal blower. 480W motor, about 900CFM. Well suited for carbon filters. Note it only has a duct flange on the outlet end. Blowers like these are mounted within the grow room or nose through the wall/ceiling to drive an exhaust duct line.


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## wyteberrywidow (Oct 2, 2008)

I was wondering if the 6 inch ductfan can cool a 400watt hps in a cooltube.. Or do i need a centrifungal fan for the cooltube??I plan on getting a 4 inch centrifungal fan with a filter for $119.. do you think i should put the 4inch fan on my reflector or leave the 6inch duct fan???


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 2, 2008)

wyteberrywidow said:


> I was wondering if the 6 inch ductfan can cool a 400watt hps in a cooltube.. Or do i need a centrifungal fan for the cooltube??I plan on getting a 4 inch centrifungal fan with a filter for $119.. do you think i should put the 4inch fan on my reflector or leave the 6inch duct fan???


The 6 inch duct fan can provide more than enough cooling for your cooltube if it is not impeded by alot of 90 degree turns, a filter, etc...

Use the 4 inch centrifugal with the filter for your filtration and exhaust air system and use the 6" duct fan to run air through that is not part of the grow.


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## wyteberrywidow (Oct 2, 2008)

alright thanks man..i knew those fans were good for something..ill always have time to upgrade later..


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## Lobo69 (Oct 2, 2008)

Thanks...so the dimmer can not adjust the high end temp of the soldering iron enough to bring it low enough for the dryer? Also, What's the MSC in that wiring diagram?
Thanks again
Lobo


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## Lobo69 (Oct 2, 2008)

Oh yeah, one more thing...My dimmer doesn't seem to adjust the temp at all. I've been moving it very small increments, but it just seems to turn on full power about halfway through the rotation? Am I wiring it wrong maybe?


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## Dugout (Oct 2, 2008)

High Al, I am on page 5 of this thread but I have one question for now. You know me your royal pain in the ass again. I was reading what you had to say about fytocell and the RW tightly in the bottom. I have 4" RW cubes that can't be used with what I have now so can I break it up and use it in the bottom of the pots with Fyto and what is the best way to break it down to put it in can I just cut it in to small pieces to fit in bottom of pot? Also what do you use to plant germinated seed in? Anyway thanks again bro and burn one for me Peace and out the Ole Hippy DUGOUT


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## BigBudBalls (Oct 2, 2008)

Hi Al,

I only have a couple days home then out for a couple weeks.

I'm setting up a flood/drain system (just veggies for first run/learning)
100% hydroton. Seeds were started in areogarden (c'mon, it isn't that bad. Good for clones, experiments, starting seeds, and kitchen herbs, etc.)

But its basically 40 x 65 x 12cm tray on top a tupperware bin and and pump and air pump (air running 24/7).

My Q's are:

What should be the flood level? I have it at about 9cm. (seemed about right)

How often should I cycle the pump? (I remember you said to run it just long enough to hit the top of the drain tube. I have a .01 minute resolution that I ca adjust from the road.) It will be on a 18/6 light sched.

Does plant and/or root ball size have any effect on watering times/schedules?

thanks.
(I'd do a search/re-read, but time is tight. Gotta hit the accountant, make calls to customers, pack, chores, etc. Gotta fly out Sunday noon)


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## greenstar (Oct 2, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> dang. Well, if greenstar can put in an exhaust that vents into the attic, he'll get the aircon into the space via the feed duct and will get fresh CO2 drawn into the grow, too, as the volume of air that the exhaust removes will enter the structure via air leaks.
> 
> Without a decent sized return (i.e. door closed and 1-2" gap at floor level) and with no vent to the attic, I have some concerns about temp control.


Yeah NLXSK1 is dead on about our homes in the US. I have 2 return vents that are very large. One of them is located just outside the door to my grow op. 

Ok Al B, almost got this sorted. I'll be running 2 tents, one for moms, and one for flowering. Should I:

A. Run ducting from both tents to the attic (don't know how I'd do that at all, 1 ducting cool, but 2?) or

B. Get a bathroom type fan (the kind that pulls air out of the room, like when you drop science in there) and install it in the middle of the room,? I thought about this prior. I have a ceiling fan in the middle of the room. If I replace that with an exhaust type fan sucking air out, I could put it on a timer, perhaps.

Help! I'm almost done with design so I can move forward 

Thanks for your time Al. I think you understand my setup so I'm just trying to solve these last issues then it's time to start spending $.


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## SilkShaker14 (Oct 2, 2008)

my rickwool cubes appear to be very dry in my DWC setup......i have not seen any nute burn yet but i se rockwool and hydroton pebbles have white residue ( i am assuming salt from nutes) and look very dry what should i do


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## GodsGift (Oct 3, 2008)

Hey al, I have read all the way through harvest every 2 weeks and a few other 100+ pagers of yours. Love your logic, Keep on keepin on man.

So, I have a few spare 1000w hps/mh ballasts and hps bulbs. A freind of mine wants to use them but he knows that his system could only support 1200 more watts. Can i somehow dimm the 1000w Ballasts to 600w each? as to not blow the fuse? I mean i have heard that logn extenstion cords cause lights to dim so im guessing its POSSIBLE, Any light you want to shed on the subject? (hehe ... light... to shed... get it... 

Also i see you argue against light movers, and i agree, its strange to have an op that has a light that literally leaves half the op dark for 1/2 the time, but what about shortening the length it goes so that the light is just less intense at one side? 

Also how bad is it to have some dead roots in the hydraton? how thoroughly should it be cleaned in between uses?


What mediums in an :ebb n flow /grow system using buckets would you reccomend using OTHER than hydraton or MIXING with hydraton? I Really dont like that the roots cant grow THROUGH the rocks, i like that with those mini grow cubes, soil, rockwool, and many other mediums, it can just grown right through it if the root wants to.


Also GH Hydro 3 Part is inorganic correct? meaning NO h202? 

Thanks in advance for your answers


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## HAZEOHOLIC (Oct 3, 2008)

Hello Al
I wanted to know my closet is 77" H X 60" W X 24" D I bought a 600 watt cool tube like you said would like to know if this fan would work to cool it down. My intenstions are to use this fan for the cool tube only. Panasonic Fans - WhisperLine FV-40NLF1 Bathroom Exhaust In-Line Fan (440 CFM 2.1 sones) [FV-40NLF1] - $190.05 : Wave Plumbing, Luxury Kitchen, Bathroom & Bar Vessel Sinks, Copper Sinks, Faucets Also my smaller closet is 77" H X 24" W X 24" D, To haouse mother plants I wanted to use the same inline fan as the link but in a 240 CFM both those panasonic fans are designed for multiple-task ventilation. wanted to vent mums room and flower room with this fan Panasonic Fans - WhisperLine FV-20NLF1 Bathroom Exhaust In-Line Fan (240 CFM 1.4 sones) [FV-20NLF1] - $137.31 : Wave Plumbing, Luxury Kitchen, Bathroom & Bar Vessel Sinks, Copper Sinks, Faucets
Also for exhuast fan I need two for both closets? to a Y fitting and into the filter is this correct or am I mistaken. if you have a diagram of how to set this up would really appricate. thanks al


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 3, 2008)

HAZEOHOLIC said:


> My intenstions are to use this fan for the cool tube only. Panasonic Fans - (440 CFM 2.1 sones)$190.05


Cooltubes are 150mm dia, this blower is 8" (200mm)- and way too exxy. You don't really need that much blower for a cooltube, look for a 150mm, ~200CFM unit. I get them for about $35-40. 



> Also my smaller closet is 77" H X 24" W X 24" D, To haouse mother plants I wanted to use the same inline fan as the link but in a 240 CFM both those panasonic fans are designed for multiple-task ventilation. wanted to vent mums room and flower room with this fan Panasonic Fans - (240 CFM)


These Panasonic fans are far too expensive. Any fan can vent multiple spaces, but the inlet restriction to both spaces must be identical or one area will be well ventilated while one will not be. Better to use an individual exhaust blower for each. 



> Also for exhuast fan I need two for both closets? to a Y fitting and into the filter is this correct or am I mistaken. if you have a diagram of how to set this up would really appricate.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 3, 2008)

wyteberrywidow said:


> I was wondering if the 6 inch ductfan can cool a 400watt hps in a cooltube..


should be fine. 


> Or do i need a centrifungal fan for the cooltube??


nope, you only need a centrif for the room exhaust blower, as it will be driving a carbon filter in your setup. The cooltube should have an independent ducting system, keeping grow room airmass separate from the cooltube air, so it does not need any filtering. 

 



> I plan on getting a 4 inch centrifungal fan with a filter for $119.. do you think i should put the 4inch fan on my reflector or leave the 6inch duct fan???


 A 4" blower is really quite small. Whether it is sufficient or not depends on the volume of your room and whether or not you are running cooltubes. With cooltubes, the exhaust blower can move 1/3 of the room air volume per minute, i.e. a 300cu ft room gets a 100CFM exhaust.



Lobo69 said:


> Thanks...so the dimmer can not adjust the high end temp of the soldering iron enough to bring it low enough for the dryer?


 It should be able to control the top temp just fine, especially if the soldering iron element is well thermally connected to your heatsink. 



> Also, What's the MSC in that wiring diagram?


 It's a fan motor speed controller. It's used to slow the fans down to make them a bit quieter (you don't need a wind tunnel to dry buds); also, in winter, slowing down the fans allows the air temp to come up to 29C even when the intake air is very cool (10-12C). It's optional, but you may find you'd like to have the ability to slow the fans down.



Lobo69 said:


> Oh yeah, one more thing...My dimmer doesn't seem to adjust the temp at all. I've been moving it very small increments, but it just seems to turn on full power about halfway through the rotation? Am I wiring it wrong maybe?


 It should be in series with the LINE lead. 

Try connecting the dimmer to a 25W incandescent light bulb. Turn up the dimmer and see what happens to the light. Many cheap dimmers don't turn on the voltage until you turn the control about halfway, but then you can dial it down.



Dugout said:


> what is the best way to break it down to put it in can I just cut it in to small pieces to fit in bottom of pot?


I'd just tear the things apart by hand and pack the stuff in the pot bottoms. 


> Also what do you use to plant germinated seed in?


 40mm RW cubes, dealt with in much the same way as I handle clones. 



BigBudBalls said:


> What should be the flood level? I have it at about 9cm. (seemed about right)


 Should be like this:

 

Nest the cube in the pellets so the cube bottoms are 1/2" above the overflow level. 



> How often should I cycle the pump? (I remember you said to run it just long enough to hit the top of the drain tube.


 5x/lights-on for small plants. Large plants can be flooded up to every 2h beginning at lights-on, avoiding watering in the last 2h of lights-on unles the plants would otherwise wilt without being flooded. 



> Does plant and/or root ball size have any effect on watering times/schedules?


 Yep, larger plants need to be flooded more often. 



greenstar said:


> Should I:
> 
> A. Run ducting from both tents to the attic (don't know how I'd do that at all, 1 ducting cool, but 2?) or
> 
> B. Get a bathroom type fan (the kind that pulls air out of the room, like when you drop science in there) and install it in the middle of the room,? I thought about this prior. I have a ceiling fan in the middle of the room. If I replace that with an exhaust type fan sucking air out, I could put it on a timer, perhaps.


 Either will work, but directly ducting air out of the tents into the attic will work better. 



SilkShaker14 said:


> my rickwool cubes appear to be very dry in my DWC setup......i have not seen any nute burn yet but i se rockwool and hydroton pebbles have white residue ( i am assuming salt from nutes) and look very dry what should i do


 Once the roots have escaped your netpots and are being watered in the DWC, it doesn't matter what happens to the RW cube. It is there only for supporting the plant before it is put into the pellets and automated watering system. Doesn't matter what happens to media on the tops of the netpots. If the plants are being watered, it's all good.



GodsGift said:


> No. HID lighting can not be run on dimmers.
> 
> I mean i have heard that logn extenstion cords cause lights to dim so im guessing its POSSIBLE, Any light you want to shed on the subject? (hehe ... light... to shed... get it...
> 
> ...


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## daddychrisg (Oct 3, 2008)

*permalink*
*Thanks Al....

Yes there is water dripping off the stems, They are sprayed from the water pump pushing through those little red mist heads--which seems a little violent to me, not airsones/airpump (although it came with an airpump/stone to o2-ate the res) 

I am having trouble finding a digital minute-timer in stock around my part of the world so I have had to order one online--should be here in a couple days.

I have been lowering the water temps in the aerocloner slowly to try and get them down to 26-28*C and keep them there. The offspring on the heat mat look good so I don't feel it was gardener error on the ones in the EZ Cloner, same cut process, same hormone, etc...I'll keep you posted

Thanks again, happy harvesting/manicuring, lol---at least its only a couple lbs huh..may your scissors stay sharp and your buds be fat.

*
I gave up on my Ez cloner, seriously, can't stand the thought of the thing! I would typically get root rot, even with H2O2, then during transplant they would always get shocked, and so I went back to basics....Anyone want to purchase a few Ez Cloners? LOL! I wish I could give you great suggestions but I am affraid I didn't learn how to perfect the system, but on the other hand Al and I can give you the basics on rooting in a plug!


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## ldnsharkkid (Oct 3, 2008)

Hi Al, im a new member on the site but ive already extensively read a lot of ur threads and u are clearly a well-educated grower, so if you dont mind i might be asking for some advice from time to time,i have just started my first grow using flood tables in a XXL Budbox but when i move out in 2 months it will be done on a bigger scale,a bit like urs, so any help would be appreciated, anyways, thanks for all the help uve unknowingly given me already


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 3, 2008)

daddychrisg said:


> I would typically get root rot, even with H2O2, then during transplant they would always get shocked, and so I went back to basics.


I had similar results with stem tip rot in aerocloners, but didn't usually have transplant shock probs. It's also the reason I went back to RW cubes.


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## Old in the Way (Oct 3, 2008)

> The offspring on the heat mat look good so I don't feel it was gardener error on the ones in the EZ Cloner, same cut process, same hormone, etc...I'll keep you posted


Thanks for the offer....as you can see my old-school cuttings "a la Al B Fuct" are performing well. May get a 100% strike rate but only time will tell.


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## daddychrisg (Oct 3, 2008)

*I had similar results with stem tip rot in aerocloners, but didn't usually have transplant shock probs. It's also the reason I went back to RW cubes.

*_If I was to compare the growth of a week old transplant from a Aero, to a week old plant grown in a plug, the plug wins hands down. So when I say "shock" what I am referring to is how much quicker a rooted clone in a plug will adapt to its new medium. So I would say the shock is less for a plant in a plug, maybe I am doing something not quite right with the Aero, but I don't need to! Basic is better for me..Sticking with the old ways on this one...._


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 4, 2008)

dcg, if you want to cite text and have it appear in a QUOTE box, either use the REPLY WITH QUOTE (




) button *or* copy/paste the text you want to cite and highlight the text and click the QUOTE (




) button.


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## CustomHydro (Oct 4, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> dcg, if you want to cite text and have it appear in a QUOTE box, either use the REPLY WITH QUOTE (
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just learned how to use the




button... I was always wondering why u would qoute peoples text and it wouldn't say their name by it...
Hey Al, I know it's probably been awhile since u germinated a seed, but what method do u use, and what temp do u think is best. Lately certain strains just won't pop for me, but then I get 100% on others. I would say it is a seed problem but I have only had luck with 2 strains out of the last 5 or 6... Between seized orders and seeds not taking, I'm out quite a bit of cash...


----------



## holmes (Oct 4, 2008)

good morning al , what is your take on the liquid lumens product, the reflector that gets cooled off by passing water through it


----------



## holmes (Oct 4, 2008)

sorry bout the double post, it just occured to me to also ask you what you think of House and Garden nutrients, ive read some posts from some really happy customers. Also, do you think its worth it going through the extra trouble of setting up a great aero system? I mean will the results be dramitic compared to a well maintained flood and drain or drip whatever.
gracias muchacho


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## paperfetti (Oct 4, 2008)

Al,
i need to figure out how i can constantly get bud (sog) with what i have.can u help me??
Here are some pics

PS: 3RD PIC...ARE THOSE TEMPS GOOD FOR STARTING WITH SEED OR SHOULD IT BE WARMER?...4TH PIC...IS THIS HOW THE RESEVOIR SUPPOSE TO BE HOOKED WITH 2 BUBBLERS?
I ALSO HAVE DWC BUCKETS THAT I WANNA USE TO HOUSE 2 MOTHER PLANTS IN A HOMEBOX S AND A MISTIC CLONER
IF NEED BE I WILL SETUP 3RD HOMEBOX S JUST FOR MISTIC CLONER OR IS THERE A WAY I CAN HAVE IT IN THE HOMEBOX WITH 2 DWC BUCKETS..I DONT THINK SO,BUT IF U CAN HELP ME FIGURE THIS OUT I WILL SEND YOU SEEDS LOL..I NEED TO MAKE MONEY AS WELL AS NEVER BUY AGAIN


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## Old in the Way (Oct 4, 2008)

Hey Al,

Do you have any input on grounding rods as to how they affect iron content. Someone asked me about it but I don't know what they are refering to unless it is a rod of rusty metal. Which I believe is the least favorable way to offer an iron supplement...please advise.

Thanks,
OitW


----------



## Ghost420 (Oct 4, 2008)

hey al i was wondering if you could help me indenify the problems on my leaves.

i am currently 2 weeks into my grow and i am using grow flora nova and 1/8 suggeusted strength. now i know this problem is not burn however i think it may have to do with the PH

my tap water PH is around 7.0
after nutes are added the ph goes down to about 6.6-6.4
run off 6.0

the medium i am using is promix with a drip to waist system and a digital timer that comes on every 2 days for 1 min.

i know that in tradionational hydro systems people sugguest to have a lower PH then what i am using. however because it is in soil i dont see the need to have it lower.

i know that my pictures aren't very good but along the tips there are tiney white spots. the interesting thing is it is only on one side of the plant. somthing i though of while i was making this post; could these white spots be from my drippers spraying nutes and having the nutes land on the leaves?

well your the master so any help would be great!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 4, 2008)

CustomHydro said:


> Hey Al, I know it's probably been awhile since u germinated a seed, but what method do u use, and what temp do u think is best. Lately certain strains just won't pop for me, but then I get 100% on others. I would say it is a seed problem but I have only had luck with 2 strains out of the last 5 or 6... Between seized orders and seeds not taking, I'm out quite a bit of cash...


 I use a _*way *_low-tech method for sprouting beans. A paper towel, folded in quarters, gets about 3-4ml of water and is stuck in a ziploc bag. Beans are put on the surface of the paper towel and the bag is held partly open. The bag, towel & beans go on the back of my (CRT) computer monitor, which is warm enough to pop the beans without cooking them. Top of a fridge might do equally well but is harder to keep an eye on. 

Sorry for your bad luck with shipping & stuff. 



holmes said:


> good morning al , what is your take on the liquid lumens product, the reflector that gets cooled off by passing water through it


 Not a fan. There's certainly a use for liquid cooled cooltubes, but it's only in the extreme situation where you might have to grow in a space which can't be ventilated well, but trying to grow in an underventilated space has has lots of other problems. 

If a seal on the tube fails and coolant contacts the lamp tube, it'll shatter and short the ballast output, possibly cooking the ballast. One maker of liquid cooled tubes recommends 50gal (189L) of coolant reservoir for each 1000W lamp. That'll take a considerable amount of floorspace! The approximately 1/2" layer of coolant and the necessity for 2 layers of glass tube will cause an unacceptable amount of light loss. 

Air cooled tubes are far preferable due to their simplicity, single layer of glass between lamp & leaf, *much *lower cost and annual maintenance which in sum amounts to dusting them.



holmes said:


> sorry bout the double post, it just occured to me to also ask you what you think of House and Garden nutrients, ive read some posts from some really happy customers.


 Never heard of them before. 


> Also, do you think its worth it going through the extra trouble of setting up a great aero system? I mean will the results be dramitic compared to a well maintained flood and drain or drip whatever.


 No, a watering system is a watering system is a watering system. Yes, aero will get a high amount of dissolved O2 to the roots but you can accomplish much the same with plants in pots of pellets in a flood system which is flooding frequently for short durations. Drip systems suffer from emitter clogs, DWC can kill plants if there's a power or air pump failure lasting more than a couple of hours. 

There's little to no production difference, let alone any _*dramatic *_difference, between a flood with pots of pellets and any other method, but a flood system is much more reliable and requires almost no maintenance. Any performance gains from more complex systems are wiped out with the loss of any plants or an entire crop from a watering system failure. 




paperfetti said:


> Al,
> i need to figure out how i can constantly get bud (sog) with what i have.can u help me??
> Here are some pics


 Sorry, I can't tell what I'm looking at. 

I don't see any HPS lighting. If you're going to SoG, you need HPS in flowering. CFLs won't cut it. 



Old in the Way said:


> Hey Al,
> 
> Do you have any input on grounding rods as to how they affect iron content. Someone asked me about it but I don't know what they are refering to unless it is a rod of rusty metal. Which I believe is the least favorable way to offer an iron supplement...please advise.
> 
> ...


 Adding iron to a grow sounds HIGHLY unnecessary as Fe is usually present in all tapwater in more than sufficient quantity for plants simply due to leaching from underground cast iron mains piping. If a person is trying to solve an iron deficiency, I'd be willing to bet they're chasing the wrong deficiency or have some other problem.

Ground rods are usually copper plated steel. Not sure of the effect of copper (or CuO as an acidic nute soln would oxidise the Cu plating fast) on plants. I don't think I'd leave a ground rod in my nute tanks, that's for sure. 



Ghost420 said:


> however because it is in soil


Sorry, I'm not a soil guy, there's much better soil growers than me whom you should consult. 



> i know that my pictures aren't very good


you're right, it's too out of focus for me to be able to tell you anything.


----------



## growinman (Oct 4, 2008)

Hi there Al! I was going through your gallery pics looking for something that showed what your root systems look like when mid-way, or so, through your 4 tray cycle. Do they grow right out of that fytocel stuff and intertwine into a mess? How do you control or deal with that?, or does by moving them every 2 weeks help?

Thanks much!


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 4, 2008)

growinman said:


> Do they grow right out of that fytocel stuff and intertwine into a mess? How do you control or deal with that?, or does by moving them every 2 weeks help?


Some roots nose out of the drain holes in the pots, but the exposed roots are not kept wet enough by the either 2 or 3 floods/lights-on to support their escape. Exposure to air prunes off any escapees. They're never more than a couple mm long out of the drain holes.


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## mountaindude530 (Oct 4, 2008)

Hey Al, couple questions for you.. I read in one of your _very _previous posts that you use a fluorescent uv ionizer to counteract odors.. How well does it work?? Is it more efficient than a carbonair filter?? I was looking for alternatives in an attempt to save space.. Also, I've read a post where you said you use a lightproof curtain to seperate your mothers from your flower room.. what material is it exactly? thanks.. and sorry if you've already been asked this.. i went through a few pages to check but it's a little wacky to browse all 100+


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 4, 2008)

mountaindude530 said:


> I read in one of your _very _previous posts that you use a fluorescent uv ionizer to counteract odors.. How well does it work?? Is it more efficient than a carbonair filter?? I was looking for alternatives in an attempt to save space..


I'm using some Uvonair UV fluoro ionisers. They're highly effective at killing scent in and around the op. 

 

I have one propped up so its output mixes with the air coming out of the bud dryer, arguably the stinkiest air in the op, and you simply would never know there is a pound of buds in the room with you. 

However, the single tube UV ioniser in the flowering area doesn't always keep up with the 600CFM exhaust blower. I'm considering a carbon filter, but in my circumstances, with my nearest neighbours about 1km away, it's hard to justify. 



> Also, I've read a post where you said you use a lightproof curtain to seperate your mothers from your flower room.. what material is it exactly?


Just a double thickness of panda film, looped over a 2x4 which is screwed to the ceiling, white sides outward.


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## flipsidesw (Oct 4, 2008)

Whats up AL!

I see ur thread is still cruzin'!! 

I just wanted to know some things to keep in mind while choosing a balsast. I'm not sure im sold on the digi's so im gonna get a magnetic. I guess my question is, Can a person go cheap on a 600hps ballast? I know ur a BSEE in all. I just want something safe to use and last awhile.


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## Old in the Way (Oct 4, 2008)

"ROOTS", I say it again "ROOTS"!!!!

In one short week.

"In the aerocloner?" you ask.

"FUCT NO" I reply "Not in my $485 aerocloner (EZ Cloner 120) with another $100 in a heater, timer, thermometer and bs to optimize it. But in my $7 tray on the $40 heat mat plugged in to a $30 thermostat, oh and $6 in starter plugs......$83.00 vs. $600 hhmmmmmm.........and the suuurvey saaays.."

"Number One Answer"

-I have alot to learn from Al

should have returned the one i had when you suggested it. C'est la vi.


----------



## SomeGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

Ive had good luck with my homemade bubble cloner thus far... but also consistent results in rockwool. I think.. whatever works. But I def would expect it to be easy from something called an EZ cloner..LOL


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 5, 2008)

flipsidesw said:


> I guess my question is, Can a person go cheap on a 600hps ballast?


 Yes, but have them fire up the cheapie in the shop before you take it home. If it is not silent (or bloody close to it) 1-2 minutes after starting, the inductor laminations are not well fixed down and it _*will*_ get noisier with age. It should not buzz, hum or sing at all. Even a cheap inductive ballast will last years, just make sure the one you pick is silent.



Old in the Way said:


> "ROOTS", I say it again "ROOTS"!!!!
> 
> In one short week.


7 days is *bloody *good, _especially_ for an early attempt. That's exactly what should happen, every time. You got the watering totally right. Well done!  I have seen roots out of RW cubes in as little as 5 days but 7 is more than acceptable. 



SomeGuy said:


> Ive had good luck with my homemade bubble cloner thus far... but also consistent results in rockwool.


Lucky you. I could never get consistent results with aerocloners. Sometimes it worked great, sometimes stem tips rotted, requiring recutting.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 5, 2008)

oh yeah, a couple notes about ionisers... 

O3 can cause natural rubber parts to dry rot. You don't wanna know how pissed off I was when I found cosmetic dry rot on my brand new set of Metzeler ME88/99 tyres I put on my touring bike just before winter layup and just before buying the O3 gens. Motorcycle tyres are natural rubber with low polymer content compared to car tyres, which for all intents and purposes, have a lot of plasticky polymers which make them last a long time. Motorcycle tyres & aircraft tyres are natural rubber for best adhesion, but they have the poorest durability and resilience to O3. 

On the upside, the grow room vents into a crawl space, which had a persistent musty odour prior to getting the O3 gens. Scentless now. Even if you don't have a grow room, you want one of these things for attics & basements. 

Great stuff, UV O3 gens. Just keep their output away from your $500 set of motorcycle tyres...


----------



## DR. VonDankenstine (Oct 5, 2008)

So were you ever able to built your own ionozer? I followed the other thread "diy big blu bastard" and there was no further info past looking into building your own.---I've got a little "air tiger" that does a good job when needed.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 5, 2008)

no, I had some spare UV tubes and some fluoro ballasts for ordinary fluoro lamps. Wired 'em up, they would not strike. Put it aside, haven't messed with it for a while.


----------



## paperfetti (Oct 5, 2008)

Sorry, I can't tell what I'm looking at. 

I don't see any HPS lighting. If you're going to SoG, you need HPS in flowering. CFLs won't cut it. 

sorry cant figure the quote thing out...but i do have a 600 watt hps cool tube (dont know why i didnt add pic,but yea i have that) ..please tell me u can help me.


----------



## sparkafire (Oct 5, 2008)

Hi AL Having an issue with my transplanted MUMS I transplanted my mums from sitting in pellets in 6in RW and i needed to get them with the rest of my plants on a 2hr flood. 

I put them in buckets with RW above the water line. My leaves have started to look like PIC below yellowing leaves along with being very papery and rough in texture the plant seems very weak and just not feeling well in general I believe its Magnesium deficiency. 

I am thinking flushing the RW just because of the buildup of crap in it and see where that gets me. 

What are my options to fix this? I am kinda at a loss here.

I am using Flora Nova VEG 1400 PPM it was 3 hr water cycle 24 /7 but just moved it to 2 hr water and 18/6 light and it is always 5.8PH 

Thanks ABF 








My set up


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 5, 2008)

sparkafire said:


> I am using Flora Nova


First, get an inorganic nutrient. The sales lit on FloraNova indicates that it is partly organic. It is thus incompatible with H2O2. H2O2 could be breaking down the organics into forms unusable by the plant, causing this problem. 

As a side note, I've been looking at Botanicare's product line as a result of several ppl asking me questions about grows while using their products. Botanicare have some odd mixes of inorganic and organic nutes as well as organic nutes, which cause problems through incompatibility with H2O2. Hydroguard is a protein-based enzymatic agent which is also incompatible with H2O2. Sweet and Clearex are sugar-based magic sauces which are fully useless in hydroponics. Liquid Karma is a growth stimulant, organic based, meaning it is also incompatible with H2O2.They also don't tell you what's in it, making it a 'magic sauce.' Their Hydroplex bloom enhancer is about the only thing they sell that I'd even consider using; they do give good information about what's in it.


----------



## growinman (Oct 5, 2008)

Al, could you please direct me to a pic of yours showing what your pots look like? I cant seem to find one and I am wondering what exactly to get.... If you keep the majority of the roots inside, do the pots just have holes in the bottom?<----how long does it take to flood them then?

Thanks for your time!! and expert help!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 5, 2008)

growinman said:


> Al, could you please direct me to a pic of yours showing what your pots look like? I cant seem to find one and I am wondering what exactly to get.... If you keep the majority of the roots inside, do the pots just have holes in the bottom?<----how long does it take to flood them then?


They are ordinary black plastic pots intended for soil with drain holes in the bottom, 175mm top dia, 130mm bottom dia, 175mm tall. Water from flooding enters and leaves just fine, thanks. Takes the same time to flood them as the pump takes raise the flood level to the overflow. 

Netpots are not desirable in this application.


----------



## NLXSK1 (Oct 5, 2008)

Al,

Thanks again for all the valuable information. 

Do you worry about moving your plants around or do you do it on a regular basis? I know you obviously move them every 2 weeks when they switch trays but in between those times do you rotate/move them very often? Does that cause shock while the plant tries to re-align towards the lights?

Also, over many posts I have read 3 sizes for your flood trays. 4'x4' which we both know is wrong, 900 mm from the Errata on one of your monster posts and 820 mm from another location. What is the true answer?

For the flood tray in one post you said that you flood your trays to 150mm depth and in another post you recommended that the tray be flooded between 100mm - 120mm. Provided that the plant in a 40mm rockwool cube is 1/2" above the flood line would it be preferrable to flood as much of the pot as possible or just to a set level in pots filled with rockwool flock liner and fytocell?

I am finishing getting supplies together and am just trying to think the grow through so that I can be prepared for many of the minute details.

Thanks in advance.


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## gvega187 (Oct 5, 2008)

al, do you have any experience with hygrozyme? I hear you can basically use it as a substitute for h2o2 in some cases. It prevents root rot as does h2o2, but works well with organic/chem nutes like floranova. 

haven't checked out the FAQ'd lately, but looks like it is only getting more popular. Thanks for hanging in there pro.


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## growinman (Oct 5, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> They are ordinary black plastic pots intended for soil with drain holes in the bottom, 175mm top dia, 130mm bottom dia, 175mm tall. Water from flooding enters and leaves just fine, thanks. Takes the same time to flood them as the pump takes raise the flood level to the overflow.
> 
> Netpots are not desirable in this application.


Thanks for the quick response, Al!! This is just what I needed to know to get this thing going tonight.... I didn't thinnk they could be the regular pots---now I dont even have to go to HD, let alone the hydro store!! Have a great night!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 5, 2008)

NLXSK1 said:


> Al,
> I know you obviously move them every 2 weeks when they switch trays but in between those times do you rotate/move them very often?


 No, not usually. I put the shortest plants nearest the light when shifting them from tray to tray.


> Does that cause shock while the plant tries to re-align towards the lights?


No, phototroping toward light does not cause 'shock.' When we talk about 'shocking' a plant, it's usually in reference to transplant shock, in which roots are torn in the process of transplantation, which causes the plant to wilt. 


> Also, over many posts I have read 3 sizes for your flood trays. 4'x4' which we both know is wrong, 900 mm from the Errata on one of your monster posts and 820 mm from another location. What is the true answer?


They're both right. The trays have a lip that runs around the edge, which rests on the stand. The overall dimensions including the lip are 900 x 900mm. The dimensions of the flat floor of the tray where pots sit are 820mm x 820mm. 



> For the flood tray in one post you said that you flood your trays to 150mm depth and in another post you recommended that the tray be flooded between 100mm - 120mm. Provided that the plant in a 40mm rockwool cube is 1/2" above the flood line would it be preferable to flood as much of the pot as possible or just to a set level in pots filled with rockwool flock liner and fytocell?


The 'flood to 1/2" below RW cube' spec is for pots of pellets where clones have been started in RW cubes. When using RW floc as a medium, it's really only necessary to flood to about 50mm deep as RW has a strong wicking action. With Fytocell, I flood it to a depth similar to that for pellets but much less often, 2x/lights-on for wks 1-2 flowering plants, and 3x/lights-on for more developed plants.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 5, 2008)

gvega187 said:


> al, do you have any experience with hygrozyme? I hear you can basically use it as a substitute for h2o2 in some cases. It prevents root rot as does h2o2, but works well with organic/chem nutes like floranova.


yes, if you're deadset upon using organics, you'd use an enzymatic agent to help break down dead organic matter. However, they do not kill pathogens nor do they give off O2 in the rootmass while so doing.



growinman said:


> Thanks for the quick response, Al!! This is just what I needed to know to get this thing going tonight.... I didn't thinnk they could be the regular pots---now I dont even have to go to HD, let alone the hydro store!!


yep, ordinary average pots for soil.







I used to buy them at Kmart, found them for half the price ($0.45/ea in stacks of 70) at a gardening plastics supply house.


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## ShirShmokesAlot (Oct 5, 2008)

hello..
So i've read the first 127 pages of your FAQ before i even registered to join the site. figured it was definately worth my time. anyway i was just wondering if you had some pointers and tips for a newb. i've grown a couple cycles before, but non educated like, alot of trial and error, whatnot. its been a few years, and i'm definately ready to get back to being self supplied. i will have a 400w hps special coming from htg, it should be here 1-2 days. i have a blank canvas, plenty of room, and unlimited potental. i would love to stay right in the 2'x3' range for flowering, and will be following your specs for clones and "mums", i can get all that on my own, naturally unfortunately i will have to grow in soil, as that i am a total newb, and dont want to mess with hyd til i have a little more experience handling the plants. any suggestions or advice for a smooth start would be greatly appreciated. 
thanks a million.


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## DeweyKox (Oct 5, 2008)

Yo Al, How the hell do I get this Clue like stinkyness off my fingers? After handling the plants, I wash my hands with soap and water, and makes not difference, should I where gloves?

And is this all the THC, and is there a way when touching them especially during harvest where you wont take it off the plants onto your hands?


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## Dugout (Oct 6, 2008)

Hey Al, haven't talked to you in a few days so I thought I would let you know what is going on. I have 2 seedlings that have come up. I planted one about 2 days before the other because the second seed I started on the first day didn't make it. Anyway the seed that was planted 2 days later has caught up and passed the first seed by about an inch. The stem seems to be a little spendally it almost makes an S shape. Is there anything I can do to correct this situation. I have about 8 days before transfering to hydro unit and will waite about 4 days after that to start nutes at a low low level. Planning on bumping it up every 4 days till at desired level I thought I heard you say when you add nutes to change your water every time is this even as you are raising the PH levels to desired amounts? Well bro I hope this message finds you doing well. I look forward to hearing from you as always. Peace and out The Ole Hippy DUGOUT


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## ldnsharkkid (Oct 6, 2008)

Hey al, whats up mate?? I was hoping you might be able to lend me an opinion on my setup, and anything i may be doing incorrectly, you are 'DA' man when it comes to flood and drain. My main questions if you dont have time to look at my journal are:

1. Im going to fire up the MH over my seedlings in about 2 days, so they will be 14/15 days old, and they will also be in the hydro system, does this sound ok and how high would you start the hanging, im using a supernova reflector with no glass and it isnt aircooled, temps aren't a problem always 24-26c ??

2. I know you only flood twice a day because ur medium retains some solution, but as i will be using clay pebbles how many times should i flood the tray, i was thinking 5 times a day, 1 at lights on, 1 5 hours into lights on, 1 an hour from lights off, and then twice while its dark evenly spaced out, does this sound ok or too much???

3. If you dont mind having a look at some of my pics, i have some reddish/brown spots on my leaves, i have no clue what they are and its only on the 1 plant. Is this likely to be a big problem, i have fed them no nutes so far and the light isnt strong enough to burn the leaves, and even if it was all of them would be burned wouldnt they???

4. 70% Humidity for vegging and 50% for flowering,does this sound correct??

5. Do i need to rinse new clay pebbles and if so what with, ph'd water or some other cleaning solution??

I am fairly well-educated and once i have been told something once i grasp it pretty quickly and dont repeat questions/errors which hopefully will help me out lol......but what i mean is if you explain something quite technical to me, it wont be a problem. Anyways, id love to hear some advice and keep up the good growing, by christmas i will have exactly the same setup as yours but for now its just a 1st grow with 2 flood tables and an XXL budbox, but still the same principles, thanks again anyway............


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 6, 2008)

ShirShmokesAlot said:


> dont want to mess with hyd til i have a little more experience handling the plants. any suggestions or advice for a smooth start would be greatly appreciated.


 My best suggestion is to get over your fear of hydroponics. If you use inorganic nutes, regular dosing with H2O2 and run plants in pots of some sort of media in tray-based flood systems, you will succeed the first time and will continue to do so. Yes, there's some startup costs involved in doing hydroponics- you must have EC & pH meters (about $100 ea) and must acquire the bits for a watering system (tray, tank, air & water pumps, about $50-150 depending on how good a shopper you are), but other than that, there's no difference in the startup cost for a soil based system and hydroponics. A soil grow still needs proper HPS lighting, ventilation and temp control. Soil grows are always slower and less productive than hydroponics.



DeweyKox said:


> Yo Al, How the hell do I get this Clue like stinkyness off my fingers? After handling the plants, I wash my hands with soap and water, and makes not difference, should I where gloves?


 Cannabis resin is highly soluble in ethanol. Use a squirt of methylated spirit aka denatured alcohol (95% ethanol) on your fingers for cleanup- job done. Also great for cleaning your bong. 



> And is this all the THC, and is there a way when touching them especially during harvest where you wont take it off the plants onto your hands?


 Unfortunately, there's no way to manicure your buds without *some* THC-bearing resin winding up on your fingers & shears. No worries, you can roll the sticky resin off your fingers (before removing the remaining resin with methylated spirit, of course) and smoke it later.



Dugout said:


> The stem seems to be a little spendally it almost makes an S shape. Is there anything I can do to correct this situation.


How wet are you keeping the medium you are starting the seeds in? Overwet media will cause excessive stretch in seedlings. 



> I thought I heard you say when you add nutes to change your water every time is this even as you are raising the PH levels to desired amounts?


Tank maintenance is easy. Add nutrient concentrates to plain tapwater (_*only*_- never add concentrates to an existing tank of mixed nutes), check pH. Most nutes include pH buffers, which when you mix for an adequate nute strength, will set the pH very close to 5.8. If the pH doesn't quite come down to 5.8, use a phosphoric acid based pHDown sauce to correct to 5.8. 

Tapwater will normally be 7.1-9, you'll almost never have cause to raise pH unless you have added too much pHDown. It takes about 10ml of pHDown to drop my 125L tanks from 6.1-6.3 (where pH sits after adding nutes to my tapwater). If you overshoot below 5.8, you'll need some pHUp sauce (potassium hydroxide based, usually) to fix it. pHUp solutions are effective in VERY small quantity, use it 1ml (or less) at a time. You will want a 10ml syringe for measuring pH adjustment solns. 



ldnsharkkid said:


> Hey al, whats up mate?? I was hoping you might be able to lend me an opinion on my setup, and anything i may be doing incorrectly, you are 'DA' man when it comes to flood and drain. My main questions if you dont have time to look at my journal are:
> 
> 1. Im going to fire up the MH over my seedlings in about 2 days, so they will be 14/15 days old, and they will also be in the hydro system, does this sound ok and how high would you start the hanging, im using a supernova reflector with no glass and it isnt aircooled, temps aren't a problem always 24-26c ??


Yes, you can introduce them to your (unspecified power) MH when they have their 2nd set of true leaves. Start with the lamp about 3-4' above the newbies, drop the lamp 1' after 3-4 days, if all looks well, drop it another 1'. Spacing depends on what size lamp you have. 


> 2. I know you only flood twice a day because ur medium retains some solution, but as i will be using clay pebbles how many times should i flood the tray, i was thinking 5 times a day, 1 at lights on, 1 5 hours into lights on, 1 an hour from lights off, and then twice while its dark evenly spaced out, does this sound ok or too much???


_*NEVER *_flood in lights-off. Transpiration all but stops when the lights go out. There will be enough water in the rootmass to get them through the dark period. If you water in lights-off, the water will just sit in the rootmass, which can encourage root rot. Start clones in pots of pellets by watering 5x/lights-on, assuring your RW cube is 1/2" above the flood level. When plants are larger, they can get watered every 2h beginning at lights-on, _*avoiding watering in the last 2h of lights-on*_ unless the plants are very vigorous and would otherwise wilt before lights-off. 



> 3. If you dont mind having a look at some of my pics, i have some reddish/brown spots on my leaves,


Your closeup photos are too blurry for me to be able to tell you anything. 

I'm not sure why you have put your 40mm cubes into larger RW blocks. This isn't necessary and makes overwatering very likely for a new grower. Once they have roots out of the small cubes, they can go into pots of pellets. 

 



> 4. 70% Humidity for vegging and 50% for flowering,does this sound correct??


70% is too high, will encourage powdery mildew. 30-50% is ideal. 


> 5. Do i need to rinse new clay pebbles and if so what with, ph'd water or some other cleaning solution??


Flush new pellets with copious quantities of plain water to remove any dust from manufacturing.


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## Dugout (Oct 6, 2008)

Hey Al, I have a rockwool medium 1" cube setting in a small trey surounded by clay pellets from hydro unit one of them I have cut down a little to fit into a container with miracle gro took out and planted in small trey after you told me that was no good. I think you are right about the to much water. I have been using a tbl spoon to add water to clay pellets and sometimes wet the cube. I also put a small stick that is used for corn dogs to straighten up stem seems to be working pretty good. So anyway is there anyway to correct the over watering. Thanks bro O yea that first plant that I screwed up so much on I got about 1/4 oz dried and it wasn't to bad nice mellow buzz guess I just got lucky. Things are looking really good so far on my seedlings just need to correct the over watering problem Well bro Peace and out the Ole Hippy DUGOUT


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 6, 2008)

Dugout said:


> Hey Al, I have a rockwool medium 1" cube setting in a small trey surounded by clay pellets from hydro unit one of them I have cut down a little to fit into a container with miracle gro took out and planted in small trey after you told me that was no good. I think you are right about the to much water. I have been using a tbl spoon to add water to clay pellets and sometimes wet the cube.


Pellets are not necessary until you have roots out of the cubes and are ready to put the plants into an automated watering system, flood systems work best for new growers. 

The worst thing you can do is leave RW cubes in a puddle of water. This will keep them constantly saturated and is a sure way to kill seedlings or clones.



> So anyway is there anyway to correct the over watering.


yeah, give them less water!  The RW cube must never be saturated. It must be damp but never wet. 

Abandon the teaspoon measure. It changes by country and can be anything from 5-8ml. Get some 10ml syringes, they're very cheap and much more accurate than a teaspoon for measuring small amts of water or pH adjustment solns.

I don't see a mention of a heat mat. If you had a proper 30C horticultural heat mat, your 25mm cubes would need about 15ml of water per day. 

25mm cubes are a bit small, I prefer 40mm plastic wrapped cubes. With 25mm cubes on a heat mat, check them a couple of times a day, giving about 7-8ml at ~12h intervals, more or less as needed. Keep in mind that 25mm cubes will dry out rather quickly. I can't tell you just how quickly; this will vary with the air temp of your seedling/clone box, which should maintain air temp at 30C. 

I can tell you that 40mm cubes weigh 5g dry and 20-25g when just damp and not wet. I can't give you as precise figures for 25mm cubes.


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## ldnsharkkid (Oct 6, 2008)

Thanks for the advice Al, much appreciated, i think i may have overwatered them already as they are droopy and its definately not underwatering lol, i havent fed them since yesterday so ill let them dry out some more and see if they perk up, i hope so, but when i was watering them i was basically dipping them in ph'd water for 5 secs and squeezing off the excess water, but im guessin the big cubes hold a lot of water so they were too wet, newbie error but hopefully will be alrite when it goes in the hydro system, still not arrived company takin the mick might be the recession lol..........

And sorry but its a 600w MH gonna have a 600 for each flood table 2 at the mo, hopefully more at christmas.........

Also the pics will be better its ust my phone at the mo but its supposed to be 5 megapixels though lol which is supposed to be pretty good but o well ill grab the digicam from my gf soon,

Thanks for the help Al im sure well be speaking again


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 6, 2008)

ldnsharkkid said:


> they are droopy


yep, overwatered.



> i was watering them i was basically dipping them in ph'd water for 5 secs and squeezing off the excess water,


RW will fully saturate in just a second or two. Water cubes by dipping only a corner of the cube into a bucket of pH 5.8 water. 

_*NEVER*_ squeeze rockwool!! This crushes the material and removes all the airspaces. You will have constant problems with overwatering symptoms now that you have crushed the material, until this mob have roots out of the cube bottoms and are ready to go in pots of pellets in a flood system. 



> but im guessin the big cubes hold a lot of water so they were too wet,


Even small RW cubes are easy to overwater. The term 'overwater' means you have displaced all the air out of the medium with water. 



> And sorry but its a 600w MH gonna have a 600 for each flood table 2 at the mo, hopefully more at christmas.........


Why a 600MH? The only use you will have in your op for a MH is raising mums and a 175MH will do for that. Use HPS for flowering. 

If you can cover the flowering area with a single 1000HPS, you'll get more intensity (165,000lm vs 95,000lm) and save a fair amount of power. A 600HPS will draw about 650-670W from the AC mains. A 1000 will draw about 1100 from the mains. 



> Also the pics will be better its ust my phone at the mo but its supposed to be 5 megapixels


Could be a million megapixels but that doesn't matter one bit if the camera won't focus close up.


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## poo (Oct 6, 2008)

hi al. I'm really sorry if you already answered this, but i couldn't find it anywhere.

I was reading some of your old posts and gathered that you use or have used canna nutes, and been incontact with the company several times.

My question is, do YOU use full strength nutes? I have a flood and drain table, 400whps, rockwool cubes in hydroton. Res pH 5.7-5.9. I have given them a week at .5ml/L, they are now on 1ml/L - plan for two weeks. Should i go upto 2 or even 3ml/l?

What do u do? Also when i switch to flower, i'll use the same strength (as in ml/L) that i did for veg the week before, but in bloom nutes, thats fine yeah?


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## crypies00 (Oct 6, 2008)

Al, Let me first start off by saying, thank you for the amount of time you've spent helping others here. I know I've spent countless hours reading your suggestions (all of the cloning and 2 week thread) and I really do think this setup is the one that makes the most sense.

I've decided to do my own first personal grow (I've been told I need a hobby, too bad I can't include nor tell anyone about my new one!). I have access to a building that has a built in cabinet space. My problem is the cabinet is sectioned off into boxes. I can remove and reinforce any length, but I'm having difficulties trying to determine how best to section off the areas. 

Here's a kiddy drawing of what I have to work with: 








The box sits against a lightly insulated wall to the outside, which I have the ability to cut through in order to grab fresh air and exhaust old. I know you stress over and over about being able to control air flow and temp. And although it's about to be winter time here I think I can manage with a small heater. But it seems fresh outside air would be best.

Here's what I am thinking about modifying the cabinet to look like. 







Any suggestions that would increase efficiency and do you see any potential problems that I am obviously missing due to my inexperience?

And thanks again for putting up with so many damn questions from everyone!


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 6, 2008)

poo said:


> My question is, do YOU use full strength nutes?


What's 'full strength'? 

Nutrient strength is measured by electrical conductivity (EC) of the soln, usually specified in ppm. I run my flowering tanks at 1400, my mums get 1600-1800. 

ml/l doesn't help me much, what does your EC meter say your nute soln strength is in ppm?



> Also when i switch to flower, i'll use the same strength (as in ml/L) that i did for veg the week before, but in bloom nutes, thats fine yeah?


Depends. I run my mums at 1600-1800 as they are fairly large plants (as my plants go) under 24/7 HPS lighting. If I were vegging up some new seedlings, I don't think I'd run them quite that high, perhaps 1000-1200 until they were more advanced. 

You DO have a pH meter (strips & liquid colour matching kits are not good enough) and a nutrient meter, right?


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## Return of the Spork (Oct 6, 2008)

Is that on a 700 scale? My meter likes the 500 scale so it gets confusing. I always have to reference EC but ppm seems so much more exact


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 6, 2008)

crypies00 said:


> Al, Let me first start off by saying, thank you for the amount of time you've spent helping others here. I know I've spent countless hours reading your suggestions (all of the cloning and 2 week thread) and I really do think this setup is the one that makes the most sense.


Thanks. 

I arrived at the system I describe mainly because I'm a stoned slacker. I used to grow a roomful at a time but this built dead time into the sked and meant I was harvesting a roomful at a time. Breaking up the harvests into 1/4 of the room capacity every 2 weeks suits my level of interest in working hard. 



> I know you stress over and over about being able to control air flow and temp. And although it's about to be winter time here I think I can manage with a small heater. But it seems fresh outside air would be best.


I'd much rather have tight control on air temp than an intake from outdoors. Indoor air will have the same CO2 content (if not more due to you breathing in the space) as outdoor air. I'd intake air from the living space as it is more likely to be close to the air temp that the plants need. I'd exhaust to outdoors or preferably an attic to muffle fan noise. 


> Any suggestions that would increase efficiency and do you see any potential problems


You need as much vertical height as you can get from this space for your flowering area. Looks like you may be able to get 65" if you remove all shelves. Mother plants can do with a bit less. The upper left area might be good for clones. If mums are in the space below it, the heat from mother plant lighting will warm the compartment above, suiting your need for 30C air temp in the clonebox. Open up the remaining spaces on the right as a single area for flowering. 

Clone and mum areas will need exhaust fans. If considering sourcing and dumping air form these areas into the flowering area, keep in mind that the air paths will need to be light-trapped so veg cycle lighting does not interrupt the dark period for flowering plants.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 6, 2008)

Return of the Spork said:


> Is that on a 700 scale? My meter likes the 500 scale so it gets confusing. I always have to reference EC but ppm seems so much more exact


700 scale? 500 scale? Hm?


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## poo (Oct 6, 2008)

i do have a pH meter but no ec meter. The full strength im reffering to is the reccomended 2-3ml/L on the back of the bottle (I get it thought, you sayiung that ml/L doesn't do much for u as you've got ec to go by). I think your a bit advanced for me, i'll need to get an ec meter and start measuring nutes that way. Just heard i could get away without an ec pen thats all. Maybe after harvest ill grab one.

Thanks anyway Al. Always informative.


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## Eharmony420 (Oct 6, 2008)

Hey A.L, 
longtime reader,i need to come forward and ask a queation. I have 2 ebb systems built. i ready to move one in to my flower room. I a nub. my grow is evolving and i almost "there" for my taste. (fornow lol). One is the 11 plant 2 liter plan everyone can see on the net. the other is a a basically 3 feet by one and a half ebb tray made from a mortar mixing tray form home depot. this tray has no raised channels. The 2 systems have their flaws. 
i plant 2 keep a mother in a seperate veg chamber under a 150 hps in dwc with 15 clones or prepping safely in that area. it will be northern lights eventually, if they get here, but for now bag seed. i using a 400 hps to flower for not in a big 4x4x6.5 tent.\. i plan to move clones once roots good to either system then veg for a week or so till strong then flower,
the 11 plant system yu can see below. I not worried about this system at all. it came out beautufully so far, i have yet to plaug it in, that tomight. it does have 11 sites. I also have the ebb tray. i was going to use 2 liter bottles and i can cram a ton more than 11 in there. i worried that the tray won drain properly and nute salts might build up. that prob a little wacky as i can tilt it but i dont know how serious drainage grooves are in pro model. i a nub. I 
I was wondering, shud i use the 11 plant or the ebb tray? I stumped and after some experience.I want to lollipo the clones also, i think that cool. although with 11 big sites so neat like that i confused as what to do!


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## Return of the Spork (Oct 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 700 scale? 500 scale? Hm?


I could be way wrong, but it seems to me that there are TDS meters that measure 1EC to be 500ppm, and others that measure 1EC to be 700ppm. My Bluelab meter for example measures 1EC at 500ppm, but on the AN website, their calculators list 1EC as 700ppm. 

Since you say 1400ppm, was wondering if that means 2 EC (700 scale) or 2.8 EC (500 scale)

Or am I just seeing things that aren't there? Searching the web gives me info pointing to both so it seems that EC is the value that stays consistent for everyone.


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## BigBudBalls (Oct 6, 2008)

Eharmony420 said:


> I was wondering, shud i use the 11 plant or the ebb tray? I stumped and after some experience.I want to lollipo the clones also, i think that cool. although with 11 big sites so neat like that i confused as what to do!


Dude! I just built that, almost! The prob is gluing in th bottle caps. They are HDPE, which there is no glue for. I plan on making a mold (the mold i 1/2 built) and casting them myself. But I ditched it for now and used a simple (and cheaper!) tray.
Gives more options for placement and such.

The tray was $5.41 at lowes,(used for mixing cement) ~$6 for bulkhead fittings. The PVC was over $25. (tub and pump were needed for both)



> I'd much rather have tight control on air temp than an intake from outdoors. Indoor air will have the same CO2 content (if not more due to you breathing in the space) as outdoor air.


Al, I found my indoor to be near double the outside levels. Outside by me is about 400ppm indoor is about 700ppm. My grow closet, I leave the door open most of the time, hovers around 500-600ppm. Another reason to leave CO2 as the last piece of the puzzle.


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## crypies00 (Oct 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You need as much vertical height as you can get from this space for your flowering area. Looks like you may be able to get 65" if you remove all shelves. Mother plants can do with a bit less. The upper left area might be good for clones. If mums are in the space below it, the heat from mother plant lighting will warm the compartment above, suiting your need for 30C air temp in the clonebox. Open up the remaining spaces on the right as a single area for flowering.


Great ideas about the clone box. It's only 15" in total height, looking at your clones (which I can only hope will be as large and healthy) are about 10". So I suppose that will be plenty of space.

What size light would you suggest for the main flowering area?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 6, 2008)

crypies00 said:


> Great ideas about the clone box. It's only 15" in total height, looking at your clones (which I can only hope will be as large and healthy) are about 10". So I suppose that will be plenty of space.


Yep, 15" will be tight, but do-able. 



> What size light would you suggest for the main flowering area?


Either a 250 or 400HPS. Put it in a cooltube or build an enclosure with a sheet of glass between the lamp & plant area so the air which cools the lamp remains separate from the airmass around the flowering plants.


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## holmes (Oct 6, 2008)

A round of  for Al.

my question today is, how do calculate the size of a res tank, lets consider a 5x5 table, 7 in high, with 4 plants in a square foot.
also lets say we only flood to 5in.
with that volume, i beleive thats approximately 295L
now that is just too damn much to be flushing down the drain at the end of the week, for one table.
also you could fill the table with a medium(I am thinking Higromite) of some sort(i think i would prefer not to, but if it has to be done to fix the nutrient volume issue). but how much could this take up?, 70-80% volume?
if thats right, the 100 L res will do fine no?
but im not sure


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 6, 2008)

holmes said:


> A round of  for Al.
> 
> my question today is, how do calculate the size of a res tank, lets consider a 5x5 table, 7 in high, with 4 plants in a square foot.
> also lets say we only flood to 5in.
> ...


Al's tables are less than 3x3 per side at the bottom which is less than 9 square feet and he uses 125 litre tanks.

You are talking about an area of 5x5 per side or 25 square feet. So it is close to 3 times the area.

You are talking about 100 plants in that space which is over 4 times the plants that he flowers in one tray.

I would say you would have to have one hell of a big resevoir for that setup 400-500L...


----------



## Eharmony420 (Oct 6, 2008)

just to let u all know there is a peice at hd i just found for the 11 plant sytem to attach the 2 liter bottles. look for the female and clean 1 inch adapters, the 2 liter caps jam snug in. sorry to interrup! Al,any idea on whats better the 11 2 liter bottle ebb design or a 2 liter bottle in mortar tray design. i got both ready to go, advice senor? ty


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## ldnsharkkid (Oct 7, 2008)

Hey al, thanks again for the helpful info uve already given me, so right now im letting them grow without feeding them or until they dry out a bit more.

Just to confirm what im doing with this op right now, i only have space for an XXL Budbox until December 5th when i move into my house and then i will be using 1 or 2 rooms which each can hold 4 flood trays. This is when im gonna start my perpetual harvest plan like urs, but for now as im only in the budbox with 2 flood tables im gonna do a full grow (veg + flower) which is why i have the 600mh. It will come in use at a later stage aswell no doubt but for now its jus for vegging these babies.

Thanks for your advice also with regards to the squeezing of the rockwool, im a scientific person like urself and i inderstand about the displacement of air when introducing water, but i just didnt associate it with rockwool because my scientific side isnt quite in sync with my growing side as im a newbie, but now u said it i fully understand how overatering happens and is easy to do in rockwool, luckily for me it was only a gentle pinch on the bottom not sqeezin like a stress ball lol.......

I will no doubt be asking for more advice if thats ok with you but for now im gonna wait for these bloody flood tables from mu supplier,think he having courier problems but like i said to him, thats not my problem i ust want them now.......

And just to ask the same thing as a coupla posts ago, on my bluelab truncheon i have 4 readings measurements, EC, CF, PPM (EC x 500) and PPM (EC x 700)........me personally id rather just work off the ec rather than the PPM but i wouldnt mind knowing why i have the seperate PPM readings, if i had to use my brain id say it would be to do with the solution you are actually dipping in, say maybe Hardwater or softwater, as i believe the hardwater has a higher ppm reading so id use the x500, but i am a newbie so i am probably completely wrong but just trying to be logical lol....

Anyways thanks again al top geezer


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## Dugout (Oct 7, 2008)

High Al, Dugout here. Thanks for the info I started using a measuring cup until can get somewhere to buy a syringe. My problem is finding a ride. I am disabled and live in the country so I have to wait to get a ride. Anyway my reasoning for putting the pellets in was because I thought just wetting the clay pellets the plant could draw water off of the water retention in the clay pellets. I do have a heating pad under the grow tray but it is a regular house hold pad not horticultural. I have it set on medium which is still very low heat but enough to warm the cubes enough that they seem to like it on medium you can place your hand on it and get a nice warm feeling not to hot and not to cold I think just right. My question of the day because you know I have to be a pain in the ass. On Sunday I will transfer the seedlings to hydro unit and as I have said before I have a small drip system and I was wondering how often and how long I should run the drip. I have heard so many different things from watering 10 min. 24/7 all the way up to 1 hour once a day so what is your opinion on the matter. Anyway as always I am in your debt for all of the help you give me. I wish there was someway I could send you something in thanks of all your help and patience Burn one for me Peace and out The Ole Hippy Dugout


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## HAZEOHOLIC (Oct 7, 2008)

Hi Al 
I know it's me again almost finish with getting all the supplies I need thanks to you bro.
Al I have a true 2x2 tray running 4 of them what size res do I need and if you can tell me what model pump to use and you were telling me about getting a cool tube. Got it what CFM fan would cool one 600 watt cool tube reflector? I've been looking for the same nuts canna can't find them if you have the link would appriciate it. 
Last question the person at the hydro store said I can flower in 4" or 5" square pots if the trays drains completly them no roots will come out is this true Al. can I use rockwool instead of perlite?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 7, 2008)

holmes said:


> A round of  for Al.


 thanks. 



> my question today is, how do calculate the size of a res tank, lets consider a 5x5 table, 7 in high, with 4 plants in a square foot.
> also lets say we only flood to 5in.
> with that volume, i beleive thats approximately 295L


 That's a BIG flood tray! 



> now that is just too damn much to be flushing down the drain at the end of the week, for one table.


 Well, when I consider that I run 4x 900mm x 900mm trays (close enough to 3'x3' for discussion purposes, so ~36 sq ft lighted space), which also flood to about 4-5" and these trays are supplied by 4x 125L tanks, I'm using 500L to supply this space. 



> also you could fill the table with a medium(I am thinking Higromite) of some sort(i think i would prefer not to, but if it has to be done to fix the nutrient volume issue). but how much could this take up?, 70-80% volume?
> if thats right, the 100 L res will do fine no?
> but im not sure


 If you fill the tray with media, there's nothing to keep roots from neighbouring plants from knitting, preventing easy portability of plants within the op. There would be no difference in the res volumerequirements for a tray filled with media as opposed to plants in pots of media. 

I use about 5L of tank volume per plant. With this tank vol per plant ratio, I find that the nute strength remains constant even as water level drops. The plants use the nutes at about the same rate as they use the water.



NLXSK1 said:


> Al's tables are less than 3x3 per side at the bottom which is less than 9 square feet and he uses 125 litre tanks.
> 
> You are talking about an area of 5x5 per side or 25 square feet. So it is close to 3 times the area.


 For each tray, yeah.



> I would say you would have to have one hell of a big resevoir for that setup 400-500L...


 Yep, I think that's about right. 

I chose to run 4 separate trays and tanks so I could have the ability to tailor the nutes for each 2 week phase, in particular with use of a flowering additive in week 6, but I don't really use that ability. I run all the tanks at 1400. It's also a bit hard to find inexpensive plastic tubs which are much larger than 125L. Use of multiple tanks to feed a single large tray can be problematic. 

As you all know, I've had problems with Canna's PK-13-14 cooking plants when using it at the recommended dosage. I've recently gotten a reply from Canna on nutrient strength and use of PK-13-14, but they got a little confused with my query and I need to bounce it off them one more time before I'll cite that conversation on here.



ldnsharkkid said:


> And just to ask the same thing as a coupla posts ago, on my bluelab truncheon i have 4 readings measurements, EC, CF, PPM (EC x 500) and PPM (EC x 700)........





Return of the Spork said:


> I could be way wrong, but it seems to me that there are TDS meters that measure 1EC to be 500ppm, and others that measure 1EC to be 700ppm. My Bluelab meter for example measures 1EC at 500ppm, but on the AN website, their calculators list 1EC as 700ppm.
> 
> Since you say 1400ppm, was wondering if that means 2 EC (700 scale) or 2.8 EC (500 scale)
> 
> Or am I just seeing things that aren't there? Searching the web gives me info pointing to both so it seems that EC is the value that stays consistent for everyone.


 I have a particularly old Truncheon- it's more than 8 years old now, so old that it has the previous company name, NZ Hydroponics, instead of Bluelab, on the label. It also does not have any markings for x500 or x700 on it. I don't quite know why there'd be two conversion scales for EC to ppm. 



> Anyways thanks again al top geezer









yeah man! 



Dugout said:


> my reasoning for putting the pellets in was because I thought just wetting the clay pellets the plant could draw water off of the water retention in the clay pellets.


 Pellets hold next to no water and don't wick much. 



> I do have a heating pad under the grow tray but it is a regular house hold pad not horticultural. I have it set on medium which is still very low heat but enough to warm the cubes enough that they seem to like it on medium you can place your hand on it and get a nice warm feeling not to hot and not to cold I think just right.


 *sigh* You can't _*guess*_ this stuff! You gotta KNOW what it's doing! If you want to use a heating pad for people, get a surface temp thermometer and put an incandescent dimmer inline with the heating pad; this will allow you to get the temp _*close*_ to 30C but will not tightly regulate to that temp- it will change depending on the ambient temp. Allowing this temp to wander around will cause inconsistent results. You really should get a proper, thermostatically controlled horticultural heat mat. 


> I was wondering how often and how long I should run the drip. I have heard so many different things from watering 10 min. 24/7 all the way up to 1 hour once a day so what is your opinion on the matter.


 Depends on the medium you're using. Pellets can be dripfed frequently if not constantly for large, mature plants. Absorbent media like RW can only be watered 1x/day for small plants (wk1-2 of flowering) or 2x/day for larger plants like well developed mums. I don't generally like drip systems because of their propensity to clog drippers, but watering from the top also means you will get a thick sludge of algae forming on the media tops as the top surface will always be wetted with nutrient soln and exposed to light.



poo said:


> I think your a bit advanced for me, i'll need to get an ec meter and start measuring nutes that way. Just heard i could get away without an ec pen thats all. Maybe after harvest ill grab one.


 Sorry, but pH & EC metering are _*really basic*_ bits of kit for hydroponic growing- not advanced at all! Once you have been running your op for several months, you may indeed be able to get away without EC metering, but when you're just starting up, you really need all the information you can get.



Eharmony420 said:


> I was wondering, shud i use the 11 plant or the ebb tray?


 Use commercially made, moulded flood trays with drain channels. Systems with fixed numbers of sites and which prevent you from moving the plants around limit the utility of the system.



BigBudBalls said:


> Al, I found my indoor to be near double the outside levels. Outside by me is about 400ppm indoor is about 700ppm. My grow closet, I leave the door open most of the time, hovers around 500-600ppm. Another reason to leave CO2 as the last piece of the puzzle.


Yep, that's kinda what I expected; people exhaling CO2 in the living space should reasonably be expected to increase CO2 concentration in the living space. 

CO2 is a lovely thing to have, it's just bloody expensive to do it properly. 


HAZEOHOLIC said:


> Got it what CFM fan would cool one 600 watt cool tube reflector?


A 150mm, ~200CFM axial should do just fine. That's what I have driving my 2x 1000W HPS in seriesed cooltubes.


> I've been looking for the same nuts canna can't find them if you have the link would appriciate it.


Canna may be hard to get in the US. I can't offer you any suggestions as I'm not in Nth America.


> Last question the person at the hydro store said I can flower in 4" or 5" square pots if the trays drains completly them no roots will come out is this true Al.


 yes, that should be the way it works- works that way in my flood systems.


> can I use rockwool instead of perlite?


 yes, but you can't flood RW very often due to its high absorbency. Perlite permits more frequent flooding because it is less absorbent.


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## holmes (Oct 7, 2008)

being ambitious can be a pain in the ass, thanks al.
back to the drawing board.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 7, 2008)

Just do flood trays, so much simpler. Easy to clean, can't clog, etc.


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## holmes (Oct 7, 2008)

Wait, i just realized what you said, you let it sit for 2 weeks in a 125L res. What about one week?, do you top it off on a consistent basis?
so then you could use a 60-70L res weekly
do they actually drink all that juice?
how much of it is left over when you refill?
and another question on your lights, you have 2 ~3x3 tables under one 1000, so one 1000 for 3x6?
another question on lights, if you have the light one foot above the canopy, doesnt that reduce the area you can light?, how much area does it cover at one foot above the canopy?
another question on mothers and cuttings, what is the max number of cutting you can take from one mother, if you let it recover for one month(instead of a two week rotation, a four week rotation)

Al........dont be mad with me........kiss-ass


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## bleezyg420 (Oct 7, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Just do flood trays, so much simpler. Easy to clean, can't clog, etc.


I have a question, your inbox is totally full & probably always is . So maybe you will see this and get back with a answer. I have 2 600's. is there any advantages to having 2 flower rooms. I have a veg/mother room aswell so I would be harvesting every month with 2 flower rooms but . Heres the ?? Wouldn't it be more sufficient to but the 600's together in 1 flower room, and just flower all plants combined from both rooms at once? Then I wouldn't need to have 2 sets of EVERYTHING?Monitor 2 rooms. Id still have them on rotation so Im pulling 6 out every 4 weeks, and immediately replacing with vegged clones. Thanks in advance.


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## Lobo69 (Oct 7, 2008)

Hey,
Hopefully you remember this from a few pages back...I was having problems controlling my soldering iron top temp with the dimmer...anyway I have wired 2 up to an incandescent bulb...I think both dimmers I tried are faulty. One just turns the bulb on without an increase/decrease in intensity. The other turns on at full intensity about half way. Do you think that they are faulty? I only paid about 6 bucks each for the dimmers? I figured that they should at least work though...lol.
Thanks.


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## fitzyno1 (Oct 7, 2008)

Al, you used to use Canna's PK-13-14 in week 3 of flowering, then you changed it to 3 weeks before harvest (week 5). 
When you were using it in week 3, did the PK-13-14 cook the plants then?
Have you experimented with different strengths of PK-13-14?
I know the PK-13-14 is not organic, do you think the H202 might be reacting with the PK-13-14 in any way? 
Did you tell Canna that you use H202?


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 7, 2008)

> I've been looking for the same nuts canna can't find them if you have the link would appriciate it. Canna may be hard to get in the US. I can't offer you any suggestions as I'm not in Nth America.


You can find them here...

CANNA NUTRIENTS - CANNA AQUA - CANNA COCO - CANNAZYME


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 7, 2008)

bleezyg420 said:


> I have a question, your inbox is totally full & probably always is . So maybe you will see this and get back with a answer. I have 2 600's. is there any advantages to having 2 flower rooms. I have a veg/mother room aswell so I would be harvesting every month with 2 flower rooms but . Heres the ?? Wouldn't it be more sufficient to but the 600's together in 1 flower room, and just flower all plants combined from both rooms at once? Then I wouldn't need to have 2 sets of EVERYTHING?Monitor 2 rooms. Id still have them on rotation so Im pulling 6 out every 4 weeks, and immediately replacing with vegged clones. Thanks in advance.


The only way you would need 2 flower rooms would be if you wanted to germinate a strain or something like that.

If you do not have to make 2 grow rooms for a reason save yourself the trouble and $$.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 7, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> Al, you used to use Canna's PK-13-14 in week 3 of flowering, then you changed it to 3 weeks before harvest (week 5).
> When you were using it in week 3, did the PK-13-14 cook the plants then?


Now you're going to tax my memory. It must have, but I can't recall offhand how badly. 


> Have you experimented with different strengths of PK-13-14?


yeah, I started with the jug label recommendation of 2ml/L, reduced to 1ml/L, still cooking them, then 0.5ml/L, when I stopped using the stuff until I could get some clarity from Canna. 


> I know the PK-13-14 is not organic, do you think the H202 might be reacting with the PK-13-14 in any way?


No, and precisely because it is not organic do I think there's no problem with H2O2 & PK. If there were a reaction between PK & H2O2, there'd also be a reaction with Canna Flores, which doesn't appear to be the case. 


> Did you tell Canna that you use H202?


Sure did.


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## bleezyg420 (Oct 7, 2008)

bleezyg420 said:


> I have a question, your inbox is totally full & probably always is . So maybe you will see this and get back with a answer. I have 2 600's. is there any advantages to having 2 flower rooms. I have a veg/mother room aswell so I would be harvesting every month with 2 flower rooms but . Heres the ?? Wouldn't it be more sufficient to but the 600's together in 1 flower room, and just flower all plants combined from both rooms at once? Then I wouldn't need to have 2 sets of EVERYTHING?Monitor 2 rooms. Id still have them on rotation so Im pulling 6 out every 4 weeks, and immediately replacing with vegged clones. Thanks in advance.


could ya help?


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## GypsyBush (Oct 8, 2008)

Hi Al... 

Hope all is well down under...

So, I have been laughed at; but I thought that when a Cannabis plant is sexually mature, the branches are no longer side by side, but alternated...

Any relationship there?

Thanks!

Gypsy...


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *bleezyg420* https://www.rollitup.org/94811-al-b-faqt-147.html#post1433803
> I have a question, your inbox is totally full & probably always is . So maybe you will see this and get back with a answer. I have 2 600's. is there any advantages to having 2 flower rooms. I have a veg/mother room aswell so I would be harvesting every month with 2 flower rooms but . Heres the ?? Wouldn't it be more sufficient to but the 600's together in 1 flower room, and just flower all plants combined from both rooms at once?


You only need one flowering area. Can't see any benefit in having more than one. 

If you already have two 600HPS, use 'em, but I'd prefer a single 1000 in a cooltube. A 1000 makes about 165,000 lumens from about 1100W out of the AC mains, 600s make about 95,000 from about 650-670W. 



GypsyBush said:


> Hope all is well down under...


tis, thanks for asking. 



> I thought that when a Cannabis plant is sexually mature, the branches are no longer side by side, but alternated...
> 
> Any relationship there?


None that I know of. Sexual maturity is indicated by the presence of preflowers at the nodes.


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## ldnsharkkid (Oct 8, 2008)

Hi Al, sorry to bother you again just a quick question, i am about to put my rockwool cubes in clay pebbles 1/2" above flood level as you said but how do i handwater for a coupla days without soaking the rockwool cubes? Any advice is appreciated, thanks


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 8, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 700 scale? 500 scale? Hm?


Taken from the guide book that comes with a bluelab meter



> What's the difference? The ppm 500 scale is based on measuring the KCI or potassium chloride content of a solution. The ppm 700 is based on measuring the NaCl or sodium chloride content of a solution. individual nutrient ions have different electrical effects! The true ppm of a solution can only be determined by a chemical analysis, ppm cannot be accurately measured by a CF or EC meter. They are present on Bluelab products as a converstion guide only. The conversion is as follows.
> 
> 2.4 EC x 500 = 1200ppm (500 scale) or 1200ppm / 500 = 2.4EC
> 2.4 EC x 700 = 1680ppm (700 scale) or 1680ppm / 700 = 2.4 EC
> ...


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 8, 2008)

Well, thanks Bluelab... for making things clear as mud.


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 8, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Well, thanks Bluelab... for making things clear as mud.


I took a reading of my plain water that was .5 EC which is either 250 on the 500 scale or 350 on the 700 scale :/

The fact that you set your PPM @ 1400 does not help with that...

HOWEVER!!

Since we are using "Almost" the same nutes I am going to do a test and put 3.6 ml per L of parts A&B into solution and measure the PPM that results. That should tell me which scale you are operating off of :]


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## Return of the Spork (Oct 8, 2008)

Well I noticed all of the ppm/EC on the AdvancedNutrient website calculator show they are using a 700 scale. And unless you got your 1400ppm number from your own testing, it is a bit convenient to be spot on 2.0 EC on the 700 scale so that is probably what you have and is probably what most ppl measure by. 

I just do a (5/7) conversion factor on any ppm the AN site shows to figure out what I need. Seems to be EC is the baseline.

Anyways, reason I was asking was to try to figure out how high I should go on nutes vs how high AN says to go. I know you use a different kind but was trying to use your ppm as a baseline.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 8, 2008)

NLXSK1 said:


> Since we are using "Almost" the same nutes I am going to do a test and put 3.6 ml per L of parts A&B into solution and measure the PPM that results. That should tell me which scale you are operating off of :]


Just so you know, my tapwater (MOST of the time) is <140ppm, since it will not usually cause an indication on the Truncheon. Once in a while, it'll light the first LED on the scale (140-200ppm? I'd have to go look at the thing). 

This is from an email I got from Canna the other day:



> CANNA recommends running no more than 2.2 EC. (1540 ppm)


Canna also have corrected me on how to handle tapwater with a high EC; they say to limit the TDS EC to 1540ppm, inclusive of tapwater EC.


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## KidCreole (Oct 8, 2008)

hey al, hows life mate? i have a question. i threw a seed out one day not really expectin much and lo and behold, a sprout shot thru! my question is that i think it's grounded in SAND. ive done soil indoor and outdoor, but never sand outdoors? should i be expecting anything different?


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 8, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Just so you know, my tapwater (MOST of the time) is <140ppm, since it will not usually cause an indication on the Truncheon. Once in a while, it'll light the first LED on the scale (140-200ppm? I'd have to go look at the thing).
> 
> This is from an email I got from Canna the other day:
> 
> ...


That means that Canna is using the ECx700 scale as 2.2EC = 1540ppm on that scale and only 1100 ppm on the ECx500 scale.

I will bet the multiple scale conversions for PPM cause people trouble all the time


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## bleezyg420 (Oct 8, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You only need one flowering area. Can't see any benefit in having more than one.
> 
> If you already have two 600HPS, use 'em, but I'd prefer a single 1000 in a cooltube. A 1000 makes about 165,000 lumens from about 1100W out of the AC mains, 600s make about 95,000 from about 650-670W.
> 
> ...


Yea thanks for the help. Yea I already have 2 sun systems, both are hooked up to a 6 in vortex. Are cool tubes alot cooler and glass shield'd hoods?


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## HATCH (Oct 8, 2008)

Hey!!!!~~I've Been Looking & Looking & Even Looking???????

Did I Miss It???? Did You Post Them On Another Community???

Were Are The Pic.'s AL B.????~~Later~~~Hatch~~~


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 8, 2008)

KidCreole said:


> should i be expecting anything different?


Yep, it won't last long in sand. Sand saturates easily but once fully dry may become water repellent. It would not make a good hydroponic medium. Sand also, of course, has no nutrients. 

Transplant the thing into some good quality, loose, friable potting soil ASAP.


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## ldnsharkkid (Oct 8, 2008)

Hey al, did you see my question about handwatering freshly transferred plants into the flood table?? Sorry to bother you its just im in the process right now lol........only if you dont mind


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## bleezyg420 (Oct 8, 2008)

ldnsharkkid said:


> Hey al, did you see my question about handwatering freshly transferred plants into the flood table?? Sorry to bother you its just im in the process right now lol........only if you dont mind


I hand water vegging clones in a flood table, make sure you have your drainage connected and youll be fine. D


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 8, 2008)

bleezyg420 said:


> Yea thanks for the help. Yea I already have 2 sun systems, both are hooked up to a 6 in vortex.


I don't know what a vortex is- is that a brand name? 



> Are cool tubes alot cooler and glass shield'd hoods?


 Air cooled hoods don't flow air as well as a cooltube; their metal bodies can heat up from radiant IR as well, allowing some lamp heat to convect into the room's airmass, defeating the purpose. If your hood remains cool enough to lay your hand on & leave it, it should be working fairly well, though. 



Cooltubes with a sufficiently sized blower will always remain cool enough to lay your hand on even with a fully warmed 1000. 

 

I have two 1000HPS in series cooltubes, being driven by a 150mm axial blower rated about 200CFM. 

Each 1000 causes the air passing it to rise by 6C. So, if the cooltube intake air is 18C, the air leaving the first tube is 24C and that leaving the 2nd is 30C. The surface temp of the aluminium range-hood flexiduct leading away from the 2nd cooltube gets a little warmer than I'd like (about 28C, but the air in the duct is about 30C). If the surface of the duct is appreciably warmer than the grow room airmass (which is always 25C +/- 1C), heat will convect out of the duct and into the growroom airmass. I am considering insulating that section leading out of the room from the 2nd tube with some sort of foil-backed fibreglas insulation sheeting to make the system more efficient. If heat leaks out through the ducting wall, it's not doing its job very well. 

Hoods usually do not employ an efficient reflector shape. 







A double parabola is ideal. The usual coffin shaped 'Euro hood' as they are commonly called tend to reflect some light straight back at the lamp tube. All light hitting a batwing ref is headed for the plants.

 

With my handy-dandy tin snips, I've cut the internal reflectors out of my cooltubes and fitted the cooltubes to Adjust-A-Wing batwing refs. 



ldnsharkkid said:


> Hey al, did you see my question about handwatering freshly transferred plants into the flood table?? Sorry to bother you its just im in the process right now lol........only if you dont mind


huh. I saw that and I (_*thought*_ I) responded to it. The reply has gone missing.. 

Once more with feeling... 



ldnsharkkid said:


> Hi Al, sorry to bother you again just a quick question, i am about to put my rockwool cubes in clay pebbles 1/2" above flood level as you said but how do i handwater for a coupla days without soaking the rockwool cubes? Any advice is appreciated, thanks


A spray bottle set to shoot a straight stream would do pretty well. Maybe an old dish soap or water bottle would do. Anything which will allow you to precisely squirt a bit of water to just dampen the pellets will do. 



HATCH said:


> Were Are The Pic.'s AL B.????~~Later~~~Hatch~~~


I haven't posted any. Will if I can.


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## bleezyg420 (Oct 8, 2008)

Id rep that, but I cant. Your a fucking genius man. I wish I didnt already purchase these 600's, but I got hell of a deal at $80 per light. I can rest my hand on the glass but then again its only a 600. How much do those adjust bat wings cost? I probably could sell these hoods, keep the fixtures and get some tubes. Whats the average cost on a cool tube. I could see how its way more efficient, its like a small 18' in Bong Load vers a 6 Footer. Same with the reflection of those batwings vs my sun system hood.


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## iloveit (Oct 8, 2008)

Calling Al B Fuct
I repeat calling Al B Fuct
I desperately need your help on a silly problem

Heres the problem: After germinating my Bluberry seeds I place them in presoaked rockwool (PH at 5. and immediately switch on the lights (timer on 12/6) I was watering when the RW seemed dry (approx 3 times a day). With the temp at 27C & humidity at 80 - 90% I check every day to see the changes BUT AFTER A WEEK I GOT IMPATIENT AND TOOK A CLOSER LOOK & THE SEED HAD NOT GROWN AT ALL IT WAS IN THE SAME POSITION WHEN I PLANTED IT (THE TAPROOT WAS THE SAME).

I know its had to tell what Im doing wrong without any pics & I understand that this is a ridiculous problem but I thought Id ask for advise as my next seed has germinated and Im currently presoaking my RW & Ive been in this situation twice already Im going to feel heart broken if I have to bin the seeds for the 3rd time. I need for this grow to be successful because Im running out of seeds please help, Any idea what Im doing wrong?


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## ldnsharkkid (Oct 8, 2008)

Thanks for that al i will do that for a few days to establish some decent root growth and then start the flooding....

It was proper weird the photo you posted a coupla posts ago is exactly the same as the photo i was reading in ur other closed thread "harvest every 2 weeks" on page 177, been taking me a week 2 read it, when i just refreshed both the pages and saw the same pics had to double check i hadnt been readin the same thread twice lol, im pretty stoned


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## Lobo69 (Oct 8, 2008)

Sorry to bug you, but did you miss this?



> Hey,
> Hopefully you remember this from a few pages back...I was having problems controlling my soldering iron top temp with the dimmer...anyway I have wired 2 up to an incandescent bulb...I think both dimmers I tried are faulty. One just turns the bulb on without an increase/decrease in intensity. The other turns on at full intensity about half way. Do you think that they are faulty? I only paid about 6 bucks each for the dimmers? I figured that they should at least work though...lol.
> Thanks.


----------



## NLXSK1 (Oct 8, 2008)

I put 61ml of solutions A&B into 20L of water and the PPM went to exactly 1400...

My PH starts out at 8.2 and requires a lot more adjustment. That is a regional issue however.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 9, 2008)

bleezyg420 said:


> Id rep that, but I cant. Your a fucking genius man. I wish I didnt already purchase these 600's, but I got hell of a deal at $80 per light. I can rest my hand on the glass but then again its only a 600.


Does sound like a very good price. If the hoods can keep their cooling air flow separate from the grow rom airmass (with inlet and exhaust ducting) and remain cool to the touch, they should work pretty well.


> How much do those adjust bat wings cost?


Far too much! Prices vary, but I've seen them from $160-200/ea.


> Whats the average cost on a cool tube.


Around $60-70.



iloveit said:


> Any idea what Im doing wrong?


 How wet are you leaving the cubes after you are waternig them? They must not be left saturated. Without a pic, I can't really make any better guesses.



Lobo69 said:


> Sorry to bug you, but did you miss this?


 I must have! Sorry. 



Lobo69 said:


> Hey,
> Do you think that they are faulty? I only paid about 6 bucks each for the dimmers? I figured that they should at least work though...lol.


Yes, I do think they're faulty. You might, however, just for curiosity's sake, try them with a 100W light globe and see if they behave the same as with a 25-40W lamp.



NLXSK1 said:


> I put 61ml of solutions A&B into 20L of water and the PPM went to exactly 1400...


OK, I hope that sorts out the EC scale question. 



> My PH starts out at 8.2 and requires a lot more adjustment. That is a regional issue however.


My pH is 8.5 at present. When I mix for 1400 with Canna Flores, I get a pH of about 6.3. Takes about 10-12ml of the pHDown sauce I have to shift that 125L @ 6.3 to 5.8.


----------



## bleezyg420 (Oct 9, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Does sound like a very good price. If the hoods can keep their cooling air flow separate from the grow rom airmass (with inlet and exhaust ducting) and remain cool to the touch, they should work pretty well. Far too much! Prices vary, but I've seen them from $160-200/ea.Around $60-70.


+ rep, Your the man. My hoods dont have their own inlet. They have vents on top of the hood, so they draw warm air out. Im using hydro huts Xl(Flower), L(veg) I have temps 75-77 and I can touch the glass lens, its warm but Im able to hold my hand there. One day I want some of those bat wings and cool tube setup's with some 1000's. Your grow room is candy to my eyes. I love clean tidy shit and you have that dialed in. I Cant wait till harvest so I can dedicate my roommates room as my grow room and kick him out. Good luck thanks again for the great help.


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## holmes (Oct 9, 2008)

Hello Al
how hot would it get in a closed room ( no in or out vents) using
two 1000w with adjust a wing reflectors, using the super spreaders.
Could supplemting CO2 justify the temperature?, ive read that temps up to 85*F will work well high concentrations of co2
O yeah, and lets say that the area of this room is approximatly 200 sq ft


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 9, 2008)

bleezyg420 said:


> + rep, Your the man. My hoods dont have their own inlet. They have vents on top of the hood, so they draw warm air out.
> Im using hydro huts Xl(Flower), L(veg) I have temps 75-77 and I can touch the glass lens, its warm but Im able to hold my hand there.


Your temps are moderating rather well, but when air cooled lighting sources its cooling air from inside the room airmass, room airmass temp stability can suffer. 

 

With cooltubes, we can have a fully separate ventilation system for the room airmass and the lighting, so a thermostat can control the intake/exhaust blowers, while the lighting has a constant flow of air via its own blower. 

If your air cooled lighting has no inlet duct, the fan must be on the outlet, placing the fan motor in the warm air stream. It's better for the fan motor's longer term reliability to push air into the lighting so the fan's motor is running in a cool air stream.



> One day I want some of those bat wings and cool tube setup's with some 1000's.


Works pretty well for me.


> Your grow room is candy to my eyes. I love clean tidy shit and you have that dialed in.


thanks for that; I aim to keep my shit tidy. 


> I Cant wait till harvest so I can dedicate my roommates room as my grow room and kick him out.


I absolutely SNORTED when I read that.  You ratbag.


> Good luck thanks again for the great help.


no worries. 



holmes said:


> Hello Al
> how hot would it get in a closed room ( no in or out vents) using
> two 1000w with adjust a wing reflectors, using the super spreaders.


it would be well in excess of 40-45C inside of 1 hour. Forget it. You'll need either aircon or ventilation. You will not have a successful grow with 2kW in an unventilated space.


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## holmes (Oct 9, 2008)

how about with cool tubes, no aircon


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## iloveit (Oct 9, 2008)

As requested pics of the RW (seed is germinated and planted in RW which is visible in pic) which Im now watering twice a day (I water from the top of the RW with a measuring syringe, when water is shown in excess at the bottom of the RW I stop, when I cant feel moisture on the top of the RW I water. What you think? 

Also is it permissable to have the RW holes that wide and open for the seed to be in direct light like that shown in the pic (the seeds are 1/2 inch below the surface).

If only I can make it through this Ill be over the moon. Please Al help!


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 9, 2008)

holmes said:


> how about with cool tubes, no aircon


 
Cooltubes must be able to source cooling air from outside the grow room airmass and dump it outside it as well. 

 

If you can establish the airflow necessary for cooltubes, you will also be able to ventilate the room. 



iloveit said:


> As requested pics of the RW (seed is germinated and planted in RW which is visible in pic)


So, you germed your seed, got a roughly 1/4" long taproot out of the seed and planted it in the holes in the RW, right?



> which Im now watering twice a day (I water from the top of the RW with a measuring syringe, when water is shown in excess at the bottom of the RW I stop, when I cant feel moisture on the top of the RW I water. What you think?


WAY too wet. No wonder nothing's happening. The cube must only be damp, never wet or saturated. No way a seedling will take enough water out of the cube to justify watering 2x/day. For this situation, cubes on a heat mat (you DO have a heat mat, right?) will only need about 5-10ml of water/day, on the very high and outside... They may not need water every day. 



> Also is it permissable to have the RW holes that wide and open for the seed to be in direct light like that shown in the pic (the seeds are 1/2 inch below the surface).


 yep, fine. 

However, you're not growing an aquatic plant and don't need to give anywhere near as much water as you are. You should not be able to shake any excess water out of the cube- it must be damp, not wet or saturated.


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## holmes (Oct 9, 2008)

> Cooltubes must be able to source cooling air from outside the grow room airmass and dump it outside it as well.


yes of course


> If you can establish the airflow necessary for cooltubes, you will also be able to ventilate the room.


i am trying to figure out if it is at all possible to avoid it.
I am sure your familiar with the closed room system of growing, some co2 and humidity and temp control, and your good.
Basically, what i am trying to accomplish is this, with temperature range of 65-85*F, depending on the season ( not in a given week or month, please dont chew my head off)
winter months no aircon needed, if the tubes are done very well as you have done, i think temps should be acceptable. There is no reason why the duct work would interfere with the closed environment.
Now summer months there might be no way around it but to use aircon
Final request (for now), have you or better yet would you, post something on how you put the batwing/cool tube fixture together. Do you find that the spreader component is lacking now that you dont have it, or could you put it back if you could.
I know i ask a lot of questions, but it is much appreciated. Ive been wanting to give you rep points, but i dont know how.


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 9, 2008)

> I know i ask a lot of questions, but it is much appreciated. Ive been wanting to give you rep points, but i dont know how.


Click the silver scale to the top right of the posts on one that AL has written and it will allow you to rep him or anyone that writes a post.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 9, 2008)

holmes said:


> i am trying to figure out if it is at all possible to avoid it.


You will either need an aircon unit or you will need to ventilate the space, it's that simple- no way around having one or the other. 

I don't know whether you don't believe me or you're trying to fool yourself, but if you set up an unventilated/un-airconditioned op with 2kW of light, you won't grow plants in it very well nor for very long. It will hit 40-45C pretty easily. You will sink a lot of dough into an op that won't work. 

Now, if you want to go ahead and set the thing up as you suggest, without ventilation or aircon, go right ahead. I don't have to jump off a cliff to prove I can't fly, but that may not be the case for everyone... 



> Final request (for now), have you or better yet would you, post something on how you put the batwing/cool tube fixture together.


2 screws through the ref into the cooltube. 



> Do you find that the spreader component is lacking now that you dont have it, or could you put it back if you could.


The 'spreader' was really more a 'shade' than anything else. It blocked about half the light to the plants nearest the lamp tube. I always thought it was of dubious benefit, but I was given a pair to try out, and so I did. They did nothing for temp control. I would not use them again, with or without cooltubes.

Thanks for the suggestion of rep points, but if you can't work it out, I'm not fussed, I don't play that game too much myself.


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## iloveit (Oct 9, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Cooltubes must be able to source cooling air from outside the grow room airmass and dump it outside it as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep I have germed and placed in RW.
Yep I have a heated propagator with a mat in it.
At first I was worried that the seed would die if it had got to dry due to the heat but from now Ill make sure the RW is only damp.

I hope sometime you can checkout my grow when Im not in the noobi stages and hear your words of wisdom.

Man Im happy to hear from you thanks so much Id take a bullet for you in the ass LOL.

As alway you da man!

Oh I almost forgot is it ok to have the lights on 24/7 for these seeds?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 9, 2008)

iloveit said:


> Yep I have germed and placed in RW.
> Yep I have a heated propagator with a mat in it.
> At first I was worried that the seed would die if it had got to dry due to the heat but from now Ill make sure the RW is only damp.


You should not be able to shake any water out of a cube which is just damp. 

If you were using the same size and type of cubes I am, I could give you very precise watering information, but your cubes are a bit different. I'm using plastic wrapped 40mm cubes. They weigh 5g dry and 20-25g when just damp. When using these for cloning in my clonebox with 30C heatmat and thermostatic control to 30C, when supporting a rather large cutting, these cubes need about 8-10ml of water 2x/day. The plastic wrap slows down evaporation from the cube. 

Your cubes appear to be smaller, perhaps 25mm and unwrapped. They ought to weigh about 15-18g when just damp. The lack of wrapping may cause them to dry out faster than my cubes, but you are trying to raise seedlings, not clones, which need a lot more water by comparison. I would use a syringe to give your cubes about 10ml of water, check to be sure that you can not shake any water out with a snap of the wrist (like flicking a yoyo). Put them on the heatmat and check them about every 6h until you get an idea of when 50% of the water weight is gone. 

You should be using H2O2, 50% grade at 1ml/L in your watering solution. 



> Man Im happy to hear from you thanks so much Id take a bullet for you in the ass LOL.
> 
> As alway you da man!


well, um, thanks for that, but I sure wouldn't take a bullet in the ass for me. 

'Thanks Al' is plenty, mkay?



> Oh I almost forgot is it ok to have the lights on 24/7 for these seeds?


yep, fine.


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## bleezyg420 (Oct 9, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Your temps are moderating rather well, but when air cooled lighting sources its cooling air from inside the room airmass, room airmass temp stability can suffer.


Whats the most affordable brand inline or blower fan that you've came across and what numbers should I be looking for (cfm)? My hoods arnt as efficient as a tube so obviously Id need a little extra juice. Ill have to cut 4 in holes in my hoods, since they only came with one. That way Ill be able to run a sparate cooling system for the lights, which Ive been wanting for some time now. An addition of cooltubes down the line, that juice will make it ever more efficient. That way I can have a thermostat running my fans eliminating temperature fluctuations due to changing day/night temps. 
Thanks once again you magical marijuana wizard.
(ps, is it better to blow, or suck air threw a scrubber & cool tubes series? Your diagram shows blowing? Any reasons.)


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 9, 2008)

bleezyg420 said:


> Whats the most affordable brand inline or blower fan that you've came across and what numbers should I be looking for (cfm)? My hoods arnt as efficient as a tube so obviously Id need a little extra juice. Ill have to cut 4 in holes in my hoods, since they only came with one. That way Ill be able to run a sparate cooling system for the lights, which Ive been wanting for some time now. An addition of cooltubes down the line, that juice will make it ever more efficient. That way I can have a thermostat running my fans eliminating temperature fluctuations due to changing day/night temps.
> Thanks once again you magical marijuana wizard.
> (ps, is it better to blow, or suck air threw a scrubber or cool tubes series? Your diagram shows blowing? Any reasons.)


Unless it is attached to a filter - blow, dont suck...

Keeps the fan cooler...


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## bleezyg420 (Oct 9, 2008)

exhaust has a carbon filter, and the inline hoods would be free flowing.


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## iloveit (Oct 9, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You should not be able to shake any water out of a cube which is just damp.
> 
> If you were using the same size and type of cubes I am, I could give you very precise watering information, but your cubes are a bit different. I'm using plastic wrapped 40mm cubes. They weigh 5g dry and 20-25g when just damp. When using these for cloning in my clonebox with 30C heatmat and thermostatic control to 30C, when supporting a rather large cutting, these cubes need about 8-10ml of water 2x/day. The plastic wrap slows down evaporation from the cube.
> 
> ...



Thanks again Al I think Ive got the idea now of how the environment for the seeds should be Ill do exactly as youve instructed. About the H2O2 its difficult to purchase this in U.K., we had a discussion about this in a recent post (https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/110660-u-k-growers-where-can-2.html)

Since then Ive purchased H2O2 at the strength of 17.5% its the highest I could find from the web (Liquid Oxygen h2o2 - Hydrohobby Hydroponics UK)

But is it ok to use this for the seeds at this stage?
And how much?


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## fitzyno1 (Oct 9, 2008)

iloveit said:


> Since then Ive purchased H2O2 at the strength of 17.5% its the highest I could find from the web (Liquid Oxygen h2o2 - Hydrohobby Hydroponics UK)


If you email this guy Philip at [email protected] , he will sell you big 25 litre drums of 35% grade for £54 plus vat. I paid via bank transfer, and had the drum in 2 days. I would recommend this company. I used to use that 17.5%. I used to buy it through Ebay, but this 25L drum works out far far cheaper.

Al, sorry for answering questions on your thread, i thought i'd like to help this guy out.


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## fitzyno1 (Oct 9, 2008)

I forgot to add that i'm from the UK as well


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 9, 2008)

bleezyg420 said:


> Whats the most affordable brand inline or blower fan that you've came across and what numbers should I be looking for (cfm)?


 You need a 150mm blower that delivers about 200CFM. Prices vary, shop around. The 'duct fans' as found at hdwe stores are cheap but not terribly efficient nor durable due to cheap stamped impeller blades and sleeve-bearing motors. Look for fans with ball-bearing motors. 


> My hoods arnt as efficient as a tube so obviously Id need a little extra juice. Ill have to cut 4 in holes in my hoods


 I'd use 6" (150mm) fans & ducting instead of 4" (100mm). 



> (ps, is it better to blow, or suck air threw a scrubber & cool tubes series? Your diagram shows blowing? Any reasons.)


 yep, as I said a page back...



Al B. Fuct said:


> If your air cooled lighting has no inlet duct, the fan must be on the outlet, placing the fan motor in the warm air stream. It's better for the fan motor's longer term reliability to push air into the lighting so the fan's motor is running in a cool air stream.





bleezyg420 said:


> exhaust has a carbon filter, and the inline hoods would be free flowing.


 The filter will need a centrifugal blower. Axials don't do well pushing into a high static pressure load caused by obstructions. Pressure leaks backward through the gaps between an axial's impeller blades. You will not get anywhere near an axial's CFM rating if it is pushing into a high static pressure. Centrifs are designed to develop some pressurejust for the purpose of filters and long ducts, or those with more tahn a couple 90 deg bends.



iloveit said:


> About the H2O2


see fitzy's comment (thanks fitzy.  )


> But is it ok to use this for the seeds at this stage?
> And how much?


yes, fine to use. Use the 35% grade at 1.7ml/L. Keep a bucket of watering soln, dose the soln with H2O2 when filling the bucket and again every 3-4 days to keep it pathogen free. 



fitzyno1 said:


> i thought i'd like to help this guy out.


Helps if you know which way he came in. 

Thanks for the local availability data.


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## ldnsharkkid (Oct 10, 2008)

Hey Al, i got my flood and drain system yesterday an put it together if u fancy commenting on it have a look at my journal. I handwatered yesterday about 4 hours before lights off and i also gave them a little squirt this morning about an hour into lights on.

Should i be floodig as well as handwatering to get some moisture i there?? And if so 3x during lights o sound ok to start with??

Also, im gonna do my tank of sauce in a bit how much nutes u think i should start off with?? I was thinikin bout 0.4ec which is about 600ppm, does this sound ok???

Also al if u dont mind lending your opinion how do i wire up this primair fan controller?? I know how to wire stuff up i just dont know how to get to the wiring, i think i just need to unscrew the connector on the box but i dont wanna break it, any ideas??







Whe u get a min al if you could try and assist me,thanks


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## iloveit (Oct 10, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> If you email this guy Philip at [email protected] , he will sell you big 25 litre drums of 35% grade for £54 plus vat. I paid via bank transfer, and had the drum in 2 days. I would recommend this company. I used to use that 17.5%. I used to buy it through Ebay, but this 25L drum works out far far cheaper.
> 
> Al, sorry for answering questions on your thread, i thought i'd like to help this guy out.


Ive been looking for a higher concentrate and have been unsucessful in doing so until now thanks a mil, sales are gonna be through the roof for Philip now that its mentioned on RIU.

By the way now that I already have the 17.5% H2O2 I just want to finish it off, how many ml per Litre did you use in your grow?

Cheers mate.


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## iloveit (Oct 10, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You need a 150mm blower that delivers about 200CFM. Prices vary, shop around. The 'duct fans' as found at hdwe stores are cheap but not terribly efficient nor durable due to cheap stamped impeller blades and sleeve-bearing motors. Look for fans with ball-bearing motors.
> 
> 
> I'd use 6" (150mm) fans & ducting instead of 4" (100mm).
> ...



Nice one Al Ill let you know how it goes cheers.


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## Dugout (Oct 10, 2008)

Hey Al, I hope this message finds you doing well. As ussual I am having a problem that I think I know the answer to. You know me your royal pain in the ass. My seedlings have been doing well until yesterday when I noticed some small brown spots on one of the leaves actually I think it is on 2 leaves on the same plant the other one looks to be ok. I think I have been over watering and that is what has caused this problem so I transfered them to my hydro unit and have not yet turned on the water to them. I will tell you that the roots are nice and white but the cubes are really moist so I am waiting till they dry out to turn on water I have them now under my haylide bulb so hopefully it won't take long for them too dry out will check them every 3 hours to see how they are doing. Well have a good one bro and burn one for me the Ole Hippy DUGOUT


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## fitzyno1 (Oct 10, 2008)

iloveit said:


> sales are gonna be through the roof for Philip now that its mentioned on RIU.
> 
> By the way now that I already have the 17.5% H2O2 I just want to finish it off, how many ml per Litre did you use in your grow?
> 
> Cheers mate.


Yeah, tell Philip i sent you and the next time he might knock off a bit of commission for me LOL, only joking.

I used 3ml/L of 17.5%, i now use 1.5ml/L of 35%. The 35% H202 is very strong, it burns your hands and leaves a white residue thats hard to get off. Wear gloves!
Now that i have this 35%, i fill as if i had been ripped off by purchasing the 17.5% gear, cause it would last no time.

Al, i know you said to use 1.7ml/L, but the 1.5ml/L is easy to work out, and it's doing the job for me. It's money very well spent.


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## fred1 (Oct 10, 2008)

Hi Al, 

I am trying to figure out the ventilation for my closet grow. The cubic feet are 120 (3'x5'x8'). I am going to have a 200cfm exhaust fan at the top of the closet venting out into the attic. I don't have the ability to put a passive intake in the wall or closet door because I need the grow room to be totally stealth. I thought originally that I could just let air get sucked in under the door, but in order to control light leaks I have darkroom cloth covering the inside of the door jam, so I am pretty sure that will restrict the necessary amount of air from getting into the closet. My plan is to have an intake fan bringing air in from the outside of the house, through a vent in the attic, pulled through ducting and then down into the bottom of my closet from the top. The total length of the ducting will be 25 feet. I was thinking of getting a 170 cfm can fan, but then thought the length of the ducting would reduce the efficiency of the fan to a point that wouldn't work. I am going to be using a 400 watt hps for a 2'x3' grow area.

What cfm fan do you think I would need in order to blow air through the duct and into the closet? Would an inline can fan or squirrel cage fan be better for this? Would prefer the sound to be quiet as possible as well. I don't want to lose the vacum and have any odor leak out into the room either.


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## HAZEOHOLIC (Oct 10, 2008)

Al Thanks for the cool tube and venting diagram my question is I have a shelf above the cool tubes that I want to put the carbon filter there instead of having exposed can I still run a intake fan on the bottom of the closet and then cut a hole under the shelf can i put my exhaust fan and filter there will I still have that negative static pressure and most important will it be effective.

The cool tube fan I also need it inside the closet can I hang it with a bungee? and also would I have to connect the the other side if the cool tube to the filter also or can it vent outside worried about smell

What size res should i use have a 2x2 tray. I was reading one of your post saying your having problems with the canna nutes what nutes would you recommend me using? how high/and time should I flood the trays using perlite thanks again Al


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 10, 2008)

ldnsharkkid said:


> Hey Al, i got my flood and drain system yesterday an put it together if u fancy commenting on it have a look at my journal.


I had a look; don't use netpots in this system. Replace them with standard solid wall pots with drain holes, as you might use for soil. 



> Should i be floodig as well as handwatering to get some moisture i there?? And if so 3x during lights o sound ok to start with??


 If the RW cubes with roots poking out of their bottoms are 1/2" above the flood level, the roots will find the damp pellets with no problems.

I'd flood 5x/lights-on initially, increasing to every 2h, for as long as it takes to raise the flood level to the overflow, avoiding watering in the last 2h of lights-on unless the plants are so large that they will wilt without being watered in the last 2h.



> 600ppm, does this sound ok???


yep, fine.



> Also al if u dont mind lending your opinion how do i wire up this primair fan controller?? I know how to wire stuff up i just dont know how to get to the wiring, i think i just need to unscrew the connector on the box but i dont wanna break it, any ideas??


your guess is as good as mine. Without having it in front of me, I can't really tell you anything you don't already know. Looks like strain reliefs instead of connectors.



iloveit said:


> I already have the 17.5% H2O2 I just want to finish it off, how many ml per Litre


 Use the 17.5% H2O2 at 3.4ml/L.



Dugout said:


> I noticed some small brown spots on one of the leaves


 got pix?



fitzyno1 said:


> it burns your hands and leaves a white residue thats hard to get off. Wear gloves!


You betcha- and eye protection, too. H2O2 will give you a nasty but temporary burn to skin but could do much worse to your eyes. 

The white 'residue' from an H2O2 burn isn't actually a residue. It's oxygen bubbles being formed in the upper layers of the epidermis. It goes away by itself when all the H2O2 is completely reacted with any organic matter it has encountered. If you do get some full strength H2O2 on your skin, flush the area with plain water quickly to reduce the discomfort. 



> Al, i know you said to use 1.7ml/L, but the 1.5ml/L is easy to work out, and it's doing the job for me. It's money very well spent.


 If that rate works, by all means, use it. 



fred1 said:


> I am pretty sure that will restrict the necessary amount of air from getting into the closet.


I'm pretty sure you're right.



> My plan is to have an intake fan bringing air in from the outside of the house, through a vent in the attic, pulled through ducting and then down into the bottom of my closet from the top. The total length of the ducting will be 25 feet. I was thinking of getting a 170 cfm can fan, but then thought the length of the ducting would reduce the efficiency of the fan to a point that wouldn't work.


If your exhaust is a centrifugal, this should work fine when the door is closed. The intake blower will be assisted by the low pressure condition created in the room by the centrif exhaust.



HAZEOHOLIC said:


> my question is I have a shelf above the cool tubes that I want to put the carbon filter there instead of having exposed can I still run a intake fan on the bottom of the closet and then cut a hole under the shelf can i put my exhaust fan and filter there will I still have that negative static pressure and most important will it be effective.


Sorry, you want to put the exhaust and carbon filter under the grow? I don't quite understand what you're saying. 



> The cool tube fan I also need it inside the closet can I hang it with a bungee?


sure.


> and also would I have to connect the the other side if the cool tube to the filter also or can it vent outside worried about smell


If the cooltube is sourcing 'unscented' air from outside the room, there's no need for filtration on the cooltube duct line.



> What size res should i use have a 2x2 tray.


about 5L per plant.


> I was reading one of your post saying your having problems with the canna nutes


No problem with the Canna nutes per se; I _am_ having trouble with Canna's PK-13-14 additive and have sought their counsel on dosage.


> what nutes would you recommend me using?


Canna.


> how high/and time should I flood the trays using perlite


to within 1/2" of the bottom of RW cubes if used for cloning.The flood duration should only be long enough to raise the flood level to the overflow, then shut the pump off.


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## Dugout (Oct 10, 2008)

Hey Al sorry no pics don't have a camera yet but they are small brown spots smaller than a pin head and just a couple so far. Do you think it might be the water I know I have over watered hopefully putting them in hydro unit without water till the rockwool cube dries out then turn my drip system on I know you don't like them but it is all I have for now. Anyway I don't know wether you can help or have suggestions without pictures but I thought you might have some ideas or suggestions. Anyway thanks a lot for everything Bro and burn one for me The Ole Hippy DUGOUT


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## Chumlie (Oct 10, 2008)

What up Al. Hey, if you don't mind can you hook me up with the vaporizer link...Thanxs.


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## daddychrisg (Oct 10, 2008)

Still killin it Al, you have the patience of a rock....Or a saint, no a rock will do..Keep up the community service Al, you are the man..or the rock..a speaking rock, that is a rock that can speak. Ok I'm done here.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 10, 2008)

Dugout said:


> Hey Al sorry no pics don't have a camera yet but they are small brown spots smaller than a pin head and just a couple so far. Do you think it might be the water


 Could be, could be other things too, just can't tell without pix, sorry, 



Chumlie said:


> What up Al. Hey, if you don't mind can you hook me up with the vaporizer link...Thanxs.


There's no thread for that one, just a post about it:

https://www.rollitup.org/do-yourself/12079-homemade-vaporizer.html#post119569



daddychrisg said:


> Still killin it Al, you have the patience of a rock....Or a saint, no a rock will do..Keep up the community service Al, you are the man..or the rock..a speaking rock, that is a rock that can speak. Ok I'm done here.


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## Chumlie (Oct 10, 2008)

Its cool...Thanks again.


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## Chumlie (Oct 10, 2008)

Hey I recently made one out of a coffee mug and the shit taste funny. I was thinking how to replace the metal bowl with a glass one. Any ideas on how to heat up the glass bowl?


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## iloveit (Oct 10, 2008)

Thank you uncle Al


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## SpruceZeus (Oct 10, 2008)

Hey Al,
Can you please tell me everything you've said in this thread so far. It really seems like a big hassle for me to read it when i can just get you to tell me all about it.
seriously though, good on you for being so damn patient. I would probably kill someone the 93rd time i got asked how high to flood my table\what nutes to use\how to hide this all from my mom. 
You ever find your way to Canada i'll take good care of you.
-Zeus


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## BigBudBalls (Oct 10, 2008)

SpruceZeus said:


> Hey Al,
> Can you please tell me everything you've said in this thread so far. It really seems like a big hassle for me to read it when i can just get you to tell me all about it.
> seriously though, good on you for being so damn patient. I would probably kill someone the 93rd time i got asked how high to flood my table\what nutes to use\how to hide this all from my mom.
> You ever find your way to Canada i'll take good care of you.
> -Zeus



Al, I was *just* thinking about this.

If you start a new FAQt, one suggestion would be, is to snag the first 5-10 posts. Then edit them, from time to time for the FAQ type things. (like the venting pic that is posted often) This way the first page covers the basics. I can understand the hassle of looking through 150+ pages of a single thread.

Just a thought.


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## YaK (Oct 10, 2008)

I read this thread alot, although not entirely 

I think I read in another thread that you were collaborating with someone on doing a batwing/cool tube combo, an "AlBFuct signature series" ??

I'f you've posted an update on this, then I'm sorry, but I'm interested in getting one, I like the setup alot.

You are a very inspiring person... thanks! 

(I was going to ask about fytocel too, but I think I can find that in the harvest every two week thread)


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## ldnsharkkid (Oct 10, 2008)

Thanks for the advice again Al....i worked out the fan controller basically just undo the 4 screws on each corner and then fix in wires, bit like a plug.

I will be buying some solid pots tomorrow i did have a feeling they were the wrong ones but they came with the flood table kit so i just used em...im paying a trip to the hydro shop tomorrow gonna get myself a cooltube and an intake fan. 

Al, another quick question if you dont mind, im gonna suck air through my carbon filter and then push it through the cooltube then out the exhaust, is this ok. I dont have enough intake/extract vents for the time being but this should be ok for my 1st grow shouldnt it. Im gonna test it out tomorrow cos i think i should still be able to use my fan controller but just set a higher idle speed for the extractor fan.....what u think????


Can i also say anyone who is just joining the thread and is thinking of doing a setup like this read it fully from page 1. I have done so and my knowledge has gone from little to large without asking anything, also the "get a harvest every 2 weeks" thread, a MUST read for anyone, every aspects of growing covered. And all thanks to Al B Fuct who must be a flood and drain LEGEND.....keep up the good work


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## iloveit (Oct 10, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Cooltubes must be able to source cooling air from outside the grow room airmass and dump it outside it as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One last thing, when the time comes for watering 5-10ml would it be wise for me to pour the water directly on to the seed so it doesnt die due to dryness?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 10, 2008)

Chumlie said:


> Any ideas on how to heat up the glass bowl?


 Thermonuclear weapons? Dunno. It'd be very hard to affix a heating element to glass. If the thimble you use is stainless steel, it shouldn't flavour it.



iloveit said:


> Thank you uncle Al


 no wucking furries. 



ldnsharkkid said:


> Thanks for the advice again Al....i worked out the fan controller basically just undo the 4 screws on each corner and then fix in wires, bit like a plug.


coolio. 


> I will be buying some solid pots tomorrow i did have a feeling they were the wrong ones but they came with the flood table kit so i just used em...im paying a trip to the hydro shop tomorrow gonna get myself a cooltube and an intake fan.


 farm out, mang.  check discount shops for the plastic pots, see if they're blowing out the ones in ugly colours for cheep. 



> Al, another quick question if you dont mind, im gonna suck air through my carbon filter and then push it through the cooltube then out the exhaust, is this ok. I dont have enough intake/extract vents for the time being but this should be ok for my 1st grow shouldnt it. Im gonna test it out tomorrow


If you draw cooling air for the cooltube from the room's airmass, temp stability will suffer. The cooltube blower must run all the time that lights are on and thus cannot be run on a thermostat. The cooltube and room need separate blowers. 



> i think i should still be able to use my fan controller but just set a higher idle speed for the extractor fan.....what u think????


Yes, using the motor speed controller will be great so you can adjust the setup so the room is at negative pressure. 



> And all thanks to Al B Fuct who must be a flood and drain LEGEND.....keep up the good work


no prob. 



iloveit said:


> One last thing, when the time comes for watering 5-10ml would it be wise for me to pour the water directly on to the seed so it doesnt die due to dryness?


No- water the cubes by squirting water on the underside of the cube. Invert it & squirt away. 

Plants do this stuff by themselves without your help! New growers totally overestimate the amount of water plants should get- and kill them all the time because of it!

The seed raising medium should be damp, never wet or saturated.


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## iloveit (Oct 11, 2008)

Ok got it, thank you Al


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## kpw555 (Oct 11, 2008)

I am currently modeling my op after the harvest every two weeks method and I have a couple of questions that I hope you can help me with.


1) I have chosen perlite as a replacement for the Fytocell material due to availability in the US. I put weed block fabric in the bottom of the pot (about a six inch across by 8 inch tall with big holes in bottoms) then a few sterile rocks for weight and the rest with perlite. A rockwool cube was placed in the medium to simulate placing a  into flower. When I flooded the table the moisture never reached the rockwool even after setting overnight and a repeat flood the moisture never wicked closer than about 2 inches from the top of the medium.

Should I add some vermiculite or some other wicking type of media to this mix? Or am I wrong in thinking that the top of the media should be damp after a flood.


2) My table takes about 5 min to flood and about 10 minutes to drain are these acceptable times.

Thanks ABF for all the posting you do on this forum.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 11, 2008)

kpw555 said:


> When I flooded the table the moisture never reached the rockwool even after setting overnight and a repeat flood the moisture never wicked closer than about 2 inches from the top of the medium.


Wet the perlite thoroughly from the top before plugging a cube in it. This will start the wicking action, assuring there's water in the rootzone, but the tops will dry out. Don't top water in future, only just before plugging the cubes in. Wicking to 2" below the top is ideal. This will assure that the roots will find water but the medium tops will remain dry, preventing algae growth on the top surfaces. 


> Should I add some vermiculite or some other wicking type of media to this mix? Or am I wrong in thinking that the top of the media should be damp after a flood.


No, the media tops should remain dry. 



> 2) My table takes about 5 min to flood and about 10 minutes to drain are these acceptable times.


Yep, that's fine. 


> Thanks ABF for all the posting you do on this forum.


No worries.


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## kpw555 (Oct 11, 2008)

Awesome!! Thanks for the fast reply to my question.

I have been building this op for weeks now and I am coming into the home strech.

By home strech I mean that my beans are sprouted my op is coming together nicely and am on schedule to take some clones.

Pics will be posted so that I may show my creation off and get some feedback from the forum before the clone box or the flowering room are needed.


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## Old in the Way (Oct 11, 2008)

Hey Al,

I recently moved 4 sexually mature indica plants to flower to take up half the tray for my first batch in the flower room-these are going to be flowered under a single 1kw light. The other half the tray has 60 clones under their own 1kw light-thank god i got the 4th light. Aerocloner probs left me short on clones for my first batch, hence the cheating-Remember i have 8'x4' trays that require 120 clones every 20 days.

So the mature Indicas came from a drip set-up in the veg room being watered 5x/day at 1400ppm 5.8 ph, 1kw light, etc, etc.......

Prior to moving them I ran them under the drip for an extra hour or so. Don't ask why because i couldn't tell you.

Several hours after moving them to flower yesterday they were watered 1x for 15 minutes about 2 hours before lights off.

When double checking the room just before lights off they showed symptoms of being severely overwatered. 

I set the timer to skip the watering first thing in case i slept in and thought they would recover with out a problem. They did so just fine so I allowed the midday watering to occur as scheduled-Drip 15 minutes at 1 pm.

They just finished getting watered and are drooping severely again with the tops bent all the way over. I am concerned there may be a systemic problem in the roots because they are in hydroton and it retains very little moisture as you know and never have they displayed the signs of overwatering before. 

Roots at the bottom of the pot are white and healthy-so my question is..... 

Is this likely to be an acute isssue from the extra watering yesterday and if so will it sort itself out once allowed to dry out sufficiently?? 

OR.

Would a soak in a concentrated solution of H2O2 force some air back in the root zone and aid recovery. I have seen others post about using this technique on overwatered specimens and wanted to hear you validate it.
If this is an advisable method what ratio H2O2/H2O should be used.

Thanks as always.
OitW


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## fred1 (Oct 11, 2008)

Thanks Al!!! 

My exhaust fan wasn't a centrifugal fan, so I am returning it and going to get it done right. Probably just going to use two centrifugal fans of equal cfm. Think that because the duct is so long, this will work best. 

Thanks! Plus rep, not that you need it.


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## holmes (Oct 11, 2008)

howdy
Do you know if there is a unit that will allow me to switch lights on a single ballast, they have expensive controllers for 10 to 20 lights.

do you think we can put one together on a timer,relay


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## budightman (Oct 11, 2008)

Hello, can anybody tell me if it is possible to have a 400 wt hps in a homebox s? The dimensions are 31.5" X 31.5" X 63". Or, would that be too much heat. I dont have a cool tube, which may be a problem. I have a 4" intake as well as a 6" outtake that are both hooked up to 80 cfm inline fans, as well as an internal oscillating fan. Also, it gets very cold in the winter where I am so I figure that could help with the heat a littlebit. Any suggestions would help. Thanks.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 12, 2008)

Old in the Way said:


> so my question is.....
> 
> Is this likely to be an acute isssue from the extra watering yesterday and if so will it sort itself out once allowed to dry out sufficiently??


 Usually when you see wilt occur which is due to overwatering, it's not a one-time event. When plants are drooping it's because there's been some root rot that's been taking a while to destroy enough rootmass such that the foliar mass can't be sufficiently supplied anymore. You say your roots are bright white in the bottom of the pot, so I'm not so convinced it's root rot. 

What are the room temp & RH when you see the wilt?



> Would a soak in a concentrated solution of H2O2 force some air back in the root zone and aid recovery. I have seen others post about using this technique on overwatered specimens and wanted to hear you validate it.
> If this is an advisable method what ratio H2O2/H2O should be used.


 yes, this is a useful rescue method. Not so much a soak as a dip, though, enough to saturate the rootmass with a fairly strong H2O2 soln, about 10ml/L. Allow them to dry back significantly before watering again. 

Upside is that even if you have no root probs, this will not bother the plant, but if you do, it'll begin to sort them out. 



fred1 said:


> My exhaust fan wasn't a centrifugal fan, so I am returning it and going to get it done right. Probably just going to use two centrifugal fans of equal cfm. Think that because the duct is so long, this will work best.


 I agree. Should work great.  If the blowers are too noisy, you can always put motor speed controllers on them. A blower running at 80% max speed may only make 50% of the noise. Good quality centrifs are damn near silent, though. 



holmes said:


> howdy
> Do you know if there is a unit that will allow me to switch lights on a single ballast, they have expensive controllers for 10 to 20 lights.
> 
> do you think we can put one together on a timer,relay


 Just to be clear, you want to alternately run 2 lamps on one ballast? Say one in one room for 12h and one in another for the next 12h? That's pretty easily doable.



budightman said:


> Hello, can anybody tell me if it is possible to have a 400 wt hps in a homebox s?


What's a homebox s?



> The dimensions are 31.5" X 31.5" X 63".


Is that LxWxH? If so, a 400 is a good match for the floorspace.



> Or, would that be too much heat. I dont have a cool tube, which may be a problem.


For about $60, you could have one. Will also take about $40 worth of fan & about the same in aluminium flexiduct (as used for range hood ventilation). 



> I have a 4" intake as well as a 6" outtake that are both hooked up to 80 cfm inline fans, as well as an internal oscillating fan. Also, it gets very cold in the winter where I am so I figure that could help with the heat a littlebit. Any suggestions would help. Thanks.


Cooler weather is a blessing, but it shouldn't be part of your longer term grow room operation plans. Problems will come right back in the spring. 

I'd add another 4" intake and upgrade the 6" exhaust to a better blower, one that moves about 200CFM. Use the old 80CFM 6" unit to drive your cooltube.


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## holmes (Oct 12, 2008)

> Just to be clear, you want to alternately run 2 lamps on one ballast? Say one in one room for 12h and one in another for the next 12h? That's pretty easily doable.


that is what i want, that should help with the temps and evenly distribute power consumption.


----------



## Old in the Way (Oct 12, 2008)

Good on ya,

Thanks Mate!

I was worried about them heading into lights out last night so a couple hrs before hand I went ahead with a dip of 8ml/L then dipped in a rinse a straight h2o @ 5.8 of course. 

Lights on in an hour or so. I will let you know how they are doing.

I assume this can be done again to no ill effect if needed.

Preciate It!

OitW


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## Old in the Way (Oct 12, 2008)

As to the environment......

Precision control my man precision control, lol.

Temps 76-78 lights on, 69-74 lights off (last night it hit 69-the lowest it has ever gotten)
RH 50-60%
Ph 5.8-dead nuts
DM Gold Flower Nutes at 1190ppm to start
35% h2o2 at 1.7ml/L

..............wooohooo, lights just kicked on in flower room an they have recovered again, going to let them dry back and try the midday watering again in 5 hrs or so...

-OitW


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## iloveit (Oct 12, 2008)

Hello again Al 

Ive been watering according to your instructions & today morning I noticed a layer of fuzz has formed around the seeds see pics

Any idea what this is?


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## kpw555 (Oct 12, 2008)

I know you are a very busy man Mr. Fuct, however I would be very interested in your thoughts on my  op. 

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/119268-first-hydro-grow.html

Any thoughts that you have for improvement would be much appreciated.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 12, 2008)

holmes said:


> that is what i want, that should help with the temps and evenly distribute power consumption.


 It's a fairly simple matter to use a relay (or two) to make a switch that will transfer the output of a single ballast to run one of two lamps. 

However, keep in mind that the cost of the relays, timer (and power supply for the relay coils if a low voltage coil relay type is selected) may exceed the cost of a second ballast!

The main design constraint is that HPS ballasts have an igniter which sends a 1.5-4kV (at quite low current) pulse to the lamp to strike the arc. Most relays are not rated for that much voltage. 

If you use a relay that can't provide 4kV worth of isolation between the contacts, the igniter pulse could jump between the contacts and not make it to the lamp tube, preventing the tube from striking. 

So, for this design exercise, I've used two separate SPDT relays:







The wiring from the ballast, through the relays and on to the lamps will need about 25mm distance between uninsulated connections (air has 10kV dielectric strength per 25mm).

AC power connections to the timer and ballast are omitted in this dwg for clarity. Relays shown have AC mains voltage coils, but relays with 12V coils are much more common and much cheaper. If low voltage coil relays are used, you'll have to organise a low voltage power supply between the timer and the relay coils.

I do think it would be more reliable in the end to just use two ballasts, but this ckt will do the job. 



Old in the Way said:


> I assume this can be done again to no ill effect if needed.


 No need to assume- it'll be fine. 



iloveit said:


> Any idea what this is?


Yep, it's mould, caused by keeping the RW too wet. 



kpw555 said:


> Any thoughts that you have for improvement would be much appreciated.


Yep, you're going to need a *lot* more ventilation capacity than 50CFM. Plan on 1CFM per cubic foot of room volume.


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## GypsyBush (Oct 12, 2008)

Hey AL...

So I am following your advice, and LOGIC really...

The Aerogarden is done after this first harvest... I may keep a small mother on it or something... but the growing operation just went from miniature to scale model.... lol...

I built a tent with a metal frame and B&W Panda Film... 

36"W X 60"T X 20"D...

It will be lighted by a 600 HPS in a 8" cool tube... as soon as the mailman brings it....

Right now, I have these fans... 

4" in line blower @ 80cfm (I have it as the exhaust, connected to a cooling thermostat)

4" in line blower @ 170 CFM ( I was planning on running this on the cool tube, with the pictured attachments and ducting)

but I also have access to 265 cfm squirrel cage fan ...

How would you arrange the ventilation...?

I know the cool tube is to have dedicated ventilation, what I am asking is which fan would you put where?

Thanks!!!

Here are a few pics of what I built... can't wait for the light to get here...

Thanks again for your input and advice... it's too bad cool people like you don't get "cool people" awards... like a nice vacation to an exotic location every year or something...

Thanks Al...!!!


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## ldnsharkkid (Oct 12, 2008)

Hey Al, i invested in a cooltube but i still been havig temp problems, i done a little kindergarden art with an idea i wanted to pick ur brain with.. Ill post it now and elaborate after.....







Because i am growing in a budbox i only have holes for 1 intake and 1 extractor fan, i still dont have an intake yet but i will if this gets a thumbs up lol.. but anyway if u can understand the drawing im trying to intake outside air and pump it into the budbox airmass but also through the cooltube, and the extractor fan sucking the rooms airmass and dumping it, but also beig joined by the cooltube air AFTER the extractor fan....in theory could this work, or would i need mega centrifugals to get enough airflow through the cooltube?? I have a 6" centri extractor at the mo havent brought an intake yet was thinkin about suggestions of size, either bigger and i make the 6" an intake or vice versa.....any advice is much appreciated al, thanks dude


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## iloveit (Oct 12, 2008)

Yep, it's mould, caused by keeping the RW too wet.

Damn Ive learnt the hard way. 

I wont be making the same mistake twice.
Ive started to use the H2O2 according to your recommended dosage, should I carry on with the grow with these seeds or should I bin them & start over?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 12, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> How would you arrange the ventilation...?


 I'd use the 265CFM on the room exhaust and the 170CFM on the cooltube. 



> Thanks again for your input and advice... it's too bad cool people like you don't get "cool people" awards... like a nice vacation to an exotic location every year or something...


no worries, I had a bula bula time in Fiji earlier this year, but unfortunately, it's the first holiday I've had in about 8 yrs...



ldnsharkkid said:


>


Sorry, this won't work. Air leaving the intake blower will follow the path of least resistance, into the room airmass. The cooltube will not get sufficient flow. 



> i am growing in a budbox i only have holes for 1 intake and 1 extractor fan


Just make more holes!



iloveit said:


> should I carry on with the grow with these seeds or should I bin them & start over?


Healthy sprouts don't go to mould. I can only guess that the seedling is dead. You may have no choice but to start over.


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## GypsyBush (Oct 12, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> How would you arrange the ventilation...?





Al B. Fuct said:


> I'd use the 265CFM on the room exhaust and the 170CFM on the cooltube.


Would you recommend I use passive intake? 

and just get rid of the 80 CFM... it's out of it's league here isn't it...?

Thanks man...

If you ever come to Alaska... I'll make sure you got a spot by the wood stove... it's been snowing all day...


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## tusseltussel (Oct 12, 2008)

hi al if you get a chance is there some guide lines to follow like ph drops root rot??? ph rise??? ppm drop??? ppm rise???? i havn't been able to find anything that isn't burried at least i havent been able to dig anything up yet ima keep lookin but if their is a chart or somthing you could help me with in any way at all here is the deal diy areo setup i just did a res change on the ninth added 1.5 ml per gal. of 40% h202 let it run for 20 min. added nutes, fox farms tiger bloom ppm was 750,ph 5.8- next night i check, ppm 750, ph 6.2 next night same 6.2,750 tonite ppm 810 ph 6.0. didn't seem to drink much water but ppm jumped no sign of nute burn or any other problems so why does this happen am i over nuting and just don't know cause im a hydro newb i know i will probably find my answer if i keep pokin around but if you can help i would be greatful kiss-ass


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 12, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> Would you recommend I use passive intake?
> 
> and just get rid of the 80 CFM... it's out of it's league here isn't it...?


yep, that's a very small blower for the application.I'd suggest a passive intake of about 2x the dia of the exhaust, or an intake blower a little closer to the CFM rating of the exhaust. 



> If you ever come to Alaska... I'll make sure you got a spot by the wood stove... it's been snowing all day...


Soon as that power abusing gov you have up there has departed politics, we'll talk.


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## GypsyBush (Oct 12, 2008)

One more thing Al...

I am wiring the thermostat to the 80 cfm fan to do a test but it seems backwards to me...

When I turn the dial up (higher numbers) the fan kicks on and when I bring down, it shuts off...

Did I wire backwards or did the dude at the electrical shop give the opposite of what need...???

Maybe I am just stoned... or maybe I am just that dumb... but I am stumped... can you help?

Thanks....


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## holmes (Oct 12, 2008)

> However, keep in mind that the cost of the relays, timer (and power supply for the relay coils if a low voltage coil relay type is selected) may exceed the cost of a second ballast!


i had no idea the parts would be so expensive, it would not be worth the trouble at all if that is the case. but thank you very much for the lovely diagram

how much heat does a ballast make?

how long will your plants survive if there was a failure with a pump or power issue?

why do rice crispies snap, crackle and pop?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 12, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> Odid the dude at the electrical shop give the opposite of what need...???


Unless there's another set of contacts on this thermostat which close when the air temp is above the setpoint (instead of below it as is happening now, suiting a heating appliance), the dude at the electrical shop has indeed given you the wrong thing. 




holmes said:


> i had no idea the parts would be so expensive, it would not be worth the trouble at all if that is the case. but thank you very much for the lovely diagram


Depends upon how good a shopper you are. Ballasts are not terribly expensive; I get 1000W CWA ballasts for $150, 600s for about $75, 400s for $60. 



> how much heat does a ballast make?


Enough that they should be mounted outside the grow room is you have trouble keeping air temp below 26C. 



> how long will your plants survive if there was a failure with a pump or power issue?


Mine? A couple of days with the water stored in the Fytocell. On the other hand, DWC/bubbler systems are in big trouble when power goes out because their air pump stops. All plants can be killed in just a few hours.



> why do rice crispies snap, crackle and pop?


The air bubbles in the puffed cereal collapse when milk is added.


----------



## holmes (Oct 12, 2008)

LOL
I admire you, I want to be like Al

i do not have anything set up yet, im just doing my homework.
if they contribute heat, then i might opt for the electronic ballast. I know how you feel about them, and i know they are expensive, but i dont want any more heat other than lights and co2 generator. If they can do the job properly, not even up to the claims the manufactures have, then im happy. besides, i beleive they come with severel year warantees


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## holmes (Oct 12, 2008)

for those who use aero, dwc, nft, media that dont retain water. in the occurance of a power outage, is it possible to have a small backup generator detect the shortage and supply power to pumps and fans?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 13, 2008)

You can get air pumps with battery backups, someone brought one to my attention a few weeks ago, damned if I can remember offhand where it could be had from. Something like 28 hours backup at reduced air flow. DWC is about the only system that needs such heroics. Others are OK without, especially if there's no power to run lighting. However, pump and timer failures are things you just have to catch through looking in on things regularly.


----------



## bleezyg420 (Oct 13, 2008)

so I now have inline's a 4" for exhaust, and a 6" for soon to be cool tube.I need some guidance on a thermostat system for my intake and exhaust. Are fan controllers a necessity?


----------



## holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

im not really interested in dwc, so i dont need an airpumpbackup wonder thing. I am interested in a universal backup thing

have you ever given a shotty to a kangaroo
you might not know what that means
shotty;http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shotty#When someone punts the burning end of a blunt or joint into their mouth and blows into your mouth...you get a huge hit. 
Yo, give me a shotty, bitch. 

urbandictionary.com


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 13, 2008)

bleezyg420 said:


> Are fan controllers a necessity?


If by 'fan controller' you mean an integrated thermostat and motor speed controller, no. You may not even need the speed controllers, but they are nice to have if you want your fans to be a bit quieter. I would hazard a guess that separately purchased speed controllers & thermostats would be cheaper than integrated controllers. Tstats are about $40, MSCs are about $30, your mileage may vary.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 13, 2008)

holmes said:


> im not really interested in dwc, so i dont need an airpumpbackup wonder thing. I am interested in a universal backup thing


A UPS for a computer might work for pumps, but won't have enough reserve to run lighting. 



> have you ever given a shotty to a kangaroo
> you might not know what that means


Yes, I know what a shotty is...  

We have laws about native animal abuse. If Skippy the Bush Kangaroo could give informed consent to get high, I'd get them all stoned stupid, but Skippy can't consent as such, so I think I'll leave him & his mates be.


----------



## holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

so lately what have your yeilds been like?, what was your best production month?

have you ever met crocodile dundee and the crocodile hunter, how bout russel crowe, hes aussie i believe.


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## holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

when you get the chance, would you review this site, its not much to look at, shouldnt take long. Then let me in on your opinion. 
Home
they come in all spectrums, and claim that they are closer to the suns frequency using a digital ballast


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## holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

sorry, those are just the bulbs, it doesnt have any good info on that site, this is a forum on a hydro suppliers website, a led enthusiast is blabbing about something, then this guy life light shows up, and pisses everyone off. this is a bit of a read. but i think youll enjoy it anyways
LED Grow Light Opinions - Hydroponics Forum


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## ldnsharkkid (Oct 13, 2008)

Hey Al aint u gonna rep me for my kindergarden art lol, im only joking i spent the best part of 10 mins putting that together i thought it mite be a good idea but i understand, but maybe this modified idea is better....

What if i had 2 intake blowers, 1 for the rooms airmass and 1 solely for the cooltube, could i then attach the cooltube dump to the extractor dump AFTER the extractor fan, or do i need a seperate extractor fan aswell. I'm thinking this could be good for me becuase i could source the cooltube air from beside a window ambient temp would be about 17c, would this help, or should i just pay £50 for a mini ac unit to control temps until december when i move into a house and bigger setup....

Sorry for picking your brain Al nice to know you pay enough attention to give an educated opinion, which is much appreciated, and maybe someday i can return the favour just gimme bout 10yrs.................


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## iloveit (Oct 13, 2008)

Today is a sad day (again), the young beans got infected with mould due to over watering (No.1 noobi mistake huh) Al B Fuct has confirmed it.

This time Im ordering Root riot (they say it provides more oxygen) and give it another try with the help of our friend Mr H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide).

I need a few days to mourn before I begin sniff...sniff


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## GypsyBush (Oct 13, 2008)

Hey Al... I just thought I'd let you know that I am in FAQt stupid....lol..

The thermostat that I got last week is a "single pull/double gate"..?!?!?

Meaning that there is an norm open and a norm closed circuit as well as the common....

So by simply switching one wire's position, I now have the cooling stat I need...

Thanks again for all your help...

Gypsy...


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## bleezyg420 (Oct 13, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> If by 'fan controller' you mean an integrated thermostat and motor speed controller, no. You may not even need the speed controllers, but they are nice to have if you want your fans to be a bit quieter. I would hazard a guess that separately purchased speed controllers & thermostats would be cheaper than integrated controllers. Tstats are about $40, MSCs are about $30, your mileage may vary.


So would this type of coil thermostat be sufficient for my exhaust inline. Id just like the ehaust fan to turn off at night when the temps drop below 72-70.


----------



## GypsyBush (Oct 13, 2008)

bleezyg420 said:


> So would this type of coil thermostat be sufficient for my exhaust inline. Id just like the ehaust fan to turn off at night when the temps drop below 72-70.




I saw those when I bought mine...

But I went with this kind... and as you may have read, it allows for both cooling and heating, depending on which terminal you wire into...









I'll let Al answer you, but I think both kinds would suit our needs...

Which by the way.... do you have a link to some pictures of what you are setting up...???

My build starts on the bottom of page 21 of my journal...

Check here.... https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/101376-mini-aeroponic-garden-21.html

Best of Luck...

Gypsy...





.


----------



## greenstar (Oct 13, 2008)

Al, hope you are doing well.

Will 5.5" pots be big enough for SOG? American Hydroponics makes some 3' X 3' trays with these lids.
http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=1151

24 spaces for 5.5" pots, which goes along with your setup. This lid would keep the roots from being exposed to light. No I'm not buying from that place, just a link so you can see what I'm talking about. I'm going to source it cheaper. The lids will probably be $100 but they are precut so you can just drop the 5.5" pots directly in.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 13, 2008)

holmes said:


> so lately what have your yeilds been like?, what was your best production month?


 Around 1-1.25z/plant, about 23-29z per tray. 



> have you ever met crocodile dundee


No, he's a movie character. 



> and the crocodile hunter,


 No, he's slightly dead.



> how bout russel crowe, hes aussie i believe.


Yes, he and his band 'Thirty Odd Foot Of Grunts' have in the past been stupidly drunk at The Bridge Hotel in Rozelle NSW. I don't cocktail but I have on occasion had to be the alco-hauler, collecting inebriated associates from TOFOG gigs @ The Bridge.



holmes said:


> when you get the chance, would you review this site, its not much to look at, shouldnt take long. Then let me in on your opinion.
> Home
> they come in all spectrums, and claim that they are closer to the suns frequency using a digital ballast


 You can do any phase of growing with plain old HPS. I veg my mums with a 400HPS and flower with 1000HPS. 

Electronic ballasts are getting less expensive and do save a small amount of power (about 9% with 600HPS), but it'll still take a long time to recover the purchase price difference between standard inductive ballasts and electronic units on the basis of power savings. A 600W Lumatek ballast costs about $247 around here, a 600 CWA inductive costs about $75.

I can't find the 'closer to the sun's frequency' claim on the linked site. 

Colour temp is a very small player in growing cannabis; most of the effect of lighting on plants is dictated by the photoperiod (day length). You can induce different growth habits with different spectral prominences, though. Vegging with HPS yields somewhat elongated plants (nice for when you need long stems for SoG clones), flowering with MH yields somewhat more leafy buds (for which I can't think of any good use). 

Cannabis produces best yield and density by flowering with HPS because the red-yellow spectrum of it mimics late autumn sunlight at temperate latitudes, where cannabis is indigenous. Low sun angles in autumn mean the sunlight is passing through a long path through the atmosphere, which filters out most blue light. Thus, cannabis is evolved to make the most of red-yellow light in flowering, which is luckily what HPS makes. I say 'luckily' because HPS was not really developed for horticulture, rather it was designed to be highly efficient street lighting. The efficiency is gained by NOT producing full-spectrum light. So it happens, the light emitted from an arc through sodium vapour has pronounced red-yellow peaks, which just happens to suit cannabis in flower very well. Full spectrum lighting is not necessary in any single phase of growing cannabis, so there's no need for you to pay for lighting capable of making full spectrum light. 



iloveit said:


> This time Im ordering Root riot (they say it provides more oxygen) and give it another try with the help of our friend Mr H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide).


 Skip the 'root riot' stuff. All you need is H2O2 and proper watering to make 'em go. 



GypsyBush said:


> The thermostat that I got last week is a "single pull/double gate"..?!?!?


That's a pretty klunky way of saying 'single pole, double throw' (SPDT). 



> Meaning that there is an norm open and a norm closed circuit as well as the common....
> 
> So by simply switching one wire's position, I now have the cooling stat I need...


I rather suspected that your tstat would have NO & NC contacts, just for this purpose. 



bleezyg420 said:


> So would this type of coil thermostat be sufficient for my exhaust inline. Id just like the ehaust fan to turn off at night when the temps drop below 72-70.


If it is a 'cooling' thermostat (contacts close when temps go above the setpoint), it'll do fine.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 13, 2008)

greenstar said:


> Will 5.5" pots be big enough for SOG?


Yes, that's about the smallest I'd consider using. That size will allow 4 plants per sq ft. 


> American Hydroponics makes some 3' X 3' trays with these lids.
> http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=1151
> 
> 24 spaces for 5.5" pots, which goes along with your setup. This lid would keep the roots from being exposed to light.


Not necessary, in fact, this lid would limit the number of plants you could fit in a 3x3 to 24, where you could otherwise put many more plants in the tray. 

The point of growing plants in standard pots as normally used for soil (netpots are not necessary) is to keep the rootmasses contained within the pots to prevent roots knitting with roots of neighbouring plants, preserving portability of plants within the op. This is useful for plant maintenance as well as moving slow plants into more favourable light coverage positions during flowering. Roots may poke out of the drain holes in standard pots, but exposure to air will prune them off so they don't extend more than a couple of mm from the drain holes.


----------



## bleezyg420 (Oct 13, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> I'll let Al answer you, but I think both kinds would suit our needs...
> 
> Which by the way.... do you have a link to some pictures of what you are setting up...???


Im still waiting on a double wide so eventually Ill put both 600's in that. As of now Im using the 3x3, which Ill convert to the veg room, and free my closet finally. Ill be moving the tents into my adjacent bedroom, after saving up enough money to take over his side of the rent. Right now Im trying to cover the cost of his rent. I dont think I would need a heating component since my 600 will keep the area way too hot, with the exhaust off.


Do they make digital cooling thermostats instead of coil, like that plug and go ? Just simply plug it in, and then plug the blower to it?


----------



## iloveit (Oct 13, 2008)

Another quick question in regards to speeding up the early grow cycle (Id just like your opinion on the process of shoots:

Would it be best if after germination I place the seed in RW & immediately switch on the fluros & keep them on 24/7 (which is what Ive been doing)

OR

should I place the seed (before germination) in the RW and leave it in the dark until a sprout is visible on the surface & then switch on the fluros on 24/7 (someone recommended this method & now Im confused but Ill I going to do as you say)


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 13, 2008)

bleezyg420 said:


> Do they make digital cooling thermostats instead of coil, like that plug and go ? Just simply plug it in, and then plug the blower to it?


yep, this one will do that. $A40 ($US29.90) from Jaycar Electronics in Australia, costs about $A10 ($US6.50) to ship to Nth America. 









iloveit said:


> Would it be best if after germination I place the seed in RW & immediately switch on the fluros & keep them on 24/7 (which is what Ive been doing)
> 
> OR
> 
> should I place the seed (before germination) in the RW and leave it in the dark until a sprout is visible on the surface & then switch on the fluros on 24/7 (someone recommended this method & now Im confused but Ill I going to do as you say)


Honestly, it makes no difference either way. Before it has leaves, the seedling doesn't care about light. However, once there's seed leaves out of the hull, they can go under 24/0 fluoro light.


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## bleezyg420 (Oct 13, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> yep, this one will do that. $A40 ($US29.90) from Jaycar Electronics in Australia, costs about $A10 ($US6.50) to ship to Nth America.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks al, My dads full aussie. Born in melbourne. My cousins live on the yarra river.


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## YaK (Oct 13, 2008)

YaK said:


> I read this thread alot, although not entirely
> 
> I think I read in another thread that you were collaborating with someone on doing a batwing/cool tube combo, an "AlBFuct signature series" ??
> 
> ...


the adjust-a-batwing prices are pretty expensive, but look to be worth it. since i'm not that handy with metal work, I'll get one of these in conjunction with a 1k cool tube, if there is in fact not an affordable alternative (ie the combo you spoke of)

Also, I'm kind of suprised that more people dont use solar energy, is there a reason why you dont use it? perhaps location?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 13, 2008)

bleezyg420 said:


> Thanks al, My dads full aussie. Born in melbourne. My cousins live on the yarra river.


heh, send him this link, he'll appreciate it. 



YaK said:


> the adjust-a-batwing prices are pretty expensive, but look to be worth it. since i'm not that handy with metal work, I'll get one of these in conjunction with a 1k cool tube, if there is in fact not an affordable alternative (ie the combo you spoke of)


The combo isn't available yet. If you want what I have, you'll have to purchase the AAW and cooltube separately and fit them together yourself. 


> Also, I'm kind of suprised that more people dont use solar energy, is there a reason why you dont use it? perhaps location?


I need about 23kWh/day to run my op. The amount of solar generation equipment necessary would be well over $100,000. Here's a 30.5kW PV system for comparison.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 13, 2008)

The linked PV system in aerial photos. It's effing HUGE. 

N37° 00&#39; W121° 47&#39; - Google Maps


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## sparkafire (Oct 13, 2008)

Hey ABF 

So I am getting real close to being done with my first set and I cut off a few buds to get a feel for the drying and trimming process and after doing so these buds smell like I just pulled them out of the hay field. They are in the dryer now and i just checked them and they are doing OK but still smells like i should feed them to the cows not smoke them. 

I have read where that if you cure them it will cure it out of them but I am trying to use your methods and i don't recall you stating that your started your process out like that. 

What say ABF? I know you have some nugs of knowledge on this. 

Thanks Al


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## iloveit (Oct 13, 2008)

Thanks uncle Al Ill let you know how it goes.


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## holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

have you ever tried feeding less than what a nute company suggests?
1/4 - 3/4 of the suggested dose. It seems like overkill the amount you gotta put in there, especially when they say its concentrated. so many people have salt build up issues, isnt that a hint to lower the godamn amount your using?

tell the truth now al, do you or have you ever used nads?


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## thegoods217 (Oct 13, 2008)

Hey AL, 

My clones have been under fluros for 10 days now and I still have no sign of roots. 2 of them have grown new leaves on top, but the roots have not popped out of the bottom of the rockwool cubes. 

Now 2 of my clones are wilting really bad. I have been watering them 2x a day and keeping the cubes saturated to about 20-25g on the scale. The temp in the room has gone down from 75-76 to now 69 due to the crazy temp change here. 

What can i do to perk up the 2 that are wilting badly? The heat pad is on at all times underneath the mat and clones.

I am watering them w/ 5.8 ph adjusted water w/ 30%$ h202 grade.


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## Slab (Oct 13, 2008)

I recollect Mr Fuct stating to give them some time in the dark till they perk up again.

Heat matt not raising temp?

with those inconsistent temps could be another week until roots protrude if at all, good luck.

pardon me for posting Al,


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 13, 2008)

sparkafire said:


> Hey ABF
> 
> So I am getting real close to being done with my first set


 How close? Buds harvested prematurely will have a lot of dark green leaf compared to light green seed bracts and much less resin than when properly finished flowering. Chlorophylly taste comes from the dark green leafy material, which has not only lots of chlorophyll but a lot of cellulose matter compared tot he amount of resin on them. It's the resin that gives good cannabis a great flavour. I bet mine would taste grassy if I tried sampling something from wk 4 or 5, but you know, I've never done that. 



> I have read where that if you cure them it will cure it out of them but I am trying to use your methods and i don't recall you stating that your started your process out like that.


 Grassy flavour comes from leaf, which has a lot of chlorophyll and cellulose by weight compared to budmass (empty seed bracts) and the THC bearing resin trichomes coating the buds. If you are not smoking leaf, curing, specifically by aging in jars, is not necessary.

It'd be a fair guess to say that about 60% (or more) of the budmass & resin are made in the last 2 weeks. Early sampling thus is not a very good indicator of how the stuff will finish up. 

How much leaf have you left on your buds and just how early is this sample? 



holmes said:


> have you ever tried feeding less than what a nute company suggests?
> 1/4 - 3/4 of the suggested dose. It seems like overkill the amount you gotta put in there,


There's a bell curve to nute strength; 'not enough,' 'just right' and *dead. *The trick is to hit 'just right.' *Dead *is occasionally thought by some radicals to be a bad thing, 'not enough' means you sacrificed yield but paid for the power to run the lighting anyway. 



> especially when they say its concentrated.


Would you rather I go to the hydro shop and bring home 550L of nutes every two weeks which are already mixed with water to the strength plants can use, or should I bring home a pair of 5L jugs which magically turn into 1375L of plant-ready nute mix? Of course, nute mixes are concentrated so you can add your water at home and not pay so much (nor work so hard) to move nutes around. 


> so many people have salt build up issues, isnt that a hint to lower the godamn amount your using?


No. 

Whenever you add nutrient salts to water, when the water evaporates, the salts will remain. Doesn't matter how little you add, there will always be nute salt residues when dealing with hydroponics. 



> tell the truth now al, do you or have you ever used nads?


No, but I have some. 



thegoods217 said:


> Hey AL,
> 
> My clones have been under fluros for 10 days now and I still have no sign of roots. 2 of them have grown new leaves on top, but the roots have not popped out of the bottom of the rockwool cubes.
> 
> ...


Most of the water weight lost between waterings with clones is due to evaporation. The clone itself, before it has roots, really only needs a few of grams of water per day. 

What has happened is the evaporation rate has decreased because of your recent temperature drop. You are also not presenting a 30C air temp environment. The cubes are thus staying too wet and you may have got some stem rot. Reduce your watering to suit the lower temperature. 

You need a clonebox which maintains a 30C air temp. Do you have a proper 30C horticultural heat mat or are you trying to use a heating pad for people? What size and type of RW cube are you using. My cloning thread deals only with watering figures for 40mm plastic wprapped cubes. Smaller cubes or unwrapped cubes may behave differently. 

Cut the watering by half, give only about 12-13g (12-13ml) per watering (keeping in mind that if they're still fairly wet after 12h you should not give them any more water), check to see that the cubes do not fully dry out between your watering intervals. Pull the stems out of the cubes- the tips are probably rotted. Recut them and stick them back in another part of the cube. They'll perk up in a day if they are not too far gone. The clock starts ticking again when you have to recut, though. It'll be at least 7 days before you see roots, provided you correct the overwatering. When a clone goes a long time without roots, it will begin to exhaust the stored nutrients and will begin to yellow. Without roots, the plant can't take up nutrients, so it will eventually run out and you'll have to compost that one and try again. 

Remember, all the stem needs to set root is a persistently damp environment, it never needs wet. You should not be able to shake any water out of a cube which is just damp and not saturated.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 13, 2008)

Slab said:


> I recollect Mr Fuct stating to give them some time in the dark till they perk up again.


I give cuttings 6h in darkness immediately after cutting only. His clones are 10 days post cutting. Wilt that happens several days after cutting will not be cured by giving a dark period; it will be stem rot from overwatering and should be addressed as in the last post. 



> pardon me for posting Al,


I will this time, but if you reply giving advice in my stead, please refer the reader to something I've written. Your recollection may not be precise. I'm keeping up with queries pretty well at the moment, though.


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## YaK (Oct 13, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> heh, send him this link, he'll appreciate it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


your op runs two 1K lights, a 400, plus fans, pumps, and misc. ? it seems like you could get solar for WAY WAY cheaper than 100K. you are smarter than I am, so I figure you know better... but solar is said to usually pay for itself in about ten years, with the energy savings (energy usually just goes up anyway, making solar more valuable) plus.. it's CLEAN!

I did a little search, and the cost of what your needs are didnt seem right, unless down under is just way more expensive. maybe take a peek at this link Solar Photovoltaic Industry Cost and Price Trends 

am I way off? 

I'll do the aaw + cool tube combo... bummer though, because I'd have love to been one of the ones to get your signature combo! so cool.

anyway, thanks man, I'm doing a flood and drain now inspired by your thread, and I'm very pleased by it's simplicity and ease. I switched from aero/nft, and the only drawback of flood and drain is the necessity for grow media, where in aero/nft you dont need anything... which is no waste, which is nice, but it comes with complexities such as not being able to move the plants once they are established.

rock on, and when the combo is available, I hope you link it to your sig.


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## GrowSpecialist (Oct 13, 2008)

Theres some really good teachings in this thread. Good job, Al.


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## holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

if you opened up a personal request hotline, youd make more dough than you do pushing a couple oz's.
i think my biggest beef with your system is the media use (i hate the idea of walking in with bags of floc or whatever on a monthy basis), and having to take so many cuttings (i would want to do more than 20-23, that means more mothers more work). dont get me wrong, i think its a fine system, since reading how to get a harvest every 2 weeks my brain has been on 
be sure that i will be back to pick your brains, ive got a calc test tommorow that ive put off studying for so that i can mastermind a grow here. unless you can help me evaluate integrals??


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 13, 2008)

YaK said:


> I did a little search, and the cost of what your needs are didnt seem right, unless down under is just way more expensive. maybe take a peek at this link Solar Photovoltaic Industry Cost and Price Trends


I can't find on that site where any costs are cited for a system which would supply me 23kWh per day. Can you? I get mains power for my op for about 5c/kWh, so it's a real horserace between mains & solar overall cost, which is really all I'm concerned about. The rest of it is tree-huggin' hippie crap, IMO.

My op draws right on 3500W with everything going (12H/day), ~1300W when the flowering lights are off. It's gonna take a _*lot*_ of panels (and a garden shed full of batteries if off-grid) to support that load. 



> I'll do the aaw + cool tube combo... bummer though, because I'd have love to been one of the ones to get your signature combo! so cool.


I'm actually very uncool. I'm in fact anti-trendy. If you met me you'd think 'what rock does that berk live under?' Seriously, I was musing a bit when I suggested the Al B signature edition, but Accent probably will have an AAW with a cooltube in the next few months. 



> in aero/nft you dont need anything... which is no waste, which is nice, but it comes with complexities such as not being able to move the plants once they are established.


Very true and very true. Media disposal is a security risk but one I deal with sensibly.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 13, 2008)

GrowSpecialist said:


> Theres some really good teachings in this thread. Good job, Al.


thanks. 



holmes said:


> if you opened up a personal request hotline, youd make more dough than you do pushing a couple oz's.


Do you reckon? By my maths (and without much more commentary about it), I'd have to be making about $500/day to beat what 'pushing a couple oz' earns me each mo. Also, figure that my working days 'pushing a couple oz' can be as short as 30 mins or up to 12h/day for a couple days while harvesting every 2 weeks. I put about 60h/mo or 2h/day on avg into the op... so which one of you mob is going to pony up $250/hr to chat with me?  I reckon you'd die of boredom before 15 mins passed. 



> i think my biggest beef with your system is the media use (i hate the idea of walking in with bags of floc or whatever on a monthy basis), and having to take so many cuttings (i would want to do more than 20-23, that means more mothers more work).


yep, media disposal can be a problem, but it has not been a one for me. I can bring my media in without being seen by anyone as my nearest neighbours are 1km away and when bagged up like the rest of the household rubbish, blends in without drawing anyone's attention. 



> you can help me evaluate integrals??


Nah, I hate Japanese luxury cars.


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## holmes (Oct 13, 2008)

mr. fuct
are these forums safe, now your going to say somthing like " if they werent, would i be using it?"
could anyone trace information you put here back to the user?


> Nah, I hate Japanese luxury cars.


didnt you want a Rx8 a while back??
im spending too much time here with you mr. fuct, this is not good....not good at all....


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## Old in the Way (Oct 13, 2008)

Al, couple quick items:



> When a clone goes a long time without roots, it will begin to exhaust the stored nutrients and will begin to yellow. Without roots, the plant can't take up nutrients, so it will eventually run out and you'll have to compost that one and try again.


How yellow till you have to compost? I have a few 8-10 out of the 60ish from my first batch that have roots and went to flower friday but are seriously deficient looking. I recognized that and foliar fed as well as getting them on the nutes immediately when moving to flower. Will these recover? If they recover will the plants yield be seriously impacted by the nute defs it is expending energy on now? 

And my other question has to do with energy consumption/security concerns.

I am running 66kwh/day in lights when all four lights in the flower room are in use as well as the 3-450cfm fans, 1-800cfm fan, pumps, light movers etc. I hesitate to guess but 75ish kwh/day. Consumption was 4000++ kwh/month depending on the season prior to setting up shop. I have shed some consumption when I shed my ex-wife so last years comparisons aren't accurate for my household/my usage now. (sans op)

Should i be concerned about an automated metering system/cpu from my utility provider raising red flags?-figure a 50% increase in consumption--increasing in increments as I fill my trays. Or should it not be a problem. I actually considered putting in a pool/hottub to warrant the elecs. Just wasn't going to turn on that equipment-but its there if someone comes snooping and warrants an increase in my bill.
I am of course just paying my bill no pirating electrics or anything like that. Don't know if it makes a difference but I am in an area that has relatively large historic homes which are notoriously inefficient have owned for many years and I know I have neighbors with $600-800 elec bills (not mine but there are some monster houses around me) Just been feeling a bit paranoid now that things are starting to look like a productive, relatively sizeable grow
BTW-I pay $.082/kwh from my elec co. I want your rates...5 effing cents/kwh is great.

would appreciate your input about the clones and I hope you can put my mind at ease with my other issue. Keep in mind I have broken no security rules when it came to my build or with the grow itself thus far.

Thanks man..........


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## NewGrowth (Oct 14, 2008)

Al did you ever look into disposing your fytocell in your garden like you talked about before?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 14, 2008)

holmes said:


> mr. fuct
> are these forums safe, now your going to say somthing like " if they werent, would i be using it?"
> could anyone trace information you put here back to the user?


 Only RIU admin has access to user data (eg IP addresses), but if you're nervous, you can access RIU with a proxy. 



> didnt you want a Rx8 a while back??


That's not a luxury car. 


> im spending too much time here with you mr. fuct, this is not good....not good at all....


It does not bode well. 



Old in the Way said:


> How yellow till you have to compost?


When they've lost all their leaves, or the growing tip is cooked, that's about the time to call it.


> I have a few 8-10 out of the 60ish from my first batch that have roots and went to flower friday but are seriously deficient looking. I recognized that and foliar fed as well as getting them on the nutes immediately when moving to flower. Will these recover? If they recover will the plants yield be seriously impacted by the nute defs it is expending energy on now?


Plants which struggled when small will generally not yield well later on. 

And my other question has to do with energy consumption/security concerns.



> Consumption was 4000++ kwh/month depending on the season prior to setting up shop.


yow. 



> Should i be concerned about an automated metering system/cpu from my utility provider raising red flags?-figure a 50% increase in consumption--increasing in increments as I fill my trays. Or should it not be a problem. I actually considered putting in a pool/hottub to warrant the elecs. Just wasn't going to turn on that equipment-but its there if someone comes snooping and warrants an increase in my bill.


Computerised metering systems can record a number of things, from the basic kWh usage to usage pattern. Most if not all can be remotely queried. The only upside is there should be no meter readers nosing about. If I had my druthers, I'd rather have the plain old spinning disc in a glass jar. All the pwr co can get from that is the total kWh used since last read. 


> I am in an area that has relatively large historic homes which are notoriously inefficient have owned for many years and I know I have neighbors with $600-800 elec bills


 That's worth more than you know. If your usage is not out of line with neighbouring dwellings, you blend in to the woodwork. 

Still, power companies are not likely to audit your power usage history if you pay your bill on time- you're just a good customer. 



NewGrowth said:


> Al did you ever look into disposing your fytocell in your garden like you talked about before?


Yes, I tilled about 20L of used Fytocell into my veg patch. It blends in fairly well but doesn't disappear totally; a few crumbs seem to find their way to the surface. I like its water retention improvement to the soil so much that I have planted a rather exxy Wollemi pine tree with half a bag of new Fytocell in some rather iffy, sandy/silty soil. Have also potted up some butternut pumpkin seedlings in soil mixed with new Fytocell. I wanted to grow some pumpkins along a fence but the ground along the fenceline was too rocky, so they had to go in containers. Let's see how the Fytocell goes preserving moisture for these heavy drinking plants through the upcoming summer.


----------



## NewGrowth (Oct 14, 2008)

Thats cool Al but what do you do with the rest?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 14, 2008)

NewGrowth said:


> Thats cool Al but what do you do with the rest?


Bag it using the same bags I use for other common rubbish disposal and put it in the bin.


----------



## holmes (Oct 14, 2008)

to own a car is a luxury for some, but not for big al i guess

hey i just read the meter stuff, if the house has the old spinning meters, they dont know how much you use and when you use it?, only the total amount?
that means that the rate is fixed, and there is no such thing as off peak usage that they can moniter and trace to you, " well say there, youve used lots of watts at night, whats going on" ( i know, that was so gay, i dont want to stop, think and type, think and type).
if thats the case, it would be fine to run anywhere from 2-4 lights plus some extra , in after work hours, so that no meter man would see the thing spinning fast. how can i get a report of power consumption in the neighborhood?


----------



## holmes (Oct 14, 2008)

and wtf is a proxy?


----------



## greenstar (Oct 14, 2008)

holmes said:


> and wtf is a proxy?


http://proxy.org/cgi_proxies.shtml

A proxy hides your IP information. So, let's take me for example. I have a job, where and what isn't important.....while at work, if I want to read this forum, I use one of the free proxies in the link I listed above. That way my employer, if they were to look, sees a proxy site in my URL history, instead of a marijuana growing site. If you wanted to do what I call "internet cloaking" it's the way to fly. If you are concerned with hiding ish from your ISP, it works as well but I really wouldn't be worried about it at home.


----------



## Old in the Way (Oct 14, 2008)

Hey Al,

Saw a headline that said SE Aus (Adelaide maybe) is making it illegal to purchase and possess Hydro equip unless there is a valid agri-purpose for it (I know I consider what we do as valid ag-work, hell its trickier than dealing with 300 acres of soil grown ornamentals in my opinion). This was from back in June/July. You know anything about this? Are laws there similar to the archaic laws we deal with in the US?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 14, 2008)

holmes said:


> to own a car is a luxury for some, but not for big al i guess


If you consider owning a car a luxury, you must be British. 



> if the house has the old spinning meters, they dont know how much you use and when you use it?, only the total amount?


yep.


> that means that the rate is fixed, and there is no such thing as off peak usage that they can moniter and trace to you,


No, that means there's a second spinning disc meter for off-peak service. 



> if thats the case, it would be fine to run anywhere from 2-4 lights plus some extra , in after work hours, so that no meter man would see the thing spinning fast.


It's really of more use to run big lights at night so you can take advantage of cooler night air to draw into the op than to hide your spinning disc from the meter reader. 



> how can i get a report of power consumption in the neighborhood?


You can't. All you can do is weasel some info out of your neighbours. 



holmes said:


> and wtf is a proxy?


 It's a computer set up to relay traffic between you and the site you want to access. The site you want to see will record the IP of the proxy, not yours. 

Thanks for the link, greenstar.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 14, 2008)

Old in the Way said:


> You know anything about this? Are laws there similar to the archaic laws we deal with in the US?


The law in SA is impossible to enforce without evidence that you've been growing cannabis because the equipment they have criminalised has legit uses. However, if you're found to be growing cannabis, it's used as a 'pile-on' charge just to fuck with people even more.


----------



## bleezyg420 (Oct 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> equipment they have criminalised has legit uses. However, if you're found to be growing cannabis, it's used as a 'pile-on' charge just to fuck with people even more.


Like what, tomatoes? 
What a pile of shit, sry al.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 14, 2008)

The SA law IS a pile of shit, bleez. 

Even worse are the hydroponic cannabis laws in NSW, which will put you (meaning ME) away for 20 years.


----------



## BigBudBalls (Oct 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> The SA law IS a pile of shit, bleez.
> 
> Even worse are the hydroponic cannabis laws in NSW, which will put you (meaning ME) away for 20 years.


Kind humorous in that Australia was basically founded by criminals.


----------



## GypsyBush (Oct 14, 2008)

Well Al... I just got FUCT.... lol....

Finally got my package from HTG... and the 8" cool tube is not a tube at all....

Big air cooled reflector with 8" inch ducts.... but not a tube...

Here is what I got...







So I figured this might work... it barely fits.... kinda big... but it might work... (my space is 36"W x 60"T x 20"D)

But when I got home... and took it out of the box....

The bulb is smashed... the flat glass piece is loose from the frame... the frame's welds let go.... so I am pissed...!!!!

The box has been at the post office since the 6th and only today I got a slip....

I am pissed....

I have to send it all back and wait again.... FUCT.....!!!!!

My question is, do I want the 6" cool tube or would this ginormous mostruosity work better for my space...???

Fuck I'm pissed....

Anyways... wanna buy a manual on how to grow weed? I have been growing for 3 weeks now, and I figured out how to do it very easy and almost free...!!!!! just send me $300 CASH...lol....(sorry, I couldn't resist...lol...)

Cheers...

Gypsy...


----------



## DoobyDoo (Oct 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> The SA law IS a pile of shit, bleez.
> 
> Even worse are the hydroponic cannabis laws in NSW, which will put you (meaning ME) away for 20 years.


Are the laws in Australia so similar to the ones here, in that if I commit a murder or rape I'll likely get out in 7 years or so, whereas getting caught growing some plants the government says are bad will get you 10+ easy?

Oh, and remember: it's for your own protection. And the children.


----------



## NLXSK1 (Oct 14, 2008)

For anyone germinating in water.

I threw some seeds in water this morning and it appears the 3 that dropped have cracked. How long should I leave them before I transplant them into rockwool?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 14, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> Well Al... I just got FUCT.... lol....


 *sigh*




> So I figured this might work... it barely fits.... kinda big... but it might work... (my space is 36"W x 60"T x 20"D)


Yep, it probably will work OK given that it has a glass cover over the lamp as well as inlet & outlet duct flanges. 



> But when I got home... and took it out of the box....
> 
> The bulb is smashed... the flat glass piece is loose from the frame... the frame's welds let go.... so I am pissed...!!!!


 You have every right to be!


> My question is, do I want the 6" cool tube or would this ginormous mostruosity work better for my space...???


 Either one ought to work but if given my choice, I'd prefer the cooltube.



> Anyways... wanna buy a manual on how to grow weed? I have been growing for 3 weeks now, and I figured out how to do it very easy and almost free...!!!!! just send me $300 CASH...lol....(sorry, I couldn't resist...lol...)


bwaaaaahahahahahahah

Would you like some pork wings with that? 

Sorry about the smashed fixture. Hope the HTG is paying the return postage...



DoobyDoo said:


> Are the laws in Australia so similar to the ones here, in that if I commit a murder or rape I'll likely get out in 7 years or so, whereas getting caught growing some plants the government says are bad will get you 10+ easy?


Ayup. 



> Oh, and remember: it's for your own protection. And the children.


Yeah, won't somebody think of the CHILDREN? After all, there's utterly draconian laws about drug activity near schools, never you fucking mind that no dope dealer wants anything to do with kids, who a) couldn't keep their mouths shut with super glue and b) don't have a _*nickel*_ to spend on dope, ferfuxsake. 



NLXSK1 said:


> I threw some seeds in water this morning and it appears the 3 that dropped have cracked. How long should I leave them before I transplant them into rockwool?


When they have a taproot about 4-5mm (~1/4") long, then they can go in the RW and under fluoros.


----------



## NLXSK1 (Oct 14, 2008)

They will grow a taproot completely submerged in water?


----------



## bleezyg420 (Oct 14, 2008)

They treat hydro like it the devil. LIke marijuana is worse than heroin. Like it kills people. 
20+ years for cultivation is totally over and beyond. Lives are worth less than some plants. wtf! ALb, what are ounce prices in AUS, since the laws are so damn strict?


----------



## GypsyBush (Oct 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> bwaaaaahahahahahahah
> 
> Would you like some pork wings with that?


Yeah... but only if I can get a whole squadron's worth.... hahaha... I need an ounce you know...?!?!!

and, uh ... I'm with you on the cooltube... and HTG better pay shipping and some... they have cost me time and money... and I'm easy but I'm not cheap...lol...

Cheers Mate...

Gypsy...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 14, 2008)

NLXSK1 said:


> They will grow a taproot completely submerged in water?


 No. Usually what folks do is soak a bean in water for only a few hours to get it to crack (and that's not really necessary) then transfer it to a damp paper towel in a partly open plastic bag, where it is left until the taproot emerges. 

The bean will crack and put out a taproot if put simply on a damp paper towel in a partly opened plastic bag which is put in a warm (28-30C) place, top of the fridge, horticultural heat mat, etc.



bleezyg420 said:


> ALb, what are ounce prices in AUS, since the laws are so damn strict?


 400/z in most capital cities.



GypsyBush said:


> Yeah... but only if I can get a whole squadron's worth.... hahaha... I need an ounce you know...?!?!!


Hell, I could eat a couple of pounds of them things. Mmmmmm MMM! 



> and, uh ... I'm with you on the cooltube... and HTG better pay shipping and some... they have cost me time and money... and I'm easy but I'm not cheap...lol...


Tell, me, did they mark the pkg 'FRAGILE - GLASS' or anything radical like that? _*Somebody*_ dropped the ball, right on their tiny little dick. Fuckers.


----------



## bleezyg420 (Oct 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 400/z in most capital cities.


Thats club prices, they get upto $420 here in cali. Do you have any nug shots of your product?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 14, 2008)

bleezyg420 said:


> Thats club prices, they get upto $420 here in cali. Do you have any nug shots of your product?


----------



## GypsyBush (Oct 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Tell, me, did they mark the pkg 'FRAGILE - GLASS' or anything radical like that? _*Somebody*_ dropped the ball, right on their tiny little dick. Fuckers.


Al... I am having a hard time believing it was damaged in transit...

The Bulb came bubble wrapped, inside of the reflector, well padded I might add...

The reflector itself was placed in a padded box, which was in turn insideof another box.... there were even "corner fitter upper" dealies on the box to keep it from sliding inside of the other...

All of the packaging was intact... both outer and inner boxes are mint, inside and out... not even a scratch on the big red fragile stickers...

I suppose someone could have dropped/thrown it flat on the ground... but I imagine that if the impact was enough to knock the welds on the reflector glass frame, it wold have broken the glass... I think...

And the bulb... the internal components broken to pieces, but the outside just barely cracked... I guess anything is possible... but with that much glass in there... the metal parts got bent?

At the same time, I cannot believe that HTG would ship from their "return" pile....

I don't know... frustrating as hell... pretty soon I'm gonna run outta time and won't be able to harvest before I get out of this hotel room... Sucks to nurse them along to chop them 2 weeks early..!!!


----------



## GypsyBush (Oct 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


>



With a little kid's voice... I WANT THAT ONE !!!! lol....

Nice Al... thanks for sharing....


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 14, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> And the bulb... the internal components broken to pieces, but the outside just barely cracked.


Yep, that's a good clue. It was almost certainly damaged in transit. Someone either dropped the box from a height or deliberately threw it. 

Was it a plain brown box or was there some indication of the items contained?


----------



## bleezyg420 (Oct 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


>


What strains do you grow? As for the concentrate. Does it saturate ? If you wanted any gens like these al, I think I could help an aussie out. Ya family man.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 14, 2008)

Just Sweet Tooth #4. The hash is plain ol finger hash, rolled off my fingertips when manicuring. Nice little treat for the manicurist.


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## GypsyBush (Oct 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yep, that's a good clue. It was almost certainly damaged in transit. Someone either dropped the box from a height or deliberately threw it.
> 
> Was it a plain brown box or was there some indication of the items contained?


Plain brown box... fragile handle with care sticker on top... and a small sticker that says... EZ8.. I guess that could be identified along with the HTG supply tag... but ...

The whole thing is kinda pointless now... I need to call them tomorrow...

I hope they don't make me deal with the postal orifice... collecting insurance and what not... that would take months...


----------



## HATCH (Oct 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


>


Nice Harvest My Brother!!~~Look's To Be Some Dank-Ass-Fire!!!EH!!~~Thank's For Sharing & Happy Smoke'n~~~


----------



## Old in the Way (Oct 14, 2008)

> Even worse are the hydroponic cannabis laws in NSW, which will put you (meaning ME) away for 20 years.


Whoa, I would face a mandatory minimum for my op where I am but likely could stay out of the pen with enough money and the right lawyer. Worst case scenario would be 2-3 yrs back on the street in a few (6-9) months..........but damn man I had no idea it was like that in da land down unda. Thats friggin awful!

Sry man.....I am going to be depressed for a while after hearing that. I just assumed (my mistake I know) that the US was the worst.


----------



## bleezyg420 (Oct 14, 2008)

HATCH said:


> Nice Harvest My Brother!!~~Look's To Be Some Dank-Ass-Fire!!!EH!!~~Thank's For Sharing & Happy Smoke'n~~~


Prefect calyxes, marvelous !


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 14, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> Plain brown box... fragile handle with care sticker on top... and a small sticker that says... EZ8.. I guess that could be identified along with the HTG supply tag... but ...
> 
> The whole thing is kinda pointless now... I need to call them tomorrow...
> 
> I hope they don't make me deal with the postal orifice... collecting insurance and what not... that would take months...



I was hoping at least that they didn't send it out in pkging which clearly identified the contents as a horticultural light. There's some pot-hatin' cocks out there who do work for postal/courier servs. My hydro shop had a small problem with a postal dickhead who smashed stuff that was identifiable as grow gear. Soon as the shop stopped putting return address labels that included the full company name (ie Joe's Inc. instead Joe's Hydroponics Inc), the vandalism stopped. The smasher was later found to be a godbotherer in the employ of the postal svc who reckoned his god told him to save the children from merryjewwanna...  

Hope it gets sorted soon & painlessly.


----------



## GypsyBush (Oct 14, 2008)

Freaking Frackers...!!!!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 14, 2008)

yeah, I've even heard of one freaking fracker who dragged the entire US into a war cos his god told him to. Can't remember his name, offhand. Sounded something like 'pubic hair,' I think, just can't recall.


----------



## GypsyBush (Oct 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> yeah, I've even heard of one freaking fracker who dragged the entire US into a war cos his god told him to. Can't remember his name, offhand. Sounded something like 'pubic hair,' I think, just can't recall.


I can't wait to go back home Al... get away from all this bullshit...

I live in the Bush... 400 miles past the last highway...

I cannot tell you how happy I am to be out there and know that I can survive regardless of the bunch of clowns running the US right now...

Freaking Frackers... !!!

But uh... I know you were probably being polite by not commenting on my miniatures... but I got tough skin... lol... 

what did you think???


----------



## bleezyg420 (Oct 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> yeah, I've even heard of one freaking fracker who dragged the entire US into a war cos his god told him to. Can't remember his name, offhand. Sounded something like 'pubic hair,' I think, just can't recall.


Yes the us is retarded, this we know.


----------



## paperfetti (Oct 15, 2008)

Yo al,i had 1 yellow dot on one of my leaves (camera phone too crappy to get in closer to see),but when i checked on it today it had like very light yellow specs on it,but the 1 yellow dot is the darkest9 or brightest)..seedlings are only 2weeks old..riu buddy said probably nothing to worry bout,but im gettn 2nd opinion on this to be sure.

#2 i changed the water in res. Today as well because there was a "white film" floating on top of res. (kinna like when i get my 7 yr old out of tub from playing outside all day he leaves a ring around the tub) except this ring is white lol..any thoughts?
Thanx al for everything..you really took part in changing my life (for the better) chi-ching!!


----------



## crypies00 (Oct 15, 2008)

Is there a reason you haven't set up a flood table for your clones? I got 5/5 germination from bag and are now in RW cubes. But from what I understand it's going to be 2 months before I can sex. And being lazy (which you claim you are  ), I don't see why one would spend the time hand watering clones? Or in my case little babies.


----------



## GypsyBush (Oct 15, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Hope it gets sorted soon & painlessly.


Thanks for the support man... it's a bummer...

But HTG is going to make it right... even in my opinion...

They are shipping me the order I placed... with the cool tube...

But told me to go ahead and keep the stuff here as a spare... (170 bucks in shipping explains that one...)

So I get a spare ballast and hood... taped and banged up but free (for my hassle) I guess...

Now if only the *postal orifice *could get the box here without smashing it, that would be fantastic...!!!!

So, I will still plan on the 170CFM centrifugal fan on the cool tube and the 265 CFM squirrel cage as the exhaust... that is what you said right..?

Thanks Al...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 15, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> what did you think???


of what?


bleezyg420 said:


> Yes the us is retarded, this we know.


Considering I was born in and lived in the US for the first 30-odd years of my life, I got used to the idea of American retardation some decades ago.


paperfetti said:


> Yo al,i had 1 yellow dot on one of my leaves (camera phone too crappy to get in closer to see),but when i checked on it today it had like very light yellow specs on it,but the 1 yellow dot is the darkest9 or brightest)..seedlings are only 2weeks old..riu buddy said probably nothing to worry bout,but im gettn 2nd opinion on this to be sure.


If you want my opinion, I'll need pix, otherwise I'm just guessing.



> #2 i changed the water in res. Today as well because there was a "white film" floating on top of res. (kinna like when i get my 7 yr old out of tub from playing outside all day he leaves a ring around the tub) except this ring is white lol..any thoughts?


 Could be lots of things, but pathogen activity (i.e. pythium, fusarium) generally appears as a gelatinous gack _*in *_the water, not stuff floating *on *it. If you see a ring of stuff in your tank above the waterline, it's probably dried nutrient salts. 


crypies00 said:


> Is there a reason you haven't set up a flood table for your clones? I got 5/5 germination from bag and are now in RW cubes. But from what I understand it's going to be 2 months before I can sex. And being lazy (which you claim you are  ), I don't see why one would spend the time hand watering clones? Or in my case little babies.


The amount of water one must give to clones prior to setting root is VERY fiddly and quite often changes on a plant-by-plant basis. One day, some cubes may be very dry by watering time but others may still be rather toward the wet side. Once they've set root, their water requirements go WAY up. Prior to setting root, handwatering is the only way to go if you want high success rates. Once they've popped out a decent spray of roots, it's much more possible to automate watering. Automating a way of putting 10-15ml of water on each of 30 clones (in my case) is downright difficult albeit possible in some manner, but I have yet to work out a way for an automated system to pick up a clone and judge the amt of water that clone needs by weight. If you can work it out, let us all know!


GypsyBush said:


> Thanks for the support man... it's a bummer...
> 
> But HTG is going to make it right... even in my opinion...
> 
> They are shipping me the order I placed... with the cool tube...


That's as good as you can expect, I reckon.



> But told me to go ahead and keep the stuff here as a spare... (170 bucks in shipping explains that one...)
> 
> So I get a spare ballast and hood... taped and banged up but free (for my hassle) I guess...


hey, the spare ballast is a big bonus! Can't complain about that!


> Now if only the *postal orifice *could get the box here without smashing it, that would be fantastic...!!!!


yeah, fingers crossed...


> So, I will still plan on the 170CFM centrifugal fan on the cool tube and the 265 CFM squirrel cage as the exhaust... that is what you said right..?


yep, that's what sounds best, to me anyway. My pair of 1000s in series cooltubes do OK with a 150mm, 200CFM axial- your 170 should handle your lighting OK.


----------



## FLtoker (Oct 15, 2008)

Hey Al, I;m using GH FloraNova Grow and will be using bloom for flower. Does H2O2 work with FloraNova? Or should I use something else? Thanks. You're the man.


----------



## GypsyBush (Oct 15, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> of what?


My miniatures... we're 7 weeks into flowering and the biggest plant is 6" tall by 13" wide...

You know... the squadron of flying pigs...? I think I'm halfway there... if only I could catch a few more of those fuckers I'd have an ounce....!!! lol....

This is my first indoor grow... and I used an AeroGarden...which is being replaced by DWC with the 600... if it ever gets here in one piece... hahaha!... not funny...

Cheers..!!

G


----------



## BigBudBalls (Oct 15, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Could be lots of things, but pathogen activity (i.e. pythium, fusarium) generally appears as a gelatinous gack _*in *_the water, not stuff floating *on *it. If you see a ring of stuff in your tank above the waterline, it's probably dried nutrient salts.


Now that is an *awesome* tip/rule of thumb for a hydro newbie. Thanks!

(could the flotsam be 'albino algae'? )


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 15, 2008)

FLtoker said:


> I;m using GH FloraNova Grow and will be using bloom for flower. Does H2O2 work with FloraNova? Or should I use something else?


GH sales lit says FloraNova is part organic. We just don't know which part! You thus should not use H2O2 with FloraNova.



GypsyBush said:


> My miniatures... we're 7 weeks into flowering and the biggest plant is 6" tall by 13" wide...


Looks very bonsai-ish. 



> You know... the squadron of flying pigs...? I think I'm halfway there... if only I could catch a few more of those fuckers I'd have an ounce....!!! lol....


Greasy little bastards aren't they? HPS is a very good degreaser.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 15, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> Now that is an *awesome* tip/rule of thumb for a hydro newbie. Thanks!


Really? OK! 



> (could the flotsam be 'albino algae'? )


Either that or the much fabled room temperature snow. 

Beats me what's floating on that tank, esp w/o seeing it.


----------



## GypsyBush (Oct 15, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Looks very bonsai-ish.
> 
> Greasy little bastards aren't they? HPS is a very good degreaser.


I think I am ready to move on to bigger and better things now.... but it has been fun and I learned a lot...

I must say that I am a bit surprised... they are turning out better than me or any of my mates thought they would...

As for the degreaser... yeah.. freaking frackers... but you just wait... next batch.. I bet you i'll catch me a squadron or two... lol...

Thanks for all your great help Al... You Rock... (sorry no patience to go get a rocking chair..lol..)

Best of luck...!!!

Gypsy...


----------



## fredfred (Oct 15, 2008)

Hi Al, I was wondering whether you could tell me if the smell from a gel type air freshener like this one















when hung in a properly vented space would permeate into a flowering plant and affect the bud in anyway?.

Thanks for your time and generous sharing of your knowledge, you're a diamond imo.


----------



## doktorgreenthumb420 (Oct 15, 2008)

hey al i have read many of your posts and i have a question i have a ppp from nirvana mother plant that is very healthy and actively growing and i know you dont use aero cloner anymore but i have had bad results from cloning this plant i know this is not due to anaroebic pathogens or algae cause i use 35% grade H2O2 at 1.5ml per L and i had different strains in same aerocloner that rooted just fine ..

my question is do you know what might be wrong? is there such a thing as a mother plant that just doesnt clone well ?

also she came from a clone and all those rooted nicely it is just this one strain that is giving me problems ....well i should say this one plant because i had no trouble with previous mother ....also she is in a general hydroponics water farm module and is about 2 months old the clones i take range from 9 inches to some as small as 3 inches 


my cloner is on time tho i can logically determine that cause other strains have no problem at all 

your input would be greatly valued 

thanks


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 15, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> I think I am ready to move on to bigger and better things now.... but it has been fun and I learned a lot...
> 
> I must say that I am a bit surprised... they are turning out better than me or any of my mates thought they would...


To be deadly honest, they look exactly like I would expect. The low intensity of fluoro lighting produces a characteristically low density bud. It's the foliar penetration power of high intensity light which makes the solid nugs.


> As for the degreaser... yeah.. freaking frackers... but you just wait... next batch.. I bet you i'll catch me a squadron or two... lol...


When you see the result of a big HPS compared to what you're getting now, you will _*shit bricks*_. 


> Thanks for all your great help Al... You Rock... (sorry no patience to go get a rocking chair..lol..)


 ah well, then, here ya go. 









fredfred said:


> Hi Al, I was wondering whether you could tell me if the smell from a gel type air freshener like this one
> 
> when hung in a properly vented space would permeate into a flowering plant and affect the bud in anyway?.


It sure can flavour your buds. I tried eucalyptus oil and naphthalene as counter-scents many moons ago and wound up with a couple batches that smelt of cough drops and moth balls.  If you use counter-scents, put them in the exhaust duct or at the end of it instead of in the airmass with the plants. 



> Thanks for your time and generous sharing of your knowledge, you're a diamond imo.


Nah, I'm still a lump of coal, I haven't been under enough pressure to be a proper diamond. 



doktorgreenthumb420 said:


> my question is do you know what might be wrong? is there such a thing as a mother plant that just doesnt clone well ?
> 
> also she came from a clone and all those rooted nicely it is just this one strain that is giving me problems ....well i should say this one plant because i had no trouble with previous mother ...


I had such inconsistent results with aerocloners that it is hard for me to say what was attributable to DNA and what to the cloning method. 

However, with RW cubes on a 30C heatmat in a properly temp controlled clonebox, I have gotten very consistent results with any strain, give or take a couple of days to showing roots. It's safe to say I've never met a strain of cannabis I couldn't clone nor really any that were significantly more difficult to clone than others, given correct conds for the mums & clones in the process. 

I would wager a guess you have just one problem plant. Some just fail to thrive for a variety of reasons. The progeny from the problem plant should be OK if given correct conds, tho. Once you get some clones going of the recalcitrant mum, thank it for all the clones and send it to the compost of the great beyond.


----------



## flamdrags420 (Oct 15, 2008)

I'm on page 134. Been reading every thread for the past 4 days while home on breaks and such from work and play. Not sure when this ride ends, but I'm learning so much. Don't even bother replying. I wont see it until a few days. But just a pre thanks for all this knowledge my rockwool brain is tryingto suck up.

Ok fuck it. I'll ask some questions and will find it in a few days. 

I'm just veginging some bag seeds to learn how to do this. in the mean time I'm learning as much as I can as I collect supplies for the room itself. I have lumber and ducting and some hardie backer board. A new 200 AMP box with a sub panel box that will be in the grow room. 

My first question is. When I plan on venting my HPS flowering light. That ducting along with my exhaust out is going to go vertically from my base ment up and out the roof. i've seen your flow charts and understand fan sizes and such and why you have them the way you do. But will the exit fans on both the room and the lights be enough to go up what essiantially is 2 stories? (main floor of house and then attic then finally the roof ala 20 feet straight up from the grow room).

Should I add an additional fan at the attic level somewhere? 

If I do need to do this (adding the additional exit fan) and plan on having a inline carbon fliter on the room exhaust venting, would I want this before or after the filter. (I'm saying carbon filter but I think its actualy the charcoal filter I'm on brain nute lock atm....better check my ph and add some coffee to my personal mix)

I'm seeing lots of different kinds of HPS lamps out there. What kind of qualities/attributes do I want to look for when selecting lamps. I know I want the reds and oranges, but is there more to it than that? Efficiency is important. watt/lumens. Anything else? 

I really like your drawings you have. They really help a lot. Your grow room looks pretty efficent and well maintained and organized. I was wondering if you would do a blue print type drawing of your SOG op. Not neccessarily 100% accurate in the way each area sits to the next (ie you may or may not have your clone box right next to the flowering area. This doesn't matter as you can put it upstairs or in the other room) But what I'm looking for is to look and see your area footprints and sizes along with your sizes of the trays (which we know already ) just so I and others can better visualize the proportions of lights, room size, plants per area etc so that if we can't duplicate your exact op, we could scale it down, and be able to scale it down as a whole rather than individually. God I hope that makes sense but if not that's cool too. I can we write out that questi on better later along with a sketch of what I'm looking for.

There seems to be a good debate on MH vs T5s on cloning and vegging. I totally understand the cloning reasons for using these types. Is the reason you use the MH (or at this time I'm reading this on page 134 you are using a HPS still on your mums) is to regrain their branches after triming for clones faster than a T5 allows? This is so the veg op can keep up with the flowering cycle in that room?

I understand totally your comments on the LEO and having seeds delivered to your house. What strategies do you suggest on obtaining the seeds? I'm scared shitless to order them now and have them delivered here. But I really don't want any friends getting in trouble or having heat on them either. Can you discuss more in depth on arrangements for seeds? 

Thanks for all of your work.

I hope i've managed to asks questions that are helpful for others too that haven't been covered as much or for those who would like more details.


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## doktorgreenthumb420 (Oct 15, 2008)

Al i appreciate your input i have read your clone method and i actually went for RW cubes just recently and i had a horticulture heat mat but it actually is broke ..no heat ... all the clones i took look great tho cept for some wilting from water neglect but i know i will get a good turnout anyways i dint clone any of the ppp problem power plant hehe but i will try right now and i also will use the cut and split stem technique 

so basically i am on it bro lets see if the Al cloning method can trumph these problematic ppp mother 

oh i also have a two week cloning schedule for SOG and i personally tried your staight to the bloom room after roots method they are short i take cuttings usually 4 inches long and wait two weeks for prolific roots they doubled in height with a EC of 1.6 of general hydroponics and some open sesame from fox farms ... they look awesome by the way and i will be able to cut out veg time and pack more plants in cause of shortness of plants 


ok time to take some clones and stick these bitches


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## GypsyBush (Oct 15, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> To be deadly honest, they look exactly like I would expect.


Well... there's the voice of experience..!!!! (and I am not being sarcastic)




Al B. Fuct said:


> The low intensity of fluoro lighting produces a characteristically low density bud. It's the foliar penetration power of high intensity light which makes the solid nugs.


Actually Al, these have been under 1 x 35 HPS, 2 x 70 HPS and 1 x 100 MH... 

But I know they are all low intensity... I was hoping they would turn out better than CFLs... but I am not too disappointed....

I think it is acceptable for a first indoor grow... inside of a night stand in a hotel room...




Al B. Fuct said:


> When you see the result of a big HPS compared to what you're getting now, you will _*shit bricks*_.


Oh, I am sure... that is why I got it... there is no comparison... 

I just started miniature because I wanted to see what it was all about... scared of the "hydro" thing...

I know some good gardens... real shit... I know what it's like...

It is my first indoor... but I've just always had the ability to grow outdoors (live in South America for a long time..)






Al B. Fuct said:


> ah well, then, here ya go.


Thanks!!! Your chair looks comfy!!!


----------



## Ghost420 (Oct 16, 2008)

hey al what are your thoughts on using UVA-UVB to increase thc production? i have never heard any conclusive results on this.

also some one told me that if you remove the glass sheilding in a hallogen work light(i know they cant be used for growth) and expose the radiation from it to ur plants for 10 mins a day it is effective what do u think about this?


----------



## paperfetti (Oct 16, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> If you want my opinion, I'll need pix, otherwise I'm just guessing.
> 
> Could be lots of things, but pathogen activity (i.e. pythium, fusarium) generally appears as a gelatinous gack _*in *_the water, not stuff floating *on *it. If you see a ring of stuff in your tank above the waterline, it's probably dried nutrient salts.


 ok pic #1 yellow spots on 1 leaf..otherwise plant looks very healthy
pic #2 i need you to get YOUR glasses out for this one..if u look closely u can see the stem,but theres no leaves on the stem..just a stem growing!! WTF??


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 16, 2008)

flamdrags420 said:


> I'm on page 134. Been reading every thread for the past 4 days while home on breaks and such from work and play.


 well, _you're_ a glutton for punishment. 



> Should I add an additional fan at the attic level somewhere?


Good call. Air has mass and a column of it from basement to attic may benefit from another blower inline, the attic's a good place. Use a centrif blower on the exhaust down in the basement. If it's a good quality centrif, you might get away with only one, but leave room in your plans for a second blower. Also consider dumping air into the attic instead of through the roof. Will muffle fan noise and dissipate air through several existing attic vents. 


> If I do need to do this (adding the additional exit fan) and plan on having a inline carbon fliter on the room exhaust venting, would I want this before or after the filter.


 You can get carbon filters which mount inline, but most have a duct flange on one end and pass air through the sides of the barrel. Filters of the latter type can have air pushed or pulled through them. For accessibility's sake, you'll probably want to have your filter in the room with the exhaust puling air through it. 



> (I'm saying carbon filter but I think its actualy the charcoal filter


 The material is activated carbon aka activated charcoal. We know what you're talking about.  

Just don't make the mistake (like one poor noob a while back) of thinking the material was coal instead of charcoal. Bit of a difference. 


> I'm seeing lots of different kinds of HPS lamps out there. What kind of qualities/attributes do I want to look for when selecting lamps. I know I want the reds and oranges, but is there more to it than that? Efficiency is important. watt/lumens. Anything else?


 Most HPS lamps of a given power dissipation generate similar amounts of luminous output. The exception are the very cheapest Chinese generic HPS lamps, which can put out significantly lower output than you expect. Don't go with the very cheapest lamp tube if you can avoid it. Brand named lamps (GE, Sylvania, Sunmaster, etc) will deliver good durability and will make the output you expect. 



> I really like your drawings you have. They really help a lot. Your grow room looks pretty efficent and well maintained and organized. I was wondering if you would do a blue print type drawing of your SOG op.


 I'm nobody's idea of an artist or a draftsman, so this is as close to what you want as you're gonna get!







The width dimension is about 9', the depth is about 8' and the room is about 7' from floor to ceiling. I've only showed the plants schematically. The mum tray holds 10 plants, each flowering tray holds 23. The clonebox is located outside the grow room. 



> There seems to be a good debate on MH vs T5s on cloning and vegging. I totally understand the cloning reasons for using these types.


 There's no debate, at least among people who know their lighting. I would not mess around with T5s. They may be relatively bright fluoros but they're still fluoros, so they have pissweak intensity compared to any HID light- no matter what any well-sold T5 evangelist will tell you. They're too big for a clonebox and not powerful enough to grow mums with the speed and vigor I need. They perform poorly in lumens/watt compared to HID lighting. 

You'll get much more bang for your buck (both purchase and operating cost) from a small MH or HPS for veg. Clones don't need to be pounded with light, so CFLs or 24" cylindrical fluoros are fine for the clonebox. 



> What strategies do you suggest on obtaining the seeds?


 Times have changed since I last ordered beans, which was back in 2002. Customs is intercepting beans much more regularly these days. I had mine sent to the house of a non-growing friend who had just moved into a new place. The beans were addressed in the name of the previous occupant and when received, put on a shelf for a while. In case anyone came knocking, the cover story was that the pkg was received and since not addressed to the current occupant, were due to be RTSed, but simply had not been posted just yet. 



GypsyBush said:


> I was hoping they would turn out better than CFLs... but I am not too disappointed....


 Ah, OK, now I remember. I would have expected better out of them too, but as you note, those are among the very lowest output HID lights you can get. I usually would not recommend using anything smaller than a 150HPS.


Ghost420 said:


> hey al what are your thoughts on using UVA-UVB to increase thc production? i have never heard any conclusive results on this.


That's because there *are *no conclusive results on the issue. Presently classed as 'wives' tale.' Most plants which make a sticky substance or neurotoxins/psychoactives do so to dissuade browsing animals or marauding insects. Cannabis is indigenous to temperate latitudes where UV levels are not very high. It's hard to argue that the plant makes resin or the THC in the resin as a response to UV exposure at such latitudes. 



> also some one told me that if you remove the glass sheilding in a hallogen work light(i know they cant be used for growth) and expose the radiation from it to ur plants for 10 mins a day it is effective what do u think about this?


Chalk another bit of bad info to 'someone told me.' Patently bad idea. Halogen lighting doesn't make any UV, with or without glass covers. Halogen lighting is incandescent, meaning it makes light from a hot wire. The main output from halogen (>80%) is IR heat and red-yellow spectrum visible light. If you want UV, you need lighting that produces light from an arc, not a glowing filament. HPS & MH make lots of UV, but MH makes about 2x as much as HPS. 

I would not waste any time or money adding UV lighting to a grow until someone comes up with some conclusive, peer-reviewed data proving that cannabis responds in _any way at all_ to UV, and at present, such does not exist. 



paperfetti said:


> ok pic #1 yellow spots on 1 leaf..otherwise plant looks very healthy


Looks overwatered. I see saturated RW, too.


> pic #2 i need you to get YOUR glasses out for this one..if u look closely u can see the stem,but theres no leaves on the stem..just a stem growing!! WTF??


 I can't see anything but a partly saturated RW cube. With no leaves, it won't last long.


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## paperfetti (Oct 16, 2008)

What wont last?!! Pic 1 or pic 2??


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 16, 2008)

did you read my post?


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## davedub69 (Oct 16, 2008)

Al, thanks again for all the killer info. that you pass onto us!!  I was curious if you had any new ideas for your grows to increase yield or make things easier/simpler? I would guess adding Co2 would be next addition if the additional cost of A/C wasn't an issue.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 16, 2008)

If I was going to add anything to my op, yes, CO2/aircon would be next. I have not been able to justify the cost of doing those to date, but may sometime in future.


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## Return of the Spork (Oct 16, 2008)

Hey Al, 

I was hoping you could use your experience to guesstimate something for me. 

Setup info in case any is useful...

```
Lighting is 400W MH in Cooltube (flowering will be 400W HPS)
Nutes currently at 1.5 EC
I use 1.7ml/L of 35% h2o2
Lighting is on 18/6
Temps tend to hover around 23-25C
Strain is Jack Herer
~6 weeks old, preflowers ablazin'
Bout 30cm tall
```
I have 75cm from top of medium to closest I would want them to the light. I was planning on taking my first clones next week or the week after. How big should the clones be to estimate a max 75cm final height?

I imagine I wouldn't get as much vertical growth as yours due to lighting alone, but in your experience, when you take shorter clones, do they still grow at a similar rate based off the initial height? (like 2x, 3x, etc). I could be wrong but I think I remember you saying something about taking clones 9inches or so and ending at a meter? Is that about right?

The fork in me (and my wallet) says to clone as soon as I can, and the spoon in me says to wait till they are like 20cm. If my cut locations are correct, the biggest clones would be about 12cm long at the moment.

But hell, from the pic you might just tell me to wait another month at least as is, haha.

I marked where I assume I should be cutting when the time comes, if I am way off I am sure you will tell me.


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## Hydrokronics (Oct 16, 2008)

Hey Al, I was hoping you could help me out with a co2 issue. I got a hydrofarm regulator kit and the distribution tube didnt have any pre-drilled holes in it and there was nothing about it in the instructions. I just need to know what size holes there should be and how far apart i should make them. I dont want there to be a pressure issue or there to be any reason why im not getting the full potential from my co2 system. Thanks for your time


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## grandpabear3 (Oct 16, 2008)

'sup with the elite super snob badge that you said you didnt need or want a while back when i asked you about it??????? have you gone over to the dark side??????


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## sparkafire (Oct 16, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> 'sup with the elite super snob badge that you said you didnt need or want a while back when i asked you about it??????? have you gone over to the dark side??????


Very interesting point bugs!! I didn't even notice that Al had been knighted Sir Fuct... I am on bended knee Sir ABF 

And that's bended knee Al Not KNEES!!!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 16, 2008)

Return of the Spork said:


> How big should the clones be to estimate a max 75cm final height?


 I haven't flowered with a 400 in some years, but you can't go too far wrong if you cut them to 100-150mm. 



> I imagine I wouldn't get as much vertical growth as yours due to lighting alone,


 agreed. 



> but in your experience, when you take shorter clones, do they still grow at a similar rate based off the initial height? (like 2x, 3x, etc).


 Yes, they ought to finish up about 3x the starting height. 



> I could be wrong but I think I remember you saying something about taking clones 9inches or so and ending at a meter? Is that about right?


Well remembered. That's how it's been working. 



> The fork in me (and my wallet) says to clone as soon as I can, and the spoon in me says to wait till they are like 20cm. If my cut locations are correct, the biggest clones would be about 12cm long at the moment.


Works for me. Run with it. 



> I marked where I assume I should be cutting when the time comes, if I am way off I am sure you will tell me.


 is there a larger version of that pic around somewhere?




Hydrokronics said:


> Hey Al, I was hoping you could help me out with a co2 issue. I got a hydrofarm regulator kit and the distribution tube didnt have any pre-drilled holes in it and there was nothing about it in the instructions. I just need to know what size holes there should be and how
> 
> far apart i should make them. I dont want there to be a pressure issue or there to be any reason why im not getting the full potential from my co2 system. Thanks for your time


Good question. I really don't know, mainly because I don't know the amt of pressure downstream from your reg and how many holes you could potentially make. I'd inquire of Hydrofarm and see what they say.

I'd be inclined to start with small holes (.5mm) every 150mm and see if you still get flow from the holes furthest from the reg. 

At the end of the day, you can't stuff it up too badly if you have circ fans going in the room. The CO2 will be homogenised into the room airmass and be everywhere anyway. 


bugsrnme said:


> 'sup with the elite super snob badge that you said you didnt need or want a while back when i asked you about it??????? have you gone over to the dark side??????


I wanted the 'elite' features for being able to see who left rep comments. I asked rollie if I could have the features without the 'elite' badge, but he'd have had to have done some template refrobbing to suit it, which I agreed was too much work. 

I got this little bit of vengeful sweetness from some butthurt clown who I pwned, who is so stung by losing an argument to me that now he's gotta leave nasty anon rep comments. He thought he'd _*remain*_ anonymous... he thought wrong.



> quick drying - the... 10-16-2008 03:01 AM Greymattertripp Your advice is lame, your ganj must suck balls


Anonymous no more, trollfag. 

You know what to do, folks.


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## flamdrags420 (Oct 16, 2008)

thanks for reading through my long post above and responding to my comments and questions. I'll be back again in a month or so to ask more, but always will be reading and taking notes.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 16, 2008)

no worries


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## Smallsetup (Oct 16, 2008)

Hey Al B. I've been checkin out your posts for a while now.. Was just curious if you could help me out with a zinc deficiency i'm having. I'm running a homemade aero setup with AN Sensi grow, Hygrozyme, Superthrive and GH Subculture. I'm getting yellowing on the leaves and the look dull. The veins are still green, the plants arent wilting and they are still growing.. I've been reading up and everything i see points to zinc. I looked at the "guaranteed analysis" on my nutes and I don't see any chelated zinc. I used to used Flora Nutes and those did have it. My question is, How can I correct this without changing my nutes? Any additives that you know of? Thanks for any help you can give!


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 16, 2008)

Smallsetup said:


> I'm getting yellowing on the leaves and the look dull.


...which sounds as much like overwatering as Zn def... but...



> The veins are still green, the plants arent wilting and they are still growing..


..._that_ specifically _doesn't_ sounds like overwatering. 

How are the roots looking, anyway? All bright white? Got plant pix? I'd like to see the leaves, if I can. 

As far as a chelated Zn sup, ya got me. I've checked both my catalogues with the hydro equip wholesalers I deal with and they don't stock any Zn sups.

If AN Sensi is fully inorganic, you might replace the Hygrozyme with H2O2 50% grade at 1ml/L every 3-4 days.


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## Return of the Spork (Oct 16, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> is there a larger version of that pic around somewhere?


It's a thumbnail, so should be clickable. However if maybe links are off this should do the trick


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## Smallsetup (Oct 17, 2008)

Allrighty then.. At a second look, my leaves aren't wilting, they are kinda curling under and the edges and tips are burning.. I don't know, nute burn or lockout? Keep in mind this is kind of an aero setup.. The pump is in the res with the plants and has four sprayers on it. I'm running it 15 mins. on and 15 off. Maybe I am overwatering, but i was told the pump should run constantly? The roots look pretty good, not completely white, but they dont look rotten either. I'm stumped and i don't wanna go throw any money away on anything that's a waste. However i might try the H202 instead of the Hygrozyme, that makes sense to me..


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## Smallsetup (Oct 17, 2008)

Smallsetup said:


> Allrighty then.. At a second look, my leaves aren't wilting, they are kinda curling under and the edges and tips are burning.. I don't know, nute burn or lockout? Keep in mind this is kind of an aero setup.. The pump is in the res with the plants and has four sprayers on it. I'm running it 15 mins. on and 15 off. Maybe I am overwatering, but i was told the pump should run constantly? The roots look pretty good, not completely white, but they dont look rotten either. I'm stumped and i don't wanna go throw any money away on anything that's a waste. However i might try the H202 instead of the Hygrozyme, that makes sense to me..


Duh.. forgot the pics sorry...


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## kpw555 (Oct 17, 2008)

Good morning Mr. Fuct, I am here once again to ask very politely if you will look over my cloning setup https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/119268-first-hydro-grow.html#post1480125 and offer any wisdom that you might have.

I have read hundreds of your posts and I trust and value your advice.

Thank you in advance.


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## thegoods217 (Oct 17, 2008)

Hey AL,

My clones in rockwool cubes are starting to get this white powdery substance on them. Is there a way to get rid of this white stuff? I have been feeding them only ph adjusted water w/ 30% h202 horticulture grade. I was thinking of sticking them into the DWC system I made and top feeding them until they get roots. Good or bad idea?


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## Fman (Oct 17, 2008)

AL- I know you answered this question before , but I cant find the answer. What ppm's are you using in your tanks? Are you still using different levels depending on plant age ( as listed in the 2 week thread), or one level straight across? Thanks (in advance).


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 17, 2008)

Fman said:


> AL- I know you answered this question before , but I cant find the answer. What ppm's are you using in your tanks? Are you still using different levels depending on plant age ( as listed in the 2 week thread), or one level straight across? Thanks (in advance).


He is using 1400ppm in all tanks last I read...


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## fitzyno1 (Oct 17, 2008)

I think Al would be better off answering questions put to him, as most people including myself would only know half the answer. 
Depending what tanks Fman was refering too, Al's mothers tank has 1800ppm.


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## Fman (Oct 17, 2008)

NLX- Thanks for the input.

fitzy- Im interested in the flower tanks, but if the mothers are different Id like to know that also. Also Im sure any info that is incorrectly stated, Al will correct. Thanks for the input.


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## BigBudBalls (Oct 17, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> I think Al would be better off answering questions put to him, as most people including myself would only know half the answer.
> Depending what tanks Fman was refering too, Al's mothers tank has 1800ppm.


ironic? Just in a silly mood. But didn't you just do what you kinda complained about?


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## kpw555 (Oct 17, 2008)

HEE HEE HEE HEE


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## fitzyno1 (Oct 17, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> ironic? Just in a silly mood. But didn't you just do what you kinda complained about?


BBB i wasn't complaining, if i was, i'd be complaining about myself as well (as stated in that comment).
I used that answer (mothers 1800ppm) as an example that most of us only know half the answer to questions put to Al. Most of us could answer the questions put to Al, but he goes into great detail when answering. 
I'm sorry, i'll shut up from now on.


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## BigBudBalls (Oct 17, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> BBB i wasn't complaining, if i was, i'd be complaining about myself as well (as stated in that comment).
> I used that answer (mothers 1800ppm) as an example that most of us only know half the answer to questions put to Al. Most of us could answer the questions put to Al, but he goes into great detail when answering.
> I'm sorry, i'll shut up from now on.


Chill man. It's all love. I said I was in a silly mood. Was just pointing out the humor, thats all.


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 17, 2008)

Fman said:


> NLX- Thanks for the input.
> 
> fitzy- Im interested in the flower tanks, but if the mothers are different Id like to know that also. Also Im sure any info that is incorrectly stated, Al will correct. Thanks for the input.


Fitzy is right about the mothers being higher. I remember 1600-1800ppm...

On some of the often repeated stuff I would like to save Al some carpel tunnel syndrome 

Also, I am modeling my grow almost exactly off of his... Check out my journal


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## fitzyno1 (Oct 17, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> Chill man. It's all love. I said I was in a silly mood. Was just pointing out the humor, thats all.


You're forgiven, LOL


----------



## holmes (Oct 17, 2008)

hi al,
it gets hot in australia in the summer months right?
what are your temps like then?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 18, 2008)

Return of the Spork said:


> I marked where I assume I should be cutting when the time comes, if I am way off I am sure you will tell me.


 Sorry, but you _*are*_ way off. 

Start at the top of the plant and work your way down. Make your first cutting a section of the mainstem. Then move down to lower branches, preserving a node (or two if they're close together) on each branch. Those nodes will become long branches for your next pass of cuts. After a few passes of cuttings, the branches will become thicker. 



Smallsetup said:


> Allrighty then.. At a second look, my leaves aren't wilting, they are kinda curling under and the edges and tips are burning.. I don't know, nute burn or lockout?


 Looks like root probs. 



> Keep in mind this is kind of an aero setup.. The pump is in the res with the plants and has four sprayers on it. I'm running it 15 mins. on and 15 off. Maybe I am overwatering, but i was told the pump should run constantly? The roots look pretty good, not completely white, but they dont look rotten either.


 Yes, it is possible to overwater an aero setup but I'm not sure that's what's happening here. 

If the roots are not bright white i.e. tan or beige, you have root problems. Root disease can be caused by excessive watering (absence of O2 in the rootzone) or pathogens in the nutes. 

Do you see any cloudy gack in the nutes or clinging to the roots? What is the nutrient soln temp? 

What's the pH & EC? 

What nutes are you using? Fully inorganic? 

If using inorganic nutes, you can use H2O2, which I think will fix this problem. Start by dumping the res, clean it and refill with tapwater. No nutes for now. Adj pH to 5.8. Add H2O2 50% grade at 5ml/L. Run this soln for 3 days. Dump and refill, add nutes to 800-1000ppm, adj pH to 5.8. Add H2O2 50% grade @ 1ml/L. Dose the res with H2O2 every 3-4 days. Omit the Hygrozyme, it is protein based and H2O2 will oxidise the proteins. The oxidation will consume the H2O2 before it can attack pathogens. Hygrozyme also does not release O2 into the roots. 

Check the roots in 3-4 days, you should see new white roots forming. Please let me know how you're going in 3-4 days. 

Keep in mind that deficiencies are quite rare when using a commercially made nutrient. pH errors can lock out certain nutes. It should be at 5.8. 



kpw555 said:


> Good morning Mr. Fuct, I am here once again to ask very politely if you will look over my cloning setup https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/119268-first-hydro-grow.html#post1480125 and offer any wisdom that you might have.


 Looks generally good, but I have a couple of concerns. 

Move the tstat down to plant level. That's a real lump of a tstat, looks like it will take up quite a lot of your available space, but if you are not planning on totally filling this clonebox, it'll be OK. 

I see a block of RW in a translucent plastic container. I hope you're not planning to put water in the tray with a plant in the RW. RW must not sit in a puddle. It will remain constantly saturated. This will rot stem tips. RW must be only damp, never wet or saturated. If you are using this only to test your hygrometer, that's cool. If your hygro has not budged off 20% even with a wet RW block in there, it's definitely not working. Try taking the batts out and putting them back in & see if that doesn't make it start working. 

I see a white plastic tray as well, where's the heat mat? RW cubes should sit right on the heatmat, or in a very thin plastic tray placed on the mat. The white tray I see has drain channels in it, which are not needed in this application and also will space the cubes off of the heatmat if it is below said tray. This will reduce heat transfer into the RW cubes. It may yet be OK if there's enough heat transfer into the RW to encourage root formation.



thegoods217 said:


> Hey AL,
> 
> My clones in rockwool cubes are starting to get this white powdery substance on them. Is there a way to get rid of this white stuff?


 On the plants or the cubes? If on the leaves, it's powdery mildew. It's encouraged by excessively high RH & poor air circulation. PM is treated on growroom scale with a sulfur evaporator. For treating individual small plants, spray with a weak lime sulfur soln. 

Lime sulfur liquid concentrate can be had in small (100ml or so) bottles from garden shops. You will find mixing instructions for treating PM on pumpkin leaves, etc. Use half that dosage in a spray. Spray the plants and leave the clonebox door open until leaves have dried. Spray again in 3-4 days, same way. Your clones should have rooted and be ready for flowering by the time the next application is needed. Kit out your flowering room with a sulfur evaporator. Spray with lime sulfur weekly until you get an evaporator. Don't spray buds post wk5.



> I have been feeding them only ph adjusted water w/ 30% h202 horticulture grade. I was thinking of sticking them into the DWC system I made and top feeding them until they get roots. Good or bad idea?


_*real*_ bad idea. the mist from the DWC will saturate the RW and prevent roots from forming. Never put clones into a DWC until there's roots out of the cubes. When you have roots out of the cubes, pot them up in netpots of pellets. Assure that there's at least a 25-50mm thickness of pellets between the RW & any mist from the DWC. 



Fman said:


> AL- I know you answered this question before , but I cant find the answer. What ppm's are you using in your tanks? Are you still using different levels depending on plant age ( as listed in the 2 week thread), or one level straight across? Thanks (in advance).


Flowering tanks are run at 1400, mums run 1600-1800, all 5.8. These numbers are up for review post my recent convo with Canna. While I have had great results with 1600-1800 on the mums, Canna advise not exceeding 1540ppm. On their counsel, I am reducing that to 1000-1100 for the next 2 weeks to see how that goes. I don't know why I'm trying to fix a problem I don't have... but there you go.  I'm also reducing one flowering tank to 1000. When I next apply PK-13-14, I will use 1ml/L, ck the ppm & then add nutes to 1400.



holmes said:


> hi al,
> it gets hot in australia in the summer months right?
> what are your temps like then?


Australia is a _*big *_place, mon. Same size as the lower 48. In the Simpson Desert, it'll be 45C on summer days, 0-5C on winter nights. Darwin is 33C every day in summer, 28C every day in winter. Hobart, down in Tassie, may not get past 25-26C even in peak summer. Sydney has seen 45C on 1 Jan 2007. It was HELL. Syd peak summer days avg 18 (night) to 27C (day), winter days are usually between 7-14C. However, Katoomba, in the Blue Mountains to the west of Sydney, is usually 3-5C cooler year round due to the 1000m elevation vs. Sydney's sea-level elevation. This weather report brought to you by Marijuana. 

See also
The Sydney Morning Herald: national, world, business, entertainment, sport and technology news from Australia's leading newspaper.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 18, 2008)

Just so you know, one of my housemates is watching 'No Direction Home,' a movie about Bob Dylan. 

I'm torn between slashing my wrists with a chainsaw and fretting over that poor cat they're strangling out there in the loungeroom.

Goddamn chainsaw takes two hands, so much for slashing my wrists.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 18, 2008)

thank *fuck*, he's playing the harmonica now. at least that means the fucker ain't SINGING. 

aaarrraaaaagh, my eeeeeeeeeeears.....


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 18, 2008)

You know what's missing from 'Mr Tambourine Man'? Percussion. 

Needs more jingle-jangle machine gun fire. 

At Bob.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 18, 2008)

'EeeEEEeeeeverybody must get stoned', eh?

If it's Bob who's getting stoned, make it chunks of granite.


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## Fman (Oct 18, 2008)

Al- thanks- Im switching from flora nova to canna today. Im getting "goo" in my nutes. Ive been adding h202, it helped, but I think floura nova isnt 100% inorganic. Which tank you lowering to 1000? . Tank 3 (weeks 5+6),is that the one that gets the PK-13-14?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 18, 2008)

Yep, we've encountered FloraNova quite a lot recently in this thread. Is is indeed part organic and incompatible with H2O2. If your system presently has a big pathogen load, hit it once with 50% H2O2 @ 5ml/L or 35% @ 8.5ml/L then return to usual dosage ever 3-4 days. 

I just put a new batch of rooted clones in tray 1; that's the one I'm dropping to 1000. When it comes to wk5, I'll mix that tank with PK @ 1ml/L, ck EC & add Flores to raise it to 1400ppm. 

And here's a question you can answer for me; was the Travelling Wilburys the only good work Zimmerman ever did, and mostly because you can't hear much of him? >


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## Fman (Oct 18, 2008)

I was going to wait until I fixed the goo before I asked, BUT one plant is up and leaves pointing at the light in the morning, but by 6 or 7 at night ( around 16 hours of light) the leaves are dropping, but than in the morning they look good again.What I mean Is as the day goes on they look worse. Am i over watering? I flood 4 times in 16 hours, for 4 min each flood. Plants are 3 weeks from seed, they have 6 sets of leaves and are about 4 " tall. They started in 1.5 RW and are in hydrotron, and they are 1/2" above flood line.I know I should take pics, and I will but that will take all day. Different shots at different times. With-out pics, off the top of your head , what do you think.


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## Fman (Oct 18, 2008)

Zimmerman---- You are as old me. I know his voice always bugged me, Remember when He changed it ? Got worse. But it is his WORDS that make the songs. IMHO


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## Smallsetup (Oct 18, 2008)

Al, thanks alot.. I'm going to buy the H202 today! My roots are tannish and beige.. The Res is cloudy also.. I will follow your steps to the tee and let you know. I just gotta figure out the Per Liter thing here and convert to gallons. Thanks for the Help!


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 18, 2008)

Fman said:


> off the top of your head , what do you think.


 Fix the goo and the roots will recover- they're not keeping up with the foliar growth. 



Fman said:


> Zimmerman---- You are as old me. I know his voice always bugged me, Remember when He changed it ? Got worse. But it is his WORDS that make the songs. IMHO


If his words make the songs, Zimmo should write books. It'd save my hearing and sanity, too. 



Smallsetup said:


> Al, thanks alot.. I'm going to buy the H202 today! My roots are tannish and beige.. The Res is cloudy also.. I will follow your steps to the tee and let you know.


That'll fix it.


> I just gotta figure out the Per Liter thing here and convert to gallons.


Make friends with the metric system. It's INFINITELY easier to deal with litres & millilitres than oz, gallons and the dreaded teaspoon, which changes in size by country. I have two sets of teaspoon measures in my kitchen, one set for US cookbooks, one for Australian.

1US gallon = 3.78L.


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## Phinxter (Oct 18, 2008)

Al B. just wonered if you could comment.
as you know most growers tend to know growers. 
i passed one of my mothers along to a close friends when i retired her and recently asked him how it was doing/did
he informed me that it had stunted pretty badly when he upon another of our local growers advice he removed every fan leaf on it.
i asked why in gods name he would do such a thing.
needless to say the local grower who gave this advice has 3 or 4 growers i know doing this.
and of course i am made to be the devil for suggesting that removing fan leaves, especially in great numbers is bad bad bad.
what are your thoughts on this practice as it seems to be rampant in my area


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 18, 2008)

Fan leaves are the food factories for the plant. They are where the carbs that get assembled into cellulose to build the plant are made. Remove them and the plant will stunt badly, but I reckon that won't surprise anyone much, particularly not your leaf-pickin' mates.

Removing fan leaves with the intent of 'directing energy into budding' is a wives tale and pretty obviously doesn't work.


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## Hydrokronics (Oct 18, 2008)

why would this shop owner ever think this was a good idea for an already stunted plant. I could understand lollipoping it if she was deep into flower but that, even down to the basics doesnt make any sense to do.


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## Phinxter (Oct 18, 2008)

some old time growers actually belive that fan leaves not only block light to the rest of the plant but that they are also a waste of the plants energy to grow.

i however know better, i just seem to be fighting a losing battle 
hell he probably has them using molasses too.
i think i'll just keep my good practices to myself and let the old timers keep on with their wives tales


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## kpw555 (Oct 18, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> That's a real lump of a tstat
> 
> I see a block of RW in a translucent plastic container. I hope you're not planning to put water in the tray with a plant in the RW.
> 
> where's the heat mat?


That is in fact, quite a lump of a tstat Mr. Fuct, as I only need to make 10-15 at a time, it shouldn't get in the way. I will also get the thermister into the right place. 

That setup is only for testing the hygrometer. I have read your thread on cloning very closely and will absolutely not saturate my rockwool.

There is a heat mat under the tray and I don't have the thermostat for it yet. I will test the setup for correct temp before starting to clone.

All the trays that I looked at had these channels in the bottom. But a diligent search I am sure will find me one without channels. 


Thanks once again for your time and expert eye on my setup. 


You are truly a Ganja Guru.


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## BigBudBalls (Oct 18, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> That'll fix it.Make friends with the metric system. It's INFINITELY easier to deal with litres & millilitres than oz, gallons and the dreaded teaspoon, which changes in size by country. I have two sets of teaspoon measures in my kitchen, one set for US cookbooks, one for Australian.
> 
> 1US gallon = 3.78L.


Americans are too dumb and arrogant to figure out the metric system.

"You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing; after they have exhausted every other possibility." -- Winston Churchill.


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## Fman (Oct 18, 2008)

One of mt students told me we dont use the metric system "cuse we are the gansta cuntry.


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## kpw555 (Oct 18, 2008)

The metric system is the bomb!!!!!!!!!


I have been using the metric system for the last ten years where I work. It is a cinch compared to the inch, tsp, cup crap that is totally confusing to convert.

What the hell *IS* a peck anyway?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 18, 2008)

Phinxter said:


> some old time growers actually belive that fan leaves not only block light to the rest of the plant but that they are also a waste of the plants energy to grow.


 You'd have to be from the part of the old school known as 'wrong' to believe that. I'm from the old school college referred to as 'proven and reliable.' 



kpw555 said:


> There is a heat mat under the tray and I don't have the thermostat for it yet. I will test the setup for correct temp before starting to clone.


 Smart cookie. 



BigBudBalls said:


> Americans are too dumb and arrogant to figure out the metric system.


 Not so! Don't forget that I was an American 30-odd years before I was an Australian. If I can do metric, anyone can. I just prefer to think in powers of 10 than try to remember how many arcane units are in each arcane unit. 

I DO think there should be a 'metric foot' at 300mm and a 'metric inch' at 25mm, tho. 



Fman said:


> One of mt students told me we dont use the metric system "cuse we are the gansta cuntry.


Oh yah, dat's it, bro.  Sheeit, mofo, we be gangbangin'. 



kpw555 said:


> The metric system is the bomb!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I have been using the metric system for the last ten years where I work. It is a cinch compared to the inch, tsp, cup crap that is totally confusing to convert.


Too right. 

One thing for sure, cups & teaspoons are not measures with well-defined international standards. 



> What the hell *IS* a peck anyway?


I thought pickled peppers were packed in pecks by pickled pepper packin' peckers.


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## holmes (Oct 18, 2008)

> Oh yah, dat's it, bro.  Sheeit, mofo, we be gangbangin'.


LMAO

a page or two back, i asked you on your temps, thanks for the weather report, but i was more concerned with the outside hot temps affecting your grow room. how does it work out then, is the exhaust and intake working full time?

where did you go to school here in the states?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 18, 2008)

holmes said:


> i was more concerned with the outside hot temps affecting your grow room. how does it work out then, is the exhaust and intake working full time?


Well, the point I was trying to get across, without being too specific about my location, is that there's places in Aus where the ambient air temps are never high enough to be a problem.

If your room's tstat is set for 25C, when the ambient air available to draw in is above that figure, the exhaust blower will run all the time. 



> where did you go to school here in the states?


3 elementary schools, 4 high schools (and unlike Sarah Palin, I was not thrown out of any one of them ), one BSEE degree from a state uni, one BA (Journalism) from a private uni & one masters (Journalism) from a state uni.


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## holmes (Oct 18, 2008)

im curious in nature, not a cop.
what was your career before the accident, journalist or engineer. and how the fuct did you go from an engineer to a journalist.

from seed, whats the earliest you can take a clone off a little guy.

heres a joke i just read on maxim
a man walks into a bar and says to the bartender, "give me 13 margaritas."
The bartenders says, "wow, that's quite an order. Whats the occasion?"
the man replies, "well im celebrating my first blow job"
"that is something to celebrate. tell you what, how about one more on the house?" says the bartender
the man replies, "no thanks. if 13 doesnt get the taste out of my mouth, nothing will."


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 18, 2008)

Just a side note... I've been out browsing other forums on RIU today. After about 2 years of pounding on some basic concepts, the general quality of advice that RIU posters are sharing with peers is _seriously _improving. 

While I don't want everyone to simply parrot stuff I say just because I say it, that's better than people sallying forth with wives' tales and supporting those by Chinese whispers. 

When I signed on to RIU, there was a *plethora *of really sad info floating around. *Far *too many CFL & LED grows running on molasses...  I really thought that the RIU community might well have been beyond help. In fact, I moved off of RIU and used other boards for a while after putting up https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/6592-get-harvest-every-2-weeks.html. 

We've now reached something of a critical mass, where people I _*know*_ I've never talked directly to are citing info from https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/6592-get-harvest-every-2-weeks.html, https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html and also from this thread (which recaps pretty much everything) in response to _other_ people I know I've never talked to. That's a good thing. If someone is going to merely regurgitate stuff they've heard from someone else in reply to posters' queries, it is MUCHO better that the recitations be good, useful data than the wives' tale _du jour._ 

Bravo RIU readers- as long as you keep up your rising standards of making sure what is posted here is based in replicatable botanical science instead of nonsense, it's a much better place for all concerned. 



A BIG round of applause for all of you who care enough to get it right.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 18, 2008)

holmes said:


> im curious in nature, not a cop.


While _*you*_ may not be a cop, LEO almost certainly _*does *_read RIU.



> what was your career before the accident, journalist or engineer.


I was a natural born techo, got my ham radio license before I was 10. Always worked in electronics in one way or another. 



> and how the fuct did you go from an engineer to a journalist.


By way of radio broadcasting. I already was a decent techo, was lucky with the DNA & got some great pipes , so went to work in commercial broadcasting, where I shifted into news reporting. _Then_ I went to uni for it all. Count on me to do things ass-backwards.  I'd love to do podcasts for RIU but my voice would be instantly recognisable by about 2.5 million people in the midwestern USA. 



> from seed, whats the earliest you can take a clone off a little guy.


It's 6-8 weeks for a seedling under veg lighting to show preflowers at the nodes. Once showing preflowers, the plant can be sexed. Sexing can be done by taking a cutting, rooting it & flowering it or by covering a branch on the unknown sex vegging plant for 12h/day for a week. Once sexed, you can then take cuts & flower away. From wetting a bean to your first batch of clones going in to flower is about 8-10 weeks, depending upon how proficient you are with cloning.


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## sparkafire (Oct 18, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Just a side note... I've been out browsing other forums on RIU today. After about 2 years of pounding on some basic concepts, the general quality of advice that RIU posters are sharing with peers is _seriously _improving.
> 
> While I don't want everyone to simply parrot stuff I say just because I say it, that's better than people sallying forth with wives' tales and supporting those by Chinese whispers.
> 
> ...



AS members in the RIU community we have the moderators, know its all's, if you don't grow my way your an idiot, and of course the tried and true "dude i pissed on my plants will it kill them?" And yet there are a few of the members like yourself here that really know what they are doing and are willing to give their time and knowledge to anyone that will ask. EVEN IF THE SAME QUESTION WAS ASKED ON THE PRIOR PAGE!!! 

I know you don't get paid for your time here ( or do you?) LOL but I for one would have given up and quit if you were not here for there is a big difference between one plant and multiple numbers. 

I will agree that just since June when i joined the boards they have been getting way better with at least more thought and less nonsense even if it is parroting. 

There are not too many others like you here and the RIU community owes a great deal to you. You have helped make this a community one where you really can get great knowledge and understanding of what Growing should be.

I am still only on 1 knee not 2 Sir Fuct But just wanted to say thanks.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 18, 2008)

sparkafire said:


> I know you don't get paid for your time here ( or do you?) LOL


No, I'm not paid _per se_. rollie did gift me the elite features recently, which is a compensation of sorts, but that's the lot.


> I will agree that just since June when i joined the boards they have been getting way better with at least more thought and less nonsense even if it is parroting.


I type at about 90-100wpm, but I have other things to do and can't possibly interact on every thread. When people are getting it right, it saves me a lot of keystrokes and minutes. 



> There are not too many others like you here and the RIU community owes a great deal to you. You have helped make this a community one where you really can get great knowledge and understanding of what Growing should be.
> 
> I am still only on 1 knee not 2 Sir Fuct But just wanted to say thanks.


Thanks much for the thanks. 

The thanks that I like the *most *is when the lights come on for a new grower. They start to independently get regular successes and solve their own problems. All that 'teach a man to fish' stuff.


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## holmes (Oct 18, 2008)

what can you do with the "elite" status?

now harvesting and curing, you put your freshly cut buds right into a dryer right?, one that you made
do they sell such things?

now i just read that its best done hanging and drying in paper bags and then placed in jars to cure. 
it seems like a real pain in the ass, is it a big deal how you dry and the traditional method


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 18, 2008)

holmes said:


> what can you do with the "elite" status?


https://www.rollitup.org/payments.php



> Elite Rolling Society *Elite Rolling Society*
> *The Basics: *
> 
> 
> ...





> now harvesting and curing, you put your freshly cut buds right into a dryer right?, one that you made


yep



> do they sell such things?


yes, there's a commercial outfit I heard of not long back which is trying to get $350 for a box with a fan, $1500 if you want a heating element. 



> now i just read that its best done hanging and drying in paper bags and then placed in jars to cure.
> it seems like a real pain in the ass, is it a big deal how you dry and the traditional method


Hang drying is a security problem as you have buds literally hanging around for a couple of weeks. The buds remain damp enough for long enough to go to mould. A bud dryer which controls temp to 29C and has a lot of airflow eliminates that risk. We've been all over curing top to bottom a few times; it's not a necessary process. 

I just use the bud dryer to get the buds dry on the outside, close to crispy, but still have enough moisture inside so there's a bit of stem flexibility. Then I chuck them in a sealed plastic container so the moisture in the innards wicks to the outards, takes a day or so.


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## holmes (Oct 18, 2008)

so you dry in the bud dryer till crispy on the outside while the stem is still flexible, then you vacuum seal them and let them cure for about a day, then into ziplock baggies?

what is the max amount of cuttings you can take from a mother plant?
i ask because im curious to know how many mother you would need to fill up something like the colliseum or one of those turning gardens
Hydroponic Grow Systems, Nutrients & Everything Hydroponics!

congrats on the upgrade


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 18, 2008)

holmes said:


> so you dry in the bud dryer till crispy on the outside while the stem is still flexible, then you vacuum seal them and let them cure for about a day, then into ziplock baggies?


yep



> what is the max amount of cuttings you can take from a mother plant?


depends on the mother plant. A healthy, vigorous mum may deliver 8-10 thick stems (>5.5mm, often 10mm dia). 

I have space for 10 mums, but some of them are not used for cuttings- they are young replacements which are being vegged up in anticipation of taking cuts from them in the next few weeks. There's usually 8 plants that I am actively using for my 30 cuttings every 2 weeks.


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## ldnsharkkid (Oct 19, 2008)

Hey Al i hope all is well in ur neck of the world lol, i was hoping you might have a look at my diary quickly and let me know what you think... im still having temp probs with the cooltube but ive managed to get it down to a constant 26celcius and im waiting on an 8 inch fan arriving tomorrow, but like an idiot i didnt transfer the plants into solid pots straight away, so the roots have grown through the bottom of the net pots and onto the flood table, meaning they are under the light.....

Im gonna transfer them tomorrow into solid pots which will sort it out but is it gonna do any lasting damage to the plants??? Also will the 10 days of 28celcius cause me big problems later??? 

As always Al you give the best advice which is hy i come to you, without bein an arselicker.....kiss-asskiss-ass

AL B ROCKS

Sorry i aint got the chair but im gonna find a new one for ya.......thanks again bro


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## LuckyLou (Oct 19, 2008)

"Also, the cooltube should push air through the cooltube instead of pulling it. It is more efficient for the fan to draw in denser cool air than shift warmed air. A pusher arrangement allows the fan's motor to be cooled by the airflow instead of being heated by the waste heat from the *lights*, which could conceivably shorten its lifespan."

Thank you - this is very useful. I have mine hooked up backwards.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 19, 2008)

ldnsharkkid said:


> im still having temp probs with the cooltube but ive managed to get it down to a constant 26celcius and im waiting on an 8 inch fan arriving tomorrow


Better. Hope the 200mm blower brings the temps down. Make sure that the path for intake air is not restrictive.



> but like an idiot i didnt transfer the plants into solid pots straight away, so the roots have grown through the bottom of the net pots and onto the flood table, meaning they are under the light.....
> Im gonna transfer them tomorrow into solid pots which will sort it out but is it gonna do any lasting damage to the plants???


Wrats. If there's not a lot of escaped roots (10mm or less outside the pots), you can trim them off, pull the plant out of the netpot and drop them into std pots- but if there's significant development of the roots outside of the pots, _*don't *_try trimming the roots off. You will give the plant a case of transplant shock, slowing it way down. Just get through this grow and use the solid wall pots next time. 



> Also will the 10 days of 28celcius cause me big problems later???


The plants may show some mainstem elongation later on, but hopefully you will get the temps down to 24-26C for the remainder of the grow, which should prevent your buds from bolting or becoming 'runny,' where long strands of bud material are formed instead of tight, dense nugs. 



LuckyLou said:


> Thank you - this is very useful. I have mine hooked up backwards.


 Easy fix, just turn it around.


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## BigBudBalls (Oct 19, 2008)

LuckyLou said:


> "Also, the cooltube should push air through the cooltube instead of pulling it. It is more efficient for the fan to draw in denser cool air than shift warmed air. A pusher arrangement allows the fan's motor to be cooled by the airflow instead of being heated by the waste heat from the *lights*, which could conceivably shorten its lifespan."
> 
> Thank you - this is very useful. I have mine hooked up backwards.


I think (could be wrong) but its also at a slightly higher pressure but offers more air mols to absorb heat. (but then compressing air heats it up too. Probably a wash/splitting hairs)


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## drynroasty (Oct 19, 2008)

Hey Al, I was hoping you could stop by my thread and see my grow. I have just noticed a deficiency that I am unfamilar with. I belive I saw a photo you posted of the same sort of problem, but I cannot find it.

It would sure be appreciated.

Cheers!


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 19, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> I think (could be wrong) but its also at a slightly higher pressure but offers more air mols to absorb heat. (but then compressing air heats it up too. Probably a wash/splitting hairs)


Yes, true, there's more air molecules per litre in cooler air, which would indeed be able to pick up more joules of heat per litre of air. 

However, an axial blower will not compress air enough to change its temp significantly. Boyle's law will tell you just how much the air temp of compressed air will rise, but since axials are designed to move large volumes without developing much pressure downline, any air temp increase measured from the output of an axial blower is more likely to be caused by heat from the fan motor.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 19, 2008)

drynroasty said:


> Hey Al, I was hoping you could stop by my thread and see my grow. I have just noticed a deficiency that I am unfamilar with.


You're shooting the pH too low at 5.3. 







Needs to be 5.8. At 5.3, you are locking out N, P & Mg. 

Keep in mind that deficiencies caused by an actual absence of certain elemental nutes are extremely rare when using a commercially made hydroponic nutrient. It's much more likely that a pH error is locking out certain nutes.


----------



## BigBudBalls (Oct 19, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yes, true, there's more air molecules per litre in cooler air, which would indeed be able to pick up more joules of heat per litre of air.
> 
> However, an axial blower will not compress air enough to change its temp significantly. Boyle's law will tell you just how much the air temp of compressed air will rise, but since axials are designed to move large volumes without developing much pressure downline, any air temp increase measured from the output of an axial blower is more likely to be caused by heat from the fan motor.


Now is that to say that an axial fan with a down stream restriction will stall the blades of lift before compressing the air to any degree of temp significance? (sorry, tend to think inside the box next door at times.) 

But I do like the push vs pull. (as a side note: The original PC power supply's fan was an exhaust by mistake. It worked, so it stuck as de facto standard. Same holds true for the twist in the floppy drive data cables A-B. Am I dating myself here?  )

On another note, I have an sealed air cooled hood almost ready to go in. Is a cooltube that much better then a hood? Its a narrow .2m D x 1.75m W x 2.5m H grow room/closet. But only plan on 6 smaller plants under it (400W) in a 2x3 config, currently under 2 150W (I like the spread of the pair)

(also in soil, so need a little more floor real estate, but in general.)

Also planing on one of these for the hood:

Soler & Palau Commercial Centrifugal, Axial, Propeller, Exhaust and Supply Fans - Soler and Palau - HVACQuick.com

The TD-150. They are claimed to be a hybrid of axial/blower. Seems a good contender. The Pano's are just too expensive for a house I don't plan on dieing in.  See any downside to them? (the S&P's)


----------



## ldnsharkkid (Oct 19, 2008)

Thanks for your advice Al, im gonna get some solid pots tomorrow and see if i can still transpant them, however if i have to cut any roots ill just let them be, but any advice on what i should do with the roots, ie, cover them up somehow?? 

Also i dunno if you looked at my journal but the flimsy cololtube reflector jumped off the other day, and broke a fan leaf at the stem, however its still half attached, should i cut it off, also the first set leaves that grew havent grown for 10 days and are a lime green and look wilted, in my opinion dead, should i cut them off?? As a noobie im a bit anxious about cutting my babies, but i trust your advice so if you could lend an opinion would be much appreciated....

Just 1 last thing, in fact 2.....when you clean your res what do you use? Can i use a household cleaner as long as its rinsed properly, or will this be detrimental to my plants if some stays in the res???

And i saw a link a while ago for H202 in the uk as its hard to get, ive searched through loads of pages looking for it and i ust cant find it, if you have the link could you post it....

Thanks again Al, i like many others would be very worried without some of your input, and if i could make any sort of donation for your advice i would, not that you need it from the sounds of it you got things tickin over very nicely, and hopefully 1 day ill have the same success you have....keep up the good work bro


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 19, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> Now is that to say that an axial fan with a down stream restriction will stall the blades of lift before compressing the air to any degree of temp significance? (sorry, tend to think inside the box next door at times.)


zackly. They stall, but any significant pressure generated will vent backward between the blades as well. 



> Am I dating myself here?


Possibly. I understand that dating yourself is still legal in Alaska, though. 



> On another note, I have an sealed air cooled hood almost ready to go in. Is a cooltube that much better then a hood?


Cooltubes tend to flow air a bit better than hoods. The metal body of a hood also can heat up easily from radiant IR; that heat can then convect into the room's airmass. The biggest problem with hoods is that they don't usually employ a double parabola reflector, meaning a fair amount of light is reflected right back at the lamp tube instead of being directed at plants. 



> The TD-150.


Looks fine to me. Axials of any flavour are fine for cooltubes or hoods. There's no need for a carbon filter inline with ducting for air cooled lighting, so there's relatively little restriction to contend with.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 19, 2008)

Just browsing through the S&P sales lit. Very complete specs and some good installation tips. I have a 150mm axial on my cooltubes and another 150mm blower on the shelf. I think I'll have a play with putting the spare inline with the existing 150 and see if the increased pressure drops the exhaust temp. Thanks for the linkage.


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## BigBudBalls (Oct 19, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> zackly. They stall, but any significant pressure generated will vent backward between the blades as well.


But at a cooling loss.



> Possibly. I understand that dating yourself is still legal in Alaska, though.


I am my own grandpappy and sister.



> Cooltubes tend to flow air a bit better than hoods. The metal body of a hood also can heat up easily from radiant IR; that heat can then convect into the room's airmass. The biggest problem with hoods is that they don't usually employ a double parabola reflector, meaning a fair amount of light is reflected right back at the lamp tube instead of being directed at plants.


The dual parabola wouldn't work well in my space: skinny. But since I only need a single or maybe 2 grows a year, I can work with in the limitations.



> Looks fine to me. Axials of any flavour are fine for cooltubes or hoods. There's no need for a carbon filter inline with ducting for air cooled lighting, so there's relatively little restriction to contend with.


No filter here. Strain is near smell free. I got lucky. First seed I tried was a girl and a *very* nice genetics, tight nodes, loves to be bushy, smell free (though I think is in part the reason for less taste. But haven't smoked in 10 years prior to buying seeds, so taste is secondary). Glad I took clones. All seeds since have been lack luster compared (but done just fine).

Do you buy into the clones of clones of clones, etc degrades the results?
Do you go clones of clones, or seeds, for mums or a mix?

(I'm into the mother/clone/perpetual grow style, and trying to settle in to a groove.)


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## bl0wdr0 (Oct 19, 2008)

Al B. It's my first grow, 4 WW's.. planted 25 days ago, started under a T5. About 2 weeks in, I transplanted, and put them under the 400W MH 14" away, and the temps were steady rarely exceeding 80*. Soon, I realized the leaves were bending and twisting and one of the plants had brown spots on its leaves (signs of heat stress?) - this is the stunted one now. I then lowered them, 29" from the lights.. then yesterday (about a week from the the tips browning from the stunted plant incident) I raised them so it's 24" from the lights. Now, I come back today and check and see the leaves of the other plants are starting to brown at the tip, and only the tips of the lower leaves. Is this normal? My plants are only 25 days since planting, and I have Fox Farm Ocean Forest soil, pH of the water is fine. Is it time to give it a bit of nutes?? 

I know I have a bunch of questions, but this is my first grow, and I appreciate the help Al. Thanks in advanced.


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## Hydrokronics (Oct 19, 2008)

LuckyLou said:


> "Also, the cooltube should push air through the cooltube instead of pulling it. It is more efficient for the fan to draw in denser cool air than shift warmed air. A pusher arrangement allows the fan's motor to be cooled by the airflow instead of being heated by the waste heat from the *lights*, which could conceivably shorten its lifespan."
> 
> Thank you - this is very useful. I have mine hooked up backwards.


 
Hey al is this all true?


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## drynroasty (Oct 19, 2008)

Thanks for taking a look Al, I had already raised the nutes PH. THey are drinking a lot more water now and PPM stayed near 870 EC 1.27-1.28 for a couple days.

From this I take it to mean they found their balance at around PPM 800-850?


----------



## LostInSpace... (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi Al, mate if you get a chance can you please post the wiring diagram to wire an extension lead to a fan speed controller (the one without a thermostat) I cant seem to find it, cheers


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 20, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> I am my own grandpappy and sister.


 Hellfire, Jackson... you otta meet my Uncle Dad. 


> Do you buy into the clones of clones of clones, etc degrades the results?
> Do you go clones of clones, or seeds, for mums or a mix?


 It's all but impossible for the DNA of a plant propagated by asexual means to have any difference from the donor plant. 

I last sprouted Sweet Tooth #4 beans in 2002 and have propagated by cuttings ever since. If the DNA is gonna degrade on me, I sure wish it'd hurry the fuck up. 



bl0wdr0 said:


> . Is this normal? My plants are only 25 days since planting, and I have Fox Farm Ocean Forest soil, pH of the water is fine.


 I'll warn you going in that I am not a soil guy. There's soil experts on RIU whom you should consult. 

Leaves should never be anything but deep green, save for the growing tip of the plant which should be lime green when actively growing. 

What you describe could possibly be a Mg deficiency or a pH error. The pH range requirements for soil are different from hydroponics and the means of shifting pH are different too. Wish I could help you.



Hydrokronics said:


> Hey al is this all true?


 nah, I write all this stuff just to fool people. 



LostInSpace... said:


> Hi Al, mate if you get a chance can you please post the wiring diagram to wire an extension lead to a fan speed controller (the one without a thermostat) I cant seem to find it, cheers


No diagram required. Just break the blue wire in the extension lead and connect the ends to the MSC.


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## GrowTech (Oct 20, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> nah, I write all this stuff just to fool people.



lmfao...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 20, 2008)

Completely off topic: When I drop $1000 on a new pair of spex, I expect they'll be assembled correctly and I'll pick them up without waiting or dicking around. No quibbling. That's not what has happened today. I got every excuse in the book for why the machine which is supposed to cut & polish lenses did a bad job. So, I'm trying to post on RIU wearing my driving glasses and it ain't working so well. 

I've been to Jamaica several times and I speak a bit of _patois_. One of my very favourite Jamaican sayings is "Mi come here fi drink milk, mi no come here fi count cow." Means it's none of _my_ business how you get _your_ business done, I'm paying for the result. 

Grr.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 20, 2008)

drynroasty said:


> Thanks for taking a look Al, I had already raised the nutes PH. THey are drinking a lot more water now and PPM stayed near 870 EC 1.27-1.28 for a couple days.
> 
> From this I take it to mean they found their balance at around PPM 800-850?


If you are topping up the tank frequently, you should see the EC drop as the plants consume the nutes. IOW, if you mix a tank of 1000ppm and run that for several days, then top up the water to replace that used by the plants or evaporated, you should see the ppm drop a bit.


----------



## paperfetti (Oct 20, 2008)

yo Al,
I have a plant outside and it has stopped growing because of the cold.The sad part is it turns out to be female,anyway is it possible to cut fan leaves that have bud sites for cloning?
and does this dome work for this fogger?..or does the dome have to be like a perfect fit in order to work properly?..this was closes size they had to this thing


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## doktorgreenthumb420 (Oct 20, 2008)

Hey AL check out my tables i use two tables they are like 4x4 foot ebb and flo i use general hydroponics and i have a truncheoun meter i set my EC at like 1.6 in first tray and like 2.0 in second tray 

second tray has hps light and has bucket system in it and rainforest setup 

they will be coming out soon as i have decided to bud out that mother like you suggested that problematic ppp from nirvana anyways first tray uses metal halide conversion bulb that runs on hps ballast i have 3 questions

1. Do you think i should give up conversion bulb and blast it with another hortilux super red with like 150,000 lumen or keep the halide because that is bay they are still growin leaves in ?

2. do you think two 1000 hps over 2 4x4 tables is overkill ...am i losin on some light 

3. Have you ever had light disturb your bloom room ...like a pinhole or light from ac unit ...turn some hermaphrodite ?

these are both aircooled yieldmaster 6 inch air cooled hoods heat is escaped via 600 cfm or so squirrelcage straight up and out the roof with vent cover 

also reservoirs are just totes 15 bucks from target hehe and they hold about 30 gallons comfortably which is really pushin it with 4x4 table ....
also they both have circular airstones in each reservoir and fish tank heaters set at 70 F

I like how you simplyfy things and put everything in a real easy to understand logical perspective 

and my RW clones are actually lookin pretty nice ty for advice on that


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## flamdrags420 (Oct 20, 2008)

Hey Al.
I was looking at your PH chart comparisson illustration chart (hydro/soli)

And noticed that at 5.8 you get a Manganesse lock out for hydro setups. Does this have any effects on plant growth? I was researching arond and other non cannibus plants seem to have probs with having a Mn deficiency. Does cannibus not need Mn or what do we do to sub this out? (or do are hydro nutes have the Mn in the mix?)

Thanks


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## kpw555 (Oct 20, 2008)

flamdrags420 said:


> Hey Al.
> And noticed that at 5.8 you get a Manganesse lock out for hydro setups. Does this have any effects on plant growth?
> Thanks


I wondered the same thing when I looked closely at the chart. Seems there is nowhere on the Ph scale where all nutes are available.

The plants have to get it somewhere don't they?


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## ldnsharkkid (Oct 20, 2008)

ldnsharkkid said:


> Thanks for your advice Al, im gonna get some solid pots tomorrow and see if i can still transpant them, however if i have to cut any roots ill just let them be, but any advice on what i should do with the roots, ie, cover them up somehow??
> 
> Also i dunno if you looked at my journal but the flimsy cololtube reflector jumped off the other day, and broke a fan leaf at the stem, however its still half attached, should i cut it off, also the first set leaves that grew havent grown for 10 days and are a lime green and look wilted, in my opinion dead, should i cut them off?? As a noobie im a bit anxious about cutting my babies, but i trust your advice so if you could lend an opinion would be much appreciated....
> 
> ...


Hey Al i posted this about 10 posts ago after some advice you gave me but i think you missed it,anyway if you could help with your opinions would be much appreciated,thanks again mate


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## sparkafire (Oct 20, 2008)

Hey Al 

Lazy Stoner question one i am SURE you have experience with. What really happens when you don't change your nute solution every 2 weeks? 

I seem to have everything down pretty good except my finish times are extending longer than 8 weeks and of course its screwing with my cycle. I am starting to think that i might go every 3 weeks but it sure would be easier to just change out when i move in new clones. 

I have seen somewhere here where some guy was changing out every 4 weeks and i am sure there are different thoughts to this but what is real and what can be stretched provided everything is kept in order pathogens ppm,'s and PH levels. 

I really want to believe that if you care for your tanks you could extend your tanks further. But then again i sleep with a supermodel every night also so I might be having hallucinations .

Thanks brother


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## NotMine (Oct 20, 2008)

Al B Fuct just wanted to drop in and say you do rock..youv'e changed my perspective on alot of things sort of opened my eyes...as an outdoor guy moving inside to be safe you've helped me make the most of my space and my time keep on keeping on maaannnn!


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 20, 2008)

paperfetti said:


> ,anyway is it possible to cut fan leaves that have bud sites for cloning?


 Fan leaves don't have bud sites. Leaves cannot be cloned. 



> and does this dome work for this fogger?..or does the dome have to be like a perfect fit in order to work properly?..this was closes size they had to this thing


 I don't use humidomes at all. See https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html



doktorgreenthumb420 said:


> second tray has hps light and has bucket system in it and rainforest setup


 Please cite nute strength in ppm instead of EC. I don't know the EC-ppm conversions off the top of my head. 

What's a rainforest setup?



> 1. Do you think i should give up conversion bulb and blast it with another hortilux super red with like 150,000 lumen or keep the halide


What are you using the MH conversion lamp for?


> because that is bay they are still growin leaves in ?


 Sorry, what does this mean? I've read this 5 times and can't make sense of it.


> 2. do you think two 1000 hps over 2 4x4 tables is overkill ...am i losin on some light


 A 1000 will do fine over a 4'x4' tray.



> 3. Have you ever had light disturb your bloom room ...like a pinhole or light from ac unit ...turn some hermaphrodite ?


 Generally takes more than a pinhole or an indicator light to cause hermaphrodism. However, I would cover the indicator lamps with some black tape just to be sure. The dark period for flowering plants should be as dark as you can make it. You should not peek in on them during the dark period. 



flamdrags420 said:


> And noticed that at 5.8 you get a Manganesse lock out for hydro setups.


 That's a very good question- that I have no answer for. If St0ney's pH chart is accurate, Mn is indeed locked out at 5.8 and I don't know how nute makers get around that. I can't recall ever having to solve a Mn deficiency, though.



ldnsharkkid said:


> Hey Al i posted this about 10 posts ago after some advice you gave me but i think you missed it


 Yep, I did miss it, sorry about that. Happens every once in a while that someone posts something while I am assembling a response and it winds up on a previous page, escaping my notice. 



> Originally Posted by *ldnsharkkid*
> Thanks for your advice Al, im gonna get some solid pots tomorrow and see if i can still transpant them, however if i have to cut any roots ill just let them be, but any advice on what i should do with the roots, ie, cover them up somehow??


 Roots should be protected from light, but I suspect just the shading from the foliage above may be sufficient. You can use a sheet of panda film with holes poked in it for stems for this if you like. 



> Also i dunno if you looked at my journal but the flimsy cololtube reflector jumped off the other day, and broke a fan leaf at the stem, however its still half attached, should i cut it off,


 yep, remove the damaged leaf. 



> also the first set leaves that grew havent grown for 10 days and are a lime green and look wilted, in my opinion dead, should i cut them off??


 first set? You mean the oldest, lowermost leaves? Yes, those can go. 



> Just 1 last thing, in fact 2.....when you clean your res what do you use?


 I spray down tank walls with a mix of 50% grade H2O2 and water, 10ml/L.


> And i saw a link a while ago for H202 in the uk as its hard to get, ive searched through loads of pages looking for it and i ust cant find it, if you have the link could you post it....


 I can't find the link either. Someone on here will remember and chime in, hopefully.

Helps also if you search for H2O2 (letter O for oxygen, not zero) instead of H202. 



sparkafire said:


> Hey Al
> 
> Lazy Stoner question one i am SURE you have experience with. What really happens when you don't change your nute solution every 2 weeks?


Depends upon how long you let it slip. Plants store about 1-2 weeks worth of nutes, but if vigorously growing, could deplete those stores sooner.The result is usually lowered yield due to nute deficiencies. 



NotMine said:


> Al B Fuct just wanted to drop in and say you do rock..









yeah man!


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## fitzyno1 (Oct 20, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I can't find the link either. Someone on here will remember and chime in, hopefully.
> 
> Helps also if you search for H2O2 (letter O for oxygen, not zero) instead of H202.


I cant yet find a company who sell 50% grade H2O2 in the UK. Accepta is the only company i can find in the UK who sell 35% grade H2O2 in large quantity. 
UK growers can send an email ( [email protected] ) to this supplier (Philip). 
They supply 30kg drums (25L) 35% grade H2O2, £54, they are very fast at shipping. Payment by bank transfer or cheque. 

P.S VAT and shipping costs to be added to the £54. It still works out a lot cheaper in the long run. 
This is not spam, I do not have anything to do with this company, i just want to help out in any way i can.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 20, 2008)

brilliant, fitzy, thanks again for your help. 

35% is fine, just use it at 1.7ml/L instead of the 1ml/L rate for 50%.


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## iloveit (Oct 20, 2008)

ldnsharkkid said:


> Thanks for your advice Al, im gonna get some solid pots tomorrow and see if i can still transpant them, however if i have to cut any roots ill just let them be, but any advice on what i should do with the roots, ie, cover them up somehow??
> 
> Also i dunno if you looked at my journal but the flimsy cololtube reflector jumped off the other day, and broke a fan leaf at the stem, however its still half attached, should i cut it off, also the first set leaves that grew havent grown for 10 days and are a lime green and look wilted, in my opinion dead, should i cut them off?? As a noobie im a bit anxious about cutting my babies, but i trust your advice so if you could lend an opinion would be much appreciated....
> 
> ...



Regarding the H2O2 the first link is just a bit of info the 2nd one (page 152) is the money shot...I mean erm well you know? just look for my seizure giving avatar LOL.

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/110660-u-k-growers-where-can.html

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/94811-al-b-faqt-152.html#post1446330

Hope that helps dude.


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## iloveit (Oct 20, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> I cant yet find a company who sell 50% grade H2O2 in the UK. Accepta is the only company i can find in the UK who sell 35% grade H2O2 in large quantity.
> UK growers can send an email ( [email protected] ) to this supplier (Philip).
> They supply 30kg drums (25L) 35% grade H2O2, £54, they are very fast at shipping. Payment by bank transfer or cheque.
> 
> ...




Nevermind you beat me to it he he he


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 20, 2008)

Thanks for that, iloveit.


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## iloveit (Oct 20, 2008)

Hey there Al just dropping in to say wud up!
Im trying again with the Blueberry grow this time with the magic "H2O2" germinated it yesterday and placed in RW Ill be very cautious with the watering & misting in the prop.
Oh & I thought Id let you know there is a new member to this forum his name is "Heath Robinson" hes a great humble & helpful grower who was currently a member of erm I dont know if Im allowed to state this site...its called GH420 but the first 2 characters the other way round (the site seems like its been shut down). Im just mentioning this because you 2 are the best growers I know, maybe you 2 can bounce ideas off each other.


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## Return of the Spork (Oct 20, 2008)

Hey Al, I just wanted to revisit the cloning cut placement part.

So what I should do is cut a clone from the mainstem in order to make the plant bush out and thicken up? 

Will these be the right cuts to do so?

Images are clickable again for bigger pics.




1-Cut off top area of mainstem
2-Cut off lower side shoots?
--------------------

Also, as far as cloning on the branches, would cutting at "3" force shoot growth at 1&2? I see little tiny things at the node but they haven't been growing. 

http://s526.photobucket.com/albums/cc341/returnofthespork/Rollitup/?action=view&current=Temp001.jpg


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## ldnsharkkid (Oct 20, 2008)

Hey thanks for the advice Al again, and no probs bout missing it you help so many people here its only natural, especially for us stoners lol, and yes i did mean the lowermost leaves and i have cut them off, im gonna update my jounal with some pics tomorrow if u fancy looking...

Thanks Fitzy and iloveit for the links for h202 i will be looking into that very soon.....

Anyways keep up the brilliant work Al and be lucky


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 20, 2008)

iloveit said:


> Im trying again with the Blueberry grow this time with the magic "H2O2" germinated it yesterday and placed in RW Ill be very cautious with the watering & misting in the prop.


coolio. 


> Oh & I thought Id let you know there is a new member to this forum his name is "Heath Robinson"


Will keep an eye out for him. 



Return of the Spork said:


> Will these be the right cuts to do so?


yeffir, now you've got it. 



> Also, as far as cloning on the branches, would cutting at "3" force shoot growth at 1&2? I see little tiny things at the node but they haven't been growing.


Yes, those nodes eventually will form branches, but cutting it as you depict will force them to get a move on.


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## paperfetti (Oct 20, 2008)

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THESE SPOTS AL
all i did was put fresh ph'd water in there..i thought my prada sneakers would be the "good" ending of the dayafter shopping only to come home and see beige spots on my plant!!...wtf!!


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## BigBudBalls (Oct 20, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Completely off topic: When I drop $1000 on a new pair of spex, I expect they'll be assembled correctly and I'll pick them up without waiting or dicking around. No quibbling. That's not what has happened today. I got every excuse in the book for why the machine which is supposed to cut & polish lenses did a bad job. So, I'm trying to post on RIU wearing my driving glasses and it ain't working so well.


Hey man, I used to service the edgers (longest 6 months of my life! SO happy to be back to lasers and *real* optics.). They don't polish/grind the prescription in, thats done at the lens factory. in an injection mold. The Optician only grinds the edge down to fit the glasses.

Now if they are progressive lenses (line-less bifocals) they need to be measured correctly and fitted correctly,other wise they will be junk. Johnson & Johnson had the best progressives out a couple years back.

The edgers really don't screw up that bad. If the lens wasn't blocked correctly, crap glasses.

Be picky and inspect everything. A pair of standard single vision lenses are only about $5. Frames $4-30. Even look at how even the bevel around the lens is.

(Now progressive and auto tinting lenses are a LOT LOT more)


----------



## doktorgreenthumb420 (Oct 20, 2008)

hey al sorry \bout the unclarity of my questions 

rainforest setup is an aeroponic system that is by general hydroponics company ....they do ok i guess nothin to spend 300 dollars on tho lol 

i use metal halide conversion for vegetative type growth and i thoughts since they are still actively growin in first 3 weeks or so of bloom that they might benefit from blue spectrum that a MH gives 

when i wrote because the bay is still growing leaves in it i meant the 4x4 tray in pic with MH bulb i mean that they are still activly kinda vegging for the first 3 weeks and i heard that MH is better to Vegetate plants than a HPS 
when i say still growing leaves i meant that first couple of weeks that plants actively grow taller and aquire more leaves in bloom ....instead of like week 3 or 4 when they start to set flower

oh i am sorry bout the EC numbers i read somewhere that you liked the metric system or somethin and i was tryin to oblige you 

so what i mean was that my first 4x4 tray has a PPm of 700-800
and second bay has PPm of like 1000 ....also these are general hydroponic nutes (3 Part grow,micro,bloom) and i also add about 200 PPm of Koolbloom from general hydroponics .....so i actually have like 500-600 PPm of 3 part and then additional 200 PPm of the kool bloom in tray 1 


so tray 1 = 500-600 ppm of 3 part + 200 ppm of koolbloom
and tray 2= 800 ppm of 3 part + 200 ppm of koolbloom

ty and sorry for the sloppy posting i am very new to the whole posting and internet stuff hehe 


thanks al you the bomb


Ps. this is a pic of the rainforest system


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 21, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> The Optician only grinds the edge down to fit the glasses.


Yeah, that's what I''m talking about, the cut of the blank and the roll/polish of the edge. I'm a -4.75 to -5 so my lenses are thick. With a rough cut edge and no roll & polish, not only does it look bad, but high-index polycarbonate will chip easily unless an edge break is put on it. 



> Now if they are progressive lenses (line-less bifocals) they need to be measured correctly and fitted correctly,other wise they will be junk. Johnson & Johnson had the best progressives out a couple years back.


Can't use those with the frame style I like- lens isn't big enough. I chose separate pairs of glasses for reading (manicuring, really ) & driving and I'm glad I did- the script can be optimised for the application with no intermediary stages.


> The edgers really don't screw up that bad. If the lens wasn't blocked correctly, crap glasses.


A bad workman blames the tools. That's what happened here. 



> Be picky and inspect everything. A pair of standard single vision lenses are only about $5. Frames $4-30. Even look at how even the bevel around the lens is.


Oh yeah, I do- and they're not happy with me for doing so, either. I don't think it's too muckin' futch to ask to have the job done competently. Their polish wheel only did half the edge of the lens. Either the lens wasn't set in the machine properly or the machine is screwed up, but they never should have called me and said they were ready if they weren't. The person assembling the spex either didn't know what a good roll & polish looked like or didn't even check after taking the lens off the machine.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 21, 2008)

doktorgreenthumb420 said:


> i use metal halide conversion for vegetative type growth and i thoughts since they are still actively growin in first 3 weeks or so of bloom that they might benefit from blue spectrum that a MH gives


OK, I can see why you did that, but you're looking to shift the plant into flowering even though some veg growth does occur in wk1-4 of flowering. Providing the blue-biased spectrum isn't helping the cause of forcing flowering. 



> oh i am sorry bout the EC numbers i read somewhere that you liked the metric system or somethin and i was tryin to oblige you


I do like metrics but most EC meters display in ppm instead of uS/cm. 



> so what i mean was that my first 4x4 tray has a PPm of 700-800
> and second bay has PPm of like 1000 ....also these are general hydroponic nutes (3 Part grow,micro,bloom) and i also add about 200 PPm of Koolbloom from general hydroponics .....so i actually have like 500-600 PPm of 3 part and then additional 200 PPm of the kool bloom in tray 1


 KoolBloom is a P & K additive and should be used for 1 week only, in wk 5 of flowering.


----------



## bertison99 (Oct 21, 2008)

hey al, i love your thread. i'm a newb and read through here whenever i have time to do research. i have a 3' x 3' flood table with a 1000w convertible ballast. i am about 4 weeks into vegging and have realized i need to control odor. i am looking to get a tent so i can conceal the setup as well. i'm looking for suggestions on filters and fan set ups. any suggestions as far as size, brand, etc would be helpful. i am looking at 4' x 4' x 6.5' tent. thanks


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 21, 2008)

Thanks for the thanks, bert. 

You might look at the Odorsok line of carbon filters. 







They are available in several lengths and diameters, some are especially well suited to smaller grows and limited space applications. Carbon filters should be driven with a centrif blower. 

I use UV fluoro ozone generators from Uvonair for odor control. 







They work generally well but sometimes don't keep up with the airflow generated by my 600CFM exhaust blower, esp when tray #4 is in wk 8 of flowering. Every once in a while I can detect a tiny scent where I shouldn't. If my nearest neighbour wasn't 1km away, I'd get a carbon filter.


----------



## paperfetti (Oct 21, 2008)

i guess u missed my quick question on page 175,sorry if im annoying you with noob questions


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 21, 2008)

paperfetti said:


> i guess u missed my quick question on page 175,sorry if im annoying you with noob questions


I did miss it, sorry.  

https://www.rollitup.org/attachments/hydroponics-aeroponics/222136d1224544372-al-b-faqt-sspx0068.jpg


>


Looks like heat damage. You're looking for 24-26C (75.2-78.8F). You have a peak-memory recording thermometer, don't you? What has the temp range been at plant level? What kind of light is over this plant and how close is it to the leaves?


----------



## Return of the Spork (Oct 21, 2008)

Clones again...


I put them in 6 hours of dark and have it setup per your instructions. No real sign of leaf wilt, but some of the stems are all bending over from being top heavy. Not all of them are, but the thicker stem ones are just as affected as their less thick brothers. Will this correct itself in a couple days or should I stake them with support?


----------



## bertison99 (Oct 21, 2008)

I just read a DIY carbon filter thread and I think I'm gonna give that a go. I do, however, still need to buy a fan. I am looking at a 273 cfm Dayton Blower on ebay for $100. Is this an appropriate size, and do you think this is a good fan? Also, should I use the same type of fan to bring air into the tent? Thanks again...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 21, 2008)

Return of the Spork said:


> Will this correct itself in a couple days or should I stake them with support?


If the stem cut is sterile and the medium is appropriately damp and not wet, they will all straighten up in a day or so. Stake them if you like, but they shouldn't really need it.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 21, 2008)

bertison99 said:


> I am looking at a 273 cfm Dayton Blower on ebay for $100. Is this an appropriate size, and do you think this is a good fan? Also, should I use the same type of fan to bring air into the tent?


Is that Dayton blower a centrifugal? You'll need a centrif if you are using a carbon filter. Axial blowers can't develop the pressure needed to overcome the obstruction of the filter. They will not come anywhere near their CFM rating if pushing into a high static pressure.

The size of the exhaust blower depends on the size of the room. If you are not using cooltubes, plan on 1CFM per cubic foot of room volume. If you are using cooltubes, the exhaust can be smaller, big enough to move the room volume in 2-3 mins. 

The intake blower can be an axial, rated about 80-90% of the capacity of the exhaust. The slightly lower capacity of the intake blower will keep the room at negative pressure, so that any air leaks in the room construction leak inward. This keeps all air leaving your op going through the exhaust blower and thus your carbon filter, controlling scents better.


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Hey Al,

I started a grow 7 days ago and have a picture of my plants at this stage. Everything looks good other than the center plant does not want to face upwards towards the lights for some reason. The smallest plant on the left already has a taproot out the bottom of the cube.

I have been feeding them tap water PH'd to 5.8 and keeping the cubes between 24-30 grams when wet and only watering when they are down to about 15 grams.

When do you recommend I start feeding them nutrients and when do you think I should lower the lighting for them? The lights are 3 42W(150) CFL's at about 7-8" currently.

I plan on putting them under a 250W MH light in a flood and drain setup probably in about a week.

I will be using the canna brand veging nutes for these plants which will be my mothers until enough cuttings to replace them in a perpetual grow like yours.







Thanks in advance.


----------



## bertison99 (Oct 21, 2008)

Great...thanks for the advice. I will be getting things set up asap. I just ordered the tent and I'm looking online for a centrifugal fan. Should be able to get it all going in four or five days.


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## DoobyDoo (Oct 21, 2008)

Dear Al,

I fawked up and would like some assistance. First time grower so I figured _something_ would go wrong, but this kind of has me worried. I'm in soil, have been feeding with 10mL/gal (mixed measuring systems FTW!) of Tiger Bloom, haven't had any problems. A few weeks ago I added 2.5mL (a half dose) of Grow Big to the mix without any problems. I did the same thing last feeding, and my plants got burned. The two biggest ones took the hardest hits, too. I flushed them all with 3gal of water as soon as I noticed, probably a day or two after the burning happened (I was real busy for a few days and wasn't paying very close attention). The damage seems to have stopped and the colas seem to have a bit of new growth, but I wanted your opinion: is this thing toast? It is on day 42 of flowering.

Honestly, I'm confused as hell as to what caused this. I'm thinking one of two things: 1) During those days I was busy as hell, I didn't completely "un-seal" my closet one of those days and ventilation wasn't the best. Temperatures could have gotten too high, burning the plants. 2) I got distracted while mixing nutes and added an extra 5mL of Tiger Bloom. 3) Some combination of the two things. 4) Something else completely.

The damaged plants feel crispy and brittle... even healthy-looking leaves snap off if I even brush up against them. Needless to say, I'm rather bummed... but oh well, live and learn.

Edit: The bigger colas on the burned plants have also started sagging a bit in the last couple days. I'm hoping this is due to the size of the colas and not my frying them, but that is likely too much to hope for. Any suggestions there would help too. TIA!


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## BigBudBalls (Oct 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yeah, that's what I''m talking about, the cut of the blank and the roll/polish of the edge. I'm a -4.75 to -5 so my lenses are thick. With a rough cut edge and no roll & polish, not only does it look bad, but high-index polycarbonate will chip easily unless an edge break is put on it.


Actually High index isn't polyparb. (also stinks like a mutha when grinding it) Typical materials are CR39, polycarb and High Index. -5? How many hands am I holding up?  Its not that bad, but yeah, edges will get thick depending on frame style.



> A bad workman blames the tools. That's what happened here.


I've said this many a time (been uilty of it at times too)




> Oh yeah, I do- and they're not happy with me for doing so, either. I don't think it's too muckin' futch to ask to have the job done competently. Their polish wheel only did half the edge of the lens. Either the lens wasn't set in the machine properly or the machine is screwed up, but they never should have called me and said they were ready if they weren't. The person assembling the spex either didn't know what a good roll & polish looked like or didn't even check after taking the lens off the machine.


[/quote]

For the mark up they charge, yes they can/must do a good job. Beveling and polishing is just an extra step on a modern machine. Though beveling is faster and can be nicer when done by hand. But I'd go with he deblocked it before checking the lens. And tossing it back on the lensometer and back into edger would have taken him a whole 10 minutes for the pair.

Oh shit! I just saw polished 1/2 the edge. Like back 1/2 of the lens? If so they are using cheap ass blocking tape. Its deflecting too much on the wheel. 3M is the only good stuff out there.


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## fitzyno1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Thanks for the thanks, bert.
> 
> You might look at the Odorsok line of carbon filters.
> 
> ...


Al, i use a carbon filter for 8 plants at the minute and think it's great. But i'll be starting up a setup like yours very soon in a different location, and i will have to make a new growroom. I'll be using a carbon filter in that room as well, but odor will be a main concern. The carbon filter exaust will be going into an attic. It's costing quite a bit to set up and i dont want to be splashing-out on more expensive gear. 
I was wondering if you have ever heard of anyone using an Odor Neutralizing Agent (ONA) and some absorbing crystals (Soil Moist), in a bucket and fan?
Here is a link to a DIY Odor Neutralizing Machine:
DIY Odor Neutralizing Machine. *step by step* - Grasscity.com Forums
I was thinking of making a few of those, one for the growroom, one for the attic and one for the mothers (mothers will be in a different room). 
I've never heard of this stuff, an was wondering if i'd i be wasting my time?
Or do you think they'd work?


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## grandpabear3 (Oct 21, 2008)

hi al......long time-ish

off topic i know, but i gotta say you really let one of the crazies slip thru the cracks and get past the screening process at fuct industries. that damn sparkafire is just running around all willy nilly reaking havoc and shittin on peoples porches. please be more responsible in the future with handing out honorary skewl of fuct diploma's. this guys dangerous. and he's mean to boot.....not shity sarcastic like us grown folks.....more cantankerous, ya know???


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## sparkafire (Oct 21, 2008)

Ahhhh Sorry Al I think someone might have snapped under pressure...... Sorry about that.


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## paperfetti (Oct 22, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I did miss it, sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like heat damage. You're looking for 24-26C (75.2-78.8F). You have a peak-memory recording thermometer, don't you? What has the temp range been at plant level? What kind of light is over this plant and how close is it to the leaves?




COME ON AL,
what are u doing to me here?..what the hell is a peak memory thermometer??..i have a hygrometer if thats that then yes,but temps usually are around 78-83f humidity is around 60-65%..and the lights are multi spec cfl's (yes i know how much the pros hate these) and i have the light like a inch away from plants..i forgot to mention that,when i changed water i thought it was rather warm than normal and i got nervous and put a few ice cubes in res to sorta cool the temps.please dont tell me a disaster story,please tell me this is fixable thanx for everything


----------



## GypsyBush (Oct 22, 2008)

Hey Al...

I just wanted to take a moment and *Thank You...!!!

*You and your threads have been a source of inspiration and knowledge...

With your help... and the help of RIU... and a little bit of luck with the post orifice... I am very close to finishing my grow tent...

Your advice on the HIDs was invaluable, and the ability to have a *600 watt HPS 10 inches from my plants is IRREPLACEABLE...**
 
*Pretty soon a new batch of clones will be moving in, and I am already jumping in joy...

Much Respect and Many Thanks...!!!

Gypsy...






​


----------



## doktorgreenthumb420 (Oct 22, 2008)

thanks Al for the info i will change bulb to hps and use koolbloom like week 5 ...here is a pic of one of those clones i tried of that problematic ppp mother plant anyway ty for advice and i will be instituting RW back into the system


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## doktorgreenthumb420 (Oct 22, 2008)

hey paperfetti a peak memory thermometer is a thermometer that will record the maximum and minimum temps a room ever gets so it lets you know how cold iit got at its coldest point of night (lights off time) and how hot during the hot part of day (lights on time)

sorry had to answer that one hope i wasnt out of place Al tell me if i was hehe 

much respect 

doktorgreenthumb420


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## paperfetti (Oct 22, 2008)

Gypsy...





YO GYPSY ARE THOSE AIR DUCTS CONNECTED TO YOUR COOL TUBE ON BOTH ENDS?




​


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## paperfetti (Oct 22, 2008)

Well i guess i dont have that..just a basic hygroneter..definately dont think answering a simple question like that for a noob wasnt out of place..did u see al's setup??..i know he enjoys helping us out in all,but cmon..whats a peak memory whatever?..noob shit lol
thanx for helping out friend


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## paperfetti (Oct 22, 2008)

Is ppp a difficult starin or something??..why problematic?
AND HOW DOES IT SMOKE?


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 22, 2008)

doktorgreenthumb420 said:


> thanks Al for the info i will change bulb to hps and use koolbloom like week 5 ...here is a pic of one of those clones i tried of that problematic ppp mother plant anyway ty for advice and i will be instituting RW back into the system


All I can tell from that picture is that you dont clean your fingernails very well...


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## GypsyBush (Oct 22, 2008)

paperfetti said:


> YO GYPSY ARE THOSE AIR DUCTS CONNECTED TO YOUR COOL TUBE ON BOTH ENDS?


Yup! they sure are.... I put an "S" turn inside to accommodate changes in height...


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 22, 2008)

Update...

The plant in cube "C" is drooping, and the plant in cube "D" one of the new leaves tip is starting to turn yellow... My weed baron days are numbered 


Temperature may be too high and I am trying to lower it but the humidity is suffering. One thermometer says I am at about 84 degrees another says 85-86 (30C). They may have been overwatered since I had the cubes to 30grams a few times and they drop about 4-5 grams/12 hours. Humidity is dropping to between 25 & 40 to lower the temps.







I decided to feed them some light nutes and back off on the watering a little bit. Mixed 1ml/L Canna nutes + 1.5ml/L H202 and dipped them to weigh between 19-22grams this morning.


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## Return of the Spork (Oct 22, 2008)

Clones again...


Bout half have normally green leaves and are slightly hunched over but nothing I'm worried about.

Other half just have very little rigidity and the leaves are dark green and hunched over and very limp. I don't see how it could be overwatering though because I'm not misting and the cubes are definitely not wet.

Or should I be misting? Just want to know if there is something critical I should be doing to save them? I am fine waiting it out if that is the best course of action.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 22, 2008)

NLXSK1 said:


> When do you recommend I start feeding them nutrients and when do you think I should lower the lighting for them? The lights are 3 42W(150) CFL's at about 7-8" currently.


 You can start them on weak nutes (400ppm) now. Let them make their 2nd set of true leaves before dropping the light, hold it to about 12"/300mm until they make their 2nd set of leaves.



DoobyDoo said:


> is this thing toast?


 It probably won't yield well because most of the leaves are cooked. 

Flowering additives are used in hydro systems in wk5 of flowering, only. You're using soil; there could be other nutes in there that you may or may not be aware of that helped you cook them. 

As a general rule, 'more' isn't better when growing plants. 



BigBudBalls said:


> For the mark up they charge, yes they can/must do a good job.


 No doubt. They want me to take them imperfect and I'm having none of it. I had to do another 100km round trip to the shop yesterday on their advice that the work was done- it wasn't. Now, I'm annoyed. _*And*_ I'm wearing 3 year old spex while my 2007 pair is fitted with reading lenses. I won't be on RIU much until I can get some proper spex.



fitzyno1 said:


> I was wondering if you have ever heard of anyone using an Odor Neutralizing Agent (ONA) and some absorbing crystals (Soil Moist), in a bucket and fan?


 Counter-scent agents don't generally work well. Moreover, their scents can be a giveaway all on their own. O3 & carbon filters leave zero scent. 



bugsrnme said:


> hi al......long time-ish
> 
> off topic i know, but i gotta say you really let one of the crazies slip thru the cracks and get past the screening process at fuct industries. that damn sparkafire is just running around all willy nilly reaking havoc and shittin on peoples porches. please be more responsible in the future with handing out honorary skewl of fuct diploma's. this guys dangerous. and he's mean to boot.....not shity sarcastic like us grown folks.....more cantankerous, ya know???


 Well hell, when a Fuct Industries licence looks like this...







...it's not surprising that the licensees are getting all shitty. 




paperfetti said:


> COME ON AL,
> what are u doing to me here?..


giving you your money's worth. 


> what the hell is a peak memory thermometer??..


A thermometer that remebers the high & low temp extremes.


> i have a hygrometer if thats that then yes,but temps usually are around 78-83f humidity is around 60-65%..


Without a peak mem thermometer, you don't know how hot it's getting. You said in another thread that your temps were touching 86F and you 'knew that was OK.' It ain't.


> and the lights are multi spec cfl's (yes i know how much the pros hate these) and i have the light like a inch away from plants.


CFLs make heat, too. If your air temp is wandering up to 86F, you can induce heat damage with CFLs.



GypsyBush said:


> Hey Al...
> 
> I just wanted to take a moment and *Thank You...!!!
> *


 You're welcome. Looking good so far. 



NLXSK1 said:


> I decided to feed them some light nutes and back off on the watering a little bit. Mixed 1ml/L Canna nutes + 1.5ml/L H202 and dipped them to weigh between 19-22grams this morning.


Now that your beans have sprouted, drop the temp to 26C max (78.8F). 

Good call on backing off on the watering. 



Return of the Spork said:


> Clones again...
> Bout half have normally green leaves and are slightly hunched over but nothing I'm worried about.
> 
> Other half just have very little rigidity and the leaves are dark green and hunched over and very limp. I don't see how it could be overwatering though because I'm not misting and the cubes are definitely not wet.
> ...


Pull the limp ones out of the cube, look at the stem tips. If they are shrinking, brown or squishy, cut off the dead tissue and plug them back in the cubes. If you have stem tip rot, you're watering too much for the evaporation rate of your clonebox. 

And with that, I'm outta here for a few days until I can get some proper spex. I just can't use the computer on these old ones.


----------



## BigBudBalls (Oct 22, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Now, I'm annoyed. _*And*_ I'm wearing 3 year old spex while my 2007 pair is fitted with reading lenses. I won't be on RIU much until I can get some proper spex.


We can increase our font size in the mean time grandpa!


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 22, 2008)

BigBudBalls said:


> We can increase our font size in the mean time grandpa!


Why dont you just lend him yours BBB?


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## BigBudBalls (Oct 22, 2008)

NLXSK1 said:


> Why dont you just lend him yours BBB?


He'd only have a monocle then. His vision is twice as bad as mine. 

(oh shit. just got that. lol)


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## paperfetti (Oct 22, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> Yup! they sure are.... I put an "S" turn inside to accommodate changes in height...


 "s" turn inside what.remember i know nothing


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## paperfetti (Oct 22, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> giving you your money's worth.  A thermometer that remebers the high & low temp extremes. Without a peak mem thermometer, you don't know how hot it's getting. You said in another thread that your temps were touching 86F and you 'knew that was OK.' It ain't. CFLs make heat, too. If your air temp is wandering up to 86F, you can induce heat damage with CFLs.


 yes my meter does record temps high/low..i still cant figure out what happend with 1 plant looking like beige paint was splashed on it..i flushed system and put fresh ph'd water in ther today..leaves are feeling alot better than before so im hoping things are turning around


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## doktorgreenthumb420 (Oct 22, 2008)

hey paperfetti ppp is Pure power plant from nirvana and i have not had trouble with it before until this plant it wasnt the plant tho ppp is very nice smoke and grows excellent with Sog i really recommend it i have tried about 9 or nirvanas seed types and my favorits would have to be 

1. K-2 
2. ppp
3. big bud 
4. white widow 

those are bomb ass strains and k-2, ppp, and white widow are all very strong smokes 
they have a nice high i am still playin with big bud i like it cause it is very healthy and resilient plant ....also i had a Northern lights from nirvana and i grew it with soil and hydro lol i thought maybe it would have burned it but it was just right and seriously to date has been the most i ever got off a plant 2 oz of it and it was premium smoke also that northern lights strain smells like a friggin rose until it is chopped down and cured then the smell all of a sudden comes on and it has great smell after cured very nose catching stuff ...i only got one of the 10 to be female and live but it did that 2 oz thing ...so i cant really say much about it cause i dont have a couple grows of that under my belt 

if you want a nice producer for sog i say ppp is very nice choice 
if you want a nice little christmas tree type plant i say get k-2 
and if you want a no smell plant get Northern lights 

i have high hopes for northern lights tho and it might start being a staple strain around my grow here is a pic of my bloom room if you interested 

oh and i found out that my water is really bad quality and i will have more info on aerocloning the ppp once i try distilled water instead of water out of sink

overall ppp is one of my favorites 

also tryed snow white , from nirvana it is very nice and can produce alot of weight but it does take a good week or two longer to bloom which is not acceptable for my setup 

also that is a cool little grow box you made hmm i will show setup on next reply i forgot i was doing the post quick reply thing and i dont know how to put a pic on this way


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## doktorgreenthumb420 (Oct 22, 2008)

these are my pics of bloom room and some mother plants


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## paperfetti (Oct 23, 2008)

well now im stoked i got PPP fem. man -o- man...havent heard to many good thing about nirvana's jock horror,but ever had shiva?..i got that too crossed with nothern..i hope its good..my next order (which will probably be a xmas present to me) will be attitude..heard excellent things bout those dudes but thanx for the info


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## MrHowardMarks (Oct 23, 2008)

Doubt Al B. will see this, I might just PM you.

We were talking about the pH truncheon from bluelab about a month or so ago, I think it hadn't come out yet.

Anyway, I was searching for an electrode replacement and found that the PH truncheon is out and available. Just a heads up.


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## deerslayer (Oct 23, 2008)

Can you answer this one Mr. ABF

When taking clones to determine the sex of a new strain that was put down, two of the four started bleeding purple sap, the other two had normal looking clear colored sap. All four get the same nute mix and are the same age. There was two clones taken from each plant to use for determining sex.

Have you ever seen purple colored sap?
Even if you have never seen it do you know what causes it?
Is it a good, bad, or indifferent thing to see/have?


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 23, 2008)

deerslayer said:


> Can you answer this one Mr. ABF
> 
> When taking clones to determine the sex of a new strain that was put down, two of the four started bleeding purple sap, the other two had normal looking clear colored sap. All four get the same nute mix and are the same age. There was two clones taken from each plant to use for determining sex.
> 
> ...


Could you tell us the nutes you are using along with any additives?


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## MrHowardMarks (Oct 23, 2008)

Purple sap, never seen it.

Al B. I know you can answer me this one easily-

Where do you get your replacement electrodes for your Eutech pH pro series 2?

I've been searching, and can't find on in the states, my hydro store said they'd sell me their used on for 65 bucks I told them they're crazy, it's like 35 bucks if I can find it. I ran a search and I think you and me are the only ones that use the Eutech meter. Thanks.


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## GypsyBush (Oct 23, 2008)

paperfetti said:


> YO GYPSY ARE THOSE AIR DUCTS CONNECTED TO YOUR COOL TUBE ON BOTH ENDS?





GypsyBush said:


> Yup! they sure are.... I put an "S" turn inside to accommodate changes in height...





paperfetti said:


> "s" turn inside what.remember i know nothing


I just mean that as the ducting enters the tent (horizontal), it turns sharply 90 degrees down (vertical) and then makes another 90 degree turn into the cool tube (horizontal again)...

The shape created by the consecutive turns is commonly referred to as an "S Turn"... and since it all happens inside of the tent.... an "S" turn inside... it seemed logical when I wrote it... sorry...

Hope this helps...

Cheers...

Gypsy...

















​


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## Return of the Spork (Oct 23, 2008)

Is that a 4 inch hooked to a 6 inch tube? How well does it work? And do you prefer the solid ducting over the more flexible kind? Id imagine it would have a lower coefficient of resistance but I was worried it wouldn't fit well when the light got raised in my setup.


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## GypsyBush (Oct 23, 2008)

I am starting to feel uneasy answering questions in Al's thread...

I hope he doesn't get mad at me...



Return of the Spork said:


> Is that a 4 inch hooked to a 6 inch tube?


Yup 6" cool tube with an adapter to the 4" duct...



Return of the Spork said:


> How well does it work?


With a 170 CFM fan, I can have 600 watts 10" from my babies, without heat issues...

With the tent fully closed, high temp at "plant top" level has been 78F... and I don't even have the right exhaust fan in yet.... 265 CFM will replace the 80CFM exhaust in a few days...



Return of the Spork said:


> And do you prefer the solid ducting over the more flexible kind?


It is not solid, it is semi-rigid... it still stretches and bends like the "foil" type ducting... just not quite like a slinky...lol...

I chose it because it will hold it's shape, as opposed to drooping between support points..



Return of the Spork said:


> Id imagine it would have a lower coefficient of resistance but I was worried it wouldn't fit well when the light got raised in my setup.


Don't know your set up, but if you can use the thin foil/spring type ducting, you can use this stuff... takes no more room... maybe a slightly bigger 180 deggree turn radius... but no diff. on 90* turns...

Hope this helps...

Gypsy...

Ps. I hope you guys know that I am just a newb... asking me questions is a very tricky thing... as I don't know very much about anything at all... so... uh ... Al.. set them straight, will ya.... lol....

Sorry Al.... no disrespect intended... you can have your thread back...lol....


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## GypsyBush (Oct 23, 2008)

GypsyBush said:


> It is not solid, it is semi-rigid... it still stretches and bends like the "foil" type ducting... just not quite like a slinky...lol...
> 
> I chose it because it will hold it's shape, as opposed to drooping between support points..


and this is what I meant by no drooping...

I can even make a "snorkel" to gather AC air....

Cheers...





​


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## paperfetti (Oct 23, 2008)

damn i want mines exactly like that..can u tell me what u have as far as the parts connected to tube,so i know what to ask for when i go to home depot..like a list i can write down..if too much i understand...i took cuttings from a plant i had outside and tried to put 600 watt hps in a homebox S (yes "s" meaning small lol)and it was on fire in there..i dont have ducts running like you do,so i know i could have gotten it cooler,but it didnt seem like i was going to be able to get it where i need it to be do to box being so small..so needless to say my cuttings died and this is all i have left..pic 2 is where the hps will be once i switch plants that are in bubbler to 12/12..which will be hopefully in a week..but i dont know what to do with plant that was outside getting cold in the meantime
thanx a milli


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## paperfetti (Oct 23, 2008)

sorry pics here


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## GypsyBush (Oct 23, 2008)

paperfetti said:


> damn i want mines exactly like that..


All right man.. but I am kicking us out of here...

Come over to my thread... I'll help all I can over there... this is not the place...

The tent build starts on page 21... here... click on the red square... the one next to my name...

Cheers..



GypsyBush said:


> ... I wanted to order a Grow Tent but the cash was a little short...


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## deerslayer (Oct 23, 2008)

NLXSK1 said:


> Could you tell us the nutes you are using along with any additives?


3 part GH with 35% H2O2 thats it.
I dont think that has anything to do with it, because these two were the only two that have ever done it.


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## SpruceZeus (Oct 23, 2008)

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/122962-ufo-led-hps-250w.html
Dear uncle Al, please take a moment out of your busy day to read this thread and school the LED junkies within as to the ineffective and unproven nature of LEDs. If you could find the time it would be greatly appreciated, it seems i am not successful enough of an HID grower to make the point and i was hoping someone with a bit of clout could step in and set these xmas tree light gardeners straight.
Thanks bundles!
-SpruceZeus


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## toast master (Oct 23, 2008)

Hey Al .... havent had the time to stop in and b.s. a little , had to take some out of town work to stay on top of things... if there is such a thing ... 
Had to figure a way to automate my clone watering and h202 dosing... been running on its own for 3 weeks now ... i get a chance ill pop out some info on it .. got it done for about $ 20 ea.... works well andno more daily hand watering clones .... hope all is well with you ... talk soon..


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## NLXSK1 (Oct 23, 2008)

SpruceZeus said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/122962-ufo-led-hps-250w.html
> Dear uncle Al, please take a moment out of your busy day to read this thread and school the LED junkies within as to the ineffective and unproven nature of LEDs. If you could find the time it would be greatly appreciated, it seems i am not successful enough of an HID grower to make the point and i was hoping someone with a bit of clout could step in and set these xmas tree light gardeners straight.
> Thanks bundles!
> -SpruceZeus


LOL!!!

I am sure Al is busy growing dope


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## DoobyDoo (Oct 23, 2008)

Al:

Hope you got the specs situation all sorted out. My plants seem to be doing OK... or at least, not getting worse. Hopefully that'll save you some keystrokes


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## GypsyBush (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey Al...

Things are going well with the new tent...

I was surprised to see the air temp at the cool tube's exhaust... it's been blowing consistently at 62F... AFTER the light...

 Would you see anything wrong with just plumbing the 62F light's exhaust back into the bottom of the tent as my intake blower...? 

would that be an adequate match for the 265 CFM exhaust cage fan to be installed in a few days...? 

With this configuration, and the tent fully closed... and the light 10" from the plants... the high temp for the day was...78.6F... not bad eh?!

Thanks again...


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## iloveit (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey AL,
Should'a gone to spec-savers get it...yes...no? (thats funny only if you have the advertisement airing in your city).
Anyway what about contact lenses or laser eye surgery a friend of mine got it done & highly recommends it.


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## MrHowardMarks (Oct 24, 2008)

Where can I order a replacement electrode for my Eutech pH pro series 2?

Al?

Anyone?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 24, 2008)

> [SIZE=+1]"The time has come," the Walrus said,
> "To talk of many things:
> Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
> Of cabbages--and kings--
> ...


Dear ladies and gents, I've been commenting and advising folks on growing their own cannabis via discussion forums since 1994, including 6 years (1999-2005) as a mentor on the now defunct but legendary Overgrow.com. 

Not only is 14 years quite enough time spent on that voluntary pursuit, I have, unbeknownst to you, concurrently been a widely published albeit freelance and usually unpaid writer on several other topics including civil liberties, cyber-liberties, social justice and related matters. 

Thanks very much to all the readers of cannabis boards who have been appreciative of my efforts over the years, but it's time to move on. 

After many years of pounding away at it on my own, I've been finally been offered a paying gig as an editor for an advocacy group's website. Clearly, I can't tell you about the outfit which has hired me, for plain and obvious reasons. This work will consume all the time I have to date been available to comment on helping individuals with their cannabis grows. 

I have unsubscribed from all RIU threads and this one will be closed in a day or so. I have confidence that the basic concepts I have been covering for some time here on RIU have been understood and practised by quite a number of folks and will be carried forth.

I wish you all the very best of luck, the very best of yields and hope that you will take the fight to re-legalise cannabis to the op-ed pages and legislators who perpetuate this oppression, which has bases only in political dogma, not science or commonsense. You _*will*_ win if you just keep hammering, but I've hammered enough in this format. I will continue to fight this good fight, but just not here. 

Keep your lights bright.

Cheers,

-Al B.


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## NewGrowth (Oct 24, 2008)

Cool Al moving on to bigger and better things . . .Good for you man, thats what happens when you are free you just let the wind blow you. Much love to Al left lots of knowledge for us all to refer back to!


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## GypsyBush (Oct 24, 2008)

Best wishes of Love and Joy...

I will remember you forever...

Thanks you for your help... and laughs...

Be Well...

Gypsy...


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## sparkafire (Oct 24, 2008)

Brother Al 

THANK YOU SO MUCH!! Your one of those special type of people and you will be missed greatly. Good luck with all you do, I wish you well.  



SParky


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